Used Equipment 101: Taking the Gamble on fleaBay - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: mnementh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2018, 08:48:44 pm
content: Used Equipment 101: Taking the Gamble on fleaBaySo you've got a need for equipment of a certain sort; or maybe you just got to the point where you've decided it's time to get a meter that's a little higher on the food chain than that Harbor Freight "Little Red Box of Damifino". You look at the price of new, and like most of us, you quickly realize that either you need to save up for a couple years to buy name-brand like Fluke or HP, or you have to get something used.If you're a hobbyist like me, even that probably isn't going to be cheap enough; semi-retired, limited income, only so much discretionary funds to go around all your hobbies. Maybe time to look for a fixer-upper?Well, there's no shortage of busted gear on fleaBay, that's for sure. But how do you separate the merely "busted" from the junk that's been tore up from the floor up and THEN put on fleaBay as "untested: As-is" or "powers up: unable to test further"(Hint... these kind of weasel-word descriptions are the FIRST sign you should run, not walk... to the nearest exit)?The answer, as with anything worth doing, is to take your time and do your homework. You CAN minimize the risk, but it takes some detective work.eBay is the world's biggest Flea Market; but unlike shopping the local swap-meet or Thrift Store, You don't have the benefit of being able to hold the item in your hand; fondle it, eyeball the stitching, or to smell and taste it to see that you're getting what's being sold to you. And most importantly, you don't get to look your seller in the eye and gauge whether they're an honest working stiff like yourself or some sleazoid selling crap pieced together from known defective parts.The anonymity of online auctions with their promise of easy money attracts all sorts... and it invites folks to do things they wouldn't normally do, like try to sell stuff they know is garbage instead of throwing it in the dumpster where it belongs. This is human nature; and while you can get mad about it and hate the hucksters, that only spoils YOUR day.When you're traversing the sea of auction goods, the natural self-protective reaction is to be afraid. Fear is good, keep that; but travel light. Forget the hate.Listen to your wary inner voice, but don't succumb to panic. Use it to fuel a healthy cynicism; be critical of every aspect of a listing. THAT is how you can minimize the risk. As important as the item in particular is the seller's past history on fleaBay; you need to make sure you've first been sold on the SELLER, then the item they're selling... not the other way around.Let's take a look at my latest purchase, from eBay vendor express_auctions . First thing most folks will look at is the price, because the bottom line is... well, the bottom line. Second, most shrewd buyers will look at the shipping and go "Holy sh**balls! That's expensive for a 1/2 kilogram meter!" And it kindof is. But the sale price is reasonable given what it is, so we're going to investigate further.First, they have a detailed item description. Not only the item overall, and not just stuff cut/pasted from the manufacturer's product page, but actual condition of the item in particular. Unusual in this auction is that the seller makes a point of including the item serial number; a lot of sellers deliberately obfuscate or simply neglect to include a serial number. You can draw a lot of conclusions about why, but most of them boil down to professionalism, or the lack thereof.One thing you can draw from this is that the seller knows they have proof of ownership. This indicates that as advertised, this seller is in the business of selling this kind of goods, and that they keep an accurate inventory of the gear that passes through their business. This also follows through to the shipping costs. A seller that's in the business doesn't use recycled shipping materials; they pay for cartons and packing material and they pay somebody to pack the goods. This costs money, and they do this regularly, so they have a good idea just how much.The description is straightforward, factual, and doesn't attempt to sell you on the seller (or warn you away from other sellers), only to accurately describe the product, "Warts and all". It details missing parts, and states "Does not work" rather than using simple "Untested" or "Unable to test" weasel wording to suggest that it MIGHT work if you're lucky, give it some TLC, or the TE gods smile upon you, etc."SOLD AS-IS, UNIT DOESN'T WORKUnit has badly corroded and missing battery terminals.Unit is missing fuses, bail/kickstand and screw for battery cover.No further testing was done.Sold AS-IS as shown in photos, for parts or repair. "This is promising, actually. Rather than making the item look like junk, it points to a certain level of professional integrity.Feedback:We appreciate Positive feedback. We leave feedback as soon as we get feedback from you. If you have any problems with the sale, please try to resolve it with us before you leave us a Neutral or Negative.Returns: no returns. "Okay... not only do they post a simple, clear description of the item's condition, they also have a Terms of Sale statement. A lot of vendors will try to hide stuff in the fine print here; and some of it can be cause for concern, like the statement that this vendor doesn't accept returns. In the case of new goods or goods being sold AS GOOD, this is cause for alarm. Even in the case of as-is items, you may find that a vendor tries to hide behind that... but here is where knowing your rights under the eBay buyer's policy will give you some reassurance. Even if a vendor states this, they HAVE TO accept a return for an item that as delivered is considerably different from the item listing, or shows evidence of having been tampered with since the photos in the auction were taken.Also a clear, straightforward policy towards Feedback, which encourages the buyer to resolve first, but no fear-mongery or weasel-wording.THAT, however, is not what interests me most in this statement; what interests me is the statements about shipping:"Shipping Terms: Buyer pays for shipping/packaging for this instrument. International buyers will pay for all shipping charges to your country.* Shipping and handling fees are not refundable under any circumstances. In case of returns buyer is responsible for all shipping fees. (Domestic or International)* Your phone number is required for shipping purposes so please provide your phone number with all correspondence.* Please note that calculated shipping is based on UPS. However, we reserve the right to ship for the same cost via FedEx or other carrier. We prefer to ship by FedEx or UPS.Packaging:We package items in new boxes and foam pack-in-place.And now we see the actual COST of shipping. If they actually ship this way, then the costs are more than justified.The listing then shows numerous well-lit, clear and detailed photos of the item, again, warts and all. Not fuzzy cell-phone pics of just the front.Now this is where my jaundiced eye towards used equipment takes over... overall it looks pretty good. No big chunks missing, lens is clear and without major scratches, and ewwwww... that battery compartment is NASTY. But here's where you have to do some "Deductive reasoning". Okay; the rotten battery contacts show a probable cause of death. But is that the ONLY thing wrong with it?For this, I'm going to concentrate on the first pic, and the last two. Careful inspection indicates no discoloration of the lens underneath, or the LCD itself, or around the lead sockets. If battery electrolyte had gotten this far inside the unit, it would be truly junk; just a plastic shell that might or might not be salvageable.This pic holds a wealth of information; and it may not be obvious what I'm seeing here. When I see rotten battery compartments, the first question I ask myself is "How far inside the unit did the electrolyte leak to?" This fundamentally depends on how it was stored for however long it took for the batteries to leak. if stored on its face, then this meter is most likely junk; that's a lot of rot. So I start looking for evidence that it was NOT stored on its face. Looking at the inside of the battery door, I can see two things: thin cracks, and scratch marks around the remains of a piece of foam. Looking at the other photos, I can see that these cracks go through the unit, and that they are in natural stress points. A picture begins to emerge in my mind of exactly what this meter has been through...Stored in its pouch on its back, possibly in a drawer with a dozen of its brothers in a non-climate-controlled location, batteries fail... as they sit, pooling electrolyte in the foam on the battery door causes them to corrode and "grow", eventually cracking the door. The electrolyte weakens the plastic and forms the classic green crust inside and in the foam, but it also leaks through; similarly damaging and contaminating the leads, tilt bail and rubber lead-holder.The tech opens the pouch to find this heinous mess during triage; if