The big ebay LED floodlight scam. - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: BigClive
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 28, 2014, 01:12:33 pm
content: While setting up a new workbench area I decided to make it camera compatible. After deliberating for a while I chose LED floodlights as the new local lightsource and ordered a couple on ebay from a UK supplier. Plus of course a random selection of others from other sellers as tends to happen.The lights duly arrived, and I decided to do a mini teardown of one right there and then, catching the disappointment for your viewing pleasure.As you'll see, they came up with some interesting techniques for case-grounding and reduction of thermal dissipation.

author: nihilism
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 28, 2014, 01:40:28 pm
content: Chinese Watts are approximately 50% of AU/US/UK Watts.Maybe you could try running them off 480V or send them to Mr Photoninduction.

author: bktemp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 28, 2014, 01:48:04 pm
content: When the "20W" LED is pointed towards the camera (at 8:50) there is some flickering in the image. It looks like there is no mains filtering capacitor in the LED driver and the LED current is modulated by the mains frequecy.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 28, 2014, 01:56:11 pm
content: "I think that just a labeling error"I just couldn't stop laughing while hearing all those phrases trying to justify those floodlights.

author: LoyalServant
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 28, 2014, 02:39:55 pm
content: Quote from: nihilism on October 28, 2014, 01:40:28 pmMight not make a big enough boom for him...

author: Excavatoree
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 28, 2014, 03:17:11 pm
content: Quote from: LoyalServant on October 28, 2014, 02:39:55 pmIt would if he connected it to his big-ass, high voltage capacitor. (The one that makes things disappear with a huge BOOM!)

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 28, 2014, 03:29:24 pm
content: What an incredible POS! Now it is just waiting for the driver with its Sunshine electrolytes to fail, big badaboom.What did you pay for it? Even 4 pounds would be too much for this garbage. Stick to the A brands or why not build it yourself not with one 10W or one 20W led but with 10, 1W MP leds or 36 medium powered. At least you do not get many shades as need with video.

author: Falcon69
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 28, 2014, 05:05:25 pm
content: Hmm, I bought the 10w 12v dc RGB versions. There are no ballasts in side. I wonder if the electronics have tuned them down to the 4.3watts as yours are getting.

author: Towger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 28, 2014, 05:45:25 pm
content: I thought those 10w RGB versions just used large resistors...I have 20m of 600 5050 (double row) RGB Led strips, specs say 144w per 5m at 12. They draw 70w+ at 12v, 96w at 13v and so on.Yep, Chinese watts are different from the rest of the world.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 28, 2014, 07:47:48 pm
content: Not sure. When you paid a Mercedes price, you expect to get a Mercedes. When you paid a Chevy price, you should expect a Chevy .insisting on a Mercedes at a Chevy price is probably irrational, or at least unrealistic.

author: cowana
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 28, 2014, 07:48:50 pm
content: I tore down one of the 230v, 10W RGB floodlights recently.It had a 12v (nominal) 600mA CC driver feeding the control board. The control board then used big resistors to limit the current through each string to 300mA.This means the power is:1 channel = 300mA (3W)2 channels = 300mA per channel (6W)3 channels = enters constant current at 600mA, resulting in ~200mA per channel (6W).When powered off a normal 12v supply, it gives the full 9 or 10W with all channels on.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 28, 2014, 08:52:52 pm
content: Quote from: dannyf on October 28, 2014, 07:47:48 pmA chevy with hotglued ignition wires?, no way, as he says in his topicname it is a scam, he probably paid for a 206 and got:

author: David_AVD
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 28, 2014, 09:05:31 pm
content: The only LED flood lights I've bought were 10W RGB units with DMX input and they did seem to draw approx 10W on full white.I've never been game to buy the mains powered versions as I can just imagine the quality of the power supply and the earth bond.

