Sun tax - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: vad
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2024, 04:51:55 am
content: So it looks like Aussie solar users will soon have to pay utility companies if they send too much energy back into the grid during peak hours. I assume by peak hours, they mean when the sun is shining and people are at work. What would be your strategy for minimizing the electrical bill? Getting a Tesla Powerwall? Running the A/C in an empty house? A kill switch? Anything else?https://9now.nine.com.au/a-current-affair/sun-tax-set-to-charge-solar-panel-owners-who-send-excess-electricity-back-to-the-grid-at-peak-times/8bb2e8e6-feb8-4620-b1aa-806539e252de

author: aeberbach
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2024, 05:03:19 am
content: Your source is the worst tabloid garbage there is, the TV equivalent of National Enquirer. Don't believe any of it.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2024, 07:53:16 am
content: Quote from: aeberbach on June 12, 2024, 05:03:19 amPlease point us to the truth on this matter as it's also been on NZ news today.

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2024, 08:02:44 am
content: I wonder how long before an average sized house can have enough batteries and solar to be totally off-grid.(with all the better /cheaper /more efficient solar panels and batteries coming down the line)I imagine that is what the power companies will be worried about long term.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2024, 08:06:12 am
content: From what I've read and gotten, the "sun tax" has been decided a few years ago and was meant to be active in 2025. Probably the reason why the news is reappearing as of late, as it should be coming in just a few months.Apparently, the idea was to tax whatever electricity owners of solar panels reinject into the grid, at "peak" hours - allegedly because it would "congest" the grid. Which is understandable, but sort of ironic.I don't know more details or whether it's actually going to be applied and how.Still, that raises the valid point yet again of the storage of energy from solar panels.

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2024, 08:10:52 am
content: I guess it makes sense if there is a surplus of electricity and many 1000's of solar grid-tie systems keep turning on/off based on the sun. Might be kind of annoying to deal with unless the power company had control over everyone's inverters and could turn them off on demand which they cannot atm.But sadly, getting money from people is always going to be the go-to method to solve a problem, rather than a proper solution.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2024, 08:13:06 am
content: Quote from: Psi on June 12, 2024, 08:02:44 amYeah but in Oz (parts of) subsidies were given and a guaranteed grid by back price to ease the load on the network. Was popular but with a catch that the original installation could not be added to without the unit price paid being reduced.Our Lad in Perth uprated from 10 to 21 panels but got less/unit but the additional power generated benefitted appliances that could be put on timer to only operate during the day.Evening consumption was kept low so any credits they gained would cover evening use for them to end up ~neutral power cost.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2024, 08:16:40 am
content: Quote from: vad on June 12, 2024, 04:51:55 amThe Aussies are not the only ones getting shafted. From the end of this month I'll be paying 250 euro/year for supplying the grid with electricity from my solar panels. The amount is based on amount of energy I supply. Every energy supplier in the NL has or is going to charge solar panel owners for supplying energy.I have been looking at batteries but realistically I would need a 3000kWh (yes, three thousand kWh) battery or storage system to avoid the charge and be (mostly) self-supplying where it comes to electrity. A 5kWh to 10kWh battery would smear out usage over a day but with the solar panels able to deliver 100kWh+ in a sunny week, it is clear that a small battery is not going to do much in terms of avoiding the tax.In the NL there is also the system of getting a kWh for a kWh as long as you consume more than you produce. In my mind this should be an incentive for the power companies to invest in storage. But that isn't happening at a large enough scale. So I agree with Psi about getting money from people is not the solution.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2024, 08:19:27 am
content: You pay for supplying energy. Isn't that a good deal?

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2024, 08:24:32 am
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on June 12, 2024, 08:19:27 amOnly the Power & Line Co's would think and dumb Gubbermints let them get away with it.

author: Xena E
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2024, 08:34:48 am
content: Anecdotal, but an SA acquaintance of mine says that there was a move by Escom to be paid a levy from people who just self generate!If true what are they going to be paid for? Because they own all the electrons ?Nothing to do with feed in, just money grabbing from people trying to help themselves who are pissed off with load shedding because the company is being run into the ground by mismanagement, and corruption.In the UK wind farm operators arepaidfor turning off generation at times of low demand. Undesirable but an unfortunate fact that renewable are the easiest generation facilities to shut down and start up on demand.Pumped storage reservoirs are the best current technology to deal with this but new ones in a crowded island like the UK take up too much real estate: individual home storage is doable if there's enough capacity to generate as may be the case in Australia,Here I'm about able to be off grid 7 months of the year with PV/ battery, which is a problem now during the other five months as the utility companies keep jacking the daily meter charge.I'd get more panels but I'm maxed out with size as it is.