this isn't his first meter from this lot, he's probably wearing rubber gloves. For his own safety he discards everything except what is absolutely needed to sell the meter: pouch, tilt bail, leads and rubber lead thingie all go in the trash. A missing battery door will severely harm the salability of the meter though, so minimal reclamation effort is done to save it; undo the 1/4 turn pops and knock the bottom of the meter on the edge of the bench or garbage can until batteries and all fall into the trash. Maybe one of the pops is weak and breaks at this point. It's possible it was just lost by a prior user, but the fact that the door was held fast enough to crack on both sides makes this less likely. Recover the battery door and scrape all the green crust off, including the foam. Wash the battery door as best you can, then maybe suck particles from the battery compartment with a shop-vac.... ready to take pics.So... what do I see in the pics that tells me this tale? I see discoloration and etching of the plastic on the battery door, but the battery compartment itself is pristine, aside from the corroded battery terminals themselves. Scratches on the inside of the battery door tell me that is where the crust formed and had to be scraped off, so most likely also where the electrolyte pooled. This means the meter was most likely stored on its back. In turn, there is a good chance that the inside of the meter is unharmed; these are built on a single multi-layer PC board... so if it is damaged, the entire meter is suspect.But wait... this is all fine & dandy, but how do I know the meter wasn't previously blown up before it was thrown in the drawer? How do I know it hasn't been dismantled after the fact and reassembled out of known-defective parts, as is common practice on the 'bay these days?I DON'T.I don't KNOW this... but a little more detective work will give me a clue. So I go back to the pics like this one. Careful inspection of the screw heads is one of my favorite clues; particularly black-oxide Philips-head ones like this. Philips-head screws were designed specifically to "cam-out" if someone attempted to over-tighten them; it is very hard to remove them without it being visible in the form of ragged corners on the slots and bare metal. You CAN undo them without it being visible; but it requires a lot of care. Care that the kind of eBayer who'd try to sell a unit made of known-defective parts usually won't take.All screws in the pic of the meter on its side appear unsullied; and the closeup here shows with good clarity that these most likely haven't been molested. Not only that, but the missing fuses allow me to see the main PCB close to the battery compartment. None of the traces are discolored as one would expect of electrolyte infiltration; the PCB is virginal verdant green.Missing fuses, while a bit of a PITA (New ones for this meter cost ~$15/set) aren't necessarily a bad thing; they may mean that a user robbed a dead meter before it was tossed in the drawer, true... but equally likely is that the seller took them out to troubleshoot another meter. And fuses from a known blown-up meter would not be my first choice when trying to troubleshoot another meter in either case.Okay... so I'm reasonably convinced... maybe 70/30... that this meter is probably as described; so I go look at the seller's feedback. In this case, I find a longstanding seller of approx 7 years, with lots of unique, positive feedback going back reasonably steadily to the start date. This indicates a real seller, not a shill storefront. I can see 5 negative feedback, but once I look at the details, I can see that they're very likely due to honest misunderstanding; I don't see evidence of habitual non-responsiveness, and I also see that the seller is reasonably diligent about leaving feedback as stated in his Terms of Sale. I make it a habit to at least skim over 2 or 3 pages of feedback received, AND click on the red negative button to try and understand the negative feedback. Interesting is that early in their career, they switched from plumbing goods to Test Equipment... but that switch appeared to have happened in a specific timeframe and consistent afterwards.The content of the feedback indicates that this seller does indeed pack professionally as advertised, and that items usually ship quickly. That fact pushes the scale to 80/20 in favor; I know I'm still taking a gamble, but in my opinion, it's pretty reasonable. I know I'm paying a premium price for DOA test equipment; but I believe I'm getting what I've been sold, so I click on the button.I've seen some negative feedback regarding this vendor here on eevBlog since I bought; but IMO, after reviewing the entire thread, that was mostly due to misunderstanding and misfortune with logistics rather than deliberate intent to do wrong. I also don't believe that as-is gear can have this sort of issue, as there are no repair parts/logistics involved; only time to pack & ship.I received my meter the Friday following my order; it was shipped 2-day via USPS. Packing, as you can see, was excellent.Just like Oakley sez: "Thermonuclear Protection."Shipped Priority, new carton (NOT recycled), H-Taped top & bottom. Not only H-Taped, but stapled AND double-walled carton. Inside that, the good ol- "Spray-foam Cube of Goodness". Inside THAT, my little pink bundle of joy. And not just a pink wrapper... but a pink anti-static coated bag. And finally.... my DOA baby.It's pretty hard to pack better; clearly these are professionals who didn't cut corners getting my meter here intact. While I wish I could have saved a few dollars, I don't begrudge them a penny spent on shipping. That package would have survived even those guys who chuck it over the fence.After all that buildup, it was almost a letdown to find that the meter was EXACTLY as it was advertised... dead from leaking batteries and entirely unmolested since photos were taken. As soon as I got it in hand I could see that all screws were untouched, and the PCB underneath was indeed pristine around the fuses as seen in the original photo.I'm very pleased to find a used gear vendor that actually does as they claim... post gear direct from triage rather than made-up BS about units they've already cannibalized to fix other units. While I did pay what I consider to be premium price for a DOA meter, I got what I bid on in the form of a straightforward repair, rather than working to get it powered up and then trying to fix a dozen other things wrong because a unit was pieced together from borked parts taken off other units.And the reason I reiterate this is... just before I bought this meter, even with ALL the care I took researching my candidate, just a few weeks ago I DID get one from another vendor that I'm certain was just that: robbed for parts after the photos were put on eBay. I had to dispute, and I even had to deal with retaliatory feedback as a result. Even though this seller had long-standing positive feedback, and the listing passed my best deductive assessment... what arrived was missing screws, fuses and alligators that were shown in the original listing. It was very clear that the meter had been disassembled after the pics of it "sometimes working" and reassembled carelessly. I put it right back in the box and taped it shut until the dispute was settled; and I'm glad I did.I tried to make the tinkering fun last, really I did.I originally was going to just nuke the AAs and go LiPo, but once I opened it up and found an absolutely pristine PCB, I took my time scrubbing the battery compartment and making up coil-spring battery clips from my junk drawer so as to fit in the original slots. But even that only took an hour or so... Aside from fuses, now it needs one plastic 1/4 turn for the battery door, a new tilt stand/bail and the optional probe-holder on the back. All are available on fleaBay as are the original battery clips. All told, those parts add up to another $50 for the plastic parts, and another $60 for all the battery contact clips. (Yeah, that's right... $60; these are pretty much pure unobtanium)(CORRECTION)And that's not including $15 for the fuse set, or probes, which is another $20-120 depending on what probe set you buy. Yes, it's easy to spend a lot fixing up a meter, even once you have it working. I think I want to try printing the plastic parts first.I've been looking since I bid on the first, "not as described" meter for the spare fuses I had from my 87; no luck. Guess I have to suck it up and spend the $15 for a new pair. For now, I'll rob the fuses from another meter and wedge the small one between case and contacts until new ones arrive.Now it's back together and all functions appear nominal compared against my Sperry and Aneng 8002 & 8008. Once I lay my hands on the 16V battery for my voltage reference, I'll check the DC voltage readings against it and some precision resistors I ordered when I ordered fuses.Woohoo!Please, feel free to add any tell-tales you look for to cull the wheat from the chaff... this is just how I analyzed this particular auction, and I'm sure there are lots of other things I missed.Cheers,mnemThis is real life. Of course there will be a test!

