Solder frustration, hard to melt  - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / beginners

author: FireHazard
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 27, 2023, 03:23:28 am
content: I'm starting to avoid even basic projects that involve any kind of soldering as I seem to struggle with every joint.I don't really know how to describe it but even on very small boards the solder does not want to melt very easily and when it does it doesn't wet/flow onto the pad/part.I've tried flux pens, rosin flux brushed on etc. I am using tin/lead solder with 2% flux. I've tried a few different diameters.The solder melts nicely if i touch the tip of the iron directly, away from the part and board...but when all three are together the solder takes several seconds to melt...and doesn't really want to flow on to the part/board but tends to want to ball up on the tip...I've watched videos, started with the basics, tried a few different size and shape tips.. etc.I'm using a Horusdy 882D solder station, which I've had for a few months and purchased based on some good reviews. I've completed a few projects with it but it's been a painful slog from start to finish. Using random flux I can buy here along with random tin/lead solder I can buy locally.I don't know what else to try...

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 27, 2023, 03:41:26 am
content: Among all this, you did not mention the type of solder, what temperature setting and what tip you are using.

author: Ian.M
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 27, 2023, 04:39:07 am
content: Cut a novice some slack! The O.P. mentioned they are using locally obtained "tin/led" solder with 2% flux core, but probably doesn't know that any Sn/Pb solder composition more than a few percent away from the Sn 61.9% / Pb 38.1% eutectic is unsuitable for general electronics work. I strongly suspect they have Sn60/Pb40 solder, (or at least solder labelled as such).@FireHazard,Please post closeup pictures of your soldering iron tip, the board you are trying to solder, and any labels on your reel of solder (as we need to confirm its (claimed) composition). Also, what temperature do you have the solder station iron set to?

author: JustMeHere
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 27, 2023, 04:49:33 am
content: Bigger tip, more heat, flux can help. Also try melting a bead of solder on your bigger tip and applying that to what you're trying to melt.I favor the Bevel or C-series Tips.Use the biggest tip you can get into your work area.Heat? Hotter can be faster, and cooler....how? You only heat up the area you touch if you're hot enough and fast enough.Oh yeah, give the iron a good 5 minutes to heat up if it's not an "instant on" type.

author: FireHazard
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 27, 2023, 05:01:22 am
content: Quote from: Ian.M on July 27, 2023, 04:39:07 amThanks Ian,Yes, unbranded generic stuff. Pics attached. Trying with two different tips... I covered them with a good deal of solder before letting them cool...I've been generally setting the solder station to 350 C..... but it claims to be able to go above 400 ...EDIT: As far as tips go, i've tried a few different types that came with the solder station... so again, fairly generic..

author: David Aurora
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 27, 2023, 05:10:41 am
content: Ignore the numbers on your station and adjust until it works as expected. You could definitely buy better solder as well, but most likely your issue is just that your actual soldering temperature isn't what your display is telling you. Maybe it's not calibrated properly, maybe it's dropping a lot on contact, maybe your tip sucks, maybe the numbers are bullshit

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 27, 2023, 05:10:49 am
content: >Horusdy 882DNeverheard, google finds no results.>(picture of the tip)Tip is too small.Soldering iron is pretty important, random Chinese junk sometimes work fine but sometimes unusable. That no-name solder also makes things worse, but I don't think it's the main culprit. I would vote for a bad iron.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 27, 2023, 05:15:08 am
content: Another possible thing is that it actually goes to 350. At that temperature rosin flux will burn out really fast, and the solder will not flow as well. Adjust it to 320 and see if it still easily melts the solder without anything else, then try that.It is very hard to tell what may be wrong without looking at what is going on.Also, that conical tip is garbage, no idea why they even bother making them. The other tip looks workable.And yes, I assume it is a typo. There are 0 search results for "Horusdy 882D".

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 27, 2023, 05:16:20 am
content: Quote from: FireHazard on July 27, 2023, 03:23:28 amIt's likely not getting hot enough. Your 60/40 solder will melt at about 190C (if it is what it claims to be) but you need to get it a bit hotter to wet the PCB. So your iron could be way too cold and the solder would still melt and stick to it, but you'd be unable to transfer enough heat to the board. Try turning your iron all the way up and see if that helps. Use the first tip that you show (the bevel) as the other one is too fine for anything other than small work. Neither one looks great, frankly.

author: Ian.M
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 27, 2023, 05:37:44 am
content: I agree with the others that the thin pointy tip is going to be useless for larger joints as it simply cant conduct enough heat to the tip fast enough. There aren't many good uses for something like that apart from dead-bugging QFN or reworking 0402 or 0201 'flysh!t' passives. The bevel tip in the first photo looks reasonable.The Duratech brand solder wire is more likely to be the 'good stuff' than the Xiau Huang Ren one, as it claims to be an Australian brand (albeit made in China), and has the alloy composition on its label. I'm always suspicious of solder that isn't labelled properly, as Lead is a lot cheaper than Tin, and there are legitimate (non-electronics) uses for higher Lead content solder, so an unscrupulous seller/exporter may sell you e.g. Pb60/Sn40, (as "60/40") and claim they had no idea that you wanted electronics grade solder rather than something to repair a vintage car radiator with!Siwastaja's comment about the iron is notable. The most likely cause of problems here for Hakko clones and similar style irons is the fit of the tip over the ceramic element. Too big an air gap results in poor heat transfer, but you need a tiny gap as the tip must still slide on and off the element easily as if it seizes on the element due to expanding metal oxides inside the tip cavity, you will most likely break the element trying to get it off. Genuine tips and elements are made to closer tolerances. You can try shimming between the tip and element but that can be a PITA when changing tips, and if you close up the gap too much risks the tip seizing.

