Does an EE degree still count for a professional electronic designer today? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: jmc2000
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 25, 2013, 12:51:45 pm
content: Over the many years I've practiced as a professional EE, I've found that an EE degree dosn't have a significant advantage over more basic qualifications such as a HND or even a HNC in electronic design in the UK. About 50% of what's taught at university level isn't generally needed by industry, especially when it comes to the physics and mathematics taught on these courses.Even at UMIST within the tomography process group, my general impression was that most of the work could have been done by a bright college student with little knowledge of univeristy education.So going by your experiences within the industry, have any of you guys been held back because you didn't have a degree?What are the advantages of holding an EE degree?I would suggest:Immersed within an education environment for three years, that exposes a person to a diverse range of subjects that they will never experience elsewhereTraining of concentrated, disciplined, organised thinking that eventually becomes a habitExposure to the talents of fellow students that inspires the raising of one's standards to their levelAmmo on a CV

author: jpb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 25, 2013, 01:09:31 pm
content: I think that in the past it was easier to get into industry without a degree as in the UK there was the apprentice route. Though apprenticeships still exist there aren't the same range of companies willing to provide them and I think this is now a harder route of entry.If you're going to become an electronic engineer you probably need at least an HND and you'll probably be competing against people with degrees (for a first job) so whether you really need a degree or not it might be harder to get your foot in the door without one.In my first job as a graduate there were a few people working in technical roles without a degree but they tended to be people who had been at the company a long time probably dating back to the 1960s.It is a bit like the debate over nursing in the UK. Do nurses really need to have a degree? My sister trained as a nurse before the degree system came in and I don't think she was any less qualified than the present generation but now all nurses have to have a degree.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 25, 2013, 01:56:02 pm
content: Quote from: jmc2000 on April 25, 2013, 12:51:45 pmThere. Fixed that for ya.You need an education. That is sure. But what is given in schools doesn't necessarily qualify as education... Occupational therapy.. Maybe... Keep em busy and quit so the teacher can get his paycheck. There are exceptions of course. And really good institutes do deliver quality. But the common stuff is 'unity gain' material.. At best... (There's a lot of 'insertion loss' and the output is grossly 'mismatched' as well. )

author: jpb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 25, 2013, 02:18:14 pm
content: Quote from: free_electron on April 25, 2013, 01:56:02 pmYes, I realise that your modifications to the OP's list where partially humorous but they also raised interesting issues.

author: Frantone
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 25, 2013, 02:37:12 pm
content: As a very small voice in this kind of discussion I would say that if you have a passion for electronics then you should read about electronic design and design electronics. Learn by doing and learn by failing, and doing again. If after failing a lot you still love it, and you get better at it, then you probably have the stuff to go far as an electronic designer.If what you really want is a degree, then you should become an EE.

author: Codemonkey
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 25, 2013, 02:40:41 pm
content: I started work at a local electronics company at 16, straight out of school as an aprentice R&D engineer. Part of this included a day release course at the local college studying for a BTEC ONC and HNC in EE. I stayed in the job there for just under 15 years, (when I left I was working as Technical/R&D Manager). I left that job to go work for a much smaller high tech company that then got bought out by a much bigger one where I now work as a Senior Embedded software engineer (been here just over 8 years now).I didn't go on to do a degree for a few reasons (to do it part time would have taken about 5 more years which I just couldn't face and I suck at maths! (I'd love to be as smart as the free_electrons's of this world!)).Not having a degree may have held me back a little when it comes to salary, though its not kept me from continuous employment.In those 23 years I've worked alongside many engineers with higher qualifications (Degree's and PhD's). I would say a fair few of those whilst being quite smart have been rather short on real world skills (a few couldn't even solder!, one spent a few weeks arseing about trying to find out why a transformer was running "hot" when in fact it was well within its normal operating temperature range).

author: jpb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 25, 2013, 03:08:36 pm
content: Quote from: Codemonkey on April 25, 2013, 02:40:41 pmI think that this is a good route to go, but I also think it is much harder now.You can, of course, do both. A friend started off as an apprentice after leaving school at 15 but then went on to do a degree and later a PhD. But this was back in the sixties.A degree perhaps gives you more options. If you go into embedded systems as an apprentice at 15 and get years of experience but then decide you're bored with it or the jobs aren't around it is more difficult to change course.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 25, 2013, 03:17:02 pm
content: Quote from: Codemonkey on April 25, 2013, 02:40:41 pmGood ! There's hope for ya yeti suck at math. Never figured out what derivatives are good for. Can't pull a square root to save my life. Imaginary numbers ? Don't need em. i have plenty with the real ones.Best math score i ever got was probably a c- ... Math is an abstract, simplified, representation of the real world. i prefer the real world. There are less surprises.... How come this don't behave according to the equation ? Because the damn thing will do exactly as it pleases. You can show a bunch of electrons the equations all day long. They don't care.It's like trying to herd sheep by showing them a diagram of where they should stand.... You're better off getting a collie. The dog will put them exactly where they need to be.. So far for the diagram... Outsmarted by a dog mr gold ribbon magna cum laude 'sheep engineer'...Sod the equation. Kick em into a computer ,take the carefully calculated number and add 20% . You'll be close...I'm not smarter than joe at the corner coffeeshop. I just know more and have a lot more experience. I stick my nose everywhere (asbestos coated and lead-lined... I'm smart enough not to burn it on a hot 7805 or a capacitor with space faring ambitions.... ) , not afraid to ask questions.

