Repairing car by me: Making messy job even more messy  - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Miyuki
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2017, 11:31:50 am
content: I was caught when disassembling engine (to change piston rings) It look like in cartoon there is parts everywhereIt take me half a day after that just to find all toolsI always wonder how some people can keep everything nice organised and tidy during this jobs

author: The Soulman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2017, 11:48:33 am
content: I'd advice to use a table and put the parts in the order of disassembly, use a tray or a magnet for each mayor part to hold the bolts and rings.Use a separate table for your tools to keep them organised.Also it will help to keep the sand out of your valve cover and cylinder head.

author: Miyuki
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2017, 11:55:58 am
content: Quote from: The Soulman on May 24, 2017, 11:48:33 amSand is no problem as I must already wash everything

author: razberik
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2017, 12:01:58 pm
content: My friend with his Peugeot 405 was a legend on dormitory parking lot (PPV Brno). He repaired absolutely everything there. Including clutch."What ? How did you change a clutch on parking lot ?""Normally, you put some wooden planks under the engine, slide under the car and then you change it".

author: CJay
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2017, 12:43:17 pm
content: Quote from: razberik on May 24, 2017, 12:01:58 pmPfft, trivial.I've done a few clutches on the road, driveway etc. Even changed an engine and gearbox on the drive with not much more than dirty looks from the neighbours and a trolley jack.

author: GeorgeOfTheJungle
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2017, 01:00:40 pm
content: See where's my clutch, wahaha

author: P90
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2017, 01:48:13 pm
content: looking at those pictures, I'm so glad I don't work on cars anymore...

author: Ampera
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2017, 01:56:20 pm
content: You call that messy?Work on a computer. It's like someone took a big lego house and smashed it onto the floor. Especially if you have tons of drives and cards. That will just go everywhere.Don't forget about the numerous screws.

author: Miyuki
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2017, 02:02:43 pm
content: Its not a work it is a hobby (a work so bad you'll newer do it for money)What a relax to can beat and kick piece of steel after staring whole day to terminal window and "working" with hardware far far away

author: CJay
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2017, 02:40:18 pm
content: Quote from: GeorgeOfTheJungle on May 24, 2017, 01:00:40 pmWell there's ya problem, it's not in the car.Used to drop the engine out of the bottom of those diesel Fords, much easier, disconnect the pipes and cables, put it on axle stands, take the wheels off, disconnect steering rack, lower ball joint and pop the CV joints then you can pull the drive shafts out, put it in gear, disconnect the gearstick linkages and put your trolley jack under the sump, undo the engine mounts and drop the jack, simple.Reassembly is the reverse of disassembly as all the best maintenance books say

author: yada
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2017, 03:13:39 pm
content: Take a piece of cardboard and stick each bolt through it in order writing down with a marker what went where. That way you can start where you left off the next day or week.

author: rdl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2017, 05:31:06 pm
content: I've always been impressed by people that could do major engine repairs in the backyard or on the street. The worst I ever had to do was replace a driveshaft on a 1970 Ford Galaxie which was 15 years old at the time.. That car had so many things go wrong that it made me decide to never work on cars again and never own another that wasn't reasonably new. When it finally broke beyond my ability to repair I gave it to Goodwill and rode the bus for the next six years.

author: vodka
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2017, 05:48:17 pm
content: Quote from: rdl on May 24, 2017, 05:31:06 pmI am surprise that these guys(so lucky) never catch the municipal guard or the police, they are fined with a 1000€.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2017, 05:56:55 pm
content: I replaced a clutch in a parking lot in the winter one time, that was really no fun at all. When it comes to internal engine repairs, it really is SO much easier to just pull the whole engine out and put it on a stand. You will save a lot of time by being able to get to everything. In my experience by the time a modern engine needs rings, it needs a lot of other stuff too, might be easier to see if you can find a good low miles engine from a salvage yard and drop it in.

