WTB: Time Base Corrector for S-VHS - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: brabus
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 14, 2015, 09:41:03 pm
content: Hello everyone,I am restoring some old VHS tapes, and I need to buy a TBC (Time Base Corrector), like the classic AVT-8710 or TBC-100 - TBC-1000.Naturally I am interested in evaluating other models, if you have something different.If anyone has an used item of this kind, I am interested to buy it. Yes, it is a quite exotic piece of gear.Thanks a lot!

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 15, 2015, 11:56:51 am
content: Quote from: brabus on September 14, 2015, 09:41:03 pmIf you can't find them then have a look at the Grundig GV-280S, Panasonic NV-V8000 or Blaupunkt RTV-1000 (rebadge of the Panasonic). These are SVHS VCRs that all have a built-in TBC, the Grunding for playback and the Panasonic and Blaupunkt for playback and recording.Just an idea....

author: brabus
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 15, 2015, 01:18:32 pm
content: Hello WuerstchenhundThanks a lot for your answer, your advice is right: I already have a Metz 9877 (rebadged version of the Panasonic NV-HS1000).The internal TBC works great, but I keep on having issues with the signal integrity.I explain the situation, if someone is interested:Quality Vs. connection:VCR --> TV: PerfectVCR --> Capture Device: Bad chroma issues, sometimes OK, sometimes terrible. Horizontal coloured stripes all over the place.SVHS Camera OUT --> TV: PerfectSVHS Camera OUT --> Capture Device: PerfectVCR --> SVHS Camera IN: Not bad, but colour stripes flashing from time to time, just like VCR --> Capture Device.These trials seem to demonstrate that the four devices work great if analyzed individually.My suspect is that the Sync and colour burst produced by the VCR are a bit weak; the TV* can acquire them without issues, but the acquisition device needs sharper signals.I found the schematics of my TV, and tried to use the internals to regenerate my sync signals (just by whitdrawing the signal after the input matrix/preamplifier, removing a couple of 0402 resistors), with no success.Today I am going to look at the Y and C signals with the oscilloscope, so we'll see the difference between the perfect signal produced by the camera and the problematic signal from the VCR.I wanted to use a TBC like the AVT-8710 because it is a full-frame (instead of the simpler line TBC of the HS1000), and it provides AGC and sync regeneration for Y/C signals.That's my last chance, I spent too much time on this stuff already, and I still can't figure out what is wrong. It hurts my nerves to see such a perfect picture on the TV, and the total colour disaster on my PC.Thanks a lot if you read the whole thing.*TV: Sharp LC32D65

author: grumpydoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 15, 2015, 02:28:29 pm
content: Quote from: brabus on September 15, 2015, 01:18:32 pmTVs are often quite forgiving of poor input signals.QuoteIs that the camera playing the tapes, or just live output?If the former why not use the camera to play the tape into the capture board?You did say buy - what budget were you looking at?I have no experience with these things but would this sort of beasthttp://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Evolution-G2-Multistandard-Time-Base-Corrector-SDI-Rack-Mount-/201421019427be of interest?

author: brabus
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 15, 2015, 05:12:41 pm
content: Hello grumpydoc, thanks for your interest.QuoteLet's say that the quality of the result has priority, so an investment of 1000€ is not an issue.The issues are the following:- I do not want to buy-and-try hundreds of € worth of gear, and discover that the problem is still there.- I hate to try solving problems by shooting at them. I want to discover the root cause.I wanted to try with the TBC, but I am really not sure about it.I just observed the signals with the oscilloscope, in fact sync and (especially) chroma burst are a bit weak from the VCR, and almost ideal from the live camera. Maybe the color burst is really the cause, and the TBC can help reconstructing it.QuoteThis is true, therefore I am totally lost. Why is it so? Why does a TV work better than a capture device?This 5 years old Sharp LCD TV is amazing with analog signals (also CVBS!), but at the same time a brand new Samsung (in the other room) exhibits major issues. It literally sucks, I see grainy artifacts on the screen when selecting analog inputs. Maybe old TV's were designed to better accomodate analog signals; today almost no one has a VCR anymore, therefore producers tend to save on the old inputs, is this an educated guess?What drives me crazy is this incredible difference between the results.Even the crappy USB grabber gives me clear, crisp, *perfect* results with the SVHS camera connected to it (in live output). My problem is that the tapes are full-size VHS, that I cannot play anymore with the camera.I found information about people having the same issue with the best Canopus devices, so I am thinking that my issue is not on the capture side, but on the source instead.Let me add this picture to show you the problem:Look at that green bars and that shocking orange tablecloth. Just look at them.The same picture on the TV is flawless, the colours are normal and detail is crisp.Again, I explored all the settings of the device, with no success.Still, SVHS camera is shown flawlessly. Just VCR signal gives me this horrendous result.

