Apple hardware subscription as a service - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: MrMobodies
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 25, 2022, 11:13:52 pm
content: I came across this video from Louis Rossmann Apple announces HARDWARE subscriptions: at least they're honest about you not owning it:https://odysee.com/@rossmanngroup:a/apple-announces-hardware-subscriptions:4https://www.theverge.com/2022/3/24/22994814/apple-iphone-hardware-subscription-bundle-reportQuoteIn other words it's like a rental which might work for some and I just hope they give people a choice like they had before.My ISP tried this on me recently with these YeaLink "cloud" phones. I was told the handsets were "free" but didn't tell me until right at the end of the cooling off period that it was £10 license fee a month per handset for the privilege of using them and I wouldn't own them at the end of the contract so I cancelled it. I inquired to other ISP's about selling me VOIP services so I can use analogue phone adapters for when landlines get decommissioned in 2025 but they didn't want to know and were at it too with these "Yea Lock you in" "cloud" crap with the same restrictive terms. Also it is the wrong setting for a home, if I am on the phone making a call and and I had everyone calling me at the same and all the other handsets go off that would distract and annoy me. It's not a call center. Now I am starting to think it is done deliberately to lock me in.All I want is to pay for something that I see and like and does what I want for a specific purpose that is going to work to a set of long term standards without any auto update/ no hosting/cloud dependency and for it to be left alone do it's thing.The good thing is with Apple announcing it it will save me the aggravation and grief of ever buying their stuff that do this and finding out later just like the contract I cancelled right at the end of the cooling period when I found out last minute and confirmed the nonsense which they didn't tell me at first.There seems to be an every increasing pattern with locking the users into things they don't own.I remembered in 2003? when Doom 3 came out, I was in a shop about to buy a copy and when I went to pay for it I was told that it requires internet connectivity (they have to mention this to reduce the likelihood of it being returned) and at the moment I thought I would never own this game so put it back forgot about it.Oops I forgot to ask, would you buy an Iphone this way as a subscription/rental?

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 26, 2022, 12:08:47 am
content: Quote from: MrMobodies on March 25, 2022, 11:13:52 pmAnd this is why I hate Rossmann: he’s dishonest. A rumor from an anonymous source is not the same as Apple “announcing” something!!And I guess he’s never heard of “leasing” before, which is literally “product as a service for a monthly fee”.*on Bloomberg no less, which never retracted its fake-ass report about embedded surveillance components (actually, they were line filters…) on server motherboards, meaning Bloomberg is not a trustworthy site to begin with

author: PKTKS
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 26, 2022, 08:37:55 am
content: A huge deep common grave to bury all this RENT-SEEKERS..I will never buy hardware this wayPaul

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 26, 2022, 01:31:40 pm
content: Quote from: PKTKS on March 26, 2022, 08:37:55 amNobody and nothing is forcing you to do so. Especially not an unsubstantiated rumor.Mind you that hardware leasing is LONG established practice in the IT world. For the first few decades of computing, you couldn’t even buy most computers, they were only leased. (IBM mainframes famously were lease-only for many, many years.)

author: Bassman59
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 26, 2022, 06:21:04 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on March 26, 2022, 12:08:47 amEvery time a friend sends me a link to a Rossman video or article, I tell that person: "stop sending me his crap. He's a fucking hack." That generally leads to a long discussion but they stop sending the links.

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 26, 2022, 06:37:21 pm
content: I don't blame Louis Rossman, it's more likely Apple leaking out feelers to see what backlash they might get.Across many sources, some claiming it's a rumour, Apple is "developing", "preparing", planning", "working on"... a hardware subscription model. How else do you test the market for such bullshit.How sad, Apple is flaccid and unable to innovate. Instead, their energy is just going into fishing for how to extract more cash from their customers i.e. monthly recurring revenue because they're priority is to dish out accurate forecasts for neurotic investors and the stock market, the primary focus of Apple now. Catering to Wall Street is a well known death spiral for corporations.

author: Bicurico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 26, 2022, 06:55:01 pm
content: An iPhone subscription would look like this:You purchase a 24 month subscription, which you pay with monthly rates.It will include an insurance. If the phone breaks or you damage it, you get a new one, but you will have to pay a reserve.The whole deal will cost as much as buying a new iPhone every two years.The good: you get a working insurance that gives you a new phone during this period, though you pay a reserve. Still better than having to pay to get the screen replaced with an unofficial lower quality screen, when you drop your phone. Same benefit if you lose your phone or it gets stolen.The bad: you don't own the phone and at the end of the period you have to return it. Hence you cannot make some money by reselling it. This makes the deal slightly more expensive.What's in it for Apple: constant cash flow, all users are paying users, as there will be no longer a second hand market. Also, no spare parts or third party repair centres chashing in.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 26, 2022, 07:00:36 pm
content: Before the 1982 break-up, AT&T jealously guarded its monopoly to be the only source of leased telephone equipment and fought against privately-owned equipment being connected to their wires.As a result, normal telephones were seriously over-engineered and extremely reliable, to minimize AT&T's labor expense in repairing them.

author: MadScientist
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 26, 2022, 07:08:41 pm
content: Quote from: floobydust on March 26, 2022, 06:37:21 pmThe reality of the hardware market is that Apples price performance is getting worse , I’ve personally stopped buying their products other then iPhones , I have three old macs , tablets etc , but my latest laptop is win 10 and my desktop is a self build windows 10 screamer , at a fraction of apples costs.Apple , to maintain its profits, needs to most likely both cut out the middle men , but also offer alternative purchasing mechanisms. Leasing is attractive to corporations or people that like to continuously upgrade.I see it as inevitable

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 26, 2022, 07:22:41 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on March 26, 2022, 01:31:40 pmPrecisely. Just like the "cloud" was the norm in the early days of computing. The huge progress and breakthroughs in computing in the last few decades has been due to a much more decentralized approach and lower costs.The fact we're getting back to this is not a sign of progress. It's the sign that vendors are turning into banks, making you forever dependent. The slightest hiccup could cut you off, leaving you with nothing.

