Battle between electrical and mechanical engineers - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Strube09
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2010, 03:56:37 pm
content: Okay, so I need to rant for a second. I am currently relaying out a PCB for the third time.... but go figure it has work perfectly from the very first schematic and layout. However due to poor mechanical design there is no easy way to assembly the end product. So the fix? Tell the EE he has to redo the PCB layout to fit in a new area.... Oh wait now that that layout is done we realized that it won't work there either so.... do it again! WOOHOOOOn top of that I am consistently fighting for real estate in the final product. At least at my place of work it seems as though mechanical guys get to take up as much space for poor design and the electricals take a back seat ride until the end and were they try to just jam it in there.So needless to say I have to sacrifice good layout practices in order to make everything fit in the smallest space possible.I know that the real estate battle for electronics is nothing new, but I just wish people could think of the whole product before they just tell me where to through my pcb... guess what, the electronics is what makes the products function... consult us for space requirements before the mechanical design phase is done.Sorry of my rambling just a point of frustration at least at my work.GRRRStrube

author: Kiriakos-GR
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2010, 04:35:56 pm
content: I am on your side , but all the participants in large projects have an back seat ride.Only simple designs , can become as " one man show "

author: ChrisGammell
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 09, 2010, 04:42:27 pm
content: I would also guess wherever you're working Strube produces a product that is "mechanically centered". I have heard this before from other people that if the customer cares more about the mechanics of the thing (regardless of if the electronics are making it work), then the mechanical engineer will win decisions in product design. If the customer only cares about the performance based on the electronics, the mechanical guys get jerked around. Just what I've seen and heard though.

author: TopherTheME
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2010, 04:59:25 pm
content: This is very common and goes both ways. I've seen EE's push ME's around ME's pushing EE's around. It usually just depends on weather the manager/boss/director is a EE or ME.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2010, 05:05:44 pm
content: That's normally what happens in my experience: the electronic engineer has to fit his design around the mechanical.This isn't the right way of doing it. If shouldn't be mechanical vs electrical but a group of engineers working together as a team. Also don't forget that what you're doing is at the boundary between electrical and mechanical so you're going to have this kind of problem. Who designs the circuit? Do you do that as well? Who selects the physical components? In some organisations different people are given very specific roles: for example if you're designing PCBs that's all you'll ever do. This isn't the right way of doing it in my point of view.

author: Sam
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: August 09, 2010, 05:45:42 pm
content: Yep; seen quite a bit of ME vs EE in the area of engineering I work in (Not design but the other end; Vibration and Temperature Testing).I always remember having a telephone call with a EE from a company we were doing some testing for, explaining some electrical noise problems we were having with a low level vibration test. Yet he kept saying 'will a ME understand that?' as an ME would have to sign of the testing. With this particular customer it was like; ME and EE will not cross or mix at any point so a ME won't understand it. Yet I have had software guys get there head around vibration testing.In my opinion there will always be that ME vs EE, but as the last post states it should be a team.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 09, 2010, 06:54:40 pm
content: Quote from: TopherTheME on August 09, 2010, 04:59:25 pmThis is valid in all fields of work, i work as a quality inspector but the MD is an asshole that wants to save money all the time and the works manager seems to get a cut in my opinion of profits so is always driving too close to the edge, the consequence ? they only remember they have a QC department when the shit hits the fan or a customer is coming in. Otherwise any ol crap will do, bodge it hack it just to get it out the door.I would think that in most products the mechanics is what the customer sees so that is what the company cares about. Any decent engineer should be able to understand the basis of another's area of specification, if he/she does not or cannot "get his/her head round it" they are not right for the job. I am constantly being treated like and idiot at work by a few people that seem to think simple aspects of their area of specification is rocket science and often I know what they are on about before they even begin a big headed long winded explanation showing they can't even explain themselves properly on something they are supposed to be experts at. If you a true engineer on a multi discipline project you would know about the other areas on it or at least show some interest in the specs so you can all work together. Unfortunately today in the workplace with few real jobs left everyone is fighting to cut each others throats and get above them or look better. People don't want to collaborate to make a great product the company can market but show they are better than the other departments. Really it's not wonder marketing guys get paid more than some engineers, they single handedly have to convince the customer to buy a product that was poorly engineered due to the project engineers fighting each other.

author: Rhythmtech
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2010, 07:01:25 pm
content: I have generally found that EE's are predisposed to explaining things in technical terms ME worked hard to forget after taking Circuits I. ME's often felt stupid then and feel more ignorant now that they've forgotten it all. EE's have communication protocol dysfunctional syndrome when communicating with anyone who doesn't get binary feedback - eg: This is awesome - two thumbs up! / This is complete crap, garbage roughly being Dave's only two descriptions of things, we are often "low compromise" type people.Although not completely successful, I have found that a measure of social skill or engineering, not relying on pure reasoning and the laws of how things "should be" for argument allow one to finesse one's way into better designs.Often working together is a misnomer in engineering teams, so you can't assume anyone is considering your opinion or design requirements into their own design. Give and take sucks, but it's better than just giving.So what do you do -1. Act interested in their design2. Commend their skills without letting it be flattery3. Offer a critique from an electrical point of view as a challenge for a better design4. Let them know that you are considering their design while making yours5. Drink beer with them to form a relationship that transcends you just being the "Electronics Guy"6. Concede the importance of both your roles in the productIf you do run into a circumstance where you are doing unnecessary work don't whine and bitch about it, approach the team lead and explain your frustration and offer to help the ME's get it right (making a challenge out of it). More than likely someone in the mechanical dept is being goaded by a marketing dim wit and needs some help telling the marketing guy where to put his glossy useless ideas.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2010, 07:05:06 pm
content: do more on communication and team"ing" skill.but, the matter of fact is... "naturally" you have to comply with mechanical spec first, then electronics spec is layed out based on that.it happened without you knowing it, esp for simple project or hobby. think about it. well, unless your project did not have any specific shape, just a plain "dumb" PCB !!!

