Siglent SDS804/814X HD or Rigol HDO914S for Mechatronics student - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: Jack359
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 22, 2024, 10:14:29 am
content: Hello,I'm about to buy my first serious digital oscilloscope and my budget is around 600 USD.Till now I was using mostly my fathers old analog one for hobby projects.Im situated in Europe and first was between Siglent SDS804X HD and Rigol HDO804. When looking at the prices I saw that from China I can get Rigol HDO914S for a bit more than Siglent SDS804X HD in Europe or the same price as SDS814X HD.Which one would be the most complete package? I will probably not use most of it anyways at first but would like to future proof myself.I'm starting my Bachelor in Mechatronics so I would like to have a nice private oscilloscope.I have found only comparison threads between SDS804X HD and HDO804 and from which I can see that SDS804X HD is superior but how about compared to HDO914S?Thanks.

author: Grandchuck
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 22, 2024, 11:22:20 am
content: Be sure to buy from a vendor that will take care of any problems that might arise. I lean toward Siglent.Good luck with your studies.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 22, 2024, 03:31:47 pm
content: I hate Rigol, but if you search for the HDO900 series on this site, you'll see that even Rigol people don't like the 900 series.There's nothing better in that price range than the SDS800X HD series.

author: eTobey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 23, 2024, 07:29:24 am
content: You should not spent hundrets of dollars (or your currency) for something that you have in general no glue about. Work out your preferences with a used digital scope before. Also you most likely need other equipment too, so save your money. In the meantime, there might be a better model, or the prices would have come down.The Siglent might have a lot of features, but it also has a lot of issues (people here dont like the b-word). Just for example, the grid does not always align with the numbers, so you will quickly get confused about your levels. And working on a project, this would be inacceptable (at least for me).The Rigol might not be as good as the Siglent, but it has features, that you have to consider.

author: hansibull
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 23, 2024, 07:45:58 am
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on September 22, 2024, 03:31:47 pmI don't own a Rigol scope (I have a Siglent SDS1000X HD), but why do users "hate" the 900 series? Isn't logic analyzer capabilities nice to have? It certainly can't beworsethan the 800?

author: eTobey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 23, 2024, 08:15:39 am
content: I read that is wors than the 800 (hangs, bugs and more).BTW. If you need proper timestamps on the files in the scope, dont buy the siglent. It has time, but its unreliable, and it does not work at all without internet connection.

author: csuhi17
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 23, 2024, 08:39:24 am
content: Only from a local seller, with whom you will be able to enforce the warranty if necessary.In the case of Chinese purchases, you would have a difficult time.Rigol issues updates more slowly, and in the latest update there is a bug that prevents the scope app from starting and the device becomes unusable for the time being. We hope it will be resolved soon.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 23, 2024, 08:58:52 am
content: Quote from: hansibull on September 23, 2024, 07:45:58 amThe key design flaw of the DHO900 series is that using its digital inputs cuts the analog sampling rate in half. (And that sampling rate is already low: 1.25 GSa/s in total are obviously not enough to support the advertised 250 MHz bandwidth on 4 channels.) The DHO900 series is the only scope I am aware of which compromises the sampling rate in that way; all others seem to sample their digital channels independently.If you want to compare the Siglent SDS800X HD family vs. the Rigol DHO800/900, I would say that the Rigol is more beginner-friendly because of its UI. It typically offers all relevant settings in a large dialog box, where Siglent often distributes them over multiple side-panel menus. Conversely, the Siglent offers more advanced functionality, especially for signal analysis -- its firmware is the same as in the larger scopes, with only a few features removed for technical or market segmentation reasons.Since the OP specifically states that he is looking for a "serious" oscilloscope, I would recommend the Siglent SDS800X HD series.

