Torque Limiting Drivers - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Dawn
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2013, 06:41:01 am
content: This seems to be less an issue today as it was 30 years ago. But techs were generally expected to provide their own torque limiting screw/socket drivers in service. Production was another matter with preset tools that were callibrated at regular intervals for a specific purpose. The 1/4" hex bit pretty much revolutionalized this segement. Prior to that, it was either a 1/4" drive male socket or adjustable collet on these tools. In RF, these were necessary for stud mounted substates to keep them within factory spec or expect warranty coverage over a busted stud or flange that usually required national standards traceable paper behind the tool to be submitted for the request.Nowadays there are many cheaper alternatives with many drivers selling between 50-100 usd based on the CDI/Lindstrom mechanism that's nearly a third of the price of the traditional stateside Utica, Mountz, or Sturtevant and Japanese Tonichi designs.Do any of you use these or have any opinions on the current state of models?

author: PedroDaGr8
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2013, 07:05:50 pm
content: You mean like one of these?https://www.eevblog.com/forum/index.php?topic=20496.0Sent from my EVO using Tapatalk

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2013, 07:53:44 pm
content: Sadly, I don't use any of the newer designs (mine is an Utica TS-35 <NOS from eBay ~5 - 6 years ago for less money than a new Lindstrom/CDI or Wiha>).I suspect the newer products would be just fine though, as the design has been around awhile. Don't recall anything that says they fall apart in a few years or can't be recalibrated after some short-ish period of time anyway.

author: Dawn
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2013, 10:09:30 pm
content: That one in the other post says Proto on it, but sure looks like the pre-CDI version of Snap-on's I remember from years ago.I wonder about the newer ones primarly for calibration accuracy and if the mechanisms are as delicate as the older types and if they need occasional repair to maintain spec or worth the cost.I too have Uticas, old ones in all three ranges that I've owned for around 30 years. I used the red one; 0-30 ft/lbs the most, but from time to time wound up having to pay a repair bill along with the calibration often for a spring when it wouldn't meet spec limits. I always returned mine to the lowest postion.The price of a cal and certification alone even years ago approaches the cost of some of the lower to mid end ones now. I suppose it's a difference of good enough vs dead on and traceable to a standard. Even back years ago, these drivers were over $100 and now sell for almost or more then 3 times that, so the occasional repair was worth it.

author: Carrington
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2013, 10:43:24 pm
content: I have a RTD120CN [120-20][1.2 to 0.2 Nm] and a RTD30CN [30-4][0.3 to 0.04 Nm], and no complaints. They are extremely robust and accurate.http://www.tohnichi.com/

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2013, 04:50:21 am
content: Quote from: Dawn on December 22, 2013, 10:09:30 pmAre your existing ones broken and/or out of spec (cal required for intended use)?Seems CDI prices are all over the place (seeing ~$125 - $300 new). Not sure if they're more reliable/can take a heavier beating than an Utica, or hold their calibration longer. I don't expect they're much different though, given the relative space to fit the internal mechanisms (i.e. difficult to over-size components for reliability).Resetting to zero when done was how I was taught to do it as well.Wiha looks interesting to me, but I've never had access to one (do require a tool to adjust). Less expensive though, as are the calibration fees based onEUR pricing<.pdf> (30EUR to cal the linked Wiha), so worth a look IMHO (i.e.Wiha 28506goes for $118 at KCTool.com <0 - 50 in-lbs model>).Wera's 7400 series can be had for a bit less ~$93 (also @ KCToolco), if they have a model that fits your needs.Spec wise, they all seem to be rated at +/- 6%, regardless of brand/mechanism.

