Energy Vault ? pros and cons - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: sparkzap
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2019, 04:30:56 pm
content: hello, i would like to discuss the pros and cons of this concept.i feel this isn't a good implementation of the idea, but then again i could be missing something.website:https://energyvault.com/Energy Vault INTRO:some scale test video:https://youtu.be/mmrwdTGZxGkredit (some input from EnergyVaultSA) AMAhttps://www.reddit.com/r/energy/comments/9uylim/can_these_35ton_bricks_solve_renewable_energys/CONS: (please challenge if you think its not a CON)-maintenance, gearing failure, cables, connecting points, etc.-power gen. reduced as tower disassembles (less drop distance)-use of concrete = more co2 gen.-noise from moving parts and landing blocks-loss in motor starts\stops (efficiency)-area needed for renewables. for power during stacking\storing time 35mwh?-collapse risk? (30 stories high)-TBA (please suggest CONS)

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2019, 04:32:43 pm
content: This has already been discussed to death in another thread.

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2019, 04:39:10 pm
content: Welcome to the forum.Yes, this has already been discussed at length here...https://www.eevblog.com/forum/dodgy-technology/energy-storage-by-moving-concrete-blocks/(Hint: It ended up being put in the 'Dodgy Technology' section)

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2019, 10:57:32 pm
content: Quote from: BrianHG on August 05, 2019, 10:42:15 pmThe horrid clickbait fonts told me it's Thunderf@rt without clicking.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 05, 2019, 11:51:47 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on August 05, 2019, 10:57:32 pmSo what's your problem, you think he did a bad job debunking it?

author: Cyberdragon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2019, 02:42:30 am
content: It's also rather odd. I'm sure he reads this forum and gets ideas from it, so why did he do a video now when the topic died out and just happened to be reposted by someone.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 06, 2019, 02:55:05 am
content: Quote from: Cyberdragon on August 06, 2019, 02:42:30 amAFAIK Thunderf00t does not read this forum and is certainly not a registered user.When I've mentioned my forum to him before he seemed to have no idea it existed, which is not surprising, he's not an engineer.What happens is people tweet and email him these dodgy campaigns and he puts them on a list and eventually gets around to them weeks or months later.

author: sparkzap
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2019, 03:52:51 am
content: awesome! just what i was looking for. new to forum

author: BrianHG
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2019, 03:59:53 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on August 05, 2019, 11:51:47 pmExcept for the odd few Thunderf00t's outtakes, he totally decimated the Energy Vault.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 06, 2019, 04:03:10 am
content: Quote from: sparkzap on August 06, 2019, 03:52:51 amWelcome, we do lots of fun debunking here!

author: sparkzap
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2019, 04:18:56 am
content: i would like to talk about the more complex electronics side to this, power generation say compared to a hydro setupfor example bust how much efficiency is lost by stopping and starting generationor how far and what speed the block drops atand how the charge or build power usage would compare.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2019, 08:07:36 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on August 05, 2019, 11:51:47 pmI'm not keen on Thunderf00t's channel. It almost exclusively consists of debunking, which caters to the controversy hungry bunch. The overly indignant tone and the clickbaity thumbnails WITH CAPS in ALL KINDS of STRANGE PLACES don't improve the situation. It represents the less pleasant sensation driven side of Youtube, although I readily concede the better part of a million people have a different view on this.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2019, 01:14:47 pm
content: QuoteYes. He (several times) misses the point that pumped storage is great where you have hills and lakes but sod-all use elsewhere. The blurb for this thing isn't quiet on that front, so he is being disingenuous by not just ignoring it but repeatedly pretending it doesn't exist.Next, a vast proportion of the debunk relies on there being no actual finished product but lots of animation. How else does one show what stuffcouldbe like before it's made? Or is it the case that no-one is allowed to explain anything unless they have a full-scale production rig to show off? I would treat any such animation as a guide, not a de facto planning application. Th final product would not doubt be quite different. Similarly, I took the positioning next to wind turbines as merely a visual reminder that this is all 'green' or non-fossil fuel, not that they would really want to build on top of a windy hill.Next, he seems to have a downer on anything that isn't as efficient as possible. The solar panels on a roof that may be 30% less efficient than theoretical is a good illustration. Surely just getting something is better than nothing at all? I have a similar problem here: nowhere I can put panels catch the sun all day, so clearly I shouldn't bother to reap any benefit at all if I can't get the max, according to him.So, if the efficiency drops off as you level the building, so what? The actual point at which it stops being worth moving blocks is arbitrary and depends on design. It's an obvious thing (laying out vs stacking) and I would assume it would depend on where this is sited - is there room to lay them out or does it need to be constained? Who knows until somewhere to put one is found? But for the purposes of illustrative animation, you don't want to overload it with detail. The principle is enough for the passing public.There are some valid points he notes (like how to drop 100m on the end of a cable to exactly the right place), but they are lost in the noise of his almost-trolling.That dropping, though. My thought is why not have an actual building and use a lift shaft equivalent to store energy on-site? OK, it wouldn't be that much but every little helps and gotta be more than a couple of car batteries.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2019, 03:54:13 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on August 06, 2019, 08:07:36 amWell, it happens to be on the "sane" side of things, but yes it kind of looks pretty much like videos from the other, darker side of promoting dodgy stuff, and probably for similar reasons.And I agree with dunkemhigh about Thunderf00t missing the whole point of "pumped storage" in general.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2019, 04:04:58 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on August 06, 2019, 03:54:13 pmThe issue is that the content has effectively been rendered irrelevant by the form it's presented in. Everything is aimed at dramatic effect rather than any kind of objective fact finding. The videos are blatantly catering to an audience which apparently requires the sensational format to draw or retain interest, resulting in some kind of unpleasant superlative format.

