Counterfeit Chinese ..... FUSES - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: macboy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2014, 06:53:52 pm
content: I bought a pack of cheap automotive fuses at a dollar store the other day. I thought that I would test one out to see if it blew anywhere near the rating. Grabbed one marked 7.5 A and connected it to a 10 A lab supply. Cranked the current until it read 10.5 A (supply max). Hmm. Didn't blow. Connect the other side of the supply in parallel. Start cranking the current... until 21 A total is flowing through the bugger.Then I grabbed the lowest rated fuse in the pack, a 3 A one. Connected those two supplies... 21 A, and no blow. Connect another supply and another 12 A for 33 A total. No blow. Instead, it melted. It probably would have caught fire if I had left it long enough.Turns out that all of the "fuses" are just a little stamped piece of aluminum. All of them are identical except for the color of the plastic shell and the 'rating' printing thereon.Semiconductor fakes are one thing. They take a cheap little part and stamp a high rated (expensive) part number on it and hope nobody notices. When the device fails due to severe abuse of the little crappy part, it usually just stops working, and hopefully nobody dies a fiery death. These "fuses" are a fiery death waiting to happen.Fucking Chinese counterfeit crap. Anything to make a buck, even if it means blatantly endangering lives.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2014, 07:19:53 pm
content: Those have been around before, AFAIK Autozone in the USA had bought a whole container load that they had to recall as they were fake, and would never blow.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 11, 2014, 07:39:36 pm
content: Quote from: macboy on November 11, 2014, 06:53:52 pmFor sure they are junk, however good fuse wouldn't blow at 10A either. Current rating is current at which fuse must hold, current it needs to blow is much higher. For example, curves from some random datasheet.

author: macboy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2014, 07:45:54 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on November 11, 2014, 07:39:36 pmI wasn't putting a pulse through the thing, I was putting continuous current for minutes at a time. A 1 A fuse shall blow with less than 2 A... it just takes a little while to heat up.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 11, 2014, 07:48:11 pm
content: I was talking about 10A at which it should never blow. At 20A it should blow in 10+ seconds I guess.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2014, 07:52:56 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on November 11, 2014, 07:48:11 pmA 7.5A blade fuse at 10A should blow. It might take a few (.. up to 20 or 30..) minutes, but it should blow. At 20A it should blow in under five seconds.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2014, 08:31:00 pm
content: QuoteTake a few fuses of your trusted brands, do the same experiment and report back please.

author: daqq
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2014, 08:38:00 pm
content: Oh goodie! ANOTHER thing to be paranoid about.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2014, 08:50:54 pm
content: Well, even if the fuse is genuine, the plastic shouldn't melt. The fuse should fail before the plastic melts.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2014, 09:02:04 pm
content: great ! finally a fuse that doesn't blow!fuses that don't blow... that blows ...

author: Vito_R
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2014, 09:07:01 pm
content: Sadly not surprising as we are seeing more and more counterfeit dangerous parts and products coming out of China as the counterfeiters are even copying the counterfeits and making them even more dangerous. One shady fly by night operation in a remote part of china opens up for a while, produces a big lot of parts and dumps them to big wholesalers or sellers on ebay. The police there can't seem to do anything about it and the government doesn't seem to care less about it either. Now with all the recalls happening in the automotive industry they are starting to talk about passing laws to force the car companies to have some sort of certification or standard testing of all these parts before they are allowed to be used on the assembly line. They can't trust the Chinese manufacturers to do this for them anymore. I seriously miss the era of good quality made in USA or Japanese parts.

