Does anyone have a fully non-mechanical instrument cluster in their car? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: e100
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2019, 04:42:56 pm
content: If so, is it as readable as the old mechanical stepper motor displays with physical moving needles?

author: maginnovision
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2019, 05:11:29 pm
content: Yes

author: Miyuki
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2019, 05:23:26 pm
content: Like this 80s one ?

author: e100
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2019, 05:24:56 pm
content: Quote from: maginnovision on October 23, 2019, 05:11:29 pmAny idea why old stepper motor tech is still being used in so many cars?Is it just that the auto industry runs several years behind the rest of the world?

author: e100
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2019, 05:28:01 pm
content: Quote from: Miyuki on October 23, 2019, 05:23:26 pmI wasn't aware that this had been done before. I was thinking of the displays used in some modern cars.

author: AG6QR
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2019, 05:30:17 pm
content: My temperature and fuel gauges are mechanical, but everything else is electronic, mostly on an LCD raster display. Perfectly readable under all lighting conditions, whether or not I'm wearing polarized sunglasses. 2017 Honda Civic, which I've owned for two years.

author: maginnovision
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2019, 05:44:38 pm
content: For the price it's reliable. If you want old go back to no instrumentation, or cable driven instruments. I think you'll find that what is commonly used is typically reliable, and cheap. Adding a display isn't just adding a display as it requires you to also connect to a bus and make sure the power supply is perfectly happy with an automotive electrical system. Has to be ok with high and low(freezing) temperatures. I can get an older instrument cluster with real needles for a couple hundred. A fully digital instrument cluster is usually more than a thousand(or more) dollars. Often times they'll need to be coded(or fully programmed) as well.

author: maginnovision
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2019, 05:46:38 pm
content: Quote from: AG6QR on October 23, 2019, 05:30:17 pmI think those have mechanical tachometers also?

author: PA0PBZ
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2019, 05:54:15 pm
content: Peugeot 3008, perfect:

author: shakalnokturn
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2019, 06:05:13 pm
content: Quote from: e100 on October 23, 2019, 04:42:56 pmDo you have a link to a stepper motor automotive cluster indicator?I have seen several of these Sin/Cos type around:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_core_gaugeBi-metal actuated moving needle type on much older cars.As for clusters with no moving parts at all, I haven't come across any so far but haven't really looked for them either.

author: e100
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2019, 06:17:58 pm
content: Quote from: shakalnokturn on October 23, 2019, 06:05:13 pmstepper teardownSearch for "cluster stepper" on aliexpress for the individual motors.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2019, 06:38:29 pm
content: Quote from: e100 on October 23, 2019, 05:24:56 pmI'm not so sure those actually are steppers. Old tech is still used because it works and you don't need to fix what isn't broken. It's a super high contrast display that won't fade and dead reliable. We'll see in about two decades how electronic displays fare but it'd surprise me if they turn out to be as reliable.

author: AG6QR
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2019, 06:42:57 pm
content: Quote from: maginnovision on October 23, 2019, 05:46:38 pmThe tach is software selectable, it can be turned on and off via the menus. When it is turned on, it is an analog-style moving needle, but it is drawn electronically on the same computer screen that holds the speedometer and the other electronic displays.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2019, 06:45:06 pm
content: What's an instrument cluster ? (Tesla driver)

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2019, 06:48:07 pm
content: Quote from: free_electron on October 23, 2019, 06:45:06 pmSomething which doesn't require updates or calling home to the mothership.

author: Neilm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2019, 06:51:58 pm
content: Quote from: free_electron on October 23, 2019, 06:45:06 pmBeat me to it (1 month into Model 3 ownership)

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2019, 06:55:58 pm
content: My partner's Prius "cluster" if you can call it that is just a large VFD along a TFT in the dash. I don't like it personally, I strongly prefer the real, physical analog guages (electrically driven) in my car. I hate touchscreens and want tactile switches that I can operate without taking my eyes off the road to look at them.The cars that look like they have an ipad glued to the dash are the stupidest fad ever, could never bring myself to buy one with that.

author: ConKbot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2019, 07:04:49 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on October 23, 2019, 06:48:07 pmNow now, real time safety of life control systems that aren't air gapped,what's the worst that could happen?

author: Bassman59
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2019, 07:08:40 pm
content: Quote from: e100 on October 23, 2019, 04:42:56 pmYes, 2005 Honda S2000. Eminently readable.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2019, 07:18:41 pm
content: Car makers don't seem to have any real problems keeping LCD displays very readable. The instrument cluster is usually in a little well, just like a mechanical cluster. It shouldn't be a surprise that what works well for isolating mechanical displays from the sun also does a good job for an LCD display. Perhaps more surprising is that the centre LCD displays don't have any big problems with readability, even the ones placed high up on the dash without any shading around them.Lots of LCD instrument clusters allow a selection of skins to be selected, and some of those skins are funky enough to be a lot harder to read than the sane ones.

