PAYPAL / EBAY FRAUD: item not received and no refund from paypal - please help! - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: ecom.gp
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2015, 06:20:05 pm
content: Hello everyone.I’ve been following the EEVblog and this forum for a very long time and now I’m joining the community to share my experience (a bad one unfortunately) and ask for your help and advices.On June 09, 2015 I won the following auction for an Agilent 33250A waveform generator:http://www.ebay.com/itm/221790550257As you can see from the auction page, the seller accepts paypal and the purchase is claimed to becovered by the ebay/paypal buyer protection program.Everyone should be able to see the BIG BOLD CLAIM: “ebay MONEY BACK GUARANTEE - Get the item you ordered or get your money back. Covers your purchase price and original shipping”.So far so good. On 11 June, 2015 I send the payment and on 16.06.2015 the seller marks the item as shipped providing the DHL tracking number (961101085832).To be clear I paid 22EUR for a DHL Paket International, which covers transport loss or damage up to 500EUR and typically delivers in my country in no more than four working days.As I know this shipping service and I’m used to see the parcels moving quickly within the DHL network you will probably understand my surprise for not seeing any progress at all in the tracking system during the following week.I don’t want to bore you with all the details so I’ll go straight to the point.I asked the seller for an explanation many and many times and all I was able to get was a request to be patient and wait more time.On July 2nd, tired of waiting, I filed a paypal dispute which was then escalated to a claim when DHL told me that they had no track of the parcel.At this point, many of you will probably guess the outcome of the deep and careful paypal investigation. here it is, Paypal decided in favor of the seller and the claim was closed without any refund. What you won’t probably guess is the explanation given for such a resolution. Well, this is what popped up in my mailbox a few hours ago:“Your seller has provided shipment tracking information in response to your claim.We used the shipping company's online tracking service and found that it confirms delivery of the merchandise.As a result, this case has been closed. We're happy we were able to help you resolve this issue.”Delivery of merchandise. Did you read that?Now please go the DHL tracking page and tell me if you see anything about delivery.http://nolp.dhl.de/nextt-online-public/set_identcodes.do?lang=en&idc=961101085832The parcel is stuck on “The shipment has been posted by the sender at the retail outlet” since June 16.Basically, it never left the DHL store.How can they have a proof of delivery?It’s clearly an error. There’s no other explanation.That’s what I thought while reading the notification, but then I decided to call paypal and they managed to surprise me even further.After waiting 10 minutes at the phone for a further investigation the answer was that they decided in favor of the seller because she was able to provide proof of shipment to my exact address.Then the conversation evolved pretty much this way:ME: I can create a shipping label in less than 5 minutes. How can you be sure that the seller really shipped the parcel? And how can you say that it’s been delivered when the tracking system shows no progress at all?PAYPAL: That’s an automatically generated mail. We have our way to check the shipment.ME: Can I have a copy of what you call proof of shipment?PAYPAL: No, that’s not possible.ME: Never mind. I paid for the item, not for the proof of shipment. As you can see, the parcel has not been received so I’m covered by the buyer protection program. Right?PAYPAL:I’m sorry. The seller provided proof of shipment so there’s nothing we can do.ME: What? And what about the protection program?PAYPAL:I’m sorry, you can keep saying that, but there’s nothing we can do. We can’t get the money back from the seller.And the conversation ended somehow…How is all this even possible? Can they really do this?Can PayPal lie about the proof of delivery and refuse to refund a frauded buyer while the whole web is filled with their claims regarding the protection program and the money-back guarantee?I have also spent a little bit of time re-reading the PayPal user agreement and I couldn’t find anything to justify such a resolution.There is however an interesting claim in section 13.4https://www.paypal.com/it/webapps/mpp/security/security-protection13.4 How much coverage do I get with PayPal Buyer Protection?a) If PayPal determines a Claim in your favor, PayPal will reimburse you the full purchase price of the item and original postage costs only.b) PayPal will not reimburse you for the postage costs you incur to return a SNAD item to the seller or another party PayPal specifies.If the seller presents evidence that they delivered the goods to your address, PayPal may find in favor of the seller even if you did not receive the goods. See section 13.10 for other protection you may be entitled to.The text in bold is the most interesting part and unless I’m horribly wrong here it seems to state that an INR (Item Not Received) claim should be closed in favor of the buyer unless the seller is able to prove that the item was delivered to the buyer’s address.Clearly, this is not the case. Paypal is lying about the proof of delivery because the parcel never left the DHL store.Any idea? What should I do now? I know this is not a huge amount of money but things like this can really destroy a hobby and your trust.I look forward to any comment or advice.In the meantime, I can’t keep myself from reading over and over again the following claim found on paypal homepage:“We've got your back. Shop with peace of mind, your eligible purchase is protected by us.If it doesn’t show up or shows up different than described, we’ll send you a refund and help wrap things up with the seller”.Yes, they really got my back!Ebay order detailsPaypal disputePaypal notificationChat session with ebayErjon 17:29:12How can I help you?flash.pc 17:30:29I'm interested in buying an item and would like to know how the protection program really works.flash.pc 17:31:09Assuming that I pay with paypal and nothing is received, how are you going to help me?Erjon 17:33:39If you pay with paypal you are covered by the protection program for 180 days since the date of purchase. Even if the seller ships the item and you don't receive it.Erjon 17:33:40The seller is responsible for delivering the item according to the conditions stated in the auction. The shipping service should be reliable, bla bla bla...flash.pc 17:34:39So I am guaranteed to receive the item. Let's say that the item is not delivered. Do you refund the whole amount?Erjon 17:36:51After you file a NRI (not received item) complaint, paypal starts an investigation to see whether or not the item has been delivered to the buyer's address? If it is not delivered, they will refund the whole payment.flash.pc 17:38:10Perfect. Now I'm much more relieved.Erjon 17:39:14Anything else I can help you with?flash.pc 17:40:13Yes, sure. I'd like to know why you refused to refund my payment for the item #221790550257 when even DHL confirmed that the parcel never left the country of origin.Erjon 17:41:55Ti chiedo gentilmente un attimo che verifico.Please hold on while I check that.Erjon 17:46:13You can open a dispute by going here and clicking there. Bla bla bla...flash.pc 17:48:34I don't need you to show me how to open a dispute. I already did that and the case has been closed in favor of the seller regardless of the user agreement and everything you told me earlier. Please note that the full story has been reported in many public places and even the transcription of this chat will be available at the following address:http://goo.gl/xlHIoWflash.pc 17:49:59Can you hand this to a supervisor?Erjon 17:51:33My answers are perfectly consistent with the rules of this platform.flash.pc 17:54:08I know that, but your behavior and decisions are not.Erjon 17:58:55The dispute wasn't opened on ebay. You filed the complaint on paypal so you should talk to them.flash.pc 18:03:22When you try to open a NRI dispute you are automatically redirected to your paypal account. You know that. I've already contacted paypal and they said that I lost the dispute because the seller was able to provide a valid proof of shipment. This is obviously in contrast with what you just told be about the protection program.System18:12:03The chat session is being wrapped up.System18:12:03The chat session has ended.System18:12:03This chat was on 08/04/2015. All times in the above transcript are in the following time zone: (GMT) Greenwich Mean Time : Dublin, Edinburgh, Lisbon, London

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2015, 06:29:01 pm
content: Why did you call Paypal? Just open an online claim stating the item hasn't arrived.

author: bitseeker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2015, 06:46:00 pm
content: And contact DHL to get their confirmation on the receipt of the package (or lack thereof).

author: ecom.gp
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2015, 07:07:56 pm
content: Quote from: bitseeker on July 30, 2015, 06:46:00 pmThey have no track of the package and told me to ask the seller for an investigation, which of course I did. No cooperation unfortunately.

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2015, 07:11:45 pm
content: I hope your PayPal account is drawn on your credit card. Raise a dispute with the credit card company against PayPal. reason...... Non delivery of product.Aurora

author: ecom.gp
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2015, 07:15:57 pm
content: Yes, I have a credit card linked to the account, but I used paypal funds for this purchase.But the point is, can they do this? Aren't they violating the user agreement and everything stated on ebay/paypal about the buyer protection?

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2015, 07:21:00 pm
content: The problem is who has authority over PayPal. You will likely hit a brick wall which is why I suggested the CC company. Sadly you appear to be stuffed unless you can find someone to listen in Paypal Customer Care.Aurora

author: firewalker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2015, 07:24:22 pm
content: Was does it mean "DHL has no track "the packet. Where is the packet shown on their tracking site? On 16/06/2015 something was delivered to DHL and a tracking number was issued. Where is the packet?It seems to me that it is DHL issue also.Alexander.

author: ecom.gp
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2015, 07:29:47 pm
content: They simply don't know.As the parcel is insured, the seller will be probably refunded by DHL, but I've already lost my money!Dealing with the courier is up to the seller. I simply can't start an investigation and "No track" is all I got from them.

author: TheAmmoniacal
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 30, 2015, 07:39:15 pm
content: The way I see it, eBay or PayPal is not to blame here, DHL is. And because you choose to use DHL, this is a problem between you and DHL. All other parties have done their part here.File a complaint with DHL, if they can't find it they must reimburse you for the value of the package (provide a receipt for the contents). Contact their customer support immediately and get in touch with the right people.DHL already fucked me over enough times that I refuse to use them ever again, but best wishes on your struggle.

author: mcinque
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 30, 2015, 07:48:51 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on July 30, 2015, 06:29:01 pmHe HAS opened an online claim, but since it was closed without results, he called PayPal directly.Quote from: bitseeker on July 30, 2015, 06:46:00 pmThis could be a good start.However, according to my clients in Italy, PayPal has decided to "cut the expenses", cutting out the "personal assistant" for those vendors who generate a lot of money, outsourcing all their call center in Romania/Eastern Europe. I don't know if they are managing in a bad way the claims, but your story it's an horrific PayPal experience.It seem like you are talking with some stupid bureaucrat that doesn't understand what you're saying."We have our methods to check the shipment" without telling exactly what is the method, it's a complete nonsense.Don't know if this lack of information entitle you to make a complaint against PayPal Italy by contacting Italian Postal Police.

author: TheAmmoniacal
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 30, 2015, 07:50:21 pm
content: If the seller has requested any insurance money, ask DHL for a confirmation of that payment so you can show PayPal that he has already been reimbursed (and thus been paid twice).

author: ecom.gp
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2015, 07:51:41 pm
content: Did you read the post? I'm not the seller! I didn't choose DHL and I'm not the one who can deal with DHL.Anyway you say that all other parties have done their part here.Can you please argument that?

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 30, 2015, 07:54:06 pm
content: Quote from: TheAmmoniacal on July 30, 2015, 07:39:15 pmCompletely wrong. Pypal/ebay are indeed to blame. According to their rules, buyer gets refund if the item isn'tdelivered. Also he cannot issue any claim to DHL. First of all claim can be made only by sender. Receiver isn't their customer. Secondly, this isn't usual DHL but Deuche post DHL, therefore it is useless to contact usual DHL express service.

author: ecom.gp
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2015, 07:56:27 pm
content: Quote from: TheAmmoniacal on July 30, 2015, 07:50:21 pmThank you. I'll try to get something from them.But after what I got from paypal I don't have much hope.After all I've been textually told that I can keep arguing over and over but nothing is going to change.

author: TheAmmoniacal
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 30, 2015, 07:59:05 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on July 30, 2015, 07:54:06 pmYou are correct if the seller sent the item with DHL, not if you paid DHL to pick it up. I just assumed the latter.. Guess I'm wrong.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 30, 2015, 08:04:38 pm
content: Quote from: TheAmmoniacal on July 30, 2015, 07:59:05 pmThis is Deuche post DHL, literally German post. Like USPS in US or Royal mail in UK. I really doubt you can arrange any collection from the abroad.

author: kmel
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2015, 08:16:22 pm
content: Quote from: firewalker on July 30, 2015, 07:24:22 pmIn Germany you can to a Mom and Pop store which is authorized by DHL and put your packet on their counter, fill out an order to transport the packet, stick the label on the packet, pay the shipping costs and you get a receipt with the tracking number.Or you can do the preparation online, pay online, get the tracking number and print out the label and stick it on the packet. Go to the store with DHL authorization and get a receipt in exchange of the packet.So ask the seller for that receipt.Then you can see which store or retail outlet has your packet right now.As seller I am anxious that my packet does arrive the buyer as I am already paid for it. Otherwise I am acting fraudulently.What does the seller say besides it should be shipped soon?

author: PeterZ
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2015, 08:20:24 pm
content: On a side note, there was a huge wave of strikes within the Deutsche Post and DHL lately in Germany. It was a total mess. I haven't received any post at all for a few weeks. One of my packages was sent, arrived somewhere at the DHL department in my town, where it took holidays for about 5 weeks. June was the month when the usual delivery time got left shifted a few bits.As others pointed out, DHL is to blame here. Tracking shows the package was posted, but got stuck somewhere. The seller should request DHL to investigate the case.

author: BillW50
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2015, 08:20:32 pm
content: I have been buying things from eBay/PayPal since before 2001, I have lost about $1000 all of this time. Although I have spent about $15,000 since then. So it isn't a huge percentage or anything. But unless you want to hire a lawyer and be out more money, I am not sure what you can do.

author: Rasz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2015, 08:30:02 pm
content: Quote from: ecom.gp on July 30, 2015, 06:20:05 pmSupport people you talk to are there not to help you, but to cover company from liability. This is how I deal with situations like this.- first and most important record a call, at the start of conversation ask them to repeat their name, this makes them think twice- at the point your conversation ended I go "ok mister Dickens Fukwitkis, I will be filing a small claim lawsuit and your name will be plastered all over it as a person responsible. Im sure your managers, and managers of your managers will love it"Used this couple of times, so far 100% success rate. For example incumbent telecom tried to extort money from me after I terminated my contract with them. They started spamming me with imaginary penalty bills. First time I called I got callcenter person agree it was a mistake and fix it temporarily. 3 months later it started again, this time support person was more combative, telling me I should pay and send them a formal letter asking for resolution and maybe refund LOL. I informed here I will be filing criminal extortion complaint to police, with her as at least a witness if not one of the perpetrators and BAM, like magic my issue was solved in 10 seconds.

author: Stray Electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2015, 08:41:13 pm
content: Quote from: firewalker on July 30, 2015, 07:24:22 pmI agree. Unfortunately most shippers (I don't know about DHL) will only deal with the person that shipped the package and not with the intended reciperant or anyone else.Given Ebay/payPal's reputation for "always siding with the buyer", I'm very surprised that they denied the OP's claim. Parts of his story don't make sense and I don't think we've heard the whole story here.I shipped an item to ItalyONE time. It sat in Italian customs literally for six months while the buyer screamed at me. The paper work was complete and correct and no reason for the delay was ever given, other that's just how things work (or don't!) in Italy.Never again!

author: jlmoon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 30, 2015, 09:03:12 pm
content: Quote from: Aurora on July 30, 2015, 07:11:45 pmThat's exactly what you need to do. The CC company will investigate and file a fraud case against the seller / pay-pal should they need to do that. It is amazing how much influence the banks have when it comes to credit cards and their proper use.

author: ecom.gp
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2015, 09:52:59 pm
content: Quote from: Stray Electron on July 30, 2015, 08:41:13 pmTell me which part doesn't make sense to you and I'll do my best to clear it.Given my situation I can understand your frustration for what happened to you, but your comment is a nonsense.This has nothing to do with customs. There is no customs involved for parcels shipped within UE.I've received many items shipped with DHL Paket International in the past and I know that they arrive in Italy in 2/3 working days (delivery on following day).But before that there are a few checkpoints in Germany. Nothing of this happened. According to the tracking system the parcel never left the retail outlet.Maybe this will help you understand:Dear -----,thank you for your request.Please accept our apologies for our late reply.According the shipment-number your parcel did not left Germany at the moment, please contact the sender to request an investigation.We apologize for any inconvenience.Do you have any further questions? Please don't hesitate to contact your customer service representative using the phone number given below.In case you answer back via e-mail please refer to your first request.Kind regards,--------KundenserviceDHL Vertriebs GmbHTelefon 0228 28609898Kontakt:www.dhl.deDHL Vertriebs GmbH; Sitz Bonn; Registergericht Bonn; HRB 19565Geschäftsführung: Dr. Andrej Busch, Norman Chmiel, Heinrich Eilers, Katja Herbst, Dr. Thomas OgilvieVorsitzender des Aufsichtsrates: Uwe Brinks

author: edavid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2015, 10:17:36 pm
content: I would try calling PayPal again. The agents seem to make up policies at random, so you might have more luck with a different person.Did you ask to speak to a supervisor?

author: mcinque
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 30, 2015, 10:47:30 pm
content: Quote from: ecom.gp on July 30, 2015, 07:56:27 pmWhat they told is irrelevant.Quote from: Rasz on July 30, 2015, 08:30:02 pmContact DHL by registered mail asking details and if possible, the italian postal police, against PayPal.Dealing directly with PayPal will not change the things, obviously.

author: _Wim_
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 31, 2015, 05:10:56 am
content: Quote from: PeterZ on July 30, 2015, 08:20:24 pmI would also not loose hope yet. I also had packages delivered in the past that travelled over six weeks. Same as in your case, tracking was not updated untill the package arrived at my doorstep.I would also tell paypall/ebay/DHL your willing to wait for another month, but they should leave your case "open" until you are certain it will not arrive, and then off course you should be correctly refunded. I very supprised they did not suggest that you wait a little longer, dissapointed even by how they handle such a complaint.

