Yet another SMT PnP advice thread - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: bithead2u
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2016, 11:33:57 am
content: Hello all, first time on the forum. Have enjoyed Dave's videos for years.After 20 years developing embedded handheld products, and another 8 years after that doing pure embedded software, I've decided to go solo and start my own business. This will be a combo affair - online sales of board level products, plus offering hardware design and prototype/short-run mfg services regionally.Online board sales will consist of smallish 4 layer boards with e.g. 8-bit micro, basic analog and digital i/o, etc. I want to do my own boards to minimize costs and run as lean as possible. I figure I will need to do runs of 10-100 of these low tech boards, perhaps 2-3 times a month, tightly coupled to sales levels. For the design services side of the business, as well as new product development for online sales, I want to be able to do small prototype runs of 5-10 boards, some of which will be higher tech e.g. 0.5mm BGA and 0402.I have 10k budgeted for a PnP machine. I would like to support 9x12 panels to maximize throughput. I have a quote for a SmallSMT VP2800D with all 81 feeders for USD$8357 including shipping. Please give me your opinions on this. Know of anything better out there? Primary requirement is for 60+ feeders to minimize changeover effort. All the online products will use the same components as far as possible. CPH isn't that critical but more is certainly better. I have to purchase in early 2017, so I can't consider machines that aren't available right now, like the fabled VP3000 series (plus it's outside of my budget range).How much time will it take to change over between boards? I know, it depends, but for the sake of discussion let's say 20 feeders have to be changed out.Assuming 200 components per panel, about how long to place a panel at medium to high speed? (it's not as simple as count/CPH)Also would like advice on reflow ovens that handle 12x9 panels. I'm looking at the Puhui T960C because it is 400x600mm. It's sold under different badges, I've seen them as cheap as $500 and as high as $1600, not sure what to make of that.Also I have this wacky idea of hooking up a bottle of industrial N2 gas to air purge the oven, controlling the flow with a solenoid valve while monitoring the O2 level with a automotive sensor. Anybody ever try that?Also I've seen some discussion here and there about modifying used 8kv dental machines for board inspection. Any meat to that, or is it just wishful folklore?

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2016, 11:38:26 am
content: Dental X-ray probably doesn't have a small enough spot size for useful BGA inspection, which is about the only reason to x-ray PCBs - optical methods are fine for everything else.And then what do you use as the detector?As regards machines, look at the TVM920, which is now running with OpenPNP

author: bithead2u
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2016, 11:46:54 am
content: Actually I did look at QiHe TVM920 specs a while back, but I'll take a closer look and see about getting a quote. Can you suggest/recommend a particular configuration? Where can you buy the cartridges cheap? How do I figure out what size cartridges to buy and how many? I know what the cartridges are, but that's about it.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2016, 11:52:47 am
content: Quote from: bithead2u on December 26, 2016, 11:46:54 amNo, it's just that now OpenPNP is an option you can be free from the quirks of crappy Chinese software, and modify to suit your own needs if you want. And it uses industry standard Yamaha type feeders.

author: bithead2u
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2016, 11:58:40 am
content: Sadly, I know very little about SMT equipment, other than what I've learned in the past couple of weeks looking around at these machines. Yes, I would prefer to get a machine with Yamaha feeders, but couldn't find solid pricing info. So.....How do I figure out what size feeders to buy and how many, and where can I buy them cheap?

author: Smallsmt
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2016, 01:05:14 pm
content: @mikeQuoteHi Mike to be honest it's really amusing me to read your logic:Something crappy + OpenPNP == Good product (that's your opinion!)Yes some of the Chinese manufacturers don't take too much care about their customers and maybe the dislike to update things because they don't need / understand.I hope that TVM920 become a good product in a year. This is the same development like the NEODEN 4 starting on a very low software quality level when it got released.But our Chinese software is far beyond the capabilities of OpenPNP software and faster too.We have a lot of customers using it for production and don't ask to update to OpenPNP.In 2017 we sell a common usable PNP software covering all the needs Europe customer.

