Linux is soooo close, yet so far. Wishing it was my full time OS - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: rx8pilot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2019, 12:44:20 am
content: Periodically I try to configure a Linux system for my full-time workstation. Perhaps with a few physical or virtual Windows machines for the occasional WINDOWS ONLY utilities.It never seems to work. Even though I love about 99% of Linux, I cannot quite get over Microsoft since I need heavy lift software that is Windows only. Solidworks, Mastercam, Atmel Studio, Office365, Evernote, BOX, Fusion360, as well as a bunch of old and oddball utilities I use for various things. Recently, I thought I could go one more step by moving from BOX to Dropbox - but Dropbox just recently dropped most of the Linux support. I am in the process of eliminating Solidworks and Mastercam, but the replacement is Fusion360 which is Win and MacOS only. LibreOffice is not compatible enough with MS Office, making it har to share certain files.My last Win7Pro machine [10 years old] bit the dust for good, so I am replacing it and my only practical option is Windows 10. Wishing I could adjust my professional needs to avoid Microsoft.How many out there are full-time Linux [any distro]? I know a few, but they seem to have dedicated enormous energy getting it to work for them. An easy example, my P-touch printers are used all the time and it is simple in Windows. No support exists in Linux, so I tried to use a VM with Win7 but hours and hours go by and I have not been able to get the thing to print yet. That is kinda funny because Linux Mint OS managed to fully install from scratch in only a few minutes and fully recognized and supported all my hardware without a hitch. Brother P-Touch printer software? Nope.I think I will, however, be able to cancel my Adobe subscription if I use Kdenlive and Gimp which fit my needs for video and graphics.Need a solution for:EvernoteMS Office [must be totally compatible for sending to the outside business world]Fusion360Box / Dropbox or similar cloud storage functionality

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2019, 01:13:04 am
content: I use Linux as my main OS, but what I do and my typical workflow naturally align with "limitations" of Linux.LibreOffice is pretty compatible with MS office for basic documents. It may not handle your all-in-one customer billing and accounting spreadsheet you've built over 10 years.There is a native Dropbox client.Fusion360 apparently runs in WINE, I have not tried it, but there is a thread about it on this forum.

author: rx8pilot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2019, 01:22:23 am
content: From what I understand...Dropbox is now limited to only clean EXT4. Maybe not a huge problem, but it is hard to trust that they won't dump Linux altogether.Fusion360 on Wine? I have to look closer at that. I wonder if it is problematic, glitchy, slow, etc. Eagle already works natively so that is easy.re: LibreOffice covers a TON of ground.....until it doesn't. Some of my Excel docs use MS only features or otherwise have some issues. Bummer. Running Office365 in a VM may not be too bad though.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2019, 01:38:25 am
content: Have you tried Google Docs? (I suppose it's trading one evil for another...)I use Gentoo on my main PC, same install that I have been using since close to 8 years ago. Nowadays, I tend to go with Arch for machines I want to fine tune and Ubuntu or Debian for what I just want to work.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 06, 2019, 01:46:18 am
content: Quote from: rx8pilot on May 06, 2019, 12:44:20 amI switched to Linux about a year ago from Windows 7 and have never looked back. I currently run Fedora Workstation and although a few minor things needed "tweaking" to get working, it wasn't difficult at all. It was certainly less time consuming than messing around with Windows drivers and settings.I have a Windows 7 VM running under VirtualBox for those small applications which I need (the Dymo LabelWriter software for example) and it runs no problems. I appreciate how easy Fedora was to set up, the simple and clean interface (I use Xfce instead of the default GNOME window manager) and how fast it runs. I absolutely can't stand Windows 10 which is why I made the switch.I have had to change a few things about the way I work, for example moving from Microsoft Office to LibreOffice, but to be honest, I actually prefer it. LibreOffice reminds me of the old versions of Microsoft Office before they stuffed around with it and made it almost unusable. No cloud nonsense, no stupid "ribbons" and best of all, it's free. Not only does LibreOffice do 99% of what MS Office does, but I save everything in its native document formats and users of MS Office can still read and edit my files. I can even natively open and annotate PDF documents without spending money on Adobe products.

author: jmelson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2019, 01:48:25 am
content: Quote from: ataradov on May 06, 2019, 01:13:04 amLibreOffice is horrible, I use TeX. There are a number of wysiwyg front-ends for TeX if you don't want to learn it.LibreOffice can be used to view Microsoft documents, mostly.As for spreadsheets -- when gnumeric came out, it was a complete toy. It is now a VERY capable spreadsheet and I use it a lot. I do parts list/ordering, general ledger and other stuff on it.Jon

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2019, 01:49:40 am
content: Quote from: jmelson on May 06, 2019, 01:48:25 amThe request was to be compatible with MS formats for exchange with outside parties.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2019, 01:51:16 am
content: I'm using Linux more and more, but it has been a very gradual transition and there is always that last 5% that keeps me using Windows. I think if it ever gets to the point where Win7 is no longer viable then I'll find a way to make Linux work but we're not quite there yet. For now I'll settle with using it on my secondary and specific use machines such as my Plex server.I know only one or two Linux guys who are hardcore enough to use it as their *only* OS and as you say it seems to take enormous effort. Fact of the matter is it only takes *one* critical piece of software that needs a certain OS to keep you on that OS. That and inertia and familiarity. Now that Windows isn't really Windows anymore though those reasons are effectively gone.

author: techman-001
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2019, 02:21:36 am
content: Quote from: rx8pilot on May 06, 2019, 12:44:20 amI went fulltime Linux from windows in 1997 (on the desktop), and for the last 3 years have been full time FreeBSD.My experiences lead me to believe that if you have any Windows apps that you're locked into and which wont work in WINE, then a VM on your Unix box is probably the best solution. This way you get the stability of Unix and your windows apps are happy believing they are in a windows environment.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2019, 03:45:13 am
content: I have switched to LibreOffice for home use, but have demonstrated over and over again that it is not compatible enough to share for business purposes with MS Office users. This isn't because of use of macros or esoteric functions, but any complex document with embedded pictures, footnotes or similar features seems to develop some idiosyncrasies as it crosses the MS border.This is not totally fair to LibreOffice since MS Office is often not self compatible. In fact I have used LibreOffice to open MS documents that MS was unable to open. But these foibles are forgiven in the business community. At least here in the US, Linux is not forgiven.

author: edy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2019, 06:16:59 am
content: I moved over to full-time Linux a few years ago (about the time when Win10 started to force itself to download on my Win7 machine). At first I did a dual-boot and worked in both worlds for a while, and eventually stopped using my Win7 system and edited all my documents in my Windows partition using Linux software. And then eventually when I received some new machines I completely wiped them free of Windows and run only Linux. My OS of choice either Ubuntu Studio or Lubuntu (as I have some older machines), although I have dabbled in a few other distros which I boot off USB keys (some of them with persistent storage).As far as being able to function, I've found I could do everything I needed to. GIMP, KDenLive, LibreOffice, RealVNC, Krita, Scribus, Audacity, Blender, lots of other applications work well for publishing, animation, video and images. Don't forget all the command-line tools like ffmpeg, feh, pdf2ps, pstopdf, and so on. Do I have to be 100% compatible with MS Office? Not really. I have VirtualBox running as well with an instance of Win10 when I need to run the odd Win10 software, if WINE isn't able to handle it. I'm not really running any major Windows-only software like the OP mentioned, so I adapt.But *YES* I would say for the vast majority of users... Linux is ready and up to the task... some distros more easily than others. There is still a bit of a learning curve, even with the simplest distros. I like Ubuntu for that reason. It has great hardware support, and easy to install. My bootable USB keys run on just about anything and handle all the installation very easily without having to go crazy figuring out partitioning, setting up dual-boot configurations, etc. You have the power there if you need it, but it also makes it dirt simple.I will give you some examples... I tend to pick up old laptops from friends and colleagues. Currently I am typing this post from an IBM T43 Thinkpad (made circa 2005). It has a 50gb HDD, and originally came with 1 GB installed RAM. I had a few RAM chips in my dust bin so I was able to up it to 2 GB RAM (maximum supported). I just installed Lubuntu 18.10 (32-bit only, it can't handle 64) this past weekend by booting a USB key I made (using unetbootin on another Linux machine of mine) and now I'm putting it through it's paces viewing YouTube, movies, working in LibreOffice, accessing other machines using RealVNC, posting this message to EEVBlog forums, etc. The machine is almost 15 years old! See below:Code:./+o+- edy@edy-t43yyyyy- -yyyyyy+ OS: Ubuntu 18.10 cosmic://+//////-yyyyyyo Kernel: i686 Linux 4.18.0-18-generic.++ .:/++++++/-.+sss/` Uptime: 4h 2m.:++o: /++++++++/:--:/- Packages: 1927o:+o+:++.`..```.-/oo+++++/ Shell: bash 4.4.19.:+o:+o/. `+sssoo+/ Resolution: 1024x768.++/+:+oo+o:` /sssooo. DE: LXDE/+++//+:`oo+o /::--:. WM: OpenBox\+/+o+++`o++o ++////. CPU: Intel Pentium M 1.73GHz @ 1.733GHz [66.0°C].++.o+++oo+:` /dddhhh. GPU: ATI RV370.+.o+oo:. `oddhhhh+ RAM: 463MiB / 1946MiB\+.++o+o``-````.:ohdhhhhh+`:o+++ `ohhhhhhhhyo++os:.o:`.syhhhhhhh/.oo++o`/osyyyyyyo++ooo+++/````` +oo+++o\:`oo++.Anyways, the thing runs beautifully even though it is on almost 15 year old hardware with 2 GB RAM and 50 GB HDD!I have better computers (some newer ASUS machines) given to me which were in various states of disrepair. One was relatively recent model, but had a dead HDD (some 1TB or 750GB drive) so I ripped it out and installed a 120 GB SSD on it for $30 and installed Ubuntu Studio 64 bit. Now it tears through my work no problem. Another ASUS machine I have, same thing.... Ubuntu Studio and away I go. Almost always Ubuntu Studio or Lubuntu (for the older machines... 64-bit or sometimes 32-bit for really old ones).The best part... I boot off a USB key, and within a matter of minutes the machine is installing Ubuntu and everything is there so easily! The the apps are easy to install and configure, most are in the repositories, for a few I have to download deb files but then double-click and they install. All free, no licensing keys to enter, nothing! And on the most recent versions (Ubuntu calls them Bionic Beaver, Cosmic Cuttlefish and now Disco Dingo). I could forego these silly names, but my point is, I can run the latest OS even on 15 year old machines!As always, it depends on your use-case and who you need to inter-operate with, and what necessary software you may need for business/work. Linux doesn't have everything, just like Windows and Mac don't all have everything either. You may be able to get closer with VirtualBox, but your mileage may vary (USB drivers can work through VBox so you can even run Windows-only hardware through it, like certain cameras, sensors, and other proprietary peripherals for which only Windows drivers exist). Obviously VBox performance will be sluggish, but if you are only in there the odd time, it may be worth living the majority of your time in Linux and using VBox or a dual-boot occasionally.Notice that I am not talking about gaming here at all. I'm mostly on older machines anyways, so I'm playing stuff that is still using DirectX 9 or 10 from circa 2005 that will pretty much run using WINE. I have a few GOG games and also stuff from Steam that will run on Linux (newer games). However most newer Windows/Steam games I have no experience with because none of my machines have decent graphics cards, and that also may be a Linux driver limitation (although there are things like PlayOnLinux which apparently have closed the gap greatly).In summary, my entire family is using some form of Linux at this point... every computer, from the kids to wife to myself.... all Linux. Only my son has a dual-boot Win 7/Linux machine which he uses for some games. He likes to play Roblox and that only works in Win 7. Otherwise, most of the older games on his machine could run in WINE as well. This has saved us a great deal of money, because we are able to use older hardware (most of it given to us for free, or extending the life of our own computers) for a much longer productive lifespan. We have Brother and HP printers for which Linux drivers are available, so that is not an issue. All machines will run some form of Chrome or Chromium browser. Best of all, they are FAST.... compared to the same machine running Windows and even a much newer machine running Windows 10, the Linux machines are buttery smooth to work on.