author: NE666
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 23, 2024, 09:28:30 am
content: Quote from: Jack359 on September 22, 2024, 10:14:29 amBy my estimation (UK reseller pricing), that's around 120 to 150 USD premium for the 914S, over the DHO804 from europe?If so, unless you attach significant value to gaining experience with (basic) mixed signal capabilities and/or have very limited bench space and absolutely must have a 3-in-1 instrument, I don't think that's really as good value as it seems. You will still need the logic analyser cable to use that feature (250+ USD from Rigol, clones available) and the single channel ARB is very basic in its features and spec.If Rigol is your choice, I'd suggest buying the 804 from a regional reseller with some level of after-sales service and support. Spend 20 USD on a cheap USB LA and put the rest of the saving towards a much more flexible low-end ARB generator from either Siglent or Rigol when/if you find you need it.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 23, 2024, 05:12:53 pm
content: Quote from: eTobey on September 23, 2024, 07:29:24 amYour first sentence is quite ironic. 😉 Most of the issues you have reported are PEBKAC errors. That's not the scope's fault. If a device doesn't do something you want it to do, the way you want it to do it, despite not being advertised to do that thing in that way, does not make it a bug.If you want a scope with an RTC, you should buy a scope with an RTC.More importantly, for theactualbugs, Siglent is very good about updates to correct them. Rigol is famously terrible about this.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 23, 2024, 05:25:30 pm
content: Quote from: Jack359 on September 22, 2024, 10:14:29 amI wouldn't get the HDO900 series, it has no real advantages over the HDO800. If you can get a cheap HDO804 then go for that instead. It can easily be persuaded to think it's a DHO924.For Mechatronics you could also look around for a deal on a Rigol MSO5074.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 23, 2024, 05:28:22 pm
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on September 23, 2024, 05:12:53 pmTo be fair, eTobey has found a significant number of actual bugs -- more than anyone else on the forum, and more than I had expected to be present in the scope. But I agree that Siglent has fixed a large share of them quite promptly, and with an active presence here in the forum to get clarity on some of them. Certainly better than Rigol in that respect.And regarding a real-time clock, neither the Rigol DHO800/900 nor the Siglent SDS800X HD have a battery-buffered clock. Both rely on getting the current time from an NTP server upon boot, and neither of them claims otherwise in the datasheet. NTP time works reliably for most users; sporadic problems are probably due to choosing an unreliable external NTP server or using the built-in (unsupported) NTP server on a Windows computer.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 23, 2024, 05:29:28 pm
content: Quote from: hansibull on September 23, 2024, 07:45:58 amYeah, but the probes areveryexpensive (300 bucks) and bandwidth is limited.You can analyze logic just fine with the analog inputs, so long as you don't need more than 4 channels.Pretty much all comms is serial these days anyway (SPI, I2C, etc.) so you don't need many lines.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 23, 2024, 05:57:43 pm
content: Quote from: ebastler on September 23, 2024, 05:28:22 pmeTobey statements are incorrect. NTP was actually enhanced in last FW. It will wait for network and retry.I know it was done. I asked for it.As you said, it has no realtime clock and nobody ever said it has.NTP works very well now. You can plug in network later after the boot and it will acquire time.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 23, 2024, 06:59:17 pm
content: I think the Rigol's easier to use with WiFi. Just a $7 USB dongle.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 23, 2024, 07:31:47 pm
content: You can use a $20 mini wifi bridge with either. 😉

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 23, 2024, 07:41:18 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on September 23, 2024, 06:59:17 pmMake that $14, since most people need to purchase two until they get the right version with the only chip that is supported by the scope.Seriously though -- having the ability to configure the WiFi dongle directly from the Rigol scope is nice. And having WiFi without any cables dangling around behind the scope his nice as well.Although as soon as you add a signal generator to your bench, you may want a small network switch to connect your instruments to anyway. Hint: Siglent scopes can talk to external Siglent signal generators to do automated Bode plots!

author: nidlaX
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 23, 2024, 07:44:08 pm
content: Didn't the SDS1000X-E have USB WiFi adapter support built-in? Seems like it should be trivial for them to add it back if it's not present anymore.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 23, 2024, 08:04:54 pm
content: Quote from: ebastler on September 23, 2024, 07:41:18 pmI just typed the chip number into Amazon and got it right first time.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 23, 2024, 08:07:30 pm
content: Quote from: nidlaX on September 23, 2024, 07:44:08 pmYup but as an optional feature but with latest firmware, now a standard feature.QuoteOne might think so however 800X HD uses a different OS/UI therefore it would require some rework to implement it in the latest models.But fear not, we have beenpushingnagginghardfor WiFi support in SDS800X HD for a while.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 23, 2024, 08:41:06 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on September 23, 2024, 08:04:54 pmI actually needed a second attempt myself before I got the right one for my DHO1000. In my defense that was early days, before it became clear that getting an RTL8188 was not sufficient but that the letter suffix also mattered...But I was mainly kidding; the information available today is clear enough. Nevertheless we just had a new user in the other DHO800 thread who not only wasted a few dollars, but more importantly a few hours trying with a wrong RTL8188 version.