author: ignator
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 28, 2014, 09:09:46 pm
content: This clearly is "Not as described" case.Include a photo of the watt meter. And also include one of the 10 Watt power supply. Add a comment about it not complying to UK electric codes, as a bonding screw (or equivalent) is required for earthing, hot melt is not an approved alternative.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 28, 2014, 09:26:32 pm
content: Did you measure the actual LED current/voltage ?- I wouldn't trust one of those power meters to be anywhere near accurate at low, non-PFC'd loads.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 28, 2014, 09:34:39 pm
content: -hotglued ignition wires?-metaphorically speaking, yes.it is like buying a Chevy and complaining that it does drive as a Mercedes.

author: kingofkya
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 28, 2014, 09:40:32 pm
content: Its probbly do to the throw in whatever power conversion modules fits mentality. I have see a few with 7w to 20w labled on the converter because that makes sense with no adjustment screw.I have pretty much the same lamps as the first one but 10w marked with a bkprecision 2709B meter in line with the led I get around 7-8watts (can't remember specifics) on my 10watt lamp.also on the bottom left and right there is a screw hole where that ground wire is supposed to go...

author: BigClive
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 29, 2014, 01:15:02 am
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on October 28, 2014, 09:26:32 pmAs you'll see in the video I did ponder if it was an issue with the power meter not liking the load, so I plugged another older 20W LED floodlight in and it showed up as 20W. Likewise with the 10W units.They are also very visibly duller than a proper 10/20W light.Then of course there's the label on the 20 watt lights driver that says 10x1W and 30V at 0.3A that kinda gives its actual rating away.

author: cimmo
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 29, 2014, 07:29:27 am
content: Quote from: dannyf on October 28, 2014, 07:47:48 pmIf the vendor tells me it is a Mercedes and it isn't (regardless of the price) then he is committing fraud.But I guess to you that's merely capitalism? Charging whatever the market can bear and tell any lies to make the sale??You don't think there's anything wrong with that, do you?(Remind me never to do any form of business with you.)

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 29, 2014, 11:05:30 am
content: Quote from: BigClive on October 29, 2014, 01:15:02 amAs they do not have pfc, probably everything is even worse than you think if your power meter only measures apparent power, not real power. That might be like green floodlight actually is 10W, fake 20w is 5w and fake 10w is only 2.5w. IMO those led psus are quiet ineffective too. And on top of that LEDs used are of poor efficiency and produce a lot of heat while emitting not too much light.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 29, 2014, 11:07:19 am
content: QuoteYou sounded like an expert of turning down a job that was never offered to you,

author: LukeW
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 29, 2014, 12:56:10 pm
content: I wonder what is actually inside the driver module?I have seen some very nasty, cheap, 240VAC LED driver modules before that looked about the same size, and all that was inside them was simply a 0.47uF 250V polymer capacitor (China-X2 rated) a resistor and an antiparallel diode across the LED. Absolutely no galvanic isolation or proper current regulation at all.Also, with regards to thermal interface grease you do not need just a big blob of thermal grease in the middle of the heatsink, especially if that blob only ends up covering about 1/4 of the contact area between the device and the heatsink. You don't need much grease, just a very thin smear. But it should be a thin smear spread out across the entire contact area between the device and the heatsink. Ideally, you want a device-to-heatsink contact as much as possible, with direct thermal conduction across the metal-to-metal contact (or epoxy, ceramic or whatever the device package is) in contact with the heatsink across as much mating flat area as possible.But in practice the two surfaces aren't perfectly flat, although they should ideally be machined as flat as practical. Therefore there will always be minute surface imperfections that are filled with air, where the two surfaces don't quite touch. The purpose of thermal grease is to fill in those minute surface imperfections to create a perfectly flat surface on each of the two mating surfaces. This material has a higher thermal conductivity than air, so it's superior to an air gap, but its thermal conductivity is worse than metal, so it's better to have exposed metal as much as you can and only allow the grease to fill in the flat surface with a really thin amount, just where it's needed, and that's how thermal grease should be applied.

author: BigClive
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 29, 2014, 02:14:46 pm
content: The capacitive LED limiters are very common in LED lamps that use large series arrays of LEDs. Even Philips uses capacitive dropper circuitry in some of their lamps.My own preference with heatsink compound is to put a generous blob dead centre and then carefully apply the device and tighten it down so that the blob is spread out evenly in all directions filling all gaps and providing an even film between the two surfaces with no air pockets as might be caused by dabbing it on in multiple blobs or smearing it about in random spirals. I like to see a bit squish out every side of a flat surface to prove that even coverage has been achieved and that excess has been displaced.My biggest disappointment with the 20W fixtures originally referred to in this post are that they are actually well engineered cases and the LED is an absolutely standard style that can be changed if desired, as can the PSU. So pushing these nice lights out with cost and safety cuts is just silly.

