What Is Causing The Note 7 Phones To Explode? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: iamdarkyoshi
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2016, 02:37:18 am
content: I thought I might as well start a discussion about what is causing the note 7 phones to explode.If you have been living under a rock, Samsung's Note 7 is a flagship phone with pretty damn amazing specs. They had many reports of them catching fire, seemingly at random.They started rolling out replacements, and the replacements are having issues with photonicinduction syndrome as well.According to this article:http://www.cnbc.com/2016/10/09/samsung-has-temporarily-suspended-production-of-galaxy-note-7-report.htmlProduction has been suspended.What do you think is causing the issues?Bad lithium batteries? Out of spec charge circuitry?I thought it might be the charge circuitry overcharging it or something, but why do they blow up whenever they feel like it? Exploding while charging is one thing, but exploding while sitting doing nothing is another.Do you have any ideas as to what could cause them to go thermonuclear?

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2016, 03:27:54 am
content: Substandard batteries I believe...

author: System Error Message
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2016, 04:31:58 am
content: i wouldnt blame it on substandard batteries, a powerful lithium battery when not coupled with a protection circuit is very explosive. It looks like as if there is either no battery protection circuit or there is but is but is either faulty or poorly designed.So it could either be from the phone division of battery division depending on who makes the protection circuit.The batteries explode if given too much voltage, draw too much current or when they get damaged like when someone tries to stab you and you use your phone as a shield.

author: ZeTeX
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2016, 05:52:08 am
content: I don't see how Samsung can f*ck up something so simple that has been for years like charging \ discharging protection, unless they use magic, the protection circuits are supposed to be almost the same like in any other smartphone? so why would it suddenly be faulty and they could not repair it in 5 minutes?"Samsung earlier said it was investigating reports of "heat damage issues" and would share its findings when the investigation is complete."I'm fairly positive there is something wrong with the battery they are using in note 7, of-course understanding why battery suddenly explode compare to just a faulty charging discharging circuit takes much longer so maybe that's why the just suspended the production.

author: ChunkyPastaSauce
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 10, 2016, 06:23:04 am
content: Quote from: System Error Message on October 10, 2016, 04:31:58 amProtection circuits guard against particular failure modes, they wont protect the battery from all failure modes (for example a battery manufacturing defect leading to an internal short can be hard/impossible to detect and even if detected hard/impossible to halt, and can remain dormant for years)

author: amspire
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2016, 06:42:08 am
content: I think they just pushed the limits too far. It is not a physically big battery - about half the width of the phone, maybe 60% of the height and maybe 5mm thick, and yet the capacity has been increased from the previous Note from 3AH to 3.5AH. They have also added USB Type-C connector, so they can probably charge must faster then before. The CPU/GPU can probably draw much more peak power. This 3.5 AH battery is much smaller then a 1.75 AH battery from a few years ago.They took a gamble and failed. If you blame a sub-standard battery, it is probably more realistic to say that they required a battery that was better then anything that had been made before. They didn't get it.

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2016, 06:52:26 am
content: I got the feeling it was more random contamination inside the cell that can cause a hotspot to form.If so this would totally bypass the cell protection.

author: Ice-Tea
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2016, 07:00:31 am
content: Quote from: ZeTeX on October 10, 2016, 05:52:08 amAsk Boeing. Just saying, Lithium charging may not be magic but there's always potential for disaster. And I suppose people tend to forget that.Also: Apple is throwing a party. They hired Samsung for the fireworks.

author: AndyC_772
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2016, 07:01:59 am
content: Don't forget, phones are made in enormous quantities.In many cases, a 1-in-a-million chance of failure would probably be deemed an acceptable risk, if indeed such an unlikely event were identified as a risk at all.But for something built in vast numbers, even that tiny chance means failures will occur. And, of course, thanks to the internet, the fact that the story has become fashionable, and that the failure mode is spectacular rather than boring, we probably get to hear about most of them. If a handful of phones ended up with, say, unresponsive touchscreens, nobody but their owners would know or care.I imagine this is a tremendously difficult problem for Samsung's engineers to solve. They can build thousands of test units, and they'll find that they all work perfectly, with no symptoms to investigate, and so no clues as to where the fault lies.Then, from time to time, they get a report that another one has caught fire - and in the process, destroyed all the useful evidence that might have helped identify what went wrong.I doubt we'll ever get a definitive answer. Something will get changed, and perhaps by coincidence, the failures may stop happening. Nobody will ever truly know whether the fault was "fixed", or whether the next batch just happens not to have some random manufacturing glitch that was really responsible.

author: amspire
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2016, 07:16:30 am
content: Quote from: Psi on October 10, 2016, 06:52:26 amIt could be, but it only a tiny percentage of all the batteries that are burning and if they had a much higher safety margin in the design, probably none of them would have failed. I think blaming random contamination sounds better then saying they got greedy and pushed the design too far. Blaming contamination implies that all you need to do it tighten quality control and no more exploding batteries. We will see.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 10, 2016, 07:18:00 am
content: Quote from: iamdarkyoshi on October 10, 2016, 02:37:18 amThat! I wouldn't think that something as simple as a charge controller would be at fault, considering they've released how many phones over the years?

