fluke, you make neat stuff, but really you r killing sparkfun - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: firehopper
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2014, 02:37:48 pm
content: https://www.sparkfun.com/news/1428apparently you cant have a dark colored meter with a yellow border without the usa saying no, you cant bring that into the usa.

author: electronics man
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2014, 02:39:24 pm
content: How the hell can they trademark a colour, bloody flukehttps://www.sparkfun.com/news/1428

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2014, 02:45:30 pm
content: They didn't trademark a color, Sparkfun's post is misleading.QuoteRather, the overall "color scheme" is trademarked: grey body with yellow border. And frankly, I agree with them. That's the "Fluke look". Everyone knows that's what a Fluke DMM looks like, and everyone knows that the cheapo multimeters that also use that scheme are trying to imitate them.Also:QuoteThat an importer has to make sure the products they import comply with local laws is nothing new. Anyone evenvaguelyfamiliar with trademark law should have a big ol' red flag raised upon seeing that DMM. The fact that Sparkfun is importing things from a country well known for knockoffs and yet doesn't have anybody on hand who's even vaguely familiar with IP law is a bit - well, OK, unsurprising, but still,notgood.

author: DL8RI
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2014, 03:01:03 pm
content: So, whats next? Having a Display in the upper region and a round range-knob makes the "Fluke-look"?Quite "Apple-ish"

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2014, 03:06:08 pm
content: Quote from: DL8RI on March 19, 2014, 03:01:03 pmNo, I think you'll find they exercised discretion here andonlytrademarked the bit that actually makes people think of Fluke. Not everything is a "slippery slope".

author: ErikTheNorwegian
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2014, 03:20:24 pm
content: Isnt it Department of Homeland Security/TOBIGBULLYBROTHER that is making the fuz her? Not Fluke..

author: robrenz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2014, 03:27:05 pm
content: If I had a long term world wide reputation of quality that was readily recognized at a glance by most anyone familiar with my product line. And Chinese products were being made that benefit in various ways from looking like my product (implied quality) regardless of price. And I had taken reasonable steps (trademark/copyright etc.) to prevent that from occurring. I would want violating products stopped at the border also.

author: Fsck
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2014, 03:29:52 pm
content: Quote from: electronics man on March 19, 2014, 02:39:24 pmthat doesn't seem much like a Fluke problem. It's more of a "American government is dumb and the patent system is broken" complaint.But they really didn't have to make their meter yellow. Why not green or blue or black?

author: saturation
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2014, 03:34:36 pm
content: I agree with C47. The rules can be simplified, at a glance, do those DMM appear similar?If yes, then it violates Fluke's trademark. That customs let it go past this long is actually a minus for Fluke. You can easily get Fluke-a-look DMMs from Ebay and bypass customs most of the time.If the maker chose any other color, as Agilent does, there's no mistaking the Agilent DMM are not a Fluke-a-look. Its a reason they are so hot on establishing that orange color motif and insure the buttons are not all rectangular and in a line, to associate it with Agilent HH DMMs or at least disassociate it from Fluke.In Asia, there is no control, the 1HL brands can go all out:Taitan 15B+ vs the Fluke 15B:http://en.taitan.net.cn/products_detail/&productId=8b51e244-713e-4313-8566-c6ca2e09c9a8.htmlor the truly ballsy Ftike:

author: Jay_Diddy_B
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2014, 03:40:18 pm
content: Hi,Here is something interesting. The Trademark has expired !!From:http://www.usitc.gov/publications/337/pub4210.pdfHere is part of the document:Somebody should point this out to Sparkfun.This is the same issue that Tektronix had. They switched from yellow to blue. But in this case Tektronix was sued by Fluke.Jay_Diddy_B

author: DL8RI
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2014, 03:43:50 pm
content: Why yellow is easy. This thing is often used in the field. Therefore a good signal color.That's something I don't like about my GMC, the dark green is like chamo.

author: Excavatoree
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2014, 03:51:27 pm
content: 3MKimberly-Clark has prevented any other company from making purple nitrile gloves.3MKimberly-Clark claims that people associate the purple color with their product, and other companies would be taking advantage of their reputation by offering purple gloves. I guess they paid off enough people in the US government to make it happen.EDIT - brain fart. It was Kimberly Clark, not 3M.

author: bookaboo
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2014, 03:54:02 pm
content: At a trade show I once saw a Chinese company show off a like for like copy of a Fluke 199c. This thing was identical, I mean in every detail (well on the outside anyway), though you could tell it was fake as the material was similar to that used on cheap meters. It powered up and the screen looked nice, there was nothing on the stand to test it with unfortunately.I can't recall the name of the company but they had a close relationship with Atten and shared a stand with them.

author: Bored@Work
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2014, 03:56:09 pm
content: a) That won't kill Sparkfun. Sparkfun is a multi-million dollar business. They just like to act as if they are a mom and pop shop.b) It is in fact the size of the shipment that made them show up on the radar. 2000 multimeters in a single shipment is not what the typical mom and pop shop or single ebay seller imports in one shipment.c) Sparkfun is acting stupid or they suddenly swallowed some stupidity pills. To quoteQuoteandQuoteIf they don't know or don't understand they should get a lawyer.d) Getting 2000 rubbish multimeters destroyed is a rather good thing in my book.e) Sparkfun is lying.QuoteNo, they won't. They sell the meters for $15, they don't buy them for $15.

author: leppie
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2014, 03:57:51 pm
content: Quote from: Jay_Diddy_B on March 19, 2014, 03:40:18 pmIt was renewed.

author: G7PSK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2014, 04:30:47 pm
content: Quick someone patent a device with a switch or switches and a display on the front for making measurements of voltages and every thing else.

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2014, 04:43:25 pm
content: My personal view, Sparkfun deserved it, and I don't have any sympathy at all to them.C'mon, its not like they noob in this electronics business, they "know and fully aware" of thebusiness advantagesof bringing this cheap knock-offs that looks like Fluke.Hell, with that kind of attitude, trust me, its just the matter of time they will import these below "FUKE" if its good for their business, and when it comes to making money, Fluke has the right do make their life harder.Kudos to Fluke.

author: Dongulus
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2014, 04:48:52 pm
content: Quote from: Bored@Work on March 19, 2014, 03:56:09 pmIt was my impression that Sparkfun saying "you're killing us" was just a figure of speech, not that this blow would financially ruin Sparkfun.Quote from: Bored@Work on March 19, 2014, 03:56:09 pmOpportunity cost. They've already paid for the multimeters regardless of whether or not they can sell them, but they were expecting to eventually receive $30,000 in the future by selling them off at $15 each. That is a real, tangible financial loss.

author: electronics man
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2014, 04:52:30 pm
content: The thing is they are not actively trying to be a fluke, they haven't got the actual fluke logo, its not going to hurt fluke nobody is going to by that DMM as a replacement for a fluke.

author: sync
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2014, 04:54:16 pm
content: The trademark thing is a bit silly. But why does Sparkfun sells DMMs which doesn't meet the safety rating?

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2014, 04:54:45 pm
content: Quote from: electronics man on March 19, 2014, 04:52:30 pmTrademark dilution

author: electronics man
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2014, 04:59:09 pm
content: But what I don't get is why are they punishing sparkfun for a falt of the manufacturer.

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2014, 05:01:01 pm
content: Because it's not a fault of the manufacturer, they're Chinese and don't have to obey U.S. law. But when you import something into the U.S.,youare responsible for making sure it obeys the laws here. That's how it's always been.

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2014, 05:03:19 pm
content: Quote from: electronics man on March 19, 2014, 04:59:09 pmSo if you imported narcotics into your country from South America manufacturer, its never your fault instead of those parties in South America, huh ?

author: FrankenPC
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 19, 2014, 05:05:59 pm
content: What really pisses me off about this is the use of homeland security to enforce what is essentially a civil/corporate legal issue. This has nothing to do with security. I've noticed over the last decade that the manifold police forces in America are being hijacked by corporations to do their dirty work. This is the purvey of lawyers, not the police.

author: electronics man
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2014, 05:13:09 pm
content: Why did they get away with it before?

