Is the RiGOL DS1054Z still Dave's choice for under $500? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: JenniferG
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2022, 10:32:36 am
content: Just watched Dave's video on this scope, but the video is 7 years old:Timestamped to Dave's Verdict:https://youtu.be/ETCOhzU1O5A?t=596I want a four channel scope, deep memory, triggers/decoders enabled, 100mhz. And the Rigol DS1054Z has all of that.My only real concern -- with my very limited knowledge -- is about the display update speed. I heard the newer affordable Sigilents are quite a bit faster? I see a good affordable Sigilent 2 channel on sale for $287 right now on Amazon, but I really want four channels.https://www.amazon.com/Siglent-Technologies-SDS1202X-Oscilloscope-Channels/dp/B06XZML6RDThe only scope I have currently is the analog scope: Tektronix 2225.Best price I see on the Rigol DS1054Z is on Amazon for $418 -- don't know of any sales (e.g. black friday)

author: gpr
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2022, 11:37:32 am
content: Rigol DS1054Z was the only budget 4-channel scope at that time. But now, newer and more capable 4ch scopes are available, though slightly more expensive.My personal go-to 4ch scope for ~500$ budget would be Siglent 1104X-E (hackable to 200Mhz, 2ADCs). There is slightly cheaper X-U version as well.1104X-E is better than DS1054Z in almost every aspect, including UI speed.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2022, 12:15:20 pm
content: If you are in the US then take a look at the GW Instek GDS-1054B (hackable to 100MHz). It is about the cheapest option to get a decent 4 channel scope on the US market. The Rigol DS1054Z is very outdated.This company typically sells them at a low price; there is an additional discount for EEVblog forum membershttps://www.tequipment.net/Instek/GDS-1054B/Digital-Oscilloscopes/?search=true

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2022, 12:57:21 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on November 24, 2022, 12:15:20 pmI wouldn't go that far, it still does the same job and this isn't a world with new models every six months.If you're in the USA though, get the Instek. The price of those has dropped massively since Dave's video. The bandwidth will be slightly lower but it's a nicer 'scope.

author: JenniferG
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2022, 01:51:31 pm
content: Was reading a bit about the Gwinstek GDS-1054B. It doesn't have ANY serial decoding? The Rigol DS1054Z has quite a bit in that regard.

author: gpr
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2022, 02:08:36 pm
content: https://www.gwinstek.com/en-global/products/detail/GDS-1000BI2C/SPI/UART/CAN/LIN serial bus trigger and decoding functions

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2022, 02:15:42 pm
content: Quote from: gpr on November 24, 2022, 02:08:36 pmIndeed. From what I've read the current models should have all this enabled out of the box. If not, then these can be enabled using a simple key-generator that can be run in your web browser.

author: Adrian_Arg.
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2022, 03:13:06 pm
content: hello, I have a released rigol ds1054z, I use it 3 or four times a month, I keep doing the same as when I bought it, electronic projects and arduino, esp32 etc, it works perfect, I'm 56 years old I don't think I'll invest in one again But if I had to buy my first oscilloscope today, I would buy the Siglent 1104X-E, which is more modern.but I repeat, I am very satisfied with the ds1054z, I am a hobbyist, I don't need more.in spanishhola, yo poseo un rigol ds1054z liberado, lo uso 3 o cuatro veces al mes, yo sigo realizando lo mismo que cuando lo compre, proyectos de electronica y arduino, esp32 etc, funciona perfecto, tengo 56 años no creo volver a invertir en uno, pero si yo tuviera que comprar hoy mi primer osciloscopio compraria el Siglent 1104X-E que es mas moderno.pero te repito, estoy muy conforme con el ds1054z, soy hobbysta, no preciso mas.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2022, 04:01:17 pm
content: Quote from: JenniferG on November 24, 2022, 10:32:36 amI would go and take a look at T&M vendors instead of Amazon. You might get better prices.Some even give additional EEVBLOG discount.Any of the 3 scopes mentioned are capable of doing the job of beginners scope. Rigol is a bit slow at times and it shows it is cheapest, GW instek is nicer, and Siglent SDS1000X-E has most capable hardware, best analog performance. Any of the 3 will be amazing first scope. I would lean towards GW Instek and Siglent because there are things they do much better (like FFT, which can show you spectrum of signal).But really any of the 3 will be good beginners scope.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2022, 07:41:18 pm
content: Quote from: JenniferG on November 24, 2022, 01:51:31 pmYes it does. They added it a couple of years ago.(and before that you could add it yourself by copying the decoder module over from a higher-up model)

