Automotive qualified, Linux/Android ready embedded platforms??...... - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / projects

author: Smokey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 13, 2022, 11:35:22 pm
content: I'm having a hard time finding any hardware platforms and run Linux or Android that are also designed to meet Automotive standards. I would love to run a RPi, but if it didn't shake to death first I bet the temperature ranges would kill it.What's out there that's essentially an automotive qualified Raspberry Pi equivalent?

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 14, 2022, 02:24:13 pm
content: Do car head units really work over the full grade 2 temperature range? I have my doubts. I couldn't survive in cabin temperatures across the full grade 2 temperature range.Pi zero 2 says it has an operating temperature range of -20 to +70C, seems good enough to me.

author: Codemonkey
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 15, 2022, 12:24:31 pm
content: 8devices have some industrial temperature rated devices such as their Habanero module, not seen any automotive qualified parts though.

author: DC1MC
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 15, 2022, 12:51:59 pm
content: Quote from: Smokey on May 13, 2022, 11:35:22 pmThe Geniatech XPI-iMX8MM industrial:https://www.geniatech.com/download/xpi-imx8mm/

author: Smokey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 15, 2022, 11:11:16 pm
content: Quote from: DC1MC on May 15, 2022, 12:51:59 pmCool. That's better than I've found so far. Good temp ranges, and I like being nxp based instead of broadcom like the RPi. I'll check that out.I worry about the shock/vibration issues for automotive though. I wish it was a different formfactor without the 0.1in box header and normal HDMI port that would probably fail fairly quickly bolted to a dashboard.

author: YurkshireLad
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 15, 2022, 11:14:27 pm
content: Quote from: Marco on May 14, 2022, 02:24:13 pmIs -20C the standard? That's too high for countries like Canada, surely?

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 15, 2022, 11:57:34 pm
content: I would think most modern boards would do pretty well in automotive vibration. The times I've been involved in those issues the problems have been associated with large, heavy components (transformers, large caps and connectors), and/or with large area boards with minimal mounting points. Boards like the pi are much smaller than what gave us trouble and components are relatively small and light, with many more points of support. Even the HDMI connector isn't;very large and a compliant support would make it much less susceptible.

author: Smokey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 16, 2022, 01:51:38 am
content: https://www.everythingrf.com/community/what-is-aec-q100-qualificationLooks like even the lease aggressive grade3 still has a -40C lower range.

author: Scrts
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 16, 2022, 03:12:56 am
content: NVidia Jetson might have Android, not sure. Other than that:Renesas R-Car:https://elinux.org/R-Car/Boards/Kingfisher/Android/Android_10Texas Instruments DSPs:https://www.ti.com/microcontrollers-mcus-processors/processors/digital-signal-processors/products.htmlNXP i.MX8 family:https://www.nxp.com/design/software/embedded-software/i-mx-software/android-automotive-os-for-i-mx-applications-processors:ANDROID-AUTO

author: max_torque
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 16, 2022, 11:47:17 am
content: "full" automotive temperature rating is -45 to 125 degC

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 16, 2022, 03:02:45 pm
content: Quote from: YurkshireLad on May 15, 2022, 11:14:27 pmNo it's not, but lets say the oscillator refuses to work at -30 ... so what? I assume this is for entertainment, not engine function. Let the cabin warm up first.

author: Scrts
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 16, 2022, 03:09:41 pm
content: Quote from: max_torque on May 16, 2022, 11:47:17 amThat is incorrect.AEC-Q100 has multiple grades:Code:GradeAmbient operating temperature range0-40°C to +150°C1-40°C to +125°C2-40°C to +105°C3-40°C to +85°CPassives are usually qualified under AEC-Q200

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 16, 2022, 04:23:17 pm
content: If you really want something that is AEC-Q100 compliant, forget about the cheap SBCs.You could consider something like this:https://www.forlinx.net/single-board-computer/t507-single-board-computer-117.htmlBut of course, since we don't know what you actually want to do, I'm just assuming AEC-Q100 is what you need, since you said so. Others have suggested you might not need that at all. I dunno.

