Countries Loosing Critical Trades - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Poroit
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 30, 2025, 06:45:20 am
content: I guess other countries also have this problem.https://www.abc.net.au/news/2025-04-28/tools-engineering-pattern-making-manufacturing-industry/105134026

author: BadeBhaiya
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 30, 2025, 10:41:01 am
content: I work with an 80 year old ex-toolmaker at my company, he's the head of mechanical design (we make IIoT devices). The kind of person who designed tools for factories capable of producing 1k to 10k parts per minute. Although these days he designs plastic dies for vacuum formed/injection moulded plastic enclosures.Toolmaking is dying because its a trade that requires an active manufacturing culture and industry. There are no school courses which teach toolmaking, toolmakers are just mechanical or industrial design grads who learned on the job, most likely under the mentorship of an experienced toolmaker.You can't have toolmaking without making. And in our current world, almost no one makes anything except China and USA

author: krish2487
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 30, 2025, 11:14:31 am
content: Quote from: BadeBhaiya on April 30, 2025, 10:41:01 amand I suppose you are an authority on toolmaking industries around the world?Sweden, Germany, Denmark, Luxembourg, Austria to name 5 off the top of my head.. All have active industries in their niche areas of work where they own the entire supplychain including tool and die making... Its just that the tools in question are super specialized to the particular area of work..and I find it laughable that you mentioned USA... especially with the rhetoric of the present government about "brining manufacturing back to the US"

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 30, 2025, 11:29:53 am
content: In the uk i blame past governments who implied if you dont have a degree your a failure and watered down apprenticeships by offering them in cleaning and making coffee

author: BadeBhaiya
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 30, 2025, 11:53:08 am
content: Quote from: krish2487 on April 30, 2025, 11:14:31 amNever claimed to be, just the observations of someone who's been around designer engineers in heavy industries. Besides, the link in OP is talking about manufacturing related to heavy industries, automobiles and such.QuoteUSA is actually a major global manufacturer, they are just not very visible because the kind of goods they manufacture. Still they're #2 in automobile manufacturing.Although I must say, the amount of manufacturing in China is simply mind boggling, they really do shadow everyone else.The American rhetoric is something that the uninformed like to parrot. The truth is, they never stopped being a manufacturing powerhouse but automation ate away a lot of jobs so it looks like nobody works in manufacturing.

author: paulca
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 30, 2025, 12:04:32 pm
content: Quote from: themadhippy on April 30, 2025, 11:29:53 amWas it Blair? His "Lets make the UK one of the most qualified countries in the world."Reality: Mickey mouse qualifications like NVQs that ended up being given out to the mass unemployables ... who still weren't employable. A semi-smart person could complete and NVQ in an afternoon and probably pass the exam before reading the materials. Although most included a "Team" element making that frustrating impossible.I actually have about 4 NVQs and a couple of "City and Guilds". I don't even put them on my CV unless they are specifically related to the role.

author: paulca
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 30, 2025, 12:19:19 pm
content: When you had factories and shipyards where were wall to wall manually operated machines and an entire workshop making, fixing, modifying tools and tooling... we needed schools and tech schools putting out thousands of these people.In those same days there was a strong concept of "A job for life". When "Willmott and Sons" hired you, then were willing to invest a very large amount of time in bringing you up to spec as a master of the work.Things are very different today. A team of a single tradesman, a handful of 'skilled' engineers and an assortment of unskilled labourers can run a plant with a dozen lines and 100 machines today.So we don't need thousands of these people pumping out of schools anymore.The other part of this though is "What do we do with that potential labour force then?"J Peterson repeated a statistic that I found disturbing when discussing this. Something like 15% of the world population lack the IQ required to fold an A4 sheet in 3 to fit into an A4 envelope without constant supervision and prompting.What do you do to enable those people in a modern society? Can you just 'write off' that 15%?

author: u666sa
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 30, 2025, 12:26:59 pm
content: What that article and comments in this thread say, you know what they say?Manufacturing is in 3rd world countries where labor is cheap.This simple picture. Everything here has Asian origin, even the desk is made in Vietnam. The only thing is is not Asian is Rose's metal, that is made in Russia. There are some screws and plastic clamps holding cables in the back, perhaps those are made in the U.S.A., I don't know.

author: krish2487
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 30, 2025, 12:32:08 pm
content: Quote from: BadeBhaiya on April 30, 2025, 11:53:08 amso an image of a car on an assembly line automatically makes it an article about Automobile manufacturing ??The article specifically mentions foundries.. which have way more applications than just automotive.. and my point is still relevant.. foundries, tool and die making is very much alive in other countries... mostly in industries you might not have heard of..WRT US being a "powerhouse", that died with the demise of Detroit... and I m certain Italy and Germany would likely be considered automotive powerhouses than the US. and not just due to the manufacturing industries.. but because of the sheer ecosystems they have spawned around to keep the industry alive... and yes tool and die making are a few of those sectors they keep alive..Hell at this point, I would again say Sweden is one as well... IKEA, Volvo, SKF bearings, Maersk... all huge sectors where manufacturing / tool making / foundries are well and alive!

