The russians have better rocket engines - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: rbola35618
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2013, 06:30:45 am
content: Video showing the developement of the N1 Rocket engine which are most efficient in the worldThose Russians are great rocket engine designers.

author: nukie
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2013, 11:29:22 am
content: Thanks great bed time video!

author: WBB
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2013, 04:23:41 pm
content: Nice videos but... 4 launches resulting in 4 failures. Where is the efficiency?

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2013, 05:06:02 pm
content: Each failure is further up into space. Incremental improvements in design have resulted in a very reliable launch vehicle. The Progress/Soyuz launchers are the most successful launch vehicle around, having been refined after literally hundreds of launches to a quite reliable unit.Not bad for a vehicle comprised of millions of parts, all of them critical, and where the majority are such that failure results in a mission total loss. Same failure rate as the USA, just for under 1 percent of the cost.

author: WBB
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2013, 05:45:37 pm
content: Quote from: SeanB on January 10, 2013, 05:06:02 pmActually, the first launch made it father up into space than any of the subsequent launches. As for cost, the Russian program was much cheaper than the US program, in financial terms. Many Russians paid the price for that, with their lives.I don't mean to discount the Russian technology, it is certainly a great achievement. Just consider that with so many things that could possibly go wrong with each mission, giving up efficiency in favor of additional reliability shouldn't be taken lightly.Those Germans weren't so bad either. They built a gas guzzler, but it got the job done!

author: Bored@Work
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2013, 06:16:23 pm
content: Both the Russians (a bit disorganized) and the Americans (Operation Paperclip) got a big boost from former Nazi rocket scientists, technicians, and field crews. And the British had a hand or two in it, too.It is generally believed the Americans managed to get more out of it than the Russians.Independent of how much they got out of it, they all indirectly benefitted from the atrocities of the Nazis, and the all tried to cover it up.

author: aluck
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2013, 02:48:10 am
content: Quote from: WBB on January 10, 2013, 05:45:37 pmWhat are you talking about?

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2013, 06:40:36 am
content: More dead Heroes in Russia, as opposed to the dead astronauts who died in the Apollo 1 fire and the 2 shuttle failures.

author: poodyp
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2013, 08:23:24 am
content: Quote from: SeanB on January 11, 2013, 06:40:36 amAccording tothisthere have been 7 Russian space related deaths, three of which weren't really space related (plane crashes and test chamber fire), compared to 12 from the 2 shuttles alone.

author: bullet308
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2013, 10:22:17 am
content: Well, the US never had to deal with anything quite like this:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nedelin_catastrophehttp://www.liveleak.com/view?i=e0d_1230842002Not directly related to manned space flight, but...

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2013, 01:53:43 pm
content: There are a lot of Russian space related deaths that have officially never happened.............

author: Rick
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2013, 03:26:33 pm
content: I suppose that it should be Soviet space related deaths.The quality of the Russian rocket technology and the safety issues are not interrelated. One may also argue about their production methods and the recent failures which are the result of the quality of the production and systemic problems in their production.

author: ftransform
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2013, 03:55:37 pm
content: Those soviet engines are probably made of cardboard.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2013, 04:25:54 pm
content: Ever driven a Lada? Drives like a tractor, noisy as anything and everything rattles. But you can fix it with a hammer and a bit of the nearest fence, and it will keep on running. Russian design is based on the " it works, don't mess with it Ivan" philosophy. May not have fancy things like electric windows, but can be relied on to start after being in -30C overnight.Old joke, why does a Trabbie have a heated rear window? So your hands don't get cold push starting it.My late friend Pierre had a Lada, and used to go on serious 4x4 trails with it. His philosophy was that it was a lot less tears if you rolled a $5000 Lada with you inside than a $100 000 Land cruiser, and you could just climb out when the dust stopped, roll it back on the wheels and carry on. Land Bruiser would need a tow and massive repair, Lada was light enough to push by hand and you could use a brick to remove the worst dents.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 11, 2013, 10:00:34 pm
content: I think the whole point here was about more testing and learning from real failures than "on paper" designs

author: aluck
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 12, 2013, 03:13:26 am
content: Quote from: SeanB on January 11, 2013, 01:53:43 pmI heard the same about NASA (or, should I say, DoD?) early days. I believe that all of those are just rumors born out of Cold War secrecy.

