XSCOPE____xmega-xminilab     oscilloscope     cheap small not as good as Rigol   - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: ez24
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 04, 2015, 06:36:52 pm
content: Hi[url=http://www.gabotronics.com/development-boards/xmega-xminilab.htm]http://www.gabotronics.com/development-boards/xmega-xminilab.htmI am looking for a scope and here are my specs (lets stay within them):- Under $100- Good documentation- No batteries and no AC (to be powered by a laptop ps)- No used equipmentI am looking for a scope that meets the above specs that can be used as a training tool at the high school level in a poor school system (ie one that cannot afford Rigol scopes). I have looked at many many scopes and maybe there is something better but so far I have not found any with something that is VERY important:[url=http://www.gabotronics.com/download/xscopes/xscopes-manual.pdf]http://www.gabotronics.com/download/xscopes/xscopes-manual.pdfA good manual. This is 44 pages and reads like a text book, ie a training guide.Interestingly this started as a Kickstarter project. It is sold and supported out of Florida. I guess by a one man shop.It has been on the market for many years since the KS. It is available on Amazon.So if I use this scope I do not have to write a manual. This is critical, I do not have the ability to write training manuals.My question is : has anyone used one of these (there are two models) using the manual?Is there anyone interested in testing one (via going through the manual) if I buy them one and they furnish me with notes? I would like someone to go through the manual page by page and go through the lessons and make notes on the manual. I want the manual to be correct. ie beta test the manualEdit - this is to teach conceptsthanks

author: Guni
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 04, 2015, 08:25:07 pm
content: It's a toy. Documentation is not a point because it's for nothing.2 Analog InputsMaximum Sampling rate: 2MSPSAnalog Bandwidth: 200kHzBetter to buy used analog scope for few $

author: electr_peter
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 04, 2015, 08:51:21 pm
content: XMEGA Xprotolab is very (!) small (too small, in fact, for some people) and cheap. It has simple signal generator, barebone protocol analyser and 2 channels. Granted, overall characteristics is toy like, but it has PC SW controlling all the functions (much easier to control via USB SW than with buttons) and can be used in low frequency environment or to show concepts.To compare Rigol (or any other DSO or CRO) to XSCOPE series is to compare real car to 1:43 car model.

author: ez24
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 04, 2015, 09:54:36 pm
content: QuoteAren't there educational toys? I will call it an educational device.If it can do what the docs says then, in my opinion, it is a good educational device.Quote- does not meet the specs ie no AC (besides too heavy) Also I should have spec'd "no used equipment"XMEGA Xprotolab is very (!) small (too small, in fact, for some people) and cheap. It has simple signal generator, barebone protocol analyser and 2 channels. Granted, overall characteristics is toy like, but it has PC SW controlling all the functions (much easier to control via USB SW than with buttons) and can be used in low frequency environment or to show concepts.I am going to assume young students will have better eyes than I do. I am glad it has USB SW ability but I cannot assume the students have a computer (this is meant for 3rd world countries). "show concepts" good language, this is what it is for. It is to learn oscilloscope concepts. I will edit the original post.Quote- Rigol does not meet the specs - over $100 and they are AC

author: pascal_sweden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 04, 2015, 10:00:47 pm
content: Students should learn how to use actual measurement gear, and they should not learn how to use toys.Rigol is used in many universities and engineering colleges, and provides the best value for money.Students who have learned to work with a Rigol scope, can easily use other scopes later on, even the professional scopes from Agilent or Tektronix.Students who have learned to use a toy, will regret that they didn't get class on an actual scope.They will not bother about "no batteries" and "no AC". They want to get familiar with the real stuff.Can you elaborate on "poor school" system and actual country?

author: all_repair
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 04, 2015, 10:04:34 pm
content: It is important to show and teach what is a real scope, and the best way is with a real scope. It is what the industries going to demand from the students. otherwise, you can use sound card scope or vurtual scope to achieve qhat you want.

