how to cover steel with wood, will it increase corrosion? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 21, 2019, 01:17:44 am
content: So my unfinished welding table can be used as a general table too. If I throw a piece of wood on it, does it increase corrosion of the steel significantly?It's been in a fairly damp unventilated garage for 1 year now with only minor corrosion spots in the areas where the WD-40 long term corrosion inhibitor (naphtalene based) rubbed off. Like really minor (its cold rolled ground steel).If I throw stained and polyurthane sealed plywood on top, will it increase its propensity for rusting vs it just sitting in the open? There is no heat or moisture control in the garage and its basically open, but rain water does not get in.Should I make some kind of non-wood offset for the wood to rest on top of (like glue plastic strips under the wood where it touches the metal? I have a bunch of plexiglass or something I can use (might be acrylic)... but is it necessary?Or should there just be no face contact with the steel and some kind of elevated contact surface should be built around the ground steel? (that can be painted). Like to make a air gap. Say I don't use the welding table in 12 months and leave the wood ontop.

author: Housedad
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 21, 2019, 07:30:05 am
content: Wood absorbs moisture in the air. It can be trapped between the moist wood and the cooler steel.Yes in a uncontrolled humid environment, itcanpromote the corrosion of the steel fairly rapidly. Not to say it will, but can in the right circumstances.Better to cover it in a non porous material or even better, just coat it with some oil and keep it coated between uses.You should check out the WeldingWeb.com forum. lots of info about this stuff there.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 21, 2019, 02:19:31 pm
content: Clean the table and coat it with the WD40 before putting the wood on top, and when the wood top is off wipe the underside with linseed oil, and leave to cure. That way there is a barrier between the 2, but there will always be corrosion unless you have a protective film on both surfaces, and no scratches on the metal to form an electrolytic cell with atmospheric moisture and oxygen. just having some form of oil on the surface helps, and the linseed in the wood polymerises to form a hard coat. Linseed oil also works on steel, but welding on it will smell, plus it will form an insulating layer, inhibiting good contact, unless you scrape it first with a wire brush.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 21, 2019, 02:28:42 pm
content: I ended up putting a small dehumidifier in the garage... it protects EVERYTHING, cars, tools, workbenches, etc. etc. and doesn't cost a lot to run...

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 21, 2019, 03:21:00 pm
content: Well I still planned to use WD40 LTCI on it, as bad as it smells, prior to putting the wood down.What I did not realize is that the wd40 is probobly going to end up melting the polyurathane and making a mess out of the wood, so I will need to place some kind of plastic liner under the wood (which disappoints me because I managed to make the wood look pretty cool). Only problem is that when it gets hot its gonna smell like a fucking moth ball factoryI was always impressed by this product in terms of performance, but keep in mind its not really a lubricant, you get like this gummy layer, after a year if you rub your finger on it it kinda peels off like a rubber glue (i.e. used for bacon packages)https://www.wd40specialist.com/products/corrosion-inhibitor/For some reason I really like the WD40 specialist product range.. I keep telling myself its not just the cool marketing (seriously if you compare the marketing on the various grease products, wd40 blows everything out of the water). It looks sick. PB blaster for instance looks like some kind of high-way exit thats utterly covered with signs. Yea, you can't fish here, there is a strip club and a mall on this exit, a macdonalds, a police station and a hospital. WD40 for some reason does not assault my eyes as much.. When I see a street sign like that I get a bit of anxiety "shit the cops are gonna fucking bust you for something here, I know it... what the hell did I miss... was it 4pm on tuesday for sweeping or 6pm no loitering friday or ...." The complexity of those instructions man.. thats what you put on the front cover of a tactical nuclear bomb. It's fucking grease!!!! I think of thishttps://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/half-life/images/0/0f/Nuke_case.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20100426113013&path-prefix=en. And you still need to open a flap to read that!!vsI just wanna rip the label off the First one. CRC does a good job too though, they make me think 'real product'. But I also think 'you guys took the absolute shortest path between Chinese bulk chemicals and this can.. yea your company is middle manning like crazy'. And you also assault me with a text book every time I look at the front of your bottle.And I think the CRC cans just end up looking like complete shit if they get a bit soiled with the color scheme. The wd40 even if you get the heavy grease on the label, it looks kinda alright. The CRC looks like you dredged it out of a swamp. CRC can (I use their foam-cutting-grease) for drilling since it works real nice is the only one in my shop that I had to rip the label off of and label with a sharpie. Maybe its as simple as never using white text on a grease can.*I hear those products like PB BLASTER and LIQUID WRENCH are actually really good though. I am just saying the packaging does not resonate with me.

