MATRIX PowerWatch - TEG powered smart watch - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: ChristopherN
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 14, 2016, 03:25:00 pm
content: Just found this:https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/smartwatch-powered-by-you-matrix-powerwatch-watch-fitness#/commentsLooks interesting, and might be possible, but I'm skeptical if it's really worth the effort. The power output will differ a lot based on the user geo location and usage patterns.A Pebble runs for about 7 days, a Withings Steel for up to 8 months. I guess this thing is somewhere in the middle, it has a somewhat fancy display but lacks power hungry features such as live notifications and heart rate tracking.One interesting thing to note is that this project seems to be in cooperation with Arrow.

author: Koen
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2016, 01:11:37 am
content: https://www.cnet.com/news/matrix-powerwatch-no-charge-claims-to-last-on-body-heat/It's a shame they couldn't leave a final prototype to the writer for a few days/weeks for him to confirm its qualities. It includes a picture of its current prototype and "somewhat fancy display".Anyway, you might be interested by Seiko "Thermic" and Bulova "Thermatron".

author: edavid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2016, 04:07:03 am
content: Scam.1. It's not possible to manufacture a fancy watch case like that for $100K2. They can't produce enough power (they even admit it would have a battery inside)3. You can't measure calorie use that way, and their handwaving over the subject is pathetic

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 15, 2016, 12:27:53 pm
content: Haven't even watched the video and this raised a reg flag with me straight away.Most smart watches get battery life measured in weeks.Would be interesting to run the numbers on this one.Granted though, the extremities of the body like the hands and arms are used by the body to radiate heat during high intensity workouts.I suspect this will be a turkey if you don't exercise hard every day.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 15, 2016, 12:31:36 pm
content: http://www.gizmodo.com.au/2014/04/the-cool-promise-of-machines-that-run-on-body-heat/

author: rollatorwieltje
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 15, 2016, 12:38:44 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on November 15, 2016, 12:27:53 pmSeiko and Citizen made watches with a TEG in them, they were barely able to power a regular quartz movement. They want to run something with a Bluetooth radio built in...I wear a stainless steel automatic watch, after a few minutes on the wrist it feels pretty much uniformly heated up. Would be nice to take a look at it with a thermal camera, don't have one myself unfortunately.Also what's the point of a step counter (this "smart"watch actually doesn't seem very smart) when you're exercising... When you're exercising you're probably not the target audience for a step counter

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 15, 2016, 01:01:28 pm
content: Quote from: rollatorwieltje on November 15, 2016, 12:38:44 pmThis thing likely relies ona) Serious exercise (likely daily)and likely alsob) Movement by way of airflow. i.e try using it on a stationary bike and watch the efficiency drop.They say in the video they have a ton of data that proves it work, which of course they don't show.Of course it works, so does the Batteriser and uBeam, but the devil is in the practicality.

author: matrixindustries
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 16, 2016, 06:05:01 am
content: All,Not much I can say here off the bat that will convince you since you seem like hardcore skeptics. I can offer a visit to any of you that are interested in learning more about our TEG technology to drop by our lab. You can see a watch build for yourself and other demos we have setup.Otherwise, I'm happy to answer questions if you're interested.Thanks.

author: ChristopherN
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 16, 2016, 08:13:56 am
content: Hi matrixindustries,thanks for replying here.We're all technical people / EEs and like data better than marketing.Could you provide some real-world test data?For example:-TEG power output over a "normal" day with data points for skin temp, ambient air temp, case temp, airflow, ...-Power usage of your watch in its different operation modes like display only, BLE active, BLE RX, BLE TX, ...-An output diagram that shows ideal conditions.Don't get me wrong, I get that this may be confidential information. However, I guess you could silence all critics pretty soon if you provide some hard data. The technology behind this would be very interesting for other applications such as wireless sensor networks.ThanksChristopher

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 16, 2016, 10:04:28 am
content: Quote from: matrixindustries on November 16, 2016, 06:05:01 amWait, that's not an appropriate reply at ALL.Dave above raised a very good point. You don't mention anywhere in your campaign what parameters this watch requires to work. Engineers are going to assume there will need to be a substantial temperature differential which could only come about if you were in water, or on a bicycle, or running at a fast rate.But it doesn't say that anywhere in your campaign, and in the absence of that, non-engineers will look at your campaign page and assume that they can just strap this watch on and their body heat will power it.So what is the answer? What level of movement is required in order to make the watch operate? You need to give an honest answer on this, without hedging or evading.

author: hayatepilot
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 16, 2016, 12:36:56 pm
content: This is total BS.They want go generate power with the heat flow from your wrist to the ambient?Lets do some calculations:The human body loses about 80W through the skin and the surface area of the skin is about 2m2. This gives you 8mW/cm2of heat flow per area. Not too bad.But the efficiency of thermoelectric generators is VERY bad.They achieve about 10% of the carnot efficiency which is \( \eta=1-(Tc/Th) \) . With 10K temperature difference this yields a total efficiency of 0.33%With the surface area of the wrist of about 40cm2(very generous) you could expect about 1mW of electric power.But remember, this is under ideal conditions. If you wear long sleeves, the temperature gradient drops to almost zero and so does the power.Maybe it is enough for a normal watch, but not a smartwatch with bluetooth, etc.I would test the power output if I had a peltier element. I bet you it is almost not measurable.Greetings

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 16, 2016, 01:20:21 pm
content: Quote from: hayatepilot on November 16, 2016, 12:36:56 pmIt's going to be much better than that during hard exercise. They body literally shunts masses of blood to the arms in order to cool the body down.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 16, 2016, 01:25:08 pm
content: Quote from: matrixindustries on November 16, 2016, 06:05:01 amThanks for joiningNo need for questions, just show us the "tons of data to prove it works" as you said in your video. Real data. Don't dumb it down, give it to us raw if you like, we are engineers here.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 16, 2016, 01:31:50 pm
content: Quote from: matrixindustries on November 16, 2016, 06:05:01 amAnd what's wrong with engineers being skeptical about a product that is hyped to the hilt and that claims to do something well beyond what other companies have achieved in the past, and make those claims without a single scrap of engineering data to back it up? Of course engineers who know about these things are going to be skeptical, what did you expect?Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 16, 2016, 01:37:50 pm
content: And their "Certified by Arrow Electronics" sounds impressive until you read what it actually means:Arrow just verify that they can get the parts, not that it in any way meets it's performance clams.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 16, 2016, 01:47:45 pm
content: And bingo, here's the crux of it:QuoteSo it can run for TWO YEARS on the internal batterySo why not just stick an ordinary battery in it? or charge via USB? Because, well, marketing.The TEG part of it is a nothing more than gimmick in this case.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 16, 2016, 02:06:51 pm
content: 500uW power generation during exercise.We can now make some calcs:- Assuming that's 500uW available to charge the battery during exercise in their best case conditions. (Ignoring DC-DC losses)- Guessing 1/5 of that during rest, or 100uW. Could be much lower or zero, but hey.Then:- Assuming 1 hour of exercise a day for an active person, that's 0.5mWh.- Assuming 15 hours wearing the watch at rest, that's another 1.5mWh- Nothing for sleeping because it'll either be off, or under or against a sheet/blanket/pillow etc and will surely reach thermal equilibrium and not generate anything.So that's at best maybe 2mWh a day of generation.Let's say the micro and screen and whatnot takes 20uW, so subtract 480uWh takes us back to 1.5mWh a day.A single CR2032 is about 600mWh capacity, so assuming you exercised 1 hr every day for 365 days a year under ideal conditions (they said "cold, windy day"), that would be the equivalent to 400 days worth of a single CR2023.Given this is all ideal, double that number as a ballpark. 800 days.Conclusion: The TEG charging looks to be nothing more than a gimmick.

