Is Electronics Engineering a Serious Health Hazard?  - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: VK3DRB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2016, 11:06:01 am
content: Thought I'd go out on a limb and share this as warning.I should be dead.Six foot under or incinerated. A couple of months ago I had chest pains that gradually got worse - a lot worse over several weeks. The pain was spreading down my arms too. On a Friday about a month ago, my colleagues urged me to go to a hospital or they will call an ambulance. I told them not to worry, wait until I have completed an engineering report which had a deadline that day (idiot). I promised I would check myself in at the hospital at the end of the day (idiot). I went the emergency and waited seven hours in the waiting room then walked out in frustration (idiot). It took me 20 minutes to walk 200 metres in severe pain to the car. I made to the car, drive home (idiot) then got my wife to drive me back to the hospital (idiot). When I arrived at the same hospital I demanded to be seen immediately. They suspected a heart attack and injected me with blood thinners and other stuff.To cut a long story short, the cardiologist said a had a 99% blockage in a main artery. He said most people with that would have had a fatal heart attack by now. He said I was very lucky to be alive and to buy a lotto ticket. The heart tissue being fed by this artery should have started dying and he said it was (in his words) "spectacular" that I got through. I got a stent put in and I feel fine. He brought in medical students to cite my case, "You would not believe the angiogram until I show you."So I have to change my lifestyle. No more junk food (sadly, no more spring rolls, Aussie meat pies or fish 'n chips or Maccas). And take medication for the rest of my life.It got me thinking. First of all, I am a bloody idiot for ignoring the warning signs. Secondly, my father died at 38 from a heart attack but I was in denial that I could die of the same thing. Thirdly, I have the Aussie attitude "she'll be right mate", not wanting to cause a stir - a defective mindset if there ever was one. Fourthly, does sitting on our backside all day increase the risk of heart problems?The lifestyle of a typical electronic engineer at work is sitting on his backside thinking, not moving. Even at home there is electronics and study of history, politics, science, the bigger questions of life, movies etc. No exercise. No excuse. One bloke I replaced at Tennyson Technologies about 16 years ago had dropped dead from a stroke. He was in his early 40's. He spent all day sitting on his behind laying out circuit boards. I suspect he might have had DVT. A massive stroke.So my warning to all is PLEASE listen to your body's warning signs. If something isn't right, get it checked out and don't be an idiot like me. Also, don't sit on your arse all day doing electronics. Move. Get exercise. You never see fat plasterers or bricklayers. Balance your life. In my opinion, the "best" electronic engineers are those who are unbalanced and could have a higher risk of heart attack. Has anyone researched this?I feel like I have been given another chance at life. There has to be a reason why I was allowed to survive. Maybe to realise I am a fool, need to balance my life a little more and start living - maybe embracing my extra time and doing something great for others which I could never image myself ever doing. I have a get out of jail card called a stent.My daughter lives in France, near Strasbourg. Recently she has been a volunteer teaching Syrian refugees French and English. She said it is the most rewarding thing she has ever done. Maybe it is "heads up" to me. There is more to life than NPN transistors and op-amps.I would be interested to know if other electronics people feel electronics is a bad career move because you don't actually move. Or whether they too have had health issues from sitting down all day, not moving.

author: fubar.gr
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 18, 2016, 11:35:10 am
content: I don't think electronic engineering is much different in this regard compared to other professions.Many (most?) modern professions are just like that. You are for the majority of your work time nailed to a chair.Other professions have the type of physical activity that tires and wears you down without offering any benefit, eg waiters-servers.In general, no matter what your selected profession is, you have to make some time for yourself and get some physical exercise. You can't expect to get that during your working hours.

author: edy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2016, 12:38:47 pm
content: First of all, thank you for staying alive and sharing your incredible story with us. This is another reminder and wake up call to all of us that have mostly sedentary professions. It is not only affecting EE's but almost any other desk / office job.There's a few lucky people who because of genetics can do what they want. But most people will start to succumb to a sedentary lifestyle and inappropriate diet eventually. We need constant reminders to increase our health, whether it be exercise, better diet, more sleep, less stress. The key is finding a balance that is SUSTAINABLE.Most of the time it is human nature to have a knee-jerk reaction when we realize we need to change. The problem is it can't be sustained and we fall off the goal/plan and YO-YO. Motivation only gets us so far. Willpower is angelic. The best way is to program a healthier lifestyle into your life that is slow and steady and sustainable... Long term goals, and eliminate things in your life that will be devilishly tempting (like a pantry full of sweets and other junk). Make exercise automatic, like walking each day while watching your favorite show, or to work, or biking to work, or getting up every hour and moving, or anything that you can easily do each and every day forever, and then work your way up.There is a reason why the exercise, diet and junk food industries rake in billions every year (not to mention drug companies). This is the scourge of the developed world. But it is a personal battle that many of us need to struggle with, hopefully early enough but often unfortunately through a crisis.Good luck on your recovery and wishing you good health.

