First PCB in 25 years :-) - Diptrace and PCB Fab in a Box - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / projects

author: kaz911
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 26, 2012, 12:43:14 pm
content: okay - just etched my first PCB in about 25 years.Layout done in DIPTrace and printed on HP LJ on PCBFab in a box transfer paper.Then rolled through a laminatorthen etched.I was supposed to use a "green top coat" on top of the printer etch - which would fuse it the layers a bit better - but every time I tried - it pulled of some of the tracks.I tried printing on a new LJ 2055dn which is 1200 dpi - but that did not work - the toner is so pitted that... yes... not working. But the tiny HP 1102 worked okay. Im still not perfectly happy - and first etch will go in a frame and not be used.. since there are a few broken tracks where the FeCl was faster than I was - so they are broken. But it looks "reasonable" I think for attempt no 1 :-). But after 25 years there are SO many things you have forgotten. :-)

author: T4P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 26, 2012, 01:54:10 pm
content: Thanks for sharing !I now use a Epson CX17NF which is a LED printer and according to epson it uses very small particles .Hmm .Must try .

author: kaz911
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 26, 2012, 02:43:02 pm
content: Fine Toner on the LJ 2055dn caused a lot of problems - the black was not "thick" enough. Just try to print a solid black box on a white sheet and see if you get a uniform black - or a black the varies a bit in color (so lighter black some places and darker black other places)

author: EU1
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 26, 2012, 02:50:05 pm
content: Just use hatch pattern for ground plane.

author: kaz911
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 26, 2012, 02:53:00 pm
content: it was not the ground planes that gave the big problems. It was pitting inside the tracks. (tried printing with and without ground planes)/k

author: TerminalJack505
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 26, 2012, 05:14:44 pm
content: This is the same method I use to make boards at home. Using the green foil can be tricky but it is worth it. It sounds like there were some wrinkles in the foil when it went through the laminator. You have to hold the foil and place some tension on it when the board is pulled through the laminator to prevent the wrinkles.When etching, I use a cheap foam brush to speed the process. This also prevents undercutting and over-etching.

author: kaz911
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 26, 2012, 06:41:22 pm
content: it is my printer that is not putting down the tracks as well as others can...So when I use the green foil - when you pull the "material" off - it takes the tacks of. That is why first one is made without green foil. I tried the example prints in the PCB fab package - and I got them done "almost" perfect with 0.006 tracks and green foil.But warning: stay away from:HP Laserjet 2055HP Laserjet 1102And I would guess any HP Eco green printer.So now on PCB Fab's advice im looking for a HP 2300.

author: T4P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 26, 2012, 09:45:11 pm
content: As with any HP , they are the manufacturers of expensive ink .I just found out that my epson's toners only cost about somewhere less then 100SGD per toner .Now that's cheap ( And it's kind of small for a toner cartridge ... )

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 27, 2012, 01:04:44 am
content: Oh boy, that brings back memories!Thanks for sharing.Dave.

author: kaz911
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 27, 2012, 03:57:11 am
content: Quote from: AcHmed99 on March 26, 2012, 10:16:05 pmHi Ahmed, thanks for the helpful advice. I'm still learning DIPTrace - so had to find the "remove unconnected solder pour..." menu. This is the first PCB I have done in 25 years. Before that I used Protel and OrCAD on 8 MHz '286s in about 1983/84/85...Are you using PCB Fab in a Box? if so and with the 1018 + laminator can you get the green foil not to pull of the tracks?It is a shame that "modern" toner seems to kill the PCB Fab in Box product. What are the alternatives? (Apart from CNC milling)

author: GeoffS
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 27, 2012, 10:59:23 am
content: Now we need someone to create a PCB using Bishop graphics!That what I used the first time I made one and also the last time I made one - it has been quite a while.

author: kaz911
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 27, 2012, 11:49:40 am
content: Quote from: AcHmed99 on March 27, 2012, 10:35:55 ami'll try photo paper next. But I think it is the new "Eco Laser Printers" - they simply does not put down as much toner - or do it at higher temperatures - so transfer to PCB is "not as good". :-(/Kasper

