Arduino woe's - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 26, 2012, 09:01:33 am
content: Trying to get my PSU board working with the Arduino/AVR environment, let's document my problems...1) Cannot find my Sparkfun FTDI serial board, so tried an SI labs no-name board. Doesn't work at all wiht a proper Ardunio Pro board.2) Tried my official AVR ispMkII programmer to program the PSU micro. Nope, turns out the Arduino has major problems with the ispMKII under Windows. Everyone tells me to use Linux... or this or that brand programmer etc... don't have any of those, thanks anyway.3) Uninstalled the Jungo MKII driver and installed the recommended libUSB driver. Still doesn't work with Arduino pro.4) Removed the micro from an Arduino Duemelinove so I could use it as an FTDI interface. That works OK when talking to the Arduino pro board. Getting somewhere...5) Tried using the AVRispMkII with Arduino IDE to program the bootloader on my PSU board. Doesn't work.6) Installed latest Atmel AVR Studio 5 software. Talks to the ispMKII and updates the latets firmware, no problems. But then refuses to talk to the ispMKII at all using either Jungo or libUSB drivers.7) Used my old machine with AVR Studio 4 and now ispMkII works fine on my PSU board and I can burn a bootloader - or so I think.Existing working Duemelinove/FTDI interface still works with Arduino Pro board, but refuses to work with my PSU board. tried various reset things to no avail.9) Used my old machine and Studio 4 to read the firmware from the actual Arduino Pro board and clone it onto my PSU board. PSU board STILL doesn't talk with Arduino IDE.So there you have, a entire day wasted trying to get this stupid thing working.I am very quickly coming to the conclusion that the Arduino environment is shit, and AVR Studio 5 is shit, and am starting to regret using both now...Never had any issues before with Studio 4 and AVR's direct with ispMKII programmer, it's always worked for me.Not happy.Dave.

author: siliconmix
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 26, 2012, 09:09:31 am
content: sounds like video blog material to me.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 26, 2012, 09:16:48 am
content: Quote from: siliconmix on January 26, 2012, 09:09:31 amYou mean where I smash my new PSU board with a sledgehammer and then redesign it with a PIC?Dave.

author: PeterG
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 26, 2012, 09:19:08 am
content: Quote from: siliconmix on January 26, 2012, 09:09:31 amI can feel a major video Rant on its way.Regards

author: PeterG
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 26, 2012, 09:20:10 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on January 26, 2012, 09:16:48 amyep i knew the PIC word would come out...Regards

author: firewalker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 26, 2012, 09:29:33 am
content: When you loaded the boot loader did you set the correct fuses to the avr?Personally I never had any problem loading Arduino build firmware to any compatible target with any programmer. I only had to set some options to programmers.txt file.Alexander.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 26, 2012, 09:31:13 am
content: QuoteHave you programmed the config fuses ? Remember the default is for CLKDIV8 to be programmed, so a factory-fresh chip will run at 1MHz from the intrc OSC/8A quick check is to scope the osc pins - if not oscillating it's running off the internal RC osc, so other confiigs probably also wrong

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 26, 2012, 09:58:56 am
content: Everybody should have a Linux box somewhere, for peace of mind if nothing else

author: Chet T16
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 26, 2012, 10:03:31 am
content: Can't you just use the arduino as an ISP?

author: fmaimon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 26, 2012, 10:25:23 am
content: Are you using the capacitor on the reset pin? Try removing it.

author: firewalker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 26, 2012, 10:33:11 am
content: I you ask me, forget the Arduino boot loaders. Just write your software an make it do what you want and load it with your programmer. After that you can "play" with any arduino part.If am correct arduino uses FTDIs RTS, DTR to reset the chip prior to programming. Many people burns the bootloader correctly and use a normal serial connection to the avr. This doesn't work.Alexander.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 26, 2012, 10:43:49 am
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on January 26, 2012, 09:31:13 amThe Arduino bootloader HEX ensures that is disabled.Dave.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 26, 2012, 10:51:23 am
content: Quote from: fmaimon on January 26, 2012, 10:25:23 amThat didn't initially fix it, but yes, it makes a difference.Have got it working now. Don't ask me exactly what it was, but after eventually programming the bootloader for the 10th time, it's finally decided to work.My PSU board now looks like an 8MHz Arduino Pro and seems to program fine now using the Arduino IDE in serial mode using the FTDI chip on the Arduino Duemilanove.The ispMKII still doesn't work with AVR Studio 5 or the Arduino IDE/avrdude, both of which are inexcusable.BTW, does not work with the cap to ground on reset line, and works with or without the serial cap in the reset line.Dave.

author: firewalker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 26, 2012, 10:54:26 am
content: Are you going to write the code using Arduino or plain C?Alexander.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 26, 2012, 11:25:53 am
content: Quote from: firewalker on January 26, 2012, 10:54:26 amArduino.Hence all the grief. Otherwise I would have just given up and went back and used AVR Studio 4 that works like I've used in the past.Dave.

author: firewalker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 26, 2012, 11:31:36 am
content: Ah! I thought you only wanted the bootloader as an extra feature for other users. As an "Arduino ready" board. Makes sense to me now.Alexander.Quote from: EEVblog on January 26, 2012, 11:25:53 am

author: westfw
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 26, 2012, 11:41:55 am
content: QuoteWhere do you get that idea, and which bootloader are you using?I don't think that the Arduino bootloader HEX files contain ANY fuse information. The optiboot (Uno) bootloader certainly doesn't; the bootloader makefiles set the fuses entirely separately. So does the IDE (resulting in at least one bug, since the multiple runs of avrdude apparently don't have enough time between them to allow the dragon to re-instantiate...I don't know about your ispMKII. At what point does it fail? Can AVRDude talk to it at all?How old was the firmware it was running before AS4 "upgraded" it? Perhaps it was trying to run too fast for the internal 1MHz clock of a factory-fresh AVR; that might explain a lot of f the difficulties. (I would have THOUGHT that Atmel software would be more careful about things like that, but I've no actual experience.)No comment on AVR Studio 5 :-(The average Arduino user isn't supposed to have to muck with the bootloader at all. Or Fuses, or FTDI converters (thus the "Pro" part of the sparkfun name?)

author: RJSC
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 26, 2012, 11:50:08 am
content: The only good thing about the arduino are the tons of pre-made libraries for almost everything, like rotary encoder debounce, sd card fat32 management, ethernet, graphics LCDs, IDE, etc, etc...For people that are not at ease with complex software such as myself, It would facilitate things a lot, but even so, I don't use it.Since there is no de facto standard C compiler for PIC (especially for 12/16/18 series) we have to code everything from scratch which, for me rules out things like using SD cards or ethernet.

