Considering a soldering station (Hakko FX888/888D?) - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / beginners

author: analogix
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 11, 2015, 08:26:29 am
content: After many years using a (nice but sometimes a bit weak) 25W (or was it 30W?) Goot soldering iron with a simple sponge holder I'm considering getting a replacement with a proper stand. I'm just a hobbyist making kits and DIY projects, but I want something that'll last and make the hobby more enjoyable.I'm thinking that something with an adjustable temperature will be useful for more versatility from soldering ICs and such, and in other instances cables, connectors etc. I've never used a soldering station before but understand that it has its advantages over my other upgrade option: a temperature adjustable soldering iron -this being a lower cost alternative. But from what I understand it doesn't control the temperature very well and isn't static-electricity shielded as a soldering station is, meaning the soldering iron can "shock" and damage sensitive parts.Price/quality wise it seems the Hakko FX888D is my best bet. I'm a little skeptical towards the "digital" membrane button controls though as my experience is they eventually break and you end up with yet another "throw away and buy a new one" device whereas with an older style "analog" knob controller you can at least replace a worn potmeter and you get a more immediate response instead of having to "dial in" the temperature every time you need to solder something. I believe the previous model from Hakko was the FX888 (without the "D" suffix) but is no longer available as far as I know (at least not new). Opinions or experiences on this?

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 11, 2015, 08:34:38 am
content: Yes FX-888 is discontinued, only fakes are still being sold. As you are in Europe, you might reconsider buying HAKKO as the price is 2x higher in Europe than in US. What is sold on ebay and other places at the price like in US, all are counterfeits. AFAIK one of the very few places in Europe where you can buy Hakko at relatively "reasonable" price is Batterfly (Italy).

author: analogix
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 11, 2015, 09:49:05 am
content: Yes, the price is twice of that in the U.S. here in Norway (US$ 200 (€ 183) with taxes, but plus local delivery -not sure how much) but buying a fake is out of the question.If I order from Batterfly in Italy I'll be paying around € 175 with taxes, shipping etc., so I'm not sure if it's worth it as it'll be a hassle in case of warranty issues, repairs etc.Tips and replacement parts shouldn't be a problem as the local agent has all that.So the high costs aside (Weller and other brands are even more expensive here with the exception of the Weller WHS-40 for around € 100, but I hear their red soldering stations like that one aren't in the class of their (high-end) blue models, and really are just "toys" and a waste of money): are the FX888D any good? How do they compare to the "analog" FX888? The cheapest ERSA I've found here so far (ERSA RDS-80) is around € 270 + local delivery), so for quality brands the Hakko seems to be the one, pricewise at least.

author: Deathwish
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 11, 2015, 10:06:42 am
content: I have to be honest, I have one of those digital cheap knock offs from china, but I dont trust digital and prefer analog so I am waiting for a genuine analog hakko to be offered on here, who knows. If that fails it is a case of making a clone of the Hakko board and using a genuine iron

author: Augustus
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 11, 2015, 11:33:28 am
content: Quote from: analogix on August 11, 2015, 09:49:05 amOh no, please stay well clear of the Ersa RDS 80, this thing is real crusty ancient technology with bad regulation, bad heat transfer and a cable between station and handpiece one would expect on an electric lawnmower, but not on a soldering iron... Sucks really bad... Don't even think about it...If you want to go Ersa, the I-Con nano would be a nice station. You can get in Germany from ersa-shop.com for 177,- € with free shipping. Amazon.de also has it. But since you're in Norge, shipping costs may be significant...

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 11, 2015, 03:45:12 pm
content: Quote from: analogix on August 11, 2015, 09:49:05 amI would have a really hard time to find RDS 80 for eur 270.First result in googlehttp://www.conrad.com/ce/en/product/813123/Soldering-station----digital----80-W----Ersa----RDS-80----150-up-to-450-But I won't recommend to buy it either, it is ancient and not ESD safe. If going for ERSA, buy I-CON PICO instead. Other than not being ESD safe (lacks earth connection in the mains plug), it is much better than FX-888D in every aspect.http://www.ersa-shop.com/ersa-icon-pico-elektronisch-geregelte-l%C3%B6tstation-zeitstandby-p-8705.htmlI guess it lacks earth lead only to not undercut their I-CON NANO which otherwise is almost the same thing (except the price). It can be easily modified though, internally hearing element is connected to the ground wire. Replace the power cable, attach earth wire to the internal ground and you have <almost> I-CON NANO.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2015, 10:04:35 am
content: Quote from: wraper on August 11, 2015, 03:45:12 pmAre you speaking hypothetically or have you actually done this and tested that it works? I ask because from what I've seen, the Pico uses a ceramic heating element with no exposed metal on it, and the handle is plastic too, so I don't see any way for it to become grounded if you add a grounded cord.The Nano uses a metal heating element. (I have the nano.)

author: Frost
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2015, 05:17:33 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on August 11, 2015, 03:45:12 pmThe RDS 80 is ESD safe, have a look on page 23 in the operations manual.

author: MarkM
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2015, 08:57:52 pm
content: I've been using the JBC CD-1bb for 4 years. Never let me down. More expensive, but well worth it IMHO. I actually ditched the FX888(original analog one) for the JBC due to needing more power.

author: drcheap
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: August 17, 2015, 06:00:53 am
content: Quote from: analogix on August 11, 2015, 08:26:29 amAs someone who fits that descriptionexactlyI can tell you that you will be very pleased with the Hakko regardless of the digital or analog variant.Since I was a bit late to the game on upgrading my soldering iron I ended up getting the digital model (888D). It is not as quick'n'easy to adjust as the analog (although can be close if you program in a few presets), it is a quite a nice setup. The real-time actual temp readout is nice as well, awesome to see how fast it heats up, especially when you are used to those crappy little fixed temp 25W sticks. And no need to performDave's red/green LED hacksince the digital unit includes the heating/idle indicator out of the boxThe quality of my soldering almost immediately went up at least an order of magnitude simply by replacing my generic fixed-temp crappy-tips iron with a good product like the Hakko 888. Then it got even better over time as I was able to further improve my technique when not hindered by the crap iron.

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2015, 01:36:31 am
content: Quote from: Augustus on August 11, 2015, 11:33:28 amGiven the prices on quality stations in the EU, this ^ is excellent advice. You'll get a lot more station for similar money as the FX-888D if you do.For whatever reason ersa-shop is an issue, you might also want to take a look atbeta-estore(direct link).

author: analogix
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2015, 08:53:38 am
content: Quote from: drcheap on August 17, 2015, 06:00:53 amHow well is it built? From photos it seems like it uses mebrane switches, and from experience I know they eventually break and can't be replaced with standard parts, but you have to rely on the manufacturer to have a new membrane front panel available.Also, do you have to press those buttons each time you switch the unit on, or does it automatically use the same temperature as last used, so the only tear and wear will be on the power switch? I don't see myself needing to change the temperature so often as I usually solder the same type of through-hole components.

author: analogix
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2015, 09:16:07 am
content: Quote from: nanofrog on August 18, 2015, 01:36:31 amWhat makes an Ersa soldering station better than the Hakko FX888D?I don't know too much about the brand Ersa, but believe it's a German quality brand like Weller?I can probably buy online from Germany, but with added shipping, import taxes etc. I'm not sure if it will be a "low cost" unit any longer and perhaps I could just as well buy it locally and enjoy warranty etc.Here in Norway I can get an Ersa RDS-80 for around € 250/US$ 280 (I found a cheaper place than the price I quoted in an earlier posting) or an Ersa IC1300A ("I-con Pico" I think?) for around € 213/US$ 235 including shipping/taxes etc. Other models are more expensive as far as I know.By the way, why do some of the "quality" soldering irons come with stands that have cleaning sponges (Ersa, Weller etc.) while others (Hakko) use brass wool or whatever it is? I've read that cleaning a hot tip with a wet sponge is a big no-no as it will get "shocked" because of the temperature difference and eventually damage the tip, but those brand names must know what they're doing.... Also some stands seem to be made of plastic/rubber etc. (Ersa RDS-80, Hakko FX888D etc.) while others (Ersa IC1300A etc.) are of metal which seems to make more sense to me both for damage and safety (emission of fumes etc. when heating the plastic/rubber). Any need to be concerned?

