Repair / replace the textured vinyl/paint on HP and other TE - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / repair

author: HalFoster
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2019, 03:38:29 pm
content: AllAny recommendations on replacing the textured covering (vinyl??) on older HP and other test equipment?Hal

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2019, 07:17:29 pm
content: Sounds ambitious! - Wouldn't that have been some kind of vinyl sheet material that was bulk laminated onto aluminum plates, originally?

author: No.Mad
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2019, 07:44:35 pm
content: Oh yeah, I'm interested as well!For now for my understanding it's somewhat faux leather texture of a grey thin vinyl that was glued/laminated/heat treated over frame or chassis.I am convinced to plausible assumption of SilverSolder - perforations and cutouts are really clean and fairly smooth.Found something like that:https://www.walmart.com/ip/Faux-Leather-Vinyl-Promotional-Grey-5-Yard-Pre-Cut-Roll/989568704I was planning to do some tests with something similar both with and without adhesive on bottom side using some scrap aluminium.

author: rf-messkopf
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2019, 10:15:37 pm
content: Such vinyl foil is sold for the refurbishment of furniture (might be a useful search term), exhibition stand construction, or similar applications, and is available in all sorts of colours and also with leatherette finish. In accordance with this intended use it should be quite durable. There are even variants with small vent holes in the foil to avoid air bubbles when applying it. That stuff is not cheap though. A quick google search turned up quite a few mail order shops in Germany, for examplehttps://www.folienmarkt.de/X2-Folie-fuer-Moebel-und-Wand-Leder-Perlmutt-Krokodilleder.htmlhttps://www.klinger-moebelfolien.de/https://www.ifoha.de/shop/I have not any personal experience with replacing the vinyl foil of HP instrument covers though, but I guess that it will be hard to strip the old foil. That stuff is really sturdy.

author: HalFoster
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2019, 06:25:39 pm
content: I'm thinking of trying an auto upholstering shop - maybe for the material if nothing else. I had a couple of R&S SMIQ shells powder coated recently and they *really* came out nice. But, not an option for that deep texture. I'm sure that there's a professional version of the "crackle" paint sold in the big boxes, but I'm not sure where to look - not the auto shops for sure. Oh well, I'll keep looking...Hal

author: bitseeker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2019, 10:33:13 pm
content: Interesting. Are you doing a full replacement or just patching up the existing finish?

author: HalFoster
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 06, 2019, 06:34:38 pm
content: If patching is possible, that would certainly be preferable - but trying to match the existing seems like it would be extremely hard to do. A few marks and scuffs are to be expected with anything this old, but I have a few that have larger scrapes and such that would be nice to make go away. And, there are a few that I am hoping to do a "like new" refurb on.Hal

author: No.Mad
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 06, 2019, 10:13:10 pm
content: Done some poking and testing today. Here's some observation:Hot air station set on ~200C with applied 65L/min does smooth some minor scratches but not to "like new" state. Be careful with itSame flow, ~270C might wrinkle and damage your coating - upsie!Brushed with acetone, IPA and cyclohexane. All of them cleaned a nasty brownish heat mark / stain a bit, acetone is most aggressive. If you can live with brighter spots, go for itI got no bloody idea how they stuck it (the textured sheet) but it's real pain in the ass to try even take it off. Corner prying with scalpel was already a lot of effort. Maybe some king of chemical?Regards

author: bitseeker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 07, 2019, 03:16:19 am
content: Quote from: HalFoster on June 06, 2019, 06:34:38 pmIt's an art, but leather/vinyl repair kits might work with some practice. Basically, you mix different colors of the filler to get a match, then apply it to the repair area along with the vinyl patch to create the texture.I haven't used this one, but it's an example of what they look like:https://www.walmart.com/ip/3M-Leather-and-Vinyl-Repair-Kit/19864141

author: HalFoster
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 07, 2019, 11:40:00 am
content: Thanks, all!No.Mad: What you say has been my experience. Typically, the best thing by far for general deep cleaning and light stain removal is Mean Green. None of the other "green" cleaners, but the original Mean Green which you can still, thank God, buy by the gallon at Dollar General. (Simple Green, on the other hand, is great for circuit boards and such. Just rinse *very* well with DI water.) Orange oil for label residue, with Goo Gone for tougher adhesives. Never any problems with the orange oil (which is what the *spray* bottles of Goo Gone are) but the original Goo Gone can sometimes mess up lettering on panels. Magic Erasers for tough spots. I agree with you that acetone should be used *very* carefully - would probably work to soften the covering up to try a complete removal. Also, some variety of paint stripper.bitseeker: Great idea! I had completely forgotten about that. As you say, getting the color right would be the challenge though... I'm off work today, so if i get a chance I might run a case by a local upholstery place and see what they think...Hal

author: duak
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 07, 2019, 06:14:16 pm
content: Vinyl coverings could use contact cement or a pressure sensitive adhesive. Either way, they stick like schmitt to a blanket. There used to be a contact cement remover available but I don't know about the pressure sensitive stuff.The "Ultimate Remover" (or so the manufacturer says) is Goof Off. This stuff works on many things and can damage paint, labeling and some plastic surfaces. It contains xylene and a couple of other hydrocarbons beyond my understanding.I worked with a fellow that had a art background. We had some rack mounted equipment that had formed front covers that got scratched and scuffed. He touched up the damage with a matching spray paint applied by dabbing with foam rubber. This gave a textured finish that was at least as good, and maybe better than the original. Amazing.

