Oh the wankery! - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Armin_Balija
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 09, 2011, 05:31:13 am
content: Quote from: Wartex on July 09, 2011, 05:10:52 amSpecial cords for..................... what exactly? Look like regular cords to me. Do they cook dinner? Wash cars?

author: ipman
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 09, 2011, 07:04:29 am
content: There is a typo error: it's not Oyalde, correct isOyaide.Oyaide makes cables for "audiophool" market.The connectors are good quality, no doubt, but the price is ... huge.

author: orbiter
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 09, 2011, 01:11:18 pm
content: I fixed that for you

author: david77
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 09, 2011, 02:22:18 pm
content: How can they sleep at night?

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 09, 2011, 02:28:42 pm
content: Interesting flipflops wartex.

author: Sionyn
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 09, 2011, 02:42:25 pm
content: old plugs from 50 they looks like

author: flapjackboy
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 09, 2011, 06:21:49 pm
content: Quote from: david77 on July 09, 2011, 02:22:18 pmOn a pile of money given to them by idiots.

author: Neilm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 09, 2011, 07:12:44 pm
content: Quote from: david77 on July 09, 2011, 02:22:18 pmSafe in the knowledge that they are proving an old English saying "A fool and his money are soon parted".Either that or they are receivers for the famous "Stupidity Tax".Neil

author: PStevenson
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2011, 10:09:37 am
content: Quote from: Sionyn on July 09, 2011, 02:42:25 pmEVERYBODY knows that 50's stuff sounds better! hahaI remember seeing a guitar "effect" which was just a metal box with 2 jackplugs attached to each other with about 2 inches of old wire from a neve mixing desk soldered with solder from the 50's. I thought it was a joke, how stupid I was!

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2011, 10:21:49 am
content: Yes, valve amplifiers sound better than modern solid state amplifiers and vinyl sounds better than all modern formats including CDs and FLAC.

author: tekfan
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2011, 11:52:09 am
content: Quote from: PStevenson on July 10, 2011, 10:09:37 amNo silver solder? No cryogenically frozen wire?At least Neve used good test equipment to make those things.

author: PStevenson
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2011, 12:24:59 pm
content: ohh no it wasn't Neve that made them, it was some Japanese company that ripped bits of wire out of old Neve desks so you could get that"vintage Neve sound"they probably shoved it up their arse to get that corny timbre

author: ivan747
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2011, 02:01:17 pm
content: Quote from: Hero999 on July 10, 2011, 10:21:49 amActually, for some applications tubes still have their place: novelty and distortion. They distort differently, instead of clipping, they can be overdriven a little bit. I use them for novelty.

author: Excavatoree
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2011, 01:19:27 pm
content: My computer monitor just died, so I'm shopping for a new one. One reviewer said that monitor "brand x, model y" looked better using the DVI input, but that's "probably because i have a good, 200 dollar (US) DVI cable that I'm using, while my HDMI cable isn't as expensive."This idiot is using a 200 dollar DVI cable for his 160 dollar monitor!

author: scrat
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2011, 01:31:36 pm
content: Quote from: Excavatoree on July 11, 2011, 01:19:27 pmDon't you know? Expensive cables boost up the digital signal! I don't recall if they increase the bitrate or the level...

author: PStevenson
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2011, 02:19:38 pm
content: that's only if they are gold plated of course!let's hope Darwin sorts him out.this is another stupid thing I found and I pray to the universe or whatever that it is a joke I really do.I think it is a joke, it bloody has to be because it advertises "super intelligent chips" that upgrades a CD to be more dynamic and open, Also pebbles you tape to interconnects to absorb vibration or some shithttp://www.machinadynamica.com/machina62.htm

author: Kiriakos-GR
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2011, 02:40:16 pm
content: Quote from: Excavatoree on July 11, 2011, 01:19:27 pmI bet that you are looking and comparing the latest DELL IPS panels.

author: tekfan
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2011, 04:16:16 pm
content: Quote from: scrat on July 11, 2011, 01:31:36 pmYeah and Panasonic audiophool grade capacitors improve data, openness, clarity and image of the sound as well.

author: Excavatoree
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2011, 04:24:54 pm
content: Also add some carbon composition resistors - for that "rosy glow" around the notes.

