Keysight is attempting to claw back a batch of equipment sold on eBay - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: openloop
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2019, 11:02:24 pm
content: Context: outback6 is a major, probably the biggest used equipment seller on eBay.Just received an email from them stating:QuoteIP and "trade secret information" is total BS - one of the items listed is a 34401A multimeter.Several items listed. I paid hundreds of dollars for them.They are promising to make me whole, but I'm not sure how should I price repairs and stuff.Am I the only one hit?Any comments or advice?EDIT: Changed origination from Outback to Keysight.

author: bicycleguy
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2019, 11:12:33 pm
content: see:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/keysight-ip-intimidation/msg2148307/#msg2148307

author: openloop
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2019, 11:22:30 pm
content: Thanks!

author: Stray Electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2019, 01:17:40 am
content: Can you post a copy of the letter that you received? You can blank out your name and address if you like. Several of us having gotten these letters but they allclaimfrom a legal firm that claims to be representing HP and not from Outback.IMO this is a SCAM. I think someone got a hold of Outback's sales records and is trying to SCAM the buyers into giving up their equipment. AFIK neither Ebay, PayPal or Outback hasn't contacted any of the buyers, which makes me doubly suspicious.

author: KaneTW
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2019, 01:22:50 am
content: Double check with Keysight using their direct contact info, not the links or info provided in the email. Don't agree to anything with the representing firm.

author: openloop
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2019, 01:29:33 am
content: The letter is exactly the same as posted in "Keysight Scary Letter" thread.And it is from both of them. I.e. a joint letter from Keysight and Outback.I've contacted Outback through a different channel to confirm the whole thing.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2019, 02:32:16 am
content: It does sound very similar to the Indian guy who rings up to say that "There is something wrong with your Computer"Or:-He is from "Telstra's technical centre".Another one is the synthesised voice purporting to come from the Australian Tax Office to say "You are about to be arrested for tax fraud".Then there are the emails from "Apple", "eBay", "PayPal", etc, all wanting me to go to a fake website & give my details.If enough people are getting this crap, & if itisreal, it might be worth an approach to the Media.They are always (at least in Oz), looking for "shock horror" stories of the "little guy"getting pushed around by "Big Business" or Government Departments.OK, they don't really care that much, but if it increases viewer numbers that is all to the good.It is interesting to see the "big guys" backpedal !

author: DaJMasta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2019, 03:18:20 am
content: In the other thread, the Keysight rep on the forum has gotten involved and I believe confirmed it, and if I remember right, Dave knew someone who knew what was up who confirmed that it was legit, though I assume he wasn't permitted to share details.It's easy to determine if it's legitimate or not, though. Contact Keysight through their official channels in regards to the letter, not through a link included or through Outback, then you should at least be able to determine that the claim did indeed originate from them. No need to jump down the conspiracy hole just yet...

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2019, 04:17:38 am
content: Just ignore it, what are they gonna do? Not your problem.

author: Keysight DanielBogdanoff
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 04, 2019, 07:25:26 am
content: Hi! This is 100% legit, not a scam or anything like that.I haven't been cleared to discuss the situation or details. However, I have worked closely with the individuals mentioned in the letter for other projects and can assure you they are good, reasonable people.I don't know what we're offering as compensation (if anything), but knowing how we do things I expect it'll be worth your time to at least have a conversation with them.

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2019, 07:58:40 am
content: Just because it's true that keysight is trying to get test gear back doesn't mean that everyone receiving a letter about it is from a legit source.I could totally see scammers sending out fake letters trying to get people to send test gear to fake keysight address.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2019, 05:31:40 pm
content: I would ignore it either way, you bought it, you own it, not your problem. Also if they want it back that badly I'd suspect there was something interesting and start digging around.

