Pet peeve - Audiophilephoolery - Vacuum Tubes  - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: T4P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 23, 2012, 01:14:42 pm
content: Hey , it's the 21st century already , time to move on , that is SO 1930's .Does anyone agree with me ?

author: tecman
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 23, 2012, 03:06:01 pm
content: YES

author: Hideki
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 23, 2012, 03:28:56 pm
content: No. Guitar amps in general don't fall into the "Audiophile" category.They are designed to distort heavily in a pleasing way when overdriven, and not to be linear and perfect and accurately reproduce the sound of the guitar.So far no one has managed to create a similar effect with transistors, so the alternative is using digital processing to try to model the tube amp. That isn't always a great success when you turn up the gain. It's damn hard to write good sounding code for this. The amp then needs to be very clean and never clip, since the distortion processing is done on the DSP instead.

author: ampdoctor
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 23, 2012, 03:29:49 pm
content: I completely disagree! True they're expensive, temperamental, heavy boat anchors that waste power like no other. However nothing and I mean NOTHING sounds like a tube amplifier. From a listeners perspective most people probably can't tell the difference but as a guitar player you'll feel it. In the hands of a musician that knows what they're doing they'll move from clean amplification and into signal compression or over drive, or can be pushed into feedback in certain frequency bands all from just the way you play the guitar. They also generally color the sound in rather unique ways and become less of a tool and more of an extension of your instrument.And from a technical perspective, they're very easy to service! As a touring or regularly gigging band that plays bars and other misc watering holes, equipment is subject to pretty severe duty and no matter how well equipment is made, the stuff fails in service with alarming regularity. And having a tool that is built entirely with discrete analog components that can be field serviced within minutes is a significant feature.As a strange aside, tube amplifiers might actually have a smaller carbon footprint than new production consumer electronics. I'd be very interested to see some hard numbers on this. They're very hard to actually destroy and they're designed to be maintained, repaired and put back into service. I've seen and worked on some of these things that were every bit of 50-75 years old and operate as well as when they were new. Buy a tube amp and it will not become landfill, unless some idiot outright abuses it. Buy a well made valve amp and it's useful lifespan will in all likelihood be longer than the owner's.

author: Excavatoree
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 23, 2012, 03:46:33 pm
content: I agree with Hidek and ampdoctor. Their posts pretty much sum up my thoughts.

author: T4P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 23, 2012, 03:55:32 pm
content: Quote from: Hideki on March 23, 2012, 03:28:56 pmI know . The audiophile's vacuum tubes are part of my hatred .And , people who say they want their music "warm" is just stupid . Stupid . STUPID !

author: Excavatoree
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 23, 2012, 04:06:30 pm
content: Heck, "warm" isn't even the worst adjective they use. I read someone say that if you tightened the speaker cable nuts too much, you'd get "tight" sound. I can't remember the exact quote, but this guy said something like "get the tension correct and you'll release audio nirvana, get it too tight or too loose and it won't sound good. You need to get just the right tension.Not to mention the guy selling AC receptacles for 100 US dollars, because they were cooled. ("cryo-treated.") They do that to tubes, too. No metallurgist I know of will say that such treatment does anything.

author: T4P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 23, 2012, 04:23:31 pm
content: Quote from: Excavatoree on March 23, 2012, 04:06:30 pmYeah ... Cryogenic wires ... WOOHOO !*davejones style*

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 23, 2012, 05:10:46 pm
content: Quote from: Dave.S on March 23, 2012, 03:55:32 pmAnd yet you posted a picture of a guitar amp?

author: Randall W. Lott
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 23, 2012, 05:28:05 pm
content: Tubes absolutely sound different. I'm all for making fun of the people who think cables sound better, but tubes have a desired sound for musical instruments.The only bass guitar amplifier that I've heard that accurately reproduces a vacuum tube sound is theGlockenklang Soul. It's German and it's expensive; as you could expect.I wouldn't waste my money on a stupid $5000 microphone preamplifier that has a frequency response of 7Hz-85kHz. You might even start to hear past 20kHz after you buy it!

author: T4P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 23, 2012, 05:32:16 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on March 23, 2012, 05:10:46 pmPremier Guitar's shameless promotion of tube amps caught my eye first .But in any case ,AWFUL

author: T4P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 23, 2012, 05:35:03 pm
content: Quote from: Randall W. Lott on March 23, 2012, 05:28:05 pmI , am a professional musician of metalcore and find tubes STUPID . They do not fulfill the sound i want and of course , don't want a massive power bill , neither do i want tubes that fail every now and then , i want SILICON that lasts till the machine breaks .Why would you want tubes ? They're expensive , chews power like a gorilla .Mind you i am a guitarist .

author: Randall W. Lott
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 23, 2012, 06:28:23 pm
content: Quote from: Dave.S on March 23, 2012, 05:35:03 pmI have no tube gear in my rig, but I can say that I enjoy the sound more. However, many of the lines they use to sell the gear is ridiculous. It's preference and both have their own sound. To each their own. I find some solid state amps to be very brittle sounding, where tubes produce the crunch and meat that I love.Great example of tube guitar sound:If I'm not allowed to post this link, I will delete it.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 23, 2012, 07:50:33 pm
content: Quote from: Dave.S on March 23, 2012, 05:35:03 pmAnd I listen to rock music and the like, none of which would be remotely the same without tube amps.Please don't be so narrow minded.

author: tekfan
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 23, 2012, 07:57:54 pm
content: I repair Hammond organs and the new XK-3 is simply no match for the old B-3. Maybe it's down to the tonewheel generator?BTW the XK-3 has a small 12AX7 tube so you can add distortion. But it still sucks.

