Grayjay - A better way to view videos online - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 18, 2023, 01:52:34 am
content: Louis Rossmann released this moments ago and it's certainly a very interesting concept.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2023, 02:21:23 am
content: This violates YT ToS. It will never be approved for the Play Store, so you will be limited to side-loading weird APKs.This is DOA.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 18, 2023, 05:33:22 am
content: I'm not so sure. Side-loading applications (into Android at least) is painless and is not uncommon among "power users". Of course, there needs to be a level of trust associated with it, which making the codebase open source considerably helps with. There are some people who use their phones entirely without Google Play services installed. I think these are the sorts of people that this application would appeal to the most.Louis Rossmann's target audience has largely been aimed at the technical user, rather than end-user's who would rather just watch TikTok all day.I believe it has merits and I'm sure Rossmann and others have done their homework in terms of any legal issues which might arise.As for Google's terms of service, sure it would prevent it from being listed on the Play store, but who cares? End-users aren't likely to care (or even read) those terms, let alone comply with them.It'll be interesting to see where (if anywhere) this goes.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2023, 05:39:18 am
content: Ok, 3.5 geeks may install it. What is the point? There is a lot of talk about the creators, but creators are not going to benefit from this at all. I may be missing something, of course, but I really don't get it.Also, making code base open is really bad if you are going to encourage side loading. Anyone can build bitcoin miner into it and start distributing a custom APK. And a small spend on google ads will make sure your bad APK is at the top of search results. Obviously it will only matter if this thing becomes popular.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 18, 2023, 05:43:02 am
content: Yep, maybe. Again, something I'm sure they've thought of. How they mitigate that, I don't know.I'm merely saying the concept is interesting and Rossmann isn't the type of person to go into something half-cocked.

author: RoGeorge
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2023, 06:08:25 am
content: Quote from: ataradov on October 18, 2023, 05:39:18 amThese were addressed in the App license. The intent of the license is stated in less than a minute, starting at 11:20 in the video:https://youtu.be/5DePDzfyWkw?t=679you can redistribute modified builds, but you are not allowed to add your own advertising or other forms of malware.About the Grayjay app, I like the idea of subscribing to a creator no matter the platform (or to search on all platforms at once), instead of subscribing to a creator@one_platform_only.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2023, 06:14:45 am
content: Quote from: RoGeorge on October 18, 2023, 06:08:25 amDo you think people distributing malware will care about the license?

author: RoGeorge
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2023, 06:21:43 am
content: Probably they won't care. Just like with any other license agreement, it can be disregarded by some (for software/services), or physical product can be faked entirely.For this app, at least the owners are saying they will actively come after those that infringe the license, while in FOSS, programmers usually don't do that.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2023, 06:26:03 am
content: People doing malware and scams are not in the US. They are not going to go after anyone.All I'm saying is that side loading is a non-starter for mass adoption. Epic tried with Fortnite, it is still a mess.

author: RoGeorge
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2023, 07:10:45 am
content: Quote from: ataradov on October 18, 2023, 06:26:03 amI see your point now, agree with that.At the same time, something has to be done. Social media and alike platforms (with non-audited content) preserve unilateral rights to cancel/remove your account. Usually you can not even ask why.

author: Infraviolet
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2023, 08:56:45 pm
content: Surely the malware question should be irrelevant, people should surely download this from his gitlab or from some site Rossmann owns?The only reason any users of this app would need something not in Rossmann's official version (downloadable from places which can be recognised as owned by Rossmann) is if they wanted to watch videos from a site not already on his list, and as his list seems to cover all the major video hosting sites already that can't leave many. Any video someone wants to watch is surely hosted by a site on that list, or is hosted by an independent website which doesn't operate according to conventional streaming methods anyway (like a blog where someone self-hosts the video files).I really respect the idea he's coming up with, but it sounds like it is only for use on phones? I'd be likely to download it and pay him if there were a version targeted to run on Linux x86 computers.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2023, 09:03:59 pm
content: If it goes past a few geeks, the a typical user will not hunt it down on their site. Their friend or TikTok video will tell them that something called grayjay exists, they will go into google and type "grayjay download". This is the phrase you buy for your malware ad. This is a standard practice. Some people will be diligent, but majority will not care and install it.At the same time majority of people really would not bother enabling APK installation (which comes with a security warning from the OS).And the name is good for this, since currently google shows a bunch of birds, so anything that looks like installable software will be noticeable in the search results.

