[Fixed] Forced to install Windows 10? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: grumpydoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 03, 2017, 02:31:14 pm
content: I have never been a big Microsoft fan despite many years as a software developer on Windows platforms - I grew up with Unix and have never been totally comfortable with Redmond's toys.My main desktop/server runs Scientific Linux, the VPS I rent - Centos, the routers, AP's and infrastructure are either OpenWRT, Centos or SL as appropriate/convenient.I do, however maintain a Windows machine for my own use where there are applications I want to use which don't run on Linux (Photoshop, Office, some video editing stuff and a few others) and the family machines are Windows largely so I don't have to explain why LibreOffice isn't terribly good or why my wife can't use the work VPN etc.I have avoided Windows 10 thus far except for one rarely used laptop; too much calling home, too little control over the update processMy machine runs Windows 7 as do the others in the house. It has been fine, nothing wrong with either the hardware or (mostly) the software. Until, that is, Windows update decided to vomit all over the hard drive.I allowed a couple of benign sounding updates. The result is a machine where Firefox crashes randomly, often on startup (it won't load the EEVBlog pages for example), something screwy happens to the Ethernet card so Linux (it's dual boot) can't get a network address without a hard power cycle, update borked all its databases so I had to reset those, the video card is screwed so nothing "graphical" will start at all for about 15 minutes ("loading resources" seems to be the issue) and everything runs extremely s...l...o....w......l.........y.<rant>Why the hell are M$ "diagnostic" tools so useless, according to them my machine is in perfect health. Even if I do manage to spot what looks like a CPU or I/O hog it tends to be "svhost" or something equally multifunctional and ambiguous, the event log is useless, restore points (where not corrupt as in this case) do not usually get back enough state to make the problem better - I can't recall a single instance where rolling back to a restore point has fixed anything. Error messages often fail to identify the problem, or even the subsystem (my (least) favourite, years ago on NT server was a dialog box which simply stated "The parameter is wrong" - some background task somewhere was unhappy but with no way to find out what, or what it was unhappy about).</rant>I have fixed the Update database, re-registered broken DLL's, scanned for viruses and tried to fall back to the last good restore point (which failed), but, if anything, the machine is worse.I do have an unused W7 licence key and media so I can re-install W7 but doing so from scratch will mean having to re-install several dozen packages many of which I have long lost the licence key for.So, it looks like I might have to bite the bullet and upgrade to W10. That will have to be "Pro" version so as to have at least a little control over updates and full retail so as to be able to do it as an upgrade (normally I buy OEM copies of M$ operating systems but they only support fresh installs) - so that won't be cheapI suspect that it is my only option though if I don't want to re-install a load of stuff.At least it will be an excuse to copy everything on the system disk to an SSD.I realise my description of the problem is vague. I have virus checked the machine but the problem definitely started after the broken update so I'm not really thinking virus. Does anyone have any favourite half decent (not to mention free) diagnostic tools which might shed any light?

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 03, 2017, 02:37:26 pm
content: Unless you do it for the sake of it, it's often easier to just do a fully fresh installation of Windows and be done with it. If you want to avoid a hassle updating afterwards, you can use a tool like WSUS Offline to prepare the updates in advance, or even slipstream it into your image.If you go the Windows 10 route, try to find Windows 10 Enterprise, Education or Server. Those will have the option to actually turn off Telemetry, other than what's required for updates.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 03, 2017, 02:46:41 pm
content: Quote from: grumpydoc on November 03, 2017, 02:31:14 pmAre you going to buy it? You still can make a free upgrade from W7. Pro and ultimate W7 becomes W10 pro, home -> home.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 03, 2017, 02:48:14 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on November 03, 2017, 02:37:26 pmWorks only if you are going to pirating route with KMS server and reactivations.