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 25, 2013, 11:12:52 pm
content: jmc2000,Think of it this way: Let say you are about to have a fight in a bar, question really is whether your fight Joe or Jack. There is Joe who've been telling you he practiced Shaolin Kung Fu for a few years. Then there is Jack, and you have seen pictures of Jack receiving his award as Black Belt in Tae Kwon Do.Who do you pick a fight with? One is quantified (black belt) and one is not. One you know he must be at least "that good"; and one whom you have no ruler to measure.On the other hand:You know both Joe and Jack well. You know Joe really have been practicing Chinese Martial Arts, and you know when he punches, he made Bruce Lee looked slow. Now the picture changes.So, a degree from a good university is ready proof of your ability - a proof that you may or may not need. It opens doors. It tells stranger "I am at least this good." On the other hand, if you have hung around that shop for months, they already know "you are that good" with or without the paper... Well, who needs it.So, if you think you want to prove to a stranger - "I am at least this good, and I can show I accomplished at least this much", a degree is the proof-positive. It opens doors when a stranger is guarding it.One thing I would add, when I (used to) hire and in situation when transcripts are available, I look at their non-major grades as carefully as I look at grades along their major. These side stuff tell me about the person: "When given a task they don't like, how seriously do they attack that task?" The person who "D's & F's" every non-major subject will likely not do well when you assign him to work on a boring/uninteresting project. With every interesting job, there will boring tasks in job one must do also, you know.Rick

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 25, 2013, 11:24:40 pm
content: Probably depends a lot on the employer. If I were hiring, I'd put 3 years' genuine experience of actually making things way ahead of 3 years at college.If you look at the time and cost of a degree course, a well-motivated person may well be better off spending less on gear and bits to teach themselves a range of useful skills in the course of producing a bunch of published designs etc. And you may find yourself not needing a job if you luck out on a successful product.

author: Smokey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2013, 12:12:15 am
content: Quote from: Rick Law on April 25, 2013, 11:12:52 pmWait .. wait.. I got this.... Joe!..No wait.. Jack.. ya Jack.. wait...ok.. ok.. this is one of those trick questions isn't it? The missing info is how drunk am I?If I'm really drunk I'll take on all 4 of them! I bet they can't fight nearly as good as me with the room is spinning like this!!!(sorry.. couldn't resist)

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2013, 12:34:06 am
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on April 25, 2013, 11:24:40 pm...put 3 years' genuine experience of actually making things way ahead of 3 years at college...I may do so too, but will the candidate prove she knows her stuff? In the US, for legal reasons, many employers will only confirm duration of employment and salary. I cannot ask "How well did Mary do?"The whole point of "MSCE", "PMP Certification", "ITIL Certification... are means to quantify candidates - not that it is always accurate nor it being necessarily a good thing (pigeons to fit into the hole), but that is the state of where things are.After a few years building a track record, the degree becomes less and less relevant. It is the first few doors you may need open. Beyond that, well, track record is far more important.Rick

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 26, 2013, 12:37:00 am
content: Quote from: Rick Law on April 25, 2013, 11:12:52 pmYes, proof of your ability to learn at least something, stick it out for 4 years (in most countries), and hopefully understand some stuff enough to pass the exams.That counts for something, but is it proof of your ability to do anything useful for an employer though? No, not at all.Engineering degrees varymassivelyin what they teach, both in theory and practice. So as an employer, havinga degreeis no reliable indicator to me in terms of what skills they may have learned.When I interview a graduate, I ask them practical questions related to the intended job, and gauge their enthusiasm. You went to MIT? good for you, but all I care is do you have prototype build experience, board layout skills, and the right attitude. No?, don't call me I'll call you, next....If a hobbyist (or someone with a lesser diploma or trade certificate) comes along and shows the skills and attitude, they will trump the MIT graduate almost every time.Sometimes none of the graduates have the skills I want, and I have to pick someone, so then maybe the quality of the degree might come into play a bit. But ultimately I'm going to pick the person I liked the best (usually the most enthusiastic), not the one with the best degree.So where did the degree rank in that? Pretty much last behind skills, and attitude/enthusiasm/likability.And that's for graduates. Once you have industry experience, your degree simply become a footnote in your resume.But then again, I'm not your typical employer. There are many that will refuse to touch you without a degree, and some that won't touch you unless you have therightdegree, and some that due to red tape can't touch you without a degree and/or professional association membership.In the end, having the degree will never hurt you.

author: Rufus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2013, 12:53:25 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on April 26, 2013, 12:37:00 amApart from the 3-4 years and money you spent getting one. It isn't a zero cost option.

author: HackedFridgeMagnet
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2013, 12:54:10 am
content: Quote from: free_electron on April 25, 2013, 01:56:02 pmLove it. It applies even more to PHDs.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 26, 2013, 01:18:07 am
content: Quote from: Rufus on April 26, 2013, 12:53:25 amYes, of course, you have to spend 4 years getting it.No point getting into a debate other whether or not you are better off spending the 4 years doing something else, because you can only know that with hindsight.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2013, 03:45:07 am
content: Sometimes,other Techs would confide to me,their interest in doing a Degree.They would usually end up with something like this:-"But I'll be (say),36 by the time I finish the Degree"!I always answered,"You'll still be that age if you don't & you won't have a Degree!"Of course,I never took my own advice---always thought I was too dumb!I feel that practical experience added to a Degree results in the best Engineers.Back in the day,some big organisations had Cadet Engineers,who between their Uni studies worked under anexperienced Engineer,& side by side with Techs & other staff to get a better grounding in the real world operation of the organisation.Poor old EE Students these days have to go "cap in hand" to find somebody who will allow them to do "Intern" work.

