Rigol DS1000Z now comes unlocked - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: jgalak
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2017, 03:13:19 pm
content: I ordered a DS1054Z directly from Rigol (in the US) last week, since they had dropped the price to $349. Today I got the following email:QuoteQuoteI have no idea if this is limited time or not, nor do I know which options are included in "all the license options" since I've not yet gotten the scope. Most specifically, I don't know if this includes the bandwidth upgrade that hacking the scope can get you. From the title of the email, it looks like this is applicable to all 1000Z series scopes, DS and MSO.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2017, 03:22:53 pm
content: Perhaps they gave up. Or saw the Siglent coming.

author: jgalak
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2017, 03:25:21 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on December 06, 2017, 03:22:53 pmThose are exactly my first two thoughts when I saw the email.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2017, 03:31:29 pm
content: I doubt you get the 100MHz, it's not an official upgrade.Quote from: jgalak on December 06, 2017, 03:25:21 pmIfyou don't know about the hack then the "50MHz", no options Rigol doesn't look good next to the 100MHz Siglent.And ... the "100MHz" Rigol is now facing the 200MHz Siglent on price.Not good for Xmas sales.

author: lundmar
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2017, 05:23:13 pm
content: OMG! I see Rigol still forces people to register when they want to simply download their latest firmware!?It's so freaking stupid and sooooo bloody annoying!

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2017, 05:36:59 pm
content: Quote from: lundmar on December 06, 2017, 05:23:13 pmGet it here:http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/fs/blocks/showLandingPage/a/1579/p/p-0019/t/page/fm/0

author: lundmar
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2017, 07:29:15 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on December 06, 2017, 05:36:59 pmYes, I know. The point is that Rigol should not go to such lengths to make it so troublesome to download their latest firmware. Rigol should just put the firmware with direct links on the product firmware pages and not require registration to get to those download links!I'm sure I'm not the only one annoyed by how Rigol distributes their firmware.

author: technix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2017, 07:31:53 pm
content: AFAIK some Chinese companies take the firmware download as a chance to slurp up as much user information as possible for their marketing department. Geez.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2017, 08:40:29 pm
content: Quote from: technix on December 06, 2017, 07:31:53 pmIts spreading across all countries/industries/companiesNvidia are pushing down this road:https://www.reddit.com/r/assholedesign/comments/5u1m7u/nvidia_want_to_update_drivers_have_to_login/Its becoming routine for companies to refuse to serve you unless they have your email address, phone number, postal address, etc even when none of those are required to deliver the service. The advertising networks they work with need the data to keep linking their profiles of you across as many platforms as possible.

author: lundmar
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2017, 10:54:43 pm
content: Quote from: Someone on December 06, 2017, 08:40:29 pmIt's corporate bullshit that's what it is!

author: SkyMaster
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2017, 12:28:04 am
content: Quote from: jgalak on December 06, 2017, 03:13:19 pmThe licence bundle contains all the available options.But the 100 MHz "bandwidth upgrade" of the DS1054Z isnotan option.The licence bundle will not unlock your DS1054Z to 100 MHz.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2017, 11:04:32 am
content: Quote from: lundmar on December 06, 2017, 10:54:43 pmI just typed in a load of garbage, including bad serial number, and it still worked.This is my default action for these things. It often surprises people when I don't automatically type in all my personal details when I see a form on a web page.If somebody insists on emailing a download link to me (which Rigol doesn't) they'll get a mailinator address.If they're checking for mailinator addresses then they get a special email address with their company name in it that'll be set to "bounce" mode right after I use the link. Mailinator is a useful filter, anybody checks for mailinator addresses in their web page is aguaranteedasshole who should never be given a real email address.

author: technix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2017, 05:56:10 pm
content: Quote from: SkyMaster on December 07, 2017, 12:28:04 amWell there is still Riglol after all.

author: rhb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 08, 2017, 03:44:00 pm
content: Everyone requires registration to download anything now. Even Keysight.

author: woody
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 08, 2017, 04:24:49 pm
content: QuoteI use this as a standard practice. Just create rigol@mydomain.nl as an alias. As soon as the first unsolicited mail arrives the alias gets deleted. Problem solved. And for mandatory addresses / phone numbers the supermarket around the corner is a nice lightning rod

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 08, 2017, 05:19:14 pm
content: Quote from: woody on December 08, 2017, 04:24:49 pmMe too but it requires having your own domains/server, which a lot of people don't.Quote from: woody on December 08, 2017, 04:24:49 pmI prefer to send back a "Die, spammer!" message. YMMV.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 08, 2017, 05:33:12 pm
content: Quote from: Someone on December 06, 2017, 08:40:29 pmYou need accounts for everything now. Want to get on the bus? You need an account. Want to get a haircut? You need an account. You want to use a discrete program offline? You need an account. It's absolutely maddening.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 08, 2017, 05:36:06 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on December 08, 2017, 05:33:12 pmAll the more reason to have several fake accounts and/or ways to create new ones on the spur of the moment. Accounts which identify the other party by name as part of the identifier are especially useful.PS: Anybody else remember being hassled for their name/address in Radio Shack every time they bought something?