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2022, 10:48:43 pm
content: Hi,From the three mentioned scope I´ve owned two, rigol and siglent.Once the rigol was a true gamechanger, no doubt about it.It opens a new world for hobbyists with low budget, IMHO the first "serious&cheap" scope.The siglent is better in several ways, more "adulter".At work we still got both scopes here, once they were bought for decoding spi, first the rigol, then the siglent (it do this better).GwInstek I don´t know, we got functiongenerators and milli-ohm meter from them, but no scopes.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 24, 2022, 11:38:40 pm
content: I do believe the general concensus is that the Siglent is the more bang-per-buck option, but the Rigol is cheaper and still a pretty good option.I don't know if my original 1054Z is still the current hardware and suitable for a modern shootout?

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2022, 11:49:25 pm
content: Won´t believe they (rigol) have changed anything.We got three DS1054Z at work, from 2016 up to 2019, without any differences between (after firmware updates).Edit:A shootout of the actual avaible cheapos is a good idea, not less want to see this.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2022, 11:53:53 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on November 24, 2022, 11:38:40 pmThey used to be approx the same bang:buck - Siglent was better but proportionally more expensive.The price of the Rigol has been creeping up lately though so the ratio has changed.The Instek has dropped a lot in price in the USA (but not the rest of the world for some reason). It now costs about the same as the Rigol over there. It's nicer and more capable than the Rigol.Don't get trapped thinking "If only..." though. If the Rigol is all you can get your hands on then get the Rigol. It will completely transform your work if you don't currently have a 'scope.Quote from: EEVblog on November 24, 2022, 11:38:40 pmHardware hasn't changed.

author: ledtester
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 25, 2022, 12:00:43 am
content: For discounts, do this advanced forum search:tequipment.net and saelig.com are US-based distributors that have had (and probably still have) discounts for eevblog members.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 25, 2022, 12:01:46 am
content: At one time stock 54Z vs stock 4ch X-E, the X-E had a better features set as Decodes were free and it offered WiFi, MSO and AWG options at additional cost.Today decodes are now part of the 54Z feature set but Logging and NTP clock have been added to the 4ch X-E feature set.Standing still is never an option however ppl seem to think 5 yr old videos relay the current state of affairs....they don't !

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 25, 2022, 12:10:43 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on November 24, 2022, 11:38:40 pmDon't forget to include GW Instek 1054B and MicSig TO1000 in such a shootout. Depending on location, prices can be very competitive between those models.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 25, 2022, 12:20:58 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on November 25, 2022, 12:10:43 amThe Micsig is not a comparative bench scope.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 25, 2022, 12:22:44 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on November 24, 2022, 11:53:53 pmTotally. Local price might ultimately determine what's right for you.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 25, 2022, 12:23:24 am
content: You missed it--the Siglent SDS1104X-E was on sale for a bit for $399. I've no idea whether it will be again, but for the same price it would be the clear choice. The Rigol would be in last place among the three scopes mentioned here, but it is still not bad. I had one, the Siglent is clearly better. The GW-Instek I haven't tried but those that have them seem to like them.If you can double your budget$999 will get you a whole lot more...https://www.tequipment.net/Siglent/SDS2104X-Plus/Digital-Oscilloscopes/?v=0

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 25, 2022, 12:35:51 am
content: Then we need also consider what constitutes a satisfactory spec for a beginners 4ch DSO, 4channels and bugger all else or a specific feature set to grow into ?Experienced users might decide on only just the basics as they know exactly what they need.BW, what BW is sufficient for a beginner to work with for true and accurate reproduction of waveforms ?At one time it was 10, then 20, then 30, then 50 however in the time we've been doing this 100 MHz has been our bottom limit knowing a better instrument can serve you for longer.Feature set.How much is too much or the more the merrier ?What does the scope novice need and expect ?

