EV battery lease or purchase? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 25, 2021, 09:09:53 am
content: I am looking to buy a used EV and my options seem to be around a £9-11'000 Nissan leaf that has done 30'000 miles or less with the battery included in the price and a Renault Zoe for less than £6'000 that has a lease on the battery.The Nissan could be a 30KWh battery but the Zoe's are 22kWh. so yea nice to have the little more range but as this is my first I don't want to go mad and be better prepared for my second EV.So does £5-6000 for a battery 30kWh that is 4 years old sound like a deal?

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 25, 2021, 09:14:44 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on April 25, 2021, 09:11:52 amBoth! I have a new job, I will now be driving 70 miles a day rather than 13. Electricity is cheaper. Even with a battery lease if you do the miles it is cheaper. In the summer I make my own electrons!

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 25, 2021, 10:02:13 am
content: An advantage of the lease is warranty coverage and recovery, but on the downside it can make it harder to sell. You can buy out the lease now. You also need to make sure your insurance co. know about the battery lease, as if the car is written off, the battery needs to be removed and returned to Renault in FranceSomething else to consider with the Zoe is it has AC only charging, at 22, or 43kW on some models, though 43kW AC chargers are only going to decrease in numbers over time, especially now Ecotricity have annnounced they're replacing most of their old units. This is only an issue if you'll need to charge away from home.Another potential issue with the Zoe is that it makes an audible whine while charging, so if home charging in a quiet area, this could be annoying.Something else you might want to look at if you want to test the water is companies likehttps://on.to/who offer all-inclusive leases on EVs with minimal commitmentThis is a good mostly UK-focused EV forum that should answer any other questions.https://www.speakev.com/

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 25, 2021, 10:15:43 am
content: Quote from: Simon on April 25, 2021, 09:14:44 am70 miles might be pushing it in winter unless you can charge at work

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 25, 2021, 10:28:17 am
content: hm the lease at £339 a month is not so bad I guess as I'd be spending £266 on petrol alone but they offer free charging, I'd charge at home so I will still be paying for the "fuel". They go up to 1'000 miles a month then want more money. I'll be doing 1'500 or more, I suspect that won't add 50% to the lease but they sure won't be giving it away.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 25, 2021, 10:36:38 am
content: Some more options here for more conventional leaseshttps://www.gridserve.com/personal-leasing/

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 25, 2021, 10:37:22 am
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on April 25, 2021, 10:15:43 amYea I know. I'll ask but they don't park up against the building but they do go in one row parallel to it with the road between the parking and the building so maybe easier to serve if they wanted to put some in than a 2 dimensional car park.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 25, 2021, 10:47:23 am
content: https://www.gridserve.com/configurator/?variant=91246&POL=48&Mileage=20000&Maintained=false&LeadSource=1&Initial_Rental__c=9&type=pch&chargingIncluded=falseNot bad, does not include what ONTO does like maintenance and insurance so probably 6 of one and half dozen of the other. My other option is spend £11k up front plus £110 battery lease. So over 4 years that is £339/m and the car is mine forever with just £110 to pay.

author: f4eru
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2021, 05:23:22 am
content: Zoe is a bit of an oddball with this lease of the battery. It basically devaluates the car early on, makes for cheap EVs on the second hand market, but with a chain attached to your foot. I would avoid that, but this is personal taste. With all the modern cars models coming out, and massive incentives, used EVs are now really lackluster, especially in regards to often missing fast charging, and the leaf's legendary battery degradation. What incentives do you get in UK ?

