From Eagle to KiCad - Is it worth it? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: ppTRN
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2023, 08:44:03 pm
content: Hi,I am an Eagle user, and it seems to me that it is a whidely spread opinion that since it was held to Autodesk it is not receiving the - how can I call it - "necessary attention". I use eagle both for work and for education (I am a teacher), so having a full license is not an issue.Now the big question. Would you suggest me to INVEST TIME AND ENERGY in switching to KiCad?I am not asking this question lightely, i know that learning KiCad is going to take time and effort, so i would expect some kind of return in the long term. Speaking of "long term", another reason i am tempted to switch to KiCad is that updates seems to be more frequent and consistent.Thank you.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2023, 08:52:37 pm
content: You don't really have an option (apart from switching to something else). Eagle is officially dead. The only path forward is the Fusion 360 integrated version, but as they admitted themselves, it is mostly a complete rewrite.I was a heavy Eagle user and I did the switch around the time KiCad v6 was released. It was not painful at all. It took some time to figure out where the things are. And I would not switch back even if Eagle somehow became relevant again. KiCad is just better.In education setting Fusion 360 may be a good option too, but it still won't be the old Eagle, so you would have to learn new stuff anyway. And in that case might as well use KiCad.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2023, 09:08:53 pm
content: Quote from: ataradov on January 13, 2023, 08:52:37 pmYeah. I remember having claimed that a while ago (maybe one or two years ago?) and got some pretty strong reactions.But history is showing we were right.Quote from: ataradov on January 13, 2023, 08:52:37 pmI never liked Eagle and fortunately haven't had to use it myself in ages - except for just viewing designs.But I have used Altium and Cadstar extensively, and switched to KiCad 6 a few months ago. I already had some experience with KiCad, but of course there are some quirks you'll learn along the way, as with any other CAD program.For switching, the most painful part, which is not specific to KiCad, are the libraries. If you are a long-term user of Eagle, you probably have large libraries of parts that you have built and validated over time, and you'll have to more or less start from scratch again. Also, don't trust third-party libraries too much, always check. There's a LOT of dodgy KiCad symbols and footprints out there.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2023, 09:15:39 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on January 13, 2023, 09:08:53 pmAt this point they explicitly stated that in their forum post. So, this is not a speculation or a guess anymore, it is a fact.Quote from: SiliconWizard on January 13, 2023, 09:08:53 pmI only use my own libraries and that was the first thing I did - migrate all my libraries (apart from a few devices that were only useful in a single project long time ago). It took about a week. But it also gave me an opportunity to clean up my graphics and general library structure. And doing that gave me a lot of training to get used to editing features, grid behaviour and stuff like that.Thankfully both systems use plain text files for the libraries, so the pin assignments and other really critical parts were done in the text editor, where it is much harder to make an error and the process is pretty fast.

author: ppTRN
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2023, 09:19:43 pm
content: That's it then. So sad to watch such a powerful software just die. But I guess that's the price for progress. Since we're here, any suggestion on where to start? Phil's Lab youtube channel often posts videos of entire boards designed with KiCad. I may start there.As you said, the main problem is just to learn again how to quickly find commands and, most importantly, learn to design components that are not in any built in library

author: Benta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2023, 09:23:39 pm
content: @atadarov and @SiliconWizard:Excellent points that reflect my experiences 100% as well.Thanks.

author: Benta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2023, 09:26:34 pm
content: Quote from: ppTRN on January 13, 2023, 09:19:43 pmhttps://forum.kicad.info/Check the FAQs (top of page) first, then get an overview of the threads running. Friendly and helpful forum.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2023, 09:29:51 pm
content: Quote from: ppTRN on January 13, 2023, 09:19:43 pmI'm not aware of any tutorials. At the time v6 was just released and most of the material was about v5, and they have some substantial differences in the workflow. So, I just started working on a random board with a microcontroller and a few Buttons/LEDs to have some concrete project. And the rest I was just googling or asking as I went. This let me start building up the libraries with basic components as well .

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2023, 09:36:41 pm
content: There are video tutorials on YT, with varying quality.But your best bet is to start with the official documentation:https://docs.kicad.org/The forum mentioned above is also a good resource.

author: Benta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2023, 09:41:52 pm
content: BTW, there is one limitation you need to know before opting for KiCAD:The philosophy/flow is laid out asone project -> one PCB, which works perfectly.If you need a system that will handle daughter boards with backplanes, modules etc.; it can be done but is really kludgy and tortuous.That's the main decision factor (to me, at least).

author: retiredfeline
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2023, 09:49:22 pm
content: Just make sure that you view videos that are about v6. There are a lot of old videos out there are about v5 or worse v4, and you'll be confused when the screen doesn't match the video or there are better ways to do things now.

