EEVblog #548 - EMC Pre-Compliance Conducted Emissions Testing - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 16, 2013, 01:25:39 am
content: Dave demonstrates how to do some basic in-house EMC Pre-Compliance conducted emissions testing using an open source hardware Line Impedance Stabilisation Network (LISN) box, and a low cost Rigol DSA815 spectrum analyserhttp://www.tekbox.net/open-hardware/tboh01-5uh-impedance-stabilisation-network-lisn

author: JackOfVA
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 16, 2013, 02:10:35 am
content: You could probably obtain greater reduction in crud below 2.5 MHz with a high u ferrite. A high percentage of clip on ferrite cores are intended for suppression in the 100 MHz and higher frequency range and are constructed from a low u material. They will help at low frequencies but not nearly as much as a ferrite material optimized for low frequency work.High u clip on cores are available, but you have to look hard to find them.

author: s_lannan
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 16, 2013, 02:43:39 am
content: Big thing to know is if it's a "prescribed appliance" at least in Australia, you're going to need a lot more than EMC testing for it to be legally sold.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 16, 2013, 07:46:52 am
content: I will guess the spike at 21MHz is a local ham at work. As well i was reading of some GE light fixtures in the USA that had a spurious emission at 700MHz which was enough to interfere with a cell site at an adjacent location. Not often you find something causing problems to a cell site most limes it is the other way round.

author: DL8RI
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 16, 2013, 11:06:40 pm
content: May be, but I doubt it. The carrier seemed to be there for a longer Time. And a Ham-OP sending a carrier for 20 Minutes or more?!

author: Alana
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 16, 2013, 11:38:22 pm
content: Any chance for a video that shows how you deal with EMC inside your device?

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 17, 2013, 04:37:59 am
content: Quote from: DL8RI on November 16, 2013, 11:06:40 pmYou never heard of rag chewers? Some can talk for an hour or more between the 2 of them no problem.

author: DL8RI
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 17, 2013, 09:38:51 am
content: Yea, but then it would be SSB-Modulated and especially with the peak-detector you would see quite different heights of the peak in every sweep between zero and "full speed". Only possibility would be PSK or something similar.I don't want to rant around if it may be a Ham or not, but with this steady signal (especially with this Frequency) I'd rather look for a source in the Lab. The easiest way to find put is an old-fashioned EMC-Way -> Demodulate (A0, A3, F...) and hear what's going onBecause of this every EMC-Reciver has quite a few demodulators and Loudspeakers build in, even the old types like the Schwarzbeck VUME. That has some advantages, one BIG one... say "hello" to my Lab-Radio:

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 17, 2013, 10:23:58 am
content: I got an older one that I need to first strip and check before powering it on. Darn heavy beast it is as well.

author: jahonen
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 17, 2013, 10:33:29 am
content: A note on the quasi-peak detector usage.Usually, it is not used for the whole scan, but instead, a peak detector sweep is done. Then a list of highest peaks is compiled and quasi-peak levels are determined for each of these frequencies. IIRC if values determined with peak detector are sufficiently below quasi-peak limits, then the quasi-peak phase is skipped altogether. The effect of quasi-peak is that rarely repeating peaks are somewhat attenuated, so even if peak level might exceed the limit, it is possible that quasi-peak is below limit, depending on the duty cycle.This same process is used for radiated emissions, quasi-peak measurement is only done for highest peaks, which must be then below limits. Otherwise, the whole measurement would take far too long. Even with peak scans, the final radiated emission measurement takes several hours, as various antenna heights and polarizations are being looped through. Conducted emission measurement is usually much faster since there is no antenna to scan with, only all conductors are measured separately.Regards,Janne

author: DL8RI
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 17, 2013, 11:12:31 am
content: Quote from: SeanB on November 17, 2013, 10:23:58 amWich one?ESH2? ESV?Or one from another Company?QuoteJust a note to that note. You are completely right, the at least 1s settling time for QP is the caus for tremendous sweep-times.Therefore modern EMI-Receivers like the ESR from Rohde&Schwarz or the TDEMI from Gauss Instruments have a Time-Domain-Sampling. With them you can measure Pk, Qp & Av at the same Time and one "shot" in less than 2 minutes from 150k-30M.R&S have made a rather cool (commercial) Video that shows the Time-Domian-Cpapabilities of this unit:http://www.rohde-schwarz.de/de/Produkte/messtechnik-testsysteme/emv-und-feldstaerkemesstechnik/ESR.htmlI had the chance to "play" with it a little bit, It is a really nice (and ultra-fast) Unit

