GCC got its Code of Conduct too! - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2023, 10:33:50 pm
content: https://gcc.gnu.org/conduct.html

author: MMMarco
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2023, 10:36:16 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on June 22, 2023, 10:33:50 pmSo?

author: DiTBho
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2023, 10:36:57 pm
content: nice aperture to the public

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2023, 11:25:04 pm
content: Quote from: MMMarco on June 22, 2023, 10:36:16 pmHe's been going on rants recently about various political talking points.https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/submersible-missing-while-visiting-titanic-wreck/msg4919707/#msg4919707Maybe its related to that.Doesn't belong on this forum IMO.

author: langwadt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2023, 11:28:18 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on June 22, 2023, 10:33:50 pmwhat you think it wrong with it?

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2023, 11:52:37 pm
content: I'm following GCC's development on a regular basis, and it appeared as the latest news:https://gcc.gnu.org/It's likely a topic that's going to get discussed in the coming weeks, just like it has usually been discussed for other open-source projects, like Rust.Many people have complained (including on here), fully justified or not, that it was always pretty difficult to get contributions accepted by GCC's team, or even just to get bug reports assigned at all.We'll see if this new "code" changes anything in that regard, hopefully not for the worse.Earlier this year, Linux got his too:https://itsfoss.com/linux-code-of-conduct/, and not without some controversy as well.Those not interested in that topic at all can just ignore it.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2023, 12:42:19 am
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on June 22, 2023, 10:33:50 pmI can't think of any way(s) this could go wrong.Wait a minute, WOW a time portal worm-hole has just opened up, near me, it appears I can briefly visit the future in 10 years time, be back soon ...I've just experienced GCC, 10 years in the future. I just had time to try a program and skim over the latest (future) conduct document.The conduct document is now 375 pages long, so I'll have to look forward to reading it in ten years time. I can simply ignore it, can't I?My first program wouldn't compile, there were 3 Errors, 6 Warnings, 7 Woke conflicts, 17 Banned Words Violations, and ChatGPT9.5 says there are a further 22 'Code of Conduct' Errors/Mistakes/Conflicts/Warnings, please correct. It also said it appeared to be too racist and rude to other parties to attempt to compile.... I'm back, in 2023 now.

author: gnif
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 23, 2023, 05:16:20 am
content: Quote from: MK14 on June 23, 2023, 12:42:19 amLiteral ROFL, you sir just made my day

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2023, 06:13:04 am
content: Quote from: MK14 on June 23, 2023, 12:42:19 amLOLur worm-hole is faulty. The very idea that GCC in ten years will still even compile any code at all is preposterous. Open source is going away and so is coding up stuff locally.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2023, 06:36:29 am
content: Quote from: Ed.Kloonk on June 23, 2023, 06:13:04 amNo, it was a 100% true and honest story.Terminal worked just fine.The 657TB Snap file for GCC did take a while to download, SystemD exceeded its 2TB limit, but I fixed that.Interestingly, the version of Linux I was using, had all the 5,000 page EU mandated 'improvements' to it, included."This OS might store stuff on your disks and send and receive data across the internet, do you agree?""Accept All : Reject All : Allow your homepage to be adjusted : Enable : Disable""EU Mandate 4653838 : Please fill out the EU new user options form EU#456386364, and don't leave out any of its 500 pages".Download the PDF form here: ____________"Feel free to gently fill out the PDF form, at your leisure. After receiving and checking/validating the form, the rest of your boot process will be allowed to continue""Welcome to Linux, Your friendly post-boot screen""The following EU mandates have automatically been implemented"--------------------"EU#543286353 CPU speed set permanently to 0.1% to save power""EU#756483637 Swear word detecting and automatically reporting to Police, keystroke logging detection master script installed""EU#543826734 Mandatory Recycling lessons and habit forming tutorial, to reduce waste, about to start, automatically stops after 35 minutes""EU#543763632 Mandatory Autosleep Function Set to 5 Minutes"home/MK14$ >

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2023, 07:00:42 am
content: Are we doing this? Nihilistic dick-waving?Sigh. Fine.In 2025, GCC announces that x86 is no longer supported, since that paradigm was originally created by old white men.You can still select target ARM, however you will need to also validate a sanctioned NWO user account.To run and test code generated by GCC in a local environment or emulator, you will need to be granted permission and approval from a approved authority, provided you can produce proof of sufficient virtue signal points.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2023, 07:24:30 am
content: Quote from: Ed.Kloonk on June 23, 2023, 07:00:42 amYou're right, x86 is no longer supported.Although they moved onto Arm, that is no longer supported, either.Basically things moved on from Risc-V, into two flavours.The male version, called Risc-XXX, and the female version, called Risque.The first is MALE BIG-Endian, the other female is little-endian.MALE Risc-XXX is now a full 1024 bits long, word size and the Risque's fit into only size 8 (bits)There is also a new, third version of Risc, for those uncertain. Which is called Risc-Q, where Q stands for Quantum Computer. Which uses Quantum-Linked-states, which don't have to be defined until later.For his and her, married couples. They can now have Risc-QE computers.Quantum entanglement, to represent this coupling of two individuals.

