Guide to doing an Electronics degree in UK - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: ocset
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2018, 11:12:05 pm
content: Hi,What do you make of this guide to doing an electronics degree in UK?..https://massey276.wixsite.com/electronicsdegree

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2018, 11:03:00 am
content: I don't think it mentions SMPSs enough!

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2018, 11:13:59 am
content: QuoteThis is basically wrong. It's wide open (look for "Microelectronic Systems Engineering" which is what I did). You don't need to know the right people, just pick the right course. The software is basically free to universities so ignore that. You don't need to be brilliant - it's no harder than any other EE field. In fact I'd say it's easy once you've got above the gate-level abstraction. You can't work in any engineering discipline unless you can handle the relevant software simulators etc (it's 2018 people!)I found it terribly boring though. This was 2 years of my life:http://www.ece.virginia.edu/~mrs8n/cadence/tutorial5.htmlQuoteSounds like the author should have done a BA instead?

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2018, 11:19:53 am
content: Quote from: treez on December 30, 2018, 11:12:05 pmIt is a load of rubbish.One person has had some (lack of) experience, and generalises it to everybody everywhere. And that's the charitable interpretation.Chips on shoulders and conspiracy theories both generate poor quality material.

author: ocset
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2018, 11:40:40 am
content: QuoteThanks, but i wonder how much it costs for someone wanting a copy of the software to use at home?(ie the integrated cct design software)Also, ditto the software needed to design VHDL programs...how much does that cost for a person wanting a personal copy for home?Whilst doing an electronics degree, the thing I remember was that we never had any actual working electronics engineers coming in to the university to talk to us about what they actually did in their job. We had sales engineers, managers and apps guys coming to talk to us, but never any actual working electronics engineers.And the point is, that it is quite difficult to imagine what a VHDL software person actually does, and what an integrated circuit designer actually does…so very few people wanted to take those kind of modules.We did modules on Karnaugh maps....digital logic.....they seemed to be telling us that VHDL was the modernisation of all that, but it wasnt obvious.....i mean, logic gates and circuits full of them are obvious..but VHDL wasnt.I mean C programming for microcontrollers was an obvious thing….you could see what it was all about…but VHDL…….what was that all about?....i presumed it was about software that needed to run very very quickly, but I wasn’t totally sure that that was the salient point about VHDL. It wasn’t obvious at all.We had general modules in “semiconductor physics”, but it left you wondering what a job in that field would actually entail.Whereas jobs making say power supplies or audio amplifiers, or electric drives, well…..in those jobs, it was much more obvious what you would be doing.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2018, 11:49:05 am
content: Back in 2000-ish which was the last time I had to fill a PO for Cadence Virtuoso, it was about £100k per seat per year. There is no personal license. If you want to use it, you have to hit the university computer labs usually. On top of that if you want to spin a prototype, that's about £25k for a single run if you have an in house small scale fab (we did being defence sector). £60k+ outside fab if you have a decent contract.This is why FPGAs are so popular. You can short circuit most of that cost and turnaround at the cost of speed, size and power consumption. Look at Intel / Altera / Xilinx for VHDL stuff. Cypress have ventured into this recently with their SoCs as well although those are more "configurable hardware" strapped to an MCU.When I started ASICs were on the way out. FPGAs were cost effective and reliable enough for defence applications. Paired with an embedded PPC core, VXworks and an ADA compiler, that became the standard pretty quickly.

author: ocset
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2018, 12:06:07 pm
content: Thanks, this certainly seems to confirm that VHDL software and integrated cct software, isnt cheap enough for someone to buy for home use, so that they can assess and evaluate themselves learning it up for a job or career.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2018, 12:22:50 pm
content: Quote from: treez on December 31, 2018, 11:40:40 amA remarkably short-sighted question.Can you design ICs at home? If not there's no point in learning the software at home.QuoteFree, as in beer. There are some open source tools as well, but they are limited.The FPGA manufacturers give their design tools away free, typically only for low end devices. But that's all you would be using at home. If you are using large FPGAs, you can afford their software.BTW, if you think about VHDL as a programming tool for ICs, you will not produce good hardware. Unless, of course, you write MCU software in such a way that all statements execute simultaneously.Go and downloadhttps://www.xilinx.com/support/download.html(or another), and try it. But be prepared for a significant learning curve, as might be imagined by an 18GB download.QuoteShrug. Use initiative. Go and find them. Join a professional organisation such as the IET and go to their talks.Don't expect to be spoonfed.QuoteWell, if you can't imagine that, then you lack the imagination to be an engineer in the first place.QuoteWho did you ask? What research did you do? If you aren't sufficiently curious to find someone and ask etc, then you aren't sufficiently curious to be an engineer.QuoteIt seems that you had little imagination, ilttle initiative, and expected to be spoonfed with what you needed to know. Given the half-life of technology, learning how to learn is an essential skill.I realised that at school, partly helped by reading an Isaac Asimov story, "Profession". 61 years later it is still relevant...https://www.abelard.org/asimov.phpIt also illustrates a key difference between an engineer and a technician.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2018, 12:24:34 pm
content: Quote from: treez on December 31, 2018, 12:06:07 pm.Choose your target hardware, then the manufacturer's VHDL/Verilog/C toolsets arefreefor low-end FPGAs.As for "integrated circuit software", don't forget to include the cost of a maskset (several years salary) and to allow several months between submitting the netlist and having the ic in your hand.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2018, 12:29:44 pm
content: Free for very low end. I think high end stuff was about £15k/seat/year back in the early 00's for Xilinx.Also to note, a huge chunk of the industry is "design verification". It's pretty easy to forward-engineer something with the tools but to actually verify it does what it says on the tin is a lot more complicated. Particularly when the target is mixed mode i.e software and hardware cooperating together. You end up with verified compilers targeting verified FPGAs against verified test cases and what pops out at the end is a whole pile of empty wallets and not necessarily a project that works properly (F35 for example) even if the design verification steps pass. As tggzzz suggests, this is mainly because there are a lot of technicians on the projectsEdit: At university I got silicon fabbed. It was around £100k to turn around and 2 months. Process wasn't particularly advanced if I remember. Definitely in the tens to hundreds of uM territory and was CMOS. TSMC and Intel paid for this at the time out of their own pockets hoping they'd get some staff out of the course. We all went and did software in the end AFAIK

