Binary watch, I decided to jump on the kickstarter bandwagon - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: williefleete
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2014, 12:53:49 am
content: I thought I would give this a go, I am probably underestimating the goal I've set and I'm pretty new to this but here is the link for my kickstarter projecthttps://www.kickstarter.com/projects/2077534955/binary-watchAny tips and feedback welcome, any pledges also welcome. This project will probably be classed as open source as I will make any design files available along with the code after the project is done.

author: Mr.B
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 05, 2014, 01:14:23 am
content: I don't want to come across negative, but at $25 per watch you will have great difficulty competing against something like this:http://www.ebay.com/itm/Red-Blue-LED-Binary-Black-White-Leather-Silicone-Band-Watch-889-Boy-Girl-Men-/181293915688?pt=Wristwatches&var=&hash=item2a35f59e28For only NZD 6.22 including shipping...Good luck anyway.

author: williefleete
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2014, 01:26:08 am
content: I think mine has a few extra features, seconds display, displays 24 hour, has an hourly alarm (a monophonic rendition of Westminster chimes (first 4 notes in low power mode) and bell counting the hour (12 hour form) no less) and main alarm, date with year and leap year calculation.

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2014, 01:29:08 am
content: Binary watches have been around for a while and the selection is huge:http://www.google.com/search?q=binary+watch&hl=en&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ

author: williefleete
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2014, 07:04:04 am
content: Quote from: miguelvp on August 05, 2014, 01:29:08 amso I guess I shouldn't be surprised if I don't get funded

author: hlokk
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2014, 09:11:31 am
content: Feels like you may need to do a bit more work before people are likely to be interested IMO. I don't see any watch concepts at all, or have any indication what the case may look like, whether you are able to design and manufacture a SMT board and assemble it. The prototype may work fine, but looks really messy and I wonder if the LED's are placeholders or intended to be used on the final project (those blue ones would annoy me).The key questions for any new project are pretty much "What is already out there, has this been done beore" "What does mine do that other don't" "Are these features desirable enough to account for a price differential" and "is there a sufficiently large market".For kickstarter, as a potential backer of a project I always want to know "is there a final concept of what it will look like" and "am I paying to get this manufactured, or am I paying for someone to play around with it and maybe deliver something I'll like" and of course "Does this person actually have much experience and understanding with actual manufacturing".Is there some reason you're not able to produce a wrist prototype first?(I hope this comes across as constructive not scathing!)

author: williefleete
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2014, 10:05:58 am
content: Quote from: hlokk on August 05, 2014, 09:11:31 amthe picture is a very early prototype hence the mess, sort of a proof of concept type thing that electrically works only with through hole parts and veroboard hence the jiffy box is a bit cramped, the LEDs are placeholders and would turn off after 2 minutes anyway to save batteryQuoteI dont have the facilities to produce custom casing or anything else for that matterthe early one does go on the wrist, however it is bulky, most of it (casing and unpopulated PCB) will probably be done elsewhere, and then assembledQuoteTBH noQuoteI have a reasonable idea of laying out PCB's (thank the EEVblog for that) it will be mostly non-critical stuff, maybe bypassing at most. however finding and using software that makes the appropriate files for the board house and manufacturing them will be another storyTL;DR im a complete noob

author: tjb1
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2014, 10:56:39 am
content: Big box of a watch...nice, another Kickstarter with nothing done and expects funding. There are many 3D printing services available now that could easily knock a case out and PCBs are almost free but from the way you speak, I am guessing you have not the faintest clue of how to design the case.

