Post a picture of your Fuse Box - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 07, 2022, 03:13:42 am
content: Because everyone (rightly) laughs at my home fuse box, let's start a new thread where you can post a picture of your fuse box.And because everyone asks, no my fuse box is not up to current standards ans is not how new home fuse boxes are done in Australia that I am aware of.So I'd be particually intested in seeing other more modern aussie fuse boxes.Mine is circa 1986.The box with the 4 breakers in it is a relatively modern addition from like 7 years ago I think, that "upgrade" was done when my old ELCB failed.Not the two yellow switch ones middle left are modern electronic breakers inserted into the original ceramic fuse holders. You can buy these commonly at hardware stores and plug into existing old wire fuse receptacles.The main 60A incoming switch is the back switch next to them.So I have single phase 60A. Not sure if the wiring to my house is capable of more than 60A.The old mechnical kWh meter on the right is no longer used, nor is the off-peak ripple detection receiver below it.

author: MrMobodies
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2022, 03:31:38 am
content: Well it looks very organized in the front and easily accessible to get to the back.I have seen a really old one in a shop 10 years ago that was falling apart. The fuse kept on blowing and I traced it to a spur that connected to an outside toilet in the back where that had collapsed.It said on the fusebox in Wylex 1936 and the mouldings look like they were imperfect like they were done by hand. It card a kind of cardboardy thing on the cover that covered the fuses modules.The fuse were wires that wrapped around the modules.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2022, 03:43:12 am
content: Taken after a lightning storm had damaged some of my test equipment.https://youtu.be/40TaqXOIrHo?t=214

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2022, 03:52:58 am
content: My one on the house is the same. Actually prolly worse since the meters got changed.The problem is what begins with just a meter box with a handful of ceramic fuses eventually turns into a meter box/switchboard, solar-power extravaganza.However, as soon as one bloke runs a wire from here to there without 'routing' it nicely, everyone else from then on turns it into spaghetti. And it's hard to justify fixing if it isn't broken.Putting large din boxes on hinged meter boards should be dealt with by testicle removal of the offender. With a rusty chisel.Keep an eye out for the mandatory type A circuit breakers required from 2023 for new work and upgrades.For new houses, the solution can be elegant, but often the owner/developer had just supplied the old tried and true. New rules are coming in because the old system is outdated and plastic mounting boxes aren't the answer.Meter box/ Switch box combo:https://www.brenclosures.com.au/products/pre-wired-switchboards/Space for the smart meters and service fuses. Din rail for all the cool shit. Seal around the door.edit: water and ingress seal, not fire seal.

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2022, 04:01:28 am
content: For retro fits, if you can be bothered to get the meters relocated, I've seen one where they constructed something like this from a old meter box basically only really keeping the box and the hinges. A new back-board and the bottom hinge gets moved up, I dunno, 8 inches.https://www.brenclosures.com.au/products/new-south-wales-md-series/

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 07, 2022, 05:05:18 am
content: Quote from: Ed.Kloonk on October 07, 2022, 03:52:58 amI've been warned that any new substantial alterations to the house will mandate by law a fuse box upgrade to current standard. But I thought that was already the case, was no mention of 2023.What are type A breakers?

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 07, 2022, 05:07:35 am
content: Quote from: Ed.Kloonk on October 07, 2022, 04:01:28 amI'll repost your link from another thread.Not too impressed with this guys upgrades.https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/723604258960729/

author: Whales
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2022, 05:32:56 am
content: There are two types of types that have nothing to do with each otherRCDscome in types AC, A and B. Traditionally everything has been type AC and is made using a giant toroid with turns of wire. Sadly these types fail if an appliance backfeeds DC over your mains wires -- the core saturates and becomes unable to trigger when A vs N current misbalance occurs. Types A and B are newer ones that detect this situation, but last I checked they cost a lot more. I think there is a date where they are going to make type A mandatory in new installs in Australia? EDIT: Yes Ed mentioned this above. I suspect the popularity rise of inverters & solar has made this more important.Ordinary current tripMCBscome in types B, C and D (and some other less common variants). Think of B like fastblow and D like slowblow. There are tripping curves that give more detail (most/all MCBs have multiple methods of tripping that determine different parts of the graph shape). In practice I think all sparkies skip type B and instead install type C in houses so people don't complain about their breakers tripping all of the time. I've not seen a type B in service anywhere before and I don't think Bunnings sells them last I looked, but I'm not a sparky so take it with a grain of salt.

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2022, 05:35:54 am
content: Mentioning massiverecallof Square-D (Schneider Electric USA) load centers June 16,2022 for 1.4 million units.I think it's an open neutral:https://www.se.com/us/en/work/products/local/safety-notices/2022/qo-pon-loadcenters/"Hazard: The wire binding screw within the lug body could potentially not be torqued properly to the Plug-on-Neutral bar. Over time, this unsecured electrical joint could result in losing the neutral­-connection and potentially lead to overheating at the load." "The firm has received one report of an incident of a loose wire. No injuries have been reported." Yeah right.

author: deadlylover
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2022, 05:46:12 am
content: 70s/80s (not sure) home just down south near Liverpool. Off peak hot water still runs.Yeah we use to have those old ceramic fuse holders too but paid for an upgrade when we redid the garage. The terrible rain earlier in the year fried our solar inverter so we'll need to get that fixed, rain just went sideways into the inverter and the old LCD display window disintegrated and let water in.I'm glad we paid a couple hundred bucks extra for them to install 3 phase in the garage, not that I've ever used it yet.... (maybe future air compressor or CNC machine use)

author: Whales
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2022, 06:07:44 am
content: Dave & deadlylover: your fuse boxes look positively futuristic. I mean, you even havea box.1920/1930's Californian bungalow in Sydney, no solar and only single phase:I think the upper board is screwed to the wall, not hinged. Maybe the service fuse is behind that? At least it looks like there is no asbestos (if you ignore the roof above).Lower Hager box with DIN-rail inside was added by sparkies to modernise the place some 20 or more years ago when I was very young.Wasp at the top right is to keep guard, make sure no one steals our electricity.Aww it's got babiesMeter is "properly of St George County Council". Sadly that later became Ausgrid ("bring back the PMG!"). I love these mechanical types, it'll be a super sad day when it gets replaced by a Borg-personality smart meter that has no spinny bits.From left to right:Main switchK = 40 amp supply for electric pottery kiln out back32A kitchen oven.Notprotected by the RCD, something I noted when last repairing the oven.RCD (in theory covers everything to the right of it)A single 20A breaker that supplies all of the pottery studio building out back (LOL I expected much more, but I don't think it has a sub panel ???)Various house internal breakersThe hager surface mount box's lid holds on through the hopes and wishes of one screw at the top right that doesn't do anything. Inside:(Don't blame me for any of this, I've never touched this panel beyond flipping breakers. Not my house, not a sparky)It looks like they chose to use both of the brass blocks at the top for neutrals (the one on the right is probably post-RCD), ...but then twist the earths together and just tape them? Huh? Lol. Maybe that's fine, I don't know, but I would have preferred at least some sort of connector to keep force on the copper strand mating surfaces (I believe this avoids corrosion creeping in as easily?).If you squint you can see bars spanning the bottoms of the breakers. I presume these are the actives. I'm sure the rust is there to make it marginally safer against accidental contactEDIT: Sadly no it's copperThat's it, unless you want to see some haphazard connector boxes strewn in the attic above the plaster ceiling. EDIT: Heater is gas, stove is gas, bigger kilns are LPG bottle.

