elementary school "mathematics"  - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2017, 10:24:43 am
content: Just would like to know what you think of this.My stepson is in the last year of elementary school, next year going to highschool.Now they have a lot of things to test, two of them are:- "comprehensionable reading" where you get texts and need to distill the essence of the text in your own words.He sucks at that, too bad we make him read more books but he just does not get it, yet.- Then there is math, you know the tables, adding, deducting, multiplication, division etc.He is pretty good at that, can estimate the result so knows when he messed up and correct it. Also counting from his head works good.Now my personal frustration about the educational system in our country is that they do not givemath tests anymore like 350 / 25 = ? and 10*34 = ?No they changed this in to:Carl (Karel) has a bag of 60 apples he would like to give to his schoolclass.There are 10 kids in the class. 5 kids do not like apples.How many kids get how many apples ?So my opinion:This is not pure math, it is for a large part again "comprehensionable reading".Then it is not 100% clear to solve, since although the kids do not like apples do theyget them or not? You have to assume they do not get apples since they don't like it.Is Carl (Karel) one of the 10 kids in the class, if so does he keep an equal amount of apples? Or is he one that does not like apples, hence why he gives them away.Does the teacher get an apple?It really messes my stepson up, and now he even gets bad grades on this part.If you gave him the 60/10 or 60/5 sum it was peanuts for him, now he gets no points.I get angry, this is not a pure math test, it is 50% comprehensionable reading test,which is already tested in other tests. It is a huge disadvantage for kids that are not good at that.I asked the teacher for the outcome and reasoned with her how she knows that Karel does not keep any apples, or that the kids that do not like apples get none?She could not give a proper answer, just hides behind her "correct answer" sheet provided by the government.So what do you think, is this fair? How does this work in other countries?

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2017, 11:57:51 am
content: I agree it's confusing.Perhaps you should get him to justify his answer on the answer sheet? For example: "Assuming the teacher and children who don't like apples don't get any, Carl and the children, who like apples, get 10 apples each."The trouble with that, is it's a lot of writing and could slow him down.

author: TheAmmoniacal
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 03, 2017, 12:01:07 pm
content: I agree with you completely here. It's a desperate attempt of making math  easier to learn, by making it "practical" and relating it to the "real" world. Only getting more common.

author: The Soulman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2017, 12:32:27 pm
content: when I was eight years old (long time ago..) I needed to solve something like:There are three dogs, the first one weighs 60 kg, the second one 30 kg, and thethird one 10 kg and eats 500 grams of food each day.Questions:1.How much food does the first dog each day?2.How much food does the second dog each day?3.How much food do all three dogs combined eat in one week?Luckily it wasn't a exam because I got in a major discussion with my teacher and even got detention.My argument: there are to many variables into how much a dog eats, answers cannot be given based only on body weight.

author: rob77
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2017, 12:37:03 pm
content: such question in a test is supposed to reveal the way of thinking as well... and because of the unclear nature of the question there are several correct solutions. if someone says "fuck this shit i want a 1+1 question" then he obviously failed horribly...btw.. over here such a worded math questions are very common but in 3rd or 4th grade of elementary school (9-10 years old kids)

author: rob77
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2017, 12:42:24 pm
content: Quote from: The Soulman on January 03, 2017, 12:32:27 pmthe purpose of such a very unclear question is to raise a discussion and force the kids to think... so if you got detention for it.. then sorry but your teacher was literally STUPID.

author: TheAmmoniacal
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 03, 2017, 12:48:16 pm
content: I love this one:"A chemist mixes 3.75 ml of a solution A with 5.625 ml of a solution B to get a new solution. How many milliliters is the new solution?"Anyone see the problem?

author: rob77
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2017, 12:57:55 pm
content: Quote from: TheAmmoniacal on January 03, 2017, 12:48:16 pmit might be intentional - to test if the kid is paying attention to detail....

author: Alex Nikitin
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2017, 01:12:21 pm
content: As a former teacher and one from a family of three generations of teachers, I just assume that the modern educational system is devised not to give any proper education, except by an accident. With that in mind, I probably should start to save now for my grandson's private tuition... .CheersAlex

author: ZeTeX
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2017, 01:21:11 pm
content: I'm currently in first year of high school, we don't get much questions like that, maybe for kids that are level 3. (there is level 3, level 4, and level 5, where level 3 is basically for those who suck at math and they can't go lower then that, level 4 is more complicated and almost like level 5 just a tiny bit easier, but you can study at universe at level 4, and level 5 is the hardest and annoying and you can definitely study at universety engineering).I'm level 4 and currently what is the hardest at least for me is a subject about proofing - this is basically to see how you understand math not exactly by logic but by sentences, e.g "in square all the lines equal the same length" and such things.they can give you a question with a triangle, a few medians and ask you to proof that one of the median is really a median. there are no numbers in this subject only sentences and I absolutely suck at this but this is a very big part in level 4 and 5 (not in level 3) and if I want to stay at level 4 I pretty much have to know this subject.Usually I understand math by logic, I can see in the drawing of the questions why things are like that and this is why I'm pretty good at analytic geometry and equations and subjects that are pure math with numbers, I don't have to bloody proof them that this is a triangle goddamt I can see this is a bloody triangle in my bloody eyes.They way math in school is built is so that most of the people can be good at it and get good grades IF they study A LOT. it's not much about logic or thinking but more of how much you practice at home, "solve math questions about a subject you study for 8 hours a day and you will be level 5 with high score in university." this is true for most of the people who study in school math, IMO.Also the levels are not "easy, medium, hard" but more like easy, hard and very hard. you can suck at level 4 really bad but you can be extremely good in level 3, there is no between, and the difference between level 5 and 4 are really bugger all.

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2017, 01:28:51 pm
content: I remember reading that the wordiness of last year's SAT math tests was causing a lot of trouble too for similar reasons. The liberal crowd think they make it easier for people poor at abstract reasoning and that this will even the playing field, but it didn't really work out that way.Small comfort ... trying to see through muddled language is an useful skill. As long as they write tests with right answer there are ways to perform well and to train to do so. Once they devise math test in which there simply is no objective way to judge when someone does well, then it's really time to get scared.

author: orolo
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2017, 01:29:19 pm
content: Quote from: Kjelt on January 03, 2017, 10:24:43 amThis is a new trend in Europe, with an emphasis on "common math", that is, math that is oriented to everyday problems. The Pisa exams, which are used to qualify countries for their math and reading skills, are full of these problems.I hate this focus on common math, too. At higher levels (eg. high school) the focus on simple problem solving displaces the emphasis on formal math, to the point that students are not ready for higher maths at college levels.For example, from a "common math" perspective, integer factorization is well learnt when you can solve typical problems like synchronizing blinking streetlights or grouping tourists in hotels according to country. The problem is that the formal ideas about integer factorization are crucial at the late stages of high school, when students are supposed to understand polynomial factorization in one variable, which is far away from common math, but theoretically very similar to integer factorization.In an ideal world there would be time for common and abstract math. In the real world, IMHO, formal math comes first, and trivial problems (but convoluted in terms of simple details) follow in good time. There is no time to beat simple problems to death when we have so little time for the students to learn all the gory details needed for college science and engineering.QuoteIt think this is utter bullshit. In my country every stupid pedagogic trend is promoted to law by useless, ignorant psychologists, pedagogues and politicians, with increasingly dismal results.

author: iaeen
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2017, 01:32:10 pm
content: This is an engineering forum, and I'm an engineer whose memory of school is probably more recent than most here. I don't think you should try to compartmentalize subjects the way you do. "Pure math" is mostly useless unless you have a PhD and tenure. For better or worse the education system (especially in the US) isn't trying to teach you anything for the sake of the subject; it is trying to get you into a university and eventually into some professional degree.I strongly disagree with everyone here who thinks this is an attempt to "dumb down" the subject; they are intentionally raising the bar. I saw many people in engineering school who could solve all the equations that you could throw at them, but as soon as they tried to solve a real engineering problem, they crashed and burned. This inability to apply math skills to (more or less) real situations is a legitimate gap in the "traditional" curriculum that newer methods are trying to solve.I agree, to my engineering mind, the problem is underspecified. Yes, teachers and even people who write these curricula aren't the smartest. We don't pay our educators enough to attract the best and brightest. The clever student still has a couple of options:1. Game the system. This is a made up question, so to "win" all you have to do is get inside the mind of the person who framed the question. At a primary school level, it's probably a good assumption that all information is relevant, so if they tell you that someone doesn't like apples, don't give them any. The problem then reduces down to 60/(10-5).2. Do what Soulman did. Take the challenge and prove the system wrong. You'll end up smarter than the people who write these curricula, and if you can hold on to that sentiment until university, you'll probably find a kindred spirit among some of the better professors.2.5. Realize that elementary school (and for the most part high school) grades don't matter. Absolutelynobodyis ever going to care what grades you get in middle school. This is a dangerous path if someone doesn't like to learn since it requires the person to find their own motivation.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2017, 01:39:42 pm
content: Quote from: iaeen on January 03, 2017, 01:32:10 pmNot in the Netherlands. Here if you belong to 50% or lower of the median you go to lower vocational education and never ever can get to a university or it will take 12 years and other schools in between will not accept you even if they should.They seperate all the kids based on their score in the elementary school into three school systems: low, medium, high. Getting from medium to high will take some years but is possible, from low to high takes a lot of years and is made virtual impossible.If you are at the lower vocational education than at age 14 you also already should choose your occupation. If you choose wrong then you're screwed. This system is now under heavy fire since there are a lot of kids that are unable to find a job later on while they choose the wrong one when they were 14.I never paid much attention to this since I myself went to high and university and college but since my stepson is now probably ending up in the low category since they also frustrated his math skills I dug in to this and now also tv shows are paying attention because it is kind of rediculous. We are the only stupid country in Europe that does this by the way. It will only benefit the smartest kids since they are not "hold back" in class by the less smart, at least that is the underlying theory.

