BYD (Burn Your Driveway) Vehicles track you, and what you say.... - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 24, 2024, 06:55:57 am
content: It's no surprise that modern vehicles upload all kinds of data remotely, including live location data, and this doesn't just involve shitty Chinese cars, but high-end German brands like BMW (even though they won't admit it).In anarticlepublished today, BYD seems to take it a step further, by not only logging your real-time location and address information (where you live, work etc...), but also insists that as a user of a BYD vehicle, you've provided "implied permission for surveillance for improper activities."What are these improper activities you say? Well apparently in the user agreement, you're not allowed to "insult other countries or regions, spread rumours, disrupt social order, or undermine social stability". In other words, China and/or the CCP.I've said it before and I'll say it again, there are very good reasons vehicles like BYD, MG, Chery, Haval, Great Wall etc... are banned by certain government departments and will never be driven by their staff when undertaking official duties. This is the kind of thing security researchers and cybersecurity personnel have been saying for years, and it's bloody scary.

author: Analog Kid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2024, 07:01:28 am
content: I will never, ever, ever buy a goddamn EV. Never.Fuck that shit!

author: Andy Chee
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2024, 07:15:24 am
content: Quote from: Analog Kid on November 24, 2024, 07:01:28 amMissing the point.A Chinese petrol/diesel vehicle will likely be bugged also. Nothing to do with EV.

author: Analog Kid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2024, 07:43:44 am
content: I will also never, ever buy anewcar. Nothing newer than, say, 2016 or so. (Driving a 2010 model now that has given me zero problems.)

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2024, 07:46:23 am
content: in communism, you don't inspect the car, the car inspects youI imagined a BYD deciding to take the 'closed for bridge repairs' ramp when its driving a officerIf two nations are in competition, every single economic choice 'effects stability'

author: Analog Kid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2024, 07:50:14 am
content: By the way, speaking of missing the point, massively, the conventional wisdom here is "China bad! China spying on you!".While there may be a kernel of truth there, the fact is that every Western country is getting into the spying-on-you biz, big time, so there's really no reason to trust any other car maker more than the Chinese ones at this point. The whole world seems to have gone insane with "security" regimes (just check out Britain in particular, where you can now be arrested for making the wrong kind of social-media posts--and we're not talking about ones where you threaten to shoot up the local school either).

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2024, 07:52:48 am
content: despite all nations having laws, it seemed that generally the first world had a much better track record with surveillance and civil liberties violations then the second world.It kind of has to do with more ethical oversight, less grand corruption, somewhat accountable leaders.I think most reasonably intelligent people will figure out that if the same program is implemented in the first and second world, it some how ends up being more fair and reasonable in the first world, when looked at as a whole over a decent period of time.We see 'government is spying on you' as kind of a joke. they have the same phrase, but its a really stern warning. For instance, capital rioters. Some prison, a few pardons, government seems at least kind of reluctant to throw the book at them after a great deal of surveillance/investigation/evidence. Same thing in a competitor country, yikes, better order alot of body bags. I imagine in China you would best go into hiding if you saw TS go down from a great distance away that day !Its kind of like if you tell cheif wiggam to 'take care of it' or if you tell 'fat tony to 'take care of it'. exactly the same instructions, two greatly different results. their both not exactly pleasant people you want to deal with, but there is a big difference

author: Analog Kid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2024, 08:13:58 am
content: Quote from: coppercone2 on November 24, 2024, 07:52:48 amNot any more it doesn't.