author: Stray Electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2019, 06:09:35 pm
content: Quote from: Keysight DanielBogdanoff on February 04, 2019, 07:25:26 amDaniel, in the other thread you had already confirmed that the individual named in the HP letter was a real individual but you didn't confirm if this letter WAS from HP or if the named individual was truly involved in an effort to reacquire this equipment.Are you now confirming that he is involved in a legitimate effort to reacquire this equipment? Can you say WHY HP hasn't responded yet to those that have responded to the letter?Speaking for myself, I'm not contacting HP or anyone else until I'mconvincedthat this is legitimate and is from HP but so far I've seen nothing that makes me think that it is. If this is a real effort on HP's part then I'll say that they've handled it extremely poorly.

author: eKretz
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2019, 07:26:32 pm
content: In my opinion it's foolish to not at least see what Keysight are offering in terms of compensation. I'm sure they will be reasonable since they would surely like to take care of this with minimal damage to their reputation within the test equipment community. Give them a break guys. Mistakes happen. You've never made any? Would you prefer that the person who could help you rectify YOUR mistake was immediately on the attack or that they were at least receptive to helping you fix it?And Daniel already DID confirm that this was legit in the other thread. And no, he said he can't reveal details.https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/keysight-ip-intimidation/150/

author: vtwin@cox.net
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2019, 07:30:59 pm
content: Master Yoda says "The Drama is strong in this one"

author: glarsson
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2019, 07:38:50 pm
content: This thread explains why it is so difficult to get all recalled cars to dealers for updates.

author: gnavigator1007
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 04, 2019, 07:45:54 pm
content: It doesn't even sound like this was Keysight's mistake. Kinda doubting it was Outback's too.

author: eKretz
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2019, 08:01:32 pm
content: Doesn't matter if it was their mistake if they are signatories to a contract. Especially if they played a part in selecting the disposal contractor.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 05, 2019, 04:24:45 am
content: Quote from: gnavigator1007 on February 04, 2019, 07:45:54 pmI'm very inclined to agree with you. The party at fault is likely a person or organisation not at all mentioned and, through whatever mechanism, Keysight has been brought in to work with Outback in tracking these items down. I suspect Keysight's database on equipment (service, calibration, etc.) made them a logical party to be involved, since this would aid in tracking.While my curiosity might like to know who stuffed up, I think it unlikely we will ever know. It would be good if Daniel can at least indicate the general circumstances (perhaps as I conjectured here) so we can be comfortable in the knowledge that Keysight wasn't involved in the creation of the problem, just in its resolution.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2019, 04:30:12 am
content: why would you even let a big business get involved in your cash flow?unless your selling boosted stinger missiles who gives a fuck??? they make enough money.hey, you never know, the lawyer might get a heart attack if he has to stand up to go to the printer to mail the 10th letter. Attrition these people. If you keep complying to this bullshit you will end up with test equipment needing to be sold on darknet!!Everything in every company is fucking 'confidential'. They wont waste a dime trying to enforce any of it! it costs them money to harass you.if you actually have someone investigate, you sold it on the street out of a van. Its not illegal. You don't have the manpower to take the listing down despite not having the equipment. What are they gonna try to do?You just keep slowing it down to archeological levels.

author: Electro Detective
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2019, 07:47:37 am
content: If you can live without this 'intellectual' laden gearput it back on Ebay with a satisfying reserve price, and MAKE AN OFFER optionthen let any scammers and or legit recallers place their bids, or pump you with an offer you can't refuseThe winner pays up front AND sends their preferred courier to pick the stuff up,after signing a release form at your end to cover any legal comeback BS in the futurePerhaps a quick phone call or visit to your solicitor/lawyer/attorney?may be the go on that, and ADD that $ $ $ $ fee to the Ebay auction too.Do the right thing and buy some new shiny Keysight gear with the proceedsand wish them well with the intellectual gear they got backEveryone Happy and... End Of Story

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 05, 2019, 07:58:16 am
content: You're entitled to your opinion - but I think anyone who takes up that attitude is going to do themselves a disservice.If nothing else, I'd want to hear what was on offer under the mantle of "make whole" before deciding on any action.