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2022, 06:39:31 am
content: Sure why not... but for a twist, not the mains panel (it's a rather uninteresting NEMA breaker panel, actually), but one I made for the battery at the bench here:Just a handful of automotive fuses wired to bus bar and barrier strips, nothing fancy.Construction is aluminum corner rail and G10 fiberglass panels; and yes I did due diligence and tested the joints and they definitely needed the "sand through the wet epoxy" trick to bond to the aluminum worth a damn. Which is what I did.Tim

author: Whales
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2022, 06:43:34 am
content: Tim:what words do you use when searching for & buying the FR4 material without copper? EDIT: Ah "G10", I'll give that a go.QuoteHmm. I presume that only works if they're the same model? If you put a 30A from one company in parallel with a 30A from another company then I presume they'll have different impedances?Also I'm curious about the flathead screws. To me that signals they are some obscure unobtanium "electrical thread"I'm surprised none are missing!

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2022, 06:57:37 am
content: Quote from: Whales on October 07, 2022, 06:43:34 amMcMaster has it as "Multipurpose Flame-Retardant Garolite G-10/FR4 Sheets and Bars". Used 1/16" (1.6mm) stock. It has a glossy finish so needs a lot of sanding, annoying.I probably would've used copper clad,but decided against it, between the high currents and needing a bit more strength. And against using aluminum panel for the same reason. Don't want unfused battery going loose and blowing something up.The barrier strip is only rated 30A so I "doubled up" by adding the copper bus bar on top. Feels not terrible.QuoteFlathead screws are just because it's an old terminal strip.Fuses in parallel, like anything else in parallel, the current won't share perfectly so expect less than the total; in practice it seems pretty close anyway, like say this is good for maybe 50A, or, don't forget that fuses are quite loose anyway so it might open up at over 100A say within a minute or so. And the ratings are adequate (24V system, 600ish CCA, fuses rated to clear 32V 1kA).Tim

author: Whales
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2022, 07:07:31 am
content: Quote from: T3sl4co1l on October 07, 2022, 06:57:37 amMcMaster doesn't ship to Australia sadly. I've lost a few too many afternoons perusing their stuff. Very jelly.There are knife-making suppliers in Australia that supply G10, but it's coloured (might be conductive) and typically quite expensive. Chinese suppliers are a bit cheaper, but for some reason PCB houses end up being even cheaper again (I wonder if JLC will accept blank gerbers).

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2022, 07:56:49 am
content: https://www.detectorinspector.com.au/switchboard-upgrade-victoria/Quote

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2022, 08:06:04 am
content: Our minimalist KISS installation with RCBOs. Still a couple of ways free so we could theoretically add an EV charger, Solar PV, or heat pump (pick two!)...(P.S. ...and the old Wylex rewireable fuse one for comparison)

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2022, 08:13:02 am
content: Quote from: Whales on October 07, 2022, 06:07:44 amWe've got a monster huntsman as big as your hand that hangs out in ours. And good for him.QuoteThe exposed tab on the end is to be used as a test point?

author: nfmax
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2022, 08:17:08 am
content: Looking at these pictures of Foreign Fuses always surprises me, they often seem to be so ancient.To misquote L.P. Hartley:Quote

author: Whales
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2022, 08:25:10 am
content: Quote from: Ed.Kloonk on October 07, 2022, 08:13:02 amDoes he flip breakers for you?QuoteAh sorry, here is a better angle. On second look it turns out to be exposed copper bars anywaynot steel

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2022, 08:26:29 am
content: Quote from: Ed.Kloonk on October 07, 2022, 07:56:49 amA similar scheme happened in the UK in 2020/21. All rental properties must have an EICR (Electrical Installation Conditon Report) carried out and all safety issues rectified before they can be rented out. Needless to say, the landlords, rental agents and electricians went into meltdown as the deadline got closer!

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2022, 08:27:16 am
content: Quote from: Whales on October 07, 2022, 08:25:10 amHe scares me a lot less than that mofo of a exposed buzz rail you got there.

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2022, 08:29:44 am
content: Quote from: Gyro on October 07, 2022, 08:26:29 amYeah. No easy answer.

author: Whales
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2022, 08:31:19 am
content: Quote from: Ed.Kloonk on October 07, 2022, 08:27:16 amIt also looks like it's the cause of my wasp-spider imbalance.

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2022, 08:53:48 am
content: Quote from: Whales on October 07, 2022, 08:25:10 amYeah. Always copper.Here's one I plucked out of a box in a factory the other day. Notice the three phases and the offset because of the add-on switch next to each breaker to alert the folks in the control room. Every breaker is 3 & 1/2 din.

author: AVGresponding
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2022, 10:20:17 am
content: Quote from: Whales on October 07, 2022, 06:07:44 amHope your fire insurance is up to date, that isrough...Exposed bus bars is a big no-no, they should have a plastic cover over them, which would have been supplied with the box.Quote from: Ed.Kloonk on October 07, 2022, 08:53:48 amNot always copper these days. Quite common to have copper coated steel or aluminium bus bars in the cheaper stuff.

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2022, 10:22:26 am
content: Quote from: AVGresponding on October 07, 2022, 10:20:17 amA nightmare to figure out the effective mm2.

author: Miyuki
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2022, 10:24:45 am
content: It is without cover because I needed a "temporary" 3-phase socket (like for past two years)

author: Whales
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2022, 10:37:34 am
content: Quote from: AVGresponding on October 07, 2022, 10:20:17 amHmm. I was thinking there are some potential electrocution hazards here (surface mount box lid comes off too easily, not all of house is on RCDs) but I'm not sure about fire risks. Perhaps if a conductor gets loose in the box it has has a higher probability of the 2nd surface it touches being uninsulated? Or something else?QuoteYeah I was surprised by this too, every one I've ever seen has come with at least some plastic. Maybe they bulk ordered it separately to the boxes. I don't think it would have become frail and decayed off neatly.

author: Whales
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2022, 10:40:39 am
content: Quote from: Miyuki on October 07, 2022, 10:24:45 amThe contrast between the rough walls and the european styled breaker bodies is beautiful MiyukiHope the house is comfy. Reminds me of the wiring I saw in Greece last I was there, some places were mudbrick (apparently it survives earthquakes better than some alternatives).I can't quite tell, but there seem to be a few different colour wires screwed into the single bar at the top. Neutral and earth bonded arbitrarily there? Not just from the loose wires going to your plugs out the front, from the wall buried conduit too.

author: Miyuki
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2022, 11:04:47 am
content: Quote from: Whales on October 07, 2022, 10:40:39 amYea good old house, a combination of mudbricks and stones. It is from times when people have no idea what electricity is.Only that one big cable, that hangs from it, it is for the socket, and in the socket is connected 4 wire cable to a huge air compressor for air tools, so it uses a neutral bar for both green and blue wires as they are also connected together at another end.

author: woody
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2022, 11:15:52 am
content: And here I was, thinking I needed to clean up my fusebox.After seeing what it could have been, methinks I'm OK for now

author: Ice-Tea
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2022, 11:22:26 am
content: I redid my fusebox earlier this year. When we build the house over 10 years ago I took the box from the scrap heap, together with a few of the breakers. It was actually "good enough" but earlier this year I had to add a bunch of stuff and decided to clean up while I was at it.Before:After:I actually have secundary boxes in the attic and garden house.

author: AVGresponding
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2022, 12:04:05 pm
content: Quote from: Ed.Kloonk on October 07, 2022, 10:22:26 amNot really an issue for the installer, you go to the rating of the main isolation switch. It's more an issue for the manufacturer, hopefully one they take seriously!Quote from: Whales on October 07, 2022, 10:37:34 amYep, there's that, though quite often the argument goes along the lines of "if you don't know what you're doing, you shouldn't be messing around with that stuff".From my pov, the fire risk comes from the increased oxidation causing bad contacts, which is more likely from having no backplate and no bus bar covers, though I guess humidity and rain might be less of an issue in many parts of Australia when compared to the UK?The foxing on the labels does imply some level of damp exposure though.