author: ecom.gp
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 31, 2015, 07:35:31 am
content: Quote from: _Wim_ on July 31, 2015, 05:10:56 amHow can I do that? The case is already closed.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 31, 2015, 07:42:07 am
content: Quote from: ecom.gp on July 31, 2015, 07:35:31 amIf 10 days have not passed since the case was closed, you could try to press that "appeal this decision" link.

author: Pinkus
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 31, 2015, 07:52:41 am
content: If I were you I would call DHL (+49-228-28609898) and check with the guy on the phonea) the tracking: they do have more information online than you can see on their systemb) let them check if the seller claimed the package as lost (though I do not know if they are allowed to give you this information, because only the shipper and DHL have a contract, not the receiver). Probably he already did claim insurance (shipping was 6 weeks ago), as then he will receive 500 Euro from DHL. Usually DHL then pays after approx. 4 weeks (I had two lost packages in the past).c) Then write this guy a registred letter that, if he does pay you back the 500 Euro he will get from the insurance, you will hire a lawyer and claim a lawsuit against him. He would be responsible for lawer costs and law suit then. You are in Italy, he is in Germany. Both EU, easy to solve. You will win the law suit without any problem. All costs has to be covered by the seller.Do not play around and beg. Go to a lawyer and let them do their work.P.S. And yes, call Paypal again. Talk to another person and explain again. Be calm and smooth and tell them paypal made a mistake.Good luck!

author: Deathwish
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 31, 2015, 07:55:47 am
content: http://lien.fmotl.com/

author: Muttley Snickers
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 31, 2015, 08:12:09 am
content: I've only had a brief look over the thread and have made mention of a particular Paypal claim on this forum before which was referred to as "The Hobby King Horror". During that claim process at one point with all the other nonsensical information that they provided I was instructed to go to the local law enforcement agency with all the documented evidence and notify them of fraudulent activity by this seller.The Police although very helpful indicated that if an offence had occured and it could be proven unfortunately it was outside of their jurisdiction because the seller was based overseas and even though their website gave indication of having a distribution network here in Australia nothing could be done, they did however conclude based on the documentation that I had provided that if the seller was local and within their jurisdiction then the matter may have been referred to the fraud squad for further review.Paypal have rules but they are not the law.Good luck, I hate hearing these stories.

author: Deathwish
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 31, 2015, 08:19:35 am
content: Are you serious Muttley ?, I would have thought that as they had a distribution net in your country that would give law enforcement a legal basis and standing to take action, they are trading through your country !. It reminds me of that film about stolen nazis paintings and that woman taking the Austrian Govt to court in America because they sold books in the 'usa.

author: Muttley Snickers
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 31, 2015, 08:34:20 am
content: It's true, I had to get a statutory declaration from the Police and forward it on to Paypal in order to continue the claim process. I was into it for seventy two bucks and lost days and half my hair because on principal alone I couldn't let it go, if I had of known from the get go how fucked up Paypal are then I would have called it quits early, this thing went on for three months.I had to comply with every instruction given by Paypal no matter how ludicrous or misinformed it was, how do you think I learnt to shake hands and beg, they wanted me to roll over and play dead in the end but they picked the wrong mongrel.Never Again.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 31, 2015, 09:16:20 am
content: Quote from: wilfred on July 31, 2015, 08:56:03 amThough total value of the items for which he received feedback since the beginning seem to be about 500 EUR.

author: ecom.gp
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 31, 2015, 09:19:15 am
content: Quote from: wilfred on July 31, 2015, 08:56:03 am

author: ecom.gp
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 31, 2015, 09:21:18 am
content: Quote from: wraper on July 31, 2015, 09:16:20 amLess than what I paid for my item...

author: hibone
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 31, 2015, 12:29:25 pm
content: What about claiming that the packet is different from what you ordered.You simply send back an empty box, and ask for a refund...

author: Macbeth
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 31, 2015, 03:19:47 pm
content: Quote from: hibone on July 31, 2015, 12:29:25 pmI think it would be wise for sellers here to put hibone on your blacklists.

author: hibone
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 31, 2015, 04:19:28 pm
content: LOLDoes that also mean that sellers here usually scam the buyers? I hope not.Either case, sorry for being pragmatic.If the seller scams you, and those who claim to protect you leave you on your own, should you just remain proudly honest, scammed and "short on cash"?

author: owiecc
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 31, 2015, 04:25:43 pm
content: In Poland, this kind of offence (art. 286 § 1 kk) is prosecuted ex officio. This means you just inform the prosecutor about the offence, you give them the proof of payment and the printouts from DHL that you did not receive the goods and its the prosecutors job to find the offender and take action against them. Normally the prosecutor will call the person to give you back your money or give you the goods you paid for and if they do not conform the prosecutor will file a lawsuit against them.The good thing about this is that you do not pay a thing to start the procedure. In your case I would call a your local prosecutor office to ask how the procedure looks in your country.

author: AndreasF
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 31, 2015, 06:37:55 pm
content: With all the postal strike action in recent months in Germany, I'm fairly convinced that nobody is trying to scam anyone here and the package is simply stuck somewhere. Two things nonetheless stand out: 1) the seller should have initiated a formal inquiry about the package with DHL and told you about it. If it turns out the package is indeed lost, he could claim back the insurance and reimburse you. 2) Paypal should not have claimed the item has been delivered when clearly it has not. It may have been "delivered" to the "collection point", but clearly not to you.

author: dadler
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 31, 2015, 09:17:36 pm
content: Quote from: hibone on July 31, 2015, 12:29:25 pmAs much as I hate to say it, this isn't a bad idea.You'll certainly get the seller's cooperation with this method.SNAD claims are always decided in the favor of the buyer. If they are saying the item was delivered to you, go through eBay and say it's not as described. It was described as a signal generator and what you received was a brick, or a book, a box-shaped void of quantum vacuum...In cases like this I think the seller really should eat the cost. There is no possible way this is the buyer's fault.

author: bitseeker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2015, 12:18:26 am
content: Quote from: ecom.gp on July 30, 2015, 09:52:59 pmThis is good confirmation. Contact PayPal again and tell them you have proof that it hasn't shipped and you want your refund. If they refuse, ask the person on the phone to escalate to his/her supervisor.If that doesn't work. Contact them again, maybe at a different time of day. Different staff respond differently. Always be professional, and don't give up. Maybe if you contact them enough, they'll actually do something about it.

author: KD0CAC John
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2015, 02:30:08 pm
content: It seems that many / most are missing a key point .The seller can start a shipment online without any package being in existence - just the online order .I had the same issue , except that I go through a series of questions before any exchange of money even begins , and this has so far either made the deal happen or gave me concern / suspicions .In this case the seller refused to use PayPal , but agreed to send package and wait for funds to be sent money order after I inspect the item .They generated the order for package to be picked up by shipper / or dropped off by seller , after a few emails , the seller claiming to have sent , the shipper [ I forget , but was either UPS or Fedex ] with online tracking number never showed that the package was received by the shipper .So then I got the seller to start the lost package search , then at this point , the shipper called it a lost in transit [ or some term close to that ] .The point being that , thieves get the system figured out and can work it - generate a tracking number WITHOUT GIVING SHIPPER A PACKAGE , just the either of the internet .

author: edavid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2015, 05:06:14 pm
content: Quote from: KD0CAC John on August 01, 2015, 02:30:08 pmNot relevant to the OP's situation, since the tracking says "The shipment has been posted by the sender at the retail outlet".

author: dadler
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 02, 2015, 04:14:16 am
content: Quote from: edavid on July 31, 2015, 10:46:30 pmYou can appeal the claim if the item "shows up" but is not as described in the auction.

author: hibone
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2015, 09:53:38 am
content: Quote from: dadler on August 02, 2015, 04:14:16 amThat's the point.To my understanding, the seller provided a proof that the package has been delivered which should be fake, given that the package has not been delivered as per the DHL report. Paypal also accepted that proof without questioning it's origin, since usually should the buyer or DHL that proofs reception, not the seller.Since both the seller and PayPal insist that the package has been received, and the proof is not fake, it means that the buyer has actually received an invisible/untouchable item sent in an invisible/untouchable package, hence I guess what has been received is different from what has been claimed in the description. Thus the buyer should take the delivery for a fact, and point out that the received package is different from what the seller claimed in the description.It may be sophistry, of course, but to me both the seller's and PayPal's behaviour is not all that honest and transparent.

author: ecom.gp
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2015, 10:00:28 am
content: Quote from: hibone on August 02, 2015, 09:53:38 amInteresting point. I may assume I got an invisible package and act accordingly...Anyway I think the seller provided just the tracking number.Then it was paypal to lie about the delivery to cover their decision.In the end of case notification they say to have used the courier tracking system to confirm the delivery, which is clearly false.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2015, 05:12:49 am
content: I'm buying quite a lot on ebay (mostly from abroad), and the few cases where I had problems I found that contacting ebay through Twitter is the most effective method of getting things resolved, probably because everyone can read it. Sometimes you need to up the pressure a bit but in the end all issues got resolved.Oh, and never ever open case for a problem with an ebay item with Paypal, always with ebay.

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2015, 05:28:38 am
content: Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on August 03, 2015, 05:12:49 amBrilliant, Social Media pressure FTW!

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2015, 08:29:21 am
content: Sad to read that this happened, hope it will turn up eventually. The problem could also be with the courier.I once had a shipment courier problem where the driver of the courier service was probably the fraudulent party.I had ordered a quite expensive crate of wine which was sent in its original crate for everyone to see what was inside.I followed the T&T when it would be delivered and staid home that day on purpose.It never showed up that day but the end of the day on the track and trace it said it was delivered on my address and someone I do not know had signed for it, luckily using another last name (again nobody I know of).I immediately called the courier firm about the mistake and they said they couldn't do anything about it since I was not the shipper (familiar tune?).So mailed the french seller/shipper and they claimed the insurance cost at the courier service (do not know the outcome) and I was re-embursed for the amount of money I paid three years earlier. Still I lost quite some money, but worse the taste of those beautifull wines.I ordered the wines en primeur three years earlier for $50 a bottle, and at the time I should have gotten them three years later they were worth >$100 a bottle.So sad that there are individuals in this world taking advantage of others. Hope they get their piece of Karma.

author: ecom.gp
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2015, 07:30:49 pm
content: Just got this from the seller. Any thoughts?

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2015, 07:38:29 pm
content: Perhaps one of our German friends know how this works with the Deutsche Post, but as far as my german goes it says that the sender should receive an automated confirmation when he hands the package over to the courierservice and that this confirmation is the official proof of sending the package. If this can not be done this receipt should be filled out ( which is clearly not the case).Unsure, but it looks like this is not the official send receipt.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2015, 07:54:32 pm
content: I agree. This form doesn't count as a proof of sending. It says that the sender should have received a printed receipt or that an employee from DHL should fill in his/her name, signature, date and post office number. Since these are empty the form doen't count as proof of sending a parcel.

author: AndreasF
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2015, 08:22:15 pm
content: Yes, this alone is not proof of sending it. He should have either received a printed receipt, or the person taking the package from him should have signed the form. The * footnote in fact states that in the case that a "machine" printed receipt is being produced, only it is proof of delivery (i.e. not this document) and should be kept until the package has been received by the recipient.You should ask him to see a copy of the printed receipt.

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2015, 10:58:04 pm
content: Slightly off topic but I will share my only experience of this kind of problem.....I bought £100 worth of new JVC belt mount battery packs from a chap who had already supplied one to me. The packs were liquidation stock sold for around £10 each instead of their normal £80 each so I was very pleased to have secured their purchase.They were sent via a courier who would pick them up from a drop off shop (newsagent).After a week with no sign of the batteries I was getting worried. The parcel was still shown as being dropped off but not arriving at the local collection depot. I checked with the seller. He was equally concerned and contacted the couriers company. They said the parcel never arrived at the local depot and was 'lost'. We chased the parcel again a few days later and were told that it was definitely lost and we needed to raise a claim. I was told that the courier just picked up a pile of boxes at the drop off point and DID NOT scan them individually as that would take too much time. Instead the courier just confirms that the list of parcels on his PDA has been collected. When the parcels arrive at the local depot they are scanned in and the true tracking begins. If the parcel is missed during the courier collection stage, it will become an orphan that has drop off paperwork but no record of arriving at the local depot. Unless the drop off point find the parcel and tell the courier about it during a later pic-up....its becomes officially lost unrecoverable.The seller could not have been a better person. He immediately refunded all of my money even though the parcel insurance was less than the full value. I received my refund the next day and advised the seller that I would help with his claim by confirming non receipt if required.Six weeks later I was surprised to be handed a rather damp box at my door. It was heavy and I was not expecting such a large parcel. After a few minutes, it clicked in my head....this was my missing battery consignment. The outside of the box was damp as if it had been in the rain and the 10 belt battery kit boxes were also damp but not wet. No corrosion was present on the batteries or the chargers that were with them.I contacted the seller that evening and told him the good news. I arranged to pay him again so that he was not out of pocket. It turned out that the courier company had not processed his claim as their courier had never taken possession of the parcel, it was still recorded as being at the drop off point !From the package paperwork, there was no evidence of the parcel getting redirected or lost & found. To this day I have no idea what had happened with the parcel. A mystery and one that proved that tracking is only as good as those doing the scanning.I can speak from experience when I say that courier companies are usually very poor at finding lost packages. The company I worked for had several losses in transit of very sensitive cargo. It was declared lost and the courier companies just took the attitude that "Sh*t Happens", even with sensitive consignments that are supposed to be carefully tracked at every point in their journey !Aurora

author: Pinkus
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 04, 2015, 08:36:18 am
content: Quote from: ecom.gp on August 03, 2015, 07:30:49 pmAs 'nctnico' says: this is not a proof of shipment. The shipper needs a specific receipt.The information the seller sent to you says (translated):"You will receive a receipt when you handover the package as the post station. Only this receipt is a valid proof of shipment".Anyway, the shipper did provide you a tracking number which shows that it had be handed over to the postal station (and is then stuck somewhere), so this shows it has been shipped.Now it is lost and the shipper has to claim the insurance. As I proposed: call the German post (DHL) and check if the shipper did already claim it.The seller (private person - it would be different if you had ordered at a company) will not be responsible for any lost package. If you would not have paid extra for the insurance, you would now get nothing. As you paid extra for the insurance, the seller has to provide you the insurance (500 Euro).This statement is what you need from the seller: "Yes I will claim a lost package and for the insurance and once I receive the insurance I will pay the full sum to you."Until you do not get this statement, you will need a lawyer and take the right legal action against the seller.First step would be to send him a registred letter (in German!) to his address to demand the insurance.

author: ecom.gp
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 04, 2015, 08:50:02 am
content: Calling DHL is not a option since I asked them by mail and they sent me a post letter saying that they deal only with the sender as their contract partner.

author: ecom.gp
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 04, 2015, 09:50:17 am
content: Just had a chat session with DHL. This is the answer:"Bitte wenden Sie sich bei Fragen zur Sendung an den Absender. Nur dieser ist Informations- und Reklamationsberechtigt. Wir können Ihnen zu dem Paket oder alles was mit dem Paket zusammenhängt, keine Auskunft erteilen."And btw they don't answer english questions!

