so I had a fire sunday morning... - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: W2NAP
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 01, 2019, 11:58:45 pm
content: So Sunday 27 Jan 2019 I had a fire at the house, started in the electronics work room.Fire investigator says electrical fire, my guess my old weller went nuclear since nothing of it remains, but can't 100% confirm that was the cause.This has ended up being a giant mess, everything in the house appears to be a total loss between the flame and the heavy smoke damage the place took.I wasn't home when it started.

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2019, 12:00:13 am
content: Damn!Wake up call for the rest of us to make a master cutoff switch for lab power.With a large neon/led so you know when it's on.That's what i have, ya always know the lab is powered on and so remember to turn it off before going out. Also it's handy having 1 switch to power up the lab.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 02, 2019, 12:13:42 am
content: I already have 3 such switches...- One for all the computer gear- One for my photographic lighting (For convenience, really. One switch for multiple lights.)- One for my test gearThe test gear one is very rarely on when I'm not around.When I retire at night, they are all off.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 02, 2019, 12:21:59 am
content: Damn, that's terrible.Did you have contents insurance?What gear was typically left on all the time?

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 02, 2019, 12:23:50 am
content: Quote from: Psi on February 02, 2019, 12:00:13 amA typical large lab would have dozens of things turned on and in standby mode etc, I'm always surprised at the lack of electrical fires given the statistics of how much stuff is left on/standby in a typical house.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 02, 2019, 12:25:32 am
content: Did you have hot air station, model?

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2019, 01:36:02 am
content: The fact that I still see recognisable equipment suggests it wasn't that bad after all... but you will have to clean the soot out of everything.A soldering iron will still have metal parts that may survive; you can find where the fire started by examining the area of most damage.

author: TerraHertz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2019, 01:49:03 am
content: Well that sucks. Hope you had insurance.You might be able to determine something about the sequence, from the damage to the wall. Presumably that plaster was removed from the wood lathes, by water-hosing? Since the timber is not charred. Also it didn't catch fire, luckily.Are those portable benches the ones with molded plastic tops? Looks like a lesson there - don't use benches that melt and burn easily.You have chairs identical to ours.

author: BillB
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 02, 2019, 01:53:43 am
content: W2NAP, sorry to hear. Glad nobody was hurt.Quote from: EEVblog on February 02, 2019, 12:23:50 amI often obsess about all the crap I've got plugged-in and/or running and also marvel that there aren't more fires, especially given the proliferation of low-quality gadgets.

author: timelessbeing
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2019, 01:57:43 am
content: So much of what we buy has fire retardants in it. I remember reading somewhere recently that the retardants are starting to show up in our bodies.

author: W2NAP
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 02, 2019, 02:26:56 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on February 02, 2019, 12:21:59 amYeah I have insurance hard to say how that is going to play out.as for leaving gear on I don't leave stuff on 24/7 its only turned on when in use or going to be in use and once day is done everything gets turned off.

author: W2NAP
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 02, 2019, 02:28:56 am
content: Quote from: amyk on February 02, 2019, 01:36:02 amthe equipment you see on the left, has much faceplate melt. I had a pc tower under the left table, face on that is melted down a bit. the fire was hot hot hot.the walls in most of the house is as black as the night, heavy soot/smoke

author: W2NAP
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 02, 2019, 02:36:26 am
content: Quote from: TerraHertz on February 02, 2019, 01:49:03 amlot of the plaster damage is from FD tearing the plaster out to make sure fire had not got on the inside of the wall. FD Investigator says fire started in the right corner. which is where the solder irons sat. (thus my thinking the weller went nuclear)and yes hard plastic top tables. and yeah 20/20 looking back not a good idea.FD said the fire got very very hot. it was hot enough to start melting the glass in the window back side to the pic, also melted door curtain to the left into the glass.FD had very good response time honestly. idk exactly when the 911 call went out to FD responding to FD arrive to FD putting water on it, but from what I was told it was a good response time.above where it started was my shelf that i used to keep parts bins, solder rolls, flux, 99% iso, ect. I guess if the iso bottle melted and began leaking the iso that could have made the fire very hot real quick since it was a full big bottle i just got some weeks ago.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2019, 04:32:31 am
content: There is a good argument for plugging one's soldering iron, hot plate, etc, all heating appliances into a countdown timer switch, so it turns itself off if its not being used.

