Fire in UK apartment building supposedly caused by oldrefrigerator that exploded - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2017, 10:53:56 pm
content: Intersprersed within a bunch of other distressing news on the Grenfell Tower disaster in the UK was the statement by one of the survivors that the fire had been caused by an refrigerator that exploded.I have never heard of an refrigerator exploding. Since we've been talking about exploding power supplies and other "appliances" and since this has been in the news,does that sound like something that could happen orHmmm.. looks like itdoeshappen..https://www.google.com/search?q=refrigerator+explodedSo, I am guessing it must have been a big enough explosion to cause a window to blow out and flames to go out of the window of the apartment where they likely came into contact with the plastic and aluminium cladding that enclosed the building which appears to have been flammable.And that caused the fire to spread rapidly up the outside walls, the window frames were also plastic, not metal.The outside of the building is such a dark black. That implies an extremely greasy non-wood based flame to me.

author: Ash
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2017, 11:43:56 pm
content: I can't comment on the tragic UK apartment building fire, but I can certainly comment on fridges catching fire.This was a faulty design apparently, the defrost element some times actually iced up and was then pushed into the insulation of the fridge resulting in a bad day.It could have been much worse, but thankfully we were at home having breakfast at the time! I was able to extinguish it.When we were talking to the insurance company they said they were dealing with claims where the fridge fire resulting in the whole house going up. 30 minutes later and that would have been us too!Pleasemake sure you have a functioning fire extinguisher in easy reach in your houseand everyone knows how to use it! It also wouldn't hurt to check your local consumer protection group for recall notices on your major appliances..Ash.

author: timb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2017, 12:40:04 am
content: Quote from: Ash on June 19, 2017, 11:43:56 pmDamn man, you were lucky! Hmm, my parents have a bunch of fridges and freezers at their place, in a detached garage... Kind of makes me want to put Nest or other connected smoke alarm in their, just in case!

author: donotdespisethesnake
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2017, 09:37:15 am
content: I was wondering what the stats were, I found some onlinehttps://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/618561/infographic-fire-statistics-england-1516.pdf. Electrical stuff is the second leading cause of fires, but smoking is the biggest cause of fatalities. Cooking is a common cause of fires, but people are generally in attendance then, and injuries are relatively low.BTW, if you keep a fire extinguisher, make sure you clear a path to a fire exitfirst, only use it tackle a fire after you are sure you can exit safely. The typical fire extinguishers last a minute or two (the small ones barely a minute), so are not effective if fire has taken hold.Smoke inhalation is the biggest danger, fitting smoke alarms should be a priority. Other obvious points like keeping possible ignition source clear of combustible materials, could make the difference between a fire taking and you getting out safely.It appears that the initial source of fire at Grenfell Tower had been out out, but the fire had already spread to exterior cladding. It seems obvious, but wrapping a tall building in easily burnable material is insane. It's not hindsight either, there were numerous warnings and widespread concerns expressed. It seems these things only progress when the Complacency Cycle hits a high point and a disaster occurs.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2017, 10:06:23 am
content: The material is not what I'd describe as 'easily burnable'.. But given the right circumstances, it will carry a flame.

author: stj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2017, 12:06:43 pm
content: i wouldnt believe *anything* right now.there is huge amounts of disinfo being released from all directions.probably to reduce the chance of any kind of prosecutions.the public coverup / enquiry instantly announced is a good example.under the law, you cant have a public investigation and a criminal one at the same time.so the government has just stalled any real investigation - potentially for years.tony blair pulled this trick to keep himself out of court for bombing iraq.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2017, 12:25:46 pm
content: They tried to say the cladding was banned in the UK but according to the New York Times, they were lying.It IS banned for tall building use in the US and many other countries because of previous fires.The UK has seemed to be going through a bad time now for a while, maybe since Thatcher. Similar in the US since Reagan. We both are like comic parodies of countries.These claddings have been used to improve the insulation of a great many buildings without any major work needing to be done on them but they make too extensive use of plastics to be safe. and "Aluminum" (I like the way Dave says it) burns as well if it gets hot enough.Nasty, nasty nasty flammable metals.. This all reminds me of 911. One note, it turns out after the 911 attack/fires that the smoke from that extremely hot and dirty fire had been so very toxic because of creation of exotic carbon nanotubes within the blaze. So survivors now are struggling with conditions similar to mesothelioma. I really hope that that did not happen in the UK fire but from what I know about the process of creating nanomaterials (often from waste likeplastic bagsand tires) it seems quite possible. Here is aseries of photos of a recently redone apartment in the building. Stainless steel can catalyze the reaction which has to have high temperatures and very low oxygen to be safe.Before too much time goes by people should attempt to test the ash. Carbon nanotubes are one of the strongest fibers known to man, and can be uniquely useful but also if released into the environment they pose huge dangers.If there are CNTs in there they need to perform some serious decontamination of the area, as they would with asbestos except CNTs are far worse for health, more dangerous even than asbestos. This is because they can act as "adjuvants" to the immune system causing it to imprint, in a negative way, forever, on whatever is there at the same time. (again this in some situations can be commercially useful, for example, in getting drugs and cancer fighting chemicals through the blood brain barrier by simple nasal delivery) BUT a dirty environment with CNTs in it could, like the 9-11 dust cause immune system problems for the rest of the lives of people exposed to the dust through inhalation. Words don't convey the gravitas of the situation if there are CNTs in that dust. If thats the case they really should cordon off the entire area and begin decontamination as they would with asbestos. They cant let it become airborne. They should use misting and wiping off of all exposed surfaces and put the dust into a hazardous waste landfill. To remove it from the environment.See"Lung Disease in World Trade Center Responders Exposed to Dust and Smoke: Carbon Nanotubes Found in the Lungs of World Trade Center Patients and Dust Samples" Environmental Health Perspectives 118(4):499-504 · April 2010See ETH's Nowack, et-al for his and his colleagues comprehensive exploration of the problems caused by unintentional release of engineered nanomaterials into the environment, (ENMs)CNTs are likely the most dangerous ENMs because of their strength and high aspect ratio..There is a very logical system which was developed at the national labs for sensible handling of ENMs, I forget its name. I will do some digging on this.Another concern with burning plastics is the liberation of known "endocrine disrupting" chemicals which can cause a plethora of problems like reproductive issues, cancers and sterility and various other issues like abnormal sex organ development and trans-generational morbid obesity. These manyextremely costlyhealth problems are a serious public health issue that already consumes several percent of the entire EU and US GNPs and its growing as we enter unprecedented levels of contamination. EDCs are even found in the far Arctic.This PLASTICS problem (with burning modern buildings) was discovered in the US but kept quiet because it removed the possibility that a nuclear war could be survived with any semblance of normalcy, the fact is, even apart from radiation, the contamination would be so horrible that society would be burdened with such a task it would be unable to continue as before. Agriculture in particular could become problematic in large parts of the planet due to this contamination of the soil. This issue is one of the core plot elements in Margaret Atwood's : "The Handmaids Tale" which is in part about problems posed to continued human existence by large scale contamination of the US with EDCs after a nuclear war.As useful as plastics are we've allowed them into our homes in amounts so large that they have changed the way they burn profoundly. Its too much. Before we have a city go up in flames, anywhere, we need to reduce the plastics.

author: stj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2017, 01:34:18 pm
content: the problem on and after 9/11 was tritium and asbestos inhalation.no tritium here, and any un-removable asbestos will still be in place.a friend checked the site the day after, the visible contamination is mostly chunks of foil-backed fiberglass wool all over the place.i'm close enough to see the smoke out of my windows btw!!

author: timb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2017, 02:17:18 pm
content: Quote from: stj on June 20, 2017, 01:34:18 pmThere was also issues with mercury poisoning due to the thousands of fluorescent bulbs in the towers being turned to dust when the towers came down.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2017, 02:31:52 pm
content: It took until 2010 for them to figure this out.CNTs are worse than asbestos.Here is thereport on 9-11 first responders.https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2854726/"AbstractContext After the collapse of the World Trade Center (WTC) on 11 September 2001, a dense cloud of dust containing high levels of airborne pollutants covered Manhattan and parts of Brooklyn, New York. Between 60,000 and 70,000 responders were exposed. Many reported adverse health effects.Case presentation In this report we describe clinical, pathologic, and mineralogic findings in seven previously healthy responders who were exposed to WTC dust on either 11 September or 12 September 2001, who developed severe respiratory impairment or unexplained radiologic findings and underwent video-assisted thoracoscopic surgical lung biopsy procedures at Mount Sinai Medical Center. WTC dust samples were also examined. We found that three of the seven responders had severe or moderate restrictive disease clinically. Histopathology showed interstitial lung disease consistent with small airways disease, bronchiolocentric parenchymal disease, and nonnecrotizing granulomatous condition. Tissue mineralogic analyses showed variable amounts of sheets of aluminum and magnesium silicates, chrysotile asbestos, calcium phosphate, and calcium sulfate. Small shards of glass containing mostly silica and magnesium were also found. Carbon nanotubes (CNT) of various sizes and lengths were noted. CNT were also identified in four of seven WTC dust samples.Discussion These findings confirm the previously reported association between WTC dust exposure and bronchiolar and interstitial lung disease. Long-term monitoring of responders will be needed to elucidate the full extent of this problem. The finding of CNT in both WTC dust and lung tissues is unexpected and requires further study.Keywords:bronchiolitis, carbon nanotubes, interstitial lung disease, small airway disease, WTCOn 11 September 2001 (9/11), lower Manhattan and parts of Brooklyn were engulfed by a dense cloud of toxic and irritant dust and smoke generated by the collapse of the World Trade Center (WTC) towers (Landrigan et al. 2004;Levin et al. 2002;Lioy et al. 2002). This cloud comprised a complex mix of pollutants, among them the products of combustion of 91,000 L jet fuel, pulverized building materials, cement dust, asbestos, microscopic shards of glass, silica, heavy metals, and numerous organic compounds [see Supplemental Material, Table 1 (doi:10.1289/ehp.0901159)] (Edelman et al. 2003;McGee et al. 2003;Prezant et al. 2002;Reibman et al. 2005).Adverse health effects have developed since 9/11 in workers and volunteers involved in the rescue, relief, and cleanup at the WTC site and at the Staten Island landfill (the major wreckage depository) (Edelman et al. 2003;Herbert et al. 2006;Landrigan et al. 2004;Lioy et al. 2002;Prezant et al. 2002). The health effects most commonly observed involved the upper and lower respiratory tract. Signs, symptoms, and findings include persistent cough, breathlessness, wheezing, asthma, sinusitis, laryngitis, and irritant-induced asthma, also named reactive airways dysfunction syndrome (RADS) (Herbert et al. 2006;Levin et al. 2002;Prezant et al. 2002). Cases of interstitial lung disease have also been reported, including acute eosinophilic pneumonia, granulomatous pneumonitis, sarcoidosis, and bronchiolitis obliterans (Izbicki et al. 2007;Mann et al. 2005;Rom et al. 2002;Safirstein et al. 2003).The Mount Sinai WTC Medical Monitoring and Treatment Program (MMTP) was established to provide standardized screening and facilitate treatment of eligible responders who worked or volunteered at the WTC site. There is no systemic or comprehensive roster of all responders similar to the existing records of responders from the New York City uniformed services, such as the Fire Department of New York (FDNY) or New York Police Department, which frequently include their previous health condition. Estimates of the number of responders given by different sources range from 50,000 to 90,000 in total; we believe that the total, including FDNY workers, is likely to have been between 60,000 and 70,000 (Moline et al. 2009). In this article, we report on a case series of seven WTC responders enrolled in the Mount Sinai WTC MMTP who underwent video-assisted thoracoscopic (VATS) procedures at the Mount Sinai Medical Center and whose WTC exposures began on either 11 September or 12 September 2001. As of 11 September 2007, a total of 12,891 responders claiming first- and/or second-day exposure to the WTC pile had monitoring examinations at the Mount Sinai MMTP on or before 11 September 2007. Of these responders, one underwent VATS with biopsy in 2005, and six underwent VATS procedures between 1 January and 31 October 2007, because of severe pulmonary symptoms, impairment, or unexplained radiologic findings. We describe here the histopathologic patterns associated with these severe forms of respiratory impairment.As part of our overall biopsy examination, we performed mineralogic analyses of the tissue from seven individuals believed to have been previously healthy who developed signs of respiratory impairment after sustaining WTC exposures. Additionally, we obtained and analyzed dust specimens collected on the site (DS) and examined old specimens (controls for old cases; COC) unrelated to the WTC disaster that were routinely submitted to our laboratory for asbestos burden analysis (n= 40) or obtained for research purposes from autopsy or surgical specimens (n= 20) of patients without history of WTC exposure."It should be noted that the CNTs and their sibling, graphene are extremely interesting electronically.

author: Howardlong
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2017, 03:03:30 pm
content: Quote from: stj on June 20, 2017, 12:06:43 pmI totally agree. I live in the borough and the amount of opportunistic bandwagon politics going on is frankly sickening. That does not excuse the shocking lack of action by the council, and the tone deaf responses.QuoteWhile it's understandable in anger to make accusations of conspiracy here, please remember that we are still at the recovery stage. My OH is a volunteer interpreter aiding those affected. Making blind accusations of cover ups isn't helping anyone at this stage, least of all those affected, so while it may be well-meaning, please consider the stage we're at here. There will be a time for this, and I am absolutely certain heads will roll, but now is not it.For information, I have had my own run-ins over the years with this council over wasting public money and box ticking taking priority over common sense, particularly over road safety for pedestrians, and their modus operandi is to stonewall and accuse you of conspiracy (the irony!). The only way you can get them to respond is to take up your case with the ombudsman.

