How does one go about soldering surface mount stuff, it's just so tiny! - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / beginners

author: Red Squirrel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 12, 2016, 02:16:42 am
content: I overestimated my abilities when buying misc components to play with such as ADCs, lot of them are only available in surface mount.Figured I would use protoboard and PC pins to basically convert them to DIP but looking at the size of these chips, some are smaller than the actual width of the soldering iron. How does one go about soldering stuff that is this small?I have a feeling a lot of the stuff I bought is simply unusable for me. I don't have the proper setup to make my own boards nor is it worthwhile to CAD and get them made by a company given I don't plan to mass produce anything. Is there some kind of way I might be missing that this stuff can be soldered to something so that it can be put in a bread board? Even if I did get some kind of break out board made it's still simply too small to solder by hand. The blobs of solder created by initial melt is bigger then the entire chip. Here's an example just to get an idea:https://www.digikey.ca/product-detail/en/maxim-integrated/MAX11644EUA-/MAX11644EUA--ND/2349322Some are even smaller. I really did not think this through when ordering parts to play with.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 12, 2016, 02:21:45 am
content: It's a TSSOP, that'shuge!Get a smaller tip for your iron.

author: mariush
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 12, 2016, 02:30:25 am
content: Get liquid flux , use generously. Tin the pads before if needed, then put flux over the tin again.Get some narrow tip or a tip with a small hole at the top, see the picture and example of soldering at this page :https://www.hakko.com/english/tip_selection/work_drag.html- but this works if you have liquid flux to flux the IC leads and the pcb pads before, because when you put solder in that hole in the tip you're burning the flux built inside the solder wire.

author: alank2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 12, 2016, 02:32:41 am
content: For me:Flux pen:http://www.digikey.com/product-search/en/soldering-desoldering-rework-products/flux-flux-remover/1311241?k=zx%20fluxWES51 with ETP tipSolder .031 for bigger stuff, .015 for smaller stuffAmscope Stereo MicroscopeSilicone pad to keep it from sliding aroundThe .015 doesn't self flux nearly as well as the .031 - I tend to lay the .015 on the pin and bring the iron down onto it - that along with the 2331-zx flux wets it to the pins/pads nicely.Many people talk about a larger tip and using the flux in a drag type solder technique, and that does work, but for me I prefer to deal with each pin individually and it is more than doable with the ETP pin.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 12, 2016, 02:51:54 am
content: Quite recent thread:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/how-difficult-it-is-for-hobbyist-to-work-with-smd-packages/Few good ideas there, well worth the read.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 12, 2016, 03:56:41 am
content: EEVBlog has a video about soldering SMDsAs stated above, flux is the answer no matter the question.Google for drag solderingIf you're going to do a bunch of this kind of thing, search around for projects that convert a Toaster Oven to a Reflow Oven. I have one I made from a Black & Decker Toaster Oven. For this, you can either buy stencils with your PCBs and put just exactly the right amount of solder paste on the pads or, like I do, just dab some solder paste from a syringe. Place the parts and cook until done.This is the controller I used:http://www.rocketscream.com/shop/reflow-oven-controller-shield-arduino-compatibleIf you want to convert an oven, consider buying high temp insulating material (fiber material sheets) from McMaster-Carr and filling the cavity between the inner and outer walls. It will help the oven heat up.

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 12, 2016, 04:29:11 am
content: What ever videos or instructions you've watched or read, I still believe as the olde say "practice makes perfect" ...Assuming you already have a decent soldering iron with suitable sized tip, flux, solder etc.Find unused boards like pc mobo or others that have smd parts, even better it has similar sized component that you're going to solder.If the board is big one like pc mobo, cut them into small size as big area and the layers copper (big chunk ground layer) will suck the heat from the soldering tip so fast that make its much harder, it will feel like forever to melt the solder.Now, try desolder them, 1st time will be messy, and if you succeeded without lifting any pads, then clean the pads using desoldering braid and flux, once thoroughly cleaned, solder that chip back again. And repeat until you feel enough. Also start at other smaller or challenging sized chip once you already get used to that 1st one.I've been aiding, helping and sort of training my friends on these, most of the times after they've spent say like 2 or 3 hours with various sizes chips, and so far they never failed on soldering a new chip once they practiced with various chips. A stop watch running how long it takes to solder also will help to improve the speed as too long will affect the chip.Of course don't do the BGA type, that is another beast that needs hot air gun and preheater, just the simple dual row ones with protruded pins.My two cents.