author: grumpydoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 03, 2017, 02:49:03 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on November 03, 2017, 02:37:26 pmNormally I have a policy of always doing a fresh install - less hassle in the long run asupdates often pick up legacy problems. My Linux boxes sometimes wind up being such a mish-mash of self applied patches and newer versions of various bits and pieces that auto-update is impossible.However this machine has acquired enough that reinstalling stuff will take forever. I want to at least start with an upgrade - if that doesn't work I can scrub it and start from fresh, it just won't be pleasant or inexpensive. I'm particularly miffed that I might not be able to reinstall my old copy of Photoshop CS2 (which does averythingIneed) as it is now impossible to get a traditional "perpetual" licence for Photoshop.

author: grumpydoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 03, 2017, 02:51:33 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on November 03, 2017, 02:46:41 pmThe W7 on that machine was Home Premium so I'd still have to splash out for Pro to get the group policy editor.Quote from: wraper on November 03, 2017, 02:48:14 pmServer might work but it's overkill, mind blowingly expensive and from what I remember when I was in software dev not that great as a desktop OS.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 03, 2017, 02:54:42 pm
content: Quote from: grumpydoc on November 03, 2017, 02:49:03 pmI can fully understand your reasoning. Unfortunately, the very reason not to want to reinstall is a good reason to actually reinstall. A complex installation is more likely to show the symptoms you have. Have you looked at Sysinternals?https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/sysinternals/Also, have you seen this? Even though these specific links may be dead, it's worth pursuing, as many people have used this.http://www.redmondpie.com/download-adobe-photoshop-cs2-for-free-legally-while-you-still-can/

author: Tomorokoshi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 03, 2017, 02:57:05 pm
content: Quote from: grumpydoc on November 03, 2017, 02:31:14 pmOne problem that I can't find a solution for (in Windows 7 anyway) is that while Task Manager ostensibly shows how much CPU time Tasks use, it does not properly show how much CPU time goes to Services. Some applications spread things out across so many tasks and services that it's hard to track down how much time any one feature or application is using. I was able to figure out that browsers, particularly Firefox, and Java tend to throw a lot into services, so when the system is generically slow that may be a part of it.Of course, any anti-virus software, which I now consider to be in and of itself a virus as well, drives a lot of disk activity anytime anything is done by anything that transfers data - meaning that browsers running junk Java software in the background service will constantly yank the chain of the anti-virus software, making everything slow.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 03, 2017, 03:01:45 pm
content: Depends what you do with it but I pretty much entirely use macOS and remote CentOS machines in AWS now. I do have a windows desktop machine with windows 10 and it's a misbehaving bastard from hell which has burned days of my life now. I've actually downloaded windows 8.1 to install on it (with classic start) as that was the last decent stable version of windows but I just can't be arsed. I'd rather spend my energy porting my workflow away from it.

author: grumpydoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 03, 2017, 03:17:56 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on November 03, 2017, 02:54:42 pmYes, I know about the sysinternals stuff - in fact I used it back when it was "NT Internals", possibly the process explorer will be more "honest" than task manager.As to install vs upgrade - W7 -> W10 will be pretty much a wholesale replacement on the OS side and if the upgrade fails to restore sanity at least I will know there is no choice but to install from scratch so I don't think I loose much (except the fifty quid price hike)QuoteInteresting, suggests my old CS2 key might not work even if I can find it without applying for a new one.

author: nixfu
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 03, 2017, 03:26:15 pm
content: > grew up with Unix and have never been totally comfortable with Redmond's toys.Best thing you can do on Windows 10, is to install the Windows Subsystem for Linux(recommend Ubuntu version its most mature and functional), and then you can have an Ubuntu shell environment available as part of Windows.It is the only thing that makes using Windows tolerable at work to me as a Linux guy.https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/commandline/wsl/about

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 03, 2017, 03:35:49 pm
content: The best thing to do is run several Windows installations in several virtual machines, don't store any data inside the VM and make snapshots. If a Windows VM starts to misbehave it is fixed in seconds by restoring the last snapshot.

author: GreggD
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 03, 2017, 03:52:07 pm
content: Clone the hard drive. Set the old one aside to keep it as backup. Update the cloned drive to Win10. I use HDclone pro to clone a drive to one on usb dongle.