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2014, 05:15:17 pm
content: Quote from: electronics man on March 19, 2014, 05:13:09 pmWe only heard Sparkfun's side of the story, but its very likely and common practice that Fluke's lawyer already sent notices or warnings far before launching this assault.

author: Bored@Work
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2014, 05:25:25 pm
content: Quote from: Dongulus on March 19, 2014, 04:48:52 pmThen you have to deduce the cost of buying them in China from the $30000.

author: mariush
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2014, 05:44:17 pm
content: Those multimeter probably cost them 5$ a piece or less.At the very least they could just open each box and remove the leads and battery - sell the leads for 2$ and the battery for 1$ and they got close to half of their money back.

author: photonpunk
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2014, 05:57:51 pm
content: Seems like just another frivolous lawsuit to me. Anyone who knows that flukes are quality multimeters, should also be able to tell the deference between a fluke and a $15 sparkfun meter. I'd understand if they had ripped off the logo or something.

author: staxquad
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2014, 05:59:26 pm
content: Quote from: FrankenPC on March 19, 2014, 05:05:59 pmthey don't want lawyer involvement, that would give the victim a chancebrown shirts

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 19, 2014, 06:23:16 pm
content: Quote from: Bored@Work on March 19, 2014, 05:25:25 pmNo you don't, because the $30k in expected revenues from the sale of the meters included their reimbursement the money paid for the meters. Sparkfun is not getting their money back for the meters - they are eating it. So instead of $10,000 spent and $20,000 received (net profit of $20k), they have spent $10,000 and won't get that $20k, therefore the cost to them is a real $30k.

author: Dongulus
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2014, 06:25:06 pm
content: Quote from: Bored@Work on March 19, 2014, 05:25:25 pmNo. The bulk cost of purchasing those multimeters does not matter nor does their profit margin.When Sparkfun sells a multimeter for $15, a portion of that goes to paying back a fraction of the initial bulk purchase and the rest goes to Sparkfun as profit. Now that they can't sell their multimeters, Sparkfun have not only lost the profit they were expecting, but they have also sunk the cost of the bulk purchase that they won't get back either.Any way you look at it, they were expecting to sell 2000 multimeters at $15 a pop which is $30,000 they are now denied.Corporate666 beat me to the punch

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 19, 2014, 06:26:15 pm
content: Quote from: FrankenPC on March 19, 2014, 05:05:59 pmThat part of it is actually OK... Customs and Border Patrol is under the umbrella of Homeland Security, and has been since terrorism became a buzzword to scare the public. Part of CBP's mandate is to stem the import of illegal products. They don't make the law, they just enforce it... the law (in this case, the trademark) was approved by the USPTO. The USPTO are a bunch of imbeciles when it comes to granting patents and trademarks, but CBP doesn't get to choose which trademarks they will enforce.What will have happened is that Fluke will have petitioned CBP to stop imports of products that infringe upon their IP. With proof of valid IP (trademark/patent), CBP just handles the enforcement.

author: 8086
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2014, 06:27:26 pm
content: Quote from: Bored@Work on March 19, 2014, 05:25:25 pmNo, they have lost stock and also they have lost profit. Total $30,000.Edit: Well, that will teach me to not refresh the page before replying!

author: edavid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2014, 07:10:41 pm
content: Wow, maybe Fluke will start checking their Facebook page more than once a week:https://www.facebook.com/fluke.corporation

author: bxs
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2014, 07:24:19 pm
content: The multimeter is so diferent from a flukeone more US BS

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2014, 07:24:41 pm
content: What's the brand name of those meters ? FUK-U ?

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2014, 07:47:28 pm
content: Although it is not 100% applicable to this case, a quick glimpse on Fluke's corporate stance on counterfeiting:http://www.fluke.com/fluke/caen/community/fluke-news-plus/ArticleCategories/RD/The-Fight-Against-Counterfeit-Electrical-Products.htmAlthough the red flag was regarding appearance, I wonder if any legal action from Sparkfun could further lengthen this discussion and extend it to other potential issues on these DMMs such as invalid certification agency markings, CAT ratings, etc. In any case, I think that Sparkfun loses.

author: Phaedrus
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2014, 08:07:54 pm
content: Quote from: BravoV on March 19, 2014, 05:03:19 pmThe importer of narcotics would be arrested under US jurisdiction, and the producer of narcotics would be arrested under Colombian/Venezuelan/whatever jurisdiction, if they choose to enforce those laws. (they don't)

author: deth502
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2014, 08:28:32 pm
content: soooooo many things about this piss me off.im not worried about sparkfun losing money, theyll survive.frst off, corporate bullying. this pisses me off to no end. bullshit complaints from deep pocketed huge corporations that are enough to squash anyone trying to get a start. this is not contained to multimeters. you can create a great new ground breaking product, then some asshole with billions of $$$ will come anlong and say "that has an led on it, my copywrighted product also has an led on it, therfore, it is infringing on our ip" it dosewnt have to be true or make any sense, all they have to do is pay their lawyers enough to legally bankrupt you.second, come on, this is fluke. EVERYONE who has ever even seen a dmm before knows who fluke is. is this little piece of shit really going to hurt them? fuck no.next, my fucking tax dollars going to the govt are being used to enforce these bullies. that should be a civil matter.if we look past that, and look at the letter, another reason was that the importing of them could "destroy or substantially injure an industry in the united states" , again, first off, bullshit. these will not affect fluke. if someone is looking to buy a $15 multimeter, they are not fluke customers, and if someone is looking to buy a fluke, they are not going to buy a pos $15 dmm. but more to the point with this, is that if they are going to use this as a reason to deny importation, then they should be stopping the import of nearly EVERY FUCKING THING that comes from china, including 99% of every item in every walmart. every foreign automobile, motorcycle, ect..... fact is, most us industries have already been killed or crippled by cheaper imports, but now, for some reason, on this one item, they choose to make a stand?

author: AndyC_772
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2014, 08:37:32 pm
content: You do realise that Fluke hasn't actively done anything at all in this case, right?They own a trademark, and the relevant authorities have done their job enforcing it. That's all.Blaming Fluke for this specific incident is pointless. If you want to complain about anyone, complain to the authorities. Argue that this particular DMM isso obviouslya low quality, cheap PoS that it should be granted an exemption, and see how far you get.Yes, it sucks, but it's also the reason why the shelves are NOT full of dangerous, inaccurate meters that actually DO look like Flukes.

author: deth502
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2014, 08:40:51 pm
content: this is the second thread on this. i already posted in the other, but to paraphrase, fuck fluke. this is another example of copyright bullying and money trying to kill any competition.and as ive said in the other thread, the sales of these will hurt fluke? bullshit. someone who is looking to buy a $15 dmm IS NOT a fluke customer, and a fluke customer IS NOT going to buy one of these $15 pos's and feel it is a legitimate substitute for an actual fluke.although, as much as i bitch about copyright abuse, and imo, calling a color scheme copyrighted definitely is, i will say that that "ftike" meter in a previous post is wrong, they are absolutely trying to fool someone into thinking they are a fluke.

author: linux-works
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2014, 08:42:08 pm
content: I wish ebay would enforce abuse of keywords that are brand names. if I search for a fluke meter, I don't want to see '1hl labs meeter, good as fluke, tek, hp, agilent'.also, DHS should stick to things they are good at, like robbing us of our water bottles and such.

author: deth502
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2014, 08:43:24 pm
content: the govt is doing it on behalf of fluke. if fluke was truly innocent in all of this, it would not be an issue. if they hadnt complained about it, no one would have been looking for it.

author: AndyC_772
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2014, 08:51:04 pm
content: Evidence?

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2014, 08:52:21 pm
content: Quote from: deth502 on March 19, 2014, 08:43:24 pmTheyhave to. Protecting your trademarks is one of the requirements to keep them considered "in use".Good lord, can you people do a little research before declaring Fluke to be a bunch of bullies? If you want to bitch about DHS tearing open Sparkfun's packages, go ahead, but that's a separate issue.

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2014, 08:55:14 pm
content: Quote from: deth502 on March 19, 2014, 08:40:51 pmThe existence of a large number of look-alike knockoffs can certainly hurt the perception of Fluke as a brand.AsI'vesaid inthisthread:Trademark dilution.QuoteCopyright? The rules are different for different types of IP, please try to get them straight first.Your opinion will seem more believable if it's informed.

author: Russ.Dill@gmail.com
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2014, 09:02:55 pm
content: Quote from: c4757p on March 19, 2014, 08:52:21 pmThis is a nonsensical trademark though. Its a trademark used to bully smaller companies. Fluke was by no means the first company to release test equipment with a yellow border and contrasting colors and isn't the only company to do so. Imagine if cars worked this way. Ford owns blue, chevy red, honda yellow, hyundai black, bmw white, etc, etc.

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 19, 2014, 09:08:25 pm
content: Quote from: linux-works on March 19, 2014, 08:42:08 pmeBay does do this... I've even had items delisted because of listing brands that an item fits... for example, if you wrote "Replacement iPhone charger" but you are not Apple, that is not allowed. Nor are you allowed to list, say, a micro USB 5V charger and say "fits Motorola Razr, Samsung Galaxy S3, etc".They don't enforce it perfectly but I think it's just because they have so many listings to police.