author: shebu18
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 26, 2012, 11:59:28 am
content: At the reset pin you do not have to put the cap between reset and gnd, but instead just between the line.reset form ftdii---cap---reset pin on PSU board. This one solved the problem i had with the ftdi from sparkfun.You have to be careful with the fuse you set. read them from the arduino chip and write them after you uploaded the bootloader to the new chip.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 26, 2012, 12:03:35 pm
content: i've changed a circuit due to PIC micro ADC0 is not working as expected. let if bulk pcb ordered, it will be a mess jumper wires and cut traces going aroundi will be looking for 1stooges rant vblog, its been a while since vblog like pickit3 rant quality was published.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 26, 2012, 12:15:44 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on January 26, 2012, 10:43:49 amDon't think so, unless Atmel have changed it fairly recently, their hex files don't include fuse info, which is an utterly major PITA, which I've complained to them about on many occasions over the years and last time they still didn't understand why it was so much of a problem.Their answer was often along the lines of "we don't make production programmers", to which my answer was that at the very least they must define a standard for doing it, as having third parties all doing their own thing is a nightmare.I don't know if Atmel have pulled their finger out yet on this one.Always check the settings in AVR Studio by reading them back.

author: firewalker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 26, 2012, 12:39:34 pm
content: For GCC I believe that you can declare your FUSE settings in your code. objdump will extract the FUSE files from the .elf binary. After that you programmer software can automatically programs the target. Don't know if Arduino does so.http://www.nongnu.org/avr-libc/user-manual/group__avr__fuse.htmlAlexander.

author: LEECH666
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 26, 2012, 01:01:00 pm
content: I read that Atmels ELF format can contain fusebit information. Haven't used this myself tho.Arduino just uses AVRdude under the hood.I think which fuses are set when you burn the bootloader is actually defined in the boards.txt which can be found in yourX:\...\arduino-xxx\hardware\arduino\folder.ExampleQuoteYou could try to flash the bootloader over the command line with avr dude and your Atmel AVR ISP mkII with the following commandline:QuoteMy example commandline assumes that both the avrdude.conf and the hex file are in the same folder as avrdude.Dunno if this will be of any help but here it is anyway.Florian

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 26, 2012, 01:33:22 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on January 26, 2012, 12:15:44 pmI loaded in the HEX in the program screen and I swear that config fuses changed in the other screen.In any case, the CDIV8 flag was not set, so it makes no difference, I'm well aware of that flag in AVR's.Still unsure what the actual problem was in the end.At least it looks like I'm up and running in the Arduino IDE. AVR Studio 5 and the ispMKII problems live to fight another day.Dave.

author: westfw
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 26, 2012, 01:34:59 pm
content: Quote from: RJSC on January 26, 2012, 11:50:08 amNo, you're also supposed to be able to plug it in and have it start working right away, which is what Dave was unhappy not to get. He was expecting a much deeper level of "working" than most beginning arduino users.If you end up wanting some help with the arduino side of things, let me know...

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 26, 2012, 01:45:23 pm
content: Quote from: westfw on January 26, 2012, 01:34:59 pmYes, like working with the official AVR ispMK2 programmer as claimed would have been nice!Dave.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 26, 2012, 02:38:53 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on January 26, 2012, 01:33:22 pmBy default ( I think) when you click the fuses tab it reads them from the connected device, which may explain a change from what they were at startup - this is often a PITA and can be disabled.QuoteMaybe an Avrisp firmware version issue? ISTR various different AVR Studio versions wanting to update Avrisp firmware.BTW you definitely do not want a cap on resat as it prevents debugwire working.

author: westfw
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 26, 2012, 03:09:29 pm
content: If you have a working duemilanove, and primarily wan to burn bootloaders into other AVR chips, I recommend the (my!) "Optiloader" program. This is a sketch that includes binaries for the optiboot bootloader for m8, m168, m328, and m328p AVRs. You run it on your working arduino, connect some wires (or an ISP cable) to the Device to be Programed, and hit reset or a key on the keyboard. It then peeks at the DtbP signature, picks the right bootloader and start address, picks the right fuses, and "poof", you get a new AVR with bootloader.https://github.com/WestfW/OptiLoaderVideo of it doing its thing on a variety of Arduino clones:(someday that's supposed to get narration and accompanying text. I'm in awe of people like Dave that can just talk into a camera and have reasonably useful noises come out...)This does assume a 16MHz AVR loaded up with a 115200bps version of optiboot, which may not match the PSU design. If it's 8MHz, you could just upload at 57600 instead, using a modified/additional boards.txt.Lady Ada liked it and modified it to support the adafruit bootloader (and thus more general hex files as well, I think, as well as some other bells and whistles.) Her version is here:https://github.com/adafruit/Standalone-Arduino-AVR-ISP-programmerThe "reset capacitor" people are talking about is a temporary kludge to defeat auto-reset. Otherwise you can have avrdude end up talking to the bootloader on your arduinoISP instead of to the arduinoISP sketch itself (and thence to the target device.) You wouldn't leave it in there permanently.Arduino just calls avrdude to do bootloader programming; if it didn't work that implies that avrdude has a problem (or driver issues.) AVRDude is for sure supposed to support the Atmel hardware. (but it appears, not the Atmel drivers. You're apparently supposed to use the atmel drivers (JUNGO?) with AS, and the libusb drivers with Avrdude/arduino. (Yuck!) (http://mightyohm.com/blog/2010/09/avrisp-mkii-libusb-drivers-for-windows-7-vista-x64/) (maybe it depends on windows version?)

author: firewalker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 26, 2012, 03:35:57 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on January 26, 2012, 01:33:22 pmIf you load a boot loader via Arduino's IDE (Tools > Burn BootLoader), then yes it will set the appropriate FUSEs before the actual burning of the boot loader. After that it will set the correct lock FUSEs to protect the bootloader.Alexander.

author: IanJ
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 26, 2012, 07:24:28 pm
content: Is this any help?.......it's what I use.http://www.ladyada.net/make/usbtinyisp/index.htmlIan.

author: LEECH666
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 26, 2012, 10:24:23 pm
content: @IanI don't think Dave wants to bother with any 3rd Party DIY tools. He stated that in his video where he mods his AVR ISP MKII with an LM317 to power the target.Personally I use the USB Tiny ISP (self built pcb) and it works nicely with avrdude.I only completed it a few days ago.Here are two pictures.Florian

