ITAR, 30 HZ, and sort-of-open-source - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: ikrase
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2019, 05:35:02 am
content: I understand that ITAR hampers any effort to make free, open source software to use 9+ Hz thermal cameras to their full capabilities, because said software / source code cannot be distributed on the public internet and still be restricted to the countries where it is legal to export such material.However, I wonder if there's still any point in a community effort that wouldn't publish the code itself on the internet (possibly distributing media by mail). Would this be a practical and legal option?

author: Ultrapurple
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2019, 07:43:01 am
content: That sounds like an interesting can of worms.During theCrypto Warsthere was a massive fight over export controls of strong cryptography - a form of software that was regarded as a munition, in much the same category as guns, nuclear-tipped missiles and 30Hz thermal cameras are today. In the news at the moment is a London man who has beenconvicted of making a gun using a 3D printerfrom information he downloaded from the internet. The issues surrounding Defense Distributedand possibly othershas been well documented. I am sure there are many more examples.I am in no position to make a comment on the legality or otherwise (in any jurisdiction) of releasing firmware / software such as you mention. Also, there remains the issue of obtaining suitable sensors - which are not the sort of thing you can make in your kitchen (unless you have aremarkablywell-equipped kitchen).As a hobbyist I welcome any move that will inch towards affordable hi-res thermal imaging becoming an everyday thing. The pragmatist in me recognises that there will also always be bad actors who wish to employ the technology for nefarious purposes. But the same has been said about technology throughout the ages - I suspect there was a massive internet argument about Gutenberg's printing press and how civilisation would be destroyed by the masses having access to information. Fortunately, back then in the 15th century the internet was the well-guarded preserve of intellectuals and alchemists.

author: ikrase
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2019, 07:57:50 am
content: As is often the case, this sort of thing is often not responded to until its already rather too late. What effect does the USA's export regulations have on the Israeli low-cost thermal cameras, which are imported into the USA rather than exported out?But on practical matters, the "suitable" (in a manner of speaking) sensor I'm thinking of is actually the Seek Thermal Compact Pro. It works nicely with JoeC Thermovision... but not at its ~15hz rate, and it's been stated that this is due to ITAR concerns.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2019, 09:35:22 am
content: Do what was done during the Crypto Wars.Print the source code out in a machine readable form; a font intended for OCR is best. Send it to a jurisdiction which lacks ITAR export restrictions. OCR it. Host it online.

author: Bill W
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2019, 11:42:22 am
content: Quote from: ikrase on June 21, 2019, 07:57:50 amThe simple answer is that Israeli export controls apply, they are 'export' controls.Once in the US, US export controls would apply to get it out.There are 'temporary import certificates' available to allow 'visits' by controlled items, which can avoid them getting stuck in the US, but sometimes things get stuck there anyway.Bill

author: Bill W
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2019, 11:51:08 am
content: Quote from: ikrase on June 21, 2019, 07:57:50 amIt all depends on where the 9Hz limit is applied.If the sensor is fundamentally fixed as 15Hz or 9Hz when exported, then the 15Hz version is the controlled item and the software is rather academic.If all sensors are 15Hz, but are exported as cameras with software to make them 9Hz, then the 15Hz software is also a controlled item, and a 'speed upgrade software' is also a controlled item that would attract attention.Any open source showing the 15Hz / 9Hz mechanism would also be controlled.The 'printout' method is not legally watertight, posting it to the uncontrolled location to be scanned would be an offence under Wassenaar.Bill

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2019, 12:02:50 pm
content: With the heightened tensions in the World at this point in time. I would advise against ‘testing the water’ regarding pushing the boundaries of thermal imaging equipment and technical document regulationsIran have been trying to replicate US Drone technology for some time. The RS-170 drone specifically. From what I understand, they still struggle to replicate the more advanced parts of that drones payload. Thermal imaging equipment may be part of that payload. Whether China would help in such a development is for the Intelligence services to decide and comment upon. Israel now have an example of the Iranian ‘clone’ that they brought down. I certainly would not want to be in any way associated with that clone or it’s systems !https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_Martin_RQ-170_SentinelFraser

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2019, 08:59:33 pm
content: Quote from: Bill W on June 21, 2019, 11:51:08 amBut it would not be an offense under US law because software source code is protected by the 1st Amendment. There have been two appeals court decisions on this so far:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernstein_v._United_Stateshttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Junger_v._DaleyThe result was the U.S. government relaxing the regulations to prevent a court challenge they feared losing.

author: Spirit532
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2019, 12:48:33 am
content: There's only one place that will more or less freely export LWIR and MWIR-capable devices - China.The company that would do this would have to be based somewhere outside Wassenaar, ITAR, and other international agreements.I propose it gets named "Offshore Thermal"But in all seriousness, nowadays, unless the source code is proprietary and publishing it is a violation of copyright/privacy, I seriously doubt that putting the source code and FPGA HDL for something you designed to github or the like will provoke any action. The same goes for all the hardware, maybe besides the sensor design, but if you designed and manufactured your own LWIR microbolometer, you wouldn't be discussing it here.

