A more reliable replacement for Brymen BM869S? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: andrejr
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2024, 09:06:39 pm
content: I've had the Brymen BM869S since 2016, bought on the recommendation of this very forum, and it's served me well. I used it very carefully, for low voltages mostly 99% of the time, and was quite satisfied.However, recently, anything AC (voltage, frequency, current mA and A) stopped working, and I need to find a replacement. I used practically all of the meter's functions, some to a lesser extent (% for 4-20mA I used maybe twice).What would be a worthy replacement? I don't mind if it's a bit more expensive, and I would be very happy if it was physically smaller (my main complaint for the 869s, except for the newly found unreliability).

author: coromonadalix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2024, 09:29:53 pm
content: surely something happened to render this meter unreliable .... in ac not dc ? your story seem incomplete ?since it still work in dc ...well you have the 7xx series who came out ...

author: andrejr
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2024, 10:15:30 pm
content: It's a true RMS meter, with an AD636 RMS-to-DC converter. I'm guessing that either that died, or the surrounding circuitry (passives + tl062s). But, you know, that's very hard to fix when you don't have a working meter to do it, right? Besides, that chip's no longer produced, so I can only buy it for ~25eur on shady Ebay listings, who knows what I'll get. I guess I'll try fixing it, when I get another, more reliable, meter.As for what killed it, zero clue. I was diagnosing some old audio mixer, quite low voltage (+-18V, +48V phantom, 230V supply), just checking voltages (not currents). The meter worked fine. The next day I wanted to continue, and the meter was dead. It was never exposed to any abuse, just low voltage stuff with an occasional SMPS PSU diagnostic, way below its max ratings. I rarely used the current modes (maybe 10 times total) and never came even close to blowing fuses. I have a strong feeling that the meter dying is purely because of its inherent faults (when you search online, I'm not the first with this issue), and in no way because of a hard life or plain misuse. I used the meter once or twice a month, really.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2024, 10:18:00 pm
content: I know this sounds dumb, but... Have you checked the fuses?

author: andrejr
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2024, 10:24:52 pm
content: Of course I did, with my shitty little yellow meter I got in elementary school 20 years ago that somehow still works. Both fuses are completely fine. No scorched or overheating (I have an IR camera) components inside either, and a new battery doesn't help.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2024, 10:31:16 pm
content: Have you tried banging it against the table or a wall?

author: andrejr
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2024, 10:37:15 pm
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on December 22, 2024, 10:31:16 pmHah, of course I did. Also freezing the insides w/ computer duster upside down. Didn't help.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2024, 10:38:55 pm
content: Percussive maintenance! Hit it harder! 😉

author: andrejr
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2024, 10:42:55 pm
content: Btw this is what happens when you switch it to any AC mode with nothing connected (actually, whatever you connect), it goes through the ranges and ends up in O.L. Also, DC measurements are quite slow.https://imgur.com/a/RyZX1iG

author: pope
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2024, 11:12:43 pm
content: Quote from: andrejr on December 22, 2024, 10:37:15 pmI can;t be of any help but it's the first time hearing about freezing the insides. What's the reason behind it?

author: andrejr
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2024, 11:17:51 pm
content: Finding broken solder joints and / or bond wire joints through thermal shock; also works for cracks in resistors and similar. Of course, helps detect thermal effects of any kind.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2024, 11:44:36 pm
content: Did you test the fuses for continuity, or did you also check resistance value? Have you checked the fusible resistors?

author: mwb1100
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2024, 12:05:09 am
content: Quote from: andrejr on December 22, 2024, 09:06:39 pmIf you use nearly all of the functions on the BM869s you might want to consider buying another in spite of the 6 year lifespan for this particular one. Even buying a second (maybe even third) BM869s will be less of an outlay than one similarly spec'ed Fluke.But if the experience has soured you on Brymen, you might look at Fluke 287/289 if the display isn't too slow for your tastes. Hioki meters seem to be to be well regarded here (though I have no experience with them). The DT4281/DT4282 appear to have a similar feature set to the BM869s.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2024, 12:09:59 am
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on December 22, 2024, 11:44:36 pmFuses won't affect voltage in any way.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2024, 12:44:52 am
content: Quote from: andrejr on December 22, 2024, 09:06:39 pmThat's too bad. I bought my first one in 2015. Brymen provided me a second one in 2018 that I have used for several destructive tests. I'm still frequently using both meters. I've looked for something brand new that I like more than the BM869s but haven't come across anything yet. Keep us posted on what you end up with.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2024, 12:56:27 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on December 23, 2024, 12:09:59 amThey will if they're bad.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2024, 01:01:42 am
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on December 23, 2024, 12:56:27 amWhy?