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2016, 12:45:05 pm
content: In terms of cardio, I wouldn't think that Electronics engineering is different from any other office type job. The main risks being lifestyle and family risk.I think the risk comes in when you consider substances you come into contact with. I'm not thinking of solder (though I guess the jury is out on some fluxes) but solvents are an issue. I was diagnosed with a Brain Tumour and Bladder cancer within a year of each other. Now the Brain Tumour could have beenunlikelychance but the standard hospital Consultant questions for Bladder cancer were Smoking? No, Alcohol? No, ... Occupation involving solvents? ...Errr. I guess I was an over-user of flux removal solvents while prototyping (how many of us can be bothered to wear gloves?) and I remember when chemicals like Arklone (a known carcinogen) were in regular use in production environments.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2016, 04:18:03 pm
content: It is, of course, possible to findanecdotesthat "prove" almost anything. Nonetheless, it is possible tobiasthings in your favour - but there are no guarantees.I had a work colleague who was 50, tall, thin, and reasonably fit. He went off on a walking weekend with friends from the local "outdoor adventures club" and, after completing the walk, got in a taxi to go to his lodgings. He never got out of the taxi: a heart attack killed him.So, bias things in your favour, and don't betoostoic about symptoms - unless you know their cause and have dealt with it appropriately. And then accept that youaregoing to die.

author: dferyance
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2016, 04:46:12 pm
content: Having known and had connections to a few people who have had heart attacks I always think of them when encountering unnecessary stress at work. We think of police of putting their life on the line (which they do), but companies make decisions that often threaten the life of the people working there. It isn't just the sitting all day but often the high-stress caused by missed deadlines and trying to push employees to work harder and longer hours than possible. This is far more of an American thing than something in other cultures though. America has a culture of pushing people for overtime and if they aren't running around crazy there can be a feeling that they aren't working hard enough. People need breaks, rest and the ability to get away.Things like this put life in perspective. Even the worse possible problem going on at work is not worth your health or life. Work hard, but realize it is just work.

author: System Error Message
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2016, 04:52:18 pm
content: worlds oldest electronics hobbyist (EEVblog covered this) above 100 years old. Proof that electronics is healthy

author: helius
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2016, 05:34:44 pm
content: Quote from: Gyro on August 18, 2016, 12:45:05 pmI had never heard of Arklone but it appears to be the same as Freon TF. If that's the only solvent you regularly used, you can rest easier, as it has never been considered a carcinogen.QuoteCalifornia has set its goal for FC-113 in the water supply to 4 ppm. This is much higher than the levels for other solvents: the goal for trichloroethylene is 1.7 ppb.

author: bdix
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: August 18, 2016, 05:53:39 pm
content: Wafer Fab is full of dangerous chemicals and high energy equipment. The CVD always gives me the creeps. The lab has got arsenic, cyanide, hydroflouric besides all the solvents. I've seen the end caps blow clear off the diffusion furnaces under the right conditions. I remember someone getting shocked by the E-beam power supply (he's fine). Exciting stuff. Oh and I just had a heart attack saturday morning but I don't think it had anything to do with electronics.

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2016, 05:55:08 pm
content: Quote from: helius on August 18, 2016, 05:34:44 pmActually no I wasn't, the Arklone was from years back, the production department of the company I worked for at the time used to stink until they installed extraction!No the sort of stuff I was using was standard off the shelf aerosol can stuff, flux and flux removal solvent (you know, that nice citrus smelling stuff). At certain rushed times, I used to experience dried out fingers from loss of skin oils.As tggzzz points out, it's possible to "prove" almost anything with anecdotes. Hard statistics are much more difficult to find. However if I was still doing it, would I be more careful? Most definitely. The Consultant told me that hairdressers have a higher rate of bladder cancer due to the products they use, and of course there's a well known link with testicular cancer in garage mechanics due to used motor oil. (Edit: you can absorb all sorts of dangerous sh*t through your skin).All you can do is take a step back, look at what you are doing and ask yourself whether you could do it safer.

