Minima Kickstarter - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: hamishmorley
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 23, 2021, 04:44:17 pm
content: Hi Guys,Here is a link to myKickstarterthat I amlaunching tomorrow (24rd March) at 16:30 GMT!https://tinyurl.com/minimaprojectI am hoping to start producing a tinyArduino-compatible boardin a surface mount format." alt="" class="bbc_img" />The goal of this project is to inspire new people toembark on designing their own small, custom PCB'swithout the stress of soldering 0402's and QFNP's,as well as to provide a useful tool for people wanting torapidly prototypeideas.Feel free to make any comments/ask any questions on here - I will be replying quickly!Oh, and set a reminder for24rd March at 16:30if you are interested

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 23, 2021, 06:21:59 pm
content: Quote from: hamishmorley on March 23, 2021, 04:44:17 pm

author: hamishmorley
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 23, 2021, 06:31:01 pm
content: Sorry, I meant a large amount of GPIO pins for the size of the board itself. The board is only 19.8mm by 16.6mm.Have edited the original post

author: crossroad
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 23, 2021, 06:37:44 pm
content: How much will it cost? What makes this better than the other SMT mountable boards?

author: hamishmorley
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 23, 2021, 07:01:31 pm
content: For 1 board, the price will be£16 (22USD), however if you buy more than one the price per board is less.I will be including a free breakout board for most rewards as well. I have attached an image of this.What makes Minima special compared to other SMT boards?Number of IO pins for the size of the boardEase of soldering- large pads with a 2.54mm pitch. Often SMT boards have really small pads with small spacing making them difficult to solderNo external components needed- Minima has components which other boards in the same size range lack, such as a crystal, ESD suppressor and reset buttonNo USB- Although this seems counter-intuitive, i've found that when designing small projects for Minima, you can save a lot of space without it

author: woofy
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 23, 2021, 09:36:07 pm
content: In a world where we can get 4 x Pi Pico or 10 x ESP32 for the same price, that's a tough crowded market you're trying to break into.You'll sell some, but think you may struggle to get significant sales.

author: crossroad
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 23, 2021, 10:07:18 pm
content: Quote from: woofy on March 23, 2021, 09:36:07 pmYou can get a Teensy 4.0 for just $20 - I think this needs to be much cheaper to really stand a chance of some adoption. Teensy 4.0 is bigger, sure, but has unimaginable performance compared to most microcontrollersAlso the features seem pretty specific - sacrifice USB for small size but still use 2.54mm pitch connectors? Just wondering, what does the reset button offer for its footprint? If this is arduino supported I don't imagine one would want to reset it all that oftenFurthermore, one of my projects is a bit longer (2x2.54mm to be specific) but only costs 80 cents!I know it's much less performant though, as its based on STM8https://csw.cx/assets/projects/coda/coda-7-pre-asy-close-1.png

author: hamishmorley
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 23, 2021, 11:03:41 pm
content: Thank you for the advice, I can totally see where you are coming from. I have a bit of lee-way with the pricing so I will reduce the pricing before launch tomorrow. It is amazing the cost of ESP32's and RP Pico and is practically impossible to compete in terms of pricing unless the order size is massive!In terms of the reset button, I included it as I have had issues with the native USB on other SAMD21 based boards and often the reset button is useful in recovering the board without re-flashing the bootloader.This is my first Kickstarter and I knew it would be a learning experience, I really appreciate all the comments.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 23, 2021, 11:08:44 pm
content: Quote from: hamishmorley on March 23, 2021, 07:01:31 pmIf it hasn't got a USB connector on it, like most of those similar tiny MCU boards do have. Then how do you envisage users conveniently/quickly/easily programming it, especially when it is "in-circuit". I.e. somewhat permanently soldered into some electronic project ?

author: crossroad
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 23, 2021, 11:13:10 pm
content: Quote from: MK14 on March 23, 2021, 11:08:44 pmJust speculating but a breakout board might be necessary. Looking at the breakout board, the data pins of the micro usb are wired up to something (so not just power)Also to OP - you might want to try specializing with future projects, offering something special and unique instead of "yet another small-ish general purpose microcontroller board."Best of luck with the kickstarter tomorrow!