author: Andy Chee
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2024, 08:19:39 am
content: Quote from: Analog Kid on November 24, 2024, 08:13:58 amDisagree.For almost every vehicle model, you will find car enthusiasts willing to teardown and reverse engineer their vehicle, down to every nut & bolt, and these days down to every microchip. Any spy equipment or firmware will be dsicovered.Whilst these enthusiast may well be fanbois and rarely speak ill of their pride and joy, I seriously doubt 100% of them are complicit in the greater governmental spy apparatus.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 24, 2024, 08:40:39 am
content: Quote from: Analog Kid on November 24, 2024, 07:50:14 amThe issue I have, especially with China (and when I say "China", I mean the CCP), is that they aren't just spying in the conventional sense, they are trying to assert their dominance and apply their internal laws to everyone else, not just their own citizens.Just about every nation spies on each other, that's a fact. But the likes of Five Eyes nations, for example, have zero interest in collecting masses amounts of data on regular citizens and building dossiers on people who dislike Trump, or the Australian Labor Party etc...No one should ever punished for being critical of the CCP outside of China... ever. The same goes for any other government or nation. Anyone should be free and open to express that the CCP is one of the most immoral, corrupt, organisations in the world, and dictator Xi can go suck a fat one (may or may not be my own opinion). The CCP has zero control over me. Never has, never will.There are absolutely reasonsnotto trust China over other manufacturers. In fact, distrust of Chinese products should, and is increasingly becoming the default (and I'm not talking about product quality).

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2024, 08:51:43 am
content: also that kind of data can be used to maximize the effect of a military action (i.e. traffic patterns, hourly population density) to maximize effect.individually its kind of useless, but in large amounts, accurate position data defiantly would let someone maximize their 'bang for the buck' . That does on some sense mean cheaper strategic weapons preparation costs for potential enemies. Also I am sure bioweapons people are salivating over that data.

author: Andy Chee
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2024, 08:53:10 am
content: FWIW, here's a BYD Seal teardown video

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2024, 10:05:03 am
content: In the EU this kind of stuff is very heavily regulated to the point that BYD Europe would receive a huge fine if they were collecting the data without the ability to opt-out.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2024, 12:30:05 pm
content: Just don't connect it to your Wifi. Do you think they're interested enough in your data to pay for a cellular subscription?

author: grumpydoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2024, 12:47:42 pm
content: Quote from: Halcyon on November 24, 2024, 06:55:57 amDo they "not admit it" these days? - I had a 2018 BMW which was nicked off my drive & the first thing the police did was ask me to give them permission to ask BMW for the location.The thieves had had the car for > 12 hours by that point though so we reckon it was already in pieces, or in a shipping container.Plus, new BMW's and Audi's can relay their location to their respective "apps" so clearly have the ability to tell the mothership where they are

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2024, 12:55:33 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on November 24, 2024, 10:05:03 amAnd you believe that they are concerned, that this will stop them, and that any regulatory body is paying that much attention at this point?Quote from: Analog Kid on November 24, 2024, 07:50:14 amYou mean the sort which fuel riots and further drive people down the path of extremism and hatred?

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2024, 01:13:37 pm
content: Quote from: Halcyon on November 24, 2024, 08:40:39 amThe USA does that tooQuoteYou need to pay attention to the reputable news reports about what Trump hasrepeatedlysaid he will do to his opponents (politicaland otherwise) when he gets back in power. It is quite scary.If you want URLs, I'll dig them out - but that could reasonably be regarded as "politics".

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2024, 01:49:42 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on November 24, 2024, 01:13:37 pmNot really, given he said similar things last time. Remember he went on about jailing Hilary Clinton. Never happened. He's full of hot air.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2024, 01:50:02 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on November 24, 2024, 10:05:03 amEasily worked around, as Microsoft shows. You quietly introduce a new feature so the end user doesn't realise it's there, and then, just in case, hide the opt-out option at the bottom of an obscure menu tree.

author: BBBbbb
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 24, 2024, 02:22:53 pm
content: Quote from: PlainName on November 24, 2024, 01:50:02 pmIt's a cat and mouse game, but at least EU is playing it, not just calling it quits.I expect Chinese EVs will be under more intensive scrutiny, as a way to protect domestic industry.What you see with these new cars is no different than what is already there in PCs and phones from big tech, in the speakers/assistants from Amazon, Sonos...