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 29, 2014, 07:56:45 pm
content: Quote from: cimmo on October 29, 2014, 07:29:27 amThat's a bit unfair... and I agree with dannyf. He never said it was OK to misrepresent items, he simply said it's common with Chinese junk, and acting like we're surprised about it is being naively foolish.There are countless people in this world who will tell you whatever you want to hear if it helps them get a sale. Falling for it and blaming the seller is silly. Like buying magic beans and taking no responsibility for the transaction when they fail to grow into giant beanstalks

author: Falcon69
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2014, 02:22:51 am
content: Exactly C666I once had someone tell me to, 'Take it for a spin! It handles like a Ferrari'...but, it was a 10 speed bike!

author: cimmo
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2014, 05:48:31 am
content: Quote from: Corporate666 on October 29, 2014, 07:56:45 pmI see. So you too support unethical and even illegal behaviour - FRAUD, as long as it benefits the vendor.OK. Got it.

author: cimmo
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2014, 06:03:47 am
content: Quote from: Falcon69 on October 30, 2014, 02:22:51 am"like a Ferrari" is a metaphor. It is NOT a direct claim of provenance.But what if he made up/acquired some Ferrari badges and stuck them on, claiming it actually WAS a Ferrari bike?Too outrageous? Did you know that Porsche branded bicycles exist? (Yes, THAT Porsche.)In this case there has been deliberate FRAUD here labeling an item with characteristics it does not have. On top of the lies about the power ratings these items also have ILLEGAL grounding methods (none).I cannot understand why these fraudulent and potentially FATAL business practices are being defended - AT ALL. Even if they are "cheap".

author: Falcon69
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2014, 06:21:21 am
content: I agree, but importing items into a country with laws that regulate this stuff, you think customs is going to open a package, do a tear down, and see if it complies with local/city/state/country codes? There's not anyway of stopping this stuff.I am glad the original poster posted this, made me think about the ones I have bought and glad I have not hooked them up yet. I will be tearing mine down and fixing what needs to be fixed inside, if I can.One thing I need to do with mine, is remove and extend the sensors for the remote, as these lights go underneath a bridge and shines down and out over a pond. No way to get the remote to activate the light if the sensor is not in line of site of those IR remotes.Mine are 12 volt, so there is no ballast inside, or shouldn't be. I hope, electronically end electrically, everything is safe and the most I can expect to see is a crappy ground connection like the OP discovered. At least the casing is aluminum. A self tapping screw will solve that problem.

