Freetronics vs Jaycar (IP & copyright issues)  - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: vk3yedotcom
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2016, 09:37:20 am
content: This video, by Jon Oxer of Freetronics, could be worth watching for those interested in intellectual property, copyright and what can happen if you're too successful at developing a product

author: DerekG
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2016, 10:09:06 am
content: This is not a good indictment on Jaycar Electronics.Pretty shabby really.The owner of Jaycar (Gary Johnston) has been embroiled in a few other sordid activities.You can read about a couple of these on Wikipedia:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaycar

author: Kean
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 17, 2016, 11:08:17 am
content: I know this is just business, but it is still bloody awful behaviour - to the extreme! I guess it is the price you pay as part of the open source movement.I'm not sure if Australian copyright on published works is automatic like in the USA. The Freetronics Getting Started Guide was published without any copyright notice, and that would possibly make any legal action difficult.I'll be shopping with Altronics instead of Jaycar whenever I can now. All the in-house Jaycar/TechBrands stuff is total rubbish anyway, so I pretty much only buy basic components there like switches and connectors.I'm going to place an order with Freetronics right now to show some support, even though I have no real need for anything.

author: jonoxer
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: October 17, 2016, 11:33:05 am
content: Kean, you're a champ :-)Don't feel obligated to place an order just to support Freetronics, but I certainly appreciate the sentiment. And if you do place an order, I'll make sure you get a bonus of some kind.

author: Kean
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 17, 2016, 11:45:16 am
content: No worries Jon. As a small business owner myself, I always like to support guys like you and Little Bird Electronics.You produce some very useful stuff for prototyping, and also for the occasional gift for friends and relatives.

author: Barryg41
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2016, 12:04:03 pm
content: Superhouse!One of my top five Youtube content providers!Thanks Jon

author: Muttley Snickers
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 17, 2016, 12:15:19 pm
content: This in my view is extremely low and dispays poor form on the part of Jaycar, I actually picked up and asked about this particular kit whilst in one of their stores recently and was then directed to a different dunny duino product altogether hanging on the rack, at that point I lost interest and told them to never mind and I will stick with my original maximite instead.I've had a trade account with Altronics since day dot and haven't used it for ages but that is about to change, for my line they have a much better variety than RPG or Jaycar and the later is nothing more than the handy devil we know, I'm done and dusted with them and not just for this particular episode, currently sharpening the scissors for the Jaycar trade card that I have had since I was a puppy.

author: sleemanj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2016, 12:29:37 pm
content: Wow that's pretty low for an Au/NZ company, you expect that bevahiour from an aliexpress seller or whatever, goes with the territory, but a local doing it is just plain rude.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2016, 12:32:53 pm
content: Copyright on printed works is pretty well established - if the original contained a copyright notice then there would probbaly have a pretty good case to go for them for infringement on the booklet, however the viability of that would depend on the logistics and entry cost of your legal system.

author: MarkB
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: October 17, 2016, 12:39:57 pm
content: I've just watched your YouTube article, Jon and found myself becoming angrier by the second!I have patronised Jaycar since Dick Smith stores (the ones with Sales Assistants who knew what a BNC connector looked like!) disappeared into the mists of folklore.However Jaycar might justify their actions, or some people suggest "All's fair in Love and Electronics Component Retailing", this is pretty grubby dealing by a company I expected (unrealistically, it seems) better of.Surely if they wanted to produce a similar item, they could have done so in a much fairer manner.After all, they already have a virtual monopoly in the component stakes.I was quite unfamiliar with Freetronics, but I shall make sure your brand is now known at our local radio club.Keep up the good work, regards from the Mornington Peninsula.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 17, 2016, 01:35:52 pm
content: I moved this to general chat.What a bunch of duchebags Jaycar are

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 17, 2016, 01:37:40 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on October 17, 2016, 12:32:53 pmAs Jon explained, it's just not worth it financially or time/sanity wise. Much more effective and zero cost to put pressure on them socially.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 17, 2016, 01:39:24 pm
content: Quote from: Kean on October 17, 2016, 11:08:17 amIt does't matter, copyright is automatic on all written work.And:http://www.freetronics.com.au/pages/terms-conditions#.WATYMeB96M8