author: Red Squirrel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2019, 04:34:22 am
content: Damn that sucks! This is my worst fear, as I doubt insurance would want to cover hobby stuff like that due to it not being UL certified etc. Unless it can be proven the fire was started by a piece of equipment that is certified, and not a project/setup. Hopefully things play out and it can be covered.This reminds me I should probably have a fire suppression system in my server room. I doubt any of that stuff would be covered if something went wrong with my UPS or something. It's all done in a safe manner, but shit happens.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2019, 04:42:51 am
content: how does this kind of electrical fire propagate? What do you expect, like flames shooting out of the vent holes or something?I have trouble imagining one of the metal-chassis test equipments catching something on fire, unless its placed on wood?This is why I like the idea of rackmount shelving that is on wheels away from walls etc.Is the weller a plastic bodied instrument? you mean like the chassis caught on fire (not the iron)? Can a hakko in its aluminum body still do this? I like the hakko because you can physcially disconnect the DIN connector when your done using it.

author: W2NAP
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 02, 2019, 01:53:57 pm
content: Quote from: coppercone2 on February 02, 2019, 04:42:51 amyep the wel had a hard plastic case. my smd rework station has a metal case. the smd rework the case you can still see in the rubble but we couldn't find any part of the wel minus the iron holder (metal) and the metal shaft of the iron itself.my guess is the wel shorted somehow (1. ac mains short or 2. on/off heat control failed and iron came on and came on full throttle) and once the plastic housing got hot enough began to melt then flame. granted I don't know for 100% so it could have been something else but that is my guess

author: cvanc
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2019, 02:01:03 pm
content: I am very sorry to hear this. Best wishes for your recovery.

author: shakalnokturn
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2019, 02:41:28 pm
content: Ouch!Despite the damage it looks like you got away with this quite well, the plaster held up long enough for the wood behind to not catch fire, FD must have been fast indeed.The plastic tables I'd definitely avoid but have been working on a pinewood top for years, not really better... I do all my Li-Ion charging in a sandbox due to fire paranoia.When buying cheap far east equipment including wall-warts, when possible "don't turn it on take it apart" and evaluate/correct the safety hazards before use. My Atten 858 hot air station will not always cut off when the handpiece is on the stand and it has been like that from new.I hope your insurance covers as much as you can possibly squeeze out of them.

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2019, 02:46:50 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on February 02, 2019, 12:25:32 amHot air stations left on at night scare me, especially ones that start up from silent when you lift the handle.Luckily most keep the fan/heater running at low power so you do actually hear them running.

author: TerraHertz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2019, 02:54:07 pm
content: Quote from: W2NAP on February 02, 2019, 02:36:26 amOh god... Maybe don't mention that to the insurers? They don't like the word 'accelerant.' (Neither does the spellcheck.)99% of my solvents are kept in a separate space from my work areas. Somewhere there is no power, and definitely nowhere near the welding, grinding and soldering equipment. In the work area I only keep very small quantities, and refill from the bulk containers when needed.Many liters of IPA, MEK, metho, turps, kerosene, paint... That stuff going up is my major fear.

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2019, 02:58:44 pm
content: Insurers can also refuse to cover you if they think you are claiming for business related items on your home insurance policy.A lot of them dont expect a non-business to own electronic test gear.So be careful when talking to them, make sure you have your story straight about why you have this test gear for hobby purposes and make sure its something non-business related.I made a point of calling them up and recording the convo when i got my policy so i could get them on record saying my test gear for hobby purposes was covered. Hopefully will never need to use it but always good to have

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2019, 03:57:06 pm
content: yes, I keep all my solvents in the seperate garage from the house, and all the aresol cans sans cleaners. Everything including the butane lighter refill.In my lab I keep the bear minimum of alcohol in a metal container. I also don't keep any plastic boxes plugged in (the rework station is metal but I keep it unplugged and on a shelf when not in use).The only thing plastic here is the monitor body and the clock.If I had the money everything would be in rack-mount boxes that roll into place into a table cutout.I feel like terahertz about it.

