Owon XDS3202E vs Siglent SDS1202X-E - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: oleh
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2017, 12:18:09 am
content: I bought both, Owon XDS3202E and Siglent SDS1202X-E, on Amazon recently. Just wanted to find a cheap and good entry level scope for a home lab. First I bought Siglent, but a lot of ADs looking messages there and here made me suspicious. And I decided to give a try to this one from Owon: XDS3202E. It looks like, just appeared. Zero reviews on Amazon. I just put one on top of another and connected to "bad" unstable signal coming from a china-made 2000PPR incremental encoder driven by a stepper. After some first impressions- Owon won!. This poor, little known guy is performing much better. Let me add a photo:And video:Both scopes had close as possible settings.Owon XDS3202E is similar to shown several weeks on this site XDS3202A. The same poor meter and signal generators on the back, and the same collection of connectors. But 8-bit ADC. Judging by the content of binary dump files this scope produces, it writes two bytes per sample, I have not opened the cover yet, but it could have a good potential for an upgrade.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2017, 12:25:41 am
content: Welcome to the forum.You don't say if you have updated the SDS1202X-E with the latest firmware, it's only been out a couple of weeks.http://www.siglentamerica.com/USA_website_2014/Firmware&Software/SDS1000X-E_5.1.3.13.zip

author: oleh
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2017, 12:58:38 am
content: Quote from: tautech on August 03, 2017, 12:25:41 amThank you!I actually did firmware upgrade (one released on 7/18).Both scopes were set to one second persistence, but Siglent was somehow slow in this mode. I suspect that SoC installed in Owon is faster if it the same Sitara which we sow in the XSD3202A model. There are several Debian branches for the Sitara platform. Also, Sitara has two real-time co-processors.

author: rf-loop
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2017, 06:21:07 am
content: Quote from: oleh on August 03, 2017, 12:58:38 amYou tell there are as same settings as possible. Well, even I with my wooden eyes can see this is not true. Why Owon looks in video so slow. If you see in live, this Owon is more fast with this setup, it is perhaps visual illusion. Measure it and there is truth. Both scopes have trig out.Also this need think. Your trigger event counter tell around 4.8kHz. This is limiting factor for scope waveform update speed least with Siglent what can do acquisitions nearly 20 times faster when you use dots mode as you use also in Owon. Also when I look this video, it looks like Siglent wins wfm/s speed just hands down.Then you can do some thing, even with this same signal and same speed setting.Turn both scopes then on. Wait example 10 seconds. Stop scope.Look what happen 5 second before you stop scope. Look it with owon and siglent. What you see. Show me waveform what scope was acquired around 5 or ten seconds before stop.Then next. Turn both scopes to 1ms/div. Max memory, One channel in use.input signal what have known 100ns wide pulses with exaqmple 10ns rise and fall times and frequency something...example 1MHz.Do not use zoom. Just normal window.Turn automatic measurements on and ask scope tell pulse width and rise and fall times.Tell me Sigent and Owon result.But if look single thing. Persistence. This Owon do "better" than Siglent or least my XDS3102A do. Better because in my version persistence decay use intensity stepping.Then, Owon do not have fast segment acquisition mode, as it also do not have normal mode waveform history buffer.Siglent also use full raw adc data for measurements and even more, it decimate raw data much less than owon for display, this is why Siglent intensity gradation is lot of over Owon. But you need some time to realize it after you learn how both equipments need use so that both can give best they can. Owon use highly decimated data for measurements.Then if you look FFT. Try this with Owon.455kHz signal AM modulated with 100Hz and 120Hz. Mod depth 20%.Try with Owon.Then here one example about measurements, Siglent use full memory data, not display data for measurements and also not other way decimated data.25ns pulses, rise and fall 10ns.Try with Owon.Then turn Zoom on with same signal and settings, like this, 1ms/div and zoom 1ns/divHow is Owon. zoomed window signal trig rock solid or what? Or can you do this at all.Then try 200MHz sinewave using 1mV/div. Example signal true input level 6mVp-p roughly 2.12mVrms or roughly -40dBm to 50ohm (for this Siglent need external feed thru terminator).What you see with Owon, what you see with Siglent. (I do not have 200MHz Owon. BUt afaik Owon may force BW on and you can not even turn it off.)Then, look Owon if you can see true adc data points in display. Or do it produce some fake points between true sample points in dots mode also. Capture some fast edges signal using some speed and memory set for 250MSa/s or 500MSa/s. Stop scope and zoom in using full screen mode, so that sample interval is least half div or better if 1 to 2 div. After then switch vectors on and off and also same with Sin(x)/x on and off in vectors (lines) mode.After then ask Owon if they are really serious with it. But yes, it have not so bad joke what Rigol do.Siglent do it like professional test equipment must do. Without flushing to trash can real sample points and drawing art image over ADC raw "truth".But, Owon have done some things also well, not all bad.

author: JPortici
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2017, 10:41:07 am
content: They should put on a disclaimer: never get high before using the owon. mesmerizing.There was a discussion here recently about "persistence" and apparently there are two philosofies, one that calculates decay in "events" and for example set at 1 second it expect to have continous triggers and decay to roughly 1 second, less events and decay fall more slowly... and the other where 1 second means 1 second.It appears to me that the owon is using one philosophy, the siglent the other. A quick way to find out could be to have less frequent triggers.for example: persistence in keysight's megazoom scopes like the 3000t is "true" persistence, a sporadic acquisitions in normall mode will still have the old waveform decay in the programmed time. Persistence in lecroy's scope however is using the other method, events... but they don't write a "fake" time for decay. you explicitely set the numbers of events.which is better? i don't care, if i set up persistence i set it to infinite, i rarely use variable persistence

author: oleh
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 04, 2017, 01:21:00 am
content: I decided to conduct couple quick "trigger output" tests. Both scopes demonstrated similar top waveform rate (Owon- 83K, Siglent was jumping between 72k and 83k). I found only two factors which affect waveform rate the most: vector interpolation and length of acquittance buffer. Owon demonstrated following time intervals:12 us - 1000 points.25 us - 10k points,100 us - 100k points,1 ms - 1m points,10 ms - 10m points,20 ms - 20m points,40 ms - 40 m points.When Owon uses vector interpolation, interval between trigger events goes from 12 to 24 us with 1k points. With bigger buffers the difference was not as significant.Siglent didn't want go go higher than 10k waveforms/sec when vector interpolation was enabled regardless what I did.When buffer was other that 700 on Siglent, waveform rate was also dropping to around 10k.One more difference: when Owon uses some sort of round-robin buffer in order to store samples, Siglent does not store more point than you can see on its screen. For example, Siglent stores only 14 (fourteen) point with 1ns/div! Maybe I did something wrong? I will appreciate any suggestions.I made some more photos:Owon demonstrates 83k trigger rate.One of the best results from Siglent.Siglent drops trigger rate to around 10k when number of points was increased from 700 to 1400Siglent, 280 points, 20 ns/div. The Trigger rate went up to 13k/sec.

