Multimeter / Bench Meter Delimma (--Fluke 87)  - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: DanielSpokane
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2018, 05:27:10 pm
content: Here is my dilemma:I have a Fluke 87 (original). In general I like the multimeter and have used it for years and years. I work on tube amps and other electronics of which I test capacitance (amoung other things) somewhat regularly. The Fluke 87 only tests capacitance up to 5uF (above that there is a procedure in the manual that includes timing etc.). Instead when I test larger capacitors above that I use an old Micronta bench meter. For about a year now I've been oscillating on what to do. I'm have about $300 +/- to spend. I'm considering either selling my Fluke 87 and buying an 87V... or buying a used bench meter to compliment my 87 (and get rid of my Micronta). I was also looking at the EEVblog meter Dave is selling (out in Dec?)... thinking that might be kind of cool. But I'm also a big Fluke fan and would like to have an 87V. Also lots of bench meters... but at $300 seems like they won't do much more than an 87V. But I have and 87 (original)... so may be a bench meter would be a good choice... but ... but... shoot. I'm back in the cycle.I've been in indecision long enough that it dawned on me maybe someone would have a strong opinion or recommendation. So I pose the question to you. Any takers?

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2018, 05:56:03 pm
content: Get an LCR meter to compliment your F87.Edit: An LCR meter can give you a lot more information about your capacitor than nominal capacitance - they usually tell you the ESR, etc. as well. Ideal for audio work.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2018, 06:01:41 pm
content: Usually bench meters don't measure capacitance but, considering your budget, a cheaper multimeter such as the UT-61E goes quite high on the scale (200mF) - the major issue with this brand is long term calibration.If you also want to go beyond the simple capacitance checker, you can get a more full featured LCR meter that will help measure additional capacitor characteristics (as well as inductor and resistor) - the DER-EE DE-5000 is a reliable and relatively cheap candidate. (a musician repair did a brief evaluationhere)Bench meters are usually not portable but tend to have higher resolution and usually feature 4-wire ohms and data logging - however, you did not mention the need for any of those characteristics and I just put them here for your consideration.Someone with somewhat similar requirements was in a similar dilemma a few weeks ago. Check the ensuing discussion at:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/multimeter-spreadsheet/msg1439426/#msg1439426

author: lem_ix
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2018, 06:02:16 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on April 03, 2018, 05:56:03 pmThis, and you'll have money left over for another meter. I think the DER EE DE5000 is the forum champ but I may be mistaken. Personally have a Lutron LCR-9184 does what I need it for. Do remember to discharge the caps.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2018, 06:16:10 pm
content: An LCR meter can also test your capacitors at different frequencies so you can get an idea of the real capacitance when it's in use* - again, very useful for audio work.(*) It may be a lot less than the nominal capacitance that a multimeter tells you, depending on ESR, ESI, etc.

author: DanielSpokane
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2018, 06:37:52 pm
content: Thank you. That is very helpful. I'm going to chew on that for a bit. I may post more questions/comments after I look into a LCR meter. Seems like it would be incredibly useful!

author: mzacharias
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2018, 06:43:00 pm
content: If you love your Fluke - you're going to end up getting the 87V anyway. The attraction is just too strong. Resistance is futile.

author: DanielSpokane
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2018, 07:02:28 pm
content: Haha! You make a very compelling point!!

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2018, 07:10:43 pm
content: Quote from: rsjsouza on April 03, 2018, 06:01:41 pmEuhhh.. All modern bench meters can measure capacitance nowadays.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2018, 07:31:22 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on April 03, 2018, 07:10:43 pmEven the "old Micronta" can do it.Quote from: mzacharias on April 03, 2018, 06:43:00 pmIf he buys the $100 LCR he's got $200 to put towards one.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2018, 07:40:26 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on April 03, 2018, 07:10:43 pmI stand corrected, although only partially. Not all of the meters still in production support this feature: Rigol, B&K Precision, Keithley 2000 series, Tektronix, some GW Instek,,, There may be others.At any rate, at the OP's under US$300 there will certainly no modern bench meters available.

