Should I buy Siglent SDS1202X or Rigol 1054z - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: rkovvur
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: January 14, 2016, 08:26:32 pm
content: Hi All:I am newbie to these forms and I am aware of the heated discussions between Rigol and Siglent. I am planning on buying an oscilloscope soon and I am totally at loss in deciding which one to buyWhile i like lower cost or the Rigol and its 4 channels, all the new bells and whistles of the Siglent are tempting.While I am not a newbie to Electronics(I am a digital engineer), I am sorta new to Oscilloscopes.I would really like to hear what you think would be the better equipment to put hard earned money intoThanks !

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2016, 09:57:28 am
content: Quote from: rkovvur on January 14, 2016, 08:26:32 pmI've left this thread unanswered for 12+ hrs thinking you'd be recommended the 1054Z as seems to be commonly done here but it seems maybe some are having second thoughts.So to offer some info may help:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1000x-series-oscilloscopes/I'm aware of further reviews coming soon, so if you can hold off for a bit there should be further info to help you choose.The Siglent has a better front end, that is capable of higher BW to the -3dB point where signals suffer attenuation making measurements inaccurate.While many hack the 1054Z, the 500uV range is not recommended, yet the SDS1000X series come with that range as standard and it is much lower noise than the 1054Z.The other UI concern for some is the channel controls, be it one for each channel or one control shared between all channels, each of us prefer one or the other, this is another choice you'll need to make.All this aside, you've not given us much to go on relating to your intended use and the features that are important to you.Therewillbe replies warning you of bugs, and this applies to most DSO's in this price range that are of recent release, albeit a shame this is the case. But you've seen all the threads haven't you?

author: Marcos
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2016, 02:03:32 pm
content: I was the "proud" owner of a Rigol 1054z. My advice. Don't buy it.At first I was carried away with so much enthusiasm on this forum and Dave videos and decided to buy it.Once I got it, I discovered that it is full of bugs and very unstable, noisy inputs a.s.o.Have no idea how Siglent are managing these problems but probably much better than Rigol. Not to mention that if a bug is reported to Rigol it will take years to fix that. After those years, you'll be surprised to see that after fixing those bugs they will induce new ones to the newest firmwares.

author: CustomEngineerer
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2016, 03:26:47 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on January 15, 2016, 09:57:28 amMy guess is most posters are getting tired of responding to the same exact question every week.

author: rrinker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2016, 03:38:55 pm
content: I just bought a Siglent SDS1102CML - no, not exactly comparable to the model you are looking at, but this was more than good enough for my needs, and I am so far quite happy with my purchase - particularly as I got a brand new unit for $100USD less than they usually sell for. I haven't had a chance to get everything set up and actually get to work on things, so mostly I've just been playing around with it and exploring the features. Never used a Rigol, so I have no basis to compare, but I'm happy with my Siglent purchase.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2016, 06:33:19 pm
content: Quote from: Marcos on January 15, 2016, 02:03:32 pmSiglent isn't much better so pick your poison...

author: CustomEngineerer
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2016, 06:34:27 pm
content: To the OP: My previous comment wasn't a shot at you (or anyone else), hopefully you didn't read it that way. To answer your question, they are both somewhat buggy scopes, both Rigol & Siglent are actively working on fixing issues. New firmware that fixes previous issues (and introduces new issues on occasion) comes out fairly regularly from both. The both also tend to introduce new features from time to time. I've owned a Rigol DS2072A-S for over a year and have really enjoyed it. None of the bugs have affected anything I've needed it for, granted I don't do anything too advanced with it. For what I use it for the Siglent SDS2000 probably would work just as well.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2016, 06:50:46 pm
content: If you don't do anything advanced like protocol decoding or need deep memory then you will be much better off getting a second hand scope from one of the big brands (Agilent, Tektronix, Lecroy, Iwatsu, Yokogawa).