author: RoGeorge
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2023, 07:51:57 am
content: Quote from: MMMarco on June 22, 2023, 10:36:16 pmSo why do you think such a code is needed? Why now? GCC worked pretty well for many decades without political rules? Why do GCC need to include contribution from people with mental disabilities? Quote from GCC rules "We strive to be a community that welcomes and supports people of all backgrounds... , and ?mental? or physical ability". That is disturbing, software written by mentally disabled doesn't sound good. And most of all, who is pushing such rules and regulations, and why?Did anybody rejected a GCC patch based on sexual behavior of the submitter? I don't think so. So why is everybody keep specifying that?Such rules are added as if it were a problem to fix, when in fact there was no problem. It's all about fake innuendos, fake accusations, lying and deceiving. The world is driven into ground, slowly but steady. By slowly, it means not years, but generations slowly. Just like the slowly boiled alive frogs. By the time the water is too hot, you can not jump away any more.I know how dictatorship looks like from when Romania was ruled by the Ceausescu regime. Bad news for the western world: We are all in a dictatorship right now. All the westerners, including USA.This wouldn't be the first time when a civilization falls into the wrong hands. The problem is this time there is enough technology and infrastructure to force each and every individual into complying to a small elite. This can not end well. People should start paying attention to long term plans, pay attention who is doing the most outrageous changes/decisions, and why.Happy submitting GCC patches, and happy submitting in general. Or just fork the GCC and continue the good work, just as before. It's up to you to disobey and push back, or to head to a dystopian world.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 23, 2023, 11:03:08 am
content: Quote from: RoGeorge on June 23, 2023, 07:51:57 amIt's 2023, identity politics infects everything. All it takes is for one or a few woke people to push hard for it and no one wants to push back or even laught at it for fear of being branded racist, phobic etc etc.In this case it just looks like a standard modern woke boilerplate ruleset. I'm surprised it got to 2023 without one.

author: gmb42
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2023, 12:18:55 pm
content: As an old white male I've never suffered the problems of racism, misogyny, gender identification etc. but I do have a female friend who works in marketing and the abuse she has suffered from arseholes at conferences, trade shows etc. is unbelievable when all she can do is smile back nicely.If the conduct policies allow her to report unacceptable behaviour and the arseholes get disciplined\reprimanded\ejected then I'm all for that. Those that consider this being "woke" can just fuck off.I have one rule for personal interactions; "don't be a dick". Unfortunately some individuals don't think this applies to them, hence we get ever larger CoC's because those dicks think anything not enumerated as unacceptable behaviour means it's fair game to behave that way.

author: eugene
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2023, 12:20:45 pm
content: I've been saying for a long time that most rules are just common sense (and common decency) for people without any of their own.If GCC suddenly needs a code of conduct it's likely because some participants are suddenly lacking the common sense to be respectful. I don't see any risk to people that already have the common sense and decency required.

author: RoGeorge
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2023, 04:16:40 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on June 23, 2023, 11:03:08 amThat remark made me think the western world is entering the stage 4 of destabilization: Normalization, as briefly explained in this 6 minutes videohttps://youtu.be/IQPsKvG6WMI?t=280There are many longer interviews with Yuri Bezmenov on YouTube, where he explains with details and examples. I don't think he's talking nonsense.Quote from: gmb42 on June 23, 2023, 12:18:55 pmMight be some intercultural idiom, because here "a female friend" would be a dog bitch here, in Ro. I mean such words would refer to a canine, not a women. Also, what exactly did she suffered, and why she didn't reported. I thought UK was always the country gentlemen men. We always have had laws here about protecting women, even during the communism.Not to say, a code of conduct is not a law. So, kind of futile about protecting women. However, such codes of conduct are tool to normalize "inclusion", which for your country (and the EU, too) means illegal immigrants, and turning a blind eye to the wave of crime they brought.Quote from: eugene on June 23, 2023, 12:20:45 pmParticipants suddenly lacking common sense, that's almost like an accusation for any GCC contributors? Do you have some examples, please?I think you don't see any risk because you think this is just one nice code of conduct, and no followups. It's a political thing, it will never stop. It is just a step. Nothing stops without a push back. If you don't believe me, look back in history. Take your own country, or any other country or ideology. Did the colonization stopped when colonies complied? No, they stopped when the colonies pushed back. Did the communism stopped when people submitted? No, it stopped when people push back.I will stop here, but please keep in mind that politicians do not have the mindset of engineers. Same with activists, they don't have the mindset of decent people. Seen this already, here in Romania, 30-50 years ago. But you don't believe me. You don't believe this code of conduct and alike-agenda will never stop by itself.

author: abeyer
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2023, 04:34:03 pm
content: Quote from: RoGeorge on June 23, 2023, 07:51:57 amIn my experience the prevalence of autism spectrum disorders, adhd, anxiety, and others are at least as common within the tech and developer community as the population at large, and I think sometimes even more so. A great many of those people are valued and productive developers contributing to projects. Why would younotwant to include their contributions? Not sure what you find so disturbing about it.

