How Important Is Formal Education? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: olsenn
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 05, 2013, 12:01:32 am
content: I currently have a diploma in electrical engineering, which consists of the first two years of a 4-year (5-years with co-op) bachelor degree program at an accredited university in Canada. I am a hobbyist, but not a professional. My question is: essentially how much more capable is the average university (bachelor's degree) graduate than your average hobbyist? Is the extra education simply to get that piece of paper, or will it actually make you that much smarter?I can't wait to hear your opinions!

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 05, 2013, 12:14:08 am
content: The average person with a newly minted university degree has just started on the first step of a lifetime of learning. The four or five years of college education serves to prepare you for the long journey ahead.Since you completed the two years of your diploma, how much more have you learned? Have you read more books, studied more theory, built more projects, done more experiments? That's what counts, not the piece of paper.A formal education will not usually make you smarter, but it will help you make the best of what you already have. You can't improve by having formal education directed at you from the front of a class, you improve by practice and doing and putting the time in.

author: AG6QR
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 05, 2013, 12:16:47 am
content: It depends on the individual, and depends on the education.It's possible for a well-motivated individual to learn a lot of things informally, without doing the coursework. It's also possible to do the coursework without having much of the learning really sink in the way it should. But neither of those is typical.I'd say that most people learn more about electrical engineering during their last two years of the university program than during the first two years.So if you feel you're better off having completed two years than you were before you started, I would suggest you'll probably make equal or more progress by completing the final two (three with co-op) years of the program.But it really depends...And of course, IanB is correct that the University experience is only the beginning.

author: ejeffrey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 05, 2013, 12:47:31 am
content: Quote from: olsenn on September 05, 2013, 12:01:32 amThey are not really comparable. As a hobbyist you typically have to do all aspects of a project, including design, manufacturing, programming, and mechanical work. A good hobbyist has wide ranging but shallow knowledge, possibly coupled with a couple of very specific areas of extremely deep knowledge. A good EE grad will have more in depth knowledge over a range of core topic, especially in the areas of design, simulation and analysis. An EE grad is also more likely to have experience with industry standard tools that are rarely used by hobbyists such as high end CAD packages, simulink, or FPGA tools. These tools are out of reach of the average hobbyist, and even if you were going to pirate them, there isn't much hobbyist friendly documentation out there for it. At the same time, an EE grad may have very limited experience with actually building working circuits (that depends on the program). Of course, a given person may have both a degree and the hobbyist background, and when I say a "good" hobbyist or EE grad, obviously there is a whole continuum of both, so be careful about using any of my sweeping generalizations.To answer your question more briefly, yes, I think completing a degree program is worthwhile if you put the effort in to get results out. It is possible to sleep through university, hardly learning anything, in which case it isn't worthwhile.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 05, 2013, 01:00:34 am
content: A formal education also 'forces' the student to get exposed to a wider variety of electronics topics, including less sexy topics like signals and systems. For example, many hobbyists will lack experience in at least one of FPGAs, IC design, power electronics, micro-controllers, analog electronics or low power designs. An hobbyist can easily build analog amplifiers, power supplies or RF designs without ever touching a micro. An EE should have had at least a single course in each of these topics, which helps with quickly getting up to speed compared to someone who might never have heard of that field. Of course how much highly depends on his or her motivation, but the same applies to hobbyists.

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 05, 2013, 01:33:43 am
content: Quote from: alm on September 05, 2013, 01:00:34 amAs a hobbyist and for sure it will be eternal for me, I wholeheartedly agree with this.Hobbyist have the luxury to choose and apply what ever topics they love to learn and experiment, and totally ignore others, but this condition is actually the main disadvantage.Its like at primary & secondary school where you learn & practice say only the art because you love it, but never touch other subjects like math & geography at all.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 05, 2013, 10:03:40 am
content: A formal education also teaches ways on how to take on a project. Things like breaking it down in smaller (manageble) pieces by various methods are important skills. Math is also important.

author: Galenbo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 05, 2013, 08:07:06 pm
content: Quote from: olsenn on September 05, 2013, 12:01:32 amDepends on your definition of "capable" and "smarter"In any possible answer, you have to deal with a huge "averaging" error. Every student is unique.The one repairing PC's since age 14, the other one who never understood anything, but now selling 10M dollar consumeristic goods a year, owning a 50-employees company, ...Quote from: nctnico on September 05, 2013, 10:03:40 amAgree with this. I see the formaly educated ones to better "fit" in the way companies organise projects and realisations, and also capable of looking at the same thing, in multiple ways.I saw uneducated people realise fantastic technical projects, bust I'm sure most of them won't be able to report about it, work on the same thing in a multidisciplinary team, understand safety and marketing issues (or understanding is't not understandable) and so on.

