Why are UPS power supplies such junk? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: peter-h
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2024, 07:06:13 pm
content: In the countryside, a UPS is a must.I find they last about 2 years. Not the batteries - they have a poor life probably because they are inside a warm box. The electronics just pack up. Often it won't charge the batteries. Or some other fault.APC are the worst. EATON slightly better. Powerware maybe better on average. I have one huge unit, must be 2000VA, that's been running for about 15 years. The small ones last maybe 3 years.The batteries in them tend to be either no-name or "Yuasa" but the Yuasa-labelled ones must be fake because the cost of real Yuasa ones is close to the cost of the UPSCompared with the above, most IT hardware lasts for many years, especially when left on 24/7. I have a programming station PC here, running DOS 6.22, running since 1995 (on a Data I/O Chiplab programming station). Hard disk, too!

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2024, 08:19:10 pm
content: Look for name brand "inverter/chargers" if you want something that lasts.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2024, 08:22:50 pm
content: APC, Powerware and Eaton are THE name brands. APC and Powerware even more compared to Eaton. The problem is that these brands cut so many corners to drive prices down, their low-end products are rather crappy.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2024, 08:29:29 pm
content: In most of the UK's countryside a UPS is not a necessity. Maybe you should complain more about your power, and get it sorted out. Standards may be falling, but this isn't the US, where frequent power cuts outside big cities seem to be expected.I don't know of any brands of UPS I would consider especially great, but brands like APC aren't as bad as you are describing them. Do you actually need a better UPS, or a power analyser to see what's up with your mains supply?

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2024, 08:33:34 pm
content: Look at the price point of small, cheap UPS units. The cheapest one at my local MicroCenter (CyberPower, not a total no-name) is $54.99 all-in with a 3-year warranty and some lame equipment insurance policy. Not much margin for rich BOM there, is there? I have older, larger APC units that have been working for decades.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2024, 08:40:00 pm
content: The main problem with APC is that their UPSses cook the batteries by having the float voltage way too high (this has been an APC problem for decades). If you mod these to a lower float voltage, the batteries should last a long time.

author: BrianHG
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2024, 08:53:42 pm
content: Some of these power banks offer UPS functionality.They use LiFePO4 and their battery charging circuitry if far superior compared to the old PC UPS garbage.They are also pure sine wave...Larger versions at and above 2kw exist.However, they do not have the auto-PC shut down features. (Though some do have network battery monitoring through WiFi, so I may be wrong...)

author: peter-h
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2024, 08:55:21 pm
content: QuoteA proper "line interactive" UPS should not care.Anyway, the problem is widespread in Sussex. Three 20 sec dropouts daily for last few days.QuoteWishful thinkingQuoteThe mod would be interesting, although I won't touch APC again.

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2024, 09:06:43 pm
content: I've never seen the actual UPS itself fail, its always the batteries. The large APCs are built like tanks. Cheap to buy or find in the scrap heap since the OEM batteries are often very expensive, but easy enough to replace with your own.Do you have a model number or link? I suppose you are talking about the cheap $50 units?

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2024, 09:10:20 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on December 31, 2024, 08:40:00 pmI've actually done that and my first test case just had its batteries fail after less than 3 years.

author: Smokey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2024, 09:17:36 pm
content: I had a ups switch-over contactor wear out. That was after about 8 years or so. The battery measured fine, but every month or so the contactor wouldnt close and that would cut out power to all the stuff. Reset it and it would chug along for about another month until it happened again. One of these days I'll replace that contactor.

author: Simmed
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2024, 09:27:28 pm
content: i found some interesting research article about unplanned outagesUPS failure is #1 on this charton the datasheet, most UPS can only operate up to 40C

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2024, 09:37:42 pm
content: Quote from: Simmed on December 31, 2024, 09:27:28 pmThat will depend very much on your location. In many big cities almost all power outages will be due to the UPS, or something in the installation's own wiring. In some rural locations actual power cuts are so common that even failures of an unreliable model of UPS will be a small percentage of the total.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2024, 09:45:50 pm
content: Quote from: Simmed on December 31, 2024, 09:27:28 pmThat is my experience as well. I have had various UPSses in a distant past and at some point it dawned to me that most outages where caused by the UPS. Either by a problem or needing maintenance. Mains power is very reliable over here. So IMHO a UPS is only worth the hassle if you need to cope with regular power outages. If the only thing that needs to keep running is a computer, using a laptop is probably the easiest route by far.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2024, 09:51:25 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on December 31, 2024, 09:45:50 pmFor many people with a very reliable public power supply their greatest risk of a failure of power to key equipment is their own internal wiring not being adequately protected against disturbance.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 31, 2024, 09:56:41 pm
content: Quote from: peter-h on December 31, 2024, 07:06:13 pmThey are one and the same, Eaton acquired Powerware quite a while ago. I'd say Riello with external battery are probably the best if used in rooms with people around.QuoteIf you see them overpriced in retail, it does not mean they actually cost that much. If by no-name you mean CSB, they're very far from no-name and are about on par with Yuasa and Panasonic.On other hand APC really likes to use shit batteries.

