Analog electronics were abandoned too quickly/enthusiastically - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Fried Chicken
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 14, 2025, 04:33:21 pm
content: I'm of the "digital" generation; 90s kid, so I've touched some of the analog stuff, but pretty much all development i've been privy to happened in the context of digitization.VHS --> DVDFilm Project --> Digital ProjectionFilm photography --> CMOS/CCDHome phone --> Cell PhoneVinyl --> CDAnalog multimeter --> DMMAnalog scope --> digital scopeBook --> e-readerNotebooks/pads -- > SmartphoneAnalog clocks --> digital clocksI mean fundamentally it's a tradeoff of time for resolution, right?Well people really underestimate how fast the human brain works... and the inception of all the digital replacements mirrored the functionality of their analog counterparts, but after digital succeeded in displacing analo.... and people forgot how fast analog stuff actually is.... the digital stuff has gotten slow like balls..MAN I REALLY LIKE ANALOG, and thatin the real world. I am so fast with my analog o-scope. It's like 5 seconds from 0 to signal, and I can go *click click click click* and boom I have my answer.Same with the multimeter: I had my digital multimeter that I really like, but there was some transient signal I wanted to catch or something. I dusted off an old analog scope and BOOM went to town. Even just checking if there's voltage: if you tap an analog meter onto a voltage source, the speed of the rise will get you a general idea of what you're dealing with.And then there's... for lack of a better word the "feel", or the "context" of analog. Not everything needs to be quantitative. I was testing my amplifier and wanted to rise the frequency just to see how it would respond. Spin the dial and boom: a perfect beautiful sweep.There's a greater context here, explored in this video:Where how we think about things fundamentally changes with an analog vs digital (or should I say relative vs quantitative) way.But anyway, idk, I think we threw the baby out with the bathwater on analog devices... and it's a bit of an oversimplification to reduce it down to: analog vs digital. CD's are technically digital but done in an "analog" sort of way. Digital does offer a ridiculous amount of "Features", but their reliability can be questionable, and their usefulness sparse. I've also found an experienced operator with a quality simple tool can work a lot faster and do a lot more than someone with some fancy thing that does it all. (I'll grab my wrench before I grab my brushless, multi-speed, torque-controlled impact driver b/c sometimes the wrench is just faster). I think someone when interviewed about the apollo moon missions, and what made them possible, exclaimed: analog electronics!Anyway; not sure what I'm really trying to say here except that I, who came to being as the world leapfrogged everything to digital,reallylike analog things, and maybe we've embraced digital everything a little too quickly.

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 14, 2025, 04:59:43 pm
content: In the world of processing it might make a comeback. I have read about the usage of analog multiplication in AI to improve it speed wise. No idea what the status is on it.Analog computers still exist.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Analog_computer

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 14, 2025, 05:26:22 pm
content: I regret that analog computers went away just as analog IC op-amp technology got really good and affordable.Has anyone tried large-scale parallel analog computation?I have posted elsewhere seeing an historic photograph (ca. 1950) in a Boeing house newsletter:The engineer (in white shirt and tie) is seated between a 6-foot 19-inch rack (analog computer) and a blackboard (identifying computer dials with parameters in his equations).The caption (written by somebody younger than I) said that the computer generated so much heat that 400 vacuum tubes were required to remove the heat.(Next month's newsletter had quite a few letters from senior staff members.)

author: porter
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 14, 2025, 06:11:48 pm
content: I like to study the methods and thinking of the early analog designers such as R. Widler.(attached, "Some Circuit Design Techniques for Linear Integrated Circuits" circa 1965)

author: NE666
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 14, 2025, 07:13:49 pm
content: Quote from: Fried Chicken on February 14, 2025, 04:33:21 pmMe neither.However, one thing to consider when it comes to the question of why do we seem to live in a digital vs analog world now, is noise, and how those two domains behave in that respect. The example of CD vs analog tape is a prime one. Noise is inherent to all electronic systems. In the digital domain, there are ways of dealing with it that allow accurate, lossless signal transmission, storage and recovery. Much less so, with analogue systems and computing.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 14, 2025, 08:02:59 pm
content: Consider investigating a halfway-house between digital (discrete time discrete level) and analogue (continuous time continuous level).The "discrete time continuous level domain" has many interesting characteristics and benefits, famous ones being n-path filters and mixer-first radio receiver (Tayloe mixers)The former is triumphantly re-invented every decade or so; I first used it in the late 70s and trad analogue engineers couldn't believe the performance.The latter was so revolutionary that DARPA organised a conference about just that circuit and concept on its own.See mawyatt's threads on the subjects.

author: Analog Kid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 14, 2025, 08:52:55 pm
content: I like to keep in mind thatthere's really no such thing as digital circuitry.OK, I admit that's a little click-baity. But I got your attention, no?What I mean is that with some exceptions, the circuits that we think of as "digital" (basic things like logic gates, buffers, combinatorial logic, etc.) are at the circuit level analog devices that have their thresholds set so that they give out (and respond to) logic-level signals. Just look at the schematic for, say, a flip-flop and tell me it's not analog inside.Amiright?I challenge y'all to show us a circuit that's actually digital at the circuit level.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 14, 2025, 09:19:03 pm
content: Relay logic.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 14, 2025, 09:28:20 pm
content: I'm waiting for somebody to post the famous image of Bob WidlarStill, I very much prefer a digital display which provides me with a number compared to a needle instrument.

author: nali
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 14, 2025, 09:30:01 pm
content: Quote from: TimFox on February 14, 2025, 09:19:03 pmYou think a relay contact goes from infinity to zero ohms with nothing in between?I agree with Analog Kid. Digital is just an abstraction, everything else is analog(ue).

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 14, 2025, 09:32:08 pm
content: Quote from: nali on February 14, 2025, 09:30:01 pmThe state between low and high resistance is useless.With solid-state digital gates, employed improperly, all hell can break loose during the transition from low to high, due to unforeseen analog effects.

author: nali
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 14, 2025, 09:34:53 pm
content: Quote from: TimFox on February 14, 2025, 09:32:08 pmSure... same for all* types of logic. But it exists.(Edit: *Maybe apart from quantum logic?)

author: Analog Kid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 14, 2025, 09:41:22 pm
content: Quote from: TimFox on February 14, 2025, 09:19:03 pmBingo.(Well, mostly: even relay contacts have some "in-between" states, but they can be ignored in a first-order analysis. Essentially either on or off.)

author: SteveThackery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 14, 2025, 09:55:44 pm
content: You can implement logic gates using all sorts of technologies - for example mechanically. It isn't the implementation that matters, it's the function we care about. And the function is definitely digital, not analogue.Yes, electronic logic gates have finite rise times due to their less-than-perfect implementation, but theirfunction- their role in life - is certainly digital.So I think a logic device can legitimately be called either analogueordigital, depending on whether you are talking about their implementation or their function.

author: Xena E
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 14, 2025, 09:59:38 pm
content: You can use some digital inverting gates as analog amplifiers ...Quote from: nctnico on February 14, 2025, 09:28:20 pmThis one?

author: Analog Kid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 14, 2025, 10:01:26 pm
content: Quote from: SteveThackery on February 14, 2025, 09:55:44 pmYes, but you're missing the point here:Inside they're analog. All of them (with few exceptions, like relays)."Digital" is a notional concept, an abstraction. Most people who know a little about how computers work at the system level probably think that all those little circuits are inherently digital inside (just ones and zeroes).

author: Xena E
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 14, 2025, 10:02:20 pm
content: Or this?

author: Analog Kid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 14, 2025, 10:02:51 pm
content: Quote from: Xena E on February 14, 2025, 09:59:38 pmIntriguing. Examples? Circuits?

author: SteveThackery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 14, 2025, 10:21:10 pm
content: Quote from: Analog Kid on February 14, 2025, 10:01:26 pmI think we are in vigorous agreement! I said that they can be considered both, depending on how you look at them. All silicon logic gates are analogue at the implementation level, and they are all digital at the functional level.Suppose they were implemented using relays. Would you still claim that "digital is a notional concept, an abstraction"? I don't think so! In that case there is nothing notional or abstract about "digital".In general I don't think that "digital" is a notional concept or an abstraction. Digital exists in the world of mathematics where it is just as valid and real as analogue.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 14, 2025, 10:23:07 pm
content: Quote from: Analog Kid on February 14, 2025, 10:02:51 pmThe simplest one is to use a CMOS inverter with a feedback resistor (say, 1 megohm) from OUT to IN, isolating input and output with capacitors, to make a high-gain inverting AC amplifier.This works best with CMOS, where the DC quiescent condition has both input and output close to halfway between the rails.Some CMOS may overheat, with both output FETs conducting.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 14, 2025, 10:33:22 pm
content: Quote from: TimFox on February 14, 2025, 10:23:07 pmLike this. The old 4000 series with their high on resistance are less prone to overheating. The CD4069 with its unbuffered gates works well.The most common application is crystal oscillators, which have a square wave output, even though they're still relying on the gate as a linear amplifier.

author: NE666
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 14, 2025, 10:42:07 pm
content: Quote from: Analog Kid on February 14, 2025, 10:01:26 pmI take your point but if you look behind the curtain (at least with our current understanding and models) that analog appearance gives way to another quantised world, of charge, energy, spin etc.Not to suggest that we manipulate the latter directly in the normal course of EE.

author: Analog Kid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 14, 2025, 10:52:44 pm
content: Yes. That's a bit deeper down in the pile of turtles.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 14, 2025, 11:18:46 pm
content: Quote from: SteveThackery on February 14, 2025, 09:55:44 pmElectronic logic gates are all analogue circuits with a limited range of input/output voltages/currents. Provided the inputs and outputs are within the limits, they can beinterpretedas digital signals.Never forget fluidic logic. Found in automatic vehicle transmission systems, and other places where electricity is unwelcome - e.g. unmanned offshore oil/gas platforms.If you want to consider analogue waveforms with discrete non-continuous values, you have to resort to things like photon counting circuits, femtoamp circuits, Josephson Junctions, and similar.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2025, 12:00:02 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on February 14, 2025, 09:28:20 pmDepends on the application.Good luck interpreting thechangeof a digital attitude indicator rather thanto determine which direction and distance to push/pull the stick.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2025, 12:56:06 am
content: Quote from: Xena E on February 14, 2025, 10:02:20 pmYes, this one.I put it on my office wall at some point, that was fun.

author: Analog Kid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2025, 01:17:10 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on February 14, 2025, 09:28:20 pmTo me, that all depends.In a situation where the quantity being measured is more or less fixed, not varying wildly, and you want high accuracy, a digital display seems better.But a lot of times if I'm working on a circuit where, say, the voltage or current varies a lot and I want to see what ballpark I'm in, or to see what the range is, a moving needle (on a VOM or VTVM) is just the thing. More intuitively understood than a bunch of varying digits.

author: Fried Chicken
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2025, 02:48:31 am
content: Quote from: tggzzz on February 15, 2025, 12:00:02 amThis right here.Steam gauges all the way.https://www.ntsb.gov/safety/safety-studies/Pages/SS1001.aspxQuote from: NTSB

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2025, 03:42:45 pm
content: I like messing around with analog computing. The Mass-Spring-Damper problem is a classic 2d order Ordinary Differential Equation that is easily built around 2 integrators, 1 summer and 3 gain blocks. I remember spending quite a bit of time on this problem in grad school.The 1/s blocks represent the two integrators and the second integrator has the initial value of -1. Something is pulling down on the mass (IC = -1) and then releases it.The attached files are representative of the input to MATLAB Simulink and the scope output.I also have the problem modeled on a ComDyna GP-6https://oldcomputermuseum.com/comdyna_gp6.html

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2025, 04:41:33 pm
content: Quote from: Analog Kid on February 15, 2025, 01:17:10 amAnother example where an analog moving-needle readout (even if generated by computation) is better than a numerical readout is when you need to adjust a circuit for null, as in balancing a bridge.