author: krish2487
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 30, 2025, 12:37:45 pm
content: Quote from: BadeBhaiya on April 30, 2025, 11:53:08 amTheonespecific sector of manufacturing where I consider manufacturing and tool making still alive in the US is the Heavy Press program, that they stole from Germany at the turn of WW2.The rest is just noise...

author: 5U4GB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 30, 2025, 12:44:17 pm
content: Quote from: paulca on April 30, 2025, 12:19:19 pmJordan Peterson is a sophist who will manipulate words to convince you that black is white, I wouldn't listen to him for any useful information. In particular this figure is quoted entirely out of context, something like 3% of the population have an intellectual disability which means they're suited for specialised occupations (employment here would be things like shelf fillers in department stores/supermarkets, that sort of thing), then another good chunk of the remainder would work in occupations where it doesn't matter whether you can fold paper into an envelope, things like gardeners and day labourers who can give you an hour-long analysis on the best way to deal with the drainage issues at the bottom of your property even if they can't write it down for you, etc. So the figure he's quoting is essentially meaningless, that 15% he mentions can be perfectly functioning members of society without being able to pass some arbitrary test he's decided on.

author: paulca
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 30, 2025, 01:20:06 pm
content: Quote from: 5U4GB on April 30, 2025, 12:44:17 pmWhile I agree. Just on one point, it wasn't his test. He was quoting a paper. On how he leads you to "his" conclusion, yea, not my first time rodeo learning that and having to back track.In the UK, 1 in 4 of people aged 17-19 and entering the workforce or not entering it due to mental illness or disorder.https://www.bma.org.uk/advice-and-support/nhs-delivery-and-workforce/pressures/mental-health-pressures-data-analysisCome to your own conclusion of this one.

author: BadeBhaiya
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 30, 2025, 01:22:27 pm
content: Quote from: krish2487 on April 30, 2025, 12:32:08 pmThey do talk about the fall of specialised trades in Australia which surrounded the automotive industry in the article, that's why I pointed it out. Its not important, don't worry about it.QuoteI don't doubt it. I'm only aware of the industry I'm familiar with, so there are going to be huge discrepancies between what I can claim, and what is the reality in some other sector across the world.QuoteI do agree European manufacturers have developed a great supply chain. Its not something that is easy or quick to do. Besides China, I don't think any other nation has that. Maybe not even USA.Don't want focus on automobiles in specific, but since that is the topic, below are the production numbers. In 2024, China was #1, USA was #2.Although the China number is probably propped up by a lot of disposable quality electric mopeds, but still.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_motor_vehicle_production

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 30, 2025, 01:29:17 pm
content: Just checked my old university. They still have their foundry and offer a degree in foundry technology. Anyhow, guess from which countries Chinese manufacturers buy their machines!

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 30, 2025, 01:56:12 pm
content: Quote from: paulca on April 30, 2025, 12:04:32 pmThat indicates you are relatively young; the issue is is deep, is not party political, and originatedlongbefore Blair.Companies started not wanting to run apprenticeships on the basis that "we would train them and then they would go to another company". There was validity to that, but the companies should have made it desirable tostaywith them afterwards. Consequently apprenticeship schemes were wound down in favour of other qualifications and polytechnic courses.Universities tended to be traditional theoretical plus some practical on the job further education. (Too simplistically: the output was engineers)Polytechnics tended to be practical on the job plus some theoretical further education. (Too simplistically: the output was technicians)That was good: more theoretical courses and more practical courses are equally valuable. Analogy: you need both nurses and doctors; both are valuable and there is both overlap and distinctive differences.Snobs looked down on polytechnic further education.Polytechnics (with political support) decided to rebrand themselves as universities.Now people have difficulty distinguishing the two, which is a shame.All that happened during Thatcher, and earlier.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 30, 2025, 02:56:08 pm
content: Quote from: krish2487 on April 30, 2025, 12:32:08 pmDid this demise happen recently? I'm a bit out of touch, but last I knew the US was still building cars. My electric car was built in Sterling Heights, Michigan. One interesting tidbit is that the engine block for the Ferrari/Maserati version of the Pentastar is (or was) die-cast in Kokomo, Indiana and then finish machined in Trenton, Ohio. IDK what the process is after that, I'd guess that Ferrari insists on doing the final assembly themselves.