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2024, 10:00:53 pm
content: Quote from: Simmed on December 31, 2024, 09:27:28 pmYes 0 to 40C ambient, seems like a bit of a cop out, though inside a house the temperature would usually be 15-30C. In a data center the temperature will be locked at ~25C.Don't forget also that the lead acid batteries they use degrade massively at high temperature. Compared to 20C at 40C the lifespan of the battery is down to ~25%.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2024, 10:06:51 pm
content: Quote from: BrianHG on December 31, 2024, 08:53:42 pmWatch out for that UPS functionality. Many of those products don't quite give a smooth cut-over, and are honest enough to document that when you read the details.With the falling prices of battery and inverter products for home solar, and home time shifting of consumption (i.e. charging batteries at night on cheap grid power, and use it during the following day, with or without solar panels in the mix) becoming widely available will these displace specific UPS products from all but the smallest requirements?

author: Jackster
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2024, 10:10:58 pm
content: I have a few APC UPS units at work due to us being out in the countryside.The power was going out once a week at night earlier in the year and we are only 9 miles away from the city where I live and have only had a single 10 min power outage in the last 8 years.Not had an issue with the APC units in the 3-4 years I have had them. Got a mix of 1600VA and 2200VA units powering IT equipment and Pick and Place machines.They do run warm. I guess that is because they are always ready to go?https://www.se.com/uk/en/product/BX2200MI/apc-backups-2200va-tower-230v-6x-iec-c13-outlets-avr/Replacement batteries are £50-60 from Amazon.Sounds like OP needs one of those whole house battery storage units that the solar panel installers all use. They have modes to act as a UPS (charge from grid) as well as a solar battery.

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2024, 10:45:49 pm
content: Quote from: Jackster on December 31, 2024, 10:10:58 pmPartly because they are dumping energy into the battery which just becomes heat, float charge.Then if its an "Online" or double conversion UPS, its converting the input to DC then back to AC which results in a lot of losses.If its "line interactive" it shouldn't use much power, I think, unless your voltage is too high or low then it will be running to adjust it into spec.

author: peter-h
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2024, 11:31:56 pm
content: I don't buy the £50 UPSs, no. They are crap.What surprises me is the lack of lithium battery units. With a proper charger circuit they should last a very long time. I've been designing charging circuits since about 1980, since the days of NICD and NIMH cells, even using temp sensors on them to terminate a fast charge, etc. Lithiums need smarter charging. But UPSs seem to have crap charging circuits.We also have a big expensive Riello one which is still running, so that is two units which have worked, while some 20 have been binned in past 15-20 years.Lately I've been getting thesehttps://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B00CTFTM1Cand they kill batteries in 2 years pretty reliably, but so far only 1 or 2 have failed in the circuit.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2024, 11:46:51 pm
content: Quote from: peter-h on December 31, 2024, 11:31:56 pmThe UPS business seems fixated with lead acid batteries. I can't see the solar people staying out of this forever, and they are experienced in making reliable inverters and chargers that treat LiFePO4 batteries with kid gloves.Why are these UPSes killing batteries in as little as 2 years? Even with the garbage charging schemes in 1970s cars, a lead acid battery with a 4 year warranty, that lasted maybe 5 years, was pretty normal.

author: Simmed
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 01, 2025, 12:33:55 am
content: Quote from: peter-h on December 31, 2024, 11:31:56 pmthere are lithium unitsthey catch fire and boomQuote

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 01, 2025, 12:37:42 am
content: Quote from: Simmed on January 01, 2025, 12:33:55 amNo lifepo4 in a metal case is very safe, they are sold just expensive:https://www.cdw.ca/product/tripp-lite-1500va-1440w-ups-smart-lithium-ion-sine-wave-lcd/5659722DIY yourself for a lower cost.

author: BrianHG
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 01, 2025, 01:39:58 am
content: Quote from: thm_w on January 01, 2025, 12:37:42 amUnless that has a tiny battery, that is a reasonable price, especially considering the weak Canadian dollar if you are purchasing abroad...

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 01, 2025, 02:42:22 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on December 31, 2024, 08:22:50 pmI'd have to agree with this. I've never had an APC UPS die on me, either the cheaper consumer Back-UPS or the more expensive enterprise units.It'sbecause oftheir reliability and longevity, I shell out the extra money for an APC unit, over the cheaper ones.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 01, 2025, 03:16:02 am
content: Old APC was very well built, well worth keeping. New APC is a totally different story!

author: JimboJack
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 01, 2025, 04:12:35 am
content: Lead Acid batteries are used due for deep cycle have very large surge current and proven reliable, I've used large deep cycle as used within the Navy, they totally enclosed in steel and bolt together and self stackable, 8 tons and foot print of 60cmX60cm , heavy lol, Land use the best are in forklift trucks single cell , or marine batteries - or last resort for trucks/tractors, they have the reliablity due to thickness of the plates and design, and they can all be recycled. 'lithum lol' not........I've seen switch rooms and battery rooms vaporised with a thick layer of copper against the walls from a lightning strikes, i think lithium will just detonate, a shipping container self disassembled from a tesla with saltwater damage did few weeks ago in california docks.If you really paranoid have a 1:1 transformer on the backend can be used for tapped 'mixed voltages required USA/EU' that will isolate equipment from the UPS with its own earth. Years ago for a Datacentre upgrade. 2*1MVA Emerson UPS's was one approach.you could always go via an autotransformer, the 'name has changed over the years' used in Africa , India, it saturates a transformer then gives a clean mains output and stop massive main spikes, surges, brown-out, lightning sticks except direct hit, can be used in noisey mains areas with heavy machinery and PC's on shop floors. it does have some audiable noisethey brute force but reliable.Personally have 3 UPS's have been modified or upgraded if outside warranty + additional rather large 16Amp rated surge protectors in the front ends on-top.APC 3000VA 1st Gen(resistors/caps changed)APC 2200VA 2nd Gen(Caps+FANS+voltage tweaked->XL version) by addtional fans.Eaton 2200VA Gen5-2 II (still in long warranty)you pays your $$$ and get what you get.