author: sleemanj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2019, 06:37:17 am
content: Linux full time (for i don't know how long, I guess... 1998, maybe earlier), but my needs are simple.I do of course have VMWare machines setup running various windows versions, and indeed macos versions... these all may not be entirely legitimate, I make peace with myself by saying I'm making websites work properly for those companies so they should be thanking me ;-)The only windows software I particularly use (legitimately owned indeed) is Quickbooks, I could, and should, get away from that, but I'm too lazy, and only need to look at it twice a year so there's not much motivation, again just fire up the "Quickbooks VM" which runs some ancient version of XP, hit full screen and it's sitting on one monitor and the rest of my gubbins on the other.My desktop needs are pretty simple though:Browsing: ChromeEmail: roundcube and gmail in browserCoding: kate, and the Arduino IDEEE: DipTrace under Wine3d design: OnShape in browser3d slicing: Cura3d printing: pronterfaceTorrents: transmissionVideo-re-encoding: handbrakeSheets: libreoffice, or google-docsDocs: libreoffice, or google-docsI use only Brother printers, primarily a QL-720 for labels, and an HL-5340D for normal docs, but also have at various times used Brother DCP models, and earlier QL models.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2019, 11:02:01 am
content: I switched a couple of years ago. To run Windows I use Virtualbox. I have no problems printing from Windows to a brother label printer but you have to configure the virtual machine to forward the USB device from Linux to the VM so you can use the Windows drivers.I recommend against using Libreoffice or Google docs to work on MS Office files. I tried both and they just aren't compatible enough with MS Office to work well. Even simpe layout stuff like headings gets messed up quickly (which isn't hard given the more recent MS Office versions seem to suck bad at this as well). BTW I have some customers who use LibreOffice for their documents so I use both LibreOffice and MSOffice.

author: legacy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2019, 11:38:24 am
content: Why not Pdf? And why not Latex for everything else?

author: hli
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2019, 11:48:32 am
content: You can run a real MS Office using Crossover fromCodeweavers. I used it a couple of years ago, and it worked fine (with the exception of Outlook which could not access our Exchange server at work). This might also provide better compatibility with Fusion360.Regarding P-Touch: brother states that they provide CUPS drivers for them, did you try them?As many others here, I'm full time on Linux for several years now. In some parts it means looking for new applications to replace what I was used before. In other instances it means changing my own workflow to accommodate the different tools. I still maintain a Windows in a VM for two programs that do not have a good replacement on Linux (Cypress' PSoC Creator, and my HBCI home banking program), though I'm working on replacing the latter.I have not found Libreoffice to be a problem, but exchanging documents with other parties which are using MS Office might be a problem. For my own documents, I just bit the apple and converted all the functionality over - what specific functions do you miss that MS Office has but Libreoffice doesn't?

author: BradC
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2019, 11:59:46 am
content: I've used a linux desktop & laptop full time since 1996. I also need and use AutoCAD, Revit and a couple of other Windows only CAD packages. For those I use a (currently Windows 7, prior to that it was Server 2003) VM.Back when I was struggling and trying to avoid Windows I contributed some (tiny) code to both WINE (Touch screen compatibility) and Qemu (Absolute positioning PS2 device for the benefit of Win4Lin at the time).I have a Windows VM that sits on a dedicated box. I then use SPICE to access that from my Desktop. That allows me to use Windows dual headed across 2 screens and keep the 3rd for other native stuff.I gave up trying to convince people years ago, but if you know your way around there's pretty much nothing you can't do bearing in mind you really do need a Windows VM for native Windows stuff.I use Libreoffice for pretty much anything that does not require special formatting and interchange with third parties. Where required I use Office 2010 in the VM.I actually find Windows is faster and better behaved in a VM, but that may be down to the known and limited hardware & driver set. Works for me anyway.

author: Ampera
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2019, 12:39:56 pm
content: Oh we're doing screenfetches? Don't mind if I do!http://prntscr.com/nl2761(My screenfetch and a picture of my window manager, WindowMaker!)I have been using Linux for quite a while now, but have been operating in a Unix/Linux only environment for months now, and have basically been using it full time for a hair bit longer than that. My distro is Arch Linux, which I highly recommend if you like to tinker with your OS, want the cutting and bleeding edge of everything (without dependency hell issues, at least I've never had one), It's great for people new to Linux, because if forces you to explore and understand your system, allowing you amazing levels of control over it, and ensuring you know how to fix any and all problems.As for my conversion from Windows, there is one program I have yet to replace or have a port for (besides games but I'll get to that), and that would be Fusion360, which I enjoy using for making 3D printer models. In theory TinkerCAD should work here, but it just makes me want to kill myself by looking at it, and FreeCAD is on an entire plane of worse. Idk if Blender in its infinite utility can be used to do CAD shit, but it's also not all that fun to use. I tried to install it using Wine, but my Wine prefix is currently 64-bit, which I might replace or supplement with a 32-bit one, or figure out what the heck, so when I tried to install it, it stalled on installing the dependencies, and it has no WAN access on any of the programs. This is my own setup, yours likely won't mirror, I just need to stop being lazy and fix it.Besides that literally every task I need a computer for has been filled. Word processing is done by LibreOffice (which just like MS Office is horrifically large and slow :/). Video editing is done with a combination of tools, with DaVinci Resolve for video, Audacity for audio, and ffmpeg for mashing shit together and format conversion. Web browsers are basically all on Linux, and usually run faster and more stable on it. If hardware accelerated video decoding is important to you, however, your only option is chromium (which I use). Image manipulation is done using GIMP, which I have used since Windows. VLC does video and audio files, and I use XFE for file management. OBS is available for screen capture and livestreaming (along with ffmpeg if you wanna get basic). HexChat and Discord also have Linux versions for IRC and (well) Discord alike.I'm not sure if you game, but I do. Steam has made life on Linux for players of video games a breeze. With Proton (which can be used as standalone just like Wine), the vast majority of my otherwise WIndows-only steam library works with incredible performance (often better than any Linux versions), including my VR titles like Pavlov VR. The tool gets regular updates which make it better and better and better. This was probably one of my main concerns on Linux, and I basically don't have to worry about it anymore.So, yeah, do Linux. If you use a lot of high end programs like that, VMs are an option, I suggest QEMU, as it's a fair bit better than my previous favourite VMWare Player, as it doesn't restrict all the fancy features behind corporate level paywalls. I'm not a fan of VMs, but if I really needed a Windows program to run, I'd do a VM before switching back to Windows.

author: LapTop006
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 06, 2019, 12:40:19 pm
content: Quote from: rx8pilot on May 06, 2019, 01:22:23 amThere's a wrapper that works around that issue if you run different FS' (I use XFS for general data partitions which worked just fine). They've also recently just tightened the rules on how many clients free users can have which was enough to finally move me off to something else, so I'm now using Nextcloud (fork of Owncloud) syncing with my own server.

author: techman-001
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2019, 01:10:38 pm
content: Quote from: Ampera on May 06, 2019, 12:39:56 pmOk, I'm inhttps://mecrisp-stellaris-folkdoc.sourceforge.io/modern-forth-development-environment.html#mfdeThis is my FreeBSD workstation, showing schematic capture, flow-charting, code editing, high speed serial terminal to a Cortex-M MCU running near real time Forth. It's showing a completed project which reads any reasonable number of LMT-01 temperature sensors, but only 4 are configured in this projecthttps://mecrisp-stellaris-folkdoc.sourceforge.io/project.3temp.sensors.html#lmt01I've been using Unix the last 22 years (no windows) for business, work, everything. I come from a era when *everything* WAS Unix. Then windows 3.0 came out and we all thought it was a joke, it didn't even network. Windows brought low prices, but it also brought instability, Bsod's, Viruses and Trojans.I still think windows is a cruel joke, a 'white goods os' for the masses, but those that didn't see the previous Unix world have nothing to compare it to, and most are locked into windows ... sadly.The electronics community may be all windows users now, but it wasn't always that way.

author: NorthGuy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2019, 01:15:48 pm
content: I'm getting ready to move to Linux. I've been working on this for two years now. I've found replacement for most software and tested it on different Linux distros, but few things are still left. I am also evaluating distributions - it'll be most likely Linux Mint or may be Debian. I'm still on Win 7, and I won't switch until something goes awry. Then I'll build a new PC and install Linux.Once you have Linux, you can change practically anything - everything comes with source code. For example, I'm going to make changes to the Window Manager to make it easier to tile windows on the screen. Also, if there are any bugs or annoyances, you can always download the source code and fix it - and it is not only Kernel, but practically everything else. If you only have time ...