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 26, 2022, 07:32:27 pm
content: What bit of "unsubstantiated rumour" do people not understand?Apple are famously close-lipped about future product plans. They do not leak to test the market, and Apple employees who are caught leaking get fired and sued. They are well known in the press world for it, and if you want continued access to official Apple sources, invites to their press events and the like you don't participate in the leaking - the nearest you can get and not got get put on Apple's naughty journalist list is to report that somebody else has reported a leak. Source: every computer journalist I used to work with who had any experience of dealing with or reporting on Apple, several of whom were on Apple's PR's "you don't exist as far as we're concerned" list for past perceived infractions.I'll further note that getting your Apple phone on subscription is the norm for a lot of British consumers, except that it's the mobile phone company that they get it from, not Apple.

author: rdl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 26, 2022, 08:03:53 pm
content: Leasing/renting is not a problem for me, though I'd probably never do it. It almost always costs significantly more in the long run.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 26, 2022, 08:44:14 pm
content: Quote from: floobydust on March 26, 2022, 06:37:21 pmThat is not even distantly how Apple operates. Apple has often been described as “aloof”, which is the exact opposite of putting out feelers and worrying about backlash.Quote from: floobydust on March 26, 2022, 06:37:21 pmNo, ONE single source, and a highly unreliable one (Bloomberg) at that.Quote from: floobydust on March 26, 2022, 06:37:21 pmUh… market research?And again, you’ve never heard of leasing? Even if the rumor were true, “subscription hardware” is simply a lease. Even if they do introduce this option, the chances that they’ll do away with outright purchase is somewhere between zero and nil.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 26, 2022, 08:45:37 pm
content: Quote from: Cerebus on March 26, 2022, 07:32:27 pmAs someone who has literally signed an Apple employee NDA in the past, I can absolutely confirm that they take secrecy/confidentiality EXTREMELY seriously.

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 26, 2022, 10:27:25 pm
content: "Apple shares climbed to a session high after Bloomberg reported on thenewsThursday" did you miss out lol."Some on Wall Street have previously urged Apple to switch to a subscription model. Sanford C. Bernstein & Co. analystToni Sacconaghipitched the idea of hardware subscriptions in 2016, saying at the time that it could help Apple get to a $1 trillion market valuation. Apple hit that milestone without embracing the approach... but ..."He touts it as a way to cater to investors who like predictability and stability.MBA course Greed 501 at university- how does it get consumer and industry opinion on such a change - "you will own nothing", probably not even the data on the rented phone, forget any right to repair 'cuz it ain't yours, and if Apple does make a mistake with bad design/manufacturing you're locked in for a couple years with the lemon?To me it seems like corporate overreach would happen, depending on the rights you'll have.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 26, 2022, 11:53:12 pm
content: Quote from: floobydust on March 26, 2022, 10:27:25 pmWhat is your point?? We all knowwhat’sbeing said. My point is that the source of that info is ONE source: Bloomberg. And that I don’t trust Bloomberg farther than I can spit. Everyone else is repeating what Bloomberg said.It’d be different if multiple news outlets had heard the same thing independently.So all this outrage over something that a) is anything but confirmed, a lowest grade rumor, no more, and b) just a relabeling of a common practice.

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 27, 2022, 12:51:25 am
content: If you actually read the Bloomberg article, properly, you soon notice that there are a lot of weasel words ...Quote from:https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-03-24/apple-is-working-on-a-hardware-subscription-service-for-iphonesThose are the nub of that article, all the rest is filler or speculation. Doesn't boil down to much does it?So, if it all proves to be a Bloomberg fever dream, they have put just the right mixture of words in there so they can say "Youreliedon it? But didn't you see all the caveats we put in there?".Note: "people with knowledge of the matter" is journalese for people at quite some remove - "knowledge of the matter" can mean almost anything, some bloke down the pub who "knows a bit about Apple". Code for a source that actually knows something definitive would be "people close to", or "people inside". A "staff member speaking unattributably" is code for an official leak.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 27, 2022, 02:12:22 am
content: Did you watch the video? To me it was simply reading the news and providing commentary. Sure, the sources might not be the best and the story looks somewhat shady, but his commentary is not far from what the corporate ghouls ascribed to Schwab's agenda have been trying to impose on regular citizens. Not only that, but he frequently backtracks in future videos when he finds incorrect things - this may well be another one of those.As for your choice of words: "Hate", "hack"... Pretty spiteful words coming from someone trying to be credible when trying to debunk a rumour. As with anything Apple, unfortunately my observation of your opinion in this forum is usually quite defensive or biased. If I believed that "hate speech" existed, your sentence above would be a good example of that.Regarding being a "hack": his hacks helped many (Hundreds? Thousands?) to learn a trade and, on the sidelines, personally got involved to influence legislation towards a cause, so he is hardly one.All in all this might as well be a completely unfounded rumour, but the idea is something in vogue and most probably welcomed by investors and financists alike as yet another source of continuous revenue stream. The novelty would be this coming from a manufacturer, not an actual service provider such as a phone company, which they already do with their lock-ins and installment plans.Quote from: tooki on March 26, 2022, 12:08:47 am

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 27, 2022, 02:47:19 am
content: Quote from: rsjsouza on March 27, 2022, 02:12:22 amNo, the headline alone told me it’s gonna be another of his annoying videos. His choice of wording - “announces” - is evidence of dishonesty, since Apple announced no such thing.Quote from: rsjsouza on March 27, 2022, 02:12:22 amYou’re mixing up my single comment with other people’s comments. Please read CAREFULLY before making nasty accusations. I didn’t call him a hack. I said I hate him because he’s dishonest, and I stand by that.I also am not attempting to “debunk” the rumor. I’m merely reminding people that itisa rumor and nothing more!And yes, I am defensive of Apple because of the sheer amount of idiotic, unfounded anti-Apple BS that gets thrown around here all the time. I have no problem with discussions based on objective facts, but every Apple discussion gets mired down in the myths that the haters repeat over and over, even when presented with counterevidence conclusively disproving those myths.Quote from: rsjsouza on March 27, 2022, 02:12:22 amAgain, not something I said. I disagree with him and his attitude on many things, and I don’t think his skills in electronics are as good as the deity people make him out to be. Maybe he has helped a few people learn a trade (though I doubt it’s thousands), and he repairs a lot of devices that would otherwise be scrapped, and I do think that’s a good thing. He can do decent work while still being someone I dislike.Quote from: rsjsouza on March 27, 2022, 02:12:22 am“In vogue”? It just underscores the level of abject stupidity on the part of most journalists and analysts that they’re getting all giddy about a rumor about leasing, which is nothing new in any way, shape, or form.And this certainly wouldn’t be the first time a technology manufacturer leased stuff directly.

author: MrMobodies
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 27, 2022, 04:58:36 am
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on March 26, 2022, 07:22:41 pmI know someone who use to work for an insurance company from the 70's. They set the mainframes to "time share" different tasks and experiments that other companies would pay them for.I think they should maintain a choice, rental, high purchase (after the contract I get to keep the goods) and own outright own and insurance/service agreement options so they can suit as many buyers and situations.

