Resistors SMD 0...000 - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / beginners

author: tigr
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2018, 07:12:23 pm
content: Hi,allNow, instead of wire jumpers, put resistors SMD with a marking of 0-000.Who has information on these resistors?

author: Vic20
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2018, 08:06:15 pm
content: Don't understand the question.0 Ohm resistors don't replace jumper wires. They usually replace solder bridges.In my experience they are more used as SMD components.In some configuration options they can also replace normal resistors. In this case, trough hole ones can come handy.Jumper wires can connect nodes far apart, zero resistors are more limited.You can buy them just like normal resistors, like:http://es.farnell.com/c/componentes-pasivos/resistencias-valor-fijo/resistencias-de-tipo-chip-smd?resistencia=0ohm

author: tigr
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2018, 08:24:45 pm
content: Quote from: Vic20 on February 19, 2018, 08:06:15 pmIs there any information about the resistance of these resistors?

author: Nusa
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2018, 08:29:23 pm
content: Nominally zero ohms. The same resistance as a jumper wire.

author: mairo
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 19, 2018, 08:36:42 pm
content: Also different sizes will have different power ratings, so be careful there as well if you use it to transfer power across. Datasheets will show you this info.

author: Nusa
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2018, 08:40:03 pm
content: As for why, I'd guess it's because automated assembly lines can handle those without any modification.If you're doing hand-assembled through-hole, just use wire instead.

author: tigr
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2018, 08:44:01 pm
content: Quote from: Nusa on February 19, 2018, 08:29:23 pmIn the book it is written.,,The actual resistance values of such resistors are in the range of 0.005-0.01Ohm."

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2018, 08:44:21 pm
content: Zero-ohm resistor-shaped objects are useful when using one circuit board layout for different but similar circuits, where the exact function can be chosen at assembly.When they first came out, it was common to see them quoted as +/- 5% tolerance, just to amuse people.

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2018, 08:59:21 pm
content: RTFDS.A typical 0805 might be rated 2A and max 50mohm. Depends.If you're buying them from a place that doesn't publish such data (or reliably meet their data!), that's your problem.Tim

author: tigr
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2018, 09:08:17 pm
content: It seems to me that resistance must be defined with a certain tolerance, as with conventional resistors.For example.One zero-0.01 Ohm.

author: Nusa
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2018, 09:20:18 pm
content: Plain wire is also a resistor, usually expressed as resistance per specific length. You do the math for shorter lengths.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 19, 2018, 09:25:55 pm
content: Quote from: tigr on February 19, 2018, 09:08:17 pmThey are not intended to be any accurate, and resistance of narrow tracks attached to such resistor likely will be higher than that. They are not shunt resistors for accurate current measurement.

author: The Soulman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2018, 09:48:08 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on February 19, 2018, 09:25:55 pmYes they intended to be perfect 0 Ohm but in reality it is next to impossible to make such a device so the men and woman at the factory do their best to achieve that but admit they can't and honestly state in the datasheet what they on average achieve (the "typical" value) and what they think is the highest value of what they could sell to you (the "maximum" value).

author: tigr
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2018, 09:51:54 pm
content: Quote from: Nusa on February 19, 2018, 09:20:18 pmYes, but it has a resistance of 0.000 Ohm.And the SMD resistors do not have such low resistance.

author: tigr
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2018, 10:15:41 pm
content: Quote from: The Soulman on February 19, 2018, 09:48:08 pmI completely agree.The resistance of the jumper also affects how the circuit works. Or not?I think there is a difference between 0.05 and 0.005 Ohm.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 19, 2018, 10:35:15 pm
content: Quote from: tigr on February 19, 2018, 09:51:54 pmIt's not, unless you talk about very low length and high cross section.

author: Nusa
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2018, 11:05:10 pm
content: Quote from: tigr on February 19, 2018, 09:51:54 pmThis is a special case where % tolerances of an ideal resistor value doesn't make sense (any % of 0 is still 0). ALL of these 0-ohm resistors are > 0 but < max given. Don't confuse max value with typical value.As an example, here's a version of a zero-ohm jumper that isliterally just a piece of wire:https://www.mouser.com/ds/2/219/JL-242520.pdfIt's specified to have a maximum resistance of 0.010 Ohms, clearly greater than 0.0005 ohms.Anyone who actually needs to worry about values this small probably also has to calculate the resistance of their traces.

