Brand new BM869s or used Fluke 287? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: WaveyDipole
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2017, 07:10:02 pm
content: Im considering the purchase of a good calibre DMM. Its primarily for hobby use, but also the occasional repair. I thought I would get myself one high spec meter as a retirement present. My budget is around 220GBP and for a little over that I can get a brand new Brymen297sBM869s with 500000 count in high res mode, or a used Fluke 287 with 50000 count. Both have logging functions but the Fluke cable and software costs as much as a used meter but one can DIY one for the Brymen and use sigrok. Obviously the high res mode of theBM297sBM869s is overkill for hobby use. Fluke has the brand reputation, but the Brymen has better specs. I can't make my mind up!

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2017, 07:16:47 pm
content: Well, they are quite different meters, so you should be able to choose based on what things you want to use it for.IIRC the Fluke 287 has internal logging memory and a graph display to view the results. So that would be useful if you want to leave the meter unattended in some place to record events like brownouts or voltage spikes. The Brymen doesn't have internal logging, only a PC interface option.On the other hand the Fluke has a soft button menu driven interface that can slow down simple measuring jobs. It also has a fairly low contrast LCD. The Brymen has a clean, traditional interface, with the bonus that it remembers your last settings on switch off, so it always switches back on with the same range selections in place. For everyday use this makes the Brymen a winner.

author: retiredcaps
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2017, 07:19:29 pm
content: Quote from: WaveyDipole on July 22, 2017, 07:10:02 pmMy search skills fails to find such a model for Brymen? 297s?

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2017, 07:21:43 pm
content: Quote from: retiredcaps on July 22, 2017, 07:19:29 pmProbably the 867s?

author: WaveyDipole
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2017, 07:25:30 pm
content: Sorry, yes meant the 869s or perhaps optionally the 867s. Have corrected the opening post.Ian you make an interesting and unexpected argument in favour of the Brymen. Usability is important and I'm surprised regarding what you say about both the screen and slowing down the workflow. The Brymen remembering the last option used seems like a nice touch. Of course it is still unproven as to how well it keeps calibration, whereas Flukes are legendary in that respect.BTW, I would also consider a Fluke 289 if the price was right although the Brymen does seem compelling. Do these Flukes have a backlight, and if so, does it provide good illumination?

author: Mark Hennessy
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2017, 08:46:48 pm
content: Knowing that you're not a million miles from me, you'd be welcome to pop in and play with my Fluke 287.Yes, there's a backlight. I don't find the user interface all that bad, although I can sympathise with those who do. I find the older 187/9 slightly harder to drive when you need to get to some of the less-used functions, but either is fine. The viewing angle and contrast of the dot-matrix display of the 287/9 isn't as good as the simpler LCDs.These things eat batteries, especially if you use the backlight.I can't comment on the Brymen as my experience of that brand is limited to the BM235, but if that's indicative of the brand, that's encouraging

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2017, 08:57:44 pm
content: Also, the 297/289 is big. It's like a giant brick. Granted the Brymen 869 is not exactly compact, but my first impression of the 289 whenever I have picked one up is of the size.Another thing about the Fluke 289 is the start up time. It is not "instant on", it takes a second or two to run through the startup sequence and be ready to use.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2017, 09:42:13 pm
content: Some time back I made a video showing the UT181A which is basically a knockoff of the Fluke 289 but with IMO a slightly better UI, faster graphing, faster boot times, rechargeable battery and color. During the video, I make comparisons with the real Fluke 289 and the Brymen BM869s.Personally, for home hobby use I still like the Brymen over anything I have looked at. I've been playing about with a Fluke 189 which is similar to the Fluke 87IV (not to be confused with what I am told is Fluke's gold standard, the 87V). If Fluke was making the 189 with current cert, I would own a brand new one. It's just a good general purpose meter IMO.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2017, 11:00:21 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on July 22, 2017, 08:57:44 pmL-R, EEVBLOG 121GW, BRYMEN BM869s, FLUKE 189, GOSSEN ULTRA, UNI-T UT181AThe 121GW is one of the smaller form factors of the meters I have that support AC+DC. The one I have is actually pretty nice for a pre-production unit. You mentioned not having a need for the Brymen's higher res. Maybe you would have some use for some of the 121GW's features depending on your time frame.

author: Muttley Snickers
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 22, 2017, 11:42:49 pm
content: I still don't understand why the Keysight meters seem to get constantly overlooked in these types of threads, both the U1272A and U1282A are fully featured and capable meters with free software and a free IR/ USB interface with the U1280 series, not to mention great support and a decent warranty. I own and use the Flukes, the Keysights, a Brymen and a host of other meters, the Keysights are certainly worthy of consideration in my book.

author: SkyMaster
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2017, 02:09:16 am
content: Quote from: WaveyDipole on July 22, 2017, 07:10:02 pmYour retirement present should benew.

author: Gandalf_Sr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2017, 02:23:28 am
content: A bunch of people (myself included) have bought the Agilent U1252B from eBayhttp://www.ebay.com/itm/Agilent-U1252b-Digital-Multimeter-/292173362048?hash=item4406e3b380:g:160AAOSwfRdZFQ-XThese are new old stock and will need a new rechargeable battery but it's a really nice meter for the price. There's a thread on it herehttps://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/bunch-of-keysight-u1252b-meters-around/

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2017, 04:26:16 am
content: Own 287 and developed loves and hates for it, but the strongest point regarding Fluke 28x series is the powerful logging andviewing the chart at the meter, no more hassle viewing it or downloading it to your laptop/pc for viewing. This alone for me is one of the killer feature.Examples at the logging feature that the chart can be viewed on the meter :- Used with thermal probe to verify if a newly installed air condition is working properly for a straight 8 hours, I just left the meter in the room overnight, and view it on the spot by tomorrow. Example charts of 8 hours log and it can be zoomed down to seconds ->(Fluke 287 screen on the recorded temperature chart for 8 hours)(Warning, big photo). Imagine you're doing a project at the field, you only need to bring one meter instead of extra computer just to view the chart.- Another example, the capacitor leakage chart, use 287 in voltage mode and series with the capacitor under test to measure it's leakage current, and you can see the forming result for about 1.5 hours from a NOS polymer cap OSCON at it's rated voltage, at the chart reading, Y axis -> 1 volt equivalent to -> Volt / (10M Ohm DMM internal resistance) -> 0.1uA. Here the logging chart of theCapacitor leakage logged by 287Also another consideration is it's voltage reference, it looks like its very stable (read: not drifted) for many-many years, don't know how good the BM869's voltage reference when aged.To me, the Fluke 28x logging feature is like a hand held low speed but with a very high resolution "oscilloscope".If you can get an used 28x cheap, suggesting you grab it if the logging feature fits your need.