author: grumpydoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 03, 2017, 03:53:35 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on November 03, 2017, 03:35:49 pmNot a bad idea.I have come to the conclusion that the only way to create a "restore" point which will actually work is to clone the disk image before any major change but it's too much of a hassle most of the time, especially for "minor" stuff.The problem that I encountered the last time I looked at running Windows in a VM was the fact that hardware access/emulation is not that great if trying to use Windows in a VM as a Windows Desktop on bare metal substitute - no access to the GPU for acceleration or a soundcard emulation that is so old (16 bit Sound Blaster) no modern Windows version will talk to it. Neither of which matter for most server applications, of course.I might revisit this and see if it has improved since I last looked.Not too convinced that I would want to run Ubuntu on W10, partly because I'm not convinced I want to run Ubuntu at all (being more a RedHat type of guy), but also because of experience with CygWin which, while being quite useful, always struck me as a bit of a bodge.Quote from: GreggD on November 03, 2017, 03:52:07 pmThat is, in fact, the plan.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 03, 2017, 04:07:22 pm
content: Quote from: grumpydoc on November 03, 2017, 03:53:35 pmYou need to have the right hardware for proper passthrough.

author: GreggD
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 03, 2017, 04:15:50 pm
content: I keep several cloned drives as backups. I got hit with ransomware asking for bit coins. Diden't finish reading the screen. Just unplugged the drive put in the cloned drive from 2 days ago. Was up in 2 minuets. I keep my drive hanging out the side of the pc for quick axcess. Put the encrypted drive on usb dongle and found the .pcb file un-encryped, lost nothing. KEEP BACKUPS !

author: grumpydoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 03, 2017, 04:24:02 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on November 03, 2017, 04:07:22 pmFairly certain that I don't but I suspect that things will have changed as I last looked at this about 3-4 years ago when I installed this machine.Quote from: GreggD on November 03, 2017, 04:15:50 pmBackups of DATA - have those.But when I set-up the back-up scheme I assumed OS and software would be re-installable from original media - possibly that assumption needs revisiting.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 03, 2017, 04:25:30 pm
content: Quote from: GreggD on November 03, 2017, 04:15:50 pmPreferably also keep a few well away from your computer.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 03, 2017, 04:31:23 pm
content: Quote from: grumpydoc on November 03, 2017, 04:24:02 pmCheck under Advanced Technologies in the Intel specifications for chips. There are new technologies, but passthrough has been around for a while. I think VT-d is the one you want, but that seems to be typically used in conjunction with other VM technologies.https://ark.intel.com/products/126684/Intel-Core-i7-8700K-Processor-12M-Cache-up-to-4_70-GHzhttps://www.reddit.com/r/pcmasterrace/comments/2z0evz/gpu_passthrough_or_how_to_play_any_game_at_near/

author: grumpydoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 03, 2017, 04:51:44 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on November 03, 2017, 04:31:23 pmThe problem machine is an i7-4790K, so VT-d should work there, but........... the machine where I would be interested in setting up VM's has an i7-3770T, so no dice with that one and that's the machine that I played around with when looking into this three or four years ago.I'm sort-of trying to avoid turning this into a major hardware re-jig, aswellas a mammoth software install fest

author: rdl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 03, 2017, 05:18:47 pm
content: Don't bother with cloning the existing drive at first. Buy a new SSD and install Win 7 on it fresh. Let it update (security updates only). You also might not want to activate until everything is working (just skip entering the CoA during install). You can actually copy the necessary files from the old install of Windows and "activate offline" so to speak. After Windows is up and running correctly, copy the old programs over and see if they run without being installed. I've found this works in most cases. I've never used much Adobe stuff though. The one time I did, I can only describe their software as horrible.Fortunately, I've found free or mostly free software that will run in portable mode or close to it for just about everything I need to do. All of which resides in a folder on a drive completely separate from the OS drive. This makes reinstalling Windows pretty simple.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 03, 2017, 05:25:29 pm
content: Quote from: rdl on November 03, 2017, 05:18:47 pmAdobe software is pretty good when it comes to core functionality. When it comes to licencing or key management or anything else surrounding their core functionality, things are not so great.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 03, 2017, 05:42:44 pm
content: Quote from: grumpydoc on November 03, 2017, 04:51:44 pmAccording to Intel the i7-3770T has support for virtualisation. I think it will be very hard to find an Intel CPU you would use nowadays which doesn't support virtualisation. Virtualbox has made massive improvements in the last couple of years so I think you are making a bigger problem out of it then necessary.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 03, 2017, 05:53:06 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on November 03, 2017, 05:42:44 pmIntel has a whole host of technologies that work in conjunction with virtualisation. Various processors mix various technologies. Some will have VT-x, but no VT-d. The latter is needed for convenient passthrough. Not all the virtualisation support is created equal.You do seem to be right about the i7-3770T also supporting VT-d, which is nice.

