Help me choose equipment for a community electronic maker lab - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: ddavidebor
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2013, 09:16:56 pm
content: Here in italy a local association is building a open fablab with cnc, lasercut, 3d printer, normal bricolage tools, music, auditorium and a lot of things like this.I've the responsibility of found the equipment, tools, spare pieces...So, for the equipment, the various must are:-good quality-hight bang per €-available in europe-new, not usued-simple to use, robust.Probably we needPower supply (triple, robust... I like the hameg HM7042-5)Oscilloscope. (rigol 2000 series ones)Multimeter (portable ones, a few, maiby cheap brymen)Function gen (simple to use, any suggestion is accepted)Soldering station (simple, ROBUST, cheap tip... Analog hakko maiby, or pace, ersa, weller... Any suggestion? Must be robust)Desoldering station (is not necessary, medium quality, suggestion accepted)Hot air station (medium quality, atten?)Bench fume extraction (any suggestion accepted)Lcr meter (with esr, cheap but solid, no cheap china ones)Pcb etching machine... Suggestion accepted.Anything else, suggestion assembled.So... Should we do some brainstorming?

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2013, 10:20:09 pm
content: get a bench multimeter ... handhelds do have a tendency to disappear from public places ...

author: Rasz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2013, 10:10:07 am
content: Quote from: free_electron on May 23, 2013, 10:20:09 pmthere are ways to deal with that problem

author: ddavidebor
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2013, 06:02:30 am
content: Thanks, this is a real problem.Bench meter are less user friend and more expensive.Probably we will use the brymen... Something like a couple of the tiny cheap ones...A bench one will maiby come later.Remain a lot of indecision about function gen, soldering station, lcr meter, bench fume extraction.Any suggestion?

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 25, 2013, 07:17:35 am
content: The lowest Brymen I would think would be good for a hacker space would be the BM807. It has TRMS and temperature. The next step up would be the BM257. I think I would recommend 2 or 3 BM807s to loan out and a BM867 locked away to check the other meters and for higher accuracy under supervision when needed.I also think that one problem might be fuses. It might be a good idea to have some spare fuses, especially the low amperage ones, stored in a safe place, and a coupe of spare test leads too.

author: ddavidebor
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2013, 11:29:03 am
content: Blow 5€ fuse is not funnyI love the minipa et 997 because has a ptc for uamp protection... But can not be bought

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 25, 2013, 11:53:59 am
content: Blowing up the meter and possibly injure the user is not funny either. Some people will likely with work with mains or large batteries, so safety is a concern.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 25, 2013, 12:01:56 pm
content: Quote from: ddavidebor on May 23, 2013, 09:16:56 pmAnything new and cheap is most likely coming from China. There have been a few around the $200 mark or so that have gotten decent reviews. Names that come to mind are CEM, Applent, Mastech and IET, although I'm sure I've missed some.Don't forget plenty of leads, probes, clips and adapters. You need to wire instruments together somehow, and they can be surprisingly expensive. I might also imagine these could be considered consumables in a hacker space, since they will get damaged or disappear.

author: jpb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2013, 12:39:27 pm
content: For the bench power supply I'd recommendhttp://www.test-measure.co.uk/I got my power supply from him. They are new but old-model power supplies from TTi. I think that they have 90 day warranty. He is also open to offers.The supplies are shipped directly from TTi. The one I got already had a European plug - I use an adapter to use it in the UK.The only drawback is power supplies are heavy so shipping to Italy might be expensive though he says on the web site:"For European destinations there are excellent rates available. "

author: ddavidebor
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2013, 03:22:12 pm
content: @alm yes and that is another real problem. Lucky here tme.eu , wich is our reference shop has very good price.Power supply are the only gear on we don't have problem...For the woldering station...I've just search and we really can't buy an hakko.So maiby a fu**ing weller, with his orrible weller legacy color...Ersa are exxxxxxpensive, jbc too.