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 26, 2012, 10:46:18 pm
content: Quote from: westfw on January 26, 2012, 03:09:29 pmI tried the libUSB driver for Win 7, they didn't work either.Dave.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 26, 2012, 10:54:06 pm
content: Quote from: IanJ on January 26, 2012, 07:24:28 pmIt's of no help because I don't have one.I have the genuine Atmel ispMK2II programmer, so when that does not work as advertised with avrdude/arduino or Atmels own Studio 5 for some stupid reason, then these tools have serious problems.Having to use another third party tool to make it work won't make the tool less shitSo I tried doing the "Arduino thing" using the best official tool on the most popular OS (Windows, like it or not) and it gave me no end of grief and I've had to use work-rounds just to make it all work. Not good enough, not by a long shot.Dave.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 27, 2012, 02:37:13 am
content: Today's problem - I2C.This code does NOT work:Wire.Begin;Wire.beginTransmission(I2CoutputChip); //set the chip addressWire.write(0x09); //select the registerWire.write(0xEE); //send the command to the registerWire.endTransmission();All it does it send the I2C address, no data afterwards.Crazy.No matter what tutorial or example I check, they all say it's that easy and I'm doing nothing wrong.I2C data is captured on my Agilent, and all I see is the (correct) address byte, nothing more.WTF?Dave.

author: Rufus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 27, 2012, 03:00:17 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on January 27, 2012, 02:37:13 amIf the address doesn't get an ACK it won't go any further will it?

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 27, 2012, 03:49:18 am
content: Quote from: Rufus on January 27, 2012, 03:00:17 amYep, that's what happens.I assumed it would have just sent the data you told it to anyway.Fixed now.ThanksDave.

author: A-sic Enginerd
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 27, 2012, 06:29:49 am
content: Keep this thread bookmarked for the next time a rookie engineer / new grad is looking for advice from you."What it means to be an engineer"- you spend half your time working on your design- you spend the other half of your time wanking around with some third parties half-baked toolsAnd you know, it doesn't seem to matter the caliber of tools. In chip design we have annual budgets that measure in the millions for tools, and we still have issues. Haven't worked on a project yet where we didn't get bit by one tool bug or another that was painful as hell to get ironed out.

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 27, 2012, 06:35:20 am
content: Quote from: A-sic Enginerd on January 27, 2012, 06:29:49 am^^^ Very well said !Yeah, definitely this thread is bookmarked.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 27, 2012, 06:54:12 am
content: Quoteso dave got what he paid for avrispMk2

author: george graves
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 27, 2012, 09:23:45 am
content: Maybe I missed it, but what version of the IDE are you using?I've had he same problem - the only way I could get the avrisp mkII to work with the IDE was under Unbuntu. And IIRC that took some tweaks. It's insane. Please to a blog on it.Other methods that work is a Parallel port cable (I know....I know). And the arduino as an ISP.The adafruit tinyisp work like a charm right inside of windows (disclaimer, I work for adafruit)I am glad you are sticking with the arduino IDE - that's really going to open it up to people to hack easily (once they burn a silly bootloader!)

author: cybergibbons
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 27, 2012, 10:16:55 am
content: The AVR programmers all seem to have problems with AVR Studio 5.

author: fmaimon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 27, 2012, 10:27:59 am
content: Quote from: cybergibbons on January 27, 2012, 10:16:55 amNot quite. I'm using an AVRJTAG Mk2 and a STK500 with no problems with AS5. I don't have an AVRisp Mk2, so I can't test it.

author: Jimmy
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 27, 2012, 10:53:35 am
content: With the arduino software on a slower machine it will hang at the end of compiling just before it uploads. If this is happening just reset the board just before it starts to download the program.Buzz from HSBNE figured that one out for me.

author: firewalker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 27, 2012, 11:10:12 am
content: When you reach rotary encoders section have a look at this.http://www.buxtronix.net/2011/10/rotary-encoders-done-properly.htmlIt'sbuxtronix'scode.Alexander.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 27, 2012, 11:18:00 am
content: Quote from: george graves on January 27, 2012, 09:23:45 amI'm using the latest 1.0 IDE. And now everyone seems to be confirming what I have spent quite some time finding out, that it really buggy and doesn't work with "old" code and sketches. A lot of people are sticking with the previous legacy version.BTW, why is that onlyafterI commit to making an Arduino compatible product, does everyone come out of the woodwork and say how horrible it is and this and that doesn't work etcIt amazes me how such a development system can get such a public reputation for ease of use etc when in fact once you take the covers off, it's a nightmare?What kind of IDE allows you to easily delete your project files and directory with a menu option? What possessed anyone to add such a feature?Dave.

author: cybergibbons
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 27, 2012, 11:26:57 am
content: Where is this delete menu option, as I can't see it?

author: FreeThinker
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 27, 2012, 11:35:13 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on January 27, 2012, 11:18:00 amMaybe it is because until someone else confirms their findings they are scared to look foolish....The Kings new clothes syndome, who knows?

author: PeterG
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 27, 2012, 11:36:12 am
content: Given the issues Arduino seems to have, any chance of a PIC version?Just an idea.Regards

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 27, 2012, 11:45:45 am
content: Quote from: cybergibbons on January 27, 2012, 11:26:57 amDrop down arrow on the right side of the file tabs.I thought it just "deleted" the file from the tabDave.

author: Rerouter
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 27, 2012, 11:47:34 am
content: peterG, when dave hopefully releases the PCB layout, it will give us the freedom to make any varient we wish, i would think dave has settled for an AVR, and if he cant make much success with arduino may just start testing with raw AVR code, instead of the bootloader,equally i would love to see the pcb (both sides, the twitter pic only gives me so much) so that we could start adding things that may not serve any purpose to dave,[secretly i wish to add a low side sense line, so that i can use it to measure milliohm resistances for fault finding]

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 27, 2012, 11:47:46 am
content: Quote from: FreeThinker on January 27, 2012, 11:35:13 amI look foolish on every video I upload, so I have no such fearDave.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 27, 2012, 11:50:42 am
content: Quote from: PeterG on January 27, 2012, 11:36:12 amI in fact have a spin-off variation on the project that will be using a low end PIC. Not because of all this Arduino trouble, but because it was the cheapest and best device available for the task.Dave.

