Risc-V + USB 3.0 + gigabit - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: dmendesf
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2020, 11:11:43 pm
content: Seems like a good interface chip:http://www.wch.cn/products/CH569.htmlAnybody got their hands on it?

author: EverydayMuffin
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2020, 11:17:29 pm
content: Saw this chip during the week here:https://www.cnx-software.com/2020/07/21/wch-ch569-risc-v-soc-offers-usb-3-0-gigabit-ethernet-high-speed-serdes-hspi-interfaces/I'm definitely more excited about the PolarFire SoC though.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2020, 11:47:17 pm
content: This is a very interesting part. This may be a replacement for Cypress USB-FIFO chips with actually decent core performance.Hopefully devices and documentation would be actually available sooner rather than later.

author: brucehoult
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2020, 12:10:50 am
content: Quote from: EverydayMuffin on July 23, 2020, 11:17:29 pmI don't think I've seen a price for the actual chips.The Icicle dev board at $499 is interesting. It seems it comes with Linux preloaded as a demo -- though I guess some people might never change that! You can log in via USB serial. It's a pity it's only 667 (cariously 600) MHz and 2 GB RAM vs the 1.5 GHz and 8 GB RAM on the HiFive Unleashed, but it's also a lot cheaper and has a lot more onboard compared to the bare Unleashed.If it had HDMI and ethernet then it could be used as an actual desktop somewhere near to a Raspberry Pi 2 level. I guess those could be implemented (at a logical level) in the FPGA (with just a simple frame buffer for the HDMI). Can the chip also act as the PHY? Then you'd just need a hopefully very cheap daughterboard with the connectors.

author: dmendesf
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2020, 12:27:38 am
content: Quote from: EverydayMuffin on July 23, 2020, 11:17:29 pmThanks for your link. About the PolarFire, I don't know if I'm reading correctly the datasheet but seems the RISC-V is just a softcore (and for fun there's a hard Cortex-M3 for configuration and power management) so... Can you explain the general excitation with this part?

author: dmendesf
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2020, 12:31:37 am
content: Quote from: ataradov on July 23, 2020, 11:47:17 pmExactly my thoughts.

author: dmendesf
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2020, 01:14:15 am
content: Quote from: dmendesf on July 24, 2020, 12:27:38 amReplying to myself... PolarFire and PolarFire SoC are two different things... Just noticed that.

author: EverydayMuffin
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2020, 12:58:44 pm
content: Quote from: brucehoult on July 24, 2020, 12:10:50 amI think the pricing will be very competitive against Xilinx Zynq-7000 devices. I know the PolarFire FPGA (without RISC-V) Transceivers can act as a PHY for USB 3.2 Gen2 (10Gbps) without external components and PolarFire has IP for a 10G Ethernet MAC and USXGMII but requires an external PHY for that (See:https://www.microsemi.com/existing-parts/parts/150889).PolarFire SoC has the same FPGA Fabric so will be able to do the above too I guess.

author: asmi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2020, 09:50:13 pm
content: Quote from: EverydayMuffin on July 24, 2020, 12:58:44 pmThe question for me is are they going to provide a free IDE to take advantage of all of that, that will be at least as feature-rich as Vivado Webpack is? If not, they won't be competitive vis-a-vis Zynq even if they are better on paper.

author: dmendesf
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2020, 10:50:41 pm
content: What about the price? The MPF300T-FCG484I is $380 at Digikey... Don't know if this is ES price but it needs to go down at least 10x, maybe 20x to be reasonable...

author: brucehoult
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2020, 10:59:29 pm
content: Quote from: asmi on July 24, 2020, 09:50:13 pmIt seems a Silver license for Libero is free. You have to generate a new key every year. I don't know how the features compare to Vivado.

author: Bassman59
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2020, 02:06:48 am
content: Quote from: brucehoult on July 24, 2020, 10:59:29 pmThe IDE is a lot simpler than Vivado. They provide a Microsemi-only version of Synplify Pro, which includes the Identify debugger (their ChipScope). ModelSim is provided for HDL simulation. Eclipse is used for ARM code development.

author: asmi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2020, 03:55:59 am
content: Quote from: dmendesf on July 24, 2020, 10:50:41 pmNo, that's not the case. If you want to get to 10+ Gpbs MGT on Zynq platform, you will need to jump at least to z030, which is also not exactly cheap.

author: EverydayMuffin
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2020, 11:28:41 am
content: Quote from: dmendesf on July 24, 2020, 10:50:41 pmXilinx "equivalent" to the MPF300T is the XC7K325T. Both have the same amount of Logic and 12G SERDES. You'll find the XC7K325T is a lot more expensive.XC7K325T-1FBG676C is $967.20MPF300T-FCG484E is $338.32.