author: Electro Detective
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2019, 09:34:50 am
content: Hello...The item wassold at auction, therefore the BUYER can do what they like with it,use it, abuse it, take it apart, reverse engineer, bury it, video the dog or cat p!ssing on it and upload to Youtube, whateverThe scammers and or KS can hassle whoever auctioned it and Ebay about it, and see how far they getIf it's a legit recall for whatever the reason, be it intellectual or dumbass, then MoneyBags Inc. can fork out some Xmas party petty funds to get it backand reimburse OP for wasted time, money, expectations, bidding stress, and general inconvenience,and EEVblog server space here

author: vealmike
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2019, 11:04:41 am
content: I don't get it.Why the militancy? If someone saw you lot holding a gun, mistakenly thought you were aiming at your leg and said "Hey, don't do it!" would your response be "F-You! My foot, my choice! None of your damn business, I'll shoot my all my limbs off if I want to."!!BAM!! "See? You're not the boss of me!" !!BAM!! !!BAM!!Keysight have said this is genuine.Keysight have said they will not discuss the detail on an open forum.Keysight have said they understand this is an inconvenience for the kit owner and that they are prepared to make an offer.Why, for the love of -insert name of preferred deity- would anyone in not talk to Keysight to see what they are prepared to do? It sounds like most of the kit involved is pretty old. They aren't going to be able to replace it with similar aged stuff. The replacement may not be brand new, but it isn't going to be as old as the kit you've got. Keysight also know that they're not going to be able to get you to accept a downgrade."Dear Keysight, Yes I do have that kit. I purchased it at auction. I am using it and it is valuable to me. You say you will "make good", what did you have in mind?"Listen to their offer. You may consider that you are under no obligation to accept, but hearing what they have to say doesn't change that.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 05, 2019, 11:19:15 am
content: Quote from: vealmike on February 05, 2019, 11:04:41 amI have my theories...... but I'd probably attract complaints if I spelled it out.

author: sokoloff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2019, 11:35:52 am
content: Exactly. Factory refurb comparable equipment with a cal cert is a HUGE upgrade as an example and is something Keysight might be in a position to offer. Never hurts to let the other guy say what’s on his mind in a negotiation. Introduce yourself and listen.I don’t know that I’d confirm I had the equipment in question. “I have a lot of equipment I’ve bought at auction and I may have that item but am not sure. Before I go to the time and trouble of 100% confirming, I need to hear what you have in mind.” (Make sure it’s true that you’re not 100% sure. Sure, you have a meter of that model number, but you haven’t crawled around back to double check the serial number and don’t intend to go to that effort unless it’s warranted.)

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2019, 12:39:04 pm
content: Can someone either merge these threads or close this one with.a link to the other one

author: vtwin@cox.net
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2019, 01:22:55 pm
content: Quote from: vealmike on February 05, 2019, 11:04:41 amSome people live for drama.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2019, 06:18:15 pm
content: I don't like drama myself. If I bought something though it's because i wanted it, and once it was mine I wouldn't want to part with it, certainly not so somebody could crush it. If someone wanted it back that badly it would just make me curious what was so special about it, at that point I would certainly dump any sort of memory in the device and back it up somewhere no matter what happened.

author: vtwin@cox.net
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2019, 06:19:39 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on February 05, 2019, 06:18:15 pmI'm certain that is happening in many cases, the moment "intellectual property" is mentioned in the communication

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2019, 08:12:05 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on February 05, 2019, 12:39:04 pmAlready requested that yesterday and gnif spent some time in the thread ......I guess he'll be discussing it with Dave and/or Simon.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2019, 07:35:32 am
content: Quote from: vealmike on February 05, 2019, 11:04:41 amWho's pointing a gun at anybody?Would you react the same if you bought a car and the seller came back and said "I accidentally sold you my grandmother's car and she's very fond of it, I'll give you two cars for one if I can have that one back?"Honest mistakes happen.Quote from: james_s on February 05, 2019, 06:18:15 pmMaybe you'll find out the car belonged to the Mafia and wake up with a horse's head in your bed!(or maybe it's a lot simpler then that in real life)

