Samsung throwing the towel in Texas?? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: schmitt trigger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 13, 2024, 04:53:34 pm
content: Unfortunately, I ignore the accuracy of the following news, as it doesn’t provide details about the probable root causes.Comments I’ve read elsewhere range the gamut from “America no longer can produce advanced semiconductors” to the “foreign companies bow to Washington pressures to produce in US soil but aren’t committed for the long run”.Hopefully here I can find less biased thoughts.https://wccftech.com/samsung-withdraws-personnel-from-taylor-texas-plant-due-to-low-2nm-gaa-yield/amp/

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 13, 2024, 05:01:24 pm
content: I've never seen TSMC complain about not being able to produce advanced semiconductors in the US. Their complaints are all about the high cost of getting anything done in the US.

author: schmitt trigger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 13, 2024, 06:54:45 pm
content: I dunno. A quick Google search yielded the following:https://restofworld.org/2024/tsmc-arizona-expansion/Quote: “When Nancy Pelosi visited Taiwan in 2022, Chang lectured the House speaker on the challenges the U.S. would face in mastering the microscopic precision required in chip production. Chang has since also warned against the lack of manufacturing talent in the U.S., and how hard it would be for Taiwanese managers to supervise Americans. Speaking to the Vying for Talent podcast in April 2022, Chang concluded that the U.S.’ attempt to onshore semiconductor manufacturing would be “a very expensive exercise in futility.”I ignore the accuracy of this article.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 13, 2024, 07:19:02 pm
content: Quote from: schmitt trigger on September 13, 2024, 06:54:45 pmIt was a while ago when I saw TSMC complaining about things costing too much to do in their US fab, making it uncompetitive. I guess time has moved on, the US has fallen further behind, and the skills pool has shrunk. Not surprising now I've thought through the timescale on which the decline of US fabs has taken place. Too many people think of fabs as a massive investment in cash, which can occur quickly, and ignore the related investment in people, which takes time to produce results.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 13, 2024, 07:53:51 pm
content: I don't know if I posted this before, but I bought some pants I use for cycling made by a US based company. They have production in the US and in China. The pants made in the US all have uneven leg lenghts. Like up to 4 (maybe 5) centimeters. The ones produced in China all have perfectly equal leg lenghts. I mean, if the US can't even produce something simple like pants, then the country is seriously doomed.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 13, 2024, 08:02:56 pm
content: It seems to me that an educated populace is required for modern semiconductor manufacturing, at all levels. I think we have the very high end covered but we need a lot of work on the entry levels. The public education systems aren't going to produce adequate results so the companies are going to have to provide on-the-job educatiion at all levels. Yes, some of the newly educated are going to leave but a rising tide lifts all boats. The companies will be hiring from a better educated pool.Make continuing education a requirement but make it achievable. Pass Algebra I, get a raise. Pass Algebra II, get another raise. And so on... But offer the courses during the work day. No extra child care, no cost to the worker, etc.

author: Benta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 13, 2024, 09:56:52 pm
content: An educated populace is certainly desirable and necessary.But it seems the main (religious) hobby in the US right now is banning books in schools.Go figure.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 13, 2024, 10:05:50 pm
content: Entitlement is probably also playing a big role. People want to get paid US$100 an hour for flipping burgers and retire at 50 years old.

author: mendip_discovery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 14, 2024, 07:41:12 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on September 13, 2024, 10:05:50 pmI doubt its time those extremes but what do you expect. Do really expect people to keep it the way it is that management get to earn healthy amounts of money and retire at 50 while the people making the products work until they drop and do it mostly for the pleasure of the business who if given the opportunity will close up and move elsewhere leaving them without a job.

author: Stray Electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 14, 2024, 11:58:51 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on September 13, 2024, 07:53:51 pmA friend of mine and I were talking about the serious lack of engineering and just plain old general analytical skills in the US today and he told me that a recent survey found that less than 30% of the young adult males in the US today can even change the tire on a car. IMO the US industry is in very serious trouble. Fortunately (??) the US is still able to attract very good engineering talent from all over the world.

author: Stray Electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 15, 2024, 12:31:16 am
content: Quote from: rstofer on September 13, 2024, 08:02:56 pmWhen I worked at Martin Marietta they did exactly that and I took courses from the first week that I was there and until the day that I left. However I found that VERY few employees took advantage of the free courses. Even though it was outside of my career field I took machine shop classes and all sorts of other non-work related classes but I was sometimes the only student in the class. When I started with them they had 14,000 employees in Orlando but I never saw more than about 20 students in any one class and by the time that the classes ended there were usually about 5 or 6 at the most. MMC offered the classes after work but they taught in the plant where I worked and MMC provided all of the equipment, all of the instructors and all of the books. I had just graduated from college when I went to work for MMC and I had had to payan arm and legfor tuition, books and all of the added college fees and I told my co-workers that they werenutsnot to take advantage of what MMC was offering them.There is a LOT of talk in the US about free college educations, student loan forgiveness and other related excuses but in my experience in the US military, in college and in industry is that VERY few people are actually willing to put much of an effort into getting an education. I've known people that were full time students but took 8 or 9 years to complete a four year degree. And most the students that I went to college withneverfinished getting their degrees. Most of them were there for the parties and so that they could live off of their daddy's money and not have to go to work!