author: JustMeHere
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 27, 2023, 06:40:30 am
content: If you're using external rosin, don't worry about the whole "got to melt it all together at the same time" theory. Load up you tip with as much solder as it will hold. Rub some of that paste you have on your joint. Then stick the iron on there. It can help to pre-tin your joints too.Go get an old PCB and practice on it. Try taking small components off first. Then go for larger. Don't be afraid of messing it up.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 27, 2023, 09:05:56 am
content: Quote from: FireHazard on July 27, 2023, 03:23:28 amThat is quite indicative of the workpiece not getting hot enough. Use a bigger tip, and make sure it’s got a fresh “pillow” of solder on it as a thermal bridge to the workpiece. Oxidized solder on the tip, and/or an oxidized tip, conduct heat FAR worse.Watch this video series:https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL926EC0F1F93C1837It’s hands-down, by a wide margin, the best soldering tutorial I have ever found. It’s worth the time, your soldering will improve through it.I would also try some top-quality name-brand solder, like Kester, AIM, Indium, Multicore/Loctite, Felder, ChipQuik, MG Chemicals, etc. (Kester remains my all-time favorite.) Chinese solder is all over the place, and there are many reports of people finding that it simply won’t flow. (Rumors are that some of them are cheaply recycled solder.)

author: macboy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 27, 2023, 09:21:04 pm
content: Definitely buy some Kester "44" in 63/37 or 60/40 alloy (if you can find it, 62/36/2 is even better, with 2% silver). For through hole work, 0.020" to 0.031" (0.5 to 0.8 mm) works well. A company called NTE sells repackaged Kester solder in a small "pocket pak" so you can buy just a small amount for around $5 or less. Search part number 83-7145-0415 for example. Kester alloys are top notch, and more importantly, 44 flux is just simply amazing. As long as you don't mind cleaning up the Rosin residue, I can see no reason for a hobbyist to use anything else.If you use that solder/flux combination, then you have definitively eliminated the single most important variable. So if it still doesn't work well, you are pretty much down to either the equipment or technique.

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 27, 2023, 09:40:25 pm
content: Start from saving you frustrations and only buy known brand solder. Kester is a good choice. It is more expensive but a roll will serve you over huge time period.Secondly, your iron tip is too small for general work.

author: DavidAlfa
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 27, 2023, 09:57:08 pm
content: Cheap solder forms a terrible mess with a texture resemblying sand.Nowadays most solder emits obnoxious fumes and you have to pay them with human organs, so I usually buy old 60/40 rolls for cheap at 2nd hand plataforms, last year I got 1KG for just $10!It's the old solder everyone will remember from 25 years ago, before the Rohs, with fumes that aren't irritating at all.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 27, 2023, 09:58:56 pm
content: Since no-one else has mentioned it, I have that very same solder flux you pictured, and it should be fine. Just for confirmation.As others have said, your problems are most likely with the temperature, the size of the tip, and the solder.

author: DavidAlfa
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 27, 2023, 10:04:53 pm
content: Seems a combination of low power, wrong tip (Use a decent sized tip) and/or low temperature (360°C is usually a good spot).Don't expect to melt a large piece with a needle-like tip.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 27, 2023, 11:19:26 pm
content: Quote from: DavidAlfa on July 27, 2023, 10:04:53 pmThe temperature setting really depends on both tip size, thermal mass, and responsiveness of the soldering station. With my Ersa i-Con nano, or the big i-Con at work, or the JBC at my old work, using an appropriately sized tip, leaded soldering can often be done at 290-300C. Heck, at the place with JBC, we only used lead-free and we were not permitted to go above 350C, and even that was frowned upon.With that said, I doubt the OP’s station is one that is good enough to use such low temps.

author: Ian.M
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 27, 2023, 11:37:55 pm
content: For many years Weller supplied a PTAA7 bit as standard with their TCP Magnastat range of irons. The Curie point slug on the back of that tip set the temperature to 700°F (~370°C) and many thousands of workshops used that tip as their default for through-hole soldering and rework with Sn60/Pb40. You could leave an TCP iron running at 700°F on all day six days a week without burning up the bit, provided you wiped and retinned after every break you took, but the PTDD8 800°F bit we kept for big terminals needed to be shut off within five minutes of inactivity, or it would become a total PITA to re-tinIMHO 370°C is still a good starting point for cheaper solder stations that may have questionable thermal recovery - its a good compromise between getting enough heat into the work quickly enough, and not burning up the bit during extended inactivity (on stations without in-stand setback).

author: FireHazard
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 27, 2023, 11:44:18 pm
content: Thank you, something like this?https://nz.element14.com/kester-solder/24-6337-8802/solder-wire-63-37-sn-pb-183-c/dp/1162176I'm based in New Zealand...and getting *anything* that one simply takes for granted elsewhere in the world is a drag.

author: FireHazard
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 27, 2023, 11:50:21 pm
content: So after some experimentation using the fantastic input from this thread, i've found that I need to set the station all the way up to about 410 degrees to get 'melty' flowing solder that I can actually do something with.Is my journey to soldering just going to be a lot less painful if I go and get an FX951 or something?For larger context, I'm not totally new to soldering, I've completed a number of projects of the years, the last being a recap of a pair of studio monitors, but it's always been a hard uphill battle (particularly on that project where the PCB had some fairly heavy traces).

