Open Hardware LCR/ESR Impedance Meter. Please vote in pricing poll - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: unitedatoms
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2015, 07:01:07 pm
content: Hello AllI am looking for advise about pricing my Open Hardware Impedance Meter (LCR/ESR meter). What may be the acceptable price for device with following specs ? I also added my own estimated recommended prices as well, please criticize it, I will appreciate any input!Please vote in this poll ^. Thank you!The real time progress is traced here:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/oshw/oshw-lcresr-impedance-meter-diy-benchtop-kit-ua315/msg725492/#msg725492Release Date:October 2015Brief Product Description:UA315 is a reprogrammable benchtop impedance meter for frequencies up to 100-200KHz. It is Open Hardware and Open Source device designed for electronics enthusiasts, who make their own electronic lab devices.Technical Specs (preliminary design targets):Model Name: UA315 (revision Beta Aug 2015)Accuracy: 0.5% or betterResolution: 3 or more digitsImpedance range: 0.001 ohm .. 1000 MOhmFrequency range: 10Hz .. 200KHzExcitation AC voltage: 1V or lessExcitation DC voltage: 2.5VProtection from input voltage: Up to 500VPower supply port: 5V / 1A round 5.1mm DC connector with cable for USB style power supplies or any other DC power supply. (Power supply is not included with device, when sold as assembled product or kit)Dimensions: Approx 4" x 13" x 2"Technical Specs for Kit (preliminary):Model Name: UA315 as DIY Kit (revision Beta Aug 2015)All specs: Identical to assembled device, when assembling instructions being followed.Software: Preloaded Open Source software in form of Arduino SketchProgrammability: On-board 6-pin male 3V ISP port connected to AtMega2560Related Designs: Popular Open Hardware Arduino (TM) Mega R3 Board designed by Arduino in Italy.IDE Compatibility: Arduino HEX output can be uploaded with STK500 programmer (not included with device or kit, when sold) with use of Atmel Studio through ISP port.Parts count: 300+Required extra parts: External DC power supply 5V / 1A with round 5.1mm connector or USB A socket.Minimally required tools: Screwdrivers, crude soldering tools for through hole componentsRecommended extra tools: Multimeter, reference precision passive components (resistors, capacitors, inductors for independent calibrations), PbFree soldering related materials for modifications around presoldered SMT components, heatgun, shrink tubing for modding works, PC with Arduino and Atmel software and STK500 programmer compatible to AtMega2560, female-to-male header cables for STK500 connection to ISP. Dremel tool if the enclosure requires modding.Retail Price (MSRP) in USA with an assumption that %5-15 will go to a retailer:Completely assembled device: $349.00SMT only assembled as kit: $299.00SMT only assembled as kit, blank enclosure is not drilled or cut: $269.00SMT only assembled, no probes, no enclosure as kit: $229.00SMT only assembled, no probes, no enclosure, no 500V protection as kit: $219.00Empty PCBs only, with parts, no probes, no enclosure, no 500V protection as kit: $139.90Empty PCBs only, no parts, no probes, no enclosure, no 500V protection as kit: $44.90Fully assembled Arduino compatible board only: $79.00Online documentation only with all licenses and source code: $0.00Edit: added pictures:

author: edavid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2015, 07:14:41 pm
content: I don't think it will be viable unless it costs less than a DE-5000.

author: unitedatoms
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2015, 07:57:02 pm
content: Good point. Thank you. It looks like DE-5000 ($100) by IET is replaced by DE-6000 ($395) and is running out of stock. How they can make a profit with $100 is amazing.

author: edavid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2015, 08:04:15 pm
content: I was referring to the DER-EE version. It's cheap because it uses a dedicated LCR meter chip.The big display on your meter is definitely nice though.You seem to be displaying a lot of insignificant digits...

author: unitedatoms
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2015, 08:29:50 pm
content: Yes, the dedicated unnamed chip with blacked out epoxy. I just rewatched the EEVblog video with DE5000 tear down. The $100 price makes sense then.