author: jonovid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2019, 07:26:38 pm
content: just for curiosity, whats the law say about DIY or aftermarket instrument clusters in cars?like can I add a "CAN bus tesla style touch screen monitor? or batmobile gauges.

author: janoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2019, 08:00:36 pm
content: Quote from: Neilm on October 23, 2019, 06:51:58 pmSeriously, give me a normal dash (whether "steam gauges" or displays) over that enormous "TV" in the middle that Tesla Model 3 has. That's just plain ugly unless you want to actually use it as a TV.

author: Sal Ammoniac
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2019, 08:03:29 pm
content: My Tesla's instrument display consists of a single 15" LCD panel that displays everything: speed, status, maps, etc. When the car is parked you can even play games (Centipede, Asteroids, etc.) on the display or watch YouTube or NetFlix videos.I greatly prefer a digital display of speed rather than the old fashioned analog dial displays.

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2019, 08:19:20 pm
content: You won't see purely digital (numeric) critical gauges in aviation/aerospace as an example.Dial gauges are superior where you need fast reaction to the value and the trend, and sunlight readability.Segmented bar graphs have such low resolution that trends are hard to make out.I like stepper gauges but it's just cost savings drawing it on the Infotainment screen.

author: rdl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2019, 08:20:58 pm
content: I don't get out much at night, but from what I've seen a lot of vehicles have rather garish, and very bright, blueish-white displays. This seems like a bad idea to me with regards to night-adapted vision, though I guess most driving is done in well lit areas these days.

author: Sal Ammoniac
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2019, 08:27:38 pm
content: Quote from: rdl on October 23, 2019, 08:20:58 pmThat's easy to fix. Just add an ambient light sensor and adjust the brightness and/or background of the display to match conditions. Tesla displays do that--bright white background during the day and black background during twilight/night.

author: John B
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2019, 08:41:31 pm
content: The fastest uptake of numerical displays on vehicles seemed to be on motorcycles. I remember arguments between the two camps who thought digital or analogue displays were superior. There's some middle ground where it's very common on motorcycles to have a numeric speed, but a dial for a tacho. Digital firmly won out over analogue for speed gauges.Every time I drive a car, I'm reminded of how much space is wasted on the speedometer dial.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2019, 08:53:46 pm
content: Quote from: rdl on October 23, 2019, 08:20:58 pmMaybe some cars are badly designed, but the garish lighting is usually the owner being an idiot with the settings. Cars generally adapt the LCD brightness pretty well to the light level, and often switch the format of the display to a night mode when the headlights are turned on, to further improve its appearance in the dark.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2019, 09:03:36 pm
content: Digital speed displays were cool in the mid 80s when they were a novelty but there's a reason why almost all cars went back to analog dials. An analog dial can be read at a glance and makes it easy to see changes and rate of change without having to mentally process the numbers. Plus they just look a lot more classy. I'm sure LCD displays will win out in the end though because they're so much cheaper, and they fit right in with the smartphone addicted masses.

author: maginnovision
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2019, 09:32:52 pm
content: I personally like the typical dial gauges. My 1995 BMW M3 is currently my favorite car I own. Dial gauges for temp, fuel, speedometer, and tachometer. Has a small computer in the center that displays various data though. Motorcycles have been using digital more regularly but not very nice ones typically. I know the newer BMW R bikes use full color digital displays that people generally like but plenty still don't want them. Yamaha guys all seem to love them though. My bike has dial gauges and I prefer them but if instead say the F850R came out with only a digital dash... I'd still get it.I think it's just about how well they work, readability aside. If it doesn't update quickly most people won't like it. The model 3 is really ugly at least s and x have a typical dash. I already dislike looking at the radio. I've always found HUDs to be the worst option though. I've never seen one of those I liked

author: Sal Ammoniac
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2019, 09:34:59 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on October 23, 2019, 09:03:36 pmTo each his own. My last four cars have all had digital speed displays and I won't go back to analog. When looking for a new car, a digital display is a must-have for me.To do digital speed displays properly requires a well-chosen smoothing function. Displaying the instantaneous raw speed just doesn't cut it. The smoothing function is the equivalent of the lag in a mechanical analog display.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2019, 09:49:52 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on October 23, 2019, 09:03:36 pmEarly digital speed displays were very much uncool, because they were so badly implemented. That is why they quickly disappeared. The world has moved on.Quote from: james_s on October 23, 2019, 09:03:36 pmMost cars with electromechanical analogue displays now have a small LCD for status information, which can also show the speed digitally. I've never driven a car with both digital and analogue speed displays where I take any notice of the analogue display.Quote from: james_s on October 23, 2019, 09:03:36 pmEventually they will be cheaper, but right now the base models of many cars still use electromechanical displays, and only the deluxe models have a full LCD display.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2019, 09:55:59 pm
content: The digital displays are cheaper to produce, it's just an added bonus that car makers have figured out they can charge extra for the cheaper product because it's new and looks fancy.Not that it really matters, hasn't been a car made since the late 90s, maybe early 2000's that has interested me in the least. Throughout the first half of my life it seemed like cars were getting better and more refined every year, then they started to really go off the deep end with styling and have gotten uglier and uglier every year. Now cars all look the same, like a used bar of soap bloated beyond belief with silly gadgets I don't need or want.I suppose at some point I'll be forced to buy some newer piece of shit blob-mobile as a beater to get me around so I can keep a classic in the garage for when I want to actually enjoy myself.

