Dress standards for engineers - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: VK3DRB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 14, 2014, 10:05:52 pm
content: Many years ago I had to wear a suit and tie at IBM with a white shirt... to fix card punch machines in my field. Today, I find few engineers wear ties in my country. In fact go into the city of Melbourne and you see very few men at all wear ties. Usually wearing a tie means you are going for a job interview.At our workplace, the dress standard is open neck shirt and trousers (not jeans), but it is complete causal on Friday. I wear leather soled black leather Florsheim shoes at work, even on casual Fridays not because they look good, but because of ESD purposes.Should engineers dress up? Or is looking dapper in the workplace a load of? Should we take pride in how we look, whether we are dealing with customers or just interacting with an oscilloscope or a compiler? What is the typical dress code in other countries?Here is a T-shirt I wear in some Fridays. I would have had disciplinary action used against me if I had dare worn this at IBM.

author: dr.diesel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 14, 2014, 10:10:28 pm
content: All three of the big places I've worked is jeans and just about any T-shirt. Sports, beer, cars etc, just about anything, no tank-tops though.

author: Tinkerer
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 14, 2014, 10:12:18 pm
content: At my company, the dress ranges from jeans and a tshirt to actual suits. Typically though, people are only dressed with suits if they are seeing customers. Even the vice president wanders around in jeans and a tshirt most of the time.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 14, 2014, 10:13:55 pm
content: Ties are for sales and marketing bullshitters.Business casual. Polo shirt ,shirt (long or short sleeve depending on season), trousers or jeans. shoes ( not sneakers , tennis shoes or the likes )Real engineers wear coveralls , a hat and a bandana and are covered in soot , coal dust and grease. Steam engines produce that ...

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 14, 2014, 10:14:53 pm
content: My workplace is smart casual, basically nothing you'd be embarrassed to go to the shops/cinema/pub in.

author: linux-works
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 14, 2014, 10:15:58 pm
content: depends on a lot of things.I spent my first bunch of years in the boston area and the east coast of the US is much more conservative than the west coast. I did wear jeans and sneakers and when it got hot, short pants and a tee shirt. most people wore button down shirts or polo style shirts which are a step up from a simple tee shirt.when I moved to silicon valley, though, I found I was over-dressingover time, I converted to wearing sandals and shorts most every day to work (the weather is nice here and people are much more casual, as well).its also cultural. in my field (software) most of my co-workers are from india and china and korea. folks from other countries seem to not want to dress too casually. I've never once seen any of my foreign co-workers wear shorts and rarely do they even wear tee shirts.for interviews, I will wear long pants (jeans) and a nice polo shirt, sometimes a company logo shirt (still polo style, with a collar). I will never ever ever wear a tie for work or for an interview. if I saw an engineer wear a tie for an interview, I'd think he was 'new around here' or was more of a management type person

author: lewis
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 14, 2014, 10:21:33 pm
content: No dress code in my business, wear whatever the hell you like. I love it when sales reps come in all suited and booted and there'e me in a cheap t-shirt covered in fag* ash and flux and jeans with solder holes in.*that's British for 'cigarette', our American friends

author: Phaedrus
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 14, 2014, 10:38:11 pm
content: Here it's almost anything. T-shirt, jeans, shorts during summer. They do ask you to put on a polo and good jeans or khakis when the top brass is in town. But that's like once a year.

author: Rigby
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 14, 2014, 10:51:57 pm
content: Quote from: free_electron on March 14, 2014, 10:13:55 pm100% agree. Not always true, but my first thought when I see someone in a tie is that that dude is either being forced to wear a tie or he wants to wear a tie, and neither are good. People that approach you with a tie and a smile want something you have.

author: con-f-use
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 14, 2014, 10:54:05 pm
content: The only places I find appropriate for dress coats are banks. Not because it creates an air of confidence and professionalism but because I want them to suffer in their cheap suits!

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 14, 2014, 11:00:16 pm
content: Many years ago I was working at a computer show, demoing something I'd designed. Someone came up to me and said "You're not wearing a suit, you must know what you're talking about"....At trade shows, dressing down is a good way to avoid unwanted hassle from sales people - once you get talking to the people you actually want to talk to, they quickly realise you're serious regardless of clothing.

author: N2IXK
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 14, 2014, 11:01:53 pm
content: Jeans and T-shirts are the rule at the lab I work in, as well. Khakis and polo shirt for a major client meeting or similar a few times a year.

author: KJDS
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 14, 2014, 11:12:11 pm
content: When I'm contracting then I'll wear a suit, though the jacket is usually hung on the back of my chair and I don't always wear a tie, though there is usually one in my suit pocket in case it's necessary.Some places I've worked at have had an unofficial "no jeans" rule, which is odd, especially when it was enforced on dress down Fridays.

author: lewis
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 14, 2014, 11:13:36 pm
content: Can't imagine you in a suit Kev...

author: linux-works
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 14, 2014, 11:17:38 pm
content: a job I had (over 25 yrs ago) caused me to travel to the UK and once even to oz, to do some internal (employee) training. I was teaching the course and for the Edu guys, we had to wear a tie while on stand-up. I did notice that the techies that I dealt with in both the UK and oz were dressed up a lot more than the folks back home in the US were. they seemed much more formal, overall.the most strict was when I had to teach in japan for a week. the students ALL wore white dress shirts, ties and jackets and they wore their jackets while in class, even while sitting in their seats. I don't think anyone felt comfortable enough to take off their jacket and put it on the back of their seat. VERY formal social structure, there.

author: KJDS
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 14, 2014, 11:44:58 pm
content: Quote from: lewis on March 14, 2014, 11:13:36 pmThe last contract i did I turned up for the interview in my best Armani, slightly concerned that my hair had become very long whilst I'd been working abroad. Fortunately the bloke doing the questioning had longer hair than me. One of the permies in that place once looked us up and down and inquired, "was it the same hedge you were dragged through?"

author: denelec
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2014, 12:22:35 am
content: No dress code where I work.But nobody come to work dressed in rags.I often wear (clean) jeans.Like they said in Dilbert: "A well-dressed engineer has no credibility".http://dilbert.com/strips/comic/2004-11-07/

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2014, 12:29:03 am
content: Depends on where you are going. I usually wear a shirt (with buttons) and trousers (not jeans) but no tie. For some reason that makes me look 'technical' altough at some of my clients I'm completely overdressed that way.

author: Hypernova
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 15, 2014, 01:25:02 am
content: Quote from: linux-works on March 14, 2014, 10:15:58 pmGive it some time, it was probably like that in my dad's time here too. But these days no self respecting RD (what we call eng's who do actual R&D) would wear a suit to work. The only restriction in most places is no shorts.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2014, 02:02:03 am
content: Dressy Engineer:- Open neck shirt,tailored shorts,long socks & Hush Puppies."Dressed down" Engineer:-Tee shirt,"footy" shorts,steel toed boots----Optional:- liberal coating of Red dirt, & a cold "tinny" in his hand.In other words,"Ginger Beers" dress a lot like Techs!

author: GreyWoolfe
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 15, 2014, 02:22:37 am
content: I'm a remote field service tech. When working from home, T-shirt, shorts and flip flops. If I have to actually go to a site, business casual: company logoed polo shirt and slacks. The sites get dress down Friday, we don't.

author: ajb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2014, 02:25:01 am
content: We generally request that everyone at least wear pants. Otherwise we're pretty flexible.One of our techs is not a fan of shoes as a concept and used to come to work in bedroom slippers. He wised up after a blob of solder found its way to his foot.

author: Robert.Adams
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2014, 02:43:53 am
content: Quote from: free_electron on March 14, 2014, 10:13:55 pmSame at my company. Business casual seems to be the industry standard. So many people here seem to be lucky enough to be allowed jeans...

author: linux-works
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2014, 02:51:21 am
content: Quote from: ajb on March 15, 2014, 02:25:01 amI forget who it was: maybe google or maybe SGI or some other company like that; but there was a famous quote about coming to work in 'bunny slippers' and the fact that it was ok, as long as you got your work doneI spent a few years working at SGI (what is now the 'google campus' but it used to be 25 buildings of SGI) and that was one of the most casual places I ever worked at. and how do you like this for a switch: engineers all had offices (doors, hardwalls) and managers had cubes! they called them 'pods' for some reasonengineers did 'real work' and so got quiet offices. managers were secondary, in the pecking order and so they usually didn't get offices. a real shame to see SGI go /dev/null and even worse, seeing google buy up all their real estate ;(

author: VK3DRB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2014, 04:37:55 am
content: Quote from: linux-works on March 15, 2014, 02:51:21 amIn Japan (IBM) managers did not have offices - they shared desks like everyone else. I liked that. Managers and engineers were equals. Some Dickensian workplaces have managers getting car parking and the workers don't. It should be first come, first served.I had my own office in the past. Not very practical when you have to interact with other engineers but it does have its benefits. At IBM I once had a desk next to the coffee/chat machine. The machine used to make a drilling type noise whenever someone pressed the coffee button. I lasted one week before I spat the dummy and demanded to relocate to the engineering lab where I could work in peace and quiet with the occasional visit from fellow engineers.People who do not program or develop electronics have no idea how annoying noises can affect productivity.

author: pickle9000
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2014, 04:42:46 am
content: I believe clothing should be worn in the lab.Footware is optional.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 15, 2014, 04:46:33 am
content: Quote from: VK3DRB on March 14, 2014, 10:05:52 pmYou have dress standard ?QuoteDress codes are bullshit, as is any question about what anyoneshouldwear. You wear what you want. If that's thongs and shorts, and a "who farted" T-Shirt, or if it's an Armani suit in the lab, who cares?

