Microsoft to intentionally brick Windows 7/8 Update on Kaby Lake & Ryzen Systems - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Faith
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 18, 2017, 10:46:32 am
content: So, what gives? Microsoft have obviously learned absolutely nothing after the whole "Get Windows 10" fiasco in attempt to force users onto Windows 10.I guess Microsoft admitting that it "went too far" with its push for Windows 10 was nothing but hot air.https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/help/4012982/discusses-an-issue-in-which-you-receive-a-your-pc-uses-a-processor-thahttp://www.zdnet.com/article/microsoft-begins-blocking-updates-for-older-windows-versions-on-newer-hardware/There is absolutely zero reason for this to happen. I am actually typing this post on a notebook with an Intel Kaby Lake i7-7700HQ processor; and it works. As a matter of fact, it works even better now with Windows 7 than it did with Windows 10. It boots faster, it feels a lot more responsive, I can actually install the drivers I want without Windows 10 pretending it knows better, I don't have to deal with ads in the Start Menu, Lock Screen, Windows Explorer, or anywhere else. And et cetera.Oh, and my settings don't "automagically" reset back to Microsoft's own preferences after every other Windows Update.Now yes, before anyone points it out; I am more than aware that Microsoft said some time ago that they will not be supporting Kaby Lake on anything other than Windows 10. There is however a very big difference between "not supporting an unsupported configuration" and "intentionally bricking an unsupported configuration (which Microsoft does not like)."What a joke.

author: grumpydoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2017, 11:16:20 am
content: Blocking updates is annoying and clearly done to try to force people to update but it is not quite the same as bricking the PC.What are they doing for people with legacy setups running in VMs?

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2017, 11:22:24 am
content: Has nothing to do with learning. MS are doing this on purpose, they want to push Win10 on all windows PCs. I've heard that some companies are starting to think about moving away from Windows because of all the "great" features of Win10 that make it unusable.

author: amspire
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2017, 12:08:29 pm
content: The whole point of Windows 10 and the continual updates (rather then periodically releasing new windows version upgrades) is that Microsoft do not want to have to support different versions of Windows any more - they want one version of Windows and have everybody on the most recent update. That is their dream anyway. That is why when Windows 10 came out, they made it very clear that the Intel 6 series was only going to support pre-Windows 10 for about a year (which they extended) and I thought they said the 7 series would only be supported on Windows 10.Windows 7 and server 2008 will expire in Jan 2020 - that millstone will be gone from Microsoft's neck. Windows 8.1 goes after another 3 years or so, and then they will be left with only Windows 10 for PC's, tablets, etc. From then on, everybody will be on one version of Windows (if they want support from Microsoft). It is expected they will drop the Windows 10 and just call it "Windows".If you want to keep running Windows, this is the plan you are signing up to. Of you do not like it, run something else.

author: rdl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2017, 02:10:58 pm
content: Amazing as it sounds, I have discovered that Windows 7 can run without updates. I've been running a copy of Windows 7 for nearly 6 months now that has never been updated. This is probably not a great idea for a machine that regularly needs to be used for internet browsing, but this computer is used solely for a specific type of application and nothing else. I use Linux when I need to run a web browser.

author: Ampera
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2017, 02:55:30 pm
content: As I have said many times before, the world would be a better place if Microsoft disappeared and we were forced to find a better option for operating systems like Linux where features and development can be a group effort, not just a company being a dick about things.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2017, 03:04:38 pm
content: Well, a monoculture is great, as those who had plantations of the Gros Michael, and the current farmers of the Cavendish. Likely in 20 years your children or grandchildren will ask what did they taste like, and you will struggle to do so, as they will be no longer extant, due to a fungal infection that is wiping them all out.Only thing that will be left is some variety of plantain, that will not taste the same.Or those who are growing monocultures of wheat, maize, tomato, carrot or potato, which are direly affected by various pests and infections, as they have so little genetic variation and there are many that kill them.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2017, 04:18:42 pm
content: I just skimmed the linked articles but I missed the part about 'bricking' a machine. Sure, you don't get updates and there is a little annoying dialog but the machine still runs, doesn't it? Did I miss something? Just turn off auto-update and relax!So, somebody bought the latest whiz-bang chip, presumably for some features, and now they expect Microsoft to go back to Win 7 and incorporate the changes? Not just fixing problems, adding new code. I can see where Microsoft wouldn't want to do that.I suppose it could be a surprise to those who built their own systems but it's not like the word hasn't been out there for more than a year. If you want to use the latest hardware, fine, but you have to use the latest software. Seems reasonable to me!All this crap about problems with Win10 is just nonsense. It works fine! I have it on my Surface Book and another desktop machine. It is faster to boot and equally as easy to use as Win7 which I have on my HP All-In-One. It has been compatible with every application I have installed.As to Linux, sure, I have it on 2 desktops and a laptop and I have been using it for a very long time. There is no way in the world that Linux EVER replaces Windows. Currently, it covers about 1.55% of all desktops against about 85% for Windows (all flavors):https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usage_share_of_operating_systemsIf, after 25 years, Linux hasn't penetrated more than a couple of percent, chances are it never will. The users have spoken!

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2017, 04:23:44 pm
content: Quote from: rstofer on March 18, 2017, 04:18:42 pmBut we're not expecting that, we're expecting to get the same updates as everything else, which are 99.9999% CPU independent.

author: MarkS
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 18, 2017, 04:34:26 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on March 18, 2017, 04:23:44 pmThis. I didn't build my computer with an operating system in mind. Granted, at the time, my plans was Windows 7 (pre-Windows 8 ), but it wasn't the driving factor in my parts choices. I don't "need" Windows. I can run Linux just as well if not better, and if I am truly crazy, turn it into a Hackintosh.This is nothing more than Microsoft telling their customers "screw you" and forcing the latest version on everyone, no matter if it fits their needs.

author: R005T3r
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2017, 04:35:11 pm
content: Time to switch to Linux and forget windows. Once you get used to Linux, you can do more stuff in less time!

author: MarkS
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 18, 2017, 04:38:16 pm
content: Quote from: R005T3r on March 18, 2017, 04:35:11 pmWhen you can do 100% of the necessary activities required for running a computer without even knowing that a thing called a "console" exists, as you can with Windows, I'll agree. Until then, Linux is a toy of power users and Windows haters.

author: Nusa
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2017, 04:48:03 pm
content: Just because the automatic windows update system is blocked, doesn't mean the updates are unavailable. There have always been legitimate ways to download update packages for off-line installation. All microsoft has done is make it annoying.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2017, 04:50:43 pm
content: Quote from: Nusa on March 18, 2017, 04:48:03 pmBecause it wasn't annoying enough when they intentionally broke it so it can take hours.Determining which updates are applicable and which aren't without the aid of Windows Update will be an utter nightmare.

author: Nusa
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2017, 04:57:09 pm
content: Quote from: MarkS on March 18, 2017, 04:38:16 pmActually, if you include the smartphone and embedded systems market, one could argue Linux has already won. Android is built on Linux. That router you're using is probably running Linux. The list of smart devices running Linux is extensive.

author: MagicSmoker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2017, 05:10:38 pm
content: Quote from: rstofer on March 18, 2017, 04:18:42 pmOlder software that uses "safedisc" or similar type copy protection absolutely will not run on Windows 10 - the necessary driver file is blocked from running - but even the "nodisc" hacks* fail to work much of the time.* - and not (just) because of the obligatory malware that usually comes with such.

author: grumpydoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2017, 05:18:19 pm
content: Quote from: Nusa on March 18, 2017, 04:57:09 pmI'm reading EEVblog on a Linux Desktop running Scientific Linux, connected via a Wireless AP running OpenWRT(Linux), I'm actually connected via Ethernet, not WiFi but use it for the VLAN switch, that goes to a PC Engines APU-C which I use as a router/firewall - again running Scientific Linux. From there the VDSL modem is a BT Openreach one running OpenWRT - I have some hacked ones running stock OpenWRT but the one downstairs is running the BT firmware.The VPS I use for hosting and a few other bits and pieces runs CentOSIs that enough Linux for youIdohave Windows machines for my own use and the family's. Mostly 7 but I have a Windows 10 laptop - the "I need to updateNOW" mentality is too annoying which is why, for the moment, it will remain the only Windows 10 machine but otherwise it is fine. Actually thinking about it, I need to check on the phone home settings and make sure Microsoft haven't turned them on behind my back which is another annoyance with 10.Increasingly we do not control the electronic gadgets that we possess. The current M$ move is part of that - I resist as much as I can.