author: Ian.M
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2023, 12:07:09 am
content: You need to get some idea whether the problem is the solder station is out of calibration or if its a heat delivery problem cause by excessive clearance between the element and tip. For the former, assuming you don't have a soldering tip thermocouple thermometer, probably the easiest is to use the melting point of pure Lead: 327.5 °C. Cut a very narrow strip from some soft lead sheet (soft lead is probably pure enough to have a melting point close to 327.5 °C, as most impurities in concentrations that would significantly affect the melting point make lead significantly harder), dip it in flux and use it like solder to 'tin' the bit three times to remove traces of real solder etc. Leave some on the bit and turn the iron down slowly till it just solidifies, then turn it up till it just melts. A wooden toothpick dipped in flux is useful for prodding the blob of lead to see if its molten. That should give you a pretty good idea if the station's temperature readout is anywhere near correct.The bit should be a close but free-sliding fit on the element for good thermal transfer. If its too loose, it may be worth trying to source a genuine bit from whatever Western manufacturer the iron was cloned from, as unless the element is seriously undersize, it should be a much better fit.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2023, 12:17:18 am
content: Quote from: FireHazard on July 27, 2023, 11:50:21 pmYes absolutely. A very long time ago I struggled with electronics soldering (I was good at pipes and radiator, even using irons) until I got an Antex 50W temp-controlled iron (now sold as the TCS50W, but unfortunately for me only in 230V trim) and then suddenly and magically, I could solder.So, IMO, the minimum for doing decent soldering is a basic temp-controlled iron or stationthat has good quality tips. Antex (irons) and the Hakko FX888D are examples--these are the least I would consider but there are other good options in the $100 (US) bracket. Next step up would be the basic T12/T15 cartridge-style irons, like the FX951, KSGER, etc. Then you can spend more and more, but those upgrades will be incremental compared to that first leap from absolute crap to a real tool.Your little tub of gelled flux is fine, but I'd also get some brand-name eutectic solder. I can easily manage either way, but for delicate or mechanically tricky operations eutectic is so much nicer to work with that I don't mind paying $$$ for a spool.

author: rhb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2023, 04:14:40 am
content: I got sucked into the temperature controlled iron BS until I bought a couple of temperature controlled irons. That is all it is.The solder joint won't form properly until the *connecting* parts are hotter than the melting point of the solder. That requires that a certain number of calories flow from the iron into the parts to be soldered. Otherwise you get a "cold joint".A small, low temperature iron tip takes a long time to transfer enough heat. A small *hot* tip drops in temperature quickly as the heat flows into the joint. That minimizes part heating.To make the connection quickly you want the iron to heat the parts quickly. That requires that when the heat flows from the tip into the parts they all become sufficiently hot to melt solder in the least amount of time possible.The specific heat of the solder doesn't vary such that a few degrees above the eutectic matters. What matters is how many calories does the tip hold relative to what's needed to make the connection in one second or less. That's my standard. Touch the iron, touch the solder and remove iron and solder to let the joint cool. However, it *does* require being in practice as is the case with most manual skills. So I'm not very good if I'm soldering a few connections a month. But after an hour or two I'm running full speed again.This is Intro Physics 101 level thermodynamics. Temperature matters in a reflow oven where everything gets heated. Hand soldering done properly doesn't heat the part significantly because as soon as the solder melts you remove the heat source.I have gone back to a traditional industrial fixed wattage grounded iron with a wedge tip. When it's difficult to make good contact with the iron a *tiny* amount of solder will improve the thermal transfer rate. Other than that, you don't want solder on the tip. That's why people use some type of tip cleaner. I prefer a piece of wet cellulose sponge most of the time, but have a copper scouring pad tip cleaner also if I need it.Suggestion for the OP. Take some short pieces of 24-26 AWG wire and twist the stripped ends together to form practice joints. Line them up so you can immediately go from one to the next. Practice on those until you can make the connection in less than 1 second. Try different tips, solder sizes and temperature settings including maximum setting.Have Fun!Reg

author: Doctorandus_P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2023, 05:04:27 am
content: Start by buying a bit of solder from a trusted and known good brand.You can also do a temperature calibration very easily, by sticking a blob of solder to your iron, and then twiddling with the temperature knob to figure out where it just melts. Eutectic alloys go from solid to liquid quite fast, while the more it deviates from the "perfect alloy" you will get a pasty like solder between liquid and solid.Also, heat transfer between a soldering iron and the stuff (on a PCB?) to be soldered can be sketchy. My preferred method is to put a tiny bit of solder in between the soldering iron and the thing to be soldered to improve the heat transfer, and then add more solder directly to the thing to be soldered (without the solid solder touching the iron). The reason is to reduce the speed with which the flux cooks off. Once the flux is cooked off, the solder will not wet anymore.It's also possible that your iron is simply faulty. For example when the mechanical connection between the heating element and the tip of the iron is bad, then the tip does reach the normal soldering temperature, but once you actually start soldering it's temperature drops quite rapidly as it's cooled by the cold mass touching it and you can't solder properly with such an iron.There are quite a lot of variables which have to work together for a soldering process to work properly, and experience is one of those. Maybe you can lend a soldering iron or other solder brands just to compare and get some more experience.Yet another possibility is that the things you try to solder are to much oxidized. This may prevent the solder (+flux) from wetting it properly too.

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2023, 05:50:32 am
content: Quote from: Ian.M on July 27, 2023, 11:37:55 pmThese Weller TCP Magnastat irons are just excellent. Of course the magnetic switch eventually wears out but that takes years of 24/7 use. The Weller tips are also of high quality and last surprisingly long even with such "high" temperature. These irons and tips combine decent thermal mass and temperature which is on the higher end of the sweet range, but still within that range so they don't burn the flux too fast. Thanks to the curie point operating principle, they sense the tip temperature fast so react quickly.So I would wholeheartedly recommend an old, used Weller TCP station (one without the adjustment knob, which requires tip change to adjust the temperature), and some 7 tips for leaded or 8 tips for lead-free (the tip number refers to temperature), something like 2.4mm chisel tip for SMD work and 4mm or so chisel tip for generic work, and the biggest chisel tip you can find for larger pieces.

