Energy buying vs selling price - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 03, 2022, 11:47:15 am
content: So I just got my annual bill for electricity. The weather was very sunny this year. My solar panel made regularly 25-30% more energy than it was calculated, or compared to last year. Overall, I made twice the energy this year than I used. So what did the energy company do? Changed the redelivery during the year cutting it to about 20% of the original, and used the new rate to calculate this. I got payed 0.09 EUR for a kwh of energy. If you use more than you make, the rate is between 0.7 EUR to 0.95 EUR. Thanks Eneco. They also cancelled my fixed rate contract before the due date, put me on variable rate. So the fixed rate only applies when it benefits them.How is this legal? Because the Dutch government is an idiot, who doesn't know how to help the customers. They realized what was happening, so made a legislation that the buy-back price needs to be (as I remember) at least 60% of the sale price. The law is only in effect from 2025. Anyone knows about a collective lawsuit for this?Just to be clear, I sized my solar installation for my usage, didn't intend to grossly oversize it. It's been a sunny year.So I've been looking around for energy companies. The websites that were calculating these energy costs, giving you the best company, they just don't work anymore. Companies have been changing the rules and prices too often.Found one that pays the same for solar redelivery as it costs you to buy. All seemed fine, I input my usage to their calculator. Rate is better than my current one. It calculates the price for me. And it adds more than a thousand EUR additional saldo cost at the end. It doesn't matter how much you deliver for them, you end up paying 5 EUR per month to them, so they buy solar from you for free.Next one. Calculates saldo per month. Is this illegal? Yes.Next one. Pays 0 EUR for redelivery.Companies are charging between 0.7-1.2 EUR fixed price for kWh, while the spot price on the market re now., well at least this week.. 8-10 cents. Delivery costs are fixed 6 cents for costumers.https://aleasoft.com/energy-markets/epex-spot-netherlands-prices-demand/How is this legal again, nobody knows.The Dutch goverment meanwhile is scrambling to decrease the prices. We are expected to get back 190 EUR this December and there is a price cap from next year. And get this: They are expected to pay billions to the energy companies because of this. I'm like 90% sure at this point our gov. is run by the energy maffia. We all know, how the electricity price is constructed on the EU market. Nuclear power plants are regularly bidding 1-2 cents for the energy generation, which is then sold to us at 100x the price by the time everyone else got payed. I know there are no nuclear plants here. But guess what, with the connected grid, and connected pricing, it doesn't matter where the electricity is made. There is no energy crisis in Europe. This is a legislation crisis.

author: jonpaul
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 03, 2022, 12:10:21 pm
content: All countries in EU, also UK, US are doing this.In California rates to buy are up to 40..70c/ kWh and to sell back perhaps 5..10 cA new fixed charge for " infrastructure" is levied monthly on solar power connections.Just go off grid!Jon

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 03, 2022, 12:27:58 pm
content: Quote from: jonpaul on November 03, 2022, 12:10:21 pmThey don't have it in law that they have to do net metering.Right now I'm looking at a supplier, that charges based on the spot market prices, and adds a small fee to it.With this, I'm guessing even charging a battery from a grid during the day and discharging it in peak times would be worth it.Maybe I'll install a battery way before I was planning.

author: Black Phoenix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 04, 2022, 11:47:10 am
content: I see a lot of people who have Solar only now pondering the instalation of batteries since the gold years of selling energy are no more. If I would install now a solar system I would spent the extra money to dimension a battery system for my usage in a way of using all my energy produced per day and limit at minimum what I have to buy.

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 04, 2022, 12:08:15 pm
content: Yep a home battery is the best option.The only question is when do you jump in and buy one given the rapid pace of battery tech.It obviously going to get cheaper as battery production ramps up by orders of magnitude to meet EV demand.But that will take a while to tickle down. Also safety is going to get better over time. You don't want to jump in too early and get a cheap battery system that burns your house down.The power companies of course know that solar + home batteries is going to be a huge problem for them.Personally, i would be more worried about them trying to change the law so even if you don't have any grid connection you still have to pay an infrastructure charge. I mean someone is going to have to pay to keep the grid working and they cant keep increasing costs to their remaining customers as that will drive more and more of them to go solar+battery.

author: Black Phoenix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 04, 2022, 12:59:39 pm
content: Quote from: Psi on November 04, 2022, 12:08:15 pmThe UK is going strong in Solar Instalations. In the US I know some regions have a ton of off the grid customers (mostly country side with space for the panels) with generator backups.India is also in a extreme expansion. In China the only projects I know are companies for sale to the grid or industry to offset costs, I don't know any individual using solar for his own needs at least in the regions I've been (Guangdong, Fujian and Guangxi).Electricity prices in China are low, but higher than 5 years ago.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 04, 2022, 04:04:14 pm
content: Batteries wouldn't help. They make a yearly balance. They started with my yearly consumption (~1500KWH), and substracted my yearly production (about 3000 KWh), and payed 9c/KWh for the difference, somehow I ended up with 90 EUR for this extra production.They turn around and sell this to "my neighbor" at 0.7-0.95 EUR/ KWh resulting 1200 EUR. Use it or lose it, I know. I'm installing an airco for heating if everything goes well, I can reduce the heating bill with that.Is my installation too big? Maybe, but it was a good year, plus I might change to an EV soonish.My main issue is with the pricing system. They (as in almost all DSO here in the NL) sell the electricity at a fixed price of 0.7-0.95 and the current market price is 8c/kwh. When the price goes above the guaranteed price they cancel your fixed contract (fixed price for a year) and send you a worse one. The whole point of fixed price is pointless.I've found a company that charges a monthly fee, and for that you get the market price, both ways (frankenergie). I'm actually quite tempted to calculate how much it would be in different situations for this past year. If they don't screw you over with some little detail in the contract, and that's a big if, then it might be even worth considering them with a battery system.

author: gf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 04, 2022, 09:08:31 pm
content: Quote from: tszaboo on November 04, 2022, 04:04:14 pmDo you mean, if you feed a surplus production of 1kWh into the grid at noon, and consume 1kWh at night, then you don't have to pay for the consumed 1kWh? If yes, then you are actually lucky -- effectively, they provide you with "virtual energy storage" for free. Not so in Germany - you only get paid a little for your surplus production at noon and have to pay the full price for the consumption at night when the production is zero.

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 05, 2022, 09:21:15 am
content: Quote from: gf on November 04, 2022, 09:08:31 pmYeah, that is getting very very rare.Power companies don't like it when you use them for virtual storage for free.

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 05, 2022, 10:04:02 am
content: I was lucky enough to have fixed 24-month contract with very affordable buying price (0.051 €/kWh), yet sell excess to grid by spot price, which finally averaged at 0.40€/kWh. In such situation, it's goodnotto have any "virtual storage" or hourly net metering or whatever, I tried to minimize my own usage but could have done better job at it. In any case, see my latest energy bill as attached. (Transport fee of 0.08 €/kWh is not included.)

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 05, 2022, 08:28:48 pm
content: Quote from: Psi on November 05, 2022, 09:21:15 amIt's called net metering. I'm aware that it's a very good deal. It's scheduled to be phased out here as well.And by the looks of it power companies can do whatever they want.Canceling contracts. Altering fixed prices. Selling electricity 100x the purchase price.My favorite one I read yesterday. One company was charging like 3x the expected usage as prepayment. Normally you get this back at the end of the year. They of course went bankrupt and the money all disappeared, which could be as much as 11 months of prepayment (with the current price x3) for some people. Imagine that. You expect to get back like 3-4000 EUR by the end of the contract, and it just disappears.