[SOLVED-BM867]Hard dilemma: GW121 or Brymen BM867s? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: ov_darkness
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2018, 03:21:10 pm
content: I've done my homework.I really did.After owning Mastech multimeter for about 15 years it's about time to raise a bar.I first thought about gettingUT61Ebecause it's cheap (62EUR), but I'm a little bit afraid about it's safety (altough Mastech has next to none protection and I live). Also, not as many functions as bigger guns.My second contender isBM867. Also inexpensive (152EUR), but it doesn't have all the bells and whistles (and I'm a sucker for that) of more costly brethren. Particularly no temperature measurement.SanwaPC7000 (170EUR)is quite nice, but it lacks protection offered by Brymen Brothers, and one of reviewers said that it's an quite old design. It has temp measurement though.And last, but not least The King -Brymen BM869. It's quite expensive (225EUR)and I'm wondering, if it;s functions compared to Sanwa and 867 are worth extra cost?EDIT: main uses will be electronics (I'm servicing 3D printers at work, and making some electornics project by myself).

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2018, 09:39:42 pm
content: Quote from: ov_darkness on July 23, 2018, 03:21:10 pmIt's less than that:https://brymen.eu/shop/bm869s/Quote from: ov_darkness on July 23, 2018, 03:21:10 pmYes.Quote from: ov_darkness on July 23, 2018, 03:21:10 pmBut you already said you want bellsandwhistles.

author: Terry01
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2018, 09:54:50 pm
content: Get yourself the Brymen 867s and get a cheap IR thermometer to do temp. I have the 867s and use it lots over other meters because I just really like using it!!Hope you end up happy however you go buddy...

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2018, 09:57:36 pm
content: Sanwa used to be a great meter maker, but they seem to have lost their way.

author: Fsck
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2018, 09:59:33 pm
content: Just get an 869 so you don't have feature envy.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2018, 11:32:16 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on July 23, 2018, 09:57:36 pmagree.if i have to make selection between the pc7000, i'll pick good condition used fluke meter..but thats just me.

author: ov_darkness
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2018, 05:51:32 am
content: Thank you all for suggestions!@Fsck has a point: feature envy is badI think I'll go for 869 and just go for cardboard and brick diet for a month

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2018, 08:40:59 am
content: Quote from: ov_darkness on July 25, 2018, 05:51:32 amIt gives you GAS.(seeglossary)

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2018, 08:53:29 am
content: Got an BM867 here. Absolutely love it.UT61E works (I owned one) but it's a pile of crap compared the above.Shop around for Brymen. TME in Poland sell them as well. Not sure if local pricing is better for that. If not try Telonic here in the UK, brymen.eu etc. I got mine from Telonic and it was way cheaper than other resellers.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2018, 08:58:07 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on July 25, 2018, 06:07:42 am"Shouldbe safe"?Either it's safe or it isn't.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2018, 09:05:54 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on July 25, 2018, 08:58:07 amI don't think it's quite as deterministic as that. You've got a relatively low probability of it killing you under normal use on a CAT I circuit IMHO. I've used one extensively on secondary side of mains and on live CAT II circuits before. The provided probes are quite frankly dangerously shit though and if there's a transient, kaboom and the meter itself isn't that great.Really meter safety is only one accident vector you're going to have. There are plenty of other creative ways to kill yourself even with a genuine CAT IV 1000V rated meter. There's no reason not to cover all safety vectors you can though which is why I binned it and got a Keysight unit ages ago, followed by a Brymen.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2018, 10:11:24 am
content: Quote from: bd139 on July 25, 2018, 09:05:54 amYou can probably drive without a seatbelt and live, too. That's not the point.You can have a genuinely safe meter delivered to your house for $45. If you regularly poke at mains electricity then I don't know why you'd try to justify anything less.A FLuke 101 makes a nice secondary meter, too (although the build quality might make a UT61E look bad).

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2018, 10:16:32 am
content: I covered that on the second part of my post which was neatly omitted...

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2018, 12:15:54 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on July 25, 2018, 08:58:07 amNo safety system is ever like that. No safety precaution eliminates the possibility of harm. Heck, the bang from a high quality HRC fuse might shock you into stumbling and falling off a ladder.I've seen fuse holders blow apart, and leave the fuse intact, presumably because people had taken no care about maintaining good contact quality and ensured most of the resistance was in the contacts, rather than the fuse.

author: Specmaster
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2018, 02:28:07 pm
content: Personally, given the selection, I'd go with the 867 (yes I'm biased as I have one) but unless the temperature and the VFD is really important, save your money and get the 867, use the savings at a later date and grab an IR temperature probe to add temp functions to your list of possible measurements.The Sanwa and Brymen 867 / 869 all use the same IC so the capabilities are very similar to each other here and share the same type of PC connection I think but its only the Brymen that a CAT 4 1000v rating making them the safest of the trio.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 25, 2018, 02:40:41 pm
content: Just beware the BM869's size, I find it annoyingly big for normal bench use.

author: Specmaster
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2018, 02:47:58 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on July 25, 2018, 02:40:41 pmIts no bigger than many Fluke meters, I have Fluke 25 and 27 meters and they are almost identical in size so as far as I'm concerned, not an issue, but that extra safety factor of Cat4 is a big bonus.

author: ov_darkness
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2018, 04:14:57 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on July 25, 2018, 02:40:41 pm@EEVblog if I could get your GW121 in Europe for 265AUD, it'd be no contestI have rather large frame and palms, so size is not a problem for meQuote from: Specmaster on July 25, 2018, 02:28:07 pm@Specmaster half decent IR tthermometer costs much more than price difference between 867 and 869.But you're right. I could really use one

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2018, 08:37:07 pm
content: I see blueskull's point. Before I had a UT61E I thought it was a pile of turd according to many reviews around. However, I got one recently with the revised PCB and can say it is quite good for the type of work you mentioned. It is also quite compact for its functions.If you are concerned about safety, Fungus' idea looks quite interesting as well: a Fluke 101 is a very safe meter. Together, both could be had for about the same as a BM867.Brymen's meters are absolutely fantastic, though. Since you are in Poland you can have them shipped to you from tme.eu quite quickly. They have both theBM867and a nice smaller modelBM257S

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2018, 11:00:26 pm
content: I don't know about the safety aspect but the one thing I count on for UNI-T, including the UT61E/D, the stupid little grill starter will kill them every time.The other thing I count on is that Brymen, Fluke and HIOKI know how to make a meter survive a direct discharge to the inputs. Get what you pay for.Quote from: Specmaster on July 25, 2018, 02:47:58 pmTrue, my Gossen Ultra, UNI-T UT121A, TPI 194II are all about that same size. It's not a problem for me. I like the weight and the features of the BM269s. I would never want to drag it around in the field with me, but it would be a bit overkill anyway.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2018, 11:20:54 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on July 25, 2018, 02:40:41 pmI rather like the larger display and printed labels on the BM869. I find the text size on the 121GW dial and display a bit small.