author: aeberbach
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2024, 08:42:40 am
content: Quote from: tautech on June 12, 2024, 07:53:16 amI think those claiming a Sun Tax would be the ones needing to provide some kind of source, but that's not what they do, it's about selling advertising on the show not verifiable facts.Further reading ("https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-03-25/australians-with-rooftop-solar-charged-export-electricity-grid/100026336) says it is a proposal by the Australian Energy Market Commission. A fair way from the "soon, a solar switch will be flicked and it'll be the power punters who pay" garbage of Current Affair.ABC quote: "The AEMC said the recommendation was not designed to create mandatory export charges, but to create more flexibility and pricing options."also: "Among a raft of changes put forward in a draft determination released on Thursday is the removal of a prohibition on charging for energy exported into the grid."AEMC Chief Executive Ben Barr: "The consultation with the poles and wires businesses and the Australian Energy Regulator signing off on any changes will take over 12  to two years,"So, PV owners TO PAY!? Greedy greenies get SOLAR SLUGGED?! No. Nothing will change for some time and many things could happen.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 12, 2024, 09:00:13 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on June 12, 2024, 08:16:40 amIn Latvia there was the same incentive implemented when electricity price gone up to insane level in 2022. A LOT of people installed solar panels at an overprice due to high demand. Then year an a half later it turned out they duped everyone, so now you get only a 1/4 reimbursement at best for electricity you supplied to the grid.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 12, 2024, 09:12:31 am
content: Quote from: aeberbach on June 12, 2024, 08:42:40 amIt's not a Wikipedia. Not to say what effing source should they claim if it's the law, how often you see news providing a link to the law rather than just discussing it? Also you clearly don't bother to google before claiming BS.https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/article/2024/may/17/energy-companies-charging-nsw-solar-panel-owners-for-exporting-power-criticised-by-lobby-group

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2024, 09:13:27 am
content: Not sure how long it lasts but due to Octopus Energy participating in the ESO program I've read stories of people doing insane grid arbitrage and profiting as a result using their home batteries. Buying electricity at 7.5p/kWh off peak and selling it at peak time at £4/kWh. Even with a 10kWh battery if you manage that more than 10 times a year you'll pay back the battery very quickly indeed, especially with the other energy shifting benefits that can come as a result. Sadly I do not yet have a home battery so cannot benefit...

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2024, 09:20:06 am
content: If the issue is too much export, surely the solution would be to incentivise users to allow remote control of export limits by the utility.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 12, 2024, 09:23:14 am
content: Quote from: tom66 on June 12, 2024, 09:13:27 amAnd frankly there is nothing bad about it. They basically act as a battery storage power station supporting the grid at peak hours.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2024, 09:23:58 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on June 12, 2024, 08:16:40 amPresumably that's offset against the amount you get paid for the export, otherwise you'd just stop exporting. Seems it would be fairer to just adjust what they pay per kWh based on demand, though that might mean upgrades to their metering systems.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2024, 09:24:55 am
content: Quote from: wraper on June 12, 2024, 09:23:14 amAnd cheaper in the short term than building more generation capacity

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2024, 09:32:37 am
content: Quote from: wraper on June 12, 2024, 09:00:13 amYes. And I also installed solar panels early 2023 but I kept an eye on the costs. I got some quotes like 7000 euro for 12 panels with a projected break even point after 6 years based on 40ct/kWh. That didn't make sense to me because electricity prices wouldn't stay high forever. So I went for a DIY solution costing half. At this moment electricity prices are back to 22ct/kWh over here as I had predicted. Together with the 'sun tax' my panels save me around 700 euro this year (2024) instead of 1200 euro last year (2023). My break even point went from 2.5 years to 4.5 years. The people who paid full price to an installer, are looking at a break even close to 10 years though.

author: hans
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2024, 09:36:20 am
content: But.. it's also opportunism to the max. Buy low sell high is typical stock trader/entrepreneurial mindset.This is also an issue on multiple levels. Generation of electricity does not have to a problem per se: we just turn up our gas generators, although those are expensive to run.Another issue is grid capacity, especially on a mid to local level when we have introduced many higher loads with heat pumps, more airconditioners, charging electric cars and induction stoves. Then we also add some reverse electricity flow with micro solar panel or wind generation, add some batteries that do whatever their owner sees fit, and we have created a far more chaotic system than just the large supplier => variable demand electricity system we used to have. Note that many electricity systems are only fused for that last scenario, not for the phantom currents that are supplied between neighbouring houses that run through the local wiring. Theoretically you could have 0A transformer current while still overloading cables.I'm not surprised at all that a financial curtailment incentive is now introduced at more places.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2024, 09:36:55 am
content: Quote from: tom66 on June 12, 2024, 09:13:27 amI would be cautious about that. If a lot of people start doing that, prices will level out and you'll also be competing with large scale battery storage somewhere in the near future. You'll need to have a good insight and make projections (scenarios) to see how much you can gain from having a battery and use it that way.

