Beginners Road To Repair - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / beginners

author: don@cascadefellowship.org
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2018, 12:42:10 am
content: Hi everyone! After watching some videos on the YouTube channel I feel this may be the right place to introduce myself and ask my question. Here is my question:What videos should I watch (and in what order) so that I may gain the knowledge needed to repair the piece of gear shown in this picture?Now some background and additional information. I have a beginners level of knowledge of electronics as it relates to audio engineering. I have a DMM and an O-Scope as well as a good soldering iron. The piece of equipment is a BBE Acoustimax which is an active DI box used for guitars and bass. A DI box such as this does two things. 1. Outputs a mic level signal that an audio console can accept. 2. Allows you to change how your guitar sounds by using some effects. I happen to really like this unit and was bummed when it stopped working. I thought it would serve as a good project that I could use to further my knowledge of electronics repair, which can be really handy for an audio engineer.The problems that I'm seeing is that the DPDT switches do not illuminate the green LED's next to each switch (the one on the right is partially obscured by the top of the switch) and the unit does not pass any signal from input to any output.Here's what I've already done to help solve the problem. I've tested the power supply to the unit (both on it's own and under load) and it seems to be working. I've verified that the unit switches on by observing the lit red LED you see in the picture. I've removed, tested and reinstalled the two capacitors next to the incoming power supply, although I only tested them with my DMM and not an ESR. I've visually inspected the boards and found no obvious signs of damage (like burnt components or misshapen components). I've hooked up the input and output and verified that the unit is not passing signal.Here's what I would like to learn and some more supporting questions. How do I learn to read the traces on a PCB board to get a general idea of how current flows from one component to the next and how do I test that along the way in order to determine where the problem is? How do I learn to test the components? What components fail more frequently and which do you usually check first? How does one usually approach repairing a PCB board of this type when there are no visual signs of damage?I know this is a lot and I hope I set the problem up in a simple and big picture way. Thanks!Don

author: Dubbie
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 26, 2018, 12:57:50 am
content: Is the input AC or DC?It's hard to see anything on the low resolution photograph.if it is AC, have you checked the negative rail as well as the positive?

author: don@cascadefellowship.org
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2018, 01:04:42 am
content: It's 12VAC. I'm sorry about the small picture. You should be able to click on it to view it larger in your browser. I had to downsize it to get it under the size limit. If you'd like I can send you the original, it's quite larger. I have not checked the negative rail. How would you identify that and test it? I have tested the power on the switch terminals but that's as far as I've gotten.

author: BrianHG
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2018, 01:06:31 am
content: With 3 diodes at the input, 1 facing up and 2 down, this preamp will only work properly with an adapter which has an AC output. If he is using a DC out adapter, one of the power rails wont get + or - power.

author: don@cascadefellowship.org
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2018, 01:07:43 am
content: Quote from: BrianHG on June 26, 2018, 01:06:31 amI'm using the proper 12VAC power supply for the unit.

author: Dubbie
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 26, 2018, 01:07:58 am
content: Start by looking up the datasheets for the voltage regulators. You can see what pin is supposed to be the output. Then you can check if there is a plausible voltage on there. If so, check the op-amps (google their datasheets), and make sure they have the right voltages on their power pins.

author: don@cascadefellowship.org
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2018, 01:14:06 am
content: Quote from: Dubbie on June 26, 2018, 01:07:58 amThere's printing I can read on one of the regulators but not the other. The one I can read says the following:PM32AJLM34OT127812 P+Which part of this text is used to correctly find the data sheet? I see that the shape of the regulators is not the same. Without the text, how can I find the information on the other regulator?

author: Dubbie
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 26, 2018, 01:17:15 am
content: that regulator is a very common one. The number you will come to recognise is: 7812 P+That means the 12V positive variant of the 78xx family of regulators.The other regulator will be most likely the negative one.It's probably a 7912 which is the negative version of the other one.

