Delta FDM 3D printer for $179 - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: MadModder
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2015, 07:33:06 pm
content: I'm backing thishttps://www.kickstarter.com/projects/tiko3d/tiko-the-unibody-3d-printerAnd they're well over $1,000,000 in 8 days.Some says it's too good to be true with a printer with that precision at that price. I don't know...They have a proprietary built in slicer, with a web interface as I understand. As of now they even got a proprietary branch of g-code they've created. It's not open anything, and the only part that apparently is user repairable (by changing it) is the nozzle.It isn't particularly expensive for what they promise. Just have to wait for this year to end and check it out if it's more than just promises.What do you think?

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2015, 08:32:55 pm
content: The design uses an exotic and complex X-Y-Z extruder support assembly. Even if initially accurate you have to consider how long its alignment will last if wear occurs. I would love a 3D printer but this does look a little too good to be possible at the price point. A possible case of nice idea, and complex solution at a simpler more basic design price. Hmmm hope it works out for you but I have to wonder about the end products true capability and life expectancy.Aurora

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 07, 2015, 08:36:26 pm
content: Quote from: MadModder on April 07, 2015, 07:33:06 pmI think it will be interesting to watch, and I predict it will go off the rails rather quickly after the delivery date comes and goes.$179 for everything that goes into a 3D printer (motors, control, housing, mechanicals) and this one also supports Wifi is just such a low amount that the cost cutting that goes into this thing must be mind blowing.And a team of 3 young folks who don't seem to have any experience - what could go wrong?Bookmarked!

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2015, 01:57:39 am
content: I predict fail. And alsoQuoteI'd like to know what this magical motor is.I just googled "kickstarter 3d printer" and checked out projects from the first page of results. All are either not finished or quite a bit overdue and no good delivery timeline.

author: donotdespisethesnake
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2015, 09:32:06 am
content: This has the hallmarks of a classic failure.- young team, no track record- a lot of "too good to be true" marketing woo- lots of new technologies to develop- very low price point- a massively oversubscribed campaignThe mistake made with Kickstarter's is mainly the eye-catching "loss leader" low price, and subsequent high delivery target. The normal plan is to start with small volumes, high prices selling to early adopters, then ramp into mass production and lower prices.Crowdsourcing turns that backwards, and makes it 10 times more difficult. The worst case it turns into a Ponzi scheme where they need new orders to pay for the development of earlier orders, because they ran way over budget.Tiko looks like a Makibox all over again. There is so much hype in the glossy marketing it almost looks like a con.

author: MadModder
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2015, 01:09:26 pm
content: Yes, I expect this to be quite a bit delayed. There is no chance in **** that they will be able to ship 3000 units in november, 3000 in december, and I don't know how many in january. I say add six months to that.And the "magical" motor they have decided on is 28BYJ-48,http://robocraft.ru/files/datasheet/28BYJ-48.pdf5.625° step angle, and 64:1 gear ratio. Slow as a sloth.And they say the backlash is not an issue.But the thing kinda looks nice on the desk...The wear on the arms, the ball joints to be exact, may be an issue faster than one thinks since those parts are plastic. I've been thinking about maybe put a drop from a teflon spray lube can on each ball joint. That maybe will extend the lifespan somewhat.

author: KedasProbe
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2015, 01:29:58 pm
content: The example they show doesn't look like it can be printed without support material.This would make the shown examples already impossible.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2015, 01:34:41 pm
content: I saw this - using an outer extrusion is interesting and can potentially solve quite a few problems. Not clear if it's metal or plastic.However I found the video a bit too slick... sounded like an infomercial - maybe that's just the Americanness..It's definitely too cheap - $199, maybe even $249 wouldn't have g\\lost that many backers.I also have serious reservations about accuracy, especially over time.They seem to be cagey about releasing a video showing realtime speed.Some of their replies to comments indicate a bit of a clue shortage about what experienced 3D printer users want, and whet the issues are.They have a very plausible looking PCB, but it's pictured next to a toy soldering iron and plumbing-grade solder...One mistake is you can't see the filament, so don't know how much is left or what type is loaded - needs to have a window (or just make the whole top from clear polycarb?)They are doing slicing in the cloud.... I can see potential issues if they start tweaking the algorithm over time so stuff that used to print OK later fails...I'm putting it at about 50/50 at the moment to deliver something plausible, and maybe 75% chance that speed and/or accuracy will be disappointing.

author: MadModder
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2015, 02:01:11 pm
content: This is a real time 2 hours print:I don't know if this is the first prototype with the Nema motors.Please note how smooth and graceful the hotend descends into view... haha!