author: aeberbach
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2024, 09:48:05 am
content: Quote from: wraper on June 12, 2024, 09:23:14 amAs the Octopus CEO said in Forbes recently, it's a "virtual power plant". Much cheaper and more flexible than the other kind.Quote from: wraper on June 12, 2024, 09:12:31 amIt's not good journalism without a source, it's hearsay. Probably wikipedia is better at it than most traditional media outlets, but The Guardian is better than most. Speaking of your article, Ausgrid is a distributor, not a retailer. How it affects consumers remains to be seen - again, many things could happen.

author: Kleinstein
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2024, 09:50:34 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on June 12, 2024, 08:16:40 amBattery storrage does not make much sense for a longer time frame than a few days at most. For the longer time other solutions (e.g. producing hydrogen or run energy intensive jobs at times when there is sun) make more sense. This includes not using the power at some times when there is really to much.Somehow the energy companies have missed the point of installing enough grid capacita and storrage / use on command to adapt to the fluctuations.Private PV systems may need a way to make them stop sending the power to the grid in a more controlled way (not just from to high a voltage or frequency).

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 12, 2024, 09:57:16 am
content: Quote from: aeberbach on June 12, 2024, 09:48:05 amAgain, what effing source? And it's not a court. Guardian turned trash on the level of The Sun.Not to say at the end of the article:Quote

author: aeberbach
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2024, 10:04:33 am
content: OK buddy, you be you - enjoy that anger and believe what you want. All I see is a quote from a minister that says nothing new without offending anyone.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 12, 2024, 10:18:07 am
content: Quote from: aeberbach on June 12, 2024, 10:04:33 amBuddy, you said it's all BS with no sources. However somehow minister admits it exists. Which means you made a bunch of claims without reading the article.QuoteAnd it's gaslighting and projection considering:Quote from: aeberbach on June 12, 2024, 05:03:19 am

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2024, 10:50:19 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on June 12, 2024, 09:36:55 amOh for sure - it can only be seen as a bonus and can't be relied upon.One of the big issues for the grid in the UK is local interconnect capacity. There may well be sufficient capacity on the grid in the form of batteries to act as a peaking supply, but the power can't always be moved to the right location without curtailment. So there may be an advantage to paying domestic customers to supply energy into the grid.Octopus already offer free energy on a local scale on days when this energy can't be moved out of the area due to DNO constraints:https://octopus.energy/power-ups/Though this is only offered in a few areas at the moment.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 12, 2024, 11:11:54 am
content: The moment I start getting charged for exporting solar, using infrastructure I paid for, is the moment I disconnect it from the grid. I suspect many others will be in the same position.It's going to happen, if nothing else, on a "trial" basis. All the distributors in NSW are on-board with it.https://www.smh.com.au/environment/sustainability/nearly-a-million-nsw-households-face-new-charges-for-solar-exports-20240516-p5je4c.htmlThis has been coming for some time and shouldn't really come as a shock to anyone. Those with solar should be encouraged to either use it, or store it.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2024, 11:20:19 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on June 12, 2024, 08:16:40 amPlease explain this further.So you do currently have/did have "net metering" where you can consume your exports at a later time without additional cost for the storage?Claiming a new 250 eurodollarpound expense means nothing if we don't know the existing arrangement.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2024, 11:22:00 am
content: Quote from: aeberbach on June 12, 2024, 08:42:40 amNo surprise that a system where consumers are selling power to the grid for income while the wholesale price is negative needs some changing.

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2024, 11:31:20 am
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on June 12, 2024, 09:20:06 amYou assume they actually want a solution to the problem, they would rather have the cash and leave the problem for someone else to deal with in 10 years.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2024, 12:11:58 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on June 12, 2024, 08:16:40 amFind stuff to do with the excess, for example crypto mining or distilling water.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 12, 2024, 12:17:12 pm
content: Quote from: NiHaoMike on June 12, 2024, 12:11:58 pmThe problem with mining is that you want to break even with hardware cost ASAP as its value is deprecating real quick.