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2019, 01:19:57 pm
content: Quote from: techman-001 on May 06, 2019, 01:10:38 pmAFAIK many engineers use Linux. I have various customers where the entire engineering department runs Linux all day long. Many CAD vendors have Linux versions of their software or are working on it. A couple of months I bought the latest version of Orcad and lo and behold: the PCB part of the package runs on Linux!

author: techman-001
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2019, 01:30:18 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on May 06, 2019, 01:19:57 pmWow, that's awesome news, thanks for the update!Orcad (DOS) was my first ever Schematic Capture program and I absolutely loved it. At the time, around 1987 it was about $500 AUD and we all took turns using the work version.When I found gEDA gSchem on Linux around 1997 I felt right at home as it was so similar and blindingly fast, just like Orcad under DOS was. gSchem remains my favorite Schematic Capture 22 years later. I feed netlists from gSchem into PCB, naturally both programs run flawlessly under Linux or FreeBSD or probably any other *BSD.I did see Orcad on some version of windows a long time ago, and it was a absolute SLUG!

author: techman-001
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2019, 01:35:18 pm
content: Quote from: NorthGuy on May 06, 2019, 01:15:48 pmCheckout MX Linux , it's now the highest ranked on Distrowatch.com.https://mxlinux.org/Debian Stable based, it's the slickest Linux distro I've seen for ages. I think its heaps better than Mint, which was my previous choice. I installed MX on a Thinkpad X60s and everything is working perfectly from suspend to brightness and audio via keyboard keys.

author: legacy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2019, 01:49:44 pm
content: Quote from: techman-001 on May 06, 2019, 01:10:38 pmThere were more interesting and well done OSes: BeOS? RISCOS? AmigaOS? etcLinux sucks in a lot of points, but hey? It's practically better than anything else.p.s.I thinkthisis very interesting about virtual machines.

author: legacy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2019, 01:53:24 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on May 06, 2019, 01:19:57 pmespecially if the hardware is made on the IBM POWER9 chip

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2019, 02:01:47 pm
content: Tips, if you're going to completely move to Linux from Windows, "AND" you're a Linux noob, just do NOT use the latest leading edge motherboard/chip-set/CPU, as I experienced badly when I applied a brand new Ryzen and it's latest motherboard released few years ago.Using latest "stable" downloaded Fedora at that time, installed it right, no problem so far, and then suddenly it suggested there was a new legit updated system driver for the new CPU & chipsets (forgot what they called it) and "recommended" me to download and apply it asap, then I did as told, reboot, and BOOM ... screen booted with tons of error messages on 1st reboot, lost the front end GUI and left me as linux noob staring blank at the command prompt, no hint nor clue what to do next.Yeah, I could just google at my other working computer/tablet/phone to find it out, but I felt if I just own a single computer, then I'm screwed. Decided to postpone the migration as I didn't have time to tinker just to have a basic/legit/stable Linux OS booted up.Still on Win 7 ...

author: jpb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2019, 02:03:43 pm
content: Interesting thread.I mainly use Linux at work (Centos) and Windows 7 on my home work station but when official support ends I will probably go Linux at home - I want to avoid Windows 10 at all costs. It is not just the data slurping but also the totally inadequate testing by Microsoft. My daughter had Windows 10 professional on her Dell Workstation and a recent Windows 10 update not only wiped the hard drive with the OS on it but also totally wiped a second 2TB data drive! What is really frustrating is that Microsoft is making more money than ever and so is not going to go back to having in-house testing of its products or stop viewing the people that buy its OS as a product rather than customers any time soon.I helped my daughter to switch to Linux Mint.The problem though is the software but I guess a Windows 7 VM that doesn't connect to the internet may be the answer - I'm not sure how my Windows 7 licence will behave in a VM.

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2019, 02:23:53 pm
content: Used Linux since '96 or so, exclusively since '04 or so.Make sure you have good, fast storage. Either SSD, or if spinning disks, RAID0 (striped, no redundancy) for OS. Do regular off-machine backups.Get into the habit of using virtual machines for testing things. You can save the state of a virtual machine, and revert back to that state, if you need to e.g. execute installers or whatnot to get some configuration files out of them. That includes OS updates, as well.Being dependant on software only available on a specific OS is difficult, unless you can run that OS in a virtual machine, possibly dedicated for that software. This includes proprietary Linux software designed to run only on a specific distribution and version. It also helps keep complexity low; reduces the risk of incompatible library version requirements between different software packages. You can keep a clean copy of each VM in cold storage, to ensure you can always work even when stuff breaks.I do a reinstall once a year or two. Not because it is necessary, but because I use the opportunity to reclassify my files, move the cold set to permanent storage, remove (skip) unneeded software, and in general, review my work patterns and adjust my tools to suit me better, and find out what has changed (including running different Linux distros off USB media). Kinda like a spring cleaning plus a visit to your doc.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2019, 02:42:33 pm
content: Despite spending most of my day tethered to Linux machines in AWS, Linux really gets on my wick after a few days on the desktop. Nothing quite works as well as windows 10 scarily enough which once you've beaten it hard stays out of the way and doesn't poke you in the eye that often. When it does it does it in style though.Last time I hit Xubuntu and was greeted with high DPI display problems, power management problems, mouse acceleration problems, tiny little window borders which were unusable with a high DPI display and LTspice decided it wasn't going to work however hard I poked it in the eye. Also, and this applies to MacOS as well, the folder previews in the file manager have way too much whitespace which makes it damn difficult to find an image in a folder of images. Eventually I crawl back, noting that things improved but not enough to stop my blood pressure rising by the end of a week.I'm up for taking a single stabbing in the brain once every 6 months from windows 10 than being cut to death with razors over the space of a couple of weeks with Xubuntu at the moment. Yes I tried CentOS and normal Ubuntu as well. Even more ugh. MacOS comes a close second but they still can't produce a machine that the keyboard works properly on at the moment. Plus it feels a bit wanky now.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2019, 03:29:21 pm
content: Quote from: jpb on May 06, 2019, 02:03:43 pmRead it and you'll see a standard Windows license allows use in a VM.

author: legacy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2019, 03:41:00 pm
content: Quote from: Nominal Animal on May 06, 2019, 02:23:53 pmhave you any experience with FCs and FC-bridges?It's very experimental for me, and it's very expensive (400 euro), but I am really tempted.It was a professional solution used for commercial UNIX (e.g. SGI IRIX) in the 2000s.Unfortunately I have zero experience with them

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2019, 03:43:58 pm
content: Everyone has gone DAS for storage now you can get TiB sized SSDs and PCIe attached enterprise ones. FC is dying apart from for stupidly large arrays and then there’s filesystem layers over that now like GFS.

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2019, 03:44:47 pm
content: I am still using WIN XP PRO SP3 on some of my computers and Linux Mint of others. For me XP was the last reasonably good OS and I stuck with it but it is on the way out and so I am trying to transit to Linux but Linux definitely is a PITA and I am just hoping it will get better because with MS I lost that hope long time ago.Linux Mint definitely has its share of bugs and other problems. I was just discussing Windows' Device Manager which is easy to use and convenient. It tells you your hardware, what resources it uses, etc. You can change drivers, disable devices etc. Linux has nothing like this and you have to dive into cryptic and arcane line commands which is a PITA.I get a feeling Linux is getting less attention from some vendors. For instance, Teamviewer used to work relatively well on Linux but version 14 has totally screwed the pooch and sort of works badly only when it is in the mood and the planets align as needed.Linux is giving me too much trouble to be my only OS.

author: NorthGuy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2019, 03:48:58 pm
content: Quote from: Nominal Animal on May 06, 2019, 02:23:53 pmWindows is very good at caching HDDs in RAM. Most of what I'm doing (such as compilations) repeatedly uses the same files, thus there's practically no difference between "slow" HDD or fast SSD. Doesn't Linux do the same?