author: Doctorandus_P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2023, 12:27:22 am
content: Quote from: ppTRN on January 13, 2023, 08:44:03 pmAnother wholehearted yes. KiCad is definitely worth investing some time and energy to learn.I switched to Linux about 7 years ago and was in need of a PCB design program and I took some trials with about any program I could find that worked on Linux. I tried eagle back then but I did not like it. The forth or so program I tried was KiCad, and I liked it so much that I did not even look at the last of the other options. I just staid with KiCad. Part of that decision is that I like open source software a lot. I rather donate to open source projects I like, than pay in advance for commercial software. It did have some serious limitations back then, but there is quite a lot of development in KiCad, and the development of KiCad has also been increasing significantly over the last few years.KiCad V7 is also just around the corner. (Release expected end of January) There is a long thread on the new features in thePost V6 threadon the KiCad user forum:https://forum.kicad.info/t/post-v6-new-features-and-development-news/32633There are now 84 posts in that thread of announcements of new features, and that is just from a single year of development.Because I have been KiCad now for quite some years I don't look at beginners tutorials much, but I've seen parts of severaly youtube video's and they seem to cover most of the basic workflow quite decently. They also miss out on some nice KiCad features that are less obvious (such as repetition with the>key. TheKiCad like a probook from Peter Dalmaris may be worth it's money.https://techexplorations.com/so/kicad-like-a-pro-3rd-edition/And you may be able to use his course material in your classroom.The KiCad site itself also has some pointers to learning resources:https://www.kicad.org/help/learning-resources/

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2023, 01:07:28 am
content: Quote from: ppTRN on January 13, 2023, 08:44:03 pmMaybe take a step back: why Kicad specifically? Do you need a low cost package? And who are you educating? Perhaps your students will be better off using a commonly used commercial package that gets them a headstart at their first job. IOW: I'd investigate where your students are likely to end up, figure out which software is commonly used and get an educational license for that software.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2023, 02:26:03 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on January 14, 2023, 01:07:28 amKiCad is free, students that use it at school can install and use it on their own personal machines, that is a HUGE advantage in this scenario. If they go on to do PCB work professionally they can learn Altium or whatever easily enough. I tried out a lot of EDAs when I got started and found the workflow is broadly the same for all of them, once you know the workflow learning a new tool is just a matter of learning the quirks.

author: ppTRN
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2023, 07:44:14 am
content: Wow, didn't expect such strong opinions. Anyway, i think I should clarify more about the reasons of migrating TO KiCad. I teach in an high school, so the free option is great, and KiCad seems to be more "student friendly" than others such Altium or Proteus. More about my personal jobs: I usualy stick to simple design, small pcb with uC and a little bit of discrete components. The doubt I am start to having are about my future professional life! What if i seriously start making more advanced PCB? Altium or OrCad might be more useful, but learning how to use them will take a lot more effort than KiCad. Also, I am still studying Electronic Engeneering so i migh be able to get free year-to-year renouvable license for Altium.Anyhow, getting away from EAGLE seems to be the only thing you can all agree upon.

author: LazyJack
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2023, 07:48:47 am
content: Exactly. I used OrCAD, Protel - Altium a lot. Once I decided to try KiCAD with version 5, I had my first PCB designed by evening that day. So if you know the way EDA tools work in general, you'll have no problem using any of them. Sure, it will take a lot of time to be master in the specific tool, but you start with simple projects and gradually build up. The most pain is libraries and old projects, but that is not really KiCAD's fault, you have this problem any time you change a tool.However, since KiCAD is available to anyone, there are not restrictions like pin count or layers and it is multiplatform I think it is ideal for education purposes. Sure there may not be extensive (but not neccesarily good quaility) training material or documentation like commercial packages may have, but frankly, I think part of studying and becaming an engineer is to be able to figure out stuff.KiCAD is absolutely fine for teaching the EDA workflow, so I say go for it.

author: djsb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2023, 10:31:13 am
content: I mostly use Kicad, but also have a personal perpetual Licence for Altium 21.4.1. I work in a UK university, and we also just use KiCad for our 3rd year embedded systems class. Students are able to work on their PCB design's OUTSIDE the formal classes and make use of YouTube Video's for learning. It also helps that I've also been using KiCad for over 15 years and can help students with support. All of our PCB designs for hardware in our classes are also made with KiCad. It took a while to get KiCad on our PC's but I kept pushing for adoption and now it's worked out fine.It also helps that Kicad 7.0 is able to import both Altium schematic AND PCB design files as well as Eagle (which I have not used much). Version 7 is currently in release candidate stage (RC1 so far) and is heading for final release at the end of January. The release candidates can be downloaded from herehttps://kicad-downloads.s3.cern.ch/index.html?prefix=windows/nightly/HTH.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2023, 11:03:23 am
content: Quote from: james_s on January 14, 2023, 02:26:03 amI don't know about Orcad but Altium has free student licenses as well so there is no difference there.Edit: Both Orcad and Altium have free student licenses as well so there is no difference there.It is about the end goal. Is the goal to learn the students to use a professional CAD tool that they likely encounter at their first job? OR is it all about having a quick way to get some boards designed? For the first Altium / Orcad are good options, for the latter Kicad is likely a better fit (but don't go around thinking you'll find Kicad at places where they do a serious amount of design work). With just Kicad under the belt, a student will have a harder time getting a job that requires CAD skills compared to having some Orcad / Altium experience (or whatever is popular in Italy). Despite all the fanboyism you have to stay realistic.When I started my EE study, I was thaught Orcad and have been using Orcad for the majority of the designs I have done because most of the employers I have worked for used Orcad.