author: williefleete
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2014, 11:43:45 am
content: Quoteits called thefunctionalprototype, (relatively) big box with full size through hole parts in itQuotewhy do you think imtryingto get funded, I dont have the money to get s*** doneQuotegive us a link to the 3D printing service you speak of. if they'll do bulk, even betterQuotethats not very nice, are you offering to help design one for me then

author: sunnyhighway
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2014, 12:04:16 pm
content: The major problem is that this is a fashion product.I'm trying to make an analogy by describing the issue, using a jacket instead of a watch.It would have been something along the line of this:Description on Kickstarter: Jacket with buttons and pockets.Images shown on Kickstarter: Early prototype using a mailbag, two pockets and some buttons, nothing else.Would you buy it with that description and those pictures?I know I wouldn't.EDIT:Uhm, I guess this is not the best analogy.Apparently you CAN be successful with a mailbag as a jacket, if your name is Jan Taminiau.He managed to design a jacket just like that for queen Maxima.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 05, 2014, 12:21:53 pm
content: Quote from: williefleete on August 05, 2014, 11:43:45 amBefore 3D printers came along, this site and it's free CAD program were the ducks guts:http://www.emachineshop.com/It's still the easiest CAD I've ever used to create 3D models, and it exports STEP etc.Still great for machined parts.I'm a dunce at 3D CAD and I was able to do my uWatch cases no problem

author: williefleete
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2014, 12:45:59 pm
content: had a little play with sketchup, probably not the best but i'd like to make it to use standard watch straps

author: tjb1
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2014, 01:25:40 pm
content: Quote from: williefleete on August 05, 2014, 11:43:45 amThis is your project, not mine. They exist, find one. You would have much better luck going on to Kickstarter with a real prototype instead of everything stuffed into a box that is no where near what it will be when completed.You would use a 3D printed case as a prototype and then if you sell a large amount, you would injection mold the others.http://www.protolabs.com/

author: edavid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2014, 03:07:55 pm
content: There are some existing products out there, but as far as I can tell they are all crappy, so that shouldn't discourage you. You do need to explain why your watch will be better than a $5 eBay watch.However, as others have said, your presentation is terrible. You need clear photos of whatever you have, and clear explanations of what you have done and what you are doing. Forget the videos for now.Right at the top, you need to say how the display will work, what the case and strap will be made of, and how long the battery will last.

author: williefleete
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2014, 03:14:45 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on August 05, 2014, 03:10:47 pmI was expecting someone to say that

author: Rufus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2014, 03:34:59 pm
content: Quote from: miguelvp on August 05, 2014, 01:29:08 amAnd have you ever seen anyone wearing one of those pet rocks?

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2014, 04:02:55 pm
content: Quote from: Rufus on August 05, 2014, 03:34:59 pmYes, but I'm surrounded by geeks and nerds

author: pickle9000
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2014, 04:26:56 pm
content: Everyone tries to make beautiful stuff why not try something like this? Dip in clear epoxy for a case.http://www.adafruit.com/blog/2013/03/27/diy-binary-watch-wearablewednesday/

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2014, 05:39:58 pm
content: why a binary watch ? we have invented the 7447 and 7 segment displays a long time ago ( a 741247 even polishes the 6 and the 9 )..come to think of it. sod 7 segment display. use e-paper or e-ink displays. and make em color , and wifi and ble and build in a gsm and gps ! and and a fax !reminds me of a joke.Bill Gates, Larry ellison and Steve jobs were in a meeting room. all of a sudden gates starts talking to his watch. The others look at him bewildered.Gates explains : latest microsoft gizmo : watch with built in gsm.Some time later Jobs pits his index finger in his ear and just mumbles to himself.GSM . Speaker glued to his fingernail , microphone built in to a tooth filling.time passes and Ellison suddenly blows a loud fart.. Sorry guys, fax coming in....

author: pickle9000
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2014, 05:41:53 pm
content: Awesome joke!