author: legacy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2019, 03:52:18 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on May 06, 2019, 03:43:58 pmI am not expert, but it seems that SSD doesn't offer the same IOPs, and from what I observe about kernel_drivers, those drivers made on SAS/SATA seem to suffer a lot of DMA problems, while the FC stuff seems neither simpler nor cheaper, but more reliable and neater.I have zero practical experience, but I am digging into a couple of FC controllers used by SGI. I know the PCI spec was only partially respected, but surprisingly these controllers do work on HPPA without all the problems that I have recently experimented with SATA and SAS controllers made for PeeeeCeeees.Weird World

author: Ampera
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2019, 04:03:19 pm
content: Quote from: techman-001 on May 06, 2019, 01:10:38 pmThat's a neat setup, wish I could understand itI personally use FreeBSD on my server, as I just like the environment better than Linux, how everything is packaged tighter together, and things work in more of a harmony than Linux. The differences aren't dramatic, though.I wish I was around for the world of Unix workstations. Being a PC gamer, I'd have had to keep a PC compatible around still, but my experiences with Linux have brought me great interest into the 80's and 90's world of Unix workstations, and I hope I get to at least try one out one day.As for storage speeds, even though this is anecdotal, I have found Windows (Server 2016, which I used before Linux for my desktop), absolutely DIES on a hard drive, to the point where an SSD is mandatory, otherwise it's impossible to use. Linux, however, has a speed boost between a hard drive and a solid state drive, but it's not as dramatic as Windows, as Linux on a hard drive is still plenty fast today.For distros, if you're going to use something Debian based, then use Debian. If you don't like the old package universe, Ubuntu (of which Ubuntu Server is my preferred pick for its arch-like minimalism) has newer ones. I don't really get these Debian based distros that just use an off the shelf window manager with a skin and call it new and slick.Perhaps one of the most important thing to know about Linux distros is that they are for the most part all the same, and are really defined by what they come with, with the most significant differences being nonstandard kernels, and different package managers. If you like the look of Ubuntu, for example, you can quite easily make Arch Linux, Debian, or even OpenSUSE look the exact same way, and potentially even operate the exact same way if you swap out enough programs.The best thing about Linux for me is simply how many different options there are for X window managers. Using a distro just for its window manager is like deciding to not buy a house because one room is painted a different colour than you'd like.

author: Mick
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 06, 2019, 04:18:49 pm
content: Fusion360:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/fusion-360-under-linux/msg2380008/#msg2380008

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2019, 04:30:11 pm
content: Quote from: legacy on May 06, 2019, 03:52:18 pmhttps://www.hpe.com/uk/en/product-catalog/servers/server-solid-state-drives/pip.hpe-6dot4tb-pcie-x8-lanes-mixed-use-hhhl-3yr-wty-digitally-signed-firmware-card.1010289536.html^^^ we have 8 of these in a SQL server. Goes like the clappers. Much faster than remote 3par.IOPS isn’t a problem really now. Latency is.

author: ElectronicSupersonic
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2019, 04:33:46 pm
content: My first ever PC (interestingly enough) run Linux (Suse) despite using Windows XP at work. I knew very little about computers back then, so using Linux as the fist personal OS was quite a strange/bold choice. A challenge was needed I guess.Looking back, I think it was a very wise choice (albeit very painful at the beginning). Thanks to Linux, I learned a lot about how computers work (or don't work), also it was Linux where I begun to appreciate the power of CLI. Knowledge how to use CLI, helps fixing stuff in both Windows and (even more so) OS X.As the main application I used at the time was AutoCAD and it was occasionally needed to do some CAD at home, some means to run AutoCAD were needed. Wine (at the time) was not able to run any newer versions of the software, so after much struggling to make things work properly, I've installed VMware to run Windows. It worth noting though, that Wine (again, at the time) coun't run properly even some basic applications, hence VM was the only obvious choice.Being curious person (inclined to learn something new) I've decided to try running OS X on the same PC since it was a cutting edge stuff (circa 2006 then Apple had just switched to Intel CPUs; late OS X Tiger era) at the time. It was even more interesting experience. To make things even more fun, I've installed Windows XP 64-bit effectively making it a triple boot system (using GRUB as the main bootloader to bootstrap other bootloaders). Much fun was hadEventually I came to realise that dual/triple booting is a major inconvenience. It's highly impractical in many cases. So back to VM. Now it was Windows XP running inside OS X Snow Leopard installed on to a HP Pavilion notebook. The other PC (desktop) was still a dual boot (Windows 7 and OS X) machine, but for the most part only one OS was used (Windows). I personally tend to like OS X more, but unfortunately still have to use Windows, due to Mac OS version of AutoCAD is still not 100% comparable with Windows version (due to AutoCAD being Windows only for a very long time, it begun to rely heavily on Windows specific features which are hard or impossible to replicate on Mac OS) as it is missing some important functionality. Now days I use Windows as the only daily OS. Mainly because both machines are toast and I'm being hesitant to deal with hackintoshing.That being said, I do use Linux from time to time. To fix stuff, as there things that Linux does best.I don't see myself switching to Linux-only workflow (while Windows 7 is still supported at least) mostly 'cos old habits die hardThe other major factor is that, to this day many Linux distros lack "spit and polish" of a commercial OSs and in some cases even look like home-brew product (lacking consistency and stability). However if I really had to switch to Linux, I most likely could, since most software products I use, have Linux alternatives/close substitutes (say Siemens NX for CAD needs; though one can't directly compare the two, reason being NX is parametric engineering software, AutoCAD being drafting software with some limited 3D modelling, not to mention a HUGE price difference).Talking about software, I tend to like some applications that were conceived as Linux only (mplayer for instance which I use on any OS), since these just work and do what they are supposed to do.

author: guenthert
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2019, 04:50:42 pm
content: Quote from: NorthGuy on May 06, 2019, 03:48:58 pmThat's not my experience, but last I looked at the (then astonishing) difference was with Windows 7.Linux has been caching very aggressively since the beginning more than 25 years ago (much more than other OS and this took a bit of getting used to: e.g., it's best to let the box sit idle for at least half a minute before hitting the reset button ;-)Linus Torvalds coined the mantra 'free RAM is wasted RAM', i.e. almost all memory not used by the kernel itself for various buffers or applications is used as cache. That's makes it also a bit tricky to determine how much memory is actually 'free' at any given time on such a machine. Said that, Linus stated quite a few years ago already, that he refuses to work on a computer not equipped with a SSD (that was before the Intel SSD in his laptop suddenly failed and the upcoming Linux kernel release was delayed by a week ;-}Whether, or rather, how much performance improves by using SSDs, certainly depends on use case. Compiling files (C or C++ at least) of large projects reads a whole lot, but writes comparatively little and non of it synchronously, so a large cache can effectively hide the latency of the underlying storage subsystem. Most DB of any sort will issue synchronous writes (at least to the write-ahead log file), there you can expect to observe good gains using SSDs.I have access to various Linux sporting computers still equipped with spinning rust drives, e.g. a Mac Mini. I saw instructions on-line on how to upgrade the internal drive to a SSD and decided it wasn't worth it ;-} It works actually surprisingly well as general desktop (the version with dual-core CPU and 8GiB RAM), it's a tad slow when updating the system.As for going Linux only: I'm using Linux since '93 and in the mid to late nineties exclusively (at least at home -- there's been a variety of *nix and Windows computers at work). Since then computers are so cheap, I have various ones for various purposes and use cases.I find it concerning though, if people or organizations demand MS office for document exchange. They ought to use standardized document formats (e.g. ODF, PDF, CSV) and let the free market provide software solutions for those. I don't want a secretary or bean counter decide what tool I'm using.

author: legacy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2019, 05:45:22 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on May 06, 2019, 04:30:11 pmWe are playing with an experimental array of RAM-disks (homemade) using them for speeding HDL simulator and FEM stuff; IOPs makes a tiny difference for each interaction but at the end of the day it's an appreciable difference, so we are interested.

author: edy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2019, 06:10:24 pm
content: Quote from: soldar on May 06, 2019, 03:44:47 pmI've had relatively few problems with TeamViewer on Linux but I did decide to bail on them and go to RealVNC as it was much much cheaper, and they have a Linux version available (plus viewers for all the other systems and several phone OS's as well). At one time before I used the newer RealVNC, I had to know my machine IP address to get in and would use TeamViewer simply to login, do a "whatismyip.com" screen grab and then log out and then update my RealVNC connection info. Then TeamViewer started to get nasty with booting people out after 5 minutes and complaining about personal/corporate use issues, so I bit the bullet and found that a yearly license for RealVNC was a fraction of the cost and worked better. The new RealVNC subscription-based version doesn't require you to know your server IP (so it is just like TeamViewer) so if it changes you don't have to worry about not being able to find your machine or using some other method to get it.

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2019, 06:20:17 pm
content: Quote from: legacy on May 06, 2019, 03:41:00 pmNothing up to date. Have used them on servers I've installed and maintained, but that's a decade ago now.Quote from: NorthGuy on May 06, 2019, 03:48:58 pmIf your dataset is completely cached, then storage speed is irrelevant. However, having fast storage for your OS means the initial startup latency is minimized. Things like waking up from hibernation, and so on. You'd be surprised how much such latencies affect your work flow.Quote from: NorthGuy on May 06, 2019, 03:48:58 pmAlways has, even before Windows did.When running microbenchmarks, I often purge the page cache (sudo sh -c 'sync; echo 3 > /proc/sys/vm/drop_caches') to check the initial latencies due to loading (as opposed to having all already cached). It's also useful if you're a bit OCD when switching tasks, as you can ensure your new working set gets fully cached when switching tasks. You know what I mean, if you are as sensitive to "unexpected" slowdown of your machine as I am.Quote from: bd139 on May 06, 2019, 04:30:11 pm+1. Latency seems to be one of those things whose effect you see only when measuring real-world performance, and then it usually surprises everyone how big a difference it makes.Quote from: legacy on May 06, 2019, 05:45:22 pmDalton, a quantum chemistry simulator program (at least as of 2010 or so), tends to be I/O bound also; it reads and writes its dataset to storage during each iteration step. To give it a good speedup, you simply have to have the dataset on tmpfs ("ramdisk"), as any non-RAM-based storage is simply a horribly bottleneck. While having a terabyte of RAM is horribly overkill in most cases, for quantum chemists using Dalton it makes a huge difference. (I'm sure you can imagine the IT dept. reactions to such machine requests, though.)As I've mentioned elsewhere, non-quantum molecular dynamic simulators, like gromacs, suffer from a similar problem when distributed: they do not interleave computation and communication, which means that network (communication network, usually InfiniBand, between computation nodes) latencies directly delay the real-world progress of the simulation. I consider the approach -- not interleaving computation and I/O sufficiently -- a serious, but extremely common design error.