author: W2NAP
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 02, 2019, 04:26:12 pm
content: Quote from: shakalnokturn on February 02, 2019, 02:41:28 pmI think 99% of the plaster damage is from the FD knocking the plaster down to make sure fire hadn't got into the walls.Insurance is 50/50 i think, they will cover it or not. I have no idea. I rented the place so i just have rent insurance. time will tell

author: W2NAP
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 02, 2019, 04:28:05 pm
content: Quote from: Psi on February 02, 2019, 02:58:44 pmwell I have rent insurance (i rented the place) as for what my insurance has told me they are just going to send a form where i have to list everything and the value. the house owner insurance investigator was out yesterday and I was with him, he knew before walking in the place i was a ham op.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2019, 05:55:23 pm
content: at least plaster is easy to do unlike structural framing. You need like 50$ of tools to do a good job.Get a bucket of compound, one of those wide 1 foot by 1 foot or bigger square metal trowels for holding compound, a wide compound trowel, paper tape and some sheetrock screws.And you can upgrade to rockwool insulation while your at it to decrease heating and increase noise dampening. And its more fireproof. No reason not to have it between rooms actually if you get the acoustic grade. Two or three hours to watch all the youtube videos tutorials about it is all the training you need. Just remember many layers and paper tape to make it nice and easy without the skill. And lift it like 1/2 inch off the floor so its not noisy when the floor boards hit the sheetrock so you can put molding there with some caulk to act as a damper.

author: Nusa
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2019, 06:28:37 pm
content: He's a renter. How the house gets fixed is probably not up to him, unless he has the required licenses and the owner hires him for the job.He may even find someplace else to live, since living there is clearly not an option for a while, and he probably has fewer possessions to move than he has had in a long time.Sadness all around.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2019, 07:05:01 pm
content: oh shit renting. I would never fix a property I did not own.thats when you patch dart holes in the wall with tooth paste prior to moving out because the land lord is a dickhead

author: aix
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2019, 10:41:28 pm
content: I'm glad you're OK.It obviously wouldn't help in a situation like yours, but this does make me think about what type of fire extinguisher I should be keeping in my electronics lab (I currently don't have any).Anyone got any advice?

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2019, 11:01:59 pm
content: Quote from: timelessbeing on February 02, 2019, 01:57:43 amApparently there is growing evidence of flame retardants in carpet and upholstery causing thyroid cancer. We've had three cats develop thyroid tumors requiring I-131 treatment. I'm told it's increasingly common in cats since they groom themselves with their tongue and spend a lot of time laying around on carpet and sofas.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 03, 2019, 12:06:39 am
content: Quote from: W2NAP on February 02, 2019, 01:53:57 pmI really don't want to ask this - but the question is begging......Did your Weller have a mains side fuse?

author: helius
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2019, 12:07:39 am
content: Quote from: aix on February 02, 2019, 10:41:28 pmSince Halon-1211 ceased manufacture (it is still being recycled for aerospace) you can use Halotron I, which will be available for at least another year.The alternative clean agents like FM-200 and Novec 1230 are made for specialized markets with higher prices.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2019, 12:21:22 am
content: ehhhhhhhhhh i dunno, if you have red hot semiconductors and hit them with freon you can make some nasty gases. they might be able to absorb into shit in your house and re-radiate.CO2 ?

author: TerraHertz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2019, 12:35:00 am
content: CO2 or air-pressurized water (after you cut the power.) We had this discussion before, but I don't have the link handy.

author: Ian.M
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2019, 12:35:22 am
content: CO2 if you are trying to salvage whatever caught on fire. A fire blanket for small flammable liquid fires. Foam or water if you've got an isolating switch and the fire is too big for an easily portable CO2 extinguisher. Keep 'wet' extinguishers on a bracket under the isolating switch, ideally next to the door. Keep other types on a bracket next to the bench.Avoid dry powder except as a last resort, as it gets everywhere and is highly corrosive so you'll have to scrap any nearby equipment that you cant tear down ASAP and wash the boards and vacuum out the chassis.

author: timelessbeing
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2019, 01:00:01 am
content: Quote from: Brumby on February 03, 2019, 12:06:39 amYeah, can you jump in your time machine and look?