author: DimitriP
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 15, 2024, 03:43:38 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on September 13, 2024, 07:53:51 pmThis message ends with Elon Musk - If that offends you stop reading now.ok, I'll say it....the solution to most problems (like manufacturing semiconductors in the US ) that the "status quo"takes too long to respond,waving the arms about in a "can't be done fashion"or just are too busy with feasability studies ortrying to time their decisions and promises with the "voting season",isElon Musk.

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 15, 2024, 04:49:04 am
content: Quote from: Benta on September 13, 2024, 09:56:52 pmBut an uneducated or pseudo-educated (ideologically programmed) populace is cheaper and easier to control and manage, from the point of those in actual power.I'm not talking about any conspiracy nonsense, though. It's just that maintaining a highly educated, high-complexity technical society isdifficult. That, and not any conspiracy is why actual power tends to shift from elected representatives to the civil service: elected politicians just cannot handle it all. Essentially, every productive task outside of interpersonal fields (service industry, management) requires more intelligence than a significant fraction of the population has. Those without sufficient intelligence are not suitable even in military services, as there are no tasks where they would not be a significant hindrance to the entire organization, as the US military branches found out after investigating this for decades.Just think about cleaning. You can't just hire someone to mop your floors and be done with it and expect satisfactory results, because we have a ton of chemicals and tools to choose from, and rules/directives/expectations to follow.Someonehas to choose what is done and when, and with what chemicals and tools. And with Western society complexity levels, that takes a surprising amount of either intelligence or domain experience, and both tend to cost.In medicine, we are paying severely for the lack of control in antibiotics, and bacteria and bugs becoming resistant. If people were kept better in check, and the more powerful antibiotics reserved for only occasional use, we could delay the resistance significantly. The math to determine how to save the most lives is simply too cold and uncaring – not to mention incomprehensible to most – to actually apply at the political, societal level. Politics and ruling would be much easier if people were less educated and less flexible in their opinions.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 15, 2024, 05:03:44 am
content: go read this :https://archive.ph/g76BYarticle from the new york times : What Works in Taiwan Doesn’t Always in Arizona, a Chipmaking Giant Learnsfor the vpn-challenged that have their ip blocked : alternate linkshttps://www.yahoo.com/news/works-taiwan-doesn-t-always-113424646.html?https://www.nytimes.com/topic/company/taiwan-semiconductor-manufacturing-company-ltd

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 15, 2024, 05:36:10 am
content: Quote from: free_electron on September 15, 2024, 05:03:44 amIf you're telling me, I cannot:the site has blocked all Finnish IP addresses since 2015.Besides, just plonking down a link and telling others to go look at it is silly and unhelpful. At minimum, you should notewhatit is, and preferably alsowhyyou think someone else should read it.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 15, 2024, 10:11:09 am
content: Quote from: Stray Electron on September 15, 2024, 12:31:16 amThen again, studying after a work day is something you need to have the energy for. Especially if you have a family at home, it is super hard to do. Back in the early 70's my father took a couple of years off to get a engineering degree and a student loan + my mother's work provided income. But those where the days buying a home wasn't super expensive and borrowing from family wasn't made difficult.

author: mendip_discovery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 15, 2024, 11:26:07 am
content: Quote from: Stray Electron on September 14, 2024, 11:58:51 pmChange a tyre or fit a wheel. I don't expect many people to change tyres, exp car tyres. Changing the wheels is a lot easier but I can see why people don't.We have made things easier to use and requires less tinkering. Do you know how to adjust the timing, change a cam belt, repalce worn brake pads or even do a oil and filter service on a car? I do, I even know how to set the points on my motorcycles.Therefore people don't tinker, fast forward that ans you end up with people not knowing where the jack, wheel brace and spare wheel is. Many modern cars don't even come with a spare so you are forced to wait for recovery.Just look at computers, no more having to go into dos as you start the pc to tell the computer to load the CD drive or even load the sound card. We are to blame for our own downfall, please don't blame the kids.

