UK PM Favoring Hydrogen powered cars over electric in the UK. - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: DougSpindler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2020, 09:45:15 am
content: UK PM is pushing for the UK to go with Hydrogen cars over electric. Maybe someone in the UK might want to share this video with him.https://youtu.be/f7MzFfuNOtY

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 19, 2020, 10:20:24 am
content: Please don't let this thread spiral out of control like many others before it. The first sniff of bullying or political nonsense and it's getting locked/deleted. Keep the conversation about the technology.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2020, 10:44:04 am
content: Quote from: DougSpindler on August 19, 2020, 09:45:15 amThat video if from 2018. In 2018 there was a small scale government program to put a couple of hundred hydrogen powered police cars and taxis on UK roads, subsidised heavily by the government. I don't know what became of that, and what models they may have used. I assume they were specially imported, as no hydrogen cars were being offered by a UK dealer network. We have a different PM now, and the only electric cars anyone talks about are battery powered. However, Hyundai have recently launched the hydrogen powered Nexo in the UK, so something must be happening. Its eye wateringly expensive (70k pounds for a smallish SUV) and completely impractical unless you happen to live near a fuel station and don't take long journeys. It does, however, seem to actually be available from ordinary Hyundai dealers.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 19, 2020, 11:19:43 am
content: Hydrogen is still in people minds. I think I got an enquiry from a small car maker that was running hydrogen, I know fuel cells are still under consideration.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2020, 02:29:20 pm
content: I could see a hydrogen + battery hybrid potentially being a reasonable solution, a bit like a gasoline - electric hybrid, attempting to get the best of both worlds.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 19, 2020, 02:34:38 pm
content: The problem with Hydrogen is the production, storage and transportation. You have to use electricity or the "green" nature of it is not there but to do that is so inefficient. If the production is 50% and the ICE is 30% of that 50% you are at 15% before you worry about storage (power for compressors) and transport.Making hydrogen from excess wind at night and using it for an on site "gas peaker plant" makes sense but that's about it.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2020, 02:45:45 pm
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on August 19, 2020, 02:29:20 pmMixed fuel systems tend to be the worst of all possible worlds, as you are carrying around the weight of two systems. However, current hydrogen cars do have a small battery pack, used to make the car more responsive, and to do the KERS stuff a Prius has always done for efficiency.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2020, 02:50:50 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on August 19, 2020, 02:34:38 pmUsing excess renewable energy to make liquid fuels from water and the CO2 in the air makes a lot more sense than making hydrogen. Easy storage, even long term. Easy transportation. Easy to build systems that don't need to tolerate the enormous pressures, leakage, and embrittlement issues that plague hydrogen systems. We understand liquid fuels. We just need to stop using non-renewable/non-recyclable ones.

author: DougSpindler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2020, 02:56:29 pm
content: Sorry not trying top mislead with a 2018 video. The video was to be a reminder of how unpractical In so many ways Hydrogen power cars are.The August 2020 news story from the UK was a PM or parliament doesn’t want to be held “hostage” to Africa and China for the raw materials/metals used in batteries. (Not sure if was Lithium or rare-Earth metals.) Anyway the PM in the interview was saying/promoting the UK moving toward Hydrogen powered cars instead of electrical. Apparently in the UK, there’s one bus and a small number of cars which are Hydrogen powered. And you have a car manufacture or two that’s making (or about to make) Hydrogen powered cars. This bus and the cars can be filled from that vast network of 6 Hydrogen fueling stations. As compared to the 8,000 EV charging stations or the 32,000 petrol stations.As the UK is Britexiting, is this just something else for the British to exit? (Meaning the EV car market?).Is this a conspiracy plot to keep the British isolated? Petrol and Hydrogen powered cars aren’t allowed in the EuroTunnel Which means British will have to stay at home, where the French and Germans with their EV cars will be allowed to invade through the EuroTunnel.While the PM claims these cars while operating are green and produce no greenhouse gases that’s not true. Hydrogen vehicles produce NOx pollutants unless they have tanks of oxygen in addition to the tanks of Hydrogen. The science (chemistry and physics) has already told us this is not going to work. But that never stops a politician does it?