author: awakephd
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 23, 2024, 09:17:25 pm
content: Quote from: NE666 on September 23, 2024, 09:28:30 amQuote from: ebastler on September 23, 2024, 07:41:18 pmAnd in fact, one can use even a very inexpensive signal generator with the Siglent scopes:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1104x-e-and-sds1204x-e-bode-plot-with-non-siglent-awg/

author: eTobey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 24, 2024, 06:51:37 am
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on September 23, 2024, 05:57:43 pmSo are you a beta tester then? Then it all makes sense to me. Your (and others) utterly stupid behaviour of denying issues that exist, that you have missed, and some that where even OBVIOUS. And then rather indicate, that i have altered a screenshot.Seems like that NTP fix needs a fix.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 24, 2024, 06:59:38 am
content: Quote from: eTobey on September 24, 2024, 06:51:37 amNo, I don't think it does. To my knowledge, the only problems observed with the most recent firmware could be fixed by changing to a different (reliable) NTP server. That includes moving away from the built-in NTP server of a Windows desktop computer, which to my knowledge is an unsupported Windows feature.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 24, 2024, 10:04:50 am
content: Quote from: eTobey on September 24, 2024, 06:51:37 amAll your problems are self made.Because of your warm, kind and understanding personality that compels you to insult people at every opportunity.This place is not Siglent support.This is public forum, where people discuss electronics related topics.Whatever you write here is simply some people discussing.You can write your diatribes 'till the end of days, but nothing written here is of any relevance to support of your product.Some people here are lucky to have equipment others don't have and a willing to test and help the others in their own free time.Some even have some insider knowledge that allows them to see "behind the horizon" and give better advice.Nor, me nor Performa01 nor Tatuech are employed by Siglent to be support.And certainly nobody here are you servants, indentured to fulfill you whims and rude orders you bark at people.Yes I reported that bug to Siglent support and asked for solution. As a public service. To help people here that asked for it.Which is something I didn't have to do.There are official manufacturer support channels and you can simply send them support request directly on your own.If I do something, it is something I did of my own will and my own free time.If I do it, that is also going to be on my rules. If I need additional data, or better explanation. My work, my time, my rules. My way or highway.I am not going to enable someone being lazy, rude, obnoxious and do work for them while at the same time I get insulted all the time.Have a nice day.

author: eTobey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 24, 2024, 12:32:34 pm
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on September 24, 2024, 10:04:50 amThen why did my problems make it onto the bug list? With some of my self made problems, i still made a greater contribution in count of issues, than all of you together (at times). You seriously have some issues of denying facts.Fanboys...

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 24, 2024, 12:49:45 pm
content: Quote from: eTobey on September 24, 2024, 12:32:34 pmYou're rude and delusional. You didn't discover anything that hadn't already been discovered.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 24, 2024, 12:57:45 pm
content: Quote from: eTobey on September 24, 2024, 12:32:34 pmIt is very ironic that all the time you have signatures under your posts that directly apply to how people feel after having any kind of contact with you:"Sometimes, after talking with a person, you want to pet a dog, wave at a monkey, and take off your hat to an elephant." (Maxim Gorki)Like I said all your problems are self made. I was not talking about bugs. But understanding the difference would mean reading without aggressive paranoid stance that everybody out there is out to get you. And general attitude that you are smarter and better than absolutely everybody else.My advice to you would be to sell SDS800xHD. It is not a good scope for you. It will never be what you "expect it to be" because scope you would like to have either does not exist or you cannot afford it. And with platform getting increasingly bug free with every FW update, you will be denied the pleasure to create drama and throwing tantrums demanding "damn thing needs to fixed right away, because king is not happpy!".Thinking about it, you should go back and buy DHO800 again. Just few days ago they discovered another bug that bricks the scope completely in newest FW that was published. Imagine "oh the glory!!" how fabulous would have been that it was YOU that discovered that!!Oh how many diatribes and rude expletives you could have had then!Compared to that, SDS800xHD is boring. It simply works, and minor thing here and there is not enough material for an episode of reality show. Really, not a scope for you.Hope you don't get this in a wrong way. Have a nice day.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 24, 2024, 02:20:14 pm
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on September 24, 2024, 12:49:45 pmThat is clearly incorrect. I don't get it why we cannot find a common denominator here?Yes, many of eTobey's findings were (and are) not described in sufficient detail; sometimes others had to help and pin down the boundary conditions for a bug. Yes, I also think there were too many, too early, too loud cries of "bug alert!!!". But yes, several annoying bugs were identified by eTobey, were pinned down, and the majority of them were fixed by Siglent in the meantime.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 24, 2024, 10:54:11 pm
content: Quote from: ebastler on September 24, 2024, 02:20:14 pmPerhaps you're right. You've paid a lot more attention to those threads. What I saw was generally unpleasant. 🤷