author: nfmax
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2017, 03:11:12 pm
content: Quote<IANAL>As I understand it, an inquest must be adjourned while a criminal investigation is in progress, but a judge-led public enquiry, as announced, can take place at the same time.</IANAL>

author: stj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2017, 03:18:13 pm
content: Quote from: Howardlong on June 20, 2017, 03:03:30 pmi'm not angry, i'm just well-versed in how local councils operate.i would be VERY surprised if anything at all was on the level involving them.

author: Howardlong
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2017, 03:29:34 pm
content: Quote from: stj on June 20, 2017, 03:18:13 pmAs I said, I've had my own dealings with this particular council having lived within it for >25 years, the chances that they are blamefree is precisely zero.I just received an email from the volunteer organisation regarding some interpreter work my OH was scheduled to be doing tomorrow:QuoteSays it all really :-(

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2017, 12:07:42 am
content: OMG,There is only one possible explanation.They have some subcontractor literally on the other side of the world handling their office tasks. And that person doesn't know whats happened to Grenfell Tower.You should tell themand see what their reaction is.Quote from: Howardlong onTodayat 09:29:34>Quote from: stj onTodayat 09:18:13>Quote from: Howardlong onTodayat 09:03:30i'm not angry, i'm just well-versed in how local councils operate.i would be VERY surprised if anything at all was on the level involving them.As I said, I've had my own dealings with this particular council having lived within it for >25 years, the chances that they are blamefree is precisely zero.I just received an email from the volunteer organisation regarding some interpreter work my OH was scheduled to be doing tomorrow:QuoteSays it all really :-(

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2017, 12:29:25 am
content: Quote from: Howardlong on June 20, 2017, 03:29:34 pmKeep the emails, in another few months they may be evidence for the public enquiry.

author: helius
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2017, 12:32:34 am
content: The use of "council" for a town is not new to me, but as an American I have always been slightly puzzled.Is it just a use of synecdoche that became standard? Is it somehow related to the British government structure that allows Parliament to overrule local decisions?

author: Ampera
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2017, 05:16:34 am
content: Quote from: Ash on June 19, 2017, 11:43:56 pmInteresting, I see you too have discovered the oven feature of your refrigerator.The interesting thing is that our fire extinguisher is actually right next to the fridge....

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2017, 03:20:03 pm
content: Quote from: helius on June 21, 2017, 12:32:34 amIt's not entirely clear, but you seem to be reading "council" as a synedoche for "town". That's not an English usage. "Council" is simply short for "town council" (or "borough council" for large metropolitan subdivisions), the local administrative body.In the particular case in hand it's the "Royal Borough of Kensington and Chelsea" but the "Royal" part is an honorific and it'd make more sense to an outsider to think of it as what it is, a metropolitan borough of London.

author: helius
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2017, 03:37:42 pm
content: Maybe the fault is in my own reading comprehension, but a poster saidQuotesince I don't suppose he meant he literally occupied the meeting room of the local government for years.Other terms like "council estate" have alike connotations. To American ears it sounds like the whole board mysteriously died and bequeathed property.

author: Howardlong
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2017, 04:28:11 pm
content: Quote from: helius on June 21, 2017, 03:37:42 pmThat was my crappy description and grammar, together with my own unhealthy dose of assumption and parochialism: it might've made more sense had I said:"I've had my own dealings with this particular borough council having lived within the boundaries that they control."I certainly apologise for not being more clear on this international forum.The basic synopsis is that the government can disband errant councils if there is need, but it is generally under very exceptional and occasional circumstances, such as at Rotherham which is a particularly harrowing recent tragedy about wholesale organised child abuse (in the thousands), criticism of which was systematically brushed under the carpet and discussion about it shut down by accusing the whistleblowers of being racist and putting them on "diversity training".While a different case, and an ideologically different council in terms of politics, the similarity to RBKC and Grenfell Tower is the council's stonewalling and its attempts to ignore difficult problems and trying to shut down dissent. If the currently elected RBKC survives without it being disbanded by government commission remains to be seen, but I'd suggest it's time to replace the old guard at the very least, it's hard to see how they'd be able to stand again without being heckled out of existence. "Politician" and "self-awareness" do seem mutually exclusive terms at times though.

author: stj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2017, 05:56:31 pm
content: they are angering immigrants from areas in the world where they hang people up and torch them - that council needs to be very carefull AND POLITE.

author: vodka
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2017, 06:47:51 pm
content: Quote from: stj on June 21, 2017, 05:56:31 pmClear and they are begining to sing the Varshavianka . At first , on their countries they wouldn't have the guts for reclaimimg their rigths. And like all know ,they will finish to jail, dead or missed(Hassan II, Gadafi,Hussein).As much the same right than the autochthonous, no more neither less . If they don't like they have the opened gate.

author: helius
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2017, 02:24:21 am
content: Quote from: Howardlong on June 21, 2017, 04:28:11 pmYou shouldn't be sorry: we all learn more from the interaction between electronic engineering, a truly international subject, with local problems and perspectives. (Why am I reminded of the "Suicide shower head" thread?)To get back the subject, the exploding refrigerator is a mode of failure that is surprising but probably shouldn't be. At least, I would hope that the UK would be on guard against it having used North Sea gas powered fridges not that long ago! The instant cause in the photos above appears to be too little clearance and too little steel around the defrost element: I wonder if this is a defect particular to bottom-freezer designs. Top-freezer units that I have had apart use multiple steel panels behind and in front of the evaporator and defrost element, but this may have been optimized away in favor of increased efficiency/lower heat conductance.

author: stj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2017, 08:54:15 am
content: bit of unsurprising news,somebody leaked a ton of video from the council camera's installed in the block.because we all know that government agents all suffer from S.O.D.S. and consider camera's a much higher priority than alarms or sprinklers!S.O.D.S. = Survailence Obsession Disorder. - a clinical condition.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2017, 09:28:29 pm
content: So, it turns out I was right, the council HAD outsourced their work.https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/jun/22/council-outsourcing-leads-to-loss-of-crucial-expertise----------------@stj Was this footage takenduring the fire?Quote from: stj onTodayat 02:54:15

author: stj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2017, 10:24:41 pm
content: i think so, but it got pulled amazingly fast!i'm sure it will re-surface soon, utube was not the smartest place to upload it!

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2017, 05:49:14 am
content: Reynobond aluminium/polyethylene panels;Approved use in Germany, France, Russia, Spain; product advertised as "...state of the art in fire safety".What a scam.

author: abraxa
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2017, 08:04:34 am
content: Quote from: floobydust on June 23, 2017, 05:49:14 amIt being approved doesn't say much. It certainly isn't approved for tall buildings.

author: stj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2017, 08:08:49 am
content: revolution-time!https://www.rbkc.gov.uk/bconline/buildingControlDetails.do?activeTab=summary&keyVal=_RBKC_BCAPR_123520

author: mc172
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2017, 08:20:24 am
content: This is also on that website:https://www.rbkc.gov.uk/bconline/buildingControlDetails.do?activeTab=summary&keyVal=_RBKC_BCAPR_124682It describes the work ("New floor areas, new overcladding & windows, new heating system, reconfigured podium and entrance") and at the bottom says "completed not approved".

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2017, 01:35:18 pm
content: It looks official, the Police say that the fire started in a Hotpoint fridge freezer.http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40380584

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2017, 02:23:21 pm
content: I hope they can mine the video to determine how many people were there that night and determine how many are still unaccounted for.Seems to me the structural aspect is solid enough to search for bodies. It's possible some/ many families were away too, given its summer.Quote from: stj onYesterdayat 16:24:41

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2017, 02:58:23 pm
content: Quote from: cdev on June 23, 2017, 02:23:21 pmI don't think that's necessarily the issue. Don't forget that we dispose of human remains by cremation. A big fire can get quite hot enough to have the same effect. In much of the building there may not be bodies, just cremains.Sure, you get some bits of bone left but those can be fragments, not whole easily identifiable bones. Sorting thought the ashes, picking those out and reassembling those into a skeleton well enough to say that you've gotnhuman skeletons is a slow, painstaking job for a team of forensic physical anthropologists. Identifying them is a more difficult task still.Here's a picture of one corner of the interior. Basically anything that isn't concrete, ceramic or metal has been burned to ash:Updated to add:Quote from: Det Supt Fiona McCormack (Met. Police)

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2017, 03:32:15 pm
content: This picture is from an ad for a rental there I found while searching for images on the fire. It looks like the same general kind of room layout, I don't know if its identical. It looks lower down in the building from the view in the window.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2017, 04:03:55 pm
content: Finding bodies after a major incident with intense fire is hard. For example: A couple of decades ago a Boeing 747 cargo plane crashed into this 10 story high apartment building causing a huge fire:The official death toll excluding the people on the airplane is 39.

author: stj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2017, 04:41:32 pm
content: the reason they couldnt search for body's there, was because the israeli scum had been smuggling chemical weapons on the plane.that area is still contaminated now!

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2017, 05:05:20 pm
content: Quote from: stj on June 23, 2017, 04:41:32 pmApparently that is not true. It was part of the planes at the time.Nothing to do with Israel.Source:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_Al_Flight_1862Quote

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2017, 05:27:54 pm
content: QuoteOn the basis that their planes wouldnever evercrash? Another case of severely flawed risk analysis.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2017, 05:40:27 pm
content: Quote from: Gyro on June 23, 2017, 05:27:54 pmI think a number of Boeing 747's and maybe other flying crafts, have still got it.The problem might be when it is exposed to a very big fire, it turns nasty (Chemically and/or radio-actively speaking).

author: stj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2017, 07:43:38 pm
content: i'm not talking about the depleted uranium used as tail-end ballast.i'm talking about the drums of chemicals on board.incase you dont remember, i do!the plane had problems, but refused to land at the nearest airport and tried to make it to a military base - obviously failing.a later investigation found it was transporting banned chemicals and didnt want to risk being searched at a civilian airfield.

author: vodka
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2017, 08:57:31 pm
content: Quote from: Cerebus on June 23, 2017, 02:58:23 pmBut on a crematory, the rest of body(bones) are smashed inside the oven with a steel rod, with the goal finishing to burn the tissues and it can fit by the ash hole. Instead , on a burned building("without collapsing") , the bigger rest of victims (skull, jaw,long bones,etc) stayed intact on the place where they died."The process of a cremation and a crematorium WARNING!!! GRAPHIC"https://youtu.be/kJTclbBKxKk?t=3m2s

author: StillTrying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2017, 09:17:06 pm
content: 1000s of people are being moved out of their flats tonight, - just in case.http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-40389148

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2017, 09:30:49 pm
content: Quote from: stj on June 23, 2017, 07:43:38 pmI haven't found a definitive answer. But the following one, generally disagrees (that there were dangerous/toxic chemicals), but does leave some possibility of doubt.http://www.nytimes.com/1998/10/02/world/nerve-gas-element-was-in-el-al-plane-lost-in-1992-crash.htmltl;drDrums = YESBut UNSAFE/TOXIC = NOBut then official answers "COULD" be wrong or trying to hide stuff. Hence the hopefully slight doubt.

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2017, 11:08:08 pm
content: Quote from: MK14 on June 23, 2017, 09:30:49 pmTwo quotes from that article:QuoteQuoteDimethyl methylphosphonate is a schedule 2 substance under the Chemical Weapons Convention*. This flight is timed suspiciously close to the time when it would have become illegal for the US to export DMMP to Israel (a non-ratifying nation and hence banned as a recipient of schedule 2 substances). Looks like the Israelis were exploiting a 'last chance to buy'. Timing in the run-up to the CWC signature and ratification by the US would be politically embarrassing for the US, so it's easy to see why the Israelis were trying to keep as quiet as possible about what they had on board.The claim that it is not toxic is laughable - Sigma-Aldrich list the following PPE to be used while handling it: Eyeshields, Faceshields, full-face respirator (US), Gloves, multi-purpose combination respirator cartridge (US), type ABEK (EN14387) respirator filter and call it out as "Hazardous to Health". It's an organophosphate, a class of substances that are notorious for their toxicity.The claim that dimethyl methylphosphonate was for testing gas masks sounds highly suspect, there are plenty of substances suitable for testing gas masks that aren't nerve gas precursors. According to the same report other Sarin precursors were on the plane, one crucial precursor was missing. I'll have a bet the missing precursor was one one that's easy to get - isopropanol. So, more likely this was a half truth. They were going to make Sarin, but they weren't going make enough for military use, only enough for gas mask testing (and perhaps a bit left over for the odd MOSSAD assasination).*Quote from: Wikipedia

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2017, 11:17:14 pm
content: If tenants who lived in the building but were away, maybe on vacation, presumably after the fire they would have checked in so that they could be relocated, does anybody know if any families have done that?

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2017, 11:23:46 pm
content: Hold on a second, isn't this flammable claddingon the EXTERIORof the buildings?In other words, it can be replaced with something else without disrupting their lives one bit.

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2017, 12:03:42 am
content: Quote from: cdev on June 23, 2017, 11:17:14 pmGiven the high proportion of immigrants in that building it's not beyond likelihood that some people are away visiting relatives somewhere rural in a less developed country where they won't hear about this until they get to an airport. If that does happen they will be miserable, but any friends who didn't know that they were away will be overjoyed.Some could be away for an extended period, either in the UK or abroad, and in particular somewhere away from phones and the media. I've been away walking for 14 days in the UK before, deliberately keeping away from cellphone coverage. It might be a few days yet until we hear a story like this emerge.