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 25, 2022, 12:39:33 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on November 25, 2022, 12:20:58 amI don´t know if they claimed it actually, but I was surprised to read this on the batronix website a few yrs ago.Or more precisely, they wrote Micsig is good but can´t compete to rigol and siglent scopes.And they are micsig distributor..

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 25, 2022, 12:41:54 am
content: Quote from: Martin72 on November 25, 2022, 12:39:33 amI could be too as they keep knocking on our door but I don't seeanyadvantage in taking them on.

author: balnazzar
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 25, 2022, 01:57:46 am
content: Don't forget you can Bode plot on the Siglent. Sooner or later, one *has* to do some basic FRA. It has even be hacked so to allow Bode plotting with cheap non-Siglent AWGs. Like, the fy6900-6600 for sure.OTOH, the1104x-e is damn loud (no idea about 1054Z or Instek loudness).

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 25, 2022, 02:08:02 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on November 25, 2022, 12:20:58 amOfcourse it is. Don't get fooled by the form factor; it is a full fledged bench oscilloscope. It has all the right features to make it a true bench oscilloscope. Rock solid firmware as well. It is not a 'typical' handheld/portable DSO-ish device that can only show some wiggly lines. You'd be wrong to leave the MicSig TO1000 (or one of the recent incarnations with knobs) out in a US $500 price bracket shootout.

author: JenniferG
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 25, 2022, 02:09:29 am
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on November 25, 2022, 12:23:24 amWhere's the Black Friday deal? lol. I'd grab one for $399 for sure

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 25, 2022, 02:24:10 am
content: Quote from: JenniferG on November 24, 2022, 01:51:31 pmA few hours of use will quickly disabuse you of the notion that the Rigol has serial decoding. It's a novelty at best.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 25, 2022, 02:44:51 am
content: Quote from: balnazzar on November 25, 2022, 01:57:46 amFTFY

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 25, 2022, 07:00:23 am
content: Quote from: tautech on November 25, 2022, 12:41:54 amYou don't see any advantage in a really easy, fast, touch screen, portable oscilloscope?Quote from: balnazzar on November 25, 2022, 01:57:46 amQuote from: Monkeh on November 25, 2022, 02:24:10 amCompared to what? It's basic, sure, but it works. At this price point you won't get anything amazing from any of the others, either.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 25, 2022, 09:30:01 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on November 25, 2022, 02:08:02 amIt would be a $500 price bracketbench scopeshootout.If you don't like that then you are free to make your own shootout

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 25, 2022, 10:25:59 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on November 25, 2022, 02:08:02 amI partially disagree. It is something in between handheld and desktop scope.I have Micsig STO1004 and had Rigol DS1074Z.And I like Micsig but I bought it as a portable scope.It has nice big screen, battery, filters in channels, etc. It is more responsive too.But it has no statistics on measurements, list mode on decodes is text mode only and works in some separate acquisition mode. You cannot have both on the screen or even switch back and forth.It can be used as a basic desktop scope, but even DS1000Z is more rounded in general. But decoding works better on Micsig for instance. And FFT is much better. So it, again, depends what is important to user. To some Micsig would be better, to some not.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 25, 2022, 10:33:32 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on November 25, 2022, 09:30:01 amBut why do you not qualify the TO1000 as a bench scope? By all means it is a bench scope. Just like the new (flat) Tektronix you reviewed. Or wouldn't you classify that as a bench scope either?@2N3055: you do realise that you are just comparing feature sets here? On the contrary: the TO1000 can make videos of signals (which none of the other scopes have) and it has filtering (which Rigol & Siglent don't have), the screen is much bigger and the memory of the current models is the biggest (70Mpts). On the Rigol decoding doesn't even seem to be useful... So yes, there are differences that affect usefullness for some use cases, but discarding the TO1000 series in a $500 dollar scope comparison just because of the form factor -and the current models do have knobs- is a mistake.

author: JenniferG
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 25, 2022, 11:01:31 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on November 25, 2022, 09:30:01 amI like it because that's my dollar limit I set. Seems like it would be a great videoPerhaps Siglent, Rigol and Gwinstek will each send you a new unit for the shoot out?

