if you are a beginner... - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / beginners

author: vallywally5
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2017, 09:51:02 am
content: hello my unknown friends,if you are a beginner what oscilloscope you'll buy ? conditions :- for hobby (ham utility)- enough monney (1000 pounds)- new/used-or maybe a spectrum analyzerthanks

author: janoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2017, 09:56:03 am
content: There are plenty of "Which oscilloscope should I buy" threads around, just search the forum.Spectrum analyzer you are not likely to need if you are only starting (or more likely - not have the money for - even old used ones still go for $1500-$2000 ...). Get a decent scope instead and either use the FFT function on it or capture the data on an USB stick and analyze it on the PC. It is less "real-time" than a real spectrum analyzer but you can do a lot more e.g. in Matlab or with something like Python.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2017, 10:01:35 am
content: As jaonc said, read the posts on the forum, and then you will be able to ask interesting questions that can be answered.First work out what you need to measure. Then choose the best tool for that.Hams "work" in the frequency domain, where low noise, wide dynamic range and low distortion are very important. Scopes are a poor fit for each of those attributes; spectrum analysers are a better fit.

author: vallywally5
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2017, 10:09:06 am
content: many thanks for your answerI don't understand the type/name of oscilloscope, do you ?you said nothing (I have search engines , I want an answer not words )

author: Rerouter
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2017, 10:28:24 am
content: If you are a beginner, go to your local ham meetups, get familiar with which tools the other members use, and once your familiar with them, you can better define what will suite your needs.any of us saying to get a 100Mhz rigol, while good for an electronics beginner may not meet the same criteria as for Ham activities such as tuning filters, and following modulation / demodulation paths. this is more the role of a spectrum analyser, but these still tend to cost significantly more than beginner level scopes.Oscilloscope FFT displays of spectrum may get you by, but i personally have not even got a DSO, nor do I do ham activities, so I cannot answer with your limited requirementsThe best thing you can do to get a solid answer is spec out what you need to measure, with this knowledge, people without ham experience can then chime in.

author: vallywally5
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2017, 10:44:54 am
content: I understand that is very difficult to give an answer.Please close the topic,(I read some books about search engines )Many thanks.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2017, 10:50:21 am
content: Quote from: vallywally5 on October 23, 2017, 10:09:06 amSo, you want us to spend ourvaluabletimerepeatinganswers that arealready there. Not a chance:do your own homework.Or alternatively, if you wantananswer, get a Tektronix MDO4104C+MDO4SA6, or a Tektronix 2435. (N.B. anybody arguing against those would be missing the point!)

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2017, 10:59:20 am
content: tgzzz: he only has two kidneys or perhaps one if he's unlucky. I don't think that's enough to buy a MDO4104C

author: vallywally5
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2017, 11:04:18 am
content: and if I want somethig likeRohde & Schwarz RTB2002what do you say ?

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2017, 11:21:20 am
content: Ok lets start giving some sensible advice. I see ham mentioned so I'll assume this is going to be for RF use.Buy what you NEED. Tell us why you need a scope and what you expect to gain from it and we'll let you know if that's a good idea and what scopes are suitable.The problem with a scope is that for RF use, the time domain instruments aren't generally very good unless you start paying real money. The FFT function on them is a bad substitute for proper tools.Personally if I had 1000 quid to blow, which I don't, I'd buy a second hand Agilent spectrum analyser and a Tektronix 24xx scope with at least 200MHz of bandwidth. Hopefully if you're lucky you'll have some money left over for cables, terminators, attenuators etc which are rather important!

author: Mjolinor
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2017, 11:38:02 am
content: Buy broken and fix. No better solution than that in any number of searches.I have several network and spectrum analysers and they are rarely used. My S parameter test set and network analyser which I bought new, have not been out of the box for over five years.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2017, 11:39:53 am
content: Buy and fix is an option. You'll learn something. Here's my thread on fixing a Tektronix 475. 200MHz scope so far for about £60 of expenditure:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/repair/tektronix-475-repair-assistance/msg1323808/Disclaimer: you need a scope to fix a scope and some experience so YMMV.

author: chris_leyson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2017, 12:10:42 pm
content: I was going to suggest a second hand radio comms test set, there's a Marconi 2955 on ebay for £600. You get a spectrum analyzer and signal generator for that price but the scope is only 50kHz BW.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2017, 03:00:06 pm
content: The Rigol DS1054Z is popular for hobbyists but usually for non-ham related work. The 100 MHz bandwidth will cover up to 6m but is well short of 2m if you wanted to see the carrier waveform. I haven't been impressed with the built in FFT but it could be User Error. Pulling the raw data into Matlab may be more useful but I haven't tried it.The new Siglent SDS1204X-E, when it is finally released, will be 4 channels up to 200 MHz. That takes care of the 2m frequency. Keep track of user tautech over in the Test Equipment forum - he is a distributor for Siglent in New Zealand and keeps a pretty good eye on what Siglent is doing.I would suspect that radio amateurs have gotten by without DSOs for the very reason that their signals are continuous functions (the modulating signal could be a continuous tone). If that is true, there are a lot of used higher bandwidth analog scopes available. I bought a used 350 MHz Tektronix 485 for about $200 about 12 years ago. It has NONE of the capabilities of a modern DSO but it does have a lot of bandwidth.As I watch w2aew's videos, I notice that he is using a high end analog scope (mostly). His channel might prove interesting to you. Some of his material is related to amateur radio and and some is related to electronics fundamentals and these videos are excellent!You need to nail down what you expect the scope to do. I have no interest in radio but I do expect to be able to decode serial IO and watch digital signals at reasonable frequencies. For me, 4 channels is a nice feature. Sure, I got along with 2 channels all my life but 4 is really nice for decoding SPI. This is probably not necessary for amateur radio.Tradeoffs, always tradeoffs...