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2024, 12:21:10 pm
content: It seems to me energy for heating or cooling buildings could be stored as hot or cold water and that would be relatively low tech and allow the storage of lots of energy.In very hot weather I run the a/c at night, when rates are lower, when outside air is cooler and so the heat pump is more efficient. So the house, which is well insulated, gets a bit colder than I need and later, during the day, the a/c is off but the house retains most of the temperature. I have some temperature swing but I am paying MUCH less than I would if I ran the a/c during the day.If we installed some hidden heat storage units we could store the heat or cold when convenient and use it at a later time when needed.

author: MT
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2024, 01:43:41 pm
content: Quote from: Halcyon on June 12, 2024, 11:11:54 amAnti paywall edition.https://archive.fo/ORwKo

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2024, 02:17:35 pm
content: In a smart grid the local grid operator would tell your solar inverter to limit the feed-in power to a specific value (to keep the grid stable).

author: m k
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2024, 04:30:10 pm
content: Quote from: Halcyon on June 12, 2024, 11:11:54 amWhere to put it?A bot net of something useful, P2P of ChatGPT.The next level of screensaver.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2024, 11:06:53 pm
content: Quote from: madires on June 12, 2024, 02:17:35 pmYes, it would be rather rude to put a negative price on exports if the end user cannot set their inverter to avoid it. All this was supposed to be "solved" but never rolled out for consumers.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2024, 11:12:57 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on June 12, 2024, 08:16:40 amDoesn't your power inverter allow you to control how much energy you pump to the grid?

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2024, 01:48:40 am
content: Quote from: wraper on June 12, 2024, 12:17:12 pmCould mine Curecoin/Foldingcoin, then even if you don't make back the hardware cost, you'll at least advance biomedical research.

author: David_AVD
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2024, 07:41:28 am
content: I would have thought that all modern solar inverters are able to be set to zero export. Mine is set to the max allowed (5kW), but could be changed if required.I'm not sure how many have more sophisticated rules to allow for the export limit to be varied by time of day or other factors.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2024, 09:23:22 am
content: It's all about vested interests rather than proper government for the people !WA where our eldest son lives, power is predominantly from non-renewables and mostly gas fired turbines which can be throttled down when solar or wind scales up....if they can be bothered or enforced to do so.https://www.energy.gov.au/energy-data/australian-energy-statistics/data-charts/australian-energy-mix-state-and-territory-2021-22But no, they'd rather penalise the renewables although these have been encouraged for years where many of the existing solar installations are still using dumb inverters not capable of remote control.Staring at us are Gubbermints with little idea of the real world and being squealed at by Power Co's at the hard time they have getting a ROI on plant that has been in operation for years, if not decades.Poor them but the squeaky wheel always first gets the grease.

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2024, 10:36:03 am
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on June 12, 2024, 08:19:27 amThen... don't supply? What's the problem?It's the same for every producer. Negative priced hours are a reality everywhere with hourly (or 15-minute, or whatever) pricing based on auctioning on free market. We have negative priced hours here, and that actually means that the nuclear operator has to pay for dumping their unwanted energy into the grid, and consumers get paid by using this unwanted energy.Every market in existence works the same way: people pay to get food when they are hungry, but if you go and force food down the throats of people not interested in eating your food, police gets involved. Why would electrical energy be any different? The grid collapses if you forcefully push more energy than is consumed, there needs to be a way to turn off excess production when unwanted.And people do not act upon hopeful wishes. Money, aka giving negative cost (or actual fine) is the easiest way to make people comply. Unsurprisingly, some % of people are stupid enough they don't understand this at all and continue to push their product onto others and then complain about a "tax", which is not a tax, and has nothing to do with taxes whatsoever.You can hit your head on the wall and wonder how it hurts, but you can also choose not to export energy when the grid does not need it:* By increasing self-consumption (by using simple low-cost timers, or real automation system),* and, lacking a way to further self-consume, just turn the damn inverter off;every new solar inverter (I think at least in EU it's now by law) manufactured within last x years already have simple digital inputs that can be used to limit production - e.g. again with a simple timer if you don't have a real automation system.Mostof the electricity production methods never fully coincide with the use. For example, nuclear is nearly constant output + random and planned total outages. Usage patterns are far from constant, and by Murphy's law, outages coincide with worst case usage. Wind power produces power when it's windy, and solar power when the Sun's shining. Andsome% of that, on annual scale, is not going to coincide with consumption. Deal with it. Take it into account when building a system. Sheesh.

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2024, 10:44:19 am
content: Quote from: Siwastaja on June 13, 2024, 10:36:03 amCalm down, dear. Calm down.

author: Zucca
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 13, 2024, 03:25:26 pm
content: Ohhh yes...here in USA, SC there is no sun tax but in order to interconnect your solar system to the power company grid, you need to bend over and take your pants down1) install a bidirectional meter (which in 2024 is just remote config change in the current meter so one time $.01 cost for the power company)This bidirectional meter will increase the base price from $12.5 to $30/month in your billAh... in the past it happened they all of the sudden increased the bidirectional meter "fee" from $20 to $30.Basically they can ask as much as they want from you to get their business case green again.2) They look back in the past 12month energy usage, and predict how much your solar system will generate.If predicted generate power > used power in the past 12 month THEN NO NO you can't interconnect your system to the grid3) You basically sell at 50% and buy back at 100% price/KWh4) In case the grid goes down you need to turn off the solar panels for grid operator safety (no AC power feedback)... so a regular solar system it not acting as an UPS.because of the above 4 reasons, I told my power company they can kiss my white italian ass and I decided to not feed back power to the grid...So...ESS Victron systemwith 42KWh LiFePO4 and 14KW solar panels... life is good now. I am on grid 10% of the time more or less.I pay the power company $12.5/month to have basically a silent and well maintained AC emergency generator.