author: Doctorandus_P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2023, 11:10:43 am
content: Quote from: ppTRN on January 14, 2023, 07:44:14 amWhat sort of complexity do you have in mind? On:https://www.kicad.org/made-with-kicad/you can see about 50 designs made with KiCad, and several have much more complexity then I would ever need to make myself.Altium also already claims to have KiCad import, and as KiCad is getting more popular, other programs are also more likely to get import functionality for KiCad files. Because of it's Open Source philosophy and documented file types, KiCad files are relatively easy to import. As of V6 all of KiCad's files are standard S-expressions, and this means that getting a KiCad design file into memory is just a few lines of code and this also helps a lot with writing an importer.I don't agree with this:Quote from: nctnico on January 14, 2023, 01:07:28 amFor students, it's not about learning some PCB program, it's about the principles of schematic and PCB design and how the parts all fit together. Influences of GND planes and routing, etc. In the end the program itself is just a tool, and Once you've learned how to design a proper PCB, then switching to another program is relatively easy.I also have very strong feelings about Open Source software and the philosophy behind it. Especially in educational settings it is a huge advantage if the students can freely install and use the software for self study.I also do not give much credit to "free student licenses" of commercial software, especially when they are temporary. It's unlikely students will go from university straight to a PCB design job. With Open Source software they can keep on using the software (and get updates) indefinitely, and this makes it easier to keep on using the program for hobby purposes, and in turn this keeps the learned skills current.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2023, 11:16:12 am
content: Quote from: Doctorandus_P on January 14, 2023, 11:10:43 amThat is a fatal way of thinking especially where it comes to electronics CAD software. Every piece of electronics CAD software I have come across works fundamentally different even though the output requirements are the same. The only thing you know is that something should be possible but the differences between the software is like night and day. Naming conventions are slightly different etc. I have been designing boards using a computer for over 30 years now and every time I switched to a different package, there is a huge learning curve taking 200 to 300 hours before getting to a level where I can use a piece of software efficiently. Again, if somebody already has a couple of hundred hours under the belt with a specific package, that person will have a huge advantage over other applicants applying for the same job.

author: Doctorandus_P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2023, 11:33:19 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on January 14, 2023, 11:16:12 amI also designed my first PCB over 30 years ago. That does not mean much apart from your implied age. I don't know at what level these students to reach in PCB design, but it's unlikely they will spend more then 20 to 50 hours on schematics and PCB design. When I started with KiCad (about 7 or 8 years ago) the "Getting Started in KiCad V4." guide was excellent, and I designed my first PCB with KiCad in the same afternoon I installed it for the first time. It does indeed take much more time to get to know all the little details, accelerator keys and tricks to work efficiently with a program, but are the students expected to spend that much time with it?Another thing that is easy to look over if you've designed PCB's for 30 years is how you got started. Drawing a schematic in a logical way, so it's easy to read for others too. Matching schematic symbols with PCB footprints, Importance of GND planes, differential pair routing, length matching, getting stuck by not leaving enough PCB area for tracks, EMC considerations during PCB design. All those and more are things that first time students have to learn too, and that knowledge is more important than knowing which buttons to push in a certain PCB design program.

author: ppTRN
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2023, 01:38:57 pm
content: My goal as a teacher is not to teach students how to use a specific EDA that they will likely find at work, but it is to explain all the rules in pcb designs and the manufactury process.Quote from: Doctorandus_P on January 14, 2023, 11:10:43 amThe design proposed pretty much reflect my needs, if not even more.

author: tchiwam
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2023, 02:02:01 pm
content: Here's a few quirks Kicad hasInner layer vs Outer layer / per layer net definition on the PCB is all manualPassing differential busses with P N endings are not possible in [] making for very long Hierarchy connectors.Impedance control using board stack up is rather limited and very manualFor what you are doing, none of these should affect you.

author: ppTRN
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2023, 02:13:49 pm
content: And what about sincronization with other devices? Using eagle i simply sync the EAGLE folder in MEGA and add the sincronization in all the PC i need. Does KiCad offer an embedded solution?Other than this, i guess that it will be my job (other than my pleasure actually) to doscover all of its features.

author: Karel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2023, 02:45:48 pm
content: Like many others, I use Git to do that (I did it for Eagle and now I do it as well for KiCad).

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2023, 03:54:33 pm
content: Quote from: Doctorandus_P on January 14, 2023, 11:33:19 amAll the more reason to choose a piece of software that is commonly used; you'll catch 2 birds with one stone. IMHO you are too focussed on hobby & maker use. Most EE students will not do tinkering for a hobby. They expect their education (for which they pay a lot) to set them up for their first job properly. A common complaint from employers is that there is a disconnect between what is taught at schools/universities versus what skills freshly graduated students need to make a flying start at their first job.

author: djsb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2023, 04:39:37 pm
content: I've just put the keyword "Kicad" into a popular job search engine here in the UK (indeed.com) and this resulted in 22 job hits (which is more than I was expecting to be honest). This includes a job at Airbus at Filton and several others around the UK. A search using "Altium" results in 351 jobs, so yes, Altium is a package used more in industry. However, the students I work with are NOT EE students, so our offering is tailored to our student cohort (industrial design students). Kicad allows the basics to be taught, and community support by way of forums and online video's is plentiful. Most importantly, I'm able to help them get up to speed quickly.P.S I'm more than willing to train students to learn Altium designer, but my employer would have to pay for my training first. I have not asked for this as there is no demand so far. Kicad does everything that we need and more.

