how to find or set up an electronics lab - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / beginners

author: atcosi
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: May 07, 2010, 08:35:35 am
content: I was hoping someone can help. I am looking for access to an electronics lab or how to set up one. I was the graduate who did well at exams but had no clue about practical electronics. As you can probably gather, I'm not working in electronics or anywhere for that matter. I was hoping if I had access to a lab and some support I could get the experience I should of have gotten on my own. I just feel bad to spend loads of money on the necessary equipment just so that I can tinker with electronics.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 07, 2010, 10:34:42 am
content: Try and find a local Hacker Space.Dave.

author: Kiriakos-GR
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 07, 2010, 12:02:29 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on May 07, 2010, 10:34:42 amIt took me as 5 minutes to translate the above coded messageTranslation : Find some one who does electronic repairs and join him as Trainee.And the best advice so far !!@atcosiI will add my too : Tell him ( The Boss ) that you do not need money at all , and that you will even map the floor for free.If you need from someone to Help you , you must sacrifice some of your ego in return.And stay humble as much as possible.The other way around , are to be sharp and Sparky , and be invited to join in a "local Hacker Space" .Good luck ..

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 07, 2010, 12:23:06 pm
content: Quote from: Kiriakos-GR on May 07, 2010, 12:02:29 pmErr, no.Tryhttp://hackerspaces.org/wiki/List_of_Hacker_SpacesDave.

author: Kiriakos-GR
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 07, 2010, 12:30:26 pm
content: Hmm.. Dave this places do mostly stuff about software , at list the Greek oneAny way , my suggestion still stands , even if the translation failed somewhere in the way

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 07, 2010, 06:02:47 pm
content: where are you located ?as for setting up your own, start by buying a multimeter, then if you feel the need get another one. if your serious about electronics than get a cheap oscilloscope and there are many decent analog ones on ebay or go for a cheap digital one like a rigol. get the equipment as you need it and can afford it.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 07, 2010, 11:05:40 pm
content: The Sydney hacker space is very electronics oriented and turnout is very good and consistent every weekend. I just donated 6 work benches to the space too.It's too far from me to attend though.But as simon said, just buy your own gear as you need it.Get a cheap meter or two, a soldering station, and an old analog scope and you are in business.Dave.

author: SuperMiguel
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 07, 2010, 11:32:51 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on May 07, 2010, 11:05:40 pmWould you rather get an old analog scope or the DSO nano? (http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/product_info.php?products_id=9625)

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 07, 2010, 11:44:31 pm
content: Quote from: SuperMiguel on May 07, 2010, 11:32:51 pmThe Nano is a toy, don't waste a cent on it.I'd rather have a bog standard old 20MHz dual channel CRO any day of the week!Dave.

author: Kiriakos-GR
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 07, 2010, 11:54:39 pm
content: Quote from: atcosi on May 07, 2010, 08:35:35 amPeople .. how in earth you promote to some one who has the balls to say ... " I do not know about practical stuff " , to buy one scope ?? He is not trained even to use it !!I agree about the basics as multimeter and one soldering iron .. not soldering station .The man should work as trainee , there is no other way, never was.

author: armandas
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 08, 2010, 12:16:46 am
content: Quote from: atcosi on May 07, 2010, 08:35:35 amYou got a degree in engineering, right? If you feel bad about buying lab gear, perhaps you should consider the opposite. Who knows, you might enjoy a position in salesOn a more serious note, getting basic tools as mentioned above is a good idea. You didn't provide much information about your location or the actual level of practical skills you have. An engineering degree is usually not worthless, so you could probably try and get an internship position where the company does not expect you to have much knowledge about practical things. On the other hand, it may take you a year or two to even start getting confident in practical electronics. Such a gap will not do you any good, so I'd suggest you try to get into ANY engineering internship (even if you'll be making coffee all the time) and then tinker with electronics on your free time.

author: SuperMiguel
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 08, 2010, 12:26:52 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on May 07, 2010, 11:44:31 pmfor example?