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2015, 09:38:20 am
content: The Ersas in question are just higher-power stations, so better for a wider range of situations. In addition, Ersa is based in Europe, so getting parts (like tips and extra tip holders) for them is trivial -- every electronics distributor has them, as does Amazon. In contrast, Hakko parts are quite hard to get here.Norway is like Switzerland (where I live) in that we aren't part of the EU, so import duty is a pain in the a$$. That's why I bought my i-Con Nano from Amazon.de: Amazon handles import duty, and removes EU VAT. Hakko was not available this way, so that did indeed play into my decision.Amazon.de wants €177 for the i-Con Nano. Subtract VAT and add shipping and duty and it'll end up at about €170 -- way cheaper than the prices you quoted.Honestly, I wouldn't buy an RDS 80 -- the cord to the handle is just way too thick for my taste. In contrast, I love the light, thin handle with light, thin cord of my Nano.Ersa is indeed a top brand like Weller. As best I can tell, Weller is entirely specialized on hand tools, while Ersa also produces mass-production soldering equipment like reflow ovens and wave soldering machines.

author: continuo
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2015, 12:00:28 pm
content: Quote from: analogix on August 18, 2015, 09:16:07 amThe thermal performance of the Ersa I-Con line is better. They use low mass tips with very good thermal coupling to the metallic heating element and a temperature sensor which is placed not far away from where the actual soldering takes place, right at the front of the heating element. The advantages of this design are rapid heat-up times, fast thermal recovery and good regulation. It's comparable to Wellers "Fast Response" technology irons. Certainly not on par with JBCs cartridge tip irons but really not to far off and with the advantage of getting three i-tool tips for roughly the same price as only one JBC cartridge. Ergonomics too, of course, just compare the little i-tool pencil to that clunky 888D wand... Don't get me wrong, the 888D is, by no means, a bad soldering station, especially if you can get it for a hundred bucks, but it is really a bit outdated nowadays

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2015, 12:06:54 pm
content: Quote from: analogix on August 18, 2015, 09:16:07 amSummary:Shorter tip-to-grip distance, which gives you better control over the iron (always useful IMHO, but particularly so regarding SMD components).The iron itself is more ergonomic/comfortable, which will make longer work sessions a breeze. It's also very light (stated as 30g), which plays into this as well.Noticeably better performance(more efficient tip & element interface design + more power). You'll experience this in the form of shorter heat up times (9 - 10 second range from room temp to 350C), faster recovery between joints, and particularly as you get into situations when soldering on more layers and/or ground planes (i.e. situations where the FX-888D can't melt the solder while the Nano will make the joint for the same conditions).Additional features vs. the FX-888D (datasheet,catalog.pdfs). You'd have to create an account to download the manual atKurtzErsa. In particular, you'd get setback capabilities (drop to a lower temp for x minutes and/or auto-off as you wish) when the iron is inserted in the stand (or you're totally still long enough) via the motion sensor in the iron itself.It truly is quite a bit better than the FX-888D (shame the Hakko isn't the bargain it is in North America). Batterfly has improved matters in the EU regarding FX-888D pricing, but the I-Con Nano is still the best value in the EU market IMHO (price/performance ratio blows the FX-888D away).Quote from: analogix on August 18, 2015, 09:16:07 amYes it's a German brand.Some of their production is in China (Pico & RDS80;source), but that's not exactly unheard of. Main issue would be if QC has slipped as a result, but this doesn't seem to be a problem with the Nano according to owners here in the forum. FWIW, the tips are German, and the quality is there (this is where quality matters most IME). Quality tips + the setback features + basic maintenance (tinning) can keep a tip usable for 10+ years, so very low consumables costs.Quote from: analogix on August 18, 2015, 09:16:07 amThese prices are too high. Try Amazon.de recommended bytooki(not sure about the EU, but here in the US, do watch for being shipped a return; they're notorious for that stunt here IME). If for some reason that doesn't work, try directly from ersa's estore, or beta-estore last (all the previous links we provided).Quote from: analogix on August 18, 2015, 09:16:07 amThe "shock" of a damp sponge is how it actually works (shock breaks up the oxide layer, which is then wiped off). Works very well for lead based alloys as the temperature difference between set point and after cleaning is low enough it doesn't fracture the iron plating on the tip, and the tip temperature is able to recover in the time between leaving the sponge and touching the next joint.The issue with sponges are the result of the higher soldering temperatures associated with lead-free solder alloys. In this case, the temperature difference that occurs between set temp & after using a damp sponge is larger than before. So much so that it causes both a longer recovery time between cleaning and performing the next joint, as well as fracture the iron plating on the tip as well. Which is important, as it exposes the copper in the tip to molten solder, which will erode it out rather quickly, turning your tip to scrap (way shorter lifespan when this happens, and is expensive if you're replacing tips often).Using the brass wool solves this issue, as it doesn't generate the large temperature difference at the higher working temperatures needed for lead-free alloys. Yet still does a fine job of cleaning the tip (abrades it off, but don't damage the tips, as brass is softer than iron; they're also covered in a dry flux). So you get faster recovery between cleanings and longer tip life. It also quite happily cleans lead based alloys as well, and you don't need to worry about keeping distilled/deionized water on hand for sponges.As per why manufacturers include what they do in their sets (i.e. sponge only for any station sold in todays RoHS required world), that may be for cost reasons rather than technical ones. Brass wool may be offered as an option rather than included for example (some of Ersa's are pictured with sponges, such as the RDS80, while others only come with brass wool, aka dry sponge, such as the i-Con Nano). Weller does this too (I've dealt with this personally).Although I have both on hand, I primarily use the brass wool (fits my lazy nature, as I don't have to mess with wetting the sponge). If you get both, try both, and see which you like best (particularly if you're primarily soldering with lead based alloys as is generally recommended on the forum). Otherwise, just use the brass wool that comes with the Nano (amazingly, the lowest end Hakko comes with both).Either way, I wouldn't worry about it, as the wool really does do an excellent job with either.The rubber/rubberized plastics used by the big name manufacturers for stands is proven as well. So I wouldn't be concerned over the stand supplied with the i-Con Nano.Hope this mess helps.

author: GreyWoolfe
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 18, 2015, 12:18:02 pm
content: +1 for the brass wool. I got the brass wool with the Hakko FX-951. I like it much better than the sponge. I don't have to keep a water bottle on the bench anymore, I don't spill water as I did with the 936. The wool cleans just a good as the sponge without the negative effects. In fact, I ordered a spare to have on hand.

author: continuo
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2015, 12:42:03 pm
content: Quote from: nanofrog on August 18, 2015, 12:06:54 pmThey never did this to me and from what I read in German forums it's apparantely not a real problem on Amazon.de. If you return something to them and it was opened, they usually resell it on their "Warehouse Deals" platform for a reduced price and clearly labeled as "used".