author: filssavi
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2020, 02:58:00 pm
content: Hydrogen and batteries have basically the diametrically opposite problems, for one is the vehicle storage, for the other is the grid side infrastructure.In neither case the problems are technically insurmountable, however for hydrogen the echonomics are extremely sketchy.The biggest problem right now (with commercially available at scale, not one off research projects) hydrogen production that does not involve crude oil, coal or natural gas. Electrolysis is quite energy intensive and inefficient, and other methods using the thermal Output of nuclear reactors are politically infeasible.Creating a distribution network will also be extremely expensive while putting few dozens stations on main highways is not that difficult you can’t expect wide adoption until you have something comparable to what you have for gasoline now... ecc.That said probably in the long run (50 to 100 years from now) hydrogen will be the bridge between nuclear fusion (if it happens) and vehicles

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 19, 2020, 03:04:54 pm
content: Quote from: DougSpindler on August 19, 2020, 02:56:29 pmRemember Politicians are driven by ideas and appearances often and they don't understand what they are talking about they can but rely on experts. There is also the potential for corruption where a politician wants to award a mate a contract so ignores the science.At the moment there are arguments and counter arguments for most technology and for some like hydrogen it's not until you do the full start to finish analysis that it becomes obvious so it's easy to point people at one aspect and claim it's great.If we had a no cost source of hydrogen then sure.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2020, 03:15:10 pm
content: Quote from: DougSpindler on August 19, 2020, 02:56:29 pmHydrogen electric cars still need rare earths for their motors. We need access to limited resources for almost any advanced technology.Quote from: DougSpindler on August 19, 2020, 02:56:29 pmI think Tata is investing in hydrogen powered designs at Jaguar Land Rover. I don't know why, as they are not the kind of maker so flush with cash that they can afford to try some high cost experimental developments.Tata isn't British, but enough of its Jaguar Land Rover operations are still in the UK that government people will always stand up and cheer lead for them, whatever they really think.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 19, 2020, 03:18:20 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on August 19, 2020, 03:15:10 pmIf you are a UK corp and you the first into a technology in the UK you claim additional money for R&D so the cost go down as it comes off the tax bill.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2020, 03:25:50 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on August 19, 2020, 03:18:20 pmThree issues there.It will cost a LOT to get to the point Toyota and Hyundai are at right now with hydrogen cars. The government will only pick up a part of that bill.Getting assistance with the development costs only benefits you if the end product has a real and large opportunity in the market.Tata isn't British, and seems to be moving Jaguar Land Rover away from the UK, inch by inch.None of this looks promising.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2020, 03:28:48 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on August 19, 2020, 03:18:20 pmAlso, car companies like to be seen as innovative and involved in futuristic technology. Even if not a single production car ever appears...

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 19, 2020, 03:29:08 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on August 19, 2020, 03:25:50 pmYes but to do the actual development will not cost what the actual value to the company and once you are signed up to the R&D scheme you can just throw expenses at it. all labor and overheads can be covered as well as material costs so the first 20% is off tax, the next 40% is on the scheme so it only costs 40% in the first place to dabble and maybe get a runner.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2020, 09:12:58 pm
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on August 19, 2020, 02:29:20 pmAlmost every hydrogen vehicle has a small li-ion battery. This is good because you get regen braking (at least until the pack fills up), and necessary to give the vehicle more power, as most fuel cells produce only 70-100kW which isn't much power for a larger vehicle. I recall some older fuel cells had difficulty "spooling up" quickly too - they could produce the power required but needed about 10-15 seconds to get to that power level. So adding a battery lets you make a 200kW (~268hp car) like many pure battery-EVs have now, with just a relatively small 70kW or so fuel cell. Not sure if this is still considered a problem.In fact, you would only need to size the fuel cell to produce enough power to continue the car at, say, 75 mph cruise on the steepest motorway/highway gradient. In the UK, that is 4% by design. There are some 60 mph NSLs that have gradients as steep as 1 in 4, so that may be a bigger energy consumer. This would need to be worked out for worst case temperature (-20C, +35C), strongest HVAC load, heaviest vehicle load, lower-than-standard inflation tyres and poorest quality hydrogen fuel.For cars though, I am not convinced about hydrogen as a mainstream fuel/product.I do think hydrogen vehicles make a huge amount of sense for HGVs, coaches and perhaps even some LGVs. The big reasons are:- For HGVs and coaches, you likely can get away with a considerably smaller and well planned fuelling network, with fuelling at major truck stops and motorway services. A 300 ~ 400 mile range hydrogen truck would then be quite practical, provided it could refuel in <10 minutes.- Fuelling can also be done at depots/warehouses/destinations too, while the vehicle is being unloaded (provided appropriate safety precautions are taken...)- The cost of a huge Li-Ion pack is, well, huge. But bigger hydrogen tanks don't cost that much more. For a car, the argument is much harder to make: an 80kWh battery is almost certainly cheaper than a fuel cell and tank system, and packaging the tanks is extremely difficult (just look at the odd packaging inside the Toyota Mirai). But having 500kg tank storage of hydrogen in a truck sounds quite practical, if you also only need say a 300kW fuel cell and say a 20-30kWh buffer battery.