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2025, 04:47:48 pm
content: Hey Xena E: Could you please let me know to , WHO that is, in the photo you posted ? Is that Arnold ? The guy giving finger, in reply #16.I notice Bob Widlar is smoking (tobacco), and did die early (50's). In my childhood, the 5 or 6 adults smoking every one died 'early'.Just another factoid from your favorite pot-head.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2025, 05:10:43 pm
content: By the way, an even better analog indication for a bridge null (rather than moving-needle meter) is the pair of dual magic-eye tubes used on my Wayne Kerr B221 admittance bridge (conductance and capacitance in parallel).https://www.pa3esy.nl/meetinstrumenten/wayne-kerr/pdf/Wayne%20Kerr%20Universal%20Bridge%20B221%20and%20accesories.pdfThe bridge itself uses switched windings on ratio transformers to balance quadrature current (through a reference capacitor) and in-phase current (through a reference resistor) with the current through the unknown component.The null indication uses four magic-eye sections: gain pot, tuned pentode amplifier, remote-cutoff section of first eye tube, sharp-cutoff section of first eye tube, second tuned pentode, and two sections of second eye tube.

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2025, 07:36:12 pm
content: One big push for innovation is creation of different, (novel) BUS and data transfer signal re-definitions.I've tried using an 8-bit hybrid, where each 'bit' is not of the usual convention. Ideally need some other, different term. Like using 'BANT' as a binary-analog-bit.You will need hardware change as well, but attempts are to use various conventions, like the 3.3 volt digital signals as full scale.But the ultimate data transfer would contain 8 signals, each in a binary weighted power of two type.First signal at 1 mV. Next 2 mV, next 4 mV,...etc. Hardware could simply SUM the 8 signals, to create an ultimate 'Analog Word'.Now, the limits of resolution at 8 bits or 1 in 256, are moderate, but that's like 1978 tech.To get into really good resolution is going to need to better than 8 'bants'.Main idea (fragmented), is that the digital sections can use the 'BANTS' just like any old digital 'bit'. That's likely not near enough, but readers can see the ideas behind the format suggestion here, for novel data transfers within a super+sized ANALOG system.

author: Analog Kid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2025, 07:47:48 pm
content: Quote from: TimFox on February 22, 2025, 05:10:43 pmBack when I was a kid just starting out playing around with photography (and acquiring gear), I had a great light meter, a Gossen Luna Pro. My all-time favorite. Instead of a meter it had two lights. When you adjusted it so the lights had equal brightness, that was your reading.

author: Gregg
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2025, 08:35:15 pm
content: An analog synchroscope is hands down better than any digital approximation when manually paralleling 3 phase generators.

author: Xena E
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2025, 09:16:11 pm
content: Off topic, apologies...Quote from: RJSV on February 22, 2025, 04:47:48 pmEh WOT Rick Jack? Thats David L Jones.Quote from: RJSV on February 22, 2025, 04:47:48 pmIf Bob had Puffed a bit of minty bud, he may have calmed down and lived longer, (Dont do drugs kids).Actually he was on a health kick and getting clean but died when exercising on a run, damage was done by then no doubt.I've been pissing myself laughing at each contribution to this thread, not at the honorable membership, or the interesting content I hasten to add, but just what comes up on the home page auf meinem handy, when somebody makes a post... puerile humour I know.Screen shot will explain...Regards,X.

author: Analog Kid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2025, 09:52:23 pm
content: I guess *somebody* had to go there ...Must be time to see The Rapist ...

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2025, 09:56:37 pm
content: Quote from: Analog Kid on February 22, 2025, 09:52:23 pmAh. Somebody else remembers the old test of how well/poorly word processors split words.

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2025, 10:11:59 pm
content: OK I see 'm.Dave Jones has goatee and dark hair, so I missed it. But I can recognize right away, (after taken by the hand, lol. Good posture and smile, easy to recognize that.Our professor took his time, telling the Bob Widlar story; making a current source appear as a huge resistor, and without much size penalty.

author: Xena E
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2025, 11:09:14 am
content: Quote from: Analog Kid on February 22, 2025, 09:52:23 pm*somebody* just had to acknowledge the minimal effort that 'Fried Chicken' had to put in to come up with thisspoof thread.I make my living from analogbut would never claim to "really like it".😲FC Should have saved the idea for April...

author: Analog Kid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2025, 11:33:42 am
content: Quote from: Xena E on February 23, 2025, 11:09:14 amSpoof thread?Just went back and read the 1st post, and it don't seem like no spoof to me ...

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2025, 02:50:36 pm
content: ...Yeah: SPOOF ? Might be ok anyway, if things satisfy the needs of readers. I.E. some learning process, and maybe some entertainment.If a SPOOF falls in the forest...who hears the 'crash' ?

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2025, 03:04:03 pm
content: Thanks, XENA E, for the new, clever word, (I'm keeping a 'words words' list, of ironic / sarcastic variations):Latest:1.). Anal-O.G. It has a nice, street sound.2.). Uni-diversity : As in,"I graduated, in 1884, from Electronics Uni-Diversity of Pennsylvania"

author: Xena E
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2025, 03:17:45 pm
content: Quote from: Analog Kid on February 23, 2025, 11:33:42 amFair enough... contrived then, perhaps, (it's been done before).Quote from: RJSV on February 23, 2025, 02:50:36 pmExactly: just like watching an ElectroBoom VideoQuote from: RJSV on February 23, 2025, 03:04:03 pmEEVBlog: Its like an internet college, a place for fun, a place for knowledge.X

author: Analog Kid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2025, 05:14:26 am
content: RoGeorge: You lost me there, buddy.

author: Smokey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2025, 05:50:35 am
content: The trick here is recognizing, in the modern world, when one thing is actually objectively better than another.Of the things you listed:(DVD is objectively better)VHS --> DVD(Modern Digital Projection is objectively better)Film Project --> Digital Projection(Digital Photography is objectively better)Film photography --> CMOS/CCD(Cell phones are objectively better)Home phone --> Cell Phone(CDs are massively objectively better)Vinyl --> CD(DMM is objectively so much better it's not even funny)Analog multimeter --> DMM(Quit it with this myth. No serious professional engineer in 2025 uses an analog scope often/ever. Digital is objectively better in almost every way)Analog scope --> digital scope(I'll take your point here. I prefer a dead tree for a number of reasons)Book --> e-reader(Same here. Still take notes in a dead tree notebook, but they often get transferred into a digital report)Notebooks/pads -- > Smartphone(As art pieces analog clocks are better. As clocks, digital is better at telling time)Analog clocks --> digital clocksEvery one of those can easily be argued (ie, have you actually tried to watch a VHS recently? )Just saying Digital Bad!!!! is silly. Why not argue we are all missing out driving around in our modern cars and should all get horses! You're missing out on the horse shit in the streets experience, man!Now if you start talking about circuit design, you better have an understanding of analog stuff (or have an analog expert at the ready). But that's different than "analog nostalgia" or whatever that list of stuff was supposed to be.

author: Analog Kid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2025, 06:01:12 am
content: Quote from: Smokey on February 24, 2025, 05:50:35 amHey, not so fast there, good buddy.First of all, photography is not something that canonlybe judged objectively; there are lots of subjective aspects in the mix.Why do you think people still like to take pictures with pinhole cameras?Objectively speaking, they stink, optically: low-res, diffraction effects, etc.And yet a lot of us just love the effect of a pinhole picture.Film has some qualities that digital doesn't. (And a large-format camera still has a total resolution that rivals the best digital sensors.)

author: Andy Chee
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2025, 06:14:27 am
content: Quote from: Analog Kid on February 24, 2025, 06:01:12 amThis discussion thread isn't about photography though.This discussion is about the assertion that analog is better than digital (or vice versa) in generic applications, rather than specific (e.g. photography)

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2025, 06:16:49 am
content: Yes photography wouldn't be a very good example. While digital sensors have become very good and it's hard to beat the convenience, film photography still has its proponents and gives a unique result. Even the settings (like shutter speed, aperture, etc) do not behave exactly the same on digital cameras.

author: Smokey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2025, 06:25:48 am
content: Quote from: Analog Kid on February 24, 2025, 06:01:12 amI said I could argue the points... Try at least.Point: Objectively, a digital camera does a better job of capturing an image. Higher local resolution (vs film grains). Higher dynamic range. Etc.If you are talking about large format, you could easily stitch together multiple high res digital images and create something significantly bigger than the biggest film.How about quality of life for the photographer. What did the analog process look like. Buy expensive film. Make sure you don't ruin the film as you load it into the camera. Take some photos (without knowing if they are any good on the spot). Try not to ruin the film taking it out of the camera. Send it away to have it developed (or god forbid, do it yourself in a dark room). Pick through the prints and toss out all the bad ones. Enjoy your work if there were any good ones.Or... snap as many digital shots as you want (with more real time setup and configuration options). Get instant feedback.I'm in no way trying to say people are wrong or stupid or something for wanting to take film photos still (or pinhole or whatever). But it's a losing battle to say film is objectively "better".If your main goal is to make art, then by all means let the monkey spread paint on the wall and capture the image on a living plant leaf().But if the goal is to capture an image of photons as accurately as possible, digital wins.

author: Fried Chicken
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2025, 01:23:54 pm
content: Quote from: Smokey on February 24, 2025, 05:50:35 amThat "list of stuff" was to exemplify how everything went digital in the 90s, so my exposure to analog ways of doing things is limited. Now everything has been digitized and enshittified, it's worth pointing out the advantages of analog technologies, that in many waysto this day set the standard.It's not that digital can't be better, it's that analog can't be enshittified.

