deciding what Computer to get - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Arcamax
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2015, 01:18:25 am
content: realistically I cant decide weather i should get this desktophttp://www.thesource.ca/estore/product.aspx?product=801...or if i should get one of these laptopshttp://www.bestbuy.ca/catalog/compare-result.aspx?Produ....I don't want to be spending too much money. Generally i want to do web surfing, viewing pictures and YouTube videos and a little gaming like Terraria and possibly others.

author: retiredcaps
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2015, 01:21:10 am
content: Both links broken.

author: Arcamax
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2015, 01:23:30 am
content: http://www.bestbuy.ca/catalog/compare-result.aspx?ProductIds=10362500%2C10361863%2C10324864&returnPath=%2Fen-CA%2Fcategory%2Flaptops-ultrabooks%2F20352.aspx%3Ftype%3Dproduct%26NVID%3Ddepartments%253BComputers%252C%2BTablets%2B%2B%2526%2BeReaders%253BLaptops%2B%2526%2BUltrabooks%253Bim%253Bc1%253Br1%253Ben%26filter%3Dcategory%25253aComputers%252B%252526%252BTablets%25253bcategory%25253aLaptops%252B%252526%252BUltrabooks%25253bcurrentoffers0enrchstring%25253aIn-Store%25253bbrandName%25253aASUS%25257cACER%25257cSAMSUNG%26page%3D1%26pageSize%3D96%26sortBy%3Dprice%26sortDir%3DascSorryhttp://www.thesource.ca/estore/product.aspx?product=8018638&language=en-CA

author: TheElectricChicken
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2015, 01:38:48 am
content: for those prices I'd get three or four secondhand laptops and put linux mint, ubuntu, and a few others as multi-boot on them. HOWEVER, you want certain games like Terraria so they are generally tied to a particular platform like windows or x box or whatever. So you're kind of stuck with all the problems of that operating system.https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/windows-10-security-and-privacy-concerns/I'd get the minimum system for gaming and keep that one separate from the online / work / productivity / multimedia computer, which would be linux.

author: retiredcaps
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2015, 01:59:19 am
content: Unless you really need the portability of a laptop, desktops in general will give you the best bang for your buck.The desktop you linked is cheaper and has a faster CPU, as per simple CPU benchmark, and possibly a faster hard drive compared to the laptop.I had to lookup Terraria, but it is now released on linux.http://www.destructoid.com/terraria-hits-mac-and-linux-at-long-last-304318.phtmlIf you want to spend significantly less, look at your local kijiji. You can probably find some dual core in the $50 CDN range and a quad core in the $100 CDN range.I don't play games at all so I can easily surf and watch youtube videos on a P4 running Lubuntu. All my systems at home were "discarded" by others as non working usually due to a couple of bad capacitors. Thanks to that I have some dual and quad cores for free.

author: Arcamax
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2015, 02:34:36 am
content: I have my 23" flat screen TV that id want to put it on, this is my TV.http://www.bestbuy.ca/en-ca/product/insignia-insignia-24-1080p-60hz-led-tv-ns-24d510na15-ns-24d510na15/10278993.aspx?path=a73b6e6a312d13ee3558495079120d22en02What would murder soul suspect or minecraft (or more popular games) work on this desktop or those three laptops i listed

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2015, 06:16:44 pm
content: I would get none of the above. All are troublesome consumer crap.

author: Falcon69
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2015, 07:27:41 pm
content: Your best is too build your own. A lot of the consumer brands (HP, Compaq, eMachines) you can't really upgrade them as they have parts specifically made and as cheap as possible for that machine.I just ordered up my new system on NewEgg. Every part of this machine can be switched out and upgraded later if need be. Sometimes, if the parts are on sale, you can build a better system than an HP, Compaq, etc. for the same price or even less.

author: rdl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2015, 08:14:30 pm
content: Assemble your own, all it takes is a screwdriver and a grounding strap. With a little shopping you should be able to come up with something much better than store bought at not much more cost. Pre-built systems always use the cheapest, lowest quality parts as possible, so it's hard to beat them on price alone. Try to buy as much as possible from a single source in order to save on shipping.

author: fivefish
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2015, 08:31:17 pm
content: Get a mac...or better yet, Build your own Mac/Hackintosh using your own chosen OSX compatible parts (by that, I mean parts using chipsets that are supported natively by the OSX kexts).

author: TheElectricChicken
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2015, 08:32:37 pm
content: Quote from: rdl on August 26, 2015, 08:14:30 pmOh this is so true. I always assemble my own, though I never wear a strap I do my own anti static thing there.https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/non-earthed-wall-sockets-vs-esd-safe-soldering/msg736209/#newHome-built IS best and cheapest. I put the latest desktop motherboard into a re-purposed server case. That gave it a WHOPPING huge redundant power supplyfor less than a tiny one I would have bought otherwise. Lovely, stable, best quality possible with tons of power for as many drives as I could think of. You can't shop like that for a new one.

author: TheElectricChicken
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2015, 08:35:46 pm
content: Quote from: fivefish on August 26, 2015, 08:31:17 pmBut how can you get it to spy on you undressing like the off the shelf macs and Windows ones do ?http://www.computerworld.com/article/2475633/mobile-security/is-your-mac-spying-on-you-.html

author: fivefish
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2015, 09:34:24 pm
content: QuoteIt's easy. You visit questionable sites, click on every link on spam emails you received telling you won million$, download random programs and install them. It helps tremendously if you have Flash installed, and let Java programs run whenever it wants to.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2015, 09:55:52 pm
content: Quote from: Falcon69 on August 26, 2015, 07:27:41 pmNo. Get a business machine from Dell or HP. The specs aren't sexy and on paper you can get a faster machine for the same money but in my experience (I used to sell & repair PCs during me EE study) cheap and reliable don't go hand in hand. Nowadays I just buy business Dell machines. I just can't get a better airflow through the case and low noise level from a self build machine.

author: Armxnian
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2015, 10:18:24 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on August 26, 2015, 09:55:52 pmWhat cases? Basically any reputable case manufacturer will allow for a silent high performance build. If you are running multiple graphics cards or processors then you can watercool.

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2015, 01:10:05 am
content: Try to find some really cheap second hand gaming PC off craigslist or whatever you use over there (my PC with a 7 year old C2D Q9550 and 5 year old HD6850 still runs most things okay). Combine with a 14" laptop for portability.

author: Arcamax
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2015, 01:17:42 am
content: yeah im thinking i could maybe make my own build but can i do it for around $400 - $500.

author: fivefish
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2015, 01:27:13 am
content: but can i do it for around $400 - $500.Sure, if you pick crappy parts.I went back to my old spreadsheet when I was building my computer back in 2011... just the motherboard and the i7 cpu totals $505 already.My whole setup costs $1300 for me. And I don't have anything exotic... just a stable/sensible build using dependable parts.But hey, it's 2015 and I'm still using it and still going strong.Now, if you go pick a name-brand computer with the same specs as my machine build, you would have paid $3K+ retail though.

author: Arcamax
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2015, 01:35:38 am
content: Well i don't need nothing too high tech but i understand what your saying.

author: fivefish
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2015, 01:45:29 am
content: I guess you have to think what are you going to use the machine for... and budget accordingly.overspending on a high-end DIY computer when all you're going to do is non cpu-intensive work will not be smart either.But underspending and building a low-end DIY computer, but needing it for high cpu-intensive work will just frustrate you to no end.For my $1300 cost back in 2011, I built my machine to be able to do video-editing, audio-editing, web development, running virtual Windows machines (running web server and SQL server for development), electronics design, graphics work, etc... and be able to run OSXSo for me, I know I saved a lot of money vs. buying a comparable machine.It's now 4 yrs old, so you can say I spent equivalent of $325 a year for my computer build. We'll see if it will last another year.

author: Armxnian
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2015, 02:00:24 am
content: Quote from: Arcamax on August 27, 2015, 01:17:42 amHere I built this for you:http://pcpartpicker.com/p/PsDxJxShould run all the things you mentioned and light gaming with the igpu.There are even cheaper parts available. You can save $30 on the case if you want a cheaper one, $25 on the motherboard if you want one with only pcie 2.0, and $30 on the ssd if you want the 120gb version. With the money saved, you can upgrade to a higher clocked i3 or even an i5. The AMD cpu's in the builds you linked have 6 cores but their single threaded performance is miserable compared to haswell.

