Try before you buy? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: BillyO
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2022, 12:20:19 am
content: Despite how much research we do on-line, or how many data sheets and user manuals we read before we buy a piece of test equipment we often find that, once it's in our hands, there is something about it we discover we don't like.Wouldn't it be great to try it before we make the final decision?Enter Amazon. So, would it be moral to buy stuff on Amazon, keep it for a a couple of weeks and then return it, then do this for all the competing devices until we find the one we like the best, then buy it permanently?I don't think Amazon would have an issue with this as they guarantee satisfaction.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2022, 12:35:49 am
content: They will absolutely have an issue if you do that all the time. Eventually they will flag your account and start limiting your returns. You also need to have a good reason for returns. If device as described and functional, but you don't like it, it is not a good reason.I also would not say that this is ethical, since money does not come out of Amazon, it comes out of the seller's pocket. Seller can't resell the equipment as new anymore.It is far better to find a place that rents out equipment and rent whatever you need first. This may be hard in general, since not all equipment is available that way, especially low end stuff.

author: dorkshoei
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2022, 12:36:58 am
content: Quote from: BillyO on December 27, 2022, 12:20:19 amNo clue if Amazon "guarantees satisfaction" and if they do it's not subject to misuse.Like any advanced retailer Amazon maintains metrics about your buying and return habits. Lots of documented reports of Amazon customers having their accounts closed due to excessive returns. I'm also sure cost of item is a factor (and TE isn't cheap) as once returned it has to go be resold via Amazon Marketplace.Their algorithms are obviously proprietary but my sense has always been that because my return:purchase ratio is low (1:100 maybe) they cut me some slack in the borderline cases where they could play hardass.Your return options would be "inaccurate website description", "no longer needed" or "item defective or doesn't work".Moral is subjective. I wouldn't do what you're suggesting even if it was consequence free (which per above I don't think it is). Bottom line, there is no substitute for doing research before buying.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2022, 12:41:28 am
content: Quote from: BillyO on December 27, 2022, 12:20:19 amIf it's "sold by Amazon" then I don't worry about it nearly as much as if it's sold by some independent seller who's been seduced by the Amazon sales pitch and is now losing money on expensive returns.I have a problem with people who do this but complain loudly if any packagestheyreceive appear to have been previously opened.

author: Thunderer
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2022, 12:45:19 am
content: If you afford to rent before buying, it is a solution. But you may end up paying a lot in the end.Best is, if you are a company or buy equipment from time to time (not one entry level scope every 12 years), is to devellop a relationship with a dealer/distributor/manufacturer. Most of the time, you will find a representative that goes above and beyond for a customer, and specially for one enthusiastic and competent in the field. Remember, kindness and honesty goes a long way.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2022, 12:46:36 am
content: Quote from: BillyO on December 27, 2022, 12:20:19 amAll test gear has "quirks". None is perfect.

author: BillyO
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2022, 12:51:58 am
content: Yes, I do mean "Sold by Amazon" products.

author: BillyO
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2022, 12:53:18 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on December 27, 2022, 12:46:36 amOf course. But some I can live with and some you can live with that I can't (remember our discussion on the Fluke 101?) ..

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2022, 12:58:47 am
content: In the uk we got the consumer contracts regulations,which amongst other thingsQuoteThat includes basic delivery charges but you may have to pay for the return.

author: dorkshoei
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2022, 01:01:22 am
content: Quote from: themadhippy on December 27, 2022, 12:58:47 am1. The guy is in Canada, not the UK.2. Do these regulations commit the retailer to continue to sell to you? I doubt it.

author: BillyO
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2022, 01:04:10 am
content: Quote from: dorkshoei on December 27, 2022, 12:54:49 amOver the years I have retuned at least that many items for various (always serious) reasons, but not all at or above $500.So first, this is a hypothetical question. I'm not trying t start a trend. Second, 10 -15? Hmm, I was thinking like 2 or maybe 3 a year. After all I don't buy new test equipment that often (this year I purchased 5 new items, but this was litrally a once in a lifetime year) and usually one is trying to decide between 2 or 3 items that compete in the same price/spec/functionality range..

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2022, 01:09:52 am
content: It is obviously fine to have random returns over multiple years. If you have 2-3 returns of test equipment a year, it might be enough.In any case, I don't see how this is ethical and I would not blame Amazon for limiting or closing the account. This is the risk you take.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2022, 01:11:58 am
content: Quoteso why are americans replying i?for all we know canada could have similar rules and the mention of it rings a bell leading them to search them out.And any retailer has the right to refuse your customer,of course things might be different in the land of serve me or i'll sue,

author: dorkshoei
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2022, 01:12:11 am
content: Quote from: BillyO on December 27, 2022, 01:04:10 amI have no idea how many you were talking about. You didn't say.I just purchased and returned a KVM switch from Amazon. It had a spectacularly bad feature (it disconnects and reconnects the mouse/keyboard each time you switch hosts. It was not anything I could have ever ascertained from reading the manual or product description (I did both). So I returned it without giving it a second thought.I think if you're knowingly trying to decide between 2 or 3 items then you should find a different way to evaluate them than buy/return.

author: dorkshoei
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2022, 01:14:49 am
content: Quote from: themadhippy on December 27, 2022, 01:11:58 amyou're the only person quoting country specific regulations. everyone else is just commenting that Amazon has policies about excessive returns. noone has said you can't return an item once purchased, just that you may not be in a position to keep buying if your returns are excessive.

author: baldurn
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2022, 01:24:32 am
content: A more honest way is to resell the equipment you do not like. The resale value is usually very good for the known brands.

author: BillyO
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2022, 01:27:48 am
content: Quote from: ataradov on December 27, 2022, 01:09:52 amThis is an interesting. You find in immoral, now if most others find it immoral too, then it becomes unethical.Every time I buy something from Amazon, they go out of their way to tell me how long I have to return it. When I do make a return, they allow for some pretty trivial reasons in their list or reasons and they have an "Other" category. Nonetheless, they never question your final reasoning. The process is automated and the return is authorized immediately. Here in Canada you get your money back the minute the return postage is scanned by the post office and the return postage is always prepaid.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2022, 01:34:52 am
content: It works the same way in the US up to the point where you exceed the limits of their algorithm for "Other" and get banned.Part of the reason is that most if not all of the returned stuff gets trashed or resold as bulk junk. I'm not sure if they do something different for high priced items, but generally a return is a full price loss to them.It is not that easy to find test equipment that is sold by amazon anyway. And if you start doing this to stuff that is not sold by amazon, it hurts the seller as well.

author: BillyO
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2022, 01:36:30 am
content: Quote from: baldurn on December 27, 2022, 01:24:32 amSure, provided it's not faulty or otherwise unusable.Would anyone have an objection to returning a FNIRSI or Hantek DSO2X1X scope? I doubt it. Of course if one followed the posts on this forum, why would one even buy either, but that's a moot point. Not everyone reads this forum.However, even buying a $1000 scope, should one keep it and try to resell it if they find the UI totally unacceptable? Or some other flaw/"feature" that was buried by the specs? Would it be dishonest to return such a thing?

