PicKit3  still suck? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: mzdenkov
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 05, 2016, 06:08:19 am
content: Greetings!So here we are in 2016 and I was wondering will I, or will I not buy a PicKit3!After programming with ATMEL ICE and Atmel chips i would like to start testingMicrochip uCs.Here comes the problem, I have an old 3.rd party PicKit2 and I would like to startprogramming their "ARM(i know that they have their own architecture)" uCs.MyBIGquestion is, does PicKit3 still suck or not? Because for me44€ is a big money, and when the work is easier done that is a BIG "+" for me.Thanks.Best Regards.Matija.

author: Throy
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 05, 2016, 06:29:25 am
content: Are you talking about programming the PIC32? I believe the PicKit2 doesn't support all the PIC32 microcontrollers. You might want to check which ones it does. Otherwise the PicKit3 should support the PIC32.I can't tell you how the PicKit3 compares to the PicKit2 since I've never used the PicKit2.

author: mzdenkov
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 05, 2016, 07:34:16 am
content: Yes, i was thinking on PIC32. Can you tell me what is your XP with PicKit3... If you can, write positive and negative arguments(few) about it. Is it hard to use? PicKit2 gave me good XP, no matter that it was 3.rd Party.Thanks.

author: Karel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 05, 2016, 07:51:08 am
content: My experience with the PICkit 3 is that it does what it has to do and it's reliable.Only disadvantage, it's slow, specifically when programming pic32's.So, if you are a hobbyist with a tight budget, buy the PICkit 3.If you are a professional, buy the ICD 3, it's much faster.

author: Throy
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 05, 2016, 08:25:14 am
content: I'd agree with what Karel said. The other thing to be aware of with the PicKit3 is you can't set a breakpoint while the program is running and expect it to stop. You have to pause the program and then resume for it to stop at the breakpoint, if it has been set while it's running. IIRC the PicKit3 also doesn't support runtime watches.

author: Howardlong
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 05, 2016, 08:43:53 am
content: Regarding speed, it's largely to do with the size of flash on the target rather than the device family itself, although I accept that PIC32s are innevitably going to have larger flash the a PIC10!The low pin count PIC32s like the PIC32MX1xx/2xx program relatively quickly, whereas a PIC32MZ2048xxx will take a lot longer. Same applies to the PIC24/dsPIC33 series where there are some monsters nowadays too. In fact, it's a reason to buy devices with smaller flash if you don't need it!

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 05, 2016, 09:25:55 am
content: PK3 works fine - you can get clones on ebay very cheaply - I've bought a couple of the ones labelled "kit 3.5" which are well made & work as well as the originalhttp://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/New-PICKIT3-PIC-Emulator-kit3-Programmer-offline-Download-adapter-Seat-/151795631744?hash=item2357b98680:g:GrkAAOSwp5JWYkbZAs mentioned they are a bit slow on larger parts, for which ICD3 is a better option

author: Galenbo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 05, 2016, 09:58:55 am
content: Did anyone compare pickit3/icd3 himself to the Mikroprog of MikroElektronika?http://www.mikroe.com/mikroprog/pic-dspic-pic32/I'm curious about speed and compatibility.(attention: this company lets you pay 299 dollar for the software)

author: mzdenkov
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 05, 2016, 10:06:36 am
content: Thanks for more info.Im going to save some money for the " original " PicKit3.The upload speed to the uC isnt a problem for me. I thinkill have to live with the Breakpoint part.One more thing, do you need a external circuitry for programming whilethe chip is in circuit? I saw that they added some tris-buffers to protectprogrammer(in the prospect).

author: Stonent
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 05, 2016, 10:23:41 am
content: QuoteSold by weight?

author: Howardlong
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 05, 2016, 11:04:34 am
content: Quote from: Galenbo on January 05, 2016, 09:58:55 amThe problem with MikroElektonika stuff, or indeed some other third party tool vendors like CCS, is that although they're technically reasonable solutions, you are heavily locked into them. Of course, that may or may not be a problem for you, but there's a much bigger community using Microchip's own tools and that means there are far more examples to choose from and typically you're more likely to find an answer online to a problem.

author: Ian.M
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 05, 2016, 11:40:03 am
content: Why would anyone except an educational establishment want to enter Mikroelektronika's walled garden?* Their programmers/debuggers are significantly behind Microchip's for device support, aren't compatible with MPLAB or anything except mikroIDE or mikroProg.* Their compilers only run under mikroIDE.* mikroIDE doesn't support any 3rd party compilers. It doesn't even support Microchip MPASM.* Their libraries are closed source with no sourcecode licence available, so you cant modify or extend them, and if you are bug-hunting, you have to work with the disassembly.OTOH, they have some quite nice hardware (demo boards and modules) so although I wouldn't touch their toolchain with a bargepole, I would not rule out using their boards with a MPLAB supported toolchain.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 05, 2016, 12:03:39 pm
content: I use pickit2 to program pic32 through pic32prog - also possible with other programmers. Pic32prog does not support all pic32 chips however.Not a problem for me as it does support all pic32 that I use.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 05, 2016, 02:57:45 pm
content: I used the PK3 at work to program PIC32 years ago. They dont suck, they have less functionality than the other ICDs from Microchip, or the PK2. I think it is a reasonable compromise for the money, if you need Microchip.On the other hand PIC32 is not fancy enough anymore to bother buying that. The STM32 discovery boards are better value, learning aspect and hardware wise.

author: Howardlong
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 05, 2016, 07:34:17 pm
content: Quote from: mzdenkov on January 05, 2016, 10:06:36 amNope, just a 10k pullup on MCLR is all you need as a rule of thumb.

author: mzdenkov
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 05, 2016, 07:52:07 pm
content: Quote from: NANDBlog on January 05, 2016, 02:57:45 pmLovely! I have few DISCO boards from ST. As it looks they are qute inexpensive way to the 32bit ARM uCs. " + " ST gives ST-Link nearly for free on this boards. Im only interested in Microchip for great community that it has like Atmel, but ST will work too.

author: Howardlong
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 05, 2016, 08:56:22 pm
content: I can't imagine those discovery boards are anything but a loss leader at $10, but then again you look at a Pi Zero and the head starts really scratching!Back to the PICs, I am pretty partial to the Microsticks, particularly the DM240013-2 and DM330013-2. The first one has one of my favourite devices on it for peripherals, including two 8 bit DACs as well as all the usual ADCs, PWMs and whatnot. The second comes with four chips, including a PIC32. The main reason I like these boards - and PICs in general for low to mid end projects - is that they take 28 pin DIP packages which makes breadboarding and going from demo board to your own prototype a cinch without lifting a soldering iron. (I'm not averse to soldering, far from it in fact, I do everything from 0201 to BGA, but sometimes I feel I can give self flagellation a miss).

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2016, 12:07:48 am
content: Quote from: Howardlong on January 05, 2016, 08:56:22 pmSo they sell some 1000 boards losing 10 dollars each? Advertisement on cheap. It is really a genius strategy, better than the "free sample".They usually give it away free on fairs. A company like ST has probably 9 digit budget for marketing.

author: Galenbo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2016, 10:05:52 am
content: Quote from: Howardlong on January 05, 2016, 11:04:34 amQuote from: Ian.M on January 05, 2016, 11:40:03 amYou both are surely right about everything you say, but how does their mikroPROG compare to PicKit3/ICD3? Speed, settings,...

author: Howardlong
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2016, 08:45:56 pm
content: Quote from: NANDBlog on January 06, 2016, 12:07:48 amThe problem is who are they selling them to? Self proclaimed "makers" I am sure, but volume? It's a very very hard sell if you're dependent on the maker space for real market penetration and volume to make up the for the loss leader.I agree though about using it as an advertising strategy, at least I went to look at the chip specs, so I'm now aware of the segment they're targetting, but then I couldn't see a reason to change or use right now. It was, for example, interesting that they're using M4F in a low clocked device. But the ARM Cortex M space is already saturated, and picking one device from another between manufacturers is a significant piece of work in itself, and has inadvertently become a barrier to acceptance. It is much more about the peripherals than it is about the core. It's darned cheap per device for M4F though.Pretty sure that, just like 95%+ of RPis, they'll end up in a drawer. I doubt that directly the remaining 5% is good enough, but as you say as a marketing tool you're right, it's pushed the device family's head up above the noise.

author: LordNobady
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2016, 08:52:47 am
content: Quote from: Galenbo on January 06, 2016, 10:05:52 amThe mikroPROG is faster then the PicKit3 and slower than the ICD2 and ICD3It mostly works as just an other programmer, and works well as a debugger with the software. note that the pinout of the mikroPROG is differed.the PicKit3 can with an external power supply ( usb ) work as an stand alone programmer.all have about the same functionality.

author: mzdenkov
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2016, 10:52:41 am
content: all have about the same functionality.They do, but from price aspect they are far away from each other. +I must add that mikroelektronika has great costumer support.Few years ago, they helped me with the TIVA C board, because their MikroProg program was crashing.

author: Ian.M
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2016, 11:15:05 am
content: If you've got a failed, currently supported, genuine Microchip programmer or debugger, Microchip will generally replace it even if its out of warranty and they are not contractually obliged to do so. They tend to send out an advance replacement to minimise your downtime.

author: Howardlong
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2016, 11:15:36 am
content: Quote from: LordNobady on January 11, 2016, 08:52:47 amDoes the mikroPROG work as a debugger with MPLAB or is it only compatible with MikroElektronika toolchains?The pinout also looks substantially different to the ICD/ICSP standard too.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2016, 12:10:23 pm
content: Microchips decision to scrap pickit2 in favor of pickit3 always puzzles me. The hardware looks pretty much identical, functions almost identically, with pickit3 missing some features of pickit2. Then why restart with a brand new ecosystem for the pickit3, taking on so much risks for seemingly zero benefits.On the flip side, it does seem to be consistent with their general behaviors of undermining their own objectives,

author: LordNobady
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2016, 12:15:19 pm
content: Quote from: Howardlong on January 11, 2016, 11:15:36 amthe mikroPROG works only with the MikroElektronika software. no support for MPLAB or the PicKit3/ICD3.

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2016, 07:25:55 pm
content: If you want a PK3 clone, I suggest you stay away from the Sure Electronics version. I bought one recently, and it's a heap. Didn't work out of the box due to VDD error. Even after tweaking some resistors to get it to work, it's still buggy. Even after upgrading the firmware suite, still buggy."kit3" clone appears to be pretty solid, but I like the "W" clone the best. Even beter than the genuine PK3. (Certain bug with the genuine that is slightly less problematic with the W clone in P2G mode).PK2 still comes in handy due to fast software and reliability. If you are interested in any supported devices, I would suggest to anyone to have a PK2 or PK2 clone (most all the PK2 clones appear to be fine; it's a much simpler and cheaper BOM and schematic), in addition to w/e other programmer/debuggers, particularly if you want to use any of the features of the PK3 with the IPE software (this software appears to be one of the buggier parts of the equation.) Easy and fast software and everything works as expected. With the PK3 you are almost guaranteed to have an hour of screwing around, downloading new firmware (if you can even find it), to make it 95% functional. Even the first time you try a new PK3 with IPE, the programmer may curiously fail to connect the first 3-4 times you use it, but each time with a new error, like it's automatically being reconfigured to a different broken configuration each time. A programmer that just works can save you some time of troubleshooting your circuit if you run into issue with the PK3.You will need another programmer if you want to update the PK3 firmware, proper, or to recover it in case of corruption. Then there are also JAR files with the firmware suite version, which you have to install with MPLAB (if you can find them; this is not the same as the automatic firmware change between families of devices.) The documentation/support with PK3 is a total mess. I think they had too many people working on this project without enough communication, and they ended up with a lot of broken code and hardware/config conflicts. It looks like they focused debugging on the newer 32 bit devices and MPLAB X, so if this is what you're using, then you will probably have smooth sailing.QuoteOnly on the outside. The hardware is completely different. The PK3 has 3-4x as much circuitry to it. I think they needed more speed and memory to implement debugging and programming of the 32 bit PICs. They also went for a completely cross platform (JAVA) design on the software side.