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2024, 02:26:01 am
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on December 23, 2024, 01:01:42 amPossibly related from the manual:QuoteI've seen a couple handheld meters with fuses that weren't exactly blown that did weird stuff that sounds similar to what he described. I know it's rare and weird, but weirder things have happened. Okay, it was the same meter twice, but it was still the fuses.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2024, 03:24:23 am
content: Even if you expand the term "fuses" to include the surge resistors, I don't think that there are any in this meter that would blow and cause only an AC problem let alone the type of AC problem we're looking at here. A problem in the TRMS converter circuit does seem pretty likely, although perhaps there is some way a switch contact could cause this.The AD636 is only obsolete in the TO-100 package and is still available in the CDIP variety AFAIK for about $50. The choice of TO-100 here seems pretty bizarre as there are much higher precision--and older--designs using the CDIP variety. Do the later model 869S use a different TRMS converter? It's probably not cost effective to replace the AD636 as they're expensive, that may not be the problem and even if it is, there are no available calibration instructions for this meter and recalibration would most certainly be required.As far as replacing it, if you want that same or better feature set for a good price it might make sense just to buy a new one of the same model.

author: J-R
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2024, 04:36:25 am
content: I completely recommend pulling this apart and inspecting everything. PCB, switch contacts, etc.. Apply a voltage to the input and trace it as far as you can. Check the converter supply voltage and input/output. What have you to lose at this point?Side note, the calibration procedure is known for the BM869s:https://web.archive.org/web/20241001203742/https://www.jackenhack.com/calibrating-brymen-bm-series-multimeter/However, you'd obviously need a bit of additional equipment, so I'm just posting this for completeness.Brymen reliability is not really the issue here, it's the warranty. To keep costs and corporate liabilities down, coverage is limited. For the price point, it's a popular trade-off for buyers.The BM789 doesn't have the dual display or computer interface, but otherwise is probably considered an equal of sorts to the BM869s, just different in some areas.Also, it seems Fungus is too tired to join in, so I'll just do him a favor and point out that he'd suggest the BM859s.Ultimately, if you really liked all of the aspects of the BM869s, then I echo the sentiment of just getting another one. You could keep the broken one as a parts unit. Fuses, input jacks, display, rubber case, etc. could all be handy to have some decades down the road.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2024, 05:43:22 am
content: A few general follow-up points:Great seeing someone has figure out the calibration procedure, but the meter has 4 internal physical adjustments, 3 capacitive trimmers and 1 trimpot and I think they are all involved with either the TRMS conversion circuit or the AC input dividers. The trimpot is likely the TRMS converterscaleoffset trim. I suppose that part could be figured out as well. Actually, upon reflection that's probably a job for me if anyone needs help with that.Apparently the AD636JHZ (TO-100 hermetic package) is still available at some level, just not through normal distributors anymore. There are thousands available but not in quantities of one or two--Rochester wants about $350 shipped for a 10-pack. Based on recent teardown photos it appears that Brymen is still using that package even today.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2024, 03:58:25 pm
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on December 23, 2024, 02:26:01 amCarefully read your post. These are not fuses but fusible resistors. As the manual suggests, once they open, not only would ACV be effected but also DCV and pretty much every thing else. Consider the amount of transients I have ran on the BM869s, I have never damaged the resistors mentioned. The talk about lightning or surge being a possible cause. Also, how other parts should be replaced if these were damaged. Also note, these resistors are not in series with the current inputs.

author: andrejr
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2024, 04:02:44 pm
content: I looked into the Hiokis and they seem like an especially bad deal: only 3 years of warranty, double the price of Brymen. Brymen has 1 year of warranty.I could maybe get a used Fluke for 400, but who knows if the warranty is transferrable and how much of it is left.