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2016, 01:47:53 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on October 17, 2016, 01:35:52 pmI'm not so sure... In the beginning of the video Jon says there is an Arduino COMPATIBLE board in his kit. This would imply he isn't selling original Arduinos either.I agree about the copyright on the book and box. There is definitely an infringement so at least a cease & desist letter is in order but in the long run the expenses probably don't justify the cause. Sad but true and something they are probably well aware of at Jaycar.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 17, 2016, 01:59:15 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on October 17, 2016, 01:47:53 pmHe's not complaining about the Arduino.

author: AlfBaz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2016, 02:17:32 pm
content: I was brought up on the notion that copying was bad. If you attempted it in school you'd get a fail and some detention.Who'd of thunk the copycats where the ones to have better employment opportunities than someone who studies and comes up with their own ideasTo make matters worse, not only is jaycar "ripping off" a local business, they're ripping off somebody they were/are doing business with!It's a crying shame that getting a distribution deal for a product you invested in is used as a trial by a distributor only to have that deal cancelled if it does well and have your product cloned

author: station240
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 17, 2016, 04:13:14 pm
content: Bad Jaycar, bad.Their shitty pricing is the usual reason I don't buy stuff there, but this really stinks.To clone a product you actually resell anyway, that's just nuts.I bet they just sent it to China and got it copied and mass produced, no one else would be stupid enough to leave the window cutout the same.Methinks Dave should pay another visit to the Jaycar warehouse, annoy them in person

author: BurtyB
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2016, 04:16:45 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on October 17, 2016, 01:59:15 pmI think the point nctnico is trying to make is on one side Freetronics have a clone of the open source Arduino in their kit and on the other Freetronics are sad Jaycar cloned their kit with "open source hardware" printed on the box (which depending on how you interpret OSH includes documentation).

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2016, 04:44:10 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on October 17, 2016, 12:32:53 pmAustralia has been a Berne Convention member since 1928. Under the Berne Convention there is no need for a copyright notice, copyright subsists in a work as soon as it is created.

author: vk3yedotcom
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2016, 08:45:04 pm
content: A flurry of visitor posts highlighting this on the Jaycar Facebook page. Will be interesting to see if they respond.https://www.facebook.com/jaycarelectronics/

author: aargee
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2016, 09:20:43 pm
content: Jaycar dodgy-ness, you could see it happening with Gary Johnson copying most of the Freetronics modules, labelling them as "duinotech", then jacking the price up on Freetronics gear to drive people to the house brand. Bastards.I doubt you could get the ABC program, The Checkout, interested as this is too specialised.As far as I'm concerned, Jaycar is now a display room for China: go to Jaycar, see something interesting (if you're really lucky) and order it from China on eBay.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2016, 11:10:09 pm
content: Quote from: BurtyB on October 17, 2016, 04:16:45 pmYou got my point indeed. And after giving it some more thought the copyright issues seem hairy to me. After all releasing something into the public domain for anyone to do as they please kind off clashes with copyright which is there to prevent people from doing whatever they want which your intellectual property.IMHO in the end it is the consumer who wins. Jaycar obviously has much deeper pockets and better connections to buy the kits in bulk at a lower price making the kits available/affordable to/for more people. Unfortunately Freetronics won't get any money or acknowledgement for their work which kind of sucks for them. But in a way it is like many great ideas: you need someone to turn them into a successfull commercial product otherwise an idea is worth less than the paper is has been written on.

author: @rt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2016, 01:05:05 am
content: I swear I know that guy from somewhere. Not personally, but he must have made other videos.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2016, 01:31:31 am
content: Quote from: jonoxer on October 17, 2016, 11:33:05 amI feel sorry for you. They should NOT have stolen your ideas/copyright like that. They should have at least created their own version, and written their own manuals etc.I noticed that your website still seems to promote Jaycar, as your (resellers) ...Quotehttp://www.freetronics.com.au/pages/freetronics-resellers#.WAV6SvkrKUkThat is especially cheeky of them (to copy your product instead of buying it from you). Since you were (presumably) using them to sell some of your stuff.

author: Mr.B
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 18, 2016, 02:04:57 am
content: That is just disgusting...I will never purchase another thing from Jaycar.

