LED LIGHTS. Any good flicker free ones? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: bigfoot22
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 20, 2023, 10:25:55 am
content: deleted

author: BrianHG
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 20, 2023, 10:57:33 am
content: I thought the cheap led lights flicker at 100/120hz, not 50/60hz.

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 20, 2023, 11:00:50 am
content: If you want zero flicker, illuminate your room using recessed LED strip running on DC. (normal type, not addressable)

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 20, 2023, 01:24:51 pm
content: Quote from: bigfoot22 on January 20, 2023, 12:24:36 pmSuch a high color temperature is going to have a lot of blue light. Look for "warm white" LEDs, with a color temperature of less than 3500K.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 20, 2023, 01:26:23 pm
content: I've used HPM/Legrand downlights in my home for years. Zero flicker, at any dim level, even on video.LED Benchmark is a great resource:http://www.ledbenchmark.com/index.html

author: rdl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 20, 2023, 09:16:53 pm
content: 6500k is very blue. Normal "Daylight" is generally considered to be 5000k. Personally I think even 5000k is too blue, at least for indoors after sunset. Maybe you should try one of the adjustable kind.

author: Benta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 20, 2023, 10:13:44 pm
content: 6500 K is extreme, even for "cool white".Personally I prefer "warm white", which is 2700 K (Osram). No flicker at all, BTW.

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 20, 2023, 10:47:03 pm
content: Quote from: rdl on January 20, 2023, 09:16:53 pmYeah, mid-day sunlight is 5000-5500k, there is zero reason to purchase a 6500k bulb unless its for some specific efficiency reason.Surprised they even make them:http://honnex-go.com/productsshow.asp?id=823

author: rdl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 20, 2023, 11:51:14 pm
content: I remember years ago a study done by Philips where the conclusion was that for street lighting something around 4100-4300k was probably the best choice. That has surely biased me because I think down below 3000k is too yellow and 5000K or higher is way too blue. I think the LED bulb manufacturers went a bit overboard in making LED bulbs look the same as incandescent.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 21, 2023, 01:47:50 am
content: I like higher color temperatures for task lighting and lower for relaxing in living spaces. 5000k is perfect for kitchen, laundry rooms and garage. 6500k is nice for directed task lighting like a workbench, I find colors really pop under a good 6500k source, it's also the standard for white on TV and film.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 21, 2023, 01:59:41 am
content: I always choose "warm white" (2700 K). I much prefer the warm relaxing light quality, similar to incandescent light. Anything like 5000 K or daylight, I find almost painful to experience. It's cold, clinical, industrial, harsh.Another important thing is, whatever color temperature you choose, make sure it has a good CRI, 90+ or 95+, for good color rendition. That is also really important for eye comfort.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 21, 2023, 02:41:47 am
content: Quoteyou are aware the el cheapo standard florry fittings flickers?its good enough to be a safety issue with rotating machines.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 21, 2023, 06:39:02 am
content: Did any T5 fixtures over there use magnetic ballasts? Here the T8 lamps 4' and larger have always been electronic ballast and so have the larger T5 lamps. The only time I saw magnetic ballasts was with lamps small enough to use a choke and now those are all gone due to regulations mandating electronic ballasts. I'm not convinced there was a benefit to moving small lamps from choke ballasts to the cheap nasty electronic ballasts that are unreliable RFI bombs but it is what it is.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 21, 2023, 08:33:31 am
content: Wow. The stark white glare of the light in your work area gives me a headache just from looking at the photo. Sooner you than me.IMHO, colours "popping" is more to do with the CRI than to do with the colour temperature.I have GE "High Definition" and Philips "Ultra Definition" bulbs, both in warm white, that give very nice colour rendition in spite of the warm tone.