author: peter-h
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 01, 2025, 08:54:27 am
content: It looks like almost nobody is selling LIFEPO4 UPSs in the UK... I wonder why?That Canadian one (above) is really pricey too.Like this Golde Mate oneThe video shows a complete missing cycle in the output. They don't have a big enough capacitor in there... I reckon that is a bit marginal. Also no way to shut down the PC, which is really dumb.These are from the solar power spherehttps://www.amazon.co.uk/ecoflow-river/s?k=ecoflow+river

author: Jackster
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 01, 2025, 09:47:28 am
content: The common consensus is that lithium based batteries breakdown if they are charged over 60-80% so are not good for UPS applications.While lead acid does not break down and in fact is better off being fully charged than nearly empty afaik.

author: peter-h
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 01, 2025, 11:19:44 am
content: I have managed to get decent results with expired (load test failed) aircraft batteries, wired to a UPS which happens to use 24Vhttps://transair.co.uk/aircraft-airfield-equipment/aircraft-maintenance/aircraft-batteries/concorde-rg-series-aircraft-batteries/concorde-battery-rg24-15m-24v-14ahThese are high grade lead acid which last 5-8 years in the aircraft, especially if periodically reconditioned with the CTEK pulsing charger/conditioner. But after that they do years more in a UPS application.Until the UPS itself packs up... I've just dumped an expensive 19" rack mount Powerware unit...I think the poor battery life is partly due to the high ambient / poor ventilation. The last UPS (link above) I modded by drilling huge holes in the case.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 01, 2025, 01:13:20 pm
content: Quote from: BrianHG on December 31, 2024, 08:53:42 pmThat is not always an advantage. I used to have a really fancy Powerware AC-DC-AC online UPS which I killed because it didn't like the rush-in current of a device I plugged into it. The custom IGBT module failed so the whole thing could go straight into the bin. The APC units OTOH use a big transformer fed from a push-pull stage build from a massive amount of paralleled MOSFETs. A relay switches between mains and backup. Every decent piece of equipment should be able to work through a couple of missing mains cycles (look for 'holdover' spec in a PSU datasheet) so a relay is fast enough. It is crude but reliable and effective.Still, it would make sense to look for a different battery chemistry nowadays just for the sake of longevity. But maybe lead acid is the best chemistry to use for a UPS. Either way, it all comes down to float voltage. When using Li-ion based batteries, I'd use a float voltage way below the max spec of the cell.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 01, 2025, 01:27:33 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on January 01, 2025, 01:13:20 pmWound with aluminum wire and solder joints to aluminum falling aparthttps://www.eevblog.com/forum/dodgy-technology/apc-ups-now-with-aluminum-wire/

author: mendip_discovery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 01, 2025, 01:29:15 pm
content: I have a UPS here as I have lost 2 computers to brown outs, voltage goes from ~230 AC to <100V AC. The chips keep running but the fans stop.I have an APC unit and it only needs new batteries every few years. What annoys me is the software and support. Running W11 and I am using software that was updated last over 10 years ago. They did a newer version with a browser based control panel but it wouldn't do the autotests. Then a few months go by and I get a 10-minute power cut. Damn thing beeps and dies. So now back on the old software and new batteries.I ought to get around to getting a battery backup system for the house. A neighbour has just fitted some to his solar panels. But as it's winter the panels are so great but he has been charging up at night from the main grid and selling back to them during the day at 8p a KW/h profit. Not much but a passive income. We had a 16 hour power cut the other week due to some stormy weather.

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 01, 2025, 01:34:52 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on January 01, 2025, 01:13:20 pmIt really isn't; but li-ion seems wasteful too (it offers a lot of cycles which are not needed); nearly every chemistry seems wasteful because typical UPS use sees only a few cycles, and aging is mostly calendar aging. With sealed lead acid, it's the fight between "boiling" the non-replaceable electrolyte, and sulfating for which very accurateand temperature compensatedfloat voltage is important. Li-ion floated at around 50-60% SoC isreallygood, but it's still more expensive than lead acid (though, total cost of ownership is still less because it can last for 10 years).But in many cases, you use UPS in a region with notthatcrappy power quality, so only need to cover for one or two outages during the UPS lifetime. As such I have been playing with the ideas of using some chemistry tailored for low replacement cost, decent calendar life with compromise in cycle life, or even more interestingly, using primary cells (non-rechargeable), which would have added advantage of not needing any sort of charging circuitry.So for example, consider lifetime analysis over 10 years: you have rather expensive and heavy lead acid pack which you have to replace three times (so 3x the cost of the battery), plus charging circuit, plus inverter circuit, plus electricity cost of float charging that lead acid pack all the time (not insignificant). And maybe you see one outage per year. Now think about industrially-priced Alkaline primary cell pack instead (no random Duracell shit, but something engineered to last for 5 years). If the outage is say 30-40% depth of discharge then you would replace this pack 3-4 times during the same 10 years. Not much more often than the lead acid pack.And maybe alkaline would not be the correct chemistry for this purpose, just popped in my mind as an example.

author: AVGresponding
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 01, 2025, 01:49:53 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on January 01, 2025, 01:27:33 pmThe UPS industry is full of high-end manufacturers that no-one outside the industry has heard of. APC and Eaton are some of the few that make all grades from that high end all the way down to the consumer grade garbage you're talking about.Those two are of course, part of global corporations these days, and have "hoovered" up many other brands; I remember Silcon being quirky but good, now part of APC and therefore the Schneider Electric Group. Eaton are part of the Cooper Lighting and Controls group.I also remember (it's several decades since I was in the business) Meissner being quite good SME sized (5kVA-100kVA or so) online units, made in ZA, not sure if they are still going.As has been mentioned already, thermal issues are a big problem with smaller units, especially when they have integrated batteries, and the float voltage of the batteries also being set at the top of the range in order to extract maximum runtime at the expense of battery lifespan.Another thing not yet mentioned, is that lead acid batteries are much easier to recycle than lithium chemistries. Maybe that's due mostly to existing infrastructure; idk enough about the ins and outs of it to say for sure.

