How are moderators allowed to lie? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / projects

author: DejanC
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2024, 03:26:29 pm
content: QuoteHow is this an acceptable take about Nikola Tesla, one of the greatest inventors of our time?

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2024, 03:40:59 pm
content: Quote from: DejanC on August 13, 2024, 03:26:29 pmWere you there at the time he was around?If not then how can you be so sure he was a great inventor?That is the problem with history, it often is open to interpretation and can also be biased by whom ever wrote it down. You can see the same on the internet in modern day. Open for many interpretations and often way besides the truth.An important thing is to make up your own mind based on lots of research and who has the time to go through many publications to actually look for what might be the truth.It would be nice if you add a link to the post your quote originates from, so we can see the context in which the statement is made.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2024, 03:55:57 pm
content: Quotesome say the same about Edison,others call him a nothing more than a fraud who stole ideas from others.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2024, 04:03:44 pm
content: This is the post I guess.Moderators are normal persons they are allowed to make private opiniated personal posts.It is more interesting to discuss the video, is it correct or is it social media garbage ?I vote for the first, she shows facts, documentation, articles. But indeed charlatan is a too big word since he did invent that motor......https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/teslas-radiant-energy-experiments/msg5599659/#msg5599659

author: DejanC
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2024, 04:09:24 pm
content: So they can have opinions and shut down and lock a thread based on their opinions?If Tesla died broke, doesn't that point to him not having the influence to be able to claim an invention over all others?He has a SI Unit named after him but he's a fraud. So then EVERYONE is a fraud.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2024, 04:16:04 pm
content: Quote from: Kjelt on August 13, 2024, 04:03:44 pmThere is nothing to discuss in the video, which is why the thread got locked. It just descended into pages of conspiracy theory stuff.(For the record, someone spent an hour doing electrical demonstrations in a home workshop. All were demonstrations anyone could do, and many have. Where the video lacked value was there was no explanation of what was being demonstrated, no description of the underlying theory, and no whiteboard discussion of what was being observed and why. So the whole thing really lacked interest and was too boring to watch all the way through.)

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2024, 04:19:33 pm
content: Oh did not know it was locked. I referred to the video Simon posted about the EE historian about Tesla.I never saw the rest of the topic

author: DejanC
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2024, 04:22:02 pm
content: QuoteThat's what I'm saying. How is it allowed to call Tesla a fraud and lock the thread, but if I post a video about Radiant Energy experiments asking for a reference to modern textbooks, effects or other similar videos it gets locked?

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 13, 2024, 04:25:31 pm
content: So was Tesla valve a scam as well?https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_valveQuickly scrolled through that video and it looks like its pretense is based on strawman.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2024, 04:27:19 pm
content: Meh.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ányos_JedlikInvented the electric motor, dynamo.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottó_BláthyInvented the transformer.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miksa_DériInvented the closed loop controlled electric AC generator.They also put all these into manufacturing.Tesla and Edison played with electricity.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2024, 04:31:35 pm
content: Quote from: DejanC on August 13, 2024, 03:26:29 pmHe’s entitled to his opinion, and Simon certainly has the tendency to take very extreme positions on things. I guess that’s his personality. I don’t fully agree with him, but I don’t really agree with you, either.On the video he posted, I made this YouTube comment 2 years ago, which I think is a more balanced take on the matter:QuoteQuote from: DejanC on August 13, 2024, 04:09:24 pmWell, it doeslookbad to post such a strong opinion as the closing post, insofar as it makes it look like it’s just a way to sneak in the last word. But I agree with IanB that the intent was likely just to not continue discussing Tesla quackery.As I said 2 years ago: quacks and non-technical laypersons have come to deify Tesla to a degree (and in a direction) that is not actually supported by his work. I don’t think he was a charlatan, but I think he had a lot of ideas that were more or less fantasy. For some reason, some non-technical people latched onto that aspect of his work and glorify him based on it, which ultimately leads to some of them basically flogging quackery.Quote from: DejanC on August 13, 2024, 04:09:24 pmHuh?Quote from: DejanC on August 13, 2024, 04:09:24 pmOh please, can we not descend into that level of “discourse”?

author: DejanC
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2024, 04:35:39 pm
content: QuoteNo one claimed he invented THE electric motor, or THE transformer. He invented his induction motor/generator and Tesla transformer, AC systems, X-ray and many others. Please look up his 200+ patents

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2024, 04:45:36 pm
content: I agree that locking the thread directly after the last post being from a moderator looks bad, but do we know for sure that Simon locked that thread?I foresee a similar fate for this thread, it being locked due to on the one hand Tesla worshiping and on the other hand calling him a fraud spiraling down into war.

author: DejanC
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2024, 05:01:47 pm
content: QuoteOn one hand, he died broke and penniless. On the other, there is a claim he is a fraud and did not invent ANYTHING he claimed. So how did a broke and penniless fraud able to silence all the real inventors?

author: Terry Bites
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2024, 05:06:20 pm
content: Not so much lies but just poorly informed and biased comments. Nationalism plays a large part I suspect. With plenty of sales wank and snake oil poured in too.Bragging is the national sport in some countries. No names.....So many things do get invented at the same time by separate individuals, its called convergence. Who gets the credit is the first to market or the first to publish. The latter usually requires some good mates on the peer review panel. Yes, there's proper corruption in science publishing!In the case of the Tesla-Edison spat see lovely Kathy's video:https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://www.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3D6331JXvOUGY&ved=2ahUKEwjzx5LCs_KHAxUaU0EAHV9iMV0QtwJ6BAgTEAI&usg=AOvVaw0WUVC_yXHYeB5URQUNZYRwIt seems that both Edison and Tesla were equally unpleasant and narcissistic individuals. Not fun loving chaps like old Steinmetz.Still; slag off dead people off before they make it ilegal and leave the living in peace.www.eevblog.com/2024/08/09/eevblab-120-dcs-sues-youtuber-for-defamation-threatens-entire-review-industry/

author: SteveThackery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2024, 05:10:53 pm
content: Quote from: DejanC on August 13, 2024, 04:35:39 pmPatents don't have to work. Especially not ones posted 130 years ago.Tesla was a strange mixture of brilliant and a fantasist. He was obsessed with "resonance", but he clearly had no conception of damping. He insisted a small vibratory device could bring down an entire building just by vibrating it at its resonant frequency. Of course he only boasted about it, never demonstrated it. It can't work because buildings don't have one resonant frequency, and also because the damping effect of the materials would dissipate the energy almost immediately. Plus, of course, no demolition company has ever used resonant vibrations to bring down a building. If it worked, they would. His vision of sending energy all around and through the earth also took no account of the massive losses such a system must incur.Very odd. We honour him most by acknowledging the inventions he proved to work; it dishonours him to fabricate an entire fantasy world of heroes and villains, where magic rules over physics and the forces of evil oppress our hero and us little people. It's so naff it's embarrassing.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2024, 05:15:14 pm
content: Quote from: tszaboo on August 13, 2024, 04:27:19 pmI don’t think that’s a reasonable representation of the history.The Karlsruhe Institute of Technology doesn’t hold back intheir opinionof Jedlik:QuoteBlathy and his colleagues Zipernowsky and Déri certainly massively improved the transformer, but to say they invented the concept of the transformer is untrue. I do think it’s fair to say that they built the earliest practical AC transformer.And Edison and Tesla certainly did more than “play” with electricity. I feel their individual contributions tend to get overstated, but it’s equally disingenuous to downplay their contributions.

author: DejanC
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2024, 05:17:24 pm
content: Quotehttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millennium_Bridge,_London#:~:text=The%20bridge%20opened%20on%2010,on%2012%20June%20for%20modifications."Unexpected lateral vibration due to resonant structural response caused the bridge to be closed on 12 June for modifications."QuoteThank you! I would expect more integrity from a moderator...

author: SteveThackery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2024, 05:17:31 pm
content: Talking of fantasy, he once claimed to have exceptional visualisation skills, to the extent that he could construct a machine entirely in his head, run it, and then dismantle it and inspect it for wear!He obviously felt the need to exaggerate and lie, and claim blatant fantasies as fact. Such a shame, because he did have some remarkable skills - skills which needed no exaggeration.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2024, 05:19:09 pm
content: Quote from: Terry Bites on August 13, 2024, 05:06:20 pmOh yes. You really notice this if you move from one country to another. Suddenly, a completely different group of people from what you “knew” invented everything. In reality, the true history is usually way more nuanced. Exactly the convergence you speak of.

author: iMo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2024, 05:22:07 pm
content: AFAIK all the stuff you are talking about (and even much much more) have been invented by the well-known inventorMr. Jara Cimrman, born around 1855 in Austrian Empire, I forgot the town..