author: rf-loop
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 04, 2017, 03:31:59 am
content: Here is SDS1202X-E wfm/s table.Then:QuoteFor what need more? With 1ns/div there is one sample for one div in display. All what is outside of window is invisible and just waste. Owon screen have also 14 data points with this setting or is it 15.If want more long waveform just turn slower timebase. Without touching acquisition memory length there is 1ns resolution available down to 1ms/div. For what need unvisible anquisition length when you are wieving signal on the live screen. Oh yes, in stop mode you can pan and zoom this part what is out of screen in Owon. With Siglent in other hand, you set enough slow timebase and in stop mode then zoom to details. Final result is that all same can observe with Owon and Siglent.Due to differencies in this, Owon and Siglent need slightly different way to operate. Rear-wheel drive and front-wheel drive car need also bit different way to optimal drive in some cases.Also dferent scopes give optimal result when also drive differently. Try same settings with HP and Tektronix. If operate Tektronix way what is optimal for HP.... oh well you find tons of these advertisements in HP application notes where HP win always Tek - and vice versa..Then, Siglent also store to memory every single acquisition. Example with 1ns/div setting it keep laast 80000 waveforms in memory. You stop scope and you can play back these using history viewer. And in history, this is not only display data, it is raw ADC data so you can also do full resolution measurements and even FFT for for every single wfm in history buffer. You can also change display mode with Sinc, vector or only dots (what are in siglent case raw ADC dots) also usefil in some special cases if suspect Sinc produced "fakes".With Owon you stop scope and you can not look what have been previous couple of acquisitions before you stop scope. This is quite powerful feature in some cases. But more sophisticated this same function exist example in Rohde&Schwarz RTO models.But, so or so. Owon is fast, this can not deny. If look overall with more settings, including zoom etc. Owon is amazing fast.I can not test other Owon models but just XDS3102A. But I have old FW where is not even intensity gradadation or color gradation.For my serial number (very early version) I can not find FW uopdates. Very pity. I can not understand at all this Owon policy.But then, I do not like it add lot of extra dots when I turn it to dots mode. I can not force it to show sampled adc data points. It is just mixed there inside lot of fake dots.What I like in Owon is its speed when zoom window is in use. Also I like how it divide display area. Because, when I zoom, I think zoomed window is what I am more intersted. So, Owon make zoomed window vertical more height than unzoomed upper window. Siglent divide display just half what is not so nice. Most nice is if I can select zoomed and unzoomed window vertical height for 1:1 or 2:1 or 1:2 depending what is important to my different needs.In my Owon version also trigger time position errors are unacceptable. Whe I change memory setting and or time scale then point where signal crosses trigger level is wrong. There is some problen in Owon waveform time positioning to trigger time position..Example if I use main timebase 50ns and zoom window timebase 2ns (my model do not have 1ns) there is 1ns (half div) position error. And this is just one example. There is many, more or less severe trigger position errors. It looks like it do not at all trigger position fine interpolation inside sample interval. This need do for every separate wfm before stack it to display memory. Yes, jump over this very important work can perhaps do things more fast but result is - junk. Siglent do. If example I set main timebase 1ms and zoom to 1ns/div. It have not 1ns steps for adjust time position in zoomed window. Siglent fine interpolate, in this case, trigger time position inside sample interval with 20ps raster. But it is also more slow due to this or other reasons.Both have good things. Both have bad things.And Owon TFT itself. Its display quality is best what I have ever seen in this kind of price group. It have been this also in history when Owon launch old SDS7102. TFT image itself was best available.But this can also understand. Owon is part of Lilliput company and Lilliput know bit more about displays..

author: JPortici
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 04, 2017, 06:25:37 am
content: Quote from: rf-loop on August 04, 2017, 03:31:59 amto put it another way: if you really want more memory per acquisition, slow down the timebase. as long as you are sampling at 1GS/s there is no difference in that aspect, you can always expand/zoom later. Right/wrong.. again, it's a matter of opinions.This plus the history mode always active make the siglent very simillar to how a picoscope works.. saving every past acquisition is very handy, a bit different than segmented memory, and i'm used to it because i use a pico a lot so i wouldn't find it very strange if i had a siglent

author: oleh
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2017, 01:17:17 am
content: I found one more puzzling fact:Advertised as low-noise with lowest 500uV/div Siglent demonstrated ~650uV noise when its poor brother Owon (terrible name) showed ~350uV with same settings of 1 mV/div. I calibrated both scopes before testing. You also can see some bias on the Siglents's screen.Here is the photo:

author: smarteebit
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2017, 01:42:44 am
content: Quote from: oleh on August 05, 2017, 01:17:17 amThe Owon scope has enabled bandwidth limit @ 1mV/div. You should enable bandwidth limit of the Siglent's scope by manual before comparing them.

author: oleh
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2017, 01:51:12 am
content: Quote from: smarteebit on August 05, 2017, 01:42:44 amYes. I have just came back from the basement. When both scopes are limited to 20MHz results are identical. Thank you. Owon enables that filter by itself when sensitivity is 2 mV/div or less.Thank you!

author: rf-loop
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2017, 03:33:36 am
content: Quote from: oleh on August 05, 2017, 01:17:17 amOh you did not even this what I ask in my one msg here.What otrher things you have missed what also have told?Quote from: rf-loop on August 03, 2017, 06:21:07 amBut, this must say. Owon analog front end is not bad at all. Also it was quite good in some best sub versions in SDS7000 serie (before Owon destroy it in some manufacturing lots due to some crap changes in circuits and total crap PSU design error later and never fixed these total noob style design errors. I do not anymore remember what version it was really amazing good front end, far over competitors in this time, and main problem was not in front end circuit itself, But scope was, due to many bad designed SMPS circuits and emi leaking data buses in scope, like wide band noise transmitter. This was total mess and then other mess how they handle it. Just closing eyes and ears. When this kind of manufacturer is so proud that they do not need listen any experts who try help them .. well keep your sandwitc boxes. They loose lot of or nearly destroying all reputations if they had any for long time.They was like students who do not listen teachers. When I feel I talk like to walls I stop wasting my time because they are not my childrens what I am responsible.Now next mess is this option policy. What hell they think. Nearly all options need factory install. How they can think sellers can keep every option combinations in stock. Every different option combination need order from factory. In what world they live. Other mess is with manufacturing lot sub versions. omg what mess. Nearly every lot need different FW version. What are they smoking.

author: oleh
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2017, 06:58:34 pm
content: I want to add some sort of AM test. I don't have anything what cam make desired AM signal, so I used built-in arbitrary generator which is coming with this Owon scope. Hwy not? It is free anyway. Something better in that field from Siglent, for example, is more expensive than this scope itself. I noticed some wave instability coming from this generator but it is not as significant but you can notice it. The generator from Owon produces a signal which looks funny on a scope screen but we still, can call it AM signal.Here are couple photos, I'm not sure which scope (just want to remember, both are $379) provides more informative picture:Screenshot with scopes displaying dots:Screenshot with scopes displaying vectors:Screenshot with scopes displaying FFT:

author: oleh
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2017, 07:01:42 pm
content: Quote from: rf-loop on August 05, 2017, 03:33:36 amOh, thank you. I definitely missed that. It is always good to learn something, specifically after 30-years breakBTW this Owon does not have 50 Ohm terminator. Looks like they sawed on one relay or software "feature"?

author: oleh
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2017, 01:56:34 am
content: Tonight I found one nice pulse next to a DDR memory chip. It was several nanosecond long and the duty cycle was well under 1%. That was interesting. Both cheaposcopes showed almost identical results. I was expecting at least some difference. Also, I performed a quick teardown of Owon (I was very curious about ADC and FPGA) and found that ADC is MXT2002 (overclocked?) and FPGA is Spartan 6SLX45. The analog part looks the same as in XDS3202A minus 50 Ohm relay. Question: what is better, five cheaposcopes in ten years or one brandscope, like R&S HMO1202 (was its trigger output removed because of marketing reasons?) in ten years?

author: rf-loop
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2017, 03:33:30 am
content: With this pulse running, turn t/div 1ms/div.Turn automatic measurements on.Risetime, fall time and pulse width.After then tell result.

author: oleh
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2017, 12:08:13 am
content: Quote from: rf-loop on August 07, 2017, 03:33:30 amI'm sorry, that pulse was pretty random and instead of 1ms/div I enabled x128 averaging. I hope it helped. And results are still very close. I even tried with four different probes. I don't know what the original pulse was, but results are close to theoretical 1.7 ns. I will try with 500MHz probe when it arrives if that changes anything.Please see the pictures:Siglent:Owon:Also, it is visible, that Owon uses 16 bit buffer for preprocessing. The graph is smoother on the Owon's screenshot. It could be also the case with Z-buffer "color temperature". Owon's gradients are wider there and less noisy.

author: dos
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2017, 02:53:30 am
content: Is this thread just two distributors talking past each other? I wonder what kind of person who can only afford a budget low end scope like either of these buys a second, competing brand to have two chintzy scopes, instead of say, buying a better scope. Also both of these have some god-awful industrial design, why can't Chinese scope makers go back to just copying Tek? We don't want funky knobs/strange colors/etc. Bland and inoffensive is fine. At least neither look like the Instek atrocity (but the Siglent 2000X comes close)e: wait maybe they're still copying Tek, just post-redesign

author: rf-loop
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2017, 05:03:25 am
content: Quote from: oleh on August 08, 2017, 12:08:13 amInstead of 1ms/div... but this was what I ask. Reason or other but here it is.Here is what happend.Owon get exactly same signal in as Siglent.888ns pulse period, 10ns rise time and 20ns fall time and pulse width 28ns.Owon with two t/div settings both using 1GSa/s, 1ms/div and 2us/divSiglent also same 1ms/div and 2us/div and 1GSa/sResult is clear.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2017, 05:45:39 am
content: Quote from: dos on August 08, 2017, 02:53:30 amNah, one that knows his stuff and the other can't see the wood for the trees.QuoteName one at this price point.QuoteThanks for joining this thread and speaking from your rear end.QuoteThe blind leading the blind, you've tried all these have you ?QuoteThe layout for the modern DSO has not changed for decades........it's called the ergonomics that suit this industry.

