China Bashing - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Phil1977
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2024, 06:45:26 am
content: Probably there are already threads of this kind, but anyhow, a comment in another thread really made me feel something here is going stupidly wrong:QuoteOf all forums I know this is one of the smartest. It seems most of the time valid reasonable thoughts win here and the rest of the time it´s just fun. But what nationalistic ideology drives so many people to this china bashing?More or less all goods on the world market have parts or materials originating in China. It doesn't matter if you buy a US- or German car or an air-plane, in the end a big percentage of safety critical components comes from China. The suppliers there are under strict supervision from their clients all over the world and practically deliver the quality you pay them for.I don't get why people do not understand if they offend quality from china, then they also offend the quality of their own industry using the parts and materials from there. And I know I repeat myself, butallglobally acting companies do this.Of course there are dodgy marketplaces in china, maybe more than in other parts of the world because china is just producing so incredibly much. If you buy on dodgy marketplaces you can doubtlessly buy a lot of junk, and I agree on anyone who wants to prevent buying junk. But just saying "don't buy from china" is just stupid.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 25, 2024, 07:41:31 am
content: No doubt this thread will descend into chaos, as all the political ones do, but I'll chime in based on what I know to be true.Quality aside, my biggest issue is with who controls the information that a particular device captures. Without going into details, there are some very compelling reasons why Chinese devices are outright banned in many government organisations. In some places, they aren't even allowed in the building.

author: brucehoult
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2024, 07:41:37 am
content: Yup. If nothing else, don't forget iPhones are made in China. There are plenty of good companies in China, full of skilled and hard working people capable of turning out top quality products if you're willing to pay for them.I also get tired of people bashing Aliexpress, while I have never had a bad experience there.As far as I can tell, it's people who open the site, enter "SN7400" (or whatever) in the search box, and pick the cheapest.While I'm buying from the official WCH store on Aliexpress, The official Sipeed store on Aliexpress. The official Radxa store on Aliexpress. The official Banana Pi store on Aliexpress. Ali provide a site that takes the order, takes the payment, in some case does the fulfilment. But you're getting the real product from the real company.Not fakes, not relabelled, not used and recycled. Probably there are some stores on Ali that are like that. But there are plenty that are not. No different to Amazon.

author: Circlotron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2024, 07:41:54 am
content: These two guys lived in China for a number of years and offer insights on what life can be like for ordinary people there.https://www.youtube.com/@serpentza/videoshttps://www.youtube.com/@laowhy86/videos

author: brucehoult
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2024, 07:46:32 am
content: Quote from: Circlotron on July 25, 2024, 07:41:54 amBeen watching them for a long long time e.g. their motorcycle trips together. Also, they were the first place I saw real news about COVID including, in the last days of December 2019, about Dr. Li Wenliang trying to raise the alarm.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 25, 2024, 07:58:39 am
content: Quote from: brucehoult on July 25, 2024, 07:41:37 amCorrect me if I'm wrong but they are merely "assembled" in China. The silicon comes from other (trusted) parts of the world.

author: Postal2
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2024, 08:12:06 am
content: Quote from: brucehoult on July 25, 2024, 07:41:37 amBanana Pi is good, I recommend. Store is "SinoVoip Co., Limited Banana PI". I'm using BPI-M1. I tried BPI-M2 Zero, but it's too hot and no solution yet.

author: Phil1977
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2024, 08:13:03 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on July 25, 2024, 07:58:39 amNo one says China is good at everything. But they are indeed good at quality - if you are willing to pay for it.E.g. the lenses for cameras in smartphones or car cameras are mostly made by chinese suppliers who deliver super precise optical assemblies in bulk quantities.It´s one of the doubtlessly good aspects of globalism: You can combine the qualities of the whole world into one product, may it be an iPhone, an antibiotic med or a car airbag. All these things would be much more expensive or of worse quality if sourced only in parts of the world.But okay, this question how much globalism is good for the individual citizens is really highly political... I fairly understand globalism needs to be critically discussed and sometimes to be limited. But please do this with fair arguments and not with silly nationalism.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 25, 2024, 08:28:33 am
content: Quote from: Phil1977 on July 25, 2024, 08:13:03 amI was making a fair argument. Knowing where something is assembled is very different to knowing where something is actually made or where individual components are manufactured. In some countries, using the wrong phrasing can be deemed misleading and even illegal.Cars are a great example. I wouldn't buy a car made with a Chinese engine or gearbox, but I would consider one if it was simply put together there.Food products are another where labelling laws are important. Regardless of where the recipe is put together, I want to know where the raw ingredients come from.You can't call something Australian made if the parts/components weren't substancially manufactured/grown/developed here.

author: zilp
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2024, 08:40:43 am
content: Quote from: Phil1977 on July 25, 2024, 06:45:26 amNow, while there probably are people who are motivated by nationalism or racism when they bash China, and in particular when they bash Chinese people, I think it's too simplistic to attribute all China bashing to such motivations.For example, I think that it is pretty obvious that faked components are primarily a thing coming from China. But that doesn't mean that Chinese people are somehow inherently dishonest and trying to defraud you. It might as well be that the Chinese government is highly nationalistic, one effect of which is that foreigners don't have the same rights in the legal system, which in turn allows the scammers scamming foreigners to flourish, where in other countries, the legal system would put a stop to that.Though, if you look at, say, the repeated cooking oil scandals in China, this obviously doesn't affect only foreigners. Rather, you are just seeing the effects of an authoritarian government. Really, a lot of the not so great things you see coming from China can be attributed to their government and how it hurts its own people in order to stay in power.So, if someone is trying to tell you that somehow Chinese people are inherently bad or incompetent, then that is obviously bullshit and should not stay unchallenged. But a lot of things that are commonly attributed to "the Chinese" really are effects of the Chinese government and how it incentivises or even forces certain behaviours. So, I think it is perfectly fine to say that you have to be wary of fakes when buying from China, and moreso than "western" countries in general. But at the same time, of course, when you buy chips from WCH through channels that have a reputation to lose, you will not be gettig sanded-down opamps labeled as microcontrollers, but rather microcontrollers of roughly the same quality as your average "western" brand.

author: Phil1977
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2024, 08:42:59 am
content: @Halcyon: Yes, I get all your points. But regarding the iPhone you can't say it´s just assembled in China. Yes, the main CPU is developed and manufactured somewhere else, but the PCBs, the batteries, the passive components, probably the housing and lot´s of other components will be sourced on the free market and that very often means from China.

author: Postal2
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2024, 08:43:42 am
content: Quote from: daisizhou on July 25, 2024, 08:27:10 amI wanted to register on Baidu with the goal of learning Chinese while communicating on different platforms. But I was late, and now it is impossible to do it.

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2024, 08:47:17 am
content: Quote from: brucehoult on July 25, 2024, 07:41:37 amI usually bash "AliBay" or "AliBayZon" because it's same situation on all those open trade platforms. These sites have search and you are supposed to be able to go there, type "SN7400" or "coffee mug" and discover sellers who offer that. And it often works quite well, but when it comes to some categories it simply doesn't because they are flooded with offers of counterfeit or substandard products. And the sites (including AliExpress) don't seem to care about it very much, as long as stuff is selling and money coming in, so they get the reputation they deserve.On AliExpress it's very difficult or almost impossible to find legit discrete semiconductors, particularly power semiconductors, jellybean digital and analog ICs, or just about anything audio-related. 2N3904,HC74xx, LM358 or NE555 is about all you can "safely" buy there, all else will be an approximate functional substitute from the above list, with false markings indicating something else.I have opened disputes with sellers of counterfeit ICs and AliExpress support changed them to "item doesn't meet specs" or "appearance not as described", depending on what evidence I providedI got my money back, but of course nothing ever happened to the sellers or their listings. So yes, I will partly blame the platform for this situation too.Quote from: zilp on July 25, 2024, 08:40:43 amIt might be, or it might not. I remember blueskull ranting that fakery is a standard business practice in China and they do it to each other as much as to foreigners. Being born under communism and growing up surrounded by people who spent decades in it, I'm not even surprised.

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2024, 08:59:31 am
content: I really can't say I've observed an unacceptable amount of posts on this forum that are negative on products from china .Sure there is the occasional quip about 'crap china quality' goods, but that is a real thing, china do make a lot of really crap quality junk that shouldn't even exist, along with all their extremely high quality goods.It's hardly unfair to call them out on the crap quality stuff and I don't think this should be seen as people saying that all their goods are crap quality, because I don't think anyone means that when they say it

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 25, 2024, 09:14:49 am
content: Quote from: Phil1977 on July 25, 2024, 08:42:59 amSources?Because as far as I can tell, while sure the battery is sometimes made in China, in other cases it isn't. Most of the other major components are made outside China as well. Mostly Taiwan, Japan, US and South Korea.https://www.investopedia.com/articles/investing/090315/10-major-companies-tied-apple-supply-chain.aspThis is just one article. A large number of others seem to say the same thing.

author: Phil1977
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2024, 10:12:07 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on July 25, 2024, 09:14:49 amMost of the companies listed in your article are based in central Asia, and many of them have large parts of their manufacturing in China - like Foxcon.Beside that do the Tier1-suppliers need Tier2 and Tier3 subsuppliers. And latestly there you will find stuff from everywhere.

author: jpanhalt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2024, 11:42:28 am
content: Maybe it's just the usual, frequently profane, hyperbole from that author. Ignore.https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/screwdriver-question-miniware-es15s/msg5583639/#msg5583639

author: brucehoult
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2024, 11:47:44 am
content: Definitely a "glass half empty" personality there.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2024, 11:54:27 am
content: China has industrialised faster than possibly any other country. Go back 30 years and find China as a middling developing economy and today they are 2nd largest economy.With this growth comes growing pains, I think we all know stories of deception and fraud from China, like the fake iPhone chargers that explode when they short due to the lack of a fuse, or the plastic in baby formula scandal. But overall I would say the quality of products from China has massively improved over the last decade and people underestimate China's competitiveness at their peril.

author: Refrigerator
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2024, 12:58:33 pm
content: Quote from: Phil1977 on July 25, 2024, 06:45:26 amAs long as you don't add RGB and water cooling to your expensive oscilloscope; then this forum turns into the most insufferably whiny and butthurt place on earth

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2024, 01:04:55 pm
content: I stand by the fact that Chinese default accessories for their cheap tools are marketing whizz wham that destroys screws and butchers metal. If you have any sense, and respect for your work, you learn to throw that crap outyour god damn delusional if you think your gonna get the tool and a 50 piece accessory set for less then the cost of the tool from a mid range manufacturer.this sounds like the harbor freight sales guyand it likes to rust too. I am 100% sure its creative heat treating of cheap metal.and I think this often ends hilarious, like people having to drill out their 3000$ video card because they got a 'free' bit for with driver. Better yet, if its on the under side of a car. Like that chinese ratchet someone was going "OHHHH SUCH QUALITY" that exploded when it fell 2 feet and shot the spring out to the next country over. Haha, it was like destroying a goblin shredder in warcraft, you see clockwerk stuff fly away at high velocity. That spring might have hit the ISS.Did you ever try to take a look under the microscope? Or do you just glance at the glossy surface finish, notice its mitered and assume it means its top quality? I am not gonna be fooled by a rock tumbler.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2024, 01:47:05 pm
content: In the end you get what you pay for.And certainly there are companies everywhere where the quality control isn't adequate. Recently I bought some premium brand items (for cycling) which are manufactured both in the US and China. The US made versions have huge tolerances where the Chinese made ones have small tolerances. It just comes down to attention of detail and management.

author: watchmaker
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 25, 2024, 01:59:54 pm
content: My 2 cents before this thread gets closed.A lot of the rhetoric sounds like how the US dismissed the USSR during the cold war. We vastly underestmated their capabilities in the areas of state priority.As far as this discussion goes, there is a conflation of Chinese manufacturing capability and AliExpress. Two very different animals.Fifteen years ago I discovered a manufacturer of solid carbide twist drills (not ckt board drills) that went down to 1/2mm. Excellent quality. I bought a lifetime supply for little money. I can repivot broken arbors without letting down the steel!Also, many parts things from Swiss watches to aircraft parts are made there. Just not sold on AliExpress. Of course, the Swiss in particular have opened a Pandora's box with tooling that matches Bergeon but not marked Bergeon.We engage in jingoism at our peril

author: BrokenYugo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2024, 02:33:05 pm
content: The bits in my cheapo harbor freight mini screwdriver kit seem to be of reasonable quality. The ones in the cheaper eBay set it replaced were sort of brittle, but they did get work done. I've always bought cheap 1/4 inch hex drive bits from various sources (mostly the deal bins of cheap stuff in hardware stores) and IME anything with an oxide finish of some sort has been good enough, just avoid anything with color finish or plating. I got a set of assorted long/short reach #2PH off ali a while back, black oxide, reduced shank, they seem to be more than good enough for the $2 I paid, tips are wearing well. And those didn't come straight from some toolmaker's outlet store, they came from a random store that sold everything on the pick 3 page. I'm sure they wouldn't last forever hanging sheetrock or whatever but I mostly bought them for deep screw pockets on plastic stuff.Buying from China, or really direct importing anything from anywhere is a gamble to some extent. You have to know what you're looking at if you expect to win more often than not.

author: JMK
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2024, 02:33:49 pm
content: There is also the problem of the distribution chain.Chinese products are much like any other. You get what you pay for.BUTif the importer/distributor/wholesaler buys rubbish and sells with a huge markup (in an effort to get rich quick): the consumer believes the quality is good and blames the manufacturer for creating rubbish when, in fact, it is the middleman who should be blamed.

