Is the Rigol DS1054Z still the best buy for a cheap entry level oscilloscope? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / beginners

author: wa7son
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: May 11, 2018, 07:08:01 am
content: Dave did a nice review of the Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope back in January 2015:At the time this was THE starter scope to buy, but I imagine a lot of stuff have happened since. Is this still the recommended scope if you're on a budget?

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 11, 2018, 07:45:42 am
content: Welcome to the forum.Everyone's on a budget but what you get for that budget can be another matter plus the experience with a scope will further dictate requirements.Since 2015 there's been quite a few entry level DSO's released including 2 new Siglents that are at least worthy of some study.....presuming you know what you want and know how to properly line one against another.Models I refer to are SDS1202X-E and the newer 4ch variants SDS1104X-E and 1204X-E.There's a comparison between them all in the first post here:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/

author: JS
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 11, 2018, 07:50:01 am
content: For not much more you can have the SDS1104X-E from Siglent, which is much modern stuff (lunched 6 month ago or so)With the Signlent you can add later a function generator (and make bode plots with it), a logic analyzer and/or wifi. Also has all the good stuff as standard, like serial decoding, 100MHz BW. Very fast capture rate (up to 400Wfms/S, etc.It has some downsides, as it's recently lunched the firmware could be better, and there are still bugs to be found, the Rigol is quite polished by now.https://www.siglent.eu/sds1104x-e.htmlI'm looking to get one of those, most likely the siglent, and if I can with the waveform generator from the start as I don't have one. The problem here (in Argentina) are shipping costs about U$200 and custom taxes (50% over price+shipping) so with the waveform generator is about U$1500 once I got it to my hands.I wouldn't go or the SDS1202X-E since you loose a lot of the good stuff, over the 2 chanels (all the optionals for instance). The SDS1202X-E is more expensive as it has 200MHz BW but keeps the sampling rate the same, so doesn't much a ton of sense unless you really need to measure things over 100MHzJS

author: wa7son
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: May 11, 2018, 08:37:55 am
content: Thanks a lot - seems like Siglent is everybody's new favoriteI'm not sure if I need the 200Mhz of the SDS1202X-E/SDS1204X-E versions or if I even need 4 channels. I'm not sure if I really need a function generator either, unless it's required to tune the probes as I've seen people do using a square wave? I've heard people talk about bode plots as well, but I'm not sure what that is.Since you asked, I can just share a little of what my needs are. I've never used an oscilloscope before, but I've been working with RF digital signal processing on a hobby basis with theHackRFand have done afewtalkson the topic.During my work with DSP, I've often needed to inspect digital signals and recently I've been trying to reverse engineer an RS485 signal which got me thinking that it would be really nice to own an oscilloscope. I was a backer of the OpenScope MZ project on Kickstarter, buthaven't gotten it to work on my Mac yet, and I saw Daves review of it as well which let me to start dreaming on owning something a bit better. My budget is probably around where the Rigol is at $350 USD, but if there's something for $500 USD that's "just that much better" then it might be worth for me spending the extra bucks.- The Rigol DS1054Z is $349 on Amazon.com- The Siglent SDS1104X-E is $499 on Amazon.com- The Siglent SDS1202X-E is $379 on Amazon.comWhat's a use-case where you'd normally need more than 2 channels on a scope?

author: cs.dk
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 11, 2018, 08:46:56 am
content: Quote from: wa7son on May 11, 2018, 08:37:55 amThe cal-signal is build in, in all scopes afaik. Never seen one without it.I've got the Rigol, and i'm quite happy with it. It is really up to your personal needs, spending 150$ more, or just go with the Rigol.Btw. I've got mine from Batronix

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 11, 2018, 08:54:43 am
content: Simple Bode plot example I did a few weeks back:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/msg1435854/#msg1435854If you get into more advanced protocol decoding than RS485 you'd be better with 4 channels.Here on EEVblog there's a good # of members with each of the models you're considering and some with both. There's also a heap of info in the thread I've linked and also on both SDS1104X-E and SDS1202X-E that Dave's also done a vids on.With Siglents you don't have to hack to get excellent functionality from but as yet no one's found cracks for the options in the 4ch X-E's but there are some 'work arounds' for the WiFi and AWG options that allow Bode plots with other than Siglent standalone AWG's or the need to get the SAG1021 USB module.The 1202X-E is proving very popular and the 4ch X-E's are 'next level' in terms of capabilities.Good luck with your decision.

author: Distelzombie
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 11, 2018, 09:08:04 am
content: I was wondering why didn't get a notification because I wrote in this thread a few weeks ago. Then I realized it just has the same name. xDNo problem, the other thread was years old anyway - except the end of it.Im also going to buy me a SDS1104X-E . I just have to wait... wait... and save.