author: orolo
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2017, 01:43:31 pm
content: Well, all this comes at a price. In my country, Spain, the Finnish education model is regarded by pedagogues as the best of the best. Here are two links about what happens when common math dominates high school:http://matematiikkalehtisolmu.fi/2005/erik/PisaEng.htmlhttp://matematiikkalehtisolmu.fi/2005/erik/KivTarEng.htmlA pertinent quote:Quote

author: borjam
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 03, 2017, 01:43:53 pm
content: Quote from: Kjelt on January 03, 2017, 10:24:43 amThat reminds me of a Spanish joke about modern education. The question should be: Circle the world "apple" and discuss it with your buddy".

author: StillTrying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2017, 01:52:59 pm
content: I was the same, education doesn't like people who question.http://justsomething.co/32-hilarious-kids-test-answershttp://distractify.com/old-school/2015/01/12/test-answers-that-are-totally-wrong-but-still-genius-1197820269

author: slicendice
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2017, 01:56:49 pm
content: In math, the important thing is how you arrive to the solution not the actual solution itself. It's the thinking that counts. This is how stuff works in high school and universities.I also hate those stupid questions where they ask for something, but they don't state enough details for the answer to be solved. I don't know...but either I'm very intelligent and see that not enough information is there, or the elementary school teachers are so dumb that they don't know how to express them selves in proper sentences.I would solve that question like this:Known:- 60 apples- 10 students- 5 don't like apples- teacher is not part of the classSolution 1:Assume that the students who don't like apples gets apples anyway because it is not clearly stated that they don't get one. Carl can give the apples anyway, whether the other students like apples or not.Assume that Carl gives apples to himself too as there are 10 students in total in class, Carl is part of the class and it is not clearly stated that he does not give apples to himself.apples/student = total_ apples / total_ studentsapples/student = 60 apples / 10 students = 6 apples/studentANSWER: Each student gets 6 applesSolution 2:Assume that the students who don't like apples gets apples anyway because it is not clearly stated that they don't get one. Carl can give the apples anyway, whether the other students like apples or not.Assume that Carl does not give apples to himself because they are already in his possession and he wants to give the apples away.Assume that because knives are not allowed in school, any remaining apples that can not be shared equally will be left in the sack.We have to remove Carl from total studentsapples/student = total_ apples / ( total_ students - Carl)apples/student = 60 apples / (10 student - 1 student ) = 60 apples / (10 students - 1 student) = 6 apples/student REST 6ANSWER: Each student get 6 apples and 6 apples remain in the sackSolution 3:Assume that the students who don't like apples won't get anyAssume that Carl does not give apples to himself because they are already in his possession and he wants to give the apples away.Assume that because knives are not allowed in school, any remaining apples that can not be shared equally will be left in the sack.We have to remove Carl and the students that don't like apples from total studentsapples/student = total_ apples / ( total_ students - Carl - do_not_like_apples)apples/student = 60 apples / (10 student - 1 student - 5 students) = 60 apples / (10 students - 1 student - 5 students) = 60 apples / 4 students = 15 apples/studentANSWER: Each student get 15 applesSolution 4:Assume that the students who don't like apples won't get anyAssume that Carl gives apples to himself too as there are 10 students in total in class, Carl is part of the class and it is not clearly stated that he does not give apples to himself.Assume that because knives are not allowed in school, any remaining apples that can not be shared equally will be left in the sack.We have to remove the students that don't like apples from total studentsapples/student = total_ apples / ( total_ students - do_not_like_apples)apples/student = 60 apples / (10 student - 5 students) = 60 apples / (10 students - 5 students) = 60 apples / 5 students = 12 apples/studentANSWER: Each student get 12 applesEDIT: fixed a missing word

author: slicendice
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2017, 01:59:17 pm
content: YES, solving just a bunch of equations will get you nowhere. The questions that are in text form and explains a problem are the most important ones. If you don't understand the math you can't solve such questions, but you might be able to crack any formula that is thrown at you. :-)

author: iaeen
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2017, 02:10:41 pm
content: Quote from: Kjelt on January 03, 2017, 01:39:42 pmAh, yes. Sorry I (foolishly) assumed you were in the US. Yes, I know your flag is shown on your post, but this sounds like the same kind of complaint that Americans have about "new" teaching styles. Admittedly, the stakes are lower in the US at that level.As to the teaching styles, I do think that there is a lot of unfair bias against them. Most people have a psychological aversion to changes like this. Sure, the education system promotes the "special snowflake" mentality more than it does, but there are some positive changes that are happening.As to locking students in at such a young age. I agree, that's sad. Hell, I can't seem to make up my mind about what I want to do, and I'm 30.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2017, 02:18:26 pm
content: Quote from: Kjelt on January 03, 2017, 10:24:43 amIn another thread you attack universities for focusing on memorization and avoiding thinking about real world problems. Here you are on the other side of the argument. Are you saying that elementary school is too early to learn to think?

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2017, 02:20:40 pm
content: Over here we got those written math problems for a long time too. I think they are intended to be that way to make the kids think about how the problem could be solved, i.e. the relation between the numbers given. Take the dog food example from above. Of course it's very simplified, details are missing and it might contradict real world experience. But if the story problem would be amended by "... assuming that the amount of food a dog eats is proportional to the dog's weight", it would be a dead giveaway. The original version requires that the kid realizes the relation between the dog's weight and the amount of food. And don't forget, in math you make assumptions and simplifications to solve problems more easily. I don't say that the story problems are the best thing ever

author: helius
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2017, 02:25:14 pm
content: The questions that are vague are not "teaching you to think", they are teaching you to "think like the test writer"; in other words, to conform.

author: Jeroen3
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2017, 02:27:45 pm
content: I feel the discussion of the school system of the Netherlands might need a slight explanation.Elementary school, which is from age 4 to 12-14, split in 8 years, although they easily make you redo a year, especially in the first few. Only the last two years have a standardized Cito test, named question can be found there.During regular lessons, there still are rows of equations, I think.wThe result of the last standardized test, and the recommendation of the teacher, determines if you will follow low, middle or high follow-up education.However, due to recent release of statistics with "racial influences in follow-up advises" the weight of the teacher is been made lower.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_in_the_Netherlands

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2017, 02:33:01 pm
content: Quote from: Kjelt on January 03, 2017, 01:39:42 pmGermany is a pretty big exception as well (and a few others). Comprehensive high school can be a problem for both high and low achievers with overly rigid state curricula (like common core, but at least the high achievers can skip classes and do AP to avoid damage).PS. if you think the kid can do better but is held back by the school there's always the option of training for the CITO. I know, cramming is supposedly oh so bad for kids ... but need breaks law.