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2017, 12:12:19 am
content: Quote from: cdev on June 23, 2017, 11:23:46 pmI've seen cladding systems like this, in fact one has just been used on a school being refurbished just around the corner. The windows and the cladding are usually integrated. So to replace the cladding they have to rip the windows out.Here's the actual exterior of the Chalcots Estate that is currently being "evacuated" (from the Projects Archive of the people who put the cladding up):

author: StillTrying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2017, 12:49:43 am
content: Quote from: cdev on June 23, 2017, 11:23:46 pmSome building are having the cladding removed during the day, some are leaving the insulation behind, they're starting at the bottoms with small amounts of scaffolding and even cherry pickers.Tonight's evacuations, 8:30pm-10pm! are something to do with gas pipes being in the communal areas after the renovations, something that's been mentioned a few times including from the one that burnt.Renovations on social housing are often quite rough, bare pipes and electrical trunking all over the walls is quite common.

author: StillTrying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2017, 01:00:00 am
content: Quote from: cdev on June 23, 2017, 03:32:15 pmYour pic is one of the top flats, you can see it's nearly level with the top of the others! I've got a couple of friends who live in high-rise but it their rooms are nothing like your pic, each room is nowhere near that big.In the burnt out pic, I assume the internal walls have completely burnt away, you can tell by the left behind plumbing.

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2017, 02:08:06 am
content: Quote from: StillTrying on June 24, 2017, 01:00:00 amIf you look in the burnt-out picture you can see a linear heap of ash where the internal walls were. If you look at the other picture you can see that the point of view is of a very wide angle lens (probably one with tilt/shift correction bellows)justnot showing the walls which arejustout of shot. It's a classic photographers technique for making a room look bigger.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2017, 02:38:37 am
content: I wonder what they are going to do now here in the US with their natural gas deal. (If they can't use cladding on old apartment buildings.)(I wonder how much prices will rise.)Australians, how much did your energy prices go up when you started exporting your LNG?

author: stj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2017, 09:12:17 am
content: i hate gas, the only place it should be piped to is power stations.

author: Electro Detective
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2017, 09:44:52 am
content: Quote from: cdev on June 24, 2017, 02:38:37 amDon't ask, getting f***** on all energy prices hereand the petrol companies refuse to wear condoms, and give anyone complaining the finger

author: Ampera
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2017, 11:02:24 am
content: Quote from: Electro Detective on June 24, 2017, 09:44:52 amNot sure what sorta companies you guys have in Australia. Over here, all our gas stations are on the pill.

author: stj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2017, 11:25:59 am
content: the biggest problem is government policy's controlled by Israeli's / neo-con'snothing helps fuel prices like making enemy's of just about anybody with decent resources.such as Russia,Iran,Venezuela etc.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2017, 01:40:24 pm
content: Quote from: stj on June 24, 2017, 09:12:17 amBut it's more than twice as efficient to burn the gas directly to generate heat, rather than use it to power a heat engine to generate electricity, then turn it to heat. It's true there's a risk of fire with gas but using much more electricity for heat would increase carbon emissions and the associated risk of huge environmental disasters later.

author: stj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2017, 01:51:40 pm
content: carbon-dioxide = good.gas is trouble, leaks, carbon-monoxide poisoning, pipes in the way etc.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2017, 02:02:58 pm
content: I'm worried we may see large scale dislocation of families and communities that can no longer afford heat and deforestation in rural areas as people forage for firewoodA pattern thats common elsewhere. The poor in the US until now have largely been able to remain warm due to our so called energy advantage the worlds cheapest natural gas.It costs a lot more elsewhere and poor people can't afford heat. Germans get free college, up until now Americans have gotten artificially cheap heat and protectionist labor markets that make wages artificially high, is the way they frame it.

author: tronde
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2017, 02:05:39 pm
content: Quote from: cdev on June 24, 2017, 02:38:37 amYou can use non-combustible cladding.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2017, 02:21:35 pm
content: Been there, done that.It's called "asbestos". Asbestos shingles last forever. They are fireproof and virtually indestructible. (Asbestos shingles seem to me to be one of its less "friable" forms, but its still classified as hazardous waste. However, good insulative value as shingles, considering their thickness (thinness, really) and non flammable)A newer hazard very similar to asbestos medically is the hazard created by certain fibrous engineerednanomaterials, especially"high aspect ratio" carbon nanotubesused in composite materials. Also, certain kinds of fires, as well as electrical sparking,canproducecarbon nanotubesin environmentally relevant quantities!For example, it was found that thelungs of 9-11 first responders contained CNTs from the WTC disaster. CNTs are being (foolishly I think) added to all kinds of products, including heavy duty "tyres" without enough consideration given to the potential dangers as they are released into the environment. (The combination of CNTs and chemicals known to initiate cancerseems to result in substantially higher ratesof carcinogenicity)And, history repeats itself- CNTs now are also being used in, flame resistant coatings for flammable plastics/foams, etc, including building cladding.We need to look at the whole process and not just passing one particular test by causing another long lasting and costly health problem.

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2017, 03:08:50 pm
content: At first I thought it a little surprising the amount of damage (and deaths), since the building is concrete and the fire was only on the exterior, but if you realise that the plastic is basically solid petroleum fuel, it helps put things into perspective. I guess the insides were heated enough to also catch fire. Most building fires burn from the inside-out and don't cause as much damage as this...

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2017, 03:33:34 pm
content: Quote from: stj on June 24, 2017, 01:51:40 pmGood how? Fizzy drinks.QuoteYes but you missed the point: gas piped to your home saves energy.Use double the amount of gas in a power station to power a heating element in your, for double the cost generating double the CO2emissions and double the environmental impact. Granted you don't have the risk of CO and leaks but there's a greater risk of drought, high food prices, flooding etc.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2017, 03:36:20 pm
content: Quote from: Hero999 on June 24, 2017, 01:40:24 pmModern heat pumps are very efficient, especially after considering how easily they can be zoned. It should be an obvious choice in warmer climates, where A/C is required.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2017, 03:57:46 pm
content: There are a number of problems.1: Plastics. If you look at newer construction it makes extensive use of plastics which are not only extremely flammable, (much more so than wood once they get going) they- and toxic smokes they produce once burnt, also contain endocrine disruptors which are a subject in themselves, These persistent organic chemicals also persist in the environment and build up in living things bodies where they threaten reproduction, cause cancers and neurological problems, make people morbidly fat and cause metabolic syndrome, diabetes, and an endless list of other health problems, at a huge and growing cost to society (a costalready estimated at 2% of the current EU GDP) and its growing.2. Fake wood products - again tons of problems, including catastrophic structural failure under some conditions ( "delamination",) offgassing of known carcinogens, tendency to grow toxic molds if used in places where prone to condensation, in the case of some hybrid fiber/plastic products, offgassing of vapors some of which have similar problems to 1, and so on.3.) Foams which contain plastics are very strong and very light but need to be protected from flame. Also many contain4.) flame retardant chemicals that may be just as dangerous as fires.5.) In the US, especially, paper covered gypsum wallboard, and mold. Molds produce some of the most toxic/carcinogenic/potentially health destroying chemicals known to mankind when subjected to (very) high humidity conditions.There are some obvious solutions - Modern energy efficient windows can drastically improve the live-ability of older buildings and are a really good investment. But, what to frame them with?Larger, existing buildings are not so easy to retrofit.for example, -look at what happened to the vinyl windows at grenfell.New construction can be energy efficient but relies too greatly on the materials mentioned which are problematic.Passive solar design can make *homes* that require little heating and cooling much of the year, much of that they need can be provided by powered ventilation and in some cases, the ground, which stays at a fairly constant temperature - in small dwellings, that reservoir can be utilized for both heating and cooling.But for ideological reasons, starting with the shift in the 90s and the WTO agreement on services, now governments can't/don't want to help families that need them get services, they are forced to hire commercial firms, so the solution of building well built homes for families has been put out of reach, and indeed, all forms of subsidized services, if they have not already, will likely soon run into problems in trade agreements.. Basically, governments have signed and are signing giant worldwide permanent, irreversible non-compete agreements with multinational corporations that cant be fixed by voting once services are deregulated. (So the deregulatory changes now going on in health care in the US and UK will become permanent, due to the deals "ratchet' an important fact Americans and Britons are being denied)

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2017, 04:02:05 pm
content: Quote from: NiHaoMike on June 24, 2017, 03:36:20 pmSo not the best choice for the UK and no good for cooking food.

author: stj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2017, 04:17:28 pm
content: Quote from: Hero999 on June 24, 2017, 03:33:34 pmyou like breathing dont you?plants create oxygen, and they feed on carbon-dioxide.good for putting out fires too.

author: Ampera
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2017, 05:06:39 pm
content: Quote from: stj on June 24, 2017, 04:17:28 pmWhile CO2 might be beneficial in some respects, pumping enormous amounts into the atmosphere isn't a great idea.Not to mention most of our oxygen comes from the oceans, not from land plants.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2017, 05:33:15 pm
content: Quote from: TwoOfFive on June 24, 2017, 05:06:39 pmSome plants are also damaged by high levels of CO2.https://www.skepticalscience.com/Increasing-Carbon-Dioxide-is-not-good-for-plants.htmlCoral bleaching, drought and milder winters (insufficient chilling: many temperate plants need a period of low temperatures to grow properly) are also bad for plants.

author: tronde
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2017, 05:41:16 pm
content: Quote from: cdev on June 24, 2017, 02:21:35 pmNo, asbestos is illegal. You use mineral wool that is something completely different instead of the plastic foam and aluminium sheets as weather protection.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2017, 05:52:05 pm
content: Quote from: tronde on June 24, 2017, 05:41:16 pmAsbestos may be illegal in Europe but it's still legal in other countries. It was used in the UK up to the end of the 90s and can still be found in many old buildings.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2017, 06:06:43 pm
content: Quote from: Cerebus on June 23, 2017, 11:08:08 pmWe are going outside of my knowledge base here, but I will try to give an opinion, anyway.There seem to be two different points, so I will try to separate them out, and discuss them separately.(1)...Was the chemicals toxic in their own right, as they were (BEFORE being made into chemical weapons or used for other purposes).(2)...Politics of Israel and those substances.(1)...Barrels toxicityIf my (limited) understanding is correct. They were basically safe and relatively non-highly toxic. Because they did not have ALL the ingredients to make deadly Sarin, and they would have needed to be correctly processed together, to make Sarin.So it was ok for those barrels to be there (ignoring politics/Israel).(2)...Politics of Israel and Chemical weaponsThis should be too off-topic to this thread, undesirable on EEVblog (Politics = NO) and not really connected to my original point. Which is that the barrels are basically safe and non-toxic.When I say "SAFE", that does NOT include future possible uses, to make Chemical weapons etc. Just that it was "safe" in the air accident and crash situation.Ideally/really NO country should have Chemical Weapons.We can't discuss (2) anymore, because it is too off-topic in this thread, and would be likely to close the thread and/or get posters into trouble.Which is fine by me, as there are plenty of other avenues to discuss politics.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2017, 06:28:39 pm
content: This was a factory that handled wax, and burnt for a few days before the fire was put out. They are still skimming off wax from the waterways, 3 months after this fire, the canal still has a Dali scheme to it, complete with massive wax sculptures all along the banks.As to the OP, tragic fire, and yes petroleum products do burn incredibly well once lit, and being vertical only helps the fire spread, Looks like the only reason the building still stands is the concrete columns are so thick that even with massive spalling and thermal cracking they still have enough integrity left to hold up the floors, and the floor castings are probably pre stressed concrete, so they probably are only being held together by this pre stressed steel in the lower third of the floor thickness. Building likely will be condemned and torn down, no way short of stress testing each floor to rated must survive load to check, and it would be safer to tear it down than hope it survives that test.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2017, 06:39:25 pm
content: Quote from: Hero999 on June 24, 2017, 04:02:05 pmYou might be surprised to learn how inefficient a gas stove is - on the order of 40%. Compare that to about 75% for induction. Electric resistance can do even better at over 80% under the right conditions, but drops off very quickly under less than ideal conditions.http://ecorenovator.org/forum/41632-post56.htmlInduction also has a big advantage in that it is least likely to ignite spilled oil. That's the main reason it has become so common in commercial kitchens - less fire risk means lower insurance costs.There also exist solid state heat pumps that can operate to the boiling point and beyond. I once came across a tabletop water heater that used that technology, mainly used for brewing coffee/tea or having a large supply of near boiling water to quickly start cooking.Keep in mind that in residential, cooking is not a particularly large use of energy (it is a large demand for peak power), and hence why buying an induction cooker purely for its energy efficiency is unlikely to pay off.

author: tronde
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2017, 07:17:54 pm
content: Quote from: Hero999 on June 24, 2017, 05:52:05 pmYes, it is found in older buildings. That is not considered a severe problem as long as it is left alone. In the US "new use" of asbestos is banned, and from what I can see, it has not been used as thermal insulation on the outside of buildings, so it should be banned for that use. They are allowed to use sheets made of asbestos-cement as weather protection, but that is mostly a problem when the product is manufactured.The Grenfell Tower could have used mineral wool and aluminium sheets instead of the plastic foam and aluminium shees for almost no extra cost. I have read about GBP 5000 extra.