author: John B
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2019, 10:04:46 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on October 23, 2019, 09:03:36 pmJust as per my post, these are the exact points that I remember floating around >15 years ago in motorcycle groups. Digital still won out.There are many odd design decisions in cars all made with the purpose of appealing to the intended market. Decisions which seem to mainly focus on aesthetics rather than function. Like putting an analogue clock in expensive cars, mainly to appeal to the 60+ year old buyers.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2019, 10:30:00 pm
content: I'm a lot younger than 60 and I've always thought analog clocks look classy. I was growing up just around the time digital stuff was getting very cheap in the 80s-90s so digital stuff usually looks cheap to me.

author: John B
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2019, 10:41:57 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on October 23, 2019, 10:30:00 pmThat's probably the crux of the issue. "Looks classy" = parting with more cash for a new vehicle.I think you only need to look at vehicle brochures and advertising to see that good mechanical engineering and function aren't selling points. It's about electronic toys, social image, status, lifestyle and other things that make me want to throw up in my mouth.Personally I like quite simple industrial or military looking gauges, but I realise I'm not the target demographic for automotive makers. Having said that, it makes me wonder if the F-35 fighter has a 20 second Lockheed Martin splash screen on startup

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2019, 11:10:12 pm
content: I'm under the impression digital instrument clusters are the norm nowadays.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2019, 01:41:09 am
content: Quote from: janoc on October 23, 2019, 08:00:36 pmThe model 3 display is just ridiculous.What were they thinking???I prefer having a HUD with my speed, and having a button under my thumb if I want to adjust the temperature, or accept a call on the phone. So I dont risk driving into a ditch every time I want to adjust the temperature. Or change the volume on the stereo.I have a prius 3, display like the previous post. Regular LCD nowadays is just embarrassing. Whatsup with a digital analog dials. Like really, is it better to have a tiny pointer to on a dial, ending with 250KMPH where you typically use 1/4 of the full dial, instead of two big numbers telling you: 56. On your windscreen.https://www.carthrottle.com/post/hiding-basic-car-controls-in-a-touchscreen-is-stupid-and-distracting/QuoteSo every time you see a button disappear, think of one thing. Just one thing.Cost saving. They just made something more inconvenient for you, just to save 2 EUR. And that is bullshit.

author: Sal Ammoniac
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2019, 02:25:18 am
content: Quote from: NANDBlog on October 24, 2019, 01:41:09 amYou can accept a call without using the touchscreen. Same with the volume of the stereo.

author: e100
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2019, 02:46:10 am
content: I find it fascinating that dial gauge displays on modern aircraft glass displays look so different from their automotive counterparts.https://thumbs.dreamstime.com/z/boeing-instrument-panel-cockpit-displays-er-system-display-showing-primary-engine-indications-n-egt-compressed-secondary-68102307.jpghttps://www.helis.com/database/pics/news/2017/md920_idu-680.jpghttps://www.cap-ny153.org/Glass%20Cockpit%20Dynon%20with%20Engine.jpg

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2019, 06:29:44 am
content: Quote from: Sal Ammoniac on October 24, 2019, 02:25:18 amIMO one shouldn't be accepting a call while driving, it should be illegal to do so. They have passed silly token laws that mandate hands free despite numerous studies showing that hands free makes no difference, it's being engaged in a phone call that is distracting. I know I sure can't pay attention to doing something else while I'm on the phone and judging by what I see on the road these days neither can most other people. Distracted driving is an epidemic in densely populated areas.

author: lordium
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2019, 06:54:38 am
content: I have a new VW with full display. My impression so far is that it's no issue at all.Both in strong daylight and night time the display is never hard to read or distracting.You can also choose many different display modes, but just leave at the fake dials with the area in between for what ever is going on right now (usually distance to car in front).Not really sure why I use the dials mode, because I never look at them. I just keep speed with traffic in front anyway (city driving) and cruise control when on highway.(picture is not from my car, but looks the same)

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2019, 11:05:12 am
content: Quote from: james_s on October 23, 2019, 09:55:59 pmCars all look the same because they're shaped by the same requirements. Decades ago we didn't care about passenger or pedestrian safety or mileage. When you design for those three plus a few others you inevitably end up with very similar solutions. Another factor is that due to the increased cost of designing a car you need to service a larger market which inevitably leads to common denominator designs. Exterior size and costs are tuned to service as many customers as possible.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2019, 11:06:02 am
content: Quote from: e100 on October 24, 2019, 02:46:10 amI have to ask, what's your agenda? Are you contemplating buying a car with an electronic panel or manufacturer shares?