author: don@cascadefellowship.org
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2018, 01:21:21 am
content: Quote from: Dubbie on June 26, 2018, 01:17:15 amGotcha! I've found a datasheet for the L7812 series. Here's ahttps://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&ved=2ahUKEwj8sd2Zk_DbAhXCjlQKHeWQAFYQFjABegQIARAB&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.hobbytronics.co.uk%2Fdatasheets%2FL7812.pdf&usg=AOvVaw1wjXOcxDJQGNbPlMPjpT_e. Is this what I'm looking for?

author: Dubbie
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 26, 2018, 01:24:14 am
content: Yep.You can see the pinout on page2.Skimreading the datasheets for the various parts will give you lots of info and help you figure out what is doing what on the board.

author: don@cascadefellowship.org
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2018, 02:06:10 am
content: Quote from: Dubbie on June 26, 2018, 01:24:14 amOk. So both regulators seem to be input, ground, output (with pins down from left to right). While testing the 7812 with my DMM (black lead on ground) I'm getting 3.4 volts on input and .08 volts on output. On the 7912 I'm getting 16.9 volts on input and 5 volts on output. However, this pinout doesn't jive with the 7912 data sheet which shows ground, input, output (again pins down from left to right). I'm not sure which model the regulator without the printing is.If I'm reading the data sheet on the 7812 correctly, I don't think it's operating up to spec.

author: Old Printer
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2018, 02:17:13 am
content: By putting the name of the unit into Google it first took me to their website. First thing they said was this is an all analog device, which will make troubleshooting easier. By adding "schematic" to the search phrase I wound up at a site called Freestompboxes where one of their pass-times seems to be hunting down schematics and reverse engineering pedals. You need to join to get complete access, but one poster seemed to have either the factory schematic or had reversed it himself. That would really give you a leg up. It is amazing the info that can be ferreted out with some perseverance. Good luck with your repair, it looks like a pretty straight forward circuit.

author: don@cascadefellowship.org
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2018, 02:21:18 am
content: Update: After looking at the other voltage regulator (the one that I thought didn't have any writing on it) with a flashlight, I was able to see some printing on it. It's indeed a 7912 regulator. I've got my DMM set to DC and I don't think either regulator is outputting 12 volts. Are they both bad? Am I doing this right?

author: Dubbie
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 26, 2018, 02:24:35 am
content: Ok, so now there are a couple of possibilities, there could be a fault with the power regulators or their supply. OR there could be a short somewhere in the rest of the circuit that is pulling the voltage right down. If would be good if you could identify a way to disconnect the power supply from the rest of the board. That will allow you to see where the problem is.

author: StillTrying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2018, 11:20:27 am
content: Quote from: don@cascadefellowship.org on June 26, 2018, 02:06:10 amSome of your voltage readingsseemlike you might not have the DMM black on a 0V/gnd.I'd check if the 7812 and 7912 have a pin connected directly together, that will be 0V/gnd and then find which of the 3 pins on the nearby socket is 0V/gnd, and measure ALL voltages from there.

author: BrianHG
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2018, 11:37:08 am
content: It sounds like his input power rectifier diodes are blown open, or, his AC power switch is open, or, the +12v regulator is shorted to GND, or the power input filter caps are blown to a short (this last one would be unusual without smoke and residue coming out of one of those 21 electrolytic caps).

author: don@cascadefellowship.org
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2018, 03:33:09 pm
content: Quote from: Dubbie on June 26, 2018, 02:24:35 amCan I do that by unplugging the power supply? It's a barrel connector on the small pcb board. I've also just removed the large pcb board from the small board by unplugging the ribbon cables. Testing the regulators this way yields 3.4 volts on input and .08 volts on output of the 7812 and 17.9 volts on input and 5.3 volts on output. These seem identical to the readings I got when both pcb boards were connected.

author: don@cascadefellowship.org
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2018, 03:43:02 pm
content: Quote from: StillTrying on June 26, 2018, 11:20:27 amAh! I think I may have been incorrect about the ground pin on the 7912. With pins facing down the 7912 is ground, input, output from left to right. I was testing that one incorrectly. Both grounds are tied directly together by a trace on the board. If I check both inputs and outputs using either ground I get the same results. Here are the readings from both regulators now tested correctly.7812Input 3.4 voltsOutput .08 volts7912Input -17.9 voltsOutput -11.9 volts

author: don@cascadefellowship.org
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2018, 03:45:06 pm
content: Quote from: BrianHG on June 26, 2018, 11:37:08 amI'll start learning how to check all of those components in that order and post my results. I can verify that all the components and the boards do not show and burn marks or blow outs.

