What's your jellybean microcontroller? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: I_may_be_drunk_right_now
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2014, 02:55:27 am
content: I bought a dozen 12F683s in the DIP package just because it seems like it's a handy cheap microcontroller to have around.Anybody have a specific small microcontroller they like to keep around? I'm not a rabid Microchip fan, I just happen to have the programmer for them.By small, I mean both physically and software overhead-wise. I don't mind putting a microcontroller to debounce a switch and light a LED for two minutes, but I don't need a Linux device for that.

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2014, 02:56:38 am
content: Wow ... what a cool nick you got there ! Cool ! ....

author: andyturk
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2014, 03:01:03 am
content: STM32F405

author: bingo600
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2014, 03:51:05 am
content: ATmega 328 for flash/ram , and ATtiny85 for space. ATtiny84 is also nice , and somewhere in the middle. An avr programmer is quite cheap,and avr-gcc is free./BingoEdit: just saw the new Tiny841 , seems like a 84 w. An uart.The Tiny9/10 are really small , and usefull for a custom funktion thingy.I'd rekommend to get the real avrisp-mkii programmer , if usling the tiny9/10'sAnd maybe even if usling th larger parts,it really is the Best programmer.

author: Skimask
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2014, 04:36:53 am
content: PIC10F322 - physically smallest PIC there isPIC12F683 - smallest PIC with some featuresPIC16F753 - smallest PIC with even more featuresPIC18F1320 - smallest PIC18F with even more features and fasterPIC18F27J53 - smallest PIC with features and USB and fasterPIC18F67K22 - physically small SMD package PIC with lots of pins, flash, and speedEventually switch gears and add some STM32F4 chips to the mix, when I run out of PICs.

author: JoeN
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2014, 08:24:03 am
content: Quote from: Skimask on February 22, 2014, 04:36:53 amHmmm... Microchip's datasheets shows their 8-DFNs as 2x3x0.9mmHow about 1.388x1.54x0.433mm from their "better half" (ATTINY20-UUR, 12 terminals, 2K flash, 128B RAM):

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2014, 10:16:47 am
content: MSP430 value series for small stuff.

author: lapm
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2014, 11:05:38 am
content: Now those are some tiny controllers. Wondering how re-flow at home equipment is able to handle those...

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2014, 12:49:38 pm
content: Pre-tin the pads, clean, add flux and use a hot air station. Peanuts!

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2014, 12:57:53 pm
content: Low pin count: 12F675;Medium pin count: Pro Mini (Minimus was the one);High pin count: PIC24F.

author: gocemk
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2014, 01:24:14 pm
content: PIC12F629 and PIC16F676 (DIP). - They are pretty cheap, and more important, readily available at my local electronics dealer.For something more complicated, PIC18F in DIP package.I also have PIC32 and STM32, but so far i haven't done anything "professional" with them. Although currently i am working on a project with the STM32, but it's for school.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2014, 01:46:38 pm
content: 12F683 seems to be quite similar to 12F675 (if not identical).16F690 is actually a pretty good chip. The newer 15/19xx chips are very good too.No one mentioned STM8S?

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2014, 02:04:03 pm
content: ATtiny44 if i need an ADCATtiny2313 if i need a UARTIf i need ATMega features i usually put a bit more effort into finding a specific ATMega that suits the project.From memory i've used..ATMega162ATMega165ATMega64ATMega8ATMega16ATMega88ATMega640ATMega8535 (First mega i ever used, but it was called the AT90S8535 back then)ATMega328

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2014, 02:44:34 pm
content: for smallest stuff PIC10F322next up PIC12F1822/3 - small part with UART and other useful stuffThen PIC24FJ64GA002/4 - remappable peripheral pins make PCB layout a lot quickerThen PIC32MX150B128 - plenty of horsepower, memory, decent range of peripherals and wide range of packages from QFN to DIPA major decider is that I have bootloaders for all of the above, and PC software to talk to them so can quickly adapt to a new design, and all use the same devtools.Another deciding factor is that Ii can buy them preprogrammed and custom marked from MicrochipDirect for a few pennies more.