author: JPortici
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 12, 2016, 05:52:47 am
content: desoldering braid (with flux) is your best friend

author: mikerj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 12, 2016, 06:39:47 am
content: I've been replacing 0201 caps and resistors and UCSP packaged op-amps over the last couple of days...that requires a steady hand. No coffee for me

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 12, 2016, 07:15:27 am
content: Quote from: JPortici on May 12, 2016, 05:52:47 amNot mine, never found the need to use either for SMD work....but each to their own methodology.

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 12, 2016, 07:33:47 am
content: Soldering wire has flux in it. You feed it into the joint, and the flux moves out and pools around the joint, keeping the solder mobile.For SMD, you need to hold the part while soldering it, so you would need 3 hands to hold the part down, apply the iron, and feed the solderwire. This is why flux.After adding the flux to the pcb, all you need to do is clean the tip of your iron and apply just a wee bit of solder to the tip. Then when you touch it to the pins, it will flow. If you applied too much solder, you can use solder braid to remove the excess.The more you do it, the less use you might have for solder wick. Some iron tips will work a lot better for SMD than others, to the point where you can remove excess solder with just the iron quicker and easier than wicking it. And there is a lot of personal preference. But a roll of solderwick is like 3 bucks for 5 feet, and it works very well for prototyping level of soldering, and it will correct bridges made with any tip. I have used up 4-5 pounds of solder in my life, and I'm only halfway through my first 5 foot bobbin of wick. You might as well buy a roll and keep it around. Because when you need solderwick, you need solderwick.Dead bug can be done with SSOP 0.05" pitch, too. 30AWG, silver plated kynar wrapping wire will be your friend, here. For point to point, you will want a fine tip. You can't drag solder jumper wires, cuz they will fall off.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 12, 2016, 07:35:39 am
content: Quote from: tautech on May 12, 2016, 07:15:27 amas the name stated.. its for "desoldering" ie removing things out, and removing extra blob of solder that should not be there. expert who just know the right amount wont need it, except for repair purpose. btw, a sharp or special tip iron like in the video is not a necessity, i always use my regular non-temp controlled blunted cone tip hakko presto to do the job, because its my favourite, availably cheap and thats what i'm already matched to. other people matched to the other tips so ymmv. the magic key and the only one, is the flux... you dont even need an iron, if you know how to and/or want to prove that you are superman...

author: Chris Wilson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 12, 2016, 07:38:08 am
content: I had to replace 2 TINY surface mount fuses in a densely packed board. 1.6mm by 0.8mm. A soldering iron tip small enough to not swamp the component had nothing like the thermal mass to heat the board to flow point, and one that did, physically swamped the component... I managed it by soldering one of fuses on top of a blown one. The other had more room around it and I managed to remove the old one and replace it with a conventionally mounted new one. How would a pro do such a replacement?https://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/non-resettable-surface-mount-fuses/0131577/?searchTerm=131-577&relevancy-data=636F3D3126696E3D4931384E525353746F636B4E756D6265724D504E266C753D656E266D6D3D6D61746368616C6C26706D3D5E5C647B337D5B5C732D2F255C2E2C5D5C647B332C347D2426706F3D313426736E3D592673743D52535F53544F434B5F4E554D4245522677633D4E4F4E45267573743D3133312D353737267374613D3031333135373726