author: m k
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2024, 08:07:02 pm
content: 35x100Ah?Finally quite small storage space.Even less if more vertical.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2024, 09:20:38 pm
content: Quote from: Siwastaja on June 13, 2024, 10:36:03 amThis reasoning is the wrong way around. The grid should need the solar power. Always. In the end solar power only supplies a tiny bit (like 10% or so) of the total electricity consumption for many countries which are not in an area with constant sunshine. This means that generating capacity to deal with the full load is always there. So for solar power to make sense, there needs to be grid level storage which can absorb production peaks. Ofcourse you can come up with all kinds of contraptions but in the end these are just gimmicks for people who like to follow today's hype and don't care about cost, reliability and inconvenience. Timers, optimisers, home storage, price trackers, etc all need extra hardware and services from suppliers (who may cut the service at any time) which just add extra costs with very little ROI. The majority of the people simply want to watch TV and cook a dinner while it is dark outside. The grid should be laid out to deal with that as it always has been. Maybe the answer is that putting solar panels on people's roof wasn't such a good idea after all because the grid can't be made into needing the solar power in acost effective way. The 'sun tax' starts to point in that direction.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2024, 10:33:58 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on June 13, 2024, 09:20:38 pmYes, and the quickest way to make gird storage happen is to economicaly incentivise it.You currently export to the gird when there are plenty of energy sources producing, which is worth less than your grid consumption during tighter supply. If wholesale/time-of-use pricing doesnt reflect the costs then where is the incentive for anyone to add storage?The broken market is where you joined this thread, making complaints that it's unfair to you to pay for storage. But now you also want to somehow have incentives to add storage but not at any cost to you?

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2024, 10:41:08 pm
content: I never wrote that storage shouldn't cost any money!Read what Psi wrote earlier very carefully as it is right on the money. People shouldn't be penalised for supplying energy when it isn't needed but power companies should be penalised for not storing energy. In the end the storage costs will be carried by the consumers but this is only logical. However, I think it shouldn't have to make much difference in price per kWh in the long run.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2024, 12:18:03 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on June 13, 2024, 10:41:08 pmWell then explain your opening post:Quote from: nctnico on June 12, 2024, 08:16:40 amWhat is the arrangement of costs/payments that is in place for your grid exports and imports, currently/historically and in the future. You brought it up, but won't explain the actual detail/situation.It sure sounds like you're objecting to paying (a tiny fraction) of storage costs.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2024, 01:48:14 am
content: Quote from: Someone on June 14, 2024, 12:18:03 amI would and bitterly.A worldwide push to renewables and when the public hears the subsidised call and contributes only to be penalised.If the Gen Co's don't like how the grid is run tough shit but these new technologies are here and will remain, subsidised or not.If they were so worried about future grid supply one would imagine they might have been planning additional capacity a decade in advance to lessen the need for additional future supply.But no, they underinvested in their core business and the inevitable growth in demand only to now have their grass mown by the myriad of domestic solar installations.So what solutions exist for stability of supply ?Proper governance placing users in charge with binding expectations on the Gen Co's to ramp up/down and match loadings ?If not, why has domestic solar been promoted and subsidised all these years ?Continuity of supply of mankind's greatest advancement in century's is at risk.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 14, 2024, 02:16:13 am
content: Quote from: m k on June 12, 2024, 04:30:10 pmNo where. I would turn the entire PV system off so it's not feeding excess back to the grid, and just run off batteries/grid alone.I would rather the PV system be off, than be charged to use my own equipment. Unless of course they want to pay me back for part of the original cost.