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 04, 2015, 11:05:41 am
content: Well that does seem correct, the seller should contact the shipping company to inform what has happened.So contact the seller and tell him that he alone can make the claim of the lost package so if he please would raise the issue with the shipping company.If he refuses, sent that email to Paypal/Ebay as proof that something fishy is going on.Still as aurora states above with the strikes and the chaos you're package could well be on the bottom of a huge pile.

author: schopi68
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 04, 2015, 03:26:32 pm
content: Have you contacted ebay about this issue in the meanwhile? If the seller is not responding to your inquiries about contacting DHL you should rise this to ebay first.

author: ecom.gp
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 04, 2015, 05:18:22 pm
content: Quote from: schopi68 on August 04, 2015, 03:26:32 pmContact ebay? You must be kidding...

author: Towger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 04, 2015, 05:37:36 pm
content: Quote from: ecom.gp on August 04, 2015, 05:18:22 pmeBay is a couple of miles from where I work, I have always wondered how far one would get if they walked on the front door to complain. ..

author: ecom.gp
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 04, 2015, 05:51:59 pm
content: Quote from: Towger on August 04, 2015, 05:37:36 pmHaving an interesting chat with ebay right now... Original text and translation will come very soon. Stay tuned.

author: bktemp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 04, 2015, 06:24:13 pm
content: I don't think it s a fraud. It looks like something unusual happend that is not considered in the ebay/paypal buyer protection: DHL lost the package.According to German law a private seller is not responsible for shipping. Therefore paypal closed the case, because he can prove he shipped it.The solution is simple: Contact the seller. He should start a lost package investigation:https://www.dhl.de/de/paket/hilfe-kundenservice/ich-moechte-etwas-beauftragen/nachforschungsauftrag/paket-paeckchen-international/paket-paeckchen-international.htmlThen two things can happen:Either they will find the package and ship it to you, or they do not find it and the seller gets money for the lost item from DHL. Then you can get your money back.

author: ecom.gp
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 04, 2015, 08:17:25 pm
content: Here it is:Erjon 17:29:12Benvenuto nella Chat di eBay. Io sono Erjon, in cosa posso esserti utile gentilmente?How can I help you?flash.pc 17:30:29Salve, ho intenzione di acquistare un oggetto e vorrei sapere come funziona il programma di protezione.I'm interested in buying an item and would like to know how the protection program really works.flash.pc 17:31:09Se io pago con paypal e il venditore spedisce l'oggetto e io non ricevo nulla, cosa succede?Assuming that I pay with paypal and nothing is received, how are you going to help me?Erjon 17:33:39Effettuando il pagamento con PayPal, puoi richiedere un rimborso tramite il Programma di protezione dell'acquirente di PayPal entro 180 giorni dalla data di pagamento. Anche se il venditore lo spedisce però tu non lo ricevi.If you pay with paypal you are covered by the protection program for 180 days since the date of purchase. Even if the seller ships the item and you don't receive it.Erjon 17:33:40eBay considera responsabile il venditore il quale deve garantire che l'oggetto arrivi entro la tempistica e secondo la descrizione publicata nell' inserzione dell'oggetto. è compito del venditore di trovare un servizio di spedizione sicura ed affidabile per fare il modo che l'oggetto arrivi all'acquirente nelle condizioni ed entro le tempistiche previste.The seller is responsible for delivering the item according to the conditions stated in the auction. The shipping service should be reliable, bla bla bla...flash.pc 17:34:39Quindi sono garantito? Se non ricevo il pacco voi rimborsate l'importo corrisposto?So I am guaranteed to receive the item. Let's say that the item is not delivered. Do you refund the whole amount?Erjon 17:36:51Dopo che hai aperto la controversia per oggetto non ricevuto verrano fatte le investigazioni da PayPal se l'oggetto è stato consegnato o meno all'indirizzo di spedizione. Se non risulta consegnato ti rimborsa tutti i tuoi soldi.After you file a NRI (not received item) complaint, paypal starts an investigation to see whether or not the item has been delivered to the buyer's address? If it is not delivered, they will refund the whole payment.flash.pc 17:38:10Perfetto. Adesso sono molto più tranquillo.Perfect. Now I'm much more relieved.Erjon 17:39:14Mi fa piacere Tonino. Posso esserti utile in qualcos'altro?Anything else I can help you with?flash.pc 17:40:13Si, potrebbe spiegarmi gentilmente come mai è stato negato il rimborso per l'oggetto 221790550257 da me acquistato lo scorso Giugno e per il quale lo stesso corriere DHL ha dichiarato che il pacco non ha mai lasciato il paese d'origine?Yes, sure. I'd like to know why you refused to refund my payment for the item #221790550257 when even DHL confirmed that the parcel never left the country of origin.Erjon 17:41:55Ti chiedo gentilmente un attimo che verifico.Please hold on while I check that.Erjon 17:46:13Se non hai aperto la controversia per oggetto non ricevuto puoi ancora aprirla.Se lo hai aperto ed è stata chiusa a favore del venditore dovrai contattare PayPal su questo numero per chiedere il motivo.800 975 345Orari di apertura:Dal lunedì al venerdì dalle 8:00 alle 21:30 per qualsiasi tipo di richiestaSabato e domenica dalle 10:00 alle 19:30 per qualsiasi tipo di richiestaPer aprire una controversia direttamente tramite PayPal:1.Accedi al tuo conto PayPal all'indirizzo <a href="http://www.paypal.it.2." target="_blank">www.paypal.it.2. Clicca sulla scheda Centro risoluzioni.3. Seleziona Contesta una transazione.4.Seleziona Contestazione oggetto e clicca su Continua.5.Clicca sul pulsante Trova ID transazione e clicca su Continua.6.Seleziona Non ho ricevuto l'oggetto e clicca su Continua.7.Seleziona una categoria e inserisci un messaggio per il venditore. Clicca su Continua per aprire la controversia.You can open a dispute by going here and clicking there. Bla bla bla...flash.pc 17:48:34Non ho bisogno che mi spieghi come aprire una controversia. La controversia è stat già aperta e successivamente chiusa da ebay/paypal in violazione delle condizioni d'uso e di quanto da lei riportato poc'anzi. La informo che l'intera vicenda è stata riportata sui maggiori social networks e in svariati forum e sono in corso degli accertamenti da parte di diversi organi italiani e comunitari. Questa stessa sessione di chat sarà pubblicata al seguente indirizzo:http://goo.gl/xlHIoWe visibile giornalmente a migliaia di utenti.I don't need you to show me how to open a dispute. I already did that and the case has been closed in favor of the seller regardless of the user agreement and everything you told me earlier. Please note that the full story has been reported in many public places and even the transcription of this chat will be available at the following address:http://goo.gl/xlHIoWflash.pc 17:49:59Può passare il caso ad un supervisore? Sono in attesa di una risposta esaustiva.Can you hand this to a supervisor?Erjon 17:51:33Le risposte fornite sono in piena coerenza con le regole di questa piattaforma, puoi chiedermi pure ulteriori informazioni.My answers are perfectly consistent with the rules of this platform.flash.pc 17:54:08Sono d'accordo. Le risposte sono coerenti con le regole della piattaforma e le condizioni d'uso. Sono i comportamenti e le decisioni ad essere invece difformi. Attendo pertanto una spiegazione sul perché mi sia stato negato il rimborso.I know that, but your behavior and decisions are not.Erjon 17:58:55Dalle verifiche risulta che la controversia non è stata aperta sul sito eBay, quindi sarà stato aperto su PayPal. Dato che non posso controllare i dettagli della controversia ti invito a chiamare il numero che ti ho fornito prima per maggiori informazioni.The dispute wasn't opened on ebay. You filed the complaint on paypal so you should talk to them.flash.pc 18:03:22Quando si apre una controversia su ebay per oggetto non ricevuto si è reindirizzati automaticamente sull'account paypal. Questo lei lo sa benissimo. Ho già contattato paypal e la risposta è stata che il rimborso non è possibile perché il venditore ha fornito prova di spedizione e questo sembrerebbe sufficiente, contrariamente a quanto dichiarato da lei poc'anzi "Se non risulta consegnato ti rimborsa tutti i tuoi soldi".When you try to open a NRI dispute you are automatically redirected to your paypal account. You know that. I've already contacted paypal and they said that I lost the dispute because the seller was able to provide a valid proof of shipment. This is obviously in contrast with what you just told be about the protection program.System18:12:03The chat session is being wrapped up.System18:12:03The chat session has ended.System18:12:03This chat was on 08/04/2015. All times in the above transcript are in the following time zone: (GMT) Greenwich Mean Time : Dublin, Edinburgh, Lisbon, London

author: Rasz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 04, 2015, 09:52:21 pm
content: Quote from: ecom.gp on August 04, 2015, 08:17:25 pmI dont know why did you even bother, you talked to a person being paid to type in lines from a script, they dont even have access to ebay internal database. You dont even have a full name of that person. You just wasted time.

author: ecom.gp
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2015, 05:54:21 am
content: Quote from: Rasz on August 04, 2015, 09:52:21 pmMany people were suggesting to contact ebay so I decided to make a try even knowing how it was going to end.At least now everyone should be able to see what ebay really is and how they work.BTW they have just deleted my post on community.ebay.it (another pile of crap).

author: schopi68
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2015, 07:49:33 am
content: sorry to say that - but the way you handled this chat-session was a waste of time. It was foreseeable that ebay could not help you this way. Why did you waste the first 10 Minutes with asking about the program instead of explaning what your problem is:Your current problem is that the seller does not respond to your inquiries where you are asking for the seller to contact the shipping company.This is where ebay is able to help you - and exactly the way it worked for mee in the past too.They are able to make some pressure to the seller when the seller is refusing to communicate.As long as the shipment status is unclear and the item is still in the possession of the shipping company nobody will give you a refund.Furthermore: contact them by phone. This is less anonymous and you will get more information. You have to work *with* the people from ebay, not against them. They are not your enemies (and they are not paypal).

author: schopi68
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2015, 07:53:30 am
content: Quote from: Rasz on August 04, 2015, 09:52:21 pmIn the past i had several contacts with supporting people from ebay. They were able to access the internal database, they could even read the email history between me and the seller.

author: ecom.gp
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2015, 08:06:27 am
content: Quote from: schopi68 on August 05, 2015, 07:49:33 amSorry, but I never managed to get real help from ebay / paypal, even for other cases.If you did then you've been very lucky.My intent was to show that they are only paid to copy or read lines from a script (citing Rasz here) and persuade people to accept losses.And they keep lying about the protection program:- "If you pay with paypal you are covered by the protection program for 180 days since the date of purchase. Even if the seller ships the item and you don't receive it."- "After you file a NRI (not received item) complaint, paypal starts an investigation to see whether or not the item has been delivered to the buyer's address? If it is not delivered, they will refund the whole payment."Did you read these lines? I wouldn't say that the parcel is in possession of the shipping company as DHL explicitly told me that they don't know where the parcel is, so please tell me why I shouldn't be refunded.

author: ecom.gp
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2015, 08:45:23 am
content: Quote from: bktemp on August 04, 2015, 06:24:13 pmI agree. This is most likely not a fraud orchestrated by the seller.Ebay and Paypal are the ones committing fraud here.How can you say that a lost package is not considered by the protection program?

author: schopi68
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2015, 09:06:35 am
content: Quote from: ecom.gp on August 05, 2015, 08:06:27 amwell, maybe it is just a matter of understanding how other people will give you support and how to interact with them.At that moment where you have the supporting person against you, you have lost.Quote from: ecom.gp on August 05, 2015, 08:06:27 amPaypal is not ebay. So why should the people from ebay should be interested in not helping you to get your item or your money back? They all know that somebody who lost a lot of money this way will not buy a second time for such a price on ebay.And definitely no, they are not just reading scripts. It is normal in every business that people have to say specific parts to each customer or to specific questions. But this does not automatically mean that they switch of their brain.Quote from: ecom.gp on August 05, 2015, 08:06:27 amonce again: paypal is not ebay.Quote from: ecom.gp on August 05, 2015, 08:06:27 amDHL also told you that the sender has to start a search request to get this situation solved.That DHL don't know where the parcel is does not mean that it is lost. And they will not do any internal search for it until the sender raises a search request (lost package investigation).After the sender has started a search request it takes a while (typically a few weeks) and the sender will get a written response (letter) - in many cases saying that the item could not be found and it is lost, but sometimes it is found.This is why one of the few possible ways to go is to let the sender start this search request. As the way you already tried - asking for refund - did not work you have to try another way.

author: Deathwish
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 05, 2015, 09:09:49 am
content: Try the Mitnick approach, get socially engineering paypal and ebay staff ....Ring up paypal and tell whoever you talk too that Ebay staff have informed you that a refund WILL be made, when asked you forget the last name of the Ebay staff member apart from it was Rachel, if not that tell them that a paypal member of staff has told you they have authorised a refund after looking at the matter again as they made a mistake and apologise, again you forgot the staffs last name, let them put it on their system as a logged call and such then ring again in a day and ask how your refund is getting on , let them think they have agreed to it and let the seed run.

author: ecom.gp
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2015, 09:16:14 am
content: Quote from: schopi68 on August 05, 2015, 09:06:35 amThank you for your opinion, but no, I don't think it's my fault.It's indeed kind interesting to see how German users are generally biased towards ebay/paypal.Maybe they have a different policy for that country...I just wish you to be as lucky as you've been till now.

author: bktemp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2015, 09:16:40 am
content: Quote from: ecom.gp on August 05, 2015, 08:45:23 amIf a lost package would have been considered, they would have forced the seller to start the investigation. But they did not.Maybe the problem is the German law:If the seller can prove he shipped the item to the correct address, they can't do much, otherwise it would be against the law. He is not responsible for anything that happens during shipment.It is a bad situtation, because the seller did nothing wrong (maybe except from not starting the investigation).Have you any idea why the seller does not responds? It won't cost him anything to start the investigation. So it is rather stupid to not do it.I would contact ebay again, explain the problem and ask them to contact the seller to force him to start the investigation. Otherwise they should refund you because of the buyer protection for a not received package.

author: ecom.gp
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2015, 09:23:18 am
content: I asked the seller many times for the receipt of shipping and for an investigation.As you can see from the last mail reported on the forum, she provided only an unsigned form and the usual request to wait more time.

author: neslekkim
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2015, 09:27:00 am
content: Quote from: ecom.gp on August 05, 2015, 09:23:18 amThat is what the chinese sellers do, are you sure this item actually comes from Germany, and not an forwarder?All information points to that DHL somehow lost the package at that office, or on the way to the hub, so it should be an nobrainer for the seller to get DHL to investigate this.In Norway, if I'm not getting an package, I cannot start any investigation about that, it's the sellers responsibility, and the transport services will not give me information, only to the seller. (I guess, for obvious reasons)

author: schopi68
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2015, 09:28:04 am
content: Quote from: bktemp on August 05, 2015, 09:16:40 amIn the cases where i had a lost item they told me (phone) to get in contact with the seller to start the investigation. They did not do that by themselve.On the other side, where i has been the seller and the buyer claimed that the item was lost, nobody "automatically" told me to start the investigation. But on phone-contact they recommended me to do so.

author: ecom.gp
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2015, 09:33:03 am
content: Quote from: neslekkim on August 05, 2015, 09:27:00 amWell, she speaks German and is registered in Germany (both ebay and paypal accounts).Don't know the exact address or the DHL retail outlet since she hasn't shown the DHL receipt.

author: schopi68
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2015, 09:35:32 am
content: Quote from: ecom.gp on August 05, 2015, 09:23:18 amThis is where you have to get in contact with ebay. Maybe she is not aware that is her job to start the DHL search request (even in germany many people are not aware of this). In the latter case get in contact with ebay, tell them that you asked her to do so and she didn't do this required step and aks them to get in contact with her.BTW: if she delivered her package to a "Packstation"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Packstationshe does not have a signed form. On a packstation you can choose to get a electronic receipt per mail, printed direct from the station or none.

author: schopi68
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2015, 09:44:49 am
content: Quote from: ecom.gp on August 05, 2015, 09:16:14 amWell, i lost some money with ebay too in the past. In this case it had been the ebay global shipping program that refused to refund my money and discarded(!) the package after it had been returned to the USA by Hermes because of an adressing error.And no, i am not biased towards paypal. Here in Germany it is well known that paypal is doing everything to keep money back or not to pay in case of package loss. (And this is why i am always trying to avoid the situation where i want a refund from paypal).

author: Deathwish
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 05, 2015, 09:48:32 am
content: I often wonder how much they make in interest with your cash in their accounts.

author: et328
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2015, 09:50:29 am
content: Quote from: ecom.gp on August 05, 2015, 09:23:18 amDoes she speak English? Maybe she doesn't fully understand you. Have you send her the DHL link where to start the investigation?

author: Muttley Snickers
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 05, 2015, 10:17:37 am
content: Once you decide that a claim is warranted then the next dilemma is which path to take Ebay or Paypal and either way each avenue is fraught with danger, from my experience Paypal are a nightmare and go out of their way to hinder any due process and make the rules up as they go, although they have managed to resolve a couple of disputes on my behalf but I think it was more good luck on my part than anything else.Once you choose which path to take you cannot go back or switch so people need to pick wisely from the beginning or toss a coin, either way some gamble is involved when dealing online both with the original purchase or sale and then the intervening party.Most banks and financial institutions have some government department or body acting as a moderator or ombudsman, maybe you could find out who Ebay and Paypal are answerable to and use that body as a reference or possibly even a referee, put the wind up these mongrels.Muttley

author: ecom.gp
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2015, 09:44:28 am
content: This is all I got after waiting more than two months:"I don't know what the problem is.I called DHL yesterday and they can't give me news.They are still working on the problem finding packages and also find our packege. If i get news i tell you."I want to point out that according to the seller an investigation was opened a long time ago and we were expecting an answer by August 21.Is this normal? Any experience with DHL investigations?

author: ulix
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2015, 11:06:44 am
content: Well I never had an investigation of lost goods, but they are very lazy!Normaly you can calculate 1-2 days for a package to arrive send in germany - resceive in germany.Last month I ordered a book, they took 1 week to deliver the book!I would say this is normal! But you have to go back to them, now! (I think this is because of the holidays!?) Don't give them any space, write them 2-3 times a day!It's now 1st september.

author: mos6502
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2015, 11:57:22 am
content: Quote from: ecom.gp on August 04, 2015, 09:50:17 amThat's weird. I had a problem once, about a year back. Sent an item and it was damaged in transit. The buyer had to go to the post office (DHL and the German post are the same here), fill out a form and hand in the package. The package then went to DHL's claims department and I received it back like two months later, together with a kafkaesque letter, saying that I didn't package it well enough, because, if I had packaged it well enough, it wouldn't have broken.So, in my case, the recipient had to file the claim.Anyway, have you tried this?http://www.dhl.de/en/paket/hilfe-kundenservice/sendung.htmlChoose "Investigation international shipment" and fill in your details.Good luck.

author: ecom.gp
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2015, 12:55:12 pm
content: QuoteOnly the sender can start the investigation.I tried that way but they gave me no useful answer.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2015, 07:05:50 pm
content: I have very good reason to believe the following anecdote is true. It may have some bearing on your story.A young man was working during time off from school at a large delivery service. Although this delivery service owned and operated a large fleet of vehicles, at times the deliverers personal vehicle was used. In this case the family car. Many months after the young man returned to school, a family member found a package in the trunk (boot for those who talk that way), surmised it's source and delivered it.None of this in any way excuses PayPal's response to this situation. There is no way to tell from the information given whether the vendor is fraudulent, but Paypal is clearly not acting according to their published policy. Not unusual in my experience. If there were other services competing in their business area I think they would fail quickly.

author: ecom.gp
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2015, 07:44:50 am
content: Quote from: CatalinaWOW on September 01, 2015, 07:05:50 pmThat's exactly the point.I was actually hoping to get some feedback from people who dealt with DHL (German Posts) in the past.When you (the sender) start an investigation and file an insurance claim, DHL should give you an answer within a bounded time-frame. Is that right?In June the seller told me to wait till August 21 for a DHL answer, but then nothing happened and she now keeps saying that DHL has no news.

