Workstation motherboard and processors supporting ECC server memory? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: splin
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2019, 10:26:11 pm
content: I've been offered 4 x 16GB PC3L registered ECC RDIMMs. I currently have an i7-3770K with 32G non ECC DDR3. I would much prefer to have ECC memory for the extra reassurance and 64G would be nice. So are there any workstation or desktop motherboards that would support it and *not*:a) Cost an arm and a leg (after selling my existing MB/CPU/memory)b) Be a big step back in performance - especially for single thread apps.c) Consume a significantly more power - I selected the current components for low power, especially at idle.Older XEONs are presumably an option but I've no idea how much one would cost with a suitable desktop MB assuming they were available but I would be concerned about the power consumption and the performance hit from the Meltdown and Spectre patches.I've no idea what the AMD equivalents would be - I know power consumption was a problem prior to Ryzen (DDR4 only?) but AMD desktop processors used to support ECC although not all MBs did.Should I just forget the idea and upgrade in a year or so to the latest and greatest? I don't play games much but do use LTSpice which I believe still doesn't use multi-cores. PC3L is DDR3 memory so not suitable for current processors - I'd have to buy a CPU and MB second hand.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 02, 2019, 10:29:51 pm
content: Look atSupermicroboards. They are very well priced, rock solid and reliable. Many of their boards support both ECC and non-ECC memory.

author: andersm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2019, 11:20:20 pm
content: All AMD Ryzen-based CPUs support ECC, but you need a motherboard that supports it.

author: splin
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2019, 11:23:31 pm
content: Quote from: andersm on October 02, 2019, 11:20:20 pmBut Ryzen don't support DDR3 do they? Sorry, I didn't make it clear in my original post that the memory I've been offered is DDR3L (IE. PC3L)

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 02, 2019, 11:25:40 pm
content: Quote from: andersm on October 02, 2019, 11:20:20 pmThose with iGPU (APU) do not though.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 02, 2019, 11:28:31 pm
content: Quote from: splin on October 02, 2019, 11:23:31 pmRDIMM will only work with server CPU/motherboard. It's not the same as ECC. Just get rid of it, RAM prices are down and selecting system based on availability of outdated RAM is not worth it IMHO.

author: DimitriP
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2019, 11:56:53 pm
content: QuoteSometimes the right answer is both simple and easy to do

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 03, 2019, 12:25:50 am
content: Quote from: splin on October 02, 2019, 10:26:11 pmif its me (if higher RAM size is only matters) i will just stick to your existing setup. if non-ECC works, there is no good reason to upgrade to ECC, unless you are planning to move to himalaya top where cosmis ray is at maximum (in which your non-ECC parity checking RAM will deal just fine anyway). remember you are going to buy almost a complete computer workstation just for this, Mobo and suporting cpu psu etc. and its just twice the ram size upgrade, if any single application can use up all the 32G ram, then something is wrong imho...Quote from: splin on October 02, 2019, 10:26:11 pmif you run many applications at once like a server does, which requires many cores and ram size, then it maybe worth upgrading, but new system that has to satisfy your (b) and (c) will break (a), if you buy older xeon, it can fit (a) but breaks (b) and (c) so pick wisely. i recently purchased a used HP Z800, 2x Xeon X5675 3.07GHz, 24GB ECC DDR3 for $500 including cost of shipping of that boat anchor US to MY, and graphic card upgrade to $70 Radeon RX470. maximum this board can support is Xeon X5690 3.46GHz, so still slower than your i7-3770K, but 12 cores vs 4 cores is something else.so, as per my suggestion above, you should stick with your existing system if it works, theres not much you can gain from ECC RAM, only extra 32GB space (at a cost of the upgrade). so i will appreciate if you can offer me the 4 x 16GB ECC DDR3 at reasonable (kick ass) price, consider my professional advice freecheers.

author: oPossum
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 03, 2019, 01:57:47 am
content: You can get a cheap motherboard and Xeon X5600 series CPU, but you will not achieve (b) and (c). It is older, slower, and power hungry.

author: oPossum
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 03, 2019, 02:03:58 am
content: A few random examples...https://www.ebay.com/itm/123624416545https://www.ebay.com/itm/254376355540The PC3L modules would have to support 1.5V (most do) to work in a socket 1366 system, if they don't then you would need a socket 2011 system (newer, more expensive).