author: Electro Detective
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 11, 2018, 10:49:15 am
content: The Siglent-E is $499 = NO BRAINER!It's a later/latest? model, and should hold its value a lot better if you decide to sell4 channels are good to have, but if you don't know what to do with the extra ch 3 and 4, put a piece of duct tape over them, works for meWhatever you buy, make sure it has the latest firmware update, to minimize on'Help, I think my new DSO is not a happy camper' posts

author: JS
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 16, 2018, 03:51:07 am
content: Quote from: wa7son on May 11, 2018, 08:37:55 amI ended up buying the Rigol today, the other would cost twice as much for me, too much shipping and after weeks of search only an ebay seller would deliver to Argentina, had it at $600 + $200 shipping (not counting the options). It was almost twice as much, not just $150, more like $400.Rigol was $350+$75 shipping. I still want a signal generator but I can live with very little, I could build something for next to nothing that's good enough for what I need or expend some time and do something decent with the parts I got in the bin.Too bad to hear about the openscope, those things are nice to have, even when it's not a good scope for you anymore could be a nice evelopment board to build a fast solution for something, you might get it to work at some point. I was looking for the red pitaya some time ago, similar thing I guess, higher specs and price. I have a STM32F3 discovery with 12b 5MSa/s ADCs and 12b DAC (good for over 250KSa/s) so I might play around with it at some point. I got it cheap used so I bought it to investigate.Quote from: Electro Detective on May 11, 2018, 10:49:15 amDon't tape 3 and 4, tape 2 and 4 and you get twice as much sampling rate!4ch is a good thing, 2 for monitoring the serial bus and 2 for looking what the circuit is doing in sync.JS

author: larsdenmark
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 16, 2018, 08:55:47 am
content: If you haven't ever tried a scope before you may want to start with an analog scope. I have one you can get for free if you are willing to buy your own probes (I live in Copenhagen).Digital scopes can of course do much more, but havinganyscope can make the world of a difference from not being able to see any signal values at all. Once you have a little experience with an analog scope you may be able to decide what features and channels you really need.

author: Adrian_Arg.
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 16, 2018, 12:43:08 pm
content: JS, yo compre un RIGOL EL 15/02/2018 en tequipment EEUU, 430 dolares con envio mas 200 dolares de impuestos en Argentina, el hago cosas en arduino y pequeños proyectos de electronica, me alcanza y sobra. Tequipment con el tema de soporte post venta MALO, me dijeron que me comunique con RIGOL, y los de rigol despues de 1 mes de enviar mail, se pusieron en contacto conmigo, creo que me solucionaron el problema veremos con el tiempo si es asi, el equipo una maravilla, me gustaba el siglent pero eran 150 dolares mas y sumale 75 de impuestos con eso me compro un generador de funciones fy6600, y casi una estacion china de soldado, lo mio es hobby. que disfrutes tu compra.in englishJS, I buy a RIGOL on 02/15/2018 in tequipment USA, 430 dollars with shipping plus 200 dollars of taxes in Argentina, I do things in Arduino and small electronics projects, I get enough. Tequipment with the subject of post-sale support MALO, they told me to contact RIGOL, and those of rigol after 1 month of sending mail, they got in touch with me, I think they solved the problem, we'll see with time if it's like that, the equipment a marvel, I liked the siglent but they were 150 dollars more and I added 75 of taxes with that I bought a generator of functions fy6600, and almost a Chinese station of soldier, mine is a hobby. Enjoy your purchase

author: JaspaJami
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 17, 2018, 05:21:48 pm
content: Rigol DS1054Z is now 339€ VAT 0% (VAT24% 420,36€) with BND-MSO/DS1000Z options (so all the options. I know you can also hack them, but i think its nice to have licensed ones).https://iosignal.fi/shop/oscilloscopes/ds1000z/rigol-bnd-mso-ds1000z/Is there any decent competitions lets say under 500-600€ price? I have used before mostly only analog ones. But now looking for a cheap digital one for my hobby lab that is now without any scope.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 17, 2018, 07:22:05 pm
content: Just read the thread back a few replies. The Siglent SDS-1104 (100 MHz 4 channels) or the SDS-1202 (200 MHz 2 channels) meet your criteria. Unfortunately, the one I want, the SDS-2204 (200 MHz 4 channels) is a lot more money.

author: JaspaJami
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 17, 2018, 08:42:06 pm
content: ok, have to check that one more carefully. Can bus decoding is quite interesting that seems to be missing from Rigol

author: JS
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 17, 2018, 11:30:22 pm
content: Quote from: Adrian_Arg. on May 16, 2018, 12:43:08 pmI know it's a good piece of equipment, the Agilent was a tempting purchase as it has many features, not only the signal generator and bode plotting. I'm very used to do bode plottings and found them so useful as I work a lot with audio and freq/phase response is all, much more useful than looking at time domain signals. For audio freq is easy with the PC, 24 bits converters and all the toys there. The update rate in the siglent is much faster, record mode always on to catch the glitch you missed, the option to add the mixed sinal after the fact, same with signal gen and wifi(kind of a toy, network is fine).I guess I should have a code to do the bode in matlab or something and capture the data to the PC, but I'm use to do post processing of osciloscope data in the computer, as many things you can't do just with math data from the scope, would be nice that scope brands let people add it's own software to them as apps to process the data, haven't seen that though or the Rigol at least.JS

