First Oscilliscope... Siglent SDS1202X+ vs Keysight DSOX1102G/A - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: treyus30
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: April 02, 2017, 08:36:39 pm
content: Hi all,I'm getting ready to purchase my first oscilloscope for home lab use. I was originally going for one of Keysight's new 1000 series - probably shell out for the full bandwidth non-EDU model + signal generator (since I don't have a real one), and then hack it to 200MHz, and ideally unlock the serial protocols.But then I stumbled on the Siglent SDS1202X+ with the decoder options included for almost $100 less. Granted, this doesn't include a signal generator, so its about the same cost and features as the Keysight DSOX1102A, but then I don't have to mess with the internals (lame, I know).What do you guys think I should go with?The deal for the free decoder license for the Siglent is technically over, but it still comes up when I add it to the cart here:http://www.saelig.com/product/sds1202x-plus.htmThanks in advance.Sorry, I've only used a real oscilloscope once (in an into circuits class), so I'm not 100% on what key features I'll regret not having. I may not utilize everything these scopes have to offer in the present, but this is also a future-proofing thing since I will be graduating next year with a BSE, and then pursuing a master's.

author: Neo2199
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2017, 09:32:35 pm
content: Just out of curiosity did You consider Rigol DS1054z? It is well known to be most popular around this price range. Also can You specify bit more what are Your needs? What type of work are You going to use it for?

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 02, 2017, 09:39:00 pm
content: Has a reliable and full hack for the Keysight even been established yet?The price difference will be a lot more than $100 I thought?Siglent is US$379

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2017, 09:59:53 pm
content: Quote from: treyus30 on April 02, 2017, 08:36:39 pmWelcome to the forumThe free Decode promo for the SDS1kX and Plus models will continue at this time, I checked last week.The new kid on the block about to be released is a SDS1202X-E, a little different than the X and X+ models but a 200 MHz unit with free Decode and as Dave has mentioned under $400.At this price level and the significant saving I'd advise you to consider a standalone 2 ch AWG, maybe a SDG1032X that can generate square and sine waves to the full frequency fo the unit.http://siglentamerica.com/pdxx.aspx?id=4705&T=2&tid=16Keep an eye on things on the forum, a new 1202X-E is on its way to Dave for him to check out.Should be a world first review of this new model which BTW is very similar to the current X and X+but with increased processing power it's main feature. This allows it to do some stuff better, particularly FFT.

author: treyus30
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: April 02, 2017, 10:02:53 pm
content: Quote from: Neo2199 on April 02, 2017, 09:32:35 pmLooks like another viable option, especially with 4 channels.Mostly I figure I'll start out by poking and prodding random things haha; maybe do SNR & THD measurements of a few pieces of audio equipment I own. I'm leaning towards the digital, analog, and power pathways, so I imagine being able to interpret signals from custom ASICs, and analyzing noise parameters, slew rate, etc will be beneficial. It absolutely has to have FFT. I also am picking up a hobby for automotive work, so the auto decoder feature intrigues me a bit.Quote from: EEVblog on April 02, 2017, 09:39:00 pmI consider your hack reliable enough for me, Dave, haha. If you view the link I attached, it shows the price of the Siglent I had in mind. It was actually brought up on your original Keysight hacking thread from March.Quote from: tautech on April 02, 2017, 09:59:53 pmThank you. Excellent information!

author: treyus30
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: April 02, 2017, 10:18:52 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on April 02, 2017, 09:59:53 pmTo reiterate, you're suggesting to double down on Siglent, right?

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2017, 10:26:45 pm
content: Quote from: treyus30 on April 02, 2017, 10:02:53 pmWe don't have lots of info on the SDS1202X-E yet, apart from on the Chinese website, not even English datasheets yet.The Chinese are on a 4 day break for one of their festivals and we expect on their return mid week there will be some bits and pieces forwarded to us. Maybe Dave will get the first real info in English with the unit he's been sent that he should get any day.In some of the short vid's Dave has done on a SDS1102X-E prototype we've seen some small differences in the UI but otherwise it should operate much as the SDS1kX models do, just better in some respects.Quote from: treyus30 on April 02, 2017, 10:18:52 pmJust offering you some info, without it how would you know ?Your money, your choice.Give Dave a few days to check this model properly out, he has some little head start after having the prototype for a couple of weeks.

author: treyus30
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: April 02, 2017, 10:52:14 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on April 02, 2017, 10:26:45 pmI'll definitely take your advise and wait to see what this new one has to offer.Wish Rigol had plans to update the model that was suggested earlier, even if its just a facelift. Can't bring myself to pay the same amount of money for a comparable, but older generation of product...