author: sparkzap
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2019, 04:08:34 pm
content: dude do you even watch his videos? a large majority are science based as well as an entire channel.https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCUrdmVprSahXaPKqr04VfgQif your focus is fonts and colors i mean what are you really there to watch? content or ?when you debunk or bust something there is no need top sugar coat the point.do you have a youtube channel?/quote]I'm not keen on Thunderf00t's channel. It almost exclusively consists of debunking, which caters to the controversy hungry bunch. The overly indignant tone and the clickbaity thumbnails WITH CAPS in ALL KINDS of STRANGE PLACES don't improve the situation. It represents the less pleasant sensation driven side of Youtube, although I readily concede the better part of a million people have a different view on this.

author: sparkzap
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2019, 04:10:22 pm
content: im sure he reads some posts and most defiantly watches some of your video daveQuote from: EEVblog on August 06, 2019, 02:55:05 am

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2019, 04:13:54 pm
content: Quote from: dunkemhigh on August 06, 2019, 01:14:47 pmI agree with what you say, but I think he mostly did a bad job for the reason that most of his videos do a bad job - he seems incapable of toning down his snearing attitude, and just getting on with the job. The start of this video is purely an attack on the PR material. EVERY startup has a pile of PR BS. Its a given, and any reasonable person ignores it. I think he has lost most of his audience before he even gets to the meat of what he has to say.As presented, the concrete block system has many serious issues, and seems ludicrous as a high volume storage scheme. However, I suspect its ability to function in most small spaces, hot, cold or so dry that replacing evaporated water would be a serious problem, means the core idea has some real niche applications - probably when surrounded by a wall to minimise the wind problem.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2019, 04:19:13 pm
content: Quote from: sparkzap on August 06, 2019, 04:08:34 pmNewspaper articles about new discoveries are also science based. If it were just the content spruced up with a bit of drama it might not be so bad, but the science seems to be almost completely subservient to the superlative format. I guess that's how you make a buck on Youtube, but it's not for me and definitely not synonymous with science content. Science derived entertainment, perhaps. I agree with coppice. Just watch the recent astrophotography video and you'll notice how different the tone in that one is.

author: sparkzap
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2019, 04:19:36 pm
content: if not hydro what other similar power generation can you compare a energy vault to, (that has a solid history and data behind it?)the bottom line is its a stupid idea no matter where its implemented. and hydo is a similar gravity fed concept to put it up against.the focus should be on energy management and efficiency, this would lower power demands and remove the need to build rubbish like this,the sooner individual home level power storage is a thing, it will solve so many issues because the onus of waste lands on the individual.