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2025, 02:04:26 pm
content: Smokey: thanks,Your inclusion of ideas to impress images on living green leaves is awesome!VALENTINE'S DAY project, is potentially HOT item. I mean; Think of your girl opening the box of flowers, giant white roses, with her face, or wife and infant image.Gosh, somebody could start a business, TODAY,...going on the market with a few boutique shops, and good AMAZON delivery.Order a flower, having image of wife and two kids, etc.I'd do it myself, if not for clutzy personal, uh, limitations...(like having no cash or working PC...Rick-Jack

author: schmitt trigger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2025, 02:24:50 pm
content: Something that is not on the list of analog vs digital comparisons: the internal combustion engine management, where digital clearly wins.Does anyone remember the early 1980s smog-reduction implementation? All analog, implemented by a spaghetti of hoses all the way to carburetors and points-based ignition?It is safe to say that modern ICEs achieve higher power vs displacement ratios, while simultaneously having better fuel economy and less emissions, thanks to the very fine tuning achievable by real time digital control of all the mechanical elements.I ALSO LOVE ANALOG, but I would not want to go back to carburetors.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2025, 03:49:57 pm
content: Quote from: schmitt trigger on February 24, 2025, 02:24:50 pmIs the fluid-based controller inside old automatic gearboxes analogue or digital?

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2025, 04:12:01 pm
content: On cinema and film, having watched a number of flicks in IMAX 35mm and also IMAX digital projection, and watching others on my HDR capable OLED TV... sorry, the projector loses for sure. It cannot manage the contrast, brightness or colour volume of the OLED display. The digital projector is better than the film projector... but only a little bit because the image has less noise and judder on it.

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2025, 04:53:24 pm
content: My take on advantages of digital systems in photography is more that digital stuff is easier to flip through, (casually), on the couch, or on the bus. That means having 50 pictures right there in my smart phone.(Ironically, though, the picture quality is absolute BAD, squinting at thumbnail sized photos in the smart phone gallery!But quality of display doesn't matter so much, right in the moment, when searching for that funny squirrel.Ditto for archive of music, videos, and documents. In a search, I usually don't care about quality, just wanting to find and organize things, for use after searching.I've done the nature photography thing, searching through stacks of enlar0ged photos,...on my living room floor.(Messy).0

author: schmitt trigger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2025, 05:37:19 pm
content: Remember these contraptions?https://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/1262841-help-navigating-vacuum-diagram-pics.html#&gid=1&pid=1

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2025, 07:14:20 pm
content: Quote from: Smokey on February 24, 2025, 05:50:35 amIf you want to be objective, you have to define some metrics against which you measure. Then thesubjectivepart is to give coefficients of importance to these metrics. You have this built-in in your list, therefore your list is subjective.Of course it is quite easy to agree with you to some point. 99.99% will agree that DVD "looks better" than VHS. But then again this is subjective. Someone could be particularly sensitive to MPEG-2 compression artifacts (even though they are not very visible on usual DVD thanks to decent bitrate) but still somehow totally fine with the crappy resolution (especially chroma) of VHS.(VHS is actually quite acceptable. Things like video-CDs or Youtube in its early days and low bitrates are, in my opinion,a lotworse, even when they are digital.)And, for some, the large sleeve of a vinyl record with large cover artwork makes it better than DVD. You can measure that objectively by measuring the dimensions of the artwork. You simply placed zero coefficient of "goodness" to this fact, and concentrated on something else, such as the record not degrading in noise, linearity and frequency response even after being played 100 times.I was quite interested in working with photographic film (still and motion) during the "transition period", that was around 2007-2013. I heard this "digital objectively better in all image-quality related metrics" a lot back then and it was basically pretty much bullshit back then. Around 2010 it was pretty easy to beat digital imaging especially in dynamic range but also in resolution, especially when cost of equipment was considered. I have not followed since but now I assume digital photo- and cinematography must have evolved tremendously technically to the point ofactuallysurpassing film on hard technical numbers, even dynamic range. But that was never really important to most; easier and faster process was the reason to transition and in fields where that is relevant (reporting news etc) transition happened already around year 2000. And then again, for someone else the slower and more "difficult" process with film can be a reason in itself to use it. If that is your metric, then analog film is objectively better.

author: Analog Kid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2025, 07:47:51 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on February 24, 2025, 03:49:57 pmI would say analog, as the controller presumably has a range of positions, not just "on" or "off".(With some kinds of thresholds to activate gear changes, perhaps somewat like a Schmitt trigger.)But I ain't no auto mechanic.

author: Smokey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2025, 08:06:46 pm
content: Quote from: Fried Chicken on February 24, 2025, 01:23:54 pmIs anyone else unimpressed by the word "enshittified" getting used to describe something someone just doesn't like?You know you're right. Enjoy your scrolling 333×480 VHS, scratched vinyl, blurry photo with your finger in the corner, missed call, burned CRT, dial readings etc.... So lucky you get to remember (from the 90s? ha!) all that stuff before it got "shittified" by modern high resolution, reliable, reproducible, miniature digital garbage!

author: Analog Kid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2025, 08:10:22 pm
content: Quote from: Smokey on February 24, 2025, 08:06:46 pmYour partisanship in favor of All Things Digital seems quite subjective to me ...And BTW, my vinyl (some of it at least) is pristine, totally unscratched, just about as quiet as CD, and has glorious sound.You need to take care of it, yes.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2025, 09:07:31 pm
content: Quote from: Analog Kid on February 24, 2025, 08:10:22 pmVinyl is still nowhere near as good as CD. The amplifier even includes filtering to correct for the crappy frequency response.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RIAA_equalization?useskin=vectorThe only reason to prefer analogue from an objective point of view is, the lack of DRM, but the older digital formats such as CD don't have DRM and others such as DVD have been circumvented long ago.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2025, 09:19:06 pm
content: Quotevinyl infinite sample rate meanwhile cd is limited to 44.1khz

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2025, 09:30:46 pm
content: Quote from: themadhippy on February 24, 2025, 09:19:06 pmSo what?

author: Analog Kid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2025, 09:33:57 pm
content: Wellll, Nyquist is nice, but it pixellates at the high end, unlike (good-quality) analog.May be beyond the range of human hearing, but the overall effect may still be detectable to a good ear.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2025, 10:02:12 pm
content: Quote from: Analog Kid on February 24, 2025, 09:33:57 pmIt makes no difference because there's more noise at higher frequencies on vinyl and the bandwidth limits of vinyl and the human ear.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2025, 10:55:37 pm
content: Quote from: Analog Kid on February 24, 2025, 09:33:57 pmYoung person's human hearing caps out at 18-21kHz, average adult 15-18kHz... So no, unless you have superhuman hearing, you wouldn't be able to hear anything more than that, it's beyond perceptible, and Nyquist reproduces the signal up to Fs/2 perfectly, so CD is good for any sinewave or combination thereof up to 22.05kHz.There is some benefit to having 24-bit depth over 16-bit depth, since 16-bit is only about 96dB dynamic range, and the human ear is capable of a little more than that. However, given most listening environments aren't silent, and normal hi-fi speakers don't tend to go over 100dB(SPL) at listening distance, there's not much benefit. Maybe with noise-cancelling headphones there is a benefit. There are significant benefits for editing if all sources are mastered to 24-bit since you can mix inputs more precisely without losing noticeable detail.I imagine there could be some benefit in higher sampling rates for editing. In theory, you can reconstruct everything audible from the 44.1kHz data, but maybe you want to fold down some ultrasonics into the audible range? IDK. Seems like there wouldn't be that many applications that justify it.

author: Andy Chee
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2025, 11:55:34 pm
content: Quote from: Analog Kid on February 24, 2025, 09:33:57 pmNyquist is not just for human ears. It also applies to, say, weather temperature. You don’t need to take weather temperatures at high 100kHz sample rates. 10 minute intervals are probably more than sufficient. Tornado pressure readings would probably require higher sample rates.

author: Fried Chicken
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 25, 2025, 01:35:30 am
content: Quote from: Smokey on February 24, 2025, 08:06:46 pmIreallydon't know why my statement upsets you... it's clearly hit a nerve.The term "enshittified" does not mean "I don't like it". It means: taking something good, and making it shitty for reasons of who the fuck knows why.Let me give you a concrete example: I just installed some latest and greatest head unit for my car. Touchscreens, bluetooth, USB, apple playcar, auto android; all these great wonderful things. But here's the thing, somehow we've managed to make a button that doesn't actually respond when you push it, or it intermittently responds, or most astoundingly: responds with a delay. The effort required to achieve something like this is absolutely MONUMENTAL when you think about it.... and we do we have for that effort? CRAP!The Analog radio in the older cars had power buttons directly connected to a relay, directly connected to power. The delay between pushing a button --> on was NONEXISTANT. The power control was a potentiometer that directly opened the floodgates of power into the amplifier. The equalizer could be messed with in seconds, and if you wanted to shut the whole thing off, it happened in an INSTANT!Is the sound quality better? No. It's still shit.Canit do all these extra great wonderful things? Theoretically? Yes. In practice? Only if you want to end up in a tree while driving!

author: Analog Kid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 25, 2025, 01:41:33 am
content: Well, to be fair your reply mixes the concept of digital vs. analog up with poor implementations of digital (or any, really) technology. Which is indeed "enshittification".But your point is taken.

author: Fried Chicken
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 25, 2025, 02:18:18 am
content: Quote from: Analog Kid on February 25, 2025, 01:41:33 amWell I thought this statement made this profoundly clear:Quote from: meHere's another example of enshittification:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loudness_war?useskin=vectorAnd also some things continuous circuitry just does better and we've sort of lost that

author: BeBuLamar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 25, 2025, 03:13:32 am
content: I own, use and love a lot of analog stuff like Cassette Decks, Turntables, Analog Multimeterr, Slide Rules, Film Cameras but they are not as good as the digital counterparts in my opinion.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 25, 2025, 04:13:31 am
content: A few years ago, I was photographing across the Chicago River with my 8 by 10 inch camera (with 100 speed Ektachrome) and a passing tourist asked me how many megapixels I had. After a quick mental calculation, I estimated about 500 megapixels equivalent.

