Deadly insane design (CIF FT 02 reflow oven) Teardown - rant - safety fix - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 23, 2013, 11:32:50 pm
content: Yesterday I received CIF FT 02 reflow oven, made in France.As Dave says, I took it apart even before switching onSeems that controller was designed by team of trained monkeys (or maybe just monkeys). Using quality parts, they built utterly dangerous device. Not like Chinese who do it to make chap crap but just because of insane stupidity. Frankly saying it is a first time I see something like that. I say right away thatDANGEROUSdesign flaws start from the middle of the post, first half is just teardown photos with small description. There are links to the high res version below each image so you can see in detail what's going on.Oven with top cover opened.Top cover with quartz heat lamps.Control block.PSU made by Artesyn, model NAL40-7612Controller PCB.Microcontroller: MC68HC908GP32CPEEPROM 24C08DS1307 RTCDG409 analog multiplexerAD595-AQ thermocouple amplifier in ceramic packageTLC1549 10 bit ADCULN2003ASSR: Crydom PF240D25 - drives 2 kW of load.JQ1a-12V-F Panasonic relayTwo MAX232 and DB9 connectors are not mounted, should be used in bigger model which has com port.LCD is 16x2 but very big.Controller, bottom side.They screwed with crimp connectors, changed all of them. They are Molex BTW. They used those meant for thinner wire.Have not right connector? Let's cut what we haveHere is starting the most interestingSee bright squares around the pads, that is creepage distance between mains and GND.Creepage might be ok on bottom side if there wasn't thatcircle. Why it is there? My guess as yours. To fix this madness and better show whats going on, I removed SSR, relay and connector.But this is just insane. Who in sound mind would fill ground around pads directly connected to the mains. Creepage is only about 0.3 mmAs ground is filled all across the high voltage traces I decided to just move all mains connected parts out of the board.Safety fix almost completed, need to tie the wires. Drilled 3 holes, mounted solid state relay and terminal block. Then rewired whole thing.

author: mcinque
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 23, 2013, 11:38:38 pm
content: 0.3 between live and gnd

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 23, 2013, 11:39:38 pm
content: I suspect that WTF thin track is because they didn't know how to tell their PCB software to increase backoff on the copper pour.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2013, 12:09:32 am
content: I doubt this "CIF" is made in France.I saw a CIF at my work place opened up and it was basically an Aoyue. Similar parts to my Aoyue 968 (pump, PCB, etc.), but the RRP was over four times as much at around £650.00.I think all they do is buy products from China, make some minor change so they can stick "made in France" on it (probably adding an instruction manual or undoing a screw) and then sell them for exorbitant prices.This might not be true for all CIF gear, but it was true for the 968 rebadge I saw.

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2013, 12:11:36 am
content: 0.3mm creepage makes baby Jesus cry.Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on November 23, 2013, 11:39:38 pmAnd France, I take it, does not have Google.Quote from: tom66 on November 24, 2013, 12:09:32 amThere is French on the PCB.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 24, 2013, 12:16:00 am
content: Quote from: tom66 on November 24, 2013, 12:09:32 amI think it is French written on the controller pcb. This is for sure not cheap chinese. All Japanese capacitors, Crydom SSR. They just made insane electronics from the very good parts.

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2013, 12:20:08 am
content: Quote from: wraper on November 24, 2013, 12:16:00 amStupidlygood parts, I'd suggest. Is it just the photo, or do I see a ceramic DIP from Analog Devices? (Edit: yep, you already listed it, AD595.) Damn, that must have cost as much as everything else on that board together! And why on earth is everything in a socket, are you supposed to program the ULN2003A? Or is that how they say "these came from a Chinese dumpster, you'll probably have to replace them so we made it easy!"

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 24, 2013, 12:34:11 am
content: Quote from: c4757p on November 24, 2013, 12:20:08 amAnd not just cheap sockets but machined sockets.

author: TopLoser
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 24, 2013, 12:35:40 am
content: Quote from: tom66 on November 24, 2013, 12:09:32 amYes this particular item is 'designed' and made in France. CIF do a range of products and most are rebadged - the 852 hot air rework stations for example. But this one is very much French through and through.I look forwards to comments about the UI of this oven next... gulp...