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2015, 02:13:55 am
content: Last year I got a desktop just for electronics for just $139.80 including taxes.(Open Box) HP DC8000 Desktop Computer Off-Lease Refurbished; Intel Core 2 Duo E8400 Processor 3.0GHz; Microsoft Windows 7 Professional 64bit; 4GB DDR3-1333 RAM; 160GB Hard Drive; DVD-RW Drive; Display Not IncludedPower supply can't handle high end graphics cards but I'm not planning to play games in this rig.I added some memory (just 2 extra Gigs) and a couple of 500GB drives and I'm quite happy since the memory and the drives were free to me.The memory came from upgrading my wife's PC to 4 Gigs so I took here older 2 Gigs. The drives came from a friend that was upgrading his drives so I got his older ones.But this can't handle high end games but it should be fine for that 2d type game you were talking about but not sure.Since it came with Windows 7 pro, I got a free upgrade to Windows 10 pro which I'm currently running.What made it so cheap was: Open box, and Off lease.

author: Arcamax
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2015, 04:19:53 am
content: Quote from: Armxnian on August 27, 2015, 02:00:24 amWhat do you call light gaming, but anyways it looks good i think.I can always use my external seagate 3 tb backup hdd like normal useage. Oh and i would have to install/buy windows right.

author: Armxnian
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2015, 05:02:33 am
content: Quote from: Arcamax on August 27, 2015, 04:19:53 amLight gaming as in the game you mentioned. Maybe some other popular games that don't require much gpu power. Don't expect to run any triple A titles with the igpu though.If you have windows 7 or 8 then you can create a bootable usb which has the license in it and just do a fresh install of windows 10 on the new ssd.The only other thing you should probably buy is some thermal paste like a tube of Gelid gc extreme. The hyper 212 cooler comes with preinstalled thermal paste but if you mess up the installation you're out of luck.I would recommend spending a bit more on an all around usage computer as the sweet spot in value comes in a few more hundred dollars, especially for gaming. But if $500 is your limit then the build I linked features components from the best manufacturers and will do the tasks you mentioned. You can always change parts around. PCpartpicker will tell you if the hardware is compatible with each other.

author: Towger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2015, 07:36:22 am
content: I have bought, built, upgraded and repaired many PCs over the last 25 years. My advise is as mentioned above is to by a branded business pc.For example I picked up a 6 month old Dell 9020 SFF i7 4790 8gb for EUR480. Not as upgradeable as a self built, but much more than a laptop. The fellow selling them had them on eBay and several local Websites and had to keep dropping the price to shift them. Meanwhile on the local sites, people are paying silly money for other people's self build, clapped out, big ugly gaming machines.Dells 9020 SFF model is small, light and I can barely hear it when it's sitting on a shelf right above the monitor.

author: Arcamax
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2015, 01:05:24 pm
content: Quote from: Towger on August 27, 2015, 07:36:22 amWhy Do you recommend buying an older/branded business computer vs building one.Quote from: Armxnian on August 27, 2015, 05:02:33 amwhich video card would you recommend i get if i needed it

author: Galenbo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2015, 02:15:18 pm
content: Quote from: rdl on August 26, 2015, 08:14:30 pmThis advise for a guy that can not even decide to buy "a" desktop or "a" laptop? C'mon.

author: Falcon69
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2015, 04:15:02 pm
content: I think you need to decide in this order:Budget.....what is MAX amount of cash you want to spend? Try to think of it in terms of how much you think the product will cost, and how many years you will get out of it, then divide years by cost.Decide if you want a Laptop or a Desktop. As always, there advantages and disadvantages of each.DesktopNot MobileBetter Components (faster and more storage)Cost less than LaptopNo replacing battery. (keep in mind, that most laptop batteries only last for about 3-6 hours continuous running, 30 minutes on high end gaming laptops)LaptopMobileNot as good of components as a Desktop (slower, less storage)Cost more than Desktop usuallyUsually need to replace battery every year or two years, depending on use. This could cost $50+. My laptop, the battery cost $250.Do your Research. There are plenty of sites. TomsHardware, CPUBenchmark, etc. Google is your friend here.Look for deals! Sometimes you can find things on sale.After you decide on what PC (whether Desktop or Laptop), Buy from a reputable dealer that gives quick turnarounds. Never buy from eBay or a private party. If something goes wrong, good luck getting your money back. I can't tell you how many times I have bought components, and they arrived DOA or something wrong with them. RAM and CPU you should NEVER buy off eBay/Craigslist/etc.Once you have bought your components, and assembled them, do burn in tests to check the stability of your RAM and CPU. If you don't do this, later, you will find that the chips are bad while playing your favorite game. They may work fine under small loads, but start playing that power hungry game, and you may have blue screens of death! Plenty of programs out there to test your RAM, CPU, and even video card, again, Google is your friend here. If any fail the test, return them. Make sure you do the testing BEFORE any overclocking if you choose to do that. Overclocking is another story, you do that at your own risk! What I mean by that...once you overclock something, chances are the retailer or the manufacture of the chip will not accept them for return or warranty. RAM, GPU, and CPU are only rated to be stable for the description (speeds) they are advertised for sale for. Can't hold the retailer or manufacture responsible because that 3.0GHZ CPU you bought won't run at 4.8GHZ!There are plenty of good places to buy components. I have had great luck with NewEgg.com for components for desktops, and for Laptops, XoticPC.com. Both companies are very helpful and have never had problems returning a faulty device if it arrives DOA or not compatible with other components I had bought. i.e. 1150 socket CPU bought by mistake instead of a 1155 CPU.And, as someone has said, Make sure you use a ESD Strap, or at least make sure you touch grounded metal all the time to limit the risk of damaging components when you assemble your new machine.The other points I want to make.......AND they are important ones. If you plan on buying a PC for gaming now or in the future, you may want to upgrade that later.Right now DDR4 RAM is the top of the line right now, But, the GPU's run at DDR5, what does that mean? It means that the RAM will be the bottleneck in the system (as well as the CPU), so make sure you buy the newest and fastest RAM you can for what your motherboard can handle.The best GPU in my opinion is the GTX980 (the GTX980ti has top benchmarks, but everyone on the games I play who run that card are having problems). The best CPU right now is the Intel i7-5960X. The reason it is the best is because it is fast, very fast, and it has 40 PCIe lanes (the 5930K also has 40). What I mean by that is that if you have 3 video cards, the video cards will run at x16/x16/x8. Add that up, that's 40 PCIe lanes! And, with that CPU, you can run 4 cards in SLI (nVidia cards) or Crossfire (ATI cards). All other CPU's you can run a max of 3 video cards, but they will only run at x8/x4/x4 as they only have 16 PCIe Lanes (anymore than 3 cards, and the CPU won't even recognize the rest). Although the new i7-5820k chip has 28 PCIe Lanes and will run those cards at x16/x8/x4. In my opinion, the advantage the 4th video card gives, is not worth the money at all. Do a Youtube search for SLI configurations, and you'll see what I mean from the reviews. There is even a review on using a 5960X and a 5820K using 3 identical GTX980 cards, and amazingly comparable, the 5820K chip did very well, however, when a 4th GPU was added, the 5960X blew it away, as the 5820K didn't even recognize the 4th GPU. Here's the video of that:

author: Towger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2015, 07:35:49 pm
content: Quote from: Arcamax on August 27, 2015, 01:05:24 pmBusiness machines are built to last and the modern SFF ones are quiet, neat, small and compact. If you get the right one, second hand they can be a lot cheaper then buying parts. For example the i7 4790 CPU in the machine I got for €480 is currently over €350 alone, from many suppliers. The built in Intel HD 4600 graphic will handle 3 monitors without any problems and because I have a SFF case any half decent half height graphics card could be added if you were gaming mad. If I was going to upgrade the machine I would spend the money on a SSD drive.