author: PKTKS
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 27, 2022, 08:29:03 am
content: Quote from: tooki on March 26, 2022, 01:31:40 pmI ca not see how to compare a cellphone to a mainframe... i can not see how to compare a cellphone even to a PC..You can not even use a cellphone like a cheap bad computer..So anyone ever use a mainframe for FB.. browsing or photo gallery..?Do not see how such comparison soundsPaul

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 27, 2022, 10:17:15 am
content: Quote from: PKTKS on March 27, 2022, 08:29:03 amHello, 21st century calling. I've got a 3D scanning application on my phone that will create a point cloud model of a real world physical scene. In what world is that not a job for a computer, a computer with a bit more grunt than a "cheap bad computer". It will do in seconds what the whole desktop full of 3 engineering workstations (total value £30k-£50k) I sat behind a few years back would have taken a day to do. If you "can not see how to compare a cellphone even to a PC" perhaps you haven't quite got quite as much of a grasp of what this whole "computer" thing is about as you think you do (your regular postings of loads of bash script notwithstanding).QuoteTwenty years ago no consumers leased their cars, it was purely a business phenomenon, nowadays it's a common practice for consumers - one of the forum members was talking just last week about handing his privately leased BMW i3 back to the leasing company. Consumers used to buy their own copies of Photoshop (well, the honest ones did), now they rent it from Adobe. We've already established that many consumers already lease their phones and have done for years. Many, many millions of people used to rent their televisions, or buy them on hire purchase, which is just another variation on a lease.

author: PKTKS
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 27, 2022, 11:06:16 am
content: Quote from: Cerebus on March 27, 2022, 10:17:15 amLet me get this straight... So you are all saying....That we can now today (incredible 21th cent).. pick a cell phone...put it on the desktop... (just like a mainframe... or powerful PC) ...... and use it on the same manner..I am sorry but I haven't seen how this is possible ..I do own some cellphones.. and i have no F** clue how to do thisThey areALL LOCKED DEVICES...I can not use them as regular computers to run programs .. write programs and scripts..just because they have beentotally crippledHave any of you just tried to root ANDROID?or.. even simple .. running aBASH SHELL(which is included by default) on it and issuing a simplemountcommand on a terminal applet (written in some java dialect) ??I did.. several times.. it is a tragic waste of time...These so calledcomputers...are *** gizmos to lock consumers into a business..They are not computer ... if we are reaaallllly talking serious..There is no chance in hell to compare a REAL MAINFRAME MULTIUSER device with a cellphoneNevertheless ... I am pretty sure the folks on Apple think they are seeling something even better than a mainframe or PC and they should charge equal or more...say what.. irrational world... greed... or they just count everybody as imbeciles..and these genius rent-seekers will lock your life and business inside theirs..like taking popcorn from children...so.. if you all gonna pay for a device like that instead of computers... good luck...Paul

author: PKTKS
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 27, 2022, 11:21:00 am
content: I will drop some more absurd greedy non-sense...Today a pretty shitty cellphone ... locked and censored by the cloud...is costing some thing around U$ 3100 dollars here...With this amount .. a last generationvery capable computer PCcan be bought with all network infrastruct and other things like external NAS..U$ 3000 thousand dollars for a shitty cellphone is not rationaljust to do browsing ... photo gallery and shitty emojis...i am ok if someone want to do this,,, but i can get more value for this amount...and who said rational plays a role...i cal this shit.. theIFOOOOOLPaul

author: BeBuLamar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 27, 2022, 11:43:33 am
content: Quote from: rdl on March 26, 2022, 08:03:53 pmEventually you will have to do it unless you don't want a cell phone. Apple will do it first but then other manufacturers will follow.

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 27, 2022, 12:08:38 pm
content: Quote from: PKTKS on March 27, 2022, 11:06:16 amPerhapsyoucannot, butIcan, and so can and do 10s of thousands of other people. That's how apps get made in the first place. Your doctrinaire "There is exactly one type of computer and it lives on a desktop and runs Linux" attitude is completely blinding you to the real world, where people write and develop programs for the pocketable, hand held computers we call smartphones every day.I shouldn't really tell you this, because I fear for your mental condition after you discover that your whole world view has fallen apart, but you can even run Linux on an iPhone, should youreallywant to:https://www.macworld.co.uk/news/linux-iphone-7-3800398/.

author: PKTKS
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 27, 2022, 12:51:10 pm
content: Quote from: Cerebus on March 27, 2022, 12:08:38 pmYou made me miss he Monky fellow....Exploding spite rant inwards spherically emanating insults...Do you know Apple charges to include apps and devels in their (closed) realm?Do you also know the whole device is censored by their hidden bots ?I am not locked into anything. I just DITCHED the crap and no longer need them.If you are willing to pay that much on Apple gear.. fine.. your money.TBH.. they do not worth 1/1000 that muchPaul

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 27, 2022, 01:32:31 pm
content: Quote from: Bicurico on March 26, 2022, 06:55:01 pmIfthis takes off (remember, it's just a rumour) I would expect it to be different to your suggestion. That way was how cars were sold on HP way back, but nowadays you never get to own the car. Instead, you pay a deposit and then monthly payments for 2 years or so. The payments are priced at covering the car over 5 years (or something similar) so you're clearly not going to have paid it off after 2 years. At that point you can pay the market value less what you've already paid (and then own the car) or hand it back and start again with another car.That kind of scheme would make lots of sense for Apple devices. After 2 years they are ancient history (not technically, but socially - everyone wants the latest one), but they are mega-expensive to keep upgrading, so you flog off your old one to fund a new one. This scheme would essentially be doing that except you don't have to mess about trying to sell the old one, and you don't have to cough up the full price at the start. Cheap monthly payments, always a new (or relatively new) phone, what's not to like.The downside is you never own a phone and if you stop paying it's gone. Cars leased this way have mileage limits and penalties for scratches and dents which affect the 'settle up' value at renewal/purchase. Phones would likely have similar.

author: PKTKS
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 27, 2022, 01:53:27 pm
content: It is easier and more rational to tell this guild to fuck offit matters to make a stand against such guildsPaul

author: PKTKS
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 27, 2022, 02:35:08 pm
content: Quote from: Cerebus on March 27, 2022, 12:08:38 pmFYIthose 10.000 folks are going to have some ass kicking as welllhttp://www.osnews.com/story/134724/apple-would-be-forced-to-allow-sideloading-and-third-party-app-stores-under-new-eu-law/Paul

