Austrailia cell phone blocking 516,875 Active Phones Overnight + Tourists Phones - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: BrianHG
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2024, 08:05:00 pm
content: Australia’s New Firewall IMEI BLOCKED 516,875 Active Phones Overnight + Tourists Phones Blocked

author: Andy Chee
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2024, 08:28:31 pm
content: It should be noted that many of those blocked phones are 3G phones, which no longer function in Australia anyway due to the recent shutdown of 3G infrastructure.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2024, 08:31:02 pm
content: Never mind just phones.What about asset trackers?Emergency call modules in cars?Security systems?Defibrillators with emergency notifications?Someone who had to witness the blatant stupidity and politics of telco providers, this is a very dangerous precedent. This will kill people.There is something called 2G/3G LSS, limited network, and it exist for a damn reason.

author: BrianHG
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2024, 08:34:10 pm
content: Quote from: Andy Chee on November 11, 2024, 08:28:31 pmThat is not what happened, 4G and 5G phones were blocked as well.Watch the video.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 11, 2024, 08:51:16 pm
content: They effing banned everything theysuspectmay not be able to call 000, now people are rooting their phones to spoof IMEI, which seems to actually work only on app level.

author: Andy Chee
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2024, 08:52:50 pm
content: Quote from: BrianHG on November 11, 2024, 08:34:10 pmMissing my point.Out of 516,000 phones, approximately 200,000 were 3G phones.

author: factory
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2024, 08:56:26 pm
content: Seems to be a similar topic to some of the posts in this thread;https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/telstra-to-shut-down-3g-mobile-network-in-2024-(au)/

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2024, 09:10:00 pm
content: Quote from: tszaboo on November 11, 2024, 08:31:02 pmThe writing has been on the wall for 3G for some time - anyone who designed in 3G in the last 10 years should have been aware. The plan has always been to keep 2G as the fallback and upgrade to 4G and 5G.Any decent 3G module will fall back to 2G EDGE and for low data rate applications (like asset tracking, emergency call) this will work fine.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2024, 09:20:54 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on November 11, 2024, 09:10:00 pmThey turned off 2G as well. Also, feel free to compare the prices of 4G modules to 3G or 2G modules a few years ago.To save you some time, no it doesn't fit into your budget.There wasn't even anything decent 4G up until a few years ago. They all needed multiple antennas, and provided way too much speed for anything for very high prices.And the issue is not with even with the module price. The module is fine. The issue will be when they quote you 2500 EUR to come on site and install you a new alarm system because the "old one" from 5 year ago is with 2G and 3G.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 11, 2024, 10:10:07 pm
content: Quote from: tszaboo on November 11, 2024, 08:31:02 pmUsers have had well over 5 years to plan ahead for this. Telcos have offered continual communications around this, and even provided free handsets to those who need it. I think there is very little excuse. The technology is about 25 years old... It's time to move on.I personally see the shutdown as a good thing. If you're travelling, surely you'd do some homework into the country you are going into? Surely. In any case, WiFi is still a thing and readily available for free.It is also currently being discussed in detail here:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/telstra-to-shut-down-3g-mobile-network-in-2024-(au)/

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2024, 10:13:40 pm
content: Quote from: tszaboo on November 11, 2024, 09:20:54 pmWell that's flipping retarded. The UK is keeping at least 2G going until 2033. A lot of our smart meters are based on 2G for instance, they already spent billions installing them.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 11, 2024, 10:34:47 pm
content: Quote from: Halcyon on November 11, 2024, 10:10:07 pmThe thing is, you could buy a 5G capable phone a year ago, and now its IMEI is banned if you're unlucky. Also Telstra apparently has some weird-ass proprietary VoLTE implementation as icing on the cake.QuoteThere is no way to reliably know if your phone will actually work. It may support VoLTE but be banned because VoLTE does not work for emergency calls, because operator just suspected it may be the case, or just because they misidentify your phone model in their IMEI database.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2024, 10:56:45 pm
content: Quote from: tszaboo on November 11, 2024, 08:31:02 pmyou are absolutely right because telephones get used for all sorts of crazy shit, I would not be surprised if there was a nuclear reactor with a 'phone' alarm somewhere. I personally saw this before where someone started skipping some safety stuff on a big setup because they had a phone caller attached to it which ensured they would be on site within 10 minutes. Especially when they live nearby. All they knew about it is that is a black box with an antenna that connects to a custom 'alarm' output on a pLC thingy that they setup very specifically because they were certain that they 'knew' the behavior of the system prior to failure and could make a program that detects it, but it was nebulous enough that basically it was likely to false trip, but it would 'save' equipment if it stayed on and waited for a engineer to come and follow specific procedures on shutdown based on best judgement. bet you it was on a yearly test schedule too lol. this happens with smart people that are MAD cheap. also only 1 guy knew WTF that thing was LOL. Also its a means by which you can work from home, so you know its gonna be AROUND. And it was like half analog so you can't totally remote access it... price of the design would go up by like 5000% for full digital , and they had concerns about the performance of the 'new ' parts.the idea that all these little systems people use are checked or properly 'attributed' are very low

author: flipper
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2024, 11:20:43 pm
content: Aussies are just weird.