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 08, 2015, 02:12:02 pm
content: Quote from: Corporate666 on April 07, 2015, 08:36:26 pmSomeone has done the math:http://www.inside3dp.com/low-cost-3d-printers-crowdfunding-suicide/

author: Rasz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2015, 05:19:26 pm
content: u ni booty!!! peace!!!1 omg what a bunch of BS.I liked their "this is where we need your help" standard template white yellow AND black PR video, must of cost $30K easily, probably done by one of those 'we make KS videos only' companies.Their excruder couldnt keep alignment even during that video, first shot you can see it lowering while SHAKING the head good couple of milimeters. and ZOMG ZE CLOWD!!!Price point is totally realistic if your intention is to work for free, or if you spin up chinese factory making couple of thousands per week.

author: MadModder
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2015, 06:33:40 pm
content: You're right about the chinese factory, and they mentioned something about a couple of thousands extruded chassis per month. So, yeah....Come on, it'll be fun to see where this leads! If it leads to me getting something useful delivered by the postal service in about a year or so that is.

author: janoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2015, 10:16:34 pm
content: Quote from: MadModder on April 08, 2015, 01:09:26 pmUff, you mean the $2 motors from AliExpress?http://www.jangeox.be/2013/10/stepper-motor-28byj-48_25.htmlThat's seriously crazy thing to use in a 3D printer - they are weak, there is a lot backlash due to the gearing and they are also slow. Of course, they are 10x cheaper than a NEMA motor, important for their price point, I guess.If they are going to use these, I am not having a lot of hope for this machine - especially a delta, where the motors are loaded quite a bit, having to hold the entire weight of the extruder.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2015, 10:34:02 pm
content: Quote from: janoc on April 08, 2015, 10:16:34 pmYeah but maybe the weight will take care of the backlash....

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 08, 2015, 11:37:24 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on April 08, 2015, 02:12:02 pmThat's a good article, I like it.In general, one of the fundamental tenets of business is that a startup whose competitive advantage is price *will* fail. The time you need fatter margins is when you're starting out and don't have the hindsight that years of mistakes give you, nor do you have established credit lines, supplier relationships or the ability to execute a plan perfectly. All the missteps cost money, and missteps are much more prevalent in startups.Being the low cost supplier is saying "We have a great idea for a business - we'll make less profit than anyone else, even the people who aren't currently making a profit, but we'll be so popular we'll make it up on volume!"

author: ehughes
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 09, 2015, 01:12:03 am
content: Well... A sucker born every minute.The schedule is simply ridiculous. You don't go through reliability testing to full production in 4 weeks.... By the way it is written, they do not have a working unit. Nor do they have any real electronics designed and built. There is a reason the board is not populated.....That and a couple weeks between regulatory testing and production shipment??Not to mention that they have zero margin....This statement scares me:QuoteYou don't have a functional unit with electronics. There is no way to know what it will to manufacture in volume!

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 09, 2015, 02:53:48 am
content: Quote from: Corporate666 on April 08, 2015, 11:37:24 pmand this delta trying to be $1 cheaper. the calculation is based on standard nema stepper and rigid body for larger unit. if the young folks push things to the limit such as smaller steppers, exosceleton plastic construction or just the right thickness/amount of metal working, my suspicion this is not impossible. low grade consumers inkjet has 2 steppers, motors, plethora of big/small components mechanism, nanoscale ink "extruder", a robust smps and an fpga and cost $50 only. but... extraordinary claim needs extraordinary faith.

author: sleemanj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 09, 2015, 04:44:08 am
content: Quote from: Mechatrommer on April 09, 2015, 02:53:48 am1. steppers are typically only used in the scan head these days, a tiny flat geared one, all the other motors in typical inkjets these days are standard DC motors with an optical encoder strip/disk2. consumer printers are manufactured in massive quantities, with volume comes savings3. consumer printers are loss-leaders for ink sales, likely sold below manufacturing cost, this has been known for a long long time (and some 3d printers are trying to do the same now)As for this Tiko printer. The price is cheap but I do think it should be possible to sell a 3d printer that gives reasonable results profitably for $200 US or less (certainly that's the point at which I would buy one), but only if in a relatively large scale production. However I don't think that THESE guys can do it, and I don't think that THIS printer is going to give good results, it's conceivable that they are doing some seriously nifty stuff to get good results out of very mediocre components (those steppers) but... extraordinary claims and all that.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 09, 2015, 05:43:36 am
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on April 08, 2015, 01:34:41 pmIt's what they teach you at the startup incubator, of which this project is an alumni.QuoteThat's about my estimate too.