author: andrejr
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2024, 04:24:40 pm
content: Quote from: J-R on December 23, 2024, 04:36:25 amI did all I could do with a shitty yellow meter, but I stopped myself before I wasted any more time, because I'm a grownup now. Since it's not the switch or anything, it's a circuit problem, and I know I can't really fix that.Why? Because if I do, I'll have to cal it, and I don't have any calibration equipment, nor friends with a PPM fetish and metrology equipment. I don't plan to pick up a metrology hobby. I also live in Slovenia, a small country with a very small market - this means that any "specialist" services like calibration or similar are more expensive than, say, in LA or NY or London, for what's likely terrible service. Calibrating the meter would likely be more expensive than buying a new one.Summing all this up, I think that just buying another 869 is probably the fiscally soundest decision, even though I hate the fact I'm buying a known-unreliable meter.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2024, 04:36:25 pm
content: Quote from: andrejr on December 23, 2024, 04:02:44 pmHioki are one ofthebest brands.Quote from: andrejr on December 23, 2024, 04:02:44 pmI don't get how you can think Hioki is expensive but a $400 used Fluke is good value. They're both in the "luxury" class and not good bang per buck.You could gettwoBrymens for that much money.I don't know whyyourmeter failed but Brymen's as reliable as any other brand, even Fluke.Quote from: J-R on December 23, 2024, 04:36:25 amBM857s - I'll take the simplified selector dial over the temperature measurement.These are Brymen's "industrial" meters and they're quite a lot smaller then the BM869. More boxy and square. The screen isn't as exposed. If you want something really small though you'll have to go with something like the BM235, I don't know if it meets your needs.They don't have dual display but having that on 100% of the time seems like clutter to me. Your AC is very unlikely to be anything else than 50/60Hz anyway. The rest of the specs aren't very different than the BM869s.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2024, 04:36:59 pm
content: Did you check if AD636 has negative supply?

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2024, 04:57:05 pm
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on December 23, 2024, 12:56:27 amThe fuses are in the circuits for the current measurement jacks — voltage measurements don’t go through the fuses at all. (At the very least, I have never seen nor heard of a multimeter with fuses in the voltage input circuit). So a bad fuse won’t affect voltage measurement because they aren’t even in the circuit when doing voltage measurements!(And lest you cite your user manual again: “fusible resistor” ≠ “fuse”.)

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2024, 05:05:49 pm
content: Quote from: andrejr on December 23, 2024, 04:24:40 pmGiven the very high prices on Fluke products in the EU, you're probably right. But perhaps take a look at Chauvin Arnoux/Metrix?Somewhere there's a post or YT video of Dave Jones saying that chip rot will eventually take out most Brymen custom processors so they aren't really a meter that will likely last a lifetime. There are multiple posts here on EEVBlog and elsewhere about other Brymen 869S owners saying they've had similar problems, often starting with the AC ranges and then progressing to more extensive failure. Still, an 8-year lifespan isn't terrible and you have less invested should the meter become smashed, stolen or drowned. And you'll have plenty of spare parts if you blow your new one up somehow.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2024, 05:16:48 pm
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on December 23, 2024, 05:05:49 pmThey're no cheaper.

author: andrejr
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2024, 06:25:40 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on December 23, 2024, 04:36:25 pmI obviously don't think that, hence the doubt I expressed. If I could get one for 400, AND the warranty was transferrable, AND the remaining warranty was 8-9 years - then it'd be a good deal, much better than Hioki or Brymen. But that case is very much unrealistic, those second hand ones are likely to be old. As for Hioki, 530eur for 3 years of warranty and almost the same spec of a 200eur Brymen is frankly a joke.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2024, 07:02:22 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on December 23, 2024, 04:57:05 pmI have ran into it during my testing. Typically these meters share the current measurement function with the voltage. They place the fuse as the first component in the input. You could imagine that every transient would require a new fuse. This is the reason when people have asked me to look at meters like this, I refuse.Some of the low cost meters with shared current/voltage used PTCs rather than fuses for the low current inputs. Very nice for the hobbyist working with low evergy / low voltage circuits.Quote from: Fungus on December 23, 2024, 04:36:25 pmConsider that the Fluke 189 that was given to me by a friend who passed away was previously owned by a friend of his who had also passed away. From the photo, you can see that meter wasn't treated like some lab princess. Cost of ownership may actually be very good over the meters lifetime. I would have no problem buying a brand new Fluke. They just don't make any products that fit my use.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2024, 07:11:58 pm
content: Quote from: andrejr on December 23, 2024, 06:25:40 pmYou need to have realistic expectations. Hioki's meters are generally higher quality than Brymen. That costs money. Their warranties are 3 times longer too, right? I've never owned a Brymen, but a lot of people on this site consider them good quality and reliable. IMO, Hioki is paying for higher quality, and Fluke is paying for quality + brand name (and more weight on the brand name than the quality).So if the competition costs 3 times as much, just buy 3 Brymens over time if they break. I think your meter's premature death was a Fluke anyway. 🤷

