Intel Buying SiFive? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Sal Ammoniac
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2021, 11:15:35 pm
content: Hmmmm... I wonder what this means for RISC-V?https://www.tomshardware.com/news/intel-offers-dollar2-billion-for-risc-v-startup-sifive-bloomberg

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2021, 02:06:39 am
content: Good lord.

author: brucehoult
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2021, 03:24:05 am
content: An offer is possibly quite far from buying. It seems there may be multiple offers. All could be refused.At minimum it does help set a base valuation for the next funding round, if there is one.I struggle to see how such a deal would make sense for anyone. Ok, maybe SiFive founders if they want a "never need to work again" pay day now rather than a potentially much bigger pay day later on. But I think at least Krste, Andrew, and Yunsup actually do want to change the world and burying SiFive inside Intel quite likely would not help with that.Intel doesn't need to buy SiFive to get a license to make RISC-V chips. Anyone is allowed to. Buying SiFive doesn't give control of RISC-V. Intel doesn't need SiFive technology, unless they're planning to get into microcontrollers and IoT, and even then they can (and already do) simply license cores from SiFive. SiFive's most sophisticated shipping cores are around original Pentium or PowerPC 601/603 in complexity (at much higher MHz obviously) Pentium Pro level cores have been announced but are not yet shipping. That's 25 years behind Intel. Intel could do an Apple M1-style RISC-V very easily if they want to, but they don't need to buy SiFive to do it -- it wouldn't even make it easier, particularly.Does it make sense for SiFive or RISC-V? It's hard to see it. Too much risk of getting buried inside the behemoth. It's not even as if Intel can threaten to compete with them and squash them -- SiFive's battle for the foreseeable future is with ARM, not x86, and not an M1-level RISC-V (if Intel wants to make one)

author: PCB.Wiz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2021, 05:31:01 am
content: Sometimes, offers are made to get the engineering teams and their client streams.There are many strategic benefits to this for Intel.

author: FlyingDutch
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2021, 11:52:18 am
content: Quote from: Sal Ammoniac on June 11, 2021, 11:15:35 pmHi,there is one more possibility: Maybe Intel wants to inhibit development of RISC-V hardware.But this opinion catch on conspiracy theoryBest Regards

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2021, 11:58:35 am
content: It's not a conspiracy theory, it's a completely normal business practice to buy out smaller companies (especially startups) just to inhibit their efforts when seen they could pose a competitive threat but do not fit nicely into the larger buyer company's portfolio. The risk of competition doesn't even need to be very real, this can be done "just in case". It's common and completely legal to do so.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2021, 03:59:00 pm
content: Quote from: FlyingDutch on June 12, 2021, 11:52:18 amThat doesn't make any sense. Intel is not in the segment where RISC-V may become big (embedded and mobile). ARM is more likely to be threatened by RISC-V

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2021, 04:47:51 pm
content: Even if Intel has no direct interest in RISC-V at the moment, they may be considering buying SiFive just to prevent some other company from doing so.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2021, 05:13:32 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on June 12, 2021, 04:47:51 pmAnd then what? RISC-V is open source; any other company can jump in.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2021, 05:15:24 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on June 12, 2021, 05:13:32 pmSure, but at the moment SiFive is a significant driver behind the architecture. And if nobody will actually want to jump in, then RISC-V will go back to its "paper only" status.

author: brucehoult
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2021, 09:53:21 pm
content: Quote from: PCB.Wiz on June 12, 2021, 05:31:01 amBoth have legs, if they don't like the new owner.Founders and other staff with a lot of stock can be made to commit to staying several years as part of getting their (multi) million dollar pay day. There is no leverage over staff who joined too late to get much.

author: brucehoult
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2021, 10:11:37 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on June 12, 2021, 05:13:32 pmThat was actually the best point I've seen.SiFive is getting to the point of having pretty high performance OoO cores -- announced but not shipping yet -- but there are performance numbers from FPGA and simulation. Something in the Pentium Pro, II, III, Pentium M spectrum which Intel after all is still basically just incrementally enhancing now 25 years later. And I think we'll find they have a pretty good vector processing unit too.Nothing that Intel can't duplicate in their sleep if they decide to make a high performance RISC-V implementation, of course.Any other company is of course free to start designing RISC-V cores. But it's a significant amount of work, which companies other than Intel / AMD / IBM / ARM could short-circuit a lot by buying SiFive.Even those companies would get a couple of years head start from acquiring the current designs.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2021, 10:45:56 pm
content: In my mind, such purchase would only make sense if Intel is trying to buy the people's expertise - the IP is open anyways and (hopefully) there is no legal loophole that would lock it.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2021, 10:49:23 pm
content: SiFive's IP is not open. The spec is open, but by buying SiFive you don't "get" the spec in any way.The only reason for Intel to buy them is to remove one of the most significant players in the ecosystem.