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2016, 08:05:39 am
content: I know some (lithium) battery manufacturers will charge/discharge and format their batteries in elevated temperature environment. Maybe Samsung is skimping on this? In any case, this can be either hotspotting, due to material thickness. I believe it has to do more with the phone's construction. These SOCs will generate a lot of heat, so they will drain the battery quickly, and heat up. They are running android, which can decide on it's own, to run the SOC at 100% because some stupid app will decide that.Now, phones are becoming thin, so a lot of the heat is going through the battery. Warm SOC close to the battery, draining battery, power supply working like crazy. This is the receipt for disaster.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2016, 09:03:10 am
content: Rumors seem to indicate that the separator in the batteries is rarely (about 1 in 10,000 of the phones) breached, usually during rapid charging, this then can cause a fire/explosion, as the battery is effectively short-circuiting itself.Investigating why the thin insulator (in the batteries), sometimes has too much pressure (and hence can be breached), can take a long time and be very difficult (apparently).They may also be patching the software, so that the charging routines, don't get fooled into charging up batteries too much, when they are faulty. (details about that rumor are a bit sketchy).The best source I can find so far is this:https://www.cnet.com/uk/news/why-is-samsung-galaxy-note-7-exploding-overheating/tl;drFaulty batteries, particularly their separators (insulators).

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2016, 10:07:30 am
content: Putting my cynical hat on.....A competitor of Samsung would know that any reported "incident" on a replacement for a recalled phone would be catastrophic for them.Wouldn't be hard to arrange.Just sayin'....

author: djococaud
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2016, 10:17:37 am
content: Don't forget dumb people putting their phones in their jeans back pocket and sitting on it...and then crying that their phone malfunction...

author: iamdarkyoshi
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2016, 10:18:44 am
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on October 10, 2016, 10:07:30 amI know at least one of the reported cases had the owner's original box with serial number on it, which was the serial for a replacement phone. Again, this COULD have been faked, but I honestly doubt it.

author: StuUK
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2016, 10:23:33 am
content: My money is on a perfect catharsis of design flaws leading to a spectacular fail and not one particular thing such as a batch of bad batteries... might make an interesting video to demonstrate how heat/bad charging can lead to battery fails though..... not one for indoors though....

author: iamdarkyoshi
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2016, 10:30:49 am
content: Quote from: StuUK on October 10, 2016, 10:23:33 amThe EEVBlog curse...Nothing will happen on camera, no matter what is done, the battery won't misbehaveAs soon as the camera is turned off, BOOM!Maybe samsung should have an internal battery camera.As for those blaming the thickness of the battery, maybe... But my nexus 6p has a 3.45Ah battery and also charges through USB type C... I might be going tinfoil hat here but I don't use the quickcharger anymore :/

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2016, 10:40:26 am
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on October 10, 2016, 10:07:30 amWell, recalling 2 million phones worth, say 300 EUR is 600 million eur loss for Samsung. People will forget this in a month, and buy the new Galaxy S/Note 789. You can do a lot more damage with layers, just sue them, that their rectangles are rounded.

author: bktemp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2016, 10:53:50 am
content: Quote from: iamdarkyoshi on October 10, 2016, 10:30:49 amIf you turn the charging voltage high enough it will happen instantly: I did this a long time ago. After charging to almost 5V for a couple of hours the battery inflated, but nothing else happend. After turning the voltage up to 40V the battery ignited almost instantly (the high voltage probably created a spark, igniting the hydrogen and other flamable gasses produced by the overcharged battery).There are many photos or videos of bulged batteries, but almost none of them experienced a catastrophic failure, because nothing ignited the gasses.Pushing the design too far (making the insulator too thin) sounds plausible to me, because this creates the necessary sparks for igniting the battery when the insulator failes. Even if there are no flamable gasses that can catch fire, the heat generated by shorting the battery internally should be enough for melting all the plastic components of the phone.

author: GreggD
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2016, 01:25:24 pm
content: I read somewhere that the battery was a tight fit and may be pinched causing separator punch through and that the replacement battery was thinner with less amp hour capacity. I also wonder if the electrodes are made with the proper overlap to prevent Li metal formation at the electrode edge.

author: Refrigerator
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2016, 02:42:31 pm
content: Quote from: djococaud on October 10, 2016, 10:17:37 amMakes me feel bad for the phone when i see it in the backpocket of someone's skinny jeans getting sat on and all that, must be rough on the phone.

author: RGB255_0_0
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2016, 02:51:26 pm
content: Quote from: Refrigerator on October 10, 2016, 02:42:31 pmFor iPhone 6 and 6 Pluses it's leading to touch IC "disease". So, yes, it is bad for at least some phones.