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2014, 09:10:42 pm
content: Quote from: Russ.Dill@gmail.com on March 19, 2014, 09:02:55 pmComplete non-sequitur. What - only smaller companies would want to use the same color scheme as Fluke? They'd have a cow if Agilent did it too. Perhaps even more so.QuoteTheydowork this way. I promise you that specific patterns in the designs are indeed trademarked. Why does it become nonsensical when part of that design pattern is a color?

author: rollatorwieltje
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 19, 2014, 09:20:23 pm
content: would be fun if the same thing happened to Flukes red 28ex, as it might harm the Uni-T brand

author: electronics man
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2014, 09:20:46 pm
content: Quote from: c4757p on March 19, 2014, 08:55:14 pmno, people are not going to confuse it whith a fluke it doesnt say fluke so it wont hurt the brand

author: Russ.Dill@gmail.com
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2014, 09:21:56 pm
content: Quote from: c4757p on March 19, 2014, 09:10:42 pmDeWalt uses it on all their measurement equipment.QuoteBecause a color is too generic. At what point did Fluke decide that other companies had to *stop* using yellow? As a company, can I also arbitrarily decide that all other companies change their products to stop using a popular generic color? What's to stop Fluke from claiming additional colors? How many colors are they allowed to claim?

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2014, 09:26:07 pm
content: I didn't say anyone wouldconfuseit with a Fluke, did I?Would you go off and read the link I posted, please?Trademark dilution.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2014, 09:30:16 pm
content: AndyC has made the point above that I was about to make.Why is everyone complaining about Fluke here? Fluke has no part in this. Lawsuits? What lawsuits?Wake up people, and smell the coffee!This is not Fluke, this is the Department of Homeland Security. This is an agency of the US government. An agency that can act outside the courts and without arbitration. If they decide to block an import, they can. And they do. Often.If you want to complain, don't blame Fluke. Blame your government! Blame an agency that can act on any flimsy and poorly understood pretext, without a court order, and with little scope for appeal if you don't like their decision (by which time your appeal will be too late anyway).I find it amazing how people can have their attention misdirected like this. No wonder the government can get away with so much, when people don't even notice what is going on.

author: Noise Floor
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2014, 09:30:42 pm
content: I don't think this is a common problem, probably just a fluke.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2014, 09:33:15 pm
content: Trademark dilution is indeed the problemYou try bringing a product to market in a nice bright red can and using a flowing font, in white letters call it 'colicky colon'. see what will happen

author: andyturk
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2014, 09:52:21 pm
content: Quote from: Jay_Diddy_B on March 19, 2014, 03:40:18 pmFluke renewed it a year ago:http://trademarks.justia.com/759/34/n-a-75934005.html

author: linux-works
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2014, 09:53:55 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on March 19, 2014, 09:30:16 pmdamn! I thought I turned that burner off. (uhhh, I'll be right back.)Quotewe notice it. but we're powerless to fight city hall.

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2014, 10:06:33 pm
content: Really reminds me of Apple vs Samsung... "any vaguely rectangular smartphone with a touchscreen is ours!"

author: Russ.Dill@gmail.com
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2014, 10:12:32 pm
content: I'm very thankful that in fashion, the law is very clear and this this is not an issue. Too bad the laws governing shapes, colors, and styles of the devices we use that to many are a fashion statement aren't the same.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 19, 2014, 10:21:08 pm
content: Quote from: AndyC_772 on March 19, 2014, 08:37:32 pmNot so, it's ALL Fluke's doing. Read the 162 page document from the International Trade Commission.http://www.usitc.gov/publications/337/pub4210.pdfFluke very purposely got this filed to stop the importation fo a dozen brands of multimeters with the "Fluke look"The authorities don't go around checking and enforcing trademarks without Fluke deliberately applying for and being granted this ruling.In fact, given that Sparkfun have been selling this meter for years, it is very likely that it has appeared on the Fluke/Danaher radar, and they have complained.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 19, 2014, 10:23:09 pm
content: Quote from: Russ.Dill@gmail.com on March 19, 2014, 09:21:56 pmAround 2000 when they applied for the trademark. Companies had been selling yellow meters for almost 2 decades before that.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 19, 2014, 10:24:58 pm
content: Quote from: c4757p on March 19, 2014, 09:10:42 pmFluke threatened to sue Tektronix (before they were one and the same) for the exact same thing, a yellow holstered Tek mulitmeter. Fluke either won, or Tek backed down, because they changed their case from yellow to blue.

author: Tinkerer
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2014, 10:47:43 pm
content: This brings up a good point. At what point is it not ok to trademark a color? What if a company decides they want to trademark blue, green, red, orange, etc etc to block competition. They could say 'look, fluke got one for their yellow' and thats a precedent they can use.I think if someone truely wanted to fight it, they could get that color trademark stuck down. Not saying it would be easy, or cheap, but I think it would be possible.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2014, 10:48:58 pm
content: If I would be sparkfun guy, I would donate the multimeters to EE university workshops, and students around the globe. It would be the perfect advertisement. If the DMMs are safe.

author: sleemanj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2014, 10:58:13 pm
content: Quote from: Tinkerer on March 19, 2014, 10:47:43 pmNever.logo, sure. some unique design physical, maybe. colour, no, never.These seized meters could never be confused for a fluke, they are not passing off as a fluke, they are not counterfeit, no matter if they are just the right shade of yellow or not.Customs/DHS should be having no part of this. And Fluke should hand their head in shame.As Dave says, this is their doing by petitioning for enforcement over a number of meters that simply could never be mistaken for a fluke - which is what a trademark is supposed to do, prevent one product being passed off as another.

author: deth502
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2014, 10:58:51 pm
content: Quote from: c4757p on March 19, 2014, 08:55:14 pmblah, blah, blah. 6 of one, half dozen of the other. the point remains regardless of the nomenclature.

author: ehughes
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 20, 2014, 12:02:18 am
content: I just sent them this via email and on their Facebook page.Wes Pringle, President; Paul Heydron, Director of Engineering and Leah Friberg, Public Affairs Manager'wes.pringle@fluke.com'; 'paul.heydron@fluke.com'; 'leah.friberg@fluke.com'Dear Mr. Pringle, Mr. Heydron and Ms. Friberg,Please see Sparkfun’s blog posting here:https://www.sparkfun.com/news/1428if you haven’t seen it already.I hope that you do the right thing here. No one would confuse this product with a meter that costs an order of magnitude more. By be a part of the this problem, you are inhibiting people on smaller budgets from developing lifelong love of electronics. I personally own a Fluke 179 and use it almost daily. I also have purchased several for my day job and so do my many engineering colleagues. No one confuses your products with what Sparkfun is selling. People understand that these are cheap starter meters, not a genuine Fluke product. Trademarking a yellow bordered dark grey rectangle is simply ridiculous and I hope you reconsider your position by helping Sparkfun with this issue.Sincerely,Eli Hughes

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 20, 2014, 12:28:57 am
content: Quote from: deth502 on March 19, 2014, 10:58:51 pmBut his point is right - it's not about whether someone would see these cheap import meters and actually think it's a Fluke, it's about dilution of the mark. Yellow/gray housings on handheld meters are a trademark of Fluke... people see that and think of Fluke. The Chinese making meters in the same style are doing it because it's a mark of quality handheld measurement tools. They know precisely what they are doing.The reason, IMO, some people feel this is heavy handedness by Fluke or the US Gov't is actually indicative of the problem. It's not like everyone was making yellow/gray meters and Fluke came along and trademarked it, stopping everyone else. Rather, Fluke came along and were the first ones to do it and made it into a strong brand - and that is why everyone else stated to do it.

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 20, 2014, 12:36:36 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on March 19, 2014, 10:21:08 pmBut people are acting like Fluke can just call CBP and CBP will release the meters to Sparkfun - it doesn't work like that. With trademarks, they must be kept active and in-use to be valid. But you do not need to be the first one to ever use it, just make it enough of your brand to be trademark-able. So the fact that others made yellow/gray meters before doesn't make a difference. Fluke got that trademark on yellow/gray handheld multimeters in the USA based on the market and their business at that time. If it is not valid, then it can be challenged in court. But I don't believe anyone else standardized on yellow/gray and made it part of their brand such that they would have any grounds to challenge Fluke's trademark.People complaining to Fluke are totally barking up the wrong tree. There is nothing Fluke can do, nor should they. They worked hard for that trademark, and if they willfully do not protect it, they lose it by definition.

author: han
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 20, 2014, 12:37:29 am
content: For revenge idea.. give the $15 DMM label "FLAKE" and sell it to another country

author: Russ.Dill@gmail.com
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 20, 2014, 01:07:17 am
content: QuoteI kind of agree and disagree at the same time. It isn't Flukes fault that the system can be abused in such a way. If the potential to do this within the system exists and they don't take advantage of it, someone else will. Once in place, its a legal battle that no one else in the marketplace is willing to fight, Fluke has deep pockets and changing the color of your product is easier than trying to fight the trademark. Perhaps by not trademarking it and enforcing that trademark, they risk some other company getting the trademark and limiting what Fluke can sell.Of course, on the other hand, just because the law allows you to do something, doesn't make it the right thing to do. Seems like a really odd thing to restrict, if people want their computer a specific color, its no problem to buy that color. If people want their TV a specific color, no problem. Car? No problem. Computer mouse? No problem. Cell phone? No problem. But then you shop for multimeters and all of the sudden manufacturers are limited in what color choices they can offer you.

