Good electronics simulator for beginner? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / beginners

author: hamiltont
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 02, 2019, 05:40:02 pm
content: Hi folks,Curious what others are using to simulate small example/learning circuits. I currently usehttp://everycircuit.com(both the webapp and the mobile) which is fantastic for me - love the ease of graphing any of the circuit points so I can instantly see relationships e.g. watching inductors resist current changes in real time. Love that I can dilate time easily - this is a big deal as a lot of what I am playing with I just don't have oscilloscope bandwidth to catch in real life.My only big complaint is that the app kills my CPU, even on simple circuits, and can crash (so I'm now used to saving my work frequently).Does anyone have recommendations on beginner-friendly simulators?

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 02, 2019, 05:46:03 pm
content: I like the one below. It's simple and doesn't require an account or logging in like Everycircuit.https://www.falstad.com/circuit/circuitjs.html

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 02, 2019, 10:29:12 pm
content: LTspice

author: Wimberleytech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2019, 02:41:15 am
content: Quote from: rstofer on January 02, 2019, 10:29:12 pmDitto.I am a recent adopter to LTSpice. It took me a bit to make it do what I expect from spice (give me control of models). While it may not be the most user friendly simulator, it is the best thing going for free, hands down.Just invest the time and learn it and there will be no turning back!!

author: beanflying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2019, 03:06:59 am
content: QuoteYep

author: Wimberleytech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2019, 03:19:20 am
content: Quote from: beanflying on January 03, 2019, 03:06:59 amYeah, he was a funny guy. He certainly had valuable insight, but he refused to change with the times. We would not be having this conversation now if solder were the only simulation tool.

author: beanflying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2019, 03:29:03 am
content: There was some caveats to that line by him too about Spice having a place for optimization and tweaking after you get a prototype working to save time. (not an exact quote but that was the idea)Letting the smoke out of some components on a bread or vero board has more learning value but then I am old too

author: Wimberleytech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2019, 03:38:01 am
content: Quote from: beanflying on January 03, 2019, 03:29:03 amMy first Spice simulation was using punch cards on an Amdahl 360 but I spent most of my time (back then) in the lab. I love and appreciate (and respect) Spice and the lab!

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2019, 04:04:46 am
content: IBM Electronic Circuit Analysis Program (ECAP) for the IBM 1130 computer that I used in college '69-'73. There weren't a lot of students with unlimited computer access in those days.It did DC Steady State, AC and Transient Analysis. It also did sensitivity analysis for iterating over changes in component values. The only problem was it just printed pages and pages of output. I changed the code to punch the data to cards and wrote a little ditty to read the cards and produce a plot on the drum plotter. My Bode' plots were a thing of art.I have the source code and the 360 version of the documentation but I don't recall whether I ever got it loaded on my FPGA incantation of the 1130.

author: FrankBuss
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 03, 2019, 04:24:28 am
content: Use LTspice. Works on Windows, Mac and Linux (with Wine). Learning it takes some time, but there are lots of videos on Youtube and documentation for it, and you can create and test simple circuits with it in minutes. And it is used in the industry as well by professionals. So if you know it already, it will help you later, too, when you know more. Falstad etc. won't help you much for complicate tasks.

author: Wimberleytech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2019, 01:32:38 pm
content: Quote from: rstofer on January 03, 2019, 04:04:46 amI remember ECAP but never used it. You are 'slightly' older than I!!

author: Bassman59
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2019, 10:55:03 pm
content: Quote from: hamiltont on January 02, 2019, 05:40:02 pmAnother vote here for LTSpice.

author: MarkL
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 04, 2019, 04:45:41 pm
content: I've been using Qucs (Quite Universal Circuit Simulator) for many years. Works well for me.http://qucs.sourceforge.net/index.html

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 04, 2019, 05:02:19 pm
content: Quote from: Bassman59 on January 03, 2019, 10:55:03 pmLTSpice is a lot more clunky and less friendly than the more modern real-time simulators. Having things move and change in real-time is a boon. I'm not saying LTSpice isn't a very useful tool, but they seem to do somewhat different things. Real-time is good for seeing what circuits do as you mess with them and getting to grips with certain basics, whereas LTSpice is ultimately more versatile and a real engineering tool. They can supplement each other perfectly well.

author: Eaglecrest
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: January 05, 2019, 03:57:15 pm
content: QuotePlease explain the point here and examples of what you seem to believe is a better approach.