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2013, 12:42:12 am
content: Quote from: c4757p on November 24, 2013, 12:20:08 amThere's a lower parts cost by eliminating sockets I suppose--but mounting chips in sockets is good for diagnostics and repair surely? And of course it reduces the risk of any heat damage to expensive parts if there is a lack of process control in the soldering. The economics of small volume, high value device manufacturing are probably different from low cost consumer boards produced by the million...

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 24, 2013, 12:44:51 am
content: UI is slow and kinda stupid but WTF I'm not going to play games on itBTW Those photos are very high res, were 24 Mpix originally. You can count dust particles on the board if zoom in.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2013, 12:48:17 am
content: The design looks like it came out of the mid 80's. A 68K processor with an external mux for switching the ADC channels (surprised it has an internal ADC TBH), separate EEPROM and DIP-style xtal. You could probably replace 90% of that board with a single micro these days and do it all SMD. Very odd, must be expensive to produce but probably a case of not wanting to re-engineer something which works.

author: TopLoser
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 24, 2013, 12:50:07 am
content: Email sent to CIF with a link to this thread...Votre message a bien été envoyé à notre équipe.Votre message: Maybe your engineers should see this?https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/deadly-insane-design-%28cif-ft-02-reflow-oven%29-teardown-rant-safety-fix/?topicseenNous vous répondrons dès que possible.

author: Rasz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2013, 12:57:42 am
content: Isnt this illegal in EU to sell?They violate IEC 664/664A by a wide margin, is there CE (China Emulate?) on the box?

author: Wann
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2013, 01:00:48 am
content: Quote from: TopLoser on November 24, 2013, 12:50:07 amThankswraperfor finding this stupid dangerous error.I'm gonna tear that control board out of my unit next week

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 24, 2013, 01:22:00 am
content: Quote from: Rasz on November 24, 2013, 12:57:42 amThere is CE mark on the back of the oven.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2013, 01:36:35 am
content: It could be a self certification and so never actually been through any compliance testing. I think you can do that with certain items, but I didn't think it applied to anything wall powered.Wonder how long it has been out for sale.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 24, 2013, 01:45:47 am
content: Quote from: tom66 on November 24, 2013, 01:36:35 amSchematic (block) in the manual is dated 2005. The most recent date on the parts in my unit 12 44. So it might be selling 7-8 years.

author: chickenHeadKnob
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2013, 02:46:22 am
content: Quote from: tom66 on November 24, 2013, 12:48:17 amAn MC68hc908 is an 8/16 bit 6809 family not 68K so even earlier than mid 80's. Late 70's early 80's was about when 6809 design-ins were the most popular. Although this particular processor may have come later. It does have have that look and feel I must admit. The last time I saw a board layout screw-up like this was when an overtaxed and out of his depth engineer from another local company farmed out the board layout to a clueless technician working at my company who happened to be moonlighting to make a little extra cash. One morning the technician shows up in the lunchroom all beaming and proud with a large mixed signal DSP audio processing board and hands it to me. I take one look at it and follow the inputs all the way to the ADC which was on the far side, so the audio signal was being routed through about 300mm high clocked DSP digital goodness. I said this is a noise disaster! He snatched the board from me and walked out in a huff, and he never asked me for my opinion ever again. I learned through the grapevine that board had about 6 bits of usable signal above the noise floor and they scrapped it.I suspect some thing similar happened here. They fobbed off the layout to some non-engineer flunky and since it worked they figured it was OK.

author: fluxcapacitor
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2013, 02:58:00 am
content: This is from page 2 of the manual ,it lists the various eec standards .

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2013, 03:06:29 am
content: Of course with poor mains isolation from ground a fault is mainly likely to cause a blown fuse or tripped breaker and possibly damage the equipment. The risk to human operators is maybe not so great?