author: BILLPOD
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2024, 08:44:45 pm
content: Good Morning Andrejr, If that was my meter, I would get another. With a known good meter, by probing back and forth, you could find where the problem lies, You will need a third meter that is higher quality than your cheapo one. Hey, if you can't fix it, then label it for DC use only and continue to use it. Whatever you decide to do, please report back here, because many Forum members have this meter, including me, and we are very much interested in what your problem could be. Thank you in advance for reporting back, and good luck.

author: J-R
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2024, 02:47:58 am
content: Quote from: andrejr on December 23, 2024, 04:24:40 pmCalibration may not be required, depending on the component that is damaged.Understandable if you're not wanting to spend any time on this.What is the used market like over there? Would you sell the failed unit online or keep it for parts?Quote from: Fungus on December 23, 2024, 04:36:25 pmOh no! I was so close!

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2024, 04:36:56 am
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on December 23, 2024, 07:02:22 pmSure, but that wasn't the question.If you live in a place where Brymens are easily available then a Fluke is relatively poor value.(unless your job requires you to wave a yellow meter at clients as you go through the door)

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2024, 04:53:02 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on December 24, 2024, 04:36:56 amOK, what was the question? If you take the original cost of my Fluke 289 and divide it by the number of years I've had it plus the remaining warranty I'm pretty sure its expected annual cost of ownership is lower than the OP's now defunct Brymen 869S. ($400 ÷ (14 + 7)) = $19 per year and that number keeps going down as production continues and the warranty extends. Not including batteries, of course--and rechargeables along with an updated PCB have fixed that. YMMV.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2024, 05:01:35 am
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on December 24, 2024, 04:53:02 amOP hadbad luck. It happens.I'll let you know the annual cost of my Brymen if it dies before I do.

author: csuhi17
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2024, 05:13:47 am
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on December 24, 2024, 04:53:02 amWhere can you buy the Fluke 289 so cheap? The lowest I found was ~1100 Euro,and only 5 yearswarranty. "Manufacturer Lifetime Warranty"

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2024, 05:20:34 am
content: Quote from: csuhi17 on December 24, 2024, 05:13:47 amIt's not so much where as when--that price was in the US, on special, 14 years ago. A nice kit too, with the software, USB cable and a Pelican case. Warranty should still be the "modified lifetime" and at least 10 years but yeah, the price has gone up. The same kit but without the case is now $1084 USD.

author: andrejr
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2024, 01:23:18 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on December 24, 2024, 05:01:35 amI wonder if it's bad luck, or chip rot that Dave mentioned in one of the videos. I guess I'l try tracing the dead meter when I get a new one, just out of curiosity. I wonder if it's the RMS circuit or the main chip.

author: beatman
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2024, 01:59:45 pm
content: check this.https://www.nsmarket.gr/en/index/products/multimeters?fby[]=manufacturer-Hioki