author: synapsis
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 20, 2014, 01:07:33 am
content: My local electronics store has had a shopping cart overflowing with these meters for years. If the color was that important, shouldn't it have been brought up way before now?

author: janoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 20, 2014, 01:18:38 am
content: Quote from: Corporate666 on March 20, 2014, 12:36:36 amPeople complaining to Fluke are doing exactly the right thing - it may not do anything for SparkFun, but it does send a message that filling BS trademarks on stuff that shouldn't be trademarkable because it is too generic and then using that BS mark to bully competitors is *NOT* OK.Granted, USPTO has royally screwed the pooch here by granting this markl, same as when they allowed the Apple's patent for a rectangular slab with round corners, but that doesn't make it any less atrocious.In another case Microsoft tried to trademark the word "Windows" - and got rejected, fortunately. Otherwise your house wouldn't be allowed to have windows but "ventilation & lighting holes".I do wonder whether the crate of crappy meters was worth of this shitstorm of bad PR all over the internet to Fluke ...

author: SL4P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 20, 2014, 01:23:16 am
content: My feeling is that we need to separate a few things here...- The multi-meter - other multi-meters are allowed generically.- The grey body - virtually every piece of electronics tools have a grey / dark body.- The yellow perimeter - is a recognized hazard / safety indicator - used in rescue and other warning scenarios to avoid damage, loss or injury due its colour and high-contrast.

author: Russ.Dill@gmail.com
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 20, 2014, 01:27:36 am
content: Quote from: Corporate666 on March 20, 2014, 12:28:57 amThat's entirely circular. There was demand for that color combination well before the trademark, and quality manufacturers were providing it for customers. Take the HP 973A for instance (1995). If people see yellow/grey housings on a meter and think of Fluke, its only because Fluke forced other makers to stop using that combination, not because its somehow originally unique to Fluke. Now, if they are calling their meter FUKE and/or have a logo with great similarity to the Fluke logo, that's a different story.

author: peter.mitchell
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 20, 2014, 01:29:35 am
content: I wonder what that meter is like compared to the uni t ut 136. Maybe they should say "stuff it, lets use it as an oportunity to go one better! "

author: mariush
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 20, 2014, 02:05:26 am
content: Like i said here or on the other thread "bloody fluke", the Sparkfun multimeter is one of those very cheap with minimal protections multimeter.It's a rebranded Victor VC830L that's available on eBay for 12$ with free shipping :http://www.ebay.com/itm/Victor-VC830L-LCD-Digital-Multitester-AC-DC-Multimeter-Tester-Voltmeter-Ohmeter-/221373898550?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item338ae99f36Alibaba is also full of them. If you can buy them for 12$ on ebay, how much do you think they paid for a 2000 piece order? Less than 10$ is my bet, I'd guess even around 6-7$.The multimeter is not worth the 15$, it's a plain 2000 count, manual range multimeter, probably with a COB chip, one fuse for the Amps range, Cat 2 probes... crap.For about 15-16$ you can get on eBay an Uni-T UT33A :http://www.uni-trend.com.cn/cp-show.asp?yy=%D6%D0%CE%C4&ProductNO=451Auto ranging, 4000 count, diode, continuity, uA, mA, A, transistor check and hFe,everythinga beginner would want or need. Just inductor measurment is missing but it's not that used.I guess it just wasn't the right price for Sparkfun, they'd rather buy crap cheap and sell high.

author: echen1024
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 20, 2014, 02:20:15 am
content: I would agree with c4 here, as this is trademark dilution.

author: nitro2k01
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 20, 2014, 02:32:14 am
content: Quote from: synapsis on March 20, 2014, 01:07:33 amIn the particular unit you're showing off there, a difference is that the yellow part is a holster and not an integrated part of the body.

author: nitro2k01
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 20, 2014, 02:54:28 am
content: Quote from: Russ.Dill@gmail.com on March 20, 2014, 01:27:36 amThe chain of events as far as I can understand it is, Fluke started using this color scheme in 1988 (if the trademark filing is to believed) and filed the trademark in 2000. The filing of the trademark was just a reassertion of the fact that grey body+yellow frame was ade factotrademark of Fluke. For the non-uniqueness argument to be valid, you would have to prove that this color scheme was prevalent before Fluke's first use in commerce, not just before the filing of the trademark. The reason for filing the trademark was a reaction to copycats copying the design of Fluke meters.

author: staxquad
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 20, 2014, 03:07:00 am
content: Not only has Sparkfun been targeted but also "Velleman, Harbor Freight, Elenco, Electronic Express, and Jameco to name a few"

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 20, 2014, 03:07:01 am
content: Quote from: c4757p on March 19, 2014, 02:45:30 pmIt's called "trade dress" in the industry. i.e. a "look" that defines a product.

author: staxquad
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 20, 2014, 03:09:07 am
content: Quote from: AndyC_772 on March 19, 2014, 08:37:32 pmthey also name the manufacturers in China and the importers in the USA in the PDF

author: andyturk
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 20, 2014, 03:10:51 am
content: Quote from: Corporate666 on March 20, 2014, 12:28:57 amSorry, but fsck that. Fluke didn't invent Yellow and they didn't invent multimeters either.You don't buy a Fluke because it's yellow (at least, I didn't), you buy it because it works well. There's zero likelihood (bupkis, nada, zilch, etc.) that any of Fluke's customers would be confused by a $15 Sparkfun knockoff P.O.S.Save the talk about brand "dilution" for sugary soda water, overpriced handbags, and jeans that will be out of style in a year or two.Oh, and fsck the lawyers that come up with this crap too.

author: nitro2k01
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 20, 2014, 03:14:32 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on March 20, 2014, 03:07:01 amc4757p's point was that it's notsimplythe color yellow that is trademarked, but the combination. Solid yellow body, yellow body with grey border and neon green body with yellow border are all arguably not covered by the trademark.

author: staxquad
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 20, 2014, 03:28:47 am
content: Quote from: nitro2k01 on March 20, 2014, 03:14:32 amAnd these don't look like Flukes, you'd never mistake them for Flukes, Fluke could not prove that they would be harmed by their sale, their markets are different, but are targeted by Fluke and denied entry to the USA.

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 20, 2014, 04:01:28 am
content: Quote from: janoc on March 20, 2014, 01:18:38 amWho does it send a message to? What do you think Fluke is going to do differently because a bunch of angry nerds who don't understand trademark law are pissed that they can't buy yellow and gray $15 multimeters? All of this angst isn't going to do anything to Fluke except to prove to them that there are just as many infringing products as they feared and confirm that they were correct in asserting their IP.If you think the laws for trademarking are too lax, then you ought to take that up with the politicians who pass those laws. Expecting Fluke not to operate within those laws is silly.And you are mistaken about the Windows thing - a key aspect of trademarks is dilution of the mark that lessen's its uniqueness, and confusion between companies using the mark. There is no way a window in a home would ever be confused with software, which is why it would not affect anything in a home. Just like you don't have to call apples "Green fruit energy units". But don't stick an image of an apple on your electronics widget and expect not to get sued right quick.

author: nitro2k01
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 20, 2014, 04:02:04 am
content: Quote from: staxquad on March 20, 2014, 03:28:47 amYes and no, some of those more than others.Take this Elenco for example:You don't just have the gray body and yellow border, but also a familiar button layout with one yellow and one blue button.Again, as has been pointed out, it's about trademark dilution, not necessarily that people would actually confuse the brands. You may argue that customs shouldn't stop these goods from being imported for such a reason, but it's clear that these Chinese brands are, hmmm, inspired by Fluke. Design wise, not necessarily quality wise.

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 20, 2014, 04:03:37 am
content: Quote from: Russ.Dill@gmail.com on March 20, 2014, 01:27:36 amIt's not circular - it's sort of a chicken and egg thing. Did Fluke assert their trademark rights because people were copying their branding, or did people only copy Fluke's branding because they asserted their trademark rights? Well, since the trademark was granted and upheld, the answer is the former. It's easy for us to look from a distance and say "that's crazy! There are tons of yellow/gray multimeters out there!" - but that is just proof of how many manufacturers have been riding Fluke's coattails on their branding.

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 20, 2014, 04:07:35 am
content: Quote from: andyturk on March 20, 2014, 03:10:51 amYou've misunderstood trademark law. It's not simply about whether someone sees a $15 meter and thinks it's a fluke, it's about the dilution of the mark.Coca Cola didn't invent red paint or it's use on canned beverages, nor the use of cursive text, but as someone else said previously, put them all together on a canned soft drink and wait for the phone to ring from the Coca Cola lawyers. Same with meters... Fluke didn't invent yellow or its use on equipment, but they sufficiently developed the combination such that it became synonymous with their brand. There are lots of safety colors like blue, orange, green and others - but it's no coincidence that so many meters skip all the other colors in going for yellow/gray - because Fluke made that scheme synonymous with "quality multimeter".