author: pickle9000
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2015, 07:39:24 pm
content: I think you should get one with buttons on it.

author: Towger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2015, 07:48:09 pm
content: Quote from: pickle9000 on August 27, 2015, 07:39:24 pmNot on a budget of $400-$500

author: Armxnian
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2015, 08:20:26 pm
content: Quote from: Arcamax on August 27, 2015, 01:05:24 pmGTX 950 seems like the best non high end price to performance card right now.Quote from: Towger on August 27, 2015, 07:35:49 pmThe fact is that you can build a machine that is as or more reliable, quiet, neat, small and compact, for yourself. There is nothing proprietary about the desktops dell sells. The only real benefit of buying a prebuilt for personal use is if you're too lazy to build one yourself.

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2015, 08:28:53 pm
content: Quote from: Armxnian on August 27, 2015, 08:20:26 pmThat is if your power supply can spare an extra 250 Watts needed for that card and has the required extra power connectors which most standard power supplies would have.

author: Armxnian
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2015, 08:40:53 pm
content: Quote from: miguelvp on August 27, 2015, 08:28:53 pm250 watts? Nvidia recommends 300w for the entire system. Power draw for the 950 under a torture test is 120watts when overclocked.

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2015, 09:04:53 pm
content: Quote from: Armxnian on August 27, 2015, 08:40:53 pmBattlefield Hardline at 1920x1080 on a GeForce GTX 950 uses up to 213 Watts on this August 20, 2015 article:http://www.techspot.com/review/1049-nvidia-geforce-gtx-950/page9.html

author: rdl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2015, 09:10:31 pm
content: If you don't play demanding 3D games like Skyrim, Call of Duty series, etc. then the low end video cards from Nvidia or ATI can give a decent boost over onboard video for little money and not much power. Under $50 and some are even fanless.

author: Towger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2015, 09:28:51 pm
content: Quote from: Armxnian on August 27, 2015, 08:20:26 pmOf course you can, but the budget is 400-500 Canadian Dollars. It is all about bang for buck and when you are over 40 for the least hassle.For example a couple of years ago I set about building a 4 camera HD live video mixer PC, for the cheapest possible price with second hand parts from eBay. The first lot of memory (Samsung) refused to work in the Intel motherboard, unusual in this day and age, but there was one post in a forum reporting the same problem with the exact same memory/board. The highend graphic card arrived covered in nicotine (f**king disgusting) and promptly reported its self as a lower model than advertised... The SSD drive (reconditioned from a local supplier) died after two weeks. But once all the initial problems were overcome, it has worked fine since.On the other end of the scale I have a nice new workstation arriving next week at work. Great when you can spend the companies money

author: Armxnian
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2015, 09:29:35 pm
content: Quote from: miguelvp on August 27, 2015, 09:04:53 pmThat's most likely whole system power draw. They mention on the first page that their specific model is rated for 90watts tdp.Plus, how does a 75w pcie 6pin and a 75w motherboard pcie provide 213 watts?http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/ASUS/GTX_950_STRIX_OC/28.htmlhttp://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/asus-geforce-gtx-950-strix,4270.htmlAround 110w.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2015, 09:37:06 pm
content: Quote from: Armxnian on August 27, 2015, 08:20:26 pmI guess you never opened a Dell or HP business machine. Good luck trying to fit the motherboard from such a machine into an ATX or any other case. Spoiler: It won't fit at all! I'll repeat myself: the reason those business machines are much more reliable while being super quiet than a self built machine is that every component (both components on the circuit boards and modules) has been designed and placed so it has optimal cooling. That is simply not possible with an ATX style or most standard cases due to needing to be a one-size-fits-all solution.

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2015, 10:34:59 pm
content: Not everything is SFF/USFF. I just bought a CMT (convertible minitower) HP Z210 and it's just plain old ATX layout ... some of it is still custom, but that's more vendor lock-in than anything else. There's not a lot of ways you can put the component in a tower, the only real choice is whether to put the power supply on top or on the bottom (on the bottom with an extra fan on top is a pretty good alternative to the standard).I'd not buy a SFF/USFF by the way, can't fit a full length graphics card in that.

author: Armxnian
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2015, 10:36:10 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on August 27, 2015, 09:37:06 pmYou probably just bought cheap components when you built your system and you're comparing it to a prebuilt business machine. I've never heard anyone have reliability issues when buying workstation grade hardware. I've also never heard of anyone claim that no modern ATX case can adequately cool their system and be quiet at the same time. There is an entire site devoted to that:http://www.silentpcreview.com/You can buy silent and high performance small cases:http://www.fractal-design.com/all the way to basically a refrigerator:http://www.caselabs-store.com/

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2015, 12:19:20 am
content: There has to be a first time for everything. Anyway, I have been building my own PCs for over 2 decades but decided its not worth the effort to try and contort 'standard components' and casings into something they where not designed for compared to buying a business machine which has been completely designed to be reliable and properly cooled from scratch. The standard form factors universal components and casings need to adhere to all lead back to the XT PC which didn't had the hotspots today's PC have. A modern PC needs a radically different approach than standard components offer. Using standard components to make a silent AND reliable PC is going to cost more than an off-the-shelve business machine. So the choice is easy.

author: rdl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2015, 12:45:18 am
content: I always though "business" PCs were designed and built as cheaply as possible to do what needs to be done with the understanding that they won't be in use all that long. At least, that's what my friends in IT say. They use Dell and HP because they have service contracts and broken parts are replaced overnight, not because they're super reliable. You can get business refurbs pretty cheap though because they get replaced on a regular basis because of that.

author: Aodhan145
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2015, 12:57:49 am
content: Quote from: fivefish on August 26, 2015, 08:31:17 pmHackintoshes are great. I have two. One is a HP Probook 4530s 100% stable. It is really nice having a stable hackintosh installation on a laptop. I do think mac's are still nicer. I have a mac mini.

author: Armxnian
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2015, 01:45:44 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on August 28, 2015, 12:19:20 amProve it. Here is my build:http://www.overclock.net/lists/display/view/id/6287239Cost me $2300. Find me a prebuilt that is cheaper and has the same specs. Spoiler: You can't.My motherboard comes with a certificate of reliability. I have so much faith in my components that I guarantee it will outlast any similar business machine from Dell or HP.

author: pickle9000
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2015, 02:07:39 am
content: New sales start Friday, lots of back to school stuff.

author: Arcamax
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2015, 02:21:45 am
content: hey "Armxnian" that build/list you provided me, i just realized that the cost was in us$ and i'm in Canada, Lol.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2015, 02:42:34 am
content: Quote from: rdl on August 27, 2015, 09:10:31 pmNot much point getting anything less than a 750 Ti nowadays. On top of that, I wouldn't recommend less than 2GB VRAM. Playing a video on a 4K screen with postprocessing turned on easily breaks past the 1GB mark.Best performance per dollar nowadays is the 970.