author: rf-loop
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2017, 06:39:45 am
content: Quote from: dos on August 08, 2017, 02:53:30 amQuoteQuoteQuoteAll peoles do not want spend 2-10k EUR for oscilloscope.Now explain to all of us what Tek model and what is its price can do these things what example this 400 EUR scope can do.Show me. Do not show marketing papers, show real examples.Show me Tkk model what can do over 400ksegment/s seqmented acquisition and its price.Show me Tek model what can show after oscilloscope stopped from normal acq mode up to 80000 previous acquisitions with time stamps.Here is one tiny FFT example. What Danaher low end crap can do if I try same. How much more money need before find first new Tek what can same.Here is bit over 3MHz sine modulated with 100Hz sine and modulation depth 2%. Carrier level 0dBm dBmAll we know that these are low price oscilloscopes. In this segment it is exatly so that if one need copy other I can ask who need copy who.note: there is not Owon image about FFT. It can not do this at all. Also OwonFFTuseability is near zero due to extremely badly designed and done UI. Perhaps FFT function is there only because marketing material need write there is FFT.

author: dos
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2017, 08:09:39 am
content: Quote from: tautech on August 08, 2017, 05:45:39 amI think you're misinterpreting what I'm saying. The Owon salesman up there is trying to make it seem like he's an average consumer who has an Owon he's very happy with, but bought a Siglent 1202X-E for some reason, a scope that's a similar low end class (but still OK!) as the Owon. I think that a normal consumer would rather have a better scope for the cost of the low end Owon and Siglent combined, like say a Siglent 2000X (or whatever the Owon/Rigol/Instek/etcetcetc equivalent is). By two distributors I meant rf-loop and oleh, but at least you and rf-loop are honest and put that you're a distributor in your sig. I'm sorry I don't like the way your scopes (or any recent Chinese scopes) look. You're right that it doesn't matter and the specs are good but come on they still look goofy and amateurish.e:Quote from: tautech on August 08, 2017, 05:45:39 amI'm not talking about the layout, which is fine. To go farther I actually really like the new Siglent GUI. I'm talking about the way the hardware looks and feels. It's a minor thing and I wouldn't base my own purchases too much on it but it is important and something that China has always been absolutely terrible at when they're trying to be original. I really like my SDS1072CML because from far away it might as well be a Tek or any other gear. These new designs with the strange colors etc. make it really obvious that you have a bargain basement instrument. Again not important, just an observation.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2017, 09:10:26 am
content: Quote from: dos on August 08, 2017, 08:09:39 amI have to disagree (and I'm certainly not known for being a particluar fan of Chinese B-brands), technical properties aside neither newer Siglent nor Rigol scopes look like toys. Rigol has managed to come up with a somewhat unique case design which may not necessarily be the most ergonomic but it's certainly recognizeable without looking childish, and Siglent's scopes looked pretty much like any other entry-level DSO when they were still making the old SDS1000CML/CNL, and aside from really cheap-looking knobs there's nothing goofy and it looks as solid as the hardware really is. Siglent also put a bit more emphasis on case design in the later scopes and moved to better quality knobs, all looking clean and professional.The only B-brand scopes that look like goofy toys are the Owons, pretty much all of them. Which is a shame as some have really nice features on paper (i.e. large screens, or 12bit ADCs) but they look like 'My First Scope' for the 0-3 age group, and the build quality seems to fit that as well.QuoteAgain, I disagree. Siglent has shown over and over again that they can build solid, good quality hardware at decent prices, right back to the old SDS1000CL scopes and the SDG1000 Series of AWGs. I'd even go as far as to say that their quality level can easily keep up with what the big A-brands provide in the same class.Hardware quality would be my last worry with Siglent (my main and pretty much only concern would be software quality).And Rigol, while having make some really stupid mistakes in the hardware design of some of their scopes, should be considered to be equally solid.With OWON however, I would worry a lot about the build quality, in addition to the software.QuoteYes, because that's exactly what they tried to copy - an old Tek scope.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2017, 09:59:35 am
content: Quote from: dos on August 08, 2017, 08:09:39 amSales volumes paint a very different picture.......define normal.Entry level DSO's outsell mid and high range models 10:1.QuoteUnderstood and disagree.That they dare to look different from historical brands is a good thing as each of their looks is part of their branding.Quote from: dos on August 08, 2017, 08:09:39 amOK, personal taste and might I suggest familiarity with what you have.We dealers that sell for more than just sales have the benefit using our demo models as personal units and quickly learn/find the better functionality of the new models......but just as some like to drive old cars, some like to drive old scopes.We learn to change our thoughts quickly by the large # of models we handle and also need some familiarity with. New models COST us time, time that we can then share here and to/with potential customers.Over the years I have sold many dozens of C*L Siglents and early on got a SDS2000 as my personal unit when the GUI was different from what we see today in all the X and X-E models. The GUI we see today was introduced initially in SDS2000 models via a firmware update and has remained and been improved on until today. It was a significant improvement of earlier Siglent GUI's, over both the earlier SDS2000 and SDS1000C*L models. So much so that I no longer stock C*L models as the X series current GUI and the OSD is far more advanced than any of the C*L's.The old C*L DSO's GUI is not in the same street.

author: dos
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2017, 11:06:15 am
content: Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on August 08, 2017, 09:10:26 amI agree that Rigol has good design, their scopes look the least like toys out of all the Chinese makers to my eyes. Now if only they would catch up with where Siglent and the rest are in terms of responsiveness on their low end models. Do you not think Instek scopes look weird? Have a look at their latest models if you think the Owon looks bad. That's really the sort of thing I'm talking about. I would say in terms of looks it goes Keysight>Tek>LeCroy>>>>Rigol>Siglent>Owon>InstekQuote from: Wuerstchenhund on August 08, 2017, 09:10:26 amI am not talking about build quality, which I know is fine for Siglent and Rigol at least, just the impression the scope's design gives.Quote from: tautech on August 08, 2017, 09:59:35 amYou arestillmisunderstanding what I'm saying. I'm not saying it's abnormal to buy an entry level scope if that's what you can afford. That's perfectly normal. That's what I did. It's great to do that and it's great these scopes exist at all, we live in good times for this type of work. I am saying the case of the guy who started this thread is abnormal. Why buytwolow end scopes by different manufacturers? If I had that kind of money I would spend it on one better scope like a 2000X (or something else in that class). I suspect the guy who started this thread has some kind of agenda to make the Siglent look bad against the Owon, that's what I'm trying to get across.Quote from: tautech on August 08, 2017, 09:59:35 amAnd that's fine, but the people in charge of making these different designs are not as good as the industrial designers of western brand scopes, except for Rigol. When they just copied Tek they looked better because they were copying good design. Good design is expensive, so it's understandable that when they stop copying they look worse, otherwise the scopes would no longer be so cheap. It's cost saving, I get that. And again I'm talking about the outer appearance and materials only, not the internal hardware which is pretty great for the price.Quote from: tautech on August 08, 2017, 09:59:35 amI was talking about the new GUI. I have seen it and I like it a lot more than the GUI of my 1072CML, it's great. I was saying that I like my 1072's case design better, not the GUI.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2017, 01:10:58 pm
content: Quote from: dos on August 08, 2017, 11:06:15 amWell, the word that comes to my mind would be 'bland'. Don't get me wrong, their housing design is completely practical, it just looks awfully boring.Same for their UI btw, although usability-wise it seems OK.QuoteI don't think any GW Instek scope emits anything close to the goofiness and toy-ish appearance as an OWON scope.And while the GW Instek may look bland, the build quality is pretty good. Can't say the same for the OWON.QuoteKeysight - I like the DSO-X case design but the Infiniiums always leave me thinking that they could have added a few more buttons for such expensive scopesLeCroy - I really like the WaveRunner 6zi (only scope with a pivotable widescreen display) and the WavePro 7zi(-A)/WaveMaster 8zi-A (nice large screen, detachable front panel, WM also comes with ProBus interface in addition to the standard ProLink interfaces). I don't like their current crop of Siglent rebadges (WaveAce) because the LeCroy housing looks pretty unpolished compared to the original Siglent housing.Tek - Case design wise they're OK, DPO/MSO2000 and DPO/MSO/MDO3k look a bit like the Rigol DS1000z/DS2000/DS4000 - standard functional beige cases. I like that the DPO/MSO/MDO4k and 5k have full keypads which is nice.In terms of cosmetics I have no preference for any scope, all of them look fine. And at the end of the day, what's in the case is more important.