author: sleemanj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2023, 06:00:01 am
content: The Duratech should be fine, it's from Jaycar, it'll be fine.The tip is too small, get a larger size tip, looks to be standard 900M style tips. There are some listings for 900M tip selections on Trade Me if you don't have a larger one available already, 4248684094, 4247661062, 4247645350, 4248110265 all seem to be local sellers.Cranking the heat up compensates for the too small tip. Fit a larger tip, and you should be able to drop the heat down.Note that we don't know what you are soldering too. The larger the copper area you are trying to get solder onto, the more trouble you will have and higher temperature you will need.

author: golden_labels
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2023, 06:43:58 am
content: As for the station, I guess this is theGeneralChinese™882D. Search for common no-brand brands with 882D. For example Yihua 882D.Looking at the information I found, it is 60 W. So by raw numbers it should be good enough. Unfortunately this doesn’t tell much about how well it reacts to tip temperature going down.I would check things in this order:If it’s your own PCB made from scratch, clean it well before soldering. If pads are dirty even the best iron, solder and flux will be useless.A bigger tip. The more massive, the better. As big as you can comfortably work with for the given part size. The iron may be 20 W, 60 W, or damn 500 W, but it’s not instant. The first, most direct source of energy is the iron tip itself.Assuming that the station can’t deliver sufficient energy fast enough, rise the temperature above the expected one to compensate.

author: FireHazard
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2023, 10:44:25 pm
content: Quote from: sleemanj on July 28, 2023, 06:00:01 amThank you. Yes I do have some larger tips that came with the iron. Running at 380 or so with the larger tip is working fine now and letting me do some thru-hole kits without to much trouble. I really want to be working on some SMD practice kits though, which presumably need the conical tip ? I've got a few home electronics repair jobs to do (HDMI chip on Onkyo AV receiver, charging chip on a Nintendo Switch) etc... I've diagnosed the issues but my solder skills (as always) are lacking that allows me to tackle the job myself... hence i've finally resolved to stop saying "Oh I just won't be able to do jobs that small" and get the practice in.At the right temperature the Duratech seems okay now....Do you know of any source in NZ to easily get hold of Kester ?

author: Ian.M
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2023, 11:23:38 pm
content: No, for general SMD work, use the largest bevel ('hoof') tip you can get in-between the parts without disturbing adjacent parts. It covering several pins of the same IC isn't a problem if you use the drag soldering method. If you need to get into a tighter space use the largest chisel tip you can, possibly even its corner if the space is really tight. Conical tips are only good for small joints on thinnish tracks. Long conical tips are pretty much useless!

author: ejeffrey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2023, 02:11:39 am
content: Yeah, almost always use chisel tips. It's helpful to have a couple of sizes, always use the biggest you can. I regularly solder 0402 passives and fine pitch QFPs with them. I will use a conical tip for soldering flying leads to a pin, or sometimes for desoldering, but it's definitely more of a specialty use. A chisel tip is the daily workhorse for SMT work.

author: EPAIII
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2023, 03:17:14 am
content: Points I have always considered worth remembering.Yes, a temperature controlled iron is the first thing you want to use. BUT, also look at the power rating. The non-controlled pencils often use a large mass tip with a lower power rating to avoid damaging PCBs. That is not a good combination. The trick with a temperature controlled iron is it MUST have a high enough power rating to allow it to rapidly recover it's temperature (in a second or two) when the tip is cooled by the copper traces of a PCB. Copper is an excellent heat conductor so some copper traces can cool a tip very rapidly. A 40 W, temperature controlled iron is the minimum power I would use and 50 or 60 W ones are better. Perhaps even 75 W. The temperature control is there to prevent you from baking the copper traces off the PCB. The power is there to make the soldering possible.YES, use the chisel, sometimes called screwdriver, tips. They allow a small drop of solder to cling to the flat side and that small drop of liquid solder is the best way to rapidly transfer heat from the iron to the copper traces. My technique is: 1. clean the tip IMMEDIATELY before use, 2. put a small amount of solder on the tip, 3. touch that melted solder to the trace, 4. WAIT a second or two for the trace to heat up, and 5. add the needed amount of solder TO THE HOT TRACE to complete the joint. Oh, and step 0 is to add a moderate amount of flux to the joint. That helps a lot.With the chisel tips you will often find that the small drop of solder will cling to just one side of the tip. In step 3 above, OBSERVE which side that is and TURN the iron to bring it against the joint. That drop of solder is not gong to do any good if it is facing the air. This is a BIG reason for using the chisel tips: the solder stays on one side when the tip is rotated to bring it against the joint. A drop of liquid solder can move around a conical tip.If you learned that the joint must be heated before you add solder, FORGET THAT. That is for repairing radiators, sweating copper pipes, and other mechanical soldering. In ELECTRONIC soldering, you need that initial, small drop of solder to bridge the gap between the iron's tip and the joint in order to transfer the heat in the first place. Then, once the joint is hot, you can add the needed amount of solder.One final tip: if you are soldering to a ground or Voltage plane, you will need more heat and that means more POWER. A 25 W and possibly even a 40 W iron may not be powerful enough. I have had to resort to 100 W and higher powered guns to handle such situations. But no harm in trying the temperature controlled iron first.I can't over emphasize the need for enough power. Bigger tips are no substitute for the needed power rating in the heating element. Turning the temperature up higher is also no substitute for that power. If the iron can't heat the joint, then you can't melt the solder into it. And a setting of 10,000 C will not help because an iron with a weak heating element will just stay cool. Just as turning the temperature set point up too much is a bad idea (de laminating the traces) so also is too large of a heating element. Enough of both is needed, but both with moderation. First, enough power and then, the PROPER temperature setting - NEVER all the way up.

author: FireHazard
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2023, 06:54:22 am
content: Quote from: EPAIII on July 29, 2023, 03:17:14 amThank you, great information. Yes, that 'heat the joint first' thing is something I remember always hearing, but I do see and hear the exact opposite now, make that bridge...and it makes perfect sense why...Fully understand on the power rating ... I've taken the plunge and one for a genuine FX951 , this will not only eliminate any concerns about the iron but also give me additional motivation to improve since I've now invested.

