eevBLAB #38 - Digikey & The US Government Watchlist! - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 21, 2017, 07:39:28 am
content: Digikey are checking orders against the US Denied Persons list and holding orders until you can prove your generic name is not that person on the list.Also, Element14 doing a similar thing.https://www.eevblog.com/2014/02/24/element-14-holding-orders-based-on-us-government-watch-list/

author: Towger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2017, 09:24:35 am
content: It can get worse. Yesterday there was a court case here were a man was fired from the Irish national electricity supply company, because a 3rd party security agency said he was a danger to the national infrastructure of both Ireland and the UK.They wanted to fire him quietly, but he has taken them to court, so it went public.There are no details of that he is accused/ member of, but he says he is guilty of nothing. You can Google the case with "Graham Light ESB", a genetic English name. Lots of them around...Added link:High Court prevents dismissal of man after ESB considered him a 'risk to national infrastructure'http://jrnl.ie/3657092

author: G0MJW
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2017, 10:25:53 am
content: Expect I am out of line with most people's thinking but I would rather details were checked than be blown up by some lunatic fanatic. Governments share watch list data, so I can see why things might be checked, even outside the US, against a US list. Ask yourself would you rather have a plot foiled in Australia based on US intelligence, or not foiled because only the local list was used?David Jones, if it were not on the list, might be a good choice of pseudonym. Someone claiming to be Dave going down to the chemists for say, some sulphuric acid, some nitric acid, some glycerol, a lump of clay and a box of soda ash might elicit the response "no worries, he's just going blast fishing" whereas it they were anyone else it might be viewed differently.http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40604543orhttps://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/oct/28/britain-foiled-terror-attacks-plots-police-counter-terrorism-security-servicesFirst name and last name like in Dave's case is a pretty crude flag, I can imagine what it's like for John Smith or Mohammed Khan or Zhang Wei.

author: NivagSwerdna
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2017, 10:32:30 am
content: Firstly, I was stopped once, presumably as part of keeping the racial numbers balanced, in a 'random' stop and search at a mainline railway station... I gave my name etc and this was radioed in... once the response came the officers suddenly got hyper aggressive and it turned unpleasant... it wasn't until some time later that they decided I wasn't the guy they were looking for. Names are definitely too ambiguous... we should all be bar coded or RFIDed.Secondly, holding up orders is so dumb. Just send the order details silently to the authorities.

author: b_force
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2017, 10:43:56 am
content: In many countries it's in fact illegal and considered racist, to judge someone by his name, appearance, religion, skin tone, gender etcThe fact that this is even done blows my mind totally. Goes right against many laws and constitutions.Moreover I don't get the pure overly dramatic answers from the US. If you look at the factual numbers there has been pretty much zero attacks from overseas weirdos in years. But instead many from weirdos from their own soil.So basically they force the rest of the world giving up their privacy for something that's not even the biggest problem. In fact many other areas in the world (europe, but the pacific as well), having more and very serious issues.To be clear, there has been zero prove and evidence that monitoring peoples data is even effective. In fact at a certain point it even does the exact opposite

author: Towger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2017, 11:06:01 am
content: The problem is all the false matches. I have heard of many strange/stupit matches and even the odd probable real match... The only problem is they were just trying to pay bills. In finance systems, if your name is on a list you have to provide you date and place/city of birth with each transaction for automatic clearance. It the software supports this and the user/company knows how to enter.It is not unheard of for a company to upgrade their systems and transactions to start queue up for manual approval and no one in the company is any the wiser...

author: unclebob
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2017, 11:36:20 am
content: It's like the "I will not use this PC to build nuclear weapons" checkbox when you order something from Dell. The yanks are completely of the rocker. I ran into similar issues with Digikey because "hobbyist home automation device" was not specific enough as description for the use of the parts ("plant humidity sensor" finally was harmless enough for them). If I can get my parts from a non US or UK vendor, I always do so because it's much less annoying and I don't care if it costs more.

author: b_force
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2017, 12:20:05 pm
content: Quote from: unclebob on October 21, 2017, 11:36:20 amOr is it?Maybe you're a big 'green grass' supplier

author: unclebob
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2017, 12:36:56 pm
content: Quote from: b_force on October 21, 2017, 12:20:05 pmI should get a PO-Box in the Netherlands to "measure the impulse response"

author: ebclr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2017, 01:36:31 pm
content: China suppliers love this, The only question they ask is did you paid?