author: artag
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2023, 09:04:21 pm
content: Quote from: Infraviolet on October 18, 2023, 08:56:45 pmIndeed - the youtube site is dross that does everything you want wrong, presumably because they want to push advertising, not videos. I would welcome a way to find youtube videos that avoided google's choice. But I'm not going to start watching them on a tiny weeny phone screen.update :I see there are downloads for Android on x86,x64, arm and arm64. So I guess that covers Android TVs ? A dedicated Pi ? An Android emulator running on x64 ? Alsohttps://gitlab.futo.org/videostreaming/fcast

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2023, 09:34:27 pm
content: There is an app with this name and logo on the official Android store from "FUTO". Yet this app is not officially advertised by them in any way. Am I to assume this is malware? Or what?This is the same exact issue Fortnite had, as soon as they announced that you have to download APKs, the store got flooded with third-party malware pretending to be Fortnite. Thankfully this was a high profile thing, so Google stepped in and quickly cleaned it all up.

author: artag
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2023, 09:42:33 pm
content: Quote from: ataradov on October 18, 2023, 06:14:45 amHow will they distribute a malware version if google won't offer it and nobody installs APKs ?

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2023, 09:54:25 pm
content: The app does not need to be the same, you can place any app in the appstore and call it anything you want. Just like with the example above. The app with this name is in the appstore. There is no way to tell if this is a legit app.But if they establish that APK is the only way to install and the app becomes super popular, then people will be installing APKs, and it will be a disaster.Also, google won't allow it in a long run when it is actually popular. Right now google would not care. The app does not need to be in the store for long. If it is popular, you will get a lot of downloads before it gets taken down. Then you repeat the process.

author: Veteran68
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2023, 01:25:49 am
content: Quote from: ataradov on October 18, 2023, 09:34:27 pmFuto is the company putting this out. Rossman works for Futo.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2023, 01:28:45 am
content: Quote from: Veteran68 on October 19, 2023, 01:25:49 amAnyone can claim to be anyone on the appstore.This is why it is confusing. Why do they offer to side load APK instead of going to the app store then?

author: JPortici
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2023, 03:39:19 am
content: Quote from: ataradov on October 18, 2023, 02:21:23 amlike vanced?or that old APK of spotify that doesn't play ads? all you need is a member of the group chat to introduce the others and to keep the APK coming

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2023, 03:46:32 am
content: Vanced is dead. ReVanced still exists, but it is just a set of patches and random APKs, which you constantly have to update to unbreak newly broken things. No normal person will do that.While Futo would be fine with a few geeks giving them $10, the whole concept of this approach was to help creators, which is not possible without wide adoption. And stripping and skipping ads hurts those creators in the mean time.

author: JPortici
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2023, 05:43:08 am
content: Quote from: ataradov on October 19, 2023, 03:46:32 amit actually works like this: one person that knows how to make the APK makes the apk and passes it along to their friends, everybody's happy unless they have an iphone.

author: AVGresponding
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2023, 05:57:35 am
content: Quote from: JPortici on October 19, 2023, 05:43:08 amOr they work for Alphabet-Google-YouTube...

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2023, 06:04:28 am
content: If something like this gets traction YT will just send cease and desist letter, just like they did for Vanced. And you can sit in a chair and talk how you are going to fight them all you want, but when this actually happens, they will stop the development.And if YT wants to go thermonuclear, they can start closing accounts of the app users for violating TOS.

author: AVGresponding
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2023, 09:16:36 am
content: That sounds like the sort of solution that Musk would come up with. At that point I'd just stop watching YT completely, though I accept that probably I'd be in the minority there.

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2023, 09:39:38 am
content: I think having the features of downloading and ad blocking pretty much means as soon as it becomes popular (if it becomes popular) YouTube will block it.It will be extremely hard to stay ahead of googles efforts to block it once they decide to do so.Keeping the linux downloader app youtube-dl working it hard enough for the devs and this is infinitely more complex.

author: lezginka_kabardinka
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2023, 01:36:22 pm
content: Quote from: Psi on October 19, 2023, 09:39:38 amYou’re years behind. yt-dip is infinitely better.

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2023, 10:35:52 pm
content: Quote from: lezginka_kabardinka on October 19, 2023, 01:36:22 pmQuite possibly, i've only ever used youtube-dl.

author: RoGeorge
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2023, 11:17:46 pm
content: I've dropped youtube-dl some years ago, because it was speed limited (by Google), while yt-dlp somehow is downloading as fast as the network can. Syntax is about the same as for youtube-dl:Code:yt-dlp -f best --sub-lang en --write-auto-sub --sub-format srt <video-ID-or-playlist-ID>

author: BrianHG
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 02, 2023, 12:43:35 am
content: Who didn't see this coming:Youtube BANS Massive Youtuber Louis Rossmann For Simply Promoting An App Alternative To Youtube!