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 24, 2013, 03:19:23 am
content: Quote from: fluxcapacitor on November 24, 2013, 02:58:00 amNewer version in my manual.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2013, 04:50:11 am
content: Phillipe will be doing some brick extrusion Monday for sure. Self certified to comply with the standards and then have all the minor flaws about creepage pointed out.As a plus with all IC's being socketed a replacement board with proper clearance will be easy to do, just change the chips over, unsolder the SSR ( likely even more expensive than the rest of the board devices) and solder in the new larger clearance position on the board.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2013, 05:21:48 am
content: ah. judging by the font used on the pcb and the shapes of things : they are using altium.... but using it wrongthat trace around the HV block : they have drawn a trace not connected to any net to block the GND plane to pull back. if you tick on 'remove isolated copper' it will make a nice clearing.They should have set those traces to 'keepout' instead.And then the dolt that made that nice contour only did ti on the bottom layer. it should have been drawn as a multilayer track.sacre bleu !

author: Bored@Work
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2013, 06:08:46 am
content: Quote from: SeanB on November 24, 2013, 04:50:11 amPhillipe will do nothing on Monday if he knows the business. Because one of the issues with the dreaded CE mark and compliance statement is that false statements hardly have any serious consequences, especially no personal consequences for those signing compliance statements. CE violations are in practice not properly prosecuted. If things start to get a bit tough Phillipe will issue a voluntary withdrawal from the market and the authorities will pat him on the back for being such a good boy.

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2013, 06:19:15 am
content: It could be considered bad design, but is this really a safety issue? This is a grounded equipment so if it has been properly grounded any shorts will just divert current into ground and not present a shocking potential to the operator.0.3mm is enough to withstand ~900V in free air between two conductors, let alone one which has been covered in soldermask. So I wouldn't say this is particularly worrying (compared to e.g. certain Chinese mains adapters where a fault can be hazardous.)

author: Towger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2013, 09:12:30 am
content: The French love their electronics, but French electronics come with a French attitude. I wish you luck getting much of a response from them.For instance look at Renault, they pack their cars with electronics as standard, but refuse to believe that very common hardware faults are design faults. They will just sell you expensive replacement modules which last a couple years before failing. Even after years of coil, window regulator, key card, dash display problems they don't learn. One popular model got such a bad name it is no longer sold into UK and Ireland. All for the sake of listening to feedback and fixing a few small problem in otherwise reliable cars.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 24, 2013, 12:57:29 pm
content: Quote from: amyk on November 24, 2013, 06:19:15 amThere in no silkscreen covering the ground plane on the right side of the pads. Any moisture will cause arcing. About safety, not always sockets are properly grounded. In my flat there is no ground at all. I use central heating radiator as the grounding source as it is best I can get.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2013, 01:45:08 pm
content: That little bit of visible copper is a problem. If they had the solder mask continue up to the pad everything would have been OK with a very thin margin. I'd also fix the grounded outlet problem in your flat. Pulling in an extra wire may be less work then you'd expect.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 24, 2013, 02:23:27 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on November 24, 2013, 01:45:08 pmIf there would be a place where to connect it. Whole building should be rewired and I only rent this flat. I "fixed" it in one room, but that is more for the ESD purposes. Actually it should be pretty good ground. But whatever, it is not about my problems but how CIF screwed up.

author: megajocke
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2013, 04:52:10 pm
content: I hope you are only using it to discharge ESD, otherwise faults in your equipment could be very dangerous to people working on the pipes or people in other apartments. The grounding impedance may not be low enough to ensure protective devices (fuses/breakers) cut off power quickly enough.I don't know what is common in Latvia, but here in Sweden you always have usable ground in your fuse box/breaker box even if there are no grounded outlets anywhere. The feed to the fuse box is commonly done with ground and neutral on a shared "PEN" conductor plus one or three phases of 230 V to ground/netural. Newer installations may use a grounding conductor separate from the neutral, but it is quite uncommon. After the fuse box, ground and neutral is always separated.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 24, 2013, 05:24:19 pm
content: This building was built in Soviet times with ensuing consequences. I do understand really well that this is bad thing to do. I have put there resistor in series.As much as I know, real ground is aviable only on the first floor and I live on fifth. Fuse box have only neutral and it can be easily swapped with live if not smart enough electrician will do something there as all wires are the same white color. And even this fuse box is about30m20m away from the door of my apartment.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2013, 05:48:31 pm
content: You mean with the bolt fuses as well?