author: metrologist
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2018, 07:56:04 pm
content: I have an original 87, plus a couple Micronta's (their best hand held model I believe), and several inexpensive imports, and a Uni-T clamp meter, and a DER-EE LCR meter.I would pick up an LCR meter and keep what you have... The DER-EE kit I bought came with probing tweezers too...

author: slurry
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2018, 08:21:46 pm
content: a Peak LCR40 would be a nice complement to the Fluke 87https://www.peakelec.co.uk/acatalog/jz_instruments.htmlI have the LCR40, ESR70 and DCApro and i'm happy with all of them for general fault finding.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2018, 08:22:07 pm
content: DanielSpokaneBased on my previous (not so much now) repair work and ventures into SMD .....If you're doing any SMD a good pair of Smart Tweezers will be a better investment than a bench meter for LCR work.http://www.smarttweezers.com/st5s/I've got an earlier set than ST5 and many times they have identified crook caps, either low C or high ESR.L measurement works great too.TBH when examining a PCB in detail I use them much more than a DMM.And yes I can grab my demo 6.5 unit bench meter anytime but the tweezers are faster and more convenient.Tweezers while not being able to span two connections more than ~1" easily do most TH components either by using the points or an under/over style against the leads and all one handed. This type of use was unexpected when I got them many years back. I use them to 5kuF quite regularly.

author: coromonadalix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2018, 09:02:53 pm
content: get an lcr meter like an de-5000 doesn't cost a fortune and goes up to 100khz wich is the standard nowadays, esr etc ... would be practical for youfor an bench meter i've sent you an pm email

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 04, 2018, 12:57:54 am
content: Another vote to keep your trusted meter and get a DER EE DE-5000. If you really insist on another multimeter then consider a BM829S ans still be under or close to your budget with the DE-5000.

author: DanielSpokane
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 10, 2018, 02:54:42 pm
content: Was looking on ebay and I can get a Agilent U1732A for about the same price as a DER EE DE-5000. I'm always drawn to HP.... but the DER EE DE-5000 seems to be a staple for LCR meters. Thoughts?

author: BillB
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 10, 2018, 03:16:24 pm
content: Another vote for the DE-5000! For $100 street price, you aren't going to find a better LCR. Pocket the saved cash for the next purchase.

author: Alex P
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2018, 07:09:58 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on April 03, 2018, 07:10:43 pmCertainly not. E.g. Fluke 8845A and Tektronix DMM4040 cannot.

author: coromonadalix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2018, 09:14:02 pm
content: An fluke 189 will go up to 50,000 uf, tested up to 12,000uf and was spot on, and doesn't cost a fortune 199$ usd at fixmyfluke.comthey have several models ... bought a second fluke189 from them, very satisfied and clean, and i finally managed to find 2 more bp189 battery packs for a total of 3 ....Im waiting for an restocking of accuhard a101 usb lcr meter, sure it need an pc, but at 120$ its still par on specs with an deer de-5000but im hesitating between the two ... found on ebay some tweezers who goes on standard dmm plugs spacing and other with kelvin modes gold plated under 25$...An fluke 8846a goes up to 100,000 uf if i recall, but at minimum 1.2 k$$$ outchIn the not recent section i have : my Gossen's 28s and 29s goes up to 30,000 uf, 2x fluke 189, just sold an old bk precision 5490 (aka metrix mx556) who could go up to 50,000 uf too, they aged very well and where all in specsThere's not a ton of meters who can do 2000uf and upfor an dmm a large capacitor may take up to 10 secs to display, and a real lcr meter may be faster, and have more optionsTotally against oled based meters and some keysight, and some other badly designed brand of meters, my personal choices where data logging and easy fuses access, and external power supply possibility, i totally hated to open the fluke 83 at my job to change the fuses, changed them for the 189, way way betterDont know why the 187 and the 189 did not gain more exposure than th 8x series, tried the 287 and 289 and hated themThe eevblog gw121 is tempting but i'll wait for more maturity and corrected physical parts and firmware bugs before buying it.

