Test Equipment and the whole game - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: noobiedoobie
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 13, 2021, 05:01:31 pm
content: I am pretty new to the world of buying TE and I obviously I find it appalling and provocative when I look at howT&M equipment companies run their business and oh, obviously their prices.Here are a few questions:1. Why on earth and in this day and age do T&M companies(R&S, Keysight, Tek etc.) have this whole policy of selling only through their distributors? Its silly, what value are those schmuks adding to the process? Nil. When smartphone companies can sell millions of smartphones like vegetables online and honour warranty and customer greivances why can't these guys who sell utmost few 10,000s of gear at best in each country want to be in bed with distributors?Next time when the Siglent CEO or some other top guy from such companies comes visiting maybeDavecan suggest this?2. How does one negotiate with distributor schmuks? I guess that can only happen when we what their margins on the gear are? Can anyone add something here? also what is discount one can expect on the quotes they give 5%? 10? 1%?I recently asked for quotes from few schmuks for an SA and it was ridiculous. For one brand, I could easily import the same from the country of origin, pay customs duties and still save enough money to buy a bench power supply but because there is only one distributor in the city for that company he doesn't bother about cutting some slack and he thinks the company exists solely because of his dealership.3. I don't know why companies like RS, Digikey, Mouser etc exist. Seriously everytime I see their price I get a feeling that they think the world never recovered from the world wars and there is a global components/equipment shortage. Atleast this the case in my country. I ask this because I see a lot of people here using there companies and almost (just almost) everything they sell is available in the local market for a lot less. Oh! and I searched for a SA there and whom am I kiddingPrices are transparently 30%-60% more than company quotes.4. So where does this leave us? Amazon is still waking up to selling such gear and few are others are trying... What do the mavericks here do? How do go about buying new test gear when you have to? What are your SOPs?I am just sore because I believe scientific equipment in general are tools of innovation and when they get very expensive or out of reach for people it just doesn't hinder innovation it hinders humanity's progress. That is precisely why biological stuff is out of reach. The reagents and stuff are so expensive that there is no such thing as 'hobby biology'(not counting collecting dead animals and drawing them).Despite all the China bashing that keeps happening here I think only China can stick it to all these cocky companies.Edit:While its been an interesting discussion so far, I wish someone could answer the above questions. Seriously, what are the distributors' margins on scopes like?

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 13, 2021, 05:30:51 pm
content: How can you expect a civil answer when you won't even disclose where you are ?Just a clue in your profile would be enough ....flag, region, district......

author: purpose
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 13, 2021, 05:42:12 pm
content: I'm guessing he's in Antarctica.

author: noobiedoobie
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 13, 2021, 05:46:58 pm
content: ok sure Antarctica. None of my questions are region specific. Fire away... answer questions 2&4 atleast?

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 13, 2021, 05:48:46 pm
content: Quote from: noobiedoobie on March 13, 2021, 05:46:58 pmSo you think.

author: purpose
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 13, 2021, 05:49:56 pm
content: Who pissed in your cornflakes?

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 13, 2021, 05:51:58 pm
content: It's worse than that, sometimes even the distributors won't sell you one:https://www.batronix.com/shop/oscilloscopes/Keysight-DSOX1202G.html

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 13, 2021, 05:58:49 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on March 13, 2021, 05:51:58 pmRegister a company and deduct the investment from tax.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 13, 2021, 05:59:01 pm
content: Quote from: noobiedoobie on March 13, 2021, 05:01:31 pmThen there's companies like Fluke who are so entrenched that they can't even produce a meter that could be attractive to a hobbyist because it might upset their corporate accounts.(and it seems Fluke can't even improve their existing products because the institutions don't want it - they'll be making the 87V forever!)Luckily we have Brymen in the EU.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 13, 2021, 06:00:29 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on March 13, 2021, 05:58:49 pmFor a one-off purchase by an individual? That's a long delay, lots of paperwork, and probably more expensive after you've paid all the notaries and accountants.

author: noobiedoobie
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 13, 2021, 06:06:21 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on March 13, 2021, 05:30:51 pmYou are a distributor, you have an 'interest', sorry for everything I have said but from where I stand that the way things look. Its got nothing to do with region isnt it globally true?On a very objective, impersonal note do distributors really add any value in this sector which the company by itself cannot? Even on the B2B front none of them contact distributors, we contact the company(manufacturer) explain our requirements and they suggest a product and they bill it through a distributor and we couldn't care less whom it's coming from.I think in whole scheme of evolution and disruption of markets, T&M segment has never evolved. A 10-25% overhead just for the sake of the distributor pinches for a lot of small business and startups, forget hobbyistsYou know why China progressed so fast precisely because of this reason, because the 'tools of innovation' are cheap and they dont care about patents(that's another discussion altogether) and they then use them to make so many other things in many variations and that has become their business culture also. NO FORMALITIES. I remember a few years ago I was talking to one chinese Manufacturer for some parts, I could not satisfy their MOQ but after some negotiation they made the sale 'direct' and the price was marginally higher. Try that with any of the German or American companies.Evolution doesn't wipe out the weak only the ones that refuse to change.Again, no offence intended.

author: noobiedoobie
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 13, 2021, 06:09:31 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on March 13, 2021, 05:58:49 pmThat is one way but in most countries investment is not tax deductible as it is capital expense, only revenue expenses are tax dedcutible.Large companies can game the system as its hard to assess which is revenue and which is capital in their case

author: noobiedoobie
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 13, 2021, 06:10:26 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on March 13, 2021, 05:51:58 pmI know! Like its some sensitive military tech.