author: grumpydoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 03, 2017, 05:57:08 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on November 03, 2017, 05:42:44 pmHmmm, I thought that it did not but checking the Intel website you are correct. Interesting........I guess you need support in the Kernel & VM wrapper which is possibly where I ran afoul of getting it to work last time.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 03, 2017, 06:26:04 pm
content: VT-x / VT-d usually needs explicitly enabling in the BIOS as well.

author: IanJ
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 03, 2017, 06:34:22 pm
content: Quote from: GreggD on November 03, 2017, 04:15:50 pmYup, similar situ here.......I have been using IFW (Image For Windows) for years, I run a full backup across my Lan to a NAS every month or so, takes about 30mins. Do this on all Win PC's on my network. Especially useful on my main Dev PC which would take forever to re-build via re-install.I've had drive failures/corruption and knackered OS's 2 or 3 times.......just copy the backup file to a usb drive, boot the IFW restore app off it and 20 mins later back up and running again.Ian.

author: Red Squirrel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 03, 2017, 08:13:08 pm
content: I have a windows 7 machine I use for games, and the odd ball windows 7 VM for certain tasks but I've been wanting to be in a mostly Linux environment myself. I am not a fan at all of windows 10, not just because of the telemetry and forced updates and other crap like that, but just because of the look and feel. I just find it's terrible. Too much white, and everything is too big and blocky. I suppose it's fine if you're running a 4k monitor, but on a HD monitor some dialogs are so big they take up the whole screen, no reason for that. It's just a terrible UI all round. Not as bad as windows 8 though.I ended up disabling updates on my Windows 7 machine to be extra sure I don't get windows 10 pushed to me. I should probably put that machine on a separate vlan given the potential security risk of having a non updated windows machine on my network.

author: grumpydoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 04, 2017, 01:12:27 pm
content: As I said I am trying to avoid this becoming the excuse for a mammoth and costly re-jig of my home computing - not to say that I would not welcome a mammoth re-jig of my home computing but money is tighter than I'd like following some costly (and serially delayed because of the cost until we had no choice) work on the house.Once (self imposed) constraint is that I do not want the main server box to be either too large nor, preferably, too noisy because it lives in the home office, right next to where I work in the evenings. The existing system is as noisy as I can tolerate - my (cheapo) sound meter says 46dB SPL at the half metre or so that the machine sits from my head. I probably could move it under the desk which would help but I don't really want to go any louder than the current box.At present the case is a Morex Venus 669 into which 6 hard drives (2x4TB, 2x 6TB and 2x2TB 2.5") are squeezed as well as a P8H77-I motherboard and 16G of RAM - given that the case is just 230 x 336 x 200 mm that does not seem too bad. It runs the email & IMAP server, web server (temporarily defunct) SMB and NFS. It also used to run the VPN service but that got moved to the APU which also now hosts the web side of my webmail.I know that it is not best practice to use a server as a desktop but it is also my main day-to-day machine really because it is the one that I don't have to boot up because it runs 24/7.If I were to add in the other functions that the "video editing & Photoshop" machine takes care of I would need a decent video card as well. The Morex would have no problem with this but I'm not aware of a suitable modern NAS enclosure that would accommodate 8 bays and a graphics card in a ~ 220mm tall package.Something like theSilverStone DS380might be a starting point (although some reviewers don't like the airflow in this case) but it won't fit a full length graphics card as far as I can see and it is much taller then the Morex so I would have difficulty finding a hole for it.I think it might be time to surf the hardware sites again.....