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2024, 02:47:06 pm
content: Quote from: zilp on July 25, 2024, 08:40:43 am... or melamine-in-milk scandal. But one thing to remember is that sheer size of China (and population thereof) causes an observation bias. For example, in Finland, population 1/500th of China, we had, in 1970's, this case of margarine manufacturer harvesting stray cats and putting them in margarine. Yet, no one knows Finland as country of faked oil scandals; we have this one isolated case. But given the ratios of populations, you could have 500 (!!) of such incidents in China and still it wouldn't be any worse than Finland in this regard (simply speaking).---I mostly have not much to complain with China. You can buy well engineered stuff, and you can buy total crap. One thing which I like is availability of some modestly decent, OK-ish engineered technology which do the job, does not cost an arm and leg,is available to buywithout a massive process of middle managers having to talk to other middle managers. Many Western counterpart are not only expensive and hard to buy, but also fail to operate because of arrogant development attitude of the engineers and overbloated software engineering practices (Chinese software held together with bubble gum may not be nice, butit works.) For example, I can buy a hybrid solar battery inverter designed and manufactured in China, and control it via MODBUS within 5 hours of testing and some personal spot-on assistance over email, but if I try to do the same with a German manufacturer, I get a defective product which crashes, and the support not able to do anything but, after weeks of middle managers talking with other middle managers, try to suggest some workarounds which might or might not work.Then again, I don't like the idea of China having so much dominance on so many markets; but it's more like just generic "don't put all the eggs in the same basket" thinking; more pragmatic than nationalistic. As a result, if I can get anequally goodWestern product for, say, 50% more cost, or a significantlybetterWestern product for, say 100-200% more cost, I tend to choose it. But if China sells me a working product for 50% less cost than a crappy joke by a Western company, I obviously choose the Chinese one instead of bankruptcy.In other words, I will give some bonus points for not being Chinese, not for the hate of China, but forbalancing the riskslong-term, but the extent I can go to is very limited, and for any significant different in either price and/or quality, China will win.And most often, China winsin quality. This seems to be impossible for some people to realize. Especially there is much more to quality than some finishing of some mechanical surface. Having a shiny appearance is of no value, if the quality of theprocess of buying the productis made shit, or if software is shit, as usual in too many Western products developed using modern-day software science paradigms.

author: Ice-Tea
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2024, 05:16:04 pm
content: Quote from: Siwastaja on July 25, 2024, 02:47:06 pmSame in Belgium. PCB contaminated transformer oil in cattle feed.

author: Kim Christensen
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2024, 05:24:58 pm
content: China bashing in the 2020s reminds me of Japan bashing in the 1970s.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2024, 05:26:55 pm
content: Quote from: zilp on July 25, 2024, 08:40:43 amWell, China can't truly catch up to the most developed western countries if it falls behind on food contamination scandals.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2024, 06:25:28 pm
content: Quote from: Ice-Tea on July 25, 2024, 05:16:04 pmYup. The common denominator is corruption and/or lack of (government) supervision / regulations.

author: jpanhalt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2024, 06:37:07 pm
content: Quote from: Kim Christensen on July 25, 2024, 05:24:58 pmMore like the 1950's to mid-60's. In the 1950's "Made in Japan" implied made from recycled beer cans left by American GI's. By the 1970's, its products had begun to be improved a lot. Read about Dr. Deming's influence. I have a Jet drill press from 1974 and made in Japan that is better than any Jet drill press made today.https://deming.org/learn/about-dr-deming/and see Wikipedia if you are not familiar with what he did.

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2024, 07:08:57 pm
content: The same stigma applied to "Made in Taiwan" labels in more recent decades. Who would have thought that TSMC would go on to have such a role in the world today and that the country would become such a technology hub.Strangely 'Made in India' products don't seem to have come to the same attention, despite poor quality steel and manufacturing tolerances - things like lathe chucks have a poor reputation for instance. Maybe export levels have to reach a certain threshold... or be more consumer oriented.I guess every country has it's day in the spotlight as it climbs the quality curve.

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2024, 07:24:24 pm
content: From China came a very wise BOOK, involving timing insights, and situation insights....'The Art of War'.That's not exclusively for armed conflict; in fact there are insights on how to AVOID direct conflict, to protects one's interests, whether for country, for a business, or in direct war.China products include health advances, not even fully understood or appreciated (everywhere).But I'd have to agree that there are many component supply aspects worthy of criticism.(No one can argue, that Bruce Lee was fat and out of shape!)

author: jpanhalt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2024, 08:37:33 pm
content: Quote from: Gyro on July 25, 2024, 07:08:57 pmWhile I don't disagree, you might be surprised by what is actually produced in India today and preferred. Check out Mahindra ag equipment. It is very popular compared to stuffy and arrogant John Deere where I live. Deere probably has the edge in the huge implement market, but in smaller equipment, Mahindra is well respected.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2024, 10:20:29 pm
content: and if you actually read my posts, you would see that I did compliment the quality of the gearing and internals of the screw driver in the thread you mention and the micro drill (other then minor wobble) and micro polishing tool in my other threads. I said the scam is with the accessories, they try to give you a complete set to look like its a great deal, but my reality is that the tool is of good quality but you need to spend double to get the proper accessories for it.Maybe actually read it before you make a blanket statement about my intentions. I said you get high quality bearings and bushings and shit like that in the clutch that basically indicate the entire 'budget' of the tool was blown by the point they got to any required accessories, hence the comparison to the air conditioner, where you get a big complicated metal machine with some joke add on for the window (but you either use theirs or engineer your own, its not a complete product). Finding the proper accessories for the micro stuff was not a easy matter, in its default state without the extra leg work its not useful, as I said, people and I say that it basically won't drill a war hammer plastic miniature, just like a window AC won't work good unless you start cutting Styrofoam parts yourself.

author: schmitt trigger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2024, 11:46:50 pm
content: Quote from: Kim Christensen on July 25, 2024, 05:24:58 pmJapan bashing was so widespread, that an urban legend circulated that the Japanese re-named a city “Usa” such that they could label their products Made in USA.Which of course is false. The Japanese town of Usa actually existed prior to WW2, and no customs agency worth its salt would allow paperwork without the full geographical origin: Usa, Japan.

author: Buriedcode
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2024, 12:18:21 am
content: Quote from: daisizhou on July 25, 2024, 08:27:10 amI am often impressed/worried by how many people don't seem to understand this. Some of the highest quality products in the world are designed and manufactured in China. Some of the worst and cheapest products in the world are designed and made in China. Its manufacturing scale is so vast there is a huge variation and many levels of "quality" - its just those who regularly compain about "Chinese crap" seem to buy the cheapest, lowest end stuff, and assume this is representitive of the only manufacturing superpower on Earth.Other countries cannot produce many, if any, products at either end of that scale, and so seem to get a better reputation, because they're lowest quality products are "better".I too have noticed a distinct anti-East bias in the forum. I have seen the word "ch*nky" used in several posts with no mention of it by others. These people know it is offensive as it is used in that context - as a racial slur.And one of the most frustrating things is those who seem to love bashing Chinausemany many chinese made products that work just fine. Either they aren't aware of this, or more likely, they selectively pick out products that have failed them to justify their bigotry. If they truely didnt' like the Chinese, then they should use phones, computers, and test equipment made elsewhere - and good luck finding or affording those.

author: coromonadalix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2024, 12:29:01 am
content: i would sayit's our habits who define what we get on the market, we think cheap we get cheap, not just from china ..even paying prime $$ we can still get shit ... it depend on what market you want to buy stuff, electronics, home appliances, cars name it ...now it is based on consumption habits, it broke dump it, and buy again, that's the business model, quality is almost non existent anymorei came from an old era of what you had before could last years and years, i've seen the wind of changes, i want to cry ... tv's who could last 10 years flatfridges who could last 15 years ..... now loll all is pure @%^#^%if we talk about bashing, i would bash the human behaviour

author: brucehoult
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2024, 01:14:28 am
content: Quote from: coromonadalix on July 26, 2024, 12:29:01 am10 years? 15? What kind of crap do you buy?In 1990 I bought a 2 bedroom flat, and at the same time bought a Flymo lawnmower, a Panasonic vacuum cleaner, and our local NZ Fisher&Paykel fridge, "Gentle Annie" clothes washer, and dryer (which as I recall was NZ$400 and has the best thermistor-in-exhaust detection of clothes dryness levels I've ever used).That's 24 years ago.The lawnmower and vacuum are departed, but I'm still using the whiteware.My previous car here in NZ was a 1997 Subaru Grandwagon (early Outback) which I sold in 2019, at age 22, and only because I thought I was moving to the USA for 5 or 10 years (COVID changed that). When I returned to NZ I bought a 2008 Outback which is now 16 years old. I've had that over 4 years, and I don't know any reason that I won't still be using it in another ten years when it is 26 years old.My main motorcycle is a BMW R1100RT, bought new on October 1 1995. That will soon be 29 years old and has given very little trouble. Mostly just the usual servicing, tyres, and a battery every 7 or 8 years. I've had to replace the fuel pump and lines (it was made for leaded fuel!) and the Hall-effect crankshaft position sensor failed -- or actually it was the insulation on the wires to it in the hot part of the engine disintegrating, letting the wires short. For sure the maintenance so far has been much cheaper than buying a new one.I believe there are still things made with just as good quality as at any time in the past (better!) -- you just have to choose to buy them, possibly paying a little more.On the other hand, the "cheap crap" is often perfectly usable for light or infrequent duty and having it is preferable to having nothing.

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2024, 04:14:42 am
content: You must have a realistic view, that most Western countries, especially in the 5 eyes ones, the population is being brainwashed for decades. Like .. China bad, ccp evil, china steals, china eats their own babies, china will invade and rape your mom/wife/daughter and etc.These it self, after such long exposures, must have long term effects, at least for certain amount of population. (not all)Some are even emotionally and physically being prepared to be sacrificed and act as a nuke blast shield for the GREAT AMERICA, should a WW3 nuke war with China, for example like "some" Ozzies in Australia, yep, I heard that from them my self.Look at German your self, is being actively prepared to be the next nuke blast shield from Russia to protect the US. Similar to the scheme for China.Ever wonder what if , make a situation that Russia just nuke the US directly if a war erupted, skipping the Europe instead of having to to go "thru" Europe, ever thought about that ?

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 26, 2024, 04:50:07 am
content: Quote from: BravoV on July 26, 2024, 04:14:42 amNot exactly "brainwashing" if it's demonstrably true.I will clarify, that the Chinese population, is really no different to any other. The people, except for a small percentage, are decent, ethical people. You'll be hard pressed to find anyone disagreeing with that.When people refer to "China" in these types of contexts, it usually refers to the CCP. They are textbook gaslighters. Their beef is, the western world sees right through their nonsense.

author: Andy Chee
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2024, 05:04:29 am
content: Quote from: schmitt trigger on July 25, 2024, 11:46:50 pmDoc Brown: Unbelievable that this little piece of junk could be such a big problem. No wonder this circuit failed. It says "Made in Japan".Marty McFly: What do you mean, Doc? All the best stuff is made in Japan.- Back to the Future Part 3

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2024, 07:30:11 am
content: Quote from: Buriedcode on July 26, 2024, 12:18:21 amNot only regular posters but also mods and it has made me abandon the forum for months or years at a time. I do not come to forums to argue and when I do not feel comfortable I just leave.It is a common thing for any group to find security in belittling other groups. Racism, sexism, nationalism, religionism, all have the same cause.If one of your own group is a thief you say "Fred is a thief" but if someone of the other group is a thief you say "they are all thieves".A contaminated food scandal in China reinforces our prejudice against China. A contaminated food scandal in Spain does not trigger any similar reaction against Spain and yet it happens just the same.If their government spies it is because they are bad but if our government does the same thing except more and worse then it is because they are defending all that is good and holy against the bad guys. They make us do it.Wise people do not judge; they seek to understand. — Wei Wu WeiBut it is much easier to judge and condemn.We are better than them and we know this because we all say so.= = = = = = =https://www.kiplingsociety.co.uk/poem/poems_wethey.htmFather, Mother, and MeSister and Auntie sayAll the people like us are We,And every one else is They.And They live over the sea,While We live over the way,But - would you believe it?- They look upon WeAs only a sort of They!All good people agree,And all good people say,All nice people, like Us, are WeAnd every one else is They:But if you cross over the sea,Instead of over the way,You may end by (think of it!)looking on WeAs only a sort of They!Rudyard Kipling= = = = = = =People who have never been to some country that I know well are the most certain in their judgment and telling me how things really are over there. The less they know the more certain they are.People need to travel more, understand more, judge less and preach by example.I better go crawl back into my hole now.