author: @rt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2016, 05:02:31 am
content: Now I remember the YouTube series that was initially promoted by Dave, “The State of Electronics” (in Australia).Featuring Dave of EEVBblog, Gary jonson (Jaycar), and Jon (Freetrhonics). How lovely!I did post to their Facebook timeline, and thanks 3YE for posting it here as well.I’m not going back until/unless Jon says in a future video that his is somehow resolved.That’s actually very inconvenient.Dave, I hope you do what you’re good at, and at least give it a mention.

author: @rt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2016, 05:23:46 am
content: It’s more than this. They have been clearing out the Freetronics stuff for some time,and I even got an OLED on clearance for $40, initially it was a ridiculous price closer to $90, but this is retail after all.I suppose they have every right to do that much since the other Duinotech stuff doesn’t appear to be copied off Freetronics.I would like to know what display this is Jon if you look in here. I don’t want to talk to the intermediate controller someone has put there.

author: Synthetase
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2016, 05:39:52 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on October 17, 2016, 11:10:09 pmThe point you seem to be missing is that ORIGINAL, non-public domain work put into the comprehensive manual text and images is part of what made it a successful commercial product. They didn't just copy the idea, they copied the contents which is illegal. The hardware issue is moot, since it's already public domain.

author: @rt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2016, 05:51:15 am
content: It’s not just the display it’s got a micro on it to provide some dumbed down interface,and SD card socket too, so it must have some software for the file system for that.I’d rather just the display, but I wasn’t the market for this, it was just convenient.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 18, 2016, 05:56:26 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on October 17, 2016, 11:10:09 pmYou have massively missed the point. Jon didnotrelease the documentation into the public domain, he clearly retains right to it as mentioned in his terms page. That is blatant copyright infringement and punishable under law is Jon so chooses. Not to mention publishable under the douchebag social law.Also, the box is clearly a Freetronics original design the rights of which Jon holds, nowhere does he say or imply that it can be copied or is released under license. Whether or not that's protectable or not under law is not the point, it's a douche move to copy it.As for Jon cloning the Arduino, he did thatfairlyunder the terms and conditions of the Arduino license and gave attribution.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 18, 2016, 05:58:15 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on October 18, 2016, 05:45:24 amCloning the documentation and images is, without any doubt.QuoteCopyright is automatic on all written and created works.

author: @rt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2016, 05:59:45 am
content: I shouldn’t have overlooked the comparison between eBay and a physical storefront there.Of course it’s cheaper from China on eBay. So is everything.

author: AmmoJammo
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2016, 06:06:27 am
content: I had a look through the book.... At best, its been retyped from the original... at worst, its copied and pasted with a few words changed..If they had designed their own kit, made their own projects, and written their own book, we wouldn't even be having this conversation...

author: jonovid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2016, 06:15:18 am
content: Quoteonly if you can afford to defend it with $ - justice & the law is for sale as my Dad would Say"copyright & patents give your the right to sue for damages only IF you can afford to do so"-as for Jaycar IP & copyright eventually the Chinese will eat their lunch . people will buy it 100% Chinese with no middle manTo stay business nowadays U must b nimble & agile.

author: AmmoJammo
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2016, 06:21:57 am
content: Sign the petition! because, why not?https://www.change.org/p/jaycar-stop-jaycar-ripping-off-freetronics-remove-the-duinotech-experiments-kit-immediately

author: rdpowers
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: October 18, 2016, 06:23:01 am
content: Not sure if these things ever have any effect, but change.org petition:https://www.change.org/p/jaycar-stop-jaycar-ripping-off-freetronics-remove-the-duinotech-experiments-kit-immediatelyIn any case, I'm happy to keep saying that they just lost few thousand very regular dollars a year in my business. Not sure what the general margins are, but I'd assume there's a few hundred dollars profit in there easily. Have fun trying to make that up in rip-off kits, morons.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 18, 2016, 06:25:24 am
content: Quote from: jonovid on October 18, 2016, 06:15:18 amNo, unlike Trademark law the copyright is automatic and is not lost just because you chose not to defend it.