author: MacAttak
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 05, 2013, 08:48:30 pm
content: If nothing else, the degree is proof that you are willing and able to take on a task and see it to completion. A number of employers will also have a degree as a prerequisite for submitting an application - without that paper you can't even get a foot in the door no matter how brilliant you are. Admitted, that is becoming less prevalent in all engineering disciplines since the 90's.There is some value in those things.(this is coming from someone who was kicked out of university in the second year and never went back)

author: edavid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 05, 2013, 10:46:33 pm
content: I think the big difference is that the average university graduate will have mastered more math than the average hobbyist. Not many hobbyists will learn Maxwell's equations, Laplace transforms, differential equations, control systems, signal processing theory, filter theory etc. etc. even at the undergrad level (unless you are talking about a hobbyist with a PhD in math, then engineering math will seem pretty easy).

author: Fsck
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 05, 2013, 10:57:52 pm
content: Quote from: edavid on September 05, 2013, 10:46:33 pmyou'd only need an undergrad in math/physical science to meet or beat the level of engineering math here. most undergrad engineers haven't done a decent about of pdes, diff geometry, topology, abstract algebra, all the tedious and boring requirements a physicist or a chemist would see (and probably mathematicians)as a hobbyist, it's usually easy to understand the how, macroscopically.but understanding why stuff works the way it does is a whole different level and requires all the tedious math. ie why an electron is behaving x way in y material

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 06, 2013, 12:16:27 am
content: Quote from: edavid on September 05, 2013, 10:46:33 pmAnd in my 20 year + career i have NEVER used maxwell , nor laplace transforms nor differential equations. We have computers for that. I've never done anything more complex than + * - / and the odd square root and power of... and i've done very complex and crazy stuff over the years.That stuff is all overrated. You do need to know what it is , you don't need to be able to execute it.Maxwell is important to know how a field behaves. The actual numerical implementation and the calculation ? leave that to computers. This is not work for us meatbags. we are too error prone.You can run the numbers all you want , if in the end that board has an EMI problem you have 2 scenarios : you run a waterfall of simulations shooting blind until you hit where it emanates from. Or, you understand Maxwell on the level of : if i pull on this parameter the field shifts that way , or if i push this way it does that. Let's see what the field looks like and where it needs to be : ok, pull here. How hard ? that's a detail left to the computer.you guess which is the least time consuming approach ?it is useless on an exam to ask a student to work out the derivative of some complex equation, nobody in his right mind in the industry has time for that. Throw it in matlab, we have a product to ship.Or , we are not going to create the equation for a cantilevered suspensions bridge and see what forces it can hold. there is software for that. it's 2013 ... we have machines, use them !

author: edavid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 06, 2013, 01:35:12 am
content: Quote from: free_electron on September 06, 2013, 12:16:27 amI was just explaining what I think is the difference. It's really up to the OP to decide if it's important or relevant to him. I didn't say anything about solving equations by hand though, that's not what I'm talking about. It's more understanding the math well enough that you know what equation to solve.For another example, compare "The Art of Electronics" to one of Dennis Feucht's books. That's the difference between the (advanced) hobbyist and the (advanced) engineer.

author: sub
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 06, 2013, 12:24:39 pm
content: Quote from: free_electron on September 06, 2013, 12:16:27 amI've needed them before; it depends what area you're working in. Sometimes the solutions are already there and you can work out the details in simulation, but sometimes you have to start from scratch. But then again I'm more into the physics/signal processing side of things so I suppose I would feel this way---one can't run CST on a microcontroller after all. For electronics proper you're probably on the mark.

author: Galenbo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 06, 2013, 12:52:51 pm
content: Quote from: free_electron on September 06, 2013, 12:16:27 amIs true also for most formal educated people.Quote from: free_electron on September 06, 2013, 12:16:27 amThese 2 sentences go always together.Otherwise this is an open door to errors, false assumtions, border preconditions etc.Quote from: free_electron on September 06, 2013, 12:16:27 amYou mix 2 time episodes here.I wouldn't call it useless for a student. Working out derivatives trains the stategy muscle. There are ways to compare it to chess.Industry: Whole different situation.