author: Distelzombie
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 18, 2018, 01:59:01 pm
content: Quote from: larsdenmark on May 16, 2018, 08:55:47 amI'm saying it: Buying an analoge scope today, for inevitably 150€ (incl. Repair, probes...), is NOT a good thing to suggest. My opinion is:1. They are mostly either defect or have been repaired before = High change it will break again soon.2. They're 20 to 30 years old and have disappointingly low amount of features.3. You paying so much for them, the same money could go into the 100€ DSO from Banggood. It is better -> because of it's many features, not bandwidth. You can flash your own firmware on it and will do whatever math function you want it to do.So I will never buy tech that is 30 years old just to... to what? Are you telling me to get it for training purposes? (Do you buy yourself a Z80 computer before you buy a new laptop?)What's the purpose of old, failing hardware that isn't calibrated anymore? Training? Like, those toys you played with when you were 1-4?You can't trust what it tells you, so the only thing you can do with it is play.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 18, 2018, 03:15:42 pm
content: Quote from: JS on May 17, 2018, 11:30:22 pmDo these scope based Bode' plots include phase? I can see how they can sweep a voltage and measure amplitude but I am curious if they also somehow display phase. More stuff to read, I suppose.BTW, a Bode' plot without phase is pretty much worthless. I can get the same answers with a DMM and a pencil and paper.

author: JaspaJami
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 19, 2018, 12:31:28 pm
content: I did order Siglent SDS1104X-E today. Little bit more expensive than Rigol DS1054Z, but i think its better for my use.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 20, 2018, 01:28:36 am
content: Quote from: rstofer on May 18, 2018, 03:15:42 pmWhen I learnt about these things, a "Bode" plot was an idealised rendition of the response of a network, withAmplitude & Phase shown as changing sharply at "break points".The plot you could realise in the real world with a signal generator & level meter or a tracking generator &Spectrum Analyser was normally called a " frequency response plot".In real life, the "break points "are not sharp, but gradual.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 20, 2018, 01:35:14 am
content: Quote from: rstofer on May 18, 2018, 03:15:42 pmSure they do, the more reading you are looking for:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/msg1435854/#msg1435854https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/msg1436912/#msg1436912

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 20, 2018, 02:07:36 am
content: Quote from: tautech on May 20, 2018, 01:35:14 amThanks for that! I'm getting more interested in the SDS 2104 as time goes by.As your example shows, 4 channels is definitely the way to go. And 200 MHz is as good as it gets in this price range.

author: JS
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 20, 2018, 06:54:02 am
content: Quote from: vk6zgo on May 20, 2018, 01:28:36 amAs tautech said, phase is also measured with the Siglent SDS1104X-E, so, not your signal gen & level meter measurement.Now, what deffinition of bode plot and frequency response plot was given to you I can't tell, Bode plot is a type of frequency response curve. For me Bode Plot is the kind of plots we are talking about, freq(log) on X axis, amplitude (log or lin in Db) and phase (lin) in two separate Y axis. It's quite easy to visualize a lot of things in that plot, hence it has a name. You can plot many different frequency response curves (frequency on the X axis as you like and whatever on the Y axis as you like)The sharply changing graphs are just a simlpification to be able to do by hand with raw approximations, probably exactly the same that where given to me, then you can plot the actual functions on the computer so they are not sharp anymore and they really match what you would measure in real life (if your model is correct).This is a measurement of a RLC audio equalizer. Mid (peak/dip) and high (shelving) band shown, where it says magnitude I'd change it for phase, probably smaart PC software or something like that, made many years away... I can't belive I found it.JS

author: sibeen
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 20, 2018, 02:24:31 pm
content: Quote from: Distelzombie on May 18, 2018, 01:59:01 pmSomeone offers a free scope and you bite his/her head off.Must be one of the strangest responses I've seen on this site.

author: Distelzombie
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2018, 11:23:20 pm
content: Quote from: sibeen on May 20, 2018, 02:24:31 pmI didn't even read that far.No, I don't want it. It will set the day I get a proper scope back even further.

author: Mattjd
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2018, 02:14:57 pm
content: I have a 1054z at home and it serves my purposes, which is learning and very rudimentary hobbyingWe have a huge range of Keysight scopes at school. The ones I've played with that are similar to 1054z dont seem much different even if they're a few hundred more. I've also gotten to play with an Infinii Vision 6000 series, its pretty to look at, but for nothing special for what I do. Its in the rf lab with 3ghz func gen, all way too overkill for my shit so I can't really compare. We also have a Infiniium Z-Series that's priced to like $250k with the software, that's in a special satellite lab, need special privileges to touch that one!

author: JohnnyMalaria
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2018, 03:51:12 pm
content: Quote from: Distelzombie on May 18, 2018, 01:59:01 pmBecause old hardware such as analog CRT oscilloscopes can still blow modern DSOs out of the water in some regards, particular the budget DSOs.I have a DS1104Z (100MHz version of DS1054Z) that I bought last year and a '74 Tektronix 475 CRT scope. For me, XY mode is essential so I can monitor my experiments properly. I don't care if it is "precise". As long as I'm within a couple of percent, that's more than sufficient. I was excited that the Rigol had XY mode - until I came to use it. Here are some short side-by-side video clips comparing the two.I have yet to come across anything that beats the old CRT scope for this. I can tell at a glance if my equipment (or the thing it is testing) is behaving correctly. It's the best tool for that job. To dismiss something because it is old and analog is short-sighted. I'm all three.