author: Bored@Work
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 27, 2012, 11:54:41 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on January 27, 2012, 11:18:00 amFanboyz and clueless "journalists", especially from Makezine preventing those with a clue from speaking up.I consider the Arduino and its software a stinking pile of shit. But I usually don't mention it too often, because the Arduino fanboys will come out and make a big fuss if you tell them the truth. And Arduino fanboyz are pretty much uneducable, so it doesn't make much sense to tell them the truth. Either they figure it out on their own the hard way or they are doomed to paddle in the Arduino sea of poo. Both is fine with me.

author: firewalker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 27, 2012, 11:59:54 am
content: Once you learn what Arduino does and how it implements various things it will be a lot easier. As everything it has a learning curve.It has issues that seems crazy to an experienced engineer. Issues that a simple user can't discover.The first thing I did though was to discard the IDE because I couldn't tolerate the look n' feel. I am using Code::Blocks or Eclipse.It would be a mistake to use a PIC now. Consider it a new experience. Or if you can't/don't want to continue it use plain C. It will still be Arduino compatible.Alexander.Quote from: EEVblog on January 27, 2012, 11:18:00 am

author: cybergibbons
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 27, 2012, 12:00:50 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on January 27, 2012, 11:45:45 amYeah - from being on that menu and being grouped with "New tab", I would assume it meant "Close tab", though might have questioned the use of the word "Delete". The warning tells me the sketch will be deleted but doesn't make it clear it is permanent or file based.

author: firewalker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 27, 2012, 12:06:26 pm
content: And no, Arduino isn't useless. It is very good for it purpose. People have made very interesting and complicated projects with it. Like arducopter.Arducopter.

author: cybergibbons
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 27, 2012, 12:11:39 pm
content: Quote from: BoredAtWork on January 27, 2012, 11:54:41 amThis is just Arduino-compatible i.e. an ATmega chip with an FTDI chip connected to it, and attempting to put their bootloader on it. Dave's tried using AVR Studio with an AVR programmer and it doesn't work - is that Arduino related?

author: Bored@Work
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 27, 2012, 12:25:20 pm
content: Quote from: cybergibbons on January 27, 2012, 12:11:39 pmRead Dave's complete entry.

author: cybergibbons
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 27, 2012, 12:42:06 pm
content: I've read the thread. If you took Arduino completely out of it, you've still got the situation where AVR Studio and an AVR programmer aren't working. I don't understand how you think that's because it's Arduino.

author: Bored@Work
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 27, 2012, 12:44:49 pm
content: Quote from: cybergibbons on January 27, 2012, 12:42:06 pmTypical Arduino fanboy. What part ofQuote from: EEVblog on January 27, 2012, 11:18:00 amdon't you understand?

author: tbscope
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 27, 2012, 12:45:41 pm
content: Quote from: BoredAtWork on January 27, 2012, 11:54:41 amYou are too harsh.Makezine for example is very good at getting people to do something.I don't like the screw ups of the latest arduino software either, But I have a lot of fun with the Arduino in general.And I would have designed the power supply a little bit different. I would have used the pin layout of an arduino to put headers on the power supply pcb. Then anyone could plug in their own prefered board: atmel based, pic based, arm, ... and supply some git repository where the code for each board could be uploaded.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 27, 2012, 12:49:19 pm
content: Quote from: tbscope on January 27, 2012, 12:45:41 pmFFS it's only a simple power supply!

author: Rerouter
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 27, 2012, 12:51:46 pm
content: tbscope, please remeber this was designed with a particular enclosure in mind and from looking at the pcb, size was at a premium, still, if you feel like throwing together your own varient, its open source, and nothing is limiting you from it,

author: Jimmy
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 27, 2012, 12:55:10 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on January 27, 2012, 12:49:19 pmsimple would have been done and dusted by now

author: cybergibbons
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 27, 2012, 01:10:38 pm
content: Quote from: BoredAtWork on January 27, 2012, 12:44:49 pmAll of it, thanks. The bulk of discussion on this thread has been around problems flashing the bootloader onto the chip.If an AVR chip won't work with AVR software and an AVR programmer, I'm not sure a third party environment is going to have much luck.The change from 0023 to 1.0, as far as I know, has only broken a very small number of things. The other changes were deliberate, and do stop older code working. The same has happened serveral times with GCC (for ARM and AVR in my experience) - changes needed to be made at the expense of backward compatibility.I've mainly developed in ASM and C for AVR, PIC and 8051 before now. I'm just putting forward the idea that most of the problems in this thread aren't caused by Arduino.Are you always so angry and aggressive?

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 27, 2012, 01:56:46 pm
content: Another hidden issue on AVRISP Mk.II is it keeps the ISP clock frequency in internal nonvolatile memory.I don't know what they ship as default, but if it's been speeded up to reduce programming time on chips that have previously had the CLKDIV8 disabled (and/or have external fast xtal/resonator) , it will then not program factory-fresh chips until you reduce the ISP clock back down.The fact that it is stored in internal NV memory is IMO stupid, as it can cause a lot of confusion as it can appear that the hardware is faulty if you;re not aware of it.

author: FreeThinker
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 27, 2012, 02:01:44 pm
content: Quote from: firewalker on January 27, 2012, 11:59:54 amArduino = Ease of use for the user?So why the learning curve for an experienced user? It should be Janet and John ( Opps my age is showing) and it appears not to be the case. So how is that useful for a beginner if you have to relearn everything to move on? Propitiatory systems lock you in and serve very little purpose in education but can generate a secure revenue stream perhaps that is the main driving force? Just my 2cents

author: senso
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 27, 2012, 02:32:47 pm
content: The Dragon also as the programming speed in the internal EEPROM, just remenber to use it, never failed me under Windows 7 64 bits and AVR Studio 4.something, sometimes we get frustated and cant see glaring error's, so just calm down and try the next day.Arduino is a little brain dead yes, but thats what you get with a strange IDE and crippled functions, I used it, for about 2 months, them I moved to avr-gcc and I have even wrote some tutorials to move over from arduino to nice clean C.

author: deephaven
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 27, 2012, 05:27:47 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on January 27, 2012, 11:50:42 amBeauty

author: Slothie
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 27, 2012, 06:28:42 pm
content: I've not used Arduino 1.0 and I won't until I see a compelling reason to. You always get cut on the bleeding edge....When was version 1.0 of ANYTHING any good?Using arduino 0026 at the moment, its a bit clunky but all works. On windows & Linux.The libraries are really good for the novice. Things "just work". I'done a fair bit with PICs and as good as MPlab is its not quite as "batteries included" as the Arduino ecosystem. Theres far more in it, but you have to find stuff and documentation scattered over the Microchip site. (or at least that was true a year or 2 ago, its been a while).

author: ivan747
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 27, 2012, 07:19:25 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on January 26, 2012, 09:16:48 amI believe so.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 27, 2012, 11:23:36 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on January 27, 2012, 01:56:46 pmThat could very well be my problem with Studio 5. It tells me some error about the clock rate...Dave.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2012, 12:25:10 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on January 27, 2012, 11:23:36 pmNot familiar with AS5, bit on AS4 there's I think a 'settings' tab in the programmer dialog to set the clock freq - 125Khz is a safe value, if a little slow.Cleverer AVR production programmers can prg the fuses at a slow rate then speed up for the main program area, which can save a good few seconds on the production line!