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2024, 02:22:59 pm
content: Quote from: PlainName on November 24, 2024, 01:50:02 pmNot really, GDPR makes it necessary to clearly seek consent if any change in privacy settings will occur.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2024, 02:30:49 pm
content: Quote from: Zero999 on November 24, 2024, 01:49:42 pmLet's hope so.The difference is that then he and his acolytes didn't know how to operate in Washington. Now he has much more knowledgeable, canny and powerful acolytes, has pre-stuffed the legal system with sympathetic drones - and he controls all branches of the government.

author: Jeroen3
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2024, 03:26:00 pm
content: Quote from: NiHaoMike on November 24, 2024, 12:30:05 pmUnfortunately, all new cars come with a cellular connection built-in. And a multi-year OEM wordwide contract.The actual modem must be there for the mandatory SOS function, if you turn that off your car is no longer road legal. (sos button is inspection point)If you want a car that does not spy on you, you need to buy at least before 2018 vintage.

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2024, 03:38:36 pm
content: Monksh:Reading your comment, on social media posts that 'FUEL RIOTS', ...'drive people to extremism'.Could that also, maybe, include the Thom Hartman show, where he likes to read books that cover racial-based lynchings (1924), as if the lynching thing is 'getting worse'.What does that sort emphasis cause.The talk show host has one foot in the past (1924) and one foot in the present, and wishes for measures to stop that 1924 hate stuff.Oh, yeah...there haven't been any riots, they were mostly peaceful fires.

author: Andy Chee
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2024, 03:46:14 pm
content: Quote from: Jeroen3 on November 24, 2024, 03:26:00 pmAre you sure about that? Not all warning messages mean failed MOT (e.g. low fuel), and SIM card removal would be one of those, I would've thought.In any case, I would think that shielding the antenna would also be straightforward.

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2024, 04:25:28 pm
content: All modern cars collect tons of data and phone home. Yes, it's disgusting and a violation of privacy. However, BYD's new surveillance and behaviour control is an absolute no-go and plain illegal in many countries. This sounds very much like the CCP's next attempt to enforce its narrative worldwide.A related fun fact is, that in China Tesla cars are banned in specific 'sensitive' areas for national security reasons.

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2024, 04:36:08 pm
content: Quote from: Jeroen3 on November 24, 2024, 03:26:00 pmAnd this is going to be problem over here in a few years. The mobile modems of older cars are GSM based and the first mobile provider has just announced to shut down GSM in three years. Nobody has an answer yet, i.e. junkyard, expensive G4/5 modem upgrade or exemption.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2024, 04:39:39 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on November 24, 2024, 02:22:59 pmHasn't stopped most of them. And it matters not whether it breaches anything - rules have to be enforced, and by the time anyone gets around to dealing with this there will be some other stuff to take its place. A fine would be seen as just the cost of doing business (see Google's recent slap on the wrist, for instance).

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2024, 04:52:50 pm
content: Quote from: Andy Chee on November 24, 2024, 03:46:14 pmIt is in the Netherlands. SOS not working -> MOT failure. And the repair costs are high as well.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2024, 07:12:53 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on November 24, 2024, 02:30:49 pmI'm pretty optimistic about the upcoming administration. The fact it's upset so many people and the mainstream media have been continuously complaining about it is a good thing.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2024, 07:29:32 pm
content: Quote from: Zero999 on November 24, 2024, 07:12:53 pmDestruction is easy; even thick criminal vandals can do it.Construction is difficult.Point to keep in mind: more important thanwhatis being done isto whomandfor whomit is being done. Look at nationalist leaders' friends to predict the latter. If you aren't one of those, you are one of the former (e.g. everybody on this forum).Populists' principal strategy is to persuade people not to think that way, but to focus on a very different Them vs Us until it is too late. Works all over the world.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2024, 07:48:26 pm
content: the other thing to consider is what the effect is from having all this foreign connected hardware if relations degrade significantly. Suddenly there is more 'options' to take.If something happens in Taiwan, does anyone really think the CCP won't try to leverage 'soft' options like things with Chinese hardware in cars, to help sway western allies ?Anything that occurred in the middle east or western Europe is basically a realistic option for the future of any conflict. The statement/rules made by BYD implies that the 'partnership' between the government and the company had advanced to a point where its 'on the table' without any more discussions, votes, security orders being issued (all of which are a obstacle for implementation).A note worthy feature of the CCP that always needs to be considered with analyzing their stuff is the high level of direct government influence (board level or better) in their companies, which is implemented by law as a standing order for anything above a certain modest size. The west does not really have a equivalent, it only seems to get involved under specific (time sensitive) court orders or at the highest (strategic) level during particular events, i.e. when someone is selling big strategic company overseas. Quite a few companies in China have CCP committees internally. Granted, their probobly not the most popular thing because business usually hates government, but the foot is in the door.