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2024, 05:22:39 pm
content: Quote from: DejanC on August 13, 2024, 05:17:24 pmI was responding to a statement by tszaboo, who is not a moderator, and is not Simon. Don’t put words in people’s mouths.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2024, 05:23:47 pm
content: Quote from: DejanC on August 13, 2024, 05:01:47 pmWho was “silenced”? This is conspiracy theory drivel IMHO.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2024, 05:25:47 pm
content: Quote from: SteveThackery on August 13, 2024, 05:10:53 pmI love this statement so much I had to Quoted for Truth™ it!

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2024, 05:26:24 pm
content: Quote from: DejanC on August 13, 2024, 05:17:24 pmYou referenced the wrong thing. Try this instead:

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2024, 05:26:55 pm
content: Quote from: DejanC on August 13, 2024, 05:17:24 pmA bridge and a building are not the same thing.

author: SteveThackery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2024, 05:27:24 pm
content: Quote from: DejanC on August 13, 2024, 05:17:24 pmGoodness me, you are hard work! Firstly, it was a bridge, not a building. Secondly, it was in no danger of being demolished - it just upset the people on it. That is very important.Find me an example of a vibratory device capable of demolishing an actual building and we might take it more seriously. The only one I can think of is the earth itself, when it's having an earthquake. The energy input is so vast, resonance and damping are both irrelevant.Anyway, I should stop, otherwise we'll just end up extending the thread that got locked. You should apologise for accusing the moderator of lying. He expressed his opinion - that is not lying.Tell me: are you one of those people who see conspiracies everywhere, and believe that "free energy" is being suppressed by the dark forces of capitalism and vested interests?

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2024, 05:30:56 pm
content: Quote from: SteveThackery on August 13, 2024, 05:27:24 pmTo be fair, engineers have to take the wind very seriously when designing tall buildings. The main reason skyscrapers don't get damaged in high winds is that engineers know their jobs and design them carefully to avoid problems like resonance. Also, the wind delivers a power level far in excess of anything a human device could apply to the building.

author: SteveThackery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2024, 05:34:26 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on August 13, 2024, 05:26:24 pmTesla made no claims about bridges, as far as I've read. He specifically claimed he could demolish a building with a device he could hold in his hand. In the last days of his life he claimed he had such a device in storage. When the box was opened up after he had died, it contained.... dammit, I can't remember, but it was just a normal piece of lab equipment - a voltmeter, or something like that.The energy input to that bridge was somewhat beyond anything a hand-sized device could deliver!

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2024, 05:35:16 pm
content: Quote from: SteveThackery on August 13, 2024, 05:27:24 pmI do know that many really big skyscrapers usetuned-mass dampersto prevent wind from causing resonant oscillations that could lead to “unscheduled disassembly” of the structure. So the principle of buildings being excited to a damaging resonant frequency is real, and seemingly understood by engineers.

author: SteveThackery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2024, 05:39:35 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on August 13, 2024, 05:30:56 pmYep, I wouldn't dispute any of that. As far as I know, it's steel-framed buildings that will vibrate at a resonant frequency, and such buildings employ internal dampers to reduce the vibration. As you say, we are a very long way from demolishing a building with a hand-sized device.I mentioned it in the first place to illustrate my claim that Tesla seemed to have to conception of damping and energy losses in a system. It is a strange blind spot to have.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2024, 05:43:17 pm
content: QuoteHammer and chisel?

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2024, 05:44:54 pm
content: Quote from: SteveThackery on August 13, 2024, 05:34:26 pmI know. I was just pointing out there was a much better example to pick when illustrating the dangers of resonance in man-made structures.

author: SteveThackery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2024, 05:45:11 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on August 13, 2024, 05:35:16 pmOf course it is and I haven't disputed that. Such resonance requires an energy input way beyond anything a little device the size of a kilogram packet of sugar could deliver. That's because of the losses involved; I mentioned it to illustrate that he didn't seem to understand losses and damping.

author: SteveThackery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2024, 05:46:18 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on August 13, 2024, 05:44:54 pmTotally - and we are in agreement.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2024, 05:49:54 pm
content: Quote from: themadhippy on August 13, 2024, 05:43:17 pmWell, Fred Dibnah demolished large industrial chimneys with a hammer and chisel, so it is not impossible. (Sometimes the surrounding infrastructure did not allow a chimney to be demolished by dynamite or making it fall over. So it had to be taken down brick by brick.)

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2024, 05:52:57 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on August 13, 2024, 05:15:14 pmNor is what others are describing in this thread or any discussion where Edison and Tesla come up in.The point is that probably ancient Greeks had some sort of rotating magnets with their battery.Meanwhile these guys were the fist creators of electric railways and transformers that you could actually order.And Edison also had a company that still makes... Airplane turbines apparently.

author: SteveThackery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2024, 05:53:27 pm
content: MODERATORSAlthough I'm enjoying this, we are at risk of running another thread about the miracles and magic Tesla could do (according to his 21st century fan club), which I'm not sure is appropriate for EEVblog.I'm mindful of this and feel I should stop here. There are plenty of other forums more suitable for this nonsense.PS: the OP still needs to apologise for accusing the moderator of lying. That was a pretty bad slur.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2024, 06:02:03 pm
content: Quote from: SteveThackery on August 13, 2024, 05:45:11 pmI wasn’t saying anything about palm-size devices. You said you couldn’t think of any energy source other than earthquakes, and I pointed out that wind is a real-world source of destruction-level resonances (or would be, if we didn’t mitigate that effect).

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 13, 2024, 06:02:35 pm
content: Quote from: DejanC on August 13, 2024, 04:09:24 pmDid you look at the video? no of course not. Instead of your rage how about some formulated opinion?Tesla was a charlatan, end of. anyone invoking his name like a god is an even bigger chalatan, at least tesla had the fucking balls to be original. Now quit winging about reality or get the fuck out!

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2024, 06:08:01 pm
content: And before the thread gets locked, there is of course a problem with the word "invention" as used, for example, with patents.To a sufficiently advanced mind, one familiar with all the physical laws of the world, every conceivable device is "obvious". Any such device is simply a solution to a problem, and when faced with such a problem, it is pretty obvious how to make something that solves it. Therefore, if there are many people simultaneously encountering a given need or problem, they will all be likely to solve it in a similar way.The whole legal theory of patents is that most people are not very intelligent, and so when a "smart" person devises a gadget that does something useful, it looks to everyone else like a miracle, and worthy of special regard.Today, patent law operates like the system of mining claims. Whoever first sticks a stake in the ground and makes a claim, their claim is given legal protection. Which leads to the ludicrous situation today where patent filers make claims about anything and everything, just so they can prevent other people claiming the same thing.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2024, 06:08:12 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on August 13, 2024, 06:02:35 pmWell I don’t think that’s a reasonable interpretation, and certainly nothing you can say “end of” to, since that’s an opinion, not a fact.As I said above:Quote from: tooki on August 13, 2024, 04:31:35 pmAnd as SteveThackery beautifully worded above:Quote from: SteveThackery on August 13, 2024, 05:10:53 pmQuote from: Simon on August 13, 2024, 06:02:35 pmI will also add that, as a moderator, we kind of expect a bit more professionalism than this post exhibits. I can understand your frustration, but as a moderator, this tone looks bad.

author: DejanC
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2024, 06:17:07 pm
content: QuoteExactly!If he was a charlatan, why did we name an SI-unit after him? Why was he allowed to give lectures to other electrical engineers? If he was a charlatan, how did he have so many inventions we still use today: radio, x-rays, induction motor, tesla transformer?