author: pickle9000
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 09, 2015, 06:30:40 am
content: Well if it works out you can bet there will be a Chinese clone 5 days later for 25 bucks less and free shipping on ebay. So I say good luck to them.If the majority of the parts are mass produced plastic, and assembled in China then you possibly could do it, but making 6 bucks per unit seems hardly worth it.

author: Zef
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: April 09, 2015, 08:42:25 am
content: They did a reddit AMA (Ask Me Anything) where they stated their COGS was only $70. I know little about such things but is that even possible? Would that be the cost of the raw components alone? A link to that comment:http://www.reddit.com/r/3Dprinting/comments/318pu4/tiko_3d_ama_we_are_tiko_3d_and_were_on/cpzga0fThe entire AMA is here:http://www.reddit.com/r/3Dprinting/comments/318pu4/tiko_3d_ama_we_are_tiko_3d_and_were_on/EDIT: Actually they mention that the $70 COGS figure includes labour and packaging (but not shipping).

author: ehughes
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 09, 2015, 12:06:16 pm
content: I am not sure there is a business case for a low margin "printer for everyone".1.) Most consumers have a hard enough time getting a "2d"printer working2.) Most consumers simply have no ability to produce 3d models that are useful. (or printable on a low end machine)3.) Every sub-3k printer I have seen requires a lot of care and feeding. They are mostly junk. Your average soccer mom is not going to dick with a 3d printer extruder problem.4.) Printers that cannot print support produce 90% junk. The consumer market simply doesn't not understand the physics of FDM. Yes, it will be good for producing warped Yoda heads but little else.4.) A $70 build cost assumes what volumes? 100k? I think there volume estimates are a bit high. There isn't enough margin to pay themselves and their employees reasonably.5.) 2d Printers only achieve the costs they do through mass manufacture and extreme subsidies through printer ink sales.6.) Related to #3, a cheap BOM means it will be a junk assembly. This may lead to a downward spiral in perception...7.) Very few businesses win the race to the bottom.I for one am tired of cheap junk. This only further enables the cheap junk, throw away culture.....In the end, I think it will be a good experience in the school of hard knocks for the kids making this but I don't expect it to meet most of their goals. I find the design of the machine interesting but the business model horrific.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 09, 2015, 12:42:01 pm
content: Quote from: pickle9000 on April 09, 2015, 06:30:40 amI wouldn't get out of bed for 6 bucks a unit, with apologies to Linda Evangelista.

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 09, 2015, 12:49:48 pm
content: I only have to watch the UK TV program called Dragons Den to see some well intentioned people trying to produce products that either have no true market or are massively over valued. Many also have no clue about the costs that they face when moving from an idea to full production. Most are not scammers, just a little naive and even if they do produce a decent design they are vulnerable to the harsh world of commercial production including clones and outright theft of designs.Good luck to them but I have to agree. A more expensive, well sorted design would be a more sensible approach rather than building down to a cost that looks fanciful to those who seem to know more about this than me.Oh and cheap motors are a recipe for disaster. Making an electronics design down to a price is very different to trying the same strategy with mechanical components such as chassis's, bearings, motors and gearboxes. So much more can go wrong.Aurora

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 09, 2015, 03:18:35 pm
content: We should start a pool.I say they never deliver. They get funded and announce they are "just finalizing" some things... but their margin per unit is nothing (or, more likely, negative) and they burn through the $$$ with travel and salaries and wind up not having enough to manufacture. I also predict this will not be said directly... they will just fizzle out and disappear.

author: MadModder
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 09, 2015, 05:37:36 pm
content: I added a poll.And these guys look pretty young, so they may still go to school, I don't know, college, university? And living off of their parents, and this is their final project in bussiness class or something.

author: janoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 10, 2015, 08:17:52 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on April 08, 2015, 10:34:02 pmOr simply make the printer commit suicide after the first print - the motor gears are all plastic (nicely visible in the blog post I linked before) and they seem to want to use plastic (3d printed?) gearing also on the vertical rails (racks and pinions). They are certainly not going to be able to afford machined rack and pinion sets at that price point.This is going to be either a very expensive failure or they deliver machines that will be unusable and fall apart after the first attempt to use them.