author: sibeen
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2018, 01:56:56 pm
content: No, no, no, that can't be right, JM.Nice videoI'd just find it strange that someone who doesn't own a cro (yep, I'm old) can be so dogmatic about the use and care of the beasts.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2018, 02:04:06 pm
content: I bought a Tek 485 from eBay about 12 years ago for around $200 and it still works fine. It was well used when I got it and it served up until I bought my DS1054Z a while back. It still has more bandwidth and it works well for things like X-Y mode. No repairs but it probably isn't anywhere near in calibration. I don't really care much about calibration, scopes are 'about' kinds of instruments. It doesn't seem to get the wrong answer either so it's close enough.I don't see the day when a DSO will replace entirely the capabilities of an analog scope - particularly in affordable bandwidth. It's the same the other way too, I enjoy the measurement features of a DSO.Both scopes will be staying right where they are.

author: Old Printer
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2018, 03:44:38 pm
content: Quote from: rstofer on May 24, 2018, 02:04:06 pmDitto on this. I have a 475 that I bought on ebay about 12 years ago as well. I worked fine then and does so now. I have a 2225 that I paid $100 last year and it works great as well. I look forward to getting my first DSO soon, but these two "dinosaurs" are not going anywhere, and with full factory service manuals for both I will likely be able to keep them running for as long as I am.For the price these things can be had for now I think it's silly not to have one.

author: IDEngineer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2018, 08:34:43 pm
content: I'll carefully tread into this whole "are analog scopes worth having anymore?" discussion.This thread's originator said "I've never used an oscilloscope before." With that in mind, I recommend he START with an analog scope. You can often find them on Craigslist, eBay has lots of them, and (since his username looks like a ham call sign) hamfests commonly see a few and/or local hams may have one they're willing to part with. Plus he has an offer for a FREE one, doesn't get much better than that.Don't view this as "No, I don't want it. It will set the day I get a proper scope back even further." Buy the digital scope on the same schedule you had planned. But LEARN about scopes by starting with the analog unit. Why? Because you will be "closer" to the signal with the analog scope. Digital scopes, with their sample memory and triggering that moves around within that memory, add layers of abstraction that you don't suffer with an analog. Analog scopes also have things I don't often see on digitals, like linearly variable amplitude and sweep. You won't spend lots of time on them but they are immensely valuable in acquiring a gut-level, intrinsic feel for how a scope actually works. The analog scope doesn't need to be in calibration. It doesn't even need fancy features. You need a horizontal sweep, a vertical amplifier, and a triggering circuit. Just those three things will teach you more than you realize, and all of that deep understanding will transfer directly to your new digital scope and make you far more proficient with it. Remember, you said "I've never used an oscilloscope before." The more, and easier, you learn about what a scope actually does, the better you will be at using ALL scopes.If it were me, I'd fire up the analog scope, switch its trigger to Auto, and put some repeating signal on the input. Even just the scope's own integrated square wave (used for calibrating probes) will work. You'll see a scrolling waveform on the screen. Play with the vertical sensitivity and get a feel for what happens on the screen. Play with the variable sensitivity knob too.Then play with the horizontal timebase. See how the waveform's visibility changes as you speed and slow the sweep rate. There will be a point where, perhaps with the help of the variable sweep knob, you can almost kinda sorta get the waveform "stable" and see its shape.This is already more visibility than you had with no scope at all, and even if you don't realize it you're training yourself to treat the scope not as this discrete "tool" but as an extension of yourself. Like wearing glasses, eventually you don't think about the tool and the tool just becomes part of YOU. You're already using two of the main sections of the scope.Now, it sure would be nice if you could stabilize that waveform on the screen, right? So it would stop moving around and you could really examine it. That's what the third main section, the triggering system, does. Switch the triggering system to Normal. If the screen went blank, don't panic... the triggering system will only let the trace move across the screen if the input voltage crosses the trigger level threshold. Now try varying the trigger level until the trace (re)appears. Note that it's stable now! The trigger system only lets the horizontal sweep occur when the input voltage crosses the trigger voltage level. You change that voltage with the trigger level knob.If you have access to a sine wave (this example doesn't work well with a square wave - can you figure out why?), use that and vary the trigger level. You'll see the sine wave move left and right as you change the trigger level, because as you change the trigger level it matches the sine wave at different places. Also try inverting the trigger slope. See what happens to the waveform on the screen.Now, find another signal source. Maybe a serial data stream, like RS-232 or CAN or USB or something. By using Normal trigger mode you will probably be able to get a psuedo-stable display, and by varying the horizontal timebase you should be able to fill the screen width with roughly one byte/packet. The waveform may be changing, but that's just the varying bits in the data stream.Now, without changing anything else, switch to Auto trigger mode. Lots of horizontal scrolling now, right? Can you explain why? Hint: Auto mode just mindlessly starts the next horizontal sweep when the previous one finishes. How does Normal mode differ from that?Play around - and I really do mean PLAY - with the analog scope like this, looking at every signal you can find. An hour or two of this and you'll develop an innate sense of how to tune the scope to the signal. You won't look for the "right" button or knob, your fingers will just go there. You'll stop thinking of the scope as separate from yourself, and start thinking more about the signal you're investigating. And all of this will transfer directly to your new digital scope. You'll be more proficient with it, faster, than without the analog scope experience.Could you do this starting with a digital scope? Sure. But it is my humble opinion that it will take you longer to become equally proficient, and you miss out on the "scope zen" that you'll quickly develop with the analog scope.I could go on and on, but hopefully you get the idea. Hope this helps!

