Am I in trouble - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: MrOmnos
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2016, 09:43:54 am
content: My friend is a doctor. He met me today for a beer and we started talking about our work. In between conversations about his wife and the girl sitting next table he mentions to me about a high profile patient he had to attend today. Turns out his patient was a top CEO of a top company. He had a stroke and is on life support and will not last long. So, now I go on, sell my house, sell my car, sell my wife and buy as many shares of that company I can afford. Is this illegal? Will I get sued if someone finds out?

author: rs20
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2016, 09:53:35 am
content: Why would the death of a CEO cause an increase in stock price? That seems counter-intuitive to me.Anyway, what you describe qualifies asinsider trading, and as such would most likely be illegal, depending on what country you're in. Whether you'd get caught is a whole other question, but if you're ever asking the question "would I get caught", you're thinking about something illegal and immoral.

author: ^_^
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2016, 09:54:03 am
content: How much is the wife?

author: japasetelagoas
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2016, 10:09:22 am
content: Quote from: ^_^ on December 21, 2016, 09:54:03 amLOL

author: MrOmnos
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2016, 10:12:52 am
content: Quote from: ^_^ on December 21, 2016, 09:54:03 amfree if you agree to take the 7 kids with you.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 21, 2016, 10:20:04 am
content: Quote from: rs20 on December 21, 2016, 09:53:35 amI don't think so.The OP does not work for the company, does not know anyone who works for the company, and simply overheard some personal gossip from someone who also does not work for the company and is not (presumably) invested in the company either.About as non insider trading like as you can get I suspect.

author: CM800
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2016, 10:35:37 am
content: First of all, is the company actually stock trading?secondly, will the stock actually go up on passing? It could go either way... if the company was doing well under him, likely downwards.You might not be breaking any laws... but the doctor? If found out he told you something like that, and the company name... well he could loose his license, possibly his job, even a fine / jail time dependant on what confidentiallity agreements he has.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2016, 10:54:35 am
content: Quote from: MrOmnos on December 21, 2016, 09:43:54 amYour question doesn't make any sense at all. The CEO is just an employee of a company. CEO's get hired and fired all the time. Why would the loss of a CEO make or break a company? And why do you think the value would skyrocket if bad news was announced?

author: rs20
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2016, 11:00:33 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on December 21, 2016, 10:20:04 am"Insider trading is the trading of a public company's stock or other securities (such as bonds or stock options) by individuals with access to nonpublic information about the company."The definition does not hinge on "insider", it hinges on "nonpublic". Is the information about the CEO's condition nonpublic? I think so.But eh, I'm not a lawyer, just trying to interpret the definitions on the internet.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 21, 2016, 11:05:05 am
content: Quote from: rs20 on December 21, 2016, 11:00:33 amIf you want to go by Wikipedia you linked:QuoteThat's almost the same as the case here, except that the OP heard the information from someone who does not work for the company. So once removed again from a company source.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 21, 2016, 11:08:54 am
content: Quote from: IanB on December 21, 2016, 10:54:35 amAltium went from 10 cents to 10 dollars a share once the founder and CEO (who was very famously taking the company in crazy untenable directions) was bootedOk, it took a few years, but hey.

author: MrOmnos
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2016, 11:10:34 am
content: Quote from: rs20 on December 21, 2016, 11:00:33 amPanic I guess!

author: RGB255_0_0
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2016, 11:14:34 am
content: You wouldn't want to buy shares unless you think the company, under current leadership, is doing poorly and a change in CEO should help the embattled company.You should also question the reliability of the source. Maybe he's spreading a rumour for his own gain; hoping the people he tells the gossip will think and act like you, and then sell his stake.

author: iaeen
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2016, 11:21:01 am
content: Quite apart from the question of insider trading, there's the question of patient confidentiality.In the US, your doctor friend broke some very strict laws by telling what he did, and he would get into big trouble if it ever come to light. I'm not sure what the laws are elsewhere, but I wouldn't be surprised if other countries had similar rules.Also, the fact that this was a patient confidentiality violation might have bearing on whether this would be insider trading... I'm not a lawyer, but I think this situation sounds sketchy all around.

author: Wilksey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2016, 12:47:09 pm
content: Only if you publicly post your intentions on the interwebz...Technically with inside information, if it affects the prices to the point where you become very rich, very quick, you can get done for fraud, but I expect quite a lot of people already do and get away with it.Luck of the draw!She'll be right!

author: iaeen
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2016, 01:01:36 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on December 21, 2016, 11:05:05 amThat doesn't sound like "almost the same case" to me. In the example you have some random third party to a conversation. In the OP's situation you have someone with privileged information directly sharing the information. I doubt it matters that the doctor doesn't work for the company. He has professional access to private information, and the OP has a close connection to the doctor.Even if you are right, this is a grey area and would probably have to get dragged through the courts to be settled (assuming it got out). I doubt the OP wants to go there.

author: StuUK
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2016, 01:12:09 pm
content: Definitely NOT insider trading but the Dr is a naughty boy!!