author: Rerouter
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2019, 11:24:01 am
content: Repair this stuff for a living, even have about 5 old full VFD based instrument clusters back at the shop, there brightness failed badly after only 12 years (especially if left in the sun) and there power supply was quite the broadband noise source once the caps began to failStepper motor movements are fine so long as they use some level of micro-stepping, to hide the stair step effect (really apparent on some bus speedo's, e.g. 0.5km steps)Sine / Cos drivers (When calibrated and balanced!) are the nicest, as you can pick the small trends in it very easily,LCD speedo's are a little tiresome, as you have to have that 0.5 second pause to process the number every time you look down, which is longer than "Does pointer sit at right mark"It may have improved now with the entire panel essentially being an LCD on modern cars, (I don't see these things until they start failing), but back in the led segment type speedo's, it was a pain, And making a LCD panel that will survive up to 15 years in full daylight is hard.As to making your own cluster, in general the baseline you have to meet for driving around while your instrument cluster is being repaired is:You must be able to tell your road speed, and for the speed to not read slower than the vehicles road speed, (so yes you can use a GPS as a speedo in this case)You must be able to tell if your fuel tank is low, or your engine temp too high (prevents people being stuck on the side of the road)As for what you need to do to make it pass registration, Make it meet the same functions as your existing panel, so many older cars have panels retrofitted from other vehicles, and they pass rego. Including multiple times where we have supplied a bunch of individual gauges and warning lights in a laser cut panel to replace the original.

author: CJay
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2019, 11:25:13 am
content: Quote from: PA0PBZ on October 23, 2019, 05:54:15 pmTest drove one of those, very nice indeed, works very well but perhaps a little too 'stylised' for my tastes

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2019, 12:01:03 pm
content: I have a fully mechanical one.I don't like the "whole thing is one display" because if whatever drives it breaks, you lose all instruments instead of only the one. That might be why aircraft have separate mechanical instruments even if only as backup.Quote from: jonovid on October 23, 2019, 07:26:38 pmIt depends on where you are, but in general there is a minimum amount of instruments that the regulations insist on (I'd guess that it includes at least a speedometer.)

author: e100
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2019, 12:18:57 pm
content: Quote from: jonovid on October 23, 2019, 07:26:38 pmI don't know about legal requirements, but I do know of someone in Aus who lowered the suspension in their car without telling their insurance company. After the car was involved in an accident the insurance company pointed to a clause in the policy that said that the car must not be modified outside of factory specs and therefore the policy was void.It wouldn't surprise me if they used a similar tactic if they found a customised cluster, particularly since it interfaces with the CAN bus and therefore has the potential to cause chaos if done improperly.

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2019, 12:26:14 pm
content: I have to admit that I prefer the part mechanical part TFT cluster of the pre-facelift Niro to the full TFT Facelift model...Maybe that's because I have the Pre-facelift though!

author: Rerouter
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2019, 12:26:57 pm
content: there is the cheat there, OBD connector for interfacing and power, and hold your display in place with something like velcro, technically you haven't modified the vehicle.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2019, 12:37:20 pm
content: Quote from: Gyro on October 24, 2019, 12:26:14 pmThat's horrid. It took me a literal 12 seconds to find the indicated speed.

author: e100
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2019, 12:45:16 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on October 24, 2019, 11:06:02 amNo, but I do have a deep interest in the usability of systems, the human/machine interface and how accidents can be caused or avoided. As another example of the diversity look at the ubiquitous industrial DIN panel meters. You won't find that style of meter used in cars or aircraft, and if you tried to use a car style cluster in an industrial setting you would be out of a job.In the automotive world I find it odd that the purely numeric speed indicators manage to get through the regulatory process as these types of displays whilst being more precise take longer to read and therefore take your eyes off the road for longer. The people implementing these systems are well aware of that.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2019, 02:33:00 pm
content: Quote from: amyk on October 24, 2019, 12:01:03 pmMost new cars are almost drive by wire. If your power steering breaks, you practically cannot turn anymore.BTW an electronics system, without moving parts will be approximately infinitely more reliable than any moving parts. Unless it is made by Peugeot, or some German engineer, who designed it to fail for a trip to a service.Quote from: Sal Ammoniac on October 24, 2019, 02:25:18 amWow amazing. How about air conditioning. Hidden in a menu.

author: Sal Ammoniac
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2019, 04:48:00 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on October 24, 2019, 06:29:44 amYou shouldn't listen to music while driving or hold a conversation with a passenger--those activities can be distracting too.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2019, 04:55:17 pm
content: Quote from: amyk on October 24, 2019, 12:01:03 pmI agree with this. Of course, this has nothing to do with the instruments being mechanical or not. You could still have fully digital instruments in your car, but one per function, and able to work independently. This is not very likely to happen though, because obviously regulatory matters are not as stringent as for aircrafts, so this wouldn't be strictly required. And if it's not, you can be sure that no manufacturer will do it (except maybe in the luxury cars industry.) Instruments in a car, for the most part, are not safety-critical. Knowing your current speed or RPM is NOT safety-critical. It's a convenience, and may help avoiding getting fined, but very rarely the absence of instruments in a car will lead to a catastrophic accident (unless you are really a bad driver!)The monolithic digital instruments block in recent cars are not just looking modern. They also cost a lot less, which is the main driving factor.