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2016, 02:57:31 pm
content: Quote from: bktemp on October 10, 2016, 10:53:50 amThe battery is non-removable (at least not easily) so I wonder if they were already somewhat defective internally/being overcharged, causing them to bulge onto something internally and puncture or short out. If they were removable they'd probably just pop the back cover off, and the bulging would separate the layers and make things less reactive. But in these phones the battery is tightly confined...

author: iamdarkyoshi
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2016, 01:53:07 pm
content: At this point, I think it is a hardware issue.https://linustechtips.com/main/topic/674106-samsung-to-permanently-discontinue-galaxy-note-7-smartphone-according-to-wall-street-journal/

author: frenky
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 11, 2016, 06:30:38 pm
content: Some info about possible causes:According to one person who has spoken to Samsung executives, problems with the phone appeared to have arisen from tweaks to the processor to speed up the rate at which the phone could be charged. That would suggest it was not an issue with the battery itself, as Samsung initially speculated, or the design of the phone, but with the underlying technology.“If you try to charge the battery too quickly it can make it more volatile. If you push an engine too hard, it will explode. Something had to give. These devices are miracles of technology — how much we can get out of that tiny piece of lithium-ion,” the person told the Financial Times.https://www.ft.com/content/58d215d4-8f69-11e6-a72e-b428cb934b78

author: dexters_lab
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 11, 2016, 08:32:46 pm
content: on the news today... reports of the fixed phone catching on fire and that production has ended permanently, i guess the bad press means nobody would want to buy it now anyway!http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-37618618

author: AndyC_772
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2016, 08:46:55 pm
content: I would. 10 or 20 failures out of 2.5 million units? I'd take that chance; it's far more likely I'll have a serious motorbike accident than my phone will catch fire, whatever the model.Seems most owners feel the same way. There's only one for sale on Ebay, and it's not cheap.Shame, I was thinking of picking up a bargain.

author: Len
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2016, 08:59:30 pm
content: Quote from: AndyC_772 on October 11, 2016, 08:46:55 pm10 or 20 failuresthat you've heard of, in the first few weeks.I certainly wouldn't put any money on one of these things, now that barbecue season is over.

author: Alexei.Polkhanov
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2016, 09:41:38 pm
content: Who makes the battery? Samsung? Who else uses these batteries? In what devices?

author: Len
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2016, 09:51:04 pm
content: Quote from: Alexei.Polkhanov on October 11, 2016, 09:41:38 pmTwo companies have made Note 7 batteries: Samsung SDI and Amperex (part of TDK). Originally the TDK batteries were supposed to be OK so they were used in the replacement phones, which now also have problems.Refs:https://www.ft.com/content/d7445be2-8f9c-11e6-8df8-d3778b55a923http://www.wsj.com/articles/samsungs-massive-galaxy-note-7-recall-brings-battery-maker-into-focus-1473082175(just took a minute with Google)

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2016, 09:17:26 am
content: Quote from: NANDBlog on October 10, 2016, 10:40:26 amOk, so an update: Samsung said, it costs them 3 billion $ to recall the phones and:"The negative impact is estimated in the mid-2 trillion won range for the fourth quarter of 2016 and at approximately 1 trillion won for the first quarter of 2017."http://www.theverge.com/2016/10/13/13280000/samsung-galaxy-note-7-recall-3-billion-costThat is beyond my wildest imagination.

author: TerraHertz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2016, 10:19:36 am
content: Might be relevant:DEFCON 19: Battery Firmware Hacking

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2016, 11:22:38 am
content: samsung is Korea's largest defense contractor. Making explosives is one of its core competency, :0

author: StuUK
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2016, 11:34:26 am
content: Quote from: TerraHertz on October 14, 2016, 10:19:36 amImagine if this turned out to be a virus causing the recall....

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2016, 05:35:13 pm
content: Or sabotage by digruntled employees :http://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/10/13/leaked_samsung_doc_highlights_toxic_culture/

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2016, 06:27:11 pm
content: I wonder if delay in releasing of the new Samsung S3 tablet has to do with this battery problem.

author: ez24
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2016, 12:03:24 am
content: Quote from: System Error Message on October 10, 2016, 04:31:58 amUL said this. Tonight a local university has banned them from campus !Always knew Costco was slow on tech. This came out today, Oct. 14, 2016 after the US said no S7s on any plane.http://membershipwireless.com/content/wirelessdeal3?utm_source=COSTCO&utm_medium=HEROEMAIL&utm_content=VZWOCTMVM

author: TheSteve
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 15, 2016, 12:12:34 am
content: The phone has two different charge controllers in it. The primary one which is part of the main SOC and a secondary one which is used to help with the super fast turbo charging. Perhaps one of the them goes bonkers now and then and shorts the battery.I suspect the charge circuitry more then the batteries at this point. That might also explain why they have discontinued the entire thing - a simple hardware flaw.