author: Zucca
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 20, 2018, 09:26:59 pm
content: My problem I want to buy everything it is cheap and reparable in Ebay without asking myself if I really need it.In this way I have my lab full of boxes....BTW Ebay in USA is very different from Ebay in Europe, yes there is less stuff, but also much less crap bouncing around back and forth.Nice writing I enjoyed it.

author: M4x
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2018, 09:32:23 pm
content: Thank you very much for this interesting write up and the insights of your investigation. I disagree on one point: I think the serial number is something like the "private data" of a product and shouldn't be part of the photos posted online. I understand what you mean regarding ownership. Maybe sending the serial number if someone asks would be a compromise.

author: hendorog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2018, 09:56:07 pm
content: Quote from: M4x on August 20, 2018, 09:32:23 pmSerial numbers can be pretty important for a buyer, so that you know what you are getting - for HP it tells you the year of manufacture for example.It would be a real PITA to have to request them for each item you want to bid on. Since its a PITA for me, it has to be cheap or I'll just pass.Personally I'm not sure what is to be gained by hiding the serial number anyway - with the possible exception of a private seller and your PII can be looked up online using the serial #.

author: coromonadalix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2018, 10:13:15 pm
content: If i sell something on Ebay i show everything, masking the sn is a no go, i want to see the serial before i buy something too, i use it as a proof of purchase.It's too easy to sell something, play in it, take the good part and make it believe its the one you bought ...And the last thing is : you have to know the possibility it may cost you a lot to rebuild ...As an example like the fluke meter shown, bought one 189 model recently from venezuela, looked okay on the pictures, but i did not clearly see the battery compartment, one of the dual battery clip was re soldered in "situ", the rear casing was melted because "they" did not remove the clips ...Bought the rear case 42$ plus shipping, the complete battery clips kit 60$ plus shipping .... plus 190$ for the meter plus shipping ... i'm now at 370$ and the meter is not fully tested ... another 75$ to have it certified and calibrated ... but the front case assembly, the dial, the infrared windows and the display window are perfect, the front panel was never dismantled.Its a big gamble, sometimes it may pay a lotOrdered an lcr meter in Israel, my most expensive Ebay purchase ever made, was listed as not tested, unknown state, but was physically perfect. Very fast shipping, It was a huge surprise to see it perfectly working. I was lucky to find the perfect cables for it ... resold it for the double i've paid.Once again it was an gambling, you win and you loose.