author: krish2487
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 30, 2025, 03:45:24 pm
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on April 30, 2025, 02:56:08 pm1. I would imagine somewhere in the 80s and 90s... since the quality of Japanese and Korean cars improved...2. I never said that manufacturing did not exist.. Just that its nowhere near on the same level of vertical integration as when Detroit was in its prime.3. Consequently, unlike European counterparts you do not simply have cities that spawn up just to keep an automotive manufacturer running.. certainly not on the same scale.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 30, 2025, 03:51:21 pm
content: I guess the problem is one of competition.When I was working at the last gig we got plastic tools made for a product, by a company based in the UK. All in for 10 parts it came in around £50k.For the next iteration we decided to go to China and they would do the same job for £10k.There is not £40k of labour cost saved by going to China. I understand it's cheaper to run a business in China, but the reality is many UK businesses are simply uncompetitive on this kind of stuff, and if we want to bring manufacturing back on shore, that UK quote needs to be coming in somewhere around £15-20k. To the point where having a local business is worth it in other respects, with regards to turning around quickly, being available to resolve problems in the same time zone, and not facing high duty or shipping costs.I am not sure how you do that.A similar issue exists with PCBs. We have been using a UK manufacturer of boards for some time, but only for really high end stuff. They folded last year, because there wasn't enough business, now we have to go to Europe to order the boards we want. They would regularly come in around £3-4k for a 10-layer board on a short turnaround. China could do nearly the same for £600, but we couldn't use them for 'reasons' for anything that was considered secure or highly proprietary.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 30, 2025, 03:54:48 pm
content: One thing to keep in mind when businesses are complaining they can't find people is that those businesses likely aren't paying enough to keep people around.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 30, 2025, 03:56:05 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on April 30, 2025, 03:54:48 pmYeah, it's always "we can't find staff" not "we can't find people wanting to do a highly skilled job for the same amount Lidl will pay shelf-stackers".

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 30, 2025, 04:08:45 pm
content: QuoteIts not just labour cost though,its the whole cost of doing business ,how do rent and rates compare,taxes ,transport costs,even just chucking the waste away

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 30, 2025, 04:17:40 pm
content: Quote from: krish2487 on April 30, 2025, 03:45:24 pmAmerican-brand cars also improved by leaps and bounds from the late 70's to the early 90's.QuoteThere is supply-chain globalization, but automotive plants still have massive local supply chains for all sorts of things. That includes the import-brand vehicles that are manufactured here in the US. They aren't assembling Hondas, Toyotas and BMWs from kits. That means foundries, machining plants, plastic molding operations and Tier-1 sub-assembly contractors. The scale is proportional to the overall output. IDK what you mean by "cities that spawn up" in reference to the EU. Where are these new cities? Torslanda was 50 years ago.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 30, 2025, 04:27:32 pm
content: Quote from: themadhippy on April 30, 2025, 04:08:45 pmRight well exactly - what is the UK losing by not providing these facilities with the lower costs they need to remain competitive? Quite a lot, I would argue. On rent costs - We have become a nation of landowners to the disadvantage of nearly every other part of the economy. It would be good to see that shaken up.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 30, 2025, 04:46:59 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on April 30, 2025, 03:56:05 pmAnd then when we do, we make their life as difficult as possible with "management".

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 30, 2025, 04:57:02 pm
content: Quote from: tszaboo on April 30, 2025, 04:46:59 pmHow many what you would consider good managers, have you known in your entire professional career?I can count them on one hand and still have fingers left over.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 30, 2025, 05:48:43 pm
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on April 30, 2025, 04:57:02 pmMaybe 3, 2 that was my direct boss, 1 that I consider still my friend.

author: SteveThackery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 30, 2025, 06:09:45 pm
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on April 30, 2025, 04:57:02 pmSame here. It seems management is much more difficult than people realise. Also, it seems unusual in that you can be really bad at it and still keep your job - far more so than for most other jobs. At least that's my impression.I think it is difficult becausegoodmanagement requires many skills; you need to be a planner, an organiser, a leader, a counsellor, a negotiator, and so on.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 30, 2025, 07:03:18 pm
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on April 30, 2025, 04:57:02 pmI don't think I have ever been managed. Even when working at a company with 4k+ employees I had very little interaction with the person who was supposed to supervise me. Maybe an hour a year. I guess I'm kind of unmanagableI had some co-workers who sucked at getting things organised/prepared for me every now and then but I never took the blame for that.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 30, 2025, 07:53:58 pm
content: Quote from: SteveThackery on April 30, 2025, 06:09:45 pmMany competent technical professionals (engineers, etc.) are rewarded by being promoted to management positions (which pay better), despite being untrained at management (especially directing people), which is a very different skill.

author: NE666
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 30, 2025, 08:20:20 pm
content: Quote from: TimFox on April 30, 2025, 07:53:58 pmI suspect that's the primary mechanism behind the Peter Principle. Neither employer nor employee, initially, realises the importance of the requisite additional training and experience before such a transition is made.

author: 5U4GB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 01, 2025, 01:51:32 am
content: Quote from: TimFox on April 30, 2025, 07:53:58 pmSome larger companies recognise this and create parallel promotion paths with titles like Distinguished Scientist where they progress to management-level pay grades while not wasting their talents filling out reports and chairing meetings.

