New PNP machine : ZB3545TS - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: TJ232
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2017, 06:57:14 am
content: I am still looking for a small size PNP machine small enough and good enough for small proto batches/testing, easy to program/debug and also to be able to keep it in the Office.Main preference still remain for a PNP machine with some decent European/US support but as for example the SmallSMT long awaited PNP machine (codename Unobtanium) looks to be again delayed (another year!) I am actively looking for options.This seems to be another new released machine with some interesting features: 4 heads, servo, leadscrew, feeders, etc :Is anybody out there that had the chance to see it a bit closer or working already with?Manufacturer link here:http://www.wzzbdz.com/en/product/181.htmlIt's in that "english language", but at least some description thereCheers,TJ.PS: Meanwhile I am also slowly building my own, we will see which process will end first, buying or building it)

author: thommo
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2017, 05:09:57 am
content: Hi TJ232,That machine looks to be clean and well made.We have a QiHe TVM920 currently and, aside from the 'normal Chinesiem complaints about poor software apps, it works well.I believe you'll quickly tire of changing components in those 30 feeders [and even more quickly run out of feeders], and for this reason I'd certainly encourage you towards a machine with greater capacity. 30 feeders will get you 'most' of the distance [possibly - pending on your designs] but you need to appreciate that any component in a tape that is wider that 8mm [and there are plenty] will, at minimum, double your feeder slots requirement [one 12mm feeder takes up three 8mm slots, or two if it is placed in a group of other 12mm or 16mm feeders].Check out the TVM920 if you haven't already [it has 56 8mm slots - 28 front & back, and capacity for 30 IC Tray components too], and let me know if I can assist with an intro to them.Good luck - Peter

author: SimonD
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2017, 12:10:09 pm
content: Hi Peter,the feeders and and IC trays are included when you buy the machine - TVM920, (as i can see in AliExpress for about 6275€) or you have to buy them separately ?The ZHENGBANG ZB3545TS (first post) looks like be the same as the SMT330.Thanks

author: TJ232
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2017, 02:35:52 pm
content: Thanks Peter!I was also looking at TVM920 machine and it's definitely a promising choice. I am a bit affraid about the size of the machine and if it will fit inside the office, we have only standard 78cm wide open doorsAs you are using the machine already, the 100 million dollars questions: how bad is the software and how good is the support?

author: TJ232
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2017, 02:39:09 pm
content: It looks VERY similar with SMT330!!I mean...which one is the original and which one the copy?Or maybe is the same, from the same factory, just rebranded for 2 different resellers ?

author: SimonD
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2017, 04:52:10 pm
content: I think is rebranded from one manufacturer as this is very common with many products in China...

author: mrpackethead
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2017, 01:43:20 am
content: Go hunting for a good 2nd hand Yamaha YV100 or similar.. Will cost you $10-12k. Solid workhorse and will eat these lost cost desktop machines for breakfast. I did this and dont' regret it.

author: jmelson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2017, 03:48:56 am
content: Quote from: mrpackethead on November 13, 2017, 01:43:20 amWell, I have a Philips CSM84, made by Yamaha, I think the equivalent Yamaha model might be YM84. Yes, definitely built like a tank, and very robust nozzles and such parts. But, it is quite big. Mine is 5 x 7 feet and weighs some 780 Kg. And, you can expect at least a little bit of maintenance with a 10+ year-old machine. But, I have cranked out well over 1000 boards on mine, and a very rough calculation seems to indicate over 100,000 components mounted.Jon

author: NF6X
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 19, 2017, 05:06:13 pm
content: Quote from: thommo on November 12, 2017, 05:09:57 amI don't quite understand how to figure out how many feeder slots will be occupied by wider feeders yet. I had assumed that a 12mm feeder would occupy two slots. From your comment, I'm guessing that the centerline of a 12mm feeder would need to be centered in a feeder slot, and it would overhang 2mm into each adjacent slot? Does this also imply that a 16mm feeder would occupy three slots unless grouped with other similar feeders which share overhung slots? Would a 32mm feeder occupy five slots instead of four? Can feeders in the two end slots generally overhang on the outer edges for free in the small machines?

author: jmelson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2017, 09:18:38 pm
content: Right, you group all your wider feeders so you only lose one slot between them. If you were to alternate 8 and 12 mm feeders, you'd lose a slot on each side of the 12 mm one.If you have a row of 12 and 16mm feeders, you only skip one slot between each. When the feeders get to some next larger size then you have to skip TWO slots between feeders. That transition depends on the machine. Optimizing feeder placement is a skill you learn. Not only to get all the parts you need loaded on the machine, but also to optimize head movement.Jon

author: Koen
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 20, 2017, 08:00:53 pm
content: Quote from: TJ232 on November 11, 2017, 06:57:14 amI've built a few CNC machines and by far, the PNP was the easiest/fastest. OpenPNP is great, there is nearly no physical effort to counter, specialized parts like nozzles are cheap and easily available, format is small/light and ultimately, cameras make things very forgiving. Give it a try. To replicate the specs above : Hiwin guides and TBI ballscrews would cost you 350 USD, servos 500 USD, feeders 50 USD each, cameras 100 USD, vacuum bundle 150 USD. You only need to source a solid base and a few adapter plates locally. And as you've built it, you'll be able to support it.And before anyone answers : he said "good enough for small proto batches/testing", not "6-line automated 24/7 critical production".

author: pieman103021
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2017, 08:09:26 pm
content: Quote from: Koen on December 20, 2017, 08:00:53 pmMore out of curiosity than anything else, do you have any photos of your PNP?

author: Koen
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2017, 09:21:14 pm
content: I only have this poor-quality picture sent to my dad early in the build. The goal was "0402, cheap, easy, fast" after much longer and bothersome builds of a lathe and a mill (pics at [removed by myself])Anyway, design goal was to have front-loading pneumatic feeders for cheap stuff and many tape-strips holders for expensive components. The central ballscrew is a waste of space but it's much easier than one on the side or two in sync. The gantry could be lighter but movements are fast enough anyway. Steel plates are indexed with 5mm dowels and allow me to apply paste on PCBs or reload components on the side then switch plates. Hope it inspires someone, it's an ideal first CNC build as it's very forgiving.[Removed as you've seen it]

author: mrpackethead
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2017, 11:01:43 pm
content: Yes, i'm actually quite amazed at how forgivign PNP and PCB assembly is in general actually.. It do'snt ahve to be perfect for you to get it to work well.