Sensible approach to HP3456A check/calibration? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: tatel
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2024, 09:25:56 pm
content: Hi all.I'm just a hobbyst, not an EE, much less a volt-nut. Last June I bought an HP3456A benchtop multimeter in working condition. Just because I love good quality tools."Only" problem would be to check it remains into specs. IIRC last calibration sticker was dated between years 2000-2010? (I'm at about 400 Kms from the device at this moment). So, I guess some kind of checking is really in order.Odds for me to be able to find another guy with at least a 6 1/2 digits multimeter, are scarce. Same for going into any university.I asked for quotes from four calibration labs after some Googling. First one doesn't want to do anything with HP3456A.Second one asks for €187. They would give me an ISO certificate. They don't do any adjustments. I still have to ask about it, but it looks to me that it would be ISO certification without any data.Third one looks better, if asked, they do "fab" cals without any certification. But I haven't received any quote yet. They say to be working on it (I asked for quotes to calibrate four different devices, just to compare with welectron).From the fourth lab, I have just received an automated email reply so far.Last, I could pay for a one-week lease of an HP3458. No idea how much it would cost to me, but I fear it would be on the high hundreds of euros range. I don't have any experience checking/calibrating/adjusting a 6 1/2 digit multimeter, so don't feel comfortable learning at an accelerated pace while paying for an expensive lease. That's against any hobbyist approach. I would need some standards anyway, it isn't?. So, it doesn't look as a very good idea to me. I could look at this possibility again if nothing else works, though.Time to look at DIY stuff, then. Surely it's probably a more expensive way to go, but if I can't find a cal lab to do what I need, it looks as the best way to me. I could take it easy, and I would be able to use that stuff again in the future. At least I could check resistance and DC voltage in the lower ranges, which is what matters most to me. Or so I hope.Conrad Hoffman's metrology mini-lab looks good. However, I guess, having a 6 1/2 multimeter means I would need one of these LTZ1000 things. I'm OK with that, I would just ask: is that fairy tale offer from TiN and others about sending to them a DIY LTZ1000 reference to calibrate still standing?I see RN55D resistors aren't ROHS and are affected by REACH, so I fear they will get stopped at european customs. I have never ordered any non ROHS products. Actually I filter out non-ROHS anything. What do you think? Could I get these trough EU customs? Could you recommend any ROHS alternative?I also looked at those metrology grade standard resistors on eBay, to do just HP3456A's performance check. Once in a while I could buy one of these until getting all the seven values the manual asks for, but I would like to check my 3456 this year...Would these Vishay z series resistors be "good enough" for a hobbyist to do the performance check? Or is it a no-no-no?I'll gladly take any recommendation.Best wishes.

author: Wallace Gasiewicz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2024, 05:15:37 pm
content: Since no one else has replied.....I have two HP 3456unitsThe OHM adjust on the low ohm bands on the 3456 are done with the voltage adjusts using a volt standardI think probably the low OHM and low Volt Scales are of more interest. or at least that is where you probably need to be accurate.You can use resistors to "adjust " these, but I do not think it is as good, It is probably good enough.I bought a volt standard and had that "calibrated" ....... DOWN THE RABBIT HOLE,The Vishay resistors are very good. but I do not see any one lower than 36 ohms....In My Opinion, the biggest problem for the low OHMS is getting a good FOUR wire connection. Use only good copper wires .Also you have to be careful about your ambient temperatureThere are some discussions about precision resistors on this forum. I have a suggestion.See if you can find an older resistance bridge on local EBay that has connections for use as a resistance box and use that for "calibration".Don't buy the newer inexpensive ones from China.I bought one of these in nice shape for $20 at a hamfest: (not too old and not too expensive, even at asking price)https://www.ebay.com/itm/176119902021?hash=item2901906f45:g:P1IAAOSwzihlhFW-&amdata=enc%3AAQAIAAAA0LEsIbOmBD8KsFlULRNHKwVjva0cQP7PUX5StAhKkaR9VQ01m5yRlCr6hFg2Pb1Qy3%2BDp5BAVO4Q62KjLADiWb6jxGLYlsxuLE%2Bl6e8ogvn6W2K%2BzvPmmIr%2BFckUV1JcFGEIeZ8BVlFOMNMvmwurL%2FIW52lLIg9jeKGUK%2BcTHEKvG%2BQ5EGQoQ00sSGVe3Rf%2BuKZ54fkAjEPQWrJHesI9MFgy0Uq3ferIhfh4hk%2B8Qp0lTGuAIWD%2B%2Bjg9FNUOeFo65WBq3zYoy2f2ERiqff5I0V0%3D%7Ctkp%3ABk9SR8adxI2hYwI know this is not a perfect solution but will get you closer than you need to be....You could get the Resistance Bridge Calibrated more easily than a 3456. Perhaps there is some Lab near you???