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2018, 12:42:11 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on December 31, 2018, 12:29:44 pmMore than the very low end, andcertainlysufficient for a hobbyist to develop and demonstrate their skills.When I last looked, 4 years ago, Xylinx Vivado was free for the Zync 7020: dual A9 ARMs (inc 256k RAM), 85k logic cells, 4MB block RAM, 220 DSP slices. You can do a hell of a lot with that, including running Linux on one core and an RTOS on the other.QuoteIt starts with "specification elicitation", then "specificationvalidation", then many more steps before you reach "design verification". Then rinse and repeat as the spec is modified

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2018, 12:52:45 pm
content: I don't think I've ever seen someone reach the end of that rabbit hole, just throw more cash down it. I'm currently persuading a fintech not to bother with it because it's not going to improve the fact that they don't actually know what the feck they are doing to start with so how can you validate it?

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2018, 01:01:59 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on December 31, 2018, 12:52:45 pmFintechs embedbusiness trading rulesin FPGAs. The rules may or may not be correct (whatever that means), but they arefast.I thought the HFT mob validated them by running (?ruining?) the economy with them. Either way, "mob" isn't incorrect.

author: chris_leyson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2018, 01:06:32 pm
content: HDL design tools are free from Altera, Lattice and Xilinx.QuoteWell, they don't write software for a start, VHDL is a hardware description language that looks like software but it isn't, it's a set on logical instructions that describe how a piece of logic should behave.The "instructions" are not executed on a CPLD or FPGA but tell the synthesis tool what the logic should do and then the synthesis tool generates the bit patterns for the physical interconnects on the chip. Thinking of VHDL like software is a mistake a lot of beginners make but once you start to realise what sort of logic the "instructions" generate then it makes a lot more sense. Same goes for Verilog.

author: hexreader
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2018, 01:16:13 pm
content: Buy these two products:https://hobbycomponents.com/search?orderby=position&controller=search&orderway=desc&search_query=fpgaThey are old, but stupidly cheap and toolchain is freeJust add jumper wires, LEDs and switches, and you have all you need to do practical VHDL excercises.Seller forum gives excellent step-by-step guide to getting started with your first simple project, and clear documentation on the board.... and why not buy one of these at the same time:https://hobbycomponents.com/featured/274-lc-maxii-altera-epm240-cpld-development-boardFar less educational value, but fun and even more stupidly cheap - same programmer works for both boards

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2018, 01:19:43 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on December 31, 2018, 01:01:59 pmCorrect is merely either (a) we got away with it and (b) FCA didn't tear us a new arsehole.Quote from: chris_leyson on December 31, 2018, 01:06:32 pmI (slightly) disagree there. VHDL is a domain specific language for logic. It can be compiled into something else be that silicon or C quite easily. All is not quite straightforward behind the scenes. My favourite text on the subject is SICP. The interesting bit is here:https://mitpress.mit.edu/sites/default/files/sicp/full-text/book/book-Z-H-22.html#%_sec_3.3.4Edit: paid my entire mortgage off thanks to reading that book.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2018, 01:54:22 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on December 31, 2018, 01:19:43 pmVerilog/VHDL/HiLo/etc can be used for more thanjusthardware, although that is clearly their forte. In particular the behavioural (i.e. non-synthesisable) parts can be used for "higher level" descriptions which are then refined into hardware. Of course just because something can be done doesn't mean it should be done. As ever, good taste is beneficial.As for SICP, I used that bit to learn about OOPs in 1986. I implemented something similar on the only affordable OOP then was Apple's Smalltalk running glacially on a 1MB Fat Mac. That was sufficient to show me that OOP was the future.Also when I re-implemented it in Objective-C (easy) and C++ (revolting), it enabled me to run away from C++ screaming, a decision I've never regrettedAnd finally it (plus Gosling's exemplary white paper) made the transition to Java in 1996 very obvious and easy.So that book wasindirectlyresponsible for a good bit of my career.