author: ov_darkness
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2018, 12:28:36 pm
content: FUN FACT:Brymen.eu is runned by Polish distributor (Biallwww.biall.com.pl)Price difference on BM867s between their two shops is over 27EUR XDI've reached out to them with a question where it's coming from.@Specmaster do you have any recommendation for Ir thermometer with thermocouple socket and capable of measuring at least 500C?I've found thishttps://www.tme.eu/en/details/testo830-t2/pirometers/testo/testo-830-t2-0560-8312/are there any cheaper options?

author: Specmaster
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2018, 02:34:39 pm
content: Quote from: ov_darkness on July 26, 2018, 12:28:36 pmWhat I use is a handheld infrared thermometer purchased from my local Lidl store a couple of years ago for £19.99. They seem to get these offers a couple of times a year and I see that you are in Poland and you have 525 Lidl stores there so bound to be one near you. It has a range of -50C to +380C which most certainly be high enough for electronic work which is what I use it for, it will show which components are overheating quite quickly and easily.Here is a link to the product details and the manual can be downloaded from the site as well and there are links to similar units as well.https://weekly-offers.co.uk/offer-powerfix-thermometer-at-lidl/

author: ov_darkness
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2018, 09:48:08 am
content: I've decided to go with BM867s and IR thermomether with thermocouple.One last question:Did anyoune used lithium primaries in their DMM's?I've found that:https://www.ultralifecorporation.com/PrivateDocuments/BR_9V_White_Paper.pdffor very reasonable price: 7.5EUR

author: Specmaster
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2018, 10:02:45 am
content: OK, I don't think that you'll be sorry with that combination, 867 really is an awesome meter IR with thermocouple input I know nothing about, mine is pure IR and I've been very happy with that.Lithium battery, I have never considered that I must admit, but mildly curious to know why you feel that is necessary, is it because of having a battery leak? I have never had a 9V battery go leaky on me although I have been told by other members that they have. I have had a quite a few AAA and AA cells go leaky and they can cause an awful amount of damage when that happens but genuinely I have personally experienced any issues with 9V batteries other then them going flat with age.

author: Terry01
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2018, 10:22:25 am
content: Quote from: ov_darkness on August 03, 2018, 09:48:08 amNice 1! I'll second you won't be unhappy with your new meter. I use lithium in my 289 & 867s and also my DE-5000. They all work exactly the same as with normal 9v or AA's. The only thing I would say is watch the shape of the 9v. The one I use in my 867s was for my DE-5000 but the battery was completely square and would not fit the DE-5000 but fits the Brymen no probs so I had to bet another for my DE-5000. The battery was exactly the same otherwise but the square corners were a no go for the DE-5000.If you want I can check for you which make will fit your 867s?Enjoy your new meter!

author: Specmaster
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2018, 10:29:31 am
content: Quote from: Terry01 on August 03, 2018, 10:22:25 am@Terry01, I'm not entirely sure I follow what you was saying here about the Lithium battery not fitting, surely if it's a PP3 equivalent then it should fit anything that a PP3 fits? Am I missing something here, it makes zero sense to me to produce something that will only fit a few products that have more generous battery compartments??Do you find your 289 a heavy user of batteries? Martin Lorton said that on his video channel and was one of the reasons why he also got himself a 867.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2018, 11:18:52 am
content: Quote from: ov_darkness on August 03, 2018, 09:48:08 amOne year ago I had a 25 year old Sanwa DMM in near new condition. 6 months ago I had a 25.5 year old Sanwa DMM totally devastated by leaking alkaline batteries. Right now, the use of a lithium battery in something where the battery isn't changed very often sounds really good to me.

author: Davy
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2018, 11:36:56 am
content: I Got the Greenlee DM867A I that's the same as the Bryman. Only one caveat, be sure you get the 'A' version, the DM867 versions have poor backlighting. Saw a comparison somewhere between the Fluke 179, the DM867A had slightly better accuracy, obviously Flukes are better built regarding internal flashover.Use Duracell in mine.Dave

author: ov_darkness
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2018, 11:40:55 am
content: @Specmaster: regarding lithium primaries, we have a saying here in Poland: why dog is licking his balls? Because he can ;PTBH: I really don't like alkaline and NiMH. I almost exclusively use li-ion's for all my stuff.Lithium primaries have much higher voltage stability, higher capacity. They work in huge range of temperatures and won't leak.Actually, their only downside is price, but I can live with that.IR meter I've chosen is Velleman DEM102 (70EUR). It measures up to 500C (in high end FDMs you have nozzle temps higher than 350C), have little bit btter optics than standard: 13:1There's also more expensive model DEM103 (111EUR) with 30:1 optics.As nozzles of FDM printers are less than 1cm it'd be nice to have good optics.Thermocouple is quite interesting for me, as I could test if thermistors/PT100's/thermocouples in printers are not shot.Also, I can stick it in SLS chamber and check if pyrometers are measuring right.Or just shine some fancy lasers on a flor and watch my cats go wild XD

author: Specmaster
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2018, 11:47:32 am
content: Hmm, maybe then all batteries carry a risk of some sort, is it not true that Lithium batteries can also catch fire, there was an airliner recently where a mobile phone battery caught fire that caused an on board emergency?

author: ov_darkness
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2018, 12:34:42 pm
content: Lithium primaries (most common ones LiMnO2, LiFeS2)are very stable. There are some chemistries though that are sometimes used, and can be dangerous if shorted (LiSOCl2)Some lithium rechargeables (LiCoO2) can be quite unstable when damaged, pierced, or overcharged. Other like LiFePO4 are very, very stable.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2018, 12:44:19 pm
content: Quote from: Davy on August 03, 2018, 11:36:56 amThe DM867A is the same as the BM857S. I agree on the terrible backlight on the non-A (or S) version - I have a BM857.Otherwise, they are excellent meters.The Fluke 179 wins over the BM857/859 (I also had a 179) in both build quality and specifications, but the BM867/869 win at least in specifications: they are tested to higher CAT ratings. I can't talk about build quality as I don't have one of these models.

author: Davy
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 04, 2018, 12:15:57 am
content: I think this is the video Brymen v Fluke.... there's loads of em' popped up.http://www.mjlorton.com/multimeter-review-buyers-guide-comparison-brymen-tbm867-vs-fluke-87-v/

author: Specmaster
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 04, 2018, 12:35:52 am
content: Quote from: Davy on August 03, 2018, 11:36:56 amI think you will find that is not quite right, IIRC the Fluke failed the transient tests at somewhere around 4 to 5KV but the Brymen went right upto 13KV which is in excess of its specification which is another reason for it being Martin's favorite meter.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 04, 2018, 01:44:35 am
content: Quote from: Specmaster on August 04, 2018, 12:35:52 amDave, what exactly do you mean by "better built regarding internal flashover"? If you mean a physical integrity of its enclosure during this event, then there is a strong possibility the 179 is, in fact, better than the Brymen/Greenlee. If you mean internal circuitry integrity, then Specmaster's reference indicates the opposite.All in all, just keep in mind that a premature failure in joeqsmith's transient tests only tells part of the story and does not mean an overall greater robustness.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 04, 2018, 02:04:57 am
content: I never ran a Fluke 179 or the DM867A. If only there was a spreadsheet that had this information.