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 15, 2014, 04:48:30 am
content: My first job interview at Altium I met one of the directors who had shorts, thongs, t-shirt, and smelled and looked like he just got in from the beach. Bare feet once in his office.

author: Stonent
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2014, 05:27:36 am
content: Where I work engineers who sit at desks seem to wear a long sleeved button up shirt, slacks, and dressy shoes, departments heads tend to wear that as well.Engineers who get up from their desks to go into the manufacturing area typically wear the plant floor uniform.The uniform worn on the plant floor is tan or navy blue pants, and either a navy blue polo style shirt or a light blue oxford shirt. They also wear steel toed shoes and a belt that doesn't have a metal buckle.The IT department is expected to wear the plant floor uniform. I personally prefer the short sleeved oxford and tan pants, since that's what many of the supervisors in the plant wear. My direct supervisor always wears navy blue pants and a long sleeve oxford. Our department manager wears a navy blue polo style shirt that's made of that synthetic material that's supposed to keep you cool and ironed tan cargo pants.We've got a fairly wide range of engineers though, Mechanical, Design, Industrial and maybe one or two Electrical.

author: linux-works
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2014, 06:37:42 am
content: the concept of uniforms and creative minds don't seem to mix, well. maybe the jobs that require strict uniforms don't -want- individual thought; they want groupthink.sounds like a living hell to me.

author: David_AVD
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2014, 06:43:44 am
content: There's nothing wrong with a dress code (or uniforms) if workers are in contact with the public. If you're "behind the scenes" I guess it really shouldn't matter what you wear as long as it's not offensive and is appropriate for the conditions.

author: linux-works
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2014, 07:01:20 am
content: even if I'm a 'public', some guy wearing a uniform does not inspire confidence any more than a guy in normal dress.if anything, it makes a person seem more like a robot. its dehumanizing to have to lose your individuality.not everyone wants it or respects it. I find it very odd, in fact.

author: GeoffS
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 15, 2014, 07:16:20 am
content: Apart from a stint in the RAAF, I've never worked anywhere that required a company uniform.The dress requirements in the various large IT companies for which I've worked, varied from suit and tie (Honeywell - 1980s)) to neat casual (IBM - 2007).

author: linux-works
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2014, 07:40:32 am
content: I can see how uniforms benefit management. again, it encourages following orders and not questioning the superiors. I don't quite see how it benefits the individuals who are forced or pressured to conform. I realize this varies a lot, culture to culture. like I said, in japan it was so structured that everyone wore a white shirt and tie and no one dared break from the group-look.

author: AndyC_772
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2014, 07:50:51 am
content: I work as a consulting engineer, and I generally wear a suit and tie when I go to meet a customer for the first time. Thereafter, I know what's expected in their workplace and can dress accordingly.Generally, here in the UK, it's appropriate for a visitor to dress in a slightly less casual way than regular employees. Although I wouldn't normally wear a tie if I'm going to be working in a lab environment, I do keep some reasonably smart 'customer facing' shirts for the purpose. (If they're made of something that's easy to clean after they've got engine oil on them, so much the better! Electronics doesn't always implycleanelectronics...)

author: VK3DRB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2014, 08:37:03 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on March 15, 2014, 04:48:30 amAltium's crappy footprints looks like they were designed by some bloke in shorts, thongs, t-shirt and bare feet who just come in off the beach. Not to mention the licensing/updates/vaults user experience.

author: VK3DRB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2014, 09:38:51 am
content: I guess the aim of a dress code is to impress visitors who might walk in. You would not wear shorts, t-shirt and bare feet to your wedding would you? It means respecting others and conforming to norms. We all largely conform, whether you are aware of it or not. Wearing T-shirts that could be offensive to customers, colleagues or suppliers is generally rude, ignorant and stupid. A dress code is a part of expectations and projecting a respective image to your work situation.A professional image goes a long way.If I am evaluating a professional product to use and see evidence of sloppy software, hardware or manuals, I generally end it there. The company does not deserve my time. If I visit an electronics company where the workers are dressed in offensive T-shirts, wear thongs (these are flip flops to Americans) and look like yobbos my first impressions would be negative, but not near as bad if their engineers and programmers lacked coding standards or PCB design standards.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2014, 10:42:14 am
content: Well, the company said I'm not allowed to wear shorts and Australian safety shoes at work, and I'm glad for it. Some brilliant people should also realize that they should include sandals+socks also.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2014, 11:31:40 am
content: If it's warm I wear shorts. -period- Aircondition has been invented a long time ago...

author: dfmischler
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2014, 11:51:08 am
content: My favorite place for "dress code" was where my boss wore a tee shirt and shorts in the lab in the summer, but added a bath robe in his office because it was "too cold" in there.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2014, 12:11:53 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on March 15, 2014, 11:31:40 amI cannot agree with you. You're at your workplace, not at the beach, people are getting payed to work, not to be bothered by furry feets. Especially if you mean "dutch warm", also known as more than 5 degrees celsius.

author: BBQ
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2014, 12:14:36 pm
content: ESD-shoes! Except that, anything seems to be tolerated.

author: steve_w
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2014, 12:15:27 pm
content: A most interesting topic for me, when i left the air force (in the late 80s) to join the civil aviation authority I had a real problem, after 20 years in the airforce having worn a uniform every day. I was quite perplexed on what to wear, in the end I wore pants and a short sleeved shirt just like i did in the airforce, no one cared. Today I wear the same thing except on dress down fridays when I wear shorts. I was surprised to see no reference to OHS and the proliferation of hi-vis and safety shoes.I now work for a defence contractor and our remaining dress rule is wearing closed in shoes in the lab (its a weapon lab) and we move heavy (inert) weapons and god help the person who drops a bomb on his foot cause his shoes won't save him.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2014, 02:32:08 pm
content: Quote from: NANDBlog on March 15, 2014, 12:11:53 pmJust wait until you are in an office under a flat roof on a warm day. Some people don't seem to mind what they wear though. When I was the head of IT in a stock brokers firm there was an interesting dress code incident. An IT tech from a bank had to install some software. This guy came in short pants and a see-through shirt. When he left I said to the lady from the administration she finally had an IT guy around she would want to look at. She replied 'I think he's gay'

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2014, 02:55:07 pm
content: When the AC died and we were working at 60C plus dress code was Australian safety shoes and shorts with a bandana to keep the sweat out of the eyes. T shirt optional and Raven got a nice tan as he had the window side. You can see my old office on GE at 10cm resolution........ No street view, they would have had a hard time getting in there.

author: schwarz-brot
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2014, 03:54:23 pm
content: I like wearing suits at meetings (no tie) as it often brings me into the position of being taken serious by the right persons (I am only working besides studying but managed to give some valuable hints for my company.) It's all about psychology, I guess. My bosses of course know that I only talk if I know what I am talking about. So if no strangers are around I wear what I wear when working: dirty jeans and easy to clean T-shirts. I like to get dirty and I do get dirty. For my bosses it is important to know that I would not look like that when I visited a customer or came to a meeting with strangers.For those who wonder why some people sit down with their jackets on: That is what it should be like. If you take off the jacket you might as well wear anything else but a suit. Also it is not allowed to stand up or walk around with an opened jacket! Opened jacket is only allowed if you sit down. Anything else is a fashion faux pas. Tells a lot if a person gives a shit.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2014, 04:02:41 pm
content: There is no formal "dress code" at the places I have worked so far, apart from one lab that prohibited open toed shoes.When I worked at Intel, there were a few Indian ladies who always dressed like it was winter, scarf and all. It looked really strange when it was in the triple digits outside. Turns out they spend most of their time in the server room, where it gets down to 65F with a good draft on the front of the racks.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2014, 04:37:15 pm
content: Quote from: NANDBlog on March 15, 2014, 12:11:53 pmif the boss can't be arsed to provide a temperature controlled work environment he'll have to live with me walking in in shorts.it's 2014 for crying out loud. Airconditioned buildings are up there with other basic needs such as food and water

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2014, 04:41:31 pm
content: Quote from: NANDBlog on March 15, 2014, 12:11:53 pmYou could trynotbeing bothered by furry feets. I find people tend to be significantly happier when they don't let others' personal choices bother them.