author: mdszy
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 05, 2019, 04:14:22 pm
content: I can also recommend LTSpice. Real time and flashy doesn't mean it's professional software. LTSpice is very basic-looking, isn't real time, but is incredibly flexible. If there's any analog chip you want to simulate, just google "[part number] spice model" and, odds are, you can find what you need.I've used LTSpice all throughout college for varying levels of electronics classes and it has never failed me. It's great to learn how to use SPICE software in general since many of them work very similarly, and LTSpice is free and especially good in my opinion.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 05, 2019, 04:37:02 pm
content: I chose LTspice when I commented above. Yes, it's excellent.But one level up, at a system view, MATLAB and Simulink do an excellent job. Instead of dealing with individual op amps as integrators, I can just plug in an integrator to a model. In effect, I can create an analog computer solution to a system. This is clearly the domain of physical analog computers but they're not in favor at the moment. Obsolete... Maybe "old school"...BTW, LTspice does a nice job at the system level as well. I have some models of integrators that I can just drop in to a schematic.There is an Electronics pack for MATLAB but I haven't played with it.The reason I bring up MATLAB is that there is a concurrent thread about explaining a capacitor. I wanted to graph the charge and discharge curves and it is easy to do this in MATLAB.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 05, 2019, 04:53:41 pm
content: Quote from: Eaglecrest on January 05, 2019, 03:57:15 pmI'm not sure what you're asking for. LTSpice isn't real-time, whereas other simulators are. Seeing how things move around can help a lot, especially for beginners.

author: Wimberleytech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 05, 2019, 05:18:10 pm
content: Quote from: rstofer on January 05, 2019, 04:37:02 pmMATLAB is not cheap. Are using the HOME version (which is reasonable)? Octave is cheap (free...of course).

author: hamiltont
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 05, 2019, 05:33:58 pm
content: Thanks for the input folks!

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 05, 2019, 06:39:23 pm
content: Quote from: Wimberleytech on January 05, 2019, 05:18:10 pmYes, I am definitely using the Home edition of MATLAB. There's no way I can afford a commercial license! I also have a few add-ons that add to the annual fee. Simulink is one and it is fantastic! The Arduino interface package is pretty slick.Octave will run the same exact script (generally). I don't find the graph output as pleasing and I need to change the fontsize in the various titles but, other than that, Octave works well. I haven't pursued add-ons with Octave.MATLAB is pretty well respected in industry. If I were going to specialize in MATLAB vs Octave, it would be MATLAB first. For whatever reason, industry doesn't always line up for open source software. Octave is still a first rate solver. If I was tight for money or a fan of open source, Octave would be my first choice.

author: Wimberleytech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 05, 2019, 07:48:01 pm
content: Quote from: rstofer on January 05, 2019, 06:39:23 pmIndeed we used at all of the places where I have worked.The kind of work I do not generally does not call for signal processing, so I cannot justify the cost. If I take a case that needs it, I will justify the cost...always like buying new things!!!I have octave installed for the rare need.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 05, 2019, 08:44:54 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on January 05, 2019, 04:53:41 pmI agree that real time simulation can be beneficial for beginners, but woudn't recommend using it much beyond educational purposes.The problem with any simulator is knowing its limitations.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 05, 2019, 08:49:27 pm
content: Quote from: Zero999 on January 05, 2019, 08:44:54 pmAgreed. Part of the issue seems to be that LTSpice was developed a while ago now, while these real-time simulators are more modern. The latter also seem to be less mature and more frivolous, sometimes omitting quite a bit of detail. It seems likely that they'll sooner or later mature, or that LTSpice or a successor evolve to include these more modern features. It's undeniable that LTSpice and compatible simulators are well supported by various manufacturers with all kinds of components being available, which is part of their value and why they endure.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 05, 2019, 11:20:52 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on January 05, 2019, 08:49:27 pmReal-time simulators are optimised for speed and not much else.LTSpice is optimised for accuracy and is designed to be flexible and give repeatable results.The requirements for real time simulators and more professional ones such as LTSpice are conflicting. It's not possible to make a real-time simulator as accurate and repeatable as LTSpice. Take a simple circuit with a push-button switch for example. In a real time simulator, the user will click on the switch component, to get the circuit to respond. In LTSpice, the user would implement it as a time controlled resistor, a voltage, or current controlled switch, with set on/off and rise/fall times. The interactive approach of the real-time simulator may seem easy and intuitive, but it's not as repeatable as the LTSpice approach, because it relies on user input, which is non-repeatable.

author: Audioguru
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2019, 01:45:40 am
content: Hi Zero. Why didn't you change your avatar to Zorro999?