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 20, 2014, 04:20:33 am
content: Apologies for posting this, still a bit related though, its just I strongly believe it is the right timing & moment, a shameless ad ->HERE.Again, sorry ...... <duck>

author: linux-works
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 20, 2014, 04:30:48 am
content: my fluke handhelds predate the YCE (yellow common era).I'm not sure how I'm supposed to feel.

author: andyturk
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 20, 2014, 05:16:31 am
content: Quote from: Corporate666 on March 20, 2014, 04:07:35 amThe grippy plastic cover on my 87-IV is great because it protects the instrument inside from abuse, not because it's Yellow. The dark gray of the hard plastic clearly has no bearing on the meter's function.However, the power of Fluke's "mark" comes precisely from the fact that the color combination is arbitrary and essentially unrelated to what the product does.It's form over function in the worst way. Yuck.PS. Sorry, BravoV, I ain't gonna part with my 87. ;-)

author: Joule Thief
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 20, 2014, 06:20:09 am
content: So next up will be the $14 multimeter (rubber case optional) with a $1 rubberized case in your choice of colors (yellow, red, blue)oops -sorry - we only have yellow in stock!

author: moemoe
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 20, 2014, 08:54:37 am
content: Looks like fluke has some sort of intellectual property on gray cases with yellow bumpers:https://www.sparkfun.com/news/1428

author: moemoe
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 20, 2014, 09:25:25 am
content: Oops, I did a search prior to posting but didn't see this thread.

author: Bored@Work
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 20, 2014, 10:15:23 am
content: Quote from: Corporate666 on March 19, 2014, 06:23:16 pmAh, so you are talking accounting tricks.

author: Bored@Work
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 20, 2014, 10:20:58 am
content: Quote from: NANDBlog on March 19, 2014, 10:48:58 pmThat would mean importing them so the university can get them, which is a no-no.And this rubbish is not safe. It is a good thing that 2000 of these are going to be bulldozed. The world doesn't need more rubbish multimeter.Before you ask how I know they are not safe? Just look at the rubbish probes. Typical for unsafe cheap rubbish probes they have half-length sleeves over the banana plugs. I.e. the plugs are half way exposed.However the idea of the sleeves is to protect people from accidentally getting in contact with the plugs. And the meter is probably a Vichy or Victory - I never seen a safe meter from them.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 20, 2014, 10:30:57 am
content: I have Fluke ads that show up until at least 1988 March 1991 (for the 70 series, 80 series had yellow holster by then) they still used the gray charcoal holster with either a yellow or black meter. So I'm curious to know when Fluke switched to the yellow holster and dark meter "look", and if any meter before that used it. From memory I think there were. There were plenty of yellow no-name meters before that date, so yellow was a common colour at the time.Of course "trade dress" issues like this one (it is NOT a trademark issue as such) aren't a "prior art" thing, but it would establish if Fluke are being bigger dicks than they already are.Can anyone find a 1980's vintage meter with a yellow holster (or surround) and dark meter?I foolishly through out all my old catalogs, and few of the magazine ads are in colour at that time.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 20, 2014, 10:31:51 am
content: Thoughts on the issue from an practicing trademark attorney:Quote

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 20, 2014, 10:36:49 am
content: Quote from: SL4P on March 20, 2014, 01:23:16 amAs for yellow, Fluke were liekly not the first with using yellow in a meter, many competitors in the 80's had yellow meters. e.g. Beckman, Metrix, and a host of cheapies.

author: Bored@Work
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 20, 2014, 10:42:20 am
content: Quote from: synapsis on March 20, 2014, 01:07:33 amYou are arguing like people caught speeding. "But officer, see at all the others speeding here? Why don't you take care of them?".

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 20, 2014, 10:49:21 am
content: Along with the Tektronix backdown on their similar colour scheme, perhaps Metrix got the finger wag from Fluke too. The MX57Ex meter is available in both red and yellow surround, or maybe just red now?

author: Wytnucls
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 20, 2014, 11:32:28 am
content: Is Uni-T next?

author: saturation
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 20, 2014, 12:55:35 pm
content: IMHO: the yellow color is associated with the whole Fluke product line, including their corporate logo. It began in the 1990s just before Fluke's purchase by Denaher, until then it was used mostly with the now famous 80s series DMM. That solidified the color scheme a trademark/trade dress, as well as the end of alternative none-yellow holster colors [ except for rare OEM Fluke DMM's made for NASA or other agencies; also red holsters are used in their HH Intrinsically Safe Ex line of HH tools ]. The full name as John Fluke Mfg. etc., was later simplified to just Fluke just prior to the purchase.From archive.org of Fluke in 1996, corporate logo:Fluke prior to 1995:Evolution of logo and color scheme, notice the brand name on each generation of DMMs:

author: saturation
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 20, 2014, 01:08:32 pm
content: Could be. That is an Intrinsically safe version of the 28-II, you'll see a clear label "Ex" somewhere in yellow. AFAIK Fluke dominates that field nearly 99%, small and specialized as it is. There are almost no DMM in that market I know other than Fluke and Metrix. I don't think its a standard but most HH use a red holster/chassis, I think mostly from Fluke's lead.Quote from: Wytnucls on March 20, 2014, 11:32:28 am

author: dfmischler
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 20, 2014, 01:28:53 pm
content: Quote from: Bored@Work on March 20, 2014, 10:42:20 amI used to help a police officer train his (very serious) dog. He said the best answer to that question goes like this:"Did you ever go fishing? Did you ever catch all the fish?"

author: borjam
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 20, 2014, 02:49:49 pm
content: Quote from: nitro2k01 on March 20, 2014, 02:54:28 amI purchased my first Fluke (a 77) in 1990. It had a dark grey holster, but the more advanced (and beyond my reach) 80 series had the trademark yellow holster.I've found an original series 80 manual here:http://physics.ucsd.edu/neurophysics/Manuals/Fluke/87______umeng0800It mentions the standard yellow holster. To begin with, unless I am very wrong, that holster design was unique to Fluke. Of course there were other multimeters, even el cheapo ones, with a yellow case, but not that dark grey case with a yellow holster.

author: Wytnucls
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 20, 2014, 03:23:23 pm
content: Red is just a random color chosen by Fluke for their EX meters. There is no standard as such.The Metrix range is red, not just the EX meter.This is the Gossen EX mOhm meter and the IP65 meter:

author: AwArD_RzD
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 20, 2014, 08:23:16 pm
content: Reply from Fluke on the facebook pagehttps://www.facebook.com/notes/fluke-corporation/sparkfun-we-hear-you/10151978262765592

author: ixfd64
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 20, 2014, 08:35:49 pm
content: Maybe the folks working at the electronics dumps will "accidentally" lose the shipment, and the DMMs will mysteriously appear on eBay?

author: dr.diesel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 20, 2014, 08:38:25 pm
content: Quote from: AwArD_RzD on March 20, 2014, 08:23:16 pmBetter response than I figured!Summary: Fluke has offered $30,000+ in genuine Fluke stuff (not specified) to SparkFun, to sell or donate.

author: Bored@Work
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 20, 2014, 08:50:20 pm
content: Quote from: dr.diesel on March 20, 2014, 08:38:25 pmIt means Fluke understood that Sparkfun was trying to create a PR disaster for Fluke, because Sparkfun playing the "oh they kill us, we are just a mom and pop shop trying to make a honest living" card.Fluke properly calculated that it is cheaper to spend $30000 in gear than handling a potential PR disaster. But just for the record, it was Sparkfun violating the law, not Fluke.Edit: And with Fluke's remark that Sparkfun could sell or donate the loot they did put a bit of pressure on Sparkfun. All those bargain hunters mobilized by Sparkfun to put pressure on Fluke will now put pressure on Sparkfun to get a free multimeter.

author: Fsck
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 20, 2014, 08:55:06 pm
content: Quote from: Bored@Work on March 20, 2014, 08:50:20 pmthe more amusing thing is "small shop" with an order of 2000 units of PRC meters.

author: pickle9000
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 20, 2014, 08:59:39 pm
content: Wow, Fluke has some smart people working there. How much would you spend to get that kind of PR? I bet it's worth every penny.

author: MartinX
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 20, 2014, 09:22:03 pm
content: As I remember it the first yellow multimeter was Fluke 23 and I think that showed up in the early eighties, in old catalogues I have from the mid eighties there are plenty of yellow multimeters from CT Lutron, Hung Chang and the likes looking very similar to Fluke 23, there is no question were they got their inspiration from.

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 20, 2014, 09:42:47 pm
content: Quote from: dr.diesel on March 20, 2014, 08:38:25 pmThat is a master strokeBecause Sparkfun will likely look like a-holes if they end up selling it... so it pretty much coerces them to give it away - ensuring the company importing knock-off parts still suffers a financial loss, but also makes Fluke the good guys, and gets a lot of people Fluke's in their hands.What a brilliant move.