author: WaveyDipole
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2017, 01:55:16 pm
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on July 22, 2017, 09:42:13 pmThanks for that video. It is very helpful to compare all these meters side by side and gives a good idea of the display clarity as well as meter functions. The Fluke 289 also seemed the least accurate of the bunch and the logging on it seemed frustratingly slow no matter how 'powerful' it might be. I thought that the Uni-T UT181 was looking great until it got zapped at the end of the video! What an anticlimax. I guess the protection is not up to scratch after all, but could they be replaced/upgraded with something better? I won’t be using my meter in an industrial environment, but equipment with valves and CRTs can still have pretty high voltages. I see that some of the Uni-T meters have ended up on the ‘Meters that don’t meet their specs’ thread although this, for the present, does not seem to be one of them. Still I would like one that is robust and safe.Quote from: joeqsmith on July 22, 2017, 11:00:21 pmYou mention the one you have is pre-production so maybe that explains why I can’t find any information on the 121GW. Obviously if it is not available, then its out of the running for now, however, I would be interested in knowing the full specs and when it is likely to be available?Quote from: Muttley Snickers on July 22, 2017, 11:42:49 pmQuote from: Gandalf_Sr on July 23, 2017, 02:23:28 amI haven't come across these before. I did a bit of digging and the spec seems decent but there do seem to be some downsides though. I had a look at the links as well as the eBay listing. As it is a USA seller, hefty shipping costs and tax will need to be factored in, it would still not be that far off the budget I have. However, having had a read of that thread, it would seem that there is some question over the legitimacy of the seller although that seems to be countered by the number of sales etc etc. I do not like the look of that orange screen - it does not seem to have a particularly good contrast? They also apparently run off (and seem to eat through) NiMH batteries so either they pre-date Lithium or it was just a poor choice by Agilent. Either way this would be a good reason not to consider it. Perhaps if it ran off rechargeable lithium batteries then I might have done.Quote from: SkyMaster on July 23, 2017, 02:09:16 amAgreed, an that would be preferred. But I am prepared to get a used item in good clean condition if it gets me something better that will last. I had a closer look at the enlarged photos of the two Fluke 287s I had seen and it looks like the screen one one has a crack. The other (which has now gone) looked quite dirty so I might have to re-think that avenue and look at the Brymen. Still I will keep an eye out. Somethine else might still crop up.

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 23, 2017, 03:25:34 pm
content: People who want logging in a meter should also consider the Brymen BM525S. I has all the features and safety of the BM969S, but has only a 10,000/6,000 count display and lower accuracy. But, it has internal logging of up to 87,000 counts in single measurement mode and up to 43,000 counts in dual measurement mode. It will also log up to 20 times per second.Of course reading 87,000 records back without graphing is a bit tedious, so you would need a USB cable.IMHO, the BM525S is the smart buy for most hobbyists than the BM869S, UNLESS you really need the higher counts and accuracy which I argue most people don't need. Being able to log (and two measurements at the same time too) is much more useful and at a lower price. The one thing I don't like about the BM525S is that the logging has not time stamp as there is no RTC in the meter. You need to make note of the start time when making a log.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2017, 04:38:11 pm
content: Quote from: WaveyDipole on July 23, 2017, 01:55:16 pmIMO the 181A is the best meter for electronic work that UNI-T has produced so far. There was a part 2 to that video where I repaired it then proceeded to chop the circuit board up in an attempt to improve the meter's robustness. Not something I would ever suggest doing. The following summarizes my thoughts.QuoteQuote from: WaveyDipole on July 23, 2017, 01:55:16 pmI think there are many of us with the same questions. I have created a series of videos for it but I have no insider info on release dates or final specs.https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLZSS2ajxhiQAM1JQ3KrSWMEW16HXQEyhy

author: WaveyDipole
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2017, 09:13:56 pm
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on July 23, 2017, 04:38:11 pmI have just looked at part two. Interesting how you go it going again and it passed all of the tests once your mod had been applied. Shows that it is possible to design them properly.Quote from: joeqsmith on July 23, 2017, 04:38:11 pmThanks for the pointer to the videos. i will have a look at them and then come back.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2017, 10:49:41 pm
content: I responded to your PM.Rather than ask me how to go about modifying the UT181A to make it more robust, I suggest that you contact UNI-T. The designed the meter. Tell them you are interested in the product but you are concerned with it's lack of robustness. Maybe they will come out with an improved version. I would like to see it myself. Asking me will achieve nothing.QuoteFor what it is worth, if this really is the criteria and part of high spec to you means robust, get a meter that meets this goal by design. Don't EVERY consider modifying a handheld meter that you plan to use. Meter's I have modified are purely for educational / entertainment only.If you want to learn more about how I would tackle a problem like this, I suggest watching the videos on the UT61E where I walk you through the steps I took. Even with these videos, it was never my intent to provide detailed information on exact values I chose as to allow an uneducated person to attempt these mods but rather my attempt to try and help a small group of people understand that simply adding MOVs to the UT61E may not improve the meters ability to withstand an ESD event.

author: Electro Detective
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2017, 11:38:36 pm
content: The Fluke 289 has just about any and every feature of most Fluke meters all rolled into one, and then someThe exclusive to Fluke? positive and negative centered DC bargraph is a handy feature for me,the onboard 'in house' logging / save / playback feature saves on messing about with other logging routines,especially when troubleshooting intermittent problems on a job,and the simultaneous MIN-MAX-AVERAGE display is a realtime no brainerIf you can get a new/used 289 with the latest firmware, no severe internal supercapacitor leakage issue,and prepared to work through all the menus and learn the ropes (childs play)taking notes along the waythe 289 is hard to beat, and the few seconds of ON boot time really isn't the deal breaker some whine on aboutThe backlight and variable contrast works well, and if battery life is an issue, use rechargeablesor switch the thing off when not in use ! Duh...The Fluke 189 is very nice too, loads of features, EASY to use, like a Fluke 87 on steroidsThe Brymen may be good value with impressive CAT ratings that might protect the meter during a BBQ starter zap test,accidental carpet surf across a lounge room or quickly removing a garment,direct lightning strike if forgotten on top of the Jeep whilst Thor is sorting out some super villain,(-add your own highly unlikely event here-)but the 289 is the real deal all purpose all rounder SERIOUS feature packed meterwith the LEAST quirks and bugs I am aware of, compared to the competition.The gent here gives it a 2 Part no BS review:youtube.com/watch?v=nfnDVuTkkiEyoutube.com/watch?v=sRe7rf98roIGood luck with the coin toss if it comes to that

author: Dubbie
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 23, 2017, 11:42:40 pm
content: I have both the Fluke and the Brymen.For daily use I almost always reach for the Brymen. The batteries last longer and it turns on much faster.I really only use the fluke for logging and for when I need extra meters.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2017, 07:30:32 am
content: We are getting of the topic...OP asked new BM869S or used Fluke 289... Budget 200-250 €I cannot say what he should do.I can say I personally don't buy used measurement equipment if I don't plan to send it to factory for repair and calibration..Used Fluke is not Fluke. It is potentially dangerous, out of calibration crap until proven otherwise. Proven is the word here.If I had money I would buy new Fluke 289. Used, not really, unless I personally knew owner and knew that it practically wasn't used. Otherwise, I would calculate price for it was purchase price + repair + calibration in Fluke facility.What is the purpose of Porsche with a shut engine ? So your can brag you have one.. NO thanks.What is the purpose of buying allegedly 0,025% instrument for a lot of money (it is expensive because it is allegedly that good) if some idiot measured around microwave transformers and it is now all kinds of damaged inside.. But looks real nice...Fluke meter (or any other premium goods to that matter) is not a magical object that can not fail and is perfect by definition..It is a fine instrument made by company that has best reputation in industry that instruments they make are good quality, and well made and calibrated when they LEAVE the factory. Broken Fluke equipment is, well, electronics waste, like everything else...If you can get one for like 20$ or 50$ it's fine, you risk it, and even if you send it to Fluke for repair, you're good...Also, said Brymen is a "SERIOUS feature packed meter".. I personally like it better that Fluke 87V .And the fact that i had enough leftover money to buy an entry level oscilloscope was a bonus...What I want to say is that we came to the point where there are options to expensive first tier manufacturers..Also, if you want premium, there are Keysight, Gossen and such that have some really interesting stuff..Options exist, and it's not so black and white anymore.. Brymen is one of them that is professional, safe, high quality and has a very good price..Unless you need graphical logging on the instrument, you don't need 289. And if you do, there are 70-100MHz 1GSa/s 2 channel handheld oscilloscopes to be had for the price of new 289... Think about that ...But if you have a budget, and would like to buy Fluke, then by all means, You won't be sorry.Best regards,Sinisa