author: aluck
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 12, 2013, 03:34:38 am
content: Quote from: SeanB on January 11, 2013, 04:25:54 pmI have had TWO Lada 4x4 (formerly known as "Niva", but this brand was sold to Chevrolet several years ago). It is not comfortable at all. Not very reliable, but never broke down completely. You HAVE to have a toolbox in your trunk. Maximum speed is claimed about 120 kph, but I would never go above 90 - there are no airbags, nor fancy ABS/ESP.Actually, it's design is 90% unchanged since 1970's, when it was first presented. 8% of those changes are on engine (injector instead of carb, Euro-3 and all), and the rest 2% are completely cosmetic.On the bright side, it's THE best car for hunters/fishers/emergency service. It is officialy used in several countries as an emergency service car (I reckon Switzerland, Czech Republic, Brazil...)Also, it is heavily used in The Army. Up to 2005 after buying a Lada you had to pay a visit to a local Army office - even in a private property, it was considered half-military vehicle, and they wanted to know who owns them to actually RECRUIT those Lada's in case of something bad happens.Sold my last Lada just three months ago. The quality of body metal is a complete shit. Mine was just 5 years old, and it had A LOT of corrosion. I used it only for hunting, so it rested in my garage 8 months a year. Finally, I decided to sell it before corrosion went so bad that I wouldn't be able to sell it at all. Previously I've had a pre-2000 make, and it was so much better by means of body metal.P.S. I had to rope Mitsubishi L200, RAV4 and several over so-called "SUVs". Never had any problems, no matter what. Miss that Lada a little bit.P.P.S. Hopefully that story will tell your a lot about our technology.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 12, 2013, 05:25:11 am
content: You keep the toolbox in the engine bay, along with the spare tyre, the high lift jack, the starter handle, the wooden blocks for jacking, the spare parts and you still have room in there.........Only vehicle I have seen where you can climb in to work on the engine.......

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 12, 2013, 01:03:18 pm
content: Quote from: aluck on January 12, 2013, 03:34:38 am+1. I have several friends that had Ladas and the quality was really so-so. However, they can do 120kph downhill (I've seen that)...Quote from: aluck on January 12, 2013, 03:34:38 amOff-road is a big thing in Brazil, therefore the Nivas are still maintaining their resale value. However, you don't see widespread use of Nivas in emergency services anymore. If they are still in use, probably they are at remote places - not because of choice, but lack of money to buy something else...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lada#BrazilQuote from: aluck on January 12, 2013, 03:34:38 amIn Brazil corrosion is only a problem in seaside areas (we don't have ice or freeze, thus no salt on roads), therefore this issue was not too severe there (and there is why there are still Nivas running around there).Quote from: aluck on January 12, 2013, 03:34:38 amToyota sold their 1960'sLand Cruiser J40in Brazil well until the 90's and Land Rover sold their "tin can"Defenderup until early 2000s, and both were war tanks. Unfortunately I think only the lucky South Africans are able to buy the real deal nowadays... L200s and RAV4s are no match for these cars.

author: Kremmen
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 12, 2013, 01:40:15 pm
content: Quote from: Bored@Work on January 10, 2013, 06:16:23 pmCan't say about every German rocket scientist, but AFAIK and remember history, von Braun wasn't a nazi at all. Purely officially maybe so, to be able work on the rockets because Adolf was fixated on this revenge thing and that was part of official nazi agenda. Von Braun however just wanted to fly into outer space and din't give a rat's ass about nazi ideologies.