author: watchmaker
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 15, 2024, 12:17:24 pm
content: Smartphones did us in."When I was a boy...." and you got into a jam in the woods, you had to figure it out for yourself. Today, the first thing kids do is turn to Google.I have talked with medical educators who tell me of a dearth of problem-solving and basic mechanical skills. There was a time when you got into age appropriate trouble (5 year old; 10 year old, teen) and you learned how to fail and to overcome. You learned how to persevere. Between smartphones and parenting styles that prevent kids from being in situations that may result in failure, many young adults are ill prepared.In the research, this is called "learned helplessness".Just being a grumpy old man.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 15, 2024, 02:05:11 pm
content: Quote from: watchmaker on September 15, 2024, 12:17:24 pmI think you are right. I have an old children's wood-working kit which I got from an older family member. All the tools are sharp. Just downsized to fit the hands of a kid. You can build real projects with that kit! Not the plastic rubbish you find in the stores today. I'm planning on letting my grandchildren use that kit and build things from wood if they like. If you hurt yourself, you where doing it wrong!

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 15, 2024, 03:27:41 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on September 15, 2024, 10:11:09 amUndergrad: 4 years at night - tuition paid by VAGrad school: 1 year at night - tuition paid by employerYes, it takes a lot of effort. There's wasn't a lot of time for socializing as I also worked full time plus a bunch of overtime during undergrad.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 15, 2024, 05:08:54 pm
content: Quote from: watchmaker on September 15, 2024, 12:17:24 pmnope. tiktoc , you-twit-face and ChatGPT (and alike Artificial Idiots). google is last resort.for the vpn challenged i update the article links. It's interesting read . Work ethic and culture clash east<>west.https://www.nytimes.com/topic/company/taiwan-semiconductor-manufacturing-company-ltd

author: DimitriP
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 15, 2024, 08:10:43 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on September 15, 2024, 02:05:11 pmJust make sure they don't tell anyone and no one sees them with these tools

author: watchmaker
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 15, 2024, 08:16:11 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on September 15, 2024, 02:05:11 pmNctnico,I support your view.An example. When my daughter was first learning to get around on her own, we were at a party. She started climbing on a chair. I advised her she was going to fall. She gave me a devilish look and continued. And started to fall. Of course I ensured only her pride would get hurt, but everyone at the party thought I was nuts.When it came to school, my professional wife insisted that every piece of homework get checked. This was at the time when every professional woman had to be trhee times better than a male colleague just to be equal. My position was that Lauren was very competency oriented and that if she failed to complete an assignment, she would be mad at herself and work harder. Finally, around third grade my wife relented and Lauren graduated HS (1000 kids) as number one and in 11th grade had been nominated to Princeton by the state alumni chapter.Today she is structural engineer with a Masters from Imperial in London.She is much more willing (eager?) to use the snooper truck, inspect box girders and tunnels than many of her male colleagues. But when it comes to safety she is highly anal. She is a PITA on interstate highway bridge inspections at night.All kids and parents are different, and we all muddle along as best we can. I wanted Lauren to view me as an elder member of the tribe who was authoritative, NOT authoritarian.But I do think it is important to allow kids to fail and even get hurt as long as it does not lead to an amputation.Today, someone would likely report me to Child Protective Services. It is a shame.Appropriate feedback is extremely important. When they fail to meet a standard, tell them. But also tell them why. Giving them credit for "trying" does not help the learning process.Kind of like how you guys give feedback on this forum. Generally, kids will respond the same way.

author: DimitriP
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 15, 2024, 08:33:27 pm
content: Quote from: free_electron on September 15, 2024, 05:08:54 pmCan't get access to the nytimes article without creating an account...but here is one that's available from a year or so ago....https://www.theguardian.com/business/2023/aug/28/phoenix-microchip-plant-biden-union-tsmcHalf the fun is everyone drawing their own conclusions!

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 15, 2024, 08:44:16 pm
content: Quote from: Stray Electron on September 15, 2024, 12:31:16 amFor a huge percentage of students college has nothing to do with gaining skills, knowledge and understanding. Its about the acquisition of sandpaper. Nothing more. Even for employers, it has nothing to do with gaining skills, knowledge and understanding, except for a modest percentage of jobs, like engineer, doctor or lawyer. Its about showing you will actually knuckle down and complete a substantial task. As engineers its easy to lose sight of just how irrelevant most people's educations are to the lives they lead. Even a high percentage of STEM graduates never use their STEM knowledge after they leave college, and lack the personal interest to make them keep up to date. If you ask most people why they chose the degree they have you get answers like "its what I was good at at school", or "I was told the degree was an easy route to a stable job".