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 26, 2021, 06:53:21 am
content: I think there are no incentives in the UK at the moment. This government removed everything they could that would benefit joe public. I got onto the feed in tariff for my solar panels months before it was slashed to nothing. There was a scheme but I think it has run out. I'm looking at this paying for it all myself, if there are incentives great but really I think we are hitting that tipping point where for many electric will just be a cheaper drive.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2021, 08:55:42 am
content: Quote from: f4eru on April 26, 2021, 05:23:22 am£2500 subsidy on new EVs, Zero car tax (£20-300 for ICE depending on emissions), minimal taxation where a company provides an EV company car, exemption from emissions-related charges in some cities, discounted parking in some cities, subsidy for home charge points ( though due to requirements for this it can be cheaper to not use this)

author: fcb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2021, 09:34:10 am
content: Quote from: Simon on April 25, 2021, 09:09:53 amWe got through 3x 22kW ZOE's doing an EV charger project a couple of years ago. They are great to drive - but fragile, and 22kW ZOE commute 70miles in winter will leave you with severe range anxiety, especially if any of it is 60+MPH! If you can charge at work then no-issue.#1 New Warrantied EV (Hyuandai?), #2 Used 30kW Leaf, #3 Used Zoe.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2021, 10:50:59 am
content: Quote from: Simon on April 25, 2021, 09:09:53 amThat sounds like buying a crappy Hantek DSO and wanting a real DSO experience. Why not lease a VW ID.3 ? Over here these are going like hot cakes outselling Tesla 3 to 1. Or a Skoda (budget VW)? I'm reading good reviews about those cars as well. Leasing has the advantage that you are not stuck with an EV once incentives like no road tax and other perks go away and the resale price drops significantly. Another thing to consider is that the next generation EVs with solid state batteries are about to hit the market (with Toyota probably being the first). Every EV you buy now has -what will be considered- outdated battery technology in 2 or 3 years.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2021, 11:04:47 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on April 26, 2021, 10:50:59 am"About"....? AFAIK Nobody has yet demonstrated a workable solid-state EV battery manufactured at scale so I'm not holding my breath for that one. Toyota are a sad joke right now.

author: f4eru
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2021, 11:11:21 am
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on April 26, 2021, 11:04:47 amI second that. From workable proto to scaled production (million/Y), you can count like 5 Years minimum.Today we have no workable proto nowhere, so it may well be pushed back to much longer time, and it's not guaranteed to be viable at all.

author: gmb42
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2021, 11:25:25 am
content: Quote from: Simon on April 26, 2021, 06:53:21 amIn Scotland you can get a 6 year interest free loan of up to £28K for a new EV (used to be 35K over 7 years).You can also get a 5 year zero interest loan of up to £20K for a used EV.Seehere.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2021, 11:37:40 am
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on April 26, 2021, 11:04:47 amWell... Toyota is the only (ICE) car manufacturer to meet the EU's CO2 emission limits. And they don't need EVs or buy emission rights to achieve that! Calling Toyota a sad joke is a sign of utter ignorance. Quite the opposite; Toyota is the only car manufacturer around which has their sh*t together to actually achieve CO2 and harmfull emissions (SOx, NOx) reduction.If you would have followed the news around Toyota you would have learned that Toyota is aiming to show a working EV with solid state batteries this year and ramp up production in the next couple of years. No specs on battery & range yet but the first EV model is a SUV like their RAV4.

author: richard.cs
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2021, 11:39:47 am
content: I've been driving a Zoe in the UK for a couple of years (22 kWh 2015 model). If you have any specific questions then ask away.70 mile commute sounds a little tight on a 22 kWh model in winter, but probably doable unless you drive with a heavy right foot or live in the frozen northern wastelands (Scotland). Our year-round average is about 4.2 miles per kWh, and in (south coast) winter the predicted range goes down to perhaps 78 miles on the guessometer. Right now (warm spring weather) after a recent fairly slow and gentle drive to west Devon and back it's predicting 108 miles from a full charge.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 26, 2021, 11:41:27 am
content: This is all why I will get something cheap. To put things into perspective I bought my ICE car when it was 4 years old for £8'000, at the time 2 year old Zoe's were going for £4'000. No that there is demand those cars have risen in price but are still cheap by comparison. I know this first one will be a bit of a throw away which is why I don't want to go all out and buy "the one" only to realize that I made a mistake.

author: Towger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2021, 11:53:33 am
content: There are currently reports of serious firmware upgrade issues with the VW ID.3. Modules such as headlight control being bricked. No doubt these will be ironed out over to time.Long gone are the days of checking if a bulb has blown and does it have 12v.