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 16, 2016, 02:20:12 pm
content: I do not go to gym but do people really wear watches in the gym? Id think there is possibilities to damage it plus all that sweat and smell. I would not want my watch stink.

author: rollatorwieltje
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 16, 2016, 02:44:49 pm
content: Quote from: Bud on November 16, 2016, 02:20:12 pmPlenty of watches with sport related features, i.e. heart rate, speed, stopwatch etc.Watches have been water tight since roughly the 1940's. I wouldn't recommend a leather strap when you sweat a lot, but pretty much anything else is fine. Just give it the occasional wash.

author: hayatepilot
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 16, 2016, 02:59:01 pm
content: There was a conventional thermoelectric watch: The Seiko Thermic.I've read that it didn't work that well in summer or in tropical regions, since the temperature difference is too small.Not to mention a conventional watch movement uses only about 1.5uW .I think one could generate more energy using mechanical rotors (like in automatic mechanical watches) or solar cells at lower cost.Thats probably the reason they don't make any thermoelectric watches anymore but there are plenty of kinetic and solar watches.

author: matrixindustries
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 16, 2016, 04:22:25 pm
content: All,There's absolutely nothing wrong with being skeptical, but the characterization is that we're a bunch of fly-by-night marketers. The team has between 5 and 13 years of thermoelectric experience. We're a bunch of geeks like you guys, PhDs in EE, Chemistry and Materials Science.The Arrow certification was important to us to quiet the skeptics. They reviewed the entire circuit diagram. It was not just a bill of materials scan.BLE radio obviously requires a lot of current, and that's where the internal battery takes over. Otherwise, your body heat is generating the power for the watch. That being said TEGs can light up LEDs when designed right.I'm obviously not going to change minds here and so I won't even try. My offer still stands that if any of you want to visit our lab and see a watch build from the bottom up or any of our other energy harvesting demos, you are welcome to. That's probably the only way for you to be convinced that this tech is for real.

author: edavid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 16, 2016, 04:34:22 pm
content: How about if you tell us what this means:Quote

author: Fred27
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 16, 2016, 04:38:26 pm
content: Quote from: matrixindustries on November 16, 2016, 04:22:25 pmThese two sentences pretty much indicate it's rubbish. You shouldn't be trying to quiet sceptics, you should be confident that you can change their minds. I'm sure everyone here is happy to admit they're wrong given some data to support your claims.

author: Artlav
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 16, 2016, 05:28:57 pm
content: Just did a quick test.A 40x40 mm TEG module with a radiator on the other side produces about 200uW after sitting on the wrist for a while. The room is at 24*C.Sounds like about the right ballpark.Tried to measure the skin temperature, but the thermal camera shown more or less rubbish at the absolute scale. Realtively, the spot under the TEG was 2*C colder.

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 16, 2016, 05:57:09 pm
content: Quote from: matrixindustries on November 16, 2016, 04:22:25 pmCan you please point us out to Arrow's certification service offer description. If such exists i am sure i can find it but with your help it will save me time since you went through it.

author: Stupid Beard
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 16, 2016, 06:25:32 pm
content: Quote from: Bud on November 16, 2016, 02:20:12 pmI don't go to the gym either, but I am a runner. Almost every runner and cyclist I know uses either a Garmin or a TomTom sports watch. That's because they have GPS, heart rate, cadence, etc and are first and foremost aimed at sports. Generally, even those that use other watches the rest of the time will use sports watches while running or cycling. This includes in gyms while using static bikes, but I don't know about other uses of the gym.To be fair, I'm talking about club runners so people who are pretty serious about running. It may be very different for the casual crowd that are exercising for other reasons, though I suspect that market will be dominated by phones and "fitness tracker" things like the fitbit.I guess what I'm saying is that during the activities where the most body heat is generated, almost nobody would be wearing a watch like the matrix powerwatch because it is not useful during those activities.

author: Koen
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 16, 2016, 08:13:04 pm
content: As a side note, what's up with the distributors perks in these campaigns ? Current selling price for 1 is 99 USD, the distributor perk is 100 for 9999 USD so there isn't even a discount and the eventual later MSRP would be 169 USD for 1. Who are the 4 persons who thought : this is great, I, as a business, will invest 10K in a project that may or may not ever see light to earn 20 USD on each watch I do manage to sell after the hype died down. Considering the crowdfunding risk, the fact you're out 10K for a year and the fact you'll be making a loss until the very last are sold at a profit.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 16, 2016, 09:57:39 pm
content: Quote from: matrixindustries on November 16, 2016, 04:22:25 pmNo one said otherwise. A cursory glance at your profiles reveals that.That does not mean your product is practical though.QuoteErr, the "circuit diagram" is nothing, the entire practicality of this concept reliesentirelyupon the system engineering of the entire solution. Thermodymanicas, the power envelopes, and theBTW, who are we actually speaking to here?QuoteSpare us the LED anecdote, please quantify your answers, we are engineers here, many with vast experience.QuoteCome on, don't give up, just so are the data, some data,anything.You can change our minds very easily.Why won't you simply provide us with data?Are you unable to, or afraid to?I think it's a pretty reasonable request.I went through some ballpark calculation before based on your own number, please tell me were I went wrong and why.And please tell us why your TEG solution is in any way more practical than a simple USB charging solution.I'll do an additional calculation to the ones above, maybe you can comment?Let's say you use the bluetooth until you drain your battery (can you give us the data on that?), and then decide you want to charge up your watch again.You would have to exercise for1200 hours straightto do that based on your best case number of 500uW, assuming no losses.How then is TEG a practical charging solution?I feel a video coming on...

author: albert22
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 16, 2016, 10:45:28 pm
content: Years ago I bought a "dynamo" led light and got tired of squeezing the thing to charge the battery. Until I torn it down and found it was a total fake. The battery was not rechargeable and not connected to the dynamo in any way.just as this oneAnd that was only two bucks. Please allow me to be skeptical.Also why I would care to charge with my sweat a battery that lasts 2 years?

author: matrixindustries
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 16, 2016, 11:49:11 pm
content: Dave, we welcome a video. My only request is that you interview a Matrix team member to hear our side of the story. Also, happy to share our confidential data with you in private. Easiest would be for you to visit our lab, but I take it you're in New Zealand? Maybe we can do a Skype call? Please contact us at support@matrixindustries.com to set something up. I promise we don't bite.Also, I think the bigger picture here is that we are trying to get thermoelectric energy harvesting into the mainstream. There are a lot of use case beyond a smartwatch as I'm sure you can agree. We are a small startup and we're very passionate about thermoelectrics especially as it applies to wearables and IoT.You may think our watch is a gimmick, but we certainly don't. We've spent the better part of five years developing a system level solution for this tech, from optimizing the hardware's power consumption and also the firmware.

author: ludzinc
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 17, 2016, 12:03:29 am
content: Quote from: matrixindustries on November 16, 2016, 11:49:11 pmYou bastards fight dirty.

author: matrixindustries
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 17, 2016, 12:09:39 am
content: LOL, I have no idea what that means.Also, should have said, we've spent the better part of five years optimizing the TEGs, thermal engineering, AND hardware/firmware.

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 17, 2016, 12:10:25 am
content: Ok so seems you ignored my request for help, anyway it was not hard to find Arrow certification offerhttps://www.arrow.com/en/indiegogo/get-certifiedJust the URL itself says it all. Do i heed to repeat?.../indiegogo/get-certifiedSeems Arrow found a genuine wag to tap into the Indiegigo streamStill, and as was expected, they only assess from manufacturability , not from practicality perspective. So no, your watch certification by Arrow tells me exactly nothing.

author: matrixindustries
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 17, 2016, 12:15:10 am
content: Sorry, I missed your comment.

author: edavid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 17, 2016, 12:20:34 am
content: Quote from: matrixindustries on November 17, 2016, 12:15:10 amI guess you missed mine too:How about if you tell us what this means:Quote

author: Carl_Smith
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 17, 2016, 01:01:11 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on November 16, 2016, 01:47:45 pmSo they will ship the watch with a fully charged battery and nobody will figure out until 2 years later that the TEG provides no significant power contribution...

author: matrixindustries
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 17, 2016, 01:11:33 am
content: edavid, yep missed your comment too.A direct measurement of calorie loss is by measuring heat loss from the body. You can find more info on your own through a search of the academic literature, which I'll spare you of here. Most gadgets measure caloric loss by measuring respiration, or heart beat, or step count.

author: matrixindustries
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 17, 2016, 01:12:53 am
content: Carl_Smith: the PowerWatch provides more power than the watch consumes when it's worn.

author: edavid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 17, 2016, 01:30:22 am
content: Quote from: matrixindustries on November 17, 2016, 01:11:33 amHow can you measure heat loss over the whole body from a single point temperature measurement?QuoteNo, I definitely want your citations! Thanks!QuoteWhy do they bother with that if your simple thermal method works?