author: Armxnian
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2015, 03:00:37 am
content: Quote from: Arcamax on August 28, 2015, 02:21:45 amYeah that might be a problemIf you want a 750ti, then you're going to have to spend $600 CAD as you said in your message.400-500 CAD is still doable though without a GPU if you don't want to spend it. $400-500 is doable evenwitha gpu, but you need to cut corners on the cpu, ssd, ram.Personally I would go with a G3258, overclock it to the moon, and get a 750ti to handle 3D apps. Let us know and I can post an updated build log.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2015, 03:12:08 am
content: I built a PC a few months ago that was just over $500 and it included a 960 and a quad core Haswell, plus it's super compact for what it is. Searching for deals is the key.Specs:Core i5-4590H81H3-IMSI GTX 960 2GB1.5TB HDD300Mbps Intel dual band 802.11n450W 1U PSUI wouldn't recommend that 960, though - its thermal design isn't very good. PNY is what I would recommend if you want a reference style cooler as you would probably want in a compact build. The two fan coolers ("Hooters style", due to the two fans looking like the eyes of an owl) just add too much heat to a case that's already difficult to cool.

author: Aodhan145
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2015, 03:42:50 am
content: Quote from: NiHaoMike on August 28, 2015, 03:12:08 amHow much RAM?

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2015, 03:56:34 am
content: 8GB.

author: rdl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2015, 04:53:36 am
content: Quote from: NiHaoMike on August 28, 2015, 02:42:34 amI think a 4K monitor alone might be out of the price range. Is there actually enough source material to justify one yet? Even the most recent games seem to be aiming for 1080 at best.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2015, 05:44:42 am
content: A Seiki 4K 39" goes for $300 nowadays. A real bargain considering it's MVA and not TN like most cheap displays.http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16889522022The one I have is the 50" version that went for $450 when I got it.There are also a lot of "2.5K" (1440p) monitors that are a step in between 1080p and 4K. They're not very much cheaper than that Seiki 4K and you can downshift that to 1080p120 for gaming use (or use inverse DSR to upscale 1440p to 4K), so they're really for where you don't have the room for a 39" display.

author: Galenbo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2015, 05:51:48 am
content: Strange how everyone keeps using the word "build" here when speaking about clicking the connectors of a mass production PCB.Ok, I forgot, those 6+4+4 screws have to be fastened.I would even hesitate to use the word "assembled" for it.

author: Arcamax
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 29, 2015, 12:04:23 am
content: Hey everyone i'm not sure if this kijiji ad is legit or not, i tried to search this video card with the same/ or similar picture and could see any.

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 29, 2015, 12:13:02 am
content: GeForce 8800 is a bit ancient, not a bad card but it's 8 years old or so technology wise.Edit: I was close, 9 years old tech:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GeForce#GeForce_8_series

author: Arcamax
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 29, 2015, 12:45:08 am
content: Hey everyone hows this buildhttp://ca.pcpartpicker.com/p/CxjGTW

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 29, 2015, 01:43:37 am
content: An aftermarket CPU cooler is a bit of a waste on a dual core (and overkill on a quad core unless you're overclocking) and a motherboard that expensive is overkill for a low end CPU. The motherboard in the build I posted above was only $45. You might also be able to get away with a cheaper case. Rest of the build looks good and there's plenty of room to add a GPU later on.That really old GPU isn't of very much use nowadays.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 29, 2015, 01:51:20 am
content: I don't see anything in this thread about what his target goals are for the machine? Did I miss it?

author: Armxnian
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 29, 2015, 01:52:59 am
content: The stock cooler does the job on stock processors but the only reason to get the G3258 is to overclock it past 4GHz. If you don't get the 212 evo, the fan on the stock cooler will be at 100% under load once you start to overclock. It can also limit your overclock. With the 212 evo you can most likely go past 4.5GHz if you get a decent sample and stay quiet at the same time. Easily worth $30.The motherboard is a $65 product on U.S Newegg but for some reason it's $30 more with the discount in the build log. Try and find a different store in Canada.

author: Arcamax
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 29, 2015, 02:44:11 am
content: Quote from: Armxnian on August 29, 2015, 01:52:59 amSorry, now im not saying im confused, just mixed up in the posts here while at the same time looking at the pcpartpicker. What is easily worth $30.

author: Armxnian
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 29, 2015, 03:57:02 am
content: Quote from: Arcamax on August 29, 2015, 02:44:11 amThe cpu cooler (Hyper 212 evo). I have a G3220 in a spare rig and on the stock cooler it gets up to 55-60 under load. The G3258 will get much hotter once you start cranking the voltage to get the max overclock. At that point the stock cooler will have to run its fan at high speeds to keep it cool and will result in an annoyingly loud pc.

author: Arcamax
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 29, 2015, 06:08:56 am
content: So can i use a dab ofthisinstead of other stuff when installing the cooler. lol i forgot to include picture attachments.How good of a graphics/video card is this.http://www.bestbuy.ca/en-CA/product/zotac-zotac-geforce-gt-730-zone-edition-2gb-ddr3-pci-e-video-card-zt-71113-20h/10363137.aspx?path=0d589ed33610bb1cb7bd8b0455f29085en02

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 29, 2015, 06:34:06 am
content: The 212 Evo includes thermal compound that is plenty good even for a really hot 6 core. Of which, using a cooler that can handle a 6 core on a dual core just sounds way overkill...

author: Armxnian
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 29, 2015, 08:02:15 am
content: Quote from: Arcamax on August 29, 2015, 06:08:56 amIf the thermal paste you have is conductive then be careful not to spill it anywhere and make sure it doesn't leak outside the heatsink.That gpu is not much better than the igpu on the haswell processor. Not worth $99. You will get more value out of low end modern cards like the 750ti. AMD also has good value in the low to mid end but they draw more power and produce more heat which can pose a problem.Quote from: NiHaoMike on August 29, 2015, 06:34:06 amThe 212 evo is not designed to cool a 6 core like the 5820k, especially when overclocked. My 5820k can reach 80c under the correct test with a non aggressive fan curve on my h110i gtx, which is a much more capable cooler than the evo. The evo is meant to be used on i5 processors or lower. You might get away with cooling an 8 thread if you don't overclock much or if you delid. For an overclocked i7 you would want the beefy dual or triple heatsink air coolers or an AIO water cooler. To take a 5960x past 4.6ghz you're looking at a custom loop.The evo is overkill for a dual core, but that's not the point. It's real cheap and performs well meaning you can keep your fans spinning slower. Also, many owners of the g3258 say the stock cooler limits their overclocking potential.

author: Arcamax
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 29, 2015, 01:43:47 pm
content: Quote from: Armxnian on August 29, 2015, 08:02:15 amHere's the back side of the thermal paste i have, or should i get something like this: Arctic Silver 5 High-Density Polysynthetic Silver 3.5g Thermal Paste. It says Will not separate, run, migrate, or bleed.That graphics card i mentioned someone on kijiji wants $70 for it cause they say in there ad that they bought it yesterday from bestbuy and has the receipts to prove it and that it ended up being the wrong kind for his computer.oh and i totally forgot to mention in my post way back when (page1 or 2) that i want to run autocad (2012 or 2013 versions)

author: rdl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 29, 2015, 05:29:50 pm
content: Quote from: Arcamax on August 29, 2015, 01:43:47 pmThose applications are not terribly demanding. No need to worry about overclocking, add on CPU coolers, 4K displays, etc. According to their system requirements a 3GHz dual core CPU with at least 4 GB RAM should be plenty good. They want 128 MB video RAM and PixelShader 3.0 for the 3D graphics (which was part of DirectX 9 I think). Most Nvidia or ATI cards made in the last 5 years or so should be okay. Do some checking first, but onboard Intel HD graphics may even work.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 29, 2015, 05:38:45 pm
content: Quote from: Armxnian on August 29, 2015, 08:02:15 amI'm using one on a 3930k, though I did swap the stock fan for a nice Delta. With all 6 cores at 4GHz, the temperature gets up to 63C or so. I presume the new Haswell-Es would need a bit more, but the Haswell-E servers I have worked on get away with smaller (though very well designed) heatsinks even when they're using CPUs with up to 18 cores.