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2021, 05:50:42 pm
content: I'd buy the EV brand with the longest warranty.Edit: Sorry, I re-read your OP. We bought a Niro approved used at 18 months old and had the warranty reset to the full 7 years, but it looks like it's outside your target price range. It would probably still be possible to get something with a few years warranty remaining though.I was thinking Soul EV btw.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2021, 09:42:06 pm
content: While I love the Leaf, and it was an honor to work on it, I wouldn't recommend it used.Battery degradation was too much because of the air cooled battery pack. And upcoming EVs are so much more better. And cheaper. So the resale value a few years from now might be absolutely nothing. IDK if there is a tax incentive to drive electric, but I would look for a slightly different car, if I were you.Opel Ampera (Vauxhall or whatever its called).BMW i3 REXKia Optima PHEV (might be out of your price range)Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV <- you can buy this for practically free here, because of the idiotic taxation of this country.Prius 3rd gen plug inThe latter three is not going to take you 70 miles (I think) but it will significantly reduce your fuel costs.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 27, 2021, 06:38:33 am
content: I know that i3's are good. I know a guy that has just bought his second and the 1 gen one he part exchanged after several years had a battery like new but he said they do go to town on the battery management which say the leaf does not hence the degradation. the i3 now has more miles for the same battery as they allow slightly more discharge now that they have the data to be sure.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 27, 2021, 09:10:46 am
content: BMW i3 is an extremely tiny car though. If you need to bring some stuff or people with you then it likely won't suffice. Small cars like that also don't handle very well but perhaps that is less of a problem with a heavy battery pack hanging under the car.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 27, 2021, 05:44:53 pm
content: if intending to charge from solar, bear in mind that the Zoe has rather poor efficiency at low charge currents - i suspect this is at least partly due to the massive EMC filter needed for 43kW charging.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 28, 2021, 12:03:33 pm
content: i am starting to think about the leasing option for now. Even at £400/m, currently I will spend £270 on fuel, allow £50 for repairs, £12 tax, £20 for insurance, and £120 saving for the next car that is £472/m I am actually spending anyway.ONTO do a car for £339/m for 12'000miles/year, I'd need 20'000 miles but have to register to find out what the price is for more miles.

author: janoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2021, 01:03:02 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on April 27, 2021, 09:10:46 amAbout the same as the Zoe or Leaf (Zoe is about the same size as Renault Twingo and only slightly bigger than Smart). So I guess that's not a problem for him, you usually don't haul much stuff when commuting to work.I would second the comment by tszaboo on the Leaf's battery pack, though.Pretty much all used EVs on the market are Leafs that were used as company runabouts, so the car likely has a lot of mileage on it. Leaf didn't have much range to begin with and they are notorious for rapid deterioration of their batteries. So the battery capacity values when new (30kWh) are completely meaningless - it is not uncommon that a 5-7 years old Leaf needs a new battery already because it has less than half of the capacity remaining. And that costs more than the value of the car (I saw some 7000 bucks quoted somewhere, there may be aftermarket packs available for less ), so the cars get rather sold to an unsuspecting sucker than repaired. Even Nissan itself specifies that the battery is "expected to last about 10 years and 100k miles".So unless the car was really really cheap and you needed to drive only a short distance (70 miles every day is a lot - that car had 150 miles max. range under ideal conditions when new!) I would steer clear of it, IMO. There will be no chance to resell it due to the expensive battery replacement it will need soon and with its current deteriorated range you would be constantly on edge whether or not you will make it home in the evening.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2021, 01:42:20 pm
content: Quote from: janoc on April 28, 2021, 01:03:02 pmAIUI that's only the case for the early ones made in Japan, which had poorer battery chemistry