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 17, 2016, 01:38:59 am
content: Quote from: matrixindustries on November 16, 2016, 04:22:25 pmIf you have actual data, then I think everyone here would be very happy to stand corrected. It has happened before - and people who were first treated skeptically have been welcomed and found lots of support among the members.Dave has put forth some calculations which I don't see anything wrong with, and which match my gut feel (and that of other members) - which is that the very best case would be that tiny amounts of power would be generated only with the very best case (cold weather and heavy exercise) and would be dramatically less than if you just plugged the thing into a USB port for literally a few minutes.On that basis, the TEG stuff seems like nothing more than a gimmick. You haven't disclosed at all to your backers under what conditions they can expect the watch to generate power, which indicates you don't want to give out that information. Why not?I hope Dave takes you up on your offer - because he doesn't tolerate or fall for BS. And so far, the "we aren't going to convince anyone so why bother" stuff comes across as "we're not going to fool anyone here so we won't bother trying".I would very much like to find out I am wrong on that. But I tend to doubt it.I am also very curious what this Arrow certification is. I work with Arrow quite a lot - I will have to make some inquiries about you guys and see who you talked to and what exactly this "certification" involved. You say they looked at the design - are you suggesting they are assuring it will perform as advertised? That is very much the way you are presenting their certification to your backers, but I am certain they are making no such representation about whether your watch will work as claimed. I'd like to know what this certification actually involves, specifically.

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 17, 2016, 02:01:22 am
content: Per Arrow's website, Arrow certification" has NOTHING to do with whether the product actually works or does what it claims to do.Arrow certification on IGG is:1) BOM review to make sure you haven't forgotten anything or haven't specified parts that have lower cost alternatives (more likely they probably just want to see if Arrow has any cross reference PN's for items on the BOM they don't carry).2) DFM review. Says their team will analyze how viable your product is for manufacture at low cost - their engineers will identify issues.Nothing about whether the device will perform as claimed or anything like that. They are hyping up the Arrow certification as some form of expert review and stamp of approval of their design (saying it was important to quiet the skeptics). It is nothing of the sort. Claiming otherwise is a big red flag.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 17, 2016, 02:47:12 am
content: Quote from: matrixindustries on November 16, 2016, 11:49:11 pmNot going to happen, I do my own thing.If you don't publish public data, that's your choice. I'll do my own calcs.No secret squirrel stuff.QuoteThat's wonderful, and I support that, but that's got nothing to do with the practicality of your product.Your inability to provide data or answer questions with quantitative answers speaker volumes about the practicality of your product.QuoteThat's great, but you aretaking other people's money. The practicality of your product will be questioned by engineers.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 17, 2016, 02:48:08 am
content: Quote from: matrixindustries on November 17, 2016, 12:09:39 amThat's great, but thatdoesn'tautomatically make your product a practical idea.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 17, 2016, 02:57:57 am
content: Quote from: matrixindustries on November 17, 2016, 01:11:33 amHow does your algorithm account for the autonomic nervous system shunting heat around the body during exercise?

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 17, 2016, 02:59:58 am
content: Quote from: matrixindustries on November 17, 2016, 01:12:53 amWhy can't you quantify anything?How much more on average?And given that you have not critiqued my calculations in any way, I'm going to assume that I'm not far off the money.Also, one question, what is the capacity of the internal battery?And what type of battery/supercap is it?

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 17, 2016, 03:02:09 am
content: Quote from: Corporate666 on November 17, 2016, 02:01:22 amYep

author: Carl_Smith
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 17, 2016, 04:01:06 am
content: Quote from: matrixindustries on November 17, 2016, 01:12:53 amThen why does it need a battery that is apparently capable of running the watch for 2 years?I had the idea years ago to power a watch of a thermoelectric generator. But I wasn't planning to power a smartwatch, just a normal digital watch, which requires far less power. I never planned to make it a product, just hack something together as an experiment and throw a write up on my blog page, because after a bit of thinking I realized it wasn't practical for anything other than an experiment. It didn't take much thought to come up with all the problems that everyone here has already brought up, like the fact that you usually have only a few degrees temperature difference between skin temp and air temp. And what happens if you don't wear it when sleeping, or if you do, but it ends up under a blanket or pillow? What if you are outside in the summer and the air temperature actually climbs up to or even exceeds a person's normal skin temperature? Or the sun shines on the watch and warms it up close to or above skin temperature?I find energy harvesting concepts very interesting. I was amazed when I first learned that someone had designed a light switch that could capture enough energy from just the click of the switch to power up a zigbee radio and send an on/off command to a wireless light controller. I think we are all prepared to be amazed again if you can make this work, but as of yet you've had plenty of opportunity to provide some hard data to back up your claims and completely failed to do so. Which leads me to believe that this product is mostly just wishful thinking.

author: JimRemington
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 17, 2016, 04:09:32 am
content: QuoteWell, that was your big mistake. Indiegogo and Kickstarter have shown over and over again that these ideas can be very, very practical for parting fools from their money!As for me, I can't wait for my Fontus self-replenishing water bottle to arrive, which, fascinatingly enough, works on the reverse principle of the Matrix PowerWatch.

author: Carl_Smith
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 17, 2016, 05:05:12 am
content: Quote from: JimRemington on November 17, 2016, 04:09:32 amOoooh. You're onto something there. Put the two together and you might be able to make an endlessly filling water bottle that always tells the time.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 17, 2016, 09:47:08 am
content: I was close to the mark on the battery:From:https://www.engadget.com/2016/11/14/matrix-powerwatch-hands-on/

author: ludzinc
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 17, 2016, 10:15:34 am
content: Quote from: ludzinc on November 17, 2016, 12:03:29 amAccusing an Australian of coming from Kiwi Land is almost as bad as knocking off your mates last stubbie from his esky.

author: Fred27
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 17, 2016, 11:01:28 am
content: Best comment so far, ludzinc. :-)

author: matrixindustries
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 17, 2016, 06:01:19 pm
content: I agree, best comment. LOL! ludzinc: If you're ever in silicon valley, hit us up, stubbies from my esky on me. In my defense, it's hard to see that extra star below the Union Jack.Ok Carl_Smith has inspired me to upload some photos. They are a sampling of just a few of our prototypes over the years. I will upload them in chronological order.

author: matrixindustries
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 17, 2016, 06:41:56 pm
content: This is our very first prototype. The second hand starts to move when worn. It does not have a battery/supercap. We bought the heat exchanger from eBay. It's a laptop heat sink. Not very practical, but very fun to build!

author: PA0PBZ
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 17, 2016, 06:43:03 pm
content: Quote from: matrixindustries on November 17, 2016, 06:01:19 pmPoint your mouse at the flag and the miracle happens.

author: matrixindustries
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 17, 2016, 06:44:10 pm
content: Australia! Need to run, will be back soon to post more.

author: matrixindustries
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 17, 2016, 07:20:06 pm
content: Here is another one. Do you guys know what heat pipes are?

author: matrixindustries
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 17, 2016, 07:24:49 pm
content: This is an ugly looking bracelet, but starting to have more "smarts". A LCD display and the Ambiq Apollo MCU.

author: matrixindustries
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 17, 2016, 07:28:57 pm
content: Now we started to get more serious. Built an actual watch form factor with our TEGs inside. We then interfaced it to a Microview (Arduino based) controller. The box also has a DC-DC boost, coulomb counting, and a SD card to store raw data, i.e. voltage, current, and power. We looked like cyborgs with the watch, box, and wires strapped to our arms while field testing.

author: matrixindustries
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 17, 2016, 07:30:55 pm
content: In the final prototype, we packed all that stuff inside the watch and go about our day without looking weird. At the end of the day, we would download raw current, voltage, and power data to an app we built. The picture shows the watch transmitting its data to the phone.

author: DmitryL
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 17, 2016, 08:14:27 pm
content: 'scuse me... How exactly have you managed to pack that huge heatsink and long heat pipes into this small case on the last photo ?

author: firewalker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 17, 2016, 08:31:13 pm
content: What happens when the arm is colder that the air? Is there any reverse polarity protection?Alexander.

author: matrixindustries
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 17, 2016, 09:32:24 pm
content: DC-DC boosts can be both unipolar or bipolar.

author: JimRemington
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 17, 2016, 10:36:24 pm
content: QuoteMost of us do, and most of us are also well aware that common heat pipes don't begin to work efficiently until the temperature is well above the temperature of human skin, i.e. above the triple point of the working fluid.Which particular technology are you using?