author: aargee
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 15, 2015, 10:03:22 pm
content: I do think if you nab the problem at the source, the VCR, you might get better results. Try getting a commercial Panasonic, like the AG-7350. I have two of them here, but I'm a bit far away!For me they have produced rock solid outputs, even from the crappiest tapes, which leads me to also warn about the physical state of a lot of tapes now days which generally love depositing themselves all over the heads of the VCR.The 7350's and their kind were used a lot in medical equipment, like Ultrasound. So a hunt through scrap/old gear such as this may turn up some bargains.

author: desy2820
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 16, 2015, 02:02:31 am
content: I'm wondering if copy-protection is at play here. Macrovision?I think, it's been a while. I had a similar problem with a Sony VCR when trying to copy tapes, if it was anywhere in the signal chain, my recording was garbage.I have no idea how or if it can be disabled, as I just borrowed a different VCR, which worked for me.Might be worth exploring.....

author: grumpydoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 16, 2015, 08:06:47 am
content: Quote from: brabus on September 15, 2015, 05:12:41 pmI'd like to say that it is because they are designed to be robust in the face of severe signal degradation but I'm not actually sure that is trueMacroVision has been mentioned which might be a possibility if these are pre-recorded tapes. Otherwise poor/marginal chroma and sync which is the avenue you are considering with TBCsQuoteAh, OK so we're comparing live signal from the camera with playback on the VCR. Not quite apples-for-apples but perhaps useful when it somes to looking at the signal for possible causes.QuoteNod, but sometimes you have to test a hypothesis by doing the experiment.

author: brabus
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 16, 2015, 09:20:02 am
content: Guys, first of all THANK YOU for all your hints, they are all relevant and interesting. I am amazed by the fact that someone is spending so much time and energy to help me.Let's go through your hints:QuoteVery interesting piece of gear, I am very tempted to try one of them!I already tried a different VCR, a Panasonic NV-F65 with CVBS output. Same thing: crystal picture on the TV, but color flicker on the capture device and on the camera input*. Also the analysis with the oscilloscope showed a reasonable signal, without spikes or differences between even/odd fields. By the way, it was the first time I tried the "PAL TV Trigger" functionality on my 54621A, it works great!QuoteThis is also an interesting hint; I alreay met this issue with commercial tapes. But my tapes have been recorded in the 90's with a normal VCR**, on brand new blank tapes. I am impressed by the quality of those tapes when played on TV: no drop-out whatsoever, even after 20+ years.--> I assume that the tapes are OK.QuoteExactly. I wanted to perform a test with a "reference" signal, in order to exclude any issue on the acquisition device.QuoteUnfortunately, that's right. I have no other means, at the moment. I can only suspect chroma/sync issues, hoping that the TBC can solve them.I am considering designing my own TBC, based on a TVP5160:http://www.ti.com/product/tvp5160/descriptionThis chip really seems full-optional, and paired with the ADV7311 they form an impressive signal processing commando.The TVP5160EVM schematics are a piece of cake, a very good basis to develop the board.Theoretically, a TBC works in the same way, right?Signal IN --> ADC --> frame buffer --> processing --> DAC and sync/chroma reconstruction --> Signal OUTI still have to find a good TBC teardown, to better understand how it works!*Camera: Canon MV400i with CVBS/SHVS in/out capability.**Sanyo VHR-290, long time gone.