author: Ben321
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2024, 07:50:53 pm
content: Quote from: Halcyon on November 24, 2024, 06:55:57 amI've never heard of BYD brand before. Is that a Chinese brand?

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2024, 07:51:57 pm
content: Sir I need the details about the fine rock you live under, it sounds like it could help me get some sleephttps://www.cnn.com/2024/04/03/cars/china-tesla-byd-competition-hnk-intl-dg/index.html

author: JPortici
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2024, 07:58:47 pm
content: Quote from: Halcyon on November 24, 2024, 06:55:57 amwe've been testing BYD for some time for some projects... are you implying that if i said fuck china all this time we would have had the car not working?Cool.(not saying it wouldn't be true, but it just sounds too ludicrous to be true... which means it's probably true)

author: Ben321
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2024, 08:02:42 pm
content: One thing that those complaining about car tracking don't think about, is HOW the signal gets sent. The fact is there's a cellphone based modem in these cars. And that requires a sim card and a subscription to a cellphone service. And that subscription costs a monthly bill. The cellphone company isn't going to provide free cellphone service to your car's modem. So unless you (the car's buyer) pay that subscription fee, you are not going to have any cellphone service to the modem, and thus the car company is not going to be getting any data from your car's usage. And last I checked, there's not a recurring fee for owning a car (associated with the cellphone service), so such a service must be optional (otherwise it would be part of the contract that you would NEED to pay this recurring cell service fee or your car would stop working). Maybe most people pay it without thinking and it's just part of their "monthly bills", and these people just assume cars always track you so they complain, but they are forgetting that THEY are the ones who enabled the tracking by signing up for such a service to begin with, and not canceling the associated cellphone subscription. So really they are the ones who caused themselves to be surveiled by their lack of paying attention to what services they signed up for when they bought the car, and lack of paying attention to who was billing them whenever their monthly bills came do (probably just on autopay so it charges their bank automatically so they don't even have to think about it every month, and thus don't notice who's charging them and for what).

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2024, 08:09:39 pm
content: If you buy a car outright (pay full price at the time of purchase) , there is no "monthly bills".

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2024, 08:16:12 pm
content: Quote from: Bud on November 24, 2024, 08:09:39 pmYou may (or may not) have bought the car outright, but what assurance is there that you have also bought the cellphone service required to enable the car to run? It sounds like you need "bit fuel" as well as "electron/hydrocarbon fuel".And never forget the monthly subscriptions for BMWshttps://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-62142208The future is already here, but it is not evenly distributed.

author: Analog Kid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2024, 08:48:18 pm
content: Quote from: Halcyon on November 24, 2024, 08:40:39 amWhich isexactlywhat all the other "great powers" (well, just one these days, the United States of Amnesia) are doing:It's called global dominance. Hegemony. It's what empires do.Which is why I have to snort and laugh derisively when I hear all the breast-beating here about how the Chinese are such bad actors: it just seems like so much projection, and deflection from our own malfeasance and subterfuge.Doesn't anyone remember Edward Snowden and what he revealed about what those motherfuckers at the NSA were up to? Nope, it's down the Memory Hole with that.All empires end up being evil. And fortunately, all empires eventually fall.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2024, 09:24:00 pm
content: Quote from: Analog Kid on November 24, 2024, 08:48:18 pmExactly. If I were Chinese I'd want China to be doing as much as they could to get their country to the top. That would improve my standing (as a hypothetical Chinese citizen), my family's standing, security would likely improve, etc. You cannot think of China as evil for simply being more competitive than the USA. The USA should rise to that competition. It is good for everyone.

