Good AOI system to start with? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: JonasUK
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: February 23, 2021, 04:11:42 pm
content: Hi All,first post here. We are a small (still) PCBA company based in San Diego. We have some experience in the PCB/Assembly process, but I am pretty sure we could be lacking of UPDATED knowledge:What are the most affordable AOI systems in the market for low/medium size runs? Any recommendation? When I say LOW, I mean, 100-500 medium size PCBAs to be inspected. MEDIUM: 500-4000 PCBAs to be inspected. Every batch should be inspected within 2-3 days (4 top)Are they reliable? Are they good detecting short-circuits?We have contacted several AOI companies but they all just tell you how good their systems are and how fast we will amortize the equipment.Thanks!Jonas

author: SMTech
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2021, 05:03:53 pm
content: There are too many out there to easily say for sure exactly which ones you should look at (must be 20+ manufacturers), it only takes a manufacturer to have released one since you were last in the market, or for an appropriate model to come out from someone who isn't linked to you via a distributor who has you on their list of sales leads and you are out of date. To be honest as I said in a different recent thread, if your are looking for something new, talk to the distribution get the pricing get demos, understand what the machine can do, what you need it to do and work from there. I for instance won't be choosing any system not supported by a UK agent with UK engineers and preferably on site training.I'm on Blakell Europlacers list for instance so I have seen and had demoed the ALeader system they sell in the UK, the entry level model seems a decent price for what it can do, I haven't followed it up with any site visits or existing user opinion... yet.I think you might be most comfortable in the desktop bracket, inline tends to be much more 100k+ and the number of options is still high. The trouble is without starting the conversation, unless you've picked info up elsewhere, you literally have no clue what tier or price these things are, they don't publish pricing and people don't share it.I asked someone about their Mirtec unit when on their site last year, they seemed happy enough with the unit but they were of the opinion it was not worth it (full AOI in general) for batches under 500.Shorts is a pretty trivial fault to look for, if that is your target, such low hanging fruit can be caught with low end products based on scanners or possibly the AgnosPCB service discussed elsewhere.

author: ANTALIFE
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2021, 10:57:47 pm
content: Random thought, experiment with this to see if it's suitablehttps://www.eevblog.com/forum/eda/neural-network-powered-assembled-pcb-inspection-tool-(aoi)/msg3331110/#msg3331110

author: Mangozac
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2021, 03:56:05 am
content: We're currently doing some evaluation with this (inbetween more urgent projects)https://bitbucket.org/guenterneust/examinator/wiki/HomeEarly results are promising but it's still too early to give any useful advice. We're in the same kind of volume as OP but plan to use it in a semi-automatic process before and after the reflow oven (the board stops on an inspection conveyor, the software gives the operator a pass or fail and then the operator presses the "pass" button ton continue the board along the production line).

author: JonasUK
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: February 24, 2021, 08:54:36 am
content: Thanks for all the comments. We will give Agnospcb a try, seems interesting and the price/service cost (if it works! Beats every other option)Anyone has tried this Agnospcb neural network service before?Looks powerful, but I guess it is heavily dependable on the camera used, at least during the test stage where we are not willing to expend money on a new camera. Let's see how everything goes with a regular smartphone. At least, we can run the test not renting or buying any "infrastructure".Again, thank you for all the commentsJonas

author: SMTech
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2021, 09:58:09 am
content: Oh very dependent, with a smartphone I have issues with focus and interference from factory lighting, but with some suitable shielding and maybe a a selfie stick in a clamp & the right phone you should get the idea. Bandwidth is also a potential issue, those are potentially quite big images. The camera setup is cheap enough for a true trail IMHO, if it isn't you aren't ready for true AOI anyway, you'll spend that on travel going to evaluate units....FAI machines share some capabilties (and shortcomings) with Agnos but don't need all that bandwidth. Some may come with extra handy features like fault tracking or little printers that can spew out a report you fix to dodgy PCBs for the rework technician etc. So far Agnos doesn't do that although I'm sure it will ....

