BATTERIES - where to buy them?!!! - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: k8943
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 14, 2018, 06:56:50 pm
content: Around there workshop there's all kinds of stuff that still requires batteries.Maybe AA or AAA in a multimeter, 9v in an RJ cable continuity tester, a button cell in a digital calipers.....Thing is I've never really figured out where - or what - to buy.In regulars shops they seem horrendously expensive (maybe there's an eco-tax?). And experience says paying the price is no guarantee it's good.Find a deal on Amazon on something branded and maybe there's a catch? It's a fake or was stored badly?Then there's Aliexpress and the possibility of getting 100 no name brand cells for peanuts and swapping them out quickly....Do people measure cell voltage after purchase to check "it's good"?Are there certain stand out brands or strategies? What offers the best quality / price? (don't mind swapping them out regularly and keeping a store..)All ideas welcome!

author: edavid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 14, 2018, 07:03:06 pm
content: If you have an Ikea nearby, you can buy good alkaline batteries there.Otherwise Amazon is fine.For 9V, you can also buy Li-ion batteries from China that work great. I like EBL brand.For coin cells, yes, check the voltage when you get them. That is a good indication of quality and freshness.

author: rdl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 14, 2018, 07:08:25 pm
content: I've been using EBL 9 volt for a while now with no problems. The NiMH are kind of wimpy but the Li-ion are pretty close to alkaline. For AAA or larger, only use re-chargeable low self discharge NiMH type.

author: retiredcaps
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 14, 2018, 07:46:21 pm
content: If you are looking at nimh, Amazon Basic AA/AAA rechargeables that are Made in Japan are rumored to come from the same factory in Japan as Eneloops.Same for Ikea ladda rechargeables.Seehttp://eneloop101.com/batteries/rewrapped-batteries/and (member HJK here)https://lygte-info.dk/info/indexBatteriesAndChargers%20UK.htmland (member tom66 here)http://www.batteryshowdown.com/PS. I only use eneloops in expensive meters.

author: retiredcaps
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 14, 2018, 07:53:06 pm
content: Oh and avoid buying any nimh on ebay. They are mostly fake with over inflated claims of 3000 or 5000 mAh for an AA cell. You will be lucky to get 1/10th of that.For 9V, I buy them locally from any big box store when they are on sale. I need them for some meters and smoke detectors.

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 14, 2018, 08:03:05 pm
content: Yes, Ikea according to this pretty comprehensive battery comparison...http://www.batteryshowdown.com/EDIT: Oops, retiredcaps beat me to it!

author: retiredcaps
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 14, 2018, 08:07:56 pm
content: Your typical ebay posting ...https://www.ebay.com/itm/302080640509They claim AAA has 1800 mAh. You would be lucky to get 1/10th of that in this cheap cell.Unfortunately, 206 people suckered in.And yes, back in 2008, I was stupid enough to buy "2500" mAh nimh batteries from ebay until I discovered Eneloop. So today, I use Eneloop or some repacked version of it like Ikea ladda. In fact, I bought some laddas nimh last month for various purposes.

author: drussell
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 14, 2018, 08:12:02 pm
content: I've had good luck with the Costco Kirkland Signature ones... Not sure who's making them for Costco. I generally use those or Duracell ProCells since I can get those by the case wholesale.

author: Richard Crowley
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 14, 2018, 08:14:42 pm
content: Several people on YouTube claim that Amazon Basic rechargeable AA cells are really re-labeled EneloopAmazon Basic are less expensive when they are on special.For primary (not-rechargeable) cells, I try to get them from someplace with good turnover.Costco, Ikea, B&H, etc. More dodgy at your local convenience store.I have heard rumors that Costco AA cells are Energizer or Duracell. (or perhaps whichever has a the better deal at the moment?)

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 14, 2018, 08:59:39 pm
content: I don't know in Belgium, but around here I have been relying on the bland Ray-o-vac for years - I haven't had a leak.Energizer and Duracell all leaked.I have good experiences with the occasional "GP" as well that comes with a new toy/gadget here and there.

author: Buriedcode
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 14, 2018, 09:34:44 pm
content: I go with supermarket own brands. Fraction of the price of *ahem* Duracell... same capacity, and don't seem to leak more (or less) often. I've never understood how Duracell can get away with their claims by comparing them to Zinc batteries - which are very hard to find these days.

author: tpowell1830
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 14, 2018, 11:21:37 pm
content: https://www.radioshack.com/products/radioshack-alkaline-batteries-aa

author: Stray Electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 15, 2018, 01:45:02 am
content: Quote from: tpowell1830 on September 14, 2018, 11:21:37 pmI didn't know that there were any Radio Shacks left, they all disappeared around here several years ago. They sold THE worst crap on the market. I quit buying anything from them 20 years ago. Now I usually pick up a large pack (24 batteries IIRC) of batteries from Harbor Freight for a few dollars. Hell, if you get one of their coupons they'll even give you a free pack for buyinganythingso buy a pack and get a pack free. In my experience their batteries work as good as the Energizer or Duracell brands that are usually sold in the U.S. Yes, there are "better" batteries but they're not worth the extra cost except for special uses. Odd size batteries are usually expensive in the US but are available on Amazon for much less.