author: ppTRN
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2023, 04:55:37 pm
content: My students are not EE students, but High schoolers (in Italy we have tech schools with several specializations, elettronics being One of these) so i think that kicad would be more than appropriate. Again, the most important thing for me Is that they learn as fas and as effectively as possible the basics of PCB making. On the other hand there is my personal work Life outsider school, in which i still think kicad light be useful. If not, i can Always switch again to another EDA, only time Will tell. Surely your suggestions and advices are likes Gold to me

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2023, 06:54:45 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on January 14, 2023, 03:54:33 pmThese aren't EE students. They're highschool students. This is like wood shop or world history, most students are not going to become carpenters or historians, it's part of a general education to give them a taste of things. Hobbyists and makers are precisely what most of these students are going to be, if they continue to do anything at all with electronics.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2023, 06:56:41 pm
content: Quote from: ppTRN on January 14, 2023, 04:55:37 pmIf that is the case, you might want to look at EasyEda as well. Even if it is just to validate your choice for Kicad. One of my startup customers is using EasyEDA to get some boards made without having to make big investments in CAD software. I have not used it myself (except for browsing around to look at their schematics) but it looks like a really low threshold to get into entry level PCB design. It is web-based so no need to get software installed and/or mess with libraries.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2023, 06:58:55 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on January 14, 2023, 06:56:41 pmWhy would anyone even consider web based crap when there are proper locally run applications available? I have yet to encounter web based productivity software that was comparable to a real desktop program.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2023, 07:41:38 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on January 14, 2023, 06:58:55 pmIn the real world I have several customers that use web-based software. One of the biggest advantages is that documents are shared instantly and being able to work on the same document at the same time in realtime. Every now and then I'm in meetings where I'm editing a document with multiple people at the same time. Try to do that with a piece of software that is installed locally.Now I would not really recommend to use something like EasyEda for complicated boards. However, it can be an easy way to get going with PCB software for people that need to get going quickly. Having software installed by students on their laptops running all kinds of crap that may interfere, a web-based solution avoids a lot of potential headaches.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2023, 07:47:30 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on January 14, 2023, 07:41:38 pmWe do that all the time in my day job. MS Office supports shared files that multiple users can work on simultaneously. Some people use the web based Office 365 but I have the full package installed on my laptop and it works seamlessly. The company used the Google suite for a while which is web only and it was awful, I was so happy when they announced after an acquisition that we'd be going back to MS Office.

author: Benta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2023, 09:04:44 pm
content: Quote from: djsb on January 14, 2023, 04:39:37 pmEmployers putting that in a job offer are not looking for technicians or engineers, but for temps filliing a vacancy until the task can shopped out to India or China.A serious employer would look for someone with the right skill set, EDA being one of them perhaps.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2023, 08:17:50 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on January 14, 2023, 07:41:38 pmAs james_s has said (and you have actually said yourself in the quoted post), jointly working on a document in real time requires that thedocumentis shared online, not the software.Microsoft's Office products demonstrate that nicely: Locally installed software which offers the full functionality and can run in offline mode; multiple people can open the same online document and make edits in parallel; you see others' changes in real time and see where they currently are in the document via little initialed markers.

author: Doctorandus_P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2023, 08:33:40 am
content: I just tried to recall what PCB design software we used at school but I can't remember. I think the total time we used that software was also for just about 6 to 8 hours. We did not do the PCB part, only some schematics.I was not very motivated and just "sat though the motions". If the software we had back then could also be used at home for hobby projects, I would have had a lot more motivation to learn it.

author: screwbreaker
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2023, 08:40:42 am
content: Quote from: Benta on January 14, 2023, 09:04:44 pmOr, they are interested in someone at his first job or just graduated.It's almost impossible for a private user to get experienced on Altium. It's too expensive.KiCad is a good start point.

author: tim_
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2023, 09:17:58 am
content: Quote from: james_s on January 14, 2023, 06:58:55 pmAs an example, all electron based apps are identical between the offline and web based version. Examples: VSCode, MS-Teams... (The latter may benefit from a native implementation...)

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2023, 12:09:01 pm
content: Quote from: Doctorandus_P on January 15, 2023, 08:33:40 amYou just didn't push hard enough then. Back then I used Orcad (which I learned to use at school) and Protel Autotrax to design all kind of boards; I got that software from a friend and learned how to use Autotrax by trial and error. Internet as we know it didn't exist. Then again, Autotrax didn't have much in terms of advanced features except for an autorouter that worked really well for digital boards with DIP chips.Nowadays the situation isn't much different. If you want, you can use Altium and Orcad for free for hobby & educational purposes. It just takes wanting to make the effort to get there.

author: tchiwam
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2023, 01:29:04 pm
content: I once use Fritzing for young kids 10 to 15. It was pretty fun to use. I wonder how's that project going.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2023, 01:36:43 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on January 15, 2023, 12:09:01 pmThat would be for a hobby that does not last longer than 30 days? Or for hobby projects which I never want to share with anyone, since they bear the watermark of some pirated Altium copy?Or did I overlook some hobbyist license offer from Altium? Thanks!