author: vad
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2024, 02:21:49 am
content: Quote from: Someone on June 14, 2024, 12:18:03 amThe answer to this question is irrelevant. What difference does the current arrangement make if it can suddenly change tomorrow?For example, where I live, like in most US states, net metering is the arrangement. However, these policies are not written in stone, and state legislatures have the right to repeal net metering at any time in the future.An industry that runs on subsidies cannot flourish forever. Non-competitive policies, such as the net metering, which mandate utility companies to buy solar energy at off-peak times at retail rates, essentially is a subsidy often compensated by taxpayer money.Consumers should beware before getting a loan and putting a lien on their house to buy that 20kW system for $60K. The salesman most likely lied to you when they presented how much your monthly bill would change if you did business with them. The loan is for 15 or 20 years, but net metering could end or the 'sun tax' could be introduced any time, as soon as voters are fed up with radical greens.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2024, 02:24:04 am
content: Quote from: tautech on June 14, 2024, 01:48:14 amI'm pointing out the user who is specifically leaning on storage doesn't want to shoulder the cost. When they should be the one paying for what they use, rather than having everyone else who isn't explicitly creating demand for storage to contribute to its cost.This is the problem with all the doublespeak and reactionary commenting around renewables. You've jumped onto the wrong ship!Why should solar panel users have a subsidy on their use of grid storage? Thats the current situation for many (including nctnico).I think that the wholesale pricing should be more exposed to all users equally, and not just for some.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2024, 02:28:53 am
content: Quote from: vad on June 14, 2024, 02:21:49 amI was trying to tease out the silliness of quoting a 250 eurodollarpound "cost" when there was no other monetary information. A 250 currency unit cost is relevant if the other benefits are of similar magnitude, or if the person is complaining about losing a small fraction of an even larger benefit/subsidy that others do not have access to. Agree with the rest that buying into these things is a risk like any investment, all the loud complainers are out to distort the reality and hide their selfishness by making out like it affects "everyone".

author: vad
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2024, 02:44:59 am
content: Quote from: Someone on June 14, 2024, 02:28:53 amIt is obvious that when taxpayer money runs out, ‘exporters’ will suffer. I do not know how each individual ’exporter’ would be impacted. If I were investing in solar today, I would assume that exports are valued at zero dollar. A fair market price for solar exports is a small fraction of retail rate, which can effectively be rounded down to zero for convenience.There is no way a utility company can run a profitable business, without subsidies and mandates, buying solar energy at retail rates during the day when energy demand is low. Why would they pay top dollar if they can buy energy from wholesale generators at a fraction of the retail rate? Why would they invest in grid-level storage infrastructure and not pass the cost to customers?

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2024, 02:48:19 am
content: Quote from: Someone on June 14, 2024, 02:24:04 amAgree in part.Wholesale pricing is made from many parts including spot pricing when demand is high and capacity is low.Every country is different depending on what their base/core generation is.Renewables are generally the lowest portion of total energy supply and some like hydro are effectively short term storage and have a real capability to respond to demand. Pumped hydro is another method to meet short term demand but at increased cost.Nuclear and coal fired are much less so and best suited to base loads and effectively the safest investment for a stable ROI.Here we have Gen Co's, the national grid operator and retailers but what clouds the waters are some Gen Co's also have retail arms which IMHO is a conflict of interest and needs be busted to allow for a bidirectional path of true market signals.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2024, 06:38:41 am
content: Quote from: Someone on June 14, 2024, 12:18:03 amNope, you really are reading something which simply isn't there.And no, bringing the spot market prices to end users isn't the solution. Electricity prices jumping all over the place is a clear sign that there is something really broken where it comes to electricity generation meeting demand versus time. With a switch to more renewables there has to be storage. At that point the electricity market prices should become more constant to indicate a healthy market where supply meets demand. IOW: the core of the problem needs to be fixed, not the symptoms.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 14, 2024, 09:06:55 am
content: ^Spot prices jump this high because Nord Pool is an uncompetitive anti-consumer bullshit. Do you know why the price was this high in 2022? It's because everyone was paying natural gas generated electricity price despite that most of it was generated in other ways. The way the price is formed is absurd, it's basically an auction where electricity suppliers bid their price for blocks of electricity they are ready to supply until the last block of required amount is fulfilled for the lowest price available...and then every supplier gets paid exactly the same last most expensive block priceeven if it's 100x of what they had bid. So electricity producers had a windfall while energy intensive industries and individual consumers suffered. I remember during one hour price was EUR 4kWh because they didn't fulfill the last block (IIRC some bids were rejected because they were for smaller smaller amounts that that last block) and EUR 4 was the cap put in the system.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2024, 10:35:26 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on June 14, 2024, 06:38:41 amVariation in market pricing is what should pay for storage. Not market intervention to hide the cost.

author: m k
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2024, 10:49:05 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on June 14, 2024, 02:16:13 amIf there is a good cause would you donate it?Is making your own hot water a norm there?I have a cold water and electrical everything.Swimming pool under a house would be nice.(insulated, for the winter)

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2024, 12:22:24 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on June 14, 2024, 06:38:41 amIt can be excellent with some crucial changes: add a "lifeline" level of 1kW or so (implemented as the average usage of 1kWh in one hour, so peaks won't result in high charges) that will always be capped at a reasonably low price. Also a limit of how many hours in a day can the price be above a certain point. So the essentials will never cost a lot to run and large loads can be scheduled to some time of the day.More than anything else, we should give incentive to build thermal storage for HVAC anywhere there's significant demand for HVAC since that's the simplest and most economical storage technology we have.