author: Richard Crowley
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 15, 2018, 02:03:34 am
content: Quote from: Stray Electron on September 15, 2018, 01:45:02 amI don't think there are any physical shops remaining. But they are apparently still doing business online.Their primary benefit to me was the test connectors they had in the shops. You could take in your random gadget and try all the power connectors to see which one fits properly. Alas, something you can't do online.

author: tpowell1830
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 15, 2018, 02:07:38 am
content: Quote from: Stray Electron on September 15, 2018, 01:45:02 amI have tried these batteries and get about half the life (anecdotal) of a Duracell, but the OP only wanted sources, so RS is a cheap source of batteries. These batteries are fine for remote controls and low current systems, like my wall clock. The ad (link) said $12.00 for 36 batteries, but sometimes they have sales for $9 for 36.

author: drussell
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 15, 2018, 02:33:08 am
content: Quote from: tpowell1830 on September 15, 2018, 02:07:38 amThe Costco and IKEA ones are just as cheap, or cheaper, though, and generally last a smidgen longer than a Duracell. (Which is weird because there is convincing evidence that the Costco ones are made by Duracell.) Here in Canada, the Costco ones are $13.49 (that's about $10 USD) for 48 and IKEA $3.49 for 10. That's Canadian dollars, regular price (current online price.) IKEA sometimes puts them on sale, too, of course. Thats why I like those Costco ones, a pretty good bargain for top quality cells.Given the exchange rate, I guess we're actually getting a pretty good deal on those here. In the US, it looks like Costco has 72 packs for $21 USD and IKEA says $2.99 for 10, but at that regular price it is still more than Costco if you have a membership or some Cash Cards to use online

author: edavid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 15, 2018, 04:07:35 am
content: OP is in Belgium, so he is not going to be shopping at Costco or Radio Shack

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 15, 2018, 04:35:52 am
content: In the USA I get alkaline batteries from Dollar Tree. In the UK I get them from Poundland. Not only are they inexpensive they are less likely to leak. Surely there is some similar kind of shop where you live?

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 15, 2018, 07:54:40 am
content: I make a difference between energy need:Ultralow energy need like remote controls of sometimes used equipment:These are IME the highest risk leak causing devices. I have no good solution for these except eneloops (expensive) which not always work due to the lower voltage. Best solution I have found is replace all batteries first of january and write it on the calendar.Low energy need (batteries once per two years or less):- lithium energy- A quality alkaline like Duracell/Panasonic BUT label the date and preventively replace every two years !High energy need (replace < 1 year):- Eneloop if applicable ( can be had online at Conrad and others)- Lithium energy lasts a bit longer but expensive

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 15, 2018, 10:45:38 am
content: Quote from: edavid on September 15, 2018, 04:07:35 amNor Harbor Freight.

author: NottheDan
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 15, 2018, 11:29:19 am
content: Quote from: drussell on September 15, 2018, 02:33:08 amWhy is that weird? Duracell produce various lines of batteries and their Industrial AA batteries outperform their consumer ones in my experience.

author: sokoloff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 15, 2018, 12:08:15 pm
content: Quote from: Richard Crowley on September 15, 2018, 02:03:34 amI saw one open in Clermont, FL two weeks ago. I was on a tight schedule to meet someone, so couldn’t stop in, just snapped a quick nerd selfie in front.

author: malagas_on_fire
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 15, 2018, 12:25:08 pm
content: I have a mixed batteries , for example AA NIMH for the portable scope from LIDL and energizer, AAA nimh from leroy merlin on DMM and 9V alkaline batteries energizer or duracell ultra for DMM as well.For coin cell usually are from LIDL or GP.The leakage it also depends on storage conditions and some duracell batteries ( long lasting) are not as good as generic where the ultra remains very good and more expensive.

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 15, 2018, 01:00:52 pm
content: Yes, Lidl NiMH are pretty good - especially if you can find them 30% off in the 'leftovers' area.

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 15, 2018, 01:27:21 pm
content: I'd suggest to take the cheapest alkaline batteries from Aldi, Lidl, Ikea or whatever discounter you have in your area. Best bang for the buck. They won't last as long as premium cells but they have a much better price-performance ratio. Some online shops, e.g. Reichelt, offer packs of industry grade cells for a reasonable price.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 15, 2018, 04:29:07 pm
content: Quote from: madires on September 15, 2018, 01:27:21 pmThis may or may not be true. Cells have two key properties: power output and capacity. When you buy premium cells they have generally been optimized for power output (good performance in high drain or demanding applications). This depends on the formulation of the cell.However, capacity depends on the weight of materials inside the cell (a given weight of chemicals will deliver a corresponding amount of energy). Since even cheap cells weigh about the same as expensive cells, they will generally have a very similar ultimate capacity under low to moderate drain applications like DMMs.If you need high power output (cameras, flash guns, motorized devices, portable soldering irons) it is much better to use rechargeable cells than alkaline cells. Even the most ridiculously expensive alkaline cells perform poorly under these conditions.