author: rdl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2017, 06:09:37 pm
content: Most of the things that most people do with a PC are done with the web browser. These people could easily be using Linux and barely tell a difference. I'd guess that most of the non-internet stuff they do is just movies, music and that sort of thing, which is also something that Linux handles very well. I'm pretty sure the only reason Windows still exists is because there's a profit focused company marketing it. I doubt the majority of people using Windows actually care what OS they use, or how it works and what it does for that matter, and are simply following the path of least resistance.

author: H.O
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2017, 06:38:22 pm
content: Crap. I haven't updated my computer (ie the hardware) since 2012 and had just now (like two hours ago) compiled a list of components for a new system, including an i5-7600K Kaby Lake. I already have a spare W7 license I was planning to use as I saw absolutely zero reasons to go W10 - untill I stumbled across this post that is. Hmmm, perhaps I'll just stick with this old system then...

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2017, 07:09:20 pm
content: Who caresI'm running DawnOS and it has its own cpu.https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/dawn-operating-system/It's running brilliantly and I can use Paint or Its poor playing Chess program, whenever I want.True it takes ages to boot, is crazily slow and maybe won't ever run anything else and I keep on getting the "No cpu found error - try again in 10 years time" error message.Why can't Europe or a bunch of countries or even a bunch of companies get together and say this is a CRAZY OS situation, lets develop our own good one. E.g. Based on Linux, extended and made more user friendly, then go with it. Even if it cost a bit to buy e.g. £20 a time.I think of Micro$oft as being a massive, conning money grabbing, monopolistic/partly-cheating company.Or let the governments of the world, pass laws to fix the situation.Computers are very critical to modern life and so should have a sensible operating system.E.g. The Governments shouldBANa computer coming with an insisted paid licence to Micro$oft, it is crazy. I.e. Micro$oft has their own rules and regulations about when/if they will allow a computer manufacturer to put windows on their computers. I.e. Very monopolistic.tl;drEither governments or companies or users, need to band together and fix this problem.

author: Ampera
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2017, 12:58:50 am
content: This is why we need to funnel more resources into Wine. I love Linux. I would LOVE to use it, but the thing stopping me from using it is the lack of software support. I have practically 0 support for a LOT of Autodesk stuff, and as a person who likes to play video games, I have less to pick from in that area too. Being a Java programmer isn't bad on Linux. You can still get most of the regular IDEs like Netbeans and Eclipse (Netbeans FTW).And this is the song sung across the board. Linux is a GREAT operating system. It's infinitely configurable in every single possible way from UI to kernel, but it just doesn't have enough software support.

author: Faith
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 19, 2017, 02:04:26 am
content: Quote from: H.O on March 18, 2017, 06:38:22 pmJust buy a Skylake processor. Kaby Lake has pretty much zero IPC improvements over Skylake.I'm actually in the middle of building a new SFF desktop as well, and I originally got myself an i7-7700K for it (only because the i7-6700K wasn't in stock at my favourite hardware shop during the time I purchased my motherboard and a few other bits and pieces). Now that it is back in stock however I'm going to swap the processor.Quote from: Nusa on March 18, 2017, 04:48:03 pmOh, definitely. I maintain my own Windows 7 ISO with most important updates slipstreamed into it (along with USB3 and NVMe drivers to make OS installation more straightforward). Having said that; since Microsoft is going out of their way to make automatic updates a bigger pain in the ass for Windows 7 Kaby Lake users, what's to stop them from implementing CPUID checks directly into future updates themselves? Given Microsoft's recent behaviour I seriously wouldn't put it past them to do this.I do already use Linux on my primary productivity system, but I do still maintain at least one Windows system for gaming and light browsing. Though I may just ditch the "browsing" bit in the future if security updates become too much of a chore.

author: MarkS
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 19, 2017, 04:48:53 am
content: Quote from: Nusa on March 18, 2017, 04:57:09 pmI believe we are specifically talking about personal computers, i.e., desktops and laptops. Windows is too bulky and closed off for much embedded use.I have yet to use a Linux distro that did not require console access and always without instructions. I have to search for the Windows console. The difference is that I do not need it for 99.999% of the tasks that I complete in Windows, and do not think for one moment that I am an average PC user. The only time I dig out the console is when I am trying to compile an open-source application that doesn't include Visual Studio project files.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2017, 06:10:30 am
content: Quote from: MarkS on March 19, 2017, 04:48:53 amFor what?QuoteSo how did you know you needed console access?

author: jonovid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2017, 06:27:58 am
content: Quotesadly its all True. the irony is it all started with a backlash against money grabbing, monopolisticBIG BLUE IBM !maybe its time for the next OS backlash or IT disruptor.

author: MarkS
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 19, 2017, 07:05:42 am
content: Quote from: Monkeh on March 19, 2017, 06:10:30 amIt's been a few months since I started up my Ubuntu distro, so I don't remember the specifics (my short term memory is failing; specifics are hard more than a few days out unless I had reason to store it in long term memory). What I do remember is that there was no escaping the console.Quote from: Monkeh on March 19, 2017, 06:10:30 amNo instructions on the console commands or how to use them. If console access was required by a program/process/whatever, instructions may have been given for that specific case, but if I couldn't do something with the GUI and needed to go to the console, I was left to search Google with search terms that do not exist in my head. A frustrating proposition, I can assure you! I have yet to see an instance of console access that couldn't be accomplished if the developer of the app/whatever had just written a GUI-based element to handle it. Again, you can go for years on Windows and not even know the console exists. You're hit with it during Linux installation and it doesn't end after that. Linux needs to get past this or there will never be wide adoption among home PC users.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2017, 07:12:57 am
content: Quote from: MarkS on March 19, 2017, 07:05:42 amSee, I can install Ubuntu on any one of these machines and never see a console - so I have no idea what you're somehow bumping into. Shit, I can probably install something on the Itanium I use as an anchor without seeing a console. As far as documentation, there's LOADS of it, frankly a lot of it is easier to deal with than Windows documentation.As far as getting past using the console (.. which again, I wouldn't be using anyway with the likes of Ubuntu.. thankfully, I don't use Ubuntu.) and gaining more GUI elements to gain home user adoption: Please, no. We're already being crippled by simplifications at a preposterous rate, please no fucking more of it. Send them to Apple.

author: Karel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2017, 07:21:24 am
content: Quote from: MarkS on March 18, 2017, 04:38:16 pmActually, the number of times you need a console in Linux is less than the number of times you need to edit the registry in windows...Windows is a toy for gamers and Linux/Mac haters.

author: MarkS
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 19, 2017, 07:25:21 am
content: Quote from: Monkeh on March 19, 2017, 07:12:57 amThat may be fine for you and 90+% of Linux users, but for those of us still using OSX/Windows, it will never pass muster. The console MUST go away before most casual users will make the switch. Linux is still too steeply based in the UNIX-style text commands for those that grew up using a GUI. My first computer was a Macintosh 512KE back in 1984. I only dabbled in DOS and found it frustrating. I have never relied on a text based OS for day to day work and I'd dare say that more than 90% of computer users haven't either. I may not be able to site specific cases for my own Linux use, but tomorrow, count each time you jump to the console and report back with that number. Each time you access the console, ask yourself if what you're doing can be done sans console. If it cannot, report that number as well. I haven't touched a Windows console in weeks; the last time was to compile wxWidgets.

author: Karel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2017, 07:27:14 am
content: Quote from: Nusa on March 18, 2017, 04:57:09 pmLinux is the most used operating system in the world and still growing. The only exception where Linux isn't king is the desktop.Personally, I like it that way. Let the masses use something else and act like a lightning rod for virusses and malware.