author: Gandalf_Sr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2017, 09:41:38 am
content: Quote from: WaveyDipole on July 23, 2017, 01:55:16 pmThe seller is legit although he sometimes takes a week to ship. While these are new-old-stock, they come in the original packaging with all the accessories including charger and rechargeable NiMh battery. My battery seemed OK but I replaced it with a $13Powerex MHR84VP low self-discharge 8.4 Vbattery and I can leave it on the bench for months and then it works fine. The contrast is perfect, the pictures that show the meter often show the OLED version which does look weird but the U1252B is the (cheaper) LCD version so the orange color is just the backlight (I've added a couple of pictures for you) and you can log 200 points to the meter or infinite to a PC via an optional cable or even Bluetooth link (which I own).

author: Electro Detective
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2017, 09:52:47 am
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on July 24, 2017, 07:30:32 amGood points mateThe poster is considering the purchase of"one high spec meter as a retirement present"A calibration cert hasn't been mentioned, high spec has. Why buy new, when a used one will do the same job?I doubt the gent will come across a used 289 that has drifted much, if at allBesides buying new, I have gambled on a few beaten up Flukes in the past, including a 289, and after clean up and thorough check, they are all in specIf he gets one from a seller that backs his items, or from someone getting out of the trade,or a user over their head/skill set with such a 'fully featured' meter,I'd say he's good to goFWIW, where will OP take his Brymen meter to get fixed or get parts if/when it goes belly up?Where will he take/send it to get calibrated?With a high end Fluke with quite a few years of support left, it's not an issueMy 6.2

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2017, 10:21:41 am
content: Quote from: Electro Detective on July 24, 2017, 09:52:47 amAll you said are also good points..Quote from: Electro Detective on July 24, 2017, 09:52:47 amIf it's a treat or a present higher value gift is definitely better.. As I said he won't be sorry...Quote from: Electro Detective on July 24, 2017, 09:52:47 amCorrect, he didn't mention it, because everybody seems to think that Fluke meters cannot go out of spec somehow.Used one must be thoroughly checked if it is in spec. On a 0.025% meter it is a challenge, equipment and proper procedure wise..If you have the knowledge and other high end equipment to do calibration yourself, than it's OK not send it to Fluke.A friend of mine is in charge of instrument repair and calibration in local petrol refinery... Go ask him, they pretty much run Fluke shop.. They get damaged and out of spec all the time. Not because Fluke is crap, it is fantastic, but people do horrible things to them..Quote from: Electro Detective on July 24, 2017, 09:52:47 amI'm glad it worked out well for you.Quote from: Electro Detective on July 24, 2017, 09:52:47 amI'd say he should be cautious, because he might get lucky like you, or maybe not.And yes if he can return it it's better.Quote from: Electro Detective on July 24, 2017, 09:52:47 amHere you are correct. That's why I said Brymen is only example. By chance, Brymen has good presence in EU lately, and service support.In USA or Australia I understand it is not so. And I would say that I would probably not buy it there.. But since here I have good support not a problem. On the other hand, if I had to pay for repair on a major damage, it would probably be cheaper to buy new Brymen than repair high end Fluke...Nice talking to you...

author: Mark Hennessy
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2017, 11:11:26 am
content: Quote from: Electro Detective on July 23, 2017, 11:38:36 pmIt's worth saying that if you have the PC software+USB cable (or know someone who does), you can update the firmware on a 287/289 yourself.Quote from: Electro Detective on July 23, 2017, 11:38:36 pmOf all my Flukes, the 189 is the only one I bought new, back in 2004 IIRC. I'd wanted my own Fluke for years, and decided to treat myself before all my funds were eaten up by an impending house move and other significant life events. A lovely meter, but it was a rude introduction to Fluke's meanness - I was astonished that the necessary software and cable didn't come by default with aloggingmultimeterLast time I looked, it was around £200 - I got mine as unopened NOS for £100 from eBay.I use an 87V most of the time. Quite apart from battery life, it's rare the extra precision of the 189 or 287 is required (and when it is, I have bench multimeters that are better than my hand-helds). But as bench space is always at a premium, I'm just as likely to use a cheap Aneng AN8002 or the 9999-count AN8008 these daysFor many situations, one of each of the Aneng models plus a £40 Fluke 101 (for when safety is important) might be all we need. If logging is a definite requirement, then the 22,000-count UT61E looks interesting at the price, especially if it's for low-energy bench work. I must get around to picking one up...In short, a collection of smaller, cheaper meters might be better than one expensive meter. Especially as it's common to need to measure 2 or 3 different things at the same time. At least, I often felt that way after blowing all that cash on the 189 back then. But then, it is nice to have an occasional treat

author: WaveyDipole
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2017, 11:30:11 am
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on July 23, 2017, 10:49:41 pmI absolutely take your point about this. Contacting Uni-T is also a good idea and I plan to do that. If not for the ESD protection letting it down, they would have had a sale. As it stands, the meter is out of the running, which is a shame.Quote from: Electro Detective on July 23, 2017, 11:38:36 pmThanks for pointing out the supercapacitor issue. I wasn’t aware of that. Have just looked it up.Quote from: Dubbie on July 23, 2017, 11:42:40 pmInteresting observation. Why do you usually reach for the Brymen?Quote from: 2N3055 on July 24, 2017, 07:30:32 amQuote from: 2N3055 on July 24, 2017, 10:21:41 amAll good points to think about, thank you. However, bragging does not even come into it. Reliability, stability and longevity do and Fluke is an established brand in this regard and there are many comments about how they do not drift with age, which does not usually something that gets said about other meters. I do however take your point that anything used cannot be guaranteed to be in calibration, will need to be checked, and may need to be calibrated which adds to the cost.Quote from: Gandalf_Sr on July 24, 2017, 09:41:38 amThanks for the reassurance regarding the seller and the pics of the display.Quote from: Electro Detective on July 24, 2017, 09:52:47 amI have also been thinking about that. Since I live in Europe, I have been in touch with the primary for Europe which seems to be Biall in Poland and they have been very helpful. I guess it would have to be sent there, however, when I was offered pricing along with a mention of an optional calibration certificate, I asked what the cost of the calibration certificate would and got this response:Quote from: BiallSo where indeed would I send it to be calibrated? There is also TMS, but I have seen a few bad commentsa about them, particularly when it comes to communication, so I would want to avoid purchasing there and certanly going there for after service.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2017, 11:40:58 am
content: Welectron in Germany is my choice these days.. Give them a call see what they'll say. But calibration can be performed by any decent lab, nothing special about it.