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 01, 2025, 02:58:10 am
content: No qualifications are required to be a manager, or a politician for that matter.It's a huge problem that ails the world especially of engineers.I've had the ditch-digger who climbed up the ladder to be CEO, I've had PhD's as my boss, I've had football loving laymen giving engineering directions.They all think they are above the lowly engineer. So it's a mess trying to explain why something needs to be done differently or better. They take it personally.Engineers that get promoted to management positions are either the ones no good at engineering or they get the promotion becuase no one else is available. Doesn't mean they are any good at it because, like the craft - you need education. All the experience in the world does not a good brain surgeon make.This leads us to CEO's, Wall Street types running companies slowly into the ground.You don't need trades, skilled labour - you just hire/fire as needed. Outsource them too, save a bundle on payroll. Critical trades are lost in a commodity-mentality I think.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 01, 2025, 09:52:00 am
content: Quote from: floobydust on May 01, 2025, 02:58:10 amSee the Peter PrincipleQuoteWe used to havepersonnel departments. They were replaced by humanresources departments. I remember asking why, and it was told that it encouraged managers to use employees as they would other resources.Hence the concept of depreciated value, and competent experienced people having their CV annotated "PSBD"; past sell-by date.Bin Laden was crude an ineffective; accountants and MBAs are far more effective.

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 01, 2025, 11:49:24 am
content: Quote from: tggzzz on May 01, 2025, 09:52:00 amOver here they are also playing the 'everlasting shortage of IT people' game to keep salaries of IT staff low. What they actually mean is that there is a shortage of young IT people, just graduated, working 60+ hours a week for a meager salary and without compensation for overtime. And those youngsters won't tell the managers when something is a bad idea.

author: paulca
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 01, 2025, 12:38:04 pm
content: Quote from: floobydust on May 01, 2025, 02:58:10 amAnother take on that. In software we needed managers who knew how to run software development. Often these managers would self select in their want for more control or a wider field from just being a "dev". "They never manage these things right, I want control over the process damn it.", is quite often followed in enterprise by "Okay, here you go, here is just enough and no more responsibiility, off you go, demonstrate your prowess oh holy engineer."However. Due to the corporate world being the corporate world and the increasing disrespet it holds for "engineering" as a pure cost centre... the appetite from engineers to progress upwards to a "Managing Engineer" role pretty much disappeared.Along with the entire role of "Development manager".Now we have clueless fuckwits with no software experience trying to run multi-million pound software projects. I am on one such project and I am brought between tears and rage daily with incompetance and repeated, consistent failure in management. It's worse than I have ever seen.10 years ago my company were PLEADING with devs to move to management. They found 1 candidate in a company of 200 devs when they tried to recruit 6 development managers they needed already. Then COVID hit. Everything changed and as for the company I work in, it chanced ownership. The new owners don't seem to even understand such a role exists. They would and do hire managers from supermarkets and plonk them into "Dev team manager" role meant to be scheduling and pipelining work to a small collection of teams and workstreams. None of them have the slightest clue how. They "invent" processes "themselves". Like recently I had to listen to a room of 6 managers in it work out what "release notes" where. They think they invented it and it's there idea. It's sadening and enraging at the same time.It all makes totally frustrating sense. I don't have a solution though. The present situ is un-tenable, but I'm wrestling with being ~10 years from retirement and how much I should actually care. I can quiet quit here easily. They have no idea Im not doing my job because they have no idea what my job is or what I do. They take 10 times longer to get stuff "dev ready" that it should take, so I spend 10 times longer on reddit and forums. I even told them this. They don't seem to care. They believe this is how long things should take. They have hood winked the customer into believing this too. The customer is writting the cheques. Where is the problem? (sic)

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 01, 2025, 12:39:42 pm
content: Quote from: SteveThackery on April 30, 2025, 06:09:45 pmOf those characteristics mentioned (planning, organizing, leadership, a counseling, negotiation), which do you feel is the most lacking of the managers you have encountered during your professional career?From my experience, its the lack of leadership skills. The worse are the ones that feel you owe them respect by nature of their position. I suggest leadership does not come from obtaining a degree, but more to do with how a person was brought up.

author: paulca
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 01, 2025, 12:58:56 pm
content: Quote from: madires on May 01, 2025, 11:49:24 amHell I wish we were still in the days of hiring graduates. We ran out of IT graduate intake in 2010. We ran out of *any* graduate in 2015. We now list NO QUALIFICATIONS on our job adverts. 50%+ are "Shortage of skills VISA imports", which, at least usually come with qualifications unlike the local 19 to 20 somethings who have no interest at all in working in any company.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 01, 2025, 01:05:03 pm
content: Quote from: paulca on May 01, 2025, 12:38:04 pmThere's a key concept I came across in the early 80s: "drop dead money".https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Drop%20dead%20moneyVeryuseful for maintaining a perspectiveClavell is currently an under-rated author. His weltanschaaung was forged in Changi PoW camp, and informed his first novel, King Rat - rapidly made into a decent film.