author: bitwelder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2017, 07:45:43 am
content: Quote from: MarkS on March 18, 2017, 04:38:16 pmWhen will be possible to *efficiently* manage a fleet of Windows domain computers (including changing settings that Microsoft doesn't publicise too much) without using Powershell, you might have a point.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2017, 08:01:03 am
content: Quote from: MarkS on March 19, 2017, 07:25:21 amErr, see, that's not going to work out how you think.My text editor is.. a text editor. It lives in a CLI. I work on headless servers, I work on embedded hardware, and quite frankly a properly used CLI is faster than clicking in Windows. So no, I'm not going to count how many minutes I use my computer, and I'm not going to ask myself if I could do it more slowly and awkwardly. Even simple file management is faster with an appropriately used CLI, let alone navigating slow menu systems.If you use Ubuntu, getting into a console should be a very rare occurance, just like Windows. You can do most everything that same slow, dragging way. If you are encountering the need to use the console with Ubuntu, you are probably trying to do something out of the ordinary.QuoteI grew up using a GUI - really started on a Performa 6200CD in the mid 90s. I dabbled in DOS and found that the 70s were, indeed, the 70s, and that DOS is not comparable to modern computers.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2017, 08:40:14 am
content: I use a console to do some little things, most common is a script to do a particular podcast, as using wget with it is a lot easier than navigating the website to get to the download link for it, plus the filenames follow a convention that makes the single line a much faster option than a click through to the pages.Edit, just started the single thing in BASH history, and literally 7 key presses to do so. Using the website I would have to wait till tomorrow for them to update there.

author: TerraHertz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2017, 09:11:48 am
content: The only "obviously learned absolutely nothing" I see, is the people whostillthink Microsoft is their friend (or ever was) and all the 'little flaws' of MS Windows are just mistakes due to some kind of misunderstanding between Marketting and Software-dev.No. Microsoft is your mortal enemy. Bill Gates fully supports the objectives of the Global Cull and its various precursors such as Globalism, one world government, re-wilding, Agenda 21, pushing AGW as justification for major de-industrialization, forcing mass immigration of savages and trained undercover armies of occupation to destroy social cohesion, , dumbing down the people via vaccines that cause auto-immune attacks on the brain in childhood, and most especially, gradually removing the ability to actually use computers for anything productive, by turning the OS into a cross between spyware, app-rental hub, pay-per-view entertainment/conditioning, and advertising channel.Microsoft's strategy has always been to push further than they know people will stand for, then backslide a little once MS has evaluated the level of public outrage. Then next time they push they will go 'too far' again, wait, backslide a little... Very few people recognize the continual incremental progress MS achieves towards their goal. Which is us, cooked lobsters in a pot of boiling water. No access to independent, private and secure computing systems, in this case.It's NOT about economics. They don't care. The Rothschilds, Soros, Gates, etc, are already rich enough to not give a f*ck about more money. They have a dream, and that's all they pursue. It's a world with about 500 to 700 million total population, with them as absolute rulers in a totalitarian single world government consisting only of the Elites. Everything else you hear them say is misdirection, to keep the gullible fools sitting in the warming pot.

author: R005T3r
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2017, 09:35:15 am
content: Quote from: Nusa on March 18, 2017, 04:57:09 pmIn my opinion android sucks, and even if it's linux, shouldn't be considered as equal as other distributions: they have done a terrible mess with it.Not to mention all the security issues because they are laughable, and I'm not talking about goverment/law enforcement spying on you, I'm talking about anyone who has a little knowledge about how to install an application on it can install a spyware into your phone bypassing everything, and it can be done remotely! In any linux distribution these things won't happen!Also, the way it handles the apps it's a terrible mess: when ever it boots up it has to load all the apps that are encapsulated in disks. Ridiculously slow and total nonsense!but what brother me most is that there's Java everywhere... As a result low end phones model are not usable at all and you are forced to spend a ton of money into something that after 1 month is already old and split it's value in half...

author: Karel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2017, 10:43:22 am
content: Quote from: R005T3r on March 19, 2017, 09:35:15 amI agree. Android is a castrated form of Linux. Google took a vanilla kernel and ripped of most of the goodies.At the same time, it shows again the power of Linux, the ability to tailor it to your needs.This, combined with the GPL license, has made Linux to what it is, the most succesfull OS.

author: bitwelder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2017, 02:17:31 pm
content: Quote from: Karel on March 19, 2017, 10:43:22 am... and put a Java-like framework on top of it.

author: cheeseit
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2017, 03:26:53 pm
content: I like Microsoft, Windows and my computers with Windows 10 that I got for free.

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2017, 03:41:07 pm
content: For free?http://www.pcworld.com/article/3178683/windows/microsoft-ads-invade-windows-10s-file-explorer.html

author: edy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2017, 03:50:06 pm
content: I've been running Ubuntu Studio on my main laptop and installed various other distros for LiveUSB/DVD to try. Any older machine I have gets Lubuntu and for 99% of the stuff I need and family/kids it's enough.- Web browser- LibreOffice- MAME- media/music/MOD player- Kodi- Scribus- GIMP- KritaI love Linux but I agree the average user has no clue.It's too bad they can't take advantage of older cheap or free hardware and break out of Microsoft dependency or on the continual upgrade cycle. But you know the fact is thanks to that, those of us using Linux have an advantage! Hahaha! How many people dump perfectly good machines all the time complaining how slow they are or Windows won't work on them... we Linux users can take advantage!

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 19, 2017, 04:47:29 pm
content: Quote from: madires on March 19, 2017, 03:41:07 pmAll is going to this sort of interface of the future.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2017, 05:52:50 pm
content: Quote from: MarkS on March 19, 2017, 07:25:21 amI've not found that to be the case. I've been using PCLinux OS for the last six or so months and can't ever remember having to resort to using the console.Like many people these days, I've been brought up on GUIs. I started with Acron RISC OS at school, later Windows 3.1 (which was really terrible in comparison) and Windows to the present day. I've dabbled in Linux from time to time but have only recently started to use it as my main OS at home.I do have some experience with a text interface. I used to use DOS a lot, back when Windows used to take ages to start and was very slow and I found many DOS programs worked fine for me so just used DOS. I can appreciate how a good typist will find the command line user interface faster. I admit find the Windows console easier to use than Bash but that's only because I learnt it when I was very young and am more familiar with it.What is it that you've found you need to reach for the console for?

author: Karel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2017, 06:11:12 pm
content: Quote from: MarkS on March 19, 2017, 07:25:21 amTo say it black and white, if people dislike the console more than adware and spyware, that's their choice.edit:If the sole purpose of the console should be to keep away the masses, that alone is a good reason to keep the console.

author: krish2487
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2017, 07:10:29 pm
content: mmm..I d like to point out that even mac os has bsd on the backend for the kernel. and so does android. So infact if you disregard the platform for comparision (desktop, embedded) linux is the largest one out there (or a variant of it). Well, the linux kernel to be more precise. Linux was meant to be a non-restrictive use-it-as-you-see-fit idea. So you take the vanilla kernel and customize it to address a specific need or fancy. Which is why you see so many variants and flavours of linux instead of one version that a corporate is trying to shove down your throat or any other orifice (ahem Microsoft!!).You want a more user friendly flavour of linux, well develop it yourself. Okay, so you dont want to develop it yourself. Pay someone money to do it for you. You seem to be okay with paying money to MS.Secondly, it takes me much less time to do most of my tasks for navigating/managing/manipulating/controlling files and devices over the commandline than a fancy GUI. The only absolute areas where GUI actually takes the front seat is for gaming/DTP/Media Editing & Viewing. Not to mention the ubunty unity lens feature allows you to access apps much faster than the windows start button.I have been using Ubuntu for a bit over 10 years and Centos in a professional environment for over 6 years now. It was a fit and forget kind of setup. Ironically, the production servers running SAP B1 are Windows Server 2008 VMs running on Centos. :-D . I cannot recollect the number of times where I was forced to tinker with the ugly backend of Win Server but my base centos is rock solid!! Not an occassional failure. All this running on 7+ year old hardware. I wonder if windows will even allow you to do that....