author: woodchips
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 06, 2013, 06:46:20 pm
content: What my degree taught me was two semesters of mechanical engineering which has been invaluable, stresses in beams and similar. Also the maths, an engineering degree is only a course in applied maths. I never really could cope with calculus but more basic stuff like phaser diagrams, there is a post about static converters for induction motors that refers to another web site,http://www.waterfront-woods.com/Articles/phaseconverter.htm,what do you think of it? It makes you think mathematically, do simple equations in your head to come up with a 'yes, it will work' or 'not in a thousand years'. Most people simply can't calculate simple equations, think of statistics as used in quality control.

author: Abstr7ct
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 06, 2013, 07:19:54 pm
content: I am an undergraduate EE student going through my final year. I say that it's important only for applying for a job or when going into higher education and research. I've not really learned anything useful from classes. I would say that over 90% of what I know as an EE and an Electronics hobbyist come from my own readings and practice in home. The only benefits, that I acquired from this formal education in my experience, are that:1. A program plan that guides me to which course I should take next. This makes me know to not go into a course/subject before reading and knowing its prerequisites. In other words, it takes you up in the ladder step by step.2. Student-teacher interaction and student-student interaction. This improves social life and collaboration. You meet with different teachers, some of them bright and you can take guidance from them.3. Availability of labs. However, lab equipments aren't out of the reach of hobbyists. Home labs have become a fashion.Other than that, don't ask. Just the usual homework and exam stress. Deadlines and not much time for practicing 'real' engineering hand skills. Too much EE science and very few courses that focus on practice and design. In a nutshell, you want to have an EE position? get a formal education. Otherwise, don't.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 06, 2013, 09:25:31 pm
content: Quote from: Abstr7ct on September 06, 2013, 07:19:54 pmThat's a bit sad to hear, actually. I wonder, where are you studying? Maybe your particular college and course/program is a factor.Also, if you are a still an undergraduate, are you really qualified to know whether what you have learned will be useful later on?

author: edavid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 06, 2013, 09:43:06 pm
content: Quote from: DiligentMinds.com on September 06, 2013, 09:32:05 pm99% of electronics design is boring and stupid.

author: hammy
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 06, 2013, 09:45:34 pm
content: Quote from: DiligentMinds.com on September 06, 2013, 09:32:05 pmNegative feedback: "I smell bullshit".A degree in your field of work is never ever "totally unnecessary".

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 06, 2013, 09:56:22 pm
content: Quote from: hammy on September 06, 2013, 09:45:34 pm..but in many fields. 3 years' experience can easily be worth way more than any academic qualification.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 06, 2013, 10:11:13 pm
content: Quote from: DiligentMinds.com on September 06, 2013, 09:32:05 pmThe amount of theory and practice that I know and use at this stage of my engineering career is so vastly greater than what I knew when I graduated from university that if I were to go back and do my engineering degree now it would be like a stroll in the park. If people say that what they learned at university was so advanced they will rarely use it again, then I have to wonder what kind of work they are doing? Because I think perhaps they have not encountered some of the jobs out there that could really stretch their engineering skills.But to the point, I could not have been successful in my first job (doing it, not landing it) without the engineering formation given by that degree. Just like I could not have got through that degree without starting from high school studies in mathematics, physics, chemistry and various other subjects. It's like rungs of a ladder. Everything builds on the previous step.

author: hammy
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 06, 2013, 10:15:59 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on September 06, 2013, 09:56:22 pm..but in many fields. 3 years' experience can easily be worth way more than any academic qualification.Yes, but a formal education in you work field is the foundation you need. This formal education, containing all the aspects (math, electronics and all other things you get in touch .. like the way to solve a problem) is really necessary to do good work.Sure, there are some poster children out there. Everything self taught, brilliant, smart, high IQ, always found a short cut to get what he want ... but 99% are not like this! If you are not brilliant, a self taught education is a long winding road. And sometimes an long winding road to nowhere.With a formal education you get the most in a short time. You can use this foundation of a formal education to start a good career from this point. And when you have passion for your field of work you are going to be a really good EE.If you are really smart you don't ask the question "How Important Is Formal Education?"! If you are really smart nobody ask about your education!But, lets face it: 99% are not smart enough to become a good EE without a formal education.Some of my colleagues are career changer. They do good work, if nothing unexpected happens. For the normal day to day work they are good. But when the shit hits the fan only the people with the proper formal education can fix it. They have the necessary background to fix it.Thats the difference!

author: edavid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 07, 2013, 02:02:29 am
content: Quote from: DiligentMinds.com on September 06, 2013, 11:17:48 pmVery limited thinking. If you can get into e.g. Stanford EE, you will meet lots of rich people and future rich people who will be of great help to you in starting a company.