author: paulca
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 01, 2025, 01:10:59 pm
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on May 01, 2025, 12:39:42 pmInteresting question. "Right now" in my present situation, it's none of those. It's placement, tooling, encapsulating, authority and boundaries. Too many "dilute of sector knowledge" managers in the wrong places with no clear lines of authority.Nobody can move. Nobody can innovate because there is no encapsulation of responisbility in the structure. I use Software engineering terms, but "boundaries and authority... ownership" might be more business buzzword terms.Each decision has to pass through a disorganised cloud of managers with less and less contextural understanding the further out you go. Then you have to wait on the response.In some heavy management structures this is the result of too hard boundaries and "silo"ing but here it is the result of a small teams of "dozens" all talking and "start up" mentality, "one big family", expanding to 10s of dozens and all those nice "Just ask Bob" type processes fell apart.So you might have "a manager" managing a dev stream, but he is not the only manager involved and none of them hold the authority to make any changes.The whole process turns invert and goes right up its own arse. We are delivering too slowly, lets add more managers with no clue. Those managers then want visibility, so they start putting more and more demands DOWNWARD to those doing the actual work, instead of supporting them.It doesn't go down well, but I WILL and DO repeat this to management frequently.When it comes to developing software, there are two types of people. Those doing the actual development and those SUPPORTING them. If you are not developing or supporting the development team you are superfluous or a leech.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 01, 2025, 01:14:16 pm
content: Quote from: TimFox on April 30, 2025, 07:53:58 pmKeep in mind that this isn't always done as a reward.Sure, sometimes it is. But that was more usual in the past. These days, this is more often done as a way to bring in fresh engineers to replace the older ones while not laying the latter off, as they can still be useful to train the new ones.In other words, upper management turns senior engineers into trainers while making them think they moved up the ladder. And once enough new engineers are trained, the "manager" can get replaced too - which often becomes relatively easy, as by that time, they probably have shown enough management incompetence that "poor performance" can be invoked.

author: paulca
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 01, 2025, 01:27:47 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on May 01, 2025, 01:05:03 pmIt's a psychologically difficult journey that one - determining your own drop dead money. Simultaneous equations relating to "qualify of life" and how it relates to "quality of health and age".E.g. If I save everything, invest wisely, live frugal through my 50s I might retire at 60 and have 10 years of decent, well funded quality life before I become decrepit and wont need money to "have fun" or "travel" because I wont be able to.Many people have advised me to not go that path. Do not "frugal and austerity" my 50s as I WILL 100% hate myself for it in my 60s no matter how much money I have.So that only really leaves financial investments, playing the books, gambling, prospecting, that can go well or badly.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 01, 2025, 01:54:36 pm
content: Quote from: paulca on May 01, 2025, 01:27:47 pmThere is, of course, no single right answer. However, there ought to be black and white areas beyond the grey area in the middle.you need to build up a reserve now, because who knows what will happen next yearyou need to enjoy life now, because you may drop dead next yearwhatever situation you fond yourself in, make a point of finding some pleasure in it; the more things you find pleasurable, the betterremain child like (cf childish); enjoy watching a leaf float down a small stream, bouncing off the rockslook for serendipitywhat's right now might not be right in 10 years time; "leg of lamb", and all thatit is often difficult to work out the right question; the right answer will often be much easier

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 01, 2025, 03:24:43 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on May 01, 2025, 01:05:03 pmI started calling it "fuck you money" once the movie came out.

author: RoGeorge
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 01, 2025, 04:14:37 pm
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on May 01, 2025, 03:24:43 pmSeen a ton of movies, but not this one.That scene you posted seems like a worth to see movie, thank you.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 01, 2025, 04:22:00 pm
content: Quote from: paulca on May 01, 2025, 12:38:04 pmAnd then there is the company that places the software guy in charge of the hardware department. Because it's close enough.I recently had to sit through a meeting where the project plan was presented to a customer. Because of hubris, of course I, as a lead engineer wasn't asked about it. It was a jumbled mess, not taking vacations or component lead times into account. The parts that "typically take x weeks if I can work on the project 100%" were presented as done in x weeks.Lead time of critical components as: 0 weeksreality: 12-15 weeks if we order nowAnd I hear today, that our customer will shout with the manager because behind schedule. So what am I going to do about it?It was really really hard not to say that I'm going to let them grill you for your incompetence. Maybe I bring popcorn.Oh and no prototypes, everything works the first time.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 01, 2025, 04:36:19 pm
content: What are you going to do about it?In the guise of being a good supportive minion, ask leading questions, verify that you haven't misunderstand something, mention "stretch goals" in the light of previous experience.In writing, copied to interested parties and BCCed to a home email address.If necessary, ask for "written guidance". Thatshouldscare them.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 01, 2025, 06:02:33 pm
content: Quote from: tszaboo on May 01, 2025, 04:22:00 pmNothing. A long time ago I was send to New Zealand (from where I am litterally half way across the world) for a project where the project manager really dropped the ball big time. I had to tell the customer that I had to write the software they bought in my hotelroom for the next two days. And so I did.Upper management probably got a lot of flack for that but that is not my problem.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 01, 2025, 06:19:12 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on May 01, 2025, 06:02:33 pmI would have guessed your upper and middle management shouted how they saved the day, got a bonus, blamed you, and you most likely got nothing except to keep your job.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 01, 2025, 06:47:47 pm
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on May 01, 2025, 06:19:12 pmNot really. There was too much blame to go around between various external parties as well.I had a great time in New Zealand though.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 01, 2025, 09:30:42 pm
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on May 01, 2025, 06:19:12 pmWell, my favorite is when1) I suggest to do, or not do something2) Document it properly3) It gets ignored4) Stuff goes bad after a while5) Nobody remembers anything anymore5) They blame me for it6) I pick up the documentation show them what they did7) They huff and puff, things move along8 ) Forget that they dropped the ball9) They bring it up years later and somehow I was still responsible for it.It can be anything. Specifications, requirements, other department's work...