author: iainwhite
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 13, 2021, 06:30:23 pm
content: Quote from: noobiedoobie on March 13, 2021, 06:10:26 pmMost likely due to EU consumer protection laws, which do not apply to purchases by businesses.I am guessing that Keysight has decided that providing things like a mandatory 14 day return period just makes it not worth selling to consumers.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 13, 2021, 06:35:04 pm
content: Quote from: noobiedoobie on March 13, 2021, 06:06:21 pmFrom where I stand I see a quite different picture.Quote from: noobiedoobie on March 13, 2021, 06:06:21 pmOf course we do.....timely support in the local language and time zone. Spare/accessories if required.Additionally territorial marketing agreements have been signed....inquiry to manufacturer results in notification to regional distributor to follow up on a likely sale and this is a process that works.Quote from: noobiedoobie on March 13, 2021, 06:06:21 pmNo, only at your peril.Old companies maybe as they have long forgotten their roots and prefer to focus on $ instruments where the markup is higher.....1 sale profit = 10x profit of a cheap instrument for much less work.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 13, 2021, 06:39:21 pm
content: Quote from: iainwhite on March 13, 2021, 06:30:23 pmI doubt that. EU consumer protection laws apply to the 'contract' between a consumer and the supplier / distributor. Not the manufacturer. Besides that, as a business user I can order test equipment from Farnell and return it -no questions asked- within two weeks (or even longer; forgot the precise time period). On top of that Farnell's pricing on test equipment is pretty good.

author: noobiedoobie
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 13, 2021, 07:10:52 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on March 13, 2021, 06:35:04 pmTrust me I know how the process works.Local language support, Spares etc Again none of which the company cannot do by itself directly on a platform like Amazon.' Territorial Marketing agreements' - Thanks for proving my point! Its just another way of creating 'territorial monopolies' where none should exist. These agreements are great for cement and fuel business not the tech business.Quote from: tautech on March 13, 2021, 06:35:04 pmThats solely due to the virtue of demand for the 'product' the distributor is irrelevant. So now when the margin is 10x some other cheap product dont you it makes more sense for the company to sell it directly? Lets say they reduce the price and keep only 25% of the distributor's margin for doing the little extra work of direct selling with that they can still cover direct servicing of warranty and support staff and still keeping their original margin intactLook long story short - This whole traditional distribution chain was useful in an age where landline telephones where the fastest mode of communication. Today they are just inefficiencies.

author: noobiedoobie
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 13, 2021, 07:13:29 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on March 13, 2021, 06:39:21 pmOh nice! I haven't checked Farnell Till now I have found Batronix to be the most competitive for the products they sell

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 13, 2021, 07:20:24 pm
content: Quote from: noobiedoobie on March 13, 2021, 07:10:52 pmMaybe you missed this or didn't comprehend it ?From where I stand I see a quite different picture.Why would I invest $ in holding any company's physical stock without some degree of protection ?

author: noobiedoobie
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 13, 2021, 07:27:18 pm
content: No I got it, and I completely agree. It your bread and butter so you would only take up their business if you are protected. Thats fair enough.But look at how flawed this model and what the casualty is. Inflated prices, no competition and also not all distributors are the same so quality of service is also suspect.It defeats the very purpose it was supposed to fulfill.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 13, 2021, 07:38:22 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on March 13, 2021, 07:20:24 pmIn the end that doesn't serve the manufacturer. Not all distributors are worth doing business with. I have come across my fair share of distributors which are just a bunch of lunatics (not just test equipment but other sorts of items as well). Also competition keeps the market healthy.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 13, 2021, 09:18:20 pm
content: Quote from: noobiedoobie on March 13, 2021, 07:27:18 pmJudged by who's metric ?Why would you imagine any manufacturer can offer worldwide salesandtimely support from a single base ?Anyways you're not seeing the full picture as some manufacturer's appointed resellers aren't bound by territorial agreements like some in USA and EU.If it's all about lowest purchase cost there are often other options however the buyer need balance this against any need for local warranty or technical support.Everyone wants a free lunch.............

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 13, 2021, 09:29:24 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on March 13, 2021, 09:18:20 pmIt is not just that. Try to buy something from Lecroy in the Netherlands for example from the official distributor. If you ask for a good deal, they offer you equipment from Rigol. FFS!

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 13, 2021, 09:38:41 pm
content: And you sent that reply to LeCroy ?

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 13, 2021, 10:44:01 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on March 13, 2021, 09:38:41 pmDon't remember. It is a long time ago. Maybe I tried to contact the UK and German distributors but I don't recall them ever getting back to me or they might have referred back to the (useless) Dutch distributor. In the end I just gave up and moved on to a brand with a more responsive distributor / reseller.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 13, 2021, 11:32:18 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on March 13, 2021, 09:18:20 pmI agree the model is not free of problems, but this is one of the good reasons why local distribution exists.In my experience, dealing with local regulations and laws across the world is a very thorough process that will cost someone's time.Regarding technical support: depending on the product itself, technical and design support are costly for the manufacturer and the distribution/rep network can help filter out the important questions and customers that will get most of the engineering time. This becomes particularly important in case the customer is strategic for the region, not worldwide.The manufacturers could potentially try to leverage the various fora on the internet and I agree this is still a bit hit or miss (mostly miss), but the effectiveness and traceability in revenue is very difficult to track.Anyways, good discussion.