author: JohnnyMalaria
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2018, 08:58:32 pm
content: Everything IDEngineer said.My analog scope is still my "go to" - comes on in a matter of seconds and its so easy and quick to fiddle with the horizontal and vertical knobs to find what I need to know.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2018, 10:31:59 pm
content: IDE overlooks some very important points for someone getting their first scope.Many of the points he makes are relevant and some aren't.With a CRO you have to 'drive' it and to do so some understanding of the controls are needed but just like any scope ever made the owners manual has some form of basic instruction of rudimentary usage.Engaging of the grey matter between ears yields more reward than twiddling with knobs.A DSO on the other hand has Autoset in which the scope adjusts to give the user a basic waveform from the connected source. For the DSO novice this 'gets you going' from which you can make further control adjustments to look at the signal in greater detail. The best advice I had was toknowof the expected waveformbeforeconnecting to the signal source. That was great advice !Frequency is not so important as amplitude where mistakes can place you, the DUT, scope and probe at risk.I was a beginner once too and although my first CRO use was over 45 years back at HS (no usage instruction other than what I'd read in books) it wasn't until in my 40's that I was given my first scope.....and that I had to fix first !At that time I was well old and wise enough to accomplish the repairs with minimal risk and thereafter owned and repaired numerous CRO's and early Tek DSO's and that's when I recognized DSO's were the way of the future.I still have 5 CRO's, some needing repair and Ineveruse them.In general my experience has shown me some parts of the circuitry in CRO's are under significant stresses, particularly the EHT (-1 to 3KV), vertical output amps (70-160 V) and PSU let alone the now aging electrolytic caps that are well past their 'best before' dates.To advise a beginner to get, maintain and use a CRO today is foolhardy IMHO, in particular for the maintenance or repair of HV supplies, something a beginner in electronics has neither the experience or tools to perform repair to any sort of success.Like buying an old car, if you have the tools and ability to keep it on the road then great, if you don't it could let you down and/or cost you money.New on the other hand offers guaranteed performance and a calibration cert.New gear also has a warranty so that additional $ can be well spent for piece of mind.In the end available budget should dictate CRO or DSO purchase along with the buyers ability to keep an old scope going or not.Edit to add.Whatever scope a novice selects it is highly likely over time they'll grow out of it, that is the basic functionality won't be enough as skills and knowledge grows. Modern DSO's and their wide range of capabilities will serve a owner for many years.

author: JohnnyMalaria
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2018, 10:50:24 pm
content: I think this comes down to the DSO itself. I have the 100MHz version of the one the OP is asking about. I bought it for portability. Having 4 channels is great and I use the FFT feature, crude as it is. But, I suspect because it is a budget DSO, some very simple things take unnecessary button pushes and knob twiddles. e.g., moving a trace up or down. It is slow to respond and not at all smooth. Not having things like the timebase or vertical gain actually on the knob is annoying, too. I have to think about the buttons I have to press rather than just turn the knob and this gets in the way of thinking about what I'm trying to do work-wise.I haven't used a high-end DSO and I suspect the experience is much more gratifying. My CRO is almost as old as me and hasn't needed any repair (at least since I got it 15 years ago and according to the Boeing aerospace engineer who had it before me).If budgetary constraints mean choose one over the other then, sure, the DSO makes sense. But if you can get a functioning CRO for $100 or less to learn the basics then it's a wise move. Or if you can find someone with one to show you.To me, it's like learning to drive a car with an automatic transmission vs. a manual. Do you need a manual? Probably not. Does learning how to drive one make you understand what makes the car react to things the way it does and to understand the "feel", absolutely. The difference in this case is that learning the manual is harder whereas learn the basics of an oscilloscope with a CRO is much easier. I'd also say that when someone first learns to drive a car, they usual get an old one rather than a brand new one with all the last "features" that, to my mind, encourage lax/dangerous driving. At the end of the day, though, you have to ask yourself "why do I need an oscilloscope and what features are critical and which are just fluff?"