author: Randall W. Lott
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 23, 2012, 09:29:10 pm
content: TubesTransistors

author: AntiProtonBoy
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 23, 2012, 11:12:25 pm
content: You can easily replicate such effects in a DSP.Also, for a good discussion on this topic, check this thread:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/suggestions/teardown-of-a-valve-guitar-amplifier/

author: ejeffrey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 24, 2012, 12:20:27 am
content: Quote from: Dave.S on March 23, 2012, 05:35:03 pmPlenty of people find metalcore STUPID and they are just as wrong as you. Electric guitar amps (solid state or valve) are not hi-fi and they are not supposed to be. They are part of the instrument and are supposed to make the sound you want. The sound you want and the way you get it is a personal stylistic choice of the musician and by definition cannot be right or wrong.Tubes are however objectively bad in terms of objective figures of merit for sound reproduction such as THD+noise, as well as practical issues like power, durability, and longevity. They are a bad choice if your goal is to accurately replicate the input signal.

author: david77
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 24, 2012, 01:00:29 am
content: Quote from: ejeffrey on March 24, 2012, 12:20:27 amObjectively you are right but exactly the THD that a valve amp adds is what many people like about them. I'm neither pro nor contra tubes as such but I've built some tube stuff (mostly pre-amps and RIAA stages) for me and others and with due care it is possible to get surprisingly good results with these antiquated things. I'm not talking about "sound" or any such nonesense, that I leave to the audiophools - after all you cannot quantitatively measure "sound". I'm talking about carefully taken measurements that allow to judge the quality of the amp.I've also fixed a few old valve radios (40+ years) and most of them didn't work because of bad caps not because the tubes were worn out. Same story in my 1961 vintage Hameg scope. In that respect I can't see much difference to modern semiconductor based equipment. Most consumer gear fails because of shorted/exploded/dried out caps, I should think. At least the relatively modern valves (E series) themselves seem to be quite rugged.

author: Greg323i
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 24, 2012, 04:19:06 am
content: Quote from: Dave.S on March 23, 2012, 05:35:03 pmIt's great that you found your sound in solid state, but to put down tubes simple because you like sand is pretty narrow-minded. It's like saying "I drive a Fiat, therefore all other cars are crap." Even Dimebag changed to tubes towards the end of his career because he found something he liked better.I agree completely with AmpDr's post. Tubes can behugelytemperamental. My main amp originally came with 6550s when I bought it and it would meltdown one of the tubes every 6 months of light playing. Having to replace 4 6550s every six months was not cheap. I then found that it's supposed to have KT88s but they weren't available at the time. Having 640V on the gate was melting the 6550s as they weren't designed for that. Once the KT88s became available again and I put them in the amp I haven't had a problem and the tone of the amp improved immensely as well.

author: FenderBender
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 24, 2012, 04:37:44 am
content: Quote from: AntiProtonBoy on March 23, 2012, 11:12:25 pmYeah I was going to say...You could probably analyze a few tubes, replicate them, and then let the musician change between different tube sounds.

author: T4P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 24, 2012, 05:53:51 am
content: The actual reason i chose solid state , was1 ) Cost .2 ) I want my sound to go out pure .3 ) I buy my amps 'DSP-modelled' that has power amp overdriving protection .But all in all , go check out the Kustom KG100 .

author: oddeohead
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 24, 2012, 04:49:34 pm
content: Just going to throw a few points in here. I work on truckloads of tube and solid state MI gear. I custom build and modify both as well. It isn't just about the tone as that in istself is subjective. There is also a "feel" to a tube amp that although they are getting better at is not in most solid state equipment. I am an engineer (yes a real one with my fancy paper degree) and have an appreciation for all electronics be it tube or solid state. It boils down to the player and what truely inspires the artist. Not to sound like an ass but...."if you don't play the instrument, you will NEVER get it"Surely you will understand how everything inside that chassis works but the artist doesn't care about that. So to each his own and whatever makes people happy should be just that!I agree with the over hyped aduio cables etc but we are talking narrow mid band amplifiers that are purpose built with high distortion for a reason!This is the secon thread I have seen started about this topic and nobody ever wins the debate.People buy what they like and nobody else's opinion can overcome that want. In the MI industry it is called GAS (Gear Acquisition Syndrome)I know so many players who spend more than a cost of a house per year on gear. They can afford to so go for it!Anyways...that is just my 2 cents.Jeff

author: T4P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 24, 2012, 05:35:15 pm
content: I know , but the biggest problem with them musicians is that , to them ,Solid state is bullshit and should die .They think Solid State is noisy and chews power while doing nothing .They think Solid State breaks down every now and then ( Actually , manufacturers make the SS amps as cheap as possible . )They think tube watts is louder then solid state watts . It's just the mid-bump .

author: Pentium100
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 24, 2012, 08:04:49 pm
content: Sure, tubes distort more, but it's the "good" kind of distortion. For me it is more fun to listen to some music using my tube tape recorder rather than a transistor one, even though the transistor tape deck sounds almost exactly like the source.Also, tube amps (be it old or new) usually are easy to repair - there are no programmable chips (good luck if that chip blew up or the programming just dissipated after 15 years), BGAs or PCBs with invisible signal layers (no way to draw the schematic from the PCB if there is no service manual available).Also, using a DSP to recreate the tube sound seems "fake" to me and I do not like fake stuff. In addition to the problems with flash memory failing after 15 years or so, hope you managed to make a backup of the EEPROMs or those chips last longer. Also, new stuff seems to be designed to fail just after the warranty expires.

author: T4P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 24, 2012, 10:39:26 pm
content: Wait , "fake" is all wrong .By using fake to describe the sound of DSP is like one of thoseaudiophoolery guys.If you don't like the distortion of solid state , TURN IT DOWN THEN !