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2017, 07:38:57 pm
content: The list of errors and negligence around this disaster is amazing.The building has no sprinkler system!Politics, cost, inconvenience and us EE's here know this is madness.The cladding, seems to befailing safety testsand reminds me of Swissair Flight 111 disaster where the plastics technically passed the (glow) flame test but actually reignited afterwards, very scary.TheHotpoint fridge model is knownand I've seen defrost resistors fail and ignite the interior of a fridge. It seems fairly common.OK that's three serious screw ups.

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2017, 07:40:31 pm
content: Quote from: MK14 on June 24, 2017, 06:06:43 pmNo, this is nasty stuff to handle. It's anorganophosphateand has similar toxicity to organophosphate insecticides and will almost certainly be bio-accumulative in the same way and by the same mechanisms. The United States Environmental Protection Agency lists organophosphates as very highly acutely toxic to bees, wildlife, and humansIt's fine sealed in a barrel, it's not fine when you're trying to clean up a site and everybody has denied, or deliberately concealed, that it is present. If it had been a common, equally toxic, industrial chemical it would have been dealt with properly. It's rôle as a chemical weapon precursor clearly influenced all involved to conceal its presence and lead to unacceptable exposures of people and subsequent health consequences.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2017, 07:40:55 pm
content: Mineral wool would not have burnt - certainly none of the hazards typically encountered would be enough to get aluminum hot enough to burn. But plastic foam easily could.>>The Grenfell Tower could have used mineral wool and aluminium sheets instead of the plastic foam and aluminium shees for almost no extra cost. I have read about GBP 5000 extra.You do know that this specific Reynobond cladding, despite what the UK government says,was not banned in the UKon tall buildings. It should be banned everywhere.People need to speak up to prevent this insane race to the bottom on deregulation.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2017, 07:47:29 pm
content: Its just inconceivable to me that any large building built within the last 100 years would not have a sprinkler system.In California, no sprinkler system=no certificate of occupancy. So, no legal business. No rent can be collected or requested without a valid certificate of occupancy.So, no more money until its fixed and inspected and a certificate issued.Fire kills people. So this is important.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2017, 07:55:12 pm
content: Quote from: Cerebus on June 24, 2017, 07:40:31 pmI guess that if the substance(s) are too dangerous (if the plane crashes), they should use alternative methods. Such as ships or road transport etc. Assuming the alternative methods are safe enough.I remember when the US was decommissioning, huge quantities of Chemical weapons, from Syria. It caused extremely major difficulties, as to how to safely transport "live" Chemical weapons, and protect them against Terrorist ambushes/hijacks etc.

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2017, 08:14:34 pm
content: Quote from: cdev on June 24, 2017, 07:47:29 pmGrenfell is a 1974 building and that was building code back then. No sprinklers in a 24-storey buildingRetrofitting sprinklers seems to be avoided at all cost, it would be a lot of work adding piping through cement. So much political noise about the cladding, yet who kaiboshed this?With electrical/electronics gear, the rule of thumb I follow is "If I touch it (change parts, renovate, upgrade), it has to meet today's safety codes".Doesn't matter whether it's someone's house, building, antique radio etc.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2017, 08:19:24 pm
content: Quote from: floobydust on June 24, 2017, 08:14:34 pmIf it was build using older building code it probably would have collapsed like a building called Ronan Pointhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ronan_Point. I recall reading something about using a recipy for building a 4 story building for a much higher building which caused a similar collapse but that isn't in the Wikipedia article for Ronan Point.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2017, 08:27:34 pm
content: Quote from: floobydust on June 24, 2017, 08:14:34 pmI think that one of the big mistakes that was made for this building, was NOT upgrading it to have a sprinkler system, by law.(Without worrying about the exact height), there should be a law in the UK, so that ANY building, normally occupied by many people (i.e. possibly excluding empty and/or storage only buildings), at or above four floors, MUST have sprinkler systems, retroactively fitted to them.Presumably/hopefully such a conclusion will come about, after the public enquiry.N.B. I don't have the figures to hand, or experience/know-how, to calculate the exact number of floors where this MUST be a requirement, and/or statistics, to confirm it is the right course of action.Some people have commented (elsewhere), on the lines of it is difficult to have a sprinkler system, in a very rough, social housing environment. Because of vandalism, poor maintenance and the people who live there. Objecting to it being fitted, because of the big hassle factor. E.g. Having to move out while such a system is fitted.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2017, 08:37:16 pm
content: Quote from: MK14 on June 24, 2017, 08:27:34 pmAnd why do you think a sprinkler system would work? It will take lots of maintenance and when it goes off it will cause a huge amount of damage to people's property. It also won't help if the fire comes from the outside.QuoteThe right course of action is to keep the amount of flammable substances to a minimum and seperate a building into sections divided by doors which slow down a fire. In case of the Grenfell tower I assume the cladding is solely responsible for spreading the fire so far and so quickly. I've seen fires in apartment buildings over here and it is rare for these to reach the apartments next to it. But then again the outside cladding is made of metal, glass, bricks and concrete.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2017, 08:45:04 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on June 24, 2017, 08:37:16 pmHow will it not help? At the minimum it'll slow the ingress.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2017, 08:46:22 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on June 24, 2017, 08:37:16 pmOn reading about this tower fire, recently. I remember reading that it is thought a sprinkler system would have kept the fire under control long enough for the residents to escape, and may have even saved the building. But because it was read somewhere on the internet, I DON'T know how reliable that comment(s) were.The sprinkler systems law, is already partly the case in the UK (if I understand correctly).ALL new buildings (I'm not sure of definition. Maybe homes only, or businesses as well) in Wales and all new buildings above a certain height/floor limit, since dates I don't know exactly, MUST have sprinkler systems, installed by law, in the UK.I'm guessing. But as a result of this terrible tower fire disaster. I expect that the laws will be tightened up, and sprinkler systems, will be mandatory, even for older buildings, above certain height or number of floors.I.e. There will probably be a whole bunch of changes to the laws, on sprinkler systems, external cladding, etc etc.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2017, 09:27:04 pm
content: Quote from: MK14 on June 24, 2017, 08:27:34 pmThis particular building was made entirely of concrete, with concrete floors and dividing walls. Any fire within one of the flats as originally designed would have been contained by the concrete and would have spread slowly, if at all, giving people time to escape the immediate area and time for the fire brigade to put out the fire.What seems to have undone that design is the addition of flammable cladding on the outside. No cladding, no spread of fire.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2017, 09:41:23 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on June 24, 2017, 09:27:04 pmIf a single failure of something, is going to result in the deaths of a huge number of people, then that would be VERY dangerous.E.g. That is why we DON'T have big jumbo jets, with SINGLE engines. Because if that engine broke at the wrong time (such as while over the middle of the Atlantic, or during take-off), it could potentially kill hundreds of people.So if the cladding failure (a single failure, whereby it is flammable, rather than safe in fires), is enough to then kill a huge number of people. It would be much better, if there were at least two failures which were needed for it to go disastrously wrong.I.e. it would be best/better if both the cladding were fire-proof AND there were sprinklers to hopefully put out the flaming fridge/freezer, before it has a chance to set the whole tower block alight.Then there are other missing safety features, such as at least two independent (fire escape usable) stair cases, and a working/decent fire alarm system, and probably many other things.My understanding is that despite the fact the building was mainly concrete, the smoke/fumes (from various sources, such as furniture/cladding/peoples-stuff etc) are an extremely bad part of fires. Which themselves (the smoke), can kill lots of people and/or prevent/hinder them from easily using the stairs to escape.E.g. Carbon Monoxide.

author: Ampera
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2017, 09:47:09 pm
content: Funny you mention single engined bypass turbofan planes, there, up until recently, has been INCREDIBLY heavy restrictions on even two engined planes going over the oceans. This is why there used to be the engine planes, with a third engine usually mounted in the tail. Now there are less restrictions, not to mention planes like the 787 making low demand long haul flights feasible.I think this is the Wendover Productions video on that topic.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2017, 09:30:10 am
content: Quote from: MK14 on June 24, 2017, 09:41:23 pmThere's also talk that some of the cladding insulation was based on polyisocyanurate, which when it burns released cyanide gas, so if the smoke and CO didn't kill them then this did.Absolutely insane. This will be a case study in engineering ethics for years to come.

author: Yansi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2017, 10:43:11 am
content: Sorry if already mentioned here, but heard in radio this morning, that the UK evacuated people from similar buildings.

author: stj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2017, 11:33:54 am
content: yes, they never miss an opertunity.btw, fitting sprinklers in a tall building is very difficult.a sprinkler system needs water and the tanks are on the roof usually on a building designed for it.another way is heavy water tanks on the ground that are pressurised by gas cylinders.because you cant trust electric pumps incase the power fails.and there is not enough natural pressure to get the water much past the 10th floor even for normal use.i'll be devils advocate here, and add that they recently reduced the lift pressure on a lot of the pumps in london to reduce maintainance costs.

author: donotdespisethesnake
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2017, 11:50:49 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on June 24, 2017, 08:37:16 pmThat's so wrong on may levels. Firstly, stats : there has never been a multiple fatality fire in a building fitted with a working sprinkler system.Sprinkler systems take no maintenance, apart from vandalism which applies to everything.If the "sprinkler goes off" it's because there is a fucking big fire directly underneath. It's nothing like the movies.. A fire "coming from the outside" kills just as well as fire started inside. Have you any clue how fire propagates? Hint : radiated heat. The main danger to safe evacuation is smoke, not flame.BTW, when the fire service arrive, they view the property as written off already. Their primary role is to save life and stop the fire spreading to other properties.I can see why we don't get better safety standards, if the average punter is so clueless. All they ask is "how much more tax will I pay?"

author: donotdespisethesnake
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2017, 11:53:10 am
content: Quote from: stj on June 25, 2017, 11:33:54 amYes, it's 2017, we still haven't figured out how to do install internal plumbing yet.I know, let put swimming pools by tower blocks, so people can just into them. You know, like in the movies.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2017, 12:23:39 pm
content: Here they dropped distribution pressures because there has been zero pipeline maintenance in the system aside from repair as it fails and some small sections ( with the largest leaks) being replaced with HDPE pull in place piping. This was to reduce the non metered loss from 50% to 30%, as basically every pipe leaks, every tap point is rotted near to nothing and the valve stem seals are often a century past the replace by date.One reason I put in a 0.2 micron filter is this, as the regular daily water cut off scours the piping system, depositing all the asbestos mud into the water as it scours the pipes coming back to full, and I do not want to drink that sludge. Filters go brown pretty fast even without this scouring, there is a lot of sediment and junk in those century old pipes, that has accumulated through the years as sections were replaced and mud got into the system. Still has lead pipes in places, and a lot of the copper piping was lead soldered.The pull in place was done so there was no need to remove and dispose of asbestos cement pipe, just hydraulic crack it with the tunnelling machine as the new pipe is pulled through the bore, and then cut down at each customer tap and drill into the pipe with a clamp on tap. They just marked all the fire hydrants in the affected areas with a blue painted top to indicate the presence of the HDPE pipe, so the fire brigade knows there is a lower maximum flow rate available on these points, as there is a smaller 4 inch pipe instead of the old 6 inch fibre cement pipe.As to sprinkler systems, there are multiple reasons for installing them, either the height of the building, the occupancy profile or what is stored or manufactured there. Whatever the reason, you will have the same arrangement, a Christmas tree ( or a few on larger buildings, which is the name for the control block that does flow detection, alarm activation of the water bell, non return valving and a booster connection along with a draw point into the large water mains) that pressurises the piping, the pipe tree and isolation valves to shut the parts off for maintenance, so you can do service a floor at a time and still have the system armed, the pipes into each section ( always exposed red painted steel pipe, with clamped sections for easy pipe section replacement) and finally the sprinkler heads, with the detector element ( either fusible metal block or glass frangible plug) and a spray nozzle in there to act as control units.Larger buildings you will have either a small header tank on the roof to provide back up pressure so there is water in the system long enough for the fire brigade to arrive and provide boost water pressure, and in some cases large tanks on the property and boost pumps as well, either electric with a backup generator or simple diesel pumps alone.At the very least the building should have has hose reels per floor, with hose pipe at the regulatory 30m length, and such that any 2 can be used on any fire. that these were either not there, or not working, is a direct reflection on the building owners, as this is a part they are required to maintain.

author: stj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2017, 12:54:51 pm
content: each foor will have a dry-riser outlet near the lift - inside a locked steel door.the only people with keys are the council-maintenance people and firebrigade.and that's it - no sprinklers,hoses or zoned fire alarm even.i have been in many of these blocks - i grew up among them.the only way the residents could fight a fire would be to piss on it or throw sourcepans of water at it!!another little thing, the blocks use big steel communal waste bins - and sometimes kids set the contents on fire - seen it half a dozen times.these bins are generally up against the outside wall, or just inside an open section on the ground floor.

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2017, 02:09:00 pm
content: Quote from: stj on June 25, 2017, 12:54:51 pmNot quite. Firstly, although the dry riser cabinets are locked (with a service key, not a 'proper' lock) they have breakable glass access panels. If the building has floors above 60m from the Fire Brigade vehicle access level than it has to have wet risers, with 1500 l/m pumping capacity pumps (one standby, one duty) and a tanked supply of water good for at least 45 minutes duration (67,500 litres) for each wet riser. Bigger floor area requires more dry or wet risers - I won't bore you with the figures.Quote from: stj on June 25, 2017, 12:54:51 pmStatic fire hose reels are not required but are in fact quite common, strangely more common in older buildings than new. Some councils may require them as part of planning permission. I reckon that Brighton does (or did) as I've seen them in every block of flats in thetowncity. London is a bit more variable, but I've seen them in about 1/2 the multi-storey office buildings I've worked in.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2017, 02:14:05 pm
content: Quote from: donotdespisethesnake on June 25, 2017, 11:50:49 amAnd what is more fun to a bunch of teenagers then to activate the sprinkler system? And how about (slightly) mentally disturbed inhabitants who set it off and soak the homes below? Sprinkler systems suck for appartment buildings.

author: vodka
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2017, 02:37:04 pm
content: The most strange is these builidings hasn't one or two fire extinguishers for floor.In uk , is not it mandatory for the buildings?