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 24, 2013, 06:00:36 pm
content: Took a photo.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2013, 06:42:43 pm
content: Almost as bad as Jondolo wiring here, at least you have fuses, and insulation. When you have track lighting from the glow of the bare wires threaded through trees, walls, whatever with earth return you know there is a problem.

author: M. András
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2013, 07:16:41 pm
content: i counted 2 burned wires, and seems like there is a third under a fuseholder, these installation should be replaced by the utility company to prevent electrical fires ffs

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 24, 2013, 07:35:11 pm
content: Those wires are aluminium, don't know if burned wires are actually used but likely are. There are 3 fuse holders for each apartment but for my apartment third is broken but yet I have voltage in all sockets. Frankly I try to not think about wiring as it makes me sad. If I owned apartment then I likely would invest in it. I have an idea, I'll check with my Flir i7 what's going on there.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2013, 07:45:03 pm
content: Public rental housing often had very minimal electrical ( often none or only when what is visibly broken inside the unit is eventually repaired as cheap as possible) maintenance and this is likely to be left until it either fails totally or causes a fire.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 24, 2013, 07:54:08 pm
content: Nothing incredibly hot (max 26 C) but I'm concerned about warm fuse holder and wire from it on the right side as it is mine. And I consume less than 500W right now.

author: Paul Moir
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2013, 08:01:33 pm
content: Quote from: amyk on November 24, 2013, 06:19:15 amYou're not supposed to rely on your safety system in a safe design, your principal design should be inherently safe. It's there for when unlikely things go wrong. A 0.3mm space of air presents a not unlikely current path to the case: you get a small power line spike and now what's the voltage needed to sustain an arc?I am not an EE, but I don't think one would ever intentionally rely on solder mask for safety. It seems like there is too much to go wrong there easily.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2013, 09:35:11 pm
content: Quote from: Paul Moir on November 24, 2013, 08:01:33 pmHow is that any different from a MOV or other surge protector device from hot to ground?

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 25, 2013, 10:57:12 am
content: Those devices are designed to fail open, not short. Class Y rated capacitors too.

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 25, 2013, 12:39:25 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on November 24, 2013, 01:45:47 amAnd, all this time, has anyone managed to find reports of sudden failure, shock, etc. ...? Unless they changed the PCB (or the board house messed up somehow)...But you should definitely fix the grounding in your house. This is a very good example of why grounded equipment should be used with a grounded supply.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 25, 2013, 01:06:45 pm
content: Quote from: amyk on November 25, 2013, 12:39:25 pmDon't know how such situations were handled if they occured. What I know that I have seen about 1 mm gaps shoot through under about 300V voltage. For example between pads of primary electrolytic capacitor in phone chargers. I checked that fuse box actually have in it what supposed to be earth (with white cables again as all of the wiring). But this barely makes wiring job any easier. Nobody will allow me to put earth cable on the wall in the public corridor therefore that means it needs to be mounted in the concrete wall 20m long until it reaches my apartment at all.

author: dfmischler
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 25, 2013, 01:43:11 pm
content: Quote from: chickenHeadKnob on November 24, 2013, 02:46:22 amUm, that processor has the 6805 architecture. So it is far less capable than the 6809.

author: ElectroIrradiator
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 25, 2013, 06:36:32 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on November 24, 2013, 03:19:23 am...andthatis the 'China Exports' symbol, not the CE mark from the EU. 'Amazingly' similar, except for a slight geometric difference. On the genuine CE mark, the circumference of the C just intersects the leftmost point on the E.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 25, 2013, 09:58:36 pm
content: Don't think that this CE mark on HD6950 graphics card is fake. AMD unlikely would fake it. Actually amazingly high product count (from reputable manufacturers) have CE mark applied with wrong gap and gemetry.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 25, 2013, 10:03:26 pm
content: Quote from: ElectroIrradiator on November 25, 2013, 06:36:32 pmffs, will this stupid myth never die?