author: frozenfrogz
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 08, 2017, 05:49:10 pm
content: On the Rigol site you can insert random data to get to the download link. The form does not even do a sanity check on the serial number, so you can just go Mr. A. B, a@b.cd Ser#1 etc.It is bad practice to force this on customers but in return I am willing to clutter up the database of these companies with garbled datasets.Some companies like Zortrax (desktop 3D printer) don’t even want to let you download firmware or software tools without a correct serial number.I just noted when a friend who owns a Zortrax asked me to help with some printing settings. If I had bought the machine myself this would be returned to the re-seller ASAP.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 08, 2017, 05:50:48 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on December 08, 2017, 05:36:06 pmFake accounts still provide real metadata. They might not know your real name, but they do get to track your habits and things like your IP.

author: jgalak
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 08, 2017, 09:08:51 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on December 08, 2017, 05:33:12 pmHell, I literally can't drive my car without an account...

author: IAmBack
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 08, 2017, 10:18:53 pm
content: Herehttp://int.rigol.com/Support/SoftDownload/3FW is also "free available".BTW, is it the most recent version?

author: Old Printer
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 09, 2017, 05:22:09 pm
content: Quote from: jgalak on December 08, 2017, 09:08:51 pmHow about trying to buy something at CVS or Wallgreens. They all but demand to scan the card. Unless I need it to get a sale price I won't let them do it, but make sure they can see the card hanging on my key ring just to Africans rmem. . I have had them reach out with the scanner after I have told them no. Reminds me of the old RadioShack days.

author: frozenfrogz
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 09, 2017, 05:32:27 pm
content: I absolutely despise these »bonus« cards i.e. customer tracking. However, I think about investigating a bit more in what I can do personally with all the RFID data nodes that are out in the wild being carried around by unsuspecting people.I am very interested in building one of those long range RFID readers that you can carry around but need to first learn more about antennas. Don’t feel like paying a couple hundred € for one of those HID MaxiProx 5375 devices atm.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 09, 2017, 07:26:04 pm
content: Quote from: Old Printer on December 09, 2017, 05:22:09 pmThe best part of the RadioShack days was that they'd always spell something a tiny bit differently becasue they were hand written and you'd end up with half a dozen of those stupid catalogs.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 09, 2017, 08:27:38 pm
content: We have that with Machine Mart now in the UK.I liked the Tandy (UK Radio Shack) catalogues. It gave me something to be angry at (the pricing).

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2017, 03:22:36 am
content: Quote from: jgalak on December 08, 2017, 09:08:51 pmTesla? Unfortunately, my examples were all real life and first hand. It's ridiculous.

author: Muttley Snickers
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 10, 2017, 03:37:16 am
content: Saelig recently released a video showing the different ways in which the licenses can be installed on the Rigol, might be of interest to some owners and probably belongs here.

author: Old Printer
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2017, 04:41:57 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on December 09, 2017, 07:26:04 pmUsed to love those catalogues! That was before Al Gore invented the Internet. They had specs and pricing and were worn out by the time the next one came out. When they stopped mailing them to everyone you had to be fast or know someone at RS just to get one. All us nerds knew the day they were sent to the stores and tried to ply an extra copy from the shirt protector guy there. Good old days indeed.

author: blacksheeplogic
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2017, 08:51:14 am
content: Quote from: lundmar on December 06, 2017, 05:23:13 pmKey sight does the same though MyKeysight even to get a quote. Other side f the coin is that they have your details/equipment linked to your account when you need support.With the amount of money I invested in my scopes, I did not have a problem creating an account and registering with them. After all if the company is that shady that you feel uncomfortable registering you equipment probably better not to do business with them in the first place.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2017, 08:59:20 am
content: Quote from: blacksheeplogic on December 10, 2017, 08:51:14 amThat's a non sequitur I'm afraid. I trust a pilot with my life, but he doesn't need to know personal details. Especially considering a lot of these pilots sell those details for extra cash.

author: jgalak
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2017, 03:39:01 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on December 10, 2017, 03:22:36 amYes.

author: lundmar
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2017, 04:26:47 pm
content: Quote from: blacksheeplogic on December 10, 2017, 08:51:14 amFor support I'm okay with registering. However, for simply downloading the latest and greatest firmware for your product, registering is nothing but a silly and completely unnecessary annoyance!

author: blacksheeplogic
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2017, 06:59:30 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on December 10, 2017, 08:59:20 amSo the airline the pilot works for just knows you as Mr X?