author: linux-works
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2014, 04:42:45 pm
content: Quote from: schwarz-brot on March 15, 2014, 03:54:23 pmclearly, I don't give a shit. and 'fashion' at work? again, who cares! this isn't a social party and you are not there to pick up girlsyou are there to do the work and being comfortable helps, not hurts. formal clothes are restraining and other than being a show-off, I can't see how wearing ties and jackets and tight shoes helps anything but the clothing sellers

author: jamesp15
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2014, 04:58:17 pm
content: At my current job: when I am at the "office" I can wear whatever I like as long as its tasteful..When I go onsite (which is 80% of the time where I am) I have to wear a company provided/logo'd Polo style shirt, safety shoes (composite toe and reinforced shanks, non conductive) and black/navy-blue pants (they will provide them, but I usually buy and wear my own that are commonly sold as "tactical" pants, with lots of pockets sort of like military/police pants. Very useful with those pockets to keep stuff in and very comfortable for me.)My old job I had to wear overalls/jumpsuits provided by the company which was good cause you got very dirty very quickly.I have no problems with dress codes at places, they write the checks each week so its their call IMO, if I dont like the dress code I look for work elsewhere...

author: con-f-use
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 15, 2014, 05:06:47 pm
content: Quote from: schwarz-brot on March 15, 2014, 03:54:23 pmThis utterance tells me, you are snob.As long as people are clean and their cloth cover as much as shorts, t-shirt and regular shoes would, I don't see why anyone should care. Period.The only thing cloth tell you about a person is their wealth. And wealth is not a criterion to judge people by. Literally everyone who has a few hundred bucks to spare can buy a decent suit. Its not hard. Not everyone can give good, coherent and convincing talks, do complex math or be a friendly, hard-working creative person.Moreover when I see someone, who clearly spends a lot of time grooming, selecting cloth and being fashionable, I assume that time has to come from somewhere. And that somewhere just might be an occupation that benefits more people than just the peacock in front of me - work for instance.

author: KJDS
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2014, 07:07:13 pm
content: It does seem odd to me that so many engineers moan that they are not treated as well as other professionals, yet can't be bothered to dress smartly. Walk into the accounts, or legal, or even the purchasing department of any large company in the uk and people will usually be smartly dressed.The only place I have worked that I didn't dress smartly was also the place where I'd regularly use a lathe or milling machine.

author: linux-works
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2014, 07:15:35 pm
content: like I said in a previous post, when I traveled to the UK for business, everyone was dressed 'up' (business style and no tee shirts or jeans).it all depends on what you are used to. I've had so many good experiences with engineers dressed in so-called 'jesus shoes' (lol) and tie dyes that I almost prefer it and when I see someone dressed like that, I know he's not out to impress people with 'fashion' statements. we had a few characters at cisco (back in the early 90's when I worked there) who wore only tie dyes, sandals and had long hair and beards; and you know, they were the experts in the company! there was no dress code at all in the early cisco days, at least for engineers. every wednesday nite we had a thing called 'beer and cookies' (lol, that's what they called it) and the students from the training centers would come by for the evening social and get to meet and talk with the 'fuzzy ugly engineers'. I don't recall anyone being put off by down-dressing. again, if you needed a real answer to a question, you'd SEEK OUT such characterswhat would work in the bay area would not work in a more conservative culture. I realize that. its one reason I choose to stay here in the bay area. dress code is simply not an issue for most companies around here and they could care less what you look like. to me, that's a correct set of values. ymmv, of course.

author: Neilm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2014, 09:38:13 pm
content: I have worked at places that required shirt and tie at minimum. The funniest thing there was the fact that they made military vehicles so when I went out to work on them I had to wear the company provided white overall.

author: schwarz-brot
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2014, 10:14:44 am
content: Quote from: con-f-use on March 15, 2014, 05:06:47 pmMaybe. Or maybe you are too narrow minded to understand that knowing something about fashion is not a bad thing and everyone has his own interests. Second: I did my apprenticeship in a company that made world leading textile machinery. Naturally I know something about clothing. So this makes me a snob? Feels good O0Quote from: con-f-use on March 15, 2014, 05:06:47 pmWell, why would I care about miniskirts and stuff like that. I really like seeing more than regular clothes would cover. Of course depending on the person. But clearly would not be allowed at the factory grounds where I work. Would at least look funny with safety boots. So the question is - is that a good idea at a working place other than a bar? Please re-read my entry. I stated clearly that I normally would wear clothes that allow me to get dirty. Old, worn down jeans and stuff like that.Quote from: con-f-use on March 15, 2014, 05:06:47 pmNo suit for hundrets of bucks necessary. What I said was only that someone who dares to wear a suit should fu**** know HOW to wear it. And I think it is obvious that not everyone with a long beard and messy clothing can do complex math or is a friendly, hard-working or creative person. May as well be your occasional homeless. Who might possibly be good at math and the other stuff as well - who knows.Quote from: con-f-use on March 15, 2014, 05:06:47 pmI don't think any person will do fashion-stuff at work. This is what your spare time is for. And what you do at home is nothing anyone else should judge about. But please, don't be disappointed if that dressed up guy gets the sexy ladies.Please don't worry that I took your post to clarify my statements, there were some more which I could have quoted, but yours got me hooked by the "snob".Peace!

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2014, 11:26:55 am
content: Quote from: con-f-use on March 15, 2014, 05:06:47 pmForget about that. The really rich people don't care about how they look. It's only the wannabees who need to show off.

author: KJDS
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2014, 11:54:40 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on March 16, 2014, 11:26:55 amA friend of mine ran a pub with both me and several Rothschild as regular clientele.If there was a collection of battered old Volvos in the car park, and a group of blokes wearing old tweed asking for a discount on the bill, that would be the billionaires

author: AndyC_772
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2014, 12:41:05 pm
content: Quote from: schwarz-brot on March 16, 2014, 10:14:44 amI have to "dare" to wear a suit now?Come to think of it, I'm not sure I've ever done the training course. I certainly can't find my certificate, so it's probably expired anyway.Or maybe you're misjudging the relative importance of your particular industry's "rules" in a wider context...?

author: G0HZU
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2014, 01:34:12 pm
content: One elderly engineer I worked with many years ago always wore the same type of outfit every day. It didn't matter if it was sunny and hot or if there was a foot of snow on the ground in the depths of winter.He would always cycle to work in a thin white shirt, khaki (army?) shorts, jesus sandals and a flimsy orange rain mac. The mac often stayed on all day.

author: VK3DRB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2014, 01:41:48 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on March 16, 2014, 11:26:55 amNot always. Rich people who immigrate from a certain communist country do care how they look, because their culture involves saving face and showing off. Showing off wealth is considered bad taste in Australia, very bad taste in France and repugnant in Sweden. Ironically, these three countries are each far more egalitarian than the so-called communists.Australians are renown for being down to earth. An Aussie can be very wealthy, but he won't go around dressed up in top hat and tails, put on a fake aristocrat's accent and think he is better than everyone else. He is more likely to wear thongs, T-shirt and shorts and speak strine irrespective of his wealth because he will likely be treated with suspicion and even scorn otherwise.In the 70's there were still B.S artists around who spoke with a B.S. accent, especially those from privileged private schools. Fortunately they have either died off or been forced to adopt an Aussie strine accent so they can fit in and not be ostracised.

author: schwarz-brot
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2014, 11:30:18 pm
content: Quote from: AndyC_772 on March 16, 2014, 12:41:05 pmSorry, no native speaker here. Should be "someone who decides to wear a suit[...]"Peace.

author: Gribo
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2014, 08:35:47 am
content: The dress code here is jeans, T-shirt and this:http://www.birkenstock.com/images/kollektion2014/s/061360.pngThe marketing drones didn't like it at all

author: VK3DRB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2014, 10:23:57 am
content: I remember a bloke who had graduated from Melb Uni. After he got his first job, he boasted his non-conformist independence and started turning up in a flannelette shirt, shorts and runners. A few weeks later, management took him aside and had a word with him. He conformed. He went on to come a successful project manager and often wore a suit. We worked together at another company and often dressed in a suit.If a certain owner of an airline was an unknown and went for a job in a professional company looking like a yobbo, he'd be shown the door. He sets a poor example of dress etiquette.Most people do mature and change, but some people are just too arrogant too conform.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2014, 10:52:21 am
content: Here there is not much of a dress code. The younger engineers wear what they like which sometimes looks like it has been through some cutting machine instead of a washing machine but hey that is fashion probably. I wear for 10 years about the same kind of clothes, a shirt with multiple colours and blocks from Tommy Hilfiger because those are the only one with long enough sleeves to fit and a boss trousers with decent shoes, although sneakers and jeans are allowed. I sometimes do wear sneakers and jeans when I feel like it.What I do miss however are the guys with the ballpoints and calculator in their shirt pockets now that is how a real engineer is stereotyped

author: VK5RC
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 17, 2014, 11:15:05 am
content: I don't work in Engineering but how you dress reflects quite a bit about yourself, and others will quite reasonably make an assumption. If you are dealing with some guy with mismatching socks, you would not be far off from thinking his quality control might also be a bit haphazard.Over dressing can also project a wrong image. One work colleague of mine is always soooo neat it looks like he never does any work.The true 'nerds' don't just have the pens in the pocket but also have a plastic pocket protector!