author: Specmaster
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2018, 10:15:58 pm
content: This is an excellent report and you have described to a T just the process that I always try and follow and so f ar with the exception of just 1 case, it has stood me in prime position and just like you, with you minimum of effort have been able to breathe life back in the gear again. I too have made a purchase from this seller and what with the sipping and import duty on it made me stop and really think it through. I had already managed to get myself a Fluke 8840A from another seller who did not know what it was he they were selling, no leads or nothing to to power it up with and was asking almost going rate for it.I was able to negotiate a way better price and went to collect it, in fact I got them down to just £35 for this meter, the case was in good condition and even had the handle with it which so many do not have and are typically around £150 plus, even with suspect displays etc. I got it home, opened it up and checked for any signs of problems, none found and plugged an IEC lead into it and went for broke. It powered up nicely passed self test and everything worked except on AC ranges it displayed "Error 30" which the manual says is missing / not installed AC option 09 (yes that module is an extra) so I had gotten myself a 1st class bench meter with a very washed out display but was still usable, checked it out against my calibration tools and discovered that is still spot on the money.I started to look for a replacement display and also the 09 option for the AC measurements and none around, found a few meters with the option fitted and a good display but they were in the £250+ region so were ruled out. I then spotted this same seller that mnementh mentions and they had shitloads of 8840A and 8840A/AF meters and I found one that has a good display, and the 09 option fitted but has some dents to the metal case but all the plastic parts back and front are in good condition. I took a gamble on this as the display is reading what is a believable value for it to be reading with no leads plugged into it as it has a very high impedance front end and the display can creep upto a volt or two under those conditions.The overall cost of snagging this meter with the shipping etc is around £103 and I figure that there is every chance of getting my meter brought upto a full specification, it already has the GPIB unit fitted, new one coming doesn't, and I also think that with a little effort I might get both meters up and running, albeit one will have a poor display and no GPIB, but it should function perfectly on the DC ranges and resistance which is about 98% of what I measure on my meters, AC is hardly never needed. So with a bit of luck, when this new unit arrives in a few days time, I'll get the results I'm hoping for and if so, then it will still have cost me less then the going rate for a dc only meter and no GPIB option either, so I could end up saying "Winner winner, Chicken Dinner"

author: ModemHead
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2018, 10:30:58 pm
content: Very nice write-up, and good advice. Thanks for posting. For the record, I have also purchased a few items from that same seller, back when they used to toss up almost every non-working Fluke they had for a flat $50, buy-it-now. Timing and luck was required.

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2018, 11:32:46 pm
content: Good writeup.I've had good luck buying used test equipment off Ebay. It seems obvious to me if the item is used (meaning all functions work) the seller would take a picture with the item turnedON- but it's amazing how many don't do that!

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2018, 11:45:20 pm
content: mnementh, so you are the one who bought that meter we were posting about. I would have really liked to have seen the insides of it. Enjoy your new meter.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2018, 12:27:43 am
content: I put express_auctions on my blacklist some time back. They sell a lot of trash that has obviously been picked over for parts to fix other items, and their shipping costs are hugely inflated which is a game I refuse to play even if the total price is not too obscene.

author: mnementh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2018, 02:36:51 am
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on August 20, 2018, 11:45:20 pmThe one located in Spring, TX?Yes, I was the one who bought it the first time, and sent it back when it arrived obviously dismantled and reassembled and parts liberated from it after the photos in the auction were taken. Absolutely no regrets over that decision. Maybe we can ask the winning bidder to post their findings if they frequent eevBlog:v***v(534) $113.50 19 Aug 2018 at 12:04:41PM PDTIf this is you, please let us know how it turned out!Quote from: james_s on August 21, 2018, 12:27:43 amI spent quite some time scouring many of their listings when I was vetting them as a vendor as part of my purchase. Yes, I saw evidence of stuff that had small exterior parts taken off, just like my own 189; which I certainly would expect of them if they're in the business. If that bugs you, then you're in the wrong business yourself. I know why these parts were taken off my meter; they were unusable/contaminated with electrolyte.Other than that, I also saw a lot of what I know from experience... having worked directly with a large e-cycler in San Antonio... of what they referred to as "chunk damage". Protruding corners/knobs/buttons/connectors obviously damaged or chunks of the cabinet/fascia knocked off by someone "chunking" them into the e-cycle collection bin.Other users in the TEA thread I usually hang out in have echoed similar observations and purchase experiences to mine as well; particularly regarding the accuracy of description and the quality of packing, which is second to none.That brings us to your statement regarding their shipping costs... which I've already shown in explicit detail is patently false. They are obviously in the business, and they pack professionally. Unlike the average hobbyist, they do not use recycled packaging and bubble wrap, but rather new double-walled cartons and foam-in-place packing. These materials are NOT cheap; I've done this kind of packaging & shipping. We also used the UPS shipping frontend software to estimate shipping costs, which they explicitly state that they do as well.Yes, it was probably more than is necessary for a ruggedized meter like a 189; you could drop that in a bubble mailer and it would most likely arrive unscathed. Yes, I would have liked to have saved a few dollars on the shipping... but if they pack EVERY item with the care they packed my meter, then I have no complaint whatsoever with what they charge.Honestly, I wish my purchases of new goods from Amazon were packed half as well.I have no idea why you're circulating this FUD... your motivations are your own. But I certainly am pleased with my purchase.I paid premium price for DOA gear from a professional vendor after researching carefully, and I was rewarded with a piece of salvageable equipment that was exactly as described, if needing~$100~$155 worth of parts to make it 100%. It arrived carefully packed in a professional manner which ensured that I didn't have to contend with shipping damage. I really don't feel you can expect any more than that from anybody on eBay.Broken controls, rack handles and connectors are a constant problem with the boat anchors which my fellows in the TEA community enjoy tinkering around with... it's a refreshing change for us to find a vendor that actually packs with protecting heavy AND fragile gear in mind rather than taking the crapshoot of letting insurance handle it.Cheers,mnem*Following-up-ily*