author: JonasUK
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: February 24, 2021, 01:56:04 pm
content: Quote from: Mangozac on February 24, 2021, 03:56:05 amSounds interesting!I just got the Agnospcb account credentials for the trial. I will post here what we got from this.After reading your input, I asked Agnospcb for the possibility of using their solution in the same way you are using the Examinator: before and after the re-flow oven and I have been told that their neural network is perfectly capable of that, but it has not been "officially announced". Let´s see!Thanks Mangozac

author: JonasUK
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: February 24, 2021, 02:00:17 pm
content: Quote from: SMTech on February 24, 2021, 09:58:09 amYou are 100% right.We will test tomorrow the Agnospcb solution. We just got the credentials. They told me that the internet connection speed is crucial for a fast fault detection, as the images to be processed are large, but I guess nowadays that should not represent a problem at all.Thank you

author: JonasUK
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: March 04, 2021, 10:14:14 am
content: Well...We have been using the Agnospcb servicea lotfor the last 10 days (more than 550 boards inspected). And finally... we have adopted it.We were skeptical about it, but it works very well (although not at first). It is fast and more important, reliable.We had problems taking good pictures of the PCBAs during the trial phase (we are not photographers), but between the help of the Agnospcb staff and the fact that we finally switched to using a good camera (canon m200), the change has been spectacular. They offer an "official" inspection platform, but with our "DIY installation" in the factory - the mentioned camera and good and uniform light- we are just fine. We'll see if it's enough, but for now, it's working very well.I have to point this out: theyshould not indicate thatusing a smartphone's camera during the trial stage can be an option. The difference a good camera makesis hugewhen talking about detecting faults. It is impressive how their system can work with low quality images, but a regular camera may lead to not appreciate the real capabilities of this AOI. The same applies to the EXAMINATOR software (commented below)Nevertheless, we are going to check alternatives at this point, but I think we have found what we were looking for.About the software"examinator":this is another kind of tool. We put it to work (it was not easy) taking pictures with our "top-notch" photography rig and... it is basically a pixel comparator.It's not bad, but it takes an eternity to find outexactlywhat this software indicates as an error: Many "false positives", and with our computer (i7) it takes too long to process the image of a panel.We have seen an online demo of the ALeader ALD7120 system, and it looks powerful and may suit us. Waiting for quotation. I know what an "ONLINE DEMO" means, they will show you the best possible results but, well it looks good.In short: for now Agnospcb (and its potential) is the winner for the small and fast runs we have in production. We have even tested it during the pre-oven stage, where the components are placed on top of the solder paste,and it worked!The missing / misplaced elements are a pain in the ass at this stage but all the defects were highlighted.Agnospcb support told us that that was not the intended use (but that they are working on it and a new upgrade for the service will be released soon with this capability). From my point of view... it is already working.If we find any other interesting service, I will point that out in this forum.I have attached Agnospcb service detected faults examples.Screen captures from their inspection tool software.Top square image: reference board,middle: location of the fault.Bottom: the inspected board.The thing is: minor geometrical differences are not taking into account, but the important defects are. Check the drill holes and the silk layer. They are never the same among PCBs, and of course, they are not pinpointed as faults.

author: Mangozac
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 04, 2021, 10:11:32 pm
content: JonasUK, thanks for such a thorough write-up!I think referring to Examinator as a "pixel comparator" is a little too simplistic (my understanding is that it does use fairly advanced vision techniques) but it's certainly not going to work as well or fast as neural net based system. What to you is an acceptable processing time? If our pick and place is doing 2 mins per panel it means taking 30 seconds to process the image shouldn't be a problem (unless of course the system is giving a lot of erroneous results).All the AgnosPCB results I've seen shared here on the forum have certainly been impressive. What are your thoughts on their pricing? To me it seemed just a little too high to be a "no brainer" solution when relying on a third party and internet connection. Of course, this probably related back to the complexity of the panel being checked (and thus the value proposition).