author: Circlotron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2022, 12:45:06 pm
content: Occasionally you see pics like the following. Will be interesting to see if someone from a country that doesn't appear to have standards and regulations posts what their fuse box looks like.

author: capt bullshot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2022, 12:58:03 pm
content: This is outdoor:I'm not supposed to open that, except for emergency access. Anyway, there's nothing inside but three NH-Fuses.Basically it looks inside similar to this:This is indoor:Two meters (one for the solar panels, the other one for import / export metering), a bunch of breakers and some other stuff. There's two more boxes like this (without the meters, just breakers) in the house, for local distribution purpose.Note the three phase breaker bottom left, this is a special delayed one. All the breakers and the outside fuse box build a cascade of breakers/fuses that one the weakest will break in case of a fault. One can turn off all power to that panel using the bottom left breaker, handy if the meters need to be replaced or one wants to do some work at the breakers.This is a rather modern one, one can find really ugly looking ones, especially with no breaker/fuse to de-energize the panel. One doesn't have to upgrade the panel to the latest standards as long as there aren't significant rebuilds done - so the old ones tend to exist for long time.(excuse the rotated image, but I can't be bothered fighting EXIF)

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2022, 03:30:10 pm
content: Quote from: Gyro on October 07, 2022, 08:06:04 amNeat enough. I'll overlook the Niglon rebrands, but warn that the grounding for the box is likely less than sturdy.

author: Black Phoenix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2022, 06:15:31 pm
content: Unfortunately I'm not back in my home in Portugal to show how the 3phase instalation of my Grandparent's house (from 1950s) that still today uses rewirable ceramic fuses, old breakers, Romex type Neutral/Hot wire outside of the wall (with wire nail holders nailed in the walls) with only earth plugs in the kitchen.Ahh and analogue Meter (that unfortunately is going to be changed to a smart one next month).And no, no steel wire or coat hanger wire was used in the ceramic fuse. I still have 2 reels of calibrated copper wire (don't ask for the Amps, can't remember) for rewiring those fuses in case of then burning.

author: MrMobodies
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2022, 06:50:03 pm
content: Quote from: Circlotron on October 07, 2022, 12:45:06 pmIs that India?I'd like to hear Photonicinduction's choice of fuse box.I'd think he'd be one of the best to ask.

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2022, 07:58:04 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on October 07, 2022, 03:30:10 pmYes, the box is grounded by a tapped screw that is then clamped into one of the ways of the PE bar. There is no separate ground wire to the front panel though, just the mechaical fixing screws. Not ideal.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2022, 07:59:14 pm
content: Quote from: Gyro on October 07, 2022, 07:58:04 pmThat screw makes a rather poor contact, speaking from experience.

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2022, 08:09:47 pm
content: Probably grounds (err) for a seperate lock nut and toothed washer.EDIT: Axiom are part of CED. Are Axiom a rebadge of Niglon or are Niglon rebadging Axiom (they look more like a distibutor, maybe they both are)

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2022, 08:27:26 pm
content: QuoteThats a fairly new idea,can show you plenty of older boards were once the front covers off all the shiney bits are on view,although some manufacturers tried to make it so the cover wouldn't come off unless the main switch was off.QuoteLarge 3 phase busbar chambers seem to work fine without covered bus bars,as do the bars found in large switch panels,the biggest cause of a bad connection is a miss aligns device or someone cant be arsed to get there torque screwdriver/spanner out the van

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2022, 08:51:59 pm
content: Quote from: Gyro on October 07, 2022, 08:09:47 pmNiglon's the OEM, or at least the intermediary. Been around for years, fairly recognisable - there's probably 20 names they get sold under in the UK.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2022, 09:06:55 pm
content: Just recently installed a second CU (consumer unit) to support the EVSE, outbuilding power and eventually an upgraded workshop and solar.(This was done mostly by a qualified electrician friend of mine, as is required in the UK. I did the drilling though; 1930's brick tried its best to beat my 1500W SDS into submission.)

author: AVGresponding
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2022, 09:17:09 pm
content: Quote from: themadhippy on October 07, 2022, 08:27:26 pmThose must be really old installations. The ones I work on date back to the 1970s and though you might get exposed bars from the isolator to the bus bars, the bars themselves are not exposed, though the individual tabs for the MCBs may well be. Long live the Merlin Isobar design! (now sadly subsumed into the Schneider shibboleth)I rarely use a torque screwdriver, though on something that big I would, and do, use my small torque wrench. I put it to you that installations of that size either are well enough situated that they don't get damp, or they self-Darwinise pretty damn quickly.Bah, if only I'd been on the teardown of a site we built a year or so back; we built several 3-phase boards into Sarel cabinets, out in the open, during pretty bad weather (snow and ice), for the purpose of supplying temporary cabins for a vaccine centre. I have not heard of any trouble with nuisance tripping etc. The site is gone now, in the last month, but I was at another site. Would have been interesting to see the effects, if any, of the relatively exposed conditions.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2022, 09:50:26 pm
content: Quotenope,thers even a piccy of such a beast by wylex earlier in this thread, they were still being installed upto the 90's and still plenty of them in useQuoteIn the uk " electrical equipment shall be installed in accordance with the instructions provided by the manufacturer of the equipment" so if they give a torque spec your expected to follow it.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2022, 10:11:46 pm
content: This is mine, which is fairly typical of a modern UK setup, which is usually either dual RCDs, with circuits divided between them, or RCBOs.The actual box is a 25+ year old dual RCD board, but I recently updated it to RCBOs ( the MCB on the left feeds a secondary board in the workshop, so no RCD as it has RCBOs at the far end)If it was a brand new install, it would need to be an all-metal box ( this is metal with a plastic front), and have a surge protector, which latest regs have made mandatory in most cases.

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2022, 10:36:34 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on October 07, 2022, 10:11:46 pmAs long as the output cable has suplimentary protection, ie. armoured cable, with grounded armouring - as you have done.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2022, 10:58:38 pm
content: Quote from: Gyro on October 07, 2022, 10:36:34 pmYes, it's armoured.If it did have an RCD at the feed end, it should be one with a higher trip current than at the far end to ensure selectivity, i.e. the RCD closest to the load should trip first. Not sure if this is a requirement or a recommendation, as it's mostly an inconvenience thing rather than safety

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2022, 11:32:27 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on October 07, 2022, 10:58:38 pmIt could be (should be) considered a safety issue if the lack of selectivity causes a loss of lighting with no emergency lighting provision (which domestic properties don't have).

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2022, 02:51:07 am
content: QuoteBut lighting circuits are now required to have rcd protection. welcome to one of the regs catch 22'sQuoteYou want a time delayed device at the supply end as the fault current will be seen by both devices and the fastest will win .

author: jonovid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2022, 03:07:46 am
content: Quote from: Circlotron on October 07, 2022, 12:45:06 pmlooks like some Asian cable TV providers may provide free phantom mains power in a heavy rainfall

author: AVGresponding
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2022, 07:52:47 am
content: Quote from: themadhippy on October 07, 2022, 09:50:26 pmYes, I know. In practice, it often doesn't happen. Even when torque drivers are used, in my experience they don't get calibrated every year anyway.

author: TopLoser
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 08, 2022, 08:36:52 am
content: 3 floors, 450m2, 20+ rooms served by this. On the list of things to sort out…

author: AVGresponding
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2022, 09:07:59 am
content: Quote from: TopLoser on October 08, 2022, 08:36:52 am

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2022, 10:18:44 am
content: Quote from: TopLoser on October 08, 2022, 08:36:52 amOh, that's pretty! Those are the old French ceramic screw-in fuses on that panel aren't they?I would put that as number 1 on your list, otherwise any other work on your 3 floors may be redundant.Edit: Oh it's you Toploser, I vaguely remember you posting that you were moving to France. You obviously bought something with character!

