Best Re-flow Oven for Hobby electronics - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / beginners

author: FotatoPotato
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2018, 05:36:25 am
content: Hi all, I'm starting work on a pcb that will have a 500 ball BGA chip and I need a re-flow oven in-order to solder it to the board . I did look on amazon but all the ovens I saw looked cheap, were from random Chinese sellers and the reviews were not that food so I was just wondering If you guys know of any good quality re-flow overs for under $500Thanks

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 01, 2018, 08:45:45 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on April 01, 2018, 05:44:23 amI have one of these at work, the controller is exactly the same as the smaller ones with 1s on the display actually being 1.5s, I dont see any hot air ? but it does have move even heat with more bulbs closer together. On mine one of the two fans has failed which is not a bad thing as the one left pushes heat around a bit and not much out.I have another oven myself now made by a another company and new on the market, it does have an internal fan that moves air around as well as the exhaust fan.

author: chris_leyson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2018, 09:35:55 am
content: The toaster oven from Beta Layout is €389, or €489 with the magnetic stencil workbench.https://uk.beta-layout.com/estore/order_product_details.html?p=740Mine arrived this week but I haven't tried it out yet, I will have to reflow some boards with QFN packages and didn't fancy risking a hot plate and hot air. I've done a few repairs with hot air in the past and it isn't easy. Dave reviewed the same oven a while back and gave it a thumbs up.together with a follow up videoThere is also an article on their website about soldering BGA packages in a pizza oven, in German.https://uk.beta-layout.com/download/rk/RK-10590_702.pdf. It's important to use a heat spreader underneath the PCB so I'm going to try some thin brass sheet. Will let you know how it goes.EDIT: Oven is 230V but it should work OK on 220V split phase.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 01, 2018, 08:35:56 pm
content: Quote from: blueskull on April 01, 2018, 09:08:53 amWell haven't taken one apart but I don't believe it. They just make 3 sizes of the same basic design.

author: KE5FX
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2018, 09:21:16 pm
content: I recently bought a T962A and added the ESTechnical aftermarket controller. Not a whole lot of experience with it yet, but I've used it to solder a board with a 400-pin Searay connector and it seemed to do OK.The ESTechnical controller makes a huge difference. Moving the graph to the PC is helpful in itself. The T962 can't control the temperature of the board very closely, but the graph allows you to tweak the process to get something resembling the desired slope, e.g.:The USB interface is flaky and requires frequent reconnection and/or power cycling, but the controller itself is solid. It really makes the most of the oven's limited hardware design. In a couple of weeks I'll run a board with an 0.8-mm BGA through it, and we'll see how it holds up. But I have no reason to think it won't do OK.Quote from: chris_leyson on April 01, 2018, 09:35:55 amI haven't heard this before, any pointers?The advice I've read (and followed with the Searay board) was actually to elevate the board in the drawer slightly by putting a couple of PCB scraps beneath it. The ESTechnical controller uses the fan to provide air circulation during operation, so this seems like a good way to ensure the whole board is preheated adequately.

author: jmelson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2018, 09:57:05 pm
content: I've been using a large GE toaster oven from Wal Mart for over 10 years. It has a wire rack in the middle, and two horizontal elements below, and two above the rack. While the heat distribution is not perfect, it seems to be within maybe 10 - 15 C worst case across all the boards. i often do 4, 6 or even 8 smaller boards at one time, and have found a peak temp of 247 C is good for lead free, and 230 C is good for leaded solder.I poke a micro thermocouple into a plated-through hole in one of the PCBs to read the temperature. I got a ramp and soak temp controller on eBay, this allows you to program temperature ramps and hold at certain temps to get the desired profile.I have done well over 1000 boards with this setup.Jon

author: flydrive
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: February 12, 2019, 12:10:20 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on April 01, 2018, 08:45:45 amI know this is an old post but do you mind saying what make of oven you were talking about here nearly a year ago? One with an internal fan would be great, else I'm modding a T962A or even C.

author: sairfan1
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 12, 2019, 02:49:43 pm
content: I'm hobbyist, not very extensive user. I found this oven way better than other available options. There are some good users in the thread i hope they will also give their input.