author: HackedFridgeMagnet
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2016, 07:53:04 am
content: Yes it's a rotten thing to do.So if I need anything of Jaycar quality I might as well get it cheaper from Aliexpress.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 18, 2016, 08:38:00 am
content: At the end of the day, seek legal advice. A lot of people will tell you to put it in the "too hard" basket, however I'd seek advice from the professionals. You'll find many law firms, including the big ones, will conduct an initial assessment of your case free of charge. A lot are also promoting their "no win, no fee" policies in order to remain competitive, if they have a good chance of winning (or reaching a settlement from the defendant), they'll run with it.If you do consider legal action, be careful on what you discuss in public with respect to the case, defendant or the allegation.Quote from: EEVblog on October 18, 2016, 05:58:15 amCorrect.Quote from: blueskull on October 18, 2016, 06:26:50 amNo, they cannot. It doesn't give anyone unlimited rights to blatantly rip-off the creative works of another. Copyright can be implied which means you don't need to necessarily include the 'Copyright' disclaimer.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 18, 2016, 09:00:59 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on October 18, 2016, 06:26:50 amNope, it doesn't work like that.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2016, 09:03:27 am
content: Smelly as it is, don't they say imitation is the highest form of flattery ?

author: jonoxer
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: October 18, 2016, 09:17:25 am
content: Quote from: @rt on October 18, 2016, 05:23:46 amThe bare panel is an NL128128C. We use an SSD1351 controller with it:https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0045/8932/files/SSD1351-Revision_1.3.pdf?881

author: jonoxer
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: October 18, 2016, 09:23:29 am
content: Quote from: AmmoJammo on October 18, 2016, 06:06:27 amExactly! Or even if they'd approached this in an honorable way. I mean, I even make the guide available under a CC-BY-SA license, so it's not like I made it hard for them: they could have used it if they'd done it properly! But no, even giving them that option wasn't enough, they still chose to breach even the generous CC-BY-SA license and just put their own name on it. That's like willingly giving someone cash out of your wallet, and then they snatch the wallet out of your hand too.

author: sleemanj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2016, 09:31:23 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on October 18, 2016, 06:26:50 amNo, no not at all. Copyright lies with the author. The only way others have the right to copy is if the author has licensed them to do so, or assigned them the copyright. The absence of a licence (contract) to permit the copy is the very thing that means that they can't copy it. That covers the manual.Now, I understand that Australia like NZ has the somewhat unusual category of "industrial" copyright which most countries don't have, it's possible that the box design, the foam design, and maybe even the kit makeup could fall under those industrial copyright provisions.Industrial copyright is a unique and separate form of IP protection in New Zealand and Australia and important for manufactures and industrial designers to understand. It can offer protection for innovative and original industrial designs in New Zealand or elsewhere, and includes protection for design drawings, moulds and prototypes.But, realistically I doubt it's worth pursuing.

author: mauroh
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2016, 09:39:49 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on October 18, 2016, 05:56:26 amEven though the whole point here is not about the Arduino COMPATIBLE board, it shows also the style of Jonathan that instead of just include in the kit a 3$ arduino clone he made his own variant (Eleven) with the micro USB and the prototype area...This should be the correct behavior in the OPEN ELECTRONICS world, where you take whatever is free distributed and improve it not just copying it and applying your name.I also agree that nowadays socials are much more powerful than lawyersMauro

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2016, 12:17:23 pm
content: Quote from: blueskull on October 18, 2016, 06:26:50 amThis idea that copyrights have to come with some kind of license to be effective is one you have, quite frankly, made up or acquired from someone who doesn't know what's actually what. Every country in the world that is of any significance is now a member of the Berne Convention. Under the Berne Convention certain classes of work, including written works, are protected by copyrightab initio(from creation) without the requirement for copyright registration or a copyright notice. The only thing you can do by including a license in a written work is toweakenthe existing automatic copyright protection - e.g. a Creative Commons license.

author: StuUK
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2016, 12:19:06 pm
content: Someone on the Jaycar Facebook page pointed out that apparently Freetronics is supporting their cloneAnd there is now a petition although not sure what effect that will have....https://www.change.org/p/jaycar-stop-jaycar-ripping-off-freetronics-remove-the-duinotech-experiments-kit-immediately

author: andtfoot
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 18, 2016, 12:39:40 pm
content: Quote from: StuUK on October 18, 2016, 12:19:06 pmExcept that is the actual Freetronics kit.Real one (XC-4262):https://www.jaycar.com.au/arduino-experimenters-kit/p/XC4262Clone (XC-4287)https://www.jaycar.com.au/duinotech-experiments-kit/p/XC4287

author: StuUK
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2016, 12:48:10 pm
content: Quote from: andtfoot on October 18, 2016, 12:39:40 pmyou're right, now I know what wilfred meant.... stupid me for not checking someone elses post!