author: Kozmyk
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 24, 2012, 11:13:57 pm
content: And what about those Hi-Fi speakers?Consider this.Speakers made for music listening pleasure have responses tailored to "flatter" the sound.Studio monitors on the other hand are made to give as little colouration as possible to the program material. They are usually much brighter than Hi-Fi and the Mid is more forward.While technically more accurate, they can be fatiguing if used for listening pleasure.An "audiophile " isn't necessarily after true fidelity. That would be a "fidelophile".While not to say there isn't a "King's new clothes" aspect to valve audiophile amps, one thing they DO do is to further "flatter" the music played through them. They can be pleasingly smooth.The weakness in valve fidelity isn't so much in the device itself as in the linearity, or lack of it, in the output transformers.Transformers with anything like a linear part to their curves don't come cheap.Myself, I never went that nuts. The best amp I ever had was a Quad 405-2/44, best speakers Tannoy Gold Lancasters. These days I have an old pair of Tannoy Mercury II speakers and a Memorex amp. Meh!

author: Pentium100
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 24, 2012, 11:28:58 pm
content: Quote from: Dave.S on March 24, 2012, 10:39:26 pmI didn't mean to say that a DSP sounded fake (what sound would that be?), just that it was fake. That is, I am a fan of old technology (surprise). Part of the fun listening to (more distorted) music on a tube tape deck (and not a good one, like Revox G36) is the fact that the thing uses tubes. You can emulate the sound using a DSP, but then it wouldn't be as fun, even though it would sound exactly the same.Or, say, watching the reels spin. You can add a display that would show a video of reels spinning, but it would not be as fun as "real" reels.Also, if I don't like the sound of my tube amp, I can tweak it to sound better (not necessarily more accurately). I can't tweak DSP, if it sounds bad to me that's it. Also, as I said before, a DSP is harder to repair.

author: FenderBender
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 25, 2012, 12:57:22 am
content: Well I'd say tubes have always been the leader in instrument amplification...so it's hard to get a rather hard-headed audience (in terms of equipment) to change to a "fake" solid state setup. But in reality, a well designed DSP based amp can have a lot of advantages. They should be more reliable if designed and built correctly. Sure, tubes are easy to service, but a well designed solid state amp will practically never need to be serviced. They would be lighter weight, consume less energy and could be cheaper if used with an efficient amp that requires less power.Is that not a good solution?Perhaps some more thinking will have to go into the design, but seems like a decent design to me.

author: Pentium100
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 25, 2012, 01:54:22 am
content: Quote from: FenderBender on March 25, 2012, 12:57:22 amNot only well designed, but also well manufactured - chips soldered on correctly (unlike the GPU in certain HP laptops), single or two layer PCB and so on. However, it seems that the manufacturers like when the devices fail soon after the warranty expires.with tubes (or trough hole solid state devices) you can at least repair it when it fails.QuoteIf I use the amplifier at home, connected to big speakers and mains power, the weight and power consumption is not a big issue. For battery powered portable devices it is a big issue, that's why there are no new portable tube devices.Also, how long can a modern EEPROM retain the data? I know flash memory (the kind that is used in SSDs) can only retain the data for up to 10 years, sometimes even less than that. I also know that some studio grade tape decks have problems with the ROM (I don't know which technology, probably EPROM) going bad (thankfully someone made a backup copy so it's possible to reprogram it).My opinion is that the devices should be designed/built as low-tech as possible. That way it will be easier to repair* and/or modify them and they will be more reliable. For example, device should not need software to function, unless that function is really impractical to implement without a CPU and software.*even if the device is well designed and well made, it can still need repair after misuse, for example, a drop.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 25, 2012, 02:04:41 am
content: Quote from: Pentium100 on March 25, 2012, 01:54:22 amActually that affects laptops from quite a few manufacturers and is not limited to GPUs, but also NB chips. It also has a wide range of causes, including thermal issues with poor quality chips from nVidia.

author: joedevola
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 25, 2012, 03:10:36 am
content: My perception of the issue is that there is actually two issues being discussed. The first is 'audiofoolery', the second is a discussion on vacuum tube technology. For audiofools, they want to believe the marketing BS and spend incredible amounts of cash on stuff that has little, if any, effect. A fool and his money are soon parted, and there are many people willing to assist them parting with that money. Some of those people build cables, power cords, tube amps or other items. There are others that know the limitations of vacuum tubes, but enjoy building stuff with them anyway. I think of it like guys who like tinkering with vintage cars. Sure modern cars handle better, get better milage, have more accessories, but for some people, they just are not as enjoyable to tinker with.If you want to see some real engineers tinkering with valve amps, check out diyadio.com in the valve section. There are lots of non-engineers there, but there are a notable bunch of EE guys who just like tinkering with this stuff.At the moment I am listening to a little single ended amp in my study that puts out about 2 watts playing in to some home made book shelf speakers. I have no doubt it has distortion figures 10s or 100s of times greater than any cheap chip amp, but it was fun to build, and looks kind of cool glowing in my office. My last audio project was a powered sub-woofer. Chip amp powered, op-amp active crossovers and Linwitz-transform circuit to EQ the speaker and box response. It was fun to build too.Audio foolery I think is the result of ignorance. The use of vacuum tube technology can be separated from the audiophile phenomenon. Use of different technology for its own sake is not necessarily stupidity if it is for a hobby for fun.

author: Pentium100
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 25, 2012, 05:06:48 am
content: while the expensive cables do not have any measurable effect on the sound, some tube amps sound different than transistor amps and the difference can be measured. What sounds "better" is subjective - some people may like the transistor amp for its low distortion and some people may like the tube amp for its 2nd order harmonics. Same thing with tapes and records - they sound a little bit different than digital and some people may prefer one over the other.Tubes are also more likely to survive an overload (ever managed to get a transistor red hot without letting the magic smoke out? I have seen red hot plates and internal sparks and the tube still works fine).As for cars, they are also similar - while modern cars use less fuel, they are also not as durable (my 1982 car still works in 2012, how many 2012 cars will still work in 2042?), expensive to repair (due to having too much electronics), get dents more easily, have worse visibility from the inside (the rear window of my car is as tall as the windshield = good visibility when going backwards), can have software bugs, have more points that can fail (due to having more complicated electronics). Oh, and they do not look as good - with manufacturers trying to reduce the drag coefficient as much as possible, all cars look pretty much the same.As for audio foolery - I think that this is a result of ignorance, but also of psychology. If you buy a $1000 cable, it will sound better to you. Or, when testing different devices or formats, it may seem different even if there isn't any difference (I had a discussion once with a guy who believed that FLAC sounded worse than the original file). If you try really hard to hear the difference you may actually be able to hear it. Video is better this way - you can pause, zoom or otherwise manipulate the image to find out if there is a difference, say, between video codec settings. You can't do that with audio.