author: cimmo
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2014, 09:17:43 am
content: Quote from: wilfred on October 30, 2014, 07:39:10 amFair cop.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2014, 08:11:17 pm
content: I actually have some lamps that are rated not in Watts, lumens or other metrics but in Candlepowers. Ok they are older than me by a good few decades, having been made pre WWII in Germany. I remember looking at the stock card they had and the last incoming was in 1937. I think the 16 and 32 candlepower ratings are correct, they are a nice yellow light.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2014, 09:45:31 pm
content: QuoteParticularly since you, and the OP, are the importers. If there is any shit about, it will hit your fan as the responsible person.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2014, 01:11:00 am
content: QuoteYou are conflating two different things, or possibly I wasn't clear.Whether the kit works as advertised is not the issue - you, as the buyer, take that up with whoever sold you the stuff. Depending on middlemen, you could normally be dealing with a vendor, importer or manufacturer, but the that's between you and them.However, as the person bringing the stuff into the country, you are the importer. Your remedy for faults is still to got to whoever sold it to you (which would be the Chinese manufacturer). However, if the kit is dangerous or forbidden (maybe it is a phone blocker, or DIY tazer or similar, or burns down next doors house when your connect it to the mains) then whoever imported that kit gets the rocket up their arse from TPTB. And as the importer that is you. Your remedy is still to go after whoever sold it to you, but TPTB@your_country won't give a toss because it's you that brought it into their jurisdiction.QuoteDifferent issue complicated by end user licensing of software. The chips may or may not be fake (the only fake thing about them is the logo, and without that they would be functional equivalents that are not fakes). However, the user of the software warrants that he won't use it other then with FTDI chips, so however he got to be using the chips isn't relevant.Let's make it simpler: Fluke and the yellow cases. The end user can't be nicked for buying or using those, and the manufacturer similarly can't be nicked for making them (unless Fluke bring an action against them in China). It's the importer that carries the can. That is, whoever is responsible for bringing them into the country, and that is Sparkfun in this case. No argument there, right?OK, let's suppose that you get fed up of Sparkfun not supplying these yellow-cased instruments any more and decide to buy one direct from the manufacturer (presumably via Ebay). Now you are the importer and Fluke would be justified in coming after you, forcing you to destroy the kit and possibly billing you for their time in chasing you. You are on just as bad a legal footing as Sparkfun was.

author: cimmo
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2014, 02:11:55 am
content: Quote from: AcHmed99 on October 31, 2014, 12:26:30 amCheapest item I can find that is visually identical to 20w units the OP bought is around $23 AUD (~20USD).I do not consider this price to be ridiculously low enough to warrant 'setting alarm bells off'.But remember this, you and I might know the true value of legitimate components, but is the average DIY'er going to know what a 'reasonable' price is?This price point has been carefully chosen by the vendors. Just cheap enough to undercut any real 20w units but not so low as to set off those alarm bells. This also maximises their profits, of course and apparently for many people, that's all that matters.

author: cimmo
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2014, 02:18:15 am
content: Quote from: dunkemhigh on October 31, 2014, 01:11:00 amMy understanding (from watching BigClive's videos and from what was written in the first post of this thread) is that these dodgy units were bought from a UK based eBay seller and shipped from within the UK.BigClive did NOT directly import them.

author: Hardcorefs
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2014, 02:32:40 am
content: It is not the Wattage you need to be worrying about, many Chinese LED's have CRAP organic filters on the dies and as a result produce massive amounts of IR or UV. ( depending on their tech.)Which then makes you go blind…… another reason to NEVER use a microscope light with LED's or TH lamps…….Commonly called 'Why do I have Itchy eyes or see spots after using Chinese made LED's'

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2014, 03:00:41 am
content: QuoteOK, that's fair enough. My bad

author: David_AVD
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2014, 05:31:32 am
content: In the age of the Internet, does the term "importing" really have the same meaning? In reality you're just buying a retail item off someone who is in another country.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2014, 06:48:37 am
content: The company in the UK ithat sells it, is resposible that the product complies with the local safety laws eg it is tested for instance with TUV or KemaKeur. If it is not, than that same company vouches that it does comply and if for instance there is a lethal accident, that company may become responsible depending on the found circumstances .

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2014, 12:53:06 pm
content: QuoteThe internet doesn't change laws or traditions, it just makes it easier to break them.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2014, 03:49:04 pm
content: QuoteBut what does that do for you, in the case where the seller is a fly-by-night, thinly capitalized "company" that has no financial resources even if you win against it legally?Some people constantly wonder why stuff is so expensive off the internet. Well, that's why.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2014, 10:46:42 pm
content: Quote from: dannyf on October 31, 2014, 03:49:04 pmNothing..... the buyer is dead on the floor next to the malfunctioning device and his ghost is wondering if it had been wiser to buy a better device and the next of kin can forget about seeing a penny.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2014, 11:02:09 pm
content: Absolutely.That's the high cost of low prices that few cheapskates are wise enough to consider.