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2022, 01:39:50 am
content: Fact is distributors get the chance to acquire demo models for customers to try before buying.Anybody properly engaged in this industry can offer this to customers but as Fungus says all equipment has quirks however as engineers aren't we always learning new products so why would equipment be any different ?

author: BillyO
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2022, 01:43:07 am
content: Quote from: ataradov on December 27, 2022, 01:34:52 amIs this something you know is there for sure, or just an assumption?I have seen stuff about returning 10 items a months for no good reason (I changed my mind) for several months, then you get a warning, but like I said I'm talking 2 or 3 things a year. I'm also not talking about "I changed my mind" I'm talking about "This is not suited to my needs" or "This item does not function as expected".

author: dorkshoei
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2022, 01:45:07 am
content: Quote from: ataradov on December 27, 2022, 01:34:52 amMy Siglent SDS1104X-E was "Ships from Amazon.com Sold by Amazon.com". I picked it up when they had a $375 Black Friday sale in 2021.Supposedly there isAmazon Renewedbut I've never seen anything marked as this.Right now there are several Siglent SDS1104X-E sold by Amazon Warehouse on Amazon for $396 vs the $430 list. I don't believe they come with any manufacturer warranty as they are considered used. Just 30 day return option. Not enough of a discount for me but this is how Amazon tries to sell their Siglent returns it seems.I've bought lots of Amazon Warehouse items but only low cost stuff where I don't believe I'll need a warranty.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2022, 01:51:10 am
content: Quote from: BillyO on December 27, 2022, 01:36:30 amThere is not a single one of them sold by amazon. And while FNIRSI lies about the specs, Hantek performance fully matches the stated specifications.You are trying to justify things you know are wrong or objectionable. At the same time you sound like TikTok Karens that discovered the same exact "hack".

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2022, 01:52:02 am
content: Quote from: dorkshoei on December 27, 2022, 01:45:07 amStunning deal for the feature set they offer.

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2022, 01:52:41 am
content: Quote from: dorkshoei on December 27, 2022, 01:45:07 amI've bought an Amazon renewed item before. It was a few years ago and I don't remember what it was now. But I do remember I couldn't tell it from a new one.Edit: I looked it up in my order list it was a PC video card

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2022, 01:53:15 am
content: Quote from: dorkshoei on December 27, 2022, 01:45:07 amYes, and Siglent is the only brand I could find with a quick search that is sold by Amazon.

author: BillyO
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2022, 01:54:44 am
content: Quote from: tautech on December 27, 2022, 01:39:50 amAnd that works if you have a good retailer near you. I used to live in Toronto and as a trombone player I used to frequent a big retailer (Long & McQuade) where I got to know the wind instrument manager very well. If I was in the market for a new horn Greg would let me take any demo model home for 2 or 3 days to try it out. No charge!! I had a similar relationship with a camera shop where I live now, until he retired and closed up. For electronic test equipment though, my nearest supplier is in Toronto more than 2 hours drive (one way). I do buy everything off them and they do have a retail outlet, but the chance to even get a demo is next to nil. Add to the that many retailers these days only have an on-line presence. I would suggest that many find themselves in this position.

author: BillyO
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2022, 01:58:55 am
content: Quote from: ataradov on December 27, 2022, 01:51:10 amNow, now, don't get insulting. What I am is someone that is having a "what if" discussion. Like I said, my question is hypothetical. For discussion purposes, and I will play devil's advocate. Please try to keep it civil.

author: BillyO
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2022, 02:04:49 am
content: Quote from: ataradov on December 27, 2022, 01:51:10 amHave you read the threads concerning these? They mostly just don't work. It is an implied (so much so it does not need to be mentioned) specification ofANYproduct that it works.

author: dorkshoei
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2022, 02:07:33 am
content: Quote from: BillyO on December 27, 2022, 01:36:30 amYou're moving the goal posts here. This isn't the scenario you originally outlined. You oultlined a situation where you're unable to decide between 2-3 choices.I've never found myself in this situation, I do my research, I narrow it down to the item I want. I buy the item. With rare exception (above KVM switch which had a massive functionality issue) I keep the item.As I use it maybe I'll discover things I dislike. Maybe I'll read about competitors new offerings. I add this to my "knowledge" and use thiswhen buying my next model. Maybe the severity of these accelerates the timeline by which I upgrade and sell the old one as used but that's about it.Quote from: BillyO on December 27, 2022, 02:04:49 amThen you would not buy that brand period.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2022, 02:08:09 am
content: Quote from: ataradov on December 27, 2022, 01:53:15 amSiglent NA's Amazon shop actually selling as Siglent Technologies.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2022, 02:15:42 am
content: Quote from: tautech on December 27, 2022, 02:08:09 amI can't find a single Siglent item that is not sold by Amazon actually.And then there is this gemhttps://smile.amazon.com/Professional-Dishwashing-Detergent-Cleaning-Disinfecting/dp/B0BQHQ5YWW

author: baldurn
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2022, 02:17:35 am
content: Quote from: BillyO on December 27, 2022, 01:36:30 amYes return it if you do think you made a mistake. Here in the EU the consumer law is that one can return items within 14 days for any reason. This is specifically so you can return goods you found lacking.But that was not the question stated in the original post. If you buy multiple items without any intent to keep more than one item, you may be abusing the system. But I am not going to judge anyone.I once heard that clothing stores were having problems with people that would buy clothing for a party and then return the items for a full refund. Is that any different? The laws is to protect consumers, but it is open for abuse and everyone pays a higher price due to that.

author: dorkshoei
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2022, 02:17:54 am
content: Quote from: ataradov on December 27, 2022, 02:15:42 amQuote from: baldurn on December 27, 2022, 02:17:35 amAs with most things legal/moral; "intent" is the key. I only buy things I intend to keep. Others do not. A product defect or fault does not change one's initial purchase intent.

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2022, 02:18:29 am
content: Quote from: ataradov on December 27, 2022, 02:15:42 am

author: BillyO
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2022, 02:28:33 am
content: Quote from: dorkshoei on December 27, 2022, 02:07:33 amWell, no, I'm not. If you find the UI confusing, annoying or troublesome, it renders the device virtually unusable. Unless masochism is your thing.Quote from: dorkshoei on December 27, 2022, 02:07:33 amPeople do. Maybe they don't have the resources (inexperienced). Perhaps they don't know a good place to find information they can use to make the decision. Again, experience plays in being able to understand what you read on-line about things too.

author: dorkshoei
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2022, 02:30:43 am
content: Quote from: BillyO on December 27, 2022, 02:28:33 amThere is this thing called Youtube. I'm pretty sure every item I've ever considered buying has about 50 eval videos. If you can't figure out from these that you dislike the UIsufficiently to be forced to return, then perhaps the issue isn't the products. Just sayin!

author: BillyO
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2022, 02:30:55 am
content: Quote from: ataradov on December 27, 2022, 02:15:42 amThe US is not the only place in the world. Here in Canada my favorite retailer for Siglent, RCC, sell through Amazon.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2022, 02:32:58 am
content: Quote from: BillyO on December 27, 2022, 02:28:33 amPrice alone clouds sound judgement.

author: BillyO
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2022, 02:35:39 am
content: Quote from: ataradov on December 27, 2022, 02:15:42 amThat's next level f'd up.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2022, 02:36:08 am
content: Quote from: BillyO on December 27, 2022, 02:30:55 amThat's fine, other countries will have different options. It was more of a general observation that at least in the US Siglent equipment is sold by amazon.All I'm saying is thatQuoteMay be hard to impossible. I can't find a second scope other than Siglent that is sold by amazon. And if you do this trick on item not sold by amazon, but by your favorite retailer, you will be screwing them.

author: BillyO
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2022, 02:36:39 am
content: Quote from: tautech on December 27, 2022, 02:32:58 amYup.

author: BeBuLamar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2022, 02:38:52 am
content: No buying to try it out then return is not nice. I know sometimes you don't have no choice as there is no store for you to even look at the instruments before you buy. That is why I hate the fact that ecomerce has killed all the local businesses.Some company would let you try out the demo for a period of time before you decide to buy or not and that is a much better practice because the same demo can go to many customers not brand new one that can't be sold as new any more.Years ago stereo stores would let me take home a piece of audio equipment to try it out in my house for a couple of weeks or so. That is much better than buy new then return.

author: BillyO
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2022, 02:44:51 am
content: Quote from: ataradov on December 27, 2022, 02:36:08 amPoint given.Well, it seems there is a definite "Naw mate, that'd be wrong!" vibe on the EEVBLOG forum. I expected there would be but I found teh exercise entertaining. Thanks to all that participated and have a great holiday season!