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2013, 04:11:16 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on April 26, 2013, 12:37:00 amDave, you and I are actually in agreement in "what should be". But then there is the real world with the larger employers. It is most interesting and distressful that today's hiring practices in the USA. Perhaps reflective of the culture, perhaps not; but in the movie Dirty Harry, he said "Personnel? That's where idiots worked" (or something like that) and the Captain replied: "I am from Personnel." Yet, they are the gate keepers. They are controlling the guarding the gates of most valuable resource which is the brain-bank. Regardless of the standing of HR in pop-culture, what cannot be argued is that perhaps an engineering applicant should first be reviewed by an engineer, but that is not the world we are in....When I interview a graduate, I ask them practical questions related to the intended job, and gauge their enthusiasm...First, this being Electronic Engineering blog, let me prefix the next paragraph by this: I use the word “merely engineer” in the following paragraph not to mean it negatively. It is use to draw a distinction to the paragraph after.Typically in a Fortune 500,large companies come with large bureaucracies. When the position is for "merely an engineer", they must get by thegate keepers first. Without the "right labels", they (candidates) don't get to see you (hiring manager). The resume (CV) getsfiltered by keywords then the HR person then... They have to go through gates after gates before they get to you. Thecandidate-persondoes not come into play until thecandidate-caricature-on-paperget pass HR.The even more distressing thing is most business leaders (in particular, Jack Welch) are keenly aware of the importance of people. Business books point to "You don't hire for skill, you hire for attitude." The same books point to “Skill can be taught and easily taught where as the attitude is the person.” Besides, they are keenly aware that skill has a short shelf-life whereas attitude has a near infinite shelf-life. At certain level, HR and having the right acronyms is no longer a factor. At that level, the first one you talk to is some Senior VP who is a few levels above those who wrote the silly policies and requirements.But the trouble for the “freshman” is the many steps between the first job and the job where the first stop is the SVP. He needs to get by that first gate for his first job.To add to the problem, when I last worked for a fortune 500 as a hiring manager, I cannot even call the candidates’ referencesuntil his first day on the job. This is to avoid legal situation when a candidate file a law suit saying “he lost his current job because his employer knew he is seeking alternatives as a result of a reference call made by you”. At two different Fortune 1000, when some one calls me for references, I can only (1) confirm employment dates and (2) confirm salary. When called, I cannot discuss the candidate’s performance or anything beyond employment dates and salary. Even validation of track record is problematic in such environment which is becoming the norm (here in the USA).Today, most likely, thefirst gate keeper is a drop-down box in the career section of the employer’s site, along with check boxes of “relevant certifications”, along with check boxes on… How then can one high light his deep enthusiasm, his years of tinkering, his deep interesting in the subject matter, his dedication, his relentless drive towards success, …?No passport, no entry. That is the sad state of the world today in most large corporations.And I absolutely agree – with education on the decline, a paper doesn’t even mean squat. But how can he distinct himself/herself from the 10,000 others as he click the check-boxes on that “career corner” of the website and get pass not even HR, but first get pass some JAVA code or ASPX code on the website?He needs to be "SELECTED" by that SQL SELECT firstbefore he even has a chance.I don’t have answers. I don’t even have suppositions. I have a lot of doubts about how we select and deploy our resources.Rick

author: Bored@Work
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2013, 05:35:15 am
content: Quote from: Rick Law on April 26, 2013, 04:11:16 amLet me pick up that argument. If it becomes easier and easier to get that piece of paper, it looks even worse if someone doesn't have the piece of paper. If every dummy can get one ...It is the age-old argument I keep hearing from a special kind of non-degree holders. The "I could get a degree any time I want, I just don't feel like getting one." Sure. And that is how they do their job "I could if I would.".Four years of study form boys into men. Not necessarily the right kind of men, but it is for the HR department to sort out the conmen, alcoholics, posers, etc. When I did a bit of teaching at a uni it was very apparent when one looked at the faces of freshmen boys compared to soon to graduate men. People get out of parent's house the first time in their life for longer than a weekend, have to care about their own stuff, finally have to find their own way of how to learn and dig into unknown subjects. Schedule their own time, set priorities. They have to show some perseverance to stick to the studies, and probably keep a stupid job like waiting tables at the same time.As you can guess, I am not for the modern style of pampering university, but that is another issue.But what I want to say is that there is more to getting a degree than just getting the basic technical skills.Further, people can claim as of then as they want that they "never" use anything they learned at their university. This is simply not true. They use that knowledge implicitly, without even recognizing that it is some skill they learned at university. Because it became natural to them.

author: Balaur
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 26, 2013, 07:03:25 am
content: Quote from: HackedFridgeMagnet on April 26, 2013, 12:54:10 amNormally, I would not have disagree with you. However, in electronics, that's a pretty bold assumption.Let's see:- From the 12+ technical people in my company, 7 of them are PhDs, plus another two that are on the way of preparing their own PhD (and one of them is senior, 20+ years of experience!). All of them were trained in the highly specialized field required for their current work. They are highly skilled people, pretty competitive and really down to earth.- I'm pretty close to the research world, keeping close ties with professors, conferences and so on. From what I can see, a majority of PhD students have an opportunity to work in the same field as their studies.I don't claim that this is the universal state of things, it's just representative of the electronics industry in my field (or in my limited experience). I agree that things can be different in fundamental physics (I know a lot of PhD students there) or literature (poor people there have no scholarships and they don't have the luxury of focusing only on research).Best regards,Dan