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 01, 2025, 01:56:53 pm
content: Regarding older APC SmartUPS models and adjusting the float voltage please seehttp://www.jjoseph.org/notes/apc_smartups_battery_float_voltage(parameter change via serial interface or hardware mod). In my case the SLAs (Panasonic) lasted usually about 5 years. Newer models come with a different interface (Modbus based, proprietary protocol) which isn't supported by any open source software. APC sells a plug-in card with the old interface. Another thing to know is that some lower end SmartUPS models aren't line-interactive types (before that change SmartUPS always implied line-interactive). And of course, they cheap out and it seems that the old SmartUPS models with outlive the current ones.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 01, 2025, 01:57:25 pm
content: Quote from: Simmed on January 01, 2025, 12:33:55 amUsing lithium-ion batteries in a UPS is just plain weird. I believe the original Tesla Walls and their big utility systems did this, as that project was an offshoot of Tesla's car making business, and they were making a lot of lithium-ion batteries. However, lithium-ion make no financial or performance sense for a static installation. LiFePO4 is the obvious choice for a static system. There have been some safety problems with specific models of LiFEPO4 batteries used in specific ways, but they are generally pretty docile.

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 01, 2025, 02:06:45 pm
content: Quote from: AVGresponding on January 01, 2025, 01:49:53 pmIt has nothing to do with "maximizing runtime". Long-term, lead acid needs to stay at 100% state-of-charge, there is no leeway in either "increasing" or "decreasing" usable capacity. It's 100%, or it's dead in no time. Both overcharging and undercharging self-destroy the batteries, just in a different way.Some UPS brands indeed are"known"to use floating voltage a tad on the high side, but then again, anecdotal evidence of reducing that voltage is not very good either (see reply #9 for example).Good lead acid solution needs to keep the batteries at normal room temperature instead of some hot enclosure, plus add temperature sensing and floating voltage compensation.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 01, 2025, 02:10:58 pm
content: Quote from: Siwastaja on January 01, 2025, 02:06:45 pmEven the cheapest UPSes are now controlled by an MCU. Its not clear why they have to keep charging 24 hours a day, when they leak pretty slowly. The charging could be stopped for long periods in a well controlled manner without the battery dropping measurably from 100% charge.

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 01, 2025, 02:15:14 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on January 01, 2025, 02:10:58 pmProbably the same (nontechnical) reason that lead acid is still prevalent: these companies have become completely dysfunctional when it comes toanysort of innovation. All they do is produce the same 1980's-level stuff with manufacturing optimized to produce just that from decade to decade. And customers keep buying because "no one ever got fired by buying APC".

author: peter-h
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 01, 2025, 03:05:46 pm
content: QuoteHowever, this technology has been solved for decades. Power conversion is common in electricity networks, trains, electric vehicles, etc.And synthesising 50Hz 230V AC is very simple, and at say 100kHz the magnetics are nice and small. I was doing that 40 years ago.For some reason UPS manufacturers manage to ignore lessons learnt elsewhere and continue to build crap. Maybe over the 1k price tag the stuff is ok - my experience suggests that may be mostly so.The "hot battery" problem is a separate issue, which seems to be just ignored, but could be solved with a well ventilated battery pack.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 01, 2025, 03:26:36 pm
content: Quote from: Siwastaja on January 01, 2025, 02:06:45 pmWhilst a lot of UPSes are pretty inefficient, and run warm when just waiting for their big moment to come, most of them keep the heat generating part fairly well separated from the battery part. Which brands consistently cook the battery?

author: peter-h
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 01, 2025, 04:30:45 pm
content: I think they all warm the battery up substantially - the £250 Eaton one I linked is elevating it by some 20C. It has a fan but normally it is off, whichisdesirable in most environments.Very true that the float voltage should be temp compensated.

author: Alex Eisenhut
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 01, 2025, 04:45:37 pm
content: If you're just looking to back up small DC powered devices, look for a DC UPS, it's basically a lithium power pack with various outputs like 9 and 12V. I power my modem and router through one. Why go to AC if it's just going to DC anyway?

author: ejeffrey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 01, 2025, 05:17:06 pm
content: Quote from: Siwastaja on January 01, 2025, 01:34:52 pmInteresting. One problem with alkaline batteries is that that at least standard AA cells don't do well at high discharge rate. Commercial desktop UPSes are usually sized for 5-10 minutes at full load. Alkaline batteries might require oversizing the pack enough to cut into any savingins fromusing a cheap chemistry. These days the primary cell chemists that support high rate of discharge probably don't have much cost / kWhr advantage over LiFePO4.It seems like it would have made sense for small UPSes to move to NiMH 15 years ago. They support high discharge rates, are relatively cheap, have good shelf life and are much less annoying than lead acid. But the race to the bottom for unit price just doesn't leave a lot of room for anything else, even if it's cheaper in the long run. These days I'm not sure anything beats lithium chemistries just due to the tremendous production volume for EV applications. UPSes could also use lower grate / QC rejects from EV production since they don't need the a high cycle life.