author: Analog4
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 14, 2021, 12:05:24 am
content: Capitalism:https://www.investopedia.com/terms/c/capitalism.aspThe price depends on what people are willing to pay. Often the profitable products help pay for the unprofitable products.When the company or distributor are Not profitable enough to sustain the business, they disappear or get swallowed by a larger entity.Obviously, Mouser, Digikey & Newark seem to have a sustainable business model.There are other ways to operate, such asSocialist Market Economy:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialist_market_economy

author: noobiedoobie
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 14, 2021, 05:35:24 am
content: Quote from: tautech on March 13, 2021, 09:18:20 pmThere is no metric thats why the support from distributors is so terrible.I didn't say they have to have a single base, they can also open a few small branches for a large country for service and support only or they can always outsource it and it works out to be lot cheaper atleast the support part.Anyway, there are two kinds of customers for test gear - the hobbyist/freelancer/independent researcher and then the institutional buyer.The first kind, distributors treat them like shit anyways and they are the voiceless who just just have to shell out money and pretend to like it. The second kind rarely need technical support and even if they do they will such questions that is beyond any distributors competence to answer so it will finally be routed to the technical person at the company.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 14, 2021, 06:02:34 am
content: Quote from: noobiedoobie on March 14, 2021, 05:35:24 amReally you have little idea of my industry do you.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 14, 2021, 07:11:34 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on March 13, 2021, 05:59:01 pmThere's no reason to. They already "improved" the 87-III and ruined it by making the 87V default to AC every single time for all of the current measurements, completely obnoxious, I had one briefly and went back to the III. If people are still buying it though why change? There are lots of other companies that sell more cutting edge stuff. Fluke sells what their customers buy.

author: Sigurd
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 14, 2021, 07:30:11 am
content: I used to think a bit like OP, but now I realise that Test Equipment is a crappy business to be in and the only customers that matter in the vast majority of countries are educational and government buyers. Hobbyists are a rounding error and take up too much time with begging and questions. All the while your investors/beancounters are looking at the returns software companies make.The big TE companies spend a very large amount of money and effort on research and then the Chinese companies come and eat their lunch, especially at the low end. If you are in Europe, it's your own laws that are the fault most of the time - what a nightmare selling any electronics in that market(s).I don't understand the distributor hate at all, yeah they charge a markup - as they do in every industry. TE is a forgotten backroom for the Mousers and Digikeys of the world, a favour of convenience to customers.

author: Analog4
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 14, 2021, 08:16:11 am
content: Quote from: Sigurd on March 14, 2021, 07:30:11 amYes, same happens in semiconductors. First with Japan, then Taiwan, Korea, Malaysia, Philippines, Vietnam & China. The manufacturing gets off-shored to the cheapest labor. Eventually manufacturing gets optimized and as capacity increases remote competitors get created in those cheap locations (with low R&D costs). In some of those countries, intellectual property is not considered as sacred is in the USA. As some of those countries are successful, local economy improves labor cost go up and the competition becomes more balanced.Test & Measurement is a very weak market for large semiconductor suppliers also. The volume is too low & many of the T/E special products don’t have big volume elsewhere, such as the military. State of the art ADCs get expensive due to low volume, special packages and expensive testing. If the T/E volumes were several orders of magnitude higher, the prices would come down. A lot of large semiconductor manufacturer management is not impressed with the T/E market sales dollars, so the per unit cost is made high.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 14, 2021, 08:25:01 am
content: Quote from: noobiedoobie on March 13, 2021, 05:01:31 pmAmazon do not sell test gear, those amazon stores belong to either dealers or the manufacturers directly.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 14, 2021, 01:12:24 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on March 14, 2021, 08:25:01 amWell, to be perfectly accurate, they have their Amazon Commercial line of DMMs, but it stops there.

author: noobiedoobie
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 14, 2021, 03:19:54 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on March 14, 2021, 08:25:01 amNo they do, atleast in the US. They are a authorised distributor for Siglent.Please see attached pics, see the seller. Also there are other distributors who quote a higher price (as expected)Edit: Turns out Amazon in an authorised distributor.

author: joeB
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 14, 2021, 03:36:51 pm
content: I'm in the process of upgrading some of my older TE and noticed the Siglent equipment being sold by Amazon. However, I do not see them listed as an authorized distributor on the Siglentna web site. How did you determine they are an authorized distributor ?

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 14, 2021, 03:50:34 pm
content: Quote from: noobiedoobie on March 14, 2021, 03:19:54 pmDon't be fooled by the name and the shiny "online" store on Amazon. As joeB mentioned, if it is not listed in their list below, it is not an authorized disty:https://siglentna.com/how-to-buy/I've seen this happen with other brands as well on Amazon and apparently they don't scrutinize this.

author: noobiedoobie
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 14, 2021, 04:31:30 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on March 14, 2021, 06:02:34 amSo you wish

author: Michael YYZ
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 14, 2021, 04:32:15 pm
content: And what country would that be, if I may ask please?I bought components from Digi-Key and looked them up on Mouser and, at least inmy country, they are comparable or even cheaper to those from the local distributor(s).Quote from: noobiedoobie on March 13, 2021, 05:01:31 pm

author: noobiedoobie
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 14, 2021, 04:35:28 pm
content: Till now I have found only Batronix to be less than or equal to the local distributors. Most often its lesser.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 14, 2021, 04:36:47 pm
content: Quote from: noobiedoobie on March 14, 2021, 03:19:54 pmJust to point out that you will only find out if they’re an authorised resellers or not when the item breaks and you try and make a warranty claim.I know a couple of people who have been told to sod off in that circumstance when Amazon tells them to talk to the manufacturer.

author: noobiedoobie
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 14, 2021, 04:46:39 pm
content: True. I have edited my answer

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 14, 2021, 05:00:06 pm
content: Quote from: rsjsouza on March 14, 2021, 03:50:34 pmWho cares. As long as the service doesn't suck. There are lots of distributors which aren't listed as resellers. Amazon is likely easier to deal with in terms of returns compared to a one-man-band moving some boxes around.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 14, 2021, 05:39:11 pm
content: Quote from: Michael YYZ on March 14, 2021, 04:32:15 pmAround here I have to pay 15 Eurosminimumshipping. I have to buy 100 Euros of anything to make it worth buying from them.(which I almost never do...)