author: Analog Kid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2024, 09:28:11 pm
content: ^^^^^ Well, ackshooly it's bad for everyone.Competitioncould, theoretically, be good for everyone, depending on how it was conducted. Makes everyone bring their best to the game and all that.But if it's cutthroat, burn-your-cities-to-the-ground, destroy your economy, winner take all, all your bases are belong to us, etc. ...

author: Analog Kid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2024, 09:30:36 pm
content: And you also have to keep in mind where the Chinese were just a short time ago: as late as the 1980s they were still largely a bicycle-riding society with much of the country in deep poverty. Look at their trajectory and ask yourself, if you were Chinese, would you want to go back to those days?

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2024, 09:52:02 pm
content: The problem with that kind of outlook is that it is great and dandy so long as you get to benefit from it, but if you're one of the collateral cases - perhaps because you like to speak your mind - then you are royally fucked. Look at Hong Kong right now, and compare to how it was before China took it back. Most probably keep their heads down and do ok-ish, but those that haven't...Does the same happen here? I don't think so, but since I can only go from what the papers report I can't really know. I'm fairly sure the like of Russia would be trumpeting it if it were happening, though.

author: Analog Kid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2024, 10:04:12 pm
content: I'm certainly not claiming that China isn't repressive, violates human rights, all that. No argument there.But you know what? That's their problem, not ours. Or at least it shouldn't be. It's really none of our fucking business, unless we fancy ourself the world's policeman, moral arbiter and regime-changer, which unfortunately we do. Talk about imposing one's values on the rest of the world.As countries like that evolve from impoverished agrarian societies to advanced industrialized ones, some change towards the better is usually in the cards. Like increased respect for human rights, labor rights, environmental protection, etc., which are actually detectable currents in China the last few years. Because people anywhere don't like being shat upon, and will resist it, even under an authoritarian regime. Which means the rulers have to respond, and so long as they're not absolute despots or insane megalomaniacs, they'll make bargains.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2024, 10:21:19 pm
content: Quote from: PlainName on November 24, 2024, 04:39:39 pmYeah. All a company needs to do is to collect the user's consent, and that's what they do when you sign the sales contract. It's written there somewhere. If you haven't read it, it's not their problem.The company still has full right to refuse service to a user who didn't give their consent. So in practice, it's just a game of either you consent, or you have nothing.

author: John B
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2024, 10:34:27 pm
content: Quote from: Ben321 on November 24, 2024, 08:02:42 pmThat all assumes that the manufacturer doesn't just factor in the long term cell functionality into the sale price of the vehicle, so that they have the ability to use it well into the future.As long as there's an antenna, there's a vulnerability.I'd love to jump on the electric bandwagon, but every newish vehicle, electric or otherwise, is packed with this spying crap.Electric conversions are still a thing. I'll happily take a milk float with simple motor controllers and a comparatively small battery vs these new age nightmares.

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2024, 11:42:42 pm
content: Quote from: Andy Chee on November 24, 2024, 03:46:14 pmRestore to stock to pass MOT, take it back out afterwards? That's what everyone with mods knows to do for the past few decades...

author: Zoli
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 25, 2024, 12:07:26 am
content: Quote from: Ben321 on November 24, 2024, 08:02:42 pmThat's Huawei's job./conspiracy theory

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 25, 2024, 02:03:38 am
content: Quote from: JPortici on November 24, 2024, 07:58:47 pmI'm not specifically suggesting that, but it's the kind of crap the CCP would pull. They are in the information game. Information leads to control.Why else put that clause in if they aren't actively monitoring or trying to enforce it?Quote from: Ben321 on November 24, 2024, 08:02:42 pmIt won't be free, but in countries like Australia, data is cheap as chips. They won't be traditional voice/SMS/data plans either. Carriers supply M2M type SIMs for this purpose. Same goes for things like power meters etc... They aren't capable of voice or SMS (they aren't assigned a phone number), but they do have access to data.Quote from: Ben321 on November 24, 2024, 07:50:53 pmYep. Their slogan is "Build Your Dreams", but colloquially it's known as "Burn Your Driveway" because of the instances of them catching fire, particularly while charging.

