propagation delay question - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / beginners

author: robowaffe
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2023, 01:28:39 pm
content: is there a penalty for electricity to go in a loop, than in a straight line, with electrical delay?

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2023, 01:33:04 pm
content: Yes. Does it matter for beginner-level circuits? Possibly, but probably no.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2023, 01:38:42 pm
content: Quote from: robowaffe on August 01, 2023, 01:28:39 pmIs there a penalty for the earth going around the sun in a loop, with mechanical delay?Summary: not a very good troll.I'm sure theywouldwelcome you at an ice cream parlour, viz:Quote from: robowaffe on July 19, 2023, 03:37:28 pmThat thread was locked, and I've heard another of robowaffe's threads has also been locked.

author: robowaffe
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2023, 01:45:58 pm
content: whats with all this troll business, do u just want me out of here?

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2023, 01:55:44 pm
content: Quote from: robowaffe on August 01, 2023, 01:45:58 pmYou annoyed many people, when you appeared not to listen when you were told why a 32-bit analogue computer isn't viable.Quote from: robowaffe on August 01, 2023, 01:28:39 pmElectricity always goes in a loop. It has to, because a circuit, i.e. loop is required for current to flow.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2023, 02:06:29 pm
content: Quote from: Zero999 on August 01, 2023, 01:55:44 pmOne thread would be tolerable. The same behaviour in all threads becomes tedious, and devalues this forum.

author: robowaffe
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2023, 02:11:44 pm
content: maybe 32 bits isnt viable, but 8 bits is.My technology im working on is hybrid analogue digital, I bet its already out there and you guys are just scared of nothing.

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2023, 03:33:42 pm
content: Quote from: Zero999 on August 01, 2023, 01:55:44 pmYes. Add more loops, or make a longer loop, and the electricity will take longer to travel, because it travels at about 200 000 000 m/s.And unless you have a perfect, ideal transmission line, then this is better modeled as an L-R-C circuit than actual speed.

author: robowaffe
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2023, 03:49:38 pm
content: I didn't mean that.I mean if i have a straight wire, and a crooked wire, does the crook in the wire end up changing the delay time to the other end.

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2023, 05:14:28 pm
content: Yes, definitely. You know there is this concept ofspeed of lightwhich can't be exceeded. But can you actually see the difference in your beginner-level setup? Probably not. But can processor designers or computer motherboard bus designers see it? Definitely yes.

author: Terry Bites
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2023, 05:17:20 pm
content: Phone guys call it loop resistance, but what do they know..... It's often double the line resistance. Believe.Sagnac effect anyone, don't all shout at once!

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2023, 05:52:45 pm
content: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/veritasium-how-electricity-actually-works/msg4145404/#msg4145404

author: robowaffe
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2023, 05:37:28 am
content: To test it, as a beginner, u need to set up a 100mhz delay line oscillator, and its theoretically actually not that much wire to get down to 100mhz. its completely feesable in your bedroom.

author: Ian.M
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2023, 06:07:44 am
content: <snark> I doubt your bedroom can contain over 266 thousand miles of 0.7 velocity factor cable! </snark>Hint: SI prefixes are case sensitive

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 02, 2023, 06:20:07 am
content: Quote from: Zero999 on August 01, 2023, 05:52:45 pmProblem is he just speaks in riddles and is a time wasting asshole, his whole business is to keep you hooked so will never explain it in plain english. You may as well read the wikipedia article he stripped anything useful out of to inspire his scripts.

author: robowaffe
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2023, 06:24:44 am
content: Quote from: Ian.M on August 02, 2023, 06:07:44 amIncorrect, its less than 4 metres of just good litz copper wire to get down to 100mhz.

author: Ian.M
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2023, 06:30:53 am
content: A wave of 100 mHz has a period of 10 seconds. *DO* *THE* *MATH* !Correcting your fallacious statements is more tedious and less fruitful than correcting ChatGPT!

author: robowaffe
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2023, 06:45:26 am
content: Quote from: Ian.M on August 02, 2023, 06:30:53 amWell I could be wrong.I'm saying its about a metre, for 100 megahertz if 1 gigahertz is 10 cm. (to encompass the wavelength on the wire.)Saying a gig is 10 cm comes from a computer lady I saw on the internet, it was from a while back and Im just remembering back from there, actually I probably need to recompute it maybe from the speed of electricity. Ill be back with a recompute, (So I will do the maths.)Electricity is pretty quick, so am I wrong? How do you come up with such a long distance?