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 21, 2018, 04:32:37 am
content: Highly recommended reading!!!Well done.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2018, 04:53:59 am
content: It's not FUD, it's a perfectly reasonable complaint. I'm not going to pay $150 to ship something when someone else will ship the same item for 1/4th that. I'm not in any business of buying used gear but I have bought quite a lot of gear for myself. I'm simply not willing to pay inflated shipping prices on top of already top dollar broken stuff. The things I'm interested in buying are generally pretty widely available, if I wait long enough one that's in good shape comes along at a price I like and I buy it.

author: hendorog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2018, 05:19:54 am
content: Personally I've found express test prices to be high, and their gear often appears quite beat up. Both of those together are why I have never bought anything from them.However they have stated that they are negotiable, if I found something I wanted I'd be haggling with them.

author: bitseeker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2018, 05:26:41 am
content: That was thoroughly recounted, mnem. Thanks for sharing your experience and thought processes. Every experience is beneficial for building one's hunting and dodging skills while navigating the minefield that is eBay.Quote from: mnementh on August 21, 2018, 02:36:51 amOh, yes this, so much this!

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2018, 07:53:57 am
content: Nice write up and good outcome. I don't mind paying a lot for shipping. That was good packaging. Not had any problems with Amazon to be honest - they have been quite good here. Occasionally I get a stupid sized box around something but that's about it.A point to note on ebay and serial numbers. Watch out for this one. It's important IMHO that the serial is shown. I'll explain why.In 2010 I went to pick up a Tektronix 453 scope from someone, not far from me on the other side of London. This is a 2 hour drive at rush hour however so an effort is required. Got to the guy's place and it was a graveyard for all electrical items basically. When I got there it was packaged up ready for delivery. Suspicious as it was collection only! So I asked to have a look at it which he nervously obliged. Unpacked it, looked the same. Was about to hand over the cash when I noticed the serial number was different. Hmm. So I asked to open it. He nervously obliged again but assumed I was an idiot I think. It was missing the nuvistors and the tunnel diodes and had been futzed with. There were a couple of random TO220 packages in it where there were once transistors sockets too. The picture showed it working off the cal output which is impossible if the nuvistors are missing at least! So when I confronted him, he suggested I didn't know what I was doing and started getting threatening telling me to hand over the money or he'd call the police and say I was stealing from him. Well nice guy so I said impolitely "No way am I taking this. It's a different item. Literally get fucked" and walked off, got home and left negative feedback. He disputed this with ebay, I got a non paying bidder strike and his negative feedback was removed bringing him back up to 100%Thus the feedback rating isn't worth shit. Check the serial numbers.

author: Specmaster
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2018, 08:02:17 am
content: Yes I agree, there are some real sharks in the swim as well and with a less well informed buyer he would have got away with that scam. It wasn't our mutual flogger in Leatherhead was it by any chance?

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2018, 08:05:58 am
content: No he's relatively ok in comparison. This was a guy in Romford. Unfortunately I can't remember his ebay username or I'd shitpost it everywhere.

author: Specmaster
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2018, 08:16:23 am
content: The other thing to look out for where the seller claims it works OK but don't have any photos of it working and or claim that they don't know how to use it so can't show it working when all they need to do is press the power button and photograph the results? That is what that numpty in Leatherhead was doing with his scopesThere's a seller on at the moment with an Iwatsu SS5710 asking for just shy of £200 for it, says it works, no photos to support it, been listed twice so far with no takers, doesn't know how to use it he says and does not know the first thing about either. Its a 60MHz CRO but its a 4 channel one FFS

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2018, 08:49:40 am
content: Quote from: mnementh on August 20, 2018, 08:48:44 pm$23? I'd be like, "Damn, that's cheap shipping!"

author: mnementh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2018, 02:03:33 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on August 21, 2018, 04:53:59 amWow... even more and louder FUD. That $150 figure you just pulled out your arse, and you know it.Sounds like a lot of loud sour grapes to me. Thanks for playing. Come back when you're ready to BUY, notjust looking for a steal.Quote from: hendorog on August 21, 2018, 05:19:54 amCompared to the local HAM swap meet or waiting for that rare eBay that's mislisted or somehow the ebay gods frown and you're able to get it for nothing, yeah they are high. As I stated,I paid a premium price for DOA equipment. But I got exactly what was sold,not stuff that should have been thrown in the garbagesold on fleabay instead.The entire point of this post is not to shill for this vendor.It is to show how to shop for and find a fixer-upper at a reasonable pricewith the least likelihood of getting a box of shit.This is completely different from scouring eBay for the one-in-a-thousand STEAL. You cannot count on being able to steal what you need in this world, andthe folks looking for that steal are the ones most likely to wind up with coprolites rather than a diamond in the rough.Quote from: Fungus on August 21, 2018, 08:49:40 amYes, given how my meter was packed for protection, it really IS cheap shipping.If I were buying something like an 80s Tek 'scope with a gazillion easily-broken knobs & buttons, I'd PRAY it came packed this way.mnemPrice ≠ value.

