Has anyone ever seen this construction technique before? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / beginners

author: Housedad
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 02, 2017, 08:35:11 pm
content: Just Wow. I have never seen anything constructed like this. It looks intrinsically very unsafe. Has anyone ever see anything like this rat circuit construction? Maybe I just live a cloistered life. I saw it here:http://qrp-popcorn.blogspot.com/2016_11_01_archive.html

author: technogeeky
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 02, 2017, 08:43:02 pm
content: Yes. This is how things were done before the invention of circuit boards (and then printed circuit boards).It even has a name:point-to-pointcircuit assembly.It's still used today, too:This video examines this technique in this video and some of his others show it as well. I presume that this is somewhere between impractical and impossible for some high voltage circuits, but for many circuits (including RF circuits) it can be very good and very high performance.

author: Richard Crowley
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 02, 2017, 08:43:39 pm
content: It is just one type of free-form construction technique more commonly used for analog (and particularly RF) circuits.See also:Dead Bug:https://www.google.com/search?q=dead+bug+construction+style&source=lnms&tbm=ischManhattan:https://www.google.com/search?q=manhattan+electronic+construction+style&source=lnms&tbm=ischNot clear what appears to be "very unsafe"?

author: GreggD
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 02, 2017, 08:55:48 pm
content: Building on a ground plane, great technique. This is how the also great Jim Williams did quick development and so did I.

author: edpalmer42
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 02, 2017, 08:56:22 pm
content: My favorite name for this is "dead bug" style.It looks like a disaster, but it gives very good performance for RF and high speed digital circuits because everything is built on the ground plane, the leads can be very short, and capacitance to ground will be very low for leads connected through the air. I used this technique to build a circuit that squares up a 10 MHz sine wave, divides it by 10K, and then attenuates the output. I've attached a picture of the output pulse. The horizontal axis is sample intervals of 100 ps. The vertical axis is volts across a 50 ohm load.Ed

author: Farley
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 02, 2017, 08:57:05 pm
content: This is also sometimes referred to as "ugly construction." It's used for low voltage circuits, typically 12VDC or less. It works well for quick construction of RF circuits as Richard Crowley stated.Dave Richards (AA7EE) has made an art-form of this construction technique.For examplehttps://aa7ee.wordpress.com/2013/10/19/the-vk3ye-micro-40-dsb-transceiver/

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 02, 2017, 09:02:42 pm
content: Not only this is common in RF designs, there are even tools for cutting small island in the copper.Can't find commercial examples at the moment, but here is an example of homemade one -http://hackaday.com/2012/07/20/cutting-islands-into-copper-clad-pcbs-with-a-drill/

author: danadak
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 02, 2017, 09:10:58 pm
content: http://makezine.com/2012/10/08/a-fine-example-of-dead-bug-style-circuit-wiring/http://www.edn.com/Pdf/ViewPdf?contentItemId=4326598Regards, Dana.

author: Housedad
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 02, 2017, 09:12:07 pm
content: Fascinating. I did not ever realize this technique existed. I can also see that there is different levels of build quality and neatness. Thank you for the explanations! I now have something new to research and learn, and I always love to learn something new. You mentioned that this was a early method of construction. I wonder if this is part and parcel with the old wood "breadboard" building.

author: Housedad
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 02, 2017, 09:15:34 pm
content: I can only figure that I never learned about this since I was mostly steeped in digital and small power circuits when I stopped electronics 25 to 30 years ago. I never did RF or power circuits like audio amps . I just had no exposure as everything was learned from books and there was no massive library of info at your fingertips like the internet. The speed at which we CAN learn now is just amazing compared to just a very short few years ago. Well, at least I will not be as ignorant about this construction method for long.I am actually excited to learn more about this. Something New to me.

author: Richard Crowley
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 02, 2017, 09:38:10 pm
content: Several decades ago, a company called "International Eyelets" made a set of microscopic "hole-saw" like tools. They look just like the kind you use to make giant holes in wood, except that they are just a few mm in diameter. And with a replaceable drill bit in the middle. They cut very nice round pads in copper-clad board with a hole in the middle for thru-hole components or you can remove the drill to cut a blind pad. I wish someone still made them

author: senso
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 02, 2017, 09:56:28 pm
content: Search around for diamond core drill:http://www.ebay.com/itm/THK-3mm-to-12mm-Diamond-coated-rotary-core-drill-drills-bit-hole-saw-1-8-shank-/350742800136?hash=item51a9e66708:g:g6MAAMXQAx9RRZjxNot the finest thing, but you can still get those things.