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 28, 2021, 06:19:51 pm
content: Well I am going to give the Zoe ZE50 a go on a monthly lease. See how I do, nothing to loose at the moment then think about what I might buy.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2021, 06:24:08 pm
content: Quote from: janoc on April 28, 2021, 01:03:02 pmI'd recommend against a small car for such a long commute. It just isn't comfortable (again: crappy Owon versus A-brand gear). The size of a VW Golf is nice. I'd also opt for softer, quieter tires which also have better grip when it is cold & wet. Compared to running the aircon / heating it won't matter much anyway. A lot of Tesla's can be heard loud and clear due to the extremely noisy tires which is a shame because the ride could be so much quieter compared to ICE. Imagine sitting in that noise every work day for 2 hours. Being able to bring some stuff with you in a car is just convenient. I made the mistake of buying a sedan once but never again.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 28, 2021, 06:42:55 pm
content: I have gone on holiday with 3 other friends travelling 200+ miles in my little fiesta.

author: janoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2021, 08:09:48 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on April 28, 2021, 01:42:20 pmWhich is most likely what he was considering, given that the car was used. There aren't that many more recent (2018 and newer) models on the used car market for that price yet.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2021, 08:26:39 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on April 28, 2021, 06:42:55 pmWell, with a 70 mile commute you'll be doing 350 miles a week. Every week. In bad weather as well and you have to get there in time. And drive back safely after a long day of work. You will want a car that is not tiresome to drive.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 28, 2021, 08:49:28 pm
content: what makes a car tiresome to drive? How does the size matter?

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2021, 08:54:05 pm
content: Size is irrelevant if you fit properly in the seat. Handling, ergonomics and visibility have a much greater impact. Test drive whatever you are considering and see if it works for you.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 28, 2021, 08:57:05 pm
content: It's an ICE concept that does not carry over to EV I think. With an ICE car the larger the more features you get as it cost more like sound deadening and an engine with power. with an EV it's already quiet and it is pokier than an ICE of the same "power"

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2021, 09:10:12 pm
content: Some cars are definitely more fatiguing to drive than others, I just don't see it necessarily correlating with size. High noise level is part of it, vibration is part of it, how comfortable the seat is to sit in for a long period is significant, overall ergonomics such as the placement of the steering wheel and controls, armrests and such. And visibility plays a significant part in how much workload there is to drive it. In some cases larger cars have an advantage, but small cars typically have better visibility and it's easier to maintain spatial awareness. It's like a chair or a pair of shoes, what is comfortable to one person may not be for someone else.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2021, 09:14:34 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on April 28, 2021, 08:49:28 pmSuspension, so you dont feel every bump in your spine.Also, constantly shifting gears in city traffic, that's not a factor for an EV.Noise, internal and external. Crappy Pegueots interior probably makes more rattling noise than the engine.Seats. Just sit in a Volvo S60 for an hour, and do the same in a Citroen C2. I cannot sit in a C2 if anyone wants to sit behind me. My head just touches the ceiling.But it's not 100% about the size. A Mazda MX5 is more comfortable to drive than many cars.The number 1 factor that makes cars tiresome to drive is the other people on the road anyway.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2021, 09:47:05 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on April 28, 2021, 08:49:28 pmWheels further apart give more stability which means less wobbly (especially with wind, trucks passing by, etc). Notice how drivers of small cars (like Citroen C1 size) drive noticably slower compared to VW Golf sized cars. A small car is like driving a go-kart. Fun at times but not as a tool you need to get to your work. And ofcourse there is an optimum somewhere. An SUV has poor visibility as well so people tend to drive these kind of cars slower as well especially when it gets crowded.And again: don't underestimate the noise of the tires and how this gets inside the car. It is not easy to notice until you change to quieter tires. For example: I had Michelin Energy Saver tires under two of our cars (due to various circumstances) and when I swapped to softer tires I noticed I could hear the engine again. Now translate that to a much quieter EV... The first car was a loud diesel nearly 20 years ago. The second time 2 or 3 years ago with a Ford Focus (which is already relatively quiet) and I got rid of the Michelin tires before they where worn due to the noise and -more importantely- lack of grip when the temperature started to get in the single digits.@tszaboo: A Mazda MX5 is not a small car. It looks small because it is relatively low. IMHO it must be fun to drive an MX5 but I can't justify owning one (practicallity and environmental reasons). I have owned a couple of Mazda 323 myself and always found these cars a lot of fun to drive and very forgiving. A bit of understeer doesn't mean the car suddenly goes into a spin.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2021, 10:08:21 pm
content: A higher driving position can also be better. as you can see further ahead & regulate speed better