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 20, 2018, 12:35:17 am
content: Quote from: tigr on February 19, 2018, 09:51:54 pmOn small resistance that you can not measure, doesn't mean they are perfect zero, there is no such thing, especially at room temperature.Quote from: tigr on February 19, 2018, 10:15:41 pmYes, 0.05 is clearly different from 0.005 , but show us where you found the circuit/board/pcb that will behave so differently when using a tiny SMD resistor of 0.05 vs 0.005 Ohm.

author: tigr
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 20, 2018, 12:54:00 am
content: Quote from: Nusa on February 19, 2018, 11:05:10 pmHaving carried out a whole series of measurements of different sized resistors with one zero, came to the conclusion that such resistors have a resistance of 0.01Ohm.So I measured a resistor with one zero.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 20, 2018, 12:58:31 am
content: Quote from: tigr on February 20, 2018, 12:54:00 amWrong conclusion.Get an 8.5 digit DMM and do 4 wire measurements if you wantcorrectresults ! .......but only to the resolution and accuracy ofthatDMM.

author: Buriedcode
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 20, 2018, 12:59:23 am
content: Quote from: tigr on February 19, 2018, 09:51:54 pmAside from superconducting materials at very low temperatures - everything has resistance. 0-ohm SMD resistors are simply guaranteed to be lower than a certain threshold with little regard to accuracy.Just because something has "000" on it doesn't necessarily mean "0.00" and even if it did it gives no indication of accuracy. Most likely they are manufactured the same way other resistors are, and those have a 3-digit code. So rather than change the manufacturing to only print one digit "0" they print three.Also, don't confuse accuracy, with precision, or tolerance. There are different concepts. Often values are printed with far more decimal points than is possible to measure accurately, usually because figures are generated with a certain number of digits, say 3 decimal places, even when the measurement accuracy is terrible. eg 1.446 +/- 0.5 should be to one decimal place -> 1.5 +/- 0.5.This misunderstanding may seem insignificant but I have known designers to assume builders work to sub milliliter accuracy because their software uses figures to several decimal places.I'm intrigued - do you think that all 10k resistors have exactly 10.000k ohm? And how accurately you can measure things is down to how accurate your equipment is - and again we bumped into the difference between accuracy, precision and tolerance.https://meettechniek.info/measurement/accuracy.html

author: TMM
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 20, 2018, 12:59:56 am
content: Yes, you need a 4 wire measurement to accurately measure that low since the resistance of the leads/probes will become substantial.

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 20, 2018, 01:21:17 am
content: Quote from: tigr on February 20, 2018, 12:54:00 amYour conclusion is questionable as there is no accuracy using such meter and method.It could be 0.03 ... or 0.02 .. or 0.009999 ... or even 0.015 ... but again, it doesn't matter for that circuit, try get another identical one, solder on top of it to make parallel resistors, the circuit will still works, or even desolder it, put two or three in series, still it will work fine.

author: tigr
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 20, 2018, 01:26:43 am
content: Quote from: TMM on February 20, 2018, 12:59:56 amOK.

author: Nerull
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 20, 2018, 03:03:09 am
content: Quote from: tigr on February 19, 2018, 08:44:01 pmUnless you're working with superconductors, everything has resistance.They are *approximately* zero ohms, just like you assume wires in your circuit to be.You're aware that wires have resistance, yes?

author: Nusa
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 20, 2018, 03:12:38 am
content: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Real_versus_nominal_value

author: Jwillis
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 20, 2018, 06:11:34 am
content: Chip resistors (RSMD) if printed with a code will have an R used as a decimal. So a 50mOhm will be coded 0R05m or a 5mOhm will be coded 0R005.If its coded 0 or 0000 its considered a jumper.If it measures less than 1milliohm it is considered to be zero and with be marked as such.If no markings are on the chip it will be on the reel and datasheet.All this can be found under the Global part number or the 12NC code rules.

author: tigr
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 20, 2018, 07:35:38 pm
content: I measured the green resistor with three zeros.Clearly 0,005 Ohm. It means they have the resistance set by the manufacturer, depending on the marking.Thank you all for the helpful information.

author: Jwillis
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 21, 2018, 03:25:14 am
content: RSMD can be green, red ,blue,brown or black.The color doesn't matter. If its marked as 0...000 its considered as a jumper or 0 ohm.

author: tigr
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 21, 2018, 08:16:38 am
content: Did not anyone measure such resistors?