author: dpenev
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2016, 01:32:02 pm
content: Hi Smallstm , can you please be specific what is the machine you can offer now for about $9000 having about 60 feeders included in the price. Can you please list all the advantages of this machine relative to tvm920. Thank you. DimitarSent from my MI NOTE Pro using Tapatalk

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2016, 01:58:56 pm
content: Quote from: Smallsmt on December 26, 2016, 01:05:14 pmNot what I said. From what I've read, it's "something with reasonable hardware and crappy software +OpenPnP = better product."And being open, you can fix any issues or modify it yourself, which is never going to be an option with closed software.QuoteThis is by far the biggest issue with all the Chinese machines, so being able to use open software is likely to have substantial benefitsQuoteI can't comment on yours but I've yet to see any decent software come out of China. Maybe yours is different, I don't know.I was simply pointing out that some Chinese machines may be worth a second look once they're free from the hindrance of poor software.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 26, 2016, 02:15:35 pm
content: Quote from: Smallsmt on December 26, 2016, 01:05:14 pmWondering why do you say this, as it's in your best interest to not happen, ever.

author: Smallsmt
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2016, 02:32:27 pm
content: Quote from: dpenev on December 26, 2016, 01:32:02 pmThe advantages of our machine against TVM920?- Push feeders are always included and offer more feeder on less space than cassette machines.- Our machine design is more stable we use stronger guides and quality bearings.- Software is stable and tested we use different vision settings for every feeder line!- Vacuum check is on every head and can be set in nozzle changer settings or feeder settings we check if part is under the nozzle before placement.- Our head design offer more travel distance on Z axis.- Head Z axis movememt is push and pull instead of using a spring to pull back.- we use a component database to manage the vision and mechanical settings to build group of parts for easy feeder setup.- Vision system is fast and easy to setup- Electronics is modular based on motor driver modules, powers supply and machine controller. You can change single part if a problem occurs.- You don't need to build your own controller interface we offer two DLL for machine control so you are able to add your own software too.- We use 2 bottom cameras using different magnification to improve precision- The nozzle changer helps to use always a fitting nozzle to pick up and place parts.And finally we use our products for pcb assembly too so we know all of your problems.You can choose different machines to solve your problems but there are a lot of things covered. Sometimes little details are important.A cassette feeder machine has it advantages for production runs but it will cost money for each cassette you add.The push feeder machine has a lot of feeder lines for this money.We build up to 120pcb having 168 components in 8 hours including reflow on a VP-2800HP machine using push feeders, vibration feeders and tray.The maintance is another point we use Festo valves to operate the feeder cassettes they are able to switch 12.000.000 times.If money is no problem buy a mid range cassette feeder machine like our VP-3000 or a MV10 or machine from FRITSCH

author: Smallsmt
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2016, 02:36:31 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on December 26, 2016, 02:15:35 pmBecause Qihe is not a bad company and i dislike customers having problems using chinese machines.But i know all of this companies try to do a good job but are on different quality levels!

author: dpenev
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2016, 06:22:51 pm
content: Hi Smallsmt,Thank you very much for the detailed feature list!I am actually plan to purchase TVM920 and use it with OpenPnP, so your information appears pretty important to meand I plan to dig a bit more in it.QuoteAs far as I understand as a replacement of TVM920 you suggest VP-2800HP?VP-2800HP supports 81 8mm Feeders vs. 56 on TVM920. So VP-2800HP is a bit bigger machine.Can you confirm that VP-2800HP with the feeder set costs $9000?Is it available now for purchasing? I want we compare apple with apple-QuoteMany people on this forum seems to like the Yamaha CL type feeders used in TVM920.Looking at the picture of VP-2800HP from your web site I think that the feeders you use are much simplerand logically more space economical.Can someone having experience comment if the feeders in VP-2800HP are trouble free?-QuoteGood to know that, thanks.-QuoteAs far as I know OpenPnP can set a different vision settings per feeder. Can someone confirm/reject?-QuoteNoted, having nozzle changer is a strong plus.I think OpenPnP supports nozzle pressure check. Can TVM920 have this ?-QuoteAs far as I saw both machines have 15mm Z axis travel, correct?-QuoteNoted.-QuoteYeah this looks nice to me. Does OpenPnP support components library?-QuoteOpenPnP uses OpenCV which gives some power to people to extend the current OpenPnP vision.Do you implement the vision from scratch or you use 3rd party vision library?-QuoteThanks good to know.-QuoteCan you elaborate a bit how one can extend the current VP-2800HP software features?-QuoteCan your machine place 0201 size components? As per the people TVM920 can place 0402 using one bottom camera.-QuoteYes this is the best benefit VP-2800HP has over TVM920 from my view pointQuoteThanksQuoteCan some of the TVM920 owner comment about the valves used there?In order to be fair in my message I want to mention that TVM920 is a 4 heads machine which may bring some speed advantages.QuoteMy particular budget is around $10KThank you Smallstm for the provided information.Dimitar