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2020, 10:19:58 pm
content: Quote from: DougSpindler on August 19, 2020, 02:56:29 pmCan we please actually have some proper reference to this interview so we can judge for ourselves what was actually said and by whom? So far we've just your précis of a news story reporting some talking points and a reference like "The August 2020 news story from the UK was a PM or parliament" doesn't give very much confidence that you even know who was doing the talking - if I was to say (of the US) "a president or senate" you would suspect that I didn't have a clue what I was talking about.QuoteIf a fuel cell vehicle is producing NOxin anything other than trace quantities it's because it is on fire.

author: DougSpindler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2020, 10:54:15 pm
content: Cerebus Certainly.PM is Duncan Smith.The bus company making the hydrogen powered buses in Wrightbus.The Hydrogen powered car being manufactured in the UK by Hugo Spowers' company Riversimple is called the Rasa.I wasn't sure if it was powered by an ICE or fuel cell. I verified it's a fuels cell so no NOx emissions.The show I was listed to in the US is called MarketPlace.As China moves to dominate the EV industry, Britain frets about energy securityhttps://www.marketplace.org/2020/08/14/as-china-moves-to-dominate-the-ev-industry-britain-frets-about-energy-security/The MarketPlace show hosts are considered very credible.Trying to present info free of conspiracy theories and alt-facts. Hope everyone else here will do the same.

author: ahbushnell
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2020, 10:56:32 pm
content: Quote from: Cerebus on August 19, 2020, 10:19:58 pmI think they are assuming a combustion engine running on H2 + Air.

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2020, 11:22:18 pm
content: Quote from: DougSpindler on August 19, 2020, 10:54:15 pmErm, what do you think you mean by "PM"? Everybody here is assuming that you mean "Prime Minister" for which it is the customary abbreviation. Did you mean MP for "Member of Parliament" and Iain Duncan Smith for "Duncan Smith". If it's IDS (who currently holds no government position) holding forth it's a very different story from the Prime Minister Boris Johnson holding forth.Edited to add: Now quickly read the story, it is Iain Duncan Smith, a backbench MP (i.e. of no particular influence on national policy and generally regarded as a bit of a windbag [polite word substituted for the more colourful Scot's description that I'd usually use for him]).

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2020, 11:24:16 pm
content: Mercedes Benz have been playing with hydrogen/fuel cell buses for years now.Transperth in Perth WA had a couple of them running "on trial" for quite a few years.The hydrogen storage problem didn't seem to faze them-----the main problem was unreliability of the fuel cells.Eventually, they gave up on the trial, & have stuck with CNG buses, which make up the vast majority of the fleet.CNG makes sense in a State with large reserves of Natural Gas. but isn't all that good environmentally.

author: DougSpindler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2020, 11:53:17 pm
content: Quote from: Cerebus on August 19, 2020, 11:22:18 pmSorry, guess I gave him a title he was not worthy entitled to. Is "windbag" the American equivalent right now for "President of the United States"? If so we have one of those right now.Is a backbench MP a former or retired MP? (I have a hard enough time understanding our political system.) So he really doesn't have any power to set or greatly influence political policies? So effectually this is a nothing of a story?

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2020, 12:07:41 am
content: Quoteunfortunately his proper title is Sir dunked in shit ,knighted for being absolutely useless.

author: DougSpindler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2020, 12:12:24 am
content: Quote from: themadhippy on August 20, 2020, 12:07:41 amUS equivalent I guess would be President, Senator, Congressman, lawyer, judge and newscaster. Or someone who is in "Military Intelligence".