author: Jack359
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 25, 2024, 04:28:11 pm
content: Hello, I just wanted to update you that I found locally mildly used Rigol DHO804 for a bit more than half the price of what it would have cost me Siglent SDS804X HD, so I leaped and bought it. It has firmware 00.01.02 and from what I read perhaps is better to use it as it is and update it only if I have issues.I just noticed that in my dorm the power sockets are a bit weird (not Schuko) and if connect the scope it is not grounded.I watched the recommended here video about how not to blow up my oscilloscopeIn it is mentioned that not grounding the oscilloscope is actually workaround if I want to measure grounded circuits but it is not recommended. Didn't get why..I read that DHO804 is made to run of power bank as well, so I guess it is safe to use it not grounded ?

author: Antonio90
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 25, 2024, 04:38:11 pm
content: There might be a ground cable in the power sockets, not connected, left there by the installer. You could buy a grounded socket and get someone who knows what he's doing to install it for you.My lab's room had also non-grounded power sockets and I just swapped them all with the breaker off. Without proper grounding, the chassis, the ground in the probe compensation connector, the BNC connectors and the ground clip of your probes can become live and kill you.Some knowledgeable people float their 'scopes, but even experienced engineers have been killed by doing that. Call an electrician, run an extender cord from another room or whatever (not ideal), but ground your oscilloscope.

author: Jack359
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 25, 2024, 04:51:07 pm
content: Quote from: Antonio90 on September 25, 2024, 04:38:11 pmThanks. Some of the power sockets have ground hole and wire but they are a bit different than the plug and ground connection is not possible. I will try to find socket convertor or will just replace one of the sockets.

author: Antonio90
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 25, 2024, 04:58:34 pm
content: Quote from: Jack359 on September 25, 2024, 04:51:07 pmIf you can make a reliable ground connection, the DHO has a ground female plug in the back. That might get you by while you set everything up, but check the connection is solid and low impedance.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 25, 2024, 05:00:15 pm
content: Quote from: Jack359 on September 25, 2024, 04:28:11 pmCongratulations on a good money deal. Just make sure to not update to latest version of FW before Rigol publishes officially fixed one, not to brick a scope. Hope it will be OK for your use.

author: Antonio90
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 25, 2024, 05:28:23 pm
content: Quote from: Jack359 on September 25, 2024, 04:28:11 pmAs per why it is not recommended, as the video explains, if you probe a mains ground-referenced circuit, the probe ground has to be connected to the circuit ground. If you clip your probe on, say, 220V, it will be shorted to ground with very low impedance. That will blow either the circuit, the probe, the oscilloscope or all of them.On the other hand, if you do that with a floating oscilloscope, the grounding on the probe, the bnc inputs, chassis, etc, will all be at 220V potential with respect to ground, and you might very well be the path of least resistance to earth ground.Floating the scope allows you to make a differential measurement (only one, all the BNC grounds are at the same potential), as opposed to single-ended with respect to earth ground. I don't think it is worth it, but to each its own. If you find yourself needing that often, look for a differential probe, either used or Micsig.

author: Jack359
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 25, 2024, 05:40:58 pm
content: QuoteI'm wondering if the power adapter of the DHO804 has a fuse and can prevent short to the ground when used as floating scope ?

author: Antonio90
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 25, 2024, 05:44:45 pm
content: Quote from: Jack359 on September 25, 2024, 05:40:58 pmHello, no, ground connections are not fused. The fuse could silently fail, or break due to mechanical shock, manufacturing defect or whatever, and you would be left with floating device without knowing it.EDIT: also, when floating, the problem is not shorting to ground, but dangerous voltages on the probes, connectors and outer case. The danger in that case isn't so much for the scope as it is for you touching the oscilloscope or the probes.