author: hans
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2018, 03:36:47 pm
content: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/do-you-agree-this-is-how-to-approach-an-electronics-degree-in-uk/25/

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2018, 05:19:20 pm
content: Quote from: hans on December 31, 2018, 03:36:47 pmOh, I'd forgotten that. I wonder how many times treez will resurrect this topic; will he stop when he gets the "right" response?Looks like Gyro's comment about SMPSs was on the mark.

author: MrMobodies
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2018, 05:40:48 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on December 31, 2018, 11:19:53 amWhat I like about this board I am learning something new nearly everyday without the bs. It is a learning experience for me. I watch the videos, observe the comments, search if I am interested in something or need to to find out things so it is a great learning resource.When misinformation or stuff gets posted like that, part or half truths or even marketing bs, this place turns it around and especially those who are put off and told the same crap that they have to be naturally born to able to do something without training or you know need to know certain people to be able do it etc, you get some genuine help here that it is basically rubbish and point you in some good directions so you know where to start.

author: ocset
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 01, 2019, 12:29:01 pm
content: OK thanks, so I would update the article to say that anybody wanting to do VHDL/FPGA should first see how they fayre in their digital logic modules (AND, OR NOT etc etc) ….And see how they fayre in Karnaugh maps and making out Finite State Machines. Then if they are aux fait with that, then they could consider VHDL/FPGA as a pathway. But I would suggest that first of all they try one of the cheap VHDL hobby kits as kindly recommended by Hexreader above. If they get on well with that, then they could consider VHDL/FPGA as a specialism.The thing I wonder is whether VHDL is like being an embedded software engineer. Its dead easy to write simple microcontroller programs in C and then think you are an expert….however, as we all know, becoming an embedded software designer and writing huge industrial programs is very different…much more difficult. I think many on this forum would find it easy…..but many Degree students in UK would fall over. This is shown by the big shortage of software engineers in UK.In truth, I think to be an embedded C software engineer in industry, I would say it would help if the student could demonstrate significant skill in software before they go to college….and while they are in college they would be very actively studying software and putting in large numbers of hours into it, well above what the course requires of them for a “pass”.….otherwise they could end up not getting a job in that speciality after the course.I would have to say that in software particularly (including VHDL), it really helps if you have close friends or family who already work in that area or have significant knowledge in it. The same applies to general hardware, but I don’t think as much as in software or VHDL.I also believe that generally speaking, learning how to design general, low power DCDC LED drivers and SMPS is much easier than learning how to be a VHDL designer.

author: kony
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 01, 2019, 01:00:32 pm
content: How about you go find actual job that is not way over your head treez, and learn from people there in small incremental steps? Because that is how vast majority of people learn, regardless of the academia creditals.