author: Kasper
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 12, 2019, 04:36:10 pm
content: I have worked at 3 places that use toaster ovens for soldering prototypes. They all used basic ovens (2 were IR, not sure about the third) and manually changed the temp every 1 minute. Put the PCBs on a piece of paper on a metal tray. It seemed to work fine but I never did a thorough test of the solder quality.If you just want to try it cheaply before you spend hundreds of dollars, buy a used toaster oven off your local classifieds. If you are near any post secondary school, there should be lots for sale.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 12, 2019, 06:19:59 pm
content: Mine is made by Huaqi Zhengbag and "Zhengbag" is a good description of the noise my fuse board made when I plugged it in. After taking it apart I improved the earthing fearful for my life and after an argument with them they assured me they were taking my advice about earthing each metal panel and ensuring better clearances. Mine is the ZB2520HL

author: Peabody
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 12, 2019, 07:03:57 pm
content: I'm finishing up a project that uses the $10 Walmart hot plate and a $5 circular saw blade as a reflow device for smaller boards. See attached. While I did design a controller, it doesn't need one. You just turn on the power twice during the relfow process for specific periods of time, and it seems to reflow fine with no overshoots, and nothing is scorched. It requires a minor mod to the hot plate. I hope to have a Github repo available, and possibly a video, within a week or so, and will post when that's done in case anyone is interested. It is the lowest cost, simplest system I've seen. I guess larger boards could possibly be done by moving the board around during the reflow process to "share" the center cool spot evenly. And obviously, it doesn't work for boards with SMD components on both sides.

author: flydrive
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: February 12, 2019, 09:19:15 pm
content: Quote from: sairfan1 on February 12, 2019, 02:49:43 pmsorry but which oven do you mean, there's been a few mentioned in this thread so I couldn't work out which you have.

author: flydrive
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: February 12, 2019, 09:31:34 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on February 12, 2019, 06:19:59 pmThanks - I'd seen those but couldn't find one single review anywhere saying whether they were actually significantly different from the T962* series, especially with regards their advertised claim that they are 'convection + IR'. They look similar enough I've been assuming they too just have a 4-bar electric fire at the top and use the fan only for cooling. Clearly they suffer from some of the same build issues.I already have the toaster oven setup and it's worked just fine for leaded work up to the size the thing fits. However I'm moving onto larger boards, 300x250 or so and some limited BGA work isn't far away. Toaster ovens I have tested which are large enough to take a board that size thus far either don't get nearly hot enough, or don't get there fast enough. They tend to triple the volume and add 50% to the power as far as I can tell. Hence my search for something custom designed for PCB work, even if it's going to require modification.

author: wilfred
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2019, 09:43:58 am
content: I found this toaster oven for A$20 at Officeworks. I like it because it is small with the elements closer to the tray than is possible in larger ovens. It is 650Watts. Does anyone have experience with it for reflow? I'll take opinions too. It is super cheap but doesn't hurt to ask first.Thankshttps://www.officeworks.com.au/shop/officeworks/p/heller-professional-stainless-steel-6l-toaster-oven-hpovt6#reviewsBTW I saw this one at Kew East store.

author: FriedMule
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2019, 11:44:32 am
content: I think that the absolute best, non pro, home tinkerer oven, is one with forced air.The ovens that are more like a toaster with glowing heating-elements is in my opinion, fare from ideal. Try to get a "real" oven, like a combo oven with forced air.

author: jmelson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 05, 2019, 10:40:47 pm
content: Quote from: wilfred on April 04, 2019, 09:43:58 amWell, this looks similar to one I have used for over ten years. Mine has two heating elements that run left-right above the tray, and two below. I spliced in a thermocouple ramp-and-soak controller in series with the thermostat. I poke the thermocouple into a plated through hole in the board, so the control loop is actually controlling temperature on at least one spot of the board. It has worked very well, and I've done close to 2000 boards with it, I think. Mine has a convection fan in it, but it doesn't really move much air at all, so I don't think it actually accomplishes anything.Jon

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 05, 2019, 11:11:21 pm
content: Air is a poor conductor of heat so moving the heated air to the board makes a lot of difference.