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2024, 06:23:14 pm
content: Quote from: themadhippy on August 13, 2024, 05:43:17 pmVery funny but that has nothing to do with resonance and instant collapse after excitation. Just taking a long time (depending on the size of the building) to chip away at the base of the building before it tips over.With resonance a structure reaches a point where the amplitude of the vibration surpasses what the structure can withstand. Similar to electronics, were a resonant circuit can become over excited and destroys itself.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2024, 06:27:03 pm
content: Quote from: DejanC on August 13, 2024, 06:17:07 pmI explained that above in my post about patents. At the time, in the late 19th century, when there was burgeoning interest in the industrial applications of electricity, many people were going to discover (discover, not invent) those things, and many people did. They would have been independently discovered at different times by scientists, engineers and entrepreneurs exploring the fascinating new world of electricity.

author: DejanC
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2024, 06:28:05 pm
content: QuoteOk so independently discovering these things makes him a charlatan really? That's the claim.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2024, 06:30:44 pm
content: Quote from: pcprogrammer on August 13, 2024, 06:23:14 pmSometimes you have to start at the top and work down, brick by brick, so it doesn't fall over:

author: DejanC
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2024, 06:31:43 pm
content: Take a look around the 47 minute mark...

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2024, 06:39:37 pm
content: Quote from: DejanC on August 13, 2024, 06:17:07 pmYou are just running around in the same circle until we all agree that you are right. Sorry but I don't see that happening. It is in your perception that he was a great inventor, and in the perception of others he was just a smart guy who came up with very interesting things, but also was a bit weird.You mention radio but forget that Guglielmo Marconi is cited as being the inventor of the radio. Wilhelm Roentgen is cited as the person who discovered x-rays. Need I go on.As written by others in this thread a lot of "inventions" were made at more or less the same time by different people across the world. Many so called modern inventions were already known of in ancient times. Think of the Chinese, the Romans, the Greeks, the Moors, etc.For instance concrete has been seen used in Roman structures, but the methodology was forgotten about for many centuries to only be rediscovered as a very strong building material.See my first response to your original post and think about that.

author: SteveThackery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2024, 06:43:54 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on August 13, 2024, 06:02:03 pmAh, OK - thanks.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2024, 06:46:49 pm
content: Quote from: DejanC on August 13, 2024, 06:31:43 pmFor anyone region-blocked, the MythBusters used a small vibrating weight to find a resonant frequency of a bridge. But nothing happened:Quote

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2024, 06:47:19 pm
content: Quote from: DejanC on August 13, 2024, 06:31:43 pmAnd it is busted. Yes they can make the structure vibrate with the linear actuator, but not to an extend that the bridge collapses. So it does not prove your point.

author: DejanC
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2024, 06:58:53 pm
content: Ok you are right guys. He was a complete charlatan....yet he invented valves, turbines, generators, motors, systems of communication, etc.It all makes perfect sense.The author of the publication referenced in this article was also a charlatan:https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidbressan/2020/01/07/nikola-teslas-earthquake-machine/

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2024, 07:02:12 pm
content: To me charlatan is unproven, because that implies that he knew that some of the ideas he was peddling were malarkey. My personal opinion is that he was a very bright guy, who invented some important things, most notable the 3 phase electric motor and the Tesla coil. But somewhere along the line he lost it and started peddling things that couldn't do what he claimed. Whether desperation for money and fame or simple lack of understanding underlay that is beyond my ability to discern.What irritates me about the Tesla cultists, and other similar groups (the Africans invented everything group is one other example, but there are quite a few of them) is a demonstrated lack of understanding of the things they are claiming.Example: Tesla invented remote control. In one sense you can claim that. The cultists see a radio controlled model airplane or a drone doing complicated maneuvers and say "Yeah my favorite genius, Tesla, invented that over 100 years ago. But what he did was implement a couple of simple commands (stop/go or turn/don't turn) in a boat, over a range of a couple of dozen meters. Nothing that couldn't also have been done with a couple of target paddles and a BB gun and which perhaps already had been done by any of several methods. The remote control of today is the result of literally dozens more inventions by a similarly large number of people. And while I believe that Tesla in his early years was bright enough to have comprehended all of those inventions, I also believe most of them were beyond his imagination.A final comment. Before anyone uses patents as a demonstration of intelligence they need to go read a few hundred sequential patents. There are an incredible number of patents that are incredibly stupid. Most of these stay on the books because no one cares enough to challenge them. The patent on the PC which I believe was successfully challenged is by far not the dumbest patent I have seen. The patent claim was that putting a microcomputer board together with a display, floppy disk storage device and keyboard was an invention.

author: SteveThackery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2024, 07:03:02 pm
content: Quote from: DejanC on August 13, 2024, 06:31:43 pmWhat?!! Now you take a look around the 48m 30s mark. "This ain't no earthquake."So they set up a source of vibration and discovered that at certain frequencies a steel structure (a bridge in this case) will transmit the vibration over a hundred feet (or was it hundreds of feet? Whatever.)So what? It isn't the least bit surprising. It's made from steel, which is a pretty elastic material.The crucial point is that the vibrations did not build up until the structural integrity was threatened.Tesla got it wrong! It behaved exactly as any modern day engineer would predict: the amplitude of the vibrations built up until the damping inherent in all structures extracted as much energy as the machine was putting in, and at that point equilibrium was reached. No demolition. Even after an hour.The fact that you think the video somehow supports your claim speaks volumes about your lack of critical thinking. It's like you want to believe; like the mindset of a person searching for God to give them a meaning to their life.You should leave this field to the physicists and engineers, who are intimately familiar with all the phenomena we've been discussing. No need for Tesla's input on this one.

author: Xena E
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2024, 07:05:07 pm
content: Who invented what?Ask a Brit who invented TV... then ask an American... then ask, I dunno, a Russian...3 different answers I'll bet.That millenium bridge became unstable because of the simple fact that people who walk in a line will tend to do so largely in step, that was friggin' tonnes of humans swaying from side to side, if you've ever walked across a propper rope bridge you will know how unnerving the effect is...You need to be in fear of the discoverer of the brown note, he will really make you shit yourself. (Laughing probably).https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brown_notehttps://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla%27s_oscillator

author: SteveThackery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2024, 07:07:31 pm
content: Quote from: CatalinaWOW on August 13, 2024, 07:02:12 pm^^^^^THIS! ^^^^^CatalinaWOW has totally nailed it. That is exactly what I think, and it is by far the most reasonable and believable interpretation of the history.

author: hans
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2024, 07:10:20 pm
content: But that also depends on the structure. Which makes both arguments a bit moot.You could model such a resonant device as a LC tank with some value Q. Infinite Q does not exist, which means you'll need to keep adding some energy to keep the resonance going. If we keep inputting the same amount of power, then eventually it will settle on some equilibrium where the resonant energy will accumulate but also limit because of the finite Q.That mythbusters clip shows that bridge won't collapse, but the relatively small weight is able to induce vibrations across a much heavier structure, which is impressive.But an earthquake? No way. I'm not a mechanical engineer, but I doubt many structures will ever reach such a high Q for that to happen. Not without inputting a ton of power (which Tesla said he didn't need)

author: DejanC
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2024, 07:12:48 pm
content: He didn't "lose it" anywhere along the line. He stayed sharp mentally until his last days. There's a reason only SOME of his unpublished work and papers were released to the general public! If it was all malarkey and non-sense, all of it would have been released!https://www.history.com/news/nikola-tesla-files-declassified-fbi

author: SteveThackery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2024, 07:24:26 pm
content: Quote from: DejanC on August 13, 2024, 07:12:48 pmAnd there we have it! It's all a conspiracy!!Also, a non sequiteur: nobody said it wasallmalarkey and nonsense. Most of the posts in this thread saysomeof his claims are malarkey and nonsense.

author: DejanC
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2024, 07:25:25 pm
content: QuoteDid you not read the OP? The moderator said he was a charlatan, end of discussion!!!