author: sparkzap
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2019, 04:26:27 pm
content: i can tell by your comments you dont watch his videos. so i cant really take what your saying seriously.if you did watch you would see how many science orientated videos he also does, the busted videos started as a side project. (mostly with religion)and ye...no sh*t he need to attract an audience... because thats how his pays his bills and his time for making content.do you have a youtube channel supporting your livelihood to make comparisons? would like to see it?Quote from: Mr. Scram on August 06, 2019, 04:19:13 pm

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2019, 04:38:49 pm
content: QuoteYou are either trolling or thinking uncritically.QuoteWe've gone on about why this is not a competitor to hydro but a complement.QuoteEfficiency would be good, but it's not the be-all that you make out. Remember that this is there not to feed in power that could otherwise be used but to storeexcesspower that would otherwise be wasted. As such, if its efficiency was 5% it would still be better than no store at all (ignoring cost of building/maintenance vs funds from selling the stored power).QuoteTypically, bulk tends to be cheaper. It would be more expensive and less efficient for everyone to have their own private system.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2019, 03:29:57 pm
content: Quote from: sparkzap on August 06, 2019, 04:26:27 pmPlease don't speculate about what I do or don't watch when you obviously don't know. Please refrain from ad hominem fallacies too. I already conceded nearly a million people don't agree with me so I guess I can suffer sparkzap added to the pile.How it started isn't quite relevant either as it's like that now and has been for a while.

author: sparkzap
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2019, 07:24:09 am
content: yes... youtube is like that now. your making it out to be only thunderfoot...example: EEVblog #1236 - German Solar Freakin' Roadways!dont like it make your own or switch off.. good luckQuote from: Mr. Scram on August 07, 2019, 03:29:57 pm

author: sparkzap
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2019, 07:27:37 am
content: cool story bro.... do you have any numbers to back that all up???please prove me wrong, its the whole point of this post. i am waiting.show me a reliable efficient gravity power generation system comparable to hydo or similar with numbers to back it...Quote from: dunkemhigh on August 06, 2019, 04:38:49 pm

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2019, 07:50:14 am
content: Quote from: sparkzap on August 08, 2019, 07:24:09 amBy your own logic Thunderf00t can't comment on solar roadways because he hasn't built any himself. Logic fallacies don't help the discussion. Switching off has been the preferred option but it still means dealing with the videos as they're posted outside of his own channel. I don't really care for the Eevblog solar roadway videos either, correct. Although the degree to which the videos sacrifice content for form isn't quite comparable.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2019, 11:25:53 am
content: Sparkzap, any chance you can switch out of usenet mode and stop bottom-quoting entire threads? Or is it a deliberate thing to make engaging with you even more painful?

author: sparkzap
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2019, 04:25:26 am
content: like a tissue?or you have something worth reading? did not address ONE response. #change_topic #sookQuote from: dunkemhigh on August 08, 2019, 11:25:53 am

author: sparkzap
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2019, 04:29:01 am
content: yet you were the first to respond to this post with nothing helpful. how about not commenting if your not going to keep on topic.Quote from: Mr. Scram on August 08, 2019, 07:50:14 am

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 09, 2019, 05:22:44 am
content: Quote from: dunkemhigh on August 06, 2019, 01:14:47 pmYou don't have to build Solar Roadways to calculate how it's going to perform.You don't have to build Batteriser to calculate how it's going to perform.You don't have to build uBeam to calculate how it's going to perform.You don't have to build Fonuts to calculate how it's going to perform.I'm sure you are getting the picture...QuoteBecause efficiency is kinda important when you are trying to design a global scale energy product to solve the worlds energy problems.Quote

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 09, 2019, 05:25:21 am
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on August 06, 2019, 04:04:58 pmThe fact that you don't like them does make them "irrelevant". His videos reach and educate hundreds of thousands of people, so you are demonstrably wrong.QuoteYou must be new to Youtube...It's an "attention economy", and as such every Youtube content creator has to try and win the attention and view time of people in a market that has over half a million hours of video content uploaded every single day.Even our most die-hard fans only have limited hours in the day to watch video, so it's important our video thumbnails, titles and first few minutes of a video are the most appealing possible. I'm sick of people calling it "clickbait" etc, most people have no clue about being a Youtuber and being able to cater to an existing audience let alone attract new ones.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 09, 2019, 05:34:27 am
content: Quote from: coppice on August 06, 2019, 04:13:54 pmIn your opinion. You speak for no one else. In fact you are demonstrably wrong because his channel is continuing to grow and he is reaching more and more people and has the thumbs ratio to prove effectiveness.He wouldn't be doing that if he wasdoing a bad job.Don't extend your dislike of his content to it's effectiveness, that's a mistake.QuoteAgain you are demonstrably wrong, his channel and views and enagagement continue to grow.