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2017, 02:42:08 pm
content: Quote from: helius on January 03, 2017, 02:25:14 pmDoes the real world or your boss give you nice and clear equations to solve? I don't think so.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2017, 02:46:59 pm
content: Quote from: CatalinaWOW on January 03, 2017, 02:18:26 pmNo I did not attack IMO, I replied to b_force to make the seperation between university and college in the Netherlands.And your last question, this has nothing to do to be able or learn how to think. It is about that some kids have more problems distilling facts from written words that are vague and now they are punished twice, which reflects in a lower total score than he deserves.BTW I asked the teacher why the kids do not learn as first step that they are using the decimal base system and explain it to them, she did not know what I was talking about

author: slicendice
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2017, 02:48:51 pm
content: Quote from: madires on January 03, 2017, 02:42:08 pmA really good question! I have not yet found a boss that has given me a problem to solve where are details and specifics are given accurately.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2017, 02:49:58 pm
content: Quote from: madires on January 03, 2017, 02:42:08 pmThe "Boss" has to make sure there is enough money., and persons and equipment for the project.

author: slicendice
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2017, 02:52:32 pm
content: The accountant makes sure there is enough moneyThe boss is the one responsible for getting all the crap when something goes wrong.

author: eugenenine
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2017, 02:54:05 pm
content: We had issues recently where my daughters work of 3 * 4 = 12 was wrong because the correct answer was 4 groups of 3 (order).

author: slicendice
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2017, 02:56:19 pm
content: What was the question and what was the problem domain?one plus one equals twois as accurate asone plus one equals threeor evenone plus one equals fourit all depends on the problem domain.

author: tpowell1830
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2017, 04:47:25 pm
content: Okay, don't laugh, but this guy (look past the long multicolored hair) is talking about the schools and how they teach. I tend to agree with his message.Also, his argument is solid.Enjoy..PEACE===>T

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2017, 05:50:07 pm
content: Quote from: tpowell1830 on January 03, 2017, 04:47:25 pmYes I saw that one few months back.The one ontopic that staid the longest in my memories is the nr1 best viewed Ted talk of all : Ken Robinson. Legendary talk.https://www.ted.com/playlists/171/the_most_popular_talks_of_all

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2017, 06:15:06 pm
content: Quote from: TheAmmoniacal on January 03, 2017, 12:48:16 pmVolume change of mixing?

author: TheAmmoniacal
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 03, 2017, 06:19:47 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on January 03, 2017, 06:15:06 pmYeah. It's rather pedantic though. The problem is written for 13-year olds, and they surely wouldn't be aware of this - but still too early to start giving them misconceptions!Mixing two dissimilar solutions of volume x and y will never give x+y volume.

author: DimitriP
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2017, 07:01:50 pm
content: QuoteSwitzerland in the mid eighties had something similar going. Forcing carreer choice at 14 is (or should be) criminal. It's also underhanded and discusting because the "kids" at 14 don't know what's "out there". You don't get to know everything until you are 16. But you get the point.The various "teaching methods" do seem to be designed to produce "good little workers", more so than before. The only thing schools are sensitive to are student statistics. They are more interested in graduation rates and college acceptance rates than "educating" the students. So the scools would rather have 12 students apply for college and get acccepted ( therefore a 100% acceptance rate) rather than have everyone aplly and only 20% "get in").That's the objective.The rest of it is just the wrong way of getting there.All the parents and students can do is object strenuously and last but not least get their friends to "throw" a couple of tests here and there -all at the same time - since that's what the school is paying attention to.Or we wait for the next wave where the "standards" we'll get changed...again....

author: slicendice
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2017, 07:02:11 pm
content: @TheAmmoniacalSo you mean that if I have 1litre of red colored water and 1litre of blue colored water, I will not get 2litre of purple colored water?Doesn't this depend on the solutions, their surface tension and how they mix together, whether they react or not...etc...

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2017, 07:09:12 pm
content: Quote from: slicendice on January 03, 2017, 07:02:11 pmIt depends on a lot of things, especially how dissimilar the two solutions (or liquids) are. For example, if you mix 1 litre of water with 1 litre of ethanol, you will not get 2 litres of ethanol-water solution.It doesn't depend on surface tension though, since surface tension is a surface phenomenon, not a bulk volume phenomenon.

author: TheAmmoniacal
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 03, 2017, 07:12:25 pm
content: Quote from: slicendice on January 03, 2017, 07:02:11 pmTo the first question; yes, I do mean that. If each solution only contain a drop of food coloring the difference will be negligible, so practically additive - but not really.Aqueous solutions interact with solutes in many complex ways, causing it to expand or contract, changing the density. And when mixing, the solutes will interact with each other and the water.

author: DimitriP
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2017, 08:02:33 pm
content: and now this:http://madworldnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/Screen-Shot-2014-09-29-at-12.20.59-PM.jpg

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2017, 08:36:26 pm
content: Quote from: TheAmmoniacal on January 03, 2017, 07:12:25 pmThanks for the clarification; at first glance I thought you were a bit crazy in your original assertive, but then I remembered the old adage: "always put the acid in the water, not the water in the acid" which brought me the image of the intense reaction when water is thrown in the acid.

author: TheAmmoniacal
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 03, 2017, 08:54:01 pm
content: Quote from: rsjsouza on January 03, 2017, 08:36:26 pmI am crazy, but I will also defend my crazy utterances! Volumetrically; soln A + soln B != soln A+B, just not how the world works. It's not like mass, where mass of A + mass of B == mass A+B.

author: julian1
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2017, 09:22:49 pm
content: QuoteApart from volume, whatever is in solution could also be precipitated out. Also, there will likely be some temporary thermal change due to ionic displacement which will change volume. Also, solution A is specified to only 2 digits of precision, so if the addition answer involved 3 digits it would be not be correct from a scientific reporting convention.The trick for a student who wants to succeed in all this - is to recognize that problems and examples are artificially contrived in a teaching environment. Also to develop a feel for how examinerfs/teachers organize (ie. frame assumptions) in creating the problem sets for specific domain areas.I know I could have done a lot better at school if the contrived nature of teaching had been freely acknowledged. I think a lot of the better students probably developed this intuition on their own. Approaching school as intellectual game (but with a still valuable learning component), rather than becoming cynical at all the rote learning and mechanical problem sets would have been a much more productive strategy as a student.

author: slicendice
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2017, 09:43:39 pm
content: Hehhe, but did the original problem state that solution A was different from solution B? Besides if mixing 2 different solutions together in ml with 3 decimal accuracy, the accuracy of the final solution will not become a difference measured in mls. How can we even be certain the volume of the 2 solutions were exactly measured values? Should we also consider the error factor in this calculation?If adding 2 values with one value having 2 decimals and the other value 3 decimals, the amount of significant numbers after the decimal in the answer can not have 3 or more significant numbers.What if we mixed the 2 solutions and it all evaporates because of a reaction? Then we have no solution left. Should we consider this too?That problem would have clearly stated what the 2 solutions contains if it was important. It would also have contained a reference to some table for the chemical properties if it was relevant. And how the 2 solutions react with each other would also have been stated somewhere if it was important.I think we are over analyzing all these simple problems. We would not even calculate the problem in ml if the chemical properties was a factor. We could give the answer in ml though after all the necessary calculation steps were taken.and...blah...blah...blahNow I shut up about this.

author: Dave
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2017, 10:35:59 pm
content: Quote from: TheAmmoniacal on January 03, 2017, 08:54:01 pmEven that is not necessarily true. What if little Bobby put together 40kg and 30kg of enriched Uranium 235? Haven't thought of that, have you?I don't see why everyone is bitching about exam questions being posed in sentences. Anyone can compute 350/25 like a machine, but can that person apply that knowledge in the real world?If you have to buy 3 crates of beer in the supermarket and you have one coupon for 30% discount on a single crate, how much is the total going to cost you? This is the kind of math problem that the average person encounters in the real life. A calculator isn't going to help you if you don't know what you have to punch in.

author: rs20
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2017, 10:41:56 pm
content: I'm going to maximise the crossfire I collect by sitting on the fence on this question, but I do have some criticisms to raise.Primarily, reading comprehension is an essential skill in many different subjects, not to mention life in general. When I have to share 4 pizzas between 8 friends, a leaflet doesn't fall from the sky with "4/8 = ?" written on it. The ability to do these calculations in isolation istotally useless, unless you're pursuing a PhD in pure mathematics (as mentioned earlier). Since the average person experiences applied maths problems vastly more frequently than pure maths problems, it seems entirely sensible that schools teach applied maths rather than(/in conjunction with) pure maths. I don't mean to be harsh, but surely maths should be taught in a way that makes it as useful and applicable as possible, and contriving the subject to be a reprieve for people with weaker comprehension skills is in stark conflict with this goal.I find it interesting that these applied maths questions are being so heavily criticised on anengineeringforum, by the way! <-- This isn't meant as a criticism by the way, I'm just literally saying that this is not the response I was expecting at all, which is intriguing.QuoteBadly written questions are bad, no question. But one must not throw the baby out with the bath water, it remains reasonable to claim thatwell-writtenapplied maths problems are more appropriate than pure maths problems.QuoteQuoteIt's disappointing to see words like "desperate" and "liberal" in what should appear to be a discussion that could be conducted rationally; but looking past that, I wonder if there is a hint of strawman argument here. As noted above, my first impression is that the aim here is to confer knowledge that is more applicable and useful in the real world, rather than raising* or levelling grades. Conveniently for me, the former is admittedly much more difficult to demonstrate/measure.So since I have no quality statistical evidence in favouroragainst these applied maths questions, I find myself still unconvinced either way. I personally find the applied maths question more engaging and interesting, so I lean that way slightly. But I'm mainly writing this to register how unconvinced I am by the anti-applied-maths arguments proposed thus far. Dave's argument above, among others, are much more compelling to me, even though they rely on a bit of a logical leap that teaching maths in an applied style actually improves adult's ability to apply maths in real life.* Grades are fitted to a bell curve anyway, so obviously that's not going to change, right?