author: JonasUK
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: March 08, 2021, 02:34:25 pm
content: HiNo,thank you all for the info.Regarding the "examinator" software, don't get me wrong. It is more than a simple pixel comparator, but, as far as I know, the software compares the relative position of the SMT components, and we have been constantly getting inspection results highlighting some elements as faulty when, in reality, they are fine.Are they a bit rotated/ shifted?yes, maybe 1-2 degrees.But the solder paste is fine, and it will work as intended. Component "re-location" is a... common phenomenon in the reflow-oven process. That is the main difference we have found between the Agnospcb and this Examinator software. The neural network seems to be smart enough to know what a real fault is.Processing times:The agnospcb is needing, something between 5 and 7 seconds to process a whole panel. Faster than a regular AOI system. The Examinator...36-42 seconds? I do not have the exact times but If we are checking the integrity of 200 panels during a working day, the difference is considerable.I need to check again the Examinator times but it is, slower. I am sure that that time is heavily dependable on the computer and GPU model but that is what we have here.The agnospcb pricing:it is worth the price.A technician (many times myself) to visually inspect a panel, needs around 3 to up to 5 minutes and beperfectly focused. When "getting used to the panel" more than 6 minutes per panel for sure. And that, working with low component density panels (Otherwise, it is a nightmare to try to not get lost even using tiny stickers as reference)So, for a human, that makes 15 to 20 panels per hour==120 to 160 panels inspected by working day/technician. That cost is way over the cost of using the Agnospcb, (20-ish pounds for 200 inspections according to our payment plan) and the complete integrity check carried out inless than an hour.Well, theoretically, in the practice, a bit more, maybe 1.5 hours.The projected annual cost would be...2500-5500 pounds for up to 60.000 inspections? More than reasonable.The whole process is faster, in general, than programmingthe regular AOI system for low medium runs.Other thing is using it for very large batches...Pros:1)Fast and reliable. The service got upgraded a week ago. We noticed an improvement delimiting the faults contours and overall speed.2)We are using the service to check the PCBA just after thepick and place processtoo. Working as a charm3) The inspection software has a "batch processing" option, so we can leave the computer processing the photos taken to the PCBAs after work, and check the results early in the morning.Cons:1)Sometimes the neural network does not fully highlight the fault itself but the "disturbance" around it: e.g: two resistors touching themselves: the fault can be indicated as a "touching point", not the resistor rotated. Not bad,even so, easy to spot. This is not a real complaint, but I had to mention it. Sometimes it works differently depending on the type of defect.2)the quality of the photo will drastically determine the inspection results.Maybe we will find some other Cons down the road. I will come back and comment about

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 08, 2021, 02:38:45 pm
content: This sounds like shilling to me. Probably the third account with 0 post in everything else talking about this company.

author: JonasUK
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: March 08, 2021, 02:45:54 pm
content: Believe me: I have nothing to do with them. I have been lurking more than a year and decided to pop up asking for comments about AOI system. Check my messages. Never mentioned the neural network service myself

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 08, 2021, 02:52:04 pm
content: Quote from: JonasUK on March 08, 2021, 02:45:54 pmYou just happen to have the exact same typeface than the guy selling agnospcb, placing somewords in bold, that nobody else does on this forum. Writing 1000 word essay on the subject. Aham.

author: JonasUK
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: March 08, 2021, 02:56:40 pm
content: Quote from: NANDBlog on March 08, 2021, 02:52:04 pmOk. I will not try to change your mind

author: ThomasRR
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: June 09, 2021, 09:11:14 pm
content: Quote from: SMTech on February 24, 2021, 09:58:09 amYour review has been on the spot. This forum should be consulted often to save you money and time.Regarding the mentioned service:I have been using Agnospcb for...4 months? And what I can say after this time:1) They are continuously improving the service. To be honest, the inspection capabilities were good 4 months ago, now are impressive. Neural networks are scary.2) For what I get, I (still) think, it is a bargain. Will they keep the current prices down the road?3) The current software version provides some kind of basic inspection report and store an image of the panel/circuit inspected. Useful to consult afterwards.4) It is FAST. 3-5 seconds per inspection.I will come back soon with updated "impressions" after another months. So far, so good!

