Any sensible upgrade to the 1054Z with build-in function gen? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: Rooster Cogburn
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2021, 12:54:35 am
content: Main reason I'd like a scope with build-in function generator is bench space. It's all very cramped. I'm currently looking at something like the UNI-T UTG962E because it's not a hulking box and USB powered, but build into the scope would be even nicer.I can't find any sensible option, though. I mostly looked at Siglent and Rigol devices because I don't trust the even cheaper brands like Hantek with a >=500EUR investment and stuff like Keysight, R&S etc. is out of my league.From Rigol there's the DS1074Z-S Plus, which I guess is basically the same as the 1054Z but with a function generator and the components for the the logic analyzer build-in. I assume I could unlock all the options for free and upgrade it to 100Mhz like the 1054Z. At 690EUR it's quite a bit more expensive. Probably not worth it just for the function generator, but maybe worth it for also the logic analyzer. But then the cable with the logic probes is like 240EUR. This makes it all rather unattractive. Is there any reason why the hookup for the logic probes is so expensive or is it basically a ripoff like charging 200 bucks for a serial decoder option?Siglent has the SDS1104X-E for 510EUR. Very attractive price, but the function generator is an external module, 1-channel 25Mhz and costs 165EUR plus software, which I assume can be unlocked for free somehow. The logic analyzer cable is 340EUR + software. Yikes!(btw, are Rigol & Siglent scopes build on basically the same core ICs and design? They just seem fairly similar in terms of features, price, screen, bandwitdh etc.)So it seems like there's not really any sensible option upgrading from the 'standard' 1054Z. I'm not paying nearly double the price just for a fairly basic function generator. With the logic analyzer it might make sense, but the extreme cost of the actual probes make that unattractive as well. Guess I'll just have to try finding a small separate function generator unit since there isn't a good option with it build-in?

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2021, 01:41:15 am
content: UTG962E is not USB-powered. It has USB for communication, but it uses external 5V/2A power supply. Otherwise it is a decent general purpose generator.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2021, 01:48:17 am
content: Logic analyzer cables do seem pretty high to me too, but much of the cost is actually justified. Many of them have each channel buffered and perhaps level shifted, and anything you want to buy will have a large number of quality mini-probes. Think about what it would cost to roll your own and you will still have sticker shock, but perhaps not quite as bad as the initial impression.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2021, 05:45:49 am
content: Quote from: Rooster Cogburn on November 01, 2021, 12:54:35 amYes yikes it certainly does seem expensive however most of the active LA circuitry is built into the external LA module instead of inside the scope which keeps the cost of the scope down at the expense of inflating the MSO module. Unfortunately you can't have your cake and eat it too !Whereas the FG module is certainly better priced especially as the license can be unlocked just as MSO. WiFi and BW can too.QuoteSimilar but no. Siglents use the Xilinx processor for a snappier UI experience and additional features that need additional processing capability.QuoteMaybe deeper study of datasheets in required.

author: Rooster Cogburn
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2021, 11:08:11 am
content: Quote from: ataradov on November 01, 2021, 01:41:15 amYes, but USB is 5V and it ships with a USB power supply and a USB-to-barrel cable, so I could just power it from the same multi USB PSU I have without adding another bulky mains cable and wall-wart.Quote from: CatalinaWOW on November 01, 2021, 01:48:17 am240-340EUR still seems like an awful low of money for a few test clips and maybe a few level shifters, nearly as much as a 1054Z in the case of the Siglent one. In any case, it makes buying any of the logic analyzer enabled scopes rather unattractive as this is just too much money for me.Quote from: tautech on November 01, 2021, 05:45:49 amOk, maybe I was too superficial. Just on the surface all these units are 4 channel, 100Mhz, 1Gsample/s units with the same 800x480 screen and they have similar pricing tiers for the function gen and logic analyzer upgrades etc. I don't actually know if I need anything beyond what the 1054Z can do, though. Would be nice to try out a Siglent so I can see how the UI compares!Since nobody really commented on the function generator thing, the main upgrade I was looking for, I assume it's probably not a good idea to upgrade a scope just for that. There just doesn't seem to be a unit where it wouldn't get something significantly cheaper and more capable with a standalone unit. Hopefully something compact like the UNI-T one will be a good option. Benchspace

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2021, 11:19:58 am
content: Quote from: Rooster Cogburn on November 01, 2021, 11:08:11 amThat is the right conclusion. Function generators inside a scope are handy every no and then but only worth the money if they come for free (or as part of a bundle). A standalone function generator usually can output much higher voltages and the UI is 100% tailored for function generator use. Also take a look at the Feeltech FY6900 function generator. It is in the same class as the UNI-T one but has an internal mains PSU.