author: Specmaster
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 04, 2018, 02:37:13 am
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on August 04, 2018, 02:04:57 amCorrect, IIRC it was the Fluke 287 and the Brymen BM869 (which is the same as BM867 but with temperature).

author: Muxr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 04, 2018, 02:59:26 am
content: Quote from: Specmaster on July 25, 2018, 02:47:58 pmFluke 25 and 27 are also unusually large multi-meters. They are tanks though.

author: Specmaster
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 04, 2018, 03:15:47 am
content: Quote from: Muxr on August 04, 2018, 02:59:26 amTrue, but so are Fluke 287 and Fluke 289 which is what was used in some of those tests.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 04, 2018, 10:25:26 am
content: Quote from: Specmaster on August 04, 2018, 02:37:13 amI never ran a Fluke 287 or the Brymen BM869. If only there was a spreadsheet that had this information.

author: Specmaster
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 04, 2018, 10:57:41 am
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on August 04, 2018, 10:25:26 amI have watched an awful amount of your superb videos along with a load Martin Lorton's videos and you both feature in loads of videos the BM869 and I thought that you had also ran tests on the Fluke 289, but I'm currently unable to locate that video so maybe I was getting that confused with Martin's video where he most certainly has featured it. You have though featured the Fluke 189 which is the 289 predecessor.Here are links to just some of your many videos where the BM869 is featured.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 04, 2018, 11:06:02 am
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on August 04, 2018, 10:25:26 amI haven't confirmed Specmaster's information when I posted earlier, but there is no entry for a 179 and two entries for the BM869S, which may be a completely different meter when compared to the non-S version.

author: Specmaster
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 04, 2018, 11:14:59 am
content: Quote from: rsjsouza on August 04, 2018, 11:06:02 amI have never seen any mention of any other versions of the BM867s or the BM869s which seem to be universally shortened to just 867 and 869, here is a link directly their website and their range of multimeters and it only lists 867s and 869s as you can verify.https://brymen.eu/product-category/multimetry/EDIT'I have seen mention on this forum about version A and version S and that was in relation to the backlight but I have yet to see any mention of the A or any other version apart from the S on any official Brymen publication.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 04, 2018, 12:08:41 pm
content: I have performed several tests on the Brymen BM869S. The previous version was obsolete before I bought mine. I had contacted Brymen about the differences after having been asked so many times. That's been some time ago but I did post their response.I did borrow a friend's Fluke 289 to use as a comparable with the UNI-T UT181A. While I show the the boot times, screen update rates, font sizes, menus and such, everything was non-destructive which is why it is not listed in my spreadsheet.As far as the 13KV comment, assuming it was in regards to the BM869s, if you look at the spreadsheet you would find that I went from having it pass at 5.9KV to failing at 13KV. No testing was performed between these two levels. Of course if I attach a meter to a 1.5V AAA battery and it survives and then attach it to a 100KV, 100KA source and it fails, you could say the meter didn't fail until 100KV but it would be VERY misleading. People made these types of comments with other meters as well. In the case the the BM869s, if you look at the spreadsheet or watch the videos, Brymen provided me a second one for a switch life cycle test that I wanted to run. I repeated the transient tests on this meter using finer increments. It was damaged at 10KV. The same components had failed. I picked some other parts to use that were a drop-in and repeated the tests but that data was never recorded in the spreadsheet.From the Fluke side of things, there was only that one outlier. That was a very old 87V. To this day I have no clue as to why that meter behaved so poorly. I did a full video where I took that meter back apart and show all the repairs, make a model of it and eventually repeat the tests. Besides that failure, every Fluke I have looked at has survived beyond the levels the new generator can apply. In other words, more electrically robust than the AMPROBE AM510 that was the runner up in my original tests.Again, its all documented. There's no need to guess what was done or how the meters performed.

author: Specmaster
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 04, 2018, 12:32:09 pm
content: AFAIK we are all talking about the BM869s and BM867s as this is the current meter being sold by the vendors and Brymen alike and is the very meter the OP is I believe looking to purchase. I'm totally unaware of amy earlier version of either of these meters and so all my discussions are based purely upon the current production models. At no point in your video did I recall you mentioning that you stopped testing the BM869s at 5.9KV and then ran a randem test at 13KV where upon it failed, in fact your video seemed to impart that the meter passed all the tests on the transients and only failed at 13KV, there was no mention otherwise, so that was very misleading.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 04, 2018, 01:02:30 pm
content: Quote from: Specmaster on August 04, 2018, 12:32:09 pmI am not sure how your inability to comprehend what you are watching or reading becomes misleading on my part. The tests that are not ran are marked NT (Not Tested). The spreadsheet clearly shows no testing was performed between these two levels.If you had followed along you would know that the 13KV level that the original BM869s failed at was not some random test as you put it. If you cherry pick parts of the videos or only have watched a few of them, you may not have that history. Still the spreadsheet along does give a very good clue at to what happened when you compare the first set of tests against all of the later ones.

author: Specmaster
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 04, 2018, 05:02:07 pm
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on August 04, 2018, 01:02:30 pmWhile I’m a subscriber to your excellent channel, along with a plethora of other channels, I discovered your videos on the Brymen BM689s as a direct result of doing a google search for reviews and information on the Brymen BM867/869 series of meters because I was thinking about purchasing one. This is how many of us today make purchasing decisions and in that particular video you just mentioned that it had failed at 13KV. I had also watched previously some of your excellent videos where you had for the sake of clarity and to keep the audience with you had either speeded up the transient testing followed by functional testing after each cycle of 5 transients in both the +ve and -ve cycles in the various meter modes, or cut some of the stages out during the editing process to keep the video length down to an acceptable length.The information that I gleaned from that video, and I suspect many people except ardent followers of all your videos, would have assumed what I did because we have been conditioned over the years of TV and cinema alike to automatically fill in the blanks to complete the story which has to be condensed down to certain length.I was not aware of the existence of the spreadsheet until today since you mentioned it, I went in search of it, and yes it does in fact show that the 869 had not been subjected to same tests as many of the others had been (was there a particular reason for this by the way?)This is why I said that the information presented in the video was misleading, not in any suggesting that it was anything else other than purely accidental.Anyway, you, Martin and a few others on YT helped me to make up my own mind that the meter was indeed very worthy of being purchased and I’m extremely happy with my purchase just I’m very happy with my Flukes but to get a Fluke with the same capabilities of the 867 would have meant that I was looking at having to invest at least double what the 867 cost me so it was a no brainer for me.The meter must still continue to impress you and the other video bloggers as you all still use it as reference point to compare other meters by in videos being produced now, and that again speaks volumes about the overall quality of the meter, a cheap and nasty DT830B it is not.Perhaps if I could make a suggestion here as a consumer of your product, might it be an idea to include a reference to where the spreadsheet for further in depth information can be found added into your usual signing off on a video, maybe a as an on screen annotation at the end?