author: ecom.gp
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2015, 04:04:34 pm
content: This is the reason why I was asking for some feedback:"I have do all i can do. Please Call DHL and find out why they can't give me an answer.I don't know what i can do next. And I don't know why dhl can't give me an answer and tell me were the package is or telk me that it's lost."

author: Ysjoelfir
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 05, 2015, 09:52:09 pm
content: ecom, I have made some experiences with DHL and packages lost in transit in the past, when I worked at a company who did repair services for the biggest electro sellers in germany.In most cases it was like this:- Tell DHL you the recipient didn't receive the package and the tracking stays unchanged at a certain point for some days- You have to fill out a form about the package, where to ship it, when did you ship it and so on...- DHL said they will search for it- some time later (the longest was about 2 months) we got a refund for the package or a note that it was now delivered and got stuck somewhere.Your Problem is, that DHL doesn't realy think about what german law says about sending packages from private to private. It is written, that you as the buyer are the person who has the risk of the package getting lost or damaged while sending the package to you. that is, why you always send packages with an insurance against damage or lost. (your package was definitely send like this, because international packages are always insured as long as it is heavier as 2 kilos. But as far as they don't talk to the recipient, only to the sender, this is somehow stupid. The sender has the risk of losing his payd package, but he has no real way to contact DHL to regulate this... so you NEED the help of the seller, so you HAVE TO KEEP HER IN A GOOD MOOD!Maybe you could send a message in german to the seller, telling her what you feel and what your problems are, just to give her a good feeling.If youlikeyou can send her (as far as I read it is a woman?) this text after filling in the *MISSING INFORMATIONS*.Sehr geehrte Frau *INSERT NAME*,ich habe einen Bekannten gebeten, diese Nachricht auf deutsch zu übersetzen, um eventuelle Missverständnisse zu vermeiden und Ihnen zu erklären, wie meine aktuelle Situation ist und worum ich Sie bitten würde.Ich habe den Artikel am *INSERT DATE OF AUCTION ENDING* erstanden und am *INSERT DATE OF PAYMENT (or insert "selben Tag" if you payed at the same day)* bezahlt. Dies ist nun *INSERT NUMBER OF DAYS THAT PASSED SINCE PAYMENT* Tage her. Wie Sie sich sicher vorstellen können ist es für mich sehr unangenehm, das der Artikel immer noch nicht bei mir angekommen ist, denn *INSERT VALUE* Euro sind für mich viel Geld, auf das ich nicht einfach verzichten kann.Sie sagten, Sie haben bereits einen Nachforschungsantrag bei DHL erstellt, da Sie das Paket auch bereits verschickt haben, der Sendungsstatus aber keinen Hinweis auf den Verbleib des Pakets enthält.Leider haben Sie mir bis heute keinen gültigen Nachweis für den Versand geben können - das Formular, welches Sie mir eingescannt haben, ist kein gültiger Nachweis, da er zusammen mit dem Paketschein ausgedruckt wird und keine Bestätigung über die Einlieferung ist! Sie erhalten bei Übergabe an DHL einen Beleg über die Einlieferung. Ohne diesen haben Sie keinen Nachweis, denn die Trackingnummer kann jederzeit online erstellt werden, ohne das eine Sendung existiert. Daher bitte ich Sie freundlich, mir diesen Beleg zukommen zu lassen, gerne auch als Kopie.Ebenso bitte ich um eine schriftliche Bestätigung seitens DHL, das ein Nachforschungsantrag erstellt ist. Diesen muss DHL Ihnen auf Anfrage ausstellen. Ebenso ist es ihr gutes Recht, jederzeit den Status anzufragen. Um DHL druck zu machen und so schneller zu einer Lösung zu kommen bitte ich Sie, dieses Recht mehrmals wöchentlich in Anspruch zu nehmen.Da DHL selbst keinen Kontakt zum Empfänger pflegt ist es leider an Ihnen, sich um dieses Problem zu kümmern, auch wenn ich Ihnen diese Last gerne abnehmen würde.Ich bin mir sicher, das wir dieses Problem gemeinsam gelöst bekommen und hoffe weiterhin auf Ihre mithilfe.Gerne können Sie auch auf deutsch antworten, ich lasse mir Ihre Antwort dann übersetzen.Mit freundlichen Grüßen,*YOUR NAME*Translation:Dear Mrs. Name,I asked a friend to translate my message into german to ensure we don't have any misconceptions and to tell you about my situation and my requests towards you.I bought the article from you at date and payd it at day. Since then X days have passed. You sure can imagine that it is very uncomfortable for me that the article didn't arive since now, and that *value* euro is also a high value for me, that I can't give up so easily.You told me that you already started a investigation at DHL because you already send the item, but the tracking status is unclear.Sadly you didn't provided any proof of the shipment to me - the form you send me isn't a valid proof, because it is printed together with the parcel label and doesn't provide any confirmation of shipping. You get a bill at the time you deliver the package to DHL. Without that, you don't have any proof, the label with the tracking number can be printed without delivering a package to DHL. That is why I would kindly ask you for the bill, if you want as a copy.I also ask for a written confirmation from DHL, that you started the investigation. DHL has to give you that confirmation. It is also your right to ask for the state of the investigation everytime and as often as you want. To give preassure onto DHL I would ask you to use this right several times a week, so that we can get to a solution in a short time.Because DHL doesn't tell anything to the recipient, it is sadly your duty to take care of this problem, even though I would love to take care of this for you.I'm sure that we can solve this problem together and hope that you will help me with this.Don't hesitate to answer in german, if you want.Best regards,you.If you need help with translations to and from german you sure can ask me.

author: OldSchoolTechCorner
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 06, 2015, 01:59:34 am
content: Being on eBay many years, can tell you PayPal you get different results from different agents. You have to keep calling and first try different agents and then if that doesn't work, ask to speak to legal department, if no agent can help you. I found this to work even after time frame 2 month later even, as waited to see if tracking updates. Then ran in to the same problem over a year ago when opening a case with a seller from China and same thing, just tracking, but never updated. They told me pretty much the same thing that seller provided tracking and clearly told them tracking never updated, so label could have just been printed, but item could have never shipped and even if seller ship item, I can't open up a insurance claim, only the seller can. Then they told me due to 45 days pass nothing they could do. So talk to the legal department next and explain in detail, They told me that they can't at the time legally take funds out of a seller account after 45 days for a transaction. Then explain to them that it not a valid transaction as suspect item was never shipped in the first place as tracking doesn't show it been drop off, or pickup. Let just say received my money back and a extra $100 bucks wasn't expected back within 5 minutes of ending the call directly from PayPal. Mention you don't think the seller ever shipped it, as tracking never updated.

author: OldSchoolTechCorner
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 06, 2015, 02:09:59 am
content: I do suspect seller fraud as notice they only sold smaller item and notice no bigger items, then the fact they spend all the money and haven't sold other items since, or have other items listed.eBay User ID:unfalldammi (316)    Items Found:6(max: 200)Bensch mintgrüne Fleecejacke Gr.XL(no subtitle)   181839376128Completed Auction claudi59heinz 1 bids$ 16.67 (USD)  eBay.de Ended 10.58 days agoKleidung & Accessoires > Damenmode > Jacken & Mäntel  Bensch mintgrüne Fleecejacke Gr.XLIPHONE 4G G HOMEBUTTON HOME BUTTON IN WEISS TOP QUALITÄT(no subtitle)   251314991915Active BIN my_istore_berlin$ 2.95 (USD)  eBay.de Ends in 16.84 daysHandys & Kommunikation > Handy-Komponenten & -Teile  IPHONE 4G G HOMEBUTTON HOME BUTTON IN WEISS TOP QUALITÄTIPHONE 5 5G HOME BUTTON IN SCHWARZ NEU SCHNELLER VERSAND AUS BERLIN TOP QUALITÄT(no subtitle)   251370710524Active BIN my_istore_berlin$ 3.32 (USD)  eBay.de Ends in 16.44 daysHandys & Kommunikation > Handy-Komponenten & -Teile  IPHONE 5 5G HOME BUTTON IN SCHWARZ NEU SCHNELLER VERSAND AUS BERLIN TOP QUALITÄT10 Bl. Outdoor (Farb) Laser Kopierer Klebefolie klar transparent wetterfest A4(no subtitle)   230489784608Active BIN ac-concept$ 8.88 (USD)  eBay.de Ends in 15.7 daysComputer, Tablets & Netzwerk > Drucker, Scanner & Zubehör > Tinte, Toner & Papier > Druckerpapier  10 Bl. Outdoor (Farb) Laser Kopierer Klebefolie klar transparent wetterfest A4° iPad Air Touchscreen Digitizer High Q. Glas Display Scheibe Weiß Apple iPad 5Vollbestückt !!! +++Versand mit DHL+++Deutscher Händler   201353464526Active BIN herzblut24_com$ 36.34 (USD)  eBay.de Ends in 11.16 daysHandys & Kommunikation > Handy-Komponenten & -Teile  ° iPad Air Touchscreen Digitizer High Q. Glas Display Scheibe Weiß Apple iPad 5DPF Rußpartikelfilter Dieselpartikelfilter Opel Astra H Caravan 1,9l CDTi(no subtitle)   181022827463Active BIN nap-sportauspuff$ 283.45 (USD)  eBay.de Ends in 21.7 daysAuto & Motorrad Teile > Auto-Ersatz- & -Reparaturteile > Auspuffanlagen & Teile > Katalysatoren & Teile  Auto & Motorrad Teile > Auto-Ersatz- & -Reparaturteile > Abgassysteme > Partikelfilter  DPF Rußpartikelfilter Dieselpartikelfilter Opel Astra H Caravan 1,9l CDTi

author: ecom.gp
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 06, 2015, 09:21:28 am
content: Quote from: Ysjoelfir on September 05, 2015, 09:52:09 pmThank you very much Ysjoelfir.I've forwarded the message to the seller. Let's see what is her answer.What really concerns me is her last answer:"Please Call DHL and find out why they can't give me an answer.I don't know what i can do next.And I don't know why dhl can't give me an answer and tell me were the package is or telk me that it's lost."I mean, if you start an investigation for a missing package, DHL has 8 weeks to give you an answer.So either they find the package or give you a refund (assuming that the parcel was insured).According to the seller the deadline for the investigation was 21-08-2015, but when I asked her for any news she told me, verbatim:"They closed the call and i opend it again. So i get an answer next week."Of course I got no answer and now I don't know what's going on.

author: Ysjoelfir
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 06, 2015, 10:14:48 am
content: As you know, you can't communicate with DHL by yourself. If the 8 weeks are already bygone they HAVE to give her the refund. And she has to send it to you. Lets see what she answers, maybe the german text will help her.We will see.

author: ecom.gp
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 06, 2015, 05:38:06 pm
content: Quote from: Ysjoelfir on September 06, 2015, 10:14:48 amWhich means I can only hope she's not playing with me, cause I have no way to know whether she already got the refund.

author: Macbeth
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 06, 2015, 06:06:13 pm
content: What I don't understand is this so called German law that means the recipient is somehow contracted to the sellers chosen courier service but is not a party to that contract and the courier can then ignore them?I can't believe this is true. I'm pretty sure in the UK which is the bastion of common law around the world, with tort issues like this, it comes down to what was agreed between the parties. The contract for delivery is then between the sender and their chosen courier company, all the burden falls on them.I know there is some wierd civil law system and of course the disgusting sharia law systems operating in France, but I would have tort () the German system to be more anglo-saxon. I mean our Queen is a kraut!

author: TassiloH
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 06, 2015, 08:22:32 pm
content: I'm by no means a lawyer, but I understand our law like this:If a private party sells something that has to be shipped, the buyer carries the risk of damage or loss during shipment by default (this ist different for a commercial seller).The seller has the contract with DHL, so DHL will only talk to the seller/shipper.BUT: Of course one can conclude that as a side obligation from the sales contract, the seller has the duty to communicate with DHL to figure out what happened, and claim the shipping insurance, if one exists.BUT#2: If the parcel is lost and the insurance does not cover the full amount, or DHL concludes that they are not responsible to pay: Bad luck for the buyer (because it looks like seller can prove he has shipped the item; the tracking info seems to supports this, because if only the label was prepared, tracking status only would say something along the lines of "shipping info was electronically submitted to DHL").Slightly offtopic: If something goes wrong, DHL can be interesting: Just shipped an item to a buyer, few days later it comes back to me. Tracking says: Was processed at destination distribution center, then returned to distribution center for re-packaging because of damage. Label on box says: Return because of damage. Delivery guy says: "Can't be, recipient must have denied acceptance. Call hotline.". Damage was minor, box got wet and ripped at one corner, inside packaging was ok, contents undamaged, no re-packaging had taken place. Hotline says "we can't do anything, go to local post office". Lady at post office finds out: No delivery attempt was made. She didn't understand why not, and why it was returned (clearly if it could make its way back to me, it could have been delivered). She suggests to file a claim for the postage. After filing the form, she tells me: Ah, the parcel has to go with the form for inspection, and she couldn't tell me how long inspection would take. She advised me to file my complaint in writing instead, and mail it. So I decided not to file the claim there, take the parcel back, took photos, repaired the box, paid a second time for it and posted it again. No mailing address for DHL customer service though, so I emailed my complaint to the address given in the paypal payment for the DHL label. Mail came back with the advice to send it to a different service email. Did that, we'll see if someone is there to decide if they can refund the first postage...

author: ecom.gp
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 06, 2015, 08:47:22 pm
content: Quote from: TassiloH on September 06, 2015, 08:22:32 pmAre you sure of this? Can you support this statement in any way?

author: Ysjoelfir
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 06, 2015, 08:55:26 pm
content: I can proof this for TessiloH - just take a look at german BGB law, § 447 Abs. 2 BGBhttp://dejure.org/gesetze/BGB/447.htmlThere it says quite what TassiloH wrote.

author: TassiloH
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 06, 2015, 09:30:12 pm
content: Yep. In addition, BGB paragraph 474: sale of consumable goods (goods that are bought by a consumer from a commercial seller), in this case BGB 447 is only applicable if the consumer hires the shipping company and the shipping company is not named/requested by the seller.

author: Macbeth
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 06, 2015, 09:31:22 pm
content: Well if the law is passing responsibility on to the buyer, then surely the courier MUST deal with the buyer - and in fact give the seller less importance, as by law the seller has abrogated everything onto the buyer. It is clearly against all natural justice to have it any other way.I know the Germans and French love EU law and somehow the EU courts of justice etc are trying to merge Naploeonic law with good old fashioned case law in some strange fashion. Indeed there are some trying to shoehorn disgusting shariah laws in there too, and making way - like fear of religion is now a crime (Islamophobia).Perhaps this is something to raise with the unelected commission?

author: TassiloH
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 06, 2015, 09:54:27 pm
content: But the problem is: the courier does not have a contract with the recipient. At least not before the parcel is delivered. The courier can't have a contract with the recipient, because e.g. if I write your name as the recipient on a box I can't enter into a contract with DHL for you - who would know if you authorized me to enter a contract for you or not.But the seller still has the obligation to package appropriately, assist, e.g. communicate with DHL, or provide the original shipping receipt and all information necessary to file a claim with DHL (maybe also write a statement that the insurance claim is transferred to the recipient). The problem is that these side obligations are not written in law, and it does not look like a similar case was in court already (which would not be binding, but at least a guidance). And regarding justice: I think I read in a forum that in court, you get a judgement, not justice

author: Ysjoelfir
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 07, 2015, 07:04:30 am
content: Quote from: TassiloH on September 06, 2015, 09:54:27 pmThat is, sadly, a very big problem here in germany. I already considered emigration some times, but the financial problem keeps me here.

author: ecom.gp
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 07, 2015, 04:14:11 pm
content: Quick update...Thanks to Ysjoelfir I finally got the shipping receipt and a copy of the compiled investigation form.So now I know at least that the seller is in good faith.Following is the full answer to my previous message.From what I can understand, the investigation was interrupted and then started again but there's still no answer from DHL.What I don't understand from the message is what we are now waiting for.Any help with the translation would be very appreciated.----------------Dass ich aif deutsch schreiben kann ist doch wesentlich leichter für mich.Am 16.06.15 habe ivh das paket abgegeben und am 20.06.15 den Nachforschungsauftrag gestellt.Dieser wurde ende Juli eingestellt. Daruber hat mich DHL nicht informiert. Jetzt warte ivh auch schon wieder seit 1,5 wochen auf Antwort von DHL. Der Nachforschungsauftrag wurde wieder aufgenommen und sollte bis ende letzter woche geklärt sein.Das mit dem Geld kann ivh voll und ganz nach vollziehen. Denn auch für mich ist das sehr viel Geld.Ich hoffe wirklich, dass wir das sehr bald gelöst bekommen. Denn es treibt mich bald in den wahnsinn.Im Anhang ist der einlieferungsschein der filiale und der Nachforschungsauftrag.Bei dhl hänge ich gerade in der warteschleife und gebe ihnen bescheid wenn ich was weiß.Liebe Grüße----------------

author: Neganur
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 07, 2015, 04:55:45 pm
content: How can she start an investigation so soon after sending an international package?

author: Macbeth
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 07, 2015, 04:59:21 pm
content: Quote from: Neganur on September 07, 2015, 04:55:45 pmSoon? June?

author: Neganur
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 07, 2015, 05:00:44 pm
content: Also, the investigation is not signed by anyone.