author: SL4P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2014, 09:19:16 pm
content: And oddly, many targets of these scams are criticized for being anti-Asian, anti-Chinese racists.It hasnothingto do with the country, people or their ancestry - it haseverythingto do with being lying, cheating low-lifes that exist purely for their own gain and profit, to the detriment of others.If that's how anyone wants to roll, then they should be happy with the feedback and punshment - positive or negative.There are certain eastern European cultures that invoke the same types of reaction - simply by being in the wrong place at the wrong time, holding bulk quantities of fake, dangerous ripoff goods, and wads of ill-gotten money. Go figure.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2014, 09:23:46 pm
content: QuoteI view this as an opportunity to teach self-preservation: it is unreasonable to ask that others care about you more than you do. Buying important things, like a fuse, from a less-than-reputable source in order to save a penny or two is unwise and can be detrimental.Another example of high costs of low prices.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2014, 09:28:54 pm
content: Quote from: dannyf on November 11, 2014, 09:23:46 pmExcept that Auto-Zone, a US retailer was selling these packs of fuses. A reasonably trustworthy place and they were likely selling them for more than a dollar. How is the average consumer supposed to determine that fuses are genuine? Not everyone knows what to look out for.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2014, 09:36:34 pm
content: QuoteBy being an above-average consumer?QuoteThen leave replacing a fuse to those who do know what to look out for.

author: Vito_R
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2014, 09:38:18 pm
content: Society must be blamed for this too as everyone seems to be brainwashed into thinking we must get everything as cheap as possible. They have been conditioned to think that price is of paramount importance and nothing else. Lower Lower Lower and the chinese have capitalized on this and quality and safety have completely gone out the window. Now we are starting to slowly pay for this. Not only are our landfills being filled with mountains of disposable chinese crap electronics that don't last must longer then the warranty, but they are also playing with our lives and safety now.

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2014, 09:41:43 pm
content: Quote from: dannyf on November 11, 2014, 09:36:34 pmWell, it's a good thing then that we're all well aware of the things we don't know.(Okay, some of us. Others knoweverything.)

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2014, 09:46:06 pm
content: QuoteAgreed. As you buy cheap "bargains", you will inevitably buy low quality stuff.On the flip side, I strongly support a market with differing (quality) products and services. Not everyone have the same appreciation for quality products and services and as such we are all better off if there are BMWs as well as Chevys.Let consumers choose what they want, knowing that they aren't getting BMWs when they pay Chevy prices.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2014, 09:47:41 pm
content: QuoteThat's the root cause of the demise of western civiliation: we aren't going to spend us into prosperity.We have to produce, except that we have been conditioned to punish our producers.

author: Vito_R
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2014, 09:50:52 pm
content: Quote from: AcHmed99 on November 11, 2014, 09:42:02 pmBring the manufacturing jobs back here and see what affect that will have on the economy.

author: Vito_R
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2014, 09:55:04 pm
content: Quote from: dannyf on November 11, 2014, 09:46:06 pmFine as long as my BMW made with counterfeit cheap chinese parts doesn't catch fire and kill me one day or the airbag blows up in my face while im driving I'll accept that.

author: wagon
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2014, 09:59:03 pm
content: I've seen blade fuses that do that in holders. In fact, I replaced a 6 way blade fuseholder in a concrete pump yesterday. There were two 30A fuses for the heat exchanger fans. The truck had spent the first couple years of its life on an island off Western Australia, during the building of a gas project or something. Salt air has affected many parts, and the fuse holders get corrosion in the contacts, they get high resistance, run hot & melt. The fuse doesn't blow, but melts.(I've made good money from that truck, and 90% of the problems have had corrosion-related causes)

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2014, 10:22:05 pm
content: Quote from: dannyf on November 11, 2014, 09:36:34 pmI would class myself as reasonably experienced in the field of electronics design and engineering. I understand how fuses work and what makes them tick. I can replace fuses in a car without taking it to a mechanic. However I could still not determine if a fuse is safe by immediately looking at it. And it would probably take me some time to check it is genuine using the right equipment which I'm certainly not going to be able to do when I'm stuck by the side of the motorway looking for the ignition circuit fuse in the pouring rain.While we are at it, how do I know the mechanic I'm hiring - the one you so insist I hire because I can't tell if a fuse is the real deal or not - will use genuine fuses, rather than what's cheaply available from his parts dealer? Who knows if those parts are safe? I'd take a guess that at least some mechanics have bought parts from "AutoZone" or equivalent when in a pinch.No, the only solution: stop the counterfeiters. Such counterfeited products are tantamount to reckless endangerment or possibly even manslaughter, if they lead to a death. Yet the people who import these products, and the people who make them, are very rarely punished. Forging a safety mark (CE/UL/etc) should be serious crime, not one that many get a slap on the wrist and a voluntary recall for.