author: tatel
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2024, 01:18:34 am
content: Thank you very much for your answer.We shall see if second calibration lab is able/willing to do what could be needed, and how much money they ask for. First one was not.I already ordered one each of 100, 1K, 10K and 100K Vishay resistors, Z and S series, 0.01% and, supposedly, 1-0.2 ppm. 28-36 € each, plus VAT. For the higher Ohm ranges, just looked for the best tolerance/ppm in stock on Digikey right now. These higher range resistors are way cheaper, about 4-9 € each, plus VAT.I know these are neither metrology-grade resistors nor what HP3456 manual calls for. Far from it. However I'm not willing to spend more on "standard" resistors. I think there's no need to go further, taking into account what my skills are and what I do as a hobbyist. I just hope they will allow me to see if Ohm ranges are out of specs right now. At least lower value/pricier ones. I also hope, at least the pricier ones will be minimally stable to be used again in the future.After checking resistance ranges, I will make the decision about sending the HP3456 to calibrate/adjust, if any calibration lab finally sends a quote to me. I already have a DMMCheck. It can be sent to welectron in Germany to be calibrated again if needed. That way, I'm quite confident I'll be able to see if any of my "standards" gets out of whack in the future.If I understand it right, HP3456 has a LM*99 internal voltage reference?. I don't think DMMCheck LT1021 is better than that. So a better voltage reference would be in order. Not sure about making a LM399 reference, it probably wouldn't be good enough?Checking against DMMCheck, my HP3456 seems to be quite good, just the 100 Ohm range looks bad, at 10 PLC 2-wire, 5 1/2 and 6 1/2 digits.I take note of what you say about resistance bridge/box. Something like that if I'm getting it right?https://www.ebay.es/itm/256087451550?https://www.ebay.es/itm/175876283467?Problem is, not only shipping from the US is crazy expensive, but that US sellers doesn't seem to like eBay's international shipping *program*. In that case, we EU buyers are also extorted a customs paperwork fee (about €50 in that price range), and, on top of it all, VAT. Far, far away from getting it on a hamfest. But I will look for it. Perhaps a bargain will appear, who knows. I already got an ebay search at workEven if there's no bargain bridge/box, it could still be cheaper than buying about seven hundred resistors to match about 30 of these.Last, this is what i got for 4-wire connection, I still have to do a BNC-banana adapter for HP3456 and DEER EE-5000, that stuff is lying around in some drawer right now.https://aliexpress.com/item/32505106470.html?https://aliexpress.com/item/1005004235132283.html?Thank you againEdit: link

author: TUMEMBER
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2024, 02:47:31 pm
content: Quote from: tatel on January 15, 2024, 01:18:34 amYou can try here.https://anmar-pl.com/en/laboratorium-metrologii-elektrycznej/There will be no problem with customs duties because it is a lab in Poland, i.e. the EU. But you would have to specify whether you are only interested in the document with amendments or additional regulations. The "paper" itself does not seem too expensive (about EUR 160 net and PLN 700). You would have to find out how much the adjustment would cost. The cost of "transportation" is probably also lower than shipping to a lab in the USA.https://anmar-pl.com/kategoria-produktu/wzorcowanie/keithley-wzorcowanie-standardowe/

author: tatel
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2024, 04:23:30 pm
content: Thank you for the link. I will put this card up my sleeve

author: donlisms
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2024, 06:50:16 pm
content: I'm not sure I'd agree with the Wheatstone bridge approach, unless you really want to get into measuring resistance with the bridge. To me, it's a fascinating way to make potentially high resolution resistance measurements, but you either have to just take the accuracy the thing gives you as it is, or start another hobby of how to calibrate the bridge and it's elements.The "bridge" is actually just a configuration of resistors, connections, and the detector. It gives comparisons only. The commercial units are a collection of all those parts in a usable form. The absolute measurement accuracy depends pretty much just on the standard resistor you're comparing the unknown to. The adjustable decades built into the box are quite convenient, but there isn't necessarily a promise that they're very high accuracy - it can vary widely, and then there's drift over the years.Those decades are really no different than a separate decade resistor. I suspect that separately, you have a better chance at choosing something with higher accuracy. The total cost goes into the decades, rather than being split between the decades and the rest of the stuff.Then again, with the circumstances you describe, I think you're already in pretty good shape. Go forth and measure, and be content.

author: Kleinstein
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2024, 07:40:39 pm
content: Quote from: tatel on January 15, 2024, 01:18:34 amThose relatively cheap reference boxes may be an option. At least for a short time and with some risc of getting fake numbers they may give relatively good measured values for the voltages and resistors.The quality of the ref. chips makes a difference over the long time and with the noise (but one can average a bit longer) and TC (so measure at a sensible temperature.For an accurate resistance measurement one should use 4 wire mode, as especially for the small resistors. 2 wire ohm is no supposed to be accurate at 100 Ohm, it is for a quick test and > 100 K or so.For the resistance one can compare the ranges relative to each other, so measure the 100 ohm in both the 100 ohm and 1 K range.Another check one could do is comparing 3 equal resistors in series and parallel - which should give good 1:9 resistor steps, even of the resistors are not super accurate. One should still have better than 0.1 % though - at least easy to check with the meter.One can do a similar test between voltage ranges, but stable voltage references may be more tricky than stable resistors.

author: tatel
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2024, 10:53:42 pm
content: Quote from: donlisms on January 15, 2024, 06:50:16 pmVery encouraging, thank you. Of course, if, like it happened to Wallace Gasiewicz, one of these Wheatstone bridge gets across my way, on the low tens of euros price range, I'll buy it on the spot. No matter if I really need or not...Alas, this probably won't happen anytime soon, so I'm looking at Conrad Hoffman's metrology mini-lab. Choosing between Vishay MRS and CMF series to build that Kelvin-Varley divider. I'll probably go with MRS since they are cheaper. So I could buy say, some 250 pcs of each value that needs matching.If I'm getting it right, my 3456 should allow me to compare the resistors, no matter if the multimemer is spot on or has some drift.

author: tatel
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2024, 10:55:32 pm
content: Quote from: Kleinstein on January 15, 2024, 07:40:39 pmUnderstood. Thank you for the tips, really appreciated.

