Lightweight Window AirConditioner - Noria - Too good to be true? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: erandored
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: May 24, 2016, 06:43:47 pm
content: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/kurt/noria-cool-redefinedAlmost seems too good to be true. Worth looking into the specs they list to see if the math works. The price seems really low as well.

author: Photon939
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2016, 07:26:54 pm
content: Hey look, a crowdfunding project where they actually show some guts of the unit! I think I've been jaded by all the terrible Indiegogo scams lately.Efficiency and cooling capacity numbers are certainly in the range of possibility.The main downside I see of this unit is smaller size for a given cooling capacity means increased air velocity. Smaller coils get dirty faster.The photo of the refrigeration system looks the same as your typical window ac with the exception of a horizontally mounted rotary compressor.

author: edavid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2016, 07:45:02 pm
content: The only advantages are size and weight. Conventional window air conditioners cost $100-200 and often have higher EER than this one. Also, you don't have to wait until next year to get them

author: CanadianAvenger
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2016, 07:54:05 pm
content: Interesting, might be good for some small spaces.Not a fan of the exterior up-facing vent though. It really should be out-facing, or down-facing to protect the inside workings from rain [and any other falling debris].

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2016, 09:21:15 pm
content: The fresh air mode is really novel. All of the low end units I looked at did not have that, and it could save some energy, by say activating automatically when the outside temperature drops. As long as it has a good filter on the outside portion of the unit.The one I got has manually operated mini vent (to prevent CO2 buildup?), but this sounds much better.I would consider one but it can't be mounted vertically.

author: Richard Crowley
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2016, 09:29:03 pm
content: Quote from: erandored on May 24, 2016, 06:43:47 pmThat has become rather a cliché, hasn't it?

author: MarkS
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 25, 2016, 12:50:15 am
content: I went to school for HVAC and have designed phase change cooling for computers in the past. I'm not too thrilled by the design. There are some major issues with liquid slugging from lying a compressor on its side, although not as much with rotary compressors. However, rotary compressors (pictured in the Kickstarter link) are the loudest types, so I'm curious how they are keeping the noise down. Also, the condenser coil is about half the size of a typical 5000 BTU window unit, of which I currently have in my bedroom, so I'm curious how well it will be able to condense the refrigerant. I'm really curious about the efficiency and longevity of the unit.

author: mmagin
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2016, 12:51:24 am
content: 5000 BTU/hr is enough for a well-insulated bedroom. It's not much.

author: ez24
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2016, 01:08:19 am
content: Quote from: MarkS on May 25, 2016, 12:50:15 amSo have many others who put up their money to find out:200@$2491017@$299349@$54943@$82546@$1099 !!!!!!!!!!!!Can these numbers be real? A lot of nuts with money if real.

author: MadModder
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2016, 02:09:48 pm
content: And it only works with sliding windows. Everywhere else in the world where we use hinges on our windows, it's useless.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2016, 02:25:36 pm
content: And totally doesnt work if you dont have a sliding window.

author: rollatorwieltje
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 25, 2016, 02:52:55 pm
content: If the big AC suppliers cannot make a window unit small, why whould a random kickstarter campain be able to do it? They are big for a reason. The smallest units I've seen are marine units that use external water to dump the heat into. This Noria thing is about as big as the evaporator of a5000 btu Webasto, and somehow it manages to also contain the compressor, condensor and fans... Somehow I have a little bit more confidence in Webasto. I'm pretty sure the AC manufacturers would kill for a smaller unit, size is pretty much a key selling point for mobile/marine applications.Of course you can make a tiny AC unit like they did, but it really doesn't have a capacity of 5000 btu. This thing has about the size of a Vapochill unit that were all the rage a decade ago to massively overclock your computer. Fun in a computer, but you absolutely cannot cool a room with that (well, not significantly anyway). Afaik it had the performance of an average refrigerator.

author: edavid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2016, 04:03:36 pm
content: Quote from: MadModder on May 25, 2016, 02:09:48 pmIt's a 120V only product, and they are only shipping to the US and Canada, so that hardly matters.(Of course we do have some hinged windows in the US too.)

author: MadModder
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2016, 04:44:32 pm
content: Yes I know you do have some hinges.But the sliders are historically the far most common, as far as I 've seen on TV at least.

author: Red Squirrel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2016, 08:48:10 pm
content: Much lower profile than my setup.12,000 BTU though. Go big or go home.

author: edy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2016, 01:03:30 pm
content: My father is an HVAC engineer who designed numerous AC and heat exchangers of various sizes for decades. He is actually going to Philadelphia regularly and is still involved in working at plants making coils as he is now based in New Jersey. He is going to do some research and may even be able to talk to the Noria developers. I'll keep you posted.

author: ZeTeX
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 02, 2016, 06:13:30 pm
content: Quote from: Red Squirrel on May 25, 2016, 08:48:10 pmhttp://www.ecomfort.com/Goodman-GFC138033100U-3/p56796.htmlGo big or go home.(Don't mind the electricity bill)

author: edy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 02, 2016, 06:53:11 pm
content: Hi Folks,This is the response from my father in New Jersey who is an HVAC engineer and has designed small to multi-ton units for commercial to industrial applications for the last 5 decades. Excuse the spelling mistakes, English is not his first language:QuoteAs of this post, 32 hours to go.... Crunch time. 3,321 backers pledged $1,280,760 of $250,000 goal. It will almost definitely get funded.

author: Red Squirrel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2016, 12:00:47 am
content: Quote from: ZeTeX on June 02, 2016, 06:13:30 pmThat's actually not a bad price for a central unit.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 03, 2016, 01:57:50 am
content: $1.3M!