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2021, 10:37:20 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on April 28, 2021, 10:08:21 pmTrue, but if everyone has a higher driving position then the people in the rear can't see anything. If all cars have a similar height, then you can look through the car in front of you. I often find myself spending very little attention to the car in front of me if I can see through it. In the end the driver of the car in front of me will react to what is happening in front; if I can see that too then I can react to that 'event' at the same time.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 29, 2021, 02:41:34 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on April 28, 2021, 10:37:20 pmThat's the problem I have now, everyone is driving around in these great tall CUVs and when I'm in my station wagon I can't see over or around the stupid things. They're pointlessly tall too, they don't seem to have any more interior space or ground clearance, I don't even know where all the space goes. They're just tall, and when everyone else is driving one people are no better off.

author: janoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 29, 2021, 08:09:05 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on April 28, 2021, 09:47:05 pmI guess you really haven't seen one in person, have you?Mazda MX-5 is 3915mm long and 1735mm wide.For comparison:Nissan Leaf is 4480mm long and 1790mm wide.BMW i3 (that you have called tiny!) is 4011mm long and 1775mm wide.Even Zoe is 4087mm long and 1730mm wide!You can easily check here:https://www.automobiledimension.com

author: MadScientist
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 29, 2021, 08:56:31 am
content: As an owner of a 5 year old 30kwh leaf that has done 250,000km I can say rumours of its battery demise are much exaggerated especially in temperate climates.Yes I recently lost a second bar but overall range is down only 25km from new , still delivers 150 km daily.Servicing has been minimalSecond hand values have held up but are reasonable. Extremely comfortable , heated everything etc.Don’t listen to “ tomorrow’s tech “ arguments , it’s nonsense , if you need it now buy it now. It’s a car not a technology demonstrator.

author: MadScientist
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 29, 2021, 09:01:33 am
content: QuoteTo paraphrase mr. Churchill , “ you can rely on Toyota to do the right thing, ..... after they’ve tried everything else “

author: MadScientist
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 29, 2021, 09:05:37 am
content: QuoteAs an owner of a 5 year leaf with 250,000km on it.Your comments are simply rubbish , mine just lost its second bar and is down about 10%-12% in range on average , perfectly good car still. Not a single mechanical problemThe “ company leaf “ nonsense was largely first gen leafs and only applied in the U.K. due to a crazy initial PCP offer.

author: richard.cs
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 29, 2021, 10:40:21 am
content: Quote from: janoc on April 29, 2021, 08:09:05 amAll of these feel huge compared to my car (the Zoe I drive is technically my girlfriend's). 1967 MGB: 3886 mm long, 1524 mm wide, 1238mm high.Over time cars have gotten taller and wider much more than they have gotten longer. I like driving the Zoe, but the visibility is similar to all modern cars - severely limited by the thick pillars (that are there to keep you alive if you roll it).

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 29, 2021, 11:18:02 am
content: Quote from: MadScientist on April 29, 2021, 09:05:37 amThe problem with this statement is that it is just 1 data point. Besides that I'm quite sure the shock absorbers are complete rubbish by now.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 29, 2021, 11:47:35 am
content: why don't you stop polluting the thread with your massive assumptions that have no proof behind them.....