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 17, 2016, 10:44:31 pm
content: @ MatrixindustriesWhy are you still refusing to comment on my calculations about thepracticalityof your product?No one here doubts your product "works", but what is the point of having a TEG charged battery if it takes that battery 1000+ hours of exercise to charge it? How is itnota gimmick?

author: matrixindustries
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2016, 12:47:36 am
content: Jim Remington, the fluid inside of that heat pipe in the picture is just water. Triple point of water is 0.01C and 6.1 mBar. Water is commonly used in applications where the temperature is between 20C and 100C.

author: matrixindustries
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2016, 12:49:56 am
content: Dave, I’m not refusing, just giving it a lot of thought. You’re obviously a brilliant guy and I don’t want to get into a pissing match with you.It’s hard to answer this question because how do I encapsulate the last five years of our lives, actually 13 years in my case, in a neat, tidied up answer to a complete stranger? Would a one sentence answer finally settle it? You’ve obviously already read the Engadget article, since you posted it earlier, that had the title, “The PowerWatch is a body heat-powered smartwatch that does very little.” This is our first generation smartwatch and we’re still learning how to improve it. Some people like it, and of course some don’t.The PowerWatch generates more power than it consumes when it’s worn. But what happens when it’s taken off and left off for a long time? What do you do when you have enough room to add a 200 mAh battery? Do you choose a tiny supercap instead that barely supports the BLE TX, RX, syncing?Also we chose to come out of stealth with a commercial product, but in the big picture, we see this tech going into smart sensors for factories and industry, smart logistics, perhaps medical devices like hearing aids. Longer term, this technology, we hope, will help increase fuel efficiency for power plants or automobiles, which we hope would be good for the environment.I guess what I’m trying to say is that we’re very passionate about thermoelectrics. The most inspiring photo ever captured in my opinion is “The Pale Blue Dot”, when Voyager 1 turned around and took a picture of Earth. Carl Sagan has a beautiful description of it. Voyager 1 is of course powered by a thermoelectric.

author: timb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2016, 01:17:28 am
content: Quote from: matrixindustries on November 18, 2016, 12:49:56 amIt doesn't have to be one sentence. You can explain in painstakingly intricate detail if you like.Or, you could *post some data* to back up your claims! Just throw a zip file of your raw data up and provide a link, we'd be happy to format and process it even. Just provide us with something, anything!There should be zero reason you can't do that. (Unless you're scared it won't hold up to scrutiny?)Quote from: matrixindustries on November 18, 2016, 12:49:56 am"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." -Carl Sagan

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 18, 2016, 01:34:15 am
content: Quote from: matrixindustries on November 18, 2016, 12:49:56 amThere need be no pissing match, simply post some data.QuoteWhat's that got to do with anything?You are taking people's money and selling a product. That product is either useful or it isn't. It's either practical or it's not.Based on the numbers I don't see your product being either of those things, and you have provided no data or clarification otherwise, just this "we've been working so hard at it, it's our life and passion" speech.You are not selling that story and asking for donations to fulfill your dreams, you are selling a product that is being marketed in a certain way that makes people think it's useful, when clearly the calculations show it's not.QuoteI have absolutely no doubt that it does.What you are not seeing here is that concept isentirely pointlessapart from being cool gimmick.You could have put a CR2032 coin cell battery in there and gotten the same "never have to change the battery" claim. You can buy 10 year lifetime battery watches from Casio and others.QuoteOk, let's look at the bluetooth syncing.Give us the numbers on how much power is generated per day vs how much energy is required to bluetooth sync once a day.QuoteThat's great, but has absolutely nothing to do with the practicality of the product you are taking people's money for.QuoteAgain, lovely rhetoric in place of data.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 18, 2016, 01:42:43 am
content: @MatrixAnd you haven't answered my questions about autonomic nervous system effect on the caloric measurement, or who I'm actually speaking to here.It's clear you aren't going to provide any data either, so I'll just run with the data I have, I have more than enough to make an interesting video. Off to the whiteboard, see you on the other side.

author: Mr.B
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 18, 2016, 01:53:03 am
content: Bookmark

author: matrixindustries
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2016, 01:58:59 am
content: No point in sharing our data, which I've offered to you in private. Your calculations are spot on. We look forward to your video!

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2016, 02:25:57 am
content: Quote from: firewalker on November 17, 2016, 08:31:13 pmMost of the time that's not going to be an issue because if your arm is colder than the air the issue is going to be protection from the 330J pulses the paramedics will be slamming through your body.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 18, 2016, 02:39:34 am
content: Quote from: matrixindustries on November 18, 2016, 01:58:59 amWhy won't you share your data publicly?What can I do with private data apart from keep it private?QuoteThanks for confirming your TEG powered watch is nothing but a gimmick.

author: Carl_Smith
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2016, 03:31:15 am
content: Quote from: matrixindustries on November 18, 2016, 01:58:59 amUhhhmmmmm, WHAT? The point in sharing your data is that we are trying to give you an opportunity to prove that your device works as you claim and has some practical value. And yet you keep failing to take this opportunity.Quote from: matrixindustries on November 18, 2016, 01:58:59 amThis is a public message board, owned and operated by Dave, who is a public figure with a public YouTube channel. Private is not an option.A lot of people immediately think that crowdfunded projects with extraordinary claims are all scams to separate people from their money and run. When I first happened across this thread I was willing to give some benefit of the doubt and I figured there was a possibility it wasn't a scam, just a lot of wishful thinking that wasn't really all that practical. But after days of Matrix refusing to post data, requesting privacy with revealing data to Dave, and just sidestepping inconvenient questions, I'm starting to lean toward believing this product is just another attempt at cashing in a quick buck on a product the makers know has no real value.The only reason to request privacy is that you know there is something in that data that would negatively affect the perception of the value of your product and cost you sales.

author: Gallymimus
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2016, 05:03:40 am
content: Quote from: matrixindustries on November 16, 2016, 04:22:25 pmThe Arrow connection is great. We are Arrow design partners. I'd be happy to fact check this and quell the skeptics if you let us know who your local sales/FAE Arrow corporate contact is.

author: Gallymimus
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2016, 05:09:12 am
content: We actually work closely with Arrow and the startups they partner with, beyond the BOM check and and maneuverability check they also offer significant design support. So they very well could have had significant input on the design and practicality. BUT, as I said, share the local sales/FAE (there are many of them in that region) and we'll check it out.

author: Gallymimus
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2016, 05:13:10 am
content: One other thought. The technology is patented according to the article here:http://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20161114005195/en/Matrix-Launches-PowerWatch-World%E2%80%99s-Smartwatch-ChargingSo, no disclosure of confidential information necessary. Just need a patent number to check it out! The proof that it's all good and legit will be right there for everyone to see.

author: johndoe123
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2016, 07:29:12 am
content: it looks like the ces model had some heat sink in the wrist band but the last model doesnt have that anymore, just saying

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 18, 2016, 07:44:17 am
content: It's coming...

author: daqq
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2016, 08:34:23 am
content: QuoteThat's quite fishy really. There is no point in NOT sharing measurement data.I agree that proprietary information (schematics, mechanical design, firmware...) need not be shared, but a simple CSV file containing lots of measurements with body temperature, ambient temperature, outside conditions (humidity, pressure, what the person was doing etc.), total electric power generated by the device, total electric power consumed by the device (and the mode it is in and what is it doing) is not that much to ask. There is no reason to NOT share such data as once the device is available for purchase anyone can do the measurements anyway.

author: PA0PBZ
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2016, 08:52:58 am
content: the thing is, nobody is saying it doesn't work, but it's as practical as putting a solar roof on your Tesla...