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 28, 2012, 01:54:21 am
content: Dave.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 28, 2012, 02:15:32 am
content: Its ALIVE!!!good job Dave

author: FenderBender
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2012, 02:33:36 am
content: Nice work! Wooo

author: Noize
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2012, 03:06:50 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on January 28, 2012, 01:54:21 am

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2012, 04:58:26 am
content: the shroud of the dark side has fallen. began the soft war has.

author: westfw
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2012, 06:41:54 am
content: QuoteSeriously? Because Dave started at "the wrong end.""I want to burn a bootloader into my homebuilt Arduino clone, and I can't get it to work. Why did I ever put an AVR in the box instead of the PICs I'm used to?" And as someone else pointed out, most of the problems seem to have been due to some sort of problem with the ISP mkII, which is only peripherally related to the Arduino environment.And yet in three days he went from a non-AVR-user to having "Hello World" on his LCD. Being overly harsh toward Arduino seems a bit ... over-zealous. Someone else try that with any other mcu and development environment they haven't used before...And while I'm pretty positive about Arduino in general, I don't have any problems finding complaints about it. Many are on the Arduino forums themselves, from experienced users, rather than the usual trolls... 1.0 in particular is "moderately controversial" in its amount of non-backward-compatibility. But "really buggy and doesn't work" isn't fair, either.Debugging the ISP mkII issues would be interesting. But I've only got STK100, STK500, and JTAGICE mk1.(The STK500 worked fine for reprogramming a bootloader, but I mostly use another Arduino...)

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 28, 2012, 08:35:54 am
content: Quote from: westfw on January 28, 2012, 06:41:54 amEveryone gets the impression I have never used AVR's before, I do not know where that comes from. I HAVE used AVR's and AVRstudio and other AVR IDE environments before on numerous projects.QuoteThen in what way was I over-zealous?It's been verbally beaten into me and everyone else over the last few years that the Arduino is the easiest thing since sliced bread, my mum could use it.Yet the latest 1.0 build seems to have broken tons of stuff and simply did not work for the examples I was after and some other stuff.The official I2C library (Wire) had a bug in it that prevented me getting my LCD working using 1.0 IDE.And the damn Arduino IDE deleted my entire code and subdirectory for goodness sake. That's the first time I can ever recall actually losing code using any development system, it's simply retarded.Also, the Arduino proudly claims that it supports the genuine AVR MKII for programming and bootloader options. It's didn't, at least easily not under Windows. And that was after I read the forums and did what was suggested to try and fix it in terms of drivers etc. It still doesn't work.My circumstances may have meant I encounted more problems than most, but they ARE problems with the Arduino environment, not my experience level or whatever.If I had been lucky, and happened to use the old IDE version (why would anyone do that?) and a different (non genuine AVR) programmer then things might have worked first go.I don't think I was being harsh at all, my response was based on my particular experience (pretty darn horrible) and my expectations (fairly high, and I think reasonably so, thisisthe Arduino...).Dave.

author: westfw
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2012, 09:33:30 am
content: BTW, I check a couple forums and the bootloader(s) source code.There is NOT any fuse information stored in the .HEX files of the bootloaders.avr-gcc has some features for defining fuse values, that are then put in a separate link section in the .elf file, but apparently none of the programmer tools support reading this, and the .hex file generation for the bootloaders doesn't do anything to include these sections in the .hex file, and the bootloader C code doesn't actually use any of the fuse-defining capabilities.

author: westfw
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2012, 09:41:32 am
content: QuoteThis is the same mkII that failed to work with any other (atmel-provided, official) software on that PC either, right? You ended up taking it to an older PC to finally get it to program a chip?Was the older PC another W7 system, or something older? I'm finding that the number of vendors who don't adequately support anything past WXP with their development tools to be pretty alarming. "doesn't work with Vista"; "doesn't work with 64bit OSes"; etc....

author: IanJ
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 28, 2012, 09:53:29 am
content: westfw has hit the nail on the head for me. Dave, you jumped past what the Arduino was created for and expected it to do something it was specifically designed to and under the realms of the other, more professional kit you have been used to.The Arduino: The beginner buys a board, no soldering req'd, downloads a free IDE and has the blink test running in minutes. End.Yes there are gripes and plenty of them, but kudos to you Dave for hanging in there and keeping the Arduino in your design. The proof though will be how easy it will be for folks who decide to build your Psu and getting code into the Atmel given you haven't used a full Arduino board that folks can simply connect to their PC.My Arduino gripes:- Using Notepad++ to edit I can't control the IDE via command line to compile/upload.- The bugs in their boards, i.e. V3.0 Nano where they left a pin on the FTDI chip floating causing USB connections to be very temperamental.My Arduino non-gripes:- Issues with V1.0 IDE......who cares, they only took me 10 minutes to fix.Ian.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 28, 2012, 10:41:58 am
content: Quote from: westfw on January 28, 2012, 09:41:32 amCorrect, using AVR Studio 4.I'm sure it would have worked on the new machine if I used Studio 4 instead of 5 though. Studio 5 is the problem.The Arduino has the same issues on both machines, with bother libUSB and Jungo drivers.QuoteBoth are Win7Dave.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 28, 2012, 10:46:58 am
content: Quote from: IanJ on January 28, 2012, 09:53:29 amGood luck doing that using 1.0 IDE with a lot of the existing examples out there, good chance they won't work.Arduino is going through some pain at the moment with 1.0, and I was caught up in that with bad timing. If I did this several months ago using <1.0 I would have far fewer issues.QuoteIt will be trivial using any compatible USB serial interface.My board looks and worksexactlylike an official Arduino Pro.Dave.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2012, 10:57:27 am
content: QuoteAn experienced developer ought to be able to get to ""Hello World" on a new MCU in hours not days. 3 days means the IDE and documentation are unnecessarily poor.I've never used the Arduino IDE, but from the comments here it seems like they do things in a nonstandard way for no good reason.A well designed IDE does not need to be hard or scary for the beginner, and a beginner IDE that differs from convention for no good reason will hinder more advanced users in transitioning from it to more traditional tools, as well as discouraging experienced MCU users from making their designs compatible with it.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 28, 2012, 11:09:15 am
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on January 28, 2012, 10:57:27 amYes, I've done it in a matter of hours on my first AVR project.This case was a combination of some shitty problems with Arduino, and lots of Murphy ensuring I hit every one of them.Dave.

