Choosing a new scope Rohde-schwarz vs. Rigol vs. Siglent - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: Fonnesbek
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: December 07, 2015, 05:15:21 pm
content: Hi AllMy old tektronix 2465 finally diedit properly has a dead calibration NVRAM, I get a Test 04 Fail 11 on startup and it has a lot of offset on one channel very dependent of v/div.So I think it is time for a new scope, but the BIG question is which oneI have watched a lot of video reviews but can't decide....I think I have narrowed the field down to:Rohde-schwarz HMO compact (HMO1024) 4ch 100Mhz 2Gs/s but only 2,000 wfms/sRigol DS1104Z 4ch 100Mhz 1Gs/s 30,000 wfms/sSiglent sds2000x spec looks good, but what about software ?I lean towards the R&S but am a bit put off by the low wfms/s, but it looks to have the best sw plus it is build in europe.Any advice will be greatly appreciated.ThanksFonnesbek

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2015, 05:49:49 pm
content: Quote from: Fonnesbek on December 07, 2015, 05:15:21 pmThat depends on what you want to do with it and how big your budget is.QuoteWell, it seems the SDS2000X is pretty much a SDS2000 in a nicer housing and with more sample memory, and judging from the latest SDS2000 v2 firmware Siglent has still many bugs to fix.As to buying one: considering that the SDS2000 was thrown on the market approx 18 months ago in a pretty much half-finished state, and even today suffers from various bugs that shouldn't have been in the scope in the first place, I'd be very careful to invest that much money in a new Siglent scope that only just came out and which runs essentially the same firmware as its still buggy predecessor. For fun, just ask how the SDS2000 owners (the ones that aren't also Siglent resellers!) feel about their scopesThe Rigol DS1104z isn't worth the money as you can buy the cheaper DS1054z and hack it to get essentially the same bandwidth. It's a good entry-level scope at a rock-bottom price but like most B-brand scopes it suffers from firmware problems.QuoteDon't be put off, the HMO1024 is a perfectly fine scope. 8k wfms/s isn't much but frankly the whole waveform update debate is pretty overdone anyways. Waveforms/s only became a thing because Agilent/Keysight made it a marketing thing to promote their very fast MegaZoom ASIC.Low waveform rates were a problem back in the old days when digital scopes managed a only few hundred updates per second.BTW, I essentially replaced my SDS2204 with a R&S RTM1054, and that does only 11k or so waveforms/s. It still beats the hell out of the Siglent in terms of reliability, ergonomics and UI.If you can afford it then I'd go for the HMO1024, not only because it very likely will be a much more mature product than the other scopes, but also because of the fact that R&S will stand behind its product. Plus the HMO has some nice features, i.e. DVI out or the component tester.

author: hansan
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: December 07, 2015, 07:47:51 pm
content: Hi Fonnesbek,I am in a similar situation; also looking for a 100MHz 4 channel replacement of my old analogue scope. Your short list could be mine.Quote from: Fonnesbek on December 07, 2015, 05:15:21 pmYou could consider the Instek GDS 2104A or Instek GDS-2104E as well. Is in the same price category as the Siglent and HMO.The GDS 2104E has a lower sample frequency (1GHz / 2GHz), more memory (10Mpt/2Mpt) and a higher frame update rate (120k/s / 80k/s) than the older GDS 2104A, which has a logic analyser and generator option.I would not go for the Rigol DS1104Z; with 4 channels you have only 250Ms/s which is not enough for 100MHz bandwidth; your old scope is much better! I would say it is better to spend less money on the DS1054Z and save some more money for a much better scope (Keysight, Tektronixs, LeCroy, R&S) later on.The HMO is the more costly one (also the options like serial decode and MSO are relative expensive), but probably the most "finished" in its features. When you have the money and / or it is for your work then is this one probably the most reliable choice. Nothing is so annoying as a measurement tool that you cannot rely on.The Siglent is on paper the most value for money, with the risk of a not very mature software / UI. I hope for a review of this SDS2104X to make for myself the choice easier.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2015, 08:48:26 pm
content: Quote from: hansan on December 07, 2015, 07:47:51 pmAs yet there is very little info for the 2000X series and reviews may not come until next year.If you've been watching developments of the SDS2000, the new V2 FW that the new X series uses a variant of is being worked through in this thread:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000-new-v2-firmware/Datasheets and manuals are freely available.SDS2000X series:http://www.siglentamerica.com/pdxx.aspx?id=1488&T=2&tid=1SDS2000 series:http://www.siglentamerica.com/pdxx.aspx?id=25&T=2&tid=1

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2015, 10:48:27 pm
content: Quote from: Fonnesbek on December 07, 2015, 05:15:21 pmIf your budget reaches towards the Siglent SDS2000 you could add a bit more and look at the R&S RTM series or a Keysight 2000 or 3000 series. The latter can be hacked to enable all options which is a big plus IMHO because a sensible options bundle can double the price of an oscilloscope.

author: Fonnesbek
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: December 08, 2015, 11:49:17 am
content: Thanks for all the advise, I must admit that the Rohde & Schwarz HMO compact is properly going to win, I would love a HMO 3000 or RTM2000, maybe I'm going to wait a bit more time and go for the 3000 or RTM.What I like about the R&S:Small sizeDVI output, makes up for the small screenFeaturesWhat I would like to see added:Possibility to generate white and pink noise in the generatorArbitrary waveform generatorHigher wfms/sThanks