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 29, 2021, 12:02:21 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on April 29, 2021, 11:47:35 amWell, if you have been around a bit longer (like me) and owned/driven a couple of cars until they are BER you learn a few things about TCO, maintenance and comfort. One of the things I've learned is that shock absorbers are worn out after 150k kilometers. This has been consistent for all the cars I have owned. Shock absorbers are very important to push the tyres onto the road; IOW make sure to have grip in corners and during emergency braking. It could safe your life or someone else's one day. You can even get uneven tyre wear from bad shock absorbers which means needing to replace tyres sooner than strictly necessary (been there, done that). I usually buy a second hand car with around 150k km on it; nowadays I already factor in needing new shock absorbers into the budget.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 29, 2021, 04:42:02 pm
content: An electric car will be relatively new so is unlikely to have such issues and would be bought through a dealer who would check that and give a warranty. More than that you can't do on a second hand car as at the end of the day they are all pop luck to a degree.As things stand I am going to lease a car from ONTO for a few months and see how I go as I presently spend the same cost as the lease on my petrol guzzler anyway and my father needs another car and has always had his eyes on mine. When I know more about driving electric and my work situation is ore secure I'll start making more permanent plans about what I drive and where I live.

author: f4eru
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 29, 2021, 08:16:25 pm
content: Electric: 1/3 the maintenance cost. 1/4 the "fuel" cost (very country dependant)

author: m3vuv
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2021, 03:32:16 pm
content: I THINK THE LEAFS BATTERY ISSUES ARE DOWN TOO POOR THERMAL MANAGEMENT!? sorry for the caps,didnt realise it was on caps lock.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 06, 2021, 04:23:17 pm
content: Yes, this is why the i3 costs more, water managed and after 5 years no battery degradation at all.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 14, 2021, 11:19:29 am
content: Well I am leasing a car through ONTO. Yea the business model is great but I don't recommend the company. They have been useless. I was delivered a car that had broken aircon and I had to take a half day off work to deal with it even though this was a defective from "new" vehicle. So the gas all leaked out again and all they could talk about was a maintenance appointment while I kept telling them to do as they pleased but it would not involve me once again taking their vehicle that has a manufacturers defect under warranty to the dealer again. Not my vehicle, manufacturing defect, not my problem. Manufacturer should come out on bended knees begging forgiveness with a replacement and re-release the car when they had brought it up to spec.Ever since I had the car it had a couple of odd instances of not going the same way as the mode setting or slipping "out of gear" into neutral when first starting or had other "funnies". I then had a third instances where the car positively went in the direct opposite direction to the mode setting with a passenger in the car. after 5 days of chasing they gave me a date for a replacement which was 10 days after they became aware of the issue. Week later it shut down the drive train whilst I was going down hill when I switched from normal drive mode to re-gen braking drive mode. I braked with the hydraulic brakes to stop it and had to turn it "off and on again" as it would not get out of neutral.Once the replacement arrived I realized that the behaviour of the two cars was quite different and the new one is actually quite drivable unlike the old one that I never really felt comfortable with even when it was not having issues. A week later after I wrote to them explaining that I think I have ended up with a prototype car and have informed the VCA/VDSA, no reply from them. The old vehicle is still stuck at my employers premises, no idea what they are doing - hopeless.ONTO is just an office, everything they do is via contractors so they are unable to react to stuff like this. They have never actually seen or touched any of the vehicles they have delivered.

author: sandalcandal
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 14, 2021, 11:12:39 pm
content: Sounds like a real pain. Good ideas are useless without the right people to execute them.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 15, 2021, 07:51:39 am
content: I can imagine it is a cut throat market to be in but really they have gone too far. Calling support or emailing is useless, they just can't help. When they suggest head office call me back and I say yes please no one does. Hopeless. They say you will always have a car that is less than 2 years old so they have to find a way of getting rid of the cars after 2 years with up to 60'000 miles on the clock or they are in turn leasing from the manufacturer who will also have the same problem.But then the company is a collection of 7 companies with only one director and one of the companies as director to all the others and so in reverse. I don't know why this is necessary and assume some tax dodge when he is at the point of having names like, onto tech 1, onto tech 2...... onto tech 5 and then 2 other companies.