author: bithead2u
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2016, 07:23:37 pm
content: This thread has been dragged off topic. Reposting my question to bring it back ...hopefully.I would actually prefer to get a machine with Yamaha feeders and servo screws, but can't afford to wait around on vp3000 plus the pricing is a little too high for my budget. Plus I don't want to be a early adopter guinea pig.So..... can somebody help me figure out what size feeders to buy for the Qihe unit, and how many, and where can I buy them cheapest?Also want to know more about the CHMT560P4.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2016, 07:28:42 pm
content: Quote from: bithead2u on December 26, 2016, 07:23:37 pmThat will depend entirely on your needs - you need to look at BOMs of typical product ( after optimising of course) and work out what you need

author: thommo
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2016, 07:54:56 pm
content: Hi bithead2u,There are many Chinese suppliers of Yamaha CL feeders.Because you are also intending purchasing a machine (such as the TVM920), I recommend you purchase the feeders from them also.On 1or2 of the sizes QiHe are a little more expensive than the next cheapest option, and on other sizes they are less.Either way, you will not IMO ever regret spending a bit more now and going with an independent feeder system like the Yamaha CLs - these, and similar models from other manufacturers, have been the backbone of SMT for years, and for good reason.Either way, you'll be dealing with a single freight movement and a single set of customs and import documentation.Like Mikeselectricstuff said, you next move is to calculate what you estimate your size requirements are based on BOMs you've created and the component manufacture's packaging/reel sizes.Cheers - PeterQuote from: bithead2u on December 26, 2016, 07:23:37 pm

author: mrpackethead
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2016, 08:35:41 pm
content: And well worth remembering that not all parts have to be on feeders.. If you've got a part where you only need to place 1 per board, you can sometimes use cut tape or place IC's in trays. Those are all valid options as well.

author: bithead2u
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2016, 09:13:21 pm
content: Some good points, but mostly stating the obvious. Don't have BOMs yet, sorry. Working out the numbers before I pull the trigger and dive into it.Now back to the question at hand. I've googled for documentation on Yamaha feeders and not found anything trustworthy or useful.Is there a tech ref manual (pdf) listing each type/size and mechanical dims, recommended tape formats, etc?

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2016, 09:35:15 pm
content: Feeder sizes are completely standard as they match standard tape widths8mm - most passives (up to about 1210), SOT23s etc.12mm - larger diodes, 1812 passives, inductors, SO8 and similar sized ICs16mm - SO14/16 and similar sized connectors, inductors etc.24mm - larger SOICs, connectorsThere are larger ones but much less common - larger QFPs, long FFC connectors etc.You will definitely need 8,12 and 16mm, and maybe a 24mm depending on what parts you typically use.

author: bithead2u
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2016, 09:41:19 pm
content: Thanks Mike, that's the kind of detail I was looking for.....more, please?

author: mrpackethead
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2016, 10:48:24 pm
content: the wider feeders also cost more.The CL feeders though work with the standard tape sizes that parts come on. Forutnatly it is a standard! 8/12/16mm are the most common you'll find, but then you start getting bigger parts in 24mm tape. I have parts that are in bigger than 24mm ( 48mm and 60mm ), but for those i just lay down cut tape..Some times i end up placeing parts by hand.. I have a very large SMT inductor for example, that is just way too tricky to Automatically PNP, its nearly 30g.