author: jmelson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2019, 07:01:29 pm
content: Quote from: ataradov on May 06, 2019, 01:49:40 amOK, yes. I use Libre Office to READ MS documents, and just send out PDFs to anybody that needs something in a typeset form.That has worked fine for a long time. If a document needs to be edited on a MS system and exchanged back and forth, then that is an issue, and Libre Office might be the solution. But, I just find setting up margins and pagination a real pain in Libre Office. Obviously, I'm not an expert at using it.Jon

author: jmelson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2019, 07:04:33 pm
content: Quote from: legacy on May 06, 2019, 11:38:24 amYES YES YES!Jon

author: legacy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2019, 07:16:46 pm
content: Quote from: Nominal Animal on May 06, 2019, 06:20:17 pm(Apple PowerMac G4, MDD)This machine only allows 2Gbyte of ram and it's the best we can find about PowerPC 74xx, so this was the first initial reason why we moved to the RAM-disk-tower project, which allows up to 64Gbyte of ram with an incredible high IOPs and up to 300Mbyte/sec read/write.Frankly I do not like any G5 machines (especially PowerMac-G5), even if the top line allows up to 8Gbyte of ram.Sooner or later we will the FC-stuff.

author: legacy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2019, 07:19:59 pm
content: Quote from: Nominal Animal on May 06, 2019, 06:20:17 pmthat's the next step for us

author: malagas_on_fire
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2019, 07:21:16 pm
content: It is Linux OS for most time but also use windows 8.1 and 10. If LibreOffice is not enough there is the wps office for linux if you are having some incompatibilities with docx.

author: NorthGuy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2019, 07:27:28 pm
content: Quote from: Nominal Animal on May 06, 2019, 06:20:17 pmFast starts are hardly a justification for SSD. I have several Linuxes on older PCs with slow IDE HDDs and they all are reasonably fast to start despite the old hardware.I try not to use lots of overbloated software. so everything works quite fast with SATA3 HDD.Of course, Vivado is very slow to srart (and doing everything else), but if you must you must. I don't think SSD would make Vivado fly.

author: Howardlong
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2019, 07:35:58 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on May 06, 2019, 04:30:11 pmBlimey, I was pushing for specialised SSD DAS well over a decade ago for SQL Server, but at the same time everyone had already drunk too much SAN kool aid, and with cloud now being similarly embedded, I gave up even trying to push for DAS a long time ago. It was a battle I accepted was lost. Crazy thing is, many of the supposed benefits of SAN are lost on certain SQL Server high availability solutions.What are your high availability solutions with these? Assuming you have a zero RPO, how does that affect latency?

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2019, 07:38:33 pm
content: SSD made such a huge difference to me that I could never want to go back. Quite a few of the programs I use take 5-20 seconds to load and that adds up to a lot over time.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2019, 08:28:43 pm
content: Quote from: NorthGuy on May 06, 2019, 03:48:58 pmLinux does that even better and faster because Linux can use all the available memory for disk caching but doesn't push stuff into swap (unlike Windows). For large compilation jobs an SSD makes absolutely zero difference compared to a slow hard drive (much to my surprise because I tested that myself).

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2019, 08:36:59 pm
content: It depends on how much RAM you have too. I have Linux machines with spinning drives and others with SSDs and the SSD machines are much more snappy overall. Not sure about compiling specifically but an SSD on my (Win7) laptop certainly sped up Quartus.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2019, 09:51:28 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on May 06, 2019, 08:28:43 pmIt makes a whopping great big difference on windows. NTFS has a stupid scheme where small files are stored in the MFT, a problem dating back from the dark ages of NT 3.51 so it causes write contention kicking out object files. This is one reason WSL on windows is so fucking slow and it's quicker to run stuff in a VM.I rather prefer to compile on Linux though. As you say it's fast whatever is behind it.

author: Red Squirrel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2019, 11:30:48 pm
content: I use Linux as my daily but I do admit, sometimes I am kind of frustrated as everything feels like a work around or a compromise. If I buy hardware I need to consider whether or not it will work in Linux, if I want to say, learn a new microcontroller platform,I need to consider whether or not I can easily do it under Linux, etc...Also Linux lacks a lot when it comes to intuitivity in GUIs, it seems most Linux devs suck at GUIs and stuff is often unintuitive compared to Windows versions.For example, CAD (not electronics but like standard CAD like building etc) programs. All the Linux ones have horrible workflow. You need to make so many clicks just to do simple things that are done faster in AutoCAD. For example in all the Linux CAD programs I've tried, you cannot type dimensions on the fly. You have to manually drag the line until you are dead on. That is a crappy way of trying to do CAD and this alone disqualifies all those programs as being viable.On the other hand some aspects of Linux are way better than Windows. I find Linux less annoying, Windows is always trying to annoy you with stupid crap. Whether it's things like forced updates, or trying to be user friendly but actually making things harder in the process etc. It's GUI also sucks now days, I can't stand windows 8 and 10 GUI. It's too "blocky" and everything is too big and too white. This whole trend of gray text on white is horrible too. I see lot of websites doing that crap as well. It's very hard on the eyes, don't know why it's catching on.

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 07, 2019, 12:27:18 am
content: Quote from: Red Squirrel on May 06, 2019, 11:30:48 pmhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flat_design

author: rx8pilot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 07, 2019, 04:00:54 am
content: Quote from: jmelson on May 06, 2019, 07:04:33 pmPDF is fine for static docs. Not so great for dynamic spreadsheets. Not familiar with Latex, but I suspect that my corporate customers would not appreciate anything short of genuine Excel for the typical fancy stuff. Curious if any of the Linux based compatibles can read/calc the Texas Instruments calculation tools.http://www.ti.com/product/TPS25942A/toolssoftware?keyMatch=tps25942&tisearch=Search-EN-ProductsCode:esign kits & evaluation modules (1)NamePart#TypeTPS25942EVM-635 Evaluation Module for TPS25942xTPS25942EVM-635Evaluation Modules & BoardsThis thread has seen some excellent insight - I had no idea how many people have effectively gone full Linux. My new hardware arrives tomorrow and I think I have decided what I will do.The new PC will get Win10 PRO to ensure I have a fast machine that can run all Windows apps natively to avoid the inevitable compromises with Wine and VM's in Linux. Easy and safe. My experiments running Windows in a VM did not go well - I need 3-4 high-res displays to stay comfortable working. Obviously, that would be a problem in a VM.My old hardware is a 10-year-old i7 12 core with 24GB RAM and an 8GB ATI FirePro 8800 6G SATA SSD's - even with its age, it rips with Linux Mint running various media applications like Kdenlive. I can hardly believe how fast it is with all of its gray hair. That machine will be a permanent Linux machine dedicated to media use as well as VM's that I can experiment with Linux distros. It will likely be a good option for coding as well. This should allow me to stay in touch with the latest developments in Linux.So, yes two separate systems for two separate applications. I just cannot see anything other than a split effort at the moment. Microsoft still has the upper hand. :-(

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 07, 2019, 04:14:02 am
content: Quote from: rx8pilot on May 07, 2019, 04:00:54 amAs an entrepreneur my self, no doubt, Microsoft still rule.Spreadsheets exchange for revisions, sales quotations revisionsand worst, legal contract document in never ending revisions back and forth mode... you just can not afford by arrogantly "dictate" your customer to move to Latex.Olde wisdom still applicable ... "Customer is King" ...As my previous post on my bad experience ->Post #26, as you're going to use new mobo/chipsets/cpu, make sure you've read if any culprits hiding, the devil is in the details. Good luck on your quest.

author: techman-001
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 07, 2019, 04:23:42 am
content: Quote from: BravoV on May 07, 2019, 04:14:02 amThere was a time when Microsoft WORD was illegal to use in corporate legal offices, has this changed ?Whats wrong with asking for a real standard, such as a PDF ?

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 07, 2019, 04:32:47 am
content: Quote from: techman-001 on May 07, 2019, 04:23:42 amNothing wrong, to be honest, I have OCD too, everything should be nice in an idealistic world, but when it comes to real world and real business world, you can't win at every battle.Imagine you have a really lucrative business deal, probably deal of the year, but the customer's top executive is an old fart that is still love using proprietary document formats, and that person is the one who make the call on this deal, and worst what really annoying is, that he/she loves to send back and forth revisions on your contract/proposal/technical spec documents and etc.What would you do ? Call it a day and reject that deal ?

author: techman-001
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 07, 2019, 04:40:45 am
content: Quote from: BravoV on May 07, 2019, 04:32:47 amA old fart in a legal office probably uses Word Perfect under DOS (the favorite in legal offices as I understand it) and would prefer RTF but he thinks you love to use MS Word so he gets it especially converted for you.I can't really argue with you tho, you're far too logical and reasonable

author: BradC
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 07, 2019, 05:29:50 am
content: Quote from: rx8pilot on May 07, 2019, 04:00:54 amI can't see why. I use multi head all the time. QEMU/KVM with the SPICE protocol supports multi head natively. I use 2 as a baseline and add a third not-infrequently. That way I can run AutoCAD on 2 screens and use Revit on the third. When I only need 2 heads for Windows I disable the third head and it becomes a normal Linux workspace.