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 25, 2013, 09:07:35 pm
content: You will also need:Safety glasses: get caught not wearing them and get thrown outFirst aid kit and eye wash stationFire extinguishersKnibbling toolsDrill and bitsHacksawsSmall hammersFilesScrew driversWrenchesPliersSide cuttersBench visesMagnifiersGood lightingDONATION BOX!

author: ddavidebor
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2013, 09:51:13 pm
content: Yes yes thanks i know this things...I'm asking your help to choose the equipment.

author: TimNJ
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2013, 09:55:30 pm
content: UNI-T UT612 is a good LCR meter. It's around $130USD. Autoranging and everything.

author: TimNJ
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2013, 11:44:41 pm
content: For a soldering station, you really can't beat the Hakko FX-888 for the price. Digital or analog, they are both good.LCR Meter, I just posted about, but I think the UT612 is a pretty good one considering the priceI know Weller makes an extraction system, but it's very very expensive. You'd better off getting some standard box filters, some flexible ducting, and some sort of fan.Hot air stations are pretty pricey from a "reputable manufacturer" most likely because they are lower volume than traditional soldering stations. I'd honestly just get the cheap ones from eBay.

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 25, 2013, 11:47:04 pm
content: For a good power supply, and to get a good multimeter as the master meter in the shop:http://www.tme.eu/en/details/e3630a/multichannel-power-supplies/agilent-technologies/#

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 25, 2013, 11:57:55 pm
content: Quote from: TimNJ on May 25, 2013, 11:44:41 pmGood for the price in the US or the price in Europe? European prices appear to be about $200.

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 26, 2013, 01:47:43 am
content: http://dx.com/p/hanko-fx-888-70w-soldering-station-ac-220v-126505Shipped anywhere in the world!

author: Rasz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2013, 02:00:25 am
content: Quote from: Lightages on May 26, 2013, 01:47:43 amDX comments suggest this is a knockoff (terrible build quality)

author: ddavidebor
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2013, 11:50:26 am
content: We need to buy in europe, so no uni-t, no hakko uNfortunately....

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2013, 12:00:19 pm
content: You should probably wire the place with some E-stop buttons.So the power can be cut quickly if someone does something stupid.

author: ddavidebor
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2013, 12:11:52 pm
content: Quote from: Psi on May 26, 2013, 12:00:19 pmAwesome idea.... Thanks.

author: ddavidebor
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2013, 12:17:29 pm
content: Quote from: TimNJ on May 25, 2013, 11:44:41 pmYes i've seen... The hot air station start from 700€. Si think we're gonna with the atten.

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 26, 2013, 06:54:28 pm
content: Quote from: Rasz on May 26, 2013, 02:00:25 amYou are right. I didn't look enough. DX is getting rather bad for hiding bad reviews now too. Time to ignore them.

author: ddavidebor
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2013, 06:56:13 pm
content: So... The main problem now is the etching equipment...Cnc router are damn expensive, 10k€++Chemical etching is the only way to go...But do it in safe and cheap way is very difficult, and is difficult to do it whitout practise...

author: ddavidebor
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 29, 2013, 05:14:56 pm
content: I think this should be a good esr meterhttp://www.tme.eu/en/details/u1733c/lcr-meter/agilent-technologies/#400€ is not bad...

author: ddavidebor
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 29, 2013, 05:18:38 pm
content: Also this look like an interesting gear for a lab of this type, so people can try the right component before buy it.http://www.tme.eu/en/details/ex380400/decades/extech/380400/#

author: ddavidebor
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 29, 2013, 05:20:05 pm
content: We've found an hakko reseller near where i lives.... So the soldering station is definetly the hakko fx-888

author: ddavidebor
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 29, 2013, 07:38:35 pm
content: OhohohohThe problem now is...What function generator?

author: Dave
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 29, 2013, 07:51:59 pm
content: Rigol waveform generators are pretty good. There are plenty of models to choose from, but I'd go for DG4062.You can find themherefor a fairly reasonable price. Bear in mind, that the prices listed there don't include VAT. You do get free shipping, though.