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2015, 05:05:25 pm
content: I bought the US Hakko and run if off a 110V transformer. It works perfectly and it's still cheaper to buy a transformer+a US Hakko than a European Hakko.Other people here have bought US Hakkos and converted them to 230V by replacing the internal 24V transformer.

author: analogix
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2015, 06:40:15 pm
content: Quote from: Deathwish on August 11, 2015, 10:06:42 amYeah, I much prefer analog control as well.Have you heard about/considered the JapaneseGoot RX-711?Though they seem more common and popular in Asia I foundseveral online stores selling them around the world which I posted about here.Toolboom in Hong Kong has them for HK$ 1358(€ 158/US$ 175) including free shipping (though they're out of stock at the moment). I'm considering one myself, but with import duties, taxes etc. I'll end up at € 212/US$ 235 instead... then again it might be a better idea to buy into a brand which is sold locally as well in case of repair, extra tips etc...Photos attached below borrowed from Goot's website.

author: analogix
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2015, 07:05:57 pm
content: Thanks for all the info regarding Ersa vs. other brands etc.I obviously need to take several things into consideration such as spare parts and servicing being available locally. No matter what I buy it's going to be expensive (either buying locally (when the prices end up about the same as buying from abroad) or ordering from another country) with all the taxes, import duties, shipping etc. My options so far:Hakko FX800D (€ 183/US$ 200) local online purchaseErsa i-con Nano (€ 260/US$ 288) Ersa online store in GermanyGoot PX711 (€ 212 /US$ 235) Toolbom online store in Hong KongFinally there are the low cost alternatives of temperature adjustable soldering irons such as:Goot PX201(€ 74/US$ 82) Toolboom online store in Hong Kong... and a couple of other similar soldering irons from Hakko etc. for around the same priceNot soldering stations but they must certainly be a step up from a simple 25W Goot soldering iron? I'd like to hear from other people's experiences with these compared to soldering stations. My guess is that you get the temperature control of a soldering station, but probably a much thicker cable (i.e. more difficult to hold) and a similar feel and portability of my existing 25W soldering iron, but miss out on the ESD protection of proper soldering stations.... Maybe it's a more intermediate option when upgrading from a normal soldering iron. Opinions anyone?

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2015, 07:12:42 pm
content: Quote from: nanofrog on August 18, 2015, 12:06:54 pmThis is not true of the i-Con Nano; it uses only temperature drop to determine whether the iron is in use or not. Only the "big" i-Con series has the accelerometer. The Nano looks at whether there are temperature changes indicative of use, and if there aren't for the set time, it dials back a little bit first, and then a lot later. In the setback mode, if it then senses a sudden plunge in temperature (i.e. from touching it to a joint), then it wakes up. When in sleep mode, you have to press a button to wake it.Quote from: nanofrog on August 18, 2015, 12:06:54 pmMy i-Con Nano says "Made in Germany" on it.Quote from: nanofrog on August 18, 2015, 12:06:54 pmTo be clear, the stand included with the i-Con Nano (and many of the larger i-Con models) is rubber with a ceramic insert. Normally, the iron isn't in any contact with the rubber, as the handle is held by the ceramic insert. The hot tip would really only contact the rubber when cleaning the tip on the brass wool.Quote from: analogix on August 18, 2015, 07:05:57 pmAgain, why is Amazon.de not an option for you?? The i-Con Nano would be €149+shipping+duty, which likely comes out to about €170 as it did for me, ordering from Switzerland (which also isn't EU). Way, way less than the Ersa online store, which would also be subject to shipping+duty.

author: analogix
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2015, 07:47:00 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on August 18, 2015, 07:12:42 pmSure, Amazon.de is an option as well, but I ended up with a totally different cost of € 212 from them (I went through the whole ordering process before actually paying), and that's without the taxes (25%) and import duties to be paid when I receive the package here. The total cost will then be around € 280/US$ 310 which is more than the € 260/US$ 288 from the Ersa online store. Seems like a quality soldering station though, and "Made in Germany" instead of the usual China doesn't make it any worse

author: TheAmmoniacal
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 18, 2015, 07:56:20 pm
content: analogix, just keep in mind that there are suppliers in Norway too, they can often be a bit cheaper after you add VAT+shipping+import fee etc.A good source is here:https://www.elfaelektronikk.no/elfa3~no_no/elfa/init.do?toc=19658&orderBy=PRICE_SORTER&sortOrder=asc&filterClause=&pageSize=10Those prices are without VAT, so you will be paying 25% more. Free shipping though.

author: analogix
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2015, 08:27:09 pm
content: Elfa is quite a pricey place to go in my experience (didn't know about the free shipping though -I tried ordering a multimeter from a week ago but I didn't get a free shipping option so perhaps it's for goods over a certain cost), but I clicked on the link in your post anyway and came across a clearance sale for a Weller WSD-81 for NOK 892 (€ 97/US$ 108) with taxes while the normal price was NOK 3355 (around € 367/US$ 407) so that's a huge saving, but is it worth getting compared to the ones discussed so far (the Ersa Nano seems to be the best choice judging by the comments I've received so far).UPDATE: Bummer!Just tried to order and was told they didn't have it any longer.

author: eilize
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2015, 08:45:13 pm
content: "Hakko FX800D (€ 183/US$ 200) local online purchase"something wrong there.you say you take the batterfly price,but with 25%vat + 28,80€shipping, your fx888d 'll cost 154eurothey sell it at 98euro atmyour vat is base on the 98euro, not on the full priceand if you buy something else, the shipping stay the same(good reason to buy some tip, lead and so on)i'm not a pro hakko, i've one (i prefer pace...not the same kind of price ^^), but it's the reason, i've buy onefor the same quality you need to spend 50-100euro moreand as hobbyist, you 'll need only to buy somle tip..you don't use it too much ,not a reason to broke it before years

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2015, 10:08:40 pm
content: Quote from: analogix on August 18, 2015, 07:47:00 pmOK, so I just tried it myself, choosing the address for some hotel in Oslo. I also got the €212, but it's composed of about €21 express shipping and €42 import duty (remember, that's composed primarily of VAT) deposit. This means you will NOT have to pay anything more on receipt. (That's the whole point of the AmazonGlobal program.) In fact, if the actual duty exceeds the deposit Amazon collects,they pay for it. (And if the actual duty is less than the deposit, you'll receive a refund in a month or two! I got €15 back on my Nano!!)So yourmaximumprice via Amazon is €212, and it may end up being less!!

author: analogix
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2015, 10:23:21 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on August 18, 2015, 10:08:40 pmAha! So that's what the import duty collected by Amazon was for.I've never ordered anything from abroad where that was included but always had to pay VAT and import duties when actually receiving the package. For some reason I could only choose express shipping, so no option there. Well, it should be a lot cheaper than buying locally in any case! Thanks for your suggestion and clearing up the confusion

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2015, 10:35:00 pm
content: AmazonGlobal is one of the most awesome things ever for someone in a country with awful import fees. My example: Switzerland's VAT is very low, but the f••king Swiss Post charges anywhere from about €12-50simply to calculate how much VAT/duty you owe!!This makes ordering small packages punitively expensive. (Nobody knows why the charges vary seemingly arbitrarily.) AmazonGlobal means the entire customs process is already done, the parcel service or post simply delivers it, removing all uncertainty from the equation.Not sure why Amazon can only use Express to Norway (I noticed that, too), but even with that it still ends up being a better deal than anything else.Let me know how you like your Nano!