author: DimitriP
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2017, 11:00:17 pm
content: Quoteyou say that, but you probably didn't have to sit down with an 8 year old and try to explain "making 10" when adding 5 + 8. Or wonder what the teacher spend time explaining in class since the 8 year old has no idea what you are talking about.

author: The Soulman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2017, 11:23:26 pm
content: Quote from: rob77 on January 03, 2017, 12:42:24 pmNo not stupid but just mad because I didn't simply crunch the numbers as that was the intention, she knew I could do it easily as I mostly scored A+ (or 10's in dutch) on all mathematics tests.

author: Buriedcode
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2017, 11:57:05 pm
content: Whilst the topic may have changed over the replies, I can see why Mathematics education no longer focuses on 'pure' maths. The ability to do mental arithmetic is handy in every day life (so the argument by some that we don't need to do it, just use calculators is void) it is by no means the 'difficult' part of maths that I think should be the focus of education... after all we *do* have calculators that can do the menial work, its just students should 'graduate' to using it, by fully understanding the underlying principles, and be able to do it 'pen 'n' paper' style.Some are excellent at quick mental arithmetic, addition, subtraction, multiplication and division (the last two are where awareness of fractions come in handy). But formulating"real world" situations/problems to an equation that can be calculated is possibly more important. I have known people who are excellent at dealing with raw numbers, but become easily confused and fall apart when the problem isn't presented as neatly printed numbers. Whilst this isn't pure maths it is theapplicationof mathematics, a skill that without which, being a human calculator is only useful at a "Rainman" convention, or being an accountant during a power-cut.Although I disagree with IQ tests being a measure of general intelligence (more a measure of education level - for which is was originally designed for) many questions in these tests are in fact 'wordy' problems that are to see how the test subject can convert the ideas into an equation which can be manipulated, providing new insight. I don't consider these purely mathematical questions, but they tend to be more practical, and therefore, arguably more 'useful' in the real world.A common complaint I heard in school was 'when am I ever going to use this if I don't become an engineer, doctor, or accountant?' for things like trigonometry, boolean logic, or even algebra. But at that level (in the UK, <16 years old) it is just as much about showing that one can absorb information/idea's and apply them, rather than the value in the subject itself. The broader the range the better as these skills are more general and will carry over into almost any vocation.I'll admit I have seen some shocking maths questions in my education (we hadthreesyllabus changes in school, two of which were dumped after a year), and more commonly, in the past 5 years (news paper articles showing mistakes in questions). But the fact there are no longer just questions just on fractions, multiplication, trig etc.. is, I think, a good thing. The OP is right in that it does seem to punish those who aren't so apt at language comprehension and so one could argue they're no longer being tested on 'just maths', but that is all the more reason to include such questions - providing they are actually given the correct answer and shown where they went wrong, and improve on that skill (which is the basis of learning).Whether or not that has its place under the title 'Mathematics'.. where-else could it go? Subjects break up the world into different areas with neat boundaries, but the real world isn't so neat, and there will always be cross over.

author: rs20
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 04, 2017, 12:27:21 am
content: Quote from: DimitriP on January 03, 2017, 11:00:17 pmI agree that an eight-year olds should be able to compute 5+8, but that seems to be a completely orthogonal concern to whether exam questions are asked in an applied or pure style?

author: timb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 04, 2017, 01:33:17 am
content: Do they still teach multiplication tables in school? Man, I *hated* that with a passion. I actually asked my teacher once, "You just taught us how to multiply, so why do I have to memorize a huge table of answers if I know how to solve the problems?!"She couldn't give me an answer. So, I absolutely refused to learn them, which forced me to become *very* quick at doing multiplication in my head.I also had a terrible time with division in elementary school. Actually, it wasn't so much the concept itself as it was the amount of homework involving it we were given. I'd spend 8 hours at school and then have another 6 hours of homework, 3 hours of which were these complicated fractional division problems.I grew to absolutely resent math because of the way I was taught. Perhaps if I'd actually had some real world problems to solve it might have been a lot less frustrating for me.

author: rrinker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 04, 2017, 01:43:27 am
content: That's part of why I hate pure memorization crap. When I was learning the multiplication tables in elementary school (over 40 years ago..yikes!), I was literally in tears trying to memorize it all. But I got over that, once I figured out how to do the calculation not memorize the tables. I'm still pretty good up to basic calculus. Algebra I actually loved - I was one of about 10 who took an EXTRA math class in high school called Theory of Equations.Compare to my oldest, who at 7-8 years of age you could give him any pair of 2 digit numbers and he could multiply them in his head. Ultimately though he decided that further education was not of much interest, though he has taken some courses in web design and other computer related things.

author: Tinkerer
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 04, 2017, 01:46:28 am
content: I would propose that perhaps math should be split between pure math and applied math. People agree with one or the other, but different people are good at one or the other so perhaps they should simply be separate and based on what a person is good at is which one they can focus on taking. Just a thought, there would still be overlap, but at least then you arnt blurring the lines for people who are good at math, but just not one particular way. Perhaps a mix at the start, split them in the middle, and then mix them at the end again. Just a wild idea.

author: Spikee
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 04, 2017, 02:11:19 am
content: Quote from: Kjelt on January 03, 2017, 01:39:42 pmI can tell my experience about this.According to the CITO test I had to go to VMBO which would have been way to easy for me.I liked practical things but did not know yet what I wanted to do at the age of 11-12. Visitedsome VMBO schools but nothing really impressed me. Also the reputation for VMBO is bad.Generally lower class so to say and fights / shittly lessons low quality.(my brother had the same with his CITO test but my parents did not agree and put him in HAVO instead, he now has his masters at one of the big uni's without any issue at all).anyway my mom wants the best for me so she reached out to her network of friends and family to see what other possibilities there are.That's how we found out of the "Belgian route". Basically just go to school in Belgium for 6 years , after that you can go directly to a university in the Netherlands or in other places. (the school system in Belgium for "TSO" is strict but awesome by the way). The school was not far from the border, there were more dutch people in the school than Belgium students. After TSO I went to uni of applied sciences in the Netherlands without any issue or any tests at all.Doing the VMBO route I would have to spend another 6-12 extra YEARS to do the same! And it has a bunch of roadblocks in the way.This is why the system sucks. You just not allowed to give it a try. If you fail you know that it is not destined for you, but if you succeed a world of opportunities open.I know people where the parents did not care enough and they are not in good places right now. And they had so much potential.When I have kids of my own getting good education for them will be one of the biggest challenge in my mind.

author: rs20
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 04, 2017, 02:12:36 am
content: Quote from: Tinkerer on January 04, 2017, 01:46:28 amDo you mean as separate subjects students could elect to take? I don't think that makes much sense, statistics and calculus stand independently because there are many and distinct jobs that make use of those. But choosing pure maths over applied would set you on a pretty terrible path for any job other than maths professor... (Which is a good and valuable job, but vastly more specific than "engineer", "accountant", or "analyst".)

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 04, 2017, 02:15:29 am
content: Quote from: Kjelt on January 03, 2017, 10:24:43 amThe second type of question is much better to separate students, testing isn't about scoring 100% and everyone feeling good, but its a tool to rank students and understand what they understand. What has shifted from your understanding of maths education is that it is necessary for people to be able to apply maths, not just put the right answer in the box through pattern recognition (yes it happens).Quote from: Kjelt on January 03, 2017, 10:24:43 amThis is where it gets more complicated, you have a bad teacher. The range of possible answers to this question could all be marked fully correct when the student justifies their answer, in the answer, not after the fact. What is wrong is just putting a numerical answer to the long form question.But if the teacher is just marking against their "approved" answer sheet then you've found the problem, the question as written has multiple answers but they all require some form of justification to explain the missing information that was assumed.As above, it might be worthwhile finding another school (or school system) that better suits your child's learning.