author: Smallsmt
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2016, 10:51:45 pm
content: QuoteVP-2800HP machine having linear guides, spindles and a closed loop servo system. They are far ahead of the TVM920 mechanics.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 26, 2016, 11:45:37 pm
content: There aretwotypes of 8mm Yamaha CL feeders AFAIK. One for <=0402, another for everything larger. Guess because 0402 and smaller have 2x more parts per same tape length.EDIT: seems actually there are at least 3 types of 8mm feeders, separate feeder types for 0402 and 0201.

author: mrpackethead
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2016, 11:47:16 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on December 26, 2016, 11:45:37 pmYes, you can get them where they advance 2mm per acuation, or 4mm. 0402 are often ( not always ) at 2mm pitch..

author: glenenglish
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2016, 01:16:08 am
content: I recently bought about 6k of Yamaha feeders and stuff from Kingsun. These supplement my existing CL feeder cache,While I could have purchased directly from Qihe when I bought my TVM920, and saved a bit of money on freight and clearing, I chose to buy from the other vendor in order to cultivate a long term relationship.It sees though, from all the Chinese vendors selling CL feeders, they are all the same ... So it probably does not matter who you buy them from, just buy from whoever is the best to deal with.There are also small variations between the CL feeders for large and small reels, 'whale tail' etc...ANDas forQuoteWell , sure, I agree Michael but the VP-2800HP is not sub USD6900, is it...... TVM920 is closed loop motor, though.

author: mrpackethead
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2016, 01:48:41 am
content: QuoteWell , sure, I agree Michael but the VP-2800HP is not sub USD6900, is it......The other thing.. There seems to be a Lot of happy QiHe customers here, but still waiting to get any real reviews of smallSMT stuff.Glen, you can get An 'auto-smt' machine that seems curiously the same for about that though.

author: Spikee
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2016, 02:50:27 am
content: It would be relatively easy to retro-fit the TVM 920 with linear guides if that is your big issue. But i don't think that there is such a difference.I'm kinda surprised that they did not do it out of the factory since these are so cheap here in china.The DIY machine that I have designed (and am building now) has 60 yamaha CL feeders , dual pnp head, linear guides HIWIN on all axes.Closed loop stepper motors, single or dual bottom vision camera (industrial), single industrial down looking camera.I'm waiting on the final custom milled and anodized parts now. 9mm belt drive 2GT ~370 x740 mm work space, 60-70Kg weight. Bom (with custom milling and anodizing) <3k (excl feeders of course)anyway ... for 0201 in decent quantities with high yield you need a very expensive machine. and unless you use many layers in your pcb design and have fancy features like via's that go halfway trough the board it is not worth it in my opinion.For <10K TVM920 pretty much is the only decent option at this moment. with four nozzles you don't have to worry about (automatic) tool change. Just keep the nozzles you need to use on the head.The machine is probably much faster than the rest of your process can handle. So don't focust too much on that.There are some china pnp with yamaha feeders and linear guides + ballscrews. But the international support is 0.I would not risk that.

author: bithead2u
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2016, 05:20:46 am
content: machine pr0n - Charmhigh CHMT560P4 , 60 CL feeders, 4 heads. Anybody have info on this?https://youtu.be/kXWaDEFIRSE

author: bithead2u
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2016, 05:27:00 am
content: Charmhigh CHMT-T560P4 pick and place machine ---- 4 heads with 60pcs Yamaha pneumatic feedersXYZ Axis travel 600mm(X)*630mm(Y)*20mm(H)PCB max size 400mm(L)×270mm(W)(YESSS!!! ACCEPTS 9x12 panels!! )Mounting speed Without vision:8000cph; With Vision:5500cph(fkyeah!)Precision ±0.025mmVision detection Double camera (up & down) support max size of IC:22*22mm

author: Spikee
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2016, 06:50:02 am
content: It also has zero international support. At least I could not get any response from them for an inquiry.https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?spm=a230r.1.14.1.HkjHMb&id=542482634927&ns=1&abbucket=6#detailI find that the mechanics look kinda shitty for that money. But if it works than it will probably work pretty well.But if you have problems you are probably fucked and this becomes an expensive paperweight.In the general PNP thread there is someone with a 530P4 and they told about their experience with it.