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2019, 04:26:53 am
content: Quote from: Zero999 on January 05, 2019, 11:20:52 pmI don't really see anything which can't be solved. You can make real-time simulators repeatable by adding keyframes or something similar. The biggest problem seems to be none are actually aiming to be accurate, which is understandable as it's a big step up from just being sort of similar.

author: TheUnnamedNewbie
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2019, 08:20:51 am
content: I'm sorry, but what even is a real-time simulator?I also started out with LTSpice but I hate it. I would suggest one of the more intuitive tools online for a beginner. Sure, it is not as powerful and accurate as a SPICE engine, but you don't need ultra-high accuracy for what most beginners are doing. You are a beginner, not a professional. You don't 'need' professional tools. Sure, the online ones are not professional, but they work and are fast to learn! (oh and LTSpice is not really a 'professional' tool either)SPICE is a bit clumsy - it can take a lot of 'setup' to do simple simulations. They are engineering tools after all. I use SPICE very often in my work, but it requires you to set up rigorous 'experiments' and spend time creating output graphs of stuff - all of which is fine if you are going to spend many $ on CMOS tapeouts and it has to beperfect.An advantage of SPICE is that you can import netlists, so you can export the netlist from your PCB software (Altium, KiCAD, orCAD, etc) and then simulate that circuit. Takes some work to do library-wise, but can be beneficial to set it up if you do a lot of analog design with PCBs (ofcourse, Altium and Allegro and xpedition all have this stuff built in).Quote from: Mr. Scram on January 05, 2019, 08:49:27 pmLTSpice is not the best example of an actual SPICE engine though. I always thought of it as a simple almost 'toy'-like simulator. It can do what, like 3 simulation types? Op, AC, transient? I don't know of any professional that uses it. Everyone professional I work with uses hspice, pspice, ELDO, Spectre(or SpectreRF) or GoldenGate. The reason there is industry support for LTSpice is not because of LTSpice, but because of the other SPICE engines, and LTSPICE just happens to be able to work with those models (since those are standardized).

author: DC1MC
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2019, 09:03:02 am
content: Since I didn't see mentioned here, what about Qucs:http://qucs.sourceforge.net/download.htmlIt's reasonable simple to use.Cheers,DC1MC

author: exe
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 06, 2019, 10:32:26 am
content: I used to use TINA-TI a lot. I like it more than LTSpice as it lets seeing plots from previous simulations. It seems to be dead now. I don't like ltspice UI (for many reasons), so I was looking for other simulators, but I'm on Linux, so my choice is limited. I think I tried pretty much everything worth trying, including paid software.My choice would be TINA if they had better pricing. I tried their cloud-based version. It was cheap (I think below $20 per year), but buggy and slow. So, don't recommend (unless they improved it, I tested it two years ago or so). TINA 10+ also got many new features beyond simulation, like pcb design etc, they were unusable when I was testing. Also some Linux-related problems (although they don't officially support Linux).QUCS didn't work for transient response analysis. There was a fork attempting to fix it, not sure if it's still alive and/or changes were merged back into original QUCS. UI is also non-intuitive, but that's a problem with most simulators. At least some knowledge about SPICE is needed (that's true about many other simulators too).There used to be a free version of pspice, dut I wasn't able to get it running on Linux.https://www.falstad.com/circuit/is a good choice for very small circuits, I use it sometimes. Afaik, it's open-source and it's possible to download it and run localy, if needed.There are other "cloud"-based simulators. I tried them all a couple of years ago, none made me happy. Some had horrible UI, some had ridiculous limitations and paid subscriptions, most of the don't let exporting design (imho). May be things are different now, Idunno.So, what I'm using now? Ltspice, it runs smoothly on Linux. Usability is questionable, learning curve is steep, range of available components is limited to what the developing company sells on the market, but I don't see an alternative for Linux users.Anyway, no matter what simulator is chosen, there is a learning curve. And don't blindly rely on any of them as they are as accurate as underlying models are. Also, keep in mind most simulators don't warn you when exceeding absolute maximum ratings, temperature, etc. There are many other aspects to keep in mind (ambient temperature, self-heating, tolerances, parasitic effects, etc) when using simulators.

author: Wimberleytech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2019, 02:39:49 pm
content: Quote from: TheUnnamedNewbie on January 06, 2019, 08:20:51 amAnalog Devices might beg to differ with you.https://www.analog.com/en/design-center/design-tools-and-calculators/ltspice-simulator.htmlQuoteBut if you are not at work, you can gen up a simulation very quickly with LTSpice...once you learn the basics of the tool.QuoteIndeed!QuoteWhoa!! Really? I encourage you to read up on the history of SPICE.