author: WaveyDipole
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2017, 11:54:42 am
content: Quote from: Mark Hennessy on July 24, 2017, 11:11:26 amYes, I have seen them for around 200GBP. Absolutely extortionate, but am currently watching a used Fluke that comes with one.Quote from: Mark Hennessy on July 24, 2017, 11:11:26 amThe Aneng is certainly very tempting for very little money. I already do have a couple of other meters which are an Avo 8 mk6, Maplin Precision Gold (main workhorse) and Fluke 179 (when I need two meters or more precision). The latter was BNIB, but cost a third less than retail price. Seemed to be a one off listing, possibly NOS. I purchased a HP3478A which was very nice, but I didn't realise how big it was even for a bench meter, and it just took up too much space (was too deep) in my tiny work area so I have now sold it in favour of something more compact. I'm not expecting the replacement to be as precise, but it is meant to be a treat!Quote from: 2N3055 on July 24, 2017, 11:40:58 amThanks. I will make some enquiries with them.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2017, 02:15:43 pm
content: Quote from: WaveyDipole on July 22, 2017, 07:10:02 pmIt's a retirement present. Take the price out of the equation.

author: WaveyDipole
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2017, 03:25:44 pm
content: Well that's one way of looking at it!In the meantime I have now sent an e-mail to Uni-T about the EMC standard (or rather lack of) of their UT181B meter. On their contact page they boast 'Fast reposnse and immediate action'. It will be interesting to see how fast their response and how immediate any action is, although I'm not holding my breath!

author: switcher
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2017, 05:28:39 pm
content: The Fluke 287/289 are very big, more breezeblock, than brick. When they first came out, the RS rep visited my then employer, to peddle his many wares as usual; and brought one for the engineers to have a play with. Agreement was universal; a very capable meter, just too big; preference for the Fluke 89/189 was universal.I wouldn't buy Bryman or UniT tat; I'd buy a decent 2nd-hand 89/189, and go out for a slap-up meal with the rest !Well ! You did ask for opinions !

author: Electro Detective
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2017, 11:07:05 pm
content: FYI, BOTH Fluke 289 and 189 have the same supercapacitor issueI've cleaned these supercRapacitors up with IPA and check the board every few monthsAFAICT they may leak and or or grow a brown beard or just go flat/short, just the one timeThe meters still work perfect regardless, and the AA batteries do what the crummy internal stupidcapacitor should be doing,keeping the current real world clock settings for logging etc during the brief period when changing the AA batteriesotherwise you just set the clock every time you change batteries, no big dealIt boggles the senses they did this same blunder TWICE on their flagship meter over a 15 (?) year span.I suspect the 789 process meter may have the same issue too, and that's by no means a cheap DMMI will eventually remove these supercraps and put in something reliable and long term(ANY SUGGESTIONS ANYONE?)although FLUKE should be doing that SERVICE for meproof of purchase or notin light of my ongoing support and partial recommendation for their very pricey waresThen again.. if Fluke needs weeks/months to solder in one component, and replace it with the same problematic oneNO THANKS,I'll roll with DIY and they can keep their Warranty and 'reputation driven company' BS for their fresh green customers

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2017, 01:06:24 am
content: Quote from: WaveyDipole on July 24, 2017, 03:25:44 pmDave may have the 121GW available before we see a UT181B or an improved version of the Gossen Ultra.If you are interested in looking at other meters, you may want to look at what HIOKI has to offer. I ran three low end meters from Fluke, HIOKI and Keysight. The Keysight with it's fancy GDTs was damaged but both the Fluke and HIOKI survived. The HIOKI I have is very well made. Like Fluke, the price is going to be higher. I use their higher end products for work and will say they make some top quality equipment.I was not at all impressed with Gossen's service and even less impressed with the meter I bought from them. Still, I will say that electrically the meter is one of the most robust I have looked at. Right there with the best of the best. I would not recommend the Ultra in it's current condition but It would not hurt to see if they have something you like.BTW, congratulations on being able to retire!!

author: Dubbie
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 25, 2017, 02:33:47 am
content: Quote from: WaveyDipole on July 24, 2017, 11:30:11 amBecause:#The Brymen starts up instantly.#It doesn't require soft menus for something simple like a continuity test - on the Fluke, this really ruins my flow.#I'm not constantly worried that I am running down the battery by leaving it switched on.Apart from those things, both meters are very nice.The logging on the Fluke is really great and I like using it when I can't be bothered setting up the computer to do it or if I am away from the bench.R

author: WaveyDipole
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2017, 04:33:18 pm
content: I take the point that the Fluke 289 is large, but I can't find the 189 or 189 II available in the UK at all. In fact at least one outlet listed it as obsolete? It does still seem to be available in the United States though, but hefty shipping charges would then need to be factored in. Regarding the 87v, there seem to be plenty of them around, but from what I can tell, do these have just the one display? Other than that, all these meters seem to be 50,000 count meters with almost the same specs.I'm also a little confused about the logging software. I know that the cable is available either with the meter as a kit or for 59GBP when purchased seperately. What I can't find info on is whether the software ios a chargeable extra, or can it be downloaded? Except for an upgrade, I couldn't find a download which suggests that one has to have a licence already. The software + IR cable sells for around 200GBP which also suggests that the software has to be purchased extra. Perhaps someone could clarify please? Aslo, if I had the IR cable could I use sigrok instead? It does appear to be a supported device.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2017, 12:54:03 am
content: Quote from: WaveyDipole on July 25, 2017, 04:33:18 pmThe Fluke 189 is long out of production. It is only available used and second hand, unless you happen somehow to stumble across some new old stock. You can find them on eBay for quite unreasonably high prices, even when in heavily used, scratched and dirty condition.If you go to any listing advertising the 189 as new, you will find that it shows "unavailable" or "obsolete" on the product page.

author: Mark Hennessy
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2017, 08:01:49 am
content: Quote from: WaveyDipole on July 25, 2017, 04:33:18 pmThe 87V is only 6000-count. It has a12,00020,000-count mode, but you have to manually select that. Yes, single display only.The 287/9 replaced the 187/9. Both 50,000-count and better accuracy and functionality compared to the 87V. But the 87V is good enough most of the time, and has the advantage of much, much longer battery life compared to the 187/9 and 287/9 models. The 87V - being an industrial meter - has the annoyance of the current ranges defaulting to AC, requiring a press of a button to put them to DC. That still catches me out occasionally, despite having used the 87V for 5+ years!Quote from: WaveyDipole on July 25, 2017, 04:33:18 pmYes, you need to buy the £200 package. I assume that the option of just the lead is for those who have already purchased the software but need a replacement lead, or for those who need a different lead for another multimeter (e.g. a bench multimeter). It is possible to buy just the software only - presumably for those willing to make up a serial lead for the bench multimeters.

author: evava
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2017, 08:08:24 am
content: Also, in regard to Fluke 289, be sure to read manual very thoroughly, so to not be disappointed later, as I was.Do not be fooled by 50000 count -- typically on some ranges, the error in a reading removes one or two of the least significant digits.And, the display is worst of all my other DMMs, because of this is unpleasant and uncomfortable to use this meter often.For me mainly trend chart is reason to own one.