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 27, 2012, 01:37:39 pm
content: How did you get all your holes so well aligned, that's the one thing i find tricky on homemade pcbs.Most printers have a density setting (sometimes you need to install the proper drivers from the website to get access to the setting)Turning this setting up helps but if you put too much toner on the board it tends to spread out when heated and thin tracks can end up twice as wide as they're supposed to be.I normally go over the board with a PCB pen and tidy up any bits that didn't transfer correctly before etching. It never comes out 100% perfect.

author: kaz911
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 27, 2012, 08:11:43 pm
content: okay - finally at 99% (or where I am happy it mightwork)I got the HP LaserJet 1102w to play nice - or work with the PCB Fab in a Box system. The toner needs slightly higher temperatures to attach to the PCB than the GBC H-65 provides. So running it through 4 times + 10 seconds with an Iron set to 320 degrees Fahrenheit makes the toner stick. (GBC runs at about 265-280f)Attached are pictures of the result of each stepPic 1 - Black Mask added with above procedurePic 2 - Green foil addedPic 3 - Etched but Mask still therePic 4 - Cleaned board :-) .."done" (apart from all the stupid holes i need to drill)And printing done one HP LJ 1102w with the following settings1. Density 5, FastRes12002. Printing TWO copies of board from DipTrace - first on normal paper - 2nd on the PCB transfer paper. Done on ONE print operation so PCB transfer paper is 2nd paper in tray. That heats up the rollers and gives a better and more uniform black.result: only 1/2 a solder island came off - but "corrected" with black pen. Outside "thick trace" is just for testing.Also make certain you have about 1/2 clearance on all sides to closest "real" track - since tracks close to the edges have a tendency to not get enough heat as you can see on the thick trace.

author: kaz911
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2012, 03:51:11 am
content: and almost forget - the HP LJ 2055dn does still not work. The toner density is too low. But the 1102w is a <$100 printer with wireless - and it actually lays down quite a thick layer.Next experiment is to see if I can avoid the green foil :-) so if toner density is think enough not to get pitting.

author: kaz911
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2012, 03:55:45 am
content: Quote from: Psi on March 27, 2012, 01:37:39 pmBased on what I have learned with PCB Fab in a Box - too much heat will make the tracks bleed to wide. If you use an Iron try adjusting it to about 280-290 degrees f. I use a GBC-H-65 Laminator first and then Iron since the HP LJ 1102 toner needs a little bit more heat. I tried some Photo glossy paper from HP and that works okay with same heat setting. But the paper I have is either to water prof or I was not patient enough so the paper was so stuck I pulled of traces after it was in the water for 10 min.But the PCB Fab in a Box paper works fine and lets go by itself.

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2012, 02:01:46 am
content: Quote from: kaz911 on March 28, 2012, 03:55:45 aminteresting, i'll have to try a lower temp next time.