author: slicendice
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 04, 2017, 07:30:57 am
content: During my school times I was very often wondering, why on earth we had so much pure math and very little of applied math. Made no sense to me, still does not make any sense. Why keep crunching pure numbers day in day out, when there is not enough teaching where those formulas could be applied? 90% of all math we were taught in school got thrown out of the window, because no-one understood where and how to use those formulas, or even create own derived formulas.It happens that my gut feeling was right. 25 years later we have a lot more of comprehension tests in math education, and first 2 years in school the young students don't calculate a single number, but instead learn how to identify logical/mathematical problems based on shapes and patterns. This type of education helps a lot when starting to solve actual math problems later on. It also helps in other education, like physics, chemistry and computer science, just to name a few.One could memorize every single formula there is taught in math, and also memorize how to calculate each one, but if one does not have any kind of understanding of how the formulas work, why they work and where they come from, they are totally useless.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 04, 2017, 08:14:38 am
content: Ok a lot of you state that math should be about how to apply it and these questions will test that, which is fair IMO.My counterquestion is then why don't they teach this apllied math in the lessons and homework ?I have seen my kids homework and they are 90% of the : what is 34+6 = ? stuff. Probably easy to check for the teachersIt is hard to explain to non parents, or parents with kids that score good grades what it is like to have your stepson crying in bed because he doesn't feel "good enough" or doesn't want to go to that "terrible place" called school for a test the next day.You can positively "enforce" him as much as you wish if he gets a bad grade back from school, it is gone.We started lot of years ago already to stimulate for him to read more books and magazines after school which is pretty hard these days with ipads and internet. Books do not have the attraction anymore they once had in the past century.

author: slicendice
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 04, 2017, 08:41:01 am
content: Quote from: wilfred on January 04, 2017, 08:08:22 amYes, you understand how to but not where to or when to! Big difference! Sometimes there are multiple paths to same solution, but if you have no idea how to even get started, you really don't have much use of the knowledge how to actually calculate the result. A calculator can solve the equation for you once you understand the problem domain. And you can even double check using different algorithms. But if you don't understand the question you can never solve the problem. Simple really!

author: slicendice
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 04, 2017, 08:54:47 am
content: Maybe I should clarify what I meant when I stated that we had too much pure math in school. What I tried to say is that the amount of just pure calculations relative to the amount of problems (text based problems/use case scenarios) was wrong.Repetition is important, but it makes no sense to calculate same formulas day in day out with different numbers, when you already know and understand how the numbers work in the formula.Applied math is really important, that is where you actually start making connections between the problem and all the formulas you have been using while learning how to crunch numbers.

author: lem_ix
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 04, 2017, 11:07:25 am
content: Never had issues with math but I did find such problems annoying, poorly written and full of assumptions. Had to reread to figure out which "common sense" assumption was made. Keep your literature out of my maths

author: senso
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 04, 2017, 01:08:54 pm
content: Elementary?We got questions like that in university!...That, coupled with loose terms/definitions, with multiple choice answer where no answer was correct nor incorrect, just different levels of more or less correct than the others, fun fun fun..Or programming asm, c and java with paper and pencil..Or math tests with 4 questions and they where all dependant on the one before, so, you get the first one wrong, and you had a nice round zero.Or one class is dependant on slapping 16 bits of address lines and 8 bits of data lines into two breadboards and using old/worn/plain out burned 74 logic to do address decoding, input, output and peripherals talking to a rusting 80186 dev board(in 2010-2011), then your board as sometimes works and sometimes not, the professor just says to rebuild it(twice...) only to find out 2 weeks before the end of the semester that I had a 74hc buffer than would randomly lock one, and only one of its outputs to 0, failed that one because I never knew if it was my code acting up or the board acting up, fun fun fun..There is so much wrong with teaching in this world..

author: m98
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 04, 2017, 01:46:38 pm
content: Quote from: TheAmmoniacal on January 03, 2017, 06:19:47 pmBut actually, since the precision of the given units is just down to 1 uL, the question simply assumes that the volume change is neglectable within this precision. Not too unreasonable, because for many solutions, there isn't even a volume contraction or just a very small one. Especially when not only dealing with homogeneous solutions but dispersions.Also, with most people here being engineers, imagine you had to design some kind of chemistry device that mixes two further unspecified solutions of a given volume together. How would you calculate the needed minimum volume for the mixing container?What I actually want to say, sure you could be pedantic or intentionally misunderstand a question because it's loosely defined. But that's rather far from reality, try to play that game with your boss or customer and you'll understand why. School is there to prepare people for real life and real problems, and not for the ivory towers of academic elitism. Text comprehension and the ability to make reasonable assumptions about a problem of any subject are simply essential for higher education and many professions, it would be negligent not to promote them from early on.

author: slicendice
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 04, 2017, 01:54:33 pm
content: Very nicely said! So true!

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 04, 2017, 02:19:44 pm
content: Quote from: timb on January 04, 2017, 01:33:17 amYour answer got me thinking. I can only assume that by "doing multiplication in my head" you mean computing the repeated sum. Which is very fast for 2x3, not so much so for 12x12. Following that thread I thought of how computations of trig functions are done in microcontrollers and computers. Some use a table look up. Some compute "enough" terms of the series definition to achieve the desired accuracy. Others use other computational tricks.Lookup is generally faster, but pays a penalty in memory resources. The implemented solution is a trade between available resources and speed requirements, with the result modified by the knowledge of available algorithms in the designer.The implications of this for this thread involve the differences in available resources between people. Some rare people have eidetic memories, the ability to instantly memorize "everything". An effectively infinite and easy to use resource. Some have no capability no capability to memorize at all. The rest of us are scattered through that range, with a distribution that I have no insight into. Clearly the optimum method will be different for each of us, and no single educational method will be perfect for everyone.While I am not aware of evidence that the ability to generalize and apply memorized information to specific problems varies as widely as the innate ability to memorize, I suspect it is so, with similar implications to the best methods of teaching and also to the outcome of the best possible education.An interesting question with limited available data is the degree to which innate capability in these and other regimes can be enhanced through practice and training.

author: Watth
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 04, 2017, 02:50:01 pm
content: (N.B. I'm currently sick, my English might be a little borked)Oooh, an education thread!I do hold grudge against FrenchÉducation nationale. The thing being that, like in many countries,they don't know how to deal with students that are not in the "normal" brackets. I for one was later (i.e. way after I got out of school) diagnosed as an intellectually precocious child" (my translation, not guaranteed). That means there are cases for whom teachers don't know how to deal with. They can't and/or don't want to go further than "that kid has weird scores, therefore they doesn't work as hard as they should".It's true that contextualizing the question (with a background story) makes the test evaluate reading comprehension skills also. We could call it applied mathematics. Which is fine and dandy, since most real life math problems start by evaluating the situation and sort of modelling what's at stake.That is only if the question is correctly/exhaustively laid down. Now 'ere's you problem.If the question is too vague you have to do the intellectual dance of interpreting the question: this test rewards students that interpret the question the same way the text author did. Which is that you might not be right, but it's OK if you'rethe correct kind of wrong(pending TM).If you don't know what kind of wrong you should be, you have to lose time by evaluating every possible scenarii. You're providing more work, but aren't guaranteed to be rewarded.In a perfect world, you should get points for answering "This question is stupid, come back when you've figured out what your problem is".

author: hans
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 04, 2017, 04:10:07 pm
content: Quote from: Kjelt on January 03, 2017, 01:39:42 pmI suffered from this problem as well. I worked my way up from 'low' and am now in master's bridging programme, doing quite well actually.I started low primarily due to my language interests/capabilities, although I'm not dyslectic but have had other language development problems.Plain 'boring' math problems were never a problem. In 7th grade (1 before last) I finished the 8th grade math book. In 8th grade I got a book from another publisher just to keep me occupied.I still hate these 'math problem buried in the text' problems, although I'm in an engineering course. But in particular the ones that leave room for own interpretation.Sadly however there are a few issues with starting out low:Ever looked into a low level education class? No offense to anyone, but most of these classes are a mess. In general hard work and focus is not rewarded. In my experience any attempt at this will be punished socially.Many teachers are probably burned out somewhere near October, or arrived at station Don't Care. Especially in technician-orientated classes; I had 1 English teacher in my secondary school that quit when she heard she got another technical class next year.There are chances to jump up (or down..) in education level. In particular in the 1st & 2nd grades of secondary school, and upon graduation (although this takes 1 year extra).This is somewhat OK. But you still miss on a lot of fundamental theory which you won't catch up. In addition it also demands other courses like french, german, history, etc. Potentially dragging down to brilliant engineers & scientists with (relatively) poor language skills.I figured this also after I jumped low > mid, and went to university of applied sciences instead. I rather learn something tailored & applicable to me, than grind away 2 more years at those courses.Although you can make jumps in level, it faces the problem that you enter a different education system & approach. I've seen fellow students that couldn't handle the large jump in level, yet intellectually I had the impression they could. But it could be the way of analysis, efficient learning and discipline to study each week and organization instead of the "student syndrome". I think it's quite likely these students suffer from this, because lower levels probably never provided enough challenge.

author: slicendice
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 04, 2017, 04:57:30 pm
content: Quote from: hans on January 04, 2017, 04:10:07 pmI totally agree. My daughter knew how to read when she was 5, read books with hundreds of pages before she went to school. Overall her first 6 years were a walk in the park and she never got challenged enough. Now shes at 7th grade and the level of challenge jumped up drastically. Now she has some difficulties comprehending certain parts in the education, and she does not understand how much she must work to be "as good as" in 6th grade and below. This has become a problem for us.

