Any suggestion for small FPGA or CPLD in non BGA/CSP/QFN housing - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: prutser
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 20, 2021, 09:36:20 pm
content: It is a pity, FPGAs and CPLDs are getting more affordable, which makes them suitable for using them as glue logic, small CPU peripheral and so on.With microcontrollers we still see many new devices with low in count, low power, but with FPGAs it is going in the opposite direction.Microcontroller and CPU development software is free, manufacturers get their revenue from the product, not the tools. With FPGAs thissometimes seems the other way around. Availability, pricing and licensing scheme of the tools will sometimes drive che choice of the FPGA if there are similar devices to choose from.For a small project I am looking for a large CPLD (or small FPGA) interfacing is serial, an I/O count 24 would be sufficient. Software tools have to be free (Windows)Initially I was opting for a Xilinx Coolrunner device, but it seems Xilinx is dropping Coollrunner. Their ISE Webpack seems not run anymore on Windows, they offer a VM, buta VM I consider a no go for FPGA development. The new software from Xilinx only supports devices starting with Spartan 7, which are only available in BGA.Another option seems Lattice, they have some nice devices, software is 'Diamond' which has a free license. However the free license is 1 year node locked. Thisintroduces the risk that maybe a after a one or more years I won't be able to use the software to perform updates/fixes. So this is also not a preferred option.(I wonder if there are any industrial designers which have to support their products for several years want to use an FPGA with an annual licensing scheme)Then Intel, the MAX10 (seems available in 144 pin QFP) looks like a feasible option.I wonder if someone has any other suggestion (and if there is no market anymore for parts with < 256 pins which can be used on 2 or 4 layer PCBs)

author: tchicago
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 20, 2021, 09:59:42 pm
content: Lattice iCE40UP seems to be a capable 48-pin FPGA, in a QFN package that is pretty easy to mount by hand, and a 2-layer board is sufficient for it. Rather than Diamond, it uses Lattice's Radiant software. It may have a different licensing scheme.I have a couple of these boardshttps://www.tindie.com/products/tinyvision_ai/upduino-v30-low-cost-lattice-ice40-fpga-board/, and besides Radiant, the documentation for this board also points to the open-source path:https://upduino.readthedocs.io/en/latest/. It is a something called "APIO toolchain", which open-source. I have not tried it yet, but planning to.

author: Foxxz
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 20, 2021, 10:04:45 pm
content: https://symbiflow.github.io/https://github.com/enjoy-digital/litexOpen source tools are coming along especially for Lattice devices. Lattice has smaller pin-count devices in QFN packages

author: MadTux
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 21, 2021, 01:31:41 am
content: If small CPLD is all you need, just get a 5$ EPM240 board and use that in the final design, as plugin board or with flat cable to periphery boards.And do the dev stuff on a small FPGA board, since Altera MaxII aparently can only flashed like 100x times, before the flash dies.https://www.ebay.com/itm/MAX-II-EPM240-CPLD-Minimum-System-Core-Development-Board-Module/154267735498FPGA to 2.54mm pin connector boards are available as well, just design dual layer PCB for these, instead for a BGA chip.https://www.ebay.com/itm/1pcs-EP2C5T144-Learning-Board-System-Development-Board-ALTERA-FPGA-CycloneII/183713814541?hash=item2ac632580d:g:PNgAAOSwkmJcfNBDhttps://www.ebay.com/itm/ALTERA-FPGA-Board-EP4CE6-EP4CE6E22C8N-NIOS-II-Altera-Cyclone-IV-Development-Kits/262628289045?epid=1139131818&hash=item3d25ddaa15:g:VRwAAOSwLF1X28R2

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 21, 2021, 02:31:21 am
content: https://store.digilentinc.com/cmod-a7-breadboardable-artix-7-fpga-module/Not a small device nor inexpensive but it would be my choice were I looking for a 'stamp' board format that I could mount to a daughter card for peripherals.You haven't done enough homework on Win 10 and ISE. The latest VM approach is nonsense, all you need to do is rename a couple of files and 14.7 will run perfectly. I'm absolutely certain, I use it from time to time so I know it works.https://www.micro-nova.com/xilinx-ise-win10