author: Frost
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2013, 01:19:51 pm
content: Quote from: nanofrog on December 23, 2013, 04:50:21 amI own two TorqueVario-S from Wiha.A smaler one that ranges from 0.4-1Nm and a lager one from 2-8Nmwhich I use mainly for electrical installation like RCDs, MCBs or Terminal Blocks.They are both Made in Germany and very reliable.Now they also offer a special VDE version which is 1000V insulatedand better for installation purposes but at the time I bought the driversthe VDE version did not exist.But in the near future I will definitely go for the new Wiha iTorque.It is a digitally controlled mechatronic torque screwdriver,so you don't need the setting tool any more, because the torqueis adjusted with a small ring at the end of the driver handle.At the moment it is the absolute Uebertool the companyfrom the Black Forest offers:

author: Dawn
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2013, 02:03:03 pm
content: @Nanofrog:I'm semi-retired now after 35+ years working in commercial and marine RF for most of my career. I have an inventory of mostly very old tools that I've kept maintained either by repair or self sharpening, but after all these years, most are pretty worn and I'm updating my tools for my home shop. I still do work on occasion for other shops that don't have their own component level service and still do work for some long term clients.Going into this trade in the late 60's and early 70's, I pretty much built my tools like most techs from Xcellite and tools available from trade sources catering to the industry. Utica was ubiquitous as the torque divers from the get go when power transistors were taking over from vacuum tubes and hybrid designs by the latter 70's over most other available TLS's. There were several others I mentioned above, but depending on where you worked and dealership warranty requirements, NIST paper was required anywhere from 90 day to 1 year intervals primarly as a CYA for warranty claims. Like the other post's analogy with carbon fiber, you couldn't accurately "feel" a snugged nut on a rf transistor stud on ceramic or BEO substrates. Rework on strip line boards was a dicey deal with expensive components. It wasn't uncommon to snug down a reworked board and bust a stud on one of the devices even at recommended torque. Often dealerships would receive credit in the form of an entire new deck or replacements and bench labor credits providing paperwork submitted included an in-cal document.My question is sort of rhetorical. Uticas both adjustable and preset could be taken to most electronic cal labs that handled test equipment and papered and/or repaired on the spot since they were pretty much the defacto standard. Other brands could be papered, but the repairs often meant sending it to the manufactuer rather then a field repair or upgrade. There were probably other test labs that catered to mechanical trades that could handle others, but generally the electronics trade favored particular brands like any other trade unlike today with the exception of maybe the mechanical trades that still value Snap-on and MAC as symbols. That's no longer an issue as there are many manufacturers of precision tools available through electronic supply vendors.I'm pretty much ditching most of my old Xcellite as the quality has been long surpassed by other companies and the tools are very old. I just invested in a set of Vessel screwdrivers that have precision that leaves's Xcellite in the dust and the comparison would be analogous to what craftsman was to xcellite 30 years ago. Same goes for most of my cutters and pliers that were primarly xcellite, hunter, and Diamond. The last two were considered high end years ago and I've kept them sharpened, but sadly they've seen better years.The Uticas now look haggard. UV light from work stations have faded them, Knurling and finish have been badly damaged by cal labs prying up old labels and then of course is the years of repair and cal investment that in the case of the ts-30 probably have exceeded the current retail cost by a factor of two over the years. They're still good and last paper on all of the was in the 90's. Times have changed. Flange mounted modules pretty much dominate the landscape and the rare open architecture decks had migrated to flange mounted devices in most cases by the early 90's.I've just came to the point that I'm still taking on work and now this is less an issue about in-cal traceable drivers. The Uticas needed occasional spring or slip clutch rebuilds. It wasn't uncommon for a tool that was rarely used like the ts-35 to fail a multi point spec limit test just sitting in my tool case and need a new spring even when you followed procedure for reducing spring tension.There's many available tools both new and used that would probably be a better choice nowadays rather then invest more into these. Utica was very behind the curve adopting hex bits and rather then use industry standard holders, insisted on some very odd combinations of either two piece holders with an 0 ring followed by a collet/chuck type holder. I had my TS-100 updated to the two piece holder in the mid 80's, the ts-30 still retains the old male 1/4" socket holder and the TS-35 is a much later acquisition with the chuck/collet. Hex bits are near universal nowadays and Utica still retains the chuck in current models that's essentially obsolete by 20 years.I'm just looking at the market now for something newer with the hopes that the mechanisms aren't as delicate and need frequent service. Uticas new still command prices in the $200-$300 USD range while most others are half to a third. While the necessity of NIST trace is no longer an issue, I question purchasing any of these newer low priced units based on the CDI type mechanism. What if any service is available and if they are as volatile as the Uticas. Like the above poster mentioned, you can buy NOS or like new Uticas at very low prices on E-bay from what I've seen seen that are well under the price of the better quality rotary end types. I know what to expect from the older types, I have no clue about the newer ones and the reason I brought this into discussion.