author: Rolo
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 15, 2018, 04:37:00 pm
content: Do not buy Duracell, these are not the same as a few years ago. The brand name is sold and the new owner still lives on that reputation. They are known to leak.Here in Europe, the Netherlands, I always check where the cells are made. If it's Belgium or Germany I buy them. Don't care for the brand name thats printed on. There are few factory's for alkaline cells, Panasonic = Belgium, Varta = Germany. They produce under different brands.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 15, 2018, 04:38:03 pm
content: Quote from: Richard Crowley on September 14, 2018, 08:14:42 pmI have some and they seem to work fine however my Eneloop cells say made in Japan and my Amazon cells say made in China, so unless something has changed I am highly skeptical of them being the same thing.Generally I buy Eneloop cells because I know what I'm getting, they have proven themselves to be of excellent quality and consistency and I do like to support products made by a reputable source in first world countries over stuff that may be of questionable quality or made by slave labor to save money.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 15, 2018, 07:50:44 pm
content: Quote from: Rolo on September 15, 2018, 04:37:00 pmWow... I was reading and since January Energizer controls both Rayovac and Varta. Hopefully the quality will not erode.https://www.reuters.com/article/us-spectrum-m-a-energizer/energizer-adds-rayovac-batteries-to-lineup-with-2-billion-deal-idUSKBN1F517T

author: k8943
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 16, 2018, 08:41:59 am
content: Thanks everyone for a huge variety of responses!!!Indeed there are lots of options here in Belgium - the difficulty is having a plan.Weighing what I've read will head out to Ikea for some meatballs one weekday lunchtime,maybe get some plastic containers and then pick up a few batteries at no additional transport cost! Because it's easy will also consider a note in smartphone with a battery change date. Have suspicion that Ikea multipacks will leave me with more batteries than actually need within the expiry period, so can swap out aggressively.https://www.ikea.com/be/fr/search/?k=pile+&N=0&No=0&Nr=AND%28content.type%3Ap%2Csku.browsable%3A1%29&summary=trueNot wishing to corrupt the purity of this thread.... bought the following gadget recently, not for testing batteries but for applying various constant loads to switching power supplies. Delighted with it.https://www.aliexpress.com/item/150W-60V-10A-Constant-Current-Electronic-Load-Battery-Discharge-Capacity-Tester/32883419768.html?spm=a2g0s.9042311.0.0.27424c4dU8lkvpThanks all!!

author: mzzj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 16, 2018, 08:57:35 am
content: Quote from: james_s on September 15, 2018, 04:38:03 pmAFAIK Panasonic was moving much of the Eneloop production to china some time ago.BTW, IKEA "LADDA" batteries are same as Eneloop Pro but cost only 1/2 to 1/4 compared to eneloop!https://petapixel.com/2018/02/16/eneloop-pro-20-batteries-ikea-ladda-5-batteries/

author: mzzj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 16, 2018, 09:03:47 am
content: Non-rechargeable batteries I order from mostly Digikey, Panasonic Industrial AA is 0,19 euros per piece as I order them 250 pcs per time for work..About same price as IKEA butlooksbetter when shipped back to customers inside their equipmentLR44's for kids toys and digital calipers I have been ordering from ebay, GP has been usually quite cheap and works ok. (just stay away from weird brands and no-name batteries)

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 16, 2018, 05:58:01 pm
content: Quote from: mzzj on September 16, 2018, 08:57:35 amInteresting, I'll have to look into that. I'm willing to pay a significant premium for made in Japan, but if I'm going to buy Chinese batteries I'll buy them from one of the cheap brands.Something that bothers me a bit in that article is the 2450mAh cells testing to only 2300mAh. One of the things that really sold me on the Eneloop cells is that the 2000mAh cells have always tested slightly more than the stated capacity. In a world where most printed specs are exaggerated bullshit something that actually exceeds the specs gets a lot of respect from me.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 16, 2018, 06:25:46 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on September 16, 2018, 05:58:01 pmIt always used to be that the 2000 mAh Eneloops stated "min capacity 1950 mAh". In my testing they always came in around that, somewhere between 1950 and 2000.The Eneloop Pro seems to be 2550 nominal, 2450 min, so they should come in over 2450 in testing. It might be that the cells that don't meet spec are sold off cheaply through secondary channels rather then being recycled? I've never bought any Eneloop Pro's, so I don't have any first hand test results.(One thing that has characterized Eneloops in my testing is consistency. Every cell is nearly identical. That implies excellent process control all the way through the manufacturing process. If you get a bunch of cells that vary, they are not Eneloops.)

author: deadlylover
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2018, 04:52:03 am
content: Quote from: james_s on September 16, 2018, 05:58:01 pmA couple years ago I tested the latest AA Eneloop Pro's (Japan BK-HCD/4 says 2500mAh minimum!) versus the IKEA 2450's (also made in Japan, it'll say on the packaging), I got something like 2574mAh(Eneloop pro) versus 2542mAh(IKEA) on an analysing charger (Maha C9000, break-in mode, very similar to charging/discharging scheme used to rate NiMH batteries on datasheets).I don't know if the Eneloops I tested are using a newer process or if it's just binning or even luck of the draw, but they did show a tiiiny capacity edge verses the IKEA batteries.However, at $2.50 per cell in Australia the IKEA's are a no-brainer. Each time I go to IKEA I get a couple of packs just in case they suddenly discontinue the line. They're cheap enough that I don't get salty when family/friends accidentally throw them away to "do me a favour". (Sigh I lost a few Eneloop Pros this way...)I've always wanted to re-do the tests on some serious gear and not just a consumer/hobby level charger, but I haven't had the opportunity yet to pick up fresh packs at the same time.Apart from those particular Japan-made eneloop pros, I haven't seen any other 2500mAhminimumrated cells, they're usually 2450mAh even the Fujitsu ones.

