Hacker triggeres all 156 emergency sirens in Dallas, Texas - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Homer J Simpson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 09, 2017, 12:55:25 am
content: At midnight no less.http://www.cnn.com/2017/04/08/us/dallas-alarm-hack/index.html

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 09, 2017, 01:11:14 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on April 09, 2017, 01:07:43 amThis is the closest I can find for dealing with naughty kids.

author: xmo
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 09, 2017, 02:03:30 am
content: I have no knowledge of the system in Dallas, but in many cities the sirens are activated by a radio transmission similar to the way a pager is alerted.It would be fairly simple for a radio knowledgeable person to record the signal when the sirens are activated by the system, then replay the signal at a later date .Such a "hack" would be virtually impossible to trace retroactively. It's the sort of thing a person could get away with...once.

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 09, 2017, 02:04:12 am
content: QuoteNot very good at "Emergency Management" if it took them the best part of 2 hours; not much sense of urgency in that response at all.QuoteSo as well as poor security we also have poor resilience. Killing off the "entire emergency system" to stop the sirens implies that they had to knock out other parts of the emergency systems too. I hope they learn some lessons from this but I suspect that the response will be more about bluster and punishing someone, as it usually is.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 09, 2017, 05:00:29 am
content: While I'm sure it was annoying for those who live in the area I'll admit it made me chuckle. Sounds like something I would have done when I was a teenager if I'd had the means. We don't have any sort of warning sirens out here though.

author: MarkS
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 09, 2017, 07:08:46 am
content: This isn't funny and is no prank. Whoever did this needs to be caught and punished. This area is known for high tornado risks. These sirens are the only way to communicate the danger to the entire population and it must both work flawlessly and be trusted.

author: hendorog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 09, 2017, 08:41:16 am
content: Turned out to be quite a good test in the end - they now know they have zero ability to control the sirens at short notice in an emergency situation.Knowing that they can remedy it, and if there are a couple of brain cells spare perhaps review the system for other shortcomings.Somewhere, someone will be muttering 'I told them this would happen and they didn't listen'

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 09, 2017, 09:34:26 am
content: Quote from: hendorog on April 09, 2017, 08:41:16 amThose are exactly my thoughts. Pranks like these reveal problems which can be catastrophic in different circumstances. I hope it has been a good wakeup call for the people responsible for the system.

author: MarkS
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 09, 2017, 09:39:31 am
content: I don't know how it works in Dallas, but here in Oklahoma City, they test the sirens every Saturday at noon. This wasn't a test and it wasn't necessary. Sure, it exposed a security vulnerability, but at what cost? The population MUST trust this system. They have to be confident that if the sirens are going off, either the system is under test or there is a legitimate emergency. This event undermines that.I am curious if this has anything to do with T-Mobile's continual issues with Dallas' 911 system? Neither the city, nor T-Mobile can figure out why this is happening. Possibly a multi-stage attack on Dallas' emergency management systems? But to what end?https://www.engadget.com/2017/03/16/t-mobile-ghost-calls-to-911-linked-to-two-deaths-in-dallas/

author: donotdespisethesnake
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 09, 2017, 09:52:28 am
content: All the reports are blaming hackers, but there is no evidence that it was due to hackers and not a malfunction. I'm not saying it wasn't, but the assumption by the authorities seems to be "it wasn't any of us, so it must have been a hacker".QuoteAnother lesson to learn, 911 was jammed because thousands of people rang up to ask "are we being attacked?" because of concerns about "what is going on overseas".

author: MarkS
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 09, 2017, 09:59:58 am
content: Quote from: donotdespisethesnake on April 09, 2017, 09:52:28 amThe 911 issues I was mentioning are different. For reasons that no one can figure out, when a Dallas area T-Mobile customer dials 911, multiple calls are placed simultaneously and then hang up. 911 dispatchers are required to call back any hang ups to determine if there is an actual emergency. This results in dispatchers spending inordinate amounts of time calling back a person multiple times, even though they may still be on the phone with another dispatcher. This is breaking the system and people have died.

author: hendorog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 09, 2017, 10:02:55 am
content: Quote from: MarkS on April 09, 2017, 09:39:31 amOf course you are correct, but when emotion is removed there is a learning in just about anything.

