Real vs Imitation electronics design companies.....how to tell? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: ocset
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2019, 11:43:56 am
content: There are many companies today in UK, [Substitute your own country here if not UK] who claim to want to design and manufacture Electronics in UK……but really, they are just stooge companies whose only intention is to import the finished product from elsewhere in the world, eg China...and get well minted (i'm not knocking this...just wanting to spot it) …….one reason for the “stooge-ing” is to get UK Government grants. (which you wouldnt get if you were honest enough to say you are just an importer-only)Another reason is to help with deriving the product specification….in other words…..its often too risky to just send a spec to China and get the product designed/built because the spec may have ambiguities….and you mightn’t get what you want…therefore, the company goes through a stooge semi-design with a british in-house engineer, and checks out where the ambiguities may occur, and thus firms up the spec, ready for sending to the Chinese. The British “design” engineer employed will just be a muggins, who will end up being a “bum-on-a-seat” for his time at the company, to make them look like a bona-fide british designer/manuafacturer…….You see, when a UK [again, sub in your own country if not UK] company has designer/manufacturter status, the customers trust you more than if you are honest enough to say you are just an importer of finished products.How do you know when you are at the door of a "stooge" company?

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2019, 11:50:38 am
content: Quote from: treez on July 14, 2019, 11:43:56 amWhy are you asking?

author: ocset
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2019, 12:03:00 pm
content: if there was a choice, i would rather not take a job with a stooge, but with a real company instead.

author: MosherIV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2019, 12:53:44 pm
content: Ask them about their manufacturing capabilities and facilities.Some companies actually design in the home country but due to labour cost manufacture in another country. Actually probably most companies now, otherwise they cannot compete cost wise.

author: dmills
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2019, 02:06:58 pm
content: Generally if I have a choice I go for smaller companies doing SPECIALIST things, much more interesting and generally less chance of being outsourced, I don't think I have ever run across a company faking it in the way you describe, it is just not a thing that happens in my experience.I have no idea where you are finding those companies, in my experience generally an importer is usually quite up front about it, and we love them for it because they are in this time zone and deal with the QA and customs wankery (That is their value add). The good ones may even have a few engineers on staff, sales support, and dealing with the customer interface to whoever is making the stuff on semi custom work, that kind of thing.You tell by asking questions at interview, which is very much a two way process if you do it right.Now subassemblies from China, yea sure, but that's just because no bugger in our office wants to do the design and certification work for something like a 24V 30W power supply, I mean sure we could, but why bother when it is like £7 from Meanwell, and not that much more from TDK. We all got things to do that actually add value to £10k plus per unit products.BTW: We found something interesting, for contract PCA assembly, at the 500-1,000 units/year sort of volumes, UK is actually cost competitive with the far east.Metalwork however needed to go overseas (Poland if I recall) to get the right sort of numbers.Regards, Dan.

author: ocset
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2019, 02:24:52 pm
content: QuoteYes i believe it is now....never used to be....shows times are changing...Soon...as the Far East increases price, the UK will even be competitive at higher volumes...China is getting super rich, and just doesnt need to do stuff at rock bottom price any more......soon it will stop doing it completely i believe.....they are self sufficient, and can compete in the high quality/ high cost market now instead.Soon they wont bother doing £7, 24v,30w smps for us, and we will be left in a bad way, having taken down our entire design/manufacturing base of such things to feed off of them.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2019, 02:30:14 pm
content: What do you mean by "semi-design" though? Does that include schematics? Part selection? Risk analysis? Recommended tests?

author: ocset
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2019, 02:51:07 pm
content: i think with a stooge company, semi-design means as little as possible...as the Chinese company will basically be doing everything....the stooge company doesnt want to pay for skills in Britain...all the skilled stuff will be done in China.........the stooge will get away with as little British (insert your country) engineering as they possibly can.They would rather have no british engineering...but have to in some cases because customers like to feel they are buying from a designer/manufacturer, and not just a johnny-come-lately importer....ie a Del Trotter type.

author: dmills
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2019, 03:32:11 pm
content: Oh we are quite capable of doing those stupid little flybacks (ANY not too specialised EE is), it is after all basically datasheet cookie cutter stuff, but doing it adds so little value that I would rather pay some other bugger to deal with it. I mean seriously, the skill is in hitting a price point with acceptable reliability, and that is a volumes game as much as anything else.China, India, Vietnam, whoever has that market today, I would not be surprised to see Meanwell for example making these outside China once it makes sense to do so. We have a product using a broadly similar lump from Korea, for example, different pin spacing but basically the same thing.As I say, I know some proper chancers in this game (mainly on the grey market supply side), but I don't know anyone who looks down on a distributor as not being a legit activity with legit value adds, certainly not to the point of needing them to fake it as a design house.Some of the UK component distributors actually had legitimate design companies as more or less spinoffs. If you think back a few years component distributors used to have subassembly and even test equipment production sides (Thurlby-Thandar were Farnell industries for example, and I have a very serious bench power supply made and sold by Farnell), I am sure I have seen RS linear power supply modules (And bench power supplies) back in the day.Regards, Dan.

author: ocset
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2019, 08:22:34 pm
content: QuoteThanks but they just tell fibs...you have to get inside them, and see them bringing fully finished products through to know they are doing it....they keep it quiet.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2019, 08:40:33 pm
content: Quote from: dmills on July 14, 2019, 03:32:11 pmFarnell was a power supply and instrument company that started a sideline as a component distributor. Eventually the distribution business outgrew the equipment business.

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2019, 09:44:36 pm
content: Quote from: treez on July 14, 2019, 08:22:34 pmIf you make it to interview, they will give you a tour of their facility. An interview is a two way process, they have to sell themselves to you as much as you to them.If you either filter them on 'might be imitation' or apply and don't make it to interview then you will never know.