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2015, 10:37:31 pm
content: P.S. I'd recommend adding a few tips to the order while you're at it. I suggest the 3.2mm chisel, and if you do any SMD, you might want one of the PowerWell tips. (I've been considering a 5mm chisel as well, for huge joints.) I'd also suggest getting an extra tip holder (the screw on ferrule that holds the tip on) for each tip, simply because they're a pain in the ass to remove from the tips, and because having a tip holder on each tip lets you change tips while the iron is hot. If you need amazon.de URLs, let me know and I'll dig them up from my orders.

author: timofonic
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2015, 10:53:46 pm
content: I wonder if there are ERSA distributors here in Spain...http://www.amazon.es/i-CON-Nano-Estación-de-soldadura/dp/B002MQLJ46http://es.farnell.com/ersa/i-con-nano/estaci-n-de-soldadura-60w-eu-plug/dp/1727686http://es.rs-online.com/web/p/estaciones-de-soldadura/6699142/http://www.tme.eu/es/details/ersa-rds80/estaciones-de-soldadura/ersa/http://www.tme.eu/es/details/ersa-0ic1200a/estaciones-de-soldadura/ersa/0ic1200a/http://www.tme.eu/es/details/ersa-rds80/estaciones-de-soldadura/ersa/http://www.tme.eu/es/details/ersa-i-conpico/estaciones-de-soldadura/ersa/i-con-pico/I-con pico? Nano? RDS80? I got a bit confused...

author: eilize
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2015, 11:36:51 pm
content: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/ersa-icon-pico-vs-icon-nano!-is-esd-protection-important-soldering-station/nano 60w no esd<-crappy one, made in china ...just buy a velleman, same quality :p(ok i exagerate ...a litle ^^)rds80 80w not directly esd(you need to bind the port to ground)pico 80w esd

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 18, 2015, 11:45:27 pm
content: Quote from: eilize on August 18, 2015, 11:36:51 pmNono is ESD safe and not crappy. Pico is not ESD safe. AFAIK only Pico is made in China and BTW both of them are of the same 80W power. "Velleman of the same quality"

author: MarkM
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2015, 12:18:08 am
content: Just wanted to add to my other post. I did BGA rework for 4 or so years awhile back. I was going through those cheap hakko fx888 tips likes crazy. It's easy to say that maybe this guy just doesn't take care of his tips, but after 4 years I'm still using the original tips that I got with the JBC(and some others). I went through a few other stations as well and gave them away. IMHO it's well worth the money to have proper equipment. I hope to be using this in another 10+ years.

author: timofonic
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2015, 12:46:28 am
content: Quote from: wraper on August 18, 2015, 11:45:27 pmSo what about RDS80?This is confusing, because Nano is specified as 60W by many distributors.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2015, 01:40:23 am
content: The RDS80 is old technology with a fat, heavy iron connected with thick, inflexible cable. I wouldn't recommend it.Ersa lists the Nano, Pico and RDS80 all as 80W, but for the Nano and Pico, the detail page (and the bottom of the unit) lists the output power rating as 68W.But regardless of what is, the consensus is that the i-Con Nano is the best of the three, hands down.

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2015, 06:11:59 am
content: Quote from: tooki on August 18, 2015, 07:12:42 pmInteresting (was under the impression it was there from other sources here in the forum).What you describe puts it more on equal footing as a WD1 using an unconnected stand. Add the connected stand, and the user gets full-on setback features.Quote from: tooki on August 18, 2015, 07:12:42 pmI knew the Nano was made in Germany (assumed the source link would solve any confusion).Quote from: tooki on August 18, 2015, 07:12:42 pmDidn't know the portion where the iron actually sits was ceramic, but the iron's element & tip appear to float in free air by design based on the photos I've seen (same with the WDH series of stands for example). I suspect the rubber used is similar to that in 2 layer ESD mats (neoprene for example), as it can take molten solder & being touched with an iron's tip for short periods without causing damage.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2015, 09:55:36 am
content: Quote from: nanofrog on August 19, 2015, 06:11:59 amKinda. The i-Con series does not have any connected stands. The i-Con models other than Pico and Nano use an accelerometer in the handle to determine whether the iron is in use. The Pico and Nano look at the temperature stability of the tip to determine that it's idle (see page 10 ofthe Nano manual.)Oh, it might be good to add that the manual is absolutely barebones; the real information is in the manual to the software used for writing configurations to a microSD card. You can download the software from the website, but I've attached the software manual below.Quote from: nanofrog on August 19, 2015, 06:11:59 amI would assume that, too, since this stand is included with all ESD-safe i-Con models. Indeed, the tip is free-floating. (Also, the stand comes with 4 spikes to hold tips. I can post a pic if someone wants.)Just a note, many of the pictures on the Ersa website (and in the manual) depict an all-rubber stand, but I don't think that stand ever made it into the wild. The i-Con Pico ships with a silly wire coil stand; the Nano and above ALL ship with the rubber-and-ceramic stand.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 19, 2015, 10:05:07 am
content: Quote from: nanofrog on August 19, 2015, 06:11:59 amThat rubber is heat resistant. I have older version A50 holders which are completely rubber, without any ceramic inserts. They are 6 years old and nothing happened to them despite hitting the rubber with hot iron all of the time.

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2015, 10:31:36 am
content: Quote from: tooki on August 19, 2015, 09:55:36 amRegarding a connected stand, I was talking about those used with the Weller WD series, not Ersa (I use a WDH20T). BTW,BTW, thanks for the Nano's manuals.Quote from: wraper on August 19, 2015, 10:05:07 amGood to know they really will hold up well.

author: nemrod
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: August 19, 2015, 08:50:04 pm
content: No one seems to have mentioned the FX-950---the analogue version of the FX-951. It's not discontinued yet but seems to be outgoing in some places so I've seen it around significantly discounted, for only 150€ (it's normally over 300€, in a whole different price bracket than the FX-888D). I got one recently from Kretsteknik in Sweden:http://www.yourvismawebsite.com/kretsteknik-nordic-ab/shop/product/lodstation-hakko-fx950Normally they don't deliver outside Sweden I think, but it's worth a try shooting them an e-mail asking if they can deliver it to you (I had contact with their support and they're quite accomodating), or to look around for an alternative source that's got it discounted. Definitely worth the price, only slightly more than a FX-888D.Needless to say I'm extremely pleased, and what a joy it is with a proper analogue knob, phew. Only downside compared to the FX-888D is that the wool cleaner is an option (as is the stop&go-stand, but with the extremely fast start-up I find I can just turn it off or turn the knob down if I'm going to leave it for a minute or more), and that tips are more expensive since they're integrated with the heating element. On the plus side it's higher quality, has a smaller pen with the awesome (really, I love it) tip change system with different-coloured handles, it gets to 350C in 10-20 seconds, and of course that it's analogue.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2015, 10:33:00 pm
content: What advantage does that model have over the i-Con Nano? (I mean, Nano has 9 sec heating, cheap tips, light handle...)

author: MarkM
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2015, 05:07:08 am
content: Check the prices on the tips for the 950/951. Yikes. I looked at those before I bought the JBC. They use the same tips and technology as those CSI/AOYUE 2900 IIRC.I've heard that the ERSA stations are pretty nice, but I really don't know about the i-can nano after looking at the specs and the price. I have no clue why they aren't using cartridge tips. The heat up time should tell you something about the thermal response, which after watching some videos doesn't seem to be any better than the FX888D. I'm sure it works, but for the price? Even the more expensive ones look to have the same style tips.Might sound like a fanboy here, but for a few more bucks you can get a much more powerful one with quick change, long lasting tips. The only downside to the entry level JBC is that you can't use any attachments like desoldering or tweezers without hacking. I haven't tried.None of this is exaggerated in this video:

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2015, 09:45:28 am
content: Quote from: MarkM on August 20, 2015, 05:07:08 amI couldn't tell you which of the many "which station should I buy" threads I've seen this posted in, but people who have used both the FX888/888D and the i-Con Nano consistently say that the Ersa is far superior. For sure the Ersa can heatfarfaster than the FX888D, using the Ersa's default heating mode. If you want it to heat more gently (so as to prevent overshoot) you can change the setting.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 20, 2015, 10:03:47 am
content: Quote from: MarkM on August 20, 2015, 05:07:08 amBecause they are very good even without cartridge tips and tips are cheap. You'll think twice before buying like 5 tips for JBC.QuoteAre you kidding?