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2024, 11:52:43 pm
content: Meanwhile, landline phones from more than half a century ago keep working as usual

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2024, 11:56:50 pm
content: Quote from: Halcyon on November 11, 2024, 10:10:07 pmSo what, you are going to replace your car because the eCall module in it is for 2G?They were launching new modules to the market as late as 2014:https://erticonetwork.com/u-blox-launches-low-power-version-of-2g-ecall-module/Which means that cars designed in ~2016 might be coming with this modules.Just keep in mind that until 3GPP Release 13-14 there wasn't any communication protocol that was usable for low power/industrial applications. LTE was a mess, with gigantic size modules, multiple antennas as requirement and no global certification for the modules. Release 13, that's 2015-2017. At that point GSM module makers started releasing their modules, that took a year or two to certify because of burocracy, and then another year or two to make it into products. And then we are talking 2020-2021. For companies that actually pay attention, and have an engineering team on top of things to be able to replace old modems. And then you for example might have a 3 year old industrial system (with 25 year expected lifetime otherwise) that you need to send to the landfill.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 12, 2024, 01:07:10 am
content: Quote from: tszaboo on November 11, 2024, 11:56:50 pmI'm not suggesting people should just go out and buy new cars, however I think the finger should be pointed at the manufacturer of the vehicle/product, not the service provider. Who in their right mind would build a product, that is designed to last many years, if not decades, on completely outdated technology or, on technology that can't be easily swapped out? Why should the telcos keep supporting this stuff for years and years to come because product designers are too lazy or incompetent?We saw this happen from the transition from AMPS to GSM, then with the CDMA shutdown, then the 2G shutdown and now the 3G shutdown. Same arguments, same complaints, yet some people/companies never learn.

author: Andy Chee
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2024, 01:10:38 am
content: Quote from: amyk on November 11, 2024, 11:52:43 pmNot in Australia, we also got rid of most of our copper twisted pair network as well as the 48 volt battery powered exchanges.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2024, 01:17:14 am
content: Quote from: amyk on November 11, 2024, 11:52:43 pmNot over here. Most of the copper phone network has been disabled a long time ago. I have removed the landline wiring as far as I could a couple of months ago as part of tidying up the utility closet. If there where contests for neat utility closets, I would probably win

author: Analog Kid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2024, 01:51:23 am
content: I wonder if the US still has its landline network.I know that one can still get a landline here, but is it still operated using the same equipment as previously used, or is it now part of the "regular" phone network (i.e., digital)? I know a landline still requires copper running to the MPOE (service entry point).What I always liked about landlines was the fact that they were operated from gigantic battery banks, and were therefore more reliable than cell phones in the sense that if there was a widespread power outage, the landline would still work.Does anyone know about this for sure?

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2024, 09:05:17 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on November 12, 2024, 01:07:10 amBecause it's just a click in a software to keep the old technology there for emergency call. All the cell towers are SDRs for a long time it doesn't cost too much to keep the 2G operational.3G wasn't an obsolete technology. In fact, as I was pointing it out, it didn't had a reasonable alternative up until 3-4 years ago. Yes, LTE was there, but the modems for it were about 4x the size than recent LPWA modems, and their cost was 6-7x the price. Modems are already the most expensive part in your BOM, imagine paying a lot more for them. The only incompetence was on the telco's side. Look at them, they didn't manage to deploy LTE CAT-M worldwide, even thought the standards been out for 8 years now. Entire continents don't have coverage.I know it seems like "just use better tech" is an answer, but clearly you don't seem to understand the complexities of product design with GSM/LTE. It's not as simple as that.Then there is the incompetence of just IMEI blocking phones. Even phones that work just fine. But even the ones that don't, they could easily receive a FW update over wifi, and keep on working, except they outright blocked them. How can you take their side in this argument? Don't you see how this is bad?

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 12, 2024, 09:13:45 am
content: Quote from: tszaboo on November 12, 2024, 09:05:17 amI think that's over-simplifying it. It's not that easy and the decisions have been carefully planned and deliberate. The benefits exceed the negatives.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2024, 12:31:19 pm
content: Quote from: tszaboo on November 12, 2024, 09:05:17 amNo. The frequency bands are being reused for LTE. AFAIK all the GSM frequency bands are now repurposed for LTE in the Netherlands. There is a lot of money involved in obtaining licenses for those frequencies so they are not going to waste that on something that doesn't bring in any money.In the end every wireless technology becomes obsolete after a decade or so. So anything which can't be upgraded will lose functionality after a while.