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 25, 2025, 04:54:59 am
content: I'm not taking sides, but:Consider this, as Fried Chicken just elucidated:Suppose, a person has unfortunate child, suffering badly from cognitive issues.Now that child, strapped there in car seat, and wants to play a little music.Step #1.). Turn knob.Done.OR, a Digified Digital System:Step #1.). Press 'ON' button#2.). Select 'Audio Menu' (item 4)#3.). Filter Options ? (Press no).#4.). Dish, or network 4xzu10/de#5.). Disabled on call ? (select)See what I (we) mean ?Your disabled kid hasn't got a clue, how to just get ANY music to start....

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 25, 2025, 09:07:55 am
content: Quote from: Fried Chicken on February 25, 2025, 01:35:30 amNo it does not.Cory Doctorow invented the word for a specific situation which followed a specific sequencefor specific reasons.https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enshittification

author: hans
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 25, 2025, 10:05:39 am
content: I would read the work of enshittified in two ways:I think the enshittification of digital media is content consumers having "poor taste" with content producers becoming lazy to feed that poor taste. Many people have low standards, unfortunately. Music is compressed immensely so you can listen to it in a noisy car, or modern movies are shot in RAW format so that editors can master the material later on in any way they please. However, postponing that decision leads to abandoning the need for making choices, and thus a lot of media is flat, compressed and boring.If source material was recorded in a imperfect way, a good editor will recognize it and make it work somehow. Having limitations results in the best creativity. Endless choices and freedom does not. It becomes dull.But on a more technical noteEnshittification of analog circuits is where they shine today. Everything is pushed to digital ASAP because the digital transistors have scaled, while analog needs large gm's to work. Adding 1 bit extra in a digital circuit scales linear. 20 bit to 21 bit is only 5% more power and area. 3dB extra dynamic range in analog requires quadrupling power. Thus to process high-end media, a digital version won't degrade and is very cheap to process at e.g. 64-bit double floating point representation. On the other hand, if you would design an analog circuit that is only good for 4 or 5 bits of dynamic range, its amazing how low power analog can scale once you start tailoring your own amplifiers with the proper g_m, bandwidth and NF requirements. Its unfortunate that its a ton more work to just throwing in an opamp though.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 25, 2025, 10:09:03 am
content: This thread has an unfortunately truncated title when it is summarised in the forum list, I did a double-take.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 25, 2025, 10:23:21 am
content: Quote from: hans on February 25, 2025, 10:05:39 amA 150 year old book, well remembered and referenced for very good reasons, is relevant at this point: "Through the Looking-Glass" Ch6 by Lewis Carroll[Humpty Dumpty:] 'And only ONE for birthday presents, you know. There's glory for you!''I don't know what you mean by "glory,"' Alice said.Humpty Dumpty smiled contemptuously. 'Of course you don't--till I tell you. I meant "there's a nice knock-down argument for you!"''But "glory" doesn't mean "a nice knock-down argument,"' Alice objected.'When _I_ use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean--neither more nor less.''The question is,' said Alice, 'whether you CAN make words mean so many different things.''The question is,' said Humpty Dumpty, 'which is to be master--that's all.'http://www.cleavebooks.co.uk/grol/alice/glass06.htm

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 25, 2025, 11:31:02 am
content: Quote from: Zero999 on February 24, 2025, 09:07:31 pmWhat a ridiculous statement. RIAA emphasis and de-emphasis is by design. What you say is similar to claiming that CD is bad because PCM code is just ones and zeroes and the decoder "has" to "filter" that "crappy" data into "correct" output levels.You are free to compare dynamic range, frequency response, linearity etc. if you so wish. Existence of a technical encoding detail does not make it "crappy".

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 25, 2025, 11:36:44 am
content: Quote from: Siwastaja on February 25, 2025, 11:31:02 am... and based on the physics of magnetic fields and coils

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 25, 2025, 11:37:16 am
content: Quote from: Siwastaja on February 25, 2025, 11:31:02 amYes it does. Component tolerances mean the RIAA filter used by the recording studio and listener's Hi-Fi are imperfectly matched, which will distort the frequency response and phase shift of the playback.

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 25, 2025, 02:39:57 pm
content: Quote from: Zero999 on February 25, 2025, 11:37:16 amJust like there are poor implementations of CD player DACs (especially in early players). Analog performance of filters and amplifier stages cannot be removed from the equation by making one part of the chain digital, or specifying that all analog transfer functions must be all-pass unity gain on all frequencies.I have news for you: DAC is followed with LPF and that will have a frequency response as well, depending on analog components.It is entirely possible to design a high-end RIAA stage with similarly minimal amplitude and phase error (from ideal curve), just like it is possible to design a DAC + amplifier that does the same on CD.

author: JPortici
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 25, 2025, 03:08:56 pm
content: Quote from: Analog Kid on February 14, 2025, 10:02:51 pmthe WASP synthesizer!I also chuckled at the title

author: jonpaul
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 25, 2025, 03:23:53 pm
content: My 1960 0-400V 250 mA metered linear lab supply for tues (valves)Based on Heathkit and RCA classic designs.Enjoy!Jon

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 25, 2025, 04:01:42 pm
content: Out of curiosity, why did you use a remote-cutoff 6SK7 instead of the usual 6SJ7 for the error amplifier?

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 25, 2025, 04:53:58 pm
content: Interesting how, in my case at least, the discussions that delve deep into subtle details, make my eyes roll, in fatigue.Now, I'm not attempting to throw shit, on things here, but rather just pointing out, that other technical subject readers might also get turned off, by the seemingly over-hyped details.A neighbor, (Charles) would not let anyone TOUCH the audio 'system'. He kept cardboard tubes (from paper towels), to turn any knobs.That was due to hand 'grease' he wished to keep off his vinyl albums.Grease, in extreme, can maybe compromise potentiometers graphite surface. (NOT!)

author: schmitt trigger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 25, 2025, 04:58:57 pm
content: Gotta love the purple glow of those regulator tubes.EDIT; I would guess, with all those transformers and chokes, that the device easily weighs 15 or more kilograms.

author: Analog Kid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 25, 2025, 06:47:25 pm
content: Quote from: BeBuLamar on February 25, 2025, 03:13:32 amI can quibble with at least one of those items: slide rules.Let's compare a slide rule (an analog device) to an electronic calculator (digital)."Not as good" depends on the criteria: if you mean "more accurate", then sure, the calculator will always win.However, there can be other criteria, like ease of usage. And though I have no personal experience here, I can well imagine that there were engineers, say in the late 1960s-70s, when desktop calculators became commonplace, who could do calculations faster with a slide rule than a calculator. Therefore "better" than the digital alternative in that sense.Of course, those calculations would be first-pass estimates only, since a slide rule is only accurate to at most 2 or 3 decimal places, depending on the user's eyesight and requiring interpolation.

author: BeBuLamar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 25, 2025, 07:16:08 pm
content: Quote from: Analog Kid on February 25, 2025, 06:47:25 pmPerhaps someone can but I can't do calculation faster on the slide rule than the calculator. There is one thing I found the slide rule does better that is for example to convert inches to mm you set the rule to multiply by 25.4 then you can inches scale is right next to the mm scale so it's very convenient if you have to do it for many values of the inches.

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 25, 2025, 07:32:25 pm
content: One thing I find interesting is how "generic analog fanboys" (to be differentiated from "specific analog fanboys" like myself) always use theanalog clockas an example of some sort of pinnacle of the ease-of-use of analog technology.I can't imagine much more horrible user interface than the analog clock. It totally fucks up my brain. Timeisa number - digital is the most obvious way to express time. Numbers of some sort have been used to express time since we started writing stuff in stone or piece of parchment. For rough indication of time-of-day, a single analog needle to indicate the range [0, 24] would be acceptable, but exactly because no one is really satisfied with such rough indication of time (they want more accurate - they really need digital!) we have come up with the horribly convoluted way where half of the range is missing and needs to be guessed, and the remaining part is indicated by combination of two (sometimes three) indicator needles, which in the usual implementations have incorrectly swapped sizes (the least significant "minute" hand is physically larger and more visible than the most significant "hour" hand) and incorrectly labelled scales: "minute" hand points to numbers 1, 2, 3, ... when it should point to a secondary scale 5, 10, 15 ...; and "hour" hand points to nothing, when it should point to a primary scale 1, 2, 3...Reading the time takes lookups of two different needles, with a specific cross-correlation algorithm running in our brain, because takingnearest neighborfrom the hours hand simply is not enough without combining it with the minute information (otherwise any small amount of noise or misalignment gets the hours off-by-one). At least I still do the mistake of looking up the hours first, only to notice that it is impossible to say to which of the two hours it points to; after that I read minutes and using that information I can look up the hours again and decide which one it is. What a horrible indicator. If something like this was in critical process control or aircraft, it would have been made illegal decades ago.I mean, it's not like I consciously do that every time. It really takes only a second or so. But maybe I'm more self-aware about how my brain operates than most human beings. They would still operate similarly even if they don't think about it.The only reason why this can work at all is that people get exposed to it from kids and are literally taught how to read (i.e., parse) it in school. With digital clocks, no such teaching never takes a place; it doesn't need to; it is obvious. Digital is so much easier and faster to read, as long as you have learned the digits and our base-10 number system, and that, to be fair, is not trivial, andistaught at the school. But it has so many other important uses that the obvious extra use in clocks comes as free.

author: Analog Kid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 25, 2025, 07:38:55 pm
content: My brain has been trained to read time from analog clocks from an early age.I have absolutely no problem seeing what time it is from just a glance at the two hands.Even on clocks that have no other marks on their face.It actually takes a tiny bit longer for me to register the time from a digital display.

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 25, 2025, 07:47:42 pm
content: RoGeorge:I like the way you work / think.Regarding the NN (neural net), would you mind sharing an overview of your 'day', that in terms just of your NN commentary ?Just something like:"I usually set aside a couple hours on, 'XYZ', and musing after reading 'ABC' science journal,...", that sort of casual chat.

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 25, 2025, 07:58:38 pm
content: Anyway, I like the explanation, and let's see if I've understood:Neural nets, in natural settings, like a crow or something, have to be trained and adjust a multitude of 'weights' or even have to 'build' the connections, on-going.In a LAB, we can skip a lot of that, by figuring the weights out in a conventional computer system. THAT, easy and simply, is the crux of an advantage when engaging in development.This solution helps for avoiding the massive traing step, instead moving the bulk of action over to a supporting dev. system.Could you please review / criticise ! ThanksRick - Jackie

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 25, 2025, 07:59:37 pm
content: QuoteMy digital kitchen clockwots the time mr wolf?