author: Cyberdragon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2016, 01:10:51 am
content: Quote from: dexters_lab on October 11, 2016, 08:32:46 pmWHAT THE ACTUAL F- SAMSUNG?!!You are just going to admit defeat and let Crapple dominate and turn people into proprietary sheeple slaves to throw money at them when they keep making the most basic technology incompatable with their devices?! Your huge corporation couldn't figure out a solution to this?!Since it seems that the actual battery is most likely not at fault...I have a possible solution...and it consists of a singe word!Can you guess what it is?Hint: the technology is almost two centuries oldBecoming obvious yet?Because the word is...FFFFFFUUUUUUUSSSSSE!!!!!...directly inline with one of the battery terminals, before anything else! Even if it didn't work it would confirm it was the battery itself!Voltamort is done here.But he is not done screaming "FFFFFFUUUUUUUSSSSSE!!!!!" at Samsung!

author: iamdarkyoshi
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2016, 05:39:22 pm
content: Quote from: Cyberdragon on October 15, 2016, 01:10:51 amNot entirely sure a fuse would help here, I think it is an internal short in the otherwise non faulty battery caused by the phone's charge hardware damaging the battery over time.Either way, I think dave jones should do a video on how NOT to charge lithium batteries (exceeding the C ratings, overcharging, trickling, etc)I want fucking explosions. -photonicinduction

author: Cyberdragon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2016, 07:16:54 pm
content: If the battery is being overcharged by a shorted FET somewhere than the solution would still be a fuse...a thermal fuse.

author: canada13records
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: October 15, 2016, 08:14:53 pm
content: Temperature, pressure, voltage and rate of charge are the major contributors to battery failure. It is possible that with the consumer demand to have faster charging phones, Samsung has pushed the battery to the limit. Unfortunately most of the test Samsung would have performed were likely not in fully assembled systems with the processor running full blast. The additional heat of the closed system coupled with the tight form factor could push the battery to expand while charging. This would cause the battery to become compressed by the enclosure and then allow the anode and cathode to either crystalize the electrolyte and short, or just get too close and short out. Short = fire.

author: iamdarkyoshi
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2016, 06:15:23 pm
content: And now they are offering an extra 100$ to anyone who turns in their phone to buy a different scamscum phone.https://linustechtips.com/main/topic/675354-samsung-to-note-7-owners-heres-an-extra-100-for-your-phone/

author: AndyC_772
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2016, 06:46:01 am
content: Quote from: canada13records on October 15, 2016, 08:14:53 pmWhy do you say that? What other test case do you think they'd have used?More likely, IMHO, is that they ran perfectly good stress tests on thousands of phones, and found no problems. The fault only applies to a tiny percentage of units, after all.I wonder if this whole debacle will be the kick up the arse that the industry so desperately needs, to stop embedding non-removable batteries in every single phone they make?If you were in the smart phone business right now, would you continue with a design in which a potentially faulty battery couldn't simply be removed and swapped for a new one?

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2016, 07:26:43 am
content: The problem they have to make the batteries swappable again is space, they don't have any space left and as you can see with Apple they try to out-design everything they can (headphone jack) to gain more space.Another solution could be an easy fast hot swappable battery (so they need an onboard buffer for two to three minutes to keep the phone powered while swapping batteries).

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2016, 08:53:47 am
content: Quote from: Kjelt on October 17, 2016, 07:26:43 amNope. I have swappable battery in my Nokia 830. It has NFC, Qi charging, headphone jack, and a micro usb port, and uSD card. I can even replace the back side, and have different colors. You can fit all of these into a reasonable size phone. The issue is, they want to fit unnecessary features, like 4GB or RAM and 8 cores, and 10 minute charging.

author: AndyC_772
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2016, 08:57:35 am
content: Phones aren't constrained for physical size; in fact they're getting bigger with each generation. Making them as thin as possible is a fashion statement, not a technical requirement, and adding 1mm to the thickness to accommodate a removable battery cover won't stop the phone from working.Apple's decision to remove the headphone socket has nothing to do with space, whatever the marketing fluff might say.

author: Ice-Tea
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2016, 08:38:15 am
content: Quote from: AndyC_772 on October 17, 2016, 08:57:35 amNo, but it will stop it from selling.

author: iamdarkyoshi
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2016, 04:32:17 pm
content: Quote from: Ice-Tea on October 18, 2016, 08:38:15 amIf my nexus 6p had a fat variant with twice the battery life and a halfway rugged chassis, I would have bought thatThe thinner phones get, the thicker the case needed to protect them

author: Ice-Tea
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2016, 06:19:50 pm
content: Quote from: iamdarkyoshi on October 18, 2016, 04:32:17 pmThat's you. And then there's all the yups in Manhattan that are ticking the boxes: oh, 8 cores and the other only has 7, 7.3mm and the other is, like really fat at 7.5mm.I agree with you and many of the others but the market is fixated on silly numbers. And odly, somehow, the concensus is that battery life is not an important number.