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2022, 12:43:42 pm
content: Quote from: themadhippy on October 08, 2022, 02:51:07 amI don't see the catch - it's been practical to use RCBOs or at a bare minimum a carefully populated dual RCD board for decades.

author: MLXXXp
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2022, 06:53:51 pm
content: This is the breaker panel in the basement of my single-detached house in Toronto, Canada. Installed in 1988 but this panel model is still available and typical of modern installations. Each breaker just snaps in place and is held securely by the panel cover. The hot wires are screwed to the breakers and the neutrals and grounds are screwed to the panel (except for GFCI breakers, where the circuit neutral goes to the breaker, with a separate "pigtail" neutral lead from the breaker to the panel).I recently added the 240V 40A circuit with a GFCI breaker at top right, for EV charging. The thin red and black wires twisted together, running down the right side and along the bottom (which are likely not to code), are tapped off of this new circuit and are intended for a voltage monitor, along with a clamp-on current transformer to monitor the current.The rectangular silver thing on the outside right side is a 10VAC doorbell transformer.The yogurt cup at the bottom is not permanent. It's holding the screws for the front coverThe sticker behind it is the one on the cover in the next photo.

author: Circlotron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2022, 10:18:10 pm
content: When our place was built in late 1994 the standard offering was 240V 80A single phase. I asked how much extra for three phase? $200. Go for it! 3x60A fitted down the same underground pvc conduit so that’s what I got. Was doing a bit of work with motor control gear at the time, but never actually used all phases as intended, but hasn’t hurt having them.

author: Whales
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2022, 12:06:30 am
content: Circlotron:Just like me I see your oven is not RCD protected. Perhaps it was more than just cost, perhaps ovens were known to be nuisance trip devices?I'm surprised to see DIN rail GPOs. I assume putting a traditional GPO below the box would becheaper than a DINGPObut I guess it's also much faster (time equals money).Thankyou everyone sharing their photosI'm enjoying looking through them all.

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2022, 04:56:28 am
content: Yes, Ed.K; Extravaganza happens:Doing minor odd-job electrical fixit, I noticed that effect, a breaker box from 1974 gets modern solar, and next thing you know...needs a giant water pump to handle the heat load. Problem was, the installer just 'piggybacked' the new 240 VAC pump controller, onto existing 120 VAC legs...causing a shortage of the original (120 VAC) breaker outputs. Sorry, no picture. The solar pool pump folks should have, instead, installed a completely separate panel and plywood wall panel (2 ft. By 2 ft.).The clutter 'extravaganza' just grew from there, as there was, ever since, a 'shortage' of outlets, as accessories were added, thru the 1990's and beyond.I gazed at TWO giant heavy duty 'Y' cables, (that could handle a clothes drier), parked right there, in front of the little breaker box.Pool cover motor also with hookups right there, on top of everything else.Anyway, heck, electrician just trying to save the customer some giant expense along the way, so I've come to view it as a 'clutter issue', more than a safety thing.

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2022, 05:11:05 am
content: Quote from: Whales on October 09, 2022, 12:06:30 amThe sequence of adoption was first, 1 big RCD that cost a bomb so you just did the power points. Then they said you really should include the lights. Lights started going off leaving the whole house dark because of old fridges. Old stoves were considered quite safe so long as the earth was good and since they tended to just go bang when something was wrong anyway.As the RCDs got cheaper and the rules changed specifically WRT outlets around kitchens and bathroom sinks, you can kind of date the vintage of the work by observing the look and feel of the box.QuoteWatch out for them. They often require a earth terminal on the plug to allow plug entry into the socket. You may not be able to use a two-pin plug. And having no switch is annoying. (you can get them with switches)

author: David_AVD
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2022, 05:57:03 am
content: Here's mine at home. Built in 1996. I had it upgraded to RCBOs about 5 years ago.They are so cheap now there's no reason to stay with RCDs feeding more than one circuit.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 09, 2022, 08:41:55 am
content: I should do a tour of my lab building power room, it's pretty large and handles a multi floor commercial office building. Probably wouldn't know what I'm looking at thoughProbably wouldn't make it public, but could be a supporter video.Should also do the fuse box inside my lab, I don't think I've ever taken the panel off before to see behind.

author: AVGresponding
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2022, 08:54:01 am
content: Quote from: Whales on October 09, 2022, 12:06:30 amThey are. The insulating powder in the elements absorbs moisture over time and can have quite a low resistancewhen cold. I did once put some fail stickers on some ovens in a home economics classroom in a school we were refurbing, and their maintenance manager kicked off about it, saying they were fine, and a low resistance between line and earth is normal and the IET PAT manual mentions it. They had a big meeting about it and my line manager asked me what the measured resistance was. "Zero" I said. The head teacher then said "well, we'll just buy new ones, they were a bit old and tatty anyway".

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2022, 08:59:55 am
content: I find the inclusion of sockets inside a consumer unit to be a very clever idea, but I don't think I've ever seen it done in the UK.

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2022, 09:12:22 am
content: Quote from: tom66 on October 09, 2022, 08:59:55 amI first thought that maybe the UK socket is too big but no they do exist. I found one with the international socket. Compare it's branding to somebody else we know..

author: Lockon Stratos
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2022, 12:20:52 pm
content: Ours is boring as mud:https://www.dropbox.com/s/sry25vuyojxnzts/DSC02979.JPG?dl=0

author: IanJ
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 09, 2022, 01:42:42 pm
content: Here's mine.First one is the house, 2nd is the workshop, 3rd in shed at bottom of garden.100A incomer fuse at bottom feeds the utility company meter then from there into my meter which has a modbus interface and is connected to an Arduiino which also picks up via wifi the SolarPV inverter data before publishing to PVOutput.orgWorkshop fusebox is pretty new. Installed myself from feed from house, just had to get quali electrician to sign-off.Shed fusebox at bottom of garden via buried armoured cable (see it coming up from bottom left). This is a plastic fusebox which I believe is outlawed here in UK now.Ian.

author: dijkmane
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2022, 04:20:55 pm
content: just a regular dutch one, nothing special.230V 1 phase, 35Aleft side expansion when they did kitchen 20y ago

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2022, 08:31:54 pm
content: Quote from: David_AVD on October 09, 2022, 05:57:03 amThat's a happy fuse box!

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2022, 10:48:28 pm
content: Quote from: AVGresponding on October 08, 2022, 09:07:59 amIt makes perfect sence if to put it in the context of the user Name who posted it.

author: GabYoung92
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2022, 12:27:54 am
content: 3-year-old house, QLD Australia

author: Black Phoenix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2022, 12:40:06 am
content: Quote from: IanJ on October 09, 2022, 01:42:42 pmAny reason why is outlawed? I ask that because plastic consumer units are used in the rest of the EU without any problems. Same in China, Japan, Germany, etc.Although in most Instalations in the UK I follow its always a metal box that it's used.Because of the grounding of the armored cables?

author: Whales
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2022, 03:44:53 am
content: Maybe it's an explosion containment thing?

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2022, 04:36:19 am
content: Quote from: Whales on October 10, 2022, 03:44:53 amOne thing that has happened since the single pole RCDs showed up is the ones with rating >16 amps can get hot. And of course there's no provision for air flow, rather they get cascaded. Multiple light dimmers on the same light switch bank, this happens to. It says in the manual not to do it but the info gets chucked with rest of the packaging.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2022, 07:07:09 am
content: Quotenot outlawed,just against the current regs that are not statutory.As for why?well were british and like to be different old chap,plus plastic boards melt and burn when a loose connection in the fuse board causes it to catch fire.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2022, 09:07:07 am
content: Quote from: Black Phoenix on October 10, 2022, 12:40:06 amJust in case of an overheating conductor or loose connection, it adds fuel to the fire. Metal CU's keep any such overheating contained for longer, possibly long enough for the MCB/RCBO to trip and isolate the fault.They aren't too expensive, though presumably cost more than plastic - I got a 7-way one (excl breakers) for £30 for the recent install for the EVSE.