author: rdl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 04, 2015, 10:14:30 pm
content: Contact Digilent and see what they can do for you. If what they say on their web site is true, you should be able to buy their Analog Discovery for the student/educator price of $99/$149. That's not exactly in your price range but it meets all other requirements and is much more than a simple oscilloscope. It's designed for the educational market and they have available a (free) "complete university course featuring lots of hands-on design".https://www.digilentinc.com/

author: ez24
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 04, 2015, 10:37:27 pm
content: Quote3rd world high schools where I cannot guarantee they have a computer (not for this use). This is to teach concepts. Not for college level. My goal is to get them some kind of scope. They will not have access to real stuff (if nothing else I would expect real stuff to get stolen)QuoteI have thought about this but I cannot furnish laptops to them and I think too advance. I would include information on it along with a suggestion they use it for further studies.All concepts would have to be taught on circuits less than 200k (another challenge)

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 04, 2015, 11:34:33 pm
content: Quote from: ez24 on May 04, 2015, 06:36:52 pmNo, it's not, and no, it doesn't. It's little more than a feature list / quick start guide with almost no educational/training content. Minimal explanation of features, few examples - all of which are of the "do this and this and it shows this" variety, with little explanation of what you're actually doing or looking at - and what little there is is all heavily biassed towards the limited and somewhat peculiar controls, UI, & capabilities of that specific device.Quote from: ez24 on May 04, 2015, 06:36:52 pmThen you would be better off adapting some of the excellent & freely-available training materials fromTek,HP,Alan w2aew, etc. to suit whatever device you choose.Quote from: ez24 on May 04, 2015, 06:36:52 pmAnyone doing this to get it up to a standard where it's actually teaching concepts - rather than 'hook it up this way, push these buttons, it looks like this, and here's a quick explanation why' - would either be effectively writing a training package from scratch, or cribbing heavily from sources like those I linked above.

author: Skimask
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2015, 05:43:41 am
content: I've got an Xprotolab portable. Love it. The thing is practically indispensable for quick-and-dirty measurements, a quick signal gen, quick multi-channel logic level signal watching, etc. Cheap, battery powered, light weight, fits in a camera bag. Can't beat it for what it is.And yes, when I do need more capability, I head over to the real tools, Tek 'scope, Spec An, whatever needs to be used.Face facts, for the majority of your average hobbyist work, a guy doesn't need 4 channels @ 1Ghz @ 1GSps @ 1 MB memory depth.

author: ez24
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2015, 07:03:28 am
content: Quotethank you- I will stop hitting my head -I found out someone on this site maybe using this for his online electronics courses

author: Pinkus
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2015, 10:13:57 am
content: Sorry guys but these scopes are toys in my eyes.Of course they are better than nothing, but believe me: soon! you will buy arealscope and then you will regret that you did not save your money.Don't get me wrong, they are OK as 2nd (emergency) scope for travelling or a quick check of a PCB at a friends house but I would not quote them a 'measurement tool'. You will always need a real scope, so go for one first.There is no need to purchase multi-thousand $$ device: a Rigol DS1054Z / DS1074Z is today the best value for money entry scope - and you can h*ck it. With this you will be happy for many years... and if you have a bit more money available or if you are advanced in electronics, go for the Rigol DS2000 series.Edit: I am not connected with Rigol. SomenewerOwon, Siglent etc. devices might be also OK - just my experience in the past with Owon, Tekway/Hantek devices was, that they did not deliver what I expected and the Rigols I purchased always did.