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 14, 2021, 05:56:52 pm
content: Quote from: Analog4 on March 14, 2021, 12:05:24 amUSA customers of the Fluke 87V get TL75 leads in the box.European customers get nice TL175s.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 14, 2021, 06:08:16 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on March 14, 2021, 05:00:06 pmThey are really not, Nico. Sure, the immediate return/cancellation due to a defective unit is probably beautifully handled by Amazon but, as bd139 mentioned, if you need assistance during the warranty period Amazon will tell you to contact the manufacturer and you will be shafted.

author: Michael YYZ
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 14, 2021, 06:26:08 pm
content: CA $8 for purchase total less than $100. Buy local if you think the shipping cost is a deal breaker for you.Quote from: Fungus on March 14, 2021, 05:39:11 pm

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 14, 2021, 06:41:58 pm
content: Quote from: rsjsouza on March 14, 2021, 06:08:16 pmIn the US probably but not in the EU! Apple and Dell got some hefty fines for poor warranty practises (hundreds of millions IIRC). The Dutch version of Amazon's website clearly states a 2 year warranty period.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 14, 2021, 06:56:46 pm
content: Quote from: joeB on March 14, 2021, 03:36:51 pmOnly by the name of the Amazon store.Dave is quite correct on this one, Siglent NA do indeed have an Amazon store that was opened a few years ago by the now retired GM.Right before your post this screenshot shows the official Siglent NA Amazon store:

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 14, 2021, 06:58:24 pm
content: It says 'shipped by Amazon' and 'sold by Amazon'. If it is shipped/sold by a third party then the Amazon listing will show that.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 14, 2021, 07:00:06 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on March 14, 2021, 06:41:58 pm2 years is the law in the EU, the question is who gets to deal with it.Usually it's the manufacturer, not the place you bought it, eg. If I buy a toaster in a large retail store then I don't send it back to the store if it breaks, I contact the manufacturer and they deal with it.eg. I've done this with a Benq monitor in Spain - I call Benq and they send a guy to my house with a replacement. He picks up the old one and takes it away.With Amazon it's not so clear. If it's a major appliance manufacturer then you're probably OK. If it's a Chinese oscilloscope you're completely screwed. If it's a Siglent Oscilloscope, who knows? Will Siglent EU cover me here in Spain if I didn't buy from them?

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 14, 2021, 07:25:41 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on March 14, 2021, 07:00:06 pmDoesn't matter. Your contract is with Amazon (or any other seller) and they have to make sure the warranty is carried out correctly. It is fine if they outsource that to a third party but as a seller they are still responsible.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 14, 2021, 07:31:47 pm
content: There's the law and there's the completely separate concept of getting people to comply with it...

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 14, 2021, 07:46:51 pm
content: Quote from: Sigurd on March 14, 2021, 07:30:11 amWell yes, you have correctly identified just 2 market sectors however there are several more and each with subcategory's.Each should be a valued category and each can require an entirely different investment of time to fully satisfy the buyers inquiry at a level that you just can't get in any shop...yes the occasional sale takes only the time to complete the paperwork and others total an hour of emails to demonstrate an instrument can indeed meet the buyers requirements.The good (fast simple sale) is also balanced with the bad (protracted drawn out sale) yet sellers that lose sight of buyer satisfaction shouldn't be in this game as it's not like selling groceries that ppls must buy to stay alive.Quote from: Sigurd on March 14, 2021, 07:30:11 amRunning a business costs and it must be funded. Over the last year shipping costs have jumped dramatically and coupled with component supply chain issues and the lack of shipping containers has created the perfect shitstorm yet it's only those with their heads in the sand that didn't see this coming 12 months ago.Forecast to improve Q3 and I can't wait.

author: TheUnnamedNewbie
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 14, 2021, 07:49:16 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on March 14, 2021, 07:00:06 pmThere is actually no question at all in the EU who gets to deal with the warranty - it is always the trader (source:https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/consumers/shopping/guarantees-returns/faq/index_en.htm)This is also why you can refuse when a trader tries to tell you to reach out to the manufacturer. It is their responsibility to fix the problem, not yours, if it requires reaching out to the manufacturer they should do that for you. Sometimes it can be interesting to reach out to the manufacturer, esp if they have a warranty program that goes beyond the warranty provided by a seller (EG, friend's of mine have had Dell come to their house to replace a hard disk there so they could work the next day - without even being a commercial service contract entity).Now as to the OP's initial ramble: I've learned over time that often things that seem ineficient to me might be so for a very good reason. More often then not I learn over time that my thoughts on how it ought to be aren't the great after all.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 14, 2021, 07:50:08 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on March 14, 2021, 07:31:47 pmThat is where the legal assistance insurance comes in...Bad reviews also go a long way if they start to accumulate.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 14, 2021, 07:53:25 pm
content: Or just buy it from a distributor who will support it and save yourself a shit show....