author: coromonadalix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2024, 02:07:04 pm
content: no to ranti had a Brymen 859s, i do regret selling it, i had many Fluke 189, one particular Mastech 22k count, who had the 2 fuses, and after they got cheaper, Amprobe am-140 i use very often, some older Wavetek HD160, Fieldpiece hb77 etc ...tried the old fluke 83 85 series = ok totally hated the 289now ending my life with Gossens ...it's a matter of finding what fit in your budget and or functions and their protections, and mostly where you can grab themmostly my choice and motto now are : DO NOT OPEN ALL / DISMANTLE ALL to change a F##ing damn fuseas for the @OP member hereyou can sometime find many same dmm chipset related schematics who could help repair your Brymen, did you ask Brymen under non disclosure to get schematics ?the advantages of theses Brymens and or similar chipset brands are, you enter their calibration mode and can redo their cal if you have stable references and other needed stuff ... not SW controlled calibration like Fluke and yes my Gossens at 160$ CAD / eanever saw any ic rotting etc ... only Fluke supercap problemsNever tried Hioki handhelds, just bench onesAnd finally as some saidIf Brymen are more available and less pricey than Fluke, buy them ...it does not means that Brymen is less good, you simply had some bad luck with yours ? and maybe you can repair it ?The hype over Fluke does not impress me, too high priced for the brand name (quality is there on some models) have the lower 6k count model at my job, i simply don't touch them, absolutely brand new for 3 years now, cal at each year that's all loll goes right back in it's box, we paid over 330$ Cad for each of them, we have around 10 of them ... mehyou have some Keysight too, not too high priced but no OLED based .... i would try them if i had one

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2024, 02:17:53 pm
content: Quote from: coromonadalix on December 24, 2024, 02:07:04 pmFun fact: The AM140 is a rebranded Brymen BM857

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2024, 02:20:53 pm
content: Quote from: andrejr on December 24, 2024, 01:23:18 pm8 years old is still a youngster in multimeter years.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2024, 08:01:58 pm
content: Quote from: coromonadalix on December 24, 2024, 02:07:04 pmI looked at a Gossen Ultra, rebranded as Prime after my review of it. The lack of proper shielding on such an expensive meter was a big surprise.I evaluated two Keysight meters. One low end, the other higher end. Both failed basic transient testing and both had major damaged from my 50,000 cycle life test. Worse, both were non-repairable due lack of protection to prevent damage to their custom parts. Again, a big surprise as I have used HP, Agilent brands for decades and have been very pleased with their products for the most part. Their DMMs, not so much.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2024, 08:33:41 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on December 24, 2024, 04:36:56 amThere was a question? All I noticed were opinions. Maybe explain your comment about "luxury" class, bang per buck. What do you consider is a luxury class meter? What metrics determine the bang per buck? Maybe to place a low value on quality and life, and a high value on feature count.Quote from: Fungus on December 24, 2024, 02:20:53 pmI think that will depend on the quality of the product and its use. Around here, many of the meters I have looked at had a life of a few months (depending how long they stay in the box).

author: beenai2018
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2024, 08:41:09 pm
content: Since DC works ,but slower ,it looks like you have a fault in more common paths than just the AC portion.Because there is no warranty left ,its probably a good idea to take it apart ,squirt some contact cleaner on the inter pcb headers and check for changes.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2024, 09:48:35 pm
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on December 24, 2024, 08:33:41 pmSure thing...!I consider a meter "luxury class" when there's significantly cheaper meters that can do the same job and have similar build quality.eg. A hobbyist buying a Fluke in Europe where Brymens are easily available.Brymens are hard to get in the US but I hear you can buy a dead Fluke for $80 in any pawn shop and send it back to Fluke the get a brand new one. Maybe that's where my confusion comes from.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 25, 2024, 12:48:50 am
content: To the OP: I also agree with others that your meter might be a unit that is placed on the wrong end of the reliability curve.I have a BM857 bought new from eBay and it has been working quite well for the past 12 years. I have a younger Brymen rebrand from Greenlee (DM-200A) that is also excellent and sees rougher environments (although it is quite new to me, clocking at just above two years).I would say Brymen is a notch below when compared to the Agilents and Flukes that I have in terms of quality of materials but it is still well above the average of the marketplace.As for recommendations, I would vouch for the Brymens, especially since you are in Europe. I would take a hard look at the new BM2257, which has quite the bang-per-buck IMO. If you were in the US and wanted the lifetime warranty on a BM869-type, Greenlee would be the brand to buy (I don't know if they honor warranty overseas)https://www.greenlee.com/us/en/dmm-500k-counts-dm-860a-dm-860aGood luck in your quest!