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 16, 2015, 09:58:53 am
content: Quote from: brabus on September 16, 2015, 09:20:02 amMy old Sony VCR had a switch labeled "Rental" on/off.I found when copying tapes using it as the player the copy looked terrible unless i set it to off.I also found if i used that VCR as the recorder they came out fine regardless of the setting. Except, when i tried to copy them again. They looked terrible if i had copied them with the setting on.I think the switch turned the copy protection on/off for playing and recording

author: dexters_lab
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 16, 2015, 11:17:27 am
content: would looking at the signal on a scope help identify where the issue might be?probably a good idea to identify the exact problem before spending $$

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 16, 2015, 07:38:48 pm
content: I have some Panasonic professional recorders, which have a feature in that you can turn off the video AGC, which means they then do a superb job of making copies of tapes with Macrovision encoding, which was very useful duplicating tapes. A lot of the semi pro Panasonic equipment also has the ability to turn off the AGC, which works well for video with poor sync, but otherwise good quality. Just means there is going to be a slight luminance variation if the source has one, but they also have manual level controls for both audio and video level.BTW, a video recorder will work very well even with heads worn down to the point where they no longer will play back video clearly, but as the recording side only cares about the edge of the head at the point where it leaves, not the actual gap, it will run with severely worn heads. I still have some video recorders, which actually do not have the ability to play back the video off the tape other than by plugging in on the board inside a cable with the video and audio out. No front panel controls either other than power and eject ( and the associated cassette stackers) with only a video and audio input, along with the input to loop the remote signal through or to connect an external control panel. I automated this for duplicating under licence, though sales dropped off a cliff after DVD came out, so it sat in a corner.

author: brabus
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2015, 10:57:18 am
content: Thanks a lot again for your answers, every hint helps to build up the whole picture (pun intended).I am bidding on an AVDC-55, theoretically a better video acquisition device than my USB dongle. I am not 100% satisfied with the overall noise of the USB dongle, so the AVDC will improve the situation in any case. If the problem persists, TBC is on my list.I will keep the 9877 VCR, since TV playback really is flawless. I looked for copy protection switches, but I found nothing at all; plus, the problem persists also with the Panasonic NV-F65, so I would move the spot from the source to the acquisition device.Let's see!

author: brabus
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2015, 08:38:29 pm
content: ...and I won the bid on eBay!Let's see how this '55 performs.

author: SL4P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2015, 12:10:51 am
content: Another thought to toss into the mix...A (consumer/prosumer) TBC is sometimes a short-term 'resynchroniser' to regenerateconsistentoutput timing - based on the median input timing, but if the source timing (i.e. the reference) has drifted (line/frame/sc freq, drum, capstan speed etc), the output may beconsistent- but still out of spec for transcribing etc.Thelooseinput tolerance of a tv/monitor can hide these visually, but when re-recording, the errors accumulate in microseconds, and can't be ignored.What you may want to look for is a device that is slightly higher up the food chain - a combined TBC/Frame synchroniserthat re-clocks and re-phases the output to a known-good reference input. and yes, they can freeze/repeat - or drop lines, fields, frames to recover the timing integrity...Just a thought.

author: Richard Crowley
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2015, 12:28:00 am
content: Note that the Canopus (now Grass Valley) ADVC-300 model features built-in time-base correction.The lower models (55, 100, 110) did not have TBC capabilities.

author: brabus
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2015, 11:55:24 pm
content: SL4p, Richard, thanks a lot for your suggestions. In fact the ADVC-300 was on my wish list thanks to the built-in TBC.But after reading many controversial comments* on the additional filters in the '300, I decided to keep the chain simple and controlled --> I chose the ADVC-55.If the result will still be disappointing, a full-frame TBC will find its place between the VCR and the ADVC - probably the AVT-8710.*For example:http://forum.videohelp.com/threads/356262-Canopus-ADVC-100-vs-ADVC-110-vs-ADVC-300Quote

author: Richard Crowley
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 20, 2015, 12:03:47 am
content: Proc Amp, Noise Reduction, And Time-Base Correction are three completely DIFFERENT and INDEPENDENT functions.Proc Amps and Noise Reduction will do NOTHING for time-base errors. They will potentially make it worse.I saw NOTHING in that forum that appeared to be written by an adult who had half a clue what time-base error is.What a pathetic mess of misinformation.

author: SL4P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 20, 2015, 12:06:04 am
content: Quote from: Richard Crowley on September 20, 2015, 12:03:47 amHALLELUJAH brother!