author: ddavidebor
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 29, 2013, 08:07:58 pm
content: Thanks, i will watch dave review

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 29, 2013, 08:18:21 pm
content: Hope you will post some pictures of this hacker space when it's all done.When is the opening scheduled for?Oh, and what sort of budget do you have for all this equipment? There are lots of choices for laser/CNC router at drastically different prices.

author: ddavidebor
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 29, 2013, 09:20:18 pm
content: I really don't know.The big dudes had not decided yet the budget for the E-lab, nor had sad the opening date.Sure i'll post photos in a new topic.

author: ddavidebor
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 29, 2013, 09:21:21 pm
content: The real problem is the equipment to do pcb. Must be cheap, easy to use and safe.Router are expensive, and chemicals are not easy nor safe.

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 29, 2013, 10:31:58 pm
content: Quote from: ddavidebor on May 29, 2013, 09:20:18 pmMy advice would be to find out what sort of budget you are constrained by, because if they say "2000 Euro" that will be a lot different equipment than if they say "20 000 Euro". There are a lot of tradeoffs you could make to stretch the budget further, or splurge on one or two important pieces of equipment where allowable.Do you know what the location is and how big the space is? What about the kind of projects to be done and the expected number of people who will use it? You just want to be sure you're not spending a lot of time chasing rainbows, as we say.

author: Dave
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 29, 2013, 10:39:40 pm
content: Making your own PCBs with toner transfer and etching it with a mixture of water, hydrogen peroxide and hydrochloric acid is very simple, cheap, reliable and relavitely safe. You just need to use common sense, work in a well ventilated area and wear protective clothing. That's it.

author: ddavidebor
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2013, 05:18:17 am
content: Thanks, the most inreliable and insafe of all the ways to do it...

author: Bored@Work
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2013, 07:34:04 am
content: Quote from: ddavidebor on May 30, 2013, 05:18:17 amLook for a local board house, and cut a deal with them.If you can't trust your users with chemicals, then all of the typical hobbyist methods are out of the question. I am not aware of a closed chemical system for etching PCBs. Doesn't matter if toner transfer or drawing with a sharpie on a blank board.Some companies offer laser systems. But that isn't as simple as it sounds. You e.g have to make provisions for smoke absorbing and filtering. And they are expensive.That leaves mechanical ways, i.e. milling. But that is complicated to set up and get to work, you need dust filters and the bits can get rather expensive.So again, cut a deal with a local board house. No own issues with the chemicals. No issues with through plating. Easy to get solder mask and silk screen. Less limitations in terms of track sizes and clearance.

author: Dave
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2013, 09:54:43 am
content: Quote from: ddavidebor on May 30, 2013, 05:18:17 amWhoa, way to be a cunt to a person, who tries to help.About unreliability: Have you ever actually tried making your own PCB with the method I mentioned? I have, plenty of times. I can tell you that if you don't push the limits (keep the traces at least 0.25mm wide, holes at least 0.5mm in diameter, vias at least 0.9mm and clearance at least 0.2mm), every board comes out perfectly.The lack of safety? Every tool can be dangerous if handled improperly. If you educate yourself about the potential risks and hazards, you can avoid them. When someone new comes, you teach them how to work with the chemicals properly and no-one gets hurt. The same damn rules apply to soldering irons, mills, lathes, drills, or just about any other tool that can be found in one of these community maker spaces. If you are afraid someone might get hurt, better avoid creating a maker space, someone might trip on the door mat and get a boo-boo.

author: ddavidebor
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2013, 01:21:00 pm
content: Was not to offend you, but really is not the best solution.There is not a simple solution.Maiby a alredy done bath for the chemicals...But what, i've seen only exensive bath...

author: DigiGal
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2013, 10:11:11 pm
content: I'd recommend picking up an Electronic Design Specialists CapAnalyzer 88A Series II, it's made in the USAproduct link hereandinternational distributor list here