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 04, 2018, 06:21:30 pm
content: Quote from: Specmaster on August 04, 2018, 05:02:07 pmIt's not really much of a product. I'm not making any money from it. The complete opposite actually.I add the link to the FAQ and spreadsheet to the descriptions now. It's always been in the very first post of thread I started way back when that covers these tests. It's also linked in the About menu off my main page.Yes, there was a reason the first BM859s was tested this way. It was the same reason that I skipped all of the levels on the UT139C and the Fluke 87V that people were so emotional about.Old story compressing three years into a few paragraphs..Early on I played around with some damaged meters I had ran to get a feel for what sort of levels would be required to damage a meter. I then bought the first set of $50 and under class meters and designed a generator to run them. Every time the meters would survive, I would have to redesign and construct the generator to increase the transient. By the time I was down to only two meters, the AMPROBE AM510 and the Fluke 101, the generator had been rebuilt several times. After the AMPROBE was damaged, I continued to push the Fluke 101 to see just how much it could handle. I made it to 12KV. There was a member on this site that had been following the thread and videos that had access to an actual IEC combo generator. They were very interested in seeing if the Fluke 101 would actually survive at these level on a commercial generator. After they disclosed their intent, I wanted to make sure the 101 was not on the edge. So I pushed the levels to 13KV with a 100us FWHH using the 2ohm source, knowing they were going to test at 12KV 50us FWHH. The 101 survived both of our independent tests.Fast forward to the second set of meters donated by 5KY. You have no idea how much effort it was to run that first set of meters. There was no way I wanted to repeat that and now that I had some idea on what I needed to expose the meters to, I set out to design a programmable transient generator with the sole purpose to stress the meter's input stages to failure. I did not want to use any of the parts from the original generator in case I ever wanted to go back and repeat that high level test. I set the upper limit of this generator based on where the AMPROBE AM510 was damaged from the first set. Assuming any meter that survives to that level is going to be fairly robust, electrically.The BM869s was part of that second set. I ran it along with all the other meters. In the end, there were only two meters alive. The Brymen, and the Fluke 107. I was in communications with Brymen throughout the tests. I made them aware it had survived and that I was thinking to expose it to the same levels that the Fluke 101 had been tested to. They were very interested in seeing this test ran. Something I continue to see with Brymen. They know the meters are on a level playing field with me and they will willing to show what they have. Anyway, they actually offer to replace/repair the meter if I damage it. So I run the test on both the 107 and BM869s. The 107 survived and the BM869s was damaged.People wanted to know how close the BM869s was to the Flukes. I had already repeated testing on the UNI-T UT139C for this same reason and decided to go back and modify the original transient generator to give it some means to be programmed. After this, I started running meters at even higher levels. It became apparent that there were companies that knew how to make very robust meters and others that were left in the dust.There was a lot of chat on this site from the Fluke fanboys about how the 87V would out live the BM879s. The general thought was, time will tell. I wanted to accelerate this so I started thinking about how to life cycle the selector switches. I spoke with Brymen about running a life cycle test on the BM869s. I showed them what I was doing and they were all in. They sent me, free of charge a new BM869s to run this test on. The meter held up very well to this test. Dare I say second only to the Fluke 17B+ I had tested. Yes, I will.When it was all done, I decided to take that same meter which at that time had not been exposed to any transient tests and decided to repeat the testing at the higher levels to get a better idea how it would perform. Eventually I damaged the meter but again, I was able to repair it. The failure was the same as the original meter. just some leaking parts in the high speed clamp. So I hunted down what I thought would handle these stress levels and made another video where I modified the meter using them and proceeded to push the meter even further. None of that is documented in the spreadsheet but the video is still on-line.I do continue to use/abuse both meters and they continue to be my all time favorite handheld meter and I have looked at a lot of meters. And that is the story of the BM869s.

author: Specmaster
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 04, 2018, 07:10:39 pm
content: The fact that you made so abundantly clear that they were your favorite meters (as have Martin and a few others) was a big factor in my decision that I ought to have one. I don't have a need for VFD or temperature so the 867 was the logical selection for me seeing as Brymen put both the 869 and 867 at the top of their tree in terms of specification etc, not price, and that the 867 is essentially identical bar those 2 range swaps steered me towards the 867.Having already gained a few Fluke 25's and 27's along the way I was leaning in that direction and the top of their range is at least 2 to 3 times the price of the Brymens. Also knowing how Brymen were willing to actively assist in your testing demonstrated that this was a company that was determined to make a better and more affordable product and there are plenty of more expensive and or more established brands who would not have been anywhere near as willing to cooperate. I'm perfectly sure that if you spotted any areas of weakness and or could make any suggestion on how to improve their robustness etc that they would take it on board and design the improvements into their products.Speaking of products, you are actually producing a product of sorts and it is a very valuable source of information and I'm sure is very much appreciated by many forum members. Especially since almost all the dedicated electronics magazines have joined the dinosaurs, where else can the electronics engineer / hobbyist etc get totally unbiased opinions and information to assist them in making the best and most informed decisions on their meter purchases?So yes, please continue to do what you do best, produce high quality videos pitting meters against meters, because what you also do is to keep manufacturers on their toes knowing that people like you exist is preventing them from resting on their laurels and relying on their name to carry them forwards by default.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 04, 2018, 08:06:36 pm
content: Quote from: Specmaster on August 04, 2018, 07:10:39 pmprod·uctˈprädəkt/nounnoun: product; plural noun: products1. an article or substance that is manufactured or refined for sale."marketing products and services"I don't see ever enabling ads or asking for donations. Not to say that others have not tried to make a profit off of my efforts.Any opinions I provide on handheld meters would most certainly be biased anymore based upon the data I have collected. I can't ignore that Brymen, Fluke, HIOKI, Gossen know how to make very robust meters.I don't think the work has really had much of an effect. The channel is small and most people I would say don't see the value in testing products like these to failure.

author: Specmaster
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 04, 2018, 08:20:50 pm
content: Many moons ago I worked for an electrical accessory manufacturer here in the UK who believed in doing just that with their products to ensure that they continued to make and sell the finest electrical wiring accessories possible. They took the pursuit of perfection right down to making their own contact springs, terminal screws etc, in house to ensure that the finest quality was maintained. As long as they could source suitable raw materials, they were beholding to no-one and they also made a range on industrial motor control equipment and their biggest competitor in the electrical world used their controls in their factories.

author: pilotchup
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 04, 2018, 08:33:42 pm
content: I have been in a similar situation as the OP. I decided on the BM869 and have been in love with it. Such a darn good multimeter, haven't looked back since.