author: Jope
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2014, 11:34:33 am
content: Quote from: VK3DRB on March 17, 2014, 10:23:57 amSo maturity means conforming to stupid rules and wearing uncomfortable clothes?I always thought that's the realm of kids...You make it sound as if not wearing suits is the same as being covered in feces.Being respectful, helpful and friendly to others has absolutelynothingto do with the clothes you wear.It's true that there are companies who have rigid dresscodes, and if you want to work there,you have to follow them. Fortunately, people who are talented can choose where they work,and I certainly will never work at such a place. I'm not a slave.By the way, would Dave's videos be better if he was wearing a suit?Would he be "more respectful" toward his viewers?

author: dr.diesel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2014, 11:57:49 am
content: Quote from: Jope on March 17, 2014, 11:34:33 amAbsolutely correct.Judging based on dress is no different than judging based on skin color, religion, physical appearance/weight, age, sex etc.

author: AndyC_772
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2014, 12:41:36 pm
content: ...except that how we dress is a personal choice, and the other factors you mention (with the possible exception of religion) are not.

author: dr.diesel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2014, 12:48:38 pm
content: Quote from: AndyC_772 on March 17, 2014, 12:41:36 pmExcept when forced by an Employer. If I meet with an engineer that is required to dress in a full suit, am I to draw a conclusion based on it?

author: con-f-use
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 17, 2014, 12:55:45 pm
content: Quote from: AndyC_772 on March 17, 2014, 12:41:36 pmSo weight and muscularity are not personal choices? How is that? Even skin colour is to some extend, I'm pretty sure my skin was darker last summer and would still be had I chosen to visit a tan studio. It's just stupid to judge character by appearance. If my company has a dress code, they better have practical reasons!QuoteSo if you put on socks of different colour it magically takes away your ability to do quality control? Interesting. Maybe if you put a chimpanzee in a suit, it becomes a penguin? Who knew!

author: Rigby
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2014, 01:35:19 pm
content: Well... It's very hard not to judge a person by their appearance, because just as AndyC said, it is a demonstration of personal choices. If there is a better way to know someone than knowing their personal choices then I don't know what it is.Alone, looking at personal choices is not enough. It's a good first start, sometimes. And once you learn to spot patterns, it iseerilyaccurate in a lot of ways. For example, it is very easy to spot someone that doesn't care for themselves, much. It is equally easy to know who does care for themselves generally. It's easy to spot people that care about their appearance but don't care about themselves, and it's easy to spot people who care about themselves but not their appearance.

author: dr.diesel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2014, 01:42:25 pm
content: Quote from: Rigby on March 17, 2014, 01:35:19 pmYou are of-course correct, right or not discrimination happens every day based on looks and dress etc. I've been sitting in the interview room since 2000 with teams of managers and engineers, a persons physical weight I'd say has the biggest impact on first impressions from my experience.

author: Rigby
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2014, 01:59:23 pm
content: Yes. As an overweight person I can definitely attest to the discrimination factor of this, but I won't say for a moment that they weren't right in their assumptions that something was wrong with me. They were often wrong about exactly WHAT was wrong with me, but they were definitely correct that something was up.I've lost 60lbs now, and am halfway toward my goal. Oddly, the most significant thing I've noticed is how much easier it is to think clearly. Partly this is due to weighing less, and how brain biology works when you're overweight, part of it is that I've worked out a lot of the issues I had which made bad eating decisions easy to make.edit: by the way, I'm not fishing for compliments here or anything like that, so feel free to skip that stuff. thanks in advance for thinking about it.

author: linux-works
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2014, 02:02:17 pm
content: Quote from: VK5RC on March 17, 2014, 11:15:05 amlets see, if we compared how a chinese sweatshop might be (in terms of how they dress, forced or by choice) and then compare how a bay area engineer usually dresses, you may find the bay area engineer to be dressing at a lower standard (more comfortable and not at all trying to impress a single person) - maybe by your standards you'd pick the sweatshop QA person over the guy who designed the thing they are now mass producing?what a really shallow way to judge a person's ability. its not uncommon to be judgemental like that, but its not accurate or productive. a guy with 'two mismatched socks' simply did not care about what he looked like. otoh, he might care a lot about how the code gets written or the boards soldered and wired. he might care a lot about the user interface and might take pains to try lots of variations until the right one shows itself.I totally 100% reject your notion of 'the clothes makes the man'. that was from a bygone era and no longer applies. bosses like to think it applies and those who 'love fashion' also think it applies, but in the real working world, there is absolutely ZERO correlation. for a few months, I had to do QA on a software project and I know for a fact I was the least 'dressy' dresser at my company. but you know, I found the bugs and made sure they were patched and retested until the flaws got down to an acceptable level. I was proud of what we shipped and it was damned near bug-free. and yet, many days I wore no socks at all (maybe my feet were mis-matched..)this isn't the 1800's any judgement by clothing is so backward! get with the times, people. stop being so plastic about how you judge someone.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2014, 02:27:43 pm
content: Quote from: linux-works on March 17, 2014, 02:02:17 pmhahaha you know that the skill of judging in a few seconds is how we evolved over tens of thousands of years? Good luck re-evolving that with a forum post.The whole purpose of quickly judging, black/white thinking , boxing is what allows us humans to function. If every decision you make takes two minutes you never get out of the door in the morning. I am not a biologist but saw a documentary some day about this, it was very interesting.That said, if you do judge don;t be afraid to admit you were wrong and accept it , thats the best one can do.

author: GreyWoolfe
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 17, 2014, 02:32:07 pm
content: Funny you mention mismatched socks. That seems to be one of the fashion trends now. My 5 year old granddaughter refuses to wear matched socks, even my wife wears mismatched socks with her scrubs (she is a MA in a doctor's office) This could be a fashion choice rather than personal QA. Just like breakfast, that, too, shall pass.I agree with Rigby. If your job allows shorts and t-shirt, you can still project a positive image. Regardless if you are in a shorts/t-shirt, business casual or suit and tie environment, take pride in your appearance. Make sure your clothes are clean and don't look like you slept in them. Shave (if applicable) comb your hair and use personal care products. If I walk into a business and I see 2 people, one in wrinkled clothes and uncombed hair and one dressed neatly regardless of type of clothing, I will go to the neatly dressed one every time.

author: Rigby
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2014, 02:42:18 pm
content: Quote from: linux-works on March 17, 2014, 02:02:17 pmClothes can't make the man, I agree. They can certainly unmake him.If I have a tattoo across my forehead that says "FUCK THA POLICE" and simultaneously claim that one can't know things about me based on my appearance, well, I'd bedead wrong. Clearly you'd be able to safely know things about me if I had that tattoo.So, I think it's safe to say that there is definitely knowledge about a person that can be ascertained with a high level of accuracy by personal appearance alone. Personal appearance is a list of personal decisions that are intentionally visible to everyone.

author: linux-works
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2014, 03:01:00 pm
content: your views are probably due to where you live and grew up. let me guess, you live in a conservative area of the country.where I live, the better engineers will be the ones in the most 'down' looking clothes. it seems the opposite of what you describe but its very real here, where I live.steve jobs didn't even shower or change clothes (its said) for the first x amount of years he was employed. went on to become of the richest and most successful people in world history.those that respect 'better dressers' have simply been conditioned to think that way. there is NO correlation that exists other than in some peoples' minds. but you will miss a lot of good talent if you ignore the bad dressers at work and seek out only the 'pretty ones' (lol).