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 25, 2013, 10:07:17 pm
content: Wrong CE from Tefal. So ugly CE mark means almost nothing itself.

author: Bored@Work
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 25, 2013, 10:53:31 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on November 25, 2013, 10:07:17 pmHow could it? The CE mark as such means nothing, ugly version or not.

author: megajocke
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 25, 2013, 11:01:14 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on November 25, 2013, 01:06:45 pmNice pictures!Looks neat when all wires are the same color, doesn't it?Is this the last fuse box or is there one downstream of it in your apartment too?But aren't the wires pulled inside plastic/metal tubes in the wall? In that case pulling new wires might be possible. Or are they really directly embedded in the concrete?

author: mcinque
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 25, 2013, 11:03:04 pm
content: Unfortunately CE is only a symbol, not an approval mark like FCC, GS and so on: every manufacturer is allowed to self-certificate its own devices and there is no authority that test that devices before allowing to put that symbol.Of course, if a "CE" device with a real declaration of conformity kills someone because of its poor design, the manufacturer will be in serious trouble if someone sues him, but the damage is already done.Besides, european CE regulations strictly forbid CE-Style symbols that can be misunderstood with the original CE symbol, but China Export is doing exactly what they forbid and no one has fined them.As Bored@Work says,the conclusion is that the CE symbol means nothing and therefore wecan notstate that a device is safe only because it have a CE symbol on it (fake or not).

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 25, 2013, 11:06:02 pm
content: Quote from: mcinque on November 25, 2013, 11:03:04 pmThere's no such thing as a 'China Export' mark!

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 25, 2013, 11:13:52 pm
content: Quote from: megajocke on November 25, 2013, 11:01:14 pmIt is the last fuse box. I'm not 100% sure about fuse box -> apartment but in apartment itself all wiring is directly in concrete. So either would need to rip up all the walls or either do spider net across the apartment.

author: fluxcapacitor
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 25, 2013, 11:40:05 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on November 25, 2013, 11:06:02 pmNo ,there isn`t such a thing as a china export mark ,it was just a name given to it.The UK health and safety executive has this to say about the CE mark ,the declaration of conformity :What does a Declaration of Conformity mean?It is a formal declaration by a manufacturer, or the manufacturer's representative, that the product to which it applies meets all relevant requirements of all product safety directives applicable to that product. It is a sign that a product has been designed and constructed for compliance with relevant essential requirements, and has been through the appropriate conformity assessment processes.A Declaration of Conformity is not a quality certificate, nor a guarantee for safety. However, when properly drawn up along with CE marking on the product, conformity of the product with the Directive(s) quoted on the Declaration of Conformity may be presumed by suppliers in the distribution chain and by the end customer, provided there are no obvious or known defects.bla bla bla . What is important is not the ce mark but the directives within it that means it has (or should have) had quality and safety checks according to the particular directives guidelines .Not that any of that matters ,i dont think there will be a recall unless someone is seriously injured or dies .

author: Rasz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2013, 01:16:37 am
content: Quote from: fluxcapacitor on November 25, 2013, 11:40:05 pmYou can sue regardless. I heard of competitors snitching on each other to regulatory body in my country and getting products (PC power supplies in this case) removed from the market.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 28, 2013, 03:29:11 am
content: It may be 'just' a mark, but it's a very specific mark. Check out page 45 of this:Implementation guide

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 28, 2013, 11:26:11 am
content: Quote from: dunkemhigh on November 28, 2013, 03:29:11 amRead posts above.

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 28, 2013, 12:11:33 pm
content: In the first page of Google image results for "CE mark" (anyone else notice they no longer have the direct image link but only to the page containing the image?) the majority of them are the correct one.

author: PA0PBZ
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 28, 2013, 01:48:25 pm
content: Quote from: amyk on November 28, 2013, 12:11:33 pmJust checked, I still have both options: visit the page and view the image.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 28, 2013, 01:58:29 pm
content: Damn, clicked the wrong button after a lengthy postAnyway, instead of anecdotes about the UK H&S try this:https://www.gov.uk/ce-markingQuoteI would suggest that if the Chinese wanted to reproduce a real CE mark they could/would. They don't, because they want it tolooklike one but not actually be one (for pretty obvious reasons I spelt out in the earlier version but can't be arsed to do again).