author: qpit3a
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 07, 2013, 02:13:32 am
content: A while back I wanted to do a design for an extraction chimney and found that there is free software to do computational fluid dynamics. However I had no idea how to use the software as I had no idea how to setup a model (or even what model) as I had never studied the subject. And to get to the point of knowing about CFD relied upon such a hierarchy of stuff I have never studied - I gave up....

author: Abstr7ct
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 07, 2013, 09:37:25 am
content: Quote from: IanB on September 06, 2013, 09:25:31 pmMy engineering college isn't anywhere near the best colleges around the world, but the program is on the line with these colleges and it's accredited by ABET. As for if I know whether what I have learned will be useful later on, then yes, I know. If it's about the job market specifically, then we don't have a dedicated electronics industry nor any EE position that requires deep design and practice capabilities. As far as I know from what's going around and from having conversations with electrical engineers in the market, they barely use 10% of the knowledge they've learned in work. Most of EEs end up occupying operation, maintenance and management positions, and very few go to a handful of EE/IT companies where they would practice a slight EE design. However, I'm considering everything that I learn to be useful because my goal isn't only to have a job but to enrich my knowledge and to acquire design skills for fun, hobby and that may lead me to start a business in this area.I don't mean that the classes aren't useful in that you can't learn from the lecture that's given by a PhD teacher, but in my experience, I can learn the lecture plus more on my own by reading the book and going back to quick references, like notes, slides and such. It's my nature actually. I don't like sitting on a chair listing to a teacher explaining overlapped physical and mathematical concepts. I like to be on my own reading the material and build my own understanding. However, sometimes in some courses I would refer to the teacher for explaining some concepts that I couldn't get.From my view, this method has been proven to be working very well with me since I don't find problems with homeworks, exams and I find myself having a better understanding in a lot of subjects compared to some studiously mates. Also, many electrical engineers and hobbyists out there, who had education in top universities, seem to agree with this. For example, Jeremy Blum from Cornell university says:Quotehttp://www.jeremyblum.com/about/By the way, in my country, education is free and you're paid money!

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 07, 2013, 04:07:17 pm
content: Quote from: Abstr7ct on September 07, 2013, 09:37:25 amBut that's exactly how a university education is supposed to work! You really don't have understanding imparted to you by a lecturer, you have to figure it out for yourself. Going back over the material, and reading and re-reading the text books, and doing the tutorial exercises until you "get it" is how learning happens.What university provides you is a planned and structured environment, with resources and guidance available to help you do that effectively.

author: JohnnyGringo
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 07, 2013, 07:52:00 pm
content: Quote from: edavid on September 07, 2013, 02:02:29 amThere are several good reasons for getting a college degree:1) A degree is basically your calling card. It gets you in the door. You are more likely to be called for an interview when you have as many initials as possible after your name... there's all kinds of engineering certifications.2) The connections you make in school, are the people you get work from, get job recommendations from or end up marrying. <grin> Especially these days, who you know is more important than what you know. A "inside validation" from a current employee goes a whole lot further than a cold call. And stay the hell away from posting funny photos on facebook.3) A broad education gives you more flexibility in the work you can get. Where as, if all you have is on the job training, you tend to get pigeon-holed. I've heard this is particularly true with Engineers, in general.Not all degrees have equal value (ROI) regardless of how much money you spent getting one. All engineers are not equally talented and a formal education does not guarantee talent. If I was interviewing an applicant and when asked why they didn't get or finish their degree, and their answer was "Didn't seem like I needed it" or "wasn't important", well... after that kind of response, they'd be talking to the hand.But as several posters have pointed out (before and after this), there are many talented people out there, without a formal education. And many idiots with too many degrees. But, if I have 10 talented candidates to interview, and 9 of them have a degree (of any kind), guess who'll be the one that gets called in last. Many of the talented, with no degree, do start their own firms and are quiet successful at it.In today's business world, people don't work at the same firm for 30 years any more. More and more, it's a project-limited commitment. This is particularly true with software engineers.

author: rollatorwieltje
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 07, 2013, 08:11:43 pm
content: Having a formal education is important, it shows you're able to deal with issues and are determined to finish something you started.As for the actual content of the education, some universities are better than others. In my opinion the typical x weeks class + test is useless. You don't learn anything from that. Well, you learn how to temporarily memorize stuff.But, universities can give you opportunities that you wouldn't get at home, and you should fully use those. Participate in a robot challenge, racing team or whatever your university offers. You'll learn more in a few months than you'll ever lean trying to memorize stuff from books.My experience is that you'll find all the right people when doing such activities. Not only teachers, but also people from the business. If you have connections within a company you're trying to work for, you're basically half way in already (if you weren't known to be a d*ckhead of course, it works both ways). If you're starting your own business, your first customers will probably be people you met along the way.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 07, 2013, 08:11:43 pm
content: Quote from: DiligentMinds.com on September 07, 2013, 07:19:43 pmWell, yes, of course. But at the outset it also helps to know that you are learning the material correctly, that you have it right. Your belief that you understand something may not match up with someone else's evaluation of your understanding. That's why there are tutorials, and evaluated design projects, and examinations.Think of the number of times you meet self-taught people who say, "I know what I'm doing", but if you observe them it is obvious they are quite confused. If you don't have people to point out your mistakes you will never know to correct them.