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 18, 2016, 09:41:52 am
content: Quote from: johndoe123 on November 18, 2016, 07:29:12 amApparently it's on the sides or something now. Won't be hugely effective I'd bet.

author: _Andrew_
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2016, 10:51:03 am
content: If there on the level the impression I am getting from reading Matrix Industries replies is that for some time they have been developing conceptual devices that are powered by means of waist energy harvesting, in this instance the waist energy is in the form of radiated heat.The use of peltier type devices for generating electricity is not new, the challenge has always been what useful energy can be produced and how to efficiently make use of that energy.In fact there not the only company doing this, I had a discussion only few weeks ago with an individual who has had patients granted for applications employing harvesting waist energy in the form of heat.So how far for a reasonable cost can you push the energy harvesting capabilities of a peltier device, and just how efficient are the latest ultra-low energy integrated devices at using this energy.A comment that really stood out to me from Matrix is that the PowerWatch is intended to bring their development efforts out of the shadows. So in one sense the PowerWatch is a novelty but it is to prove that they can produce a compact telemetry device that can be powered by waist heat energy from the environment it is in.Also up until this date how have they been funding there activities, are there already venture capitalists with a grip on any future pie to be had which limits approaching further conventional investors.Crowd funding is another form of VC which by its nature is with risk and it is important to keep that in mind. What the crowd funding investor hopes to get is whatever the promise of reword will be for their level of investment. In this case a watch powered from energy that is radiated from your body in the form of heat.By sourcing finance from crowd funding means that Matrix are not having to give up a stake in their business or any rights they own as they would have to do going through conventional finance sources.Conventional finance sources may have considered there project to higher investment risk for the amount they would have to put in but with crowd funding that risk is divided, so an individual investor is not as exposed as a large single investor. So they may be more willing to take the risk.Say somebody looks at this and think to themselves that it appeals to them and that they have a belief in this so there prepared to take a gamble and pledge there $139, and anticipate the reward of a working PowerWatch.If all goes to plan with IGG Matrix makes valuable income, successfully launches a product, boosts there profile, prove to existing investors that can deliver a working product, open doors to move ahead with producing products for industrial telemetry / medical applications and any other application they can apply the technology to.For the IGG investor they get there shiny new PowerWatch.On the other hand if it all goes horribly wrong then the reverse of the above will happen and the IGG and any other investors they have will be out of pocket.Simple rule with gambling. Never bet with more than you can afford and are prepared to lose.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 18, 2016, 01:46:26 pm
content: Quote from: _Andrew_ on November 18, 2016, 10:51:03 amActually, it's really powered from the fully charged lithium ion battery when the customer gets it. The TEG just keeps it "topped up" if it's able to generate enough excess.The exact same watch could have just used a 2032 coin cell (or bigger) and have gotten several years of use, even with Bluetooth LE enabled 24/7.If you ripped the TEG out of it it would still last for a year or more.

author: matrixindustries
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2016, 02:48:25 pm
content: Your last comment is so stunningly inaccurate and exposes your ignorance. Please proceed!

author: Koen
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2016, 03:03:42 pm
content: Quote from: _Andrew_ on November 18, 2016, 10:51:03 amhttps://www.crunchbase.com/organization/silicium-energyhttps://gigaom.com/2011/11/04/a-new-name-in-thermoelectrics-silicium-energy/

author: romelec
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2016, 03:52:12 pm
content: You told that it could generate 500µW on a cold windy day, but what is cold and windy for you ? 15°C and 20km/h or -30°C and 80km/h ?What about summer, let's say 30°C and no wind ?

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2016, 04:31:49 pm
content: Quote from: daqq on November 18, 2016, 08:34:23 amWhy do you think that detailed environment related data is any less proprietary than design data? The figures you're asking for would take more time and effort to reproduce, if done diligently, than the rest of the design work put together. It's the data of what heat flow is available, for how long, under what circumstances etc. that is necessary to embark on a design of a system like this. It's rather like saying that you want Ford to publish the thermodynamics data on their new engine where General Motors can read it, while saying you quite understand that the blueprints need to stay confidential.@matrixindustries:Can i suggest you provide us with some headline numbers, the sort of things that I'd characterise as performance claims rather than design data. You've already offered two points as far as I can tell:The watch generates more power than it consumes when worn (under unspecified conditions)The best case (hard exercise, cold windy day) power production is 500uWIf you can add a few more realistic points on the power generation curve, and some power consumption figures, we might be on the way to the place where a "back of the cig packet" calculation can show whether this is going to work in most practical circumstances.

author: JimRemington
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2016, 09:51:10 pm
content: I have a better idea than TEG power: take one of those really nice mechanical watches that winds itself whenever your arm is moved, and replace the watch gears with a D.C. generator. There would likely be enough surplus energy to charge your cell phone battery at the same time!

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 18, 2016, 10:10:43 pm
content: Quote from: matrixindustries on November 18, 2016, 02:48:25 pmIgnorant?http://www.ti.com/lit/an/swra347a/swra347a.pdfA Bluetooth module 24/7/365 takes about 80uW average for a connection 1/sec.Your watch takes about 20uW, that's 100uW total.Do the math for a CR2032 or bigger battery.Your own guy admits it:

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2016, 11:28:03 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on November 18, 2016, 07:44:17 amTry sex,No need to show the process, just show the data.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 19, 2016, 12:42:13 am
content: Video rendering now, 30 min long.The lab experiment didn't work that great, basically got no extra power output over static. Must be that pesky autonomic nervous system shunting the blood out of my arms.

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 19, 2016, 01:00:12 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on November 18, 2016, 01:46:26 pmI think based on Koen's post above, as well as this quote by matrixindustriesQuoteThat it's easy to make some guesses about what is going on. They got funding 2.5 years back but it doesn't appear that they have brought in revenues yet. I am sure there is quite a lot of pressure to make the transition from egghead ideas on paper to practical technologies that are commercially successful.Smart watches are hot right now, and they use so little power that putting a TEG on one with a battery will obscure the miniscule contribution the TEG produces - so the consumer will never know their wrist watch *isn't* running off their body heat. And I seriously doubt they will show in the app how much daily power was used from the battery and was regenerated by the TEG. I watched their video and re-read their campaign page and nowhere do they indicate that the watch will require substantial temperature differentials to work. It's advertised as a green-type product that captures the waste energy of your body and runs forever on that. That's not true.Personally, I consider that a lie by omission and I think that's a really shitty way to treat your customers and a scummy way to advertise a product. Some people seem to think it's OK to mislead consumers by giving an impression that is very different than reality while taking their money, but a lie of omission is still a lie.Anyway, I don't think these people have any interest whatsoever in being in the watch business. I am guessing it's just something to show to investors to indicate validity of the concept... "we sold $300k in 10 days" or whatever. I think they do intend to make the watch and deliver, but they have to be really careful about it blowing up in their face... considering they've gotten millions in investment money, if they botch this or if customers get it and are unsatisfied, it could make it virtually impossible to get any future investment. I think what they really want to do is get more funding to pursue their other goals as stated in their quote above... but I am sure there is an imperative to produce something, and for the reasons listed, a watch where the average consumer will never know that it doesn't actually deliver on the claims made was probably seen as a good choice.And that's also the reason they don't want to give any numbers. If you had something that worked, you'd be singing it from the highest rooftops.This will be an interesting project to keep an eye on. I can see it going sideways, especially once people get these things and realize that it's essentially just a battery powered watch and the TEG isn't powering it at all.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 19, 2016, 01:40:55 am
content: The thing I don't get about Matrix is that they are PhD academic researchers. They got their PhD theses bydefendingtheir paper, defending their claims. Academics should be used to this.Yet they now seems offended that people dare question the practicality of their claims?Heck, we aren't even asking for error bars