author: MT
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2016, 06:31:30 pm
content: Quote from: VK3DRB on August 18, 2016, 11:06:01 amDont be to harsh on your self, because its so easy to see all the personal dents/faults afterwards. But im pussled that you had to wait for seven hours at an Aussie hospital in the condition you where in? Usually when one enters emergency there are nurses there asking you what your problem are?!Thanks for your interesting story, reminds me to go out for a walk and eat some tuna/beans/annanas/seeds/shrimp/low fat olive oil sauce/ salad!

author: Tomorokoshi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2016, 08:48:07 pm
content: Quote from: System Error Message on August 18, 2016, 04:52:18 pmI figured it was the Vitamin Pb!

author: hans
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2016, 09:50:54 pm
content: In terms of physical activity, I think EE can be one of the best office style jobs out there. I usually am not too fond of the "stare at your computer for 9 hours straight" days. To me it seems like software engineering or "general purpose office work" is pretty much just that for 40+ years of your working career. These days are usually very taxing on my back and/or hip muscles, causing sciatica pains. Although painful and very unpleasant, probably not very life threating. I think the Diclofenac medication is potentially more deadly/damaging than the condition itself.I am grateful whenever I have a day when I need to stand up and move around to get little bits and pieces, move test gear into place for a test, field testing, etc. Although tiring and for me limited to some degree. I haven't won the genetic lottery exactly either, considering my walking disorders that cause chronic pains; it doesn't mean completely eliminating movement is any good either. "You Rest, You Rust". Despite the troubles I keep on training my walk/cycle times. Although 30 to 45 minutes of 'casual' movement is all I can manage post-op, in addition to gym 2 times a week, it's still a lot better than none at all and sitting in a chair for 17 hours a day.It's unfortunate though that many colleagues at places I have worked for rather take their lunch break in an office chair, instead of going for a 20 or 30 minute lunch walk. I have found these to be wonderful: in addition to some movement, it also reduces stress by clearing your mind, fresh air and really taking asolidbreak from work (especially if youdon'twalk with colleagues that are workaholics), rather than typing an e-mail or reading the companies internal newsletter which probably reminds you of inner frustrations at some dick manager.I personally think however stress is the major factor caused by work. The body is an amazing device, usually giving you tons of hints and signs when your stress level is overflowing and that you should take a step back. However, I have found at most of my employers there is little room for such feelings, or it's very hard to express them. Most often what happens is I wanted to "get the job done" to stay in good standing with my manager, or I get sucked in completely to a project by own interests/motivation that exceeded my energy levels.I unfortunately learned the hard way when to back off and take better care. In my experience your boss won't give a damn once you're at home sick by being overworked or worse. If the therapists will say recovery is "long" (i.e. more than 1 week), they are likely reconsidering your position anyways. So all that extra stress is not worth it for them.At the company there was a senior designer that was in his mid 50s. Unfortunately due company's financial climate he was asked to leave the company. However they still asked he finished the project that month. 1 week before his leave he was finishing up the project files and documentation for handover. That monday his brother called in that he had a stroke that night and was in hospital, barely able to talk. The week before he too had the usual signs like headaches, feeling absent, pain in is arm, etc. It's a somewhat sad story, I personally the believe the man had a though time expressing his feelings and probably was a 'victim' of work stress.Half a year later I also was asked to leave on the same terms. In hindsight I regret. It causes such a stressful and wrenching work relationship; on the one hand you're asked to finish the project (+ this and that) "for them"; all before set end date, and you're expected to perform till that date. After that they got their stuff done and you're unemployed, though luck. Next time if something like that would happen I would be fired straight away. To me it sounds a bit like the "American" way of doing things, but some things do make sense. If you aren't needed in a company anymore, they should stand by their statement and it should not be dependent on what is convenient for them. It's not worth the 1 or 2 months extra salary it might offer.I must have survived because I am 30-odd years younger than said colleague. Unfortunately I think most of us EE's are typical beta's; interested in all things with numbers, but not really outspoken (or plain ignoring them) in your own emotions and feelings, even to yourself. In the past experiences I think I have learned bit by bit, but due to my revalidation program I am glad to have the chance to learn more.