author: T4P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 25, 2012, 08:29:06 am
content: Quote from: Pentium100 on March 25, 2012, 01:54:22 amYou are too stuck up with 30's tech . time to move on .You DO NOT need to repair a SS amp , if you do need , you bought the WRONG amp .If it's for fun to build an amp , i call you just a normal person , but , you seem to not like modern methods of stuff .All in all it's nice to stick up a non-functioning tube with glowing heaters / orange LED into something and there i have it , living my tube magic again .But again , tubes do look nice but i stayed away from them because of their insane prices , can't we really REALLY move on ?

author: Pentium100
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 25, 2012, 09:40:23 am
content: Quote from: Dave.S on March 25, 2012, 08:29:06 amSo, SS amp will never go bad? While transistors can work for really long times, it is still possible to damage the amp. Let's say I dropped it and the circuit board cracked. If the PCB has only one or two layers (no "invisible"layers), I can patch it up.QuoteI do not like paying money. So, if I buy a device, it has to last long time, unless that device is a "consumable", like a lightbulb. There is no practical way of making an incandescent (or fluorescent) lightbulb last really long and there is no way to make it repairable, so I accept that. I, however, expect that other devices will last really long or that I will be able to repair them if theydon't. I have a radio made in 1964, it still works, including the selenium rectifier. I can repair it if some capacitor or whatever fails. Especially devices that have no moving parts other than switches - those should last 20 or more years (switches can fail - I'll just replace them).So, yes, I do not like the modern "let's just stick a MCU in there" methods. I can't replace a programmable chip if it fails. Or a BGA. I can replace other chips or transistors (or tubes) though.I basically look for the oldest device that can do the function, still works and is affordable.QuoteI dislike fakes. If I want to use tubes then I use tubes, if I don't then I do not pretend that I do.QuoteIf you don't care what tube it is (it is just for show), look for Soviet tubes, like 6N2P - those are cheap. They also sound good to me, but that is just a happy coincidence.

author: T4P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 25, 2012, 10:16:46 am
content: I know transistors can fail , i'll just look for another similar one , i don't stick to an equipment for too long .To be fair i hate hoarding

author: David Aurora
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 25, 2012, 10:44:17 am
content: Quote from: Dave.S on March 25, 2012, 10:16:46 amMy favourite amp sitting right behind me right now has been with me for 14 years this year. I think I've re-tubed it 2 or 3 times, and I recently changed a trim pot on it. So that's maybe a couple hundred bucks all up for maintenance over that period. The thing has stood up to more shows than I can remember, 2 solo records, a record with my old band, countless recordings I've engineered for bands where they've borrowed it, and plenty of guest spots I've played for mates. Not to mention the rehearsals for all this stuff, and the rehearsals it's currently being used for in pre-production for my next record. I wouldn't call this hoarding- I'd call it a tool of absolutely amazing durability and qualityThe best part- for 14 years I've loved the sound of it, and consistently heard people praise the tone of it.Not bad for "30's tech"

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 25, 2012, 01:00:16 pm
content: The preference for the "tube sound" may have a modern counterpart too --- there was this article a few years ago:http://radar.oreilly.com/2009/03/the-sizzling-sound-of-music.htmland I've also talked to people who prefer the artifacts that MP3 compression introduces. They say it sounds "softer" and "fuller", although I think it just sounds more muffled. Maybe in 30-40 years from now when storage and bandwidth becomes cheap enough that all audio is in lossless formats by default, there will be a minority who prefer the "MP3 sound" like those today do with tubes.

author: quantumfall
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 25, 2012, 01:30:38 pm
content: 20 odd years ago I used to know a club entertainer who played bass guitar and sing. I would sometimes go to his "Gigs" with him and help lug his gear about.He had a big guitar amp / speaker combination very heavy that we used to treat with kid gloves as it was his "valve amp" and you only get that sound with valvesHe said.One day it went wrong I can't remember the problem now, but we opened it up to have a look inside, surprise, surprise there was a power MOSFET amplifier inside.It just shows its often in the mind, I'm sure valves do have a sound thats nice to some.He had probably been sold the system with a "Valve like sound" or something like that.You can't make it up thats exactly as it happened, he was totally shocked.The same fellow had his speaker monitors stripped down and rebuilt the cross overs at a lot of cost because of a funny buzz they made sometimes, it turned out to be a bad recording he was playing from a studio tape deck. He was adamant it was these new speakers.

author: T4P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 25, 2012, 02:11:22 pm
content: "It's all in the mind" Indeed.MOSFETs and JFETs have a certain in-linearity when operated obvious outside the linearity graph , they indeed sound like tubes ,but the reason tubes may sound better is due to needing a transformer , the transformer keeps the impedances the same .But because tube's have a output impedance so high , it bumps the mids . The speaker's impedance changes but the transformer's impedance just doesn't .Therefore there is a massive amount of impedance mismatch going on .Stick a output transformer on a SS output amp and see what i meanBut indeed SS is superior in all ways and people don't like it ,it has a far lower output impedance in the ranges of like 0.2ohms and a speaker naturally is a inductive motor of sorts , at higher frequencies the impedances can change quite significantly and thus the low frequencies have the same habit too . But because transistors have a low impedance output it can drive the output without much db differences in the different audio bands .Those audiofools and normal guitarists hate transistors for what they are EXCELLENT at and what they were designed to overcome tube's faults .Stick to 'yer tubes and let's see when tubes truly cease production and watch how much you are screwed , bloody audiofools .