author: Arcamax
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 29, 2015, 06:12:13 pm
content: Quote from: rdl on August 29, 2015, 05:29:50 pmOr should i get the autocad 2016/2015 rather than 2013? ...the thing is i haven't used autocad in so long and i was used to the 2013 version when i took a Drafting/Cad class in Post-Secondary. I don't know how i would like it.But i shouldn't drift off topic too much.

author: Armxnian
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 29, 2015, 06:38:17 pm
content: Quote from: NiHaoMike on August 29, 2015, 05:38:45 pm4GHz seems like a low clock for a 3930k. I think the average clock for SB-E at safe voltages was 4.9-5GHz. Average for IB-E was 4.7. Average for Haswell-E is 4.5. Try your thermal tests at the highest clock you can get at safe 24/7 voltages. You will find that the evo will either limit your max oc or you will have to turn fans up to the point where the system is too annoying.Quote from: Arcamax on August 29, 2015, 06:12:13 pmWe already gave you the best price to performance build. Not much more we can do. If you want to find out how a certain component does in a certain program then go look at benchmarks. You also don't need a gpu from the start. If you find that the igpu on your cpu is not powerful enough then you can just order a discrete gpu.

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 29, 2015, 07:19:03 pm
content: $300http://www.microcenter.com/product/437565/Precision_T5400_Workstation_Desktop_Computer_RefurbishedOf course you need to get more memory and this uses ECC memory (sometimes called server memory) but you can find those cheap on ebay, buying ECC memory new is expensive.The Quadro it has is not that great but should do fine for AutoCad.Still this is just but one example, and I'm not saying you should go and get this one in particular. But 8 Xeon cores at $300 with 64 bit pro OS and free W10 upgrade is kind of hard to beatEdit: of course read the reviews as well.

author: rdl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 29, 2015, 07:34:57 pm
content: I think a refurbished business PC is a good option in your case. Try looking around here:http://www.newegg.ca/Store/RecertifiedStore.aspx?RecertifiedStoreID=41&name=Refurbished-PCs-LaptopsThe most common problems with older machines are HDD or power supply failure. I'd be tempted to just switch to an SSD from the start, they're not that expensive any more. Worry about a new power supply later.

author: Armxnian
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 29, 2015, 08:29:01 pm
content: Quote from: miguelvp on August 29, 2015, 07:19:03 pmThis is pretty good if the majority of your programs can utilize the 8 cores. Quadro/firepro is also recommended for autocad. However single threaded and gaming performance with this system will not be the best. Up to Arcamax to choose his priorities.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 29, 2015, 09:23:25 pm
content: I agree. Many programs are single threaded so getting a high clock frequency helps. My 'old' PC has an Intel i7-950 and that packs a lot of punch for little money.

author: Arcamax
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2015, 12:46:47 am
content: so then i should add an extra dap of thermal paste on the heat sink then right. will the stuff i have do or should i get this:Arctic Silver 5 High-Density Polysynthetic Silver 3.5g Thermal Paste

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2015, 01:03:24 am
content: Quote from: Armxnian on August 29, 2015, 06:38:17 pmI'm going for reliability and long lifetime, not hardcore benching. Just the fact that a fairly cheap cooler works great on a lightly overclocked 3930k is quite amazing in itself. Also surprising is how the servers get away with much smaller heatsinks even on the really hot 18 core Haswell-Es.Nowadays, I do my Folding with my GPU.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2015, 01:13:37 am
content: Quote from: NiHaoMike on August 30, 2015, 01:03:24 amThat is what I have been writing all along: a standard case has no proper airflow so the cooler is recycling it's own hot air which gets hotter and hotter. In my Dell the CPU doesn't even have it's own fan and when running it at full power (for example a compile job which takes about an hour with 10 parallel jobs) the fans don't even increase speed. You don't need much airflow to move a lot of heat but you need proper ducting to get cool air in and the hot air out.

author: Armxnian
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2015, 02:11:03 am
content: Quote from: Arcamax on August 30, 2015, 12:46:47 amThe evo already has a layer of paste that is applied by a machine. You don't need to add more paste to anything for the first install. If you remove the heatsink then clean the old paste off the heatsink and the cpu with some alcohol and apply a small dot in the middle of the cpu. Your stuff most likely work but I can't comment on performance since I've never seen or used it. AS5 is a bit outdated, there are pastes that perform better and apply as easily so might as well get that if buying new. I use GC extreme. If you can't get that in Canada then just get AS5 since everything performs close to each other, except chocolate.Quote from: NiHaoMike on August 30, 2015, 01:03:24 amHardcore benching involves increasing the voltage above the 24/7 safe point. Take Haswell-E for example where the safe voltage is about 1.3v. Run at that and your cpu will last until it's time to replace it. For benching you can go 1.35v or more if you want but you might lower the life span. Go more and you can degrade it, but you can always buy the intel tuning plan.A xeon on an evo is different than a consumer chip on an evo. They are designed for low power and low voltage operation. They are much higher grade chips. For example the 18 core Haswell-E has basically the same TDP as the consumer Haswell-E chips like the 5820k, yet it has 12 more cores. They also cannot be overclocked much. Here is the 18 core xeon:It runs at a max of 51c under load with an AIO cpu cooler and on a test bench where there is basically no air flow.Quote from: nctnico on August 30, 2015, 01:13:37 amEvery standard case has airflow. Fans in the front pull cool air in, and fans at the top and back exhaust the hot air. Hot air rises on its own, you don't need fancy air ducts. If they made such a difference, why has no case manufacturer created a case with ducts? It would be easy to have large, medium and small sizes to fit different hardware. My build puts out a lot of heat, to the point where my room becomes an oven combined with the fact that the temperature in Vegas today was 106. My build is silent when stressing both the CPU and GPU. You say there is a problem with airflow in "standard ATX" cases but there isn't.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2015, 10:18:38 am
content: Quote from: Armxnian on August 30, 2015, 02:11:03 amNo they don't. Just blowing air into a box is not a guarantee it goes where it needs to go. A CPU cooler, obstructions, other fans cause all kinds of weird airflows inside a case. The only way is using well planned ducts.