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2023, 05:58:19 pm
content: Thefuck is even going on in this thread>Org states that org representatives should behave politely>fucking forum loses its collective and conservative edge-lord shit

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2023, 08:08:52 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on June 22, 2023, 10:33:50 pmOn a more serious note. I can see one, possibly bad/worrying consequence of these code of conducts.Hypothetically:Let's say there is some great new programming and leadership/project management people, who are not well known at the moment. But if given the right positions and time to grow, will become our future. I will list some names, to give an idea of what I'm talking about.Linus Torvaldshttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linus_TorvaldsRichard Stallmanhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_StallmanFeel free to agree or disagree with my example people, or add your own. I'm primarily referring to a Linus Torvalds, like person.The thing is, on a bad day, either person could easily very badly break the code of conduct rules, which could become mandatory at some point, if not already.E.g. They could get into a furry, and noisily belittle one or more of the programming team, and their work.These tantrums (perhaps less politically correct, these days), can help pull these sometimes large open source (and other types) of software, together in a powerful way. Allowing good progress to take place, and software quality (and other important measures), to be kept at a good level.So, would such people be actually banned from such projects. Potentially losing us great leadership material (opinions can vary).Or would they have to tone things down so much, that it would severely weaken their leadership positions?Sometimes you don't realise what you have got, and how good and optimised it already is. Until you break the golden rule, 'if it ain't broke, don't fix it', and significantly change the way things are done.So it might be done with good intentions, to supposedly improve things overall. But end up, actually making things a lot worse than they already are.A bit like, some companies, do very well. Then these new leaders come along and become the top boss of them. Making lots of changes, which instead of making great products that are really innovative, super fast, cost effective and sell really well.They fiddle about with all sorts of considerably less important to the product things.Ultimately ending up, damaging or destroying the product(s), and losing the business loss of money in the process. Sometimes eventually ending up, in bankruptcy and the company disappearing.This code of conduct, may seem completely innocuous today, and only be around a page or so, long. But often, feature creep and changes, can make it increase in size, dramatically over the years. Eventually potentially damaging the real product(s), such as GCC, that they should really be paying the most concentrated effort on.I.e. Future meetings for GCC, instead of being about GCC itself, its speed of compilation, the speed of the compiled code, bug fixes and various improvements for newer versions.Descend into massive, arguments about how they can make themselves more politically correct, employ/use a more diverse set of people.Then discussing, a huge number of issues raised, about politically correct stuff and so forth.Then the meeting ends, possibly improving the code of conduct stuff, but the GCC project itself, has largely NOT been discussed. Eventually leading to the stagnation of the GCC project (in theory).

author: RoGeorge
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2023, 08:11:00 pm
content: Quote from: abeyer on June 23, 2023, 04:34:03 pmAutism, ADHD and alike doesn't mean mentally disabled to me. Does these means mentally disabled to anybody? I don't think so.ADHD here, in Romania, is popularly called "drac de copil" (a devil child - devil with the sense of a witty and very active/smart/imaginative kid), or as my grandma use to say "ca argintul viu" (like mercury - meaning fluid, that can not be tamed). Won't argue around definitions either. Will just add this topic to ignore so to not waste everybody's time with an online flame.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2023, 08:13:04 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on June 23, 2023, 11:03:08 amI'm not too much. As I mentioned, Linux also got a CoC earlier this year, for the first time. Sure the trend is not brand new, but it's clearly been accelerating the past few months, and I think more open-source projects are likely to also get their CoC if they didn't have one in the next few months.The way it happened for Linux is also both sad and concerning.

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2023, 05:31:39 am
content: Quote from: eugene on June 23, 2023, 12:20:45 pmThat's a pretty big if. Always question the idea that existence of something is a proof it was needed, or even wanted. Most usually it isn't.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 24, 2023, 06:06:03 am
content: Quote from: T3sl4co1l on June 23, 2023, 05:58:19 pmHardly. But we have seen time and time again where this sort of thing leads.Controlled speech, renaming of industry terminology, cancellations if you dare step out of line etc.It always ends up being misused.Always.

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2023, 08:14:22 am
content: Quote from: T3sl4co1l on June 23, 2023, 05:58:19 pm>Some American mad that others mad at American shitEvery timeI know you guys liberated Adolf Hitler and defeated the slaves and that you are the right side of history and can't do no wrong, but you also happen to be the ones with yearly deadly riots over one political bullshit or another. I gather you gotta be some world class experts in polite behavior and getting along together just fineI will choose to remain skeptical when I'm lectured by approximately the same bleeding hearts who brought us such marvels of polite behavior as reverse racism, gender theory with it's ever expanding list of bizarre consequences, implicit hate speech in everything, calling people you dislike the f-word and the n-word as if it meant anything (I mean the progressive f- and n- words, you know which ones) and the general absolute kneejerking paranoia of US politics. Because let's name the elephant in the room: there is one particular country, and maybe one particular culture connected with a small European island, which originates 99% of this woke idiocy these days.Then it doesn't help that several points of those CoC's are known to be interpreted by some as blanket permission for displays of uncontrolled narcissism.Quote from: RoGeorge on June 23, 2023, 08:11:00 pmYou guys are kidding, correct?Just head over to the "computing" subforum here, click any thread with more than 10 pages and you will get a taste of what it's like when a whole industry exploits the labor of mentally handicapped who have never learned properly how to human because they had been patted on their backs for being productive members of the information society instead.When was the last time somebody got banned for the retarded flamewars over there? Was it like, yesterday?After a few years in software, my new life ambition is now to become the next Stalin, execute all web developers and send the rest of software """engineers""" to work mines.