author: ikrase
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2019, 06:19:17 am
content: That's definitely true, but there still definitely is a pattern of consumer IR devices being exported to various "first-world" countries with (from the consumer's point of view) fairly limited fuss.I was originally envisioning this as a way to prevent international distribution, rather than as a way to cause international distribution in a technically legal way.

author: IwuzBornanerd
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2019, 10:17:03 pm
content: Quote from: ikrase on June 22, 2019, 06:19:17 amI have thought about this a little bit myself since I have software whichcouldenable a Seek pro to run at >9fpsIF I hadthe magic commands--which I do NOT. But if I did have such commands it would be nice to help out my fellow Americans. But just because someone is living in the US does not mean it is safe for me to give them the information.As I have pointed out before, according to U.S. regulations things do not need to leave the US in order to be considered exported. Something is exported when it is transferred to a "foreign person". I don't know if there is any additional fuss for such person to then get it out of the US. Some relevant definitions of export (& "deemed export"), foreign person & US person can be found on this web page:https://osp.mit.edu/compliance/export-control/definitions#exportSo the issue is going to be how to make sure the other person is a US person. As I recall from the "export compliance training", we are expected to make a "reasonable effort" at determining if someone is a foreign person. I think the training videos had some examples of what constituted a reasonable effort, but I don't recall just what was included and I think they were all face-to-face situations. It would be good if someone who has had recent "training" on this stuff could weigh in on this detail.Without knowing exactly what my government considers sufficient effort, I don't know if I could convince myself that I am sure enough unless I see the person face to face & see a government issued "secure ID card".The odds of giving the codes to a forbidden person while trying not to might be very small but the price of getting caught is very high, including having one's assets confiscated and one'sassetc. thrown in jail.

author: m98
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2019, 02:19:13 am
content: I know of a few companies just here in Germany that manufacture ITAR-free thermal imagers with frame rates of over 60 fps. There are probably a few more worldwide, especially in China and Japan.In general, many European companies are starting to take care to keep their supply-chain as US-free as possible to avoid the uncertainities imposed by them.

author: Spirit532
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2019, 04:14:24 am
content: ITAR-free doesn't mean free of export controls. Germany and most of Europe has Wassenaar.

author: Bill W
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2019, 10:50:51 am
content: Quote from: m98 on July 03, 2019, 02:19:13 amNot just ITAR-free, US-free. The US export rules for dual use items (eg 320x240/60Hz thermal) although based on Wassenaar have some extra restrictions that persist after sale. That was one reason for the end of Argus3 and the ISG K-90 fire cameras (Raytheon BST = US dual use EAR controlled core). The EAR was going to be tightened up and so the core was no longer commercially practical to sell.Both switched over to ULIS (French) and then all camera sales were solely under the UK laws implementing Wassenaar.I believe at least one company located its' sensor fabrication in Canada, not the US, for the same reason.Bill

author: ixfd64
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2019, 08:49:12 pm
content: I've never heard of a law that says you can't publish source code for export-controlled products.Quote from: Spirit532 on June 22, 2019, 12:48:33 amMy thoughts exactly. There are open-source implementations of GPS that don't have CoCom limits, and they've never gotten in trouble either. Have any open-source projects ever received cease and desist letters from export control authorities?

author: ArsenioDev
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2019, 09:06:24 pm
content: QuoteSay what? Last one I was tracking went dark YEARS ago

author: ixfd64
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2019, 09:10:20 pm
content: Quote from: ArsenioDev on July 03, 2019, 09:06:24 pmI was thinking about GNSS-SDR:https://github.com/gnss-sdr/gnss-sdr

author: Gerhard_dk4xp
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2019, 10:03:43 pm
content: Quote from: Bill W on June 21, 2019, 11:42:22 amI heard that a large BMW with headup display and night vision got stuck on its way back to Bavaria.We also did not get the solder instructions for space-proof FPGAs for a thing to go to the ISS because of ITAR.Nor did I get the triple module redundancy tool by Xilinx. And the configuration memory scrubbing app-note(XAPP-186 IIRC) has disappeared from the earth's face. Occasionally, there is still a reference to it.Maybe if we really would have done a lot of noise...Instead I wrote VHDL packages that behave like std_logic_vector etc. that hide the redundancy,voting and correction under the hood. Much more elegant and better for fine-grain-TMR.Now I can build ITAR-free tamagotchis for the children of Fukushima, or whatever.Collaboration between AMSAT and AMSAT-DE... has also pretty much ceased. Easy to google.regards, Gerhard

author: Ultrapurple
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2019, 07:01:29 pm
content: Quote from: Gerhard_dk4xp on July 03, 2019, 10:03:43 pmI am tempted to suggest that's one reason why the world's first geostationary satellite carrying an amateur radio relay, QO-100, is stationed above Africa and gives coverage from Brazil across the Atlantic and all of continental Europe to Singapore, Mongolia and even Murmansk.Of course it could also be pure chance that the footprint stops just short of US soil