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 27, 2022, 04:58:48 pm
content: Quote from: PKTKS on March 27, 2022, 12:51:10 pmDon't be such a drama queen, I didn't even say anything as harsh as "Boo!".QuoteUtter rubbish! One is free to write applications and put them onto one's own devices with no charge, no "censorship", no involvement from Apple whatsoever. One can even distribute one's own applications within one's own organisation on the same basis. An almost identical situation also exists for Android devices. Obvious one must be technically capable enough and know what you're doing first to do so, but that applies to writing an application for any flavour of computer. And "Do you also know the whole device is censored by their hidden bots ?" is just ill informed paranoia and FUD - they aren't.If you're going to argue against something it pays to understand it first, otherwise you risk looking like an idiot. Yeah, we get it, you hate everything not Linux, but you're becoming a bit of a "one trick pony", all you ever seem to contribute on this forum is knocking things, often from a position of deep ignorance, that don't accord with your rather narrow world view. I don't recall even seeing one actual "electronics" post from you.

author: PKTKS
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 27, 2022, 05:25:33 pm
content: Thank you again for your kind insults...Just google likehttps://duckduckgo.com/?q=apple+stuck+waiting+icloudNot so long ago even shell scripts could not load properly due to the iCloud bots parsers..the fact was wide spread available..your rant is very similar to the other fooly MonkyNot FUD no rant... and.. if I have just 20% ofelectronicspost ..because I specialized myself in IT along past 30y.while EE and repair man got left over the 80/90s..Suit yourself if you you will oppose and insult the 20% or the rest...The facts remain. Apple bots the user life and profit from it 2xno drama...Paul

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 27, 2022, 05:29:54 pm
content: Quote from: Cerebus on March 27, 2022, 04:58:48 pmOh, you missed the saga of his '500W' ATX PSUs then.Sneak preview:Quote from: PKTKS on March 27, 2022, 05:25:33 pmI'm not really sure where you think iCloud connects with running shell scripts. I recall some ugly launch delays due to external security checks (I'm not an Apple guy so I never bothered digging deep into that), which is not the same thing as 'iCloud bots parsers'.QuoteThis sentence doesn't mean anything. It's just words strung randomly together.

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 27, 2022, 05:39:45 pm
content: Paul, you have totally lost the plot. What does a bug with syncing to a cloud file store ("iCloud for Mac is stuck on "waiting to upload"") have to do with any of your claims?And you've not been insulted, disagreeing with someone, or telling them they are mistaken or even flat out wrong is not insulting them. You are a Linux monomaniac, a quick scan of your posts proves that. Do you think that's insulting? I'd have thought from your ceaseless, breathless advocacy that you would be proud of the fact.Honestly, you do seem to work really hard at getting your posts filed in theGREEN INKfile rather than have an actual dialogue with anyone.

author: MrMobodies
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 27, 2022, 08:19:36 pm
content: Quote from: Cerebus on March 27, 2022, 10:17:15 amI know some phone companies had this deal that, they will upgrade your phone as soon as next one comes out where you just keep on paying.I don't know about now but Tesco's were quite generous in that they let you keep the phone out of the contract and automatically unlock which is something I am fund of, a bit like a hire purchase for some who might want to use it for other purposes.QuoteI met some people who were forced to.Now about the Adobe/photoshop, I think it could have been photoshop or autocad something like that, a couple of friends who their owned companies last year said to me that they had this deal where they pay for the updates yearly but were told that they were discontinuing this and their package (even thought they had 2 more years on the contract) that they had to "upgrade" to their cloud and app version and pay a monthly subscription. One of them who used it on a daily basis had NO CHOICE (unfamiliar with other alternatives) but had to migrate over and found he was paying three times more than what they paid into the thousands. The other friend said to me they were looking at other solutions to see if they can get use it as they didn't depend on it that often.Now I can see how they lock people in and Dave Jones had a point about Youtube looking at other platforms such as Utreon and Odysee incase they delete his channel. So it's good to explore other competitors as if everybody give one entity all the power and they find could do things like this when choices are limited.My concern is denying people a choice that they once had before.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 27, 2022, 08:25:02 pm
content: When the migration of Photoshop to the Cloud was forced upon photographers, one professional objected.His day job was photojournalism, especially in conflict zones and poor countries, where internet access was virtually impossible.When he complained to Adobe, they suggested he log in at the airport.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 27, 2022, 08:31:15 pm
content: QuoteThat's a bummer but is not in and of itself screwing anyone. A long time ago you paid a LOT of money to join MSDN, similar for OS/2, etc. Many platforms don't have (or didn't have, until they saw the light) APIs or any third-party access to their product offerings.I think Google set the ball rolling for expectations of free-ness with Play Store apps going for nothing or perhaps 99p if they were expensive. We have just got used to that, but it's worth remembering that at the time the Play Store was an exception.There are benefits for third-party access, not least to create a community around a product and to improve it without the manufacturer spending any funds on doing so. But it's not a crime to decide that you don't want anyone else involved, or to charge them to make a buck off your product.

author: MrMobodies
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 27, 2022, 11:32:00 pm
content: Talking of Adobe I found this which I found disturbing and I didn't realize this started back many years ago when at the time I remember them being purchased outright by a company I was at:https://community.adobe.com/t5/download-install-discussions/how-do-i-prevent-creative-cloud-from-taking-over-my-cs6-perpetual-license/m-p/6491847QuoteI imagine it removed the perpetual copy.QuoteQuoteCreative Cloud taking over.https://community.adobe.com/t5/download-install-discussions/adobe-cc-installing-apps-without-consent/td-p/12611566QuoteAdobe not looking good on Trustpilot:https://uk.trustpilot.com/review/www.adobe.comFirst review 19th March 2010 (88th page)Reviews 2514 BadExcellent 5%Great 2%Average 2%Poor 4%Bad 87%I found this interesting:QuoteNot encouraged from the start to save their work locally which reminds me of this article:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/file-not-found-please-tell-me-this-is-a-joke/QuoteI was always told that saving work is very important but not now not encouraging it enough and not realizing the subscription maybe need to be paid for or they loose it all if they don't save it elsewhere. I am being told this a lot lately and the more I hear it, "you don't need to know, it's in the cloud, its all cloud these days" and I feel like having a right go at the people who say this to me especially what I am seeing now.