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 25, 2022, 12:06:09 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on November 25, 2022, 10:33:32 amI said my opinion on featureset, you are correct. Some of the features you mention are not on sub 500$ scopes. I paid more than 500$ for mine too..Please leave me out of your semantic dispute with Dave on "what does the desktop scope means".My opinion on this is: His comparison, his rules...Best,

author: balnazzar
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 25, 2022, 12:48:42 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on November 25, 2022, 02:44:51 amIn which sense?

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 25, 2022, 01:08:59 pm
content: Quote from: balnazzar on November 25, 2022, 12:48:42 pmIn a sense it was you that created in excess of 100 posts how it bothers you that it is so loud. And while there was an occasional user that did say they think noise is audible and they would like it to quieter or would use other scope for them because of that, you basically complained more about it than whole collective Internet combined...That is some dedication, I give you that...

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 25, 2022, 02:43:32 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on November 25, 2022, 07:00:23 amCompared to a piece of paper and doing it by hand, which actually produces accurate results.Far better off with any generic FX2 based logic analyzer and sigrok - check your signal integrity with the scope, if you want to look at data, capture it into something useful.

author: JenniferG
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 25, 2022, 02:50:51 pm
content: No love from Amazon/Siglent today on the SDS1104X-E. I was hopping it'd drop to $399 so I can buy it. I'm not going to buy it until it's $399 again. It was $399 for a couple weeks earlier this month but I didn't know about the scope.

author: MikeK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 25, 2022, 04:08:45 pm
content: Quote from: JenniferG on November 25, 2022, 02:50:51 pmMaybe on Cyber Monday?

author: JenniferG
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 25, 2022, 04:48:12 pm
content: Quote from: MikeK on November 25, 2022, 04:08:45 pmDo you know of any good tools or apps that poll say Amazon to check price every 15 minutes or so? It's such a time waster to keep manually checking every hour.

author: MikeK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 25, 2022, 05:04:53 pm
content: Quote from: JenniferG on November 25, 2022, 04:48:12 pm* Putting "amazon price alert" into the googler returned a couple useful results* camelcamelcamel.com* write a Python script

author: balnazzar
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 25, 2022, 08:31:50 pm
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on November 25, 2022, 01:08:59 pm

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 26, 2022, 03:01:22 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on November 25, 2022, 10:33:32 amWith the stand and the front bottom mounted inputs like a normal bench scope, plus controls, the Tek makes the grade as a bench scope. It'sclearlydesigned as a bench scope with some portability in mind.The Micsig TO1000 is literally a tablet scope only. Inputs are on the top not the front, and no front panel controls. It'sclearlynot a bench scopeIt literally says Tablet Oscilloscope on the front of it!The Tek can kind of sorta be uised a table oscilloscope with it's dual battery and removable stand, but the inputs are still on the front like a normal bench scope. And it still has control like normal bench scope.

author: JenniferG
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2022, 03:08:08 am
content: So weird, Siglent and "Siglent Technologies" aren't in Wikipedia. And the Rigol entry has like 2 short paragraphs lol:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RIGOL_Technologies

author: JeremyC
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2022, 05:09:12 am
content: Quote from: JenniferG on November 26, 2022, 03:08:08 amJenniferG, wikipedia and similar are great places, but they aren’t an oracleYou should check opinions about products in topic specific forums like this. Sure, you will read a lot of BS, argues between evangelist, etc. Take your time and “chew” it. For sure if you see again the SDS1104X-E below $400 it’s no brainier. In last 2 years I had this scope for 1 week at the time, and in my opinion it’s awesome scope in this price range, even at $499. One thing what bothered me was annoying, irregular noise coming from the cooling fan.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2022, 05:24:58 am
content: Whatever you decide to get, check the price on Tequipment, last I heard they still offered a discount for eevblog members. A friend of mine bought the Rigol a couple years ago, I've played around with it a few times and was fairly impressed, it offers a lot of bang for the buck and it's really compact.