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2022, 09:15:00 am
content: Yes, basically fire. Too many house fires caused by loose and overheated connections that are not contained by the plastic enclosure. Metal enclosures have been mandatory for new installations since the UK 17th ed wiring regs. There are restrictions on fire exit paths through the top and rear of the enclosure, fire retardant gromets and glands, fire retardent caulk sealing etc.*Many (most?) older UK homes have the mains feed coming in under the stairs, so have the consumer unit in the same place - directly under a wooden primary escape route! There are many videos on the subject. High drain items like high kW electric showers and EV chargers only make the problem worse.Personally I think 'cage clamp' terminals are the primary culprit, particularly on the incomming supply tails into the consumer unit. Even when tightened to the correct torque, the thick 25mm2stranded tails will easly work loose under movement and thermal cycling. If people don't use the appropriate torque settins and torque screwdrivers, the problem is even worse. I think these are a definite step backwards compared to the old twin screw terminations, where the screws bear directly on the conductors and have 100% redundancy.When we had our smart meter fitted a few years back, I purchased a Wylex double pole isolator switch (cage clamp) ready to ask the installer to fit in line between the Meter and consumer unit (to allow safe future replacement / maintenance). The installer took one look at it, went out to his van and returned with a double screw terminated isolator. He said there were too many problems with the tails loosening or even falling out with the cage clamp types. With a pair of screws tightened down hard on the cable in a constrained diameter terminal, there's no way that the cable will work its way out past the depressions over time.I have similar concerns about the new-fangled 'Wiska' type maintenance free junction boxes, where the solid core wire is simply pushed under the sharp edge of a leaf spring (or lever action). Put a cable tie through the tags on the plastic box and stuff it under the floor and it becomes maintenance free. Has nobody else seen problems caused by push-in terminations inside flourescent light fittings. Maybe the metalurgy has improved, but let's see if the springs relax and start causing fires in 20-30 years time. They are effectively point contact connections.P.S.*I meant to comment on this on tom66's second CU in reply #44. That PE wire coming out of the top of the second CU really ought to have a flame retardent gromet (or at least a bit of intumescent caulk around it). The hole is too big to pass regs. Seeing some of the other installs drove it clean out of my head.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2022, 10:25:34 am
content: Quote from: Gyro on October 10, 2022, 09:15:00 amYup, it's on my list. Just forgot to order it for the day.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2022, 10:42:12 am
content: QuoteAnd yet right next to our sealed metal box the network provider can chuck in there plastic box to hold there isolator.Quoteyea but 2 screws take longer than 1 to tighten,so productivity goes down and we aint earning our lord and masters as many shekelsQuoteHad the same concern for a few years when they first came out,but having now used them for a good few years i'd rate them as more reliable than the old "landmine"style junction box,and they certainly grab the wire better than other push terminals.plus the wiska box incorporates a decentish cable grip,something the old round jb's lack

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2022, 02:03:14 pm
content: Yes, one rule for us mortals, the DNOs don't have to comply with IEE wiring regs, they have they are a law unto themselves.Quote from: themadhippy on October 10, 2022, 10:42:12 amYes, lack of any form of cable grip was a definite downside of the old JBs (but maybe a testament to how well the terminals gripped). The new ones are neater too and able to fit through holes (much harder to strip back the bare PEs and twist them together outside the box though). I guess the decades will tell.

author: AVGresponding
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2022, 04:14:46 pm
content: Quote from: Gyro on October 10, 2022, 09:15:00 amI think the reluctance to use twin direct screw terminations relates to the potential to shear through the conductor when overtightened, though I'll grant you this is less likely on something as big as tails. I've found the best way to get a good cage/rising clamp connection is to waggle the cable once the screw is tight, then retighten the screw. Do this two or three times and you should be golden; it's because the individual strands spread out to fill the width of the clamp.

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2022, 05:33:26 pm
content: Yes, that could be part of it, although modern consumer units still havesinglescrew connections of cores on the Neutral and CPC bars (ok, the Neutrals are ferruled on an RCBO system, but not on an RCD board). The bars and screws have also changed from softer brass (a bit closer to the Copper hardness), to Steel - conflicting agendas I think, cost vs consistency.Pre-forming and settling the tail strands certainly helps with clamping, but the teeth (more like rounded ridges) on the cage clamps are far too shallow, and the pressure too low, to grip the strands if they 'shuffle' due to movement and thermal effects. [Edit: You're also not supposed to have exposed copper, so the tail is expected to go from round profile to rectangular in nearly no space, leading to a slightly tapered profile, it wouldn't happen going into a round hole].

author: nfmax
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2022, 07:25:00 pm
content: Slightly off-topic, but when wiring up systems (not CU's) using e.g. DIN rail terminal blocks with cage clamps, I was taught it's best to always use ferrule crimps with stranded wire, so I do. Is this still good advice?

author: Red Squirrel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2022, 07:39:10 pm
content: Here's my 100a service (Canada) 200a is more typical here but this is an older house. I think it used to have a fuse box back in the day then it got swapped but the big cut off stayed behind. Normally the service is wired straight in, but having the separate cut off is actually nice. I eventually want to put a transfer switch to transfer to a generator or my solar system so I would put that between the cut off and the panel.Oh and don't mind my terrible spray foam job. You have seconds between sprays before your nozzle clogs so between moving step ladder around etc I was working really fast. It's a harder job than the pros make it look.Don't turn the breaker off... take it apaaart!Main water line runs right above it. Not ideal... lol.Bonus pics of solar system:"main" panel in house fed from solar system in shed. I recently ran outlets from it to a few rooms to have solar power within reach.Solar setup in shedMain shed panel fed from inverter. Powers shed lights and has feed going to house to other small panel I shown24v battery bank using golf cart batteries(Didn't realize pics would be that big)

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2022, 08:45:52 pm
content: Quote from: Gyro on October 10, 2022, 09:15:00 amPrimarily poor practices installing (not torqing, not double checking, not fixing the tails in any way except in the terminals..), but yes, those terminals aren't wonderfully suited to typical 7-strand tails. The 19 strand types are better, but really we need to get people to crimp proper bloody lugs on.

author: Gregg
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2022, 09:01:40 pm
content: Pictures of my 200 amp 230 volt breaker panel in rural USA where the meter is outside in a separate enclosure. It is a Cutler-Hammer brand with tinned copper bus bars that support bolt in breakers (the breakers are attached to the bus bars with machine screws. In 2006 I replaced a Zinsco panel from 1970 that was jammed full.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2022, 10:15:26 pm
content: QuoteLike not doubling over single smaller cables,but then again thats also a problem on most other terminals

author: DrGeoff
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2022, 11:51:01 pm
content: Internal and external boards. In Aus, not far from Dave.