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 20, 2014, 09:45:47 pm
content: Quote from: Bored@Work on March 20, 2014, 10:15:23 amNo, just fundamental common sense.If you spend $10k to earn $30k, your net profit is $20k.If you spend $10k but then earn nothing - you have lost both the $10k your spent as well as the $20k you were going to earn.You don't subtract the $10k from the $30k unless you get it back. But Sparkfun has said the meters will be returned to the manufacturer or destroyed - and that the manufacturer has refused to accept them back. So the $10k they spent on the meters is gone, as is the $20k they would have earned.Loss = $30k

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 20, 2014, 10:02:27 pm
content: Quote from: saturation on March 20, 2014, 12:55:35 pmIn the early 90's it had only been used in one meter product, the 80 series for several years.I believe the Scopemeter was next with the yellow holster in late 1991, and the 70 series colour change happened about the same time. So it wasn't maybe 92 or 93 before Fluke could lay claim to it being a common company trade dress look'n'feel for it's products. Which of course they didn't trademark until 2000.

author: deth502
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 20, 2014, 10:03:55 pm
content: Quote from: Corporate666 on March 20, 2014, 12:28:57 amwell i have a non-fluke, name brand (rebranded), fluke colored multimeter that is decades older than the fluke patent that wishes to call bullshit n that.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 20, 2014, 10:04:32 pm
content: Quote from: saturation on March 20, 2014, 01:08:32 pmThey did a yellow version of the Ex too:

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 20, 2014, 10:09:32 pm
content: Quote from: pickle9000 on March 20, 2014, 08:59:39 pmAny PR person worth their salt in today social media frenzy world would have recommended that response.Of course Fluke would never have responded to that if Sparkfun has approached them. It take outing companies publicly to get a response like that.Keep in mind that Flukes response cost LESS than a full page ad in one of the big electronics magazines and associated website for a month.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 20, 2014, 10:11:50 pm
content: Quote from: deth502 on March 20, 2014, 10:03:55 pmWhat model is it? and date?Can you post a photo?Does it have a yellow holster and dark body?

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 20, 2014, 10:16:26 pm
content: I don't think prior art is as much of an issue with trademarks as it is with patents. This males sense, as a look/feel can become associated with a successful brand even if someone less well know had something similar in the past.

author: dr.diesel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 20, 2014, 10:22:58 pm
content: Quote from: Corporate666 on March 20, 2014, 09:42:47 pmAgreed.I've talked with Nate (founder of SparkFun) personally, he's a stand up guy. The US customs event along with a raffle/give-a-way/contest/etc will generate sales that might actually exceed the original loss anyhow.

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 20, 2014, 10:23:24 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on March 20, 2014, 10:16:26 pm^ This.Where are you people getting this "prior art" idea?

author: TopLoser
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 20, 2014, 10:36:01 pm
content: Quote from: Corporate666 on March 20, 2014, 09:45:47 pmI bought a something today for $100 and expected to sell it for $1000.What a surprise that never happened, only got $200 for it. Does that mean I made a loss of of $800 or a profit of $100.Corporate666 welcome to reality....

author: deth502
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 20, 2014, 10:49:11 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on March 20, 2014, 10:11:50 pmtrying to find a date on it now, cant find shit. it was years old when i got it around 2000, so im sure it predates their 2000 copyright. its a sears (not craftsman) number 982014017.

author: deth502
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 20, 2014, 10:53:44 pm
content: fwiw, i also have a fluke from 2010, 10 years after the filing of the patent, that has absolutely no yellow on it at all.how can you claim an exclusive right to a certain style if you do not even use that style exclusively?

author: deth502
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 20, 2014, 11:13:03 pm
content: Quote from: dr.diesel on March 20, 2014, 08:38:25 pmi didnt read it that way.Quotedo you determine the value of the held shippment by the final sale price? i would read that as the value of the shipment meaning what sparkfun paid the chineese supplier for it, ie. significantly less than $30k. probably around $10kand keep iin mind that a good sized chunk you pay for that fluke goes to advertising, research, and paying off those senators, customs agents, and patent office people, so for them to give up what would be lot of meters with a $10k retail value would only actually cost them a fraction of that.i think this was a BRILLIANT idea on fluke's behalf. they come out looking like the winner and probably for a few hundred $$, if that.well played, fluke, well played.

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 20, 2014, 11:18:44 pm
content: Quote from: deth502 on March 20, 2014, 10:03:55 pm...and if that company had pursued a yellow/gray color scheme on their meters as part of their brand identity, then Fluke wouldn't have been able to trademark it as representative of their brand.It's a trademark - not a patent. So Fluke doesn't need to be the first ones to do it, just the first ones to make the color scheme part of their branding. Which they did, and got a trademark on it after people started copying their branding to ride their coattails.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 20, 2014, 11:33:23 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on March 20, 2014, 10:16:26 pmIt's not. You can trademark names etc people have been using for years. Although that does not stop the existing companies using that name or look if they have a trade history of using it. Just like that kickstarter company trademarking my uCurrent name, they can't stop me using that name as I have a trade history with it.In this case if a company could show that they have a trade history of using the same yellow holster with dark meter or whatever, then legally Fluke couldn't touch them. Although that certainly doesn't mean they can't try, or that custom would give two hoots about it. Customs will simply follow the trade injunction, and not even ask questions later."Trade dress" is a very tricky issue, and is not strictly covered by the trademark, and even with both teams of lawyers blasting at 40 paces it can take years and many millions to resolve. As usual, the deepest pockets usually wins.

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 20, 2014, 11:36:10 pm
content: Quote from: TopLoser on March 20, 2014, 10:36:01 pmYou can value your inventory however you want - but good luck explaining your method to the tax man or the insurance company if your valuation does not meet industry standards.And the industry standard for retailers is to value the inventory at retail price. 2,000 meters with a retail price of $15 are worth $30,000. That's the reality.The $10k wholesale cost is not deducted from the $30k - that doesn't make sense unless Sparkfun was being reimbursed the $10k - which they have stated they aren't.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 20, 2014, 11:38:16 pm
content: Quote from: c4757p on March 20, 2014, 10:23:24 pmI didn't think anyone was talking that?I've been mentioning it, as I mentioned in my original post, not because it's "prior art", but because it could show that Fluke weren't the first to do it, in which case they could just be copycats. But that in no way invalidates their trade dress rights. "Prior art" in this case would give that company a right to continue using that trade dress if they have also have a history with it.

author: TopLoser
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 20, 2014, 11:46:11 pm
content: Quote from: Corporate666 on March 20, 2014, 11:36:10 pmKeep grasping at those straws.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 20, 2014, 11:53:48 pm
content: Quote from: Corporate666 on March 20, 2014, 11:36:10 pmAt the end of the day, when it all comes out in the wash, all the tax man cares about it your expenses and your income, giving you a net profit that they tax.Sparkfun lost $10K, or whatever the cost actually was + the disposal.If they are smart they will make up for that in extra sales some how, but that's hard to quantify. Plus of course the publicity, which is worth a lot more than that $10K in advertising, but again, that's hard (impossible) to quantify. Same thing for Fluke, this is the best money they ever spent. Again, not $30K worth, maybe $10K in inventory cost.Start the conspiracy theories, both of them set this up as a marketing gimmick

author: all_repair
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 20, 2014, 11:53:59 pm
content: Quote from: Corporate666 on March 20, 2014, 11:36:10 pmI do not believe Sparkfun's claims. The meter does look alike as a Fluke to me, not just a simple color-combo. And cost to them is not equal to loss to them. Retail price as cost, kidding who? And the supplier shall and will refund money (may not be full) if they want the future business from Sparkfun. People here who are very knowledgeable are aware of the weakness of the clones, but Fluke's concern is real and has been shown by Dave in his blow up tests.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 20, 2014, 11:57:35 pm
content: I do hope Sparkfun follow up on exactly what they got and how many.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2014, 12:21:13 am
content: I'm a little puzzled by the "disposal cost" thing.Can they really charge you to dispose of stuff they decide not to allow in?Do they offset any recovered value? e.g. scrap metal & other recyclables (probably not applicable here, maybe the batteries) but certainly would for some types of items.AIUI they could legally re-export it. Would shipping as a charity donation to another country cost less than disposal?

author: peter.mitchell
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2014, 12:26:37 am
content: Quote from: mariush on March 20, 2014, 02:05:26 amI'd go the UT-136 over that, the UT136s 10A range is fused, less likely to blow something up, plus, they can sell fuses then!