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2014, 12:02:46 am
content: Seems world+dog do binary LED watches, and they all suffer the same problem as any other LED watch: the LEDs.Why not do something different (continent+cat do these) and make an LCD binary watch? Then you don't have to manually drain the battery to check the time - you can look at it and see what the time is without pressing anything. OK, add a small low power LED for night viewing, but otherwise it is less hassle and worry for the user.More pertinently, it cries out for crowdfunding, where the LED one doesn't, because you will need to source the LCD, and that is only going to be possible with a decent MOQ (which will be expensive for you to fund on your own).

author: williefleete
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2014, 01:21:45 am
content: Quote from: dunkemhigh on August 06, 2014, 12:02:46 amThat is an idea, can you get bar-graph style LCD modules (3x8 bar graph), either raw LCD or chip on glass / ribbon, with something similar to a shift register for data input eg data, clock, strobe type of thing

author: hlokk
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2014, 04:06:42 am
content: Quote from: williefleete on August 05, 2014, 11:43:45 amWell, not really as your kickstarter is for a watch and that is a clock. Being able to program up a binary clock program on a PIC is not that hard. We know you can do that part, but what about all the other parts. We have no idea if you know what you're doing at all for product design, manufacturing and supply at the minimum. How can you price it up when you don't know what the case will look like, what you'll make it from or how much it will look like?Quote from: williefleete on August 05, 2014, 11:43:45 amYou can't really expect kickstarter backers to fund a hobby project though. Kickstarter is for when you have a working project, know how to complete it and deliver it but need a large amount of cash in order to get the ball rolling on larger scale manufacturing (e.g. making injection molds). You're going to have to sink your own money into some development costs in order to prove you can do it.Quote from: williefleeteThen maybe this isn't the project for a kickstarterDon't get me wrong, it sounds like a cool little project, but its an amateur hobby project at the moment (which is awesome, I have lots going).

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2014, 09:03:12 am
content: QuoteDoubt it (at least, not in a suitable size or shape), but the point is that you would commission your own. Don't know what the MOQ is, but I think it can be surprisingly low.

author: williefleete
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2014, 12:26:12 pm
content: Because of the negativity I've been getting here I am going to can the project...It seems kickstarter is no place for my project

author: sacherjj
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2014, 01:38:52 pm
content: I'm not sure what the best low power MCU would be (MSP430?) but that with this might be something workable:https://www.adafruit.com/products/1393?gclid=CjwKEAjwpIefBRCuir7wy-f1kCwSJADXBi2a9FdADQHDDWuB9THiI1Wd9JTalB2yNwEjkWX0_jbC2RoCDHjw_wcBI would use USB to set time, charge, etc. Still hard to get a nice enclosure design, as a watch is a fairly tough product. Small, durable, reasonably water resistant, etc. One thing that you could do at home is low pressure injection molding. Work up the electronics and gasket off the screen. Then make mold blocks out of plastic. Then low pressure inject a silicon or epoxy. I've had to do that for a prototype and the time wasn't bad.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2014, 01:51:05 pm
content: Quote from: williefleete on August 06, 2014, 12:26:12 pmIt can be, provided you would at least show a working prototype IN A WATCH ENCLOSURE. Having a massive box full of wires and a 3d rendered drawing of a tiny little case is not a good idea for kickstarting.Make a nice pcb layout , build one, make little video , add sexy case around it, have that 3d printed , then we will talk. All i see on kickstarter is a sketchup drawing of an (ugly) case

author: DJohn
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2014, 02:43:30 pm
content: Quote from: williefleete on August 06, 2014, 12:26:12 pmDon't can it. Kickstarter might be the place for it, just not yet.Continue developing. Start a thread in the Projects forum to talk about it. Listen to the advice people give you. Ask for help with the things you can't do yourself. When you've got something that looks like a watch, and just needs a bit of polish and larger-scale manfacture, then you're ready for Kickstarter.If you genuinely can't afford to continue with it, you can still turn to Kickstarter. If you offer a finished product as a reward, people will want some assurance that you'll be able to deliver, and what you have so far doesn't offer that. But if you say "please give me money to develop this" and offer nothing but the warm fuzzy feeling of having helped someone, then you might find a few generous people.Or you can forget about the watch and just say "My amazing new device will produce infinite free energy, cure cancer, and win 13 gold medals at the 2015 Olympics". Make a flashy video and a few photoshop mock-ups, and watch the money pour in. That seems to be a popular option.