author: Armxnian
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2015, 06:55:33 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on August 30, 2015, 10:18:38 amYes it does. It's obvious where the air goes, because the fans direct the airflow, not the case.Air follows a path. Every component that needs to be cooled is on that path.If anything, ducts actually reduce cooling in such a small system because the fans on the heatsinks, if any, have to now pull air from the side instead of the bottom or top since they are restricted by a piece of sheet metal. You mentioned your Dell cpu heatsink does not have a fan on it. That's a terrible design because the only fan moving air through that heatsink is located far away, meaning there is basically 0 static pressure. If you have a high fin density radiator, which you need for a small heatsink to fit in a small case, there is a very low amount of air moving through the heatsink. Just because it works in your machine doesn't mean it will work in another or increase efficiency. Also, just because your machine is quiet doesn't mean others are not. I already gave an example of my build whixh is silent and puts out more heat than yours. There are countless other examples.If there was a problem with standard cases then the case manufacturers would have done something about it. I bet any reptuable manufacturer has air chambers and other equipment to test their designs. But so far only you have found a problem, and have no evidence (numbers) to support your claims, so there is no need to further continue the speculation, as it's already off topic from the thread.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2015, 06:58:20 pm
content: Quote from: Armxnian on August 30, 2015, 06:55:33 pmJust because someone in the marketing department drew a pretty pictureHint: turbulence

author: Armxnian
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2015, 07:15:00 pm
content: I don't think that's from the marketing department, but even if it is it doesn't mean it's wrong. You can test it yourself with a smoke pencil or the fumes from your soldering iron.Turbulence is a good thing. If helps push air past obstacles. Hot air rises and there are fans at the top meaning air is going to be exhausted and not recycled.It's not like Dell rolls their own silicon and makes their builds from scratch. They buy and assemble components that everyone else uses. If air ducts made a significant impact then someone would have done it already. There are cases worth more than entire systems so the only limit is imagination.

author: rdl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2015, 07:35:34 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on August 30, 2015, 01:13:37 amJust a guess, but the fact that the cpu doesn't have its own fan is probably the only reason there's a duct.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2015, 08:09:58 pm
content: Quote from: rdl on August 30, 2015, 07:35:34 pmNot quite right. The CPU doesn't need a fan because there is a duct which leads air from the front fan to the CPU and from the CPU to the rear of the case. Same goes for the memory. Now imagine the system had a fan on the CPU heatsink... Where does that fan draw air from? The air will probably circle around the heatsink back into the fan. This air circling around obstructs the airflow through the case so the CPU will have less cooling than in the current situation. See how just putting fans in a case without guiding the airflow is such a bad idea? A standard case maker cannot plan for having ducts to guide the airflow since they have no idea where the CPU or other components are going to be.Also the power supply sucking air out of or pushing air into the case is just bad. In the first situation the PSU gets all the hot air and pulls all the hot air from the system towards the CPU. Reverse the airflow and the CPU gets all the hot air from the PSU and the rest of the systems gets the hot air from the CPU + PSU. My Dell on the other hand has a PSU which pulls air from the front and pushes it out at the rear and carefully avoids to push or pull air from the inside of the case.

author: Armxnian
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2015, 09:42:09 pm
content: Let me explain the airflow in a standard case with a top mounted radiator for the cpu cooler. Fresh/cool air is drawn in from the front, preferably by fans. This air gets instantly picked up by the gpu fans and cpu fans at the top. The air then flows over the entire motherboard providing cooling to the components. The gpu also exhausts air, but the air is hot and rises quickly. All of the air then gets exhausted through the radiator. If the air is too hot then you can add a fan in the back to split the air into two exhaust ports. The power supply is not even in the chain in a proper case. The power supply fan draws air in from the bottom of the case and exhausts it internally from the back. It makes no contact with the air inside the case.The same goes for a heatsink mounted right on the cpu. I think this is less efficient but you will always have a fan pulling or pushing air out the back so nothing gets recycled. Plus you can add fans to the top.Ducting can help if there is significant leakage of fresh air or significant distribution of hot air. But this is not a problem in a standard computer where the chassis is so small. There is a very short path that the air has to travel. The fresh air that comes in is exhausted in a matter of seconds even with low speed fans.If you don't believe me then just check the ambient temperature of any system. They are drastically lower than what any component in the system is rated for. As long as your motherboard has decent airflow over it you are fine. The only thing that matters is the temperature of core components like the cpu and gpu. Airflow does not impact the temperature of these components by much, but can reduce efficiency. Once again, with decent airflow you are fine. If the temperature of core components is normal and your build doesn't sound like a vacuum then you are fine. Anyone can build a system that meets these two requirements. There isnoproblem that needs to be solved with how current cases work.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2015, 10:04:39 pm
content: Read on the subject called 'laminar flow' (yes this also applies to gasses) and how making small corridors (=ducts) helps to decrease turbulence and thus increase airflow. Just blowing air into a box isn't going to be the best way! Math proves that:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reynolds_number

author: Armxnian
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2015, 11:19:42 pm
content: You're right blowing air into a case would alone be awful. But you're also actively exhausting the air. In a duct, air is forced in one direction, so it escapes in the opposite direction. When you have an intake and exhaust in close proximity, like a computer chassis, you essentially create an air duct. Some air will leak but that is fine, the majority of the air will follow the path to replace the air which is displaced. Air ducts and vents are useful to carry air a long distance, like in HVAC.

author: WZOLL
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2015, 03:34:32 am
content: If you look at any professional (http://www.digitalstorm.com/vanquish-3.asp) /consumer built computer it is just fans blowing air in and out of a case with no fancy ducts or dividers. It is also important to keep in mind air pressure. A positive air pressure in the case (more air in than out) will push out dust while a negative air pressure (more exhaust than intake will suck in dust. Or just water cool it and keep the rads outside the case.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2015, 09:06:36 am
content: Quote from: WZOLL on August 31, 2015, 03:34:32 amNo air flow control = not professional. That digital storm stuff is just like any other consumer crap.QuoteI have experimented a lot with that because I have lots of dust and the direction of the airflow makes no difference at all regarding the build up of dust inside the system. I did find out that having a lot of airflow accellerates the build up of dust. My new Dell stays much cleaner than my old systems in which I needed to remove the dust every 6 months otherwise the CPU heatsink would clog up causing it to throttle down the CPU speed.

author: rdl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2015, 09:59:56 am
content: The best way to reduce the amount of dust that gets inside a computer is with filters. The only advantage to "positive pressure" is that the source of incoming air (that needs to be filtered) is more controllable. Just putting some kind of filter on the intake side of any fans that a pulling air into the case will make a big difference. With "negative pressure", air is pulled in from the outside through every available opening (other than the exhaust), which makes it pretty much impossible to keep dust out.All filters will reduce air flow, but some are better than others. Most of the time, two 120mm fans in a mid tower size case will still provide plenty of cooling.

author: Galenbo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2015, 01:04:56 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on August 30, 2015, 10:04:39 pmBut is heat transfer between component and air different between laminar and turbulent, asks the professional himself.

author: Galenbo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2015, 01:09:18 pm
content: Quote from: WZOLL on August 31, 2015, 03:34:32 amYou mean like inflating the case to 8 bar like the tank of a compressor?That could temporarily cause more air in then out.Quote from: WZOLL on August 31, 2015, 03:34:32 amAlso watercool the hard drives then.

author: Armxnian
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2015, 12:08:51 am
content: This is what you've been raving about lol?What fan ducts? Even dell doesn't use a fan duct. That cover they have on the cpu cooler is to force the air from the top mounted cpu cooler to go out the back and not into the case, which isn't a problem for a right angle heatsink or a AIO mounted in the top of the case as the fans push the air out of the case to begin with. And the components they use look pretty poor quality to make it as cheap as possible. We have about 2000 of these desktops at my school.

author: Arcamax
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2015, 11:53:41 pm
content: hi armxnian and everyone else out there. armxian i changed a few things from the listhttp://pcpartpicker.com/p/PsDxJxyou gave me, what do think of this in the attachment.

author: Armxnian
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2015, 12:07:17 am
content: Quote from: Arcamax on September 02, 2015, 11:53:41 pmWell I can't comment on the prices since I know nothing about the market value of items in Canada, even if they seem a bit high, but the components themselves look good. Read up on overclocking the G3258 while you wait for the parts to arrive, I'm sure there are hundreds of guides.