author: poorchava
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 12, 2012, 03:19:10 pm
content: I'm celsius-grade guy, but if the converter doesn't lie 290 *F equals to about 143 *C. I'd say that you need higher temperature. My own procedure for doing toner-transfer pcb's is following:-print traces on any glossy paper (I've purchased like 200 sheets of cheapest one in office depot some time ago). I'm using LaserJet 4000 (bought it for ~$50). No idea if toner is original or refilled, but it does the job.-cut laminate to size (I'm using simple sheet metal cutters). Deburr the edges a bit with dremel-clean the laminate with abrasive cleaning agent to remove oxidation. Don't use too much water to amplify abrasion. Then clean laminate with isopropyl alcohol to remove any grease which you transferred from your fingertips. From now on don't touch the copper. Dry the laminate with paper towel.-now the critical part: transferring. I'm using a cheap chinese document laminator which I've modified to get higher temperature (removed thermal fuse, replaced thermostat with 8 amp switch). Measure tempereture with some multimeter equipped with thermocouple. I'm waiting to get 170*C, then i turn off the heater and put the pcb WITHOUT printout through the laminator (crucial expecially in case of larger PCBs). Then align the printout with the laminate and pass it numreous times through the laminator. Larger boards need more passes. Good starting line would be 8 passes for small pcb and about 20 for larger ones. If temperature falls below 150*C turn the heater on again.-get some weak acid. I use ordinary vinegar. Lemon acid will also do (yes, I used to actually squeeze lemons on PCBs). Put the pcb with printout stuck to it into the acid. Wait until paper falls off. this may take a while if your pcb contains large polygons. Weak acid dissolved the chalk which is the glossy layer on the paper-warm up the etching solution. I'm B327 (technically it's Sodium Persulfate Na2S2O8) because it's easiest to get in Poland. Ferric Chloride is hard to buy and much more messy. I also know that some people use mixture of Hydrogen Peroxide (H2O2) and Hydrochloric Acid (HCl) but I don't know exact proportions. Anyway, I heat up the solution to about 50 *C using 3x100W glass tube aquarium heaters and DIY regulator (which was in fact more like a way to learn MSP430 than a real need). For sensing temperature I use LM35 sealed within lab lest-tube with generic type silicone sealant.Etching takes about 15 minutes for 1oz copper and around 30-40 minutes for 2oz. I'm using a bit stronger solution than recommended, but It's hard to give exact content %.This way I'm reliably getting 8 mils tracks with 9 mils clearance.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 13, 2012, 01:01:26 am
content: instead of iron, you can use paper laminator to heat transfer the pcb. and my samsung clp310 toner is not good enough, not thick.

author: steve_w
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 14, 2012, 12:55:20 am
content: Poorchave,Can you post some pictures? would be nice to see how yours turned out.Good info here, I love it.regardsSteve W

author: poorchava
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 16, 2012, 02:58:49 pm
content: I'll post them when I get access to my home PC. I assue you want photos of pcb's, not of the 'manufacturing' rig?

author: steve_w
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 16, 2012, 11:43:18 pm
content: Yeah, the boards, I am about to make some boards for the first time and am nervous about the process. I thought it would be easy, but from the posts I see I will have to be diligent to get good results.regardsSW

author: Barryg41
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2012, 12:34:53 am
content: I have a HP 1312 MFP Laser printer. I use oem cartrigages only. This will make a big difference on how your toner melts again. Other brands melt at different temps. I also use hp presentation paper. You have to use HP Toolbox to set the toner high. This has worked for me on the printing part.The transfer part, I have a GBC Inspire laminator that only puts out 175f. So I make passes till the pcb is at 175f and then 5 more passes. Rotating 90 degrees every pass. Then I put the pcb in water for no less than 5 minutes. The paper just lifts off with the toner staying on the pcb. pulling slowly!Cleaning, I found that isopropyl alcohol is the best way to clean your pcb after you pass 600 grit paper over the pcb. I had issues with toner sticking to the pcb after using acetone. But you must make sure that it is clean of oil and finger prints.Etching, muriatic acid and hydrogen peroxide is the chemical mixture I use. 2 to 1, H2O2 to HCI room temp and your done in less than three minutes. Using a sponge brush helps speed up the process. This process is fast, so that you don't have etching under the toner on the copper traces.I am still working on the process but so far this is working for me right now.Hope this helps!

author: kaz911
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2012, 08:44:08 am
content: Quote from: poorchava on April 12, 2012, 03:19:10 pmnot for the PCB Fab in a Box paper. I think for the "normal" HP gloss you need higher temperatures. I have done 11 mil tracks on my board and everything worked out of the box. It takes some getting used to though. And the PCB Fab in a Box instructions are not always "correct" and does not give many recommendations on printers that work. Example - the G65 laminator - PCBFab says let it heat up for at least 30 min before using. I say - after about 5-7 min it is at its peak temperature - and from there it goes downhill with the temperature. My guess is components get hot and that offsets the thermostat a bit. But I wasted a lot of time finding out (never trust the written instructions.. they are only guide lines :-)And for me - to much heat gives bleeding tracks - both on PCBFab paper and HP gloss paper. They might still work at 8 mil - but I like sharp edges :-)