author: EPAIII
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 21, 2023, 09:14:37 am
content: I changed all the incandescent tubes in my house and shop to the Sunco brand LEDs sold on the web. They can be connected directly to the AC power so I also removed all the ballasts. This not only improves reliability but also is more efficient as the ballasts eat up power. I did not need to change the fixtures, but did replace two due to broken plastic lenses. More light in all areas with fewer bulbs. I now have two or three tubes in the four tube fixtures.Zero problems for over three years now. No dimming. No flicker - I had a lot before the change. No problems of any type. One thing I have noticed is they will glow for a second or two after being turned off. So they probably have a longer persistence than many brands.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 21, 2023, 09:30:39 am
content: Quote from: bigfoot22 on January 21, 2023, 09:15:25 amNo, I have actually tried "daylight" fluorescent tubes, but I really don't like them. Just personal preference. I have Philips warm white (3000 K) T12 tubes in my garage with a CRI of 88 and I find the light quite pleasant. I hope they last, because it seems fluorescent tubes are going to be banned before long and LEDs will be the only option.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 21, 2023, 09:50:14 am
content: Maybe buy bulb models also available in EU. Significantly flickery bulbs are prohibited here and every bulb must have a test report (fiche) like thishttps://www.v-tac.eu/images/certificates/Fiche/217351.pdfThe easiest way to test for flickering is with smartphone camera with anti banding disabled. Also if bulb has an SMPS inside, it should be flicker-free.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 22, 2023, 12:29:32 am
content: Quote from: EPAIII on January 21, 2023, 09:14:37 amLED lights will glow visibly on a shockingly low amount of current. The LED shop light over my workbench glows dimly when it's switched off due to capacitive coupling. The lights in my girlfriend's kitchen have the switch on the neutral (a can of worms I've been meaning to open at some point) and the LED fixture I installed glows noticeably when it's off.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 22, 2023, 12:31:48 am
content: Quote from: bigfoot22 on January 21, 2023, 09:15:25 amThere are two types of LED retrofit tubes on the market. One type is meant to work with the original ballast in place, and the other type you bypass the ballast and wire it straight to the line. Both fit in the existing fixtures. I have some Philips LED tubes in my kitchen and they work well, elsewhere I've stuck with the T8 fluorescent, I've always been fascinated by lighting and LEDs while great are unfortunately a bit boring.

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 22, 2023, 12:34:23 am
content: Once you go LED strip you never go back.Get some good quality strips and be done with it, ideally 3x (warm white, cool white and amber) for mixing as desired.Or you can go high CRI warm white + RGB strip.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 22, 2023, 12:35:15 am
content: Personally I think LED strips are kind of boring, and most of them have poor CRI.

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 22, 2023, 12:38:52 am
content: You can go the ultra high CRI LED strip if you want. But they are really expensive compared to non high CRI strips.YUJI LEDs does them, but you're looking at like $80-140 for 5 meters of 95+CRI 16.8W/m 1200lm/mhttps://store.yujiintl.com/products/cri-max-cri-95-dim-to-warm-led-flexible-strip-1800k-3000k-human-centric-lightinghttps://store.yujiintl.com/collections/high-cri-white-led-strips/products/cri-max-cri-95-high-efficacy-high-brightness-led-flexible-strip-5600kIt's not really that expensive when you consider it should last 20+ years, especially if you ensure the LED junction temps are under 50C.With LED strips the heat is not concentrated all in one spot like with a normal LED lamp, so strips last effectively forever if used correctly.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 22, 2023, 12:40:47 am
content: Quoteand the type were you need to replace or bypass the starter

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 22, 2023, 01:04:30 am
content: Quote from: themadhippy on January 22, 2023, 12:40:47 amI wonder why? Starters have not been a thing here for lamps larger than 18" for around half a century when rapid start autotransformer ballasts took over, but when a starter is used it is wired between one of the pins on one end of the lamp and one of the pins on the other end with power going to the remaining pins through a choke. I can't think of a reason off hand that simply removing the starter would not be sufficient.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 22, 2023, 01:12:36 am
content: Quote from: Psi on January 22, 2023, 12:34:23 amI might be forced to go that way eventually, but the fluorescents I have in my garage produce a claimed 5200 lumens per fixture (2600 lumens per tube), and a fixture draws 54 W, giving about 96 lumens per watt. This lm/W figure seems comparable with typical LEDs and the illumination is very comfortable on the eyes. It doesn't have any of that harsh, green, industrial feel that many fluorescents have.