author: phil from seattle
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2021, 11:22:48 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on June 12, 2021, 03:59:00 pmPerhaps you missed a more obvious reason. Intel is nowhere in those spaces and they see it as an opportunity to be a leader in yet another market segment. Pretty much how big companies get bigger.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2021, 11:35:18 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on June 12, 2021, 05:13:32 pmIt could be something trivial, we wouldn't think of in a million years. Like they want to use the cores in the management engine for ethernet ports in servers. Or as a core for their 5G modem portfolio.It doesn't have to be steamrolling the market with chips.

author: NorthGuy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2021, 12:36:42 am
content: They just have too much money which has to be spent before it's eaten by the inflation.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2021, 01:17:59 am
content: Quote from: ataradov on June 12, 2021, 10:49:23 pmI read some more. You are correct and I confused the open ISA with the closed implementations from different companies. In this case, I suspect that Intel is buying SiFive for the same reasons it purchased StrongARM: to quickly enter a market they have zero know how. Once they get bored with it, they will sell it just like they did with their SA/XScale to Marvell.

author: brucehoult
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2021, 01:19:39 am
content: Quote from: tszaboo on June 12, 2021, 11:35:18 pmSamsung and Qualcomm already use SiFive RISC-V cores for those purposes. For both the 5G modem and controlling the camera in the high end 2020 Samsung phones (they said so), and I assume but don't know in 2021 also. Same with Qualcomm for 5G.That's a $1 million or $2 million license. No need to spend 1000 times more buying the company.

author: chickenHeadKnob
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2021, 03:06:59 am
content: Quote from: NorthGuy on June 13, 2021, 12:36:42 amDing! Ding! Ding! we have a probable winner. The engineering mindset tends to over-emphasize the engineering aspects of the deal. I think back to the tech stock boom of 1998- 2000 when NorTel was flying high on insane valuations and I tried warning my father to sell them. Under John Roth NorTel was buying up companies left and right while at the same time inflating their order book by subsidizing their customers. Some of the companies purchased made a modicum of sense from the engineering perspective but over-all he was driving NorTel into the ditch.

author: HwAoRrDk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2021, 03:25:19 am
content: I seem to recall some news earlier this year that Intel were planning on opening up their foundries to external customers. What if an acquisition of SiFive is to ensure they have a guinea pig 'customer' to help refine their capability to produce other companies' chips?

author: brucehoult
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2021, 03:42:24 am
content: Quote from: HwAoRrDk on June 13, 2021, 03:25:19 amThat co-operation was announced months ago in March.https://www.sifive.com/blog/sifive-collaborates-with-new-intel-foundry-businessAgain, you can do that without buying them.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2021, 11:14:24 am
content: Quote from: chickenHeadKnob on June 13, 2021, 03:06:59 amBack then, Nortel and so many others were riding on the waves of Arthur Andersen's consulting tips for a successful business, where Enron was the straw that broke the camel's back. Would something similar be taking place twenty years later? Definitely plausible, but Intel does not seem to be in the hot water as these other companies were.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2021, 02:35:11 pm
content: Quote from: brucehoult on June 13, 2021, 01:19:39 amYeah, but synergy and vertical integration and other weasel talk.

author: NorthGuy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2021, 04:22:09 pm
content: Quote from: brucehoult on June 13, 2021, 01:19:39 amIn the times like this?https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/on-small-business/biden-will-need-more-than-52-billion-for-chip-effort/2021/06/09/0f4ebffc-c91b-11eb-8708-64991f2acf28_story.html

author: brucehoult
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2021, 06:44:22 pm
content: Quote from: NorthGuy on June 13, 2021, 04:22:09 pmUgh.Government money always comes with thick and unpleasant strings attached, and as many charlatans as innovators put out their hands for it -- and often spin a better story.

author: Sal Ammoniac
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2021, 05:04:20 pm
content: Quote from: chickenHeadKnob on June 13, 2021, 03:06:59 amTell me about it. I worked for Nortel in that era and at first things were great and lots of people I know were able to buy houses and cars by cashing in stock options. Then the shit started hitting the fan and the stock price started collapsing and the layoffs started. I dumped all of my stock in the summer of 2000 before the plunge started and came out fine, but lots of others didn't and held on to their stock hoping for even more spectacular rises and ended up with nothing (including a job).

author: srce
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2021, 06:00:24 pm
content: Quote from: brucehoult on June 13, 2021, 01:19:39 amWhich cores? E31 list price was $300k royalty free. $1m would be massively over market rate for that class of CPU.No idea how you get a $2bn valuation based on selling a handful of licenses like that each year. If they are making any money, I'd have thought it would have to be selling silicon via OpenFive.

author: brucehoult
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2021, 10:08:45 pm
content: Quote from: srce on June 19, 2021, 06:00:24 pmWhere do you find a price list?I was giving a very generous guess figure to be sure I wasn't understating the cost of a license compared to buying the company.