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 21, 2018, 08:31:44 am
content: Quote from: tigr on February 21, 2018, 08:16:38 amDon't need to !If my 0, 000 or whatever 0805's are needed for other than 'signal path' use and I'm concerned about current I'll use a wire jumper instead !

author: tigr
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 21, 2018, 09:17:10 pm
content: It seems that they still differ in resistance. It seems to me, depending on the type of resistor, they have a fixed resistance. And this has its own logic. Regarding very low resistances, there is a completely different technology.

author: tigr
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2018, 10:54:59 pm
content: We can draw definite conclusions. For some exceptions, all the resistors have basically a resistance of 0.01Om. To eliminate the error, the measurements were carried out by two tweezers with a resolution of 0.001 Ohm.All measurements were done without removing the resistors.Once again, thank you all.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 23, 2018, 01:50:13 am
content: Quote from: tigr on February 22, 2018, 10:54:59 pmFirst of all, you need 4 wire measurement to remotely precisely measure such resistance. Secondly, meter on the picture is something I would not trust, especially for such demanding measurments.

author: tigr
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2018, 08:52:24 am
content: Both tweezers have a 4-wire measurement circuit. They are designed for in-circuit measurement of R and ESR. They have a low measuring voltage.

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2018, 08:57:52 am
content: Quote from: wraper on February 23, 2018, 01:50:13 amOp is well known troll, just read his previous threads/posts, as he doesn't even have any idea what a 4 wires measurement does, and keep posting and mumbling on how accurate and "conclusive" of his sub 10 mili Ohm measurements with his "elite" measurement meters (plural).

author: chrisl
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2018, 09:10:11 am
content: Here is the datasheet for 0 ohm jumpers from KOA.Regardless of the marking (no marking, 0 or 000) of the jumpers the resistance is 50 m ohm max for all the jumpers.

author: tigr
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2018, 09:12:53 am
content: I ignore people who often use the word troll.

author: tigr
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2018, 10:43:01 am
content: BravoVAnd now, if you're a man, you can apologize for your words.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 23, 2018, 10:58:17 am
content: Quote from: tigr on February 23, 2018, 08:52:24 amThey are not real 4 wire. Yes there can be 4 wires till the contacts which helps to mitigate parasitics till the contacts but then there are only 2 contacts connecting to the part. Therefore this meter cannot subtract connection resistance from actual component resistance.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 23, 2018, 11:01:45 am
content: Quote from: tigr on February 23, 2018, 10:43:01 amOh, reading of 1 last digit of resolution. Shuld be accurate.

author: tigr
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2018, 01:56:56 pm
content: No problems.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 23, 2018, 02:44:44 pm
content: Quote from: tigr on February 22, 2018, 10:54:59 pmThere is someone I have worked with that does this exact thing.They make a statement - anabsolutestatement, fail to back it up with demonstrable facts and/or accepted processes, fill in the empty space with confidently presented babble and finish by saying "Case closed!". All the while expecting their audience to accept what is said without question.They don't convince me - and neither do you.Youmay be able to "draw definite conclusions" - but I'm not seeing it.The content of your claims seem "off" to me and the style of your argument makes me wonder if you really understand the considerations that need to be taken for such low resistance measurements. I also don't see any concrete evidence of 4 wire measurement either.The Atlas ESR60 certainly isn't a 4 wire device, nor is the component tester. So what about the tweezer meter ... is that 4 wire?Also, you claim a resolution of 0.001 ohm - but what is its accuracy?

