Infrared Laser Wireless Charging - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 13, 2017, 10:37:34 am
content: And the bullshit idea of the day award goes to:

author: ConKbot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2017, 10:44:01 am
content: Class 4 laser shining at a potentially dirty solar panel surface, what could go wrong. Whole lotta "yeah it's dangerous, but we havesoftwarecontrolling it so it's safe" going on with ubeam and this.

author: VK3DRB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2017, 12:37:28 pm
content: Yep, it is rubbish. A bigger award goes to the politician who called for funding research into solar powered bicycles. The common theme is these hare-brained ideas come from a class of people with little or no knowledge of physics, chemistry or electronics.When I was a kid, I really wanted to buy a pair of x-ray specs.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2017, 02:00:47 pm
content: Quote from: VK3DRB on July 13, 2017, 12:37:28 pmOf course bicycles are solar powered. Why do you think there so are few on the road when its not a nice sunny day?

author: electr_peter
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 13, 2017, 05:14:53 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on July 13, 2017, 02:00:47 pmOpen sunroofs and cabriolets with open roofs are also common on sunny days. There maybe something profound to be found in this area.

author: Gribo
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2017, 05:37:20 pm
content: Sure, the sun causes them to sprout in your neighbor's garage.

author: Cyberdragon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2017, 07:14:12 pm
content: Quote from: VK3DRB on July 13, 2017, 12:37:28 pmX-ray goggles are a far more feasable idea then this. You could put tiny X-ray tubes and reflection sensors into a pair of large goggles connecting to a seperate unit for power and control. But of course it could only be used in a proper shielded environment such as an analysis lab.I love how the people in the comment are realizing it's dangerous, and he's just calling them dumb hippies. Does he not know that infrared lasers are used to cut and burn things in industrial and medical applications?He's the one who's a dumb hippie. At least people are trying to stop him.

author: buck converter
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2017, 07:41:01 pm
content: More infohttps://www.wi-charge.com/technology/Quote

author: chris_leyson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2017, 07:47:44 pm
content: Class 1, 1M, 2 and 2M are the only safe collimated CW lasers, class 3R and 3M are safe if handled with care and class 4 needs interlocks and key switches and the beam path must be carefully controlled. With IR and UV lasers there is no blink reflex so the exposure time is potentially a lot longer sor with IR expect damage to the iris and cornea.Quoteso definately not safe.Quoteit would need to be a very fast shut down.

author: ConKbot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2017, 01:47:42 am
content: Quote from: chris_leyson on July 14, 2017, 07:47:44 pmForget the very fast shutdown, even the diffuse reflections from a class 4 laser can be dangerous, a fingerprint on the solar panel (lets pretend they have a perfect AR coating on the panel for giggles) would be hazardous given its literally right under what you're looking at. Hopefully if this blind-o-matic makes it into production, FDA puts a nix on any imports.

author: chris_leyson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2017, 02:46:21 am
content: Thanks Conkbot, I had forgotten about diffuse reflections

author: Gary350z
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2017, 03:46:22 am
content: Quote from: VK3DRB on July 13, 2017, 12:37:28 pmSolar energy make plants grow > plants consumed by humans > human powers bicycle.Solar energy make plants grow > plant consumed by animals > animals consumed by humans > human powers bicycle.Solar energy make plants grow > plant turns into fossil fuel > fossil fuel makes electricity > electricity powers bicycle.Solar energy generates electricity > electricity powers bicycle.Technically, all bicycles are solar powered.

author: frozenfrogz
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2017, 08:12:18 am
content: http://spectrum.ieee.org/tech-talk/consumer-electronics/portable-devices/wicharge-promises-phone-charging-by-infrared-laserSooo... is this really viable?I missed Daves initial post, but stumbled upon Wi-charges crappy video today.

author: Jeroen3
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2017, 08:16:11 am
content: Have you not heard of the Cubiio?https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/880456201/cubiio-the-most-compact-laser-engraver

author: frozenfrogz
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2017, 09:50:00 am
content: I have and also posted to this thread

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2017, 11:49:07 pm
content: QuoteThat's in interesting link. The essence of this device is that it puts everythinginsidethe laser:QuoteMaybe that works and maybe it doesn't, but they then say:QuotePerhaps I am being a bit dense, but if it is amplifying light (or anything, come to that) it doesn't matter if you're inside or outside because what leaks out of the far mirror is only what's built up inside anyway. Thus if it's all class 1 then you don't have any power to transfer, and if you have enough power then it ain't class 1 wherever you interact with it.The only part of that which seems reasonable (to someone not versed in laser technology) is the auto-kill by interruption. It seems to me you'd still get the full beam hit but it would be for a jolly short time.I'd be interested if someone with a real clue could comment on that link rather than just diving off the deep end of what most assume the technology to be (which, apparently, it isn't).