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2016, 05:08:31 pm
content: Anybody remember the Marth Stewart case? I don't recall the exact details but I do remember that 'orange' was involved.If I thought there was anything to the rumor, I might buy (or sell) on momentum but I certainly wouldn't want to be the first one in or out.Losing a CEO can't be good for a company. If the CEO was truly worthless, the Board of Directors (of a publicly traded company) would probably have ousted him a long time back. That's their job as agents of the stockholders.I would tend to be thinking about shorting the stock.

author: kfnight
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2016, 05:33:08 pm
content: It is a mild case of insider trading, but the amount of shares you would be purchasing are so small nobody would care.

author: XFDDesign
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2016, 06:48:28 pm
content: "So, now I go on, sell my house, sell my car, sell my wife and buy as many shares of that company I can afford."I'm thinking people are missing the deliberate trolling.Selling a house isn't a one-hour affair, and unless he's in a particularly unstable region, I don't think he can 'sell' his wife either.

author: MrOmnos
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2016, 06:51:36 pm
content: Quote from: XFDDesign on December 21, 2016, 06:48:28 pmOf course this is not true but this not trolling as well. It is a hypothetical question to invoke discussion on this topic. You thought I sold my wife?

author: vodka
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2016, 08:08:53 pm
content: Quote from: ^_^ on December 21, 2016, 09:54:03 amLike a life imprisonment

author: Circlotron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2016, 09:25:33 pm
content: Quote from: rs20 on December 21, 2016, 09:53:35 amIf it was Dilbert's CEO and his underlings it probably would.

author: StillTrying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2016, 09:31:18 pm
content: Perhaps you could hedge your bets by blackmailing the doctor.

author: Red Squirrel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2016, 11:47:22 pm
content: This got me thinking... if you got in a time machine to go look at future stock prices and came back, is that insider trading?

author: Circlotron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2016, 12:07:01 am
content: ^^ You would affect the future stock prices by your purchase, creating a paradox that would unravel the fabric of the universe

author: Watth
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2016, 01:31:07 pm
content: Quote from: iaeen on December 21, 2016, 11:21:01 am^ This.Acting on illegally disclosed information. And you know it's illegal since it comes from a frigging doctor.

author: Dave
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2016, 01:44:49 pm
content: What kind of a shit doctor discusses his patients' states of health with his friends over beer?

author: BBBbbb
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 22, 2016, 02:08:36 pm
content: Quote from: Dave on December 22, 2016, 01:44:49 pmVast majority of them. Patient stories are common, this just happens to be a stock influencing one.

author: Watth
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2016, 03:32:18 pm
content: Quote from: BBBbbb on December 22, 2016, 02:08:36 pmDiscussing patients' health between doctors is a thing, but talking about someone's health -and identifying this someone- with a non-medical person is quite unethical.

author: Falcon69
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2016, 02:53:01 am
content: It violates the Doctor-Patient confidentiality. The patient can pursue legal matters against the doctor if he so chooses, and the doctor would be in danger of losing his license, at least that's the way it works in the US. Unless said person the doctor is discussing it with has an absolute interest in the health and welfare of the patient. i.e doctor talks to a surgeon about the patient and options about what to do for the patient, etc.I know with my grandmother, the doctor couldn't discuss anything with me unless i had guardianship or power of attorney over my grandmother, or unless she specifically was sound of mind and had said it was okay to discuss her medical information with me.There is one more thing, If a doctor believes the patient will do or has done personal injury to himself or to others, they can speak to authorities (non-doctors) about the medical information, i.e. person intends to or attempted to kill himself/herself or someone else.Other than that, they are NOT allowed to discuss a patient's medical history or status. But, like others have said, doctors break that rule ALL the time.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2016, 09:54:00 am
content: Sometimes, rather than relying on others to do the right thing, you have to act yourself.I've managed to report both yourself and the doctor involved, via number of online resources.I just hope they manage to trace who you both are, via IP addresses and other information. They can then throw the full weight of the law against you both.I've also reported your thread to the moderators. With a case, explaining why I think you should be immediately banned.One of the online reports I sent, gave a report back, which has some additional, worrying information about the OP.Here is a copy:https://cdn.meme.am/cache/instances/folder741/52063741.jpgN.B. I'm not joking about this. If I had been, I'd have said 'Only joking', in brackets, somewhere in this post. (Only joking).

author: TheDane
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2016, 10:20:38 am
content: Are you in trouble? - I don't know...But I do know that stocks are gambling, and if you're ready to burn your life (wife, investments, money, relations, etc.) - be ready to get burned yourself.So, you're in your shoes alone - and if it is worth getting a new pair (who preferably has a better fit), don't step on other peoples toes - and it's most likely you don't get threaded back on to.(Not the best advice, but then again - I don't know if you're in trouble. Most of the time it's the long hard road that pays, not the easy short cuts as most low life scammers are likely to go that way)Oh, btw - are you sure the doctor doesn't have stock already, and is ready to make buck on your back?

