owon budget scope rebadges and firmware updates - is it a dealbreaker? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: kokodin
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 06, 2024, 11:26:10 pm
content: HelloI been recently contemplating my old scope replacment, and i came across some good deals for rebadged Owon scopes, both 2 and 4 channel versions of sds1000 series. The thing is they smell kind of custom sauce, at least the 4 channel variant because it exists in 100mhz and 150mhz (and they are the same price) there is also a rebadge of 2 chanel one "new from store expostion" for half regular price. From my knowledge Owon never made 4 channel one in any bandwidth other than 100mhz under theyre own brand though. Hanmatek 2 channel is even wierder , bandwidth is 110mhz.So the question is, does buying rebadged owon makes me locked to whatever firmware version that is on the device at the moment? Or does rebadged owons accept regular mainline firmware for the scopes they are rebadged from? Does the custom sauce bandwidth model downgrade to 100mhz or is it unlikely because it may just have some better components baked into input stage.I wouldn't bother with those but they are basically in chinese prices in local stores after tax and import fees already adedSo what do you think? Did anyone tryed firmware updates on cdek, vevor, hanmatek or any other rebadged owon product?

author: coromonadalix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 07, 2024, 12:44:41 pm
content: i would say if they get fw updates or notif not stay awaymy 2 cents

author: RogerG
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 07, 2024, 07:42:07 pm
content: Owon and FW updates will never be friends.Don't rely on updates, you'll wait forever.

author: J-R
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 07, 2024, 07:56:40 pm
content: If you just need a cheap scope to look at a trace, then you could make the case that there are plenty of options worse than Owon (Lilliput). However, a better choice would be Rigol or Siglent along with some liberation.

author: kokodin
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 07, 2024, 08:44:26 pm
content: Thanks i kind of figured this much after i was enlighten by first reply, and checked owon webpage for firmware downloads for sds1000 series. And there was a category for it but noting inside.i know the good brands but i kind of need a scope once every blue moon and so far analog single channel from the 70's was enough, but i kind of want single shot trigger.And now it was owon 4 channel sds1104 clone or hantek dso2d10. Because they were the same price and at my limit of how much i want to spend on a thing i will need once a year, or owon sds1102 clone if i want to skimp even more. I watched many reviews of the cheap scopes over last few days and for some reason nobody mentioned firmware in owon case, and they kind of always just worked. Both measuring stuff and just displaying waveforms. While hantek was buggy. But most of the rewievs was from 2-3 years ago, so after reading some more it seems that hantek really do iron bugs out with time in firmware updates, so i was curious about owon and i kind of get my answer.Since i am not going to risk buying that directly from china, because i kind of don't want to pay import fees and taxes afterward. i am kind of limied to few options from local distribution where all that was already included in the purchase price. Featurewise those 3 made the most sense, for rigol, sigilent or even uni-t i would have to pay extra.tanks or replies i really apriciate it

author: IC_Toaster
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 07, 2024, 09:16:20 pm
content: Owon released a new series SDS200 recentlyThey are avalible on Eleshop.eu:https://eleshop.eu/test-measure/oscilloscopes/all-oscilloscopes/owon-sds210-oscilloscope.htmlWith signal generator:https://eleshop.eu/owon-sds210s-oscilloscope.htmlBut there are no reviews yet.

author: kokodin
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 08, 2024, 09:24:01 am
content: Well yes but the cost is exactly the same as hantek from my local stationary electronic store, while not being 4 channel like rebadge , plus it is sold from european website with 2nd language being french, so shipping most likely wouldn't be on a 2nd day. Might be even just an european front store while shipping from china. So guarantee and potential import fees are the issue.The point of a topic was are rebrands of owon supported , but the answer is they barely support theyre own. So that alone makes the brand less desirableI can buy rebadged sds200 localy under a brand peaktech but they got cut down and overpriced

author: Aldo22
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 08, 2024, 09:49:48 am
content: Quote from: kokodin on November 07, 2024, 08:44:26 pmBut Poland is in the EU?Rigol-DS1102Z-E is now cheap. If I didn't already have the Hantek, I might buy that now.https://www.batronix.com/versand/oszilloskope/Rigol-DS1102Z-E.html

