Will a 220v 50HZ rework system work on 220v 60HZ? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: TheBorg
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 02, 2013, 01:02:05 am
content: I bought a used Hakko FR802 unit rated for 220v (european). I'm in the US, so I was planning on just buying a step up transformer (1000-3000w most likely), and using it for the system. But I believe the system only doubles the voltage and doesn't change the hertz of the power. Would the system run fine on 60hz do you think?Also, anyone know how efficient step up transformers are?

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 02, 2013, 01:09:30 am
content: Running a 50 Hz transformer on 60 Hz should be fine. The other way around can sometimes be a problem if the transformer was specced with little margin.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 02, 2013, 01:17:31 am
content: Quote from: TheBorg on November 02, 2013, 01:02:05 amWhat do you mean by "efficient"?Yes, they most likely produce the specified voltage if you stay within their power or VA rating.Do they get warm? Probably.Since the mains voltage in the USA is standardized at 120 V, a voltage doubling transformer may output 240 V. Make sure your device is OK with that (it should be OK based on European voltage ranges, but occasionally there may be issues).Lastly note that step-up transformers are typically auto-transformers. This means the output is not isolated from the input. Most of the time this doesn't matter.

author: TheBorg
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 02, 2013, 01:26:15 am
content: Quote from: IanB on November 02, 2013, 01:17:31 amI just wanted to check if they were like grossly inefficient or some such nonsense I needed to worry about.I'm currently looking at the LR 3000w model, data herehttp://www.litefuze.com/products/lr-series/.The page says the output is grounded all the way through, so I don't think it will be a problem.

author: TheBorg
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 02, 2013, 01:30:28 am
content: Quote from: alm on November 02, 2013, 01:09:30 amAwesome. I was just thinking since it has a pretty decent heating element, maybe 10 extra hz might send a bit too much power than it is rated for. Either way I likely won't attempt to "max it out" heating wise so to speak.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 02, 2013, 01:54:18 am
content: Quote from: TheBorg on November 02, 2013, 01:26:15 amShould be fine as long as you use the proper transformer one (like the LR series) and not the electronic "converting box" one.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 02, 2013, 02:02:20 am
content: Just a note: my comment applied to equipment which transform the mains voltage to a lower AC voltage and then rectify it. If the equipment has components running directly from mains, those might not be so happy with 60 Hz. I'm not familiar with the internal design of this unit. I don't expect any issues with heating elements, since these tend to be pretty resistive. I'm not so sure about the pump, though. If the pump is powered by AC, that could be an issue. Any resident pump experts?Will it be running 20% faster?

author: TheBorg
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 02, 2013, 02:30:49 am
content: Quote from: alm on November 02, 2013, 02:02:20 amI do know it has a second transformer internally. Thishttp://www.ebay.com/itm/Hakko-B3193-Transformer-110-120V-for-FR-802-Rework-System-/200981807539?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2ecb7301b3one is for a 120v system but I assuming the design would be similar in the foreign model (how do I put a link on a word? So much easier). So I am *assuming* that everything converts to DC internally, but it is possible the pump connects directly to AC as you said. The heater is rated at 85 ohms as well, if that would make any difference/signify that things convert to DC somewhere along the line. I'll try to find a pic of the internals somewhere.I just realized this is a mostly Australian forum too (I should've known with the accent....). So I guess I am posting at like 1AM for you guys

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 02, 2013, 02:37:14 am
content: Quote from: alm on November 02, 2013, 02:02:20 amNot sure about the pump in Hakko FR802, but in my older model Hakko 850B, it uses AC pump.

author: TheBorg
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 02, 2013, 02:41:47 am
content: Quote from: BravoV on November 02, 2013, 02:37:14 amThanks! Both a blessing and a curse has this station been, got it for less than $200 USD but it's becoming a pain to get workingYour pump is rated for 60hz as well. Hmm... not sure at this point if I should just try to resell the station or what. The guy who sold it to me was from the US though and it has a Flextronics sticker on it. He tested it on a step up transformer like what I am going to buy but I don't know if it was used consistently like that.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 02, 2013, 03:04:44 am
content: I think it's worth giving a try. I have used 240 V items here in the USA with a step-up transformer. A friend of mine runs a TV and a DVD player on a step-up transformer and they work fine. Few things will really care about 50 Hz/60 Hz. Most things will work without any trouble.