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2017, 09:24:50 pm
content: Quote from: blacksheeplogic on December 10, 2017, 06:59:30 pmThat doesn't really matter, does it? It's not a given that when you trust someone with one thing, you trust them with others. Especially when it comes to data in today's world, it's just better for people not to have it when they don't need it to serve you, unless you want to voluntarily help them with it of course.

author: orin
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2017, 11:04:38 pm
content: Quote from: frozenfrogz on December 09, 2017, 05:32:27 pmA while back, I noticed prices increasing in a local grocery store. Then they introduced one of those cards. When the cashier told me I'd need one to get their 'customer advantage' prices, I told them they had just lost a customer. They put the prices up, then you had to get the card to get the original price is what it looked like to me.I will also not willingly shop in a US Safeway for the same reason. Listen to this Safeway marketing dweebs, I have not willingly shopped in Safeway for 30 years because of your stupid card.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2017, 11:36:22 pm
content: Quote from: orin on December 10, 2017, 11:04:38 pmThere should be laws prohibiting putting financial pressure on privacy related matters. If you have a "free choice", but one option costs you money and the other doesn't, the choice isn't that free any more. Especially when these principles are applied in larger quantities. Privacy should not be a luxury.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2017, 11:37:00 pm
content: Quote from: lundmar on December 10, 2017, 04:26:47 pmTo me the price of registering to receive continued support through manuals (which sometimes goes through updating), firmware and specs is a very low price to pay.I just don't expect to continuously receive updates and support without giving anything in return.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2017, 12:30:12 am
content: Quote from: rsjsouza on December 10, 2017, 11:37:00 pmYou gave them money when you bought the product. That should be enough. If your product is complex enough to warrant support and updates after the fact, it's part of the original deal.Or you should ship a product that's perfect and doesn't ever require any updating, but we all know that's a ridiculous fantasy.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2017, 12:39:13 am
content: Quote from: rsjsouza on December 10, 2017, 11:37:00 pmYou gave themmoneywhen you bought the device.

author: lundmar
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2017, 12:48:13 am
content: Quote from: rsjsouza on December 10, 2017, 11:37:00 pmOk, let me expand my point here!If you are an instrument manufacturer and you require customers to register to access latest firmware, manuals, specs, or even MSRP - THEN YOU ARE BLOODY DOING IT WRONG!This is 2017 and the days of such arcane mechanisms are over.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2017, 01:44:09 am
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on December 11, 2017, 12:30:12 amWell, I disagree. IMHO I think the money paid for the equipment is valid for some time, not forever.Quote from: Fungus on December 11, 2017, 12:39:13 amSee above.Quote from: lundmar on December 11, 2017, 12:48:13 amIn your opinion. Capitalizing your opinion does not make it right, you know?

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2017, 09:20:40 am
content: Quote from: rsjsouza on December 11, 2017, 01:44:09 amLet's see if I've got this: If I go to their web page for firmware in the first week after purchase (for example) I shouldn't have to give them all my detailsyet, right?

author: Jeroen3
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2017, 10:47:21 am
content: I just got an e-mail from Batronix, looks like they've lowered the option pricings.My scope was bought april 2015, and they've sent me an offer for the four (memory, decoder, trigger, recoder) for € 196.35.

author: Efig
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: December 11, 2017, 02:39:21 pm
content: I also got an e-mail from Batronix. Trying to milk the customers. Mine is purchased in Jan 2015.Single option for 98.18 €, four for 196.35.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2017, 02:45:50 pm
content: http://gotroot.ca/rigol/riglol/CheaperI wouldn't have bought the Rigol if I couldn't crack it.

author: lundmar
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2017, 03:10:04 pm
content: Quote from: Efig on December 11, 2017, 02:39:21 pmI got that email too. It's a bargain - I don't know what you guys are waiting for - go buy now!

author: Jeroen3
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2017, 03:28:10 pm
content: Quote from: lundmar on December 11, 2017, 03:10:04 pmStill, 200 is a much better deal than before. Now it is actually possible to consider it.However, I already have the options unlocked.

author: frozenfrogz
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2017, 03:40:43 pm
content: I don’t think they ever sold a lot of "options".Even without the hackability I did not find the prices very appealing. Most options each were 1/4 the price of the hardware unit - not reasonable at all.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2017, 04:03:23 pm
content: Quote from: frozenfrogz on December 11, 2017, 03:40:43 pmWithout the hackability it's just another wannabe.eg. I suspect GW-Instek would have sold a lot more 'scopes without the free Rigol upgrades.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2017, 04:21:22 pm
content: I would have bought a GW GDS-1104B scope if it wasn't for the Rigol hack so your likely close to the mark there.I'm not sure I shouldn't have bought one anyway if I'm honest.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2017, 07:31:05 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on December 11, 2017, 09:20:40 amIn my opinion, yes. Well, you would have to provide some proof of ownership - the serial number comes to mind.I have registered to the myKeysight website and added a bunch of serial numbers for stuff I have purchased either new or used from eBay. The fact they leave the resources available (documents, specs, etc.) in a concise list for even the oldest stuff (a 3314, a 5300B/5308) is to me a nice service in exchange for a "low price".