author: MarkS
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 09, 2017, 10:05:07 am
content: Quote from: hendorog on April 09, 2017, 10:02:55 amI agree. These systems should be secure. It is just that we shouldn't be learning about any vulnerabilities after deployment. Once in the field, they have to work.

author: RoGeorge
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 09, 2017, 10:14:56 am
content: Huh?! So US cities have hundreds of sirens, like in the WWII? Strange.Can somebody from US tell what is the normal usage for those sirens, and what are people suppose to do when they hear them, please?

author: hendorog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 09, 2017, 10:20:19 am
content: Quote from: MarkS on April 09, 2017, 10:05:07 amUnfortunately with the tech we have today secure with no vulnerabilities (meaning perfectly secure) is not practical - and perhaps possible only with extreme effort. Certainly not cheap anyway.The question however was not if it was perfectly secure, instead was it even slightly secure. Reading between the lines it sounds like the internet facing part was reasonably secure but the RF interface was relying on security through obscurity.The fact they couldn't turn it off was interesting. Either the triggering signal was still present and so it kept on firing up, or it really was hacked or it was just a bug.

author: hendorog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 09, 2017, 10:22:38 am
content: Quote from: RoGeorge on April 09, 2017, 10:14:56 amTornadoes were mentioned. Presumably you have time to find a storm shelter - or put your head between your legs and kiss your ass goodbye.

author: MarkS
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 09, 2017, 10:34:43 am
content: Quote from: RoGeorge on April 09, 2017, 10:14:56 amOnly cities in the Midwest, or where sudden, unpredictable and deadly storms can form in minutes. These are NOT air raid/war sirens from WWII.Quote from: hendorog on April 09, 2017, 10:22:38 amYes, these are predominately bad weather sirens. The weather in the Midwest can be very unpredictable and tornadoes can pop up with little warning. These sirens go off once cloud rotation is spotted or once a tornado is reported to have touched down. It's a system designed to work when all others fail. You don't need a phone, T.V., radio or even electricity (the sirens have backup power).

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 09, 2017, 10:54:13 am
content: Sounds like the first trial of a Russian plot to destabilize the US though sleep deprivation!

author: TerraHertz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 09, 2017, 10:59:15 am
content: Quote from: MarkS on April 09, 2017, 09:39:31 amSo, the right time to attack Oklahoma City, is Saturday at noon?QuoteTherewasa legitimate emergency. All the bloody sirens were going from 11:40pm to 1:20am, and no one could stop them. I don't know about you, but I'd find that extremely disturbing.I don't suppose anyone on the forum lives in Dallas, and can tell us what it sounded like?

author: PA0PBZ
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 09, 2017, 11:23:11 am
content: Quote from: RoGeorge on April 09, 2017, 10:14:56 amWe still have about 3800 sirens all over the country (Netherlands), although they will be decommissioned in 2020. It's slowly being replaced by a cell phone alert channel.Testing is every 1st Monday of the month at noon, and if they go off at a different time you are supposed to watch regional television or radio to find out what's going on.I think it's a leftover of the cold war, but they are supposed to be used in case of big disasters like a chemical factory on fire. I never heard them apart from the tests.

author: timb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 09, 2017, 11:31:38 am
content: Quote from: MarkS on April 09, 2017, 10:34:43 amSimilar sirens are also used in small towns across the US, primarily as a means of recalling volunteer paramedics/firefighters to the station during an emergency call.

author: RoGeorge
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 09, 2017, 12:00:19 pm
content: Siren usage for fast tornado forming perfectly makes sens, thank you all for explaining this.

author: MarkS
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 09, 2017, 01:25:58 pm
content: Quote from: TerraHertz on April 09, 2017, 10:59:15 amNo kidding! That's a running joke. What does happen if a tornado decides to touch down on a Saturday at noon? It's no less likely than any other date/time.Quote from: timb on April 09, 2017, 11:31:38 amAh, yes. I forgot about those.

author: W2NAP
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 09, 2017, 03:59:49 pm
content: Quote from: RoGeorge on April 09, 2017, 10:14:56 amtornado alert in many places, dam break in some, nuclear meltdown (when near nuclear reactors) and yes still would be used for air raid, or inbound nuclear attack

author: W2NAP
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 09, 2017, 04:03:23 pm
content: also. I am not sure what mode dallas uses them for tornado alert.. but these sirens usually have a few settings single tone and wail (up/down)