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2014, 03:04:58 pm
content: Quote from: linux-works on March 17, 2014, 03:01:00 pmTerrible engineer, very good marketeer IMHO.

author: Rigby
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2014, 03:23:36 pm
content: Quote from: linux-works on March 17, 2014, 03:01:00 pmNo. Illinois.Quote from: linux-works on March 17, 2014, 03:01:00 pmWhere I live, the best engineers are the ones with the best references and who know how to do whatever we need them to do. It's easy to work out who is good and who is not with interviews.Quote from: linux-works on March 17, 2014, 03:01:00 pmAre you saying that Steve Jobs did what anyone could do? Are you saying that anyone who doesn't shower is goes on to become one of the richest and most successful people in history? Was Steve Jobs successful during his "I like to be oily" time? Steve Jobs had a whole lot of weird ideas about food, and the diet he chose for himself is a diet known to be very hard on the pancreas. Unsurprisingly, he died of complications from pancreatic cancer. Clearly not the sharpest knife in the drawer, even though he was successful as a marketer and very rich. I don't measure success the same way you do, I guess. Mass consumerism hypnosis is not something I would judge favorably in myself, even if it did make me rich.Quote from: linux-works on March 17, 2014, 03:01:00 pmI'm not talking about respecting better dressers, and I don't believe in that. If you're dressed a lot better than everyone else around you then I immediately distrust you.I'm talking about the other direction - that it's very, very easy to know that there is something wrong with someone based on their personal decisions. It is very easy to know that someone with a tattoo as I described earlier is not a level-headed person. Don't claim for a second that you would give someone with that tattoo on their forehead the same latitude you'd give someone who dressed like a damn normal person.Judging a person favorably due to dress is VERY different from judging a person unfavorably due to dress.

author: linux-works
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2014, 03:33:55 pm
content: if you are ever near mtn view, go down shoreline toward the google campus. the park is public (behind google, a little walk away) and you can stroll around on google campus, as well. lots of people are outside since calif weather is generally niceyou can SEE what the typical young (to me, very young!) engineer dresses like. if you are turned off by tats, you would have a cardiac arrest seeing what the new young superstars are looking like. or wannabee superstars.some companies don't care and actually like having 'weirdos' work thereI know it sounds strange, but trust me - there's a lot more to the world than illinois. lots of places really are turned off by 'stuffy'; and that includes people who think that style of dress (in particular, conformance) matters.I suppose you could make a spectrum or graph that shows the extremes (perhaps wall street on one end vs a software gaming company on the other end) and litter the companies thru that spectrum and see a distribution. there will always be the extremes, but where are the main clusters? I would guess there is more (for engineering) toward the 'gamers' side than the wall street side. if you asked the same question of people who consider themselves artists, they would likely not be toward the wall street end, either.the really good non-gamer engineers? where would they be on this graph? I wonder...

author: edavid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2014, 04:01:56 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on March 16, 2014, 11:26:55 amBut often they don't want to waste their time buying clothes, and the people who do it for them pick out the good stuff. They may wear casual clothes, but they still look rich.

author: Rigby
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2014, 04:07:23 pm
content: I am well aware of the world outside of Illinois. I've lived in three countries and 10 states within the US. I've lived in Mountain View, CA, even. I worked at a place where we had a guy with a foot-tall orange mohawk and 3-inch ear gauges. He's one of the very best IT people I've ever worked with, but I didn't (nor did anyone else) guess this at first glance. Don't pretend that you wouldn't, either. He was a talented DJ, had children with 6 different women, lived out of his non-working car, and wasextremelytalented in IT.I'm not put off by tattoos. I'm put off by "FUCK THA POLICE" tattoos on the forehead, as per my example.My point is that because a "FUCK THA POLICE" tattoo on the forehead is a clear indication of past or present personality issues, that an argument that personal appearance is not an indication of a personality holds no water. Everything about personal appearance (that is controllable) is a demonstration of one's personality. All those tattoos in socal show that some portion of those people got tattoos because it was fashionable, so there's a non-zero chance that someone you're interviewing with a visible tattoo got one because they thought it would look cool.This is not rocket science. Choices one makes are a behavioral manifestation of who that person is and what they believe. A person's appearance is a choice; even if you have a uniform, you'll have a choice about how it's worn, or if you've ironed it or not, or your hairstyle, or whatever.Should you judge a person based on that? Not always. Are there things you can know about a person based only on their appearance? Absolutely.

author: Sigmoid
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2014, 04:57:26 pm
content: I personally like dressing up in a suit, but not to daily work. More like to corporate functions, important events, and similar. Wearing a suit every day is just far too impractical.I support full informal (no dress code) workplaces, as it takes away a lot of pretense and just makes things run smoother. (Though I wouldn't be caught dead in the "nerd uniform" of too-large printed tees and loose jeans.)As for the middle ground, I don't think there's anything lower than the droid outfit comprised of orphaned suit pants and a tucked-in shirt. Anyone wearing this age-old testament to mediocricity should be frowned upon by all.My take is to dress with fun and wit. If the workplace has a dress code, then hack it. You're a hacker after all.(To a job interview, wear a suit. One that fits. No, your girlfriend or the lady at Marks and Spencer knows nothing about what a suit that fits looks like. You'll have to see a tailor for that.)Quote from: VK3DRB on March 14, 2014, 10:05:52 pm

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2014, 05:56:24 pm
content: Quote from: linux-works on March 17, 2014, 03:33:55 pmHere are a few exampleshttp://blogoscoped.com/archive/2008-08-05-n63.htmlWhen you go to an interview, it's good to dress to match the company's culture. This goes both ways. Different companies, different dress code.

author: Bored@Work
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2014, 06:09:26 pm
content: Quote from: Kjelt on March 17, 2014, 10:52:21 amAdd a white lab coat. Hey, how I miss the times when wearing a white lab coat was the standard dress for engineers here. You could wear whatever you want underneath.

author: G0HZU
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2014, 06:42:53 pm
content: I've worked in an engineering environment all my working life and it's safe to say that talented engineers are generally a bit odd when compared to staff from other departments. So it's no surprise that dress code is often well down the list of priorities for most of us, myself includedMany years ago there was an engineer at my place of work who seemed to always wear the same jumper to work every day. I bet another engineer that this person would continue to wear that much loved jumper every working day for another two months.I won the bet

author: AndyC_772
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2014, 06:47:21 pm
content: It wasn't a dark shade of green, by any chance

author: 8086
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2014, 06:48:33 pm
content: Quote from: Rigby on March 17, 2014, 02:42:18 pmIf you have to go to such extremes to make your point, your point probably isn't very good.

author: G0HZU
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2014, 06:50:35 pm
content: Quote from: AndyC_772 on March 17, 2014, 06:47:21 pmI suspect that he carefully washed it quite regularly or maybe he bought a job lot of the same jumper because it appeared to stand the test of time remarkably well

author: lewis
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2014, 07:09:52 pm
content: Quote from: VK5RC on March 17, 2014, 11:15:05 amDude seriously? That's absolutely hilarious!People always take the piss out of me because I more-often-than-not wear odd socks. But my definition of 'matched' socks is those of the samethickness, not the colour.

author: grumpydoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2014, 07:30:52 pm
content: QuoteSome years ago a friend of mine hosted a visit by an illuminary of the free software movement - who's first and last initial happen to match a certain supplier of electronic components.He was staying with said friend and accompanied us on several social outings in the few days he was in the UK - extremely interesting guy in many ways but I digress.At the end of his stay I commented that he didn't seem to have changed his clothes at all during the trip. Apparently I was completely wrong. He just had several, identical, outfits.

author: N2IXK
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2014, 07:37:33 pm
content: If it's the same FOSS luminary I'm thinking of, wearing the same clothes for a few days is nothing. How about harvesting toe jam and EATING IT, while sitting on the panel at a public Q&A?

author: linux-works
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2014, 07:43:09 pm
content: Quote from: lewis on March 17, 2014, 07:09:52 pmto meet my minimum spec, the last octet of the checksum of the ascii spelling of the name of the fabric of the socks must match. color or thickness are unimportant.

author: G0HZU
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2014, 07:55:23 pm
content: I couldn't watch the vid past the point where he took his sock off.... because there were enough clues as to what he was going to do next...In terms of strange eating habits there was one engineer who didn't have any set meal times. He would arrive at work every morning carrying a large multipack of fizzy drinks cans and a large bag containing various flavours of crisps and similar savoury snacks.We all knew when he arrived at work because you would hear the first TSCHHH! from the first can being opened. Then came the noisy opening of the first crisp packet followed by loud munching. This went on for the whole day and this was effectively three meals spread over a full working day. He was a software engineer and I guess the stuff he ate helped with his concentration

author: KJDS
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2014, 08:31:56 pm
content: The oddest dress standard I've encountered was a bloke called Alan, who'd often be naked in the lab early in the morning.

author: Neilm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2014, 08:59:37 pm
content: I'm beginning to feel a bit weird - am I the only professional Engineer who happily wears a suit (or at least a shirt and tie) to work? Without it being enforced by a company dress code

author: KJDS
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2014, 09:04:09 pm
content: Quote from: Neilm on March 17, 2014, 08:59:37 pmI do too, though the suit isn't usually a posh one. i've also never felt the need to be naked at work, though in some places without AC I've resorted to shorts.

author: linux-works
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2014, 09:04:16 pm
content: who cares what you look like, etc; as long as the job gets ...uhm, done. I guess....(shamelessly borrowed from fark.com; this image comes up when their server is down for maint.)

