Why does Wicked Lasers refuse to sell to the US? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Ben321
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 20, 2022, 07:12:21 am
content: I think I read somewhere that they say their product is illegal in the US, but to the best of my knowledge there's nothing illegal about their high powered lasers. Their lasers like the Arctic S3 already have all the safety features legally needed required for such lasers. They have a safety interlock, and while they are handheld devices, they are not being marketed as laser pointers. There's nothing illegal about a handheld high powered laser. There's nothing in the US law that states that a laser above a certain power limit must be physically large so as to prevent it from being held in a person's hand. The US law regarding lasers simply says that a laser above a certain power level cannot legally be marketed as a "laser pointer". The real legal issues would occur as a result of how the end users actually used the lasers (like if they pointed them at other people or vehicles), but the manufacturer isn't legally responsible for how their customers use their products, as they have no way to actually make customers use the lasers in a safe manner. All they can do is post warnings on their site about the dangers of such high powered lasers, and yes there are quite a few warnings on their website about their lasers.I don't see any way that their product would inherently be in violation of US law, so I see no legitimate reason for them to refuse to sell to US customers, yet that is exactly what they do. They do refuse to sell to US customers. I hope maybe a company employee/representative from Wicked Lasers is in these forums, and can answer this simple question. Why does your company refuse to sell your high powered lasers to US customers?

author: Stray Electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 20, 2022, 01:20:45 pm
content: Quote from: Ben321 on May 20, 2022, 07:12:21 amI don't know, why don't you contact THEM and ask?

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 20, 2022, 01:36:30 pm
content: Probably an insurance/liability thing - idiot buys laser, someone gets hurt, then the lawyers descend.

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 20, 2022, 09:22:25 pm
content: https://www.laserpointersafety.com/rules-general/rules-US-consumers/rules-US-consumers.htmlQuoteThey do call them "pointers", so would it be legal if they just didn't refer to them as pointers? no idea.

author: taste_tester
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 20, 2022, 11:11:45 pm
content: Because people in the USA can't stop shining lasers at passenger airplanes. Google it if you don't believe me

author: langwadt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 20, 2022, 11:21:57 pm
content: Quote from: thm_w on May 20, 2022, 09:22:25 pmlooks like a pointer, works like a pointer, they show it used like a pointer, it is totally not a pointer at all ...doubt that's going to fly

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 21, 2022, 12:05:11 am
content: Very high power blue lasers with output of several watts are readily available as modules for laser engraving machines. Do note that in addition to a direct reflection being able to instantly blind and a diffuse reflection being uncomfortably bright without proper safety glasses, it's also surprisingly easy to start fires with one.

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 21, 2022, 01:01:05 am
content: Quote from: langwadt on May 20, 2022, 11:21:57 pmThats what OP is claiming.They don't mention "pointer" on the product page:https://www.wickedlasers.com/arcticBut they do call it a pointer here:https://www.wickedlasers.com/lasers-300.htmlI think the idea is to avoid confusion, where you order a "safe" laser pointer, and end up using it for a presentation and burning someones eye out.

author: LaserSteve
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 21, 2022, 02:55:34 am
content: Wicked was public enemy number one when high power . Blue diode lasers became available.RUMOR has it Wicked's owner has a home and other businesses in SoCal that are worth far more then the pointer business generates. Loosing that to a savy prosecuting attorney probably does not appeal to the owner. Civil asset forfeiture is real.Steve

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 21, 2022, 03:11:23 am
content: Are you in fact suggesting that you want a more onerous and restrictive law that makes it illegal to own a laser or laser device capable of emitting a beam more than 0.5 meter from any face of the device of more than 5 mW power?The law against high power laser pointers was aimed at people using such pointers irresponsibly. As you point out it still allows high power devices. But the law was effective in dramatically reducing the flow of such lasers into a variety of peoples hands who were misusing them. It is a remarkable and unusual law in that it seems to have had the desired effect without causing significant complications to people with valid uses for high power lasers. I recently purchased a 100 W laser with no issues. But if I were ignorant or evil enough I could do terrible things with this laser. Don't encourage the nanny state to make the law more restrictive. I am sorry that you can't just go to Ebay or Amazon for your remote burning toy.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2022, 01:10:06 pm
content: Quote from: taste_tester on May 20, 2022, 11:11:45 pmIt’s not just USA, it happens regularly worldwide. Though for the life of me I can’t figure outwhyanyone would do it!