author: robowaffe
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2023, 06:58:32 am
content: Well. its actually quicker than I thought in another compute. but not by much.its actually 3 metres for a 100 megahertz.and the equation is, which is not far off the complexity just doing my shopping list to get my home made spaghetti mix.wavelength of 100 megaherts wave of electricity = C / hz.300 million metres per second divided by 100 megahertz = 3 metres!And u made a big boo boo, 100 megahertz has nothing to do with 10 seconds.and wavelength is over space not time.

author: fourfathom
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2023, 07:10:03 am
content: mhz <> MHzmHz : millihertzMHz: megahertzmhz: typo

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2023, 07:11:27 am
content: Quote from: Simon on August 02, 2023, 06:20:07 amExactly. He's right up the OP's street!Quote from: robowaffe on August 02, 2023, 06:45:26 amFor the final time. Pefixes are case sensitive. You said 100mHz, which is 100 milli herz, 100*10-3= 0.1Hz.Common Si prefixes used in electronics are:1p = 10-121n = 10-91µ = 10-61m = 10-31k = 1031M = 1061G = 1091T = 1012Note: it's fine to put 1u, rather than 1µ because it's not in the ASCII character set, even though the forum now supports Unicode.

author: robowaffe
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2023, 07:21:50 am
content: I dont know you can bother to write all that text out just to tell me I wrote a lower case m than a higher case m, for megahertz.this is a complete joke.No-one really has nothing much better to do, obviously.That we just like being annoying gits, kinda thing.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2023, 07:43:35 am
content: Quote from: Simon on August 02, 2023, 06:20:07 amAre you talking about that video's creator or the OP? Itreallyisn't clear.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2023, 07:45:36 am
content: Quote from: robowaffe on August 02, 2023, 07:21:50 amDon't assume that you are like other people on this forum.

author: JustMeHere
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2023, 08:54:16 am
content: For slow switching circuits over short distances like an inch or two, you don't have to worry too much.There's a great video series available on O’Reilly Media from Howard Johnson (the Godfather of digital signals) that you can watch for free with the trial. Worth it. Even worth a month subscription.https://www.oreilly.com/library/view/high-speed-digital-design/9780134584577/?_gl=1*1maotqy*_ga*NDU3ODE4NTkxLjE2OTA5NjYzMjQ.*_ga_092EL089CH*MTY5MDk2NjMyNC4xLjEuMTY5MDk2NjM0Ni4zOC4wLjA.

author: robowaffe
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2023, 09:15:47 am
content: so, are we allowed to share fpga circuits here, or is that too much for people to handle?

author: MrAl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2023, 10:14:39 am
content: Quote from: robowaffe on August 02, 2023, 06:58:32 amHello,If you really want to know how this works, you should look into transmission lines.Start with the Telegrapher's Equation then compare that to the Wave Equation. This will show you the difference between a signal traveling through free space and a signal traveling in a cable.The signal traveling though free space is the fastest it can go through the local spacetime, while a signal traveling through a cable is limited by the construction of the cable which can vary widely.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 02, 2023, 10:47:42 am
content: A user in the Bahamas but with a Telstra (AU) IP address? Are you just taking the piss?

author: robowaffe
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2023, 10:55:20 am
content: Who cares where I come from, its not important.But heres one thing, with transmission delay.I can put down a whole lot of registers that are passing a value along, and outputting them in parallel, so the signal output is shifting one each time, and I'm getting an overlap.This could come down to a hefty lot of registers.This can all be replaced with just a wire and tap wires coming off it, if u use propagation delay alone, then all this extra circuitry can disappear if u can get it right.This would be good for say doing a filter, that multi-tap filters can come off a delay wire maybe!!!

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 02, 2023, 10:57:43 am
content: Quote from: robowaffe on August 02, 2023, 10:55:20 amIt's a little bit important. We've had multiple reports of you being a troll. Your posts mostly seem to be nonsense or just wasting people's time. Do we consider you a genuine user or just a troll/spammer/trouble maker?Consider the "pub test" as a real thing.

author: robowaffe
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2023, 11:06:03 am
content: This troll saying thing is extremely childish and its coming out of preschool pretty much, that the nasty shit kids dont like one of the the kids there and call him a troll, and dont make any sense as well as that.But I thought some of you guys were actually probably 60 years old, but reverting back to your preschool days.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 02, 2023, 11:43:42 am
content: Yes there are people here that range from teenagers to coffin dodgers, Many users here are seasoned engineers, and mostly you are arguing with those that your silly ideas have any foundation in reality.I know that it always takes just one person or group to come up with something revolutionary, but if the brilliant ideas that you claim to have that are totally not backed up by how you will defy reality as we know it work, don't you think a few more serious people with the ability to explain their reasoning would also be working on this?It seems that all of your posts start to come back to a 32 bit analogue computer that you then claim will be 8 bit whilst ignoring that either way it is not just another method, it is a totally different way of doing things that we went away from years ago. So you need to tell us what has changed in the real world before you come polluting this place with your nonsensical ideas.i suggest you go take a job with Ubeam or whatever they are called this week.