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 08, 2015, 12:26:47 pm
content: Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on December 07, 2015, 05:49:49 pmIt'sexactlythe same scope.Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on December 07, 2015, 05:49:49 pmMore expensive 'scopes don't have bugs in the firmware?Rigol is on the case. It's already fixed some bugs pointed out by Dave and there's only a couple of hard-to-reproduce bugs remaining (over 50% of forum members can't even reproduce them).A couple of weeks ago Rigol swapped a brand new new scope with a forum member's so they can see the bug for themselves (apparently they couldn't reproduce it at the factory). A firmware update is expected soon.But yeah, if you've got the money then the HMO is nicer.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 08, 2015, 12:32:30 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on December 08, 2015, 12:26:47 pmNot in this number, and not so many show-stoppers. Big brands(*) are generally pretty good in making sure that the software is pretty mature before releasing a product on the market. Chinese B-brands, not so much.As I said many times, the Rigol DS1054z is a great scope at a rock-bottom price, but don't come under any illusions that the low price means that Rigol doesn't cut any corners, as it's pretty evident by the very long bugs & issues threads for pretty much any Rigol scope (aside from the DS6000 which pretty much no-one buys anyways). You won't find many similar threads for big brand scopes.* with the exception of Tek

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 08, 2015, 12:38:10 pm
content: Quote from: Fonnesbek on December 08, 2015, 11:49:17 amJust to say, there currently are moderately priced RTM1054 with probes on ebay (which is where I bought mine), which depending on your budget could be an alternative. For that money you get 4ch, 500MHz, 5GSA/s and a nice XGA display with a very good UI.QuoteForget built-in AWGs, they aren't worth bothering unless you can get them enabled for free. Even a cheap Siglent SDG1020 outperforms pretty much all of them while costing less than what most manufacturers charge for enabling the option.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 08, 2015, 12:44:01 pm
content: Don't bother with the Rigol DS1104Z, get the DS1054 and hack it to 100MHz.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 08, 2015, 12:55:49 pm
content: Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on December 08, 2015, 12:32:30 pmAll 13 of them?https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1000z-series-%28ds1054z-ds1074z-ds1104z-and-s-models%29-bugswish-list/(And ... assuming they fix the lock-up bug now they have a 'scope which reliably does it, which ones will be showstoppers after the next update?)

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 08, 2015, 01:04:21 pm
content: Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on December 07, 2015, 05:49:49 pmFaster update rate it always better, but not necessarily at the expense of other things that are more useful on a day-to-day basis, like more responsive controls for example, or faster boot time, or better triggering, or better control layout.The Rigol 1000Z for example has decet update rate, but the control response isn't that quick. And it can have annoying selection control overshoot for example.Many (myself included) like the Keysight X series because of its fast and no-nonsense UI, it just works. Not necessarily for the fast(est) waveform update rate.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 08, 2015, 01:21:55 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on December 08, 2015, 12:55:49 pmI don't follow the various Rigol problems threads in detail, but the first post states:This list is for software version: 00.04.02 and 00.04.03 only, with the current hardware (possibly only board 0.1.1).Followed by a list of problems that have been fixed by Rigol. Which is good, but how long did it take to get there after the DS1000z was thrown on the market? Aside from the fact that these bugs should really have been fixed before the scope was released. Which had happened if there was proper software quality control, but if there was then the scope would have been more expensive, so it's a trade-off.Speaking of quality control, it's not rare with B-brand equipment that firmware updates introduce new problems.If that level of product support is good enough for you, fine. As I said, at it's price the DS1054z is a steal, despite the bugs. But don't delude yourself that this is even close to the same standard you'll generally find on big brand scopes.Quote from: EEVblog on December 08, 2015, 01:04:21 pmThat's true, and a very good point: never underestimate the importance of the user interface. If it's lagging or illogical then it's very likely going to drive one mad every time that scope is used.The Keysight DSOX is a good example. I don't like that they are overly simplistic in some areas and that especially with the excessive pricing for the larger variants Keysight is really milking it, but they are really dead simple to operate and does what one expects, no surprises. And that's what a test instrument should do.