author: ElectroIrradiator
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 07, 2013, 08:53:58 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on September 07, 2013, 08:11:43 pmI've met a pair of electronics business owners without any formal education beyond high school. It was pretty amazing to watch how their lacking math skills limited which tasks they could take on, and how they approached problem solving and design. Both of these gentlemen were good technicians and programmers, excellent even. Yet any problem involving math beyond the bare basics stumped the pair of them (their companies frequently cooperated on various projects), something which hugely limited their world view IMO.

author: hammy
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 07, 2013, 09:32:56 pm
content: Quote from: ElectroIrradiator on September 07, 2013, 08:53:58 pmYes, that's the difference! Those people are good worker, good technician and they can tell you all day long such a formal education is not necessary ... but they have a limited work capability. Period.Their problem solving strategies are sometimes really strange. Every problem is handled like a "black box". They can find a workaround with long learned "try and error" experience. But they don't solve a problem. They often find a workaround for a symptom and can not identify the source of the problem.Whatever. To tell them about the benefits of a formal education is fighting a battle you're certain to lose.

author: onlooker
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2013, 12:56:37 am
content: It feels funny to read this far. It looks like the arguments get heavily "off topic" from the original OP's question and skewed by the talking about exceptions than average.The question needs to be answered is this: for an (presumably) averagely bright young person who has a passion in electronics, is it better for him to finish the college education or find a job without finishing the education.No one has the crystal ball; One employer's hiring habit counts even less. But, statistics counts here. All the best statistics show education (with all its imperfections) counts.Education does not inherently go against experience. In fact education is of great help for gaining experience later. In my opinion, any advice of giving up college education to an young person should not really be taken seriously.

author: Hydrawerk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2013, 01:02:12 am
content: Well, formal education in electronic engineering is important.

author: marshallh
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 08, 2013, 01:08:53 am
content: Quote from: DiligentMinds.com on September 07, 2013, 11:43:20 pmI experience this on a weekly basis. It is what it is.Usually those harping on about credentials need to rely on it because it's what they've got.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2013, 01:11:15 am
content: Unfortunately, EE suffers from the association with electronics. It's a bit like confusing mechanical engineering with workshop skills, or civil engineering with building. You can read books about how to design bridges, or dams, or jet engines, but nobody will let you do it for real without a proven track record, and you won't get the proven track record without professional training.Dave has just done the first of (several?) videos on LTspice. Simple question: Do you know how to design and create such a program? Do you know how to set up all the device models, and what the necessary model parameters are, and how to find the network solution in DC, time domain and frequency domain?If you don't, and you think you'd like to, then go get an EE degree.

author: WarSim
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2013, 01:33:40 am
content: Quote from: hammy on September 06, 2013, 10:15:59 pmI wasn't going to respond because the above statement. Made me realize I have no right to comment on the other 99%. So I won't.Quote from: hammy on September 06, 2013, 10:15:59 pmNow this statement I have to respond to. If you are taking to a small company completely correct. But a lack of a piece of paper will stop employment in most large corporations and government positions these days. The stoppage is not your abilities it is the HR department and the gaggle of lawyers that need the fuzzy feeling of a ticked box. I have seen many cycles of the experience/degree preference.If you are exceptional you will have job offers even when you don't want one, with or without credentials. But to get through the HR gauntlet you will need to be championed by the CEO or an executive.My electronics learning started 42years ago. Since then I have never not had an open backup job offer. Now that I am semi retired, my electronics is now a hobby that I can do when I feel like it with no time lines.

author: WarSim
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2013, 02:00:03 am
content: Oops I didn't directly answer the question either.My answer is yes a formal education is important.It gives the hiring company the fuzzy feeling that they are justified in their selection and are protected from a bias hiring suit.More importantly makes network building easier, and access to industry tools cheeper.But if you are in a position where a degree is not possible, this will not bar you from working in the field. With dedication every scrap of information can be obtained and mastered. If you are good enough you can even take a degree holders job. When casually talking electronics with someone, he turned out to be a CEO and he offered me a job. It became very awkward when I found out the job he offered was currently filled by someone standing 5' away. No I didn't take the job I was already on a contract, and I don't break contracts. Not even for more money.