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2023, 11:49:14 am
content: Quote from: robowaffe on August 02, 2023, 11:06:03 amNo, I'm actually 6000 years old and reverting back to the days when I was designing the great pyramid of Giza with my UFO friends. Good times, good times. I wish we had your 8-bit analog computer technology available back then, we had to cope with those 7-bit analog computers of the day.

author: robowaffe
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2023, 11:51:59 am
content: well, u only need 2 7 bit analogue computers to get a 14 bit, but no-one believes me.But since that is obvious, I'm thinking that your all probably not being so honest with me.Do you need me to tell you that I know your not being honest with me?

author: ftg
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2023, 12:21:47 pm
content: I don't get it, this whole thread about if propagation delay exists?Which it does?Yes, a longer trace will have a longer delay to a shorter one.And in regard to analog computers, why not simulate one in LTspice, QSPICE, Micro-Cap or Falstad to demonstrate it?That even saves one from having to melt solder and order parts.

author: robowaffe
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2023, 12:41:26 pm
content: I don't think I can demonstrate it unless until its 100% in full working order, and even then it would hard to share it here. Its still only just a lot of theory.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2023, 02:17:18 pm
content: QuoteBack in the day when the preferred transfer protocol was papyrus on camel. What sort of propagation delays were you seeing between giza and outer uranus?

author: golden_labels
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2023, 03:13:08 pm
content: Quote from: ftg on August 02, 2023, 12:21:47 pmBecause the purpose of their threads is not to actually understand or learn anything. It is to either waste as much of your time as possible or to validate their own absurd fantasies.After this thread becomes less active, they will start another one following the same pattern. Starting with a statement, that is triggering victims’ natural will to help. Followed by selectively ignoring any response which could lead to solving the issue or ending the thread. And posting new messages which twist or skip precisely these tiny fragments of knowledge, which — if twisted or skipped — maximize confusion and retrigger victims.This, supported by the level of commotion one creates, is what is a quite objective marker for being either of the above cases.The best response is to not respond and let moderators do their job, if needed. Any form of engangement (even negative) is only awarding them and reinforcing the behavior. That also includes me sending this post, but given that the snowball is already so big, this is of little harm and may help in the future.

author: wasedadoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2023, 03:26:58 pm
content: Quote from: robowaffe on August 02, 2023, 12:41:26 pmOne man's theory is many men's baloney. ("Man" used in the gender inclusive sense as in the well kown meat and poison saying.)

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2023, 03:38:57 pm
content: Quote from: Halcyon on August 02, 2023, 10:47:42 amFrequentlySee his other first posts and responses.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2023, 03:41:32 pm
content: Quote from: themadhippy on August 02, 2023, 02:17:18 pmLatencies were vastly improved after RFC2549 was implemented.https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc2549

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 03, 2023, 05:48:33 am
content: Quote from: robowaffe on August 02, 2023, 11:06:03 amIt actually comes from being on the internet for decades, and experience with people who just like to stir shit. Experienced people can smell a rat a mile away.

author: robowaffe
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2023, 07:02:27 am
content: So I'll just say it again, ppl just cant even share a simple circuit, with this attitude infesting the whole internet, I'm not the only person that was abused on this site. You have a lot to be proud of.Anyone that has half a chance at actually making a computer, gets kicked off and theres only a whole lot of users that are still just only up to the first gate of an asic, and cant get past it, and anyone that thinks they can, gets called a troll and banned.Reminds of the simpsons episode where Bill "build" Gates invades Homer's house and snaps all his pencils, are u guys hired by Steve Jobs, and hes actually still alive! Thats a happy thought! Something good comes out of something crap, thats the silver lining.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2023, 07:28:30 am
content: Quote from: robowaffe on August 03, 2023, 07:02:27 amBut specifically, the bit where you just seemed to say:Quote from: robowaffe on August 03, 2023, 07:02:27 amSo, are you now publicly admitting that you have had previous account(s) on this forum/server and they were permanently banned?

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2023, 07:30:57 am
content: Quote from: robowaffe on August 02, 2023, 07:21:50 amWe tried to tell you before, but you didn't get it. It might seem petty, but using lower vs upper case can often make a big difference. It's important to use the correct case because it removes ambiguity and some programming languages and file systems are case sensitive.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 03, 2023, 07:37:07 am
content: Quote from: robowaffe on August 03, 2023, 07:02:27 amNo one has said you can't share anything, the problem is you just waffle on, so cmon, put you money where your mouth is!