author: SteveThackery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 01, 2025, 09:50:57 pm
content: The six phases of project management:1/ Enthusiasm2/ Disillusionment3/ Panic4/ Search for the guilty5/ Punishment of the innocent6/ Praise and honors for the uninvolved

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 02, 2025, 12:10:07 am
content: Quote from: SteveThackery on May 01, 2025, 09:50:57 pmI would disagree with (6), as usually, they manage to blame those who weren't part of the disaster.Meanwhile the architects of the debacle are praised & honoured, as management only remember the initial enthusiasm.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 02, 2025, 01:21:22 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on May 01, 2025, 06:47:47 pmIts rare I have seen any manager take responsibility. Its better to back stab their workers. As we say, shit rolls down hill. I can't over stress the need for that fuck you money, especially if your company doesn't value its staff.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 02, 2025, 04:13:25 am
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on May 02, 2025, 01:21:22 amOddly once you have it, you may find you no longer actually have the need or desire to tell anyone off.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 02, 2025, 01:43:58 pm
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on May 02, 2025, 04:13:25 amHaving attended several sensitivity trainings over my career, I can tell you that I still speak my mind regardless of our net worth. I suspect most people who are financially set, retire. For the few who work for the pure enjoyment of it, its more being able to walk away on your terms once management's BS takes all the fun out of it.

author: UnijunctionTransistor
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 02, 2025, 03:20:34 pm
content: Quote from: RoGeorge on May 01, 2025, 04:14:37 pmNow, this is a movie I should see. Definitely an award winning performance for John Goodman.Back on topic that modern corporations are dysfunctional organizations is nothing new. Scott Adams has made his career and fortune describing it on the Dilbert cartoon.And by Adam’s own admission, he got most of the inspiration from e-mails he received from his readers.Including the outsourcing of technical jobs to the fourth World, specifically the grossly under-developed country of Elbonia.

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 02, 2025, 05:12:07 pm
content: It's one thing to normalize inept/incompetent/greedy/corrupt/criminal management and executives, as Dilbert has done for decades, verses we all let it happen.As a profession gets abused. The dumb and corrupt leading the smart.Nursing is another profession that I think suffers the same plight-Massively overrated/overpaid executives in health care and hospitals, aggressively cut operating costs.Leaving a skeleton crew of nurses who are overworked, stressed, near burn out.WHAAAA there's a shortage of nurses! WHAAA hospital wait times are outrageous! WHAAA crisis!

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 03, 2025, 03:13:20 pm
content: Quote from: floobydust on May 02, 2025, 05:12:07 pmMost people I know don't have fuck you money, have a mortgage, kids, and other monthly expenses. Many live beyond their means. There is no union. Many states don't protect the workers. We have an unwritten policy to terminate white males above 45. While it is age discrimination, I have never heard of any class action suits being brought against the companies that practice this. Imaging living in constant fear that you could be broke with a pink slip.While I have always been exempt, I've worked at a few union companies. I had just started working at one of them and met a union worker who asked me, are you planning to retire from here? He followed with, don't. Your a white male and once you reach 40, they will boot you. He was old and protected by the union. My first job was a real shit show. I remember one manager telling me everyone is expendable. Fear can be a motivator, but once you have that fuck you money, they need to find other ways.I assume you are part of the "we". What is your plan?

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 04, 2025, 07:23:02 pm
content: I've had FU money for many years - I learned to have that from the brutal recessions, when you get laid off and are out of work for months. Canada has a small, weak, shrinking electronics industry.Now how I live is to pay cash when I buy a new car and live debt-free. I have no family to support, no mortgage left, no divorce etc.This is what keeps the "wagie in a cagie" trapped working for ShitCo.Secondary payoffs to having FU money is the massive balls you get.One employer wasn't giving any raises for a few years and I'd had enough so I went to the CEO and flamed him for this. Didn't matter if I got canned or not. CEO then gives me a raise but it's tiny when you factor it in over say 2-3 years. You know the "cost of living" increase 1-3%. I flamed him again lol. Then he gives me some kind of "bonus" the executives get but not sure how much it will be, based on EBITDA blah blah. Well, good enough for me to calm down lol.Months later I get the bonus and it's $10,000 wow exec's have good perks. I realize engineers are basically mules.Next FU money was my third employer trying to skirt product safety and approvals. One company had some sheaves explode (over-rev), another had two gas explosions (mosfet shorted). Boss wants me as a PE to develop products yet Boss is not a PE. Just get the products through regulatory ASAP, ignore that safety stuff the other engineer failed to do. I told them I needed time to do the safety analysis... "it will blow up the project Gantt chart, project will be late, Boss looks bad etc. NO you aren't getting that time".I walked out the door on that one. Fuck these corporations, the pushing me around stops when it comes to safety. They don't get that.As I keep saying "engineers carry all the responsibility yet have none of the authority" in their works.I don't have a solution to this, as companies just complain they can't find skilled people, and outsource more and the nation death spirals towards a Detroit scenario.Boeing spent years union busting, especially under scumbag CEO Dennis Muilenburg. Still going on.The Society of Professional Engineering Employees in Aerospace (SPEEA) 17,000 workers. Boeing will never make a new commercial airliner, they tossed their critical mass.So the union can't protect it's members from corrupt leadership or greed, really.