author: Towger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 10, 2015, 10:37:10 pm
content: Let's not forget the free shipping to anywhere in the world.... The photos show a larger unit than the image with the dimensions. It was not clear if this size was the max print size or the unit size. In any event by the time kickstarter take their cut and international shipping is paid for for half the units...

author: Zef
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: April 10, 2015, 11:14:59 pm
content: Quote from: Towger on April 10, 2015, 10:37:10 pmIt's not free shipping. They said this will be calculated later and will cap at $65.

author: MadModder
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2015, 08:42:46 am
content: Exactly. It only says it can be shipped to anywhere in the world.Hmm... This may be a way to bring in som last minute fundings actually. Set a slightly higher shipping fee than needed. Not very nice, but it has been done before.This is a disassembly of the cheap motor:

author: donotdespisethesnake
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2015, 09:53:07 am
content: Quote from: MadModder on April 11, 2015, 08:42:46 amI don't know what those motors were designed for, but they seem to be a toy for kids. Despite all the glossy marketing, just this one thing tells me Tiko 3D don't have a clue what they are doing.I see a lot of comments from people saying, "it was cheap, so I backed it". That seems to be the key to a successful Kickstarter scam, price it so low people won't mind losing the money. In fraud circles, that is like the "salami method".

author: MadModder
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2015, 10:30:32 am
content: Yes that is one possible salami. But time will tell.This motor is designed to be very cheap and used in cheap products that might not need a high precision positioning.And this kind of unipolar stepper motors are very very weak, so a gear box is highly needed.But because of the construction of the printer, the motors are sitting on the sleds and thus moving themselves upp and down plus the actuating arms and nozzle assembly so the total weight might actually eliminate all problems with backlash at these low speeds. However, the plastic bearing/sleeve is going to wear down relatively quickly I think.The Tiko 3D is designed to be easy to use by everyone, and they're aming for a"file->print" functionality as the say, not having to worry about anything else.Priced like a toy, components for a toy, and looks like a toy. But hey, I like electronic toys.

author: pickle9000
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2015, 03:45:00 pm
content: If they have a toy company on board for design and assembly I'd be more inclined to think they can do it. A $300.00 3d printing toy.

author: Towger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2015, 04:10:38 pm
content: Quote from: blueskullI backed the Plugaway. It was based in China with most of the team Chinese and they still managed to blow all the money.

author: MadModder
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2015, 05:57:51 pm
content: Even in China, quality products are not cheap. I backed this "Tool pen" made in Taiwan. 60 bucks for a new kind of bits screwdriver, with 22 bits. The campaign went flawlessly, hitting every point in the time plan, and shipped on time. They're now running a second kickstarter with a smaller tool pen, with precision bits. I think every old backer is backing this one also. It reached the goal efter one hour.A bad chinese copy is generally cheap as a sardinian, but creating an original product there and still have it cheap? No.

author: pickle9000
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2015, 06:16:41 pm
content: Quote from: MadModder on April 11, 2015, 05:57:51 pmMade in China does not need to mean cheap, but certainly can mean high quality at low cost. The trick is where to pinch your pennies. With this item if the goal is a consumer product how many cycles will you expect it to run before failure, will replacements parts be available, how low can the resolution / backlash be?If your selling this as an "Easy Bake Oven" for kids it could be a very large market. A toy that builds toys, have an online design depository and there you go.

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2015, 06:39:31 pm
content: A toy like that weird children's plastic filament 3D crafting penA whacky idea, but I have seen it in the shops..... no motors or precision neededAurora

author: pickle9000
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2015, 06:55:48 pm
content: That's cool, no programming required.

author: pickle9000
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2015, 07:06:04 pm
content: I've been thinking about some real world uses for a 3d printer that don't fall under the catagory of gimmick or prototype. These are ee related.- Custom board standoffs- Custom board holder for testing purposes.- Shop tool holders, including those that could be used in cabinets, or cases.- Fan shrouds- Cable holders (scope probes and such)