author: dos
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2017, 02:21:47 pm
content: Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on August 08, 2017, 01:10:58 pmSomething tells me you're thinking of the previous generation of Instek scopes, which are what I would think of as bland:The new ones however look to me like the complete opposite of bland, obnoxiously funky:In person they're worse because all marketing shots white balance it so the yellowish case doesn't show :Really these particular scopes epitomize bad Chinese industrial design to me, it's basically what happens every time a Chinese company decides they need to stop copying good things and make themselves stand out. Horrible design sensibilities, like they grabbed a random student atShenzen Municipal Art Instruction Cooperative #6Band forced them to make it at gunpoint. Owons strike me the same way, and it feels like now Siglent are heading down this road after years of making decent looking stuff (before Siglent reps get all bothered, please understand I like what'sinsideSiglent scopes just fine. Think of it as constructive criticism.)Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on August 08, 2017, 01:10:58 pmMDO3Ks have this too and it's something I really wish would get copied.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2017, 02:30:40 pm
content: Then what do you think about this dos ?

author: dos
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2017, 02:34:30 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on August 08, 2017, 02:30:40 pmIt's fine, it looks good in the original Siglent white too, no strange colors or knobs etc:Of course it's also very expensive. Why not make the cheaper ones lookgoodprofessional?

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2017, 02:38:22 pm
content: Quote from: dos on August 08, 2017, 02:21:47 pmThis isn't the 'previous generation', this is a scope that was sold in 2008 (and at that time pretty much all entry level scopes had a similar design).The previous generation were the GDS-2000A and the GDS-1000A and all of them had a similar case design as the current GDS-1000B and GDS-2000E.QuoteI'm sorry but I can't see anything 'funky' on these scopes, there is no overuse of bright colors and no glitter effects.I know you can't argue about looks but to me it just looks bland and boring, although functional.QuoteI agree to some extend, although it's not to stand out but to come up with a design of their own. It's not common in China to leave product design to an experienced designer, often it's done by the same guy that makes the PCB, and he'll just design a box with holes for encoder shafts and screen based on where they are on the PCB. To our Western sensibilities this often looks ugly, but I have to see that the GW instek's are not even close to the horrors I've seen in Chinese products, as they are still perfectly ergonomic and useable.Also, this is something that over time will go away, as Chinese design evolves and more design and Human Factors educated people get into Chinese companies. Don't forget that Japan once had the role as the global manufacturer of cheap crap, and look where they are today.Horrible design sensibilities, like they grabbed a random student at Shenzen Municipal Art Instruction Cooperative #6B and forced them to make it at gunpoint. Owons strike me the same way, and it feels like Siglent are heading down this road (before Siglent reps get all bothered, please understand I like what'sinsideSiglent scopes just fine. Think of it as constructive criticism.QuoteYou're right, as a former MDO3k owner I should have known that it also has the keypadBut with more and more scopes employing touch screens the lack of a hardware keypad is no longer an issue.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2017, 02:39:33 pm
content: Quote from: dos on August 08, 2017, 02:34:30 pmSo you're happy using scopes with multiplexed vertical controls ?

author: dos
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2017, 02:40:06 pm
content: Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on August 08, 2017, 02:38:22 pmI'm sorry I should have clarified I meant the previous generation of their design, not the hardware.

author: dos
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2017, 02:42:52 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on August 08, 2017, 02:39:33 pmI'm not sure how many times I have to explain that I'm separating ergonomics from looks. No I would rather not have that. I think the Rigol 1054Z is a good looking scope, but I don't like it's ergonomics (or performance). I think the 1202X-E is an ergonomically good scope (and good performing) but I don't like it's looks. I think the Keysight 2000X series both looks good and is ergonomically good, same goes for the Tek DPO/MSO/MDO 2K/3K.E: And I have to clarify again that this is just subjective observation. I wouldn't buy or not buy a scope based on looks unless it was particularly egregious like the Instek. I'm just observing that most cheap Chinese scopes excluding Rigol are ugly, it's a fact of life that most cheap Chinese stuff designed by Chinese people is ugly. That doesn't stop us from using it if it's a good value

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2017, 02:44:59 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on August 08, 2017, 02:39:33 pmI'd take a scope with multiplexed vertical control over one with separate controls any day, simply because with the multiplexed variant I can make changes without having to move my hand. Also, the saved space over separate vertical controls can be used for a larger screen

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2017, 02:56:18 pm
content: Quote from: dos on August 08, 2017, 02:42:52 pmThen point out what doesn't rock your boat.We are talking about an economy model and initially I thought the look was a little retro (ahla SDS1000C*L) but I see purpose and functionality in this design not ugliness.I guess the old saying comes out now: beauty is the eye of the beholder........even if he is one eyed.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2017, 03:17:10 pm
content: Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on August 08, 2017, 02:44:59 pmUser preference is OK but I and others hope that Siglent retain a point of difference with individual vertical controls and 400V inputs.

author: dos
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2017, 03:42:27 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on August 08, 2017, 02:56:18 pmLook first of all to me Siglent is not the worst offender here. Owon and Instek are far worse and who I was mostly talking about. I just feel like Siglent is starting to slipin that directionbecause to me it looks kind of... slapped together? I don't know how to explain it but there's a lot of "change for the sake of change" here compared to the CML with seemingly not much thought put into it. If you really want me to nitpick:The second channel is pink and a really bad shade at that (you explained in another thread they wanted a different color to ~stand out~ but whythatone? It's better to blend in than do something lame looking.), the dark backgrounds of the horizontal and vertical control panel with black markings on them, the black border around the screen (though everyone is doing this now, this one doesn't even try to work into the design, it's just there). The shiny plastic knobs look toylike even compared to the knobs on the normal 1202X, the big bright blue auto button. Alone none of these things would be bad but they combine to make something that looks not very appealingto me, personally. It just looks very... low end Chinese. The "we don't give a damn" look.Again it's just me. And to be honest my next scope will probably be a Siglent, because I like what they're doing where it counts, in hardware, ergonomics, and value for money. But I think it looks worse and less professional compared to my CML, and that kind of sucks. The new thing should look better or at least stay the same, not look cheaper. I don't want some breakdown of why they chose each design element and why it's actually really good and I should totally love everything about it, because I don't. All things have flaws and when a customer's main issue with your product is "it looks kinda chintzy" you're probably doing more right than wrong.

author: dos
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2017, 03:52:39 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on August 08, 2017, 02:56:18 pmI want to address this separately. It looks purposeful and functional to me too, that's to do with the layout of the buttons and knobs and the nice screen and all that. It's well thought out and better than most imo. I have zero question this scope will work as I expect it to and not do anything stupid on an ergonomic level, unlike stuff like Owon or Instek (or even Rigol). I'm talking about really minor stuff like colors and materials (for materials it's really just the knobs).To me this is a Chinese scope that gets that stuff (again, I'm talking about superficial looks, I know Siglent performs better and is ergonomically better) nearly 99% right:It's just my personal taste.

author: oleh
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2017, 04:54:20 pm
content: Quote from: dos on August 08, 2017, 08:09:39 amOh boy... I'm a HFT software developer at one stock exchange. I make ultra low latency software combining linux hacks with FPGA processing. I'm just looking for a tool which can help with my crazy weekend robotic projects. I have done with CNC machine which can produce some mechanical parts. Now I need a tool for pure electronics research.By this Saturday I want to decide which Amazon order is going back:This:Order Placed: July 27, 2017Amazon.com order number: ...............-3023457Order Total: $360.05Shipped on July 27, 2017Items Ordered Price1 of: OWON XDS3202E 200MHz 1GS/s 2-channel Digital Storage Oscilloscope, 8 inch TFT-LCD ( 800x600 ), 40M record length, standard I2C, SPI, RS232 and CAN decoding, 75,000wfms/s refresh rateSold by: VIVITEQ (seller profile)Condition: New$379.00Or this:Order Placed: July 20, 2017Amazon.com order number: .................-7864253Order Total: $412.64Shipped on July 21, 2017Items Ordered Price1 of: Siglent Technologies SDS1202X-E 200 mhz Digital Oscilloscope 2 Channels, GreySold by: Amazon.com LLCCondition: NewBy the way, I didn't find "standard I2C, SPI, RS232 and CAN decoding" in Owon but was not able to decode 9600 RS232 with Siglent also.I will post some other tests later if you don't mind.