author: edavid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2015, 08:39:06 pm
content: It is not unnamed, it is well known to be the Cyrustek ES51919/ES51920. See previous threads.http://www.cyrustek.com.tw/product-1-LCR%20Meter%20Series.htm

author: unitedatoms
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2015, 10:47:37 pm
content: Nice chipset. It seems to be specialized for handhelds. I am trying to see if it has opened specs, pinouts and distributors, but search is difficult.My product is for DIY benchtops users, who like to build with prepared enclosure, large screen, embedded Arduino, with most of parts through hole to keep it DIY worthy. I aim at the ability to change the functions of device constantly through Open Software (say, show more or less digits, charts, perhaps even analyze the 4 point networks like transformers, chart the speakers). And I hope to find niche market for it.This is first batch of 50 devices to test the market and see what should be changed in next version.

author: Fsck
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2015, 09:45:39 pm
content: Quote from: unitedatoms on August 05, 2015, 10:47:37 pmit doesn't. (we (the forum users) looked and couldn't find any)

author: unitedatoms
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2015, 03:20:46 am
content: Quote from: Fsck on August 08, 2015, 09:45:39 pmThank you for confirming the absence of open specs for Cyrustek ES51919/ES51920. (I am wording this line for future googlers like me). There should be a search engine specialized for confirming that certain information is known to be unknown.

author: Spikee
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2015, 09:58:00 am
content: Which parts make the device so expensive?Switching out the screen for some kind of wireless communication and showing the data via a web page / mobile app might save some bom costs.Also the Atmega2560 is a really expensive part, if it is possible the BOM could be reduced by using a lower end avr or moving to a 32bit equivalent. This might take it out of the arduino scene but to be honest a proper toolchain for a 32bit mcu is not more difficult than the arduino style programming. Take a look at mbed for example or some of the TI stuff.Also laser cutting for the enclosure might save a few bucks.Best of luck to you!

author: unitedatoms
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2015, 12:59:45 pm
content: Quote from: Spikee on August 09, 2015, 09:58:00 amThank you for idea of making headless version of device to reduce cost. However it may only save 20% at most. I will certainly provide an option to buy the kit without any subassemblies which people may already have.The main board is x6 more expensive than the Arduino (TM) alike board. It is not on the picture, because I did not finish it yet. 100 x 200 mm full of through hole parts, many of them precision parts, lots of supercapacitors, signal grade relays, test lead probes, enclosure. The schematics is on forum athttps://www.eevblog.com/forum/oshw/oshw-lcresr-impedance-meter-diy-benchtop-kit-ua315/For first version I decided to not reduce cost of any, even insignificant parts. Even such parts like electrolytic capacitors: they all are solid polymer, the smaller capacitors are film caps (more expensive than ceramics to avoid the microphonic interference. Imagine device standing on bench next to vibrating devices with fans), the standoffs are SMD solderable metric nuts and feet for enclosure are Hi-Fi audio grade (in style and fashion) machined aluminum. Even leadless solder is bithmuth and silver kind, few times more expensive than ordinary one. The digital board is small, but a bit expensive because it is 4 layers to reduce interference. 2 layered blank PCB is much cheaper, but I went to choose 4 layers for 1st version. And any common digital platform for this device will require redesign or hacks anyway, because I set the requirement for computer board to be extremely low noise, run on linear regulators only and be clockable from external timebase. (Sort of Lab Grade ultra low noise Arduino)Looking at the price poll, I see that I should not compete with $100 handhelds in range of 0.5%..0.1% accuracies. The better goal could be 0.05% niche, which I hope is still in an "error budget" of the device without much changes of schematics/b.o.m. Most of the effort will be just software, layout and calibration routine.So the major costs are are brought by the goal of making kit as repeatable as possible, so there will be no minor obstacles or risks when users will start assembling the kit. If I make the device 100% smt, the cost will also go down significantly, but there be no way to build it for average user with just solder pencil and screwdriver. Through hole parts cause the size of the board to turn much larger. It drives the cost up, since enclosure is larger.Another aspect is that all selected through hole parts are not higher than 13mm (though I possibly ruined approach with single connector). So there will be guaranteed space for 1 or 2 extra boards stacked on top of main board. Some users will choose to build their own adapters to front of device, say ovenised chemical reference chamber with mercury relays for their biochemistry science or may be they just have a precision resistors from a dead decade box and resistors are 1.5 inch high. Or else the whole device could be as big as typical thick handheld.