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 25, 2024, 03:05:45 am
content: John B:Reading your comment, on easy plan to evade any surveillance. Don't get your confidence up, from just that single tactic.As Benjamin Franklin said:"If you give up your transmissions, to obtain privacy...you will eventually have neither."What happens, when you get denied a sale of your SECOND vehicle.purchase, from BYD, with suspicions that they've been tracking you and your critical comments ("F..ck Ch..na).

author: Analog Kid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 25, 2024, 03:10:36 am
content: Sorry, the idea that the Chinese gov't. would take action against any foreigner (non-Chinese) saying "Fuck China!" or anything else derogatory in one of these cars sounds quite absurd to me. Possible, I suppose, but certainly not likely.Now for Chinese citizens, that's a whole 'nother story. But really, the idea that they're going to punish someone in Yurp, or the US, or anywhere else for insulting their country? To me, that's a stretch.For one thing, just imagine the logistics: it would require a vast surveillance network to even accomplish this. People (maybe not so many here on this forum but among the general public) have this Hollywood-tinted idea that this could be done in some automated fashion, using advanced voice recognition and AI. But at some point some poor human is going to have to sift through all the incoming reports, throw out false positives, massage the data. I don't think even China in its maximum-paranoia mode would be willing to spend what it would take to cast the net that widely.I could be wrong about this, of course, but that's my belief at the moment.

author: Andy Chee
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 25, 2024, 04:25:17 am
content: Quote from: Analog Kid on November 25, 2024, 03:10:36 amThe action wouldn't be overt.I would imagine it be something like intentionally "software bricking/locking" the car, and flashing a dashboard message that it needs service inspection by the dealer.The dealer then resets the car's firmware, and has a chat to the driver about how great China is.Anyway that's my conspiracy theory....

author: Analog Kid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 25, 2024, 04:49:52 am
content: ^^^^^ Sorry, doesn't sound all that plausible to me.I'd think the Chinese have much bigger fish to fry than making life "interesting" for one of their critics like that.But who knows?

author: Andy Chee
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 25, 2024, 04:59:40 am
content: Well if the driver was just a random you or me, then I would agree, not plausible.But what if the driver was head of national security? Or CEO of a major semiconductor company?Sure, they probably wouldn't be driving a BYD in the first place.But that's the whole topic of this thread.... they should never be driven in Chinese vehicles for this very reason of spying!

author: Analog Kid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 25, 2024, 05:01:20 am
content: Quote from: Andy Chee on November 25, 2024, 04:59:40 amSure, that I'd buy.That would fall under the heading of targeted espionage.

author: Zoli
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 25, 2024, 05:25:05 am
content: Quote from: Analog Kid on November 25, 2024, 05:01:20 amFun fact:https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a62694325/ford-ceo-jim-farley-daily-drives-xiaomi-su7/

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 25, 2024, 05:29:35 am
content: The Xiaomi SU7 seems pretty cool to be fair.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 25, 2024, 08:52:05 am
content: QuoteWhy? The few that get caught in the (automated) dragnet are just collateral. No-one involved will give a toss about them. (And if they haven't explicitly dissed the surveilling state in the car, they no doubt think it anyway.)

