Fresh meat for the grind! - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: logictom
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 08, 2011, 01:06:48 am
content: I've recently graduated and I'm now on the lookout for a good job and I'm after any insight anyone can offer.There seems to be few jobs in the area I'm interested in working and the 'good' jobs all usually require 5+ years of experience, so while I know maybe I won't be doing the job I really want quite yet I need to get a job in the right area so gain this experience to then get into the better jobs. I think perhaps my main issue is looking in the wrong areas, many of the graduate job sites lump all engineering disciplines into one section which doesn't help and means when you filter it down you go from a list of >1000 to <10 electronic engineering jobs. I've been told that I should be sending off maybe 100 applications and be look at receiving 1 or 2 interviews, the problem is I can't find 100 jobs I want to apply for, both because I want the experience in the right area or a lot of jobs I haven't studied the necessary modules.The area I'm interested in is microcontrollers / FPGAs in a job where I can, ideally, go from design to PCB design and writing the firmware. Whilst I don't have vast experience in the whole chain of event's I made sure in my masters project I took the project from concept to PCB with firmware written and tested (with 101 errors and issues on the way, but how else do I learn).I'm also looking at working in other countries, mainly Canada, Aus and US (the only languages I know are English and C), I figure it's easier to up and move while I've no hard ties here in the UK.Does anyone have any experience working in other countries in terms of application process, visas, moving, I keep hearing a Canadian resume is different to a UK CV, are there things that should be included maybe you wouldn't include here, etc etc etc?I've found most jobs don't specify if they will take international applicants or if they do they usually require visas/permits to be in place before hand.I've read many (mainly Canadian) websites about visas/immigration/temporary work and it's slowly sinking in but I haven't managed to clarify what order I should I tackle things, do I need a visa before anyone will consider me as a serious candidate or do I need a employment offer to get the correct visa etc etc, if anyone has any experience in the area it would be a great help, I seem to be going round in circles here.I've read about the Washington Accord regarding qualifications, both my undergrad (MEng) and postgrad (MSc) courses are IET accredited so I'm hoping I shouldn't have a problem having my qualifications recognised but will be a case again of experience?I keep reading about the 'hidden job market', not so much on UK sites but others, I understand the need for networking and that sort of thing but as most of the people I know in engineering are either students or recent graduates there's not much in the terms of job opportunities there and the majority are UK and India so no Cad/Aus/US links there...I'm thinking perhaps I would be in a better position if I worked in the UK for a few years so I have some money and experience under my belt but then once I have a home, car, mortgage etc will I want to uproot that to start all over again?If anyone has an experience or advise on any of the areas or perhaps know of any jobs going, I'd be very appreciative.Hopefully this will be the first step into a long, enjoyable/hair-rippingly-stressful, career in electronics

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2011, 03:25:28 am
content: Quote from: logictom on October 08, 2011, 01:06:48 amThere's a bit of luck to this, unfortunately. The job you want is likely out there somewhere, but there is no guaranteed strategy for finding it.QuoteWhen reality sets in, you may need to be content applying for almost any kind of job to start with. The first sort of job you apply for is going to be a graduate trainee kind of position, and the first two or three years will be occupied learning all about the world of business, projects and practical stuff you didn't learn at university. This will be good experience regardless of the technical field, and it will provide an income and a roof over your head while you refine your strategy for locating the job youreallywant.QuoteMy suggestion about this specific area is to keep it in your plans, but unless you are really lucky you might not get there in step one. It can be a bit like a game of chess. Checkmate does not come in one move. Try to findajob and once you have it work on your strategy to findthejob. Your strategies are going to involve networking and finding contacts or connections to where you want to be. For example, join professional associations like the IET, and then join the local area groups and specialist subject groups of those organizations. Go to the meetings and start connecting with people. Join social networking sites and get on mailing lists. Obviously build a list of companies active in your area of interest and look out for any way to connect with people in those companies.QuoteAs above, this may be secondary to first finding a job, any (electronics) job. The easiest way to go overseas from your current starting point is as a student, for example to do a doctorate. Is that in your thoughts?Otherwise, moving abroad works best with company sponsorship, and for that you need some reason for them to want you instead of a local applicant. And that requires building up some experience first.QuoteI don't think you will have a problem with qualifications being recognized. But I don't think you will succeed in moving as a fresh graduate. In most cases you need company sponsorship or a job offer to get a visa, and any prospective employer therefore has to prefer you above any local candidate and jump through administrative hoops to get you. The deck is stacked against you.QuoteMany people (including myself) have done just that. It all depends how motivated you are. If you can even ask this question, perhaps you are not really serious about it?QuoteI can't help you with specifics as I work in an entirely different field (not even an EE), but good luck with your search!