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 08, 2024, 11:18:01 am
content: Quote from: kokodin on November 06, 2024, 11:26:10 pmI would stay away from the "150 MHz" SDS1104 version. It is easy for the manufacturer to slightly open up the lowpass filter in the front end -- but the scope still samples at 1 GSa/s total, i.e. only 250 MSa/s in four-channel operation. That's obvisously not enough to meet the Nyquist criterion, and you will see aliased signals if frequency components above 125 MHz are present in the input signal. Hence I would argue that the "150 MHz" variant is a bad idea: Looks better on the sticker spec, but actually gives you more problems than benefits.Apart from that, it probably makes no difference whether you buy OWON or a rebadge, if OWON themselves don't bother with firmware updates anyway...

author: kokodin
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 08, 2024, 06:33:25 pm
content: Quote from: ebastler on November 08, 2024, 11:18:01 amReally? i kind of expected them to slap 2 front ends from 2 channel version and only cut each channel in half when using both channels from one front end. and keep them at full speed when using one from each can. The memory depth has been doubled compared to 2 channel , probably not something they could get away without, but it is still puny 40 kilosamples. Sadly i can't find that info in user manual.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 08, 2024, 07:21:53 pm
content: Quote from: kokodin on November 08, 2024, 06:33:25 pmNo, you can be sure that there is only one ADC in the scope which is shared across all the channels. Even the better manufacturers (Siglent, Rigol) design their 8" entry level scopes like that. Those fast ADCs cost actual money!The better scopes specifiy this clearly in their datasheets, e.g.: Sampling rate per channel 1 GSa/s for 1 channel, 500 MSa/s for 2 channels, 250 MSa/s for 3 or 4 channels. With the OWON, you can trust that the "1 GSa/s" which they give as the only spec is themaximum totalsample rate the scope will give you. If they had two GSa/s ADCs, they would certainly have specified 2 GSa/s!

author: kripton2035
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 08, 2024, 08:26:29 pm
content: Quoteno, eleshop is a reputable european seller, just like batronix. you will not get any import fee if you buy from poland from them.

author: kokodin
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 08, 2024, 10:55:41 pm
content: Well reputable store or not, shipping cost and potential service are still international. bartronix calculated lowest shipping cost for that rigol at 26 euro or more depending on the option. Eleshop price is listed excluding vat. My local shipping is 2 euro or free, also from reputable stores only located here. And they have 20% sale on all hantek now so the 100mhz model with function gen ends up around 200 euro deliered.(195 if i walk there 40 minutes to pick it up) no function gen 190, 2 chanel owon-rebrand 160-170 (online), 4 chanel rebrand 240 like non discounted hantek (also online).it kind of doesn't look so good for owon anymore thanks to "black friday weeks"

author: Aldo22
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 08, 2024, 11:12:01 pm
content: Quote from: kokodin on November 08, 2024, 10:55:41 pmAs I said: I would go for the Rigol at the Batronix price.But just one tip: If you take the Hantek, thenbuy the cheapest one!So theDSO2C10. The hardware is exactly the same and the “upgrade” is a joke. (Readhere: 2D15 conversion: Sets your model as 2D15)

author: kokodin
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 09, 2024, 01:13:49 pm
content: "Buy th cheapest one"okI went to the store and picked up DSO2D10 from store exposition because they gave me better price than DSO2C10 that was already discounted. i was only asked to keep the price a secret. but the deal was good. Scope is still treated as brand new under store 2 year guarantee, just stood in the glass box for few months and oryginal probe was missing so i got 200mhz uni-t one "upgrade" for free.On the owon rebrand topic, i was diging around some more in specs of the 1000 series, i was wrong about record length it is 10k and 20 k not 40k so even less. But there is one oryginal 2 channel owon that is set to be 200mhz bandwidth. but it is still 1gs/s and still only 10k samples buffer. i wonder how a triangular wave would look on it at those conditions, and if it's firmware could hack lower spec models because they limit the number of samples in scopes with bandwidth lower than 50mhz quite drastically.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 09, 2024, 01:24:15 pm
content: Quote from: kokodin on November 09, 2024, 01:13:49 pm(a) 200 MHz bandwidth in atwo-channel scope with 1GSa/s is alright. You get 500 MSa/s in dual-channel operations, so the Nyquist criterion is still met -- although it's a bit marginal. If you feed a 200 MHz triangular wave into a scope with 200 MHz bandwidth, it will look like a 200 MHzsinewave, because none of the higher harmonics make it though the low-pass filter. That's actually just determined by the input bandwidth, not the sampling rate.(b) Not sure I fully understand your idea with the firmware hack. But if OWON sells a lower-spec model with lowersampling rate, it is very unlikely that its ADC and acquisition hardware (probably an FPGA) can be run at 1 GSa/s. Again, fast ADCs cost actual money. OWON would use a cheaper, slower ADC in the cheaper scope.It is quite common for scope manufacturers to offer a few related models with differentbandwidthspecifications which are based on the same hardware. But I have not come across a family of scopes with differentsampling ratespecifications while being based on the same hardware.