author: AVGresponding
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 25, 2024, 06:34:43 pm
content: Quote from: Analog Kid on November 25, 2024, 03:10:36 amIt's well known, and well documanted, that the Chinese government harasses "Free Tibet" members/activists of many nationalities.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 26, 2024, 02:34:51 am
content: Quote from: Analog Kid on November 25, 2024, 03:10:36 amChina has a vast surveillance network already. Both within China and beyond.Think of it this way, China collects information about you and determines you're a threat. For example, an Australian who expresses that Taiwan is an independent nation. You then travel to China, what could happen? Maybe nothing, or perhaps they use that as justification to seize and examine your electronic devices. Perhaps you're followed around so they can keep a close eye on you? Maybe worse?They have already attempted to harass and control Chinese people overseas, through illegal "police stations" and whatnot. If they don't comply, they go and harass and in some cases, imprison their family members back in China until they return to "face their crimes". It's not so far fetched that they try that kind of crap on others once you step foot into their country.As you say, it is quite absurd to you and I, but it's the kind of crap they try to pull all the time. China is a classic case of a creepy stalker or ex-partner who gaslights everyone else into thinking they are the problem. The CCP sees themselves as being the victim, not the aggressor. They try every tactic under the sun, including attempting to pull the race card when governments ban their crappy telecommunications infrastructure.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2024, 08:24:28 am
content: Quote from: tggzzz on November 24, 2024, 07:29:32 pmYes. That's exactly why I'm optimistic.

author: BBBbbb
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 26, 2024, 02:45:06 pm
content: Quote from: Halcyon on November 26, 2024, 02:34:51 amFirst - I wouldn't call their telco infra crappy. The reason why Huawei stuff was spreading like wildfire in telco infra around the world (including UK, EU,...) was because it was superior and cheaper. Two friends working for 2 different ISPs in to different EU countries both said the same - well documented and superior support to anything they had before.Of course it probably had backdoors, but so did the US vetted one.And there we come to the real problem. Both big superpowers are known for doing the things you described above! And you cannot exclude others if given the opportunity behaving the same, this is why making this a China problem is a shortsighted issue. These uncontrolled telematics have to be heavily regulated and need to provide clear (and defaulted to) opt out.

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2024, 05:28:10 pm
content: FYI, Huawei started with copying network devices from well known vendors 1:1 and selling them cheaper than the original ones. For example, they have tried to sell 1:1 copies of Cisco routers to a former employer.

author: BBBbbb
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 26, 2024, 08:17:28 pm
content: Quote from: madires on November 26, 2024, 05:28:10 pmLike many CN companies they started with copying until they built up knowledge to innovate.Today they have highest number of 5G related patents.Hard to blame anyone else but the western companies who rushed to shift manufacturing there in order to cut costs and gain access to their market, knowing very well Chinese approach to intellectual property.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 26, 2024, 10:20:18 pm
content: Quote from: BBBbbb on November 26, 2024, 02:45:06 pmI would absolutely call it crappy. Huawei aren't exactly known for manufacturing high quality stuff, but they sure know how to rip off designs from others. Sure, it's OK in terms of quality, but the vulnerabilities and ability to turn them into security risks is a pretty big problem. There are reasons why its cheaper.I definitely wouldn't be comparing Huawei with a company like Ericsson. Apples and oranges.

author: Andy Chee
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2024, 06:32:28 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on November 26, 2024, 10:20:18 pmYou have to ask yourself then.... when it comes to choosing a product to purchase, why do consumers ignore "crappiness" & security, and continue to purchase cheap Huawei branded products by the thousands? (and that's ignoring Chinese consumers, which due to massive population will skew the numbers of any product)Put simply, security is not an important consideration in the mind of the average consumer. It's a blindspot that China (and others) have no qualms about exploiting.