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2017, 11:04:21 pm
content: IMHO having 4 channels is the way to go when developing circuits. The 4 channel Rigol DS1054Z has been around for a while but it also means it has very few (unknown) issues and hacked it still packs quite a punch. The competition has launched a whole bunch of scopes to compete on price and while many are better in some ways they all lack decoding or 4 channels.

author: kcbrown
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2017, 11:08:46 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on April 02, 2017, 11:04:21 pmWith a firmware update to the GDS-1054B to incorporate decoding, Instek could mount a serious challenge in this market. Makes me wonder why they don't do precisely that, seeing how it's just a firmware update. It's not like the hard work hasn't already been done...

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2017, 11:14:13 pm
content: AFAIK, nobody has yet found a generally useful hack for any feature of the the dsox1000.Although 200MHz appears possible, and appears to partially work, it has issues that mean you wouldn't want to do it permanently.I have little doubt something will happen at some point, but who knows what or when.

author: znroot
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2017, 08:33:54 am
content: If I were you I would go straight to the Keysight dsox1102g/a.Nothing to claim about siglent scopes, they works but imho keysight have a more responsive UI, signal generator in G model, better decode and a greater sampling frequency.Anyway siglent has a greater bandwidth in 200MHz models but remember you are still a 1GS (instead of the 2GS on keysight @100MHz).

author: JPortici
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2017, 10:06:21 am
content: Quote from: kcbrown on April 02, 2017, 11:08:46 pmmy take is that they don't want to hurt their 2000E series salesanother possibility, maybe they're running the cpu near capacity and they saw that adding decoder would take a hit to user interface / other functions? quick to find out: are the 1000E and 2000E using the same processor+fpga combo?i'd go with the 1102G too. Maybe less functions but proven to be working.I had the same dilemma. Analyzing pros and cons the keysight won (haven't bought it yet though)in the siglent,- Decode is currently limited in memory depth (1.4 MPts), timebase (50ms/div max) and functionality.. UART is limited at 115200 bps according to manual. That's barely enough, to me it was non sufficient (need at least 1 Mbps for future projects). Could be fixed with updates but i can't buy a promise, this is not crowdfunding**- There is a single 1 GS/s ADC.. which means 500 MS/s with 2 channels on: 200 MHz is pushing the limits (i also need the bandwidth.. PIC32MZ GPIO has faster risetime than 3.45 ns which is the fastest i can measure on my ds1054z)the plus of the siglent was-LAN-full MSO-additional math..pity but i need more what keysight can already give.**the new 1202X-E can do 1Mbps, saw in dave's video but it has no sig gen / mso capability!

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2017, 11:30:45 am
content: Quote from: znroot on April 03, 2017, 08:33:54 amFor 100MHz anything over 250Ms/s is enough so 1Gs/s versus 2Gs/s makes no difference at all.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2017, 11:39:05 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on April 03, 2017, 11:30:45 amHigher sample rates can provide many advantages, reduced aliasing, improved ENOB and timing resolution. Real instruments have real non-ideal characteristics and its not possible to apply the concepts of sampling blindly. Just comparing the sample rate between 1Gs/s and 2Gs/s is not enough information, but they are "fast enough" compared to a likely inadequate 250Ms/s

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2017, 04:02:28 pm
content: Quote from: treyus30 on April 02, 2017, 10:52:14 pmThe DS1054Z has been around for a couple of years and several generations of firmware upgrades. The issues that are left are well known and totally irrelevant.You suggesting to buy the latest and greatest with zero firmware upgrades, knowing that it will take several generations to get it right. Perfect code has never been written, much less released.I'm happy with my DS1054Z but I'm pretty sure I could use any other 4 channel scope just as well. As long as it went to 100 MHz and had decoding (yes, I know there are limitations). It gets down to features/$, simple as that. There is no such thing as brand loyalty.Clearly, I'm not in the market for another scope but I am looking forward to Dave's review of the new Siglent. I sure like my Siglent SDG2082 function generator.

author: TD-Linux
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2017, 12:16:39 am
content: Quote from: treyus30 on April 02, 2017, 10:02:53 pmIf this is the case, then I recommend staying far away from the Rigol DS1054Z. I love mine, but the FFT is useless (I have GNU Radio for my frequency domain needs). Also keep in mind that all these scopes have 8-bit sampling, oversampling will help you a lot in regards to SNR but a good audio card might still outperform it for this use case.

author: TK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2017, 02:16:19 am
content: I owned several scopes: OWON (PDS5022T --> SDS7021V) and Rigol (1052E --> 1054Z --> MSO2072A) but when I purchased and used the Agilent (Keysight) 54622D (I still own it), I sold my last Rigol and started my pursuit to get the ultimate Keysight scope and I am the happy owner of an "upgraded" EDUX1002G and a DSOX3014A. It is not only the features, it is how the instrument responds and how you feel it.Once I used a Keysight (Agilent, HP) instrument, I never looked back...Regarding the EDUX to DSOX hack, the current status is the resistor swap to change the personality to the 70MHz DSOX (Dave's hack) and the hardware mod to add missing components on the EXT TRIG input section to use it as 1-channel MSO (you can 2 analog + 1 digital channels), but there are some additional components that needs to be swapped on the frontend to bring it to 200MHz and the EDUX personalized to DSOX does not pass User Calibration. The only features left to software hack are the serial decode and BW upgrade (as far as I know, it has not been attempted yet).