author: mzzj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2018, 05:40:46 am
content: Quote from: james_s on September 16, 2018, 05:58:01 pmLADDA and Eneloop seem to perform exactly same:https://lygte-info.dk/review/batteries2012/Eneloop%20AA%20HR-3UWXB%202450mAh%20(Black)%20UK.htmlhttps://lygte-info.dk/review/batteries2012/CommonAAcomparator.phpSome Eneloop PRO versions had slightly better results, as well as Panasonic Evolta BK-3HLC but it seems like at the cost of slightly higher internal impedance.IKEA LADDA outperforms those two in terms of output energy and amp-hours with high current discharge.Possibly different generation of "PRO" or just luck of draw:http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?364607-Overview-All-eneloop-batteries-2005-2018I'm not so much into these "PRO" version Eneloops, the orginal ~1950mAh ones have better charge retention and they have spectacular self-life! I have some 12 years old eneloop batteries still in use and they seem to perform good as new.PRO is also rated only for 500 cycles whereas the smaller capacity version is rated for 1000 to 2100 cycles depending on which era/generation battery package you have.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2018, 08:13:45 am
content: Quote from: deadlylover on September 17, 2018, 04:52:03 amThe main selling point for the Eneloops is that they only loose a few % charge in a year. I have them lying on the bench charged and after half a year if I need them I can use them right away. Do the Ikea's also have this because most NiMH I had over the years are discharging themselves internally quite rapidly and that seems to be also the cause of malfunction/leakage, because my Eneloops from 6 years old are still great and used them very little.

author: deadlylover
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2018, 10:00:12 am
content: Quote from: Kjelt on September 17, 2018, 08:13:45 amThey sure do, most of the community suspect that the IKEA batteries, among others, come from the same factory that produces Eneloops in Japan. The feature you're talking about is known to be something like "Low Self Discharge" NiMH, usually on the package they'll say "ready to use".

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2018, 10:32:48 am
content: Ikea has its batteries produced by major manufacturers. The regular batteries used to be made by Varta. They're smart enough not to reinvent the wheel when it doesn't lead to a decent product.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2018, 10:35:27 am
content: Quote from: deadlylover on September 17, 2018, 10:00:12 amThat could be true but I would be suspicious about it, the Eneloops are the RollsRoyces of rechargeable batteries eg not cheap what Ikea would like to buy and sell. But it sure is possible.

author: IanJ
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 17, 2018, 10:41:20 am
content: Quote from: rdl on September 14, 2018, 07:08:25 pmFWIW, I have about 40 EBL 9v 600mAH Lithium-Ion batteries in use randomly and continually charging/discharging and some are more than two years old. Only ever had 2 in that time that started to fail.Ian.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2018, 10:46:27 am
content: Quote from: Kjelt on September 17, 2018, 10:35:27 amThe world of branding and what people are willing to spend on what's essentially a label is both wonderful and freightning. There are plenty of otherwise identical products that are simply differentiated by marketing and sold at much higher prices. I'm not sure that's the case here, but it wouldn't surprise me. Redeveloping a product is costly in itself and research indicates that people experience a veritable difference when using an identical but more expensive product. Physchology will allow Eneloops to be sold at higher prices if they didn't change a thing.

author: Jeroen3
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2018, 11:32:12 am
content: We buy Duracell Industrial in bulk for years, at around €0.50 per unit. But I see IKEA's are only €0.18 per unit....

author: DC1MC
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2018, 11:41:48 am
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on September 17, 2018, 10:46:27 amWell, the main question is, hot to easy differentiate between those allegedly identical products ? Yeah, a label is just a label, but how can one see if this battery will leak or not, how thick is the Zinc cylinder, how good are the electrodes and so on ?Not so long ago, the brand and model differentiation was reasonably clear, you knew what to buy to put in your 2$ torch and what to buy for your 200$ Fluke, today, it's not so easy, the fakes and brand and model dilution really made a hit an miss every battery lot buy.I believe this actually caused the initial thread, at least in Germany there is no place that know of where you can get consistently performing batteries, no matter the price. Buy now 50, they behave in some way, but 6 month later another 50, totally different behavior, same supplier, same brand, same modelDC1MC

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2018, 11:45:10 am
content: Quote from: DC1MC on September 17, 2018, 11:41:48 amThe answer is the same as always. Benchmarks and teardowns.

author: GlennSprigg
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2018, 11:50:01 am
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on September 17, 2018, 10:46:27 amYes, you are right, about 'branding' in general !...A VAST amount of so-called/named products are made in the same factories, and simply re-labeled.In Adelaide, a food producer I worked for as a Tech, had 5 different 'Butter' products, whereby the ONLYdifference, was stopping the machines & changing the product packaging!!!They 'produced' 3 totally different Brands of 'Honey', for various States... The ONLY change was 'Packaging'.It used to make me laugh how little old ladies would 'Swear' by a particular brand !!! :-)There are companies that made 5+1/4" floppy-disks, and then CD's & DVD's. They were truly high-end, like'Verbatim' for example. But then other suppliers demanded HIGH volumes from them, cheap. (Then soldunder shonky sounding crappy names)... Because although they were the exact same product, 'Verbatim'did not want their name associated with a 'cheap', (and so possibly below par) product.The point I'm making, is that 'cheap' doesn't always mean rubbish... although can often be the case !Re: Batteries, ONE of the criteria that usually strikes me first, is their WEIGHT !! :-)If you pick up a packet of 4, 8, 10 AAA/AA etc batteries, and it weighs a 'feather' compared to 'normal',then you can be SURE they are just rubbish, with no chemical capacity what so ever !! :-)