author: iamdarkyoshi
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2016, 11:20:56 pm
content: Quote from: Ice-Tea on October 18, 2016, 06:19:50 pmThis. Right here.There is no reason I should drain most of my 3.5Ah battery listening to music all dayThats roughly 1.25w constantly, just playing music.My old sansa fuse mp3 player could literally last a month doing that on one charge.

author: TheSteve
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 18, 2016, 11:30:09 pm
content: Quote from: iamdarkyoshi on October 18, 2016, 04:32:17 pmAlmost everyone I know wants a bigger battery. I have a Moto Maxx with a 3900 mAh battery and I love it.

author: Cyberdragon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2016, 11:32:09 pm
content: Quote from: iamdarkyoshi on October 18, 2016, 11:20:56 pmAirplane mode, otherwise it will keep trying to receive and transmit data for all your apps.

author: iamdarkyoshi
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2016, 02:03:45 am
content: Quote from: Cyberdragon on October 18, 2016, 11:32:09 pmA phone shouldn't have do that though. My dell venue 8 tablet has probably the best battery I have seen for a portable smart device, handling like 6 hours of screen time

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2016, 03:04:26 am
content: Quote from: iamdarkyoshi on October 19, 2016, 02:03:45 amYour Venue 8 has a huge battery and doesn't have a multi-watt RF transmitter in it.

author: hamster_nz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2016, 09:10:43 pm
content: Anybody remember when Apple's phones were catching fire back in 2014???https://9to5mac.com/2014/02/22/this-is-what-an-iphone-5s-looks-like-when-its-battery-catches-fire-and-explodes/https://9to5mac.com/2014/02/03/14yo-schoolgirl-receives-2nd-degree-burns-when-iphone-5c-reportedly-catches-fire-in-her-pocket/http://www.ksdk.com/news/local/5-on-your-side/iphone-explodes-in-st-peters-mans-pocket/265410117http://www.pcadvisor.co.uk/feature/apple/iphone-fires-what-you-need-know-3323855/https://9to5mac.com/2016/08/02/iphone-6-fire-cycling-fall-australia/http://www.phonearena.com/news/iPhone-6-Plus-catches-fire-in-mans-bed_id77021Is the Note 7 really that bad? Why no pre-flight warning on Apple phones back in 2014 ?

author: RGB255_0_0
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2016, 09:30:44 pm
content: Those are pretty sporadic and you didn't see tens of them spontaneously combusting within hours and days of being released, suffering a recall, and the re-release suffering the same fate.

author: TerraHertz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2016, 11:29:46 pm
content: Comedy value, as the Note 7 farce continues.http://www.theverge.com/2016/10/19/13333386/samsung-galaxy-note-7-gta-mod-youtube-takedownSamsung made YouTube remove video of GTA mod that turns Note 7 into a bomb

author: ConKbot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2016, 12:01:02 am
content: Quote from: RGB255_0_0 on October 10, 2016, 02:51:26 pmHah, saw a louis rossman video a few months ago where he more that the bga touch IC on the 6 didn't have underfill like everything else in the area on the phones and he predicted there was going to be a bunch of touch screen failures. Looks like he was right.

author: Don Hills
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2016, 11:41:15 am
content: Quote from: TerraHertz onTodayat 10:29:46 AM

author: JPortici
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2016, 11:49:51 am
content: Quote from: iamdarkyoshi on October 18, 2016, 04:32:17 pmAlways made me laugh and facepalm at the same time.thinner and thinner phones but need a cover + screen protector so it doesn't fall apart at the first incident. Final thickness is greater than the previous generation phone and absudly hight profit margin on accessories are made

author: AndyC_772
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2016, 01:22:58 pm
content: Quote from: Ice-Tea on October 18, 2016, 06:19:50 pmBattery life isn't hugely important to me in terms of the number of hours' usage I can get from the phone between charges. The only time I ever find myself in danger of running out is when services I'm not using somehow end up remaining enabled, and that's a software problem, not a hardware one.I do, however, absolutely care about battery life in terms of how many years' service I can get out of a phone before the battery no longer holds a useful charge. I absolutely do want a phone in which I can change the battery when it wears out, but of course, the industry has collectively agreed it's beneficial for manufacturers (not me) if no such option is available.That's why I'd like to hope that this incident serves as a kick up the arse for the industry. I don't care if the official justification for going back to replaceable batteries is "safety" or "environment" or <insert corporate BS about meeting customer expectations here>. I just care that it happens.