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 12, 2016, 07:58:50 am
content: Quote from: Mechatrommer on May 12, 2016, 07:35:39 amI hear you Mech and again I say I never use it.Even for desoldering SMD passives, add additionalleadedflux coredsolder if/when needed and suck it off. Leaded solder is a must IMO to dilute that Pb free muck and make soldering a pleasure again.How we each go about working with SMD is the interesting bit, there's no right or wrong for hobbyists, we just work with what we have until it doesn't work.Then we go buy what we need to progress further.I haven't got anything flash, just a cheap rework station and a modest selection of tips, tweezers, a sucker and lots of leaded solder.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 12, 2016, 08:00:32 am
content: I hand soldered TVS array like this:It just takes good magnification, good tools, steady hand, lots of practice and increased FPM ("swear" per minute).

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 12, 2016, 08:02:25 am
content: Quote from: Chris Wilson on May 12, 2016, 07:38:08 amNo pro......but either hot air or one of these that can get heat to both pads:

author: Red Squirrel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 12, 2016, 11:26:27 am
content: I had trouble finding many solder tip selections when I bought my Hakko so had to stick with one that it comes with, but did find lot of rip off ones off Amazon, just not official ones. Are the rip offs worth while? I know they're rip offs because there's like 10 in a package when 1 real tip is same price. My solder is 0.8, suppose I can look at ordering a roll of smaller one. Anything in particular I should look for?How do you get the chip to stay put, is there a glue I can use that won't melt at solder temps? I suppose this would be easier if I had an actual circuit board but since I want to prototype and not actually get a board made I need a way to solder it to a perf board. I have solder paste as well if that might be easier. Never worked with it before and don't have a reflow or toaster oven though. Would heat gun work? I can maybe look at hooking up my camera to HDMI with macro lens for magnification. Though the slight video delay would make it a bit awkward I think.As a side note, how do you stop the PC pin plastic from melting when soldering PC pin headers? Figured I'd start by making the 8 pin board and half of the pins just sink through plastic from the solder heat.

author: Chris Wilson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 12, 2016, 11:39:15 am
content: I am curious as to how localised one get concentrate the "beam" from an IR soldering tool. Can they be focused on a single small SM component for soldering and de-soldering?

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 12, 2016, 12:49:51 pm
content: Quote from: Red Squirrel on May 12, 2016, 11:26:27 amWork faster or use a lower temperature. Don't solder pins in a row, work your way around to spread the heat.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 12, 2016, 12:52:56 pm
content: Quote from: Red Squirrel on May 12, 2016, 02:16:42 amFirst, don't panic.There are many many guides on the web. Mine is athttps://entertaininghacks.wordpress.com/2015/03/25/assembling-pcbs-with-surface-mount-components/and I suggest you might be interested in following the links.

author: Maxlor
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 12, 2016, 01:02:47 pm
content: Quote from: Red Squirrel on May 12, 2016, 11:26:27 amPersonally I favor 0.5mm and thinner for smd work. The thicker solder wire can be made to work, but you'll have to transfer it with the solder iron tip, which means the flux in the solder will be gone by the time it gets to the part, hence other posters recomendation to rely on manual flux application. I've seen people literally bathe parts in flux with good results, so there's really no amount that's too much.Quote from: Red Squirrel on May 12, 2016, 11:26:27 amSolder a corner pin (it doesn't matter if you get bridged pins), then a pin on the opposite side. Solder the rest of the pins, then at the end clean up the bridges that might have occurred at the beginning by draging the iron tip along the pins, from the inside to the outside. If that doesn't work, use a bit of solder wick (if you don't have any, create some yourself by dousing some stranded wire with flux) to remove the excess solder.Heat guns and the like are a bad idea because they're very imprecise and can very easily overheat a part and damage it (and you have no way reliably knowing that it even happened), and the air flow can blow away small parts. They kinda work for desoldering parts when you're going to throw the parts away anyhow.Solder paste I find only useful for reflow soldering, not hand soldering.Some people find magnification helps, but since I'm short sighted anyway, I usually just replace my glasses with (uncorrected) safety glasses and enjoy the natural magnification effectIf I can't do that because I chose to wear contacts that day, I found loupe lamps quite nice, since they magnify and give you good lighting at the same time. Plus, they're a lot cheaper than useful electronic setup.Quote from: Red Squirrel on May 12, 2016, 11:26:27 amFirst realize that not all plastic is equal, some will melt at 150°C (for a famous example, see Dave's plasma repair attempt), and other plastic is designed to withstand the 260°C reflow temperature profile. If you they're more frustrating than useful, throw away the cheap ebay special headers and buy brand name ones from mouser or wherever that come with a datasheet that says they'll withstand higher temperatures. In any case, when hand soldering, it comes down to being reasonably quick and not using a higher iron temperature than necessary. It helps slightly if you put something on the header that acts as a heatsink, like a socket or aligator clip, if your iron can deliver the heatflow.