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2017, 02:43:04 pm
content: In the US, most, perhaps every tall building has a built in fire-friendly hose system called a standpipe and the bottom connection is placed where its easy for firefighters to get to it even if the building is on fire.Is that common in the UK?

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2017, 03:07:20 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on June 25, 2017, 02:14:05 pmDying sucks more.

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2017, 03:08:42 pm
content: Quote from: cdev on June 25, 2017, 02:43:04 pmCalled a dry riser in the UK, mandatory for buildings over 18m. Dry fallers are required for buildings with basement levels 10m or more deep.

author: vodka
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2017, 03:13:12 pm
content: QuoteSo that is a more trouble politics and the security. i don't know if in you country exists the False Alarm crime or order public disturbance . And like affects the civil responsability for the fathers of the teenagers

author: stj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2017, 03:40:57 pm
content: Quote from: Cerebus on June 25, 2017, 02:09:00 pmsorry, but i lived in London flats - i could go take some foto's in the week if you want.the risers have steel plate where the glass "should" be, and are locked with a yale door style lock and/or a 3-lever padlock.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2017, 03:56:38 pm
content: Do they still have the brass pipe connections for the lay flat hoses, the hoses and the brass fittings on the ends of said hose. Here hose reels are common, and the reel is made from steel, has a steel valve on it and a plastic nozzle end, because if it is made from brass or aluminium it basically will not survive the night, though you often find them being used as impromptu car washing hoses or to wash the assorted "you really do not want to know what this is" from the exterior stairs, landings and walls.

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2017, 04:10:42 pm
content: Quote from: stj on June 25, 2017, 03:40:57 pmI don't have a copy of BS 9990 (which the building regulations approved document B requires the cabinet to meet) to hand, but I believe that would fail to comply. If it's not breakable for access and it's got a lock that requires fiddling with a key (in smoke, heat etc) or bolt cutters than it's clearly not satisfactory. If you find ones that fit the description you've given I'd urge you to report it to the HSE or Fire Brigade; in the current climate I'd expect you to get taken very seriously.

author: vodka
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2017, 04:31:40 pm
content: Quote from: SeanB on June 25, 2017, 03:56:38 pmIf you think that the thieves will not steal the steel reel or valve, you go raw. Here , they have robbed until iron Sewer cover or window grilles.NO PASSA RES!!(DOESN'T PASS NOTHING!!)

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2017, 04:36:19 pm
content: Not the teenagers Ive known in cities. And I lived in multi-unit urban housing for most of my life. Kids who live in apartment buildingshave to bequiet and well behaved.(Note, the US doesn't have much public housing anymore, it did up till 1995 and WTO general services deal, but for that reason its largely been privatized now)Ive never heard of an indoor false alarm in an urban apartment building. I'm not saying they dont happen, just that what you're describing sounds much much more like a made up stereotype than today's reality.Quote from: nctnico onTodayat 08:14:05

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2017, 04:46:58 pm
content: There are some cities in the US (Ive never lived in an area this bad) where metal theft is common, but I sincerely doubt if fire hardware inside of apartment buildings would get stolen, ever.Most of the times, when a fire hose is in a hallway, it has a glass door, which I am sure is not only so it can be gotten out without a key to be used in an emergency, its also so it would be immediately obvious if it wasn't there. Theft of them is not just uncommon, Ive never seen that happening. And Ive been in a hell of a lot of apartment buildings. i even lived very briefly (two weeks housesitting for somebody else) in an apartment building that had been taken over by its residents when the landlord defaulted on their taxes and utility bills. All of the fire equipment there was in good shape and the building passed fire inspections. It remained a tenant-owned building for another 20 years after that, so it must of had to have. It was a beautiful old "prewar" building, old buildings often are really well made. No plastic, just wood and metal.That was in 1970s in New York City, and the neighborhood had lots of junkies, so there were desperate people.Actually, come to think of it there was one fire violation I remember. One day my then girlfriend and I went out for the day and came back in the evening to find that a three wire, fairly robust extension cord had been installed in our apartment (which had power) that went out the window to the abandoned building next door. I dont remember seeing any light over there. But it was known that homeless people were squatting in that building.We just left it there .That was probably the most marginal neighborhood Ive ever lived in and it was actually a very livable area where people were friendly to one another. I never felt threatened there.Quote from: SeanB onTodayat 09:56:38

author: StillTrying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2017, 04:51:00 pm
content: Gov. now saying the number of buildings that have failed the cladding fire tests is 60.Translation:It's now about 300.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2017, 05:03:45 pm
content: All they need to do is train two surveillance cameras on opposite sides of each building and tie them in to an instance of OpenCV that will immediately send an alarm 24/7 if flame is seen.No need to evacuate anybody.

author: stj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2017, 05:17:18 pm
content: oh they have the camera's - trust me.all live-linked to the townhall basement stasi-scumbags and banks of harddrive-recording systems.some councils even forward all footage to a remote "backup" monitoring center.westminster has a "backup" in scotland!!you would think they are guarding a bank vault, not just spying on people walking down the damned street.and then they complain about funding shortages!!Hammersmith council a couple of years ago, started a program to replace every camera with a HD one and the required backend upgrades.and if you saw the motorised lense assembly's they have on many of them - they are the size of a beer-can!!!that's where all council spending goes - that and street-lamps that scan your phone as you pass by!!!

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2017, 05:27:21 pm
content: Quote from: cdev on June 25, 2017, 05:03:45 pmSo if the fire started at 4:00 AM precisely.How long would it take a pensioner, who lives on the 24th floor and is in their 80's, who can't hear very well (maybe can't hear fire alarm too well), and walks extremely slowly. To get down 24 flights of stairs, which is rapidly filling with impossible to see through or breath, smoke and the temperatures are skyrocketing, due to the massive cladding/building fire ?

author: vodka
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2017, 05:35:56 pm
content: Quote from: cdev on June 25, 2017, 04:46:58 pmSo you believe it, they have entered to apartment building only for robbing the knobs of the doors. There are cases, the thieves have taken the gas pipe of the community, provoking leakages

author: vodka
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2017, 05:57:06 pm
content: Quote from: MK14 on June 25, 2017, 05:27:21 pmSo here on Spain is mandatory (CTE-DB-SI )that the building of this characteristics have an emergency lift or for firefighters

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2017, 06:18:26 pm
content: Quote from: vodka on June 25, 2017, 05:57:06 pmI'm not sure how that would work out. If an all rooms in the building fire started (so everyone needs to get out), and there are 600 people, who all would ideally like to use the lift to get out, at the same time.Anyway, I don't think the UK has such regulations.

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2017, 07:28:29 pm
content: Quote from: MK14 on June 25, 2017, 06:18:26 pmIt does. UK Building regulations approved document B section 18.2. What Vodka fails to make clear, although you can figure it out if you second guess him, is that he's taking about lifts forfirefighting, not escape; which is what is addressed in the UK regulations I've cited, shafts and lifts for firefighting.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2017, 07:44:54 pm
content: So, if they already have cameras that are on continuously, it should be simple to train them to recognize even a small flame and send a particularly urgent alarm that basically says this is TOP priority to put out, now.Also, surveillance equipment is not a good use of funds. That money would be better invested in educating young people so there was a future for them and the community.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2017, 07:50:34 pm
content: Robbing doorknobs? In old houses in Detroit typically what gets robbed is copper piping. Which often ends up tragically when perfectly good foreclosed houses that could have been sold and become an affordable home for somebody get flooded and become so moldy they become dangerous to be in and impossible to clean so a complete loss and have to be torn down.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2017, 08:05:03 pm
content: Quote from: Cerebus on June 25, 2017, 07:28:29 pmI did not know that. But I had heard there was provisions for the fire service. I just did not know the exact details.The fireman would have breathing apparatus, as otherwise I guess that smoke and toxic fumes. Would make a lift a very dangerous, confined space, without them. In a very bad fire.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2017, 08:21:58 pm
content: It was like that in New York City in the 70s and 80s too. So bad that cars would be broken into just for their lowly AM/FM radios. In order to prevent this, some people removed the radios from their cars and put signs in their windows saying "No Radio". A friend who lived on Vesey Street, told me that he had seen one of these cars completely trashed one day and a little sign, identical to the original one except for its wording, was left inside it, it simply said "Get One".

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2017, 09:13:06 pm
content: Tis a sad world we live in. At least 150 people in Pakistan managed to cremate themselves today collecting fuel in pots and pans from an overturned tanker, phoning friends and relatives from neighboring villages so that they could join in. Then apparently someone lit a cigarette.It managed half a day on the BBC news main page today before being relegated to the world news page.http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-south-asia-40396036No, I don't know what I'm trying to say either, maybe something to do with attitudes towards safety across the world or whatever. No politics involved, just human nature or desperation left to run its course. It seemed that the event should at least be marked. As I said, it's a sad mixed up world.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2017, 09:38:03 pm
content: Quote from: cdev on June 25, 2017, 07:50:34 pmBuild from wood I guess? I can't imagine a stone house being impossible to clean.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2017, 09:42:45 pm
content: A few years ago I saw the testimony of a young man who lost one arm and one leg while trying to collect coal from a moving train car carrying it during the midst of North Korea's horrible famine. He was lucky to be alive. One of a great many tragic stories I heard watching the UN COI hearings. Its useful for keeping things in perspective. Nomatter how bad things here seem, they could be a LOT worse.http://www.ohchr.org/EN/HRBodies/HRC/CoIDPRK/Pages/PublicHearings.aspx

author: electr_peter
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 25, 2017, 09:56:48 pm
content: Quote from: Cerebus on June 25, 2017, 07:28:29 pmLifts are not to be used in case of fire, only stairs. No special extra lifts are built for firefighting typically (too costly). However, newer lifts have special mode (accessed via special key or key combination or SW, etc.) for firefighting - it is "god mode" for lifts, so to speak. It has the highest priority, can go to any floor, can open doors at any height or lift location, etc. Similar to full manual service mode.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2017, 10:21:31 pm
content: Yes, almost all houses in the US are built using wood. Stone is quite rare in newer construction here.Concrete is commonly used in commercial buildings and in base slabs in areas where freezing of the ground is unusual. Cooler areas in the US usually have a basement constructed of cinder blocks which forms the foundation and then wood and more recently, composite materials. Some newer homes substitute metal for wood. Insulation has traditionally been fiberglass but many newer homes use spray in foam.Quote from: nctnico on June 25, 2017, 09:38:03 pm

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2017, 10:34:07 pm
content: Actually, it is possible to save the core structure, what needs to be done is all the wallboard and flooring need to be removed, everything thats not solid wood. (once composites get wet they are never the same again, they lose most of their structural strength and also the out gas formaldehyde) Then the bare timbers are blasted with dry ice at high pressure which removes the entire outer layer and its immediately vacuumed up. That part is very fast, and its quite a sight to behold. It leaves even old wood looking new again. The vacuum exhausts outside. (It must have a HEPA filter so it doesn't have the effect of poisoning people nearby.)Workers also need to wear full mask HEPA (p-100) filtration that covers the eyes nose and mouth completely and gloves. Macrocyclic trichothecenes and many other mycotoxins are really toxic.So basically everything except for the frame has to be replaced, and it has to be scoured, literally. the blasting process is so aggressive it removes dry rot. If any timbers are rotten, they get replaced. They cant just paint over mold. If they do that they will have a sick building that makes everybody who lives in it ill, probably for many lifetimes.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2017, 09:46:38 am
content: Quote from: Gyro on June 25, 2017, 09:13:06 pmThe sad thing is few people here care: they deserved it because the Paki thieves and idiots deserved to die for steeling fuel whilst smoking. In reality they were poor, only one person lit the cigarette and many of the people killed were probably innocent bystanders.

author: Yansi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2017, 11:14:24 am
content: If they can handle mobile phones, shouldn't they be smart enough not to light cigarettes when handling open fuel?

author: BradC
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2017, 11:18:28 am
content: Quote from: cdev on June 25, 2017, 07:44:54 pmYou keep talking about CCTV cameras and fire detection. Have you ever actually used this stuff? Hint, it's not as easy, nor reliable as you seem to think it might be.

author: AndyC_772
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2017, 11:34:00 am
content: Quote from: StillTrying on June 25, 2017, 04:51:00 pmMakes you wonder about the nature of the test they're now conducting, and how it compares to any testing that was done on these materials beforehand.I wouldn't be at all surprised if:- the original test specified that a material must not support a flame for more than X amount of time after a source of ignition Y is held under a sample of size Z and then removed (eg. similar to the tests used to classify engineering materials to UL 94V-0 and similar), but:- the new test is: "never mind quantitative testing;couldthis samplepossiblycatch fire?"I can virtually guarantee that the outcome of the investigation will not be "everyone involved complied with applicable regulations; however, these may now need to be reviewed in the light of this incident".Instead, the questions asked will be "couldyour organisationpossiblyhave done more to prevent this type of incident from occurring" - to which it's impossible to ever definitively answer "no".

author: grumpydoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2017, 11:48:56 am
content: Quote from: AndyC_772 on June 26, 2017, 11:34:00 amAIUI samples are failing current Buidings Regs so it should be easy enough to check what testing is required in the current legislation.The interesting questions are1. Will the government require existing installations be brought into line with the current regulations - I suspect that the answer will be a resounding yes given the scale of the disaster than befell Grenfell Tower.2. Were the installations in line with the regulations when they were installed - if not then heads really ought to roll and I hope that the rush to test and remove cladding does not make this determination impossible.