author: ali_asadzadeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2020, 12:07:36 pm
content: Interesting partany price and Datasheet info?It can be used for many things including new Debug adapters for FPGA and Embedded

author: dmendesf
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2020, 01:41:54 pm
content: Quote from: EverydayMuffin on July 25, 2020, 11:28:41 amSo it will not be equivalent to ZYNQ at all . You can buy 7010 in China for peanuts, like $10. Even at 1/3 of MPF300 price the smallest PolarFire SoC Will be too expensive.

author: EverydayMuffin
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2020, 02:04:17 pm
content: Quote from: dmendesf on July 25, 2020, 01:41:54 pmPolarFire SoC != PolarFire FPGAPolarFire SoC has much smaller devices than PolarFire FPGA, for example PolarFire SoC will have a 25K Logic Element device (MPFS025T), smallest PolarFire FPGA is 100K LEs.MPFS025T would be the alternative to Z-7010, but it would be adding a high-speed 12.7Gbps SerDes and offering additional memory support DDR3, LPDDR3/4.Edit: If you are trying to compare like with like, compare Z-7015 or Z-7030 with MPFS095T. I think MPFS095T will be significantly cheaper.

author: dmendesf
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2020, 04:23:36 pm
content: Damn I keep looking at the wrong device family. Now it makes sense.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2020, 04:27:33 pm
content: Quote from: ataradov on July 23, 2020, 11:47:17 pmReally? I'm not sure what you are referring to. The Cypress FX2 has a relatively lousy 8051 core @48MHz max, but it's an old device with USB 2.0 HS, so if you had this in mind, there is no comparison here.But the Cypress FX3, which supports USB 3.0 SS, is ARM9-based @200MHz max, with 512KB RAM, whereas this chip is a RISC-V @120MHz max with 96KB RAM max. It's not even a tie.Of course it has other interfaces such has Gigabit ethernet, but if you only care about USB, as you were talking about a replacement, they really don't look too appealing. As to price, I don't know how it will compare. The Cypress FX3 is about $20 in relatively low quantities.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2020, 06:30:15 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on July 25, 2020, 04:27:33 pmCypress FX2. I'm aware of FX3, but they are only available in huge BGA packages. And they are not cheap. I personally don't need USB SS pretty much ever.FX2 is perfect for many applications, but it is very limited on the core side. This device could easily replace that, and given the typical pricing probably at half the cost.

author: ebclr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2020, 08:24:24 pm
content: CH552/ ch559 a can be a option, when price and simplicity are a key point, not the fastest one USB 2 only , but very flexible

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2020, 08:29:57 pm
content: Option for what? For small USB FS devices I'm pretty set on SAM D11. I'm done programming 8051 core or any other weird proprietary stuff. Screw that.But USB FS is far too slow for a lot of things. USB HS is the key here.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2020, 10:26:42 pm
content: Quote from: ataradov on July 25, 2020, 06:30:15 pmSo FX2 it was. But these days, quite a few MCUs embed USB HS interfaces, so you have ample choice there outside of the FX2. So I personally don't bother: if I need to design something based on an MCU, I'll look at MCUs with USB HS (STM32 for instance); if I need something around an FPGA, I'll usually use an FT232H instead (single channel), which is cheaper than an FX2 anyway.As to whether this one would be a good deal for USB HS only, we'll see when we know the pricing, but given the specs (USB SS, Gigabit ethernet, Serdes...), I would expect something significantly more expensive than the usual WCH stuff, and would certainly not assume it will be anywhere as cheap as a ch559 for instance.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2020, 10:50:17 pm
content: Quote from: ataradov on July 25, 2020, 08:29:57 pmHaving had to edit some FX2 8051 firmware very recently, I can tell you that it pretty much just works with SDCC. Also, the slow CPU doesn't matter much for the FX2's intended purpose since it's the DMA engine that does the real work.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2020, 10:57:18 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on July 25, 2020, 10:26:42 pmNone of them have hardware FIFO that goes directly to the USB. So the core or DMA end up on a critical path.And even then it is hard to configure GPIO controller to sample on the specific external clock.The only acceptable solution that I found for reading things is SAM E70. It has parallel capture mode on the GPIO, which takes external clock and capture 8 bytes at a time. DMA still is involved, but at least it is possible.I could not find anything like that for the output.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2020, 10:59:00 pm
content: Quote from: NiHaoMike on July 25, 2020, 10:50:17 pmYes, that is if you only want a dumb FIFO. I also need some additional logic. And that 8051 is SLOW.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2020, 11:20:50 pm
content: Quote from: ataradov on July 25, 2020, 10:59:00 pmHave you considered a low cost FPGA like ICE40 for that logic?

