The worlds most expensive USB cable (yes...for audiophiles) - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: FrankenPC
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 15, 2014, 03:26:16 am
content: This is a good one.It starts here with a blog entry about a new £480 USB cable:http://www.pocket-lint.com/news/129399-meet-the-480-usb-cable-from-computer-audio-design-an-audiophile-s-dac-dreamThat leads me to a company called Computer Audio Design (CAD):http://www.computeraudiodesign.com/cad-cable/No real meat there. Just suggested awesomeness.A link to a audiophiles website from CAD:http://the-ear-net.blogspot.fr/2012/11/cad-cable-controversy.htmlWith this incredible declaration:The change from the best USB cable I have found to date was nothing short of staggering.How come? Scott won't say what he's done save that it's not about the materials and that he has applied for a patent to protect his discovery. So it must be something unusual. I've heard quite a few well regarded USB cables and there are always tangible differences but nothing has come close to transforming the result like this.The level of resolution it brings to the picture is extraordinary, I am hearing things that no other system has suggested were there. Most obviously in terms of note decay and acoustic space - the air of the recording environment - but fundamentally across the board.

author: Richard Crowley
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2014, 05:37:50 am
content: These people are simply pathological. They live in a completely separate universe where the same rules of physics and even logic simply don't apply to them.This is the definitive example for the coining of the term "audiophool".

author: grumpydoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2014, 07:55:04 am
content: This is a world where you can getgold and rhodium plated mains plugsbecause they "sound better" so what do you expectAlthough at £25 for the rhodium plated version it's almost a bargain

author: G7PSK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2014, 08:54:27 am
content: Quote from: grumpydoc on June 15, 2014, 07:55:04 amI like the standard MK branded plug treated with De-OXit and priced at £6-00 only.For that money I could get my own bottle of cleaner and polish the plug on the end of the cable I would need too as it would need polishing every time it was plunged into the dirty socket.Should I market my gold plated polishing stick for cleaning the socket contacts.Or the electron sieve as graded electrons make finer sound.

author: mcinque
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 15, 2014, 08:56:25 am
content: oh god, this is really fun!!I can't believe so much ignorance. Not even for an illiterate. More of this, PLEASE!

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2014, 10:22:15 am
content: It is their money so they can spend it however they like.

author: abaxas
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2014, 10:31:52 am
content: No harm in a nice cable.

author: rob77
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2014, 12:55:44 pm
content: ROFLMAOit must be the best deal ever - it's just 1 GBP per 1Mbps"And it's so confident that it's touting a 30-day money-back guarantee for anyone that isn't impressed."of course those guys buying this will be impressed - Placebo effect is much much stronger than common sense

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2014, 01:12:38 pm
content: It's not the placebo effect, it's called cognitive dissonance. If you buy a USB cable 100 times more expensive than the common one and your brain realises that, it tries to compensate the discomfort of the bad decision and makes you believe that the sound via the expensive cable is better.

author: mcinque
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 15, 2014, 01:13:45 pm
content: Quote from: rob77 on June 15, 2014, 12:55:44 pmThe more they spend, the better the sound will be (at least, their perception of it).Quote from: dannyf on June 15, 2014, 10:22:15 amCertainly. But they cannot state that with that "high-end" cables the sound is better.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2014, 01:20:21 pm
content: QuotePerception is all it matters.What good does "good sound" do if you cannot / don't perceive it as good?

author: andtfoot
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 15, 2014, 01:27:19 pm
content: Nope... not the most expensive.The most expensive I've seen so far is the "Chord Sarum tune ARAY' at £750 for 1m.http://www.chord.co.uk/product/chord-sarum-usb-tuned-aray-digital-interconnect-type-a-to-type-b/At the bottom of this page for the price.http://www.decoaudio.com/deco_audio_usb.htmlI'm not even going to copy-paste the justification for the price, or the 'reviews', for fear of my brain exploding.That's peanuts though compared to some of the analogue interconnects I've seen floating around... £3700 for 1m Nordost Valhalla RCA cables anyone? How about £5000 for 1m of unterminated AN-Sogon LX96 speaker cable?

author: rob77
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2014, 02:02:41 pm
content: actually one could make his living on thisbuying really high quality USB cables with gold plated connectors for something line 30Euro each and slip them into white cable cover + 2 pieces of white glossy heat shrink tubing.... hm..... call it MegaSauron-UltraChorus 3000 and .... profit !!!!