author: sleemanj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 23, 2021, 11:46:02 pm
content: If you are targetting at Arduino, and it's an intended to be board-on-board design (castellated), IMHO programming support on board is mandatory, be it USB or just easy headers for a specific programmer pinout (which you should also sell or have reliable supplier of to point people to).The entire point of a module like this is to move the common factors to the module to make it easy to drop into a project, programming headers are a common factor.The price is pretty high for a one-project-per-board (again, board-on-board intended so once it's committed to a project there's not really any going back), but that is to be expected for a low volume not made in china design.

author: hamishmorley
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 24, 2021, 04:51:10 pm
content: Quote from: crossroad on March 23, 2021, 11:13:10 pmYes the breakout board has a Micro USB which you can program the board with and provides power.I agree about specializing with future projects and have ideas for more innovative future members to the Minima familyKickstarter is live now and there is a lot more information on there if anyone is interested in taking a look!https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/hamishmorley/minima-accelerate-your-ideas-into-products

author: hamishmorley
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 24, 2021, 04:55:04 pm
content: Quote from: MK14 on March 23, 2021, 11:08:44 pmThe board is aimed for use in custom PCB's so the user can either solder a USB connector onto their board, have some test pads and use pogo pins to program the board, or they can just cut an old USB cable and solder this directly to the USB pads on the board.

author: hamishmorley
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 24, 2021, 05:00:07 pm
content: Quote from: sleemanj on March 23, 2021, 11:46:02 pmThere is Native USB support within the SAMD21 chip and with the pre-installed bootloader you just plug straight into your computer, install the board for Arduino IDE and programSee the pin diagram below or visit my Kickstarter for more information!Regarding price - yes, it is very difficult to produce a low cost product in such a small volume.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 24, 2021, 05:08:24 pm
content: I wouldn't discourage the OP with this project. Sure there already are tons of similar boards. Sure a number of them are cheaper. But variety is good. As long as the project has something a bit different that might appeal to some, then why not really.I haven't seen many similar boards with this MCU, to begin with. So that might interest people willing to work with/evaluate the ATSAMD21.The small size and form factor may also interest some.Now I still have some suggestions, some of which having already been made:If the board is designed to be soldered on another PCB with castellations, going for a smaller pitch, and offering more GPIOs broken out, would probably be a good idea. A pitch of 1.27mm, for instance, would just double the number of pads with the same board size, and is still easy to hand-solder - it's also still large enough that PCB cost should not be a problem. (A 2.54mm pitch would have made more sense if you were using pin headers instead of castellations.)I don't know all the details of your project, but offering different versions of the board with different models of MCU (if they are pin-compatible) could also be a plus. I don't know the ATSAM line well enough yet, but if, for instance, there is a Cortex-M4 available with the same package and pin-compatible, that could complement your offering with something a bit beefier.

author: crossroad
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 24, 2021, 05:23:09 pm
content: I didn't bring this up because I couldn't recall the name, but there's a similar thing by Sean Hodgins - same chip family (I think) and similar formfactorhttps://www.kickstarter.com/projects/idlehandsdev/hcc-mod-ready-to-solder-arduino-module

author: hamishmorley
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 24, 2021, 05:25:17 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on March 24, 2021, 05:08:24 pmThank you - really useful hearing everyone's comments. Yes, I think for future projects 1.27mm pitch would be more suitable - take a look at the NRF52840, I think that's the route I will probably go down. Its based around a Cortex M4 and has Bluetooth/Zigbee

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 24, 2021, 05:27:31 pm
content: Quote from: crossroad on March 24, 2021, 05:23:09 pmIt looks spookily similar indeed... Even the odd reset button is there. The OP's board is just a tiny bit smaller.