author: Maxlor
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 12, 2016, 01:09:25 pm
content: Quote from: Chris Wilson on May 12, 2016, 11:39:15 amHaven't tried it, but it seems unlikely to produce good results. Different surface textures will cause uneven heating; in particular the blackish package will pick up a lot of heat (and you usually want to avoid that) while the blank metal pins that you're actually trying to heat up will reflect most of it. Aside from that, the working temperature will be hard to control and maintain consistently.

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 12, 2016, 01:11:43 pm
content: You can get some SMD soldering practice kits off Ebay -http://www.ebay.com/itm/2Sets-DIY-SMD-SMT-Components-Welding-Practice-Board-Soldering-Skill-Training-Kit-/151948955565?hash=item2360dd0fad:g:dF0AAOSwX~dWlmYP

author: alank2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 12, 2016, 01:16:20 pm
content: Quote from: Red Squirrel on May 12, 2016, 11:26:27 amI forgot this in my earlier post - I use the hook part of it to apply downward pressure on a part while I solder a couple of pins. Then I pull it away and use the flux pen carefully on the remaining pins before soldering them.http://www.harborfreight.com/spring-hook-95757.htmlI taped some lead bullets I had laying around (not a complete cartridge, just the bullet part, nearly all lead) to the shaft to give it a little more weight.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 12, 2016, 01:32:25 pm
content: Quote from: Red Squirrel on May 12, 2016, 11:26:27 amif you think that is not neat... well... thats the life of us..

author: Red Squirrel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 12, 2016, 01:42:37 pm
content: Most tutorials/videos seem to assume you have a board that has the pads already, imagine that would be easier as there is a proper surface to solder it on. I'm trying to prototype it so I can use in a bread board. I'm not mass producing so it's not worthwhile for me to get boards made or buy all the stuff to etch my own. I was thinking I could dead bug prototype but it's just so small, my hands are just not steady enough for that type of precision. If I can find a way to precisely place wire strands on each pin with solder paste can I "reflow" with a heat gun, or will it just melt and the wires fall off? If I could do that then I could glue it on piece of perf board and run leads to each pc pin.

author: Iron Downey
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 12, 2016, 01:43:53 pm
content: SMT is not a easy job for a beginner, especially for the small parts. Suggest you watch more solder video and practice more and one day you will be good at it. If you don't have the willing to do the soldering job and thought it's tough, you can take it to the professional guys. Many guys around the world can do this service.

author: alsetalokin4017
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 12, 2016, 01:57:26 pm
content: Breakout/adapter boards might be a good solution for some of the parts since you are prototyping. Solder paste and a hot air station (not a paint-removing hot air gun!) will also be very helpful.These adapters will fit standard breadboards:https://www.sparkfun.com/products/498