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2017, 09:06:03 am
content: Quote from: rsjsouza on December 11, 2017, 07:31:05 pmWhy would I be downloading firmware for something I don't own?I might be downloading a manual to make a purchase decision, ie. I don't own anything yet but I want to see the manual. Would you block me from downloading it? That could lead to a lot of lost sales if your competitor is more open.How about we just add an optional section to pages called: "Give us your details, we'll email you constantly for the rest of your life". That makeseverybodyhappy.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2017, 09:21:42 pm
content: Keysight seems to do this too. To download the manual for an LCR meter, you have to enter your details. That alone is enough to make me look for other options. I just want to see whether the unit operates the way I'd expect it to.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2017, 09:24:38 pm
content: Quote from: rsjsouza on December 11, 2017, 07:31:05 pmWhy on Earth wouldn't Keysight want to publicly provide firmware? Having to enter your details is just an artificial barrier and they lose nothing by just providing it, other than the chance to harass you or sell on your details.Providing the service you mention is fine, but don't make it mandatory, unless you've explicitly stated it to be so in the overview of specifications listed on the website. Everyone is free to throw away their privacy, but making it mandatory is another thing completely.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2017, 11:46:44 pm
content: Problem solved

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2017, 12:17:34 am
content: Quote from: bd139 on December 12, 2017, 11:46:44 pmI tend to use descriptive addresses, like registeringfor@amanualsucks.com. Some more extravagant requests are met with more colourful addresses and details

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2017, 01:35:37 am
content: Quote from: Someone on December 06, 2017, 08:40:29 pmI have a couple of secondary email accounts for just this purpose, and I try to keep my online presence polluted with just enough bogus information to make it useless.Those Rigol scopes are getting cheap enough I'm tempted to grab one just to have a small portable DSO I can toss in my bag and go.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2017, 02:37:42 am
content: Quote from: james_s on December 13, 2017, 01:35:37 amDon't count on noise to save you. The algorithms are adept at filtering it and they get better every day. The problem is that technology is better at finding patterns than humans are at being unpredictable.

author: jgalak
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2017, 05:43:28 am
content: Soooo, since everyone is talking firmware, my brand hew DS1054Z says "00.04.04 SP3". The latest download from Rigol ends in "00.04.04.03.02". Is this the same firmware or should I update?

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2017, 02:28:05 pm
content: Quote from: jgalak on December 13, 2017, 05:43:28 amYou're looking at the ordinary system info. To see the full info you need to press these buttons (fairly quickly or it doesn't work):Menu -> Menu -> Force -> Menu -> Utility -> System -> System Info

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2017, 07:09:55 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on December 13, 2017, 02:37:42 amWell if I had real reason to hide then I'd take additional precautions, but I figure a bit of low effort obfuscation is just enough to keep me from being low hanging fruit.Frankly even if companies had a detailed and accurate marketing profile on me it wouldn't be of much value, most of what I buy is used, and very rarely on impulse. I tend to go looking for specific items, research carefully and then shop around before I buy. Advertisements generally put me off rather than attract me to a product so generally speaking companies are wasting their time marketing to me.

author: frozenfrogz
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2017, 08:52:31 pm
content: Quote from: jgalak on December 13, 2017, 05:43:28 am00.04.04 SP3 == 00.04.04.03.02

author: jgalak
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 14, 2017, 12:07:17 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on December 13, 2017, 02:28:05 pmNow that I'm at the scope, which menu? There's several menu buttons.

author: jgalak
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 14, 2017, 12:08:18 am
content: Ah, got it! The trigger menu button worked.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 14, 2017, 01:07:49 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on December 13, 2017, 07:09:55 pmThis is another discussion completely, but it turns out most consumers feel they're not influenced by commercials, make sensible and well deliberated decisions and dislike commercials. It's one of the ways humans lie to themselves, and place themselves above others. Obviously, the massive marketing budgets and research done indicate something quite different.It's a bit like how 85% of drivers consider themselves above average drivers. You don't need to be a rocket surgeon to see the problem there.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 14, 2017, 01:09:59 pm
content: I just got an email from Batronix as well:QuoteI wasn't Rigol that approachedyou...?QuoteWhat should I do?PS: The email arrived at address "batronix@mydomain.com". It's the first email that's arrived at that address since I bought the 'scope so I guess we can safely say that Batronix aren't spammers.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 14, 2017, 01:41:13 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on December 14, 2017, 01:09:59 pmLegalize it!Or, wait -- what would be the benefit, for a scope that's already well out of warranty?Hmm...Maybe not...

author: frozenfrogz
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 14, 2017, 02:27:08 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on December 14, 2017, 01:09:59 pmNice to see other people using the same technique to deal with SPAMUsing unique identifiers / addresses for each vendor has been working out well for me the past ten years as well. I also caught signs of a Trojan infection on a companies computer that could be traced back to the infected machine after getting in touch with their IT department due to this and keeping a record of most mail conversations.

author: xani
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 14, 2017, 03:11:40 pm
content: i was using myemail+sitename@maildomain but some companies started blockingSTANDARD AND VALID+ character in the email...

author: woody
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 14, 2017, 04:17:00 pm
content: And then there was Samsung, that did not like samsung@mydomain.nl when I needed to apply for the 50 euro cashback deal on my S7. Fortunately they had no problems with sam-sung@mydomain.nl

author: zike
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2017, 11:39:19 pm
content: I just received one of these and installed the (official, "$350 equivalent value", now free) unlock code. Status now reports all *available* options as "official," and they do appear to work.It does *not* now claim to be a DS1104Z, as a hacked/unlocked unit apparently would.But... I took it into the lab, and (according to venerated gods of Marconi, HP and Tektronix) the rise time is about 3.5 ns, and the 3dB bandwidth is something like 100 MHz... what gives?I don't really feel like un-installing the opts just to see if it was precocious to start with. Has anyone else tested what actual bandwidth you get out of the box with a stock, un-optioned DS1054Z ? These Rigol threads are so utterly choked with bull$hi+, you can't find anything that was actually measured.I had already generated a Riglol hack code, but under the circumstances I'll probably keep the little guy under warranty; the better is the true enemy of the good :^)