author: TheNewLab
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2019, 07:23:53 am
content: Back to OP and the "castle builder" energy storage machine. Get it "castle?" in the...on the... LOLDon Sadoway has been talking for years how to build L-S battery storage with Chemistry in stationary units. One example he show a prototype where 20 could be fit into a shipping container, shipped and located anywhere on earth (on dry land..) He explains his chemical engineering background and the specific chemistry needed. According to him. a 30 year life would be easy,several Aussie power companies seem to be using large arrays of Tesla Power walls. Lockheed Martin is/has? already gotten into the game. And one YTuber says China has or is building a Vanadium type of LS- long life battery."Large-scale battery storage (renewable energy storage)Western power YT AU-https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zUJvjTahfpI-Don Sadoway one hour talk at Stanford Energy(2016)-https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pDxegcZqx_8-Lockheed Martin's "Gridstar"-https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tqrVj_G4Bgc-Gannawarra LS battery in AUYT channel Australian Renewable Energy Agency-https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEUiqYu28OA-May 2019 -China building vanadium redox flow batteries? Seeker channel claims this-https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qsKUVQtAhA-TED Archive re-posted Feb 2017 (why don't need breakthrough tech)-https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oo8iEL6SqgI-"What I see as the great obstacle, is utility companies preventing quicker change because they want to keep their monopolies. Like stay in business. Except the K-brothers, who are fanatical to prevent progress, the oil and outo want to control the changeover for the same reason. To stay in business and remain big.I hope this does not kill this thread... I am not an authority. What chemistry I know is in the darkroom, with that ancient acetate laden material called film.Regarding hydro hills, How about using oil? thick type so it would evaporate? less as easily as water??or beer tanks? and the energy can be sent directly the the human body?

author: Kleinstein
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2019, 07:43:21 am
content: Quote from: sparkzap on August 06, 2019, 04:19:36 pmHydro storage is good if there is a suitable mountain. Other methods for energy storage are batteries of different types (mainly for short term), compressed air in underground caverns (especially if combined with a gas power station), flywheels (very short term), hydrogen generation (mainly long term) and thermal storage in solar-thermal systems (short term).Because of the relatively high cost, the gravity storage in concrete blocks would be more competing with shorter time systems like batteries. Still I don't think it is a good idea.Besides real storage there is also flexible generation (e.g. from biomass, hydro) and flexible energy use, e.g. in refrigeration, air compression or some chemical plants, that can supplement storage, especially the shorter time scale part.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2019, 10:32:44 am
content: QuoteI think it's a mistake to assume anything will fail because those did - treat it on its own merits. In some ways, this is like noticing everyone else seems to have the same car you've just bought. You don't notice the many more that are different. Do you want I should list every product that started with a presentation of an idea instead of a production unit yet still became successful?And you'll note that I said he did have some valid points, but they were lost in the noise of the subjective stuff.QuoteThat shows he is doing well in YouTube. Says nothing about how well or not he debunks stuff, just that he will do whatever it takes to get eyeballs. I like my science calm and factual.QuoteJust what is his job? Is it making a fortune on YouTube? It does look like the debunks are a means to an end.QuoteWell, again, effective at what exactly? You've said he is good at exploiting the YouTube attention-grabbing economy. No doubt about that at all. I think the mistake is assuming that lots of eyeballs means the science message is getting through, though. If it were, perhaps he wouldn't need the shouty stuff. Do TED talks do that? Do they figure well on YouTube?