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2024, 07:51:56 am
content: Quote from: zilp on July 25, 2024, 08:40:43 amThis makes zero sense to me.Where do you get that "foreigners don't have the same rights in the legal system"?How do you explain it when a similar food scandal happens in Europe? We have them in Spain every day of the week and twice on Sundays.

author: zilp
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2024, 09:20:53 am
content: Quote from: soldar on July 26, 2024, 07:30:11 amFirst: No, "acontaminated food scandal in China" doesn't reinforce anything, that's just a straw man that you made up.Second: Oh, does it?Also, I take it that the Spanish government also suppresses reporting on food scandals, then? Because it obviously is all the same, and there is no press freedom in Spain, either?Quote from: soldar on July 26, 2024, 07:30:11 amYou did notice that you are just making shit up, right?You are just making up that "we" are fine with "our" governments spying. I am not. There is zero inconsistency there, other than what you invented.Also, I'd like to see your evidence that the spying by "western" governments is in fact "more and worse" than what the chinese government does to its citizens.Quote from: soldar on July 26, 2024, 07:30:11 amHave you considered that there might be other explanation for people disagreeing with you, besides them not seeking to understand, and that people may have determined that something is better than something else based on evidence, not based on "we all say so"?Quote from: soldar on July 26, 2024, 07:30:11 amOK. So, tell us, what was your experience in China publishing a book about the Tiananmen Square massacre? What was your experience in China organizing a protest in support of Uyghurs and against their treatment in the "vocational education and training centers"? What was your experience trying to leave your home in Shanghai during the Covid lockdowns of 2022?Seriously, I am genuinely curious what your experiences were trying to exercise anything resembling civic rights as they generally exist in "western" countries.What I am not interested in, though, is your experiences traveling in the country, obeying the government, and meeting people. Noone is disputing that there are tons of decent people in China, as there are anywhere on the planet, and it is completely uninteresting that you are not mistreated if you don't try to exercise freedoms. There were decent people in Hitler's Germany and in Franco's Spain, and if you were of some acceptable ethnicity and agreed with everything the government said, you could have had a good time in both those dictatorships. That doesn't mean that everything was fine under those governments, nor that things were just as fine a anywhere else on the planet. Because while some people were having a good time, a few million other citizens were also being industrially slaughtered in Germany, a thing that was in fact not going on in other countries where people were having a good time.

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2024, 10:18:34 am
content: This guy is a known China fanboy.It's funny that you mentioned Covid, though, because "we" learned a trick or two from China in those days

author: zilp
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2024, 10:46:05 am
content: Quote from: magic on July 26, 2024, 10:18:34 amReally, it sounds more like CCP fanboy? I mean, "China fanboy" can mean a lot of things, some of which I might even be on board with, but that is quite different from being a supporter of an authoritarian government, and especially one that you yourself don't have to live under.Quote from: magic on July 26, 2024, 10:18:34 amSuch as?

author: snarkysparky
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2024, 12:40:22 pm
content: The bad country that is manufacturing cheaper than us and taking our jobs is a primary tool to agitate and distract the masses.How about feeling sorry for those poor suckers in the other country that are working too hard to build us things for the money they receive.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2024, 06:07:00 pm
content: Quote from: schmitt trigger on July 25, 2024, 11:46:50 pmMy favourite example of Japan bashing and how time changes...https://youtu.be/watch?v=7VxNY2WsJn0&t=440s

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 27, 2024, 02:58:46 am
content: I feel like its a troll because I basically told people how to make the pen drill into a worth while purchase with swiss drills and why the hammer mechanism on the micro screw driver might be useful. if anything its china fixingI even fucking said that its still useful despite the chuck wobble I got in my pen drill its usable for drilling holes in steel, and despite the fact that the mechanical clutch is fragile on the driver, I bought another one after breaking the first once because the mechanisms are very precise and I trust it not to destroy threads with the mechanical torque limiter.... you need to treat it like a dial indicator but I do not expect a "torque adjustment" tool to require any less then this.... i.e. if you drop a torque wrench your in trouble. I am not some idiot that thinks they can actually manage to make a drop proof micro sized motor operated torque tool for anywhere near their cost.I like the pen tools. No one but china seems to make any. its just their incomplete

author: Phil1977
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 27, 2024, 05:16:13 pm
content: Quote from: coppercone2 on July 25, 2024, 10:20:29 pmThanks for your statement! I explicitely didn't cite you with name because I didn't want to discredit you personally or anything around it. It was just this "all other countries use precision CNC and China throws crap into frying oil" that was already nearly satiric, but it somehow was in line with many "stop chinas exports to save the world" paroles.It´s just fair to discuss human rights, environmental damage, globalism in general, quality of junk sales, etc... I just wanted to say the world is doing extremely much trade with china and very often gets a very reasonable quality, and replies to the original posting show that's also quite common opinion!With this clarification and from this point of view everything thing is okay. It´s perfectly okay to hear some "strong" or biased opinions as long as most people are modest and calm.

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 27, 2024, 06:50:42 pm
content: If it's fair to discuss human rights, should be fair regardless of country getting the criticism.First thing comes to mind, here in U.S. is the whole mask / VAX mandates, that specified loss of job, school expulsions, etc.Those rights violations were arbitrary, and sometimes laden with completely inappropriate 'agendas', and enforced in tyrannical manner.Yes, I know maybe no 'executions'.But for sure, we had to endure many arbitrary 'enforcements and arrogant declarations of self-superiority.Not you, sorry; that's just first thought, after hearing about China's flaws.

author: Buriedcode
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 27, 2024, 08:47:21 pm
content: Quote from: RJSV on July 27, 2024, 06:50:42 pmAnd.... here comes the thread lock. The US didn't violate human rights during the pandemic - at least not the rights of US citizens. But this is thread is about percieved anti-China sentiment that is in *some* threads. Given this is a forum about electronics, I assumed the thread was about anti-China bias regarding their manufactuered products - not every aspect of the country. Lets at least try and keep it somewhat technology related?

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 27, 2024, 08:59:04 pm
content: Quote from: Buriedcode on July 27, 2024, 08:47:21 pmThe Nuremberg Code says otherwise.

author: zilp
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2024, 12:23:26 am
content: Quote from: RJSV on July 27, 2024, 06:50:42 pmSo, how were they arbitrary?

author: zilp
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2024, 12:29:38 am
content: Quote from: coppice on July 27, 2024, 08:59:04 pmWhy do you think that the Nuremberg Code is relevant for determining whether human rights were violated, given that the Nuremberg Code is not even a legal document?

author: jpanhalt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2024, 12:53:20 am
content: Quote from: zilp on July 28, 2024, 12:29:38 amWhile not codified in law, the US is on record as requiring human experimentation to be ethical:https://www.nih.gov/health-information/nih-clinical-research-trials-you/guiding-principles-ethical-researchInformed consent is a basic pillar of that and mandated participation is the opposite.EDIT: In Germany, it is apparently the law:https://www.nih.gov/health-information/nih-clinical-research-trials-you/guiding-principles-ethical-research

author: zilp
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2024, 01:20:48 am
content: Quote from: jpanhalt on July 28, 2024, 12:53:20 amSo, you are saying that coppice's argument was bullshit, then?If you want to make a new argument, ok, fine, make a new argument, but I can't stand people just shifting the goal posts when you point out how their argument is nonsense, but never acknowledging that the previous argument was bullshit, and instead pretending like I am the problem when their arguments don't hold water.Also, if you want to make a new argument, please spell it out in full and don't let me guess which parts of the previous argument you are shifting around and which ones you are leaving alone.

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2024, 02:22:38 am
content: Zilp: Thanks for your view, on people staying on the current line of argument. I agree as I also get frustrated at the 'flakey' interactions (without stepping on any of the folks here, immediately).It's a form of immaturity, and I've wondered about the High School debate clubs, and what the opinion would be there.It's maybe a metadata issue; meaning that, whatever the topic, it's this 'shift', or quick pivot, that is problem.For example, when arguing with doctor, back and forth, with opposing views, and the doctor pivots to say something like:"...Well I understand that the nutritional aspects aren't super-good", when meanwhile you had been arguing about an almost completely different aspect, like which type of broken leg cast is effective.If I'm stating that right, the doctor, in the arguments, suddenly throws out that (example) comment, that nutritional guidelines aren't being followed. It's off-setting, or causing a loss of MOMENTUM as argument progresses.Now, I don't exactly have a compact term for that, but it can be infuriating and disruptive, to the parties involved in any discourse relating to specific topic.- - thanks. Rick

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2024, 02:57:24 am
content: (continued)One sort-of street term for this is:"OK, don't try to Slime Out of it".Which refers to attempting to wiggle out, when proved wrong, in arguments.Often, at least in my experience, the other party is a family member, job boss, or other untouchable figure, and so we tend to just shrug and give them a break...the out that they seek.But, in some settings there is the option of 'pre-empting' some person that has done this wiggle-out. I've used THAT verbal self-defense method, saying something like:"We discussed that, yesterday, and you kept changing the subject...".Response comes, (still unacceptable), that they 'stayed on-topic', but you maybe just have to insist:"No, ....it's a waste of time, to debate when you respond like a small child. Come back when you are willing to stick to the original issue...".Relatives do the 'topic shift', in what I learned to call a 'Drive-by'. That's a label borrowed from gang warfare, but verbally a relative would fire off some typically political smear / insult, but then suddenly retreat into territory of 'polite' where you (feel) obligated to drop any possible defensive response. That's why I call that a 'Drive-by', as the setting is suddenly in territory of being civil.Very frustrating, when it's a relative, commenting about an overweight issue, for example!

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2024, 06:03:29 am
content: Quote from: RJSV on July 28, 2024, 02:57:24 amThe other common ones is to label the opponent somehow evil, or the entire argument as so obvious and all opposition so preposterous they are conspiracy theories and misinformation. I find this extremely common in all fields of human life. And it is not new: old-timey kings didn't need fools that much for entertainment; they really needed someone to tell the truth when nobody else dared to. Similar social mechanisms and roles still exist, and are confused with racism, for example the japanese "Loud American" role, exactly because all this is so very human and nothing new.The sad truth is that most humans "think" with their instincts and emotions, not with rational logic.

author: Andy Chee
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2024, 06:46:34 am
content: Quote from: jpanhalt on July 28, 2024, 12:53:20 amWas vaccination mandated in the USA?I was of the understanding that one could freely refuse vaccination, though as a consequence, one may lose employment because of refusal, or be restricted mobility around the city.In which case, it's not the vaccination that is violating human rights, it's the employment dismissal for vaccine refusal that is violating human rights, and restricted movement that is violating human rights.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2024, 09:00:00 am
content: Quote from: Andy Chee on July 28, 2024, 06:46:34 amOr it might have been a decision which balances the individual's right to free movement and free career choice vs. the health of their co-workers and of the general public.Sheesh; if we don't manage to get this thread locked based on the China angle, I am sure we can get it done with some Covid anti-vax discussions.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 28, 2024, 09:21:39 am
content: Quote from: ebastler on July 28, 2024, 09:00:00 amIt's not even about getting a random thread locked on the internet. The "anti-vax" movement has been debunked a number of times, including with respect to the COVID vaccines. The science is out on that. For the vast majority of human life, vaccinations are beneficial. Aside from edge cases, that's really all there is to say about the matter.

author: zilp
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2024, 09:37:00 am
content: Quote from: ebastler on July 28, 2024, 09:00:00 amTechnically, that is not a contradiction. When balancing one legally protected right against another, you are still violating at least one of those rights. But if that balancing is required because of a collision of those rights (i.e., if you are resolving a situation where it is, as a matter of empirical reality, not possible to enforce both rights at the same time), then that is not necessarily a contradiction with the rule of law. It only becomes incompatible with the rule of law if proportionality is not maintained, i.e., if measures are taken to enforce right A that violate the colliding right B in a manner that exceeds what is actually necessary in order to enforce right A, or if, all thing considered, the damage caused by violating right B exceeds the benefit of protecting right A.

author: Andy Chee
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2024, 09:51:30 am
content: Correct. The human rights charter does not imply any hierarchy of importance.For example, Article 3 (right to life) is NOT higher ranked than Article 13 (freedom of movement). All rights are equal importance and value.Unfortunately in the real world, such equality poses severe practical limitations when rights conflict. Inevitably a court may decide which right takes priority (not internet keyboard lawyers).

author: zilp
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2024, 09:58:11 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on July 28, 2024, 09:21:39 amThat's all true, and some of what has been said on this thread smells a bit like anti-vax propaganda, but in the context of Covid19 in particular, I guess you can steelman the position critical in particular of vaccination mandates by considering that, in the end, all vaccines turned out to be pretty bad at inducing sterile immunity, i.e., at preventing the vaccinated person from infecting others, which at least is a critical component of a justification for vaccination mandates. After all, it absolutely is a protected right to refuse medical treatment, no matter how safe and beneficial it objectively is, and if your vaccination status makes no difference to the health of other people, there might just not be any basis for violating that right, because doing so does not in fact protect other, colliding rights.The problem with that position tends to be that (a) people often ignore the state of knowledge at the point when vaccination mandates were suggested or possibly even enacted and enforced (i.e., the low efficacy at causing sterile immunity was not known, and also apparently was rather surprising for the experts in the field when later discovered), (b) the low efficacy at causing sterile immunity at least in part was the result of later mutations, which, of course, also weren't known at the time, (c) it often seems to be ignored that even without sterile immunity, the virus load and thus the probably of infecting other people still might be reduced, and (d) it often seems to be ignored that the potential benefits for society at large of wide-spread immunization go beyond sterile immunity, in that, for example, wide-spread immunization in a situation like the Covid19 pandemic, can help prevent overload of the health system, and thus also protects the health of other people indirectly, in that it ensures that there are sufficient resources to provide medical help to those who need it.