author: flapjackboy
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2011, 05:06:06 pm
content: Quote from: PStevenson on July 11, 2011, 02:19:38 pmIIRC, that site is a parody of all the genuine audiophool woo sites out there.Sent from my Desire HD using Tapatalk

author: tekfan
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2011, 05:36:35 pm
content: Quote from: Excavatoree on July 11, 2011, 04:24:54 pmI guess metal film resistors sound ''tinny''.

author: Excavatoree
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2011, 07:29:54 pm
content: Below is a letter I sent to Mr. Bob Pease back in 2002 in response to one of his audiophoolery columns. His reply is in all caps, included in the body of my text.Mr. Pease,I know you are a very busy person, but this article is quite amusing -although it is not the author's intention. I have never seen technicalterms so misused. What is "tight" sound? How can sound be "flavored?"What does vanilla "sound like?" All interesting questions,*** VERRRRY INTERESTING - - BUT -- STUPID....but I must exist in the real world, where it is occasionally necessary to splice a speaker cable, regardless of what kind of flavor or tension it adds to my sound.*** OH, but SPLICING would be a bad idea. Just buy newones of the required length, or it will sound badbecause of the splice....http://www.soundstage.com/synergize/synergize121998.htm(follow the link above if you have some time to kill and want to read a lot of audiophoolery.).

author: PStevenson
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2011, 07:43:18 pm
content: hahaha "more accurate shadings in timbre and dynamics" (he chose copper wiring)

author: tekfan
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2011, 08:29:09 pm
content: Quote from: Excavatoree on July 11, 2011, 07:29:54 pmLOLI've compiled a list of some wank audiophool words and phrases:loudspeaker-cable treatmentconductor material and puritydielectric material and purityconstruction geometrytighter soundsound has a pinched and strident characterpurityimpurityelectron flowboundariesgrains per footefficientdistortionfrequency integritytransmissiontime-domain integrityhighs are known to travel much faster through most conductors than do lows (NO NO NO NO NO NO)consistent responsedynamic capabilitydynamic changesmusical signalsrepeated collisionssonic resultharshnessbrightnessveiling effectharmonic dullnessenormous collision occurrencesignals arriving at the speakers too early, and some arriving too late (AGAIN NO NO NO NO NO NO)true timingsubtle harmonic structuretypically resonant and gritty soundmicro variety dynamicsvery rapid progress of subsequent oxidationsonic consequenceeach signal packet is essentially sheared off by repeatedly smacking into those crystalline barrierssignal fractals being uncorrectedfunctionally perfect coppersingle crystal filamentpower cordsPro-AC11standard Belden-type Pass Labs Aleph 3 cordchange in the treble characteranalyze the difference (With what? Gold plated aoudiophool grade ears?)high-frequency informationaddition of lower harmonic structurebronzier attribute to the cymbalsoverall flavor of the soundfill-in of harmonic structureDusty Vawter-modified Audio Alchemy Power Station Twohardnesshigh-frequency integritylower-treble harmonicsbetter bronzy flavor (What exactly does bronze taste like?)upper strings more bitetruthful vitality to trumpets, trombones and other metallic instrumentsenhancement of the lower registersbetter defined in pitch, speed and locationPro-9 Plus biwire speaker cablesvisual continuity to the whole linebalancerhythmic timingbetter-delineated soundstage and tightening of the image outlines without losing the air around instruments (WHAT?)overall tonalitytruthfulbroad bandtop to bottomover-pronounceddetailedbass extensionfine pitch definitiondetail without harshnessbass-shytreble-hot flavorunreal shimmer to the cymbalsmissing the brass tonedigital cables (don't go there just dont)more accurate shadings in timbre and dynamicsvividrealisticsoundstagephantom imagemicro and macro dynamicslow-level detailfocusedacoustichonest soundingGoertz Alpha-Core MI-2 copper biwiresVon Schweikert Research VR 4 Generation IIAnd that's just from this text. There are a loooot more out there.I think it's nice to have a thread about audiophools now and then just to relieve yourself.

author: ipman
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 12, 2011, 07:06:35 am
content: I admire your patience. And I mean it

author: Frangible
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2011, 09:57:33 pm
content: You left one out:"If you can't measure what I'm describing with your equipment, it means your equipment is defective"

author: metalphreak
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2011, 05:28:50 pm
content: I find the "gold plated" connectors on optical TOSLINK cables the best.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2011, 05:38:29 pm
content: And when the audiophools have bought all the junk cables and amps, whet next...A clock of course.... only $2000http://www.mcintoshlabs.com/us/Products/pages/ProductDetails.aspx?CatId=Accessories&ProductId=MCLK12