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2016, 12:54:30 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on October 18, 2016, 05:56:26 amIn that case: why is Jon complaining in a video instead of calling his lawyer? I was under the impression the booklet which comes with the kit was also in the public domain. I just checked but the PDF for the booklet doesn't have any specific copyright notices on it also the T&C seem to be primarily about the website itself. In the 'about us' page it saysfollowing the Open Source principles of sharing our designs to let other people build on our work just as we've built on the work of others.

author: Jeff_Birt
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2016, 12:55:29 pm
content: Why do places like JayCar sell crappy stuff from China and make cheap clones of popular name brand stuff? They do this because people flock to their stores to buy cheap crap from China. In most cases consumers don't care if they are buying a legit product or a clone as long as they get it cheap. It makes no difference if they are cloned or pirated merchandise or so cheap it will fall apart in short order as long as it is cheap. I've had competitors tell their customers to use my documentation, then I started getting their tech support calls and I promptly threw a fit (for what it was worth).Cheap crap from China is what everyone wants.

author: Kean
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 18, 2016, 12:55:56 pm
content: Interesting thing is you can buy the Freetronics one cheaper than the Duinotech one, either directly from Freetronics or from Little Bird. Admittedly you'd need to pay shipping, but it will save you the pain of the usually terrible Jaycar customer service. The one decent sales rep at my local store is thankfully now with another of my suppliers.Another tidbit - the Little Bird site shows inventory levels at suppliers...So we can see that Jaycar/Techbrands still have 60+ of the Freetronics kits in stockhttps://littlebirdelectronics.com.au/products/arduino-experimenters-kitWhereas it appears that Freetronics themselves only have a few left...https://littlebirdelectronics.com.au/products/experimenters-kit-for-arduinoI hope Freetronics have been paid for the stock at Techbrands warehouse, and don't have them on consignment - that would be extra sad

author: LukeW
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2016, 03:46:40 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on October 17, 2016, 01:47:53 pmAs far as the Freetronics Eleven is concerned, it it his own redesigned product, inspired by the Arduino, Arduino-compatible, with some design changes and improvements, new features and tweaks, and changes to the silkscreen documentation.And importantly - Freetronics puts their new name on this product, their brand, their identity, their documentation, their website, their support. They give credit where it's due as an Arduino-inspired product, but it's clearly a unique design and Freetronics does stand by it astheirproduct.That's a crucial distinction from most of the "cloneduino" out there who have just lifted the original Gerber files for the Arduino, right down to the unmodified "Made In Italy" text and stamped them out without any identity, any support, any warranty, any effort in design innovation etc.

author: LukeW
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2016, 03:57:36 pm
content: Quote from: @rt on October 18, 2016, 05:51:15 amWell go to the Freetronics website and pull up the detailed documentation yourself. (You can use the source IP for derivative works as per the open-source license terms, of course.)(Does "Duinotech" give you that? Nope, didn't think so.)https://github.com/freetronics/OLED128There is no microcontroller in that system. The display controller is an SSD1351, but it's built into the OLED assembly, you can't separate it.The support board behind the OLED provides all the basic life support for the OLED, power supply, the boost-converter for the high voltage bias, and logic-level translation so the SPI interface is 5V tolerant.And it converts the tiny FFC connector into something more friendly for beginners to work with in a rapid prototyping, breadboard, Arduino or Raspberry Pi kind of environment to get started rapidly and easily - which is the whole point.