author: Derick Freese
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2014, 10:38:27 pm
content: A beater car that I bought for a few hundred bucks came with a box of fuses from a discount imported tools store, Harbor Freight for those in the US. All of them had the same size fusible link inside. I smashed all of them with a hammer so some unsuspecting soul couldn't find a discarded one and try to use it in a pinch.

author: Vito_R
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2014, 10:39:19 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on November 11, 2014, 10:22:05 pmAGREED

author: grumpydoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2014, 10:48:55 pm
content: QuoteI agree with your point but I don't think people have been brainwashed into thinking that they must obtain goods for the least money possible.They have been brainwashed into thinking that they must have lots of material goods - for that way is the path to happiness, or something.Looking for the lowest price is then just a rationalisation, one can get more material goods for a given amount of money if you choose the cheapest.

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2014, 10:50:51 pm
content: Brainwashed? They just don't understand what's different between the cheap and expensive versions, so they decide based on the only factor that theydounderstand. If you think that A and B are exactly the same except that A is cheaper, why would you buy B?

author: denelec
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2014, 11:00:54 pm
content: As Julius Ceasar used to say: "Caveat Emptor"

author: Vito_R
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2014, 11:03:11 pm
content: Quote from: c4757p on November 11, 2014, 10:50:51 pmIt will take re-educating the public to look at more then just the price as a determining factor. Maybe when enough jobs are lost to china or more people lose their lives to unsafe chinese products then people will wake up. I don't know anymore..

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2014, 11:11:31 pm
content: QuoteChina has 70% of the auto spare parts market in the world. So chances are that your BMW runs on Chinese parts, either through OEM or aftermarket.Whether they are fake or not is anyone's guess.

author: grumpydoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2014, 11:11:50 pm
content: QuoteWhat percentage of people genuinely believe that if item B is lower in price than item A it will not also be lower in quality. I'd argue that many people will opt for the cheaper item even if theyknowit is of lower quality.Otherwise why would there be such a ready market in obvious fakes at knock down prices?

author: all_repair
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2014, 11:13:39 pm
content: If I shop at $1 or bargain corner, I expect to get the rejected items. Some maybe comestic problem, some functional, and mostly they are not refundable. You have just proven why is the $1 shop a $1 shop.Super cheap items are no good as the economic cannot make it happened. But the reverse logic that expensive items are good is flawed. Look at the bankers around you.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2014, 11:14:09 pm
content: QuoteYour descriptions of what you know and what you don't know would seem to suggest otherwise.

author: Vito_R
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2014, 11:14:49 pm
content: Quote from: dannyf on November 11, 2014, 11:11:31 pm...."Many of the counterfeit air bags come from China... Last winter, Chinese businessman Dai Zhensong pleaded guilty to importing counterfeit air bags.."http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/news/2012/10/government-warns-about-the-dangers-of-counterfeit-car-air-bags/index.htm

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2014, 11:15:53 pm
content: QuoteAbsolutely.While you don't get a BMW at a Chevy price, paying a BMW price doesn't assure you a BMW.Many "well educated" fools often get caught up in that.

author: wagon
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2014, 02:57:42 am
content: Pay peanuts, get monkeys.

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2014, 04:33:42 am
content: Quote from: wagon on November 12, 2014, 02:57:42 amI would think that for peanuts you'll get elephants.

author: wagon
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2014, 04:44:33 am
content: Quote from: miguelvp on November 12, 2014, 04:33:42 amPossible..... what about 'you get what you pay for'?

author: Vito_R
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2014, 05:12:36 am
content: Quote from: wagon on November 12, 2014, 04:44:33 amProblem is can you actually be sure it is what you think you're getting?