author: Specmaster
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2018, 02:57:56 pm
content: Totally agree.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2018, 04:21:05 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on August 21, 2018, 07:53:57 amThe feedback rating used to be useful, but ebay kept messing with the algorithm until it became useless.Frankly you probably would have been better off taking pictures of the state of the item in front of him, then paying for it and leaving. Then file a claim that the item is not as described and request a refund. Ebay is heavily biased in favor of the buyer so it's very likely they would have refunded you. Having taken pictures of the item at his location and the pictures from the listing showing the serial number it would be pretty hard for him to dispute that the item was not as described.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2018, 05:10:44 pm
content: Doesn't work on collection items. The contract is satisfied if you walk with the item according to eBay.

author: Zucca
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 21, 2018, 05:24:30 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on August 21, 2018, 08:05:58 amHow about to set up Ebay seller black list thread? We could use the search function to check prior to buy.I know there is this:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/buysellwanted/consumer-alert-2nd-no-3rd-pass-through-the-spam-bot-filter/but I see not always an ebay username.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2018, 07:45:57 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on August 21, 2018, 05:10:44 pmIt still seems like you should be well within your right to walk away from the sale if the serial number doesn't match the item presented for collection. Maybe if you had sent payment then left without taking the item?

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2018, 07:49:07 pm
content: Was cash on collection.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2018, 07:51:42 pm
content: Ok well either way this is an issue with ebay if they would not let you off the hook. The item was clearly not as described, if the serial number does not match then there is no disputing this. You are well within your right to abort the sale and should not be punished for that.

author: mnementh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2018, 08:15:43 pm
content: Quote from: zucca on August 21, 2018, 05:24:30 pmHave you seen that thread? More like a random whine-ass list than anything actually useful.mnemPlease don't tell my mommy I said that.

author: Specmaster
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2018, 08:42:10 pm
content: Yes I have seen that thread and they bang on about Aliexpress being total shit, I've found them to be pretty good really, they do care about their public image and will refund you if one of the sellers steps out of line.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2018, 08:54:46 pm
content: I too have had reasonably good experiences with Aliexpress. It's mostly inexpensive low end stuff, as long as I know what to expect I don't really see a problem with it. If you receive something that is counterfeit or otherwise not as described you can get a refund.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2018, 09:02:31 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on August 21, 2018, 07:49:07 pmCould the error you made have been to report the item was not as described immediately to eBay instead of placing negative FB ?By placing FB you've indicated to eBay the transaction was complete.I get why you walked away from the purchase....and rightly too, but what you did afterwards caused the trouble IMO.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2018, 09:05:04 pm
content: Probably correct there. Signed my own death warrant

author: mnementh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2018, 09:31:36 pm
content: Yes, this is precisely why I held off on feedback with my first 189 until after the dispute was concluded. IMO, Posting negative feedback immediately shows bad faith to the eBay CSR, as there is no opportunity for the seller to remediate.Afterwards, I had zero compunctions about leaving negative feedback; as far as I was concerned, he had it coming the instant he forced a dispute. I'll admit I'm probably too much of a nice guy... I really hate leaving negative feedback and more often just let it slide and get on with my life. But there wasn't a single positive thing in the entire experience to mitigate my disgust; even AFTER it was all wrung out, he tried to have the last word via positive feedback (the only kind he could leave) with insulting comments. He EARNED his negative feedback.mnem*Not suffering fools gladly*

author: bitseeker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2018, 02:50:42 am
content: Yeah, eBay is getting to be less and less enjoyable on either side of a transaction. AliExpress, on the other hand, has been very good over the past few years. They're pretty quick about squashing fraudulent sellers, their buyer protection refunding works promptly, and the worst thing I've had happen thus far is approximately 10% shipment failures (which I get refunded for or re-shipped).

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 22, 2018, 03:59:58 am
content: Quote from: bd139 on August 21, 2018, 07:53:57 amI believe you can appeal the strike and it will likely be removed. EBay doesn't like buyers getting peeved - they're the ones who bring the cash to the platform.Quote from: zucca on August 21, 2018, 05:24:30 pmNot always effective. Any eBay member can change their username and maintain their existing account. Sure you can see the username history - but that's only if you go looking for it.Also, if you want to set up a blocked bidders list, it will only work with the current name ... so if you block username "Joe" and they try bidding under that name, they will get blocked. But if they simply change their account to username "Fred", they can chomp away all they like.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2018, 11:39:47 pm
content: Quote from: mnementh on August 21, 2018, 02:36:51 amI was hoping we would see this meter turn up here. I would have liked to have it for parts but not for that price. The case appeared to be in better condition than the one I am looking at now if that tells you anything.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2018, 11:32:05 pm
content: This is an excellent article about eBay shopping. Thanks for posting!

author: SoundTech-LG
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 29, 2018, 09:14:45 pm
content: I had a good experience there today... Seller took off $75 without me asking, because I mentioned the item had laser etching of an ID# on the top casing. I tried to remove it. I guess I need to sand and re-paint.

author: Specmaster
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 29, 2018, 09:18:25 pm
content: Proof positive that they are good seller with standards, I'm pleased for you. I'm eagerly awaiting my second purchase from them.

