Rishi Sunak NHS Robot plan to replace staff - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: MrMobodies
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 22, 2022, 01:37:43 am
content: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2022/11/21/sunak-tells-nhs-embrace-robot-workers-prepares-sack-staff/QuoteSo they want to replace staff with robots.Okay they don't have to pay wages and pension.The staff like nurses from what I read are working really hard and beyond on an already overstretched service. They actually work. I'd expect them to only bring in robots to assist not to replace an already overstretched workforce let alone tried and tested or has it?Actually I see there is one:https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/health-57756988QuoteOn the other hand how much are these robots going to cost in buying them and maintaining them.Doesn't sound right to me cutting staff under a pledge to save money but willing to "buy" electronic substitutes and I don't see anything about the costings yet.https://www.mylondon.news/news/health/london-hospital-robots-costing-18-21282182QuoteSounds like claims to me. I expect the surgeon to be skilled and know how to handle the instruments and how can they just make these claims that it will be more precise, will results in high quality surgery. I remembered when they tried something like this with mesh surgery to speed up surgery times and it did work but with the plastic deteriorating many years later and patients begging to have it removed.Surgeon -> knife -> skin. (touch and feel)toSurgeon -> Joystick -> knife -> skin (no touch and feel)So surgeon has to control not just the knife but the robot handling the knife.Also are they not going to feel anything for other signs as they operate?(I was told they do this for observations correct me if you think I am wrong)If it is used just to "save" money with these claims and I don't trust it.https://www.intuitive.com/en-gb/products-and-services/da-vinci/systemsJust found this:https://www.autoaccident.com/da-vinci-robotic-surgical-system-injuries-and-deaths.htmlQuoteAttached the whole page to image file:What do you think?

author: Benta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 22, 2022, 01:46:13 am
content: Well, you've "Taken Back Control".Good luck.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 22, 2022, 02:02:24 am
content: Going by the government and nhs past history with IT and technology it will take at least 4 times the timescale and cost 7x the projected budget before being quietly scrapped.

author: redkitedesign
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 22, 2022, 02:45:25 am
content: Quote from: MrMobodies on November 22, 2022, 01:37:43 amThere are a few cases where the (partial, haptic feedback is a thing) loss of touch and feel is less important than the advantages of robot assisted surgery:- When the surgery is hyper-specialistic, and the only experienced surgeon is on the other side off the continent- When the robot is used to make microscopic movements, much smaller than a surgeon can make (e.q. eye surgery)Off course, both use cases do not decrease cost or staffing requirement, quite the opposite: Due to the robot making these procedures possible in the first place, extra staffing is needed to care for the patient.Without the robot, the patient would just remain untreated (and perhaps die).

author: MrMobodies
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 22, 2022, 03:05:53 am
content: I don't mind the robot as an optional to assist but not used to save money and substitute staff.https://www.ft.com/content/5230b9c4-fd3a-11e8-b03f-bc62050f3c4eQuotehttps://medcitynews.com/2021/07/hospitals-sue-surgical-robot-maker-saying-it-forced-them-into-restrictive-contracts/QuoteI think all of that time and money should go into training the surgeons to be skilled and experienced on the patients as a first, not allow a robotic company to manipulate and control a hospital. So they are putting the surgeons ability to perform at the discretion of a robot and the company behind it.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 22, 2022, 03:56:21 am
content: Quote from: redkitedesign on November 22, 2022, 02:45:25 amNote that those sorts of telesurgery machines do retain "immediate" haptic feedback, or even amplified! for finer work to balance the mechanical advantage of smaller movements.Not really a robot but does save on travel/down time of specialist surgeons as you say.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 22, 2022, 04:02:12 am
content: This sounds nice.So now getting rid of human workers is going to drive economic growth. That is genius.Meanwhile, children are employed in western countries, and it doesn't seem to bother that many. Does it drive economic growth too? Do robots get us more economic growth than children, or how is it?https://www.reuters.com/world/us/exclusive-hyundai-subsidiary-has-used-child-labor-alabama-factory-2022-07-22/https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/nov/11/nebraska-packers-sanitation-child-labor-animal-slaughter

author: xmris
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 22, 2022, 09:11:58 am
content: I know a guy working at a uni r&d things like robot medicine dispensers, sort of a smart tray on wheels that moves around a hospital and dispense medicines to the patients.The whole story is just about £££££, at the same time they install wireless IV pumps/heart monitors with un-secure menus - oh yeah the last time I was in hospital was fun to check those menus, mainly because the heart monitor's alarm was annoying ;-)

author: M0HZH
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 22, 2022, 12:37:24 pm
content: Quote from: MrMobodies on November 22, 2022, 01:37:43 amHaving had to deal with NHS recently I can tell you they are working far from "really hard" and no one can be bothered to do their job with any sense of urgency even in A&E.What most likely happened is because of Brexit the more hard-working, competent people in the NHS have left to places where they feel more appreciated.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 22, 2022, 01:29:32 pm
content: Quote from: M0HZH on November 22, 2022, 12:37:24 pmAnd yet my experience is the opposite. The A&E staff are overworked and facing burnout. Maybe they don't seem to be "bothered" but the reality is they have a huge case load and not enough time in their shift to do the work assigned. They are quitting in droves because of this, it truly is a crisis right now. You have graphs like this:For Scotland but the pattern is similar across the UK.COVID did a proper number on the NHS, Brexit certainly hasn't helped for sure.