author: CJWarlock
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2014, 06:20:00 am
content: Quote from: macboy on November 11, 2014, 06:53:52 pmI understand you bought them just to test them for the "ratings vs. rality".I wouldn't however buy fuses that look like the ones on the photos, even for test. I've noticed instantly that every fuse has identical thickness of the "blowwire" (I mean a part of electrical path that actualy burns down and by that opens the circuit). Of course I stand to be corrected if I've observed it uncorrectly but I think that this feature should alarm any potential buyer. So, the test would only have the value in determining the real rating of these "fuses", because it's already known visually that these are all the same thickness fuses. Nevertheless, interesting and important warning. Thanx for posting.

author: Vito_R
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2014, 06:31:55 am
content: Yah I'm also going to check my inventory of those automotive blade fuses to be sure I didn't accidentally buy them. I don't want to be responsible for someone's car catching fire one day or my own. This really pisses me off

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2014, 06:37:18 am
content: Quote from: wagon on November 12, 2014, 04:44:33 amI do love peanuts but won't work for just that

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2014, 08:01:03 am
content: Has nothing to do with price, if the same item was priced at $5.- you had the same disastrous result.It is just a scam from a scam artist. Its just numbers, if 0.001% of all people are scamartists than there are 160 scamartists in my country and 10000 in China.

author: GEuser
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2014, 08:13:53 am
content: Quote from: daqq on November 11, 2014, 08:38:00 pmLOL , the post for the end of the year!Good one ....

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2014, 08:33:07 am
content: Quote from: dannyf on November 11, 2014, 11:14:09 pmWhat is your point?I don't think *anyone* could look at these fuses (that is not electrically check them - just a visual inspection) and tell if they are counterfeit.Do you think *you* could? Bear in mind that most of the fuses sold looked just like the real deal - the only giveaway was that the internal wire was the same thickness for all ratings - but that's only obvious if you have a variety to compare. I wouldn't expect to see much difference between 5A and 7.5A fuses either (or 7.5A and 10A, 25A and 30A, etc), making them harder to compare.And please leave the ad hominem attacks at home.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 12, 2014, 08:38:25 am
content: Quote from: tom66 on November 11, 2014, 10:22:05 pmAbsolutely 100% agree with you there!In the case of these fuses, I think anyone who didn't bother to actually (destructively) test them wouldn't have know any different!Dannyf:tom66actually makes several valid points, perhaps you could learn something rather than criticise?

author: fubar.gr
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 12, 2014, 10:15:15 am
content: When I read this tread, I realized I had bought a fuse kit where the fuses looked particularly dodgy.Here's the kit:Notice how the wire gauge in all fuses is practically the same!Also here is a name brand 10Amp fuse side by side with the chinese counterfeit:Notice how thinner the wire is in the name brand one.

author: fubar.gr
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 12, 2014, 10:16:40 am
content: Also the kit comes with this tester that looks like a mains test light. Somebody could easily be confused and stick it in a wall socket.

author: bookaboo
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2014, 11:09:01 am
content: Fubar have you tested these? It could be that these fuses are rife throughout the world.The old "sort by price" attitude of importers strikes again.

author: Towger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2014, 11:55:39 am
content: Quote from: bookaboo on November 12, 2014, 11:09:01 amYou can buy them here in the 'euro' shops, they have "REVS Car Accessories CAR FUSE SET" on the blister pack. 30 fuses will set you back a €1.50. I have a pack in front of me, bought a couple of weeks ago. I never even opened it as they look doggie through the front plastic. The smallest fuse in the pack is 7.5A, the 'fuse wire' looks the same as the 30A fuse.EditLink to wholesalers:http://www.discount-wholesale.co.uk/buy/car-fuse-set-30-pieces_666.htm

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2014, 11:59:42 am
content: Ah, they're not automotive fuses, they are CAR FUSES, they will FUSE your CAR when they don't blow right!