author: janoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 12, 2015, 01:23:45 pm
content: Quote from: blueskull on April 11, 2015, 06:35:56 pmThat is usually a very expensive mistake people make - then they have to buy twice, because the first tool either isn't fit for the purpose or falls apart. This applies to tools in general, not just 3D printers. Decent tools aren't that much more expensive.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 12, 2015, 02:19:34 pm
content: QuoteI think that should be qualified by 'for tools you know you want'. I've sometimes bought expensive and very decent tools, but they didn't actually do what I wanted (some must-have feature missing, perhaps) so were really a waste of money.My best buys have typically been when I know roughly what I want and then buy some cheap thing from which I learn what I really need and don't need.Then, using my new-found experience, I acquire the one that's going to last me a lifetime and be exactly what I want/need.But you have to be realistic: the cheap one has to do enough, and be usable enough, for you to look beyond its flaws due to being cheap.Nevertheless, in that context, I would think $179 well spent if this thing lasted enough jobs for me to figure out what the next one must have (and, equally, must not have). That one is likely to cost an order of magnitude more, and I'd want to know I can make an educated judgement about it.

author: loneoceans
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 22, 2015, 10:06:02 pm
content: I'm not very sure about their details, and in general I think the idea of an extruded frame is excellent, but here are a few concerns and thoughts (mostly ideas from discussion with some people):Bed leveling- This is really crucial for delta printing movement and I don't seem to see any sort of leveling or leveling sensors for the bed. This is made more concerning when the bed presumably is removable and soft.Motors- It seems like they are using DC motors with no feedback (since they mention the extremely low cost, but.. just a guess), and that the motors are on the carriage instead of the frame, instead of belts. Also, this means that the carriages will be heavier, and I suspect that in practice this might result in very low print speeds. Also... I don't see a feed motor on the extrusion head?Feedback- as mentioned, I can't find any reference of feedback except for 'accelerometer on the head'. This seems like that is the only source of feedback, which will certainly keep costs down, but I fear the accuracy and precision will suffer. Also, ""This same accelerometer is used for auto calibration, plus something even cooler. Tiko can measure its own performance, so with your permission, we can use performance data from your printer to help make every Tiko better."" - maybe they are using the accelerometer for feedback and using big data to improve results.PLA without cooling- they mention PLA extrusion without active cooling (this is not novel, btw). I think that's fine, but what is more concerning is the result of the PLA print without cooling. Or maybe, it just prints very slowly?Bearings- the delta bearings... look like they would wear out really fast. They mention injection molded? And I don't see how this will hold up to their claimed resolution in any sort of timeframeCost- their goals, and price point and timelines are... very optimistic. This has me a bit concerned... but fantastic if true!

author: electr_peter
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 23, 2015, 08:15:59 am
content: Quote from: loneoceans on April 22, 2015, 10:06:02 pmI have experience with Delta type robots and have to say that calibration/feedback of some sort is very critical and not easy to do. I have some doubts that accuracy and consistency of acceleration sensor(if they use such sensor) is enough to get everything level, but we will have to see.

author: MadModder
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 25, 2015, 05:28:30 pm
content: The motors are unipolar stepper motors with a 64:1 reduction gearbox. The weight on the carriages keeps the gears engaged in the same direction at all times and therefore reduces the otherwise pretty bad backlash in these motors. They stated that the firmware also has some kind of super secret solution to deal with the backlash...

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 25, 2015, 06:15:27 pm
content: I am always suspicious when a 'design team' says they have a super secret solution to a critical problem. Unless they provide some reasonable high level explanation of the solution, I tend to call BullS*it on such claims. It is my experience that such claims are often a stalling tactic as the team have yet to solve the issue and just want to claim 'secret sauce' is involved to avoid answering probing questions.For a superb example of this, take a look at the Mu thermal camera project that fell flat on its face. A disaster from the start that claimed that all manner of NDA's and 'secret solutions' prevented them showing anything useful of the design. Mu have never released any reasonable explanation of how they were going to achieve the quoted price point when so many expensive obstacles stood in their way. I have to wonder if this printer project is following the same blinkered path ?Aurora

author: pickle9000
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 25, 2015, 06:50:38 pm
content: Quote from: Aurora on April 25, 2015, 06:15:27 pmYup, I can agree with that. I'm sure it's just a simple pattern system so the motors are always under tension in the same direction. As for "super secret" that's probably because it will increase process time. Even so I do wish them luck. The price is at a "toy" level so the features will be toy level as well, the "Easy Bake Oven" of it's day would be nice to see.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 25, 2015, 07:09:01 pm
content: Quote from: Aurora on April 25, 2015, 06:15:27 pmSo secret that they themselves don't know the solution, because they've not figured it out yet.