author: kokodin
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 09, 2024, 02:29:33 pm
content: (a) I know what you mean, i was just wondering if that 200 is just a gimmiky label you pay extra and , the front end tapers in analog bandwidth the same as 100mhz version but they unintentionally overbuild it and capitalizing on that by "making new model" or is that different hardware in the same case.I know what sampling rate is, i am just bad at expressing my thoughts in a language i technically never learned past 3 years in highschool :].Triangle wave would be a good test if the analog bandwidth or the sampling give up first.(b)Model No. Channel Bandwidth Sample Rate Record LengthSDS1022 2 20MHz 100MS/s 10KSDS1052 2 50MHz 500MS/s 10KSDS1102 2 100MHz 1GS/s 10KSDS1202 2 200MHz 1GS/s 10KBasically i was wondering how did they cut down the bandwidth and sampling rate in the lower 2 removing one adc if 1gs have 2, underclocking them or putting pin compatybile lower grade parts. the absolute cheapest owon rebadge i can buy is something like sds1102 model only with 110mhz bandwidth.Can it be made 200mhz or is the front end tuned to be barely 110mhz for the rebadge, would they make so much effort to spin separate batch of mainboards or just flash different firmware. Since they make multitude supermarket brands i don't think they care too much to tune every single one to indyvidual specs. but who know, maybe every factory batch of mainboards is a different revision.

author: Aldo22
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 09, 2024, 03:48:46 pm
content: Quote from: kokodin on November 09, 2024, 02:29:33 pmWith the Hantek DSO2000, this is only a question of the probes that are supplied.There is onlyonescope hardware, as far as I know.The bandwidth... well.The important thing is the sampling rate.I bought a100MHzDSO2000.I trust the amplitude up to about 20MHz sine, because I can verify it up to that.But It can also measure 200MHz with both channels enabled.The screenshot shows 1s persistence so that you can judge the jitter.I don't think it's too bad for a $150 scope. The Fnirsi 1014D doesn't manage that.But yes, that is the limit and the VPkPk/VRMS measurement means nothing there.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 09, 2024, 05:15:23 pm
content: Quote from: kokodin on November 09, 2024, 02:29:33 pmOops, there goes my statement "I have not come across a family of scopes with different sampling rate specifications while being based on the same hardware". I guess I have come across one now... It seems very likely that these scopes are indeed based on the same acquisition hardware. OWON apparently considered it a good idea to artificially limit the sampling rate for market segmentation reasons.The scopes from Siglent and Rigol can be "upgraded" to higher bandwidth via a software key only. The front-end amplifier has a switchable lowpass filter already built-in. It is somewhat likely that the OWONs are built the same, but I guess we don't know for sure.Whether OWON has taken further precautions to disable cross-model firmware updates, we don't know either. They could easily do that via a model ID stored in flash ROM somewhere, or encoded on the PCB via a few resistors or jumpers which get populated differently depending on the model number.So unless you find specific "hacking" info somewhere, it's a bit of a gamble to buy a lower-spec'd model in hope of upgradability.

author: kokodin
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 09, 2024, 05:50:50 pm
content: Yes i was kind of hoping i find that info here, or leave it if someone kind read my thread and dump the firmware somehow for comparacy or database building. The idea of multicolor multi brand gathering just trigger something in me, like rebadged fiat 600/ zastava 750/ seat 750, or my collection of mini sewing machines.Aldo22 Fnirsi 1014D seems to be a joke compared to the other two alternatives. I seen test video where bandwidth tapered drastically at 4mhz, so either the guy didn't terminated the signal properly, used 1x probe or the 100mhz is a case print with no much corelation to reality. To do my investigation with my hantek i had to limit both probes to 20mhzbut i see your test to be impressive showcase of what can be done with the scope. I don't think i will ever use it that way. I need a scope mostly when adjusting analog tv's from my colection or for arduino project, now i needed to test if microcontroller in 30 years old amplifier runing at 4mhz was alive. And it was, only talking in bursts of data then being silent. Fault was elsewhere, now everything works. But i wouldn't find the fault with my analog junk.It would be even better if i had 3 channels but oh well, so far i am happy. Owon would probably work too even with very limited sampling in 4 channel mode.