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 17, 2013, 11:15:26 am
content: R&S with a lot of numbers which I cannot remember as it is at work in a shelf. Either I fix it or it is scrap metal.

author: DL8RI
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 17, 2013, 11:22:01 am
content: Maybe I can help you out with some stuffI have the Manuals and Service-Manuals for my Test-Receivers (ESH2, ESV, ESHS30, ESVP) and for a few more (ESI(B), ESCI, ESH3, ESVS and some really old ones).Would be a pity to scrap such a Unit

author: Neilm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 17, 2013, 01:13:57 pm
content: One point to note as I watched the video, the CE mark means that you meet all the applicable directives, not only the EMC directive but also the Low Voltage Directive which covers safety. (There are many other directives but I only remember those two.)

author: ali80
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 17, 2013, 05:04:39 pm
content: I think you should place both wires through one ferrite bead at the same time, this way you could reduce the common mode noise, the way dave used the ferrite beads is the same as adding some inductor in series with the supply and doesnt help with common mode noise that much

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 17, 2013, 05:07:43 pm
content: The common mode noise is going to have much more of an effect on the radiated EMI than conducted.

author: Rufus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 17, 2013, 05:33:01 pm
content: Quote from: c4757p on November 17, 2013, 05:07:43 pmAs said in the mail bag thread it is arsed up anyway. You can't properly measure anything on a power supply pair with a single channel LISN. If you stuck a capacitor across the UUT side of that LISN you would short out most of what you are measuring while such a capacitor would have no effect at all on common mode signals.That LISN is crap being manufactured and documented to support the way Dave used it.And radiated/conducted - different ways of measuring the same thing. At low frequencies it is hard to reliably measure radiation because the antenna is a small fraction of the wavelength. At low frequencies connecting cables are usually the only thing long enough to radiate efficiently so they measure the current in the cables instead (often with a clamp on transformer). The cables need to feed some defined impedance that is what the LISN is for and you need one for each wire.An alternative is to have a long box full of split ferrite rings clamped over the cable which acts like a dummy load on the whole cable. The first ring in the box is a transformer to measure the current (or inject it for susceptibility testing). You are only interested in the net current in the whole cable because that indicates what is being radiated. Voltage into the defined impedance of a LISN is proportional to current but when you have a bunch of wires and LISNs you have to sum all of them to get net current.

author: SArepairman
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 17, 2013, 06:40:53 pm
content: Quote from: JackOfVA on November 16, 2013, 02:10:35 amwhat are the highest U ferrites obtainable?

author: JackOfVA
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 17, 2013, 06:58:27 pm
content: The highest permeability ferrite cores I use are ur = 10000. Those are Laird Magnetics type 40 material, but since DigiKey increased the minimum order to 8000 pieces I'll have to find a substitute when my existing stock is exhausted. EPCOS has some possible substitutes and are available from DigiKey in smaller quantities, but I have not yet found a totally acceptable replacement for the Laird 40 material, or Laird's ur = 5000 material (mix 35).Cores manufactured by Fair-Rite are the easiest to purchase in small to medium lots, and I recommend spending some time with their catalog, and in particular their notes on selecting a ferrite material for EMI suppression.http://www.fair-rite.com/newfair/pdf/CUP%20Paper.pdfMouser stocks quite a few Fair-Rite products as well as other suppliers.I should add that things become more challenging if the cable undergoing suppression carries high current DC and the chokes are applied in differential mode, not common mode. In that case you also need to ensure the ferrite core is not saturated by the DC field and hence has a much lower effective permeability than suggested by ur measured with zero DC bias. In common mode, of course, the DC fields cancel so the choke core only has to deal with the AC component, i.e., the unwanted noise.

author: koitk
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: November 17, 2013, 08:02:40 pm
content: Seems really similar to the Bias-T that Shahriar talked about in one of his video.