author: Wallace Gasiewicz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 16, 2024, 12:56:28 am
content: Some Wheatstone Bridges have terminals that function as a "Resistor Box" These terminals are labeled "R" and the terminals for the unknown are labeled "X"When measuring the resistance of an unknown resistor you use the "X" terminals.That is why I included the specific example that appears in the ebay ad.The regular Wheatstone Bridges would not work , But this "Resistor Box" option is just an internal connection to the resistor bank.Many of them have very good resistors that are temp stable and have already aged.I think high grade modern resistors are probably better, but these Bridges have VERY good wire wound resistors that cost a bundle when they were new.There are new resistor boxes available, The good ones are very expensive, I just made this suggestion because it seems to me that the combo Bridge and Resistor box units appear to be a good bargain. especially since I bought mine for $20, in really good shape. Less than one good resistor.

author: GigaJoe
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 16, 2024, 03:23:01 am
content: wonder:- does it has fan on back ?buttons - loud harsh clickable or plush soft ?before any cals , i would recommend disassemble - replace all electrolytic caps especially PSU , and clean all boards from contaminations and connectors. usually it quite dirty after 40 years.then run turn-on 24-7 for 2-3 weeks , or more (longer - better ) , then do adjustmentsall adjustments manually - so labs really not in mood to do such adjustments.so rather - DIY reference box , and someone may willing to measure it as a reference point.

author: J-R
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 16, 2024, 12:42:29 pm
content: I am curious with regard to your goals going forward. Are you wanting to experiment with vintage equipment or do you have specific tasks in mind?While I assume you got a great deal on that HP3456A, I am not sure I see the value in spending money on it. Why not save up and buy something newer with a recent calibration?With hobbies, everyone has their own desires, of course...

author: Conrad Hoffman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 16, 2024, 01:43:57 pm
content: GR 1432 resistance boxes are .05% but are typically better. I'd get a couple of those, check the ranges and be content. Shallcross is usually as good, if you like those better. What do you have to measure that needs to be better? Build a Hamon divider and get whatever inexpensive reference you can find and do the same. IMHO, the value in a 6.5 digit meter, for most people, is resolution, not absolute accuracy. Obviously it's fun to do as well as possible, but I wouldn't spend a fortune on it. I've got a 3455A, with fewer adjustments. It's a very handy meter if you have the space. The 3456A will do better on resistance, as it has more trims. The downside is it has more trims!

author: tatel
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 16, 2024, 02:01:05 pm
content: Quote from: GigaJoe on January 16, 2024, 03:23:01 amTo say the truth, right now I can't remember it clearly. Alzheimer? I'm moving all my workshop because of family matters, so last time I turned it on was like 6 months ago. But I would say, dead silent, so no fan, harsh buttons, and serial number begins by 2010A IIRC.QuoteIt didn't look so dirty inside. Some previous owner put what I think is a temperature sensor that goes to a BNC conector implanted on the back panel. IIRC I have seen something like that on Xdevs site. My guess is previous owner cared for it. Don't remember seeing any electrolytic cap bulging -at a glance. But I'll follow your advice and eventually have a look at those caps and power rail voltages.QuoteUnderstood. Indeed I checked it twice against DMMCheck between last May-July and second time got better results. See attachment. So I for sure will follow this advice.QuoteYep, I know. First calibration lab doesn't make any adjustments, no matter the device. Period. WTF?Turning pots, it's not going to be better. Anyway I found these guys in Germany, it looks to me they are like people in this forum, calibration without certification, no AC, but adjustments are done and they aren't afraid to put their prices in the web. So I would trust them more that the marketing experts I just mentioned. Perhaps somebody here knows about them?

author: guenthert
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 16, 2024, 02:17:40 pm
content: Quote from: tatel on January 16, 2024, 02:01:05 pmWell, when turning old pots there's the risk that they disintegrate. And if you have a cheat sheet with the deviation, you can calculate the actual value (or let the 3456A do that for you). The calibration pots on the 3456A are of high quality and likely will be fine, but I can't blame them for not wanting to take such risks.Quote from: tatel on January 16, 2024, 02:01:05 pmtheseguys? I think, we need another hint.

author: tatel
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 16, 2024, 03:42:40 pm
content: Quote from: J-R on January 16, 2024, 12:42:29 pm3456A has a very good reputation for long-term stability. If I'm getting it right, being so an old device, stability could be very good. Hence, should I become confident it isn't really out of whack, I would trust it more than any of my handheld multimeters, for a long time. I'm sure you can figure yourself what the utility of a trusty 6 1/2 is.Last summer-fall I got some old analog scopes. Hameg 203, 303, 604, 605 in different condition. One of them works perfectly. Two other need little more than some deoxit in their pots, last one needs a serious repair I think. Also I got a really beaten, partially scavenged Tektronix 485. Its manual calls for a high-precision multimeter and that way I got into 6 1/2 multimeters, even if I'm pretty sure my Brymen 869s would be enough.Oh, and a military HP8640B, too. I'm going to play with all that stuff to learn and to have fun. Fun is important, otherwise I'll better die. You know, when I was twenty, a good part of my time and money did go into caving, alcohol, and other, even worse things you don't speak of, specially if there any children present. But now I'm just a pureta so I need something different to get fun.Not going further than 6 1/2, however. That's my ceiling. I swear.But I need to know how 3456 is doing, otherwise still there will be some worms eating my liver. Of course I'm exaggerating, but can any of you see a watch that shows the wrong time without feeling slight discomfort?DIY calibration ain't cheap, either. I can see it. Paying for having it calibrated/adjusted, if possible, looks better to me. If I need to spend €400 to get it adjusted, still it will be about the same than an used 34401 with no recent calibration from eBay. Right now there are half a dozen 34401 on sale in the EU. No one is currently calibrated, and the price range is €550-700. Of course they continue to be there because they aren't any cheap. Anything with a decent price gets soldipso facto. But you get the picture.You have to understand, I'm not in the US. The bargains you US guys find, look like Sci-Fi to us poor rotten fucked EU bastards. So good, so beautiful... so cheap! Alas, on eBay, you can easily see, say, $100-200 US items, with shipping costs nearing a thousand dollars. Canada is particularly bad in this aspect. In my eBay searchs, I usually filter out anything coming from outside the EU.Best wishes