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 25, 2024, 01:29:40 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on December 24, 2024, 09:48:35 pmI think that depends more on the "job" than the brand. Consider the Fluke 289. Say it offered features that I need for the job. It currently costs $700. But wait, UNI-T offers the UT181A knockoff, with a fancy color display and a few more features for less than half the price of the Fluke. Maybe you would consider the Fluke a luxury.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 25, 2024, 07:14:39 am
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on December 25, 2024, 01:29:40 amI guess if you're a millionaire then a Mercedes-Benz S-Class is "just a car" (might as well get a nice one, right?)The Majority of people wouldn't think that though.If Uni-T were a car they'd be something like a TVR - fast and good looking, but will spend more time at the workshop than on the road.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 25, 2024, 07:30:40 am
content: Quote from: rsjsouza on December 25, 2024, 12:48:50 amAgilents are flimsy, despite their price tag. Joe Smith's broken some just by turning the dial a few thousand times. Their transient survivability's below par, too.Compare the nice clicky sound at the start of the video to the feeble grinding sound it makes at time 1:40More tests of Agilents:https://www.youtube.com/@joesmith-je3tq/search?query=keysight

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 25, 2024, 07:49:31 am
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on December 24, 2024, 08:33:41 pmOP said he used his Brymen "very carefully" once or twice a month.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 25, 2024, 08:00:57 am
content: For AC measurements I still think a $30 Aliexpress oscilloscope will give you more information than a multimeter, and across amuchwider frequency range.That's just me though.(be sure to use a suitable probe for high-energy measurements)

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 25, 2024, 01:12:36 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on December 25, 2024, 07:30:40 amNo, they are flimsy in certain aspects. Take your Brymen to do what Dave did to the U1282A on the canyon and you can bet your bottom dollar it will be non-operational unless taken to the shop. My BM857 is a good meter but mechanically it has its severe flaws - the stand being the most critical of them.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 25, 2024, 02:10:16 pm
content: Flimsy in the parts that count, the selector switch mechanics. The closest I come to Dave's videos in real life is I've dropped them from a few feet onto concrete. I do however rotate the selector switches. Both Agilent/Keysight meters had major failures early on in the life cycle testing. The Brymen BM869s that I subjected to the 50,000 cycle life test is still in use today.I offered to buy that U1282A from Dave as is for parts to repair mine after it was damaged during some low voltage transient testing. It appeared all the custom ICs may have been alright. Unlike even the cheap meters, Keysight doesn't have adequate protection for these parts, and good luck trying to source parts to repair one.***Also, I was surprised that Keysight's lettering was so easily effected with my solvent test. This is something I normally see with the bottom basement meters.Showing 8000 cycles, plastic broke on the U1282A. Starts with a nice click, then squeals, then all goes quite:

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 25, 2024, 02:27:31 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on December 25, 2024, 07:14:39 amNormally, if the manufacture claims the product meets IEC 61326, it will do well with my tests. Dave's 121GW and the UT181A both make this claim and did poorly. So it's not a sure bet. If Fluke makes this claim, you can pretty much bet on it holding up.I am willing to spend more for a product that I know will survive some basic transients. If it can handle some cycling of the switch, even better. Maybe you consider these metrics a luxury.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 25, 2024, 03:04:20 pm
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on December 23, 2024, 07:02:22 pmQuote from: Fungus on December 25, 2024, 07:49:31 amRight. I am suggesting that the Fluke I mentioned which is at least 20 years old now has not had an easy life sitting on a desk measuring batteries and 1k resistors.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 25, 2024, 04:21:55 pm
content: Quote from: rsjsouza on December 25, 2024, 01:12:36 pmI don't need mine to be waterproof. OTOH I'd like to think I can turn the dial a couple of dozen times a day without it wearing out in six months.Quote from: rsjsouza on December 25, 2024, 01:12:36 pmHere's my hack for that:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/help-me-decide-fluke-87v-or-brymen-bm789/msg3505584/#msg3505584(Don't laugh 'til you try it...)