author: westfw
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2014, 02:07:18 am
content: QuoteReference? That would be a neat trick, given the technology involved.(and: where can I buy some chinese LEDs that emit "massive amounts of UV"? That would be great!)

author: David_AVD
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2014, 05:59:54 am
content: Quote from: dunkemhigh on October 31, 2014, 12:53:06 pmIt's changed the way we purchase goods to a significant degree with geography playing a smaller role. The global marketplace has been there for a long time, but it's now widely accessible.The traditional chain of manufacturer -> origin country distributor -> destination country distributor -> retailer -> end user has been shortened by a few steps in a lot of cases.Sure it doesn't change the regulatory laws, but now the end user is buying directly from another country. The end user often doesn't know about any of the regulations and the seller often doesn't care.

author: Hardcorefs
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2014, 09:14:58 am
content: Quote from: westfw on November 01, 2014, 02:07:18 amAnd you think that UV LED's only end up in the UV LED section of the market?

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2014, 09:52:54 pm
content: QuoteThat was exactly my point, and ignorance is not a defense.

author: TMM
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 02, 2014, 12:54:29 am
content: Quote from: ignator on October 28, 2014, 09:09:46 pmAnd achieve what? Having to send it back to china with postage costing almost as much as the item?The seller probably has no idea that they aren't to spec.

author: westfw
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 02, 2014, 02:39:09 am
content: QuoteIn fact, yes I do. Given that actual UV LEDs (lambda < 390nm) command quite a significant price premium over "blue", with the premium going up as lambda goes down, anyone that comes into a bunch of UV emitters would be better off selling them as UV lights... (10W UV floodlights sell for 2-3x the price for 10W "white" floodlights on eBay, for instance.)I'm willing to be proven wrong, by a reference.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 02, 2014, 01:27:11 pm
content: Quote from: Hardcorefs on October 31, 2014, 02:32:40 amLEDs don't normally produce much UV or IR.White LEDs are made with blue LEDs and a phosphor is used to emit the longer wavelengths. A small amount of light will probably be UV but not much. I suppose it's possible to build white LEDs with UV LEDs and a phosphor but it's not the most common way of doing it.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 03, 2014, 03:30:30 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on November 03, 2014, 02:25:27 pmCatch-22: How are you going to proof it is not up to spec without opening it and thereby forfitting any guarantee?

author: westfw
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 03, 2014, 05:27:32 pm
content: The external power meter should be OK for proof. a 20W lamp should not meter at less than 10W...I bought an LED desk lamp some time ago, which I think claimed 10W and was powered by a wall-wart clearly marked as providing less than 10W. However, it is "just right" for the purpose I had intended, so that's OK with me. (In fact, I wish I could get more. But they disappeared from the store...)It does seem odd that the under-rated part is the power supply, rather than the LED itself. I would think that the LED would be the more expensive part. (perhaps they are "reject" 20W LEDs whose failure modes are not visible at 10W?)

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 03, 2014, 11:25:25 pm
content: Quote from: westfw on November 03, 2014, 05:27:32 pmSome enterprising Chinese seller will figure out that putting a 30W power resistor in the housing and selling 30W LED lights (that actually draw 20W) will let him rebadge them as super awesome 50W lights!

author: Rufus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 04, 2014, 12:05:51 am
content: Quote from: Corporate666 on November 03, 2014, 11:25:25 pmYep the same way you can find lumps of concrete being used as PFC chokes.http://www.hardwaresecrets.com/blog/hantol-psu-fake-pfc-made-of-cement/220

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 05, 2014, 03:03:39 pm
content: I bought these:http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/361102408826?_trksid=p2059210.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AITutter garbage, they claim 27W because of the amount of LED's installed but even their power consumption claims do not match up. When I tested them they were well out, at 10V they draw 7W and at most at around 14V they draw 18-19W and by 15.5V the current draw is dropping so clearly already up to full power.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 05, 2014, 03:35:12 pm
content: [que chinese accent] a you westen people alway complain abou chinee produc. is very efficien . 20 watt led only draw 10 watt. westen produc no tha efficien ! [/end chinese accent]

author: mrflibble
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 05, 2014, 08:48:23 pm
content: Quote from: free_electron on December 05, 2014, 03:35:12 pmThat's racialist, that is!