author: tatel
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 16, 2024, 04:22:29 pm
content: Quote from: Conrad Hoffman on January 16, 2024, 01:43:57 pmYou are right, of course, and I'm not worried about absolute accuracy. Well, I wouldn't mind having it, you know. But, as you said, wouldn't spend a fortune on it. That said, see my previous post about how the prices are outside the US. Particularly if you are not any EE with 20-30 years experience. Then you need to throw some more money at it.What I do want, is to be confident that 3456 is not going to the mountain to jump like goats. It seems that this device isn't that bad. So, supposing those Vishay resistors come here, then I check my resistance ranges after a month of having the multimeter turned on, do my 4-wire measurements and it turns it's all seemingly good, then, that's it. In that case I wouldn't send this thing to any cal lab. Otherwise, having it professionally adjusted, rather than me fiddling with it without so much knowledge, doesn't look that bad to me, and I would have quite good accuracy for quite a long time BTW. At least if I have that money to spend on my hobby. That remains to be seen.Now, I really want to thank you for that metrology mini-lab of yours. If you read the previous posts in this thread, you'll see I'm looking at building it.Edit: I found one of these GenRads. It looks nice, of coursehttps://www.ebay.es/itm/374719967772?

author: tatel
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 16, 2024, 04:24:01 pm
content: Quote from: guenthert on January 16, 2024, 02:17:40 pmUnderstood, thank you.

author: Kleinstein
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 16, 2024, 05:38:07 pm
content: There is a good chance that an adjustment is not needed. These meters are relatively good even over a long time. Even if one would send it out for calibration it would make sense to do a DIY test as good as it can be done without spending a furtune. There are quite a few test that can be done and the test would also give you more knowledge on how to use the meter. A first part to get (if not already there) is a GPIB interface (I don't think the meter also supports RS232) to send data to a PC. Recoding 6 digits is not that much fun with paper.The easy test that can be done with rather little cost:1) check the input bias current for the 10 V high Z mode: e.g. look at the dirft rate with sime 10 nF low leakage (PP or PS or good C0G) capacitor at the input. This is a good way to check currents to the pA range and check if the differential input impedance is high (e.g. > 100 GOhm).2) Do a turn over test with a reasonable stable ref. source. This can be as little as well isolated (mechanical and thermal) batteries). So check if the positive and negative readings are the same. This would also include a check of the input offset. The test would make sense for the 1 V and 10 V range. Do to the difficulty getting a good source it would be tricky with 100 V (the 10 M resistance may be a bit much for batteries).3) Check if the noise is in the expected range (e.g. check a short)4) If one wants one could check the short range linearity (to check for some possible ADC faults) by looking at a low changing voltage (e.g. a 5000 µF range capacitor together with 10 M meter impedance). The discharge curve should be smooth and follow a smooth relatively simple curve even if no perfetly the ideal exponential (as the capacitor is not ideal).5) Check if resistors read the same in 2 adjecent ranges (usually 4 W mode). E.g. a reasonable stable 100 Ohm, 1 K, 10K checked in 2 ranges each.With suitable, short time stable ref. voltages one could also check the 100 mV/1 V/10 V / 100 V ranges relative to each other. So read a test voltage (ideally both polarities) in 2 adjecent ranges each.This readings should not be too much different and would be a rather direct check for the gain and divider steps.This still leaves the absolute scale factors for the voltage and resistance ranges. This is something one can only check relatively to an external accurate source. The DMMCeck is a crude check, but no way good enough to do an adjustment. Chances are one would be inside the specks of the DMMcheck. Even if not chances are good the meter could still be the more accurate one.The comparison the DMM check also makes sense, especially if done several times (e.g. one 1-3 x a week) to look for drift. No need to use the lower resolution / 2 W mode here, only the best case, like 100 PLC and 4 W resistance for values < 1 M, and 2 W mode for 1 M (if one has a reasonable good resistor).Even without a good absolute scale one can do quite a bit. As a bit of an extreme, for my DIY 7 digit meter I only know the voltage scale to some 0.5% and the resistance to maybe 0.02 %.

author: tatel
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 16, 2024, 06:01:50 pm
content: Thank you very much for the hints, I will put in practice as soon as I get back.Edit: 1 MOhm, RESI 0.1%, 5ppm Digikey number 4506-MMFR5215B1M00V9-ND10 MOhm: Ohmite, 1% 25 ppm Dgikey number MOX750F-10ME-NDI know 3456's manual asks for more, would you consider that reasonably good?

author: Kleinstein
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 16, 2024, 06:57:15 pm
content: The 1 M resistor could be good enough for comparing the ranges. One may not even need it that good with a few more repeats. 0.1% accuracy is of limited use as the test with 100 K and from the 100 K range should give a much better value for the scale factor.For a direct long term stability test 1 M and even more 10 M is not that good anyway. It would depend a lot on cleanness and maybe leakage.The resistors for the 3456 performance test / calibration are a different thing - they are for the absolute value to check or do the adjustment. Especially for the 1 M and 10 M range it is difficult to get very accurate long term stability. The relative comparison from 1 range to the next is relatively easy in comparison and is less demanding on the resistors.

