Egloo: heat your room using ancient technology - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: hans
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 17, 2017, 10:52:48 am
content: I was looking for some room heating figures and how it relates electronic equipment usage, when this popped up:https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/egloo-candle-powered-heater#/"Egloo is conceived for contrasting continuous waste of electricity used for warming domestic environment, offering, as a option, a candle-powered way that provides a cheaper and more ecological energy, taking advantage of features of terracotta that stores the heat and slowly and gradually releases it by radiation, even after it blows out.""For the well-functioning of the Egloo only four candles are needed. With an average duration of five hours they are enough to warm up a 20mq environment.""Once you light it up, Egloo needs 5 minutes to get to the right temperature. Once the candles are lighted up, they will warm up before the thinner chamber storing a high rate of heat (between 140° and 180° degrees). The warmth is then conveyed to the external covering (between 30° and 50° degrees).The air intake of the external dome facilitate the outgoing of the warm air stored between the covers, allowing thermal exchange with the room environment.After only 30 minutes the temperature of the environment surrounding the Egloo will be increased between 2° and 3° degrees."You could as well put 4 candles in a glass candle holder.

author: daqq
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 17, 2017, 11:16:58 am
content: ...so, there's a kickstarter for a candle holder? Or fire? Wow...

author: george graves
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 17, 2017, 12:13:06 pm
content: Nope - this is kinda legit. Not to say you can't DIY it yourself - but this is a real thing.I've seen boaters use something like this and it seems to work on up to 30 foot sail boats. Most people use a stack of one or more flower pots. Stacked like Russian dolls.Truth is, the cheap candles you can get at Ikea (called tealights) 100 for $3.99 USD - contains a lot of energy in them. The challenge is reducing soot, and making sure they burn safely - and release the heat in more as a radiant heat fashion(always more comfortable), then just a column of hot air going up and heating the ceiling - making one hot spot, and that's it. Hence using a stack of flower pots or one think one (usually clay. Or aka "terracotta" - same thing), with a good bit of mass)How good are candles at making heat? Well - about as good as jet fuel.Jet fuel (kerosene more-or-less) is 46.3 kJ/gCandle wax 42.0 kJ/gMethanol 19.9 kJ/g(source:http://galileo.phys.virginia.edu/outreach/8thgradesol/FuelEnergyFrm.htm)I would expect seasoned firewood to be in the low 10? Maybe someone can look that up.So yea, I just busted your attempt to bust that! Hahaha! (PS - I have no relation to the kickstarter, and loath most of them)

author: Red Squirrel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 17, 2017, 12:26:35 pm
content: They're almost making it sound like it's some kind of advanced technology lol. But that said I could see it being useful if you want to use candles for heat without an open flame. But you're not going to magically get more out of it. I don't imagine you'll be heating a room with a few candles but if you place them near you, maybe it will generate noticeable warmth as the pottery starts to absorb a lot of the heat and radiate it evenly. With a stand alone candle most of the heat just goes straight up.I'd say this is more viable than the batteriser.

author: george graves
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 17, 2017, 12:40:50 pm
content: Quote from: Red Squirrel on January 17, 2017, 12:26:35 pmIt still is an open flame, and you need to make sure you have some ventilation (a cracked window is all). I can't say for a large room, but if a boat that is sitting in cold water is a "room" they yes, it makes it warm and comfortable.It's as good as jet fuel yo!

author: hans
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 17, 2017, 04:17:37 pm
content: Quote from: george graves on January 17, 2017, 12:13:06 pmIngredients:http://www.ikea.com/gb/en/products/decoration/candles-candle-holders/glimma-unscented-tealight-art-50097995/https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paraffin_waxIndeed 42kJ/g for this kind of wax.100 candles weigh 1.27kg, so let's be generous and say 1 candle weighs 1/100 of that so 12.7 gram. This excludes fuss with the metal container.So 1 candle then contains 533.4kJ of energy.If that burns over 4 hours timespan (according to IKEA page), that is 14400 seconds -> 533400 / 14400 = 37W of 'heat power'.So 4 candles deliver 148.2W.Is that really going to heat a reasonable sized room? I've my doubts. I live in a 30m^2 studio with 2 radiators which have a typical output power of 2-3kW. Of course this is peak power, but I suspect continuously they will still be in the order of a few hundred Watts.I was actually looking up how much heat a 10-20W server will add in my room, but my conclusion was that it is totally insignificant.In addition, gas or city heating is cheaper. In my case, I pay 21.50 euro for 1GJ of energy. That's 277.78kWh. That's 7.7ct per kWh. Gas is just slightly more expensive.4 candles cost 7ct. The egloo costs ~45-60 euro itself, so if I have to burn literally thousands of candles to break even that doesn't seem to make sense..In fairness, it does look like a nice furniture accessory.edit: spelling

author: Red Squirrel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 17, 2017, 06:04:28 pm
content: I have about 400w of server stuff in my server room and get low temp alarms all the time. Is 9C bad for a cpu?I don't heat my house any warmer than 13C if I'm not home so basement gets quite cold.I will be mitigating that once I insulate and seal that particular room and add an air exchange system. In winter it will mostly recirculate.You need several kw to really heat a standard size or even small room.