author: David Aurora
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 25, 2012, 04:13:50 pm
content: Hahahahaha. Oh god...Must. Resist. Urge. To. Argue. On. Internet.Stick to whatever works for you dude. If transistor amps make you want to play, great, stick with those. But you might want to consider that sometimes when you think you've outsmarted everyone and they're all clueless about their own tone/equipment, you might actually be the one who the penny hasn't dropped for yet. I'm not saying the majority is ALWAYS right, but with the track record tube guitar amps have I think it's a bit of a stretch to think the majority is as wrong as you're claiming haha.$20,000 IEC cords for audiophiles? Sure, audiofool bullshit. Magic audiophile stones? Yep, I'm with you, bullshit. But on tube amps, pretty much the entire live and recorded history of guitar based music would beg to differ on your opinion of it being audiophile nonsense

author: tecman
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 26, 2012, 05:18:11 pm
content: "I know flash memory (the kind that is used in SSDs) can only retain the data for up to 10 years, sometimes even less than that."That's a new one. I guess all of my 2000 vintage flash based gear must be dead now ! The oft quoted "minimum 10 years" is stored over 100 deg C. At 20 deg C the data retention is around 1900 years and at 50 deg C it is 200 years. These are continuous at those temperatures (extrapolated data to be sure). So I would not worry about losing your data in flash.As most agree, tubes, in particular guitar amps, distort the signal. It may be a pleasant distortion, but still a distortion. So most people who like tube amp sound may like what they hear, but it is not faithful reproduction. So if you like what you hear, go with it. But don't argue that it is the "best" sound.paul

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 26, 2012, 06:24:10 pm
content: Not all electronically programmable non-volatile memory is "flash" memory. The particular kind of memory used in USB flash drives for example uses charge storage inside insulated cells (like little capacitors), and this charge can in principle leak away over time.I have also read about an expected 10 year lifetime. It is possible the stored data may survive longer than that, but I would not like to rely on decades of storage without some kind of backup.

author: tecman
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 26, 2012, 07:09:34 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on March 26, 2012, 06:24:10 pmIan:If you review papers on Flash (or most any other memory based on charge storage), the dat retention is given as ">10 years". If you read more on it, aside from manufacturing faults, temperature and radiation are the primary factors in the time. I have attached a page from a TI paper. The most discussed flash information is on "endurance", which is the write/erase effects. This area has received a lot of study lately due to SSDs and the potential life issues on those devices in applications. As a R/O prom for many consumer products, the flash will outlive the product many times over, unless you frequently store your device in the oven. Radiation is the other problem, which again in normal environments can be ignored. Sure there is a one in several billion chance that you might lose a bit due to a rare high energy charged particle, but again it is extremely rare. One area that is of more concern is airport x-rays and their effect on devices such as camera flash memory cards. Flash memory manufacturers have displayed bit errors after cumulative x-ray exposure. If you travel frequently, it has been recommended that you put memory cards in shielded containers.paul

author: saturation
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 26, 2012, 07:23:19 pm
content: Its even more odd that most recording studios don't use vaccuum tube equipment, except for the guitar amps purposefully for the kind of distortion it can create. Even if by preference they have some vaccum type equipment in the chain of recording, eventually the mixers, equalization, recording media, further postprocessing, etc., are done on on solid state state equipment [ and worse, done digitally ] so after all this processing it still sounds better on vacuum tube amplifiers? Not to mention most modern music use electronic instruments that generate sound using solid state technology and output via solid state amps.http://www.sadlerrecordingstudios.com/OurRates.html

author: Pentium100
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 26, 2012, 07:31:35 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on March 26, 2012, 06:24:10 pmI know, that's why I asked what is the expected lifetime of the kind of memory that it used to store firmware, giving an example that the memory used in USB flash drives (and SSDs) has a short life (some SATA SSDs are actually refreshing the data when they are powered on, just like DRAM, but slower).Quote from: tecman on March 26, 2012, 05:18:11 pmSure. If someone builds a tube amp that has almost no distortion, it would sound just like a transistor amp. The tube amps that sound different probably distort the signal more, but if it sounds better, then either the distortion is pleasant (and preferred to the unaltered sound) or the distortion, while higher is the kind that sounds better (I read somewhere that transistor amps produce more high order harmonics than tube amps and even though the THD is lower on a transistor amp, it may sound worse). In the end it's arguing about taste.Now, when I record something (copy a record or whatever) I set my tape deck up so that the recording sounds as close to the source as possible (without using expensive tapes). When I just listen to music, I may tweak the sound so it is more pleasant to me (even though it may be different from what the mastering engineer heard). For example, when playing a really compressed CD, I pipe the signal trough my expander (dbx 3bx-ds) to make it sound a bit better.

author: tecman
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 26, 2012, 07:50:59 pm
content: Quote from: saturation on March 26, 2012, 07:23:19 pmOne should consider that we use our modern solid state, digital systems to faithfully record the desired distortion of a tube guitar amp. We like the sound that the distortion produces in the case of a guitar amp, and we are able to accurately amplify, digitize, record and playback that desired sound with the modern technology.Great for the desired effect, but I still don't buy the line that tubes make the best sound as many tubifiles say.paul

author: Pentium100
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 26, 2012, 08:13:10 pm
content: Quote from: tecman on March 26, 2012, 07:50:59 pmAnd you don't need to. Listen to a tube amp, then to a transistor amp. Buy the one which sounds better to you. Some people prefer records and/or tapes to digital (even though they have more distortion, it's the "good" distortion), some prefer MP3 and some prefer uncompressed digital. Everyone should listen to the source that makes them happy.There is a lot of argument why tubes or transistors should be better (low vs high order distortion, soft clipping, tubes/transistors being more accurate, tubes allowing the designer to use few active elements, transformers messing up the sound and so on), but in reality what you like counts - so what if tubes have a lot of distortion or transistors have high order harmonics? If tubes sound better to you, listen to tubes. If transistors sound better to you, listen to transistors.