author: crossroad
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 24, 2021, 05:32:31 pm
content: Quote from: hamishmorley on March 24, 2021, 05:25:17 pmYou might be able to check out OSHChip for some inspiration or direction if you're planning to go the ultra compact nRF route. I don't own one but I've heard good things about it from my friendshttp://oshchip.org/

author: NorthGuy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 24, 2021, 05:39:10 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on March 24, 2021, 05:08:24 pmI don't like products which appeal to people's laziness.If you want to build something really small, you're not going to waste the space on huge soldering pads and useless reset button, you are not going to increase thickness by mounting an extra PCB on top of yours. IMHO this product don't save space, but wastes it. And what for? Because you're lazy and don't want to solder the IC directly? Then just pay for the board assembly, which will be a fraction of the cost of this product.

author: crossroad
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 24, 2021, 05:51:24 pm
content: OP were you aware of HCC MOD? I feel like there's some parallels between your project and Sean's, the layout of the kickstarter feels a little similar tooIt does look like you used a varient of SAMD21 with more memory thoughhttps://www.kickstarter.com/projects/idlehandsdev/hcc-mod-ready-to-solder-arduino-module

author: hamishmorley
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 24, 2021, 06:39:45 pm
content: I developed the product for myself originally for use in my own projects and then had the idea to launch it on Kickstarter and I came across his when I was writing the Kickstarter and looking at previous projects. He had some really good ways of showing the product so some aspects of the page is inspired by him definitelyI wish I had seen his project before I made the board as would have done something a bit more different!

author: hamishmorley
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 24, 2021, 06:44:57 pm
content: Quote from: crossroad on March 24, 2021, 05:32:31 pmNever seen this before but it looks really cool, I'll have a bit more of a look into the nRF chips but i'm pretty sure its only the 52840 with native usb support

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 25, 2021, 11:42:55 am
content: Quote from: hamishmorley on March 24, 2021, 04:55:04 pmThat is a reasonable point/idea, no onboard USB, allows it to be small/compact, and optimised for installation on someones custom PCB.On the other hand, your board would have had more potential usage options and hence potential customers/market-share. If it had some kind of direct USB connector, or option via PCB pads and/or two different versions, one with and one without a fitted USB connector.I suppose time will tell, if the price point you have set, and it being somewhat/partly USB less (as it stands), matters or not, by the success of your currently active kickstarter campaign.I don't think the price is too unreasonable, although I still think it is on the rather high side, especially for mass/bulk sales. Because, although the Raspberry PI PICO (standard edition), is around $4/£3.60+, its smaller decedents (by other manufactures, but still the RP2040 PICO chip/mcu), are around double or more that price (e.g. $8.50), and some even more specialized versions are much higher priced, still.I.e. Although you can get cheap mcu boards for say $2 (prices seem to have been going up though, in recent times). The price rapidly increases (e.g. doubles, for each improvement. i.e. x2 quality, x4 quality+Arm, x8 price quality+Decent-spec'd-Arm+tiny-size, etc etc), as you go for quality (i.e. NOT cheap Chinese), Arm rather than 8 bit Arduino AVR series, Tiny size, various specialized versions, e.g. Includes wi-fi.Your main selling points seem to be somewhat low power consumption (without having to perform time-consuming and sometimes difficult software optimizations, to use various low power sleep and similar modes), at 10mA (i.e. battery powered and wanting reasonable battery life). Reasonable capabilities being an Arm, and Arduino compatibility. Plus tiny size.

author: Jan Audio
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 25, 2021, 04:41:41 pm
content: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/crowd-funded-projects/

author: hamishmorley
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 25, 2021, 05:07:37 pm
content: Quote from: Jan Audio on March 25, 2021, 04:41:41 pmThanks, I didn't realise there was a separate page for crowd funded projects. I will delete this topic shortly and, move over to there.

author: asmi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 25, 2021, 08:15:21 pm
content: Small friendly advice - avoid using URL shorteners if you can, as many companies block them at the gateway level because these services are often used for phishing and other social engineering attacks.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 25, 2021, 08:21:20 pm
content: Quote from: hamishmorley on March 25, 2021, 05:07:37 pmPlease DON'T start a duplicate thread (I know you just did). It can cause confusion.Best to ask a moderator to simply move this thread there.In this case I've contacted the moderators, to get this one moved over there.