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2020, 11:24:41 pm
content: Quote from: NiHaoMike on July 25, 2020, 11:20:50 pmYes, that's what I settled on. But that adds costs and complexity. So having an integrated chip that is accessible and easy to use would be nice. I see that thing being popular if they decide to release it widely.

author: EverydayMuffin
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2020, 11:26:48 pm
content: Quote from: NiHaoMike on July 25, 2020, 11:20:50 pmDoes ICE40 have a high-speed SERDES capable of USB 3.1 Gen 1 or Gen 2?

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2020, 11:29:19 pm
content: Quote from: EverydayMuffin on July 25, 2020, 11:26:48 pmNot even close. But you would use any MCU for USB and FPGA for the capture logic. It is workable, but not ideal, since there is still a question of streaming the data into the MCU.

author: EverydayMuffin
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2020, 11:55:21 pm
content: Quote from: ataradov on July 25, 2020, 11:29:19 pmSo if you want to do USB 3.1 Gen1 (5Gbps) your options are:• MCU/FPGA (no SERDES) + Cypress FX3Or• FPGA (with 5G SERDES) + USB 3.1 Gen1 IPAnd if you want to do USB 3.1 Gen2 (10Gbps) your only option is:• FPGA (with 10G SERDES) + USB 3.1 Gen2 IPPlease correct me if I'm wrong on this.

author: Bassman59
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2020, 11:57:07 pm
content: Quote from: ataradov on July 25, 2020, 08:29:57 pmYou would think that more devices supported USB HS, but ... no. SAM3U, SAME70, LPC55S28/69, TM4C1294 (with external PHY), I think that's about it. The FTDI parts glued to a micro or FPGA could be interesting, but you can't set your own descriptors (you can't use it as a specific device class, you have to use the FTDI custom vendor class).

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2020, 12:15:49 am
content: Quote from: Bassman59 on July 25, 2020, 11:57:07 pmThere's also PIC32 but I don't have experience with ones that have USB 2.0 yet.

author: Bassman59
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2020, 12:27:31 am
content: Quote from: NiHaoMike on July 26, 2020, 12:15:49 amThat's another bone I have to pick with vendors. They have all of these selection matrices you can sort through to pick the processor that you want. And when they say USB, they rarely indicate HS vs FS. So unless they call out HS specifically, I assume it's FS only.

author: chickenHeadKnob
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2020, 04:57:19 am
content: Quote from: Bassman59 on July 25, 2020, 11:57:07 pmStm32h7xx with external phy if we are talking about USB 2.0 480 Mbit, otherwise I've lost the trail in this conversation.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2020, 05:07:44 am
content: External PHYs are not ideal. They take up minimum 12 pins. And just general board space and having to source and populate one more component.

author: dmendesf
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2020, 12:03:38 pm
content: There's also FT601 / FT602Quote from: EverydayMuffin on July 25, 2020, 11:55:21 pm

author: asmi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2020, 02:44:57 pm
content: Quote from: ataradov on July 26, 2020, 05:07:44 amSTM32F733 series has on-chip OTG HS phy.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2020, 03:24:58 pm
content: Quote from: Bassman59 on July 25, 2020, 11:57:07 pmYou have a range of them in the STM32 line too. Most will require an external PHY though, very few integrate one in the F7 line (see post above.)As to FTDI parts, indeed you can't provide your own descriptors (just configure a few elements such as VID/PID, max current, etc.) They are fine if what you need is just stream data in bulk mode, and that still covers a lot of needs. They also have an HID device, but I've never used it. Speaking of FTDI, they also have MCUs with embedded USB HS controllers (FT9xx line).

author: ali_asadzadeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 16, 2021, 11:02:18 am
content: It seems the chips can be found on Taobao, @ around 25RMB, also they have released the chip datasheet, has anybody has done anything with this puppy?

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 16, 2021, 07:38:45 pm
content: By "datasheet" you mean that 120 page document in Chinese? That is not nearly enough to make a good use of the device. Also, Taobao is not the best place place.I'll wait until there is better documentation, or at least a better place to buy them.

author: ali_asadzadeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 17, 2021, 07:29:08 am
content: I think maybe if we request them from lcsc they would stuck them, for the datasheet, I do not think something bigger comes out with in 1-2 year, since Chinese parts always have low pages datasheets.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 17, 2021, 07:32:49 am
content: That's just too many issues to resolve for unclear benefit. The small datasheet makes the part unusable, there is just too much guessing. Does not even matter that it is in Chinese, there is information missing.I would be up for designing a board and poking at it a bit, but having to order from taobao does it for me. I'm not ordering from a site I can't understand.

author: SuperFungus
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 17, 2021, 12:29:04 pm
content: I'm also pretty interested in this wch part.Just to add to the list of USB HS micros, there is also the LPC4330 which has some io and dma features which makes it pretty compelling even vs things like the fx2