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 19, 2016, 01:52:19 am
content: Quote from: Corporate666 on November 19, 2016, 01:00:12 amIt works, it's just as you say "the battery will obscure the miniscule contribution the TEG produces". And in that respect it's rather clever. People will look at that charging power meter and be amazed they are generating power for their watch (most/some of the time).The bottom line is TEG's are absolutely pointless in watches. If, like they have done, design a super low power watch (and omit features that take more power), then the TEG is useless because a single coin cell battery could give you YEARS of use anyway, and they even admit this in one of the articles saying it will be two years life on the fully charged battery.On the other hand if you design a fully featured smart watch with all the bells and whistles that chews more power, the TEG won't provide anywhere near enough power to compensate for what's lost, and it will need some other charging solution.So the TEG is pointless either way.

author: JimRemington
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2016, 02:07:57 am
content: QuoteOthers have already pointed out that Matrix will never admit this impracticality to their investors, so they aren't about to admit it to themselves or us.

author: Gallymimus
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2016, 04:14:58 pm
content: Well my assessment is that since:1). They didn't provide any Arrow contacts for FAE or Sales in their area for vetting (not proprietary and no risk) they must actually be full of crap.2). Didn't share their issued patent number (I mentioned previously a request for the patent so we could "check it out") they must be full of crap.Darn, I was really in their camp trying to give them a path to demonstrate credibility without risk.

author: Gallymimus
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2016, 04:21:24 pm
content: Quote from: matrixindustries on November 18, 2016, 12:49:56 amDirecting this technology toward industrial sensors is a really good idea (people already doing this). The nice thing here is the temp differentials are sometimes much higher. i.e. sensors mounting on engines, generators, presses, CNCs etc. In buildings as well it's easier to get strong temp differentials on boilers, HVAC systems etc.Starting with people is running before walking (dynamic, low and unpredictable temp differentials, etc, etc) so kudos for taking on the challenge

author: Gallymimus
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2016, 04:34:51 pm
content: Quote from: _Andrew_ on November 18, 2016, 10:51:03 amYou are seriously misrepresenting the difference and fundamentals of venture capital, investment and crowd funding:1). Crowd funding is in NO way an investment, no ownership or promise of future returns exists in Crowd Funding.2). Regarding product presale crowdfunding campaigns: There is absolutely a claim and contract represented from the company "for a pledge you will get product X" This is a presale and customers have a legal claim for action to recoup their payment if product is not delivered, just like any other purchase protected by law, the FTC and Attorney General (in the USA). Wording of the pledge terms would have to be different if it is meant to be a "maybe or we might deliver on our promise", such as "pledge $100 and IF we finish our project we will send you something" vs "if you pledge $100 you will get X" Note that in the campaign specifically there is no disclaimer, indication of risk, simply assertion, schedule, and product presale.Unfortunately when crowdfunding presales fail, there is often little recourse (company is rarely capitalize sufficiently to support a legal judgement). Also, unless a class action is filed, it's not practical for 10,000 individuals who are out $100 to individually file claims against companies. This is another reason why crowdfunding purchases are risk. Not because failure to deliver is allowed or legal, but purely because the failure to deliver and legal recourse in impractical. This leads to a seedy underbelly (particularly on indiegogo) for nasty scam products where companies can sit on the edge of pseudoscience and reality making claims for products that Apple and Samsung seem to have magically missed out on.Note this post is NOT a dig or criticism of Matrix at all!

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2016, 05:24:37 pm
content: And again, another Batteroo. PhDs with years of experience, a lot of promises, a hyped certification, missing data, numbers not adding up and so on. But I think they'll ship their product - with the little nuisance of a missing charging connector, which you're going to need obviously. Better get a watch with a replaceable coin cell.

author: edavid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2016, 05:48:16 pm
content: Quote from: madires on November 19, 2016, 05:24:37 pm50% Batteroo, 25% uBeam, 25% EnergousQuoteI'm not sure, because it's difficult and expensive to manufacture a custom watch that looks like their rendered images. Their $100K goal would not have covered the tooling, so were they planning to dip into their VC money? Or make the watches by hand and lose money on each one? I can't help thinking reality will set in sometime after the campaign ends.

author: Koen
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2016, 06:10:41 pm
content: Could you ask Sharp to produce a custom round memory LCD for < 100k ?

author: Magnets
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2016, 10:48:58 pm
content: After watching the eevblog video it's clear that the conceptcouldwork - i.e. keep the battery topped up, even if does seem completely over-engineered.Not wanting to share the numbers really does make me sceptical.I think it epitomises crowdfunding; it's crap that people don't need but really want.

author: timb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2016, 11:16:43 pm
content: Quote from: Gallymimus on November 19, 2016, 04:21:24 pmExactly. A couple of years ago I was contracted to put together a prototype for an inexpensive, wireless, energy harvesting sensor for light industrial use, as part of a feasibility study. (As an aside, that was a nice project. I love when someone gives you absolute and complete creative control of a project they contract out, very rare those.)I eventually settled on a TEG, as one of the uses was air quality monitoring for HVAC ducts. If placed at the outlet of a duct, a suitable TEG could generate enough power (based on the temperature differential) to take sensor readings and transmit them once every 10 minutes.Unfortunately, one of the limiting factors was the price of the required TEG modules... Apparently, MATRIX's claim to fame is they've developed some sort of process to build TEGs out of Si, instead of the current more costly materials. I do hope they succeed on that front, as there are a lot of places where low cost TEGs could be useful!

author: _Andrew_
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 20, 2016, 06:48:51 am
content: I still wonder if lambasting Matrix’s PowerWatch is a beneficial or detrimentalI would like to know more about the development of the uses of peltier powered devices in applications of industrial monitoring.Within the applications industrial monitoring I work with the energy consumption of monitoring devices is inconsequential. I could see the advantage of having a number of self-powered (energy harvesting from waist heat) devices communicating back via RF to a central node. Instead of running for example RS485 and power all over the place.So what if the PowerWatch appeals as a gimmick to those that are in to gimmicky watches and are happy to part with money for one if it helps with funding developing a technology.You never know those that purchased one and tucked it away in the back of a draw in its original packaging in 40 years’ time they may be laughing all the way to the bank if it becomes one of those collectible novelty watches.I’m being a little devil’sadvocate.The world is currently heading towards an energy crises and it is a lot more serious than people realize.The present approach is currently treating everything in isolation.SolarWave / tidalWindPassive housesEnergy conservationEct......It is easy to dismiss something because its contribution seems so insignificant but if considered as an overall combined approach can add up to something very big.Now I said that the energy consumption of monitoring devices is inconsequential in the applications that I use them in. In isolation this most lightly true with the present deployment.Saying that the monitoring requirements are getting more complex and sophisticated and long-term powering devices for purposes of monitoring can become an issue.But (I know terrible bad to start with a but) waist as heat is something I often have in an excessive abundance at a significant differential between the surrounding ambient temperature and the radiated waist heat.So think about it consider most consumers including industrial monitoring devices that can be considered as a set and forget having little or no maintenance requirement, that just happen to obtain their power requirements from waist energy in the local environment, in isolation insignificant but multiply that a few million times.So is people paying for a trinket watch to help move technology on is that such a bad thing?This is where I hope Matrix (POKE) come back with a sensible response and maybe discuss a little bit about the industrial applications and the development work they have done with peltier devices.Now bashing on batteriser I reckon is fair game. Main stream manufactures have pretty much cottoned on to using boost converters in there battery operated devices enabling them to be smaller, lighter and have less volume metric weight for shipping. Unless it happens to be a monkey’s arse that you are poking things up and magically being able to boost a life by 800%. Or some form of nonsense along those lines.