author: ez24
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2015, 05:08:46 pm
content: QuoteThis is my point - it is either Nothing or XminilabSo I am comparing Nothing with the Xminilab, I guess I should have started this way

author: Muxr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2015, 05:57:46 pm
content: Quote from: ez24 on May 05, 2015, 05:08:46 pmI think point people are trying to make is that for 310 additional dollars you can actually get a nice scope. And if you want a scope you should save your pennies and get a scope, and not waste money on something that's not going to scratch that itch.Of course if you don't care about owning a scope and want something small to play around with then get it.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2015, 06:15:27 pm
content: Quote from: ez24 on May 05, 2015, 05:08:46 pmAll right, so you don't actually want comments or advice regarding the Xminilab hardware -- fair enough, point taken. In your original post, you did seem to ask for comments and advice on the Xminilab's user manual. But when Felix The Cat commented on that, you started banging your head. Hence, I am lost: What do you expect from us?

author: Skimask
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2015, 03:20:52 am
content: QuoteNope, no online courses or anything like that. Just daily playing around and developing.

author: ez24
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2015, 04:06:34 am
content: I ordered a Rigol DS1054Z today for $375.06 from Tequipment (with eevblog discount - thanks) to test the Xminilab.Remember the Rigol does not meet my spec of <100 so I still have to get the XminilabI think this subject has gone off course and when I start testing the Xminilab, I will continue with more specific questions. At least by owning a Rigol people will stop telling me to get one ha ha ha

author: smgvbest
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 06, 2015, 05:03:18 am
content: OP.I understand you're trying to teach via use of an oscilloscope in an educational system with very limited funds.Let me ask this. You state this is to teach concepts. Can you explain what concepts you want to teach?is it circuit concepts? is it oscilloscope use concepts? perhaps if we understand the what you want to achieve we can answer you're question better.

author: ez24
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2015, 05:37:37 am
content: QuoteCircuits concepts using oscilloscope concepts - both at the beginning basic level and at the same timeI think it would be cool for a student see a pwm signal that is used to dim an LED or motor with an arduino. And see the signal change (on the scope) with changes to the LED or motor (this is just one example)thanks

author: hayatepilot
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2015, 06:40:14 am
content: @ ez24Would one of these MP3-style pocket oscilloscope be a suitable option?Something like this:http://www.amazon.com/SainSmart-Upgraded-Pocket-Sized-Handheld-Oscilloscope/dp/B004Y3QHZ6It would meet every of your requirements and is even cheaper than the xminilab with better performance, built in battery, way better screen ect. It even comes with a probe!Of course it still looses even to the most basic "real" Scope (CRO or DSO).Greetings

author: pascal_sweden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2015, 01:22:51 pm
content: What about the Red Pitaya?http://redpitaya.com/

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2015, 02:52:41 pm
content: Quote from: pascal_sweden on May 06, 2015, 01:22:51 pmNeeds a PC to operate, which was undesirable due to budget constraints, if I recall correctly.

author: ion54
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2015, 04:21:50 pm
content: OP,The lowest cost might be:http://www.amazon.com/XMEGA-Xprotolab-Plug--breadboard-Oscilloscope/dp/B00HWZS7R4/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&qid=1430928169&sr=8-5&keywords=xminilabIf you are willing to do the assembly yourself, then you can go for even lower price (get two devices for the price of one):http://www.gabotronics.com/electronic-kits-modules/kit-to-build-xprotolab.htm.For low cost concept teaching it will be adequate and you might not need scope probes as it plugs into a bread board from which gets the power. Getting the signal to the input, at the frequencies you can measure, it is feasible using jumper wires.I wish you good luck

author: Howardlong
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2015, 04:26:43 pm
content: Quote from: ebastler on May 06, 2015, 02:52:41 pmI may be living under a rock, bit don't you need a PC of some sort to program an Arduino?Also from the OP in this thread:Quote

author: ez24
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2015, 06:45:27 pm
content: QuoteI came across this once and it does NOT meet the spec of "no battery". But I am going to re-look at this and see if I can remove the battery or get them without the battery. I could offer to sell one with a battery as an option if the student likes the one that is built into the chassis.It will run on an external power source.I like that it comes with a probe.So now I have 2 to look at - thanks