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 04, 2017, 01:53:16 pm
content: Quote from: Red Squirrel on November 03, 2017, 08:13:08 pmWindows 10 is not pushed for more than a year as that free upgrade offer expired. Although it still can be done manually as "free upgrade for people who use assistive technologies" till December 31.

author: grumpydoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 04, 2017, 03:15:17 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on November 04, 2017, 01:53:16 pmYes, I came across that just now.That would seem to provide a risk free path - I can clone the HDD, then upgrade to Windows 10. If that fixes the problems I can upgrade to Win 10 Pro to enable the group policy editor.It doesn't (I think) save me any money but it would, at least, mean that I can make sure things work before parting with any.Having read around the subject again VT-d is not the answer to running Windows 10 as a guest as it merely allows one guest direct access to a PCI resource, devices cannot be shared.Para-virtualization and device emulation with virtio looks like a better way to go in terms of efficiency but the list of emulated devices is very short and only include very basic VGA cards - so a non starter if trying to use the GPU for video rendering.

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 04, 2017, 06:01:21 pm
content: I don't know if you still want to try to get the old W7 working properly again, but I have found this useful in the past when I had some severe problems:http://www.tweaking.com/content/page/windows_repair_all_in_one.htmlSome people are skeptical when it comes to these kinds of tools, but this one has saved me from reinstalling my OS from scratch a couple of times. It depends on the problem of course. This might not fix any of yours but it is worth a try.

author: grumpydoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 04, 2017, 10:21:48 pm
content: Quote from: Lightages on November 04, 2017, 06:01:21 pmYes I am also slightly sceptical about these tools, but I think if you can clone the system first there is little to loose from giving anything a go.That said my default method for restoring a seriously damaged system would be - put disk in Linux machine (or use a live CD or Linux rescue disk), pull off important data, reinstall.However, clearly, there are times that you want to preserve the system without a reinstall if at all possible.This afternoon two things have come to light:The first is that I have a backup image of the disk that I had forgotten about. It's a year old but that will cover 98% of what I need to get back and the rest should be on other backups. The important thing is that it will cover 100% of the paid for & licensed software. Well, there's one exception but - in that case - I know I can download it from the vendor site and I just have to give it the log-in credentials; it will pull its key down and activate automatically..The second is that, when I set about cloning the disk it became obvious that the underlying problem might be a hardware failure - lots of unrecoverable read errors. Only the Windows partition is affected so possibly a corrupted write due to power failure. It's pathetic, given that I live in a medium sized town in the UK Midlands but a 10-30 minute loss of power occurs here two or three times per year. I don't run this machine 24/7 but am not infrequently lazy about powering it down and we did have a power cut a bit before the last update.So, the current plan is to pull all the data off so that it is safe in case of further hardware blips, then restore the old image and see where I get to. If it is just one group of sectors the auto reallocation should kick in.Long term I will ditch the drive but if I'm lucky I will get long enough out of it to shop around for an SSD replacement.

author: grumpydoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 06, 2017, 11:54:09 pm
content: Quote from: grumpydoc on November 04, 2017, 10:21:48 pmUpdate - things seem fixed (for now; I am considering that the disk is on borrowed time).Old image restored and back up & running with Windows 7 - a couple of things to reinstall but mostly no harm done.Some observations1: Disk hardware errors in the Event log might bear no resemblance to where they are really coming from (apparently the first hard drive is "ATAPI device 3", maybe).2: CHKDSK is useless.My first thought (after pulling as much data from the partition as possible) was to run chkdsk and see if that could fix the errors by overwriting the required metadata and forcing the drive to reallocate the sectors.First off - from disk manager, selecting chkdsk says that it neds to reboot but when it does so just briefly flashes "drive clean" - I gather there are ways to do it from safe mode or recovery console but I used the Linux utilities to mark the disk as needing a check.2a: chkdsk says it is "repairing" stuff but nothing much seems to happen - the same errors were there on a repeat run.In the end I zeroed out the drive using dd and then restored the old image. I re-ran chkdsk and it is fine so the drive has sorted itself. However, as noted above, I fully expect that this state of affairs will not last so an SSD replacement is on its way - in fact would be here if Yodel were not so anal about delivering to the neighbours.3: SMART is useless (well, it was in this case at any rate). Despite the drive reporting unrecoverable read errors SMART data said all was well and that no errors had been logged. Huh?In fact after the exercise SMART data says that there are no reallocated sectors. Which is odd given that the pending count hit 49 at one point. Maybe it really did manage to write them back correctly but I'm not all that sure.....