author: ocset
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 01, 2019, 02:45:22 pm
content: Well , we are trying to increase the uptake of electronics as a college subject throughout the Western World.It is believed that many youngsters lack the introductory info needed to encourage them into a career/college course in electronics.I definitely believe that a young child given advice and familiarity in electronics from say a family member whilst growing up would have a much better chance of developing themselves into electronics than a child who lacked this. The document seeks to be this “family member” for young western children.The document likely does have inaccuracies, (eg the VHDL description), but generally, i think a child reading that would be a lot more prepared than a child who had nothing to read.Remember, a child with no links to anybody in electronics is going to see electronics as a foreign land.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 01, 2019, 03:23:53 pm
content: Quote from: treez on January 01, 2019, 02:45:22 pmAre we? Why are we doing that? Electronics jobs in the UK have completely collapsed, but they aren't exactly growing fast in the rest of the western world either. Most new jobs are in India and China, and they are doing reasonably well at expanding the number of people studying electronics for the local job market.There used to be good opportunities in Asia for western engineers. I know. I was one of the western engineers working in Asia, That's not really true any more, as they can now source most of the skills they need locally. If you are an expert in an interesting niche things may be different, but only a few jobs are like that.Quote from: treez on January 01, 2019, 02:45:22 pmIn the UK they probably lack that information as there are so few electronics companies left to provide it. Don't you consider it immoral to encourage people to study for non-existent jobs? Studying electronics is fine, if you are doing it as a springboard to jobs which value things like control theory (e.g. finance), but the degree has limited value for getting a job in electronics, especially if you want to stay in the UK.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 01, 2019, 04:48:40 pm
content: Quote from: treez on January 01, 2019, 12:29:01 pm"fayre"?K-maps aren't used at the HDL level, FSMs are very useful in embedded software and high level software applications.The differences between digital hardware and embedded software are both less and more profound than you appear to understand.Start by considering that the first task in a hardware/software system is usually to define which functions should be in hardware, which in software, and which could be in either.QuoteThat is true ofabsolutely every engineering topic, and many topics beyond that. Start by considering writing a novel...I really wonder about your background and education.QuoteAbsolute rubbish.The nearest that gets to having any validity is that doing hardware/software/writing/knitting in the student's own time demonstrates to an interviewer that they like doing that.QuoteAbsolute rubbish.For the reason why, read the Asimov story I referred to above.One of the few engineers I really respect (i.e. I listen carefully when we have a disagreement, since I will probably learn something) did a biochemistry degree and a one year's master in electronics. And was then designing novel high performance electronics on the boundary of what was possible.QuoteDoyou do that? Kony's comment is appropriate.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 01, 2019, 04:50:05 pm
content: Quote from: treez on December 31, 2018, 12:06:07 pmI don't know where you are getting this idea. Xilinx Vivado (and even the older ISE) are free. So are similar toolchains from Lattice and Altera. It's true that you may not get as much free IP with the home version but, these days, Xilinx is giving away quite a bit. You can use the MicroBlaze core and many of the peripherals for free where, earlier, with ISE, these weren't available to the hobbyist. Just the DDR core is a blessing.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 01, 2019, 05:11:04 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on January 01, 2019, 03:23:53 pmI don't think Electrical Engineering is a high growth field in the US but it is about average at 7% over 10 years or a little over 21,000 new jobs. I don't know how many universities (or colleges) turn out EEs but I don't think their entire graduating classes are going to find jobs at only 2000 openings per year.https://www.bls.gov/ooh/architecture-and-engineering/electrical-and-electronics-engineers.htmJob growth is a little faster for Mechanical Engineers but it doesn't pay as much:https://www.bls.gov/ooh/architecture-and-engineering/mechanical-engineers.htmSoftware Developer is growing at 24% over 10 years and it pays better - a lot better.https://www.bls.gov/ooh/computer-and-information-technology/software-developers.htmNotice the growth of 300k jobs over 10 years. I would go with the "law of large numbers" and figure I could easily be one in 300k.I'm kind of a numbers guy and I would head for software. More jobs, more growth, more money.So, as a young person starting out in college, which major would you choose? It sure as hell wouldn't be EE or ME when software doesn't require anywhere near the level of math and is pretty much dead simple (in comparison).I don't know about ME but EE school is hard work. And for what? Instant unemployment and substandard wages? I wouldn't do it again!

author: ocset
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 01, 2019, 05:34:34 pm
content: QuoteThanks Coppice, i have answered your questions in previous threads, but am wary of recounting this info as it is deemed political.....eg post #24 of thishttps://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/many-uk-electronics-engineers-are-doing-nothing-at-work/msg1990076/#msg1990076Thanks also for other comments on VHDL etcQuoteThanks, well in my opinion, i reckon that anyone who has A levels in Physics and maths, and who wants to, could learn how to design a basic DCDC LED driver........however, with software , i am doubtful that "anyone" could do it.As you know, DCDC LED drivers are ruled by the Laws of Physics.......which are all over the internet, and are made by Mother nature, not humans.......Software Law is governed by Humans...those who write the compilers and who design the language....that to me, adds a level of complexity over it...which makes it harder to learn than basic hardware, eg general SMPS design.I think the reason that China has totally dominated Power Supply design, and led driver design, is because its easier.....we dont yet see too many Chinese VHDL consultancies, or C software consultancies, offering their services to the West...but i think in time we will......it will take a bit more time, because its harder.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 01, 2019, 06:09:06 pm
content: Quote from: treez on January 01, 2019, 05:34:34 pmThe reason China dominates in power supply design is because the big global power supply makers, like Delta, moved their production to Dong Guan. Then they gradually tested the waters with simple local designs, and built up from there, until the simplest supplies up to the most complex digitally controlled ones were mostly engineered in China. After that the engineers could take their accumulated expertise to locally owned firms, and upgrade the design expertise there. A lot of people complain that as soon as engineers in China gain expertise in a new technology introduced to them by a foreign company they leave, start their own local firm, and make life hard for the foreign company. While this is true, its pretty much the same anywhere that it is reasonably easy to start your own firm. Even if you can't take patented ideas with you, you can take an awful lot of what you have learned. If you couldn't, there would be no reason to pay a premium for experienced people.There are quite a few software and hardware design consultancies in China, but its a tough market in which to get paid. Its hard to formulate a business model that works well. You don't often see these people in the west, as they have no interest in addressing western markets. They like to stick to things they understand, which makes sense. Since most of their potential customers are in China, I doubt this will ever change.

author: ocset
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 01, 2019, 06:49:59 pm
content: Thanks Coppice i agree with you, but the reason is because general hardware is simpler than general software.I think the UK software market would be of interest to China if they had sufficient number of software engineers in China...they dont yet, they soon will.At the moment, they need all their Chinese software people for their internal Chinese market.I used to work for a xenon flash place.....they got their offline 70w power supply designed and made in China....they then tried to get their software written by the Chinese too.....but this just wasnt available at anything like an achievable price. -Even though it wasnt exactly a terribly demanding software spec....it was literally a simple device which flashed high power light into the skin to kill off hair growth...as you can imagine, the software spec wasnt terribly highly demanding....but the Chinese couldnt offer us anything for that.I think its a sign that ultimately, general software is harder than general hardware.