author: firewalker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2012, 11:25:25 am
content: Yeh! Arduino RULEZ!!!Ho ho ho ho!Alexander.Quote from: EEVblog on January 28, 2012, 01:54:21 am

author: baljemmett
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 28, 2012, 06:07:38 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on January 28, 2012, 10:57:27 amQuite; the first microcontroller code I ever wrote was a Hello World controlled by a rotary encoder, and it was an evening's effort (the bulk of which was spent trying to work out why I kept killing the MOSFET that drove the backlight, not having realised it needed to be on the low side). Looking atthe celebratory photoI took at the time, I didn't even have caps on the 7805 which should tell you something about how green I was when it came to the hardware side of things!

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2012, 08:29:44 pm
content: Quoteyou are better than me that you didnt burn the breadboard

author: george graves
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2012, 09:13:54 pm
content: When I first started I was doing a lot of 12v power stuff. So I was using car battery as a "power supply" since I didn't have one. So needless to say, I melted quite a few breadboards.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 28, 2012, 10:56:31 pm
content: Quote from: george graves on January 28, 2012, 09:13:54 pmDR Suess power supply?

author: westfw
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2012, 02:26:29 am
content: QuoteHowever, the Arduino Pro is not the "standard" easy-to-use Arduino. It requires that third-party serial cable, which introduces connection, driver, auto-reset, and "where did it go" issues. (in fact, that was the first Murphy-ism that happened here - "Cannot find my FTDI board")(definitely the way to go, though. And it WILL make the PSU more approachable.)QuoteToo many changes at one time. AS5, Arduino, Arduino 1.0, new computer, new hardware...I hate it when that ends up being the way things have to be. (once typed in a Forth for 8085. Using a homebrew assembler. Running on a homebrew 8085 emulator. And then the Forth example I tried out didn't work behave as it was supposed to... Emulator error, assembler error, typing error, publication error, or just not understanding the Forth word? Grr.)

author: TerminalJack505
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2012, 02:54:24 am
content: Dave,I usually (95% of the time) do all of my AVR development in Linux with GVim and make files so I don't use AVR Studio much. When I saw that version 5 wasn't working with your AVRISP MkII I downloaded the latest version from Atmel onto my Windows 7 64-bit system and can report that it works fine with my AVRISP MkII.I didn't let it upgrade the firmware, however, since I don't want that jacking with avrdude under Linux. (Which it may or may not do but why fix it if it ain't broke.)

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 29, 2012, 08:22:56 am
content: Quote from: westfw on January 29, 2012, 02:26:29 amIt is exactly the same as a normal Arduino board which has (had) the exact same FTDI chip as the serial programming cable (at least on the recommended adapter sold by Sparkfun). Your PC, drivers, and Arduino do not know the difference. The only difference is whether the chip is mounted on the Arduino board, or on a separate board.Yes, the new generation Uno board et.al uses an AVR chip to replace the FTDI UART chip, but that's a moot point.So the Pro IS a standard easy to use Arduino, if you use the recommended serial adapter, you just need the extra board.Dave.

author: sonicj
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2012, 10:30:43 am
content: FTDI adaptors are 1/2 usb serial adaptor & 1/2 disappearing magic trick. its always there on your desk staring at you until just before you go to reach for it annnnd ITS GONE.-sj

author: westfw
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2012, 12:35:09 pm
content: WRT "ease of use", it's different. Are there really that many people who will be confused by an FTDI cable/board/etc? Yes. Alas. (should/will they be building their own power supply? Probably not. So you should be OK. (a FAQ on the Arduio forums is "can I use a 9V 1A power supply on my Arduino that is only supposed to have 500mA, or will the extra power burn it out?"))

author: electrode
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2012, 12:24:49 pm
content: Just so there's something to learn from this thread: tips for those thinking of doing their own DIY Arduinos:(These steps are the same for Mac, Linux or Windows)Hardware:- ATMega8, 168 or 328.- 0.1uF cap to decouple power and ground.- Reset line should be pulled high through a resistor (eg. 4k7) and a 0.1uF cap inserieswith the reset line and the DTR pin of the serial cable.- 16 MHz crystal and 2 22pF capacitors as clock source.- If you don't have an ISP programmer, get a USBTinyISP. Probably the most compatible one out there and only $20. Note that another Arduino board can be used as an ISP programmer, but it sucks (25% reliable?).Steps to burn bootloader:Method 11. Plug in ISP cable and connect to board, install drivers.2. Burn bootloader via Arduino menu option. This sets the fuses as well.Done.Like Dave, I have had trouble with that at times on Windows (FTDI driver woes or something; Dave's problems were almost entirely Windows-driver related). Easy enough to troubleshoot in AVRDude though (more info for each step via Google):Method 21. Check that everything is responding:avrdude -c avrispmkII -p m328pInitialization failed= your programmer is working correctly, but the AVR is not plugged in properly or brokenCould not find USB device ____= AVRDude can't find your programmer (broken, not plugged in, missing drivers, etc)2. Set fuses as required by Arduino.3. Find your Arduino bootloader and load it on via AVRDude as well (google to find location of it for your OS).Just be logical and systematic about how you troubleshoot. Those 3 steps above apply to loading any piece of code onto AVR. No need for AVRStudio or any other clunk to get in the way of simple troubleshooting.Once the bootloader is done, the FTDI serial cable can be used to load the sketches directly from the Arduino IDE using the compile and upload button. Just make sure you select your board as duemilanove or uno if it's a 328 @ 16 MHz.

author: westfw
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2012, 05:48:35 am
content: QuoteI think I would recommend against this. If you're at all familiar with AVR programming in general, you'd be better off using normal AVR tools to program the bootloader; they'll hide fewer of the things that might go wrong.

author: electrode
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2012, 05:51:01 am
content: Remember the Arduino IDE uses avrdude and echos the responses accordingly. You can use verbose mode for more output if you run avrdude in the terminal though.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 03, 2012, 06:30:24 am
content: Quote from: electrode on February 02, 2012, 12:24:49 pm8MHz if using a 3.3V rail.Dave.