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 25, 2024, 04:51:43 pm
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on December 25, 2024, 02:27:31 pmYep.OTOH I think you can say that of Brymen, too. I don't recall a Brymen performing worse than a Fluke in any of your tests.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 25, 2024, 05:30:30 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on December 25, 2024, 04:21:55 pmIt's funnyandeffective. 😉

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2024, 02:10:51 pm
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on December 25, 2024, 02:10:16 pmJoe, I love your tests but they are not end all be all. They reveal serious design flaws on many meters, including the more fragile switch design of the Agilents when compared to others, as well as their higher susceptibility to transients. However, as you know well (and we talked about this in the past), there are other aspects apart from these that can help a user make a decision on one equipment over another - after all, the original question is if there is a more robust/reliable replacement to the OP's Brymen.For work on the field (in several cases on wet/high humidity areas) I used to take my 27/FM due to its sheer robustness (and the dark colour that hid the dirt). After a U1282A was handed to me, it's IP67 rating (and Dave's tests) give me much more confidence in these harsh environments - this can be shown on the account of several folks that report issues with their measurements where a board cleanup brings the equipment back to life. I am also to see a transient kill a meter (apart from your tests, of course) - in my experience and other reports made to my channel, switching to a wrong range and leaving the meter there for several seconds until it "sparks" is a much more common occurrence, mostly due to fatigue of PTCs, clamping transistors or other aspects of an improper input design. Case in point: my UT61E can be left in ohms in a 120V~240V plugged, even with its flimsy tolerance to transients.All this is not to say the Agilents are perfect meters or your tests are useless - I myself reported my concerns with an older U1233A that were proven in your tests, and value your exposure of issues on the U1282A. But my based opinion still stands: Brymens are built a notch lower than these two brands (and I hoped to have models from Sanwa and Hioki to evaluate them in comparison, but $$$ is of the essence).

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2024, 02:40:55 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on December 25, 2024, 04:51:43 pmDoes your idea of a luxury meter only come into play then when discussing Brymen vs Fluke?If you look at the data I have collected, you don't find too many brands that repeatably hold up to my tests.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2024, 03:05:15 pm
content: I don't think too many people consider my tests as some sort of end all. At most, you get some unbiased data about how robust meters are when ran against some constant tests. No feelings, opinions, stories, just raw data. In cases where an end user may only be looking at their 555 timers or testing their old batteries in the drawer, I doubt any of it matters. Video below talks about stupid people with narrow views. I think this applies to many things, even my testing. It's not the gold standard. If anything, it just scratches the surface and is highly focused in one area.Quote from: rsjsouza on December 26, 2024, 02:10:51 pmBased on what metrics?Chemicals, Keysight was poor.Function switch life cycle, Keysight was really poor.Low energy transient testing, Keysight was poor.Maybe from an accuracy, precision, drift.... Show your data.If I need something better than the BM869s, I use my HP 34401A. Handhelds have their place but are no match for even that old meter. And when it comes to why I don't see much point in looking at other such metrics, as I have stated many times, I basically just follow the specs in the data sheets.QuoteSadly, in the USA I suspect $$$ has become a major concern.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2024, 04:41:06 pm
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on December 26, 2024, 02:40:55 pmFor "professional" meters I don't really discuss anything other than Brymen and Fluke after watching your tests.If I win the lottery I might buy a Hioki out of curiosity but I don't see a reason to ever buy a Fluke 87V, personally.Quote from: joeqsmith on December 26, 2024, 02:40:55 pmOnly Fluke/Brymen/Hioki spring to mind. Maybe there was a Gossen, too, although the Gossen had other problems.I don't recall seeing a Hioki or Gossen undergoing a switch lifecycle test.I was surprised when you didn't zap the Keysight with your capacitor, I thought they'd be able to take 2kV. Even Anengs have survived that much.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2024, 05:19:54 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on December 26, 2024, 04:41:06 pmIt looks like the HIOKI 4282 is only about $400 USD + tax. Less than the 87V but a far more capable meter. I almost bought one instead of the Brymen BM869s. The Brymen had a few features I wanted that were not offered with the HIOKI.Quote from: Fungus on December 26, 2024, 04:41:06 pmThat Gossen would kick some ass if the Germans would admit to themselves that the shielding was important. Not only to prevent the electro-mechanical relay from changing states with the magnetic hanger, but to make it immune to your hand placement. Branding it as Prime fixed nothing. You are correct in that I have not life cycle it's, or the low cost HIOKI's selector switches. Because of the length of the test, I've only looked at a few meters.The Keysight is a little princess and did not earn the right to be tested against that capacitor. That test was reserved for the meters that survived the low voltage transient tests. She looks nice on the lab bench measuring resistors and 9V batteries. While I did stress Dave's 121GW (that had already failed), I said that I would not run the virgin 121GW for the same reason.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2024, 01:10:48 pm
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on December 26, 2024, 03:05:15 pmI suspect several do, since they touch the funny bone feeling of "revealing the true story behind the industry" (that would give a compelling video title).Quote from: joeqsmith on December 26, 2024, 03:05:15 pmNaturally this is based on my experience with two meters from the "B" brand, three meters of the "A/K" brand and five or six of the "F" brand. My two Brymens had the following issues:BM857: the flimsy kickstand broke shortly after purchasing and, after Brymen sent me a replacement kickstand, I treated it like a princess. Several years later, it broke again to my dismay. The manufacturer provided no cushion for its battery, rattling when installed. The external rubber boot had several finishing issues, including uneven discoloration.BM251 (Greenlee DM-200A) - came with off-centered jacks that cause some probes to be difficult to insert. The rubber boot stilll has finishing issues and the kickstand is still quite flimsy, although now tied to the rubber boot. The rotary switch is quite stiff but can, at times, be lodged between ranges. But it feels more robust and better built than the BM857.Some will say these are unimportant and prove nothing since they are anecdoctal and are easily fixable, etc. Can't say anything outside of my experience with my two units, but they reveal a lesser quality control when compared to the other two brands and, in my case, reveal a lack of robustness.But overall they are excellent meters in their own merit and I use them extensively, just like my other "A/K" and "F" meters.(edit) fixed bad /quote directive