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2017, 02:45:09 pm
content: The upside is that eventually everyone will be on a watchlist, and life can go back to normal.?

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2017, 02:50:37 pm
content: Quote from: ebclr on October 21, 2017, 01:36:31 pmYou're forgetting where they ask which fake marking you want.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2017, 03:18:16 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on October 21, 2017, 02:50:37 pmYou're saying it as if a wide variety of choice is a bad thing.

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2017, 03:24:25 pm
content: Shoot first, ask later.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2017, 03:38:22 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on October 21, 2017, 07:39:28 amHave you ever had problems with things like credit cards? People with very common names often do, and it doesn't matter much if you have a distinctive middle name. Even having a common initial can be problem. In London Patel is a common surname, and a lot of the given names that go with Patel begin with S. Friends have told me that if your name is S Patel, regardless of what the S stands for, you'll get credit check related issues from time to time.

author: edy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2017, 07:43:59 pm
content: Can someone explain to me what it is they are trying to prevent by checking somebody against a watchlist? Do you think somebody building a bomb or trying to harm people is ordering parts off Element 14 or Digi-Key? Heck, you could just make your own suitcase clock bomb like our boy Mohamed by going down to your local Wal-Mart....https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahmed_Mohamed_clock_incidentDave, I agree this is complete and utter B.S.. I understand there may be some legitimacy in checking people buying industrial-sized quantities of fertilizer but if you are a terrorist, or some psychopath, as we have unfortunately seen lately in Las Vegas, you are not going to be stopped by some Digi-Key or Element 14 check against a US watchlist. You also can buy computers, electronics, etc... from many other places, including CHINA (eBay, Alibaba), and also dismantle and modify readily-available electronics from stores around you, electronics hobby shops, etc. Or even have someone else buy them for you.It just boggles the mind what this "US Watch List" is really doing? What is it trying to prevent? Please someone explain to me what actual purpose it serves other than pure and utter B.S.? Or is it just a "show of force" or domination/imperialism by USA?

author: Richard Crowley
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2017, 08:42:53 pm
content: What's all the fuss about here? Isn't this simply typical ordinary and expected government bungling up what may have been a sensible idea at some point in the distant past? They do the same thing in a hundred other areas. But those areas aren't the topic of the EEVblog forums. You guys creack me up.I work for a company with operations worldwide, including a few "Controlled Countries". We must be very careful about what is exchanged (both hardware and software, IP, etc.) with CC people. We have whole gangs of lawyers dealing with this to keep us out of trouble.

author: ebclr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2017, 11:36:07 pm
content: All these work is a pure waste of time, The parts will go to the so "called" bad guys anyway.“Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.”? Benjamin Franklin

author: Old Don
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2017, 12:44:04 am
content: It gets even dumber when it's California laws.The Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals issued an opinion to uphold a California law that requires a full 10-day ‘cooling off’ period for all lawful purchases of firearms, even for purchasers who have previously bought guns and passed background checks in less than 10 days. Additionally, the Ninth Circuit took issue with the lower court’s determination that the cooling off period could not be justified as an effective crime deterrent when applied to those who already owned guns and passed background checks. In essence, the lower court reasoned that if a gun owner wanted to go act impulsively, they already had the means to do so and did not need to go buy another gun to accomplish the task. So the fact that you have 4 or 5 (maybe 10 or 12 etc) other guns at home that suit the purpose if you want to go around the bend doesn't seem to compute with the pol's.Hope you don't own cows in CA: SB 1383: Controlling Cow Flatulence. Capture cow farts or suffer heavy fines. CARB (CA Air Resources Board) suggests inserting a tube into the cow’s digestive system and venting into a backpack.Prop. 57: Early Release for so-called Non-Violent Criminals. Among those offenses considered “non-violent”: rape of an unconscious person; human trafficking involving sex acts with minors; and assault with a deadly weapon. Blogger Felicia Wilson summed it up well (original emphasis): “…Call me crazy, but shouldn’t a crime that includes the word rape or assault be considered, I don’t know… violent?”Animals are banned from mating publicly within 1,500 feet of a tavern, school, or place of worship - so I hope they are good at measuring distances!