author: Kleinstein
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 17, 2017, 06:56:08 pm
content: The 4 candles don't give a lot of power, and they are still rather expensive fuel (e.g. around $3 per kg) at a similar energy contend to heating oil, that is at less than $1.If more is used, you also need extra ventilation and this way will loose some of the energy - if you overdo is even more than you gain.So it is more like a gimmick for the optics, not for serious heating. More like those fake ethanol fueled fire places. If at all it might work in a very well insulated house - where those 150 W can make difference and you have active ventilation with energy recovery. As one need extra heating only for a very few days - the high fuel costs might even be acceptable. However a PC and monitor to display a nich fire place might be about as effective - both for the optics and heating.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 18, 2017, 02:29:23 am
content: "Heat the room" .... from 4 tealight candles? I don't think so.Warming a cup or your hands - certainly. Drying your nail polish ... I suppose (no experience.)However, warming your clothes is not something I would be comfortable with. One stray fibre and you could be looking at a major heating event.Soot control is one thing that the inner chamber would provide - so that's a positive. But I hope they have some means to address soot buildup or one day there could be an unpleasant surprise.And, as will all equipment using a real flame, proper ventilation must be considered.I can see such a product finding a niche - but I can't see it ever becoming an effective room heater. Even for the smallest room in the house, when volatile gas explosion becomes an issue.

author: Red Squirrel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 18, 2017, 03:59:14 am
content: Yeah if you did manage to use any fire source to produce significant heat then you need fresh air, and if you are simply exhausting it without providing fresh air then you're creating a vacuum sucking cold air into the house. It's why old style fireplaces are actually supper inefficient. For a proper efficient combusion system you want a fresh air intake and exhaust so that it's a closed system. A secondary heat exchanger is good idea too. Next thing you know you got a full blown condensing furnace and may as well just use natural gas.

author: G7PSK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 18, 2017, 09:14:22 am
content: One candle is hardly going to heat a room let alone a house, your hand if you hold them over it. Here in the UK they used to sell little paraffin lamps for green houses that had a wick consisting of a quarter inch cord, probably equivalent to four candles. The green house would still freeze over in winter if anything the water produced by the burning oil made things worse. To do any good you needed the oil burnners that used a tubular wick 2 or more inches in diameter and burnt a gallon a night a uk gallon that is not a wimpy US one either.

author: VK3DRB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 18, 2017, 10:08:19 am
content: Much better ideas...and

author: ealex
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 18, 2017, 10:25:31 am
content: i've played with some improvised thing that used candles to melt snow for drinkable water.for that usage they're appropriate: slow and constant burn so you don't overheat the vessel and you can leave it unattended with some basic safety in mind.also, the temperature would rise from the extra heat - but not to any comfortable level, enough so things would not freeze inside a small shelter (with the added body heat).the indiegogo thing - the basic idea is ok but not that usable in a "modern" environment.just a toy that looks nice ...

author: george graves
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 18, 2017, 12:38:05 pm
content: Quote from: hans on January 17, 2017, 04:17:37 pm4 hours isn't reasonable - at all! I think Ikea might be telling a bit of a fib. It's 30 mins realistically. I have some in my cupboard - and I'm sure it's more like 30 mins. So 4 times the figures?So lets call it 600 watts? Assuming the chamber makes it burn a bit slower (starving it from air a bit, running lean) still not bad. And that meets my experience of heating a sail boat.Still legit

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 18, 2017, 12:51:47 pm
content: The good thing about open flame heaters, is that you need to vent the room by the time they generate any heat to avoid suffocating because of CO2 and CO.

author: vealmike
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 18, 2017, 12:58:30 pm
content: Four candles?

