FS:  FLIR E4 1.1L v1.22.0 (new) - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: JFA
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2014, 10:55:53 pm
content: MODIFIED PRICE: Asking 1600$ USDFor SaleFLIR E4 1.1L virgin v1.22.0 firmware.Brand new, unregistered (for guarantee) yet.You will get a copy of the invoice.The box has been opened to check the firmware version,to check the unit was in good working order and condition,and to recharge the battery.Never used & un-hacked(virgin firmware).No, I haven't played with it, I have bought one for my own use.Price: $1200 USD1600$ USDPayment mode: Paypal onlyItem sold from CanadaYou will get properly invoiced, for business purposes.For Canadian residents: appropriate sales taxes will have to be added. My sales tax ID number will be indicated on the bill.Shipping: to USA (continental) & Canada : FedEx Ground: 20$-40$ depending on the zone.Delivery: 3-10 days depending on the zone.

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2014, 12:34:39 am
content: Hate to break it to you, but new ones go for $995 with free shipping. Plus if you contact tequipment.net you can get the EEVBlog discount I would think.http://www.tequipment.net/FLIRE4.htmlhttp://www.testequipmentdepot.com/products.htm?item=E4http://www.grainger.com/product/22UL83Was there a recent price drop?

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2014, 01:56:15 am
content: He is offering a unit with known hackable firmware. For that he is asking for a mark-up to cover his troubles. A classic case of offering a service to those who wish to ensure that they do not receive firmware 2.1.0I have no connection with the seller.Whether the mark-up is reasonable will be for the potential buyer to consider.Aurora

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2014, 02:33:10 am
content: Quote from: Aurora on June 12, 2014, 01:56:15 amI see.Edit: But for clarification, 2.1.0 seems like faulty firmware since you can't connect it to the PC, it doesn't mean it can't be "upgraded". If you purchase one that doesn't let you download the images to your PC then you can return it, right?

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2014, 08:37:40 pm
content: Firmware 2.1.0 is a real odd release, it appears to work on a PC for some owners and not others.It all comes down to hassle factor and the continued availability of older E4 stock. I recall that I have seen several new 1.22.0 firmware E4's on e*ay recently so they are still around if you hunt for them.

author: JFA
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2014, 08:32:44 pm
content: Thank you Aurora !I paid 995$, I am selling them for 1200$. It's either that, which you hack into a 6000$ machine, or you risk getting a non-upgradeable firmware and are stuck with a 80x60 resolution.I am offering it at 1200 now because there are many still available on the market. When they become rarer, I will increase my price. Someone will be happy to pay that small premium.Do-it-yourselfers are often brought to their skills because of a lack of money. It is unfortunate that you do not study a little economics. If you were, you would be able to understand the dynamics of money much better, and better able to extract a premium from your unique talents.The education system trains creators of added value as lepers, and the money goes to people who cannot figure out how to put batteries in a flashlight.Studying the finance world for a few hours will have you stop ranting about the guy who tries to mark up his product price by 20%...Talk about money in the first place, a surrendered monopoly. Every wondered where the banks take all the money for their vast workforce and luxurious buildings?Don't get me started on that topic...Again, thank you Aurora !

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2014, 10:19:46 pm
content: I wasn't ranting, and I agree is a free market.I truly thought you were just selling it at cost and the price changed on you, I didn't even heard of the 2.1.0 not being able to be upgraded, or at least no confirmation of it yet.It's like when Rigol changed the DS2072 to the DS2072A there was an unknown and people didn't think it could be upgraded, but not only it could be upgraded later on but unlocked even a higher frequency.Can you cash $200 for an unknown, sure.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2014, 11:35:17 pm
content: QuoteJust of out interest, what is your product? I mean did you add any value to these? I guess that being quick off the mark and snaffling them before someone else adds artificial value through scarcity, but I wondered if you are selling them pre-hacked or something?QuoteEr... remind me what value you added to these again, please.I think the perceived problem is that, for instance, I might want to buy X to use for some purposes, whereas you want to buy X so you can sell it to me for more. Why on earth should I not treat you like a leper?QuoteEven wondered why the banks are not held in high regard?