author: alm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2017, 08:40:28 am
content: Quote from: evava on July 26, 2017, 08:08:24 amIf you are talking absolute accuracy, sure. The meter will not measure a 10 V signal accurate to the mV. But this is common to pretty much all meters to some degree, whether they are 3000 count or 2000000 count. The extra digits still provide resolution, that in many cases is more important than accuracy. It allows you to measure small drops in voltages. To find two 10 kOhm resistors that have the same value down to the 1 Ohm. You will not be able to tell that the value is exactly 10.000 Ohm, but you can tell that the difference is less than 1 Ohm.

author: Electro Detective
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2017, 09:20:55 am
content: Surely the Brymen BM869s has a few things that disappoint, or does not quite match the spec sheet...

author: PA4TIM
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2017, 10:08:17 am
content: I have a Agilent U1252A for more then 6 years and used it every day in my lab. I do not think it is mechanical as good as a Fluke (my Fluke 77-3 is still good and in spec after years of automotive abuse) My Agilent had a broken common bananabus, the tilt-stand does not work anymore, all 4 probes got sticky and disintegrated. But it is still within specs with almost no drift (I know because it came standard with a detailed calibration rapport so I know the start values )About spot on, many people think there meter is still spot on, only a few know so do not overvalue that point . And what about tempco. rH% etc, Does it matter for you if the meter reads 3,9995 instead of 4V ? There is also linearity, my Keithley 2000 is ultra linear. The Brymen and Agilent are good but not even close to the 2000 . Spot-on at 5V is great but is it also spot-on at 1 or 3V, many meters are notBought a Brymen BM869s about 2 months ago. I calibrated it the same day for future reference. It was well within specs. I do not know how it will behave over time. But I can calibrate myself and the dealer told me it can be done by the user himself. I now use the Brymen more as the Agilent. The bigger display is great but the thing I like most is that it remembers the last used settings. The continuity beeper is ultra fast. I do a lot of reverse engineering so that is very important for me.Look what is important for you. Nice if a meter can make graphs but not important if you never need or use that function, on the other hand if you need it, do not buy a meter without that function. Same goes for all functions. And look up the specs for that function. For instance TRMS is nice but rather useless if it has a 5% accuracy, a 100Hz bandwidth and a crest factor of 2.

author: Gandalf_Sr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2017, 11:17:23 am
content: The Agilent U1252B that I linked on eBay a few posts back is still my recommendation. Go towww.keysight.comand search for it and you'll find that it's still sold for $400 new with the only difference being that it's now branded "Keysight" rather than "Agilent", I paid $200 for mine and paid another $13 for a new battery that I really didn't need. If you pay with PayPal, you are covered if you get a dud or it gets damaged in shipping. I believe it meets all your requirements and is 0.03% basic accuracy on most ranges.

author: WaveyDipole
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2017, 12:35:29 pm
content: Could someone please help me understand one aspect of the spec sheet please?When it says 1%+n, what does the number +n mean?I understand that this refers to %reading + offset, but what does the 'offset' refer to?BTW, there was a 289 on eBay for 270GBP, described as little used and with a Make Offer option. I was very tempted, but no matter how much I tried to persuade myself to put an offer on it, I just couldn't get over that poor screen contrast and the supercap issue. That's before even considering the slow graphing and menu system. I'm begining to think that the Fluke 289/287/189 is NOT the way to go for hobbyist use so i am now considering the 'best of the rest'.

author: Jon.C
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 26, 2017, 12:38:35 pm
content: I love the U1252B but ... only has a defect , the continuity test is very badI'm waiting for a new U1273A, bought on ebay for 256 €The screen refresh rate is impressive (very important for me ) and the continuity test works much betterAlthough they are 30,000 counts against 50,000

author: alm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2017, 01:08:05 pm
content: Quote from: WaveyDipole on July 26, 2017, 12:35:29 pmThe number of least significant digits that it may be off. If the accuracy is 1% + 6 digits, and the meter displays 1.000 V, then it could be 1% * 1V + 0.006 V off.Dave explains it in this old video:

author: WaveyDipole
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2017, 01:14:02 pm
content: Thanks for pointing out that video alm.I did a bit of googleing but did not find an satisfactory explanation. That is nice and clear.BTW, is there much difference between the Agilent 1252A and the 1252B other than the colour? Did they fix the continuity issue mentioned in Dave's video?

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 26, 2017, 03:17:28 pm
content: Yes the BM869S has a couple of things that might disappoint, but it meets its specs. Why you insist it must not, I have no idea why.Its continuity is not latched, the hold function is manual, and its battery life is lower than some might like. Maybe there are some other things people might not like.Edit: typos corrected

author: R005T3r
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2017, 03:30:55 pm
content: I'd go for the 287. The datalogging capability is useful, especially if you don't have any other instrument that act as a recorder...

author: colorado.rob
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2017, 04:12:34 pm
content: Quote from: Gandalf_Sr on July 26, 2017, 11:17:23 amI have a U1252A and U1252B and I have to say that if either of these went bad at some point I'd pick up another U1252B in a heartbeat. The continuity sensitivity that someone complained about is adjustable and meets my needs. And when it doesn't, my Extech EX-330 meter can do that job just fine. The battery lasts long enough on my bench even for longer logging sessions. And having it rechargeable means that it is always ready to go. One of it's nicest features is the tilt stand. It keeps the meter very stable on the bench.

author: WaveyDipole
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2017, 04:20:25 pm
content: Anyone know whether kesight/Agilent have fixed the EMC issue?I was getting to the point of putting a bid one one when I came upon this video from Dave. I found another video where a guy had the same problem with the U1252 as well.EDIT: It seems there is a follow up video where it has been fixed:So what's the deal on buying a used one? Will Keysight still repair/replace it?

author: MosherIV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2017, 04:35:13 pm
content: QuoteYes, they did a software fix which just turn on the filter permenantly. I beleive Dave did a follow up vlog.

author: Gandalf_Sr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2017, 04:40:55 pm
content: Yes, I'd echo the comment that, for continuity, there is no issue on my U1252B, I think they were complaining about it not being fast enough - I specifically tested this when I got the meter and considered it perfectly OK. Likewise, I charge the battery once every blue moon and only because I think I should, it's never run out on me.

author: WaveyDipole
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2017, 04:56:29 pm
content: Gandalf, that's a helpful real-world use observation. Thank you.

author: retiredcaps
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2017, 05:23:13 pm
content: Quote from: Mark Hennessy on July 26, 2017, 08:01:49 amThe Fluke 87V has 20,000 count mode option, not 12,000.

author: Electro Detective
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2017, 05:38:33 pm
content: If Continuity speed and buzzer performance is important to you,Flukes such as 87x, 189, 289 seies etc are hard to beat (no contest!)assuming clean probes and sharp tips used in a comparison.Many other brands (not all) just get it wrong or cheap out on that featureimplementing some scratchy sounding pos transducer that even cats and dogs dislikeleaving the unaware user 'waiting for the bus' going from one test point to the nextand or going back again to re-check and confirmInferior Continuity performance on any high priced multimeter for speedy troubleshooting can be a a major work flow 'impedance'and THE major deal breaker for me

author: Mark Hennessy
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2017, 09:21:59 pm
content: Quote from: retiredcaps on July 26, 2017, 05:23:13 pmAh yesI was in a hurry when I posted that. I'll correct the original post...