author: gregariz
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2011, 04:16:14 am
content: Quote from: logictom on October 08, 2011, 01:06:48 amIf you want concept to manufacture, you perhaps should look at small technology companies. In Larger companies you are likely to be assigned just one task, ie 6 months writing failure reports or something like that.Quote from: logictom on October 08, 2011, 01:06:48 amIf you are interested in moving thats great, but the Canada and Australia have resource driven economies meaning that in general their will be less electronic engineering jobs than in UK (which will in turn have less than the US - perhaps). So if you are unsure I would look for a small tech company in the UK to get your design teeth wet.Quote from: logictom on October 08, 2011, 01:06:48 amIt's no problem, UK quals are well respected, so don't worry about it. Do not refer to your MEng as an undergrad qualification as that will raise eyebrows. That maybe what your university calls it but the rest of the world doesn't care. As far as I am concerned a Master's is a postgrad qualification. They may ask why you have two Master's - I hope they are in different things.Quote from: logictom on October 08, 2011, 01:06:48 amIf you are interested in actually designing stuff, some of the traditional industry networking / ass-sucking IMO is overated. The best networking I've ever done is to be around inventive people as invariably they will be the ones standing up new companies. Networking with engineering managers and directors of large established companies will be the way to go if you are just seeking a safe passage to retirement. What you choose will be up to you and your personality however.Unless you have worked for a number of large and small companies its kind of hard to give graduates advice as they will never believe/understand the level of insanity and political posturing that can occur in the workplace. Whether you are a good designer is often of little value in a company environment. Dilbert is a great read... and its all true. I've found as you have guessed above that the insanity CAN decrease in the smaller companies. I've never seen that in the larger ones. But in the end it will be about you and your personality as to how you click within a company culture. If you don't click I recommend you move on.

author: armandas
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2011, 07:56:43 am
content: I am also a recent graduate, got my degree this July. I was in a very similar situation when looking for jobs. It is indeed hard to find right positions to apply to.I was looking for digital-oriented (preferably FPGA/VHDL) jobs and quickly realised that graduate-oriented websites, such as gradcracker or target don't really have much to offer. The first reason for this was that those websites are mostly used by big companies, and all the "graduate development programmes" just sounded stupid. The second reason was that, as I saw it, the FPGA job market was pretty niche.The next thing I tried was various "professional" job boards, such as monster. These turned out to be flooded with headhunter ads. I'll admit it, I submitted a couple applications to them, but got no response and that was it. After that, I was trying clever google queries, like ”fpga engineer "no agencies"”or ”fpga consultancy” and so on. That gave me quite a few companies to try, but no real results in the end.After about 20 applications to fpga-related jobs, finding new companies started to get harder and I decided I should look for other titles, like "electronic  engineer". While looking for other sources of jobs, I went on to browse prospects.ac.uk. I found the list of university job boards and went to look for the ones that have unrestricted access.And that was where I got lucky. I found a small company that were looking for a design engineer, applied, got an interview and then an offer. At that time, I wasn't sure if I want to take the job, but the possible alternative of having to look for jobs until the next summer didn't really appeal to me, so I said "yes".Like gregariz said, because it is a small company (100 employees, 2 EEs including me) I get to do a full range of jobs. I started with the redesign of their current product, and currently waiting for the prototypes to get manufactured and assembled. While I'm waiting, they gave paperwork to do (BOMs, assembly and test procedures) for other products. It's a bit boring, but It'll get better once I start programming and fixing bugs)Moral? None really, just sharing my experience of first job hunt.Good luck!