author: gnavigator1007
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 21, 2016, 03:12:53 pm
content: Quote from: TheSteve on October 18, 2016, 11:30:09 pmI bought a 9000 mAh zero lemon battery for my lg v10 a few months back. Phone is quite thick now. I've never been someone that drops their phone anyway, but it definitely feels more secure in my hand now. Went with the v10 specifically because it was the only phone with a large screen that still had an easily removable battery and micro sd support. The stock lg 3000 mAh battery was a joke for this phone. Now if I desire to, I can stream HD video for over 20 hours without needing to charge. Much of my city lost power to a hurricane last month and it was crazy seeing everyone trying to find outlets to charge their devices in stores and restaurants. Luckily, my wife and I only went four days with no power and the phone battery was not an issue. I could probably make it a week or more with light use, but I lurk here far too often.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2016, 01:55:23 am
content: What we really need is a portable pedal or crank charger that's actually decent. Fat is about 50 times as energy dense as lithium ions, about 10 after conversion losses. And at least in the US, there seems to be an almost unlimited surplus of it.

author: John Heath
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2016, 05:21:23 pm
content: What should be remembers is it is only 1 out of 40,000 note 7 that are burning up. For unreported cases and still to burn call it 1 in 5000. I know someone that hard his garage burn down from charging his lithium electric drill. At best I only know 50 people with lithium batteries. Of the 50 people one had his garage burn down. Could it be that problems with lithium batteries is larger than the latest Samsung note 7 NEWS.

author: iamdarkyoshi
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2016, 11:02:10 pm
content: Quote from: John Heath on October 23, 2016, 05:21:23 pmFair enough, but how many iphone 7's have violently exploded so far?

author: John Heath
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2016, 11:50:35 pm
content: Can not say how many note 7s have the pocket warming feature other than a yahoo video saying it was 1 in 45,000. I would guess 1 in 5,000 by the time it is over. However consider how many 380 air planes are flying. A wild guess would be 20 or 30. 1 of those 30 air planes had a fire in the side caused by the new and nifty lithium batteries to save weight. The 380 has been redesigned with a different battery. That is 1 out of 30 ! and you can imagine they tested the pieces out of it before deciding to go with lithium. To give this balance technology has to be pushed to the limits in today's competitive market.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2016, 02:30:19 am
content: Wasn't it the Boeing 787 that had a bunch of battery issues? The interesting part is that if they used the slightly heavier (but much safer) lithium manganese batteries rather than the highly flammable lithium cobalt batteries, replacing just one average American passenger with one as skinny as Tiffany Yep would cancel out the weight difference! If that small amount of weight made such a difference, they should encourage sustainable weight loss.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2016, 03:31:46 am
content: Quote from: AndyC_772 on October 21, 2016, 01:22:58 pmIt seems to be really straightforward to replace an iPhone battery, especially with the later models. It is barely more complicated than replacing a watch battery. I would have no hesitation in taking on the job if my phone battery needed replacing.

author: iamdarkyoshi
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2016, 04:15:18 am
content: Quote from: IanB on October 24, 2016, 03:31:46 amI really hope to never have to take my nexus 6p apart.Somehow, they made it even harder to take apart than iphones, which I really didn't think was possible.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2016, 04:28:56 am
content: Quote from: iamdarkyoshi on October 24, 2016, 04:15:18 amWith the iPhone 6 all you have to do is remove two screws and pop the case apart. With the iPhone 7 it got more complicated as they made it waterproof, which means the case is glued together to keep water out.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2016, 09:29:21 am
content: Quote from: Cyberdragon on October 18, 2016, 11:32:09 pmNope, it is the stupid android draining the battery. I have 2-3 days of battery life from my Nokia 830, because it is running Windows.

author: John Heath
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2016, 12:12:33 pm
content: Quote from: NiHaoMike on October 24, 2016, 02:30:19 amWith a little googling I see you are right. It was the 787

author: Alexei.Polkhanov
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2016, 04:10:07 pm
content: Quote from: NANDBlog on October 24, 2016, 09:29:21 amI am still using my Nokia N900, with Maemo Linux, battery lasts 4 days. You can drain battery in 2 hours on any OS if you play games or watch videos or run service apps.BTW I am still looking for replacement for my N900, Jolla which runs Sailfish seems like a perfect choice, but it looks like they are downsizing now and I have to go through hoops to buy it in Canada

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 28, 2016, 11:57:31 am
content: I cannot wait to find out what the real cause of these failures was. Samsung isn't a newbie at phones and batteries, they will have done their homework and checked off every item on every design checklist. This is going to prove to be some very, very subtle thing that would have been difficult or impossible to foresee.

author: Alexei.Polkhanov
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 28, 2016, 09:56:00 pm
content: Have any of exploded/burned phones made it back to Samsung for investigation? I don't think so. What were serial numbers of failed units? 100005, 100006, 100008, ... ?How would you prepare yourself and your company for investigation into 1/100000 chance failure? It is not a rhetorical question actually.