author: PKTKS
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2022, 11:07:55 am
content: Quote from: Monkeh on March 27, 2022, 05:29:54 pmMonky... i got 2 other batches of those 500W...placed 2 inside my nephew game server DOOM machine..Got a marvelous 1000W below 40C inside the case...Both PSUs in-line at the bottom of the chassi expelling air outside..The heat now is just from the bottom socket ( PICTURE attach )I deal withSECURITYvery seriously... for a long timeEVEN RUMORSi take serious...by the time ..ALOTof rant surged against those Apple SHELL problems..Now ask yourself.. (as everybody did)WHY IN HELL Apple placed iCLOUD bots messing with SHELL scripts?At the time (and i do not have time to dig old rants..)A LOT of clever people in the security forums..came to the conclusion the the bots are so deeply buried..that even a simple shell script wasphone home.. before executing..I take things serious.. even rumors..Monky my nephew loves his DOOM machine...i kept that cool .. he is a no brain...Paul

author: MadScientist
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2022, 11:17:16 am
content: QuoteWhere the evidence this actually exists.

author: PKTKS
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2022, 11:20:00 am
content: Quote from: MadScientist on March 28, 2022, 11:17:16 amthis is old stuff..spread across some forums.. lot of rant...shell scripts were taking a lot of time to load and execute..in 2 weeks conclusions were issued...i have no time to dig that old shit...bots calling home were causing the issues.. buried deep in system libsPaul

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2022, 12:42:41 pm
content: Quote from: PKTKS on March 28, 2022, 11:20:00 amSo noactual evidencethen, just vague hand waving.  How surprising.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2022, 12:49:21 pm
content: Quote from: Cerebus on March 28, 2022, 12:42:41 pmWhat he's talking about is real - but 'icloud bots' have nothing to do with it. OCSP is used to verify certificates before execution, and sometimes introduces unwanted delays.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2022, 01:18:45 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on March 27, 2022, 02:47:19 amThe title of the post is a consequence of the piece of news he read on video, which may or may not be dishonest - I give the benefit of doubt but you don't. That is your premise, but your defensiveness of a corporation and attempting to debunk the rumour by renaming it to "leasing" (something that even you wouldn't know for sure, or would you but is gagged by an NDA?) undermines your arguments.Quote from: tooki on March 27, 2022, 02:47:19 amIndeed you didn't call him a hack. Sorry about that.Quote from: tooki on March 27, 2022, 02:47:19 amLook around you. The amount of subscription-based services and products increases by the day not only for corporations but for the general public - there is a clear reason why this trend is "in vogue". Not only that, but the overshadowing threat of a piece of hardware in complete control of the manufacturer, which in theory holds all the keys and backdoors to its own product, leads to credible pushback against potential control overreach such as hardware disablement, feature blocking, application uninstall (although that already occurs in Apple ecosystem). The reason claimed could be anything that is vaguely mentioned as a "TOS violation".That is what frustrates the heck out of users having the possibility in the horizon of having one more product slipping away through the fingers.

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2022, 01:20:23 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on March 28, 2022, 12:49:21 pmWhich has nothing to do with running shell scripts,per se, but I can see how that might confuse someone who has no clue about what code signing, OSCP, and X.509 certificates are. But one would hope that an enquiring mind would find out what was going on instead of just ranting about 'iCloud bots' and similar nonsense.

author: PKTKS
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2022, 01:26:06 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on March 28, 2022, 12:49:21 pmdead sure is real.. i take security very seriously...They solved that outrageous delays in about a couple of weeks...Nevertheless.. such issue should by no means be forgottenA persistent 2 week rant popped in a lot of forums..WTF WHY a shell script would delay to load && execute...calling home... geezPaul

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2022, 01:57:45 pm
content: Quote from: PKTKS on March 28, 2022, 01:26:06 pmBecause every time you execute a shell script, you fork a new shell interpreter, which is a signed Apple binary with a certificate to validate.You proclaim to be very knowledgeable - this should therefore be obvious to you.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2022, 01:58:47 pm
content: Quote from: BeBuLamar on March 27, 2022, 11:43:33 amOr just buy an unlocked one from Aliexpress or whatever online store that specializes in that type of stuff by then.

author: PKTKS
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2022, 02:27:36 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on March 28, 2022, 01:57:45 pmHilarious ... you two guys in a same post managed to blame and label me dozen different ways,,,thanks !!!I proclaim nothing.. I am not even Apple user .. I think apple gear sucks..The post just brings an old fact.. that popped on IT security forums.. which i manage to have RSS feeds inwards... I just brought the issue... which holds true..The reason.. WTF i do not care.. I do not use not even trust apple..They are just a bunch of greedy assholes.. with overpriced hardwareI can get more value for the moneyPaul

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2022, 04:31:49 pm
content: Quote from: rsjsouza on March 28, 2022, 01:18:45 pmHuh? I’m not talking about the title of the post, but the title of the video. That’s all Rossmann. As others have pointed out, the articles themselves are full of weasel words.Quote from: rsjsouza on March 28, 2022, 01:18:45 pmSo now it’s “defensiveness of a corporation” to clarify that said corporation has not announced anything whatsoever? I am defendinglogicand honesty, nothing else.How does it undermine my “argument” (which is that this is nothing but unreliable rumors of a leasing offer) to point out that it’s “leasing”, and that leasing is nothing new?You keep saying (repeatedly) that I’m trying to “debunk” the rumor. No, I’m not. I didn’t say ANYTHING about whether I think the rumor is true or not. (Frankly, I don’t care whether the rumor is true or not.) I am only saying that it’s dishonest for Rossmann to call it an announcement, when nothing has been announced. Rumors aren’t announcements, and do not merit the weight of actual announcements. Especially not unsubstantiated rumors originating from a particularly unreliable outlet for tech news.Quote from: rsjsouza on March 28, 2022, 01:18:45 pmI don’t think you’ve actually comprehended a damned thing I’ve said. (Then again, you’re arguing me on things I did not say , suggest, or imply to begin with, since you’ve not kept track of who said what.) I’m not debatingwhycompanies like subscription revenue, nor that they want to move more things towards that.My point is that it’s crazy and stupid that journalists and analysts are going nuts over something THAT IS NOT NEW. Renaming a lease to “hardware subscription” doesn’t change what it is or how long they’ve been around. At least, not to anyone with half a brain.My incredulity is at people thinking it a “novelty” when it is nothing of the sort.Heck, we used to talk about software leasing (which yes, has existed for longer than just the past few years) instead of subscriptions.I also think it’s stupid for people to get their heckles raised over an unsubstantiated rumor. Y’all are already frothing at the mouth, when literally NOTHING has been announced. Nothing.