author: Beamin
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2017, 02:31:33 am
content: That's a great idea. When its not charging you can use it to cut through metal like a laser cutter.

author: Beamin
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2017, 03:15:40 am
content: I really don't see whats so hard about plugging your phone in or setting it on a mat for inductive charging. Is this that big of a problem that we need to spend millions of dollars and create countless companies to make our phone 0.00001% easier to use?It's a case of inventing a problem to match your solution.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2017, 03:29:40 am
content: Yeah, what's so hard about plugging in the old RJ45. This WiFi malarky is just a solution looking for a problem, right? Hey, all those cell towers are just solutions looking for a problem the landline fixed decades ago. And who needs to read a forum on a tiny screen when you have BFO computer monitor there. Actually, now you mention it, just plain mono text is fine and all that windowy coloured stuff is just fixing a problem no-one's thought of yet.

author: Ampera
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2017, 07:00:07 am
content: Quote from: ConKbot on July 13, 2017, 10:44:01 amCNC machine gun turrets have software controlling them, so they must be safe.

author: Beamin
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2017, 11:52:44 am
content: Quote from: dunkemhigh on August 31, 2017, 03:29:40 amThat's not the same. You have to plug the phone in once every few days usually when you are not using it like when you are in bed. Wifi on the other hand needs to be on all the time. If your phone takes an hour to charge and lasts 48 hours that's about 2% where as the wifi needs to going close to 100%.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2017, 12:38:36 pm
content: Ever tried walking off with your phone charging?My phone isn't modern enough, but I am assured by acquaintances who use 'em that charging pads are a jolly good wheeze and the future. They would struggle to justify a new phone that didn't have the capability. This IR laser thing is just an extension of that - wireless charging BUT without having to leave it in a specific place. And then not move it for a couple of hours.That is, if it worked. Plainly, this one is very unlikely to, but in principle the idea is useful and desirable. Just because you're stuck in the 50s doesn't mean everyone else has to be, and if you can't see any benefits perhaps it's you that's having trouble looking.QuoteActually, you might be surprised. Even desktops seem to use WiFi as the primary connection now. In fact, a client has a perfectly good gigabit network port right next to his PC which has a drop cable connecting it to the PC, yet he complains about poor download performance which I track to his WiFi card being the primary network connection. He shrugs and says "oh well" and that's the end of it. No, I don't understand that either, but it seems to be becoming the norm.

author: ConKbot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2017, 01:07:10 pm
content: Quote from: dunkemhigh on August 30, 2017, 11:49:07 pmNo expert, but indeed that is a bit of a changer from the expected laser+galvo setup. Giving the benefit of the doubt that 2 retroreflectors, free space and a small gain medium work, it would indeed be much safer, as a partial obstruction would be enough to reduce system gain enough to kill any amplification in the cavity, and it would quickly (nanoseconds) extinguish down to the seed laser intensity.I sill have concerns over reflections though, as if you're delivering 2 watts ('watts' of energy) with the receiver mirror being 90% reflective, that's 20W of beam power in the free space cavity. Any diffuse reflections from dirt on the mirrors, if it's not enough to shut off the cavity, will reflect a lot.If they manage to get enough gain in the gain medium to drop the reflectivity of the RX end mirror, which would mean lower power in the cavity, I'd move it from "Lol holy shit that's a bad idea" to "hmmm, doesn't seem quite right, prove it."

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2017, 01:11:13 pm
content: Thanks for your considered opinion

author: StillTrying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2017, 10:26:21 pm
content: Quote from: frozenfrogz on August 30, 2017, 08:12:18 am"A laser is usually described as a device that bounces light between a pair of mirrors on either end of a gain medium, which amplifies the light with each successive pass. Usually one of the mirrors inside this cavity is partially transparent allowing some of the light to exit as a laser beam.Wi-Charge's ingenious idea was to take this cavity, which is typically a closed device, and turn it into an "open unit" where one of the mirrors is located for example in a light fixture on the ceiling and the other one on the receiving device. The semiconductor gain medium is located in the transmitter and provides the photons that are harvested by the photovoltaic cell at the receiver."In my expert considered opinion, that bit at least is a load of cobblers.