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 08, 2011, 08:49:34 am
content: Quote from: logictom on October 08, 2011, 01:06:48 amI think you'll find that most employers will assume that you already have the right to work in the country. i.e. you already have a VISA.They will usually only specifically mention international applicants for more specific jobs where they don't expect (or haven't been able to) some find many applicants locally. In which case they will usually sponsor your working VISA if you don't have one.AFAIK, in Australia sponsoring a VISA doesn't cost the company anything (just time to fill out the paperwork), so if they like you then they will sponsor you. Not all employers know this though, so it might be worth pointing out to them.Sometimes is pays to target companies that have offices in your own country, that way you can potentially go for an interview at the local office and get a foot in the door. if you pass that, they may pay for your trip out for a 2nd interview.QuoteVery likely not!QuoteI'm actually working on an EEVblog jobs board (guess the URL...)Don't know if it will take off, but worth a try in setting it up.Dave.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2011, 12:01:28 pm
content: Quote from: logictom on October 08, 2011, 01:06:48 amcongratulations for your graduation! a good job? the only a "good" job i've found is staying at home.Quote from: armandas on October 08, 2011, 07:56:43 amwrong keyword imho. why dont you type "microcontroller company?" maybe you ended up in designing that mcu or fpga or the asics stuff, start from scratching silicone, or where "physics electronics" will become your field, unless thats what you really want and find interesting. why dont you try something like "dso manufacturer" or "UAV" or "VSC system" company or other manufaturer that produce products that have fpga in it. maybe more the right company you want to be in. in the interview, tell them you are expert in fpga programming. if they coincidentally have vacancy for that, maybe they will listen to you.consultancy? a newbie? well, telling from my experience, working directly in consultancy out of U with no working or field experience is a bad move. really bad.and last advice, if you just got into a work and find it boring, then dont worry, thats normal! it happened to everybody.

author: armandas
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2011, 12:28:57 pm
content: Quote from: Mechatrommer on October 08, 2011, 12:01:28 pmThat will only give results for large multinationals that manufacture microcontrollers. My first rule was to avoid big companies. I did however check out Xilinx, Altera and Agilent, but even if they had suitable positions in the UK, it would probably be quite hard to get in.Quote from: Mechatrommer on October 08, 2011, 12:01:28 pmI did not intend to start a consulting business, but rather find companies that offer consultancy and see if they were looking for engineers. Don't see anything bad here.

author: logictom
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 09, 2011, 03:33:14 pm
content: Thanks for the feedback!Quote from: IanB on October 08, 2011, 03:25:28 amI figured as much was true but for the time being I will remain optimistic.Quote from: IanB on October 08, 2011, 03:25:28 amI've been a student member of IET from first year of undergrad. Whilst the magazines are a good read, there's little in the way of interesting talks. There have never been a great number of events where I've lived and fewer interest me, I don't have the 'get up and go' spirit to drive at least an hour for a talk that I have little interest in. Don't get me wrong there have been a few great ones, most recent about the new Tyne Tunnel, but most - bah.Quote from: IanB on October 08, 2011, 03:25:28 amThis is an area I need to work on, I've recently created a LinkedIn profile and have found a few interesting companies and job vacancies but I need to be more active in this area.Quote from: IanB on October 08, 2011, 03:25:28 amI'm just being realistic here and perhaps I will or won't want to move in a number of years but that's why I want to try now, the fewer ties the easier the move will be.Quote from: gregariz on October 08, 2011, 04:16:14 amA number of the students on my course were from India and the majority had come to gain a qualification that was more "reputable" than their home qualifications - it's good to hear that it shouldn't be a problem.The courses were Electronic Engineering (MEng) and Embedded Systems Engineering (MSc), I did the MSc because I wanted to learn material that I hadn't covered in the MEng - a lot of what was being asked for the jobs I want to apply for.Quote from: gregariz on October 08, 2011, 04:16:14 amI was dreading as much, I worked for GE for 3 months as part of my industrial placement in 3rd year. So much messing around and so little work, it took around 6 weeks before I had access to PC because of security checks and what not, fair enough if I was working there permanently but 3 months, and they knew I was coming before hand, it took them a couple of weeks before they even got the ball rolling. They had laid off most of the engineers/not extended contracts and were piling on the work of the few who remained - didn't seem like a happy environment. That's what I'm hoping to avoid.Quote from: armandas on October 08, 2011, 07:56:43 amCouldn't agree more, grad programs are down at the bottom of the list of possible applications.Quote from: armandas on October 08, 2011, 07:56:43 amI had a search on the site but didn't come across anything, could you point me the right direction? The Leeds Uni site has exactly zero electronic engineering jobs listed.It sounds like you landed a good job, hope it's working out wellQuote from: EEVblog on October 08, 2011, 08:49:34 amAfter some more research I came across "Skilled – Recognised Graduate (Temporary) Visa (Subclass 476)" on the Aus government site, as a graduate of a recognised institution which would allow me 18 months to do pretty much what I like, while not a permanent solution it will perhaps open the door to more employers.Quote from: EEVblog on October 08, 2011, 08:49:34 amKeep us posted, I for one will be having a look. Perhaps you could have a section which details the different requirements in different countries (I'm assuming the site will be worldwide, if Aus only please ignore) for engineers such as in Canada (if I've read all the info correctly) the need be licensed and become a P.Eng or have a P.Eng sign off on your work. Whereas here in the UK and Tom, Dick or Harry can call themselves an engineer, etc etc. What is the case in Aus?Thanks again for the feedback guy, appreciate it.