author: gmb42
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2023, 11:39:23 am
content: Quote from: RoGeorge on June 23, 2023, 04:16:40 pmExample #1, a self-identifying dick.

author: newbrain
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2023, 12:28:47 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on June 24, 2023, 06:06:03 am[Citation Needed]Unless by "misuse" you mean "arseholes will, sometimes, maybe, face consequences of being, well, arseholes".

author: newbrain
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2023, 12:34:55 pm
content: Quote from: RoGeorge on June 23, 2023, 04:16:40 pmThis is quite ironic.Guess which nationality was stereotyped in Italy, up to some years ago, as being "lazy workers, or criminals".It was a stupid thing to think then and still it is now, but as a Romanian you might have well been on the receiving side of discrimination.I don't think you would have liked that. I'm sure I would not.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2023, 01:13:44 pm
content: Let me try and express my concerns/worries, in a shorter way.Currently, GCC is completely NOT political.It shouldn't be, but I worry, that the thin end of the wedge of politics, starts creeping into GCC and its directly associated documentation etc.E.g. It ends up changing its licencing terms, so that companies that buck the politically correct way, are NOT allowed to use GCC. I.e. Promoting the 'cancel' culture, in some way.

author: newbrain
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2023, 01:28:05 pm
content: Quote from: MK14 on June 24, 2023, 01:13:44 pmNope.The very moment that happens, they lose rights to the GPLed code base(1), unless they find and get permissions from each and every copyright holder(2) and re-license gcc. Insta-fork will follow.So, unless those terms become part of a "GPLv4" (gcc is licensed with an "or later" clause), not going to happen.(1) The GPL is voided if you try to tack additional conditions on it.https://gcc.gnu.org/onlinedocs/libstdc++/manual/appendix_gpl.html(2) Since 2021 authors need not assign the Copyright to the FSF.https://gcc.gnu.org/pipermail/gcc/2021-June/236182.htmlEtA: Moderators, how is this in Programming? General "technical" chat would seem more appropriate.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2023, 01:40:37 pm
content: Quote from: newbrain on June 24, 2023, 01:28:05 pmThanks. But presumably there are other ways, the apple cart could get upset. My understanding is that projects like GCC, are helped, because a number of programmers from big technological companies, get funded to work on it. If GCC becomes polarised, politically. Some may object and remove their funded programmers.On the other hand. As you suggested, in a worse case scenario. GCC would just get forked, and the new team(s), on the new fork, could decide upon their own 'Code of Conduct', or even decide to go back to having none.So, I suppose my concerns/worries, should be alright in practice, for the reasons you already stated in your post. Just that it might, in hopefully rare circumstances, end up getting forked.

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2023, 03:48:16 pm
content: QuoteThis will be used to silence issues the authors do not want to address.A major problem in GCC development in the past (up till 10-15 years ago or so) was the core developers forming a clique that did not accept any kind of criticism from anyone without at least a PhD in CS.I know from personal experience that things like trying to address quadmath (quad precision FP, 128-bit floating point math) dynamic allocation alignment requirements is considered harassment by the GCC developers, because the C standard does not require such, therefore it is not needed. (Which means if you wanted to use quadmath, you'll need to useposix_memalign()for dynamic allocation.)Now, such GCC devs can simply tell the bug reporter at the mailing list or bugzilla that this is harassment of the GCC authors, and to please stop.If the bug reporter insists, they will be banned, based on the CoC.Nice tool for avoiding responsibility and interaction.For the Linux kernel, the CoC has lead to a large fraction of kernel developers not responding to emails addressed to them and to the mailing list, unless the sender is already known. It is just easier to not answer, than risk being in violation of CoC.So, I'm not painting pictures of whatcouldhappen, I'm telling what these CoCs have already caused in in related FOSS projects.And the GCC project has done so much work to try and address their hostility towards "outside" contributions in the last decade...It is interesting that these CoC's never address shunning or ignoring communications based on personal beliefs, ideology, or feelings.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2023, 03:50:35 pm
content: Quote from: Nominal Animal on June 24, 2023, 03:48:16 pmIf you've already been told they're not interested in whatever change you want made, then yes, it actually is. If someone didn't like the length you cut your grass and bugged you about it every fortnight, what would you call that?Quote from: Nominal Animal on June 24, 2023, 03:48:16 pmWhy should it? They have the right to just not deal with you. You have no right to demand their time.