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 21, 2021, 06:32:47 pm
content: Quote from: prutser on January 20, 2021, 09:36:20 pmMachXO2 devices are available in QFP packages (for some of them).Regarding licensing, the free license has to be renewed every year, but I think some other vendors have the same policy?It's a non-issue. I have used Lattice Diamond for years and the licensing scheme for the free version has never changed. I never had a single issue renewing the license, it takes 30s.Of course nobody knows what the future holds, but I seriously doubt they would suddenly decide to stop supporting their low-end devices for free. All other vendors do the same. Now for the long term, it may be a problem, at least in theory. I don't know what kind of project you're working on. But if you want to have 100% guarantee of maintanability for the very long term, using open source tools, as others have mentioned, may be the only answer. But as I said, I wouldn't fret too much about it really.

author: MicroBiggerThanMM
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 22, 2021, 03:15:09 am
content: I would second the ICE40 idea. Programming occurs over a simple SPI interface, rather than a $5000 proprietary USB dongle. The QFN packages are really nice. Even though Symbiflow has started to put out the higher end Lattice and Xilinx 7-series P&R options, Those families are in BGA and would cost a fortune to prototype. I've routed a couple of the QFN Lattice ICE40's before and it wasn't too bad. Just toss some 1.2V rails and 0402 caps for the transients and she'll be good. I've noticed DigiKey frequently going into and out of stock on many SKU's, so pick a chip, order it and don't worry about stock since it will get to you eventually.I can't wait for the day when they put out some low density BGA packages where you can easily route them!

author: asmi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 22, 2021, 04:20:21 am
content: Quote from: MicroBiggerThanMM on January 22, 2021, 03:15:09 amSuch dongles are a history for a while now. Even super-high-end Xilinx Lync programmer which supports programming over network (it's basically a Linux machine internally as I understand) is only about $800. I personally use Digilent's HS3 cable for many years for all Xilinx devices, and it's only about $50 and you only ever need a single one (unless you break it, that is).Quote from: MicroBiggerThanMM on January 22, 2021, 03:15:09 amOnly if you don't need a lot of pins and don't really care about signal integrity. Large pin count QFNs are massive pain in the butt, I will take BGA over them any time.Quote from: MicroBiggerThanMM on January 22, 2021, 03:15:09 amThat is no longer the case. 4 layer boards with nice 3.5 mil tracks, 0.2 mm vias and controlled impedance now go for like $7 via JLCPCB, and you can achieve a lot with these tolerances. Even for 6 layer boards there are affordable options, though obviously far away from $7. My last 6 layer boards with 3/3 mil traces and 0.2 mm vias and controlled impedance were about $150 for ten boards, which is not that expensive as BOM cost for a single board is still higher than PCB cost. But still - at this point of time 6 layer is a premium option and is not yet ready for mass adoption. Too bad 6 layer stackup JLCPCB is offering sucks big time for high-speed designs, otherwise it would be a very attractive proposition as well.Quote from: MicroBiggerThanMM on January 22, 2021, 03:15:09 amYou don't need to wait any longer - they are already there. 1 mm pitch BGA-196 package for Spartan-7 devices has been specifically designed to be fully routed out on a 4 layer board without using expensive high-tech PCB processes, and if you take a look at the project in my signature, you will see a good example of it - it has all but 2 user IO pins routed out, 128Mx16 DDR2 interface, HDMI out and a bunch of GPIOs broken out, and board can even run Linux on a Microblaze softcore. If you don't care for DDR memory nor HDMI interface, you can still route out all 100 user IO pins to whatever peripherals you want and use down to the smallest density device in a family. Infact if you only need smaller densities, you won't need nearly as many decoupling caps as I did and can perhaps get away with 0402's which are much easier to solder than 0201's that I've been forced to use for my project.