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2018, 12:03:13 pm
content: Quote from: GlennSprigg on September 17, 2018, 11:50:01 amYup reminds me of the cheap C and D rechargeable batteries of the past which contained an AA battery inside.Lateron they even filled with some kind of cement to make it less obvious.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2018, 12:05:47 pm
content: Some batteries supplied with products are also suprisingly light. It always feels like half of it is made of cardboard.

author: DC1MC
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2018, 12:06:00 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on September 17, 2018, 11:45:10 amAnd some time later, you do this again, and then again ? Some people would like to pay for a bit more consistency, but it seem that this is gone now, just the increased price remains for what was once some consistent performance brands/models that one could count on.DC1MC

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2018, 12:14:09 pm
content: Quote from: DC1MC on September 17, 2018, 12:06:00 pmIt depends on whether you depend on the quality. If I make a quality product and require that level of performance, you can be sure that I run regular benchmarks to see whether the product still complies with what I assume and what the manufacturer lists. Just shoving anything in your product will lead to issues sooner or later. In lower tier products a less consistent and guaranteerd performance is part of the price people pay.For my own use I always assume products can vary between batches, especially volume products like batteries.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2018, 03:50:04 pm
content: Quote from: Kjelt on September 17, 2018, 12:03:13 pmI opened up a suspiciously crappy 18650 li-ion some time back and found a tiny pencil diameter cell sitting in a can filled with talcum powder.

author: YiGiT
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: September 17, 2018, 04:10:58 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on September 17, 2018, 12:05:47 pmThose are probably Zinc batteries as those tend to be very lightweight. I had a pack of Kodak Zinc Chloride batteries, They were lighter than alkalines but the problem is that Zinc batteries tend to leak much and when they leak, they leak very bad. They also don't last that long even if they don't leak.

author: Red Squirrel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2018, 04:17:26 pm
content: I try to use rechargeables for everything I can. Unfortunately ni-mh have lower voltage and also very fast self discharge rate, so for a tool that you don't use that often like say, a stud finder, you probably want to just use alkaline. That and an item that needs 3 or more is probably going to go into "low battery" mode right away as the lower voltage per cell is going to add up. Oddly enough this could perhaps actually be a use case for batteriser.Though modifying the device to add a dedicated boost converter after the power switch would probably be much smarter.What I'd like to see is more devices designed around 18650s. They are rechargeable and have low self discharge rate and high energy capacity. I suppose you could modify a device that uses 2x alkalines to use one 18650 cell though the voltage might be a little too high depending what the device is.

author: mzzj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2018, 05:06:13 pm
content: Quote from: Red Squirrel on September 17, 2018, 04:17:26 pmGoddammit, Eneloops have been around for over a decade and you still complain about self discharge rate!1.st gen Eneloops right out of package with factory charge have shown about 60% charge left after 10 YEARS in various tests. Insanely good result and better than most alkaline batteries!(still it's not really making sense to use NiMh eneloops in reeally low drain applications, at some point the cell is going to die of old age even if its charged only once per 5 years)

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2018, 06:17:51 pm
content: Quote from: Red Squirrel on September 17, 2018, 04:17:26 pmEh? You've never heard of Eneloops after all this time? I can put charged Eneloops in a device, put it away for five years, and when I pick it up again it will work fine.QuoteThis is not a problem I have encountered. Remember that alkaline batteries have a discharge curve from 1.5 V down to 0.9 V, so for half their lifetime they are below the 1.2 V of NiMH. I have put Eneloops in cameras, electric toothbrushes, portable soldering irons, kitchen scales, electric pencil sharpeners, flashlights and anything else that takes AA cells. All have worked fine. High power devices work much better than they do with alkalines.

author: Richard Crowley
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2018, 07:20:06 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on September 17, 2018, 06:17:51 pmWith the possible exception of the kitchen scales, those are all "dumb" loads. They are not particularly sensitive to low-end drop-out voltage.In the audio production world, it is widely considered that ordinary rechargeable AA cells have extremely short operating times in wireless microphone transmitters ("belt packs") Because many ordinary rechargeable cells START out at very close to the lower-limit of what the circuit needs to operate. Eneloops have a reputation for slightly better performance, but still not as good as ordinary 1.5V primary cells.But as products improve, they seem to be designing newer gadgets that are tolerant of the lower voltages of rechargeable cells.(Or they are being designed with built-in LiPo batteries that arerechargeable from 5V USB.)

author: malagas_on_fire
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2018, 07:32:14 pm
content: The only batteries that i avoid rechargeable are the 9V because their usability is not great 8.4v to 7.54v in multimeter and takes a lot to recharge.For some clamp meters it is advised to use a high drain battery, because of the hall sensor.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2018, 07:37:51 pm
content: Quote from: Richard Crowley on September 17, 2018, 07:20:06 pmIn this world, isn't it the case that they put in fresh cells at the start of every performance, and then discard the partially used cells at the end? Apart from being very wasteful, this does also encourage the transmitter designers to expect high cell voltages. Why design down to the tail end at 1 V or so if that scenario will never be encountered?