author: GigaJoe
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 16, 2024, 09:01:23 pm
content: " temperature sensor that goes to a BNC conector implanted"really?I have some feeling you don't need to do anything with this unit .... including adjustment ....it would be sufficient at beginning, then you figure out , i would say cool down inpatient to fix it(my initial advises under assumption - it scrap yard salvage unit)

author: Silicium81
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 16, 2024, 09:42:46 pm
content: The 3456A is capable of displaying the temperature with a CTN sensor, there is a 'hack' to implant a sensor internally and display the temperature by a keyboard command.It's a good multimeter7,5 digits internal:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/adventures-in-retrocomputing-hacking-a-7-5-digit-hp-3456a/msg3915374/#msg3915374Test with box resistor decade DIY:

author: tatel
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 16, 2024, 09:52:22 pm
content: Quote from: GigaJoe on January 16, 2024, 09:01:23 pmYep. Not really sure it's a temperature sensor, but pretty confident that BNC shouldn't be there.QuoteYou could be right. I hope so. I wouldn't mind it, you know.QuoteNo, this was an ebay bid. But what I'm inpatient about isn't fixing it, but knowing how its doing. What I have been doing so far is just asking for advice and buying things to make it clear if calibration/adjustment would be in order. I bought that thing last May, I feel it's time to make something with it.Of course I'm willing to put my money where my mouth is, otherwise I wouldn't be here asking questions and wasting your time (and mine)

author: tatel
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 16, 2024, 10:09:03 pm
content: Quote from: Silicium81 on January 16, 2024, 09:42:46 pmMais oui mon pote; c'est ça que je veut bien!I mean, don't feel any need to go 7 1/2, but having 3456 reading the same it's adjusted in the decade box. Do you have any link to that DIY decade box? Just to put another card up my sleeve.

author: Wallace Gasiewicz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 16, 2024, 10:29:14 pm
content: You should be able to evaluate and. if necessary. adjust the 3456 with the resistors you ordered.Using the lower voltage and lower ohm ranges (SAME ADJUSTS) I would use copper wire connects directly to the posts without any adaptors to BNC.Get some decent lower ohm resistors, The best you can get perhaps on ebay. The bigger the resistor in watts the better. Even .1% resistors will be good enough for hobby use.Telephone wire (BELL WIRE)_ is typically used. this is just copper, no plating. Single strand.,comes in multiple wire cables for wiring a house for telephone Rig up some way to attach the resistors to the wire.If you can get axial lead resistors you can attach directly to the 3456 posts. And just attach the other two posts in the four wire configuration with clean copper wire.The 3456 is a really good unit and much better than what 99% of hobbyists need.

author: tatel
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 16, 2024, 11:14:23 pm
content: Quote from: Kleinstein on January 16, 2024, 06:57:15 pmThis did go under my radar somehow. It will have to wait until next month. 1 MOhm one is still an order of magnitude worse than what the manual calls for. 10 Mohm one fits that bill. Good enough?Caddock USF340, 1 MOhm, 0.01%, 5 ppm Thick film. Digikey number USF340-1.00M-T-5PPM-NDCaddock USF340, 10.0M, 0.01%, 5PPM Thick film. Digikey number USF340-10.0M-T-5PPM-NDAnd this 1 GOhm could also fit the bill? I got it right first time.Ohmite MaxiMox, 1 GOhm, 1%, 50 ppm Thick film. Digikey number MOX2FE-1000M-NDI can't find any better in Digikey's stock. I would gladly take advice about any of these three resistors. If not that, what could I buy in €20-30 range?

author: tatel
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 17, 2024, 12:38:42 am
content: Quote from: Wallace Gasiewicz on January 16, 2024, 10:29:14 pmI got Vishay Z-foil series, 0.01%, "0.2 ppm" for 100R, 1K and 10K. 100K is about the same, but "1 ppm". Radial. I was thinking about milling some thick scrap aluminum board to get these resistors cased in. I have that aluminum lying around in the workshop. I don't really feel comfortable about having these resistors tumbling around... or bending the legs, although it can be carefully done with some pliers. But I think the less I fiddle with these, the better. That means I need some binding posts. I would clip the 4-wire thing to the binding post, or have some short length of copper from an Ethernet cable, I guess it would be about the same than telephone cable, right?Would gladly take any advice about "good enough" but no "so crazy expensive" binding posts. Something in the line of these resistors, if possible. But if "crazy expensive" is really needed, then it's needed, and I will buy it. It will have to wait a couple of months, perhaps three, that's it.Also about casing in these resistors into the DIY aluminum boxes. I.E, would it be good/bad having resistor bodies in contact with the aluminum? Should i put some isolating stuff instead? Long or short legs? And so on. Any links would be greatly appreciated.This is the (of course chinese) stuff I got to make the BNC-banana adapters. I know these BNC connectors are really too cheap to use them with €30-40 resistors. I bought 1 mm thick board because that's what DER EE-5000 seems to need. I also have "usual thick" board lying around.https://aliexpress.com/item/1005005610197484.html?https://aliexpress.com/item/33021792391.html?https://aliexpress.com/item/1005004083068192.html?I agree, 3456 is overkill for a guy like me, talk about going after some trawler with a battleship. But I can be confident that it will take a long time for me to outgrow it...

author: Wallace Gasiewicz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 17, 2024, 01:06:44 am
content: You should use only copper to copper connectionsWith different metals you get some very small volts produced that will interfere, It will disturb the last few digits.This really applies to the LOW ranges, you cannot see microvolts an the higher ranges.It applies to Both the Lower Volt and the Lower OHM readings.Even a solder joint causes discrepancies. Maybe especially a solder joint.This is real and something I learned in calibrating my 3456.But how close do you really need to be?