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2024, 12:52:16 pm
content: Quote from: Halcyon on November 12, 2024, 01:07:10 amThere is nothing "incompetent" in designing a product using parts that are suitable and available especially when nothing better is suitable or available as tszaboo correctly points out. Just, say, 6 years ago that meant 3G. From design lock-in to product being actually on market, that 6 years becomes 4-5 years. Then surely a product can't be on the market for just one year, you need to be able to sell it enough to cover for NRE cost, most manufacturers can't handle upgraded model every year. So maybe your market lifetime is 3 years, even that is very short. 4 - 3 = 1, so the remaining lifetime of a product for end user who buys the product from the retailer is 1 freaking year.And it should be at very ****ing least 10 years.Theoretical time from some standardization is irrelevant, and designers working with actual reality are not "incompetent" because someone feels that destroying and shutting down is some kind of "advance". Designers are not capable of miracles. And actually knowing that there is a risk that your recent IoT design becomes a brick overnight because of such instability of society does certainly not drive any advance, it hinders companies making new designs around the succeeding standards and prefer stone age solutions instead.Totally unacceptable. There is no excuse for this crap. Suddenly bricking nearly state-of-the-art technology and saying it is "too old" if just psychopathic.And the answer to your question "why should" is simple: for security, safety and convenience of everyone; for the common good. There is a very good reason why telco companies actually do not operate in a fully free market, but a government-regulated one. In this case government regulation clearly failed (it's also the correct address for blame).Yes, if you create a society where defibrillators call the emergency services or where a stuck elevator has an alarm phone system, then yes, youhaveto keep supporting this stuff "for years and years to come", I don't understand why you are so surprised about this. Another alternative is stone age and not having these modern things. Tearing it all apart every few years is too costly.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2024, 04:50:07 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on November 12, 2024, 12:31:19 pmThere are over a hundred frequency bands defined for 5G. Don't tell me that downloading tiktok faster is worth more than that ~50MHz that was occupied to keep 2G emergency calls operational. If so please tell it to all that people that unavoidably will die because of stupid decisions like this.Tell it to the 4 year old girl in an upside down car with incapacitated parent. "You should've bought a car with a 4G module"

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2024, 05:13:49 pm
content: Quote from: tszaboo on November 12, 2024, 04:50:07 pmSome bean counters or similar excel scientists calculate that measly bandwidth divided by even less use and arrive at the result that it is "inefficient" use of bandwidth. Which it of course is, but not every thing must be optimized for maximum efficiency in average case.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2024, 05:21:35 pm
content: And here I am in a country where the analogue cut off is still only partly done, expected to be complete somewhere around 2027. 2G is gone 2 years ago, and 3G is going to be around for another decade or so, simply because it covers 90% of the country already, and most of those remote sites have very low utilisation, serving only a few hundred customers in homes, and a few thousand that drive through per day.

author: flipper
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2024, 07:41:54 pm
content: Australia doesn't sound like a particularly intelligent country, government-wise.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2024, 08:27:31 pm
content: Before I retired, when bigger wheels in the company made a change that I thought was counter-productive, saying that nobody had objected, I often replied "whom did you ask?".

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2024, 08:36:51 pm
content: Quote from: Analog Kid on November 12, 2024, 01:51:23 amAT&T worked tirelessly to lobby for permission to discontinue landlines for household subscribers.A recent political corruption case in Illinois involved shady lobbying against the Illinois requirement to continue landline service.So far as I know, traditional landlines are still operational for business subscribers here.A consumer lobby in Illinois:https://www.citizensutilityboard.org/end-atts-consumers-choice-plans/This AT&T ad includes landline, but pushes VOIP connection:https://www.attsavings.com/business/phone#landline

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 12, 2024, 10:37:19 pm
content: Quote from: tszaboo on November 12, 2024, 04:50:07 pmSeems a bit alarmist.Firstly, the TikTok example is not why this is being done (well, not JUST). Normal individuals actually have lowest priority on the network compared to other users. These networks are utilised for much more than just Youtube and TikTok videos. Secondly, it's about improving coverage, improving speeds and making more efficient use of the bands (which cost money).Finally most cars in Australia don't have the emergency calling built into the car, even in the fancier ones it's optional. People don't really want it. I think I've been in 1 car that had it and no idea if the owner even used it. What 99% of the population does have however is a smartphone and/or a smart watch. Most of those have crash detection built-in. I would bet that there have been many more lives saved on Australian roads with those two products, than anything built into a vehicle.