author: John Heath
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2016, 02:48:10 pm
content: With 1 in 100,000 odds outside variables start to become possibilities. How many people are involved in electronics? Lets call that 1 % This means 1000 Samsung phone out of 100,000 are in the hands of someone that is in electronics. Of that 1000 1% is a incurable hack that wants to charge the phone faster. I myself have entertained putting resistors on the USB data lines for a faster charge of my Samsung phone. The reason for this is Samsung puts a known resistor on their USB chargers data lines. If the phone does not detect this resistor it will only take a 1 amp charge not 2 amps. I suspect the reason they do this is to not damage computer USB ports by pulling 2 amps. This is just one example of outside variables could be the cause with odds are in the 1 in 100,000 range. Would such a hacker with a burned lithium battery pay 600 dollars for a new phone or play dumb with hands in the air for a free phone. Human nature being what it is it will be

author: iamdarkyoshi
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2016, 04:02:35 pm
content: Quote from: John Heath on October 30, 2016, 02:48:10 pmThese phone charge using USB type C, so its not that simple anymore

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 30, 2016, 05:05:19 pm
content: Quote from: NANDBlog on October 24, 2016, 09:29:21 amNo, it's a ton of crap installed on top of that android + every possible connectivity enabled.If you turn off most of that crap and disable wifi, you will get at least a few days out of average android smartphone if not talking for hours a day.And I have about 5-6 days out of Xiaomi Mi4C, and had about 4-5 days out of HTC one X

author: John Heath
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2016, 05:02:44 am
content: Quote from: iamdarkyoshi on October 30, 2016, 04:02:35 pmType C USB. I googled . It can deliver 5 amps. I found a wall power chart when charging a note 7.http://images.anandtech.com/doci/10559/Galaxy_Note7_Charge_Time.png?_ga=1.207960858.945519275.1477888897Note how aggressive the first 20 minutes of charge is at 16 watts. That is well into a 4 amp at 3.5 volts.

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2016, 03:32:45 am
content: A major ISP in Toronto put this on their web site

author: iamdarkyoshi
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2016, 04:09:15 am
content: Quote from: Bud on November 01, 2016, 03:32:45 amI wonder how many people are just going to risk it...

author: frenky
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 01, 2016, 09:20:41 am
content: Intresting read:https://www.buzzfeed.com/josephbernstein/samsung-whats-behind-galaxy-note7-explosions?utm_term=.fo77J8R5n#.wlBa6AMW4What Samsung’s failure analysis team would be looking for, Stevick said, are dendrites: microscopic lithium fibers that can grow — vine-like — over time from the anode (negative pole) of the battery, across a thin separator, to the cathode (positive pole). When the two poles connect, watch out: You’ve got a short circuit and a potential fire.The two main culprits behind out-of-control dendrite growth, charging too deeply and charging too fast, happen to be correlated with features consumers want: namely, better battery life and faster phone recharging. But it’s not as simple as blaming one or the other. Perhaps both are a problem. Perhaps the electrolyte separator — which keeps the anode and cathode apart – is too thin and therefore too easy for the lithium tendrils to bridge. Or perhaps the design of the battery case squished the battery too much, again making it easier for the two poles to connect.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2016, 10:03:53 am
content: Quoteineffective consumer protection laws in China.Think about Samsung trying to pull that off in the US or Europe.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 01, 2016, 10:59:45 am
content: Quote from: dannyf on November 01, 2016, 10:03:53 amI wouldn't be surprised if user actually tried to scam Samsung. Don't know in this particular area but scamming people (in court, broken vase scam) to pay for fake injuries is quiet popular in China.

author: Alexei.Polkhanov
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 02, 2016, 03:03:21 am
content: If we get back to strictly engineering side of things. Suppose I am am worried that my own system (not necessary a smart phone) will have similar issue that may include complete power failure what do I do?I figure what I would need is to have some kind of Black Box for my board alike ones used for planes and cars where I can record last 30 seconds of events (charging current, temperature sensor, gyro ...). I am thinking of a component that I can log status messages to like a RAM but when power is disconnected it would persist itself into internal flush that can be later analyzed. I am sure I am not the first one who would need something like this.Does it exist? Who makes it?

author: janekm
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 02, 2016, 03:45:58 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on November 02, 2016, 03:21:44 amFlash is not quite convenient for this use case as it needs to be erased before being over-written and that takes quite considerable amounts of power and also time.This is pretty much the perfect use case for F-RAM.

author: Alexei.Polkhanov
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 03, 2016, 09:29:51 pm
content: Actually FRAM may be a winner here. I found one in my parts box. I am curious will it survive 200C? 150C? 120C?