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2011, 06:19:32 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on July 14, 2011, 05:38:29 pmmaybe a good niche.

author: tekfan
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2011, 08:36:33 pm
content: Why a clock when you can probably get the amplifier for almost the same price. I don't think McIntosh is a good example for audiophools. They actually took proper measurments of their amplifiers:

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 14, 2011, 09:06:24 pm
content: I may have struck the goldmine.behold...http://audiograb.wordpress.com/

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 14, 2011, 09:23:30 pm
content: I think even the author of that page could not make sense out of the speaker wiring.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2011, 09:38:47 pm
content: Quote from: HLA-27b on July 14, 2011, 09:06:24 pmwhat the heck!

author: tekfan
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2011, 12:23:18 am
content: Quote from: HLA-27b on July 14, 2011, 09:06:24 pmWhy do I giggle at every single picture?And are those copper tapes covered in clear sticky tape held together by drinking straws suspended in mid air by sticky tape an sticky taped to the wall?They must be using some sort of special anti-resonant sticky tape. The wall must be made of special anti-resonant bricks as well.

author: PStevenson
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2011, 06:38:07 am
content: these people all need shaving, sterilizing and destroying.I am dying to know what they think those stupid little brass weights they've got everywhere are supposed to do.

author: david77
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2011, 07:23:28 am
content: Am I seeing things or are they actually using these home made wank wires as mains leads?If they do: brave and stupid in equal measure.

author: PStevenson
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2011, 08:43:20 am
content: Quote from: david77 on July 15, 2011, 07:23:28 amno, it's even worse than that, they have wrapped wankery leads up in sellotape or whatever the hell it is, so they've probably spent $10,000 on an IEC cable and then sellotaped it up

author: deephaven
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2011, 11:46:46 am
content: Looking through that website, how could something called "Horning Eufrodite Ultimate Zigma Plus" not be the most wonderfull thing in the world?

author: Ferroto
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2011, 12:16:36 pm
content: I wonder if component manufactures still do limited production runs for valve amplifiers specifically for audiophiles.Also is it too late to jump on the bandwagon.

author: david77
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2011, 02:07:54 pm
content: I'd hazard a guess as to what those brass weights are supposed to do:They put them on all kinds of flat surfaces to dampen mechanical vibration. They might actually physically do that but why you would need that in a home hifi setup I don't know.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2011, 02:46:26 pm
content: Quote from: david77 on July 15, 2011, 02:07:54 pmThey put them on all kinds of flat surfaces to dampen mechanical vibration (your quote). i dont understand why you dont know the thing you already know.let me add the guess, the antenna shape like weigh is to absorb resonance got loose in the air. it is extensively studied/researched and cost you another thousand. and i suspect its "super fine grade" wood, not brass/metal, since wood absorb vibration better than metal.