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 05, 2014, 10:28:34 pm
content: It depends on how the "wattage" is defined.It is not uncommon (actually, almost universal), for example, for a CFL bulb consuming 6w of electricity to be labeled 60w for its ability to generate the same light as a 60w incandescent light bulb. This makes it easier for consumers to cross-shop light bulbs and makes the marketing easier too.You don't have to agree to its approach but you would be a fool for not recognizing its merit.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 05, 2014, 11:14:49 pm
content: If it is legit the product should be labelled "equivalent to a xx W incandescent bulb" or a graphic that is synonomous to that.But I am amazed that educated people here still buy those garbage products but warn everybody not to buy semiconductors from those sites. Wakeup call, leds are semiconductors don,t buy them there since the specs won,t be right, half is from the garbagecan of the local factory.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 05, 2014, 11:17:02 pm
content: Yeah. Some of them are genuinely surprised when their purchases at "incredibly low prices" turn out too good to be true, :0Those people are so smart that they are stupid.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 05, 2014, 11:27:12 pm
content: Quote from: dannyf on December 05, 2014, 10:28:34 pmIt's time to abandon the concept of output watts of a lightbulb and use the correct definition of efficacy in producing light: the lumen! while most will complain that lumens could be too hard to explain the truth is that a complete switch to lumens would end all of the dodgy labelling. You can label something as equivalent to the same output as something else (that is undefined) in W but that hardly ties the manufacturer down and is seen as a guide. Being made to state lumens + colour temperature would fix a standard that never need changing again!Of course such transparency is not in the interests of manufacturers. All we need is for the eu to stop worrying about vacuum cleaners that hardly get used and publish a standard of lumens to old incandescent watts and then abandon any labelling in terms of wattage as an indication of light output which it is not.

author: Paul Moir
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2014, 05:57:15 am
content: Contra argument there Simon: lumens are worthless.For example, I can give you 500 lux via a sodium vapour lamp no problem with awesome efficiency. Trouble is it'll all be at 590nm which doesn't work well for seeing certain things. IMO, efficacy cannot be reduced to intensity at all. You have to consider what you want done with the energy.I'll give you another more radical example. What if I gave you 1000 lux at 1000nm. Not very bright huh?(Obviously I deal with short-sighted standards that work in "scientifically" defined values without considering the desired effect.)

author: Towger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2014, 06:55:25 am
content: Quote from: Paul Moir on December 06, 2014, 05:57:15 amThat's why all bulbs should have their CRI (colour rendering index) on the box as well.... Que another argument re CRI.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 06, 2014, 07:56:09 am
content: Quote from: Paul Moir on December 06, 2014, 05:57:15 amThat is why i said lumens + colour temperature. You know many crap compact fluorecents there are out there that are 20W and marked as equivalent to 100W but put out barely visible yellow light (2700K) ? I was exmplasining the very point to someone at work yesterday morning, I could give them a 100W IR light and cliam on the box 100W but it would mean sod all.I replaced 1 23W CFL with 1 10W LED light, So i guess that CFL was not much cop, it may have used 23W but what the hell it did with it is unknown.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 06, 2014, 08:19:25 am
content: As an example see these two ebay listings, and the lumens and the watts, complete contradiction...... the the system of equivalent wattage is probably not official and anyone can put anything they like as you can argue know end what the power should be.http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/3W-B22-Bayonet-Candle-2835SMD-LED-Bulb-280-Lumen-Warm-White-Like-30W-/221378601265?_trksid=p2054897.l4275http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/B22-12-SMD-LED-2-5W-180LM-Warm-White-Dimmable-Candle-Bulb-40W/330878217417?_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D28111%26meid%3D7ee2bdfc4afc410083a854a4377f077d%26pid%3D100005%26prg%3D11472%26rk%3D4%26rkt%3D6%26sd%3D221378601265&rt=nc