author: sandalcandal
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 15, 2021, 11:54:17 am
content: Quote from: Simon on August 15, 2021, 07:51:39 amSounds like a royal mess. I wonder if those shenanigans are required to sustain the product/service at their price point or this owner is gutting the business idea as much as possible to get the most money in their own pocket.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 15, 2021, 06:37:22 pm
content: Well they obviously told the manufacturer who sent their contracted breakdown service. Guy showed up and said that if it would drive he had to leave it and and it had to be driven to a dealer. So I showed him the email they sent me saying that the car would be collected by a breakdown vehicle due to the safety issues. I was the one that actually told them this was necessary and that no one could be asked to drive it without being made aware of the issue at which point any hire driver would refuse.I rang them to tell them what had happened and they said they did not know what they were going to do but said they would work something out. Since I told them I think this may be out of a proto batch no contact from them.

author: fcb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 16, 2021, 12:53:21 pm
content: It's not from a prototype batch of Leaf's.1. Manufacturers don't release prototypes to the general public, they can't be certified easily - they get donated to museums or crushed. Too much hassle/liability.2. Leaf Gen2 was 2017 and your supplier stated <2yrs old. So aside from point 1, your vehicle isn't older than August 2019??Nissan got alot wrong with the Leaf Gen2 - talk about clutching defeat from jaws of victory.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 16, 2021, 01:19:22 pm
content: Quote from: fcb on August 16, 2021, 12:53:21 pmI realise the Leaf Gen 2 isn't the greatest of cars, but it disappeared from sight so quickly after its release I have heard almost nothing about how it really works out for people. It takes real skill to sink a product that badly after the high profile of the Gen 1 model.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 16, 2021, 06:25:52 pm
content: Quote from: fcb on August 16, 2021, 12:53:21 pmWho said it's a leaf? made by a company in the same group so maybe shares some problems, and I won't be touching another car from any of the group.I am aware that manufacturers do not release prototypes - not intentionally but this car always felt very odd and unpolished. The replacement car is very different in control and so much better, in fact perfect but registered just one month later. So either a major update happened right after the first one was produced or something has gone wrong. There is a difference in the default instrument panel layout compared to all the ones I see in reviews. I have come across a review of the same model on youtube that unlike all of the others has the same instrument layout as the first car I got. Coincidentally the reviewer described the poor usability of the brakes exactly the same way I would on that car.The replacement has very different brake behaviour as it does accelerator behaviour. My limited knowledge of how these things work is that one does not just get up one day with a bee in their bonnet to "fix that pesky accelerator and brake". It's something that would have been carefully considered with management approval and external bodies would need to be notified of the changes after retesting.When I worked on a radiator cooling fan speed controller (glorified signal generator) at my last job it was a mammoth task for a company that had never gone for VCA registration to get that approved by the VCA due to the paperwork, FMEA and having to submit design and BOM information. Even a change in software has to be notified we were told.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 16, 2021, 10:35:35 pm
content: So basically the first car you got needs a software update. Nothing out of the ordinary with relatively young cars. The brakes work just fine, it is the accellerator and regenerative braking control loops which needed more polishing.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 17, 2021, 07:23:15 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on August 16, 2021, 10:35:35 pmOne does not "just" update the drive train software. And one really, really "just does not!" put an unsuspecting member of the public in a car that behaves erratically and dangerously! The dealer did do some update to the satnav/multimedia screen but that is completely different from the drive train which I believe also holds an instrument panel layout setting of it's own which is not necessarily in sync with the setting in the drive train or other onboard computer so they conflict because the manufacturer could not even master the concept of 2 way communication between 2 systems, no wonder they can't even do a motor that goes the right way!They have gone to great lengths to make a software clutch, yes that's right. That thing that automatics tried to hide from the user and electrics simply don't have? this manufacturer went to great lengths to recreate one that is not there and ballsed it up proper on the first car that would lurch off from a standstill to 5mph so you were left controlling the car in forwards or reverse manoeuvring with the brake as the car tried to drag itself in what ever direction was set (most of the time). So if you were say parked by the roadside in a line of cars and had to shunt up and down to get out it was rather scary as you would easily hit another car. On one occasion I had to use one foot on the accelerator and one on the brake.... This aspect of the car in itself was perhaps to be considered dangerous, I don't know what expectations there are and who tests these things. Clearly they knew it was really bad and the replacement is totally different. I mean months of work may have gone into these changes. I can't believe anyone in their right mind would release a car like this.