author: AndyC_772
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2013, 07:42:36 am
content: Personally I'd regard a degree as almost essential for a design engineer's role.I say "almost", because I have met one or two perfectly capable engineers who didn't have them, but they're very much the exception. I might be prepared to give a candidate the benefit of the doubt and a chance to prove themselves in an interview, but I might focus the discussion on more theoretical and academic topics than I would if a candidate has a good degree.For example, one topic I like to talk about in interviews is high speed transmission lines. I'd expect someone with a degree to already know something about wave propagation, so I'd ask practical questions about where to put termination resistors and why.On the other hand, if someone has worked in industry for a while but has no degree, I'd start by presenting a practical example similar to something they're bound to already have seen, and I'd ask them to describe how a wave would propagate and what I'd expect to measure at various points under idealised conditions.Why? Because it's pointless knowing that you 'just do' certain things without really understanding why you do them. It's a recipe for getting stuck and for delivering products that have bugs in that you have no clue how to solve.As I always say on the subject: experience is a great way to know how to approach problems you've seen before. Having a good degree is a great way to know how to approach problems you'venotseen before. Most engineers spend most of their time working on problems they've not seen before.

author: jpb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2013, 08:37:38 am
content: Perhaps what is most important is that getting a degree should be fun, a chance to meet people from very different backgrounds to have discussions about life and the universe and perhaps do silly things for a few years before you have to take everything seriously and start earning a living and paying a mortgage. Most of my friends were studying History, Law or other arts subjects - I probably wouldn't have got to know them if I'd gone straight into an engineering job in industry.I went back to university for a second time in my mid 40s. Even though I was a (very) mature student and I worked hard I really realised just how nice it was to be out of all the petty politics that seem to dominate the work place (just read Dilbert).My children are at the stage of going to university and deciding whether it is worth it with the enormous hike in fees in the UK. My main advice to them is to determine if they are going to enjoy the experience. Are they going to get more out of it than just a qualification and some possibly useful knowledge?My father studied Latin, Greek and Ancient History - not directly useful in any job except perhaps teaching, but I don't think he thought it was a waste of time and in fact felt it prepared him quite well for working in the civil service overseas which he did all his working life. University study should prepare you for critical thinking, to dig out information and think for yourself - this is very different from school where teachers tell you things as established facts and you're expected just to learn them.

author: Memphis
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2013, 09:58:18 am
content: I have to say that i studiet Bc. degree for 4 years and then Ing. degree for 2 years meanwhile i was working on half-time as a service man (servicing printers) and then as technical engineer (developer HW & SW) up to today (in full time of course) here in Czech republic.And i must say that it worth it. Now i have theoretical knowledge in electronics, models and systems, robotics, math...etc and also i have practical knowledge in developing HW & SW. So for me, it is not a problem to find good work in good position with good salary. And yes, i have started from zero (no money, no property) and now with my own hands at age of 27 i have my own car, property, life and other cool stuff thanx to my University, which learned me things what i need in my work.Only one thing was really hard, get up morning at 5.00 A.M went to school, then went to work and then went to home at 9:00 PM. But this is tax you have to pay, to get somewhere where you want to be and it is only for time, when you study.So the answer for others preparing from high school is, find the half-time reasonable work and go study University. %-BAfter that you can show projects, which you were worked on and also show theoretical knowledge which is needed too.

author: yrrapt
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2013, 11:15:31 am
content: Quote from: free_electron on April 25, 2013, 03:17:02 pmSeems a bit unbelievable.Derivatives: you must know about PIDs or basic reactive component equations i = dV/dt.Complex numbers: I'm sure you use FFTs and have need to know the phase in a filter.I don't think I even need to spell out the square root one.The maths bashing on this forum gets old sometimes...Tom

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2013, 02:29:18 pm
content: Quote from: Rick Law on April 25, 2013, 11:12:52 pmYou make a very valid point. I made sure to get low scores in all that side stuff.. I want the non-boring job !Now here's a scenario you did not tackle.Back to joe and jack. Both from the same university both black belt.... You don't know them apart from the, showing up as the two top notch students from the tae-kwon-do university.How do you discriminate... Joe did two tours in irak as a bodyguard for some bigwig.. Jack filled bags in a supermarket...Know what i'm saying ? One has field experience.. The other one knows the thery and passed the 'calibrated test'.Put them both in a dangerzone and one will know what to do And apply his training. The other one may leave a brown mark on the floor and cower under a table....