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 07, 2017, 06:52:19 pm
content: Good on you for fixing it.Talking of Windows 10. I might upgrade my parent's PC, while there's still time, as there will come a point when noting works with Windows 7.

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 07, 2017, 09:48:17 pm
content: Quote from: Hero999 on November 07, 2017, 06:52:19 pmDo your parents need anything more than email, browser, youtube, FB etc? If not, then consider NOT going to W10. Linux will do all of that for free, without spying, and can be done so that almost no re-learning is needed.You should make your parents aware of the spying of W10 before you just "upgrade" their computer. You might find that older people are not happy with someone else watching them type, listen to their conversations, etc, without them knowing. They also might not be happy having their computer use being interrupted randomly, for many minutes or sometimes hours, for updates to install without their permission.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 07, 2017, 11:14:59 pm
content: Quote from: Lightages on November 07, 2017, 09:48:17 pmYes I'm aware of the fact that Linux will do all of that (I use it myself at home) but can't see my dad getting on with it.As far as privacy is concerned: what about his Internet service provider spying on him? I feel that's much more of an issue than Microsoft.The random updates can be turned of with hacks, so I don't see how that's an issue.

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 07, 2017, 11:42:33 pm
content: Just to be sure, so you know, Microsoft themselves have said that it is impossible to stop all Win10 spying. Some of it is built into the kernel itself.As far as spying from providers, just use something like TOR, or a VPN and don't connect to anything that does not allow https. Just some things you can do. You can't deny W10 from spying, period.

author: rdl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 07, 2017, 11:51:14 pm
content: Quote from: Hero999 on November 07, 2017, 06:52:19 pmWhat do they do that might require upgrading? Are you just going to upgrade the OS?My best computer was assembled in 2012. For the last three years I've been pondering building a new one but just can't come up with a reason good enough.I think I might this year though because sooner or later Skylake processors are going to become hard to find and I don't know if Windows 7 is viable on anything newer.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 08, 2017, 08:51:57 am
content: Quote from: Lightages on November 07, 2017, 11:42:33 pmA good hardware firewall could also block MS but he's got cable TV too, which means more spyware, irrespective of the Internet.Quote from: rdl on November 07, 2017, 11:51:14 pmThe main reason for the upgrade would be for continued security updates.I know what you mean about not bothering to upgrade. My home PC is 2006 vintage. The only upgrades have been a solid state hard drive and RAM. It works fine and does what I want, so I have no intention of upgrading.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 08, 2017, 02:22:13 pm
content: A recent CVE involving the Intel hardware platform's separate management processor made me swear off ever buying an Intel machine for my own use.Its that bad.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 08, 2017, 05:26:14 pm
content: Quote from: Hero999 on November 07, 2017, 11:14:59 pmJust get a decent VPN. That should fix any issues. Set it at the router and every device connected will be protected from ISP mingling. If applied on a device level, it would have helped mitigate the recent WPA vulnerability too.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 08, 2017, 05:30:51 pm
content: Quote from: Lightages on November 07, 2017, 11:42:33 pmThe best option would be either the Education or Enterprise edition of Windows 10, or Server 2016. Those versions allow you to set the telemetry level to 0, which means only information about updates is collected for the sake of updating itself. You can be fairly sure Microsoft honours that setting, because the institutions which demanded it won't play nice if they find out they've been had. Maybe Microsoft can EULA itself out of that one in the US, but that won't save them in the EU. The one thing Microsoft fears is an adversary with deep pockets and more political leverage than they have.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 08, 2017, 05:33:05 pm
content: Quote from: cdev on November 08, 2017, 02:22:13 pmI hate to burst that bubble, but AMD has an equivalent. It's called TrustZone and is basically an ARM processor built into your main processor. It does pretty much the same thing as Intel's ME does. It's the same bad idea in the sense that it provides a secondary environment that is a black box for the system it's part of, and therefore a black box for the user.Here's a link to a page and a video with a high degree of buzzword bingo.http://www.amd.com/en-us/innovations/software-technologies/security