author: dmills
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 01, 2019, 08:20:22 pm
content: I can teach a hardware guy to bash out simple software orders of magnitude more easily then I can teach a software guy how his computer REALLY works!Now proper grown up software engineering and development is a whole other matter of course, but the simple stuff? Meh! It is just state machines all the way downReally if you are going to design hardware in this day and age it is WELL worth picking up the rudiments of C on small processors, ideally also assembler (For one or two common parts, but once you know one or two a new one comes very, very easily), if you do not bother to learn this stuff you are really crimping your abilities (Even in power supply design).Seriously there are LOTS of places in a hardware design where throwing a well chosen small micro, CPLD or FPGA at it makes the design simpler, cheaper and more reliable, refusing to at least consider these parts makes you a MUCH less useful design engineer.It is worth noting that a pulsed light hair removal machine is probably classed as a medical device, so I can well see anyone with a bit of sense wanting nothing to do with it unless there was HUGE money in play to make the paperwork and liability worth it.73 Dan.

author: ocset
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 01, 2019, 09:37:53 pm
content: QuoteI must admit it amazes me when i meet software guys that can't undertsand basic hardware...because the software that they write is far more demanding than basic hardware knowledge.Some people, are just "software genius's"....they love software, they want to spend their every waking hour doing it, and they are amazingly good at it.Many of them have little interest in hardware because they know they can earn loads without having to dabble in hardware....just leave that to the hardware bods.But i stand by the conviction that software is generally harder than basic SMPS design.And im saying that as someone who has written hundreds of basic C programs for various test jigs for hardware testing.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 01, 2019, 10:03:21 pm
content: Quote from: treez on January 01, 2019, 02:45:22 pmWe are? A dear departed uncle was an electronics engineer, spent his whole life in the field. When his son was asking for career advice, he said, "Don't go into engineering." I disagreed with him on that, since I have no problem with my career choice as an engineer. However, I think his point was that you could be better rewarded doing other things than being an engineer. In his view, engineers were (are) undervalued and under-compensated.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 01, 2019, 10:13:23 pm
content: Treez, it's very difficult to respond to you when you so readily confuse "doing electronics" with "being an engineer".There is a difference between using VHDL to design things, and understanding what VHDL is and how it works. Using VHDL to design things is a fine goal, and is after all what VHDL is meant for. However, an engineer should have the curiosity, the imagination and the initiative to go deeper than that, to really follow the steps in the chain between the VHDL that you write and the final realization in hardware, and how those steps link together. Being able to do that is one of the key things that will let you walk into a rewarding job somewhere, either working with large scale integration, or something completely different.

author: dmills
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 01, 2019, 10:43:24 pm
content: And besides UNDERSTANDING what the tools are doing is just so plain cool (And WILL make you a much better designer).I love what the open source guys are doing with synth and P&R for the Lattice (and now 7 series!) FPGAs. Documenting FPGA bitstreams by fuzzing the inputs to the tools and seeing how the bitstreams change, how cool is that! Crazy shit, but it has worked so far for a surprisingly large proportion of the fabric.Software to a standard to allow one to write simple control systems is **Easy** compared to hardware (The maths can get as gnarly as ever, but that does not change much if doing it analogue), software at large scale is possibly the most complex thing humans do, but that is not usually what is needed.A few pages of code to control a power converter (Based on some TI app note) or scan some switches or something? Any hardware engineer should be able to bash that out on demand, it is just not that tough.Same thing goes for the software crowd, understanding the costs of cache misses, (Not to say the latencies involved in sending for data over the PCIe bus, and maybe even things like power sidechannel issues if security is your thing) will make a better programmer, the two fields are intertwined if you ever with to play at being more then a hack at either one.Treez, your contention that all software is magic is not borne out in my experience (Some software, yea, but mostly it is just engineering).73 Dan.