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 03, 2016, 01:59:29 am
content: Quote from: edy on June 02, 2016, 06:53:11 pmPlease do post his calculations!

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2016, 07:39:27 am
content: My guess is it will be underpowered, and maybe too noisy if used on full power.

author: ConKbot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2016, 08:20:38 pm
content: Tiny little AC unit, tiny evap and condenser both of which will be restrictive to make up for being small, tiny high static pressure fans to deal with the restrictive coils, for 1/2 the cost of my quality 6k btu/hr friedrich unit, and its going to be cheap, quiet, and efficient.Yeah.

author: Jeroen3
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2016, 08:42:09 pm
content: You must ask yourself. If they can do it for $300, why aren't they around already?

author: LabSpokane
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2016, 08:47:42 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on June 03, 2016, 01:57:50 amThis is another Batteroo. It's a chunk of money, but nowhere enough to actually execute a project of this magnitude.And it does seem that they are likely fudging the Btu capabilities of the unit. It's less than 1/3 the volume and half the weight of a competing compact air conditioner that is 6000 Btu instead of 5000 Btu. The laws of heat transfer govern the surface area of the coils necessary to dump the waste heat. Unless they have some new type of refrigeration mechanism that has a much higher delta T, it's unclear how the cut the size and weight so substantially.Noria size (5000 Btu): 5.8''H x 18.25''W x 15''D = 1588 cu inchFridgidaire size (6000 Btu): 18 x 23.6 x 12.2 inches = 5182 cu inchWorse yet, credible competitors already exist. This is the 6000 Btu unit for $280:http://www.amazon.com/Frigidaire-Window-Mounted-Profile-Conditioner-Full-Function/dp/B00IYQYN82/ref=sr_1_17?s=home-garden&ie=UTF8&qid=1464986556&sr=1-17&keywords=window+air+conditioner

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2016, 08:50:56 pm
content: They could be using deeper coils to get the same surface area, at the cost of higher restriction.Where I think they're really losing out on efficiency is the way they're bouncing the cold air off the ceiling. A design that would make more sense is to draw from the top/sides/bottom and blow out the front, with stepper motors controlling the vents. Add a PIR array (really low resolution thermal camera) to automatically detect where to direct the cooling to where it's needed. Drive the compressor off an inverter so it can be throttled back to match demand exactly. You'll basically end up with something that works like a fancy Gree mini split, just a lot easier to install.

author: rollatorwieltje
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 05, 2018, 02:30:57 am
content: https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/kapsul-cool-redefined-design#/updates/allChoo choo, the failtrain is nearing it's destination. Endless delays, renamed project, deleted social media...

author: Red Squirrel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 05, 2018, 05:25:44 am
content: They should have called it Kaput.

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 05, 2018, 07:53:27 pm
content: Quote from: rollatorwieltje on April 05, 2018, 02:30:57 amQuote

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 05, 2018, 08:51:44 pm
content: Quote from: MadModder on May 25, 2016, 04:44:32 pmI don't recall ever seeing a window that wasn't sliding, unless you count camper trailers or old mobile homes. I've been to a number of parts of the US, most of the populated areas in Western Canada and part of the UK and sliding windows seem to be pretty standard. I'm not sure how you'd make a window AC unit for a window that didn't slide.

author: Delta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 05, 2018, 09:10:20 pm
content: And just like Batterooiser, you cannae change the laws of physics!

author: edavid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2018, 03:50:55 am
content: Quote from: james_s on April 05, 2018, 08:51:44 pmYou've never seen casement windowshttps://www.andersenwindows.com/windows-and-doors/windows/casement-windows/Quotehttps://www.ajmadison.com/guides/air_conditioner/window/

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2018, 04:06:30 am
content: Oh I guess I have seen casement windows, now that I think about it there are a couple of them in my mom's house. They're certainly rare around here though, the vast majority are sliding.

author: edy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 12, 2018, 05:56:04 pm
content: I found this article but it is a bit old:https://www.phillymag.com/news/2017/04/18/noria-air-conditioner-kickstarter-kurt-swanson/It explains a lot about the concerns that it may be a scam, comments from backers due to the delays, reply by Swanson who is leading up the Noria venture. They raised $2.2 million and it seems they are disappearing quietly into the night with all that money.

author: Dave3
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2019, 01:38:06 am
content: As the summer heat ramps in once again in the northern hemisphere, yet another deadline has slipped by Noria (now Kapsul).In a 5 February 2019 update letter, the CEO claims to have raised another $3m of the $4m needed to get this to market. There were a few more recent updates but those are for "investors" only. A few of the commenters noted that updated shipping address and refund details are not so critical at this point lol.The Kapsul design is sleek and attractive. I like the lower profile but reduced air intake will hit efficiency, noise, and power. These guys deserve some recognition for trying to "revolutionize" commodity window air conditioners with a budget of just a few million dollars.https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/kurt/noria-cool-redefined/posts/2407626

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2019, 03:12:00 am
content: 5000 btu will take ages to cool a room like my lab here (very small about 10 x 15') guesstimation from my $250 9000 btu portable here that struggles to do the job, it only good for spot cooling, turn it off? its hot again. an excuse that need more fund for that small unit is simply bollock imho or they just got their workflow wrong. welcome to washington corporation, there goes 2M vanish into the thin air.