author: TheBorg
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 02, 2013, 03:51:39 am
content: I'm convinced. Just bought the LiteFuze LR-3000 (for a fairly good deal). I'll let all of you know how it works out when I get all my stuffThanks for your quick help!!

author: fluxcapacitor
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 04, 2013, 12:37:00 am
content: Its worth checking the fuses before you plug everything in, the 120V version has a 5A and the 240V has a 3.15A fuse on the unit.Also check the power cord/plug ,just to make sure it hasnt got a 13A fuse in there.

author: TheBorg
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 04, 2013, 12:42:21 am
content: Quote from: fluxcapacitor on November 04, 2013, 12:37:00 amIll be sure to do that. After if everything is alright then I will plug it in and test it just to make sure everything works then take the cover off and check everything inside. Thanks for the tip!

author: TheBorg
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 08, 2013, 03:32:03 am
content: Ok, so I got the unit yesterday, and my power supply is scheduled to arrive monday- heres the catch- they did not send the unit with a power cord (or a handle holder but I'll be DIYing that)So what cord should I get? The unit says 230-240v 50/60hz (which makes me hopeful about the hertz issue). It would seem like I should get just a grounded european adapter, but the unit also has a sticker identifying it as being in Hakko's Singapore/Malaysia/Philippines support region, so should I try to find that type of cord?Either way, I'm planning on attempting to remove the cover and get a look at the insides of this. I'll try to post a teardown with the limited electronics knowledge I have... I'm actually still in high school lol so I don't have any experience in engineering (yet!).Heres a photo

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 08, 2013, 03:42:26 am
content: Generally you'd use a power cord with a plug compatible with your local mains sockets. I wouldn't recommend using a US plug for 230 V, however. So pick whatever grounded plug is convenient for you and is designed for 230 V operation. You would obviously need a matching socket for the isolation transformer.

author: TheBorg
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 08, 2013, 05:26:48 am
content: Ok, now I'm having a hard time finding a grounded socket. It seems I need a "schuko" power plug (the indented version), to have a ground, which the Litefuze LR-3000 does not have. It would seem that getting a europlug cord and a "grounding collarhttp://www.magellans.com/eurosurge-grounding-collar" would perhaps work if all the wiring stays the same? the same.Edit: maybe a british grounded cable would work?Anyone know of a non-schuko grounded 230v plug? I'm getting pretty ticked at this. One issue after another... I shouldn't just use it ungrounded, that ruins the whole ESD safe thing, right?

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 08, 2013, 06:13:09 am
content: Any plug from a 230 V country that fits those sockets would work. BS 1363 (UK plug) looks like it might fit and is a nice solid plug. The Italian CEI 23-16/VII plug might also fit, but is quite flimsy. You may also be able to buy a travel adapter that converts from Schuko (if you have a Schuko cord) to something that fits the transformer. Grounding is important for ESD protection: the point of ESD to have everything at the same potential. Ground is often picked as a convenient potential for this. It's also important for safety. The station looks like IEC appliance class I, which requires less clearance and insulation than class II, but relies on a safety ground to protect the user in case of faults. If a loose wire touches the metal case, for example, it would short the wire to ground and trip the GFCI or breaker.

author: fluxcapacitor
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 08, 2013, 06:58:17 am
content: Quote from: TheBorg on November 08, 2013, 03:32:03 amYou need a british power cord .http://www.amazon.com/SF-Cable-BS1363-1-0mm-H05VV-F/dp/B009ZJ4HXI/ref=sr_1_5?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1383892945&sr=1-5&keywords=uk+plug+leadThat one has a 10A fuse ,so should be changed.We call that type of lead a "kettle lead" in the uk.Then you`ll need a grounded US / europe/uk adapter to go into the LR-3000 .http://www.amazon.com/Ceptics-Grounded-Universal-Plug-Adapter/dp/B0080SE6H2/ref=sr_1_6?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1383893702&sr=1-6&keywords=uk+to+us

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 08, 2013, 07:05:20 am
content: Just use a standard three prong grounded US power cord. It will be perfectly fine at 240 V. Power cord insulation is spec'd way above the normal operating voltage. (Travelers plug US power cords into European power outlets all the time.)