author: hans
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2014, 06:24:03 pm
content: My most jeallybean part is PIC24FJ64GB004. Plenty of memory, RTOS, quick A/D, 2 SPI, 2 UART, 2 I2C , and USB (with internal crystal accurate enough for that) in 28SSOP or 44QFP. If I need more CPU power, I can often drop in a dsPIC33FJ128GP804 (no USB) or PIC32MX250F128 (USB).For smaller projects I'd take a PIC16F1508/9, which has an UART, ADC, XLP, SPI/I2C, and is very very cheap (1 euro in 1-off). There is also a smaller pin count version, but they don't have an UART and less memory.Large projects typically require something special, then I will look for a particular micro like PIC32 (the MX4 series & up), LPC1700, STM32F4, etc.

author: Skimask
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2014, 02:52:45 am
content: Quote from: JoeN on February 22, 2014, 08:24:03 amI can solder wires onto an 8DFN.How's soldering wires to BGA balls going for you?

author: JoeN
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2014, 05:49:24 am
content: Quote from: Skimask on February 23, 2014, 02:52:45 amNot well so far!I put 5 of these (at a cost of about $5.50) on my last Digikey order just for a challenge in finding a PCB vendor who can make it. I will make it work at some point!For DFN-10 (should work fine for DFN-8 too) there are adapters out there at very modest cost that work well and you don't end up with a dead bug on your prototype.http://www.ebay.com/itm/5pcs-New-DFN10-eMSOP10-to-DIP10-Adapter-PCB-Board-Converter-with-Cooling-Pad-F65-/181328677243

author: westfw
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2014, 09:22:39 am
content: yeah; I sorta gave up on the very tiny NXP ARMs (and now freescale has some too) in CSBGA packages when I realized that none of the PCB vendors I was likely to be able to deal with could drill holes small enough to do the BGA breakout, even if I sprung for 4 layers and go creative about wasting pins to make things almost routable...

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2014, 09:59:38 am
content: STM32F103 if I really have to go lower for a price, then I select something from the M0, microchip or AVR just for the task.

author: SteveyG
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 23, 2014, 04:24:12 pm
content: Always used to be the PIC18F2620.What's the reference to jellybeans though, I've never understood.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2014, 04:27:36 pm
content: Quote from: SteveyG on February 23, 2014, 04:24:12 pmCommon, cheap, easily obtained. The generic thing you can get anywhere. Like jellybeans.

author: SteveyG
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 23, 2014, 04:28:49 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on February 23, 2014, 04:27:36 pmJelly beans are anything but cheap in the UK though. Jelly Belly charge a fortuneMaybe wine gums is a better one for us...

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2014, 04:48:53 pm
content: QuoteCheap, plentiful, throw-away parts.

author: Frost
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2014, 04:53:41 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on February 23, 2014, 04:27:36 pmAh, now I understand what was meantBecause here in germany you find jelly beansonly in few stores in big cities.

author: SteveyG
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 23, 2014, 05:56:16 pm
content: Quote from: Frost on February 23, 2014, 04:53:41 pmYeah it doesn't translate well.

author: westfw
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2014, 10:36:53 am
content: It used to be PIC12F675 or ATtiny11, but I think these days it might be ATmega8/etc. (why yes, it might be a reasonable tradeoff to pay an extra $1 for 8x or $2 for 32x the memory...)

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2014, 10:41:34 am
content: attinys are pretty cheap but there isnt much difference between atmega and budget arm chips