author: brabus
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 20, 2015, 10:40:41 am
content: Richard, do you believe that my chroma disaster can be related to a time base error?I really can't figure out the origin of that mess (see picture in previous page), and most of all, I can't figure outwhythe same picture looks flawless on TV.Yes, maybe that website is not the best example; in fact I spent many many hours here:http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/video-restore/2251-tbc-time-base.htmlStill, there is no clear definition of what an ideal signal chain should look like, every contributor has a different setup, and basically all of them found their way by trial and error.I guess I am going to have the same destiny. If the ADVC-55 performs bad even with the TBC, ADVC-300 is next on the list.It's a bit annoying having to try each and every single device on the market, but I see no alternative.But most of all, it hurts my nerves having no clue about the root cause of my issue (see previous picture).

author: Richard Crowley
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 20, 2015, 12:12:03 pm
content: Yes, that looks very much like time-base error. It was very common for old tapes to look fine on a monitor/TV, but not be anywhere near stable enough for copying, editing, or digital capture. This was why TBC was invented. Displaying video on a screen is a far less critical function than accurately capturing the original Y and C signals into digital form. And newer digital TV/monitor screens are quite likely less tolerant of time-base errors than older models. Just because it is no longer an issue here in the modern, digital era.Your experiments with the camera, etc. are excellent troubleshooting procedure. The fact that the tapes look good on a screen mean that you probably have only simple time-base errors and not something more serious.That does NOT look like Macrovision or any other kind of copy protection. They used several different schemes to "diddle" the frames outside the active area that would molest the ability of a VCR to decode the video signal, while leaving TV screens oblivious. But they did NOT use any kind of time-based diddling that I ever saw. It was mostly throwing "garbage" in the vertical blanking interval to confuse the automatic gain functionality of consumer recorders. Many commercial TBCs would very handily remove any Macrovision artifacts.You have not revealed any background about these tapes. The more you know about them, the better chance you have of devising a scheme for replaying them successfully. For example, do you know who, when, how, they were recorded? Do you possibly have access to the machine they were recorded on? The "calibration" between the recording machine and the playback machine is called "interchange". They tried to maintain some level of interchange to allow tapes to be played back on other machines properly. And parts of the interchange problem would exhibit as time-base errors upon playback.When I look at Ebay (at least here in USA), I see a great many commercial TBC units for sale at a tiny fraction of their original cost. I see many great candidates for < USD100. With the availability of discarded surplus commercial gear like that, dunno why anybody would want to fool around with cheap plastic consumer gear? Of course, those are likely all NTSC, so you would have to research your European marketplace to see if there are similar things available for PAL (assuming that is what you are using?)Building your own TBC seems extreme just to capture some old tapes. Especially when discarded commercial/broadcast gear of exceptional quality and capability is being tossed in the rubbish. Besides that TI TVP5160 says it can do only line-by-line TBC and has a limited range of +/- 80 pixels.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 20, 2015, 01:12:42 pm
content: A lot of the commercial units will be both PAL, NTSC and SECAM. Often with the ability to do both format changing to and from each standard with the TBC ability. Often used in news rooms as there they often got a lot of satellite footage in in assorted formats from a worldwide source, plus they got in tape from all sorts of format, from Umatic to Betacam SP and all the consumer formats.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2015, 02:41:16 pm
content: Not sure if this is still an issue but maybe this could be another alternative to an external TBC:http://www.sensoray.com/products/611.htmThe website blurb says this:"The Model 611 uses special circuitry to achieve horizontal and subcarrier synchronization to incoming video. It guarantees generation of the required pixel/line from a video source in which line length can vary by several microseconds. This circuitry allows the 611 adapter to quickly and accurately lock on to video signals, regardless of source. Since the technique is completely digital, the 611 can recognize unstable signals caused by VCR head switching and adapt the locking mechanism to accommodate the source."The thing is made for cameras but maybe that's a good alternative for your use case.I have a new Sensoray 611 card (bulk) here but I've never used it and I don't have any analog video sources either, so it's essentially for sale.

author: TerraHertz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2015, 07:14:42 am
content: Pity I didn't see this thread before, and now there are no images showing up in the thread of your video error effects. I used to work in professional video, but with no pics, can't advise.Also a pity you don't have a proper video waveform monitor and vectorscope. These are fairly cheaply available now analog video is out of fashion. The waveform monitor is *almost* like a scope, but has a lot of composite-video related features a scope lacks. A vectorscope is for analyzing chroma carrier problems, and you can forget about using a scope for these.With the right tools your problem could be identified in seconds.Not that saying this is any help to you.