author: Nusa
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2017, 07:56:00 pm
content: If you just called BSD Linix, you are incorrect. Unix was born 1969. BSD branched from Unix in 1978. Linux (a clone, not a branch) wasn't born until 1991. There are significant differences between Unix and Linux, but at the user level they are very similar.You are correct that Mac OS is based on BSD. So is IoS, which covers the most of the phones that aren't Android.Android is based on Linux, not BSD. You got that wrong.

author: rrinker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 20, 2017, 12:08:32 am
content: Of course, your machine runs better with a fresh clean install of Windows 7 than it did with an OEM FULL OF BLOATWARE install of Windows 10 out of the box....All things equal, 10 is faster than 7 or 8 on the same system probably 99% of the time. Back when OEMs shipped everything with 7 on it, it still came full of their add-on bloatware and was slow as molasses until you installed a clean copy with none of the unnecessary junk. HP was bad, but Lenovo was even worse.

author: krish2487
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 20, 2017, 11:51:25 am
content: You are right of course, I dont know why I even said that. I knew that and still it escaped my memory.While the differences between unix and linux are significant, it is not a stretch to say that linus torvalds modelled linux kernel after the BSD and consequently Unix kernel. Not withstanding the implementation specifics, it is a fair statement to say they are similar in behavior even if the differ in the innards. I only meant to point out to that. I stand corrected.Quote from: Nusa onTodayat 06:56:00 AM

author: lem_ix
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 20, 2017, 01:53:41 pm
content: The current batch of ubuntu/mint/etc are easy enough to use without the console ... I told my non-English speaking / non computer savvy mother how to install Ubuntu over the phone(click next x times )... She's been a happy user for a while now... The only possible issue with the installation is .... surprise surprise Secure Boot, and we know who to thank for that. Probably fixed by now tho, been a while since I've last built a pc.Hopefully EDA software companies will stop making windows crap :/

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 20, 2017, 02:29:32 pm
content: Quote from: jonovid on March 19, 2017, 06:27:58 amI'm impressed that you noticed and knew about the IBM situation and connection.Fortunately, I think we may be heading towards a solution.If other OS's, such as Linux, become more popular and windows less popular. Linux (or at least a non-windows OS) may get to the point ofCRITICAL-MASS. I.e. So many users, use it that someone creating a game or piece of software, will then need to write it for Linux as well as Windows.The increasing likelihood of cheap, Arm based desktop (and other types), may mean that it becomes popular for them to have Linux on, as it won't have the horrible Micro$oft tax on it then.Much like Mobile Phones and low end tablets, which tend to be Arm and Not-windows, e.g. Android, IOS, Chrome etc.But I agree some of them are Intel cpu based as well, especially Chrome books.I think companies such as Google or Apple. Were best placed to challenge Micro$oft. But sadly for various reasons, that has not happened.E.g. If Apple would sell the MAC OS, for ALL PC's.Or if Google could have produced a better desktop OS, also for PC's.But sadly Apple seem to want to sell (arguably) overpriced Apple Macs, and Google prefer to be "internet/cloud" based, e.g. Chrome book.Anyway, I hope this situation gets fixed, sooner or later.tl;drYou can probably tell that I would be crying for weeks on end, if Micro$oft was to be sorted out (e.g. legislation), taken over and FIXED or go bankrupt. Or if a decent OS, at a reasonable price was to appear as competition.

author: Faith
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 21, 2017, 05:16:03 am
content: Quote from: rrinker on March 20, 2017, 12:08:32 amOh, I wish that were the case. Unfortunately I do keep a USB thumb drive with the latest Windows 10 ISO on it; and when I compare fresh installations of Windows 7 and Windows 10 with each other, Windows 7 still wins in terms of responsiveness. Windows 10 does of course perform better in certain scenarios (USB3 transfer rates, for instance), but in terms of how snappy the OS feels, Windows 7 wins hands down. And this is a parameter which isn't easy to benchmark.Windows 10 seems to introduce a certain degree of input or output lag compared to Windows 7. The start menu doesn't pop up quite as fast, and neither do new Explorer windows. Maybe Windows 10 is too busy trying to figure what new ad or useless Windows Store App to shove down my throat? Who knows.Either way, Windows 10 has more pressing issues than performance.

author: @rt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2017, 09:09:14 am
content: Quote from: rdl on March 18, 2017, 02:10:58 pmWhy would it not run without updates if you didn’t change the hardware?I’ve run it on more than one PC for much longer than that without any internet connection to even be able to get updates.I think actually the oldest one is a couple of years.

author: Faith
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 21, 2017, 11:47:07 am
content: Quote from: @rt on March 21, 2017, 09:09:14 amI have a couple of friends who refuse to run Windows Update ever again on their Windows systems as a direct result of when Microsoft began injecting all sorts of Windows 10 nagware crap onto everyone's computers via Windows Update. Can't blame them either. That whole episode has left a rather sour taste in the mouths of many people, myself included.Those friends do use their Windows systems for specific purposes however (mostly gaming; and no web browsing) so they can get away with it.

author: rdl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2017, 02:53:49 pm
content: I was actually just being a bit facetious there.That's the machine I've been running Windows 7 on since 2012 without ever activating it. The last time I did a fresh install, I found Microsoft had made "Windows Update" such a chore to get working, that I just gave up.I'd actually like to try Windows 10, just out of curiosity, but before I do that I need to get my network set up so that it will run in complete isolation. I'm not sure they will consider an unactivated Windows 7 install to be a valid upgrade path though.Quote from: @rt on March 21, 2017, 09:09:14 am

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2017, 03:05:49 pm
content: Quote from: Karel on March 19, 2017, 07:27:14 amBut, if we are comparing to Windows, on the desktop, then the number of cell phones doesn't matter - Linux has about 1.6% of the desktops. Totally insignificant!I have yet to install Eclipse and GCC on my Android phone or tablets and those programs are about the only reasons I use Linux. Certainly not for the messed up Unity desktop that ships with Ubuntu. Unity has the distinction of making Win 8.0 look usable.I haven't checked lately but as I recall, getting user permissions to use the serial ports used to require the command line. And 'sudo', of course. Assuming you, as a user, are in the sudoer's group and you probably had to log in as root to add yourself to that group. I'm pretty sure different distros approach this differently. Just to add to the difficulty and confusion of setting up a new machine/user.The bash shell addition to Win 10 is pretty neat.

author: @rt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2017, 04:19:20 pm
content: Quote from: rdl on March 21, 2017, 02:53:49 pmAh...I’ve never had any Win 10 nags, so I guess both machines I have Windows 7 on are older installs than that.One has never seen a network (at least past any activation that might have been required), and the other hasn’t had a network card or wifi driver for at least a year.Both are used to run IDEs and little else, and they don’t need updating eitherInterestingly, the Mac I’m using now is the biggest slug of the lot.I can often type a message like this, and what is appearing on the display might have caught up to the “Both are used” part by now.

author: suicidaleggroll
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2017, 05:07:40 pm
content: Quote from: MarkS on March 19, 2017, 04:48:53 amAnd I have yet to get a Windows system going that didn't require console access at least 2-3 times in the first 24 hours. What's your point? GUIs only go so far, there are thousands of tasks on both systems that require you to get on the console, otherwise you can't do it. The difference being Linux openly admits it and has plenty of man pages to help you along your way, while Windows tries everything it can to hide and obfuscate it.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2017, 06:30:36 pm
content: I'm forced to suffer with Win10 at work and frankly it is simply unacceptable to me and will never be on my home PCs. I will run Windows 7 for as long as I possibly can, and then I will transition fully over to Linux. I've already made it my primary OS at work, and relegated my issued Win10 laptop to meeting notes duty. I can run Win7 in a VM and not worry about updates, if it gets infected just roll back to last known good state.