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 27, 2017, 04:56:50 am
content: Quote from: Jon.C on July 26, 2017, 12:38:35 pmFWIW, I have the same meter and the continuity issues can be addressed.The easiest, is use really good quality probes. In my case, the Probemaster's I use made a significant difference over the stock probes that came with it. Better yet, put it in manual mode and see if it's to your liking.And of course you can combine both of these.Of course, a third alternative is to use a different meter with a latching continuity if available. Swapping between meters is a PITA though IMHO, so I do try and pick the right one for the job.

author: WaveyDipole
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 27, 2017, 10:04:04 am
content: Well the U127x I was thinking of bidding on has a serial of 57xx so should not be affected by the EMC issue, but it is not supported in sigrok (yet?). Still, the IR/USB cable is reasonably priced for these though. I also noticed that the that although the U127x is a later model, it has a lower count? i.e. 30,000 vs the U125x's 50,000.Thanks for the additional comments on continuity, nanofrog. It ocurred to me as well that I could use my 179 or even my Precision Gold, but it does seem rather poor that a 400-500GBP meter cannot get a simple thing like this quite right. Obviously good probes do make a difference. I recently purchased some cheap ones for the Precision Gold and found that they were awful and almost unusable. The main problem was the quality of the banana plugs which make bad contact with the socket leading to dodgy readings. The wires and probe, while a little short and nothing special, do not seem that bad. I might try swapping the plugs to see whether it improves things. By contrast, I also purchased a set of Keysight probes from Farnell and found them to be a joy to use by comparison. I will take your points into consideration.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2017, 04:54:26 pm
content: I have a U1273A and its continuity is pretty good, including some additional interesting features I highlight on the video below:https://youtu.be/fH6rL2U2oAI

author: PA4TIM
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2017, 05:31:25 pm
content: Cool, Sounds like an 80's arcade computergame.My Agilent is rather slow in continuity but I use the diode test function instead. But my fastest is the BM869s. I do not care about latching, this often makes it slower because you need to wait until it stops beeping.I tried continuity on my Agilent with several probes, no noticeable difference in speed. But I do not have crappy probes.I have a set Brymen probes that came with the BM869s. I do not like the tip shape (to "flat" ) but mine are are stable. But a resistance of 0,1021 ohm is not great. As a reference: my original (very cheap looking) Keitley 2000 probes are 0,0457 ohm, original Flukes (the plastic version of the 77-III) are 0,0706, Siglent silicone leads and very sharp tips from my SHS1062 are 0,0586 (sharp tips are often higher in resistance)

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2017, 06:09:22 pm
content: Quote from: PA4TIM on July 28, 2017, 05:31:25 pmI have tested a variety of probes including the ones that came with my BM869s. They all measured about 0.05 ohms or less (total resistance of both leads in series). I am puzzled that you would measure over 0.1 ohms for those?

author: PA4TIM
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2017, 06:34:24 pm
content: I used a strip silverplated copper and put the tips as close together as possible without touching the sides of the tips because I wanted the real live added resistance from tip to tip. But it was a quick test, my Keithley 2000 was not warmed up and I did not wait to get minimal thermal effects etc. Just like most times when I'm working.The reason I tested this was because I bought a set cheap silicon testleads from Banggood. Just out of curiosity. One single testlead was 0,023 ohm, with my favorite supersharp probes I measured 0,143 for a set, with "standard tip" probes it was 0,0516. But again, not a metro-logic correct measurement, I was more interested in relative differences. And for instance if rotating the plug in the meter has an effect.

author: switcher
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2017, 06:36:00 pm
content: This looks like a good deal (no association)http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/272776944318

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2017, 01:10:16 am
content: Quote from: PA4TIM on July 28, 2017, 05:31:25 pmFortunately it can be turned off from the setup menu...

author: chickenHeadKnob
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2017, 03:17:57 am
content: Quote from: IanB on July 28, 2017, 06:09:22 pmWith the brymen's you also need to specify/distinguish which of the two different probe styles you have. The stainless steel sharp point sparky type you get from TME or the the better bench service type you get from Frankie.

author: PA4TIM
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2017, 12:15:31 pm
content: Quote from: chickenHeadKnob on July 29, 2017, 03:17:57 amThey came with the meter, I bought mine fromwww.eleshop.nlI did not know they come in flavorsThey are goldplated and do not have the grove on the tip.

author: chickenHeadKnob
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2017, 12:28:39 pm
content: Quote from: PA4TIM on July 29, 2017, 12:15:31 pmThe gold plated ones are the better ones. or at least most people prefer them. The stainless steel ones are serviceable and appear safe but have a cheaper feel, those are the ones I have.Don't understand what you mean by groove on the tip, sounds dirty.Best regards

author: PA4TIM
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2017, 12:55:54 pm
content: Tip with groove :

author: Jon.C
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 29, 2017, 01:56:48 pm
content: my favorites Keysight U1273A and Agilent U1252bAll have an excellent continuity test, minus the agilent u1252band probemaster leads

author: WaveyDipole
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2017, 03:42:50 pm
content: Quote from: switcher on July 28, 2017, 06:36:00 pmThanks. Indeed it does, although Fluke does not list the 89 anymore and I don't see it for sale anywhere. Is it obsolete now? Also, does it have the 89 have the elastomer problem with the display?BTW, I have been having fun and games trying to communicate with with Brymen.Eu and the main Brymen distributor in Poland, i.e. Biall.Pl. The last contact from Biall was from an employee on holiday! Needless to say I am not very happy with them so far. I've also heard a lot of negative stuff about TME so if I go for the Brymen I would probably order from Welectron in Germany.Still this Fluke 89IV looks interesting. I have asked the seller a couple of questions.Update: seller came back to me within a few minutes and it looks like it has been lightly used. I now only need answers to the above.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2017, 04:07:14 pm
content: Quote from: WaveyDipole on July 29, 2017, 03:42:50 pmFYI, I bought from TME.eu with no issues. Their shopping experience was a bit clunky compared to the likes of Amazon, but my order was delivered very promptly.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2017, 04:12:22 pm
content: Quote from: WaveyDipole on July 29, 2017, 03:42:50 pmI think you answered your own question.I personally would find £200 for a used meter very steep. That is not far off what it might have cost when new.

author: WaveyDipole
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2017, 04:32:00 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on July 29, 2017, 04:12:22 pmI tend to agree if its an obsolete meter, although this is the same as the 87, the current version of which sells for between around 420GBP and 500GPB. A quick search on eBay shows other selling for considerably more. Of course none of that necessarily means anything, but it does give me a bit of a guideline. The question now in my mind is, how long ago did it become obsolete, and whether Fluke would still service it should it develop a fault?

author: alm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2017, 04:37:48 pm
content: Quote from: WaveyDipole on July 29, 2017, 03:42:50 pmThe Fluke 89-IV was the predecessor to the Fluke 189 (pretty much identical as far as I can tell), and had very little to do with the 87-III and 87-V. The only known flaw as far as I know is thesupercap that may leak.Quote from: IanB on July 29, 2017, 04:12:22 pmI just grabbed a Fluke price list from 2006, and MSRP (ex. VAT) for the 189 was €499, or about £450 at today's exchange rate. The MSRP for the 89-IV was probably very similar a couple of years earlier. Still, I do not think £200 is that great a deal. But not bad either. They are very solid meters with few flaws in my opinion. Nicer than the successor (289) unless used for logging.