author: Specmaster
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 10, 2018, 01:02:47 am
content: To add a bit more to the excellent tips mnementh posted here, I can vouch that the principles if applied correctly can and do work, I've used that approach myself over the years and it's like anything in life, the more you practise it, the better you become at it.I understand that some UK members are a little nervous about buying anything from USA on Ebay because of the shipping and import fees along with the uncertainty of the sellers and also because of the cost of returning anything for a refund should it turn to be a pile of dog poo when you get it. I was one of those people myself once but after honing my skills in detecting a diamond in the rough, careful examination of the photos, description, sellers feedbacks, etc I think I've got it sorted, as this latest stateside purchase will demonstrate that it is possible to pick up some real gems if you're careful.I purchased from this sellerhttp://www.ebaystores.co.uk/Express-Equipment-Auctionsa HP3468A meter that was advertised as"SOLD AS-IS / UNTESTED, Unit Is In Good Cosmetic Condition, Minor Wear and TearUNIT POWERS ON AND DISPLAY IS FUNCTIONING.NO FURTHER TESTING DONE."The display was showing a voltage reading with no leads attached to the inputs but that is a known feature with this kind of meter and is due to the very high input impedance, the rest of the description seemed to be in keeping with the photos and the feedback was impeccable. It should be noted that this was not my first purchase from this seller either, I had a couple of weeks prior bagged a Fluke 8840A that was not quite in as good a condition as the 3468 was because the metal casing had some dents, but the front and rear plastic parts were perfect and so was the meter when I changed the voltage selector to 240v it spring to life and a perfectly usable meter and passed the calibration tests easily.I was hoping that I was going have myself another great meter that was in calibration (I can calibrate this type with ease if it wasn't) so I took it out of the packing (which is excellent with this seller), opened it up and changed the voltage tappings, gave it a once over for damage or anything wrong, looked OK so powered it up and bingo, it worked and I ran some calibration tests on it and it passed them again, like the Fluke, with ease.So in the end I got myself an excellent piece of TE for £133.86 shipped and all duty paid that would cost here in the UK far more and when you see the photos, it looks (after I cleaned off all the users ID marks etc) as if it has just been taken out of its box as a brand new meter for the first time, it certainly does not look like a 30 year old meter which it is.I'm extremely pleased with this meter it sits proudly alongside my other great purchases from both sides of the pond using the same techniques of thoroughly researching the product before looking for suitable rough diamond. My bench is looking great now with gear that looks as if it was purchased new recently, before it was decidedly a mix of rough looking and just about working gear that for years got me by.Its a great feeling buying something that is either new like my Brymen 867s or something with a little effort can be made to look like new and as an added bonus, needs no repair work being done, thumbs upto that.

author: mnementh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2018, 05:15:36 pm
content: And so I thought to myself... let's see if I can apply those same principles to another listing from another vendor only this time in reverse; here I plan to deliberately ignore a couple key strategic points of my "How-to":https://www.ebay.com/itm/263969514965This one looks quite promising at first glance; lots of clear pictures, seller has 100% positive positive feedback going back for 8 years, and the price is very reasonable, with shipping via UPS so a little higher than I'd like, but still reasonable.A closer look reveals a few troubling issues though, given the lookout points at the beginning of this article.First, the description: Very little of it, and what little there is practically screams "I'm missing important stuff" at you:Quote from: eBay AuctionThis kind of description is a huge red flag; but this is for "science", so let's press on.Further investigation of that feedback shows it is 100% positive, but all of it is as a buyer except one. A large portion of the feedback is from electronics wholesalers and electronic equipment resellers he's bought from, so odds are the seller has more than a passing interest in test equipment, and probably likes to tinker with such. A closer look at the photos shows two other similar pieces of test gear in the background.The seller took a pretty low offer, which in combination with the above pretty much screams "Too good to be true."But I'm contractually obligated to follow through; plus, I'm curious and I can afford it at the moment, so I wanna see how this one plays out.mnem

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2018, 05:59:37 pm
content: Good luck with that one. Interested to see what comes of it.90% of the time you still win on them. Most faults are trivial and isolated.I actually think to myself: if this is FUBAR then how much money can I get for the parts?The last stinker I bought, an HP 54602B which had been dropped, I made 2x what I paid for it parting it out. And I’ve still got the motherboard which I occasionally lift parts off for repairs as they are all jellybeans and expensive LT parts

author: Specmaster
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2018, 06:28:58 pm
content: Good luck with this one, it looks reasonable enough cosmetically apart from where the calibration sticker has been removed with a pointed instrumentPrice is reasonable as well provided it is all there inside and he has not ripped something out to fix up something else.What is ringing alarm bells for me is that as you say, looking at his feedbacks he is clearly into electronics, but he may be just a beginner and building up his tools of the trade as he has in the last 12 months purchased from our friends "Express Test" in Farmingdale so the question is, is this one that they sold as for parts, untested and has he had a go at fixing and failed?.Either way as bd139 pointed out, parting it out could recover the cost if all else fails. Can't wait for the next installment in this purchase.

author: bitseeker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2018, 06:43:45 pm
content: Yep, if all else fails, it's good for lots of parts. It's even got feet!

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2018, 07:01:36 pm
content: True. It's like that internet meme: "He's definitely dead; his shoes came off". That 3478A will be fine

author: Specmaster
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2018, 07:10:06 pm
content: True they are pretty bullet proof and above all else, they can be calibrated at home reasonably easy, just a tad bit fiddly.

author: mnementh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2018, 03:31:33 am
content: My gut reaction, especially given the low offer that the seller took, is that he A) tried to fix it himself and let the magic smoke out, or 2) robbed parts off this one to fix another and is selling the carcass for whatever he can get.We shall see what brown Santa actually brings.mnem*Toddles off to ded*

author: mnementh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2018, 03:34:14 am
content: Quote from: bitseeker on October 06, 2018, 06:43:45 pmDamn, you're right... what if it's even got the tilt bail on it? Then I'd be obligated to try and resurrect it, no matter WHAT'S WRONG with it...mnemMurphy's a bitch, and she has puppies.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2018, 08:43:30 am
content: Either that or it can stand at its own funeral

author: Specmaster
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2018, 09:12:03 am
content: Quote from: mnementh on October 07, 2018, 03:34:14 amReally, I've seen Murphy come in but not any puppies