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2019, 08:10:17 am
content: The most likely scenario (to me) is that the gear has been used by government/military and they have a policy to destroy it all afterwards. This policy wasn't followed and it ended up on eBay.ie. There's nothing interesting in the devices themselves, the only problem is their origin.Why can't Keysight come out and say this? Government/military contracts, that's why.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2019, 08:24:47 am
content: The fact that Keysight does not state what is really behind their request is the annoying bit here, and will make (some) recipients of the letter stubborn. "You have a problem and want my help to solve it? Why don't you explain to me what your problem is?"It must be somethird party rights, rather than Keysight's own intellectual property, which they are concerned about. Either data from prior users, maybe military/government, which are stored inside the instrument (can those older devices even do that?). Or some option which was licensed from a third party, but for certain (geographical?) end markets only?In either case, I would assume that Keysight is obliged to undertake "reasonable efforts" to fix the situation. If those efforts are unsuccessful, my guess is they will let the matter rest, since they have met their obligations towards the third party. I can't see them taking buyers of used equipment to court over this...

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2019, 08:43:29 am
content: Quote from: ebastler on February 06, 2019, 08:24:47 amProbably forbidden by contract.Quote from: ebastler on February 06, 2019, 08:24:47 amIt's probably not even intellectual property, it will be some wasteful, bone-headed "everything must be incinerated afterwards" government policy.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 06, 2019, 09:24:58 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on February 06, 2019, 08:43:29 amYou've said that, I've said that. Others have said that. Why can't people comprehend this?

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2019, 10:29:36 am
content: Quote from: Brumby on February 06, 2019, 09:24:58 amI'm guessing they:a) Watch too many moviesandb)Wantto believe they've got something really valuable in their hands.I'm sure the truth is much more mundane, eg. a contract clause that says "Any devices with internal storage must be incinerated when they reach end-of-life".Keysight will be under obligation to try to recover the devices but they're not allowed to talk about it because the contract was rubber-stamped "Secret" by the MIB.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2019, 10:32:31 am
content: Quote from: Brumby on February 06, 2019, 09:24:58 amYou havespeculated. (And so have I.)They may not be allowed tonamethe third party, and would not have to. But I struggle to imagine a contract which requires them to conjure up smoke and mirrors and talk about "Keysight IP".@OP: Does your spectrum analyzer carry a "Property of Area 51" sticker, by any chance?

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2019, 10:35:54 am
content: Quote from: ebastler on February 06, 2019, 10:32:31 amSure, but count the number of users here who are demanding to know the reason why before they'll even consider Keysight's offer.Maybe a PHB at Keysight decided to invent a "plausible" story(obviously not much of a story-teller...)

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2019, 05:21:58 pm
content: Yea its not mib its a balding lawyer doing the bare minimum to keep his boss off his back. Saul is covering it out of a laundry mat toilet office.

author: Towger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2019, 05:27:16 pm
content: Quote from: coppercone2 on February 06, 2019, 05:21:58 pmHe has a fine head of hair and a passion for fast cars on his Facebook page!

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2019, 06:33:18 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on February 06, 2019, 08:10:17 amAll the more reason to hold onto it and ignore demands to do otherwise.

author: vealmike
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2019, 08:03:22 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on February 06, 2019, 07:35:32 amI think we are in agreement.I was stating that if someone asked the posters here not to shoot themselves in the foot, then they'd pull the trigger just because they don't like people telling them how to act.If I bought a car and someone said they wanted it back and offered me two cars in exchange I would :1/ Engage them in a conversation about the make, model, colour, specification and age of the replacement cars.2/ Immediately start looking for the drug money hidden in the panelling.

author: mrpackethead
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2019, 08:26:14 am
content: Does anyone know what devices we shoudl be buying? I figure Keysight might do the decent thing and swap it out for some new shiney kit.. THey clearly want it back pretty badly. Imagine getting a new 1Ghz Scope for a 70mhz clunker.