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 09, 2017, 04:43:25 pm
content: You'd think they would have a special test mode that cycles in a distinctive pattern or runs for just long enough to spool up the sirens once.

author: W2NAP
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 09, 2017, 05:49:51 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on April 09, 2017, 04:43:25 pmhere when they test (sat noon) they turn it on single tone for about 1 minute.

author: donmr
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 09, 2017, 06:46:43 pm
content: Also cities on the West coast where tsunamis are a hazard.

author: Red Squirrel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 09, 2017, 07:14:58 pm
content: That is pretty funny, you'd think they would be more secure than that, like have some kind of encrypted web interface where you can flip them on/off.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 09, 2017, 07:50:39 pm
content: Quote from: donmr on April 09, 2017, 06:46:43 pmI'm on the West coast and I'm not aware of any sirens around here. I recall seeing a few derelict looking sirens in Los Angeles but nowhere else that I recall.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 09, 2017, 10:13:08 pm
content: Quote from: Red Squirrel on April 09, 2017, 07:14:58 pmSo you encrypt them. And then when a tornado pops up you are searching around for the guy with the encryption key. Or you widely distribute the encryption key which starts to resemble not having encryption.There is always a tug of war between system usability and security. Which is why the current environment where more and more people feel free to do harmful things for fun or influence is disheartening. It tilts the balance toward security.

author: donmr
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 09, 2017, 10:41:32 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on April 09, 2017, 07:50:39 pmThey are all over the Oregon and Washington coasts, along with Tsunami evacuation route signs.

author: edavid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 09, 2017, 10:48:53 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on April 09, 2017, 07:50:39 pmSan Francisco not only has sirens, they test them every Tuesday!http://sfdem.org/outdoor-public-warning-system-0http://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/What-is-that-San-Francisco-noon-siren-6462186.php

author: Nusa
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 09, 2017, 10:56:08 pm
content: Quote from: timb on April 09, 2017, 11:31:38 amThat might be their surviving usage, but used to be small town whistles/sirens were used daily to tell workers when it was lunchtime and quitting time. The practice was still common when I was a kid, but it's a pretty rare town that still does now that everyone wears a watch or carries a smartphone.

author: Red Squirrel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 10, 2017, 03:00:37 am
content: Quote from: CatalinaWOW on April 09, 2017, 10:13:08 pmSuppose the info could leak, but this is like any other system, only ones whose job it is to use it would be given access. Or is this something actually meant to be used by the public? ex: if you spot a tornado.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 10, 2017, 03:51:47 am
content: Quote from: TerraHertz on April 09, 2017, 10:59:15 amThe sound is very similar to WWII air raid sirens. One example:

author: Red Squirrel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 10, 2017, 04:16:04 am
content: That is super haunting. Pretty much the sound of impeding doom.That is why I live where the air hurts my face.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 10, 2017, 04:25:31 am
content: Quote from: Red Squirrel on April 10, 2017, 03:00:37 amAccess of course could be limited. But as we all know a secret known to more than one person isn't a secret. And normal operation of a system like this would require dozens if not hundreds to know the key. If you can only trigger the system through radar detections you could keep the numbers relatively small (three shifts, weekend, + illness and vacation coverage). Frequent changes of encryption key would solve the turnover problem, but again you have compromised usability. This isn't a system you use hourly, or even daily, so people will record the key in informal "safe" storage. On a calendar, or mouse pad, or in their iPhone. If you want to add field observation to the mix the numbers skyrocket. Active police and firemen? Weather watchers? The general public?

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 10, 2017, 04:36:16 am
content: Quote from: timb on April 09, 2017, 11:31:38 amAlso in West Oz, & probably other Australian States in places that bush fires ( not "brush fires"---these are full-on "forest fires") are an ever present threat during the Summer months.If you don't live in the town, it can scare the bejabbers out of you when they suddenly wind up.After looking around, & not seeing any locals scurrying to the Firehouse, you know it is a test!

author: aargee
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 10, 2017, 07:26:31 am
content: In Australia we have this...http://www.emergencyalert.gov.au/images/stories/public_msg_w_tone.mp3Transmitted on all media as an alert for all disasters. This started in my home state, Queensland, as an indicator of imminent cyclone arrival and still sends a chill up my spine. It is instantly recognisable and can be identified even under noisy conditions.It was adopted as the national SEWS (Standard Emergency Warning Signal) Australia-wide, it's use by media is strictly regulated by disaster organisations.Essentially it means listen/watch and find out. (how you might be in peril!!)