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2024, 10:16:46 am
content: Quote from: zilp on July 28, 2024, 09:58:11 amRight, and neither was a high efficacy or any sort of effectiveness known at the time, it was simply a medical experiment conducted on whole populations with no regard for research standards or ethics, because it was novel technology with big money making potential and some people with enough $$ wanted to see the results right now.

author: jpanhalt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2024, 10:17:56 am
content: Quote from: zilp on July 28, 2024, 01:20:48 amYour interpretation of what I said is yours alone, not mine.Coppice said the US violated human rights during the pandemic. I agreed. It was claimed to be allowed under "emergency powers."Limits on such powers have not been defined clearly in America, but past exercises have been challenged as excesses (e.g., FDR's internment of Asians).Nuremberg is relevant. Read the legislative history behind current laws and regulations. Human rights and ethical research are inextricably linked. Many people use "Nuremberg" in casual conversation to describe the subsequent laws and regulations.No goal posts have been shifted. It is you who needs to study the subject, particularly with respect to what constitutes human experimentation in the US and mandated procedures for doing that, including the definition of informed consent.

author: zilp
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2024, 10:39:40 am
content: Quote from: magic on July 28, 2024, 10:16:46 amDo I understand you correctly that you are saying that no clinical trials were conducted with the Covid19 vaccines used in "western" countries before they were made available to the general public?

author: Postal2
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2024, 10:46:05 am
content: Quote from: magic on July 28, 2024, 10:16:46 amI completely agree.

author: zilp
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2024, 10:56:52 am
content: Quote from: jpanhalt on July 28, 2024, 10:17:56 amNo, I am reading what you wrote in context. If that is not what you meant, then your response was simply irrelevant.Quote from: jpanhalt on July 28, 2024, 10:17:56 amNo, he specifically said that this could be determined based on the Nuremberg Code. Which is what I asked to be justified. Which you didn't.Quote from: jpanhalt on July 28, 2024, 10:17:56 amOK, so, how is the Nuremberg Code relevant here?Quote from: jpanhalt on July 28, 2024, 10:17:56 amHe didn't loosely speak of "something to do with Nuremberg", he specifically referenced a particular document, the Nuremberg Code, as if it were a legal document that could be used to determine whether rights were violated.Quote from: jpanhalt on July 28, 2024, 10:17:56 amNo, none of that is relevant for the claim that the Nuremberg Code is a legal basis for determining whether human rights were violated.I never disputed that human rights werre violated, that is in fact just you shifting the goal posts.

author: Phil1977
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2024, 11:04:42 am
content: I thought this goes into a reasonable, modest direction.But this Anti-Vax discussion seems even far worse than anything regarding china. Bringing the "Nürnberger Prozesse" regarding crimes against humanity in context with medical actions to keep a pandemic under control is blood-curdlingly stupid incitement.

author: zilp
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2024, 11:15:36 am
content: Quote from: Phil1977 on July 28, 2024, 11:04:42 amNo, you must understand, being provided a vaccine that had been tested on volunteers and determined to be very low risk in comparison to the risk of the illness that is also was determined to be very effective at reducing the risk of, is basically the same thing asthis shit.Let me quote, to make sure noone here really is unaware what the comparison is that they have difficulty finding the difference in:QuoteAnd just to be clear: These subjects were people who were violently removed from their homes, and who were not asked for consent. And no, they also did not have the option to not go to work in order to avoid this fate.

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2024, 11:20:53 am
content: Quote from: zilp on July 28, 2024, 10:39:40 amNo, you repeatedly seem to struggle with understanding people correctly

author: Postal2
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2024, 11:22:53 am
content: Quote from: zilp on July 28, 2024, 11:15:36 amWho was volunteer, you? My uncle died after the second dose, suffocated in the night.

author: zilp
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2024, 11:28:10 am
content: Quote from: magic on July 28, 2024, 11:20:53 amDo I understand you correctly that you are more interested in telling me that I struggle with understanding people correctly than with helping me understand your position?So, can you explain, then, how "neither was a high efficacy or any sort of effectiveness known at the time" was the result of the clinical studies that apparently had been conducted?

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2024, 11:42:10 am
content: Quote from: zilp on July 28, 2024, 11:28:10 amThis is interesting - some people clearly don't make a clear distinction betweennot understandingandgetting annoyed. To me, these are two different things. To be clear, I must say you are one of the most clearly communicating members here currently; all that is needed is to readexactlywhat you are saying, and it's very difficult to misunderstand. Yet clearly some are gettingannoyedwith your communication and as response, behaveas ifthey did not understand - they do this either deliberately, or subconsciously. Then they project their own poor communication skills to those who they are annoyed at.

author: jpanhalt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2024, 11:48:33 am
content: Quote from: Phil1977 on July 28, 2024, 11:04:42 amNuremberg is the first item listed (see: attachment) as background for the American regulations. You seem to be uninformed.Source:https://clinicalcenter.nih.gov/recruit/ethics.htmlThe link mentioned at the end did not work for me. I suspect this link is a copy:https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Habib-Karim/publication/308393057_Clinical_Research_and_Basic_Ethical_Principles/links/57e28a9708aed96fbbb26c3f/Clinical-Research-and-Basic-Ethical-Principles.pdfAt American universities, anyone involved as director or participating investigator was required to study a more extensive manual (about 100 to 200 pages) and pass a test. At least, that was the case at University of Pittsburgh in the early 1990's.

author: zilp
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2024, 11:51:50 am
content: Quote from: Postal2 on July 28, 2024, 11:22:53 amNo, I wasn't.But you are aware that medical treatments are tested on people other than myseelf?Quote from: Postal2 on July 28, 2024, 11:22:53 amI am sorry.But for one: Of which vaccine? I obviously can't tell you who the volunteers were if I don't even know which vaccine you are talking about.Then: You are aware that pretty much every medical treatment has risks? And that the standard for approval of medical treatments is not that it is without risk, but that that risk is outweighed by the benefits? That does not mean that every single person who receives that treatment will benefit from it. But what it does mean is that, statistically, the expected benefit is greater than the risk. After all, it might just as well have happened instead that your uncle would not have died from the vaccination, and would instead have been infected lateron, and would have survived that infection because of the vaccination. And statistically, the latter would probably have been the more likely outcome, which is probably why the vaccination was approved and recommended. And I say "probably" because I obviously don't even know what vaccine we are talking about, and under which jurisdiction it was approved.And also: You do write your uncle died "after the second dose". Note how you didn't even write "because of the second dose". So: Do you even know that he died because of the vaccine?After all, people die, and people sometimes die unexpectedly, and sometimes people even die with symptoms that match symptoms typical for a particular cause, but still for a completely different cause. And if you were to use a 100% safe treatment on hundred of millions of people, it is statistically almost guaranteed that quite a few people will die shortly afterwards with all kinds of symptoms. That is why it needs systematic studies and statistical analysis to figure out whether a treatment is safe, and while individual experiences like yours can be traumatizing for those affected, they don't actually in isolation tell us anything useful about the safety of a treatment.

author: Postal2
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2024, 12:13:35 pm
content: Quote from: zilp on July 28, 2024, 11:51:50 amIf I had any doubts about why my uncle died, I wouldn't have written about it. And you can hope that others have a bad vaccine, but yours is certainly good. Because it was made by honest and incorruptible people. In care exclusively about people and in no way about profit.

author: zilp
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2024, 12:20:36 pm
content: Quote from: Postal2 on July 28, 2024, 12:13:35 pmYou didn't write why your uncle died. You only wrote what happened before your uncle died.Quote from: Postal2 on July 28, 2024, 12:13:35 pmYou did notice that you haven't said anything that establishes that the vaccine that you uncle got was bad, right? You also noticed that you didn't even name the vaccine, right?Also, how can it be that you only care about people, but at the same time apparently are completely uninterested in finding out whether vaccines would help people?

author: Postal2
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2024, 12:31:04 pm
content: Quote from: zilp on July 28, 2024, 12:20:36 pmHe felt ill after the first dose, and his wife asked him not to give him a second injection.

author: zilp
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2024, 12:36:43 pm
content: Quote from: jpanhalt on July 28, 2024, 11:48:33 amYou do notice how "background for the American regulations" is distinct from "is the American regulation"?And you do realize that that in particular means that the authors of the actual regulation thought that the Nuremberg Code was not in fact not appropriate as law?Quote from: jpanhalt on July 28, 2024, 11:48:33 amOK. And now, could you explain how the handling of the Covid19 vaccines in the US was incompatible with that actual manual?

author: Postal2
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2024, 12:39:01 pm
content: Quote from: zilp on July 28, 2024, 12:20:36 pmI saw that all the talk about vaccines was carried out exclusively by stupid and illiterate people, whom I cannot trust because of their extreme stupidity.

author: zilp
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2024, 12:48:05 pm
content: Quote from: Postal2 on July 28, 2024, 12:31:04 pmYou still didn't write why your uncle died. Unspecified "feeling ill" is an expected effect of vaccination, because the way vaccination works is that it stimulates the immune system so that it produces antibodies against the infection that you are vaccinating against, and that tends to come with "feeling ill". Millions of people "felt ill" after Covid19 vaccinations and didn't die.And if this was way beyond the expected effects of the vaccine: For one, how about you explain in full how you come to your conclusion, rather than waiting for me to ask for every little detail. But also, in that case, I wonder what the reponsible doctor said when informed of the effects your uncle experienced after the first dose? After all, even the safest medical treatments can be risky if incompetently administered.

author: Postal2
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2024, 12:51:07 pm
content: Quote from: zilp on July 28, 2024, 12:48:05 pmI congratulate them.

author: zilp
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2024, 12:51:46 pm
content: Quote from: Postal2 on July 28, 2024, 12:39:01 pmHave you looked for other people, or maybe actual studies, so you could ignore those stupid and illiterate people and still figure out whether vaccines help people?

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2024, 12:55:13 pm
content: Quote from: zilp on July 28, 2024, 01:20:48 amThe Nuremberg code has an odd status. I don't think its in any country's internal laws, but its a code of practice countries have tried to bludgeon each other with. If you feel that human rights for foreigners are different from human rights for locals I guess your point is valid.

author: zilp
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2024, 12:57:11 pm
content: Quote from: Postal2 on July 28, 2024, 12:51:07 pmI maybe should have been more explicit:When a treatment is administered to millions of people without serious ill effects (and the observed effects being what was expected, and what the patient was informed about before they were asked for consent to the treatment), while you happen to know one person who maybe had serious ill effects, then that means that the treatment is a very low-risk treatment, which then means that is is ethical to recommend this treatment to people in general if there are significant benefits to be expected.Also, you still haven't established that your uncle died from the vaccination. And also, somehow, it seems like you didn't see my question as to what your uncle's doctor said about the effects he had experienced after the first dose?