author: gnuarm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 22, 2021, 04:29:28 am
content: Quote from: prutser on January 20, 2021, 09:36:20 pmThis is a topic that is near and dear to my heart. I've always wanted a line of FPGAs that were equivalent to MCUs in every way, small package, variable I/O count and so package size, small easy to assembly packages and of course, low price. Lattice has always been my go to FPGA vendor for this, but they let me down when they obsoleted a line I was using in a current board. Now I'm looking at a respin so I can continue to supply my customer.Quote from: prutser on January 20, 2021, 09:36:20 pmThe 1 mm 256 pin BGA package is not so hard to route, meaning it doesn't require special design rules on your PWB. 5/5 mil space and trace and 10 mil drills with 24 mil vias (7 mil annular ring) are suitable. That said there are a few Lattice parts that might work for you. You can also take a look at Gowin. They have a number of easy to use packages including a $4 100 pin QFP. Hard to beat that! They have several devices in a 32 or 48 pin QFN including one with an ARM processor!The Gowin synthesis tool is free, but you need to simulate on someone else's free tools. Gowin provides a file for simulation source so you can run the simulation anywhere.Coolrunner parts are ok, but as they get larger they get expensive very fast.Quote from: prutser on January 20, 2021, 09:36:20 pmI use Diamond all the time. You can renew the free license through their web site without contacting a human. They were using the Active HDL simulator from Aldec, but just changed at the first of the year to Modelsim. I don't recall for sure, but you may get a choice of synthesis, Lattice or a name brand (don't recall which one). btw, EVERYONE has the issue of requiring a new license every year, even if you BUY the tools. I bought the Lattice tools some years ago but didn't want to pay the maintenance. After a couple of years of no support I just started using the free tools. The paid for tools still worked (if I downloaded the annual license), but why stick with the old stuff and not have the new features?Quote from: prutser on January 20, 2021, 09:36:20 pmGowin for sure. The 9 kLUT parts are only $4.50 in quantity and have all the nice features. I don't have much use for the QFP144 just because of the monster size. If you don't mind the QFP144 there is a Xilinx part, maybe the Spartan 6? Does Xilinx not support the 6 line in the free tools anymore??? That seems insane. I keep hearing bad reports of Xilinx like this. I bought some stock when the news of the AMD merger came out. The Intel purchase of Altera doesn't seem to have impacted them... yet. I hope the AMD purchase doesn't change Xilinx.

author: asmi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 22, 2021, 04:51:26 am
content: Quote from: gnuarm on January 22, 2021, 04:29:28 amIt does, but only in old ISE, which is pretty much on life support for many years now since they rolled out Vivado, but the latter only supports 7 series and up.

author: gnuarm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 22, 2021, 07:11:06 am
content: Quote from: asmi on January 22, 2021, 04:51:26 amIt's not like they can drop a tool for devices they are still selling. Just like they continue to sell the parts, they need to support people providing maintenance to existing designs. So there's no worry. I bet it's ISE isn't on a ventilator. It's probably just a CPAP machine.

author: MicroBiggerThanMM
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 22, 2021, 11:51:51 pm
content: Time to fire up KiCAD.I've beenat routing these 0.5mm BGA's with JLC's 0.2mm holes and completely lost hope.

author: asmi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 23, 2021, 12:25:35 am
content: Quote from: MicroBiggerThanMM on January 22, 2021, 11:51:51 pmGood luck! If you plan to use Spartan-7 in 196 ball package, you might want to take my project (KiCAD sources are available on my github, links are inside the thread in my signature) and use it as a starting point for your design. Remove all pieces you don't need, and add whatever you do. This way you won't forget to connect anything, and it also already has pre-designed and pre-verified pieces like power supplies, bitstream flash, voltage reference for built-in ADC and other miscellaneous bits and pieces. Just note that devices smaller than S25 don't have built-in ADC and so voltage reference can be removed.If you need any help, feel free to create a thread and I'll be happy to help if I can.

author: gnuarm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 23, 2021, 07:12:32 pm
content: Quote from: asmi on January 23, 2021, 12:25:35 amIt would be easier to squeeze a 196 pin BGA onto my board than a 256, but the 7 series is just too expensive. Maybe I'll ask a distributor about a quote. I wonder if there's a way for my customer to get a decent price on a Xilinx part. They are a pretty big company, IP equipment. That's the FPGA companies' bread and butter.I see Intel has a 169 pin 1 mm BGA, but it's an older Cyclone IV part with poor list pricing. It's hard to get significant discounts on older product lines. I will need to talk to my CM and get some pricing on a board with design rules that will fit a 0.8 mm pitch BGA. That should open up some options. The Cyclone parts seem pretty affordable if I can get a board made for them.

author: Jope
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 24, 2021, 12:01:20 am
content: Quote from: rstofer on January 21, 2021, 02:31:21 amI don't trust this solution anymore and installed ISE on a virtualized Windows 7. One of my designs didn't work with ISE on Windows 10 (with the replaced DLLs) although it worked on my old Windows 7 machine (ISE 14.7 in both cases and exact same design and project options). If I remember correctly ISIM also gave me different results.