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2017, 11:50:18 am
content: Quote from: Yansi on June 26, 2017, 11:14:24 amSmokers tend to do the whole lighting up and smoking thing on auto-pilot if there's something else to occupy their attention.Back when I used to smoke I once absent-mindedly lit up while sitting at my desk in a non-smoking office. I was simply so absorbed in the task in front of me that I was completely unaware that I had decided to light a cigarette, let alone that I was doing it somewhere inappropriate.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2017, 12:16:46 pm
content: Like Kim Jong-Un seems to do while inspecting solid fuel missile launching sites...The staff always look a bit uncomfortable.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2017, 12:32:14 pm
content: Perhaps slightly off topic but still very related: Where would you place fire extinguishers in your home, for best effect... and how many of them?

author: stj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2017, 12:44:01 pm
content: extinguishers go in the hallways.prefereably co2 or powder - unless you dont have electricity in your house!as for the outcome of the "investigation", same old shit - first it will take as long as possible until most people forget.then it will be "specific blame cannot be applied"(because it's our fault), "lessons will be learned"(no they wont), "changes will be made"(no they wont)and that will be all you hear.it's always the same with "public"(government) enquiry's - they are just a coverup tecnique.

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2017, 03:21:30 pm
content: I just automatically assumed that the cladding came from [EDIT: was manufactured by] a UK company, but no it isn't....http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40409981... and saying they are stoppingworldwidesales. There could be a lot more testing going to be happening!Edit: The story has padded out a bit now:The Manufacturers (Arconic US) have issued a fresh statement:Quote

author: vodka
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2017, 05:56:59 pm
content: Quote from: Cerebus on June 25, 2017, 07:28:29 pmI am refering to the case exposed by MK14 about old men with reduce movity. This man would have to move to refuge or emergency stairs( zone isolated of the common zones with a anti-flame doors ) where the old man will wait to the arrived the firefighters by the emergency lift and being evacuated. That is the spirit of the CTE-DB-SI .https://www.codigotecnico.org/index.php/menu-seguridad-caso-incendio.htmlQuote from: electr_peter on June 25, 2017, 09:56:48 pmCareful ,the main stairs might be a trap such danger as the normal lift if the fire is on down-stairs (smokestack effect).electr_peter will be very expensive but the building code Spanish is fine clear and it is compulsory cumpliment for that the profesional colleges will aprove the project(Over 28m for general pupose, over 15 m for use hospitalary).

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2017, 06:53:21 pm
content: Quote from: Gyro on June 26, 2017, 03:21:30 pmLOL I read that as Arsonic the first time. I had to read it again.Anyway, I hope the council sue their arses.

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2017, 07:02:53 pm
content: Just to be clear I wasn't singling them out as a US company, I had been under the impression that it was a UK company that had managed to get the contract to supply various local councils (in much the same fashion as a double glazing company).What I suddenly understand is that this is aninternationalcompany, selling worldwide. That puts a whole new angle on things - what government is going to risk the backlash and fallout from not doing something about a problem that is known to have caused a devastating fire in a UK Tower block?

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2017, 07:49:21 pm
content: The cladding should first be approved for use in the country/municipality. I did not see Britain on the approvals list, let alone a height limitation.Some loophole or crook allowed it to be used, and Alcoa seems happy to sell it anywhere for anything. They aren't liable for misapplication of their products.Second, after reno's an inspector checks the work meets building code and should have noticed the cladding's approvals/use are deficient.The Fire Brigade seems to have not looked it over either.I see this kind of failure of approvals all the time - in building construction, in engineering. I've seen it cause explosions (damn shorted mosfet).In North America "the Authority having Jurisdiction" is to catch these mistakes.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2017, 07:54:55 pm
content: No, I was just speculating, Ive never used regular non-thermal or thermal imaging for flame detection, and would very much like to hear your experiences using whatever you used for flame detection.Sorry if I sounded snotty..No I have not done it! Seems like a logical approach though, if the goal is preventing more incidents like Grenfell. This is science and burning plasticisscary but "it isnt rocket science" in that this is a totally solvable problem and shouldn't be disruptive of people's lives. Its not the inhabitants fault the councils in their rush to make the buildings look newer, screwed up badly on fire safety.Quote from: BradC on June 26, 2017, 11:18:28 am

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2017, 08:16:11 pm
content: I think the big question is likely whether it was legal to use on tall buildings in the UK at the time it was put there.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2017, 10:39:43 pm
content: Quote from: cdev on June 26, 2017, 08:16:11 pmThat is a very bad idea. Fortunately the EU seems to be against these kind of laws for now.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2017, 10:48:06 pm
content: Nctnico, no, unfortunately not. The EU came up with a slightly renamed "alternative" ISDS which is basically the same thing andhas the same problems.(I'm sorry, I edited my original post!)Governments being charged the cost of safety regulation when thats their job, and its companies jobs to make sure they are selling safe products. Corporations are trying to pin, for example, the huge cost of shifting away from activities and chemicals costs onto countries that want to regulate them, (good link to info) and setting up panels that require all 40+ countries agree on things, a move that will stifle much needed regulation. (similar deals already or potentiallypreempt US states rights to regulatetoxic products and activities)

author: Lord of nothing
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2017, 12:26:38 pm
content: there are some information in german who show the anger of Styrofoam.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1o34slPoa-8https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6bZVTGWCjJIhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1kI21F17wYY

author: abraxa
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 28, 2017, 08:55:36 am
content: Quote from: stj on June 26, 2017, 12:44:01 pmCareful with powder-based extinguishers, though. That powder is so extremely fine that it will go into every corner of the apartment/house and because it's usually a salt, it will become very corrosive since the air provides moisture. In the process, it also becomes hard like rock. I've only ever seen CO2 or foam extinguishers in computer labs - the powder would immediately render all computers in the room broken beyond repair. Same goes for car engines, by the way.For these reasons, I strongly suggest using CO2- and/or foam-based extinguishers.

author: helius
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2017, 09:22:59 pm
content: Well I just found something quite eerie. See this doc on the prefab housing disaster, note at 44:00: Q: "Do you think the cladding systems being used to repair system-built housing pose a fire risk?" A: "Yes."https://youtu.be/Ch5VorymiL4

author: Yansi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2017, 09:08:13 am
content: Wow.. that really is eerie.//the quote begins more precisely at 45:26

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2017, 02:36:46 pm
content: This is the problem with so called "procurement reform". Everything is built to either be the cheapest possible, or to waste the absolute most amount of money.Now imagine how difficult it is going to be to get ANY accountability when the firm who built your whatever (your engineering firm) or hospital or university administrationis on the other side of the world!Welcome to global pillage.

author: stj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2017, 04:21:37 pm
content: Quote from: cdev on July 10, 2017, 02:36:46 pmactually it's both, the difference going to connected middlemen.a good example was the so-called "Boris bus" (not english? use a search engine!)they spent 2.5million on a god-damned 1:1 scale model made of wood!!!a custom-shop or coach-builder could have made half a dozen real ones for that!!

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2017, 04:43:51 pm
content: The idea behind procurement deals like the GPA and trade in services deals like the GATS is that qualified corporations from all around the world get a right to bid and perform the work, if they win. Lowering wages and spreading the profits around so that huge multinational firms get access to markets that previously were done by local business or governments with local firms.Thats the main benefit of the agreements. On services that basically means an incremental but nonobvious process leading to the end of domestic schemes that act as a monopoly on things like healthcare, education, housing etc. and a return of market based forces, without the jobs that existed then, (like cottage industry, etc) although some services may remain subsidized until the market can work itself out, and during that period, people may need to travel for some services to afford them.Its intent is in no small part to push wages down to global norms. (only subsidized services are subject to these rules.) For an idea of what the ideals ("best practices" are by industry check out the OECD's Services Trade Restrictiveness Index.; (STRI)Completely free services not delivered in competition with any private entity in any way, are exempt. Water is deemed a commercial service as long as its sold. Air might not be, unless its sold. The main idea is that governments shouldn't be competing with corporations, devaluing the prices of essentials (which are deemed naturally high if the services are life saving, low if not important) stealing the food off their plates, as it were.More money always has to buy more, and less less, as thats deemed the natural state of things. Otherwise, what would be the point of being rich! Think of the changes as a global alliance between the haves to make sure that have-ing remains the exclusive club its become, forever.Democracy is still okay in areas that don't involve anything of economic value.The hierarchies of global economic governance institutions is graphed out here:http://www.levyinstitute.org/conferences/minsky2011/presentations/Wallach.pdfNote that this only applies to things which are paid money for, and all laws affecting trade in goods or services. Areas like cultural issues, (natnl. holidays, battles between various flavors of oligarchy, electoral politics, (although dont expect politicians to ever tell the truth on the power they have given away) "gay marriage" firearms, abortions, etc. military and national security, etc, are generally exempted from these rules and people and elected leaders still govern them in the old way. Often pretending to disagree to make it seem less bizarre that they never accomplish anything positive)High value services and their provision and all government "measures" (any law, policy, rule, act or non-act, or endijng of action of entities down to the local level as well as those of quasi governmental bodies - a great many areas) "affecting" trade in services are heavily impacted. Financial services are the most impacted.Thats where the biggest changes are happening.The corporations basically control the world now, and not figuratively, I mean actually control.

author: Avacee
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 18, 2017, 04:40:01 pm
content: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40632705http://www.itv.com/goodmorningbritain/news/top-five-headlines-youre-going-home-to-18-july(Item 3)http://www.electriciansforums.co.uk/threads/2013-grenfell-power-surge.122026/For info: Media reports are emerging about power surges in Grenfell Tower back in 2013 and naturally the media are trying to create a link by getting an expert to say "Power Surges can start fires in refrigerators."

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2017, 05:05:06 pm
content: Power surges can start fires in anything. Whether they did or not is another issue entirely.

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2017, 05:30:18 pm
content: It looks like another muddying of the waters. Just guessing, but I would have thought that there would have to be an internal leak of the flammable refrigerant to make a fridge actually explode (Edit: assuming that's what it really did).

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2017, 05:54:41 pm
content: Quote from: Gyro on July 18, 2017, 05:30:18 pmRefrigerants are designed to have a very low flammability. The most flammable refrigerant commonly used is HFO-1234yf and that requires a lot of heat to get it to burn. I don't believe it's common in domestic fridges though: it's more common in newer cars, as it doesn't deplete the ozone layer or have a great affect on climate change as the older refrigerants.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2017, 05:55:56 pm
content: Quote from: Hero999 on July 18, 2017, 05:54:41 pmCommon in domestic fridges is R-600a. Also known as isobutane. I'll let you figure out the flammability..

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2017, 06:04:51 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on July 18, 2017, 05:55:56 pmI didn't know that. It's retarded to use something that flammable! It should be banned!https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isobutane#Refrigerant_use

author: stj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2017, 06:09:48 pm
content: should have stuck with freon,instead of demonising it to cover the fact that the u.s. satanic dickhead government had blown a hole in the ozone layer with high-altitude nuke "testing"i put that in quotes, because how many have to go bang before you decide it works? personally 3 out of 3 would do me, not hundreds!!

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2017, 08:20:04 pm
content: The firemen thought they had successfully put out the apartment fire due to the refrigerator but the refrigerator had been near a window and (this is what I read weeks ago) something re-ignited. Probably because the fumes from the melted superheated plastic were flammable.

author: stj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2017, 09:18:38 pm
content: that sounds like BS to me.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 19, 2017, 07:50:32 am
content: It's not BS. The fire fighters extinguished the initial fire, in the first apartment, but unknown to them, the cladding on the outside of the building had already ignited and spread the fire round the corner of the block where they couldn't see.

author: Avacee
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 19, 2017, 08:58:12 am
content: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40645205Tests show the cladding was 14 times over the combustibility limit (ie released 14 times more heat than allowed) and contained the equivalent energy of 51 tons of pinewood.With the airgap between the building and cladding its no wonder the cladding burnt so well.Quote

author: langwadt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 19, 2017, 10:49:49 am
content: Quote from: Hero999 on July 18, 2017, 06:04:51 pmThere's not much gas in a refrigerator, probably no more than can of gas for refilling lighters etc.

author: Yansi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 19, 2017, 11:49:23 am
content: There will be way more than a single can. Look at the name plate of the fridge. Should be right there. Refrigerant type including charge weight.