author: david77
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2011, 03:00:36 pm
content: What I don't know is why it would matter if, say the top cover of the enclosure of an amplifier, would start vibrating a tiny bit. I can't think of a scenario where this would matter. Maybe they are scared of a mechanical feedback loop? As I said, I don't know.What antenna shaped weight are you talking about? Do you mean the "pylons" they string their wank wire along? They keep vibrations from the floor off the wires, you know how sensitive electrical impulses in copper wire are to vibration, they get all shaken up and drop out the other end of the wire in a random fashion.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2011, 04:33:31 pm
content: thats why you cannot understand that because you are not audiophoolery, same as me, we only can assume. who knows what the tiny physical vibration can do to the opamp feedback. yes that antenna on the floor i was talking about. there must be reason why its shape like antenna, they can always put different shape to make the wires off the floor, and tell different story about it.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2011, 05:50:31 pm
content: I'm getting worried, I keep thinking some of those replies might be serious so I'll post, just in case there's a gain of seriousness there or someone reading it takes it seriously.It's obviously all bollocks. An electrical wire needs to be in a magnetic or electric field in order for a current to be induced in it due to mechanical vibration. Even if you count the earth's magnetic field, which is far too tiny to have an effect, no current will be induced because the wires are parallel so the fields cancel.I think someone did some tests on various special audiophool grade cables vs ordinary copper cables with different capacitances/resistances and found some of the more expensive cables to be worse and under certain circumstances cables with lower resistance/capacitance can be worse. In reality the best cable will have as low a DC resistance possible and the same characteristic impedance as the speaker but there's no need to worry as speaker cables in a home will be electrically short and will need to be hundreds of meters long before it makes a difference and at that distance it will sound shit anyway.Regarding those silly mains filters: if the amplifier has such shit ripple rejection then throw it away. A standard EMC filter and proper shielding of all the small signal cables should get rid of all of the EMC problems.Of course, there's no point in explaining any of this to an audiophool.Sorry if I've ruined the fun.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 15, 2011, 07:06:34 pm
content: It has always puzzled me how audiophiles (and audiophools alike) are brain locked in their gear. They don't seem to be interested in the music as an art form. You won't find photos of happy audiophiles enjoying music. You will see musicians preforming live at audiophile shows but they are there for comparison purposes so audiophiles can compare live sound to reproduction. The whole thing seems like a very elaborate way of not enjoying themselves. I'd like to dive into psychology here but my command of English is not enough.There might be lessons to be drawn here regarding marketing and product placement. What I noticed so far is as follows- Quality of production is always top notch. Even when they are selling wooden voodoo sticks they are of superb fit and finish.- Good industrial design. They care that what they sell looks good even if it accomplishes nothing.- Things that accomplish anything command ridiculously high prices. Price escalation is prominent.- All audiophile gear has impeccable sales and marketing. Graphic designs, marketing material etc all top notch.- Audiophile arena is separated in a few camps. All camps have their religiously zealous magazine editors.- Voodoo snake oil items sometimes cost substantially less than expected. They use low price as a surprise element to suck in customers.There is however one publication which has remained reasonably sane amidst all this. If you care to distinguish between philes and phools it might be an interesting reading. There are lengthy articles about whether cables make a difference and other such things. I think the cable tests mentioned by Hero999 above are the very tests published in the issue 16 of this magazine. (look at the back issues section) They are all available free in PDF form.The Audio Critichttp://www.theaudiocritic.com/

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 15, 2011, 07:33:57 pm
content: Quote from: Hero999 on July 15, 2011, 05:50:31 pmAgreed.Quote from: Hero999 on July 15, 2011, 05:50:31 pmEver heard of the piezoelectric and triboelectric effects? Both can produce electrons due to mechanical vibration. One due to stress, the other through rubbing. I'm sure these effects are many orders of magnitude lower than what the audio guys are using (you usually worry about this kind of stuff with low level measurements, like in the pA and fA range).

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2011, 09:05:07 pm
content: Quote from: alm on July 15, 2011, 07:33:57 pmI've never head of the piezoelectric effect in PVC cables before.Triboelectric, yes but that wouldn't that only happen if one cable conductor rubbed against a different material? If the whole cable were rubbed then the charge would ore or less evenly around the whole cable making both conductors at the same potential.

author: deephaven
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2011, 09:09:00 pm
content: Quote from: alm on July 15, 2011, 07:33:57 pmI've experienced microphonic cable before now, it can be quite pronounced. Maybe the audio interconnect cables should be surrounded by acoustic material so that they don't pick up the sound waves from the speakers? Pipe lagging should do the job. but it would have to be audiophile quality, maybe Polish goose down or something.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2011, 09:24:49 pm
content: Quote from: deephaven on July 15, 2011, 09:09:00 pmI'm cynical.Decent cable shouldn't be microphonic, PVC certainly isn't and the copper wire inside definitely won't be. I don't know about other insulators such as silicone but I seriously doubt it.Mechanical vibration can definitely affect contacts in plugs though. Some ceramic capacitor materials are peizo electric so will be microphonic, an effect which can cause distortion and even oscillation, if used to couple small signals.I think it's more likely you have a problem with any of the connectors or capacitors rather than the cable itself.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 15, 2011, 10:10:16 pm
content: Quote from: Hero999 on July 15, 2011, 09:05:07 pmKeithley's low level measurement handbook lists PVC as 'moderately good in regard to piezoelectric effects', so the effect is probably quite weak, but definitely non-zero.Quote from: Hero999 on July 15, 2011, 09:05:07 pmHow about the center conductor rubbing against the insulation as the cable is flexed? We're not talking about Van de Graaff generators here, but something in the order of the nA.