author: jordi
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2021, 08:47:43 pm
content: I was also looking for an affordable AOI and found agnospcb as well. We tried the free version and seems to be impressively good, at least finding missing and lifted components. We used them to inspect boards that come from China, and because their quality is not very good, we used a sample that we know it works well and we compare them. Then we set aside the ones with missing or lifted components, to later complain with the supplier. =)I was told by Agnospcb that they are about to release a more robust setup with better repeatability for less than $1k, most of the price is due to the Sony Alpha Camera.

author: ThomasRR
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: November 09, 2021, 12:34:49 pm
content: JordiWhat are your impressions so far of the Agnospcb AOI? After all this time, are you still using the system? If so, how often?thanks

author: Calder
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2021, 09:57:53 am
content: Go for it. We started using the service 6 months ago and since then we are using it with every batch. We are a high-mix manufacturing company and the time saved without the need to programming our Mirtec is considerable. The good: they are constantly enhancing the fault detecting capabilities and recognition speed. I can tell that the inspection results are getting clearer. Their software can even detect problems when placing components before the reflow oven, so it is like two AOI machines. The bad (for me): you require a good internet connection if you want to get your inspection done in less than 6 seconds.

author: 48X24X48X
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2021, 03:06:35 pm
content: Quote from: jordi on June 15, 2021, 08:47:43 pmWondering if the newer and cheaper mirrorless Sony ZV-E10 could be used instead of the more expensive A6400.

author: Calder
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 16, 2021, 01:36:34 pm
content: I got their inspection platform with all the ancillary elements (LED lights, ESD mat, camera -SONY Alpha-, lens, microcomputer and monitor) for less than 1950 USD. A bargain if you ask me. I guess that the price will get increased as the company gets popular.

author: voltsandjolts
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 16, 2021, 01:57:53 pm
content: @ CalderI strongly suspect you are another shill account for agnospcb.Yourfirst few postswere in your distinctive agnospcb style of puttingevery otherphrase inbold.Also, you only post in the Manufacturing & Assembly section with extremely positive views of agnospcb.@ agnospcbYour previous shill account JonasUK got banned. This type of behaviour is childish and deceptive in equal measure. It frankly makes me not want to do business with you.

author: SMTech
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 16, 2021, 03:03:34 pm
content: Quote from: voltsandjolts on November 16, 2021, 01:57:53 pmWhat we need is a trusted 3rd party to borrow the kit for a review, It's probably not Dave's wheelhouse but there must be other YouTube channels out there that produce product in house on a (quasi or better) commercial basis who could put it through its paces. Where we got to is trying it out using a phone, thinking this has its uses but really doesn't work this way and then can't justify the time/resources to buy the kit to see if its anywhere close to its potential. However at the same time we've essentially decided we need more than this delivers in terms of board size and AOI skills so we're looking at that route instead. We might revisit this again in a role purely between placement & reflow for annoying low volume boards. Interesting to note the website mentions an "offline" solution in passing, given a huge chunk of its market probably don't & cannot have the 100Mbit connections it says it wants, I think that needs pricing up front and center.

author: 48X24X48X
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 16, 2021, 03:28:25 pm
content: Quote from: Calder on November 16, 2021, 01:36:34 pm$1950 is quite a lot of money when they have a recurrent earning business model.