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2019, 10:56:38 am
content: QuoteFrankly, I can't be arsed. If I were to engage with you and your current attitude, it would be to wind you up.

author: sparkzap
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2019, 02:30:26 pm
content: LOL any more excuses?Quote from: dunkemhigh on August 09, 2019, 10:56:38 am

author: sparkzap
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2019, 02:31:47 pm
content: so........ back to the topic?

author: sparkzap
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2019, 02:34:22 pm
content: this ship has a 4.1 Mwh battery in a few shipping containers.Quote from: TheNewLab on August 09, 2019, 07:23:53 am

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2019, 02:42:01 pm
content: QuotePertinent to this thread are a couple of things he said:4'19": And, by the way, do not speak to the incumbents4'21": Disregard the conventional wisdom4'23": You're not going to get to brilliant radical innovations if4'27": you consult with incumbents.Seems to have worked for him.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2019, 02:42:19 pm
content: Quote from: sparkzap on August 09, 2019, 04:29:01 amLike how you registered your account only to start this thread, while jumping on anyone who sees things differently? At this point it wouldn't surprise me if this were a shill account of one of the regulars.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 09, 2019, 03:37:31 pm
content: Quote from: dunkemhigh on August 09, 2019, 10:32:44 amDo you not notice you're on anengineeringforum?In case you haven't forgotten, engineers can calculate the practicality of an idea, it's one of our skills. And for some things it's REAL easy to do. Unless you are, as Carl Sagan put it, so open minded that your brains fall out.QuoteMore than valid points, the concept is impractical.QuoteYour argument was, and I even put it in bold for you, I'll repeat: "I think he has lost most of his audience before he even gets to the meat of what he has to say."You are wrong.QuoteShows how little you know about him. He's a full time research scientist, and a very credible and widely published one.He makes Youtube videos for fun in his spare time.QuoteYouhaveto be good at attention grabbing to be a success on youtube, there isn't a single successful youtuber who is not, but that hasn't got anything to do with it.Theonlymetric available is views and engagement, on his channel, mine, or anyone else's.Is Bill Nye's getting his science message across? Or *insert other popular scientist here*. If so, how do you know?QuotePerhaps, just perhaps, oh, I don't know, he does the "shouty stuff" because he likes doing the shouty stuff and that's his style?Just becauseyoudon't like his style doesn't mean he's doing it for some reason, like because, as you are implying, that it's the only way he can get his message across.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2019, 04:57:57 pm
content: QuoteI don't think that always follows since you don't know how stuff is going to be used, what it's worth to someone, etc. For instance, I can imagine this being comprehensively rubbished just on the grounds that an AAA will do the job:Gravity LIght at IndiegogoNevertheless, I backed it and use it in anger. It fits the job for me despite the obvious impracticalities engineers would say it has.Engineers can say if a design is practical for some cost. They do not infallibly decide what that cost must be.QuoteFair cop. I forgot about the billion flies, etc

author: sparkzap
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 11, 2019, 06:01:21 am
content: are you really comparing a $10 consumer led light to a multi-million dollar 30 story commercial power generating gravity tower???use can use common sense, not complex engineering to compare the two. one is a tinker toy, the other is big and complex!or you can do the maths.... one is a $10 tinker toy. the other is a complex multi-million dollar engineering concept.using common sense or educated calculations can quickly make up a pros \ cons list, without building anything.busted concepts manipulate everyday people to secure funding for concepts that are flawed. scam people with CGI videos and hype. then scrap the idea and use the money to redesign. (the elon musk move)Quote from: dunkemhigh on August 09, 2019, 04:57:57 pm

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 11, 2019, 10:05:20 am
content: WTF? A debunk because it was a successful project? And he didn't even get one - he is pissing in from the sidelines.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 11, 2019, 10:51:25 am
content: Quote from: sparkzap on August 11, 2019, 06:01:21 amYou can turn a scam or flawed idea into a solid career for a decade. uBeam, Orbo, Solar Roadways et.al are all classic examples of this. Good gig if you don't care about the industry humiliation.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 11, 2019, 03:55:31 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on August 11, 2019, 10:51:25 amYes. The start-up economy is probably made of 80% of that or something.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 13, 2019, 11:04:27 am
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on August 11, 2019, 03:55:31 pmThat's being generous

author: mikerj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2019, 06:38:50 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on August 07, 2019, 03:29:57 pmGlad sparkzap said it because he's right on the money. You are either being deliberately dishonest to reinforce a point or you haven't actually watched much of TFs content. He pumps out a huge amount of excellent science content as well as his debunking videos. I enjoyed his older videos addressing toxic ideologies such as feminism that triggered so many delicate flowers, but he does relatively few of these now as it seems he has plenty of thin skinned liberal subscribers that enjoy a bit of faux outrage and pretending to be offended.