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 22, 2023, 01:23:25 am
content: Quote from: IanB on January 22, 2023, 01:12:36 amA friend just bought like 30 meters of cheap china natural white LED strip and put them along the exposed wooden roof columns in his garage. About 8 lengths of 4m. He says it's the best thing ever, crazy bright and light everywhere.We dropped the voltage on his metal cage PSU to get the temp under 50C so should last forever.This guy reviews LED strips from aliexpress. So you can check out which aliexpress sellers have decent ones.And he has links to them.https://quinled.info/

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 22, 2023, 01:58:08 am
content: Quotehere being the operative word,switch start florrys are still a thing here in the uk,ok not so common for new installs but theirs still plenty of em kicking aroundQuotehttps://youtu.be/saYtnaBp4QA?t=936

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 22, 2023, 02:08:35 am
content: Quote from: themadhippy on January 22, 2023, 01:58:08 am"Here" just explains why I don't know the answer, I know that starters are still in widespread use in 240V land.I still don't understand why the tubes are wired such that the starter needs to be replaced. It would be trivial for a retrofit tube to have the pins on each end shorted together and take power from both ends of the tube, the way the type that is meant to use the original ballast are wired. Then simply remove the starter. Instead that video indicates they're using tubes that take power from only one end, the other end is just a shorting jumper and then you have to bypass the starter too.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 22, 2023, 02:11:51 am
content: Quote from: themadhippy on January 22, 2023, 01:58:08 amI think there's a significant difference between fluorescent light fittings in 240 V lands vs. 120 V lands. Having 240 V available completely changes (changed) the design of the fittings. I would need to check into it, but I think 240 V is enough to strike a large tube by itself, whereas 120 V is too low and needs help? I believe what happened is that starters in the UK simply apply the full 240 V across the tube to strike it, while in the USA a step-up transformer was needed. This additional cost accelerated the phasing out of traditional starters in North America, while allowing them to last a lot longer in the UK.That said, the updated light fittings I put in my garage with electronic ballasts are impressive. The tubes simply light up when you flick the switch, with no start up delay or warm up time at all. They are just like incandescents, full brightness immediately. I don't know what magic sauce they put in the ballasts, but whatever it is, it seems to work.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 22, 2023, 02:14:51 am
content: Quotecovered in the video, but ,for those with short attention span -safety ,you get one end in and your trying to get the other end in and touch the pins,you aint turned the switch off so and your in series with the led and earth.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 22, 2023, 02:15:40 am
content: Quote from: james_s on January 22, 2023, 02:08:35 amIf you took power from both ends of the tube in a traditional fitting with magnetic ballast, wouldn't that put the LED strip in series with the ballast? That might work if the LED strip was designed with that in mind, but then it might not work with electronic ballasts that have instant start. I imagine the designers have to cater for users who are not familiar with such details, and have to make things that uninformed users cannot screw up?

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 22, 2023, 02:17:34 am
content: Quote from: themadhippy on January 22, 2023, 02:14:51 amIsn't that already the case with a normal tube? Why should it matter if it happens to be an LED replacement instead of a normal tube replacement?

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 22, 2023, 02:18:39 am
content: QuoteHPV

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 22, 2023, 02:22:55 am
content: Quoteno,on a traditional florry all thats between the pins is a coil of wire ,theres no connection in the tube from end to end

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 22, 2023, 02:35:46 am
content: Quote from: themadhippy on January 22, 2023, 02:22:55 amGranted, but you could still touch one pin while the other pin has already made contact with the socket?It rather seems like Darwin award stuff, since sane people only hold the glass when installing a tube. Electricity is dangerous, you know? Touching exposed metal parts is not a good idea.But I get it, there is no accounting for people...

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 22, 2023, 03:53:22 am
content: Quote from: themadhippy on January 22, 2023, 02:14:51 amWho does that? Are the sockets different there? Here you slide the tube in both ends at the same time and then twist it and the pins engage with the contacts. You're always supposed to turn off the switch when relamping but in practice it's rarely an issue. Whatever the case the LED retrofit tubes I have in my kitchen are exactly this way, power is fed from each end of the tube and it requires no modification to the fixture at all, it uses the original electronic ballast to regulate the current and you can even use a mix of fluorescent and LED tubes if you wanted to. It never occurred to me that some would be different.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 22, 2023, 03:59:22 am
content: Quote from: IanB on January 22, 2023, 02:15:40 amYes but so what? A choke coil in series with an LED lamp that draws less power than the original tube will result in only a modest voltage drop, the lamp could easily be designed to account for that without sacrificing its ability to operate direct from the line without a choke. If a retrofit tube requires modifying the fixture in any way then you might as well remove the ballast entirely and feed power directly to the tube sockets.Actually those tubes that get power from one end only and have the ballast bypassed present a significant flaw, if somebody ever installs a standard fluorescent tube in the fixture you're going to have the full 240V mains across the cathode and that's going to go bang. Typically they operate at only a few volts, limited in preheat fixtures by the current that the ballast choke can pass.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 22, 2023, 06:02:05 am
content: Quote from: james_s on January 22, 2023, 03:59:22 amGot that, but I think electronic ballasts might work like a switching power supply at a much higher frequency than normal, and then the LED lamp would have be be able to operate with that? (I don't know for sure, but at a guess the kind of electronic ballast I have might be a high frequency AC constant current supply with a very high compliance voltage. This would explain the instant on, no warm up behavior of the tubes. It would treat the lamp as a gas discharge tube like a neon tube. If this were the case, the LED replacement would be subjected to the same constant current that the ballast demanded.)