author: grumpydoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 01, 2025, 05:39:35 pm
content: Quote from: Siwastaja on January 01, 2025, 02:06:45 pmI have a 1500 kva APC unit - current stats arePC : 001,046,1161DATE : 2025-01-01 17:21:09 +0000HOSTNAME : xx.yy.zzVERSION : 3.14.14 (31 May 2016) redhatUPSNAME : APC UPSCABLE : Custom Cable SmartDRIVER : MODBUS UPS DriverUPSMODE : Stand AloneSTARTTIME: 2024-10-24 15:52:25 +0100MODEL : Smart-UPS 1500STATUS : ONLINELINEV : 231.9 VoltsLOADPCT : 16.2 PercentLOADPWR : 162.5 WattsLOADAPNT : 12.2 PercentAPNTPWR : 183.0 VABCHARGE : 100.0 PercentTIMELEFT : 25.0 MinutesMBATTCHG : 5 PercentMINTIMEL : 3 MinutesMAXTIME : 0 SecondsOUTPUTV : 231.9 VoltsDWAKE : 0 SecondsDSHUTD : 0 SecondsLOTRANS : 207.0 VoltsHITRANS : 253.0 VoltsITEMP : 32.2 CBATTV : 26.0 VoltsLINEFREQ : 50.3 HzOUTCURNT : 0.75 AmpsLASTXFER : Automatic or explicit self testNUMXFERS : 6XONBATT : 2024-12-26 20:26:52 +0000TONBATT : 0 SecondsCUMONBATT: 56 SecondsXOFFBATT : 2024-12-26 20:27:02 +0000LASTSTEST: 2024-12-26 20:26:55 +0000SELFTEST : OKSTATFLAG : 0x05000008MANDATE : 2020-10-15SERIALNO : zzzzzzzzzzzzzBATTDATE : 2021-01-13NOMOUTV : 230 VoltsNOMPOWER : 1000 WattsNOMAPNT : 1500 VAFIRMWARE : UPS 04.1 / 00.5END APC : 2025-01-01 17:21:09 +0000A float voltage of 26V(2.166V/cell), if anything, seems on the low side even taking into account the current internal temperature of 32.2oC.APC do have a habit of "calibrating" the expected run time by switching to battery and powering the load until the batteries are nearly discharged - I suspect that reduces the battery life a fair bit.Quote from: Alex Eisenhut on January 01, 2025, 04:45:37 pmYes, I have a couple of these as well. The chief disadvantage is they don't talk back to the computer to indicate state of charge (maaybe this could be hacked in), and can only supply about 18W max - OK for a router or RPi but not much else.

author: mendip_discovery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 01, 2025, 06:30:25 pm
content: @grumpydoc mine does a test every few weeks. Just turn on the battery for 10 seconds or so, I guess it measures the drop after and goes from there. I recently changed my batteries and the old ones seem ok as I use them to power stuff while testing in the shed.

author: pqass
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 01, 2025, 08:57:17 pm
content: I have a cheap APC Back-UPS XS 1300 (780W) going on 15+ years in service.After the replacement of the third pack (about every 3 1/2 years), I swapped the internal 7Ah pack for an external 18Ah pack (seehere).My motivation was to save money by extending the time between pack replacements; not to extend on-battery time.So far, no issues have arisen these last five years on the external pack.I think the key to system longevity and least cost is:a. limit your loads to <50% of the UPS load capacity (I have <150W on a 780W UPS),b. keep on-battery current to <1C (it draws 10A from the 18Ah pack for my 150W load, so <<1C),c. keep pack at room temperature; not baking in a hot enclosure.

author: peter-h
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 01, 2025, 10:29:03 pm
content: That all makes sense to me too.However I still find they tend to pack up. On every one, I changed the batteries first.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 01, 2025, 10:50:14 pm
content: For my workstation, I have a Eaton Ellipse which I've had for years and it works pretty well. I changed the battery only once (after several years, I'd say at least 4 or 5), and it was a quick job. The only downside (which seems pretty common among UPS, at least in this price range) is that there is no indication that the battery is going bad. No early warning. When it is, and there is a power cut, it will just... cut.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 01, 2025, 11:02:10 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on January 01, 2025, 10:50:14 pmSadly, the only real test of a battery's ability to do work is to make it do work, and this does cause problems for traditional UPSes. If you used a solar battery and inverter type system, which can charge the battery or discharge it, all while connected with all attached appliances operating, a battery could be discharged regularly, doing real work, proving it can. Split the battery in two, and you could discharge one, while keeping the other fully charged, in case a supply failure occurs at the wrong moment. That would be hard to do at low cost in a small UPS, but would be a breeze in a larger system where you may have multiple parallel battery chains already.4 or 5 years battery life is a better life than others are saying in this thread, but it still pretty poor for a battery that isn't really being worked very much. Car batteries with 5 year warranties are common, and they are being guaranteed to achieve that life with the abuse they get doing stop start in traffic, and especially starting from cold on a freezing day.