author: e100
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2019, 05:44:34 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on October 24, 2019, 04:55:17 pmI think the majority of pedestrians who have to cross busy roads would disagree with that bit about speed not being safety critical.

author: PA0PBZ
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2019, 05:47:44 pm
content: Quote from: NANDBlog on October 24, 2019, 02:33:00 pmNo, voice control: "Temperature 20"

author: schmitt trigger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2019, 06:07:21 pm
content: Pretty soon all vehicles will be similar to KITT, from the 1980s "Knight Rider" TV show.Display Porn! All that we are missing is some Nixie Tubes.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2019, 06:13:16 pm
content: Quote from: e100 on October 24, 2019, 05:44:34 pmUh huh. If you need to look at your tachometer to avoid pedestrians on busy roads, I think you have a serious problem, and fully qualify for the bad driver syndrome I was mentioning above.

author: Neilm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2019, 06:45:58 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on October 23, 2019, 08:53:46 pmMy last car had a couple of green lights from the dash that didn't dim as I adjusted the lights. When the display went to night mode (which I couldn't control) these lights dimmed from the day mode to the night mode. However, if I turned the display brightness down they remained at the same brightness - basically dazzling me. If I am driving near / accross Salisbury plain I like my cabin dim and those lights wreaked my night vision. The excuse was the were "safety critical" lights that couldn't be dimmed. Yes - having my front parking sensors or headlights on are safety critical.With the Tesla Model 3 I now have I didn't have a problem with the display being too bright.

author: e100
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2019, 07:35:42 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on October 24, 2019, 06:13:16 pmIt's the pedestrians avoiding the cars, not the other way around. Remember it's a game of consequences, the driver knows that in the event of a collision with a pedestrian that they are protected by a metal box, a seat belt and an airbag. The pedestrian on the other hand knows they are going to die.This makes the pedestrian highly motivated to make the right decision. The car driver is less motivated, which is why they are staring at their mobile phone, fiddling with the radio, or asleep at the wheel.Before crossing a road the pedestrian calculates how many seconds they have based on the perceived speed of the traffic.Once they start crossing it is literally a matter of life and death. If a faster than expected vehicle comes along then they run out of time and die. The car driver will say "I didn't see them".Personally I am so looking forward to a time when cars are driven by computers because people just aren't up to the job.

author: ve7xen
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2019, 09:44:46 pm
content: Quote from: e100 on October 24, 2019, 12:45:16 pmThis aspect is really quite interesting to me too, since my subjective experience differs from it so much. My vehicle has both the traditional mechanical round dials, and the centre digital speed display. I find myself almost never consulting the the mechanical dial anymore, it seems to take more focus to read and is harder to track in peripheral vision.Not sure if this is a result of its poor resolution (it goes up to 250km/h or something absurd when driving speed is like 1/3 of that) or perhaps the size of the scale markings vs. the much larger characters of the digital display. It definitely doesn't feel easier or quicker to read, though, and intuitively that sort of makes sense - you need to determine both the position of the dial between scale markers, then read the associated markings, and then interpolate.Not really related, but I've toyed with the idea of trying to hack one of the auxiliary displays in my vehicle with an IMU and display a simulated PFD.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2019, 10:44:58 pm
content: Quote from: ve7xen on October 24, 2019, 09:44:46 pmSpot on. In a country like the UK, where speed cameras are spread like dust across the landscape, there are numerous streets where you really need to control your speed tightly. Its not enough to be around 30MPH in a 30MPH zone. You need to be pretty sure you aren't exceeding the limit at all. Adaptive cruise is a huge boon in these places. If you are driving without cruise turned on you need to check your speed very frequently, and the the rather squashed analogue gauges aren't ideal for checking down to the last mile per hour. Nice big numbers are much quicker to read in these circumstances. I never look at the analogue speed gauge when there are digits available.

author: SparkyFX
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2019, 11:16:09 pm
content: Quote from: e100 on October 23, 2019, 05:24:56 pmSimple, cheap, readable, everyone knows where to look, no learning required on the side of the user, no configurable position, therefore no issues with customers not finding where to look - NO SOFTWARE ISSUES (well, sort of), that might redraw that area or whatever.Quoteexperience with broken LCD displays from the infotainment screens, the well known tab connections and zebra strips.the readability and update rate at low temperatures to stay legally correctthe need to heat these displays to be spec´d at -40 to 85 °C ambient tempwear through vibrationThis isn´t a gadget sitting in your well tempered, humidity-stable living room.

author: Ranayna
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2019, 07:31:33 am
content: I don't have a picture, but the VW Golf (Sportsvan, I think) that I occasionally drive, has the classic mechanical instruments, but in addition to that, a multifunction display smack in the middle. Generally I have set this to speed when I drive, and I virtually never look at the actual dial.On a side note, on my main car, an Opel Corsa, I had it happen that after I started the car and I began to drive, that none of the instruments worked, except for the fuel gaugeThe car drives fine when that happens... After turning the car off and back on, everything works again. Happened twice now in four years. No idea if it is a dodgy connection or a software glitch.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2019, 08:05:27 am
content: Quote from: coppice on October 24, 2019, 10:44:58 pmBoth the resolution of analogue gages and the ability to spot trends on them is better which makes them more suitable for adhering to speed limits.