author: MarkF
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2017, 11:58:16 pm
content: There is a bw decision here:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/beginners/rogol-1054z-actual-bandwidth/msg1337110/#msg1337110I believe someone posted actual bw results in another thread. Maybe the huge "Sniffing the Rigol's internal I2C bus" thread. But, I can't find the orginal post.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 20, 2017, 05:35:16 am
content: Quote from: zike on December 19, 2017, 11:39:19 pmOther users have also found that the nominal bandwidth values stated for the 50 and 70 MHz models were conservative; although yours seems to be quite generous.You can always try to apply the "full bandwidth" Riglol code, measure the bandwidth to see how much it improves further, and uninstall the option again if you are concerned about warranty. (Uninstall all options via the SCPI command "system:option:uninstall", then reapply the official ones.)

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 20, 2017, 09:42:47 pm
content: Quote from: zike on December 19, 2017, 11:39:19 pmYes, they show "DS1104Z" in the system info.Quote from: zike on December 19, 2017, 11:39:19 pmThe bandwidth figures are quite conservative, 100MHz is lucky though. Have you tried all 4 channels?(Imagine if you unlock it...!)

author: SkyMaster
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2017, 02:51:36 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on December 20, 2017, 09:42:47 pmInstalling the Rigol licence bundle does not turn the DS1054Z into a DS1104Z.The Rigol licence bundle is installing all the available options, and the "100 MHz bandwidth hack" is not an option; it is a "hack". And this hack is not part of the Rigol licence bundle.Installing the Rigol licence bundle to the DS1054Z give you a DS1054Z with all the available options (without any "100 MHz bandwidth hack").

author: zike
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2017, 03:10:12 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on December 20, 2017, 09:42:47 pmYep all 4 channels similar. Main aberration is about 1-1.5 ns roundoff (what we used to call "dribble-up") on the last 25% of the rise (such that a 20-80% rise time would sound even more impressive...). I'm using a tunnel diode pulser with 50 ps intrinsic, and a feedthrough terminator measured at about 150 ps using a sampling rig.Re: how much better it could get with unlocking, I may yet perform the experiment; but before we get too excited remember, filter rise times are not additive! (for simple cases they "RSS", but you get the point...).

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2017, 03:16:13 pm
content: Quote from: SkyMaster on December 21, 2017, 02:51:36 amI think we are all on the same page here. Fungus' comment that "they" show a DS1104Z designation was referring to zike's last partial sentence, which mentioned the hacked, bandwidth-upgraded scopes. (Emphasis added in that quote.)

author: SkyMaster
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2017, 01:39:52 am
content: Quote from: ebastler on December 21, 2017, 03:16:13 pmebastler, based on what you wrote, I modified my comment.

author: zike
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2017, 03:26:59 pm
content: Quote from: zike on December 21, 2017, 03:10:12 pmAnd... down another rabbit hole I go. Will I never learn?Turns out my stock 1054Z, and/or hacked/unlocked pseudo-1104Z, can haveany 3dB bandwidth you like, from about 80 MHz to over 260 MHz, depending on input range.The test mentioned above used a tunnel diode pulser which is fixed at 200 mV step size. I switched to an Avtech AVO-E2 which delivers up to 50V steps with <500ps risetime. I used a Marconi 2022A and a Wavetek 1801C for CW. Test waveforms were confirmed with an HP5316B opt 003 (1 GHz) and a Tek 7904/7A24/7B85 analog scope (BW>400 MHz). A Tek 50? feedthru terminator was placed directly on the 1054Z input. This and all BNC and SMA 50? attenuators/adapters/cables employed were good > 2 GHz.Rigol inputs DC coupled, probe x1, BW limit OFF (btw I confirmed it is actually 27 MHz when ON); acq mode NORMAL, 1 Gs/sec, anti-alias OFF.I ran each test through all 4 channels. Channel 1 seems systematically a few % slower, if anything, so that is what I'll quote. This is in the pseudo-1104Z (hacked) mode:range (V/div)rise (ns)f_3dB(MHz)5 m2.714050 m2.8176500 m1.926051.5270For comparison, in the standard (stock 1054Z) mode I did not bother with the 3dB bandwidth, but here are the corresponding risetimes:range (V/div)rise (ns)5 m4.550 m4.4500 m2.151.8Some may call freebie bandwidth a "feature", seeing as how it seems to be a $$ commodity, but in my view "variable" bandwidth is definitely a bug (or more accurately, poor engineering).That said, I also do not understand how it comes about.According to the teardown and "reverse engineering" blogs, there is one physical relay-switched x50 attenuator (which comes on between 200 mV and 500 mV/div). The remaining "attenuator" settings are all accomplished by throwing away bits post-conversion (inside the HMCAD1511 ADC chip).Why would the bandwidth _increase_ when the physical attenuator is inserted?And within a range (with or without), why would the bandwidth change at all depending on digital gain settings?Just to make this post the longest in history, here are screen shots of the "pseudo 1104Z" response at 5 V/div and 5 mV/div, respectively:

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2017, 04:03:33 pm
content: Quote from: zike on December 24, 2017, 03:26:59 pmWhy "poor"? How exactly wouldyoubuild it if you're an engineer who's been told to design a 100MHz, 4-channel oscilloscope whichretailsfor $399?For all you know it might be an extremely ingenious design, given that constraint.

author: zike
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2017, 05:47:16 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on December 24, 2017, 04:03:33 pmVery sorry, I chose the word "poorly". I did not intend insult; in fact I have to agree, the design is quite ingenious in many respects! The discrete 2N3904/6 front end truly warms my heart.No, rather than call it "poor" I should instead say they appear to have overlooked a very important functional principle, and thereby missed an opportunity.First, it could add no more than a few cents to the BOM to include a passive 150 MHz filter (simple or fancy) ahead of the ADC. Even a switchable filter section or two, presuming one wanted different compensation at different ranges, would be no more bother than they evidently found acceptable for software-gelding the low-end models. I could sketch you something in a few minutes on DaveCadTMand even tell you the BOM cost if you want, but again, I know Rigol could/would do a much better job.The reason should be obvious, but to beat it to death: all test instruments have limits, and bandwidth is a fundamental one. Input voltage range should be a scalar, not a tensor.A very typical 'scope application is checking signal integrity on either side of an attenuator, filter or amplifier. Invisibly calling up a factor of two different instrument bandwidth when you simply flip input ranges to account for the attenuation (gain) means you will see artifacts at the input (output) that are not seen at the output (input). You will make false conclusions about your DUT. Suppose you look with, and then without, a x10 probe. Is your probe bad? Were you loading the circuit? Or did simply dialing up the range for the probe factor just introduce a whole new set of sampling artifacts??This is particularly egregious on a sampling instrument that has no protection against aliasing! The measured 3dB point at 5V/div evidentlyexceeds the sampling rate(not just Nyquist) when 3 or 4 channels are selected!! Even at 1 Gs/sec, in the 5V/div picture above, there are less than 2 samples in the pulse transition. The apparent pre- (!) and post- over/undershoot/ringing are obvious figments of sinc interpolation.Back in the day Tektronix worked very hard to match attenuator bandwidth within 5 or 10% from top to bottom (I don't know what they do now). This is a fundamental property of a scope front end, it directly affects functional utility as a test instrument. It is not "negotiable" for a few cents of profit margin.They really did an amazing job with this machine, and I do really like it (as an old analog geezer I never thought I'd say such a thing!). It's such a shame to miss this trick; I hope they (and you) take my comment constructively for next time :~)Cheers,Zike

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2017, 06:17:12 pm
content: Quote from: zike on December 24, 2017, 05:47:16 pmThere's already a passive filter on the 50MHz (locked) version.

author: zike
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2017, 06:48:42 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on December 24, 2017, 06:17:12 pmWhich only adds to the mystery: at 5V/div, the LOCKED (50 MHz) unit shows a rise time of 1.8 ns! That's 200 MHz.Something else is going on here. Anybody?

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2017, 07:15:47 pm
content: Quote from: zike on December 24, 2017, 06:48:42 pmYou have to do frequency sweep with a frequency generator and look for a -3dB point.Pulse measurements are deceptive..What are specifications for the pulse you are using?Pulse generator must have fast edge, but then hast to settle without overshoot at top level, and stay there for at least 10-20 nsec.. longer is better..Short,narrow pulses will show unrealistically fast response... Same with overshoot...Regards,Sinisa

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2017, 07:52:38 pm
content: Quote from: zike on December 24, 2017, 03:26:59 pmThe lower V/div ranges will need amplification in order to drive the ADC to full scale so what you are looking at is the limited bandwidth of the input amplifier.

author: zike
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2017, 09:54:47 pm
content: QuoteThanks, yes indeed. As mentioned above, I separately confirmed the bandwidth and risetime are consistent in time and frequency domains.Also as mentioned, the pulse generator is an earlier version ofthis(50 volt version), set to 200 ns width and about 1 MHz rep rate. I've tested it on much faster scopes (rise time is actually closer to 350 ps ;^). My unit happens to have a negative pulse output (dumpster divers can't be choosers!). In particular, the Avtech has no measurable (physical) overshoot or ringing and a dead flat pulse top; the ringing seen in the first photo above is fabricated by the Rigol.(By contrast, the small "dip" at 15ns after triggerisphysical; it's a transmission line reflection of the impedance mismatch at the BNC x SMA adapter.)