author: AVGresponding
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 01, 2025, 11:09:59 pm
content: Quote from: Siwastaja on January 01, 2025, 02:06:45 pmAre you integrated into a UPS manufacturer's design team? I was, at one point, which is why I know how chargers are often designed and configured.Claiming that reducing float voltage doesn't help is meaningless without the context of knowing the original float charge, and what you intend to reduce it to (granted, the corollary is also true), so to be clear , I favour 2.25-2.3V/cell at 21˚C, derating by maybe 0.01V/cell/2˚C above that. Bear in mind also that it's a practical impossibility to have exactly matched cell voltages across a string.You are correct about temperature regulation and voltage compensation. This is rarely paid more than lip service, save in enterprise grade equipment. Serious attempts at cell balancing aren't something you see in consumer grade lead acid battery systems either.Quote from: grumpydoc on January 01, 2025, 05:39:35 pmThat's a little on the low side, but not horrifically so. 32.2˚C is a bit high, the battery will be happier at <25˚C.Cycling the battery like thatdoesshorten its life. It's a trade-off, I guess. Lead acid batteries have a very non-linear discharge profile, especially in the usually (relatively) high current, (relatively) short duration profile you'd expect in a UPS, and it would be difficult to give an accurate prediction of runtime off just a short loading. Emergency lighting central batteries are normally much easier to predict the behaviour of.

author: nfmax
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 02, 2025, 07:51:17 am
content: What I want from my UPS is a fairly long run time at a fairly low power draw - say 1 hour at 75VA load. This to keep up network router, switches, ONT, CCTV, automation controller, and VoIP phones. Short outages are common here, we had one yesterday for 51 seconds. Longer outages are less common, but we had two in 2024.I use a grossly over-rated, true sine wave UPS from HP I bought as a refurb off eBay. A new set of batteries gave me 45 minutes. After just over two years, it’s down to 35 minutes. It has an internal fan, and it’s clear from its operation the UPS does a maintenance charge every month or so.This followed unsatisfactory experience with a variety of consumer UPSs. These were stepped wave output. An APC model was OK, but others gave an output, at low loads with a fully charged battery, with a peak voltage exceeding safe limits. Even though the RMS voltage was in tolerance.Nobody seems to make anything ’just right’ for this job. A DC UPS won’t cut it, as the router has an internal PSU and the switches and ONT use different DC input voltages. Yet, with the impending shutdown of the PSTN, the demand must be rising

author: AVGresponding
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 02, 2025, 08:11:44 am
content: Quote from: nfmax on January 02, 2025, 07:51:17 amI assume by "maintenance charge" you mean an equalisation charge? This is very much a blunt instrument approach, and a bit of a holdover from the days of wet Plante cell battery strings. SLA's really don't like that much, and doing it monthly seems a bit often, to me.Consumer UPS's are pretty much universally crap; the small enterprise unit you're using is probably as good as you'll get without spending serious coin. You might improve battery life by outboarding them, it's quite common for units like that to have an Anderson connector for that purpose

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 02, 2025, 09:40:59 am
content: Used commercial-quality ones are often available cheaply on ebay, just needing new batteries. These will typically have automatic periodic battery testing to give advanced notice of faiures

author: nfmax
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 02, 2025, 09:43:20 am
content: Yes. I paid about £75, IIRC, for a refurb unit with new batteries.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 02, 2025, 12:06:54 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on January 01, 2025, 11:02:10 pmI don't have actual data but my feeling is that a car battery is grossly oversized for its purpose so it can deteriorate a lot before giving problems. I only changed a few batteries on cars we owned and in such cases I fit the biggest (highest capacity) one which will physically fit and after that I never need to change it again (which means >8 years of use). Other cars ran just fine for such periods without needing a new battery.

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 02, 2025, 01:19:27 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on January 02, 2025, 12:06:54 pmThat's exactly what it is; car starter battery is a perfect example of case where capacity is irrelevant and battery is chosen for other parameters, namely cold cranking current (basically, low ESR), and manufacturing low enough ESRwithoutthe capacity would be difficult, so you get the extra capacity "for free". Car starter battery basically cycles between 95% and 100% SoC, and in some rare cases can go below 80%, for example if you have issues with fuel supply and need to crank for longer.Deterioration unfortunately not only reduces capacity (that would not matter) but also increase ESR (decrease current capability).

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 02, 2025, 01:33:20 pm
content: You can get SLAs optimized for UPS usage which last a bit longer, but are also a bit more expensive. IIRC, Panasonic's UPS SLAs last about 7 years, while the standard ones are fine for up to 5 years.

author: grumpydoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 02, 2025, 02:09:00 pm
content: Quote from: Siwastaja on January 02, 2025, 01:19:27 pmCapacity is (somewhat) more relevant these days because the battery not only has to start the car but keep the electronics powered up when the vehicle is stationary - my car has cameras front & rear and maintains an internet connection when not moving. I'm not totally wild about the latter and would not miss its main utility of locking/unlocking the car with my phone but its not optional on modern vehicles.No one wants to buy a car which will have a flat battery after sitting in an airport car park for a week.

author: grumpydoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 02, 2025, 02:11:37 pm
content: Quote from: nfmax on January 02, 2025, 07:51:17 amSounds like you live near me - unfortunately consumer grade and SOHO units are really only designed to allow graceful shutdown, running for an hour or more is not in their job spec.