author: DanielSpokane
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 12, 2018, 05:27:27 am
content: Well after much consternation... I'm thinking maybe I need to adjust my budget.I'm thinking I'm going to buy a DER EE DE-5000 for capacitor measurements. I've been convinced of that.I think I'm also going to buy a bench meter. I think I would like a bench meter not just for the cap measurements (which was the reason I was originally looking) but also because it would be nice to have some added digits as well as some of the new functions they are putting in a lot of the newer bench meters. Right now I'm think a Siglent SDM 3055 looks pretty cool. I wish it was 6.5 digits... but it's a pretty big cost jump going to the 3065x. I looked at a few others (the Siglent looks like it has a better display and price is lower than the Rigol, etc.). Seems like you get a lot of value with the Siglent SDM3055 (Amazon is selling for $439).Thoughts? Fatal flaws?

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 12, 2018, 08:45:37 am
content: Quote from: DanielSpokane on April 12, 2018, 05:27:27 amGiven the DER EE DE -5000 will do more with capacitors than a DMM anyway, you'd be better off ditching the capacitance function on a bench DMM and opt for 6.5 digits then (or less money for a 5.5 digit model).There's a lot of decent usedHP/Agilent/Keysight 344601A's on eBay right now, and within what you're looking to spend on the SDM3055.If 5.5 digits will actually do, you'd be able to get a dual display model for even less. One example would be aGW Instek GDM-8251A.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 12, 2018, 08:52:06 am
content: I wouldn't bother upgrading from the 87 to 87V, much better off having a 2nd multimeter, either bench or handheld.If you can get a 5.5 or 6.5 digit bench meter for the money, then that can be very useful.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 12, 2018, 12:54:22 pm
content: Quote from: DanielSpokane on April 12, 2018, 05:27:27 amThat certainly puts the price of a Fluke 87V into perspective.

author: SMB784
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 12, 2018, 03:54:42 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on April 12, 2018, 08:52:06 amAlot of HP 3457A's are going for <$200 on eBay. Most sell for around $150-175, and in my opinion it's really hard to beat that performance at that price.

author: DanielSpokane
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 12, 2018, 06:58:30 pm
content: Thanks for the recommendations. Very helpful.So I'm curious... is no one impressed with the Siglent SDM3055? I thought it looked like a pretty good value with some pretty exciting features. I will give some thought to the other options presented. But... still have a hard time not leaning towards the SDM3055. Maybe it's just the "shiny new" toy effect?

author: lem_ix
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 12, 2018, 07:21:10 pm
content: I would take the Siglent, decent price and fresh cal. Nothing against used instruments but you need to have the ability to verify their performance. Here's a vid of the SDM3045SDM3065There's an older one of the 3055 by signal path but they've supposedly upgraded the software since (faster).Not sure about the differences between the meters besides the counts maybe someone can add info.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 12, 2018, 07:46:48 pm
content: Quote from: DanielSpokane on April 12, 2018, 06:58:30 pmUnless any video researched is quite recent I'd be inclined to take it with a grain of salt.As you're probably aware SDM3055 was Siglent's first venture into a bench DMM and initial FW versions were as Dave would say pretty 'how ya doing'.They are much much better now and I've never had bad feedback from customers disappointed with their purchase.The SDM3065X shootout linked above was with my demo unit and after a while Defpom came back and bought it from me. You can see he uses it in many of his videos.Dan, you already have Siglent gear so you should be able to buy with confidence.

author: DanielSpokane
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 13, 2018, 07:01:37 am
content: Thanks for the comments and videos. Yes, I do have Siglent gear and have been very pleased. Looking over those videos is really solidifying my desire to get one. Boy the 3065x looks pretty cool... but a big price jump from the 3055. Think it's worth it?