author: Rasz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2015, 08:24:54 am
content: Quote from: Aurora on April 25, 2015, 06:15:27 pmto be fail Im now somewhat certain Mu wasnt a scam after all, and they were talking about Seek sensor (or a predecessing prototype) all this time.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2015, 08:58:37 am
content: Quote from: Rasz on April 26, 2015, 08:24:54 amThere is no evidence of any connection between Mu and Seek - Mu were just a bunch of idiots who didn't have a clue what thy were doing

author: Rasz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2015, 10:22:16 am
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on April 26, 2015, 08:58:37 amtiming, weird military claims, nda's, picture quality(banding) of Mu's one time only real life prototype presentation, all fits Seek

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 26, 2015, 11:15:55 am
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on April 25, 2015, 07:09:01 pmYep, my money is on that.And when you have a team that comprises:Someone "born and raised to be an entrepeneur"A "market research, community management, PR" personAnd a person to handle the Chinese supply frame.Add Kickstarter, 2 million bucks to try and produce a precision commodity ultra low cost product, and you have a potential recipe for disaster

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2015, 11:54:19 am
content: Quote from: Rasz on April 26, 2015, 10:22:16 amNo - there were some long-time thermal imaging industry pros behind Seek - they'd have spotted mu's BS in an instant.

author: Rasz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2015, 01:46:52 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on April 26, 2015, 11:54:19 ammy silly theory is MU got a lucky connection with someone at seek, learned about upcoming product, secured alpha unit with NDA and went full retard with crowdfunding.

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2015, 03:00:26 pm
content: Removed by Aurora as way off topicAurora

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 26, 2015, 04:07:01 pm
content: Quote from: Rasz on April 26, 2015, 01:46:52 pmMu optics' sensor was never the same resolution as Seek's, and Mu claimed they had changed sensor brand/supplier mid way through the project....so even if their campaign was based on knowledge of a forthcoming Seek unit, that wasn't the sensor they claimed to be using. I don't think any sensor existed that Mu was going to use....anything with the resolution and update rate they specified would have been known to users here.

author: valley_nomad
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 02, 2015, 12:22:43 am
content: A follow-up to the original topic: Tiko 3D just finished their KS campaign with a whopping $2.95M. It is the second most funded 3D printer project on KS. The first one is $3.4M M3D's Mircro project lunched about one year ago. Guess what they have in common? They both use that $1 tin-can step motor 28BYJ-48

author: pickle9000
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 02, 2015, 01:43:12 am
content: wow

author: sleemanj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 02, 2015, 02:33:24 am
content: FWIW, I recently bought my first 3d printer, not a delta (a wood frame i3 variant), but it cost me $169 USD + a little shy of a hundred shipping from China including all the tools you needed (roughly) and a kilo of PLA, it was at my door in about a week after ordering.I don't know if the aliexpress seller is actually making any money at that price, but it arrived, it took a couple evenings to assemble, there were a couple of issues which I easily corrected, and it's working like a champ so far.I made some assembly notes;http://sparks.gogo.co.nz/prusa-i3-from-rp3d-notes.html

author: pickle9000
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 02, 2015, 02:56:05 am
content: Quote from: sleemanj on May 02, 2015, 02:33:24 amI don't think I've ever seen one that cheap (used by a real person). Did you find that yourself or was it recommended?

author: sleemanj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 02, 2015, 04:14:52 am
content: Quote from: pickle9000 on May 02, 2015, 02:56:05 amI found it on Aliexpress (link is in my assembly notes above)

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 02, 2015, 12:35:50 pm
content: Da Vinci Junior proves that a budget 3D printer is a viable product,but not at $179 ! It seems reasonable at $349 and provided the 'chipped' PLA reels can be hacked, like on its bigger brother, it shouldn't cost a fortune to run.http://www.computerworld.com/article/2910250/review-the-da-vinci-junior-is-the-easy-bake-oven-of-3d-printers.htmlIt certainly peaked my interest in a low end 3D printer.Aurora

author: janoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 02, 2015, 08:31:40 pm
content: Quote from: Aurora on May 02, 2015, 12:35:50 pmSorry, but that is not what I call a "viable product". They are selling it essentially at loss and expect to make up the difference in the expensive proprietary filament.I think it was hacked already, but that is really stupid business model, IMO, especially when there are plenty of alternatives where you don't have to keep paying "rent" like that.