author: ejeffrey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 02, 2025, 03:56:57 pm
content: Quote from: nfmax on January 02, 2025, 07:51:17 amQuoteWe have had a lot of scheduled all day power outages as they are replacing a bunch of utility poles and burying other wires that feed our neighborhood. So I have a DIY solution.I have a small APC UPS that lasts 10 minutes and I have an RV true sine wave inverter with a 100 Ah LiFePO4 battery. It runs my fiber ONT, router, switch, and three PoE access points for about 24 hours. When (or before) the power goes out I manually unplug the small UPS and plug it into the inverter. After the power resumes I move the plug back to the wall and manually recharge the large battery. The self discharge rate is so low that I just leave it disconnected after reaching full charge.It's a bit inconvenient but it works and has gotten a fair bit of use. My wife works remotely from home and our scheduled outages are usually during work hours so this lets her work as long as her laptop battery lasts.

author: peter-h
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 02, 2025, 04:30:48 pm
content: NiceI deal with this by having a 3.5kW Briggs & Stratton generator (which gets started up once a year, and has a 15hr petrol tank), but I don't have an automatic seamless switchover facilityThose exist, at serious money levels. OTOH, with a UPS, the several-minute changeover is OK.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 02, 2025, 04:45:49 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on January 02, 2025, 12:06:54 pmMost people with a UPS only drain the battery and recharge it a few times in the UPS's life. I don't see how oversizing would be relevant unless the application cycles the battery a lot. A car battery needs the grunt to turn the starter on a cold day, so its chosen around that. Modern cars with stop-start systems require special grades of battery to tolerate all those starting surges, even though most of those starts are with an already warm engine that will spin up easily.

author: peter-h
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 02, 2025, 05:03:33 pm
content: Also, IME, that auto start feature gets disabled if the battery is not pretty fully charged.A car battery would be good for a UPS because they are big and cheap, but not ideal due to easy acid spillage, and almost no UPSs are 12V. That's why I linked to that 24V aircraft battery.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 02, 2025, 05:13:01 pm
content: Quote from: peter-h on January 02, 2025, 05:03:33 pmModern day car batteries are sealed as well. I don't think I have seen a car battery with plugs you can open to add water in the last 20 years. And you can put two 12V batteries in series to get 24 V (this is typically done in lorries). In the end a 24V battery is just more cells in series.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 02, 2025, 05:41:51 pm
content: Quote from: peter-h on January 02, 2025, 05:03:33 pmStop start only really matters when driving around town. However, my experience is if you only drive around down the software doesn't accept that the car is in a fit state to go into stop start mode, so it is never used.

author: pqass
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 02, 2025, 05:44:30 pm
content: Quote from: peter-h on January 02, 2025, 05:03:33 pmNo, a car battery would NOT be good for UPS duty. You'll kill it after a few cycles.However, look for"marine deep cycle"instead. They come in wet or AGM and are made for high-draw accessories like trolling motors.And don't discharge below 20%.

author: jc101
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 02, 2025, 05:59:14 pm
content: I have a Riello Sentinel Pro UPS in my office/workshop. It's a full double conversion unit, but I run it in ECO mode so it doesn't turn the fan on. USB connection to the NAS for auto shutdown and a network card in it for everything else. Been in there coming up to 5 years now with no issues. It has batteries and some supercaps according to the blurb. I might update to a higher power one at some point when I do a re-org.I have an APC Smart UPS in the house, to keep the FTTP box and router alive. Both are 1500VA, but the Riello was much cheaper than the APC for a higher spec.

author: paul@yahrprobert.com
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 02, 2025, 06:21:06 pm
content: After reading this thread I decided to check my Cyberpower UPS with a 1 year old battery in it. Its already completely dead!So I went shopping and found the Goldenmate line of LiFePO4 UPS's. Amazon has them in the US,a 600 W unit for about $170. Ordered one, we'll see....Update Mar 17 2025: Have had the unit powering my home alarm and monitoring system. Works OK, has about 4 times the run time of the SLA unit, but here's the bad part: the charger inside the unit seems to be incredibly stupid. It charges at a 20 watt level all the time. Probably a transformer, rectifier, and big resistor, no float charging. When I get some ambition I'll open it up and see if I can put in a better charging circuit.

author: m k
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 02, 2025, 06:48:29 pm
content: APC Smart UPS 1000 from 2011, decommissioned from priority use around 2020.Current load around 11%, no issues.Autumn '15 batteries changed summer '16, double something APC.Was practically no batteries since who knows.(quite a priority)'16 set still running, periodic test says good.And that set stays in until failure.

author: VK3DRB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 08, 2025, 05:27:56 am
content: Cheap UPS's can be fabulous.I purposely bought a reasonable quality but relatively dumb low-cost Eaton UPS twenty year ago. Immediately, I took out the crappy Chinese low capacity battery and binned it. I put in a 12V 35Ah deep cycle battery I bought at a hamfest for $9 that the seller had removed from someone's electric wheel chair after 12 months of service. Because the UPS is dumb, it had no firmware to measure the charging current vs. time and trigger an error. Up-time was around 3.2 hours, running a PC and a few monitors. This worked a charm until about a year ago up-time was down to a few minutes which I found out at our last blackout. The battery was cactus, but no-one is complaining - it owed me nothing.So, I bought a new 12V 50Ah AGM battery and it works fabulously. Roughly six hours, running a PC and multiple monitors and other equipment.A UPS is always a good investment, especially in these days when governments don't seem to be managing electricity supplies very well as solar and wind power comes on board.