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 22, 2023, 12:12:10 pm
content: Quote from: bigfoot22 on January 22, 2023, 07:00:31 amLED bulbs are 2-4 times more efficient. During it's lifetime energy consumption difference is much more than any additional recycled materials could possibly be worth it. Not to say other than glass from the tube, I don't see any difference between them in regards of materials to be recycled. Recycling is a complete bullshit for the most part. The vast majority of materials still go to the landfill and resulting materials are usually lower quality, often more expensive than raw materials, and considering resources spent on recycling not that green to begin with. It makes a lot of sense to recycle metals but oher than that it's more like whitewashing and what makes you feel good about yourself.

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 22, 2023, 12:33:40 pm
content: Quote from: bigfoot22 on January 22, 2023, 07:00:31 amThe problem with currently available LED bulbs is they always run way too hot due to being very compact.The driver overheats, capacitors fail and the LED die ages super fast.You could say it's just a cost savings measure or planned obsolescence.But in any case, a LED bulb that should last well over 15 years lasts 2 years, maybe 5 years for a really good brand.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 22, 2023, 12:40:06 pm
content: Quote from: bigfoot22 on January 22, 2023, 12:26:19 pmYou forgot about ballasts and large enclosures they come with. Not to say there are hell a lot more of materials used for the same light output. I personally mostly use cheap LED bulbs from IKEA which have 138lm/w.https://www.ikea.lv/en/products/kitchen/kitchen-lighting/light-bulbs/solhetta-led-bulb-e14-470-lumen-opal-white-art-00498735

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 22, 2023, 12:50:41 pm
content: Quote from: bigfoot22 on January 22, 2023, 12:26:19 pmHigh efficiency bulbs also run way less hot, so higher price should be compensated by lifetime.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 22, 2023, 12:53:04 pm
content: Quote from: bigfoot22 on January 22, 2023, 12:40:55 pmIn practice fluerescent electronic ballasts often fail faster than ballasts in LED bulbs despite them running very hot due to compact size. One should get LED light fixture for new installations, those run quite cool so should last much longer than retrofit LED bulbs.

author: deadlylover
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 22, 2023, 01:18:30 pm
content: I'm using theCutter optisolis strips. In terms of light quality it's basically as good as it gets. Decent value too if you happen to be in Australia I don't know how bad shipping is overseas. It's on a proper MCPCB not those crappy flexible strips.Powered using a Meanwell LED driver with a pot to control brightness. Unfortunately I find myself being nocturnal occasionally and having high quality lighting seems to make a huge difference to my mental health as funny as that sounds.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 22, 2023, 01:26:49 pm
content: Quoteyou have to try really hard as its almost impossible,its actually easier to achieve with the twist end caps mentioned belowQuotewe,and im quessing large parts of the world also use the type that has 2 holes and held in place by a spring,top and bottom type of thing

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 22, 2023, 03:16:07 pm
content: Quote from: themadhippy on January 22, 2023, 12:40:47 amBTW, the 'LED starter' is simply a fuse. And that fuse is a good idea in case the LED retrofit is suicidal. So far I had two retrofits go bang.

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 22, 2023, 03:29:34 pm
content: Quote from: Psi on January 22, 2023, 12:33:40 pmThat's why some posters already suggested to go for 12V LED strips if feasible. Add a nice 12V LED SMPSU and you don't have to change retrofit bulbs regularly.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 22, 2023, 06:48:37 pm
content: Quote from: Psi on January 22, 2023, 12:33:40 pmYes, I have read about this before.However, I prefer subdued light for area lighting purposes, so I have all my area lights turned down on a dimmer switch and they will be running a lot cooler than full brightness. So I expect them to last a long time.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 22, 2023, 07:51:21 pm
content: Quote from: madires on January 22, 2023, 03:16:07 pmI would consider it a design flaw that the retrofit lamps don't have a fuse built in. Every screw in LED or CFL bulb I've torn down had either a fuse or a fusible resistor.