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 05, 2017, 03:50:48 am
content: Quote from: timb on January 04, 2017, 01:33:17 amAnd when the loss has been disclosed,the Secret Service say:It must have been Macavity!- but he's a mile away.You'll be sure to find him resting,or a-licking of his thumbs,or engaged in doing complicated long divisions sums.

author: rrinker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 05, 2017, 01:55:15 pm
content: Quote from: Kjelt on January 04, 2017, 08:14:38 amThe reading is the real issue. I am a voracious reader and have been all my life - generally ahead of my level in school. I would rather read than play video games. I have an ipad which I use 99% of the time to read books on (since I can carry hundreds of books in one small device). Neither of my kids is much of a reader. The younger one reads more than the older one, but both would rather do other things. I am one of those who becomes completely immersed in the world of a good book and if I didn't have to do pesky things like go to work to earn money I would love to just read, almost non-stop.

author: Watth
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 05, 2017, 03:16:16 pm
content: Quote from: Kjelt on January 04, 2017, 08:14:38 amPlain math (such as this example of addition) is only a part of the skills needed for problem solving, but still have to be evaluated :/And, indeed, why are there not short simple exercises about reading comprehension? Give a statement, ask if it implies A and/or B. A bit like driving tests: the posted sspeed limits, can I drive A. at 90km/h B. at 80km/h. Answer correct if you say yes for AandB.Quote from: Kjelt on January 04, 2017, 08:14:38 amOh the memories!Quote from: Kjelt on January 04, 2017, 08:14:38 amThe hard part is finding out what you are expected to do.Karel's apples is quite an example; especially considering the teacher's lack of criticism of the problem.Verbal communication (such as laying the problem with the little backstory) has a lot of implicit elements (kids who don't like apples don't get apples? Why? [insert starving kids in Africa joke], Karel is such a good guy he doesn't keep some for himself? WTH!), which teachers obviously underestimate.This kind of education is still going because works with the majority. But if you're prone to overthinking the problem, you're screwed.It seems teachers fail to explain what they really expect from the students, with examples; and how to deal with misunderstanding.There stands another problem with public education: if the teacher is dumb, you have little to no recourse.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 05, 2017, 04:07:10 pm
content: Well I am not saying that the teachers are dumb, although a few years back (2006 see article) there was this big scandal that the majority of the elementary school teachers in their first year of college would score less on a simple math test than the kids they would have to teachMost elementary school teachers here are nowadays women (about 87%1) and a lot of them are not interested in math but only to interact with the children.http://www.trouw.nl/tr/nl/4324/Nieuws/article/detail/1447178/2006/01/02/Leerkrachten-in-spe-kunnen-niet-rekenen.dhtml1https://www.google.nl/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwiT55CQsqvRAhWHCcAKHaHfA-0QFggiMAE&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.cbs.nl%2F-%2Fmedia%2F_pdf%2F2016%2F40%2Fsteeds-meer-vrouwen-in-het-onderwijs.pdf&usg=AFQjCNGVyvRNWzIbMr3lPOSvONkFWRGUsw&sig2=j0udSzxTRzuAX24iofopvg

author: slicendice
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 05, 2017, 04:28:09 pm
content: HAHAH, that is crazy! A teacher should always be at least one step above in knowledge compared to whatever he/she teach.

author: Tepe
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 05, 2017, 04:57:43 pm
content: Quote from: slicendice on January 03, 2017, 09:43:39 pmImportant point. Mix a volumexof water with a volumeyof ethanol and the resulting volume of the mix will be less thanx+y.

author: slicendice
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 05, 2017, 07:05:56 pm
content: Quote from: Tepe on January 05, 2017, 04:57:43 pmYes, for a 1:1 mix of water and ethanol the final volume will be about 3% less than you had in total while the 2 liquids were in their own bowls. But the question never stated that the 2 solutions were water and ethanol. As a matter of fact water nor ethanol is not a solution, it's a liquid, you must add something to it for it to become a solution.Definition of a solution:In chemistry, a solution is a homogeneous mixture composed of two or more substances. In such a mixture, a solute is a substance dissolved in another substance, known as a solvent.What if the 2 solutions were orange juice and apple juice? How do you solve that? And did the question state that the 2 solutions were made of oranges and apples?We are barking at the wrong tree here.Yes I agree that sometimes some math problems can be a bit difficult to make sense of, but usually the problems are based on the math formulas you have just been taught in class. What I mean is that if you have just been taught trigonometry in class, the test question will not ask you to solve a problem using statistical probabilities or fourier transform.

author: rrinker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2017, 01:53:27 am
content: Quote from: slicendice on January 05, 2017, 04:28:09 pmSHOULD. LOL, but when I took the computer science class in high school, on like the first day I asked to borrow a copy of the manual (it was FORTRAN on Apple II's) which I then read cover to cover. Part way through the year we got to the part where we needed to create and read/write from data files on disk. The teacher had me come in one morning before home room to show her how to do it. And then later the same day had the nerve to chastise me for not paying attention to her lecture - on the subject *I* had just taught her. I was too introverted back then to stand up for myself, but it could have been hugely embarrassing for her.

author: slicendice
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2017, 09:21:52 am
content: @rrinkerLol, I have had similar experience when I was studying programming. Many of us student's taught our teacher, not the other way around, as it should be. Totally useless courses.

author: SpaceCow
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2017, 10:34:40 am
content: When I was in school, we called these "story problems." Sure, some of them were and are poorly written. Most of them are not. Honestly, I think it is just as important to be able to do them. Your child having difficulty at solving them does not warrant an upheaval of the educational system. And, guess what, in real life there will be lots of poorly worded questions. I am going out on a limb here, but it's a valid point. One can easily argue that learning to understand what the writer is trying to communicate in the problem is a very useful and valuable trait, as people tend to communicate in less than optimal ways.I was the opposite. I sucked royally at math but I was great at reading. Still am that way. I suppose it's odd that I'm interested in engineering, then (although I am NOT an engineer). Is anyone else here like that?

author: eugenenine
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2017, 12:42:31 pm
content: Quote from: slicendice on January 05, 2017, 04:28:09 pmMust be where the old saying "if you can't do, teach" comes fromThe better teachers I had (Electronics at the vocational center and some college professors) were the ones who worked a job and then retired/quit from it and taught. They all had a degree in something other than teaching. The worst teachers all had degrees in teaching, most of them in physical education and fell back on their minor of science, English, history, etc because there weren't enough PE jobs.The thread about the equipment from the closed ITTTech school diverted into a bash profit education but despite the downsides the profit college I graduated I still got a better education than the public one.Our public education has become an even bigger in the last few years where the teachers can only follow the script from the national level dictating how they teach, there is no room for passion or creativity.

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2017, 01:44:11 pm
content: I've been doing some reading about education in the Netherlands and though it's not going to be helpful at this late a stage, I do note that there is now competition for the new math approach and the CITO toets. Majorly the Reken Zeker books/method is a throw back to old school arithmetic and the IEP eindtoets prides itself on being less wordy in the math sections.Caveat emptor, more true in education than ever ... thanks to the progressives (liberal was indeed not the word I should have picked). They throw out the baby with the bathwater a little too easily.

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2017, 09:12:07 pm
content: Quote from: eugenenine on January 06, 2017, 12:42:31 pmThe full version of that, told to me by my deceased mate Fred Wedlock, was:Them as can't do, teach.Them as can't teach, teach teachers.Them as can't teach teachers become Education Officers.

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2017, 09:19:14 pm
content: Quote from: Marco on January 06, 2017, 01:44:11 pmMarco, it'd help the rest of us who aren't Nederlanders to follow this if you explained your terms.

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2017, 09:50:00 pm
content: CITO toets was the traditional primary school national exam, which together with the teacher advice determined what secondary education stream you were put in.Now there's competition and the schools can pick from multiple tests.