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2014, 12:32:32 am
content: Quote from: BravoV on March 20, 2014, 04:20:33 amLOL ... Fluke just turned the SparkFun amateur PR campaign from supposed to be a noble crusade like David vs Goliath into a pesky "Bug" crushing scene.Damn ... there goes my advertisement down to the toilet because of a massive mood swing at the mob "steered" by Fluke.Damn you Fluke, now I'm turning into hater .... alone.

author: linux-works
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2014, 12:44:40 am
content: good on fluke for seizing the moment and doing the right thing.for this little bit of money (to them) they just rebought their reputation with a lot of us. at least in terms of business ethics. their test gear has always been first rate, but this PR move really shines the light in a positive way, on them.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 21, 2014, 12:59:52 am
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on March 21, 2014, 12:21:13 amOf course they can, it's the US government, they can do anything they like. Of course, being 'murica it's likely given to a US private contractor for disposal, and they likely send you the big bill, I'm surprised it's so cheap actually.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2014, 01:14:36 am
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on March 21, 2014, 12:21:13 amImporting shipments of cargo can be quite expensive. Not only are there the customs brokerage fees and so forth, but if there are any delays in retrieving your consignment from the port for any reason (e.g. because customs hold it for inspection), your consignment is likely to be moved to a long term warehouse with significant storage fees.

author: true
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2014, 06:13:19 am
content: Quote from: peter.mitchell on March 21, 2014, 12:26:37 amI second the UT-136 - use one regularly at work for checking small currents, 5 to 24V power adapters, checking resistances and verifying caps, other little things. Been beaten up and still looks and works like new.The only thing I miss from having my Flukes in the field is the magnetic mount to be honest. (I'd rather keep my good meters at home, where coworkers / other trades / customers won't steal them) Maybe I'll hack a strong magnet into one and post photos...

author: aargee
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2014, 06:17:14 am
content: Well as for the colour thing... a number of years ago here in Australia, the chocolate giant Cadbury's took a smaller chocolate manufacturer, Darrell Lea to court over them daring to wrap one of their chocolate bars in a purple wrapper.They didn't China-fy it by trying to make it look like a Cadbury bar - it was just the colour. Cadbury claimed the purple was "Cadbury purple" and no body was allowed to use it. The case was dismissed... so I think building a case on a single colour alone will not stand scrutiny.

author: ve7xen
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2014, 07:06:30 am
content: Quote from: BravoV on March 21, 2014, 12:32:32 amIt's a suave move from Fluke, but they're not really recanting here with their abuse of trademark law, so I'll give them credit for having a competent PR team, but it definitely doesn't give them a free pass on the actual issue at hand.This trademark should not have been granted. Any potential 'trademark" was already diluted before they even got around to registering it, and by now that ship has most definitely sailed. That being if you ignore the fact that it should not be possible to register such a generic trademark as one for a combination of two colours, and the fact that the actual ITC filing doesn't make any sense, claiming "Color is not claimed as a feature of the mark." and then claiming the colour scheme is the mark.So yeah, typical corporate dick-itude, but at least they're using lube.

author: XynxNet
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2014, 07:31:19 am
content: Fluke should think about the message they are sending with such a trademark!"Our customers are so stupid that they confuse every grey-yellow multimeter with a fluke"

author: Wytnucls
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2014, 08:15:40 am
content: The funny thing is that all these cheap grey and yellow meters are still available directly from China. All Fluke is doing is hurting the small retailers in the US.Perhaps Fluke should spend their energy on having their trademark recognized in China instead:http://www.unitalen.com/html/unitalen/report/15961-1.htm2. What kinds of signs can be Chinese registered trademarks?According to Chinese Trademark Law, any visual sign, if it can be used to distinguish the goods or service of one natural person, legal entity or any other organization from that of others, including any word, design, letters of an alphabet, numerals, three-dimensional symbol,combinations of colors, and their actual combination, may be filed for registration. What I want to further mention or emphasize is, before 2002, any three-dimensional symbol orcombination of colorscannot be a registered trademark in China. The law has changed since 2002. So far, Chinese Trademark Law does not allow sound marks, smell marks or other kinds of marks to be registered and the Chinese Trademark Office still doesn’t accept these types of trademarks’ registration applications.

author: AndyC_772
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2014, 08:28:44 am
content: There's no point filing for trade mark protection in a country which isn't one of your major markets, and where you're unlikely to be able to get that protection enforced anyway. Trying to enforce a trade mark in China would be an expensive, and pointless, game of whack-a-mole, more than likely played without a hammer.The object of the exercise is not to prevent meters from looking like Flukesat all, it's to prevent meters from looking like Flukes in markets where people might actually have bought a real Fluke instead.

author: iloveelectronics
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2014, 08:44:19 am
content: Quote from: AndyC_772 on March 21, 2014, 08:28:44 amI don't know how significant the China market is to Fluke but you'd be surprised in how highly regarded and popular Fluke DMM's are if you visit some Chinese forums on the topic. Obviously not many people in China can actually afford the higher end products but the Chinese made 17B's and used 187's and 189's or even 289's are extremely popular!

author: Wytnucls
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2014, 08:54:38 am
content: Don't kid yourself, Fluke has a significant market share in China (>30%) for DMMs and China is responsible for 7% of revenue for the whole Danaher group.http://www.google.fr/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CCgQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fphx.corporate-ir.net%2FExternal.File%3Fitem%3DUGFyZW50SUQ9NDM5NzM4fENoaWxkSUQ9NDYxMzM2fFR5cGU9MQ%3D%3D%26t%3D1&ei=qf0rU6DNMMqc0AWd94GYAw&usg=AFQjCNG9Og2lXrrvZjce3L1RxU0CTcXnZA&bvm=bv.62922401,d.d2k

author: Bored@Work
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2014, 10:05:10 am
content: Quote from: Wytnucls on March 21, 2014, 08:15:40 amYes, and if you import a single one on your own into the US, and if you happen to run into a bored customs inspector, or an inspector in training looking for some training material , it might be confiscated, too.Importing 2000 at once made Sparkfun - the not so mom and pop shop - appear on the radar. Luck might have it that your import might not show up.QuoteSparkfun is not that small a retailer. And hurting people selling contender's stuff is a good business move. It happens all the time. Welcome to capitalism.QuoteThat is the typical "but officer, the others are speeding even faster" excuse.

author: saturation
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2014, 11:12:55 am
content: I second Dave on this, I've never seen such a meter in 30+ years of being in electronics. Before the Fluke 80 series was introduced DMM typically had this look, many were copies of the Fluke 8020 design:In 1988-9 when the 80 was introduced Fluke's line was this, the look of various models were copied by a host of big names like Tektronix, HP, Beckman Industrial, Triplett etc., :Which in the 21st Century was similar to excavortee's collection photo:For details on Fluke model and changes, see his info page:http://www.ebay.com/gds/Fluke-Meters-80-Type-Models-and-Series-/10000000007491382/g.htmlQuote from: EEVblog on March 20, 2014, 10:11:50 pm

author: dr.diesel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2014, 11:16:30 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on March 20, 2014, 11:57:35 pmNo list yet, but here is their plan:https://www.sparkfun.com/news/1430

author: saturation
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2014, 11:18:45 am
content: Great links W, thanks. At least it shows how important the 'look' and need to solidify its reputation are.Quote from: Wytnucls on March 21, 2014, 08:54:38 am

author: Bored@Work
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2014, 11:40:25 am
content: Quote from: dr.diesel on March 21, 2014, 11:16:30 amQuoteSo to all those angry facebitchtwitterers, or whatever, sorry, no free Fluke for you,unless you happen to be at the right place at the right time at the right age somewhere in the US.

author: Rasz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2014, 11:40:54 am
content: Quote from: c4757p on March 19, 2014, 02:45:30 pmThats funny, because "Fluke look" was white/gray, then it was gray, then yellow, its gray on yellow only in last 10 years.Trademark is from 2003, yet that look was GENERIC in 2002 already. Fluke received trademark for a design that was generic,retroactively.Fluke went yellow in the nineties? they were still all gray in the eighties. yellow holster with gray meter was 2000 something. Trademark was 2003.Do a google search for yellow holster with date limit set to 2002, you will find plenty of multimeters looking just like fluke.Yellow meter with contrasting color 'holster' from the ~1940 :http://www.stevenjohnson.com/apparatusdesignco/index.html

author: saturation
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2014, 01:29:37 pm
content: The yellow on grey via holster look first appeared with Fluke 80 series, which appeared in 1988-9. At the time, IIRC no one made DMM with a holster of that type as the DMMs of the period mostly looked like the Popular Electronics cover I posted. If someone recalls a meter that had a similar look before 1989 just give me a name and I can find a photo from my library.Quote from: Rasz on March 21, 2014, 11:40:54 am

author: Excavatoree
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2014, 02:13:54 pm
content: For some reason, I thought the yellow holstered 70 series pre-dated the 80, but I think I was wrong about that.The 70 series used the more squared-off, green holsters until the 80 series came out, then they switched to the yellow or grey holster with the matching rounded theme of the new 80 series.The difference in the LCD surround of the 70 series is the key - if it's grey, it's the newer yellow or grey holster. If it's green (well, greenish gray, like the older cases) it had the older holster.I can't keep this stuff straight - too many details for my mind to keep up with.I like the yellow meters in grey holsters.