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2019, 10:44:18 am
content: I realized I'm replying to an old case, but as my points are completely valid regardless and may apply to any new such product, I leave this here:Quote from: rollatorwieltje on May 25, 2016, 02:52:55 pmThis reasoning is stupid beyond belief, as is this:Quote from: Jeroen3 on June 03, 2016, 08:42:09 pmAlmost all game changing innovation, ever, has been about an originally small player being able to pull of something the giants can't. Often, they become big themselves.Big players can put a lot of resources for certain optimizations if they want, but the issue typically is that they don't see the market.Someone's always the first. Always, with 100% certainty. Hence, the quoted claim is automatically proven wrong.Quote from: Delta on April 05, 2018, 09:10:20 pmExactly which law of physics their claims are contradicting?Give some real engineering arguments, or go home.I don't see anything fundamentally impossible here, I totally see the point of the product, and having looked at traditional window AC units, I'm 100% certain there is room for optimizing the size and noise level of the products. If they can deliver their specs, I would rather have one (well, without the stupid mobile UI thing.)For example, the compressor technology has changed significantly, but I'm not aware of many window AC units that take advantage of this. The big players are mostly concentrating on making the two-piece units better and better (and OTOH, improving refrigerators and freezers).Their power level choice makes perfect sense. Oftentimes, AC units are oversized thinking that bigger is better, but for AC, IMHO, it doesn't work that way. In humid climates especially, a smaller unit which runs less air through the evaporator, keeping it cooler, better removes moisture from the air, which makes it much more comfortable, even if a thermometer still reads fairly high. I have seen massively oversized systems that keep the evaporator near room temp by pushing massive amounts of air through it, cooling the room very well but increasing the RH to over 90%.In this time of excess energy consumption and overpopulation, we should indeed concentrate making our lives comfortableenough, not bruteforcing a +20 degC indoor temperature during the hottest season. From this viewpoint, I'd rather take a physically small, more quiet, easier to install device, even if it's underpowered, and even if it fails to provide a nice +21degC during the hottest times.The market (and Kickstarter) is literally saturated with fake cooling devices (which are either completely con devices, or "work" based on humidifying the air, which can reduce thetemperaturein extremely dry climates, but increase the dew point to make it more uncomfortable.) This is an actual compressor-based device that actually dehumidifies and cools; I welcome any innovation to make these real compressor units smaller, because they tend to be too big.Could they, or others succeed in doing a device with these specs robustly (or at all!), is another question completely. No one's saying it's an easy task. The odds of any new business failing are nearly 100%. And odds for any business on Kickstarter being or becoming a scam are high. But the arguments I see in this thread are very poor, except a few good points like the calculation of the outer measurements of similar competitors.

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2019, 10:48:28 am
content: Quote from: Mechatrommer on July 05, 2019, 03:12:00 amIt's because of the inherent flaw in the portable machines, you don't get the benefit of the full 9000 btu cooling power because it's sucking in more hot air. Worst case, the net effect is negative and you only get the benefit of localized cooling by sitting right in the breeze. Totally sucks. Literally.A proper 5000btu two-section unit is likely more powerful in cooling than the classical 9000 btu portable unit, with the advantage of saving energy.

author: donotdespisethesnake
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2019, 12:03:01 pm
content: Quote from: Siwastaja on July 05, 2019, 10:44:18 amI think you are just trolling, you seem to enjoy playing Devils advocate. You reasoning is non-sensical.Almost all failed business startups are about a small player thinking they can pull off something the giants can't, and failing...

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2019, 03:05:15 pm
content: Quote from: Siwastaja on July 05, 2019, 10:48:28 amAnd a window unit is a proper two section unit, only the refrigerant crosses from inside to out and vice versa.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2019, 04:20:27 pm
content: Quote from: Siwastaja on July 05, 2019, 10:48:28 ami believe a/c manufacturers know what they are doing, and yes there are compromise (not flaw) to get the "portability" feature, but with proper setup or modification, the compromise effect can be reduced, so is the portability unfortunately. the one i bought is single outlet i mean it only push hot air (after cooling the condenser) to outside, but has to suck room (already cooled) air to do so. so yeah, room air is circulating and has to suck normal/hotter air from outside to compensate negative room pressure created by the process. to reduce this effect, i'm thinking to mod the unit similar idea to Squirel posted 3 years ago.Quote from: Red Squirrel on May 25, 2016, 08:48:10 pmthis way, the inside air stay cool, the condenser is cooled using outside air, then dumped to another outside again. there are off the shelf double outlet unit like this but unfortunately its not available in my place when i was looking for it...Quote from: Siwastaja on July 05, 2019, 10:48:28 ami wont bet my money on device that small regardless. anyway, after 3 years of story, it seems its not coming anytime soon, the old man has to look for another solution or walk around costco if he cant stand years of waiting. and i think if this thing is practical, a/c manufacturers already do it.