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2018, 07:44:02 pm
content: I hear people talk about zinc chloride cells being leaky but these days it's the alkaline cells I see leaking. I've had to spend a lot of time cleaning up stuff damaged by leaky alkaline cells, often now when the batteries are not even dead yet. It's the reason I've switched to Eneloops even in low drain applications, I've never had one leak.

author: mzzj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2018, 07:52:07 pm
content: Quote from: Richard Crowley on September 17, 2018, 07:20:06 pmFor a crappy designs like that NiZn rechargeables or lithium-iron primary batteries should work well. (unless the crappy design is overly sensitive about high voltage too (NiZn and Li-Fe are around 1.6-1.8 v when full)Otherwise Nimh has lot more usable capacity than alkaline even at moderate currents. If the low limit is set at ridicuously high at 1.38v the "Duracel ultra power alkaline" is on par with Ikea "eneloop" and you get only 0.1Ah or about 5% of capacity from either of them.If the low voltage limit would be set at 1.20v you get 0.5Ah out of alkaline and 2.1Ah out of "ikea nimh"Energizer ultimate lithium stomps them all in voltage sensitive applications, you get 1.5Ah or 15 times more amp-hours at 1.38v vs Duracell ultra power alkaline.https://lygte-info.dk/review/batteries2012/CommonAAcomparator.php

author: Richard Crowley
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2018, 07:55:00 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on September 17, 2018, 07:37:51 pmYes, yes, and yes. But we never seem to have a good solution even after all these years.QuoteIndeed. But modern products seem to be going for built-in LiPo packs, rechargeable from USB 5V. (e.g. RodeLink, et.al.)While that seems like a nice solution in terms of eliminating disposal of primary cells, many of us don't like the concept of batteries that are not field swapable.If you need a running time longer than the built-in LiPo pack provides, you are screwed because you can't just pop out the batteries (whether primary or rechargeable) and put in a fresh set and get on with it. You can't stop a live show (or an expensive production) and tell everyone to chill while your wireless transmitter recharges.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2018, 08:17:49 pm
content: Quote from: Richard Crowley on September 17, 2018, 07:55:00 pmThis problem was solved ages ago with mobile phones. They should just use an off the shelf mobile phone battery.

author: Richard Crowley
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2018, 08:47:03 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on September 17, 2018, 08:17:49 pmWhich one would you suggest? There have been literally HUNDREDS of DIFFERENT mobile phone batteries just in the last 5 years.They come and go year by year. Nobody would design an expensive professional-grade product using such an ephemeral source of batteries.In the life span of a single product, you could go through half a dozen EOL cycles for any mobile phone battery you would care to select.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2018, 09:11:44 pm
content: Quote from: Richard Crowley on September 17, 2018, 08:47:03 pmThere are a number of models that are popular for things like these. There are a few Nokia models that have been in use for the better part of two decades and which are manufactured by third parties too. The same has happened to certain types of camera battery packs. People sometimes create their own standards.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2018, 10:16:26 pm
content: Quote from: Richard Crowley on September 17, 2018, 08:47:03 pmA company designing a product around a battery could contract to have as many made as they wanted. They don't have to rely on batteries made for a specific phone. They could pick a design they like and stick to it, or make their own similar type. I was thinking more along the lines of off the shelf technology rather than a specific model of battery. Phone and camera batteries are pretty much all the same basic design.

author: Red Squirrel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2018, 11:16:10 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on September 17, 2018, 06:17:51 pmNever tried them are they really THAT good? I figured the self discharge was a limitation of the chemistry and not really brand dependent.

author: retiredcaps
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2018, 11:37:31 pm
content: Quote from: Red Squirrel on September 18, 2018, 11:16:10 pmYes, they are that good. Seehttps://main.panasonic-eneloop.eu/en/eneloop-self-discharge

author: Richard Crowley
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2018, 12:22:40 am
content: Quote from: james_s on September 17, 2018, 10:16:26 pmThere are 10 million cell phones sold for every wireless microphone sold. The market volume is not even wildly comparable.Furthermore wireless microphones need at least an order of magnitude more power than you can get from any cell phone battery.Cell phones transmit tiny bursts of data measured in milliseconds. Wireless mic transmitters transmit continuously for hours at a time.Wireless mic batteries wouldn't fit inside round, hand-held microphone cases.These would seem to be some of the reasons no wireless mic manufacturers have ever used cell phone batteries.IMHO, it is also highly desirable to be able to use primary cells when rechargeable cells can't be recharged.I have been on more than one tour in the 3rd world where there was no opportunity to recharge cells for days at a time.Ideally, designers will make future products that use replaceable AA-form cells, but will tolerate lower voltages from rechargeable chemistry.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2018, 12:38:57 am
content: Quote from: Red Squirrel on September 18, 2018, 11:16:10 pmWell, yes, they are that good.When Eneloops came on the market they rendered old technology cells almost obsolete overnight and caused every other manufacturer to bring out their own line of low self-discharge cells. But none of the others are quite as good as Eneloops.