author: Red Squirrel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2025, 05:44:11 am
content: I find they're all built down to a cost, with their only purpose being so you can properly shut down, and that's it. They all output junky square wave, and are all standby, so in some cases the equipment will actually take a small hit during the transfer. Sadly doesn't really need to be that way, it really wouldn't cost that much more to make them better quality. All the hardware to make it pure sine is already there, just need the software to do the PWM in order to make the sine wave.I've upgraded to a dual conversion UPS using an Eltek rectifier shelf and a Meanwell pure sine inverter. It's still a work in process as I still need to add a bigger battery bank and more inverters, but it's functional. For now it protects my server rack, workstation, fibre ONT, and my TV. Got rid of all the small UPSes. In a setup like this the batteries can last for decades, as you have full control over the float voltage so you can set it to the battery manufacturer's recommended setting. It's usually 2.25 volts per cell but it can vary a little. Also good to do an equalize once in a while, and you can program a schedule for that as well.

author: BradC
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 13, 2025, 11:48:24 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on January 01, 2025, 01:13:20 pmLate to the party and only because I've just replaced the 9 year old batteries on both my APC SmartUPS this week (one was pretty much dead and the other down to just under 5 hours), so just stumbled across this thread looking for something else. I've also spent years reverse engineering the hardware and firmware to get a better understanding of how it does what it does so I can keep these old dogs running and reliable. Hats of to APC for not protecting their 8051's.APC SmartUPS use a relay to disconnect the incoming mains. The inverter is always connected to the load and simply transitions between inverter and battery charger with timing. Of course after a prolonged outage the UPS slews the inverter phase until it's in-sync before bringing the incoming mains back in circuit.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 13, 2025, 12:37:32 pm
content: The issue with UPSes is that they are really pushing lead acid batteries.I have one for my Home Assistant instance. It is rated to 700VA. So I thought it would be OK to put 3D printer on it too, 3D printer pulls max 300W with all heaters and motors going. Has a 6Ah battery in it, so 72Wh. 3D printer pulls 300W. And how long can it run the 3D printer on that battery? A naive calculation would be (72Wh/300W)*60min = 14.4mins, and a 4C discharge should be OK for a short period of time. In reality it runs for only about 45 seconds before dying. It pulls over 50A from the battery with the printer running, and the battery obviously has too much internal resistance, so the voltage collapses to about 10V almost immediately, and by 45 seconds in, battery voltage is at 9V, UPS cuts off. In fact even under this load the output voltage is only 210V AC (true RMS), I suspect the actual waveform is way worse, and I found the power supply in the printer wasn't too happy about this with the 24V output only reading 21-22V. So basically the UPS cannot be reliably used for more than 10 seconds like this.What I had to do in the end was add an automation that just drops the hot bed temperature by 5C if an outage occurs. I haven't had one for a while so no way to test it, but in theory that will take most of the load off for about a minute, if the outage lasts any longer it will just die, but not much I can do about that.Maintaining lead acid cells at 100% all of the time also impacts their lifetime but if you want the maximum runtime you're kind of stuck.If instead the UPS had something like LFP battery, then it would last a lot longer, since the LFP cells could discharge 5C without so much voltage sag, wouldn't heat up, and could be maintained at 100% SoC all the time. But such cells would cost 5x more and so only commercial units use them right now. Fortunately with the price of the cells falling I do expect to see them replacing lead acid in the next 5-10 years in most applications like these. So perhaps cheap UPSes will not suck so bad after that.

author: Coordonnée_chromatique
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 13, 2025, 02:26:48 pm
content: I was very satisfied with an old APC Line-R 1250 (with a real 1250VA transformer 7.2Kg) it was powerfull enough to feed my vaccum cleaner and my computer at the same timeI've bought the new APC Line-R for my mother (APC - LE1200I) weight only 4.2Kg, i've immediately opened it and the isolation transformer was ridicously small, my vaccum cleaner was too power hugry for him.. i returned it.The technology evolution is uncredible, they halved the size of the isolation tranformers on the new models for the same power "rating"Here is theREAL1200VA

author: u666sa
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 13, 2025, 02:38:06 pm
content: Quote from: peter-h on December 31, 2024, 07:06:13 pmFor the same reason toroidal transformer in soldering or hot air station is preferred over switching power supply. Switching power supply won't last long when the power is high.I used to work for a company (in United States) where one of the jobs was to replace damaged APC ups's with none damaged. Then I'd bring the damaged once to office and guys will fix them, and they'd go back onto the shelf. It was never go replace batteries, it was always go swap the unit.

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 13, 2025, 03:16:35 pm
content: Quote from: Coordonnée_chromatique on May 13, 2025, 02:26:48 pmLong time ago APC made good products. But after the takeover by Schneider Electric things went downhill. I'd stay away from their entire SOHO stuff.

author: Coordonnée_chromatique
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 14, 2025, 09:36:27 am
content: Quote from: madires on May 13, 2025, 03:16:35 pmYes.Here the NEW APC 1200 made in China, the EI transfomer have the size of a 300VAHere the OLD APC 1250 made in Mexico, the EI transformer have the size of a 1KVA

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 14, 2025, 09:37:44 am
content: Do transformers fail in UPSes? I don't think I've ever heard of that. It's either the switching transistors or the battery.

author: Coordonnée_chromatique
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 14, 2025, 09:40:04 am
content: Quote from: tom66 on May 14, 2025, 09:37:44 amHow they can fail if they are unable too deliver the requied current...

author: AVGresponding
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 14, 2025, 12:04:37 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on May 14, 2025, 09:37:44 amYes, especially cheap shitty CCA wound ones like you find in modern APCsistr Mr Carlson doing a vid on this; the terminals had been soldered (badly) instead of crimped