author: GeoffS
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 08, 2010, 12:35:12 am
content: If I was looking to set up a lab/workshop on a budget, I'd consider a DSO based on one theKNJN Flashyboards.TheDSO projectis here.Not only would you get a reasonable scope (~100Mhz), you'd get an FPGA and ARM processor to play with.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 08, 2010, 04:34:04 am
content: Quote from: Kiriakos-GR on May 07, 2010, 11:54:39 pmBecause that how you learn! You learn by just doing something and playing around.He implied he has qualifications but no real practical experience. So to get experience you acquire an oscilloscope and start playing around, it's REAL SIMPLE!What do you suggest? that he going on a formal training course on how to use an oscilloscope??Old analog oscilloscopes can be had for FREE or very little cost.Dave.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 08, 2010, 04:36:50 am
content: Quote from: tumutbound on May 08, 2010, 12:35:12 amYet another toy. Forget it. Get a proper dual channel analog oscilloscope.Dave.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 08, 2010, 03:58:02 pm
content: Quote from: tumutbound on May 08, 2010, 12:35:12 amin real timwe your actually looking at 20 MHz, as we've said, get a second hand analog, learn how it works and how to use it and may then consider a digital solution (and chances are you will resell your analog scope for about as much as you bought it for)

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 08, 2010, 07:43:00 pm
content: you can do plenty with a 20 MHz analog scope

author: SuperMiguel
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 08, 2010, 07:53:48 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on May 08, 2010, 07:43:00 pmbut a used 20 MHz used (ebay) is like $100+

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 08, 2010, 08:02:57 pm
content: well thats cheap, new they are close to 500, you may find that they go in highs and lows it depends on how many are available, I bought mine for £50 and sold it for £70 when I got my DSO, of course if you want to invest a bit more get a cheap DSO (there are a few) or got for a rigol DS1052E. The other question is do you really need one now ? if not then maybe save.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 08, 2010, 08:35:50 pm
content: I think the analog one is a good place to start as that way you "get to know your stuff" it is easier to not make a mistake in a measurement when you are selecting the V/Div and S/Div and get to see all aspects of the signal before looking at what your after. it is so easy to hit the auto button on a DSO and get a wave form but you can be anywhere in the scopes range (and other setting will be altered) so knowing how to use a scope before getting a fancy bit of kit is a good idea. Even hanging onto that scope after you get a DSO is wise, sadly i could not as i neede the money

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 08, 2010, 10:04:49 pm
content: Quote from: SuperMiguel on May 08, 2010, 07:53:48 pmNot so.This one didn't sell at $20 for example!http://cgi.ebay.com.au/LG-OS-5020-20Mhz-Dual-Trace-Oscilloscope-/290431070540?cmd=ViewItem&pt=BI_Oscilloscopes&hash=item439f0a714cI know people who give them away for free if you ask nicely on groups like sci.electronics.designDave.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 08, 2010, 10:07:39 pm
content: Quote from: shafri on May 08, 2010, 04:44:52 pmIf you find an analog oscilloscope "confusing" then you have not really learned how an oscilloscope works.If you use a digital scope in manual mode then it should be just as "confusing" as an analog scope, essentially no difference at all.But if you are one of these people who just hit the evil AUTO button on the digital scope, then you are not learning a thing!Dave.

author: Kiriakos-GR
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 08, 2010, 11:15:35 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on May 08, 2010, 10:07:39 pmWe have the same issue with the new Digital photographers .. LOLOnly the 5% use thedivinemanual mode ..

author: SuperMiguel
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2010, 02:42:11 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on May 08, 2010, 10:04:49 pmyou right so me as an EE student should get one of those before i get a digital one like the DS1052Eif yes you recommend the LG-OS-5020? or any analog 20 MHz like:http://cgi.ebay.com/GOLDSTAR-OS-7020A-DUAL-TRACE-OSCILLOSCOPE-20MHz_W0QQitemZ260591110323QQcategoryZ104247QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp4340.m263QQ_trkparmsZalgo%3DDLSL%252BSIC%26its%3DI%252BC%26itu%3DUCI%252BIA%252BUA%252BFICS%252BUFI%252BDDSIC%26otn%3D20%26po%3D%26ps%3D63%26clkid%3D8669707153287065048like for less than $100 which one would you recommend?

author: allanw
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2010, 03:32:42 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on May 08, 2010, 10:04:49 pmWell, the S&H costs for that is $100, so it's not that great of a deal.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 09, 2010, 07:27:12 am
content: Quote from: Kiriakos-GR on May 08, 2010, 11:15:35 pmYes there are lots of people tooting DSLR camera's that use thrm in full auto and with JPEG output, such a watse. I use mine in semiautomatic (aperture priority) but am constantly mindful of the scene and my camera settings which I ajust accordingly

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 09, 2010, 07:29:55 am
content: Quote from: shafri on May 09, 2010, 06:08:21 amnot so, you can get as lost on a DSO as you can on an analog one, the operation of the two in manual is exactly the same, instead of having the V/Div on the selector it is on the screen