author: Neilm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2010, 07:20:13 pm
content: Where I work the people who do the mechanical design are also the people who layout the PCB. (well - where to put the bits on the board is a mechanical issue isn't it?). It is a hangover from when they were laid out with tape. This does mean I have to give them very detailed instructions on what bits of circuit belong with each other, where on the board various bits should go. Mind you, this is no less than I would do if it was being laid out by an external company.The only disadvantage - try explaining to a mechanical engineer why a SMPS should be laid out as per the supplied drawing rather than the way he has done.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 09, 2010, 07:21:32 pm
content: For point 1 you don't act interested you should genuinely be interested or how can you design something that will work in the bigger pictureFor point 3 if they are making it mechanically so that there is no feasible electronic solution they are wankers but then diplomacy was never my strong pointFor point 4 yea you might have to make a point of that although you all need to do it in order to get the job done as fast and efficiently as possibleFor point 5 yea great idea, i started playing football with my co workers, now a few hate and respect me more because they put me in the other team thinking i was rubbish but being rubbish at football but intelligent and aware of my abilities i out smart them oftenpoint 6 well that is a basic concept the whole design works on, I'm designing something for a friend that has to fit in a certain box of a certain size and thermal spec (poor) and I'm working all around the physical side of things with the electronics to make the final product work, in principal i did it ages ago, but to make the mechanics and electronics work together I had to make a further 2 attempts to come up with a solution

author: Rhythmtech
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2010, 08:43:56 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on August 09, 2010, 07:21:32 pmMeant more like, when a woman you like enters the room you act interested to show interest.QuoteIt would be to show interest in the design without stepping all over their toes and establish one self as a source of knowledge to leverage when they encounter conundrums they do not have perspective to design for that you might. Presumably, they have the job because they are competent enough, if not then you won't have to worry about them for long anyways...QuoteI am still surprised by how many people are completely unaware of anything but their Maslow's hammer. Agreed, if you are on a decent team then you would have a copacetic understanding of this already.QuoteWell, if you're ever my way lets have a beer!QuoteMy feeling exactly, if you can't bring it back to hey this is about making a finished product and not about the finer points of plastic molding, then you've lost it all anyways.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 09, 2010, 08:51:45 pm
content: Quote from: Rhythmtech on August 09, 2010, 08:43:56 pmbut i bet your on the other side of the world from me

author: Rhythmtech
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2010, 09:13:50 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on August 09, 2010, 08:51:45 pmofw...

author: djsb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2010, 09:51:13 pm
content: Watch some of Altiums video's. I reckon they've got the right idea of how things should be designed (in an ideal world).

author: PetrosA
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2010, 01:32:41 am
content: I had to chuckle when I read this thread. It's exactly the same in the electrical world, unless you're working on a very large project where every subsystem has been planned out in CAD. Plumbers and HVAC crews get priority, then we come in and have to run wires or pipes around whatever they leave behind, not to mention when someone decides to fill a section of wall or ceiling with a steel beam right where we need to run a wire

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2010, 02:13:55 am
content: Quote from: PetrosA on August 10, 2010, 01:32:41 amsure you can ask civil eng. people to bore the hole through it if they can approve that. last time where i was working, the priority goes like this:architect->civil->m&e where we were in m&e working at the same time (collaborate together) during design and installation and we have to get design approval from architect and civil section. if they dont approve, we need to re-route to different place.

author: DJPhil
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2010, 05:28:12 am
content: I can't say I have any experience with this problem, but I know how I'd try to handle it the first time I ran into it.I'd propose a truce across the engineering departments, and unite against the MBAs and the ad wizards when they get insane. I'd hope against hope it'd be a bit tougher to ignore common sense when the entire technical staff stands against bad ideas.I'm sure that's naive, but I'd try. The temptation of success would be to high.

author: ngkee22
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2010, 10:25:14 pm
content: Figured I would add my comment too.I usually work on vehicles to route harnesses. There have been many occasions where the mechanical group moved something along the frame and forgot to mention it to me. Then my design no longer fits. From my experience so far, it seems electrical design on a lot of things is at the mercy of the mechanical group. I have even had some refuse to give me a routing path along an extremely hot exhaust. They just told me no to let it catch on fire. Kind of hard to do without the proper safety area.

author: Steven8098
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: August 12, 2010, 07:38:12 am
content: i don't know