author: Ian.M
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 21, 2019, 04:29:55 pm
content: To minimise the smell, get some anhydrous lanolin, and use that to grease the metal table surface with only a little napthaline. Its most effective against corrosion when applied hot onto a warm surface but can also be applied thinned with solvent then the solvent allowed to evaporate. However, depending on the lanolin purity, that may simply swap one smell for another - mothballs vs unwashed sheep!

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 21, 2019, 05:44:13 pm
content: PB Blaster does well in some tests, not so well in others. I'm a big fan of "Weasel Piss", a mix of ATF and Acetone, which I use (sparingly) with good results!

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 21, 2019, 09:54:50 pm
content: Quote from: Ian.M on April 21, 2019, 04:29:55 pmdo you just buy anhydrous lanolin and heat it so napthalene will dissolve in it, do you need to powder naphtalene or anything like that? are moth balls OK or should that be reagent grade too?

author: Ian.M
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 21, 2019, 11:19:15 pm
content: I'm not sure if melted naphthalene and lanolin are readily miscible without the use of a common solvent. I'd simply give the table a light spritz all over of your favourite naphthalene containing corrosion inhibitor then paint it with melted lanolin. Use a hot air gun to keep the steel surface warm enough for the lanolin to flow out well.An alternative using a single commercial product would be to coat the table surface with Cosmolene.In both cases, if you are planning on leaving the wood in contact with the steel surface long-term, squeegeeing down heavy gauge polythene sheeting*over the steel surface while the lanolin or Cosmolene is still soft, taking care to exclude all air bubbles, would make it extremely corrosion resistant and protect the wood top from the anti-corrosion grease. It also keeps the grease soft making it easier to strip when you need a clean steel top again.* Alternatively if you have the equipment to do so, hot shrink wrap the steel top.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 21, 2019, 11:34:26 pm
content: Which cosmoline product would you recommend? I thought the creeper one might be good since its water displacinghttps://www.cosmolinedirect.comIDK if I want to buy a spray can. I figure I might as well get the good stuff then rely on LTCI?

author: Ian.M
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 21, 2019, 11:52:23 pm
content: You pay a lot for the convenience of a spray can, which makes it highly uneconomic for large surfaces. I'd go for MilSpec or Industrial brushable Cosmolene. MilSpec is better but more expensive and will be a greater PITA to remove. If you look at the claimed effective life, the Creeper one is not as long lasting and not suitable for outdoor use. OTOH it would be ideal as a first coat if you couldn't guarantee the steel surface was perfectly dry.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 22, 2019, 01:39:38 am
content: I wanna make my own spray bottles you can pressureize with whatever welding gas, but the biggest problem is that I want metal nozzles. I hate those plastic nozzles.

author: Dundarave
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 22, 2019, 01:54:47 am
content: Hobby woodworkers have similar issues with lightly-used table saws: you might consider googling solutions for rust prevention on them. I used a spray product years ago (I do not recall the name) that worked very well, when my saw was located in a higher-humidity area of the house.The wood-working rust prevention solutions are generally non-staining, etc., as they don't want to risk marking the wood in process with something that would hinder the wood from holding a finish in spots where it comes in contact with the product.

author: langwadt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 22, 2019, 01:59:32 am
content: Quote from: coppercone2 on April 22, 2019, 01:39:38 amwhy spray, so you can inhale more of it?just wipe it down with some oil

author: helius
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 22, 2019, 02:21:21 am
content: Lanolin dissolved in naphtha is commercially available as FluidFilm in spray cans and drums. It does a pretty good job preventing rust, and is also a good leather preservative. It never really dries though, so there is a soft sticky layer on the piece forever.