author: 128er
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 02, 2017, 10:00:52 pm
content: I could not resist to post a picture of Jim Williams desk in this topic

author: testian
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 02, 2017, 10:21:04 pm
content: I have never seen something like this before. Looks like art to me.

author: KE5FX
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 02, 2017, 10:26:29 pm
content: Quote from: Housedad on March 02, 2017, 08:35:11 pmI built (almost) anentire LF-1 GHz receiver and trunk-tracking scannerthat way. It stayed online for 10 years with roughly four-nines uptime. I only took it down when the second replacement hard drive died.

author: danadak
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 02, 2017, 10:41:20 pm
content: Then there is this (download the software and take a look) -http://routaboard.com/Regards, Dana.

author: danadak
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 02, 2017, 10:44:23 pm
content: Looks like they are still in business -http://www.intl-eyelets.com/Regards, Dana.

author: Richard Crowley
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 02, 2017, 11:11:54 pm
content: Quote from: danadak on March 02, 2017, 10:44:23 pmYes, but they don't sell those cutters anymore. They only sell eyelets.It looks like they sold the product to Vector.https://www.vectorelect.com/pad-cutters.htmlAlthough it appears they only work with pre-drilled holes (like Vector board!)And they no longer have replaceable center drills.And the price has exploded to US$ 77 !

author: KE5FX
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 02, 2017, 11:51:51 pm
content: It always amazes me to see how much trouble people will go through to avoid using the quickest, easiest, and most effective analog prototyping methodology known to man.

author: edpalmer42
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 03, 2017, 12:26:28 am
content: Quote from: Richard Crowley on March 02, 2017, 11:11:54 pmNo, the pad cutter is just used to cut the traces on a Vector stripboard. It doesn't create Manhattan-style pads.Ed

author: mtdoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 03, 2017, 12:37:00 am
content: There are plenty these kind of small hole saws available from eBay and hobby stores in various sizes that can be used for cutting pads.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 03, 2017, 01:31:29 am
content: Dead Bug construction has been around forever. I could never bring myself to build something that ugly, but it does have a lot of advantages for RF circuits. If you want to prototype something radio related it's still an excellent technique due to the large and un-interupted ground plane.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 03, 2017, 02:33:52 am
content: It is also used for low leakage and precision circuits; air is an excellent insulator.

author: eugenenine
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 03, 2017, 02:37:09 am
content: Quote from: edpalmer42 on March 02, 2017, 08:56:22 pmThats still on a PCB though so its not dead bug. Dead bug's main characteristic is lack of a PCB.

author: linux-works
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 03, 2017, 02:44:43 am
content: power designs (pdi), early build style:for fun, I built a tiny oscillator air-wire style:

author: HAL-42b
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 03, 2017, 02:51:32 am
content: Quote from: testian on March 02, 2017, 10:21:04 pmDamn Straight.

author: Richard Crowley
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 03, 2017, 02:58:16 am
content: Yes, that clock is truly a work of art (and a FUNCTIONAL piece as well).There are even vendors of special little boards that make it easy to use DIP and SO integrated packages in "Manhattan style" board construction:http://www.qrpme.com/?p=product&id=MEP

author: matseng
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 03, 2017, 03:01:58 am
content: Quote from: danadak on March 02, 2017, 09:10:58 pmAlways fun to see my projects being referred to by others. :-) I need to redo this design since I stupidly enough encased it it regular epoxy glue that got all semi-transparent dark-yellow after curing for a few days. The next time I encase something I'll use the right stuff...

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 03, 2017, 04:01:57 am
content: The clock left me speechless. Very nicely done.

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 03, 2017, 04:04:55 am
content: Quote from: Housedad on March 02, 2017, 08:35:11 pmJim Williams says hello. [and looks down lovingly]

author: mtdoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 03, 2017, 04:23:09 am
content: Quote from: eugenenine on March 03, 2017, 02:37:09 amNo, it's on a piece of copper-clad not on a PCB.I always assumed "dead-bug" got its name from the similar appearance of an upside down IC with a dead bug.