author: EPAIII
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2025, 03:00:34 am
content: You laugh at our president. Where do I start?Ever hear that silly rule that the first word of a sentence is capitalized? I did not say "English sentence" because it apparently applies to almost every language that I have encountered.Denmark is a country with many languages but Danish is the the official one. I saw at least five others listed as being spoken there. And on top of that, German and English are also spoken by a majority of the population. As a person who has always had trouble learning new languages, my hat is off to them.I did some research on how this rule applies to Danish and found mixed results: examples where the first word of every sentence was capitalized and examples where it was not. I could not find a definite statement as to which was preferred. Perhaps this provides an insight into why you would not employ this common rule. I did not look into the other languages spoken in Denmark, but I suspect that they also may not require first word capitalization.Sentences are ended with a period, not the mix of ellipses and other meaningless punctuation that you have apparently invented. Again, I did not say "English" sentences.I had to look up "brining".https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/briningI fail to see your meaning when you use it in a quotation. I have never heard those words from anyone. This could be a failing on my part, but somehow I doubt that. I suspect you are misquoting someone.My point is it is difficult to take anything you say seriously. And if this is a reflection on the educational system of your country, then I suggest you should worry more about that failing and less about the leadership of other countries.As for tool making, i do have a small knowledge of that. The problem is there are many types of tools ranging from ages old hand tools like hammers, saws, screw drivers, etc. to some of the most sophisticated devices known to man. China plays a big role in this but there are others.I do know that there has been a decline in tool making in the US over my lifetime (81 years). Why, you ask. I like to think it has been a desire for a better lifestyle that has had taken a wrong turn for some. In the past a person may have dreamed of starting a business with a known or new product and saw that as the path to success. Around the 50s, when WWII had ended and all those ex-soldiers were looking for jobs, the idea that a college education was the key to success took root. I certainly was infected with it. So that was my path for success in life: first prep school and then a college degree. Sounds perfect!But of course it wasn't perfect. While some could follow it, others couldn't find room in a college. They were the less motivated. Not all of them, but many. However they still wanted to be paid well so things like unions got them that and the price for domestic production slowly went up. Not immediately, not all at once so it would be noticeable, but a bit at a time there were fewer small companies starting with new products or old ones for that matter. Not enough of those who were both motivated and courageous enough to fight the trend. This created a vacuum and slowly we began importing things instead of making them here. It was easier to make money by buying them at the lower prices of other countries than to make them here. As some of those college graduates noticed, we started turning into a services economy. But they had jobs that paid well so why worry.I think that trend continues to this day. I'm not an economist: I don't have a business degree. And I certainly don't have the answer. I do know that the US needs to be more self-sufficient. We need to be able to carry on if external sources dry up for one reason or another. I do think that capitalism and a free market are part of the answer. But there still remains that big difference in the cost of labor here and in other countries.But I digress. Does that mean that the US is one of the countries that are gaining those "critical trades" people? Perhaps, but I don't see it. I can certainly see why some others are losing them. Those "critical trades" people are certainly more mobile so a number of factors can cause them to move to another country or region: wars, high taxes, bad governments, social factors, etc. People have migrated for all of recorded history, before actually, so I don't see them stopping now.I don't think that many people even consider tool making as a good path to success here. To start a company that makes tools you would first need to navigate your way through high start-up costs including government regulations, taxes, and the high cost of buildings and the equipment needed. Then you need to find those skilled people who are going to be scarce and who will want high salaries. How many can you afford to employ for those months before the first piece of tooling goes out the door? And even more months of red ink before the company turns it's first profit?On top of all that, your cost to produce that product, that tooling is going to be higher here than in many other countries. I have attempted to produce products here just working by myself (free labor) and from my house/garage. But even the cost of materials here is many times greater than what an entrepreneur in a country like China would pay. I have the remains of one such product sitting on a shelf. I can't even sell them for the price of the parts in them because people are accustomed to the prices of similar items from China. I'm working on another item which is a tool. Not only must I design it to be precise, but also every part in it must be made or purchased at the absolute lowest price possible. Any parts that are made are, of course, made in the US. But if a part is purchased then a US made part is going to be between two and ten times more than one made in China. I see no way around that unless I could buy in quantities of tens or hundreds of thousands. If you do, please let me know. So my design is greatly influenced by the cost of every item in it. Some will need to be purchased so I will have to find the very best price. But it will be a better design, with better specs. than any other, like ones on the market. I don't know if this item will be a success but I am trying anyway, using my own money for financing.Oh, I forgot to mention advertising. Nothing is going to be sold if people don't know about it. But advertising costs money. If you think all those other costs are bad, then don't even talk to the advertising people. This is just one more item where I must find ways to reach a lot of people at the lowest possible cost. And by "I" I mean just myself. There is no way I can afford to pay others for ads that don't work. And they would never dream of providing their services on what is called a "per sale" basis. That tells you something about just how effective the various forms of advertising really are.So those are the thoughts of someone who is trying to buck the trend in our world today. Will it work? Time and the marketplace will tell.Quote from: krish2487 on April 30, 2025, 11:14:31 am