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 18, 2017, 01:16:02 pm
content: Something more feasible for a tealight:http://www.instructables.com/id/Tea-light-cup-warmer/

author: george graves
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 18, 2017, 02:02:39 pm
content: Quote from: NANDBlog on January 18, 2017, 12:51:47 pmIf that was true - other then a small vent - me and most of my friends would be dead.http://bfy.tw/9XqnJust saying.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 18, 2017, 09:48:59 pm
content: I don't see the point. USD$55. Why not just use the candles without the holder? In any case, those tiny tea light candles don't release a lot of energy. The heat losses through windows and around door frames will be far greater than any heat generated. If you have particularly high ceilings, the heat will never be enough to reach low enough where it can be felt by occupants of the room.The product looks nice, but it's expensive and not very practical. Might be more useful in a very small room (such as a toilet or powder room) but even then, heat will escape through the fan grille and the moment you open the door.

author: R005T3r
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 19, 2017, 04:40:17 pm
content: It's plain stupid, but the most shocking thing is how on earth he raised all that money.... Beside the fact that using candles is one of the most efficient ways to raise a fire! History proved that many times, I think that Indiegogo should shut down these BS once and for all.

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 19, 2017, 09:12:11 pm
content: Quote from: george graves on January 18, 2017, 02:02:39 pmI would say its debatable if that is considered an open flame heater though:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gas_heater#Non-flued_heatersBut you are right if it is working properly, they are super efficient and shouldn't produce much CO:Quotehttps://www.cpsc.gov/s3fs-public/CO02.pdfThe thing is, while these indoor heaters wouldn't produce levels high enough to kill you, they can still reach levels that will have significant effects on health and mental performance. And you wouldn't notice it, unless it gets high enough to feel dizzy, headache, etc.

author: Seekonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 19, 2017, 09:52:20 pm
content: I make a fire starter out of shredded paper, the inch long crinkle cut type. and candle wax. Candles are free. This is the best fire starter ever. Long and slow burning, will even start damp wood. I used to make it out of dried coffee grounds and wax. Coffee grounds have a higher heat content than wood. made them into little patties. Not as hot a flame. Darn, now I've told you my kickstarter and I was going to get $38K.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 20, 2017, 05:09:23 pm
content: Quote from: george graves on January 18, 2017, 02:02:39 pmI used those burners also, when we had to dry paint, or heat up a garage. I would not do this in my living room. but I get your point, maybe i over exaggerated a little bit.

author: John B
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 21, 2017, 09:13:22 pm
content: It will be quite difficult to suffocate yourself, but even very small quantities of carbon monoxide in a room can give you a headache. Its a problem with those unflued gas heaters too.

author: Ampera
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 22, 2017, 01:33:49 am
content: Quote from: Red Squirrel on January 17, 2017, 06:04:28 pmThere is almost no such thing as too cold for semiconductors.Of course, the lower you go, the less resistance components have. This doesn't really matter if everything cools down uniformly, but if there is a large spike of cold in one area, and it lowers the resistance of some passives low enough, it could possibly fry something.But this is talking so cold it would cause immediate injury if you were to be in direct contact with it.The only point when there is an immediate issue is if your CPU is so cold it fails to boot. At that point, you need to warm it up again, but this is near liquid nitrogen temperatures, and only a problem if you have too much money and your solution is to waste it on clocking CPUs way past a reasonable level.You also have to look into (You don't have to and I don't imagine you would) the freezing point of common electrolyte for capacitors. If it freezes, ice expands, and you now have a ruptured cap. I don't think that this is much of an issue, but something to keep in mind.So as long as it's warm enough to where you can survive it with a sweater and some good trousers, you're golden.

author: PMOS
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: January 22, 2017, 01:48:12 am
content: Quote from: TwoOfFive on January 22, 2017, 01:33:49 amOne major problem with cooling down semiconductors - you're apt to get condensation, which corrodes things and generally makes your life miserable. This isn't so much a problem when everything is cold as when cold meets warm, however. Warm air cools, can't hold as much water, and any water it can no longer hold condenses out onto the nearest handy surface.(Also, in some cases you'll get e.g. voltage sources or oscillators drifting out of spec, which can cause problems.)

author: Ampera
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 22, 2017, 02:18:20 am
content: Quote from: PMOS on January 22, 2017, 01:48:12 amThe caveat here is that this only applies to sub ambient temperatures. He's worried his room is too cool for his machines.

author: Red Squirrel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 22, 2017, 02:33:28 am
content: Quote from: TwoOfFive on January 22, 2017, 01:33:49 amYeah I don't imagine it's too much of an issue. When you hit below zero is where you can get issues though. I work in telecom and it's typical for outside equipment cabinets to get near or even below zero. We usually let the techs know and the go shovel snow around it and close off the vents. Start getting odd alarms and sometimes failures in the negatives. The cards start to flex and stuff. It's more of a physical problem than an electrical one. The lead acid batteries don't do well in the sub zeros either but that's mostly a concern if the power goes out.