author: michi42
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: November 18, 2013, 04:32:17 pm
content: The CE is beeing pronounced like the CE in "China Export".It is often not a certificate issued by a certification lab- it just says that the manufacturer guarantees the product to meet the regulation standards.This can even be done in self-certification.You might want to seehttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CE_markingWatch out for the spacing between the C and the E. Sometimes this does not look like it should.

author: hammy
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 20, 2013, 03:09:25 pm
content: To get rid of this "UserKey Set: Sytem," message at the bottom of the screen:System -> Display -> UserKey -> offTo blind out the measurement info on the left side of the screen:push the esc button next to the number padBetter for nice screenshots in some documentation.

author: DL8RI
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 23, 2013, 10:35:19 pm
content: Hi,Quote from: koitk on November 17, 2013, 08:02:40 pmwell... yea, but noA Bias-Tee is something similar in the sense of connectors (One Power, One RF, One RF+Power) but then it stops.I have a Delta LISN for Line-Voltages lying around, maybe I open it up tomorrow and take some pictures.

author: PeterL
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 28, 2013, 07:42:26 pm
content: Hi,This video doesn't seem to have a lot of fans, but I liked it. The ability to do these measurements in your own lab is worth a lot imho. So I hope we'll see more in this genre.I'm also curious about what this signal would look like on a scope, both in a time domain as well as in FFT mode.But I would really like to see how this setup (or any other affordable setup) compares to a 'real' test. I understand this might be hard to realize and/or unaffordable, but at least I asked..QuoteIf you can still do this, I would be interested...Peter

author: fpliuzzi
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 01, 2013, 01:36:18 am
content: Quote from: DL8RI on November 23, 2013, 10:35:19 pmIf you do get the time; seeing photos of the inside of your Delta LISN would be very interesting.Regards

author: mfeinstein
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 01, 2013, 03:28:04 am
content: Dave I always wondered how all this new DIY projects can hit the american market without a FCC EMC compliance test...how do they dont get fined or sued?

author: DL8RI
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 01, 2013, 12:49:17 pm
content: Hi,here are some pictures of my LISN:Schwarzbeck is a very well-known Company in the EMI/Antenna-Business.The two big Ls for decoupling the Mains-Line from the EUT are the most dominating Part in this thing. There's another Filter in this shielded part, but it's quite hard to open it, so there's just a "peek-shot".AFAIK this Unit is not compatible with the standards anymore, but it's nice for me to be able to measure Common- and Differential-Mode noise, since I'm not doing any compliance-stuff in my free-time. I use it to measure and minimize noise on the Line:In this example I modified a switching-PSU for minimal EMI because it is used in HAM-Radio environment. It was compatible with the standards (commercial PSU), but we wanted moreAnd, yes, i know this setup has nothing to do with any standard in EMC, it was just for orientation.The Receiver used is a full compliance Receiver from Rohde & Schwarz, the ESHS 30. A bit older (and slow) but still quite good. And of course the must-have 10dB-Attenuator at the Input

author: fpliuzzi
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2013, 12:19:11 am
content: Thanks for the photos Martin. In the near future I plan to construct a simple LISN for my personal use. I found a few different circuits, but I'll probably make something similar to the circuit that I have included below. A couple of the designs that I found use a pair of 50uH coils and a pair of 250uH coils. Your photo of the concentric coils in your unit will be helpful there.The article I have shows how to make the high current 50uH coils. I just need to purchase the proper y2 type capacitors to help keep the whole thing safe.I'll have to add some switching so I too can measure Common- and Differential-Mode noise with the simple LISN circuit below. Thanks for mentioning this handy feature on your LISNRegards,Frank

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 02, 2013, 03:22:13 am
content: Quote from: mfeinstein on December 01, 2013, 03:28:04 amBecause "everyone does it" is the basic answer, and it's also effectively a self compliance issue. It is not a big deal, and the authority does not know unless someone goes and complains.And also, kits have been exempt for a long time, although that has varied from country to country.

author: mfeinstein
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2013, 05:08:45 am
content: How much in average does this tests costs and how much time does it takes to get a certification? Just figuring the real impact for regular people like me with DIY projects...

author: mfeinstein
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2013, 05:56:12 am
content: Dave,Sorry this is not related but I dont see why open a new thread for something as silly as this, but out of curiosity, what happened with your Gossen Metrawatt? I remember you loved it and used it all the time in the early videos but now I just see your Fluke...any disappointments?