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2023, 02:36:30 pm
content: Quote from: ebastler on January 15, 2023, 01:36:43 pmWhat is the problem with a watermark -if such a thing even exists-? Do you really think Altium or Orcad will come after you for a few home-brew boards? They'd be very happy if you share your designs because it means more market penetration for them. Making software popular has always worked that way. Ofcourse things are different when you start making money using Altium / Orcad (or any other commercial software package), then you'll need to have a valid license.

author: screwbreaker
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2023, 03:28:06 pm
content: Some people, especially during the university days, don't have or use windows.A program that run on any os is the best choice for teaching.Or for share projects.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2023, 06:40:30 pm
content: QuoteWhy not? They may have decided on a particular package for compatibility with existing designs and/or their other engineers. Wouldn't they be a bit lax to let in someone who uses some weirdo thing and then pushes off, leaving their work completely different to everyone elses?

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2023, 06:50:19 pm
content: Quote from: tchiwam on January 15, 2023, 01:29:04 pmHopefully death by fire. Granted I can see where it would have applications with young children, but I groan whenever I come across some project that has a cheesy Fritzing drawing in lieu of a proper schematic. It just takes so much more mental effort to decipher, it's not much more useful than a photo of a PCB. I learned to read schematics from a Forest Mims book when I was probably 8 years old and I don't recall it being particularly difficult so I don't really see the point in crutches like Fritzing.

author: MadScientist
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2023, 08:58:20 pm
content: Quote from: Benta on January 13, 2023, 09:41:52 pmYeah , really tirtuoud you just place the projects in the same directory , trrribky tortuous !!!!

author: Benta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2023, 09:05:24 pm
content: Quote from: PlainName on January 15, 2023, 06:40:30 pmThat will hopefully never happen in a well-managed engineering department. If that is the case, the business is a shambles and deserves bankrupcy.A qualified technician or engineer will be be proficient inanyEDA package wtihin a week, which is the smallest bit of being integrated into a workplace. Normally it takes a couple of months to be fully efficient in all regards.Stating the desired SW skills in an implies that the company wants a monkey,notskilled personnel.

author: MadScientist
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2023, 09:06:19 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on January 14, 2023, 03:54:33 pmAs someone who employed 20 engineers including pcb designers , it doesn’t matter what eda package you know it matters you understand pcb design. Hence knowing a specific Eda Is not a cv advantage unless it’s a luck the shop uses the safer EdaGiven kicad 7 is approaching Altium functionality kicad is the one to learnFunnily several EEs I know also do hobby EE workAny engineers design circuits professional pcb designers layout boards

author: Benta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2023, 09:06:54 pm
content: Quote from: MadScientist on January 15, 2023, 08:58:20 pmAre you drunk?

author: MadScientist
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2023, 09:09:31 pm
content: Quote from: Benta on January 15, 2023, 09:06:54 pmJust apple spelling But perhaps another drink willImprove thingsBut multi pcb projects in kicad isnt “ torturous “ by any means

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2023, 09:14:11 pm
content: Quote from: Benta on January 15, 2023, 09:05:24 pmYeah right... do you really want to spend money on training somebody for a couple of months? For big companies it might not be a problem to pay a couple of months while the employee isn't very productive AND keeps other engineers from doing work but smaller companies typically hire engineers designers that at least have made some PCB designs with the CAD package they are using so they can make a flying start.

author: Benta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2023, 09:28:17 pm
content: Quote from: MadScientist on January 15, 2023, 09:09:31 pmdid you happen to switch the keyboard layout? Apple seems to be fun, never had one, though.But seriously, when you get into the multi-PCB thing, it really does create issues.There are endless threads about it over onhttps://forum.kicad.info/

author: Benta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2023, 09:34:29 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on January 15, 2023, 09:14:11 pmIn that case, an external consultant might be more to the point.I've only worked for companies that expected a newcomer to stay for a long time, getting integrated into the whole thing.You seem to have only experience with the "hire-and-fire" type. I always stayed away from those.Each to her/his taste, I guess.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2023, 09:51:36 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on January 15, 2023, 09:14:11 pmUh. The average time before an engineer becomes really "productive" in R&D is about 6 months, especially when they are junior.If you need instant productivity, then you use contractors. And even then, "instant" is often a nice illusion, unless the task at hand is extremely well defined.And EDA tools are really such a small part of engineering that it's not even a question. Switching to a new EDA will take a couple hours to a couple days at most unless the person has no clue what they are doing, in which case hiring them may not be the best idea ever. Getting used to the company's internal processes will usually take much longer than this.Finally, I don't like universities promoting commercial tools anyway.

author: MadScientist
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2023, 10:08:35 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on January 14, 2023, 11:16:12 amAs you say they will have a 200 hour advantage which is nothing in the context of a permanent job. One is expected to learn more packages all the time

author: MadScientist
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2023, 10:11:13 pm
content: The key factor in hiring a pcb designer is just that it’s not a skill in a given package that’s merely a bonus

author: MadScientist
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2023, 10:13:31 pm
content: Quote from: Benta on January 15, 2023, 09:28:17 pmYes endless threads largely by amateurs running old versions and shonfont understand the workflow to begin with.