author: Neganur
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 07, 2015, 05:06:30 pm
content: Quote from: Macbeth on September 07, 2015, 04:59:21 pmSent 16.06. TuesdayInvestigation 20.06. SaturdayYes. I find that too soon. The time listed for shipping items internationally is longer than that, given this was just an ordinary parcel - not express.

author: Macbeth
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 07, 2015, 05:59:01 pm
content: Quote from: Neganur on September 07, 2015, 05:06:30 pmThe scanned documents are all dated 16/06. The investigation request is too soon - but who asked the sender to investigate so soon? If the OP was that frantic to receive it then I don't blame the sender for treating him like a fruitcake/and/or scammer since.It is clear the sender did post the goods in good faith (or is part of an elaborate scam, posing as a fraulein, selling obscure test equipment instead of say, the latest iPhones, Jimmy Choos, Rolex, etc.)However, there is something gone wrong here, and it could be as simple as OP got the goods but didn't sign for them and is trying it on with ebays buyer protection, or more likely that the parcel is missing thanks to the post strike I read about earlier.

author: Ysjoelfir
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 07, 2015, 06:07:33 pm
content: Quote from: ecom.gp on September 07, 2015, 04:14:11 pmIt is realy helpful for me to write in german.I sent the package at 16.06.2015 and started the investigation at 20.06.2015.This was stopped at the end of July. I was not informed about that by DHL. Now I'm waiting already for 1,5 weeks for an answer of DHL. The investigation was taken on again and should have been ended at the end of the last week.I can totaly understand that this is much money for you, as it is also for me.I realy hope that we can solve this problem seen. It's driving me nuts.I attached the delivery bill and the formular of the investigation.At DHL I'm recently waiting at the telephone and tell you as soon as I get any new information.Best regardsAnd yes, I think it is also quite strange that the investigation was startet only four days after sending the item. That is quite uncommon... Also, the investigation looks quite odd, seems to be a printout of a website? But that is not to bad at all, because you can start the investigation online and maybe she printed it then for her papers.Btw, I can understand that this person realy apreciates writing in german, because even her german writing is somehow strange. Maybe she is dyslexic?Macbeth: The online tracking shows that the package never left germany, so I doubt that ecom got it already without signing. Sure, there are times where the DHL tracking doesn't work correct, but at least some weeks after receiving the package the missing information usualy shows up. We can all just speculate what happened here. I, personaly, hope that everything will get solved soon.

author: Neganur
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 07, 2015, 06:08:45 pm
content: I can't see your country flag McBeth (mobile client arm), but you can't start an investigation this soon. They will bluntly refuse to do it unless the shipment has been overdue* for at least two weeks."Sendung nicht angekommen (Nachforschung)Ihre Sendung ist nach Rücksprache mit dem Empfänger nicht ausgeliefert worden?Ihre Sendung hat die angegebene Laufzeit um mindestens 2 Wochen überschritten?Hinweis: Bitte beachten Sie auch die Länderinformationen für Briefe und Pakete."

author: Ysjoelfir
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 07, 2015, 06:14:51 pm
content: He is Macbeth - what country could he possibly be from? I mean, he is the king of the scottish people!

author: mos6502
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 07, 2015, 06:16:34 pm
content: Quote from: Macbeth on September 07, 2015, 05:59:01 pmBut, the tracking info clearly shows that the package was received (which means that the label was physically scanned) at a DHL shop. On top of that, she has the printed receipt. The only way to pull this off is if she had an accomplice at the DHL shop ... not very likely. So, maybe it would be a good idea to change the title of this thread.

author: Macbeth
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 07, 2015, 06:21:21 pm
content: Hmm.. perhaps 20.06 is a typo for 20.07... it's only an email, but what do I know?I find it funny that OP puts in options for blaming the sender or ebay or paypal or ebay&paypal (oh come on, they are all the same company, only recently "divorcing" for tax scam reasons or some such), and not including himself in the poll.Sorry, but the buyer protection is normally heavily biased against the seller on ebay/paypal. Which basically means that sellers who are in business can calculate that risk and add it on to the ebay premium for lost/stolen merchandise.To find an innocent fraulein being scammed like this annoys me. I have to white knight m'lady(I'm just playing devils advocate)

author: Macbeth
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 07, 2015, 06:37:36 pm
content: Quote from: Ysjoelfir on September 07, 2015, 06:07:33 pmFunnily enough I have often received packages and the online tracking stops at a certain point. I've never raised the issue or bothered checking much afterwards because I am happy to have received the goods and give the seller positive feedback. I can't blame them for the crappy logistics of the postal system. It does occur to me that someone with a more immoral bent could try and take advantage of this and try claiming against the seller using the ebay/paypal resolution "buyer is always right" bias, then spit a dummy out the pram when it doesn't work in their favour.However, I doubt anyone in our electronics community would be so low, I mean we are talking Jeremy Kyle level chav scum here, so I say it is DHL at fault.

author: donotdespisethesnake
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 07, 2015, 06:58:56 pm
content: In my experience, ebay customer service is crap, and their "buyer protection programme" is completely worthless. Paypal is just as bad. Dealing with their CS is like dealing with an unhelpful robot who is a student of Kafka.Probably the only way to get a refund is through a legal claim, in the UK there is a small claims court which is cheap to do without a laywer. Or do what other seem to do, and that is find someone on ebay to defraud. Ie. sell something and don't ship, or ship something broken, as long as you have a "proof of shipment".The strange thing is that as many sellers as buyers complain about ebay's bad service. Perhaps the theory is that the apparently unfair and random resolution of individual disputes leads to a roughly fair distribution on a long term average.I must admit the one time I accidentally got a situation to my advantage I sure as hell kept quiet. It just about made up for all the transactions that went bad, so maybe the long term average theory works.

author: ecom.gp
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 07, 2015, 07:47:55 pm
content: Quote from: MacbethIs yours an example of the glorious British humor?Humor or not, it is quite annoying to read your insinuations.QuoteYada yada yada. Try calling/mailing ebay and they'll tell you that it's up to paypal. Call paypal and you will be told to contact ebay.And by the way they have distinct user agreements and distinct rules for the protection program.Did you ever read those details? It doesn't matter. They do what they want, regardless of what's written there.My case is clear proof of that. No fun here, sorry.QuoteFor what? For having bought and paid an item on June 11 and having nothing in hand after three months?"Go to hell my dear Macbeth" is what I'm thinking right now, but I won't tell you that. Not yet. You have to do better than this.Quote from: MacbethFrantic to receive the item?I paid for this item on June 11 and after ten days I couldn't see any progress in the tracking.I often buy stuff from Germany and know quite well the transit time of parcels shipped with DHL (Paket International).The parcels start moving within the DHL network the same day they are dropped at the retail outlet and there are always three/four checkpoints before being forwarded to the foreign country. And just for reference, I always got these parcels in no more than four working days.Anyone here can clearly see that the parcel has made ABSOLUTELY NO PROGRESS since its departure from the retail outlet.There isn't even a single scan after that. Your insinuations are simply ridiculous and I keep hearing that voice in my head, but I won't tell you that, not yet.

author: ecom.gp
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 07, 2015, 07:51:59 pm
content: Quote from: mos6502 on September 07, 2015, 06:16:34 pmI agree. The seller has proven to be in good faith, but the real fraud here has been committed by ebay/paypal by refusing to refund my payment.

author: ecom.gp
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 07, 2015, 08:01:46 pm
content: Quote from: Ysjoelfir on September 07, 2015, 06:07:33 pmThank you again Ysjoelfir.

author: bktemp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 07, 2015, 08:03:56 pm
content: Quote from: ecom.gp on September 07, 2015, 07:51:59 pmNo. They have no rights to refund you, because the seller can prove she shipped the item.The actual problem are multiple things gone wrong:- DHL lost the parcel- the seller did not hassle DHL to do the investigation. After more than 2 month DHL should refund her without any further delay.- ebay/paypal refused to contact the seller and tell her to contact DHL

author: ez24
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 07, 2015, 08:55:48 pm
content: Who ever started the vote did not add "Buyer" I know the OP would not like that, but that is who I would vote for. For believing what he read on eBay. And not looking at the type of items sold by the seller.QuoteI have had the same experience. So now I buy things that will not upset me if I do not get them. If I would get upset, I do not buy it and live without it or find another source. I do not believe any of the crap they write. I know it must work for someone, just not me.. They design in 1,000 loop holes.I did not like getting burned by eBay. I wasted a whole Saturday thinking they would help meIf nothing in a few more weeks, how about this idea:Put together a document like you were submitting it to a court. Also pretend that you have 30 seconds to get you point across. This means a short paragraph. In the US we have "legal form" paper, it has numbers down the side and page numbers. In the paragraph refer to "Attachments" and include the emails and scans that you think might help. Try this out with a friend. For example if you wrote your first post you would loose any judge (too long).Then try and get a name of someone in power at DHL in Germany and send the letter to them (unfolded in a large envelope). Start the letter asking if they can help you before you send the letter to the local prosecutor. Also send a copy to the seller if you have her address. (you are not treating her). Just ask for any help DHL can furnish you (where is it?), not a money request. Also say they can send a response to the seller. Be polite and keep it short, more than a couple of lines and you will loose anyone. If you do "hooK" them, then they can look through the Attachments. Also make an index to the Attachments.This helped me in court one time. The judge was so impressed with the index he stopped and ruled in my favor, he never read any of the Attachments. Then if this does not work mail it to some legal office, stating that you believe someone at DHL might have stolen the package. Might make you feel better (include the retail price - makes it sound better to steal). And do not believe in eBay or Paypal again.My "index" was made with a spreadsheet. I had a column for the attachment number, date of document, summary of the document (Short sentence), number of pages. Then I had number tabs on the pages.So my set up was in three parts - 1. Intro paragraph to problem and statement that the details were in the attachments 2. The index - I put more detailed info here but still no more than one short sentence about each document 3. The documentsIf you can get someone to step 2, they might help you. Do not expect anyone to get to Step 3!Endless online forms are designed to discourage you or reduce the world's population.Just curious - did you ever try the Twitter idea ?Be sure to let us know if you get the Agilent 33250A and if it works. If it does it will worth all this.

author: mcinque
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 07, 2015, 08:59:51 pm
content: There is something I'm probably missing...you (ecom.gp) purchased the good on June, 11the seller shipped the package on June 16you (ecom.gp) opened a dispute on July, 2 so16 days after the shipment, since you never received the shipment#1 why the hell the sender would have opened an investigation case (or at least, he states that he did) just 4 days after the shipment date, without receiving any complaint by you?!?This is bizarre. Would you go to the police before your car gets stolen?#2 where in that attachments there is a proof of an opened investigation case? As far I can see, the first image seems only a waybill web copy; I can't read german but that is NOT an investigation document copy. And of course that is something that anyone can produce with a minimum effort.My feeling about this question is that the seller has NOT shipped using insurance as requested by you, and then the parcel was lost. Of course Now he can't request anything to DHL, and it's simply asking for time.Since YOU cannot open an investigation since YOU are not the senderSince YOU didn't receive anything but you can prove that you paidSince THE SELLER is (IMO) faking to be in good faith, and isn't proving anything (the correlation between that tracking number and youit's only that paper, that can be easily faked) and is NOT cooperating but is only asking for timeYOU MUST ACT.You MUST appeal to the italian postal police, as I stated in my first posts, to complaint for fraud against the seller, so with that document you can request directly to DHL, without seller's cooperation, the details about your shipment (they MUST cooperate).Did you contact the italian postal police?I fear that you can't do anything in this situation without using "the hard way".Do you need some legal advices in italian by PM? I would be glad to help you.

author: ecom.gp
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 07, 2015, 10:49:45 pm
content: Quote from: mcinque on September 07, 2015, 08:59:51 pmBecause there wasn't any progress in the tracking system.As I said before, DHL pakets start moving inside the network the same day.QuoteDHL International Pakets are insured up to 500EUR.QuoteThank you for the advice. That's what I'm gonna do if there is no progress by the end of the week.

author: TassiloH
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 07, 2015, 11:17:49 pm
content: Someone said the first image provided by the seller would be only a waybill copy. No, it isn't. It is this form:http://www.dhl.de/content/dam/dhlde/downloads/pdf/dhl-nachforschungsauftrag-national-092014.pdfafter filling it in and hitting the send button. It is indeed the inquiry form for lost parcels. So from this it looks like she filled it in and sent it to DHL.If the first inquiry was started only 4 days after shipping, probably DHL closed it without any look at the tracking progress. And btw., I have mixed experience with postal inquiries: They can take a long time, and be totally wrong: Once had to do a NY tax return after I had already moved back to Germany. Happily mailed it as registered letter. Online tracking never showed it as delivered, so after 4 weeks I filed for the inquiry. Another month later, the tax return had been processed, so the letter must have arrived, but the online check still didn't indicate delivery. Yet another month later, I got a letter from the postal service telling me that the letter was lostSo if the second inquiry was only started 1.5 weeks ago, I'd recommend to give DHL time. You guys didn't think German efficiency really exists - at the postal service! -, did you?

author: Flump
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2015, 01:55:58 am
content: I have nothing helpful to add but just wanted to sayyou are all good people for helpingecom.gp out with this problem

author: Deathwish
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 08, 2015, 10:35:20 am
content: I have been watching this thread for obvious reasons, Ebay have always claimed they are no more than a marketplace and they have nothing to do with sales or the items sold, this has always been their "you can not sue us in court " clause, however from what I am seeing I no longer believe that may be strictly true. I have been getting messages from a courier company that states the following.HiThe courier service is chosen by the client in this case it is eBay. We have no control over any courier group your seller decides to utilize with his contractual partner.Kind RegardsCherrelle Wright | Trackingthis would tell me that maybe you DO have a claim against Ebay ( for choosing the courier company, if the above is true ) and maybe becoming a party to the sale. It removes their impartiality.

author: ez24
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2015, 06:10:53 pm
content: Quote--> advice from someone with a deathwish

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2015, 06:16:29 pm
content: Ebay may still be covered. Here in the states using EBay's shipping service is an option, chosen by the seller. Once you have selected the option, you are stuck with their choice on that sale. I never have, but it is a mildly costly phobia on my part. They get a good discount on shipping rates.

author: TassiloH
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2015, 08:48:36 pm
content: There is no eBay shipping service for eBay Germany. The seller can offer whatever service he likes. Ebay does make it easy to use DHL or Hermes though, because you can buy a DHL label with a few mouse clicks within the eBay system, or print a Hermes label. But I doubt that this gives eBay any additional responsibility: you still pay DHL directly from your Paypal account, or for Hermes, you still have to pay cash at the drop off point. The prices are the same as on the DHL/Hermes websites. The eBay integration just saves you the re-typing of the recipient's address info.

author: ecom.gp
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2015, 12:12:38 pm
content: Quote from: bktemp on September 07, 2015, 08:03:56 pmAre you sure of that?Shipping the item is not enough according to the user agreement and the hundreds of ads seen everywhere."We protect you from checkout to delivery... If your transaction qualifies for Purchase Protection, we’ll reimburse you for the full purchase price plus any original shipping costs... If an order doesn’t arrive or it doesn’t match the description, we’ll reimburse the full cost of eligible purchases plus original shipping."This is all taken from PayPal pages.

author: Muttley Snickers
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 09, 2015, 12:42:16 pm
content: I concur that proof of shipping is not validation of receipt and have been the inverse subject of this when Paypricks explained that to receive a full refund the small portion of the order that I did receive needed to be returned to the seller, ok fine I said I will return them from whence they came which was Sydney, Australia, no you misunderstand dear sir the seller is registered in Honk Kong and when the seller confirms receipt we will refund you the full amount, anyway they came back from HK as "address unknown" and only then did I have the Austalia Post documentation to fall back on to prove that the items were shipped back to the seller at my best effort.Nearly forgot, that in addition to the Ausralia Post documentation Paythemselves wanted a signed statutory declaration from the local authorities which were Victoria Police confirming that the goods were returned, even posting here brings back some bad memories of the whole affair, it's not right.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2015, 12:49:00 pm
content: Quote from: bktemp on September 07, 2015, 08:03:56 pmIt depends on where you are. In Europe a seller is responsible for an item until it has been received by the buyer.

author: Deathwish
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 09, 2015, 01:05:29 pm
content: On the Order I made I was given only 2 choices of shipping, either economy or DHL at vastly more expense, I doubt the seller would have chosen that option from his chats to me, he kind of likes to go cheap, I know he reads this forum. I also think Ebay choose the shipping options for the seller if it is from asia or such and not a domestic/european service. Likewise I am unsure but I think there is also the domestic DSR rules here to fall back on , however those work.

author: bktemp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2015, 01:07:16 pm
content: Quote from: ecom.gp on September 09, 2015, 12:12:38 pmSee here:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/buysellwanted/paypal-ebay-fraud-item-not-received-and-no-refund-please-help!/msg748360/#msg748360I understand it is a bad situation, but you can not do much at the moment.I would set her a deadline before you start a legal claim. Maybe this helps to motivate her to put the pressure on DHL.On second thought PayPal should refund you, because of Purchase Protection. But PayPal can not take the money from the seller because she can prove she shipped the item and started an Investigation after it did not arrive.PayPal should then try to negotiate with the seller to get the result from the Investigation or get the money back when she is uncooperative.

author: Ysjoelfir
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2015, 01:09:19 pm
content: Besides all other discussions - what was the result of the telephone call with dhl she said she would be doing? any news?

author: ecom.gp
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2015, 03:50:37 pm
content: Quote from: Ysjoelfir on September 09, 2015, 01:09:19 pmNope.