author: armandas
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2011, 04:26:00 pm
content: Quote from: logictom on October 09, 2011, 03:33:14 pmYeah, few universities offer unrestricted access to their job boards. TheUCLis one of them, they use "jobonline".Southamptonhave a list of companies that you could check out. That's all I can remember at this time.I also searched linked in, which I forgot to mention.Cambridge Networkused to have a nice list of jobs, but the new "Recruitment Gateway" looks wanky.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 09, 2011, 10:16:51 pm
content: Quote from: logictom on October 09, 2011, 03:33:14 pmSounds good. But I suspect you'll ultimately have to have your legs on the ground here to have the best chance of making it work.Have you got the money to do that? Perhaps even work part time in a non-engineering related job to pay your way until you find industry work?I know people that do that, they integrate the whole thing with the "backpacker" experience, and bum around seeing the world until they find a professional job they like and then settle there for a few years.QuoteHere in Australia in the electronics industry, we generally gloss over engineering qualifications, it's just not really important, it's what you can do that counts.The millage does vary depending upon the company and the niche industry though.When you start talking P.Eng certification by the Institute of Engineers, that usually only of relevance in the electrical and/or big industrial industries. e.g. I doubt you could wire up and certify a substation without one.But for designing electronics, I have never seen it applied in the electronics design industry. Some jobs, at most, say you should be "eligible for membership to the Institutue of engineers", but that's it. They don't care if you actually are or not, and they don't make you join.Most electronics guys I know in the industry are not members of the institute of engineers, and the one's I know that are members, are only so because they can be, not because they need to be.My jobs board was just going to be a standard install of JobberBase:http://eevblog.com/jobs/So it won't do anything that JobberBase doesn't do.Dave.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 09, 2011, 11:03:53 pm
content: Quote from: logictom on October 09, 2011, 03:33:14 pmWe are rather generous aren't we!This likely comes from the big government push to get skilled migrants into the country.QuoteSounds like you'll nail that oneSo that means you effectively have a free pass to come to Australia permanently.And we don't fingerprint you here when you come inDo it while you are young!If there is one thing I would regret I didn't do, it's travel more when I was younger and not tied down.Dave.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2011, 11:59:29 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on October 09, 2011, 11:03:53 pm...a country which appears to be just about the worst nanny state in the world! The trouble with most countries is not the people or the natural riches, but the governments.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 10, 2011, 12:26:29 am
content: Quote from: IanB on October 09, 2011, 11:59:29 pmReally? how so exactly?And you guys don't with all your paranoia about terrorism, and all the subsequent restrictions of liberties? And let's not even mention the financial bailout, threats to kill Julian Assange et.alGive me a few nanny issues any day over all that rubbish!But yes, it would be nice to have a bill of rights, so the government can subsequently step all over itSorry, but when it comes down to it, we are ultimately winning.On the list of the worlds most livable cities, we have 4 cities in the top 10 list, including being #1 of course.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World's_most_livable_citiesOur Canadian and NZ mates are in there, but no sign of the good'ol' US of ANearest sign of you guys is at #26 with Honolulu, but hey, that ain't the US reallyAnd we beat you every which way on the HDI too:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Development_IndexQuoteNo argument there!Dave.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2011, 12:46:53 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on October 10, 2011, 12:26:29 amWell I'm not sure the UK (my home nation) is a whole lot better these days, but I have heard a lot of stuff about Australia that raises eyebrows.Like needing a certified electrician to do or certify home wiring modifications.Like being one of the first nations to adopt that crazy lunacy of banning light bulbs (soon followed by many others, of course).Like having low speed limits on roads enforced with an unholy zeal.Like having a customs service that opens incoming mail and confiscates forbidden books.Right now I'm living in the USA of course, which has a different mix of crazy stuff. The hardest thing to get used to is the police state mentality that you have to present photo ID to doanything. To make a purchase with a credit card. To enter a municipal leisure center. To ride a train. To enter a federal building. To ride a bus even. Don't these people know they are supposed to be living in a free country?