author: H.O
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 08, 2015, 02:05:50 pm
content: QuoteGeez, there are too many of these threads already.Not saying Rigol is without issues but really....A) The number of Rigol scopes and Rigol scope users on this forum, compared to any "A brand" might make up for "some" of the exposure (both good and bad of course) they're getting.B) I image that profesionals buying profesional gear for company moneygenerallydon't spend company money posting on a forum if and when an issue is found. Large corporate customers with large budgets buying expensive stuff from manufactuers tends to get a bit more attention from the manufacturer than the average hobbyist spending $500. Hobbyists on the other hand seems to like their 15 minutes of fame whenever they stumble on something that might be an obscure, previously undiscovered, issue and rush rush rush to make a post on EEVBlog.C) There are individuals taking every opportunity they get to over and over repeat how bad the Rigol and anything else Chinese is. It doens't matter if the bug has been fixed a long time ago, it still gets brought up over and over. (Decoding issues on the 2k and 4k being one, clock jitter on the 1054Z being another) and how bad anything and everything they make must be because of it.Don't get me wrong, issues and bugs SHOULD be brought up, it's good and I do believe it helps getting them fixed (like the 1054Z jitter) but EEVBlog is not the manufactures official channels for reporting bugs. Posting bug reports here are a great way of getting them confirmed by other users but not the way to let the manufacturer know about it.The story about reporting a bug to LeCroy and getting an updated firmware with a fix implemented within hours is interesting. I obviosuly don't know any details about the particular issue but I could argue it doesn't instill much confidence in THEIR quality control just "barfing out" a new firmware like that without testing it properly - which I'm sure they couldn't have done in that short timeframe.. Or they might actally have known about the issue for a much longer time and already HAD the fix implemented and the updated firmware "fully tested" - just not "published".I'm not saying Rigol is as good (or bad) as anything else but I bet that IF there were as many LeCroy (or insert favourite brand here) scopes as there are Rigol scopes in the hands of the general EEVBlog public there would've been many more threads about (possible) issues with them as well.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 08, 2015, 02:43:37 pm
content: Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on December 08, 2015, 01:21:55 pmIt's only been on the market for about 1 year, believe it or not. In that time they've had three firmware updates (I think).After the next update I don't think there will be any serious issues left, the only things on that list will be the ones like "dumping entire memory to CSV file is slow".Quote from: H.O on December 08, 2015, 02:05:50 pmYep. The signal to noise ratio is very distorted in these forums.50% (or more!) of the noise is one or two individuals who leap into any DS1054Z thread telling people they shouldn't even consider buying one because of a semi-harmless bug in a function that they'll probably never use.

author: GandalfDerGraue
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 08, 2015, 03:01:27 pm
content: Comparing a Rigol or any of the cheapies to a Rohde and Schwarz or Keysight or whatever Oscilloscope is comparing nuts and apples. You could eat both, nuts and apples. And you can measure with both, cheapies and A-Brand Oszi's, but they're completely different class.If you take into account that an Agilent DSO1004A (60 MHz 4chan DSO, 2GSamples/s) costs about 1500€ and a Rigol DS 1054z (50 MHz 4chan DSO, 1GSamples/s) is at about 400€, the Rigol just delivers a lot more "bang for the bucks". And, of course, the User interface is extremely important, but you can get used to the Rigol interface as well. If you use the Rigol on daily base (which I don't) it won't be any problem for you as well as the agilent would be.There is nothing wrong buying an A-Brand oszi, neither there is no mistake in buying a good cheapie, it's just how much one wants to anc can pay for getting some useful measuring instrument. If it works for you - just buy it, there's nothing wrong with it!

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 08, 2015, 03:03:53 pm
content: Quote from: H.O on December 08, 2015, 02:05:50 pmI agree.QuoteMaybe, maybe not. However, it doesn't need a large number of users to identify bugs, just have a look at the Siglent SDS2000 (another B-brand bug fest). There are very few SDS2000 users on that forum, and even less so if you take out those that are Siglent resellers. Still the bug thread is pretty extensive.In fact, there are certainly a lot more users of say Keysight DSOX2k, DSOX3k or DSO7k on that forum. Still, you don't find any similar threads for those scopes.QuoteThat may be true, however we're not discussing any mid-range or high end scopes here (which as you say are mostly bought by proffessionals and businesses), this is aboutentry level scopes. And pretty much most of that market goes to hobbyists and small businesses (one man shops). And you can be sure that the same hobbyist that complains about bugs on his Rigol would complain the same if there were similar bugs on his Keysight, probably even more because the Keysight costs more money.QuoteMaybe, but you oversee a few things:1.) Chinese B-brands often provide relative little in terms of a version history to find out what bugs are actually fixed and which not. They got better in recent times but it's still not as good as it should be. So it's not always easy to find out what the current status is.2) Not all bugs get fixed, i.e. the stability issues a former colleague has with his DS4054 which affects only the higher bandwidth models and which Rigol ackowledges but has no idea how to fix it. Considering that the DS4054 isn't even cheap (and he's on his 3rd or 4th scope with no improvement) that isn't exactly a stellar achievement.3.) Quite often with Chinese B-brands, firmware updates also introduce new problems which sometimes are old issues that have been fixed before and re-appear, or completely new bugs. Siglent's SDS2000 is a good example of that. That alone gives a very dire view of their quality control.4.) Last but not least, the scope should have never been released with such a massive list of problems in the first place.QuoteTrue, bugs have also been reported to the manufacturer by many scope owners so they should be well aware of them. Both Rigol and Siglent are also known to monitor such threads in this forum (Siglent even participates occasionally).QuoteYou misunderstood. Such short term fixes, for the rare cases they are necessary, are often created and sent out if a customer is affected by a severe problem, and then only to that customer. These usually are problems that only affect a very specific setup in very specific circumstances and therefore are not known to the manufacturer, but when found often a quick fix is developed in the form of an inofficial update which a customer can use to complete the task. The fix then also will find its way into the regular firmware/software updates, which of course will go through extensive testing and quality control.QuoteWell, as I said, there are way more DSOX2k/3k users here than Siglent SDS2000 users, and still there is no similar thread about firmware problems. Nor for any other big brand scope like the old TDS700 Series, all which are far more common on this forum than that the SDS2000 scope.Which shows that the number of bugs in a scope is completely unrelated to the number of forum users owning that scope.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 08, 2015, 03:06:11 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on December 08, 2015, 02:43:37 pmJust curious: what bug is that?

