How does water actually kill electronics?  - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Beamin
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 07, 2019, 12:42:20 am
content: This is one of those things we don't think about just saying: "water and electricity don't mix." But then you see some videos on the internet of people taking things like Nintendo cartridges and other boards with IC's on them and washing them under the kitchen sink or under water. I know that some devices are safe as long as there is no power but what actually happens? Are the IC plastics hydrophilic and they short internally? Also water isn't a very good conductor around 3 to 5 v so its not like you are dumping steel wool into the circuit. A microscope might help to see what happens. You would think it would be easier to make devices like phones water proof.

author: mariush
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 07, 2019, 12:58:15 am
content: Impurities in water make it conductiveElrctricity flows through copper traces - if water drop touches two locations where pins are soldered , or exposed copper pads/tracer are, electricity can flow between those points.One of those points may not be designed to tolerate the voltage of that other point - for example on a motherboard, 12v from a fan header could go into an input pin of a chip that can handle maximum 3.6vAlso as conductive it also acts as a wire with some resistance... so a signal could be affected by that resistanceAlso oxidation and corrosion - first can add oxides, affect resistance of a trace, corrupt signals. the second can result in broken traces, thinned traces etcLouis Rossman (the guy that fixes apple laptops) hs lots of videos with water damage, here's a (not so) random one

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 07, 2019, 01:00:35 am
content: Water itself is (mostly) harmless*, it's what is dissolved in it that is the problem. When the water evaporates it leaves dissolved solids behind that can be corrosive and damaging especially to modern miniature circuitry. Which is why if you get something wet, washing it immediately in distilled or deionized water is essential to prevent corrosion happening (after first removing batteries and other power sources).* Some items can be damaged by water such as loudspeakers and things like potentiometers that are not sealed.

author: helius
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 07, 2019, 01:15:56 am
content: When electric fields are present, water acts as an electrolyte to speed up electrochemical reactions (corrosion) and electromigration.When no power is being applied (no batteries, etc), water does very little. It is the major part of cleaning processes, after all.

author: rs20
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 07, 2019, 01:19:22 am
content: Experiment:Two jars. One jar contains two nails, just sitting in the jar. The other jar also contains two nails, but those nails are connected to a 5V power supply.Leave for 1 hour.What you'll find is that the first jar contain two perfectly fine nails. The second, will have a severely corroded nail. IIRC.Basically, you don't want electrolysis to be occurring in your circuits.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 07, 2019, 01:27:14 am
content: you also have stuff soak in water then be heated in a rate which causes moisture to leave in excess of the rate of absorbation of water while its powered off, so you get cracks because the material is stretched past yield points or whatever you want to call it (where the natural time constant of the material would allow it to maintain structural integrity, but if the water loss exceeds its natural stretchyness it cracks).At least I think so? never really read anything concrete here. I could be making this up. I want to know actually. please comment

author: Red Squirrel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 07, 2019, 01:27:42 am
content: The water will conduct, although poorly, but at small distances like between pins of ICs it may be enough to draw enough current to basically be a short. It can of course cause transistors to turn on when they should not. Ex: a H bridge, if the wrong transistors are on at the wrong time it will short out the circuit. Water could potentially cause that to happen by bridging the gate or what not. At least that's my guess of one of the causes... making transistors turn on at times they should not.Of course there is also the impurities, and electrolysis effect that can then cause corrosion.I thought I was smart and I dropped a primary lithium cell in water before disposing of it, I figured if I discharge it 100% slowly there's less chance of it shorting out when it's sitting in the "to dispose" bin. Well it just corroded and got super nasty and ruined the container it was in.Come to think of it I should try that with an AA battery and do a time lapse, could be a fun video.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 07, 2019, 01:59:46 am
content: Quote from: rs20 on May 07, 2019, 01:19:22 amActually it should be a three-way experiment, with a third jar using distilled water. Huge difference between that and tap water. (Or, god forbid, sea water!)