author: marshallh
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 17, 2014, 09:43:51 pm
content: Hey that's the same phone I have (still, in 2014)

author: KJDS
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2014, 10:15:00 pm
content: Quote from: marshallh on March 17, 2014, 09:43:51 pmI'm still using a Nokia 6610

author: johnwill
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2014, 10:37:35 pm
content: I usually wear jeans, nice shoes, and a dressy collared shirt. I've never had any problems getting jobs or internships. I'm a CS major though, which might have a "less formal" reputation than some other engineering majors. I think a suit and tie is unnecessary, though you wouldn't look out of place.

author: Tinkerer
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2014, 12:25:11 am
content: Quote from: KJDS on March 17, 2014, 08:31:56 pmSo he must have been one of the head guys? I am sure many places are lenient in their code, but I cant see all but the most uncaring, perhaps, that would allow that.

author: G0HZU
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2014, 12:51:16 am
content: I doubt he had a window seat...Would it be good or bad for ESD prevention? The sticky heelstraps wouldn't work on bare feet and I guess a wriststrap would be seen as overdressing.

author: VK3DRB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2014, 11:15:42 am
content: Quote from: Rigby on March 17, 2014, 02:42:18 pmSport a few tattoos and it won't do yourself any favours trying to get a job in a professional company as an engineer. Same with men dolling themselves up with earrings. Lets' face it, you won't find the CEO of a major corporation with tatts around his neck and over their skinhead with a couple of dainty earrings dangling from his ear lobes. One company I worked with had a brilliant IT bloke - the best of the best - who had multicoloured hair (he was not a natural greenhead). He had a great attitude, aptitude and ability. He went for a job as an IT manager where he would have excelled, but didn't get it because he did not fit in the corporate image. The bloke who got the job proved to be a complete IT moron - full ofand little skill. Lets' face it, people judge by appearance.In Japan, in general you are not allowed to enter a public pool is you have got tatts. That includes women. If a shop keeper sees a tattoo on you, they will often put up their hands symbolising "I refuse to serve you. Now, get out." The reason is tattoos are associated with undesirables like the Yakuza.So if you don't look the part and conform, you do limit your options.

author: Dr. Frank
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2014, 11:23:53 am
content: In our automotive company, the normal work at the bench or in internal meetings are done in casual clothes, i.e. jeans and also Birkenstock sandals (summer w/o socks) allowed.If our engineers visit our dear customers, best suit and tie are mostly obligatory.Our suppliers come dressed the same, so it is simply a sign of politeness, to wear similar clothes, when we welcome them.Frank

author: con-f-use
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 18, 2014, 12:41:29 pm
content: Quote from: VK3DRB on March 18, 2014, 11:15:42 amYes, discrimination based on looks is a reality. But it's still discrimination and should NOT be allowed to.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2014, 12:59:53 pm
content: Quote from: con-f-use on March 18, 2014, 12:41:29 pmReminds me a story I read about Abe Lincoln. After he met with a guy he told his aid that he did not like the look of that guy. When the aid challenged him he said "by the time you get to this age, you have a lot to do with how you look".

author: don.r
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2014, 05:02:41 pm
content: Quote from: zapta on March 18, 2014, 12:59:53 pmThat's a bit rich coming from Lincoln who was no oil painting himself.I started out in jeans/khakis and a dress shirt or t-shirt on Fridays working for SMEs and big boys like Motorola. When I moved into finance, it was 3 piece suits, hand made leather shoes and an expensive watch. You really needed to look "the part" to be taken seriously in a meeting such is the shallowness of some people. Now I spend most days in my underwear. I think I have moved up in the world considerably.The most knowledgable people that I have met could have been wearing potato sacks for all I care, I never noticed what they wore. Those who were all hat and no cattle were usually dressed extravegantly and made sure everyone knew it.

author: Rigby
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2014, 05:21:18 pm
content: Quote from: don.r on March 18, 2014, 05:02:41 pmYeah, when you're in a club, you're expected to dress the part. Finance is little more than astrology & psychic prediction, to me. So, yes, a wanking club. Last one to hit the cookie eats it.

author: don.r
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2014, 05:32:30 pm
content: Quote from: Rigby on March 18, 2014, 05:21:18 pmYou are insulting astrology and psychic prediction... at least they have an interesting dress sense usually.

author: con-f-use
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 18, 2014, 07:08:24 pm
content: I remember reading a rather odd study in which they asked renown financial gurus to pick 10 stocks for them each weak over the cause of a year. They'd invest a fictional amount of money in them, then compared the total to stocks parrot had picked at random. The parrot came out with $10 less of a loss.

author: Rigby
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2014, 07:20:02 pm
content: You know you're useless when a random number generator does a better job of picking than you do. this is why they place so much importance on things that don't matter - because they have nothing else to control.

author: David_AVD
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2014, 09:23:56 pm
content: Quote from: con-f-use on March 18, 2014, 12:41:29 pmI contend that using visual cues is often very useful, along with how someone acts, etc and helps you form an overall picture. Some of this discrimination talk is bullshit by the PC brigade.If you turn up here for a job interview looking scruffy your application will be in the circular file (bin) real quick.

author: linux-works
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2014, 12:14:47 am
content: Quote from: David_AVD on March 18, 2014, 09:23:56 pmI'm sure you miss out on a lot of good people that way. but its your choice. if you prefer 'looks' over ability, hey, its your company, not mine.similarly, if I heard of a boss making such snap judgements, it works both ways: I would not want to work for a guy who makes such surface-level judgements without even taking the time to meet the PERSON.I think a lot of this is cultural. in more formal countries, people are much more hung-up on 'fitting in'. but again, its a 2-way filter. maybe all you want is middle-of-the-road employees. you won't get superstars with that attitude, though, I am quite sure of that.

author: David_AVD
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2014, 02:19:17 am
content: Quote from: linux-works on March 19, 2014, 12:14:47 amYep, it'smychoice and the PC brigade can take a hike as far as I'm concerned.

author: Rigby
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2014, 02:31:41 am
content: appearance as a statement of personality is only valid so much. after that, appearance becomes a statement of laziness and/or lack of understanding.

author: linux-works
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2014, 02:47:15 am
content: some people really don't want to be 'just like everyone else'. and being different in how they dress does help them.why is that so hard to accept? why is that met with resistance?one is more free and the other is more restrictive. shouldn't we be moving toward more freedom?if you look at social dress standards over the last centuries, the trend has been to dress 'down' and less formal. there is no push to be -more- formal.the trend is clear. get with the program or be left behind. but don't force employees to conform if they don't want to. that's really old and backward thinking.

author: David_AVD
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2014, 03:11:55 am
content: Quote from: linux-works on March 19, 2014, 02:47:15 amThat's your opinion and of course you're entitled to it. Just like I'm free to do things the way I want to.

author: Rigby
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2014, 03:20:08 am
content: ok, but I'm not sure you can see both sides.none of us have argued that personal expression is bad. it seems that you think we believe that any non-standard dress is forbidden. that is not the case.we only see physical traits that indicate the presence of some very odd personality trait.would you walk into the home of a chronic hoarder and decree it to be purely personal expression? I wouldn't. hoarders have real issues. people that keep a clean home and put up bob Marley posters are expressing themselves.people that wear clothes with rips and stains aren't even in the same sport as someone that dresses neatly, no matter what it is they're wearing.

author: David_AVD
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2014, 07:04:50 am
content: I certainly agree there's nothing wrong with personal expression, but you can't expect to do (or wear) whatever you please (without bounds) when you work for someone else.

author: linux-works
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2014, 07:41:41 am
content: without bounds? is that a 'no-true-scotsman' thing going on, there?no one ever said 'without bounds'. we are talking about clean, non ripped clothes that just happen not to be what 'the boss wears' or what the boss may WANT us to wear.

author: grumpydoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2014, 08:08:12 am
content: QuoteYou have a valid point and many talented people in both software and electronics do not feel the need to conform to conventional dress codes. It says little about their ability as an engineer.Butthere are more forces at play, especially in an interview situation. Everyone who works with others has to fit in at least a little otherwise, however talented they are, it will be difficult to get useful effort from them. We've touched on things like Asperger's before in the forum.Fitting in and wearing a suit (if that's what is expected) to an interview signals that there is recognition that occasionally one has to bend a little and see things from others' viewpoint. That's quite important for fitting socially to the office environment and understanding project requirements.

author: David_AVD
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2014, 08:09:45 am
content: It's pretty simple; if the employer requires you to wear a certain standard of clothing (uniform or otherwise), you do it. If you don't want to do that, you can ask for an exemption or find another job.

author: VK3DRB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2014, 11:57:01 am
content: Years ago when I was about 22 years old and a new engineer, a peer (Mr. Self Righteous) shouted at me several times in front of all my colleagues at an IBM meeting "Where's YOUR uniform!!" because I dare wore a different coloured suit jacket to the suit trousers one day. It was very, very embarrassing.Theoretically, I had broken IBM's strict code of conduct law by not wearing a pure suit. But I can conclude his rude and arrogant behaviour was to make him look good at the expense of someone else. After three decades he is still a drone in IBM in a dead end job, whereas most other people moved on to bigger and better things. Hopefully he is still wearing a suit.