author: Sionyn
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 26, 2012, 08:36:27 pm
content: Marshall get around this using clipping diodes with a opamp quite a pleasing soundmuch like the infamous ibanez super distortion peddle there two examples of a favoured distortion sound

author: T4P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 26, 2012, 09:34:00 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on March 26, 2012, 06:24:10 pmOh yes , SSD drives under heavy usage will get their memory eaten away quick .It's because you cannot actually "delete" a bit from flash , but rather overwrite it , but there's a limit to the overwriting .But manufacturers give some slack for it to lose space . Like 20GB extra of 256GB .

author: T4P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 26, 2012, 09:36:52 pm
content: Quote from: Pentium100 on March 26, 2012, 08:13:10 pmStandard reply i got from diyaudio .If it isn't nice , TURN IT DOWN THEN ! Now if you don't like transistors ( which you do ) , GUITAR PEDALS/AMPS USE DIODE CLIPPING/JFET/MOSFET FOR A REASON !DAMMIT !

author: Deepak
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 26, 2012, 09:54:20 pm
content: Quote from: ejeffrey on March 24, 2012, 12:20:27 amObviously you've never met a sound engineer

author: ivan747
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 27, 2012, 01:48:57 am
content: Quote from: Hideki on March 23, 2012, 03:28:56 pmEXACTLY

author: ivan747
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 27, 2012, 01:54:21 am
content: Quote from: Randall W. Lott on March 23, 2012, 06:28:23 pmDo you know what overdrive pedal is he using for that song? Tube haters are gonna hate me

author: Randall W. Lott
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 27, 2012, 08:50:25 pm
content: Quote from: ivan747 on March 27, 2012, 01:54:21 amHaha! Here is my guess:Amplifiers - 2 Mesa Boogie Mark IVs in stereoPedals - Kealy Modified Ibanez Tube Screamer and Zakk Wylde OverdriveI'm not sure If he's using these pedals in this video. He switches via a MIDI footswitch, which rewires his rack to suit the sounds he wants.He often uses just the amplifier's pre-amp gain stage for lead sounds.

author: T4P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2012, 02:28:06 am
content: You tube lovers are STUPID .The pedals the guitarists use are mostly SS and yet a tube amp ?

author: David Aurora
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2012, 03:27:06 am
content: Quote from: Dave.S on March 28, 2012, 02:28:06 amYes, Tube Screamers are solid state. I myself use a transistor boost I designed in front of my amps too sometimes. It's a quick and easy way to hit the amp harder when needed. These pedals aren't necessarily always in the signal chain, but I'll give you something to get worked up about by mentioning the first pedal in my chain is a solid state buffer which is always onI must admit, I can't quite figure out if you're trolling or just completely (and unknowingly) clueless about guitar rigs haha. Have you ever even used a tube amp? Do you understand even a little bit about gain staging, saturation, headroom and so on? Do you understand that pedals aren't usually where the core of your tone comes on, they're just a little tonal decoration? Do you understand that you're treating transistors the same way militant audiophiles treat tubes, and the rest of us (yes, even tube amp fans) are actually closer to the middle here and just use whatever sounds the best? I'm guessing not haha. Carry on!

author: oddeohead
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2012, 03:29:10 am
content: Stupid????Wow! Actually to correct you most guitar players use pedals for an effect such as a phase shifter, tremolo, delay etc. I once again have to say "If you don't play you will NEVER get it".That being said the distortion character derived from the tube preamps in most high gain amps are intended! That is why there are up to 6 cascaded stages fo a "lead" tone.I work strictly in the MI world and would beg to differ on your opinion and is just only that an opinion. Would't it be great if everyone thought so one dimensional? Would kind of sound like this...."Hi Bill. Have my met my friend Bill and his son Bill? His sister Mary is going to my wife Mary's party. COME ON MAN! You have to be kidding? I work with hundreds of musicians a year and yes every single one has their own preference in the gear they use. A musician's tone is part of their inspiration. Wether it be a cheap Pignose amp or a complex switching rig used by John Petrucci (the video presented earlier) it is all about the tone and feel of the amp. Unless you can put up a video of you playing something you wrote on an instrument and explain how the sound feels under your fingertips you are just blowing smoke out of your arse!I appreciate all technologies! They all serve a purpose and let's face it....the Beatles were not heard back in the day of PA infancy until high powered solid state sound reinforcement came along.I love the sound of tube preamps and power amps but dislike tube driven reverb or analog dealy. I would choose a Lexicon and TC Electronics rack mount effects processor for that end.I have played music for 30 years and have been doing electronics since I was a kid until I went to University for EE and stayed playing the whole time.I am going to highly doubt that you would be able to satisfy engineering a player an amplifier that he or she would find musical! You may be brilliant in electronics but if you don't play.....you will NEVER get it!The guys in this forum that truely know what I am talking about get it as well.So that was long winded yes but to make a comment like that is idiotic.Oh by the way Randall. Good call on Petrucci's rig. He still does favour the Mark 2 heads and has started to use the AXE FX strictly for the time based effects. You a fan? Best album was Images and Words IMO. He was using the Mesa Triaxis live back then and just had one on the bench.Speaking of The Mesa Triaxis...you should see all the "STUPID" people who use those! Go to Google and have a gander of the gut shot of one!Now quit your bickering and go watch whatever you want on TV! We won't call you stupid if you watch something we don't like nor understand though...we promise!