author: Stray Electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2022, 02:42:34 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on June 11, 2022, 01:10:06 pmThe world is FULL of people that do stupid things! As one recent thread in this forum said "Just because you can do something doesn't mean that you should!". But a lot of people can't figure that out for themselves and the government has to step in a make a law to dictate what should be common sense. Then there are always people that get butt hurt about the new law.

author: BrokenYugo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2022, 05:58:59 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on June 11, 2022, 01:10:06 pmGo outside and observe the general public a while, I find traffic works well. Many people simply aren't that considerate, a lot of them will even blame you for their mistake if confronted! I prefer to refer to them as those who flunked kindergarten.I'd assume what happens is they do what everyone with a overclocked laser pointer does, go outside at night and attempt to hit distant objects with the spot, the airplane is just a flashing target in the sky to anybody dumb enough to attempt hitting one

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2022, 06:11:07 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on June 11, 2022, 01:10:06 pmI don't find it surprising at all. A lot of people are simply ignorant, I've been into lasers since the days when a 5mW HeNe was considered "high power" and I had one of the early 1W blue diode lasers I put together. I remember showing it to a friend and commenting that we had to be careful not to ever point it up into the sky when there were any aircraft in the vicinity, he didn't believe me that it was possible to hit an airplane that far away until I showed him online. I think there is a natural human tendency to want to point something at some target, years ago I saw an article about some bar that had painted a little fly in each urinal, apparently it helped significantly to prevent guys from splashing pee all over the place because they'd naturally aim for the fly.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2022, 06:28:31 pm
content: I’ve seen the little urinal flies many times in real life. At least they give you something to look at for a second while you figure out if it’s real or not!I remember reading a similar kind of thing about computer labs: someone found that if younamedeach computer (Huey, Dewey, Louie, etc.) instead ofnumberingthem (LAB01, LAB02, etc.) vandalism and abuse went down!

author: Sal Ammoniac
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2022, 10:43:53 pm
content: There is a perfectly legitimate reason for pointing a laser up at the sky. It's a good way to point out stars, planets, and constellations. I do it all the time, particularly at star parties. I'm very careful, however, to check for planes in the area before I do it.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2022, 09:48:40 am
content: Quote from: Sal Ammoniac on June 15, 2022, 10:43:53 pmJust don't do it on any trips to Switzerland.It's illegal to use laser pointers outdoors here, period!

author: Stray Electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2022, 07:51:01 pm
content: Quote from: Sal Ammoniac on June 15, 2022, 10:43:53 pmWhere are you at? I worked for a U.S. military contractor and we had an outdoor laser range and we had to get clearance from the FAA EVERY time that we used a laser there. That was 30 years ago. They eventually had to move the test range to another state as this area grew and had almost constant flights in the area.

author: LaserSteve
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2022, 04:36:34 pm
content: 21 CFR 1040.1 and several CDRH memos and published guidance for manufacturers statements cover demonstration lasers and handheld. lasers. CDRH is part of FDA and FDAs enforcement strategy for any non-emergency violation is a long, drawn out, process.FDA relies on US Customs to catch the illegal imports. Customs has other priorities and there is no such thing as a laser sniffing dog.The process is complaint driven. It takes an actual incident or serious complaint to get the very small enforcement division of a very small FDA sub-branch to move. Getting a DA involved in on what is especially, essentially, a violation of civil law is tough. FDA policy is not to destroy small business but to aide it if possible by correcting violations in a "good intent" based methodology.Getting "Red Listed" at Customs was not enough to put a crunch in their business.While we're at it, Some Fan Fiction.:A long time ago, Far Far away, in the light of the Redth Star, immune from Rebel Law,A certain marketing team tied one of their product releases to a certain massive marketing franchise without permission. They slso styled their product to look like a certain fictional interplanetary faith based group's handheld "erbas" thingie. That Empire probably struck back with all sorts of private investigation and a force of lawyers, besides their PR team's bleatings. They uncovered US based assets that a lone investigator at a tiny division of a Rebel team did not have the resources to find.That massive Empire's attorneys were more then willing to write memoranda detailing what intelligence they found and sent itvia courier to an overwhelmed Rebel Alliance office in the Maryland moonscape, , no doubt also CCing it to a certain Rebel Alliance General Counsel in the Columbia District. The Rebels could not believe their luck, as their laws had no force in the land of the Redth Star, but now they had a secret asset vent to whack.That Rebel Alliance founded just before 1776 wrote a warning letter, waited for a reply, something or nothing happened, and A Rebel District Attorney finally decided it was worth their time to get involved, guided by the images provided by the civillian empire's political lobbying force and the rebel teamThat Empire, fearing that their name might be tied to an accident or incident, quietly struck back, I guess.End Fan Fiction...Steve