author: fourfathom
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2023, 10:38:24 pm
content: Weren't thesehigh school kidsthe OP was talking about? So we're not discussing training PCB designers for immediate employment. KiCad is a fine tool in this case, for all the reasons already given. I will admit that when I started my electronics career we were putting Bishop Graphics tape and pads on vellum (later graduating to blue and red on each side of a film sheet), but in my career (and retirement) I've used many different PCB toolsets. I don't think that it's critical to teach these kids the flavor of the month. Familiarity with the general process and encouraging enthusiasm is what I would aim for.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 16, 2023, 12:26:03 am
content: Quote from: Benta on January 15, 2023, 09:34:29 pmSorry, but you are reading things that aren't there. Jumping to conclusions. I really don't get wanting to hire someone with specific experience has anything to do with wanting to fire people. It makes less than zero sense to me. There are lots of companies out there that have small engineering teams with maybe 1 or 2 EEs who are 200% busy (hence the need for a new hire). For such companies it is essential to hire someone with experience. There simply is no time for an employee to dick around for weeks before he/she becomes productive. This has nothing to do with hire&fire. Most companies over here are very keen on keeping engineers on board because good ones are extremely hard to find.

author: Doctorandus_P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 16, 2023, 08:51:43 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on January 16, 2023, 12:26:03 amAnd those companies are not going to hire newbies fresh from school either. It seems your mindset is looking in another box than what OP has in mind for his students.

author: ppTRN
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 16, 2023, 10:38:32 am
content: Quote from: fourfathom on January 15, 2023, 10:38:24 pmMy point exactly. Students need to learn what a ground plane is, not which button to press to make one, or what a differential pair is and what are the best practices to make one. From a purely educational point of view i think that an EDA needs to be simple, free, but capable of allow students to create their own projects even just for fun.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 16, 2023, 12:16:20 pm
content: This may all be sensible from an ivory tower PoV but companies pour a lot of money into capturing unsullied minds at schools and universities. They wouldn't if it didn't benefit them. Perhaps the classic example is Microsoft and Office (and Windows, come to that).It's just another form of advertising. Someone needs something and all things being equal (that is, they know nothing but have to pick one) the thing they will go for is the one they know about, either from subliminal messaging or because they've used it previously.

author: JPortici
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 16, 2023, 12:57:15 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on January 14, 2023, 06:54:45 pmEven though our politician did everything in their power to destroy the public education system in italy, using the united states as a model of all things, we still have technical schools that instead would/should be more akin to the technical institutes in germany. Students coming out of these schools should be prepared to be highly skilled technicians with the right amount of hands on experience. I attended such school, our education level was simillar to a bachelor degree (and until some years ago they were more or less interchangeable. I can teach high school if i want to, whereas current graduates need at least a BS and a bunch of specific credits). Now some of these technical institutes even offer higher level education courses, that are again comparable to a BSAnyway, back then (12 years ago) we would use EAGLE because of the free version and active community, though my very first PCB in school was laid out in AUTOCAD, since it was so simple.Today if i had to teach a class i would teach with KiCad. Back then i would have not touched it with a ten foot pole, but 6.0.10 is another story. And version 7 should have all the UI fix i would have proposed

author: ppTRN
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 16, 2023, 08:25:56 pm
content: So anyway, i got confused and started using Altium instead.Jokes apart, many of your messages really made me think, and pheraps I should use KiCad at school, and Altium for my private professional life. As I already said, I have a student license that is year to year renouvable. This is also a chance for me to start working with both.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 16, 2023, 08:38:06 pm
content: Those student licenses become VERY painful once you are not a student anymore. As a small business or a private person, always look into how Altium treats their customers. It is a racket. As a big corporation, you are more or less locked in, but on a smaller scale you have so many better options.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 16, 2023, 10:36:04 pm
content: QuoteI think it's beneficial to be competent in more than one package - you don't get sucked into the One True Way of doing things, and you're aware of things that can be achieved that a particular package doesn't support. And, as a side benefit, you can see through the unintentional bias that some users have when noting how great their choice is.As ataradov notes, if you plump for Altium it could be a very expensive and painful wakeup if you drop off the student license (and they may drop it themselves at any time). If your business can afford that it's fine, but until you're paid up it's hanging over you. Kicad has some issues but seems to be pretty decent and well supported. It's hard to imagine that it might get backburnered, and is surely going to keep improving.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 16, 2023, 10:40:10 pm
content: Quote from: ataradov on January 16, 2023, 08:38:06 pmWhatever CAD you choose (free or commercial), there is always a form of lock-in due to the libraries and existing designs. It is better to take promises of being able to import/convert designs with a truck load of salt. Mostly they don't work due to fundamental differences in how traces, nets, clearances, copper pours, pads, etc are treated by the various packages.How much you are willing to pay for a package is up to you.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 16, 2023, 10:46:39 pm
content: This is a great reason to always go with FOSS whenever possible. Even if it goes out of development you can always run an old version, even if only on a VM to access your old designs.