author: LaserSteve
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2017, 10:49:08 pm
content: As a senior laser technician for a major university, and as a former field service engineer for a maker of solid state lasers, as well as a former laser show guy, I have twenty or more years experience aligning and modifying laser cavities. Often aligning them in places other then nice, stable, labs.(For those who want to know more about that qualification, HENE, HECAD, ION, N2, Xenon, OPSL, CVL, OPA, OPO, YAG, MOPA, Three Wave, Nano, Femto and more, and 32 Joules of 532 in 700 Picoseconds)I had a good laugh with this one. Setting down in New Zealand , in a deep cave, is a helium-neon ring laser gyro cavity that is a square ten meters on a side. Its mirrors are selected to generously help correct with diffraction losses and to correct for astigmatism as the beam folds. However it has to run with the beam paths in a vacuum to avoid diffractive effects from air currents, which would quickly stop lasing. It runs at a few hundred microwatts, so there goes power transfer with that one. It does a wonderful job measuring relativistic effects as the earth turns, and is a mighty fine micro-tremor detector too...Long lasers are a holy grail, as generally, the longer the laser cavity is, the lower the divergence is, to a limit that arises on how small the beam diameter can get and also extract power from the gain medium, and the other lower limit on beam size is tied to diffraction (even in a vacuum) and scales based on wavelength. There is a vary simple equation based on mirror radius and spacing for a two meter cavity that spells all this out.At some point in time you hit a physical limit on how shallow the radius of the cavity mirrors are. While I have personally used mirrors with a 10 meter radius, anything longer then that is essentially a flat. The ten meter radius in the simple case means a practical distance limit of just under four and a half meters. So as the distance from the laser medium to the mirrors change, the mirror radius has to change. Yes, in some cases, a flat mirror flat mirror pair is used, but they are nearly impossible to align and are known for very, very, low power extraction from the laser medium. The need for a changing mirror radius for maximal power extraction is a given.Yes, you can have intracavity lenses to compensate, but as the lens focus moves it drastically would change the beam path, taking you right out of the active region. Because the sides of your moving, curved, lenses are inherently a strong prism. So now you need a six axis positioner to move the compensating lens to correct for its own distortion as you zoom focus. The mechanics of this task, let alone the automation, would be amazing.There are some tricks with prisms and retro reflectors to fold the cavity back onto itself for "self-alignment" but none of them would even begin to fit on a phone, let alone work over more then say three meters,With a one to three meter laser cavity, I'm usually having to have the strongly curved mirrors aligned to one milli-radian or better. To get there I have to make the laser cavity out of very low expansion, or expansion compensated materials. Usually I'm adjusting eighty pitch screws to get enough angular resolution to peak the alignment. Then, even if we're lasing, we have to transverse the beam path across the beam path in the lasing medium to find the maximal power path, which usually takes a human about thirty minutes, and a automated laser alignment system about two to ten. There are a few scientific and industrial lasers that "Auto-Align" and "Auto Peak" with large arrays of stepper motors. Generally for them to work, a Human pre-aligns the output mirror until they can achieve capture. I've never seen a system, outside of a laser production line in the factory, that can align without a human pre-aligning one end."Magical" techniques such as optical phase conjunction have a third order dependence on incident power, so there goes any self aligning nonlinear crystal resonators, as they would need hundreds of millijoules of coherent light just to start.. (Translation, NO STAR TREK style methodology , the scattered light from the dust in the air or the "probe " beam hitting a wall would be hazardous before it even started power transfer. ) The other side effect of optical phase conjunction is it would try to start lasing with any nearby polished metal object, such as a fork or metallic watchband.The box on the phone would be even bigger then what you would need for uBeam's ultrasound. The vibration that occurs with a kitchen table or restaurant table would constantly force the system horribly out of alignment, and the energy to constantly servo the motor plus the fine adjust piezo would be enormous. Laying your fist palm down, gently, anywhere near the phone is going to constantly force a re-align. Did I mention that long lasers are ran on vibration dampers, often active dampers, or air tables, that decouple vibration. Very long classical lasers are mounted in tunnels or caves, or on huge concrete pads, usually on the ground floor, just to avoid any bending in the structure that would result in detuning. This is why the switch to fiber lasers have proven to be the needed power breakthrough for making effective laser weapons.I'm also awaiting the magical silicon cell that would not saturate well below the intensity per unit area provided by such a tight beam. After all, I usually have three ceramic scattering attenuator disks on a four percent beam pickoff for a five watt laser, to keep the beam from basically shorting the detection cell out with saturation issues. The other two methods of laser beam power conversion typically used are a piezo detector for high energy pulsed beams, and a Peltier with a black adsorbing disk in reverse for continuous wave beams. The "Power meter" detectors, aka thermopiles, need huge heat passive heat sinks to function.I have not even started on the amount of dust in the air in a non-lab environment.ALL the lasers I have ever worked on have enclosed beam paths to negate power loss and beam distortion from dust, oxygen, and moisture in the air.NO, not in this century, and the hardware requirements would be amazingly expensive, even if you used ND:YAG or CO2 lasing mediums, Direct diode lasing mediums would be out of the question due to diffractive effects from the small chip size.I'm not even going to consider self mode locking, self q-switching, regulatory, eye safety, mode spacing, and interferometric effects.Please don't cite long interferometers like LIGO etc as a counter argument, those are an entirely different hill of beans or beams, as they are not self lasing to begin with, and run in a vacuum.If any one does not believe me, I'll point you to a link to free cavity modeling software, where you can add up to five optical elements and it solves the Jones matrices for stability.Yeah, it would wink out with little power transfer if blocked completely, but until the beam is sufficiently blocked to have the losses exceed the gain in the system, something like a bare wrist or face might get burned by grazing incidence illumination.A slight layer of dust on the intra-cavity optics will quickly stop lasing, and a fingerprint on any optic would be fatal to the process. No one is going to hand out USP or Spectroscopy grade acetone to clean the mirrors every five minutes.NO, NO, and NO, and if it could work, the real time computing needed to track the mirrors would burn any power transfer to shreds.For 13 Million Dollars I will "attempt" to build you a working long distance laser cavity in a clean room for your Angel demo, and then arrange to flee the country the next day..Steve