author: EPAIII
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2025, 03:10:58 am
content: I had to chuckle. The funny thing is, your six phases still exist when you are the owner and sole employee of the company.Quote from: SteveThackery on May 01, 2025, 09:50:57 pm

author: Poroit
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2025, 07:44:14 am
content: It looks like Toolmakers are still in demand in the USA.https://www.indeed.com/jobs?q=america+toolmaker&start=20&vjk=cb9388e98b3b08f3https://www.glassdoor.com.au/Job/us-toolmaker-jobs-SRCH_IL.0,2_IN1_KO3,12.htm

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2025, 09:17:29 am
content: Quote from: floobydust on May 04, 2025, 07:23:02 pmElectronics engineer is probably the worst paying engineering job out there.

author: krish2487
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2025, 12:40:48 pm
content: Quote from: EPAIII on May 05, 2025, 03:00:34 amQuite the long rant..1. The word I was intending to type was "bringing". It was a typo but I think most of the people would have recognised that, given I was quoting your president who made that statement.2. I am glad you acknowledge that the toolmaking industry has seen a decline over your lifetime.3. I fail to see any relevance to the rest of the long rant about what transpired and how that is contributing to the discussion, specifically wrt to bringing back manufacturing to the US. US is not alone in facing those numerous issues you mentioned. Every other country also has their share of those problems.. maybe a little more, maybe a little less. but they all have it.4. The detour about the language was entirely unnecessary and over the top, dont you think?5. It is acceptable to use an informal, colloquial tone and language when posting on these forums. I certainly havent seen any rule that we need to communicate in "The King's English" now... and I stand to be corrected if you can point one out.

author: paulca
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 08, 2025, 11:30:03 am
content: I think a lot of manager confuse a number of distinct qualities and miss-apply them.1 Manager2 Commander3 Leader4 Director5 SupervisorIn context of Software Development the thing that has seemed to be forgotten is that "Software Development Manager" role ONLY requires item 1. Item 2 is TOXIC in the role. Item 3 would be a bonus, but isn't ideal. 4 again a bonus. 5... not the right role.The trouble is most managers who are not "experienced software dev managers" completely fail to understand how to "manage" without also assuming the other roles above.The trouble with that is... they are not software developers, nor do they have any experience or knowledge of software development. So any and all attempts to "command" ,"supervise", "lead" or "direct" will, without fail, miss-lead, miss-direct, waste and pilfer performance and eventually stall the entire work stream into Zombie land.Right where I am now.EDIT: Why can you not "Command"? Well, when you give a developer a task, it will fall into one of 2 categories. Something that has been done before, or something that hasn't been done before (in the project). Now, if it is something that has been done before, there should be existing code that can be reused.... however if it is in the 90% of tasks which have not been done before then... honestly, hand on heart, the developer does NOT, YET, know how to do it. Not specifically. They spiral in on it as they go, but when asking them things like "How long will it take?", do not get too ruffled when they say, "No idea, not a clue. Give me a few days to prototype a few ideas and I'll give you a Level 0 on it."If you want to assume the command role and "I want this, then!". Then you will need to either just make shit up or contingency pad the life out of it, add it to the RAID log, whatever, but just "Manage it". It is better to let the devs lead. Give them a "Lead dev" if you want a leader. The manager role should be just trying to bring order to the resulting choas. Not directing, not commanding, just managing and bringing order, predictability, foresight, forecasts, protection, upwards and outwards communications, presentations... etc. etc.A good dev manager "encapsulates" the dev team, wraps it in protection layers, manages expectations and first and foremost, "Removes roadblocks and obstacles" in the background before developers hit them.Analogy. You have a leak in the bathroom. You call a plumber. You explain the problem. Plumber says he can get to you Tuesday for a look at the problem and an estimate and they might fit the job in next Thursday.In response, you being the afore mentioned idiot manager/commander reply, "No, tell me exactly how long it will take. I have the bathroom booked for another purpose on Wednesday, so I want it done on Tuesday without fail. Okay?"What do you think the response is going to be?When you then stand over him when he is doing the work and involve your uneducated self in his work, you will distract and annoy him and when you continue to question what he doing... no demanding he do things in certain ways, or not to use a certain tool for a certain task... or hell not allow him to bring his own tools.Honestly, how can you expect to get anything but sub-standard work, that takes longer to get done, leaves a bad taste in the plumbers mouth and if he has any choice he will never work for you again.