author: Electro Detective
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 22, 2019, 02:23:16 am
content: Spray on, then brush in the WD40, seems to last longer,and then a good 'boiling' over by the hot Sun outdoors for a few hours helps it really get in there.A second brushing in later on finishes the job,and I don't worry too much about any dust attraction in windy conditions.Recently testing brushed in cheap generic air tool oil made for impact, grinder and nailer/stapler tools that work with air compressors etcIt's cheap, clear and spreads easy, a little goes a LONG way, and so far has held up outdoors on surface rust prone parts as good as WD40Too early to tell yet the really long term winner,hoping the cheaper option winsBoth products appeal to me because they are long lasting and easy on the nose,yet not difficult to get rid of with generic cleaning and or thinner type products.EDIT: there's a cheap spray on 'no stick' cooking oil that apparently works well to reduce welding spatter (MIG?),that may be also have 'some' corrosion inhibit properties too,I've got a can or two somewhere, but haven't gone there...yet

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 22, 2019, 02:59:57 am
content: bugs might eat it.

author: Ian.M
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 22, 2019, 03:09:54 am
content: Most vegetable oils and many oils of animal origin go rancid with time and exposure to air. Their degradation products can include free acids, especially if bacterial breakdown occurs. Is spray cooking oil really such a good idea compared to products and traditional mixtures with a long history of good rust prevention performance?

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 22, 2019, 03:42:15 am
content: well is it less toxic then if molten metal hits cosmoline or naphtaline?

author: Ian.M
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 22, 2019, 04:03:24 am
content: Any burning oil or grease fumes are going to be fairly toxic. Naphthalene is a polycyclic aromatic so its partial combustion products will be pretty nasty. You'd want to wipe as much off as possible, possibly with the aid of thinners, before using the table for welding and re-coat it when you are not planning to use the table again within a week or so. If you have adequate ventilation for welding, it should take care of the residual fumes.If you are going to use an oil or grease to prevent weld spatter adhesion at least an edible one will have biodegradable residue so is somewhat less likely to cause long-term health damage (unless the smell of burning lard oil makes you bust your diet with too many big breakfast fryups!).N.B. *DO* *NOT* use any halogenated oil or grease on a welding table. The thermal decomposition products are *EXTREMELY* hazardous.

author: Electro Detective
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 22, 2019, 09:29:49 am
content: I'd rather cop a faceful of nuked veg oil plume during welding attempts,than some high temp industrial strength brew concocted in a lab with who knows what suss ingredientsFWIW: once tool oil or WD40 have conditioned the metal and sort of dried away,any heat odors produced shouldn't put you in the ground,unless your number is up anywayWear some breathing protection, or better still basic cheap respiratory gear, and the usual leather PPE as recommended by EVERYONE in the game,those welding consumables aren't there to do you favours, just join metal under extreme heat.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 22, 2019, 11:21:33 am
content: I wanna get one of those welding helmets with positive pressure from a power pack on the belt but they are expensive....on the other hand you look like something from resident evil ready for the 31st century NBC battlefieldanyone got eBay tips on how to find a bargin on one? daft punk eat your heart out

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 22, 2019, 02:24:23 pm
content: If you run a small dehumidifier in the garage, nothing in there will rust any more.It's the way to go - protect everything in there, no chemicals.

author: Ducttape
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 22, 2019, 10:12:04 pm
content: Attaching a few dozen silicone 'bumpers' like these to the wood underside might do the trick:https://www.amazon.com/Shintop-Furniture-Bumpers-Protection-Hemispherical/dp/B01DU0O00W/ref=sr_1_12?crid=3DKWLUERVV6DQ&keywords=silicone+feet+pads+adhesive&qid=1555970732&s=gateway&sprefix=silicone+feet%2Caps%2C291&sr=8-12

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 22, 2019, 11:14:58 pm
content: i want weldrod and epoxyglue to post in this thread

author: Housedad
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 23, 2019, 12:14:38 am
content: Quote from: Ian.M on April 22, 2019, 04:03:24 amYes. Phosgene gas will help you to see your God very quickly.

author: eKretz
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 23, 2019, 04:45:29 am
content: Dehumidifier. Any solid surface you put on top of the steel will cause corrosion. With temperature changes in an unconditioned (heat, A/C) space, water will condense on steel big time. Anything holding it there will cause corrosion to occur at an accelerated rate. Dehumidifier will keep that from happening.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 27, 2019, 04:45:41 pm
content: I use thick car engine oil to prevent my drill press and other metal surfaces from rusting. A thin layer applied with a piece of cloth is enough.