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2019, 09:41:20 am
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on October 25, 2019, 08:05:27 amBoth is best. I have a dial, but leave the centre multifunction part of the cluster set to digital speed readout.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2019, 09:50:10 am
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on October 25, 2019, 08:05:27 amLol no.Quotehttps://www.researchgate.net/publication/311193191_Analogue_versus_Digital_Speedometer_Effects_on_Distraction_and_Usability_for_Truck_DrivingBy the looks of it, most tasks digital is better, speed change is practically on-par. I think it can easily be improved by adding an arrow, indicating the change. Digital instrument cluster is clearly better, with an extra analogue scale.

author: Ysjoelfir
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2019, 10:00:49 am
content: Quote from: NANDBlog on October 25, 2019, 09:50:10 amI absolutely can't relate to those results. I drive very much per year and I WAY prefer my old, completely analog Volvo 940 instrument cluster over any digital display. To check the Speed I just glance down for a few msecs and decide that the needle is about right. back up with the vision to see where I'm driving.EVERYTIME I drive a car with a full digital HUD It takes me literaly seconds to get which speed I'm going at, not to speek of the distraction those flicking numbers in my peripheral vision are causing, compared to the smooth movement of an analog needle. I also tend to completely ignore any other information displayed there as it is bothersome to read for me. analog meters instead - no problem. I even added more of those to my volvo to get (un)neccessary information like battery voltage and charging current...Please note: This is just me telling you my personal impression. It may well be that many people whose eyes are glued to their smartphone 24/7 aren't comfortable using analog gauges anymore, so those results could be absolutely different for those people. But for me? I just hate digital displays in cars. If I ever need to get a new (private) car I doubt it will be one with a full digital HUD.

author: Rerouter
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2019, 10:11:52 am
content: Depends on the country, in Australia, most Chinese import vehicles are allowed to have -1% +40% of reading on there speedo's,Just about every greatwall ute out there is factory calibrated for the option group that would give the lowest reading combined with the largest tyres you can fit on it, and doesn't care if that is not the normal, so you end up with them reading 100kmph while travelling closer to 78kmphMost european vehicles however will read within the margin you give, and have weird hacky things to accomplish this, e.g. most of them have 3 calibration factors, the one used by the ECU, the one used for the odometer, and the one used for the speedo pointer, so what you end up with is the OBD speed and odometer are better than 2% most times, and the speed pointer is out by about 8kmph at 100kmph,

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2019, 10:41:16 am
content: Fully tft clusters are fine as long as the layout has been well designed - a problem is thet designers can start adding unnecessary wank-factor.e.g. on my Kona - the speedo in normal mode is an analogue dial, but in sport or eco modes, they replace the dial with other not-very-useful data like power or how much regen on the last braking period and replace the analogue dial speed indication with digits in the middle, which I find much less intuitive to read. there is literally no point in doing this and it's really annoying.

author: Urs42
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 25, 2019, 11:12:40 am
content: A CityEl from 1992

author: dzseki
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2019, 11:26:06 am
content: This ain't no crappy LCD, this is CRT, oh yeah...Aston Martin Lagonda Series 3

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2019, 11:36:43 am
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on October 25, 2019, 08:05:27 amThe difference between 31 and 32 MPH on my analogue gauge is less than 1mm. Do you really think people can quickly assess a spacings like that as they glance down? To read my digital gauge I only have to register a couple of 3cm high digits. The analogue dial may be good for trends, but for following a precise speed to lock yourself to the speed limit, they are very unsatisfactory. I would really like to see some statistics for accident rates on roads with speed cameras. I suspect people are looking away from the road to check their speed far more often than they otherwise would, which has to be bad for safety.

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2019, 12:00:21 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on October 25, 2019, 11:36:43 amFortunately, speed limits almost always correspond to the graduations of the dial, so the "am I at the right speed" is basically "is the pointer on the mark", far easier to see and more useful than the numerical value.