author: Specmaster
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2018, 06:19:45 pm
content: Quote from: pilotchup on August 04, 2018, 08:33:42 pmAmen to that, it and my Flukes are the best handheld meters I have, as the Flukes are only 3.5 digit meters, guess which is my goto meter

author: ov_darkness
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2018, 12:38:24 pm
content: Dear Colleagues, I have another problem:https://www.welectron.com/EEVBlog-121GW-Data-Logging-Multimeter-with-BluetoothI've not took this meter under consideration before, but it's now available just behind the hill (only few hours a german tank ;P ).Is it worth paying 80EUR extra?I really like an option to display live measurements on my Android/PC.

author: Specmaster
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2018, 12:57:52 pm
content: Quote from: ov_darkness on August 08, 2018, 12:38:24 pmPersonally, no, the meter is considerably smaller, 4.5 digits only I think and is overly complicated internally as per Joe's video on this meter (although it was a pre-production one I believe) and if you really want to be able to read the display on your PC, there is the add-on for the Brymen 867/869 which only about half the extra you would pay for the GW121, but the Brymen will not work with bluetooth so you will need to take into consideration.Is the GW121 worth considering, I would thing so, I cannot imagine Dave putting his name to a product that was in any way inferior, that said though have a look on this forum the thread on this GW121 meter and the problems people have reported so far.This is don't forget a product that has only recently been released and as with any new product, there will be some issues and it is the early adopters who will suffer those problems and also remember that it is firmware upgradeable so there is a good chance that these bugs would be rectified with the release of new firmware which I think there has been a number of updates so far.Personally, I'm extremely happy with the Brymen BM867 it does everything I want it to and does it well, even agreeing with the reading I get with my 5.5 digit bench meters, one of which I calibrated personally so its very gratifying to have that calibration confirmed.

author: exe
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 08, 2018, 02:51:46 pm
content: I have two 121GW and almost never used them as they are simply inconvenient (slow, buggy, etc). I was hooked on advanced features 121GW has, but turned out, never used any of them. On the other side, slow autorange, slow update rate (it's nowhere near advertised 5 updates/s), resistance only goes up to 50M, low Z doesn't work below 12V, cannot display AC and DC (AC+DC mode is super slow and cannot show AC and DC separately)... There are many other issues of lesser importance which I just don't remember because I don't use the meters. So, last 5 months my meters collect dust while I'm using ut61e and aneg 8002. I think I'll sell one 121GW and buy 869s.

author: Specmaster
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2018, 07:35:12 pm
content: Quote from: exe on August 08, 2018, 02:51:46 pmI don't think you'll be disappointed with either 867 or 869, are a really nice meter, fast and reliable and have a real heft to them so they will stay put on the bench right where you put them.

author: coromonadalix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2018, 08:23:11 pm
content: Without a doubt go for Brymen Im sorry to say the 121gw is not mature, has bugs, totally turned off by it.Or find some used reliable models too

author: Specmaster
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2018, 08:34:12 pm
content: Quote from: coromonadalix on August 08, 2018, 08:23:11 pmI'm pretty sure that 121GW will get the problems resolved in due course though, that's the beauty of it being upgradable by the user via downloads once they have the code sorted. The Brymen on the other hand is now a well tried and tested product and does not disappoint.

author: exe
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 08, 2018, 08:50:34 pm
content: Quote from: Specmaster on August 08, 2018, 08:34:12 pmI've been waiting for about 8 months or so... Also people say not everything can be fixed in software.The good thing they still try to make firmware better, the bad is there is little to no communication. Not even single comment from the manufacturer. I don't know what problems they are working on and if/when they fix them. I like transparency.

author: Specmaster
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2018, 09:15:01 pm
content: Quote from: exe on August 08, 2018, 08:50:34 pmI was thinking about getting a 121GW but after watching on line videos of it and the Brymen, I went the Brymen 867 because so many of the video bloggers use either the 869 or 867 as their goto meter and many of them also have 121GW's so it was clear it was as good as Dave says it. Never a good idea to be among the first with any new product, as they nearly always have issues to be resolved and cars are a very good example of this.

author: Fsck
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2018, 09:20:04 pm
content: Quote from: exe on August 08, 2018, 02:51:46 pmI've been using my 121GW as a bluetooth tea thermometer.

author: Specmaster
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2018, 10:04:57 pm
content: You guys with these 121GW's, I feel your pain. If it was a el cheapo meter then you could forgive it a bit but it isn't cheap by any means and after shelling out that many AUS$ you expect that dammed thing to work rather well .

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2018, 10:08:10 pm
content: Quote from: Specmaster on August 08, 2018, 10:04:57 pmI think we knew what we were getting in to (or should have). A brand new product, with unique features not seen before in other meters, and no opportunity for product shakedown and stabilization. The risks were there from the outset.

author: Specmaster
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2018, 10:19:47 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on August 08, 2018, 10:08:10 pmI have to agree with you, this is why I was looking for other peoples experiences with it first and as a result of that research I came across the Brymen 867/869 meters and switched horses as a direct result of what I discovered. With any new product, and especially one as complicated as this and such a groundbreaking one, there is a host of differences between small limited prototyping product which are almost hand made and a full blown production run in volumes, always was and always will be.

author: Bratster
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2018, 01:59:39 am
content: What's the average price for an 867/869 in the US?I did some quick looking and they seem to be not super prevalent. Or I'm blind.Sent from my Fi Moto x4 using Tapatalk

author: coromonadalix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2018, 02:11:09 am
content: around 250$ usd thru ebayfor an 869s ?? but not usa based, found nothing near usa

author: Specmaster
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2018, 02:31:03 am
content: You could try herewww.telonic.co.ukand see if they do export at all?I got mine from them (867s) for £129.60, inclusive of VAT and delivery, it was all sealed and brand new with a 3 year warranty.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2018, 02:42:40 am
content: Brymen does not have representation in the US. You can, however, get either from tme.eu or the Greenlee DM860A.

author: Bratster
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2018, 04:27:20 am
content: ThanksSent from my Fi Moto x4 using Tapatalk

author: Candid
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2018, 05:15:06 am
content: You can order fromhttps://www.welectron.com/Brymen-BM869s-Multimeter_1and it will cost about $245 (without bag) including shipping with 6 - 12 days delivery by DHL or faster 1 - 2 day delivery by UPS for about +$5 to the USA. You can get Brymen original accessory for low price from Welectron too. E.g. the magnetic holder and all the other nice things.PS: I like the 121GW even if it is not perfect but it is way of being such bad like some here want to make us believe. I like my Fluke, Brymen and some others of my about 35 year old museum too and everyone of my exhibits has things I like and I dislike or bugs. What I especially like with the 121GW is the community around and the support form the "Dave brothers" ;-) and the feature/form factor. What I'm worried about is that one day there will be a hardware revision and then the early adopters may be hung with updates. Bottom line today I would recommend a Brymen because of the price/quality factor.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2018, 08:10:47 am
content: Quote from: Bratster on August 09, 2018, 01:59:39 amI got mine from tme.eu. It was a good price and delivered to the USA in about a week.