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 02, 2015, 08:50:27 pm
content: Ummm...... are you not aware that HP make the majority of their TOTAL profit from their inkjet printer consumables in spite of compatibles being available ? Its a fact. The business model remains viable. The buyer gets the printer at an amazing price and effectively pays for it many time over through consumables. Compatible consumables do not have the effect that you may think on the business model. Hacking is little different as many owners will be happy to buy from the OEM. Low users of consumables see the subsidised 'printer' as a bargain, and for them it may be.Aurora

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 03, 2015, 07:51:10 am
content: I only buy HP or Canon ( basically the same printer in any case) and only those models in the options where I can have the cartridges refilled. Then I run it for the warranty period on OEM cartridges, then those will be the refill bodies after that is up.For a business saving 60% on the cost of printing is going to get some serious attention. I have been using the one refiller nearly since they started, and am on good terms with the owner, I have already given him feedback on his services ( pretty much always very good) and have recommended the company to others, who also get the same good service.After 5 years the errors and returns are under 1 per year, pretty good, the OEM cartridges have a similar defect rate, and if you actually read the small print on those cartridges you may note that you there will possibly get a refilled and recycled cartridge from them as well, though you are paying for new. That is why you get a prepaid parcel or courier sticker inside, to return your used cartridges "To protect the environment from cartridges dumped in landfill" so that they can refill them and get the extra profit from not having to mould all the plastic parts. The refiller makes a profit from the 1/3 he charges, think of how much you can make as the OEM with the consumables you use being in bulk at a price probably 10% of the refillers price.

author: sleemanj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 03, 2015, 09:51:31 am
content: Quote from: Aurora on May 02, 2015, 08:50:27 pmI'm not sure that the 3d printer market is quite ready enough for the razor blade model (yes I know XYZ is doing it already, or attempting), that model depends on people who are1. not technically capable of avoiding it2. not motivated to avoid itgiven the complexity of operating a 3d printer (or rather, the general complexity of 3d modelling), it's still high cost (for a consumer "friendly" type), and it's fairly niche applications, I think that rather a large proportion of people who buy a 3d printer are both technically capable, and motivated to avoid any razor blade business model.I've noted that quite a lot of DaVinci 1.0 machines are coming up second hand with little usage here in NZ, the machines are being sold by a large stationery chain here and I suspect that people buy them, find out it's too hard or not that useful, and flick them on, the people who pick them second hand up are even less likely to succumb to the razor blade model I suspect.To add to this, it should be noted that XYZ are or at least have in the past put in work to defeat the hacks, which perhaps is an indication that the hacks do have a significant impact on sales.

author: janoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 03, 2015, 11:58:24 pm
content: Quote from: sleemanj on May 03, 2015, 09:51:31 amThere is also the fact that the 3D printer manufacturers are nowhere near the reliability of HP/Canon/whatever printers. Or the Gillette razors, if you must. So one ends up paying for the proprietary supplies and still have to mess with a rather expensive machine to make it work and mainly to keep it working. It is not a $50 inkjet you throw away when it breaks.Moreover, many of these outfits selling machines like the DaVinci will be gone tomorrow - good luck trying to source the proprietary cartridges for the cheap machine then! Razor is cheap to replace, 3D printer not so much, even at $300 price.That some business model works for razor blades or inkjets doesn't mean it is a good fit for another product.

author: pickle9000
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 04, 2015, 01:08:28 am
content: Quote from: janoc on May 03, 2015, 11:58:24 pmI think of these things more like an educational toy. Similar to a 200 in 1 kit for electronics. Spending up to 300 bucks for a toy is not that unusual. It is educational just as the 200 in 1 kit is. I'm not saying it's better just saying that it's educational. Even a "work off the shelf" unit would be educational, 3d modeling is a good thing to know, not sure it's as fun as balsa wood and tissue paper but I want to try it.

author: donotdespisethesnake
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2017, 07:33:55 pm
content: Tiko calls it quitshttp://www.3ders.org/articles/20170224-kickstarter-backers-of-179-tiko-3d-printer-wont-be-getting-refunds-says-folding-startup.htmlThe collective wisdom here seems to have called this one right. 4000 people got a crap printer, and the rest lost their $179 + $55 shipping.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2017, 07:46:42 pm
content: Remember, when they were so excited about their crap $2 steppers? It was kind of obvious even back then, that those motors will not work for this application.

author: janoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2017, 02:30:10 pm
content: Quote from: ataradov on February 27, 2017, 07:46:42 pmExactly. And a doofus at HaD called that "out-innovating themselves" yesterday.I have quite different words for that kind of arrogant ignorance and innovation it isn't.