author: Sal Ammoniac
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2019, 02:48:41 pm
content: Quote from: Ysjoelfir on October 25, 2019, 10:00:49 amI'm the exact opposite. I WAY prefer an all-digital display and dislike antique analog displays.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2019, 04:54:39 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on October 25, 2019, 11:36:43 amIs a cop there going to give you a ticket for going 32 in a 30 zone? That would never happen here, unless they were really looking for an excuse to pull you over. Generally as long as you're not more than 5 over you won't get bothered so this is not really an issue. It's the old analog vs digital multimeter debate, digital is more precise, analog is typically better for relative and rate of change measurements. I don't mind digital speed indications but I prefer analog, not everyone does and that's fine.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2019, 05:22:30 pm
content: Quote from: Ysjoelfir on October 25, 2019, 10:00:49 amThe Volvo 940 is a wonderful car, glad to see a few of them still on the road. My daily driver is a 740 Turbo wagon which is a very close relative to the 940, practically identical, I'm not even sure why they made two entirely different series. I'm constantly amazed at its versatility, I have hauled lumber, furniture, fullsized standup arcade games, so many boxes of stuff that on one occasion a friend remarked that it was like unloading a clown car with what seemed like an impossible number of boxes just kept coming out. I've hauled 3 passengers along with myself and enough camping gear for all of us in comfort, the interior is cavernous with the squared off shape being ideal for maximizing internal space relative to exterior size. With big windows and narrow pillars it offers superb visibility all around, it has more ground clearance than a lot of the fake SUVs (crossovers) that are all the rage these days, fuel economy is fairly comparable to a modern crossover, the real world safety record is legendary and on top of all that it drives like a mild sports car and has a really unique and classic look. I'd buy a dozen more of them if I had somewhere to keep them. Anyway on the original topic I find the instrument cluster to be very nice, the cluster in the 850 my mom has is even nicer.Whenever I drive a modern car I'm always struck by how horrible the visibility is, windows are tiny, pillars are enormous, the absurdly high beltlines make me feel like I'm peering out through tiny gun slits in an armored tank and they make the car look like an old geezer with his pants pulled up to his armpits. The poor visibility is downright dangerous, blind spots big enough to fit a whole car in, I don't know how anyone can consider that safe. Yes cars have increased the survivability of accidents but I would prefer to increase the chances of avoiding the accident in the first place by having good visibility. Trying to make up for all these shortcomings we have all these nagging electronic gadgets and band-aids that make the driving experience almost intolerable and people have this idea of a "clean" dash layout which means all the controls I want to use being hidden away, buried in menus on touchscreens. Another peeve of mine is the fad of having gigantic rims with tiny little rubber band tires which not only looks stupid IMO but results in a harsh and unpleasant ride, they are fragile, easily damaged and expensive. I don't drive on a race track, I drive on real world roads that are full of potholes, bumps and debris.If you want examples of good design, look at aircraft, they are for the most part immune to styling fads.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2019, 05:25:52 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on October 24, 2019, 11:05:12 amThe stifling over-regulation of the auto industry is certainly part of it, but I think the latter is responsible for most of the current mess. This article sums it up pretty well, I think he hit the nail on the head:https://medium.com/swlh/the-zombie-mobile-b03932ac971dAnd car companies wonder why millennials by and large aren't into cars, I wouldn't be into cars either if all I had to choose from was the bland homogenized shitboxes on the market today.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2019, 05:29:14 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on October 25, 2019, 04:54:39 pmThere are no rules for this. There have been reported discussions in the last couple of years among UK police officers, which some saying everyone even 1MPH over the limit should be prosecuted, while others says that's just persecuting the public and not contributing to road safety. You just don't know what might happen if you don't stick solidly to the limit. The way the instruments in a car are now required to be calibrated means you should be able to rely on the gauge not under reporting your speed, unless there is a fault.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2019, 05:43:13 pm
content: I mean technically the limit is the limit and it would be prudent to go a bit under. In the real world this is likely to trigger road rage from the guy behind you though. Either way I don't think analog or digital makes any difference here, I've never seen a speed limit like 31 MPH, it's always a round number that falls squarely on one of the major divisions on a speedometer scale. It's very easy to tell at a glance if you're going exactly 30 MPH or just a hair under or over because there's a big bold line on the scale at 25, 30, 35, etc.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2019, 06:07:10 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on October 25, 2019, 04:54:39 pmA cope nope, but automated radars, yes! I dunno if you have them over there - if not, consider yourself lucky. In Europe, we are just invaded with those.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2019, 08:31:13 pm
content: Quote from: amyk on October 25, 2019, 12:00:21 pmNot to mention calibration isn't exact pretty much by design. If going a millimetre over the mark gets you a ticket you were cutting it too close anyway. And again seeing the trend allows you to be more precise than whole numbers are flipping back and forth.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2019, 08:38:54 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on October 25, 2019, 04:54:39 pmNumerical displays aren't more precise. They reduce the resolution significantly as they almost always round off to whole numbers.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2019, 08:52:58 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on October 23, 2019, 06:38:29 pmWe don't have to speculate, given that the first (production) cars with digital dashboards are nowover 40 years old! (The very first was in 1976.) I'm not a vintage car guy at all, so I actually don't know how they've held up, but in any event, this is an entirely knowable bit of information. Even if we just restrict it to graphical LCDs, we still already have cars over 20 years old.Quote from: floobydust on October 23, 2019, 08:19:20 pmI assume you're talking about the layout, not the technology? Cuz all-digital cockpits ("glass cockpits") have been around for a long time now. They just use graphical color displays to draw dials now.

author: SparkyFX
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2019, 09:33:48 pm
content: For UN/ECE harmonized vehicles, there is adefined lead of at least 4 km/h (Annex 3) and not more than 10% + 4 km/hthe speedometer has to have to accommodate tire wear and other conditions (tire pressure, temperature, whatnot).And cops do have to apply tolerances in their measurements to your favor. Some attorneys make a living from questioning the measurement protocols and such (e.g. was the laser gun properly in a straight line to the street, all filled out properly).