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 10, 2017, 09:00:36 am
content: Quote from: donotdespisethesnake on April 09, 2017, 09:52:28 amWow, so the public are complete morons?http://dallascityhall.com/departments/officeemergencymanagement/Pages/Outdoor%20Warning%20Sirens.aspxQuote from: City of DallasJust like the rest of the world, step two once emergency sirens are running is to tune into official broadcasts and find out why.

author: CJay
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 10, 2017, 09:44:05 am
content: Quote from: MarkS on April 09, 2017, 07:08:46 amHighly irresponsible, illegal and extremely worrying, but the system soumds badly flawed, lacking in security and poorly managed, a worthy hack if it improves the system in the long run.

author: CJay
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 10, 2017, 09:53:36 am
content: Quote from: MarkS on April 09, 2017, 10:05:07 amTechnology moves on, what was secure yesterday cannot be guaranteed to be secure tomorrow, vulnerabilities and flaws are regularly found in the field and should be exposed, patched and monitored, people plug things in, make changes to configurations etc. Equipment fails in odd and not always predictable ways.It's ridiculous position to take that systems can be/are invulnerable and flawless, especially when there's a human element involved.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 10, 2017, 10:48:32 am
content: Sydney has a similar system which to my understanding uses encrypted radio transmissions, similar to that used by Police. Radios can be re-keyed easily and periodically. Keys and key loaders are strictly audited and controlled.

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 10, 2017, 11:07:23 am
content: Quote from: vk6zgo on April 10, 2017, 04:36:16 amWhat's the point? The wave of snakes, spiders and drop bears running away from the fire would provide you with ample warning and quite sufficient motive to run away.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 10, 2017, 11:26:01 am
content: Quote from: Cerebus on April 10, 2017, 11:07:23 amWildlife aren't very good at getting away from fires & often perish.The firefighters runtowardsthe fire.The rest of us are supposed to be smarter than the average "drop bear", & are wise to wait to be told the safe places to run to.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 10, 2017, 12:12:21 pm
content: Quote from: Red Squirrel on April 10, 2017, 04:16:04 amIt has to be, when you are dealing with something that causesthis mess(near my home in Garland)Quote from: Someone on April 10, 2017, 09:00:36 amTBH, the absolute majority of people know exactly what to do when the sirens start - unless you just arrived to this country (like me) and thought the sound was amusing but had no idea what is was...IMO to call 911 with a simple question like this is also irresponsible.Quote from: Someone on April 10, 2017, 09:00:36 amOh, I can tell you the sirens can be heard from indoors alright, especially if you live closer to one of them (just like I did in my previous house).TVs and radios also signal something like this:

author: timb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 10, 2017, 12:14:03 pm
content: You know, thinking about these sirens made me remember something from when I was a kid. (I say kid, but I was really a toddler, maybe 3 or 4 at the most.) My mom had to work, so she left me with a nice older lady who babysat a few kids during the day. Her house was right next to the town's water tower. The emergency siren was on said water tower. Said siren would go off to dispatch the volunteer fire department. Being right next to it, it was *very* loud and absolutely scared the bejesus out of me. Terrified would be a better word.The fear is so engrained in me that when I visit my parents, who now live in another town that still uses a siren, and it goes off to alert the local fire department, it makes me a bit uncomfortable. I can hear this wailing out in the distance and I get this brief sense of dread and an incredible feeling of unease the whole time it's going. It creeps me the hell out, all because of the siren that terrorized me as a toddler.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 10, 2017, 02:57:45 pm
content: Quote from: Cerebus on April 10, 2017, 11:07:23 amThat is assuming wildfire burns as a single front and AFAIK it usually doesn't so running towards bush which isn't burning may lead straight into the flames a couple of hundred meters away. IMHO the best thing to do would be to climb in a tree (or anything else high) to see where it is safe and then go into that direction.

author: Nusa
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 10, 2017, 03:11:09 pm
content: Tornado sirens were designed to develop about 130 dB at 100 feet and be loud enough to be noticed for at least a mile outdoors. Audible for miles more, if you were already alert. Obviously that's going to penetrate indoors for the closer houses. If they weren't generally installed on tall poles or objects with directional cones, those in the immediate vicinity of the siren would be running away with stabbing pain in their ears. Even so, it's uncomfortable to remain that close without ear protection.