author: SteveThackery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2024, 07:34:59 pm
content: Quote from: hans on August 13, 2024, 07:10:20 pmExactly! Q is a measure of the ratio between energy added and energy stored in the oscillating body. Equilibrium is reached when the energy lost per cycle to damping forces is equal to to the energy added per cycle. The higher the Q, the lower the losses, so the higher the final amplitude. And as hans says, Q can never reach infinity (zero damping forces). All oscillatory inputs eventually result in equilibrium, the amplitude of which depends on the Q value and the input power. As you can see, the physics and mathematics are totally bottomed out and boringly routine. There are no mysteries to be found here.This is the fundamental principle that Tesla seemed unable to grasp.

author: RoGeorge
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2024, 07:46:16 pm
content: Quote from the closed topic (Simonwrote):https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/teslas-radiant-energy-experiments/msg5599659/#msg5599659QuoteSimon, the lady in your linked video is debunking the cult of Tesla, and the urban legends about Tesla (she's ranting abouther misunderstandings, she says that at the end, with her own words as the conclusion of her video):QuoteSee? She's praising Tesla. She was angry ranting because she fell for the urban legends. Then you fell for the emotional content of that video, didn't register the words, and extrapolated your emotional overload to a dead wrong conclusion: no evidence Tesla invented anything.Tesla does have many patents (and by the way, she didn't say that there were no Tesla inventions). Look how long the list of Tesla patents is:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Nikola_Tesla_patentsSaying Tesla didn't invent anything would make anybody look foolish. You can find those patents scanned as PDF from Google Patents. Do you really believe Tesla stolen all those patents? Don't fall for the emotional message only, double check.And for the arguments that patents doesn't have to work, well, at least one works, my favorite one, the Tesla Turbine.It's a brilliantly simple design, a turbine with no fins, made out of a flat disc. It is reversible, and can also be used as a pump:https://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/97/2c/df/6f9d46acc4fb80/US1061206.pdfVery easy to DIY:How To Make The Ten Minute Tesla TurbineRobert Murray-Smith(later edit, replaced the strikeout 10mins video with the following 5 mins video that has explanations of how it works, pros and cons):How Fast Can a Tesla Turbine Spin?The Action Labhttps://youtube.com/watch?v=DLKE_DbUdRgJust to make my position clear, many of the today urban legends about Tesla are just that, legends. I don't endorse them. Whoever has had the curiosity to read anything written by Tesla, would notice Tesla was between genius and madness. No wonder there are misunderstandings.But patents are patents. That'sphysical evidenceTesla was an inventor.

author: SteveThackery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2024, 07:59:06 pm
content: The Wikipedia article on Tesla's turbine is very poor, because certain crucial claims and explanations are not adequately referenced.However, from what I can make out, the Tesla turbine was better than the early bladed turbines of the day. But bladed turbine technology improved enormously over the following years and decades, whereas Tesla's turbine did not: it was pretty much as good as it could be from day one.The reason it isn't widely used today is that it simply isn't that good. Reasonable efficiency but not up with the best, reasonable performance, but the speed drops off precipitously with load. I've played with one: it's an interesting novelty and a clever idea. I think it showed that Tesla was good at "thinking outside of the box".His one way pneumatic valve - with no moving parts - is another example of thinking outside the box. Like the turbine, it's ingenious; like the turbine, it doesn't work that well. I accept that there are probably a few, rare, use cases for both. But that's all.

author: DejanC
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2024, 08:02:03 pm
content: QuoteSo, not a charlatan, then?

author: Doctorandus_P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2024, 08:14:09 pm
content: I don't care much who invented what. Inventions quite often happen when the time is there for them to be invented. It is quite common that people in different parts of the world and independent of each other do the same inventions.It's also why I very much dislike patents. I had a short look through tesla's patents, but they mostly look like small variations of the same. I have invented many things that upon a short search had been patented at some time. I am not completely opposed to patents. They do have some application in giving people a chance to put money into commercializing an idea and earning some money with that, but the amount of patents about completely trivial nonsense shows it is a very bad system the way it is implemented now. Patents are hardly suited for anything else than to keep the pockets of the patent office people filled

author: DejanC
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2024, 08:17:15 pm
content: Point being....Tesla was NOT a charlatan. A scientist and engineer of the highest order.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2024, 08:23:21 pm
content: I just assumed this was a case of a troll being trolled, and not by me for a change.***From 2020.https://www.eevblog.com/forum/dodgy-technology/tesla-files-(sbs)/msg3164680/#msg3164680Quote

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2024, 08:53:57 pm
content: Quote from: Doctorandus_P on August 13, 2024, 08:14:09 pmIt is an unfair system with the costs involved esp. the yearly incrementing fees it is a system for big companies against individuals and small companies. The only thing I like is the open publication, sharing the invention to be used by others (after 20 years).

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 13, 2024, 09:00:52 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on August 13, 2024, 06:08:01 pmYou can thank Marconi, another charlatan that simply connected up other peoples inventions and patented the lot as his own. Since then everyone went nuts and patented just about any discovery they could for fear of another Marconi jerk. Most of our history is factually wrong, as you say, the first guy with an advantage patents it even though it's damn right obvious to any intelligent person.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 13, 2024, 09:02:22 pm
content: Quote from: DejanC on August 13, 2024, 07:12:48 pmSo you are a conspiracy theorist, I think that is where we left of with the other thread?

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 13, 2024, 09:12:44 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on August 13, 2024, 06:08:12 pmYou see the problem here is context. I closed a thread with those statements that was about a woo woo free energy device or some such junk with the author claiming tesla links. He has now come back to have his revenge by quoting me out of context. So what is the thread about? whether or not I was justified in closing a thread with numerous reports because it was junk science or is it a new debate about tesla?The OP has already outed himself as a tesla idol so he won't believe anything but what he wants to.And yes that is my opinion of Tesla, as has been said no one will properly know. If you actually watch the whole video cathy did (and I thought it was longer so maybe there is another) she politely puts to bed every bit of misinformation and corrects after researching the ORIGINAL documents all of the crap. No she did not call him a charlatan, the woman does not want death threats after all from the tesla sycophant's. But if you want to make a statement about tesla then back it up with facts!The OP says he was sharp until the end.... The end was that he lived of donations from fans was in love with a pigeon and lived in hotel after hotel as he failed to pay the bill and moved on. Does the OP have any more "facts" to share?

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2024, 09:13:00 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on August 13, 2024, 06:02:35 pmTesla got some things right, and convinced the world. He also got some things wrong, and failed to convince the world.Isaac Newton also did that.Linus Pauling also did that.Etc etc etc also did that.Would you therefore claim they are charlatans too?

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 13, 2024, 09:14:02 pm
content: No Tesla was different, nothing like your list

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2024, 09:20:32 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on August 13, 2024, 09:00:52 pmI think you misunderstand how science works.The creditnevergoes to the person who has the idea. The credit goes to the person whoconvincesother people that the idea is valid.Ditto business and engineering; the credit goes to the person/company that implements something.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2024, 09:23:14 pm
content: I saw a ball lighting thingy from a broken appliance so I believe that tesla is not lying that he knew how to make it, or at least he knew what can make it under bizarre conditions.The claims are numerous but I believe that oneI think they got involved in some kinda spy stuff, it was around the time the similarities were really going to go into radio and they must have felt that war is on the horizon. Keep in mind this was before the time the magnetron, a formerly top secret super weapon device, is used to heat low quality frozen food for people with little money. They must have had all sorts of pressure and paranoia. He had some kinda secret spy pidgeons, which seems crazy now, but back then people in new york were worried about german frogmen incursions and all kinds of noir spy stuff . All that radio stuff was top secret as hell.This would just be considered a HAM super project, but in ww2 it got raided by over 100 commandos in a strategic level operationhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_BitingI think times changed into one where we get more advanced technology faster as civilians because of the geopolitical situation of the world, where GDP is kind of more important then just having super duper armed forces. People figured out that generally having a stronger economy is better then having secrets in the long run.. the idea is to stay on top.. so you get better security if you leverage most of your inventions for financial prosperity rather then keep them compartmentalized. I am not sure they had the same view 100 years ago which leads to difficulty in understanding the circumstances of ancient inventors like tesla.ANd I think because of how crude their systems were, they felt that anyone can just get into it easily if they know. Today with the refined technologies, its difficult to get into something without alot of money and also difficult to get into something secret, because you probobly have to work with several hundred multinational suppliers to do anything freaky... kind of like iraq... they kept getting busted for buying crazy hardware for their advanced military projects (babylon gun, centerfuge, etc).... it was easy to spy on them... but tesla inventions were like "yeah bend this element around another element like this and put it on a pole"....I think the reason why continuing his work is so interesting is because its so accessible.. and we end up getting high precision objects that can be used for his designs from other sources (i.e. hard drive platters for his motor).Some researchers practically don't care about secrecy because they basically know "well they will have to build numerous breeder reactors, acquire 5000kg of ceasium, etc... to even get into this work".. and the operation is so god damn big its not possible to keep it a secret, because its like involving 100k people.... they basically know someone MIGHT try to copy it but its like up to the state department to fix that