author: mzzj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2018, 06:50:29 am
content: Quote from: Richard Crowley on September 19, 2018, 12:22:40 amSmart phone batteries have plenty of capacity and power but yeah, even less suited form factor for handhelds.. maybe perfect for "backpacks"(and they are typically not plug-and-play replaceable models)18650 or 26650 size Li-ion cell could be pretty good size for handheld.There is still one issue if using NiMh or whatever battery for wireless mics: keeping track of which cells are charged, empty or gone bad. Very little problems and suprises if you pop in fresh alkalines before every use.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2018, 07:07:54 am
content: Quote from: IanB on September 19, 2018, 12:38:57 amIndeed before the Eneloops the capacity was the only selling point reaching 3000mAh for an AA cell IIRC.That was only interesting for the high power users like racing cars etc. For the other applications that could last one year with a alkaline cell what good is your 3000mAh if after four months the cell is empty from self discharge. There the Eneloops scored and for those that like to have charged cells laying on the shelf in case of need. I personally use Eneloops in my Fluke multimeter for instance , just charge them once a year is enough to keep on going.

author: drussell
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2018, 03:18:48 pm
content: Quote from: Red Squirrel on September 18, 2018, 11:16:10 pmThey are pretty good for NiMH. I think the specification is something like 85% capacity after one year from the last charge date. Nowhere near as good as an alkaline (which is still at about 85% after 10 years from new), but pretty darn good for a rechargeable.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2018, 04:27:26 pm
content: Quote from: Richard Crowley on September 19, 2018, 12:22:40 amThe microphones in question operate for hours from an ordinary 9V alkaline battery, and someone already said the newest ones have a built in Li battery, I'm quite certain that a small phone/camera type prismatic LiPo would work just fine. As someone else said, there are some types that have been in steady production for decades and aftermarket compatible batteries have been made for all manner of things and cost peanuts, it obviously is not hard to get that style battery made in any quantity you like. If the built in prismatic cell works fine then obviously a removable one would also work fine. If they can get the properly sized ones to build in, then obviously they could get the properly sized ones designed as a removable pack. If phones and digital cameras can work with batteries like this then wireless mics can work with batteries like this. If I can buy a new battery for a 15 year old digital camera for <$5 from China then I could buy a new battery for a popular wireless mic.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2018, 04:28:59 pm
content: Quote from: drussell on September 19, 2018, 03:18:48 pmLithium are ten years.I had alkalines leak in their seal after two/three years

author: rdl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2018, 08:13:29 pm
content: I bought a new wireless mouse a couple of weeks ago. It came with two Duracell batteries that went directly into the trash without ever being unwrapped. That's how much I like Duracell.

author: GlennSprigg
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2018, 01:28:06 pm
content: Quote from: rdl on September 19, 2018, 08:13:29 pmYou must have your reasons, due to some past bad experience(s), but that seems a bit harsh ??Apart from personal 'tastes' like Cars/Engines, I would not have put 'Duracell' into your categoryof instant 'RubishBinAbility' ??

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2018, 03:04:50 pm
content: Quote from: GlennSprigg on September 21, 2018, 01:28:06 pmOr give them to someone you dislike...(I have my reservations against Duracell, but given that I use my wireless mouse quite often, the batteries don't last enough to reach the dangerous leak age)

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2018, 03:47:00 pm
content: I'd use them in something relatively high drain. They don't normally leak within a few months, but I have noticed a lot of leaky Duracells that get left around. Alkaline batteries definitely are much more leak prone than they used to be.

author: rdl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2018, 03:53:25 pm
content: It doesn't take long for Duracells to start leaking if you get bad ones. Several years ago there was a promotional thing with Pringles where you could get a free Pringles can speaker, so I sent off for one. When it arrived and I opened the package I was surprised to see that the two batteries that were included had already started leaking. They were Duracell batteries. That was the third time in recent history that I've had Duracells that leaked. I won't give them another chance.

author: grifftech
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2018, 07:33:13 pm
content: I have some duracell batteries that expired in 2013 that have not leaked

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 22, 2018, 04:58:53 am
content: Sometimes you get lucky. I have some that are older than that and not leaking, but I've had others leak well before they expire.

author: mzzj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 22, 2018, 07:41:57 am
content: For me personally leak test would provide more useful information than capacity test for AA alkalines.For anything current hungry I can always use lithium batteries or Eneloop rechargeables.Panasonic Industrial has been so far pretty good and they have 7 years self-life that is better than some other alkalines.

author: GlennSprigg
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 25, 2018, 12:59:05 pm
content: Hmmm... Re: prev 1/2 dozen comments, or so... Although 'Duracell' were good, and alwayscompeting heavily with 'EverReady' batteries, I wonder if the loss of quality is now due towhere they are now being made, with diminished quality control ??I'm a part-time musician, and it annoys me how certain previously 'high-end' Guitar makers,now have their factories in China... I'm sorry, but the quality/tonality/structure/wood etc etcis NOT the same as they 'used' to be. We are always 'Sold-Out' to production costs. I usedto willingly pay extra, if still hand-crafted in Canada, etc...

author: malagas_on_fire
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 25, 2018, 01:14:34 pm
content: Well buy some spare battery for testing in extreme enviroment conditions and check which leaks first... bahh thats too simple and maybe inacurate, but time will tell certainly. I had duracell on a bluetooth keyboard installed, no leaks, but that doesn't mean anything, since i've seen leaked ones.it is advised to do a battery inspection (aka teardown ) on brand new devices that came with them installed, such as calculators, multimeters, etc.I have seen in local stores some batteries for sale that passed the expiring date and someone end on promotion... yeah...