author: JFA
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2014, 04:46:18 am
content: The value I added is clear and unambiguous:I remove the uncertainty pertaining to the version, at a time when the product will not be available anymore.How often people said "if only I had had the money at that time..." For a 20% markup, 200$, I will provide a machine that presently is asked 6000 for, and save that same person the risk of spending 1000 and gettting something un-upgradeable.To the guy who will have discovered that the E4 is hackable only in two or six months, it will be worth every penny, and he will immediately recognize the value in it.Value takes many forms, and not necessarily physical.And this guy, with his 1200$ machine, might be able to start a business and add value to the world that he would never have been able to do with a regular E4, nor with anything else because he wouldn't have had the 6 grands to spend on an E8 or equivalent.And that is value to the world too.BTW, I am an inventor / designer by trade. But I do understand that bringing value to the world goes as much through invention than through financing.How many dreams have been twarted because of too high a startup cost?As with many other things, time is of the essence, and money is a condensate of time-spent-at-productive-effort-in-a-precise-context.What I am offering here, is a deferred bad context (i.e. when the stocks will be gone).Did you see me go peddle an hacked E4 for 2000$ to plumbers and HVAC guys at a 1000$ profit ? They all wet their pants looking at it.Nope, I offered it at 200$ profit to hackers go gave me so much on this forum, gave me a 6000$ functionality for 995.But if I get too much of that welcome message, I might go peddle it to plumbers, who typically are vastly more wealthy than hackers and will consider it a deal.That piss-poor attitude is why many technical guys are not rich and passive agressive with an air of superiority, pissed at the industry: because often, they do not understand that things have no intrinsic value, but only market values.This transaction is about me purchasing the guy's dollars against my merchandize, because the dollars are more valuable for me that the merchandise.The guy sells his dollars to me because he thinks his dollars are less valuable for him than the merchandise I offer.In any free-market transaction, there can only be win-win. The seller is not responsible for the market conditions. The market is very vast. Do you think I depleted the stocks of E4 ? Do I owe anyone to keep the stocks for them?Back to the education topic, many engineer's lack of economic understanding, we are kept in the dark pertaining to those things at technical / engineering school; the last thing the paper pushers want is to have creators with business saavy. Mushroom treatment: keep'em in the dark, feed'em on shit.

author: JFA
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2014, 04:53:41 am
content: dunkemhigh: Are you looking to buy an E4 1.1L v1.22.x or lower and cannot locate it ?

author: all_repair
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2014, 05:52:34 am
content: Quote from: JFA on June 14, 2014, 04:46:18 amWhat you wrote is not wrong but you are selling to the wrong market and so the market value is at most 5% up, or on par. So next time when you run a kickstarter, you shall be rewarded handsomely. If Mike and the others will to run a kickstarter project, I can bet it shall be a runaway success. People like him has built a Relationship with everyone else here, and it has a much bigger market value than a 20% margin transactional sale.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2014, 10:10:08 am
content: Quote from: JFA on June 14, 2014, 04:53:41 amNo: I have a ThermaCAM, which suits my purposes already.

author: JFA
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2014, 12:31:00 am
content: and it has a much bigger market value than a 20% margin transactional sale.Indeed.However, I considered it very bad taste to cash in on the goodwill of the guys who did the real hacking. So I decided to take a reasonable 200$ of profit.I could have gotten directly to the local plumbers and HVAC guys...I actually bought the last four units I could find.However, researching the field, I now realise that I might as well start a termography business, having acquired inventory, with spares, that cost less than a single machine. FLIR is notoriously bad on warranty service. Or I can even rent them at 2-400$ per month, way below the price for 320*240 performance.My options are open, and I can spare the capital invested in them at the moment...The field seems to be developping like crazy.We live at an exciting time !

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2014, 10:43:19 am
content: QuoteThat's part of the problem.Last Xmas I wanted to buy a Tesco Hudl, a new 7" tablet. I could get it for a bit less than RRP because I had club points accumulated (in fact, I accumulated the club point because I could get a Hudl cheaper). RRP was £119 and I could get one for a fraction under £100.At least, that was the theory but in practice Tesco had sold out before I could order one. And the reason they'd sold out was because world+dog had scooped them all up and then put them straight on Ebay for £135. Some people had even put them on Ebay before receiving them from Tesco, and they were all sealed items, not even unpacked for the photos.So, here was me that actually had a use for a Hudl. I only wanted one. And the others had no use for them at allexceptto gouge an extra £35 from me. That sucks, whichever way you look at it.Now, it's a free world and you can see from other threads that I take the view that no-one is forcing anyone to buy this stuff (in my case I didn't buy a Hudl until after March when Tesco finally had stock they could keep hold of). If you want to sell these cameras at whatever markup you like, and someone is willing to buyt them at that, I have no problem there. What I took issue with is this:QuoteYou denigrate those of us that choose not to make a profit at others expense. It may not be that we are financially naive; it may just be that we don't see money as the be-all and end-all that you appear to do. That was why I asked what value you added: I thought maybe you did something that I had missed, but in fact you did exactly what those Hudl ebayers did, and then dressed it up.Perhaps you will now say that you saved the last four items for EEVblog members to buy (at a markup), whereas an alternative view is that you took the last four off the market so genuine purchasers (that is, people with an actual need for one) couldn't buy at the normal price but would have to pay you a fee on top.Again, it's a free world. Just don't think everyone should be super-grateful to you.