author: eilize
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2015, 10:26:41 am
content: you are a hobbyist, not a professional who do soldering 8h/24so you don't really care about heat up timei want to say 80% of time a unregulated soldering tool at 15-30$ is enoughthe 20% are big via, smd(you can use a heat gun and a stencil)you can cut your tip with sandpaper (to have a chisel form) and use some steel wool instead of these vulgar sponge, it will yet do the job(and may last month or years)crappy?but realisticso a soldering station is a gift more much than a requirementQuotei'm just curious, it's not a troll !!!but in what?

author: analogix
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2015, 10:46:14 am
content: Quote from: tooki on August 18, 2015, 10:35:00 pmOuch!!!Hearing that we shouldn't complain as we "only" have to pay € around 15 for them to calculate that, but only if the value of the item + shipping amounts to more than approx € 38. And of course the 25% VAT.If the total value is less you don't have to pay any VAT or be charged the € 15 either.QuoteTrue, a good deal.I'll let you know if/when I decide to get a soldering station. After reading all the comparison the Ersa Nano seems to be the best investment for a quality "low cost" unit. I do like theGoot RX-711with its analog control knob, digital readout and professional looks (sure beats the "toys 'r us" appearance of the Hakko FX888D) but in the end it's a tool where useability, reliability, cost (and availability) of spare parts is more important -and the Ersa Nano doesn't look half bad either. Finally it's compact and doesn't take up a whole lot of desk space, which I like.But as this is still quite a bit of money for a hobby-investment I'd still like to hear pros/cons of a soldering station (like the Ersa Nano) vs. a quality soldering iron with temperature adjustments as I suggested earlier (my soldering so far has been through-hole parts, sockets, connectors etc. (nothing special in other words, just general old fashioned electronics), but I have no experience with SMD parts though I may eventually have to dive into that as well since that seems to become the norm for even a lot of DIY electronics).Maybe such a soldering iron is "good enough" for my use, but it may also be "good for a short while, but after that I will need a soldering station after all", in which case I'd rather take the plunge, save my money by skipping the better soldering iron and just buy the soldering station. Confused...As for tips: I've never really used anything apart from "sharp pencil" tips with my soldering irons -which tips should I choose for what type of work? I assume the flatter ones will conduct more heat and be better for soldering cables and big stuff while the "sharp pencil" tips might be better for delicate electronic components or electronics in general?

author: GreyWoolfe
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 20, 2015, 11:05:37 am
content: I use mostly chisel tips. I have sizes ranging from .8 mm to 3.2 mm. Conical tips don't work for me, they don't seem to deliver the heat necessary. That was with my Hakko 936, I now have much better soldering irons, Hakko FX-951 and Metcal MX 500P dual channel. Bent conical tips seem very popular with the Metcal. I may have to do a reevaluation and see.

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2015, 01:20:05 pm
content: Quote from: analogix on August 20, 2015, 10:46:14 amI'd say a fewChisels; say 1.6, 2.4, and 3.2mm to start, though they offer a lot more should you need them (these will handle most work). Check to see if a tip is included with the station (some brands do, some don't).Bent conical (good for tacking corners and bodge wires, pulling out bridges from drag soldering, and even soldering passives)Drag soldering tip (different names, but Ersa just uses the letter W). You can also substitute a hoof or knife if you don't have one, or even use a chisel (need a little extra skill to master).You can do a lot with this little selection IMHO, and it helps keep the price down to get started.Plenty of other profiles of course, and they all have their place. Download a copy of Ersa's iTip catalog and see for yourself.Also,Hakko's Tip Page(i.e. by shape or operation) can help illustrate what the different profiles can be used for.

author: MarkM
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2015, 07:51:18 pm
content: @wraper I wasn't kidding about that. Anyways, I must have looked at the wrong place. I see the i-can nano is around half the price of the JBC. Scratch what I said earlier. The first place I saw one it was like $350, which would be rough. I thought this one was around the same price as the JBC. I could see $250 or so. I paid something like $450 for the JBC, but I was using it for work.

author: analogix
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2015, 05:18:08 pm
content: Quote from: nanofrog on August 20, 2015, 01:20:05 pmGood advice. I didn't find the iTip catalog from Ersa (there was some other interesting info in theircatalog sectionthough), but the Hakko tip page was informative.

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2015, 04:22:49 am
content: Quote from: analogix on August 22, 2015, 05:18:08 pmThis might help (102 series).i-Tool Standard Tipsi-Tool Special Tips102 series tipson Ersa's site (nice photos of the standard series).

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2015, 12:33:57 pm
content: Quote from: analogix on August 20, 2015, 10:46:14 amI agree with the others: Chisel tips are the best everyday tips.I've had soldering irons with those awful blunt conical tips, with tapered pencil tips, with angled face tips, and with chisels. And hands-down, for everyday stuff, the chisel is the best because you can have a whole surface touching the lead, and the whole edge touching the pad.The i-Con Nano comes with a 1.6mm chisel tip, which is a great everyday tip for PCB work. I also bought a 3.2mm chisel (better for larger connections), a 0.4mm chisel (not as useful as I thought it would be), and a 2.4mm PowerWell drag-soldering tip, which is great. I've considered getting a really big chisel (5 or 6.5mm) for things like soldering to heavy chassis metal. The desoldering wick blades Ersa sells look awesome, but they're really expensive.I suggest getting an extra tip fastener (see the last link in the post above) for each tip you buy, so that you can swap easily, even with the iron hot.

author: pallee
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 12, 2015, 08:09:34 pm
content: I am in the same boat as OP, that is comming from 30w cheap-o sticks and wanting an upgrade (not counting a butane powered iron/torch that i use for various hobby projects).As of now I am looking at two stations:fx-888D and an extra 2.4D tip frombatterflywhich ends up at roughly 150 EUR including shipping and vat/tax .Fx-950 (2.4D tip as standard) from a swedish reseller (as i live in sweden) for roughly 180 EUR shipped.As a comparison the cheapest temp controled no-name station that can be found in a reputable store in sweden is about 60-70 EUR.What is your advice?

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 12, 2015, 10:48:14 pm
content: Quote from: pallee on September 12, 2015, 08:09:34 pmBetween the two Hakko stations, there's a substantial performance upgrade with the FX-950 (cartridge tip technology).The tips for the FX-950 are more expensive than those for the FX-888D (T18 & T15 series respectively), but not horribly so. Their tips are of excellent quality and will last you a very long time if cared for properly* (not unheard of for tips to last over 10 years).So if you can handle the additional costs, the FX-950 would definitely be the way to go IMHO.* Just keep the tip clean and tinned.You might also want to consider the Ersa I-Con Nano if you'd rather have simpler, less expensive tips (plated copper) for the same/similar money and performance as the FX-950.FWIW, Ersa offers very good value in the EU/UK market from what I've seen (lots of discussion about this model if you search).

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 13, 2015, 11:27:45 am
content: Quote from: pallee on September 12, 2015, 08:09:34 pmErsa i-Con Nano for €180.

author: pallee
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 13, 2015, 12:32:02 pm
content: Quote from: nanofrog on September 12, 2015, 10:48:14 pmQuote from: tooki on September 13, 2015, 11:27:45 amThanks for the advice!My upper budget limit is already stretched to ~180 EUR including shipping and as i cannot find the i-Con nano for less than190-200177 EUR not including shipping I don't see that as an option.The pico on the other hand would be within my budget... I bet this question has been asked a million times, but what is the difference between the nano and the pico, apart from the nano being esd-safe?Also, what advantage would the nano/pico have the over the fx-950 (or even the fx-888D)?Cheers!EDIT: found theamazon.dein in an earlier post for 177 EUR (still to much for me though)...