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 13, 2018, 07:44:20 am
content: Quote from: DanielSpokane on April 13, 2018, 07:01:37 amHow far do you want to fall down the volt-nuttery hole is probably a better question.I've had both as my personal units and they double as demo units but if it's just for normal bench use, 3055 is what I'd pick. Initially only a 3065X could have the SC1016 16ch scanner option but now we can have it in 3055 as well but in both cases it must be factory fitted.Siglent have yet to add an X to 3055 but for all intensive purposes it's now an X after adding the newer rubber bumpers to the earlier models.They only reason I now have the 3065X is I can get them at trade and it'sjustone demo for me that covers all models.For the bulk of measurement 10mV resolution is accurate enough unless you must have 'the ducks nuts'.With the good $ saved instead of 3065X I'd get a good pair of Smart Tweezers then you won't want for much more on the bench.

author: DanielSpokane
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 18, 2018, 06:03:42 am
content: Well... I just placed my order for a Siglent SDM3055. Should arrive on Friday. I'm excited. And for good measure I found a guy selling a nearly new 87V that I'm going to buy and will list my 87. That should be a nice upgrade too. Now I just need to order the DER EE DE-5000 and I'm set.Hopefully that's not overkill! ... but will be nice to have.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 18, 2018, 06:11:19 am
content: Quote from: DanielSpokane on April 18, 2018, 06:03:42 amOh, suuuuure you will.Be sure to post a link to that.

author: DanielSpokane
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 18, 2018, 06:28:43 am
content: Haha!... yeah we will see if I can muster up the gumption to actually list my beloved 87!Anyone have any recommendation on a good value test lead kit?

author: DanielSpokane
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 18, 2018, 06:35:48 am
content: Or doesn't necessarily have to be "value"... how about just a good test lead kit?

author: DanielSpokane
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 18, 2018, 02:49:50 pm
content: I am considering these:https://www.pomonaelectronics.com/products/dmm-test-leads-and-probes/test-companion-kit-fluke-tektronix-metersAnyone have any experince with these? ... I assume they will fit a Siglent meter?Any others to consider?

author: metrologist
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 18, 2018, 02:54:30 pm
content: Don't know about that kit, but Pomona is generally very good quality.

author: DanielSpokane
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 18, 2018, 02:56:55 pm
content: Shoot... I was looking at the price of just the leads. Looks like the whole kit is $175. Hmmm that is pretty spendy. Might have to shop a bit more.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 18, 2018, 04:38:59 pm
content: Quote from: DanielSpokane on April 18, 2018, 02:49:50 pm4mm shrouded banana, yep they'll fit.Unless the meter's to be on a high shelf you might be better with straight banana plugs rather than 90's.Quote4 wire Kelvin leads.

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 18, 2018, 11:24:56 pm
content: Quote from: DanielSpokane on April 18, 2018, 02:56:55 pmFWIW, I'd suggest taking a look at the Probemaster9104S Electronic Deluxe Test Lead Kit(S version uses straight retractable banana connectors, which will work with anything IME). Much better value than the Pomona Kit.Theirspring loaded test leadsare better made than what Fluke/Pomona offers, and would be an excellent addition if you'll be working on a lot of SMD.

author: CustomEngineerer
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 19, 2018, 04:02:28 am
content: Quote from: DanielSpokane on April 18, 2018, 06:03:42 amI purchased a SDM3055 about 2 months ago and have been very happy with it so far. I have not had any problems with it at all, and it really is a joy to use.And also agree with nanofrog, the probemaster leads are highly recommended.

author: coromonadalix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 19, 2018, 10:21:57 am
content: I dont find the 87v excitingyou have brymen, hioki, sanwa meters who have good features speed etc... not too highly priced in some cases.Fluke lost me past the 83 series III and the same with 87 series III, stupidity to start in ac modes and have to switch in dc instead erkWith patience you can find very clean fluke 187 - 189 or even 287 - 289 series too ... to me there is no dilemna at all, it depends on your needs, and how much youre willing to go or payThe SDM3055 has a nice display