author: fluxcapacitor
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 28, 2013, 03:02:15 pm
content: Many reputable chinese manufacturers do have the so called correct CE mark as they do know where to get the mark/font from .The smaller players arent going to waste time searching for the correct font sized mark on a foreign (to them) website ,and read through a english/chinese translated document regarding the sizing ,where to put the mark etc .No, theyll knock something up in photoshop or grab any image or free font they find.Regardless whether the logo/font is right or wrong though,any CE marked document is intended as a real document.

author: mamalala
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 28, 2013, 03:26:36 pm
content: Marking with CE is basically just an excercise in finger-pointing. Every manufacturer or importer can declare CE conformity and slap on the sticker. However, when the shit hits the fan, the manufacturer or importer is the one to take the blame (and likely having to pay in case things go really bad). However, if they hire a lab to do the conformance testing, and use the resulting certification to slap on the sticker, they can simply pont the finger at them instead and thus shift the burden onto them.Unlike a TÜV or GS mark, there is no requirement to have some external party do the testing and declaration of conformity. Or to have any testing done at all in the first place. If one thinks the product conforms to the applicable CE requirements, one can slap on the sticker.Greetings,Chris

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 28, 2013, 03:27:44 pm
content: Quote from: fluxcapacitor on November 28, 2013, 03:02:15 pmI would say that nobody cares, big and small players. More than a half of the equipment I have (from the decent manufacturers) have at least wrong distance between the letters.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 28, 2013, 03:37:49 pm
content: Here is a label from the back of the oven. Not as near as ugly as in manual, distance still wrong. But who cares.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 28, 2013, 04:02:53 pm
content: Quote from: mamalala on November 28, 2013, 03:26:36 pmI'm not sure that's the case. In theory, whoever signs the declaration is personally liable for 70 million Euro. Maybe he can sue the testing house in a civil court for damages, but in the eyes of the CE paper shufflers it is the signee that gets dumped on.

author: Bored@Work
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 28, 2013, 05:49:51 pm
content: Quote from: dunkemhigh on November 28, 2013, 01:58:29 pmNo, they don't gain anything by using a similar, but formally wrong mark. As long as it looks sufficiently like the CE mark any judge would decide that the wrong mark is just a clerical error and they effectively declare CE conformity. A grumpy judge would decide that it is by intention, so they are willingly violate the law.Quote from: dunkemhigh on November 28, 2013, 04:02:53 pmI am not sure this is the case, but it doesn't matter. As long as violations are not prosecuted it doesn't matter if 70 Mega Euro or 7 Cent, or if signed by the company CEO or worker 57659 from the OneHungLo factory. And even if it would, people for which it would matter would insist on getting insurance payed for them by the company before signing for the company.

author: fluxcapacitor
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 28, 2013, 05:50:46 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on November 28, 2013, 04:32:34 pmIt is meant as a legitimate document even though the spacing may be wrong.What the document contains is the relevent part here. The document is not null and void and "not worth the paper its written on" so to speak, just because the spacing is wrong .Its the intent of the document thats important.Any company that has not done what their document states ,whether it has a legitimate logo or not ,should be held liable for any consequences.Any an attemp to deceive through fake/misleading documetation should also be held responible and accountable.Getting back on track to the CIF reflow oven ,they have clearly made a manufacturing error.They`ve been informed about it and now its up to them to respond.

author: station240
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 30, 2013, 04:45:33 pm
content: The mains wiring is still dubious, should the cord grommet become loose, and the mains cable get ripped out, the neutral wire would remain connected long after the earth got ripped out. General idea is to make the earth wire the longer of the three, so a ripped out cord means the earth is the last to break. Earth leakage detectors don't trip if the case isn't earthed any more.Easily fixed by terminating the neutral (and active?) into a terminal block. For heavy/industrial equipment the chances of the cord being torn out are a lot higher.