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2023, 07:57:04 am
content: Quote from: robowaffe on August 03, 2023, 07:02:27 amWhy mention banning?Playing the "victim card" doesn't help.Constructing coherent arguments and grammatically correct sentences would help.Designing and constructing anything requires coherent thinking.There are direct analogues of "correct grammar" in both electronics and computing.I agree with Simon's and Halcyon's comments in this thread.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2023, 09:08:33 am
content: I'd suggest, getting professional (via Doctors), help.You appeared to post this, on your youtube channel.You don't seem to sound, 100% well, hence the suggestion about getting Doctor(s) to help out.

author: MrAl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2023, 09:36:21 am
content: Quote from: robowaffe on August 01, 2023, 03:49:38 pmHello again,There is such a thing as minimum inductance. The minimum inductance in free space is very small, but still there. That, and the minimum capacitance limits the speed that a signal can travel in free space.In a wire, the inductance will be larger and thus the signal will be slower.In a curved wire, even of the same length, the inductance will be a little higher, and thus the signal will take slightly longer to travel.To see how this works, you can look up how to calculate inductance from a raw construction like a wire or a bent wire. The distance (proximity) of one point on the wire to another point makes the inductance larger or smaller. A straight wire has maximum proximity from one point to another, while a curved wire has less, meaning one point on the curved wire will be closer to any other point on the curved wire than it would be if it was a straight wire. That means the inductance is greater for the curved wire.You would need to know how to integrate (calculus) to do these calculations, but you can find solved wire shapes and see the difference in inductance. If you don't understand how inductance works yet, then you'll have to look into that too, because that influences the speed of the signal. The decrease in proximity would also make the capacitance increase, which also acts with the inductance to limit the speed of the signal.

author: robowaffe
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2023, 09:40:29 am
content: Funny u should say "100%"If you dont think im 100%, make sure that u are, or your in trouble too.

author: MrAl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2023, 09:41:49 am
content: Quote from: robowaffe on August 03, 2023, 09:40:29 amYeah you need to pay attention to your replies or you will not be taken seriously anymore.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2023, 09:42:41 am
content: Quote from: robowaffe on August 03, 2023, 09:40:29 amBy seeing someone, who can help, medically, if necessary. It can make you feel a lot better, and improve your quality of life.Then, if you still want to do hobby projects. You will be more able to do them, in a consistent, reliable, and constructive way. Ending up making useful things, hopefully.

author: robowaffe
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2023, 09:54:08 am
content: Quote from: MrAl on August 03, 2023, 09:41:49 amWhat AI have you actually got going yet? Calling yourself MR AI? You must be quite good at it, or is it just a dream for your future?

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2023, 09:55:30 am
content: Quote from: MK14 on August 03, 2023, 09:08:33 amRobowaffe: to avoid confusion and doubt, will you please confirm or deny that is you.Thanks.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2023, 05:50:36 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on August 03, 2023, 09:55:30 amI'm now pretty sure he'skrayvonk. It was a few years ago, so I could be misremembering.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 04, 2023, 07:04:59 am
content: Quote from: Zero999 on August 03, 2023, 05:50:36 pmI think they ran a number of accounts, mostly banned. Apart from the recent one(s), such as the OP.E.g. Capernicushttps://www.eevblog.com/forum/profile/?area=showposts;sa=topics;u=762538They also, seem to be disrupting other thread(s) (ones they didn't start), with apparently nonsensical answers.Quote from: robowaffe on August 04, 2023, 12:36:02 amI intentionally kept out of that thread, as I didn't want to disrupt it, and would have expected a bad response from robowaffe, if I tried to correct them.There seems to be talk of a large number of reports on robowaffe, yet I can't see much action, on an apparently disruptive, many times permanently banned, 'member'. So I can't see much point, in making reports about them, via the 'report to moderator' feature.The disruption they seem to cause, may NOT be their fault (i.e. intentional). But if someone is beginning to be a bit ill (or worse) or taking funny substances, action may still need to be taken.

author: MrAl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 04, 2023, 08:43:04 am
content: Quote from: robowaffe on August 03, 2023, 09:54:08 amHello,What has this got to do with propagation delay?You seriously don't know how to take advice even though you appear to have very little knowledge in these subjects at hand. That's a bad combination and unless you can correct that you won't be able to progress in this field or any related field. It's your choice.As a side note, you also don't seem to know how computer fonts work or else you would not have gotten the member name wrong:l vs I.Look it up or something, or maybe need glasses?

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 04, 2023, 10:09:05 am
content: Don't worry, he won't be answering anything anymore until he re-registers.