author: GeorgeOfTheJungle
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2017, 06:28:28 pm
content: @CJay I've had to remove it because it's not only the clutch.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2017, 07:29:23 pm
content: Saw a guy do an engine overhaul at the side of the road. drop off the passengers, then there and then take the engine apart ( Toyota E20 minibus), replace rings, bearings, seals and water pump, and then put it back together. Sump came off with all the oil still in it, and it went back with the same oil in it ( seems it was still good, it was not totally sludge), and the bus left after 4 hours to go on it's merry way moving passengers again.Me, I have a liking for many small cardboard boxes, and some larger ones to hold complete assemblies as you take it apart. that also allows you to put the boxes inside the car as you go, making it easy at the end of the day ( or when you call it) to close the door and have all the parts of the engine in a single place, so nothing goes missing overnight. As well you really want to have some cardboard to put bolts in, in a rough drawing done with a marker, so that you can put them back in the same position on assembly, as you often find each position has a different length bolt in it.

author: Miyuki
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2017, 08:18:37 pm
content: Quote from: vodka on May 24, 2017, 05:48:17 pmYou are not allowed to repair cars ?

author: CJay
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2017, 08:50:32 pm
content: Quote from: GeorgeOfTheJungle on May 24, 2017, 06:28:28 pmI like a bit of heavy metal

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2017, 08:52:09 pm
content: Quote from: GeorgeOfTheJungle on May 24, 2017, 06:28:28 pmOk, I think we've seen both extremes of workspace floor surface now!

author: Tom45
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2017, 09:00:00 pm
content: Roadside repair

author: rdl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2017, 09:04:39 pm
content: Quote from: Tom45 on May 24, 2017, 09:00:00 pmProof that some people really don't know how stupid they are.

author: eugenenine
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2017, 09:06:02 pm
content: I always used a scrap piece of wood, drill some holes in it to stick parts in and label with a sharpie.Careful choice when buying a vehicle makes it easier too, I avoid timing belts, sideways engines, etc.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2017, 09:44:13 pm
content: Timing belts aren't too bad if the engine isn't sideways. I can replace the timing belt in my car in 30 minutes. I've actually done it on the side of the road once. What I don't like is the combination of timing belt + interference engine.

author: eugenenine
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2017, 10:00:31 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on May 24, 2017, 09:44:13 pmEven if they are getting easier it's still an un-necessary complexity, keep it simple so you down-to-earth have to deal either it. But I also have land in WV so I need low end torque for the mountain drive so engines with timing belts and ohc are not a good fit anyway.

author: P90
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2017, 10:13:35 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on May 24, 2017, 09:44:13 pmI hate those zero clearance motors...Not a fan of timing belts in general...

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2017, 11:22:50 pm
content: I've been driving Volvos for about 20 years, 8V OHC with a timing belt but also a turbocharger so they're great driving up over the mountains. The NA engines lose a significant amount of power at high altitude but the turbo motors still have plenty of grunt. Timing belt only has be changed every 75k miles or or 5 years so it's not a huge expenditure of effort. The one I had for the longest had 318K on it and was still running strong when a truck rear ended me and totaled it.

author: calexanian
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2017, 11:29:51 pm
content: I am going to ignore the fact that you should not just replace rings and you should to a proper bore and hone and piston replacement. Also that this all should be done with the engine out, and under very clean conditions, and that you should really just be rebuilding the engine, or get a cheap replacement engine. Additionally all of the journals will need to be re ground and polished and the bearing shells replaced, etc, etc, etc. but......I am assuming you have just pulled the head and dropped the pan, and undone the big end bolts and pulled the pistons out. Be sure you keep the right piston/rod and big end sets together and be sure to put them back in the same locations. DO NOT PUT THEM BACK IN A DIFFERENT ORDER or you will defiantly need a total rebuild.When I rebuild and engine I first rough clean all of the parts in a little parts washer or a bucket with degreaser. I have two 6 foot folding tables i place large metal oil drip catch sheets on. The rinsed metal parts go on the sheets and get with with slide rust preventative lightly sprayed on them and they all get a turn in the Berrymans Chem Dip. After that serious cleaning they get oiled and placed back on the trays in order of disassembly.BTW. Why did you need to do this? Blow by or loss on compression? If its loss of compression it was more likely a head gasket or valve seats.