author: mos6502
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2015, 04:49:17 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on September 09, 2015, 12:49:00 pmWrong. According to German law, the seller only has to prove he sent the item. The transportation risk is entirely on the buyer. Note that this applies when the seller is a private person. When the seller is a business, it's the other way round, then the seller carries the transportation risk.From a legal standpoint, you couldn't even force the seller to start an investigation or anything. Her only obligation was to send the package, and she has proof of that. There is literally nothing you can do anymore. In fact, it's quite risky to talk about fraud here, because she could sue the OP for libel, and beyond that, making a police report about fraud would be a "false accusation", which is a criminal offense in Germany (remember that the OP had proof that the package was sent, this fact alone would be enough for the judge to convict him, because he knew that no fraud had been committed).

author: ecom.gp
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2015, 05:12:07 pm
content: Quote from: mos6502 on September 09, 2015, 04:49:17 pmThen she could send an empty box and everything would be right according to the German law. What a massive pile of crap!Thanks God German law is not European law (not yet at least).The judge? Which judge? Unless proven otherwise we are in different countries, so I still have to understand who would have the jurisdiction...BTW I've already written that in my own opinion the seller is in good faith.The fraud has been committed by ebay/paypal. Said that many and many times.

author: bktemp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2015, 05:20:50 pm
content: Quote from: ecom.gp on September 09, 2015, 05:12:07 pmNo, then you would have a legal claim against her because of fraud.Maybe you could sue PayPal because they promised a refund in case the item does not arrive but refused it.

author: mos6502
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2015, 05:23:02 pm
content: Quote from: ecom.gp on September 09, 2015, 05:12:07 pmNo. You see, if you get an empty box, or a box with a brick inside it, that is proof of fraud. You can take that to the police and file a report. Even better if you have a witness present when you're opening the box.Quote from: ecom.gp on September 09, 2015, 05:12:07 pmThe problem is that "fraud" is a very specific term. You can't just say someone committed fraud without proof. They could sue you. Doesn't matter if it's the seller or eBay or PayPal. Now, they probably won't, but they could, and they would easily win. On top of that, someone in the thread suggested going to the police - bad advice. Always talk to a lawyer first.And it doesn't matter if you're in a different country, if you commit an actual crime, you will be extradited. You can even get traffic tickets from other EU countries.

author: Deathwish
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 09, 2015, 05:30:25 pm
content: Generaly the jurisdiction will reside in the country the fraud originated. if she lived in France then the German police would ask the Frog plod to deal with it or vice versa.

author: AndreasF
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2015, 06:57:28 pm
content: I agree. There is absolutely no legal claim against the seller:- she has proof of sending the package- it got lost while with the carrier (amidst huge strike action in Germany's postal service, so there will probably still be thousands of similar cases)- there is (apparently) still an investigation ongoing inside DHL to locate the packageAnd even Ebay/Paypal will probably fall back on the the last point: the package could still be located! So as long as there is an investigation ongoing, they will refuse to pay anything. Only once DHL determined that the package is indeed lost would Paypal's protection kick in. However, since the package is already insured with DHL, they would be the ones who have to pay. Only if both DHL and Paypal refuse to pay even after they concede that the package is indeed lost would you have a case against them (probably against Paypal, since you had no business with DHL).

author: ecom.gp
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 10, 2015, 07:49:10 am
content: Quote from: AndreasF on September 09, 2015, 06:57:28 pmAnd how can I know that the investigation is still ongoing?

author: klaus11
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 10, 2015, 08:08:38 am
content: Today Paypal sent me an email, this email "We saw that has a high percentage of claims" "your account may be limited, and might even refuse to consider any claim" I made six claims in seven years and all that the seller not fulfilled.This message seems to be made in standard form and believe it is a new policy of Paypal to scare the buyer not to make claims.Today I dropped in Paypal but I close the door to many shopping, but I will not tolerate blackmail or a policy of fear by paypal.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 10, 2015, 08:33:12 am
content: you're sure it is from Paypal? There are 10 phishing mails a week with such context in my spambox from "paypal"

author: AndreasF
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 10, 2015, 09:27:04 am
content: Quote from: ecom.gp on September 10, 2015, 07:49:10 amAs long as the seller doesn't give you an official response from DHL (one way or another), i.e. a copy/scan of a letter, you have to assume it is still ongoing. And those can take a very long time (I wouldn't be surprised by several months), especially now with all the overdue packages that accumulated during the strike. I expect your package to be in a pile likethis. And given that your package was sent towards the beginning of strike action it may very well be at the very bottom of one of those piles.Of course, if she has received a response from DHL and is withholding it from you (e.g. DHL agreed the item is lost and refunded her the insured value), then yes, that would be fraud. But again, you have no proof of that (at the moment). She should give you the reference number related to the investigation ("Nachforschungsauftrag"), assuming there is one.

author: klaus11
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 10, 2015, 10:45:15 am
content: Quote from: Kjelt on September 10, 2015, 08:33:12 amYes, paypal@paypal.com

author: mcinque
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 10, 2015, 11:08:18 am
content: the sender address doesn't mean anything, it can easily be spoofed.Only the headers will tell you who is the real sender.As a general rule, if in the message your FULL NAME is missing, it's not from PayPal.@ecom.gpAny news about what I suggested to do?

author: klaus11
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 10, 2015, 12:19:03 pm
content: Yes, the menssage is my full name

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 10, 2015, 03:34:44 pm
content: Over the last ten years with PayPal I have never received emails from paypal@paypal.comWhat you could do is login to your account and check Notifications link, if paupal posted anything right on your account there.The other thing to do is they have Security link on your Summary page, you go there and there is a link to report fraud and suspicious activity . You can ask them there if the email you received came from them.In general, as soon as I see "your account is limited" , the email goes straight to the spam bin.

author: klaus11
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 10, 2015, 06:32:57 pm
content: Quote from: Bud on September 10, 2015, 03:34:44 pmoh yeah, now may be the doubt and I am checking my messages and none is as paypal@paypal.com. Today I have written quite angry on Facebook to Paypal and I reply that they will review my account and feels that this bothered by the message.I hope it's a fraud I do not want to lose Paypal.But if you have sent them goodbye forever Paypal

author: ecom.gp
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 10, 2015, 06:45:58 pm
content: Just got this from the seller:QuoteI can understand that she's telling me to wait until Monday for a final answer.Is that right? I would very appreciate if anyone from Germany could translate the other parts.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 10, 2015, 06:56:08 pm
content: She says that if dhl has no answer on monday she will go to the police and make an official report because she has had enough of it.

author: Ysjoelfir
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 10, 2015, 07:04:20 pm
content: Quote from: Kjelt on September 10, 2015, 06:56:08 pmThat fits quite well, even though it is a nicer, more friendly (towards dhl) translation than the written wordsYou notice that she is annoyed by the situation and wants DHL to give final answers

author: mos6502
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 10, 2015, 07:09:40 pm
content: Quote from: Kjelt on September 10, 2015, 06:56:08 pmThe translation is correct. Unfortunately, it won't help. The police won't be doing anything, because there's no evidence of any crime. The only thing she could do is sue DHL. She'd have a very good chance of winning and she wouldn't be out any money, because in German civil law, the loser of a lawsuit has to pay all the costs. But DHL isn't stupid, they'd very likely pay as soon as they get a letter from a lawyer. The only problem with this is, a lawyer probably will tell her that she has no obligation to do anything, as she has already sent the package and has proof of it.One option for the OP would be to tell the lady to find a lawyer, and pay the lawyer's advance costs of a few hundred bucks, which he would get back in the end if DHL pays up.All in all a very messy situation.

author: ez24
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 10, 2015, 07:23:30 pm
content: I think her request will encourage them to find the package (we have a saying "the squeaky wheel gets the grease". My bet is the OP will get it by next Thur.Just curious - did the OP get the serial number before he bought it?

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 10, 2015, 07:42:34 pm
content: I once solved a problem with my unresponsive ISP by contacting my local MP ( you know those flyers they drop in you mailbox "Elect John Smith!" . Worked like a charm, they seem to have buddy- buddy connections and know who to talk to. The damn ISP ran a tv cable overhanging my driveway to the neighbor's house. I wanted them to bury the cable under the ground where it was supposed to be.

author: mcinque
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 10, 2015, 09:03:25 pm
content: ecom.gp, I ask you here since I haven't received any response: what about the advice I gave you via PM (and also in this thread)?EDIT: I can't understand AT ALL the attitude of most german sellers that reply only in their language. Ok, maybe some don't know how to write properly in english, it's legit. But what's so complicated in google translate?!

author: Neganur
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 11, 2015, 12:20:27 am
content: Quote from: mcinque on September 10, 2015, 09:03:25 pmyou assume that people know it exists.you assume it doesn't suck.many internet users are very regular people who don't know much about all kinds of things on the internet

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 11, 2015, 02:56:07 pm
content: I, for one, would rather that the reader use Google translate. That way I am sure he/she is aware of the inadequacies of machine translation. I have limited language skills in two languages other than my native tongue. Even with those limited skills I can see problems in many Google translations.If the writer has used Google translate to generate target language text, the receiver may assume they intended what was said.

author: ecom.gp
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 16, 2015, 10:41:48 am
content: And now the tracking info is gone...

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 16, 2015, 12:28:33 pm
content: Quote from: mcinque on September 10, 2015, 09:03:25 pmIf some buyer ask me something in non English (most of them are Germans BTW), I just answer in English. IMO it's better than using Google translate as it can output complete nonsense beyond any possibility to recover the original idea. Also it is better if they just write in their native language as it is, if Google translate outputs something ridiculous, at least I can make some manipulations to get a more precise translation.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 16, 2015, 12:37:20 pm
content: Quote from: CatalinaWOW on September 11, 2015, 02:56:07 pmI know 2 languages as a native speaker + English reasonably well (+ some others at beginner level). And can say that most of the times you will get completely ridiculous output from machine translation. Especially if both languages are not English.

author: Ysjoelfir
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 16, 2015, 03:03:59 pm
content: Quote from: ecom.gp on September 16, 2015, 10:41:48 amDid she tell you something new?

author: bktemp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 16, 2015, 04:39:37 pm
content: DHL seems to reuse tracking numbers after a couple of month. It is exactly 3 month since the the item was shipped, so this is most likely the normal behavior of the system to remove the tracking number.

author: Ysjoelfir
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 16, 2015, 05:58:25 pm
content: Indeed it is. And I guess at least now they should have any news regarding the investigation.

author: mcinque
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 16, 2015, 09:01:57 pm
content: ecom.gp: act immediately like we discussed by PM. Don't wait a minute more. It's clear that the seller isn't helping you otherwise you would get results.You should not believe anymore to his statements, he is only taking more time. And during this time, the tracking is gone and reused exactly how (I fear) he planned. Now any legal report is going to be a little more complicated since the tracking is not "yours" anymore (if it was really yours) .We all are trying to help you but it seems to me that you have too much confidence that this issue will be solved only by the seller.

author: Macbeth
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 16, 2015, 09:52:48 pm
content: Quote from: bktemp on September 16, 2015, 04:39:37 pmNot just DHL, the whole postal system clearly hasn't left any room for growth in tracking numbers. Don't forget that640k ought to be enough for anyone.

author: crispy_tofu
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2015, 01:21:32 am
content: Things might get a lliitttlee more complicated now...Good luck ecom.gp, hope all goes well in the end

author: rr100
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 25, 2015, 02:49:46 pm
content: I can't comment much about ebay/paypal policy (shouldn't be two different "Buyer protections"? I'm sure there's some protection both when you get something physical and pay by paypal but the transaction isn't over ebay and also when you buy via ebay but don't pay by paypal, this one might be German-Ebay only and also had some tough restrictions on the amount covered - anyway there were two different ones). If this was covered already never mind me, anyway what I wanted to say is about the seller:I find the feedback to be perfect, I mean not only that it is 100% but it has nice enough pattern: hundreds as buyer, tens as buyer, registered since 2006. Frankly it looks more or less like mine and I hope very trustworthy... It is pretty normal to sell some small stuff (if you have enough time and is worth it) and to have once a "big one". This is just what I had at some point and even if I do not accept paypal (just transfer in advance to my account which means they can only sue me if they want the money back) there was no problem to get the market price in the hundreds, for quite sensitive equipment that might or might not be in working order or genuine or even in the box...

author: ez24
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 25, 2015, 06:57:20 pm
content: ecom.gpHave you received your toy yet? Since it has been a long time, I am guessing you are playing with it?

author: TassiloH
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 27, 2015, 02:55:45 pm
content: Just as info about the DHL response times: I just had a complaint where the response time was 17 days (from contact to first and final response). And in this case nothing was lost, I just wanted a refund because the parcel was returned to me without good reason.

author: mcinque
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 27, 2015, 05:47:30 pm
content: So, ecom.gp?

author: Macbeth
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 27, 2015, 06:00:32 pm
content: Perhaps he is on a 2 week vacation... during which the parcel was attempted delivery a couple of times, and now returned to sender...

author: ez24
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 27, 2015, 06:16:09 pm
content: Quote from: Macbeth on September 27, 2015, 06:00:32 pmMy bet he is too busy cleaning it to resale.

author: mcinque
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 16, 2015, 11:52:43 am
content: So, any news?We all are waiting for an update about your order, it's been delivered or the seller has disappeared?

author: ez24
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2015, 08:01:48 pm
content: Quote from: mcinque on October 16, 2015, 11:52:43 amThe buyer disappeared! Maybe he is buried under a pile of boxes at the shipping company or his package blew up. He should have left some contact info so we could notify the police.

author: ecom.gp
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2015, 08:56:54 pm
content: Quote from: ez24 on September 27, 2015, 06:16:09 pmStill nothing. These are the last messages from the seller.2015-10-02Hallo,ich habe eben mit DHL telefoniert. Eine Rücksendung an mich konnte nicht bestätigt werden und ich habe dazu auch leider keine Informationen erhalten.Meine Unterlagen sind am 21.09.15 bei DHL eingegangen und ich soll auf weitere Informationen per Post warten. In denen werde ich Informiert werde ob das Paket zurück kommt oder es eine Erstattung gibt.Ich gebe Bescheid sobald ich weitere Informationen erhalte.Liebe grüße und ein schönes Wochenende2015-10-12Hi,Nein diese woche habe ich weder einen brief noch eine mail bekommen.Am freitag werde ich dann wohl nochmal anrufen.

author: crispy_tofu
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2015, 09:00:13 pm
content: Glad to see you're still alive, not glad to see it's not resolved yet.Maybe they're just trying to stall until you lose interest...

author: rr100
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2015, 07:22:16 am
content: It would be very funny if the parcel shows up AND DHL pays up!Actually happened to me once, I sent a return via the international Päckchen and eventually (many months later) showed up. They had a very funny canned response, something like "we don't use always the fastest ways to ship" (you don't tell, it was like 3 months later...).Well, it was only the Päckchen insurance (now it is 50 eur but back then it was 30-something) and of course I got dinged by the shop (no complains, lucky they gave me anything back after all that time) so in the end it was a wash but what I wanted to say ... it can happen!

author: ecom.gp
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2015, 01:21:11 pm
content: Here it is for all my aficionados, from DHL to the seller.And this is what Google Translate tossed out:We have received your search request to the broadcast # and apologize to you for the inconvenience generated in this context. To answer your under the operation number # stored request research at home and abroad and experience dictate. We want to already tell at this point that our cooperation partners abroad have up to 8 weeks time to complete the investigation. The influence of DHL ends with the dissemination of the request. Unfortunately, therefore, is an acceleration of the investigation is not possible. As soon as we have received a final result, we will get in touch with you. Should the process have done in the meantime, we look forward through a short message.So, it looks like they have started an investigation abroad (Italy I guess) even if they don't have any sign of the parcel leaving their country.And now, once again, I'm left alone with the 8 weeks down-counter.Who said that DHL has 8 weeks to give a final answer?

author: Rasz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2015, 05:49:51 pm
content: Quote from: ecom.gp on October 20, 2015, 01:21:11 pmthey did, because they dont give a fuuuuu..Im amazed by the level of patience you demonstrated. I would be all over Police by now.

author: vaualbus
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 11, 2021, 12:26:15 am
content: 6 years later, do they find it?

author: Rayner
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: May 11, 2021, 12:48:01 am
content: I have found that eBay is the one who should be refunding your money.

author: Trader
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 17, 2021, 07:51:14 pm
content: Yeah, I wonder what happened. Usually, you should exhaust all the options thru the Seller and DHL, after that eBay, after PayPal, and after your Credit Card, and after you also can sue them.

author: gnif
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 23, 2021, 04:55:04 am
content: I had a similar thing happen when shipping an item from Canada to Australia, the item was shipped with a tracking number but it never progressed past the initial lodgement. I tried to get the seller to check with the postal service to find out what's going on and they never did anything, the whole thing seemed dodgy to me.Anyway, I escalated it to a claim with eBay and a week later they refunded me the total amount, and I got a letter from eBay thanking me for my patience (I tried to resolve this over a period of 4 months). Not only that, eBay themselves made an effort to have the item progressed through the postal service on my behalf. About 20 days later the parcel arrived and eBay allowed me to keep the refunded amount.All a bit odd but at the end of the day I am super happy to finally get my hands on a Roland MT-32 (Rev 0) at a VERY good price

author: austfox
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2021, 10:04:44 am
content: Quote from: gnif on May 23, 2021, 04:55:04 amDid you end up paying the seller, who is obviously out of pocket?