author: ivan747
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2012, 06:46:29 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on February 03, 2012, 06:30:24 amAnd at 8MHz it is programmed as a LilyPad.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 03, 2012, 11:14:16 pm
content: Quote from: ivan747 on February 03, 2012, 06:46:29 pmOr an Arduino Pro like I am using. There are options for 3.3V 8MHz or 5V 16MHzDave.

author: firewalker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2012, 11:30:47 pm
content: In what stage is the code now?Alexander.

author: kodon
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2012, 10:44:22 pm
content: Heh. Sounds familiar. I've had similar problems with burning the bootloaders with 3 different computers. Sometimes it worked out with AVR studio 4, sometimes AVR studio 5. I was also using the AVRISP mkII. The last time I had problems with this, I decided to update the firmware in the programmer (I've been told not to!). I have no clue if it did the trick, but I managed to get it work.So my conclusion is that the AVRISP mkII and everything related to it is a heap of crap. period.The arduino in the other hand, is a good way to start. I am not an experienced embedded programmer (or programmer at all!) but still I managed to do nice things with it. For example SD memory card, Real Time Clock, OneWire sensors, LCD displays, ZigBee and other radios, interrupts, power saving etc etc.So the bottom line is that if I buy an Atmel branded chips, programmer, use their tools etc etc I would very much indeed expect them to work... But no. Since I'm just a beginner with embedded stuff, I'm having second toughts moving to use TI's MCU's. Still the Arduino is pretty good thing to begin with. I'm currently using homemade FTDI USB board to program my project. It works with the Arduino IDE as Arduino Duemilanove.So the Arduino part has been working out nicely to me. Only drawback I had was the original bootloader which did not support sleeping the MCU. It has been fixed now, I hear. Other than that, I'm pretty happy.Just to know that you're not struggling with these things alone.-Kodon

author: gjh
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2012, 03:37:06 am
content: Wow I just went through this pain just trying to get my first Arduino going! I gave up in the end! Im happy to find out Im not the only one experiencing this and shocked by the reported issues in v1.0 of the Arduino IDE. I'll be sticking to more conventional paths.

author: jpelczar
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2012, 04:36:19 pm
content: Quote from: electrode on February 02, 2012, 12:24:49 pmIf one still has got paralell port on the mainboard, they could build ghetto ISP programmer (http://gopchandani.wordpress.com/2007/01/18/the-atmega32-programmer/orhttp://www.lancos.com/prog.html) just to burn the Arduino bootloader.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2012, 06:37:51 pm
content: Quote from: kodon on February 06, 2012, 10:44:22 pmfunny.. my experience is the opposite... that is , if you have a REAL AVRISP MKII and not a cheap wing-wang-pong clone !I had nothing but trouble with those flaky things like USBASP that emulate USB ( they are not even usb compliant , neither on timing nor signal levels )I bought the real AVRISP Mk II from atmel ( thru digikey) , installed avrstudo 4 and use the STK500 programmer module. If i plug the connector wrong then the programmer tells me. It doesn't burn up , it supports mulitple i/o voltage ( programmable ) and it lets you talk to all of the atmels.I also bought a fing-tai-chong clone from fleabay ... nothing but trouble.. i took both of them apart ( i'll post a teardown ). the original one has waaaaay more components and chips in it than the clone. the clone is essentially an ASP in the same box.

author: westfw
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 12, 2012, 01:22:28 am
content: >> I bought the real AVRISP Mk II from atmel, installed avrstudo 4 and use the STK500 programmer module.Have you used it with AVRDude? AVRStudio 5? AVRStudio 6? IIRC, one of Dave's original difficulties was that the firmware on the AVRISP kept being out-of-sync with the programming tool he was using... (Yeah, you could say "just use all Atmel tools, all the time", but then why are you posting in an Arduino thread?)

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 12, 2012, 03:04:45 am
content: used it with AVR studio 4 and AVr studio5 without problems. I don't get why anyone wants to muck about with stuff like avrdude and all those other homebrew pieces of junk. They are all half implementtions and based on half-arsed reverse engineering. And they are constantly behind the curve. I like to focus on what i am doing. Why spend time debugging your debugging tools ? why make screwdrivers if you can buy them ? i have something i want to put together... i'm not going to make my own screwdriver.Everything has to be cheap cheap cheap these days ... you get what you pay for. if 49$ for the real tool is too much : change hobbies. Making flower-arrangements is very popular i hear.i posted here in reply of the complaints about the AVRisp-mkII. nothing to do with arduino.Once you flashed the cpu with arduino's bootcode you simply replug it and then use the arduino code to update.I am also working on some 'arduino-compatible' system like dave's power supply. It is neither arduino form factor or hardware expandble. Fixed purpose board with dedicated peripherals. The master code is compiled AVR code. (which i release also) but , the wiring of my board is done in such a way that you can flash the arduino bootloader and then upload your own sketch . So if you don't want to spend money on the compiler then you flash arduino bootloader and you can use that environment to mod it to your hearts content.I just finished debugging the firmware. works perfectly fine. i also flashed arduino bootloader to try. works fine either way.

author: kodon
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 12, 2012, 05:00:34 pm
content: Quote from: free_electron on April 11, 2012, 06:37:51 pmQuoteEverything happened to be genuine Atmel branded devices. And that is why I was so pissed off about it. I was trying to burn a bootloader to the chip, but it just refused to work. What a pain in the ass.

author: electrode
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 12, 2012, 10:25:28 pm
content: Quote from: free_electron on April 12, 2012, 03:04:45 amPerhaps because avrdude has worked flawlessly for those people? What would you suggest mac/linux people use instead?

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 12, 2012, 10:28:05 pm
content: Quote from: electrode on April 12, 2012, 10:25:28 pmWindows perhaps ? with the real tools ? If you are so narrow minded you only have one flavor OS in your hobbylab ...

author: electrode
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 12, 2012, 10:29:54 pm
content: I hope you see the irony in that statement...

author: bilko
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 12, 2012, 10:33:07 pm
content: Quote from: free_electron on April 12, 2012, 03:04:45 amMost Linux users have the 'Real Kit' too, they also have Linux tools as well. One screwdriver does not fit all screws !!