author: rkovvur
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: January 15, 2016, 08:00:11 pm
content: Hi All:I really appreciate all your responses. I did figure that lot of people might ask the question on which one is betterI tinker more with microcontrollers during my spare time and I do have a logic analyzer. However I'd like to get back to analog and spend some time understanding op-amps and mosfets and RC circuits. Hence the oscilloscope.I definitely dont think i'll be working with anything that might need a 100+mhz scope. I am also trying to avoid my bad habit of buying the "shiny new toy".The SDS1202X has 'latest model' cred to it.The DS105z has the advantage of 2 extra ports and being $160 cheaper, considering my requirements.As one of you pointed out, maybe i need to wait bit more before I dive in.

author: warnberg
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2016, 08:07:45 pm
content: I chose the Rigol 1054Z and have never looked back..I'm completely satisfied with the scope, might be a bug here or there but I haven't run across them with what I am doing..I too see the "noisy" or "buggy" comments.. but I have no complaints... 400.00 scope and get 4 channels and can unlock it to 100 Mhz, whats there to complain about?JMODavid

author: Mark
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2016, 10:52:35 pm
content: I bought the 1054z and was more than happy with it. When I needed another 4 channels I bought a second one. I also have a Keysight MSO-X 3054A but the Rigols are the best bang for buck, you can't go wrong at $400.

author: bcbeck96
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: January 20, 2016, 11:18:58 pm
content: I own a DS1054z, and have used the SDS1202x, would take the Rigol over the Siglant, not by a large margin but enough not to buy the Siglent.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 20, 2016, 11:31:50 pm
content: Quote from: bcbeck96 on January 20, 2016, 11:18:58 pmCould you share why?First DSO?Familiarity with Rigol products?Specs?UI?

author: ECEdesign
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 21, 2016, 02:27:22 am
content: Slightly related topic,what is generally more useful, higher bandwidth or 4 vs 2 channels?

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 21, 2016, 02:48:04 am
content: Quote from: CustomEngineerer on January 15, 2016, 03:26:47 pmQuoted for truth.This question has been discussed to death, anyone looking for info need only read what's already here instead of pestering with a new thread asking the same thing as the thread a few days ago, and the one a few days prior, ad infinitum.Quote from: ECEdesign on January 21, 2016, 02:27:22 amWhat's better, a spoon or a knife? In other words, it depends entirely on what you're gonna use it for.

author: lem_ix
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 21, 2016, 02:45:00 pm
content: If the bandwidth is non issue, 4 channels seem more useful. Don't have experience with any of their scopes but I do have a rigol dg1032z and a siglent spd3303s and i like the fit and finish of the rigol better. Bottom line both are probably adequate, if possible play around with them a bit and see which UI you like better

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 21, 2016, 04:19:07 pm
content: Quote from: blueskull on January 21, 2016, 03:08:41 amThis might seem to be the case but actually Siglent is just 4 years younger than Rigol.QuoteYes, they now make a photospectrometer and an automatic sampling system. But I'd be surprised if Rigol really develops their own ASICs, from what I know they are mostly busy withs scrubbing the imprints from the commodity components they buy.Do you have any reference to that ASIC?QuoteNot sure about the "tons of patents" as I was only able to find a single one:http://patents.justia.com/assignee/rigol-technologies-incDo you have a reference for the other patents they are supposedly holding?

author: rf-loop
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 21, 2016, 05:19:06 pm
content: Quote from: blueskull on January 21, 2016, 05:11:44 pmAre these ASIC's ?Also I can buy chips even with my name if I want or with my logo or just with my signature if I want. It is really easy. Just set order and send money.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 22, 2016, 12:29:00 am
content: Quote from: rkovvur on January 15, 2016, 08:00:11 pmI'll add more findings FYIThe SDS1102X has a higher BW -3dB point ~280 MHz and a true 500uV low noise range.https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1000x-series-oscilloscopes/msg825532/#msg825532There is further info in that thread to assist you with any decision.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 22, 2016, 06:36:48 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on January 21, 2016, 05:11:44 pmAs rf-loop said that means nothing, as you can order many commodity parts with your own label if you buy large quantities. Plus Chinese manufacturers often just re-label ICs themselves to obfuscate where they come from.I very doubt Rigol has the technology to design their own ASICs or even ADCs.QuoteCould be Chinese, but it's questionable how well many of these patents would stand internationally. There seems to be a lot of stuff on which Chinese grant patents that wouldn't even be patentable in the US (and the USPTO grants pantents on a lot of silly things).