author: Randall W. Lott
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2012, 06:01:17 am
content: Quote from: oddeohead on March 28, 2012, 03:29:10 amI'm a HUGE Dream Theater fan. Have you seen his current rig with his Mark V amps?There are so many good players, but Petrucci has mastered his own voice in my opinion.Another example is Guthrie Govan. You literally can't play like him with a solid state amplifier. He uses the volume control on his guitar to dial in different tones, not to change the loudness.He's the kind of guy that plugs his guitar right in and changes everything with his guitar and hands. That's the classic use of tube amps. Petrucci is definitely a modern user.Guthrie showing how he uses the volume control to change the "beef":

author: ronwoch
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2012, 07:01:24 am
content: Wow. The opening of this thread would be considered pure trolling on most forums. If you don't like tubes, don't use them! You can argue all day long that the mathematics prove transistors to be better. If so, why do so many people PREFER the sound of a tube amp in music? My personal amp is actually a hybrid, a tube pre- with a solid state power section. I just happened to like the way it sounded. I've heard all solid state and all tube amps that sound equally as good. But at the end of the day, who are YOU to tell me what I should use or not? Most people consider fountain pens to be obsolete. Then why do so many people choose to write with them to this day? Because they like the way they write. Why do I use a safety razor my father bought in the 1970's? Because my adjustable Gillette STILL gives me a closer shave than ANYTHING on the market. Why do barbers still give straight razor shaves? Same reason! (I use a safety cause my hands shake) Point is, there is a LOT of 'obsolete' tech out there that MANY people still prefer to use. "Better" is subjective and based on the desired result. If you want the sound that a tube amp produces, then what 'better' to make that sound than a tube amp? Same with solid state. Different tools for a different outcome. I collect computers from the early days of the home computer. Most people say they are 'boat anchors'. Sure, if you want to play world of warcrap on them. But I argue that they also put you much closer to the 'guts' of the machine, and will teach you about HOW computers work, in a much easier manner than modern 'appliance' computing. The computers of the 1970's and 80's were meant to teach you how to operate them, usually came loaded with some flavor of basic, and generally taught you how to program, at least the basics of how a program works. Writing demos in assembly was and to this day still is a very large usage of these machines. None of your iphones, android, tablets, ereaders, etc, would exist without much of the innovation and inspiration of these machines. So tell me, should they all be scrapped just because they are unable to check twitter? Oh, wait, people have hacked and modded commodore's and their contemporaries to connect to ethernet, or to use as terminals through a Linux box, and ARE able to check their email, twitter, facebook, etc. with them. Perhaps more of a 'just cause I can' exercise than strictly utilitarian, but still. THAT is the kind of ingenuity that has built our current technological age. Oh, and let's not forget that NONE of THAT would be possible without the vacuum tube. So- I say again, if you don't like them, DON'T BLOODY USE THEM! But please, for the love of whatever higher power you do or do not believe in,STOPtrying to dictate what others should use, or like, or not use.If we discard all that is 'old' and 'obsolete' then someday, you too will find yourself on the trash heap./rant.

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2012, 07:24:11 am
content: JustDO NOT FEED THE TROLL, the thread starter is well known wreaked havoc around this forum with crap and gibberish posts like these fine examplesHERE,HEREorHERE.... damn, its just too many to list.This thread is created to stir up around and obviously for flame baiting for his own excitement from the beginning..

author: ronwoch
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2012, 07:30:07 am
content: Point taken sir.

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2012, 11:44:54 am
content: Although troll or not, he did manage to squeeze out some good points from both sides

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 28, 2012, 11:53:19 am
content: As most should well know freedom of speech is respected as much as possible around here. You are free to discuss whatever you like providing you don't decend into insulting each other and making non objective statements. If you really don't think the topic is worthy of discussion or that it is for trolling then don't feed it. Just leave it to sink below the other many topics that may interest you instead.

author: Excavatoree
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2012, 01:38:57 pm
content: Allow me to add an analogy:Modern, computerized, fuel injected engines with electronic ignition are better in every measurable way than an engine with a carburetor and points ignition. Yet, many people still restore and drive the older vehicles, and many build new project cars with the old technology.I could go to a car forum and make a very similar post to this one - insulting those who prefer the older technology.Even if there is no advantage to the older technology, it's still personal preference and not "wrong."In the case of tubes vs transistors, the sound difference can be measured. In the case of automobiles, you can maintain a points/carburetor car without a voltmeter or computer interface. Heck, a mechanically governed diesel engine can function with no electricity whatsoever! No wires! That is an advantage."Better" is in the mind of the beholder, or, as Dave says "Horses for courses."

author: G7PSK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2012, 03:00:56 pm
content: You cant beat the sound of a Sulzer V12 pulling hard with straight out exhaust, Unless its an English Electric Deltic. Also runs when under water as long as air intake is above water.

author: PStevenson
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2012, 03:02:52 pm
content: I've got a fair few guitar amplifiers - all tube, all transistor, all DSP and mixedthey all sound different and I like how they all sound for the different guitar styles I doI'd also like to state for the record - I love my DSP amps and Transistor amps more so than the Valve ones for versitilityit's fair enough to say they are shit at replicating sound faithfully because they are but in guitar amplifiers just replicating the input signal is not a specification of anyone playing guitar these dayswhich is why using valves in guitar amplifiers just doesn't fall in the category of audiophoolerya few reasons for this are that valve amps aren't actually anymore expensive than DSP or Transistor amps, they obviously can be but then a high end DSP system can cost a whole lot too.people can say that you can code Valve response and characteristics in DSP and yes I agree that you can do but valves change over their lifetime and do other weird shit which some people like.I personally think valves in "HIFIs" are pointless but again it's preference and I'm not that bothered what people like as long as they don't try to tell me that an inferior thing is superior, or something is superior when it can't be (which also costs 6000 times as much) which is what you get in audiophooleryI just don't think that valves in this instance can really be classed as a pet peeve because it's down to preference, you're free to dislike the sound of course and vocalize as such.however when you call someone stupid for liking valve amps when they use a pedal prior to the amplifierwell the 2 work well together obviously they aren't mutually exclusiveI somewhat suspect you are just trying to get people into an argument so you need to address why you feel the need to do that on the internet

author: T4P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2012, 03:30:13 pm
content: Quote from: BravoV on March 28, 2012, 07:24:11 amyou should know by now my intention of talking about the fan .. it was part of a gag .