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2024, 11:26:07 pm
content: I feel like the 2G/3G modems in cars is a separate car legislation issue, whose blame lies elsewhere. If communication is that important, the car should have a modular modem slot that can easily be upgraded.As it is many manufacturers only care if the car will work until the warranty is out, maybe 3 or 4 years at most.Quote from: Analog Kid on November 12, 2024, 01:51:23 amThe new landlines are over fiber optic connections, and you can still operate them during a power outage if you get a UPS for your modem. Although its not clear for how long.At a certain point it makes more sense to spend money on backing up the new systems (fiber and cell) over trying to maintain the old.https://forum.telus.com/t5/Internet-Home-Phone/Forced-landline-forfeiture/m-p/116558

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 13, 2024, 12:04:29 am
content: Quote from: thm_w on November 12, 2024, 11:26:07 pmExactly. And as I said in the other thread, I think a small amount of the onus should be on the buyer of the car. If it's a function that is that important or critical to them, then they should be asking the right questions before buying the car and determining if that is the right purchase for them.At the end of the day, 3G is old technology. Yes, a small number of people will be disadvantaged initially, but it's a very small percentage of the population in reality. People talk about old lift alarms, fire alarms etc... Those should all be tested on a regular basis and if they are found to be inoperable, do something about it.

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2024, 12:22:40 am
content: Quote from: TimFox on November 12, 2024, 08:36:51 pmYes landlines are still common in the US, but even in areas where the backbone has been converted to optical, the CPE interfaces to the existing copper lines inside the house.I think if mobile phones want to be seen as something more than a fragile trend, they should settle down on a standard and stay there, like has happened with AC mains power connectors. Imagine if they wanted to change mains plugs every few years

author: Analog Kid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2024, 12:39:27 am
content: Quote from: thm_w on November 12, 2024, 11:26:07 pmSo, no more batteries at the central office, correct? Too bad. With that you wouldn't need a UPS to make a call.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 13, 2024, 07:24:29 am
content: Quote from: amyk on November 13, 2024, 12:22:40 amFrom what I understand, cellular networks in the US are very different to other parts of the world. It seems very "fractured" and the level of service you get varies wildly depending on where you are and who you're a customer of.Countries like Australia have done away entirely with concept of roaming domestically. That hasn't been a thing since the AMPS days. You also only have a choice of 3 carriers (with many MVNOs attached off them). Typically on any given carrier, coverage reaches 99% of the population. It's very much seen as the first, if not the only reliable data and voice communications method, as more and more people dump their landlines (which are VoIP now anyway). The closure of 3G will only improve things on the other standards.The infrastructure is exceptionally good and a lot of resources have been poured into the networks. I've personally been through several major incidents, with bushfires being the most prevalent and still communications continue to work. It's exceptionally rare where a carrier's network is unavailable and even then emergency calls will connect with the remaining carrier(s) in a given area.

author: ftg
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2024, 09:01:53 am
content: Quote from: tszaboo on November 12, 2024, 04:50:07 pmA GSM/GPRS (not EDGE) carrier occupies a single 200kHz wide channel on the uplink and downlink bands and provides a "lowest common denominator" telephone service. GSM comes as a base option in all modern basestations capable of using GSM bands.That ofc does not help you when your IMEI is not on the telco's whitelist.

author: bw2341
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2024, 12:35:50 pm
content: Quote from: Analog Kid on November 13, 2024, 12:39:27 amThe traditional copper phone network powered your phone directly from the central office which could be kilometres away. If there is sufficient backup power at the central office, your phone will work during a power outage.If this is replaced with a PON (passive optical network), the copper is replaced with glass and plastic. Even if you could run copper power wires in parallel, the CPE (customer-premises equipment) that has the phone port consumes thousands of times as much power as a bare telephone set.Some CPEs have built-in battery backups. They typically last for a few hours. The power consumption can be reduced by shutting off the Ethernet ports and Wi-Fi router.It's much more cost effective for the telecom companies to push for regulatory changes relieving themselves of the obligation of providing phone service during a power outage.

author: Kleinstein
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2024, 04:12:30 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on November 12, 2024, 01:17:14 amAt least in Germany much of the old copper is still there and used. However the signal is not the simple analog phone, but DSL or similar to use ISDN and later VOIP format. This needs more power at the user side and is thus no longer powered from the providers. Not sure if they provide as much backup for there side of the network as they used to.

author: bte
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2024, 05:22:07 pm
content: Quote from: Analog Kid on November 13, 2024, 12:39:27 amSince the curbside box has been upgraded here a few years ago to provide VDSL services, we don't get a dial tone in case of a power outage, even with our UPS powering the modem (i.e. no power, no landline phone). More than that, we don't get the dial tone after the power is back. I assume it takes a while for the box to boot and initialize all the hardware and the ports.