author: noobiedoobie
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 14, 2021, 07:54:13 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on March 14, 2021, 06:56:46 pmNow do you see what I was saying? That is the way to go... online and free and open marketBtw it was me who pointed it out not Dave.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 14, 2021, 08:01:42 pm
content: Quote from: noobiedoobie on March 14, 2021, 07:54:13 pmAnd treading on the toes of their already assigned distributors and resellers.At least Siglent NA has the salaried staff to deal with the support required when they chose to use this selling platform.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 14, 2021, 08:18:32 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on March 14, 2021, 07:53:25 pmThat is a great idea. I've lost over 2k euro that way!Buying from a so called authorised distributor is in no way a guarantee you get support or customer service!The only thing the words 'authorised distributor' say is absolutely nothing.In the end the only right answer is to research which sellers care about their customers and which don't. Sometimes that can be a big company and sometimes a one-man-band. You can't tell without doing research.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 14, 2021, 08:22:29 pm
content: Ok clarification: buy it from a distributor that isn't shitOr go to Keysight and pay.Edit: If you're running a business it's generally best to pick something with a crazy NBD warranty or something you can replace instantly because at the end of the day you're going to be without it until whatever warranty process happens. Now I'm no longer on the EE side of things but I have 2-3 of everything I need at hand ready to roll should fate smite me. Because that's cheaper than actually losing the money for the day.Better to have two cheap scopes that scrape the job by than one really good one that disappears for a month if it goes wrong.The key thing most small time orgs (and one man outfits) have absolutely no idea about is risk mitigation...

author: noobiedoobie
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 14, 2021, 08:38:15 pm
content: Quote from: TheUnnamedNewbie on March 14, 2021, 07:49:16 pmThat is the thing about people. People don't how things must be until they are shown it in reality. That is how disruption is. Could you have thought you could buy groceries to electronics online? Today it is a reality. Imagine yourself 30 years ago, had online shopping been pitched to you, you would have found 100 reasons why it should remain the way it is - customers can't check what they are buying, quality, blah blahToday TE is the way it is because of a vicious circle: The cost is high so the demand is small; the demand is small because the cost is high and a good reason(not the only reason) why the cost is because someone wants a massive cut for selling.Also I see a lot of points about hobbyists begging and asking too many questions - to justify the need for distributors. Did anybody wonder why that is happenning? Because all the colleges they studied in opted to use analog scopes just enough to finish the course syllabus because DSOs are so darn expensive and if some kid blows a channel then oh boy! and so not many even saw a DSO. No wonder they ask questions. Now cocky manufacturers like Tek and R&S have realised this and have released educational versions. Reminds me of the Cigarette industry way back whose marketing strategy was "Catch them young". R&S asks for verification that you really are a student.Schmuks.The closest thing I can relate this to are cars. Cars have dealerships for the same reason service, support spares and other BS. Look at what Tesla is doing, they sell direct - Now was that so difficult? NOThat's why I said so about dealerships. They are a relic of a bygone era when post and landline telephones where the best means to communicate.Today it isnt. TE companies would sell a lot more equipment if they reduce the price. Educational institutions to enthusiasts to industry. This seems like a like a chicken or egg problem but it isn't. Companies have to swallow their ego and bid adieu to distributors and focus on selling direct.I started this post with a very faint hope that Dave would mention this and lot many other who run youtube channels on electronics can talk about this too and somewhere few years down the line companies atleast consider releasing online only models if not openly opt for direct selling. I know this sounds like day dreaming but something must be done.I just love what the Chinese are doing. I was thinking of writing a post in the general chat section on all the models they copied and how the world is a remarkably better place today because of it. Don't get me wrong but I don't agree the way that country behaves politically.Man is a tool-making and tool-using animal. He just needs tools to make more tools!

author: noobiedoobie
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 14, 2021, 08:45:04 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on March 14, 2021, 08:18:32 pmExactly! People are thinking distributors are some kind of knights who will swoop in and serve your cause when you are in trouble. They don't know how they only end up adding fuel to the fire. This is true with any company's distributor. Ofcourse there might be one good distributor in a country. But thats been the general experience so far both as an individual and working for a large company. The distributor only has an incentive to make a sale but very little if any to service. So they are all great when they want you to buy(some not even here) but if your gear goes for hike then you almost always lose sleep.

author: noobiedoobie
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 14, 2021, 09:02:45 pm
content: By the way here are the numbers people:(I took pain to dig into these figures)Revenues of TE Companies:Agilent: $5.5 BillionRohde and Schwarz: $2.8 BillionKeysight: $4.2 BillionTektronix: ~$1 BillionThose are company revenues. Worst case the distributors get 10% margins so thats $500mn, $400mn and $100mn for each respectively, which the company is technically giving away. Keysight spent $289 paying all their employees globally last year. Tell me $400 million, the money they give away to distributors is not enough to feed a sales and support staff if they have to sell direct. That too this assuming a meager 10% margin given away.Dave could you please make this point anywhere you get a chance?Edit: Corrected the revenue figures

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 14, 2021, 09:05:38 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on March 14, 2021, 08:22:29 pmThat is an entirely different subject. You can always choose between having redundant equipment or having an SLA in place. Neither have anything to do with selling equipment. A company offering SLAs better lives up to their contracts or they go broke from the penalties they have to pay.OTOH having redundant equipment can be cheaper. It greatly depends on whether you are talking about a 10 euro pair of pliers or a 50 million euro printing press.@noobiedoobie: 10% margin is way to low. Count on at least 30% but 50% to 60% is more likely if a distributor moves a decent volume and does some heavy lifting to give support.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 14, 2021, 09:16:47 pm
content: Let's look at: 'the whole game'.Without doubt electricity and electronics have given mankind their greatest advances for more than a century and will continue to for the foreseeable future.To advance we need test equipment and where once there was only a handful of TE manufacturers this is no longer the case. Dozens and dozens now exist so we are more spoilt for choice than ever before with capability beyond belief and at prices that weren't even dreamed of just a decade ago.These amazing times have grown the TE marketplace where even hobbyists can enter with new equipment for insignificant amounts compared to yesteryear and have an amazing lab to develop products or just developing their understanding of electronics.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 14, 2021, 09:18:30 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on March 14, 2021, 09:05:38 pmYep.Quote

author: tunk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 14, 2021, 09:24:37 pm
content: QuoteDidn't Agilent leave the TE market when they spun off Keysight in 2014?