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2019, 01:30:26 am
content: Quote from: Ian.M on February 03, 2019, 12:35:22 amthrow that shit into the dishwasher ASAP on lowest settings

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2019, 01:32:17 am
content: Quote from: timelessbeing on February 03, 2019, 01:00:01 amThere's likely enough remaining that you could tell with careful investigation, or if you know the model number find another one just like it and check.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 03, 2019, 01:52:40 am
content: Quote from: james_s on February 03, 2019, 01:32:17 am@james_s - Thank you for exercising some common sense.

author: timelessbeing
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2019, 03:13:10 am
content: Quote from: W2NAP on February 02, 2019, 01:53:57 pm

author: W2NAP
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 03, 2019, 03:20:52 am
content: Quote from: aix on February 02, 2019, 10:41:28 pmI had the normal powder fire ext. in the house.... but you have to be in the house at the time fire happens to use them....

author: W2NAP
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 03, 2019, 03:24:32 am
content: Quote from: Brumby on February 03, 2019, 01:52:40 amI have had the thing for years. hell I don't even remember exactly where i bought the thing at. just remember it was a weller. as for finding remains of it.... I don't know.

author: MrMobodies
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2019, 03:49:20 am
content: Did you have any extension sockets especially surge protected ones in there?I read some articles some years ago that some of them were found to spark and catch fire.https://hackaday.com/2017/10/27/this-power-strip-is-a-fire-starter/https://www.click2houston.com/consumer/surge-protector-sparks-fires-instead-of-preventing-them-homeowners-say

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2019, 04:52:17 am
content: I've seen MOV based surge protectors burn up more than once. The MOVs failed such that they weren't shorted enough to blow the fuse, but they were drawing enough that they got hot and set the plastic on fire.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2019, 11:14:48 am
content: mm this has me feeling a bit paranoid about my surge protectors and MOVs. I want to replace em all. I figure adding a thermal link, fresh MOV and wrapping them in kapton should retrofit them good.

author: Ian.M
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2019, 11:23:51 am
content: MOVs are *EVIL*! They have a finite life in terms of the number of transient spikes and their total energy shunted, and when they fail, typically go low resistance until they cant handle the resulting power and burn up or explode, spewing a coating of conductive particles over parts within a few inches of them. They should ideally be installed after both a conventional fuse and a thermal fuse in contact with the MOV, in a non-flammable enclosure, with a flame retardant heatshrink or glasscloth sleeve over them to limit the carnage when they fail and the fuses should be located so that load power is cut if the MOV fails, except in high reliability applications which typically have the MOV safety fuses in series with the MOV, preferably with an alarm if they blow.

author: VK3DRB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2019, 12:07:43 pm
content: Tragedy to see that electronics being burnt to death. Always use an RCD on your mains power line, and switch off power when you are not around. If you are a ham, it is highly unlikely Japanese stuff will have caught fire. Except for nuclear power plants, the Japanese are ahead of the game when it comes to safety.There is a lot of dodgy stuff on eBay from China that finds its way into the West that has no safety compliance whatsoever. Many of the manufacturers have never heard of UL 94 V-0, or IEC-60950, or IEC-62368. Nor do they care, as long as they get rich and glorious. Unfortunately, the more of this non-compliant stuff around, the higher the risk of fire or electrocution in the average home.I have a friend who got $20K worth of fire damage due to a non-approved ceiling fan in the bathroom where the plastics caught fire. Last year, I inadvertently bought a fake Samsung phone, loaded with malware, with a fake Apple charger in the sealed box that had a potentially lethal design, especially for kids with small fingers. I got a full refund, and then I reported the seller to eBay, the ACMA and the NSW Office of Fair Trading with the aim of putting the crooks out of business.