author: dos
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2017, 05:15:00 pm
content: Can you post a video of how responsive the Owon is to control inputs? Like play with the timebase and volts/div etc. while a waveform is on the screen, move the signal position, etc. with your hand moving the controls in the frame. Also when Dave reviewed this he said there is no intensity grading, is this true? Maybe demonstrate that in the video as well. From everything I've seen (Dave's video and not much else) these Owon scopes look like ergonomic nightmares.If you're not actually amazon seller VIVITEQ I'm sorry it just kinda seems that way when someone signs up to post about how brand X totally destroys brand Y with weird comparisons and nothing else. Why not make an objective full featured review video Dave style and then you can learn a lot about the scope in the process (and learn if you want to keep it) and really show off it's strengths/weaknesses because there is not much info about this scope out there. Really run it through its paces side by side the Siglent, that could be fun and interesting.

author: oleh
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2017, 05:34:51 pm
content: Quote from: dos on August 08, 2017, 05:15:00 pmThere are a lot of pros and cons. I understand them well. I didn't try GUI inertia for a purpose, but I was noticing some. It didn't bother me for some reason. I don't know why. I will try to make some videos, but sorry, no voice comments - my english sucks big timeAnd time is running out also... unfortunately. I'm looking for something what will work for my needs more or less for next two years without tech support. I don't expect any big coming from China developers. It would be the best is they could publish some tech info then the community would be able to develop much better software. The hardware itself is good enough.

author: oleh
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2017, 05:40:18 pm
content: The Owon software for PC and Android does not work. PC software can only show some waveforms but crashes when I try to start control panel. Android was not able to connect at all. I believe it because software cannot understand model name string "XDS3202E". I just need their SCPI commands, will do a little research. It does not recognize SDS series command, except some basic.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2017, 05:54:03 pm
content: Quote from: oleh on August 08, 2017, 04:54:20 pmFrankly, if you want a reliable scope that helps you for your project and the choice is between the Siglent SDS1202X-E and the OWON XDS3202E then this shouldn't be difficult - keep the Siglent.When I had a SDS2000 I suffered from my fair share of Siglent's inability to write software, but I'd still consider them several levels above OWON where not only the firmware is questionable but also the hardware. And user reports for the SDS1202X-E suggest that the firmware doesn't have a lot of bugs, an unlike back then with the SDS2000 Siglent is now actually fixing them more or less quickly.

author: oleh
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2017, 06:11:00 pm
content: Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on August 08, 2017, 05:54:03 pmProblem with Siglent- they have just switched to a new platform: new SoC and new FPGA (2 in 1 Zynq). Doesn't matter what they do, they will need couple years to sort everything out. It is just my IMHO.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2017, 06:15:34 pm
content: Quote from: oleh on August 08, 2017, 06:11:00 pmSo what? OWON hasn't really "sorted out" anything, be it hardware quality or the shoddy software. Based on a choice between only these two scopes there's no question that the Siglent is very likely the better scope.Or you can do what someone else has suggested, send them both back and buy something else (i.e. a GW Instek GDS-1000B, or the new Keysight DSO-X1000).

author: dos
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2017, 06:31:27 pm
content: Despite my brain telling me it's a stupid ripoff my heart wants the Keysight X-1000. If that thing (DSOX not EDUX), was $400 it would be on my bench right now, no questions asked. The price right now is just insane though, what are they smoking? Wait, don't answer, it's the same stuff Tek is smoking.

author: oleh
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2017, 06:47:57 pm
content: Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on August 08, 2017, 06:15:34 pmSiglent was hanging to death when I was saving waveform data to flash drive (two different). I had to unplug its power cord in order to reset. How can I set wall clock time? All files I created were 50 years oldNot everything is obvious in this battle of liliputs

author: dos
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2017, 09:27:41 pm
content: Quote from: oleh on August 08, 2017, 06:47:57 pmWhy not capture a video of this?

author: oleh
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2017, 11:33:24 pm
content: Quote from: dos on August 08, 2017, 09:27:41 pmI will try. Don't remember exact case. I was not going to post anything here a week ago.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2017, 12:02:38 am
content: Quote from: dos on August 08, 2017, 03:42:27 pmPlease do.QuoteWe need look at 4 ch scopes for the answer.Channel colours are pretty much industry standardised butnotthe order of the channel they represent.All manufacturers have their preferred colour scheme and some have been a particular way for decades.In C*L models their was a clash of colour order with later Siglent 4 channel scopes. When the C*L + models were released a short while back the ch 2 blue was swapped for magenta so all Siglent models now have the same colour scheme. In some older firmwares the pink was darkened to magenta for better visibility.As for all colours, display settings have some effect on visibility.QuoteWe see the shaded backgrounds in the CML+ too.QuoteSo let's put them up together.Yes for theeconomymodel the control knobs are different, I get that why can't you.You might have spotted in another thread where a new X-E owner had pimped the DSO with 2000X knobs at additional cost...........want better knobs then the price will increase.There are subtle differences between X and X-E, primarily the button layouts were the X-E has improved by placing the Print into the top group.One major improvement between C*L and X models is the separation of the Default button to well away from commonly used controls.QuoteAs there's nobody else chiming in with a similar viewpoint ...........Whatstruckyou about the CML when you bought it ?Was it really looks or features ?

author: blacksheeplogic
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2017, 06:23:23 am
content: Quote from: tautech on August 09, 2017, 12:02:38 amI like the Siglent but I do wonder how many sales would be lost if it cost US$2 more but had better physical user interface.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2017, 07:45:55 am
content: Quote from: blacksheeplogic on August 09, 2017, 06:23:23 am$2 worth of knobs at production would probably add $20 at retail and then Siglent would miss their target price point.For entry level and economy model pricing, every$cent is important.Looks only are the issue here but the X-E knobs are perfectly functional and I've not thought they can't/won't do the job and I power an X-E almost every day.For those that want to pimp/customise their scopes there'll be plenty of choices of alternative knobs on Aliexpress.

author: dos
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2017, 09:20:53 am
content: Quote from: tautech on August 09, 2017, 12:02:38 amIt was under $200 used but like new on ebay, and was better than a USB scope. The fact that it looked more expensive than it was was a nice bonus, and that's all.Also,Quote from: dos on August 08, 2017, 03:42:27 pmYou don't need to defend the honor of everything Siglent does when it's something subjective like looks. I'm sure there are people who find Keysight design elements ugly but as long as they're functional you don't see the Keysight rep responding breathlessly to people who think e.g. the new black Keysights are ugly (they are). This kind of aggressive forum activity (doing anything other than helping customers with problems and answeringquestions) gives Siglent a kind of weird look.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2017, 10:01:16 am
content: Quote from: dos on August 09, 2017, 09:20:53 amI don't and you have no idea of the barbed bullets I send them behind the scenes when required.Earlier on today Siglent was online and spent some time studying the content of this thread.I've had emails from US Siglent too regarding this content.........they watch and listen to what we offer and they have some allegiance from me for implementing some of the changes I have suggested.Very occasionally we see small unannounced HW changes and who knows, knobs might get changed because of further thought provoked by this thread.I get it that you are uncomfortable withlooks, and that's your opinion which is fine with me.Another old saying comes to mind:You can please everybody some of the time but you won't please everybody all of the time.