author: Pentium100
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2012, 11:31:12 pm
content: Quote from: Excavatoree on March 28, 2012, 01:38:57 pmOr, in the case of my car, you can diagnose and repair electrical problems without special tools. That is, it is possible to do it with a multimeter and maybe a scope (for trickier problems), but these are the tools that are useful not only for repairing cars. What I don't need is a special computer interface or software.Also, the fan speed "controller" is a couple of big resistors, no special microcontroller etc. And while the resistors can burn out, they are most likely cheaper than the electronic speed controller in newer cars.Quote from: PStevenson on March 28, 2012, 03:02:52 pmI agree with the comparison. The $1000/m cables do not have any measurable effect over, say, $100/m cables so it's audiophoolery to say that they do. On the other hand, tubes do have an effect. Some may like it, some may not. But, say, do you use an equalizer or a compressor/expander during playback? If so, you intentionally alter the signal in such a way so the result sounds better to you (some people like to turn up the high frequencies for example). So why using tubes to do that would be bad? A tube amp, even if it sounded exactly like a transistor amp, would be more fun to me, and in turn, I would be happier using it than the transistor amp that sounds exactly the same.

author: PStevenson
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2012, 08:36:16 am
content: Quote from: Pentium100 on March 28, 2012, 11:31:12 pmsorry I forgot to clarify my point - if someone likes the sound of valve driven amplifiers for their records that's great cause as you said it's a form of processing these days (for want of a better description) which was done on purpose, what annoys me is those people who think (and argue to death) that the record was meant to be heard that way and it's usually because they spent $10,000 on a "audiophile quality" hifi complete with its little array of valves.as far as I'm concerned whatever someone actually likes the sound of is great by me I just hate it when they try to make out it's technically better because being an unfaithful amplified replication of the input signal just isn't.another annoyance is when people call transistor amps "sterile sounding" well no, if it sounds sterile then the fault lies at the audio engineer not the bloody transistors

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2012, 12:40:11 pm
content: Quote from: Pentium100 on March 28, 2012, 11:31:12 pmOr they do have a measureable (by sensitive instruments) effect, but it's insignificant at audio frequencies and with the "instrument" being human ears. I've seen super expensive speaker cables that use Litz wire and other techniques more suited to RF design, and they probably do have measureably different electrical characteristics, but it doesn't matter for audio frequencies.

author: oddeohead
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2012, 10:47:36 pm
content: Hey Randall. Huge DT fan myself. Have seen them quite a few times but gravitate still towards the Images and Words days. I just modified a Triaxis to eliminate most of the inherint 60 cycle hum they have in the audio path. I have thousands of gut shots from just about anything related to MI gear. Including the new Mark V which I have done at least a dozen or so. I also have some video of alot of the repairs and modifications as well if you or anyone else would be interested in seeing the inside of this kind of gear! Once again when it comes to the gear musicians use the intent is really not for pure reproduction as it is usually just amplifying the sound of a magnetic pickup but for a specific "TONE" and feel. There are a few companies who have designed amplifiers that are more "EXACT" but usually reserved for the Bass world. The original Ampeg SVT would be an example utilizing a complex phase invert/driver section with trims to reduce distortion and insure symmetry. It produces slightly over 300Watts RMS utilizing 6X6550 Power tubes. They are an absolute pig to haul onto the bench and have a split power/output section and preamp connected via multi pin connectors which makes them very awkward to test. Anyways let me know if you want to see some MI gear teardowns and I can get some pics up!

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2012, 12:34:37 am
content: When valves(tubes) were the only game in town,Engineers sweated blood to make the amplifiers they made as transparent as they could.They did not want any "artifacts"affecting this goal.I do think that some of the specs of modern equipment are so far out of the range that the human ear can discern as to be a waste of time.

author: oddeohead
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2012, 12:51:59 am
content: Back in the day perhaps. But if you look at any modern high gain amplifier with and overdrive channel the goal is to achieve a dirty sound.

author: Deepak
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2012, 01:11:35 am
content: Quote from: vk6zgo on March 30, 2012, 12:34:37 amSince about a decade into the instrument amplifier's life musicians have sweated blood to undo the engineers' hard work. The engineers quickly caught on.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2012, 02:12:58 am
content: But then,I spent most of my working life in Broadcasting,where within the limitations of the medium,the aim was for the amplifiers to not contribute any artifacts to the final sound.Inbuilt distortion in musical instrument amplifiers would be classed as a "Special Effect",& ideally should be controllable by the musician,rather than just use a lousy amplifier!

author: Deepak
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2012, 06:58:49 am
content: Quote from: vk6zgo on March 30, 2012, 02:12:58 amI think that's what the knobs are for

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2012, 12:08:38 pm
content: If it doesn't go to 11 it's not a real amp.

author: T4P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2012, 04:17:33 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on March 30, 2012, 12:08:38 pmIt needs to go to 11 , to be a guitar amp .

author: mzacharias
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 05, 2012, 09:15:02 pm
content: Been working on audio for most of 40 years. Tubes are much better suited for professional work on stage not just because they clip nice but also because they recover from an overload without failing totally, which often cannot be said of solid state. You can make a solid state amp reproduce a tube-sound recording, but it just cannot clip like a tube for real.I MUCH prefer solid state amps for music reproduction - they are cleaner - but they need to be run within their limits. The boutique tube amps sold to audiophools are simply an overpriced and generally under-performing waste of time and money.Maybe P.T. Barnum had it right. Maybe it is a crime not to separate a fool from his money.