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 12, 2016, 02:03:17 pm
content: Quote from: Red Squirrel on May 12, 2016, 01:42:37 pmA 5cm*5cm double-sided PTH board complete with solder resist and silk screen costs $15, inc postage and 9 spares. You can get a lot of SMD components on that board. Pretty damn inexpensive.Even more inexpensive if you design your own "SMD carrier" aka breakout aka adapter boards and put many of those in a 5cm*5cm space. Or, there are quite a few SMD prototyping boards on the market.Having been making my own PCBs since the early 70s and being concerned about using them, I was wrong:SMDs are wonderful.https://entertaininghacks.wordpress.com/category/homebrew-pcbs/Just try it and see.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 12, 2016, 02:09:06 pm
content: Quote from: Red Squirrel on May 12, 2016, 01:42:37 pmthen it will boils down to your physique ability. if you think you can then you can, if you think you cant then you cant...though to solder on smaller devices, industry has produced many devices for that, vision aid, automated pick and place etc, but that contradicts with your lemma. the hobbiest alternatives for that is the thing like handheld or cheap bench top magnifier, helping hand, tweezer, pcb holder etc.Quote from: Red Squirrel on May 12, 2016, 01:42:37 pmbased on your description of skill, yes they will fall off. i have heat gun beside the iron, but imho i dont thing heat gun is the right thing for that. i'll pick up heat gun when the iron cannot do things like BGA, or the "pins underneath" type, but that is a very seldom occasion..Quote from: Red Squirrel on May 12, 2016, 01:42:37 pmyes if that you think suits you, though that is not a common practice, at least for me. maybe 2 part glue 50 50 mix will do under the torture of heat? i dont know... but i'm thinking of double sided tape or capton and then a quick poke on each pins. a quick poke is an art by itself, if you havent learnt using the flux.

author: sleemanj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 12, 2016, 02:15:47 pm
content: Quote from: alsetalokin4017 on May 12, 2016, 01:57:26 pm2.95 for a single breakout that only does SSOP is just a ridiculous price, not even I mark them up that much.Aliexpress them if you can wait for it 10-20c US a piece, just search SSOP Adapter

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 12, 2016, 02:34:56 pm
content: Quote from: Red Squirrel on May 12, 2016, 11:26:27 amIt really doesn't matter. I use a blunt chisel tip and it works fine.QuoteFor small packages, like resistors and caps, put solder paste on the pads, set the part and hold it down with tweezers while you hit the joint with the iron.For big packages (ICs and such), position the part with tweezers, run a bead of flux along the pins, finalize the position and tack a corner. Then tack an opposite corner. Now you can drag solder the rest of the chip. You can drag solder using conventional solder or you can run a small (VERY small) bead of solder paste over the pins.I use both conventional solder and solder paste depending on which I think will be easier at the moment.QuoteGet in, get the pad soldered and get out. Don't hang around heating things up.Here's where I get my solder paste and flux. Buy some small needles (red and yellow) as well:http://www.howardelectronics.com/You need some good tweezers, both straight and curvedhttps://www.sparkfun.com/search/results?term=tweezersI'm using an OptiVisor #10. I had to buy the lens separately because the normal lens just didn't do what I wanted when checking for solder bridges. I would love to have a microscope but they're a little too expensive.Besides, I use a toaster oven more often than not!For breadboarding awkward packages, see SchmartBoard for adapters:http://schmartboard.com/

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 12, 2016, 02:50:13 pm
content: Quote from: Red Squirrel on May 12, 2016, 01:42:37 pmdo it first, conclude later.

author: dentaku
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 12, 2016, 03:14:43 pm
content: Little adapters like this are great because they're easy to solder surface mount chips to (using flux helps a lot like people have been saying) and they can then have 0.1 inch pins attached to them so you can use it just like a trough hole part,http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/ODAwWDgwMA==/z/4L4AAOSwgQ9V2ZQD/$_35.JPG

author: Red Squirrel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 12, 2016, 03:44:31 pm
content: Yeah I'm starting to think it may be easier to just bite the bullet and buy the break out boards or have some made. Just need to find a place here in Canada that sells for half decent price. The ones I found originally were 15 bucks or so which seems crazy.I need to learn KICAD too, then I can just design a PCB panel with a whole bunch of different ones, make the cost of making a board made worthwhile. Can always do a batch of whatever the manufacturer's minimum order is and sell the rest. I could fit quite a few on a single panel and just do all the most common smd footprints.