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2020, 12:38:29 am
content: Quote from: vk6zgo on August 19, 2020, 11:24:16 pmThere is quite a lot of activity in fuel cell truck and bus R&D. Much more than with cars.

author: DougSpindler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2020, 01:39:48 am
content: Quote from: coppice on August 20, 2020, 12:38:29 amI'm not an expert in fuel cells but isn't one of the limiting factor is they use Platinum and other rare earth elements?https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Elemental_abundances.svgThere's just enough for a few million cars. Then what do we do?How about batteries made from Lithium? We have an abundance of Lithium.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2020, 06:30:16 am
content: It is worth noting that we don't have an abudance of cobalt, which is needed to make Li-Ion batteries at large scales for trucks and buses. There is probably enough to make all cars electric for the next decade or so, but we will need to find a substitute for long term mass production. Tesla have been working on cobalt-free Li-Ion cells ... not sure if they are successful yet.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 20, 2020, 06:55:22 am
content: Quote from: DougSpindler on August 19, 2020, 10:54:15 pmwrightbus went under in sept 2019. I don't know what if anything was resurected out of them. Another bus company (ADL) is looking at hybrids to basically just dodge the congestion zone issue so they drive a mile on battery and then switch back to diesel.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2020, 09:23:46 am
content: If the hybrids are anything like the ones in Leeds they're bloody useless.At least 50% have defective battery packs so they run on engines all the time.And the other 50% take off pretty silently on electric (sounds quite nice with a very quiet 'whine' from the motor) and then make a horrible clattering sound as the cold diesel engine spools up again.

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2020, 10:38:37 am
content: Quote from: DougSpindler on August 19, 2020, 11:53:17 pmThe Prime Minister appoints members of the cabinet (i.e. the executive) from members of parliament, either the Commons or the Lords (the two houses of Parliament - roughly equivalent to the House and the Senate). This is unlike the States where the President can appoint some bloke he met in a bar in Boston to an executive post but then has to get him confirmed by the Senate - you have no pre-requirement like we do for a member of the executive to be drawn from one of your houses of Parliament*.The rôle of members of parliament is associated with where they physically sit in Parliament when it is in session. Members of the UK executive government, the Cabinet, are called front benchers, as are members of the opposition who have been appointed to shadow cabinet rôles by the leader of the opposition. Every elected MP in the Commons who is not a front bencher (the cabinet and shadow cabinet) is called a back bencher - a subset of the back benchers are the cross benchers, MPs elected for political parties (and independents) that are not either the government or the official opposition party. The House of Lords has similar but different seating arrangements and different names, it as a whole takes much more of a back seat (pun intended) in UK politics.So yes, that reads as a nothing story. In fact it reads as the result of a PR trying to drum up some coverage. Quite why IDS was picked for a quote I don't know - it's not about companies from his constituency (Chingford), he's never held a post related to transport or the environment so there isn't even the possibility that he's acquired any relevant expertise along the way. He was a Lieutenant in the Army, perhaps they put him in charge of the bicycle sheds and of the 2nd Lieutenant in charge of the bicycle pump? He probably still has some influence in parliament's back corridors but he most certainly doesn't speak for the government.The word I originally had in mind was "gobshite" which might suit your purposes better than "windbag".*Strictly, the convention that UK executive positions are drawn from members of one of the two houses of Parliament is that, a convention. I don't think it has force of law but I'm not going diving intoErskin Mayto check that.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 20, 2020, 11:35:19 am
content: I don't think lords can be cabinet members, they may be appointed to niche committees?IDS got a lot of bad press as he presided over a department that became very unpopular due to the way it rolled out new policies. Maybe he is seizing the opportunity to have his name associated with a positive story?At the moment the UK government only talk to people they like. The BBC has been reduced to interviewing it's own people....

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2020, 12:17:07 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on August 20, 2020, 11:35:19 amYes they can, otherwise how come Baroness Evans of Bowes Park, Leader of the House of Lords, is a current cabinet member? Gordon Brown's cabinet had two members of the Lords and so have others before and since.Quote from:https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/sn05226/Also don't forget the huge list of Lordsthisand Earlthatand so on, that have been Prime Minister - the Earls of Wilmington, Bute, Chatham, Shelburne, Liverpool, Derby, Beaconsfield, Rosebery, Lord North, Lord Russell, Baron Grenville , the Dukes of Newcastle, Devonshire, Grafton, Portland, Wellington, Marquis of Rockingham, Salisbury, Viscounts Goderich, Melbourne, Palmerston. You have to hit the 20th century before it's normal for the Prime Minister to be a Commoner.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 20, 2020, 12:19:56 pm
content: Oh, I thought the idea was that we had half a shot at electing them but same difference really.Well two companies in the UK are developing hydrogen fuel cell busses.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2020, 12:27:31 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on August 20, 2020, 11:35:19 amThere have been a few lords who were cabinet ministers. In most governments there are several junior minsters who are lords. A lord can be prime minister, too, but its not considered a good thing. When Lord Alex Douglas Hume became prime minister he stood for a parliamentary seat because it was considered the right thing to do, not because it was a requirement.