author: jonpaul
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 31, 2022, 02:18:06 pm
content: Bonjour à tous I have been fascinated by lasers since 1960s, and had HeNe, Cd, CO2, diode experience.Wicked Laser site order page listed US, CA, NZ as well as CH as prohibited, but EU, UK are not (yet) banned.Any manufacturer may restrict sales as they like eg due to issues with payment or freight or custom to certain countries or regions.Amazon has dozens of horrible quality Wicked knockoffs for a fraction of the Wicked cost, for sales in US AND that are defective or unreliable Chinese junk.Caution !!!!!!hazards of eye damage by lasers are well known even at 5 mw. So, at 100mw and up, evenA momentary glancing reflection, even from a diffuse surface, can cause permanent eye damage or blindness.Notice that visible lasers may have high IR émissions as well.The American Optical Society, OSHA and laser safety organizations have extensive knowledge and many examples of serious eye damage from non professionnels, discos, teens, careless use of such high power lasers.It is Only a matter of time before more users have accidentally and permanently damaged eyesight or been blinded.Je vous souhaite une bonne dimanche !Be happy and stay safeJonPS...most Chinese lasers goggles are unsafe or useless, I am suggesting professional safety goggles rated for the laser wavelength and power anticipated! Expect to pay $70..500 for such eye protection.

author: NoMoreMagicSmoke
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 31, 2022, 03:15:48 pm
content: Quote from: Ben321 on May 20, 2022, 07:12:21 amThat Arctic S3 you mention is a Class 4 laser which in the USA requires a safety shutter and a keyswitch. Does the Wicked have both of these? If not, it's illegal in the USA as a standalone laser.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2022, 01:06:47 am
content: Quote from: NoMoreMagicSmoke on July 31, 2022, 03:15:48 pmFrom the manual, there's an interlock pin that must be installed for the laser to operate and the power switch is a simple combination lock that requires the correct sequence to turn on.

author: NoMoreMagicSmoke
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2022, 01:27:34 am
content: Quote from: NiHaoMike on August 01, 2022, 01:06:47 amThat's not enough for a class 4 standalone laser in the USA.Fromhttps://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-21/chapter-I/subchapter-J/part-104021 CFR 1040.10(f)(4) Key control. Each laser system classified as a Class IIIb or IV laser product shall incorporate a key-actuated master control. The key shall be removable and the laser shall not be operable when the key is removed.21 CFR 1040.10(f)(5)(ii) Each laser system classified as a Class IIIb or IV laser product shall incorporate an emission indicator which provides a visible or audible signal during emission of accessible laser radiation in excess of the accessible emission limits of Class I, and sufficiently prior to emission of such radiation to allow appropriate action to avoid exposure to the laser radiation.21 CFR 1040.10(f)(6)(i) Each laser system classified as a Class II, III, or IV laser product shall be provided with one or more permanently attached means, other than laser energy source switch(es), electrical supply main connectors, or the key-actuated master control, capable of preventing access by any part of the human body to all laser and collateral radiation in excess of the accessible emission limits of Class I and table VI.And those are just the quick easy ones. I am certain that there are more regulations that are not met.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2022, 01:46:15 am
content: Quote from: NoMoreMagicSmoke on August 01, 2022, 01:27:34 amThe interlock pin fits that definition.QuoteThere are LED indicators that light up before the laser is even enabled and stay on when the laser is operating.QuoteThe combination lock likely would fit that definition as it's not a simple press to enable. There's also a second interlock that can be unscrewed.

author: NoMoreMagicSmoke
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2022, 02:27:13 am
content: Quote from: NiHaoMike on August 01, 2022, 01:46:15 amIf the interlock pin is in fact a non-trivially defeatable key, and there are warning lights that come on sufficiently before the emission is enabled, then they might have the correct safety for sale in the USA.Do they have a connection for a remote interlock as well? Or is the pin the only interlock? The need for a combination lock to turn it on is something specific to Wicked, and I am unaware of any regulations where this would be applicable.Note: 21 CFR 1040.10(f)(6)(i) is a very wordy way of referring to a shutter (or shutter equivalent). Depending on how they wired the laser internally, there are ways to meet this without having an actual physical shutter that blocks the output aperture.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2022, 04:36:47 am
content: Quote from: NoMoreMagicSmoke on August 01, 2022, 02:27:13 amI think it's to make the laser child resistant. It would be easy for a child to insert a key, but a non obvious sequence of button presses would be more difficult to figure out.