author: alsetalokin4017
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 12, 2016, 04:04:37 pm
content: Maybe it's already done for you:http://dirtypcbs.com/view.phphttp://dirtypcbs.com/view.php?share=1141&accesskey=d1aa8ebe5b0c791c73852e5fae27e8cdhttp://dirtypcbs.com/view.php?share=3636&accesskey=ca2cde8369c1b9d4730ce3b1e8996b67

author: TheDirty
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 12, 2016, 04:20:08 pm
content: Quote from: Red Squirrel on May 12, 2016, 03:44:31 pmE-Bay / Aliexpress. Anything local will be expensive. Local has to pay real shipping or store space and doesn't sell anywhere near the volume of the Chinese sellers.From many years ago:

author: Red Squirrel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 12, 2016, 04:29:22 pm
content: That looks like an interesting site, did not figure some makers would make such low quantities. Wonder what customs would be like... I'd have to try it some time.Found these as well, and many others on ebay, might go that route:http://www.ebay.ca/itm/10pcs-TSSOP28-SSOP28-to-DIP28-Pinboard-SMD-to-DIP-Adapter-0-65-1-27mm-NEW-/171907106472?hash=item28067646a8:g:ILEAAOSwk5FUu0SdBeats trying to dead bug solder something so small! So think this is what I'll do is get/make boards.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 12, 2016, 05:00:56 pm
content: Quote from: Red Squirrel on May 12, 2016, 03:44:31 pmwhy? freaked out looking at people tried to solder on a non-proper surface?

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 12, 2016, 05:58:51 pm
content: Quote from: Red Squirrel on May 12, 2016, 04:29:22 pmNot sure which site you mean, since you didn't use the "Quote" button when replying.If you like traditional breadboarding, you might do worse than the Boardworx system; seehttp://www.boardworxsystem.com/index_files/stepbystep.htmfor examples. I haven't tried them, but I like the ability to keep all components close to each other. Shame there isn't a solid ground plane on one side.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 12, 2016, 06:00:51 pm
content: Quote from: dentaku on May 12, 2016, 03:14:43 pmOne of the major advantages of SMD is that short leads = low inductance = faster without oscillations.Another is that you can pack the components close together.While appealing, breakouts boards destroy those advantages.

author: Red Squirrel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 12, 2016, 06:15:30 pm
content: Sorta off topic but on subject of oscillations and situations where physical layout matters a lot, what frequencies does this become an issue?Also I was not clear about customs meant the border charges, ex: wonder if I get charged that when getting PCBs made outside Canada. Been nailed with customs before buying from certain places. A $700 bill in the mail 6 months after a purchase aint fun. Oddly Ebay and Amazon seems to never have customs so I tend to order from there if ordering outside Canada.

author: ZeTeX
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 12, 2016, 06:26:02 pm
content: Using small human, small iron, small flux, small solder, small hands, small eyes..

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 12, 2016, 06:31:32 pm
content: Quote from: Red Squirrel on May 12, 2016, 06:15:30 pmIt entirely depends on the circuit and components. For analogue, remember the old adage "amplifiers oscillate, oscillators won't". For digital circuits, the bit rate or clock rate is completely irrelevant; all that matters is the risetime.QuoteWill customs bother with a small package sent by China Post with a declared value of $5 or whatever? Something sent by UPS/Fedex is more likely to attract attention, and large companies are not going to want to get on the wrong side of the authorities.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 12, 2016, 08:23:54 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on May 12, 2016, 06:00:51 pmSo does breadboarding regardless of how you mount the parts. You will never have the advantage of a 4 layer board with solid Vcc and Gnd planes. Nor can you get the advantage of decoupling capacitors mounted right next to the Vcc pins with vias through to the gnd plane.I use the SchmartBoard adapters or something similar from Canadahttp://store.qkits.com/