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2014, 12:13:42 pm
content: QuoteSo now you need four engineering degrees to buy a light bulb?That's why sometimes people can be too smart for their own good.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 06, 2014, 12:38:04 pm
content: Quote from: dannyf on December 06, 2014, 12:13:42 pmYou should not need 4 degrees. But to be certain that what your buying will do what it says on the tin you do need to know a thing or two because the marketing wank has been allowed to get into specs and governments don't care to legislate on what can be sold and what it can be called.Lumen's are far more useful than watts. Maybe in the days of only incandescents watts was enough but ever since the existence of fluorescents it has lost it's usefulness. But the general public and legilation are always years if not decades behind a technology.Lumen's describes actual light output, watts does not, so it's a much better measure. You will need to add to that colour temperature at the very least.Of course if you don't want to have to think for yourself you can demand that your government carries out checks and controls on all imports and manufacturing as used to be the case.People so love to blame and criticise new ideas and technologies when in actual fact the problem is that all manufacturers and retailers care about is their profits and they actively don't care about quality and standards.There is no point in shooting the messenger! What you need 4 degrees for is to reverse engineer the marketing bollocks wank advertising and outright lies.

author: HighVoltage
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2014, 01:37:25 pm
content: So, what LED lights can be recommended.Is there a brand or supplier tat can be trusted.Or can you say in general that all low cost LED lights on ebay are junk?

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2014, 01:48:36 pm
content: I have some cree 60w/75w bulbs and they seem to be holding up well. I however doubt they are that efficient as the bulbs get pretty hot after a short period of usage.QuoteWith "in general" and "all" there, that's an impossible to answer question.I don't think it is true that all low cost LED lights on ebay are junk; I do think that most of them are junk, however.I would further amend it to say that you should assume that they are junk unless proven otherwise. That way, you will never be pissed off by your purchases,

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2014, 02:00:10 pm
content: Quote from: Paul Moir on December 06, 2014, 05:57:15 amThat's impossible because lux takes into account the sensitivity of the human eye which is 0 at 1000nm: you'll cook your retina before you'll see it!http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lux

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 06, 2014, 06:06:58 pm
content: Quote from: dannyf on December 06, 2014, 01:48:36 pmCorrect, if they have stated specs and they are reasonable there is a chance they are ok. If there are no specs or they are outlandish then obviously they are junk.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2014, 06:33:56 pm
content: You need a $100k sphere and calibrated equipment to correctly measure lumens.You can say almost anything on Ebay no-one who can correctly verify it, if a brand name like Philips, GE, Osram and the likes put a lumen rating on their product you know what you get.A lot of dubious products on Ebay not only do not live up to the claimed specs they are a life threatening unsafe product and a possible fire hazzard (as the floodlight with the glued grounding prooves).You are better off buying the genuine led parts and create your own ledlamps maybe not 230VAC but 12VDC instead of throwing your money away gambling at Ebay

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 06, 2014, 06:45:43 pm
content: You generally get what you pay for and amazon is now just another ebay except much of it is backed by amazon and they give that much of a shit that they won't pay tax or pay their employees decently so you can't really trust them to choose quality products can you ?

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2014, 06:45:59 pm
content: Quote from: Kjelt on December 06, 2014, 06:33:56 pmBut it's possible to use a basic light meter to give you a ballpark.QuoteYes, the ones designed to replace 12V halogens are good. Another option is to buy the bare diodes and build from scratch.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 06, 2014, 06:49:46 pm
content: With a basic tool and same conditions you can at least make a comparison between two products

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2014, 11:35:45 pm
content: QuoteSo true. 99% of what's sold on the bay is electronic junk.For people to think about using them in critical applications, light mains lighting, it shows just how stupid humans can be.

author: Paul Moir
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2014, 06:02:58 am
content: Quote from: Hero999 on December 06, 2014, 02:00:10 pmThank you, I learned something new today!

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 07, 2014, 09:28:35 am
content: Quote from: dannyf on December 06, 2014, 11:35:45 pmYou'd be surprised at the amount of recalls "good" manufacturers get. I've lost count of how many cars. And don't forget that any manufacturers looks at the bottom line: is it worth recalling the lot or letting a few people get killed or injured and pay them compensation. I kid you not, that is how business thinks!