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 13, 2024, 10:20:29 pm
content: There's a bit to unpack here and I haven't watched the video in the other thread. I just woke up and it's pre-coffee, so I might do that later."Lie" is a strong word. Lie implies that someone has intentionally made a statement, knowing it is false. Some flat earthers lie, others simply believe the lie.We as moderators try to moderate fairly and apply the rules consistently. Opinions do come into that judgement sometimes and since each of us are different people, we'll handling things slightly differently, even if we're mostly on the same page.The same happens in the real world. When I was pulling people over and giving people traffic tickets back in-the-day, would I apply the rule of the law the same for everyone? Of course not. I gave some people tickets and some people were given warnings for the same offence. A lot of nuance comes into play and very rarely do you find situations where rules are applied in a black and white manner.My general rule is, as long as you aren't spamming, being malicious or deliberately abusing or insulting people (i.e.: Being a dick), then say what you want on this forum, even if it's wrong, crazy, sceptical or unpopular. I believe everyone should have the right to say (and post) most things. I don't think I can be more fair than that.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2024, 10:31:41 pm
content: Quote from: Halcyon on August 13, 2024, 10:20:29 pmHave you read anything from Simon?

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2024, 10:40:36 pm
content: Quote from: themadhippy on August 13, 2024, 03:55:57 pmYou can find multiple references about Steve Jobs doing exactly that.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 13, 2024, 11:00:59 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on August 13, 2024, 10:31:41 pmTo be honest, no, I don't read much of what he write. We have different interests.

author: moffy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2024, 01:09:47 am
content: The accusation of lying implies a deliberate and considered act to deceive, which means the person must know that what they are stating is false. I personally cannot read minds and unless the OP can the OP cannot know what the moderator actually thinks, personally I think he believes what he is stating, but that is just an opinion.

author: DejanC
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2024, 01:36:07 am
content: Lying is not about intention, but about the truth. He did not tell a truth, but a falsehood. Therefore, he lied. Can't know someone's intention with just a post.

author: moffy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2024, 01:43:03 am
content: Quote from: DejanC on August 14, 2024, 01:36:07 amNo, lying is about intention, a person may spread what they believe to be the truth even thought it is a lie, in such a case they have been deceived. In this case you are not only accusing the moderator of lying, deliberate deception, but also the maker of the video that he posted as evidence. The best way to deal with a lie, is in detail, go through each of the detailed points in the video and show that they are false and deliberately deceptive.

author: radiolistener
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2024, 01:49:58 am
content: Quote from: DejanC on August 13, 2024, 03:26:29 pmThe Tesla is just a respected and known engineer and scientist in honor of which is named the magnetic flux density measurement unit (Tesla).It's sad to see that some peoples using his name to attribute him invention of different kind of dodgy-technology like free-energy and esoteric abilities, I think such peoples are real sectarians. And even more sad that other peoples thinking that he is charlatan just because they thinking he is really has something common with all this free-energy bullshit.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 14, 2024, 01:59:51 am
content: Quote from: Kjelt on August 13, 2024, 04:03:44 pmYes. If you think they are wrong then discuss and explain why they are wrong, don't start a new thread called "How are moderators allowed to lie?"

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 14, 2024, 02:15:36 am
content: Quote from: DejanC on August 14, 2024, 01:36:07 amLying is absolutely about intention. It's the definition of the word. You can be incorrect without telling a lie.

author: radiolistener
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2024, 02:40:34 am
content: Quote from: Doctorandus_P on August 13, 2024, 08:14:09 pmYes, it seems that almost all known scientists had different kind of disputed authorship of certain inventions. And even more, often some inventions are mistakenly attributed to the person who didn't invented it.When you read their works more deep, trying to understand how it was invented, it usually appears that things was invented in very different way than usual books telling us. Often the book says that some known scientist suddenly and randomly invented some great thing from nothing. But actually it appears that many scientists worked on the same problem and when you get to know the context, it's obvious that the idea was just floating in the air and at some point it become so obvious that almost anyone can invent it by knowing previous research context.So it is not surprising that many inventions took place almost simultaneously at different places and by different peoples. And not surprising that real authorship of many inventions are not persons that we know. It was possible that we even don't know the author of the original idea. We just know when some known person shared some idea, but don't know who is the original author and how it happens.

author: DejanC
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2024, 03:12:32 am
content: It's a lie and deceptive because the thread was locked after making a statement that was false. He posted a video and said he was a charlatan. He knows he has many inventions, yet claims he is a charlatan....so that's a lie! If you are dumb enough to think a charlatan can make 200+ patents and not get challenged on it in the 1900s then you shouldn't be a moderator.Free energy wise, there were many inventions he did not disclose publicly and he made many statements on how the universe is full of energy. So just like solar, Hydro, wind, etc. We can tap into the very fabric of spacetime to gather and use the energy of the so-called "quantum vacuum", which is just a euphemism of the rejected ether (which Tesla also referenced). The proof of this, before any invention, is the Casimir effect. If that doesn't blow your mind as to what is possible and the fundamental truth that energy is all around us in infinite amounts, nothing will.

author: KerimF
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2024, 03:32:33 am
content: May I add my 2 cents.Please let us be realistic and rational.Don’t you agree that any of the well-known inventors was serving some rich families (a big company for example) or whose family was rich?I mean, I wish I hear someday of a known inventor which was an independent ordinary person (not rich or working for a rich family).I will give below a real example/fact about myself.John P. Costas, at General Electric, discovered what is known as Costas Loop (a PLL DSB-SC demodulator).45 years ago, I had the chance to discover a simpler and more reliable DSB-SC demodulator (also based on PLL and I personally took advantage of it in my short-range private RF links). Lately, whenever I presented it to some others on the internet, I called it 'Harmonic Loop' because I (75-year-old now) know already that it is out of question to be called 'Kerim Loop'After all, I never needed to serve a rich family (company) or was rich myself. But, sooner or later, someone else (Mr. X) will patent it and it will be taught at universities besides Costas Loop and Squaring Loop.For instance, I personally have no reason to complain in any way or discuss who invented this or that because the kingdom I am looking for is not of this world.Best wishes to all,Cheers, Kerim

author: Buriedcode
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2024, 04:06:34 am
content: DejanC,Didn't you start a thread with a video of a dubious interpretation of something, then proceeded to insult anyone who replied with something other than agreement? I mean, I'm not sure what you expected.This is an electronics forum -engineering- we deal with stuff we can measure and people here are generally very practical. So even if that video had any validity, did you expect a bunch of engineers to nod sagely and discuss potential "new physics" ? What did you want to get out of it?Honestly it just looked like you wanted to sing the praises of your hero, and got upset when people didn't. And now you've created another thread about being upset.Whilst any "Tesla bashing" might seem extreme, you have to realise that there have been many Tesla-Fan-boys making odd over blown claims about him, who are also part of the "free energy" crowd - and that includes conspiracy theorists and scam artists. That doesn't mean to say Tesla didn't do important work, or that all Tesla fans are in those groups, but it has primed certain members to roll their eyes every time hisname comes up. And frankly, your reaction has only served to confirm these biases - you started a thread about tesla, people disagreed, so you insulted them - so I'm not sure what kind of reaction you expected.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 14, 2024, 05:32:55 am
content: Quote from: Buriedcode on August 14, 2024, 04:06:34 amVery often these Telsa / "new physics" enthusiasts have been booted out of every other engineering or physics forum, so not surprising when they reply in anger at getting pushback here too.We allow this stuff here provided you don't get upset and start attacking people. But I don't know a single one that has stayed and "played nice", they all end up eventually getting banned because they fly off the rails or they leave in protest because no one is validating them.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 14, 2024, 05:53:34 am
content: Quote from: DejanC on August 14, 2024, 03:12:32 amWhich no one, absolutely no one has shown you can get any usable energy from.As I said in the Ashton Forbes thread today:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/dodgy-technology/ashton-forbes-over-unity-challenge/msg5604095/#msg5604095It's not rocket science to get your Nobel prize and fortune and glory, just sit yourself in an empty room with no cords with your magic woo-woo machine running a computer and say a bar heater and then live stream the whole thing for a week using that computer.