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 03, 2017, 04:38:13 am
content: It's not a bug, it's a feature!

author: eugenenine
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 03, 2017, 12:27:38 pm
content: Quote from: mtdoc on March 03, 2017, 04:23:09 amyea yea, so its an un-etched PCBmy point was that dead bug won't have the copper clad. Though to confuse things more I have seen a copper clad board with all the components placed on it Manhattan style and an IC glued (upside) down with the connections to it dead bug style. But if you do a google image search for dead bug you'll find the upside down IC style, to find the components soldered on a copper clad like the original picture you'll google for Manhattan style.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 03, 2017, 12:48:52 pm
content: Which is quite different to the previously mentioned "point to point" style that used lugged components, tag strips and all manner of lugs and standoffs for the component connections.Some examples:Some more pics of classic p to p construction in this thread:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/need-help-to-find-cause-of-buzz-in-a-fender-ab763-circuit/

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 03, 2017, 02:10:29 pm
content: Ooh, Tannoy Monitor Gold crossover.

author: bibz
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 03, 2017, 02:45:43 pm
content: The art to a lot of this stuff is one of my favourite things. The order and cleanliness. It gives the components their importance not the circuit. PCB's are a great expression of the circuit. Is this dorky enough? hehe

author: cgroen
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 03, 2017, 03:20:26 pm
content: Quote from: HAL-42b on March 03, 2017, 02:51:32 amOH MY !!Have never seen this clock before,http://techno-logic-art.com/clock.htmIncredible !!!

author: obiwanjacobi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 03, 2017, 03:28:46 pm
content: There are some guitar players that still prefer the hand-wired point-to-point guitar valve amps over the modern (valve) amps that use PCBs...(Yes, valve amps are still alive and well)

author: QuantumLogic
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 03, 2017, 03:31:54 pm
content: I learned about electronics when I was young using those Radio Shack electronic kits with the springs that held the wires. It's kind of like dead bug style or open-air style with point-to-point wiring. Kind of.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 03, 2017, 04:26:52 pm
content: There is also the old Tektronix way with silver fired ceramic strips. Lavoie did practically the same thing but used metal inserts.

author: bsudbrink
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 03, 2017, 04:48:21 pm
content: I don't remember the words anymore, but someone I knew in college used to sing "Dead bug in the middle of the board" to the tune of Loudon Wainwright's "Dead skunk in the middle of the road".

author: RGB255_0_0
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 03, 2017, 07:15:36 pm
content: Paul has a video with this type of "design" uploaded earlier.

author: Bryan
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 03, 2017, 07:30:17 pm
content: Some call it point to point solderinghttps://youtu.be/VwNVsimHpBk

author: rrinker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 03, 2017, 07:41:27 pm
content: That clock is amazing and I would most definitely hang one on my wall.I wish I still had the capacitor discharge supply I built for my model railroad back when I was 12 or 13. I put it together classic point to point style, not even a plain perf board. There was a 2N3055 in a TO3 case with heatsint, and the rest of the components just soldered to it, a big cap, a 1N400x diode, and a couple of resistors.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 03, 2017, 07:46:19 pm
content: Quote from: Bryan on March 03, 2017, 07:30:17 pmThey might do but the bulk of us oldies would say they were wrong.Classic P to P is shown in the pic of the old Tek in David's reply #39And to further emphasise point to point construction technique:(not arealneat one)

author: jonovid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 03, 2017, 08:02:22 pm
content: before printed circuit boards in the 1950s their was tag strip.