author: wilfred
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2019, 11:06:29 am
content: I went and bought one. But I certainly don't recommend it for food. When starting from cold it goes to 295 Celcius and switches off after 4min22sec. Then it cools to 136 Celcius and switches on. It takes a minute and a half to get back to 295 Celcius. And the cycle repeats.I set up a DMM to measure the temperature and a video camera to watch it. The temp probe (EEVBlog 235 DMM) was in free air just above the wire rack.I'd take it back if I wanted it for food. There is another review on the Officeworks website which said something similar so I don't think my unit is particularly defective. It's still only two samples of course so it is hard to read too much into that. But you'd think it would stay on for the entire 15minute timer cycle and vary the temp by a lot less than 160C.But since I don't want it for food and intend to put a PID temperature controller to drive it I thought I'd seek further opinions. I'll see if I have time to plot a graph of the time/temp tomorrow. BUt for now I can say at full power it will heat from 136C to 295C in 94 seconds. I'll try manually holding it from 250-270C and see if that doesn't trip the thermal cuttoff. Do you think that is satisfactory for solder reflow?I think it might be OK but I've never built a PID controller or a reflow oven.If it is OK I can say that since it is about the size of a loaf of sliced bread it would be good for a space constrained lab that does only one or two boards at a time. It seems pretty well built. It just doesn't work for its intended purpose.Edit:Here is a plot of time/temp.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 07, 2019, 11:28:13 am
content: I have a little fan oven that i use for food, i have noted that it is very "loose" on the temperature control as turning it up after it has cut power to the element on the current setting does not turn the element back on so it must be greatly overshooting the set temperature and have a big hysterysis. Works fine for food though.

author: Doctorandus_P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2019, 03:28:59 pm
content: For me I would not consider a pre-built oven like the T962.I've heard some bad reveviews about un-even heating, but those reviews are 10+ year old and with a new version those reviews are unreliable.The main reason I would not buy such an oven is that you can not see what is happening with your solder job.And if you can not see what is happening, you can not adjust to improve it and you can only see the end result.For me I can see a few options.I would consider a hot plate, which heats the PCB from the underside. The cheapest version of this would be a simle frying pan on a kitchen stove. I would not reccomend this for long term use, but I've heard success stories about it and it seems like a good idea to try it to get some experience on how it works. There are some relatively cheap hot plates directly from Ali / Ebay / China, and there are also some on Tindie, or started with a kickstarter.Another option that looks good is to use a (kitchen) oven with a glass window. These need a fan for heat distribution, and you have to upgrade the temperature control with a thermocouple and a temperature controller, but there are lots of opern source projects of these (check github) and also kits and pre-build controllers.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 07, 2019, 03:46:10 pm
content: My Zhenbang oven is a marked improvement. It has an air circulating fan. All of these IR ovens have a tiny glass window that has always worked for me. I just did some really heavy boards where I had to watch for it to reflow as it was taking longer than the standard profiles allows.

author: Doctorandus_P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2019, 04:04:42 pm
content: Simon says exactly why you want to be able to monitor the soldering process, either via a "frying-pan" option or a glass window in the oven.Different boards need different soldering profiles, and with a closed oven this is much more difficult to get right.

author: jmelson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2019, 04:35:00 pm
content: Quote from: wilfred on April 07, 2019, 11:06:29 amYes, the built-in thermostat is pretty awful, it is more of a power regulator than an actual temperature measuring device, at least on mine. I never expected it to work, and immediately bypassed it with a thermocouple temperature controller and solid state relay.Well, the problem is you want a controlled temperature of the BOARD, not the air in the oven. I didn't know until I started doing this, there is almost NO RELATION between the two. The air heats slowly (I guess due to the thermal mass of the oven's walls) but a board in the middle will heat quickly, due to IR transfer. So, I got a big roll of an odd (Type E) thermocouple extension wire and a ramp-and-soak controller on eBay. The micro-size thermocouple wire can be poked into a hole in the PCB to measure actual PCB temperature. The ramp-and-soak controller allows you to program temperature points and time between them, so you set it like :10 C : 3 minutes : 180 C : 1 minute : 247 C : 1 minute : 10 C : 2 minutesJon

author: wilfred
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2019, 11:51:04 pm
content: I added the graph of time/temperature to my earlier post. It looks like the oven can heat up hot enough and fast enough to work.The comment about measuring the temperature is one that has always intrigued me. How do you measure the temperature properly to do solder reflow. I'm certainly not claiming any expertise here. I've seen both probe in free air and inserted or in close contact with a PCB. Either way the temperature reading must be the actual probe tip temp. Both seem to work for melting the solder as does just sticking the PCB in a frypan and switching it on.I suspect the profile is more relevant to the survival of the components. But then there are different profiles for different solder.