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 07, 2017, 06:51:13 am
content: Quote from: Kjelt on January 03, 2017, 10:24:43 amKjelt,I understand your frustration. When I first begun helping my kid (way back), I did not understand the progression then. I had a hard time figuring out what was important then. Now my kid is done with that. So, here is my opinion.First, where do I get my ideas:Before common core in the USA, it was State dependent which grade students are expected to accomplish whatever skill. So, I searched for other gauges.Johns Hopkins University’s Center for Talented Youth (CTY)has on line courses. SinceCTY is international, so their curriculum crosses the USA’s states boundary and international. I thought it was (2008) a good gauge to use as I helped my kid. Back then,they listed course curriculum in good detail. With common core's lowest common denominator mindset, I am not sure if CTY also lowered itself, but I imagine CTY is still agood place to start.Regard the skills you cited:It is themechanics of arithmeticand then the skill to "layout the problem." Laying out the problem is theconversion ofword-sentenceintomathematical-sentence."2+4=?" is really practicing the mechanics of arithmetic. As the student begin to understand the mechanics of arithmetic, the skill to convert words into mathematical sentence begins."James has 3 apples and he is given 2 more. How many apples does James have?" To convert that into "3+2=?" is the conversion of word-sentence into a mathematical-sentence. You can google search "mathematical-sentence" and you will find many discussions of it.WithCTY Accelerated 5th grade math (on line course), the student should have already mastered the mechanics of multiplication, division, addition, and subtraction. They should be able to do those for numbers of any magnitude (size of paper to write on not withstanding).[EDIT: failed to paste an important sentence by mistake]In this course, with mechanics in control, they start to get into how to convert word sentence into mathematical sentence.[end edit]By7th grade, pre-algebra: "Mary is twice Jane's age two years ago. Now, Mary is 3 years older than Jane. What are Mary's and Jane's ages now?" Student who is ready for algebra should be able to convert the words intomathematical sentence:Let M be Mary's age now and let J be Jane's age now(M-2)=2(J-2)M-3=JSolve for M and JThe mechanics is usually easierto do for most. The challenges come in when they have to "lay out the problem" themselves. The skill to "lay out problem" is very distinct from the mechanics of doing the arithmetic, but both are necessary.Naming confusion:Since we are talking what to learn in what grade... There is some clarification needed. You said your step son just finished elementary school and heading to high school. In the USA, elementary is up to 5th grade. 6th grade to 8th grade would be middle-school (was called junior high) and 9-12 is high school.I assume you mean he is finishing 5th and ready for junior high. CTY would expect him to have skills in converting word sentence into mathematical sentence upon finishing 5th.

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 07, 2017, 07:09:39 am
content: Quote from: eugenenine on January 03, 2017, 02:54:05 pmThat is the trouble with what you described is "everyday math", everyday math is the approach common core takes. If you are going to help your daughter, until common core disappears, these two videos may help you understand their approach and thus deal with it better.This one shows the everyday math methods of calculation (may drive you nuts)This one talks about common core/everyday math in general and the problem that it is.

author: Nerull
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 07, 2017, 07:13:10 am
content: The first day of my first calculus class, the professor talked about memorization vs understanding - and stated that if you don't understand the math being used - if you can't look at a problem at decide, on your own, which methods you should use to solve it without them being handed to you - you don't belong there and you will fail.Thinking out a problem is a required skill in mathematics. The world doesn't consist entirely of single step a+b=c format problems.Teaching that skill earlier might keep a student from getting lost later.

author: Nerull
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 07, 2017, 07:15:14 am
content: It's always kind of funny to see "OMG THEY'RE TEACHING MATH DIFFERENTLY THAN I REMEMBER" reactions.This is one of my favorite:(Yes, he's mocking the way you learned math - which I'm sure you feel is the superior way.).

author: DimitriP
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 07, 2017, 07:28:14 am
content: Quote

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 07, 2017, 07:43:38 am
content: Quote from: Nerull on January 07, 2017, 07:15:14 amWhile mocking is fun and funny but it missed the important issue. In the video timemark 1:06, the author said "The important thing is understanding what you are doing rather than to get the right answer."That is the most important statement the author made about this entire mindset. This mindset is no different than the "we have to de-colonialize the colonial science" mindset. Even if they don't know how to do it, it is the themunderstanding how they got there(with wrong answer), and thatthey triedthat matters. This is exactly what "de-colonialize science" that they were talking about means.South Africa Cape Town University was the home of the first successful heart transplant.With their de-colonialize science mindset, the only progress they made was negative. (recall the eliminating science thread here not so long ago.)Now they are the last in PISA and all they can say is they improved a lot (by percentage). Yeah, it is easy to double your score if you last scored very low.EDIT: added the words in blue. Come might not have seen the "Cape Town University wanting to eliminate colonial science" thread.

author: DimitriP
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 07, 2017, 07:46:36 am
content: QuoteEveryday math, creates everyday people with everyday lives.yeah...just what everyone dreams of...Unless you live in <insert small politically unstable country here> but there it's a good day when the school is still standing and the students are all alive the following day.

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 07, 2017, 08:08:30 am
content: Quote from: DimitriP on January 07, 2017, 07:46:36 amI am beginning to think you don't like de-colonialized arithmetic!Ahem, back to being serious... Common core, if it is just a standard of minimum, would not be so bad. The trouble is it isthe ceiling rather than the floor, and it also became a curriculum and a method. I would not have objected to a standard that defines what students must learned at the minimum.So, not only must you be able to do 2x4=8, you have to do it their way!Before everyday math was part of common core, a pre-K classmate of my kid ran into that issue. Her parent got to a point where she had a lawyer involved. So, traditional column multiplication was accepted as correct. Every now and again, she had to call the lawyer again for another letter, but her kid learned how to do arithmetic and gets the right answer.The school district next to me, parents fought for years to remove everyday math. After 10 years (according to them), they finally did, they celebrated. But, less than a handful of years later, it roared back as common core…I sure am glad learning arithmetic is now history for my kid.

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 07, 2017, 08:29:00 am
content: Quote from: Nerull on January 07, 2017, 07:13:10 amMost of the kids are more likely to be confronted with simple arithmetic on the job than mathematics though. The high end of the bell curve will always be able to generalize, but I don't think the average kids are able to distil the unstructured mess of new math into something they can efficiently use.It's pretty much undeniable that schools teaching old math through drills and table memorization a couple decades ago produced people better able to use day to day arithmetic than those being taught new math today. I for one think the methodology is a big part of that (although the diminishing quality of teachers and parenting obviously also plays a role).

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 07, 2017, 09:39:01 am
content: Quote from: Rick Law on January 07, 2017, 07:43:38 amThey also want to massage the stats as well, to appear better. Proudly proclaim over 70% passed Gr12 this last year, but omitted the small details that the pass mark is now 30% after moderating the results up so 50% pass mark could be achieved, that they only counted those who wrote the exam, leaving out the fact that nearly half of those in the system 2 years ago did not get to GR12, that the entry amount 12 years ago was a lot more.https://mybroadband.co.za/news/general/193650-the-shocking-numbers-the-matric-results-dont-show.html

author: eugenenine
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 07, 2017, 03:22:54 pm
content: Quote from: Rick Law on January 07, 2017, 08:08:30 amAnd the above would be marked wrong today.The correct answer is 4 groups of 2 = 8.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 07, 2017, 10:20:18 pm
content: Quote from: Rick Law on January 07, 2017, 07:09:39 amWow, she misses the point and doesn't present a lot of solid examples of why one system is better than the other. Bringing us back to this:Quote from: DimitriP on January 07, 2017, 07:46:36 amSupporting children who want to use different methods to achieve the result is the important part, if a teacher will only accept a single way of framing and formatting the answer then you have found the problem very quickly (and its not the curriculum).

author: eugenenine
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 07, 2017, 10:39:29 pm
content: Quote from: Someone on January 07, 2017, 10:20:18 pmOur teachers no longer have a choice, they have to only accept the common core way or get anther career.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 07, 2017, 10:52:27 pm
content: Quote from: eugenenine on January 07, 2017, 10:39:29 pmHave you not read it?http://www.corestandards.org/Math/Content/5/NBT/Quote from: Core StandardsNowhere is a specific method required, if teachers are requiring (or being forced to require) a specific method then they have not implemented that style of system to their teaching which is the bit everyone should be agreeing on:let the children come up with the answer however they like, as long as its both correct and they explain it.

author: Richard Crowley
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 07, 2017, 11:15:31 pm
content: Quote from: slicendice on January 03, 2017, 02:48:51 pmExactly! Welcome to the Real World.My employer has a rigorous system of internal training and continuous refresh (many courses required to be refreshed annually). And more and more courses are being converted from instructor-led to online training and testing. Partly because of difficulties in finding qualified instructors, and partly because in a global 7x24x365 environment, simply scheduling class sessions is a problem even if you did have qualified instructors.I annually bang my head against the system where the required WBT (web-based training) courses are inane, incomplete, out of date or simply inaccurate. And worse, the required quiz at the end (which you are required to pass with some 80-100% correct) very frequently asks questions that had nothing to do with the content of the course, or where the "correct" answer was different than what the content of the course said.