author: noobiedoobie
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 14, 2021, 09:31:20 pm
content: Yes, they are now into instrumentation in chemical and life sciences. Answer edited

author: noobiedoobie
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2021, 03:08:41 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on March 14, 2021, 09:05:38 pmOh my holy FET! 50% to 60% that is ridiculous. I can't sleep now. What heavy lifting? TE is bought on very objective pros and cons whats the distributor have to do with it. 50% for making a few calls and possibly giving a demo of a product they themselves dont understand.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2021, 03:46:43 pm
content: Quote from: noobiedoobie on March 15, 2021, 03:08:41 pmManyindustries have a strong distinction between wholesale and retail, because the business and skillsets required are different.I suggest that you would learn a lot by researching and understandingwhythat is the case in many industries.

author: noobiedoobie
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2021, 04:17:37 pm
content: Its a myth that being a distributor of a TE company needs skillset. Have you spoken to those guys? They read stuff off the brochure/datasheets if you ask them questions. If your doubts are little too technical for their competence they divert it to the technician at the company.I understand the distribution hierarchy in other industries like automobiles, construction materials etc. and the retailers have thicker margins than distributors. I have done my research and for goods like TE I am of the firm opinion that the distributor is a needles appendage.There was a siglent distributor who was trying to justify need for distributors. His reasons - Local language support, service and support. None of which are convincing.

author: Bassman59
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2021, 04:56:33 pm
content: Quote from: noobiedoobie on March 14, 2021, 08:38:15 pmHere in the US, every state has laws requiring that cars be sold through franchised dealers, not directly from the manufacturer. These laws exist because car dealers are wealthy and can afford to donate to political campaigns. Every time there are pushes to eliminate those laws, the dealers dump money into campaigns and they make dire predictions: "Car dealerships are major local employers! If you eliminate us, all of those jobs are lost!" That's self-serving bullshit, of course. Theownersof the dealerships lose, and that's all they care about.Of course, back in that bygone era, franchised dealers might have made sense, but now they're just in the way. There is no reason for a car dealer as such to exist. I want to buy my next car from Costco. I am not kidding. The manufacturers can set up company-owned repair/maintenance shops and also offer franchise options for independent shops (basically the shops can pay for a nice plaque and direct access to the factory for parts and documentation).QuoteReducing the price? Are you in a business that manufactures specialist equipment? Do you know the margins and the overhead? Doubtful.(Aside: this forum always baffles me. It claims to have a large audience of professional engineers -- that is, people whose work results in products sold. So these professionals understand things like "overhead" and "BOM cost" and what it takes to run a business, and all of that goes into their products' selling prices. Yet there are people on this forum saying "they need to reduce the price" (or worse, ask for hacks and workarounds for software licenses). And right away this is what tells me whether someone is a professional or a pretender/hobbyist. Yes, we all want products to cost less. But we also want the best performance out of those products,andwe want the supplier to remain in business to support the product. So pick two.)Selling through distributors is a separate issue. At least here in the US, they're already doing that. Right now in another browser tab I have the Keysight oscilloscope page open. I clicked on "BUY NOW" and it's in my cart and if I give them my credit card number they'll happily send me a nice 'scope. Tektronix is the same. Fluke, too.I bought a Rigol power supply through distribution (Saelig) since Rigol does not sell direct. That's likely because they're not big enough to do their own worldwide distribution.QuoteSo which toolmakers deserve to make a living from their work, and which do not? This is the question you are asking.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2021, 05:06:31 pm
content: Quote from: noobiedoobie on March 15, 2021, 03:08:41 pmWell, they'll need a building, inventory, insurance, accounting, equipment to loan for demos, people to deal with logistics, customers, etc. A manufacturer could do this by themselves but they'd add the overhead of maintaining a distribution network (which is not their core business) AND still have all the costs involved with distribution. A direct sales channel would be great but it will also involve answering lots of questions. Look at how many basic questions are asked about test equipment on this forum. Distributors probably get these questions all day long.Clothes are even worse... At least 70% margin and more likely 90%. Even with a 70% discount shops still make a profit. The founder of Zara (a chain of clothes stores) is richer than Bill Gates.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2021, 05:50:33 pm
content: Quote from: noobiedoobie on March 13, 2021, 07:10:52 pmThe manufacturers wants to put their efforts where it produces the most revenue. That's manufacturing, not hand-holding hobbyists. Leave the nonsense to the distribution channels. Leave some percentage for the distributors in the MSRP and call it a day.Businesses are not charities! They make a product that fits a niche and tend to sell it for as much as they can get away with. The market tells them when they are overpriced and underpriced. The market is pretty smart that way!As a stockholder living on a fixed income, I expect those companies whose stock I own to make a profit. A lot of profit. If they don't, I'm going to dump my stock. Not just me but millions of other investors. I'm not a charity either! The stock market is pretty efficient too!Besides, the distributors do the stocking. The manufacturer makes a batch, sends them to various distributors and they're out of the loop. Maybe the odd warranty claim but that's a separate department.Just because Amazon lists a product and maybe even ships the product doesn't mean they sell the product. Look at the ever-popular DS1054Z at Amazon. Sure, they warehouse it (maybe) and ship it but it is sold by TEquipment.https://www.amazon.com/Rigol-DS1054Z-Digital-Oscilloscopes-Bandwidth/dp/B012938E76Same story for Dave's version of the BM786. His inventory is sitting in Amazon's warehouse. Amazon will ship it but it's sold by EEVbloghttps://www.amazon.com/EEVblog-BM235-Brymen-Multimeter/dp/B01JZ1ADCO