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2019, 01:11:26 pm
content: There's mini splits for caravans which aren't that far off weight wise (27kg for 7000 btu) and 500 Watt compressors are pretty small ... it's more a question of marketing. No one has ever seen a market for a residential unit this low power.There probably isn't a market without the kickstarter marketing to idiots angle. Whether it's 20 kg or 40 kg I'd need a strong bracket regardless and how often will this fit when an existing small window unit won't?

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 19, 2019, 01:33:34 pm
content: SO... did they ever deliver?

author: edy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2019, 11:46:23 pm
content: Doesn't look like it. I'm reading the updates and they are still having trouble getting money. What are they working on? The key engineering? If they even built one functioning unit that is functioning and performing according to their claimed design specs, that would be enough to convince any investor or group to back them. I don't think they have a working unit, and the entire crowd-funding campaign (as we have seen with MANY OTHER failed projects) is used for R & D only to realize years later that it is not possible to technologically overcome these laws of physics limitations. We have seen this time and time again.Build just one working prototype (crude as it may look) that is performing and has the size you want, and the money will flow in to build the plastic molding, make the software app, reduce costs due to scale of production, etc. These people on Kickstarter and IndieGogo work BACKWARDS. First they get some artists and marketing wankers to make beautiful renders and come up with specs that don't look too far off existing expectations, and then they take everybody's money and screw around with it for several years to see if it is possible.Here is an interview with Kurt Swanson about rebranding Noria to Kapsul:https://artofthekickstart.com/rebranding-a-company-and-overcoming-challenges-with-kurt-swanson-aotk-244/Someone previously posted....QuoteWell I can tell you that anyone who does the math and has an HVAC engineering degree will agree with my father, who lives an hour out of Philadelphia and is an experienced HVAC designer (having developed numerous A/C units from small up to 20 TON units that go on buildings)... and he says that what they are claiming to do is beyond the laws of physics.And that is ultimately why after 3 years and millions and millions of dollars they haven't come up with anything. Their design is ultimately not capable of what they are trying to achieve, and that is due to a limitation in the physical requirements of the refrigerant circuit flow, amount of heat exchange that can occur during a given amount of time, the air flow and surface area of the coils, etc... these are fundamental HVAC principles and laws of thermodynamics that experienced HVAC engineers for decades have been unable to overcome.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2019, 12:57:29 pm
content: Sad story.Looks like it will end up in the same cemetery as solar roads...

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2019, 02:27:56 pm
content: Quote from: donotdespisethesnake on July 05, 2019, 12:03:01 pmNo, my comment was not a trolling, nor non-sensical, because it was a simple fact based on physical reality, not opinion.The classical argument that something cannot happen because it hasn't already happened is totally nonsensical and objectively untrue. Someone is always first, by definition. (Another logical possibility is that nothing is ever happening at all. Would you sign that?)I have hard time understanding how otherwise sensible people fall into this line of thinking again and again. It's probably an emotional phenomenon called "cynicism" taking over the brain and shutting down basic logical fact-checking. I know, I love to be cynical as well, which is exactly why I force myself out of that comfort zone, and force myself to think rationally instead. And people won't like it. They want circlejerk friends, not to be questioned.QuoteOf course, and almost all fail, because the number of those who try is orders of magnitude more of those who succeed. It's called competition. And competition is harsh, and developing new things is really difficult where all the details matter. (BTW, it's not about giants that "can't", it's more often about giants that "won't". A big difference. And guess what? Inside the giants, alotof internal development fails. It's just hidden.)Yetsometimesbreakthroughs happen. Maybe 0.01% of the time. Blue LEDs, for example, that enabled modern low-energy lighting, is an interesting story about a fairly small company playing on averylimited R&D budget, basically very enterpreneur-like one man show within a small company, trying out things, hitting a gold mine and growing as a result.Nowthey are a large company.Henry Ford also built his first car at his home. He even failed once with his startup, got more backers and retried. If he had completely failed, we just wouldn't remember him. They are big now. Confirmation bias.It's easy to shout from the bushes that "this is going to fail", because your odds of being right are so good, almost 100%. It's like placing bets that Usain Bolt's going to run a faster time than me. No shit Sherlock. You were right, congratulations. Then in the next thread, you are again right, congratulations. There are words to describe the process: circle jerk, or echo chamber.But this is meaningless discussion only for your own ego, nothing else.Actuallydebunkingthings, OTOH, is highly respectable, because of so many con devices, often claiming to break laws of physics. In the process, you teach about physics and engineering, and learn yourself. Actual debunking is always based on technical arguments and physical facts. Otherwise, you lose your credibility (outside your small echo chamber) quickly.Pointing out that startups almost always fail is a meaningless, trivial fact which proves absolutely nothing.Look, every time someone claims miraculous new battery technology and it's in the media, I'm called and asked have I heard about this amazing new technology. And I reply: "Yes [regardless of whether I actually have heard about it], it's bullshit, not going to actually happen". I base my bets on the 99.99% of the cases not being quick breakthroughs, or usually being outright scams, and of course I have a 100% success rate here, it's easy, just say "no" to everything. But one day it will happen that I'm wrong for once, and I'm eagerly looking for that day.But circlejerk is only fun for about 5 minutes without actual solid technical arguments. Then it gets boring, nasty, and smelly.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2019, 05:51:03 pm
content: i dont mind startup that fails, i do mind startup that lies, i dont think Mr Ford lied to his backers back then, "investors"? investors get paid each time products sold, crowdfund backers get what?. they promised or give hope that they will deliver. they showed a prototype picture that looked like to be working in the first place, and then ask people's money and say you will get a working unit on this or that date. after years of waiting they came out with a video showing people cadding on a comfy table and PC, on another scene people discussing about the effectiveness of a fan design they just have invented. so where is the working prototype they were showing? right, the money is for feeding them in few years working in R&D for a prototype that never took place. but then when they are very close, they want to rebrand it to some name to fill pile of shit in, and probably sell it to another market region, so whats with backers left with hope? right, they helped the startup to build their business on from ground up, that was the intention wasnt it? objective achieved. with the advent of crowd funding we'll see more and more of this scams on engineering wannabe level with some lame excuses. reminds me of that water from nothing generator and solus 200% efficient heater brought up earlier.