author: tatel
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 17, 2024, 01:22:07 pm
content: Well, at the very least, I can guarantee you I will make my measurements with these resistors before and after casing them into boxes. To ask for advice just to reject it after received would be really a stupid thing to do.In addition, I understand Seebeck effect is a thing so your advice makes a lot of sense.I see casing resistors into boxes is common (bad?) practice, though. So there is something to be learned here. Good to try both ways, then.I guess final question should rather be "How close to spec a hobbyist could reach with minimal expenses?. I think, unless those resistors could be measured in a known good, currently calibrated device, that hobbyist will never know it for sure. Same for voltage references, not to mention higher voltage ranges.

author: Silicium81
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 17, 2024, 03:04:19 pm
content: Good link for the HP3456A:https://xdevs.com/fix/hp3456a/(for me, opens only with 'microsoft edge'See the add temp sensor (with external BNC)aproximatly middle page 'Temperature sensor'

author: iMo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 17, 2024, 06:09:42 pm
content: Quote from: Silicium81 on January 17, 2024, 03:04:19 pmI installed the LM35 into my 34401A years back (glued to the aluminum shield over the ADC, powered from outguard's 5V and its output wired on a free pin on the RS232 connector). Thus I can get nice TC sweeps of my DMM and do the TC compensation of the results..

author: Wallace Gasiewicz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 19, 2024, 12:23:36 am
content: About putting the resistors in a box.This affects the temp around the resistor.Most resistor "Standards" are in some sort of medium to keep temp as stable as possible. Many are in oil baths.The resistor boxes are, of course, in boxes. So any attempt to keep temp stable is quite appropriate. I guess you have to decide if the box would maintain stability or cause more heating than leaving them out in the open.Something that is a bit similar that I did:I rebuilt an old Lab Grade Power supply. I used a high quality Zener but no effort at temp compensation. The thing works quite well. However I discovered that if I even blew on the diode the voltage of the PS would change. I do not remember exactly how much but it was a few millivolts not just microvolts ( I think). Blowing hot air from a hot air gun at the board produced greater change.I think the temp stability of any Zener is very much worse than your resistors however.I am just relating this story to elucidate the importance of temp stability. I would think an enclosure would make stability greater than no enclosure, but that would also depend on how much heat the resistor creates itself. Perhaps someone with more knowledge could help.Perhaps try hooking up your lowest ohm resistor and experiment with some hot air or cool air.I really do not know the appropriateness of a metal box vs a wood or plastic, There is all sorts of RF these days that emanates from our computers and WiFI. It can induce currents in our sensing wires, I don't know what this RF would do to the Aluminum box, it seems that the resistor boxes are mostly non metallic.

author: tatel
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 19, 2024, 04:52:28 pm
content: Quote from: Wallace Gasiewicz on January 19, 2024, 12:23:36 amAt a glance it looks that most (all?) designs leave a good bit of space into the box. Hence, I guess these boxes are mainly to avoid air drafts and resistor heating would have a lesser effect on stability?OTOH, a guy could mill some fins on the outside of the box and a tight slide fit for the resistor inside... but that would be more of a heatsink? I don't know if that would be useful, perhaps it would make a nice experiment to do with a worse quality radial resistor.I agree that a plastic box would quite probably be enough, easier and cheaper.

author: Conrad Hoffman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 19, 2024, 05:02:36 pm
content: Rule #1 for most resistor metrology is you don't dissipate any more power than absolutely necessary to make the measurement.

author: Kleinstein
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 19, 2024, 05:58:17 pm
content: A box makes some sense. It protects the resistor and can isolate the resistor from mechanical stress via the 4 wires and gives a defined points to split in drive and sense.If wanted and for a accurate resistor it may make sense to have at least a crude temperaure sensor in the box - it does not have to be something special, a thin film PT1000 or 10 K NTC or possibly just a diode can be good enough.For just a check on 1 DMM one does not really need a full set of accurate resistors. It is hard to get some better than 0.01 %. One would need 1 resistor with a known values - here the exchange with somewhat with a good meter could be a way. A measured resistor may be a part that is still sensible to send per mail.Other ranges could be checked by measuring a resistor in different ranges and if really want an extra 3S : 3 P experiment. This does not need super stable resistors - just short time stability.

author: tatel
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 19, 2024, 06:41:39 pm
content: Quote from: Conrad Hoffman on January 19, 2024, 05:02:36 pmYep, that makes sense.

author: tatel
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 19, 2024, 07:06:06 pm
content: About Seebeck effect: I understand gold doesn't corrode and has like just 0.3V/ºC Seebeck coefficient with copper.Then you put in some solder to make, well, anything? Wouldn't that defeat the intended purpose of gold plating?I have read a paper from fluke (Watch Out for Those Thermoelectric Voltages!). There appears a little table of materials but the gold-tin couple wasn't there.A guy would think that tin plating would be more sensible if tin is going to be in the game anyway. There is something here that I still need to learn, it seems.