author: Karel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2017, 06:30:43 pm
content: Quote from: rstofer on March 21, 2017, 03:05:49 pmWho cares? 1 ~ 2 % of desktop marketshare is still a high absolute number of users.Also because Linux users are often engineers.I prefer to use an OS & desktop environment that is designed by engineers, for engineers.

author: technix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2017, 12:47:38 am
content: To solve this problem, donate. Donate to Linux Foundation. Donate to Free Software Foundation. Donate to the GNOME/KDE/LXDE/etc projects to make desktop Linux a more popular option.Or just buy a Mac as your next computer. Hackintosh if you are the brave ones. Oh by the way, both Linux and macOS are UNIX. Once you got used of the basics of UNIX, moving from one flavor of UNIX to another is fairly simple.Sent from my MacBook Pro running macOS Sierra, through a router running Ubuntu Linux. Enough UNIX for you eh?

author: Nusa
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2017, 01:06:07 am
content: MacOs is a Unix branch, but saying that Linix is Unix is simply wrong. However, they are both Posix systems, if you need a superset that they both belong to.

author: technix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2017, 03:46:31 am
content: Quote from: Nusa on March 22, 2017, 01:06:07 amAt least Dennis Ritchie considers macOS and Linux equally UNIX. You should know him being one of the original authors of UNIX in the first place...

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2017, 05:31:31 am
content: Quote from: Faith on March 21, 2017, 11:47:07 amYes they stooped really low with that one and completely destroyed the trust and faith I had in Windows Update. It became a service to push trojan horse nagware, at which point I set it to never automatically download any updates. I manually check each update before I allow it to install. The arrogance is stunning even for Microsoft.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2017, 06:18:02 am
content: Quote from: james_s on March 22, 2017, 05:31:31 amAnd now they've gone even lower!

author: Karel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2017, 07:38:27 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on March 22, 2017, 02:14:55 amThe driving force of the Linux kernel are engineers , mainly backed by big companies, who get paid for it.The driving force of Linux desktop environments are mainly programming professionals who volunteer in their spare time.The parts where hobbyists are involved in kernel development are neglitchable.Quotehttps://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2013/09/google-and-samsung-soar-into-list-of-top-10-linux-contributors/https://www.linux.com/blog/top-10-developers-and-companies-contributing-linux-kernel-2015-2016

author: Karel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2017, 12:21:31 pm
content: Quote from: blueskull on March 22, 2017, 10:08:48 amI was talking about the usability for engineers & professionals.For work, we order computers from Fujitsu or Dell which are compatibel with Linux.No problems here with alsa or soundcards.

author: raspberrypi
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2017, 02:29:56 pm
content: More importantly why do the have such weird names like kaby lake? Sounds like a horse or, well a lake , or a town. Lets call the next processor dream mountain!

author: rrinker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2017, 02:51:31 pm
content: They are intended as internal code names, however the current fashion seems to be not hide that stuff any more, so every PC enthusiast site publishes the code name. They aren't random names - they are actually places in US national parks. Prior to Kaby lake was Skylake - Sky Lake is in Yosemite. Cannon Lake (next one after Kaby Lake) is in Minnesota.No different than Google using the name of deserts for each Android version - Ice Cream, Cupcake, etc.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2017, 07:19:40 pm
content: How did this end up being a Windows versus Linux thread? It always seems silly to me to vehemently adore one and oppose the other. Both camps produce pieces of software that have proven their use in the real world. They both have qualities and flaws and weaknesses.I have to admit that Windows 10 is a great OS of you just want to get work done. It is possibly the best OS Microsoft ever made from a technical point of view. In business environments their traditional and new services are unparalleled, even though competitors are catching up in some areas. Getting and keeping things going and centrally managing them is easier than ever, with much less of the odd quirks that used to go with that.That being said, I hate thesoftware as a servicedirection Microsoft is going, where users are ever more obligated to use that magical cloud, relinquishing control over their own computer at every turn. In a world where privacy and control over your own data becomes more of an issue every day, it is the last thing we need.Quote from: H.O on March 18, 2017, 06:38:22 pmYou could consider buying Skylake hardware. The difference is small, but you will have support for Windows 7 and 8. You might even get a good deal.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2017, 08:08:55 pm
content: I don't see what anyone sees in Win10 that makes them say it's "the best Windows ever" other than paid evangelists from MS. I don't dislike Windows, in fact other than a few minor issues I think Windows 7 is fantastic, it's the pinnacle of Microsoft OS development. Rock solid stable, reasonable compatibility, good performance, beautiful and highly customizable UI, it does pretty much everything right. XP was excellent for its time, at least once you disable the ludicrous Fisher Price default color scheme. Win2k was rock solid, Win98 was reasonably good for the time and Win95 defined the direction of Windows for the next 15 years.Windows 10 on the other hand feels half baked, it has that same design by committee, full of inconsistencies crufty feel as Linux distros from 10+ years ago. It feels more like a platform to push Microsoft "apps" and services than an operating system existing as the foundation on which I'm to run the software of my choosing. The forced updates means that once enough users are locked in MS can make whatever changes they please and we will have little we can do besides bend over and take it or switch to another platform entirely. In the past if I didn't like a new version of Windows I could choose to remain on an old one. I could upgrade on *my* schedule, and could trust that if I leave my PC up for a week with a bunch of stuff I'm working on open, it will stay that way and not decide to reboot whenever it feels like it to install some new changes I didn't ask for. The forced update thing is something I've always hated about smartphones and now it's coming to PCs which are a tool I rely on daily to do work. This is unacceptable to me.So what does Win10 offer over previous versions? Sure, it boots a tad faster but compared to a fresh install of Win7 the difference is pretty negligible, and who cares? I boot my PC once in a day at most generally, often once and then run for several weeks. It has the latest security updates, but so does Win7 for a few more years. That's about all I've found, and certainly not enough to make it worth staring at that fugly UI that looks like a preliminary wireframe, or the baked in services and promotions that I do not care about in the least, or that joke of a browser they keep nagging me to try, or the gimmicky Cortana that does little more than open a Bing search for something that's not what I wanted, or the search that by default searches the internet when all I want to look for are files on my local machine, or the ridiculous universal apps when there are far better 3rd party offerings for what any of them do.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2017, 08:13:06 pm
content: Quote from: MarkS on March 19, 2017, 07:25:21 amBy the way, just to add some fuel to the fire: I just created 28 directories and then sorted over 300 files into those directories according to their filename, in a trivial <100 character one-liner. Please show me how to do this faster in Explorer.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2017, 09:15:27 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on March 22, 2017, 08:08:55 pmAccusing people of being paid evangelists when they have an opinion different than your own on the matter is not really conducive to an open discussion.There are a number of reasons to say this. Windows 7 was a great OS, but under the hood, it shows its age. One of the more important areas is security. IT security is rapidly evolving and the architecture is not up to snuff in regards to modern standards. It will still do, but there is a definite difference there. Another thing that people tend to overlook is that the often clunky feeling app store also introduces a very granular control over what apps can and cannot do with your computer. This difference between this new model, and the traditional one where applications could run amok, really shows the different attitudes that stem from different centuries.Other areas have also been improved and touched up. Faster booting, easier refreshing, built in ISO support - you name it. There are a lot of features that improve ease of use. Windows 8 shares a number of these improvements, but as we all know, it was loathed for its interface. People hated the tile interface. Running desktop applications and store apps together the way they did was a bit odd at best. Most users experience the more traditional Windows 10 GUI as a more pleasant one.Looking at it from the viewpoint of a system administrator, the new Windows 10 update model is both sour and sweet. Administrators have much less control over their systems, but Microsoft finally attempts to fix the chaos that is a thousands of different updates and consequent configurations. Things like updates not being found or installed, a common woe, should be something of the past. Even though it might not turn out to be the solution, the problem certainly needed addressing.As I said in my previous post, I personally dislike the new direction Microsoft is taking Windows. Personally, and I realise this is a controversial opinion that will get me keelhauled in some places, I feel Windows 8.1 is the best Microsoft OS. Quite possibly the best OS of any. It combines the pleasantness of Windows 7 with the modern feel and technology of Windows 10, without the obligatory ads, lack of control and suspicious telemetry. Unfortunately, it is probably the most hated Windows OS after Vista, due to daring to change how things look.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2017, 09:19:45 pm
content: Sorry I didn't mean to imply that I was accusing you personally of being a paid evangelist. What I meant was I can understand why paid evangelists would go around saying that it's the best ever, but I have a much harder time understanding why someone else would say that.I do agree that Win8 has a very nice framework, it's definitely less buggy than Win10 in my experience, I think the Win8 framework with the Win7 UI would be a nice setup. Win10 is just so buggy, not so much major showstoppers that I can put a finger on, but *so* many little niggles, quirks and flaws. Death by a thousand pinpricks.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 24, 2017, 03:22:35 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on March 24, 2017, 12:17:25 amPlease do everyone a favour and keep your magic entirely in userspace where it can't do any any harm. Or just go do it in hardware.I agree, it's entirely stupid to build an open source kernel and then let people run closed-source blobs of unknown garbage inside it. Just doesn't make sense.