author: P90
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2017, 11:34:52 pm
content: buy an electric car... no piston rings or timing belt to replace! LOL : -DD

author: P90
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2017, 12:36:00 am
content: Quote from: james_s on May 24, 2017, 11:22:50 pmI've had many Volvos over the years. Solid cars. Just change the timing belt and oil and they run forever. The older ones require servicing the crankcase ventilation system on schedule to avoid issues with blow-by and oil consumption. With a little maintenance they last forever and after driving a Volvo, any other car feels like a death trap. LOL

author: Macbeth
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2017, 01:34:38 am
content: Quote from: james_s on May 24, 2017, 09:44:13 pmIf you have the proper factory alignment tools then it's not so bad. (Factory, I mean Laser or some other copycat). With instructions. But damn, turning that ignition key on an interference engine after a DIY belt change...

author: yada
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2017, 04:06:53 am
content: Quote from: P90 on May 24, 2017, 10:13:35 pmI had timing belt come loose the day before I was going to get it replaced The idler bearing came loose, which was the reason why I scheduled to have it serviced in the first place. Interference engine blew up in 10 seconds. I saw a guy with the same Volvo as me and told him to make sure he gets the timing belt changed with all the parts. I saw the guy a month later and he told me that his engine had just blown up because the timing belt got lose. "I told you so!"

author: P90
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2017, 04:12:27 am
content: Quote from: yada on May 25, 2017, 04:06:53 amThat's why I like the motors in the old 240's, they didn't blow up if the belt broke...plus they were rear wheel drive like all cars should be...none if this front wheel drive bullshit...

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2017, 05:46:26 am
content: Yeah a lot of 850s and 960s got scrapped due to people not keeping up on the timing belt changes. Great cars, wonderful motors, powerful and silky smooth, but they never should have used a belt on the twin cam engines. Replacing the timing belt and tensioner on a rigid schedule is mandatory or you end up with a very expensive repair. I met a guy a few years ago who had a beautiful 960 wagon he got for free because it had 21 bent valves and needed a complete cylinder head overhaul.Aligning the belt isn't hard though, no special tools needed, just line up the marks on the sprockets. On the interference engines you always turn it over by hand several revolutions to make sure everything is good to go. Some guys leave the cover off the timing belt so it's easy to keep an eye on the condition.

author: razberik
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2017, 07:04:59 am
content: Quote from: CJay on May 24, 2017, 12:43:17 pmI have so much to learn.

author: P90
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2017, 07:37:57 am
content: Quote from: james_s on May 25, 2017, 05:46:26 amyeah, the 5 cylinder is nice and smooth. I've let one go over 100k without before changing the t.b. but that's pushing it and not recommended. basic maintenance and they run forever, and one of the safest cars...

author: calexanian
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2017, 03:14:31 pm
content: Quote from: P90 on May 25, 2017, 04:12:27 amIf its a 240 Z you speak of those engines are an evolution of the Prince design which was built under Lic. from Mercedes. The L series motors are under appreciated as all the kids are ripping them out and shoving in KA20's or other such things. L series has plenty of webbing and bottom end to support way higher power. The good news is you can buy good L16's and transmissions for cheap right now, but that won't last. I have been thinking about getting a set for my second roadster which is a 1600. A L16 and a 5 speed would be a nice upgrade. That car however is still in a state of rust as I have been concentrating on my 2000.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2017, 03:26:47 pm
content: Quote from: P90 on May 25, 2017, 07:37:57 amThe safety aspect is one of the things that attracted me in the first place and one that I hoped I'd never have to use but a few months ago it saved me from what could have been much worse. I stopped in traffic that was backed up on the freeway, the car behind me stopped, and a few seconds later a tandem trailer gasoline tanker semi plowed into that car at highway speed, smashed it into mine, that knocked me forward a good distance and spun my car around. Then before I had stopped sliding the still moving semi plowed into my front fender and pushed my car sideways down the freeway until it all finally came to a stop. Once I came to my senses I set the parking brake, took off my seatbelt, got out and walked away. I don't know what happened to the guy in the Accura behind me, he had been loaded into an ambulance before the responders came over to talk to me. I found parts of his car stuck to mine along with a spray of coolant and engine oil. I'm still bummed about the car, I'd been driving it for 17 years and kept it immaculate inside and out. Many of the parts will live on in my other cars though.