author: trophosphere
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2016, 11:06:01 pm
content: Quote from: hans on August 18, 2016, 09:50:54 pmI agree that stress can be a big contributor to cardiovascular disease. It is actually the third one in a list of modifiable risk factors (in order of higher association). First two are dyslipidemia and smoking. According to theINTERHEART study, psychosocial stressors accounted for ~30% of attributable risk of acute MI.

author: PartialDischarge
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2016, 07:05:03 am
content: Glad to know your better and improving.That said it all comes down to your personality, some people are just naturally inclined to practice some sports like hiking, cycling or swimming no matter what job you do.Also I find that jobs in which you're in touch with the customer and their problems (shipping delays, quality problems), could be *really* stressing, as these are positions with strong pressure from upstream bosses.

author: Kilrah
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 19, 2016, 07:56:40 am
content: I consider these things to be more or less random. For every generalization you can make there are always notable exceptions... I've seen people living the "healthiest" life of all get wiped like nothing at young ages as much as 80-year old overweight heavy smokers doing perfectly fine.I just don't care, and live life the way I feel like without worrying a way or another. Whatever must happen will, and is not in my control.

author: VK3DRB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2016, 01:56:43 am
content: Quote from: MT on August 18, 2016, 06:31:30 pmI went to the clerk and told them of the pains. She ordered me to see the triage nurse who questioned me. I told her when I walk I get terrible chest pains. She told me to take a seat and I would be attended to. After seven hours of waiting, I walked out. The cardiologist was horrified when he found out. He took notes and will be doing an investigation. It is illegal for not to be attended to immediately if you have signs of an impending heart attack. After I was admitted I was given best of care by some terrific nurses and specialists - the best care in the world. No argument there.It reminded me that in April 1980, the local doctor ordered my mother to be admitted by ambulance to the Royal Melbourne Hospital, as she was in need of intensive care. But after arriving at the hospital by ambulance, the hospital gave her some oxygen and medication and ordered a taxi for her to come home. When the local GP found out the hospital discharged her, he was quite upset. He called another ambulance and tried to call the hospital which would not answer the phone for about an hour. When he finally got through he demanded she be admitted in no uncertain terms. Eventually they relented and she was admitted and she died in hospital a few weeks later.It appears to me from both scenarios that hospitals' front desk administration is below par. Their reception systems are pretty bad. Once you get beyond the reception and triage, things get better from there.A young Aussie I knew named Richard Gribble got stabbed in the arm in the so-called People's Republic of China. He went to the hospital but because he had no money on him, they literally let him bleed to death in a hallway in the hospital. The Chinese medical staff could not give a damn. I know the inside story from Richard's sister who visited us a couple of weeks ago.http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/taiwan/archives/2006/02/11/2003292503So I cannot really complain when you compare Australia to third world countries like China which has toxic culture of "To Get Rich is Glorious". In the end I got through, but yes, I could easily have died walking back to the car that night.

author: System Error Message
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2016, 02:09:36 am
content: Quote from: VK3DRB on August 20, 2016, 01:56:43 amIn china you can get away with hit and run if you kill the victim by running over them even with witnesses otherwise you end up with a hefty debt.

author: PartialDischarge
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2016, 05:32:04 am
content: Quotefk, amazing. I coulnt believe it at first but its true, hit and kill they call it. Started searching and look what Ive found, what a bunch of soulless animals, I couldn't watch the whole thing as its too depressinghttp://youtu.be/JHtIWddAHUU

author: jitter
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2016, 06:00:42 am
content: Quote from: VK3DRB on August 18, 2016, 11:06:01 amWow, what an ordeal. Happy to hear your survived.QuoteThis is what it boils down to in every aspect of our lives. Unfortunately most people need to be taken to the edge to realize that health (physical and mental) should always come before wealth.QuoteNot just in electronics, any job that requires someone staring at a screen or sitting still for the better part of their lives.I know, I know, it's hard to say "no" to some things... And by that I don't just mean nice food, also pressure from bosses to work overtime etc... Requests from friends to help...I'm in my early fourties, and I have decided (more or less driven by physical and mental signs that I'm on the wrong path) to assign more "me-time" to myself. Unfortunately, a lot of the world around me doesn't understand and thinks I'm selfish, or something like that. But I'm going on with it nevertheless, perhaps they'll be in the situation themselves someday when they suddenly understand why I'm doing what I'm doing...