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2013, 02:53:11 pm
content: Quote from: yrrapt on April 26, 2013, 11:15:31 amIts a joke ! But.. Pid ? That's a library.. You plug some coefficients in and it self-tunes. Fft ? Same story. I don't write fft algorithms. I use them. I don't need complex numbers. Give me amplitude and phase. Thank you ...As for the square root : any 2 cent calculator can do that... Why do i need to know how to do it by hand without a calculator ? It's irrelevant , time wasting and boring. It's a problem that has been solved a million times before. I am not interested how it is done, i'm interested in doing it the most efficient way. After all, that's how the industry works.If you calculate the series resistor for the led do you really need to know the physics of how the photons are formed ? And why this particular chemistry creates a drop of about 1.4 volts at 20mA. You dont. You take the supply voltage, suntract the led voltage, divide by desired current. And adjust the value found upward to the nearest matching so you stay in the safe zone.Yes you need maths, i'm not going to deny that. But there is too much a focus on stuff that is irrelelvant. Imagine someone designing an opamp filter circuit and performing all calculation using pencil , paper and the preprinted sin/cos tables. Doing long division by hand .. If the boss finds out that guy will get a swift kick in the pants... Why are you wasting time. We have calculators, spice simulators and all this other stuff that makes the job easier and faster and you do long divisions by hand ?Now, if your goal is to design the next big thing in filters: by all means follow a study in applied mathematics, become a math wiz ! Go for it! If that is your cup of tea by all means.But, realise that that stuff is a narrow part of fundamental research. You can do that at a university and in research depts of large companies. The brunt of the engineering work does not do that. They take the theoretical stuff and transform it into practical. And that's where the hard bit is... The theory is incomplete and does not compensate for the real world problems ... Non-ideal parts, layout problems, etc... The maths don't work (very well) in that case.Now, in a large development organisation you need both kind of engineers. You need the theory guys, but you also need the practical guys. And the ratio is 5/95...There is a reason they call it a research and development division. 5 procent research and 95 development.Anything i write is from my world perspective. I do development (and sometimes research as well. As why does this damn component behave the way it does.... Lets sweep it at temp, volt,current , crunch the data and try to find why it messes up the system).Let the research guys come up with the next new algorithm to calculate a square root. I'll plonk it in a cpu and use it. Thank you. Now let's move on..

author: RRobot
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2013, 02:54:51 pm
content: I've worked a long time (in a lot of industries) and from what I've seen, when non-degree'd people want to succeed in companies which typically require degree's (usually larger companies), they pretty much have to be exceptional.I've seen it done, but you can't be average or even good. You have to be unusually good, which means you have not only the interest, but the genes as well.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 26, 2013, 03:30:20 pm
content: Quote from: Rufus on April 26, 2013, 12:56:52 pmI'm not sure what your point is but it comes across very badly. ethnicity will have a limited effect and your experience is also governed by your personal circumstances. Black people are probably just as capable but maybe they have other interests where an equal amount of skill is required.

author: yrrapt
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2013, 03:37:05 pm
content: Quote from: free_electron on April 26, 2013, 02:53:11 pmI see your point and it is a valid one but to me it still seems like you're condoning a world where engineers should just use these tools blindly with no understanding of how they achieve their results. To use an analogy, it's like using an oscilloscope for your whole life without ever opening it and understanding how that scope gives you pretty lines on the screen even though you yourself are not likely to ever build your own scope. To my mind that's not really a great position to be in and could potentially mean you're not going to get the best results out of that scope, or PID or FFT etc.Relating it to the thread topic, that's where university can be good, it forces you to learn these bits that you may not have learnt otherwise and it gives you a fuller understanding of how to use the tools when you do come to use them.Tom

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2013, 03:39:39 pm
content: Quote from: free_electron on April 26, 2013, 02:29:18 pmFirst, I am sure you know I was making a point about "blind" decision making - when the person at the other end knows nothing of you but the caricature-on-paper you can create of yourself.I will play along - if I must pick a fight with Joe or Jack and they both are black-bell in Tae-Kwon-Do, I will look them in the eye and see who lease want to fight. When it comes to martial arts, the one who lease want to fight likely is the one better at it.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2013, 03:42:27 pm
content: Quote from: Rick Law on April 26, 2013, 03:39:39 pmthat's another valid point. it's supposed to be for defense, not offense...

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2013, 03:48:15 pm
content: Quote from: free_electron on April 26, 2013, 02:29:18 pmYou missed by point. In the situation of large companies, a GOOD likelihood exists that for those with good field experience but no degree, their resume will never get to the right person. It will not come off the other side of "SELECT WHERE ... ORDERED BY ..." And for the most part, since HR is likely not staffed by the best engineers, the one doing the SQL with eye-balls will not have your keen eyes.RickEDIT: added the word GOOD in GOOD likelihood. It is not just a likelihood, it is a better than 50-50.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2013, 03:52:17 pm
content: Quote from: yrrapt on April 26, 2013, 03:37:05 pmi'm all for exploring how things work and the deeper understanding.but there is also other things at playt. namely : real world...i gave the 5/95 example. guess who ends up in the 5% ... it ain't the engineers.. it's the phd's !My 'math bashing' comes from practical experience. i see way too much peple with all the theoretical stuff you can imagine, and they can't figure out why a simple integrator circuit made with 1 resistor, 1 cap, and one opamp is so 'drifty' and noisy'. It's an integrator... how can it be noisy ?According to the maths and calculations everything should work.Que the 'seasoned engineer' :- Well.. you do know the difference between film , foil , mica and ceramic caps do you ? oh no ? ah, must be because it can't be poured in a formula then ...- You do at least know what np0 and x7r mean then .. no ? ah , again .. can't be poured in an equation ..- How about the polarity of the integrator cap. ? ... But it's an unpolarized one .. oho young grasshopper. that's where you are wrong again... ever heard about the inner foil/outer foil of an upolarized wound capacitor ? like where do i connect the outer foil and the inner foil ? maybe you should flip the integrator cap around... it may work better with the outer foil attached to the opamps output so it is conected to a low impedance point and shield the inner foil attached to the high impedance input of the opamp... try pouring that one in an equation...The maths only bring you so far... the rest is hard work. Even edison knew that. 5% inspiration , 95% perspiration...