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 08, 2015, 03:14:44 pm
content: Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on December 08, 2015, 03:03:53 pmPerfect software costs money. A cheap 'scope that gets released with a few bugs bugs isn't necessarily bad, so long as the manufacturer is actively participating in forums and fixing things afterwards.If this process offends you: Feel free to pay four or fives times as much money next time around.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 08, 2015, 03:26:47 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on December 08, 2015, 03:14:44 pmAs a former owner of an SDS2204: I had to spend more money to buy an oscilloscope which actually did what the SDS2204 promised to do. I can live with a few bugs and every oscilloscope has shortcomings (even the $100k ones) but there is a difference between a bug which is a minor nuisance and a bug which makes a function completely useless. Besides that Siglent and Rigol have many features which are just checklist items. They are there on paper but totally useless for any real work (FFT, the Eres function in the new SDS2000 firmware, decoding only what is on screen, no measurements when digital channels enabled,etc, etc).@Wuerstchenhund: those R&S RTM series look mighty interesting. Maybe even a better deal then the higher end HMO series.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 08, 2015, 03:38:01 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on December 08, 2015, 03:26:47 pmOK, I'll give you that...(but it's not really a "bug" and it's also true of just about every other type of gadget in the world, eg. nobody expects the cheapest smartphone to have a camera which is as good as one ten times the price, etc.)

author: Alfons
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 08, 2015, 03:48:18 pm
content: The Rigol is basically completely overloaded with features and because it is inevitable that some functions are buggy. This is not feasible in the price. Perhaps Rigol should be Bersch intrigues more on essential functions. I don't need half of the functions of the Rigol, because it is not my only instrument. But it looks like the Chinese are now themselves fiercely competitive and overloading the devices with functions. This is cheap, because all is software. And software on this scale remains vulnerable. Nevertheless, I am very satisfied with the Rigol. I previously knew what to expect. However, it suggests my old Hameg mix-mode oscilloscope in all areas, except in the processing and finish.

author: MT
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 08, 2015, 07:09:55 pm
content: It's all Internet's fault!The immediate channel for software updates was not there between 1983-1995 that now have enabledmanufacturers to apply lameness/lazyness/incompetence/pure-brutal-capitalistic-view on how to makemoney. I.e enabled them to ship unfinished , incomplete, untested firmware

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 08, 2015, 07:38:59 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on December 08, 2015, 03:14:44 pmSure, why not pay for the full scope now and get only say 2/3rd of functionality working, and wait for 6 months, a year or longer to get the missing or half-working functionality implemented. Who could really say no to such an attractive dealQuoteThanks, but I think after my disappointing excursions into the world of B-brands I'll stick with big brand 2nd hand gear and pay just a little bit more than for the B-brand stuff. And frankly, the more people turn to Chinese B-brand the better for me as it keeps 2nd hand prices lowQuote from: nctnico on December 08, 2015, 03:26:47 pmI agree. At less than $2k with probes I think it's a great offer:www.ebay.com/itm/Rohde-Schwarz-RTM1054-500MHz-4-Channel-Digital-Oscilloscope-/371301826075

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 08, 2015, 07:43:08 pm
content: Quote from: Alfons on December 08, 2015, 03:48:18 pmIs it? Don't get me wrong, for the price its great, but at the end of the day in terms of functionality is a pretty standard bottom-of-the-barrel scope. There's not really that much functionality in it, and certainly nothing fancy.Anyways, I don't think that matters much for the DS1054z, just because it's so cheap. I think it does matter for many other B-brand scopes (i.e. DS2000/4000/6000, SDS2000) which are much more expensive.QuoteI guess this is the key.

author: hendorog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 08, 2015, 07:46:57 pm
content: If there was a decent, up to date scope comparison table with pricing maybe there wouldn't be so many threads.Something to think about - could some of the big brand guys would post the prices for their scopes?Some companies put prices on the www, but most generally don't - and apparently they offer decent discounts if you negotiate.Personally I didn't do much research into big brand scopes when I bought mine - for various reasons.I haven't learned anything since which makes me think I missed a bargain, but its hard to know without accurate information.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 08, 2015, 08:16:40 pm
content: Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on December 08, 2015, 07:38:59 pmNow I am seriously tempted! Too bad there are no decoding options enabled on those scopes and they don't seem to ship to the NL.I had to bring my bring-along scope (a Yokogawa DL1740 500MHz/4ch) to a customer yesterday but they dared to pull out a 300MHz Tektronix TDS3000 series to re-measure. The darn Japanese use plastic which looks old after a week and me needing to glue the case back together after an accident involving gravity didn't help either to improve the look. The politics of measurement... -sigh-edit: can the RTM1054's math functions operate on a part of a signal (the part between 2 cursors)?