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2024, 01:01:54 pm
content: Wow! Apologies to moderators, as I screwed up, bringing up the non-electronics topics here.After picking apart the various replies, I think that someone started down the path of China and human rights...again probably out of scope, here. So, I went from there (wrongly), but no excuse, (just because I wasn't first).The real point I have, is the whole 'pivot' dynamic, and let's just keep THAT point as electronics supply chain arguments.It's almost a Grammer structure thing; where a person puts a reply like this:"They (China) also supply bad or good automotive gasoline filters, but that's not the discussion, here."See what I just did ? I managed to express an opinion, on a China product, (is good, or is bad) but THEN blocked further discussion, by saying my comment is out of bounds!Make sense ?

author: Postal2
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2024, 01:05:36 pm
content: Quote from: zilp on July 28, 2024, 12:51:46 pmYes. The history of the Covid vaccine has nothing to do with them.Quote from: zilp on July 28, 2024, 12:57:11 pmWhat could he say? He simply started injecting everyone with saline solution so as not to have problems with his conscience. Many doctors did the same.

author: zilp
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2024, 01:27:56 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on July 28, 2024, 12:55:13 pmThe point is that the Nuremberg Code is way too simple to be useful for determining whether something is a human rights violation, unless it is an extremely egregious case.Operating on unwilling subjects who were taken violently from their homes without anaesthesia for no reason that could even conceivably be in the subject's interest does not need any detailed rules about what consitutes informed consent to firgure out whether that might possibly be a human rights violation, because no reasonable rules on informed consent could possibly classify that as informed consent.This obviously does not apply to vaccinations that you can refuse without threat to your life and that were demontrated to be effective and reasonably safe in studies before they were offered to the public.If you want to argue that under some reasonable standard, these tratments were not offered under informed consent, that's fine, but then you have to do the work to actually establish that and not just reference the Nuremberg Code, and in particular you'd have to pay attention to not use arguments that would make all medical treatments human rights violations.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2024, 01:32:20 pm
content: Quote from: zilp on July 28, 2024, 01:27:56 pmPurposefully destroying someone's livelihood, with no possibility of them getting similar employment elsewhere in the country, is a pretty violent act. I don't think a gun to the head is a reasonable threshold for unreasonable duress.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2024, 01:32:41 pm
content: Quote from: Postal2 on July 28, 2024, 12:39:01 pm... said the guy who is protecting his eyesight by using CRTs exclusively, avoiding the evil polarized light from LCDs.

author: zilp
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2024, 01:34:02 pm
content: Quote from: Postal2 on July 28, 2024, 01:05:36 pmHas nothing to do with what?Quote from: Postal2 on July 28, 2024, 01:05:36 pmSo, after your uncle reported his symptoms after the first dose, the doctor injected him with saline?Where did your uncle get the second dose from, then? Or are you saying that your uncle died after the saline injection?

author: Postal2
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2024, 01:42:59 pm
content: Quote from: ebastler on July 28, 2024, 01:32:41 pmI didn't say that LCD has a big harm. But when a programmer works for many hours, the harm becomes noticeable. Once there were monitors with green text, as a result of a study of harm.

author: vad
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2024, 01:47:13 pm
content: Quote from: Postal2 on July 28, 2024, 01:05:36 pmThank you for confirming the current state of the medical profession in Mother Russia. I always knew it is filled with many poorly educated, poorly trained, and immoral individuals who are paid what they deserve.

author: Postal2
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2024, 01:57:00 pm
content: Quote from: vad on July 28, 2024, 01:47:13 pmYou are right. But my observations show that it is the same everywhere. It is not even known where it is worse.Quote from: zilp on July 28, 2024, 01:34:02 pmYou can't even give an example of one important person who has been working on vaccines all their life and praised the covid vaccination. Only comments from people who have no idea about the problem. These comments are for fools who will listen with their mouths open.

author: zilp
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2024, 02:01:06 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on July 28, 2024, 01:32:20 pmFirst that still doesn't make the Covid19 vaccines medical experimentation, so the Nuremberg Code in so far is almost entirely irrelevant.Then, purposefully infecting someone with a potentially deadly virus is also a pretty violent act.That is why it is necessary to balance these two rights against one another.So far, you haven't done anything to do that.If all you wanted to say was that vaccine mandates violate human rights, then that is trivially true, of course.But that is completely trivial, because the interesting question is not whether a vaccine mandate violates human rights, but how you balance that with other human rights of other humans that are affected when you come close to them while not being vaccinated.

author: vad
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2024, 02:09:42 pm
content: Quote from: Postal2 on July 28, 2024, 01:57:00 pmMy observation is that in the countries where I have lived, medical doctors do not administer vaccination injections.To stay on topic, an individual found injecting normal saline instead of vaccine in China would probably be jailed for a long time. And during the COVID epidemic, they might face execution.

author: zilp
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2024, 02:16:24 pm
content: Quote from: Postal2 on July 28, 2024, 01:57:00 pmIt is interesting that you seem to know that without ever even having asked me.Also, somehow you seem to constantly forget to tell me what vaccine you are even talking about, or how you know that your uncle died from vaccination, or to answer basically any questions that I am asking. One could almost get the impression that you aren't actually interested in what is true.

author: Postal2
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2024, 02:18:08 pm
content: Quote from: ebastler on July 28, 2024, 02:02:28 pmWhat you say is empty talk. I have an opinion, you got it. Your opinion will interest me only when I see a sound thought in it. Likewise, you may not accept my opinion, but I see no point in proving it.Quote from: vad on July 28, 2024, 02:09:42 pmI know. Your injections are given by hired people from the street with dirty hands.Quote from: zilp on July 28, 2024, 02:16:24 pmYour conversation is empty and has no meaning except to engage me in a useless argument.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2024, 02:20:33 pm
content: Quote from: zilp on July 28, 2024, 02:01:06 pmHow was injecting people with a gene therapy that turned their own body into a vaccine factory, in a poorly controlled manner, which had not worked well once in all the experiments between the 1980s and 2018, not experimentation? They didn't even inject natural mRNA, so you couldn't use a "natural product" kind of argument. All the uridine had been been replaced with something else, to reduce some of the side effects they kept getting in mRNA experiments. Whatever you think of the rights and wrongs of using these vaccines, they were most definitely experimenting on people.

author: BrokenYugo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2024, 02:32:47 pm
content: You would think this place of all places would be above anti science conspiracy bullshit.

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2024, 02:35:40 pm
content: Quote from: Kim Christensen on July 25, 2024, 05:24:58 pmThe political dimension was entirely absent from Japan's rise, despite their role in WW2 they weren't really seen as a security threat.Putin has brought 30 years of post cold war globalist ideology come crumbling down.

author: zilp
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2024, 02:38:13 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on July 28, 2024, 02:20:33 pmPlease explain which vaccine you think is a gene therapy and why you think that it is a gene therapy.Also, why are you giving a cut-off date of 2018, given that the vaccines for a disease that appeared in 2019 obviously was tested after 2018? Like, is there a specific reason why you are excluding the test of the vaccines in question themselves when trying to support your claim that things didn't work well?Quote from: coppice on July 28, 2024, 02:20:33 pmIs there any medical treatment that you would not consider experimentation on people?Also, I just want to point out what you are shifting goal posts. Before, you were claiming that people's human rights were violated with vaccination mandates. Now, you are only talking about one specific vaccine technology, even though vaccines based on other technologies were available, so noone was required to use these specific vaccines.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2024, 02:55:03 pm
content: Quote from: zilp on July 28, 2024, 02:38:13 pmIf you asked anyone at Moderna in 2018 what they were experimenting with that would have said it was a gene therapy that makes your body produce vaccine. Suddenly in 2020 they reclassified it as a vaccine, to make it sound like traditional and well proven technoloigy.Quote from: zilp on July 28, 2024, 02:38:13 pmThe latest things I've seen about experiments with mRNA vaccines prior to the COVID one are from 2017 and 2018.Quote from: zilp on July 28, 2024, 02:38:13 pmReal vaccines, of a type with a long safety track record, launched after full scale trials, and used with a proper authorisation, rather than an emergency one, aren't experiments. They still need to be used with care, though. We dodged a bullet with a fairly conventional swine flu vaccine that turned out to have horrible consequences not picked up during trials. Luckily it was not widely used.Quote from: zilp on July 28, 2024, 02:38:13 pmHow many people were able to choose which vaccine type they got? In the UK we had the Astra Zeneca vaccine, which was another new technology, but that seemed to have problems, and was withdrawn. After that we only had the Moderna and Pfizer mRNA vaccines available here. As far as I know problems with the J&J vaccine in the US lead to only the mRNA ones being available there, too.There wasn't just one problem with the way governments ignored decades of pandemic planning, and went rogue. There were quite a few.

author: vad
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2024, 02:58:55 pm
content: Quote from: Postal2 on July 28, 2024, 02:18:08 pmAlso not my experience. Typically, I saw nurses and pharmacists doing this job. The latter in the US only.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2024, 03:03:41 pm
content: Quote from: vad on July 28, 2024, 02:58:55 pmApart from GPs, most doctors perform so few injections, blooding samplings, and other operations with hypodermic needles that they are terrible at it. Its almost always nurses.

author: Postal2
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2024, 03:18:18 pm
content: Quote from: vad on July 28, 2024, 02:58:55 pmI don't know how exactly the nursing courses are organized, but for some reason women who could barely read and weren't familiar with a water closet were getting licensed very quickly.Quote from: coppice on July 28, 2024, 03:03:41 pmI draw your attention to the fact that they were taught this very persistently, and even if they learned it poorly, then what can be expected?A professor of medicine performed a blockade of my knee joint with a large needle, but for some reason he didn’t call a nurse to do it.

author: vad
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2024, 03:22:06 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on July 28, 2024, 03:03:41 pmOn this side of the pond, GPs (called PCPs here), surrounded by nurses, nurse practitioners and physician assistants, are too lazy and delegate giving the shots to other professionals.

author: vad
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2024, 03:40:38 pm
content: Quote from: Postal2 on July 28, 2024, 03:18:18 pmThe courses are called university degree programs.Unlike in Russia, where university is often seen as a place where kids starting from around age 17 learn how to drink vodka and pass exams without prior study while evading national service, a university in the rest of the world is an institution of higher education. It is a place where you can study a wide range of subjects in science or arts, and it can open up advanced career opportunities in fields such as nursing.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2024, 03:44:03 pm
content: Quote from: vad on July 28, 2024, 03:40:38 pmWow, that sounds grand. In most countries Universities are in the sand paper business (for those not familiar with that term, it means a piece of paper that smooths away the obstacles in your life). An education is largely optional.

author: vad
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2024, 04:04:39 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on July 28, 2024, 03:44:03 pmSeveral professions require a license to practice, including nursing. Professional associations typically issue these licenses based on criteria such as completing a degree from an accredited university.

author: Postal2
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2024, 04:10:16 pm
content: Quote from: vad on July 28, 2024, 03:40:38 pmFrom 13! (my experience)Quote from: coppice on July 28, 2024, 03:44:03 pmIt sounds good, but in reality it's mostly a lie. Elon Musk had to come from South Africa to raise the average a little bit.

author: zilp
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2024, 04:13:52 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on July 28, 2024, 02:55:03 pmDo you have any source to support that claim? (Both that they earlier called mRNA vaccines gene therapies, and that the reason why they changed that was "to make it sound like traditional and well proven technoloigy")Also, why do you think that the former classification was more accurate than the current one?Quote from: coppice on July 28, 2024, 02:55:03 pmYou did notice that that doesn't answer my question?Quote from: coppice on July 28, 2024, 02:55:03 pmI am not sure I understand what your argument is.As you yourself write, other vaccine technologies with a long track record at times go horribly wrong. Why would that be a reason to prefer those?That especially so given that you yourself also name as the primary problem with mRNA vaccine research in the past was lacking effectiveness, not lack of safety, so it's not like mRNA vaccines had no safety track record--even if you discard a vaccine because it isn't effective, the trial still builds safety track record, after all.Also, it is unclear to me what you consider "full scale trials" or "proper authorisation", or why you think that "emergency authorisation" makes somehow a binary difference between "experimentation" and "not experimentation".I mean, no vaccine is guaranteed to be 100% safe, you yourself giving a prominent example. No amount of clinical trials can change that. Now, of course, in some sense, every vaccination, just like every other medical treatment, is an experiment of sorts, in that you never know whether in that one patient you will suddenly see some side effect that was never seen before, or that was never tied to the treatment as the cause, and that every application of the treatment thus contributes to figuring out just how safe a treatment is, and under which conditions it is dangerous. So the difference between "experimental" treatments and "tested and approved" treatments is unavoidably somewhat arbitrary, in that the experts who do that kind of work analyze statistically what the remaining risks are, and then declare things "tested and approved" once the calculated risk is lower than some selected threshold.Now, as far as I can tell, the only difference between a "normal authorization" and an "emergency authorization" is how high you set that threshold. I.e., when there is an ongoing pandemic where people are dying in large numbers, plus all the other bad effects from infections, a higher risk for a treatment is considered acceptable, because waiting for a lower threshold to be reached itself has a risk for people.But that also is nothing fundamentally special about emergency authorizations. If you try to get a new treatment authorized that shortens the common cold by a day (i.e., where the risks from the illness itself are essentially non-existent), you'll have to meet a much stricter risk standard than if you try to get a treatment authorized that cures some highly aggressive cancer. If the former kills one of a thousand users, that would be completely inacceptable. If the latter kills one in ten, that might be perfectly acceptable.Of course, you couldn't know for absolutely certain whether any of the vaccines would turn out to have some bad long-term effects. But you couldn't know the same about the illness itself, which obviously was to be expected to infect everyone rather sooner than later. And looking back, long covid seems to be a much larger problem than damages from vaccination. That is why emergency authorizations are a thing.Quote from: coppice on July 28, 2024, 02:55:03 pmOver here, people could get either of those vaccines if they really wanted. Like, not every vaccine was necessarily available everywhere at any time, but you should have been able to find the one you wanted if you had a preference.Of course, as more data came in and the virus mutated, availability of vaccines changed, but IIRC, when vaccination mandates were relevant, you still had the choice.Quote from: coppice on July 28, 2024, 02:55:03 pmWell, that might be true or not ... but isn't really relevant here, is it?

author: Postal2
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2024, 04:28:09 pm
content: Regarding vaccines, I will give a small example. When in Russia they loudly announced that the virus had been decoded, it turned out that it was done by a schoolboy on a smartphone with a cheap testing attachment. In other countries, the story is probably similar, it’s just that the information is hidden more carefully from the stupid population.Then the same people offer you a vaccine...