author: ocset
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 01, 2019, 10:48:03 pm
content: Thanks, i must admit ive worked in over 35 different electronics depts. Ive worked with a lot of embedded software guys doing C for micro's. Ive even written several software specs for software guys doing C for micros.But i have never met, or even heard about a single engineer doing VHDL in any of the places where i have worked.There must have been some at Alcatel but i never heard about them, but heard about lots of "C for micro's guys".Getting a handle on what VHDL is, and how a student new to electronics should approach it, is quite opaque.I havent the time to learn VHDL, but realise that there is a need to give a basic description of it for newcomers to the trade.As far as i know, VHDL is for writing software that runs very fast, or for software (if i may call it that) that needs to be written in a way that must be very reliable.........or its for making logic function devices by burning it into a fpga, which save you the money of having a chip fabbed. I've no idea if i'm right here.QuoteThanks, i think in most UK co's, there's no work time given to someone who "might" well be able to engineer it.....funds are only forthcoming if an engineer has already done the job umpteen times before and can give a virtual exact hour-count of how long the job will take.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 01, 2019, 11:01:17 pm
content: Quote from: treez on January 01, 2019, 10:48:03 pmThat's not even wrong.It would take too long to try to duplicate expositions elsewhere, and I doubt I would succeed in getting the concepts across.Suffice it to say that VHDL/Verilog is to C/Java as hardware is to software.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 01, 2019, 11:03:11 pm
content: Quote from: treez on January 01, 2019, 10:48:03 pmNo, not this all. The clue to VHDL is in the name: Hardware Description Language. It is an abstract description of the functions that you want a piece of hardware to perform. It is a description in the sense that it is not executable code. It is rather, a specification for something to be made.The tools that process VHDL read the description, go through various internal processing steps, and output a raw hardware description for the chosen platform.Now, you could of course emulate the hardware in software, in which case the VHDL could be processed by a software emulator (making it, in a sense, "software"). But this is not really the goal.

author: dmills
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 01, 2019, 11:13:26 pm
content: Software tells a predefined chip what to DO, a HDL tells a chip what to BE!It is not a subtle difference, and is why the software mindset tends to map very, very poorly to writing HDL for all that both involve typing things into text editors.FPGAs for example have not really got any inherent notion of sequence, if you want sequence you pipeline or use a state machine, which is very different to software where you typically have a 'mostly sequential plus stack' model when you dig down far enough.Simulation is actually a BIG part of the workflow, HDL engineers invented TDD years before the software crowd, the testbench is very much the majority of the code for most projects.Regards, Dan.

author: ocset
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 01, 2019, 11:49:13 pm
content: Thanks, those are great descriptions.I have met a number of out of work "Masters degree in Automation" type engineers from Poland in UK.One used to bring his "Siemens logo" in and play with it in break times.I was surprised they all cant get jobs in their field.I suspect there arent many jobs in VHDL/FPGA.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 02, 2019, 01:55:49 am
content: Quote from: treez on January 01, 2019, 11:49:13 pmAre you sure you've ever actually worked in an electronics company? VHDL and Verilog are core skills needed to get any kind of job in chip design. Do you think those are small employment opportunities?

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 02, 2019, 02:37:53 am
content: Quote from: coppice on January 02, 2019, 01:55:49 amNo, I'm sure there's no market for large scale integrated chips these days. Consider all sorts of modern electronics like smart phones--they are all designed using discrete components. There are very few chips inside them

author: ocset
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 02, 2019, 01:11:59 pm
content: I must admit that ive always thought that in Electronics, there are “lesser” guys like myself who use Chips like Opamps, comparators, 3 input OR gates, Microcontrollers, PWM controllers, FET drivers. Temperature monitors, current monitors etc etc etc…………………….and then there are the real genius’s who actually design and fabricate these chips.I confess I don’t know what an FPGA would do in a mobile phone. I thought mobile phones were made of standard ICs like I mentioned previously, and then microcprocessors, and also some RF/Microwave components and some power conversion type components.I can appreciate that some of the microwave components in a mobile phone would be integrated into some RFIC's , which might be custom made for the phone, but i imagine that this sort of work is for PhD types.QuoteThanks, well, not "all" software, but even finding a software engineer in UK who can handle DALI comms libraries and thus write C software to make a dimmable led lamp is hard in UK...these engineers are very hard to find, and are expensive......its not possible to hire a cheaper engineer to do it from China........this asserts my opinion that general SMPS design is much easier than general embedded C software design.....because China can do virtually any power supply...and cheaply....Ask for a Chinese software engineer to write your DALI dimmable code (say), and it wont be affordable, because this is harder work.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 02, 2019, 01:37:12 pm
content: Quote from: treez on January 02, 2019, 01:11:59 pmThat's a strange viewpoint.Given the abominable behaviour of some ICs, clearly some aren't geniuses. Given the way that some engineers use their skill and imagination when using standard ICs, clearly some of them are "geniuses".For the latter, have a look at your copy of TAoE 3, the "masterclasses" examples. Youdohave a copy, don't you?QuoteSigh. If you read the electronics newsfeeds, you would realise that usually the "big" ICs in phones consist of a ARM core plus whatever logic the phone company wants to have in there. In other words, they are "standard" to one company. They could well be implemented as Zync FPGAs, except the cost and power consumption would be prohibitive in a phone.QuoteWhat on earth makes you think a "PhD" is a suitable discriminant/characterisation?