author: Tuomas
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 12, 2013, 03:12:14 pm
content: Quote from: Kremmen on January 12, 2013, 01:40:15 pmI believe that is excatly how it was.Not everyone was very understanding of that, though, and it was a matter of some controversy.Here's an excellent piece of satire from that period of time by Tom Lehrer:

author: Bored@Work
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 12, 2013, 04:59:12 pm
content: Quote from: Kremmen on January 12, 2013, 01:40:15 pmVon Braun was an SS officer with the rank of Sturmbannfuhrer. The Americans, as part of Operation Paperclip made a lot of information about his SS involvement vanish. And course he used the standard German excuse of knowing nothing.But it doesn't matter much what motivated him, if he was a Nazi by heart or "only" wanted to fly to outer space. To get his precious rocket developed and build approximately 20000 prisoners out of 60000 prisoners of KZ subcamp Dora had to died.For me von Braun isn't a hero or a great engineer or a scientist, 20000 death speak against him.

author: bullet308
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 12, 2013, 05:15:18 pm
content: Quote from: aluck on January 12, 2013, 03:13:26 amWe are in a poor position to hide the deaths of people like that. Some Soviet cosmonauts in photos of the period were airbrushed out of existence without explanation, but chances are at least as good that they were removed from the program for administrative reasons rather than died and then had same covered up.There have been enough well documented fatalities in both programs...Soyuz 1, Soyuz 11, Apollo 1, STS Mission 51L, STS-107, a variety of training accidents in Apollo, MOL, and the Soviet program, and we will loose somebody one day on ISS. its pretty much inevitable. Space is a difficult place to get to and a harsh place to be.

author: Kremmen
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 12, 2013, 06:29:08 pm
content: Quote from: Bored@Work on January 12, 2013, 04:59:12 pmYes, obviously. In his position he certainly had to be a part of the machine, anything else would hardly have been possible under the totalitarian regime.QuoteI am not setting him on a pedestal in any way. I see him as a driven man that happened to live during a time that did not give a person very many options. Either be part of the rulers or be part of the downtrodden. He chose the side of the rulers because it was the way to attain his obsession. I am quite sure he knew where the labor came from, hardly plausible that he didn't. It does not make him a hero but neither does it mean he was personally responsible. I don't claim to know very much about von Braun's personal history. What i know of the general history of the 3rd Reich (for the definitive intro, read William Schirers's "The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich"), nazi Germany was a totalitarian state where nobody was safe, however highly placed. So it is no wonder if you find them paying lip service to the ideology, and being very careful not to rock the boat. Again, i don't wish to defend anyone but at the same time i am convinced that if von Braun had been very vocal opponent of the slave labor, we would just discuss another name that ran the rocket program in Peenemünde.Hitler sure committed a number of atrocities seldom seen in history, but don't forget that he wasn't the only one. Carpet bombing Germany and nuking Japan qualifies as well, they were just not racially motivated. A life is a life, however.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 12, 2013, 10:24:57 pm
content: Quote from: Kremmen on January 12, 2013, 06:29:08 pmTimes never change do they

author: rbola35618
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2013, 02:32:37 am
content: I posted these videos to show that there many ways to skin a cat. The Russians use what I think would be positive feedback, by reusing some of the unburned exhaust back into the chamber. This is not used in western rockets because the pressure builds up and may cause an explosion. I see it ironic that Electrical engineers use positive feedback to make oscillators. These Russian engineers used positive feedback to increase the rocket efficiency and control the positive feedback to avoid explosions. They perfected these rockets not by using computer to design their rockets but used many iterations until they got it right.I supposed that if they had had the computers that the west has, would they have arrived to the same solution?

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 13, 2013, 07:40:02 am
content: is it positive feedback ? I think it is just making the most of what you have, if you know your throwing out unburned fuel and loosing the power it makes sense to recover it, although this seems to complicate the design but then there is never free cake

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2013, 08:49:48 am
content: They were pushed to go for efficiency by orbital mechanics. Florida is pretty much on the equator, where you get a very useful gain from the surface speed of the earth, making it easier to achieve orbit. The USSR had no such luxury, they needed the extra efficiency to just make orbit. They also have a lot of territory at high latitudes, so a lot of the launches are to a polar orbit, and into an extreme elliptical one as well, so that they can get reliable coverage, although they had to have steerable antennas to track the satellites, but could get reliable comms over the whole country from a relatively low number of satellites in non geosynchronous orbits.orbits were such that they could make use of nearly 90 minutes of the satellite in a 120 minute orbit.