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 07, 2019, 03:53:18 am
content: Incidentally, electrical may be fine -- AC substations in underground vaults are often subject to flooding, and are often able to continue to operate. Key here is, AC does, and undoes, most of the ionic migration that occurs during the waveform. With almost no average charge delivered, very little corrosion occurs.I would have to guess that medium voltage circuits would still be shorted out, or at least would get very hot in the process. Arcing would break out as water levels approach nearby conductors. So, I'm not sure quite how far this applies. Maybe it's just for 120/240V circuits, maybe up to 480 too?Electronics however, between the use of DC, small conductors (traces, pins, wires..), and sensitivity to unintended current paths, there's a lot of stuff that just fails outright when splashed with moderately-conductive water, either immediately, or in minutes to hours time.Tim

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 07, 2019, 05:10:09 am
content: As long as it is not powered up while wet, water does not necessarily do any real damage. I've recovered numerous devices that were flooded, left outside, or otherwise soaked and written off, in most cases just rinsing things out and allowing it to thoroughly dry out is sufficient.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 07, 2019, 05:59:19 am
content: Quote from: james_s on May 07, 2019, 05:10:09 amKey word ^ ^ ^Note: This includes all nooks and crannies, such as under any and all SMD components, wiring harnesses and hot-snotted capacitor collections.

author: apis
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 07, 2019, 06:09:28 am
content: Yes. Remove batteries. Take it apart and clean everything (and remove any remaining water). Let parts dry on top of radiator for a few days. I suppose there might be more effective ways of drying things (like placing it in an oven at 120°C perhaps?) but a few days atop the radiator usually does the trick.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 07, 2019, 06:18:19 am
content: Quote from: apis on May 07, 2019, 06:09:28 amBe careful about what people call a radiator!Short answer - if you can't put your hand on the surface you will rest the parts, then it is too hot.

author: apis
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 07, 2019, 06:35:17 am
content: Quote from: Brumby on May 07, 2019, 06:18:19 amYeah, I have big old cast iron hot water radiators, they never get too hot to touch.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 07, 2019, 03:42:01 pm
content: Quote from: Brumby on May 07, 2019, 06:18:19 amI've been surprised at how hot the radiators in the UK get. I think that with the on-demand hot water heaters that seem to be really common there, it makes sense to "pulse" large amounts of heat for brief periods. In USA and continental Europe, everywhere I've lived with radiators* used low-temp continuous hot water radiators, which seldom exceed hot-to-the-touch.*With the exception of one apartment that used steam radiators, but they were shielded baseboard heaters. Touching those HURT!!!

author: Beamin
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 07, 2019, 04:10:23 pm
content: Quote from: rs20 on May 07, 2019, 01:19:22 amI made a laden jar out of a glass bottle, al foil, and copper wire that went into the salt water. Over a summer the alligator clip attached to a wire corroded to the point it fell apart and the copper sticking out of the lid turned completely green like a car battery terminal. I tried this with a real cap and nothing happened. Must pick up a charge through the air onto the foil. As a cap it didn't hold much voltage so it was surprising to see that. Must happen inside wet electronics to an extent.

author: Beamin
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 07, 2019, 04:33:01 pm
content: Quote from: NiHaoMike on May 07, 2019, 01:57:43 amAs he was potting that cap I was thinking "OK now put rev. polarity to it and see if the potting compound explodes". Then he did just that. Great minds think alike.

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 07, 2019, 04:51:29 pm
content: Quote from: Beamin on May 07, 2019, 04:10:23 pmI think you will find this happens with bare copper and salt water, no capacitor needed.The chemistry is interesting: as it happens, chloride has a nasty crush on copper, so that when concentrated enough, it dissolves it very easily. It can't oxidize the noble copper metal, but the abundant oxygen in the air is able to, slowly but surely. The result: a crusty green deposit of copper oxychloride.Chloride also has a thing for aluminum, which a number of other anions do not. This makes the interesting contrast that, if you dump aluminum shavings into a solution of blue copper sulfate, nothing much happens; but into a concentrated (green) solution of copper chloride, it reacts so violently that the suspension boils and froths! Or if you start with the first (sulfate solution), and add a catalytic amount of chloride (salt solution, HCl acid, etc.), the same reaction is triggered.Tim

author: Neilm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 07, 2019, 07:39:45 pm
content: One thing that can also happen if a PCB gets wet and is not properly dried is the PCB can delaminate and you can actually get fungus growth on it which will also help delaminate the PCB.

author: jmelson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 07, 2019, 10:54:00 pm
content: Water is not the problem. DIRTY water is the problem, and it doesn't have to be very dirty to be conductive. Circuitry with higher voltages have more trouble, but even just 5 V can cause corrosion if the power is on and the water doesn't dry out quickly.I've tried to repair some phones that got run through the washing machine, it did NOT go well. There were traces eaten off the board with only a 3 V battery available to power it.Jon