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 12, 2016, 08:37:31 pm
content: Quote from: rstofer on May 12, 2016, 08:23:54 pmWith wilderness breadboards, of course that's right. But there are other breadboarding techniques; see the famous AN-47 for example.PCBs are often best, I don't think the OP is ready for them yet!

author: Red Squirrel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 12, 2016, 09:05:50 pm
content: Yeah once I learn more and feel more confident to go straight to pcb I will do that, but for now I'm just messing around so need quick plug and play bread boarding. Think I'll go ahead and order those ebay breakout boards. Eventually I do want to look at making my own PCBs, as practice I'll probably make some break out boards or rather simple circuits and move from there.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 12, 2016, 09:14:27 pm
content: There are two aspects to designing your own PCBs : knowing what constitutes a good PCB, and knowing which buttons to press in a schematic and layout application.The first takes a lifetime, so you had better start now. The second isn't difficult but takes time and patience. Bite the bullet.

author: Red Squirrel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 12, 2016, 09:25:00 pm
content: Yeah I'm currently in the process of figuring out Kicad.

author: Paul Moir
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 12, 2016, 10:18:56 pm
content: Breakout boards can where you find them too:https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/jyLempFAvY-B8IDqRS2WktMTjNZETYmyPJy0liipFm0?feat=directlinkThat was a hunk cut out of an old memory module.Regarding buying from ebay, etc. The way it works is if the value of the package is under $20 Canadian, they don't bother. However, above that you've got to pay at least the GST. Knowing this, some sellers mark the package as being worth some nominal value. Customs is of course wise to this, so it can get you in trouble if they decide it's worth more. Things with no paperwork get charged a nominal value (ie, $100 for "software").If buying from the States, you can get stuck with additional charges. UPS and FEDEX will charge you quite a lot to pay the taxes owed for you. And the tax on those services as well. And the additional fees on those services. USPS hands off to Canada Post who charges something like $5 to pay the taxes.The way to get around them is to use sellers who pre-pay the taxes owed. For ebay, look for auctions that advertise "No additional import fees". For electronics, Digikey, Mouser and Newark all do this. Digikey particularly has very fast very cheap shipping. I think they must send a truck to Winnipeg and distribute from there. The side benefit to these prepaid purchases is that the package sails through customs, saving a day or two transit.Finally, consider UK sellers as well. I find if they're shipping Royal Mail, it's cheap and pretty fast. For me it's usually faster than getting stuff from the US, but I'm on the East Coast so perhaps that helps too.

author: Red Squirrel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 12, 2016, 11:33:55 pm
content: I've been lucky with Ebay, typically the boxes are small, and they don't get hit with customs. Oddly it's cheaper to get stuff shipped from China than from the US.

author: molotov
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: May 13, 2016, 03:55:33 pm
content: A cheap toaster oven and some solder paste will make your life much easier if you need to solder a bunch of SMDs.

author: Red Squirrel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 13, 2016, 04:13:54 pm
content: Yeah definitely will get a toaster oven if I get into making more projects. Can probably mod it with a micro controller to turn it on/off to match proper reflow profiles.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 13, 2016, 04:28:33 pm
content: Quote from: Red Squirrel on May 13, 2016, 04:13:54 pmIf you have an oven, you will need a cheap non-contact thermometer (and they're fiun/useful for other things too). But if you have a non-contact thermometer, you have all the equipment required for the saucepan+sand method.Ovens are beneficial if you are doing many boards, but they require a heck of a lot of fiddling to get repeatable results.Saucepan+sand is quick, cheap, and easy for the odd board. You have to stand over it and watch the temperature creep up, but you'll be doing that with an oven anyway.Whatever you choose, you'll have to do a few experiments to feel satisfied with your technique - but that was true for bog-standard soldering as well!Bite the bullet: get tweezers, solder paste, a flux pen, components (lots, since they disappear like fleas), a head magnifying visor, and a saucepan. That lot will cost less than $50, and you're off.