author: DougSpindler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2020, 01:08:40 pm
content: For what it is worth....Wrightbus is a Northern Ireland based bus manufacturer and a pioneer of the low-floor bus. The company was established in 1946 by Robert Wright and was run by his son William Wright.On 25 September 2019, Wrightbus entered administration with the suspension of 1,300 jobs at their factory.On 11 October 2019, a deal was reached in principle between Jo Bamford and the Wright family for the land used by the factory, a sticking point in negotiations to sell the firm, although a deal was only made with the administrators on 22 October 2019, with Jo Bamford's Bamford Bus Company concluding a takeover of the company.

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2020, 01:13:23 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on August 20, 2020, 12:27:31 pmAlec Douglas-Home is an odd case. He was an elected Commoner for several years, retired from politics for a while, got elected again, then left the Commons when he acceded to the title14th Earl of Homeon his father's death, served in the cabinet as Leader of the House of Lords and then as Foreign Secretary, then as Prime Minister all as a member of the House of Lords and only once actually in the post of Prime Minister did he resign his title and stand for election again. I think it was more a matter of knowing that the British public in the 1960s wouldn't stand for an unelected Prime Minister with a hereditary title rather than any principles that led to him resigning his seat in the House of Lords. He later re-entered the House of Lords as a life peer with the title Baron Home of the Hirsel.He probably never took an omnibus, eco-friendly or otherwise, in his entire life.

author: DougSpindler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2020, 03:20:25 pm
content: Was this story covered in the UK? Or did your press pass on it leaving it for international press?

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 20, 2020, 03:58:53 pm
content: the article looks like some poor excuse for journalism with a few bits thrown in here and there. all of these companies are doing R&D which is not national headline making. River simple started ages ago, where is this car that has no hydrogen stations to power it?

author: DougSpindler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2020, 05:57:40 pm
content: This topic was covered on Marketplace. Marketplace is a financial and investment new show that's been on for many years in the US or our National Public Radio station. Not a lot of in depth reporting, but what they do report is interesting.Anyone here of Quibi? This is another company they covered. It was a mobile-based mashup of Netflix and Youtube. Investors include Disney, NBCUniversal, Sony, Viacom, AT&T's/WarnerMedia. As I recall they raised $1 billion dollars. As I recall Qubi went live and folded within a month. That was another Marketplace story. Just trying say they are not conspiracy or fake news program.I have no idea how they pick their topics, but the one on hydrogen cars caught my attention. With what I have learned from this forum about Hydrogen powered cars and physics of Hydrogen powered cars it was hard to believe the UK would do something so silly. But then again our Precedent thinks we need a space force without understanding the physics or the cost involved. I think it was calculated a space force of 100 tropes would be one half of our entire military budget. But then let's not the facts get in the way of the issues.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 20, 2020, 06:16:19 pm
content: i am not saying any of the stories are fake and I personally was contacted business wise for both the bus and by riversimple but what they are doing is just not general public newsworthy it's niche to either people interested in the technical like us or the investment opportunities like the programs you saw. But then I don't watch TV and just listen to the radio (BBC). I find with technical things the BBC never knows what it is talking about so it's entirely possible that insignificant things are given air time whilst actual newsworthy items ignored.

author: DougSpindler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2020, 06:35:07 pm
content: This forum, like many others and our news seems to be filled with conspiracy theorists, fake-news and alt-news. For the intelligent, educated people who are participating in this thread I wanted to make it clear this isn't a junk news show. I'm so tired of looking at the posts of uneducated people who have never taken a basic science class and think they know what they are talking about. (Dunning-Kruger effect.) Or even worse are the ones who know they know they are propagating false information.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 20, 2020, 06:48:23 pm
content: It's not all that bad, they get banned when they persist so it's not the norm.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2020, 07:23:24 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on August 20, 2020, 06:48:23 pmWouldn't it be nice if the "real world" could be moderated. So spouting deliberate BS had consequences, like being banned etc.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2020, 07:28:13 pm
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on August 20, 2020, 07:23:24 pmNo. It would be terrible, because there is nobody who can be trusted to moderate. It's an authoritarian's wet dream.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 20, 2020, 07:29:32 pm
content: Yea OK we are going off topic.