author: Black Phoenix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2022, 02:36:33 am
content: Quote from: Gyro on October 10, 2022, 09:15:00 amYeah thanks everyone for the replies, I forgot that in the UK the cable entrances in the houses are always in awkward to work places, mostly inside or under cabinets and stairs.In Portugal all entrances of old houses are in main corridors with a door to the outside of the house (could be the main door house corridor or a backyard one), close to the door, with the entrance and fuse box high, close to the ceiling, then the cable coming down to the meter, from there to the main CU and then going back up to the ceiling, through it and running in the loft, coming down each room from there, normally outside of the wall.Only in the 70s/80s internal wall routing were starting to be common, with the consumer unit in the main corridor closet the door. Nowardays it is a common cabinet, at chest height (around 1.2m to 1.5m from the floor) that can or not be combined with a multimedia one for Ethernet and CATV/Satellite star network. If it is not combined then the multimedia it is an extra CU lower in height, close to the floor.Mostly are in-wall assembly in metal, but can be plastic and secondary CUs are normally outside wall plastic or metal.For heating is always piping inside the wall, hot and cold, connected to a gas heater or a electric boiler. Could also be in newer houses a electric heater with a hot water reservoir.

author: nibblebyte
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: October 11, 2022, 08:00:11 am
content: Fusebox and parts of heating solution in 1st and 2nd floor. Water is heated from heatpump.The air conditions use more power that the heating solution... (heatpump much more effective than the air conditions.)Heatpump is Panasonic, Air Condition is Toshiba.House is built 2014.

author: newbrain
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2022, 09:22:44 am
content: A flat in Stockholm, built 2007.A lot of breakers for 60 m2, Huvudbrytare is the main, three phase breaker (Huvud = head).A single three phase 30 mA RCD (JFB - Jordfelsbrytare, ground fault breaker) protects the whole apartment.Electric stove gets the full three phases, regular loads are distributed.Meters are not generally accessible (a couple of representatives in the building have the keys to the service rooms).Very clean wiring, no exposed live contacts, everything properly grounded, a spare breaker (number 12), a nice amount of room for Ethernet and cable TV distribution (the panel has a separating wall), utility sockets.Quite a nice job, I'd say.I'll post my Rome panel in some days, just for comparison.

author: MarginallyStable
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2022, 01:24:46 am
content: Interesting to see how it is outside Yankee territory. Here is my 200amp service, pretty much filled up. Once I get a pic of my network setup, I'll start a similar topic on that!!

author: Black Phoenix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2022, 03:05:49 am
content: Quote from: MarginallyStable on October 12, 2022, 01:24:46 amThis one is totally filled to the brim. Having a subpanel installed is not an option?

author: Jester
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2022, 07:54:58 am
content: Future-Proofed.......our bungalow was built 50 years ago. 400A service, 200A for the house and 200A for the garage.Fast charge cars in the future, no problem

author: Red Squirrel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2022, 12:28:47 pm
content: Woah not messing around lol. If it doesn't cost that much more and does not affect monthly bill then why not.

author: Red Squirrel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2022, 02:56:21 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on October 09, 2022, 08:41:55 amThis could make a fun Electroboom collab video.

author: MarginallyStable
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2022, 05:42:25 pm
content: Quote from: Black Phoenix on October 12, 2022, 03:05:49 amThink it will be a requirement soon

author: Black Phoenix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2022, 03:52:43 am
content: Quote from: MarginallyStable on October 12, 2022, 05:42:25 pmProbably you can even be able to migrate some circuits from the main service to the subpanel.

author: BillyD
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2022, 12:14:42 pm
content: An installation in a three bedroom house in Ireland from around 2006.

author: Black Phoenix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2022, 12:45:49 pm
content: Quote from: BillyD on October 14, 2022, 12:14:42 pmI see some copper being shown in some neutrals and PEs.Next EICR that's a note in the report, although most sparkies normally tight them up correctly and don't put anything in the report.Sorry that's my area of trade (Industrial EE), I don't want to sound as a snob.

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2022, 01:21:04 pm
content: It's pretty difficult not to show any copper on the PE bar unless you spend ages trimming the slide-on sleeving perfectly to length. As for those thick neutrals, they look pre-terminated (as supplied with the CU), there's really nothing you can do about that unless you cut off the terminations and add your own ferrules. Most CUs have exposed Neutral and PE bars anyway. With those enclosed ones, you can't judge how far past the screws the conductors are actually inserted (quite a way looking at the Neutral crimps)

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2022, 01:24:12 pm
content: QuoteA bigger breach of the regs is the bit of earth sleeving being use on the low voltage wires on the bottom of the meter,green/yellow is reserved for earth and only earth

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2022, 01:24:21 pm
content: A little copper on show is hardly a big issue - actually, it's reassuring to see the insulation isn't up under the screw..

author: Black Phoenix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2022, 01:13:09 am
content: Quote from: Gyro on October 14, 2022, 01:21:04 pmThey don't look like sleeved PE but wire already sold with the PE insulation, the same as you buy brown, black, red and blue insulated wire.Quote from: themadhippy on October 14, 2022, 01:24:12 pmGood eye. Yes way worse.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2022, 01:15:01 am
content: Quote from: Black Phoenix on October 15, 2022, 01:13:09 amNo, they're sleeved - you can tell from the way it bunches. That and you can see the bare cable in the back..

author: Black Phoenix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2022, 01:32:36 am
content: Quote from: Monkeh on October 15, 2022, 01:15:01 amOK I should had explained better, I'm talking about the 2 thick one on the top right most. The sleeved ones as you said only one you see the copper, the first one. The others are ok, nothing to say.But whatever I'm just being picky. I try not to leave that much copper being shown, normally less than 2mm from the terminal, enough to see that I'm not pitching the insulation with the terminal screw, if it's not feruded.Also I never used bare copper with PE insulation, the instalations I've done was always Pre insulated PE cable - solid or stranded. Although I know is somewhat common in the US/JPN/UK instalations.When I need to, I use the normal 3M insulation tape for identification above the insulation

author: Smokey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2022, 03:23:14 am
content: Quote from: Gregg on October 10, 2022, 09:01:40 pmThat's one neatly labeled panel!

author: AVGresponding
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2022, 06:56:56 am
content: Quote from: Smokey on October 15, 2022, 03:23:14 amThere's no excuse in this day and age of cheap label printers to not have a neatly labelled panel.That isn't one of mine, mine are slightly neater... but it gives you the general idea of how we do it. With a Brother printer, and not a Dymo one, of course...EDIT: That was halfway through the project, it has about 3/4 of the ways used now, and the apprentices that variously had their hands in labelling it didn't get all the labels straight, and layered some of them because they couldn't get the spacing right.

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2022, 08:28:30 am
content: Quote from: Black Phoenix on October 15, 2022, 01:32:36 amI think this is probaby a geographical confusion. Maybe your wiring systems in HK use conduit and single conductors. In the UK, and as far as I'm aware continental Europe we use T&E cables (Twin and Earth) these oval section cables have double insulated Line and Neutral conductors with a bare PE core all molded into the PVC outer cover. When stripped, you have insulated and colour coded L and N cores and a bare PE, which you have to slip sleeving over. It is unavoidable in consumer installations.

author: Black Phoenix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2022, 09:17:46 am
content: Quote from: Gyro on October 15, 2022, 08:28:30 amNot in Portugal, my country, since the 80s. Conduit inside the wall and singles. Same in China, Hong Kong, Macau (this last 2 new Instalations, old ones use the UK standard, so as you say, including in Hong Kong Ring circuits) and Germany from what I saw and done.Here's an example in Germany:https://youtu.be/83Mdnc7FyVYNorway:https://youtu.be/Js5ny1JcDLsIn China:https://youtu.be/oPo6MyArMQ8It's exactly the same in Portugal for newer Instalations, if the conduit is outside the wall can be singles or outer pvc jacket with inside individual singles, or if it's inside it will be singles already insulated.Even if a cable is to be crimped to the wall it will be 3 individual conductors already with their correct colour sleeve in a outer protective jacket.As I told bare earth copper that you later sleeved only saw in UK, US and Japan.

author: BillyD
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2022, 09:26:25 am
content: We may never know the exact number of fatalities caused by those 10 inches of green and yellow sleeving to date, only that the sooner we start doing EICRs in this country the sooner the slaughter can be halted.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2022, 10:42:05 am
content: QuoteIs there a practical difference?

author: AVGresponding
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2022, 12:33:46 pm
content: Quote from: dunkemhigh on October 15, 2022, 10:42:05 amYes, Brother printers don't have DRM, so you can use cheaper third party tapes.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2022, 12:36:09 pm
content: QuoteFor how much longer as theres murmurings of us following the Irish and having the earth conductor in twin + earth insulated.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2022, 01:26:27 pm
content: Quote from: themadhippy on October 15, 2022, 12:36:09 pmIf they bring back stranded tinned copper to justify the inevitable price hike I might be okay with that. But really, I don't see why they need to do it at all.

author: AVGresponding
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2022, 01:34:54 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on October 15, 2022, 01:26:27 pmSo that they can pad their wallets with another amendment?