author: johnboxall
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 18, 2016, 11:56:52 pm
content: Quote from: Kean on October 18, 2016, 12:55:56 pmIt isn't real time, just a guesstimate.Jaycar/Techbrands wholesale are out of FT EXP: stock now.The sad/stupid thing about this whole situation is that in the time taken to copy the box and manual, they could have just created their own versions and had something to be proud of internally - and not have to put everyone through all this BS.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 19, 2016, 12:02:18 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on October 18, 2016, 12:54:30 pmLawyers cost money, and it's just not worth it.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 19, 2016, 01:58:17 am
content: Quote from: StuUK on October 18, 2016, 12:19:06 pmWell, that someone missed a small point...Jaycar is offeringboththe Freetronics and the Duinotech kits - and the image is for the Freetronics kit ... so, yes, Freetronics are probably going to support that one.There is no such reference on the listing for the Duinotech kit.

author: SL4P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2016, 03:32:33 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on October 18, 2016, 12:54:30 pmSo Jon,Jaycar postedyourURL as the support link ontheirwebsite - the least you can do is a short explanation and link to YOUR video on YOUR page - so any visitors will become aware of the issue.

author: johnboxall
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 19, 2016, 05:41:56 am
content: Quote from: wilfred on October 19, 2016, 03:56:14 ama job in Jaycar with mandatory overtime

author: iampoor
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2016, 10:33:35 am
content: Is Australia overloaded with desperate lawyers that will sue any corporation on a whim? I know that here in the good ole' USA we have a large collection of lawyer that dont have a fee unless you win. Could suing Jaycar (in the very least) be a good advertising or brand awarenes campaign?

author: VK3DRB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2016, 10:49:46 am
content: Now it looks like one dodgy Australian company did not have the brains to come up with the idea themselves, so they had to pirate someone else's work. Jaycar's plagiarism of the manual is pathetic and disgusting.Jaycar is struck off my list. They were pretty much a waste of time anyway in my book. Most of what they sell is kitsch, some of it offensive. Best to use respectable companies first like Rockby, Altronics, RS-Comp, Element 14, Digikey, Dontronics, Freetronics, Ocean Controls and others instead.If you need the Freetronics kit, buy it fromhttp://www.freetronics.com.au/collections/kits/products/experimenters-kit-for-arduino#.WAdVJ-B95woand give Jaycar a wide berth.I am no lawyer, but maybe Jon can get a lawyer's "cease and desist" letter sent to the CEO of Jaycar. In any case,If you can't trade with integrity in Australia, you don't deserve to be in business.

author: VK3DRB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2016, 01:01:45 pm
content: Here is an idea...It is possible the entity behind the copying of the kit has not broken the law. But the way to find out initially is to forward the Youtube link to a few lawyers and ask if there is a case that can be made, and then go from there. It should cost nothing for this initial informal advice. Let's assume some lawyer suggests Freetronics has a case for civil action. Then maybe any legal action can be crowd funded. I'd be happy to contribute $100.

author: numloxx
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2016, 04:43:17 am
content: Popped into my local Jaycar this morning for some parts, and headed over to view the Freetronics kit... right next to the copied one.

author: AmmoJammo
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2016, 05:24:55 am
content: Maybe they could buy some Batterisers and copy them

author: kaz911
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2016, 08:23:23 am
content: Actually since they have copied the ART work and Text - Freetronics have a very good/easy case.I work with pictures in my "day business" and the enforceable copyright on human made ART (Photo's / original art) is very strong - and punishment can be very hard. That is actually worth the fight IMHO. They payout could be a lot MORE for each kit than the kit sells for as picture copyright is payable PER IMAGE used * the count of distribution or count of potential distribution. Distribution / copying of text does get payouts as well - but nowhere as easy or quick as stolen artwork.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 20, 2016, 09:01:35 am
content: Quote from: VK3DRB on October 19, 2016, 10:49:46 amWorthless, Gary would know it's a bluff. He knows Jon wouldn't waste the money to go after him.

author: VK3DRB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2016, 10:15:19 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on October 20, 2016, 09:01:35 amOK, so he might know Jon enough not to waste money to go after him, but what Jaycar would not count on is a big bucket of money to set the wheels of justice in motion. If 10000 concerned citizens put in an average of $5, that's $50,000. Of course if Jon does not want to do that, then that is his choice. My gut feel is a lot of people would want to see this resolved to Freetronics satisfaction.In any case, I am involved with a ham club of about 350 electronics enthusiasts, many of whom would shop at Jaycar. And the Youtube video is but a click away.