author: LapTop006
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 07, 2019, 11:10:14 am
content: Quote from: mrpackethead on February 07, 2019, 08:26:14 amI doubt it's that badly, but still a new 1000x would be a nice backup scope (I'm seriously considering getting one to hack up and make portable).You can be near certain that before sending out the notice to customers they got Outback to pull anything that hadn't sold that might potentially have been part of the lot in question, at least until Keysight had verified the serial numbers.

author: sokoloff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2019, 06:38:35 pm
content: Quote from: mrpackethead on February 07, 2019, 08:26:14 amIf you weren't otherwise already in the market, I think that planning to buy equipment at auction on the off chance that you'll make out with a Keysight swap program indicates that you may have left the path of reason...

author: mrpackethead
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2019, 06:51:20 pm
content: New Approach."Dear Keysight"Our peoplemight be able to helpyour people. Give us a list of the gear you are looking for and you know, there is a like likely hood that we'll find it lurking under the desks or on shelves in gargages, sheds, backrooms of our global membership. In return we'll ask you to increase the prize pool for scope week..

author: Electro Detective
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2019, 11:17:35 pm
content: "Dear Mr. and or Mrs/Ms Kee Sayt,If you want/need/prefer that gear back, please advise the electronics community about it in a courteous straightforward mannerTBH_FWIW no one really cares for the re-acquisition reasons, be they legit, or internal incompetency handballing amongst yourselves,hey that's your baby...but please offer decent incentives to get it backI'm certain there's a bit of nice demo gear hanging around there gathering dust, that may serve as a nice offering,or plain old boring CASH...Otherwise the current legit owners of your disposed of property, may get overly possessive on principle if you bully them via sent corporat correspondence,and the fiasco will stretch on with no apparent closure in sight. That's bad business and negative vibe for everyoneAnd you don't need the competition coming in on this, prepared to offer whatever it takesPlease Consider and Warmest RegardsFrom loyal HP fanEbayer123456667890dubya dubya dubya ManCaveElectronicsServiceAndRepair.com"

author: snoopy
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2019, 12:29:10 am
content: Quote from: Electro Detective on February 05, 2019, 09:34:50 amWhat if it was stolen goods then it is no ones to sell or buy !

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2019, 01:21:41 am
content: I guess it comes down to this: Those people known to have purchased a certain piece of test equipment are receiving very polite letters offering to make a deal. Certainly, there is no obligation on the part of the purchaser to make a deal. They bought the equipment fair and square.However, given the approach taken so far, I would think this offer to make a deal is the 'carrot'. The 'stick' probably involves black helicopters. You can argue all you want about how you purchased it legally, and you did, but if the principals want the equipment back bad enough, you'll be doing your arguing from some kind of detention facility.Go with the flow! See what Keysight has to offer!

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2019, 04:28:17 am
content: I'd rather keep the gear and save it from destruction. I don't typically go around stirring the pot, but I also don't fear my government in the slightest and am not afraid to tell them where to stick it if it comes to that. While I don't exercise them at every possible opportunity, I know my rights and will invoke them as needed, so far it has served me well and I've come out on top every time.

author: Electro Detective
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2019, 04:58:47 am
content: ok I get that, and not short on 'invoke' myself, but why stir the pot?They are not stepping on you or your rights, they are just asking to buy their gear back,casting aside the way they asked, which needs workBesides, if they can afford to fuel black helicoptors and pilots wages,they can afford to shell out the dollars to buy the stuff back, and avoid drama.Most gear, and users, in time, eventually reside in a landfill anyway,why stress what they may, or may not, do with the gear, so far based on forum comments anyway?The less 'imperial entanglements' the better, especially if the payout puts you in front

author: bingo600
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2019, 06:25:20 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on February 08, 2019, 04:28:17 amBrave ..I know a facility where, if you posessed some of their gear , and it by mistake has missed the "shredder"Even bought like this, "they" would pick it up "Claming Nat Sec".And "they" are not someone you should argue with.You would be reimbursed, but make no mistake. They would get their gear