author: JenniferG
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2022, 05:40:58 am
content: Quote from: JeremyC on November 26, 2022, 05:09:12 amI was just wanting to read a little bit about the company and found it odd no one made an entry in wikipedia for it. Is there any mods which can be done to it to quiet down the fan? Like replace it with a better more silent one?Btw. does the 2200 series scope for $999 have higher resolution ADC's? How many does it have?

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2022, 05:56:19 am
content: Quote from: JenniferG on November 26, 2022, 05:40:58 amThe fan noise depends a lot on where you put the scope and what is around it. Some people have put quieter fans in, I personally don't see the point.I assume you mean the SDS2104X+. It has dual 2GSa/s 8-bit ADCs but through some simple trickery is able to work in a 10-bit mode with a maximum of 100MHz bandwidth. The 10-bit mode works pretty well IMO, as can be shown by using the vertical zoom feature.

author: JeremyC
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2022, 06:27:34 am
content: QuoteI used to work in quiet environment and possibly the noise may be not a problem to others. Some people posted how to improve the fan.The SDS2000X Plus does have 8bit ADC. The advertises “10 bit mode” applies only to acquisition mode, it’s only marketing trick. In summary you will get only 8 bit vertical resolution.The 2104x plus it’s big step above the SDS1000X-E series. You can hack it to 500Mhz,Check this link:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-hack/built in 50MHz AWG (simplified, but good enough for Bode plot) generator and much more, etc. If you can spend the $999, it’s no brainier in my opinion, the offer will expire by end of this year.I'm not an expert, but in my opinion you can trust Siglent no less than Rigol.

author: JenniferG
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2022, 06:34:48 am
content: Thanks everyone for all the replies. Someone on another forum said they recently purchased the Rigol HDO1074. It's a 12 bit ADC and only $699? I imagine it can be hacked eventually as well.If I got the HD01074 instead of the Sigilents mentioned above, what would I be lacking ? How does the UI and display performance compare between the them? Seems like 12 bit ADC is a huge upgrade. SIXTEEN times the resolution!

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2022, 06:36:52 am
content: Quote from: JenniferG on November 26, 2022, 06:34:48 amIt's already been hacked.

author: JeremyC
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2022, 06:43:19 am
content: Quote from: JenniferG on November 26, 2022, 06:34:48 amI believe the HDO1074 is $999, the 1072 (2 channel) is $699.Yes, you will get 12bit, but you should ask yourself if you really need it.The Rigol 12bit series doesn’t have Bode plot as option (it maybe not important for some people, but it’s for me).

author: JeremyC
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2022, 06:55:04 am
content: Quote from: JenniferG on November 26, 2022, 06:34:48 amIf you want compare "apples to apples" then you should compare SDS2000X Plus series with SDS2000X HD. In Rigol line the closest would be the HDO4000 series and not the HDO1000...

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2022, 10:34:22 am
content: Quote from: JenniferG on November 26, 2022, 06:34:48 amHi,you should do more research than just wikipedia. Rigol and Siglent have web sites with detailed documentation. They both have USA/EU HQ and several well respected distributors that also give customer support. I would at least download datasheets and compare feature sets to see if scopes have functions you need.Comparison between SDS2000X+ and DHO1000 is not really one to one. DHO1000 has 12bit ADC, 4 analog ch. Also it also goes to only 200MHz. SDS2000X+ goes to 500 Mhz, has 4 analog and 16 digital channels (20 total signals).DHO1000 series is also really new (just released) and you have to be prepared to deal with early software releases and wait for Rigol to fix all the early release bugs.More resolution is nice. OTOH most people out there use 8bit scopes.It really depends what you plan to do with it.If nothing is know of application, then max number of channels and biggest BW is prefered, because there is nothing you can do if you don't have enough of those for the application.If you need to look at 432MHz signal, 200MHz scope wont do regardless of resolution. If you want to debug 12 digital signals, you need that many channels. If you need to measure very low level signals with absolute best resolution, you need low noise high resolution scope.