author: Dreso12
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 04, 2013, 09:54:19 am
content: You can autocertify CE your equipment, to do that you must search which directives apply to your product and the norms included in these directives, mostly ENxxxxx's .For this oven the strickt minimum in my opinion they would need is EMC compatibility and Electrical safety. If they want to autocertify they have to carry on the tests (internally or externally) stated in the different norms and keep the records of the tests results. If they autocertify it without testing and have a problem later they will be in quite big problem as they don't have any test records to justify their autocertification.I think their equipment wouldn't pass many of the tests included in these norms and others. There are many norms about clearance in PCB routing and this is clearly not compliant with any of them.

author: haschu87
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: February 13, 2014, 12:28:36 pm
content: Hi,I just bought a FT-02 reflow oven 3 weeks ago and I started to solder my first PCB.The PCB has a dimension of 200x130 mm.I have one problem with the oven.The temperature distirbution doesnt sem to be really good.The area in the middle of the pcb is soldered really fast, but the outer areas need 30 to 40 seconds longer.I attached a picture to explain this.The problem is that within this time some parts in the middle of the pcb get too hot.Do you have similar problems?Do you have an idea what I could do to get a better temperature distribution?Like adding a perforated metal plate a few millimeters over the PCB?

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 13, 2014, 05:15:11 pm
content: I inserted a board with 2 thermocouples on the middle and on the side of the board and made small video. Oven is running a default factory profile with a 230oC peak temperature. In the middle of the board temperature is almost the same as the oven reads itself, however it is much lower on the the side. I didn't use this oven a lot and only with small boards. I think metal screens should be installed to cover centers of the halogen lamps to improve temperature uniformity.

author: electronics man
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2014, 06:00:29 pm
content: This product would not last a minute in the uk it would be reported to trading standerds or it should be

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 17, 2014, 07:21:01 pm
content: Quote from: electronics man on February 17, 2014, 06:00:29 pmSeems that it lasts a long time and sells on Farnell UK and RS. One thing makes me happy. If I enter CIF FT02 in google, this thread is the first search result. At least some damage is done for manufacturing such a device.

author: electronics man
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2014, 09:37:05 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on February 17, 2014, 07:21:01 pmsome body should tell them

author: uwezi
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 18, 2014, 06:44:55 pm
content: Quote from: c4757p on November 24, 2013, 12:11:36 amYes, it is - and it saysthat you are not allowed tomodifythe circuit boardI found this thread today, because I borrowed this exact oven from my colleagues and was desperately looking for a manual, because the machine's user interface is horrible! But finding this thread was even more fun!I then also found the manual:http://se.rs-online.com/web/p/reflow-ovens/5068786/The English manual repeatedly tells you that you should read something on the "defect display" - it appears that there is more defective than just the displayAnd yes, RS still sells this piece ofengineeringin Europe for the sum of about USD 2600.

author: electronics man
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2014, 08:49:26 pm
content: someone should tell RS about this thread to warn them that the product is dangerous

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2014, 05:57:57 am
content: Quote from: electronics man on February 18, 2014, 08:49:26 pmSo why don't you do it?

author: lithsmd
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: March 02, 2014, 02:34:09 pm
content: I come to this forum much as a player, we have one of these FT02 for over a year, no malfunctions to date.We quite satisfied sum compared to our former reflow oven (Netherlands).By reading this post, I contacted CIF last week, they replied that they were sorry for the mistake on the circuit, they offered me to replace my control card by another modified.So I returned them the PCB and expects in return a PCB with insulation changed.by the way, on my oven all the connections was OK.I will notify you upon receipt of the new card.

author: amp741
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: March 23, 2014, 05:04:10 am
content: Hello, a linkhttp://webdelcire.com/wordpress/archives/3732where you can see the temperature time profiles in different points of the oven's tray.

author: mk_
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2015, 01:47:45 pm
content: btw: I received an more or less unused FT02, Manual is signed 15. January 2015(!) and it still includes the crazy pcb.Asking cif@cif.fr what they offer resulted in a quick answer that I should send the pcb to them, they will replace it asap.mk_