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 25, 2025, 09:19:01 pm
content: Quote from: RJSV on February 25, 2025, 07:58:38 pmYou can use a pretrained model and not incur the computing necessary to do the training but it had to happen somewhere.Even the simple MNIST written digit recognition has 784 weights and 784 biases in the input layer alone. I think the total comes out to over 3000 each for just this smple project (I have forgotten the proper number). There's no way in the world to do this by hand. That's why the techniques had to wait for a blazing fast implementation of matrix algebra.Google for 'convolutional neural network hand written digits' and select a video.There's a reason Microsoft is trying to buy a nuclear power plant from Three Mile Island. Large Language Models take a ton of training on VERY large datasets.https://www.npr.org/2024/09/20/nx-s1-5120581/three-mile-island-nuclear-power-plant-microsoft-ai

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 25, 2025, 09:43:46 pm
content: Quote from: Siwastaja on February 25, 2025, 07:32:25 pmIt may fuck up your brain, but it is arrogant to presume all people are like you.QuoteAbsolute rubbish. It is clear you have never been in a cockpit, let alone flown an aircraft. Analogue dials continue to be the principal indicators in aircraft, especially for life critical indicators.Altimeters are invariably analogue dials with two needles. Artificial horizons are invariably analogue. ASIs are analogue, optionally with a complementary digital indication. There are veryverystrong human factors why thatisthe case and will remain the case; if not they would have been replaced by digits decades ago.Life critical? Please interpret these numbers to see which one has become wrong and will cause "eventualities" in 5-10 minutes time.122 67 95 3990 -45 10 367 88 1 100Whenquicklyscanning analogue indicators, the brain is adept at spotting thepatternof the needles'angles, and spotting where something haschanged. Not so with digits: slow, error prone, and eyes not looking out of the cockpit. The same is true for process control indicators.Life critical? Please interpret this sequence of numbers to determine whether you should force the stick left or right, and when you should centre it again...(267 35 -45), (320 25 -30), (65 45 -65), (122 30 -30), (176 25 -30), (290 20 -35)In 10s you will be strawberry jam (seriously!); what do you do with the stick?If you have an analogue artificial horizon and ASI, you only have to glance at how they arechangingto work out what you have to do.This is an example starting from, I guesstimate 4000ft. When I did this (repeatedly) I started at 1000ft and descended at ~100ft/s, hence 10s.QuoteYou seem to neglect one rather important point. Usually it is unnecessary visual/perception noise the time is shown as 15:34:59. Usually it is sufficient to know "just gone half past three".

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 25, 2025, 10:09:38 pm
content: Somewhere on Google, I saw a datapoint: 70,000 GPU hours to train the Tesla AI. Given a couple thousand GPUs, that's not bad at all. There must be more to it than just GPU hours.Search for 'how long does it take to train the tesla ai' and select the Google AI response.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 25, 2025, 10:55:03 pm
content: Quote from: Siwastaja on February 25, 2025, 02:39:57 pmA CD only requires an antialiasing filter, which doesn't have to meet precise specifications to perform to a high standard.RIAA filtering is a hack used to correct for the inherently crappy characteristics of vinyl, so needs to be more carefully designed to perform to a high standard.

author: Analog Kid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 25, 2025, 11:11:25 pm
content: Quote from: Zero999 on February 25, 2025, 10:55:03 pmBullshit. Where do you get the pejorative "crappy" from?RIAA is simply a required adjustment (equalization, not "hack") to flatten the response curve of a stylus-driven transducer by transforming constant velocity to constant amplitude.Next you'll be telling us that FM pilot frequency removal is a "hack".

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 26, 2025, 04:21:05 am
content: I tend to agree with tggzzz on the airplane pilot needing quick glance judgement.A conventional but old school mechanical clock has a hybrid mix phaving a digital type of escapement. The display, moved in tiny steps of either hand, is digitally or discretely 'stepped', moving in little increments. It's very very tempting to classify a clocks hand gears as 'smoothly' turning (gears).But it really is a start-stop jerky motion.Our CAT got very curious, when observing a second hand; bristling with motion, actually wiggling a bit, after each stop.I suppose, the best lable for the clock hands might be 'analog-like', based on looks when it is observed from some distance .Some special (mechanical) clock displays, like a water clock, lacking a start-stop escapement would be purely analog.The Pilots arguments would be hard to, uhh, ignore (for more than 10 seconds).Humans, parents of small children, bosses, all know about the importance of the'sweeping' glance' skills, and I would want the analog cockpit instruments for best 'glance' reliability.I DO like the discrete digital numerals when in exercise, to regulate mat times spent on various YOGA posture holding or dwell times.My planned sets often are 8 minutes each, before each break and next posture.That's for balance, so everything gets around the same amount of attention. Like 4 minutes on left leg stretch, then same for the right leg.Analog dial clocks are almost accurate enough, but need more deliberate attention._____________________________________________I remember when, in 1972, the digital HP Calculator hit the market.Expensive, I remember...Many of us in the class kept our Slide Rules...

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 26, 2025, 06:06:03 am
content: Quote from: Zero999 on February 25, 2025, 10:55:03 pmWhich is not trivial at all; early CD players had problems with this one; CD uses sampling rate low enough that Nyquist frequency is awfully close to the highest desirable frequency component. Later the problem was solved with oversampling.QuoteYeah. Just like PCM coding is a hack used to correct the inherently crappy 1-bit characteristics of optical disc.

author: elektryk
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 26, 2025, 09:32:53 am
content: Quote from: schmitt trigger on February 24, 2025, 05:37:19 pmUntil recently, engines had a lot of vacuum equipment despite the presence of an ECU.TDI engines from around the year 2000 has vacuum actuator for VGT, EGR, exhaust gas cooler, throttle, in newer ones they replaced most of them with electric actuators, which isnt' that bad because ECU now has exact feedback.The only problem is noticeably more expensive repairs of modern engines.

author: jonpaul
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 26, 2025, 02:27:21 pm
content: Schmidttrig:“Gotta love the purple glow of those regulator tubes.....”-----Argon filled voltage regulator tubes are indeed beautiful. As current increases 1-15 mA, the cathode glow area covers more of the electrode. Two 150V regulator tubes in series supply regulator feedback reference voltage and 0-300V grid bias variable via front panel potentiometer.“with all those transformers and chokes, weighs 15 or more kilograms'.------ Transformer was salvaged from discarded a large screen television set, B+ 500 V, filament and rectifier fil windings. High L DC Chokes reduce bus hum. Separate transformer feeds folting screen supply for 6BG6 pass tubes.A boat anchor its compact, for its functionality, dimensions 7.5"H x 10" D x 15.5" Wtimfox; "why did you use a remote-cutoff 6SK7 instead of the usual 6SJ7 for the error amplifier?"For the amplifier tube , in 1960 I knew nothing about different tube cutoff grid characteristics.The 1960 Schematic was an improved version of the classic Heathkit 400V and RCA vacuum tube handbook. The final version (in the photos) is very different in tubes and other details.Jon

author: Fried Chicken
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 26, 2025, 03:32:59 pm
content: I changed the post title after some people were offended too much and others too little over the automatic truncation

author: Xena E
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 26, 2025, 06:16:20 pm
content: Quote from: Fried Chicken on February 26, 2025, 03:32:59 pmYou CHICKEN!Personally I thought it was hilarious.Good topic though

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 26, 2025, 06:34:05 pm
content: Quote from: Fried Chicken on February 26, 2025, 03:32:59 pmYou changed it something almost but not completelyunlikethe original title. Not good.Now it makes the original discussion look stupid/irrelevant. Not good.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 26, 2025, 06:44:36 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on February 25, 2025, 09:07:55 amHe might have reinvented it, but he was at least decades too late to have invented it.

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 26, 2025, 06:52:27 pm
content: Quote from: Siwastaja on February 26, 2025, 06:06:03 amThe first CD player available in Europe and the US, the Philips CD100, did include oversampling, as did all of the following Philips players and derivatives, so solving the brick-wall filter issue from day one. It was only Sony, with their CDP101 who went non-oversampling, thus hitting audible issues from the start.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 26, 2025, 06:57:47 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on February 26, 2025, 06:44:36 pmReferences please.OED doesn't have the word.CED refers solely to Doctorowhttps://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/enshittificationMerriam-Webster refers solely to Doctorowhttps://www.merriam-webster.com/slang/enshittification

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 26, 2025, 06:59:04 pm
content: Quote from: Fried Chicken on February 26, 2025, 03:32:59 pmBoring. I enjoyed it. Thankfully, most people are now responding to posts by others, so the truncated title stays on the front page

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 26, 2025, 07:03:29 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on February 26, 2025, 06:57:47 pmAs LLMs are showing us, much of the important information in life is not written down, and is only passed on verbally, or by mimicry.Every variant of crapify, shitify, enshitify, encrapify, encrapification, enshitification and so on was in use when I was young. Maybe Doctorow's innovation was to add an odd extra "t" to the spelling.

author: Fried Chicken
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 26, 2025, 07:53:19 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on February 26, 2025, 06:34:05 pmNo I didn't

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 26, 2025, 08:20:43 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on February 26, 2025, 07:03:29 pmAh. The Humpty Dumpty argument.I would trust the OED; it's etymology is definitive.Doctors characterised a phenomenon, and gave it a name. It chimes with just about everyone.

author: showman
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2025, 01:19:35 am
content: Quote from: Siwastaja on February 26, 2025, 06:06:03 amThat makes absolutely no sense. I can take a sample of audio, literally write the ones and zeros as a text here even in Finnish (FIN16™ coding), say to you to interpret that as PCM and you can take that and reconstruct the sample without any changes or loss and listen to it. If I used another encoding, nothing would change. You would still get the exact representation, unless our crappy analog brains or hands made mistakes.If you said CIRC or EFM, that would make more sense, but like for vinyl, it is for correcting the crappyness of the physical medium / analog domain.Similarly the plane example above does not work with the modern fly by wire and glass cockpits. Is an emulated analog input or output still analog? If not, then why not? Why does an old Cessna have analog indicators, but a modern 787 LCDs? Is a side stick + digital processing worse than a yoke with direct analog hydraulic/mechanical controls?

author: Smokey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2025, 02:37:10 am
content: Quote from: Fried Chicken on February 26, 2025, 07:53:19 pmyou kind of did though."I *really* like analog" != "Analog electronics were abandoned too quickly/enthusiastically"much like..."I really like horses" != "horses were replaced by cars too quickly/enthusiastically"

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2025, 02:56:00 am
content: Nevermind the TITLE; This is the best thread I've read this year!Topic here has drawn a lot of talent, to the replies, and a great field for inventions (coming down the pike)!

author: Fried Chicken
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2025, 04:13:35 am
content: Quote from: Smokey on February 27, 2025, 02:37:10 amWell the original title said kind of a bunch of nothing, and the new one kind of summarizes what my original post says....One more piece of analog tech that was abandoned too quickly IMO: Carburetors.People think they were abandoned b/c of power, fuel economy, tailpipe emissions, cost, etc.NOPE.The float bowls would evaporate gas and that was considered a huge no-no.Especially on motorcycles: carburetation and bikes goes together like chocolate and peanut butter. Throttle response like nothing else; the bike really comes to life as it warms up.

author: Analog Kid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2025, 04:20:13 am
content: Quote from: Fried Chicken on February 27, 2025, 04:13:35 amWhat?? "I *really* like analog" isn't "nothing": it's a perfectly good declarative statement. Simple and straightforward.How is that chopped liver?