author: hansan
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: December 08, 2015, 08:24:30 pm
content: There is a rather nice table to start width:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/digital-oscilloscope-comparison-chart/I would also be very much interested on what a good 4 channel 100MHz BW oscilloscope would be in the 1500 Euro range.The prices of the originally mentioned scopes are here in Germany roughly as follows:Hameg HMO1024 1750 EuroSiglent SDS2104 1405 EuroGW INSTEK GDS 2104A 1799 EuroGW INSTEK GDS 2104E 1382 EuroWhich makes the Hameg a good contender.The big names with similar properties (and probably at quite some points better implemented features) are so from my first view quite some more expensive.R&S RTM 2024 3760 Euro (200MHz)Keysight DSOX2014A 2185 EuroTektronix DPO2014B 2677 EuroProbably is it true that the "Chinese" try to put as much features as possible on the check-list to attract people with on top of their price, while the "big names" only put a very few well implemented features into their products.@nctnico; what problems did you had that made you decide to put your SDS2204 away? Was this firmware version V1 or already V2?(fixed the link)

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 08, 2015, 08:25:55 pm
content: Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on December 08, 2015, 07:38:59 pmDon't exaggerate... it's two or three uncommon functions that nobody even noticed for six months.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 08, 2015, 08:32:33 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on December 08, 2015, 08:25:55 pmIn case of the SDS2000 it isn't an exaggeration! More of an understatement...Initially high-res wasn't working at all and averaging was useless; in the new firmware both have been implemented in a half-assed buggy way.

author: Alfons
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 08, 2015, 08:32:57 pm
content: Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on December 08, 2015, 07:43:08 pmI still belong to those, who have learned, based on the split screen to determine values. If I want to have it more precisely, I use also still other devices. I find it convenient, to see setting on the screen, but do not need the 100 readings, which can be show. Similarly, I do not need any TFT, that is based on 8 bits. What shoud that? Game Play? Maybe they build in yet soon a game for a break? Power is likely to run smoothly indeed a 3D shooter.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 08, 2015, 08:33:50 pm
content: The R&S looked nice in this video:I don't know if there's a model that matches your needs.Quote from: Alfons on December 08, 2015, 03:48:18 pm...and that R&S isn't?

author: hendorog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 08, 2015, 08:50:45 pm
content: Quote from: hansan on December 08, 2015, 08:24:30 pmThanks, I should have looked harder. I fixed up the link, should work now.Based on that, the DS4k looks like an absolute bargain. No wonder it appears on so many threads as a purchase option.However that table doesn't show the discounts which have been mentioned. I wonder what is typical?

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 08, 2015, 08:53:03 pm
content: Quote from: hansan on December 08, 2015, 08:24:30 pmnctnico AFAIK sold his SDS2000 before V2 FW was released.

author: nfmax
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 08, 2015, 08:57:33 pm
content: Quote from: hansan on December 08, 2015, 08:24:30 pmAlways keep an eye out for bargains. It's probably still a step above your budget, but last year I picked up an ex-demo Agilent MSOX-2024A, with every option enabled, the full set of probes, freshly calibrated and with full 5 year warranty (the 'Certiprime' option from Keysight) from a UK Keysight distributor for £1970.10 + VAT. There is life beyond eBay!Max

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 08, 2015, 09:07:13 pm
content: Quote from: hansan on December 08, 2015, 08:24:30 pmFirmware V1 but from the looks of it V2 isn't much better so I'm still happy I got rid of it. So far many of the issues I reported here and to Siglent have not been explored by people who still own an SDS2000. My list with isssues I mailed to Siglent at the beginning of this year:- High resolution mode absent- The averaged signal (thin trace) dissapears in 'stop mode' and gets replaced by a 'furry' non-averaged trace; not useful because it doesn't allow to freeze an averaged signal and do measurements with the cursors.- Protocol decoding only decodes what is on screen. Zooming in on a stream of messages by changing the timebase doesn't work and the zoom function is disabled. This makes protocol decoding practically useless for looking at malformed 'bits' and/or zooming in on parts of a message.- Protocol decoding doesn't work on digital channels. Having protocol decoding on digital channels was one of the reasons for me to buy the SDS2204 (someone from Siglent confirmed decoding would work on digital channels on EEVblog).- FFT is not useful without post-processing like averaging to clean up the signal. Also 1024 points are not enough.- The cursors work terrible in version 1.1.37.2 (they go through the sequence of x1, x2, x1+x2, y1, y2, y1+y2).- No measurements while decoding- No zoom for digital signals- Peak-detect doesn't work in roll mode- SCPI over LAN doesn't work which makes the LAN connection useless. I tried sending commands over the LAN but the oscilloscope doesn't respond to commands requesting waveform data.- Sometimes the colors of the 4 analog channels all turn yellow. Changing modes eventually fixes that.- Over all the functions are hard to combine like zoom & digital, zoom & protocol decoding, measurements & digital, measurements & decoding, etc.- Triggering on a CAN ID doesn't work- Decoding is disabled on slow sweeps (even though there is enough memory to do meaningful decoding due to the high samplerate)Note how some of the release notes from the V2 software look remarkably similar!