author: Beamin
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2017, 03:02:33 am
content: So a dusty room with dusty air finger prints and vibrations and unknown position and unprotected eye balls would make it not work?You just have to believe! Get out you wallet and with just a little more funding it will work. The carrot is so close but every time we take a step with VC money it's just out of reach. We can get the carrot before the cliff. Why? Because it just feels like a good idea!This is becoming a thing: psudo Baseless technology that's too complex for investors to understand and too impractical for scientists to understand, eating up money then after the VC cow runs out of milk you just throw your hands up and say "Sorry. Can't. Tried. Oops. BTW remember that disclaimer you signed? Yea well you're not getting your money back. Sorry not sorry."

author: ConKbot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 22, 2017, 04:45:48 pm
content: Great post LaserSteve, good to hear about real practicalities.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 22, 2017, 05:10:58 pm
content: Thanks for the insight, LaserSteve.QuoteI don't dispute anything you've said. Neither do I expect to see this laser project come to any kind of life in the near or middle distance. However, there are some points I'd like to note:QuoteI would imagine that the intent with these is somewhat different to this project. For instance, if you want to burn holes in something with a laser your design priorities, and feasibility studies, won't be the same as if you activelydon'twant to do that.Further, obtaining peak output would be nice but isn't necessarily that important. It can be 'good enough' in the same way that, say, solar panels weren't awfully efficient but were good enough for the purpose. Imagine if not getting at least 90% of the suns footfall put the kibosh on panels when someone first came up with the idea. In the context of this project, would it really matter if it only managed (figure off the top of my head) 20% transfer? Some people might see the cost of that as reasonable for the feature, and it would likely get better with later iterations as copycat producers went to work.QuoteAh, that's great insight which I bet no-one involved in the project has consideredQuoteIndeed, but isn't that because you want control of how it happens? That is, you don't want a stuttering laser measuring stuff because it might be in an off trough just as you want to read off the measurement or whatever. For power transfer, you don't really care if it's on and off so long as it's on enough to do some transfer, whenever that is.Perhaps looked at another way (and clearly hypothetical), if you kind of oscillated the mirror so the returning beams waved back and forth across the transmitter, so long as the beam was striking the mirror for long enough to get the laser going, wouldn't that be enough? It would be really very pants for normal laser purposes, but as the equivalent of wiping two bare wire ends against each other it would get some juice across.