author: Wilksey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 02, 2019, 04:13:02 pm
content: Andrew, I presume you have told people here that the article you posted a link to is in fact yours?Hint: You might want to take the Wix default template stuff out of the bottom of the page.I am going to guess that you have done some work with SMPS and not a lot else? VHDL / Verilog is NOT software, it is a hardware description language, and whilst you could learn chip design and make an ASIC from an FPGA, it'd cost you an arm, kidney and bollock to do so, so as a lone engineer it is not attainable...yet.I have a HND in software engineering, and self taught electronics engineer, which I do as a primary job, software engineering comes in a close 2nd as 99% of my stuff is uC driven and I write boiler plate code to prove the HW is working, as well as writing desktop, mobile and web apps (the joys of "IoT")I wouldn't expect a software engineer to know about polarity of power supplies or where to plug things and certainly not what something does or how it works, if they do, then great, if not then you can't expect otherwise just because you perceive hardware as easier, they perceive software as easier as it is what they do!It's like a plumber telling an electrician that plumbing is easier than electrics, sure it is for a plumber, not for an electrician though.There are still a good few electronics jobs around in the UK, it just depends what you want to do, if you want to learn how to use an FPGA then there are a few tutorials around to help you get started.There are no "lesser" EE's there are different skillsets, with electronics, same as software, you never stop learning, there is always a new industry to apply your knowledge to, something you never thought would need EE or SE skills are suddenly relevant to you.If you have never designed a power supply then you wouldn't be expected to design one that works first time or works 100% as intended, sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't. if you've never designed with a uC, you may well forget about the reset line needed to be pulled high or low, or the programming header etc.Most FPGA vendors will supply a toolchain for some of their parts for free, some now even offer free tools for mid range FPGAs which you can do a fair bit with.You can get a FPGA dev kit just as easily as you can get a uC dev kit these days, one of the most common hobbyist uses for an FPGA / CPLD is to emulate older console / computer hardware, like proprietary chipsets used in older machines, and then chuck in a 6502 / Z80 /68000 core for good measure and you suddenly have an SoC, or a major part of it.The most difficult thing these days I find is knowing what to use and which particular device to use, there are so bloody many to choose from!

author: ocset
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 02, 2019, 05:05:24 pm
content: QuoteGuilty confession...no, i used to borrow that from the library.I bought the alternative book by Theodore Bogart.These days, the only books i ever buy, due to expense, are by Christophe Basso or Ray Ridley

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 02, 2019, 05:11:40 pm
content: There’s a PDF floating around. Google for it.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 02, 2019, 06:13:16 pm
content: Quote from: treez on January 02, 2019, 05:05:24 pmYou are crippling yourself by your inaction, feeling it, and blaming external factors.It shows in several areas; the result isn't pretty.

author: ocset
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 02, 2019, 08:07:57 pm
content: Thanks, i am not sure that the concensus is against the fact that the Chinese "dont" give software consultancy as much as they do SMPS design because Software consultancy is harder , generally.It does appear to be because SMPS is easier than software in gerneral.ie, thats why the Chinese dont yet do software for the West on any significant scale like they do smps design.

author: dmills
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 02, 2019, 10:07:15 pm
content: It is not easier in a engineering sense, but it easier to specify in a more or less standard way, and that makes a HUGE difference when your pool of engineers are often not English speaking or reading.Software canonically goes to India rather then China for two reasons:1: TIMEZONE, taking a phone call from India is significantly less annoying then taking one from China, and given the difficulty in fully specifying software there will very likely be phone calls.2: India has an education system that for engineering makes sure the students learn English, which given how difficult it is to specify even a trivial software system is a big win when it comes to outsourcing the 'typing' from a western company.The reason power converters are so easy to subcontract is because they are a no brainer to specify. I mean for most uses I can throw together a couple of pages of A4 that will completely specify the electrical behaviour of a power supply that I want designed, with another page or two of A3 showing where I want it to fit, and providing it meets that spec I really don't care about the details.You try doing this for even noddy software sometime, often quicker just to bash the code out yourself if the contractor does not have knowledge of the problem you are actually trying to solve.Regards, Dan.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 02, 2019, 10:26:23 pm
content: Quote from: treez on January 02, 2019, 08:07:57 pmYou keep referring to one type of engineering being harder than another, but all engineering is hard. If you don't find it so, that's because you aren't taking it seriously, and competitors will eventually wipe you out. It might be hard because you are pushing high complexity, or esoteric maths, or just squeezing the last cent out of a high volume BOM, but it needs to be challenging the protagonists in some way if the business is to survive.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2019, 12:04:10 am
content: Quote from: coppice on January 02, 2019, 10:26:23 pmThere's truth in that.Nonetheless, I don't think it will change the OP's attitudes, actions and opinions - since the alternatives are easier

author: ocset
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 05, 2019, 12:38:36 pm
content: Thankyou for your help. The following is the udated guide to doing a degree in Electronics in UK.I have to say UK because i believe its very different in other countries (?)https://massey276.wixsite.com/electronicsdegreeI think the salient point is that there is no other guide like this, anywhere on the web, and certainly, schoolkids dont get offered any kind of description of it at all.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 05, 2019, 01:06:37 pm
content: Quote from: treez on January 05, 2019, 12:38:36 pmI don't want to restart the discussion of the content. But could you get rid of the spotty "mould" background on that page please? Makes it unnecessarily hard to read.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 05, 2019, 01:17:03 pm
content: Quote from: treez on January 05, 2019, 12:38:36 pmNo and good, respectively.I think you should keep the "mouldy" background and poor contrast text.