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2014, 12:12:25 pm
content: QuoteAbsolutely.I always get amazed by the number of people who complain about being taken when buying cheap stuff from complete strangers in far away land through unknown channels and of unknown origins and with no recourse.If you walk on the beach frequently, you will wet your feet - someone wise enough said that many moons ago and yet some of us still have trouble comprehending it.We simply cannot hold other people responsible for our own stupidity / ignorance / unwise decisions. We need to grow up and own up to our actions.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2014, 12:18:11 pm
content: Quote from: dannyf on November 12, 2014, 12:12:25 pmIn most cases we're not buying from far away nations but the local automotive supply shop. We're still getting counterfeit goods because the importers are buying the cheap crap.Recently B&Q, a very large "DIY" shop in the UK was caught selling those "£1 iPhone chargers"... absolutely lethal devices, both to the phone & person holding it. Except, they were selling them for £9.99 a piece. You can buy genuine chargers for less! Apparently they sold well over 1,000 units before they were recalled.http://www3.hants.gov.uk/recall-notice-3pin-adapter.pdfJust another FAKE Apple charger slipping into the stream of junk from China - bought by an importer for peanuts and marked up to full retail.Price is no guarantee of quality.

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2014, 12:19:06 pm
content: dannyf, you are aware that thesellersare also people, right? Why shouldtheynot be responsible for anything?Oh, right, because anything done in the pursuit of money is good by definition.

author: saturation
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2014, 12:22:48 pm
content: I've had trouble withlessername brand fuses bought retail for some time.https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/why-is-bk-precision-still-in-business-bk8500-programmable-load-oem-found/msg153308/#msg153308One other source of a problem fuse is a product itself.In some Chinese lesser name or no-name car accessory, IIRC it was a DC-AC converter, the fuse in it was counterfeit and did not blow to spec. Luckily my auto's accessory fuse blew to spec.

author: bookaboo
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2014, 12:29:10 pm
content: Quote from: Towger on November 12, 2014, 11:55:39 amThose certainly don't look good. It doesn't bear thinking about what could happen here, by nature these fuses are likely to be used in a circuit that has developed a fault... the kind of fault that can pop a 20A, 25A, 30A fuse can certainly melt a loom and cause a fire.Whats really worrying is that these things would be brought in massive quantities by an initial importer then shoved round all the motor factors shops. A very messy supply chain. Also its fairly easy for us to spot strange looking fuse wire diameters, not so easy for the average joe.

author: tjb1
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2014, 12:31:34 pm
content: Quote from: dannyf on November 11, 2014, 11:14:09 pmIt's quite funny that you think a mechanic would be able to distinguish a fake fuse from a genuine one...

author: tvtech
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2014, 02:47:04 pm
content: Interesting thread thisThanks for the info Guys

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2014, 03:48:38 pm
content: The 3A fuse would probably fuse at 3kA though, PhotonicInduction style.Chinese wattsare a fraction of standard watts, but Chinese amps - at least for fuses - are several times more.

author: fubar.gr
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 12, 2014, 04:39:46 pm
content: I put one of the counterfeits directly across a car battery and it blew immediately. So I guess they do offer some kind of protection against dead shorts.Now I want to blow them in a more controlled manner. I first tried to blow a name brand 10amp fuse but failed. All I have is a car battery and some 1 Ohm power resistors so I had to improvise. I started with a single resistor in series (12 amps) but nothing happened. I then went to 24 amps and still nothing. The fuse was kept under current for at least 45 seconds each time.I added another 1 Ohm resistor in parallel (36 amps) and after about 5 seconds the fuse filament went red hot, but suddenly the current dropped to 24 amps. One of my power resistors died apparently! The fuse filament was slightly deformed, but in one piece.So tomorrow I will make a simple dummy load with a power mosfet and a trimpot controlling the gate voltage

author: macboy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2014, 05:08:19 pm
content: Quote from: fubar.gr on November 12, 2014, 10:15:15 amMy fuse kit looked nearly exactly the same, down to the crappy voltage tester, but with different branding. Mine however had fuses marked as low as 3 A and up to 30 A. The 3 and 30 A ones are identical. Note how your voltage tester is marked "6-12-24 V"... well, the little bulb inside glows white at 12 V. How well do you think it will work on a 24 V system?

author: macboy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2014, 05:22:41 pm
content: Quote from: amyk on November 12, 2014, 03:48:38 pm