author: Chicane
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2024, 08:04:24 am
content: This is not only an old news, but biased as well. All American and Japanese cars collect the same data, including your entire phone book, text messages, calls and everything else CarPlay and Android Auto and Bluetooth enabled head unit has access to. Driver behavior (speeding, harsh acceleration, harsh braking) is also collected and sold to insurance companies in US. European car manufacturers are far more restrictive to who they sell the data to. But GM, Stelantis (FCA), Toyota and Honda are selling it to whoever is willing to pay. GM was recently in the news for that.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2024, 08:17:27 am
content: none of that comes close to the clause "insult other countries or regions, spread rumours, disrupt social order, or undermine social stability".its the generic totally open ended door wide open to whatever a closed CCP investigative body feels like doingits their usual. Make a list of seemingly reasonable sounding rules, then add some totally open ended generic clause. Kind of like the hong kong security law that took over HK government . There was like 1 rule in there that said "we can do whatever we want". A generic statement on 'subversion' . The definition is whatever a closed CCP organ thinks subversion might be while reviewing the information.It sounds stupid to worry about a car. But a investigator that feels they are honest (a stickler) WILL be opposed to gross hacking/break ins/totally illegal wiretaps, but if some how through purchase agreements its justified that the car is a Chinese asset, etc... then its fair game, even for the 'honest' intelligence officials that are not in any kind of shadier position. Like he could follow his own rules. The people that do shit 'off the books' are like harder to get/manage/trust. So when they write it down, it does mean something. It actually does put you at more risk if its written down, because you agreed that the investigation is basically not part of a 'black project', at least internally in china, so more people would be willing to 'work the case'. Then suddenly their working with 'unpopular technicalities.' That is alot easier for the Chinese public to swallow. Everything takes some sort of 'marketing', and this text makes it easier. Basically they get more resources if youagreeto it. I think people that don't see this have a very one dimensional unrealistic view of how a country operates intelligence work.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2024, 08:48:04 am
content: Quote from: Chicane on November 27, 2024, 08:04:24 amThere's a difference in that the US companies collect it for commercial reasons (that is, to make a buck) whereas China collects it for political reasons (that is, to punish dissenters).

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2024, 09:34:30 am
content: Quote from: PlainName on November 27, 2024, 08:48:04 amIn China the citizens can't change the politicians and political behaviour, whereas in the US the citizens can't change the corporations and corporate behaviour.Compare and contrast the advantages and disadvantages of those behaviours, as seen by citizens.

author: paulca
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2024, 10:00:38 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on November 24, 2024, 08:40:39 amThe issue I have, especially with the USA (and when I say "USA", I mean the CIA/ISA), is that they aren't just spying in the conventional sense, they are trying to assert their dominance and apply their internal laws to everyone else, not just their own citizens.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2024, 01:25:35 pm
content: QuoteYes, both sides do. Generally, the citizens of a particular state overlook what that state does internally and mostly agree with the state's stance externally. (Of course, there will be dissenters who make loud noises, but unless there is some really unignorable screwup, most citizens like to carry on without undue hassle.)E&OE, IMO, IANAD, etc.

author: BBBbbb
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 27, 2024, 02:08:39 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on November 27, 2024, 09:34:30 amOk, without going deeper there, lets put it like this:There is far far more documented harm done by US to people outside the US, then there are example of China doing to people outside of China.So with this logic, I should be more afraid of US having unchecked insight into my privacy, than China.But all this discussion comes from a bad place - a distraction of "fear the other side", bot powers are using it to distract from their malpractices with out private data.Do not fall into the trap - it's China that is collecting the data, thus it is bad.No! No! No!You are then implicitly allowing others, representing themselves as "good guys" to collect it.Anybody collecting data that they have no business collecting is bad and needs to be fought against.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 27, 2024, 04:09:02 pm
content: Quote from: paulca on November 27, 2024, 10:00:38 amAre they? Can you explain how?I don't see the US opening up illegal police stations in China.I don't see the US harassing it's own citizens whilst abroad, telling them "If you don't like Trump, you're in the shit".I don't see the US handing out rewards for people who report anti-Trump individuals to police.The US is far from a model Government, and some of the shit they do is crazy. But it's not this crazy. The US couldn't care less about me, even if I drove a BYD/Chevy/Whatever.

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2024, 04:21:46 pm
content: That's either NAIVE, or deliberately (*********** comments hidden, so as not to be too personal, as EEVBLOG Forum guidelines).The majority of 'spying' (Zuckerberg) is anti-trump, pro woke, pro DEMs. Now let's not play games, with modifying 'history', in current terms.Yeah yeah, all politicians are the SAME...Blah blah blah: revisionist garbage.Are you a democrat activist, here ?(Making my hand shake, lol)

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2024, 04:32:04 pm
content: Sorry, there, if I've read your comment wrong, but so much mud slinging these days.I guess you meant...actually, you know, Halcyon, I still can't decide that last one, so I'm apologizing in advance. (Biden /Harris is the current admin.). Thanks, Rick B.