author: chris_leyson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 03, 2016, 10:02:19 pm
content: I used to work for a company that made small radio transponders for gas and water meters, they used a single AA sized PCB mounted Lithium battery. The transponder would only draw a few uA on average over several months until it was "interogated" by a nearby transmitter and then it would draw something like 100mA for a less than a second to transmit the meter readings back. I was told that this short high current pulse would clear any dendrites that had started to grow and thus you could get several years battery life, allegedly. I say allegedly because I don't know how many water meters actually had these things fitted before the company folded and if any of them are still in service. Natural dendrite growth also occurs in NiCd batteries as well so maybe the whole dendrite clearing thing applied to NiCd batteries and not the Lithium batteries, but they used Lithium and not NiCd because of the higher energy density.Probably also worth mentioning, one of the development engineers powered up a transponder from a bench supply a 3V and forgot to remove a jumper link on the board, the battery went bang and embedded schrapnel in a plastered brick wall, the schrapnel is probably still there to this day and the development engineer probably still suffers from a loss of hearing in one ear. Edit, they replaced the battery with a vented rather than sealed package after that little episode.

author: fubar.gr
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 06, 2016, 10:01:01 am
content: These guys apparently found the reason Note 7 smartphones exploded. Or maybe not?https://www.instrumental.ai/blog/2016/12/1/aggressive-design-caused-samsung-galaxy-note-7-battery-explosionsQuoteDoes this claim hold water?

author: AndyC_772
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2016, 10:14:39 am
content: It sounds way too simplistic and obvious to me. There's no way on earth that the entire Samsung R&D dept failed to spot something like that.A little knowledge is a dangerous thing, and even if the ultimate answeristhat there wasn't any expansion room, there will have been very good, well understood reasons why it shouldn't have been necessary.

author: nfmax
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2016, 11:14:13 am
content: Quote from: AndyC_772 on December 06, 2016, 10:14:39 amHowever, all large organisations develop finely-honed techniques and procedures to enable them to forget inconvenient technical information.

author: timb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2016, 11:56:26 am
content: Quote from: AndyC_772 on December 06, 2016, 10:14:39 amPerhaps they *did* spot it, and it's the reason the phones were recalled? Switching to a thinner battery would have significantly lowered phone runtime, so that wasn't an option (if they wanted to stay competitive with the iPhone 7). So, they decided to scrap the design all together. It might have even been cheaper to just recall all the phones and give out refunds, compared to a recall where they replaced the battery with a smaller one.

author: AndyC_772
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2016, 12:03:04 pm
content: I just can't see lack of expansion room being a thing that's "spotted" at all. It'ssoobvious that it canonlyhave been a deliberate design decision.Whether or not that was a decision made by the battery experts, or the aesthetic design dept who have "THINNER!" printed out and framed on their walls, is anyone's guess.

author: Ice-Tea
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2016, 12:08:10 pm
content: If this is so obvious, I'd be very interested if anyone would do a quick check on other devices. By this logic, you should find a 0.5mm gap in all of them.

author: timb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2016, 12:51:47 pm
content: Quote from: Ice-Tea on December 06, 2016, 12:08:10 pmWell, the gap needs to be 10% of the battery thickness, as a general rule. So, it's only 0.5mm if the battery is 5mm thick.That's also assuming a rigid enclosure. If the enclosure has some flex to it, you can get away with less.LiPo batteries swell, it's a pretty well known fact. So, only an idiot would design a 5mm high cavity for a 5mm thick battery.(That said, for all we know, the particular Note7 battery that was in this teardown could have already expanded. Maybe the battery was actually 4.9mm thick and it's expanded already? That could be the actual problem: They *did* leave enough of an expansion cavity, however something is causing the batteries to expand more than normal (like rapid charging) which causes a cascade failure and fire.)

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2016, 03:54:22 pm
content: Quote from: timb on December 06, 2016, 11:56:26 amThey could have made a new back cover that's 1mm deeper, something most users won't notice.

author: Ice-Tea
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2016, 04:12:44 pm
content: Quote from: NiHaoMike on December 06, 2016, 03:54:22 pmEh, no, thickness accounts for about 17.85% of total bragging rights.

author: Neilm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2016, 08:15:08 pm
content: There is also the possibilty that there was a change to the plastics after the battery was developed and no-one checked. After all, you have only lost 0.5mm - what harm can that do.

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2016, 08:57:56 pm
content: I've seen disassembly of li-ion car pack where metal rods across the packs are used to compress them.Similar to this photo:http://images.hgmsites.net/hug/toyota-camry-hybrid-battery-pack-repair-by-imgur-user-scoodidabop_100502034_h.jpgAlthough I suppose there may be expansion space between the cells already, and the cell phone battery is pre-compressed.There are tons of reports/photos of bulging cells in devices, you'd think the phone would just pop open like this instead of burning:http://www.sammobile.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/s6-swollen-battery-2.jpg

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 23, 2017, 09:29:54 am
content: Well it looks like the result of the Samsung investigation is faulty batteries... from two different manufacturers!It looks like they are shouldering the blame though.http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-38714461