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 07, 2014, 09:36:32 am
content: Quote from: dannyf on December 05, 2014, 10:28:34 pmA 6W CFL is most certainly not equivalent to a 60W incandescent. When they came out it was 25W = 100W, now you might be able to stretch it to 20W = 100W

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 07, 2014, 09:11:53 pm
content: I'm working on the rule of thumb (no knowing how many lumens my shitty yellow CFL's make) that any LED light that does at least 80 lm/W can replace a CFL of W*0.66-1.0I replaced a 23W CFL with a 10W 800 lm and it's the same to me. A 35W CFL with a 10W 800 lm and granted there is less light because it's not yellow I'm happy with it as it is.I took two 14W CFL's out of one room and replaced with 1 10W 800 lm, i left in the 11W CFL and aim to replace that with another 10W 800 lm so I'd have replaced 39W of CFL with 20W 1600 lmOther small lights like top and bottom of the stairs are going to get 3W LED's that claim 280lmThe kitchen that I have already downgraded from a 80W fluorescent to a 54W one will likely get 20W 1600 lm of LED, all in all I'm taking out quite a few watts of power for realistically the same light.

author: westfw
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 08, 2014, 03:51:58 am
content: QuoteReally? Most of the 23W CFLs I see are advertised as about 1600 lm.Interestingly (to me, anyway), I had a relatively difficult time finding 25W-equiv LED bulbs...

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 08, 2014, 06:35:30 am
content: oh sure, 1600lm, at what colour ? you can't see yellow and sub yellow very well, I could probably do with a few more watts but I'm happy enough

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 08, 2014, 10:05:28 am
content: I think you mean 80lm/W most seem to be about there, you can in theory get as good as 120lm/W but I'd think they are expensive.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 08, 2014, 06:47:58 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on December 08, 2014, 09:50:13 amI don't know about CFLs but the US have slightly more efficient incandescent lighting because the lower voltage means the filament can be thicker, meaning it can work at a higher temperature, for a given lifetime.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incandescent_light_bulbThe lower voltage is why CFLs over there are less efficient? I haven't found anythign to confirm this.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 09, 2014, 11:09:53 am
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on December 09, 2014, 11:04:25 amIt's an advertising war, there are no real standards so each time one manufacturer wants to outdo another they can just make up new better figures. Hence i would rather know lumens and colour temperature, that was i know the amount of light being produced and I know if it's in a colour that I can actually see because I can't trust a government or regulatory body to enforce a decent standard I have to come up with my own.Any bulb now rated as equivalent wattage with no lumen rating will be a scam, there is such a variation in technology efficiency that watts is meaningless.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 09, 2014, 11:43:15 am
content: You know that in the lighting industry there are many standards and common criteria to judge a lamp. But unfortunately this is insider jargon and they don't always share these figures since it is meaningless for 98% of the people.For instance the Life time, lumen maintenance and failure rate is a very good and important one:QuoteSo a ledmodule in a fixture with a given L60F50 at 30000 hrs means that 50% of the leds on the ledmodules in the fixture wll have less than 60% of their initial rated luminous flux left.So to judge what you want to buy this figure is as important as how many lumens/watt you will get.A flashlight (the ones that flash one times) have an enormous amount of lumens/watt but it lasts only a tenth of a second.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 09, 2014, 11:46:43 am
content: Those jargon values are the ones that need to be fixed in law so that the consumer need not worry about being ripped off. Of course expecting a law about engineering matters is about as good as asking father xmas for it!

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 09, 2014, 12:32:41 pm
content: Perhaps you're right but that goes for so many things. I never ever had the fuel/mileage figure that was given for a car when I bought itAnd I have a suspision that I am not the only one

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 09, 2014, 03:36:55 pm
content: As I say I'm happy with that sustem but many ebay goods are sold with no lumens stated but a wattage equivalence and stupid things like 6W = 60W