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 08, 2019, 02:53:15 am
content: Even if the water is perfectly clean, the device isn't -- salts leach out of plastics, dust contains salt, even metals dissolve (though almost undetectably).Tim

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 08, 2019, 05:18:17 am
content: There are arc lamp pumped lasers that immerse the entire cavity including the lamp and electrical connections in rapidly flowing water. The key is that they have a fancy deionizing system that keeps the water very pure so that it isn't conductive.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 08, 2019, 05:28:07 am
content: I was thinking of a similar summary (perhaps a bit more wordy.)Quote from: blueskull on May 08, 2019, 05:23:28 amFoot note: Some battery powered items - like smartphones or anything else with a "soft" power button - are always on whenever the battery is installed. Doesn't matter if you've turned it "on" or not.

author: TerraHertz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2019, 10:34:19 pm
content: Water tentacles, of course.The precise anatomical details are not fit for a family publication.

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 10, 2019, 04:35:40 am
content: Let me get my sword.

author: Beamin
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 29, 2019, 01:23:10 pm
content: Quote from: blueskull on May 08, 2019, 05:23:28 amHow does CO2 react with a metal oxide? CO2 is pretty stable and doesn't react with much since it is "already burnt". most go from oxide to hydroxide with water. Also the remaining O2 would have to react with more metal as O2 gas wouldn't form without more energy being added to it.Reminds me of how people on youtube try to tell people they can make chlorine gas from salt water using electrolysis. The water breaks down long before the ionic bond does. Simple electronegativity really. Those comments always start with "One time I made..." "I used to make..." No you didn't.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 29, 2019, 02:32:36 pm
content: Quote from: Beamin on May 29, 2019, 01:23:10 pmBy chemical reaction.QuoteCO2 is an acid anhydride and is somewhat reactive and corrosive.QuoteThey also go to acid salts with an acid. Carbonic acid is a weak acid and more complex reactions occur involving both carbonate and hydroxide groups, but reactions do occur.QuoteWhat remaining O2?QuoteYou can indeed get chlorine from electrolysis of brine.QuoteHave you tried it?QuoteMaybe you should try the experiment before judging others?

author: Beamin
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2019, 09:56:36 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on May 29, 2019, 02:32:36 pmI have tried these. I have even worked with carbonic acid in chem courses in college. From that experience I state that CO2 is quite non reactive, if it was it would destroy your teeth when you drink soda (the phosphoric acid in coke and brown "cola" products is what destroys you teeth since it dissociates twice; acting like you exposed them to acid twice, yes we put a child's tooth in coke and after 2 days it was gone) How do you make free Cl2 from brine/salt water solutions? You would have excess Na that would react and complicate things. Every time you see on youtube for example; cody's lab and nile red, so we can all watch the experiment, they never make chlorine using brine, they usually use HCl and TCA (pool tablets have a C,N,O,Cl benzene ring structure shaped like TNT.) Why would they go through this trouble if they only need salt and a battery? The energy needed for a covalent bond to break is a few volts while an ionic salt bond is much greater.

author: bloguetronica
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 31, 2019, 12:08:43 am
content: Quote from: Beamin on May 29, 2019, 01:23:10 pmCO2 is not very inert once in water. It ionizes in the form of carbonic acid when dissolved in water and it may corrode copper. Add electricity to that, and you've got a reaction where the more positive traces get corroded. Even without electricity, carbonic acid corrodes copper. This is why copper roofs get a green patina over time: it is because this reaction forms copper (II) carbonate. This reaction can be accelerated in the presence of oxigen, where copper (II) hydroxide forms to combine with the carbonic acid.Kind regards, Samuel Lourenço

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 31, 2019, 04:31:02 pm
content: FYI, the hydration constant is pretty small, i.e., most CO2 is present as dissolved CO2, not as carbonic acid.The further ionization (carbonic acid to bicarbonate) is also quite modest.As it happens, the equilibrium between CO2 and H2CO3 is pretty slow. This is easily seen when titrating a carbonate salt. For this reason, your body has:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbonic_anhydraseTim

author: Beamin
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 31, 2019, 05:17:09 pm
content: Quote from: T3sl4co1l on May 31, 2019, 04:31:02 pmHow do you know everything about everything? Seriously I have as much knowledge as you but only in very narrow fields. So I don't know shit really. Here is an interesting fact where the bi in bicarbonate comes from:"there is twice as much carbonate (CO2−3) per sodium ion in sodium bicarbonate (NaHCO3) and other bicarbonates than in sodium carbonate (Na2CO3) and other carbonates"

author: apis
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 31, 2019, 06:50:55 pm
content: Quote from: blueskull on May 31, 2019, 05:32:17 pmMost, but clearly not everyone.