author: Zucca
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 14, 2024, 03:22:44 pm
content: Quote from: Halcyon on June 14, 2024, 02:16:13 amA PHEV/BEV car with solar panel system is surely a good idea IMHO.BTW: newer electric cars can have a bidirectional flow of energy: when the house call for it, the car can deliver some energy.Downside: car needs to be parked at home during the day. For SWMBO car surely a possible scenario.

author: vad
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2024, 06:01:26 pm
content: Quote from: Zucca on June 14, 2024, 03:22:44 pmGet an EV for solar energy storage and keep the ICE vehicle for commuting to work. Brilliant idea! Solves the “range anxiety” problem too.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2024, 07:56:52 pm
content: Quote from: Zucca on June 14, 2024, 03:22:44 pmThat is the worst idea ever. You are going to wear the most expensive part of a car. People saying the effect on the battery is benign are overlooking one simple fact: a battery has a limited amount of cycles c.q. total amount of energy it can store. So every kWh going in/out causes wear. A car with a highly used battery will simply be worth less just like a car with a high mileage. All in all, buying a seperate electricity storage system will always be more cost effective compared to using a car's battery. Especially since you could size the storage system up to capacities exceeding any car's capacity by far.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2024, 08:30:10 pm
content: Currently, why do you export to the grid? Is it because you just feel good about it or do you get paid for it, or get it back when the sun goes down, or what?

author: David_AVD
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2024, 10:04:51 pm
content: Quote from: PlainName on June 14, 2024, 08:30:10 pmThe power I export to the grid is paid to me at a rate approx 20% of the rate I pay for power coming from the grid. Obviously self consumption is the key thing. Use as much of that solar power yourself first and draw as little as possible from the grid.I moved the HWS from off-peak to a timer set to only run during the day. I also swapped out the HWS element to one half the power. It takes twice as long to heat (still only a few hours), but it means that the house consumption can stay under the generation curve even on less sunny days. Similarly if it's a really hot day I can turn the AC on remotely and pre-cool the house with solar power and then use minimal power to keep it cool after I get home.The fixed daily charges keep creeping up of course. If the exports ever start to get charged for (costs me money), I would implement export limiting for sure.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2024, 11:34:30 pm
content: Quote from: Halcyon on June 14, 2024, 02:16:13 amAgreed. To be fair, and I don't know about your own case, but many such installations have been subsidised, so you got "paid" at some point already to have your installation (again, may not apply to you specifically).The problem with this though is that money doesn't necessarily circulate in a fair way.But other than just money, this is also a question of leading people on. They were told they would get money from the energy they would supply the grid, and for a while, they did. Then once there are enough people with solar installations, the deal starts to look much worse. In that, it's exactly like with any of the big tech companies, luring people in with attractive deals and once there are enough customers, and these are hooked, bam, they start changing the rules completely and start charging ludicrous amounts of money for the same service. They may justify it with plenty of relevant figures, but you can't help but feel scammed.Technically, of course, sure the problem is all with the storage, but it's nothing new. Everybody knows that it's still an unsolved problem for the most part. One can just wish all professionals involved were honest about it to their customers, rather than lead them on constantly, just to get more users.As a owner of such installation, all you can do is to try and focus most of your daily power consumption around peak solar hours. Yes, unfortunately, with typical modern life, it's often exactly the opposite, but there are still ways to optimize that, and yes, that's something you need to be responsible for when you start being a "producer" of electricity, rather than just a passive consumer.And yes, as some have said, you can just turn it off entirely at peaks hours instead of feeding the grid and having to pay for it. Assuming that you actually can do that with the installation you got. But that is so obvious that if there are still lots of people angry, sure that may be because they are all stupid, but that may also mean that there's a little more to this tax than this. And well, tax creators are so, uh, creative, that I would also be extra wary of not being able to circumvent the tax as easily as it looks.

author: Zucca
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 15, 2024, 01:18:15 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on June 14, 2024, 07:56:52 pmDepends on how it is done, without numbers/spec. on the table how can you be so sure? Imagine 4 cars in the garage delivering max settable xC... when needed.For example grid fails, EV cars powers the home until grid comes back. With an anti-Islanding system installed of course.Anyway if it is so stupid go and talk with the EV car companies that are implementing such idiot idea.