author: JFA
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2014, 06:56:57 pm
content: OK. Here's another view:YOu want to buy from Dealer X, but you do not know if the one you'll buy are the proper firmware. You say "hey, since you live near Dealer X, would you go buy it for me and check in the inventory if that's a good firmware? "I say "sure, but I ask 200$ for my trouble." which is about the cost of my time for driving there, capital cost for my car, wear, gas, time at my usual billing rate, time to remail it to you, paperwork incurred. 200$ would be fair.And I DID ask you if you had the money for buying one at 995$ + shipping and you did NOT take the offer...Now, what about the guy who learns of the hackability LONG AFTER all the stock is gone ? Would my offer not be good to him?And my profit allows me to run my own developments. Are your development and projects more valuable to you than mine are to me?Are you a saint because you choose to not take a profit? I don't think so. Taking a profit involves risks. Did you have the discretionary 4 grands to shed out for acquiring inventory?I have to thank you on one thing: you really made me clarify my thinking on the topic. I really think I ought to go peddle them to plumbers at 2 grands apiece, and hoard as much inventory as possible...

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2014, 08:09:33 pm
content: Shelling out money to buy inventory is easy. Selling something for a profit is not. Who is going spend $1200 on a piece of equipment worth $995 without any waranty?

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 17, 2014, 07:37:46 pm
content: This thread has taken the path that I expectedOn THIS occasion I do not have an issue with what the OP is doing. My comments below:1. Anyone can buy a product and advertise it with a mark-up .... it is for the buyer to decide on VFM2. The E4 1.22 and earlier FW is a finite stock resource and will become unavailable in time.3. FW 2.1.0 uses public-private keys and may be very hard to hack/upgrade.4. When FW 1.22 become rare, their prices will sky rocket as they did with 1.19.85. The OP is NOT advertising hacked E4's and so not selling the hack per-se.6. Many potential buyers ask sellers what FW is installed and get a very negative response or none at all. They may be willing to pay a premium for a guaranteed FW 1.22 camera ? Their choice.7. To the best of my knowledge the OP has not deprived anyone of a FW 1.22 E4 as they are still available.8. It is becoming harder to find suppliers with stock as many are now receiving 'Just in time' deliveries from FLIR that will be FW 2.1.0.So in summary, lets not get all judgemental on this occasion. People sell stuff on ebay for profit all the time, this is little different as the OP is not claiming anything except a firmware version and clearly stated price for a camera.Flir sell these cameras for almost $1600 in the UK, and that is an issue as there is little excuse for such from the OEM, especially as the cameras are made in Estonia (Europe)Aurora

author: JFA
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2014, 01:50:12 am
content: I was told that FLIR is one mess of a company, one side not knowing that the other side is doing, and that they are so backlogged that their selling direct is not to control inventory but because they want to satisfy demand ASAP (while dealer immobilises inventory and reduces widespread availability, i.e. they can't cope with the overall FLIR products demand)

author: tjb1
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2014, 12:47:14 pm
content: Quote from: JFA on June 18, 2014, 01:50:12 amBecause people like you go buy up all of them just to resell them for $200 more because you plugged it into the computer and read what FLIR Tools told you the firmware is.

author: JFA
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2014, 01:25:50 am
content: I received the E4 I had sent back for warranty repair because the UP switch was defective.Despite my very clear instruction to the dealer, they upgraded the firmware to v2.3.0Luckily, when I sent it, with the owner of the dealer store, we had scoured his inventory to find a remaining V1.22.0 and he kept it in his office.So, he gave me the v1.22 that he kept apart for me weeks ago.I now have another new, virgin, unregistered E4 1.1L v1.22.0 unit.

author: Zepnat
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2014, 10:01:42 am
content: Do the hack and sell it for 1200 that would be cool, offer me a second hand unit for greater than new price, hmm feel like I'm being ripped off. Just my two pence

author: JFA
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2014, 11:35:19 pm
content: It's about time I advertise to the HVAC crowd and get a grand of profit per unit...My mistake, I tried to be nice, to offer it only for the price of the trouble to a courrier...

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2014, 01:18:59 am
content: We'll be here waiting when you are going to sell them cheap because the HVAC people want units from a dealer with support and warranty

author: JFA
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2014, 06:54:34 pm
content: I already sold one to my auto mechanic, he has maintenance contracts for snow-removal machinery. He loves it for finding overheating bearings, mostly. 1600$ Ka-chink !

author: JFA
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2014, 07:00:05 pm
content: As of 07/07/2014: 1600$ USD O.B.O. + shipping (see first post for other details)