author: Cubdriver
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 04, 2017, 03:56:30 am
content: Quote from: tautech on March 03, 2017, 07:46:19 pmI've always known that method as 'tag board' construction - after point to point, but before printed circuits. THIS is what I know as point to point:No, I don't know exactly what it is - it's some kind of receiver that was in among a bunch of stuff from a Ham's estate that I saved from the dumpster...-Pat

author: Cubdriver
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 04, 2017, 03:59:57 am
content: And I saw that clock a while back - it's incredible!I'd love to see the circuit and a rough construction layout guide to attempt to build one, though I can almost guarantee I'd never have the patience to finish it.-Pat

author: Housedad
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 04, 2017, 05:02:24 am
content: I found the webpage of the guy that made the clock. It took him 3 years!!!http://techno-logic-art.com/clock.htm

author: Cubdriver
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 04, 2017, 05:12:03 am
content: Quote from: Housedad on March 04, 2017, 05:02:24 amI have no doubt of that!! THAT is something that could legitimately have a click bait title that said 'An artist built a clock that will make your jaw drop' or 'this clock took three years to build and will leave you speechless' and I wouldn't be able to argue that it was wrong.-Pat

author: bibz
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 04, 2017, 01:17:24 pm
content: OK if there's some other guitar amp fans here lets get to brass tacks. The amp that made me fall in love with the construction was the Hiwatt DR-103http://cdn.tonegeek.com/wp-content/uploads/DSC_1484.jpgSaid to be tough enough to drop out of a helicopter and still run. While I doubt that (especially if the valves were in it!) it's an absolute MONSTER of an amp. Cranked to 10's it shook the hell out of my entire house and pissed off more neighbours then I realised I hadBut my favourite looking amp (guts) is my unicorn. An original Matamp. These were green amps related to the Orange amps being made down south of England, but for the northern market. As a Matt who has a totally northern english ancestry (even though, straya!) I've always wanted one.Then I seen the inside...http://www.chambonino.com/work/matamp/mat1.htmlMMMM MMMMMMMMMMMMM.

author: Sredni
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 04, 2017, 01:45:51 pm
content: Anybody has spotted the power source [of that beautiful clock]?I'm asking because I haven't seen any pictures with the clock working.(Nevertheless it's beautiful)EDITNever mind, "The unit is powered by an external 12VDC adaptor, connected on the back of the frame."Still, always off.

author: Housedad
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 04, 2017, 01:58:55 pm
content: yes, but did you see the one pic that had the reed switch? I bet that is a latched on/off point to just wave a magnet over it.

author: Cubdriver
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 04, 2017, 03:58:30 pm
content: Quote from: Housedad on March 04, 2017, 01:58:55 pmI though I read somewhere that those were to set it.-Pat

author: Prehistoricman
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 05, 2017, 04:50:02 am
content: I was once laying out a board for a little guitar pedal project I thought I'd like to try. About 5 resistors in I thought (stupidly) "there must be a easier way than this!"And now I never want to do anything it like it ever again.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2017, 08:42:39 pm
content: Quote from: Richard Crowley on March 03, 2017, 02:58:16 amI bought a few of these pads from "qrpme" and they look very nice. Decades ago, I used a similar line of products from Christiansen Brothers (if I remember correctly) that featured pressure-sensitive adhesive backs. Can you recommend a good adhesive for the qrpme products that is non-messy? I would prefer not to use CA superglue.

author: PointyOintment
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2017, 04:14:50 am
content: Quote from: TimFox on March 07, 2017, 08:42:39 pmDouble-sided tape?

author: mtdoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2017, 04:52:31 am
content: This guyuses gel super glue. His stuff is a work of art:

author: Cliff Matthews
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 11, 2017, 01:35:11 pm
content: @MTDOC - Sweet.. I like how the whole enclosure is PCB.

author: Seekonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2017, 02:21:11 pm
content: Wish I could find a picture of it. In the 60's I believe they were making small cube modules with a circuit board on the top and bottom. Components were installed axially. Never could figure out how you could get the leads of 15 components to line up with the board holes. Leads must have had all different lengths cut so they could be installed in order. And the boards had to be laid out manually, no CAD at that time.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2017, 02:37:41 pm
content: Quote from: Cliff Matthews on March 11, 2017, 01:35:11 pmI learned the hard way to make doubled sided copper clad enclosures inset on the edges for much greater mechanical strength. As an added bonus, the extensions along the edges protect anything mounted to the surface like the piston trimmers in my example from impact.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2017, 04:52:18 pm
content: Quote from: Seekonk on March 11, 2017, 02:21:11 pmYou mean cordwood construction?https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Printed_circuit_board#Cordwood_constructionAlso look on YouTube for Project Tinkertoy.