author: bithead2u
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2016, 07:05:50 am
content: Link please?Here is my positive experience so far: i requested a quote earlier today and they responded within 1 hour. Bonus, the machine shipsfrom stockin 1-2 days (not 3-4 weeks). The quoted price was pretty much identical to that of the SmallSMT VP-2800HP and TVM920 with similar CL feeders. But, YMMV.

author: bithead2u
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2016, 07:18:32 am
content: I believe this is the link to the "f*cked"-ness you speak of. The guy said they got quick firmware fixes from the mfr, had already placed 1M parts on the first machine, and were planning to buy a 2nd machine. Doesn't sound like a paperweight to me.https://www.eevblog.com/forum/manufacture/desktop-pick-and-place-overview/msg1086257/#msg1086257

author: thommo
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2016, 07:34:45 am
content: I'm not certain what you're comparing this offer to @bithead2u [stock vs 3-4 weeks], but if it happens to be theTVM920then I'd humbly suggest you look more carefully at the specs and build of the 2 machines. Because, IMO you are not comparing Apples with Apples. Of course, if you've already made up your mind, then good luck with the new purchase and welcome to the family of PnP owners.Cheers - Peter

author: Spikee
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2016, 07:37:42 am
content: the smallest they place is 0603 and sot363.What I said is that these machines can work well or be really shit. It really depends on your usage.

author: mrpackethead
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2016, 09:04:51 am
content: 'Auto-SMT' is another option that you could considerhttp://www.robotdigg.com/product/1022/Dispensing-placement-machineor;https://world.taobao.com/item/534444534872.htm?fromSite=main&spm=a1z10.5-c.w4002-2189914904.27.pcgpUN

author: Smallsmt
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2016, 09:22:01 am
content: Andrew it's useless to say they all can sell to chinese market, have chinese support, limited warranty....By the way you are a satisfied TVM920 customer could you show us a working video please?

author: mrpackethead
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2016, 09:24:47 am
content: Quote from: Smallsmt on December 27, 2016, 09:22:01 amWill your machines support running open-pnp or are you going to make your software opensource

author: mrpackethead
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2016, 09:30:07 am
content: Quote from: Smallsmt on December 27, 2016, 09:22:01 amQuoteNo, i am not the owner of a TVM920. Never said i was.

author: bithead2u
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2016, 10:07:02 am
content: I put up a poll, please vote.

author: Smallsmt
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2016, 10:07:20 am
content: Quote from: mrpackethead on December 27, 2016, 09:24:47 amAndrew you can use OpenPNP if you like we have a Windows and Linux DLL for our V1 an V2 machines to do the interface to external software.It should be easy to adopt but we don't need to do this job for ourselves.Our Visionplacer V3 software will never become Open Source but we have an SDK to add any machine on the market to our PNP Software.The Hardware Layer is accessed using a DLL interface and this will become Open Source when we release the software.We want to sell the software, electronic modules, and feeder blocks to customer who want to build their own PNP machine or retrofit and old machine next year.

author: bithead2u
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2016, 04:43:21 am
content: TL;DR - sorry everyone, I just can't swing the ~$13k USD for a PnP right now.The cost of the TVM920 is equivalent to 6 months' base expenses, so it's a big deal for me. With no consulting clients lined up yet, I decided it is better to play it safe and conserve startup cash. Once I am running and in the black I can revisit.So, in order to have *something* to work with ASAP, and minimize the cash outlay, I've decided to do an OpenBuilds machine. BOM is only about $1k including vision. I'll open a new thread on that topic.

author: cmantunes
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2016, 11:22:42 pm
content: For those interested, I created a thread for the CHMT560P4 some time ago, here:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/manufacture/charmhigh-560p4-pick-and-place/I am currently still using the CHMT36 but plan on upgrading in 2017. As of right now, the CHMT560P4 is the one I'm leaning towards the most. BTW, I've never had any trouble getting a response from my Charmhigh rep, Kimi Liu <kimi@charmhigh-tech.com>.