author: IDEngineer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2018, 11:08:13 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on May 25, 2018, 10:31:59 pmSure, you can use a DSO's "AutoSet" feature. But you aren't learning nearly as much if you do.It's all personal preference. If you just want to see a waveform, AutoSet gets you there quickly. But if you really want to understand how a scope can be an extension of your mind while you're Engineering something, AutoSet is a crutch.Please note I encouraged our newbie to proceed with his DSO purchase. I just think he'll be a better DSO driver if he plays with an analog scope first. YMMV.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2018, 11:08:40 pm
content: Quote from: JohnnyMalaria on May 25, 2018, 10:50:24 pmHow so ?Most DSO's have a 'Fine' function on the vertical attenuator. Not something I use a lot but occasionally it comes in handy. Variable timebase on the other hand is a feature I don't miss in a DSO as it's too easy for the novice to leave it in the UnCal (unlocked) position. Then any frequency measurement you're trying to read from the graticules is sure to be way off.The modern DSO and even the old Tek ones I've had can be driven just as you would a CRO or manual car as the controls do the same actions, it's just there are more of them......something to grow into.I've mentioned AutoSet, it's something thathelpsthe novice, not something that replaces normal scope usage.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2018, 11:15:59 pm
content: When I had a DSO, which I don't now as I have minor tinnitus and the Rigol fan felt like someone shaking a can full of nuts in my ear, I shamelessly whacked auto most of the time and then tweaked the result.IMHO I'd hit a digital one if you're a new user. Even as a relatively old timer who has just spent the entire evening dissecting bits of analogue oscilloscopes all over the living room, I've got to say that as a beginner you need something that you know (a) works and is (b) likely to remain working and (c) accurate. Learning with crap or uncertain tools is doing yourself a big injustice.The only problems with budget DSOs is really a combination of soggy controls, incredibly overloaded functionality (each control does way more than N things you were expecting) and bugs.Personally I like the mid-ground. In 1994, HP kicked out a line of oscilloscopes, the 546xx line, which felt like and performed like an analogue scope but was a digital unit. Very nice pieces of engineering and even 24 years later, I think from an interface perspective they are better than any DSO I've used from Rigol, Tek and Agilent.

author: The_Boots
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2018, 01:38:03 pm
content: I know I'm new at this, but not having used an oscilloscope since college, I got a Tek 475 off Craigslist as my very first scope. In the three hours where it worked (before it died in a POP), I think I learned more about oscilloscopes, how they work and what they're good for than in either of my electronics classes back over a decade ago. I don't think I could have gotten that insight from a digital device because there's a disconnect there. You aren't seeing the actual signal itself-- just a series of samples of it. There's a physical connection between the electricity being measured and the trace. Being closer to the raw waveforms really helped me learn. Honestly, when it died I was SUPER bummed, because I was just starting to understand just how amazing a piece of tech it still is. Tons of fun! Plus, now I have an aspirational repair project for when I feel ready. This is not to say that I don't have an order for an SDS1104X-E (backordered! 😢), but I don't regret getting that old Tek. If you have an offer for a FREE analog scope, I honestly think you'd be nuts not to jump on it. If not as a usable scope, then as a fun thing to play with and learn from!

author: JohnnyMalaria
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2018, 02:01:04 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on May 25, 2018, 11:08:40 pmFor me, the frustrations of my budget DSO are: poor fluidity of the interface, overloaded buttons/knobs that mean simple changes require multiple actions, cluttered display without being unable to get rid of stuff I don't need, half-assed implementations of potentially useful functions (e.g., FFT). Nevertheless I'm glad I've got it and my CRO, too.

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2018, 02:21:03 pm
content: Quote from: JohnnyMalaria on May 26, 2018, 02:01:04 pmThe word "budget" as in the "budget DSO" exist for a reason.

author: IDEngineer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2018, 03:18:35 pm
content: QuoteThis is what all of us are saying. Not that an analog scopesubstitutesfor a digital scope, but that theycomplementeach other - particularly when an analog scope is used to gain a gut-level understanding of how an oscilloscope works. And given that an analog scope can be had today for next to nothing (or, in the original author's case in this thread, actually nothing!), there's really no reason not to give yourself the advantage of that education. Again, the analog scope doesn't have to be calibrated... doesn't need all of its features working... note in the recent post above how that author felt from just three hours of education on an analog scope. Why deny yourself that advantage when it costs (next to) nothing?

author: Doctorandus_P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2018, 07:03:10 pm
content: I bought a Rigol DS1052E ... years ago, long before the the1054z was introduced.It's an OK scope, and I do not really need a better scope, but I'm thinking of buying a Siglent as an upgrade "just for fun".- Much bigger screen, more info, less zooming. (Always a bit of a struggle on the old DS1052E.)- On the Rigol you always want to turn the menu's of, because of the small screen. (extra distraction).- Higher vertical resolution on the monitor (Rigol has barely enough vertical pixels for the 8-bit resolution).- Annoying rotary encoders on the Rigol. This is a very common point of failure. (Is that also true for the newer Rigol's?)- Siglent has Ethernet, (but unfortunately very slow screen update over Ethernet).- 4 channels, with protocol decoding can be used as mixed Scope / Logic Analyser.As a Logic Analyser, I'm quite content with the cheap ( < EUR10) "24MHz 8ch" boxes from Ali / Ebay / China, with Sigrok / Pulseview.But these lack the combination of Digital & Analog, which may be handy sometimes.

author: IDEngineer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2018, 11:51:43 pm
content: One more thought....Some kids like to claim that they don't need to "learn" math because their advanced calculator does everything for them. I'm reminded of that when I think about relying on a DSO's "Auto" function. You'll may get a stable display, just like the calculator may give you the correct numeric answer, but neither one means you understand what happened to get there.YMMV, just my $0.02, etc.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 31, 2018, 12:00:18 am
content: Auto is no different to an auto ranging DMM IMHO. Use it all the time. Easier than pissing around in the layered controls.Interestingly Philips did analogue scopes with auto.