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2022, 02:45:12 am
content: Quote from: ataradov on December 27, 2022, 02:36:08 amSometime bady wrong with your browser settings....there's dozens of them !

author: dorkshoei
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2022, 02:46:21 am
content: Quote from: BillyO on December 27, 2022, 02:44:51 amYou realize you can't kill this thread that easily ;-)

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2022, 02:48:11 am
content: Quote from: tautech on December 27, 2022, 02:45:12 amExample?Note that I don't mean "sold on amazon.com" or even "fulfilled by amazon". "Sold by amazon" means that Amazon actually owns the device, and does not just hold it for the seller. This is extremely rare for expensive items with low sell-though rate. Amazon does not want to sit on inventory that does not sell.This is the only scenario where you can justify anything by saying that you are sticking it to the huge corporation. Anything else and you are just hurting the seller and helping amazon to be even bigger.And I guess this would be hugely region dependent, since I doubt Amazon would ship a scope to the US even if they have it in their AU warehouse.

author: BillyO
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2022, 02:55:22 am
content: Quote from: BeBuLamar on December 27, 2022, 02:38:52 amYeah, for sure. The demise of the local special interest retailer is a real loss. The relationships I had in the past for music and photography were gold. I still have a great relationship with a local computer store, but he is finding it increasingly impossible to find good employees and I think the writing in an the wall for that too.A long, long time ago, before statutory warranties and such, there was an old saying "You pay your money and you take your chances". It looks like ecommerce will bring that sentiment back in some way. Do all the research you can, find a manufacturer that share your philosophy and give them support. For me that's XO Brass for my trombones, Pentax for my cameras and Siglent for my test equipment. BTW the owner of RCC has given me the option of retuning anything I buy off him. I guess you can still build good relationships over the internet.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2022, 02:55:42 am
content: Quote from: ataradov on December 27, 2022, 02:48:11 amSiglent ex Amazon are NA in Aussie as checked that out a while back but some policy allows shipping to NZ.Now see what you mean about sold by Amazon, thanks....yeah don't have an account so never buy from them.

author: BillyO
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2022, 02:56:23 am
content: Quote from: dorkshoei on December 27, 2022, 02:46:21 amBring it on!!!

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2022, 02:57:12 am
content: Quote from: BillyO on December 27, 2022, 02:55:22 amThe only one worth having.

author: dorkshoei
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2022, 02:59:18 am
content: Quote from: ataradov on December 27, 2022, 02:48:11 amI've seen Tautech say here on a few diff threads that the "sold by amazon" Siglents were really Siglent USA distributor. Like you I didn't agree but it didn't seem worth arguing about it

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2022, 03:18:35 am
content: It for sure does feel like they made some bulk deal. I doubt Amazon are such huge fans of Siglent that they would buy literally everything from them.At the same time, this lets Amazon dictate prices and that's why you see all those good discounts. But I guess this would be a part of the agreement. No way Silent loses money on this.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2022, 03:29:13 am
content: Quote from: ataradov on December 27, 2022, 01:09:52 amI disagree. When I buy clothes online (*), I typically return 50% of the items for various reasons. This never has resulted in being flagged by any seller. Why should test equipment ordered online be any different? Getting a loaner is better ofcourse but this isn't always an option. And come to think of it, I have bought various pieces of test equipment which I returned because it didn't meet my expectations (on parts that where not specified in the datasheet at all).* No, buying in a store is not an alternative because the shops over here have zero items in stock. Going there is just a waste of time.Quote from: ataradov on December 27, 2022, 02:48:11 amYour guess is right. Amazon has various regions in which they sell or don't sell certain items. You can switch between countries and you'll see search results will be different.

author: dorkshoei
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2022, 03:34:55 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on December 27, 2022, 03:29:13 amNo clue for Holland but you're way above the statistical norm for the USA where for online clothing only 5% of buyers return 50-100%. The norm is 1-10%.Regardless, I'm not sure your online clothing purchases is a good comparison to TE.

author: coromonadalix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2022, 04:40:48 am
content: Quote from: ataradov on December 27, 2022, 12:35:49 amSame toughtThe only thing we have here is construction equipments rentals nothing elseTrying to rent an 15k oscilloscope loll and if you damage it ??

author: Anthocyanina
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2022, 04:44:06 am
content: And maybe it would be good to also consider the environmental impact of doing that. After all, they have to carry the thing to your home, then back, and if the box got damaged, they may have to get a new box, so it would be creating a considerable amount of waste for just a bit of comfort

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2022, 04:53:09 am
content: Quote from: coromonadalix on December 27, 2022, 04:40:48 amIt does not have to be "here". Equipment rental companies would ship stuff if necessary. Although financially it only makes sense for really expensive stuff. So, probably not anything you can buy on amazon anyway. They are not going to carry low end Rigol scope.Quote from: coromonadalix on December 27, 2022, 04:40:48 amThere is insurance and stuff like this. It is not that uncommon to rent equipment and generally it works. You rent cars, and cars are more expensive than $15k.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2022, 05:31:45 am
content: Amazon will let you return it but what you are proposing is effectively using them as a loaner service rather than a retailer and personally I don't consider that ethical. Can you find someone local that owns the instruments you're considering that will let you play around with it? Or maybe just find all the reviews you can and narrow it down to a few you're considering then buy the one that looks the most promising. If it really fails to live up in some way then go ahead and return it, otherwise keep it.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2022, 05:59:18 am
content: Quote from: james_s on December 27, 2022, 05:31:45 amBut the problem is that you don't know whether something really works until you tested it yourself. And you also need to look at it from the side of the seller: what is cheaper? Deal with sending out loaners or just accept a percentage of returns. Keep in mind that a typical margin stuff being sold is at least 60%. On clothes more like 90%. So a seller has quite a bit of margin to deal with a couple of returns that can be sold at 80% of the original retail price. For a low price item, asking them for a loaner may cost them more in labour costs than just dealing with a return.edit: @dorkshoei: a big online fashion retailer in the NL is seeing an average return rate of 50%.

author: dorkshoei
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2022, 06:06:46 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on December 27, 2022, 05:59:18 amAre you making this up?A direct to consumer business model might aim for 60%.There is no way that TEequipment to take a random example is making 60% margin on TE sales.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2022, 06:33:26 am
content: Quote from: dorkshoei on December 27, 2022, 02:59:18 amWhile not impressed Siglent NA feels they need sidestepshit ontheir extensive dealer network and sell products without direct support and/or have them shipped to all corners of the globe as Amazon products are I don't have much time for such sales practices as it only breeds bad blood when Amazon buyers come to authorized resellers for support.Then I guess there is a bigger picture in sales strategy having built large sales volumes via Amazon and shutting competitors out.How these sales are managed be it Siglent NA has a shop or Amazon sell for them I don't care but I'd rather Amazon sales don't tread on the toes of the official dealer network.