author: brabus
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2015, 09:14:32 am
content: Hello Terrahertz, welcome to the discussion! You can see an example of the issue I am facing on the previous page:Chroma Issue ExampleIf you don't see it, I can send you the frame via mp.Wuerstchenhund, thanks a lot for your hint, let's talk about it later and see if it could help.Guys, I finally obtained the ADVC-55, and the result is:no change.Exactly the same video artifacts, chroma saturation over the roof, horizontal chromatic lines out of control... On still image, colors flicker like crazy.The great difference between the cheap USB grabber and the ADVC-55 is the noticeably lower noise floor. So far, a small +1 for the ADVC-55!This confirms what all of you said: the problem lies upper in the chain.Very important to notice: the S-VHS signal produced by the Metz 9877 and the CVBS signal produced by the Panasonic NV-F65 bring the exact same result.On the TV the video plays flawless.Therefore, I suppose that my VHS source is OK and I don't need a new VHS player.Now, my preliminary defect analysis:I have no horizontal/vertical jitter at all, so this leads me to think that the luma sync signal (i.e. line and frame sync) is OK.In fact, if I try removing the color after capturing the video, I obtain a nice and clean B/W video, with no noticeable defects. Just the chroma is really tremendous.During my search I found this piece of information, which gave me a lot to think about:QuoteSource:VideoHelp Forum, post #13 by videobruce.I can't figure out how the supposedly limited bandwidth of consumer recorders can affect chroma so much. Yes, the chroma burst from the VHS looked a bit weak if compared to the robust signal provided by the camera, but can this really make so much difference?If this is the root cause, I guess that TBC is the way to go: rebuilding the chroma burst may solve the issue.Before proceeding, I would like to collect your opinions. TerraHertz, if you think a video analyzer could help, let's follow that road! Do you have something to suggest?I just add a quick overview on the european TBC market:Old professional gear:PROs: Overall high quality, low price (200€)CONs: Difficult to obtain, mostly comes from USA: ~100€ import taxes + shipping on a 100€ value, aged components, possibly limited capabilities; in general not recommended in the forums (why?)Example:interesting JVC gear on eBayAVT-8710 and rebrandedPROs: Cheap (250€), picture controls available (saturation, hue, luma, etc.), seems to be the market leaderCONs: Low quality assembly, reported overheating issues, reported poor performance even with good tapesExample:AVT-8710 on eBayDataVideo TBC-100 / TBC-1000PROs: Higher quality, better reported resultsCONs: Difficult to obtain, more expensive (300€), no controls at allExample: no examples available at the momentDataVideo TBC-x000PROs: Higher quality, professional equipment, controls availableCONs: Video distribution amplifier issues, known also on the TBC-1000Example:TBC-4000 on AmazonTvOne 1T-TBCPROs: Is there any? Seems identical to the other TBCs, controls and specs are the same.CONs: The most expensive on the market (400€ - up to 800€), lack of reviews.Example:1T-TBC on eBayI am very tempted by the TBC-4000 on Amazon (only 200$!), but... is there any good reason to prefer the inexplicably expensive TvOne 1T-TBC?Should I get a video analyzer before, and then choose the right TBC?Thanks a lot.