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 31, 2018, 12:23:02 am
content: Quote from: bd139 on May 31, 2018, 12:00:18 amSame as the venerable Tek CROs.

author: Dubbie
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 31, 2018, 12:56:37 am
content: I agree with Tautech,I don't know that there is much educational value in starting out with a CRO.I started with a digital scope and to be honest, I didn't take long to learn how to use it. By far the hard bit of electronics is knowing what you are looking at represents, not how to look at it.I think the whole analog vs digital scope question is almost irrelevant for a beginner. Just get a digital scope, unless you really really have no choice but to use a CRO.Using a CRO is NOT going to make you better at electronics despite what some posters would have you believe. You will only get better by making lots of projects and reading and applying theory.A scope is not rocket science. You can become basically competent with one in an afternoon of playing around. learning to design good robust circuits can take a lot longer than that

author: JS
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 31, 2018, 12:58:03 am
content: Auto is ok when trying to capture a steady square-wave, not so much for odd pulses like transmision line reflection or odd one offs events or one in a bunch of other stuff things. In that cases the auto function might (will) not know what do you want to see and what you don'tJS

author: IDEngineer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 31, 2018, 03:10:10 am
content: Quote from: BravoV on May 31, 2018, 12:23:02 amYes, and I use a calculator these days to do math too. But I understand the concepts behind what the calculator is doing. Pressing the equal button on a calculator, or the Auto button on a scope, doesn't teach you anything. The example from JS about "not so much for odd pulses like transmision line reflection or odd one offs events or one in a bunch of other stuff" is a perfect example of what we're talking about.I like to actually understand my R&D equipment. But hey, maybe that's just me. Maybe Auto is good enough for design work these days, and I'm just an old fuddy-dud. (Speaking of equal buttons, my calculators don't have them because I use nothing but HP RPN. Two strikes against this old fuddy-dud?)

author: Dubbie
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 31, 2018, 05:15:38 am
content: Not sure I have ever used the Auto button on my scope.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 31, 2018, 05:21:54 am
content: Quote from: Dubbie on May 31, 2018, 05:15:38 amYep, the only time I ever use it is with a new model that I've not seen before....like, I wonder how good this works ?Blindly connecting a scope and pressing AutoSet is demonstrating plainly you have no idea of the signal you expect to see or have no idea how to operate a scope !

author: IDEngineer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 31, 2018, 07:05:07 pm
content: Quote from: Dubbie on May 31, 2018, 05:15:38 amI don't think I've ever intentionally used an Auto button. And I hate it when I do accidentially hit the Auto button, because I then have to go back and set everything to what I actually needed.There's no "undo" button. And Auto's idea of what I want to see is almost always wrong.

author: JohnnyMalaria
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 31, 2018, 07:14:18 pm
content: I wanna learn to fly!"OK - let's start with the basics. Hop into this single-engine Cessna."No! I want to learn in that Learjet! It's got autopilot and all kinds of stuff so I don't have to understand how the aircraft is interacting with the air."Oh, boy

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 31, 2018, 07:24:30 pm
content: Have you seen a glass cockpit Cessna 172S before? That’s the rigol.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 31, 2018, 08:14:08 pm
content: Quote from: IDEngineer on May 31, 2018, 07:05:07 pmYep I get that for sure.A while back Siglent added Undo for AutoSet.Just magic when you hit it by mistake.

author: IDEngineer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 31, 2018, 08:17:44 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on May 31, 2018, 08:14:08 pmOK, that's just pure genius!And think about it... it was probably added as a result of an oscilloscope expert at Siglent hitting Auto one too many times by mistake, and getting tired of resetting everything!

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 31, 2018, 08:29:34 pm
content: And I get called penis fingers

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 31, 2018, 08:34:16 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on May 31, 2018, 08:29:34 pmShhh, we're all afflicted to some degree !Quote from: IDEngineer on May 31, 2018, 08:17:44 pmI'll pop a screenshot up showing it later when I have a mo.Probe cal signal with some random scope settings:AutoSet

author: innkeeper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 15, 2018, 04:19:13 am
content: is the Siglent SDS1104X-E the best bang for the buck under $500? Even considering the current free upgrades now offered from rigol?