author: No.Mad
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 07, 2019, 08:03:18 pm
content: @HalFoster: what I usually do is warm water and white CIF cream - acts as cleaning agent and a polishing agent. Takes most of stuff, even oils and some sticky residue, surface is intact.Unfortunately, after quick search, I see that Mean Green is not available in Europe. Or I'm blind and didn't look well enough.On the other hand: does anybody knows what material is front sticker with all the info like model, rating and HP logo? I was wondering if it's possible to get it made in some kind of printing company as I have one which is ripped in half.Regards

author: HalFoster
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 07, 2019, 09:07:02 pm
content: No.Mad, I've never tried CIF cream - never used it. Do you mean as a general cleaner?Mean Green is a Rustoleum product:https://www.rustoleum.com/pages/mean-greenDon't know if that makes it easier for you or not - it may have more of a regional distribution. It's great for just about any cleaning around the house - coffee or juice stains on counters come right off. I've been using it for years and have yet to have any surface damage from it but, of course, YMMV.Reprinting the label is an excellent idea. Print with color laser for fade resistance, stick on, mask off and spray with good acrylic. Should look very nice and last. I have the cases from my parts units - if I can get one off in good condition, I'll scan and post if you could use.Hal

author: bitseeker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 07, 2019, 10:17:56 pm
content: Quote from: No.Mad on June 07, 2019, 08:03:18 pmDepends what device you're referring to.

author: No.Mad
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 07, 2019, 11:38:53 pm
content: @HalFoster: Yup, exactly as that - general cleaner. Saves a lot time when compared to soap and warm water. But it's no-no for transparent plastics, it's gonna cloud them.Rust-oleum products that are avaible on this side of Atlantic are mostly paints - maybe because of some chemical-related law regulations? Don't know. Got myself quite a collection of cleaning agents (my OCD for clean PCB after rework/repair, ehhh) so I'm goodWhat I was thinking about label is more of adhesive-type thick sticker that you could order from here:https://www.mavericklabel.com/products/graphic-overlay.htmlor here:https://www.frontpanelexpress.com/graphics/digital_printing/I know somebody who could do all vector graphic preparation. If you could scan front panels, without damaging them, from donors we could come up with some digital library for everybody to use@bitseeker: 66xx System DC Power Supply System series. Got one like in the picture.

author: bitseeker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 08, 2019, 01:59:00 am
content: Ah, yes. That makes more sense. Totally different era. I'm not sure what kind of plastic they use for that. I have a 6032A and the front panel has a nice texture to it, more so than an E3631A (which seems to have at least two layers).

author: No.Mad
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 08, 2019, 03:33:48 pm
content: Maybe we should ping somebody from Keysight about materials used? It's not IP, I think, and should pose no problem.Is anybody active on forum from Keysight directly?

author: bitseeker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 08, 2019, 05:24:30 pm
content: Yes, Daniel Bogdanoff is from Keysight.

author: No.Mad
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 08, 2019, 09:52:39 pm
content: So I PM Daniel with polite question if he could contribute to our search.In the meantime i did some evaluation on my side. As duak and SilverSolder said, this vinyl coat had to be somehow fitted with pressure or heat or combo of it on material before bending and then punched with holed and shapes. Some Close-ups below, look how clean holes are. BUT the side panels hiding screws are on double sided tape. Maybe there is hope after all?The front panel is aluminium with print on it. IPA is taking the paint off easily, I wasn't careful enough but managed to take only a little from surface.Right now I'm fighting with yellowish, hard, glue-like residue and I'm running out off options.RegardsPS: some bonus in gold goodiesEDIT: Yup, faux leather vinyl from sides is "bare". So there was some chemical adhesive added to it or on surface of aluminium chassis to keep it together. If we could know what make it "tick" the refurb and replacement would be quite easy.

author: duak
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2019, 04:08:04 am
content: No.Mad - try some gasoline or petrol - ie., automobile fuel to remove the old adhesive from the metal. It usually has some Benzine, Toluene or Xylene which I think will work for you.BTW, an old camera repairman told me to use gasoline on the fine threads of camera lenses as it dissolves many adhesives without damaging paint. It worked for me.