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 10, 2017, 04:26:57 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on April 10, 2017, 02:57:45 pmYou can't do that - the drop bears'll get you.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 10, 2017, 11:33:29 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on April 10, 2017, 02:57:45 pmQuoteNo!----- stay well away from trees.When it is hot, eucalyptus trees (& I believe,also conifers), are surrounded by an "cloud" of flammable oil vapour excreted (not quite the right word) by their leaves (or needles).It is quite common in Australia for a fire front to leap from one tree to the next, without needing to burn the undergrowth in between

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2017, 12:42:57 am
content: Quote from: vk6zgo on April 10, 2017, 11:33:29 pmI've thankfully never been anywhere near a forest fire but I have been around a lot of woodworking and I can confirm that offcuts of conifers chucked into the stove burn very quickly and very hot (faster and hotter than non-coniferous softwoods) and eucalyptus species are particularly vigorous. As they heat you can see resin/turpentine bubble to the surface, evaporate and ignite.Oh, andexcretions are waste products,secretions are useful, deliberately produced substances. So the word you were grasping for was secreted.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2017, 12:56:35 am
content: Quote from: vk6zgo on April 10, 2017, 11:33:29 pmHaving been in the middle of bushfires the entire concept is broken, thick smoke can prevent seeing anything beyond 50m. You need a lot of advance warning to decide what to do and avoid being cutoff (if deciding to leave).Spatial awareness in such emergencies is poor even from the emergency services:http://www.bushfirecrc.com/news/news-item/underestimating-speed-and-overestimating-distance-wildfire-avoiding-entrapment-and-buFor a very good overview of the basics:https://blog.csiro.au/bushfire-basics/

author: timb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2017, 06:23:29 am
content: Quote from: vk6zgo on April 10, 2017, 11:33:29 pmJesus. Even the trees can kill you in Australia?!

author: CJay
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2017, 06:30:42 am
content: Quote from: timb on April 11, 2017, 06:23:29 amWell to be fair, they can kill you in most parts of the world, not many people survive entirely unscathed a tree falling on them

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2017, 08:46:27 am
content: Quote from: CJay on April 11, 2017, 06:30:42 amWell to get specific; trees falling on people is a cause of fatalities similar in risk to being killed by a snake. But if you take all the dangerous plants and animals in Australia and look at all the deaths caused by them, its still at least an order of magnitude lower risk than being shot and killed in the US. Dangers are relative, you're more likely to be killed in a road accident than either of those other categories.To show just how fast the fires can be upon you:Thats the professionals getting it horribly wrong

author: CJay
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2017, 09:20:56 am
content: Quote from: Someone on April 11, 2017, 08:46:27 amYeah, it was a slightly tongue in cheek comment, I've seen videos similar to that one and heard the recollections of survivors as well, it's a horrifying spectacle.I'm lucky in that my country rarely (never?) suffers that sort of thing but I have seen the speed a field of dry arable crop burns at, it's quite frightening to watch yet far less intense than a true forest/bush fire.I think pine forests would be similar risk as they have a similar volatile sap?

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2017, 09:42:11 am
content: Quote from: CJay on April 11, 2017, 09:20:56 amOften even faster for pine when they're dry, depends on the climate.

author: vwestlife
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2017, 11:52:34 pm
content: Quote from: Nusa on April 09, 2017, 10:56:08 pmIn Japan, large outdoor PA speakers play music at 5 PM every day to remind the kids who are out playing to come home:This article explains it:https://blog.gaijinpot.com/tokyo-5pm-song/"The beloved music is used as both a daily safety check to ensure the broadcast system and speakers are working correctly, and also to remind children that playtime is over and that they should return home before dark."And as for the tsunami warning sirens on the Pacific coast, Cannon Beach, Oregon uses the sound of a mooing cow to test the warning sirens, so that people won't confuse it with an actual emergency. It's so distinctive that tourists actually come to visit just to hear the cow siren!

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 12, 2017, 12:55:52 am
content: Quote from: vwestlife on April 11, 2017, 11:52:34 pmI like that.If you wanted something for a daily test that was a little more universal, an alternative would be, at sunset, to play the retreat on the bugle (or 'taps', both traditional for sunset in different places).Quote from: vwestlife on April 11, 2017, 11:52:34 pmWhat if it's a really nervous sounding cow?