finally doing data recovery on my roland fa08's internal storage - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / beginners

author: testtube44
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2025, 10:30:22 pm
content: im back with more for my roland fa08 (2014?) that got "undesirably factory resetted" in may 2017. i want to dump the data from the internal storage to see if its really erased, and attempt to recover it if its still there in a deallocated state.roland fa08 is a music synthesizer which stores songs on a sd card (i have those), but for some reason stores sounds and other settings the songs use, on embedded storage chips (these are lost).for some reason ive always thought there was no filesystem on the internal storage, but i dont have evidence of that, what are the chances the internal storage actually uses a filesystem, and which type might it be?so yeah im not fully convinced a factory reset does a secure-erase or whatever, i used to assume that when it factory resets it just flips all the bits to 0 on the chips, but now that i know slightly more about storage devices and filesystems than i used to, i think that sounds pretty stupid, wasteful, and unlikely. my new hypothesis is that the chips might not really be erased during factory reset, but instead its more like reformatting a thumbdrive, the filesystem is rebuilt and the old data is deallocated without erasing it. this would make more sense because zeroing every bit isnt necessary if the filesystem can just be rebuilt, and erasing every bit would just wear out the memory cells faster.so im planning on desoldering the chips, putting them in a chip programmer (slightly expensive chinese crap device probably) to dump the data, and if my data is still there i will discover the filesystem type and un-delete the data, write the changes back to the chips, and resolder the chips back in.any information you can provide might be helpful, because i know definitely nothing about embedded systems, so please do say it. what is likely happening when its doing a factory reset? how do embedded filesystems handle their data?

author: testtube44
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2025, 10:35:11 pm
content: i should also mention that ive strongly refrained from writing new sounds to it ever since, so not much or any data is overwritten if the data was still there after the incident, and now i cant even do that because the "write" button (the only way to save a sound) is broken and i need to fix that too, unrelated to this post.

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 22, 2025, 12:15:03 am
content: First thing you'll need to do is identify what it physically uses for internal storage, before even getting into details about the logical structure.

author: testtube44
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 22, 2025, 07:39:35 pm
content: it uses flash memory chips made by a company that got acquired by infineon a few years ago. i thought the documents for this were gone (but i had the old docs from before the merger), but on my 2nd look i found it online again. i tried an old link and it redirected me to a document rebranded with infineons logo. i read through some of my older copy of the pdf, and it doesnt seem to have hardware encryption or anything crazy, doesnt seem too complicated to interface with if i just figure it out.theyre cypress S29GL01GS/S29GL512S or S29GL256S/S29GL128S flash memory chips. and if you search it something similar appears on infineons website. the ones im dealing with are in the tsop56 package.i also searched for what can interface with a tsop56 and found some $200 china chip programmer thing.i would prefer to use linux for this project because its my main os, but i also have windows 7 if i need to use that instead.

author: testtube44
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 22, 2025, 07:53:34 pm
content: im just here asking about it to make sure there isnt anything im misunderstanding/missing/doing wrong in this process.as i understand it:desolder chips.put chips in china chip reader.use some kind of software to send commands to make the chip dump data, send data to a binary disk image.figure out if theres data to recover, figure out the filesystem, do what i need to do.write the data back using more commands.resolder chips back in.hope it works.am i missing anything?

author: testtube44
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 22, 2025, 07:56:11 pm
content: its probably important to mention also that theres 4, is it possible theyre connected like a raid array or something?maybe some store default instruments and expansions (the fa08 can take paid expansion packs), and others are for user data?i can provide board pictures.

author: testtube44
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 22, 2025, 10:03:55 pm
content: images of the chips in attachments. everything else i tried identifying turns up as things like DRAM, cpu, etc.

author: testtube44
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 22, 2025, 11:50:26 pm
content: those chips are all on a single board, 2 per side, hence the image names. the board is the same board with sd card slot, and usb connections, its probably the main board.

author: testtube44
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 24, 2025, 04:03:12 pm
content: lol i guess nobody can/wants to help me with this.

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 25, 2025, 12:27:27 am
content: I read one response.You can trash China's industries all you want, but please respect the people there. Maybe some Asians did have answers and better ideas, how to help you solve problems.BTW, IC's don't 'wear out' from a couple dozen extra writes. Maybe the soldering / un soldering could do some heat related 'aging'.

author: testtube44
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 25, 2025, 12:53:27 am
content: no offense was intended, just describing it. and also that last post is because i thought nobody wanted to bother with this post, just thinking outloud. if anything that last post is kinda self-depricate ngl.

author: pqass
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 25, 2025, 05:34:59 am
content: Looking at thedatasheet for the S29GL128S flash, it can be read like an ordinary SRAM.Using a 3.3V MCU with enough pins (22 bit address, 16 bit data, /CE and /OE) and a UART/USB/Ethernet for upload to a host would work; like a RaspberryPi+'HC595s for extra outputs.Even if you were to read the contents, it may not be obvious how the data is organized; don't assume a FAT filesystem. It likely spreads the writes across the chip or over multiple chips. Why would you need to write back? If you're able to recover lost sounds, wouldn't you just re-enter using the UI?

author: Analog Kid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 25, 2025, 05:47:07 am
content: Quote from: pqass on September 25, 2025, 05:34:59 amGawd; what if it's interleaved like CD data at the sector level?What a friggin' nightmare ...

author: Haenk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 25, 2025, 07:07:34 am
content: With 16bit data bus, I assume they are mapped one after another, likely no interleaving or messing with byte orders.With support of USB, there certainly is a file system present (no point in using some raw data storage), might be some Linuxy/Unixy-format.The format command is likely just a recreation of the filesystem, and not an overwrite of data (that would take a while, and does not make a lot of sense in this device).So I assume the recovery is possible.