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2023, 04:02:42 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on June 24, 2023, 03:50:35 pmGood question!The simple answer is that when you let personal beliefs, ideology, and feelings affect your work, especially engineering and scientific work, the end result suffers.Like I said, this has been perceived as a problem before in the GCC development, by the GCC project itself. It lead to many compiler bugs and issues persisting over several years, even when a fix was already available. These CoC's either deliberately or accidentally allow developers desiring to engage in such activities (concentrate on writing new code, instead of fixing the issues they caused), the tools to socially do so.It seems to me that instating CoC's like this, negates/nullifies a lot of the work done to make sure the community actually works; to keep the entire project alive and worth participating in.

author: AndyBeez
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2023, 04:53:05 pm
content: So GCC zentral requested their contributors respect each other and play nice?Obviously they have little regard for the way these online tech brommunities function. Less behaving like intelligent grownups and more acting up like Musk/Zuckerberg cage rage retards.Just play nice in Dave's house.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2023, 05:31:31 pm
content: Quote from: Nominal Animal on June 24, 2023, 04:02:42 pmSo we need a CoC which forces people to engage with others against their wishes? Or go back to having no rules as to behaviour where people can equally choose to ignore others?

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2023, 05:53:34 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on June 24, 2023, 05:31:31 pmNo, neither.What I object to, is CoC which focuses onfeelingsandoffense, instead of getting the best out of each possible contributor. They paper over things so they're no longer visible, instead of actuallyfixinganything.My English skills are not sufficient for drafting a better one, but the points I'd like to see addressed are, roughly,Be responsible. Ignoring valid criticism harms everyone.Criticism of your contributions is not targeted at your person, it is targeted at a thing. There is no need to take offense.The project relies of effective collaboration. Avoiding collaboration because of social reasons harms everyone, and is counterproductive.Question is, why the detailed CoC's do not include such guidance, and instead concentrate on feelings and offense? The above harms every single community project at least as much as nasty word use does. Very few projects have ever been harmed by sensitive snowflakes storming away in a huff, having been offended for one reason or another. Why not tackle the real issues too, when tackling the popular social emotive ones?

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2023, 06:03:16 pm
content: Quote from: Nominal Animal on June 24, 2023, 05:53:34 pmQuoteQuote from: Nominal Animal on June 24, 2023, 05:53:34 pmThis is more or less the reciprocal of:Quote

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2023, 07:53:21 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on June 24, 2023, 06:06:03 amOn the other hand, some/all of the CoC, might mean that a wider audience of possible talent, can enter into discussions. Without being put off.Unlike the situation before, with no CoC's being implemented, which could mean it was a sort of wild west frontier type of zone. Where only battle hardened, soldiers, with arrogance and perhaps other not so pleasant characteristics, roam.So, maybe in time it will lead to good things.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 24, 2023, 10:59:55 pm
content: Quote from: MK14 on June 24, 2023, 07:53:21 pmBased on experience over the last decade of identity politics being rammed into almost every corner of society, it likely won't lead to good things.I'd be willing to bet money on it.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2023, 11:22:14 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on June 24, 2023, 10:59:55 pmAnalogy: There is going to be a big meetup of Electronics and other technical people, limited to a maximum of 50 people, the topic vaguely being vintage electronics and computers.(A bit like your somewhat recent Tandy/Radio-Shack meetup in Australia Video, with Dick Smith Kits). I.e. Like this:https://youtu.be/KKEYAdXEW-MYou can design the advert for it.If you take that advert and significantly change it, in fundamental ways. Maybe aiming for a completely different type of people.Then who those 50 people will end up being, can totally change.So, these new CoC, may change the mix of people that interact, in meetings and various communication meetings. But that WON'T necessarily improve things really.I.e. (From your post, I just quoted) You could well be right.E.g. worded correctly as it was, originally. Ended up with the existing 50 people, as per the video I linked to above. Resulting in (apparently) a really interesting and fun, successful meeting.But if the original advert was written in an extreme politically correct way, making it open and attractive for ANYONE, even people who have no knowledge about electronics/computers, absolutely ZERO interest in vintage electronics/computers, but who were interested in the free entry, and (hypothetical in my example) big supply of free food and refreshments.You could end up with the first 50 people being hungry, homeless people, who just want the food. There then ends up being a big fight over who gets the food, all the laptops and other stuff gets stolen, and all your camera equipment gets stolen. Etc.So the politically correct stuff sounds really good. But in practice, making things a free for all, doesn't necessarily lead to good results.Sorry, my example is perhaps too extreme, but it is to try to make a point.