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2014, 02:04:50 pm
content: Quote from: dannyf on June 15, 2014, 10:22:15 amI'm not sure anyone claimed they couldn't.

author: mcinque
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 15, 2014, 02:26:06 pm
content: Quote from: andtfoot on June 15, 2014, 01:27:19 pm"a wonderfully textured midband""instruments easier to place in all three dimensions""The scale of soundstage is also very impressive"I wonder why noone can do a simple "double blind" hearing test between this snake poison items and standard cheap cables...

author: FrankenPC
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 15, 2014, 08:03:52 pm
content: These people aren't audiophiles, they're digidiots. Clearly they have no idea how digital works.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2014, 08:13:28 pm
content: QuoteThat's too scientific.Things like "audiophile cables", or global warming, are faith-based products: it is true if you believe it to be true. Contravening facts don't exist. Logic reasoning and critical thinking shall not apply. Appeal to authority is paramount...

author: GreyWoolfe
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 15, 2014, 08:20:36 pm
content: I doubt that anyone would agree to a double blind test. They wouldn't want to be made an (audio)phool of.[quote: I wonder why noone can do a simple "double blind" hearing test between this snake poison items and standard cheap cables...Anyway, if they have the disposable income to waste on this nonsense, let them if it makes them happy. I know if I had the disposable income to buy a $50,000 scope that I wouldn't/couldn't use a tenth of its' function, I would still do it if it would make me happy.

author: mcinque
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 15, 2014, 08:53:20 pm
content: Quote from: GreyWoolfe on June 15, 2014, 08:20:36 pmThe same for me! But it's a little bit different: in the audio foolery they promise terrific audio improvements without any comparison tests. They rely only on the perception of the user.A million dollar DSO can't promise you that you'll see detailed waveforms never seen before without detailed specs about its performance.And of course if you purchase it, it will not operate like an usual, tradional 50 MHz bandwith scope.It's not ethical to sell this kind of products,it's the same principle that is used with homeopathy.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2014, 08:59:54 pm
content: QuoteThe difference is quite small actually.QuoteWhat if the best measurement of audio improvement is indeed human hearing?Going back to your scope example, what if someone tells you that this new super-duper scope has really impressive specs that goes way beyond what a human perception could possibly detect. Or what you could possibly use.Is it still worth its billion dollar price tag?

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2014, 09:30:01 pm
content: Quote from: dannyf on June 15, 2014, 08:59:54 pmThe difference is that the scope actually has functionality beyond a lower-end scope. I strongly suspect you know enough about electricity to realize that any claims about this cable being any different from any other are horseshit. You're just being obtuse. Whether or not an individual can make use of the oscilloscope does not change the fact that it actually does things that another does not. Anyone trying to sell something like this cable on the basis that it sounds better is lying to defraud the less knowledgeable.Now, if someone has the money, and wants the cable for another reason (it looks good to them, whatever) that's fine. There are definitely things I don'tneedthat I would buy if I had the spare change. But if they think it will actually perform better, they're rather dull, and if someone tells them that to convince them to buy it, that person is a jackass.

author: mcinque
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 15, 2014, 09:36:50 pm
content: Quote from: dannyf on June 15, 2014, 08:59:54 pmThe fact that someone hears (or feels) something doesn't mean that is real. For example some people swear to hear ghosts talking or see UFOs in the sky.Our perception is always influenced by a state of mind. Like in any medical research, you cannot start from what you are expecting to find, otherwise you'll find what you're expecting. This is why many double blind tests on drugs shows impressive results: many patients have an improvement in their disease even if they are in the group of placebo, so they are taking sugar, basically. But the fact they BELIEVE to assume a drug change their state of mind, with terrific results: they expect to feel better and in most cases (50%) it works.Quote from: dannyf on June 15, 2014, 08:59:54 pmOh, they should explain mefor whothey've designed that oscilloscope...

author: mcinque
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 15, 2014, 09:38:38 pm
content: Quote from: mcinque on June 15, 2014, 09:36:50 pmQuote from: c4757p on June 15, 2014, 09:30:01 pmtotally agree

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2014, 09:47:53 pm
content: QuoteTwo points:1) Why do you care if it is real or not. If you perceive an improvement, does it matter if there is no improvement? If voodoo cures your illness, do you insist on going back to sickness?2) The fact that you cannot measure a difference doesn't bean there is no difference. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.End of the day, it is an arm's length transaction. As long as the buyer is happy, who are we so worked up about it?