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 05, 2019, 01:22:23 pm
content: Quote

author: KJDS
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 05, 2019, 03:44:21 pm
content: I've read some rubbish in my life, some of which I've written myself, but that "guide" is very very very poor.It's obviously been written by someone that hasn't spent decent time in a dozen or more UK university electronics departments. It's also obviously written by someone that can't write, and just wants to demonstrate that he's chosen a narrow field and failed to find useful employment in it.I was in a Russell Group uni last month, chatting with an electronics prof and asked him if any of his undergrads would be looking to start work next Autumn. Every one of them already has decent work lined up, typically £35 to £40k salary or else is going on to do a Masters.

author: ocset
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 05, 2019, 04:46:41 pm
content: QuoteThanks, would you say that a (better) "Guide to doing an electronics degree" for sub 18 year olds actually exists anywhere?QuoteThanks, how many British Domiciles graduate with an Electronics degree each year? (EG recently , ie 2013 2014 2015, 2016, 2017, 2018)..Please note, i already tried to pay the ONS for the figure, but they won't give it out...if they even know it.Also, why do you suppose that the Dyson company has recently started its own Engineering University.00:23 onwards of this...

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 05, 2019, 04:57:21 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on January 02, 2019, 10:26:23 pmThe problem with software consulting is that it is never finished. The original requirement specs are trash, nobody has ever built a program like this and, even when the contract runs out, there will still be requirements unmet.Power supplies, indeed most commercial electronics, are pretty easy to specify. Volts in, volts out, current capability as well as standards compliance - standards that are actually published as opposed to "I don't like where you put the button on the screen!".Software is always a "blue versus green" kind of deal. I want it "blue" and the other guy wants it "green" and we spend all our time on nonsense.

author: ocset
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 05, 2019, 05:02:25 pm
content: Thankyou to rstofer and dmills on your sentiments...you are of course absolutely correct, and i can see this now.All i can now say is that "in my opinion", general SMPS design is easier than general embedded software design.But even having said that, we had a software guy who was Italian...and he did us a perfectly satisfactory job....ok, yes, we had to go back to him a few times for mods, but generally that was fine....He never came to our UK office...admittedly , the software was just a DALI dimmable lamp...........any large embedded system, i admit, could be problematic when done from China to UK or wherever.

author: KJDS
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 05, 2019, 05:21:29 pm
content: Quote from: treez on January 05, 2019, 04:46:41 pmI don't believe that those who will make good engineers need spoonfeeding.

author: ocset
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 05, 2019, 05:22:57 pm
content: But rather it is a guide, rather than a spoonfeed......they will still have to slog on after reading that guide.Out of interest, how would you solve the shortage of engineers in UK for example?

author: KJDS
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 05, 2019, 06:03:23 pm
content: Quote from: treez on January 05, 2019, 05:22:57 pmDyson wants to create more engineers so he can pay them less.I know plenty of people like me in their 50s who will work on interesting work, or highly paid work, but don't need to do either.There isn't a shortage of good engineers, more a shortage of interesting work and companies willing to pay well.

author: ocset
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 05, 2019, 06:26:53 pm
content: QuoteThe cost of setting up and running the Dyson University i think will be way more than just paying his engineers more instead.QuoteI think in the UK at least, there is a great need for much more of both engineers and engineering companies....i think more interesting and highly payed work would come through if those things increased.I have ways of prooving that, and of solving it, but posting this here could arise problems due to being deemed political....unless others want to hear of it.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 05, 2019, 08:18:50 pm
content: Quote from: rstofer on January 05, 2019, 04:57:21 pmThe problem with hardware consulting is that it is never finished. The original requirement specs are trash, nobody has ever built a device like this and, even when the contract runs out, there will still be requirements unmet.Basic aspects of software, as with, say, a power supply, are pretty easy to specify. E.g. Volts in, volts out, current capability as well as standards compliance. The devil is in the details.Equipment is always a "blue versus green" kind of deal. I want it "blue" and the other guy wants it "green" and we spend all our time on nonsense.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 05, 2019, 08:20:06 pm
content: Quote from: KJDS on January 05, 2019, 06:03:23 pmWell, of course there's a shortage of interesting work in the UK. People like Dyson moved it all to Asia years ago.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 05, 2019, 08:23:36 pm
content: Quote from: KJDS on January 05, 2019, 03:44:21 pmI'm wondering how a professor would know this? When I was at college the faculty people had no clue where we stood with our job hunting. They gained some input later on, through surveys sent to graduates long after graduation.Have most of these students found jobs in electronics in the UK?

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 05, 2019, 08:31:21 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on January 05, 2019, 08:23:36 pmMaybe it was just a polite way of saying that he did not want his students involved with KJDS.