Desktop selective soldering? Desktop wave soldering? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Rat_Patrol
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2020, 03:40:28 pm
content: THT components and connectors are cramping my style, and slowing down my production from what it could be.My big slowdown is the THT components. Between connectors and some other THT components (largely THT mosfets), I have roughly 160 THT solder joints to make per product (two boards per finished product). That takes time, and it highly irritates the nerve compression issues I have in my wrists/elbows holding little stuff for so long.For taxes, I need to spend some money before the end of the year. I am either going to get a Neoden 4 as an upgrade to my Charmigh 48 (which runs fine, and I would keep it as a second/backup machine) or now I'm looking into either selective solder or bench wave solder.My largest PCBS are 4 layer, 2 sided, roughly 150x200 in size. SMD components on both sides, bottom sides limited to SOT23, 1206 and smaller. I could use adhesive instead of paste on the bottom side and it could go through a wave soldering procedure instead of the 2 reflow procedure I run now, but I would prefer selective soldering instead of wave.Are there decent options out there in the $15k USD price bracket? I saw that Manncorp has some benchtop selective fountains, but they want $60k for theirs. Out of my budget for now.

author: Mangozac
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2020, 08:40:08 pm
content: If I could get a selective wave systems for $15k I would buy it immediately. As you have found though, they start at 4 times that priceSoldering robots are apparently becoming quite popular, but these have plenty of drawbacks too. They take a lot of time to program and you need to make a jig to hold the parts in place while the PCB is upside down.

author: IconicPCB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2020, 10:42:22 pm
content: I too am contemplating a selectie soldering machine.Second hand gear in the 15K range is available but it is typically 10+ years old and I do not feel like paying that much for other people's problems.I have been looking at getting a solder fountain and organising own manual machine frame around it.I reckon for about USD5K i could organise a decent manual process.

author: Mangozac
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 17, 2020, 01:04:25 am
content: Quote from: IconicPCB on December 16, 2020, 10:42:22 pmIf that's the case it would be worth considering building more than one and I'll buy one from you!How would you do fluxing?

author: IconicPCB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 17, 2020, 05:52:37 am
content: I think Wenesco still offer solder fountains ( pot with pump ) where user can add own motor and heater controls.A simple adjustable rail slider mechanism and Bob's your uncle.The idea being purchase the difficult to make bits and assemble them into a semi automatic / manual machine.They also offer foam fluxers but then again a hand spray bottle is just as good.In any case the choice of applicator depends on the flux. Low solids fluxes ( ie no clean in general ) will not foam up particularly well and may be more suited to spraying.A plain domestic stove hot plate could be used as a pre heater /flux drier.And so that is the thinking in a nutshell.

author: Mangozac
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 17, 2020, 07:10:18 am
content: The term "selective solder" seems to be used a bit too freely around the place. They're calling anything that's not a full size wave (say 300mm long) a selective solder. OP's issue with manual operation is that he has SMT parts on the bottom, so the path of the fountain will need to be controlled along quite a precise route.We had a wave solder machine in the past and hated it. It actually finally got disassembled and sold as scrap metal this year! Correct fluxing is the most critical part; foam fluxers are a pain and spray fluxers can be messy. We found fluxing with a spray bottle to be inadequate as it doesn't achieve sufficiently small flux droplets to get up in the component leads in the holes, leading to dry joints.Any manual process will need a sufficiently trained operator so repeatability can be an issue...

author: 48X24X48X
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 17, 2020, 07:20:41 am
content: I'm currently in the same situation. I avoid through hole components whenever possible but at times had to used them for production. Was looking at selective soldering and bumped into it's price tag. Then I saw a bunch of 4-axis soldering robots from China (I think Hakko has proper ones), and was thinking this probably this is what I need and what I could afford. Something not so expensive and small. Has anyone here use them before? It does take in position files and you can program it to put certain amount of solder on it.

author: Mangozac
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 17, 2020, 07:26:32 am
content: Quote from: 48X24X48X on December 17, 2020, 07:20:41 amThese are very much get what you pay for. More affordable units will be highly manual programming but higher end units automate the process somewhat. This is also susceptible to issues with warped PCBs, so higher end machine use a laser distance sensor. Lastly, you will need to make a special jig for each board type to hold all of the components in place while the PCB is upside down being soldered.