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2016, 11:37:31 am
content: He could update the graphics on his product to have a picture of the clone and saying "Dont buy the jaycar ripoff version"I mean what are jaycar going to do, sue him for the graphics on his box.

author: station240
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 20, 2016, 11:56:34 am
content: Quote from: LukeW on October 18, 2016, 03:46:40 pmWonderful, so Jaycar have breached Australia's country of origin laws, obviously this PCB is actually made in China.

author: AmmoJammo
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 27, 2016, 07:42:25 am
content: Update, Jaycar have pulled these from the shelves...Not sure if it's a permanent thing or they're still deciding what to do.

author: Kean
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 27, 2016, 08:00:28 am
content: Quote from: AmmoJammo on October 27, 2016, 07:42:25 amEven if they have taken them off the shelves, or decided to give a % of the sales to Freetronics, the problem is that the damage is already done.They aren't likely to dump them in the trash (not eco friendly), so they'll end up on the market somehow - e.g. gifted to schools or sold at their next clearance sale?They will be made to a low price point, so the quality probably isn't up to par. I'd be interested to hear about quality of anyone has one to review.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 27, 2016, 12:13:14 pm
content: Quote from: AmmoJammo on October 27, 2016, 07:42:25 amIt's still on their website - and showing as available in a number of stores. I haven't been in any stores to check, though.

author: AmmoJammo
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 27, 2016, 07:46:56 pm
content: Quote from: Brumby on October 27, 2016, 12:13:14 pmThat wouldn't surprise me, but the stores have been instructed to remove them from the shelves...They may leave it on the website, hoping people will come in and ask about it, simply so they can move the stock that's already in stores...Or, they have every intention of selling them again once the Freetronics are gone, seeing they're now a clearance item...

author: @rt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2016, 09:53:40 am
content: I walked in today and asked a manager “Where’s this famous kit I’ve heard about ?”He played dumb at first, but in the end told me he got an email to remove them from the shelves,and admitted he’d read about it on forums.

author: npelov
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 02, 2016, 08:29:00 pm
content: First I want to apologize if this was discussed already. I made minimum effort searching for freetronics and SuperhouseTV and I didn't find anything so I decided to post.I'm subscribed toSuperhouseTVyoutube channel and just today I noticed this video:. It's nothing new someone wanted to make a profit with minimum effort by copying an opensource product and not contributing to it in any way.So how can one choose to open source their hardware when these things happen. The guy said the video had more publicity than he expected. Well 18k views won't make a difference. Jaycar or whoever they are must be selling the kit cheaper because they spent a lot less resources developing it - copy/paste. So even if you are a kid that believes in open source hardware would you buy the expensive one when you have a $10 multimeter because you can't afford cheap good brand $50-$100. You do whatever has to be done to keep you going with the things you love to do. If that means to buy $3 arduino copy (or clone because it sounds like they've done more work than putting cheaper USB chip) - you do it.So what is your motivation of making open source hardware as a business?Forget about hobbyists who make something for themselves open source the hardware and sometimes they run bigger batch of pcbs to reduce their cost and sell some of them - just for the sake of reducing the expenses of their hobby. I'm talking about a guy sitting there hours and hours making a product, with well done manual for living. Why should he open source his work?You will say if it's not open source it can still be copied. Yes, but they have to make more effort, which could discourage them.I know a lot of angry people will contact Jaycar and yell at them, but you heard the guy - he doesn't give a shit. He'll still sell his kit better because it's cheaper. And sometimes people will buy the rip off because they simply don't know it's just a copy. 18k views is not enough to reach big enough part of Jaycar's potential customers. Likewho's trying to magnetize a relay board by switching it at high frequency. Maybe it's a relay board that's found in someone's open source design files. Not that it's hard to design one, but once you steal a product you can't resist doing it even if it's easier to do it yourself.At least I hope that guy got some publicity and sales from the video sharing (which is not my point of this post).