author: Assafl
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 01, 2017, 10:42:50 am
content: Quote from: pickle9000 on April 11, 2015, 03:45:00 pmYes indeed- I am very certain that Silverlit electronics are able - to make a sub 100$ 3d printer that would work. Those toy dogs and dinosaurs have so many motors and sensors and wiring harnesses - I am not even sure how the BOM works on those.The problem would be either the speed (the robotic dogs are either slow or expensive) and, my $ would be on the reliability of the hot end and bowden extruder.Lastly, I do not thing an accelerometer would make a bad job of a auto-levelling sensor. It depends I guess on how close they can mount it to the nozzle, and how they compensate for lag (or do the impact at very slow speeds).

author: donotdespisethesnake
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 01, 2017, 11:44:56 am
content: Quote from: Assafl on March 01, 2017, 10:42:50 amAccelerometers are incredibly sensitive, I expect that the impact with the bed would be completely drowned out by the steps of the stepper motors, which might look smooth to the eye. Even the teeth of a belt or gear might cause noise in the signal.

author: Rasz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 01, 2017, 12:21:52 pm
content: why steppers at all, go closed loop with custom brushed motor servos - with potentiometers moved from inside servo to the arms of delta and control electronics centralized in main microcontroller, + one optical encoder strip for height.

author: Assafl
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 01, 2017, 03:59:29 pm
content: Quote from: donotdespisethesnake on March 01, 2017, 11:44:56 amHave you ever set Z0 incorrectly? While I agree the steps are probably detectable and noisy - the impact of the glass is pretty violent. I guess it is how you do the signal processing.That said - there was a brief period in which the new version of the firmware could not zero properly and I printed without auto levelling. Worked fine. Of course you need to get those transformation parameters right for it to work against a flat plate of glass.

author: janoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 01, 2017, 04:17:37 pm
content: Quote from: Rasz on March 01, 2017, 12:21:52 pmThose would likely die even faster than the crappy steppers - cheap brushed motors are not the best choice when you need to actually hold position under load, i.e. the motor is stalled. Steppers are designed for this use, brushed DC motor would likely burn out unless it was hugely overspecced. They are not designed to be stalled.

author: janoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 01, 2017, 04:27:40 pm
content: Quote from: Assafl on March 01, 2017, 03:59:29 pmA violent impact into the printing surface is likely the last thing you want on any machine where you want some semblance of accuracy and of long term stability. You want to go slow and gently and ideally avoiding any contact at all - that's why various probes with flexible tips are used on CNC machines instead.Accelerometer would completely suck for this - how would you detect where the vibration from the motors stop and the impact to the surface starts? Especially as the motor is likely still "pushing" when you hit it. This would be both inaccurate and messing up the (already poor) mechanics of the machine.The simplest way to do this is a contact probe or the various inductive or capacitive sensors. If the bed is non-conductive then optical sensor could be used too.And if your have a semi-decent machine, you don't need automatic bed leveling at all. You level the bed once and it stays put for a long time. My self-assembled Mendel90 doesn't have it and I have never had a problem. But the Mendel is a fairly rigid and reasonably designed machine where it is not difficult to keep the parts square to each other (unlike the various Prusa i3s and similar). The automatic bed leveling on the consumer printers is mostly a kludge working around the mechanical inadequacies of the design that won't stay square.

author: Assafl
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 01, 2017, 06:27:59 pm
content: Yup. When well calibrated it works fine. I use 1515 beams with linear carriages and it keeps square (on a mini Kossel). Still use the auto leveling. Don't know why. Use resistive pads under the glass to detect the touch. Works well.The SNR on the accelerometer will depend on how well it is coupled to the nozzle.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 01, 2017, 09:46:53 pm
content: QuoteI might be wrong, but I think an accelerometer for auto-levelling is a good tool for the wrong job. You don't want the bed to be perfectly level relative gravity, you want it to be perfectly parallel to the rails the hot end is running on.

author: janoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 02, 2017, 08:12:29 pm
content: Quote from: dunkemhigh on March 01, 2017, 09:46:53 pmNo, the idea was to detect the contact with the surface (and thus the printing surface not being perpendicular to the Z-axis) by detecting the impact, not to to measure the angle. That would be useless, indeed. Furthermore, common cheap accelerometers likely don't even have enough resolution for doing such measurement with useful accuracy.The surface impact could be detected, but accelerometer is not the right tool for that job neither if you want any accuracy and reproducible result.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 02, 2017, 09:03:07 pm
content: QuoteAh! OK