author: Electro Detective
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 01, 2019, 11:31:43 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on April 27, 2019, 04:45:41 pmQuite a few people mention car engine oils, but are never quite specific enough,for me to run to the local store and pick up a 4 litre doorstop on special that will last ages,to smother over rust prone gearThere's car engine oils with additives, without additives (detergent free),synthetic, semi-synthetic, non synthetic,plain tool oil for air compressor powered tools,hydraulic oils,Then there's the thickness/viscosity vibe too, SAE numbersand other BS/or not BS stuffwritten on the labels, that only clued up performance oil junkies may comprehendThe above is just the tip of the lube oils iceberg, there's also industrial and hydraulic and sealed transformer oils tooBecause I don't know any better about CHEAP, long term with no ill effect alternative oils,I just play it safe and stick with light machine oil, air tool oil, some lithium whatnot, and 'does the job for now..' WD40oh yeah, and vegetable spray for the overworked peeling barbequethat may get decommissioned and transferred to occasional welding activities dept.if a new barbie (via dirt cheap scratch n dent clearout sale) ever rocks up in the future

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 02, 2019, 01:57:50 am
content: I think I am just going to raise the table top with pins like a sine bar to minimize contact area and stick to accepted general weld table surface prep proceduresglue it to the bottom of the wood. The wood surface does not need to be super stiff, it will be good enough with like 8 points of contact. it should not scratch it and stuff so long I think so long the machine pins are of good quality it should not cause any problems with scratching?Or even just support it on ball bearings (but there is a bit of stress here unless you use alot?, it seems like it might scratch setting it down.

author: Jeroen3
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 02, 2019, 05:51:18 am
content: Maybe this video will be of interest. Woods and metals react differently.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 02, 2019, 11:52:25 pm
content: Quote from: Electro Detective on May 01, 2019, 11:31:43 pmI wish I knew what kind of oil I have because your question is a very valid one... Let me try... I got it from a relative over 25 years ago. It is very thick so I guess something-W50 / W60 or so. It may be 20W50 because the person used to have a VW Beetle.

author: Marc M.
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 10, 2019, 02:54:07 am
content: I've had a home machine shop for over 30 years, most of the years in buildings which weren't temp. controlled. Dehumidifiers are the best solution but they are expensive to run and not always practical. Regular WD-40 is garbage as any sort of oil or rust protection. About the only use I ever found for it is machining aluminum, thinning out anti-seize, and drying condensation out of points/distributors. The absolute best rust preventative I've found is LPS 3. It's thick and waxy and a bit of a PITA to clean off, but it does an excellent job of protecting metal for longer periods. The problem with any oils is that they are lighter than water so they can float to the top of the water droplets and you'll start to get rust. My brother's garage recently burned down with my machines inside (2 days before I was going to move them). I just recently brought a 3-jaw chuck home that was on my Monarch 10ee latheand exposed to the elements for well over a month after the fire (which was so hot that most anything aluminum melted). The LPS was still on it! It had hardened forming almost a shellac. While the metal underneath wasn't pristine, the amount of damage was minimized compared to untreated areas. It protected so well that even the metalized Bison sticker on the face of the chuck was still intact! It's a bit pricey (running around $80 USD/gal), but that's really nothing relative to the cost of the tools and equipment it's protecting.

author: L_Euler
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 13, 2019, 02:19:09 pm
content: Your best bet might be to put a melamine (both sides coated) top on it. You could also try a coat of Boshield before putting a top on.

author: L_Euler
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 13, 2019, 11:46:04 pm
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on April 22, 2019, 02:24:23 pmYea they work, but they draw a lot of power. I had one that only ran about 25% of the time and added $15.00 a month to my bill.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 15, 2019, 02:21:15 am
content: Quote from: L_Euler on May 13, 2019, 11:46:04 pmCompared to the cell phone bill, or the Internet cable bill - it seems relatively good value!

