Energiestro -- This one's got wheels... literally! - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: CanadianAvenger
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2014, 01:20:52 am
content: http://kck.st/1lALo5DInteresting take on the solar storage problem/solution. The concept is not bad, and is used an many applications already, just not sure what the return will be in this case.

author: MacAttak
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 19, 2014, 03:28:14 am
content: I just don't really see this coming close to meeting their funding goal - regardless of the tech. The pledge structure just isn't crowdfunding-friendly I don't think.Haven't looked at it too closely, but claims like this scream bullshit to me:"They can also augment geothermal heat pumps to reach200% efficiency!"Also, they are being misleading at best when calling it a "power plant" and describing it as"a safe, clean system ofrenewable energy productionand storage".My understanding of flywheel energy storage is that it does indeed work, but is quite expensive to build a storage unit due to the engineering required and the construction quality requirements. Also, they can be quite dangerous (NASA encases theirs in massive protective shrouds in case of a failure which would almost certainly rip the thing apart).

author: PointyOintment
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2014, 04:13:47 am
content: I think this passageQuotemight indicate that they intend it to be used in conjunction with a conventional ICE generator, but I'm really not sure what they mean there, or how they envision it being used with geothermal.There's also this:Quotewithout any mention of bearings, maglev or otherwise, anywhere on the page.For reference, the greatest maintenance-free service life estimate I've ever seen is 1,300 years (for a device of similar complexity), which is quite a long time for something to work, but is far from the claim for these flywheels.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2014, 10:03:51 am
content: QuoteIs that pukka? It is seriously impressive!

author: thinlayer
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2014, 10:31:49 am
content: Perhaps that's not too crazy. Storing solar energy solves the base load problem and batteries suck. There's a company in Sydney trying to use very large battery banks for exactly this. They are going to be popular when there is a deregulated energy market: your battery bank would buy power @1am for 12c per kWh, then discharges back into the grid at peak load say 7:30pm for 25c per kwH. Or it'd charge from your domestic solar when you are producing more than you use and that's a top idea because my local utility only pays 7c per kWh.Batteries are soooo crap. Lossy and degrade badly with lifetime. And safety a big issue for Lithium even if not lossy. Flywheel? Bearing is only loss if a vacuum is present.It's seriously dangerous though. To get a couple of kW into a flywheel it has to be quite heavy, spin fast and I sure don't want that near my kids. Bearings fail with a statistical MTBF to tell you how many walls are going to be busted down by enormous kinetic energy weaponised flywheels. Like a car through a brick veneer living room. Old style metal presses used big flywheels and would take a while to spin up. Stress fractures in the frames would eventually fail and catastrophic failures would release the flywheel into the factory. Good bye wall. They don't use them anymore.

author: Legit-Design
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2014, 10:35:52 am
content: Wasn't something similar used already. Huge solar farm with mirrors and liquid salts running inside pipes. They could generate power even if the sun went down since the salt still had some energy trapped in it?http://gigaom.com/2013/10/09/a-huge-solar-farm-with-molten-salt-storage-is-ready-to-go-live-in-arizona/

author: rob77
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2014, 10:57:20 am
content: Quote from: PointyOintment on June 19, 2014, 04:13:47 ammy 2 centsICEs got a terrible efficiency at other than nominal load - you can greatly improve end-to-end efficiency of a standard ICE electric generator just by adding the flywheel - the engine starts up in some interwals and store it's energy into the flywheel (at nomimal ICEs output power - with good efficiency) and then the generator takes the energy from the flywheel.imagine a 10kW internal combustion engine with efficiency 40% @ 10kW , but that engine will have a terrible fuel efficiency at 0.2kW load... so you speed up the flywheel with the 10kW, shut down the engine and the flywheel provides the 0.2kW to the generator.. once the flywheel need another kick, the ICE will be started up again for a short period.. you will end up with a much much better end-to-end efficiency this way. of course if you need 5kW of electricity the ICE will be running almost continuously.i can imagine this setup to be ideal for installations with small continuous power demand with occasional high power demand.

author: thinlayer
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2014, 11:13:48 am
content: Flywheel storage could actually be a good idea for managing grid peak/base load fluctuations... and to deal with the safety you have all the flywheels pointed toward a river? Or lake? Then you could really begin to trade energy as the price fluctuated with demand. I'd like to know how many flywheels you'd need to make a real difference; it's going to be a lot obviously.I'm not saying Energiestro looks good; far from it. But the concept might have merit vs batteries.

author: sleemanj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2014, 12:11:51 pm
content: Quote from: rob77 on June 19, 2014, 10:57:20 amBasically, you've described a hit and miss engine :-)

author: rob77
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2014, 01:46:36 pm
content: Quote from: sleemanj on June 19, 2014, 12:11:51 pmyes, that's it !but instead of the 10% efficiency of the hot bulb, you drive the flywheel with modern diesel with 40%+ thermal efficiency (btw. the flywheel in the setup is rotating much faster and storing much more energy than the hit and miss engine's flywheel)

author: Nerull
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2014, 02:32:48 am
content: Quote from: thinlayer on June 19, 2014, 11:13:48 amWhen a flywheel fractures, pieces are thrown out in a 360 degree arc with enough energy to kill or seriously damage structures. You can't 'point' it at something harmless, unless you stick them in a cave/large bunker. It needs to be completely surrounded.Lab centrifuges are essentially flywheels, carrying quite a lot of energy. If a student so much as forgets to make sure his sample vials are exactly the same weight, the centrifuge could essentially explode. They're shielded with thick steel plating to protect against this, but there are several reports of rotor parts going through the steel plating, then continuing through any nearby walls.

author: rob77
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2014, 06:26:12 am
content: Quote from: Nerull on June 21, 2014, 02:32:48 amno-one saying the flywheels are safe ;-) that's why you have to have them perfectly balanced and sitting in a high quality bearings.our world is full of "dangerous" flywheels and yet, we're still alive