author: LeonR
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 03, 2019, 04:25:44 am
content: Some general explanations about server RAM:* Registered memory (RDIMM, LRDIMM) work on most server and workstation-class motherboards and they require a Xeon (or AMD equivalent) CPU;* Unbuffered ECC (UDIMM) is compatible with a broader range of parts;* Some motherboards total RAM capacity gets halved if UDIMMs are used;* You cannot mix UDIMMs and RDIMMs. Even if on a different CPU, channel etc;Watch out for chinese sellers of RDIMM sticks. They have the bad habit of rewriting the SPD with overclocks, making it unusable for any serious purpose.That Intel board oPossum posted is pretty nice. I have one with a couple X5670s. Just remember that those boards are designed to run on special chassis. If you're looking into using them on a standard desktop case you'll need:* An EATX case (watch out since there's quite a lot of them that have it on specs but aren't fully compliant to the 12x13 inches size). A good way to tell is checking if the case have four columns of spacers and at least eight PCI brackets. The boards are mostly compliant with SSI-EEB, so you'll need a couple plastic standoffs (the type that plunges into the motherboard but does not get the case)Examples of compatible cases: Corsair Graphite 760T, NZXT Switch 810, etc.* Proper cooling: Add as many fans you can to the case. I advise mounting a 40~70mm fan on the top of the IOH (chipset), since it gets toasty really quickly with no active cooling. As for the CPU coolers, look for models that work with the standard 1366 mounting backplate. Noctua makes some models that have a wide range of included brackets (1366/1356, 2011 narrow and 2011 square).

author: awallin
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 03, 2019, 04:29:39 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on October 02, 2019, 10:29:51 pmAgreed - but we've had some on order since July - and not yet delivered (October 2nd...)What's the experience with availability of SuperMicro servers in other parts of the EU or world?

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 03, 2019, 04:42:42 am
content: Quote from: awallin on October 03, 2019, 04:29:39 amDepends on the model but I haven't had any issues sourcing Supermicro gear in Australia. I have access to a few suppliers in Sydney who keep plenty in stock.

author: andersm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 03, 2019, 05:47:45 am
content: Quote from: Mechatrommer on October 03, 2019, 12:25:50 amOn my old Mac Pro, I one day noticed that one memory stick had gone bad and started reporting errors several months ago. However, all the errors had been recoverable, so as far as I'm aware no actual data corruption took place. It's another layer of safety, and IMO if you can afford it, it would be dumb not to get it. Filesystem data checksumming is all the rage nowadays, but even many of the loudest ZFS proponents seem happy to put blind faith in their data surviving the roundtrip to memory and back.