author: Doctorandus_P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2018, 03:55:02 pm
content: I do not understand why this is a dilemma, the meters are quite different, so what are your needs?I see the Brymen as an accurate, reliable and proven design.I see the 121GW as a very interesting meter with lots of functionality (Bluetooth, uSD data logging, 12Vdiode test, and more) which makes it an unique meter in the market.I almost bought it because I like the openness of the (hardware) design and a lot of those (gadgety) features.I was held back by the bugs and closed firmware, which means an extra delay of a year or so before there is an open source firmware available which works reliably for basic features and can be tweaked for custom stuff.A funktion I'd like for example is current measurements with external shunts, and the meter can be programmed to callibrate itself with those shunts.Then I sat back and scratched my back.If I buy a DMM in that price range it will be the most expensive (and accurate) meter in my collection.It would be my personal reference, and for that reliability and proven design are the most important features for me and I would definately buy the Brymen before the EEVblog meter, even though the Brymen is a lot bigger, which I don't like. I live in a small appartment, and size of stuff is always a consideratiion when buying stuff.

author: Specmaster
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2018, 05:17:39 pm
content: Quote from: Doctorandus_P on August 09, 2018, 03:55:02 pmQuite right, the Brymen is now a well established brand and the 869/867 range has been out for some time now so has been fully tested in all kinds of conditions so should not hold any nasty surprises for anyone as they would have been filtered out and resolved by now.The 121GW is a very unique meter and has lots of bells and whistles is true but are they truly useful or just toys that only a few people will actually find useful?The Brymen is a big meter but it also has a lot of bells and whistles over most of the competitors and it also has a lot of good important safety protection systems built in and also has CATIV 1,000V and that requires some space to accommodate the hardware and clearances etc required to achieve that high rating.As far as I was concerned and still for that matter, there was only ever 1 meter that was going to win my money, and incidentally is still the same today, the Brymen. Don't get me wrong, I'd still like a 121GW once it has been fully tested and proven and all the glitches resolved, it would make a very useful addition to any bench, but the decision to go with the Brymen was made even easier as it was and still is the only one that is currently available as the 121GW is still out of stock and I suspect that is because they are still working hard to resolve some issues with it.Lastly but not least is the bang per buck, the Brymen can take on the other big heavyweights in the world of meters and either win outright or at least match what the some of the others are offering but an area where it is in a class of its own is value for money, it can do all those things for fraction of the price of many of the others, some of which are almost 3 times the price.

author: M4x
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2018, 06:31:15 pm
content: The 121GW isn't out of stock:https://www.welectron.com/EEVBlog-121GW-Data-Logging-Multimeter-with-Bluetooth

author: Specmaster
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2018, 06:38:42 pm
content: Quote from: M4x on August 09, 2018, 06:31:15 pmWell I guess it depends on where you go, I checked here, the most logical place first I would have thoughthttps://www.eevblog.com/product/121gw/

author: M4x
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2018, 09:12:22 pm
content: I did the same and ordered there last time it was in stock. The meter is stuck somewhere in transit... Didn't know about the other distributer at that time.

author: Specmaster
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2018, 09:50:43 pm
content: Quote from: M4x on August 09, 2018, 09:12:22 pmHave you been given a dispatch date etc then or are assuming that its stuck in transit? I take it the "out of stock" notice could mean 1 of 2 things, 1/ It has been temporarily suspended from sale because they are having getting parts or a problem has arisen and they are engineering a why out of it, or, 2, Dave no longer sells this direct but relies on Amazon USA and Welectron in Germany but hasn't said so directly on his own site?

author: Terry01
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2018, 08:51:16 pm
content: Quote from: Specmaster on August 09, 2018, 06:38:42 pmSome mark up! 40 quid! That's near quarter of the price of the meter again, Greedy cunts!!

author: Specmaster
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2018, 09:02:27 pm
content: What's that..only 0.05% dc accuracy?, the BM867 is 0.03%

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2018, 09:17:08 pm
content: Quote from: Specmaster on August 10, 2018, 09:02:27 pmThat's worst case. It doesn't seem bad in practice though:

author: Specmaster
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2018, 09:31:32 pm
content: stick the 867 on 500,00 count mode and you'll get an extra digit

author: bugi
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2018, 09:37:31 pm
content: Quote from: Terry01 on August 10, 2018, 08:51:16 pmNot sure if you were serious or not... But 300 AUD (excluding GST i.e. taxes) is about equal to 191.80EUR (excluding VAT i.e. taxes).. welectron sells at 200.84€ (excluding taxes).. I'd think about 9 euros can be considered decent enough markup.Or were you referring to the government (which gets the VAT of about 40 euros) with that "Greedy cunts"? Or the population and companies of the country who gets (share of) the benefits from that tax, eventually?

author: M4x
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2018, 10:01:05 pm
content: Dave had only a limited amount of meters available.I've got a tracking number. Dispatch: July 27Since August 1 "Arrived at transit facility" (Frankfurt).

author: Specmaster
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2018, 10:41:14 pm
content: Quote from: M4x on August 10, 2018, 10:01:05 pmWhere is the final destination? I've had similar things on items from China and next thing I know is that the postman or courier is knocking on the door with it in his hand. Sometimes the true status does not get updated until after its delivered, which begs the question as to why?

author: M4x
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2018, 10:45:40 pm
content: The final destination is Hamburg.

author: Specmaster
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2018, 10:52:16 pm
content: Do you think that Customs may have intercepted it for import duty to be paid?

author: Specmaster
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2018, 10:55:34 pm
content: I'd like to have your findings / feelings about this 121GW once you get it and have had some time to play with it because I still have not kicked it out contention yet, I could do with a decent meter that was smaller and more capable then my other stalwarts the Flukes 27.

author: M4x
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 11, 2018, 06:53:07 pm
content: Could be but after 10 days I would like to get a letter telling me to pick it up or something like that...I can compare the meter with my Gossen Metrahit One Plus. Maybe PM me in a few weeks ;-)

author: Specmaster
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 11, 2018, 07:18:06 pm
content: Quote from: M4x on August 11, 2018, 06:53:07 pmI will do that for sure, I watched Joes video where he had a Gossen Metrahit, not too sure which model it was off the top of my head, but I have to say that considering the price and the stories I had heard about prior to the video, I was not in the slightest little bit impressed by them. I got the impression that they were trading on maybe past history.

author: ov_darkness
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 11, 2018, 08:07:36 pm
content: Quote from: Doctorandus_P on August 09, 2018, 03:55:02 pmBoth have similar specs, similar price.121GW is less reliable, but much smaller and has much more features.I always take size into account because my EDC backpack is rarely less than 10kg, and I sometimes have to carry meter, and soldering station (ZD916).I don't have space at home for even small electronics lab, I use my living room table when I need to so I need to take WAF into account.This is why I consider highly experimental and somewhat unreliable 121GW.

author: M4x
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2018, 09:15:13 am
content: Quote from: Specmaster on August 11, 2018, 07:18:06 pmThe meter just arrived! Unfortunately, I don't have time to take a closer look at it right now.Max

author: Specmaster
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2018, 10:50:02 am
content: So it looks like it was a case of the tracking info not being updated after all then. Enjoy the new meter and I'm sure that I'm not the only person eagerly awaiting your verdict on it.

author: M4x
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2018, 04:01:38 pm
content: It looks like it. I'm excited myself ;-)

author: Specmaster
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2018, 04:16:00 pm
content: And so you should be, you just got yourself a whole new toy to play with

author: Terry01
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 16, 2018, 08:20:47 am
content: Quote from: bugi on August 10, 2018, 09:37:31 pmNope, I was deadly serious!300 aud = 171 quid! 238 euros = 210 quid! 40 quids difference = greedy cunts! I used online calculators so I take it they are close enough?