author: WZOLL
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2015, 01:52:47 am
content: No air flow control = not professional. That digital storm stuff is just like any other consumer crap.What about alienware? It is made by dell and does not have any airflow control. the last computer that I've seen with airflow control had a floppy drive. well to each their own cooling technique

author: rdl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2015, 01:56:36 am
content: Skip the aftermarket cooler, it's unnecessary. Buy the processor with the stock Intel heat sink included and save some money. You can find a case that will work fine for 1/3 the cost of that overpriced fractal design. It's nice, but you're paying a lot for style and brand name.

author: Armxnian
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2015, 04:17:37 am
content: Quote from: rdl on September 03, 2015, 01:56:36 amI've already explained that once you overclock, the stock cooler will be too loud. The stock cooler is for running microsoft office on a stock cpu, like the G3220 I have in a spare rig, not a G3258 overclocked to the max running an intensive program like Arcamax intends to do. Plus the stock cooler blows all the hot air into your case, creating the scenario nctnico was complaining about.He is in Canada, everything is overpriced. You can't compare the price of that case in Canada to other cases on a U.S site. Anything less will result in a cheap plastic case. Spending a little more on a cpu cooler and a decent case will result in a quiet build with parts you can reuse.

author: rdl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2015, 07:00:31 am
content: AutoCad does not require over-clocking. Did I miss where the he wanted to run something more demanding?I did overlook the Canadian pricing. The Fractal case is more like only double the cost of a decent case. That's probably not worth worrying about, and there could be good reasons to use an ATX size case for a micro ATX motherboard.

author: Aodhan145
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2015, 07:19:00 am
content: Quote from: Armxnian on September 03, 2015, 12:07:17 amGet a pentium K and overclock it!

author: Armxnian
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2015, 07:46:00 am
content: Quote from: rdl on September 03, 2015, 07:00:31 amNeeding an overclock or not to run a program like AutoCAD in real-time depends on what processor you have. If you have an 8 core monster then you won't need it, but you might for a weaker processor like a dual core depending on the application. I recommend the g3258 because average samples can easily reach 4.5Ghz. A 4.5Ghz haswell will tear through single threaded applications. But if you are not going to overclock, then the g3258 is a waste of money since you can get another pentium clocked the same for less.I've had various different cases over the years, ranging from $40 cooler masters to $600 case labs. My current case is the Fractal Design R5 and the features and build quality are easily worth $100. Cheap cases have plastic tabs on drive mounts, doors, pretty much everywhere, and break very easily, resulting in frustration. Case layout is also very important to manage cables to have a clean build and improve airflow, and to install or remove all of your hardware with ease.

author: rdl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2015, 08:37:22 am
content: Though most likely not necessary, that processor should overclock a reasonable amount with the stock cooler. Economize by spending under $100 for a processor only to blow another 50% on an aftermarket cooler you don't really need?I've been buying sub $50 cases for decades, they work fine. It's not like you have to take your computer apart and reassemble it every week. Just make sure you can fit big fans. Cases are personal choices though. People should buy something they like, because that's the part of the PC they'll be looking at for the next several years.edit: spelling error

author: grumpydoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2015, 10:18:37 am
content: On the subject of build (or assemble) vs buy, unless you have specific requirements it is cheaper to buy.For example you can get a low spec PC for almost less than the retail price of the operating system - eghttp://www.ebuyer.com/658955-lenovo-thinkcentre-e50-desktop-90bx001hukif on offer at £150.It has Win 7 pro installed -to actually buy an OEM copy of Win 7 Pro is about £110and I defy anyone to build a PC for £40 out of new components.Even if you buy Win 7 Home Premium that's about £70 and the remaining £80 does not get you a whole lot of stuff.Frankly even with Linux you are pushing it to get case+m/b+CPU+heatsink+fans+RAM+HDD+keynoard+mouse for £150 (EDIT: just found a CPU+RAM+M/B deal for £90 so you probably could build a PC for £150 as long as you don't have to buy an OS).I have assembled pretty much every one of the (several) PCs that I own except for some (very) small form factor ones but you have to be clear why you are doing it. Typically it is easier to save money if you want high performance or a specific choice of components.Buying a new case and a few bits to house an old motherboard when upgrading can also be a very cheap way of obtaining a 2nd PC.

author: Armxnian
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2015, 07:35:11 pm
content: Quote from: rdl on September 03, 2015, 08:37:22 amViewing multiple threads on toms hardware and anandtech, everyone says that the max oc you should expect on the stock cooler is 4.2GHz. Not a bad overclock at all, but that's with the stock cooler running at 100% fan speed on load. Have you heard the stock Intel cooler at 100% fan speed? It's not pleasant.The 212 evo is 40% the cost of the processor. With the cooler, you can get 4.5GHz, which is a 40% increase in clock speed (most likely near a 40% increase in performance since only a dual core with no hyper threading), and a quiet pc since the evo can handle a g3258 with ease. If he gets a good sample he can go more, many g3258 reach around 5GHz. With the stock cooler, he will be limited. Why give up free performance? For these reasons the cooler is worth $30.I had a cooler master elite 110 for my htpc. It fell apart in a couple of months and I threw it away. However you are correct in saying the fractal is a bit expensive relative to the other components. In most cases when building a value pc, balance is the key. E.g not spending $400 on a case with a $80 cpuQuote from: grumpydoc on September 03, 2015, 10:18:37 amIt's quite the opposite actually. Building yourself is cheaper than buying it. If it wasn't, no one would build their own computers. But they do, and the market is absolutely massive. Plus you get to customize it to fit your needs and wants, and you also learn something, which is invaluable. Seems like a good life skill, especially for someone on the eevblog.Furthermore, if you are going to compare the price of a self build to a prebuild, make sure they share the same specs, otherwise it makes no sense. For example the machine you linked. The g3258 is 2x faster than the J2900. Even more if your application cannot utilize the 4 cores of the J2900. Secondly, it has no ssd, which is one of the most if notthemost significant upgrade you can give a general purpose computer. The operating system also doesn't count. Let's be realistic here, you can get any operating system for free, officially or unofficially. M$ uses kms activators in house. W10 is a free upgrade. If you don't care about a watermark, you don't even have to license it.

author: Arcamax
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2015, 04:27:04 pm
content: Is windows 8.1 pro good for all of this. (i can get the appearance of windows 7 still right(short of)).

