Desktop Pick and Place - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: widerocket
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: January 07, 2021, 12:30:18 am
content: Hi There:I'm producing a SAMD21 based board and a have a few other projects based on this architecture planned for down the road. The SAMD board is in the final rev stage and I have been using JLPCB for SMD for the prototypes. It's worked well, but for a variety of reasons (BOM cost for some of the parts in China, shipping/duties, some custom components, JIT production etc.) I'd like to move SMD production in house. I'd probably be doing 100 or so boards at a time with about 12 or so unique components (roughly 20 components per board in total). Ideally with about 500 boards peak per week being produced. The majority of the components are 1206 with a few 0805's and a small number of IC's. in the mix. I've been looking at options for a desktop based unit with ~30 or so feeders (spools are fine). Budget is in the $5K-7K US range but I would stretch that for the right system. I'm open to CHM, NeoDen etc. or alternatives. It's really hard to evaluate desktop machines. I prefer computer controlled machines as touch screens are an issue for me. I'm fairly handy and am prepared to put time in to tweak a system, but I'd like to avoid complete basket cases in terms of iffy software or weak mechanicals or terrible services (I have a reasonable expectation for the level of support at this low price point). I was wondering if anyone has experience with the lower cost desktop units and if there are any models that people prefer. Thanks in advance for any help.

author: Mangozac
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 07, 2021, 01:08:35 am
content: I presume you've read this thread?https://www.eevblog.com/forum/manufacture/kayo-a4-pnp-machine-review/I'm very pleased with my full-size Kayo machine and highly recommend them.Oh, and you're not the only small manufacturer bringing stuff back in house at the moment. It's happening a lot to many businesses I speak with!

author: jmelson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 07, 2021, 02:11:50 am
content: If you have room, you might also consider a used, industrial grade machine. Some of these are built like tanks, and if your requirements arenot difficult (no really small or fine-pitch components) they ought to do fine. I went this route, and have recently upgraded to a slightly newermachine, as my old one was not accurate enough (I AM now doing fine-pitch stuff).Talking about 500 boards a week, you don't want some of the "toy" machines, you want machines that can reliably churn out boards with minimalstoppage and requiring constant babysitting.My old machine is up for grabs, but I'm in the US midwest, so likely would not do you any good.Jon

author: 48X24X48X
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 07, 2021, 02:47:56 am
content: There's plenty similar threads in this forum. Please comb through them.

author: GerardG
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 07, 2021, 02:46:01 pm
content: Hello widerocket,Take a look at the NeodenUSA website. This will give you support during "Local hours".

author: widerocket
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: January 08, 2021, 02:48:21 am
content: Hi MangozacThanks. That looks very interesting. Very impressive specs. You can tell it is really well made just from the pictures you included. I'm going to keep it in mind. It's a bit too large (I'm running out of a basement with narrow steps) but there's always room for growth down the road. I'm also trying to setup a more professional production line at my University and we have much more space there! Thanks again for pointing this company out. I missed it when looking at options.

author: widerocket
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: January 08, 2021, 03:12:26 am
content: Hi Gerard:I did have the NeoDen 3V on my list. Heck I'm not that far from their east coast operation (I'm in Ontario, Canada). Post current restrictions of course! I even considered the feasibility of driving my van down to NeoDen to save on the considerable shipping. US to Canada shipping is quite brutal despite being next door neighbours. That's an entire topic!I like the form factor (I can get it in my somewhat challenging space for one thing) and the 3V looks very robust, but it does appear like they are really into pushing the 4 series. That's priced out of my range. I think the 3V would work really well for me but I'm a bit concerned that it might eventually be phased out as it does look like a bit of a "well if you need this" etc. It is definitely a very strong candidate though. I'd be very interested in impressions on the reliability, software interface, setup experience etc. It does seem to have favourable reviews from what I can find so far. I have read that NeoDen are really good in terms of support and I read that this is not the case with some other suppliers.

author: widerocket
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: January 08, 2021, 03:32:59 am
content: Thanks for the advice. I have considered used machines. The big issue in that regard is my space and access to it. I am in a basement with a typical stairwell. It's quite tight and does not have ground level access. Actually it's a decently large basement space with a divided workshop area. Perhaps with some potential for disassembly but I'm not too keen on taking that on if I can avoid it.I do get the point about toy machines though. I thought that a NeoDen 3V or even a 4 series or similar might strike a decent balance and be capable of the volume of production. I'm not overly concerned about babysitting a machine as I'm almost always in the basement working on stuff so it's not a major distance. Noise could be an issue though, so I would likely place it in the rougher workshop area as that is divided from the office/design space. My plan is to eventually put the production line in the workshop area. I will keep an eye out for used system as that is definitely an option if I can make the form factor work.

author: Mangozac
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 08, 2021, 05:23:42 am
content: Quote from: widerocket on January 08, 2021, 03:32:59 amGiven that a full size machine weighs the best part of a ton and doesn't exactly disassemble I would say this is a nonstarter.With only 20 components you will be placing each board pretty quickly - 150 per hour would be achievable on a half decent machine, so your 500 boards per week is only half a day of work.Unless you have an automatic stencil printer you will be spending a good part of your time stenciling the boards while the pick and place is operating. You will certainly want to panelise as much as possible to decrease the number of squeegee operations required.

author: jmelson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 08, 2021, 04:09:13 pm
content: Quote from: widerocket on January 08, 2021, 03:32:59 amOh, boy! You are right, that certainly limits your options. There ARE some small(er) machines. Some of the old Quads, I think, and Essemtec aresmall enough to fit through a doorway.QuoteThe only really noisy thing is the air compressor. Some of the smaller machines have a little diaphragm vacuum pump in them, and are pretty quiet.My Philips had no muffler on the vacuum venturis and was a bit loud, the new Quad does have mufflers, and if it weren't for the air compressor, I would not use ear protectors when running it.My old Philips had an issue with weak pull on the feeders, it was the way they were designed, and I had to CONSTANTLY be messing with the cover tapes not peeling. The new Quad seems to have stronger pull, and this seems to be less of a problem. But, after messing with feeders for a while, I could usually get even the Philips to feed parts reliably, and then the boards would just keep running.Jon

author: Mangozac
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2021, 01:34:26 am
content: Quote from: jmelson on January 08, 2021, 04:09:13 pmWe had a similar issue with some of our clone Yamaha CL feeders. Increasing the air pressure to the upper end of the recommended range solved the issue.

author: jmelson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2021, 07:08:33 pm
content: Quote from: Mangozac on January 09, 2021, 01:34:26 amThe old-style Yamaha (Philips) feeders advanced tape and pulled the cover on the RELEASE stroke of the head plunger. The head plunger did give a full stroke every time. The old Yamaha 8 and 12 mm feeders had no air, they were purely mechanical and driven directly by the same air cylinder that moved the nozzles up and down. The 16mm and up feeders were connected to air, and the head plunger operated a valve on the feeder. They worked much better.I was able to help the 8 and 12 mm feeders by choking up on the tension springs and sometimes had to put small C-clamps on the empty component tape to help pull it through.My newer Quad machine has motorized feeders that seem to have plenty of pull, and when the peel rollers are in good condition, this seems to be much less of a problem.Jon

author: widerocket
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: January 16, 2021, 06:19:34 pm
content: I've designed the project around 2X2 boards per panel. I am just (barely!) able to fit four boards on a 100mmX100mm board. So that should help with stencilling. I'm planning on getting a stencilling machine. So it it should not be too arduous. Thanks for the advice!