author: tigr
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2018, 02:56:31 pm
content: Quote from: Brumby on February 23, 2018, 02:44:44 pmInteresting.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 23, 2018, 02:57:59 pm
content: Quote from: tigr on February 23, 2018, 01:56:56 pmThere is one serious problem. Even not considering varying connection resistance, HB-14 has +/- 20 digit accuracy in this range.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 23, 2018, 03:01:46 pm
content: Quote from: tigr on February 23, 2018, 02:56:31 pmNot interesting, because there is no 4 wire connection to the device under test. All it compensates is varying inductance and capacitance of the wires when you move them.

author: tigr
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2018, 03:14:50 pm
content: I'll have to call an arbitrator.LCR Pro1.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 23, 2018, 03:21:14 pm
content: Quote from: tigr on February 23, 2018, 02:56:31 pmMy apologies. But I had to go hunting to find ANY reference to that unit being 4 wire. Even Peak don't mention it in their product spiel.It seems it is 4 wire measurement capable according to this:https://nz.rs-online.com/web/p/lcr-meters/6660908/

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 23, 2018, 03:34:56 pm
content: Quote from: tigr on February 23, 2018, 03:14:50 pmLOL, you can call as many non suitable meters as you want. To claim accurate measurment you need to use a proper multimeter or LCR meter with 4 wire measurment, and which is accurate enough in such low resistance range. And still that would only result in measurement for one particular resistor from particular batch. No conclusions can be made about anything in general. For that you would need to buy tons of different resistors from at least hundreds of batches.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2018, 03:39:07 pm
content: Alternatively, simply accept their non-zero resistance and believe the datasheet claims (which are typically <50mohm).If you happen to have some of that perfect zero-resistance jumper wire, use that. Clearly superior - I don't know why I use 25mm² tails for 100A supplies when small wire links are 0.000ohm.

author: tigr
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2018, 03:44:53 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on February 23, 2018, 03:34:56 pmWhile there is only one result, 0.01Ohm.There are no other results.I wait for yours.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 23, 2018, 04:01:26 pm
content: You bypassed this, rather significant, point:Quote from: wraper on February 23, 2018, 03:34:56 pmWhat is your sample size?

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 23, 2018, 04:01:46 pm
content: why are you making such a deal of it ? they are equivalent to wire, take it or leave it....

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 23, 2018, 04:04:42 pm
content: Yeah .... I've had enough of this.tigr- believe what you will.... and don't think my abandoning of this thread is any concession to you. My involvement has been a waste of my time and now is when I walk away.

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2018, 04:33:38 pm
content: Quote from: tigr on February 23, 2018, 10:43:01 amSure, after a really nice PM from you just now, harassing & cursing me with lots of "F" words, I still owe you, not a big deal.So, please apologize me for "YOUR" thickness and stupidity.

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2018, 04:38:29 pm
content: Quote from: tigr on February 23, 2018, 01:56:56 pmYour photo there are saved for collection.Here, attached below your own photo, just added some more brightness for more clarity, this dude doesn't even know how to alter a photo properly, lets alone understand or measure low resistance. What an embarrassment.C'mon tigr, learn how to use photo editing 1st, then play with capacitor or resistors.

author: ArdWar
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2018, 04:57:53 pm
content: Quote from: BravoV on February 23, 2018, 04:38:29 pmThat's not a zero, but ??, Ohm in Cyrillic.Edit: Bloody forum CMS doesn't support unicode...

author: Shock
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2018, 05:08:06 pm
content: Here I'm making two "totally" scientific measurements:Top Instrument using my patent pending zero wire technique0.000000000001 Amps current drawnBottom Instrument using my patent pending 4* wires soldered technique0.000034 Ohms resistanceNow looking at your measurements Tigr I can see you are not accounting for drift, temperature, surface resistance, relative humidity and gravitational acceleration.Therefore I suggest if you are going to explain further assumptions as fact instead start by explaining the science with a working hypothesis. Then allow peer review and if they disagree with your findings provide evidence to prove them wrong.e.g.Tigr: The Peak Atlas ESR 60 is measuring 0.01 OhmsDoubter: But it says on their website the resolution is as fine as 0.01 Ohms but typically 0.02 OhmsTigr: (insert evidence backing up former statement)orTigr: The Peak Atlas ESR 60 has 4 wire measurementDoubter: But why do the wires in the images on their website have 2 single connection banana jacks and some came with only 2 wires?Tigr: (insert evidence backing up former statement)