author: MrAureliusR
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 24, 2014, 01:12:08 pm
content: I like how people have mentioned some of the ATtinys, the 841, 861A, 2313A and 13A are my favourites. I've been using the ATtiny13A for a long time. 8 pins, but very flexible. It's a bonus that the ATtiny85 is a pin-for-pin drop-in replacement with more memory and more peripherals. So if you start a design with the 13A but run out of program space or need a different serial protocol you can just pop in the 85 and switch the software to that chip and bingo, you're off and running.However my new jellybean micro is quickly becoming the TI Tiva C TM4C129XNCZAD. It's pretty much brand new (less than a year old), costs like $22 in one-offs, but man this thing is awesome! The datasheet isover 2200 pages longand the API library is almost a thousand pages long as well. I've never used an ARM before but man, I am totally in love with this micro. I have it on the DK-TM4C129X Connected Development Kit from TI. Has on-board ethernet, SD card, 64MB flash chip, USB host/device/OTG, separate USB ICDI, 3.5" TFT touchscreen interface, speaker with LM4819 amp, a gazillion pin headers to break out many of the 212 pins on the BGA, the BoosterPack connectors that TI uses (both regular and XL)... I mean the features just go on and on. I literally haven't even come close to listing them all. I know the board is expensive but if you're considering using Tiva micros it's a great bargain. The Tiva C LaunchPad is like $25 or something and it has all the same features, you just have to add the hardware yourself.I am really starting to love the TI stuff![Full Disclosure: I was recently hired to write about TI microcontrollers and the LaunchPad/BoosterPack system, but being completely honest I really liked the system before I was hired -- which is part of the reason they contacted me I think. However I'm still an AVR guy at heart, I love my Atmel chips! I'm not trying to push any agenda here, I just genuinely like their parts]

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2014, 01:16:37 pm
content: Quote from: MrAureliusR on February 24, 2014, 01:12:08 pmNice micro, but doesn't $22 kind of disqualify it from being a jellybean...?

author: JoeN
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2014, 04:43:24 pm
content: Quote from: c4757p on February 24, 2014, 01:16:37 pmIt's also a 212 ball BGA part still in preview. Not sure how this qualifies as a jellybean at all. But it looks like a nice part. NO SAMPLES.

author: Skimask
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2014, 05:44:20 pm
content: Quote from: JoeN on February 24, 2014, 04:43:24 pmAnd here we are soldering wires onto a BGA again

author: JoeN
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2014, 05:49:07 pm
content: Quote from: Skimask on February 24, 2014, 05:44:20 pmJust to be fair (to me!), I never suggested that Atmel part was a jellybean part, only that it was ultra-small. Yes, and an ultra-PITA.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2014, 11:45:29 pm
content: -However my new jellybean micro is quickly becoming the TI Tiva C TM4C129XNCZAD. -I have to say that from a feature rich and ease of programming perspective, I love those to cm4 chips. Tons of peripherals and they are identical - reminds me of pic24.on the flip side, they could have worked out the luminary bugs before releasing them as ti chips.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2014, 11:47:19 pm
content: What is and isn't cheap is highly subjective.

author: jolshefsky
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 25, 2014, 12:49:17 am
content: I'll just chime in with the PIC12F683 as well, mostly because it's just what I started with. The PIC18F2550 is my go-to chip for when I need more pins/features. I stuck with Microchip because I since when I started using them, their stuff tends to work. I haven't done much fancy (e.g. graceful brownout detection and the like) but I got a handle on how to program them and built a bit of a C framework in with the relatively clunky C compiler from CCS. I originally started with PIC writing assembler but got tired of reinventing the wheel with each program.I've kind of avoided Arduino and Atmel's processors because I'm old and don't like new things, and Arduino has a bunch of stuff I don't need in every project. Plus my computer degree is from 1993, so I'm mostly just happy programming little 8-bit micros anyway....tl;dr: personal preference.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 25, 2014, 01:04:03 am
content: Quote1993? That makes you practically a baby.

author: JoeN
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 25, 2014, 01:13:19 am
content: Quote from: dannyf on February 25, 2014, 01:04:03 amUh, yeah. I went in 88-92 and we had 32 bit desktops by then (80386, though mostly running 16 bit software at the time) and did most of the real work on an Amdahl IBM compatible mainframe running MVS. You shouldn't be considering yourself old yet unless you went in late.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 25, 2014, 02:50:48 am
content: I mostly use PICs, specifically the PIC24s and dsPICs. Then again, a lot of my projects use "high end" microcontrollers. For low end stuff, I really like the MSP430s and PIC16/PIC18, probably because I have a bunch of those lying around.