author: snarkysparky
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 22, 2022, 01:35:20 pm
content: A lot of really stupid people overestimate what robots can do. They buy the manufacturers hype, then they buy the systems, then they find all the hidden issues, then they scrap the hardware and beg staff to come back.Rinse and repeat.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 22, 2022, 02:17:45 pm
content: QuoteAll part of the master plan to prove the nhs isn't fit for purpose,best we privatise it

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 22, 2022, 03:05:51 pm
content: IsWas that guy a doctor? How he even knows how hospitals operate

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 22, 2022, 07:51:44 pm
content: Quote from: snarkysparky on November 22, 2022, 01:35:20 pmAnd it's all laid out in the 4th industrial revolution bullshit. They are all following this crap to the letter as though it was the holy bible.

author: AndyBeez
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 22, 2022, 09:54:55 pm
content: I guess us Brits should apologise/apologize to our American compatriots who are thinking, what the feck is a national health service anyway? The answer is, it's like Medicare, but burns a lot more money. The British national health service is a graveyard of huge IT projects that burnt billions on consultants and delivered nothing. That's managment consultants, not medical ones. The notion of using VR, AI and cybernetics does have it's place, such as in the 'virtual OR'. Reality check, a robot still cannot replace the 'hands in guts' dexterity of a surgeon. But this story sure makes a good ten minute sound bite for the UK's rich kid ex-Goldman Sachs banker Prime Minister.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 22, 2022, 10:13:37 pm
content: Quote from: AndyBeez on November 22, 2022, 09:54:55 pmLOL, I think you have no clue how bad US healthcare is. It's spending way more money than NHS, yet there is no free or affordable healthcare at all. It's extremely expensive, including super expensive drugs. Effing insulin costs >$1000 per month, and becomes 10 times cheaper once you cross the border to Canada or Mexico, and it will be exactly the same stuff from the same manufacturer. It's so stupid some people cannot afford it, thus are rationing it or don't use at all and then die. Prime time on TV is full of healthcare insurance ads though. And if you don't have one, pray god you don't ever need to be hospitalized. Not unheard of people going bankrupt and losing their house after visiting a hospital. Not that insurance will necessarily save you. They will probably find some pre-existing condition or your illness will be excluded in a fine print.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 22, 2022, 10:31:20 pm
content: Of course this would have to be corrected for respective cost of living, otherwise the raw figures don't make much sense. But admittedly the about top 10 would have relatively similar cost of living so they are comparable. (The rest, not so much.)You're mentioning one reason for the huge US expenses being the cost of drugs. That's an interesting point - do we actually have more detailed figures for how health expenses are distributed? (Such as cost of drugs, wages of healthcare professionals, cost of infrastructure, etc.)

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 22, 2022, 10:40:47 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on November 22, 2022, 10:31:20 pmThe difference with other largest spenders it that their healthcare is either free or cheap (especially in comparison with US). So while spending much more, US is doing much worse.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 22, 2022, 11:06:53 pm
content: Quote from: AndyBeez on November 22, 2022, 09:54:55 pmYou are talking complete bollocks.Utter, complete bollocks.And while NHS Digital has had it's fair share of bad projects, most of those are historical. The current Digital team is rather good - think the NHS website for instance - or the integration with things like the COVID app. The parts that are rubbish are the bits that are private, like linking with GP surgeries for appointments and the like, but that's a far more difficult problem to square as GP surgeries are run at arms length from the NHS for historical reasons predating the NHS. Just this morning I had to call my GP surgery and got stuck in a loop on the phone system due to their buggy equipment and software... but that's a small private surgery for you.The NHS is far from perfect, but it is a pretty efficient system for the outcomes it provides. The NHS is however going to have to reckon with the aftereffects of COVID, a population which is more unwell (long COVID, other post illness effects, depression/anxiety/etc.) and with staffing shortages, it will be a rough decade. It needs more money, because the population needs treatment. Yet it'll still provide excellent value for money compared to the madness that is the American healthcare system.

author: AndyBeez
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 23, 2022, 10:01:36 am
content: Again, I apologize to our non UK forum members for the rantings over such a parochial subject. Indeed, the US healthcare system is a disaster. I remember an American coworker telling me how much he was spending on health insurance for his family. I thought the figure quoted was per year. Nope, that's per month. Ouch.btw, the UK's NHS Covid tracking app (latest ios and android versions supported only) was a 100% clusterf*k. You'll be able to read more about who burnt the money on this project when the UK Covid Inquiry reports sometime in 2023/24...27?