author: jmelson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2019, 02:42:43 am
content: Quote from: wilfred on April 07, 2019, 11:51:04 pmMy first test was with the thermocouple in air. The boards burned while the temp indicated 230 C or so. So, obviously, the boards absorbed more IR than the thermocouple. Next test, I poked the thermocouple into a plated through-hole in the board, and got beautiful reflow soldering. So, unless you attach the thermocouple to some kind of PC board simulator that has well-matched IR characteristics, you won't get the right temperatures.Jon

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 08, 2019, 04:18:27 am
content: Quote from: Doctorandus_P on April 07, 2019, 04:04:42 pmMade me smile.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 08, 2019, 06:45:03 am
content: Yea, infrared = light, things absorb heat and light differently based on colour and texture. Just had an IR thermometer thrown out at work that they were using for measuring hot water

author: wilfred
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2019, 06:59:03 am
content: Quote from: jmelson on April 08, 2019, 02:42:43 amThanks Jon. I'll keep that in mind.I wanted to avoid fitting the probe into a board each time. I think I might try embedding it into a square of PCB material about 4cm and fixing that to the wire shelf. I've got a tube of Selleys Sealfix that I was going to seal any gaps up with. Maybe I could use it to glue the probe tip to the copper. Just floating ideas here. Stop me if it is stupid. I don't think I'll need to seal gaps up though. The small size of the oven seems to work well getting the heat only 5cm from top and bottom sides.http://www.selleys.com.au/adhesives/household-adhesive/task-specific/seal-fix/

author: Doctorandus_P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2019, 11:46:24 pm
content: I think it is a combination of having a reliable and adjustable temperature profile in combination with some experience and experimentation.Being able to generate a repeatable temperature profile in the oven is one part of the equation.Some use loose thermometers, which can be clipped to the PCB, but if the thermometer is in a fixed position then there wil (hopefully) be some fixed and repeatable temperature difference between the thermometer and the board itself.On the first board this temperature difference is unknown, which is where it becomes handy to be able to live monitor the soldering process.Based on previous experience you make an educated guess, and then tweak it a bit in time or temperature untill it works for the PCB to be soldered.There are also a lot of reasons for temperature differentals in the oven, which makes soldering more difficult.Compare black (good IR absorption) and shiny (Reflect IR) components.Some thick components can also take more time to heat than other thinner components.I've heared some success with usig a frying pan with a layer of fine clean sand, which heats the PCB evenly from the underside.The sand has a high thermal mass, so you probably have to use a plier to take the hot PCB out of the sand to prevent overheating.

author: Nasdrasil
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2019, 06:28:38 pm
content: I know it's been a while in this topic, but I am looking for an oven too. So far the experience has been no fun at all. I quickly discovered there are not a lot of reviews and there is not a lot of info on the cheaper chinese machines. From what I read I should try to avoid a T962. I did just that and found that the qs-5100 was a model that showed some promise. I ordered one from Aliexpress, only to find out they shipped me a T962 with a frontplate that says qs-5100. Did the model change over time? The firmware that my "qs-5100" has is exactely what is on a T962. My "qs-5100" has two green lights instead of red ones, just like a T962. It also has the infamous masking tape. Looks to me like at some point they just changed the qs-5100 to use T962 hardware and hoped people wouldn't notice. Anyway... I shipped it back (which was not cheap) and ordered another one in another Ailexpress shop. Totally exited I came home after a crappy day of work. I knew it had arrived. I open the box and... THESAME darn thing! They clearly show on their store they are selling the qs-5100 that I see reviews of on the web and youtube, but whay they shipped me is AGAIN a converted T962. Just as a heads up to anyone ordering a qs-5100 through Aliexpress... be very alert to what they ship to you. Anyway... for me the qs-5100 is not an option anymore. I did find the T962a+ and I don't know if that is a new model or something, but it has almost no reviews. Some people were saying that it took care of some of the problems the T962(a) has. It also features a usb connection for programming profiles, which is supposed to work on Windows 10. Anyone with some experience on this particular model? What do you guys think?