author: deadlylover
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 22, 2023, 11:01:28 pm
content: Here is a google sheets docfor high CRI LED bulb options made by the flashlight enthusiasts at budget light forum.I've always wanted to try one of the Sunlike bulbs, I like the chunky heat sinking. Maybe it's a bit tooo how ya doin' for a light fixture but I bet it'll make for a great desk lamp or photography light.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 22, 2023, 11:12:31 pm
content: You could add heat sinking to the inner bits of a regular off the shelf bulb. Back in 2012 I bought 6 of the first <$5 LED bulbs to appear on the market, disassembled them and mounted the LED boards on a 10" aluminum disk of about 1/4" thick I got out of the scrap bin at my friend's machine shop. I glued the driver boards to the underside and then attached the completed assembly into what was a 2D fluorescent torchier lamp that the ballast had blown up on. I figured I'd get a couple of years out of it but now more than a decade later it's still working just fine, it's the main light source in my living room and gets used hours virtually every day. About 3 years ago I installed a Shelly dimmer flashed with Tasmota into it in place of the switch so now it mostly gets run somewhat dimmed. I suspect it is mostly the improved cooling that has led to such exceptionally long life.

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 23, 2023, 11:51:39 am
content: This type of LED lamp is quite good too, spreads the heat out really well.I have them in my garage.

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 23, 2023, 02:09:38 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on January 22, 2023, 07:51:21 pmThe PSUs of the two broken retrofits had fuses. The problem is that you never know until you take them apart.Anyhow, the broken retrofits are upcycled with 12V LED strips for workbench lighting. They are nicely made with an aluminium profile and acrylic glass.

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 23, 2023, 10:37:40 pm
content: Quote from: bigfoot22 on January 21, 2023, 07:04:45 amThe ergonomics of that workspace look horrific:- A bright light right in front of your face causing hot spots bouncing off various equipment on the side- PC blocking your legs from moving around- A desk thats too low for the chair requiring you to hunch over6500k is not a "requirement" for a work area.https://www.ikioledlighting.com/blogs/cct_led_lights

author: Zucca
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 24, 2023, 03:38:56 am
content: Did not read the entire thread, so if it is already mentioned I beg for mercy.Please, Lord have mercy on my I am a sinner, if you are illuminating the Lab with LEDDO NOT use cheap ass LED driver/bulbs from china!I did, they looked and felt okay in my hands.... but when I turn them on my scope can't trigger anymore in a stable way.They crap my entire Lab with EMI like an AM radio tower from the '60.No it's not noise from the mains lines, it's something related to the secondary and no matter how many C or L I out on the output it is always there.Since they were slim design, they did not care about the loop area after the high voltage trafo...Yes I tried with ferrite clamps but it's like curing a cancer patient with orange juice.Yes I tried with alu tape, but no joy.Tons of video on YT, this is the one I like the mostEDIT: I just bought some nice and $$$ Mean Well RSP series PSU.... I let you know how they goes....

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 24, 2023, 11:21:22 am
content: It's not rocket science to build your own customized table or work bench. Just saying.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 24, 2023, 12:41:06 pm
content: Quoteindeed,and looking at the picture id be tempted to rotate the work space 90 degrees,might end up with a smaller space buy you gain a solid wall for shelf to get a lot of stuff up ff the bench

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 24, 2023, 10:52:32 pm
content: Quote from: bigfoot22 on January 24, 2023, 06:02:06 amYes lab benches are very common at any sort of electronics, chemistry, assembly workplace. They are really tall, and chairs will have adjustable rests for your feet:https://www.atvilla.com/AT-Villa/Photography/Ergolab/Ergolab_059.jpgBut if you just want a small desk, an adjustable height unit is another option. Thats what I use at home, was about $200 though.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 26, 2023, 05:56:53 pm
content: The biggest issue with magnetic ballasts is flicker, especially in 50Hz areas. They do tend to be more reliable though.

author: rdl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 26, 2023, 08:20:35 pm
content: Back in the nineties the lab where I worked was remodeled. The contractor wanted to replace most of the fluorescent lights with new ones that had electronic ballasts. My boss refused to have them, claiming he could hear a hum from the newer type. I couldn't tell any difference but we ended up keeping the old fixtures after all. Probably saved a lot of money too.