author: RoGeorge
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2024, 06:38:15 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on August 14, 2024, 01:59:51 amThere was no way to discuss or explain.Simonwrote Tesla is a charlatan that didn't invent anything, then the topic was locked.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2024, 07:16:21 am
content: Quote from: RoGeorge on August 14, 2024, 06:38:15 amWell, to use the Australian (as well as other countries) expression."Don't be a Dick".The locked thread went to 6 pages, and the OP, (my remembered impression of the thread, possibly mistaken) still hadn't answered a single question, even simple/basic ones.Except to say, with every reply, something on the lines of "Tesla is a saint, all hail saint Tesla, how dare you even slightly disagree with him, what is wrong with free-energy, anyway".They also, seemed to indicate (at least what I picked up on, but I could easily be mistaken), that they have had at least one previous account on here, which I presume, has been (permanently?) banned.EDIT: Specifically, one or more posters, hinted at past activities here, and the OP, did not seem to disagree.

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2024, 07:56:04 am
content: Quote from: RoGeorge on August 14, 2024, 06:38:15 amThis has been addressed in this thread as being a bit shady, and makes it understandable a new thread has been started. Questioning all moderators being allowed to lie is also a bit shady and indeed is it a lie when you firmly believe it to be true. It is all about perception.DejanC his perception is that Tesla is the greatest inventor of all times and Simon his perception is that he is a charlatan. The "truth" will most likely be in the middle, but non of us was alive and in the direct vicinity of Tesla when he was alive so all our perceptions are based on what others have written. And we all know how stories can change when passed on from one person to another.Quote from: DejanC on August 14, 2024, 01:36:07 amThis is a clear statement from a person who only sees black and white. Again it is about perception and understanding human nature. Lying always has to do with personal gain or protection and thus intention. Being convinced of something to be true, even while knowing there are other opinions out there, does not make you a liar. Certainly in this case Simon has nothing to gain from this, in your eyes, lie.And based on your own statement we could also see you as a liar, because we are not convinced that your perception it true.Quote from: DejanC on August 14, 2024, 03:12:32 amAnd again you keep running around in circles.The claim about the large amount of patents does not bare a lot of weight here, since others already pointed out that a lot of these patents bare no meaningful inventions.CatalinaWOWwrote it down perfectly to show the middle ground about Tesla. Not your and Simon's black and white vision, but a more realistic view on the matter.Quote from: DejanC on August 14, 2024, 03:12:32 amAs with a lot of the other views on free energy there is the issue with scale. Sure there is a lot of energy in the universe, but the problem is with capturing it in such a manner that useful work can be done with it. Solar energy is a form that allows us to do this. Is it free, sure technically speaking the energy itself is free. Harvesting it on the other hand is not. You need photovoltaic panels to convert it to electricity or a solar thermal collector to get warm water from it. These devices don't last forever so there are costs involved.There is mention of the Tesla turbine in this thread, and while brilliant in its design, scaling it up makes it less efficient and thus somewhat useless.You always have to look at the bigger picture of things, and acknowledge value where it is, but also dismiss it where it is not. Grey, not black and white.As a side not, nationalism is also mentioned in this thread, and a nice phenomenon here is how this works with international sports events. When a team or individual from a country wins, the fans go "We won the match", but when they loose it is "They lost".

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2024, 08:04:31 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on August 14, 2024, 01:59:51 amI agree that DejanC's choice of the present thread title was bad. But also agree with what others have said about Simon's behaviour in the original thread: Making a highly opinionated post on the topic and then immediately closing the thread is not acceptable, and is an abuse of the moderator's powers."Moderation" implies balance and restraint. Bringing things to a head and then making sure you have the last word is the opposite of moderation.

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2024, 08:05:55 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on August 14, 2024, 05:53:34 amExactly.We even have a very useful intuitive analog as to why: ambient air pressure here on Earth. You know how hard you have to work to pull a vacuum, so why don't we just use the energy inherent in the air pressure?Energy is indeed all around us in large but finite amounts. The problem is converting it into more useful forms. It is not only an engineering problem, but also one constrained by the physically observable phenomena: just because we'd like some potential energy to convert to say kinetic energy, does not make it happen. There must be a suitable repeatable physical phenomena for the conversion to occur. None of the experiments Nikola Tesla did showed any such phenomena.I do not agree that Tesla was a charlatan, because for example theTesla turbine, his 100th patent, is an excellent innovation, and has some important specialist use cases.Just because a physical phenomena or experiment can initially appear weird or breaking physical laws, does not make it so. For example, David Swenson of 3M Corporation described in 1995 an anomaly from 1980"where workers encountered a strange "invisible wall" in the area under a fast-moving sheet of electrically charged polypropelene film in a factory. This "invisible wall" was strong enough to prevent humans from passing through. A person near this "wall" was unable to turn, and so had to walk backwards to retreat from it."The actual cause? Static electricity.

author: Xena E
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2024, 08:15:12 am
content: Quote from: MK14 on August 14, 2024, 07:16:21 amIt's a personality type.Anyone investing faith in a individual or an ideology displays the same traits.They want to convert the disbelievers.They use straw man arguments to back their claims.They refuse to present documentary proof, because they can't so they shift the burden of proof to the dissenter.They attack those who continue to dissent.*****Everyone is entitled to their opinions.All historical records are inaccurate.The dead can't be Libelled.That thread needed locking and so does this... it is a waste of drive space.Regards,XEdit typo.

author: DavidAlfa
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2024, 08:18:07 am
content: Tesla didn't invent the electric motor, but the AC induction electric motor?Which is waaay more complicated.

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2024, 08:23:55 am
content: Quote from: ebastler on August 14, 2024, 08:04:31 amI agree. The thread wasobviouslyheading towards being locked, as it progressed only towards negative worth to everyone participating or reading it – less and less likely to lead to useful discussion to anyone as it progressed –, but the way it ended up being locked was a misstep/mistake/error (by Simon).While I've butted heads with Simon myself, I don't think it is a big/significant mistake/error at all; definitely not worth any censure, especially because it is not anirrevocabledecision, nor an unanticipated one. It would be good and important to establish that that should not become a pattern, and that if a moderator participates in a fiery discussion they need to be doubly careful about moderation actions (and if possible, leave the moderation of that particular thread to others).To me, it is very significant that we can actually talk about this like this, openly. It isextremelyrare, in my opinion and experience. And very valuable to me personally.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2024, 08:33:10 am
content: Quote from: Nominal Animal on August 14, 2024, 08:23:55 amDon't forget, that only some of the information, is openly/publicly visible.There can also be moderator reports, moderator/users discussions/communications and other information (e.g. via the server and things). Which can have a significant bearing, on their decisions.I admire the moderators/administrators, who have to do lots of hard work, in short-timescales, and make quick, but sensible decisions, at various times.It is all too easy to criticize their actions, when you can't see all the information.

author: Xena E
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2024, 08:37:49 am
content: Quote from: DavidAlfa on August 14, 2024, 08:18:07 amInteresting... why?