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 31, 2019, 10:53:31 pm
content: Quote from: Beamin on May 31, 2019, 05:17:09 pmI take a strong interest in scientific subjects and have read voraciously in them. I've also taken college level courses in most of them.I wouldn't have particularly cared to do equilibria myself, but college-level courses cover that early and often. It's a powerful tool: rather than simply noting some things react with others, and some things precipitate and some remain soluble; instead, we can calculate precisely which ones will happen, and to what level. All the relevant constants have been measured*, and we merely need to put them together with simple ratios.For example, iron hydroxide has a very low solubility constant, hence why it forms such tenacious stains. Aluminum hydroxide is quite insoluble as well, but it has strong formation constants for a variety of ions. The concentration of which vary with pH. So that, while aluminum hydroxide is for the most part very insoluble, just a small change in pH, in the direction of acid or base as it happens, can dissolve enough to make environmental problems in waterways and soils.*The problem of course comes when you can't find the one constant you're looking for, in the literature. Or you can't find all of them for a given system, because some elements form many complex ions, and you need to know the relations between all of them to fully solve for the concentration of any one of them (much as you need to know all the resistances and connections in a circuit to solve for the voltage at just one point). In that case, you may have to do more basic research to find those missing constants yourself (e.g., set up the system and measure the concentrations of ions -- it helps if the ions are colored so you can use a simple method like spectrophotometry to monitor them).Tim

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 01, 2019, 12:18:26 am
content: Quote from: T3sl4co1l on May 31, 2019, 10:53:31 pmI have a direct concern with that subject now in my job as a chemical engineer. It turns out that doing calculations with ions and electrolyte systems is superficially straightforward (there are volumes of publications on the subject), but there are still many areas where the calculations are hard and uncertain, where the models and data are not adequate to describe problems of industrial interest. It remains a challenging field.

author: retrolefty
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 01, 2019, 01:53:56 am
content: Quote from: james_s on May 08, 2019, 05:18:17 amIndeed, at the refinery I worked at before retirement I had some responsibility for maintaining a very large VFD drive (like 7.5KV at 700 amps). It used 144 SCR devices that mounted uninsulated to copper tubing heat sink system. It too required a water deionizing system with pumps/filters/alarming to maintain it's non-conduction even at this high a voltage.Pure deionzed water IS a good insulator, it just takes time and effort to keep it so.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 01, 2019, 03:16:25 am
content: Quote from: Beamin on May 30, 2019, 09:56:36 pmSaltwater pools are probably the most common type in Australia.They fill the pool with tap water, then pour a couple of 10kg bags of common salt (yes, the same stuff you use on the table) into the water.The pool water is, over time, pumped through the filter, then through a cell which has about 12v DC applied to it, & back into the pool.It does produce chlorine, although the precise form it is in, I don't know.It shows up on testing strips as "chlorine" & when the system is working well, is all that is needed to maintain the pool in safe condition.I qualify this as "when the system is working well", because we thought we had a "win" when we bought our house, as it had a large pool (67500 litres), which the previous owner had installed.It turned out, he got "done" as the pump, filter & chlorinator combination was undersized for that sized pool.We had all sorts of problems with it over the years, as our big gumtree delighted in dropping "gunk"into the pool.The chlorinator couldn't handle all those impurities, even after we scooped all the large gunk out, so we often had to dump chlorine into the water.We, thus, found out why our house was a similar price to the others without pools, & had been on the market longer.People who have had one pool, avoid them like the plague!

author: Beamin
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 01, 2019, 04:15:28 pm
content: Quote from: vk6zgo on June 01, 2019, 03:16:25 amWell I am more curious but still skeptical now, but you would have excess Na to deal if you are making Cl with which would turn to NaOH in water and generate heat, it would also generate H2. Heat, H2 and electricity... seems like you would try to avoid such things, especially in a consumer unit. Still don't understand how the bond in water wouldn't break before the nacl ( the water technically breaks the bonds but it is in an equilibrium like as if were a solid mass), it would also raise the ph of the pool.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 01, 2019, 04:44:35 pm
content: Quote from: Beamin on June 01, 2019, 04:15:28 pmThe goal is not to make chlorine, but to make hypochlorite:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ElectrochlorinationAs to making chlorine from brine, this is an industrial process that has been around since the 19th century:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chloralkali_process

author: Beamin
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 01, 2019, 07:56:27 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on June 01, 2019, 04:44:35 pmI see that makes sense... WAIT this is the internet; I CAN"T BE WRONG!!!OMG UR SO stupid I have done this expirament many times when I workeding form NASA proving that you are wrong. The paper is titled:www.mit.edu/mit-harvard/stevenhawking/noelectrolysis/proving_ian_wrong.htmand shows how stupid U r...And thats how you write a proper youtube comment in accepted APA style/format (Asshole posters of America)