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2018, 09:14:14 am
content: Tantalum capacitors in tek equipment are murphy’s puppies.

author: Specmaster
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2018, 09:19:30 am
content: Yeh, that figures

author: Specmaster
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2018, 09:51:50 am
content: Quote from: mnementh on October 07, 2018, 03:34:14 amWell if it comes to it....my 3478A has neither feet or tilting bail, looking for a donor.....Its the only bench meter I use that is missing those items

author: med6753
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2018, 11:46:38 am
content: Quote from: bd139 on October 07, 2018, 09:14:14 amTruth.

author: mnementh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2018, 02:46:32 pm
content: Whenever you guys say"Tants!!!"in thread that way... with loathing visibly dripping from every keystroke... I imagine gear infested with Domo-Kun. It makes me smile.mnem

author: GreyWoolfe
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 07, 2018, 06:41:00 pm
content: Quote from: Specmaster on October 07, 2018, 09:51:50 amMine had neither also. Luckily, I have a bunch of feet that I took off of some decommissioned company equipment before it went to be scrapped. Not as sexy as the original feet but functional. I used the existing holes and they fall in place to fit properly on the bench shelves. No tilting bail necessary. The shelf it will go on will put it at eye height.

author: Specmaster
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2018, 06:49:22 pm
content: Quote from: GreyWoolfe on October 07, 2018, 06:41:00 pm

author: med6753
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2018, 08:22:01 pm
content: Quote from: mnementh on October 07, 2018, 02:46:32 pmThose things and tants deserve this fate..

author: bitseeker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2018, 09:20:01 pm
content: Regarding feet for the 3478A, there is a more readily available alternative solution, if you have the same revision as mnementh.Specifically, on the front panel, the bezel is plastic and has four cleats(?) that hold the front panel in (e.g., one is between the up and down arrow buttons and another below the calibration switch):On the rear panel, a plastic bezel covers the rear edge of the slide-on lid:Both of these bezels are predecessors to the ones used on the 34401A and, hence, you can fit the front and rear bumpers from the 34401A, 34410A, 34411A, 33120A, 34461A, 53131A, etc. on the 3478A. Doing so eliminates the need for the original plastic feet as the bumpers have integrated feet. Of course, without the ability to mount the corresponding handle, there's no provision for a tilting bail.Although the front alumin(i)um bezel of the older version of 3478A is similar, and could use the front rubber bumper, it doesn't have a rear bezel to grip the rear bumper. But that shouldn't be a big problem unless you move the meter often.

author: Specmaster
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2018, 09:56:03 pm
content: Thanks, thats a thought except that mine must be older then because mine as the aluminum bezel, strange that because I always thought it was the plastic one that was the early meter.speaking of 3478A, have you had the courage yet to rob a fuse from something else and power it up on a variac seeing as it has a linear supply?

author: bitseeker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2018, 10:12:26 pm
content: Quote from: Specmaster on October 07, 2018, 09:56:03 pmYeah, the plastic one is cost-reduced with the plastic bezels, the one-piece slide-on cover, and opto-couplers on the motherboard. The aluminum version has multiple metal panels, heavy metal frame, and toroidal transformers instead of opto-couplers on the motherboard.QuoteI ordered a batch of fuses. I don't have any of the right rating. Good idea with the variac. Ease those RIFAs back to service — just temporarily, of course.Oops, I guess this discussion is veering too far into repair talk. Back to fleaBay strategies!

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2018, 10:55:10 pm
content: I'd rather remove the RIFAs than risk having to smell that again.Keeping it gambling - always price RIFAs into your repair budget!

author: Chris56000
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2018, 05:12:57 pm
content: Hi!I put up a Keysight 2100 (the re–badged Array M3500 one) which I'd been disappointed with because the handle and rear bumper was missing (it had been used in one of those stupid lab racks where they remove the handles, etc), so as I needed one I could carry I put it up for sale.Posting it with a verbal description on its own produced no interest for three days, but as soon as I revised the listing with pictures of it switched on, front and back pictures showing what was missing, and also the serial number I got plenty of interest afterwards, with bids ending at £200 when the auction closed, which I was quite happy with!Chris Williams

author: GregDunn
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2018, 08:03:04 pm
content: As a buyer, I really appreciate photos of the unit switched on as well as accurate descriptions. However, I dodged a bullet recently when buying a Fluke 8800A; the photos were accurate and the unit indeed powered on - however, the PSU had several bad caps and the ohms board a couple of very poor solder joints (obviously a failed repair attempt). The result was a meter which was badly out of spec on DCV and Ω until I fixed it.I don't really blame the seller for not realizing the unit didn't work properly because it was an estate sale through an antiques dealer who listed it in good faith. Yes, they should have contacted a tech to look it over before selling it as "working", but since the fix was very cheap and easy I decided not to press the issue. Also, it was a late model with the updated ohms board which doesn't require batteries, and those aren't common. I probably would have bought it even knowing the exact symptoms, but it would have been good to know beforehand.

author: bitseeker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2018, 01:58:29 am
content: Yeah, hence the importance of looking at other things the eBayer sells to gauge the potential oversights, innocent or otherwise, in the listing details. Buying from ignorant sellers can be advantageous, but it does introduce more risk and potential surprises.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2018, 07:11:35 am
content: Reading the manual and looking at the front panel tend to help. As I've mentioned elsewhere a broken scope isn't necessarily a broken scope if it the seller has got it stuck in X-Y mode and there's a dot on the screen.

author: Specmaster
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2018, 07:16:20 am
content: Quote from: bd139 on October 09, 2018, 07:11:35 amThat happens a lot as well.