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2019, 06:02:20 pm
content: It's not a break through, it's just marketing.It promises around 3000 cubic inches at 40 pounds for 5000 BTU nominal cooling.A Frigidaire FFRE063ZA1is around 3750 cubic inches at 45.9 pounds for 6000 BTU nominal cooling. Playing around a bit with airflow and efficiency the remaining distance between those numbers isn't going to be hard to cross.If they fail to produce it it's because of business reasons, not physics.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2019, 06:07:20 pm
content: thats not look like something that a lady can grab and hide under the bed... and 40 pounds is heavier than some boat anchor..

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2019, 06:15:08 pm
content: If you have the strength and reach to relatively safely a wrangle Noria into a window you can probably do it with the Frigidaire, either way you're moving 20+ kg into what is likely to be a multi-story window ... you should probably do it with 2 people just to be safe. You'll need to store it in a closet instead of under a bed/couch, big woop.

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2019, 07:40:38 pm
content: Quote from: Marco on July 24, 2019, 06:02:20 pmOh, but someone's dad knows better, so Frigidaire is completely lying and scamming us because dad laws of physics say so!Thank you for an actual contribution, and completely debunking the "laws of physics" cargo cult circlejerk club in one go.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2019, 11:46:16 pm
content: if you have nothing to do other than spewing bullshit you better just enjoy and watch. the original spec of Noria was...Size: 5.8''H x 18.25''W x 15''DWeight: Approximately 30 pounds.Cooling Capacity: 5,000 BTU/hour.FrigidaireSize: 15.8 x 18.6 x 12.8 inchesWeight: 45.9 poundsCooling Capacity: 6000 BTUthats only 1500 cubic inches for Noria, half of Frigidaire... so if you cant realize this elementary facts and not having the slightest idea, you should stop spewing bullshit in an attempt to back a failed enthusiast, and congratulation to Marco for making that like apple to apple comparison. if Mr Kurt thinks that reducing volume by half and yet still try to press as much refrigerant into the system as twice the volume unit and expect it to work optimally in Carnot cycle, then i think he is delusional.the average market price for such a window unit or (10kbtu or 1HP AC unit) is around $250. Noria asked $600, $350 more because it has bluetooth and wifi IC in it and some colorful leds. $350 x 3715 = $1.3M solely can be used for R&D (which they should already done before the campaign) and one-time tooling cost, the $250/unit cost from the $600 asking price is still untouched, thats is another $1M money. and yet they still short of fund. i think they want to make Agilent factory.