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 01, 2015, 12:34:59 am
content: I'm going to design a new controller PCB for this stupid reflow oven which i reviewed and modified a while ago as original (safety fixed) controller just drives me nuts. Lacking of any ramp function is just insane, as on how long it is preheated it depends, will solder paste melt not completely or board gets fried at high temperatures for prolonged time. Two runs one after another are basically impossible too because of this.So it will be basically this :http://andybrown.me.uk/wk/2014/05/11/awreflow/.I'm too lazy to do this from the scratch, so It will be original firmware or slightly modified to account door switch and fan but probably not as there is little need for that. As original PCB is huge and ordering PCB of such size is about $55 for 5 PCBs from Elecrow (I don't want to drill new holes for smaller PCB mounting) and don't wan't to waste this expensive space needlessly, I'll put a triac on the heatsink and a small Meanwell 5V 1A SMPS module on this PCB too. 12V 3A original PSU is just insane, as there is no need nor for 12V, nor 3A.So why I'm writing this? - as much as I know, Toploser sold quiet a few of those here.Will there be anyone interested in this controller? I could sell bare PCB + unobtanium LCD connector for about 12 EUR shipped anywhere (+some parts at their cost if needed). Or sell fully assembled PCBs (guess will be around 45-50 EUR without an LCD) if anyone wants to pay for my effort doing this. So if anyone interested, let me know. I'll might make a design a bit different so less modification is needed to install it. I already don't have original power connector and thing is already rewired so I don't really need to make it compatible with original connector unless someone needs it. Basically only modification needed will be cutting LCD window a bit higher and covering some part of it as this LCD is higher but shorter than original.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 01, 2015, 12:40:55 am
content: If anyone interested in the new controller, please leave a coment it the new topichttps://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/new-controller-for-cif-ft02-reflow-oven/msg641956/#msg641956

author: santiniuk
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2015, 02:15:08 pm
content: Just received an email with PDF from Farnell regarding this oven that we purchased.Interesting how CIF have worded this issue.Quote

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 12, 2015, 02:45:55 pm
content: They give only one month to return since this document created. Like if this is equipment which you can take out of production environment at any moment.Quote1.5 years recent my ass.

author: santiniuk
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2015, 10:37:39 am
content: To be honest the mail came in just as I was about to leave the office.I'll follow up with CIF Monday. I really just want them to post out a replacement controller.

author: mcinque
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 13, 2015, 09:05:42 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on June 12, 2015, 02:45:55 pmtotally agree.

author: mk_
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 17, 2015, 08:18:19 pm
content: Quote from: santiniuk on June 12, 2015, 02:15:08 pmand also intersting how they solved the problem.bottomside is unchanged...well, now 2mm instead of 0,2mm clearanceregards

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 17, 2015, 08:26:07 pm
content: LOLInstead of changing the copper filling they just routed the top layer. If they didn't change the bottom layer, then there is no 2 mm however but only about 0.7 - 0.8 mm because of that stupid trace. And there is still almost no creepage between all of the high voltage traces.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 17, 2015, 08:32:20 pm
content: P.S. Seems that their staff is really brain damaged.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2017, 01:41:49 am
content: Quote from: chickenHeadKnob on November 24, 2013, 02:46:22 amThe MC68HC908 series MCUs have nothing do do with the 6809. They use the HC08 core, an enhanced version of the very popular HC05 MCU core of the early 90s. The MC68HC908 parts were popular into the early 2000s.

author: Pinkus
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 26, 2018, 09:44:10 am
content: Improvement ideas:I threw out the complete electronics soon, as the software which were running on the CIF was pretty crappy too.I also threw out the 2x 1000W halogen lamps and replaced them with 2x 1500W halogen lamps (I am now using two SSR, one for each lamp). It now works MUCH better and the heating follows the profile (Caution: with the existing hardware/software, changing the lamps is not recommended as the reaction time of the software might be too slow).Though I added some kind of reflection shield made of stain less steel (I used an old stencil and cutted out the shades) below the lamps to eliminate most of the direct heat and to allow only indirect heat. It now is a stable and pretty good working oven.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 27, 2018, 03:50:02 pm
content: ohmy.. they just milled an isolation ring in the copper.And now they have a floating copper island that is 0.2mm from line voltage carrying pins ...These clowns have never done certification of a board ... nor heard about creapage and clearance distance.