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 02, 2023, 12:56:14 am
content: I'm sure Louis saw this coming himself. He is on Odysee by the way and probably other streaming platforms.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 02, 2023, 01:17:14 am
content: That "App Alternative" violates YT ToS. If you don't think ToS are fair, it is fine. But what do you expect exactly when you are very publicly promote the app that does it?I'm surprised that app is still in the play store. But I guess at 10K installs over there, it is not setting the world on fire. Although who knows how many installed the APK.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 02, 2023, 02:48:09 am
content: Quote from: ataradov on November 02, 2023, 01:17:14 amWhether the application itself violates the terms of service I think is irrelevant. Merely being smacked for talking about it is pretty piss poor behaviour by Google if I'm honest. What if someone was talking about something that violated Apple's or Microsoft's terms of service? I'm sure Google wouldn't give a crap. If rules are going to be enforced, enforce them equally without bias.It's just another example where content is censored because someone got butt hurt. It also proves the point of why Grayjay is a great idea... follow the content producer, not the platform.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 02, 2023, 02:49:45 am
content: We don't actually know what he was banned for.Why would a platform enforce someone else's ToS? They have no clue, may be person speaking has a separate arrangement. This logic makes no sense.Platforms have full rights to enforce their own ToS though.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 02, 2023, 02:51:15 am
content: Quote from: ataradov on November 02, 2023, 02:49:45 amWhich is even worse. Transparency is important. For Google just to hand out punishments without any reason given isn't a good look.Quote from: ataradov on November 02, 2023, 02:49:45 amYes they absolutely do. But what exactly in Google's terms did Louis actually breach? No one knows. Having terms are meaningless if people can just do whatever they want.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 02, 2023, 02:53:30 am
content: I may be wrong, but I think they give the reason to the person being banned. At least they point out to a specific video. If Louis wants to share the details, he can do that.They don't need to disclose the reason on the video stub for everyone.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 02, 2023, 02:54:38 am
content: Quote from: ataradov on November 02, 2023, 02:53:30 amThat could be right, but I suspect it will be something very generic that doesn't actually explain the real reason. Time will tell. Louis is a pretty open and honest person, I'm sure he'll post a video explaining what happened from his perspective.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 02, 2023, 02:59:33 am
content: The channel seems to be available now.It also may have been a regular DMCA takedown. But overreaction and outrage gets you clicks.And looking at the timeline, it looks like the "ban" lasted at most a couple hours.

author: JoeRoy
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 02, 2023, 03:25:46 am
content: FYI:https://www.reddit.com/r/LinusTechTips/comments/17bk0n6/what_do_we_think_about_the_youtube/

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 02, 2023, 08:13:39 am
content: Quote from: ataradov on November 02, 2023, 02:59:33 amA DMCA takedown for his videos about an open source project ?I hope it was, will be funny to see who did that.

author: newbrain
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 02, 2023, 11:00:24 am
content: Quote from: Psi on November 02, 2023, 08:13:39 amWhat open source project?

author: Veteran68
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 02, 2023, 12:43:14 pm
content: Quote from: ataradov on November 02, 2023, 02:59:33 amI for sure was confused, as I've subscribed to Louis' channel for years, so when I saw this post last night I went straight there to see for myself. His channel was up and operating fine, and he'd just released a new video a few hours prior. Glad to see it was a brief outage.Begs the question: was it an honest mistake or glitch, or was it a veiled warning?Quote from: newbrain on November 02, 2023, 11:00:24 amGrayjay, which is what this thread is about.At least the creators refer to it as OSS. Some will argue it's not truly OSS in the traditional sense of the word. The sourceisfreely available but deviates from the terms of the major open source licenses in that they threaten legal action if you change the source to introduce any kind of adware/malware.

author: newbrain
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 02, 2023, 01:09:54 pm
content: Quote from: Veteran68 on November 02, 2023, 12:43:14 pmMy answer was in the snarky fields between Tonguincheek city and the Passivaggressive river. Forgot to add a proper emoji.The creators can tell whatever they like, but their license makes it clear that you CANNOT modify the source, regardless of the reason.This is not open source, for any reasonable definition of it (and I'm not a zealot in any way), at most can be described as source available.To their credit, they say this might change in the future in the contribution readme.They might have gone Mozilla's way: Firefox is open source, but name and logo are trademarked - so they have a recourse for anyone impersonating them.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 02, 2023, 03:03:02 pm
content: Quote from: Psi on November 02, 2023, 08:13:39 amWhat makes you think it is related to that app at all? Since the app video he posted a lot of other stuff.