author: Richard Crowley
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2014, 10:09:37 pm
content: Quote from: dannyf on June 15, 2014, 01:20:21 pmNO, that is not true. It is not "perception" we are talking about here it is blind faith. The "Placebo Effect" if you will.If it were truly "perception", then the believers would submit to a double-blind test to prove their "perception".But they perpetually reject any and all objective tests as "irrelevant" or "immaterial".That is why I accused them of being from another universe where the same natural laws don't apply.(Of course, the reason they reject any kind of objective test is because they fail every time, proving their theory completely false.)

author: Richard Crowley
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2014, 10:13:55 pm
content: Quote from: dannyf on June 15, 2014, 09:47:53 pmBecause most of us have an inner sense of doing right, which precludes people cheating others.And it is entertaining to read such completely outlandish claims these shysters apparently pull out of their uh... hats.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2014, 10:21:00 pm
content: QuoteLet's say that's indeed the case.The big picture here is that someone is happy about his purchases, due to whatever reason.Isn't that the best use of his money, to buy happiness?QuoteIf someone tells you a lie that makes you feel good. Are you still a victim?

author: Richard Crowley
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2014, 10:24:35 pm
content: Quote from: dannyf on June 15, 2014, 10:21:00 pmAt the risk of forking this into a philosophical discussion, YES, you are the victim of a liar. However good it makes you feel for the moment. It will almost certainly come back and bite you in the backside and you will likely be worse off for the experience. But then I guess the number of people who believe in absolute truth are dwindling rapidly.

author: rob77
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2014, 10:27:29 pm
content: Quote from: dannyf on June 15, 2014, 09:47:53 pmyou nailed it to the cross !but anyways, i'll be still laughing on those guys... mainly because the majority of them just pretend they perceive an improvementvast majority of them are just buying those extremely expensive things to show how rich they arep.s. regarding laughing at someone.... others are for sure laughing at me for some whatever reason... but hey ! that's life !everything is alright if we're all happy

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2014, 10:29:07 pm
content: Quote1. What if you feel good for ever (=your end of life)?2. science is evolving. So that's true today may not be true tomorrow and vice versa.QuoteI guess that's a very good thing: you have to have faith to believe in absolute truth.

author: Richard Crowley
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2014, 10:33:00 pm
content: Quote from: dannyf on June 15, 2014, 09:47:53 pmYou must have missed the point of not willing to submit to perceptual/subjective testing as well.If you cannot measure a difference, and you cannot demonstrate that you can HEAR a difference, either, then perhaps we don't agree even on what "difference" means."The length of this conversation has greatly exceeded my interest in it. -- Casey McCall in "Sports Night"

author: AlfBaz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2014, 10:41:58 pm
content: Quote from: dannyf on June 15, 2014, 09:47:53 pmQuote from: dannyf on June 15, 2014, 10:21:00 pm...and this is the problem with an unfettered market driven economy, some if its proponents think making money is the end game no matter how you get there.If you are trying to get a loan, have a low income stream, poorly researched your purchase, and a lending institution borrows you that money, you are happy right? Until you and many like you are unable to pay it back, the bank tries to recoup its money by seizing and selling assets and finds theactualvalue of those assets is no where near the money lent for it, and the bank goes broke... a little far fetched but... oh wait, the GFCBack on topic. Lets all start charging more for embedded audio applications because the source was written withnaturalbase ten numbers and none of that noisy digital hex crap

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2014, 11:22:58 pm
content: QuoteThe same can be said about dark matter / dark energy and a gazillion other things. It doesn't mean they don't exist (or they do for that matter). The right approach is to keep an open mind, rather than writing them off because you don't have positive confirmation.QuoteOver the long-term, that's actually the preferred outcome - stupid borrowers and equally stupid lenders are punished and drove out of the market place -> the market becomes more efficient.If that didn't happen, the market would never invest in information discovery and discriminatory underwriting.

author: ludzinc
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 15, 2014, 11:30:52 pm
content: Quote from: dannyf on June 15, 2014, 11:22:58 pmNo no no no no!Dark Energy is hypothesised to support otherwise unexplained observations. We are measuring something out there that we cannot currently quantify.The exact opposite of Audiophoolery!