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2022, 04:47:42 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on March 28, 2022, 04:31:49 pmYes, but frothing at the mouth is theraison d'êtrefor a certain type of person where Apple is concerned, or Microsoft, or Linux, or "not Linux" , or whatever that particular individual's personalbête noireis.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2022, 05:15:01 pm
content: Quote from: PKTKS on March 28, 2022, 02:27:36 pmIt's not much of a fact when it's wrapped in inarticulate wafflings which make no logical sense and have no connection to the subject.

author: steve30
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2022, 06:18:45 pm
content: The idea of being forced into renting equipment is nothing new. For decades, the GPO (here in England) rented telephones to subscribers. It was only when it was privatised in the 1980s that people were allowed to purchase their own telephones.In some ways, this kind of thing still happens. e.g. ISPs often provide a "free" router/modem to customers, but require you to send it back or pay for it when you are no longer a customer. Sometimes they try and force you into using this specific equipment.It is also quite common for people to take out a long (12 or 24 month) mobile phone contract, paying £x per month, with a "free" phone included. They aren't really rented in the sense that you have to send it back afterwards, but you still aren't buying it upfront.I personally wouldn't go for rented hardware, but I can see how it would be appealing to some people, and profitable to companies.

author: MrMobodies
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2022, 07:17:14 pm
content: Quote from: steve30 on March 28, 2022, 06:18:45 pmInteresting, I never knew that maybe before my time.QuoteI read that BT started to do this routers from 2019 after the contract ended announcing some recycling deal they had and would charge customers to keep their old router.https://community.bt.com/t5/Bills-Packages/END-OF-CONTRACT-EQUIPMENT-RETURN/td-p/2005975QuoteIf it is nothing of interest I'd use my own stuff like I normally and use their equipment during faults.I remember before joining my existing ISP they offered me these Technicolour business gateways DWA0120's for £19 one off fee (worth about £80) and I said I didn't want them I got my own solution. The man replied that well if there is a problem you'd want one of these to confirm any faults you might be having so we can remotely have a better insight before sending out Openreach and they are yours after the contract. I thought alright then. They have a dedicate access point mode, engineers menu, syslog but there is one flaw, it exposes the web login via the gateway IP and can't find a way to stop it even with a firewall rule, the config whilst can be decrypted and altered has to be resigned with a key before it accepts it. So I just have them on standby in the cupboard and just swap the cables over to them when requedted for faults so they can do their other monitoring and tests through the ACS/TR069 which is rare.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2022, 08:49:29 pm
content: Quote from: MrMobodies on March 28, 2022, 07:17:14 pmFWIW, that’s how it was in most of the world. The 1980s were roughly when most countries loosened up their telecom systems and allowed customer-provided equipment.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2022, 09:08:03 pm
content: I gave the years for this changeover from rental to ownership of telephones in the US way up above in reply #7.

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2022, 01:25:59 am
content: Quote from: NiHaoMike on March 28, 2022, 01:58:47 pmDo you think they won't be ready to pounce on the opportunity of milking their ownuserssubscribers too?I still remember when the majority of unbranded/clone Chinese phones came with removable batteries, expandable storage, dual SIM, headphone jack(!), and a full complement of sensors --- at all a very reasonable price. Now you can barely find any that satisfy even two of those requirements. The new model is often the same as the old, with stuff removed.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2022, 03:46:30 am
content: Quote from: amyk on March 29, 2022, 01:25:59 amGood reason to develop long range P2P wireless mesh networks based on open source hardware and software to keep the telecoms honest.

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2022, 06:26:22 pm
content: Bloomberg's "tech reporter" Mark Gurman "widely regarded as one of the greatest Apple leakers of all-time"86.4% accuratelol.Fanboys aside, it'll set a precedent for consumer electronics along with tons of corporate overreach and greed. I am surprised the driver behind it all is whiny baby investors that can't handle uncertainty in their stocks, aggravated by the pandemic. They want solid numbers for revenue, stability which subscriptions theoretically provide.Looking forward to my scopes and spectrum analyzers having a subscription modelwe all know a corporation or two that would love to roll that out.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2022, 07:21:58 pm
content: The chances that Apple would stop selling hardware outright is somewhere between zero, nil, and zilch. With that out of the way, the “precedent” it would set is of a company offering leased hardware. Yeah, just like companies have been doing for ages. So again, what’s the novelty here??

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2022, 09:44:25 pm
content: QuoteWhy are you so sure? It would solve a lot of issues for them. The marketplace hasn't been ready for that kind of thing yet (not leasing or whatever you want to call it, but rent-only products) so history isn't a good indicator of future. Adobe shows that companies can and will do exactly that if they think they can get away with it, and maybe with users nowadays comfortable with the subscriptions of various kinds they are ready to go just that little bit further and accept an automatic new phone every 2 years for very little outlay. Rich gits will still be able to show they are by still getting the stupidly expensive ones.Note: I am not suggesting that Apple will do this, I am asking why it's a dead certainty that they wouldn't.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2022, 02:10:31 am
content: It’s because eliminating outright sales altogether would result in numerous negative consequences.For starters, that rentals and leases are subject to various laws in jurisdictions around the world, so eliminating sales entirely would predicate anenormouslegal effort.Second, if the point of this is to ensure an ongoing revenue stream, then they’ll need to make sure that you are financially capable of paying the fee, before they hand you a $500-1300 piece of hardware. That means credit checks. And that means having some alternate mechanism for people whofailthe credit check to obtain the device anyway. That’d have to be either a deposit or a sale, neither of which is an ongoing revenue stream.Third, they rely heavily on third party resellers (especially mobile network operators) to sell a ton of devices. If they pulled out of that, depriving those network operators of their cut of the sale price, you bet those companies would start pushing competing products HARD. That’d mean lost sales. (Remember, the number of countries where Apple doesn’t do any direct hardware sales is larger than the number of countries where they do!)Finally, they also know that there will be many customers, including some large companies, which do not want to lease. It’s be stupid to forfeit those sales entirely.Comparisons with software are pointless and disingenuous: there’s nothing to recover if someone stops paying. They just disable the software and that’s that, but no capital is lost. Hardware is very different since there’s a significant capital investment in the asset. The fact that they could remote-disable it wouldn’t magically recover the actual cost of the device.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2022, 11:44:37 am
content: QuoteThere would certainly be consequences, but would they outweigh the benefits? In the short term Apple can motor on taking a hit if there will be a good return later on. Don't forget they have so much cash they have trouble bringing it home, so there's a lot of money abroad which could usefully be spent on abroad to achieve some end.QuoteMaybe. Adobe isn't bothered by this, and perhaps Apple would go the same way: your phone phones home all the time (which they all do anyway) and won't work if it's not authorised. Sure, some toerag could decide he wants to nick it, but it will be worthless (apart from perhaps as parts) since it won't work. All phones already have that kind of capability built in but it's a drag to activate and it only deals with connections. Apple can easily extend that to just locking the entire thing.QuoteThey'll still need distributors sell the contracts, distribute the phones, update the stuff, etc. But if, over time, the sellers were no longer necessary that wouldn't be a hard stop. It would be a temporary problem if it happened overnight, but it won't.QuoteYes, but as I pointed out, things have changed a lot and now leasing software is now accepted as normal. And phones are not exactly irreplaceable as software is - if you lose the phone or switch brand you don't find you can no longer contact all your old friends! I don't think the leasing aspect will be much of a problem for an Apple product - you buy into the walled garden precisely because Apple basically oversee everything. Finally, you already cough a subscription on phones just to make calls. Extending that to the hardware won't be a big issue. The lack of old ewaste in the drawer you can't get rid of, and a new model every year or two, will be attractive.QuoteMaybe. The economics will change anyway since you don't want the old phones you've just upgraded polluting the market, so the hardware would have to be disposable (at least recyclable) and losing some will be priced in. Phones can also tell the bounty hunters where they are...