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 13, 2015, 12:56:24 pm
content: Quote from: pallee on September 13, 2015, 12:32:02 pmEur 177 (with German vat) on amazon.de, shipping shouldn't be to steep too. With Latvian 1.21% VAT + shipping to Latvia it becomes EUR 192.69. As Sweden have a bit higher VAT and amazon uses that of destination country, will be a bit more expensive. Though shipping likely will be cheaper. Anyway, shouldn't exceed EUR 200 delivered.http://www.amazon.de/ERSA-i-CON-digitale-L%C3%B6tstation-0IC1200A/dp/B002MQLJ46/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1442148439&sr=8-1&keywords=i-con+nano

author: pallee
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 13, 2015, 01:12:51 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on September 13, 2015, 12:56:24 pmThanks for pointing that out(just re-read this thread and found the link, should have read it more carefully the first time...)

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 13, 2015, 02:06:21 pm
content: I guess the best price for you would be from herehttp://www.ersa-shop.com/ersa-icon-nano-elektronisch-geregelte-l%C3%B6tstation-standby-antistatisch-p-364.htmlIIRC they used German VAT when I ordered, therefore good for your case. In total should be EUR 190.80 delivered to Sweden.

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 13, 2015, 08:26:56 pm
content: Quote from: pallee on September 13, 2015, 12:32:02 pmThe Nano has better thermal regulation & faster thermal response (proper thermocouple embedded in the heating element assy. instead of just measuring the resistance of the heating element as they do in the Pico).Additional features on the Nano, particularly regarding setback & auto shut-off (helps extend tip life & is also a safety feature).The threads on the heating element are metal on the Nano, plastic on the Pico (complaints the plastic threads get damaged easily). Other reliability issues for the Pico as well IIRC (error coded 4 & 8 reported on one for example).The Nano is made in Germany, while the Pico is made in China, so they're not the same as one would expect (different irons, control boards, and made of non-ESD compliant materials, not just missing the tip connection to ground).Quote from: pallee on September 13, 2015, 12:32:02 pmThe Pico has cheap tips only, and it's negatives really should put it out of consideration entirely IMHO.The Nano however, not only uses less expensive tips, it also offers similar performance and is comparable on features.Tip cost is why I mentioned this station, as cartridge tips can be a tad pricey for hobbyists (i.e. ~4 - 6EUR each instead of 14 - 17EUR for common profiles). And that was before you mentioned you're rather budget conscious ATM.So you'll understand if I'm under the impression the Nano is the better fit in your case, as the station is a "hurt once, but last for years" situation, while the consumables/tip costs are easy to absorb.

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 13, 2015, 08:43:55 pm
content: QuoteThat all sounds good, except for the part about "low mass tips". Reducing the sensor distance from the tip is good. Increasing power is good. But in my experience with Weller's Fast Response technology, none of that actually makes up for the low thermal mass of the tips, in practice.I can run my Hakko at lower temps than the Welled WD on the same SMD boards. That equals less tip cleaning.I've never seen an Ersa. But the only thing I like about the WD is the auto standby. The shorter tip to handle distance should be nice, in theory, but it doesn't make any different to me. And none of that even comes close to mattering when the stand is so fickle you have to look at it to get the iron back in place.

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 13, 2015, 08:51:25 pm
content: QuoteThe Hakko 888 stand is one of the main reasons it is on my bench, over a couple of other irons that are fairly similar in other ways. The iron goes in very easily and doesn't wiggle/droop in the stand. Working under lamp/scope, you don't have to stop and look to put down or pick up the iron. Along with tip selection/quality, the holder is probably the most important feature in an iron, AFAIC.And it's not plastic. It's die cast zinc/aluminum alloy, as far as I can tell. The two different colors, yellow and blue, are two separate cast parts. The yellow iron holder slides/mates into the bottom blue half. I have dropped this holder many times, and it doesn't break. Nor does it get bent or gouge the floor like a sheet steel metal holder might. It's all curves/rounded edges. It's just big enough to do what it needs to do and be completely stable. It's made to work by itself, to be placed exactly where you need it, for the particular job at hand. It has integrated wool holder and sponge. If you ever get a hakko clone with the same tips/handle shape, you might want to buy an 888 stand. The stand is a work of art.I've had a 75W Xytronics iron that takes a T18 tip. AFAIC, the only practical difference was the iron holder. I'd rather use a Xytronics iron with the Hakko stand, than the other way around.

author: pallee
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 13, 2015, 09:18:16 pm
content: Quote from: nanofrog on September 13, 2015, 08:26:56 pmThat was a nice, compact and informative answer, thank you!From what I can gather I should skip the 950 due to the high cost of the tips and set for the nano. So basically I am deciding between the more feature rich nano and the cheaper 888D. (the looks of the 888D is growing on me.)

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 13, 2015, 10:28:07 pm
content: Quote from: pallee on September 13, 2015, 09:18:16 pmYou're welcome.Quote from: pallee on September 13, 2015, 09:18:16 pmIf it were me, I'd opt for the Nano over the FX-950 (would take the FX-951 to really get closer regarding the feature compliment).And between the Nano and FX-888D, there's no comparison. The Nano is a noticeably better performer and has more features. And unusually, doesn't come at much of a premium based on what you've posted for pricing.FWIW, on single or double sided boards, you wouldn't be fussed between the performance of FX-888D. But it's on joints that draw off a lot of heat, such as those over a ground plane on 4+ layer boards, that the performance differences will truly matter (i.e. FX-888D will struggle or even fail to perform a joint without preheating).And given the sense I got from your posts were you mention budget, the Nano seems to make the best sense (performance + financial).

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 13, 2015, 11:48:02 pm
content: Quote from: nanofrog on September 13, 2015, 08:26:56 pmPicohastemperature sensor, it's not measuring heater resistance.QuoteWhat does this mean? Tips are exactly the same as for all other i-con soldering stations - 102 series.Major differences of pico - different stand it comes with by default, not ESD safe, made in China, not Germany. Otherwise more or less the same, including heat up time, power.

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 14, 2015, 02:05:31 am
content: Quote from: wraper on September 13, 2015, 11:48:02 pmCame from the following:QuoteSource.Quote from: wraper on September 13, 2015, 11:48:02 pmIn regard to the Pico's advantages over the FX-950ue.

author: GreyWoolfe
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 14, 2015, 02:21:06 am
content: Quote from: nanofrog on September 13, 2015, 10:28:07 pm+1 on the FX-951. I am a fairly new owner. Night and day difference between that and my old Hakko 936. It just does everything so much better. If interested, I did a review of the FX-951 here:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/hakko-fx-951-review/Hope this helps in your decision.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 14, 2015, 08:51:22 am
content: Quote from: nanofrog on September 13, 2015, 08:26:56 pmI think most of this is incorrect, sorry. Not sure where you're getting your information but it's wrong.1. The Pico and Nano have identical heating times according to everything and everyone, save for that one lone report you linked to, which isn't even from the manufacturer, it's from a dealer. The manufacturer says it has one. No way does the Pico lack a thermocouple. Heck, the handles even have memory to save their own calibration. You really think they'd save the 15 cents on a thermocouple and yet have tons of electronics in it?2. The standby/setback features in the Pico and Nano are absolutely identical -- see the screenshot of the configuration software below.3. Yes, the threads on the Pico are plastic, and the heater is ceramic from what I hear, hence no electrical connection from the base to the tip. No idea if this really poses a reliability problem in practice, or if it's just hypothetical.4. Yes, made in different places and of different materials.5. Not sure what you're trying to say about tips. The Pico and Nano use the same series-102 tips as the rest of the i-Con series, and have identical heating times.