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2019, 02:15:45 pm
content: Quote from: Mechatrommer on July 24, 2019, 11:46:16 pmThank you for pointing out the change-of-specs. A real technical contribution, wow!So the Original Noria for reference:1588 cubic inches (not 1500; 1600 would be correctly rounded. Yes, a 7% rounding error is significant when we are talking about numbers of 36% to 50%)0.318 in^3 per BTUQuote0.627 in^3 per BTUNoria's claimed improvement compared to this Frigidaire: 49%But wait, there are others:Frigidaire FFRE0833S1(18.5*17.5*13.4)/8000 = 0.542 in^3 per BTUNoria's claimed improvement compared to this: 41%Danby DAC080B5WDB(16.8*18.5*13.4)/8000 = 0.521 in^3 per BTUNoria's claimed improvement compared to this: 39%Frigidaire FFRE1233S1(19*21.5*14.5)/12000 = .494 in^3 per BTUNoria's claimed improvement compared to this: 36%(This is the best volumetric power density cheap window AC number I found in a 10-minute search.)Now I have a few rhetorical questions and comments for you. No need to reply, I'm not following the thread after this:Do you have an understanding about the third exponent in volumetric measurements, and its implications?Where is the source for the implied claim that existing machines are totally size-optimized for every millimeter, and, not for - OMG - price? (A personal experience: I'm running my AC unitwithout the cover, because it has a stupid form and the casing mostly holds dead space inside. Its volume down by at least 30-40% just by removing the stupidly designed cover.)Do you realize that the measurements listed are inaccurate, tend to be rounded, sometimes to half an inch? A 36% volumetric difference might easily be 45%, or 25%.Have you seen a size difference of a 50/60Hz AC compressor, and a new-generation inverter-driven BLDC compressor of same size, in a modern AC unit?How do you base the idea that the existing window machines represent the highest evolution of compressor technology, such as BLDC compressors with inverter drive? I'm not saying Noria implements these, but it's a possible implementation.You can quickly show, to high certainty, that something likely is going to be physically impossible if they claim an improvement of 1000%.But how do you instantly know,without doing the actual full design math, that a claimed 36% increase in volumetric power density (11% linear increase in each dimension satisfies this condition, for example) is completely impossible,by laws of physics? Of course you don't. You are just full of bullshit.I can instantly seemanyof technical details I could do to increase the power density, if I wanted to, like:* Use an inverter drive, drive the compressor motor at higher frequency; optimize the motor lamination thickness and core material to decrease core losses again. This easily reduces the motor size to 1/3, BTDT.* Optimize the inverter size using modern semiconductor technology. I can fit a 1kW inverter drive in 0.5x1x3 inch area.* Change the evaporator and condenser coil spreader leafs from aluminum to copper; make them couple better to the copper pipes, using thermal interface materials, or even welding or soldering the leafs. The typical way of coupling kinda sucks. It's cheap to manufacture; they just use bigger coils to compensate.* Use modern fan design. Classical implementations require a lot of dead space to direct the airflow to the full condenser/evaporator coil, from one centrifugal or radial fan. Centrifugal fan itself has a good airflow-to-volume ratio, but when equipped with the required air channels, it isn't so good anymore. Besides, they tend to again use 50/60Hz induction motors for these fans. For a point of comparison, look for modern laptop cooling (airflow to volume ratio).* Use modern electronics to create the front panels. These are classically HUGE, including mechanical knobs, or deep components like DIP 7-segment LED displays. Not uncommon at all that the front panel unit is 10x4x1 inches alone.QuoteIt didn't occur to you that maybe, just maybe, the higher pricecouldbe because of, you know, optimization work went into power density, instead of price. Just sayin'. It would be a logical conclusion.(In reality, I agree with you that it's likely a con, and the price went into the colorful leds. I don't like them either. But this is besides the point.)The fact they had to change the specs means they clearly didn't make it. But, the circle jerk club is still wrong, as clearly shown. After this analysis I can say with full confidence that the answer to the question in the title, is it too good to be true, is no; the specifications are completely feasible and achievable by good engineering and optimization.Make your own conclusions.

author: edy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2019, 05:11:44 pm
content: Quote from: Siwastaja on July 24, 2019, 07:40:38 pmYes, dad laws of physics always win in my book! And it's not Frigidaire that is scamming/lying... last I checked they actually delivered working products to the market.Anyways, assuming it is possible to achieve what Noria set out to do... laws of physics aside, where's the result? It only makes the argument for them worse... That is, they are now without any result for something that is physically possible! Which is worse? To try to do something physically impossible and fail, or to just take money when you could have accomplished something possible within laws of physics and current tech?I'm all for Noria succeeding... this will be good for everyone. I sincerely hope it comes to fruition. But each day that passes, my confidence that we will get something anywhere close to the original specs and size and cooling capacity that Noria originally promised diminishes.And by the way, if it was just a matter of taking out the "dead space" in between the components in the air-conditioner and using a few smaller more efficient newly available components to shrink it down 30-40%, don't you think it would have been possible already after all this money and time? Minus all the Wifi/Bluetooth electronic circuit, how hard do you think it is to create the RAW air-conditioner and prove it works? Then add all the other stuff (app, Wifi, fancy enclosure) later.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2019, 05:55:54 pm
content: Quote from: edy on July 25, 2019, 05:11:44 pmditto!