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 08, 2017, 06:36:31 pm
content: Indeed. This is the answer:https://raptorcs.com/content/TL2WK2/intro.html

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 08, 2017, 07:57:51 pm
content: Nomatter who has them, unremovable 'management' hardware devices remind me too much of the Borg for comfort.Quote from: Mr. Scram on November 08, 2017, 05:33:05 pm

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 08, 2017, 08:16:47 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on November 08, 2017, 06:36:31 pmOh my. It's beyond "have a play with" money and also doesn't run a few of the things I unfortunately require, but if you have some cash to burn, that looks like an excellent toy.I assume ordering one of these or even visiting the site will get your name added to all the "of elevated interest" lists, but that doesn't take much to begin with.http://www.zdnet.com/article/nsa-targets-sysadmin-personal-accounts-to-exploit-networks/https://www.digitaltrends.com/computing/nsa-labels-linux-tails-users-extremists/

author: technix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 08, 2017, 08:33:48 pm
content: Microsoft intend to force shove Windows 10 down every user’s throats. This is why to me Windows is entirely within the virtual machine territory.If you end up having to pirate something, pirating macOS (get a Hackintosh) may carry a better user experience than Windows 10 due to its reduced spying (at least not in the kernel level: the kernel of macOS is open source and you technically can rebuild the kernel from source, after making any modifications.) And Apple have better support to mixed HDD/SSD systems and HiDPI monitors (4K and up.) My daily driver rely on those features.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 08, 2017, 08:37:26 pm
content: Quote from: technix on November 08, 2017, 08:33:48 pmBetter support? In what way?If you're going to pirate stuff anyway, you might as well pirate Server 2016 or an Education or Enterprise edition. Although you inevitably introduce news risks and vectors by using pirated software.

author: technix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 08, 2017, 08:49:18 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on November 08, 2017, 08:37:26 pmFusion Drive for mixed HDD/SSD systems, and Retina Display for high-DPI monitors.Fusion Drive allows you to use the space of the sum of SSD and HDD in the system. The kernel will move hot data in the SSD while move cold data into HDD as needed.Retina Display scales display elements to match the DPI of the monitor on a much lower level than most other OS, resulting a much prettier HiDPI user interface.Also, macOS is a fork of BSD. Being UNIX its kernel is much more reliable than Windows. My installations of macOS reboots only when a kernel update ir a hardware modification is in order. It is my daily driver. It can still record uptime of months even under constant interactive use.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 08, 2017, 08:53:35 pm
content: Quote from: technix on November 08, 2017, 08:49:18 pmI think Intel offers the same. You can add an SSD and the system will work out what files are used most.I'm not sure about the kernels. I see plenty of Windows Servers with uptimes measured in months. That has been same kernel as the desktop stuff for a while now. Besides, uptime isn't as cool as it used to be. Timely patching is.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 08, 2017, 11:55:17 pm
content: Or better yet, run open-source Linux without systemd and with a low overhead display manager.Your machine will run much faster and you'll get more work done.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 09, 2017, 12:16:43 am
content: So FreeBSD with i3Actually now I look back at what I’ve written it’s not such a bad idea.(Not a fan of systemd or much of the Linux boot process)

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 09, 2017, 12:22:23 am
content: Quote from: cdev on November 08, 2017, 11:55:17 pmI literally won't get any work done, due to specific constraints. Horses for courses.