author: Karel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 24, 2017, 09:10:29 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on March 24, 2017, 12:17:25 amWell, I was talking about the usability for engineers & professionals.Quote from: blueskull on March 24, 2017, 12:17:25 amHere's an example of an OpenSuse Linux compatibel pc for +/-$400,=:http://docs.ts.fujitsu.com/dl.aspx?id=3efde622-df2f-469e-a720-15bfadfa5153(Fujitsu Siemens P420)Quote from: blueskull on March 24, 2017, 12:17:25 amI didn't. You started to rant about the GPL. But now you are asking, those problems can be solved by releasing your software under a GPL compatibel license.O wait, you only want to take but you don't want to give back... Well, in that case, use BSD, Mac or windows and stay away from Linux.To clarify things, the GPL is not there to help programmers or companies that want to create closed source software.The GPL is there to protect the end-user. If you don't like that, than stay away from GPL licensed software.

author: technix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 24, 2017, 10:33:16 am
content: In fact when I built my computers I built it with VMware ESXi, Ubuntu Linux or even Hackintosh in mind. A workstation with 2-node NUMA (2x Xeon E5-2680,) 128GB ECC RAM and hardware RAID is definitely not Windows' forté. In fact Windows throws tantrums whenever RAID is involved. And for the daily driver workstation preferring a Gigabyte motherboard with dual BIOS over my usual Asus is intended to maximize macOS support and allowing riskier modifications. Despite the free genuine Windows 10 license Microsoft kindly offered to the Chinese users that upgraded in that free period, once I got my GTX 980 Ti graphics card (the best card supported under macOS with nVidia's trustworthy Web Driver) it is back to Hackintosh. And on my home server Windows won't even install properly as it have no UEFI but a multi-terabyte RAID array. Once again, RAID and Windows being mutually exclusive.Windows have various shortcomings when coming to high-end systems:* It absolutely demands UEFI if you want to boot off a disk (or RAID array) larger than 2TB. Linux, ESXi and Hackintosh can all boot with a simple trampoline despite a lack of UEFI in BIOS.* There is no way doing any purely software-based SSD caching without a hardware license key. On my Z97 board the Intel RST is deemed broken and I cannot use the SSD caching feature at all. Meanwhile with Linux (through bcache) and Hackintosh (through Fusion Drive) I can use a SSD cache to strike a balance between speed and capacity.* Programming: I can share code between Linux and macOS and it is usually one compile away. Windows always required significant porting efforts despite Cygwin and MSYS.* EE: EAGLE and MPLAB works everywhere for me. It is Eclipse + GCC ARM Embedded that is causing trouble: won't work properly under Ubuntu 16.10, have problems under Windows, fantastic under macOS. Speaking of which, there are hidden modes available in the LLVM toolchain shipped with Xcode that can allow it being used to emit code for Cortex-M. Apple did release the toolchain for their LPC1800-based motion coprocessors. Atmel Studio and Keil would have to stay inside a hypervisor. (And hey I have ESXi running around here.)Multimedia: macOS is the undefeated king of multimedia apps. In fact the lack of native Blu-ray support made it the king. VLC plays everything everywhere, and does not spy me. Windows have mandatory spyware running whenever you insert a Blu-ray Disc, even though I am not a US citizen, the machine is not located in the US and I should not be subjected to the DMCA in this case. The multimedia editing tools on Linux are primitive, but this is exactly its strength, as those tools can be combined using a Makefile, called with the -j flag to force extra parallelism, and exercise all cores on my CPU and GPU at the utterly maximum.

author: bingo600
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 25, 2017, 07:08:21 pm
content: Quote from: rstofer on March 21, 2017, 03:05:49 pmYou shouly try :linux mint 17.3 mate, not the cinnamon.That's the best desktop/laptop edition i have used ever. It uses Ubuntu "behind the curtains" , but not the dreadfull Unity.Afaik even Ubuntu have now made amateedition ,after linux mint became the most popular desktop/laptop linux.Afaik due to Ubuntu forcing Unity on people , and their secret $ware agreement, where they delivered your searches to Amazon. to get $$ from them.I used ubuntu from 2007..12 , but skipped it after 10.4. And after installing mint i have never looked back.Don't install the mint 18 yet , it's simply not as stable as 17.3/BingoWho started with Ygdrasil in 96' then Slackware , then Redhat , then Centos , then Ubuntu andfinallylanded onLinux Mint, for desktops.And Debian for servers.I do have a single dualboot - M$ machineAs i need to update my Garmin gps'es.I boot it 2..3 times a year.

author: Yansi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 25, 2017, 07:20:02 pm
content: When there will be enough useful engineering software packages for linux, I might switch to it. Until then, linux remains only a toy for those, who have too much free time to fix stuff until broken even more.I might consider linux when at least Altium and Keil MDK ARM and many similar tools will support it.Now staying on Windows 7, far away from anything like Windows 10 or Linux.

author: bingo600
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 26, 2017, 07:52:13 am
content: Quote from: Yansi on March 25, 2017, 07:20:02 pmIf you can affordreal licensedversions of these packages , i'm sure you could afford an extra pc for running your "Toy OS" if needed.But i'd have to agree with you here , there are products where the supplier have chosen not make their packages for linux.Not that linux is a Toy OS.In fact i'd expect that most standard (non gaming) users would be able to make the switch wo. loosing much (if any) functionality.And the days where you'd absolutely need the "CLI/shell" on linux is over./Bingo

author: John Coloccia
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 26, 2017, 09:16:13 am
content: Linux Mint is finally there. I can put this on anyone's computer who's familiar with OSX or Windows, and I'll be confident that it wont give them any trouble. I'm slowly converting ALL of my computers over to Mint. The Windows 10 kernel is actually quite good, but all of the policies make it practically unusable for real work. It took me several hours in Windows 10 Pro to figure out how to keep it from automatically rebooting if it happened to get an update when I was away from my computer, and it required making obscure changes in some Group Policy BS that truthfully, I really just don't understand. I'm not a Windows admin and don't want to be.Linux Mint is like what OSX used to be...it just works, and is non intrusive. It's about a bazillion times more efficient too. My laptop's fans used to scream just doing a little web browsing. They're completely silent now.I haven't decided what to do with my Windows programs yet. Some of them run in WINE perfectly (like DipTrace). A couple really just need to run in Windows. I'm going to experiment with running it in a VM and see where I get, but if I have to dual boot I will.But yeah, buh bye Windows. It's been nice, and I really thought some versions like 2000 and 7 were really quite good and very well thought out, but enough is enough. Life is too short to have a whiny OS that needs constant attention and attending too, like an annoying puppy dog. WTF? I have a real life to live, and f&&king around with this stupid computer constantly is not part of the plan.