author: BillyO
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2022, 06:43:41 am
content: I think the terms "margin" and "profit" are being confused here. A 50% margin is a 100% gross profit. In other words, if the retailer buys a product for $50 and sells it for $100 he is collecting a 50% margin. That said, in most bricks & mortar type outlets a 40% margin is the lower limit. That means the retailer retains 40% of the sale price before expenses. Due to the reduced overhead, ecommerce can sustain much lower margins.A 60% gross profit equates to a 37.5% margin.An actual 60% margin is unheard of outside of such things a drug dealing and equates to a 150% gross profit. Nice work if you can get it, and you can get it if you try.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2022, 06:47:17 am
content: I can see how "sold by amazon" is attractive for a vendor that sells a reasonably unique product. You essentially have to deal with only one high volume buyer and there is no direct replacement that Amazon can use, so they have to go back to you for more. But you are also completely losing control over pricing and Amazon has no issues selling a few units at a loss to drive the volume up. This sets unreasonable price levels, so you pretty much have to abandon any other sales method in the region.Companies that let Amazon rebadge their products under Amazon brand (like amazon multimeters) are essentially competing with themselves. And this makes no sense to me unless upfront payment is really good.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2022, 07:02:10 am
content: Quote from: dorkshoei on December 27, 2022, 06:06:46 amThey are. I have been trading computer equipment in the past and 60% is the average margin from wholesale to consumer. To be clear: 40% of the consumer price is what the trader buys it from the wholesale distributor / importer. 60% is profit (well, not exactly because from this support, advertising, heating the building, etc need to be paid).

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2022, 02:34:47 pm
content: Assuming for a business where you are planning to purchase several, I would expect any major company to have their sales team provide an on-site demonstration and leave the equipment behind for some length of time. Anytime I have done this, I provide them with feedback, especially for products we don't purchase. In some cases, we may only be looking at a single unit but the cost may justify that level of service.We used to rent more specialized equipment for short term projects. This worked out well.Recently we bought a Siglent Arb where I work to test the waters so to speak. It was less than impressive but we are only talking about a few hundred bucks and did not return it.For home, I don't expect that level of service and just do my homework for brand new equipment. If I were to buy a new Siglent scope for home, I would have to get a demo unit. After seeing how poorly the Arb worked and not getting any answer on if the problem existed with higher end models, the risk would be too high. Last thing I would want is a scope where I rotate the vertical gain knob in one direction and waveform gets smaller and then bigger. You laugh but after seeing that Arb, I have little confidence in their ability to get the UI right.Mostly I buy used, name brand equipment (all I can afford). If the seller states the product works and they offer a trial period, I will take that time to make sure there are no problems. If I find any, I'll try and work with the seller to resolve it. The problem with this is the seller assumes I am some wannabe tech with a degree from a box of Cracker Jacks. Getting over that hurdle quickly is a skill in itself.I did purchase a DMM from one of the major distributors mentioned often on this site. When the meter arrived, I it was missing screws, broken wires and such. Guessing it was one of the expert reviewers who can't tell a MOV from a PTC that wanted to try it out which included taking it apart. When you have the skills of an untrained monkey that doesn't always work out so well. I still have that meter.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2022, 06:49:11 pm
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on December 27, 2022, 02:34:47 pmJoe, there is a new firmware for these AWG's that had been reported to address encoder behaviour.https://int.siglent.com/upload_file/zip/firmware/Signal_generator/SDG2000X_V2.01.01.37R3_EN.zip

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2022, 03:03:48 am
content: Quote from: tautech on December 27, 2022, 06:49:11 pmYou may recall that was the story when I first reported it. I'll check this latest version next week. Maybe post another short video to show the improvement. Funny to see the user posting about their Siglent DSO's encoder. What's up with Siglent and encoders?

author: luudee
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2022, 05:37:23 am
content: Typically, all big brands will offer free demos and even loaner devices pre-sales.When I worked at SUN, the Tektronix rep would take us out to lunch, and bring and leave the latest and greatest test equipment for us to "evaluate" for up to 30 days.And so did reps from HP and other companies.Obviously, you need to be a "deep pocket" buyer, and that will mean only commercial buyers will be eligible, but the path does exist.luudee

author: jasonRF
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2022, 05:54:50 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on December 27, 2022, 05:59:18 amAs others have noted, if you are purchasing something with theintentof keeping it, then there is no moral issue with returning it if it doesn't really work or if it has some issue that is a big deal to you. The OP proposed purchasing multiple competing items with theintentof returning all but one of them, which is a completely different thing. That would go against my moral code, but to each their own.I do understand the folks who don't mind abusing the system if the only outcome is that it "sticks it to" Amazon. In my opinion, the best way to stick it to Amazon is to spend much less money on their site. While I still spend more money there than I should, these days I often purchase products from other stores when possible, even if it costs a little more or takes a few more days to arrive at my door.Jason

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2022, 06:09:43 pm
content: Quote from: jasonRF on December 28, 2022, 05:54:50 pmBut what is the difference between testing one at a time and several at the same time? I doubt anyone is going to order stuff with the intend of not keeping a single item but it all depends on whether the requirements are met. In the end the real problem is lack of proper specifications coming from the manufacturer. Typically the lower cost test equipment is a moving target anyway due to firmware updates adding new features and new bugs.I agree with the notion of 'sticking it to Amazon'. Whatever cost is incurred on their side, will result in price rises but as I have written before: there is a huge margin on these products to begin with. Amazon is also dealing with parcels getting lost, DOAs, etc; you pay for that as well and it is still cheaper compared to insured shipping.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2022, 06:16:39 pm
content: Quote from: jasonRF on December 28, 2022, 05:54:50 pmYep. It's the intent that counts. If you're doing something that youknowwill cost somebody else money then it's not much different from theft even if it's legal to do it.

author: dorkshoei
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2022, 06:17:16 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on December 28, 2022, 06:09:43 pmAre retailers offering a testing service? No. As already said 10x the issue (this was phased as a "moral" question) is your intent.You have some atypical purchasing ideas IMO. Plus comparing TE to the online clothing industry is an odd comparison.I do agree that the budget sellers do a poor job of describing their products on Amazon. I don't think Siglent would however fall into this category plus as already said, there is Youtube (and EEVBlog) where you can watch detailed product tear-down and eval videos.I have never needed to buy N items to evaluate and return N-1 but then I don't buy my clothes online either :-)

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2022, 06:19:50 pm
content: Quote from: dorkshoei on December 28, 2022, 06:17:16 pmI doubt you ever bought a piece of test equipment for serious use otherwise you'd known that Youtube is a far cry from a good source of information for test equipment. Youtube only helps to find out what is out there. Nothing more. And a teardown says absolutely ZERO about the useability of a piece of test equipment for a certain purpose.

author: dorkshoei
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2022, 06:25:47 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on December 28, 2022, 06:19:50 pmSo you're buying for "serious use" from budget manufacturers who provide little product information. Got it ;-)

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2022, 06:41:51 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on December 28, 2022, 06:19:50 pmI can't speak for him, but I've bought several pieces of test equipment for serious use and as far as I can recall I only returned one once and that was because it was defective. In the rest of the cases I researched what I wanted, acquired one, and then learned how to use it for the task I wanted to accomplish. Have you seriously had to try out a handful of oscilloscopes in order to find one that worked for you? I've never had that problem, every scope I've ever owned does what a scope is supposed to do.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2022, 06:57:19 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on December 28, 2022, 06:41:51 pmI have returned several function generators that didn't do what they where supposed to do. In addition I have tested the lab PSU I have before buying it. Ditto for the function generator I ended up with. I don't buy test equipment without test driving it first.Where it comes to oscilloscopes, I need things like protocol decoding to work well in order to do my job efficiently.