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 19, 2017, 02:23:41 pm
content: Quote from: Yansi on July 19, 2017, 11:49:23 amJust looked at the manual for my 345 litre (12 and a bit cubic feet) capacity fridge/freezer, which comes in two versions according to market. For the version that uses R600a (isobutane) it has a charge of 65g, for the version that uses R134a (Tetrafluoroethane) it uses 155g. I have a can of "Clipper" butane for refilling lighters, its content is 170g (that's 300ml by volume).So, it's not "way more than a single can", it's less than 1/2 a can.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 19, 2017, 02:32:40 pm
content: Quote from: Cerebus on July 19, 2017, 02:23:41 pmBut your can of lighter fluid isn't supposed to be used around electrical switches and relays, where there will be arcing. If you read the can you'll probably find it advises keeping in a cool place, away from sources of ignition and only use it in a well ventilated area.There are plenty of perfectly good non-flammable refrigerants which don't deplete the ozone layer, so it makes sense to use them over a dangerous flammable gas.

author: BradC
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 19, 2017, 02:39:31 pm
content: Quote from: Yansi on July 19, 2017, 11:49:23 amRefrigerant limits are designed to ensure the lower flammability limits (LFL) are not reached in any practical room size in the event of a catastrophic discharge.You will find the implementation of hydrocarbon refrigerants have had two effects.A) The insistence on charge sizes small enough to ensure a discharge is below explosive levels has triggered a mass of research into more efficient evaporators and condensers which manage a lower refrigerant mass to prevent a refrigerant fueled explosion.B) The resulting efficiency increase in both HC and HFC refrigeration units.The charge level in your average fridge is *way* below what is required to provide an explosive (and even mostly flammable) environment in your average kitchen space.HC appliances also have strict regulation around switches and arcing, so you can strike that off your hysteria list while you're there.

author: BradC
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 19, 2017, 02:42:12 pm
content: Quote from: Hero999 on July 19, 2017, 02:32:40 pmNo, there really aren't. If there were, they'd be in use. Have you actually looked at the combustion byproducts of *any* of the "mildly" flammable flourinated refrigerants?

author: timb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 19, 2017, 03:11:18 pm
content: Quote from: Hero999 on July 19, 2017, 02:32:40 pmThere really aren't, though! R600a is a *really* good refrigerant! You know, I actually considered converting my last car from R134a to propane to help boost the output of the AC. (In the end, I didn't. Though it's pretty easy to do and is becoming popular in with some car models that have undersized AC systems.)

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 19, 2017, 03:19:36 pm
content: Quote from: BradC on July 19, 2017, 02:39:31 pmBut explosions due to isobutane domestic fridges have happened before.http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/picturegalleries/howaboutthat/6120297/Exploding-fridges-ozone-friendly-gas-theory-for-mystery-blasts.htmlQuote from: BradC on July 19, 2017, 02:42:12 pmYes, the combustion by-products of all halogenated refrigerants are highly toxic but they don't readily burn and by the time they do, there are far worse things to worry about.

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 19, 2017, 03:23:45 pm
content: Quote from: Hero999 on July 19, 2017, 02:32:40 pmAnd what's that got to do with me clarifying how much refrigerant is actually used?

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 19, 2017, 03:28:47 pm
content: Quote from: timb on July 19, 2017, 03:11:18 pmYou've got your quotes really FSCK'd up there Tim.Someone will be along in a minute to tell you that using R600a will turn your car into a bomb (nicely ignoring the 100 litres or so of refined rock blood that you'll be carrying around anyway).

author: BradC
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 19, 2017, 03:31:17 pm
content: Quote from: Hero999 on July 19, 2017, 03:19:36 pmI'll get into this argument when you can quote an article that is more than vague speculation and has some actual evidence, let alone evidence of consequential damage outside of a damaged appliance. Go on. Find one that started a fire (which is what we are actually talking about here).Plenty of fires started by malfunctioning fridge electrics. Compressors, defrost heaters, wiring... go on. How many started by an ignited refrigerant leak?

author: BradC
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 19, 2017, 03:35:57 pm
content: Quote from: timb on July 19, 2017, 03:11:18 pmDon't go trying that timb. It won't work well at *all*. r600a requires a hugely increased compressor displacement to get the same refrigerating effect and isn't *close* to a drop-in for r134a. Now a 60/40 mix of R290/R600a (Propane/Iso-Butane) is a pretty close drop in for R12 and will mostly do a credible job in a r134a system is a closer mix. But r600a alone will leave you very disappointed.If you want to get funky, then it's about a 66/34 mix for an r134a drop-in. You want a slightly higher pressure for 134a or you'll need to adjust your pressure switches / re-set the calibration in your variable displacement compressor, and that's not worth contemplating.

author: timb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 19, 2017, 03:39:57 pm
content: Quote from: Cerebus on July 19, 2017, 03:28:47 pmWhoops, sorry about that! Fixed. (I must have deleted a bracket in the nested quote tags!)And yeah, I ran into that argument on a forum for my model car. The first replies were people telling me the car would explode if I ever crashed. My reply was pretty much the same as yours: It's not like I'm not already carrying around 10 gallons of petroleum and another gallon of mineral oil, plus pounds of natural rubber. All very good fuels for a fire. A few hundred grams of a gas that will quickly either burn off or dissipate isn't much of a problem at that point.

author: timb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 19, 2017, 03:41:57 pm
content: Quote from: BradC on July 19, 2017, 03:35:57 pmNo, you're exactly right. It was propane (or a mix thereof), not straight isobutane that I was considering. It's been like 10 years since I looked into it, but as soon as you said propane it all came back.I did a bunch of research into, but in the end determined it was more trouble than it was worth. I determined the biggest problem was that the interior of the car was black, so on a hot summer day it would spend 6 hours soaking up heat from the sun and the A/C just couldn't cope with it. I ended up getting a high quality tint done on the windows and bought a custom fit foil sunscreen to cover the windshield when parked. Then I traded with a friend for a medium sized tank of R134a, a set of gauges and a vacuum pump and re-pressurized the system myself. Those three things helped out tremendously. Damn, I miss that car.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 19, 2017, 05:36:21 pm
content: Quote from: Cerebus on July 19, 2017, 03:23:45 pmNothing to do with your comment but the topic of the thread! Read through to the part where the use of flammable refrigerants was first raised.Quote from: BradC on July 19, 2017, 03:31:17 pmYou are correct that a source of ignition is required but that's the same with any flammable substance. Old refrigerants acted as fire retardants but the new ones are accelerants. How much potential chemical energy is there in a fridge charged with isobutane? More than enough to cause a dangerous explosion.Now I live in a house supplied by natural gas so you could say I'm being irrational. However, the gas supplied to my home has an odour added. If I smell gas, I can open the windows and turn off the gas at the main valve. However, if my refrigerator develops a gas leak, I won't know about it because isobutane isn't that smelly. All would take is for me to open the fridge door or my boiler to light and bang.It's possible that the fire in the London apartment building was accelerated by a flammable refrigerant but it's not clear yet.

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 19, 2017, 07:28:54 pm
content: Quote from: Hero999 on July 19, 2017, 05:36:21 pmI'm quite cognisant of the latter, I just don't understand why you quoted me instead of either quoting something relevant, or just adding a reply without a quote.

author: langwadt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 19, 2017, 07:46:15 pm
content: Quote from: BradC on July 19, 2017, 02:39:31 pmand the gas in a refrigerator is in an hermetically closed system soldered together, a can of lighter gas has a valve that is cheap enough to throw out after use

author: langwadt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 19, 2017, 07:51:22 pm
content: Quote from: timb on July 19, 2017, 03:11:18 pmI believe that to use something like R600a in a car it must have a heat exchanger, I'm guessing the rational is that a system leaking in thesmall confined space of a car would be bad

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 20, 2017, 03:20:41 am
content: R152a (commonly found in duster cans) has been used as an alternative to R134a that has about 1/10 the GWP and slightly higher efficiency for A/C applications.R600a is OK for above zero refrigeration but not very good for below zero. R290 and R1270 (and mixtures containing them such as R433b) do well to -40 or so, and R410a will go below -60 pretty easily.Not sure how old the refrigerator in question is, but if it's really old, it could be using R40 or R717, both of which are flammable (especially the first) and very toxic. (Some used R764, although that's not flammable, just highly toxic.) After that, it's pretty much all R12, R22, or R134a. Refrigerators using R600a, R290, or R1270 haven't shown up until recently.

author: stj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 20, 2017, 01:10:40 pm
content: your distracting yourselves.anyway, the fire brigade arent idiots, they would not let a fire go through a window un-noticed.

author: tronde
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 20, 2017, 02:44:20 pm
content: Quote from: stj on July 20, 2017, 01:10:40 pmSeems like they did so, this time.Firefighters had put out the initial fridge fire at Grenfell Tower and were leaving the building when the blaze suddenly flared up, it has emerged.Crews believed they had put out the fire at the London high-rise and were astonished to see flames rising up the side of the building, new reports have claimed.http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/06/20/grenfell-tower-firefighters-put-fridge-blaze-just-leaving-flats/

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 20, 2017, 03:33:44 pm
content: Quote from: stj on July 20, 2017, 01:10:40 pmWith what? The safety and flammability of modern refrigerators is something which needs to be investigated. The refrigerant is only part of it. The flammability of the thermal insulation foam, arcing due to switches and relays, defrost heaters and thermal protection are all factors.The flammability off the cladding might have allowed the fire to spread as it did, but if the fridge wasn't faulty and didn't contain flammable materials, then it wouldn't have happened in the first place.I hope flammable refrigerants aren't used in building air conditioners, unless the entire refrigeration unit is outside, behind a decent blast-resistant firewall.Quote from: tronde on July 20, 2017, 02:44:20 pmIt's highly likely the fire was still burning, unnoticed, inside the cladding and given that high rise flats have been designed for many years to prevent the spread of fire from one apartment to another, it was reasonable to assume that the fire has been fully extinguished.

author: stj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 20, 2017, 06:33:39 pm
content: it's also possible that their where 2 seperate fires.one may even have been cover for the second - comercial/industrial arson is unfortunatly very common thanks to property values!

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 20, 2017, 06:35:54 pm
content: Yeah, I think that's a leap too far.I think, given the sensitivities involved, suggesting arson is probably a good way of closing this thread!

author: stj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 20, 2017, 07:22:32 pm
content: a leap too far?near my previous address, someone arson'ed a 3 story retail outlet with flats above it because it was a listed building!some people dont put lives above money.

author: StillTrying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 20, 2017, 08:10:35 pm
content: Quote from: Hero999 on July 20, 2017, 03:33:44 pmI seem to remember someone (must have been a fireman ?) being TV interviewed weeks ago, saying that they couldn't understand why it was now being described as a major fire on their radios, while they were in the flat after the fire was put out.But it doesn't make much sense that they didn't check or see what was happening outside the broken window, checking a fire hasn't escaped into a void is what they'd normally do.

author: stj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 20, 2017, 11:17:38 pm
content: if the flames had effected the window they would have inspected it to make sure it wouldnt fall out on anybody.i'v personally seen them do that.even more so on a plastic framed window!

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 21, 2017, 07:54:53 am
content: Quote from: StillTrying on July 20, 2017, 08:10:35 pmThe trouble is, voids are often inaccessible by their nature. I believe the cladding used consisted of two pieces of aluminium, with some flammable insulation in between. It's possible the insulation could have been burning away, unnoticed inside the cladding, spreading the fire and by the time the fire fighters were aware of this, it was too late.Quote from: stj on July 20, 2017, 11:17:38 pmIt would be crazy for them to go round a huge building, securing every bit of burnt debris which might fall and hurt someone. They normally fence off the area outside a burnt out building to stop people from being in an area where there's likely to be falling debris.

author: stj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 21, 2017, 02:13:00 pm
content: the stuff under the cladding plates was foil-backed fiberglass wool.i saw it.

author: AndyC_772
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 21, 2017, 02:57:37 pm
content: How does that burn, then?

author: stj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 21, 2017, 03:57:46 pm
content: i dont think it does - the bits all over the car park werent burned that's for sure.

author: StillTrying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 21, 2017, 04:44:00 pm
content: All of the bits I saw tested on TV burst into some sort of flame instantly. Once the aluminum panels get hot the polywhatsit layers bubble out at the edges and burst into flame.https://www.channel4.com/news/high-rise-buildings-fail-fire-safety-tests

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 21, 2017, 05:21:56 pm
content: Quote from: stj on July 21, 2017, 03:57:46 pmOfcourse, but the cladding itself (which is/was over the insulating material) burned.

author: helius
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2017, 12:43:00 am
content: Fiberglass wool doesn't have a sufficiently high R-class as the foamed polymers do. So it requires a greater quantity of material for the same insulation performance. These cladding systems use polyurethane foams which are flammable.

author: zl2wrw
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2017, 08:57:34 am
content: Quote from: Cerebus on July 19, 2017, 02:23:41 pmLiquid R600a is less dense than liquid R134a (2.51 kg/m3 vs 4.25 kg/m3), so basically speaking, you don't need as much mass of it to get the same refrigerating effect (but you do need a compressor with a larger "swept volume" / "gas flow rate").

author: Howardlong
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 06, 2018, 05:04:28 pm
content: For those outside the UK, the public inquiry started a couple of weeks ago.Reports today are really rather along way from the nonsense was reported at the time. It's little wonder that the MSM is held in such deep disdain, and we should also remain very wary of "news" and conspiracy theories we hear from social media bandwagons.You rarely, if ever, hear the purveyors of unsubstantiated rumours ever apologising as loudly for their disinformation: funny, that.https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-44381957

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 06, 2018, 06:13:41 pm
content: Thanks for the update. I think it's going to get uglier during the inquiry.Tragedies like this always have multiple fails- fridge burns, no sprinklers, flammable cladding sold and installed, council ignores fire safety requirements etc.Now, I'm surprised the resident of the unit where the fire started is a scapegoat.

author: stj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 06, 2018, 06:46:32 pm
content: are they releasing video yet?or are the council's 1984-department still playing dumb about the fact these flats are fully servailed?

author: Howardlong
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 06, 2018, 06:53:19 pm
content: Quote from: floobydust on June 06, 2018, 06:13:41 pmThings will also be rather more nuanced than you suggest, something that doesn't work well in two minute pieces to camera and Twitter commentary. The council had no direct involvement in the day to day running and management of the building, that was KCTMO, although its board members consist of elected councillors as well as tenants.The sprinkler issue is indeed a problem, as I understand that social housing for some reason is exempt from having it fitted by mandate. Now the question over the cladding and its suitability is of course under question, both in terms of its specification and whether the regulations are robust enough. But let's not forget that for both the sprinklers and cladding, this council's far from alone, it transpires there are dozens of other councils with equally dangerous tinderboxes.The point of the inquiry is to get to the truth. I fear we will hear of many other stories of disinformation. Already, the really rather obnoxious disinformation of "hundreds dead" was distributed by back and front bench opportunist politicians alike, and Z-list Twitterati who think they're "helping" behind the comfort of their keyboard. Some continue to do so. The toll is 71 confirmed dead.