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 02, 2013, 06:31:29 am
content: Quote from: mfeinstein on December 02, 2013, 05:56:12 amYes, the Gossen Energy calibration got wiped in a firmware upgrade that they sent me and advised, and they didn't seem to care too much. Wasn't impressed.But really, I've got 2 Fluke's and an Agilent on the bench already which is more than enough, so it's just a matter of what's to hand that gets used in the videos. It's not like I'm deliberately avoiding Gossen because of the incident.

author: DL8RI
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2013, 09:25:17 am
content: Hi,Quote from: fpliuzzi on December 02, 2013, 12:19:11 ammaybe this Link is helpful:http://schwarzbeck.de/Datenblatt/m8127.pdfThe tricky part is to tweak the thing into the values the Standards demand.

author: resistor
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 04, 2013, 08:19:32 am
content: Hi Dave,I just wanted to throw out that I really enjoyed this video, as well as all of your DFM videos. While it's not as glitzy as some of the others, this is the kind of information that's incredibly valuable to hobbyists like me who aspire to do things the right way, rather than just sticking an Arduino in it and calling it done. I think it's really important to get this kind of information out that so people can learn how to take the next step from wiring up an MCU prototype to building something real and marketable.Thanks!

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 04, 2013, 08:54:14 am
content: Quote from: resistor on December 04, 2013, 08:19:32 amThanks, I like to think they are valuable too. Valuable and mainstream popular don't always go together, and that's to be expected.

author: DL8RI
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 04, 2013, 04:43:50 pm
content: That's not suprising as EMC in general is a very complex field and needs quite a bit pf work to get "into" it.

author: mfeinstein
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 04, 2013, 09:36:00 pm
content: Dave I think many people will be interested in a series of videos about EMC Compliance, how to run pre-compliance tests, low cost equipment and etc... there isn't many information out there for hobbist and most universities also don't cover the subject. Thanks in advance

author: Spikee
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 04, 2013, 10:04:04 pm
content: Quote from: mfeinstein on December 04, 2013, 09:36:00 pm+1

author: resistor
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 05, 2013, 04:48:47 am
content: Quote from: Spikee on December 04, 2013, 10:04:04 pm+2. I think Design for Conformance (DFC?) could make a good set of videos. Maybe a couple on design tips, and a couple of self-testing.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 05, 2013, 05:47:31 am
content: Quote from: mfeinstein on December 04, 2013, 09:36:00 pmDidn't I just do one on that?

author: mfeinstein
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 05, 2013, 03:36:22 pm
content: Yes you did two as far as I can remember...one on conducted emissions (the latest one, in which you point out there is a lot more in the subject), and one showing a huge place in Australia that does the testings, with a room big enough to fit a truck! Still, there is a lot to cover...radiated and pick-up emissions, shielding (which can be very very tricky depending on the frequency range), ESD and so on...the "EMC Series" (feel free to change the name) could have it's own playlist...just my 2 cents

author: Eclipze
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2013, 11:21:22 am
content: I would also like to see more on the EMC topic. I recently did a 1 day course on EMC techniques. While some of the material was quite useful, there was absolutely no content with respect to testing/identification and measurement. Quite interested in seeing more on pre-compliance testing, equipment and tricks :-)

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2013, 06:18:40 am
content: Quote from: DL8RI on November 17, 2013, 11:12:31 am

author: DL8RI
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2013, 10:06:40 am
content: Hi,the SMDU (with the Z1/Z2) is not a Test-Receiver for EMC, but a old (and technically superb) RF-Test-Set.Here are the manuals down-loadable from a HAM's homepage:http://www.ko4bb.com/manuals/index.php?dir=Rohde_Schwarz/Rohde_Schwarz_SMDU_SignalGeneratorThe generator inside the SMDU is a quite unique disciplined but free-running Oszillator inside this drum-shaped scale. Mechanically highly complex.This thing may be old and heavy but (for example) in terms of side-band-niose it's still very good, especially compared to this Synthi/DDS-Stuff.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2013, 01:32:23 pm
content: Thanks, there goes my December and January then.

author: HighVoltage
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 04, 2014, 10:10:10 pm
content: I really liked this video and learned some basics.Thanks for making this and show us some EMI testin.