author: ez24
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2015, 06:51:25 pm
content: QuoteMartin on YT says this costs $470 which is outside of my budgetInteresting devicethanks anyway

author: ez24
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2015, 06:59:07 pm
content: QuoteThis is on my radar and I should have pointed this out.I want to use a Xminilab (the assembled one and without case) to build into a learning lab and an advance lesson would be to build one of the above. He has two kits, the small Xprotolab (.97 inch) and the Xminilab (about 2 inches). I want to start with the 2 inch because I am old and have bad eyes. I am going to keep all models open as optionsSo the assembled Xminilab could be used to test a Xprotolab assembled by a student. This re-focuses me.thanks

author: ez24
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2015, 07:03:14 pm
content: QuoteOh crap - is there anyway I can delete this whole topic and go back to the drawing board?

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2015, 09:53:13 pm
content: If we are reaching, then a Cypress Pioneer $25 and an elecfreaks LCD shield $22 would do but you still need probes, but how fun would it be to do the other projects:http://www.element14.com/community/thread/24287/l/psoc-4-pioneer-kit-community-project17--2-channel-oscope-with-graphicslcdhttp://www.element14.com/community/thread/23736/l/100-projects-in-100-daysBut of course you'll need to write the manual or make a better scope program if you need to.

author: pascal_sweden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2015, 10:04:48 pm
content: What about a 60 USD pocket oscilloscope with color display and touch panel?http://www.jyetech.com/Products/LcdScope/e112.phpYou can buy the device on AliExpress:http://www.aliexpress.com/store/product/Free-shipping-DSO112-touch-screen-oscilloscope-pocket-oscilloscope-micro-mini-handheld-digital-ScopeMeter/927391_1916885616.html

author: ez24
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 07, 2015, 12:50:01 am
content: thishttp://www.aliexpress.com/store/product/Free-shipping-DSO112-touch-screen-oscilloscope-pocket-oscilloscope-micro-mini-handheld-digital-ScopeMeter/927391_1916885616.htmldoes not meet one of my specs (no battery) BUT this looks so interestingI am going to get one and see if I can remove the batterythanks(I am starting to recover from the arduino/computer message - boy was that a slap ha ha ha - a few beers helped)

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 07, 2015, 04:34:21 am
content: Quote from: Pinkus on May 05, 2015, 10:13:57 amDS1054Z is a few hundred bucks! It appears to be well over their budget.Note what the guy said (I added the bold):Quote from: ez24 on May 04, 2015, 10:37:27 pm

author: pascal_sweden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 07, 2015, 08:18:42 am
content: Quote from: ez24 on May 07, 2015, 12:50:01 amYou can order it without battery, if you look into the product number section.So I believe that you can operate it without battery, and just power it with USB.Otherwise they would not offer two product versions, one with battery and one without battery.11201 DSO112 (battery included)11202 DSO112 (No battery)Battery / USB-powered (not include battery)So when ordering, please select the one without battery.This one on Ebay has no battery:http://www.benl.ebay.be/itm/SO112-Color-Touch-Screen-Mini-Digital-Oscilloscope-Pocket-2Mhz-RS232-RS485-I2C-/281669031186?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4194c85512Please consider other sellers on AliExpress, as you can get it already at 48 USD from some sellers.http://www.aliexpress.com/w/wholesale-dso112.html?initiative_id=SB_20150507003311&site=glo&groupsort=1&SortType=price_asc&shipCountry=no&SearchText=dso112I am not sure if these units on AliExpress can be ordered without battery though.Better check with them first.Note that when you use it with USB, that it no longer is a floating scope, as the USB connection provides the ground connection, and makes your negative ground.So if you really want to use it as a floating scope, and without an external differential probe, you have to use the one with built-in battery, and remove the USB cable.Alternatively, you can use an isolated USB interface to remove the ground connection from the USB interface.Can you provide feedback on the forum after you receive it?I am very keen on ordering one too, but can wait until your feedback

author: bitwelder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 07, 2015, 05:03:52 pm
content: Quote from: pascal_sweden on May 07, 2015, 08:18:42 amI suppose if you connect the DSO to a 2-prong plug USB charger, the 'scope' will still have floating negative.