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2024, 04:36:02 pm
content: QuoteYou said I was shifting the goal posts. I said there are multiple goal posts. You say that's not relevant. You are just a troll. Bye.

author: vad
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2024, 04:36:46 pm
content: Quote from: Postal2 on July 28, 2024, 04:28:09 pmCould you provide a reference to a related article in a peer-reviewed medical journal, such as Lancet, New England Journal of Medicine, JAMA, or similar? A Russian journal would be Ok, I am a native speaker.

author: Postal2
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2024, 04:44:57 pm
content: Quote from: vad on July 28, 2024, 04:36:46 pmhttps://tvspb.ru/programs/stories/491565https://78.ru/articles/2020-03-22/borba-s-covid19-v-nii-grippa-rasshifrovali-polnii-genom-koronavirusaYou need to go to the website of the flu institute, you can find this employee there, he just graduated from school. He described how he did it.

author: zilp
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2024, 04:47:48 pm
content: Quote from: Postal2 on July 28, 2024, 04:28:09 pmAre you saying that you think that the sequence of the Covid 19 virus is not actually known?

author: Postal2
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2024, 04:55:27 pm
content: Quote from: zilp on July 28, 2024, 04:47:48 pmThe sequence is known. But no one knows for sure how it works. If you read monographs on influenza, half of the known virus structures are described as "purpose unknown."

author: vad
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2024, 05:04:59 pm
content: Quote from: Postal2 on July 28, 2024, 04:44:57 pmNot a peer-reviewed journal, but news site. A fresh graduate was able to use genetic sequencing equipment. I was apparently wrong about what students are taught in Russian universities. Apparently graduates can operate imported Western scientific equipment. Kudos to the university, and I apologize for my previous assumption.

author: Postal2
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2024, 05:22:35 pm
content: Quote from: vad on July 28, 2024, 05:04:59 pmHe is the only one! In a whole institute of talentless people!

author: Phil1977
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2024, 05:44:21 pm
content: Seriously, I got vaccinated with three of this early medications: With AstraZeneca (you knew there was a small risk of cordial disease, but at this time it was seen as less relevant as COVID), with Biontech and with Moderna. I don't say there are no side effects because experience of one person just doesn't count for that. But I was always sure, with very credible confirmation of scientific experts, that these vaccinations are not more than some triggering of normal functions of the human immune system. It´s no gen therapy nor anything experimental.People really did a lot of stupid things during the pandemic. But trying to find a quick vaccination was a highlight of science and society.

author: Postal2
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2024, 05:50:10 pm
content: Quote from: Phil1977 on July 28, 2024, 05:44:21 pmNot science and society, but a couple of schoolchildren who knew a little about something.Just like there is no AMD processor, but there is a processor that was invented single-handedly by Keller.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2024, 07:27:50 pm
content: Quote from: Phil1977 on July 28, 2024, 05:44:21 pmSo, in what situation does your body naturally get triggered to produce the spike protein that characterises the COVID virus? That's what Biontech and Moderna do. They turn your body into a spike protein factory, and your immune systems then trains on the spike protein. An interesting thing, though, is people with natural immunity to SARS1, from 2003, still had a strong immune reaction to the somewhat similar SARS2 in 2020. The vaccinated, on the other hand have rapidly fading immunity without boosters, as the synthetic immunity doesn't seem to result in properly trained immune memory cells, that give long term immunity to disease as the short term cells die off.

author: zilp
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2024, 07:38:22 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on July 28, 2024, 07:27:50 pmWhen you are infected with SARS-CoV 2.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2024, 08:34:50 pm
content: Quote from: zilp on July 28, 2024, 07:38:22 pmHey troll, when did SARS-CoV2 make your body produce the spike protein as a protein, rather than as a component of a complete virus?

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 28, 2024, 08:41:14 pm
content: Quote from: Phil1977 on July 25, 2024, 06:45:26 amMy motto is don't buy from china or germany! I have a car, it's german, It's worse than what I thought was french garbage (it had a serious safety issue but otherwiseo trumps the german one).China works like this: you get what you pay for and you have to monitor the crap out of it or they will cut corners. German stuff is just made in china and a big hulabaloo made about german design and it turns out to be as bad as chinese. Poorly thought out and obviously as cheap as possible in manufacture but now being german, it's expensive.Oh I have a whole list of items but can't be bothered to reel them off now, I have an appointment with bed time and my wife.Suffice to say, that as a german you sure don't want to be bashing china, or you loose your life line. Mind you anything that comes with a british flag all over it is a pass too, these products are also just made in the PRC because these toffs are dim enough to think that we are dim enough to not know what the PRC is!At work I started using a "swiss" servo motor company, strange that their 1kW motors are a size bigger than THE swiss manufacturer, oh but what do you know? they co own a chinese factory.....

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2024, 08:45:38 pm
content: People really do operate (their own) perceptions, according to a maybe vaque 'Smell Test'. Imperfect, but other earlier posts here refer to 'emotions' entering into perceptions.Ask any parent, of teenage kids, attempting to detect lies. Ask any really skilled CARD players or casino players.They will laugh, if you try to ignore some intuitive call as not scientific."See...I TOLD YOU, he holding 3 aces, at the casino table..." They might say, at your naive dismissal."See, I TOLD YOU, something was up, with 16 year old daughter; Suzy. Now, she's pregnant."In this light, I'm saying many government announcements did not pass 'The SMELL Test', when they all, in lock-step, would preface the latest 'rules', to be imposed, said:"Now look; We have had almost 1 million DEATHS, (678,090), and so better lock down this, lock-down that...""Now look, we have now had ALMOST 2 million DEATHS, (1,000,001 actual), and so get your shot, or else...".Those types of hyped up dictates just never passed the old, SMELL TEST. Just felt so honey that you, maybe, wanted to see more facts, more actual common sense, before you accept the dictates coming down.Even my post, here, right now, is going through 'Smell test filters' as people read. My reputation and demeanor enter into the split-second filter.Of course some folks employ that kind of 'filter' with more skill, than others.

author: zilp
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2024, 08:53:14 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on July 28, 2024, 08:34:50 pmThe spike protein doesn't stop being a protein when it is part of a virus. That is also why it is called a spikeprotein, you know.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2024, 09:57:52 pm
content: Quote from: zilp on July 28, 2024, 08:53:14 pmYeah, troll, a handful of components has exactly the same behaviour as a completed product built from them.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2024, 10:28:17 pm
content: 3... 2... 1....

author: Andy Chee
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2024, 10:33:46 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on July 28, 2024, 09:57:52 pmEven with an actual viral infection with SARS-Cov-2, only the spike protein component of the virus triggers anything in the body's natural immune response.

author: jpanhalt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2024, 12:27:51 am
content: Quote from: Andy Chee on July 28, 2024, 10:33:46 pmNot quite accurate. The spike protein is significant and was an easy target to prevent infection. As pointed out in the second citation, other targets that do not undergo such rapid mutation may be useful in the long term.2020 Study of antibodies produced:https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7217240/2022 Study of SARS-CoV-2 proteins and potential other targets:https://www.nature.com/articles/s41392-022-00884-5#:~:text=SARS%2DCoV%2D2%20encodes%20sixteen,%2Dmembrane%20vesicles%20(DMVs).

author: jonovid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2024, 02:26:35 am
content: 50 minute video is a unique insight into today's China.this isNot the China of ten years agowhen vocal critics of China, vloggerslaowhy86- C-Milk & WinstonSerpentZAlived there.but in this 2024 video-see were most of the worlds electric bikes e-scooters & other electric vehicles are manufactured, including all the electronics& component testing. a lot of rebadging or rebranding of Chinese electric bikes by big western e-bike brands!.also get an insight into today's Chinese bullet trains & 2024 fast food culture.

author: zilp
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2024, 03:34:22 am
content: Quote from: coppice on July 28, 2024, 09:57:52 pmI'll tell you a secret: You asked, I quote, "what situation does your body naturally get triggered to produce the spike protein that characterises the COVID virus". You obviously can't know that, that's why I am telling you. Notice how it doesn't say anything about " exactly the same behaviour as a completed product built from them"?Fun fact: I answer the questions you ask. That's what trolls do, I suppose, because it's obviously the most destructive behaviour possible in a conversation to answer the question that was asked rather than jump all over the place while ignoring most of what the other person has said, as serious people would do.

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2024, 05:20:33 am
content: Have we discovered a newGodwin's law?The longer a discussion involving China in any form becomes, the more likely it will devolve into a flamewar about COVID-19 and related mRNA-based medicine controversies.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 29, 2024, 06:17:16 am
content: Quote from: Nominal Animal on July 29, 2024, 05:20:33 amcorrect

author: Phil1977
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2024, 06:18:28 am
content: Quote from: Nominal Animal on July 29, 2024, 05:20:33 amI think Godwin was already perfectly reconfirmed by mentioning nazi experiments. Does anyone need more confirmation? Or may we close this thread for good?

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2024, 06:58:58 am
content: Oh FFS, spotted this thread a few days back and it's turned into a Spicy Flu argument.Lock it NOW !But before I go, after 11 years dealing very closely with our Asian friends, I have not a bad word to utter against them.You all need know, in case you already didn't, greedy western conglomerates empowered many Asian countries in their search for cheap labor and increased profits for their shareholders.......with total disregard for their local employees. GM's got big bonuses too, shifting their production offshore.Look at the previous booming manufacturing town/cities worldwide that are now only ghosts of their past.Seriously, whom would blame the Asians for grabbing these opportunities, handed to them on a plate.

author: abeyer
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2024, 07:07:28 am
content: Quote from: tautech on July 29, 2024, 06:58:58 amWas worth keeping it around for that comment, but otherwise is well past its thread lock time.

author: Postal2
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2024, 07:32:11 am
content: I am attracted to themes of corporate greed and global dumbing down. The topic of Covid is exactly about this. The thing is that adenine, guanine, cytosine, thymine - this is the school curriculum in biology and organic chemistry. You can quickly differ when a person talking about Covid did not go to school.

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2024, 07:44:21 am
content: Technically, I don't like it when threads are locked. They feel to me like rooms with glass walls with a "YOUARE NOT ALLOWED IN HERE" sign on the door.I prefer to just step away, and ignore the thread, letting it die the natural way. If someone would try to rope me back in, I'd tell them to back off, but that's never happened. To help myself forget the mess, I'd add the members that would remind/irk me too much about that thread to my ignore list for a couple of weeks, until I feel I can interact with them again without that baggage.Then again, I'd make for a horribly bad moderator, so to be honest, I really don't know what Dave or the moderators should do here.As to China Bashing, I am impressed JLCPCB quality-and-service to price ratio, but also know not to buy stuff I need to rely on (like wall warts and electronics components) from random Chinese sellers on eBay/AliExpress/Temu (unless I have a definite reason to trust the seller). To me, "One Hung Lo" moniker is just a variant of "dude selling stereos from the back of a white van", except with more humour. (And the latter is actually more iffy in my opinion, because those goods are often stolen, instead of swept off the factory floor or picked from garbage.) To me, it does not imply that all Chinese sellers do that at all; any negativity in my mind is aboutmycountry and culture making that kind of a business niche a profitable one in the first place. Unless we start to talk about what in my country is impacted by Chinese politics or culture, it is useless/irrelevant for me to talk about politics or culture here; and because many Finnish members here disagree on my views about Finnish politics or culture, it'd be very difficult for anyone else to map the reasons for my opinions to at least minimally useful form to them... It'd just be politically charged idle chatting. As I'd love to do something more fun and useful, I try to keep away from that kind of time wastage. As to mRNA-based medicine, I mostly trustThe Lancetand other peer-reviewed articles and not officials and politicians. As a standard practice, I ignore all statements from politicians and officials that explain how and why they have never ever made any errors or mistakes and direct any blame elsewhere or call any other inferences/opinions/evaluations misinformation or conspiracy theories, or that explain whythis timethe same actions that have always failed in the past will somehow miraculously succeed. They are just trying to get their pay/winnings and avoid blame so they can enjoy the fruits of their exploits in peace.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2024, 07:50:31 am
content: Quote from: Nominal Animal on July 29, 2024, 07:44:21 amPleased you describe it as such, a vaccine it is not !

author: zilp
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2024, 07:55:00 am
content: Quote from: tautech on July 29, 2024, 07:50:31 amWhy not?