author: borjam
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 09, 2017, 10:39:04 am
content: Quote from: tautech on August 09, 2017, 10:01:16 amWell, it's a good sign that they are reading. I am aware that sometimes we do ask for golden unicorns with Unobtanium horn, no less, and of course at a bargain basement price, but I am sure some of our comments will be helpful!For the record, I brought the 1202X-E to the office yesterday. A junior engineer saw it and he said "hey! that looks like one of the Good Oscilloscopes!" (and he wasn't being sarcastic). These youngsters who haven't grown fond of nice clunky analog controls full of number scales... :

author: dos
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2017, 12:18:42 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on August 09, 2017, 10:01:16 amExactly, and that's fine. I really like what Siglent are doing to make responsive and feature-rich scopes available to the masses. I firmly believe that the 1202X-E is the new Rigol 1052E in terms of what that scope did for "value for money", and just like the 1052E it's going to set a new standard for what a ~$400 scope should be.If Siglent really are reading this: Make a 4 channel version X-E for at most a couple hundred more and you'll dominate. It's not terribly important but try to learn from Rigol's looks (or Keysight, or Tek...). Dark text should always be on a white background for maximum readability and don't try to go overboard to make something unique looking or you'll end up like Owon or Instek making visual atrocities. Budget scopes had decent knobs in the past so don't cheap out on stupid things like that now, things should always get better or stay the same, not worse. It's a slippery slope and compromises lead to Owon-style reputation if they keep happening.Test the software.

author: Diabolo
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2017, 12:42:14 pm
content: Hello,Gold-plated buttons for the same price? And 4 channels for a few cents ?He who believes in his dreams is not awake !Butter and butter money !Regards,Diabolo

author: dos
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2017, 01:16:30 pm
content: Quote from: Diabolo on August 09, 2017, 12:42:14 pmYes truly some decent knobs and 4 channels under $500 is impossible. Never been done. Err...http://www.saelig.com/ds1000z-series/ds1074z.htmThis was in 2015. Technology has improved as you can see in the far better (in everything but number of channels and fit and finish) 1202X-E. It performs better and costs ~$90 less:http://www.saelig.com/siglent-sdsx-series/sds1202x-e.htmI'm not even asking for a few cents more. I'm asking to pay $500-600 for a 4 channel version. It's not exactly an insane request. I'll even take a multiplexed model! Why don't you want nice things?

author: MrW0lf
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2017, 02:43:55 pm
content: People are colorful and different, its ok. However it is important never to include "it cannot be better because of n+1 reasons" types in any dev team

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2017, 07:59:38 pm
content: Quote from: dos on August 09, 2017, 12:18:42 pmThis ^ I omitted to address.Really......A few minutes using a scope and there's no need to look at labeling again ever.The LeCroy WS3000 layout is to the opposite extreme, white text on a black background that I personally can't stand.But that's their marketing/point of difference statement.The DSO layout for all brands now is very similar and different functionalities are within menus that are dealt with using dedicated buttons next to the display.The main controls are just that and the most commonly accessed and for even semi experienced scope users they barely need labeling IMHO.The remaining 'main' buttons have clear to see labeling on the button itself and enable menus on the display that while negotiating give display indication of which 'main' menu that you're within.IMO an hour in front of an X-E you'd have a very different opinion of the layout 'whys' and why nots.

author: dos
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2017, 04:14:11 am
content: Quote from: tautech on August 09, 2017, 07:59:38 pmGuess what, I still think it looks bad. It looks too busy to me with the dark boxes everywhere and the black border around the screen. The pink second channel stripe looks terrible against the gray. Test equipment doesn't need to be funky. Why are Rigol the only Chinese who seem to kind of understand this? And even they screw up like that retarded circular number pad on the DP832 power supply, but even that's more of an ergonomic fail, at least it's not orange or something. I think the modern Chinese idea of good design must be very different from the west. Maybe they should take a boat next door to Japan to learn some thingsQuote from: tautech on August 09, 2017, 07:59:38 pmFor the hundredth time I think the layout is fine. I get why everything is where it is and havezeroproblems with that. I actually think it's nice and functional. My only problem with it is that it looks kind of corny, due to certain color/material choices that have nothing to do with layout. If they changed some colors on the control panel insert (going back in time to original non-plus CML would be fine) and put back the good knobs 99% of my very minor complains would vanish. I still want one regardless of how it looks because it's a pretty good scope for the money inside.

author: rf-loop
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2017, 05:55:46 am
content: Quote from: oleh on August 08, 2017, 06:47:57 pmTine of clock.There is not real time clock in any SDS1000X series oscilloscope.I have tested waveform data saving to USB stick. Used Kingston DTSE9 8Gb. Formatted using windows for FAT32 and of course only one partition.Image, just need push Print and without any hassle like Owon image in png format is stored. No change in menu display or any other.With Owon I need use Save menu. So in all image there is Save manu buttons in screen bottom. I can not save image so that there is some oscilloscope settings menu visible like in Siglent. Also I need do many things before it save image. After I press Save, then I need select what I save and I select image. then after I push sub menu save after then come pop up window for naming file what also need push enter or multipurpose button on front panel. After then Owon start storing this 1.4M BMP image, and this process is quite slow. If I need do documentation during my work it is really terrible slow. Who pay my salary when I play like this.With Siglent, just single button. and immediately it tell image is saved. No any button circus. (and I have touch panel screen what helps bit, but still total mess. Is this made as replacement for game console or is this made as serious tool for work? Perhaps hobby use user can accept this mess but for more serious use. Who will pay my salary if I am playing fun with this. There is good things also in Owon but UI is really mess what makes real useability really to lower class bottom. Small things but important things.Siglent also, its UI and overall useability is far better but not at all perfect.Side note:Every company in China, including Taiwan island, need learn lot of for ergonomy, useability and industrial developer of the product outlook design. They all are terrible or horrible if look critically these designs.But, also it need kindly understand that Chinese industrial design is very very young in this T&M instruments area. They are like childrends. Some, example Tek or HP, have done these industrial designs tens of years. They have inside house long history for develop good hardware ergonomy and also software made UI ergonomy (exept some times now it looks like they start forget - dementia perhaps due to old age).In some old HP oscilloscopes UI is really near perfectionism. examples in some ancient 54xxx series (with these limits what this era FW make possible). How these young just more or less short time ago started companies can do this same.If want know more just read all HP journals from beginning. Design philosophy is there (but not only there, also other sources are availlable). These journals are like free high grade learning books how things in indutry need think.Who is first Chinese company who adopt this design and innovation and manufacturing culture and start developing towards A or A+ class. In A,erica they have started dementia and many companies actively try forget all good things. Like in Danaher and like in Keyshit.And this, screen image to USB stick is what I do lot and this need really work fast. With Owon it is not possible to do fast enough.heard from many people that screen dump is most frequently used save function. They have even Print button in front panel but no, this is only for physical printer.How can they do screen dump like this.Then waveform data.With Owon, procedure same as with screen image dump.There can select wave: BIN, TXT or CSV.If I select 10M memory, save all and CSV. It is not fast at all. It takes long time (and in this, Siglent is even more slow but also it have no 10M selection, it have 14M or 2x7M)Also TXT. Same. What ever it is. Also CSV is text. so what is Owon TXT vs CSV. Siglent can also select BIN, CSV but third type is named MatLab.Owon, screen dump. During save, scope acquisition freezed. It takes roughly without clock, say half minute.Owon BIN save (10M, All) During save, scope acquisition freezed.Owon CSV save (10M, All) take coffee break. During save, scope acquisition freezed.Owon TXT same. Take coffee break, During save, scope acquisition freezed.Without thinking time or button acrobacy it works - mostly. But example now, after CSV save next I select to save BIN. Now screen small pop up tell that please install fat32 disk and make sure it have 4k cluster size. Just after it save CSV without pproblem. No way, always same. Then I try TXT, again, no problem but as slow as CSV.Reboot Owon.During this I also check USB stick. Now windows tell it have problem and need "repair" Ok, done. Perhaps this was problem? (no it was not problem) Try again with Owon. Again, same thing when I try BIN. When try save there pop up small window for give file name. I change this file name. After then it accept save BIN file what takes some seconds. Then after I try save BIN again, same warning FAT32 and 4k cluster. Again. Change filename and it works. Slow. around half minute.What a mess.Then with Siglent.Screen dump. Push Print button in fron panel. Just blink your eyes and its done. PNG is in USB.(it can do also in Save menu if really want but also there can select image type, BMP, JPG or PNG and if invert or normal black backround image. THis setting here is used for front panel Print button)PNG saving to USB is really fast and even BMP is faster than in Owon. Who want BMP, for what as long as PNG can use.Saving waveform data. 2x7MBIN fast, counting in mind, perhaps 5-6 second.CSV slow, go to coffee break. More slow than Owon. Scope still do normal acquistion and display waveform but wfm&s speed drops some amount.During save process settings can not chage but wfm is eunning and can still watch on the screen, unlike Owon what freeze display during save.MatLab. Same as CSV.I did these many times and all times it works without crash like you told. So please explain what exatly you did when it crash to state where ypu need unplug power so that it can report to Siglent for fix if there is error in system or if it is user error what can stop changing FW so that some things are locked from user during save process running.It need note to some random readers that CSV and MatLab or CSV and TXT with Owon and Siglent or what ever brand produce quite big files. Example Owon with 10M memory settings, save all (2 channels on) produce around 330Mb comma separated values text file (filename.csv) Example OPenOffice or LibreOffice can not open these files due to big size.Here small sample from Siglent .csvTotal length is 7000000 rows data + header some rows including some information about scope and settings, (2 channels, both 7000000 sample.)Software Version,5.1.3.13,,,Source,CH1,CH2Second,Volt,Volt0.00000000000,-0.41600,0.040000.00000000200,-0.41600,0.000.00000000400,-0.41600,0.040000.00000000600,-0.41600,0.040000.00000000800,-0.42400,0.040000.00000001000,-0.41600,0.040000.00000001200,-0.41600,0.000.00000001400,-0.41600,0.040000.00000001600,-0.41600,0.000.00000001800,-0.41600,0.040000.00000002000,-0.41600,0.000.00000002200,-0.41600,0.000.00000002400,-0.41600,0.04000