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 09, 2010, 11:37:25 am
content: Quote from: allanw on May 09, 2010, 03:32:42 amErr, it's an example. Find one that's cheaper for postage or one nearby where you can pick up.In the US there are countless places to pick up this sort of scope cheaply, outside of ebay too. And as I said, you can even get them for FREE. I know because I've given away one myself, and have also directed quite a few beginners to the usenet newgroups where they have picked up useful analog scopes for free.Even in Australia which is a surplus test equipment desert compared to the US, it's not too hard to pick up a decent analog scope for $50-$100.I really feel sad for any beginner who thinks digital is the only way to get, and they get these silly little toy scopes like the Nano or other DIY scopes, when for the same cost or less they can get an infinitely more useful real analog scope.Dave.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 09, 2010, 02:52:12 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on May 09, 2010, 11:37:25 amSo true, the assumption that digital is best is a bad one, I bought an analogue meter purposely and paid for it more than I would for a cheap digital

author: SuperMiguel
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2010, 03:31:16 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on May 09, 2010, 11:37:25 amcan you recommend a model or a brand of what i should be looking for??

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 09, 2010, 03:39:35 pm
content: just go on ebay and see what there is in your country, make sure the seller has a good feedback and read the description carefully, check to see if it has a photo of a visible waveform on the listing to ensure it does work. also a local technical school may be throwing one out

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 10, 2010, 03:13:24 am
content: Quote from: SuperMiguel on May 09, 2010, 03:31:16 pmTektronix probably #1, but they hold there value well, so probably more buyers for them on ebay than all other brands combined.Then there is HP of course, but they are usually either very big, or very old, but bargains to be had there.Then it probably doesn't matter, most brands of older analog scopes are pretty decent. It always was very hard to find a "crap" analog scope actually. Even the no-name Chinese rebadged ones were fairly decent.I notice that high bandwidth Philips ones go for good prices.Kikusui, Hitachi, Hameg are all very good, but there are countless others.They key thing is to make sure you see at least a couple of waveforms on the display to show it basically works. Beware of ones advertised as "I am unable to test this, sold as-is" etc.Dave.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 10, 2010, 08:21:33 am
content: Quote from: SuperMiguel on May 09, 2010, 02:42:11 amThat Goldstar one is just fine.They don't show it actually with a working waveform on the screen though, but the traces show the horizontal at least works.Getting an analog scope first before a digital will give oyu good grounding in how scopes actually work.Dave.

author: atcosi
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: May 10, 2010, 08:54:43 am
content: Quote@Armandas:I live in Melbourne Australia. I don't think that I can get an internship. If you mean unpaid work experience, I think there are legal reasons why I couldn't get that. Whenever I asked my career counsellors at my uni, they said to me that there are issues with Workcover (a local authority on work safety). I think I remember them saying to me that I needed to be insured by an institution (uni, social services) if I wanted to do unpaid work experience. Personally I think it's got more to do with preventing employers from exploiting people. I didn't probe the matter any further.Quote@Dave:Thank you for your help. The hacker space idea is good in that at least I'll have some access to equipment. But I wonder what kind of equipment. I also wonder whether once a week is enough. It's also a fair way from where I live. Still beggars can't be choosers. I just hope the group will accept someone like me.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 12, 2010, 11:43:21 am
content: the key thing to remember is that understanding how something works helps you use it properly, troubleshoot problems and make the most of your equipment, who can drive a car better and more economically ? a mechanic or someone that just knows "how to drive" ?

author: SuperMiguel
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 14, 2010, 01:44:32 am
content: I know you guys recommended 20MHz but higher MHz better??? also if i get an scope that is not tuned/calibrated, how easy is to tune it or calibrate it...

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 14, 2010, 02:04:23 am
content: Quote from: SuperMiguel on May 14, 2010, 01:44:32 amYes, higher the better. 20MHz is the traditional "benchmark" bandwidth, so much so that even most modern DSO's will have a 20MHz bandwidth limiting setting. Prices start to go up a fair bit once the bandwidth hits 100MHz.I'd recommend you get a scope that is verified as working. Then you'll likely find that it's not too far off the mark in terms of vertical or horizontal calibration. I think most scopes tend to go wonky and fail in ways other than just the calibration.Re-calibration depends entirely on the scope in question, but usually shouldn't be too hard, and service manauals are generally pretty easy to get hold of for most brand name scopes.Dave.