author: apis
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 07, 2019, 05:32:25 am
content: When sending documents to others I almost always use PDF format, unless the recipient need to be able to edit it. In the past I have made a LibreOffice document and saved it in MS office format, haven't had any issues so far.The only way to make more companies support Linux is by having more people using it and asking for support.In practice MS still have a monopoly on the desktop (or oligopoly I suppose, if you also count MacOS). Windos has an 88% market share, MacOS 10% and Linux 2%. There are too few Linux users for many companies to think it's worth their time.

author: jklasdf
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 07, 2019, 06:04:09 am
content: I've used Linux full-time for the past 15 years or so, both at work and at home. At work I still have a Windows VM for working with Outlook calendars and working on PowerPoint presentations (which I hate doing...both presentations in general and PowerPoint itself. I've tried using latex/beamer for some presentations, but it's a no go if other people need to work on it). Switching completely is kind of difficult if there's specific applications you depend on unfortunately.Regarding the printer drivers, if you did use Linux full time, it'd be a no-brainer to get one that supported Linux when you purchase a printer or other hardware....at least for future purchases. I have found hardware that only has Windows drivers to usually work pretty well when run in a VM with USB passthrough mode. It's a lot rarer nowadays (now that apple products also use CUPS for printing) to find printers that don't support Linux (I also only user laser printers now, which tend to have better Unix support). Some specialty printers like label printers might be an exception though. I will say at least for printers with a Linux driver, setup is usually much easier, and doesn't involve installing 500MB of "drivers" and other software just to print.In general, besides things in your workflow which just doesn't run on Linux period, I think things are pretty comparable...better in some ways and worse in others (probably "worse" in a lot of ways at first if there are certain Windows things you're used to/take for granted), but usually much more customizable. KDE as the desktop environment is a lot more similar to classic Windows on the GUI side of things.

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 07, 2019, 08:31:48 am
content: Quote from: techman-001 on May 07, 2019, 04:40:45 amReason I posted that kind of argument is, I guess I sort of understand the circumstances that Carlos A.(rx8pilot) is facing, as almost forum's regulars know him for his journey and his Factory400, as he does all technical works, and I guess also doing or at least involves in the marketing and/or sales work himself too, especially on technicality aspect in sales/marketing, not an easy job.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 07, 2019, 08:38:30 am
content: On legal offices, they all use word here. On sharepoint... there's a new MS Office variant being released shortly that is actually platform portable and based on Electron instead of win32 so some interesting times ahead.Honestly I use word for most of my technical documentation. It's faster, less clunky than LibreOffice and you can google your way out of a hole faster than any other product. I can use TeX (I have written thousands of pages with MacTeX) but I just can't be fucked with it today. I prefer cut/paste images like the lazy bastard I am.

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 07, 2019, 08:40:36 am
content: A finished document should not be sent to someone outside the organization in a proprietary format like MS Word, Excel, etc. It should be sent using PDF. Use the other formats only with people who are actively working on the document and need to make changes.I have had a ton of problems with people sending me documents, especially quotes, in formats that my computer interpreted differently even though maybe it shouldn't. Some were totally garbled. Use PDF!

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 07, 2019, 08:41:15 am
content: Yes I send all outbound as PDF as well. That eliminates pretty much every dependency on the actual thing that you wrote the document in.Occasionally someone sends me a flipping MacOS Pages document. I don't actually have anything that will read it so I have a cut and paste ready to send back with instructions on how to send me a pdf.Edit: mostly I try and discourage people communicating via documents and emails where possible. It's better now to use something like Slack and some proper software for handling requirements / storyboards / work. Invoices are about all I send out now in PDF. Documentation is usually delivered in markdown inside a git repo or HTML export for anything I do.

author: apis
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 07, 2019, 09:16:09 am
content: Quote from: soldar on May 07, 2019, 08:40:36 amCompletely agree. With a PDF you can be fairly confident the receiver sees the document the way you intended. Even if both use the same program, e.g. MS office, if it's not also the same version there can still be differences how the document is displayed. It's also a bit rude to assume the receiver will have access to the same program you used to create the file, especially if it's an expensive proprietary program.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 07, 2019, 10:43:59 am
content: Quote from: rx8pilot on May 07, 2019, 04:00:54 amI have ran a similar setup until a few years ago. If you install an Xserver (yes, the client runs the server in the world of Xwindows) on Windows then you can run the Linux programs on your Windows desktop. After that I gradually moved to Linux more & more.

author: legacy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 07, 2019, 11:19:58 am
content: Quote from: rx8pilot on May 07, 2019, 04:00:54 amyes, I was not considering Spreadsheets, just documentation.Latex cannot be useful for any Excel task.I mean, you can create and edit stuff in XML(1), and then ask Latex to "build" a pdf, but this is the best you can do and "the interactivity on the screen" is ... not good.(1) with what? that's the questionI usually edit XML with a simple text editor, and it's not what the most of people are willing to do

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 07, 2019, 11:32:00 am
content: You should forget about using Latex or XML in any kind of professional environment. At some point you want to hand-off editing to other people and they will only know MSOffice.

author: apis
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 07, 2019, 12:12:17 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on May 07, 2019, 11:32:00 amThere are \(\LaTeX\) WYSIWYG editors these days, so anyone can do it.

author: legacy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 07, 2019, 12:17:59 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on May 07, 2019, 11:32:00 amyup, that's another point: the Latex approach usually doesn't work in a team if you consider a large team working that includes secretaries in a company. In my case, what really works it works because my squad has a common skill since we are all developers in the same areas (HDL, C, assembly .. with a few little competences even with web-stuff).Talking about the staff behind DTB, the website is for the hobby, but the squad is mostly composed of working friends in the same area of business. Except for our friend TheHook, who is mainly a seller, so he usually complains we don't use Excel and Office Apps for the inventory and the money flow analysis about the things we sell on eBay and bazaars. Lord Crimson is a lawyer, but he has some competence at programming, so .. there is a bridge between us, but our "secretary" has a different mindset since what she does on a computer must be of the kind of user that is only willing to have the easiest experience possible with a computer. So she writes letters on a Mac, using Office, and if we talk about Latex to her, her face looks like this:So, moral of the story: we still have a serious problem with the office stuff

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 07, 2019, 12:19:58 pm
content: We do indeed.There are people (or are they just automatons) who shit the bed and can't do their job if a button moves 2 pixels unless they are trained to do it. You can't hire anyone better to do the job because anyone with an ounce of initiative is scooped away instantly.Edit: forgot to mention this. Last year I dealt with a SaaS provider who had a client phone up and accuse them of meddling with their PC because they themselves updated to windows 10 1809. This is what we're talking here. Literal morons.

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 07, 2019, 12:20:41 pm
content: Quote from: apis on May 07, 2019, 12:12:17 pmI believe you're aware the different between "CAN" vs "WILLINGLY" right ?Especially that person is not our self, and also he/she probably has something more important to do rather than using (not learning) the TeX.Never in technicality, infact the real problem lies in ... human, or specifically .. human relation.

author: apis
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 07, 2019, 12:30:15 pm
content: Maybe I have just been lucky when it comes to coworkers. They usually make people use TeX at (technical) universities here so a lot of people can handle it. But with the WYSIWYG editors it's not really different from any other word processor unless they want to do something advanced (which in my experience they don't unless they are technically minded to begin with).But for the most part I don't use TeX, it's only if something needs to be "publishing quality".

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 07, 2019, 12:42:09 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on May 07, 2019, 12:19:58 pmOne day I walked from the street into the office and my boss started ranting that his computer had got a virus from my computer located in a different room. He was furious and went on and on and was even more furious when I tried to interrupt. When he was done I told him my computer was not on and had not been on for several days I had been away. Could he explain how it could have transmitted a virus to his machine while it was turned off? He couldn't but somehow someone else must be at fault.

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 07, 2019, 03:05:35 pm
content: No matter what the tools, things ultimately depend on how inept your clients or cow-orkers are.

author: rx8pilot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 07, 2019, 03:21:32 pm
content: Quote from: soldar on May 07, 2019, 08:40:36 amFinished documents are easy - PDF. No problem.My office docs workflow is generally sending work-in-progress and/or dynamic spreadsheets where the user needs to manipulate the data, calculations, relationships, etc, etc. In that case, MS Office native files are the only practical option. This is not stodgy and ancient law firm, but high-tech product design in larger companies that make high-value commercial products and aerospace systems. They all prefer or demand Excel, Word, etc for docs that will need changes. That is my most rigid limitation. Say I have built a spreadsheet with some preliminary test data with some sort of analysis. Someone outside my world needs to do some additional analysis, add 'what-if' data or whatever else. I also have to do PPT presentations that are ultimately handled by some AV person on a machine that I do not control. They use Power Point and I do not get to make changes. All I can do is give them a thumb drive and they give me a wireless controller.Using MS Office products is simply easier in all respects.Quote from: BravoV on May 07, 2019, 04:14:02 amTrue - I am not making the norms but I have to go with them if I expect to survive and succeed.Quote from: BradC on May 07, 2019, 05:29:50 amI don't understand....you are doing triple display full screen with a VM or a KVM?I did take a brief look at KVMs that can handle three high-res displays and it looked expensive and cumbersome.Quote from: Nominal Animal on May 07, 2019, 03:05:35 pmResistant to change and operationally conservative, lol

author: NorthGuy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 07, 2019, 03:38:50 pm
content: Quote from: rx8pilot on May 07, 2019, 04:00:54 amEvery modern video controller can do 2 displays, most can do 3, high end ones should be able to do more. There shouldn't be a problem to give a VM its own display and you can run many VMs at a time.