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 08, 2013, 07:16:32 am
content: I would be more worried about some absent-minded person (possibly me after a long night of work) plugging it in a standard 110 V outlet, or switching around cords in the step-up transformer (eg. plugging your 110 V soldering station in the 230 V output). I like to design things so that connectors that would damage when mated don't fit together (without employing advanced fools). The same reason why I hate using 1/8" headpone jacks for DC power, for example. Or using US-style mains plugs for photo flash sync (low voltage signals) as used to be common in US photo studios.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 08, 2013, 08:11:12 am
content: I think plugging a 240 V device into a 120 V outlet would not be damaging to the equipment though?

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 08, 2013, 08:35:06 am
content: That depends. A (poorly designed) SMPS can easily be damaged by excessively low input voltages, since it will attempt to adjust the duty cycle to stay within regulation. Brownouts can definitely lead to damaged equipment, and 120 V is quite a serious brownout for a 230 V device. Equipment with linear power supplies and heating elements are unlikely to be affected, and neither are pumps I'd suspect. But my main issue is that if you start mixing plugs, it becomes much more likely to plug a 110 V device into a 230 V outlet, something that is likely to lead to damage.If I were to introduce the complexity of two different mains voltages in my labs, then I would use very different plugs to make them hard to confuse. Plugging things in often happens without thinking or establishing what's connected to the other end of that cord. I'm sure you've occasionally plugged in the wrong cord and noticed the piece of equipment you wanted to power on doesn't turn on. What if this happens with the step-up transformer? I guess you could also use color coding, but using something like a BS 1363 or Schuko plug is an even more obvious way to distinguish.

author: MrAureliusR
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 08, 2013, 09:06:07 am
content: Quote from: TheBorg on November 08, 2013, 03:32:03 amYou should be - if it says that then you're in the clear. When you say they're sending the unit 'without a cord' which unit are you referring to? Sorry if I'm being thick but it's 4AM.If you happen to live in Canada I'd be happy to give you some help over the phone if you get stuck. D'oh just re-read your first post and you're in the US.Typed using Hacker's Keyboard for Android

author: TheBorg
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 08, 2013, 07:09:05 pm
content: Quote from: MrAureliusR on November 08, 2013, 09:06:07 amD'oh! My bad, the FR802 rework unit I bought shipped without a power cord. I'm assuming that the LR-3000 does have a power cord (USA), but I will find out monday. If not I have quite a few spare US cords lying around.So for the FR802 I am going to get a UK kettle plug. The Litefuze sockets are the universal type, and should accept the UK plug without a problem. Only thing I am wondering about now if UK mains are wired the same so ground and hot wires go to the correct places. Any input on this?I think it would be best to get the UK cord, because for one it is grounded, and secondly it would not be compatible with the 110v sockets at all, so there would be almost no way of mixing it with the 110v plugs, short of using another plug or adapters. I'll make sure to slap a big "230v ONLY" sticker on it to help reduce that chance.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 08, 2013, 07:59:51 pm
content: Beware that the cable exits from the bottom of a UK plug so you need a few inches of clearance below the socket. Since you are in the US you could look into a NEMA 6-20 cord instead. But you'd need to check whether the socket can accept that plug.

author: TheBorg
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 08, 2013, 08:41:43 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on November 08, 2013, 07:59:51 pmNEMA cords would be hard to find to adapt to the connector on the Hakko, and look like they might be pluggable into the 110v socket.Looking at australia cords nowSomething like this from monoprice looks secure enough

author: fluxcapacitor
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 08, 2013, 09:38:52 pm
content: Quote from: TheBorg on November 08, 2013, 08:41:43 pmThey will fit .http://litefuzevoltageconverters.com/ar3000-3000-watt-voltage-regulatorc30003000.html

author: TheBorg
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2013, 03:39:51 am
content: Due to the cable orientation problems with the English/UK cord I've opted instead for an Australian power cord. Should be here by the end of the week. I'll let you guys know how it works, but I'm pretty sure I'm in the clear. Thanks for all your help!

author: TheBorg
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 17, 2013, 03:04:44 am
content: Cord arrived yesterday. There are a few quirks about the power converter (the bezel is a bit broken so the circuit breaker is loose...), but nothing to stop it from working. Plugged it in and it powered on wonderfully! I've used it to try to remove some SMD chips on scrap boards, it works fine, but I'm not sure what temp and air speed to use yet. Been holding out in the 350-390C range, with 15 LPM.In short, it works and I'm happy! Thank you all so much for your help.