author: eugenenine
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 08, 2017, 01:33:56 am
content: Quote from: Someone on January 07, 2017, 10:52:27 pmI'm just stating what the teachers tell us when we ask how she can get questions like 2 x4 = 8 wrong. They tell us they are required to teach very specific methods at certain grades. This is why we had to utilize a tutor because we can teach how to get the answer but we can't teach the specific methods.

author: DimitriP
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 08, 2017, 01:58:52 am
content: Quote from: Someone on January 07, 2017, 10:52:27 pm

author: DimitriP
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 08, 2017, 02:16:52 am
content: Quote from: Richard Crowley on January 07, 2017, 11:15:31 pmThere should be a cuttof line where kids stop being kids and start being treated as employees, or recruits.I don't know for sure at what age this should happen. At age 8 it seems too early. At age 14 it still seems too early. To quote my son's kindergarten teacher from 2004 "kindergarten is not all fun and games anymore, it's all about academics".Perhaps it is possible to teach "life" at school. The current focus seems to be to "keep kinds in school" keep them in college and make sure they graduate. "protecting the parents's life savings" by the student moving out of their parents house and getting a job so their parent's don't have to support them any more.Let's not forget common core "opens up a world of "services" to be offered to this "unified market" (from a Bill Gates video on Common core).It's can of worms. Luckily worms don't have that long of a lifespan, so soon it will get changed, improved or morphed into something else...

author: eugenenine
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 08, 2017, 04:14:15 am
content: They defiantly start stressing academics too soon, and they put too much focus on the testing (another 'benefit' of common core). My 8 year old daughter is the happiest person I've ever known but came home one day last year stressed out over the testing. I joined the local 'opt out' group.A lot of parents believe school should school should stick with the three R's and not try to teach life, every kids matures at a different rate and reaches stages of life at different times so when the school tries to teach life its not at the right time. But the schools point of view there are so many parents who don't do their part so the school has to. Too many parents are working long hours to afford the big house and luxury car so raising the kids gets outsourced to the schools and day care.Similar kids learn different things at different rates, the current common core is trying to make them all the same.And I don't completely hate common core, there are some parts of the math that I explained to my kids is carpenter math, the parts where you round up and then subtract the difference is exactly how you figure out where to cut a 2x4 for example.Now there are no more vocational schools, having two years of electronics in high school helped make electronics classes in college easy for me so I could focus on the non-electronics classes that I struggled with but what about kids now that don't fit in the standard box, they won't get that head start.

author: slicendice
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 08, 2017, 09:10:53 am
content: Testing is very important, how else would anybody know at what level the student is? The more often there are tests the better, and returning to an old test after long time is also good when testing how much has already been forgotten.It is really good that schools teach the foundations of life. But if the focus is on getting everybody to become academics, then it's the wrong path.Today there are too many families who only care about careers and materialistic mumbojumbo and forget about what is important in life. I don't even own a car! Why? you might ask. Well it's because I don't need one. If I would have problems getting on time somewhere because I don't have a car, then I would buy one. But the car would be some cheap and safe brand that does the job, not some expensive expansion of my dick (SRY for that) or to just impress or get jaleous friends.The purpose of elementary school is to lay a strong foundation for life and for possible further education. After elementary school some kids just start living life, others go to high school, and some have already plans to go all the way to college. We are all different with different goals.Education with all the tests are important, but there are a lot of improvements to be made in every education system around the globe.

author: eugenenine
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 08, 2017, 03:06:43 pm
content: I didn't say testing wasn't important, but currently they make it too important.Why is it good that schools teach foundations of life? How to they teach the right thing at the right time since every kid is different (hint, they don't they try to teach them all the same thing at the same time which is a pretty big fail)

author: slicendice
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 08, 2017, 03:34:36 pm
content: Maybe you should clarify what you mean regarding foundations of life and that being taught at wrong age. Have any examples? Maybe we are talking about different things here?I'm talking about how to behave in public places, how to behave in the dinner table, how to use a knife and a fork and when to use a spoon, basic pedestrian traffic rules, that you wash your hands after a visit to the toilet...basic stuff really, that many does not teach at home and it is very sad.

author: Quatrerwin
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 19, 2017, 07:01:14 pm
content: Quote from: DimitriP on January 07, 2017, 07:46:36 amEvery time I see that comic, I always think aboutA Mathematician's Lament, which I am a bit surprised to not see in this topic already. It's effectively the same thing if you teach them the multiplication table and expect them to do pure math problems versus a story problem; both are effectively "painting-by-numbers," (explained a bit more in the link). The student's are more regurgitating the more mechanical aspects that any calculator can do rather than the logic and thought process behind it.

author: DimitriP
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 19, 2017, 09:34:13 pm
content: QuoteIt must have not been assigned a Lexilehttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lexileindex, or it's not on any published required or recommended reading lists and it's kept away from the Harry Potter and Diary of a Wimpy kid shelf in the bookstore.

author: Quatrerwin
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 20, 2017, 04:15:37 am
content: Quote from: DimitriP on January 19, 2017, 09:34:13 pmNow there is an idea. Have students read the cat in the hat until high school so they have a solid foundation in reading. At least that's how we effectively did math in my state in the US: to over addition, subtraction, multiplication, and division for years until the student is around 15 years old before introducing any algebra.I should mention that this was many years before common core hit.

author: bson
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 20, 2017, 08:42:03 am
content: Quote from: Alex Nikitin on January 03, 2017, 01:12:21 pmI think the problem is Descartes was never really born, at least in their opinion, and truth is whatever opinion a majority of scientists believe in. But it's only an opinion and sometimes the teachers' union or whoever they trade political favors with have a better opinion.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 20, 2017, 09:39:54 pm
content: Quote from: Quatrerwin on January 20, 2017, 04:15:37 amIn the meantime, in a parallel universe, students are actually solving mathematical problems, instead of dividing three apple with two banana. By the time you get to uni, you can integrate and solve differential equalizations. OK, that is not fair, I've taken the extra math+physics in high school.At uni, they required us to learn from Thomas' Calculus. It supposed to be some kind of a holy grail of mathematics from MIT itself. Guess what, I used my problem solving skills, ditched the book, and went trough 3 semesters with high school mathematics, doing above average grades.It always amused me, that US thinks that their education is something to be proud of. Like the SET or whatever it is called points are actually matter, and anyone not having it must be some kind of a cavemen. And making ranking for the universitys worldwide, using quantitative methods, nobody else cares about.

author: Quatrerwin
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 21, 2017, 12:41:55 am
content: Quote from: NANDBlog on January 20, 2017, 09:39:54 pmEducation in the US really leaves something to be desired. I wasn't really taught the logic behind math until college when there was more emphasis on why it can applied instead of just how you apply it. When I read Lockhart's Lament, it really resonated with me how math is taught over here.

author: bson
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 21, 2017, 09:01:50 pm
content: It's really hard to discuss "education in the U.S." because constitutionally education is a state matter. The federal government provides a bit of funding and sets standards as a prerequisite to receive money, but technically a state can do almost anything it wants if it's willing to forego funding. The overwhelming amount of spending on education in the U.S. is by states and cities, not the federal government. Pre-highschool education tends to be very low standard in mathematics, but many high school programs are quite good given the level of students entering. Here's the track available (though not required of course) for students in the San Francisco Unified School District (CCS = community college, with college credit).http://www.sfusd.edu/en/assets/sfusd-staff/curriculum-and-standards/images/math-freshman-doubling.pdfObviously, if you plan on a pursuing a STEM degree in college (70% of American students continue to college; this is 90% for whites and asians, 50% for black and latinos) you will end up at the bottom right and get into the bottom half. If you plan to pursue a degree in business or marketing related, or such you will be in the top half. If the interest is in the humanities you'd choose a different track entirely (the is a simplified math lite track as well).

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 22, 2017, 03:43:28 am
content: Quote from: bson on January 21, 2017, 09:01:50 pmIt should be obvious that "education in the US" varies on an even finer scale than that. Many decades ago I was on a path much like that described above. The course names sound very good, but the reality for me is that the instructor for the calculus courses was terrible, and what little I got out of those courses was my own doing. It turns out that no math instructor wanted to teach the remedial math courses, and this instructor was rewarded with the AP classes for taking the remedial ones. I am sure the remedial students benefited even less than those of us in the advanced course, but no one seemed to care in either case.So you have to look at each individual school, not just the state, or city, or school district.

author: slicendice
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 22, 2017, 10:11:12 am
content: Because of the "Trump effect" US education system will change a lot in the future, if he's true to his words. But we don't wanna talk politics so let's leave this as it is. :-)

author: Quatrerwin
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 22, 2017, 06:38:43 pm
content: It is true that it is difficult to discuss education in the US. There are always anomalies within the system. For instance, my school was failing in the eyes of my state in terms of math (and all education in general) along with all the other high schools in my hometown, but my state was better then average in terms of education. I have no idea how my old high school would rank nationally.