author: edy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 07, 2019, 04:58:05 pm
content: I'd be curious to know what the consumer public average "Joe" buys as far as computers and what they do with it. I'm willing to bet these days that the vast majority of users, especially students and your typical light-computing home needs are going to be:1. surfing the general web, doing online banking2. watching videos, YouTube, NetFlix3. storing your photos/videos from your phone, sorting/editing4. light office use, Word/Excel/Powerpoint5. printing/scanning stuff (archiving)6. ability to play music, maybe video-chat?Have I missed anything? I bet you most people would be completely fine using some Linux variant to do 100% of their needs. However, there are some major obstacles that will preclude your average person from using it. These include:1. needing to install Linux- with Windows pre-installed on practically 100% of consumer gear, that will be difficult- they need to know how to download and burn an ISO on a USB stick- they need to know how to over-ride BIOS settings to allow booting from USB (and some manufacturers are making it damn hard to stop Windows from loading and let you boot another system)2. non-familiarity/learning curve with the system- sure they both have menus and windows, and use a mouse, but it is still a learning curve- understanding how to update, install and remove software, and drivers for various gear- knowing the names of and obtaining apps with different names (LibreOffice, GIMP, etc).- learning curve of learning the different app equivalents on Linux vs. counter-parts on Windows3. printer/scanner drivers- this continues to be a source of frustration, and may require some technical experience4. knowing where to look for solutions when something is not working- any Linux user will know how important it is to be able to search online- changing certain settings files, parameters, text strings, being able to work in the CLISo as you can see there are a number of show-stoppers right there which the average person will decide NOT to warrant the move from Windows, even though Windows has it's share of frustrations... People will rather endure through Windows than take a giant leap of frustration and heaps of learning to get to using Linux 100%. At least the average home user... which sadly would be the best candidate to take advantage of Linux as it can pretty much do anything a home user needs on older hardware.The only reason my entire family is on Linux is because I'm their IT department. I update their machines, install software, fix things when they don't work, etc. For example, my daughter had trouble connecting to her school WiFi the other day, after I installed the latest Lubuntu. Turns out I didn't give her account permissions to connect to WiFi. I didn't realize because at home I just typed in my admin pwd when asked and forgot about it. Turns out for every new WiFi connection is asks for admin pwd on first login, then it remembers and connects without need for admin pwd again. Since I didn't want to give my daughter my admin pwd, and I wasn't going to her school to type it in, we needed a way to change the permissions in her account to allow her free access to connect to WiFi without any request for admin. After searching frantically on numerous forums and trying various options (like "users-admin", Users and Groups, adding policykit rules for wifi users, etc).... After some deep digging I found I had to change something in "/usr/share/polkit-1/actions/org.freedesktop.NetworkManager.policy" under section "org.freedesktop.NetworkManager.settings.modify.system" from "auth_admin" and "auth_admin_keep" to "yes" so it doesn't keep asking for administrator password.Stuff like that is going to keep the Linux base small. As much as I hate to admit it... but I still love Linux and glad to have a free alternative available.[EDIT: Wanted to add my other little story below...]...And then there is the time I upgraded Ubuntu and ended up screwing up my desktop completely. As the description to my video says: "Having just upgraded form Xenial Xerus (16.04) to Artful Aardvark (17.10) my Ubuntu Studio machine lost the ability to type on the login screen, then I had issues with XFCE! Finally after some frustration I was able to fix these issues and ended up in Gnome Desktop and found it quite nice! In this video I show how I configured some Gnome Extensions using the Tweaks tool and also added some Conky Widgets and the Conky Manager. Just google and find lots of info on how to install and configure and links to the theme packs! Enjoy!"Shortly after that video, my entire distro had another meltdown and I couldn't log in, or had other major screen desktop and login issues. I finally ended up completely uninstalling Gnome and I believe I may have done a complete dist-upgrade and went back to XFCE. It was nice while it lasted but any normal user would have never tolerated that abuse.

author: rx8pilot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 07, 2019, 05:52:00 pm
content: Quote from: NorthGuy on May 07, 2019, 03:38:50 pmSure, I have a video card that supports 4 displays, just not sure how to span a single VM across all of them as if the system was running whatever OS the VM is running.Quote from: edy on May 07, 2019, 04:58:05 pmOutside of my professional work - I would not use Windows or Mac. Linux covers the basics quite well.The downside of Linux is that it is a massive Ocean of distros and variations. Average Joe user probably does not want to mess with all that.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 07, 2019, 05:54:51 pm
content: Quote from: rx8pilot on May 07, 2019, 05:52:00 pmJust make the window larger. VMs typically can run in several modes: fullscreen, windowed or seamless. In Windowed mode you can make the VM screen any size (spanning across multiple monitors if you want). In seamless mode the applications running in the VM blend into you existing desktop so there is no specific VM display to begin with.

author: jmelson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 07, 2019, 07:03:59 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on May 07, 2019, 11:32:00 amWell, if you are working with scientific publications, LaTeX may be REQUIRED.Jon

author: jmelson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 07, 2019, 07:07:52 pm
content: Quote from: edy on May 07, 2019, 04:58:05 pmWorks for me and most of my family. There are two MacBooks, but that is actually pretty close to Linux, anyway.Nobody is using Windows, for several reasons. And, they are fine with it.Jon

author: BradC
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 08, 2019, 12:27:12 am
content: Quote from: BradC on May 07, 2019, 05:29:50 amQuote from: rx8pilot on May 07, 2019, 04:00:54 amhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kernel-based_Virtual_MachineThe VM has several "virtual graphics cards" installed and I allocate one of those to each head on my 3 head desktop. So normally when using windows I have 2 heads for windows and 1 for Linux. When needs must I allocate all 3 heads for windows, so for all intents and purposes it looks like I'm sitting at a 3 head Windows machine.I spent a while playing with horrible hacks like stretching the VM display across 2 physical heads, but it's ugly and windows doesn't do stuff like that well, so I moved to the SPICE display protocol where each windows head becomes a separate X window, and I just allocate one of those windows full-screen to each physical display.I boot windows with one head. I right click on the desktop and go into display properties. I enable the next "monitor" and the SPICE client pops open another X window and I put it where I want it.Actually, now days I have windows set to boot in dual head and I enable the 3rd where required. I have XMonad set up to allocate windows heads 1 & 2 to workspaces 8 & 9 automatically and I just sent them to the physical monitors I want them on. Once the automation was in place for the window manager it all happens automatically. I pop open the SPICE client and I'm in dual-head Windows.I have 2 27" 2560x1440 displays and a 24" 1920x1200 display on the machine, so being able to run native resolution on those gives me a bit of screen realestate to play with. Being able to run Windows full-screen at native res is nice.The only thing it doesn't do is accelerated 3D passthrough, but while that would be useful for Revit, it doesn't stop me doing what I need to do.

author: techman-001
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 08, 2019, 12:45:41 am
content: Quote from: jmelson on May 07, 2019, 07:03:59 pmPlus, if you're thinking about creating a 500+ page Thesis at university you'd be insane to use Microsoft Word instead of LaTeX. I remember the Ms Word users coming back from the university printer and the looks of horror and devastation on their faces when they opened their publications.It was a sickening sight.Those who had submitted a ps file (produced by LaTeX) opened their publications and ... ho hum ... they were *exactly* as designed.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 08, 2019, 04:10:11 am
content: MS Office actually occupies a space much like the QWERTY keyboard. It is workable, but far from optimum. But will probably never be replaced by better alternatives because of the huge number of people trained in its quirks that would require significant retraining to use something that is better, but not better enough to be worth the investment in retraining.No amount of testimonials from users of chording keyboards or Dvorak keyboards will kill QWERTY. Same is probably true for MS Office.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 08, 2019, 05:20:34 am
content: I really have very few complaints about MS Office 2003, that was the last one with a proper UI before they changed to that ribbon nonsense that I had to use at work for years and never got used to. The last time I wiped my laptop when I replaced the hard drive I installed Libre Office simply because I couldn't be bothered to go dig out my MS Office CD, so far so good, I haven't had any issues with it.

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 08, 2019, 09:41:54 am
content: Quote from: james_s on May 08, 2019, 05:20:34 amI am not interested in ribbons, bells or whistles so I am still using MS Office 2003 in my Win XP computers and LibreOffice in my Linux Mint machines.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 08, 2019, 09:52:26 am
content: Quote from: soldar on May 08, 2019, 09:41:54 amI wish I could do that but unfortunately Office 2003 isn't very compatible with the docx format (even with the translator). Documents are likely to get screwed up.

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 08, 2019, 11:58:24 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on May 08, 2019, 09:52:26 amYes, if you need to be compatible with other people then you just need to use whatever they are using. In my case I work on my documents and then convert to PDF before sending.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 08, 2019, 12:05:40 pm
content: Quote from: CatalinaWOW on May 08, 2019, 04:10:11 amIt's also important to remember the vast majority of users aren't competent at typing on a QWERTY keyboard and will never bother to be.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 08, 2019, 12:26:40 pm
content: I know someone who used a DVORAK keyboard. Outside of his own controlled space, he basically had a disability.Same goes for MS office unfortunately.I don't get all the bitching about the ribbon though. It's discoverable, far less keystrokes to use than the old menus, comprehensive and folds away out of view when you dont need it.Buy a copy of this if you have trouble with the ribbon:https://www.amazon.com/dp/0091816971/

author: olkipukki
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 08, 2019, 12:59:56 pm
content: Quote from: rx8pilot on May 07, 2019, 03:21:32 pmYou can install PROXMOX on the top of that - Windows/Linux(/MacOS if you wish) VMs with GPU passthrough and attached monitors (yes, separate video card for each VM). If you prefer to use same keyboard and mouse directly across these running VMs, you will need KVM switch for these, but not for monitors. Basically, all-in-one solution with dedicated video card for each VM. Also, easy to manage VMs (clones, backups etc)...