author: John Coloccia
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 26, 2017, 09:47:27 am
content: Incidentally, I know that there are a lot of people that love Windows 10, and don't even notice all of the OS interaction it requires. Most of them are much younger than I am, and frankly I feel a little bad for them. I'm in my early 40's and I remember what it's like to have an OS that just does OS kinds of things and leaves me the hell alone. I remember what it's like before running an OS gave you the "Windows Experience" and other nonsense. I don't want to experience anything. I just want to get my work done and get on with my life. The idea of an OS being front and center in my daily workflow is just absolutely ludicrous to someone like me.And I'm not one of these guys that's been banging the Linux/GNU drum for 20 years. My feeling on it is that it's a disorganized mess with a lot of projects that simply don't have a clue what they're doing (Unity, Inkscape and KiCAD come to mind as perfect examples of completely unfocused, random garbage). That said, a growing handful of projects, like Mint, have finally gotten over the hump and become very usable, and Windows has become such a pile of crap that it's just not worth it anymore. This isn't really how I had anticipated things going, but 'tis what it is.I'm going to predict that the time is right for some investor to start a new PC company, and the only OS offered will be Linux. It will be very low cost and he will sweep in and completely change the dynamic. He'll do it by going to every grammar school, high school and University in the country and offering essentially at-cost computers to the staff, and killer deals for the students. One generation of this and you can kiss Microsoft's dominance goodbye. It's not like it's a big secret that Microsoft is, and has been, terrified of this kind of scenario, and it's in part what drives their hyper-aggressive marketing and business tactics.

author: technix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 26, 2017, 12:55:23 pm
content: Quote from: John Coloccia on March 26, 2017, 09:47:27 amRaspberry Pi. By getting rid of the Windows expectancy they built such a cheap computer that you can buy for the cost of a dinner, and push it into so many classrooms and workbenches. The latest Raspberry Pi 3 can be used comfortably for some simple daily computation tasks.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 26, 2017, 01:12:30 pm
content: Quote from: technix on March 26, 2017, 12:55:23 pmI don't see any causation between rpi price and windows. Not that cheap, considering hardware on the PCB. And you still need a memory card, PSU, case (for some protection), monitor, keyboard, mouse. And you can buy a cheap tablet with Atom CPU running windows for less than that in total.

author: bitwelder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 26, 2017, 01:28:31 pm
content: Quote from: John Coloccia on March 26, 2017, 09:16:13 amIf you have only a couple of applications that require Windows, I doubt that you will need to keep a dual boot configuration (i.e. keep the possibility to run Windows 'on the metal').It is instead quite convenient to have Windows in a VM. With the 'snapshot' capabilities you can easily mark some points in time where you have a stable configuration, and quickly rollback to one of them if needed.And with Windows 'boxed' in a VM, it's also easier to keep control of where it's trying to connect to

author: John Coloccia
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 26, 2017, 03:14:18 pm
content: Quote from: bitwelder on March 26, 2017, 01:28:31 pmThe only issues with this are:1) I haven't tried it yet, but I've heard that Windows 10 run likes a dog in VMs for some reason.2) In particular, the one program I have that must run in Windows is a CAD package. I'll have to see how that runs. My models tend to be simple, relatively anyhow, so it may be acceptable and I don't use it very much anymore, but it does need to be good enough and I don't know that I'll get there.I also do some software development work in Windows, but nothing that wouldn't be OK in a VM.Since I need to get to it so infrequently and I want the performance, dual boot is almost ideal other than Windows is so frickin' needy that I know if I don't boot into Windows for a month or two, it'll spend hours with all it's damn updates and other garbage. Have I mentioned just how much I've come to hate Windows 10, and this is coming from someone who never got on the Microsoft-is-evil bandwagon? Lord, what a piece of crap.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 26, 2017, 03:59:37 pm
content: Quote from: John Coloccia on March 26, 2017, 09:47:27 amInvestors usually have money and the way they keep their money is to not make mistakes. There is a problem with Linux; it's open source! Pouring money into it would be a mistake!The problem is that Linux wants to push that open source mentality down to the application layer and NOBODY writes commercial software for Linux. They MIGHT port a Windows application, after it is up and selling, but they won't develop one from scratch. The 'open source' is half of the problem and the users wanting something for nothing is the other half. If companies can't make money writing software, they won't write it!On the desktop, Linux is going nowhere. After 20+ years it still accounts for less than 2% of desktops and it won't be improving any time soon.Linux, at the command line, brings a Unix time-share flavor and I rather like doing software development from the command line. I still use gedit for the editor but I am perfectly comfortable using Makefiles.Yes, Unity is a piece of crap. The sheer arrogance of putting the system buttons on the wrong side is inexcusable! I haven't tried Mint but I have heard good things about it. Next time I set up a Linux box I'll give it a shot. And, yes, I realize that I can search the Internet and find the solution to the buttons problem. But I shouldn't have to!

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 26, 2017, 04:03:12 pm
content: Quote from: John Coloccia on March 26, 2017, 09:47:27 amMy experience is, frankly, that a lot of people in education have a hard time with computers as it is. Change things in a significant way, and things start going sour. Apple had aggressively pushed iPads into school and that seemed to work for a while, but slowly and surely you see them being ditched again at pretty much the same speed.Teachers are not IT savvy, and that is probably being friendly.

author: gildasd
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 26, 2017, 04:22:39 pm
content: Quote from: John Coloccia on March 26, 2017, 09:16:13 amDarn, had not thought of that...How the hell am I supposed to do 24 or 36 hour CFD runs if the system reboots when the freak it wants?And I'm like you, I don't want to go beyond variables to get stuff working.This sucks.Are there rumours of a Win10.2 that does away with the worst of the crowd spying and automatic bull crap?

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 26, 2017, 05:09:06 pm
content: Quote from: blueskull on March 22, 2017, 02:14:55 amStill waiting for Windows to get the simple but so useful always on top button, a feature Linux had for like 2 decades...

author: John Coloccia
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 26, 2017, 06:08:54 pm
content: Quote from: rstofer on March 26, 2017, 03:59:37 pmActually, people have been writing commercial software for Linux for a LONG time, and it's growing, not shrinking. The only thing really missing that most people might use everyday is Microsoft Office. Of course, there is a lot of specialty software that simply doesn't exist in Linux. Some CAD suites, PCB suites, Adobe's software, and things like that.But consider that a huge amount of internet infrastructure is built on Linux and Android is also built on Linux.The only thing Linux is really missing is a decent desktop. Cinnamon is more than decent. There's really very little reason to ever go a shell if you don't want to, though there are still some rough edges and it kind of annoys me that instead of polishing them, they keep concentrating on adding crap. For example, I needed to edit my rc.local file to change my touchpad hysteresis settings in order to make it usable. That's COMPLETELY inexcusable, and if anything it's brain damaged thinking like this, and brain damaged thinking going on at places like Canonical, that is keeping people away.Which is why the smart investor will NOT use some random distribution for his hardware. They will take the Apple approach and will assemble a distribution which is tailored to their hardware, and it will truly just work and work well. Not just well but far better than Windows, and at least as well as OSX.Millions of people use Linux everyday and have no clue it's Linux. The only problem with getting Linux on desktops is guys like GNU, which by and large encourages an unfocused, random, dumpster-like approach to software, and guys like Canonical who I can only guess are being bribed by Microsoft and Apple. Not only can Linux take over the desktop market (and I do believe that it can, and will, in my lifetime), but with the right front end it can be so good that it can actually be used to sell the hardware, just as OSX and Android sell the hardware.Anyway, follow the games. IMHO, it's always been gaming that has held back both Apple and Linux. I see signs already that gaming can, and will, come to Linux in a significant way, and that'll be that.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 26, 2017, 08:11:45 pm
content: Quote from: John Coloccia on March 26, 2017, 06:08:54 pm

author: John Coloccia
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 26, 2017, 11:26:46 pm
content: Quote from: rstofer on March 26, 2017, 08:11:45 pm