author: edy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2019, 06:30:21 pm
content: Look what I found at Walmart Canada for $139 CA (like less than $100 US) (Midea 5000 BTU A/C):https://www.walmart.ca/en/ip/midea-5000-btu-window-air-conditioner/6000199090296?cmpid=sem_google_en_pla_none_1075009830_54173645458_None&gclsrc=aw.ds&&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI8q2V4NfQ4wIVwxx9Ch0snQrREAQYASABEgJ8UfD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.dsMidea 5000 BTU A/C as per Wal-Mart website Dimensions and weight:Assembled Height 12.05 inAssembled Length 13.19 inAssembled Width 15.98 inAssembled Weight 35.27 lbNow the Kapsul W5 info found on the site:https://www.kapsulair.com/faqThis has been revised since the original campaign to be more within realistic (not breaking the law of physics) specifications. Remember still on their Noria page (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/kurt/noria-cool-redefined/description) it still says 5.8''H x 18.25''W x 15''D and weight approx. 30 lb, which itself may have changed since the original campaign started (I'm sure someone can confirm if this size/weight has crept up during the last few years without anyone noticing website modifications).Anyways, their Kapsul W5 specs are as follows:Height: Face: 7.28" Adapter band: 7.68"Width: 19.69"Depth: Body of unit is 22" (8" of that comes into the room, the rest extends through the wall and outside.) 23.87" includes the faceplate and temperature knob.Weight: 40 lbs (even weight distribution and handles at each end make it easy to carry and even possible to hold with one hand.)Ok now let's compare dimensions:Midea KapsulHeight 12.05 in 7.28 inLength 13.19 in 19.69 inWidth 15.98 in 22.00 inWeight 35.27 lb 40.00 lbWHHAAAATTTTT!!!!!!!!!!!!How is this freakingly possible??? Somebody quick go to Walmart and buy a Midea and re-arrange the insides to the shape of a Kapsul and send it to them... you have solved the problem and saved their Kickstarter/IndieGogo campaign!Noria volume: 1587.75 cu in @ ~30 lb (5.8 x 18.25 x 15)Midea volume: 2540 cu in @ ~35 lb (12.05 x 13.19 x 15.98)Kapsul W5 volume: 3153 cu in @ ~ 40 lb (7.28 x 19.69 x 22)WOW!Their original "Noria" size was HALF the size of what they are now pushing as the Kapsul W5, and you can pick up a Midea from Wal-Mart today for about $100 US which is SMALLER than a Kapsul W5 and LIGHTER.It's too bad they weren't honest with their specs at the time they launched their campaign. Maybe they wouldn't have had as many backers. But since when is honesty a requirement of Kickstarter/IndieGogo campaigns?So I guess it is not the laws of physics limiting them... it's the laws of morality!Dad-Cad says a Midea and Kapsul W5 is physically possible, but a 40% reduction in size compared to the Midea (which is what Noria wanted us to believe) is not. This all boils back to Noria's original claims of size and weight. I'm pretty confident Kapsul W5 can be delivered... at this point you would have to be completely incompetent or crooks or both not to be able to release an A/C that is larger and weighs more than what is already available. Let's hope the Kickstarter and IndieGoGo backers at least receive a Kapsul W5 for their troubles, or send them a Midea in the meantime.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2019, 04:41:13 am
content: if they go thewaterseer way type of R&D... by taking parts apart and put into their capsule sheet hole... they should already deliver long time ago with somewhat crippled btu, but who cares? as long as they put 5000 btu sticker on top of it and backers are happy with the placebo effect... here the closest thing so far to 1500 cu.inch...3072BTU Window Air Conditionerwith excess $200-300 of the crowd fund cost, they can enjoy the retirement happy life with the $1M+ china Jho Low easy come easy go everybody happy way...

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2019, 06:25:40 pm
content: i just found a smaller version of this. much smaller but much cooler. who will have the bragging right?

author: Red Squirrel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2019, 08:27:29 pm
content: Something like this could have had potential if it was marketed and designed right. There is not much as far as battery operated A/C units, ex: for small off grid setups. A ~500BTU unit that runs on a 12v BLDC (to vary cooling capacity) could be very useful for say, tent camping. could run off a small solar setup and you could adjust the power usage by slowing down the compressor. Don't try to be fancy and use "revolutionary" tech, make it use a standard refrigeration cycle, just make it lower capacity/power usage and make it run on DC.Essentially make it like a portable with two 1" air hoses (air inlet/outlet). Essentially it would be a mini high velocity system.

author: Dave3
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 01, 2020, 08:45:06 pm
content: No one is left out in the coldInSeptember 2019, Noria raised over $3 million equityas noted in the SEC filings.In April 2020, Noria responded to a Kickstarter backer, "No one is out in the cold. We are doing our best despite the circumstances we've faced and are currently facing. We all feel and understand everyone's frustration and disappointment. More updates will be provided as they come along. - JB"We didn't find any customers who have received units yet. But on 29 April 2020 Kapsul posted"The first backers received their units last week, and we will be shipping more units out each week from now until the end of our production run later this summer.""When you made your pledge there was not a 25% tariff in place on goods from China. ""Toolingwound up being $1,500,000, which is — you already did the math —$1,000,000 more than we budgeted.""Our first container (420 units) is scheduled to ship by or before May 15...Our next three containers are shipping by the end of May.Two more are shipping in the beginning of June.After that we are not entirely sure…Our plan for the summer is twenty containers. This quantity allows us to fulfill every backer order and we are working to get as many containers made and shipped as possible."https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1789212/000178921219000001/xslFormDX01/primary_doc.xmlhttps://www.kickstarter.com/projects/kurt/noria-cool-redefined/posts/2823616

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 02, 2020, 04:10:23 am
content: Quote from: Dave3 on May 01, 2020, 08:45:06 pmso noria is a good heater?

author: Cyberdragon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 02, 2020, 07:40:47 am
content: Quote from: Mechatrommer on May 02, 2020, 04:10:23 amAny AC unit is a heater if you reverse the placement of the exchanger sides.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 02, 2020, 10:11:46 am
content: Quote from: Cyberdragon on May 02, 2020, 07:40:47 ama good heater is a good heater in both direction... so no one left in the cold inside and outside.. yes? btw i've purchased a floor standing AC unit a while ago, i concluded it as inefficient in both term electricity usage and cooling power per volume of room space. its a good spot cooler though but once its off, the room is hot again. and to compensate for its small size but yet want to provide high CFM air, so the blower sounds like a full powered vaccum cleaner. going more smaller like a noria, i can now make some projection, from full wall mounted split unit, down to the floor standing unit, down to a noria.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 02, 2020, 03:49:01 pm
content: watched that. you have any idea how much work i put on it in the last (year end) holiday? see attached i've done more (dust filtering everywhere and elevated evaporator intake) now it looks a bit funny and less portable, but i tried to make them easily dismantled in case in occasions that its needed in another room. its now in another room much smaller after about a year screaming and blowing to my nose in the lab. when i first installed it, the SWMBO is likewhat the heck are you doing with it? but now she is happier since that is the room where she always in, even though she still has no clue what is going on and what principles with those add-ons. the lab now got the "properly made" wall split unit. i have and felt both of them still in operation today so i think you better trust me when i say its inefficienti even charted both power consumption using current clamp, the smaller floor standing is as much power to the split unit when the compressor is activated, 10-25% work operation on wall split unit can provide much much more cooled space compared to 100% working floor standing at a given time. ymmv.