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 20, 2016, 03:09:21 pm
content: I don't think that the IGG campaign would fund any research, since the production of the watch will take all money. And if there's a break-through or some real progress in TEGs by the research of the project team, they wouldn't have much problem in finding investors or companies funding further research or product development. Sounds more like a marketing stunt.

author: aandrew
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 20, 2016, 04:24:05 pm
content: Quote from: _Andrew_ on November 18, 2016, 10:51:03 amFinally, a way to shed that spare tire without exercise!(sorry for the homonym poke, it's in good humour)

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 20, 2016, 05:38:19 pm
content: Quote from: aandrew on November 20, 2016, 04:24:05 pmHomophone, not homonym.Panthera Tigrisand Tiger are homonyms, theynamethe same thing; homophonessoundthe same but name different things.

author: edy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2017, 03:42:31 am
content: Someone was looking for patents. I found a few linked to search terms for "thermoelectric" and "akram" who is Akram Boukai, PhD, CEO and Co-founder. They are found here:https://www.google.com/patents/US9263662https://www.google.com/patents/WO2009014985A3?cl=enhttps://www.google.com/patents/US9209375https://www.google.com/patents/US20140373888https://www.google.com/patents/US20150228883https://www.google.com/patents/US20160197259Most of it is related to a company known as Silicium Energy, Inc.,http://www.siliciumenergy.com/, which changed over to Matrix Industries.There is a lot of interesting stuff there. A google search for "Silicium Energy" shows the history of the company over the past at least 6 years. Some information is also found here:http://www.bloomberg.com/research/stocks/private/snapshot.asp?privcapId=142457561The snapshot states:QuoteLots of interesting stuff:http://www.xconomy.com/san-francisco/2016/05/12/silicium-energy-receives-3575290-new-round/QuoteThis company is definitely on the "up and up". Looks like they are gaining traction in obtaining funding for better and greater things. I'm not sure how the watch ties in to all of this, but it appears to be just the beginning of a long string of thermally-powered low-energy devices they are going to be developing and marketing. As far as whether there is any practical advantage to using a TEG module or simply using a larger battery (or having the ability to charge), Dave's preliminary calculations show the TEG aspect has a minor benefit. Nevertheless, it sounds "cool" and when people ask you about your new fancy watch you can say it's powered off your wasted body heat.Assuming most people cannot keep this device charged up enough to make it go on indefinitely, when the battery does finally drain completely, how easy is it to replace the battery or charge it up again? I think people would probably not care to change the battery every few years if it was easy to do so. The watch is a conversation starter, and that may be reason enough for many people to buy one and talk to people about it. But I agree that in principle, the marketing campaign behind the watch most certainly emphasizes the TEG aspect. If it is really mostly running off the internal battery and there is a net loss of charge daily that is just impractical to compensate for, and your watch dies in 2-3 years, then perhaps adding a thicker battery in the space where the TEG sits will more than make up for it (and maybe give you 5 years out of it). If the internal battery would last 2-3 years and the TEG helps you get 4-5 years out of it, that would be a different story.Anyways, I like the watch, never mind the TEG aspect and whether it is a gimmick or not. However, I do believe having TEG definitely helped them get more media coverage and sell more watches. If they told backers that the TEG extends the battery life by 20% or something, I'm not as sure they would have built up that much excitement. Maybe, maybe not? I might still buy the watch even knowing the TEG adds marginally to the battery life, because I like the way it looks and I like the "coolness" factor of having it show me how much energy my wasted body heat is producing. But at least I was given the opportunity to make that decision after given an honest assessment. Certainly a better approach to be honest about it than to try to over-sell the TEG and have a bunch of puzzled backers in 2-3 years wondering why they need to change their battery when the claim at the time they bought it was that it would never run out.

author: _VWV_
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: March 15, 2017, 02:34:39 am
content: Hi everyone,I perhaps it's just terminology, but why is a TEG-powered smartwatch a gimmick?I gathered the discussion has arrived at a consensus that the supposed TEG would generate an excess over the net energy, required to run the watch.I see some potential benefits that may justify a TEG in a smartwatch:- If it's able to keep the lithium cell at the perfect voltage, the cell should last... emm forever, so the smartwatch has the potential to work for tens of years (provided that other components don't fail).- No charging port = cheaper to build a water resistant watch, that will stay that way for it's lifetime.- No need to charge (so you can't forget to charge - happens to me all the time) / no need to replace a CRXXXX cell every XX months (no risk of braking water resistance in the process)If they are able to pull of the X version with notifications, it would be a unique smartwatch on the market, combining basic (smart) functionality, 200M water resistance, potentially long lifespan (in tens of years), all at a reasonable price (a bit more expensive than pebble).I would be happy to hear examples that tick all of those boxes.The closest analog I know of is Vector Luna - similar hardware, 30 day battery life, a lot more expensive. It does have "apps" but they are of very limited use.On the other hand, it is not ideal that the team did not release ANY data at all, so a lot of their claims can't be verified at the moment. Take the accuracy of calorie count - if they use a complex model to describe the relationship between TEG generation and activity measured by movement sensor, such a setup has the potential to be more accurate than calculations solely based on activity alone.Will it be that way, who knows.Yet after having a far from open fund raising campaign, they managed to harvest a lot more cash, than originally planned (which by itself in not a proof of future success). Perhaps, not all backers understand that some features may not be as described, perhaps the watch will have teathing problems, perhaps they will save on production costs in order to have lots of profit, so that the watch would not even last a few years on average.But calling the fundraising campaign an outright scam, seems horribly wrong to me. Lack of public raw data and a few PhDs on the team is just not enough of evidence to support such a claim.Disclaimer:I did preorder the X version (red flag number 1) of the watch and I have a PhD (red flag number 2, since there was some sarcasm on the PhD topic in the thread)._VWV_

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 15, 2017, 02:58:01 am
content: Quote from: _VWV_ on March 15, 2017, 02:34:39 amYou missed the point I was making in that the functions of this TEG smart watch are possible without the TEG, and would get almost theshelf life of the batteryanyway with the TEG.Ergo, it's pointless.

author: edavid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2017, 04:24:37 am
content: Quote from: _VWV_ on March 15, 2017, 02:34:39 amAbsolutely not. That seems highly questionable. So your conclusions follow from a faulty premise.

author: _VWV_
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: March 15, 2017, 09:38:04 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on March 15, 2017, 02:58:01 amI understand the point you are trying to make, I just don't quite agree with it. I think, a battery that is not under deep charge - deep discharge stress has a significantly longer shelf life, compared to the time estimates for a CRXXXX powered watch you've mentioned above. That is my point. The watch has the potential to keep going for years and years without human intervention. A coin cell you would have to replace every XX months, which may not be a straightforward operation. Some watches require special tools to open and close them properly. Small workshops charge people to replace CR batteries, and sometime they do a very bad job - your watch may lose water tightness and the batteries they put in last 2x less. If I don't have to do that for, say 10 years, that is a pleasant feature, not a gimmick.There is no proof the hardware of the watch will be of sufficient quality to work without problems for a long time, but that is at least a possibility brought in solely by on-board energy harvesting from a TEG.I am not arguing that the same watch could have been powered off a battery, that you can recharge now and then. Yet still there are small but tangible benefit of having a TEG on-board, hence it's not a gimmick. You can argue that it's over engineered, that the problem that is being potentially solved is not worth it, but this argument would breach into subjective territory in my mind.Quote from: edavid on March 15, 2017, 04:24:37 amOk, so I misunderstood the thread. I came here to add my 2c because I saw the video, which sort of suggests that a decently engineered TEG would be able to provide the small amount of power, required to run the watch under all but most extreme conditions. So my conclusions follow from the faulty video premise, that I don't see as faulty. It's a good video in my mind, bit too emotional (for my taste), but with data and calculations to talk about.Sure it is that if a person lives in a 37 degree incubator, the watch is not going to work. I don't, so from the video I conclude that a TEG-powered watch will at the very very least brake even in my environment. And if it does, my conclusions stand._VWV_EDIT: questionable != faultyEDIT2: I assume no one argues that extra channel of info on calorie count in addition to accelerometer could potentially increase the accuracy of measurements - how is this a gimmick?

author: edavid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2017, 04:50:13 pm
content: Quote from: _VWV_ on March 15, 2017, 09:38:04 amWhat data? They have refused to provide data.QuoteOr maybe if they just wear long sleeves?QuoteNo, people have been too busy arguing the energy harvesting side to even consider that. To me, the calorie count stuff seems like pure BS, proof that the thing is a scam. How can you make a valid biological measurement out of a temperature reading? If that were really possible, they would make that into the product. (But first they would publish papers about it.)P.S. Do you have any connection with Matrix Industries?