author: Jack359
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 25, 2024, 07:28:13 pm
content: QuoteDoesn't it make any difference that the oscilloscope is powered by USB-C and AC/DC power adapter rated to max 20V/3A which is connected to the power socket? Is it still as potentially deadly when floating?I will not use it to measure my mains or circuits with 220V in them.

author: Antonio90
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 25, 2024, 07:48:30 pm
content: The dangerous voltages come from outside the oscilloscope, DSOs which connect directly to mains have a similar PSU on the inside.If you only work with low voltages and isolated circuits, maybe, but really, just ground your oscilloscope.You will have time later on to float it perfectly knowing that you should not do it in most cases.

author: Jack359
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 25, 2024, 08:06:29 pm
content: Quote from: Antonio90 on September 25, 2024, 07:48:30 pmLast question - if I buy suitable powerbank then as far as I understand operating this scope won't be much different than tablet scope like this onehttps://www.micsig.com/product5/?I know that it has less memory and miss some other not important things for me.As I read the micsig also uses common ground and doesn't have isolated channels.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 25, 2024, 08:50:38 pm
content: Quote from: Jack359 on September 25, 2024, 07:28:13 pmYou said in the OP:QuoteAt this point your knowledge is much lacking.The industry now severely frowns on floating scopes and Differential probes have especially been developed to remove the need to engage in this dangerous practise.Okay so you brought your first scope, but think of that like buying a car with a tow hitch, it will get you where you need to go but additional expenditure is required to make full use of it.The world of Differential and Current probes awaits you.

author: Antonio90
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 25, 2024, 09:01:49 pm
content: Micsig has a grounding plug too, which should be connected for general purpose bench use. It can be floated easily and can be battery operated. There are also quite a few handhelds which are naturally floating, but also designed to work like that.However, I can't really tell you it is fine to float your bench scope. It's a liability and an accident waiting to happen for a beginner. You'll probably have better judgement than me on this regard when you complete your degree, but right now, I really advise you to ground your new scope.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 26, 2024, 01:46:33 am
content: Quote from: Jack359 on September 25, 2024, 04:28:11 pmBecause there's exposed metal on the 'scope (eg. BNC connectors) that are directly connected to the probe. Connect your the probe to a live wire? Those BNC connectors are now live.The 'scope will be OK with that, the danger is toyouif you touch them.Grounding the 'scope avoids that. There's no way the BNC connectors can kill you if they're grounded. You can still kill yourself in other ways but the BNCs are safe to touch.Quote from: Antonio90 on September 25, 2024, 09:01:49 pmOr... just don't poke at mains electricity with it.There's no need.

author: Antonio90
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 26, 2024, 09:45:48 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on September 26, 2024, 01:46:33 amSure, there won't be dangerous voltages on the scope if you don't probe dangerous voltages. I'm just not so sure it is prudent to asume a newbie will never probe any dangerous voltage, even if that's not the intended initial use.I talk from experience. Even though the plan is to stick with op-amps, a few transistors, a motor from time to time and small radio stuff, you will inevitably find something for "parts or repair" for free or too good of a price to let it pass, and start trying to repair it. Often without an isolation transformer. Maybe not, and old Tek and HP stuff is not available, expensive, or plainly uninteresting for the OP.I stick with what I said, until he has his own criteria and doesn't need to ask.But yeah, a 5V arduino board with 12V relays and a few sensors is not deadly, grounded scope or not.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 26, 2024, 01:21:06 pm
content: Quote from: Antonio90 on September 26, 2024, 09:45:48 amIsolation transformers can be dangerous, too. They garantee your house circuit breakers will never trip.The thing newbies don't get is that grounding isn't done for the 'scope, it's done for the user.The 'scope doesn't care if it's grounded or not.

author: ptluis
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 26, 2024, 01:24:59 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on September 26, 2024, 01:21:06 pmSpecially when the internal insulation fails and the primary and secondary windings touch or there's a leak from primary into the chassis of the device

author: Jack359
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 26, 2024, 04:00:39 pm
content: Yes, it became clear to me. Thanks.If I ground the scope and poke high voltage stuff with it, I can destroy the scope.If I don't ground it, I can kill myself cause then the BNC connectors and perhaps the case become live. There are electrically insulating gloves but they are not comfortable or very cheap.The only safe way to do it is with differential probes and grounded scope.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 26, 2024, 04:13:30 pm
content: Quote from: Jack359 on September 26, 2024, 04:00:39 pmHopefully only melt the probe wire.