author: Dave3
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 02, 2020, 07:42:59 pm
content: @Mechatrommer - Would you get a bit better performance by1. Swapping outside hoses for intake and exhaust? Current intake will suck in some hot rising exhaust.2. Insulating the outside hoses, particularly the hot exhaust hose (that is a lot of heating surface area!)3. Increasing the size of the inside cardboard intake?4. If you are filtering the air, I use a few tricks to get long life of filters. I use a cheap washable foam prefilter. Over that I use some lycra cloth. They get dirty quickly so need to be quickly vacuumed frequently else airflow drops to nothing. This guy has a ton of air filter hackshttp://www.air-purifier-power.com/

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 02, 2020, 09:27:24 pm
content: Quote from: Dave3 on May 02, 2020, 07:42:59 pmthanks for your suggestion. but i think i've thought about it. i know ideally hot air should be on top. but i have kids in the house, there is a risk they will poke something in if i put the intake hose at below since the height is within their reach, i spent many hours just to fix things in the house damaged by them, maybe this is whats called like father like sons. further the hot exhaust is so fast blowing, that the hot air will blend with outside air in no time and becomes cooler before they will have a chance to get in back through intake port (if they can). and further, the outside directly where the exhaust blows is where we hang our washed clothes so i think its better for it to be there blowing wet clothes to dry fast.Quote from: Dave3 on May 02, 2020, 07:42:59 pmthere is no outside hoses. the inside hoses just fitted directly on the window cover. it has fitting there for the hoses they came together when i bought them. and the hot exhaust hose is not that hot so i dont think to fully cover it. it will be harder to move it around just for maybe less than 1% of efficiency improvement. i have an earlier post in this thread linking a setup made by another member in this forum where he fully covered his hoses with some thick insulation, but i dont think i want that kind of bulkness.Quote from: Dave3 on May 02, 2020, 07:42:59 pmits possible by cutting out the cardboard but i guess its already big enough i dont see much resistance by the filter. when i think its needed, then its an easy job to dismantle and cut. the filter is just some sort of soft paper used/sold in flower shop to make flowers bag or something. for about 6'x4' its only about 50 cents enough to make filter for both the floor standing and my wall mount split unit, i still got some leftover. i can see the filter used by the split unit in the lab is now brownish quick covered with dust it will soon need replacement. the other room is very clean the filter is still white. the filter for condenser intake is some brand car's AC air filter glued together to fit the internal fitting in the diy cardboard box behind the AC unit just before reaching the condenser, it should be washable with air blow or water i havent check it visually, the sign is only how strong the exhaust air is, if i feel some blockage (less airflow on exhaust) that should be a sign for cleaning.Quote from: Dave3 on May 02, 2020, 07:42:59 pmyup. my cheap filter has very little resistance we can see through it, but it should be much better than nothing at all. i dont want to put much resistance to the airflow, there will be slight smaller dust passing through but that is i'm willing to take. if cleaner air is needed, more robust filter structure will be needed but the drawback is airflow resistance i'll need to increase opening area as you suggested, but this is a compromise for me. best regards.btw, i also bought a cheap china air purifier for my lab, its a bit noisy when working with its underpowered fan, 3 layers filter with activated charcoal and another greenish layer similar to the on face mask, i dont know, disinfectant maybe or what i dont really care i only need cleaner air since my lab is so stubborn after what i've done to combat dust, they are still coming in fast.

author: Dave3
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 02, 2020, 11:20:45 pm
content: Thanks for taking me through your thought process! I do some thermal work on laptops and home air purifiers for a hobby so this is a good bundling of similar challenges.As you note, those portable AC units are suboptimal but sometimes the best option.They use "window rattlers" all over NYC. They are terribly noisy but cheap and somewhat more efficient and powerful.In Japan and Europe I only see split systems. Some of the newer models are superb.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 03, 2020, 02:03:59 pm
content: Quote from: Cyberdragon on May 02, 2020, 03:05:51 pmWhy the hell can't thunderfoot make videos like that? I'd watch 'em all instead of just running away at the mere mention of his name.

author: julcas815
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: December 26, 2020, 10:00:00 pm
content: Thank you for the detailed descriptions. It was quite helpful. The fact is that I myself wanted to install pipes for ventilation in my house. Unfortunately I couldn't handle it alone and I had to call the guys fromsocool.sgto which I explained my plan and showed some pictures from this topic. We did it together in a couple of hours. As soon as I clean up after work, I will definitely send a photo of the result, which I am very happy with!