author: dorkshoei
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2022, 07:05:20 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on December 28, 2022, 06:57:19 pmYou realize these are two mutually exclusive statements. Maybe you meant "keep" instead of "buy".

author: BeBuLamar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2022, 09:32:34 pm
content: Actually long time ago before I am at a postion where I can manufacturers lend me instruments to evaluate it was back in 80's that test instruments like a DMM was something I had to buy sight unseen. There were no store front that sell them.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2022, 10:29:32 pm
content: Looks like Siglent offers a 30day return policy. So when I decide to buy one of these fancy new DSOs to replace my old relics, I can at least make sure the encoders work as they should.https://siglentna.com/service-and-support/return-policy/

author: dorkshoei
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2022, 10:31:26 pm
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on December 28, 2022, 10:29:32 pmIf you read the terms, buyer is responsible for return shipping. I sense in this scenario a lack of such responsibility is desired :-)

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2022, 10:48:09 pm
content: Quote from: dorkshoei on December 28, 2022, 10:31:26 pmCorrect and also note that it states direct purchases only. Shipping wouldn't be a major concern for me. More that there's no restock fee. For a home hobby trial for the $58nn scope tautech mentions, it may be the best solution.Now, which model to get. I may have to start one of those "help me pick my first modern DSO" threads.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2022, 11:05:50 pm
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on December 28, 2022, 10:48:09 pmQuoteSo you're so bored you need some entertainment do you ?Run outta DMM's to nuke ?

author: jasonRF
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 29, 2022, 12:15:40 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on December 28, 2022, 06:19:50 pmYup. For serious work even the detailed documentation from places like Agilent sometimes need some explaining by their applications engineers. And when you buy expensive gear for serious work, you get those conversations with the engineers as well as other support. I have even had vendor engineers show up at my company and reprogram the FPGA inside a piece of equipment to make it do what we wanted at no extra charge. No return required! I am guessing that when you need to buy budget gear for serious work that you end up with more headaches and returns. I don't see any way around this.jason

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 29, 2022, 12:55:37 am
content: Quote from: tautech on December 28, 2022, 11:05:50 pmnn = two place variable amount. See attached for your OP that I referred to.On the meter front, all was fine until viewers wanted to see that high end Keysight. Things went downhill fast for it. We kinda knew when they handed one over to defpoms channel to do a review at the same time, it was all about damage control. Such a contrast and not at all what I was expecting from the Keysight brand. Certainly not at that price point.Based on several of your comments, I'm interested in seeing how a brand new Siglent compares with my used repaired vintage DSOs. I've never damaged any of my scopes from normal use so no stress testing but I do expect the encoders to work. The 30 return policy should be more than enough time to compare them. I assume with your mentioning hacking them, it doesn't effect the return policy.Quote from: tautech on December 20, 2022, 06:37:48 pm

author: BillyO
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 29, 2022, 01:13:12 am
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on December 29, 2022, 12:55:37 amThey are just as easy to un-hack.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 29, 2022, 01:50:45 am
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on December 29, 2022, 12:55:37 amGotcha !I had that scope hacked to 1 GHz for some years until earlier this year a customer wanted it so it went to them as I had the new 2 GHz model.It should stack well against your LeCroy but it also has the new (for Siglent) fixed mem mode introduced in a recent firmware to align capability with both SDS6000A and SDS2000K HD models.QuoteIf, and if a latest SDS5000X still uses the Python script to generate licenses they are as easy to hack as unhack.Regardless, if the licensing scheme has changed as it has for SDS6000A hacks have been found for these too but as yet they are not public.The great Toy Wonder can help if/as required.You're welcome to PM if required.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 29, 2022, 02:34:50 am
content: I was looking at Siglent's matrix for their higher end products and first thing I noticed was a lack of a metric for Ethernet. Looking in more detail, it seems some of the products support it. So I went hunting for a programmers manual and found this from 2014https://siglentna.com/USA_website_2014/Documents/Program_Material/SIGLENT_Digital_Oscilloscopes_Remote%20Control%20Manual.pdfSo it seems that the newer products should all support it. I think to sort out some of the basics, I just need to DL the manuals and dig in. For my 20 year old WM, I had added a 1Gb Ethernet card to get the transfer speeds up. Hard to believe anything made today wouldn't run circles around it. I'll spend some time doing some research on them in the next few weeks. Arb encoder firmware first....

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 29, 2022, 04:56:43 am
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on December 29, 2022, 02:34:50 amSDS5000X:https://int.siglent.com/u_file/download/22_07_25/SDS_ProgrammingGuide_EN11C.pdfSDS6000A:https://int.siglent.com/u_file/download/22_07_25/SDS_ProgrammingGuide_EN11C.pdfAnd if the quite nice 12 bit SDS2000X HD is sufficient for your needs:https://int.siglent.com/u_file/download/22_11_18/SDS2000X%20HD_ProgrammingGuide_EN11C.pdfBetween the top 2 series, 6000A uses a 5GSa/s ADC foreachchannel whereas all other current models do the interleaving thing, sharing 2 channels on each ADC.SDS5000X has individual controls which suits some older users not willing to adopt multiplexed vertical controls.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 29, 2022, 05:20:31 am
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on December 29, 2022, 02:34:50 amNow why did I think you had SDG2042X ?I linked you the wrong firmware for SDG1032X that I saw in your video. Which have you got to put me outta misery wondering which ?

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 29, 2022, 06:24:19 am
content: Quote from: tautech on December 29, 2022, 05:20:31 amThat's a SDG1032X. The second video shows the version number. Current at the time we purchased it. Still, I reprogrammed it for the peeps who felt the firmware would fix it.Scopewise, I would be looking for something similar to my 15 year old Waveblunder 64Xi. I got it used in rough shape. I melted the cheap plastic case back together, LeCroy provided a new set of knobs that don't fall off every time it's used, it got an SSD upgrade (that the experts claimed would be problematic) and I straightened that cheap stamped metal case. Then there's the poor rework from the factory which was claimed to have been caused from the higher operating temperatures and poor mechanical design. It's PC based and has a coin cell battery buried deep inside. I've had to change it since I put it into service which is no fun. Best to keep your screw gun charged. It's easy enough to control over Ethernet but it's not very fast at moving data. Sadly they only support 100Mb and I can't drop in faster Ethernet card like I did with my fast scope. It throws off a lot of heat which isn't too bad in the winter but can be a problem in the summer.The best part about this scope is how it recals. Use normal trigger, wait an hour for that signal you want to capture and what's it do? Recals. You turn off the auto cal and whats it do? Recals. I hate to say how many times I have lost the data I wanted to capture due to the recal.It's not all doom and gloom. It's been my primary scope over the last several years. It has decent bandwidth, sample rates, memory depth and update rates. Screen size is also good. Brochure is here if you want to recommend something similar:https://www.atecorp.com/atecorp/media/pdfs/data-sheets/lecroy-waverunner-xi_series_brochure.pdfAny idea what the Ethernet connection speeds are and sustained transfer rates are for higher end Siglents? Is there any benchmark data available?