author: newbrain
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2023, 04:36:09 am
content: And the point seems to be (in general, not you in particular) that abuse of a rule is more worrying and important than abuse of persons.Point taken, but not agreed.The radio ham community has had an informal CoC since, brace for it, 1928.In 2008 it was formalized and adopted more officially.It does not look like we are on an impending catastrophe for that.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2023, 08:36:33 am
content: Quote from: newbrain on June 25, 2023, 04:36:09 amI'm actually coming from the complete OPPOSITE point of view. Let me explain.A rather long time ago, perhaps 5 to 15 years ago, there was a fairly big open source project (which I don't want to name, for reasons), which I wanted to get changed (improved).I researched it, and it was almost certain, that their (the people who run that free, open source project), had (if I'd said which project, I'd feel bad, saying these things about it, publicly) very significant attitude issues (such as being extremely pedantic/arrogant/unfriendly/elitist etc). By looking through the past historical (things like the official mailing list (if applicable) and/or forums and/or other internet accessible things).I discovered that there was ZERO chance they would even vaguely consider my idea(s).So, at the time, I was very disappointed (although I didn't even try, others had, with essential identical or near identical ideas), and the answer was always a big fat "NO!".So, now, some 5 to 15 years later, the project is still missing these features.There are/were alternatives, actually quite a few. Ironically one of those alternatives, actually implements essentially identical idea(s), that I (and others), wanted that project to implement. But in general the alternatives, are significantly worse, than the main project leader (I'm talking about), for this software type/functionality.So in effect, I wanted that project, 5 to 15 years ago, to have a nice friendly CoC, then I and others, could have, hopefully got our various 'improvements' put into the project.But, now, perhaps 10 years later, I'm older, wiser, have more (or different) experience, and actually realize that the changes we proposed, were actually a terrible idea, and would have harmed the project.Because it turns out, if they had put those ideas/changes into the software project, it would have ended up breaking lots of things, in extremely big and bad ways, which at the time, many years ago, I had not even slightly appreciated.So I'm now actually pleased they ignored a lot of people, as it has helped save the project and perhaps kept it going.On the other hand. I do criticize them, for not at least using their vast experience and knowledge, to reasonably carefully explain to lesser mortals. The technical reasons, on why the various proposed changes, were NOT really possible/practicable, because of what are essential compatibility issues.Changing things, so that the 'modernisation' could take place, would have been an almost impossible nightmare. Because it would have stopped perhaps thousands (yes, I really mean 1,000's), of other open source projects. Because they depended on it NOT changing the way and syntax etc, of how it works.Each of those thousands of other projects, could have taken perhaps 6 months of very hard work, to implement the necessary changes. Hence the almost impossible nightmare to change things.Worse still, they could only officially change things for their own (big, or super big), project. The other thousands of projects which depended on the project (I'm refusing to name), were potentially out of their control, and they would only be able to suggest changes to the original authors, which may or may not, be implemented, sometime.So in summary. An enforced CoC, especially in my real-life example, but I suspect there are a huge number of projects in a similar boat. May not really be a good thing.Edit: Warning, possible slight/partial factual errors. The GIST of the text is right. But I'm still NOT a big expert on the aforementioned open source project, so some of the details may be incorrect. The overall concept to still ok, I think.

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2023, 08:50:09 am
content: Quote from: newbrain on June 25, 2023, 04:36:09 amNo, I disagree.Take myself for an example. I do not abuse people. (I mean, the idea of meexploitingothers, or trolling others just to get "kicks", makes me literally sick. Even contemplating the idea starts making my stomach upset. It is a core part of/value to myself: I want everyone I interact with togainfrom the interaction.)Yet, I do annoy people a lot. In the vast majority of cases, it is unintended. (I do occasionally use the pattern where I deliberately annoy someone, then immediately – in the same message – turn around and (try to) provide very real, very useful and applicable information and advise. This has been necessary at times to "jolt" the person out of an unproductive line of thought or pattern of action, because emotion cuts through the conscious mind.)Sometimes, it is a language failure. My language output istechnical: I carefully work out the words and sentences, and try to anticipate the way the message is understood, but because of my own personal faults, I often miss the subtext and 'tone', causing a misunderstanding.Other times, I just.. fail.I fully agree that intentional abuse, verbal or physical, is reprehensible and should not be allowed in any community.Exactly how that should be policed, varies. I prefer a direct, stern warning, instead of e.g. temporary auto-bans, because that way an accidental 'abuser' can explain it was not their intention, and apologise. (Because this is what I want to do, if I do accidentally do that. Like I said, I do not do it intentionally,ever. If I was just silently auto-banned with a note, I would have to remove myself from the community.)More importantly, what each individual perceives as abuse, varies. The worst kind of verbal abuse towards myself is not name-calling, but twisting my words as if they meant something else; completely ignoring my responses; and knowingly not admitting an error and acknowledging a fix to "save face" (or keep ones popularity score up).Thus, a successful Code of Conduct has to focus on making the most out of each possible contributor. It must not focus on ensuring the community has the least amount of abuse, because even technical matters sometimes require stern words and raised emotions to get the message through, and some members have a ridiculously low barrier of labeling something as abuse. Avoidance of annoyance and negative emotions completely, is not useful: only avoidingunnecessaryandintentionalannoyance and negative emotions is, and even then there may be acceptable exceptions.The kind of people that plague communities can be characterised as"players". They routinely use social manipulation, because that is what keeps them going and gives them the jollies they're after. These also immensely enjoy exploiting the rules against the members of the community; even moreso when they manage to affect the rules to include cracks they can exploit. This is nothing new, and is easiest to see in Western countries' tax codes. Psychologically, we call such people 'sociopaths'. I can name a few prominent ones in various communities, too, pointing out their past behaviour (as recorded in mailing lists etc.), and discussing their hugely negative effects on those communities.I hate"players". It is their behaviour that I refer to, when I mention "social games". It is them, when I talk about the dangers with CoCs, or any community rules. I see the damage that kind of people have caused and continuously cause, and consider it a bigger danger than the small squabbles between community members who fail to behave in a sensible manner towards each other. So, it is not the rule per se, but how such rules are applied in practice.(Edit: No community I've participated in, not even the just-us-guys ones, have allowed groping or accosting anyone or anything of that sort. Off-color jokes yes, but typically directed at oneself, because they're funnier that way. Like I like to tell jokes about us Finns. I also like utterly absurd jokes and comics, which some perceive as racist and offensive, but to me are just so absurd and ridiculous they're actually funny.)In summary, with respect to Codes of Conduct, having observed and participated in communities without them for decades, Idobelieve that the risk of giving additional tools to sociopathic social players is greater than the sum of small squabbles and hurt feelings between ordinary productive members that the CoC can alleviate, because of the wording of these CoCs.As a comparison, I do not see any similar dangers (as the wording I quoted inin my first postto this thread) in theDebian Code of Conduct. I like the Debian CoC, and just simply agree with it. It could be better (but I cannot draft a better one myself), and perhaps it also has such cracks, but I personally don't see any.And don't laugh! I am fully aware of "4. Try to be concise", and am working on it.