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2014, 12:57:45 pm
content: Quote from: David_AVD on March 19, 2014, 08:09:45 amSure, youcan. But why do you choose to view employment as a strict "my way or the highway" situation? People are almost always happier when both sides compromise. Why do youwantto enforce a dress standard - what do you gain from that?Obviously it's sensible to require a certain manner of dress when someone will be interacting with customers. So I understand the "dress nicely to give a good impression" viewpoint. I just don't understand why you wouldn't hire someone whose idea of a good impression isn't congruent to yours. You can still require something different for those special occasions.Quote from: VK3DRB on March 19, 2014, 11:57:01 amWhat a horrible ass. Seems to fit in with the general culture, though, from what I've heard. What a horrible company.

author: linux-works
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2014, 03:09:32 pm
content: Quote from: grumpydoc on March 19, 2014, 08:08:12 amI agree with you. you should be flexible. while I wear very casual clothes day to day, doing work - I would dress up if something 'important' was going on. an interview does not require me to dress up but if I was going to a customer site and if -they- were into the dress-up thing, I would probably do it on short term just to play nice with them.but for daily work, it helps me a lot more to have easy clothing, no ties, no tight shoes, no long sleeve shirts. I'm a lot more productive when I'm physically comfortable.

author: jamesp15
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2014, 06:22:25 pm
content: I assume this is a difference of opinion that is largely based on what your job specifics are... wearing a suit/uniform doesnt make you a better programmer, designer, etc etc. it does reflect on your customers opinions though (which matter GREATLY in some, even most, fields)This is coming from my own view/experiences in my own "job", I do field maintenance work for a large multinational defense contractor. I love my job, I get to travel a lot (for work, with plenty of down time to explore as well), I get lots of downtime/time off between being sent overseas, etc.I am all for casual "dress as you like" at a company site/office/etcI have NO problems with having to look a certain way (dress code or "uniform") when I have to go on-site to a different company or even a different branch of my company to work there. (In fact I would expect that to be the norm.)The above is how my current employer sets their "rules".Would look very odd showing up at (and likely wouldnt be allowed access to) a jobsite (some of which are overseas) wearing sandals and a t-shirt and jeans saying im here to fix/perform-maintenance-on/etc your multimillion dollar device...They write my paychecks, so its their rules and they made them clear right up front before hiring. If I didnt/dont like I can look for employment elsewhere.

author: linux-works
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2014, 06:30:10 pm
content: I completely agree with all you said. its all too true that, even if your employer is ok with casual dress, customers may not 100% be, and so since the dollar/etc is all that matters these days, if there is any risk of not getting said dollars, they won't take it. so you are expected to dress more conservatively when going out to customer sites. hopefully that is not a high duty cycle percentage, else it negates the whole idea of being able to be relaxed during the day when you work.for many people (me, for sure) I will perform much faster and with less errors when I'm not physically stressed. if its very hot or very cold, if its very noisy, if I'm stuffed up in uncomfortable clothes, that does slow me down and make me less efficient.at jobs where I could work from home, I'll wear even more casual clothes while doing work. and I get even more done, there, than actually at the corporate office.the occasional dress-up for offsite work is fine. if it gets to be the norm, though, that is where the job definition is no longer what I would want to have.

author: jamesp15
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2014, 06:38:51 pm
content: Our "dress up" for on-site work doesnt include a suit and tieIt all about safety, function and looking "professional". You get to choose everything but the shirt which the company supplies and happens to be very comfortable (there is a warm weather dress-code and a cold weather dress code) and I dont mind wearing them all day. They will also give you the full get-up if you ask for it, but I prefer to buy my own shoes and pants and use thier shirt. At my old job on-site work involved one-size fits most coveralls that were very uncomfortable to wear for any length of time, I didnt last long there.

author: David_AVD
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2014, 08:59:23 pm
content: I supply all my guys shirts with the company name on them, but it's up to them what shorts / pants and shoes they wear. As long as their appearance is tidy and the shoes are workshop safe I don't mind. Since they all come into contact with clients at some point during the day, I think it's important they are identifiable as staff and clients get a good impression.I'm not saying that everyone in a particular company should wear the exact same clothing no matter where their job takes place. But... I don't see why an employee should be allowed to wander about a workplace (or out on-site) looking like something the cat dragged in. Hopefully there is a sensible compromise about dress standards, but ultimately it's the employer's call.So.... do I think an engineer should be wearing a suit? No.

author: Dave Turner
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2014, 11:36:34 pm
content: It's really a matter of respect.If you cannot respect your clients' expectations, at least in your first meeting with them, then don't be surprised if they go elsewhere no matter how clever you are. It is the same as using Mr, Mrs, etc as opposed to first names without being invited to do so. Respect!Once you get to know each other, then in informal meetings expected dress standards and formal modes of address may be relaxed.One employer of mine enforced a suit and tie policy. In my first week whilst recabling in-house underfloor Cat 5 installations two of my suit trousers were damaged beyond repair. I successfully claimed reparation & received an annual allowance for clothing. Sensibly shortly thereafter dress code was relaxed to smart casual which is my preferred attire anyway.When visiting clients I would dress according to their dress code. Again respect.

author: G0HZU
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2014, 11:51:02 pm
content: QuoteYep, that's about right for nearly every case.However, I too work in defence and have done for many years and I've found that some customers of ours do ignore the above guidelines. Sometimes to extreme levels!I've seen one customer/engineer turn up for a design review at our place wearing very old shoes with the soles broken away from the uppers at the front of both shoes to a depth of about three inches. They looked like flappy tramp shoesI've seen others turn up in clothes you would wear if you were doing gardening or DIY at home.Some of our foreign clients turn up in denim jeans and casual stuff you would normally wear to a pub on a Sunday.I prefer it when they do this because it's far more relaxing. Sales/marketing bods are always well turned out and well groomed but I think allowances are made for engineers... especially if they are just visiting other engineers for design reviews etc.

author: VK3DRB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 20, 2014, 09:26:30 am
content: Quote from: David_AVD on March 19, 2014, 08:59:23 pmIn Australia, someone I know said wearing leather sole shoes is a tax deduction for electronic engineers and technicians, because they help prevent the build up of static. Hence it is an expense incurred in earning his income. He said he can't help it if they happen to be Florsheim.Thinking about it, he is probably correct. Normally you can claim as a tax deduction clothing only with a company logo on it, but shoes don't have a company logo, just like steel capped work boots.Which reminds me... off topic... footy tipping or horse sweeps at work. Is it illegal if taxes on winnings are not paid to the governmet? Something the taxman won't answer because it would open a can of worms. All the losers could claim their losses. Hard to prove either way because there are no receipts. In any case, office footy or horse race tipping is probably illegal.

author: dr.diesel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 20, 2014, 10:04:22 am
content: Since somebody brought up tattoos. The absolutebestEE I ever worked with wore jeans and teddybear t-shits with suspenders, had tattoos and chain smoked. He had a near photographic memory and all of his schematics were drawn in MS-Paint, with thousands of self made libraries picts/files.I would bet this guy against anyone I've ever known. He didn't "develop", he simply drew it and it went to production, rarely did it not work as designed. On top of it all he was the calm and cool, humble and super easy to work with.

author: David_AVD
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 20, 2014, 10:08:57 am
content: Quote from: dr.diesel on March 20, 2014, 10:04:22 amSounds like a nightmare for company record keeping. You'd have to have someone else on staff to properly document his work.

author: VK3DRB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 20, 2014, 10:52:46 am
content: Quote from: dr.diesel on March 20, 2014, 10:04:22 amEven Mr Bean wouldn't be doing schematics in MS Paint. How did he do his PCB layouts? It could have been worse. He could have done all his schematics in chalk on the footpath. Or worse still, tap out schematics in Morse code using the lunchroom light switch.Incidentally, Mr Bean (Rowan Atkinson) has a degree in Electrical Engineering.

author: poorchava
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 20, 2014, 11:15:57 am
content: Where I work now there is dresscode, but it's rather lax. You have to look "neat" and that's all.No sweatsuits, hoodies, tactical pants, tanktops, shorts, flipflops, sandals and some other stuff like that. T-shirts are allowed as long as they do not have any stupid, offensive or controversial stuff on them (eg. ganja leaf). When representing company outside (no matter client or supplier) suit and tie is expected, good thing I don't have to do that shit too often.

author: KJDS
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 20, 2014, 12:40:56 pm
content: Quote from: VK3DRB on March 20, 2014, 09:26:30 amIn the UK, gambling winnings are not taxed.