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 07, 2018, 12:53:14 am
content: Would this have happened if the fridge was using R12 and the insulation was asbestos, not polystyrene? Really makes you wonder...

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 07, 2018, 01:15:04 am
content: I also question the standard advice given to people who encounter a fire: "Leave the scene immediately and call the fire service."I'm very sure that if I encountered smoke in my kitchen I would make some attempt to extinguish the fire and would only evacuate after it became clear the fire was out of control. I would not leave a fire to burn if there was any chance I could put it out.

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 07, 2018, 01:15:48 am
content: Most fridge fires are caused by the defrost heater or the compressor relay burning up. The 'explosion' I'm not sure, some refrigerants are more flammable:"Samsung... announced a 'home visit repair programme' on two ranges of fridge freezers in Korea and Europe following the case of a domestic fridge explosion......'In very rare cases, the rubber seal that provides insulation may carbonise when subjected to excessive temperatures, caused by the assembly issue. This can result in a partial short circuit within the defrost heater. In some cases this may lead to possible internal sparking. The sparking can rupture the external surface of the heater allowing the sparking to concentrate on the surrounding surfaces or adjacent internal components - which depending on the location of the sparking could, in very rare occasions lead to leaking of the coolant.'2009:"Maytag has announced a massive recall of 1.6 million fire-prone refrigerators. The recall includes Maytag, Jenn-Air, Amana, Admiral, Magic Chef, Performa by Maytag and Crosley brand refrigerators... The company said that an electrical failure in the relay, the component that turns on the refrigerator's compressor, can cause overheating and pose a serious fire hazard. Maytag has received 41 reports of refrigerator relay ignition, including 16 reports of property damage ranging from smoke damage to extensive kitchen damage."Another old fridge recall:"... The defrost heater coil can become exposed inside the units, which poses a potential shock hazard to consumers. In some cases the exposed heater wire can also melt, or burn the unit's interior plastic food liner.... 45 reports of incidents of the defrost heater coil becoming exposed. Nine of those incidents resulted in an electrical short. The others melted and burned the unit's interior plastic liner. No injuries have been reported."

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 07, 2018, 08:15:46 am
content: Quote from: wilfred on June 07, 2018, 02:56:27 amYes as a child, I remember seeing a public information broadcast on TV, showing someone rushing to the sink to fill a bucket with water, to put out a small fire, but by the time it was full and they got it back, the small fire had turned into an inferno.In this case, the advice from the fire fighters was for residents to stay put, as this is standard for fire proof buildings, where a mass evacuation would only imped fighting the fire. However, they didn't realise at the time that the building was no longer fire proof. In retrospect, they should have changed their advice earlier but hindsight is a wonderful thing.

author: Yansi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 07, 2018, 11:22:21 am
content: QuoteNo wonder, after seeing how slow is water flowing out some US water taps. Here in our area in a completely different part of world, you can fill a bucket quite quick, even from the kitchen sink.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 07, 2018, 11:34:53 am
content: Quote from: Yansi on June 07, 2018, 11:22:21 amTry timing just how long it takes to fill a good sized bucket. Even in a place where the flow from the tap looks really strong, its surprising how few litres per minute are actually flowing.

author: apis
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 07, 2018, 11:57:43 am
content: Was about to water the plants anyway: 9.5 l/min (cold water only)

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 07, 2018, 12:31:35 pm
content: Water pressure varies considerably, even in a comparatively small area. At my house, the water pressure is so high I can't stop it by putting my finger over the tap and it will burst a hose pipe, if the tap is on and the valve at the end of the hose is closed. Where I work, just over 3 miles down the road, the water pressure is very low and it trickles out of the tap. One of the reasons for this could be that my work place is over 30m higher, than my house. It also varies depending on the time of day.It only takes a couple of minutes for a small fire to turn into an inferno, especially with the highly flammable furniture which was common in houses, until fairly recently and was probably the norm when I was a child.

author: BradC
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 07, 2018, 12:54:09 pm
content: Quote from: amyk on June 07, 2018, 12:53:14 amGiven they are now saying the fire started in the proximity of the refrigerator and not necessarily in or by the refrigerator the answer to that question is considerably more variable.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 07, 2018, 01:03:21 pm
content: Quote from: BradC on June 07, 2018, 12:54:09 pmThe refrigerator is still a fuel source and will have an outcome on the spread of the fire. The fire might have still occurred if the fridge wasn't flammable, but it would have taken longer to spread through the kitchen.

author: Delta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2018, 06:11:30 am
content: Quote from: Howardlong on June 06, 2018, 05:04:28 pmWith respect, "Man's lawyer says he did nothing wrong" holds about the same weight as unsubstantiated rumours.

author: Howardlong
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2018, 02:31:11 pm
content: Quote from: Delta on June 09, 2018, 06:11:30 amHmm, "holds about the same weight", really? Time will tell, but it would be unlikely that he is lying or misleading the inquiry bearing in mind the efforts others would go to find evidence to disprove his statements. I would certainly give this more credence than random uncorroborated and unsubstantiated Twitter "reports".He was offered witness protection by the authorities, that's hardly the actions of authorities looking for a scapegoat.

author: Yansi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2018, 02:46:53 pm
content: Quote from: apis on June 07, 2018, 11:57:43 am17.6 l/min from our kitchen sink. Just have tested. Well, maybe faster if I would remove the damn airator that makes the silly bubbles.In the garden the flow is a bit higher.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2018, 03:06:50 pm
content: Flow rate is dependent on pressure, pipe diameter, pipe routing and pipe condition.Here in the US recommended pressure is 40-60 psi (I am feeling lazy this morning, I'll let someone else convert to metric units). Some locations see mains pressures around 100 psi, although this risks bursting pipes and is usually corrected when discovered. Here in the US the most common cause of low flow from faucets is internal corrosion in old galvanized iron pipes. This can easily reduce cross sectional area by a factor of 10 or more, although usually as it gets that high someone gets annoyed and replaces the pipes.In my rural area I run off my own well. The pump limits me to about 80 liters/minute at nominally 50 psi, but at the furthest points of my plumbing, after several pipe diameter reductions (from roughly 5 cm in primary feed down to roughly 1 cm in final leg), roughly 100 meters of piping, multiple right angle bends and a couple of inline filters, the flow at my shower was closer to one liter per minute. It was so bad that I placed a 100 liter accumulator to sustain pressure during a shower. Not a fundamental solution, but far easier than re-piping the entire system.Who knows what kind of flow was available in these apartments.

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2018, 05:24:46 pm
content: Quote from: CatalinaWOW on June 09, 2018, 03:06:50 pmThat's 276-414kPa, but the more traditional units of the water manometer (i.e. 'head' of water) are probably more helpful here: 92-138 feet of water or 28-42 metres of water.

author: Yansi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2018, 06:13:19 pm
content: We have around 400kPa (+-50) here. Thats about those 60 PSI.100 pisses is not gonna burst any pipes (not sure about the rotten copper ones and that funny plastic always leaking PEX we do not fortunately see here). Some larger cities use higher head at the main, like about 145 pisses (1MPa), of course reducing regulators are regularly used at these places.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2018, 06:20:16 pm
content: Oh boy, let's not be using these kPa things. I'm a chemical engineer and I use those units all the time for calculations, but I don't use them in everyday life for normal measurements.I grew up in England measuring tyre pressures in psi and I know exactly what 60 psi feels like. My water supply to my house has a pressure regulator in the supply line and it's set to about 80 psi. That's perhaps a bit on the high side as the water flow from taps is very vigorous, but it's OK. I could imagine 60 psi would be less noisy and less energetic.

author: Yansi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2018, 07:28:59 pm
content: I was grown in a strictly metric country. Hence kPa, bar and meter. We do not use fractions of whatever body part.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2018, 07:52:36 pm
content: Personally I'm familiar with bar and psi but it only takes a few seconds to look up the conversions to other units. Let's not turn this into one of those stupid metric vs imperial debates! It's trivial to convert from one unit to the other so it makes no difference what the units are, as long as they're clearly given.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2018, 11:05:30 pm
content: Yeah, with all the issues about availability of water for fire fighting it is far easier to argue about units.Since Yansi is fond of pisses I will point out that 100 pisses doesn't actually burst pipes that are in good condition. But in connection with water hammer it does cause seals, membranes in control valves, degraded pipes and most particularly the feeble connections in drip irrigation systems to fail much more frequently. Clearly there is a mean failure level with a distribution and 60 pisses is apparently 4 sigma or more from the mean, while 100 pisses is closer to two or three sigma. The difference in failure rate is very noticeable.In a country with a high percentage of new construction the statistics might make 100 pisses a very sustainable pressure. Others mileage may vary, as might those in areas where construction standards are lower.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2018, 01:14:33 am
content: Actually, units are a little bit relevant. Someone above mentioned about measuring water pressure in feet of head.Now 60 psi is about 140 ft of water, and the Grenfell Tower apartment block is 221 ft high. That means residents at the top of the tower would not get any water pressure (or any water at all) unless special measures were taken. The special measures might include special booster pumps to get the water up to the top, and probably some kind of reservoir cistern at the top to hold a buffer of water.This also means that retro-fitting fire sprinklers would not have been a simple exercise. Probably a much larger reservoir tank would be needed at the top of the tower and/or large fire water booster pumps would be needed in the basement and extra piping up to each floor.It becomes interesting to realize that if you have 80 psi in your water main, it will climb to about 185 ft and then stop. If you are at 190 ft you are not going to see any water.

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2018, 03:47:41 am
content: Tall buildings over 100 years ago had steam-powered water pumps to get water to the higher levels:

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2018, 05:21:45 am
content: Ouch. The scraping noises on that thing sound horrible. It seems to need a bit of refurbishment and some lubrication before it grinds itself to dust...

author: Yansi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2018, 09:18:40 am
content: Quote from: CatalinaWOW on June 09, 2018, 11:05:30 pmFrom my experience with water mains in cities (am quite often near construction sites), most (all) failures (I have seen) are related to ground stress, not pressure. Pipes burst because of the ground movement (badly constructed soil under the pipes, big rocks or bricks left under piping) or other such stress fractures. Never seen or heard about pipes rupturing due to pressure. There is simply not enough pressure to do so. Even for the century old cast iron ones.The credit to pissy and pisses goes to AvE.http://ave.getforge.io/(I thought you knew it).

author: stj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2018, 10:56:28 am
content: a lot of broken pipes in the u.k. are caused by stupid local council's obsession with "speed humps"these things act like a downward swinging hammer every time a bus or truck go over them.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2018, 02:11:56 pm
content: I completely agree that mains piping rarely (if ever) fails from internal pressure. But I have personally observed all of the mentioned failure modes in distribution plumbing. The failures in piping itself are arguable. They were well on their way to failure at any pressure, but higher pressure definitely hastened their demise. Whether it was days, months or years would take someone much smarter and knowledgeable than me to answer.For an example that everyone can agree with think of a poorly bonded PVC joint. I have watched these fail as I cranked pressure up in a system.

author: Yansi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2018, 02:25:08 pm
content: PVC pipes for drinking (pressurized) water seems to be only US thing (no PEX here either). I do not know of any place here where they are used. We use "polyfusion" welded polyethylene/polypropylene piping instead. It is very reliable. I'd say way more than any glued joints.Also I can't say much about the reliability of copper pipes, as they are used here regularly only for domestic heating mainly. Not so often for drinking water or gas. But when I see them used in these applications, a lot of times they are not soldered, there are crimped connections.So I can't say much about the PVC glued stuff, as we use PVC only for drains in the domestic areas, polypropylene used in the roads as sewer pipes. Haven't heard of much failures there either, compared to the old "rock/clay/ceramic" piping that breaks way easily.Would be interesting to compare some real figures of the reliability of these different technologies.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2018, 06:40:36 pm
content: Reliability would be a neat bit of information, but also complex. I know water chemistry and temperature are big players, both of which vary widely.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2018, 12:48:57 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on June 10, 2018, 01:14:33 amThe units are arbitrary. For example, in SI units, the building is 67.4m high, so the water pressure needs to be at least 661kPa, in order for it to reach the top of the building. Of course, in practise, it needs to be much higher than that, otherwise there will be hardly any flow.You're right about the water pressure being an issue. One of the booster pumps had failed and was awaiting repair, which did impede fire fighting. The fire brigade would have had a high pressure pump though.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2018, 02:13:12 pm
content: Quote from: Hero999 on June 11, 2018, 12:48:57 pmYeah, on looking back I didn't quite explain clearly enough.If the building is 67.4 m high the water pressure needs to be at least 67.4 m of head for it to reach the top of the building. If the pressure is measured as head then it directly tells the height of a column of liquid without doing any multiplies or conversions.