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 01, 2019, 07:33:36 pm
content: Sounds like someone has come up with a new part number QS-5100 for the old 962, the 962A is a bigger model and then it jumps to a 962C that is massive, I bought one and promply sold it on to work as it was so large but now that I find it easier to manually run the thing I almost prefer it to the smaller oven I got with a temperature controller because the sheer size of the thing makes it react quiker and with a quik on-off of the fans you get a +20C boost in temperature as the hot air from the back is wafted to the front. I did some boards today with inductors that my little oven struggled with but the 962C handled with ease simply due to the power so I would offer that advice to people, think big if you can afford to as it makes life easier than if you are on limited heating capacity.

author: Nasdrasil
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2019, 09:25:57 pm
content: I don't know... some pictures down hereThis is the unit I received twice. This defenately is a T962 even though it says qs-5100 on it. The firmware, the tape, everything points to it.This is the unit I wanted. This is what you will find on the web and on youtube as a qs-5100. This is also what the store showed me as a picture.Finally... this is the T962A+. I don't know much about this oven but it looks interesting. A couple of reviews mention some improvements. That... and I'd like to see the software that fomes with it. Haven't found screencaps so far..

author: flydrive
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2019, 09:50:55 pm
content: That's really frustrating. Aliexpress is usually not too bad .. however in this case it seems the long-running bad reviews of the T962 have caused the manufacturers to start cheating. All my research from a few months ago gave me the conclusion that the QS-5100 really is a different machine made by a different manufacturer altogether. It's not a re-badged T962, it's a similar size but has entirely different electronics, entirely different software and good insulation. It was also very hard to find and more expensive to the point I gave up looking. Looking today I can't find it anywhere I trust, there's no aliexpress vendor I've seen so far today that appears to have the whole range of Qinsi ovens which leads me right to believe they are all selling T962s with a fake faceplate on and hoping people don't send them back. I will say if you find a QS-5100 at the kind of price you'd usually pay for T962, it's not a 5100.I'd say post the names of the stores but they change names on a regular basis so it's probably not worthwhile.

author: Nasdrasil
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2019, 06:12:54 am
content: I could post the names of the stores. I really think this is a way for them to try and get rid of the T962 units. They know they are bad and they also know people prefer other models. I will return my second order today. What I did notice is that the return shipping adres is thesame on both parcels. Now I'm no expert, but these two ovens came from different stores and need to be returned to thesame location?Anyways... In the mean time I'm over 100 euro's into this story on return shipping alone that I could have spend on components for my projects. Contacting the seller is of no use since they won't reply to my messages. Seriously bummed out about it.I can't seem to find a "real" qs-5100 anywhere. I will try to see what comes up with more searches on the T962A+. Once I get over this waisted money and if by some miracle I gather up the courage to purchase this model I'll post some pictures on here to let people know what this model is able to do.

author: flydrive
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2019, 07:03:32 am
content: I did some more searching today and I can no-longer find the Qinsi ovens on Aliexpress. There used to be a couple of places which sold several machines from their lineup, enough different products I believed they were real. All those links are now 'no-longer available'.I'm absolutely sure you're right that the sellers are just putting 'QS-5100' as the name and re-badging the old T962s which are pretty much the same size and you are probably right that most of them come from the same place.I think if you want a real Qinsi your only good bet is1) finding a real one on ebay somewhere near you which can be inspected2) buying one direct from Qinsi which you may actually be able to do.I've also researched the T962A+ and all the other variants and as far as I can tell they are all just versions of the same thing. I don't believe they have changed the firmware nor the basic design, they're still IR and still don't circulate air. I looked into the Puhui ones as well, I wasn't convinced they were more than a small step better if at all. There's another thread somewhere about the Puhui, someone purchased one and was going to report back on it but never did.I gave up in the end deciding they were all probably mediocre. I did note the comment from yesterday (I think) about getting one of the large ones and how much more that poster liked it.

author: jhalar
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2019, 07:17:37 am
content: I wasn't convinced about the T962 series or the Qinsi ovens. In the end I decided to convert a toaster oven.I settled on the Sunbeam BT-2600 9L toaster oven and the Whizoo Controleo3 oven controller kit.Looking forward to the day when I test the reflow oven.

author: Nasdrasil
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2019, 07:52:39 pm
content: Concerning the T962A+...hereis a link where they state that it does hot air circulation. I don't know if I can trust that though...

author: sugi
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: August 23, 2019, 09:12:38 am
content: I purchased and reviewed ZB2520HL.https://youtu.be/kkk4h7xrV6A