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2013, 04:37:38 pm
content: Quote from: yrrapt on April 26, 2013, 03:37:05 pmTom, I think there is a mindset difference. Free-electron is interested in a certain things and shows a desire to remain in that arena alone. Nothing wrong with that as long as "no one moved his cheese."Those from a different background and with a different frame of reference will have different views.I see the "side stuff" as differentiating factors when the main thing is a tie (or close). If an employer merely wants someone to “dig into that”, there is no point in hiring someone with a lot of other potentials and with the price tag of someone with a lot of other potentials.You are likely aware of this (below) already; Free-electron made his choice; but for the ones still deciding: Andy Grove was a great engineer in his time and he was also a great CEO. Had he preferred to stay an engineer: his business-financial management skill, his business savvy, his keen eye on the market, so forth, are all useless had he stayed an engineer. Andy’s boss would know that, and Andy by the choice of “who cares about those other things” would have chosen of path that excluded CEO being a possibility.Life is about choices. As long as one made a choice and happy with the results, one could have a happy life.Another quote:“You are where you are today because of the choices you made yesterday. If you don’t like where you are today and want to be elsewhere tomorrow, start making choices differently today.”Free-electron is happy where he is. He made the right choice for himself. As long he doesn’t need the answer to the question “Who Moved My Cheese”, or he is well prepared when the Cheese is no longer there, more power to him.I am beginning to think about college with my daughter. This seems applicable to share:In years past, I have been teaching my own child: “A company will need all kinds, from the ones cleaning the toilet, to the ones who has his own private wash room in his/her office, and everything in between. Make your choices – you want to be cleaning the toilet, that is fine – just make sure you can have a happy life doing that because the choices you are making today will set the available options you have tomorrow.”Rick

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2013, 04:55:01 pm
content: This is a time for a joke to lighten the air. Free-electron, this joke is for you, it looks like you would actually enjoy it. Some engineer told this joke when we were in college and were talking about mindset differences between those in theoretical sciences vs engineering:One day, there was a theorem written on the white-board: “All odd numbers between 1 and 15 are primes.”Amathematicianwalk by: Hmm… 2 is a prime, 3 is a prime, 5 is a prime, 7 is a prime, 9… 9 is not a prime. Theorem wrong.Aphysicistwalk by: Hmm… 2 is a prime, 3 is a prime, 5 is a prime, 7 is a prime, 9… 9 is not a prime, 11 is a prime, 13 is a prime. 6 out of 7. Probably experimental error. Theorem could be right.Anengineerwalk by: Hmm… 2 is a prime, 3 is a prime, 5 is a prime, 7 is a prime, 9… 9… OH MY GOOD, 9 is a prime. I was wrong all these years! I never knew 9 is a prime!

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2013, 05:08:37 pm
content: Hahaa..Here's another one:An engineer , a physicist and a mathematician stay i. The same hotel but indifferent rooms. For some reason at midnight their bedspread catches fire.The engineer gets up , fills the trashcan with water from the faucet in the bathroom, pours it over the bed and goes to sleep on the sofa.The physicist carefully calculates the amount of btu's produced and the surface are , fills the trashacan with a precisely measured amount of water and pours it over the bed , then goes to sleep on the sofa.The mathematician looks around. Opens the tap and sees water come out. He exclaims : a solution exists ! And as fires have been put out in the past it is proven. Then he sits down on the sofa, watching the burning bed wondering if a simpler solution exists and if it is applicable to all bedspreads...

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2013, 05:25:28 pm
content: Quote from: Rick Law on April 26, 2013, 04:37:38 pmYou have a very valid point there.I am happy where i am. I want to tinker with componetns and build things so i can watch em with satisfaction at the end of the day. It works, it's usefull, i learned something. I had fun. I'm happy and got paid for it.Your Andy grove example raises a big question though.. Why do you want to be in engineering ? To do as i do ? Or to become a manager and ceo ? That is a question to ask yourself.I dont want to be ceo or manager. It would take my kind of 'fun' away. I can not imagine myself sitting at a desk never to touch a solderin iron again.. Being dragged from meeting to meeting and dinner to dinner. Making 'slideware' and powerpoint presentations. Not my cup of tea.But, as you said a company needs all kinds of people. From the janitor to the ceo.But, why spend 4 years learning engineering and electronics if your ultimate goal is to become ceo ? Just go do an mba or go to business school !Then again, you may not know at an early age what you want to become. Who know. Maybe ten years from now i will be bored with electronics ( i don't think so but never say never.. ) and decide i want to become a scuba instructor.For me ( i can only give my experience as i perceive it. Everything anyone posts here on the forum in these kind of topics is always a point of perception , either his own or a reflected one. ) , i knew from childhood i wanted electronics. I found that stuff fascinating. You take some sand, some carbon , some wire , heat it , connect it together apply a battery and it produces music ! Wow ! Imagine that. A bunch of refined sand with some impurities, some bots of scrap metal to make caps , some carbon te make resistors and some wire to tie it together... And it picks up a signal from the air and makes a bit of paper vibrate... A radio.. Made with sand, metal and carbon !As a kid this was wizardry !Figuring out solution for problems is so much fun.I have my cheese and i move with it. I'm not interested in breeding milkcows to produce the milk to make the cheese.