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2024, 08:41:37 am
content: Quote from: MK14 on August 14, 2024, 08:33:10 amIf it matters any, I'm specifically referring to the closing post, and that only, being a misstep/mistake/error, and only a mild one, for the reasons ebastler listed.In simpler terms, maintainingfairnessrequires moderators to avoid mixing heated discussion and moderator actions in the same thread, and especially in the same post.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2024, 08:42:13 am
content: Quote from: MK14 on August 14, 2024, 08:33:10 amI struggle to imagine a back-story which makes this "parting shot, then lock" pattern a good idea. Even if there were, the public perception it creates is a bad one.Nominal Animal said it well: That particular thread was headed to be locked, and I have no issues with Simon's decision to lock it at that point. Also, I have no issues with moderators participating in a discussion, including voicing strong opinions. But the two actions should not be combined, to make a strong and subjective point and then make it final by locking the thread right afterwards. Asking a co-moderator to take over the moderation of threads where one is personally engaged in the argument is the ideal solution, I'd say.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2024, 08:45:32 am
content: Quote from: DejanC on August 14, 2024, 01:36:07 amIn English and American "lie" requires intent to deceive. I don't know about Canuk; do they have a separate dictionary?https://www.dictionary.com/browse/liehttps://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/liehttps://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/liehttps://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/liehttps://www.thefreedictionary.com/lieetc

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2024, 08:53:39 am
content: Quote from: Nominal Animal on August 14, 2024, 08:41:37 amIn some forums (not this one, as I understand it). For each thread (and maybe post), the moderators, have to decide (IIRC), if they are posting as a moderator, or user (which a moderator happens to be both).So, if they are making a comment in the thread, as part of it, no moderator comments or actions, are in that post (perhaps thread).But if they moderate a thread, then they can't put their own opinions or thoughts, into the thread, any more.Some forums, even use different coloured text, to indicate if it is a user comment (black ink, IIRC), or official moderator comment (red and/or bold ink, IIRC).

author: SteveThackery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2024, 08:55:52 am
content: Quote from: DejanC on August 13, 2024, 08:02:03 pmNever said he was. But some of his claims were either fantasies or lies - I don't know if that makes him a charlatan by your definition.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 14, 2024, 09:02:14 am
content: Quote from: RoGeorge on August 14, 2024, 06:38:15 amAnyone, including the OP is free to quote that text and start a new topic called "Was Tesla a fraud" or some such and start a new topic branching off discussing that. If anyone cares, the thread gains traction, if no one cares, the thread dies in the first post.Someone always appears to have "the last word" on any locked topic. But the same argument could be said about any post in the thread and complain "I don't have right of reply because a moderator locked the thread." So I think the "last word" thing is kinda moot.

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2024, 09:05:10 am
content: Quote from: Nominal Animal on August 14, 2024, 08:41:37 amI wholeheartedly agree. I don't think Simon makes a very good moderator because this isn't the first time and won't be the last time when he wants to have a last word on some stupid argument and utilizes thread locking for this purpose. Among others; I have also caught him actually and intentionallylyingin the past as a part of some such ridiculous social games. Basically making false claims about what I did or didn't do, then lock the thread so I can't defend myself, then admit in PM that he was lying, and yet refuse to either unlock the thread or even edit his lies out of this message. Such behavior is frustrating; it is abuse of power; it feels wrong.He is like that, but I don't see it as a huge problem, the problem is quite contained and does not get worse over time, and I still enjoy how this forum works out as a whole, even given that none of us is perfect. In the end, this isn't a democracy, this is privately owned and operated dictatorship and that's OK too.And I have been noticing that some members behave like people behave in dictatorships: praise the dictators. And they are sometimes truly shocked when they see that some otherwise quite sensible people (like myself) donotparticipate in this praise, but instead apply critical thinking.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2024, 09:08:33 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on August 14, 2024, 09:02:14 amI beg to differ. It seems problematic to me if one person has the power toensurethat they, personally, have the last word, and uses that power.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2024, 09:18:48 am
content: Quote from: ebastler on August 14, 2024, 09:08:33 amBut, appearances can be deceptive.When a moderator, has been indicated (e.g. lots of user moderation reports, about an off-the-rails errant thread or similar), to need to close a particular thread.It might be the first time, they have ever posted in that thread, so they may decide to make a closing post, on the subject, after quickly skimming through the thread.So, it doesn't necessarily show any malice on the part of the moderator.It is just their job as moderator, means that they at times, end up making the last post of certain threads.But I do agree, that it would be better, to leave out, anything, that has elements of controversy or opinion, to it, when closing a thread.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2024, 09:25:02 am
content: Quote from: MK14 on August 14, 2024, 09:18:48 amI was not thinking of closing posts along the lines of "This discussion is going nowhere and violates forum rules, so I am locking the thread." That's fine with me, and probably better style than just locking without comment. It's taking a strong and subjective position in the arguments, then locking the thread (as was the case in the Tesla thread), which I am concerned about.

author: Galenbo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2024, 09:26:02 am
content: Quote from: RoGeorge on August 14, 2024, 06:38:15 amHe's doing it again, that guy is a real disgrace for this forum.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2024, 09:31:00 am
content: Quote from: ebastler on August 14, 2024, 09:25:02 amI agree with you, I've been bothered about essentially exactly that phenomenon, at other place(s).E.g. A huge argument thread breaks out, as to which is better, Intel or AMD CPUs.I'm fine for a moderator, to say "This thread has gone off the rails, please stop all the personal attacks. Thread LOCKED".But, I'm not fine, for that same moderator to say "AMD makes the best CPUs by far, long live AMD, thread LOCKED, due to too many arguments".

author: radiolistener
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2024, 09:34:57 am
content: Quote from: SteveThackery on August 13, 2024, 07:24:26 pmI doubt that this is really conspiracy.It looks more like some stupid rumors and speculations with no any evidence, the same as other stupid theories like flat Earth, etc.Quote from: SteveThackery on August 13, 2024, 07:34:59 pmI'm not sure why you decided that he didn't know what is Q-factor?It looks strange that he designed large LC circuits and didn't know that.Some time ago I was reading old archive magazines from the beginning of the last century and was surprised by the fairly good understanding of electromagnetic waves at that time. And regarding Q-factors, I remember article from 1920 magazine about Q-factor for radio-amateurs and it explained it very clear and well understand. Such clear and understandable articles are rare these days. So I doubt that Tesla didn't know that.I am even inclined to believe that people were more educated in the past, although many things were not known then.I suspect that such accusations against Tesla of not understanding physics are the same rumors and speculations.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 14, 2024, 09:43:58 am
content: Quote from: MK14 on August 14, 2024, 09:18:48 amI agree, and I try not to do that, but if I said I've never done it, I'd probably be lying.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2024, 09:44:12 am
content: Quote from: Siwastaja on August 14, 2024, 09:05:10 amAt certain times, the moderators/administrators, have to act like parents/headmasters/Policemen/judges, and carry out, what might appear wrong/unpleasant to some members, certain actions.Such as closing threads, that might be popular to some or banning a member, who may still have some members, who like them.But that is part of the life (duties) of a moderator. In the same way, a Policeman might need to take a convicted criminal to prison or a Judge (if the jury agree) may need to find someone guilty of something.As a thought experiment, what would the forum look like in the next 3 months, if all the moderators and administrators, took absolutely no actions at all.I suspect we would either see:"Website unavailable: ERROR 403".Or 1:99% of the threads would be SPAM,Or 2:It would be full of almost everyone, having open flaming wars.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 14, 2024, 09:49:50 am
content: Quote from: ebastler on August 14, 2024, 08:42:13 amSometimes to two action might not be linked. i.e. a timeline like this:- the moderator makes a normal post on the thread- before anyone else replies user reports come in to lock the thread- said moderator checks the posts which he might not have been aware of previously and then decides "yeah this is going nowhere" so then locks the thread, coincidently giving them the last post.I know that's happened to me personally.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2024, 09:54:29 am
content: Personally I don't think Tesla was a charlatan, for the reasons given here:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/how-are-moderators-allowed-to-lie/msg5603895/#msg5603895Neither do I think he was always right; clearly he had mental issues.It is worth glancing (no more!) at the threads the OP has started. They are revealing, IMHO. At least the OP has made a decent number of responses to his OPs, unlike another ex-memberDoes the "DejanC" moniker make people think of the Balkans states?As for moderation, nobody is perfect but "good enough" is sufficient and valuable. Except me, of course. I tried to teach my daughter that, and was most irritated that my parents contradicted me.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 14, 2024, 10:34:25 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on August 14, 2024, 09:49:50 amHappens to me too.