author: DiTBho
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2023, 12:46:14 pm
content: Social games... don't abuse people... makes me think of people like James, who trolls and can call you "mentally ill" to disrupt discussions.People like him know how to do their job, and they certainly don't stop even when you point out that they have passed the limits, so they go ahead using their linguistic ability to twist whatever you want to say, disturb the discussion, play their social games to manipulate others and piss you off for frustration, consequently leading the audience to find you more annoying than the troll who is pressing you.No moderators chimed in to point out that it's nothing but pointless and toxic behavior, but they don't need to chime in, don't abuse people if you're aiming for mutual benefit is quite the point when it comes to ethical conduct for discussions that are intellectually fruitful.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2023, 01:04:35 pm
content: Quote from: DiTBho on June 25, 2023, 12:46:14 pmIt is tricky.Some issues, get on some peoples nerves, some of the time. Which sometimes triggers, dominant, bordering on abusive behaviour or worse.E.g. IF I DO THISI know it can annoy some people.In the situation you brought up. I think they, right at the beginning, should have accepted that it is your right as an individual, to choose what you like and don't like. Then stopped.NOT go on and on .....about it and start accusing you of things.The thing is, regularly bad forum members, can be warned, then excluded if necessary. But when it is more of a one off situation, it is much harder to deal with.This forums CoC, is basically (see top right of main forum page):QuoteWhich I see as being roughly translated into 'Use your Common Sense'.

author: DiTBho
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2023, 01:30:35 pm
content: Quote from: MK14 on June 25, 2023, 01:04:35 pmYup, plus, as a popularizer I suck. 100% my fault there.Maybe it's worth it for my coming Youtube channel.We will see

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2023, 02:13:46 pm
content: We also need to remember that those with the social and linguistic skills playing their games, truly believeeveryone does it too; that it is normal.Many see nothing wrong in it, and just see it as themselves using the skills they have to achieve the goals they want: as "fair game".I can see how it can be necessary in a competitive world, and I know how important and necessary it is in the business world, but it is counterproductive in a cooperative technical community, because there, it is the facts and work that should rule, not persons or interpersonal interactions, otherwise the end product suffers.The Ignore list is an useful tool for avoiding that here on EEVblog forums, especially because you can every now and then clear the list, and see if things have changed. I believe it is best to consider it as a tool to control ones own reactions, i.e. to avoid interacting with members you believe you cannot mutually beneficially interact with.It is also important to not get bitter or vindictive. We each only see a small part of the communications, so it is not reasonable to expect to see people being taken to task. Instead, we need to just treat each thread as a new start from blank state, and observe how it goes.Quote from: MK14 on June 25, 2023, 01:04:35 pmYep. I also like the common "Don't be a dick" one.

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2023, 03:08:09 pm
content: I wonder if these peeps that enforce obnoxious CoC on everybody even realize the irony of their behaviour.

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2023, 03:22:21 pm
content: Quote from: Ed.Kloonk on June 25, 2023, 03:08:09 pmI suspect they truly believe they are making the world a better place.The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

author: DiTBho
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2023, 11:14:46 pm
content: Quote from: Nominal Animal on June 25, 2023, 02:13:46 pmIn my opinion, when things don't go with a forum topic, it's not worth with to spend more time.There are other better occasions, better devote time to other things in the meantime.

author: sokoloff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2023, 04:42:04 pm
content: Are we worried about the fact of there being a code of conduct at all? Or about the contents of it?If it's the former, I have some bad news to share: EEVBlog forum has the equivalent already. It hasn't resulted in the destruction of civilization yet, I think because of sensible content and sensible enforcement.https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/forum-rules-please-read/

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2023, 12:13:21 pm
content: Quote from: sokoloff on June 26, 2023, 04:42:04 pmIf you had read the previous posts, you'd know it is the latter.

author: dferyance
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2023, 06:08:19 pm
content: I get the strong sense that whoever authored that code of conduct has never actually met someone from a different background. It is remarkable how a document that purports to be welcoming can be written in such a way to be exclusive. Some of it seems reasonable but it is intermixed with unnecessary language. I think if it was slimmed down to just the welcoming, tolerant and kind message, it would be fine.Just the responses on this forum shows how this code of conduct makes people feel. It is written in a divisive manner.I looked at the debian code of conduct mentioned earlier in this topic, seems pretty reasonable to me.