author: HighVoltage
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2017, 03:56:27 pm
content: Sometime times have not much choice....When I moved to the US, my first car was a 1964 Pointiac and the automatic transmission broke down in Los Angeles and every repair shop wanted more money for the repair than I paid for the car. So I repaired it myself in some backyard without proper tools or table. It was kind of amazing how many part one can find inside such GM transmission. People came by to take a look and told me that this will probably never run again. Well, a couple days later I had found the problem (broken spring from a little tiny ball vale) and put it all back together and it worked perfectly.Sometimes we just have to do it.

author: PartialDischarge
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2017, 04:06:38 pm
content: QuoteVolvos are great, I drive one and still change the oil and filters myself as If I were still a student, I don't do it for the savings, but because I don't trust others dirty hands in the engine. Definitively looking forward driving the new V90 cross crountry some day,

author: PartialDischarge
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2017, 04:16:12 pm
content: Can't beat this crash test certification

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2017, 04:46:39 pm
content: Quote from: calexanian on May 25, 2017, 03:14:31 pmIt's a Volvo 240 he's speaking of. The B21/B23/B230 series engines are practically bulletproof. Cast iron block, alloy head, stout internals, they're dependable and easy to work on. My brother had a heater hose burst and dump all the coolant, he didn't notice anything was wrong until the head gasket failed and it started running rough. I put a new gasket on, replaced the valve stem seals and replaced the timing belt cover that melted and he's still driving it now years later. My mother has one that she bought brand new in 1986 and it's still her daily driver, 340k miles on it and the engine has never been opened up.

author: vodka
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2017, 05:11:22 pm
content: Quote from: Miyuki on May 24, 2017, 08:18:37 pmOn the street and the kind of fix like you have done, that you have teardown half car , on the 99%(i think) the spanish councils is bannedOnly little fix, like change bulb fuse(if you don't have to teardown mid car), replace the wheel and other things

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2017, 06:37:16 pm
content: It probably depends on the specific location and whether or not someone complains. On my street you are not allowed to leave a car for more than 48 hours, but I've seen cars parked that didn't move for weeks. Usually nothing happens unless someone complains. Downtown you could not get away with doing major work on the side of the road but out in a rural area nobody would care.

author: calexanian
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2017, 06:58:48 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on May 25, 2017, 04:46:39 pmOh. Ok. those are good. the head gaskets used to leak in one of the coolant paths though. That was the most common complaint. Other than that they just keep on going. Aftermarket gaskets usually fixed that.

author: BradC
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2017, 07:46:45 pm
content: Quote from: MasterTech on May 25, 2017, 04:16:12 pmAnd that is why I drive a Swedish fridge on wheels. RWD and prior to Fords pollution of the brand.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2017, 08:31:50 pm
content: I'd take Ford any day over the current Chinese ownership. IMHO Volvo as a car company is pretty much dead.

author: med6753
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2017, 01:47:08 am
content: Since the subject of timing belts came up you wanna see some carnage? I got it.Background: 2004 Honda Civic Coupe. D17 engine. Bought new in June 2004. On December 15, 2010 at 117953 miles (189K km) had a shop replace the timing belt, tensioner and water pump. I was going to do it myself but didn't have the time. I provided the shop with the parts and they did the labor.Exactly 1 year later, December 13, 2011 at 134293 miles (216K km). I was doing a routine shift from 1st to 2nd gear. There was a loud bang and the engine shut down. Would not restart. Noticed the starter was spinning super fast so I suspected that the timing belt snapped.Had it towed to a different shop. Engine teardown. Confirmed....broken timing belt. They were going to pull the head and see the extent of the damage. All 16 valves bent. They checked the bottom end of the engine (Pistons, connecting rods, crankshaft, etc) and the shop determined that there was no additional damage. Recommendation was to rebuild the head. I agreed. The shop could not determine why the belt broke but they suspected that the tensioner spring popped and allowed the belt to come off.One of the 16 bent valvesThe shredded belt wrapped around the tensionerThe shop found the mangled tensioner spring down by the crankshaft pulleyWhen the belt snapped it also broke the crankshaft position sensor. That piece of plastic was $100 USDThe Civic was in the shop for 2 weeks while the head was out for rebuild. Total cost was just over $2K USD. The shop did excellent work. Ran fine.I still own the Civic and up until June of 2016 it was a “daily driver”. It has just under 187K miles (301K km). It's now in semi-retirement and driven once or twice a week. There have been no ill effects from the timing belt disaster in 2011. No increase in oil consumption, no odd noises. Runs great!