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2022, 01:35:41 pm
content: Quote from: AVGresponding on October 15, 2022, 01:34:54 pmWhat, AFDDs used in the places least likely to need them aren't enough?

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2022, 01:49:11 pm
content: Quote from: AVGresponding on October 15, 2022, 12:33:46 pmAh! Good point, yes. Fortunately my Dymo's are too old for that stuff

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2022, 03:44:43 pm
content: Quoteno no,amendments dont cost anything and we've had 2 of them already ,so its time to let them put there hands in our pockets again for the 19th edition,much more to be made from a new regs book,on site guide, and of course the exam.

author: AVGresponding
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2022, 04:40:14 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on October 15, 2022, 01:35:41 pmMore is always more... >.>

author: Gregg
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2022, 08:35:39 pm
content: Quote from: dunkemhigh on October 15, 2022, 10:42:05 amI like to use my Brother label makers with the computer interface to make long strings of labels that reduce waste of the expensive label material. Also the program allows me to copy, paste and edit individual parts of the string of labels saving a lot of time.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2022, 09:06:41 pm
content: The Dymo does that too (well, I guess it depends on the model) but as AVGResponging notes, the Dymo is crippled with lockin-ware nowadays, and that deals it the death blow.

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2022, 01:04:44 am
content: My Dymo which was bought before we knew about the shitcanery but prolly still possesses it, works OK but the tape doesn't like to stick to cat5. Well it does for a while. Annoying when you find them all laying on the floor.

author: Black Phoenix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2022, 02:08:27 am
content: I was looking for label makers back in 2018 and wanted the Brother PT-E550.A friend's company has gone bust and he gave me a new Dyno XTL300 he had in the warehouse as a spare. I could not say no.Their cable wrap tags are very good in terms of staying on the cables but too expensive. Don't know if that model have compatible tapes other than the Dymo official ones since I left it in Portugal before moving.Currently when I have a work that needs labels I just rent one via Taobao, it includes the tapes I will use (I say what tapes I need) and return it after the work is done, while I can keep the tapes I didn't use fully (the ones I return unopen I get a refund of part the rental price).Then next time I just rent the label if the tapes I need are the ones I have and finish them. Although I want to buy this time the Brother I was looking before.

author: AVGresponding
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2022, 08:08:00 am
content: Quote from: Gregg on October 15, 2022, 08:35:39 pmI save the offcuts for making handwritten/temporary labels.

author: Red Squirrel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2022, 04:23:35 am
content: Quote from: Ed.Kloonk on October 16, 2022, 01:04:44 amI have yet to find a way to label small cables like cat5. I have a Brother and even with that one the labels always fall off after a while, it's really annoying.

author: Whales
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2022, 05:42:16 am
content: EDIT: I most post some pics laterAre you guys installing your labels along the cables (axially) or wrapping them around the cables (hanging off a bit like a flag)? I normally do the latter, it's uglier but it means the label adhesive is sticking to label adhesive, so it's much less likely to fall of.You do however have to write the same thing twice on the same label, with spaces in between, so both sides of the flag have writing. Aligning the flag isn't too hard once you have done it a few times (put the centre on the cable, align and stick the ends together, "push" the seal towards the cable, trim any slight mismatch on the ends with scissors).EDIT: An axial alternative I have seen are printing small labels on standard paper, cutting them out and using clear heatshrink to hold the to the cable. You can probably do this with existing label-making machine labels too. Doesn't help if your CAT cables are pre-terminated however

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2022, 06:04:14 am
content: Quote from: Whales on October 17, 2022, 05:42:16 amYes. I did that (the axial method, thanks for naming it). The flag method works but that was why I bought the DYMO because I had previously did that with white isulation tape and texta.QuoteYeah I only have patch leads or non-mounted ethernet jacks. But the clear heatshrink is a good idea to install and save for later for the jack to jack connections.

author: Black Phoenix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2022, 10:29:29 am
content: The ones I use are the axially ones or "cable wrap". The Dymo and Brother original ones are strong but the cartridges are too expensive for the number of tags on them.Brother -https://www.amazon.com/Brother-Laminated-Flexible-Black-White/dp/B004ZMX7Y0Dymo -https://www.amazon.com/DYMO-Laminated-Cable-Makers-1868705/dp/B0140YZCR2The OEM cartridges the glue is not that good (talking about the Brother ones, didn't test the Dymo and don't even know if they have them).

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2022, 10:58:22 am
content: Quote from: Red Squirrel on October 17, 2022, 04:23:35 amHellerman RiteOnEdit: the picture isn't too clear (probably a stock image like in a thread hereabouts). There is an opaque part of the label you write on, then the rest of it is clear. So you wrap it around the wire starting with the opaque part and the clear part protects the bit you're written on whilst still leaving it visible. It's sticky, of course. I posted a photo of some network cabling in a thread hereabouts and if you look closely there are three or four cables with these labels (they come from somewhere other than the distribution board so need separate labeling to identify them). Those cables are roughly 20 years old, and although the ink is going a bit see-through now but they are still identifiable.Also got some Dymo labels that work on the same principle. Don't know how good they are - got the labels, ran out of cables that needed labeling.

author: newbrain
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2022, 03:32:37 pm
content: Quote from: newbrain on October 11, 2022, 09:22:44 amAnd here I am.Four measly breakers for 160 m2apartment.A "differenziale" (RCD) that acts also as main breaker.The wiring is decent, considered also that before renovation both PE and the phases* were using G/Y wiresThis was wired and certified according to code by a licensed electrician.As an additional consideration: the standard contract in Italy is 3 kW (+10% overdraw), on a single 230 V phase*, so not much point in having tons of sections...*In vast areas of Rome, there's no neutral wire. Both wires are live - coming from conversions of old 110 V connections to 220 V (just connect the neutral to another phase, and overvolt the transformer by ~15%).

author: AVGresponding
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2022, 04:43:48 pm
content: Not a fuse box I know, but not completely unrelated. This popped up in discord earlier, one can only hope that it's a joke...