author: grumpydoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 20, 2014, 02:12:09 pm
content: QuoteThey are not taxed asincome, but betting is taxed - or rather a duty is leviedhttp://www.hmrc.gov.uk/rates/gambling-duty.htm

author: Dave Turner
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 20, 2014, 07:15:50 pm
content: Whichever way you look at it it's to do with layers 8 & 9 of the OSI model; money and politics respectively.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2014, 10:14:05 am
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on March 21, 2014, 10:10:23 amSmart guy, he creates his own job security

author: AndyC_772
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2014, 10:22:45 am
content: It's a trick that only ever works once, though. I've lost count of the number of times I've made good money from redesigning or reverse engineering something which has been designed by someone else, who thought it was a good idea to keep hold of CAD data, source code or documentation.Guess who gets the regular, repeat business?

author: Bored@Work
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2014, 10:32:45 am
content: Quote from: dr.diesel on March 20, 2014, 10:04:22 amThe is called theheroapproach to engineering and especially software development. The thing is, it does not scale. Even a hero can only do so much. From some point on you need a team to do things. Yes, I know, teams don't scale linear. Everyone running a team knows.But when you have a team the worst kind of team member is the hero. As you pointed out, they don't communicate (documentation is communication). As a chain smoker people probably don't like him to be physically around, making communication even worse. Heros don't want to compromise on tools. It is their tools (MS pain(t), seriously???) or trouble. They run away / in front of the team, demotivating the team and making the team wasting time on trying to catch up.

author: schwarz-brot
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2014, 12:01:43 pm
content: Or is it just a lazy teamleader who is not able to direct the hero into usefull doings? I had to deal with such a person. He was extremely smart and had an abnormal knowledge. Best of it - he knew how to work with the physical stuff, not only playing with numbers and theorie. But if you would let run this hero without directing his work he would get caught in details, trying to bring perfection to things that only play minor roles. In the beginning it was hard to see and understand what was going on - why exactly the best person in the team would always be the slowest in delivering something. After a while it was easy to set a frame for his work which he would deliver in very short time to complete satisfaction. So with giving him little stepping stones to go along it became pretty easy to make use of his smartnes in the best way for the whole team. Of course this requiers a teamleader that is integrated into the team and knows whats going on. Not a manager type who only knows whats going on in general.Needless to say this hero was one of these smelly guys with worn down clothes and stuff. Also needless to say he was not the one to get a job on a regular basis.

author: Bored@Work
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2014, 12:25:52 pm
content: Yes, you have to separate the hero from the team and make all sorts of special allowances for him. Up to the point that you in total don't gain anything out of the whole setup. E.g. giving the hero an own office because the smell is unbearable. Or spending extra time because he doesn't show up to team meetings but needs to know changes in plan. Or tasking another team member with cleaning up behind his work. Like operating the version control system for him and merging in his changes, because he decided he doesn't need such modern crap. Or second-guessing and writing the required documentation for him. Which not only demotivates the team member tasked with the cleanup, but also sets a bad example for the rest of the team. It tells them that you can get away with murder if you play the right games.As a team leader there are limits to what amount you can and will suck someone exactly the way he like it. The typical hero demands too much sucking to make it worthwhile.

author: VK3DRB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2014, 04:03:26 am
content: Quote from: AndyC_772 on March 21, 2014, 10:22:45 amThis happens all too often, mostly because the management are often technically incompetent and they let people who have no idea develop rubbish without controls in place.

author: SArepairman
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2014, 11:05:11 pm
content: I am mother fucking miserable because I cannot stand wearing long pants.fucking draconian bullshit made to make me over heat.

author: linux-works
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2014, 11:36:31 pm
content: Quote from: VK3DRB on March 22, 2014, 04:03:26 amat the last place I was at, one 'star developer' decided to write a key bit of functionality in a language called 'groovy' (I'm not kidding; I wish I was). something java-like but not quite java. he was the only one in the company who knew (or could function) in this language and yet mgmt let him develop the app in groovy.fast forward less than 6months: he left the company and now there's no one who can support this old crap.junior 'managers' let this happen and didn't even think to tell the guy he has to stick to one of the more common and supported languages.writing in a 'fad' language is about as bad as not writing comments or keeping the source to yourself.

author: Rigby
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 23, 2014, 05:46:01 am
content: I won't argue the 'fad' language comment, but Groovy's been around a long while, now. Not long compared to C, Pascal, FORTRAN, COBOL, or BASIC, but Groovy isn't new.A lot of people don't know this, so I'll say it here: the reason different languages exist is because the different syntaxes and paradigms each lend themselves to different problems. It could very well be that Groovywasthe best language for the task. It's mgmt's fault for not tossing one or two other folks into a Groovy class, or steering the original developer away from Groovy, though, you're right about that, certainly.Of course, just about anything can be done in just about any language, but, for example, FORTRAN still compiles mathematical code that runs ~30% faster than C, purely because of the way formulas are written and handled in FORTRAN vs. how they are handled in C. FORTRAN is not really useful in a lot of other ways, so it doesn't see much use for other purposes.There are "best" languages for certain problems.

author: KJDS
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 23, 2014, 08:37:42 am
content: Quote from: Rigby on March 23, 2014, 05:46:01 amI think you're missing the point that the best language to write any code in is the one that the company design standard tells you to use so that it is maintainable.

author: linux-works
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 23, 2014, 07:27:13 pm
content: what good is an 'efficient language' if it takes devels weeks to become useful in it, patching bugs or extending features?it took me quite a while to come up to speed on this. it would not install on windows (even though it was supposed to, EASILY), it had dependancy hell (which its supposed to cure, boggle!) and there was nothing - NOTHING in the language that demanded its use here. bash would have been perfectly fine, as would java or C. python would also be acceptable. those are the common script and compiler languages that people generally will know. no one in a multi-developer position should ever pick a language that ONE person knows out of the whole eng team! do you argue for picking languages when there is only a single developer skilled in it? what kind of manager would allow that??if the language really justified itself, then there should be some on the job training allowed (our schedule? HA! not going to happen!) and a few backup devs who can act as SMEs in case the rest of us get stuck. and more than just 1 app would be written in it, too, if its a strategic language to be used.I stand by my comments: it was butt-stupid to allow that single dev to pick his favorite fad language when simple bash or python would have worked just as well and have been more readable/supportable.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 23, 2014, 07:32:43 pm
content: An emulated language running mostly on another emulated language...........Must be really fast.

author: linux-works
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 23, 2014, 07:42:59 pm
content: the app that the groovy thing was implementing was not loop based, was not doing lots of i/o or in a critical path. it was a utility that opened up a db, did some queries, printed some output and went back to an ascii menu. completely could have been done in bash and bash runs effortlessly on windows (cygwin) and unix. when I asked that dev WHY he picked groovy, he said 'it installs easy everywhere'. it did not install easily on windows and it could not even resolve all the library dependancies by itself, which is supposed to be one of its strong points.I use stackoverflow (site) quite a lot in searching 'how do I do ...?' things. one of the values of a popular language is that you'll find lots of already solved snippets of code or approaches. with lesser used languages, you won't find that wealth of online info and support. that's another reason to avoid the fad languages.

author: Rigby
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 23, 2014, 09:05:26 pm
content: Quote from: SeanB on March 23, 2014, 07:32:43 pmMaybe speed isn't the point, oh wise one. Program in assembler if you want speed. I don't think you know what "emulated" means, either.

author: Dave Turner
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 23, 2014, 11:52:17 pm
content: It is professionally irresponsible to introduce a new language/system into a corporate environment without prior agreement and an agreed test program even if it is more efficient.The interesting point is that in many respects it isn't necessarily the language that is the problem - it's the compiler!Lets face it, assembly language is potentially the most efficient, but in practice a higher level language is more productive. Therefore the conversion from one to the other (ie the compiler and to a lesser extent the linker) is truthfully the biggest problem as far as effectiveness is concerned.

author: Rigby
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 24, 2014, 03:56:30 am
content: not sure why you guys think I'm defending the groovy guy...apparently not blindly agreeing is the same as strenuous disagreement? what planet are you people from, if you think things are so black and white?

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 24, 2014, 04:01:07 am
content: Quote from: Rigby on March 24, 2014, 03:56:30 amNot sure why you think everyone is attacking you...

author: VK3DRB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 24, 2014, 11:00:17 am
content: QuoteTOTALLY AGREE! 10/10!If a company does not have a coding standard, they are not worth working for unless they allow you to develop one. I have seen many companies run by those of low engineering talent not have coding standards. One company had several so-called "engineers" who could not program themselves out of a wet paper bag let alone spell or comment their mess. No C coding standards, no logic, no common sense and no idea - the net result was 50,000 lines of ad-hoc C coded crap in 208 ad-hoc .c and .h files without sensible names, structure or functions. It was soul destroying to try to maintain this crap. What should have taken 5 minutes to debug took up to 2 days wading through the plethora of B.S.Also, it is important to have PCB design standards and STANDARD APPROVED COMPONENT LIBRARIES. One company I worked with had several ad-hoc component libraries written by different engineering teams who did not trust each other.... a huge waste of resources and time, as they had to do many board re-spins before they got it right.