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2025, 08:24:17 am
content: Quote from: showman on February 27, 2025, 01:19:35 amInvalid argument.The difference is whether theindicationis displayed as anangleordigits. Themechanismthat generates that indication is irrelevant.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2025, 12:02:02 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on February 26, 2025, 08:20:43 pmInteresting. You trust the etymology in the book you said doesn't have the word. Right. Makes perfect sense.I tried Googling enshitification, both with 2 t's and 1 t. It gives page after page of references to Cory Doctorow and nothing else. I'm suspecting this was a gaming exercise. Taking a perfectly common slang term, and turning it exclusive. Essentially fulfilling part of Cory Doctorow's claims.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2025, 01:12:35 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on February 27, 2025, 12:02:02 pmEr. I wouldpreferthe OED, but the definition isn't there. In the absence of that, I'll use other decent sources. What would you do?QuoteAh. Conspiracy theory time. Your next statement will be along the lines of "I'm rightbecauseThe Truth is being hidden". Unimpressive.Who wouldbotherto game that? Certainly not Doctorow; he doesn't need that sort of naive adulation.Given ensihttification was chosen as "word of the year" at least once, it is not surprising that search engine results are the Doctorow definition.So, please provide sources for glory of "enshittification". (With apologies to Lewis Carroll)

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2025, 01:17:02 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on February 27, 2025, 01:12:35 pmI can't think of anyone who appears to crave naive adulation more than Doctorow. He's in the Malcolm Gladwell league.

author: Xena E
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2025, 07:56:33 pm
content: Quote from: themadhippy on February 25, 2025, 07:59:37 pmBFs wrist watch, similar idea, perhaps we can call it binary coded time, he's able to read time from it with no apparent propagation delay, but I don't think it will catch on

author: Analog Kid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2025, 09:42:06 pm
content: Who's "BF"?

author: AVGresponding
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2025, 06:11:36 am
content: Quote from: Analog Kid on February 27, 2025, 09:42:06 pmSeriously?OK, I'll bite, it's an abbreviation for "Boy Friend". On the other hand, if you're asking for his identity, ahm oot

author: schmitt trigger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2025, 05:03:56 pm
content: Love your BF’s watch!I am sure it is a major conversation piece.Regarding your kitchen clock, my guess by the number of “digits” is that it is read H:M:S left to right, and thus it is displaying a time of13:13:47Amirite?

author: Analog Kid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2025, 08:52:12 pm
content: Quote from: AVGresponding on February 28, 2025, 06:11:36 amYes, seriously; that's why I'm asking.My question to you is: when are you going to give up your stupid precious teal text and special font? Do you think that somehow endears you to the rest of us here? Well, it doesn't.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2025, 10:24:08 pm
content: Quote from: Analog Kid on February 28, 2025, 08:52:12 pmI'm particularly fond of it either, but so what? It is harmless, and I'm far more interested in the content and far less interested in the form.It looks like you are more interested in the form than the content.

author: Analog Kid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2025, 11:07:16 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on February 28, 2025, 10:24:08 pmIn this case, yes. Since the guy (assuming here) has dinged me in the past over trivial bullshit, I thought this a good opportunity to ding him back.So sue me.

author: showman
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 01, 2025, 01:43:52 am
content: Quote from: tggzzz on February 27, 2025, 08:24:17 amI don't think it is irrelevant in the context of this thread since for many people the mechanism is really important. I know what you mean and yes, no plane will ever show those things purely on a numeric (is this perhaps a better term instead of digital here?) display, but would still call it "digitally emulated analog", "digitally emulated electromechanical" or something along those lines.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 01, 2025, 01:52:55 am
content: QuoteYep.I've also have a more traditional clock for the living room

author: Analog Kid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 01, 2025, 02:12:21 am
content: Quote from: showman on March 01, 2025, 01:43:52 amLike the difference between thisand this.Both give an "analog" display (rather than a strictly numeric one), but one is digitally rendered.

author: showman
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 01, 2025, 02:25:16 am
content: Well yeah. And after seeing those images I remembered that there is a proper term for thishttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skeuomorph#Virtual_examplesinstead of the emulation ones I proposed.For those not enjoying the special colors and fonts, you can install Stylus extension and add this css for eevblog.com/forum. Should make everyone equal, at least does for me.Code:.post span {font: 13px "Verdana", "Arial", "Helvetica", sans-serif !important;color: black !important;}.signature span {color: black !important;}.list_posts.smalltext span {font: 11px "Verdana", "Arial", "Helvetica", sans-serif !important;color: black !important;}.bbc_standard_quote span {font-size: 10px !important;}

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 01, 2025, 08:26:21 am
content: Quote from: showman on March 01, 2025, 02:25:16 amEr, care to give us a reason why that wouldbenefitus and why we would want to be equal?

author: Analog Kid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 01, 2025, 10:38:58 am
content: Quote from: themadhippy on March 01, 2025, 01:52:55 amOK, I give up: how does that work? I have no effing clue.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 01, 2025, 01:04:38 pm
content: QuoteA 32 and a bit khz crystal osculates into a 4060 to get 2 pulses a second which are fed into 1/2 a 4013 (no a 2006.5 wont work) and we end up with 1 pulse a second,that goes into a 6 bit counter used to display the seconds leds and an AND gate is also fed from the 32,16,8 and 4 output ,the AND spits out a pulse when the counter reaches 60 that is both used to reset the counter back to the start and send a clock pulse to the next counter that drives the minutes leds which is exactly the same as the first but it advances 1 step per minute,its AND gate spits out a pulse every 60 minutes that feeds a 5 bit counter that drives the hours leds, that counter resets when it gets to 24,all pretty simples really. The 5 leds at the top of the clock are the hours,the bottom 6 leds the minutes and the middle 6 the seconds

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 01, 2025, 01:19:04 pm
content: Quote from: Analog Kid on March 01, 2025, 02:12:21 amAnd the digitally rendered one is so much better. You have full control of the dynamics of how they respond to fast attacks. There used to be PPMs (peak program meters) which tried to make the sluggish mechanics of a meter follow the peaks, but like the old vacumm tube magic bar displays, a massless pointer is so much more controllable.

author: Fried Chicken
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 01, 2025, 02:19:55 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on March 01, 2025, 01:19:04 pmYeah except now you've altered the behavior from a standard for a given device and/or potentially introduced lags and delays into how it displays making it an enshittified form of an analog display.Not to mention the digital version could very easily have bugs that will cause it to display erroneous information. It takes a huge amount of overheard to digitally simulate an analog signal. It's not just about the potentially superior "user interface" of continuous circuitry, but also its underlying functioning.I never use the "analog display" on the DMM, b/c it's a fake simulation.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 01, 2025, 02:26:12 pm
content: Quote from: Fried Chicken on March 01, 2025, 02:19:55 pmSo, you're saying things only work well, when they are properly engineered? Brilliant observation there. The problem with the mechanical VU meter is its fundamentally incapable of giving you the information you want when setting levels, assessing headroom, and so on.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 01, 2025, 04:02:11 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on March 01, 2025, 02:26:12 pmCompare and contrast that observation of yours with the observation you made two hours earlier:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/sunshine-coast-university-women-only-engineering-professorship/msg5834909/#msg5834909

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 01, 2025, 04:17:34 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on March 01, 2025, 04:02:11 pmYou seem to be losing the plot.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 01, 2025, 04:45:16 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on March 01, 2025, 04:17:34 pmNoting inconsistencies isn't "losing the plot".

author: Xena E
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 01, 2025, 05:06:33 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on March 01, 2025, 08:26:21 amBut, we are all equal, it's just that some of us are more equal than others.As for the font colour thing, who gives the furry crack of a rats arse what text colour members choose, it's up to them. If readers are offended or unable to read a post, another option is they can just scroll past, and ignore it.Quote from: AVGresponding on February 28, 2025, 06:11:36 amPoint to AVGrespondingAs for bargraph or faux Analog displays on DMMsnope... waste of time/useless, why wouldn't you use a scope?Not to say I don't like old Analog test meters, my most prized home workshop ornaments are an Avo, a Simpson, and Sanwar MMs, also a Taylor bridge complete with a "magic eye" null indicator, (that's as fast as you can "see")It's horses for course's people, everything has its forte.X

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 01, 2025, 05:22:25 pm
content: Quote from: Xena E on March 01, 2025, 05:06:33 pmThere are times when adjusting something where a smoothly varying indication would be quite useful, like adjusting for a peak. However, most DMMs with a bargraph don't have a good enough implementation to be all that effective. They usually have too few elements, and too slow an update time.