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 16, 2018, 09:08:38 am
content: At some point I am hoping to have these in stock too but have not discussed pricing with Dave. I generally try to match Dave's prices (I am not VAT registered so it does give me a potential 20% advantage).

author: Gromitt
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 16, 2018, 09:30:46 am
content: Quote from: Terry01 on August 16, 2018, 08:20:47 am300 AUD excludes VAT, 239 € is including VAT so it is not 40 £ difference.For me in Sweden it is actually cheaper from Weletron (not by much, but still).

author: bugi
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 16, 2018, 09:39:45 am
content: Quote from: Terry01 on August 16, 2018, 08:20:47 amYour online conversion calculations are correct, but you calculated them from values that are not comparable to each other.I thought I already hinted that in my previous message, but, lets put it more clearly. It seems you are comparing australianWITHOUT-taxprice to europeanWITH-taxprice. You can't do that unless you intend to break law (and/or expect the european merchant to break law). If you order that 300aud australian thing (from australia), you end up (or at least should, if obeying laws) paying that missing tax (VAT in EU) some time during or after the import process, so that 300 AUD (without tax) price is not valid comparison point to 238 EUR (includes 19% VAT for the merchant's country). You must compare either the 300AUD to 200.84EUR (both values without tax), or, 300AUD + your local VAT (seems to be 20%, so total 360AUD) to the 239 EUR (includes 19%). The latter comparison would give 360AUD=205.74GBP vs. 239EUR=213.72GBP.That was only about comparing prices; in EU as a consumer you should end up paying some VAT to some government at some point of purchase/import, no matter what, so you might as well compare the with-tax prices to give you a better idea of the total price you'd need to pay in the end.If importing by yourself, remember shipping costs and that you pay VAT for those shipping costs, too. (If shipping is marked as "free", customs typically roll a dice for some credible shipping cost to calculate the VAT for.) And possible customs, typically somewhere between 0% and 4%. And if it gets shipped with one of those (really greedy) shipping companies that want like 20-40€ fees for the near-zero customs paperwork they do for you (or even if they do not do it for you), add that to the total. Welectron seems to provide free shipping to great britain and since it is already in EU, no customs for you (welectron has paid the customs already, and baked them into that selling price shown), and the (really greedy) shipping companies can't extort any extra fees from you. So, assuming 0% customs, luckily no extra fees to shipping company, and "rolling" a 10AUD shipping cost (cheap, I'd say) it would actually be closer to, 370AUD vs. 239EUR, i.e. 211.45GBP vs. 213.72GBP. All those considered (cheap shipping, no extra fees, no customs included), Welectron starts to look possibly the cheaper source...(Oh, if the brexit hits hard enough, you'd be "importing" even from welectron. Customs, extra fees, etc even for orders from there...)Note, about 37€ of that welectron price (the VAT share of the full price) goes to government, not to welectron. So, at least welectron is not greedy. If you want to enjoy the benefits from your government (like education, healthcare, security/safety, etc. however crappy or good they might be), but not pay taxes, then you're the greedy ... something.

author: Terry01
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 16, 2018, 09:52:49 am
content: I made a simple mistake not understanding something I have never seen before. You could have just pointed that out instead of a big waffle trying to make yourself look more intelligent than you actually are. A sign of something or other that is you know?I made a simple mistake and I am honest in saying so. I stand corrected.There are some real slippery ones on here too who are not honest though. Telling tales and stuff. LolWhat a turkey! 🤥

author: M4x
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 16, 2018, 10:12:34 am
content: I think bugi explained the matter very friendly. You were the one who was a little bit over the top.

author: Candid
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 16, 2018, 10:58:34 am
content: How it works for Germany:Buying from Dave (when it is available again):300 AUD + 20 AUD (EEVBlog charges DHL standard 20 AUD, DHL Express for >40 AUD) = 320 AUD (= 205 EUR)Importing to Germany (I only can write about Germany what should be somewhat similar for other European countries):Product Price incl. shipping without tax + 19% VAT + about 4% customs fee + about 15 EUR DHL carrier fee =205 EUR + 38,95 EUR + 8,20 EUR + 15 EUR = 267 EUR (about)Buying from Welectron in Germany:239 EUR incl. VAT and DHL shipping, delivered 2 - 3 daysAt Welectron DHL shipping to Finland is free too so it should be that 239 EUR shipped too. I think the Welectron price is absolutely fair and you (when EEVBlog has on stock) you won't have to wait about 3 weeks (I had to wait) to get it delivered. The delivery time depends remarkable on the customs delay.

author: Specmaster
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 16, 2018, 10:58:42 am
content: Regardless of who is right or wrong in this muddy waters of international trading and various methods of shipping and taxes rates etc, it still works out at over 200GBP for a meter. I gotminemy 867 here in the UK, all taxes fully paid and free next day delivery for 129.60GBP and if I want the ability to be able to data log on an Android or Windows PC via usb cable then that cost with the meter is still only 171.80 GBP and free delivery next day delivery.That for me is a no brainer, a tried and tested, approved meter, albeit a big one but when you actually compare the size v capability, it's not so bad. It was not that long ago that an Avo 8 or a Simpson analogue meter would be considered the pinnacle of metering and all the modern DMM's are way smaller than both of those analogue ones, far more accurate and do so many more things as well.I still think that the 121GW will be a great meter once all the little bugs are resolved but I still can't help but think that it does seem to be over priced especially when stacked up against a Brymen like the 867 / 869 which have the CAT IV 1000v rating.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 16, 2018, 11:03:09 am
content: Quote from: Terry01 on August 16, 2018, 08:20:47 amRead again. Aussie price is 300 AUD (191.85 €) VAT free. If you import from AU, you will have to pay VAT on import ( In DE it is 19%) and some import duty. So end user price will be 228 € plus import duties (10ish € i guess). So I don't think they have much markup at all.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 16, 2018, 11:45:33 am
content: There is VAT and there is import duty, they are separate and at least VAT will be charged.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 16, 2018, 12:02:25 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on August 16, 2018, 11:45:33 amSorry Simon, my English...There are import duties ( that as are import taxes so to speak) and import fees (it is a fee to import agent for their services).It gets all charged to me on a same invoice by agent, so I call that "import duties" altogether.I don't think there are import duties on measurement equipment in my country, but I always have to pay import procedure fees. On small stuff it's around 10-12 € ..But details doesn't matter. Fact is, Welectron price for GW121 is fair, and you can't save if you order directly..