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2017, 08:14:52 am
content: Quote from: tautech on August 09, 2017, 07:59:38 pmNo, it's not a'marketing thing'or some kind of statement, it's simple science: white text on black background simply provides the maximum contrast which helps readability in pretty much every lighting situation.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2017, 04:42:25 pm
content: Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on August 10, 2017, 08:14:52 amAnd yet every PC application and website uses dark text on (semi) white background. I have fitted several instruments with TFT screens and I always used the chance to have dark text (or traces) on a white background because it is easier to the eyes. AFAIK the whole white on dark color schemes we see today stem from the CRT era where white on dark works better because of the CRT tube.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2017, 07:23:44 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on August 10, 2017, 04:42:25 pmYes, after decades with computers and terminals using white/orange/green text on dark backgrounds.And dark on bright was done (even in the CRT age!) because it resembled text on paper, and also because the bright background acts as a light source (much more so than what white text on black background would have done) which can help in certain lighting situations.Many websites use mostly light designs for cosmetical and psychological reasons (not always successful, mind you).But since this is about scopes, I guess must have missed the masses of modern scopes showing dark traces on white backgrounds thenQuoteIt doesn't, dark on white was available long before CRTs have been replaced with LCD technology.Dark on bright is great as long as there's a certain amount of dark content (i.e. text). But bright on dark is generally easier where the actual content (i.e. text, a waveform) is relatively small compared to the screen area and can get lost/overlooked easily, which is exactly why most test instruments come with a bright on dark scheme.

author: dos
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2017, 09:03:59 pm
content: I tend to prefer light on dark when it's a trace on a glowing screen, but the inverse on things that don't glow like control panels. On my 1072CML you can choose to have a dark trace on a white background (like some older Tek DSOs with LCD screens) or the normal light trace on a dark background and I always choose the latter. For text on a screen I can go either way, my IRC client and command prompts are set up with light on dark but websites look better to me with dark on light, who knows why.

author: oleh
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 12, 2017, 02:36:13 am
content: Got a 500Mhz probe today with a configuration pin. Owon properly recognized x10 mode like a big boy. Siglent does not have this function. It is not as important, just interesting.Also, I finished two more tests:1. Alternating trigger.Two scopes have absolutely different approach:a). Siglent triggers at opposite edges of pulse and alternates frames. One after another. That make scope screen flickering at slow sweeps, like 60 Hz. The flickering is visible even with a 1 kHz signal. Siglent cannot trigger on signals from CH1 and CH2 separately and simultaneously. For example CH1 - positive edge, CH2- negative edge.b). Owon triggers from two separate channels simultaneously, showing two separate waveforms.Maybe Siglent is better and easier for students to demonstrate how alternating triggering works, but Owon's implementation is more practical.I created a simple test bench using 2000 PPR encoder from China. Lets watch this on video:2. Color gradient.In this test I compared how two scopes show complex video signal with enabled color gradients and disabled persistence (the persistence is still there because of finite performance) . I don't know who likes what, but Siglent's screen is not very informative and looks like blue noisy mess.Here is a video:And a photo with a better view:

author: rf-loop
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 12, 2017, 07:58:12 am
content: Quote from: oleh on August 12, 2017, 02:36:13 amQuote from: oleh on August 12, 2017, 02:36:13 am1Yes Owon have dual channel ALT. Both channels trigger independently and both have independent triggers. Just like in older Siglent SDS1000DL/CNL/CML series. And even more, it have dual timebase dual trigger ALT.But, now with Owon (least my version) do not have at all single channel dual slope alternate what Siglent have.I can not do this semi EyeDiagram with Owon. My Owon version do not haveAlternate Edgetrigger at all.Can you do this? We're picking raisins from the bun - as you want do from Owon.Also you have not told anything about trigger time jitter and trigger time position errors.But Owon have one thing! It have better TFT if look image. Owon TFT itself is super. But then. Why a heck it is glossy, I do not need makeup mirror, I need tool for look signal, not my face.. EDIT:Then other bad thing. It have cheap plastic surface...are they serious?Siglent have real antiglare glass.Previously I ask you do some automatic measurements. But tgis was perhaps not nice thing and then you happy jump over it. Owon can not do automatic measurements anything but just from screen data.2. About color gradation. It depends many things how it handle color scale. Perhaps Siglent can adjust bit this color gradation "contrast" curve parameters. But, perhaps it have then bad effect with some other signal ans other speeds etc.I can not look this with Owon at all because My Owon XDS3102A do not have at all color gradation. Not even good intensity gradation. This is one really terrible thing with Owon. No one know what version you get and what version can later get what FW updates. I do not want to beg for every FW from Owon.Why do I have to beg and justify that I need a new FW. Owon's website says my serial number is incompatible. My job is not begging. I am sometimes asked that the intensity gradation works. They tell that later. After that I have not heard any thing. If they do not care what they promise, who care. I am Buyer, they are a seller! But, they behave as if the situation were the opposite.

author: oleh
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 12, 2017, 02:31:18 pm
content: Quote from: rf-loop on August 12, 2017, 07:58:12 amThis is correct.Quote from: rf-loop on August 12, 2017, 07:58:12 amI passed the same signal to both channels. It works for many cases. For some cases we would need some sort of active repeater. I would make one using fast OP if I would need.Quote from: rf-loop on August 12, 2017, 07:58:12 amI checked, Owon sometime has offset 0.3-0.5 nanosecond. It puzzles me. I cannot imagine how they would achieve this picoseconds delay?Quote from: rf-loop on August 12, 2017, 07:58:12 amI have not noticed this problem yet. Still have a protective film on the screen. Siglent arrived without one, was it returned previously?Quote from: rf-loop on August 12, 2017, 07:58:12 amI did this test. Just didn't have a chance to respond. To much text was in that color-design discussion. Yes, I can confirm, Owon makes automatic measurements on-screen. But within a screen they are same accurate as from Siglent.Quote from: rf-loop on August 12, 2017, 07:58:12 amThey (both) could introduce switchable linear - logarithmic - antilogarithmic Z-buffers. But I would not expect this during our life time span.Quote from: rf-loop on August 12, 2017, 07:58:12 amYes, support is terrible. I'm testing this also. But I don't expect any fruits. From the open-source community point of view, Siglent keeps their secrets better than Owon. At least, it is difficult to understand Siglent's binary data file format. It has huge 3k header and I didn't find any descriptions. Owon has several documents flying across the Internet about its data formats. And there are couple nice mod stories about SDS7102. I didn't see any interesting stories about newer Owons, yet... but internally they have some similarities around Tx-Rx and JTAG.Architecturally, Owon has better memory layout. It has two memory banks next to acquittance FPGA and one separate bank next to Ti's SoC. All three are 128MB, if I'm right. NAND is only 128MB compared to 256MB in Siglent, but it should be enough. Owon has 16bit post processing buffer vs 8 bit in Siglent. That can be the reason why Siglent has that not nice color gradient.Owon's can be controlled remotely over LAN or USB (theoretically) because included software cannot recognize this model name properly. But, though telnet it works. We can modify existing SDS7102 control and dump utils. This can let to control built in AVG and Multmeter, if anybody needs last one. Grabing data and screenshots remotely is also a nice feature.On the side note: Owon is $360 vs Siglent $414 here for me (I saw $719 price tag in another place for the same device). And it has Multimeter and AVG in addition. And it has a big bag of bugs. $360 - it is much less than I paid for my wrist watchVery nice toy and a puzzle for a tinker. Siglent on its end is better suitable for youngsters and students. With a "candy crush" color scheme it is the best in the class.