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 12, 2012, 11:19:17 pm
content: Quote from: electrode on April 12, 2012, 10:29:54 pmYes ! Pun was intendedi don't take myself too seriously.

author: westfw
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 13, 2012, 04:11:25 am
content: On the one hand, if your tools only run on windows, you should just buy a windows system and deal (far less than $1000.) On the other hand, it's really annoying to be forced to use an environment that you just don't like. I picked an editor 30 years ago on the basis that it had versions running on all six of the major operating systems I was using or expected to use, rather than separately picking the "best" editor for each operating system. That's a smaller issue now that things are GUI'ed, but it's still one of my major annoyances with Arduino; that it doesn't support the familiar keystroke commands.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 13, 2012, 04:34:38 am
content: Exactly! Finally someone that understands what i'm saying.It doesn't do you any good to mope and complain that you car won't run on diesel if its got a petrol engine. You can complain all you want to the manufacturer, they don't listen. You either live with it, buy a different car or you buy a second car that does have a petrol engine.If atmel only release their tools on windows, so be it. There's tool that are linux only , solaris only or mac only. I could gripe all i want that final cut pro doesn't exist on pc, it is not going to change.Pc hardware is cheap , vm managers are free, windows is 99$ and linix (picking you distro is going to be the hardest choice here..) is free too. Multiboot you machine and off you go. You can even do it on a mac if you want.The operating system is only a layer that let's you run applications that let you do the things you want to.Why throw up additional roadblocks by using something that doesn't come from the device manufacturer. You'll have plenty of troubleshooting to do on the design itself, no need to inject more unknowns.And stances like 'i won't use windows because it is against my philisophy'... That's just daft. Use the right tool in the right place. You are doing yourself a disservice.That's my point of view.

author: electrode
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 13, 2012, 04:38:38 am
content: That's your point of view based on your premise that avrdude and friends are junk. I rejected your premise, not the statements you just followed with about using another OS if necessary.In other words, I'm not disagreeing that you should get a diesel car if you want to use diesel. Rather, I am asserting that petrol engines aren't junk.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 13, 2012, 05:14:15 am
content: Quote from: electrode on April 13, 2012, 04:38:38 amI call avrdude and friends junk because they are NOT the tool that is released ATMEL. It is throwing unknowns and uncertainties in the works.When debugging a design, the last thing you need is unreliable tools!Car analogy : I bought a community designed ferrari clone.. It is made from real ferrari spareparts (the dongle) but since we couldn't get the specs of the engine (the pc software and api) we sort of tried building it ourselves... From parts that belong to an old peugeot 305 ... Oh, and we had to mod it so the steering weel sits in the boot ( emulated usb on a device that does not have a usb controller) It fit better that way ( our engine design forced us to install it where the driver seat would normally be.. )It's a lot cheaper than having to buy the real ferrari, but you'll spend 10 years assembling it and it will stall every 10 miles of driving after which you will have to completely rebuild the engine and move the steering wheel to a different position.. That'll cost you another 3 years every time.We complained to ferrari that it's really hard to drive this thing , and why can't they just release the specs of that engine... They are such abunch of monopolistic capitalistic eggheads.. Mope, whine...Raises the question : why do you still want a ferrari...Meanwhile, the real ferrari driver is enjoying himself driving to a party... Which was his goal anyway.Simply use the things as they are made and intended to be used. Don't throw up roadblocks. No need to go look for trouble. Trouble is waaay ahead of you in that race...

author: TerminalJack505
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 13, 2012, 05:32:58 am
content: The back-end tool chain of AVR Studio that does the real work--that's all open source. The AVR C library, open source. Largely developed and supported by someone other than the vendor. So to imply that the vendor's tools are the end-all, be-all seems to gloss over the fact that all the vendor is really doing is providing a front end to these open source tools.Don't get me wrong, IDEs are nice. Hell, kids today can't seem to function without them. However, I have a problem when people seem to think Atmel's products are superior when said product is pretty much just a front-end to the same tools everyone else is using!LOL. I had a good laugh when I noticed that Atmel included an optional (beta) extension for AVR Studio 5 to support C++.Us Linux folks have been using C++ on AVRs for years.Years. Arduino's too. By the way: you're welcome for all the testing we've done for you Windows folks. While you were running version X of the toolchain we were running version Y.So far as AVRDude goes, I've never had any problems with it. I definitely wouldn't call it 'junk.' It actually seems extremely well engineered.I do have to agree about staying with the vendor's hardware. Especially if you're just going to save "chump change" by getting a 3rd party tool.Edited to add...http://youtu.be/oYZD1sQBdlE

author: westfw
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 13, 2012, 07:59:34 am
content: >> they don't listen.Actually, vendors get judged on how well they DO listen. I was astounded (and pleasantly surprised) that Microchip's MPLAB X is cross-platform. And TI's CCS is now based on Eclipse (even though CCS itself isn't multi-platform, at least it uses an IDE/GUI that is available on multiple platforms.) That EAGLE was not only made to run on Macs, but implemented a Mac-native GUI. Atmel's choice to have a new AVR Studio that was so dramatically single-platform was like a slap in the face.

author: Bored@Work
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 13, 2012, 03:23:03 pm
content: Quote from: westfw on April 13, 2012, 07:59:34 amEspecially because for a year or two before the release they hinted that great cross-platform tools were about to come.And you are absolutely right, manufacturers are judged by how well they do listen. And how honest they communicate, i.e. if they can be trusted or not.Funny enough, Atmel has recently instantiated some kind of ban on criticizing Atmel developers and developments on their community site AVRfreaks. Instead of listening to feedback they decided to stick their fingers in their ears and try to steamroll their customers.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 13, 2012, 04:18:32 pm
content: As for the vendors listening or not listening : that heavily depends on whom they cater to : the small developer crowd , or the 'large' developer crowd.Small developer crowd : lots of customers , low volume. Large developer crowd : few customers, gigantic volume.Microchip may be bending over backwards because there's plenty of new stuff out to eat their lunch.. You can get Cortex M3 based chip for the price of a lobotomized PIC16 ... they clearly cater to the small developer crowd.The problem is user support ... it becomes a massive burden to support all your users. sometimes you are better off with few of them , have one platform and support that one well , as opposed to doing 25 platforms and all of them being in a fuzzy state.Anyway. i don't know what mindset they are in and i don't care. I have work to do. The 'official tools' wil cause the least trouble. i don't want to fidget around with 'homebrew' tools. Give me an ICE and an IDE where i can trace code execution, set breakpoints / watchpoints and snoop around in the memory. Throw in a code profiler and i'm a pig in mud. A compiler is only the base. The debugging environment is the important bit.