author: No.Mad
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2019, 02:49:35 pm
content: Quote from: duak on June 09, 2019, 04:08:04 amThanks for tip. Any particular brand of gasoline or just the one you can get on gas station?You can see the stubborn glue residue in photo (it's hard, almost like epoxy)

author: duak
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2019, 04:17:25 pm
content: No.Mad - yes, the stuff from the gas station.I recomend gasoline only for dried adhesives on metal as a first test. Be very careful with any unproven solvent on the front panel. I think the material is a polycarbonate which is sensitive to aromatic hydrocarbons that are present in gasoline. Searching for "polycarbonate labels" gives examples like this:https://www.label-aid.com/polycarbonate.html

author: No.Mad
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2019, 09:43:21 pm
content: Quote from: duak on June 09, 2019, 04:17:25 pmSoooooo, I took your advice. 4 hrs later with removing, shading, polishing with toothpaste... End of my toil is nighAttaching photos of a kit if somebody would like to take this route. Watch out with glue remover, I knew how it would eat a surface of a paint but I didn't mind as it was yellowish. Then toothpaste and CIF polishing with green washing abrasive cloth (it's so old it's almost soft). Unfortunately it's not so even (see yellow and red circles), but I had to stop cause there was grey area thinning (see green). First is when I got it, two next after soapy bath for comparison as before, rest is after I think is close to as new colour?Cheers

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2019, 10:25:43 pm
content: WD40 worked well for me on 20 years old stubborn sticker residue.

author: No.Mad
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2019, 10:33:56 pm
content: Quote from: Bud on June 10, 2019, 10:25:43 pmNo worries, will try later on another piece of equipment I got and will post before and after pics with some observation. Thanks for the tipI'm a bit concerned that I might hijacked thread.HalFoster?

author: HalFoster
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2019, 03:21:21 pm
content: No.Mad, not at all! I've been following and very interested in the posts so far - but the Real World has been very much intruding on my TE playtime and I haven't had anything constructive to add. What time I've had for that has been working on a clean up area for the gear I am working on. Seems the (Very Much) Better Half found my cleaning case panels and such in the kitchen sink to be quite bothersome. Don't know why - I usually managed to keepmostof the water off the floor... Anyway - and on a very much related note - I decided to make a dedicated area in the garage. Free standing utility sink and table with room to put everything as I work on it as well as the ultrasonic cleaners: 22, 6 and 1.3 liters for all your lazy-and-don't-feel-like-scrubbing-much needsI'm starting to get comfortable with the fact that circuit boards *can* be washed... withing certain constraints, the most import of which is that they must be rinsed very, very well with *pure* water. So, I'm adding a point-of-use water filtration system with - most importantly - a deionizer stage for the final rinse. Followed by a stay in the food dehydrator since, evidently, it works just as well on power supplies as it does on apples. Who knew?Hal

author: No.Mad
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2019, 04:13:01 pm
content: Ufff, good to know. I have tendency to be overexcited when talking/writing about stuff that I'm interested inQuoteI know that from autopsy xD But I think me and my Luv are even, cause she's into soap and cosmetics making. So yeah, we're even in a sense of making a mess in the kitchen. Maybe you should try to get yours Better Half on board? It's really satisfying to actually see, that your time spent on restoring something, paid off and now you have like new applianceQuoteIf you are starting in this matter I could point you in right direction, or rather industry standard and give some tips. I spent some time in PCB manufacturing and right now I do mostly unconventional electronics prototypes for High-tech company in Silicon Fen.On the other hand I would be much interested in your experience with ultrasonic cleaning. I didn't have an opportunity to do much of it and I lack space (damn you second floor flat!). There are some intricate effects due to setting and solution used.Regards

author: HalFoster
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2019, 06:00:42 pm
content: I'm *always* open to suggestions and new ideas. This, as with everything I suppose, is very much "learn as you go." And when dealing with equipment of this nature and vintage, it's the little things that really can make a difference. For the most part, the ultrasonics are for everything *but* the boards. For those, I use a light spray of Simple Green (NOT Mean Green) and use a paint brush with about 1/4 of the bristles cut off to work in around components. Then rinse well with tap water, final rinse with the filtered DI water. Long, slow dry in the heat and then re lubricate pots, that kind of thing.First started looking into washing as an option when I read this:https://www.radiomuseum.org/forum/tektronix_washing_your_instrument.htmlVery few things actually need to be washed, usually a supply of Q-Tips, denatured alcohol and patience it all it takes. The old HP power supplies tend to need it the most. Been in constant use for 40+ years and the large vent holes let the crud in over time. They are all old enough to have been used back when people still smoked in the workplace, so that really gives a good start to the crud buildup. But, that's why I love threads like this - and the fact that they *do* wander sometimes - because every piece of kit is different and what works on one will ruin another. Plus, taking something that looks like it's been in a barn (and probably has) for 50 years and making it look like it was brand new is what I love about this.Hal

author: No.Mad
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2019, 11:24:53 pm
content: Quote from: HalFoster on June 11, 2019, 06:00:42 pmTo leave this thread as mostly paint, vinyl coat and frame/chassis cleaning I made a new topic here to keep it nice and tidy:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/repair/pcb-cleaning-methods-solvents-and-techniques/msg2478840/#msg2478840Have a look and enjoy