author: kayvee
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 16, 2021, 04:29:08 pm
content: Exactly. This shilling immediately turned me off for even trying them out

author: SMTech
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 16, 2021, 04:51:14 pm
content: Quote from: 48X24X48X on November 16, 2021, 03:28:25 pmIf it helps, Quinns, which uses "physiological perception" with alternating images to guide you through a board costs 10 times that and still has a recurrent earning business model (which is not reflected on their website that still claims free updates). That pricing is per month/year per feature rather than board but its still there and its not insignificant either if you take the whole suite. AOISystems however remains lifetime updates for free for broadly similar money to Quinns. Both those systems do a much better job of fault tracking, recording and navigating those records than what seems to be possible with Agnos. I would expect some kind of annual fee from most AOI manufacturers to stay up to date, but be able to not pay it and still remain functional. I couldn't quite determine with Quinns if that was possible and it wasn;t clear if that is because he was German an not understanding exactly what I was asking, or if he was avoiding answering my very pointed direction of questioning.

author: 48X24X48X
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 17, 2021, 04:53:44 am
content: My point is, I think they might have different customer target like smaller manufacturing outfit like one man band like me or small CM. So, at this scale, it is considered expensive, at least to me.

author: SMTech
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 17, 2021, 08:36:20 am
content: Quote from: 48X24X48X on November 17, 2021, 04:53:44 amOh I agree, I think there's some work to be done to find a cheaper camera setup that works or a DIY rig using a scanner like you find in first article inspection systems. There's loads of affordable inspection cameras on Aliexpress, most of them are for closeup work but there is probably a combo in there somewhere that has a lens that can take in a whole board.Of course a scanner is much slower, but I don't see that matters to many users, guess it depends where it is in the line and how quickly they come off whatever process is prior to your inspection.

author: jordi
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2021, 12:15:06 am
content: Hello,I'm a happy user of AgnosPCB and I have to say that many of the comments here are not exactly fair. I do own a professional AOI machine from Mirtec, and those machines cost around $90-120K brand new, depending on the accessories. So paying $2K is a joke (assuming it works correctly as advertised, right?). Well, to be fair, my AOI is in-line, so you can probably shove $15K if you get a bench version (But I think Mirtec no longer makes them).When I started using Agnos with a laptop and the Sony camera (using the Sony software), I realized the potential, however, the user experience was very bad. There is no way my operators will ever use it because they are always in a hurry. So I'm honored to say that I'm the one that has been pushing/begging Agnos to automate the process and the latest version achieves that(day and night difference). However I opted to make my own setup, also using the T-Slots, to be honest, depending on your country it might and not might be worthed, I spent like 5-6 days figuring out a good setup, and if you factor the salary of an eng. in California plus the parts, it would've been probably cheaper just to get it from them.After several months we finally received the update, now the process became fully automated. Just press one button and you are done. It is SO good, that I even stopped using my Mirtec, and yes, you will say whatever, but anyone is welcome to visit my shop here in San Diego, California, and try it (and I mean it, we like visitors). ;-)A friend of mine based in Colorado that owns the biggest web electronic shop, that makes most of the dev board in red color and starts with "S" also has one because I recommended it. He had a very bad initial experience, but after having a quick video call I figured his issue was because the camera was very high and slightly out of focus, after ironing those tiny details he was impressed that it was able to catch errors not even the Nordson AOI could.Very, very important points to consider:->Always use the same illumination (crucial).->Use a Sony Alpha Camera (we tried Canon and no).->Always place the panel at the position and height. +- few millimeters it is ok.->Use the automated system (don't do it manually, it is really not practical and yields very bad results). If there is anything I can advise to Agnos, is to ban any users from using their phones and not good quality setups. You need to keep it simple, an environment with repeatable conditions in order to offer a good user experience. Otherwise what I'm reading here will continue to happen, which leads to a loss of interest and customers (and sadly, the support of what I believe is a great innovative product).->I guess that experience has something to do here, so if you have never used a Professional AOI, then some of the fundamentals (like good illumination) are not really clear, so don't be afraid to ask.

author: Jackster
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 03, 2021, 02:45:58 am
content: We are running a batch right now and I am happy to try out the service and do a review if AgnosPCB sends me a test account.I am totally trustworthy....I accept BTC or Doge as bribes

author: Calder
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 29, 2022, 08:46:21 am
content: After all this time, did you get a chance to check the integrity of your batch with this AOI system?