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2017, 05:32:31 pm
content: Quote from: edavid on March 15, 2017, 04:50:13 pmIt's not a scam (which implies deliberate dishonesty), it's just overly optimistic and a bit gimmicky (To be fair, watches is an area where gimmicks are the norm, known in the watch trade as 'complications').Quote from: edavid on March 15, 2017, 04:50:13 pmEh? OK, the temperature readings you showed your mum when you were trying to bunk off school might have not been 'valid biological measurements' but body (core) temperature is a commonplace and very useful 'valid biological measurement' based on a temperature reading. Sweeping statements like yours above don't advance the argument. If you've got information that suggests that a heat loss measurement from the wrist would be of little use in predicting caloric consumption then provide reasoned arguments for that by all means, but please don't just throw out unthinking rubbish for the sake of gainsaying someone.Quote from: edavid on March 15, 2017, 04:50:13 pmTaking that tone is hardly helpful. If I was standing next to you in the pub that would have earned an "Oi! Hold on mate, that's going too far!".P.S. Do you have any conflicting interests that could make us suspect that your arguments are merely thinly disguised self interest?See what I mean?

author: edavid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2017, 09:39:50 pm
content: Quote from: Cerebus on March 15, 2017, 05:32:31 pmHow can they measure whole body heat loss based on an uncontrolled, single point temperature measurement?And if they could, why isn't that the big news? It would be much more important than any smartwatch improvement they could possibly make.Throw out all those old fashioned calorimeters, just strap on a MATRIX PowerWatch instead!QuoteThe difference is that his/her/its only 2 posts are defending this highly questionable campaign. That would make anyone wonder.

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2017, 09:52:15 pm
content: Quote from: edavid on March 15, 2017, 09:39:50 pmNo it wouldn't. He just asked some questions and made some observations. If what he's said seems to you like reasonable grounds to suspect some malign motive then you have a very strange view of the world.

author: _VWV_
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: March 16, 2017, 10:12:19 am
content: Quote from: edavid on March 15, 2017, 04:50:13 pmI was referring to the video by the admin of this wonderful forum, I was referring to his measurements and calculations. The video demos, that the watch perhaps generates way more power than it consumes. Sure it is that the video does not feature the actual watch and sure it is the setup was tested under favourable conditions and sure it is that the calculations are best case scenario for the watch. But I nevertheless used this well done analysis to draw my conclusions precisely because there is not enough data available from the campaign managers, which was about the first thing I said in my first post.QuoteWearing long sleeves should still generate some sort of gradient. Of course, if one wears a fur coat in a 37 degree room, then no chance, however I have different preferences in clothing. We don't know the power output of the TEG under a sleeve. They did not release data, so there you either trust the developers that they thought about it, or you don't and you then raise suspicions. And in case it's not self-evident raising suspicions != accusing public people of a scam.QuoteWell, I came here to discuss if the watch is a gimmick - which was the message of the video. Mind you, the admin suggests in his video, that the watch is a gimmick, not a scam, which sort of suggests that your opinion is not the only one out there.Basically, you are telling me that if some stuff seems BS to you, that is a proof. May I inquire if you are an expert in the field of calorie measurement? Something tells me you are not an expert, though, because no expert would put out something that SEEMS as a proof for whatever. A valid biological measurement from temps? Well, that is how any system (including, but not limited to a living one) is measured.http://articles.latimes.com/2010/jan/04/health/la-he-calorie-counters4-2010jan04Of course, the TEG would not cover the entire surface of skin, so it would only get a glimpse of what's happening. Could it be better than nothing? A good balance between practicality (TEG + accelerometer + a complex model to draw conclusions on the data they provide) and precision (a person locked in a huge calorimeter of room size, or wearing a gas analyser to monitor O2 consumption)?I hope we all agree that calorie measurement based solely on accelerometer is imprecise, so it would be great to squeeze out a bit more precision. Having extra information on the amount of energy that a TEG generates can be helpful in this regard. Of course there are complications. The response to exercise is not immediate and is not linear, clothing and ambient temperature should be a factor as well. I am not saying, it would be easy for the team to get that extra precision out, in fact, I don't think they have the right expertise for that. However, extra way to measure whatever is not a gimmick, assuming that without the extra way the measurement is not precise enough. It is that way by definition - if extra ways to measure are required, than a measuring device (TEG in this case) is not a gimmick. Period.QuoteNo, apart from what I indicated already. Do you think, if I bothered to write a disclaimer, I would have omitted that?On a side note, do you understand that publicly calling an active public fundraising campaign a scam with no evidence whatsoever could be a criminal offence in some countries?_VWV_

author: donotdespisethesnake
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2017, 12:39:12 pm
content: Best not to feed the troll, methinks

author: nidlaX
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2017, 12:48:55 am
content: A few points to bring up now that this watch is closer to shipping:1. They appear to have gotten a mini endorsement from AD:Anyone surprised that AD's marketing department is fully on-board with the "IoT" hypetrain?2. A first look from Engadget is available:https://www.engadget.com/2017/11/09/matrix-powerwatch-hands-on-body-heat-power/So it seems like the electronics design is valid, even if the application is not. At this point, I think it stands as a nice proof of concept for Matrix's TEG design expertise, although it was never pitched to the backers as such...

author: _VWV_
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: December 11, 2017, 12:09:21 am
content: Quote from: nidlaX on November 10, 2017, 12:48:55 amI agree it's a proof of marketability of the TEG technology for Matrix, and no, it was never sold like this to the backers. In fact Matrix has raised more than 17x10^6$ from investorslink- that's like an order of magnitude more than what they raised from backers. If the powerwatch campaign works out without a major scandal, they will perhaps get even more from investors.The backers were promised a watch with certain features - that's what they should get. Whether the success of the campaign will allow Matrix to raise more capital and expand into other markets should not really bother backers at all.The worst that can happen to backers, like myself, is that once the watch is out and investors are happy, Matrix may stop supporting the watch. Oh, well, we were not promised a never ending support of the product.I hope that Matrix will release SDK as promised, and I hope that the watch will be very well built so that it could last.. well.. forever. It does not need a battery to run any way And forgot to say, now it's absolutely clear the whole campaign is a total scam. 1.6 m$ from backers + 17 m$ from investors raised.. sorry, stolen of course. _VWV_

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 06, 2019, 10:57:35 pm
content: It's back!https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/smartwatch-powered-by-you-matrix-powerwatch-2#/With GPS this time!

author: edy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 07, 2019, 01:50:59 am
content: Now that we've resurrected this old thread... I'm curious to see what happened to the original Matrix Powerwatch and what reviews have come in and what testing has been done. Does anyone know? The Powerwatch is on sale for $139 on their website (PowerWatch Black OPs looks different for $169 but I assume the same), and then there is PowerWatch X for $199 which features notifications. Here is their website:https://www.powerwatch.com/collections/powerwatchDoes anyone recall the original IndieGoGo campaign price? Was it a great deal cheaper? Was it worth the risk to save a few bucks (if any)? Has anyone tried the Android or iOS software and how good are the notifications? Is it worth getting the PowerWatch X versus a regular watch/Black OPs?I found this review, it gave it 2/5 stars only.... does not instil confidence:https://www.techradar.com/reviews/matrix-powerwatch-review

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 07, 2019, 10:32:25 am
content: ... and solar cell. From their indiegogo:QuoteNo blockchain feature?

author: Cyberdragon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 08, 2019, 06:07:49 am
content: Solar panel would be most of the power. Guess they realized the real physics, but they still had to pump out some sort of rubbish in an attempt to satisfy backers.

author: ttyridal
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: February 25, 2019, 05:21:11 pm
content: Quote from: edy on January 07, 2019, 01:50:59 amI paid 159 usd for the black-ops in the original campaign. Worth it? nope. It's a regular watch with stopwatch and some "energy metering" features. app (android) was terrible last time I checked and no notifications (apparently the 'X' has that)