author: TerraHertz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2015, 10:23:07 am
content: Quote from: brabus on October 06, 2015, 09:14:32 amAh, I see it now. Turns out there is *also* a problem developing with images on this forum (ironic), in that suddenly some don't display in my usual browser (Opera, pre-chrome). But it does display in Firefox.Anyway, yep, that's definitely a chroma-lock failure problem. The saturation suggests the color burst amplitude is too low. This results in poor lock, but ALSO color decoders often use the burst level for gain control. So, low burst, causes any color in the image to be super saturated.Do you have your monitor set to underscan?Ha, silly me, that's an image from your capture device, not the monitor. So of course it grabs a little more than the standard frame area.There's a head switching horizontal tear near the bottom. Is that stationary? Is that a paused image, or capture from a normal speed playback?QuoteYes, looks OK to me. Vertical edge of the bottle is straight.QuoteSure can! The burst level, duration, shape etc are supposed to be constant and standard. The level in particular is used as a reference for gain control. TVs/monitors tend to be very forgiving.QuoteAssuming the TBC input can work with such a bad signal. It may not, the TBC is supposed to be for fixing timing errors and horizontal bar dropouts due to fast or slow play tracking. Not so much for fixing broken signals.QuoteI don't think you mentioned which video system you're using? PAL, NTSC or SECAM? (Online lists say Italy used PAL VHS.)Also if you mentioned having tried multiple video cassette players, or just the one?And is it the same for all tapes you tried?And have you tried playing some random tapes from other sources?For hunting this problem, best to get some worthless tapes that produce the same effect, so you're not playing the precious tapes over and over. There is wear, and always the chance of a machine chewing the tape. Especially an old machine. Btw, if your tapes are precious, NEVER pause the image. The head then runs over and over the same spot on the tape. Not good.Can't you find another VCR you can borrow to try? That would be my next.If not, have you tried cleaning the VCR heads?QuoteI think first you should see if your VCR is mangling the color burst off the tape, or if the tapes are old/bad.Google pal video waveform standardYou'll find plenty of info on what the waveform should look like. eghttps://www.maximintegrated.com/en/app-notes/index.mvp/id/734The burst pp level should be the same amplitude as the sync-tip to back porch (where the burst centerline sits.) For 1Vpp video that's 0.3Vpp.You can do that with a scope, no need to get fancy.I don't know what the used video test gear market is like in Italy. Something like this:http://www.ebay.com/itm/TEKTRONIX-1735-1725-PAL-NTSC-VECTORSCOPE-WAVEFORM-MONITORS-DUAL-CASE-/351509643320?hash=item51d79b8038would do what you need, but vectorscopes do require you understand what you're doing. Heh. that one is listed as 'vectorscope no signal', but it's possible they don't know how to operate it.Probably not worth getting such a thing for your problem, since it's likely simple - a bad VCR.

author: aargee
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2015, 11:22:15 am
content: I still reckon a professional VCR like the AG 7350 would be a good start, although I'd beg or borrow one from somewhere first to see if it makes a difference.My 7350 had no problems with commercial macrovision correction and other weird problems associated with old de-generating tapes. The output S-Vid signal was fed through a DV-Cam to produce a firewire signal then into a 2009 Mac.

author: Richard Crowley
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2015, 02:08:25 pm
content: How many tapes are you trying to capture? How important is this?At this late date in the life-cycle of VHS, it may be the better part of valor to simply turn the tapes over to a professional to transfer/capture.Unless you want to get into the business of capturing old VHS tapes and become an expert yourself.Perhaps that is a viable business model that is in demand in your part of the world.But otherwise, it just seems like a tremendous amount of time, money and effort for such modest result.I would NOT recommend that TBC-4000 unless you can PROVE that it can function on PAL (assuming you have PAL tapes).The AVT-8710 looks far more promising from the description.It seems quite remarkable that similar used gear isn't available in the EC??? Why is that?