author: TurboTom
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2021, 11:23:37 am
content: ...or rather spend a little more on a DG811, hack it and have the currently best bang-for-the-buck entry level AWG with fairly compact form factor that doesn't cut corners and works safely and reliably out-of-the-box.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2021, 11:35:59 am
content: Quote from: Rooster Cogburn on November 01, 2021, 11:08:11 amLet me say this again: Deeper study of datasheets required and manuals too.Inbuilt AWG's while being bench space preservers don't have the output capability of standalone units but they often provide adequate performance for modest needs however in the case of SDS1104X-E they can supply the stimulus for the Bode plot feature where it takes control of the AWG to sweep the DUT to characterize it. Only the SAG1021I and Siglent standalone AWG's work natively/seamlessly for Bode plot. Other brands can be coerced to work and there's info on that here on EEVblog.If that feature is useful to you and you still have space concerns a small timber frame/stand can be constructed to place the scope upon and the AWG module and for that matter the MSO module can be tucked neatly away underneath.

author: Rooster Cogburn
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2021, 12:33:00 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on November 01, 2021, 11:19:58 amOk, that's what I assumed. I've seen the large thread for the Feeltech, but if possible at all I'd like to avoid something this big. I have a small shelf above mys cope with space for things like multimeters and such and the UNI-T would fit perfectly there. A big box like the Feeltech - I'd have to shove it under my soldering station or something :/Quote from: tautech on November 01, 2021, 11:35:59 amI wasn't really looking for a better scope, so I didn't do much investigation of that part. I don't know about Bode plots but I'm sure I'll discover why I need them right after I bought something that doesn't have themI have space concerns and my scope is already on a monitor stand and I need the space below it to place tools and other stuff. And even if I didn't need the space there it's not high enough to fit the Feeltech under and I can't buy/build a higher one since right above the scope is a shelf with more stuff like multimeters and other test equipment etc. It's just really packed and I'd rather not add some big hulking box if there's also a more compact function generator option.Quote from: TurboTom on November 01, 2021, 11:23:37 amAt "Dimensions (W×H×D)237.4 mm × 97 mm × 268 mm" it's just way too large for me (it's like twice the depth of the scope...) and I don't want to spend 240EUR :/

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2021, 04:14:38 pm
content: Quote from: Rooster Cogburn on November 01, 2021, 11:08:11 amAs long as your USB power supply can deliver 2A. This is not a standard thing for USB.Also, my generator was shipped with a regular power supply with a molded permanently attached wire. It was from an earlier batch, so they may have changed what they ship. Or they may ship at random.

author: Rooster Cogburn
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2021, 04:30:47 pm
content: Quote from: ataradov on November 01, 2021, 04:14:38 pmThat's my experience, you buy like a soldering station or a signal generator or a microscope, they all look somewhat different and are all build different etc. :/

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2021, 05:31:33 pm
content: I don't like combination instruments. I get the space consideration, but a lot of modern test gear is quite compact, and the flexibility of separate instruments is worth it IMO.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2021, 05:54:17 pm
content: Quote from: Rooster Cogburn on November 01, 2021, 12:33:00 pmUni-T makes a tiny little function generator:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/uni-t-utg932utg962-200msas-function-arbitrary-waveform-generator-220394/

author: Rooster Cogburn
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2021, 06:58:36 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on November 01, 2021, 05:54:17 pmYep, that's the one we've been talking about! I'll have to read through the whole thread, but it seems pretty neat. Might buy that one!

author: TurboTom
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2021, 10:20:39 pm
content: No external analog modulation (AM or FM) on the UNI-T. So it cannot be used as a poor man's VCO either (though the usefulness of this mode is limited on most generators with analog modulation input as well due to the limited resolution of the ADC utilized). It depends on your application if that's a serious shortcoming or not.

author: alextwin007
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 02, 2021, 12:22:16 am
content: I am actually in a similar situation and might have some insight. I have both a scope with a built in function gen (Agilent/Keysight DSO-X 2014A) and the utg962, and have very limited space. I find that for most situations I end up using the built in function gen, it's already there ready on my bench and doesn't take up another outlet, it's my go to if it can do the job. Even though the utg has a better interface and is nicer to use, I find f. That being said I do find times where I end up taking out the Uni-t for different projects. The fact that you have the usb charger would eliminate the need for another outlet and reduce the activation energy of using it, but the utg962 is pretty sensitive to the quality of the supply so keep that in mind. I did have the built in signal gen before the utg962, and there were enough times when I needed more that I ended up getting the utg962.

author: Rooster Cogburn
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 02, 2021, 05:16:48 pm
content: Quote from: TurboTom on November 01, 2021, 10:20:39 pmAt least I have plenty of synthesizers with that feature :-) I honestly don't know if that'll be useful for me. I have a good number of short to medium term uses for a function generator, if I'll need this down the road, no idea.Quote from: alextwin007 on November 02, 2021, 12:22:16 amNice scope! :-) I use an Anker with 8 (?) USB-A ports to power various gizmos on my bench like a fan, a video signal generator, automatic iron tip cleaner etc. How will I know that the UNI-T doesn't like my PSU? In any case, that thing is my leading candidate but I'll need to find some time to read the entire thread here to know for sure that I want to buy it. I guess like for you bench space is very limited here. I just don't have much more space left as I need a certain minimum amount of space left for devices like a game console or amplifier or a large TV A board.