author: don@cascadefellowship.org
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2018, 04:16:23 pm
content: Quote from: don@cascadefellowship.org on June 26, 2018, 03:45:06 pmChecking the 3 input diodes with my DMM (with power off using the diode mode) yields between .56 volts and .59 volts for all three. Reversing the leads on each one showed no flow.

author: don@cascadefellowship.org
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2018, 04:27:04 pm
content: Quote from: don@cascadefellowship.org on June 26, 2018, 03:45:06 pmChecking continuity on the 7812 regulator shows that the ground and the output are shorted together. The ground and the input does not have continuity. On the 7912 both the input to ground and the output to ground do not have continuity. Does that mean I've identified a likely problem in that the 7812 ground and output show continuity?

author: StillTrying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2018, 04:43:13 pm
content: "Checking continuity on the 7812 regulator shows that the ground and the output are shorted together."If you're sure it's a dead short, for quickness I'd just neatly snip the output leg of the 7812 at the 90 deg. bend myself, to see if the short is the 7812 itself or somewhere on the 12V line.

author: don@cascadefellowship.org
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2018, 05:25:55 pm
content: Quote from: StillTrying on June 26, 2018, 04:43:13 pmI'm totally not sure of anything! LOL! I popped the 7812 regulator off the board and checked it. The short is not on the regulator but somewhere else on the 12 volt line. How does one go about tracking a 12 volt line looking for a short? Is it a matter of just following the trace of the 12 volt and ground lines to find where they short?

author: don@cascadefellowship.org
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2018, 05:51:57 pm
content: Quote from: Old Printer on June 26, 2018, 02:17:13 amHere is the schematic I got from the website.

author: CJay
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2018, 05:54:32 pm
content: There are two connectors from the 'regulator' board to the main board, disconnect those and see if the short disappears.I have a suspicion it won't.There are two yellow blobs on the regualtor board near the jack inputs, they're tantalum capacitors, C29 and the other next to the QC sticker.I would be desoldering those if the short doesn't disappear when you unplug the main board.

author: don@cascadefellowship.org
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2018, 05:59:59 pm
content: Quote from: CJay on June 26, 2018, 05:54:32 pmI have disconnected the two boards and the short remains. I've taken the 7812 off the board and the short remains. I'll pop the C29 and C46 capacitors off the board (testing after each one) to see if the short remains.

author: CJay
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2018, 06:08:59 pm
content: If nothing else we may have isolated the fault to the smaller board so that's just made the problem a lot simpler to troubleshoot as there are far fewer parts on itHopefully it's one of the two tantalum caps.If that doesn't sort the problem out then it would be useful to be able to see the track side of the board as well as a decent close up of the top side, it helps us as we can trace the circuit out then and make better suggestions

author: don@cascadefellowship.org
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2018, 06:34:36 pm
content: Quote from: CJay on June 26, 2018, 05:54:32 pmI have removed both tantalum capacitors and the short remains between ground and output of 7812.

author: CJay
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2018, 06:53:39 pm
content: OK, just spotted another tantalum (they're nasty little things prone to shorting out so they're the first place to look if you spot them), it's next to the leftmost switch, I think it's C32, lift that one.Be aware they're polarity sensitive and will need to go back in the same way round. .Can you post a pic of the track side of the board please?

author: don@cascadefellowship.org
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2018, 07:02:40 pm
content: Quote from: CJay on June 26, 2018, 06:53:39 pmI've removed the third tantalum and the short remains. I did not pay attention to their polarity when removing them. I assume I can test for polarity? Here are the closeups of the board. I'll have to post them in three posts (two pics to a post). I just noticed something. Take a look at the ground pin hole of the 7812. There seems to be another component hole right next to it and they're both connected by solder (there was no component in this other hole).

author: don@cascadefellowship.org
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2018, 07:03:26 pm
content: Next two.