author: brabus
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2015, 11:52:13 am
content: Having identified the issue in the chain is a remarkable success. Thanks a lot to you all, I really learned a lot in this discussion!I think you all deserve some answers, so let me proceed chronologically:Quote from: Richard Crowley on September 20, 2015, 12:12:03 pmI have access to the video camera used to record the original tapes, but then the VHS-C tapes were transferred to normal VHS' using a Sanyo VHR-290 VCR, long time gone. Playing them back with the Metz 9877 adds a third device in the chain, explaining the final degradation of chroma, although Luma and sync are intact. So in the end: one ring in the chain is missing.Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on October 04, 2015, 02:41:16 pmThanks a lot for your offer, but I think I will keep my ADVC-55 and add the right block in the chain, between the VCR and the '55.Quote from: TerraHertz on October 06, 2015, 10:23:07 amI think this is the most convincing analysis, but:Quote from: TerraHertz on October 06, 2015, 10:23:07 amI also guess that the AGC of the TBC will reproduce the same mess I see on my screen. I definitely need a TBC with an adjustable chroma gain.QuotePALQuoteI have a Metz 9877 and a Panasonic NV-F65 (actually I had two of them, one just sold; results were the same).QuoteNo, some tapes play better than the others, but I observe a general chroma saturation. I have some of the original VHS-C tapes (24 years old!), they play noticeably better than the VHS in which the content was copied; I use a VHS-C to VHS adaptor. Shame I only have 10 original VHS-C (5 hours total), against ~20 VHS varying from 120 to 240 minutes. My father used to transfer the content of the VHS-C to normal VHS.QuoteUnfortunately I don't have other tapes, but I'll try finding out something to use as a reference. I will try to record something on a blank VHS and play it back using the same VCR, I am pretty sure the result will be flawless.QuoteYou are right. I did it a couple of times, promising to myself not to do it again.Some people advice to run the tapes full forward and full reverse a couple of times before playing them; I don't understand why this could bring any good, but I can assure that some tapes play better when they are played for the second time. Electrostatic charge to dissipate?QuoteI will try to find another VCR, but I am starting to be pretty convinced that the origin of my issues lay in the long signal chain between the first record and the final play. The missing Sanyo VHR-290 could have played an important role.QuoteI already analyzed the signal with the scope, noticing a quite big difference in amplitude between the burst and the color signals. If I was an AGC, I would wind up to max gain.I thoroughly cleaned the heads with isopropyl and hard cotton sticks, always applying mild tangential force to the heads and drum, in order to avoid breaking/misaligning them. I removed some dirt, but nothing serious. The VCR seems having seen not many cassettes.QuoteI am really curious to try another VCR, although the two I already have play flawless on TV and behave in the same way with the capture devices.Quote from: Richard Crowley on October 06, 2015, 02:08:25 pmAbout 10 VHS-C (30m each) and about 20 VHS (120 to 240 m each).QuoteThat is a sensible advice; a reasonably professional service would cost me ~300€.But I prefer to keep control over the final result, and spend more or less the same money in equipment and increase my knowledge.QuoteActually, less and less people is transferring old tapes into DVDs, the majority of them already did it - in any case the market is very small, and you always end up discussing the quality and the price with the customer. Some professional services do it for 5€ (fiveEuro!) per cassette. Don't ask me about the quality, but for sure they get all the customers.QuoteGood point. Meanwhile, I bought a small and cheap video processor with chroma/saturation/contrast adjustment capability; I just want to try reducing chroma level before feeding it to the capture device. If this fixes the problem, I can actually avoid a TBC.QuoteNoted. I still can't figure out the differences between the models. Perhaps the AVT is just the best seller, therefore the cheapest.QuoteReally, really good question. Even in Germany I can't find something interesting.In general, US electronics market is by far better than EU.

author: SL4P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2015, 09:20:16 pm
content: As you have decent H and V lock, as others have said - there are questions about subcarrier /chroma.Many TVs will accept a witches brew of colour standards - some of which are non-standard...!My thought is that the colour may be modulated in a PAL 3.58 subcarrier (rather than 4.43) - which would exhibit the symptoms you describe.Some TVs will auto-switch, and display the video format info in the corner of the screen, or if you can find a loaner - try a 'standards converter' that understands PAL 3.58.(above comments written with the assumption you are in a PAL TV market!)

author: brabus
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2015, 03:33:55 pm
content: ...and we have some new results!Following the road of the chroma root cause, I decided to try a cheap analog video processor, just for the sake of it - actually to investigate the road without wasting too much money on it in case it was wrong.I managed to obtain an old "Carena MVP-4000" for about 20€ (pictures).Well, I kept the video level, contrast and sharpness unchanged, and just lowering the saturation I obtained the result in attachment. Heck, we can even read the "45" on the letter, meaning the 45th marriage anniversary of my grannies (long time gone)That's a full success!So, I thank all of you again for helping me figuring out the problem!Now I am seriosly thinking about a TBC with chroma correction capability, but on the other hand I am wondering if I will obtain any benefit at all. My tapes are really not bad in terms of sync/dropout/noise, so I may be happy with the result and save many hundreds of €€€.I could buy the AVT-8710, use it for the bunch of tapes I need, and then sell it back on the bay. These things should keep their value reasonably well, what do you think?

author: SL4P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2015, 03:51:10 pm
content: That's a pretty good screen shot from an old VHS tape!Congratulations on your persistence paying off

author: brabus
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2015, 07:25:56 am
content: Thank you SL4P!...and I just won an ebay auction for an AVT-8710! I am pretty sure I will obtain a better B/W contrast and lower overall noise with that device, instead of the cheap-ass "Carena". The 8710 won my preference thanks to the integrated controls. I am pretty damn sure that the interiors are *exactly* the same between the aforementioned TBC devices. We'll see!Results and teardown will follow...