author: zike
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2017, 10:34:32 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on December 24, 2017, 07:52:38 pmI believe it works a different way. Look at Dave's videofrom 2014 and the links he provides below.The only changeable analog element is the 50:1 input attenuator, which clicks in above 200 mV/div. TheADC chiphas an internal "digital gain" from 1 to 50. This is selected by digitizing at >~14 bits and effectively throwing ~6 or so bits away, MSB for small signals and LSB for big. The point is the only analog element that changes between the BNC jack and code is that one 50:1 attenuator. Indeed, on Dave's diagram, everything in the fast signal path is fixed (except those transistor-operated bandwidth switches).So to reiterate: 1) analog circuit has the same gain on all ranges, but the post-digitizer output somehow gets less responsive when you use the LSB (?); and 2) that 50:1 attenuator (when interposed above 200mV/div) appears to be faster than the straight wire that takes over at 200 mV/div and below (??).Oh and 3) those bandwidth-reduction switches that are clearly doing "something" at low V/div are somehow doing "less of it" at high V/div ()

author: simone.pignatti
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 01, 2018, 09:16:48 am
content: hello and Happy New Year, starting today the BND-DS/MSO1000Z is also free in Europe.It includes:- SA-DS1000Z (RS232, SPI, I2C serial decoding)- AT-DS1000Z (advanced triggering)- REC-DS1000Z (record function)- MEM-DS1000Z (memory upgrade to 24Mpts)

author: g0mgx
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 01, 2018, 09:28:40 am
content: I can confirm this; Telonic were selling this package to anyone who asked during December and officially from January.MarkG0MGX

author: simone.pignatti
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 01, 2018, 09:42:00 am
content: I'm not sure yet if this promo will be more convenient for the users.We had a discounted price as Xmas promo which was very well accepted.This free bundle will definitely help all those who do not want to hack the unit.

author: firewalker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 01, 2018, 09:44:19 am
content: They should add CAN decoding.Alexander.

author: Zermalmer
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2018, 10:30:26 pm
content: Batronix also offer upgrade now also, but i ordered my device on xmas.Now I asked if they also give it to me or not.Curious what they will answer.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 04, 2018, 06:33:59 am
content: Quote from: Zermalmer on January 03, 2018, 10:30:26 pmI am pretty sure they will be able to provide you the upgrade. If they don't, you would simply return your scope after receipt and order a new one from them, right? (Assuming you ordered it as a consumer, not a business.)

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 04, 2018, 08:29:10 am
content: Quote from: bd139 on December 06, 2017, 03:22:53 pmYep, competition now, and a slightly long in the tooth product with which they have owned the market for a long time with.It was either that, or a new model. Could still be a new model but I doubt it, it's still very competitive (if not still a bang-per-buck winner) with the options included.

author: Zermalmer
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 04, 2018, 08:49:44 am
content: Quote from: ebastler on January 04, 2018, 06:33:59 amHi,no need of returning it... Batronix answered me that they will provide me also the upgrade for free.The only thing is that they told me that they will need 7 days to send it to me...

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 04, 2018, 08:52:55 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on January 04, 2018, 08:29:10 amIf you buy the base model and unlock it then it's still maybe the bang-per-buck winner. They can be had for $350 now.PS: Are you going to review the new Siglents?

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 04, 2018, 08:58:50 am
content: Quote from: Zermalmer on January 04, 2018, 08:49:44 amJust generate the keys yourself...

author: Zermalmer
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 04, 2018, 09:04:58 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on January 04, 2018, 08:58:50 amAlready donebut to have it official sounds also ok to me

author: johnbrown
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: January 04, 2018, 12:04:03 pm
content: Looks like to offer has now got to the UK, Telonic sayRIGOL SOFTWARE OPTIONS BND-MSO/DS1000Z (deeper memory, record & replay, advanced trigger functions and serial-bus analysis) are now included for FREE! with the purchase of a new DS1054ZLINK REMOVED

author: simone.pignatti
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 04, 2018, 12:40:38 pm
content: Quote from: johnbrown on January 04, 2018, 12:04:03 pmyou have 6 posts and 6 links to telonic website ... not badit is an official Rigol EU promo

author: jgalak
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 04, 2018, 08:44:33 pm
content: Seems like TEquipment has it now, too. (no association with them, just noticed while browsing their site)

author: simone.pignatti
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 04, 2018, 10:37:47 pm
content: Yes. USA started this promo before Xmas

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 05, 2018, 07:36:52 am
content: Quote from: johnbrown on January 04, 2018, 12:04:03 pm"Johnbrown" actually works for Telonic.Classic astroturfing.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 05, 2018, 07:45:40 am
content: Quote from: johnbrown on January 04, 2018, 12:04:03 pmExcept that this IS Telonic, what a let down, I thought they were a nice company but seems they get up to the same tricks as the chinese.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 05, 2018, 08:03:20 am
content: Indeed. At least the Chinese don’t stick those bloody awful 3mm thick bubble sticker marketing labels all over their shit

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 05, 2018, 08:03:43 am
content: Quote from: Simon on January 05, 2018, 07:45:40 amAstroturfing is pretty pathetic, and can be quite damaging in a niche market like this.

author: Zermalmer
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 05, 2018, 08:36:09 am
content: So it is for sure usefull to remove also the related link from the quoted post of simone.pignatti (3 posts above yours)

author: simone.pignatti
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 05, 2018, 11:12:03 am
content: The only thing is that they told me that they will need 7 days to send it to me...Rigol has informed the 7 days as standard delivery time for the free bundleMaybe because of Xmas season.Let’s see if this will change next week

author: Zermalmer
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 05, 2018, 01:41:56 pm
content: Ah ook, thanks