author: fourfathom
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 16, 2023, 10:52:43 pm
content: And again, remember that there is a difference between "preparing for a career", and "learning how to do stuff". I wouldn't object to having high school kids make their own single-sided circuit boards using a Sharpie marker and ferric chloride etchant. In fact, that might be a great way introduce the subject, starting from the ground up. Infinite layers of abstraction can always come later.I helped out at a local high school STEM center, and while I approve of anything that provides hands-on experience, I was a bit disappointed that there were many layers of underlying fundamentals that weren't being considered. It was mostly plug-and-play with Arduino parts and Lord help them (or me help them) if something wasn't soldered or a if long skinny ground wire carried both signal and power. Yeah this wasn't an "electronics" class, but it seemed that Project Management was considered to be more important than anything else.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 16, 2023, 11:20:13 pm
content: Quote from: fourfathom on January 16, 2023, 10:52:43 pmUnfortunately in corporate world project management is where the money is, much more so than the engineering side of things.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 17, 2023, 12:05:45 am
content: Quote from: james_s on January 16, 2023, 10:46:39 pmAnd how is that any different for commercial software? I'm doing exactly that with various pieces of commercial software... Just make sure you get a perpetual license that is not node locked one way or another.

author: dobsonr741
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 17, 2023, 01:17:56 am
content: Not much time investment is needed to switch. If you already an OK user of Eagle, then you know the design workflow. It never mattered to me what the UI differences are.I’m using KiCad 6 now, I used Eagle, OrCad, Smartwork and the workflow did not change since the 80s. All transitions to a new CAD were a few hours to try out the UI controls. Again, you need to know what you want the UI to do for you.

author: m98
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 17, 2023, 02:11:53 am
content: I guess unless you're specifically aiming for a career as a PCB layout engineer, KiCad will pretty much dominate the market. Someone mentioned Airbus job postings, with Kicad v6, I already know some departments switching over from Altium for new projects.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 17, 2023, 03:03:39 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on January 17, 2023, 12:05:45 amIn the old days it's not, but in the modern world so much of the commercial software relies on online activation to get it working or even periodic phoning home for it to stay working. Is that not the case for Altium?

author: MadScientist
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 17, 2023, 03:33:25 am
content: As a general comment abdokutjy dump Eagle , Kicad v7 is more capable anyway

author: aeberbach
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 17, 2023, 04:55:00 am
content: KiCad 7 also brings support for 3DConnexion Space Mouse devices (and likely the open source equivalent hardware). It is very neat to be able to pan and zoom around a schematic or board with one of these things!

author: JohanH
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 17, 2023, 06:55:49 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on January 17, 2023, 12:05:45 amAt least some companies forbid by policy to run outdated, unsupported software (security and license reasons).

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 17, 2023, 10:42:59 am
content: Quote from: JohanH on January 17, 2023, 06:55:49 amSuch policies become very fluid under customer pressure (and a VM is a neat sandbox to run whatever you need). In the end it is a choice, not a technical limitation of any kind be it commercial or open source software.

author: Doctorandus_P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 17, 2023, 11:19:09 am
content: [Open Source Rant]The thing I like most about Open Source software is the philosophy behind it. It's people helping each other to make the world (a little bit) better. After that comes the lack of anti features. You don't have to mess with licensing files, online registration, artificial limits (layers pad, count, etc) and other such nonsense. When I bought a new PC about a year ago, installing a fresh Linux Mint was a breeze. It took me about 5 minutes, maybe 10 if you include getting it from the internet and putting it on a USB stick (from my old computer). Same with all other software I use. Most are just a single command line away from installing. (Or use the GUI "software manager" from Mint). And with the package management, you PC pretty much keeps itself updated. You only have to start the update process at a time that is convenient to you, and your OS does not only update itself, but also all installed programs. [/Open Source Rant]As to the original topic:From Eagle to KiCad - Is it worth it?It's definitely worth it. KiCad is a quite capable PCB program. Some people are still using eagle from before autodesk took over and killed it in a bunch of steps. Switching from eagle to KiCad takes some getting used to, but as far as I know KiCad has now become better then eagle was back then, and KiCad's growth rate is accelerating. And what I hear from people switching from eagle to KiCad they are quite happy with it.Quote from: ppTRN on January 16, 2023, 08:25:56 pmThis seems reasonable, especially since you apparently already know how to use Altium and have a perpetual license. I am curious about your experiences with comparing it with KiCad. KiCad can import altium files, and altium claims to be able to import KiCad (From what I gather the file format changes in KiCad V5 -> V6 broke it)

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 17, 2023, 11:32:20 am
content: QuoteShould that not be 'Closed Source Rant'? Otherwise it seems you're ranting about open source, which I am pretty sure you weren't

author: JohnG
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 17, 2023, 02:46:46 pm
content: Quote from: ataradov on January 16, 2023, 08:38:06 pmThis has been my company's experience, and it has not been a good one. It seems like things have gotten much worse over the last few years, but maybe it is just the fact that we have grown enough and now have enough licenses that we are ripe for picking. This poor treatment has motivated us to take a hard look at KiCad. You can imagine just how poor the treatment is if you consider that we have multiple commercial licenses and years of experience, and have still decided to give KiCad a real chance.We have just finished importing a design, cleaning it up, and it has been sent out for PCB fab. Assuming all goes well, we will switch most new designs to KiCad. Interestingly, initial testing of V7RC indicates that we can use the exact same database for both PCB tools just by having extra fields for the KiCad symbols and footprints, along with the extra footprints and symbols, of course.So, while KiCad may not have everything everyone needs or even everything we want, it appears to have everything we need.John