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 25, 2018, 11:30:16 pm
content: Quote from: GlennSprigg on September 25, 2018, 12:59:05 pmUnfortunately most companies (and most people) value the short term over the long term. A reputable brand can reduce their quality and keep selling a lot of units for a while on momentum. Then the other brands are forced to either follow the same approach to compete, or in most cases go under because too many people when given a choice between a $10 item and a superficially similar item that costs $150 will buy the $10 item every time. Pretty soon *all* the mainstream stuff is made in China at the lowest price available.Now China is certainly capable of producing quality goods, but companies that outsource production are usually not interested in paying enough to maintain quality.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 26, 2018, 03:20:28 pm
content: Quote from: rsjsouza on September 21, 2018, 03:04:50 pmI guess I spoke too soon. I just had a terrible experience with Duracells that were supposed to expire in 2025 but sprayed a gaseous white matter all around a precious toy of mine (an old HP95LX), ruining it in the process. In the spur of the moment I didn't take photographs, but I should have and ordered Duracell to refund my equipment!Oh well... I guess I moved to the team "Duratrash".

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 26, 2018, 05:05:43 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on September 25, 2018, 11:30:16 pmCompany changes hands too often and consequently the meaning of the brand change along with it. Each owner has its reason to purchase the brand. So, the meaning and the promise of the brand will change correspondingly.Look at Duracell's history:1964: Duracell brand started byP.R. Mallory Company.1978: P.R. Mallory was acquired byDart Industries.1980: Dart acquired/merged withKraft. Kraft is better known for its cheese, beverages, and food. Kraft was not much of an electro-chemical industry powerhouse I would say.1988:KK&R Investmentbrought Duracell, took the company public in 1989.1996: Duracell acquired byGillette. Gillette was best known for (disposable) razors, shaving supplies, and personal care products. I recall reading a business magazine article back then about the acquisition. The article speculated that rather like razors, batteries are use-and-dispose products. Thus, Gillette thought batteries fits their business model of throw away razors/blades.2005:P&Gacquired Gillette thus becoming the parent company owning Duracell. P&G is (was) known for its consumer goods such as cleaning agents, personal care, hygienics stuff and (at the time) Pringles Potato Chip.2014:Berkshire Hathawayannounced its intend to acquire Duracell. Berkshire Hathaway is an investment firm started/owned by the famous Warren Buffett. Deal completed 2015. 2016, Duracell (under Berkshire Hathaway) moved to Chicago, CEO replaced...My interpretationof the events is: Mallory developed a good battery, Kraft kind of messed it up with a cheese mindset. KK&R Investment saw the opportunity, purchased Duracell from Kraft and made a better company out of it. That Duracell isprobablyis the Duracell most identified with. KK&R (being an investment firm) cashed in and sold it to Gillette. Razors and batteries don't mix well. Now Berkshire Hathaway, another investment firm, will try to perhaps repeat what KK&R did. Or, it may just squeeze cost and vampire on it.When Jaquar became Indian owned (2016), when Volvo became Chinese owned (2010), and when even RCA (Radio Corporation ofAmerica) becameChinese(for a while, but now a Sony owned brand)... I suppose a word of wisdom could be: before one trust a brand for what it was, make sure what was is what is.Reference: Duracell history above is distilled from Wiki's Duracell page here:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duracell

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 26, 2018, 06:37:44 pm
content: It makes me sad the way so many companies buy and sell brands, and talk about "the brand" strictly as a marketing entity. Brands used to mean something, you could buy a Zenith TV and know it was a good quality product, you could buy a Volvo and know you were getting a quirky, safe, extremely practical car designed in Sweden by an engineering-driven company. You could buy a Duracell battery and know it was going to perform as advertised and be unlikely to leak.All of the above are now just names owned by various companies and slapped on whatever product they decide to market under those names. Consequently to me anyway brands have less relevance than ever, most are just a name stuck on something to justify the price point.

author: Gromitt
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 26, 2018, 10:05:34 pm
content: Quote from: Rick Law on September 26, 2018, 05:05:43 pmVolvo is still Swedish owned, Volvo Cars on the other hand is Chinese (but still based in Sweden).

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 27, 2018, 12:21:17 am
content: Quote from: Gromitt on September 26, 2018, 10:05:34 pmYes I realize that, but I'm not going to commute to work in a semi truck. Volvo cars changed dramatically some time after Ford bought them. They dropped the practical, engineer-driven function over form aspect that they had nailed so well in the 200/700/900 series and started chasing Audi and BMW in the luxury market. I drove a S80 T6 once and it certainly fast, but the thing was bloated beyond belief with gadgets and luxury bells & whistles, and not even an option to get one with a proper manual gearbox. That was more than 10 years ago, as far as I can tell they have gotten even more bloated since then.

author: Raj
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2018, 05:54:52 am
content: Well, I trust amazon basic. they never leaked on me.Duracell leaks a lot in comparison.

author: rokz
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: November 18, 2018, 09:58:20 am
content: Just joined up and would like to introduce myself based in Ireland/uk.Have been involved selling laptop battery packs,genuine Dell batteries for a good while now.Started as a Hobby and grew into more of a passion.Sometimes i do get in some very strange packs in and would appreciate your help identifying them as need to charge them appropriately .Please check attached photos !.Maybe someone can help me And thanks in advancehttps://drive.google.com/open?id=1dNzi9pKwSZvlSE6NZyVt4NyUaHsLJ6br