author: Kleinstein
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 19, 2024, 07:21:52 pm
content: The other materials only matter if there is a significant thermal gradient and temperature difference in the other material. Especially a gold plating is usually thin and thus gets very little temperature difference. Also the solder bridge is thin and there is ideally not much heat flow and thus not much thermal gradients.The purpose of gold plating is to get good contacts and in some cases easy soldering. In most cases the solder will mix with the gold and thus no more gold layer after soldering - maybe a residue of the nickle layer that is often below the gold. Chances are that ENIG gold is more nickle than gold.One does not need the Seebeck coefficients for all material pairs. It is enough to have them relative to a ref. material (usually platinum if choosen for data collections, but copper would also do).With not much power there are little temperature differences and thus little thermal EMF. If in doubt one could exchange the polarity of the resistor and measure in both directions. This would than average out most (the average part) of the error from thermal EMF.

author: TUMEMBER
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 19, 2024, 08:09:26 pm
content: Quote from: tatel on January 19, 2024, 04:52:28 pmAn interesting idea to improve resistance to environmental conditionshttps://www.eevblog.com/forum/metrology/teardown-standard-resistors/msg5154711/#msg5154711branadic solved the problem in a low-cost way

author: Wallace Gasiewicz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 20, 2024, 12:33:00 am
content: Silicone Fluid is used in transformers these days instead of oil because it is not flammable.There are Silicone Products that are made for heat transfer. Silicone pads for mounting transistors and ICs are one common use, but these come in sheets. There is also Silicone white heat sink paste that I use frequently. I wonder if there is a silicone caulk that hardens that is easily available that one could "Pot" the resistors into? I think this has been discussed but I don't remember the conclusion.You would not need anything as water tight as Branadic's rather ingenious solution. A big straw would work. Or a clear plastic tube from the hardware store.

author: tatel
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 21, 2024, 05:29:48 pm
content: Quote from: TUMEMBER on January 19, 2024, 08:09:26 pmAlas, these things doesn't seem to be available on eBay anymore, and it looks they will remain unavailable unless Russia wins WW3. At that point I don't think anyone would care about it. It looks these are for axial resistors anyway.Dr. Frank recommendation is to embed the resistor in an aluminum blockhttps://www.eevblog.com/forum/metrology/t-c-measurements-on-precision-resistors/msg464413/#msg464413While he does it to have a temperature sensor near the resistor, it is obvious there's no problem about the resistor becoming too hot;au contrairethis heatsinks the resistor, transmitting that heat to the box.For resistors like mine (Vishay VPG, Z and S series), which are not in metal cans but epoxied, the utility of heatsinking will be less. Epoxy will not transmit the heat as easily as a mineral oil bath and metal can. But it will help anyway. Z-series datasheet says max spread TCR is 0.2 +/-0.6 ppm/ºK (100R-600K), but PCR is 5 ppm/ºK.So, having it heatsinked would be a Good Thing (TM), I think.BTW, it's said that epoxy body is the reason these resistors have quite a yearly drift? It seems it absorbs humidity, which changes its behavior. In that case, having the whole resistor as sealed as possible, would also help. I got a couple ideas about putting them into a box.Not hoping that resistor will become as good as these metal canned ones, but if I can get some windfalls after doing something to avoid mechanical stresses, why not?Anyway I'll get measurements with just the naked resistors, too. To have, say, a control group to compare against.

author: tatel
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2024, 08:50:48 pm
content: Quote from: GigaJoe on January 16, 2024, 09:01:23 pmWell, memory didn't served me well.... There are two BNC connectors implanted on the back panel, and they are wired up to the stick that changes from/to front/back panel. Serial number prefix is 2201A

author: guenthert
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2024, 10:27:09 am
content: Wut? No pic of 'the stick that changes from/to front/back panel'?

author: tatel
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2024, 03:54:24 pm
content: It supposedly was on the second attachment on previous post... let's try again, and this time with a closer view too

author: Wallace Gasiewicz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2024, 05:34:06 pm
content: I know that I am changing the topic a bit. But since there are very knowledgeable people watching, I will attempt a question about one of my 3456 units.The unit will not align on the low ( 100mV ) range it reads about 150 counts too low at max adjustment. I believe this is about 15 uV. The input switching has been repaired by me and a few transistors replaced. At this point the signal as measured by a good 3456, is a few counts lower at the output of the switching circuit. This is measured at J19. When I measure at the end of the shielded wire that connects to the amplifier section , the signal decreases to about 150 counts low. basically the reading that I see on the display of the problem unit, This is a solid wire , but measuring at one end or the other does show a difference. Replacing the wire does not change the readings.Since the manual states that problems with just the 100 mV range are in the amplifier section. I wonder if anyone has any suggestions. I have done a lot of measuring and cannot find a particular problem.I am using a recently calibrated (Dec 2023) General Resistance DAS 45 as the volts source. I have the cal sheet.One unit, newer with soft buttons, calibrated (adjusted) easily. This unit will not adjust on the low range, although the readout is stable and consistently low.

author: guenthert
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2024, 11:10:58 am
content: Ah, thanks, so the status of the front/rear switch is made available through those custom BNC connectors in the rear. For some reason, I thought that a means to automate the switching (like for the 3457A), e.g. using a relay, would have been deployed.