author: Beamin
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 23, 2017, 03:25:14 pm
content: Quote from: dunkemhigh on September 22, 2017, 05:10:58 pmI think you are giving this company way too much credit. Its another plastic from thin air/ubeam/theranos edision/solar roadways/water seere. An idea that someone came up with everyone told them it wouldn't work but instead of listening they sunk their life savings into it and other people's money now they can't get out. They are just keeping it going as long as they can trying to save face for a few more years pay then the company goes out of business. The owners know its not going to work. Look at solar road ways: from the construction is obvious the CEO has just given up just making something to keep the investor money coming a few more months. There is no way in hell that guy didn't realize that parking lots and streets are full of cars during the day making even a 100% efficiency product unuseable. Plus we don't have glass that would work as a road, it just doesn't exist. No way in hell I would trust my safety to driving on glass in the rain no matter what bumps and groves it has in it. One day hopefully the SEC will pass a law that shuts down this shit before it gets out of hand and people get screwed.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 23, 2017, 04:24:12 pm
content: QuoteI don't, because I'm not expecting to see anything come of this. I am asking these questions to satisfy my own curiosity and understanding, and tidy up the loose ends in my mind. The entire idea might be complete rubbish, but normally there is still some (possibly unrelated) info nugget to be mined.There is also the small point that dissing a project for an erroneous reason can lead to confusion and perpetuate it.

author: nidlaX
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 31, 2018, 04:40:25 am
content: They sent a demo kit to Linux Tech Tips:Here's their latest patent:https://patents.google.com/patent/US20170373543A1/en?inventor=Ortal+AlpertMaybe this one is a "see it to believe it" kind of deal? Or maybe a "last thing you'll ever see" type of affair?

author: Beamin
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2018, 04:51:56 pm
content: No facebook account can't see it. I refuse to use face book and I have never been on twitter.Is there a plugin that allows you to see facebook without having an account or do you just have to make a fake account and worry about it stealing your cookies? Facebook cares about your privacy.

author: Beamin
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2018, 05:01:14 pm
content: Quote from: Beamin on August 31, 2017, 03:15:40 amSo funny I don't remember making this post but after I read it I went to click the "thank" button and realized it was my post. I guess I think like myself.

author: StillTrying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2018, 05:26:06 pm
content: Quote from: Beamin on June 03, 2018, 04:51:56 pmThere's another thread on this.www. youtube.com / watch?v=YeNXRD8eziAhttps://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/wi-charge-infrared-wireless-charging/

author: Beamin
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2018, 07:35:46 pm
content: 3 watts is safe? When I was younger I had a friend with a blue laser LED have no idea how powerful but it was like the one on cody's lab and he would burn anything that got in the beam for a second. A piece of paper with a black dot would burn the dot then start burning the edges. Black plastic would melt and smoke instantly. Maybe 1 watt? He said you couldn't buy it in the US and he got it out of something like a bluray, something common.I know IR is longer but three watts? You won't blink for IR and that would be like having a laser scalpel hit your eyes for a split second. I could see little kids staring up at it to try and figure out what it was. Clearance from the FDA? I know the FDA is corrupt as hell but still. HOW IS THIS SAFE/LEGAL?How would you trick the laser into staying on? or have reflective surfaces on your phone like glittery make up that fills my phone's edges.

author: BrianHG
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2018, 08:54:12 pm
content: Read more here:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/dodgy-technology/gimmicky-as-hell-remote-ir-charger/

author: JohnnyMalaria
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2018, 09:00:21 pm
content: They've gone in the wrong direction. X-rays, baby, yeah!

author: BrianHG
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2018, 12:40:26 am
content: Quote from: JohnnyMalaria on June 03, 2018, 09:00:21 pmNah, go for the top, GAMMA rays. Generated by a micro Kugelblitz black hole.

author: David Chamberlain
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2018, 03:16:22 am
content: Quote from: buck converter on July 14, 2017, 07:41:01 pmThis is so cool! I thought <marquee> died years ago. I'm going to write all my posts like this from now on.

author: Cyberdragon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2018, 05:38:26 am
content: Quote from: David Chamberlain on June 04, 2018, 03:16:22 amThen there'sGIANT TEXTNow back to your normal thread...

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 04, 2018, 05:44:42 am
content: Quote from: Beamin on June 03, 2018, 07:35:46 pmSee the other thread.At absolute best it's 27% efficient, more likely well under 20%, so the "3W" unit must beat leasta 15W laser.

author: Cyberdragon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2018, 05:45:53 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on June 04, 2018, 05:44:42 amWould't that burn itself? It's plastic! (Isn't it?)