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 02, 2016, 09:29:16 pm
content: Quote from: npelov on November 02, 2016, 08:29:00 pmEasy, you just open what you want to open.I've done a video on that:

author: npelov
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 04, 2016, 09:25:30 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on November 02, 2016, 09:29:16 pmOf course I watched it. I watch every eevblog video. However it still stinks when you think someone stealing your work. They get a bad name, bad reputation? Well they are going to sell few less copies of your stollen work. Well maybe you are right. Maybe I just can't get into this mindset.Btw, good idea of the partially open source hardware!

author: amspire
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 05, 2016, 12:23:31 am
content: Quote from: wilfred on November 04, 2016, 11:59:58 pmEven if only part of a design is open source, that is very useful to others. If you had a spectrum analyser design and all the analog circuitry and analog board layout was open source, but the A/D and digital stuff was all closed source, it is still extremely valuable. It is not necessary that it has to be all or nothing. I frequently look at schematics from HP/Agilent, Keithley/ Fluke etc to see how they managed to implement one small part of a design. If someone wants to make even 1% of a design open source, that is better then 0%.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 05, 2016, 12:55:18 am
content: Quote from: amspire on November 05, 2016, 12:23:31 amBingo.I'm continually amazed at how people cannot understand the value of this concept and actively argue against it.It's like arguing every company must givealltheir profits to charity, or nothing at all. There is no value in a company giving 10% of their profits to charity.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 05, 2016, 01:01:02 am
content: Quote from: wilfred on November 04, 2016, 11:59:58 pmAnd how has that worked out in practice trying to enforce that?In case you haven't realised, it's been a huge failure. So huge that it has forced the OSWH Association to admit defeat, dump the logo, and start again with legal mumbo-jumbo enforcement.QuoteBut surely you will admit it's still of value?, potentially of big value? Would you want todiscouragethis?

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 05, 2016, 01:02:41 am
content: Quote from: wilfred on November 05, 2016, 12:58:09 amSo your argument is basically terminology semantics.What is your idea for trying to encourage companies to (at least partially) open their products then?

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 05, 2016, 01:40:00 am
content: We've had this discussion before - in great length, depth and intensity.Can I just post this link -Re: EEVblog #921 - Open Source Hardware Problems Solved!- so we can let this thread move on?

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 05, 2016, 05:05:22 am
content: Quote from: Brumby on November 05, 2016, 01:40:00 am

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 05, 2016, 07:14:57 am
content: Quote from: wilfred on November 05, 2016, 02:50:05 amHow? What'syourplan for this?

author: snoopy
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2016, 11:07:50 pm
content: I was at Jaycar in Mulgrave the other day and only two freetronics branded products are remaining out of a large wall of duinotech products. Ironically, of the remaining freetronics products was the kit that has been ripped off !! There's no doubt that Jaycar certainly did a number on freetronics and the only reason they still keep this kit is because they have been caught out red handed.Is it my imagination that every time I go into Jaycar it feels more and more like a trashy 2 dollar shop ? Next thing they'll be floating their company on the Australian stock exchange alongside all of the other trashy retailers that import everything from china !!cheersdavid

author: SL4P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 17, 2016, 05:44:15 pm
content: Quote from: snoopy on December 16, 2016, 11:07:50 pmOT: But for what it's worth, I drive that extraone kmto Altronics on Dandenong Rd.Jaycar isalwaysthe second stop if Altronics don't have what i want.Too many R/C helicopters, and dog toys with LED eyes!

author: julianhigginson
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2016, 03:10:34 am
content: wow.. that's truly awfulJust, really unethical and slimy.I avoid Jaycar pretty much completely anyway, as there's only so much awfully designed, cheaply made bottom dollar garbage I can look at before my blood pressure starts going up. But there goes the last of my goodwill for Jaycar.

author: vk3yedotcom
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2016, 10:19:32 am
content: Jaycar posted the following on its Facebook page athttps://www.facebook.com/jaycarelectronics/?hc_ref=NEWSFEED&fref=nfDear customers. Please note that XC4287 Experimenters Kit for Arduino is discontinued and no longer available. A new and improved kit will be available in the new year for our budding Arduino enthusiasts. Have a wonderful Christmas.The organiser of the change.org petition has claimed victoryhttps://www.change.org/p/jaycar-stop-jaycar-ripping-off-freetronics-remove-the-duinotech-experiments-kit-immediately

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2016, 07:11:47 pm
content: They retyped the manual, changed the box slightly and nothing else..........