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2022, 04:48:50 pm
content: Quote from: newbrain on October 17, 2022, 03:32:37 pmLooks like lipstick on a pig.. at least it doesn't have wallpaper and dry wood inside it?

author: Whales
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2022, 10:05:11 pm
content: I'm kinda disappointed that they didn't use some self tapping screws to tap the line. That way you don't even need to remove the insulation (TM).I'd like to imagine that they wore thin disposable latex gloves whilst twisting those wires on (with at least one fingertip broken), but some of the small details make me suspect it was done intentionally as a joke (so probably fully disconnected for safety). Not sure if the piece of paper in the background is a shell prompt or a smiley.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2022, 11:55:06 pm
content: I think it would have to have been done turned off since there is no way to thread the cables through the box without disconnecting them. Or remove the sleeve so neatly without access to the back.

author: Red Squirrel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2022, 06:02:44 am
content: They should have at least threw in an inline fuse in there for good measure.

author: bateau020
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2022, 06:59:50 am
content: Quote from: Ed.Kloonk on October 16, 2022, 01:04:44 amIf it is compatible with D1 cartridges, try the Nylon tape (Dymo S0718050 D1 16958). Works much better on cable (when used flag style) than the standard tapes (even the "permanent") tapes. Other types of cartridges might also have that type of label.

author: newbrain
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2022, 07:21:36 am
content: Quote from: Monkeh on October 17, 2022, 04:48:50 pmHonest question: is that comment related to the Sweden panel?If so, do you see them as important flaws?I did not give much thought to the wallpaper finishing: it's -mostly- under the panel cover "lips", and far from wiring and breakers, just an aesthetic thing.As for the wood (quite a thick plank, about 2 cm): I imagine is up to code, and a convenient way to mount the breaker rail (not live as in US, just structural and connected to PE), but I am no expert.One thing I noticed: the main breaker has a locking ring to slip in a tag or lock to prevent accidents.In Sweden, anyhow, the range of things one can do to the wiring is extremely limited (more or less: just change a switch or a socket with an identical one).Yes, the Italy panel is quite minimal, but even then the electrician managed to cross wire some sockets.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2022, 12:45:05 pm
content: Quote from: newbrain on October 18, 2022, 07:21:36 amIndeed. Or the latter half, anyway - the Swedish panel is at least quite neat and tidy, the Italian one could use some, uhm.. total replacement of everything, not just some shiny breakers shoved in it.QuoteWell, we moved away from wooden backed boards and then plastic because of flammability concerns. A loose terminal in there could start a nice smoldering fire which will happily carry on inside and outside the wall.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2022, 01:12:25 pm
content: I had this thing in the house before I moved in. Now it's all ABB HAF stuff. Plus all the outlets have earth pins. Like something from this century.Still I had actual horror when I saw the one in the apartment I rented before. There was a single 63A fuse for the entire house, and a GFCI. I told the landlord that the house is unfit for living, an needs to be fixed ASAP, which they did in like a week.mod: I dont know why is this all rotated.

author: bombledmonk
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2022, 01:39:10 pm
content: Here is an in-progress picture when installing anIotawatt. 200A Siemens/ITE panel along with an off peak heat panel to the left.

author: bombledmonk
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2022, 06:04:37 pm
content: Here's one from my personal collection..... A few weeks after we moved in to a previous house, we had some dimming in the lights in a couple rooms when using the vacuum cleaner. While troubleshooting I had went through and changed some sketchy stab-in outlets thinking there might be issues there, but a few weeks later, the power in those rooms went completely out. The reality was that the problem was in the main load center. The panel was in an unconditioned attached garage where the previous owners had been venting their dryer. I turns out that a lot of really cold metal (northern MN) causes a lot of condensation, which in turn causes oxidation and corrosion to the point where the one of the breakers had done a good job at arching away the buss bar tabs over time.

author: Sbampato12
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2022, 04:08:13 pm
content: Quote from: Circlotron on October 07, 2022, 12:45:06 pmI lived in Brazil the major part of my life. Some places, I mean some "neighborhoods" (the poorer ones, principally the "favelas") you can find things like this.I can't say with certain, but from my experience when you see a "pole" like that, means that 2 or 3 cables enter the house, and there isn't even the Fuse Box. Sometimes there is only the Main one at arrival, and all the house is connected to that.Normally you would also find that in these cases the wires sections are very scary...

author: AVGresponding
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2022, 05:12:49 am
content: Here's one in a school we're building an extension for at the moment. Yes, the fuse carrier is completely missing, and yes, it is a live 3ph board.

author: Black Phoenix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2022, 06:15:59 am
content: It will be fine... Just don't stick anything inside...

author: Miyuki
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 24, 2023, 10:21:38 am
content: Let's bring back this thread. I wanted to post it a few months backHere is the actual fuse box (that box on the pole). As it is required to have actual fuses before the main circuit breaker if something goes horribly wrong.So there are NH fuses rated at about 2-3 times the circuit breaker current.

author: Whales
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 24, 2023, 12:15:37 pm
content: Polemount fuse boxes? Wow I didn't know those were a thing. I presume the underground goes to the houses?At first I thought your picture showed the box in series with the overhead lines going left to rightI guess drop-out fuses have evolved into door-slam fuses now, a much more civilised way of ending an argument.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 24, 2023, 12:47:40 pm
content: Probably makes it easier to cut customers off for non payment. In the UK they need a warrant and police access to a property to cut power off (smart meters may change this)

author: Miyuki
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 24, 2023, 03:34:56 pm
content: It is a thing here, and new installations are required to have even the meter and main breaker/switch accessible from the street.It is considered a safety feature in case of fireAnd of course, they will take meter if you are not playing.Yes, here it goes from the pole to the house with underground cables. In my case, there are two boxes for two houses.This is how it is done when the cable is in the ground.The right side is for fuses and the left one is a pace for the meter and tariff signal receiver. The main breaker is already installed here.It then goes to the house where is a distribution board.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 24, 2023, 04:04:25 pm
content: Quotethe best outdoor meter enclosure ever, good ole vietnam

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 24, 2023, 04:58:48 pm
content: QuoteWhat's to stop some random yob flicking your power off for the lolz?

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 24, 2023, 08:11:44 pm
content: Quote from: themadhippy on January 24, 2023, 04:04:25 pmAt least they have a drain hole at the bottom, as good practice dictates.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 24, 2023, 08:44:21 pm
content: Quote from: PlainName on January 24, 2023, 04:58:48 pmNormally there is a locked box, with the only entry needing either tools or a key, and a small window in the plastic to read the meter. There will also be a push rod there, specifically to allow the 80A breaker in the box to be reset, but not allowing it to be tripped.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 24, 2023, 11:27:00 pm
content: OK, just that a key in things like this tend to be the same as every other box, and once some engineer (or fire person) has passed his around they're relatively easy to come by. Sure, they put off most opportunists, but the sort of yob that would do this is the sort that would seek out a master key. Just like those that think using a DIY IR transmitter to turn off every TV in a shop is cool.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 24, 2023, 11:34:56 pm
content: Quotebut not as cool as capturing the free play code for the pubs juke box on your watch

author: Miyuki
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 25, 2023, 07:51:42 am
content: Quote from: PlainName on January 24, 2023, 04:58:48 pmThey are just for a common "key"/tool to open themBut people just don't touch themIt is against the law to have the main switch and valve for gas and water locked.(Yes we once do turn off the water in our elementary schooland it was big, with parents involved and so)But people just don't touch itProbably good oldexplanation and common sense is still presentWe are in Europe, it just works this way hereThe tool, but you can use a flathead or anything to open them

author: AlbertL
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 25, 2023, 12:33:42 pm
content: Quote from: T3sl4co1l on October 07, 2022, 06:57:37 amAnother insulating board material you might consider is GPO-3. It's widely used in US electrical switchgear and is available in a variety of thicknesses.https://www.curbellplastics.com/Research-Solutions/Materials/GPO-3-Thermoset

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 25, 2023, 05:28:06 pm
content: Available at McMaster as well; it's somewhat softer, and the long fibers are prone to getting stuck in your hands... cut carefully.Tim

author: AVGresponding
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2023, 06:09:29 pm
content: Here's the main panel board at an EPH/assessment centre we're renewing the lighting in. All the boards, including this one, are also getting changed, but it's worth noting that the burned fuseholders in this one are known to be from more than a decade ago, and have somehow passed several periodic inspections since then...Oh, I did also peek at it in IR, but forgot to snap a pic. I'll do it tomorrow. 2Y is quite warm...EDIT: As promised, the thermal image of the fuseboard...