Chinese Spy Chip - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: BPJC
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: November 26, 2018, 10:29:37 pm
content: Hello EEVBlog community. I a writing an article about the Chinese spy chips Bloomberg claims is in Supermicro servers. I am reaching out to ask for your help in any information regarding this SMD chip as presented by Bloomberg. There is a lot about the story that seems vague and I'm trying to get to the bottom of it. I would be grateful If you can share any information you have or can deduce based on the pic. Based on your experience could the chip is something off-the-shelf or is unique and purpose-built. Does it seem like a doctored up image and if so what are the tells. I am enclosing the image with this post.Thank you allBP

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2018, 10:38:35 pm
content: I think this (long) thread will put the Bloomberg report into a rather more balanced context for you...https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/chinese-manufacturer-puts-hardware-backdoor-onto-supermicro-server-boards/

author: Ice-Tea
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2018, 10:43:16 pm
content: Hasn't this been debunked enough? This is a 2.4GHz balun/filter :https://uk.farnell.com/c/passive-components/filters/rf-filters?pass-band-frequency=2.4ghz-to-2.5ghzI couldn't say if there's something like a chinese spy chip, but that's not it. Putting it in the RF path would be the dumbest place to put it.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2018, 10:50:00 pm
content: Yes, this is obviously a balun. If somebody actually claims that this specific specimen is the spy chip, they should be safely disregarded as an idiot.

author: Cyberdragon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2018, 04:19:30 am
content: Quote from: ataradov on November 26, 2018, 10:50:00 pmYep, I've never seen an integrated circuit in that form factor of white ceramic.

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2018, 04:38:44 am
content: Did you guys expect a soic-8 with a "I am a spy chip" marking on it?

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2018, 04:43:05 am
content: Quote from: Bud on November 27, 2018, 04:38:44 amThere is a reasonable trade-off between secrecy and effort. And doing a ceramic package for a component that is only seen in RF and wireless designs is probably a bit much.You will get better mileage from pretending to be a 555 or LM339. Al least there is a reasonable chance to see those things on the motherboard.And with CSP package, you don't have to pretend at all, just don't put any markings at all. At least it will be a piece of silicon, not a transformer.

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2018, 04:46:43 am
content: That is not true, baluns are used anywhere you need to convert balanced to unbalanced. RF is just one use case.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2018, 04:49:45 am
content: Quote from: Bud on November 27, 2018, 04:46:43 amAnd how often do you need to do this on a motherboard?You need your spy chip to not look out of place. And I would be very suspicious of a balun in the middle of a digital circuit.Actually, it is better to pretend to be a resistor network. You have plenty of pins, and will not look out of place in any circuit.

author: MrMobodies
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2018, 04:51:18 am
content: It reminds me of a documentary that I once saw on a Russian ornament called "The thing".https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Thing_(listening_device)

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2018, 05:16:05 am
content: To summarize for OP who might not have technical knowledge, the Bloomberg-pictured part is a common componentRF Balunused in wireless applications like WiFi, or possibly a WiFi chip antenna, and it would not be used on a server motherboard as these are wired, not wireless. So that raises some red flags (pun intended), as a visual inspection done in manufacturing would easily notice it.

author: daqq
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2018, 06:04:42 am
content: QuoteUnfortunately that's the same problem the technical community is having with the article. The vagueness pretty much removes the possibility of 100% debunking. Without any more details provided by the article (or other sources) it's impossible to disprove.Assuming that the picture provided is not just illustrative and is shows the exact part in question the following can be said with certainty:The part looks very much like a typical RF balun (https://uk.farnell.com/c/passive-components/filters/rf-filters?pass-band-frequency=2.4ghz-to-2.5ghz) or an EMC filter (https://product.tdk.com/info/en/catalog/datasheets/3tf_commercial_signal_mem2012sc_en.pdf).An RF balun would be out of place on a server board, an EMC filter would not look out of place on a server board.A part that would have been hidden inside of this *could* conceivably affect the system in such a way that would enable back doors or something. The specific means have been discussed in a thread in length that was linked (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/chinese-manufacturer-puts-hardware-backdoor-onto-supermicro-server-boards/). A non technical summary of one of those methods would be that the device would "sit" on the "communications channel" that could be used between a firmware memory and the board controller (an SPI bus probably) and when the proper time came, it would send out modified code, which the board controller could happily execute. Keep in mind that due to the vagueness of the original article, this is just a complete guess.That said, the logistics and infrastructure for such a hack would be utterly insane.

author: hendorog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2018, 06:21:47 am
content: Quote from: Bud on November 27, 2018, 04:46:43 amBased on thissituation they have used the precisely the correct component for the job.

author: BPJC
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: November 27, 2018, 10:45:51 am
content: Thank you so much to all who responded. Your input has been extremely valuable. I will be happy to share the piece with you all once completed.

author: GeoffreyF
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2018, 01:47:23 pm
content: The article actually could be about how journalists, lacking real knowledge of electronics or science, can write a story which really isn't a story. This case would be one example but there are many.There may well be programs, systems and devices which the Chinese use to spy on computers but "the chip" isn't part of that.