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 29, 2022, 07:10:00 am
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on December 29, 2022, 06:24:19 amLooking at SDS5000X and 6000A datasheets they each state 10/100M LAN also.QuoteSDS6000A and SDS5000X both have a 'Quick Cal' feature for the warm up period that can be disabled. (and does !)All I've ever seen it do was pause the scope momentarily however I don't know what effect it has when the scope is doing something really challenging.QuoteTo match these specs, especially sampling only SDS6000A can do whereas matching the memory spec these days is a doodle.https://siglentna.com/wp-content/uploads/dlm_uploads/2022/08/SDS6000A_Datasheet_EN01C.pdfSDS5000X on promo shares two ADC's to cover 4 channels therefore drops to 2.5 GSa/s when 3 or more channels are active.QuoteAs mentioned only 10/100M as per datasheet however to attempt to give some reference point I've just looked up LAN spec for the diminutive 4ch X-E and darned if the LAN spec isn't listed but I'll still point you to what I had in mind as when member lundmar developed LXI-Tools it wasn't so much the port speed that mattered but how efficiently the requests were managed.https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/open-source-lxi-tools-and-liblxi-v1-0-released-for-gnulinux/msg1394796/#msg1394796I can't see the 5kX and 6kA DSO's being any more sluggish when in fact these later scopes not only offer a webserver too but also remote server file management.SDS6054A is the best fit however no specials on this currently and list is ~$8k which makes the SDS5054X at under $6k on promo with 1GHz free BW upgrade and free optional decodes I2S, FlexRay, 1553B, CANFD, SENT and Manch look quite attractive.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 29, 2022, 07:13:49 am
content: Joe, PM incoming.

author: dorkshoei
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 29, 2022, 06:23:49 pm
content: Nice thread tangent. When can we return to picking on the OP

author: BillyO
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 29, 2022, 06:41:20 pm
content: Quote from: dorkshoei on December 29, 2022, 06:23:49 pmSince my intent was a hypothetical discussion you can "pick" on me all you like.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 29, 2022, 07:10:02 pm
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on December 29, 2022, 06:19:33 pmUsing source CSV files ?If so Siglent now have a smaller BIN file format that reduces download times and when it's on your PC there is a small BIN to CSV executional you download from within the scope to convert back to the more normally used CSV.IDK what normal file size reductions are obtainable with BIN downloads other than for most captures it's a significant and worthwhile step to go through. Been a while since I used it but it's darn simple IIRC.https://siglentna.com/operating-tip/oscilloscope-binary-data-format/This obviously reduces the need for blindingly fast LAN connections.I have some other bits to maybe share in a PM later.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 29, 2022, 07:35:11 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on December 29, 2022, 07:10:02 pmFor the network analyzers, scopes and arbs, I stay with binary. ASCII would be far too slow. Someone had asked about running an FFT with a PC using the data from a scope. From what I remember they had provided some constraints and were basically looking for how fast it could run. I think I joined the fun with the WM. Looking for the code, I don't see it. I could certainly toss something together if you would like to try an A/B comparison. I'm pretty much limited by that 400Mbps transfer rate.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 29, 2022, 07:52:29 pm
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on December 29, 2022, 07:35:11 pmSorry, try this:https://siglentna.com/operating-tip/binary-to-csv-program/Let me tap a couple of our Beta testers for better knowledge that I have about LAN transfer rates and maybedragentice then into this thread.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 29, 2022, 07:58:07 pm
content: I meant the software I used when I demo'ed the FFT.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 29, 2022, 10:47:45 pm
content: About network interface speed: don't stare yourself blind on that. A DSO won't be able to use 100Mbit to the limit

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 29, 2022, 11:00:41 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on December 29, 2022, 10:47:45 pmJoe's requirement is for post processing of data so for some captures files can easy be 100's MB.Thinking about this while on other tasks it did occur to me the SDS6000A with its rear MicroSD card slot might be a good alternative solution for Joe.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 29, 2022, 11:45:22 pm
content: How do you perceive the MicroSD slot would be used? Maybe it wasn't clear that I want the data live, not by sneaker net.My vintage LeCroy 7200A used two SCSI masters to move the data from the DSO to the PC. More than one way to skin that cat back then. They must have been thinking about Ethernet back then and the scope is actually marked where the card would plug-in. From what I understand they never implemented any firmware support for it. The good old days....

author: baldurn
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 29, 2022, 11:48:20 pm
content: The WiFi option could be faster than 100 Mbps.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2022, 02:33:54 am
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on December 29, 2022, 11:45:22 pmOh a live data stream, not sure how/if they can do that, maybe someone else can advise.I guess the SCPI command set does that stuff, IDK never used it.Do you wanna give one a trial run as is the topic of this thread ?I can open some doors, in fact they are already adjar.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2022, 02:46:27 am
content: Quote from: baldurn on December 29, 2022, 11:48:20 pmThe problem is that the data can not be fed into the ethernet link fast enough. A couple of years ago several DSOs where tested and the recent models from GW Instek turned out to have the highest data transfer rate

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2023, 11:41:46 pm
content: As promised, I updated the Siglent Arb from 33R1B6 to 33R3. It had no effect on the encoder skipping problem.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2023, 11:47:11 pm
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on December 30, 2022, 02:58:02 amAnd what did you discover ?

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 04, 2023, 12:44:54 am
content: Quote from: tautech on January 03, 2023, 11:47:11 pmQuote

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 04, 2023, 02:19:54 am
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on January 04, 2023, 12:44:54 amSo we're still on about your encoder abuse instead of using the keypad and not at all about your scope needs.No one said any upgrade for SDG1000X models has remedied encoder issues so it's not surprising they are unchanged for you. Everyone else I know doesn't have issues with the SDG1000X encoder however you've identified a skip/s which I'm sure is in many brands of equipment.Send me a PM should you want to discuss some issues in detail.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 04, 2023, 03:53:25 am
content: Quote from: tautech on January 04, 2023, 02:19:54 amQuote from: tautech on December 27, 2022, 06:49:11 pmIf turning the encoder is abuse, sure. No problem though. The tone of your response helps me understand the level of support and helps solidify my lack of confidence in the brand. A good data point.I like having an encoder as it allows me to make adjustments dynamically but it has to work. I've not seen one count up and down when rotating in a single direction like this Siglent.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 04, 2023, 04:07:18 am
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on January 04, 2023, 03:53:25 amMaybe you missed this a few days back:Quote from: tautech on December 29, 2022, 05:20:31 amSorry, I never implied once I realised you had a SDG1032X and not a SDG2042X that the new firmware might solveyourencoder issues.If we can put this behind us for now I have some info that could be to your benefit however it is not for public disclosure.

author: BillyO
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 04, 2023, 01:55:29 pm
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on January 04, 2023, 03:53:25 amAny "tone" inferred aside, at least he is here and engaged with you to help despite not being directly rewarded for his efforts. I have seen assistive posts from other Siglent staff on these pages too. I have, however, never seen any input or help form: Tektronix, HP/Agilent/Keysight, R&S, etc.. In fact at least one of those has publicly stated they will not support non-professionals and hobbyists.When I go dancing, I like to pick a partner that is actually at the dance hall. Your tastes may differ.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 04, 2023, 02:38:19 pm
content: Quote from: BillyO on January 04, 2023, 01:55:29 pmHow? By telling joe he's turning the encoder wrong?

author: colorado.rob
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 04, 2023, 02:42:21 pm
content: Quote from: BillyO on January 04, 2023, 01:55:29 pmR&S and Keysight are both active on this forum. Considerably less active than Siglent, but still active. They do, however, cater to a different clientele in general than Siglent. Many members of this forum are not hobbyists.