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2023, 10:39:01 pm
content: Quote from: Nominal Animal on June 27, 2023, 12:13:21 pmWell, your previous posts; I can't say the same for the earliest posts in this thread. Hence my seemingly knee-jerk reaction, at least.The conservative / RWA / various other aspects -- whatever you want to call it -- the mindset reacts to the existence of ruleson principle, since, that's it, that's the name, to "conserve" existing values whatever those might be, regardless whether they're understood to any degree, or proven to be good or bad; the strategy is to resist change on the assumption that it's "always" for the worse. It's a victimized mindset: "I've altered the rules, pray I don't alter them further" -- what could be more chilling? But in particular, thatthisreaction is the complete reaction; not only is there no effort to understand what the changes might mean, but there is an active rejection to understand those rules. This plays out at-large in, you know, about half of US politics at the moment, but it's based on an individual response, personality type, and is psychological rather than political in nature. The politics is the consequence of the existence of this psychology.Whereas, given a deeper understanding of the political process (in the abstract -- of the group, the organization of the project), what's relevant is not some random text, or even a code of rules per se, but the process of determining and adjudicating them. That is, how many people are involved relative to those in the overall project, how closely they are involved, and how much influence they have on it.Words don't matter, it's what people do with them that matters.A project ruled by one or few iron-fisted leaders will likely take a strong authoritarian position, while one driven by frequent discussions and polls will likely take a democratic position. Neither of which is necessarily a problem -- at least for project-scale groups like these, it's possible to have the "enlightened, benevolent dictator" type, with a more strict hierarchical structure that reduces management burden on others. But it's also very possible to have the opposite case, a manipulating, controlling, gaslighting dictator who allows no questioning of their authority or project vision. (And, it seems, the latter case is exponentially more likely as scale goes up, hence almost all nation-scale examples, with a few arguable historical exceptions.)Anyway, that's where that's coming from. Note I'm not accusing anyone's psychology. The lack of discussion in the initial responses might be some shared understanding [that I lack], but it seems to fit into the above mold much better (and, at most, hinting at psychology).Tim

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2023, 11:02:37 pm
content: It's not right or left or glass half full or empty, it's right and wrong. And this is so wrong. And been wrong for too long.I'm a poet and I didn't know it.

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 28, 2023, 09:14:24 am
content: Quote from: T3sl4co1l on June 27, 2023, 10:39:01 pmWhat the hell?My first post in this thread wasreply #31, pointing out the sentence I have a problem with in that CoC, and why.When prompted by Monkeh, inreply #36, I explained I don't have the language skills to draft a replacement or fix, but described in my own words what I'd like to see as a replacement.As newbrain accused me (among others) to be more concerned about rules than the abuse of persons, in#43, I pointed out a CoC I like,Debian Code of Conduct:Quote from: Nominal Animal on June 25, 2023, 08:50:09 amTake particular note ofbecause of the wording of these CoCs.Would you mind explaining, T3sl4co1l, how the hell you can read the above, and then start with an accusation about me having aconservative mindset more focused on rules than their effects?It is the fucking effect of poor wording (with ostensibly good intent) that I am worried about and pointing out!Fuck it, my language skills must be even worse than I thought.

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 28, 2023, 04:39:58 pm
content: Quote from: Nominal Animal on June 28, 2023, 09:14:24 amYeah, I'm referring to those earlier replies.Maybe I should've put more separation between my first line, and the rest, sorry. To be precise: your "previous posts" are "about the contents" (as you said), and my concern was that the earliest replies might not (hence my first reply). I felt it worth explaining said reply, and went on to do so.Tim

author: scuzzyTerminator
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2023, 09:25:53 pm
content: QuoteThe code is not about protecting women. It is about protecting men disguised as women. Huge difference.

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2023, 10:01:15 pm
content: Quote from: scuzzyTerminator on June 30, 2023, 09:25:53 pmYou can fuck outta here with that trans panic bullshit.Tim

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2023, 03:49:02 am
content: Gee. That escalated quickly. I wonder who it is that is panicking.

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2023, 04:33:28 am
content: Quote from: Ed.Kloonk on July 01, 2023, 03:49:02 amA robust society cannot tolerate intolerance. I will not tolerate it in any space I consider myself a part of.Tim

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2023, 04:35:57 am
content: Quote from: T3sl4co1l on July 01, 2023, 04:33:28 amI want to think about that sentence and help me understand how it possibly makes any sense to you.

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2023, 04:47:18 am
content: It is quite clear by definition; only its phrasing seems paradoxical. See:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_toleranceTim

author: DiTBho
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2023, 08:56:17 am
content: Quote from: T3sl4co1l on July 01, 2023, 04:47:18 am"we are all slaves to the rules to be free"