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2022, 12:42:38 pm
content: Quote from: dunkemhigh on March 30, 2022, 11:44:37 amDecimating their market share during that period would be something that would be very difficult to recover from.Quote from: dunkemhigh on March 30, 2022, 11:44:37 amAgain, comparisons with software are disingenuous. If an Adobe customer stops paying, Adobe doesn’t lose anything (other than a customer). If a hardware rental customer stops paying, they have lost the hardware, and recovering it would likely exceed its value. This is why leasing and renting at sensible rates requires a credit check, and why no-credit-check/low credit score rentals are obscenely expensive.Apple already has activation locks, etc., which they already use to lock demo devices stolen from stores. (Which is why some devices aren’t even locked down.) But even such devices have some residual value on the used market.Quote from: dunkemhigh on March 30, 2022, 11:44:37 amThe whole point here, as I understood it, was that the “subscription” would be billed just like Apple’s online services. I cannot imagine any scenario where Apple would want to force resellers into being agents for a financial service. It just doesn’t make sense if the goal is to increase your own revenue.What do you mean about resellers needing to “update” the phones? Arguably the most important change Apple caused in the mobile phone industry is breaking the carriers’ stronghold on phone software. To this day, Apple does not create carrier-specific software, nor give them veto power over software releases. (They only allow carriers to create config files for the OS.)Quote from: dunkemhigh on March 30, 2022, 11:44:37 amRepeat after me until you actuallyunderstandthis: Hardware 👏 is 👏 not 👏 software. 👏The fact that software companies have been able to force consumers and small businesses into subscriptions (a change that didn’t affect large customers anyway, since they have used subscription-style site licenses since forever) doesn’t mean it translates into hardware.People but Apple because they want stuff thatworks.The fact that the walled garden is how Apple provides this doesn’t mean the walled garden is the thing people are after.Quote from: dunkemhigh on March 30, 2022, 11:44:37 amIf Apple didn’t want “old” phones “polluting” the market, they wouldn’t sell refurb units, nor sell on pre-owned units onto the secondary market, which they do.And if Apple wanted to artificially limit the useful life of “old” phones, they wouldn’t offer the hands-down, by a wide margin, longest software support for their phones.Just… sorry, none of your argument makes sense.

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2022, 01:05:47 pm
content: Quote from: dunkemhigh on March 30, 2022, 11:44:37 amThat's an unwarranted assertion. There are a lot of people who point blank refuse to use subscription based software, myself included. You only have to note the number of comments along the lines of "No. Hell, no! Never!" that come up on here whenever the subject is raised. So "now accepted as normal" - not proven in my opinion.Anyone who has ever experienced a few months of "no money", or has the imagination and is realistic enough to know that it could happen to them, ought to think twice before putting themselves into the situation where things they expect to have the use of for everyday living could go away if they temporarily can't afford the subscription/rental/leasing payments on something. You'd be well stuffed if you lost your jobanddidn't have the use of your phone while arranging interviews etc.

author: MrMobodies
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2022, 02:58:52 pm
content: Quote from: Cerebus on March 30, 2022, 01:05:47 pmI have seen that argument used before.Normally I expect, yes or no but I have seen "accepting them" in there and sometimes "don't know" but then I expect the facts to be explained clearly before making a yes or no.Reminds me of this in 2011:https://www.cnet.com/tech/home-entertainment/weve-had-enough-of-on-screen-logos/https://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/aboutthebbc/2011/04/digital-on-screen-graphics-res.shtmlQuoteAttached page capture shows complaints and criticism in the comments section.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2022, 03:29:32 pm
content: QuoteSorry to be blunt, but your head is in the sand over this. Already companies like DJI and Boox effectively lend you their hardware, and hardly anyone cares now. And if that doesn't give you pause for thought, just try and buy a John Deere tractor and see how much you own that!

author: PKTKS
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2022, 04:31:54 pm
content: So.. risking to be blamed and insulted again...Let me get straight ... there seems to be a free will consent..That goingbackto 50/60s years where insanely expensivecosts made rent hardware the single viable option..back to 21st century (as said above)decreasingcosts...made hardware a commodity easy to ditch and replace. (not even repair is an issue..)And so.. the rent-seekers are trying not only increase profit margins..but also remove any alternative of ownership or possession so to sustain an infinite rent model easily and cheapest than 50/60s high costs...Nice.. we should all gave ou r social life and data and free will to huge corporations..Last question:- who to blame in the case of insecurity incidents..- data counterfeit..- loss of data and access to vital education and general information..Now controlled by these half dozen (fill blank) corps?what you can see can hear can download...can even STORE in cloud.. etc...No thanks. Thisback to the future pastsoundsBSPaul

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2022, 11:22:36 pm
content: Quote from: dunkemhigh on March 30, 2022, 03:29:32 pmYou're confounding different things.I don’t know what you’re referring to with DJI and Boox, since I don’t use their products, but they’re clearly selling the hardware. Same with John Deere. The “you bought the hardware but don’t own it” is a legitimate, but unrelated tangent. John Deere isn’t going to hand you over a tractor for a monthly fee with no credit check.Point is, hardware leasing/rental and software rental aren’t the same thing because hardware and software are fundamentally different. Claiming otherwise is dishonest. So stop being dishonest.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2022, 11:31:24 pm
content: QuoteI am not being dishonest and not trying to be. I resent you insinuating that I am doing that - you are basically calling me a liar, and I would like you to retract that slur.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2022, 11:40:18 pm
content: Then stop claiming over and over again that because the software industry has shifted more and more towards the subscription model, that this applies to hardware, too.There is a real cost to every unit made for hardware. Software can be replicated for costs so low that we can consider it free.Refusing to acknowledge this fact, and the ramifications it has on leasing/rental, is either intellectual dishonesty or just plain stupidity.

author: eti
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2022, 11:42:22 pm
content: The bs that people read and believe. 😂Wake up. This is baseless speculation and RUMOUR. HELLO?