author: don@cascadefellowship.org
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2018, 07:04:00 pm
content: Last two.

author: CJay
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2018, 07:24:11 pm
content: OK, shame and I should have thought to mention about the capacitors being polarised but we can deal with that in a bit.Handily the two 8 pin chips are connected to the 12V rail with a wire link each so we can lift one end of them to isolate the chips, I've circled them

author: BrianHG
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2018, 07:25:40 pm
content: If it is not the caps, I can only see that IC6 is blown pin 5 to 8 as a short, but how?This is so rare to near impossible with all the other IO connections to that op-amp having huge series resistors.Being CMOS, the way it is hooked up, you would need an absurd jolt to make that happen.

author: don@cascadefellowship.org
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2018, 07:44:21 pm
content: Quote from: CJay on June 26, 2018, 07:24:11 pmI've lifted one end of each of the wires and the short remains.

author: CJay
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2018, 07:54:30 pm
content: Then I think there's only C38 left...

author: BrianHG
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2018, 08:25:21 pm
content: Quote from: CJay on June 26, 2018, 07:54:30 pmSeriously, there is like nothing else. If this isn't the problem, or by some fluke even C40 isn't the problem, we may be looking at a hidden grown 'Tin Whisker' short between 2 adjacent pads somewhere on the PCB.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2018, 09:58:00 pm
content: The best way to learn to repair things is practice, practice practice, with each success (or failure) you will learn something. Look around on trash day for stuff to scavenge, or post an ad in a local forum asking for free broken electronics to practice on. It took me a lot of practice to get to where i was fixing more things than I was breaking worse than they started.

author: don@cascadefellowship.org
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2018, 06:47:47 pm
content: Quote from: CJay on June 26, 2018, 07:54:30 pmIsn't it always the last thing you check!? LOL. After removing C38, the short is gone! I'm going to re-install the components I removed in reverse order checking after each component to make sure things are still cool.

author: don@cascadefellowship.org
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2018, 07:24:43 pm
content: Quote from: CJay on June 26, 2018, 07:24:11 pmNow how do I find out the polarity of these tantalum caps? And, equally important, how do I tell which way they go back in the PCB? There's no indicator on the board for polarity like the other caps and I'm not sure how to read the schematic to determine which way they go in. For example, I can see that C32 feeds into the positive pin of IC6A while passing R63. Can I assume that the IC6A side of the tantalum cap is supposed to be the positive side?

author: CJay
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2018, 07:54:16 pm
content: If there's no polarity marking on the board they may not be polarised but if you can post a pic of any writing on the caps we will be able to work it out.Oh, put the links back one at a time and check to kake sure the sort doesn't raeappear (I don't think it will), the reconnect the larger board and check again.Put the regulator back in and check, then I think you can probably power it up...

author: TimNJ
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2018, 07:56:37 pm
content: You should find another point on the circuit which you know is connected to either end of the capacitor and test continuity between that point and either of the capacitor's pads on the PCB. You should be able to determine which pad is for + and which is for - based on that. For instance, the schematic tells you that pin 6 of the BBE 2153 chip is connected to V+ (the positive supply rail). Put one of your multimeter probes on pin 6, and the other on either pad of C38. If it beeps, then it's connected.Based on the fact that one tantalum already popped, I'd probably replace them with aluminum electrolytics. 100uF/16V is readily available in that size.

author: CJay
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2018, 08:15:36 pm
content: Quote from: TimNJ on June 27, 2018, 07:56:37 pmNo tantalums popped, it was an electrolytic. I'm now not sure the yellow capacitors were tantalums either so let's not confuse matters.

author: don@cascadefellowship.org
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2018, 08:22:00 pm
content: Quote from: CJay on June 27, 2018, 08:15:36 pmHere's a close up of C29, C32 and C46. The text is very hard to make out but it seems there's just a number. Disregard the sharpie mark on the left side. I was doing some research online and found a post that indicated that when looking at the number side, the negative might be on the left. So I marked then with a sharpie.