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 05, 2018, 02:00:48 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on January 05, 2018, 08:03:43 amI take it they have your permission to use your video on their website? - at least as a courtesy.

author: firewalker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 05, 2018, 05:57:25 pm
content: No explicit permission needed for sharing the video. You give your permission when you allow embedding.Alexander.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 05, 2018, 05:59:46 pm
content: Oh I see. Well I think I'll look elsewhere when I need a scope next time. I never understand why they supply that shitty little meter with a scope, as if you don't have a meter or two already some of which are probably already as shitty.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 05, 2018, 06:16:23 pm
content: It's a good stress reliever for when you find another bug in the DG1022Z that came with the free meter:https://youtu.be/s1eiwcRGb6Q

author: firewalker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 05, 2018, 06:23:44 pm
content: Does the hardware of the DS1000Z, allow CAN bus decoding? I "don;t understand" the decision not to include it as an option. The last month I am ambivalent of what to choose. I really like this scope, but I would love CAN bus decoding. I don;t really need it, but I could use it for teaching purposes.Alexander.

author: frozenfrogz
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 05, 2018, 06:44:42 pm
content: Slightly OT, but still lots of fun!

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 05, 2018, 06:45:55 pm
content: Quote from: firewalker on January 05, 2018, 06:23:44 pmYes, you said that four days ago. You can't expect Rigol to implement it that quickly.My guess is they don'twantto give you CAN bus decoding -- until they have to, due to competitive pressure, that is. In the meantime Rigol would prefer you to buy one of their more expensive scopes if you need CAN decoding. I can't see why it would be technically impossible to implement on the DS1000Z series; although Rigol's approach of decoding only what is on screen may be limiting for CAN messages?

author: simone.pignatti
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 05, 2018, 08:03:50 pm
content: I partially agree. When Rigol came with the product line it was well defined:MSO/DS1000ZMSO/DS2000AMSO/DS4000All models identify a application category.But yes. Now the market has changed and I hope Rigol will change the game again.I want to say it is not always easy to give free adds on for a manufacturer.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 05, 2018, 08:51:57 pm
content: Quote from: firewalker on January 05, 2018, 06:23:44 pmProbably.Quote from: firewalker on January 05, 2018, 06:23:44 pmWhy not use SPI or I2C decoding instead?

author: simone.pignatti
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 05, 2018, 09:12:00 pm
content: I fully agree CAN can be useful.FYI I was told (not from Rigol brand) the oscilloscope manufactures has to pay a fee for every CAN decode they sell (like Bluetooth).I don’t know if this is true or not....

author: firewalker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 05, 2018, 11:19:25 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on January 05, 2018, 08:51:57 pmBecause I teach automotive electronics to car technicians. It is a standard via OBD-II. At me moment I use a logic analyzer + a scope to for CAN bus essentials.Alexander.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 05, 2018, 11:21:45 pm
content: You can buy CAN to USB adapters and then see the actual data if you don't need to see the actual square waves.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2018, 12:12:54 am
content: Quote from: simone.pignatti on January 05, 2018, 09:12:00 pmI know that CAN used to have royalties (Bosch), just like I2C (Philips?), I2S (Philips), SPI (Motorola), 1wire (Dallas). Perhaps several of these are expired, but I don't know...

author: stj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2018, 12:42:32 am
content: i cant see the relevance.you arent implementing a canbus interface, your just displaying the data already present.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 06, 2018, 09:26:46 am
content: there is often a lot of confusion between "CAN bus" and "the J1939 standard" How CAN bus itself works is well documented and there are free programs for writing files for it so I doubt the hardware layer has licensing problems. You will find problems if you want say J1939 decoding but this is not CAN bus per se it's a protocol layer that sits on the hardware layer used in most vehicles. Where I work for example we tend to have two CAN buses in our ECU, one for the vehicle that talks the J1939 protocol and our own that just uses whatever we want and has nothing to do with J1939. I once bought a book by a muppet that pretended to explain the J1939 standard and I was suspicious when I bought it because J1939 does require a license. and in fact the book did not explain that much about J1939, it actually explained all about the hardware layer (3 times) and then waffed all over the J1939 standard without giving any detail other than a couple of examples. The book went straight back to amazon for the joke it was, there was so much repetition in it's 70 pages that it felt like Mr trump's inauguration speech....

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2018, 03:34:47 pm
content: Quote from: stj on January 06, 2018, 12:42:32 amWell, in order to display the decoded data you need a CAN interpreter to show the logical data present on the wire. If you are only looking at waveforms on the screen, no licensing is needed.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 06, 2018, 03:38:15 pm
content: You won't need a licence to interpret the waveform, the can protocol is widely and publicly documented, anyone can sit down and write software to convert the waveform to the identifier and the message contents, what you then do after that may need a licence

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2018, 03:38:46 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on January 06, 2018, 09:26:46 amThanks for the explanation, Simon. I should have prefaced my post with the fact that the last time I thoroughly looked into it was in the last millenium (1998).

author: frozenfrogz
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2018, 04:40:38 pm
content: SCNR

author: Zermalmer
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2018, 10:03:20 pm
content: Totally forgot to report, that I got my certificate which allows me to create related licence key.So everything went well... certificate and licence will be moved to the folder with related documents