author: technix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 09, 2017, 07:36:48 am
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on November 08, 2017, 08:53:35 pmI have been bitten by Intel’s offerings. It had a 64GB SSD cap, the useable space is equal to that of the HDD, and it is fragile AF.Linux’s bcache is a lot better without the SSD capacity cap and is adequately robust. Although you still lose the SSD space in total useable storage.Windows 10 now forces reboots. Somehow in Windows almost all system update requires a reboot. On both macOS and Linux unless the kernel or init is being touched no reboot is needed whatsoever.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 09, 2017, 08:03:39 am
content: My Mac goes into a coma and the WDT fires if I shut the lid about 1 in 10 times. You win some and lose some. It merely takes the title of least painful desktop and least likely to fuck up hardware.The only truly reliable machines I have under my command are HP DL series with CentOS and they don’t have a desktop. They literally never do anything untoward. Even when some turdblossom wrote a java fork bomb by accident when parallelising an operation and managed to create a few tens of thousands of threads across 50 nodes, nope hardly even noticed it.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 09, 2017, 08:16:13 am
content: Quote from: technix on November 09, 2017, 07:36:48 amAgain, uptime isn't as cool as it used to be.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 09, 2017, 08:25:05 am
content: Very true. Uptime is nothing to be proud of and never was. Patched up kit that can handle multiple node outages is something to be proud of. If it’s a desktop machine, who cares as long as it’s patched.

author: rdl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 09, 2017, 09:00:16 am
content: It's just an annoyance, but I don't get bothered by it much anymore. I only let it update when it's convenient for me. I don't have the service running constantly, just start it up once a month to get the security rollup then shut it down till next time.

author: grumpydoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 09, 2017, 09:46:22 am
content: Quote from: bd139 on November 09, 2017, 08:25:05 amIt's not so much the uptime (as you say, not really an issue on a desktop system), but the inconvenience.I am the sort of person who can quite easily find myself bashing out an essay (or bit of software) in an all nighter just before the deadline - yes, yes, I know- but a forced update and couple of reboots in when I am already stressed is not good!

author: technix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 09, 2017, 01:18:06 pm
content: Quote from: grumpydoc on November 09, 2017, 09:46:22 amThis is the thing macOS and Linux does NOT do. It will not force install any updates. macOS will be naggy once a day but you can safely discard it.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 09, 2017, 02:49:47 pm
content: Quote from: technix on November 09, 2017, 01:18:06 pmI've never had Windows reboot on me if I didn't tell it that I could. It seems mostly to be a matter of PEBCAK.

author: grumpydoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 09, 2017, 03:50:22 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on November 09, 2017, 02:49:47 pmWindows 10 will.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 09, 2017, 03:58:07 pm
content: Quote from: grumpydoc on November 09, 2017, 03:50:22 pmIt hasn't so far, with plenty of miles on the clockSometimes it needs some tough love, but few OSs don't.Note that I'm not denying Windows 10 and the attempts to upgrade people to it haven't been intrusive. They absolutely have and it was dreadful behaviour on Microsoft's part.

author: grumpydoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 09, 2017, 04:23:46 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on November 09, 2017, 03:58:07 pmMaybe they tamed that with the latest update but before then I remember at least two occasions my laptop forcibly rebooted. there was a countdown timer and a bit of notice but no way that I could see to prevent it happening.I rarely use that laptop (as it does not live in my main residence) so it probably had a whole bunch of updates at the same time.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 09, 2017, 05:24:07 pm
content: It always goes off when you've got three VMs running and 11 copies of Visual Studio open and just literally reproduced that shitty bug after three days of config hunting and crawling through no documentation.

author: technix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 09, 2017, 06:05:49 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on November 09, 2017, 02:49:47 pmWay too many times had Windows gave me the 30 second countdown towards update reboot when I was knee deep in Eclipse or Atmel Studio banging out code. That thing is intrusive AF and I usually lose track of things when it comes back up.Annoying even more when I tried to reproduce an electrically-induced code bug when this pops up. To trigger the bug itself requires some Goldilocks condition that takes a lot of tries. Breaking the flow here will render me unable to fix the bug.