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2023, 08:32:51 am
content: Quote from: ejeffrey on July 29, 2023, 02:11:39 amChisel is best all-around because it's three-in-one:* a pointy tip at the corner, for things like soldering tiny bodge wires on tiny (say <0.5mm pitch) IC pins.* a long but narrow edge, for things like SMD resistors/capacitors.* the two large surfaces for soldering larger wires, through hole components etc.And you have two of each! Just hold the iron in different orientations to use these features.In comparison, the pointy tip only has the first two, and the "long edge" mode requires holding the iron in a weird position (almost parallel to the board) so that it often does not fit within components, so then you are left only with the first one. Even the first is crappier with pointy tip as it has less thermal mass near the tip.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2023, 08:37:32 am
content: Quote from: FireHazard on July 29, 2023, 06:54:22 amI disagree to an extent, in that the sentiment is not “heat the joint first” as such, but rather, “heat the joint so you can apply solder to the joint, rather than the iron”. Creating a thermal bridge on the iron is not a contradiction of this, but rather a method for accomplishing it.Did you watch the video series I linked to above? If you haven’t, I cannot be emphatic enough about how useful it is.[Edit: fixed typo.]

author: FireHazard
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2023, 08:40:07 am
content: Quote from: Ian.M on July 28, 2023, 11:23:38 pmAhh interesting! So it seems to me it's not about matching the tip to the size of the PART ..but to the available space?The bevel tip being the first choice because it can present the most surface area?What are a couple of suggested bevel tip starting sizes if I were to get 2 or 3 of them?Thank you

author: FireHazard
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2023, 08:43:59 am
content: Quote from: tooki on July 29, 2023, 08:37:32 amYes I see the difference and point you are making. Thank you.Yes I have watched and am rewatching the video series, thank you for sharing that, it's very informative, well explained and well filmed...very very clear. Will be a wonderful reference for me as I practice.

author: FireHazard
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2023, 08:46:22 am
content: Quote from: Siwastaja on July 29, 2023, 08:32:51 amAhh.... seems obvious now, but I'd never though to try the corner of the chisel tip....it does seem very versatile described this way.

author: Ian.M
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2023, 09:06:50 am
content: The bevel is the first choice for delivering heat to the tip, not because of the surface area (some chisel tips have more), but because it has the largest copper cross section for the greatest part of its length, therefore the lowest thermal resistance. Its also the easiest general purpose tip to drag solder with.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2023, 09:44:30 am
content: Quote from: Ian.M on July 29, 2023, 09:06:50 amYeah, but other than for drag soldering and tinning wires, it's a kind of useless shape IMHO. A chisel has more simultaneous contact area with both pad and component. A bevel has the annoying round end.

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2023, 10:12:16 am
content: Bevel tip has a lot of area but very rarely you can utilize that area, because component+PCB combination is not flat. It's good to have some MASSIVE bevel tip in your toolset though if you ever have to solder large pieces of copper to each other, for example some copper busbar on a wide PCB trace or something like this. Also good when you have to do a lot of wire tinning work at once. But chisel is good enough for drag soldering and wire tinning too although not optimal, but changing tips also costs some time.

author: slavoy
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2023, 10:34:52 am
content: QuoteYou get to melt it so there is enough temperature and no issue with the solder. Just use a chiesel tip, lay it flat side down on the pad just before you put in the solder wire, drag towards the element pad you want to solder and there you go. (And throw away this conical crap) Too thick solder wire relative to pad size will also tend to create a bulb joints, so keep that in mind.Here you have a perfect example:https://youtu.be/5uiroWBkdFY?t=82

author: FireHazard
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2023, 11:33:25 am
content: Quote from: slavoy on July 29, 2023, 10:34:52 amExcellent video......my solder / iron behaves *nothing* like this... i think it's a lack of temperature and too small tips....I will save this video for reference.

author: Solder_Junkie
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2023, 12:18:54 pm
content: An excellent video showing soldering surface mount parts with a soldering iron, is this one:https://youtu.be/eZtPR8_x0ncThe modern trend towards everyone "needing" a temperature controlled soldering station is a touch of FOMO (fear of missing out). I worked in the mobile radio service industry for a major manufacturer for many years and we had to use Weller TCP series irons, the original type with the magnetic switch and a magnet in the bit. We were only supplied with fine pointed conical bits and they were a joke if you needed to unsolder a part on a large area of copper, eventually there was enough heat to melt the solder but it took ages to heat the job.For most home users an ordinary Antex XS (25 Watt) iron will "out solder" a temperature controlled soldering station when working with through hole parts. The Antex has a large amount of metal behind the tip of the bit and doesn't cool when soldering in the same way the lightweight bits of typical soldering stations do. The downside to the XS is the temperature is a little on the hot side, mine measures up to 390C depending on mains Voltage. My smaller Antex M12 (12 Watt) runs at a more reasonable 340C.There is also a myth that you need to adjust the temperature to match the size of the pads/parts being soldered. What you should do is match the bit size to the job in hand... That is why manufacturers offer a range of different size bits.Also, the more flux you add, the more you have to clean off afterwards! Only add additional flux if really necessary, such as pre-tinning a pad with solder before using hot air to solder a large SMD part, for example, a power transistor with a large underside that has to be soldered directly to the board.Happy soldering!SJ