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2024, 08:00:45 am
content: Quote from: zilp on July 29, 2024, 07:55:00 amhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VaccineQuoteWe expect vaccines to offer full protection against disease, those offered to combat Spicy Flu do not.

author: zilp
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2024, 08:10:02 am
content: Quote from: tautech on July 29, 2024, 08:00:45 amI want to draw your attention to the word "some" in the quote that you provided. This means that the predicate that follows that word in the sentence applies to a subset of the objects being referenced, in this case a subset of vaccines. This in particular means that that quote does not say that sterile immunity is an effect provided by all vaccines, but rather a subset of vaccines, which in particular implies that vaccines can exist that don't provide sterilizing immunity.So, do you have any other reason for why mRNA vaccines are not vaccines, that isn't based on a source that contradicts your claim?

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2024, 08:12:17 am
content: Quote from: zilp on July 29, 2024, 07:55:00 amBecause the technical definition of "vaccine" had to be modified for it to apply to them. In particular, they only need to provide some reduction in the probability of "immunity" against further infection by the same SARS-CoV-2 virus, to be called "vaccines" under the new definition. If we apply say year 2000 definitions and international requirements, none of the mRNA-based ones fulfill the vaccine definition requirements (especially the 50% immunization requirement).The proper term (instead of "vaccine") ismRNA therapeutics.Now, don't rope me in, becausetherapeuticis the medically and scientifically proper term (and includes any future mRNA-based vaccines too), with "mRNA-basedmedicine" even a much wider term that does not cause intuitive inferences in conflict with the proper term and its meaning: neither excludes vaccines. I myself have both recommended them and recommended against them when close ones have asked my own opinion (for age 65+ yes to first dose, no to everyone else in basic good health, the rest on a case-by-case basis); and I fully stand behind those suggestions now with the statistical results of various approaches being somewhat available. It is also not a simple issue at all, with both patient genetics, protein folding due to replication errors, the spike protein itself being toxic (to heart muscle cells), and fast mass manufacturing issues leading to quality issues involved in the soup.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2024, 08:20:43 am
content: Quote from: Nominal Animal on July 29, 2024, 08:12:17 amResearch here demonstrates otherwise.At 63 I had a heart attack not long after mRNA therapeutics taken to combat the threat of travel restrictions and I'm not about to have another mRNA therapeutic as long as I live.PPL, you've been sucked in by big Pharma and Gubbermintswhen you run a higher risk of dying from Pneumonia than the Spicy Flu.

author: zilp
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2024, 08:42:04 am
content: Quote from: Nominal Animal on July 29, 2024, 08:12:17 amSo, silicon diodes aren't diodes, then?And also ... essentially no vaccine is a vaccine, because the original definition was the infection with cowpox, where "vacca" is latin for "cow", hence "vaccination"? Using pieces of influenza viruses bred in chicken eggs certainly can't be vaccines, given that no cows are involved!I mean, seriously, why would the fact that experts changed a definition to fit technological developments that weren't foreseen when the original definition was written, be a reason for laypeople to stick to the old definition as "more correct"?Quote from: Nominal Animal on July 29, 2024, 08:12:17 amOK ... so? What is lacking here is a justification for why the old definition should be the preferred definition.Quote from: Nominal Animal on July 29, 2024, 08:12:17 amI mean, not that that is a wrong term, I guess, but the specific therapeutic also happens to be a vaccine, as far as I can tell, and so far you haven't explained why not.

author: Postal2
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2024, 08:45:42 am
content: Quote from: Nominal Animal on July 29, 2024, 08:12:17 amIn my opinion, it affects the brain as well. Elon Musk needs a double dose.

author: zilp
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2024, 08:58:57 am
content: Quote from: tautech on July 29, 2024, 08:20:43 amHow do you know that that heart attack was because of the vaccine, assuming that that is what you are implying here?(And not, for example, because of a SARS-CoV-2 infection, as one of many possible causes.)Also, given that your conclusion is to not use any further mRNA therapeutics, and assuming that the vaccine was indeed the cause for your heart attack: How did you determine that the relevant component was the "mRNA" part of the vaccine and not the "SARS-CoV-2 spike protein" part? After all, it wouldn't make a whole lot of sense to avoid mRNA therapeutics when the cause for your problems was a thing that is not in any other mRNA therapeutics, would it?Quote from: tautech on July 29, 2024, 08:20:43 amCan you be more specific? Like, what are the numbers that you are deriving this conclusion from?

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2024, 09:28:12 am
content: Quote from: zilp on July 29, 2024, 08:42:04 amHave you stopped beating your wife yet?(It isyouwho insist calling the devicessilicon diodes, whereas I'm usingdiodes(therapeutics) orsemiconductors(x-based medicine). As the devices aren't composed of mostly silicon, I do not believe the term "silicon diode" even applies.)Quote from: zilp on July 29, 2024, 08:42:04 amBecause dropping the minimum 50% immunity requirement was not done by experts, it was solely done by politicians (and civil servants on behalf of politicians) with no expert or scientist involvement.I do trust the scientists and experts as much as one can trust humans in general for anything (we all err, we all have biases, and so on).I do not trust politicians and civil servants acting on behalf of politicians to set the definition of "vaccine".Quote from: zilp on July 29, 2024, 08:42:04 amSimply put: I am happy and willing to inject myself with something that gives me at least a 50% immunity against something dangerous –– assuming that I'm given sufficient information about the risk and side effects, and the possibility of suing the manufacturer if they lie. The new definition breaks the first, and the deals the politicians made (with zero expert advice) with the manufacturing companies in the EU prohibit the second.Dropping the 50% immunization requirement was not a medical decision, it was a political one, and that alone is enough for the old definition to be preferable to the new one.Quote from: tautech on July 29, 2024, 08:20:43 amPerhaps; this is my opinion based on the currently available statistics. Anecdotally, I do not personally know any 65+ who took more than one dose who do not suffer from cardiovascular issues, but I suppose it could be sampling bias, or muddling correlation with causation.The science as to the spike protein itself being toxic to heart muscle cells and causing severe clotting issues if entering vascular wall cells, could easily change my opinion. The related research is still ongoing.Quote from: Postal2 on July 29, 2024, 08:45:42 amActually, it is extremely unlikely it could pass the blood-brain barrier at all. Vascular wall cells and heart muscles are currently known to bedamaged bysusceptible to damage fromthe spike protein, but the spike protein itself just isn't researched widely enough yet (its effect in different kinds of tissues, instead of just at the single-cell level). For example, research into its interaction with pluripotent stem cells (in e.g. umbilical blood) and the effect on the resulting differentiated cells will reveal a lot more, when some high-skill team gathers enough courage (as this can risk their future funding sources) to find out.

author: Postal2
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2024, 09:48:24 am
content: Quote from: Nominal Animal on July 29, 2024, 09:28:12 amIt will be a couple of schoolchildren skipping classes. I already gave an example. What other "highly qualified teams"? It's just a bunch of parasites, appropriating other people's achievements (as in my example).

author: zilp
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2024, 10:01:06 am
content: Quote from: Nominal Animal on July 29, 2024, 09:28:12 amLet me explain the analogy: "diode" was (I think?) a name coined for two-terminal tubes. That definition was then later changed to also include semiconductor devices due to similar application. If it's wrong to change definitions, then we shouldn't be calling silicon diodes diodes, but only by their "correct" name, that is, rectifiers. Light emitting rectifiers and all that.Quote from: Nominal Animal on July 29, 2024, 09:28:12 amWho wrote the previous definition?Quote from: Nominal Animal on July 29, 2024, 09:28:12 amOK. And why shouldn't we call particular treatments that you don't want to take "vaccines"? Like, if that is a criterion that you use to decide which treatments to take, that's fine with me, but I don't see how it follows that we therefore then shouldn't still call the treatments that you reject "vaccines"!? Like, you still haven't explained why the old definition was a better definition, you just have told us that you personally use the old definition to decide which treatments you are willing to take.Quote from: Nominal Animal on July 29, 2024, 09:28:12 amHow does the new definition break you being happy and willing to inject yourself with treatments that fall under the old definition? Or how does it prevent you from being given sufficient information about the risks and side effects? Are you trying to say that it is not publicly known that the SARS-CoV-2 vaccines don't provide sterilizing immunity? Or ... what?Quote from: Nominal Animal on July 29, 2024, 09:28:12 amDo you have a source for that?It seems rather surprising to me that it would be possible to limit liability towards third parties in a contract!?

author: Phil1977
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2024, 11:07:43 am
content: Quote from: Postal2 on July 29, 2024, 09:48:24 amThis really is an offensive and very short sighted statement.The founders of Biontech are a very down to earth scientist couple who worked for a decade BEFORE the pandemic on this class of medication with a large experts team and already had an absolutely normal approval for their medical product of mRNA before Corona. When the pandemic spread they modified their product as fast as possible to fight covid - and of course they got a lot of money to do it.Of course, there is all this conspirational bullshit out there. But please don't be so dumb to fall for it.

author: Postal2
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2024, 11:28:43 am
content: Quote from: Phil1977 on July 29, 2024, 11:07:43 amI gave a specific and confirmed example, when a schoolboy came with a smartphone to the institute, where the Great Scientists sit, and did everything.In the same way, Keller came and made a processor.I don’t know about Biontech, but you speak about it in the same words as propaganda about the Great Scientists, who, working as a close-knit team, deciphered the virus.

author: Phil1977
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2024, 11:48:08 am
content: Quote from: Postal2 on July 29, 2024, 11:28:43 amThe difference is that the Biontech story is easy to proof - just read the publications they made BEFORE corona inside the scientific community. And I can tell by many first hand experiences that scientific communities are very averse to political propaganda stuff, there are just to many people of different nations and different political orientation working together and have one thing in mind: Creating knowledge.And by no doubt there are cases where more or less external people had great inventions, sometimes you even need the "naive" ideas of an outsider. BUT: Making a new class of medication or just even to keep the scientific topic alive for decades is never the merit of a single person. If you want to believe it or not, that´s hard work and its teamwork.

author: Postal2
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2024, 12:05:19 pm
content: Quote from: Phil1977 on July 29, 2024, 11:48:08 amAs soon as I see "they" - I immediately suspect that it was done by one person, and perhaps not included in the list. I have read publications signed by one person. Previously, this was called a "monograph", but the desire to latch on to someone else's is so great that even this was changed.Okay. Have you ever seen a machine that cuts stumps with a conical cutter that moves sideways? My father invented and designed this machine, but the list of authors includes 20 people who had nothing to do with it.Until you have developed some technology yourself, it is difficult for you to understand that there is no such thing as a "team". There is one person.

author: Xena E
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2024, 12:20:28 pm
content: Quote from: Nominal Animal on July 29, 2024, 09:28:12 amWhatever the situation there's always a rush to be the first and win the biggest slice of the pie, and with the paymasters pushing for results there are always likely to be cock-ups.Case study:End 2020 subject female, 32 years, 105lb/48kg. Active. BP at rest 100/70After two doses of Astra Zeneca during 2021, began to experience leg pains and heart palpitations, pain in feet legs and hands, end of year 2021.Beginning of 2022 weight 100lbs/46kg. Unable to walk 1mile without effort. BP at rest 150/105Diagnosed with Atrial tachycardia early 2022, and circulatory problems in legs.Doctors wouldn't make any connection with the injections but advised against boosters.Make of that what you will.Regards.X

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2024, 12:43:47 pm
content: Quote from: Postal2 on July 29, 2024, 11:28:43 amYou seem deeply cynical and wary of many things in life and society. Maybe this has to do with the society you live in. But then, seeing that you are also distrustful of LCD displays and prefer to take a 1978 car magazine writeup as gospel on polarized light, maybe it has to do with you?

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2024, 12:52:51 pm
content: My head hurts, just after reading multiples of replies, here. Yes, I am guilty, of being up the basic subject. All started with Phil1977 starting down the road, of 'China human rights, of their workers'....(technology supply chain,....remember). So, I felt obligated to unbash China, by pointing out human rights in (U.S.A) aren't good enough that we can bash China only, as if China is the only offender.Bringing up the COVID mandates was a bad move, even though a valid point.But now, my head hurts reading these posts, especially laden with numerous double-negatives, and genetic references. Supposed to be about ELECTRONICS SUPPLY, here.It's the sentences containing numerous negative assertions that are hard to parse, although somewhat humorous. Making me squint as I read....

author: Wallace Gasiewicz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2024, 01:03:10 pm
content: Quote from: Postal2 onTodayat 07:32:11 amAdenosine, Cytidine, Guanosine and Uridine are the building blocks of Messenger RNA.But it is Modified RNA in the "Vaccine": SO PseudoUridine is used instead of Uridine in Modified RNA . Or change any other nucleoside.Please note that "Modified RNA" is different from "Messenger RNA" but the abbreviationThe termmRNAwhich previously was used ONLY for Messenger RNA is now used for Modified RNA. It really should be calledmodRNAas in the past. The nomenclature has been made confusing. This is My Opinion. Modified RNA is artificial, not found in nature.

author: Postal2
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2024, 01:05:15 pm
content: Quote from: ebastler on July 29, 2024, 12:43:47 pmWhen various idiots first started picking on me, it was a long time ago, I couldn't understand what was going on. It turns out that a poorly performing student chooses a well-performing one in order to take it out on him and assert himself.