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 22, 2016, 07:00:21 am
content: Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on January 22, 2016, 06:36:48 amAlmost anyone can turn out a pure digital ASIC. High quality ADCs are tougher. In fact any mixed signal device is tougher. However, their biggest hurdle with mixed signal would be justifying the NRE for their modest volumes. Especially when they haven't moved into the rarified atmosphere where the merchant market can't supply them with perfectly serviceable parts.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 22, 2016, 07:35:57 am
content: Quote from: coppice on January 22, 2016, 07:00:21 amI meant that Rigol is unlikely to have the capability to design something like a complex high speed ADC hybrid or signal processing ASIC like the ones you find in modern mid-range/high-end scopes (there's little point doing this for entry level scopes for which lots of generic parts are available at low cost).Sorry I should have been more clear. You're both right of course with that pretty much anyone can design their own ASIC.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 22, 2016, 07:43:40 am
content: Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on January 22, 2016, 07:35:57 amI doubt their expertise would be the limiting factor. Market acceptance of any exotic products from them would be. Everyone attacking the high end with custom silicon has to accept that a large slice of NRE will be loaded onto each chip produced. If they can't get a lot of people to take them seriously as a supplier of exotic instruments, and go head to head with Keysight and LeCroy, the size of that slice would become unbearable.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 22, 2016, 08:06:08 am
content: Quote from: coppice on January 22, 2016, 07:43:40 amIt certainly will be. There's a lot of proprietary IP in the ASICs from Keysight, LeCroy, R&S & Co, coming as the result of pretty large investments in R&D, and this IP is generally kept under lock and protection. Especially the high speed ADC hybrids (i.e. 20GSa/s and up) that you can find in a modern high end scope are highly complex, and there are only just a few companies that can actually make them.Rigol would need to do their own research (which they don't do and are unlikely to be able to afford at a similar scale anyways). And even if they did they'd a very hard time to turn it into profits at least in the T&M market (they might do in other markets like defense in China, though, but the question is if this is large enough to justify the costs).

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 22, 2016, 08:14:27 am
content: Get either, it's better than a forum member around here that kept on asking on many options for what seemed a full year. I do think he finally got one.It's like your first place to live on your own, buy it, rent it whatever. Once you experience the place then you know what you need, until then you can rely on other people's needs but those might not match your own.Whatever you decide wont be a total lost, baby it and if you find out it lacks on some features and the other has them and its a better match, then sell yours for a little lost.