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2017, 12:56:06 am
content: Quote from: Richard Crowley on October 22, 2017, 08:42:53 pmIf it were just the governments bungling up another thing, it wouldn't be so bad. The problem is that we're currently engaged in large scale security theatre. This distracts from the actual problem, causes all sorts of issues for law abiding citizens and happens at the expense of huge amounts of tax monetary units.If this were to be limited to one country, it wouldn't even be that bad. Unfortunately, some countries insist on exporting the madness elsewhere, much like similar overreaching in other areas happened in the past. Erosion of the sovereignty of countries doesn't sound like some minor bungling.Both are major geopolitical themes at the moment and can hardly be called typical or ordinary.

author: schmitt trigger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2017, 01:14:11 am
content: What happened to the “inocent until proven guilty” ?

author: ebclr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2017, 01:49:48 am
content: "What happened to the “innocent until proven guilty” ?"Was replaced by guilty until be proven innocent ( but only valid on court of appeal )

author: medical-nerd
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2017, 12:25:01 pm
content: HiyaI miss the early 90's. There was a unix simulator I found used for assessing armour resistance to low nuclear yields etc that could be run on Linux. It required a licence password from the USA DOD. I applied from the UK while a student and was granted a license. Wish I still had that letter cos it was a pretty letterhead!!! I look for rf microwave surplus to play with, many US companies will not send me junk saying its export restricted because UK is a country that supports terrorists and is blacklisted. They will however export to South Africa etc. I find more success finding junk from countries like Israel. God knows what watchlists I'm on......Cheers

author: AF6LJ
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 23, 2017, 12:30:41 pm
content: Ladies and GentlemenWelcome to the Police StatePlease Check any rights you haveAt the Door

author: schmitt trigger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2017, 01:41:20 pm
content: George Orwell, anyone?

author: medical-nerd
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2017, 02:33:54 pm
content: 19848/4=2 , 9+1=10 , 2x10=208-1=7 , 9+1=10 , 10+7=172017 anyone?

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2017, 03:45:06 pm
content: The scariest thing is that these rules supposed to prevent stuff getting into the hands of bad guys is being so incompetently administered.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2017, 04:49:45 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on October 23, 2017, 03:45:06 pmThat's what's so devious about security theatre.

author: AF6LJ
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 23, 2017, 07:13:15 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on October 23, 2017, 03:45:06 pmThis stuff never works, Corruption and other issues keep these rules from wroking.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 24, 2017, 06:38:30 am
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on October 23, 2017, 04:49:45 pmI like the phrase .... but not its implication.

author: Thiadmer
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: October 24, 2017, 03:59:07 pm
content: Quote from: Richard Crowley on October 22, 2017, 08:42:53 pmIf it's all "simply typical and expected", then why the evasive language?To be blunt: blocking delivery of ordered goods is quite something different than watching. Start by calling it an "embargo list".

author: artag
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 26, 2017, 05:11:07 pm
content: From 'http://metro.co.uk/2017/02/04/how-unique-is-your-name-in-the-uk-this-website-will-show-you-6426594/'1. David Smith (6,163 people)2. David Jones (5,959 people)3. John Smith (4,742 people)David Jones is even more common than John Smith. Joe Bloggs doesn't even figure. 19,500 Dave Jones in the US.Go to Wales, and the trick would be finding someone NOT called David Jones. Maybe NSW is the same ?