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 08, 2015, 10:19:44 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on December 08, 2015, 08:25:55 pmThat depends on the scope. It's certainly true for my SDS2204, and for the DS6104 of a former colleague of mine. He and another colleague also have a DS4054, and while the ratio there has improved a lot there are still some stability issues which Rigol seems unable to fix.At the end of the day all these scopes are a play of Waiting for Godot. You have to decide yourself if you want to wait for problems to be fixed eventually. In case of the DS1054z that may have been somewhat quicker, in terms of the (not that cheap) SDS2000 it's still pretty much still major unfinished business.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 08, 2015, 10:20:37 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on December 08, 2015, 09:07:13 pmNo, it isn't. The UI has improved quite a bit but it still contains various silly bugs.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 08, 2015, 10:29:54 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on December 08, 2015, 08:16:40 pmThey ship pretty much everywhere even if it's not listed (they'll change the auction if necessary). Just send them a message.As to decoding, it would be interesting to ask how much R&S charges for them but apparently with some luck they might enable them for free (which they seem to do on occasion).QuoteI hear you. Some of our customers get a strange look if an instrument doesn't look the part. Looks matter too often unfortunatelyQuoteGood question, I honestly don't know (I almost never use cursors). Have you checked the manual?http://www.rohde-schwarz.nl/file_19944/RTM_UserManual_en.pdfI'm too lazy to check but I wouldn't be surprised if it does what you want. Hell, this thing even has a Z input!

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 08, 2015, 10:42:34 pm
content: Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on December 08, 2015, 10:29:54 pmFrom a pricelist I have found it seems each decoding option (I2C/SPI, UART and CAN) costs around 1000 euro (yes: one thousand!). That is expensive for a scope in this pricerange.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 08, 2015, 10:45:02 pm
content: Quote from: hendorog on December 08, 2015, 07:46:57 pmThere's a table which some member started, not sure how accurate it is (last time I checked I found a few errors). Prices are probably outdated, too.QuoteSure, but what for? Prices are often volatile and can vary by months or season, or moon phase. It also depends on what you're looking for.Nevertheless, this is what I wrote inanother threadthat went into a similar topic:Just to give you an idea, a while ago I bought a second hand LeCroy WavePro 7300A which was made in 2008:http://www3.imperial.ac.uk/pls/portallive/docs/1/7293022.PDFThat's 4Ch 3Ghz 20GSa/s scope with 48M memory. Mine came also with all the options, and as you can see the option list is quite long. If I remember right in 2008 the scope alone was around $35k, and the options would have added roughly another $100k on top of that.Last year that scope cost me around $5k. If I wanted warrant then I could buy say 3yr warranty for it from LeCroy and would be at around $7k for the whole package.Another forum member very recently bought a LeCroy refurbished WaveRunner 104MXi (4Ch 1GHz 10GSa/s) for around $3600, and this one also came with (almost) all available options:https://www.atecorp.com/ATECorp/media/pdfs/data-sheets/LeCroy-Waverunner-Xi_Series_Brochure.pdfIf I remember right it also came with LeCroy warranty.And thanks to the fact that LeCroy has not changed its probe interface (ProBus) since the '90s there's a really large range of probes to choose from, and because they don't carry the "Agilent" or "Tektronix" label 2nd hand ones are often dirt cheap (i.e. I bought a HPF1000 (1Ghz active probe) for around $130 or so)That's however not very relevant to the OP who was looking for an entry level scope. It just shows that there are bargains out there.QuoteForget 2nd hand traders ("remarketers"), they're mostly rip-offs asking insane prices even for pretty much worthless gear. That $5k scope above would have cost me more than $10k from a remarketer, and that without any options.Generally the best bet are auctions. Ebay, or if you're willing to take more risk than some of the industrial liquidation auctions.QuoteDepends on what you need. If all you want is a standard entry level scope then it's difficult to find something reasonable in the 2nd hand market. If you want something more advanced, though, that's a different story.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 08, 2015, 10:48:47 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on December 08, 2015, 10:42:34 pmWell, it's a German manufacturer, so of course it's expensiveBut on a more serious note, the list prices for similar options for Keysight or Tek scopes aren't often much cheaper, really. It's just that pretty much no-one pays asking price for that stuff.Maybe I should ask R&S for a quote for the options.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 08, 2015, 11:34:03 pm
content: To all those criticising Chinese software: US companies also have released buggy software which should've been fixed before it going on sale: look at Microsoft for example.I have two Chinese 'scopes (the Rigol DZ1054Z (hacked of course) and Owon SDS7102V (with battery and VGA)) and both represent good value for money. I'd rather have a 'scope with over 10M of memory, 1Gs/s , a decent full colour display and have to put up with a few bugs, than an old brand-A 'scope with hardly any memory and a crappy monochrome display.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 09, 2015, 06:22:27 am
content: Quote from: Hero999 on December 08, 2015, 11:34:03 pmNo-one said US companies never released buggy software. But there's a pretty big difference in LOC between Windows and the simple firmware of a low end scope.QuoteNo-one suggested otherwise.QuoteUnderstandable, but no-one suggested to buy a Tek scopeNone of the alternatives suggested have "hardly any memory" or "crappy monochrome dislays".Quote from: blueskull on December 09, 2015, 01:37:01 amI'm not sure what you mean by "winning", that's not a competitionIf you can show that my arguments are wrong then do so, "Chinese stuff is great because I'm Chinese" and sugar-coating major issues doesn't cut it, sorry.

author: hendorog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 09, 2015, 07:28:12 am
content: Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on December 08, 2015, 10:45:02 pmSure, but what for? Prices are often volatile and can vary by months or season, or moon phase. It also depends on what you're looking for.To get an idea about what the list price vs the actual sell price is for brand name scopes. eg The table shows RRP.Ultimately everyone needs to do their own research, but it would be easier for some if they knew RRP less 15% was typical.Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on December 08, 2015, 10:45:02 pmYou really don't want to go there