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 27, 2017, 12:04:21 am
content: Quote from: wilfred on March 26, 2017, 11:34:33 pmMaybe there is at least a little/some truth to the rumor...It would seem that Microsoft have officially announced stuff about some kind of version updates, in a news conference a week or so agohttp://www.mirror.co.uk/tech/windows-10-creators-update-arrives-10039586https://www.theregister.co.uk/2017/02/22/microsoft_postcreators_update_plans/Quote

author: rdl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 27, 2017, 01:01:15 am
content: QuoteSame old Microsoft. Have they ever tried to compete with anyone and actually done better? Seems like they usually just end up buying the rivals.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 27, 2017, 01:41:39 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on March 26, 2017, 07:46:47 pmIs there one you can recommend? Nview has it but that requires a Nvidia GPU to work.

author: BradC
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 27, 2017, 01:48:02 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on March 26, 2017, 07:46:47 pmMostly they let those companies develop the technology and work most of the bugs out, then clone their tech in the OS to cut off their revenue stream and drive them into the ground, but maybe they do it your way too. I've just seen little evidence of it over the years.

author: Paul Moir
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 27, 2017, 06:50:17 am
content: Quote from: BradC on March 27, 2017, 01:48:02 amWhile the goodness of their heart's I'm sure is a factor, I think one of the big reasons they can't do things like this is because it making something that's free and better than this little company produces smacks of monopolistic behaviour. While the heat is off now, I bet the ghost of Stac Electronics still haunts the halls of the Redmond campus. Live by the sword and all that.

author: Faith
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 12, 2017, 05:18:36 am
content: Well, Microsoft patches are in today. And it is confirmed; my notebook with a Kaby Lake CPU (i7-7700HK) and Windows 7 installed now receives an "Unsupported Hardware" error and Windows Update no longer runs.My desktop with a Kaby Lake PCH (Z270) and a Skylake CPU (i7-6700K) continues to work fine, however. It's also running Windows 7.For those who are curious; the actual April 2017 security update installed fine.Only after its installation was Windows Update bricked.This does mean however that we have a month to find a workaround against this frankly idiotic limitation.

author: Jeroen3
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 12, 2017, 05:40:26 am
content: I've heard this block isn't all intentional. It's the effect of removing legacy x86 32 bit support from the chip.To keep Windows 7 running on that would require extra work.

author: Faith
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 12, 2017, 05:45:03 am
content: Eh? Where did you read that from? Doesn't make a whole lot of sense either; I'm running Windows 7 x64, other x86 32-bit binaries continue to run perfectly fine, and the Windows Update service is x64.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 12, 2017, 06:05:35 am
content: Quote from: Jeroen3 on April 12, 2017, 05:40:26 amWin 7 / 8 runs fine on Ryzen and kaby lake, which legacy x86 support? There are win 7 drivers. It only intentionally refuses to install updates. They might claim such config not officially supported, no support for such systems on our side, but intentionally bricking the updates is ridiculous.

author: Jeroen3
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 12, 2017, 06:07:35 am
content: An IT manager in a big company told me. Intel started removing instructions sets to conserve energy and space.He said that it was already impossible to install 32 bit Windows on those machines.However, I could not find any evidence backing his claim yet. But it does not seem unreasonable to me.Keeping this legacy stuff up is the only reason why you're still putting a 100 Watt processor in a pc.

author: Faith
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 12, 2017, 07:25:14 am
content: Quote from: Jeroen3 on April 12, 2017, 06:07:35 amI'd need a more reliable source for that. It would be an extremely arrogant approach as the vast majority of applications out there are still x86 32-bit.For applications especially where large memory sets are not required being compiled as x86 32-bit means a smaller binary and lower memory footprint than an x86-64 equivalent compile.Sure, there are other reasons to want to use x86-64, but it's going to be at least a decade until mainstream x86 32-bit is phased out.Even Windows 10 still comes in an x86 32-bit edition.Make no mistake; this is nothing but a poorly executed stunt by Microsoft in attempt to move more users over to Windows 10.

author: Jeroen3
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 12, 2017, 11:06:30 am
content: Quote from: Faith on April 12, 2017, 07:25:14 amYes, me too. It would create quite a fuss if it were true. And I've not yet seen much fuss.

author: Nusa
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 12, 2017, 12:24:38 pm
content: Quote from: Faith on April 12, 2017, 05:18:36 amCan you simply uninstall that security update?

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 12, 2017, 01:18:45 pm
content: Quote from: Jeroen3 on April 12, 2017, 05:40:26 amComplete bullshit.Most Windows software is still 32-bit, and these CPUs still boot looking like an 8086.

author: John Coloccia
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 14, 2017, 03:05:28 am
content: Quote from: Monkeh on April 12, 2017, 01:18:45 pmMicrosoft actually RECOMMENDS that you install the 32 bit version of Office 365 so that plugins and things like that actually work. I have 64 bit installed at home, but I installed 32 bit at work just so I don't have to deal with whatever vague incompatibilities they're warning about.

author: Faith
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 14, 2017, 03:19:13 am
content: Quote from: John Coloccia on April 14, 2017, 03:05:28 amI actually consider that a security feature as there are too many poorly-maintained plugins out there riddled with bugs and plagued with security vulnerabilities.

author: rrinker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 14, 2017, 02:17:31 pm
content: I've got 64-bit Office installed everywhere. Have yet to run into a compatibility problem. Even when maintaining an old Access application for a client, it's like one step to fix the security if I make changes on my 64-bit version.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 14, 2017, 03:44:56 pm
content: Quote from: rrinker on April 14, 2017, 02:17:31 pmIt is much better than it used to be, though third party plug-ins can still be weird and wonderful.

author: rrinker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 14, 2017, 08:10:12 pm
content: I only went 64 bit with Office 2013. Now I am using 2016. Most any plugin we se here is for Outlook, for meetings, IM, and our ticketing system, and they all play fine with 64 bit Outlook. 64 bit before Windows 7 was flakey on the OS level, let alone the apps, but I've been running 64 bit Windows since 7.Outside of some third party stencils for Visio, the only other plug in of any sort I have is a custom script I wrote for Word to update the document variables in out standard documentation templates. ANd that because I am lazy - the default in Word updates either the body or the headers and footers, not both in one operation. So I created a simple script to update the entire document and stuffed it on the menu with an icon.

author: voltsandjolts
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 19, 2017, 07:24:51 pm
content: Potential workaround for running Win7 on Kaby Lake / Ryzen systems:http://news.softpedia.com/news/hack-allows-windows-7-to-run-on-new-processors-despite-microsoft-restriction-514966.shtmlQuote

author: hans
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 19, 2017, 08:26:31 pm
content: Quote from: Jeroen3 on April 12, 2017, 06:07:35 amI've a harder time believing that. Are you sure it is instruction sets? Because all programs that run on the system must be ISA compatible as well.. And there are a lot of 32-bit applications.Just start with virtual machines. If they all need to be patched I don't think anyone in the server world with their right mind would buy such a chip.Also Intel keeps pushing larger GPU's on their mainstream CPU's these days, rather than giving us more cores like AMD is doing right now. If there is any area to be saved, then right there..I'm also not sure how much can be saved. The datapath of a CPU probably wont shrink (because 64-bit is wider than 32-bit..). So perhaps the controller could be simplified if some old instruction sets were scrapped.. but I think it's a drop in the ocean considering the complexity of the new vector instructions sets and the old legacy instruction sets.Speaking of legacy stuff; these guys thought that a PS4 gameconsole should be capable of booting linux in no-time, because PS4 is also x86 based. Wrong. All legacy "x86 PC" stuff (@11:45) was scrapped and were all reimplemented in some kind of proprietary Sony/AMD collaboration chip.Real nice talk though:https://media.ccc.de/v/33c3-7946-console_hacking_2016Perhaps its about time some of this crap was scrapped.. Just like we got UEFI pretty well integrated right now as well.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 19, 2017, 08:39:45 pm
content: Quote from: hans on April 19, 2017, 08:26:31 pmWatched that video a while ago. x86 stuff wasn't really dropped,PCstuff was. And it was re-implemented not by AMD. It uses Marvell SoC instead of south bridge.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 19, 2017, 09:02:20 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on April 19, 2017, 08:39:45 pmPlus they did some really damn strange things. But that's what happens when you let Sony loose with hardware. Same with software, really.. just Sony. 'nuff said.