author: david77
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2011, 12:40:02 am
content: Quote from: Hero999 on July 15, 2011, 05:50:31 pmSuccinct description.Quote from: david77 on July 15, 2011, 03:00:36 pmThis was meant to be tongue-in-cheek.

author: ivan747
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2011, 01:36:02 am
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on July 14, 2011, 05:38:29 pmI like analog panel meters. I would buy that if it was like $150, as a kit.

author: ivan747
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2011, 01:40:31 am
content: Quote from: deephaven on July 15, 2011, 11:46:46 amWell I have to admit it looks awesome, but I doubt anyone can notice the difference between a well equalized system with decent speakers and those $20,000 sets.

author: Ernie Milko
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2011, 09:41:04 am
content: I like the list, Tekfan. You missed one.A veil has been lifted.I often flummox people when they ask me how something sounds, and I say something like 'OK' or 'crap'I can't see how you can describe sound.To me, something either sounds OK, or it doesn't.All of this audiophool nonsense puzzles me, the (allegedly) better option is always the more expensive one!

author: TheWelly888
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2011, 02:29:57 pm
content: Anyone who uses minature telegraph poles, sellotape, drinking straws and bits of brass turnings ( Naturally all the brass's proto-neutrolectrons will have been properly set up before turning in a ley line aligned lathe? ) on his hi-fi set-up will be so subjective that any objectivity will be fatal to the audiophool if it came within 100 yards of him!

author: Ernie Milko
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2011, 03:03:17 pm
content: What do the telegraph poles do.........exactly?And I noticed bits of twisted pair running all around the gaff?http://audiograb.wordpress.comI've just had a look at this blog, and all I can say is.................Gordon Bennett................

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2011, 05:17:44 pm
content: Quote from: alm on July 15, 2011, 10:10:16 pmTHat's probably true but will probably be dwarfed by thermal noise.Quote from: Ernie Milko on July 16, 2011, 09:41:04 amFortunately that can now be measured scientifically, despite what any audiophool may say.In general, good audio equipment will have as lower noise, total harmonic distortion and phase shift as possible and as flat as frequency response over 20Hz to 20kHz as possible, unless it's an effects or distortion unit. Fortunately these characteristics can be pretty accurately measured and no magic is involved.It's pretty easy to build a good solid state amplifier with inexpensive components, it's everything else which isn't perfect. If anything it's the speakers which are probably the weakest link in the chain, not the cable.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 17, 2011, 01:13:51 am
content: The room acoustics are probably even more important, unless special attention was paid to it. For any speaker that's not complete crap, the designer paid at least some attention to the sound quality. Not so much for a random living room where people put their speakers so they look right.

author: jahonen
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2011, 07:26:52 am
content: I don't think that perceived sound quality of most of these "audiophool" products have actually nothing to do with the signal or power quality by itself. It is purely the feeling you get from the product, it affects hugely on the perceived sound quality, and is integral part of their hobby. Quite similar thing when we here examine a guts of measurement equipment for checking the build quality, for comparison, think about the Gossen-Metrawatt rotary switch feeling/soundI think many audiophools actually know this but they don't care, as long as it subjectively sounds better. Technically, many of respected audiophool products are quite crap from purely technical viewpoint.Yes, room-speaker interaction is the most difficult thing to cope with. It has become clear that a speaker with perfect on-axis frequency response can sound horrible in normal room, if the response is not proper in off-axis angles. You could take any crap speaker, measure the on-axis impulse response and then build an inverse correcting FIR to make it flat in both magnitude and phase, and use DSP to perform the calculation in realtime. But this will fail miserably in a normal room, due to very bad off-axis response. In fact, off-axis response will become even worse.There was an experiment here in Finland in 80's or late 70's, where they put a loudspeaker (with straight on-axis frequency response) in an anechoic chamber and recorded the sound with a microphone. It is unbelievably difficult to say from the resulting recording which one is the original and which one is the reproduction through the loudspeaker and microphone. Thus the importance of decent off-axis response was demonstrated to be one of the most important things in loudspeaker design (not so easy as one might think).Regards,Janne

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2011, 05:41:23 pm
content: The annoying thing is lots of the silly audiophool products just look shit: pylons for cables wtf? I could understand to some extent, if they looked good but they don't.