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2017, 03:23:02 pm
content: Quote from: vallywally5 on October 23, 2017, 11:04:18 amWhy haven't you bought it? Why don't you use normal punctuation?N.B. that is an answer to your overly terse question; it is not advice.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2017, 03:28:37 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on October 23, 2017, 11:21:20 amYes indeed. All those are available cheaply at hamfests

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2017, 03:59:07 pm
content: Quote from: vallywally5 on October 23, 2017, 09:51:02 amEvery few days someone comes and asks “I’m a beginner. Which scope should I get?”It’s been discussed a thousand times. We don’t need to answer it again, and you couldalready have your answerif you simply went and searched.Replying with annoyance and 3-word answers isn’t going to make people help you, it’s just going to piss them off.

author: grifftech
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2017, 05:55:04 pm
content: dso-138 kit

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 24, 2017, 04:45:07 am
content: Quote from: grifftech on October 23, 2017, 05:55:04 pmFor anyone wondering .... that is a joke. Literally. Have a laugh and think nothing more of it.For a serious answer to the OP, this is the best I have seen here:Quote from: Rerouter on October 23, 2017, 10:28:24 am

author: janoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2017, 11:49:05 pm
content: Quote from: blueskull on October 24, 2017, 05:03:51 amSorry, that's absolute nonsense.If he is going to play with DIY kit on HF, any old 20-50MHz scope would be plenty already - most likely the first attempts would be some crystal driven radios for 80 or 40 meters or some BitX kit anyway. A 100MHz Rigol is a luxury for many hams I know. Spectrum analyzers even more so, given the prices. Very few hams have one (or can afford one). And people get by just fine.You may just have to improvise a little, for example using that FFT in Matlab/Python. Or use an SDR radio ($20 dongle) and some free software with a nice waterfall display to check for splatter (or, more likely you will be told rather quickly on band if your signal isn't clean!). Which is pretty much all most hams would need a spectrum analyzer for - the remaining ones that know how to use it for other things also know whether or not they really need it (and can afford it).He didn't say what exactly he wants to do but beginners are not likely to start homebrewing gear for the 2m band or higher, that requires both some experience and equipment. So why exactly would one need a 500MHz scope for getting started in ham radio?(btw, even 2m is doable with the 100MHz Rigol - the frontend is usable to some 150MHz, even higher if you can put up with some attenuation. Certainly not ideal, but possible if you just want a quick check of the signal).

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2017, 12:01:35 am
content: +1 agree.Incidentally I built a 2m receiver with a counter and a DMM and an RF probe. Total gear cost was about £30.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 25, 2017, 12:24:11 am
content: Quote from: janoc on October 24, 2017, 11:49:05 pm+1My own personal experience on this was checking the output of a 27MHz transmitter for a RC vehicle. At the time, all I had was a 15MHz Hitachi CRO - but hooking up the transmitter to the scope, I was able to see the carrier modulation respond to the operation of the controls. Sure, the level was down and uncalibrated, but I didn't need quantitative measurement - just a qualitative observation.Knowing how to work past the published "limitations" relies on you understanding your instrument well enough to do so. An example of which is knowing what you can do on a CRO is not necessarily doable on a DSO.

author: jacklee
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2017, 01:45:34 am
content: that depends on if you are rich

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2017, 08:16:18 am
content: Quote from: bd139 on October 25, 2017, 12:01:35 amBut you couldn't do that for a 2m transmitter!

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2017, 08:31:28 am
content: Quote from: tggzzz on October 25, 2017, 08:16:18 amNo I’d use an absorption wavemeter tooYou can get away with some proper rancid old cack if you understand it to some degree. My father was a ham in the 1950s and he used a home brew voltmeter and GDO and that was it. Clearly standards have to be better than that now but do we need them to be £1000+ better?

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2017, 08:44:46 am
content: Quote from: bd139 on October 25, 2017, 08:31:28 amVery true; see the aphorism in my .sig

author: vallywally5
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2017, 10:23:36 am
content: hello again,in my shack I have : kenwood ts-950sd and ts 780aI like if posible a list with oscilloscopes for using in hf (30mhz) {I know the difference analog/digital }A simple list s'il vous plait , not fights, peace not blood .Tkank's again all of you .

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2017, 10:53:33 am
content: If you're HF and RF only you're mainly interested in periodic signals so any 100MHz scope will do the job. That will allow you to see some distortion without costing too much. Rigol DS1054Z if you want a new one. Any Tektronix analogue scope that works (4x5 series, 22xx, 24xx, 26xx series) which is second hand and tested working with at least 100MHz bandwidth is good too.You don't need a lot. The digital scopes mainly come into use in non-repetitive and slow signals which there aren't a lot of in RF work.Quote from: tggzzz on October 25, 2017, 08:44:46 amDidn't see that - I agree!(well the half of me that doesn't have TEA does)

author: vallywally5
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2017, 12:05:42 pm
content: merci beaucoup first bd 139 and than all of you .

author: vallywally5
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: February 12, 2019, 02:16:17 pm
content: Thnk you for your interest/replay.I bought an oscilloscope Lecroy 9430.Need help about a manual I find only a remote control manual but not a user manual. Please help.Thanks.

author: vallywally5
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: February 13, 2019, 10:45:34 am
content: Nope, I want User Manual, not Remote Control Manual !