author: pascal_sweden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 08, 2015, 09:28:48 am
content: Quote from: ez24 on May 07, 2015, 12:50:01 amWhen are you going to order the DSO112? Or are you too busy now testing your new DS1054Z? =)

author: pascal_sweden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 11, 2015, 01:36:29 am
content: What is the maximum input voltage on the DSO112? I could not find that information on their website. Is that described in the user manual?

author: ez24
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 11, 2015, 02:03:09 am
content: QuoteFrom web page on the DSO112:Maximum input voltage: 50Vpk (100Vpp)QuoteThe DS1054Z is scheduled for delivery next Thur, the DSO112 has not even shipped (ordered 2 days ago), so I think it will be awhile. That is what I get for ordering the cheapest one. But for $48 if it can do anything I will be happy.

author: pascal_sweden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 15, 2015, 09:36:47 am
content: I look forward to your review video about the DSO112

author: ez24
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2015, 07:29:23 pm
content: HiI received my DSO112 and it is much better than I expected.I think it is a useful tool (used within specs) and not a toy. Here is the "manual" that came with it. The English is good.http://www.jyetech.com/Products/LcdScope/UserManual_112.pdfI am working on making a video but it has been years since I made a video so I have to get some software and learn everything from scratch including getting on YT.The DSO112 has a square wave function generator from 1 Hz to 1 MHZ (7 steps), but at the ends the square wave falls apart.It has horz times of 1 us to 50 sec (24 steps)Vert from 5 mv to 20V in 12 stepsIt triggers except at the three lowest time bases (documented) , but it has Hold that works on all rangesIt has cursors (vert for Vpp and Hor for time and freq) Yes it has a freq counter using the horz cursors. Using the cursors is the hardest thing using this scope. It takes some practice to get the cursor and move it.- It is a working scope- It is a function generator- It is a freq counterSome of the advance features: firmware update and CSV export, look too difficult for me. My firmware version is higher than the one on their website.I have looked at all the built in functions and used it with a Wavetek and a Rigol and so far it looks good. At the extreme ends is where it fall off (at 1 Hz and 2 MHz using the Wavetek). I am not sure it can meet the 2 MHz specs (because I am a newbie and I do not know how to test specs)This gets good reviews on Amazon and it seems popular with musicians which I think this is perfect. Amazon sells it with a battery, ebay no battery, and Aliexpress both ways. The only way out of Asia with a battery is through Singapore. The Singapore ones run about $48 and the Amazon $58. I got the one from Asia but if I had to do it over, I would get the Amazon one so I could leave feedback.http://www.amazon.com/Pocket-oscilloscope-color-display-battery/dp/B00LYM9XFQ/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1432668389&sr=8-1&keywords=dso112I will start a new post with pictures later.This would NOT be suitable to work on the Mars mission BUT it would be suitable to take along to Mars as an emergency tool. This can fit in a shirt pocket, and with velcro it can be strapped to the wrist. Also I think this is useful working inside mains powered equipment using a 10x probe. Sure is cheaper than an isolation transformer or diff probes.Also with proper headgear, this could be mounted in front of your eyes like Google Glasses. This would look cool in a lab. Oh yeah the screen is very clear and sharp.I am working on 3 things for the video - 1. using the built in waveforms 2. waveforms from my Wavetek 3. look at ripple in buck conveterstill laterRoger

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2015, 09:01:45 pm
content: Looks like a fun toy...2MHz and 2.5M samples/second is a bit on the slow side, but it looks fun.

author: Obin
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2015, 06:47:40 am
content: This thread and your demands have made me curious. Are you in somekind of teaching program maybe?