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 21, 2014, 06:52:54 pm
content: Quote from: TopLoser on March 20, 2014, 11:46:11 pmYou should learn how accounting actually works in business. It matters not how you think things should be valued, just as it matters not how people think trademarks should work - what actually does matter is the real world. And in the real world, retailers value their inventory at retail price.Anyone who has been involved in serious retailing, or taken our an insurance policy covering business issues, or dealt with a distributor who retails products, knows that this is how items are valued. It's just the way things work in the real world.

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 21, 2014, 06:58:53 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on March 20, 2014, 11:53:48 pmHave to totally disagree with you Dave.That retailers inventory is valued at retail price is as standard in the business world as shops taking cash in exchange for goods. The $20k loss of profit is a very real loss, because Sparkfun is a grown up enough business to know what stock they need and when, and know they can sell it.I'm not sure about the $10k in hard cash lost (+ disposal) being worth the publicity. I think us tech folks always assume companies come out ahead in the end... I've seen people do the same to you, suggesting that you earn so much or get so much stuff free that any frustration you express is acting or some such, but I know how hard it is to run a business and you know it too - so I am almost positive that, given the choice today between letting things happen as they did or going back in time and having customs allow the shipment through, they'd choose to let the shipment through.We'll never know thoughIn the end, I am very happy Fluke came out looking like roses, absolutely beautiful handling of the situation - mega kudos to them.

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 21, 2014, 07:03:01 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on March 21, 2014, 12:21:13 amYes they really charge you and no they don't offset recovered value against your costs. I think being a designated disposal facility for CBP is probably one of the sweetest gigs around. Years ago, I knew someone who drove a truck for one of those disposal companies. Back then they were less strict about chain of custody, and this guy got staggering amounts of loot... off the top of my head, big screen TV's, top of the line skis and boots, clothes, electronics and more - all brand new.Exporting is allowed but there are so many fees involved (they can basically name their price as they have you over a barrel) that unless it's high value items, it's often not worth it.

author: Rasz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2014, 07:05:51 pm
content: Quote from: saturation on March 21, 2014, 01:29:37 pmthats even worse, trademarks are not first to ineven^^^design. Basically fluke let that design become generic for 20 years, and then all of a sudden received trademark for it.

author: FrankT
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2014, 09:41:55 pm
content: Quote from: saturation on March 21, 2014, 01:29:37 pmNot grey and yellow, just yellow, but this is still my go to meter I got in the mid-80s...http://www.radiomuseum.org/r/metex_digital_multimeter_m_3650.html

author: TriodeTiger
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2014, 12:25:08 am
content: There were two threads but I think no one has mentioned this yet:https://www.sparkfun.com/news/1430QuoteI suppose I do agree on the close lookalikes (certainly not that crazy manual ranging monster that was mistaken).. but how many of these multimetres are being trashed - is the real question.. if their 'well intentions' matter here.What are your thoughts?(I'd love one of those, by the way,)

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 23, 2014, 01:19:43 am
content: Quote from: ve7xen on March 21, 2014, 07:06:30 amAs I understand it Fluke did NOT trademark the colours. They are claiming the colours are "trade dress", so nothing was actually "granted" here in terms of Trademark. It's just that no one has bothered to challenge the trade commission exclusion order which Fluke got issued.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 23, 2014, 01:21:37 am
content: Quote from: FrankT on March 21, 2014, 09:41:55 pmYes, as I mentioned before, yellow meters were common before Fluke did their first yellow meter. They are claiming yellow outline/holster/trim with dark/gray/back meter.Extech are obviously getting away with an orange holster.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 23, 2014, 01:43:57 am
content: Quote from: Excavatoree on March 21, 2014, 02:13:54 pmI can't find any evidence of that in my magazine ad archives. Seems the yellow holster did start with the 80 series in the late 80's, and Fluke didn't change the 70 series holster to yellow until a year or two later.

author: turbo!
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 13, 2014, 03:43:51 am
content: This is one of those items where determining infringement is not black and white. It isn't clear like products that use use a rip off firmware code bit by bit except the company name, specific algorithms or features protected by current patents.You have China playing the game of how far they can get away it and you have American companies playing how far they can get away with asserting infringement or trying to patent the use of common knowledge in specific application. For example, Apple asserting patent to magnetic power plug for laptops which has been used for decades in portable appliances.A good example of predatory practice used by many big companies is to try to suppress businesses who compete against them or don't like their products sold by someone they haven't authorized. Big companies use spurious intellectual property claims to suppress sellers on eBay all the time. Usually to eliminate commercial quantities of their products offered outside of dealer network they control in order to artificially maintain prices (Retail Price Maintenance, fancy phrase for price fixing) or feels that the products are "similar" and therefore infringing. Not liking is not the same as illegal. Even if Fluke matches the confiscated DMMs with their products for this company to donate(which isn't a competitive threat) or to sell(most likely on Fluke's terms with contractual obligations such as abiding by minimum advertising price policy...), I personally see it as leveraging the resources they have as a large corporation to just give away 300 units of DMMs in order to wipe away competing forces against them(a larger fish getting eaten by even larger fish...)Ferraris are often characterized by bright red paint which they call Ferrari red. Dark DMM with yellow trim is like asserting ownership to two door vehicle with four black tires and red paint and using reasoning like those who don't know much about cars might see the "sporty" red car and Ferrari as comparable and dilute their brand. Those FIUKE, FUKE using a case that was casted from the original is a clear violation. I think it would be obvious to any reasonable audience. Of course, then there is a spectrum of grey zone between the obvious copycat vs stretching the limit of black/grey and yellow combination.

author: scientist
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 13, 2014, 04:22:16 am
content: Sparkfun doesn't want to bother with legal fees. $30k is chump change to them, but a lawsuit could cost millions.

author: Noise Floor
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2014, 01:16:12 am
content: In the end it looks like both groups came out ahead and nothing with the "system" changed. "Same as it ever was."

author: Bored@Work
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2014, 05:33:59 am
content: Quote from: Noise Floor on May 22, 2014, 01:16:12 amActually, sparkfun lost. Should they ever get caught again importing a few thousand yellow/gray meters they no longer have the excuse of "but we didn't know", and Fluke is unlikely to bail them out again.Fluke won. At the cost of some small change for them they got their message across. Not only to sparkfun, but to other importers, too, who happened to read the story.And why should a low-profile, small change, single event change a system that is a few thousand years old? Controlling imports and exports, charging customs or denying the import of unwanted goods aren't exactly new inventions.

author: Noise Floor
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2014, 04:07:30 pm
content: Quote from: Bored@Work on May 22, 2014, 05:33:59 amLooking at the event timeline, I base my comment from the point where SF had the equipment seized with no recourse on that equipment loss. By making a spectacle about it they achieved massive brand publicity and got Fluke to give them a bunch of product at no cost which in turn they donated getting them further branding goodwill. I don't view this as a loss by any means. If you are saying they would be better off had they never got caught, that is a possibility, but again, I was speaking from the point they had the equipment seized.QuoteAgreed.QuoteI was referring to over arching brand likeness protections like the color "yellow", not the customs system as a whole. Was just trying to highlight that given the amount of energy applied to this case, there appears to be no resulting changes in how these things are applied. Depending on one's view this is either because the system works as it should or its a bureaucratic maze that will likely never change.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2014, 04:54:56 pm
content: QuoteWhat's so wrong about killing sparkfun?

author: dr.diesel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2014, 07:14:27 pm
content: Quote from: dannyf on May 22, 2014, 04:54:56 pmWTF, Seriously? You must know something I don't, Nate get caught clubbing kittens or snorting lines off a srippers ass, or similar?

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2014, 07:54:52 pm
content: QuoteI don't know - as I never looked - but that doesn't mean he didn't (or did) any of that or worse.Still, that doesn't answer the question: why is it so wrong to kill sparkfun?

author: dr.diesel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2014, 07:59:46 pm
content: Quote from: dannyf on May 22, 2014, 07:54:52 pmBecause arbitrarily killing is bad.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2014, 08:02:51 pm
content: Agree. But, you have to show that this killing of sparkfun is arbitrary.

author: dr.diesel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2014, 08:04:17 pm
content: Quote from: dannyf on May 22, 2014, 08:02:51 pmWe are innocent until proven guilty, not the other way around.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2014, 08:08:59 pm
content: That's why fluke is doing (threatening to take sparkfun to court), right? Fluke isn't "killing" sparkfun, as in your definition.But still, even if killing here is in the sense of commercially crushing sparkfun, what's so bad about it?

author: dr.diesel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2014, 08:10:28 pm
content: Quote from: dannyf on May 22, 2014, 08:08:59 pm

author: Skimask
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2014, 06:49:15 pm
content: Was at AVC2014 yesterday.Saw one of these meters sitting on the "demo" table.The SF person I talked to said they didn't have any idea that this matter had drawn so much 'attention' in the community.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2014, 09:00:32 pm
content: Quote from: Noise Floor on May 22, 2014, 01:16:12 amWho said it's wrong?Is undesired.