author: BillyO
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 04, 2023, 02:45:26 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on January 04, 2023, 02:38:19 pmWell, there is a bit more to the exchange so far than that. But I think you are aware of that too.

author: BillyO
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 04, 2023, 02:55:07 pm
content: Quote from: colorado.rob on January 04, 2023, 02:42:21 pmI guessed that much. I was was a "Pro" but now I'm just a hobbyist. Despite my many years of working as a professional ET, I am now no longer of interest to the "Big Guy's". Sure, they will sell me premium priced equipment and send me on my lonesome way, but won't be bothered to help if issues arise, despite the experience. That may not be true of all of them, to be fair. Some might step in with a little help if I have a service contract. But I'm not willing to pay the price of admission to find out.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 04, 2023, 05:35:57 pm
content: The latter is utter nonsense. I have received in depth responses to technical questions from GW Instek, Keysight, Tektronix and R&S. Not through a noisy forum but by contacting their support. I didn't need any support contract or something like that.

author: BillyO
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 04, 2023, 06:04:18 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on January 04, 2023, 05:35:57 pmReally? Good for you - perhaps you are lucky or you put in your request under a company name. Recently I sent in questions to both Tek and Fluke and got no response at all, other than their email bot saying they got my request and would get right back to me. Like F'k! Nowthatis utter nonsense .. and is a major reason I went to Siglent and Brymen instead.I send in a request to Siglent and I have a phone call within 2 hours.I will actively work against both Fluke and Tek going forward. They should not treat potential customers like sh!t. So far Agilent and R&S have not personally pissed me off as I have not yet tried to contact them, but I like the way I get treated by Siglent and I like their equipment, so they will get my recommendations for new equipment purchases going forward.You can have your industry "leaders". I have no time for them.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 04, 2023, 06:36:52 pm
content: Quote from: BillyO on January 04, 2023, 01:55:29 pm

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 04, 2023, 06:53:13 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on January 04, 2023, 02:38:19 pmI understand it's considered abuse.Quote from: nctnico on January 04, 2023, 05:35:57 pmI've had very good luck getting support from Fluke, HP, LeCroy and Tektronix. The last time I contacted Fluke was to get approval to release a training video they produced for one of their hand held scopes into public domain.I think the only time I have been in contact with a service department that treated me like shit, it was with GMW in the USA. I don't blame the corporation but then again, their distributors are representing them.Of course, I can't mention service without bringing up Brymen. If I gave out awards for service, they would certainly win by a wide margin.

author: mawyatt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 04, 2023, 07:02:06 pm
content: Paul from R&S is active (very knowledgable technically) and has provided some very useful information as shown here for example, note video author.https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/comparison-between-siglent-sdg1000x-and-2000x/75/Keysight used to have a representative that participated here, but haven't seen anything recently, and we haven't had a need for contacting them, so no reference here.So far not impressed with GW Instek, alto only a single issue/request, no big deal.Rob is active as we all know, and extremely helpful for folks with Siglent gear. Siglent NA has also been helpful for our needs/request, as are some of the other folks involved with Siglent gear. Overall very impressed with Siglent support here, and from NA.There is so much useful and important information flowing here on Siglent gear, of course you need to filter the responses/claims/non-sense/bashers/fanboys/info sources and such, but once you've developed your select "filters", one can glean a tremendous amount of highly useful information on instrument usages, features (some hidden), upgrades (hacks), limitations, repairs, and so on.For example, just today over on the thread about the AWGs and the note about the little known SDG2000X & SDG6000X feature to "tune" the Reference Oscillator. Highly useful, but little discussed feature (wish their DSOs had this!!).This site alone is probably Siglent's best advertising resource, at least for the smaller customers, which they seem to care about and support after the sale.Of course YMMV.Best,

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 04, 2023, 07:03:35 pm
content: Getting an answer also depends on the question. A-brands typically have elaborate specs and documentation so many answers can be found in there. I have stopped answering questions from customers quickly because typically they tell me 'never mind, found it in the documentation ' within an hour. Unless ofcourse it is about a real issue that isn't covered by the documentation.

author: BillyO
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 05, 2023, 03:56:29 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on January 04, 2023, 07:03:35 pmIt shouldn't. If the answer is buried in their documentation or deep on the website, then they should point that out.A delayed answer is not the same as no answer.Also, please don't assume everyone you meet on the internet is an idiot. This seems to be a failing of several of the long term members around here. In my case the information was not available in the documentation. To Tek the question was about whether or not they were aware of and/or working on a fix for a bug and to Fluke it was a question about their policy regarding parts supply and service for discontinued instruments.In a way I'm quite glad. First, I got a great lesson on their customer support. Second, for less money than I was going to spend with them on a single 4ch 2 Series scope cope and 87V DMM I was able to get 2 4ch scopes a DC load, a bench DMM, a handheld DMM and a separate AWB. Way more functionality, higher specs and a responsive, engaged manufacturer.Oh, and I ended up avoiding that horrible mirror like screen and those nasty cheap membrane buttons they have on the 2 Series scope. Really Tek? Is junk like that actually acceptable for a $5K scope?

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 05, 2023, 04:59:41 pm
content: Quote from: BillyO on January 05, 2023, 03:56:29 pmThese are exactly the kind of questions you won't get an answer for! No matter which manufacturer you ask.- No manufacturer will share their development roadmap. It may make customers wait longer to make a purchase.- Discontinued product means: no more parts and no more service. Maybe you can get lucky and get something repaired based on 'best effort' but that's it.

author: BillyO
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 05, 2023, 05:08:45 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on January 05, 2023, 04:59:41 pmNo it does not. Discontinued means they no longer manufacture it. However, a company Like Fluke MUST have a service policy for their discontinued instruments. If they don't then I dodged a pretty serious bullet didn't I? I can imagine a large company or University buying 100 Fluke 87V meters only to have Fluke announce a few months later they go F-off because they are discontinued. No, Fluke woudl never have gotten where they are if they did not support discontinued instruments. They're just pricks though.

author: Black Phoenix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 05, 2023, 05:27:10 pm
content: Quote from: BillyO on January 05, 2023, 05:08:45 pmIf you read the Lifetime Warranty of Fluke (for equipments with such), it states that the support for equipment discontinued is up to 8 years after end of production.Even normal 2 year warranty equipments (thermometers, Scope Meters, etc) parts should be available for at least 5 years, per talks I had back in 2014 with the Portuguese Fluke Authorised reseller and warranty provider - AresAgante Lda.

author: mawyatt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 05, 2023, 05:38:32 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on January 05, 2023, 04:59:41 pmDon't think this is generally true, maybe with some lower tier OEMs. As Billy mentioned "Discontinued" means the product is no longer manufactured, whether service and parts are still offered by the OEM is another issue.HPAK for example have maintained service and components long after a product was "Discontinued", good example here is the HP34401A.Best,

author: BillyO
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 05, 2023, 05:59:20 pm
content: Quote from: Black Phoenix on January 05, 2023, 05:27:10 pmYes, I saw that (it's actually 7 years after discontinuation and 10 years after purchase), but then I assume there would some sort of post warranty support. There is no way on earth I would spend $700 on a meter and not be able to get parts or service for it more than 10 years down the road. 10 years. That's some "lifetime"! I guess if you're a dog it might work. I thought trusted brands like Fluke and such did not need to exaggerate for marketing purposes? Aren't they just so inherently great they can be honest? Why just say it's a 10 year warranty (except when it's a 7 year warranty)?They also mention extended service, but do not say how long it's for.Oh, and I just noticed .. to even get the opportunity to spend money on extended service you have to send it in and pay for a pre-extended service inspection.$$ $$ $$Still no idea how long that will last though.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 05, 2023, 06:37:01 pm
content: In a company equipment is typically written off in 3 to 5 years. That is the market brands like Fluke are aiming at.