author: JenniferG
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2022, 12:24:43 pm
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on November 26, 2022, 10:34:22 amI never said I was relying on Wikipedia. I just said I found it odd Siglent doesn't even have an entry nor does Rigol have more than 2 paragraphs.Thanks for all that great info though about the scopes.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2022, 12:52:32 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on November 26, 2022, 03:01:22 amYou do realise that the one you have is an older model; the newer models do have knobs. And your logic about the location of inputs or what it says on the badge doesn't make sense. Feature wise, the MicSig with or without knobs is perfectly useable as a bench scope and thus is a serious option to consider when looking for a low cost oscilloscope. I see a lot of prejudice and very little logic.As a side note:Recently I bought a portable base station analyser that can do both spectrum analysis and vector network analysis. Nice little, portable machine that works quite well as a spectrum analyser and VNA. For a recent EMC job I noticed that I used the base station analyser more rather than my high end spectrum analyser. And the reason is simple: the base station analyser just takes less space and it is quiet. Feature wise it has everything I need for EMC precompliance testing. I'm also in the process of getting better tooling for EMC testing. This also means setting up automated testing so I had a choice to make: do I use my big spectrum analyser or the portable one? One of the things I had to step over was a mental barrier: the base station analyser is just a little portable device; not serious test equipment. Just like you have with the MicSig DSO. However, after thinking about it logically and just making a list with pros and cons the base station analyser comes out on top to use as a spectrum analyser for my EMC testing setup (even without having a SCPI protocol specification).

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2022, 12:58:59 pm
content: Quote from: JenniferG on November 26, 2022, 12:24:43 pmSorry if I misunderstood. Article in Wikipedia is something that is not guaranteed. It is community moderated, and it poses an interesting question who writes all these Wikipedia topics on large companies and for what purpose... And what information is there and what isn't..Chinese manufacturers don't have a culture of that kind of marketing.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2022, 01:00:35 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on November 26, 2022, 12:52:32 pmNewest ones again took proper knobs away and replaced them with funky little joysticks... Which i never tried but used devices with these little joysticks I don't like the idea..

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2022, 01:03:35 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on November 26, 2022, 12:52:32 pmThe inputs on the top is absolutely the best place for them. It gives the 'scope amuchsmaller footprint on the bench.(In case thinks they'll dangle down in front of the screen: They don't, they go down behind and come out around the side...)My guess is that Dave doesn't have a Micsig and doesn't want to buy one for the shootout.Whatever, it's his video so his rules...

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2022, 01:10:10 pm
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on November 26, 2022, 01:00:35 pmI'm not sure I do either but:a) They're not the only way to do things (you can operate a Micsig without ever touching a knob)andb) People have said they're OK in the Micsig thread.c) Micsigs have "autoranging" mode so you don't have to touch the controls anywhere near as often as on other 'scopes.See this video at 12m45s:

author: artag
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2022, 01:13:54 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on November 25, 2022, 02:43:32 pmAgreed. I have an Agilent DSO7014A. It's old now but pretty capable - unusally for its time, and possibly still now, it has hardware serial decode. This means that you can trigger on the serial pattern, not just edges. Frustratingly, it will only decode two channels : it ought to use the hardware decode for the trigger channel and software-decode other channels.But although I occasionally use that feature because the scope's on the bench and usually switched on, for any substantial serial decode I use a salae analyser. It doesnt have hardware triggering (I think the latest software does have a software trigger) but the ability to capture and work with a practically infinite length of capture is a killer feature - and available at very low cost if you use Sigrok instead of Saleae.Even though later scopes have deeper capture than my agilent, searching, panning and listing on a PC interface is worlds away from doing it on a scope screen, even a big one like the 7014.Put all your effort into the first line features - update rate, sample rate, readability - and leave the features like serial decode, function generators etc. to dedicated boxes. In some circumstances it can be attractive to have everything in one box but the upgrade route is restricted and 'jack of all trades is master of none'.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2022, 01:27:07 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on November 26, 2022, 01:10:10 pmYeah but that means you don't need stupid things at all if you have to use touch screen (so no need for those little joysticks at all).And also, in video you linked in almost an hour that person used joysticks maybe 2 times. He pressed few buttons. Of course he will say it's alright because he didn't need them at all...For instance, moving cursors with finger is horribly inaccurate. You select cursor with finger (that is fast and intuitive) and then move it with a button.Same applies to many other operations. Or you tap on value to enter it numerically. When you move waveform, if you just want to move somewhere else to see something, touch gestures work ok. If you want to move it precisely, use knob... Or type in numerical value.I don't know, I'm not luddite, but not everything new is a progress. I'm not convinced.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2022, 02:00:44 pm
content: Quote from: artag on November 26, 2022, 01:13:54 pmHardware decode is not prerequisite to serial triggers. Siglent, for instance has software decoding but hardware based serial triggers.Also hardware decoding has benefit of speed, but has big drawback that you have to capture data with the decoder in a first place..Which means you have to setup everything perfectly, and then capture to get data decoded.On scopes with software decode, you can simply capture any signal, and then turn on decoding and keep setting it up until it recognizes data protocol properly. You can try different speeds, setting, or even protocols while trying do figure out what kind of protocol is that.On Picoscope you can even decode from Math channel, which allows you to precondition signal before decoding.Decoding on a scope is very convenient. It allows you to look at data in analog and digital domain simultaneously. When you have problems with something you need to check both.But I already said before, for debugging software layer, and lots of data a USB protocol analyser that logs unlimited data to PC is better.I was planning to get one long time ago (and got 2) but realized that for this type of work Picoscope with deep memory will do great job of both...So never bought a Saelae (which I could have bought while it's price made more sense than today).If I buy any LA in the future, it will be 32 channels... I had occasional need for more than 16 inputs...Maybe DSLogic U3Pro32?I have older Zeroplus LAP-C 16256 and don't use it. It has limited memory and cannot stream to PC directly. It decodes loads of protocols though. New LAP-C Pro 32064M sounds fantastic, but is expensive for a thing I would use very rarely. I would rather buy DMM6500 or new VNA...I also have Digital Discovery. About which I have mixed feelings. It has some unique features (like pattern generation or ROM mode) and I mostly use it for that. It's biggest problem is that it's inputs a very fragile. They directly connected inputs to FPGA over some resistors and that's it. All my MSO scopes have good protection and variable thresholds. (MSOX3104T: Maximum input voltage ± 40 V peak CAT I; transient overvoltage 800 Vpk).But maybe an input conditioning board could be made and it is very useful device. For instance, I used it test two communications problems, where I used it to generate random signals simulating sensors triggering, and looking for relay activations and serial messages being sent... After few hours of that running on it's own, I found there was one state that went into interlock. Some changes in code, and that was it..

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2022, 02:37:23 pm
content: Quote from: artag on November 26, 2022, 01:13:54 pmYeah, but sometimes you really want to see it in real time, not press "record", wait a while... press "stop"... then start mousing around looking for something useful.eg. I was writing a bitbang I2C last week and my Micsig was showing the test packet in real time, along with all the ACK/NAK bits, etc.No need to touch the 'scope at all while I was coding. I just glance at the screen and there it is.That's "killer" for that job, not the memory length.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2022, 02:53:11 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on November 26, 2022, 02:37:23 pmNow imagine that it's near impossible to get it to decode correctly, and the triggers only work on blood moons.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2022, 07:59:38 pm
content: The vast majority of digital scopes are only 8 bit, personally I have never found that to be a limiting factor and I would take other features over increased ADC resolution at a given price point. There may be some tasks where 12 bit offers an advantage, but that is a niche case and if you need it you would probably know.