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 17, 2023, 02:53:02 pm
content: QuoteWhat are you using for a database?

author: JohnG
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 17, 2023, 05:20:17 pm
content: MySQL. We tried SQlite, which worked fine with KiCad, but not the commercial software. We have a contractor who has been working with us for several years now and has done most of the work on this and in setting up our original database. Note that the database work has been done with KiCad 6.99/7RC, which should be 7 stable(ish) soon.The total transition is not a small amount of work. We will sorely miss outjob files, for instance, and some other things as well. However, we have some perpetual licenses, so we view this venture as reducing, not eliminating, our commercial footprint.I am sure we will discover various gotchas as we proceed, but there have been a lot of gotchas with commercial software as well, and support for that ranged from very helpful to useless.John

author: MadScientist
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 17, 2023, 05:50:13 pm
content: Switching Eda tools is no “ biggie” I moved from dipttace to kicad and the transistion took a few hours , my first kicad design was fully functional

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 17, 2023, 05:55:20 pm
content: Quote from: MadScientist on January 17, 2023, 05:50:13 pmYeah right... now include setting up/converting libraries, templates, understanding how to setup the output, cross section, design constraints, learn all the hotkeys / configure these, etc, etc. Sure you can draw a board outline and slap on some components from the library that comes with the software within an hour. Getting really up to speed with a CAD tool is a different story though. Try to create a complicated footprint with odd shaped pads for example.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 17, 2023, 06:00:16 pm
content: QuoteThanks. I am using SQlite with Altium - the normal drivers are rubbish in that Altium doesn't see changes unless the libs are manually refreshed, but I switched to the Devart ODBC driver and there is no such problem.

author: JohnG
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 17, 2023, 08:10:24 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on January 17, 2023, 05:55:20 pmIf you multiply this by the number of users, it's even more challenging. Nevertheless, we are moving forward, even though we had some inkling of the challenges. So far, it has gone more smoothly than expected (we didn't have high expectations).John

author: MadScientist
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 24, 2023, 08:20:26 pm
content: Quote from: PlainName on January 17, 2023, 06:00:16 pmMy comment was more directed at the learning curve not the conversion process where there is existing designs etc. this is a length of string. What I meant was kicad was intuitive enough to get going quickly , equally I went from eagle to dipttace and found dipttace quick enough to get going also

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 24, 2023, 11:27:46 pm
content: Ah, OK

author: 0xFFF0
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 01, 2023, 06:06:03 pm
content: You have to answer the question differently. Would I take kicad if it cost $1000? NOOO!!! Eagle or Altium offer a lot more and are pretty much flawless. kicad never comes close. kicad is only used because it's free.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 01, 2023, 06:18:55 pm
content: I would still take it for $1000 if it was a one time payment that is not tied to license servers.Ans given recent Altium prices, $1000 does not get close. And they hold you hostage every year.

author: woody
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 02, 2023, 06:56:45 pm
content: Quote from: 0xFFF0 on May 01, 2023, 06:06:03 pmNot in my case. I still remember I shelled out yet another €600+ to finally upgrade to the largest (biggest? most capable?) version of Eagle. A few months later Eagle went the SAAS route. Bye bye, investment in Eagle. It made me angry and it made me try Kicad. And, as they say, I never looked back. Certainly, Kicad has its quirks, as Eagle had, and I had to learn to work with these in both cases. Kicad is free, but I pay them a small fee with every design that makes it into a real PCB. And I donate every now and then. Without any reservations. Because Ilikeusing it.

author: ppTRN
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 14, 2023, 09:11:22 am
content: It's been a while now, and i cannot be happier to have switched form Eagle to KiCad. I must say that a few things required more than just a few minute to adjust, like the assignment of footprints that is not done at the same time i choose the component. But overall, after a few days, i found it much more convenient than the eagle alternative. The GUI is much better then Eagle's and i find that the whole project flow is much more pleasing than eagle's.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 14, 2023, 03:04:12 pm
content: Quote from: ppTRN on May 14, 2023, 09:11:22 amYou can specify the default footprint. I do that for all my components and rarely I have to change it. This is especially useful for components where there is one-to-one match between the symbol and a footprint. You never want to change it and setting a default saves a lot of thinking later.

author: ppTRN
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 14, 2023, 03:51:58 pm
content: There it is, still learning. I surely will assign some defaults then, i'll find the option

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 14, 2023, 08:01:47 pm
content: I make my own libraries, even when some parts are taken from the KiCad libraries. My symbols are all assigned a footprint, and all footprints I use, I try to assign them 3D models too (many 3D models are missing from the KiCad footprints.)My symbols are not just assigned a footprint, but also a number of fields such as the MPN.