author: all_repair
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2015, 04:28:29 pm
content: Likely in 1 month time, this may appear on ebay. If there is no increment in china price, the usd should be about 60. Your need to launch yours fast. I was holding to buy a de5000 or an appleton, and this one got my wallet. So far I am quite impress by the meter.?:DDM??200K??100K??SMT????Esr?LCR?http://b.mashort.cn/S.JOFN2?sm=f4c46b

author: unitedatoms
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2015, 07:21:40 pm
content: Quote from: all_repair on August 09, 2015, 04:28:29 pmThe price is great. And the design seems to be opened. I look at the schematics and see that analog switch with 300ppm/C may cause a lot of difficulty in low impedance range (low nH and high uF). For that they possibly added I2C temperature sensor (if I recognized the part correctly) and JTAG port (I assume it is made for programming), so users could update thermal calibration data individually per build.You mentioned Appleton device. Can you please point to the model, you were considering ?

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2015, 07:36:10 pm
content: My suggestions especially in competing with the much cheaper Cyrustek based meter :1. Increase freq range say up to 500 Khz or even higher maybe ?2. Higher excitation DC voltage or/and an optional feature that gives user to use external DC source say up to 30 Volt ?3. A really good software PC based or even better Android/IOS based for scanning throughout the frequencies range and/or different excitation voltage.I guess point 3 if its well implemented, hopefully will generate much more interest.For example like this thread here ->DIY Impedance Analyzerdesigned by one of the forum member here -> Jaxbird, just look at his late posts on the scan result like this :Nice isn't it ? Especially this feature can be run on PC or even better at Android/IOS platfoms.My 2 cents.

author: unitedatoms
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2015, 08:18:59 pm
content: Thank you BravoV. The thread is very interesting. It looks more like an Impedance Analyser project. I also had the though to make kit to be an Analyser at the beginning (that is why it has large screen), and after seeing that software is always easy to add later, kept postponing it. The last straw was cost of USB metal part to mount in panel hole, those are too expensive. So I decided to just leave lots of space inside the box for future USB communication.Another though was to use 8mm round 5 pin metal connectors and fabricate usb cables to mate to box. But this is too distractive at the moment from main goal to complete the LCR/ESR only autonomous device.It will be certainly completely possible to turn my kit from Meter into Analyzer just by software change.I also limit the frequency range to 100KHz because the phase issues at higher frequencies turn way too difficult.Nothing will stop experimenters to do all the ranges they can achieve within AD5933 datasheet (I understand that 250KHz is a recommended limit). But for normal support of of MHz range, the better plaform is Red Pitaya or something like it.

author: Rasz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2015, 11:41:36 pm
content: >Noone needs an Open Hardware LCR/ESR meter when closed design devices cost lesshow aboutNoone needs a $199 meter when defactoOpen Hardware LCR/ESRmeter is$20 on ebay

author: unitedatoms
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 11, 2015, 03:16:33 am
content: Quote from: Rasz on August 10, 2015, 11:41:36 pmThank you for interesting thread.I may be worded this voting option to sound like it the only Open Hardware project. Mine is just "yet another project". I meant to contrast my project to mass manufactured off the shelf devices, which are by default all are closed designs.I do not question the need for Open Source projects to compete. There always need in yet another Open Source project. For case of $20 price point anyone can vote in crudely defined $0..$199 bin.