author: tatel
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2024, 06:20:29 am
content: FWIW, 3456A has been on since February, 16. There are some preiminary measurements with non-calibrated resistors.100R, 1k, 10K are Vishay Z-201, now called Y1453. These are the epoxy body ones, 0,01% tolerance and supposedly .2 ppm TCR.100K is Vishay S102K, now called Y0062, also epoxied, 0.01% tolerance and supposedly 1 ppm TCR1M is RESI MMFR5215B1M00V9, 0.1% tolerance, 5ppm TCR10M is Ohmite MOX-750231005FE, 1%, 25 ppm TCR1G is Ohmite MOX-2-121007FE 1% 50 ppmMeasurements taken at 6 digits, 100 NPLC, Auto ZeroOn, autorange. 20ºC| 100R | 1K | 10K | 100K | 1M | 10M | 1G |-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------2W | 100.4031 | 1000.703 | 10.00050+3 | 100.0023+3 | 1000.039+3 | 9.98653+6 | 1033.732+6 |-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------2WOC | 100.3818 | 1000.671 | 10.00046+3 | 100.0021+3 | OL | OL | OL |-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------4W | 99.9975 | 999.947 | 10.00014+3 | 100.0018+3 | 1000.038+3 | 9.98674+6 | 1032.535 |------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------4WOC | 99.9995 | 999.947 | 10.00013+3 | 100.0018+3 | OL | OL | OL |5 Volts DC from DMMCheck: 4.99947-4.999555 Volts AC " " 5.00083-5.00095Without having these resistors calibrated, I don't know if it's in spec or not, but at least it seems it's not jumping like a goat.

author: tatel
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2024, 06:32:39 am
content: I was going to do Ohms Performance test but I'm not sure I'm getting it rigth. Please see attachmente. As I understand it, the red marked steps would be done in autorange, then the green ones would be done in manual 100K range?Last thing, I have noticed some hum coming from 3456A, weak enough to be noticed only at night. Is that normal?

author: guenthert
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2024, 08:49:51 am
content: Quote from: tatel on April 07, 2024, 06:20:29 amSame for the DMMCheck. It comes with a paper listing its values before shipping (as measured by the maker's DMM, but iirc no uncertainty is given). Its poor connectors aren't helping. It's ok for what it was meant, but calibrating a 6 1/2 digit VOM is outside its comfort zone.

author: guenthert
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2024, 08:53:28 am
content: Quote from: tatel on April 07, 2024, 06:32:39 amI haven't noticed a significant hum on my 3456A, but my 3478A hums badly (more so and of course at lower frequency) since moving to Europe. You might want to check for ripple on the supplies. The acoustic hum is afaik just annoying.

author: tatel
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2024, 11:02:51 am
content: I know DMM Check isn't enough for a 6-1/2 device, but it's the best voltage reference I have so far. That will change in the future but for the time being, it is what it is. I'll check for ripple, thank you very much.

author: Wallace Gasiewicz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2024, 01:26:41 pm
content: I hope that this will not upset too many of the Europeans, but I just passed up a Wheatstone Bridge that had a connection for use as a resistance box at a Hamfest for $ 5. Yes, $ 5 US. It was a US Navy model and had a big dent in the Aluminum Case, but it worked. Manual was in the box>Maybe this is the reason I saw so many Europeans and Japanese guys at the big Dayton Hamfest in the past. They were buying stuff that they could fit into suitcase for travel and were lamenting the fact that they could not ship the big old radios like Collins. Of course they were Ham Operators and this was a vacation, or at least part of a vacation for them.I have looked at the Euro Prices of some test gear and am quite surprised at the very high cost compared to US Prices.C'est tout simplement terrible!!!!! There are also some good sources for test equipment in Canada but I understand shipping is too expensive to EU. Sphere Research is a good company in Canada:https://www.sphere.bc.ca/oldsite/index.htmlAs an update I managed to fix the 3456 that I had mentioned in a previous post. I had a repaired board that i swapped and now the unit "calibrates" well with my volt standard and the other 3456.Comment about using the resistance box feature: There is a minimal offset when using the resistance box feature. in my unit it appears to be .013 Ohms . Advertised as less than .02 Ohms. Accuracy is .05%.

author: alm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2024, 05:04:07 pm
content: Quote from: tatel on April 07, 2024, 06:20:29 amObviously this does not constitute a traceable calibration, but I'd say most of the measurements are consistent with both the resistors and DMM being in spec (note that the 3456A uncertainty at 1 GOhm is very large). Or maybe both have drifted an equal amount. Other than a traceable calibration, you could try to find someone with a calibrated 6.5+ digit DMM that could measure the resistors for you. Note that for the lower values how much of the leads are included may matter. Resistor manufacturers sometimes specify how far from the case resistance is measured.I don't know what the linearity of the 3456A is like, but another thing you could do is measure the 100 Ohm resistor at the 100 Ohm and 1 kOhm range, 1 kOhm at 1 kOhm and 10 kOhm, etc. You would need to do the math to see if this would gain you any additional confidence in the linearity of the Ohms range. Anything further, like measuring ratios between the resistors, would get you deeper into metrology.Quote from: tatel on April 07, 2024, 06:32:39 amI don't think it matters. I'd always use manual ranging during calibration, or at least verify it auto-ranged to the correct range for every point (which I'd argue is more effort than just using manual ranging). I guess they specified auto-ranging to speed up the calibration procedure, since back when the manual was written they may not have automated the process.Quote from: Wallace Gasiewicz on April 07, 2024, 01:26:41 pmHow does this solve the problem of traceability?Quote from: Wallace Gasiewicz on April 07, 2024, 01:26:41 pmSphere has been winding down for a while since Walter died about a year ago.Thisis their current website.

author: Kleinstein
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2024, 07:09:02 pm
content: The list of testpoints rely on accurate resistors. So at the moment the tests listed by fluke can't be done. The point that can be done are a few test that don't need accurate resistors, like measuring the same resistor in different range. Another point could be checking a 100 K and maybe 1 M resistor with both AZ on and AZ off mode. The difference between the 2 cases should not be large. Similar a test in 2 wire and 4 wire mode could check if the sense Hi input has much leakage / low input impedance.

author: tatel
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2024, 08:11:19 pm
content: That hum worried me, so I just turned off the device. Hoping to have time to check ripple next days.Thank you all