author: bson
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 19, 2021, 10:35:14 pm
content: Quote from: brucehoult on June 12, 2021, 03:24:05 amUnless SiFive is out of runway and money, they all need new jobs, and Intel is offering this plus a stock swap that vests over four years.Edit: but then $2b is still crazy, but that could just be paper figure. $25m, sure.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2021, 10:46:13 pm
content: I don't have the last figures, but SiFive's annual revenue is roughly $120M from what I got, so that should give an idea.$2B looks pretty over-valued, generally speaking, for a company with this kind of revenue, but still relatively common in this specific area, for a company that is probably still considered a "startup".Certainly buying them just to avoid having to pay for IPs would be rather dumb. Especially since it wouldn't even get costs down to zero; you'd still have to pay for SiFive's operating costs (at least if you keep a significant part of it...)Buying them to get the know-how, well that wouldn't be a good enough reason here either. I don't doubt SiFive's cores are good and that they have a bunch of great engineers, but I doubt it would be worth that much money.So there is inevitably another good reason - as we suggested earlier.

author: srce
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2021, 09:40:08 am
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on June 19, 2021, 10:46:13 pmAny idea what the split is between IP, design services and silicon?

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2021, 04:06:01 pm
content: Quote from: srce on June 20, 2021, 09:40:08 amAbsolutely not. But silicon sales must be a pretty small fraction of it.

author: srce
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2021, 10:16:35 am
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on June 20, 2021, 04:06:01 pmBy silicon sales, I mean stuff done through OpenFive (i.e. what used to be Open Silicon). I would have thought they'd make more revenue through that, than IP licensing.

author: mipl
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: June 22, 2021, 02:52:58 pm
content: https://www.reuters.com/technology/sifive-aims-challenge-arm-with-new-tech-pairs-with-intel-effort-2021-06-22/It should give some more info on to the subject: "SiFive Inc on Tuesday released a new computing chip design that aims to challenge Arm Ltd's dominance in smartphone chips and said it would pair with Intel Corp's factories to make the design available to hardware makers."

author: brucehoult
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2021, 01:13:57 am
content: Horse Creek certainly looks like an interesting project!

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2021, 01:31:14 am
content: Quote from: brucehoult on June 23, 2021, 01:13:57 amWhat is Horse Creek?

author: brucehoult
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2021, 02:46:36 am
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on June 23, 2021, 01:31:14 amIntel 7nm chip / platform using P550 RISC-V cores.https://www.tomshardware.com/news/intel-to-adopt-sifives-new-high-performance-p550-risc-v-cores

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2021, 04:09:49 pm
content: Quote from: brucehoult on June 23, 2021, 02:46:36 amAh yes.I'm really curious about this announced P550. If it's as powerful as they state, then things are going to be interesting.

author: PCB.Wiz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2021, 08:16:20 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on June 23, 2021, 04:09:49 pmYes, it's the info we cannot see that matters here. Intel likely already has test results on the P550 and it's even possible SiFive are somewhat in the loop with core <-> process tuning.At the GHz and nm levels there is a lot of careful 'secret sauce' tuning of the critical paths, and the tight interfacing to peripheral blocks.Cores may get talked about a lot, but the system engineering is very important too.Apple and others will be keen for intel to develop in this direction, & customers that size, make 2B on paper look like chicken feed.

author: brucehoult
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2021, 12:17:24 am
content: Quote from: PCB.Wiz on June 23, 2021, 08:16:20 pmIf the core has been formally announced (which it just was) then that means SiFive have final or near-final (there are always tweaks between announcement and people actually taping-out) RTL running in an FPGA, have booted Linux on it and run SPEC and other benchmarks, and have made the same available to lead customers.Intel absolutely will have FPGAs with P550 running at 50 or 100 MHz or whatever. Possibly quite a bit faster as Intel has the big expensive hardware simulators, while SiFive just uses off-the-shelf FPGA boards such the $7k VCU118 (or Amazon F1 instances using the same FPGA chip).It's still four or so years behind ARM's latest cores, of course, let alone Apple's. And around Core 2 in terms of Intel cores.

author: nudge
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2021, 11:34:18 am
content: Slightly off topic but a friend of mine had an office right next to theirs in San Francisco back in 2016 when they were still getting started. I managed to snap this pic when visiting and walking down the hallway. Amazing to see where they are at now!

author: brucehoult
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2021, 12:51:13 pm
content: Quote from: nudge on June 25, 2021, 11:34:18 amCool! By the time I first visited SiFive in October 2017 (while I was on a business trip from Samsung R&D Moscow to Samsung R&D in San Jose, after we finished what we'd gone to achieve) they were already in the office in San Mateo. There were still only about 20 people. That evening I went to dinner in Berkeley with some of them and other Berkeley folk.The really funny thing was I dragged my team leader from Samsung along with me.My H-1B paperwork five months later said there were 32 employees. By the time I actually got the H-1B and moved to the US there were 500.