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 01, 2025, 06:00:40 pm
content: The Analogue bargraphshouldupdate much faster than the display update rate. For instance, on older Flukes, the display update is 2-3/sec whilst the bargraph updates at 25Hz [Edit: using a separate ADC]. Sadly there are too many cheaper DMMs that update the bargraph at the same rate as the display - nowthoseare a waste of time.

author: Xena E
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 01, 2025, 06:29:05 pm
content: Yeah, the cheapos are dire.Can't remember the make, (Borrowed when visiting a work customer.) However, it had the most shitty display on a DMM 'with bargraph' I've ever seen, hadtwocurved vertical bargraphs either side of the relatively tiny digital display... just made it look like a crappy stereo with twin VUs.What's the point? Just make the digital display bigger, (ironically it was a scopemeter, the scope itself was reasonably good and useful.)X

author: SteveThackery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 01, 2025, 08:11:19 pm
content: Quote from: Fried Chicken on February 27, 2025, 04:13:35 amActually you are wrong about this. Evaporation from the float bowl can be handled by a charcoal canister, like other evaporative losses . But that aside, the main reason for abandoning carburettors is that they cannot be used successfully in a closed-loop mixture control system. It is trivial to control the fuel:air mixture of a fuel injection system by varying the duration of the electrical pulses sent to the fuel injectors. Apart from being easy, the fuel:air ratio can be changed instantly - from one power stroke to the next - making for a highly responsive system.There were a few attempts at electronically controlled carburettors. Ford's Motorcraft VV (variable venturi) carb had an electronically controlled air valve. It was notoriously unreliable. Hitachi, Nikki, Keihin and others also released carbs with various electronically controlled elements. In general they were characterised by complexity, high cost, reduced reliability and mediocre performance. The ongoing development of fuel injection systems meant that they were soon cost-competitive with those fancy carbs, yet worked far better.There is no reason to think carbs were abandoned too early. They were abandoned at exactly the right time: when FI systems became cost competitive but with superior performance, and when carbs could no longer perform well enough to meet emissions performance. Carbs are just nowhere near accurate or responsive enough to use in a closed loop emissions control system.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 01, 2025, 08:19:31 pm
content: Quote from: SteveThackery on March 01, 2025, 08:11:19 pmYep. Its not entirely accurate to say fuel injection was about meeting emissions regulation, but it certainly was important for that. It was originally used to increase power. The first systems used a large clumsy box of electronics that cost a lot. So, it only went into high end cars. It spread when integration brought down the size and cost, and pushed up the reliability. That also happened to be around the time it was becoming an important tool to meet emissions regulations.There were some notoriously unreliable early fuel injected cars.

author: Fried Chicken
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 02, 2025, 05:11:14 am
content: Maybe in Europe, but in the U.S. I'm pretty sure it was the inherent evaporation of the gasoline into the intake that was the big no-no.Also the first fuel injection was mechanical, pioneered by Mercedes. Regardless, carbureted engines are a joy, and given the choice I'd prefer a carbureted bike over an EFI one, easily. Carbureted bikes were sold through 2008 or even later.

author: SteveThackery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 02, 2025, 11:15:52 am
content: Quote from: coppice on March 01, 2025, 08:19:31 pmTrue, but the discussion is not about the benefits of fuel injection, it's about whether carburettors were abandoned too soon. The answer to that is obviously and emphatically "no". We are well rid of them.Quote from: Fried Chicken on March 02, 2025, 05:11:14 amAre you serious? Fuel injection - done properly, of course - is better in every way. I've heard drivel about how you can fix a carburettor at the side of the road, but you can't fix an FI system. Carbs almost never break part way through a journey and no, it isn't realistic to fix them at the side of the road. But in the 51 years I've been motoring and riding motorcycles I've never had a carb OR a fuel injection system fail mid-journey.So bearing in mind that FI is better than carburettors in every objective way, whatrationalreasons do you have to prefer carbs over FI, and why are carburetted engines a "joy" ? You've obviously never ridden a bike with an Amal Mk1 Concentric - probably the worst motorcycle carburettor ever made.

author: Fried Chicken
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 02, 2025, 02:27:31 pm
content: Quote from: SteveThackery on March 02, 2025, 11:15:52 amThrottle response.

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 02, 2025, 04:28:33 pm
content: Quote from: Fried Chicken on March 02, 2025, 02:27:31 pmDon't worry, if you prefer the slower and more inaccurate throttle response of a carburetor, this is easy to emulate in a modern digitally controlled fuel injection system

author: Xena E
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 02, 2025, 04:35:32 pm
content: Quote from: SteveThackery on March 02, 2025, 11:15:52 amThose shit old things piss morebenzinpetrol over the floor than they do into the intake manifoldFull disclosure: owner and enjoyer of a 1985 XBR500 and the suboptimal carburettor that it is attached to

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 02, 2025, 06:37:50 pm
content: Quote from: SteveThackery on March 02, 2025, 11:15:52 amFuel injection can be way better, but they have managed to produce some quite problematic implementations in the last decade or two, with poorly implemented mixed direct and inlet injection schemes which clog up badly. Electronics became widely deployed in three key areas of an engine at around the same time - electronic ignition, electronic fuel injection, and computer control of the overall engine operation. I think that makes it hard to isolate how much contribution each of them made to the overall improved performance of modern engines.

author: Analog Kid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 02, 2025, 08:40:16 pm
content: Quote from: Xena E on March 02, 2025, 04:35:32 pmRemember, the whole world doesn't run on 50 Hz.

author: Xena E
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 02, 2025, 09:10:51 pm
content: Quote from: Analog Kid on March 02, 2025, 08:40:16 pmOnly the civilised part sweetie.

author: Andy Chee
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 03, 2025, 02:23:37 am
content: Quote from: Fried Chicken on March 02, 2025, 02:27:31 pmQuick throttle response is not created by the carburetor. Quick throttle response is created by the lack of a long intake runner between carburetor and cylinder.Motorcycles often use a multiple carburetor setup, each carb sits directly atop each cylinder, thus effectively eliminating the intake runner.Eliminating intake runners on passenger vehicles by using multiple carbs in the same fashion, never took hold as far as I know. Certainly not before EFI became cheaper and more reliable.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 03, 2025, 04:41:00 am
content: I think it's largely a moot point nowadays when electric motors excel at instant torque. For the most part, gas only cars are made obsolete by hybrids and EVs. And before anyone mentions manual transmissions, the whole need to shift gears is to work around engines having a narrow range of optimum operating RPM. Few EVs shift gears as that ended up being a net disadvantage compared to a simple fixed gearing.

author: Andy Chee
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 03, 2025, 05:04:52 am
content: Quote from: NiHaoMike on March 03, 2025, 04:41:00 amIn the context of this thread, the better EV analogy would be PWM vs. linear voltage motor control.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 03, 2025, 05:48:06 am
content: Piling on late in this thread. After skimming the whole thing the only part I can agree with is that analog interfaces to humans are often preferable. Primarily displays.But in my opinion, having worked in the field during the transition there are two reasons that digital took over. It is easier to design, and easier to manufacture. While a few geniuses like Widlar could come up with analog designs that did wonderful things, the run of the mill engineer/designer couldn't really do much beyond variants of existing circuits. While digital has constraints (fan outs, races, transitions and the like) the garden variety designer could weld together a digital circuit and more often than not it would work, and corrections for problems weren't as difficult as in the analog world. Similar thing on the fab side. The fundamental concept of digital is to reduce all of the possible circuit conditions to two states that are easy to tell apart. And you can have a lot of product variation and still achieve that. Transistor gains a little low. No problem. Leakage a little high. Not an issue. No need to match or balance transistors or any of that messy stuff.While we could have had many wonderful things by now if we had skipped digital all together it would have been nowhere near as rich and varied as the world we actually live in. My organization was one of the last to abandon analog simulation, operating an EAI Simstar well into the 1990s. Conversion off of that onto pure digital simulations was painful at first, but quickly paid off with richer, more detailed simulations and far easier programming to different dynamic systems. And eliminated all of the problems of calibration.

author: Fried Chicken
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 03, 2025, 07:00:08 am
content: Quote from: Siwastaja on March 02, 2025, 04:28:33 pm

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 03, 2025, 08:33:29 am
content: Quote from: Fried Chicken on March 03, 2025, 07:00:08 amPlease don't quote me for something I never said.

author: Fried Chicken
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 03, 2025, 02:58:37 pm
content: Quote from: Siwastaja on March 03, 2025, 08:33:29 amI'm not sure what happened here.Ride a carbureted bike and realize the amazing throttle response fuel injection hasn't had since the old Mercedes V8 with the mechanical fuel pump (that drank gas like a fish water)

author: SteveThackery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 03, 2025, 05:00:09 pm
content: Quote from: Fried Chicken on March 03, 2025, 02:58:37 pmI think you are missing an important point. Sub-125cc bikes aside, you cannot buy a bike these days without fuel injection and compliance with demanding emissions regulations. Carburreted bikes won't come even close to meeting current regulations.Therefore, when you compare carbed bikes with FI bikes, you are not remotely comparing like with like. The FI bike has to be emissions compliant above all else; driveability, throttle response, etc, are always secondary to regulatory compliance.As it happens I reject your assertion that carbed bikes have a better throttle response, but even if you acknowledge it to be true, we are really saying thatpre-emission-controlledbikes have a better response than modern compliant ones. It's not carbs vs FI, it's pre- vs post-emission-controlled bikes.If throttle response really is better from a carb, they'd fit carbs to race bikes, wouldn't they?

author: Smokey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 03, 2025, 07:53:44 pm
content: Quote from: Fried Chicken on March 03, 2025, 02:58:37 pmI would love to ride a carbureted bike, but it won't start after sitting in the garage for a few months

author: schmitt trigger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 03, 2025, 08:19:32 pm
content: Quote from: SteveThackery on March 03, 2025, 05:00:09 pmThis, exactly.Electronic Fuel Injection is capable of running at stoichiometric ratios under all conditions, acceleration included.Carbureted vehicles enrich the F/A ratio during acceleration, resulting in a power spike, but also an emissions spike.

author: Fried Chicken
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 03, 2025, 10:41:49 pm
content: Quote from: schmitt trigger on March 03, 2025, 08:19:32 pmAnd throttle response

author: Analog Kid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 03, 2025, 10:56:45 pm
content: Quote from: Fried Chicken on March 03, 2025, 10:41:49 pmAs the bike rider, I can see how you would enjoy that.As the guy following behind you, breathing your exhaust, not so much.

author: SteveThackery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 03, 2025, 11:44:02 pm
content: Quote from: schmitt trigger on March 03, 2025, 08:19:32 pmYes, indeed. But even better, the FI system can also NOT run at stoichiometric, should the manufacturer choose. The ability to control every aspect of its behaviour just by changing some numbers in a table is one of the major benefits of EFI, and carbs cannot come even close to that level of control.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 04, 2025, 12:00:57 am
content: Quoteand thats why you should turn the fuel tap off.its not just there to annoy you when your trying to switch to reserve whilst overtaking

author: Fried Chicken
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 04, 2025, 03:43:13 am
content: Quote from: Analog Kid on March 03, 2025, 10:56:45 pmA well carbureted bike will hardly smell. We never saw carbureted bikes with catalytic converters.EFI doesn't inherently produce a cleaner exhaust. Most bikes out there being ridden stink to high heaven b/c people run their own exhausts and don't tune them right (because tuning costs a fortune, b/c EFI sucks. Carbs just need re-jetting).