author: Berni
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2022, 05:35:40 am
content: These are laws that have been written long ago when making a laser this powerful was a lot more difficult.Since lasers can be very dangerous these regulations are aimed at making sure they are designed to work in a safe way. In the old days such high classes of lasers would typically be huge things with a control panel. This is mostly what this law is about, designing that control panel in a way that someone couldn't easily press a button and turn on the laser by accident. This is especially important for lasers that operate outside of the visible spectrum as the laser might stay switched on without anyone realizing it (hence requirement of indicator). These laws also require warning labels to be placed on it so that you can know what sort of laser you are dealing with before turning it on.This is just in the same way if you build an xray machine it has to have some sensible safety interlocks in place to prevent people from accidentally being irradiated.Now that diode laser technology has progressed so far in the last 20 years such dangerous lasers can now be made handheld where these safety requirements look a bit out of place. None the less these laws is still a good idea because most people who buy these high power handheld lasers get them just for screwing around, often in a dangerous way and in disregard for safety precautions.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 04, 2022, 07:09:00 pm
content: Yes until a few years ago, a class IV laser was generally something like a large frame argon-ion which would require 3 phase power and water cooling. Not something that a person could carry in their pocket and run off batteries.The xray machines I've worked on don't really have any sort of interlock, you switch the machine on and then there is either a handheld pendant, foot pedal or wall mounted button to trigger the exposure. They have an indicator light and an audible beep to indicate an exposure is taking place but I have never seen a lock. They rely on being placed in locations where untrained individuals are not likely to have access and most people have the sense not to play with one.

author: Berni
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2022, 05:20:05 am
content: Quote from: james_s on August 04, 2022, 07:09:00 pmYeah xray machines usually do it by placing the control panel in a separate room (That you want anyway to reduce the amount of exposure the machine operator gets). The xray dose exposed is safe anyway, as long as it makes sure the machine doesn't continuously stay on. Tho the machines still likely have microswitches on access panels leading to the high voltage stuff, since those parts are actually more dangerous and can kill a person in an instant.More intense radiation sources like radiotheraphy machines would have more safety on them since they can be a lot more harmful. There was a case of one model of those machines having a software bug and giving the wrong exposure and resulting in some serious consequences.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 05, 2022, 06:08:03 am
content: Quote from: Berni on August 05, 2022, 05:20:05 amIt was Therac-25, buggy software reused from previous models and hardware interlocks removed. Several people died in result.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 17, 2022, 10:47:45 pm
content: Quote from: Berni on August 05, 2022, 05:20:05 amThey don't have any interlocks. I have a large rotating anode veterinary machine and a smaller dental machine and I have worked on a handful of others of both types, I so far have never seen one with any sort of interlock on the access panels, you could unplug the HV cables from the transformer to the tube head and the machine would quite happily energize the transformer if you push the exposure switch. They rely on the fact that they are not sold to the general public and are typically only accessible to qualified individuals.They DO have protection circuity that prevents over-exposure, typically one side of the transformer primary is switched by a SSR that controls the actual exposure and the other is switched by a mechanical relay. The relay closes, then the SSR fires the exposure then the relay opens. If it detects that there is a problem with either of these it will terminate the exposure.Modern machines are all inverter based, I have not had to service one of those yet.

author: Ben321
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2022, 10:33:31 am
content: Quote from: wraper on August 05, 2022, 06:08:03 amPatients being x-rayed died from overexposure? Like how long were they exposed? Wouldn't the x-ray tech have realized (by the x-ray beam active indicator light remaining on) that the machine was running an exposure for longer than expected, and hit the manual shutoff button to prevent the overexposure from being too severe?

author: Daixiwen
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2022, 02:22:51 pm
content: There is even aWiki pageabout the incident.It was several orders of magnitude over the intended radiation levels and the damage was done almost instantly.

author: DavidAlfa
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2022, 06:53:06 pm
content: There're very good channels at youtube, some recently talked about these kind of incidents, specially Plainly difficult:Also Kyle Hill: