When do you "cross the line" between a cheap and an expensive piece of gear? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: LeonR
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 28, 2019, 07:20:14 pm
content: Quick background: I had electronics as my technical option on high school some 15 years ago, but nowadays it is purely a hobby (fixing simple stuff, recapping old computer motherboards and videogame consoles, etc) as I invested on a IT career later on.I've been asking myself this later since I have a bit of a prosumer mindset ("if that option does more, why not consider?"), but after seeing some 10/20x price differences between them it's pretty hard to justify based on my maybe-once-in-a-month use.So, how do you decide between a "standard" quality - that somewhat cheap option that does the job even if it may lack something you'd really like to have - and a higher-end gear, with more precision readings, features, overall quality, etc? Do you have different standards between different types of equipment (solder, metrology, others)? Are your choices purely affected by how much do you use them?I've seen arguments about this spread out on a lot of topics, so I thought about making a topic since I think this may be on others minds and it is always nice to share such points of views and the reasons between them.Sorry if this wasn't the right subforum to post this, and please feel free to move it to a more suitable one.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 28, 2019, 07:47:29 pm
content: To me the most important part of the decission is: does a piece of equipment do what it is supposed to do. Determining whether it is worth spending more or not is hard. One of my favorite examples: I used to have a cheap cordless drill/screw driver. I could make do with that. After a while I got a Makita cordless drill/screw driver as a present. At first I thought 'what do I need this for? I already have a cordless drill.' However the difference in ease of use is night and day. The Makita is so much better and easier to use that in hindsight the cheap cordless drill was a waste of money and I should have bought the Makita myself right away. The moral of the story is to do your research and try all sorts of equipment before buying. Even the equipment you can't afford so at least you know which options are out there.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 28, 2019, 08:00:02 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on September 28, 2019, 07:47:29 pmSure, if it's got more Watts then you'll drill holes a more easily. That's math.But... if you only use it for half a dozen screws per month then maybe there's something else worth buying instead that could improve your life more often than a better drill.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 28, 2019, 08:05:12 pm
content: If the cheap gear is doing the job you're trying to do then the time to switch to the "luxury" stuff is when you've got excess money and nothing else you really need instead.Quote from: LeonR on September 28, 2019, 07:20:14 pmNope. Once you reach "it works for me" level, that's it.Quote from: LeonR on September 28, 2019, 07:20:14 pmOf course.

author: DaJMasta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 28, 2019, 08:38:07 pm
content: I think I often fall into the more dangerous way of answering this: whether it's cheap relative to comparable alternatives. It means I've gotten some good deals on high performance equipment, but it also means that I've spent a bit for it. I think part of this is that just the way the gear works and being able to observe physical or electrical phenomena is fascinating to me, so I'm able to "justify" spending for some equipment that isn't even necessary for a current project, but which can measure something neat in an interesting way. I don't post much in the TEA thread, but I know it's where I belong.I think the more reasonable approach is to buy the equipment you need for the project you're working on, and not more. You do enough projects, you get more equipment, but you also are buying with the project's requirements in mind, so you're less likely to get stuff just for the fascination of it or just for a potential use case that never really rolls around. I'm also a proponent of not having too many multiples of something, so if you find you need a higher spec multimeter, for example, maybe you keep another good one as a comparison and something for a special use case, but you sell or give away any others so you're not just amassing more of something than you'd likely use (of course, if you're just collecting, I guess that's the whole point!)I think part of the justification for proper test equipment vs. consumer measurement products is the reliability/repeatability. The specification may not even be that much better, in some cases, but because the industrial version has been better characterized, better ruggedized, and is made from parts that are meant to hold calibration for a set cycle, they are generally much more robustly built and much less prone to failing with age. If you're only going to use something once a month, the product with a 10 year or more life cycle is going to be worth several times as much as the one that lasts for a dozen uses and then drifts out of spec, loses a part, or goes out of warranty/is refreshed and has no replacement parts/wasn't designed for a special case that is characterized on the industrial version/etc... so while the value per individual use may not be that high, it still could be much above a consumer grade device that lasts for only a fraction of as long.On some level, though, you need to figure out what you need, what you want, how much you're going to use it, and what direction you have to go to reconcile those different parts. If you're really on the fence about something, you can almost always wait a while to see if a deal comes around or a new version of the product adds some feature you think would be beneficial. Also worth mentioning that the expensive piece of gear is almost never worth it if you don't have the disposable income - we're talking hobby stuff here, so it should never be taking money from 'required to live properly' earmarked funds.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 28, 2019, 08:41:19 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on September 28, 2019, 08:00:02 pmIt is not about Watts and not about the amount of screws. It is about comfort and the end result. The way the Makita is built allows to get a screw into the right location much more easely compared to the POS cordless drill. You can't put a number on that. The Makita did come with the same type of crappy NiCd batteries though.

author: worsthorse
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 28, 2019, 08:45:27 pm
content: If you aren't one of those people(like me)that accumulates test equipment because it is cool, fun to repair, etc then let your need be driven by what you are doing on your bench. If you are doing a one off filter project, you probably don't need a vector network analyzer. If you do a lot of stuff where bandwidth and impedance matters, you probably do. Then the question becomeswhat specs do you need to do the work you need to do?In the real world, price and performance are correlated. Thirty dollar TE won't ever match its three hundred or three thousand dollar equivalent. That said, cheap TE is often all we need. Take VNAs as an example.There are sixty dollar VNAs out there that do a lot for the money, especially if you are working under 100MHz. They don't come with good documentation, are sometimes hard to use, and have real performance limitations. The next step up is kit that costs five to ten times as much and comes with better docs and performance. For example, the SDR-KITS WVNA works pretty well up to 1GHz, has a big community of users, and does a lot for the money. Then there's the pro gear which can cost a hundred times as much. The truth is, most of us never ever need a VNA that goes to 20GHz or a DMM with 8.5 digits. That doesn't mean we don't own such stuff but that's because either wehave to have itfor a particular project or wewant to have itbecause damn owning a rack full of spectrum analyzer is cool.So here's one strategy: start with the cheapest option you can find that probably does what you need. Again, if you need a VNA, do some googling, buy the sixty buck VNA, learn how to use it, and set it aside for something better when you need something better. Maybe you will work your way up to the Agilent or RS rack mount VNA, maybe not.One other thing. Beside google being your friend, get to your bench and do shit with the stuff you buy. The only way to really understand anything more complicated than a voltmeter is to use it an awful lot. And, actually, you can probably say that about a VOM, too.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 28, 2019, 08:48:21 pm
content: Quote from: blueskull on September 28, 2019, 08:40:20 pmYep, this.Tempered with how long per day/week/month you need to use itandthe quality of result required.Some spend $400+ on a Metcal iron and you can get a DSO for as much.

author: worsthorse
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 28, 2019, 09:01:18 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on September 28, 2019, 08:48:21 pmI dunno. I think working your way up the price/performance curve has a lot of advantages, especially with complex test gear. You learn how to make things work, what features matter, why to spend money on good connectors and cables, how to characterize your gear, etc.But then I am cheap bastard who rarely enjoys spending a dime on somethingbetterwhen something I already have works. Desoldering equipment is a good example. I used solder wick and a decent iron quite happily for years before I was doing enough rework to invest in a Hakko FR-301 Do I dig the Hakko? You betcha. But I don't regret building up large amounts of rework fu by using simpler tools for a while first.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 28, 2019, 09:18:35 pm
content: Quote from: wch on September 28, 2019, 09:01:18 pmMe too, in times gone by.Now with considerably more experience much less so.As our skill set and experience grows we need better tools so not to be caught in the middle of a job with sub par gear.Like the example that Nico gives about cordless tools......I've had so many and some reasonable brands too, but when you start a job you need to be able to finish it !Professional grade tools are one thing if you are to use them daily so they are indeed worth the investment yet balance that against the also valuable time the hobbyist has to pursue their chosen leisure time activity which gets back to the OP's question, how valuable is our time vs the outlay for better equipment ?It comes down to budget vs what's good stuff or some POS.

author: Grandchuck
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 28, 2019, 09:27:45 pm
content: One other thing to consider is the possibility of reselling an item. Some folks here have invested quite a bit of money in an 8-1/2 digit DMM and some may have felt that a resale might be in the future.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 28, 2019, 10:01:01 pm
content: Quote from: Grandchuck on September 28, 2019, 09:27:45 pmIn general test equipment depreciates even faster than a car. Sure a $50 oscilloscope is hard to lose money on but there is a lot of gear out there which is not worth much. Logic analysers are a good example. You can buy setups costing US $250k when new for less than $1000 about 10 years later. Milli-cents on the dollar.In other words: test equipment retaining value is a myth. Like cars there are a few exceptional old-timers but most is just a 'dime a dozen' and outdates rapidly due to the progress of technology.

author: 0culus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 28, 2019, 10:11:22 pm
content: I'm pretty sure VNAs are about the only test equipment that is able to command high prices even when they get older.I got my HP spectrum analyzers (8566A and 8568B right now) for less than 1k for each one. The former had a list price of more than 50 kilobucks, the latter about 30 kilobucks.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 28, 2019, 10:17:50 pm
content: Quote from: 0culus on September 28, 2019, 10:11:22 pmThings are a changing when you can now buy a new 1.5 GHz VNA/SA combo for just $2k.

author: DaJMasta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 28, 2019, 10:19:32 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on September 28, 2019, 10:01:01 pmNot exactly, but what you said is true: in the first like 10 years they depreciate really quickly, in the next 5 or so they depreciate slower, and then they stay around the same, sometimes getting more expensive. This is more true on the high end, where the equipment that's still a good performer but was maybe top of the line 20 years ago will still command a good price - not one that you could justify buying a new one and reselling for a significant portion, but you could likely buy for a fair price used today and get most of your money back in 5 years.

author: worsthorse
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 28, 2019, 10:53:28 pm
content: Quote from: DaJMasta on September 28, 2019, 10:19:32 pmWe've really wandered away from the OP's question but...This is one of the reasons I buy older test gear. If it has been reasonably well cared for, and I am willing to make room for it, repair/calibrate it, and put up with "less convenience", the price/performance can be amazing. I use fifty year old tektronix gear that works well on a daily basis and which cost me a fraction of a modern performance equivalent replacement. Would I approach TE this way if my job depended upon it or if I didn't know how to take care of it?No. But I am a hobbyist now, able to (most of the time) fix what breaks, and so usually happy to trade time for money.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 28, 2019, 11:01:47 pm
content: Quote from: wch on September 28, 2019, 10:53:28 pmMuch depends on where you are and your personal skill set.As the OP is in Brazil I doubt he has the range of SH TE available to him you Yanks do.Been there done that here in NZ and good stuff is much harder to find.

author: maginnovision
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 28, 2019, 11:15:10 pm
content: Brazilians really do get shafted it seems.

author: 0culus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2019, 12:28:47 am
content: Quote from: tautech on September 28, 2019, 10:17:50 pmGet back to me when it will replace say, an HP 8753.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2019, 01:28:27 am
content: Quote from: 0culus on September 29, 2019, 12:28:47 am3 or 6 GHz model ?Remember it's only a VNA whereas some of this new stuff has a much greater capability set in just a single and compact unit. Not everyone has unlimited bench space where to place their toys let alone the pallet grade racking on which to do so.Anyways the new $3.4k 3.2 GHz SVA will certainly whip a 3 GHz HP 8753 as a more capable tool with its much greater feature set if the buyer is looking for a single instrument with a bundle of capability.

author: 0culus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2019, 01:44:18 am
content: 6 GHz, so it is adequate to cover the 5.8 GHz band.

author: Electro Detective
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2019, 01:51:13 am
content: If you can get the job done well enough with 'decent' cheap gear, and gear prestige isn't a factor,why blow big money on exotic gear that may gather dust, decrease in value, field use 'unfriendly' and a thief magnet,or worse > after limited use and the warranty expires.. no parts or service info, as is the case today on a LOT of gear,that shafts even the most clued and experienced techs and EEsi.e. buy what you need and can afford now,and script up a wish list for future purchases,you may not need them as much as you thought,and other factors like buying used, or better 'proven' models and cheaper,or you may realise certain brands/models with initial eye candy appeal are overhyped unreliable/dodgy technology with abandoned firmware updates = stuff you can't give awaythat everyone on the internet finds out about real fast.. to avoid !

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2019, 03:21:44 am
content: What line to cross are you talking about ?As enthusiast, I have the luxury of time which I can bear the patience of waiting, even for years."Used" quality stuffs but cheap, most of the times.

author: rodpp
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2019, 03:32:34 am
content: Sometimes you face some bargains and then, even without a immediate use to that test equipment, you buy it because it is a very good deal and you may use it one day.The problem is that depending of the gear, even bargains may be expensive. Its cheap compared to the price that the item normally sells, but it is not cheap as chips.After some time you realize that the equipment was barely used, if used at all.

author: AG6QR
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2019, 05:33:35 am
content: I don't mind paying for nice ergonomics for gear I use often, especially when it's not terribly expensive.I use a multimeter all the time, and life's too short to waste on cheap multimeters. I don't need the absolute top of the line, but I want something well above the bottom of the line. Truth be told, I could get most of my work done with a cheap Harbor Freight CenTech meter, but I'd be swearing at it too often. For me, it's well worth getting a nice dependable and trustworthy Fluke, with a nice set or two of test leads.Likewise simple hand tools like screwdrivers. The cheapest ones fit neither the hands nor the screws so well. Screwdrivers are used all the time, and decent ones aren't very expensive.I have a few power supplies for different purposes, but my favorite general purpose one is an old HP E3610A that I got used off of eBay. It's only 30 Watts, but it's a high quality linear supply, for professional use in its day, and it really works well. It was not expensive. It has digital meters, but lacks digital control (has nice 10-turn pots for current and voltage).On the other hand, for a signal generator or oscilloscope, getting a top quality professional unit is significantly more costly than a basic hobbyist grade unit. I stay fairly low in the price range on this kind of gear.If you're a professional running a business, you need to run the numbers (at least as a crude estimate) and determine whether a piece of equipment will generate enough revenue for you to recoup the investment you make in it. Sometimes you may rent gear, particularly if you'll only use it occasionally for certain unusual jobs. If you're an amateur, all you have to do is ask yourself whether it will bring you enough enjoyment to be worth the price tag. That means that sometimes, amateurs can get better equipment than professionals.

author: LeonR
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2019, 03:04:04 pm
content: I tend to buy stuff that on that mid-range between quality/features and price. I've splurged on a single tool since the electronics "fever" bite me: a Goot TP-100 desolder gun (some ~USD250 on the tool plus some extra nozzles and accessories):Quite handy for THT, although you need to add a little solder to some components that are unwilling to leave the PCB.Quote from: maginnovision on September 28, 2019, 11:15:10 pmYea, and I feel sorry for people with only local access to stuff. Taxes everywhere and crazy margins makes our gear (and all high-end electronics stuff as mobiles, computer parts, etc) be one of the most expensive in the world, if not the #1.

author: GerryR
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2019, 03:42:36 pm
content: Decisions today are harder than say 10 years ago. Too many "clones" around and too many instruments hit the field that are not fully tested. It's accepted because most often the users are debugging the equipment, and the manufacturer is just doing a firmware update, in many cases; that might just be their plan. But I still think the old line of "getting what you pay for" still holds true. I think that sticking with the name brands and proven equipment, especially if you make a living with it, is the best approach. I know that I have quoted jobs that required equipment that I didn't have, but intended buying, once I landed the job. I used the would-be profits from that job to purchase the equipment to do the job. Then I had the equipment and expanded my offerings for future work. Buy the best you can afford, whether hobbyist or professional; you won't be disappointed.

author: dcbrown73
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2019, 04:05:21 pm
content: If you use it sparingly and it does what you need it to. No need to upgrade.If you use it often and it's easier / faster to use. Then it might be worth the upgrade.Many people use Rigol 1054 scopes professionally without any real issue, yet so many people complain about how slow it is. That doesn't stop them, but then again. If you waste 3 minutes an hour once a month, not a big deal. If you waste 3 minutes an hour 160 hours per month. You've wasted one entire day that month or over two weeks per year. You should probbly upgrade.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2019, 04:10:43 pm
content: Quote from: dcbrown73 on September 29, 2019, 04:05:21 pmThe latter may be aware that there are better tools out there. See my cordless drill example.

author: dcbrown73
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2019, 05:17:14 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on September 29, 2019, 04:10:43 pmI've read the entire thread prior to my post. My statement was setting up my next statement. Basically, If you seldom use something; upgrading to far more expensive device might not be even be worth it unless your flush with cash burning a hole in your pocket.I mean, if you only drive one a week to go to the grocery store. Do you really need to upgrade a basic model car to a Lamborghini? You can and you can get there faster, but no; you really don't need to. The basic car will get you there just fine.

author: tv84
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2019, 05:19:00 pm
content: My 2 cents:That's the $1M question! As nico said, sometimes the cheaper tools are the worst investment.Myself, I'mtrying(underlined!) to loose the habit of buying things with characteristics that I don't need ATM. And, usually turns out that I'll never need them... So, many times, initial "cheap" things become "expensive" later on.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2019, 06:15:55 pm
content: Quote from: dcbrown73 on September 29, 2019, 05:17:14 pmNobody is saying to go out and buy the most expensive model available. Just go one step up. Don't get the basic car which has trouble to get up to speed quick enough to safely get onto a highway and has crappy seats. Get model with the 1.6 engine and good seats instead of the 1.4 base model. It doesn't need to cost a whole lot extra to get a lot of extra comfort. I don't get why people get so black & white all the time. If it isn't cheap then it must be insanely expensive. Getting back to my cordless drill example: the price difference between the cheap crappy one and the Makita was like 35 euro where the Makita included a nice case and two batteries instead of one.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2019, 07:22:19 pm
content: Quote from: wch on September 28, 2019, 10:53:28 pmI'm the same way, although I tend to prefer gear just a bit newer, mid-late 90s is kind of the sweet spot. I have a nearly $40k DSO that I think I invested around $600 in all said and done, it's a bit of a boat anchor but there's no way I could buy a 1GHz 4 channel scope new for anywhere near that price range. That said, if all you need is 100-200MHz then a modern Rigol or Siglent may make more sense. Technology marches on and performance that once cost a fortune gets to be within the reach or ordinary people. There is something about cost-is-no-object high end older gear that is maintained even as inexpensive equipment catches up in terms of features and performance. It tends to have a feeling of precision and quality that just isn't there in "cheap" stuff.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2019, 07:25:53 pm
content: Quote from: tv84 on September 29, 2019, 05:19:00 pmI don't remember who it was but someone once said "Buy good tools and only cry once", I've generally gone with that philosophy and it has rarely let me down. It's extremely infrequent that I look back and wish I'd bought a cheaper tool but more times than I care to count I've tried to save money by buying something cheaper only to later end up spending more to get what I should have gotten in the first place. In those cases the cheaper option ended up being a complete waste of money.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2019, 08:22:22 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on September 29, 2019, 07:22:19 pmI know the cure for that: buy a piece of real (not rebadged) Lecroy equipment!

author: worsthorse
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2019, 08:55:54 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on September 29, 2019, 07:22:19 pmI agree with you on both counts.For the OP, some hints before you start buying used high end TE. If you are new to this, stick to stuff that is late-80s and up because getting parts for older gear is hard. Don't buy gear for which you can't find a service manual and schematics. Look at them both before you buy. Don't buy older gear if you aren't willing to figure out how to calibrate it or fix it, because you will need to do both. Stick to brand names but avoid becoming a sole vendor snob. Do your homework: join email lists, see what's available in the equipment category across vendors and time, learn how to read specs, make sure you understand what accessories are needed to make your purchase useful. Learn how things are priced and don't depend on ebay solely for that information. Finally,forget the posts about the $10 1Ghz as-is ebay oscilloscope that turned out to just need a new fuse. Those are powerball lottery storiesand, unfortunately, won't happen for you.You can acquire high performance equipment at reasonable prices if you are patient and reasonably diligent. Last thing... as noted above, if all you need is a decent 100MHz two channel scope and you want to spend your time working on your project rather than a piece of test equipment, go buy a Rigol or Siglent. They have a lot of decent entry and mid-level TE that just works, is already calibrated, and has a warranty.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2019, 09:49:01 pm
content: Something to watch out for with high end gear is that it often contains a lot of very specialized parts which is what enabled it to offer such cutting edge performance at the time. These specialized parts are usually prohibitively expensive if they can be obtained at all so you can end up with a piece of equipment that is scrap even though you know exactly what is wrong with it. This is something that I find extremely frustrating. I do like tinkering with and repairing older gear though and in many cases I have more than one of something so I'm not dead in the water if something breaks down. Some stuff, like the hybrids in some of the later Tek analog scopes have high failure rates, other stuff while irreplaceable, rarely fails.

author: TheSteve
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 29, 2019, 10:08:57 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on September 29, 2019, 01:28:27 amYet I don't think that will diminish the value of the older HP VNA's at all. They are trusted in the industry, have great dynamic range, support many cal kits and most support viewing S11/S21/S12/S22 at the same time.