author: Rufus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2013, 03:35:10 am
content: Quote from: onlooker on September 08, 2013, 12:56:37 amThe argument is not so much about the correct answer to that question, it is more about the correct answer being a good thing. I quit university 35 odd years ago and have no regrets, it was a bit of a mistake to start it.Nowadays it wouldn't really be an option. A formal university education ain't that great and since everyone of moderate intelligence (which is all it takes) is expected to have one isn't highly valued while paradoxically becoming almost mandatory because everyone is expected to have one.So IMO it isn't a good thing. The system is pushing everyone into 3 or 4 years of not that great education while ruling out other potentially better and cheaper options.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2013, 06:27:50 am
content: Quote from: IanB link=topic=20401.msg288295#msg288295 date=Nooe, get a degree in applied mathematics and sit down with a programmer. Explain him what matrixes are and show him how to solve em. He will work out the code, you make the optimisation.Making a spice engine does not require an understanding of electronics. It is a pure math problem. Once you figure out the equasions and an efficient step to minimize ,sift and solve em : explain the steps required to a good programmer. Done

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2013, 06:45:49 am
content: Quote from: ElectroIrradiator on September 07, 2013, 08:53:58 pmI've also numerous times see the opposite. Every problem encountered is tackled as something you throw a formula at.. And ithen it is discovered the formula doesn't work. Give the problem to somebody with experience and he goes : oh, simply put 33 ohms ins eries with the gat of the mosfet and a ferrite bead over the pin. That'll solve it.Or : ah, you are using pancake inductors with filler in the gap, those leak magnetic field in jour sense node of the feedback , you need either a fully shielded can like a powdered ironcore , or move the feedback resitors further away from the coil...Here's another one :Send a signal through a relay. Try it through a relay that has its coil energized. Take the same construction relay but now with mecahnical memory. Pulse the contact closed. See what happens.The energized (dc) coil creates a magnetic field around the contact.. Any ac signal traveling through this contact perceives this static magnetic field as an impedance. (The ac signal creates an ac magnetic field that interacts with the static field, re-inducing back emf... Long story short. Energized relay coils cause signal attenuation and distrotion. We had this problem in the adsl multiplexers. Flick out the classic signal relays and replace with relays with mechanical memory (dual coil).Calculate your way out of those problems.... Good luckIn my perception the thing to remember is this:1) Do you want a formal education.? Yes, because it opens doors and gives you a good starting base.2) Is it mandatory ? No, you can get away, under cirtain circumstances, without it.3) Does that education prove anything ? Only that you met the criteria to get that paper.4) Does it help you in your job ? No, it is a lifelong learning experince. Everything you learned is the simple basics, some of it is completely outdated and obsolete, some of it is incomplete to the point of not being practically usable and parts of it are completely wrong. It only helps you get into a job. The rest is up to you. Your passion and thirst for knowledge is what will drive you forward. Not that gold ribbon on a piece of vellum in a cheap frame on the wall.

author: ElectroIrradiator
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2013, 11:31:07 am
content: Quote from: free_electron on September 08, 2013, 06:45:49 amHard to disagree with any of this, though I would like to add a few bullet points to the list, to emphasize a few things:5) Most of the time, a relevant formal education appear to be a good start for most people. The reason being that you are less likely to have any glaring holes in your basic knowledge, like not having much in the way of skills regarding applied math and experience using it as a practical tool.6) Neither students nor their future employers should expect new graduates from being well rounded in their knowledge, nor that they have much in the way of practical experience. The role of higher education is to give the students a solidfoundationfor future learning, not to create engineers or scientists with particular skill sets. A new graduate cannot be expected to work on and complete large projects without supervision and mentoring.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 08, 2013, 11:41:49 am
content: Quote from: ElectroIrradiator on September 08, 2013, 11:31:07 amThat is why, all things being equal, I'll give the job to the person who has the best experience.Oh, you don't have the experience because you are only a graduate? that's your problem son! - the last girl I interviewed didn't have any qualifications (or dropped out, or is only a tech, or didn't get the university medal, or didn't have a masters, or *insert lesser paper reason here*), but she bought her project along that showed she had the right stuff and she answered all my questions. You've just got your bit of paper like a thousand others? You lose sunshine!