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2024, 01:11:46 pm
content: Quote from: Xena E on July 29, 2024, 12:20:28 pmKeep monitoring your legs for blockages, especially anything indicating lack of blood flow. There are some indications that if the spike protein is produced by vein wall cells, blockages (as in literal clotting) can occur in interaction with fibrinogen somehow.I didn't know you're a young'un!Quote from: zilp on July 29, 2024, 10:01:06 amAnd I'm not going go, either. I simply explained why I used a specific term, and described details anyone can examine (via the link I provided, preferably, the Lancet being quite reliable and with a two-century tradition to keep, as far as scientific publications go). I'm not here to convince you, or debate opinions.Quote from: zilp on July 29, 2024, 10:01:06 amIt is all in the public record, and you'd know that if you had read them (at europa.eu) instead of trusting the opinion of someone who claims having read them.No matter what links I'd provide, you'd call them unreliable or unauthoritative or not supporting my argument, so I won't bother; I'm not here to convince you or anyone else, just showing what my own opinion is based on. The opinion itself is at best an afterthought; of very little value to anyone.As you don't bother to provide any basis for your own opinions that you present as facts, I don't think anyone else should bother responding to your pseudo-arguments with factual references either: this is discussion, not a game. (And I use "pseudo-argument" here in the sense Chaim Perelman originally coined it.)

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2024, 01:28:02 pm
content: (I know there is no compulsion, to read and follow this shi7, actually entertaining, in a lame way, and generates more clicks)I'm refraining from stopping hoping, that arguments that avoid skipping facts, about messinger Rna not being used or cases where modifications have not been skipped ....are valid.(That's why you aren't stupid).The text above is my take on trying read the posts, that are mired in double negatives, (or more literally peppered with negatives on top of negatives, on top of ....).But, humorously, the ACTUAL posts, here, are much better, at being hard to read and understand, than any PARODY that I can do.It's just that I don't wish to directly insult anybody, here....no point in doing that!

author: zilp
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2024, 01:36:29 pm
content: Quote from: Nominal Animal on July 29, 2024, 01:11:46 pmThe weird thing is that when I ask people who claim to have read them to provide the source, they refuse to do so.Quote from: Nominal Animal on July 29, 2024, 01:11:46 pmAre you saying that you intended to provide evidence that is unreliable or unauthoritative or not supporting your argument? Why would you do that?Quote from: Nominal Animal on July 29, 2024, 01:11:46 pmI don't remember you asking for any further support for any claim that I made?! Did I miss something? Feel free to point me to what I missed ...

author: zilp
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2024, 02:18:21 pm
content: Quote from: Nominal Animal on July 29, 2024, 01:11:46 pmFor anyone reading here who maybe has not figured out yet why this is bullshit and why Nominal Animal is lashing out against me instead of doing the obvious thing of providing sources for their claims:https://op.europa.eu/webpub/eca/special-reports/covid19-vaccines-19-2022/en/:QuoteSo ... yeah, of course you can sue the vaccine manufacturer if you were damaged by their vaccine, and they are, of course, liable exactly as with any other medical product that they are selling. Who would have thought ...The only thing somewhat special about the Covid 19 vaccines is that the manufacturer will be reimbursed for the damages they have to pay to you plus associated expenses by the state under certain circumstances. Which obviously is a thing you can effectively agree on in a contract, in contrast to removing liability towards third parties. And which also isn't actually that unusual for vaccines, and is also a perfectly sensible thing to do for a government.(edit: to avoid any confusion: yes, technically, the manufacturer isn't reimbursed for the damages payment, but instead the damages are paid directly by the state, but that obviously is exclusively to the benefit of the damaged person, as this means that they'll get the payment even in the case that the manufacturer goes bankrupt.)And also, no, of course, that contractual agreement does not cover the case of the manufacturer lying. If the damage is a result of the manufacturer lying, then they won't even be reimbursed.In any case, it is obviously complete nonsense that you can't sue Covid 19 vaccine manufacturers for damages from those vaccines.

author: Postal2
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2024, 02:47:34 pm
content: Quote from: Wallace Gasiewicz on July 29, 2024, 01:03:10 pmEven when we know the exact structure, we can't predict how it works. I don't know enough about it to dig deeper, but what I've learned scares me. It could really mess with the hereditary machinery.Quote from: zilp on July 29, 2024, 02:18:21 pmBecause the sources were studied 4 years ago and it takes time to find them. Spending half an hour on each of your questions, of which there are many, is unacceptable.

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2024, 02:58:58 pm
content: Quote from: zilp on July 29, 2024, 01:36:29 pmReality. You missed reality.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2024, 03:08:49 pm
content: Quote from: Nominal Animal on July 29, 2024, 02:58:58 pmSorry, but that's lame. It was you who insisted that "It is all in the public record, and you'd know that if you had read them (at europa.eu)". And after zilp followed your lead, dug up and quoted the relevant rules on damages, that is your comeback?

author: Kim Christensen
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2024, 03:24:21 pm
content: Quote from: jonovid on July 29, 2024, 02:26:35 amThanks for that. Interesting to see how they've cleaned up the larger cities by using mostly electric vehicles. There's also quite a cleanliness contrast between those huge factories and some of the smaller ones.One thing I thought was funny was when the guy gets stopped for taking a Lithium battery onto the bullet train because it's capacity is too large. So he mails it onward to his next hotel, but then later on continues to take the same trains. Doesn't really say what he did with the battery for those subsequent trips.

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2024, 04:12:51 pm
content: Quote from: ebastler on July 29, 2024, 03:08:49 pmLame? Ignoring someone who posts stuff without actually reading the posts before and only picks snippets of the last posted post to nitpick on and does quick Google searches to find snippets to bolster their argument instead of reading those reports fully in the first place, is now lame? Okay.Now I understand why I so often find it nearly impossible to interact with you in a mutually useful manner. It is hard, man.Quote from: Nominal Animal on July 29, 2024, 08:12:17 amIn Finland, the governmentrefusedto check the doses for contaminants, even after Japan recalled entire batches due to contamination.And what is not covered by the indemnification? That's right, *manufacturing defects*.Now, you be un-lame, ebastler, and describe to me exactly how one could sue Moderna or Astra-Zeneca in Europe for believed contaminants in the therapeutics. If you cannot –– I cannot myself, but I haven't examined the issue from a personal viewpoint, as I don't need to ––, will you apologize for calling me lame? No? Because even when you're wrong, you're still truthy, and thus nobody disagreeing with you deserves an apology?I think you two should be ashamed of yourselves, for the way you are communicating here. You can do much better, if you bothered to try.I for one do not believe in any conspiracy theories that say that the mRNA therapeutics were designed to be harmful. I fully believe they were intended to protect people. However, the politicians made damn sure they would not be blamed, and used the pandemic as an opportunity to try and grab new powers (like the vaccination passes). The companies knowing the experimental nature and highly accelerated development cycle, required protection from possible lawsuits, indemnification, and the politicians agreed to that and tried to keep the indemnification and purchase agreements secret –– von der Leyen still tries, even though court on 17th decided EU commission was in the wrong in trying to. That is what happened. I've already been very clear I do trust the experts (as much as one should trustanyhumans they do not know personally), but not the politicians nor civil servants acting on behalf of politicians (or their own income stream and questionable research funding practices, as in the case of Antonio Fauci and gain-of-function research on related viruses near to where the epidemic is believed to have started). Yes, I fully believe Antony Fauci was lying through his teeth all the time, to protect his own income, reputation, and to avoid repercussions for funding very questionable gain-of-function research. All the politicians who said the first dose would give lasting immunity were just hoping; it wasn't backed by independent researchers, only by politicians and sales people. Even the medical companies' internal research indicated they provided very low immunity rates. Then the politicians switched to "oh, the first dose didn't, but the second would". Then the booster would. Then it would at least reduce the symptoms and help you get over it quicker. All without independent expert support of the claims, based solely on politics, civil servant and company marketing division blather. And so on.Nothing similar has happened before with any vaccine, not even with Pandemrix and swine flu (that ended up causing narcolepsy). The narcolepsy issues were found by the Finnish and Swedish health authorities. Compare to mRNA therapeutics, where the same governments refuse to even random-test the doses for contamination observed in other countries. Here in Finland, for example, the expert statements from health authorities did not support the policies, and there was quite a lot of public talk about the divide; but were framed (in the "world's free'est media") as "random individuals undermining politicians taking responsibility of the crisis". Even if the heads of departments have medical backgrounds, they're still political appointees here, and thus directly responsible to politicians (or they will be replaced), so there is no reason to trust their public statements unless they contradict politicians. They sometimes did, here.The fault here is on the politicians. I fully believe the companies were hoping for mRNA to be a solution, and they made an absolute mint on them. The policies, however, were made by politicians, and not experts. Can I prove it EU-wide? I'm not sure, because I haven't tried. For Finland, it is easily done, as the divide between the cabinet (prime minister onwards) and the health authorities is now in the open. The current head is trying to act as if it did not exist, because the politicians think he is good at that and can hide the tracks at least sufficiently that no lawsuits will ensue. And we don't even have a constitutional court, only a parliament appointee to act as the highest interpreter of the constitutional law, and for the last twenty years or so, has mostly ensured that politicians' wrongdoings are kept hidden, and only dealt with if the public has uncontrovertible proof.That's all that I have to say. Many of you are not going to believe –– ebastler for example rarely believes anything I say. That is fine. The purpose of my posts on this subject is not to convince anyone or change anyones mind, only show that this is the basis for my opinions, and if someone wants to, they can do their own research to decide whether that basis should affect their own opinion or not. I consider the opinions themselves as basically worthless, and only the reasons behind those opinions worth discussing and examining. Thus far, it has been quite one-sided examination in this thread. That is fine, too, because the thread in general isn't worth participating in, really. If there had been descriptions of the reasons for their opinions, it might have been more interesting. In the past, in at least one discussion I really tried to pull those out of ebastler, but it was like trying to drag a concrete barrier; not worth the effort, with results rather underwhelming (reasons quite vague and ebastler unwilling to elaborate).

author: zilp
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2024, 05:04:43 pm
content: Quote from: Nominal Animal on July 29, 2024, 04:12:51 pmIf you were damaged by a contaminated dose due to the contamination and you could prove that, then you would hire a lawyer who would file a suit with the court that is responsible for the case.Quote from: Nominal Animal on July 29, 2024, 04:12:51 pmIt's just that the fact that that is part of the contract was not a secret!?And also, you make it sound like such an indemnification clause is necessarily a problematic thing that indicates corruption or that people were lying about the safety of the vaccine or something. But that is just plain nonsense.The problem is that a vaccine manufacturer that holds the patents on some vaccine is not required to sell any vaccine at all. And if they don't sell you a vaccine, then you don't have a vaccine.Now, every dose they sell has a risk associated with it that they might have to pay damages if there is an adverse reaction. They can quantify this risk as an amount of money by multiplying the expected damages payment in case things go wrong with the probability that a given dose causes adverse reactions.Then, if they sell a dose for 15 EUR, say, they would be irrational to sell that dose to anyone where their models predict expected damages higher than 15 EUR minus costs, because that sale would be expected to cause them a loss.As such, by default, the manufacturer would just limit the use of the vaccine to groups where the risk is minimal and the expected return after damages paid out is a profit.That would leave lots of people without access to the vaccine. However, these people are not necessarily actually safer for not receiving the vaccine, because they still face the risk of an infection.It's just that the expected damages for an unvaccinated person from an infection are not something that the vaccine manufacturer considers in their profitability calculation, because that is not something that they are liable for.And that is where the indemnification clause comes in:The state says: We want people for who the expected damages from vaccination are lower than the expected damages of an infection to have access to the vaccine, because that is still an expected benefit for that person (and by extension for society at large). In order to motivate the vaccine manufacturer to sell to such people (i.e., to authorize use for such people), the government then agrees to cover those damages. Or rather, in a purchase agreement, they'd probably just agree to cover all damages that aren't due to fraud (i.e., the manufacturer lying) or negligence, because that saves the effort of figuring out which case belongs in which category, but would then demand a lower price in return (i.e., reduced by the expected damages in those cases where the manufacturer would be willing to sell anyway).

author: AVGresponding
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2024, 06:16:38 pm
content: There are places where you can discuss this sort of thing freely, but it doesn't belong here. Mods, for the love of criminy, lock this completely derailed thread already

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 29, 2024, 07:05:13 pm
content: All right, locked