author: fcb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 17, 2020, 10:12:39 am
content: We recently looked into selective vs robot vs wave. Actually went to Pillarhouse (www.pillarhouse.co.uk) to play with a selective. Lockdown thwarted a trip to see robotic soldering.My conclusions:#1 design/redesign your board to use wave if you are making batches of 100. It's cheaper and really fast - takes up more floorspace, power and requires proper venting. But once you get over the hump, you don't think about any more. New machines aren't cheap, but 2nd hand are pretty reliable - not much to go wrong. Warm-up is a few hours. CMS4000, ERSA.#2 Selective for <100 makes sense. Machines are fairly expensive (£30K+), need very good 99.995% N2 supply (£10K or a large N2 supply outside!). But minimal tooling required, results are excellent and fairly quick to program. Warm-up is 30mins. Pillarhouse Jade Mk2, ERSA.*this is the route I would take, although N2 is a PITA*#3 Robotic. Beguiling to watch; but sloooow. Which might not be an issue. Don't use much space, no N2 and no warm-up. Thermaltronics make a nice but pricey unit, Apollo Seiko J-Cat Lyra seems like a decent price vs. perfromance - more common.I don't think you could build/sell a selective for less than £15K, the volume isn't high and the R&D on the solder pump/fountain/nozzle and spray fluxer is non-trivial. You could build a soldering robot for alot less but the market is small. If someone SERIOUSLY want's to bell-the-cat with a soldering robot I'd share my notes (likely they would reach the same conclusions if they spent enough time studying the market).

author: Rat_Patrol
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 17, 2020, 09:43:36 pm
content: In my case, all my components that are used on the bottom side of the PCB are rated for wave soldering.My process would go from paste/place/reflow on the bottom to glue/place/cure and they would actually solder during the wave soldering process.However,Are there more desktop sized versions? I don't have a ton of space available and none of it is on concrete.

author: Mangozac
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 17, 2020, 10:14:29 pm
content: Rat_Patrol, what's your current and anticipated throughput?

author: Rat_Patrol
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 18, 2020, 12:49:41 am
content: Up to 20 boards per day.

author: fcb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 18, 2020, 12:26:29 pm
content: There are small bench-top wave machines. No experience with the small ones, be interesting to see what's out there.

author: Mangozac
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 18, 2020, 10:58:55 pm
content: Prompted by this discussion, I've had another look around at the various options out there at the moment.Yes, there are benchtops wave solder machines. Such a short preheater length means that they will be slow but at OP's volume that won't really be an issue.You can get basic units described as "selective solder" but these are really just a tiny solder fountain. You still have to manually flux, preheat and then move the board over the wave using the right motion. IMO this is a poor approach as it leaves far too much room for operator variability.Compact "full size" wave solder machines are available for under the US$10k mark. I saw a company Shenzhen Jaguar at an exhibition last year and the quality of their machines looked very high. Unfortunately I was looking for a reflow oven at the time so I didn't take notice of their wave machines but I'd expect them to be similarly high (they are "developed" and manufactured in-house) I'm considering whether their N200 might be a good fit for me due to its compact size. I also like the idea of the discrete controls option, so it's easy to repair if something does.https://m.alibaba.com/product/62053735526/Jaguar-N200-Mini-Lead-Free-Wave.html

author: Reckless
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 20, 2020, 12:29:13 am
content: I have a benchtop wave solder machine for sale. PM me if interested.

author: Mangozac
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 20, 2020, 05:27:53 am
content: Quote from: Reckless on December 20, 2020, 12:29:13 amI've been waiting for you to turn up and say that 😂

author: forrestc
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 20, 2020, 07:17:19 am
content: I just submitted a PO for a Pillarhouse Pilot (with one final verification they have to do before I fully commit). Hope it's as good as a machine as I expect. Without the nitrogen, it's about double what you're looking to pay. I sprung for the nitrogen gen and got to about 3x what you are willing to pay, and then a bit more since I'm a big fan of keeping spares on hand and threw on way too many spares.We also are in a fairly small area for the actual soldering assembly, and I didn't want to end up with a full-sized machine. So the smaller pilot seems perfect, as it's a benchtop machine, or in our case the nitrogen generator will act as the stand for the machine.In many ways, we do similar boards to what you do, just at a higher quantity. We do up to around 50 boards/day, many of which are connector heavy. I.E., 100-150 pins/board, which means we hand-solder around 5-6000 pins/shift when we're running the connector heavy boards. There are also boards we churn a lot more through on other days, but those are like a dozen pins per board to solder.I'm lucky enough to have a very efficient soldering operator. It also helps that the connectors we are soldering are fairly easy to solder since they are typically modular connectors or 0.1 pitch headers, so you can 'drag' solder. Unfortunately, he's now starting to have the early signs that it's time for him to no longer do this level of soldering (i.e. repetitive stress), so it's time to move to a more automated solution.I have a soldering robot that I bought a year or two back. I never was able to spend enough time to get it to work reliably. I think it would work fine if you had the time to get it working and dial in a board's program. I just neither had the time nor patience to actually spend with it. I guess it's for sale now, or will be soon.In other news, I also have a novastar 12S wave solder machine (SnPb pot) and a madell R330 reflow oven for sale as well.Once I get this selective soldering machine in place, it will be time to clean house a bit of older machinery.