author: JS
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2018, 04:35:10 am
content: Quote from: innkeeper on June 15, 2018, 04:19:13 amDepending your needs, Siglent offers a bit more, with two asics has twice as much samppe rate, except with a single channel, more digital bus decoder standards and a few options extra, as adding wifi, nixed signals and gen after the fact.I trust the user interface will get better with time, rigol had 5 years to develop.If you need, or will need and can afford now, some of the optional stuff from the siglent and can live with their user interface maybe 150 worth the difference. For me in Argentina getting the siglent with the function gen would be twice as much as the rigol, so I went for the rigol and I'm happy.The bode is pretty limited in the siglent, as the gen it comws with, the possibility to add the MSO is cool but could be done other ways maybe cheaper. I wouldn't bother with wifi as I use LAN all over the place and wice the sampling is quite pointless for me as I do small embedded and audio, nothing close to need 1GSa/s. In case I need to check a signal for something I can use single channel 1GSa/s. With all that I couldn't afford twice as much, still 150 is 43% extra, not a small difference. Rigol still is good bang per buck, as ia the Siglent, but pricepoint isn't quite the same. Now, if options weren't included, I absolutely need advanced trigger and serial decoder, plus deep memory and record are quite nice to have, so price would be more similar and we are talking a different thing.JSJS

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2018, 02:02:21 pm
content: Quote from: IDEngineer on May 31, 2018, 08:17:44 pmThe DS1054Z has an Undo function as well. It comes up on a menu that gets displayed after using Auto.

author: mrrrwhat
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 17, 2018, 02:46:09 pm
content: which two channel scope is the best bang for the buck under $600?

author: JohnnyMalaria
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 17, 2018, 03:05:09 pm
content: Quote from: mrrrwhat on June 17, 2018, 02:46:09 pmThat depends on your application. What do you plan to use it for?

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 17, 2018, 05:10:03 pm
content: Bandwidth is the most important spec, right after channels. Since the question is specific to 2 channel scopes, the new Siglent at 200 MHz is probably as good as it gets.http://www.saelig.com/siglent-sdsx-series/sds1202x-e.htmThe thing is, 2 channels scopes are somewhat limiting when you want to do things like decode SPI transactions where you would really like to see 4 signals simultaneously. If this application is of no concern then so be it.The Rigol is a very good 4 channel 100 MHz scope (when unlocked) at about the same price as the Siglent above. So, the decision is 4 channels/100 MHz versus 2 channels/200 MHz.If I was willing to sink $600 in a scope, I think I would kick in a little more and get the SDS1204X-E 4 channels, 200 MHz. Remember, bandwidth is king, except channels.http://www.saelig.com/product/sds1204x-e.htmOne of these days I'm going to buy the sds1204x-e. I have the Rigol so there is no hurry but that Siglent is getting some rave reviews.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 17, 2018, 08:24:58 pm
content: Quote from: mrrrwhat on June 17, 2018, 02:46:09 pmUnder $600, by far the best value isnowSDS1104X-E !See the reason why:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/msg1612639/#msg1612639Sure put the SDS1202X-E up in this discussion for a good bit less @$ 379 however it's much less featured than the 200 MHz SDS1204X-E 4ch equivalent but we don't have to spend $759 for it now.

author: mrrrwhat
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2018, 03:55:57 am
content: From china, there have a special model call sds1104x-c that can free upgrade to 200M(the cost down version of sds1104x-e)Waveform Capture Rate (Max.) downgrade to 50,000 wfm/s (normal mode), 200,000 wfm/s (sequence mode)sds1104x-c and ds2072a are selling same price from china, i am comparing which one better

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2018, 04:14:37 am
content: Quote from: mrrrwhat on June 18, 2018, 03:55:57 amThe SDS1004X-C doesn't appear to offer MSO support either but the pics still show the S-Bus front connector.If sampling rate is what you want get the DS, but for channels, get the SDS.

author: innkeeper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 19, 2018, 11:45:05 pm
content: Made up my mind and ordered a Siglent SDS1104X-E, for me it seemed like the best bang for the buck.Would I liked to have the extra 100mhz of BW that the Siglent SDS1204X-E offers, sure, but simply it was a budget limit as 500 was already more then i had originally intended to spend, I was originally budgeting for the rigol ds1054Z.but what really after reading all I could, I came to the conclusion that it simply outclasses anything at its price point by far, and with the ability to add on the arbitrary waveform generator logic analyzer functionality later its a good stepped growth path as the hobby budget permits.Really was a no-brainer for me in the end.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2018, 12:00:56 am
content: Quote from: innkeeper on June 19, 2018, 11:45:05 pmAnd of course planning to hack the 1054Z to 100 MHz too, right ?Study reply #62 again !

author: innkeeper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 20, 2018, 01:40:55 am
content: Quote from: tautech on June 20, 2018, 12:00:56 amoh i got it the first timewatching those threads with great intrest.

author: innkeeper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 23, 2018, 02:01:02 am
content: to Saelig .. I got the sds1104x-e in 2 days, and even came with a complimentary copy of circuit cellar(didn't even know they were still publishing)... now, where is the darn focus knob ... just kidding

author: ornobian
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: October 13, 2018, 07:45:09 pm
content: Yes, It's the best buy oscilloscope and it's in amazon choices.