Pitfalls with home CCTV systems - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: John B
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2022, 11:18:44 pm
content: I'm doing some research for a home installation of a CCTV system. It's not for me specifically (I'm just giving advice), and it will be done by a professional installer, so I assume it's a common brand name install like Swann or something (but I have to check exactly what system it is).When they started questioning where the internet connection was, it piqued my interest though. I'm reminded of the pitfalls of companies mandating internet integration of their products, and the security risks of having a company being able to access your home cameras. Or reliance on long term subscription fees with minimal local hard drive storage etc.Just wondering if there are some obvious issues I should know with specific companies, or in general with modern CCTV installations?

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2022, 11:49:42 pm
content: Quotepower draw,a mate asked me to check the electrics in his unit as the leccy bill had jumped fairly substantially,only thing that had recently changed was new cctv.Turns out it was drawing nearly 300w,24 hours a day 7 days a week,around 50 units a week.

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2022, 01:21:46 am
content: Quote from: John B on July 28, 2022, 11:18:44 pmThe suggestion I have is that we should always specify that the security system is being installed in a remote location with poor net connection if any at all. If any company cannot hop that first hurdle, move on to next.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2022, 01:28:17 am
content: Quote from: themadhippy on July 28, 2022, 11:49:42 pmHow do you make a home CCTV system that uses 300W? Was it mining crypto by any chance?

author: onsenwombat
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2022, 02:40:59 am
content: Quote from: Ed.Kloonk on July 29, 2022, 01:21:46 amThis is a good suggestion. Having your CCTVs hooked in public internet is as red as a flag can be. People, don't do it. If you need online access to the system, have a "well secured" gateway computer isolating them.Many of these companies are questionable (some countries have had cases where the staff has been eavesdropping on their customers). The hardware is probably questionable in terms of security. So is any and every piece of software running the system. So yeah, offline all the way.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2022, 03:37:41 am
content: How about just DIY it using open source software wherever possible?

author: SmallCog
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2022, 06:26:46 am
content: I'm not particularly fond of the idea of WiFi cameras on the home network. You've got issues around the potential security weaknesses as well as just plain old network congestion.If your friend did decide to use WiFi cameras put them on their own completely separate WiFi network.The benefits of wireless cameras are quickly chewed up if you need to run power to them, may as well use wired cameras then too.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2022, 07:31:32 am
content: Quote from: themadhippy on July 28, 2022, 11:49:42 pm300W for a CCTV system? The DVR I've got with two cameras pulls about 6-7W. At night about 10W with the illuminator on. It's fanless, because it's relatively little power.What kind of system was it - some kind of server rack with redundant RAID drives and gigabit ethernet switches? 300W is not a trivial amount of power, so there would need to be air cooling at least. That's the kind of power a low-spec gaming PC might pull and you definitely hear those fans whirring.

author: BradC
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2022, 07:50:23 am
content: Quote from: John B on July 28, 2022, 11:18:44 pmFriends don't let friends use Swann, or anything off the shelf at Bunnings for that matter.Most of the "affordable" consumer grade stuff comes from Chinese companies that are partially owned by the CCP (for whatever that's worth). Most have had one or more complete authentication bypass vulnerabilities in recent history and in general they comply with the "The S in IoT stands for Security" mantra. ie, there is none.Keep the systems off the internet, and if they do insist on remote access do it via a vpn. Prevent the cameras or NVR getting outbound access. Avoid the "cloud" based solutions. Make sure the devices are recording 24/7 rather than on-motion because guaranteed they'll miss the event you actually need the footage from.Most consumer grade NVRs have multiple PoE ports on the back for a point-to-point camera cable install, but aggregating at a cheap PoE switch can often be more convenient.Don't cheap out on storage. Thumbsuck 1TB per month per camera.Companies like Hikvision or Dahua are about as far toward the bottom of the barrel as I'd recommend you go, and in general a camera is going to be a couple of hundred bucks. Recorder double or triple that, plus drives.You can go cheaper, but you get what you pay for.A step up from that would be a PC running Milestone X-Protect (free up to 8 channels) or BlueIris (paid and up to 64 channels). Personally I think BlueIris is a toy, but it's a decent step up from Chinese NVRs.

author: Muttley Snickers
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 29, 2022, 08:15:47 am
content: Quote from: BradC on July 29, 2022, 07:50:23 am/\ This is good advice. /\Quote from: NiHaoMike on July 29, 2022, 03:37:41 amIn Australia you need to have a security license and be registered to install or maintain any and all security and alerting devices, including alarms, cameras, access control, intercoms, door bells and just about anything else.I'm out of the game now but had been a security technician and installer for nearly three decades, customers still ring but due to health concerns I'm no longer able to help and I just refer them to mates who I trust will look after them.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2022, 09:34:29 am
content: I'm pretty impressed by the Annke/Hikvision cameras we've got. Analog HD, 25m cable runs no problem at all.There's absolutely no way it's getting hooked up to anything other than a VLAN for networking though. I do not trust the network security of the device itself.