author: apis
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 08, 2019, 01:15:01 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on May 08, 2019, 12:26:40 pmThe DVORAK guy I assume had trouble using QWERTY keyboards?I don't see how not using MS Office is much of a problem, as long as you can open the MS files and get the information you need out of them (which you can for the most part). I haven't really noticed much of an issue, certainly no problems to rely on only LibreOffice or \(\LaTeX\) for private use.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 08, 2019, 01:23:27 pm
content: That is correct.The main thing with office is that a lot of business workflows are based around emailing documents around or the collaboration and locking features of word. Word has some nice things hiding in it that no one seems to know about as well like review, signing and 3-way merges for example as well. It's much like an oscilloscope which is a jack of all trades but master of none. Sometimes it's best not to go against the flow, especially if you're being paid to do something quickly and efficiently and meet in the middle.Personal use, meh. Doesn't matter. Use what you want. I still hand write stuff occasionally if it means I don't have to fight my printer which is an utter c**t.

author: rx8pilot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 08, 2019, 01:56:58 pm
content: Quote from: apis on May 08, 2019, 01:15:01 pmA number of years ago, I hired a load of new people that all needed computers. I was nervous about short term cash flow so I moved to OpenOffice to avoid the cost of the Microsoft suite. Internally, it worked great. No complaints and we were doing reasonably sophisticated spreadsheets. Then comes 2-3 critical customers that we were dealing with on collaboration projects. Our Open Office spreadsheets were not working for them and Excel was not working for us. There were little syntax differences, and newer functions were simply absent.We were the small kids in the group and were not given the option. Excel was the only acceptable option to continue with these customers. Then, we had to deal with learning the sometimes subtle differences between the two and migrate all of our existing work. That turned out to be a VERY expensive way to save money.

author: apis
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 08, 2019, 03:35:41 pm
content: That sucks. I suppose there isn't much you can do if an important client forces you to use it.

author: techman-001
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 08, 2019, 03:57:17 pm
content: Quote from: rx8pilot on May 08, 2019, 01:56:58 pmI guess the rule is if you have to inter-work with any Microsoft product then you're probably going to be locked in to Microsoft forever. Naturally this lock-in doesn't occur by accident of course, it's Microsofts way of chaining its customers to its products.On the other hand our state owned vehicle registry converted to Linux and Openoffice about a decade ago for cost savings and reliability. I asked their IT guy how the change over went and he replied, "most of our thousands of staff didn't even notice". Those Microsoft licenses really add up to some serious cash across thousands of users.

author: rx8pilot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 08, 2019, 04:04:17 pm
content: Quote from: techman-001 on May 08, 2019, 03:57:17 pmIf there was something that compelled the companies I am surrounded by to switch [perhaps learning how much they are spending] - they might switch and all would be happy. Microsoft has successfully spun a web that is hard for end users to escape. Very clever.

author: golden_labels
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 08, 2019, 05:22:47 pm
content: I fully moved to Linux-based OS in 2010, because my work environment on Windows XP was more and more consisting of software designed for POSIX systems. I was simply limited by not being able to use various things, because Window would not support them. I was also administrating a few servers, so incompatibilities were a bit of PITA too. I never thought about moving back. No more routine system reinstalls, no more garbage accumulation, unparalleled clear view of what’s going on in the system, much less poor advise from ignorant people who always feel compelled to post comments and mislead help seekers, less scam/spam websites (that changes slowly in recent years).I went fully open source in 2014, but IIRC the only non-free component I had since 2012 was nVidia’s blob. That coincided with and solidified the shift in how I see my relationship with computers. The Windows environment is now simply incompatible with my brain. I doubt I could easily return to it.But going Linux for expected financial gains alone is not a good idea. Expect it to cost you more in time and lost opportunities, unless you are already running a company with a decent IT department (business use), you are a seasoned administrator and coder (personal use) or use it in an environment typically based on Linux (e.g. servers). There is a reason why it is so often stressed, that free software is free as in freedom, not as in free beer (but see this).

author: ElectronicSupersonic
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 08, 2019, 07:53:19 pm
content: Quote from: rx8pilot on May 08, 2019, 04:04:17 pm"Chicken or the egg" problem I guess. People are hesitant to switch 'cos it's not widely used, it is not widely used 'cos people are hesitant to use it.

author: malagas_on_fire
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 08, 2019, 09:12:15 pm
content: Quote from: golden_labels on May 08, 2019, 05:22:47 pmI start fully switching when windows vista was anounced :S but never under-estimate MS workaround further ( Windows 7). Nowadays it seems to be more easy to do the migration if you use same programs on all platforms eg open sourced . Has i mentioned before they made Windows phone 8.1 which would run smoothly on a nokia lumia 630 , windows 7 is good enough , quite like the 8.1 tiles style, windows 10?a lot of updates... damn why not release windows 10 second edition. For embedded linux development using currently linux was the choice, although you can have a remote linux PC for compilation and a Chromebook, Mac, Windows, Android OS for SSH access. I don't jave opinion on MacOs or Chromium since i've never tried a lot.Choose the OS that fits you're needs, a second partition for tryout ...PS.: I miss the old Windows 98 SE

author: BradC
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2019, 01:54:34 am
content: Quote from: BradC on May 07, 2019, 05:29:50 amI've got stuff to do on Windows this morning so I thought I'd do a screenshot of my desktop right now with the 3rd Windows head enabled. The third head isn't maximised so you can see the underlying Linux desktop.

author: rx8pilot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 19, 2019, 10:39:27 pm
content: The family Linux challenge has begun.....I had to replace my primary workstation and I re-purposed the old hardware for a dedicated Linux system that will be used for video and image editing as well as audio recording for voice-overs. My daughter will use it for homework, web browsing, etc.Mint 19 was chosen for ease of use and broad support. Kdenlive for video, GIMP for images, and Audacity for audio.10-year-old hardware is working like a champ - i7 Extreme 12 core, 24GB RAM, 500GB SSD on SATA-6G, ATI FirePro 8800 with dual monitors. It is rather quick for ancient hardware. Zero driver challenges so far, even with the audio interface M-Audio Fast Track PRO before AVID purchased them.My biggest challenge so far is the administrative tasks of drive/folder/file permissions and sharing with Windows. I was hoping to find some GUI tools to help me get it all sorted, but alas I end up in the terminal slaying the problem on the command line. I have no problem with the command line for everyday stuff, but generally, prefer a GUI for tasks that I don't deal with enough to memorize the command line. Setting up systems from scratch and getting them all configured for sharing, users, security, is a very occasional tasks. Mint has quite a bit of GUI tools built-in, but configuring SAMBA is apparently a CLI thing.Anyway....this is my first attempt to have a general purpose, everyday-use, Linux system. It will force me to develop my understanding and skills in Linux and perhaps escape Windows someday soon.

author: techman-001
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 20, 2019, 12:22:07 am
content: Quote from: rx8pilot on May 19, 2019, 10:39:27 pmI run FreeBSD on similar machines, I have two I7's one is a 6core/6threads core 'sandy bridge' with 64GB ram (which has a faulty USB subsystem now dammit!) and one is a I7 4core/4threads that I'm writing this on. Both machines are pretty old now but still as fast as I'll ever need for CAD and video work etc so I doubt you'll have any problems there. These machines worked perfectly with Linux for the first five years of their lives.Inter-working with Windows ... now I cringe, even if many Windows-only-shops have a Linux Samba server instead of a Windows server, even if the boss doesn't know it. I've never had to configure Samba because I haven't used Windows since 1997 but many friends have and after a couple of weeks of bitching about all the config they seemed to settle down with it ok.I've started using Krita for image processing as I have trouble using the latest Gimp, I just can't adapt to the new UI after 20 years of occasional Gimp use ... why oh why must they change things! Kdenlive and Audacity are great, no worries there using them for making Youtube videos like the one below. Any poor audio etc isn't the fault of FreeBSD, I'm using a cheap mobile phone audio system at the moment for my videos.Embedded Forth Stepper Motor DemoIn my 22 year experience, Linux (any Unix really) gets exponentially better the further one moves away from Windows which is hard to inter-work with BY DESIGN.

author: rx8pilot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 20, 2019, 02:05:52 pm
content: Quote from: techman-001 on May 20, 2019, 12:22:07 amThere is not much left of 1997 Windows. While I have gripes about the MS dark overlords monitoring every keystroke I make - Windows 10 is pretty good, very stable, and very easy to use. For that reason, those of us that have to interface with the corporate world, you have to interface with Windows or die.I spent a short time learning a bit more about Samba configuration and now I am up and running with shares for my Windows machines. Linux/Samba, as most already know, offers very good control over the whole thing. Even in my tiny home experiment, it is rather easy. The hardest part of being a Linux Noob is sifting through all the opinions and rotten information on the internet. I am slowly honing in on the sources of decent information to best help me get to a pro level of skill in Linux. I have an excellent set of Windows skills and can deal with just about anything - that is where I want to be with Linux as soon as practical.

author: apis
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 20, 2019, 03:20:56 pm
content: Quote from: techman-001 on May 20, 2019, 12:22:07 am

author: GregDunn
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 20, 2019, 05:29:24 pm
content: Quote from: rx8pilot on May 08, 2019, 01:56:58 pmI've been using LibreOffice (since I'm not working for anyone any longer, no M$ software is allowed in this house) and the latest major versions are highly compatible with Office syntax. As in, I take fairly complex Excel spreadsheets with lots of inter-sheet math functions, import them, and run with it.I did use Windows from about 1985 till I retired (at work only), and have always kept current with using the three major OS types. IMHO the latest Windows UI is still full of cranky and inconsistent paradigms, while the Linux UI (s) is a clear leap ahead (far better than it was 10 years ago, but still 10 years behind Mac OS). Mac and Linux being based on the Unix core is another plus, because a huge amount of software just needs to be recompiled to move from one to the other. The real divider between Mac and Linux for me is the presence of some important commercial sw which I need to get my work done, which Linux doesn't - may never - have.