author: boggis the cat
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2017, 02:51:39 am
content: Quote from: rstofer on April 03, 2017, 04:02:28 pmResponsiveness may be a relevant issue. I have not been impressed by the extremely laggy response of the Rigol models, and the MSO1074Z was awful. (Perhaps the DS1054Z is better -- I have not come across one yet.)The newer GW Instek models seem to be very responsive, so this new Siglent model that uses the same processor should be able to offer the same.Few people get to try out a lot of different oscilloscopes (and use them in general testing, which I do not) so it is worth investing the time into hunting down reviews where the person is making critical judgements. Dave is good in terms of complaining about all sorts of minor stuff, so anything significant should be picked up... 😉

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2017, 03:24:43 am
content: Quote from: boggis the cat on April 08, 2017, 02:51:39 amYou're quite correct and those issues he finds in any brand are usually corrected quickly which in some way makes Dave's vids identifying a bug only relevant for a short time, not many months or years later. The best way to find if problems still exist is to ask about them in one of the many threads.

author: boggis the cat
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2017, 05:47:13 am
content: That would be the same behaviour I have found. Tektronix 'scopes vary quite a bit, but some are terribly laggy. HP / Agilent / Keysight / [placeholder for next corporate restructure] models seem to be uniformly good in terms of control responsiveness.I wouldn't buy a Tektronix without using it a bit first, while I would be comfortable assuming any HP / [current rebrand] instrument would be usable without driving me mad.

author: snoopy
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2017, 07:20:55 am
content: I picked Keysight because trying to do SPI decode over two wires is a complete joke especially for bit banged SPI with indeterminate frame length which makes the time out feature pretty much useless. At least you have a chance with the Keysight and the external trigger being a third pin.Keysight should bite the bullet and offer a 4 channel version of this scope in the same flavour as the Rigol DS1054Z

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2017, 08:53:55 am
content: Quote from: treyus30 on April 02, 2017, 08:36:39 pmNot lame at all. I'm not sure I'd want to go replacing components inside my oscilloscope and the hack isn't even working yet.The Rigol is generally the best choice fpr $400 but the FFT is a bit useless. If FFT is a must-have then maybe it's not the answer.A Keysight with everything is expensive.The Siglent looks really nice and pricing is good, but... only two channels. That's limiting, especially for serial decoding.In short: Any of the three is a compromise.The only definite things you've mentioned you want to are "FFT" and"SNR & THD measurements of a few pieces of audio equipment"so I'm going to suggest something else: The Analog Discovery. It's a really nice piece of equipment for doing that and will handily beatallof those 'scopes at doing it, mostly because it has a 14-bit DAC (vs. 8 bits in the 'scopes). Yes, it needs a PC but on the other hand you get nice detailed Bode plotsIf you're just beginning your career it might be wise to hold off on trying to buy a 'do-everything' oscilloscope for now. Both of your choices are just released this month so nobody knows how they'll work out in practice.Of the three: The Keysight-with-all-options is probably the best, but that's going to cost alotmore.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2017, 09:04:07 am
content: Quote from: TD-Linux on April 08, 2017, 12:16:39 amI agree, those requirements more or less rule out the DS1000Z (and MSO1000Z) family. While these scopes have FFT, the sample size (and hence resolution) and speed are somewhat limited; and they don't offer CAN decoding at all.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2017, 10:09:54 am
content: Quote from: ebastler on April 08, 2017, 09:04:07 amI think the requirements that it has to be good at audioanddigital pretty much rule out anything in the $400 price range.My advice would be: You're just finishing your studies, spend the least amount of money now and learn, buy something better when you get your first job.That would mean either:a) The Siglent, accepting that two channels is very limiting for digital work and the 8-bit DAC isn't very good for audio work, orb) The Analog Discovery, accepting that it has lower bandwidth than the rest and it's not a real knobs-and-buttons oscilloscope.(or (c) Bite the bullet and spend a lot more money on something else, eg. the Keysight with all options)The OP has mentioned "FFT" and "frequency response" so (b) seems a sensible option because it's relatively cheap and excellent for audio work.(declining to vote because the jury is still out on both of those scopes as they're too new to have been reviewed properly)

author: GeorgeOfTheJungle
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2017, 11:32:06 am
content: The analog discovery 2 is cute but note that mem depth is orders of magnitude less than any of these scopes.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2017, 12:37:46 pm
content: Quote from: GeorgeOfTheJungle on April 08, 2017, 11:32:06 amI'm not saying the AD2 is a replacement for a 'scope but it has big advantages for audio work and as a learning tool for playing around with digital electronics.It's also alotcheaper than a 'scope, especially if you're a student who lives in the USA and can get the educational discount.In fact: If youcanget one for $99 and pair it with the Siglent you'll have a nice little setup for under $500. The AD2 can work as a function generator and audio analyzer, the Siglent is a real knobs-and-buttons 'scope.