author: grumpydoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2015, 10:14:22 pm
content: Quote from: Armxnian on September 03, 2015, 07:35:11 pmNo, not always.There are certainly some performance points where you might save some money (esp at the higher end) but often by writing off your own time and not realising the value of warranty support should anything go wrong (yes there is a warranty on components but it's harder to argue that you didn't muck up the install).Let's just run the thought experiment at the "how cheaply can I build a PC for email and web browsing" price/performance point, I've not put a huge effort into finding things so it might be possible to do a little betterThe cheapest M/B, CPU and RAM bundle (usually the cheapest way of getting going) that I can find quickly isThis Celeron based combo£90HDD£30Case£20PSU£20Fan£5DVD£10So that's £175 without OS. The DIY build has a slightly smaller HDD, a dual core rather than quad core processor (though possibly better performing) and we still have to add keyboard and mouse as well as build the thing and install an OS. Don't forget P&P either. I think if you did go to Dabs for that lot delivery would be free but if you shop around for the best price on each item you might find having to pay several lots of P&P which can make getting that bargain something of a pyrrhic victory.Add an OEM copy of Windows 7 Home and we'll be around £240, WIn 7 Pro will make it closer to £290 which is almost twice what I could get the Lenovo for on Amazon (ebuyer seem to have gone up to £199).QuoteNo, the OSdoescount, and W10 is only a free upgrade if you have Win 7 or Win 8 already. It's a bit like saying I can build a car cheaper than Ford or GM but only by stealing the tyres because they're really rather expensive and I can't undercut them otherwise.Fortunately, these days, you can put Linux on for free with 100% honesty.However even we discount the OS I can still buy apre-built systemfor less than the separate component price above.Fair enough, I didn't spend a lot of energy searching the best deals and you might be able to shave a few quid off the BOM prices but it does demonstrate that it's pretty tough to beat the system builders for a "basic PC".QuoteThere are plenty of other reasons to build your own PC, you have even listed some perfectly valid ones.QuoteBoth good reasons to build your own.QuoteIndeed I would agree 100%.QuoteUh, hang on you're going off at a tangent here - and not following you own advice to compare apples with apples.. I just posted one system to demonstrate that you can pick up some very good deals on fully assembled systems if you look around. All of a sudden you're on about which processor it should have and the fact that it doesn't have an SDD which are irrelevant to the point being made.Of course the fact that you can specify exactly what you want is probably the most powerful argument for self-build, and if you want a high performance rig where there really aren't any economies of scale for the system builders you may well also save some cash but it's naïve to think that building it yourself will always save you money.In fact it might be quite hard to tell whether you saved money or not. Since you will end up with just exactly the system you want you might find it hard to find a suitable pre-built system for comparison.Don't get me wrong - I'm a big fan of self build PCs and have built many of them. Usually, in my case, because I could build ITX based systems which were much smaller than possible by buying off the shelf. Even that space there is a lot more choice these days. I have a very nice Foxconn Nettop which I use for a couple of small server tasks and is much smaller than I could get by buying M/B and case separately until I recently bought a PC-Engines APU-1D4 and managed to squeeze a 500G mSATA and 2TB HDD into the case (might run a bit warm but we'll see).

author: suicidaleggroll
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2015, 10:39:44 pm
content: Quote from: Armxnian on September 03, 2015, 07:35:11 pmOn the high end, absolutely. On the low end, absolutely not.It's almost impossible to compete with the low end machines offered by the likes of Dell, HP, etc. You can get an entire machine including OS from these guys for cheaper than you can buy just the OS for yourself. However, once you get into decent SSDs, big HDDs, high(er) end procs and graphics, etc., the tables swing the other way.I always build my own machines, but I don't buy cheap low end consumer crap that breaks after 8 months, so I'm almost always on the side of the coin where it's cheaper to build than to buy. And I don't use Windows, so I don't have a nearly $200 add-on that the OEMs get to all but skip, which helps with the price.

author: rdl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2015, 11:13:38 pm
content: No, you can't compete on the low end, but the low quality parts they use to build those are not designed to last much longer than the warranty.If you decide to build yourself a cheap low end machine but use decent, name brand parts, it will cost a little more but probably last a decade.

author: Armxnian
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 05, 2015, 03:40:12 am
content: Youcanfind a prebuilt that is cheaper than building it yourself. But the question is would you want to? Most of the links to prebuilts in this thread have either been machines with outdated hardware or relatively new hardware but still low performing. This is Dell's consumer line up:http://www.dell.com/us/p/inspiron-3647-small-desktop/pd?ref=PD_FamilyNone of them have solid state drives; a huge disadvantage. If you want to add one, you have to buy it yourself and install it. You also have to risk getting your key blacklisted by reusing the windows license key. This is precisely what happened to me with Windows 8. I contacted Microsoft and explained my problem and the rep ended the chat. Unprofessional/rude and most importantly a waste of time.Value and price to performance is what is important, not the overall cost of the build. A huge disadvantage of low end prebuilds is that they come with locked processors. Since most consumers wouldn't bother with overclocking, they don't invest an extra $5-10 for a "k" processor. Overclocking is the absolute best way to increase the value of your components. All it costs is 10 minutes of reading a guide or watching a video if you are a beginner.I have not seen a prebuilt from Dell, HP, or Lenovo with a G3258 for example. Once overclocked, the single threaded price to performance ratio of the G3258 is unbeatable. No prebuilt system can come close to a 4.5GHz Haswell processor.Another point I want to make regarding value is upgradability. Nearly all off the shelf components you buy for a custom build are designed to work with each other. Not the same with a prebuilt. I know this from personal experience. I had a consumer HP desktop that was sold to me by a best buy sales rep which he guaranteed to be perfect for gaming. I was a kid at the time and completely clueless about computers. After using it for a month, past the return date, I realized the gaming capabilities of the machine were non existent. Since I couldn't return it, I decided to upgrade it. The first issue I ran into was the case. The components I had to buy had to fit, limiting my options. A problem that arises with the custom chassis you get with a prebuilt, and hardly a potential problem if you buy a standard off the shelf case. The second problem, you guessed it, the power supply. Too low of a wattage for any decent performance hardware. Why? Because the max power output was basically the power draw of the system, designed to save money to the last cent. In conclusion, I ended up wasting quite a bit of money on the upgrade. The same problem would arise if you decided to upgrade at a later time. You would end up spending more money than you would have building it yourself and allowing the reuse of existing hardware.Quote from: rdl on September 04, 2015, 11:13:38 pmVery good point that we all missed. Basically everyone recommends to stay away from consumer prebuilts. The quality of the components you will get is a gamble. Most of the time you will end up with cheap components that fail after the warranty. Not the case with a self build because you can choose what you want. The components that Arcamax picked out are affordable yet of reputable manufacturers. You can read reviews on each component and get an idea of the overall quality.I have a cx430 that I got from Newegg for $20 with a rebate. I bet the build quality exceeds the power supplies used in consumer prebuilts of the same class. All the components are glued down and the main cap is even a Nippon Chemi-con:To sum up, yes you can get a prebuilt for cheaper. Why? Due to many things. Previous generation hardware, cheap components picked out to do a specific job and fail after the warranty period ends, buying components in mass quantities. Does this translate into the potential price to performance ratio, reliability, customization, upgradability, learning experience, and make it an overall better deal than a self built computer? I would say no.

author: Arcamax
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 12, 2015, 03:03:11 am
content: What is your guys opinion on this build.CoolerMasterhttp://www.coolermaster.com/case/mid-tower/n400/Amazon CM Casehttp://www.amazon.ca/gp/product/B00DKXXBU0?keywords=Cooler%20Master%20N400&qid=1442023416&ref_=sr_1_1&sr=8-1The Whole buildhttp://ca.pcpartpicker.com/p/f8qK99the other thing i want to know is will the hyper 212 evo fit in this case i listed without any pressure on case itself and/or if there is any extra room/clearance in the case. I've been looking for a nice/good case.I've read things saying people who've had this mobo have had slight bends, and someone who said there is barely any room in their case for the cooler.

author: Galenbo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 12, 2015, 08:17:39 am
content: Quote from: Arcamax on September 12, 2015, 03:03:11 amYou chose the CX430 power supply. Mine made noise, always more than the CPU cooler, sometimes really loud noise, rpm independent.Google says I'm not the only one.I had it some weeks before I mounted it, so fast replacement or return wasn't possible.So opened it, put a new 120mm fan in it, plugged in in the motherboard instead of allways-fullpower where it was.For the next build, I chose for LC-Super Silent 500 W PC-voeding 500 W ATXhttp://www.conrad.be/ce/nl/product/986276/LC-Super-Silent-500-W-PC-voeding-500-W-ATX35eur, very happy with that.

author: rdl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 12, 2015, 09:24:39 am
content: Over 20 years building PCs, I'd have to say that I've had pretty bad luck when I bought rebranded power supplies, such as Corsair, Antec, etc. but power supplies from actual manufacturers such as Seasonic, FSP, etc. are usually pretty reliable.

author: Arcamax
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 24, 2015, 06:23:55 pm
content: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/my-first-pc-build/