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2021, 05:58:12 pm
content: It's the local distributor that is going to come to your company and put on a show. It is unlikely that the manufacturer will have an employee in every market segment. No big equipment purchase is going to happen without a show-and-tell.Now, true, many manufacturers have a direct presence in Silicon Valley but that's a different dynamic.

author: noobiedoobie
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2021, 06:08:09 pm
content: Quote from: Bassman59 on March 15, 2021, 04:56:33 pmI am sorry you misunderstood or I didnt articulate that sentence properly. I didn't mean reduce prices of TE overall, please read it in context. I meant if you eliminate the distributor and and then reduce the price; atleast pass on some price benefit to the customer by selling direct... I even gave data on revenue and distributor margins.Also, you can have it all and that can happen when businesses continuously eliminate inefficiencies and go for disruption, not by being complacent.Also, this concern about hobbyists raising silly questions comes up again and again. I have considered this. The whole thing for questions and answers can be outsourced, companies can create forums, communities etc. there are 'n' number of ways to do it and cheaper and companies have done it like Mathworks, although software, it gets more questions. Also as I said earlier, these hobbyists asking questions come from sheer unfamiliarity with test equipment and which is again due to their expensive nature that universities/colleges etc used to buy analog stuff.Also words about distributors 'stocking' product. Haven't any of you faced issues with lead times? Have distributors shipped the product you wanted in 48 hrs?Quote from: Bassman59 on March 15, 2021, 04:56:33 pmI didn't raise that question at all. Again it seems you are skimming through and probably didn't get the context. Read my first post on this thread. My concern throughout has been the 'tools of innovation' being expensive and not that companies are making crazy money and they have to be stopped. I know R&D is expensive. I am equally concerned about success of business involved in niche stuff but I am also concerned that while those companies have been mastering their niche they have given little thought to other things like sales

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2021, 06:14:04 pm
content: Quote from: Bassman59 on March 15, 2021, 04:56:33 pmIt is often overlooked some larger buyers will only deal with local sellers in case support is required.Down here in NZ none of the manufacturers have a physical presence other than their privately owned distributors.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2021, 06:21:45 pm
content: Quote from: rstofer on March 15, 2021, 05:50:33 pmStill the Siglent listing posted earlier is shipped AND sold by Amazon. Amazon seems to be very transparant about that.Quote from: tautech on March 15, 2021, 06:14:04 pmThat is because the only manufacturers of equipment for which it is worth having a local presence are those selling sheep suppliesFor the rest the market in NZ is just too small.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2021, 06:30:41 pm
content: Quote from: noobiedoobie on March 15, 2021, 03:08:41 pmNo. They have staff that goes on site to the end of the world. They have calibration services, that support 10-15-20 year old equipment. They buy back equipment with useful life and try to sell it to other customers. Often times you can buy a 5 year old something with new calibration for 40% the original price. You ask them that you want to measure 120 signals, they provide you with a bunch of equipment with switching, cabling, racks and so on, installed by them. There is enormous amount of work to set up a system like that.It's not just an amazon drop shipping store for screwdrivers.Yes, they dont have prices online, because 99% of the time a business customer (who knows what the hell they are doing) doesn't buy equipment like that. All the Rigols and Siglents understand this, they approach the TE business like selling equipment. Try connecting a Rigol signal generator to a scope to measure bode plot of something. The most basic stuff.If all you need is a store, where you buy some TE that looks good on the bench, buy from them.

author: mansaxel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2021, 10:25:46 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on March 14, 2021, 05:39:11 pmHere, in Sweden, I will get better stock, lower price, free shipping (for orders 50€ and up) from Mouser than from the only equivalent in Sweden, Elfa/Distrelec. From TDM in Poland (so inside EU as far as trade goes even if not in terms of political climate and rule of law) I can get good prices but not free shipping. Mouser has a reason to exist, in my book.

author: wn1fju
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2021, 11:55:34 pm
content: When I wanted to buy TE at my job, our purchasing rules required that I get three quotes. In addition to the normal distributors, I would get one directly from the manufacturer (Agilent, Rohde&Schwarz, Tektronix, etc.). Quite a few times, the quote direct from the manufacturer was cheaper than any of the distributors. Not by a whole lot, usually no more than 5%. It almost seemed randomly implemented.I always thought that quite odd. It seemed like the manufacturers were undermining their own distributors. Some of it might have been because we were usually able to convince the manufacturers that we were a quasi-government agency (we were) and deserved a government-contracted discount. The distributors didn't seem to understand this (or figure out what to do with any paperwork we sent them).Anyway, in such cases, we were forced to buy direct.

author: jonpaul
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2021, 12:19:57 am
content: OP: You are free to shop anywhere:We find the best bargains at Ham Radio Fleas and ebay, but sometime CraigList or ordinary flea markets.I have bought directly from HP decades ago and never had any issues.In general a disty is expected to have local stock, deal with importing, freight, customs etc. as well as facilitate any service or cal.Its the difference between buying a new car from a dealer with a warranty, vs a used one from an individual.Decades ago the disty had catalogs and local reps, but that tijme has passed.Enjoy and good luck,Jon