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 10, 2011, 12:58:44 am
content: Quote from: IanB on October 10, 2011, 12:46:53 amYes, that sucks for us otherwise technically qualified to do it, but hardly big on the nanny state index. Most people don't want to do it themselves, or if they do, they just do it anyway and no one cares. It makes sense though, 240V mains can kill you, and the next person who buys your house.Are there no such laws in most developed countries?QuoteYes, again stupid, but nothing to do with nanny state issues. Just yet another stupid government decision to win some brownie points somewhere, without understanding the underlying issues.QuoteYes, more government protection "creepage".Recent news is that some limits may actually be reversed here in NSW, and the speeds actually increased.QuoteYes, we have very strict customs here, but they hardly open everything. I have never had a single packed opened by customs that I can recall in maybe 20 years of importing stuff.On the books side of thing, that is only partially true. AFAIK things (books, DVD's, video games etc) on the "Refused Classifications" list cannot be imported and sold commercially legally. However, you are still free to buy the book from overseas and import it personally and resell it 2nd hand etc. There are no laws that can stop you reading or owning any book or DVD etc. The one exception is probably child pornography.QuoteReally, photo ID to now ride a bus or train? I didn't know it had gotten that bad.No, they think free only means freedom to own a gun, and capitalism. That maybe one day anyone can be rich and powerful too, or even president, if you have enough money.Sadly, the people have swallowed it hook line and sinker. But at least they are now starting to wake up and fight back for things, I love the whole Occupy Wall Street movement.Dave.

author: gregariz
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2011, 01:21:56 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on October 09, 2011, 10:16:51 pmThe IEAust has always been completely irrelevant to electronics engineers in Australia. It is (or at least was) a necessity however for Department of Defence Professional officer level jobs - technical officer level jobs OTOH nobody cared. But then Aussie DOD really never did any electronics engineering anyway...

author: logictom
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 12, 2011, 06:54:08 pm
content: Quote from: armandas on October 09, 2011, 04:26:00 pmThanks - I'll check those out.Quote from: EEVblog on October 09, 2011, 10:16:51 pmYeah I figured that would be the best bet - will allow me to attend interviews and actually get some face time with potential employers - hate phone interviews, no face to face so you can tell how it's going and how can I show off projects over the phone.Quote from: EEVblog on October 09, 2011, 11:03:53 pmYeah I recently drove across to the US from Canada whilst on holiday, $6 for the pleasure of having my photograph taken and being fingerprinted - didn't even get a souvenir copy for the photo album

author: ThePranksta
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2011, 09:39:02 am
content: On the speed limit issue I can one up you all: Over here they are currently considering limiting the max speed on national roads/highways to 100km/h (60mph) - apparently to reduce the nation's fuel consumption. Even crazier if you take into account that 95% of a goods are transported by road due to the failing rail infrastructure and that congestion in metropolitan areas have gotten so bad (mainly due the lack of proper public transport) that it typically can take 1h30min to 2h to travel 30km during peak times.On the job issue really consider a small company, my first job was at a big corp (well in South African terms, 1000ppl, ~40 EE and ~50 other developers/technicians). After 2.5 years and 8 retrenchment processes I took the jump now working for "garage company", 3 people and the job came with a 30% pay increase. Never been happier, get a lot of work done, no long meetings, no office politics, constantly working with new projects and tech and ironically a more stable working environment.One con on going to another country (from what I heard from friends and ex-colleagues that went to Australia) is that for the first few years you are treated as an outsider or "one of those immigrants" it typically meant taking a pay cut and having to proof yourself.