author: lgbeno
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 25, 2014, 03:45:50 am
content: Usually msp430g2553 but lately I'm drawn to the Zero Gecko, they are inexpensive and seem packed with features.

author: westfw
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 25, 2014, 05:15:25 am
content: QuoteI agree with the people who don't think that qualifies as a "jellybean."OTOH, I could argue that today's high-end jellybeans are those low-cost BOARDS that abound.Tiva Launchpad, Freescale Freedom, NXP LPCxpresso, ST Discovery, Beaglebone, Teensy3, Raspberry Pi... Doesn't matter: pretty much any of those boards can be obtained quicker and cheaper than I can design, fab, and build anything in .65mm pitch or finer package.

author: JoeN
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 25, 2014, 07:44:13 am
content: Quote from: westfw on February 25, 2014, 05:15:25 amSometimes that makes sense. I used one of these on a recent project. It's compact, a nice processor programmable directly by Arduino, and it has a USB connection on it. A knockoff of Adafruit's Arduino Micro.http://www.ebay.com/itm/400610628809

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 25, 2014, 11:50:47 am
content: QuoteIt didn't route out ADC0/1, missing a critical part of the adc module.To me, you either get the real thing (with ADC0/1 routed out), or a pro mini.

author: neslekkim
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 25, 2014, 12:00:40 pm
content: Quote from: SteveyG on February 23, 2014, 05:56:16 pm

author: jolshefsky
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 25, 2014, 01:42:23 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on February 25, 2014, 11:39:45 amPerhaps I missed an important point: I started with PICs, they worked perfectly fine, and I continue to use them because they do. If I had experienced "suckyness" I would have switched to a different processor immediately.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 25, 2014, 01:52:35 pm
content: QuoteAbsolutely. Every chip sucks in some regards - as long as we cannot produce a perfect chip.Sucky engineers avoid chips with suckyness; Good engineers use chips with suckyness.

author: jolshefsky
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 25, 2014, 02:15:51 pm
content: Quote from: westfw on February 25, 2014, 05:15:25 amI could argue that none of the processors can qualify as jellybean parts. One example is resistors (e.g.1K SMD):QtyUnitTotal1US$0.08US$0.0810US$0.048US$0.48100US$0.027US$2.701,000US$0.018US$18.005,000US$0.005US$25.00But for even cheap microcontrollers, the price drop isn't much. My go-to 8-pin in an SMD, thePIC12F683works out like this:1US$1.31US$1.3110US$1.09US$10.90100US$1.04US$104.00One might consider theLM555a "jellybean" part, so it works out like this:QtyUnitTotal1US$0.44US$0.4410US$0.291US$2.91100US$0.162US$16.201,000US$0.109US$109.0010,000US$0.095US$950.00100,000US$0.081US$8,100.00There's no perfect formula here, but if you buy 5,000 resistors, the price drops to 1/16th if bought in single units, 10,000 LM555's cost nearly 1/5th the unit price each, but the PIC12F683 only drops to 79% its unit value when purchased in quantity.I'd say for a part to be "jellybean" it should probably cost less than, say US$1 in high quantities, AND the high-quantity price should be less than half its unit price.But for the sake of argument, "jellybean" could also mean "parts you keep track of as a pile rather than as individual units." If you have a pile of resistors, you don't worry if you drop one or fry one—like if you had a pile of jellybeans, you wouldn't really miss one (until it's the last one). Compare that to, say, 10 DC-DC converters where each one might cost US$25, and if you fry one, it's more than just a nuisance.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 25, 2014, 02:56:49 pm
content: mine STM8S207, found a small reel of them in the container. So no charge of costs except that I am kinda dependent on the compiler of my work (no free ones around that unlimited time support 32k/64k) which is quite unfortunately.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 25, 2014, 03:23:23 pm
content: QuoteGood chip, nicer find.

author: Lunasix
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 25, 2014, 03:28:29 pm
content: For me : PIC32MXxxx (120 to 695), and in rare cases PIC10 in sot23 or PIC12 in SO8, when very small package is needed, and for very small program. I will never use a PIC16 or PIC18 when a PIC32 gives much more for a price not really different.