author: splin
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 03, 2019, 11:15:07 pm
content: Thanks for all your very helpful responses. Amazing how cheap those Xeon 5760s are on Ebay given they were $1000+ new.I will follow the advice to stick with my existing system for a bit longer - I couldn't stomach the power consumption, especially for a dual processor setup. The likelihood that I'd have to buy a new case puts the final nail in the idea. Xeon E3 1275/1280 looks to be the Xeon equivalent to my i7 3770K in speed and power consumption, but the problem is the motherboard. ASUS made some workstation ones (P8B WS, GA-X79S-UP5-WIFI) that support DDR3 ECC, but unbuffered only unfortunately.The Supermicro X9SRA looked like a possibility but they are listed at £400+ one Ebay and they are from China. No thanks!This is the longest I've ever gone without upgrading the processor and motherboard - the rate of single threaded performance improvement seems to have dropped remarkably from those heady days of the dirt cheap Pentium II Celerons which could be overclocked to 450MHz. Or the early Athlons. Not helped by the hit taken to deal with Spectre and Meltdown.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2019, 12:01:06 am
content: Quote from: splin on October 03, 2019, 11:15:07 pmlong ago, i've set my mind to upgrade when new processor come up with double the speed, ram affordable at double the capacity from what i already have. i once or twice upgraded (complete PC) since my first computer (circa 1996) but with my current quad core Q9400 2.66GHz system, its quite difficult to wait for consumer/affordable processor with double the speed (5GHz+) so i've stick with my system for about 10 years now, last time its like 2 or 3 years before the next upgrade. i only since, upgraded my current system to add a little bit ram to max 3GB what XP 32bit can support, add SSD and TB of HDD, replaced the damaged PSU twice, not really requiring large money, from time to time. but if i have to upgrade to new CPU, i have to buy new Mobo, ram, casing, etc the long words for what can be described as simply buying a new computer.recent post of a member here in a thread on $1000 PC for CADding lead me to that HP Z600/800 system, i thought yeah it fits my spec, more cores, more ram, 3X and 8X respectively from what i already have, and Xeon X5675 3.07GHz is a little bit faster than my current 2.66GHz system, not reaching 2X but nevermind it has more cores and ram. and since its used, the price also fit the bill, so i grabbed one. i think this Xeon workstation came from the same age as my quad core circa 10 years ago, but that time surely the HP Z800 will be very much unaffordable. now i got it at cheaper the cost from what i paid my current system, the only question is how long this branded name is going to last? my custom diy no name brand current system proved working for 10 yrs (with twice PSU replacement), by the right logic, brand name (HP) should at least twice that so theoritically i should have another 10 years with this Xeon, otherwise there is not much to brag about brand name PC system, as i've thought they should be for long time. this Xeon will prove me wrong or right. fwiw ymmv cheers.btw i lived the life with 3GB of RAM, so i cant imagine some individual will be crippled with 24/32/64GB of RAM, unless in top notch research/simulation environment or IT/server business.

author: chickenHeadKnob
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2019, 01:01:02 am
content: Quote from: splin on October 03, 2019, 11:15:07 pmI have always followed the policy of minimum investment in strongly depreciating assets like computer tech. during the days of active moore's law for my home machine.I would buy budget processors and maximize motherboard memory every 5-9 years (7 on average) and call it a day. I would only upgrade when I couldn't stand it any longer. These were home assembled component level machines with video that was selected for Linux compatibility, I'm not a gamer. This was a policy that worked well for me and saved me money that I put to appreciating assets like real estate and stocks.Now Moore's law has slowed dramatically, as you noted and I have finally shifted my strategy. Initially I also wanted a server/workstation type machine with large 256G ecc RAM for experiments with in RAM databases but have moderated this to a Ryzen 3700x or maybe 3900x and 64G non ecc RAM. My reasoning being that Ryzens with the fastest RAM seem to be the best value proposition. I have read that AMD single thread performance is more RAM speed dependent than intel hence ecc is contraindicated. For database experiments I may need to do for consulting I will simply rent cloud resources, no sense in keeping and paying for capacity I don't use continuously. What do the folks who keep up with what is latest and greatest think?

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 04, 2019, 01:48:12 am
content: Quote from: chickenHeadKnob on October 04, 2019, 01:01:02 amNobody prohibits overclocking ECC RAM which BTW I do. As a bonus you actually know that your RAM is stable when overclocked unlike with non-ECC RAM. If you go a bit too high with overclock, you can actually see that single bit errors were corrected, sometimes after several weeks of faultless operation. All those super fast modules are overclocked anyway, with JEDEC speed usually being measly 2133. Not to say using over 3600 MHz speed on Ryzen 3000 series is counterproductive anyway as CPU drops infinity fabric speed by half. As of actual performance concerned, going over 3200 MHz gives barely any performance increase.

author: LeonR
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2019, 06:16:37 pm
content: The most important difference between a desktop-class and a workstation/server class is reliability. The latter are supposed to run 24/7/365, while the desktop counterparts are designed for 8/5 loads.That aside, as others suggested, I see a Ryzen 3000 (8 core and up) overperfoming any LGA1366 dual socket system while consuming a fraction of the requires power. The only case why I'd choose a 1366 over the Ryzen would be if I had specific software that does not run on it. On the Ryzen you are technically limited to Windows 10 and recent Linux distros, while the 1366 can run everything from Windows 2003 Server up to 2019 (probably, have tested only with the desktop version), older Linux, etc.There's also LGA2011 systems (up to E5/E7 v2 Xeons) that are pretty affordable - more cores, higher maximum RAM, more PCIe lanes, etc. LGA2011-3 are still very expensive even on the used markets.