Use Siglent SSA as LCR Meter / Bode Plot? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: Attenbach
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 05, 2024, 04:09:02 am
content: Hi all, first post in this forum (after months of reading here)thanks to this forum, I recently received my first own instruments ever and am now a happy owner of a Siglent SDS804X HD Scope and a Siglent SSA3021X Plus SA!Yesterday I used the keygen approach to unlock all function from both instruments, set the 804X to identify as a 824X and equally unlocked the SSA to its full 3.2 GHz capabilities.I mainly do power electronics, incl. disassembling and testing power supplies and their components. I mainly purchased the SSA for EMI pre-certification, but I saw a from w8bya titled "Siglent SSA-3021X, Basic Use of Tracking Generator" and was wonderingif/how to use the TG output to do Inductance vs Frequency sweeps forpowerinductors(or capacitance vs frequency for capacitors)...Is it even possible, and what would be the best approach? I am not cool enough for RF stuff, I mainly care about the behaviour up to 10 MHz, 30 MHz at maximum, accurately (without the use of an LCR meter). I haven't found much info either on Bode plots, if that is the way to go. Or whether the SSA3000X is the right instrument out of the one's I have access to.Any insight would be highly appreciated!I can worst case borrow a SDG6000X function generator from a friend. I have not been able to use the capacitance measurement mode on my (emergency) UT210-E multimeter.Edit: took out the YouTube box

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 05, 2024, 06:03:59 am
content: Welcome to the forum.You have one step to go, making a SVA from what you have to gain its VNA mode and Smith charts where a marker can be placed on the trace to provide L, C and R values.More homework will guide you.

author: Attenbach
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 05, 2024, 07:11:14 am
content: Thank you tau, the legend himselfI will try this, and post my journey in this thread. For any other approaches I'd be very glad to learn more about the instruments capabilities.

author: Attenbach
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2024, 03:18:41 pm
content: Sorry for the absolute noob question. Can someone please provide any pointers on where to start reading in to?I have consulted the User manual and Youtube videos on VNAs and SVA specifically and I don't know where to look for how to master this instrument.I know that this isn't what I am supposed to see.I simply want to characterise passives (L, C, R) between 100 KHz (min. on VNA mode given by datasheet, lower would be better) to max. 10 MHz. Any insight into what I don't know (apart from everything) would be soo helpful!Thank youPS: I currently do not own a Signal/Function gen nor calibration references. I can solder well and have access to basic electronics hardware if necessary (think Taipei's Guanghua 5min away)

author: Attenbach
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2024, 03:23:54 pm
content: OK thanks to Dave's videos, i figure I need the TG. Can I just wire the Inductor/Cap/Passive in series with a cable going from TG to RF Inpunt and then test (after calibrating a short and open circuit)?If yes, do I understand correctlz that the part is inserted into the measurement wire and the shielding ground is uninterrupted, both during open- and short circuit calibration?If yes, since the LCR is a main use case, can I just make a jig with a pcb and Part holders similar to those found on handheld LCR meters that I can short out with a large flat strip with ideally low inductance and resistance to normalise it and reduce setup errors? (Yes/No is totally fine. I apologise...)I offer to write a small tutorial for other people in this thread once I got it going. Your advice hence has exponential benefitsThanks!

author: Simmed
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2024, 03:31:44 pm
content: this reminds me of jaxbirdhttps://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/impedance-analyzer-build-and-experiments/?all

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2024, 07:14:57 pm
content: Quote from: Attenbach on December 07, 2024, 03:23:54 pmYes in VNA mode TG is the Source of the stimulus which provides S11 reflection measurements and when you need through (S21) measurements Port 2 (RF In) is also used.You will need a fixture to characterise/measure components but you can cobble something together very cheaply with single row IC headers, Veroboard and SMA headers.See attachment.You might need to cobble together some DIY Cal standards to use with your fixture to remove the cabling, adapters and fixture effect on measurements.You'll also need to change Points from the default of 201 to 1k or more (10001 is max) to get interpolation happening instead of a series of adjoining lines.Log Mag and Smith charts should get you on the right track but Smith R+jX is what I would use.See P75.https://int.siglent.com/u_file/download/24_05_17/UserManual_UG0703P_E02E.pdfHave fun.

author: Attenbach
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 08, 2024, 10:46:50 am
content: Thank you two for the super helpful pointers!Update:I started reading VNA primers from R&S and Tek, as well as the user manual from the link below.I made the three Calibration standards as seen in the picture (2x 100 Ohm pointing upwards, orientation doesn't really matter for me as I operate in nearly DC (max. 10 MHz)).I set the VNA into S11 measurements, stark freq. at 100 kHy, stop at 30 MHz, with 10k points, no averaging, rest left untouched (I think).I performed 1-Port cal on the TG Source connector, and still, I don't get the smith chart that you guys getWhen I switch over to Log Mag, there is just +10, -20 dB noise around 0 dB, no matter whether the port is open circuit or short circuit etc.What am I missing?PS: not seen in the pictures, TG LED is lit green (as it should be)