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 14, 2015, 07:11:08 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on September 14, 2015, 08:51:22 amSource is linked in the previous post. It's even possible that the original responder (person that made the statement), whether a dealer/distributor or was a direct employee of Ersa, confused the Pico's tech with that of the RDS80.Quote from: tooki on September 14, 2015, 08:51:22 amI've not had them to teardown, so I can't compare the irons. The threads are definitely different (metal on one, plastic on the other), and the only internal photo that comes to mind, is the more complicated i-Tool image used in their marketing materials/pages. Internal photos of the Pico and Nano's irons for a side-by-side would be nice.The software is nice.Are you sure the thermal performance is genuinely the same though, given the different heating elements?Heck, from a marketing perspective, having a performance difference would help push the Nano, which should be a more profitable station (i.e. reason to upgrade within Ersa's line).As per a reliability problem with the threads, I do recall at least a couple of users that indicated that was a genuine issue.But like anything, how did they take care of it?Gently or by way of Jeremy Clarkson's School of Ham-Fistedness?I find the different COO's suspect regarding similarity, as it would be less expensive to build both in the same location. Which leads me to think there's more differences than might be expected as well as a reduced degree of quality control (OKi/Metcal HCT-900, which is a POS, certainly comes to mind; so this type of scenario isn't without precedence). And the bit in the linked source mentioning the enclosure components weren't ESD compliant lend some corroboration to this line of thinking as well.Regarding the posts on tips, it seems you've missed the point entirely, which was comparing thecostof the 102 series tips used in the Pico (and Nano) with the T15 cartridge tips used in the FX-950.I was trying to keep things simple (answer the specific question regarding the Pico).

author: m98
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 14, 2015, 08:50:01 pm
content: Quote from: KL27x on September 13, 2015, 08:43:55 pmI'm using an Ersa I-Con 1 since two month, it also comes with the I-tool and I can't complain about the low thermal mass. Works perfectly even for massive through hole components on an 4-layer pcb with two ground planes.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 15, 2015, 09:43:18 am
content: Quote from: nanofrog on September 14, 2015, 07:11:08 pmHere's a photo of the Pico heating element:http://sg.element14.com/ersa/013100j/heating-element-i-tool-pico/dp/2057379https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/(ersa-i-con-pico)-using-soldering-iron-with-own-diy-station/https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/ersa-icon-pico-vs-icon-nano!-is-esd-protection-important-soldering-station/msg448964/#msg448964Here's the full i-Tool (same element as the Nano):http://www.kurtzersa.com/fileadmin/_processed_/csm_iTool_zerlegt_walter_mit_Schrift_d130f5ba83.gifAs best I can tell, the i-Tool Nano is simply the regular i-Tool, made slimmer, without the rubber grip, and without the accelerometer. (So same on the inside, different on the outside.) The Pico tool is basically the same as the Nano on the outside, but with cheaper guts made down to a price by making more bits out of plastic. But it still has the same heating element inside its cheaper heater module, and it still has a thermocouple. The heater modules have the same number of pins, but different pinouts.Quote from: nanofrog on September 14, 2015, 07:11:08 pmYes, in a sort of "court-appointed software developer" kind of way!I also did an experiment, and indeed the software for the Pico can read config files for the Nano and vice versa, just by renaming the file on the SD card! Of course, this makes me wonder if the software for the "big" i-Con stations can do more...Quote from: nanofrog on September 14, 2015, 07:11:08 pmI can't besureinsofar as I haven't tested them both myself (I have the Nano), but I've not heard a single report of them having different performance in practice. Ersa's press release for the Pico swears it's "based on the same heater technology" as the Nano/full i-Con series, and they always quote identical performance specs.Quote from: nanofrog on September 14, 2015, 07:11:08 pmI couldn't agree more: the Pico and Nano are so similar as to cause confusion. (I've seen reseller catalogs where both are listed, and the Nano's ESD safety wasn't mentioned, making them appear absolutely identical in specs.)Interesting question about profitability though: the street price for them here in Europe isn't gigantic (like 50€). I wouldn't be surprised if they mademoreprofit on the cheaper Pico, because the manufacturing costs are so much lower than in Germany. I wouldn't be surprised if the numbers were something like this (educated guesses based on my background in electronics retail):Pico mfg cost: €30; sale price €130; wholesale price €110 = gross profit €80Nano mfg cost: €90; sale price €180; wholesale price €140 = gross profit €50Quote from: nanofrog on September 14, 2015, 07:11:08 pmTruer words have seldom been spoken!Quote from: nanofrog on September 14, 2015, 07:11:08 pmWell, given that I wasn't the only person confused, it may be fair to say that your presentation didn't quite succeed at conveying your intent. :pBut indeed, the low cost of the 102 series tips means I barely think twice about ordering one if I want it, and I won't worry if I f••k them up by mixing leaded and lead-free solders. (As an aside, is that really an issue? Maybe you guys can shed some light on that.)

author: pallee
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 15, 2015, 08:24:01 pm
content: Thanks everyone for your input to this torrent of information!I think you have convinced me on several accounts to get the Ersa I-con Nano, namely:1) Pricing and availability of tips and other consumables/spare parts in Europe2) Manufacturing quality vs. Ersa I-con Pico3) Power, features, bells and whistles etc. vs. Hakko Fx-888DRealizing this might be slightly OT:What recommendations regarding tips for the Nano? I was thinking chisel-tips (1.6 or 2.4 as an allround and one thinner and one thicker). I will mostly be doing through-hole with the occasional SMD.

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 15, 2015, 08:25:10 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on September 15, 2015, 09:43:18 amOut of curiosity, I checked Farnell and Newark (COO & pricing respectively), and not only is there a notable price difference ($57.77 for the Pico's element v. $131.20 for the Nano's), both are actually made in Germany (if you trust Farnell's COO statements). Makes sense IMHO, as they can keep the "secret sauce" out of the hands of the Chinese to some extent (protect their trade secrets type of thinking).The assemblies are definitely constructed differently (cost cutting regarding the Pico by using more plastic to reduce assy. processes), but I don't think the internal construction is quite the same either. Even if it's just TC placement (TC to tip distance is increased slightly or in free air rather than metal-metal contact), it would affect performance a bit.Such a small performance difference may not be noticed in most cases (1 & 2 layer boards for example), but would show itself on higher demand joints that push the station to it's limits (which I still suspect would be reached before the Nano's, based on a few comments in the thread you linked).Quote from: tooki on September 15, 2015, 09:43:18 amRegarding the plastic shell components for the irons, the cost per unit would be rather small (plastic is cheap + NRE for the molds isn't high when divided out).Unlike the full blown i-Tool iron, I'd be willing to bet there's zero electronics in either the Nano or Pico. My reasoning for this is twofold.First, the Nano and Pico are only meant to be used with the irons that come with them. So there's no need to use a serial ROM to store a tool ID string or any other data (i.e. temp. offsets).Second, the base units don't use motion for setback settings, so no need for an accelerometer either.I mention this, as the photo of the full-fledged i-Tools' PCB only appears to contain a ROM + accelerometer. FWIW, Weller uses the same approach with some of their irons as well (irons for the WX stations for example).Quote from: tooki on September 15, 2015, 09:43:18 amThere's just enough information in various posts to make me think there actually is a performance gap. Not drastic, but enough that the Pico will leave a user wanting/needing more if they're pushing it at/near it's limits. And the Nano can fit that bill (i-Con 1/2/4 would be even better of course, as they can provide 80W or even 120W of continuous power). Such a scenario would be in Ersa's favor at any rate.And although the basic specs are the same between the Pico and Nano as you pointed out (80W max, 68W continuous), keep in mind however, the electronics may differ as well as the thermal performance of the iron it comes with (and probably do if for no other reason than cost cutting).I read the "based on the same heater technology" statement as the key for opening up possibilities for variation in performance & implementation, yet still be technically correct (lots of wiggle room regarding "based on"). Things can be left out (i.e. simplified circuit to reduce the BOM cost), made of cheaper materials, or mechanical specs changed (this is discussed above) in order to make something cheaper (or performance to fit product placement). Combine this with the different pin-outs, and it makes me wonder what's changed between them under the hood as it were (just enough hints to get my gears turning).Regarding manufacturer controlled test conditions, it's easy to demonstrate similar performance if that's their intent (with users unaware of the conditions this is no longer the case). The recent JBC discussion certainly comes to mind.Ideally, both units need to be tested side-by-side under real world conditions from independent sources (aka EEVBlog members). But AFAIK, Ersa's the only entity that's done side-by-side testing and they're not revealing the whole story (after all, marketing isn't exactly known to be completely truthful).Quote from: tooki on September 15, 2015, 09:43:18 amMaybe, but I suspect they're basing MSRP on a 435% markup, so that would produce the following cost per unit for Ersa:Pico = ~29.89EURNano = ~41.38EURPuts the Pico where you estimated, but the Nano comes in for a lot less. The production facility in Germany is likely highly automated, so man hours are kept to a minimum despite the higher wages in Germany. It's the basis for myNano should be more profitablecomment at any rate (a little really does go a long way regarding how cost translates to MSRP).Quote from: tooki on September 15, 2015, 09:43:18 amI'm the same way. Not much thought when parting with say $5.00 - $6.00 for a tip, but at $30 a pop, I tend to have reservations (puts a noticeable dent in a $50 - $100 parts/supply budget).Regarding using the same tip for both lead and lead-free solder, no need to panic.Just rinse them off well with the next alloy before using it on any joints (keeps you from mixing the alloys which would give you some very strange properties, mechanical in particular that could cause you all kinds of aggravation when fault finding). Also, best to stick with no-clean or rosin based fluxes as organic/water soluble can corrode a tip and joints if not cleaned off properly (still active at room temp).