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 08, 2013, 11:51:33 am
content: Quote from: onlooker on September 08, 2013, 12:56:37 amI agree, in theory. But it depends entirely on what they are giving it up for?After all, we all eventually give up on formal education at some point. Some do it at high school, others after 2 years graduate study, others 3 years, 4 years, 5 years, 6+ years, and others after their 2nd PhD.If you get an offer for something in life, you should always consider it.What if that person was working their arse off in university in order to get their dream job at *insert company or field here*, and then they got that dream offer before they finished? Should they not take it with both hands and run?

author: Galenbo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2013, 01:15:01 pm
content: Unfortunately, often this kind kind of discussion goes between "having the degree or not"Where "having some degree" can't do much harm, I think, like I don't see much disadvantages by having a Master.I would like to see more discussions like: "what other 45 hours/week occupation was a better investment than working on a master or other degree"I'm sure there are a lot.

author: WarSim
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2013, 09:26:42 pm
content: Quote from: DiligentMinds.com on September 08, 2013, 06:08:32 pmHooray, at last someone brings up this point.I grew up in a very poor broken family, I had zero options for University. I was several things considered bad, child labor (my electronics start), latch key kid, and at times homeless. Years later after high school, I was found by a Mensa member who was looking for me because the Mensa IQ testI took in senior high-school scored 184. Apparently even this was not enough to get a full scholarship so I could get the piece of paper. I had no money for Mensa dues or spiffy clothes for hobnobbing. Making connection in my situation was hard and time consuming. Gaining the knowledge was the easy part, used book stores was a goldmine of information (now the Internet). Once I made those connections and found the employers that hired me for what I could do and not a piece of paper I was employed for my entire career.Now that I am planning my early/semi retirement I have found out there are all types of engineers and all types of employers. Any statement containing the words "all", "always", "never", "nobody" and "none" are doomed to be false.In summary if you have the opportunity for a degree yes take it. If you have to mortgage your future to get the degree, then only you can equate the cost. If you can not get a degree, remember you can still work in the field, there are still employers out there that are able to recognize ability no matter where it is found.The only critical thing with or without a degree is networking. Find employers and mentors. When you get your first job, do the best job you can, when they are prosperous from what you do for him/her, their competitors will find out, then you will be in demand. This is why your networking is important, every discipline has an association of some sort, you need to be in it. School helps here because most schools offer student memberships in the associations. The two things that will harness your networking success is a lack or confidence and a big ego.I have worked in five fields and some formal education in two. If you do things right there is a chance you could leave school with no debt. There are employers out there that will pay off your loans to get you to work for them. Didn't happen for me but two others in my school did have it happen for them. Frankly they where better than me. I juggled jobs and school with honours. They had only school but they had immense dedication to their learning and it showed. In 1984/5 their final project was a system level GUI. The course requirements where much less. They showed their passion, and the employers in the association recognized it. Now a GUI is not anything special today but in 84/5 it was.

author: Galenbo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2013, 11:48:18 am
content: Quote from: DiligentMinds.com on September 08, 2013, 06:08:32 pmYou're touching a serious problem the right way, altrough I don't fully understand what this has to do with my quote.Getting a Master, here in Belgium, costs 500eur/year for inscription, maybe another 500/year for copy/books etc. If you plan to hire a room, it's +-5000 eur/year extra.You can get a Master in 4 or 5 years, so the cheapest way is 4000eur + transport+ living.This is very cheap, compared to the same thing in your country, but have a look at this:About the half of the university studies are COMPLET NONSENSE: Music, Antroplology, "social" studies, Religion, Phylosophy....I won't forbid someone to study such a HOBBY, but it costs the society plenty of money. I personally pay extra TAXES for THEIR crappy studies NOW.In your country, people who choose such non-market related studies have the same debt as you, but they can't ever pay it back, our struggle very hard.Good example for the new generation, making people think again to waste time and money in such crappy study.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2013, 02:10:31 pm
content: I wouldn't call music nonsense.On average rockstars or popstars make waaaay more money than engineers.Oh, wait.. Rockstars or popstars don't have a degree in music .... Euh ..I guess there are professions where a degree really is not required...You dont even have to sing on key, theres autotune now. And for some genres knowing to play an instrument is also not required. Just attack the guiter with a hacksaw , send it through a heavily distorted amplifier and people will throw oodles of cash at you. Just make shure to grow your hair long.

author: JohnnyGringo
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2013, 02:48:01 pm
content: What is the highest earning degree from the University of North Carolina - Chapel Hill ?Geography.- Michael Jordan.