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2014, 11:49:04 pm
content: QuoteMore like our theories need it to work but we cannot detect / measure it, yet.Seems to be pretty good comparison with anything audio.

author: Richard Crowley
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2014, 12:20:31 am
content: Quote from: dannyf on June 15, 2014, 11:22:58 pmNo, it isn't the same thing at all. You don't even appear to understand the argument, so there is no point continuing it.QuoteYeah, right up until the Government steps in again (which was the problem in the first place). Ever heard the joke "We're from the government and we're here to help you."

author: Stonent
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2014, 01:33:16 am
content: Reminds me of Hyacinth "Bucket", asking the meter man if there was something wrong with the water supply because it didn't sparkle quite as much as it used to. Then another time she told the electric company that she wanted to make sure the electricity went to her house first because she didn't want to be downstream of other people's second hand dirty electricity.

author: mcinque
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 16, 2014, 11:24:47 am
content: Quote from: dannyf on June 15, 2014, 09:47:53 pmBecause I'm real, and I live in a real world.Quote from: dannyf on June 15, 2014, 09:47:53 pmOh yes, a lot! It could be even a brain disease symptom.Quote from: dannyf on June 15, 2014, 09:47:53 pmThe point is that voodoo does not cure anything at all. And since this, if the shaman cures my illness, that means that my illness wasn't real. And of course cannot ask me a penny for his magic.Quote from: dannyf on June 15, 2014, 09:47:53 pmThis is true when you apply this concept to things that you cannot measure in any way (like atoms existance dilemma hundred years ago). Or yourQuote from: dannyf on June 15, 2014, 11:22:58 pmBut in this context (audio quality) it's easy to compare two different cables by measuring their effect on the frequency and dynamic response. We CAN measure it.EDIT: and after seeing that the cable doesn't matter and the audio quality is the same for both, if you hear an improvement you're just imagining. And how can you ask me money for using my imagination?Quote from: dannyf on June 15, 2014, 09:47:53 pmBecause they cheat. Because they lie. And ask money for this.

author: abaxas
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2014, 11:59:52 am
content: FFS.Why are people not allowed to buy shiny things? If it keeps them happy, I'm all for it.* same with designed clothes, bling tools, etc.

author: GreyWoolfe
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 16, 2014, 01:45:58 pm
content: Fromn Rob77--but anyways, i'll be still laughing on those guys... mainly because the majority of them just pretend they perceive an improvementvast majority of them are just buying those extremely expensive things to show how rich they arep.s. regarding laughing at someone.... others are for sure laughing at me for some whatever reason... but hey ! that's life !everything is alright if we're all happyHey, Rob77 are you implying that it is all about who has the bigger "cable"?I agree with you, I know others are laughing at me as I am laughing at me all the time. I have discovered that laughter is 'chicken soup' for the soul. The shame of it is that it took 55 years of my life to find that out. SWMBO says I am still a bit too serious but I am doing better. If she says it, it must be true!

author: FrankenPC
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 16, 2014, 03:21:41 pm
content: Quote from: abaxas on June 16, 2014, 11:59:52 amI'm all for that. What I'm against is the act of fraud. If someone buys a USB cable make of 99.99% pure silver with a sheath made of the finest leather for 1000$ I'd say WOW! You have money to burn! But the cable looks awesome!This is not the case. The seller is making technology claims that are quite literally impossible. This is the basic problem with fraud. It's the CLAIMS that ARE illegal. Intent to commit fraud IS ILLEGAL.

author: TMM
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2014, 05:06:23 pm
content: I like this bit:QuoteI can't think of a better cable to use with an antiquated TDA1543 non oversampling DAC that barely manages 12bits of accuracy.Quote from: dannyf on June 15, 2014, 09:47:53 pmThis is all well and good until you get into high end audio as a hobby and try to help the noobs only to get overwhelmed by people who know nothing of the engineering/technical side and speak of their subjective opinions as fact.Example - some guy was asking if it was worth bypassing the 10uF film caps in his speaker crossover with 0.1uF X2 polypropylene caps. I advised that it was a pointless exercise because of the low frequencies involved, only to get shot down by some snake-oil believing fool who pointed out that I was wrong because he had bypassed the caps in his speaker crossover and could hear a difference.You can't educate people if they get educated by the uneducated.

author: Richard Crowley
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2014, 05:18:48 pm
content: I'm sure that very special cable demonstrably improves the performance of that antiquated DAC.It probably brings it up to 24 bit!

author: rob77
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2014, 06:23:20 pm
content: Quote from: Richard Crowley on June 16, 2014, 05:18:48 pmmost of the time i agree with you, but not this time...according to the price of that cable, it must be at least 1024 bit or even more

author: mcinque
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 16, 2014, 07:46:00 pm
content: Quote from: TMM on June 16, 2014, 05:06:23 pm