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 16, 2022, 05:03:14 pm
content: From a Linux integrators perspective, Olimex'OLinuXinoboards, being OSHW and having support in upstream Linux kernels (as opposed to vendor-specific forks) are very nice; currently, the Olimage images Olimex provides for these boards are just pre-configured Debian 11 "Bullseye" images (which is nice). For example, STMP157-OLinuXino-LIME2H-IND is designed for automotive applications, has a -45°C to +85°C operating range.As to the hardware (and its ruggedness wrt. vibration and such), I wouldn't know; I'm just a hobbyist in that front.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 16, 2022, 06:11:18 pm
content: what's wrong with intel/amd ? they have aec-q processors.you will need thermal management though. cooling AND heating.

author: Smokey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2022, 05:16:07 am
content: Quote from: free_electron on May 16, 2022, 06:11:18 pmHow do you do thermal management while the car is sitting in a parking lot baking/freezing? That seems to be the worst case.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2022, 01:23:54 pm
content: Quote from: Smokey on August 06, 2022, 05:16:07 amyou run the system if it is cold. the board enclosure may have a header on board. for cooling : tap into the airconditioning system run the heatpump. You may need a local system if the car doesn't have those abilities. it's 2022. we don't live in a time where the top technology was a Trabant. You can't stick such technology in a 20 year old car.

author: Smokey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2022, 05:07:39 pm
content: As an aftermarket product I'm pretty sure I don't really have access to those systems. And 20-40 year old vehicles without infotainment is a part of the market.I know I'm just being difficult, but the automotive temp ranges make it difficult.I wonder what the failure modes for the processor are for the two temp extremes?Cold = clock won't start?Hot = clocks run too fast?

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2022, 05:38:34 pm
content: I'd look at stuff form NXP. AFAIK the iMX8 for exists in automotive temperature range.

author: Smokey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2022, 05:59:38 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on August 06, 2022, 05:38:34 pmYa. NXP advertises those parts for automotive infotainment:https://www.nxp.com/design/development-boards/i-mx-evaluation-and-development-boards/sabre-for-automotive-infotainment-based-on-the-i-mx-6-series-for-automotive-avb-development:SABRE-AUTO-IMX6-RD2andhttps://www.nxp.com/design/software/embedded-software/i-mx-software/android-automotive-os-for-i-mx-applications-processors:ANDROID-AUTOIt's funny they don't list as a banner spec the increased temp range. You would hope anyone wanting to play in that space would appreciate that as something special.

author: Smokey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2022, 02:26:52 am
content: It seems like to have good low temperature mitigation you would want an insulated enclosure to keep the heat in.But for good high temperature mitigation you would want a good conductive heatsink to ambient to get the heat out.Talk about conflicting design requirements.....

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2022, 03:04:07 am
content: :Some designs use bimetallic strips to break thermal paths under the desired conditions. It adds complexity, but can partly resolve conflicting requirements. Waxes with appropriate melting points can also help.

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2022, 05:07:52 pm
content: Most cars aren't designed for low enough temperatures that it would really matter. I'm sure that in some places in Siberia electrolytics will go wonky, but ehh ... don't go there.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2022, 06:08:18 pm
content: Quote from: Marco on August 10, 2022, 05:07:52 pmOh really. Ever been to Canada?

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2022, 06:33:31 pm
content: No, but when automotive qualified isn't enough (ie. under -40C). Oh well, shit happens.Especially for infotainment, who cares if the car radio can come on.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2022, 06:46:12 pm
content: Quote from: Marco on August 10, 2022, 06:33:31 pmAt -40C you might want to listen to the weather report / local radio station to get an update on weather and road conditions.

author: uer166
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2022, 08:30:36 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on August 10, 2022, 06:46:12 pmAt -40C LCDs freeze, engines barely start, and top speed of a Tesla would be in the ~30mph range until the battery warms up a little. Qualified electronics below -40C is theleastof your worries for automotive. You wouldn't even get a speedometer until you bring the glass up to temperature. An infotainment system is not safety-critical no matter how you slice it either, it's just not something expected to work in 100% of conditions (unlike say, the RCM/restrain control module, brake booster, steering ECUs, and to a lesser extent stuff like ABS).Looking at OP's request, forget about auto/Android at -55C in Siberia, just do best effort.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2022, 11:56:15 pm
content: I have been a couple places where it is -40 degrees. On a couple of days of some years. I am quite sure that if you abandon the market for your device in such places you will not be able to measure the lost sales. If there is any sales decline from not running until it is warmer I am sure it will be from people who don't really need it but are just spec crazy.

author: Smokey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 16, 2022, 12:01:46 am
content: I tend to agree that anything past -40 is extreme. But that's why it's the low end of the ratings. E1 Extended low ends happen routinely in winter in some places. And commercial is anywhere that snows.Commercial = 0C to 60C (32F to 140F)E1 Extended = -25C to 75C (-13F to 167F)Industrial = -40C to 85C (-40F to 185F)Then the Automotive stuff:Grade 0 = -40°C to +150°C (-40F to 302F)Grade 1 = -40°C to +125°C (-40F to 257F)Grade 2 = -40°C to +105°C (-40F to 221F)Grade 3 = -40°C to +85°C (-40F to 185F)