author: P90
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2017, 01:58:48 am
content: Quote from: med6753 on May 26, 2017, 01:47:08 amthey probably reused the old tensioner or it was a shitty part, more so than the original

author: med6753
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2017, 02:10:32 am
content: I provided the shop with the parts. The timing belt and water pump were Honda OEM parts. The tensioner was Dayco which are decent parts. It was made in Japan, including the bearing assembly. No Chinese junk. And I see no reason why the shop wouldn't have changed the tensioner although anything is possible. It's a mystery as to why it broke.

author: P90
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2017, 03:18:38 am
content: Quote from: med6753 on May 26, 2017, 02:10:32 amThat's why I hate having anyone work on my cars... it's a gamble... lol... unfortunately with my bad back I don't always have a choice...

author: CJay
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2017, 06:12:28 am
content: Quote from: med6753 on May 26, 2017, 01:47:08 amNasty, I had an 'S' shaped one somewhere that I found in the bottom of a gas analyser we bought (mechanics used to store all sorts of crap in the cabinets)

author: Gromitt
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2017, 09:28:44 am
content: Quote from: james_s on May 25, 2017, 08:31:50 pmActually, Ford was more or less a disaster for Volvo Cars and everybody was happy when they left. Geely is expanding Volvo Cars and Volvo has never sold as many cars as they do now.

author: PartialDischarge
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2017, 11:40:40 am
content: Quote from: GeorgeOfTheJungle on May 24, 2017, 01:00:40 pmHmmm, just noticed at the back,. Do you fly in powered paragliding??

author: rdl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2017, 01:58:09 pm
content: These "interference engines" seem like a very poor design to me. A relatively cheap, normal wear part can cause thousands of dollars damage when it fails? As if a light bulb failing could blow the roof off your house! Okay, not exactly but it still seems like there should be some kind of consumer information warning when selling a vehicle.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2017, 03:41:27 pm
content: Interference engines have been very common for decades, practically all modern cars have them though about half use a timing chain that is less likely to fail than the belt. There are warnings and the information is clearly provided in the owners manual for the cars, the problem is that people don't bother to read the instructions. You have to change the oil regularly too, that information is also in the manual and most people know they need to do it. The belt driven interference engines seem to be more common in Japanese and European cars. Perhaps there's a cultural difference in terms of paying attention to the maintenance requirements. The timing belt is a routine maintenance item, you have it replaced at a regular interval of 50k-100k miles depending on the car.

author: tonyjohn29
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: May 26, 2017, 04:08:15 pm
content: Oh my god it's amazing whole engine is out! The body of the car seems to be new.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2017, 04:38:13 pm
content: Quote from: P90 on May 24, 2017, 10:13:35 pmIt depends on how the valves are aligned with the pistons. On my previous car (diesel) the timing belt got messed up but because the valves where in line with the pistons only the bridge which drove the valves got broken. Easy repair once I found the broken bridge. My current car needs special tools and removing the engine head cover to replace the timing belt (every 160k km / 100k miles) so I bring it to a garage for that job but given the long interval I won't have it replaced again but just get rid of the car instead.

author: calexanian
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2017, 08:28:00 pm
content: Interference engine design is necessary to satisfy today's emission and efficiency standards. High compression for efficiency and smooth combustion chamber at high compression yields a cleaner burn and therefore less NOX and CO emissions. Sometimes they can get away from it in Turbo engines where the compression does not need to be as high, but those are the acception.

author: med6753
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2017, 02:01:14 am
content: Quote from: james_s on May 26, 2017, 03:41:27 pmStarting with the 8th generation Honda Civic in 2006 the 4 cylinder engine uses a timing chain. My other vehicle is a 2013 Honda CR-V and that 2.4 liter DOHC 4 cylinder engine also uses a timing chain. All Honda 4 cylinder engines sold in North America now use timing chains but I think the Honda V-6 engines are still using timing belts due to their greater complexity.