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 09, 2015, 07:40:11 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on December 09, 2015, 06:27:43 amThe problem is, most people do care about to get the cheapest things with best hardware and can live with bugs. It is just a trade between your time and money.If one uses the most functions all the day, why not get a bug free one? But most people are not that demanding like you, that's why there is a market for cheap buggy but powerful scopes.I don't disagree with you on any of what you wrote above.However, my point was not that a the cheap scopes like the DS1054z are never a good buy. Hell, at that price, it is a good buy no matter the bugs (I wouldn't say that about more expensive Rigol scopes, though). My point is simply that if you have a bit bigger budget then there are other alternatives which give a bit more maturity, reliability, functionality and support.Obviously there's a trade-off, which is the higher price tag.At the end of the day, it's about making an infomred decision. And that is much easier if a buyer is aware of all the available options and their respective upsides and downsides.Wouldn't you agree?

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 09, 2015, 08:00:52 am
content: Quote from: hendorog on December 09, 2015, 07:28:12 amI understand. For new stuff that's not too difficult, but if you go 2nd hand then that's a whole other story, as prices can vary dramatically.QuoteIt depends on what scope you buy (the more expensive it is the more leeway there is in general) but I'd say 10% to 15% below RRP should always be possible for a big brand scope. For bigger scopes discounts can often be in excess of 25% (even >40% is not unheard of, although it's pretty rare), but that's mostly limited for upper mid-range and high end scopes.In general, discounts for models that sell well are lower than for models that don't, so sometimes say after discounts the 500MHz model isn't necessarily more expensive than say the 200MHz variant.As to where to buy, I try to avoid resellers like a plague and buy directly from the manufacturer, at least for big brand kit (this doesn't work for B-brands because they tend to work solely through their seller network). Resellers want to make a profit while providing little benefit if all you want to do is buy a scope, and rarely can offer anything better (or even close to) what you can get from the manufacturers directly.Often there's also the chance to get some demo scope (which tend to come with many or all available options) for a good price as well.But at the end of the day what you can get depends say 2/3rd on how good you can haggle and 1/3rd on luck.QuoteAs a German I say: Bring it on!!!But seriously, R&S' RRPs aren't exactly cheap, and often more expensive than its competitors. That doesn't mean you have to pay RRP, though.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 09, 2015, 06:26:57 pm
content: Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on December 08, 2015, 10:48:47 pmAt least Keysight options can be liberated so getting a Keysight scope as an extra scope seems even more appealing than a R&S or Lecroy. Anyway I asked the R&S office in the NL for a price for the decoding options. Lets see what they come up with. Actually I don't get why the decoding features have to be so expensive. Compared to the amount of work that goes into writing oscilloscope firmware a decoder just takes 1% extra effort (I have written I2C and SPI decoders for a logic analyser so I have some hands on experience).

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 09, 2015, 07:26:20 pm
content: People buying Tek and Rigol doesn't mean it is a good buy. If you just want to look at signals then about any oscilloscope will work. The difference is in the more advanced options and measurement / math abilities.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 09, 2015, 07:41:08 pm
content: Quote from: blueskull on December 09, 2015, 07:11:29 pmThey're not stupid, but if we're honest they're not exactly relying on these scopes to bring new product to market, or anything else that costs a lot of very real money, are they? Chances are high that they simply bought from a brand they knew and which feels familiar to them.The education sector is a different world. Plus it benefits from vastly deflated prices, which Tek uses to get their stuff out there because outside the education market less and less people buy Tek - and that is for a reason! It helps that many schools and universities just buy from the same vendor they always bought from, as long as the price is low enough.QuoteSo when at this forum we have at least(!) a dozen or so Rigol proponents, plus around the same number Keysight proponents, plus a handful of Siglent proponents, most tripping over themselves to push a newcomer towards their favorite brand, but when I show people some alternatives that few even thought about then this is "intrusively advertised"?Seriously???

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2015, 12:46:04 am
content: I've been browsing around a bit and the GW Instek 2000E series doesn't look bad either. Lets see if the local dealer wants to give me one on loan

author: hendorog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2015, 05:36:34 am
content: Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on December 09, 2015, 08:00:52 am

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 10, 2015, 06:21:25 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on December 10, 2015, 12:46:04 amI know that in today's online world, most people want through reviews and community consensus etc before they buy sight unseen. But nothing beats simply having a hands-on play and seeing if you like something.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2015, 09:40:08 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on December 10, 2015, 06:21:25 amThere is a GW Instek GDS2204E coming my way so I'll see how the Taiwanese do at making oscilloscopes soon.

author: Fonnesbek
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: December 12, 2015, 02:06:35 pm
content: Just a short update, I have been in contact with the local Rhode&Schwarz branch and they have a demo hmo1024 and there is a nice discount on the scope.What worries me a little is the slow waveforms/s plus the model is sort or the original Hameg scope, the datasheet and manual is hard to find on Rhode&Schwarzs webpage but very easy to find if you do a search for Hameg hmo1024.The model is more expensive (list price) then the "new" hmo1102 series, which is only 2 channels but has higher wafeform/s, 10000 if I read the datasheet correct vs. 2000 of the hmo1024.Hires on the 1102 is 16 bit vs 10 bit on 10241 GS/s vs 2 GS/sShould I wait and buy a Agilent msox/dsox 2000 at double the cost, or am I being blinded by datasheet specs.I haven't had hands on experience with either the r&s or the Agilent, I have seen the Agilent in real life and it looked very nice and fast.I'm primary going to use the scope for analog audio design and measurement and a little micro controller design.So the low noise converter an 1mv input of the r&s looks nice, but ?I'm not trying to start a religious war, I'm just looking for good advice and hands on experience.The rtm1054 also looks nice, but shipping and tax + vat almost doubles the price, event though it is still a good deal.ThanksSent from my iPad using Tapatalk