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 22, 2016, 08:21:38 am
content: For someone's first experience with a scope, 7 days might not be enough anyways.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 22, 2016, 08:34:20 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on January 22, 2016, 08:07:35 amAn MPW only gets you development samples. Its $1M for a 90nm mask set to get into production.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 22, 2016, 08:41:43 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on January 22, 2016, 08:07:35 amI'm not sure that the old Tek MSO/DPO2k scopes really sell that well (most of them go to the edu market which pays so little that there isn't much margin left, out there in the commercial market they actually don't sell very well at all) but Tek's ASICs for their low end scopes are pretty much based on designs from 15 years ago and the investment costs have been paid off a long time ago already, so the current costs are pretty low.QuoteThere's no way that would be cheaper, in fact it would cost Rigol a lot more to roll their own ASICs. Commodity parts are cheap through huge volume (magnitudes more than Rigol sells through their products, which are tiny in comparison), they are well understood and documented, and they come as ready-to-use package that has been specified, qualified and is guaranteed by its manufacturer.Rolling your own ASIC means you have to come up with a design (which means spending $$$), you have to test/verify it (which means spending even more $$$), you might have to adapt your software development toolset (even more $$$), and if everything works you have to fab it out to a supplier who will simply be unable to give you a really low price because the volume is too low.There's a reason why for entry level scopes even the big brands (which do have higher margins than Rigol) either use old and long paid of ASIC designs (i.e. Tek, Keysight) or just go with commodity parts (i.e. LeCroy, R&S), all companies which have tons of experience in designing their own ASICs. There's little point in re-inventing the wheel for the bottom end of the market.QuoteThere's a good article about why custom ASICs aren't really cheap:http://www.planetanalog.com/author.asp?section_id=526&doc_id=559840Of course that assumes you do it properly. You could probably also get away with some cheap EE students using some free EDA tools that come up with something, and then have it produced by one of these cheap IC fabs in an ancient 90nm process, but it still won't be anywhere near as cheap as the commodity part.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 22, 2016, 09:05:35 am
content: Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on January 22, 2016, 08:06:08 amI think you seriously underestimate the technical capabilities that Rigol could call upon. Converters running at 20Gsps or more are a serious systems design exercise. They end up being mostly digital parts, trying to handle the storm of digital data in real time. Some real ingenuity is needed to come up with architectures that stop the complexity getting out of control. Once people are funded to sit down and work through things like that, you might be surprised at the progress which can be made. It all comes down to finance. Keysight have fast converters not because there is something special about being Keysight, but because they had a sufficiently high value niche to justify the investment.Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on January 22, 2016, 08:06:08 amAnd there you have the issue. Is there enough market to generate enough cash to justify enough investment to have people solve the problems? The small number of players in high end instruments has a lot more to do with the size of the market than technical capabilities.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 22, 2016, 09:09:46 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on January 22, 2016, 09:03:38 amIsn't eASIC just a sea of gates company, where your only NRE with them is the metal masks? That's a lot like mask programming an FPGA, and the FPGA suppliers can offer you some of the functionality, and cost benefit, today.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 22, 2016, 09:27:14 am
content: Quote from: coppice on January 22, 2016, 09:05:35 amWe never said Chinese are bad at making hardware. It is the software they can't wrap their head around!

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 22, 2016, 09:28:46 am
content: An ASIC in high volumes will be cheaper in cost.They also will have a lower power consumptions and better performance.On the other hand the FPGA can be changed so you are not committed to a particular design.At least that is my understanding.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 22, 2016, 10:01:31 am
content: Quote from: coppice on January 22, 2016, 09:05:35 amMight well be, but I doubt that (but I'd be glad to be proven wrong). Just look at their products, which pretty much only excel through their low price. As far as technology goes, none of Rigol's products are anything to write home about, even their top end products are pretty basic. Also, their products are cheap because they use commodity parts in their designs, which keeps costs low.This raises a few questions, like where all the supposedly advanced technical capabilities within Rigol are showing. Or why a manufacturer that has built a very successful business model on building cheap bottom-of-the-barrel and entry-level T&M and lab gear using commodity parts would invest money in acquiring the technical expertise required to roll their own complex ASIC designs, especially when it's not beneficial to their market segment?It might well be that Rigol wants to get away from being a producer of cheap kit to a reputable brand that is considered not just by hobbyists, but then the first steps certainly would be improving their current offerings, especially in terms of firmware maturity and support.So no, I don't believe I underestimate Rigol's capabilities. But as I said I'm open to be proven wrong.QuoteWhile of course I agree with what you say about the complexity of 20+GSa/s converters, I don't with your last statement about the niche. In fact, one of the (not T&M related) markets I work in is pretty much screaming for high speed ADC hybrids, the faster the better. The margins in this market are a lot bigger than say for high end scopes. Still, there are very few vendors who can offer fast ADCs, because as you stated correctly the complexity is pretty high which limits the number of manufacturers that can deliver them to a handful of high tech companies (plus 20Gsa/s is the lower end of the spectrum, most of the time we're talking in excess of 80GSa/s). Keysight has a ton of IP and patents on their designs, as has Tek, R&S and LeCroy, which is because all invest a lot of money into R&D.Keysight has over 9k employees and over $2bn revenue, Tek has still some 4k+ employees and over $1.5bn revenue, R&S has almost 10k employees and some $2bn revenue, and LeCroy has approx 450 employees and some $200M revenue. I find it pretty hard to believe that Rigol (for which I couldn't find any revenue numbers, but I'm sure they are well below $200M) which has some 400 employees for their whole product portfolio (which includes scopes, spectrum analyzers, PSUs, DVMs, RF and frequency generators plus their lab gear) will have the same technical ressources as say LeCroy who's 500+ employees are pretty much dedicated to upper midrange/high-end scopes only. The number and type of patents Rigol is holding seem to confirm that.But as I said I'd be glad to be proven wrong.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 22, 2016, 10:07:15 am
content: Quote from: miguelvp on January 22, 2016, 09:28:46 amYes, but "high volumes" usually means volumes in the Millions, and even then it's not always assured.QuoteNot necessarily, especially when produced in older processes like 90nm. Like many things, it depends, and commodity parts are pretty good these days.QuoteYes, that's one thing. The other is that the part you get has been specified, qualified and tested, so you know what you're getting. With your own ASIC that is up to you, which can make for a substantial parts of the cost.