author: BradC
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2022, 11:13:47 am
content: Quote from: Muttley Snickers on July 29, 2022, 08:15:47 amActually, if you are installing for yourself at a premises you own then technically you don't need a security installers license (although this can vary on a State by State basis). On the other hand, unless you hold an open cablers registration it's technically illegal for you to run a cable.I won't get started on regulation though or I'll be here all night.Quote from: tom66 on July 29, 2022, 09:34:29 amThis is a pretty good position to start from.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2022, 12:27:00 pm
content: Quote from: SmallCog on July 29, 2022, 06:26:46 amI'm surprised at the lack of Homeplug security cameras. It would simplify the wiring to just connecting the camera to the nearest mains connection and not have most of the disadvantages of wireless.

author: BradC
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2022, 01:08:05 pm
content: Quote from: NiHaoMike on July 29, 2022, 12:27:00 pmIf you'd spent much time playing with powerline ethernet you'd no longer be surprised.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2022, 02:48:32 pm
content: QuoteQuotewhich is basic what this barging basment unit was, a basic pc with 8 cameras recording 24/7 to a hard drive

author: ajb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2022, 04:37:39 pm
content: While it's a lot spendier than other options, the NVR systems from Synology and Ubiquiti seem to be pretty good in terms of functionality, and both give you the option of remote access/viewing without actually needing to store your footage in the cloud.For Synology you can add NVR licenses to most of their NAS products, so you while it's expensive to get started, it includes general-purpose network storage, at a wide range of different capacities, and you can set up remote replication and remote access (via dynDNS) if you want. They support a ton of IP cameras, since the NVR is just ingesting a video stream.I'm less familiar with the Ubiquiti stuff, but I think it's a more closed ecosystem in terms of which cameras are compatible, but you get a pretty nice all-in-one management interface that integrates nicely with all of their other networking/access control/voip stuff. It seems like some of the functionality is a little rough around the edges still, which is a bit of a downside, AIUI a lot of it is fairly new and still under active development.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2022, 04:41:23 pm
content: Quote from: themadhippy on July 29, 2022, 02:48:32 pmKind of ridiculous then that got spec'd. I got a 5 channel DVR with 2 cameras, just needed to add a hard disk, for about £50. A quick Google suggests you can get an 8 channel unit without cameras for about £60, so how a PC even remotely came into the cost consideration I just don't know.

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2022, 10:11:57 pm
content: Quote from: BradC on July 29, 2022, 07:50:23 amHikvision is not "bottom of the barrel" its basically the best image quality consumer level camera you can get.Swann sells rebranded Hikvision products, as do many others.Of course they have a range of cameras, you have to spend ~$150 as you say for good quality (4MP/2K). But you don't necessarily need a 8MP+ image for every location. A front door camera for example, 1080P is probably fine.

author: John B
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2022, 12:16:30 am
content: The proposed system is a Dahua TiOC system.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2022, 03:49:32 am
content: Quote from: BradC on July 29, 2022, 01:08:05 pmThe insulation in newer buildings often contains foil layers which severely attenuates Wifi (especially for outdoor cameras), Homeplug is not affected by that. Neither is going to beat a proper Cat5/Cat6 run, but installing that's not always an easy option.Quote from: tom66 on July 29, 2022, 04:41:23 pmCould be a used (then) high end PC or server with crypto mining further subsidizing the cost.

author: BradC
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2022, 02:36:35 pm
content: Quote from: John B on July 30, 2022, 12:16:30 amTimely, but this happens often enough that it's not really news.https://thehackernews.com/2022/07/dahua-ip-camera-vulnerability-could-let.htmlDahua (like Hikvision) make workable cameras but are a bit lackadaisical with their attitude to security.Quote from: thm_w on July 29, 2022, 10:11:57 pmI didn't say they were bottom of the barrel. I said they (and Dahua) are about as low down in the barrel as you want to go. There's plenty below them, but there's a lot above them also. You get what you pay for. For domestic use they're probably fine, but keep them isolated from the world.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 01, 2022, 09:37:22 am
content: Yeah I have to agree, 300 watts does seem like a lot. My entire server rack (2 servers, 2 switches, firewall and a few other bits of pieces) pulls about 500 watts in total.