author: TimNJ
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2018, 08:25:51 pm
content: Ah I'm sorry for the confusion. Misread a post above.Those are definitely just standard multi-layer ceramic capacitors (MLCCs). They're fine!105 is just the capacitor code. 105 means 1uF.See here:https://synthrotek.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/Capacitor-Codes.pdf

author: don@cascadefellowship.org
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2018, 08:30:56 pm
content: Quote from: TimNJ on June 27, 2018, 08:25:51 pmAh yes! After googling some images for tantalum and for mlcc I can see that, even though they may be similar, you can see some obvious differences. I don't believe I have to worry about polarity with C29, C32 and C46.

author: CJay
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2018, 08:54:35 pm
content: What he said, they're not polarised

author: don@cascadefellowship.org
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2018, 08:59:30 pm
content: Quote from: CJay on June 27, 2018, 07:54:16 pmI've put the ceramic caps and the regulator back in and reconnected the boards. So far the short has not reappeared. Time to buy a new electrolytic cap and see what's what!

author: Dubbie
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 27, 2018, 09:18:59 pm
content: Nice one.These repair threads are always fun!

author: StillTrying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2018, 10:04:24 pm
content: I don't think there's much reason why you couldn't test it without the 100u. Connect the DMM to 0V and 12V points before applying power, and switch off quick if it's not 11.5V to 12.5V, and keep eyes and face away from the PCB just in case!

author: don@cascadefellowship.org
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2018, 05:20:45 pm
content: So a got the new cap in (I finally found a place that's local that stocks this stuff!) and it's working great! Thanks to everyone who helped me out here! This is a great forum!I'm going to note some things here for future reference so I can build on what I learned.My Steps For Repair:1. Test external power supplies.2. Visually inspect components on PCB's looking for things that are blown or burned.3. Check input and output of voltage regulators.4. If there's a problem on a voltage rail then check each component on that rail until you find the problem.Things I Learned:-Desoldering braid is really annoying. I need a faster desoldering solution.-Electrolytic capacitors tend to go bad so check those first.

author: StillTrying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2018, 06:48:10 pm
content: Quote from: don@cascadefellowship.org on July 01, 2018, 05:20:45 pmFor a dead short you can often pass a few 100mA through the 0V and 12V rail, and then measure the mV drops along the rails, when you get to the lowest mV drop you're very close to the short. You might have been able to use this method with the 80mV the 7812 was already outputting, we forgot to tell you about that.

author: gcewing
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2018, 01:40:23 am
content: I haven't tried it myself, but I'm told that desoldering braid works a lot better if you apply extra flux. It seems that many brands don't come with enough built in.

author: Shock
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2018, 07:46:14 am
content: Quote from: gcewing on October 04, 2018, 01:40:23 amIt gets old and the braid also gets tarnished/oxidized, helps if you keep it in a sealed bag.

author: CJay
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2018, 10:21:17 am
content: Quote from: don@cascadefellowship.org on July 01, 2018, 05:20:45 pmIt's a matter of getting used to the tools and knowing which to use for which job.Personally (and this is personal taste, almost everyone has a different preference) I usually use braid for cleaning up after I've desoldered, I find it frustratingly long winded and awkward for most desoldering jobs (it is useful for desoldering seams or removing 'bulk' solder).If you're going to use it, buy decent braid, there is a world of difference between a nasty cheap braid and a high quality (expensive) one from Chemtronics (Soderwick, hate the name, love the product)I prefer a decent solder sucker, I find they work very well on through hole components, single sided, double sided and multilayer through hole plated boards.Other people will tell you they destroy boards and are useless.I believe it to be a skill thing, some people get on with them, others not so much, buy a foot of small bore silicone tube that's a tight fit to the sucker tip, cut off 5-10mm lengths and slip one over the end of the solder sucker tip so it extends the tip by a couple of mm, it saves the tip and, if you're not practiced in the technique, it also saves the board.If you have problems removing solder, add solder, it's easier to suck up a lot of solder than a little and wetting the joint will make it flow better anyway.I've also tried desoldering irons, the Pro's Kit one I have is crap, similarly the (very expensive) OK Industries one I used to have was better but generally more effort than it was worth and I found I spent far more time maintaining it than it saved.Other people swear by them, YMMV, unfortunately the only way to find out what works for you is to try it and see.