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2022, 12:21:12 pm
content: Tooki, it's clear that you didn't grasp the point I was trying to make, whether that's because your are fixated on your point of view or because I didn't explain it well enough. A reasonable person would ask for a better explanation.Instead, Tooki, you metaphorically stuck your fingers in your ears and created this "hardware same as software" strawman which you attributed falsely to me. Then used that as the basis for anad hominemattack.So, I politely ask you once again to withdraw the slur, the false accusation, which is entirely based on something you've made up.--- I have NOT said that hardware is the same as software. Where I have referenced software it has been toillustrate attitudes to the subscription model, that's all.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2022, 12:29:16 pm
content: Quote from: eti on March 30, 2022, 11:42:22 pmHey, how's the hangover?Maybe you don't recall my previous response to your diatribe last night, but this bit you agreed with (until you withdrew your posts):Quote

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2022, 12:38:45 pm
content: Quote from: MrMobodies on March 30, 2022, 02:58:52 pmI've read that about seven times now, and I still don't know what you're trying to say. Perhaps a rephrase is in order?

author: MT
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2022, 02:51:14 pm
content: Quote from: Cerebus on March 27, 2022, 10:17:15 amIn 2002 people "did" lease cars. BMW are nothing more then pieces of plastic crap particularly the 3 series! Anyone who puts in plastic pieces inside the engine is all Schwabians: You own nothingand you will be happy! Recently even GRETA figured out now shes been had behind the curtain. Back in the 80 and 90ies all high end software was on per rented model, the "paying for a temporary seat"at the table of famous Cadence and Mentor crap thing you know. Leasing puts the leaser in total enslavement to the owner of the leasing company (WEF) you are being "owned". Want to lease yoursoldering iron? Your pants? Good riddance then.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2022, 04:49:00 pm
content: Quote from: dunkemhigh on March 31, 2022, 12:21:12 pmNo, you’ve repeatedly raised software (e.g. Adobe) to illustrate that moving to subscription-only “works”, and that specific issues I raised regarding hardware rental/leasing (the need to somehow protect the value of the hardware asset) didn’t cause issues for Adobe, completely ignoring the key point, which is that software subscriptions do not HAVE an asset to protect!It definitely wasn’t just about attitudes towards acceptance of the subscription model. The reason I am arguing you about “hardware is not software” is because ALL of your responses to my objections for why going subscription-only is unlikely have been to say “well it worked for the software industry”. You haven’t providedanysubstantive responses to my objections. (I did not claim anywhere that yousaidoutright “hardware is the same as software”. I’m only saying that you’reactingas if they were.)Edit: fixed missing closing quote, and added “outright”.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2022, 06:55:04 pm
content: QuoteJust one example:QuoteYou are explicitly accusing me of being dishonest. I would like you to retract that if it's not what you meant to write.Seriously, I didn't think you were consciously being malicious but I have to say that if this is a demonstration of your level of debate - using personal attacks in place of considering alternative points of view - I can't imagine why anyone would dare to discuss anything with you. I certainly won't, now.

author: MrMobodies
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2022, 10:46:16 pm
content: Quote from: Cerebus on March 31, 2022, 12:38:45 pmSorry.Someone proclaiming that something is accepted as normal and remembering seeing this argument/statement used by the BBC 10 years ago during their research on persistent screen logos/digital on screen graphics and the annoyance they can cause.Yes/No and sometimes I see "unsure" but*"broadlyacceptingof them" in the survey research below.Here is what I was referencing it too:https://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/aboutthebbc/2011/04/digital-on-screen-graphics-res.shtmlQuote

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2022, 08:15:05 pm
content: Quote from: dunkemhigh on March 31, 2022, 06:55:04 pmSorry, I did word it poorly. I’ve changed it slightly in that post (with edit notes for full disclosure).My assertion, behind which I continue to stand, is that it is dishonest to argue based on the premise that hardware and software are the same (or that hardware and softwaremarketsare the same). You’ve consistently done that, coming back to “well the software industry did it” as your only actual argument. Meanwhile, you’ve left numerous other issues, including explicit questions, unanswered.So can you blame me for getting frustrated with you?I enumerated sundry specific issues with why I think it wouldn’t work, and you’ve only responded with “but the software industry did it!”.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2022, 08:18:10 pm
content: Quote from: MrMobodies on March 31, 2022, 10:46:16 pmNo offense, but I still can’t make heads or tails of what you’re trying to get across. Your incomplete sentences don’t create a train of thought for the reader.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2022, 09:09:21 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on April 03, 2022, 08:15:05 pmEdit: Deleted this post because I realised I was wrong - you really are being malicious and it seems to turn you on. Absolutely no point in trying to engage with you on this or anything else.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2022, 09:17:47 pm
content: Quote from: Cerebus on March 30, 2022, 01:05:47 pmYou are not an average example. I won't touch subscription-based software either but I acknowledge that I am also not an average user (really, you need to stop thinking you're the centre of everything and the perfect example for any situation).I think my assertion stands because you only have to look at how peopleareaccepting of subscriptions, not least all those users that are paying the subscriptions. The purchasers of things like smart doorbells who pay subscriptions to use them. Similarly some CCTV and alarms (honest, I can't fathom how anyone can think that's a good idea, but it is apparently a thing).You might also care to recall that you are ignoring me.

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2022, 11:28:32 pm
content: Quote from: dunkemhigh on April 03, 2022, 09:17:47 pmThank you for reminding me why there's little point in trying to engage with you like an adult; failure to read what I actually said, unnecessary ad-hominem arguments, and finishing up with a childish dig. How the heck you turn a "me included" as an afterthought into "really, you need to stop thinking you're the centre of everything and the perfect example for any situation" would probably require the services of an expensive alienist to explain.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2022, 12:25:36 am
content: QuoteIt was irrelevant except to say "I am a counter-example". Which, it has to be said, is very common hereabouts - suggest something and someone will be the edge case that refutes it.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 05, 2022, 05:48:08 pm
content: Quote from: dunkemhigh on April 03, 2022, 09:09:21 pmNo, absolutely no malice here. Just no tolerance for BS.

author: MrMobodies
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 05, 2022, 07:05:48 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on April 03, 2022, 08:18:10 pmOkay, I'll try and improve, I was comparing some set of words that "dunkemhigh" said that was once used by the BBC in a controversial topic over 10 years ago.Sorry I sometimes have problems explaining things.