author: artag
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 26, 2017, 05:14:20 pm
content: Quote from: G0MJW on October 21, 2017, 10:25:53 amFirstly : that's all very well, but if they're reacting to common false positives, they're wasting their time. Could be spent on something useful instead and be more effective.Secondly: You might think differently if they have a non-innocent Mike Willis on the checklist. Not because of the suspicion, but because of the sheer waste of your time.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 26, 2017, 05:34:47 pm
content: Quote from: G0MJW on October 21, 2017, 10:25:53 amThe problem is that there is no proof that these things have any positive effect. Worse still, there is proof that it's actually detrimental to security, due to an overload of information gumming up the works, and seeding radicalization.Two independent committees have found that no terrorist attacks have been stopped by dragnet techniques, even though the US government claimed at least 50 were prevented. The committees did make a list of recommendations, but it turns out few of those were implemented. Why is that? Because no one wants to be the politician that has to explain an attack after he relaxed things. And we all know attacks will come, sooner or later. So the only way is down the spiral, constricting our freedom further and further, until nothing of value is left.We should all remember that the terrorist's goal isn't to kill every last one of us by these attacks. It's in the name: terrorism. Not violism. It's intended to strike fear in our hearts, to destabilize our society. Nuance is the death of extremism, so the public needs to be pushed to the extremes. Publicity is more important than numbers. They know they can't destroy everything we value, so they manipulate us into doing it ourselves. We cannot defend out most precious assets by destroying them.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 26, 2017, 05:43:51 pm
content: Quote from: artag on October 26, 2017, 05:14:20 pmA friend had his boarding card tagged for secondary screening each time he went to the US. I was dumb enough to check in with him in Dallas one day. After that my boarding card was tagged for secondary screening each time I went to the US. I am well aware that this is not an isolated case. This is how dumb and theatrical the whole system is. They put their resources into endless rechecking of people who are not showing any signs of being a problem, which means they have no time to look for real threats.India had a lot of terrorist problems in the past, and has largely got them under control (despite a few high profile failures). It did this by taking the application of low tech screening really seriously. In the last few years pressure from the US has got them fighting the same war on toothpaste as most other countries, and I feel less safe travelling in India.The war on toothpaste itself is a clear expression of how much a farce the whole thing is. The toothpaste bomb idea was rapidly discredited as being a credible threat, yet years later we have to hunt around the bloody supermarkets before we fly, trying to find one that stocks small tubes of toothpaste. The ones we normally buy are more than 100ml, and you can't just fly with a big tube that's nearly empty.

author: Towger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 26, 2017, 07:09:44 pm
content: The only liquid bomb used was on a PAL flight. The Philippines stopped checking for liquids after about a year. It is strange flying around parts of the middle east and Asia with fellow passengers happly swigging from their water bottles during the security checks.

author: graphtronics
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2017, 12:37:06 am
content: Perhaps it has to do with false impersonation by another person. So Dave can be cleared of any wrong doing. Imagine a terrorist purchasing with Jones name. Then, secret services detain EEVblog for something he has nothing to do with. They may be protecting you.

author: Old Don
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 08, 2017, 04:10:17 pm
content: Maybe what is needed is to brand everyone with a number or bar code at birth.For extra security, you can place a sign over your place of work that reads "work will set you free".

author: eyiz
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 27, 2018, 05:19:03 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on October 21, 2017, 07:39:28 amI just saw this, and thought it was hilarious.However, this is not likely a "false positive". There's only one Dave Jones that the watch-list cares about. And it's the very same Dave Jones here.What is not factored into this in the discussion so far, is that human beings are not creating this watch list. The list is being generated by Artificial Intelligence software, that takes lots of data as input from various sources, and uses "heuristics" to estimate and "guess" the names that should be on that list. It's all "automatic."Now, the United States has strict rules on who in the world is entitled to be "educated" on technical matters. Dave Jones is an "educator" and is in violation of the US rules, since he doesn't restrict his electronics teaching to only "acceptable" countries.If you try, for example, to sign up for the famous "Circuits and Electronics" course from MIT available on edX online platform, for example, you'll see that if you are from certain countries like Cuba or Iran, they'll tell you they are sorry, but you're not allowed to take the course. You'll see a message saying it's against the US rules to educate people in these countries.So, what the AI program does, is search through all the data on the internet, and check who is violating the US rules and policies, and puts that person on the watchlist.The AI program doesn't know who "Dave Jones" is, just that a person with that name is "teaching electronics" in an "unrestricted" manner, making this "sensitive technical material" available to persons in restricted countries. That's all it is.It may seem like a silly thing, and an invasion of privacy, but the problem is really that "Dave Jones" used his real name for his blog and youtube channel etc..and therein lies the problem.There's a reason that Actors use "Stage Names" that are different from their "Real Names", and it's to keep their private life somewhat separate from their public life, so that they could have some privacy, and avoid being "picked on" by various elements of the system. Writers often do the same thing, having a fictional author name etc..I can guarantee you, that if Dave used a stage name, like say "John Smith", then the John Smith would be the "generic" name on the watchlist, and when Dave went himself to order electronics parts, he'd never have a problem. He'd only have created problems for anyone named "John Smith."The AI program isn't smart enough to look behind stage names, to figure out the real names of the actors. We haven't gotten to that level of sophistication yet. That would have to be done by a human investigative team. The fact that all these generic names are appearing on the watchlist is proof that a dumb piece of software, masquerading as "Artificial Intelligence" is at work behind the scenes.It's wise to be anonymous on the internet wherever you can.