author: TK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2017, 01:35:36 pm
content: I own both the Analog Discovery 2 and the Keysight EDUX1002G. I do not work with Audio applications, so I do not have the knowledge to compare both in terms of audio, but if you suggest some tests I can run, I will post the screen captures with the results. For signal generation I can use the Wavegen included in the EDUX1002G or I have a Rohde and Schrawz CMU200 (Communications Test Equipment) that can generate audio and do THD%.Even when the AD2 has 14-bit ADC, I found it to be very noisy at 10mV and lower scales (it can go as low as 10uV/Div) and the refresh rate is nothing near the EDUX1002G.For pure digital stuff like vintage computing, I use an old HP 1670G logic analyzer and if I need protocol analysis, I use the Zeroplus LAP-C 16032 (PC based USB logic analyzer) that has over 100 protocol decoders included for free in the software. I still do not have the serial decode option for the EDUX1002G ($150 for just i2c and UART seems to be overpriced).It is my understanding that the serial protocol decoder on the Keysight EDUX and DSOX series are hardware based, so you get real time decoding. I tried it on the Rigol and it is slow, but has a lot of capture memory and you can do post capture analysis. The logic analyzer on the Analog Discovery 2 works in a similar way to the Zeroplus, capture and send the data to the PC for posterior analysis, but I have not played a lot with the AD2 protocol decoders as I was already using the Zeroplus on a daily basis.The AD2 can do pattern generation on the 16 digital channels, which is a plus if you need this functionality.

author: corn11
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2017, 01:36:07 pm
content: Quote from: blueskull on April 08, 2017, 03:58:22 amThats also the experience I've made with my former Rigol DS1054Z. I don't know Siglent but I wouldn't buy a scope like the Rigol DS1054Z again because of the laggy and buggy UI.Currently I'm using an old Tek TDS320 which I've got for free. The UI of the TDS320 is also a bit laggy but the Rigol was much worse.I've used several KS scopes (2000X, 3000X, 4000X, 7000, 9000) so far and they all perform great and have a responsive UI.So I would definitely go for the KS.Maybe the 2000X is also suitable for you ? KS is running a trade in promo at the moment. You get up to 30% off when you trade in a working scope (depending on the scope you want and the bandwidth of the scope you trade in). I'm also thinking about getting a 2000X as a little self-reward for finishing my thesis

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2017, 03:34:01 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on April 08, 2017, 10:09:54 amWell, the new Siglent X-E model might be a better fit for this particular set of requirements. While only 2 channels, it does come with CAN decoding & triggering, and supposedly has a stronger FFT. To be confirmed when actual tests appear, of course, so I would wait for a few weeks.I agree that high definition audio work (THD and noise) is another matter entirely; I recommend using a sound card with 24 bits DAC/ADC for that.

author: AndyP
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2017, 03:57:13 pm
content: I settled on the MicSig TO1104 a few months ago (8" tablet format, 4 channel, 100MHz, deepish memory at 28Mpts similar Rigol), can be battery powered, serial decoders just about available, FFT, interface faster than Rigol (I've not tried the siglent).No mixed signal option but I use a 16 channel 400MHz cheap usb offering for this, also it has no signal generator, I've not looked the price up recently.The Keysight was appealing but I do like 4 channels 2 for the serial decoder and 2 for other signals, also I find the keysight memory too shallow.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2017, 04:36:37 pm
content: Yeah the Micsig scopes are interesting as well. I'm still considering getting one myself.

author: treyus30
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: May 22, 2017, 11:42:37 pm
content: I just now checked up on this thread and wanted to add that I did use the Analog Discovery about a year ago for a class and hated it.The breadboard-esque connections feel so cheap and are a pain to keep organized, sometimes resulting in loose connections... and the software, while full of features, can be a pain in the ass to use. Plus it needs to be paired with a computer, which just adds to the messy feeling of the device. Also, as somebody happened to mention, I do recall experiencing some noise issues.That said, I still think it would be a decent backup device to havein additionto a self-contained scope.So the Analog Discovery is a no-go for me without first having a real scope.---Furthermore, if you guys think a higher end scope would fit me better, Iamwilling to look at more expensive ones... Up to $1000 out the door let's say.