author: Assafl
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2016, 10:57:23 am
content: I don't think it matters. Martha Stewart did not work for the company she purchased stock in.Generally speaking, it is insider trading if it is based on information that isn't publically available and it is material.So if you buy a product and really like it, and have a generally favorable perception of the company - so you buy stock. Non-public information - but not material.Also, if the sales guy confides in you that "He is Having a Great Quarter" (and you believe him). Non-public - butusuallynot material either.But not if the VP of Sales confides in the same. The VP Sales knows how the quarter will end. Based on that you can buy or short a stock. That is both material and non-public. A gotcha is what if the sales person from the previous example is the only sales person the company's got? Is that insider? Yes - because it is both material and non-public.A CEO is dying and no-one knows? I'd think it is both non-public (obviously) and market reaction will make it material. Stock market computers will parse all transactions on the week leading up to the news and look at all the weird acquisitions and shorts (i.e. large, non standard, not as part of plans and/or funds...)...Whether you make the inquiry threshold depends on the amount of money it is and how much out of normal it is for you (i.e. if you regularly buy and sell your house, your car, your wife and the same stock you may be safe). If this is the only stock you ever buy/short...

author: tatus1969
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2016, 11:09:05 am
content: Quote from: MrOmnos on December 21, 2016, 09:43:54 amThe most scary thing for me is the information sharing itself. I heard once that there is something called medical secrecy?

author: Watth
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2016, 11:41:46 am
content: Quote from: TheDane on December 23, 2016, 10:20:38 amSo are you only joking about the statement that you are only joking?I'm confused.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2016, 11:45:11 am
content: Quote from: Watth on December 23, 2016, 11:41:46 amIf you are referring to my post. It wasALL, a complete joke!Sorry for any confusion.

author: TheDane
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2016, 02:36:13 pm
content: It seems I bring others in trouble, not knowing soNo, I'm not joking - but my native language is Danish, so I might not be able communicate 'correctly'.- but, people lie - and others don't always understand what is said and/or implied. That's a fact, I believe - and courts sometimes try to clear up.If you're not into gaming, don't play gamesQuote from: Watth on Yesterday at 10:41:46 PMQuote from: TheDane on Yesterday at 09:20:38 PMAre you in trouble? - I don't know...But I do know that stocks are gambling, and if you're ready to burn your life (wife, investments, money, relations, etc.) - be ready to get burned yourself.So, you're in your shoes alone - and if it is worth getting a new pair (who preferably has a better fit), don't step on other peoples toes - and it's most likely you don't get threaded back on to.(Not the best advice, but then again - I don't know if you're in trouble. Most of the time it's the long hard road that pays, not the easy short cuts as most low life scammers are likely to go that way)Oh, btw - are you sure the doctor doesn't have stock already, and is ready to make buck on your back?So are you only joking about the statement that you are only joking?I'm confused.If you are referring to my post. It was ALL, a complete joke!Sorry for any confusion.

author: Watth
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2016, 05:21:27 pm
content: Quote from: MK14 on December 23, 2016, 11:45:11 amI was so confused I quoted the wrong post. See what you've done?

author: rrinker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2016, 04:41:43 am
content: Much easier to get someone from the future to get you a sports almanac than try to manipulate the stock market. Playing the market will to some extend self-correct. Placing sports bets may alter the payoff odds but it won't change the winning team, or horse, or whatever.Make the right play and it all can turn in to a totally awesome flying train time machine (DeLoreans are ok, but the train is WAY more awesome - and has more room).

author: rs20
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2016, 09:03:40 am
content: Quote from: rrinker on December 24, 2016, 04:41:43 amAre you sure? I suspect the butterfly effect disagrees... (Of course, the idea of "getting stock prices from the future" falls into a similar quandry)

author: rrinker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2016, 06:55:23 pm
content: Can anyone be sure? Heck if it's really a multiverse, who's to say those results in that almanac are for our particular thread?

author: JacobPilsen
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2016, 08:23:35 pm
content: As Muad'Dib says: It is not only future stock prices, but absolute lack of surprise...

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 25, 2016, 06:46:27 pm
content: Quote from: JacobPilsen on December 24, 2016, 08:23:35 pmThou shall not make a machine in the image of a human mind.

author: JacobPilsen
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 25, 2016, 08:58:07 pm
content: No problem.IMHO People are insufficient to do such machine.BTW:Topic: Musk on artificial intelligence.

author: Tinkerer
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 25, 2016, 09:17:42 pm
content: A random person suddenly buying up some stock isnt going to tip anyone off that you may have known something, especially since you arnt likely buying up millions of $$ worth. Posting about it here however, would if they bother even to look.

author: tatus1969
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2016, 11:09:38 am
content: Quote from: JacobPilsen on December 25, 2016, 08:58:07 pmthat machine is already in the process of booting up (when i look around i'm not so sure if it hadn't already got too many stuck processes). let's hope that the vogons will be late this time...