author: rhb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2023, 01:44:58 pm
content: Quote from: EPAIII on July 29, 2023, 03:17:14 amSorry but that is complete BS! If the the parts are below the melting point of the solder, the result is the solder solidifies the instant it touches the connection rather than flow onto the connection. This is basic physics.Why am I so sure?Because I recently tried to solder a banana plug connection with a 35 W EISCO industrial soldering iron with a chisel tip about 1/8" wide intended for thru hole parts. I did get one to adhere, but gave up on the 2nd until I dig out a larger iron.If you don't heat the part, you'll get the solder to flow over the part you haven't fully heated, but it wil not adhere and the slightest force will pull it off.As has been restated many times. The thermal energy in the tip and the tip contact thermal resistance dominate followed by the rate at which the iron can supply heat to the tip based upon the design (non-adjustable) or setting if adjustable.You don't delaminate PCB traces by having the iron too hot. You delaminate traces by heating the trace for too long, i.e. not enough calories in the tip available for immediate transfer to the part. Apply heat to the *biggest* part first.After a period of 30-40 years of not doing any copper piping work I was rather mortified that I had forgotten how. All it took was a reminder about cleaning the copper oxide off with sandpaper. I never failed to scrub PCBs with a green Scotch Brite pad and soap and water, but forgot that steel wool is not a substitue for sandpaper on pipe joints.Another good practice exercise would be to solder wire segments to a round thru hole pad board, desolder then and resolder them. That will require all the operations for both new construction and repair work.RegFWIW The EISCO uses a set screw to hold the tip inside the heating element. My inability to heat the banana plug led me to consider whether filling the center hole with silicone grease might help. So I cleaned the tip, filled the heating element with silicone thermal grease and reinstalled the tip after thoroughly cleaning the oxidation off the part of the tip inside the heating element. It *seems* to heat to melting point a little faster, but that may be a "clean car" effect.The EISCO is a 70's or '80s industrial iron intended to run all day on a thru hole production line. All my work is generally thru hole repairs or Manhattan style prototyping, so it's perfect for that. It's also lousy at anything bigger or smaller.

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2023, 02:03:29 pm
content: Quote from: rhb on July 29, 2023, 01:44:58 pmYou need to read what he said carefully (the "forget that" part was weird and should be ignored). Molten solder on the iron tip is advantageous / sometimes even absolutely necessary because it conforms to the shapes of objects being soldered, and transfers heat much better than the air gaps that would otherwise remain between the iron tip and workpieces. But, because most of the flux has already burnt (and also because the amount of solder at the tip is insufficient), you need to add fresh solder to the actual joint, as EPAIII correctly mentions. When fresh solder is applied at the workpieces (not iron tip), fresh flux from the solder wire flows exactly at the right place.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2023, 02:23:45 pm
content: Quote from: Solder_Junkie on July 29, 2023, 12:18:54 pmTemperature-controlled soldering stations are neither a new thing nor is it a "trend" and certainly not FOMO. That's dismissive codgerdom.Quote from: Solder_Junkie on July 29, 2023, 12:18:54 pmSo... you were using temperature-controlled soldering stations. "Temperature controlled" ≠ "adjustable".And you then proceed to provide an example of a situation where you might need to raise the temperature. I totally agree with your later statement that using a larger tip is preferable, but sometimes you have to use a small tip because you physically cannot get in with a larger one.Quote from: Solder_Junkie on July 29, 2023, 12:18:54 pmYeah no thanks.Maybe stuff like that was OK with old chassis-mounted components. But it isn't appropriate for modern soldering.Quote from: Solder_Junkie on July 29, 2023, 12:18:54 pmBut different shapes conduct heat differently, so a smaller tip often does require a higher temperature, especially with really fine tips.Different temperatures aren't a gimmick. They help you match the process to the workpiece, so that you can get in and get out within the proper amount of time, without overheating or underheating a joint.

author: EPAIII
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2023, 03:30:14 pm
content: My "forget that" is there because far too many beginners hear the "heat the joint first" advise and actually try to do it that way, WITH NO SOLDER ON THE TIP AT ALL. And far too often, that leads to a failure because the BARE, CLEAN tip of the iron can not heat the joint like a torch will heat copper pipes or the parts of a radiator. Then, after trying to heat the joint for 5, 10, or more seconds, they then apply solder and it just coats the tip of the iron, ignoring the joint which is not hot enough. And, in fact, any flux on that joint which may have been applied before the attempt to heat it, will have boiled off, leaving the component lead and copper traces covered with corrosion which prevents the solder from wicking to it.SO, for electronic soldering, I say, FORGET the advise that works so well for plumbers and radiator repair people. To me that is the single piece of soldering advise that prevents too many beginners from easily soldering electronic joints. FORGET IT and DO use a small drop of solder applied to the iron BEFORE trying to heat the joint.The application of solder is a TWO STEP process:Small drop on the tip,Use that small drop to transfer heat,THEN, when the joint IS properly heated, apply the needed amount of solder.And if done properly, all that takes only a second or two.Quote from: Siwastaja on July 29, 2023, 02:03:29 pm