author: markone
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2022, 08:02:08 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on November 26, 2022, 02:37:23 pmThe current Logic 2 program version shows traces and decoded serials in real time too, while it records, with simple Cypress FX2 LAs in streaming mode (at least within certain time scales and baud rate).Worth a try, Just in case.

author: Karel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2022, 09:06:20 am
content: One thing I don't like about the DS1054Z is that the serial decoding is done only on what is visible on the screen.And if the screen trace does not start just before the start bit, the decoding fails.This means that if you capture a long string from a serial port you can only decode the beginning of that string.I find that very annoying when debugging a board.

author: markone
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2022, 09:20:24 am
content: Quote from: Karel on November 27, 2022, 09:06:20 amI also own a DS1054Z from awhile, i think it is still a great instrument for the price but some functionality are quite slow for the current standards, among them there are serial decoder and remote control, if I had to make use of these I would opt for another instrument otherwise is still a good purchase.In any case, for serial interface decoding / recording makes much more sense to use a cheap LA with proper SW.

author: RoGeorge
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2022, 09:28:53 am
content: Quote from: markone on November 27, 2022, 09:20:24 amCan you give an example of how slow it is, or what bothers exactly when remote controlling the DS1054Z?Asking because I've tried recently to download the full 24 million ADC samples, and with the proper setup it went from 22 minutes to 22 seconds.

author: Karel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2022, 11:34:45 am
content: 22 seconds for 24 MiB is still laughable. But I guess it's all they can do for that price.And for the price it's a nice hobby scope.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2022, 11:47:15 am
content: Quote from: Karel on November 27, 2022, 09:06:20 amYes, when choosing a DSO for decoding, make sure it does full memory decoding, not just what is on screen. Otherwise you'll suffer when needing to inspect parts of packets to verify timing of the signals.

author: markone
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2022, 02:14:51 pm
content: Quote from: RoGeorge on November 27, 2022, 09:28:53 amTo be honest I never tried to dump raw data, but the interval time that you report seems a lot out of place (to say the least), AFAIK Dsremote is much faster in that.I was instead referring to screen waveforms data retrieve and setting command response in general, among the causes it's kwon that Rigol choose to organize data in 64 bytes block on USB interface while the standard is 512, at the expense of data transfer performance.Talking instead about serial decoder there is a lag in the order of hundreds of milliseconds, that varies with memory depth, horizontal scale and baud rate, often you can see decoded data not aligned with signal trace.But we are talking about an old instrument, it's to be said that Rigol DS1000 and the DS1000Z series were the best instruments in the low cost class, at the time mostly populated with a ton of crap.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2022, 02:38:22 pm
content: Quote from: markone on November 27, 2022, 02:14:51 pmScreen waveform is only 1200 bytes so it's obviously a lot faster than grabbing the full 24Mb.IIRC you can grab the full screen image about 3 times/sec. for remote control/viewingUSB was also found to be much slower than Ethernet, probably for the reason you mention.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2022, 03:13:43 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on November 26, 2022, 02:53:11 pmWe get it. It doesn't decode full memory, for that you need something else.But: "Horses for courses".For decoding a few bytes and looking at signal integrity it works just fine.Using a logic analyzer would have been a complete pain in the ass for coding an I2C interface like I was doing last week.For only $6 extra you can haveboth.

author: Karel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2022, 03:25:31 pm
content: There's a "solution" but it's slow:Enable the serial decoding and set the memory depth to 12mpt.Adjust the timebase so that it captures all the bytes of interest (use a single trigger).Download the 12mpts in the Wave Inspector.Once downloaded, you can zoomin and the serial decoding works over the whole 12 mpts.

author: markone
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2022, 03:25:51 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on November 27, 2022, 02:38:22 pmYes, of course, no need to mention, what I meant was that also simple Screen Waveform reading was slow, so I never dared to dump raw data.Quote from: Fungus on November 27, 2022, 02:38:22 pmI remember even something less, utterly useless for my purpose, in practice I used very little remote features, not that I was pretending more for the price, at the time