author: W2NAP
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 03, 2019, 01:47:15 pm
content: Quote from: VK3DRB on February 03, 2019, 12:07:43 pmsadly ebay or amazon isn't the only place where dodgy china stuff gets sold. you can bet any brick building store selling made in china has quite a bit dodgy stuff on the shelf.I do my best to avoid made in china anything.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2019, 05:11:15 pm
content: Quote from: W2NAP on February 03, 2019, 01:47:15 pmI tried for a while years back but found it impossible and gave up. Virtually *everything* is made in China.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2019, 09:27:55 pm
content: I am sorry to hear about what happened to you; I think anybody that has a lab at home fears for that scenario.Despite I have cutoff switches on the power strips to my gear, it is not uncommon that I leave the set on through the night while doing a long term test/evaluation. When the storm comes, though, I simply pull the main plugs of the power strips from the wall, as I have seen more than once a heavy transient spark fly over the small air gap inside a switch.

author: MrMobodies
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2019, 04:02:30 pm
content: I remember Bigclive did a teardown video of one with movs that did explode:I think when they wear out (some have leds to show that the mov is working) either bin or dissect them of their movs but I see they are in a lot of other stuff as well.

author: jmelson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2019, 11:48:11 pm
content: Quote from: aix on February 02, 2019, 10:41:28 pmThis is not the best for electronic gear, or anything that still has power on it, but I got a bunch of retired air over water extinguishers years ago on eBay. They have a couple gallon tank that you then pressurize with an air compressor. It has a gauge that shows the air charge is still there. The only time I used it, some turkey fat caught fire in our oven. I sprayed the water against the back of the oven, to create a shower of water droplets, not right on the fire. It put it out within one second!I used about 2% of the contents of the extinguisher.Anyway, these things have to be retired from commercial use after 5 years, but they are built like a tank. (Huh, well, actually, they ARE a tank, of a sort.)Jon

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 08, 2019, 03:38:19 am
content: Quote from: jmelson on February 07, 2019, 11:48:11 pmYour approach showed some understanding of the dangers of a fat fire. Spraying such a stream directly on the fire is the normal reaction - and this would have had created a bigger problem.* A general comment to anyone considering acquiring a fire extinguisher - do your homework, get the right one, thinkcarefullyabout where you put it and know how to use it.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2019, 04:06:25 am
content: ithink your actually steam-clogging the fire by breaking the fire tetrad with oxygen with what you were doing, in addition to evaporative cooling.It's a solid strategy for equipment/turkey protection, its how fire fighting ends up working in ships (you clog the compartment with steam to prevent combustion moreso then cooling it, you slowly cool it from the outside (sometimes if its possible) so its safer).obviously no good for protecting people, and keep in mind hot enough steam will ignite stuff too. You don't want too much steam if you are trying to rescue people or they will get cooked or suffocated.https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn4738-fighting-fire-with-a-steam-machine/https://www.quora.com/Has-steam-been-used-to-fight-fire-It-displaces-air-and-is-not-lost-to-the-ground

author: IanMacdonald
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2019, 05:25:28 pm
content: I've three smoke detectors in the building, but of course that won't help if there is no-one in. This has got me thinking that a spare optical smoke detector (the type that doesn't give so many false alarms!) interfaced to a contactor might be an idea. One approach would be to have it trip the bench RCD by injecting a small ground current. So if power's been left on, the appearance of smoke kills the power. Could add a small delay so that the trip can be cancelled if the smoke is not a danger sign.Maybe a kickstarter idea that could sell to a lot of hobbyists, not only in electronics?I have some MOV-containing extensions, think a job for this evening will be to rip them out. They are useless gimmicks anyway.

author: Red Squirrel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2019, 07:47:08 pm
content: I do eventually want to look at building a modular home automation system that would essentially work around the idea of contactors and dry alarm points. Could then make it do all sorts of stuff such as take specific actions if smoke detector goes off. Maybe even turn off water main if a leak is detected. Stuff like that.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2019, 07:53:02 pm
content: I don't think their useless gimicks, I think they should be standardized with some kind of integrity monitor and sold like fuses in some kind of module that can be replaced in various consumer electronics. Or just make the entire filter/fuse/MOV assembly that is standardized for consumer equipment and protect everything.They do clamp spikes after all...What you can do is trick them out with more MOV's (their cheap) in parallel so long you don't hit the leakage, or put a GDT in series with the MOV.