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2024, 01:24:20 pm
content: Quote from: rsjsouza on December 30, 2024, 01:10:48 pmI confess I don't use the stand much.The logical next step for bench use (after the "string" mod) would be to 3D print a support for it.(or laser cut)

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2024, 02:02:51 pm
content: Quote from: rsjsouza on December 30, 2024, 01:10:48 pmQuote from: rsjsouza on December 30, 2024, 01:10:48 pmI had bought a new Fluke (87V) for testing and the rubber boot also had uneven discoloration. It didn't seem to effect the poor switch design (that meter didn't hold up so well in the life cycle testing). I've seen some alignment problems with the connectors before as well. Agree, these problems point to a problem with their quality control.In the case of the two Agilent / Keysight meters I looked at, forget the poor input protection, the fact their function switches were damaged in so few rotations points to a design problem. Like Gossen not providing adequate shielding, its a design problem.

author: AVGresponding
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2024, 04:48:55 pm
content: It would be interesting (but probably too depressing) to learn what, if any, pressure has been exerted by the parent corporation upon Fluke to cut overhead/increase margin. Especially when you consider the ROI on the 87V must be an investors wet dream, by now.One thing I wish they'd rewind is the boot shape; on the 87, it's flat at the bottom and stable, but the 87V is curved and wobblesI sometimes think about swapping the boots over, during moments of extreme annoyance

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2024, 05:43:02 pm
content: Quote from: AVGresponding on December 30, 2024, 04:48:55 pmIt's probably harder than you think to simply maintain production of a legacy product, let alone thrift its input BOM. Perhaps producing some of the parts in China would help but on a product like the 87V you can't alter it perceptibly because your customers would notice, especially those that have many units and can do side-by-side comparisons. Design revisions to fix bugs or adapt to newer parts have to be either transparent or slight improvements that do not alter function or procedures in anyway.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 01, 2025, 05:16:55 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on December 30, 2024, 01:24:20 pmNot on the Brymen or a 3D printed stand, but on my HV transistor tester gizmo I used an advanced ninja-folding technique on a carefully chosen piece of 14 AWG solid copper wire to keep it at the exact angle of 46.8°

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 01, 2025, 07:07:51 pm
content: Quote from: rsjsouza on January 01, 2025, 05:16:55 pmExcellent! It perfectly blends into the workplace, you wouldn't even see if if you walked past.