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2013, 06:11:48 pm
content: Quote from: free_electron on April 26, 2013, 05:25:28 pmExactly. You made your choice and you are happy with it. Who am I to argue with you what you should want?The original poster JMC2000 is making his choice and he asked. So we are both sharing our experiences with JMC2000. He sees comments from all angles and now it is up to him to decide. As we all hope, he will assess his options and make the choice best for him. After all, "We are where we are today because of the choices we made yesterday." We would all wish the best for him.Rick

author: yrrapt
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2013, 07:09:56 pm
content: Quote from: Rick Law on April 26, 2013, 04:37:38 pmYeah, that's fair enough.free_electron, apologies if I came across like I came across like I was directing myself at you personally or your choices. It was more of a culmination discussions I've seen on the subject on the forum over time that I aired in admittedly not the most appropriate thread.Tom

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2013, 08:51:11 pm
content: Quote from: yrrapt on April 26, 2013, 07:09:56 pmI think I speak for all of us participating in this discussion thatour vigor in our presentation of our ideas is due to our firm believe in the advice we are giving. I don't think anyone needs to apologize for the vigor of our help sincewe all conducted ourselves in a respectful and dignify manner.Rick

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2013, 11:42:37 pm
content: @Tom : no need for an apology. you made some very valid points. Actually i do apologize if i come over as a math-basher. I bash "irrelevant math". I am lazy by nature. if i can get away without the complicated bits i will. The theory is not exiting to me. the practical implementation is. if i need a square root to calculate like 1/V.pi.f.c i wi use it. but i'm NOT interested i the root pulling algorithm.It comes back to the things is also say about certain other subjects (operating systems):Do you want to make screwdrivers , or do you want to use a screwdriver to construct something ?if you wanna make screwdrivers : become a mathematician. if you want to put a screw in two pieces of wood to keep them together you need math to figure out how strong the screw needs to be for the load it will carry. the math required to make screwdrivers is irrelevant for the task.

author: larry42
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 27, 2013, 01:11:32 am
content: Quote from: free_electron on April 25, 2013, 03:17:02 pmI suck at maths, but I respect maths as well. I know the concept of complex numbers and derivatives, but can't derive anything now, hardly even the formulas for a capacitor. The best engineers IMHO are those that are good at maths, but who can relate it to the real world. Saying that "you can show a bunch of electrons the equations all day long" is a cop-out. It works up to a point, but once you really need to design something (such as a power supply, a ultrasound front-end or a 1GHz amplifier) then you actually do need to put in some maths to get a result. I would be wary of employing someone in an EE position if they don't have a piece of paper in EE or a related field to prove it. The degree is not enough, but it's an important step.So yes, a summation sign in an FFT puts me to sleep, but they are necessary to understand. I'd better open my Kreizig book again soon... FWIW degree in science (first) followed by master in RF engineering (distinction), currently CTO and senior IEEE member (I guess they were desperate).

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 27, 2013, 02:40:36 am
content: I think a degree is very important for most "real" jobs in the electronics world.I do not have a degree in EE. I went to university for computer science and mechanical engineering. I did an internship after college at a big US electronics company and I remember spending a week with a senior engineer who had been working for 2 months on a ball mount for a satellite dish... we had meetings discussing whether it should be made of this plastic or that, and what size set screw to put in the side and managerial reviews about whether the screw should be steel or aluminum, and if steel, whether it should be plated.I was a young guy who wanted to work for the car companies building race cars. I realized that most engineers don't build race cars. They design cover panels for air conditioners or if they work in the automotive industry, they design an air vent for the new Honda. Boring. So I never worked as an engineer, despite it being my education. I worked in software, which I was always good at. After some time, I started my own company, and about 1/4 of what I do is electronics, about 1/4 is mechanical stuff, about 1/4 is machining/production, and the other 1/4 is running the business... sales, managing my employees, accounting, etc. I have a very wide skill set, but it's not as deep as someone who went to college for any of my skills. I know a lot about the specific areas of electronics I work in, but I know very little about high voltage or high-speed/RF. And most of what I know about analog is from when I was young reading Forest Mims books or playing with my Radio Shack 300-in-one electronics kits. I suppose the same may happen with "real" engineers? I know that in college I had to deal with statics and dynamics., different kinds of loads and how to calculate failures, etc. Nowadays, that stuff is all done in FEA software, and I've forgotten most of the engineering... and meanwhile I've learned a lot more about some parts of engineering like manufacturing, machining, the suitability and properties of the specific materials that I use.I sometimes wonder if I would be able to get a job for someone else... I think my mechanical engineering background is useless since I haven't done any of that for 20 years. I'm not sure if I would ever get a job in electronics since I'm not degrees. And I would never want to work for machinist wages. I could do project management but I hate sitting around herding cats all day. I am qualified to be a CEO of a small or medium manufacturing company, but I tend to doubt they hire out for those kinds of jobs

author: westfw
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 27, 2013, 03:56:01 am
content: QuoteWell, there's the heart of the matter.An employer would like you to be "highly trained" for exactly the problem they want you to solve.A college degree doesn't prove that, but you can generally expect someone with a particular degree to have certain knowledge. If your company has become adept at taking such college graduates and turning them into useful contributors, they will know which colleges' degrees and areas of study are worthwhile, wand what questions to ask in a interview to separate the good candidates from the less good candidates. This generally happens with rather large companies. They have their system and they probably stick to it, and it probably works pretty well.Several years experience spent doing something similar (or exactly the same) is good, especially if it's specialized enough. Especially if you're famous and brilliant and famously brilliant. Are you?Several years spent 'studying on your own' in a vaguely similar discipline is ... not very comforting.The people who get snapped up by employers are the ones who got the degree, AND studied on their own (or by choice of minor beyond the curriculum into the specific field in question, AND managed to produce credible projects (either on their own or as part of the degree program.) In my day, one of the ways to do this was to have software expertise as well as that EE degree. By the time I graduated, I had at least three "open source" (it wasn't called that back then) programs out on the internet, an on-campus computer job, and an EE degree, and I found a job that was pretty perfect for me.I wasn't crazy about school, but it sure provided the background environment and resources to do those other things...