author: testtube44
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 25, 2025, 09:21:09 am
content: i made lots and lots of stuff, if im lucky and this thing has a filesystem that allows me to un-delete, writing back is probably the much faster option. also i should clarify that its not really sounds, its synthesizer settings, each one is called a instrument in the keyboard.

author: testtube44
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 25, 2025, 09:22:09 am
content: damn! and i thought this stuff was gone for years. good thing i second-guessed that.

author: testtube44
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 25, 2025, 09:24:16 am
content: Quote from: Haenk on September 25, 2025, 07:07:34 amit takes software updates and instrument expansion packs via a usb thumbdrive on a usb port. does this strongly indicate a filesystem? are you saying usb presence suggests a filesystem is also in use?

author: testtube44
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 25, 2025, 09:28:38 am
content: 1 concern i have is the price for this limited-use of a chip programmer, is there a cheaper option that just does exactly what i want to do here? i thought if i have to get something like that 200$ chip programmer, i would use it for only what i need, and then immediately turn around and resell it back to ebay or whatever.

author: testtube44
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 25, 2025, 09:37:55 am
content: i was planning on doing the soldering/desolding with some kind of non-hotair hack method, is that inadvisable? i only currently have a soldering iron.

author: pqass
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 26, 2025, 12:51:05 am
content: Quote from: testtube44 on September 25, 2025, 09:37:55 amYou could get by with two straight lengths of 14AWG copper wires (enough to cover leads on a side).Add flux to the the chip leads. Pre-tin wires (generously) with solder, flux, and pre-heat.Drop each hot wire over the pins (with tweezers) and keep heated (and on the pins) with your iron (going back and forth).Iron temp should be above lead-free solder temp (250-300*C).Poke at the chip until loose. Clean-up the pads and leads of bridges. Don't spare the flux.

author: MarkF
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 26, 2025, 10:22:19 am
content: Quote from: testtube44 on September 25, 2025, 09:21:09 amI would beg to differ. I have two Roland keyboards myself. They are basically a MIDI instrument with each key of each instrument having sound samples obtained from recording the real instrument. There is probably some synthesizer settings also which would adjust how effects are applied to each sample (reverb, chorus, sustain, etc.). Except for the general MIDI tones which don't have the extensive effort put into them. You need to understand how MIDI works. It's just a stream of commands: turn key 'x' On, turn key 'x' Off, set volume to 'x'. The processor then goes and looks up the tone samples for synthesis.Many manufactures actually boast of what instrument they sampled for the main instrument. For example, Casio's default piano sound is of a Steinway concert grand recorded in Hamburg. Their more expensive models also have a New York Grand and a Berlin Grand samples.And I seriously doubt there is a file system. The processor would not have enough time to deal with a filesystem and still be able to maintain the keyboards polyphony."Polyphony: How many notes the keyboard can play simultaneously. For modern keyboards it's 256 voices. I've seen as high as 384 voices."The keyboards processor probably reads a USB stick and saves the samples into the systems SRAM. Roland might be able to provide recovery media and instructions. But most likely will require you to send the keyboard back for repair.Sound samples are the heart of their business and highly protected!

author: testtube44
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 26, 2025, 06:29:11 pm
content: i know it uses samples, i left that part out on purpose because i dont think its relevant to what im actually tryring to recover. the stuff im trying to recover are the settings you set when you make named instruments and can choose what samples r played, what pitch, adsr settings, chosen effects, what partials are turned on, filter settings, etc. another thing im trying to recover is the "studio sets" that i made, which has things like, list of instruments together, effects routing, etc.if the sound samples are big (probably), then maybe theyre stored in a separate memory apart from the instruments and studio sets.if no filesystem then what do you think it uses? each instrument can have 1 of many different configurations which are all different in what settings they have, theyre named things like SN-A SN-D SN-S. so if not a filesystem then what? because all of these have different number of settings and the data for each instrument would be different and different length. is it all just a big long array of chunks of a certain number of bytes each? why would roland use something weird/custom like that instead of just picking the simplest filesystem that does the job?but truly none of us really know if it has a filesystem or not, unless any of yall have hacked into the memory of a similar synthesizer before, or actually worked or works in this industry. i will have to find out myself.

author: testtube44
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 26, 2025, 06:45:01 pm
content: Quote from: MarkF on September 26, 2025, 10:22:19 amwhy would it re-access the memory every time? what if it loads the relevant samples into RAM for faster access? how are you sure it doesnt do that?

author: testtube44
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 26, 2025, 07:21:48 pm
content: Quote from: MarkF on September 26, 2025, 10:22:19 amhow old?

author: MarkF
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 26, 2025, 08:36:19 pm
content: Quote from: testtube44 on September 26, 2025, 07:21:48 pmThe oldest is a HP-2900G (which is broken, no sound).The other is a FP-60X.

author: MarkF
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 26, 2025, 08:59:03 pm
content: Quote from: testtube44 on September 26, 2025, 06:45:01 pmAs @pqass pointed out, the memory is non-volatile RAM. There is no reason to copy or re-load it any where. The memory can be directly addressed. Roland and others have their own custom DSP processors though that do all the heavy lifting. I would expect it to have its own internal cache that it works from.Rolands newest keyboards have their 'SuperNATURAL Piano Modeling' which I'm not sure I understand its capabilities.

author: testtube44
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 27, 2025, 12:00:59 am
content: fa08 has 2 128MB storages, and 2 16MB storages, i just noticed how small those last 2 r, atleast its now clear where the instruments probably are given those space constraints.

author: testtube44
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 30, 2025, 01:43:43 pm
content: is that it, are all my plans in order now?

author: testtube44
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2025, 05:58:09 am
content: thanks for all the help! if theres anything anyone else has to add i will still check this for quite a while.