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 15, 2015, 08:35:54 pm
content: Quote from: pallee on September 15, 2015, 08:24:01 pmYou'll be better off with the Nano IMHO, and I suspect a lot happier using it in the long run as well.As per tips, I would recommend getting the following to start, as you can do a LOT of tasks with just these 5:3 chisels (say 1.6, 2.4, and 3.2mm) to start1 bent conical (SMD)1 drag soldering tip (SMD)TheHakko's Tip Selection pagewill be useful for illustrating what the different tips can be used for (by Shape or Operation).

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 16, 2015, 11:15:29 am
content: Quote from: nanofrog on September 15, 2015, 08:25:10 pmErsa says that thei-Tool Pico ironstores calibration data in the handle, which would of course necessitate a PCB. But to be perfectly honest, the bullet points there seem kinda cut-and-pasted, so I would take it with a grain of salt. (The page for the i-Tool Nano says nothing at all, but I assume that it would not have less capabilities than the Pico.)Quote from: nanofrog on September 15, 2015, 08:25:10 pmWell, I already have the Nano. If you're willing to send a Pico and a "big" i-Con station my way, I'd be more than happy to do whatever tests you like!Quote from: nanofrog on September 15, 2015, 08:25:10 pmOK cool, thanks! Yeah, I know to avoid the water-soluble fluxes. I've always bought ordinary rosin-core so far and it's always served well. As for separate flux, I used to use rosin paste, now I have homemade liquid rosin (more of an experiment than anything else) and purchased no-clean flux liquid in a Bon-kote.Quote from: pallee on September 15, 2015, 08:24:01 pmIt comes with a1.6mm chisel, which is a great tip for everyday through-hole work. When I got the Nano, I also bought a 0.4mm chisel (turned out to be useless) and a2.3mm drag soldering tip(A-MAZING!!). I then bought a3.2mm chisel, which has been handier for things like solder lugs on potentiometers, and I just ordered a 2.4mm chisel kinda for shits and giggles. The Wick-tip tips (big wide things for using solder wick on a whole side of a device) look really interesting, but are kinda expensive.I notice some overlap with nanofrog's recommendations above!I strongly suggest that you get an extra tip holder (the little ferrule and threaded plastic nut) for each tip you get. The tip holders are hard to separate from a tip, and having a tip holder for each tip means you can easily change tips even with the iron hot. It comes in black and green, in case you run separate tips for leaded and lead-free solder and want to color-code them:Black (3IT1040-00)Green (3IT1045-00)(Sadly, the green ones aren't actually nearly as vibrant a green as the pictures.)

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 16, 2015, 01:58:15 pm
content: Quote from: nanofrog on September 15, 2015, 08:25:10 pmThere is PCB in pico, and according to the writing on it, it is the same as in nano. Photo of highly abused pico PCB, guy was hacking it to make his own station working with pico irons. There is MCU on it BTW. There is time divided mix of analog and digital signal over single wire going between the station and the handpiece, minute 23 on the video.

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 16, 2015, 06:06:39 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on September 16, 2015, 11:15:29 amI'm a fan of this.Faster tip changes and fewer burns in the process IME (don't need one per tip though, so I only have 4 total).Quote from: wraper on September 16, 2015, 01:58:15 pmI'm genuinely surprised with this. Thanks for the photo & video links.

author: marber
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2015, 08:48:10 pm
content: Quote from: KL27x on September 13, 2015, 08:51:25 pmYes, it's nice, fully agreed on all the above. I like that holder slightly better than my new "professional" Metcal MX-W1AV stand, which is somewhat bulkier, not as easy to reinsert the iron into, and looks plastic-y.

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2015, 11:16:06 pm
content: The one flaw is the two halves can work loose when you're jamming the iron in/out. Or maybe that's because I've dropped mine so many times. My stand is epoxied together, now.

author: ez24
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2015, 12:56:38 am
content: After reading this whole post - my conclusion is to flip a coin

author: GreyWoolfe
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 19, 2015, 10:37:11 am
content: Quote from: ez24 on September 19, 2015, 12:56:38 amOr cast auguries with bones?

author: marber
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 20, 2015, 12:34:08 pm
content: Quote from: KL27x on September 18, 2015, 11:16:06 pmI haven't had that happen yet, but I don't think I've ever dropped my stand indeed.

author: pallee
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2015, 09:10:10 pm
content: Thanks guys for pointing me in the direction of the I-con nano!I just received it (and 2.4+3.2mm chisel tips) from amazon.de (took longer than expected due to an error at the postal service). Very impressed by its size/power ratio. The iron feels/handles almost like using a DMM-probe, and is similar or slightly larger in size. Managed to repair the power supply of an old TFT-monitor in no time at all just for kicks and to verify it was not DOA.As of now I could not be happier, but time will tell how well it ages...

author: GreyWoolfe
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 08, 2015, 10:15:48 pm
content: Good for you, pallee. There is a joy to using a good soldering iron. I enjoy my Hakko FX-951 and Metcal MX-500P II. Far superior to my old Hakko 936.

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2015, 10:50:08 pm
content: Quote from: GreyWoolfe on October 08, 2015, 10:15:48 pm+1

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2015, 10:35:50 pm
content: Quote from: pallee on October 08, 2015, 09:10:10 pmGlad you're happy with it too!The only thing that's proven to be an annoyance for me is the power switch on the back (whose brilliant idea was that?!?). But that was easily circumvented by using a power strip with individually switched sockets.

author: Alfons
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 03, 2015, 06:01:10 pm
content: To complete the confusion: Ersa has the I-Con1 updated: new firmware, slightly different label placed on the front and is now presenting a new (old) soldering iron. This soldering iron looks exact same as the soldering iron of the Nano, of course, has a female connector to connect it to the I-Con. I could buy the station brand new from private for low and was a bit confused because of this soldering iron. I emailed to Ersa therefore, who responded immediately. This is so correct, they would no longer produce the soldering iron with the gray rubber ring at the end iron-grip. These would be worn out too quickly. They apologized, that they had not yet adjusted the product images.Now there is the soldering iron of the Picco and the Nano, sharing the PCB. The soldering iron of the Nano divides shares the heating element and the housing with the Iron of the I-Con1 now.Anyway, I'm very happy with the station. Here in Germany they often get cheap from private to buy.