author: BillyO
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 05, 2023, 06:43:26 pm
content: Fair enough, but I'm not a company.So, from my perspective (or the perspective of any hobbyist) my original statement was not complete nonsense. They don't give a rat's ass about us to the extent they will not even reply to our inquiries.

author: mtk
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 05, 2023, 07:14:19 pm
content: Those large companies like Tektronix, Fluke … are just playing with their customers. The products do not have complete technical documentation, including schematics and firmware. In some cases they are not reparable or the company might require a large amount of money for replacement parts. To speak nothing about the initial purchasing prices. I purchased recently USB oscilloscope Hantek 6074BC – 126 USD, a similar PicoScope 2408B is 1335 USD. 10 times higher price for similar item is really quite a lot.

author: BillyO
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 05, 2023, 07:37:15 pm
content: Quote from: mtk on January 05, 2023, 07:14:19 pmI wouldn't go that far. They just don't care about the hobbyist (us) and are probably not a good partner for us because of that.Quote from: mtk on January 05, 2023, 07:14:19 pmThey are not very different from anyone else in this respect. With today's ultra hig level of integration and ultra small sized SMD components, not too many people are equipped to do re-work on these. They still publish schematics for their serviceable equipment of just a few years ago and going back to the 70's in some cases.Quote from: mtk on January 05, 2023, 07:14:19 pmI think if you dig you will find the Pico a considerably better scope than the Hantek. I have the Hantek and it's a decent piece of hardware for the price, but the software leaves alittlelotto be desired. One good thing about the Hantek is that the front end is good to about 250MHz. If you run just one channel you will get this full BW and the full 1Gs/s sample rate. Get yourself a 250MHz probe and enjoy that undocumented feature.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 05, 2023, 09:10:40 pm
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on January 04, 2023, 06:53:13 pmThis project I helped with a few years back was proper abuse, both for the massive hours we pulled putting it together and of the machinery too.1000+HP from an abused 20B stock block (a bit of porting and boost excluded) didn't make for a long lasting motor but the new recessed engine plate and billet housings should be more reliable @ 10k RPM and 1500 HP.It's a NZ class called Pro Import, a sub class of Sport Compact.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 05, 2023, 09:36:50 pm
content: Quote from: BillyO on January 05, 2023, 05:59:20 pmThey're quite clear about the terms and they go much further with their product repairability, warranty and life cycle than anyone else I'm aware of. 10 years is the worst-case for warranty and product support. Does any other manufacturer guarantee that, if they even sell parts or provide service at all? Fluke doesn't change product models often and I think the main driver when they do is simply inability to continue sourcing the parts. Should I expect them to stockpile ancient flat-pack ICs in case my 27 needs service?

author: BillyO
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 05, 2023, 10:16:14 pm
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on January 05, 2023, 09:36:50 pmI think your missing my point. I'm not asking them to support the product ad infinitum, just tell me their policy. For example, back when I had a part-time job a a motorcycle dealer, Yamaha had an official and public policy that they would continue to provide parts for any motorcycle for 12 years after production stopped. I have no idea what it is now, but there was no "Okay, pay some more money and we'll keep making parts .. but just for, and only if you pay us to inspect your bike first and we like what we see."So you say they are clear. Then tell me, how long will parts and service be available for the 87V? At east 10 years is not a complete answer, as they offer extended service .. but for how long? When is the line drawn in the sand? So, to me it was/is not clear.In any case, if they had come back with any reply at all things might have been different. That is my point.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 05, 2023, 10:42:42 pm
content: Quote from: BillyO on January 05, 2023, 10:16:14 pmThe 87V? They'renevergoing to stop making them, ever, so it's moot.You can ask about the 187, or whatever, but not the 87V.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2023, 03:16:27 am
content: Quote from: tautech on January 05, 2023, 09:10:40 pmLooking for my soft side? My old Suzuki is a pig compared with a modern bike. It will go 140MPH to the 1/8 mile and turn the quarter in under 8 seconds. That's with my lard ass driving it. This bike was 105HP stock. I have no idea what it is now but enough the frame was twisting and scaring the wife..Then we have me turning a little plastic knob on a Siglent Arb. That's some scary shit there....

author: BillyO
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2023, 03:48:00 am
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on January 06, 2023, 03:16:27 amAwesome! I had a 1978 GS750 (not the "E") and later a 1982 GS1100E. I never did any performance mods to either of these bikes, but they were the most reliable and competent bikes I ever owned. Before that I was a DITW Yamaha RD fan and did a lot of mods on them and even raced them for a while. However, the only big bikes I could get comfy with were the Suzuki's .. and I worked for a bike dealership in those days and had access to Suzuki, Yamaha, Honda, Kawasaki and HD. My last street only bike was an ancient '73 Honda CB750. I picked it up because it was supposed to be a classic but unlike a Tek 465, naw. It was a total disappointment to a guy that had the pleasure of riding the Suzuki's I had. I got it for $200 so who can really complain, but as a daily (the other reason I bought it), it was a no go. Anyway, since 1994 I have been an off-road guy almost 100% and now at 65 even that is tapering off (but slowly .. I hope).

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2023, 07:25:57 am
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on January 06, 2023, 03:16:27 amYeah, you've shared that with me before.QuoteIs the rumor true and you have one ?

author: mtk
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2023, 08:36:57 am
content: Quote from: BillyO on January 05, 2023, 07:37:15 pmYou are a customer, no matter hobbyist or professional they suppose to provide proper technical support. Have you considered petitioning the Canadian parliament about implementing legislation for better customer protection ? From my personal experience the customer protection in Canada – horrible.Quote from: BillyO on January 05, 2023, 07:37:15 pmThere are microscopes, most of the stuff are reparable with proper equipment. Those companies suppose to provide proper documentation. If they don’t they can be forced, by limiting their access to the local market etc. By the way are you aware, that those companies when sell equipment in Canada suppose to be registered with the appropriate regulatory bodies and comply with their rules.Quote from: BillyO on January 05, 2023, 07:37:15 pmThanks for the advice.

author: jasonRF
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2023, 02:12:40 pm
content: Quote from: BillyO on January 05, 2023, 07:37:15 pmInteresting. I have a couple of Picoscopes and love them, but they sure are pricey. My approach when getting a nice 2-channel model was to buy used so I paid about 25% of retail (on a discontinued model and I did have to wait many months to find the deal...), but good deals on used 4-channel models do not exist.I have never really looked at the hantek usb scopes before - the first Hantek device I ever looked at was the DSO2D10 bench scope (stumbled across on Amazon) but the info I found on it online looked so depressing that I wrote-off the brand completely. However, your USB model looks like a great deal as long as it works as advertised (which the DSO2x1x apparently do not). On paper the 6074BC is more comparable to the Pico 2407B (4 x 70 MHz), which is 'only' $979 and is out of stock everywhere. The Hantek has a lot less memory, doesn't seem to have a waveform generator (as far as I can tell from documentation) and the software doesn't have all the bells and whistles or polish, but it is more sensitive (2 mV/div vs 4 mV/div) and of course so much more affordable.jason