author: langwadt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 24, 2021, 12:09:00 am
content: Quote from: Jope on January 24, 2021, 12:01:20 amyou can also run ubuntu ISE in WSL

author: Foxxz
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 24, 2021, 01:15:11 am
content: I'm running ISE on linux without any difficulty (other than its own idiosyncrasies)

author: iMo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2021, 09:55:28 pm
content: Lattice UP5k also fits your requirements, it seems. QFN is easier to solder than flatpack, imho.. There is the IceCube2 and Radiant (free w/ 1y license, no problems with a renewal so far), and ICEstorm (open source) tools available. It is low power, but not super-fast

author: cmato
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: February 27, 2021, 01:57:45 am
content: Where is possible to buy (EU) GOWIN FPGA ICs? Everywhere is only their super cheap dev.board Tang Nano, but to find somewhere their ICs, it is impossible... Same with Anlogic FPGA

author: mon2
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 04, 2021, 03:35:45 pm
content: Sharing some USA contacts for Gowin FPGA sourcing:QuoteAs usual, volume defines the component pricing. For the most part, for a few pieces here and there, use their / Mouser online pricing. Edge appears to offer more variety on this product line. Higher volumes, negotiate with them.PS: Just checked Mouser - no links at all to Gowin. NO idea what is going on here but could be related to the USA first theme. USA / North America is SO dead when it comes to high tech compared to Asia. When CNY holidays were on - the world stopped still. It was impossible for us to beg for feedback to source a relatively common LPDDR3 memory device from SkHynix / Micron - one click when Asia opened and the goods are here already. USA has lost the tech battle.Hope this helps.

author: Bassman59
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 04, 2021, 03:47:20 pm
content: Quote from: mon2 on March 04, 2021, 03:35:45 pmOr you could be less fucking hysterical and realize that maybe Gowin doesn't have a distribution agreement with Mouser, for whatever reasons.

author: mon2
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 04, 2021, 04:04:16 pm
content: QuoteOr perhaps you can get an education on Gowin. They had stock and inventory a few months ago when we were sourcing them in North America.Class dismissed.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 04, 2021, 04:38:48 pm
content: QuoteLattice introduced a charge of $590 per year for ISPLever software for their (very) old CPLD and EC series devices.I can't see it happenning for the more recent stuff, but it is a risk for any proprietary FPGA software.As regards the OPs requirement,QuoteLattice XO2 is probably a good fit, available in QFP100, also 32 pin QFN if the I/O requirement can be squeezed to 21. Internal flash, core voltage regulator and oscillator ( albeit not very accurate) make it pretty much like an MCU to use.For parts where you don't need to solder the centre pad ( like FPGAs and MCUs), QFN is no harder to deal with than QFPs.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 04, 2021, 06:40:10 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on March 04, 2021, 04:38:48 pmOuch. Didn't know about that. But yeah, those are now pretty old devices.I doubt it's going to happen any time soon for the MachXO2/3 series as well. But I'm also starting to question recent Lattice strategy. Something is going on there (as we talked about earlier, possibly some acquisition?), so I admit there's some growing uncertainty.Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on March 04, 2021, 04:38:48 pmYeah. The MachXO2 line is pretty nice, also recommend it.Now, with the question of potential license issues, the OP could also definitely consider the iCE40 series. It's currently supported by yosys, which seems to work rather well. So the OP could use free Lattice tools, but if someday access to them gets compromised, the OP would have a definite alternative.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 04, 2021, 09:08:44 pm
content: Quote from: gnuarm on January 22, 2021, 07:11:06 amI don't get why software needs to be updated. ISE works and in the case it doesn't the workarounds are well documented so it doesn't need updates.More on-topic: I like the X95 -XL series from Xilinx. They are cheap and suitable for small projects. I have used various models from this series for converting test equipment from CRT or DSTN displays to TFT displays.

author: gnuarm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 04, 2021, 10:25:12 pm
content: Quote from: mon2 on March 04, 2021, 03:35:45 pmMouser probably stopped carrying Gowin when the US Government declared them to be CCMC (Communist Chinese Military Company). This directly only impacts investments in Gowin, but if they are pushed to the next level it means US companies can't ship their products. I have to back away from using their parts because my stuff is mostly sold to the government. Too much risk.Gowin is petitioning the government to be taken off the list. We'll see how that works out for them.