author: tigr
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2018, 05:27:32 pm
content: BravoVI stick to one principle.I do not communicate with women in technical topics.I give you the task to prove that there is not 0.01 Ohm.If you do not prove it, then I'll tear you in front of everyone.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2018, 05:28:48 pm
content: Quote from: tigr on February 23, 2018, 05:27:32 pmI give you the task to remove your sexist self from the internet.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 23, 2018, 05:31:52 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on February 23, 2018, 05:28:48 pmsmall chance I think but he is removed from this forum

author: Buriedcode
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2018, 05:36:02 pm
content: tigr, I think any hostility here isn't because we are disputing that you measured 0-ohm jumpers as "0.01ohm" or whatever - it is frustration that you seem to believe that if an instrument spits out a value, that its value is completely accurate. Please re-read my reply on the first page.This forum is for electronics, and a huge part of that is test and measurement, so many here know about the accuracy of their instruments, how much they trust them, and how important accuracy (and precision) is in specific cases (in many cases, it isn't that important! like pull-up resistors). Here you appear to be measuring 0-ohm jumpers, as if they are some precision mystical component, when in fact they are even less interesting than standard 5% resistors, since we only care that their resistance is below a certain value so we can just assume they are like PCB traces, or wires, rather than their absolute value.Other sources of frustration come from the idea that you can measure 10 milliohms accurately without 4-wire measurements. Once you get down to milliohms, the natural resistance ofALLmaterials - ie: the connections you make to the component under test - become significant, and so require a way to mitigate that, cancel it out, or account for it. So there are folks who have replied who have careers making precision measurements that have been insulted by you simply posting a picture of an LCD displaying "0.01 ohms" saying "you measure it then!".It doesn't matter how many you measure, or what instruments use use to do it (or how accurate they are) - I really don't think anyone gives a shit. I don't think anyone is going to measure their 0ohm jumpers because we don't need to know their resistance.I provided a link to an article discussing the differences between accuracy, precision, tolerance and resolution which nicely explains the concepts.edit: and... he's gone. I genuinely thought he just grossly misunderstood how the world worksIt is something that appears to be on the increase (or I'm just noticing it more).. people blindly believing "what tech tells them" without really understanding why.

author: Shock
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2018, 05:36:21 pm
content: Voted off.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 23, 2018, 05:38:29 pm
content: Quote from: Buriedcode on February 23, 2018, 05:36:02 pmYou won't get an answer from him as I have banned him.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 24, 2018, 02:59:25 am
content: Quote from: tigr on February 23, 2018, 05:27:32 pmLike .... wow!That attitude was old 30 years ago.QuoteIllogical and arrogant, to boot.Quote from: Simon on February 23, 2018, 05:38:29 pmNo argument from me.Anyone have some tar and feathers to spare? We can give him a going away party.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 24, 2018, 03:59:32 am
content: Quote from: tigr on February 23, 2018, 05:27:32 pmI often give them hour long phonesexrepair sessions (1000s of kilometers away). Even without technical knowledge, if explained well enough often they are capable to fix stuff (of course not component level repair). Like PCB swap, replacing thermocouple and similar.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 24, 2018, 04:07:43 am
content: .... and sometimes, even similarly experienced men have been able to do that.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2018, 04:38:44 am
content: I'm always a little saddened when a member whom has acted civilly gets banned and too often it's those from another culture were English is a second language.It's too easy to misinterpret their contributions and not all here are willing to work through to an mutual understanding with them.Oh well, it is what it is.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 24, 2018, 04:50:21 am
content: I agree - and I did wonder about some choices of language - but working through to a mutual understanding requires effort from both sides. Part of that requires a little humility and open mindedness, which was somewhat lacking on one side of this ledger.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 24, 2018, 08:51:02 am
content: I think this has run its full course now.