author: WaveyDipole
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2017, 05:10:31 pm
content: The reason I associated it with the 87 is because both the user and the service manual cover both models. Obviously the two 400GBP listings I am seeing are total nonsense. I was hoping that this one did not have the supercap issue, although it does have a date function so I guess that makes sense. The manual is dated 1999, so if it goes back two years before your price list, then I guess the meter is dated somewhere between 1999 and 2004. I guess that puts things into perspective somewhat, although it does have the fact that it is clean and according to the seller, is calibrated, going for it. There is the option to make an offer, so I'm now thinking whether to make one and how much bearing all the aforementioned in mind, or whether a new Brymen would be better bet.The of the BM869 on EEVblog was done back in 2013. Would anyone care to comment how well the meter has kept its calibration over the last 3-4 years? Also, how precise is that high resolution mode? Does it work sensibly or is it just a gimmick?

author: switcher
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2017, 05:23:14 pm
content: There was another 89, but it sold in a flash:-http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/332324038682The 87 referred to in the 89 manual, is the 87IV, which has nothing to do with the 87, 87III, or 87V.The 8xIV are different animals to the 87, 87III, or 87V.

author: alm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2017, 05:24:42 pm
content: The 87-IVand 89-IVare very similar (the 87-IV only lacks data logging I think?). The 87-IV is, however, a very different meter than the 87, 87-II, 87-III and 87-V, which were simpler meters with a different interface and fewer features.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2017, 06:17:39 pm
content: Quote from: alm on July 29, 2017, 05:24:42 pmHad you only told that to my friend who bought an 87V to replace his 87-IV, thinking it would just be a better meter. Never even considering that Fluke would use the same major model number for a completely different meter.Someone in marketing should have been removed but my friend shares the burden as well.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2017, 07:35:22 pm
content: Quote from: WaveyDipole on July 29, 2017, 05:10:31 pmIt gives very stable readings and is very sensitive to +/- 1 digit changes in the measurement. For instance it will easily show the change in voltage of a battery if you touch it and warm it up a little. Interestingly I just discovered that the voltage of 1.5 V alkaline and lithium cells went down when I warmed them up, but the voltage of an Eneloop NiMH cell went up.

author: alm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2017, 07:57:12 pm
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on July 29, 2017, 06:17:39 pmMy guess, based on the model numbering, is that the 8x-IV series was originally intended to replace the 8x-III series (anyone know if the 8x-III series was discontinued before the 8x-V was introduced?), but was renamed to 18x and a new 8x-V series was introduced after customer feedback (price? size? battery life? complexity?).

author: retiredcaps
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2017, 02:30:47 am
content: Quote from: alm on July 29, 2017, 04:37:48 pmAnother possible flaw with the 89IV is slow settle time as perhttps://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/fluke-89-iv-slow-settle-in-5v-range/

author: WaveyDipole
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2017, 09:11:56 am
content: Having thought about this for a few days and having reveiwed all of the comments on here as well has having watched quite a few comparison/teardown/review videos on the subject, I have ordered the Brymen BM869s from Welectron in Germany. My budget does not really stretch to the price of a new Fluke 87V or similar and having considered a number of used Flukes, there always seemed to be some aspect that restrained me from putting a bid on one. In one of the videos, the BM867 matched the Fluke in most respects and gave pretty much identical readings. Since this is intended for home/hobby/odd repairs for friends use, I was not overly concerned about having an 'industry grade' meter. I don't feel any need for bragging about having a Fluke and I would indeed like my retirement present to be brand new. The BM867/869 fits within my budget and seems to be well regarded. It appears to be nearly 4 years since the first (TBM287) review appeared and I haven't seen any complaints about the calibration drifiting - although I appreciate that it is still a comparatively short time. A decision had to be made at some point and this has been dragging on for a while now so I decided yesterday to draw a line under the issue and place an order, which I did this morning. I am looking forward to it arriving at the end of the week.

author: Dubbie
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 01, 2017, 09:18:30 am
content: Good choice.Enjoy the new meter!

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2017, 09:56:37 am
content: It is good piece of kit and will serve you well! Take care!

author: Electro Detective
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2017, 10:39:05 am
content: Congratulations, hope you get decades of use out of itA word to the wise though: upon receiving the meter, sit down, relaxed and armed with the user manual, check every feature to confirm working and within specso you can return it asap if it has any issue, and get another new oneBeen there recently with a friends feature packed Brymen that had a dead function on it which I uneathed within minutes.He got a new fully functioning meter shipped out the next day

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2017, 11:06:49 am
content: Quote from: WaveyDipole on August 01, 2017, 09:11:56 amFWIW I've the previous version (BM867a) that was manufactured back in 2000 based on the date codes, and it's still in spec. It's also worth noting that 17 years later, it'sstillin production.My only complaint on mine is it has the older backlight design; it's usable but not great. The current production has a revised backlight design which is very nice from what I've seen of it (YouTube & photos).

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2017, 11:48:54 am
content: I have a Brymen BM857 bought new old stock in 2012 that was manufactured in 2002 and stored in unknown conditions. It has seen a lot of action since my purchase and it is still in spec after 15 years.

author: WaveyDipole
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2017, 12:44:22 pm
content: Quote from: Electro Detective on August 01, 2017, 10:39:05 amThat is a very good point. Usually with anything new (particularly if it is complex), I like to to sit down and go through the manual carefully so that I understand all the controls, features, their application and their limits. I do intend to do this with the Brymen BM869s and check every feature as suggested. I sometimes found that the longer you leave it, the more difficult it can get to get something exchanged when you discover a problem later. Besides, it is also good to re-assure onself that everything is working correctly.I was going to purchase from the supplier that I was referred to by Brymen.EU, namely Biall, but I found that Welectron in Germany provide 3 years warranty versus 2 from the two Polish suppliers (TME and Biall). You get a soft case as part of the deal (costs 12euro from Biall) and the IR/USB cable cost 5 euro less. Before purchase I also confirmed with Brymen.EU that Welectron are authorised resellers of their products.It is also re-assuring to know that others who have purchased high end Brymen meters have found that they have remained in spec for the last few years.