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2019, 09:45:28 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on October 25, 2019, 08:52:58 pmThe digital displays in older cars were often dreadfully unreliable but those can't really be compared to what's fitted to cars nowadays. They're a world apart. Maybe aircraft could provide some data but I'm fairly sure those displays are manufactured to different standards.

author: rawrs
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2019, 03:58:41 am
content: '04 Holden Calais. I have the option of both, so, you tell me.P.S. I had a passenger take the photo (albeit having to get very friendly to do so), because a friend who's equally nuts about cars thought I was bullshitting when I said my car basically idles at any speed. One of these days I'll get a GoPro so I can look nuts behind the wheel a bit more easily.May also be worth pointing out that even modern semi-mechanical dashes are completely electrical, the cluster has a single loom and that's it. I don't believe there are even any signal wires anymore, it all goes through the ECU (and/or gearbox/mechatronics module, if you have one (GMs etc generally don't), since ultimately VSS comes from the gearbox and is used for a surprising amount of things) and/or body module first, the cluster just receives a single chunk of data that is sent out to every module in the car. Basically it's a multicast, a packet is sent out once and every module on the bus can choose to either do something with it or drop it. This *significantly* reduces loom complexity and wire count. You can have two or four (low/high speed CAN/ALDL/GMLAN/whatever) signal wires shared between every single module in the car, and that's it.There's barely half a dozen wires in these clusters, from memory it's: high speed ALDL (think RS-232 but at a different signalling voltage) Tx/Rx, 5v, maybe 12v, and ground(s) - that's it. So much better than all the 90s pre-OBD crap. Even LED brightness is a command nowadays, as a pure guess (I haven't really looked into it), I think the BCM has an input that can be pulled high or low, or simply has button inputs, and this translates to a command that gets sent to relevant modules. No flakey resistors to burn out. I really have no idea why people think modern cars are complicated. They're screamingly easy when everything is broken down into little chunks.I'm sure I'm preaching to the choir, though, and I'm sure I'm wrong about something. CANbus/OBD (which my car shouldn't run but kinda sorta yeah maybe does anyway) is a topic of significant interest to me, because it meshes two of my favourite things - cars and silicon. It's a fun little rabbit hole to tunnel down, and this is coming from someone who has no business liking old cars (like 50's old) as much as I do.I'll shut up now, sorry for the waffle, and the edits. Can you tell this stuff interests me? Please do correct anything I have to say, because I'm a massive noob both electronically and (somewhat) mechanically, and both are things I want to learn more about, just don't really know how, beyond bumblefucking around in the garage.

author: Ysjoelfir
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2019, 06:41:49 am
content: Quote from: rawrs on October 30, 2019, 03:58:41 amI have to say that this would be an ideal instrument cluster. It combines the quick check functionality of an analog meter with the accuracy of a digital one. One can choose what to look at.Why isn't this more common?

author: Rerouter
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2019, 07:06:40 am
content: Rawrs, Its a Holden VY/VZ, it has an analog speed and RPM input, and is mostly self contained, Its the other way around, it actually stores a bunch of the ECU settings in the cluster, e.g. the lighting curves, if the daytime running lights are on etc,There method at the time was they could reconfigure the ECU between low series and high series options by swapping the cluster at the dealership, but it never really became a thing in Aus,I actually have most of the programming options mapped out for that cluster. if you want to turn on / off things, or alter the redline settings.

author: mac.6
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2019, 04:09:55 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on October 25, 2019, 08:05:27 amWhat trend? speed or tachy trend is driven by accelerator, if you're unable to detect your foot trend then the problem is not the cockpit.My car have both analog style display and digital speedometer, I tend to look only at the digital one.Instrument cluster software is interesting (some of my coworker work on it). It requires safety inspected code as when an alert is received, it must be displayed whatever the condition (ie, tire pressure alert, ECU error, ABS/ESP kick-in...). So they have to use fancy os like green hills and so on, while maintaining constant 30/60fps on the display...

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2019, 06:36:16 pm
content: Quote from: mac.6 on October 30, 2019, 04:09:55 pmIt seems you're suggesting your foot position corresponds to a certain speed while in reality it's obviously a feedback loop. Having trend data added to the speed readout improves loop stability. An analogue style display shows you whether you're accelerating and how fast. The resolution of a numerical display is much lower and it's essentially impossible to maintain a regular speed without alternating between two or more numbers as the rounded number obfuscates any trend or detail. It's possible to change speed without changing the readout.