author: oleh
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2017, 04:04:52 pm
content: And, finally, the last video of this season aimed to compare two lightweight scopes. After this one scope is heading back to its mothership.As you can see Owon has some kind time-zoom feature which Siglent misses. History mode in Siglent cannot be a replacement, because it jumps between frames. And, as you know neither one scope is able to record frames real-time. Siglent makes normally 10-15 thousand frames a second. Owon can make 30 - 50 thousand frames a second with similar settings. But Owon records samples before and after the screen. It is very convenient if you want to explore pre- and post- history. We are not talking about split screen zoom mode here. Both scopes have this feature.

author: dos
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 16, 2017, 06:28:00 am
content: the Owon looks less responsive than my 5 year old 1072CML...I mean it may have some really minor, nitpicky advantages over the siglent but why on earth would anyone get such a laggy scope in 2017. I thought we were past that stuff with the new generation of cheap scopes finally approaching Keysight style responsiveness. No wonder this guy hardly ever touches the knobs in his videos...

author: Gandalf_Sr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 16, 2017, 10:42:58 am
content: oleh said a bit back that the Siglent was "hanging on to death" while doing a USB save. I own an SDS1202X-E and there were some issues with the USB drive but, after I applied the first software update, there have been zero issues using USB.

author: borjam
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 16, 2017, 10:50:17 am
content: Quote from: Gandalf_Sr on August 16, 2017, 10:42:58 amI spent a morning on Monday saving screenshots to a thumb drive. For the record, one of those key shaped Lacie drives which are rather slow. No issues to report, it was quick. I used both ways to store data: the Save/Recall menu and the Print button.

author: oleh
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 17, 2017, 12:26:59 am
content: Quote from: dos on August 16, 2017, 06:28:00 amI don't know what you are doing with your scope, but my idea was to use it for signal exploration and for storing waveforms. The Siglent scope from this thread has limited storage capabilities. It can store as many as 14 (fourteen) samples out of fourteen million available in the top sweep mode. It does that 6100 times per second (85400 samples per second) at 1Gs/sec sampling speed. With these setting Siglent captures 100*85400/100000000 = 0.00854% of data. It is not good. Of course, it has horizontal sale zoom but that prop also does not work nice. Siglent people invented their "actual memory depth", "fast" and "slow" acquittance modes, etc, just in order to make nice look and better sales.But it was not the biggest issue what pushed me to look around for something else. Problem appeared when I tried to analyze chop currents in my stepper driver. I was barely able to see the signal! With color mode off the waveform was shown with too low contract (what the "superphosphor" word means?), with color mode on, the waveform was flooded with bluish noise. Hands down... My old 150MHz analog scope was giving better picture and better trigger synchronization.I believe that with refined generator signals Siglent is much better but I need a device to work with regular noisy signals.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 17, 2017, 12:32:21 am
content: Quote from: oleh on August 17, 2017, 12:26:59 amYou have a much more powerful trigger suite in a DSO.........learn how to make the most of it.

author: oleh
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 17, 2017, 12:34:23 am
content: Quote from: Gandalf_Sr on August 16, 2017, 10:42:58 amI was trying to save longer waveforms in the CVS format. I didn't find how to decode Siglent's binary format, it had quite big, also binary, header. I think it hung with more than 700,000 points.

author: oleh
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 17, 2017, 12:35:37 am
content: Quote from: tautech on August 17, 2017, 12:32:21 amThank you! I'm learning

author: rf-loop
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 17, 2017, 05:11:48 am
content: Quote from: oleh on August 17, 2017, 12:34:23 amHeader is from 0x0 to 0x2B83 This is header.signal data starts from 0x2B84 to end of data. This is normal waveform data where one byte is one sample.If memory length is 700000 ksample this part length is 700000 bytes0x2B83 is 11139 and then + 1 byte (0x0) header length is 11140 bytes. (fixed)So, of course if you want 700k wfm data it hung bit over 700kIf you save 14 data points there is 14 data points in memory, exactly. And before these 14 data bytes there is 11140 bytes header.If you know your settings it is not nessessary to know this header at all, Just use this data. I mean if you know V/div, offset, t/div, sample interval and so on, youi can just use these 8 bit data values.

author: oleh
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2017, 12:03:34 am
content: Quote from: rf-loop on August 17, 2017, 05:11:48 amYes, I know. I found where data starts right away. But I'm too lazy to make descriptions for every file manually. Also, I live in a unix world and here file timestamps are important. "ls -lrt" is done pretty often during a day.

author: oleh
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2017, 12:15:48 am
content: I'm thinking about loading custom software to this scope. SoC is similar to one used in Beaglebone board but without 3D and PRUs. Process of loading software is not so complicated in Owon. I found that capacity of existing flash ROM is used for about 12% and that is almost 80% uncompressed graphic elements. The memory layout in Owon is much better than in Siglent. Owon has three banks of memory: two 256MB chips are attached to FPGA and SoC has its own 128MB memory. Shared memory in Siglent can be a bottleneck. I hope that Owon will leak FPGA constraints file somewhere, it would be great. They don't have enough developers anyway. With this hardware and good collection of open source software this scope will be able to blow any other scope out of water.

author: MrW0lf
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2017, 07:28:00 am
content: Quote from: oleh on August 18, 2017, 12:15:48 amCannot be fully excluded other scopes will jump out of the water themselves and ROFL on the beach if see those childish knobs on Owon. If gonna write new software maybe improved looks also?

author: boggis the cat
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2017, 10:30:16 am
content: Quote from: oleh on August 18, 2017, 12:03:34 amQuote from: oleh on August 18, 2017, 12:15:48 amThat may be a bit ambitious. A script to automate renaming / time stamping files would seem a much easier undertaking.QuoteI have suggested that Rigol would do well to open up an 'end of life' model to allow people to try to work on it (and/or Siglent, or anyone else with a significant hobbyist user base).If you believe that you can do this with this newer Owon then that would be very interesting -- however, I think this is unlikely to be achievable. Best of luck if you do have a go at this.

author: oleh
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2017, 11:17:08 am
content: Quote from: MrW0lf on August 18, 2017, 07:28:00 amThere are no P&G brand baby products colors on the front panel.

author: boggis the cat
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2017, 11:47:55 am
content: Quote from: oleh on August 18, 2017, 11:17:08 amBeauty -- or interface appropriateness -- is in the eye of the beholder.I don't much care for the Owon design, myself, and consider the Siglent to be fine. Not the best, but perfectly acceptable.(The decision to make the Owon knobs that design, with the inset colour, seems ill-considered. The rest of the UI seems accceptable.)

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2017, 12:06:25 pm
content: Quote from: oleh on August 18, 2017, 12:15:48 amPeople have been saying that for years but writing firmware for a DSO with measurements, decoding, etc is a massive project and without a decent CPU in the hardware lots needs to be done in FPGA which means development is even more slow. IOW: I don't see this happening soon.

author: oleh
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2017, 01:58:49 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on August 18, 2017, 12:06:25 pmI'm looking at the Comedi project. It is quite old, mature and sill alive. I hope existing fpga bitfile can do the job.http://comedi.org/and quite old article in the Linux Journal:http://www.linuxjournal.com/article/7332?page=0,2

author: oleh
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2017, 02:01:46 pm
content: Quote from: boggis the cat on August 18, 2017, 11:47:55 amMaybe I can buy better knobs on eBay...

author: Diabolo
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2017, 01:41:09 pm
content: Problèmes ?-Regards,Diabolo

author: oleh
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2017, 04:21:08 pm
content: Quote from: Diabolo on August 27, 2017, 01:41:09 pmYes, problems. That was all about $1300 scope, here we were talking about almost the same but for $360.