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2015, 03:26:34 pm
content: If the GDS2204E turns out to not be a good choice I'll probably get an Agilent/Keysight DSO2k series. At least you can liberate the options on those. A downside is the short memory though. I also have a 4 channel Agilent DSO 7k scope with 8Mpts. But those 8MPts are shared between 2 channels and because the scope uses double buffering they are cut in half again (unless when in single acquisition mode). So those 8MPts get reduced to 2MPts in most usage scenarios. Since the DSOX2k series has 1Mpts (maximum) that probably reduces to 250kPts in most regular use scenarios.Edit: The RTM1054 would be nice if it had the options enabled or was hackable but that is likely not going to happen so the price is just too high if you can only use it to look at signals.edit2: typosedit3: R&S never got back to me about buying the software options for the RTM1054. That also answers the question about their customer support.

author: markce
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2015, 11:49:53 pm
content: QuoteI had a similair case with Hameg when buying my first DSO. Had the impression they do not value private customers very much. I ended with Rigol, low price, less risk. Worked out quite well. 2nd one now also is a Rigol.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2015, 09:10:13 am
content: Quote from: markce on December 12, 2015, 11:49:53 pmThe thing is... I'm business customer!

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2015, 10:31:41 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on December 12, 2015, 03:26:34 pmQuote from: markce on December 12, 2015, 11:49:53 pmThat's definitely not great. Unfortunately the support one gets is also down to the support staff in your country. Since you both seem to be located in the Netherlands I guess that at least some of R&S' support staff there don't seem to be doing their job (or you both had the "luck" to get to the same lazy bastard). But in any case it's not acceptable.I myself can't complain (the UK, GER and US support is pretty good in my experience, although a bit slow on occasion, and especially the German staff seems to be quite friendly towards hobbyists that use older R&S gear) but at the end of the day that doesn't help much if the support that's provided in your country isn't up to scratch.It might help to complain with the German headquarters. Alternatively, complain via their Twitter channel and tell them that you were considering R&S but now buy something else because their support can't be arsed to reply to a simple question. The advantage of Twitter is that it's public and everyone can read it, which puts quite a bit of pressure on a business to get things changed/fixed or lose face.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2015, 11:10:31 am
content: Maybe this could be a good subject for a new sticky thread: in which country you can get good support for a particuler test equipment brand.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2015, 12:59:02 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on December 13, 2015, 11:10:31 amThat's a very good idea!

author: owiecc
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2015, 01:06:46 pm
content: Hameg used to have a bargain area on their website. You could buy ex-demo stuff with huge discounts. They also very often had good promos on the options. I got HOO10 (I2C, SPI, UART/RS-232 decoding from analog and digital lines) for free. Students used to get very nice discounts too. As far as I can remember you could get all the options and the digital pod with ~90% discount. So ask around. Maybe these discounts are still available.I had a good experience with Hameg's support. I emailed them few bugs I found and they were all fixed in the next firmware.

author: nowlan
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 14, 2015, 06:25:16 am
content: I made a price enquiry when the new R&S branded models first came out.I got a support ticket acknowledgement saying it had been referred to local distributor, who got back to me the next day.

author: Fonnesbek
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: December 16, 2015, 11:35:14 am
content: Update:I have just ordered a keysight dsox 2004a with full software bundle.They offered a ok tradein discount for my tektronix 2465 and I got the software bundle for free.So why did I chose the keysight:A list brandBetter warranty 5 vs 2Waveform capture rate, keysight beats the hameg many times when the mem upgrade and segmented memory was includedControls sepperate for all 4 channelsHands on experience with the keysightThe price of the keysight was almost the same as the hameg about $50 more for the keysight.But I didn't get the MSO upgrade which was included with the hameg, I can always upgrade at an extra cost when I need it, but I will probberly get a Saleae Logic 16 instead, 16 channels and better/easier to use.Thanks

author: Fonnesbek
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: December 16, 2015, 03:33:24 pm
content: I havn't been able to check noise level on the scopes, but from what I read the hmo claim to have the lowest noise level, below 500uV.I was offered a loan unit from keysight but not from Rohde-schwarz, the hmo I was offered was a demo unit the keysight is new off the shelf, not that it matters much to me, but I don't think that they would let me extend the warranty on a demo unit.My choice has been made, which was very hard, now I cross my fingers and hope it was the right choice for my needs.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2015, 09:55:43 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on December 12, 2015, 03:26:34 pmWell, complaining to the R&S German head office helped and I finally got a quote. Over 3k euro for SPI, I2C, UART, CAN and LIN decoding for the RTM1054Well.. that is not going to happen. Even Keysight has a better deal for a software option bundle for the DSOX2k en DSOX3k (around 1100 euro to enable most options including the waveform generator)!