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2021, 12:27:52 am
content: Quote from: wn1fju on March 15, 2021, 11:55:34 pm2 words: Import costs.For single units in todays CV climate with reduced airfreight available it's a cost that must be passed onto the customer should they want products in a hurry.Sea freight rates have trebled in 1 year and they're just another cost that needs be recovered.Seems like most here can't see 'the whole game'.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2021, 02:43:53 am
content: Of course quasi-government organizations get a discount. It's in the Blanket Purchase Agreement. Buy in volume, you expect a better price!Here's a true story: One company I worked for had manufacturing all the way down to retail. Highly integrated, top to bottom. Except: The retail organization was forbidden from selling to any government organization at any level whatsoever. Why? Because every government contract has a clause that the government will receive the lowest price of any customer. So, some shmuck, somewhere, makes a mistake on an invoice and inadvertently charges a price below the contract price. Now every government organization at every level is entitled to that price and a refund on their purchases back to <forever>. Let the lawsuits roll...One subsidiary had a sign on the wall that said, in effect, you will be fired on the spot if you work on any proposal for a government contract.Selling to the government is not without risk. It has to be handled centrally and very carefully.

author: THDplusN_bad
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2021, 08:43:23 am
content: Quote from: noobiedoobie on March 14, 2021, 09:02:45 pmGood Day,sorry, but this is grossly incorrect and way off reality.R&S's annual revenue was 2.58 Billion € in their FY2019/2020https://www.rohde-schwarz.com/uk/about/overview/company-profile/company-profile_229412.html?change_c=trueCheers,THDPlusN_bad

author: m k
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2021, 09:50:50 am
content: Operating a business is pretty simple.You just need enough income in sufficient time.But even if your stuff is selling like no other it's still the overall income that counts.For example selling 1s from brick and mortar compared to online.People come in and buy few, same with online where p&p is added.One could guess that doubling the price at brick and mortar would be fine, since it's still less than average online with p&p.From the other end.Back in the day it was a known fact that no manufacturer does a profit from hardware service.Now we don't have that kind of service and hardware integration level has skyrocketed.Whole departments are closed and workforce is somewhat hobbying between burger flips.

author: noobiedoobie
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2021, 02:07:32 pm
content: Quote from: THDplusN_bad on March 16, 2021, 08:43:23 amYes sorry it must be $2.83bn I think I made a mistake when converting from euro to dollar

author: TheUnnamedNewbie
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2021, 02:45:16 pm
content: Quote from: rstofer on March 15, 2021, 05:58:12 pmI don't think we have bought anything significant without Keysight, R&S or Anritsu visiting us. Not a distributor, but a person from the company.And maybe this comes from me working in a big group, but buy everything but stuff like supplies direct. Small stuff (for us) we buy from distributors because the hassle of buying direct is not worth us just having it delivered next day.EG: I need one supply? I go to Farnel and order it. We are restocking the lab with new supplies? We send a list of requirements to Keysight, Keithley and R&S and see what they offer and what we end up going for.

author: Tomorokoshi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2021, 03:43:34 pm
content: Where do distributors add value? Not sure.Do distributors save money for manufacturers? Yes. Here's how it works:Even though you can buy things online, the different distributors have territory agreements with the manufacturers. Now, cross-territory sales certainly occur, but implied with territory is that they also support customers within the territory. If a distributor sells outside of territory, they might have some travel liability to deal with.Anyway, let's say a manufacturer sells enough to support an inside sales staff of 10 people for North America. That might cover 10 regions: two in California, one in New York, one for Canada, one for Mexico, and 6 more for everywhere else. The inside sales regions might be roughly equal in yearly sales volume.Now we have to business options: Sell direct, or sell through distribution.Selling through DistributionEach of the 10 inside sales managers works with maybe 3 distributors. Each has a franchised territory. Each has maybe 5 sales and support people. They take care of direct customer issues, whether it's drawing up a quotation, providing training, or making a warranty claim. In effect 3 * 5 * 10 = 150 people are working part-time to support the manufacturer.Now, while this manufacturer has these regional deals, those distributors have deals with other manufacturers. So they might also sell Keysight, Extech, and some automation equipment. They have diversification by carrying multiple manufacturers across different target price points, industries, etc. This allows their staff to be generally busy to ride out business sales cycles.Selling DirectFor same same coverage compared to the distributor model, in addition to the 10 inside sales people the manufacturer has their own group of outside sales and technical support. Instead of the equivalent of 150 part-time people, to balance coverage and cost they might need 50 regional sales and support people. Their sales come and go with business cycles, and they don't have diversification across other manufacturers and industries. Now add to this the macroeconomic problem of duplicating this across all the manufacturers that were represented by the distributors. The overall expense is higher, and they will likely face higher overhead and turnover.They takeaway is that a manufacturer pays the distributor on commission only when a sale is made. If a manufacturer has their own staff, they have to pay all the time, not to mention paying for all the buildings.

author: ElektroHS
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2021, 05:08:12 pm
content: the end-cost of a product will be higher for end-user in many cases... based on stages that should be completed.the main problem - sometimes a product is "duplicated"... and it's importantly to support original manufacturer who did R&D of this product... but don't support "duplicators"In order to create good product - manufacturer should spend much time for R&D... as a result it's costly... so final product will need to cover all aspects for "product life"

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 18, 2021, 04:07:40 am
content: Quote from: noobiedoobie on March 13, 2021, 05:46:58 pmThey're ALL region specific.