author: Galenbo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2013, 03:04:27 pm
content: Quote from: JohnnyGringo on September 09, 2013, 02:48:01 pmWhy not, don't know much about it."highest earning" shouldn't even be considered, "earning something" or "economically relavant" is enough.

author: Galenbo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2013, 03:07:38 pm
content: Quote from: free_electron on September 09, 2013, 02:10:31 pmDepends on how you describe Rockstars :-)I know some of them, live part-time on the european equivalent of foodstamps.I don't think they make an average of 40K a year, about the minimum for an master engineer around here.

author: JohnnyGringo
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2013, 03:15:17 pm
content: Quote from: Galenbo on September 09, 2013, 03:04:27 pmSorry about that. Michael Jordan is a former basketball superstar(USA). He never used his Geography degree, but made zillions of dollars playing professional sports. He didn't need that degree, because he had talent. Would he had made the NBA straight out of high school (not going to college), maybe, but very few do.I guess the point of all this is, talent trumps degree any day. But, if you are not an EE superstar, you'd better get that degree.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2013, 03:49:41 pm
content: Quote from: Galenbo on September 09, 2013, 03:07:38 pmif they are living of foodstamps they aint rockstars..rolling stones , led zeppelin , van halen. those are rockstars.

author: edavid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2013, 06:00:07 pm
content: Quote from: DiligentMinds.com on September 08, 2013, 05:55:23 pmEinstein - you are 100% wrong (factually and philosophically)Wozniak - made a point of going back to schoolGates & Ellison - who cares, obviously you don't need a PhD to be a salesmanTesla - probably would have finished school if he hadn't gambled away his tuition money!

author: AG6QR
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2013, 10:02:00 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on September 08, 2013, 11:41:49 amI'll just point out that, while your attitude isn't unusual, there are employers who value academics far more highly. I recall interviewing with Bell Labs back before they became Lucent. This was when I was graduating with a B.S. and was very eager to leave school behind and start doing productive work. They said they really encouraged their new engineers to pursue an M.S. and then PhD, and that if I was hired there, I should plan on returning to school almost immediately. The interviewer wasn't particularly interested in the independent work I brought to the interview. This was a classic example of the interview process demonstrating that there was a mismatch between a candidate and an employer. Neither of us pursued the other, with no hard feelings on either side.So I agree with your hiring strategy, and prefer working at a place doesn't place a huge emphasis on academics, but instead values the demonstrated ability to work independently and see things through to completion. But there are people and organizations that don't think like we do. And if you want to work for one of them (why? I'm not sure), you need to get the credentials.

author: onlooker
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 10, 2013, 01:22:40 am
content: 1). All the talks about genius are irrelevant to OP's question. Are you trying to argue a person without formal education has a high probability to be a genius in any technology or science field, or formal education would likely turn a genius into a layman? Even if these are true, they have nothing to do with if an typical person should or should not receive formal education. The question is whether a formal education can be a help to one's career.2). Ideally, hires should be based on attitude and ability only. But, experience is only one way to show ability and academic achievement is another. Besides, You don't seem to think formal education can be a help for one to gain experience better in general?3). Yes, cost of education can be a concern. But apparently, what you said about PhDs does not reflect the situation in the engineering fields in the USA, unless one can classify MD as in a engineering discipline. PhDs in engineering fields practically cost nothing out packet for the students for all I know. What cost them are their labors. Most of them are on TA, RA or scholarships.

author: edavid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 10, 2013, 01:39:01 am
content: Quote from: DiligentMinds.com on September 09, 2013, 11:29:31 pmStolen! Really!Anyway, wrong:QuoteQuoteSome expert:QuoteQuoteThat you can't get your facts straight!

author: Galenbo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 10, 2013, 07:50:17 am
content: Quote from: JohnnyGringo on September 09, 2013, 03:15:17 pmGood one :-)

author: brabus
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 10, 2013, 09:21:56 am
content: I really do not understand... 5 pages and still arguing on this topic?Everything is wandering around this sentence: "Puh, there's no need to study, look at X*, Y*, and Z*: they became millionaires and famous without any degree!"Sorry but this concept seems total BS for me.They all worked HARD. This is the point.My two cents: we are really looking for the new Einstein, the new Steve Jobs, the new Tesla and so on. But avoiding education "because they made it that way" is not a sensible starting point. So please, start creating, do something concrete, and work hard, instead of finding a way togain with no pain.We're in 2013, and I find pretty hard that someone wakes up tomorrow in nowhereland, with a brand new physics model which shatters the CERN guys. It was hard for Einstein (yes, he studied a lot), it will be hard for everyone else tomorrow.*[put name here]