author: ejeffrey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2023, 03:43:28 pm
content: Quote from: Solder_Junkie on July 29, 2023, 12:18:54 pmIn addition to what others have said that's a silly argument because most everything is now surface mount and the OP is specifically interested in SMT. Also TH soldering is pretty forgiving and it hardly matters if one iron "out solders" another.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2023, 03:49:45 pm
content: Quote from: EPAIII on July 29, 2023, 03:30:14 pmI'm surprised at the variety of comments, perhaps we are all soldering different things?For a typical old-school TH solder joint--say a 1/2 watt resistor on a double-sided board with a plated TH--the only thing that works well for me is to start with a good hot iron and small enough diameter solder, then place the (well tinned) tip of the iron on the joint and then apply the solder to the exact point where the iron and pad/component meet. Then I push the solder in rapidly and let it flow over the joint and plating until there's enough solder in place. With some experience you'll know how much solder you have to push in and the whole process will take about 1 second. There is no need to apply solder anywhere else because if you do this correctly it will already be there, including through the TH and onto the opposite-side pad. Doesn't everyone do this?For larger or smaller joints you can adjust as needed. Larger joints need more power or more time, with power being much preferred. There's no point in pushing solder into a half-warmed joint that only softens it into a paste. If you have trouble getting the solder to flow out and it isn't a thermal issue, then you need more cleaning and perhaps a bit of additional flux. There's no shame in pre-tinning your parts or even ordering your boards in HASL.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2023, 10:21:31 pm
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on July 29, 2023, 03:49:45 pmWell that is the basic process. But if you have, say, a 4 layer board with 2 or 3 ground planes, and you’re soldering solid metal coax connectors onto it, it’s easy to be in a situation where solder may not want to flow all the way around a pin, because the ground planes haven’t warmed up yet and are sucking heat away on the side opposite the iron. In that case, “painting on” the solder from the other side may be helpful. (Especially if you can’t add heat with a preheater or something.)

author: FireHazard
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2023, 10:03:36 pm
content: Got my FX951, it simply does not compare to my existing setup... everything melts on 350 C , practically instantly.. and the exact same solder flows very nicely.Wonderful.

author: SL4P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2023, 09:01:53 am
content: Important point to consider….You don’t melt the solder on the iron, unless you’re ‘tinning’ the iron.You might also pre-tin the wire for some joints.Apply heat firmly to theassembledjunction for 2-3 seconds, only then add solder whilekeepingthe iron applied- allowing the solder to run around and into the heated combination (wire and terminal/pcb),Max 3-5 seconds after applying solder to avoid a dry/dull joint.I use 60/40 solder at 400C in 90% of my joints.Nevercarry solder to the joint on the tip of the iron.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2023, 02:00:34 pm
content: Quote from: SL4P on August 10, 2023, 09:01:53 am400C is very hot, especially for lead solder. (Assuming it’s actually 400C at the working end of the tip.)You definitely don’t “firmly” apply heat, you want a very light touch. Firm pressure is how you damage pads.I’d suggest you review the video series I liked to above. It’s an hour of your time that is well worth it.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2023, 03:47:05 pm
content: Quote from: SL4P on August 10, 2023, 09:01:53 amFurther to the note by tooki, this particular point is really not true either. It is very difficult to raise the joint to soldering temperature unless you create a bridge of solder between the iron and the joint to conduct the heat. Good soldering videos illustrate this technique.

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2023, 04:15:19 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on August 10, 2023, 03:47:05 pmExactly. The process of becoming from a beginner to a decent solder...er (is that a word?) is often three-step:1) apply solder to the iron tip, trying to "paint" workpieces with it2) learn that #1 is wrong, and learn to apply solder to the workpieces, not the iron tip3) learn that there was some truth in #1 after all, namely liquid (molten) solder acting as heat transfer medium; thus, some solder is applied to the iron tip, and more is applied to the workpiecesWhether it takes 60 minutes or 6 years through these steps depends on person. Some get stuck at #2 and keep giving if not outright wrong, at leastpartialadvice to the young players.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2023, 04:39:06 pm
content: Just to be clear, when I said “paint” the solder on, I meant with the wire solder itself.

author: golden_labels
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2023, 05:40:07 pm
content: What SL4P may be talking about a particular soldering technique, which was being suggested by some in the past. Younger people and persons living in areas with better circulation of high-quality information may not remember it. The self-proclaimed experts claimed “the right way” is to melt an entire blob of solder on the tip and then transfer this to the soldered element.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 12, 2023, 04:32:26 pm
content: Quote from: golden_labels on August 10, 2023, 05:40:07 pmAnd if you've pre-applied gel or liquid flux to the joint, that will work just fine.

author: golden_labels
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 12, 2023, 07:10:23 pm
content: Such things were not available back then. And nothing like this was a part of the suggested procedure.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 12, 2023, 09:23:27 pm
content: Quote from: golden_labels on August 12, 2023, 07:10:23 pmComplete and utter nonsense. Liquid and paste fluxes for electronics have been available since at least the 1950s and probably much earlier.

author: Veteran68
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 12, 2023, 09:39:58 pm
content: Quote from: golden_labels on August 10, 2023, 05:40:07 pmI learned to solder around 45 years ago, and don't recall ever learning that, nor seeing any instruction to "melt an entire blob of solder on the tip and then transfer this to the soldered element." Now I've certainly SEEN a lot of hacks do this, as it seems to be the commonly assumed method when a person has had no proper instruction.Quote from: golden_labels on August 12, 2023, 07:10:23 pmAlso not my experience, again unless you're talking 100 years ago. That said, when I started out, the use of externally applied flux was taught mainly for non-electronics uses (e.g. plumbing) since we used rosin-core solder. But I knew electronics flux was available, I just remember questioning why when we had rosin in our solder. Wasn't much SMD being done back then though.

author: FireHazard
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 12, 2023, 09:45:15 pm
content: As a beginner , who for the first time feels that they are now actually making progress in the skill of this I'd share my off the cuff observations so far.1. Yes, 100%, heat the joint and apply solder between tip and part to create that heat bridge works wonderfully.2. There seems to be no situation where adding flux isn't helpful.3. As far as tips go, the bigger the better! (assuming it will fit where you need).3. for TINY operations, like attaching something to an 0802, adding flux first then coming in with nothing more than a tinned tip with a bit of extra solder there seems to do the job. Presumably because the tip is large enough, the heat is plentiful from the iron and the part so small, everything heats so rapidly that it works...4. Soldering can be quite enjoyable!