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 16, 2019, 04:57:34 pm
content: Can also look into using desiccant dehumidifiers like calcium chloride (e.g. Damprid) that can be "recharged" using a solar thermal oven.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 17, 2019, 01:21:45 am
content: thats an excellent idea I wanted to make a solar thermal oven for a long time that was all fancy but it always seemed like a project that will never be usedyou can afford to keep some unthinkable shit dry with that method

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 17, 2019, 02:44:33 am
content: Here's a discussion I started to see how workable that idea really is:https://ecorenovator.org/forum/showthread.php?t=2899

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 17, 2019, 11:07:41 am
content: whats wrong with all you people with all those fancy steel-rust-phobia substances? cheap oil-based paint will just do the trick i thought this thread will quickly concluded to this. any color to your or tiffany yap's heart content will do, no carcinogenic no anti oxidant no problem risk, except in california. i have few welded steel assembly here that i think will last long than myself. want to put it outdoor where rain, dew, moisture can get in? use more expensive marine grade paint and it will last long even if you bury it in mud soil. grease and oils only if you cant afford to paint it such as usually found in moving parts such as gears and hinges. i will be more concern in what wood type you are going to put on it since for welding purpose you'll need wood as rock solid and heat resilient as ceramics, cement or etc. otherwise it will burn and holes on your 1st welding job, ymmv.Quote from: NiHaoMike on May 17, 2019, 02:44:33 amhttps://www.ebay.com/itm/Electronic-Silica-Gel-Desiccant-Moisture-Absorber-Reusable-Household-Camera-new/161917808944?hash=item25b30db130:g:aJIAAOxyl5lSJI9Y

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 18, 2019, 02:03:01 am
content: you don't paint welding tables

author: AlesALF
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: May 18, 2019, 09:52:25 am
content: use wax paper between steel and wood, it's also used for storage steel parts in the wooden boxes and work very well for this purpose

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 18, 2019, 10:51:41 am
content: Quote from: coppercone2 on May 18, 2019, 02:03:01 amyes we do if we have another layer on top such as wood...https://www.danscustomweldingtables.com/

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 18, 2019, 03:23:01 pm
content: the wood just sits over the top with good fit but its basically a protector if you are going to be grinding, or you want another table to put a chop saw or something onI don't see the top being painted though?

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 18, 2019, 03:25:03 pm
content: Quote from: Mechatrommer on May 18, 2019, 10:51:41 amI wouldn't call anything covered in wood a welding table. A welding table derives work bench perhaps.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 18, 2019, 03:28:18 pm
content: its a damn table protector. Its so you don't get grinding dust on the welding table, or minimize. Or polishing compound, removed rust, etc.I can't always take those tools outside which make dust and abrasive debris

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 18, 2019, 05:28:38 pm
content: I thought it was to protect your blanchard ground precision flat welding table from getting accidental grind marks. Steel surface seems to be ideal for dust. Just wipe it off when done.Some folks use aluminum for precision flat welding tables. It doesn't handle scuffs nearly as well, but if you are using a cover, anyway... You don't have any rust problem and you probably don't need the stock to be precision ground. I have occasionally welded on a piece of 3/16" aluminum plate, before I had anything resembling a proper welding table. It worked very well and even this thin of a plate never warped. The BB's easily scraped off. You occasionally make some small "burn marks" where the work stock makes contact with the aluminum.You might want to investigate this option for more pros and cons. I have very little cumulative personal experience, yet. Just an idea I have read about and people seem to be happy with.I find the idea of a precision ground steel table you have to cover a bit cringey, personally. Steel takes a beating and it's a shame to be afraid to use it. I've seen a slat table where the slats are screw adjustable on either end for for height. Just grind them flat "enough" and adjust if/when necessary. And/or use shims. Or throw a flat plate of steel or aluminum over the top if you need to weld something small and precise. Or just grind the table flat (enough), again, every 5- 10 years.If the slats are thick enough, they probably don't warp much, if at all. From my noob POV, it seems the main way a welding table would go out of flat is through temporarily welding stuff to it then grinding off the nubs and/or from grinding off really bad BBs?

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 18, 2019, 07:46:08 pm
content: It's also a slatted table, its not one giant sheet, its slats you can arrange so you can adjust the position of a magnetic drill on top (a beefy one).The idea is the slats will rest on rails with conical machine pins to hold them into position once placed, so when viewed from the side it will be shaped like a rampart.That means wiping it down will be annoying because you need to clean a buncha grooves, and you will have 90 degree angles, so you will need to wipe corners.The cover wood I made is shaped like this |__________________| with a rim around the edge that over hangs the table, so when you wipe it down the stuff goes over the edge and falls on the floor, rather then falling on the rail. Its also fairly well sanded and waxed so it wipes down really easily with a brush and then cleans with a damp cloth and it can be refurbished periodically with automotive polishing stuff that is on hand. And its a bit wider then the table so it falls on the floor around the table so you can sweep or vacuum it easily.