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 09, 2024, 02:10:40 am
content: Reference measurements from SVA1032X....Initial results were way off which indicated a Cal was already in effect from 'boot with last settings'.Performed Factory Reset to eliminate it.Full sweep with 10k points.N-SMA adapter and SMA load.....tested as good to 18 GHzOpen measurements just with open port.Load using the previously mentioned ......As attached FYI

author: Attenbach
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 09, 2024, 06:38:00 am
content: tau, I have the worlds best random number generator. This is my first spectrum analyser, or vna for that matter, and I have never seen this thing output a simple dot or curve on the smith chart.here with 200 measurments, you can better see where the magic square comes from. I reaally want this thing to work...I have not found anything remotely close of an error to find out what it could be. Again, it is a brand new purchase, I keygen'd and crossflashed the device and I am not sure if this caused something. I will try am firmware upgrade to an older sva version and seeEDIT: picture wasn't attached, fixed thatEDIT 2: TriedSVA1032X Firmware – V3.2.2.4.0 (Release Date 01.21.21 )SVA1000X_Firmware_V3.2.2.6.0R7 (Release Date 06.09.23 )SVA1000X Firmware_V3.2.2.6.2R5 (Release Date 06.28.24 )but it always quickly complains with "Update Failed".Systeminfo shows Software: 6.2R5, model being SSA3032X Plus (it said in the crossflash tutorial, that the old serial number is a cosmetic problem, I don't mind)EDIT 3: Forgot to say, yes I did the factory reset under "Preset - Factory Reset" as shown in the manual, to no avail

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 09, 2024, 07:03:42 am
content: Quote from: Attenbach on December 09, 2024, 06:38:00 amMeasurements I have shown are just of Open and Loadwithouta Cal being applied to obtain the 50 Ohm dot or short sweep around the Smith chart edge for Short and Open.They are only representative of measuring a Load and port Open with a factory Cal using SVA1032X.Take them as nothing more......than FYI....Currently without any full Cal kits as member and buddy hendorog have mine including a new 26.5 GHz Ecal for deep investigations with his VNA's and my SNA5004A.

author: markus_jlrb
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 09, 2024, 08:30:50 am
content: @Attenbach,I recommend you to buy a LiteVNA64, see linkhttps://eleshop.de/catalogsearch/result/?q=LiteVNA64https://eleshop.nl/catalogsearch/result/?q=LiteVNA64in order to get more experience on VAN staff and in ordernot to destroy your more expensive SSA by playing with L's and C's.As far as your f range of interest is not below 50kHz theLiteVNA64 could help you to collect the necessary knowledgeand in case of destroying the device you only burn less then200 Euro and not 2kE++.LiteVNA64 is a good device but could be even to expensive for thevery first steps too, so in this case get a cheaper VNA of thenanoVNA product family (less then 100Euro) to collect your firstexperience.Please do not misunderstood my advice - I just try to help you tosave money and earn fun with you new purchased tools without beingdisappointed due to making some stupid errors.Markus

author: Attenbach
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 09, 2024, 03:47:35 pm
content: Dear Markus,thank you so much for the advice, I appreciate it, incl. a link to a Eleshop! Awesome, thanks!I will think about it, ironically, I bought the SSA for EMC pre-compliance (along with a LISN and a built-in 10dB attenuator) and was simply daring the crossflashing to see whether I could save on purchasing a dedicated LCR meter for semi-accurate testing passive components from my power supplies.Instead of the nanoVNA, I assume it would be better to invest this into an LCR meter and give up on my RF trips, because that is not my fieldYou all made it look so easy, so effortless. I wish...Thanks for any further advice, or questions. I am willing to try out anything that may help you in understanding what's going onPS: I will seriously consider getting the nanoVNA just to practice as you said.PPS: I can also confirm I have never applied DC to the SVA, knowing what that could do.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 09, 2024, 04:09:38 pm
content: Quote from: Attenbach on December 09, 2024, 03:47:35 pmHave a look at the Shannon ST42 LCR Tweezers. They're quite good, and not expensive.

author: egonotto
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 09, 2024, 04:28:03 pm
content: Hello,maybe you should take a look at the Analog Discovery 3. It can also be used to measure LCR up to 30 MHz.In the short threadhttps://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/th2851-130-and-and-other-inexpensive-devices-to-measure-lcr/some measurements are documented.Best regardsegonotto

author: techneut
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 09, 2024, 07:24:11 pm
content: This what my screen showed the first time after upgrading:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-ssa3000x-spectrum-analyzers/msg3087608/#msg3087608It looks a bit familiar.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 09, 2024, 11:17:20 pm
content: So after a rat around found some Cal standards and went through a 1 Port Cal and applied it.The load used is a quite good one and later compared against a homemade 3x 150 Ohm SMD resistors in parallel.Screenshots attached for reference.

author: Attenbach
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2024, 04:21:47 am
content: thank you so muchtechneut, that was exactly the issues. I have added my finding in the the SSA3021X thread and will use this thread to continue explaining how to use this device to do component analysis. Thanks!

author: Attenbach
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2024, 10:08:52 am
content: Ok, I am back in business. I managed to measure the first passives here as shown with this inductor coming in at around a sensible 250 µH.Does anyone know whether it is possible to plot a single variable vs. frequency, for example here plot inductance (Y) vs frequency (log10(x))?Feels like a low-hanging fruit to have such a plot with so much more to offer. Especially given that Siglent doesn't offer a dedicated LCR Meter or IA.I have tried all formats, but none reveal more info than the R+jX and rotating the cursor to get a feeling.Thank youPS: I suspect if there is no such thing, the last solution is to export the raw data through SCPI into the pc and plot it there...

author: markus_jlrb
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2024, 11:45:34 am
content: @Attenbach,that's the point that I meant, see attachment.You are working with power-coils/power-transformers,so be careful not to catch some energy spikes while measuringwith your SSA (like from solder iron, motor, psu, other em-fields from transformers, etc.)in order not to destroy your new device!Same refers to caps in nF/uF range holding charge not beingdischarged properly!Markus