author: TheUnnamedNewbie
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2019, 03:17:03 pm
content: Quote from: Wimberleytech on January 06, 2019, 02:39:49 pmJust because Analog Devices advertises it, and people use it in a professional context, does not make it a professional tool. It is a very good tool for people who don'tQuote from: Wimberleytech on January 06, 2019, 02:39:49 pmI dissagree. Setting stuff up with LTSpice is still a lot more work than using one of the simple online tools, which is why I don't suggest LTSpice to a beginner. This is myoppinionand I never said it wasfact. You can do more with LTSpice than said online tools, but if you are a beginner (as is the context here) you are probably better of with the online tools.Quote from: Wimberleytech on January 06, 2019, 02:39:49 pmI'm not sure what you are trying to say here.When I made this statement, I mean that when I compare what I consider a modern, professional SPICE engine - ELDO, hspice, SPECTRE - to LTSpice, there is a huge difference in functionality. I often see people outside of the field point at LTSpice as some high-end 'professional' tool, but, in my opinion, it isn't. The first bit of evidence of this is in the license, where they explicitly state they do not provide support for people using LTSpice for any other reason than to evaluate their (=LT, now Analog) products. But it might just be a perspective thing.

author: Wolfgang
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2019, 04:04:15 pm
content: Quote from: hamiltont on January 02, 2019, 05:40:02 pmAfter starting off with 5Spice (shareware) about ten years ago which is either free (limited) or cheap (full version) I am now switching to LTSpice. The reason is that LTSpice is free, faster and has much more models that work there. The LTSpice GUI is awkward, though, and there *is* a learning curve to get used to it. For the german users there is an excellent tutorial by Gunthard Kraus (just google).

author: Wimberleytech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2019, 04:06:36 pm
content: QuoteLOL...quoting the license. YOU WIN!

author: Wolfgang
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2019, 04:12:03 pm
content: Quote from: TheUnnamedNewbie on January 06, 2019, 03:17:03 pmIIRC, the OM was asking for a beginners tool, not for a multi-K€ professional simulator. IMHO, the support for LTSpice on the web is not too bad. It is supported by LT (now Analog Devices) and user groups are very active.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2019, 05:12:05 pm
content: There is still an LTspice group on groups.yahoo.com and there are a few very knowledgeable people to help. Actually, there are two groups: One for discussions and the other as a repository for files (Yahoo has a repository size limit). There's a LOT of high quality help.I don't think simulators are targeted at beginners. Maybe Falstad but certainly none of the 'spice' type systems I have ever used.There are a couple of LTspice XVII eBooks at Amazon including:https://www.amazon.com/Electronic-Circuit-Simulator-Operation-Creation-ebook/dp/B07FCTVNGPhttps://www.amazon.com/Electronic-Circuit-Simulator-LTspice-Simulation-ebook/dp/B07H1WCTNJBoth are free with Kindle Unlimited

author: Wimberleytech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2019, 05:46:39 pm
content: QuoteAND...it is supported here by some very smart, very experienced people...who are eager to help!I would hazard a guess that NOBODY has ever posted an LTSpice file on this forum and not gotten their question resolved!!

author: Wolfgang
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2019, 05:54:50 pm
content: Quote from: Wimberleytech on January 06, 2019, 05:46:39 pmI wont go that far, but support *is* good, definitively.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2019, 07:19:21 pm
content: Quote from: TheUnnamedNewbie on January 06, 2019, 08:20:51 amOne which attempts to simulate the circuit in real time and interacts with the user. Fair enough most so-called real-time simulators are slower than real life, in most applications, as the calculations are complex and take a long to compute, but the idea is the user can click a switch to open/close it and see how the circuit respond to it.I don't want to get into a flame war about which simulation package is the best, because it's personal preference. I found LTSpice to be one of the easiest of simulators to learn, much easier than some of the suppository more intuitive ones such as Electronics Workbench and falstad. I like the way the GUI is simple and uncluttered. I've never understood why some find it difficult to learn but I accept that and take it into account when recommending simulation software to beginners.

author: Wolfgang
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2019, 07:26:24 pm
content: One of the LTSpice GUI gotchas is the mimic "action first, then choose object". Normal windows stuff works by right-clicking an object and then telling what should happen to it. Another things is leaks the pure crudity of ancient SPICE to the user. For subcircuits, ... you have to manually enter all SPICE parameters into forms with no cross-checking. Errors will be discovered only when you try to run your circuit.All rants aside, its a useful program and its free. So we probably have to live with this one.

author: exe
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 07, 2019, 11:17:50 am
content: Quote from: Zero999 on January 06, 2019, 07:19:21 pmFor me it's simple: for any "serious" simulation a knowledge of (ltspice-favored?) SPICE is required. Try making a bode plot without google. I also didn't manage to make a bode plot for any complicated circuit, error messages it produced didn't make any sense for me. In comparison, in TINA-TI I had almost zero issue, the same circuit just worked.Another gotcha: it lets adding components without choosing a model. It still will work, but results will be plain wrong (at least for mosfet).