author: SteveThackery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 04, 2025, 09:27:55 am
content: Quote from: Fried Chicken on March 04, 2025, 03:43:13 amThis is simply wrong on so many levels.Firstly, yes, there were plenty of bikes made with carbs and catalytic converters. But, they were two-way cats and utilised air injection into the exhaust. Two-way cats don't need a stoichiometric ratio. Unfortunately two-way cats do not reduce NOx emissions so they only had a short window before being replaced with three-way cats.This nonsense about FI bikes "stinking" when the exhaust has been modded is, as I said, nonsense. At least, it is nonsense on modern bikes. The reason? Because the ECU uses the lambda sensor to ensure that the mixture is correctly stoichiometric, and that control loop is not broken by fitting a different silencer, because it all happens before the exhaust gases even get to the silencer.I will concede that there are some old bikes out there with EFI but no closed loop control. These bikes stink when compared with modern bikes simply because they emit vastly more pollutants, but that is true even with carburreted bikes and regardless of the silencer. We've all got used to vehicles with three-way cats, such that any bike or car from before the three-way-cat era does make a surprising amount of stink.I'm beginning to realise that it's a waste of time correctingAnalog Kid(EDIT: sorry, I meant Fried Chicken) on this matter because he has his heels well dug in, and unfortunately facts won't change that.

author: Analog Kid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 04, 2025, 09:45:05 am
content: Quote from: SteveThackery on March 04, 2025, 09:27:55 amWhat the hell are you talking about, Steve?How do I "have my heels well dug in"?Are you referring to your pissing match/argument about bikes?I know next to nothing about bikes, so you see I cannot have a dog in that fight.Unless you're referring to something else?Maybe you got me mixed up with someone else.

author: SteveThackery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 04, 2025, 02:36:02 pm
content: Quote from: Analog Kid on March 04, 2025, 09:45:05 amOMG, I'm so sorry!! I should have referred toFried Chicken. Please accept my sincere apologies, Analog Kid. I've corrected my post.

author: Fried Chicken
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 04, 2025, 04:24:08 pm
content: Quote from: SteveThackery on March 04, 2025, 09:27:55 amI don't think you've been out riding in a long time. I can tell you right now, almost everyone out here has modified their exhaust in some way (usually cat delete), hasn't tinkered with the EFI, and almost all those bikes stink to high heaven...I do not know if a single carbureted bike with a catalytic converter... but bikes here didn't get catalytic converters until after 2010 (except BMW bikes following European standards). Carbureted bikes were sold here until 2008 iirc.

author: SteveThackery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 04, 2025, 04:35:20 pm
content: Quote from: Fried Chicken on March 04, 2025, 04:24:08 pmI dunno, is two days a long time? It was on my Moto Guzzi Mandello V100S. Also in my garage is a Honda VTR (with the largest carburettors ever fitted to a motorcycle) and a Royal Enfield Meteor 350 (fuel injected, obviously).Quote from: Fried Chicken on March 04, 2025, 04:24:08 pmWellof course! Becausethey've deleted the cat!!Honestly, who is this guy?

author: Fried Chicken
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 04, 2025, 05:51:55 pm
content: Quote from: SteveThackery on March 04, 2025, 04:35:20 pmEven without a cat, if it's tuned right, it won't stink to high heaven, carbed or EFI, but the odds of it being tuned right are higher with a carburetoretor b/c you don't have to spend thousands in gear to have it tuned properly. Of course I recognize this is a real-world practical matter, but what matters is the potato you end up eating, not the potato you intended to grow.Regardless the small amount of stink on a tuned catless carb vs efi bike makes no difference. EFI wasn't implemented for exhaust emissions (it was again implemented because the float bowls would evaporate and california couldn't handle that. Same reason you have retarded gas fill nozzles, and the same reason you have those retarded convoluted gas cans, at least in the u.s.).I guess I should add here: the other benefits of carburetors vs EFI other than ease of modification/servicing (re-jetting vs buying a power commander): lack of complexity, low cost, can be tuned with a screwdriver, and of course the throttle response and general amazing feel of a carbureted bike vs the EFI bikes that they've enshittified to such an extreme, you have almost no connection between your right wrist and what the actual engine is doing.I guess the tradeoff with carbs (an this is a general trend with all continuous computation) is the skill vs having a monkey with thousands of dollars in computer gear pushing buttons.

author: SteveThackery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 04, 2025, 09:47:12 pm
content: OK, as I thought, this is pointless. Dunning-Kruger comes immediately to mind, big time.@Fried Chicken: your last post is a great one to end our off-topic discussion, so I won't waste more electrons on a rebuttal. You are welcome.

author: Fried Chicken
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 05, 2025, 02:22:48 am
content: Quote from: SteveThackery on March 04, 2025, 09:47:12 pmCarburetors will also survive an EMP blast in the event of a nuclear war or the sun misbehaves.Fuck EFI.

author: Andy Chee
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 05, 2025, 04:19:29 am
content: Quote from: Fried Chicken on March 05, 2025, 02:22:48 amUnless your vehicle still has distributor, points and coil ignition (magneto ignition for bikes), your ignition system computer is also going to be screwed by EMP blast.To survive EMP blast, you really need a diesel engine.Quote from: Fried Chicken on March 04, 2025, 05:51:55 pmEFI wasn't invented in the USA, therefore California is irrelevant.

author: NE666
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 05, 2025, 09:26:43 am
content: Quote from: Fried Chicken on March 05, 2025, 02:22:48 amThe word 'survive' is doing an awful lot of work in that sentence.

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 05, 2025, 09:59:13 am
content: Think about it! After nuclear war, you have a working carburetor. The car which uses it obviously does not work, and everything else's destroyed too, but you can pet your working carburetor, go to sleep hand-in-hand with your working carburetor, even write a valentine's card to her in your underground bunker. Isn't analog technology great? Fuck EFI!

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 05, 2025, 10:52:27 am
content: IMHO a bicycle, horse or donkey are better and more reliable modes of transportation when the world goes haywire. Recently there was a TV series called 'Earth Abides'. They where driving cars decades after the world went to crap. Yeah right...

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 05, 2025, 06:56:39 pm
content: Seriously though, special firmwares, or aftermarket ECUs are the #1 mods car enthusiasts do to improve throttle response and peak power - at the expense of emissions (and road legality of the vehicle).

author: BlownUpCapacitor
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 05, 2025, 08:54:53 pm
content: I feel about the same way with analog.As a much younger late 2000s born kid, I find analog and older electronics fascinating.I like old Tek scopes because they justwork. A good example is my 7904 with 7B85, 7B80, 7A26, and 7A19 plug-ins. I can go click click, quickly adjust delay time to converge the sine wave/random signal to one cycle, and boom: I have my delta time measurement. Compared to my Hantek DSO2D15, which is more modern, the V0 knob is extremelly unresponsive and all the knobs have this annoying delay to change settings. It just feels all gunky and slow. My other digial integrated but analog scopes such as my 2465 also just work well.I don't know, maybe it's just that the Hantek is bad quality. I've never had my hands on a decent quality "modern" DSO so my Hantek is my only standard to modern DSOs.Old electronics also tend to be cheap. My 7904 with all the plug-ins cost me $100 at the e-recycle while the Hantek set me back $200. The Hantek was kind of a waste of cash.In old electornics you can also see the interesting design choices made.

author: dzseki
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 05, 2025, 11:03:37 pm
content: Just thought to throw in. CRT Projection is something I've spent a good decade on.Interactive big screen display was of interest since the introduction of TV. There have been some very crazy solutions for this, but by the 1980's CRT projection became dominant. Here three small monochrome (R-G-B) picture tubes with a size of about scope tube (~ 8x10 cm) could throw picture in a 2-3 meter wide screen in a properly light controlled room. Usually driven from 480i/525i signals.I am sure many of you have seen some of these even on planes or conference rooms back in the days.But some of these stuff have been engineered really to the limits, by 1995 the best of these projectors could resolve 2048x1536 pixels at 75/85Hz refresh -still analog in its veins! Think about where the computation tech were in those days in terms of exploiting these resolutions... Needless to say these projectors were crazy expensive too, >40k USD back in the day! These very high end projectors have been used in mission critical simulators (eg. military training rigs).Later on these projectors "flooded" the surplus market and many of these projectors found new homes in home theater enthusiasts' basements etc. I think the peak was around 2005-2010 for these.Digital projection came a long way since then and now dominates the whole segment without a question. Still it is fascinating to think about that a 30 years old analog projection technology can throw a really-really nice fullHD (1080p) picture, even by today's standards.PS.: I also have one of these higher-end projectors, although not in use anymore.

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2025, 06:58:14 am
content: Quote from: BlownUpCapacitor on March 05, 2025, 08:54:53 pmNo, it's a completely misled example, nothing to do with analog vs. digital. The reason Hantek sucks it's a cheap Chinese instrument. You would have not been able to afford the Tektronix with the equivalent amount of money you now spent on the Hantek. Now as a hobbyist you can buy oscilloscopes new. Back then you didn't, you would have most likely borrowed some 1960's very primitive scope, possibly broken and started by fixing it. Stuff like 4 channels was beyond the imagination of most.I can assure you that current Tektronix (and other premium brands) have smooth UI, even when they are digital. And much more.Vintage tech is a nice hobby in the sense that you are able to score some tech that would have cost as much as ten new cars back then. Comparing them to Chinesium which costs one hundredth of a car however is not a valid comparison of tech back then vs tech now.It is easy to feel nostalgic about good old times when you didn't need to live during that time. But fact is that electronics, as hobby or as profession, is made easier and cheaper than ever before.

author: munorc
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2025, 01:09:03 am
content: The era of analog computers was fading fast when I started my engineering education. I live very much in the digital world, building and deploying HPC systems.However, I preserved a few relics of the past. One is a Donner 3500 Analog computer, all vacuum tube based. +/-100V working voltage.I have been going through it and have most of it back up and running. All functional.

author: Analog Kid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2025, 01:56:33 am
content: Wow--nice looking unit there!

author: munorc
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2025, 02:06:03 am
content: An even earlier device, a Philbrick GAP/R USA-3 Universal Stabilized Amplifier. One of the original Operational Amplifiers.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2025, 08:20:40 am
content: Quote from: munorc on March 07, 2025, 01:09:03 amSomeone who used a bookcase-sized one told me that you quickly learned to be careful when moving the patch cords.Much like this calibrator...

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2025, 11:28:17 am
content: This is nonsense. Analogue electronics have not been abandoned. There are still plenty about. There are too many examples to list.