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2024, 10:54:15 am
content: Quote from: ebastler on August 14, 2024, 08:42:13 amIf Simon had refrained from making that last post, I would say yes a perfectly reasonable decision to lock the thread. But definitely not after making that very bold statement and providing the video as fact, without leaving it open to oppose against his and the videos point of view.I second that he should have forked the moderating task over to one of the other moderators and one can only hope that they would have the insight to leave room for response instead of also locking it immediately.I do concur with MK14 that since we don't have access to all the information makes it harder to question the moderators actions. They still do a very good job in my eyes. Anyone who has been in the position of supplying a service to a large group of people knows you never do it well. There is always someone who thinks you fucked up. You just can't please everybody.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2024, 11:00:20 am
content: Quote from: Nominal Animal on August 14, 2024, 08:05:55 amOf course, energy and work are different things. There's lots of energy in the environment, but to make use of it, i.e. perform work, there needs to be an energy difference. It's impossible to extract work from a system which is in equilibrium: same pressure, temperature etc.

author: RoGeorge
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2024, 11:25:27 am
content: Quote from: MK14 on August 14, 2024, 07:16:21 am"You are barking at the wrong tree".I was addressing Simon, for making an injustice and a false accusation to Tesla's legacy, then locking the thread. This is not the first time Simon does that, throwing his own opinion as final, then locking a thread. I don't want to see that turning into a habit. No more, no less.As for the thread that was locked, I didn't follow that thread at all, because I've explained that video already, a year ago, to a user Dejan567, probably the same DejanC.Quote from Dejan567https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/tesla-hairpin-circuit-curious-phenomenon/msg4857980/#msg4857980QuoteAnd my explanation was this:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/tesla-hairpin-circuit-curious-phenomenon/msg4858439/#msg4858439See MK14? You even thanked me for that explanation.To my eyes, there's nothing mysterious or unexplainable in that video. All clear and explainable using no more than high school physics.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2024, 11:34:44 am
content: Whilst I think the criticism of Simon's decision to post a controversial statement, before the thread being locked (assuming he locked it) is valid. Is this the right place to discuss it? Has anyone sent Simon or Dave a private message to discuss the matter? I think that's a more appropriate way to deal with the matter, rather than in the public forum.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2024, 11:43:56 am
content: Quote from: RoGeorge on August 14, 2024, 11:25:27 amI meant that, the decision to lock that thread, was fine and legitimate.As you suggest, leaving an opinion piece at the end, may not be a good idea, if the thread is about to be locked.I'm happy for people to have various opinions about Tesla and the stuff they did.But, if it gets to the point that a person, is so solidly obsessed with Tesla, that they keep on making multiple forum accounts and remaking the same (or very similar) threads, all about the same topic. Moderator action, may be needed.Which if anyone tries to disagree with, their beliefs in the presented video(s) and Tesla, will, instead of being listened to and thought about, then commented.Seems to just get an indignant/obsessive, Tesla was/is right, it has to be wrong. Type of response.I.e. There are forum users (the majority), that we can have useful discussions about stuff with in threads.But there can be a minority, who are so obsessed with their beliefs (such as The Earth is flat, or free-energy machines are already a thing, as their YouTube video, shows free-energy, lighting a light bulb, via some wires, coming from a sealed, so called black-box perpetual motion generator/machine), that a thread can get to 200 pages long and the OP, is still rigidly sticking to their original ideas.

author: DavidAlfa
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2024, 12:14:31 pm
content: Quote from: Xena E on August 14, 2024, 08:37:49 amIsn't the concept of sliding fields more compicsted than a dc motor with conmutator and magnets?

author: Haenk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2024, 12:22:46 pm
content: I consider the lockdown/last post a bit of a "went over the threshhold, enough of this", though a bit undiplomaticly shortcut in the wording.And - to my knowledge (which is of course only "passive reading of books"), the aging Tesla was very short on money and success - and secured further funding by even more (ridiculous) claims, that he did not fulfil, nor was (technically/physically) able to fulfil, ever. This certainly qualifies him as charlatan, IMHO. You could also say he duped investors, commited fraud etc pp.This is very much the reason why I believe Simon was rightfully naming him a charlatan.However there are some inventions of him, that clearly showed his great talent at younger age.Some say he suffered from mental problems, I could believe that.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2024, 12:31:24 pm
content: Quote from: Haenk on August 14, 2024, 12:22:46 pmI can't speak for Simon.But originally, I wondered if they had made that final post, to help the OP, handle their possibly obsessive ideas about Tesla, and see a more balanced view of him.One good thing I can say about Tesla. Most people from that long ago, are long forgotten.Yet, they maintain, quite a presence in peoples minds, even if they may not know why.As with Einstein, Edison, etc.

author: hans
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2024, 12:54:26 pm
content: Quote from: radiolistener on August 14, 2024, 09:34:57 amQuite simply: because the Q factor was introduced by KS Johnson in 1910s and 1920s. It wasn't even first denoted by the letter Q. However this was all done some years after Tesla filled several of his LC oscillator and mechanical oscillator patents. But the Q factor is derived from general (P)DE solutions of some resonant circuits, which were quite well understood at the time. So I'm not saying Tesla wouldn't know his stuff; but for sure he didn't contribute to standardization on all fronts.Instead you could say Tesla was an inventor/innovator, but what doesn't help is he surrounded some of his inventions in mystery. Claiming being able to take down a large building with a small oscillator sounds like bollocks. Maybe buildings from 100 years ago were poorly built, because intuitively a long stretched building will tend to have some resonances in them, however, skyscrapers include dampeners in one of the top floors to absorb standing waves, prevent reflections and thus stop oscillations.I always get instant allergic reactions to mysterious/secretive inventions by cases like "Jan Sloot", that claimed to have a movie compression algorithm which compress a full movie onto a smartcard (8 or 128kB. It turned out not to be really compression algorithm, and >2 decades later it is still a bunch of bollocks.This mystery effect is still used as a teaser by many "big names" of this current era. Just look at the attraction Apple has for their brand or how Musk is (in)famous for turning the "impossible" into late. But if you cut through all this funding/marketing BS, the actual inventive steps are remarkably small.

author: DejanC
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2024, 01:58:01 pm
content: The outrage from multiple users about Simon's past behavior makes me think this is not a coincidence at all. An abuse of power, yet he is mercilessly defended by the owner of the site. Why?If Tesla was defended as much as Simon this thread wouldn't exist. Imagine an all-time great inventor not getting the defense an electronics forum moderator gets!As far as the Casimir effect, just because someone has not been able to manipulate it now does not mean it will always be impossible! The important part about the Casimir effect is it shows WITHOUT DISPUTE, that the vacuum has energy and can perform REAL WORK on REAL SYSTEMS! This is not some thought experiment.Remember when flying was impossible? Or wireless communication? Or room temperature superconductors?

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2024, 02:01:08 pm
content: >> How are moderators allowed to lie?Because they are not being moderated.The real issue is the intolerance to dissenting opinions.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2024, 02:15:16 pm
content: I have been a moderator for another forum for years and tried as much to refrain from hot topics where groups were fighting eachother with words.It is tough to stand on the side and remain objective, and being a moderator is not fun I can tell you because you can never do right for everyone.One of the most underrated non paid assignments I can tell you and so needed esp. on a global forum where posting is going on 24/7.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 14, 2024, 02:21:57 pm
content: Quote from: DejanC on August 14, 2024, 01:58:01 pmI just don't think it's a huge deal. And I don't really care that he seamingly insulted your idol.Simon has been a tireless moderator on this site from the beginning.QuoteIt does not produce any net usable energy. Good luck magically thinking it might suddenly scale up to power your computer.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 14, 2024, 02:25:00 pm
content: Quote from: zapta on August 14, 2024, 02:01:08 pmThe OP was free to start another thread, as he has done here.But given that this thread has basically devolved into attacking a moderator, and everyone has had their say after 5 pages, I'll now lock it. Please take your physics discussions to another thread.