author: jitter
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2016, 06:16:12 am
content: Quote from: MasterTech on August 20, 2016, 05:32:04 amIt's a very shocking video of an event I'd rather forget. But then I realize that this sort of thing happens all around the world, not just in China, otherwise we'd have no understanding of the term "hit and run" over here.I would not call all of them "soulless animals", you should see the reaction of the mother. The soulless animals are those that run over the child and move on, and you can see they realized it before they went on their way. All I can hope for is that they feel at least some guilt for the rest of their lives.But how many times have you heard of people steering clear when they see a mugging happening? There are videos of people lying in busy streets with almost all passers by ignoring them until a good samaritan comes along.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 20, 2016, 07:07:20 am
content: In my IT days I had a customer (internal to the business) who was very conscious of his health. He was quite fit and trim - and was well known for his bike riding.He retired and joined a volunteer bush fire brigade. Within a year (it might have been just a few months) he was attending a fire and just collapsed from a heart attack. He did not make it.

author: Kilrah
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 20, 2016, 07:19:31 am
content: Quote from: jitter on August 20, 2016, 06:00:42 amYep, for me it's the whole society standard of "work your ass off all your life, then once you're old and can retire you may finally get to feel free... IF you're still there and able to do more than drag yourself on the ground that is, otherwise well, too bad for you" that makes no sense at all."Me-time" has always been my priority, everything else can wait. I could go tomorrow and wouldn't have the feeling of having missed anything.

author: jitter
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2016, 08:46:50 am
content: Your reply just reminded me of a cross-eyed Dutch stand up comedian.In one of his shows he went pas the front row and pointed to people and saying "you're going to make it" and "you're not going to make it". He was driving home his point that 1 out of every 4 people dies before retirement. His point was of course to enjoy life while you can as postponing that until "later" means there's a good chance youneverwill...

author: hans
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2016, 12:18:18 pm
content: I think everyone knows a story in their community that pretty much has the same story line: a person worked hard for over 40 years to pay the bills and spend his savings for what is best for his family. Once they retire they hope they can enjoy their pension, vacation trips and overall spare time. But then within 2 odd years they become sick, because of either a stroke, cancer or physically worn out.I also hear the depressing black-and-white thinking of:Work for 40 hours a week plus 2 hours travel each day, so little spare time (practically 50-60 hours, or 7AM to 7PM out the door for work, including lunch breaks). The time left you spent on the usual chores, like maybe the gym, social events and then plump down on the couch to watch some television before (or while) you sleep. Weeks flash by like they are nothing. 1 or 2 times a year you can take a week off work, for example summer holidays and Christmas. This goes on for 40 years long.Then once you retire you finally have the spare time, but maybe not the body and energy to chase everything you'd wanted to do.I'd think that engineers have a few advantages and disadvantages in our work. The work we do is often quite stressful, because of managers, deadlines, complexity of the work and the pressure to do it right "the first time" (basically). OTOH, the pay also reflects that in most cases, most often we are not physically worn out by the work. Weigh all the aspects, and I think overall engineers can probably afford many luxuries over the average joe. For example, I know many engineers that are fine with working 32 hours a week, still earn more than average joe, and enjoy their extra day off every week.The pro's: you can have long weekends or only work for 2 days in a row, which is great considering how mentally demanding the work can be. In the Netherlands anyway, we don't have a flat-rate tax so working 80% FTE probably still yield 85-90% of the full time pay, sometimes even more if you cross an income border for some tax cut. Additionally, you got 1 day extra of spare time; which is great to maybe do something fun or relaxing, or just simply very convenient to do house hold chores and still have time left for a weekend trip.Cons: you still lose on some pay, some employer may simple not hire you because they seek someone who works his ass off (i.e. 50+ hours a week) and you may be considered a "2nd rank" employee at work because others are more part of the furniture at work.

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2016, 12:48:02 pm
content: A while ago a neighbor had a heart attack too. She's a nurse and knew instantly what was wrong with her. Fortunalety it wasn't a serious heart attack and she's well again. Not so much luck for my other neighbor. Cancer. She (62, housewife) fought for two years and lost a few days ago. It can happen to anyone.

author: jitter
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2016, 05:43:09 pm
content: Quote from: hans on August 20, 2016, 12:18:18 pmOften the requirements list "no nine to five mentality". If I see that, I know enough.