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 16, 2018, 02:54:18 pm
content: Yes here we pay around £10 to the courier then 20% VAT and sometimes import duty which often is a small symbolic amount like £5.With main suppliers (Dave) and distributors you usually try to make all he prices even or no one will buy from the distributors.

author: Terry01
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 16, 2018, 10:40:33 pm
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on August 16, 2018, 12:02:25 pmLOL! So not so smart after all?I’ll If your gonna try and make me look dumb for a simple mistake at least try not to make the same mistake yourself!Hilarious!! 🤡

author: Terry01
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 16, 2018, 11:11:23 pm
content: Quote from: M4x on August 16, 2018, 10:12:34 amIf you look back you’ll see at the end of his first reply he stated that in fact I may be the greedy so and so so maybe not so friendly friendly as you say.Makes me feel 100% better knowing everyone involved in pointing out how I made a simple mistake also did the exact same mistake. A simple one!Awesome! 👻I will hear or say no more on the matter! Seems like.....ah forget it..... 👅

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 16, 2018, 11:12:08 pm
content: Quote from: Terry01 on August 16, 2018, 10:40:33 pmI simply stated you need to recalculate because you made error. Errors are OK. You make errors in math, I make errors in English.And it wasn't so much an error, but a simplification of import process.I didn't call you stupid, didn't imply it... So I don't understand the reaction. I don't think I'm particularly smart. Just want to be helpful.I wasn't one that made whole lesson. It was the other guy. And in my opinion he wasn't offensive, just very detailed...So no, not hilarious when I get called stupid. I kinda don't like it.I'm not offended, I don't care, I'm old enough.. Just, it's not necessary.We can work out misunderstandings in a different way, that's all.On that note, take care,Sinisa

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 16, 2018, 11:17:09 pm
content: Quote from: Terry01 on August 16, 2018, 11:11:23 pmWell, I presumed you didn't calculate correctly and didn't take into account all expenses. Not that you are trying to circumvent the system.I went and read his response again, and it does seem that he presumed you want to cheat taxes...I can see how that could tickle you the wrong way..But I'm not him.Sinisa

author: Terry01
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 16, 2018, 11:32:10 pm
content: I think it’s all a bit daft for a simple mistake. We’re all adults,,,,,I think!Let’s everyone forget it. I was wrong in my calculations. I stand corrected. Sorry it came across I was trying to make anyone feel stupid. That wasn’t my intention. It’s called having a “crack” in Scotland, I know the Irish spell it different before some smart arse picks me us on it. Ha ha! Who knows what that’ll start.Anyways... it’s all hugged out and the GW121 is cheap at twice that price!Everyone happy? 🤪

author: ov_darkness
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 09, 2018, 07:35:09 pm
content: Thanks for all your help!I bought BM867s.Its H U G E and A W E S O M E! (that's what she said).

author: Specmaster
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 09, 2018, 08:33:17 pm
content: Quote from: ov_darkness on November 09, 2018, 07:35:09 pmThat's great news, enjoy, how many did you buy then, you said BM867's. Can't help but think that decision took you 2 months to arrive at, boy you are a cautious so and so.I still enjoy using mine and everytime I pick it up it reminds just how tough this thing is, it feels like a hammer in your hand, big, heavy and rugged.

author: bugi
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2018, 09:11:34 am
content: Quote from: Specmaster on November 09, 2018, 08:33:17 pmContinuing with the joke: It ("BM867s", single, as in this model:https://brymen.eu/shop/bm867s/) is so good a unit that it replaces multiple other DMMs (<-plural), so the "s" in the end is justified.

author: Specmaster
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2018, 10:48:23 am
content: Quote from: bugi on November 10, 2018, 09:11:34 amHaha yes I understand, I have a 867s myself but only last night I found myself using no less than 5 meters. One was the Brymen 867s and 4 others, connected to 4 output channels of HiFi amplifier and the 5th used to probe supply rails. You can never have too many meters.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2018, 10:57:04 am
content: Indeed. I stopped running out of DMMs at 5. They don’t have to all be decent ones; even a few DT830s go a long way on non safety critical stuff.If you’re doing forward engineering, power supplies with decent current and voltage monitoring are worth their weight in gold as well.On the subject of the weight of the BM867 I reckon you could carry it as a weapon.

author: Specmaster
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2018, 11:16:28 am
content: Quote from: bd139 on November 10, 2018, 10:57:04 amVery true with the 867s, I can also add into that category Fluke 25 and 27 both of which I have. So on that basis I'm well armed to the teeth here

author: 1anX
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 03, 2018, 11:00:24 pm
content: I have just ordered a new BM867s from X-On Australia and am curious if anyone has used the BU-86X USB kit with a PC?I could not find the comms kit listed on X-On Australia's website and wondering if any has found a reliable and cheap supplier on ebay. Any suggestions on best place to buy from would be appreciated.I tried getting a price from Oz electrical wholesalers for this meter and was shocked. Cablec is the distributor and to give you some idea of the ridiculous prices asked from the wholesalers, I was quoted $AU660 for the BM867s and $840 for the BM869s!!!!!I found X-On Australia by far the best price at $302 for the BM867s and $330inc GST and delivered to the door. I could have also bought from German suppliers on ebay for about the same cost. Definitely pays to shop around for prices locally in Oz.I have got the 121GW and would have bought a second if the meter had the new PCB and updated hardware, but it seems they are still using up the existing PCBs until the stock runs out. I always wanted to try out the big Brymen so I now have one on its way to add to the collection.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 04, 2018, 12:07:47 am
content: Quote from: 1anX on December 03, 2018, 11:00:24 pmYes, I have. The included software is a little bit primitive, but it works.You can also write your own code to program against the interface, but you have to access it as an HID device over USB. It would have been more pleasant if it used a virtual COM port, but it doesn't do that.QuoteI got mine from welectron.com. I think you might also find it at tme.eu. I'm not sure how either of those work to Australia though. I have bought from both vendors for shipment to the USA without problems.

author: Specmaster
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 04, 2018, 12:15:03 am
content: Does it work ok on Windows 10?

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 04, 2018, 12:19:40 am
content: Quote from: Specmaster on December 04, 2018, 12:15:03 amYes, it does. It seems like a basic C program that uses the native Windows API.One problem I found is that if you use the supplied installer it cannot save log files due to write protection in the Program Files folder. To fix that I just copied the executable files into a folder in my user space and ran it from there.

author: 1anX
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2018, 10:13:52 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on December 04, 2018, 12:07:47 amI got the USB interface and it works fine on Win 10. I was thinking of looking to interface it to BLE using an ESP32 module since the library is available for HID BLE.Any ideas if its already been done?I dont really need it, but it could make an interesting project. I haven't programmed anything using BT yet and the BM 86X series are pretty popular meters, others may be interested?