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 02, 2019, 02:49:38 am
content: Quote from: IanB on June 01, 2019, 04:44:35 pmYes, it comes back to me now------it's quite a while since we got rid of the pool!!When we had to "superchlorinate", the stuff we added was sodium hypochlorate.The info that we got from the Pool shop also mentioned thst the chlorinator produced sodium hypochlorate.The tank for removal of the hydrogen gas, referred to in the Wiki, is in this case, the pool itself.Interestingly, this is a continuous process, as the water is flowing across, (or, in reality, through) the electrodes.More on topic, my current Fluke 77 was dropped into a bucket of salty water, whilst I was attempting to use a method of finding the salt saturation via DC resistance.Standing there with the meter in one hand, the leads in the other, & a piece of paper with a formula on it on the ground, weighted down with a calculator, something had to give.I quickly dried the Fluke externally, opened it up, washed any areas the water had reached with tap water, then with "Methylated Spirits".It's still working, 20 plus years later.

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 02, 2019, 05:39:46 am
content: FYI, a whole family of ions exists: chloride Cl-, hypochlorite ClO-, chlorite ClO2-, chlorate ClO3-, and perchlorate ClO4-.Electrolysis generates some of the higher ions (mainly chlorate), but how much depends on the pH, concentration, and a few other tweaks. (Chlorate cells normally run at high concentration (starting with saturated brine) and about pH = 6. They emit some chlorine gas, but it's a very minor component -- more than enough to smell, but hardly enough to be worth capturing.)At high pH, hypochlorite is favored; at low pH, chlorine gas is favored. Hypochlorite may also be favored at low concentration, I don't know?Probably, pool electrolysis still generates some chlorate, which can be broken down by lowering the pH (which creates the particularly nasty ClO2 gas, but at these concentrations it'll stay fully dissolved; at low pH, it reacts with chloride to make chlorine again). I... don't know if this is actually a recommended procedure for pool maintenance; if it is, then that's the reason.There are other chemicals that supply "chlorine" (as hypochlorite):- Plain old bleach is around 6% sodium hypochlorite, with a good 6-8% chloride, the pair being the result of dissolving chlorine gas in NaOH.- Solid pool chlorine (Pool Shock?) is usually calcium hypochlorite, which, I forget if it's more-or-less pure, or also a mix with CaCl2 (but probably not, because it's stable in air, whereas CaCl2 is hygroscopic), but it's got quite a lot of chlorine content (~30%??).- The other common option is TCCA (trichlorocyanuric acid), or something similar to it; this is an organic compound, something like chlorine stuck together in solid form with the help of N2 and CO2, which it all returns to when dissolved.Tim

author: Beamin
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 02, 2019, 01:18:59 pm
content: Quote from: T3sl4co1l on June 02, 2019, 05:39:46 amSo I have learned that as far as the Cl2 from electrolyzing brine yes it can be done BUT you have to have a special membrane and setup as well as other things potentially like mercury to make it work. Those people that say they did this in their kitchen with salt and a battery were full of it.Fun fact: That nasty ClO2 you speak of is known as MMS or MAgic Miracle Solution and cures everything from Aids to malaria and autism. Well it doesn't really but it has killed some people and made everyone else that survived very sick.https://youtu.be/7ZU7OL5MRHIIf you think that's bad see all the people on youtube that think drinking turpentine is a good idea. Even when you spell out how dangerous it is they tell you that you are wrong.But it's cleansing me of the toxins when I have projectile explosive diarrhea and vomiting, those are the toxins caused by chem trails

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2019, 07:59:27 am
content: I’ve recently seen a few videos about those quack cures, the mind truly boggles. “Turpentine is safe, it’s just distilled natural pine sap!”And yeah, the formaldehyde in a vaccine (less than contained in an apple or produced in your body anyway) is daaaangerous, but high dose bleach is healthy...And then there’s black salve...