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2021, 10:57:00 am
content: EBay sometimes take the financial hit and do not reclaim the funds from the seller in a ‘no blame’ case.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2021, 11:15:21 am
content: Quote from: gnif on May 23, 2021, 04:55:04 amI had something similar with an Amazon shipment once, that was mis-delivered. Amazon sent a replacement box of stuff... and then, a few days later, a neighbour turned up with the misdelivered box! - I called Amazon, they said "keep it"... - apparently, once written off on the insurance, the goods no longer exists to them!

author: DiTBho
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2021, 11:40:04 am
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on May 23, 2021, 11:15:21 amGuys, you were lucky. I bought a couple of alphanumeric LCDs from eBay, and according to the tracking the parcel was delivered 400Km far from me, but for eBay operator (probably not a professional one) "the parcel has been delivered" so they closed my claim.Yes, it has been delivered,BUTto the wrong address, why don't you check it out?!?I ordered a second couple of LCDs from a different seller and paid for a better shipping option. This time I explicitly asked the seller to have my parcel managed by UPS rather than several international services, with last mile managed by the national post.Two VCF LCDs cost me 60 euro shipped, but this time things went as expected

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2021, 11:53:01 pm
content: Quote from: DiTBho on May 23, 2021, 11:40:04 amWhat made the difference in my case, is that the Amazon delivery person took a picture of the package on the porch... of a house that was not mine!It is definitely problematic when the carrier messes up and misdelivers - their word is taken as gospel. I think all of them should be required to photograph the package at the point of delivery just like Amazon does...

author: gnif
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 24, 2021, 02:54:35 am
content: Quote from: austfox on May 23, 2021, 10:04:44 ameBay took the hit in this instance.

author: sn4k3
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2021, 11:01:25 pm
content: Quote from: gnif on May 24, 2021, 02:54:35 amHow you sure about that?All problems i had as seller they always take my money to give the fraudulent buyer, in most cases buyer with almost no feedback open a not recieved dispute, ebay delivery dates are lame for normal international orders which mean a international order will never reach buyer in the time they claim. Buyer open dispute in same day they can, even if tracking show the item just arrive to country, but for example it got stuck in customs or in transit and need more time, ebay auto refund buyer after the dispute time over, item get delivered after some days, they say they can't do anything now and they don't care.So i found the protection very bad balanced, the buyer feedback doesn't matter at all, almost no checking from ebay, all in behave of buyer even if i have a 5 star store with thousands of feedback vs a 0 feed back buyer.To "solve"/have more time i have to put wrong postage type to ebay expand delivery dates which i can't define my own anyway.On many cases problems are not from seller nor buyer, orders that never reach, are lost or stolen are very commun and we can't do nothing, we just ship the package, delivery are not our responsability, and for me in last year every tracked order i sent to US are simply not tracked back on US, it just lost the tracking after leaving my country, it looks to me that they just ignore the full tracking service and do what they want because it come from other country? No way i know if got delivered or not so buyer can take advantage of that to scam even after they got the item, because i don't have any proof of delivery.I have loss some money by now due this bad ebay policies and because of that i don't sell anything that expensive of my pocket because i know if i do i will be in a loss soon or latter.A much more fair policy would be a better handle of the case, look at seller and buyer feedback as well other evidences, if package is simple in transit recently then give it more time, and each time it change the local give a extra time to able to get delivered, customs can hold items for 30 days or more in some countries and what can we do?? That doesnt count at all to ebay... Buyer can even wait a few more time and only pickup when times pass to open a dispute, there's so many ways to scam that make this policies so stupid and no sense to sellers.In a not fault by both parties at least do 50/50 refund for each side so both share the loss, there's always risks in buying online and people should be aware of that, why seller should be always the one to blame

author: gnif
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 25, 2021, 03:20:53 am
content: Absolutely certain as I contacted the seller asking if he lost his money on this item, I like to think I am an honest and fair person.

author: dietert1
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2021, 06:31:37 am
content: The last two years i noticed subtle changes in ebay, which i have been using for almost twenty years now. They are turning into a scam system for catching stupid people. Majority of offers are from US, UK and China. If i a select "Germany" as origin, i am still looking at offers from China as i can recognize from the delivery times and when i happen to look at the sellers info at the bottom of the offer page. Recently they enforced payments through US enterprises, that nobody needs for deals inside European community or within Germany. We do have banks in Europe. If i select "EU" as origin, they don't show all offers from France or Italy.Some days ago i wrote an Email to a US seller about his HP 3457A offer, explaining how to perform a basic voltage measurement (no keypresses!) and the exact key sequence to display the type of plugin with the "Opt?" command. It was the third EMail i wrote to them within 10 days since i am looking for a working HP 3457A. The response was whether i really need to know the type of the scanner. It takes less than a minute to display it. This is an item that would be 430 € plus 100 € postage plus 100 € EU import taxes if everything works out. As paypal will take money for the currency conversion it will be more than US $ 800.They really try to find a buyer who doesn't care. And there seem to be lots of people who forget everything when looking at a colorful screen with nice images. It's just one example, but i think i have to go somewhere else.Regards, Dieter

author: DiTBho
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2021, 07:47:34 am
content: Quote from: sn4k3 on May 24, 2021, 11:01:25 pmYou have touse UPS, DHL, FeDex. More expensive, but safer, and faster. Just 5 days to have a parcel delivered abroad with someone who also prepares all the documentation for the customs. They also offer "postal stop" services, which covers the unlucky case where the consignee is not at home or the consignee's address is wrong or not clear. I had this problem with a couple of customers in Africa, their consignee's address were not clear and, instead of wasting time, UPS parked their parcels to the local postal stop office hence for eBay the status was "parcel has arrived to the final destination, awaiting for pickup"add 5 working days of delay to delivery time estimate in order to cover the worst case. Those services are really faster, 5 working days covers the maximum time their department needs to solve something related to customs or two failed attempts to delivery before parking the parcel in "postal stop"add 2-5 USD to the insurance to have the 95% of the money refund in case of problems

author: dietert1
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2021, 09:46:16 am
content: Yes that's another failure of ebay: They seem to enforce "postage included" offers, which makes sellers use postal services prone to fail.Recently i got three Peltier elements from China. They arrived after 7 weeks as a letter (!) with a soft envelope and those are ceramic parts. Each of the three parts had multiple corners broken away, one of them was dead with the red wire amiss. The seller was surprised by negative feedback and tried to explain to me she was forced to work like that. She had no chance to correct the mistake, since ebay blocks revision of a negative feedback after one or two weeks. I mean even a refund is a bad experience if you waited seven weeks.Regards, Dieter

author: DiTBho
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2021, 10:31:30 am
content: Quote from: dietert1 on May 25, 2021, 09:46:16 amPrecisely, and, worse still, this is somehow educating customers in the wrong way. eBay is not like Amazon who has a very solid logistic service, eBay demands all the postal service to external cheap companies which, as you have precisely summarized, are prone to fail.Last month I closed my eBay account because I want to do business anymore on eBay, I do not gain any more from it and the gain is not worth the effort, 2019 and 2020 have been very bad for my business, anyway in 2018, before Covid, I ended up the year with more than 200K items sold on eBay with a failure rate of 3/1000.During those gold years, a lot of people contacted me privately complaining my postal service were to expensive for the "eBay postage included" standard, and my standard answer was something like "that's my offer, that's my price list, that's my service, and I won't be offended if you buy from someone else"

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2021, 10:15:16 pm
content: I don't understand the "eBay postage included" comments? - when I sell something on eBay, I can choose whether to make the shipping free, or charge for shipping separately. Is that different in Europe, or something?

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2021, 10:39:00 pm
content: Quote from: gnif on May 23, 2021, 04:55:04 amWhat you have done is stolen the item from the person who sold it, due to a delay caused by the postal service which the seller had no control over. I know from experience that if one contacts the postal service they will simply point you to the online tracking info, their service reps can't give you any information beyond that. You didn't buy the item from ebay, you bought it from an individual or business who sold it through ebay, the loss comes out of their pocket, not from ebay. It isn't something I'd be proud of or bragging about.It's the risk of something like this happening due to unethical buyers that made me stop selling items on ebay altogether, it just isn't worth it. I once had an item take so long to arrive that the seller refunded me without me asking , then it eventually did show up and I contacted him and paid him for it because it's the right thing to do. It wasn't his fault that it took over a month to reach me.

author: dietert1
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2021, 06:00:41 am
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on May 25, 2021, 10:15:16 pmYou mean it happens because ebay proposes "shipping included" and sellers as buyers don't bother how they want the shipment?And what about that ebay global shipping program? I hate that, since i can't get a receipt for import taxes (VAT), so i can't get the VAT return. I guess they never pay import taxes but spend the money in corruption instead. 99 % of the sellers only offer that scheme and won't answer requests to offer an alternative, so i assume ebay enforces that scheme.Regards, DieterPS: In the end you never know whether ebay will promote your offer at all. Technically it is possible to ignore participants who take their own choices. If you think about it, even in a forum like this you don't know everybody gets the same lists.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 26, 2021, 06:46:04 am
content: Quote from: dietert1 on May 26, 2021, 06:00:41 amTo provide VAT return, import must happen in the country of delivery, and it's not. Or sales must be made in a very different way. Ebay would need buy items from the from seller, import them into EU, then sell them from EU entity with no VAT paid by business customer. There is nothing to do with fraud. Also ebay does not enforce it. It's sellers who do not want to bother with exporting, or don't know any better.

author: DiTBho
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2021, 06:50:36 am
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on May 25, 2021, 10:15:16 pmYou can choose, but eBay somehow tries to promote "free postage" and tells you that you have better chance to sell your items if you offer it as "postage already included", and this is somehow educating customer to see it as default choice and this way sellers who honestly asks money for UPS/FeDEX/.. are perceived as more expensive.It's also happening on Amazon with their "Prime" service. How many times you look at some product, you have subscribed the"Prime" program and reject all offers that require you to pay a courier?A seller on Amazon is not obliged to offer "postage included", but for Amazon standards if a seller doesn't agree with the Amazon logistic and offer it to his/her customers, then he/she will have less chances to sell stuff.Now, that's OK on Amazon because they have a very solid and good logistic service, while eBay ... doesn't have a logistic infrastructure, needs to use external cheap companies, and wants to compete with Amazon Prime because more and more people prefer to buy on Amazon and feels they need a solution to stay afloat. It makes sense, but their "eBay shipping program or their promoting "free postage" are both several light years far away from the logistic offered by Amazon.

author: DiTBho
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2021, 06:53:44 am
content: Quote from: dietert1 on May 26, 2021, 06:00:41 amProbably.And it's a serious problem at the end of the years with many items imported.I agree with that.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 26, 2021, 06:54:26 am
content: Quote from: james_s on May 25, 2021, 10:39:00 pmI've had such situations on eBay. When the item doesn't arrive, then the refund is fair, but when the itemdoesarrive, I have contacted the seller to make good on payment. I have had occasion where the amount has been small and the seller has said 'Don't worry about it" - but that is their prerogative. I like to try and do the right thing.

author: dietert1
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2021, 08:57:52 am
content: Quote from: wraper on May 26, 2021, 06:46:04 amLet me explain once more. In former years i used to import ebay items from the US and the import VAT i had to pay when collecting parcels at German customs was refunded later, because i am operating an enterprise cashing VAT from customers. This is no longer possible, since with the ebay global shipping program they cash VAT or at least say so but don't pay VAT to German customs, so there is no recipe and no refund, but a loss. And they don't cash 19 % extra (which is the German VAT percentage) but 30 to 35 %. All scam.Regards, Dieter

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 26, 2021, 12:34:07 pm
content: Quote from: dietert1 on May 26, 2021, 08:57:52 amLet me explain to you that most of the sellers who use GSP would not ship overseas at all if there was no GSP (and did not ship previously). Nor using GSP is mandatory for sellers. Also DHL, UPS, Fedex and other couriers do not offer free clearance, see other forum threads about "DHL ransom" and similar. So fee they calculated is not just VAT. They could be more clear about what you pay for though.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2021, 01:48:36 pm
content: Quote from: dietert1 on May 26, 2021, 06:00:41 amI think sellers just can't be bothered with the international shipping, it is more work to understand it and do it... that's certainly true in the US. The eBay Global Shipping program is aimed at those kinds of sellers, I think, not the ones that know what they are doing...

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2021, 01:53:29 pm
content: Quote from: DiTBho on May 26, 2021, 06:50:36 amYes, eBay tries to push "postage included" - maybe it makes the offers more comparable to n00b buyers, and maybe avoids stupidities like "product $1, shipping $99" scenarios?But there isn't anything stopping you from charging separately for shipping, is there? - I do that regularly, it hasn't stopped me selling stuff!

author: dietert1
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2021, 03:16:08 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on May 26, 2021, 12:34:07 pmYou still did not understand. DHL give me a recipe if i ask for it and i get the VAT refund. With ebay global shipping, the money just vanishes in one of their subsidaries. It's one example, there are other reasons why people go away from ebay. I'll never hesitate a second anymore if i can bypass ebay and do my business as it should be done, especially inside Germany or inside the EU.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 26, 2021, 03:42:46 pm
content: Quote from: dietert1 on May 26, 2021, 03:16:08 pmIt's you who stubbornly still refuse to understand, even though I already wrote why it is as it is. It's legally not possible to give you a receipt for VAT refund due to where/how importing is made. It's not intended for business costumers, just accept that. It's not possible to import, say in France, then deliver in Germany and provide you a receipt for VAT refund. Pitney Bowes imports stuff in bulk in one EU country, then ships separate packages to different destination countries. So it's not possible to give you a German invoice for VAT paid. VAT paid in some other EU country is not refundable to begin with.Quote from: wraper on May 26, 2021, 06:46:04 am

author: dietert1
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2021, 05:36:22 pm
content: So we agree that there will be an extra loss of at least 19 % or more with ebay global shipping, above the 20 % they take from the seller. And if you claim that there is one single country in Europe where they can provide import VAT recipes, i think that's fantasy. They are extremely stupid. People all over the world understand what they are doing to them and go away.PS: Calling others names is considered a violation of rules in this forum. Please behave.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 26, 2021, 06:52:08 pm
content: Quote from: dietert1 on May 26, 2021, 05:36:22 pmDon't put words in my mouth. I did not say that. Legally theycouldoffer that in the country of import, but it does not make much sense to bother just for a small minority of non target customers in a single country.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2021, 09:02:15 pm
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on May 26, 2021, 01:48:36 pmI stopped doing international sales a long time before I stopped selling on ebay completely. It's a huge pain, international postage out of the USA is crazy expensive and there's nothing I can do about that. It requires dropping the item off in person at the postage counter which means take time off work to go stand in line at the post office during business hours. The high cost of postage combined with the fact that ebay charges fees on the total transaction and currency exchange fees on top of that consumes any profit and makes it easy to end up with a loss. On top of that, shipping to a distant country makes it far easier to be defrauded and far harder to do anything about it. People whine and moan about the high shipping cost and think I'm gouging them even though I only charge the actual cost I have to pay to send it. The global shipping program helps but it still isn't worth it. I have nothing at all against people in other countries and would gladly sell to them if there were not numerous obstacles that makes it impractical. I don't think people in other countries understand how many hoops we have to jump through over here compared to shipping something within the USA.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2021, 09:06:03 pm
content: Quote from: Brumby on May 26, 2021, 06:54:26 amSure, if they say don't worry about it then don't worry about it, that's their choice. My beef is when a person exploits the system that is stacked against sellers and gloats about getting something for free, that's just wrong. If you get a refund and the item later shows up anyway the only ethical thing to do is either let the seller know it arrived and offer to pay for it, or refuse delivery and have it returned to the sender. Keeping an item after accepting a refund for non-delivery is theft.

author: tatel
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2021, 12:50:43 am
content: Quote from: james_s on May 26, 2021, 09:02:15 pmI have purchased goods from the US since 56K modems were the ultimate thingI already noticed that shipping from US and UK has become crazy expensive and I can easily see the carriers are to blame. To put it simply, chinese people can ship for 1/10 the price via their own couriers.Here in Spain a digital certificate like the ID card will let you, a private citizen, to process parcels trough customs from home in some 5 minutes. Of course no VAT return as private citizen. I don't mind about paying VAT, tariffs and shipping. But.Around April, 16th, a western courier called T*T, recently adquired by another, bigger one called F***X, asked for extra €50 from me, to do that 5 minutes customs paperwork. So i asked for the documentation needed to do it myself. They are legally compelled to do so, at least in Spain. Then:1- They warned me that, should I give the documentation to any other customs agent, they would charge their fee anyway2- Divided the shipment in three so I have three-fold paperwork to do (but that would be easy)3- Never gave to me the needed list of goods in each of the partial systems, and also messed up the weights (now that's not easy anymore)4- Gave an unknown origin to the third partial shipment (now it's impossible)In short: my shipment is nearing a full month since it got into customs and 45 days since shipped from Bristol. No hope to see it anytime soon. I don't even know if it will be finally delivered to me; it could perhaps be returned from customs to the seller.So, those western couriers are great, yeah. I mean, really. You know. May the managers of those western carriers catch, every week, crab lice the size of lobsters.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2021, 01:29:57 am
content: Quote from: tatel on May 27, 2021, 12:50:43 amI have an engineer friend in England and we used to exchange boxes of items related to our hobbies a few times a year, unusual light bulbs, electrical fittings, surplus finds and all sorts of other odds & ends. It was never as cheap as domestic postage but it was affordable, and they had a surface option that was slow but made it reasonable to send even quite large items. I sent a vintage American streetlight luminaire all the way over to England on two different occasions and he sent me a couple of rare 3' long SL/I sodium lamps, the only examples I've ever seen in this country. Then prices increased, and increased, then the surface option went away completely and the only services still offered was the expensive airmail options, that made large heavy items prohibitively expensive. Then prices increased some more, and more after that, and now sending something the size of a shoebox will cost over $50 and larger stuff is even more. I haven't sent anything in years because of that, if I want to exchange anything with him now I just wait until he visits the US on business and he takes whatever it is in his luggage on the plane.I would still be willing to ship international despite the hassles if the seller was willing to pay the cost, but when ebay started charging fees on the total transaction that just killed it. I can understand them wanting to keep people from scamming them out of fees by selling 99c items with $100 postage but when you buy the postage through ebay they know how much you really paid so it isn't possible to cheat them. I can understand charging fees on handling or other padding a seller adds but to charge a fee on postage that the seller has to pay for is pure greed. It should never be possible to lose money on a transaction, there is no excuse for the fees ever being more than the sale price of the item.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2021, 01:31:36 am
content: Quote from: tatel on May 27, 2021, 12:50:43 amAnd then they lobby the politicians to push the line that China's carriers are "too cheap", when - in reality - you could actually pay for a taxi to deliver your package in many European / American cities, and it would be cheaper than using a courier... LOL