author: BrianHG
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 02, 2023, 04:21:22 pm
content: Quote from: Veteran68 on November 02, 2023, 12:43:14 pmNo, 1 more strike and his channel will be down. See the opening post:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/grayjay-a-better-way-to-view-videos-online/msg5119329/#msg5119329You will see the video has been 'removed for violating YT TOS'. 2 videos have been removed. A third strike would bring down his entire channel.

author: Veteran68
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 02, 2023, 06:58:41 pm
content: Quote from: newbrain on November 02, 2023, 01:09:54 pmCool, I suspected it might have been sarcastic but wasn't sure.Quote from: BrianHG on November 02, 2023, 04:21:22 pmI understand how strikes work. But video you posted exclaims that Louis was banned. In CAPITAL LETTERS even.Quote from: BrianHG on November 02, 2023, 12:43:35 amMaybe it was just clickbait, but the BAN is what I was responding to. Getting a strike does not equal a ban. Deleting a channel doesn't necessarily or even usually equal a ban for the creator. If he truly was banned temporarily, that sounds like something that went beyond a strike and deleted video. It was a message (assuming it was intentional and not a mistake or glitch).

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 02, 2023, 07:40:08 pm
content: Well, even in the original announcement video he stated that they are ready to takedowns and are ready to fight them. They are basically inviting the trouble and YT is not obligated to hot anything or anyone.

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 03, 2023, 09:52:07 am
content: Did anyone else get a YouTube popup saying your comment violated YouTube's terms of service?I got two of them ~5 days ago for the first time ever. And I'm fairly sure it relates to two comments I made that had the word Grayjay in them.It's impossible to know for sure, those comments disappeared when Louis video disappeared. but seems quite suspicious though.I think the stance YouTube are taking on Grayjay is treating it more like a 'hacker tool', a tool to download videos and bypass ads.So any mention of it gets stomped on.TheQuartering on Youtube also did a video about Louis's video about Grayjay and within 24 hours his channel had month old videos being removed for seemly odd reasons.Although, that's probably not all that surprising. I would expect the YouTube AI looks closely for connections between "bad" channels. So any link to a channel in bad standing probably does rub off on your channel and lower its standing.

author: Sredni
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 04, 2023, 05:27:20 pm
content: Wow, the mafia has better ethics than YT. 😁

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 04, 2023, 10:33:45 pm
content: Halcyon, thanks.My experience here, as a non-expert was to be thinking; 'Yeah, that might be worth checking out, and had worked that into my recent 'schedule' to investigate.But, nope, first thing I see is (your) linked video got banned.Disappointed, I trudged through a few of the posts, here, especially the statement that 'play store' has TOS to 'protect' their market power.Angry, disappointed, but...so what, that's my problem. I'm mainly thinking just have to wait. Don't use play store, of course, but I'm just waiting; those with a vise-grip on power, or sometimes termed 'strangle-hold' on power. Those of us, passively watching just have to sit and take it, I guess. There's got to be many like me, out there...quietly steaming.But no Google play. That's for certain.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 04, 2023, 11:09:07 pm
content: Why are you steaming? If you don't like play store, get the APK and install it manually.It is really bizarre. You don't want the store so much, yet you want an app to use another google service.

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 05, 2023, 04:56:14 am
content: Uhh, what's that, APK ? I can barely decode your logic, we should be discussing marketplace control, and it's effects.I bought the book, as an owner of an Alcatel phone, which maybe explains what an APK is, on Android. (That's Android for dummies). Part of my point is, not as an individual, but to point out there have got to be many others pissed off, and therefore it's not so personal. Many others, likely, that aren't operating system experts, are simply 'steamed', as well.But if it is just a couple, (or one) individual, then you are right....

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 05, 2023, 05:15:14 am
content: Throw away the book and just google stuff. Or bing it, if you hate google so much.Google Play was created for not "operating system experts". It is a curated store that works for absolute majority of people. For a few geeks that will want to manually install stuff, Google actually lets you do that easily (unlike Apple).Their store has set policies, if you disagree with those policies, you can install one of many other stores (F-Droid, etc).