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 15, 2024, 08:49:41 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on September 13, 2024, 10:05:50 pmMore like entitlement from the world that surrounds them.They can't accept a job paying less than $20 an hour, because property prices in their area have inflated such that an apartment costs $1,500 a month, and groceries have inflated 50-100% in the last 5 years, and all their other costs are sky high. They don't control any of this.I can't blame people for holding out for more pay and unionising to achieve that. What the unions and workers need to realise though is it goes both ways, if you get paid more, there is the inherent expectation of more commitment.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 15, 2024, 09:17:57 pm
content: Damn people who don't want to work for for peanuts and live in their car.They force us to outsource!

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2024, 12:30:13 am
content: Trying to buy lost/neglected/outsourced experience and know-how is always surprisingly expensive and difficult.The Antikythera mechanism was constructed about 2,200 years ago, but the know-how and capability was lost for well over a millenium.Ancient Rome had battlefield medicine with survival rates (including amputation) that we didn't regain until 1800s. And they had hydraulic concrete that sets in seawater and has proven to be very resilient against seawater and wave erosion (harbor structures two millenia old still intact), whose recipe was lost. Not only was it better, it probably released less CO2 into the atmosphere than our current concretes do (due to Portland cement manufacture), according toBerkeley Labs.This is analogous to 'institutional knowledge', and workmanship. Once lost, it is very expensive (and sometimes impossible/unfeasible) to regain.In Finland, this happened with housebuilding in the last century. Our climate is harsh, with -30°C to -45°C possible during the coldest part of Winter (depending on latitude), and +35°C to +25°C during the summer. Because of their mass, old concrete apartment houses in Helsinki built over a century ago, still easily fulfill the most stringent energy efficiency requirements (and have very high ceilings, sometimes over 3m); but most buildings built in the last 50 years have all kinds of issues and most likely a very limited lifetime, with actual defects quite common. There is no pride in ones work anymore at all, in the building industry at least, so the quality is shoddy at best – very similar quality issues to what have been mentioned wrt. Samsung and TSMC manufacture in USA.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2024, 12:36:31 pm
content: Quote from: Nominal Animal on September 17, 2024, 12:30:13 amI think its often quite the opposite. There is often too much misplaced pride concluding that a subject is well understood, and operating as well as it can, when real evidence says the opposite. For example, in the 1980s a lot of Victorian metallurgy knowledge had been lost to the point where many things, like bearings, were wearing out fast. This came to a head as more and more 100 year old bearings were just coming up to their first replacement, and the replacements failed very quickly. Then people were humiliated into relearning.

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2024, 02:13:57 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on September 17, 2024, 12:36:31 pmRight. I'm not sure "pride" was a good choice of a word; I was looking for a word describing the appreciation of workmanship, the experience required to do things well, and the willingness to do a good job even when nobody sees the results.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2024, 09:41:45 pm
content: That kind of goes along with the fact we make stuff that is a lot more short-lived, while that was unacceptable in the past (and unworkable, people just didn't have enough "money" flowing to afford that).Interestingly, we now consider that making long-lived goods is what's too expensive. That's obviously a fallacy in the long run, mainly explained by the fact our economy has shifted toward a debt-based economy, which has the "emerging property" of making quality work not economically viable.The pride we take or not in our work just follows.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2024, 10:31:31 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on September 17, 2024, 09:41:45 pmWhether it is a fallacy depends on the product. There was no point in making a long lived cell phone 10 years ago. Things were moving so fast few people wanted to keep their phone, working or not. Generally when things are changing fast, a long lived product has little value. As things mature and change more slowly they do.

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2024, 10:58:08 pm
content: Everyone except TSMC has had crap yields on EUV. Korea or US seems irrelevant in this respect.I suspect TSMC has some secret sauce in their pellicle, the only significant specialized component the fabs can introduce inside the stepper. Possibly even an active component, though the ASML engineers tend to be aghast if you suggest a mere customer messes about in their precious machine ... then again when that single customer buys so much of your companies output they might be able to hide something from some ASML engineers who don't need to know.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2024, 11:46:35 pm
content: Quote from: Marco on September 17, 2024, 10:58:08 pmIt seems unlikely that others have poor yields because of EUV itself. Its much more likely they have quirky processes at the fine geometries where they are using EUV, and TSMC has their's running sweetly.

author: EPAIII
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 22, 2024, 08:19:02 am
content: NOW you tell me about Martin Marietta. Where were you 50 years ago?Quote from: Stray Electron on September 15, 2024, 12:31:16 am

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 22, 2024, 01:05:21 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on September 17, 2024, 11:46:35 pmIt's not like multipatterning was straightforward, yet they could compete much better.TSMC was the first to use pellicles and still uses its own in house pellicles, I think they have some fundamental trade secrets in there. Even though pellicles are out of the focal plane, deformation will distort the projected image, they can cause yield problems even when they stop the contamination.TSMC's fab in Arizona is doing just fine ... Arizona ...