author: golden_labels
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 12, 2023, 10:19:32 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on August 12, 2023, 09:23:27 pmMaybe in Switzerland the use of paste fluxes was widespread and normal in 1950s. I wasn’t in Switzerland in 1950s, so I can’t tell. But don’t measure the entire world by what you are used to from your local experience.I’m also not sure, what you are trying to sayin this context. I provided a possible explanation of what SL4P might’ve been referring to. The statement I made is that I remember recommendations of this kind being made. So what is the negation? That these are false memories or that I consciously lie? I do not see a third option.Here, use a translator— clearly somebody else also has false memories back in 2011, not to mention inventing stories about dissolving rosin in denaturated alcohol and using nail polish.Quote from: Veteran68 on August 12, 2023, 09:39:58 pmDid you learn it outside USA? Did you check, what information was exchanged outside of your own circles? Among people, who never had access to hobby electronics magazines — neither directly nor through friends? Or any other authoritative knowledge of good quality?

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 12, 2023, 10:43:24 pm
content: Quote from: golden_labels on August 12, 2023, 10:19:32 pmRosin paste fluxes in tins have been readily available everywhere, ever since soldering was invented. There is nothing odd about this.

author: Veteran68
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 12, 2023, 10:50:42 pm
content: Quote from: golden_labels on August 12, 2023, 10:19:32 pmI'm not sure your point? Electronics instruction is available worldwide, and was even before the internet. Granted, some countries and social circles had greater access to educational materials than others. But I think it a far stretch, not to mention insulting. to imply that only the US or "first world" countries knew how to solder properly because only they had access to knowledge, whether through instruction, magazines, books, or word of mouth. Knowledge gets passed along from person to person in many different ways. Most soldering irons came with basic instructions, even the cheap fixed temp irons, and I don't recall ever seeing one saying to melt a big blog of solder on the tip and bring it to the joint.People figuring stuff out on their own, sure, they're probably going to get it wrong. Hence my point "...it seems to be the commonly assumed method when a person has had no proper instruction." I don't see how that's relevant to your statements implying that everyone that wasn't from "privileged circles" did it the wrong way back in the day when that's clearly not true as a blanket statement. Maybe in YOUR circles.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 12, 2023, 11:21:56 pm
content: Quote from: golden_labels on August 12, 2023, 07:10:23 pmI wasn't suggesting that whoever promoted that method used flux or was anything more than a hack. I've seen plenty of terrible soldering work and I suppose that's one way to do it. But as far as flux goes, liquid and paste fluxes certainly predate flux core solder. The idea to make the solder into a hollow wire and put flux inside it would naturally come from the practice of using wire or bar solder with paste or powder fluxes. Paste flux has been available in hardware stores for as long as I can remember.I was just pointing out that starting with a blob on the iron is typically how you actually solder very small things. There are other techniques too, like tinning both things separately and then putting them together and just giving them a quick push with the iron. Anyone with soldering experience knows that different situations require adaptation. And anyone who actually heats a joint completely without solder for 4-5 seconds and then applies solder, well I hope you're a plumber.

author: golden_labels
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2023, 01:54:22 am
content: So what was the goal of the answer?Of course there are many soldering techniques, which may involve not putting solder directly on the element. But I was mentioning a particular situation, in the context of what SL4P said, clearly indicating it: “What SL4P may be talking about […]”. I even made a qualification, limiting the scope of what I wrote: “[…] persons living in areas with better circulation of high-quality information […]”. SL4P themselves provided a counterexample.So why is everybody responding as if I was making a blanket statement about the general situation or, worse, a specific situation in your area/time? I will not even discuss the problem of using existential quantifier to counter another existential quantifier: just tell me, what is the point you are all trying to make and how does it relate to what I said?

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2023, 02:36:10 am
content: Quote from: golden_labels on August 13, 2023, 01:54:22 amMy original comment about using flux was not intended as a refutation of what you said. I've read many bad or incomplete instructions on how to solder and I was just suggesting how to improve on that stated technique--but not implying that whoever was advocating that method used flux.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2023, 02:40:57 am
content: Quote from: golden_labels on August 13, 2023, 01:54:22 amBecause that's exactly what you did:Quote from: golden_labels on August 12, 2023, 10:19:32 pmThat's a blanket statement about the entire world, and more so, about a specific situation in Switzerland in the 1950s.You are making the ludicrous statement that paste fluxes were not used with solder starting from the day solder was invented, every place in the world that solder was used. This is a ludicrous statement, because soldering simply doesn't work without flux. Without flux, soldering becomes impossible. Therefore, wherever there there was solder and soldering, there was flux. This does not simply mean going back to the 1950s, this means going back thousands of years in history.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2023, 03:40:51 pm
content: Quote from: golden_labels on August 12, 2023, 10:19:32 pm1. I wasn’t in Switzerland back then, not to mention that that was still decades before I was born. I have electronics experience in two countries by the way, USA and Switzerland.2. Solder manufacturer information from the 50s refers to them.3. I didn’t say “widespread and normal”, I said “have been available”.4. Moreover, you realize that soldering has existed for far, far, far, FAR longer than flux-core solder wire has existed, right? IIRC flux-core solder debuted in the 1920s or so. Soldering has been around formillennia, and flux was as essential to the process then as it is now. So it’s pretty much guaranteed that liquid and paste fluxes pre-date flux-core solder by a very long time.5. The fact that you weren’tawareof such fluxes a) doesn’t mean they didn’t exist in other places, and b)doesn’t mean they didn’t exist where you were!There is a high likelihood that specialist dealers did, in fact, have them. You admonish me to not “measure the whole world” by the experience in one country, yet that’s exactly whatyoudid when claiming that liquid and paste fluxes didn’t exist back then.