author: robrenz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2013, 02:30:00 pm
content: I personally prefer the "non click style" torque screw driver that are a simple torsional torque bar style. The chances of them getting out of cal when used carefully is very low since there are no moving parts, just a torque rod. Good ones have stops that prevent the torque rod from being over stressed.

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2013, 10:13:03 pm
content: Quote from: Frost on December 23, 2013, 01:19:51 pmSeen ESD compliant versions as well.BTW, can you comment on how delicate/robust they are to helpDawnout?Quote from: Frost on December 23, 2013, 01:19:51 pmI've seen the literature on these, but they cost a small mint (MSRP ~$500USD here, on sale for $325USD).More than whatDawnis willing to pay I suspect, so I didn't mention it.Quote from: Dawn on December 23, 2013, 02:03:03 pmThanks for the details.Just trying to understand your specific needs, particularly on having to get it recalibrated & repaired on both a cost & turn-around time.BTW, I envy you're ability to keep stuff going as long as possible (resharpening, self-repaired, ... sorts of skills).Quote from: Dawn on December 23, 2013, 02:03:03 pmGrew up hearing about Xcellite back in the '80's as well from those who'd try and help teach me about electronics.Quote from: Dawn on December 23, 2013, 02:03:03 pmAs per calibration & repair, it seems you have options other than sending it back in the case of Wiha or Wera (Micro Precision Calibrationfor example). No idea on cost, but might be worth a call or email. CDI likely isn't that different (suspect even more places would be able to handle this brand).Quote from: Dawn on December 23, 2013, 02:03:03 pmUnderstandable. There are better options around, particularly when looking at reduced quality of some of the older brands that were snatched up by giants such as Cooper.Most of my screwdrivers at this point are Wiha, cutters are Tronex, Lindstrom (not what they used to be either), Swanstrom, and Erem. Pliers are Schmitz. Tweezers are Ideal-Tek. Only paid retail on the Schmitz, which offer a lot of value (i.e. bit under $30 per pair shipped from Germany FWIW; they make the yellow ESD grip electronics pliers sold by NWS for example).Quote from: Dawn on December 23, 2013, 02:03:03 pmIf in your position, I'd be asking the same questions.Unfortunately, I haven't had my hands on any of these to know.

author: Dawn
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2013, 01:39:09 am
content: Thanks for the kind words Nanofrog. Squaring blades and sharpening tools is more of a matter of economy when you start out and have to make due and becomes a good habit. It also helps having a dad who was trained as a tool and die maker/machinist and gunsmith in the Army.I got searching around today and followed up the bicycle tool path to see what's new. The other post got me thinking about the similar problems working with carbon fiber and came across miniature 1/4" drive digital torque adapters that look like the larger 1/2" and 3/8" type you see on E-bay, but cost a little more. Range of 2-22 foot-lbs stores several readings and gives approaching indication of the preset value. Sounds like a possible tool to vice and use for DIY calibration or checking spec if you don't need paperwork. Thought I'd run this by all of you. That range pretty much covers useful ranges for most screwdriver and light torquing needed for hobby/electronic service and the price is reasonable.http://www.bikemaster.com/torque_adapter.htmlhttps://www.denniskirk.com/dk/pdf/owners/28/dkm283926.pdfThis model sell under several names including Vigor across the pond. This version is the cheapest for about $52 on Amazon with free shipping. There's a couple of places offering a different looking model in the UK with similar specs.