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2014, 09:51:42 pm
content: -The seller is making technology claims that are quite literally impossible. -which of the sellers claims are you talking about here? and what exactly is :literally impossible:.-This is the basic problem with fraud. It's the CLAIMS that ARE illegal. -how can claims be illegal? do those illegal claims end up in jail?-Intent to commit fraud IS ILLEGAL. -if so, 99 percent of the population would literally be jailed, :.

author: mcinque
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 16, 2014, 10:02:45 pm
content: Dannyf, don't be offended, but if you had not 2653 posts I could think you're a trolling bot

author: FrankenPC
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 17, 2014, 09:04:57 pm
content: Quote from: dannyf on June 16, 2014, 09:51:42 pmProving intent is notoriously difficult since technology like the lie detector is inadmissible in court.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 17, 2014, 09:13:23 pm
content: On top of that, the "cable" guys here are infinitely smarter than your average engineering types - just look at how they set up the marketing machine here.They are anything but stupid.

author: mcinque
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 17, 2014, 09:43:00 pm
content: definitely trolling

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 17, 2014, 09:48:25 pm
content: QuotePrecisely because of that, prosecution of fraud is so difficult. The fact that the victim is misled isn't sufficient to establish a case.

author: Robomeds
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 17, 2014, 09:53:43 pm
content: As someone who really loves high end stereo systems things like this really make me sad. It's noise in the discussion. Back in the 70s I think there were larger differences between equipment so getting a good amp might be audible. Certainly speakers and room treatments mater. However, after a point it became about making things more and more esoteric rather than better at actually playing music. Look at the boxes the components come in. In the 70s most of the high end stuff came in rack mount boxes. This was likely because they were available to small manufactures and they were robust. Now we have machined from billet aluminum panels and carved from whale bone cable covers etc. My favorite jokes are the very fancy systems based around iPods. Don't get me wrong, my iPod has been my source as has a laptop. The difference is my iPod wasn't placed in a $5k milled hardwood base that was lovingly rubbed with mink oil applied with a shammy made of whale foreskin.With analog signals there was always some level of suspension of disbelief because, well we know that connections can degrade an analog signal, it was just a question of could you notice. With SPIDIF we could pretend that the fact that signal values and the DA clocking was handled by the source and thus the cable could mater. Seemed unlikely but I guess possible. With USB, error corrected, computer data you just have to say... what total BS.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 17, 2014, 10:47:41 pm
content: QuoteEven then, con took a different form. Think about all variations of tube vs. solid state, bjt vs. mosfet, amplifier feet, ... However, some factors people thought were unimportant turned out to be quite important: open loop linearity, OPS symmetry, global vs. local feedback, deep negative feedback vs. low/no feedback, TIM, CFB vs. VFB, active loading vs. resistive loading, etc.There are faults on both sides: audio, like anything else, isn't exactly 100% science, nor 100% art. The "subjectivists" (aka cable guys here) are pushing this into an all art situation; and the "objectivists" (aka measurement guys) are pushing this into an all science situation.The truth, I suspect, is somewhere in between.

author: AlfBaz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2014, 01:30:02 am
content: Quote from: dannyf on June 17, 2014, 10:47:41 pmand there, my friend, goes your last shred of credibility

author: retrolefty
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2014, 02:06:14 am
content: The problem is that audiophiles (as well as most of us) listen to music on our equipment and music is a very subjective media and does cause emotional responses from people, people are attached to the music they love, not unlike wine connoisseur tasting wine and stating their opinion. But too often they attach qualities of the music to the equipment that it is being played on.As most of us know and understand the state of the art of electronics as long been reached to be faultless as far as adding or taking anything away from the signal being applied, for all practical purposes it's just wire with gain, perfect amplification. The main variable in most hi-fi system is in the speakers, their placement and room acoustics, those are areas where tweaking to personal preference is certainly worthwhile.But when emotion and peer pressure are coupled with high disposable income you find the some pretty absurd equipment and accessories at outstanding prices. My favorite example is 1930s vintage Western Electric 300A triode tube amplifiers being resurrected for modern consumption.http://www.ebay.com/itm/like/261489129585?lpid=82But maybe the great performance is because of the transformers selected?http://www.ebay.com/itm/Triad-Western-Electric-300B-2A3-Push-Pull-PP-Power-Amplifier-Output-Transformers-/261499683851?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item3ce298840b