author: WaveyDipole
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 04, 2017, 03:55:48 pm
content: The meter arrived yesterday - within 48hrs of orderning! It is quite a large chuncky meter and has joint Brymen/Welectron branding. It came supplied meter, probes and thermocouple assembled in the soft case, which was, in turn packed in a box. The logging cable and CD were packed seperately.I had a chance to do a functional test today and a brief comparison against my Fluke 179. Bearing in mind that the Fluke is 6000 count and the Brymen is 50,000 count, I would expect the first 2 or 3 digits after the point to be the same and the Brymen compares nicely, taking into account rounding. For example, .0058 on the Brymen would appear as .006 on the Fluke. but the Brymen of course, adds more precision.I started with checking against my 10v reference voltage. The Fluke reads 10.00. The Brymen reads 10.0019 which seems to be well within spec. Otherwise, voltage, both AC and DC read pretty much identical to the Fluke except for rounding effects. DC current readings are comparable as well. Although I couldn't test AC current precisely due to fluctuation, the readings were within a handful of counts for most part. I measured AC frequency up to about 250kHz but I have not tested logic frequency yet. Dioe testing worked fine except that The Fluke lit a LED but did not give a reading, whereas the Brymen did both. Initially I got no buzzer on the resistance setting for continuity, but then realised that I had to select the continuity mode which worked fine. Resistance readings across various resistors in the ohm, k, and M ranges were consistently low on the BM869s by 3-4 counts. I then checked the leads - Fluke 0.1ohm, Brymen 0.05ohm. Using the Brymen leads on both meters gave me readings that were within one count of the Fluke for most part. Capacitors gave sensible readings. Temperature readings were identical on T1 and T2, but I haven't checked that against the Fluke yet.Incidentally, AC voltage/frequency gave me a rather odd reading. I set my signal generator to give me a 1khz signal at 10v amplitude. The BM869s read 9.99xx kHz which was fine as I can't be sure how accurate the sig gen is, but the voltage read only 2.48v for the sine wave and 4.58v for the square wave. If I understand ti correctly, then square wave would seem to be approximately correct but I expected sine to read about 3.5v (Vp=5v * 0.7071). I do intend to do some more in depth tests on this, but could someone confirm that my assumption is correct? I will also test the remaining functions (logic frequency, dBM, VFD, nS and uA) as time allows, but the overall impression so far is favourable.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 04, 2017, 07:32:51 pm
content: Quote from: WaveyDipole on August 04, 2017, 03:55:48 pmThis is perhaps a typo? If not, then something else may be at play here.Perhaps you meant 10Vppinstead of amplitude, right? If so, the values you got indeed seem off. If my calculations are ok, for a 10Vppsine with no offset you should indeed have the 3.5VRMS, while for square wave you should have gotten 5VRMS.

author: Electro Detective
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 04, 2017, 11:01:08 pm
content: Happy NMD !Some hurried typos may have crept in (as they do lol) but wouldn't the Brymen read .999xx khz on a 1 khz signal?or was it referring to the 10 volts as 9.99xx ?Those sine and square trms readings are intriguing... waiting on Round 11Attempting precision meter comparisons with different leads isn't easy,but ultra clean sockets, plugs and probe tips can get you pretty close, if not on the moneyFWIW, I have 2 sets of identical silicone based quality flexible leads, and their task is only for A-B comparisons / poor man's CAL checks,then stored away in an air tight bag ready for next time,it's one less item to 'think about' with only the meters' sockets to clean before plugging them in

author: WaveyDipole
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2017, 05:19:27 pm
content: Sorry, yes it was a hurried typo on my part. I repeated the test today and the frequency is displayed as e.g. 989.90 Hz. I also had a look at the signal I was measuring with an oscilloscope. I set the voltage on the sig gen to an 'amplitude' of 9.93v - which I had assumed to mean peak to peak, but the oscilloscope showed only about 6vpp. I should mention that the 'Amplitude' control is rather coarse and difficult to set accurately hence the approximate voltage. I now increased the signal 'amplitude' to 10vpp on the oscilloscope, which the sig gen displayed as 13.71v ? I checked the meter again and it read 3.583v with some minor fluctuation confirming that the meter is correct. Square wave now reads as 5.120v.I noticed that the 'Amplitude' legend has a very small '(emf)' next to it. I did a search on amplitude emf, but didn't find much information. However it is evident that the sig gen is at fault, or at least my understanding of the term 'amplitude(emf)' written on the control.While I was there I also tested the Hz logic mode and could read frequencies up to 1MHz, square, sine and triangle wave which confirms that this function works as expected.

author: Mark Hennessy
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2017, 05:32:27 pm
content: When you have a meter on a generator that reads "EMF", this is the voltagebeforethe output impedance. This means that it's up to you to know (a) the output impedance of the generator, (b) the impedance into which it is working, and from all that, you can calculate the voltage at the terminals.This something I run into a lot with analogue audio in the professional world, where the output impedance can be changed from 600 ohms to 50 ohms or similar. The input impedance of an audio test set can usually be switched from 10k or 100k down to 600 ohms. The DUT can have a wide range of input and output impedances, so as you can see, doing something seemingly very simple like measuring the gain of an audio device is fraught with complexity, as you have 2 interfaces where you could have errors.For more general test gear, you'd hope that Zout was 50 ohms. A lot of Farnell oscillators (e.g. the LF1 range) were 60 ohms for whatever reason. As to Zin, that depends - obviously if it's a low frequency thing, transmission line effects might not be an issue, so 1M or more might be the answer. But for RF gear, it might be 50 ohms by default (or switchable on the front panel - like most fast 'scopes).In this case, your load is the Brymen, which is probably 10M, so loading effects shouldn't be an issue, so the reading should equal "EMF". Which suggests to me that your generator needs looking at. It might just need a tweak of the meter calibration pot.What is the sig gen?

author: WaveyDipole
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2017, 07:42:50 pm
content: Quote from: Mark Hennessy on August 05, 2017, 05:32:27 pmThanks for that explanation.Quote from: Mark Hennessy on August 05, 2017, 05:32:27 pmThe impedance of the Brymen does indeed have an impedance of 10M so the loading effect should be negligible. The sig gen is a Thandar TG2001. It generates nice clean sine, square and triangle signals up to 20MHz but the Amplitude control does behave rather erratically, with the voltage varying in a somewhat random manner at times instead of increasing and decreasing smoothly and gradually in the direction of rotation. This is why it was rather difficult to control the output amplitude voltage, never mind getting it spot on at 10v. The amplitude control has a linear dual pot with one adjusting the actual signal amplitude while the other adjusts the display in tandem. When I look at the signal on the oscilloscope it does tend to adjust relatively smoothly but can be a little jumpy at times, so possibly the pot that controls the display is the main culprit. I think I will need to have a proper look at it and quite possibly replace the pot, although the last time I looked I found it difficult to find one of the correct value - 470ohm - and was thinking of using a 1k with a 1k or maybe a 910ohm resistor across. In the meantime I ended up squirting it with a bit of Servisol and hoping for the best, which did help at the time but obviously a better long term solution is now required.

author: Mark Hennessy
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2017, 11:00:17 pm
content: Ah - that's a good trick. I have a old Philips PM5134 that does exactly the same - a ganged pot for amplitude, so it doesn't have to measure anything more tricky than a DC voltage. That's good, given that the TG2001 goes down to 0.002Hz, which would be hard to measure conventionally. No-doubt the attenuator switches at the output will be wired into this circuit, as they are with the Philips. And they'll be doing the same for the frequency settings, as measuring 0.002Hz might be rather time-consumingAs to replacing it with a larger value, I doubt there'd be any need to "pad" the pot, as both halves will no-doubt be being used as potentiometers, so the exact values won't matter. The only issue I can think of concerns the half that's carrying the signal: given that there's moderately high frequencies involved, the increased impedance seen by the surrounding circuitry might result in a minor change to the square wave rise time or similar. Impossible to say for sure without seeing the diagram. Someone on UKVRRR has it and might be willing to share?

author: WaveyDipole
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2017, 10:13:20 am
content: I replaced the pot with a 1k one and a 910ohm resistor in parrallel on each gang. This seems to have worked fine and the adjustment is smoot than consistent. I checked the old pot on a DMM and the resistance as you rotate the wiper bounces about all over the place so it was well worn.