author: williefleete
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2014, 03:24:09 pm
content: Quote from: DJohn on August 06, 2014, 02:43:30 pmMeditate on this I will.You're a bit late on the canning, I've removed the project off the site. When I have a chance and a working design, (that appeases free_electron's tastes) I will probably start it up againAs the chunky prototype uses the PICAXE, and hence BASIC maybe getting a dev kit for a low power MCU and learning to program the thing might be in order, it will have to be reasonably sized for code and input outputs, support a RTC, finding a low power display eg a low res small size dot matrix backlit LCD (8x8?) might be a tall order, although mikes electric stuff mentions these little displayshttp://youtu.be/eAoC818Mxy4super low power and would act like a bit like the shift registers used in my chunky watch (don't need refreshing to hold an image)

author: tjb1
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2014, 03:52:50 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on August 06, 2014, 03:47:36 pmProbably the dumbest thing you have said yet.

author: williefleete
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2014, 09:54:06 am
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on August 07, 2014, 09:39:41 amwow.what a troll, arduino uses a variant of C, and you can program a blank chip with the bootloader unlike picaxe, i believe.

author: bwat
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2014, 10:43:15 am
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on August 07, 2014, 09:39:41 amOpinions based upon anything other than the satisfaction of a given specification are no more than mere technical prejudice. If it satisfies the specification then it doesn't really matter what language or hardware is being used.

author: Ribster
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2014, 11:22:32 am
content: Quote from: williefleete on August 07, 2014, 09:54:06 amI agree on the portion that what you show off, can't be based on a devkit concerning the hardware part.Software part, i don't give a rats ass.If you can't do the effort of designing, ordering and soldering up a couple of pcbs so you have a semi production version, well then don't bother.If the project is hardware based, imo a working prototype includes a self designed and fabbed board/hardware.Even if it is 3d printed, even if it is self-etched (that includes self-cnc'd etc..). You show that you understand the hardware process and can bring the project to a good end.

author: tjb1
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2014, 11:30:27 am
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on August 07, 2014, 09:39:41 amI don't throw my money at anything. I refuse to support anything on Kickstarter or Indiegogo anymore because they are now host to people who just grab and run.You talk about Arduino because it is a beginner tool in your electronic world but I would guess you are the same person that uses Sketchup or TinkerCAD without second thought. In my world, these are the beginner tools. I use Inventor Professional everyday for about 6 hours. I do not go looking at projects and sticking my nose in the air because others are using Sketchup, TinkerCAD or something similar.The only thing I care about is the end product and if it works how I would like, I could care less if they drew things on a piece of toilet paper or stuffed an entire Arduino UNO board inside their project.The problem with the Kickstarter the OP made is the prototype was not nearly far enough along, the project would not be well received and would likely not be funded at all. With all the projects on Kickstarter running off with the money, you need to present a more finished project and a project enclosure from radioshack is not anywhere near finished for a watch. Seeing as how big 3D printing is now, you could likely find someone in your area with their own printer to help you and print your first couple prototypes then use those for the Kickstarter. Places like Protolabs do cheap small run injection molding which would be useful for finished cases. Once you have a real prototype, stick that on Kickstarter and you'll likely be funded.

author: williefleete
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2014, 04:07:23 pm
content: Yea I underestimated some stuff thanks for pointing that out a million timesQuote from: mojo-chan on August 07, 2014, 03:24:52 pmWell you are kinda coming across as nasty to me

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2014, 10:01:14 am
content: If you want to take other people's money, you open yourself up to public criticism. Don't want it? Don't use kickstarter...

author: emusan
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: August 08, 2014, 10:01:24 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on August 08, 2014, 10:01:14 amThis ^And sort of along those lines, I really have to question the reason for putting this on kickstarter in the first place. In my mind you shouldn't really be creating a project on kickstarter just to "jump on the kickstarter bandwagon."If you have a neat product and you really think people will enjoy it then by all means go ahead and make one, but I think you should wait until your prototypes are a bit closer to final, or request a lot more money in order to invest in the R&D if necessary (if you can't afford it now, and you end up spending all the kickstarter money on building up the final version, there will be nothing left to build all of the backer watches, etc.)