author: diyaudio
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 22, 2016, 10:19:15 am
content: Quote from: coppice on January 22, 2016, 09:05:35 am+1 Could not say that better myself.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 22, 2016, 10:27:37 am
content: Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on January 22, 2016, 10:01:31 amDo you really think that if reasonable volume applications existed for a well defined device the likes of TI, ADI, Linear and Maxim couldn't turn out these products? There are 80Gsps converters in the merchant market right now, but they are embedded in comms devices, where the storm of sample data doesn't have to escape the die. Fujitsu has no history as a state of the art ADC maker, but they have such a device. I note that one, because you can find an extensive slide set about it on line. Its an interesting read, especially when you think beyond what it is saying about the problems caused by that storm of sample data, and consider its implications for trying to make a general purpose device. I don't know the details of what Keysight and LeCroy's fast ADCs look like, but I remember someone from Keysight saying they are anything but general purpose.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 22, 2016, 10:44:33 am
content: Quote from: rkovvur on January 15, 2016, 08:00:11 pmYou might be surprised.Even 74LVC logic has >500MHz components in its outputs, and can be problematic if you don't have appropriate signal lines and terminations. If, as I hear rumoured, things like the RPi have 2ns transitions times, they will have 200MHz components. IMNSHO, a good used for a scope is to ensure digital signal integrity, an once that's good you should debug in the digital domain with logic analysers and printf statementsOpamps and mosfets can have high frequency tranisents and/or oscillations ("amplifiers oscillators, oscillators won't").If by RC you mean radio control, then RF is best examined using a spectrum analyser; scopes are insufficient. Consider RTL-SDR dongles as a first step for both wideband power measurements and narrowband modulation measurements.

author: ziplock9000
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2016, 06:05:43 am
content: Is the Rigol DS1054Z still the sub £500 "go to" scope for almost 2017

author: ProBang2
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2016, 06:22:59 am
content: As an versatile stand-alone oscilloscope for beginners or for the hobby: Yes.(If you consider the possible and easy "hack": It can´t be beaten.)

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2016, 06:53:37 am
content: Hell, we're not even there yet and there's a whole 12 months for competitors to to release a model that surpasses it.

author: ProBang2
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2016, 07:39:00 am
content: With todays knowledge I can´t give a different opinion.Problem: Any competitor is aware of the"Osborne effect".E.g. a SDS1104X, including decoding and roughly at the same pricepoint as a DS1054Z would be for sure a bestseller.

author: Blisk
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2017, 12:04:16 pm
content: Whole page of what one company should do and another can't.And what they mabe will do or not.But much less info which scope is better.