author: Zucca
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 15, 2024, 01:24:13 am
content: Quote from: vad on June 14, 2024, 06:01:26 pmNo. SWMBO will use during the day for grocery and come back 30/45min later in the garage.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 15, 2024, 02:35:40 am
content: Quote from: m k on June 14, 2024, 10:49:05 amSure, if I could find some way of donating it, but aside from running an extension cord to my neighbours house, I don't see how I could.Electric hot water tanks are common here, but so is gas. My home is plumbed to natural gas for cooking and instantaneous hot water (the gas burner only heats the water, as required, when the tap is on).Quote from: PlainName on June 14, 2024, 08:30:10 pmI export to the grid because I have no where else to put or consume the excess power generated. Sure, I could run air conditioning off it during the day, but most days, I don't need to. Once it's exported, it's gone and no longer "mine" to consume. I get paid a. pittance for it, I think it's 7.5c/kWh. In summer, it only equates to about $30 off my total bill.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2024, 07:28:37 am
content: So what are ourfeasiblegrid storage options ?Excluding some flammable battery solution.Or is it even necessary if existing generation was to be better managed ?

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2024, 08:22:34 am
content: Quote from: tautech on June 15, 2024, 07:28:37 amI keep an eye on hydrite (hydrogen + metal) based storage systems for home use. These are quite safe and compact. However, I don't think these will become affordable this decade.Grid will likely use hydrogen in gas form based storage.https://www.csiro.au/en/research/technology-space/energy/Energy-storage/Underground-hydrogen-storage

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2024, 08:57:54 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on June 15, 2024, 08:22:34 amThe advantage with Hydrogen is it can also be used in modified ICE vehicles.We in NZ had some recent discussion when a large smelter considered shutting down and the local grid supply to it was too large to inject into the national grid which didn't support transmission from its remote location.So a Hydrogen generation plant was suggested to use the 800MW from Manapouri and export it as liquid Hydrogen.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manapouri_Power_StationNot sure the alternative energy industry is ready for this yet or even if Hydrogen power generation is sufficiently developed.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2024, 09:39:35 am
content: Some years back there was experimentation for energy storage with high speed flywheels on magnetically levitated bearings in a vacuum, I wonder if it could be proven as viable ?

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2024, 11:24:02 am
content: Quote from: David_AVD on June 14, 2024, 10:04:51 pmOk, thanks. So when it's said you would be paying them to generate electricity and export it to the grid, that's not quite correct? A less emotional version might be that the profit you make from doing so would be a bit smaller?

author: m k
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2024, 12:10:00 pm
content: Quote from: Halcyon on June 15, 2024, 02:35:40 amSo out of a perimeter screensaver is still a bit ahead, but plausible.Like nearby Uni putting up an crypto mining farm for something more useful.And operating their own cold fusion experiment.Quote from: tautech on June 15, 2024, 07:28:37 amIt seems that I read sort of constantly that big chunk of global electricity is used for something sort of secondary.Maybe that just is how it will be as long as big data is electrical.Electricity is also utility and everything is in the same grid.Maybe same grid has something, like a sub grid where high priced households are their own grid.Would also need a suburb electricity company.Nearby industry can eat quite a bit.But generally industrial electricity is priced totally differently, here it's even a company secret.My guess is that here industrial electricity is not many cents.I have a spot electricity, its last week is in the picture.Above stuff arePrice now, daily min/max, week avg, four week avgLowest is this yearJanuary, March, MayJanuary peak was high but now wide.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2024, 12:15:12 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on June 15, 2024, 07:28:37 amAnywhere HVAC is needed a good part of the year (that would be most areas), thermal storage is an excellent solution. Orders of magnitude cheaper than batteries.

author: David_AVD
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2024, 10:50:38 pm
content: Quote from: PlainName on June 15, 2024, 11:24:02 amAny power I draw from the grid is charged to me at ~ $0.30 per kWh. Any power I push into the grid is paid to me at ~ $0.06 per kWh. If I'm generating 7kW and only consuming 3kW, the 4kW I'm putting back into the grid earns me $0.24 per hour. If on the other hand I'm generating 2kW and consuming 3kW, that's a 1kW draw from the grid, costing me $0.30 an hour (would have been $0.90 per hour without the solar helping).Of course this varies over the course of the day. In practice, during the majority of daylight hours I'm exporting more than I'm consuming. At night of course I'm drawing 100% from the grid. The amount I can export to the grid is capped at 5kW, so there are times of good production but low consumption when the inverter throttles back to keep to the export limit. You can see the inverter ramp up to try and maintain the 5kW export when consumption increases and there is more power available from the panels.A lot of people (and some solar companies) will say that there's no point getting more than a 5kW inverter as that's the export limit. That's crazy talk as you need to take your consumption into account. Some hot days I can have the ducted air and lots of other stuff running and still be exporting to the grid because the inverter and panels can do it. Sometimes the consumption is over 5kW and the inverter is supplying it all. My system is not massive (10kW of panels spread over 3 aspects and an 8.25kW inverter) but I'm glad I didn't do for the smaller systems offered by some.