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2021, 01:38:13 am
content: China's carriers probably are too cheap, but that doesn't mean ours are reasonable. There has got to be a middle ground that is both affordable and profitable.

author: tatel
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2021, 11:19:02 am
content: I don't think china carriers are working at a loss.When ordering from the likes of, say, digikey, a 50 bucks order gets you free shipment and free customs paperwork. You only need to pay VAT and tariffs to the delivery guy. Fast shipment. Works like a charm.So, digikey has to be working at a loss, right?To me it's clear the carriers are exploiting the small guys.

author: tatel
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2021, 12:25:43 pm
content: Found another thread about this. Very illustrative about that shipping costs madness. I for sure know that's true. I'm also searching by shipping costs now. I wish I could filter out ebay listings from US and UK. I would like to continue buying from US and UK people, but it has been made impossible in most cases.https://www.eevblog.com/forum/beginners/ebayshipping-costs-weirdness/Last March I bought an used computer from a company in the Midlands. I'm quite sure it was shipped via ebay shipping. It was not cheap, but I wasn't so crazy expensive, was delivered quite fast and there weren't any problems with customs whatsoever. Delivered to my door.From the top of my mind, ebay shipping was about 60% of the good's price. That included VAT and tariffs. Now for the Bristol F***x shipment, in the same conditions, it's 103%.So perhaps ebay shipping is more expensive now than it was before, but I found it's still about 40% cheaper than the likes of F***x

author: Yansi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2021, 12:55:23 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on May 27, 2021, 01:38:13 amI am pretty damn sure it is profitable already... but definitely not for you, as a customer!

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2021, 08:26:59 pm
content: Quote from: tatel on May 27, 2021, 11:19:02 amDepends on how you define "exploiting". Large companies that do a lot of volume are typically able to negotiate volume rates, individuals are not. It could be argued that that is exploiting the individual but it is really no different than any other volume purchase. You could go to a supermarket and buy a single tube of toothpaste for one price, or you could go to Costco like I did the other day and buy a pack of 5 tubes for only about double the cost of buying just one at the supermarket. Costco buys entire pallets of that toothpaste for an even lower price per tube, allowing them to mark it up and make a profit selling it to customers. That's how it works with almost anything, a bulk deal is less effort per unit sold so the price is lower. If you do a lot of business with a company they're likely to offer you perks such as volume discounts to keep you coming back. In my mind that isn't exploiting lower volume customers, it's just business.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2021, 08:30:59 pm
content: Quote from: tatel on May 27, 2021, 12:25:43 pmYou might be able to find a friend in the US or UK who is willing to collect several items you purchase and send them all over together in one box, or if you can find an excuse to visit either country you could collect the items from them and carry them home with you. That of course is not going to solve potential issues with your own government fleecing you on imports but there is nothing anybody in any other country can do about that.

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 28, 2021, 12:05:12 am
content: Just sent an item sold on Ebay to India, its been stuck in customs for over a week. Most likely it will get destroyed (no returns apparently), will see if Ebay is able to refund both seller + buyer or what.The buyer pointed out to me that on the UPS India customs page, there is a restriction on importing "Used merchandise". I will not be shipping anything to India again.But if someone in India wants to use a reshipper, thats all good.Quote from: tatel on May 27, 2021, 11:19:02 amDigikey has massive volume and gets discounts as mentioned by james. They also charge significant margin on many of their parts to compensate for the free shipping. Compare your country price to the US digikey price, you will see differential there alone.You can call it exploiting the small guys, or giving discounts to high volume important customers.It sucks, but what you should do is find a company that lets you access their shipping discounts, or a reseller, eg in Canada we have Netparcel.Quote from: dietert1 on May 26, 2021, 08:57:52 amFind a US->Germany reshipper that will deal with VAT, I'm sure one exists.No one says you have to use ebays GSP.

author: tatel
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 28, 2021, 12:51:23 am
content: Quote from: james_s on May 27, 2021, 08:26:59 pmBoth "Being asked for a 600€/hour form-filling ransom fee" and "Holding my property as hostage" fall into my concept of "exploitation"Big fishes getting a better deal doesn't make me any happier.I bet chinese carriers have real bigger volumes than DigiKey, yet I have to hear that DigiKey is probably too cheap.I'm attaching two screen shots, first one is a small 10 mm end mill holder, listed at $31.50. Second one is an email from them quoting 3 shipping options at 20, 38 and 86 US dollars.Please note that, even if I am being extorted right now, this is not about me. Yeah, I got caught this time. But I'm not among those great guys trying to carry a business making good quality things, then listing their products on the Net.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 28, 2021, 01:18:04 am
content: Quote from: tatel on May 28, 2021, 12:51:23 am$20 is pretty much what I'd expect to have to pay to send that part to Spain using USPS cheapest option... maybe closer to $30.Shipping costs are crrrrrrraazy. If an item is big enough, it becomes cheaper to fly over and pick it up, and take it home as baggage... LOL

author: tatel
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 28, 2021, 01:24:38 am
content: Quote from: thm_w on May 28, 2021, 12:05:12 amStill I don't feel any better thinking about big fishes getting a better deal. I can only guess than in a couple decades into time, all the world will be speaking about the Chinese Dream. I wonder what would say one of these that dumped the tea in Boston.Yeah, I already noted that price difference with China. I have nothing against clones that do the work.QuoteWell, if somebody is willing to pay me €600 hourly, count on me!But no, wait a second: I will do it for 300!

author: tatel
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 28, 2021, 03:06:43 am
content: Just out of curiosity I looked for container shipping. It turns out that a 20-foot container can be shipped to Bilbao from New York. Initial price is from $702. $710 from Miami. So, for what would be the cost of separately sending via DHL 10 of those end mills, an entire 20-foot container shipping could be bought.But, wait a minute. Those guys would ship the end mills from California. So, to be fair, the price from Los Angeles is $1,801. At DHL prices, sending 21 end mills will buy that 20-foot container shipping.Perphaps with the help of the Lord, a very hard-working guy could figure how to squeeze that scarce space to fit some 100 end mills in that container, and beat USPS's cheapest price.No doubt somebody is screwing it.https://www.icontainers.com/ship-container/bilbao/Edit: non-native speaker wording

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 28, 2021, 12:50:00 pm
content: Quote from: tatel on May 28, 2021, 03:06:43 amI guess the downside of the container idea is that it takes a month to send something... But it is cheap, for sure!

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 28, 2021, 05:10:44 pm
content: Those are the costs of shipping the container. You have to buy it first, and then it's a one-time thing unless you ship the container back (or buy another) to do it again. A quick glance at Ebay suggests a refurbed container is aboout £2K, so might be cheaper to buy a new one every time instead of shipping one back and forth (unless you can fill it on the return journey).Still cheaper than UPS though

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 28, 2021, 07:29:33 pm
content: What is the going rate for a container at the destination? You don't have to just throw away the container when you're finished with it, you can sell it to somebody else and use that toward your costs.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 28, 2021, 07:39:07 pm
content: Finding someone who needs one at the other end would be a cool move. Hmmm. Could be an opportunity for someone...

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 28, 2021, 07:59:04 pm
content: I have no experience in the shipping industry, but I would have thought there would be a business near every major port that deals in shipping containers, buying and selling, new, used and refurbished, that kind of thing.

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 28, 2021, 09:54:30 pm
content: Quote from: tatel on May 28, 2021, 01:24:38 amHow about this, we used to buy production quantities from Digikey, enough reels to the point that they called me up and said "You buy a lot from us, would you like a bulk discount?". I said no.I'm sure they made some extra money off our orders.Now compare to some hobbyist buying 10 values of a 1c resistor and spends $8 for shipping. I guarantee they lose money on that order.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 28, 2021, 11:38:48 pm
content: Why would you say no to an offer of a bulk discount? Selling in volume requires less effort per unit sold, so it's perfectly reasonable to pay less per unit. Volume buyers can almost always get a better deal, otherwise there would be no need for most of the supply chain, everyone would just buy from the manufacture. I see no problem with this.

author: Rasz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 29, 2021, 03:52:00 am
content: Shipping cost including container from US to Netherlands or Germany - 500-1000Container pickup and transport = $500-1000 depending on the coastcustoms and handling at source port in US = up to $500customs and handling at destination port = probably another $500, depends on port and countrymore paperwork = 75 USDcost of transport from destination port, cost of loading/unloadingit all quickly adds up

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 29, 2021, 09:35:26 am
content: Quote from: james_s on May 28, 2021, 11:38:48 pmGoing to bulk I would guess came with some mandatory monthly volume that they had to comply with, so if your volumes are variable a lot, just keeping to the one price list will probably end up being cheaper in the long run. For the supplier it means they can then get a big volume of each in, getting a better price, knowing that this will be covered over a year by the regular sales, with the penalty more than covering the cost to them of storage for the parts.

author: tatel
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 29, 2021, 12:17:07 pm
content: Quote from: Rasz on May 29, 2021, 03:52:00 amYou are right. Still not all costs always apply, but, let's say it's even $5000.You get 33 cubic meters and 28 metric tons payload on a 20' container.Of course I can easily find a whole bunch of container resellers, facilities, customs agents, etc, near Bilbao's harbour, and I'm sure it's the same in every city having a harbour with good draught, all around the world.You can also get space in a shared container. I'm sure prices will be higher tough...Point is, we are in the 21th century and getting a small end mill holder shouldn't be an epic adventure like sailing around the world in a carrack to trade cloves and nutmeg in the 1520s

author: tatel
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 29, 2021, 02:12:03 pm
content: Quote from: thm_w on May 28, 2021, 09:54:30 pmYeah, all a guy needs is a fair enough deal

author: DiTBho
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 29, 2021, 02:53:54 pm
content: Bad news for sellers: eBay now requires a bank account for sellers. Paypal is no more an option.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 29, 2021, 04:47:35 pm
content: I would normally be ambivalent about giving them my bank account details. On the one hand it is simple and they can deposit funds easily. However, the big worry is that they can take funds out on a whim. If a buyer demands a refunds, it is trivial for them to take it from my account and argue the toss later, and it is far harder to claim it back than to let it go.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 29, 2021, 07:33:14 pm
content: Quote from: dunkemhigh on May 29, 2021, 04:47:35 pmCan they take money out of your account without authorization?

author: sn4k3
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 29, 2021, 09:03:10 pm
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on May 29, 2021, 07:33:14 pmWhen you accept a mandate and agree with terms you are giving authorization to them to do what ever they think is fair inside the terms. So yes.You can't complain because you accepted the terms.

author: tatel
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 29, 2021, 10:12:27 pm
content: Quote from: sn4k3 on May 29, 2021, 09:03:10 pmIt looks like a lot of people is going to have a new, ebay-only account...edit: s/paypal/ebay/

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 29, 2021, 11:22:37 pm
content: Quote from: tatel on May 29, 2021, 10:12:27 pmI'm just going to give selling on eBay a rest for a while, and see where this goes... if enough of us do that, maybe they change their minds...

author: Rasz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2021, 08:47:39 am
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on May 29, 2021, 07:33:14 pmin UK yeshttps://www.theguardian.com/money/2008/jan/07/personalfinancenews.scamsandfraudin Poland no fg way anyone can have a cent without owner authorization

author: daveyk
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2021, 04:06:43 pm
content: I recently had a similar issue on EBAY (but luckily the seller was nice). They created the shipping tracking number (in this case with FEDEX), the number was 100% valid. The problem is the seller never dropped it off with FEDEX.After about three weeks, I contacted the seller, he blamed it on poor employees handling the business while he was sick. He refunded me the money (it was only $6 per item, two items, anyway, so I wasn't worried) for both items ($6) each and he said he canceled the order. I told him, keep the money, just ship me the items when you can. From what I could tell, he was not in good shape and things had gotten a bit disheveled. A few days later one item finally showed up (even though he refunded me). I kind of felt bad about that.The items were only rubber feed for a very old Black & Decker WorkMate fold up portable bench. Since 2017, that is the only problem I have had buying on EBAY.I do remember a case in late 2017, where I argued with PayPlay and got nowhere (it was over a $1000 item that never was shipped), even though there was a tracking number - just like your case. My wife got on with them (holy hell I do miss her) and the next morning I had the refund. I do not have the negotiating skills or the ability to go non-stop the way she had. If you would have dealt with her you would have thought every member of both our families are attorneys. She was one person, you did not cross. My guess is she wore them out. The just could not hand up on a customer and she would not on them. She would go up and up management levels. She never lost an argument LOL

author: DiTBho
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2021, 05:01:08 pm
content: Quote from: daveyk on May 30, 2021, 04:06:43 pmPeople lie sometimes. If you find a dishonest person, who is also a bloody liar, there will be neither a way to discussion something nor a compromise for a solution, and eBay and Paypal can't help in this case.

author: DiTBho
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2021, 05:05:02 pm
content: In protest, a friend of mine closed his old account and created one by telling eBay that it will be for purchases only, and he will not link any bank account and he won't sell anything.

author: daveyk
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2021, 05:50:39 pm
content: "and he will not link any bank account"How does he pay?I wonder how it will be now that EBAY is handling paying the sellers and not using PayPal for that? I guess buyers still pay with PayPal, but sellers can only get paid by ebay. It may be tighter control to protect the buyer. I have sold some equipment on EBAY recently and had to go on and fill out a bunch of stuff to be able to continue selling on there.Dave

author: daveyk
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2021, 05:53:28 pm
content: "dishonest person, who is also a bloody liar"I now remember one other minor instance: I bought a Dallas DRAM from a vendor. It turned out to be from China. It was $40 or $45. A few weeks later, I go it. It was not the correct chip and did not work. That never used chip was a pull from something. I went through EBAY and started a complaint process, which included me messaging the seller. In three days, they did not respond and EBAY refunded by money including the shipping.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2021, 08:23:03 pm
content: I learned an early lesson in buying some DIMMs. They arrived but were dead, and the vendor said he'd replace or refund if I sent them back. Being Ebay-naive at that time I did so, then waited. And waited. Emailed the vendor whose first question was, "What was the tracking reference?" Of course, I hadn't used tracking (as he no doubt noticed when they turned up). Not that expensive as these lessons go, fortunately.

author: DiTBho
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2021, 08:31:15 pm
content: Quote from: daveyk on May 30, 2021, 05:50:39 pmYou are required to mandatory link a bank account if you want to sell.If you want to buy, you can use Paypal, or SEPA, or other payment options.If you don't link anything, you cannot sell. You can only buy.

author: DiTBho
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2021, 09:26:12 pm
content: Quote from: daveyk on May 30, 2021, 05:53:28 pmIt's easy when you claim "item not as described". Sometimes you have to *somehow* lie about that.I have several examples where the seller asked me to pay for a parcel but shipped a soft postal envelope. When things don't arrive damaged I don't have anything to complain, except it's a bit dishonest, but ok, and usually I even leave a positive feedback. But most of the time things arrive damaged, and worse still when the seller lies to eBay, then .. I have to lie in my turn and tell eBay the item is not as described rather than "goods perfectly as described, but arrived damaged because the used shipping method was not the one described".I don't like to lie, but I don't think my lie in this case is far from the reality, simply eBay doesn't care if an object arrives "damaged", they only care if the item is not as described, so I have to tell them this.Otherwise eBay won't help

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2021, 10:31:44 pm
content: That's not actually a lie. The advert was for something that wasn't damaged. The seller is responsible foreverythinguntil his shipper has dumped the parcel in your hands. Thus a damaged item is not the one you bought, so it not as described.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 31, 2021, 01:27:38 pm
content: Quote from: dunkemhigh on May 30, 2021, 10:31:44 pmI agree - if the item arrives damaged, it is "not as described". Buyer cannot claim on the postal insurance... the power to remedy the situation is purely in sellers' hands.Not as described, job done.

author: dietert1
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 31, 2021, 07:54:50 pm
content: Quote from: dietert1 on May 25, 2021, 06:31:37 amToday i received a HP3457A including the 44492A scanner in good condition from a German company for € 335. ebay not involved.Regards, Dieter

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 31, 2021, 08:41:00 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on May 28, 2021, 11:38:48 pmAt the time, I didn't get paid nearly enough to care.Quote from: tatel on May 29, 2021, 10:12:27 pmYes, mentioned here or in another thread, I have an ebay only account for direct deposit, its not a full fledged bank account but still works fine (see transferwise, koho, etc equivalent in your country).If you are super paranoid you can move that money out asap.