author: AndyC_772
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 27, 2013, 08:13:45 am
content: Quote from: westfw on April 27, 2013, 03:56:01 amThis is a very valid point - not just when considering entry level engineering jobs, but the wider jobs market as as whole.For most of my professional career I've been 'the electronics guy' for a variety of small companies. This has meant teaching myself much of the time, and it's meant I've had to turn my hand to all manner of disciplines: power supplies, FPGAs, EMC, high speed processors and production testing to name but a few. Generally speaking I think I've done a pretty good job, and I've not had too many complaints.But: advertised jobs for 'the electronics guy' are pretty few and far between. They're greatly outnumbered by ads for "FPGA engineer, 3 yrs minimum experience required" and the like - and whether or not I actually have the skill to do such a job properly, I might struggle to be hired against similarly qualified people who have done nothing else but that one specific discipline for some years.If you want someone to design a 1M+ gate ASIC prototype then I'm not the engineer you're looking for - but if you want someone who knows how to take that prototype and lay out a board for it with power, I/O, memory, EMI/ESD filtering, JTAG and cooling, I'm willing to bet I'd do a better job of it than an "FPGA engineer".

author: jpb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 27, 2013, 10:04:12 am
content: Quote from: AndyC_772 on April 27, 2013, 08:13:45 amThis is very true for almost all professional technical roles. I was in semiconductors but had been programming for over 20 years (I learned FORTRAN before I went to university) so I decided to get a job in software. Unfortunately I had no qualifications as my degree was in Engineering. It was very hard to even get looked at as CVs were all filtered by external job agencies who were just looking for tick boxes.The problem from the employers point of view is experience is expensive (they assume someone who has been working for a few years wants to be paid more than someone entering their first job expects to get). So they don't want to pay for experience that is not relevant to them.

author: jmc2000
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2013, 02:29:17 am
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on April 25, 2013, 11:24:40 pmI agree with you, raw EE graduates tend to be useless for the first two years if they've never done electronics as a hobby. One of the best analogue designers I've ever come across "failed" his 11+, did a HNC in mechanical engineering, and decided to switch to electronics just out of interest. Yet despite this, he rediscovered small signal transistor analysis using H parameters etc, and designed stuff that his univeristy trained manager would describe as miraculous.Given your level of competence as shown in your videos, you could be anywhere from someone who studied at a good unversity in the UK, to a gifted amateur who wanted to earn money as quickly as possible. It's difficult to tell with people in general.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2013, 02:47:31 am
content: Quote from: jmc2000 on April 28, 2013, 02:29:17 amI think fresh graduates in any engineering discipline will spend their first two years at work learning more than they productively contribute. Traditionally larger companies have called these two years their "graduate training program" and have organized job rotations through various departments so their new hires can learn as much as possible. Smaller companies may not have this luxury and their new graduate hires learn the job in a less formal atmosphere, but it is still recognized there is much to learn.It's unfair to use the word useless (unless you have made a bad hiring decision), but you certainly can't expect a fresh graduate to be able to do as much as a seasoned engineer.

author: MrPlacid
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2013, 07:06:16 am
content: Quote from: vk6zgo on April 26, 2013, 03:45:07 amOne of these days (in the distant future), EE will be taught in public schools (as a requirement) and it will require a year to complete at 1 hours per day.

author: Fuse_Burner
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 29, 2013, 02:11:01 am
content: I'm wondering the same thing.I spent 20 years as a machinist, 10 self employed, no degree. I worked from blueprints, or reverse engineered, or from napkin math, or having ideas bounced off of me from degreed mechanical engineers. I was good and I loved the work, give me a problem and I could solve it. I could rebuild any machine and make unavailable worn out parts on existing machines from scratch.So with the decline in manufacturing and several local plant closings, I eventually closed down and went to work at a local class 8 truck assembly plant. It was hard after being self employed for 10 years, but I figured the ladder would be easy to climb. Boy was I wrong ....... I needed a degree in culinary arts, or liberal arts, or basically and degree to get off of the line.I had people with no mechanical background at all above me. Talk about frustrating, I was dancing when I got laid off!So while I was there, I started an AAS in electronics, and now that I'm drawing unemployment for the 1st time in my life I'm hammering down on this degree.But do I use that to get back into an assembly environment, or something more specialized? Will it be worth anything at all?I have several projects here and have played with radios for some time, but comms is kind of a weird industry.I don't know. I'm hoping 20 years of mechanical experience, and an AAS in electronics makes me well rounded. It's impossible to make up for 20 years of experience in some studies and a degree.

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 29, 2013, 03:05:52 am
content: If one pause to consider:Most EE companies probably doesn't assign their best engineers to the HR department.Most software companies probably doesn't assign their best programmers to the HR department.Most chemical companies probably doesn't assign their best chemist to the HR department....Beyond pre-graduation recruitment visits to the university that companies some times conduct, a candidate must prepare oneself for a world where your first contact with a possible employer is via a computer screen, then perhaps a head-hunter, then perhaps HR, then a few more phone calls, then perhaps you get to talk to someone who knows you do mean "test a diode" and not "testing a diet"...I am exaggerating for sure, just using exaggeration to make the point easier to describe.Rick

author: Fuse_Burner
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 29, 2013, 03:28:25 am
content: The truck company I referenced is actually 2 companies. It's non union, but all company employees are with the the parent company, all floor employees are with the named brand company.And yes, you need to be degreed to cross that chasm.