Tactful way to request rent for personal equipment use at work? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Pack34
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 08, 2018, 08:01:21 pm
content: I've been using my own scopes, computers, microscope, meters, etc at work for years and I feel it's about time that I either get these purchased for me or that I should start getting paid rent.Is there a nice way to approach this conversation without losing standing?

author: sokoloff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 08, 2018, 08:13:13 pm
content: It depends on your relationship with your employer. If it's a bunch of guys working together as equals in a startup, maintain the status quo; maybe ask for anything new that you need to be bought with company funds.If you're just an "employee in sector 7-G" in a big company, feel free to do anything ranging from taking the personally owned equipment back home and then asking for what you need. I don't think that "rent" is generally going to fly. As a mid-level manager, I don't want to rock the boat and if you submit an expense report asking for "rent" for equipment, it's going to cause all kinds of ruckus that I don't want.Just decide that you need the equipment at home for some reason and take it home. Let the natural conclusion happen from there. ("Oh, that was my personal scope and I needed it to troubleshoot something at home. Since the company needs a scope, I'd recommend that we buy XYZ model.")

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 08, 2018, 08:16:57 pm
content: It feels like what led to this situation is relevant too. Was it your choice or theirs, did you prove anything by bringing in your own first etcetera.

author: GreyWoolfe
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 08, 2018, 08:27:07 pm
content: Pack, you already lost standing by bringing in your personal equipment. Your superiors are probably thrilled to death that they don't have to buy you what you need to do your job. More for the bottom line and their bonuses. I use my own hand tools/meters to do my job but that was my choice. I prefer to own my tools and take them with me if my company and I should ever choose to part ways. I have never had an issue getting anything I need to do my job that I won't buy for myself. I ask, explain my need and then get permission to purchase/expense it.I would take all my toys home. When I am questioned as to why my work isn't getting done, I would respectfully reply that the company hasn't supplied me the tools I need to do my job. Also that I no longer feel it is proper for me to use my own equipment for the benefit of the company as there has been no previous compensation for said use. I wouldn't give them the option of renting your equipment. At the end of the day, it is still your personal equipment and you are not making money with your equipment like you would if you were self employed. You will earn the same paycheck without using your equipment. If they refuse to supply what you need and expect you to bring back your equipment, maybe it is time to find greener pastures.Disclaimer: this personal opinion doesn't necessarily represent the opinion of the eevBlog forum membership at large. Your mileage may vary. Does not include tax, tag handling, dealer prep and all available options. Please read the fine print.

author: metrologist
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 08, 2018, 08:55:41 pm
content: Too late. I would just slowly bring my tools home and make appropriate advanced requests for the tools when they are needed.

author: Gregg
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 08, 2018, 08:56:28 pm
content: My personal opinion:One item at a time claim it is broken and you need them to buy a replacement. Pull the fuse, take off a cover and pretend to poke around in it if you have to; management won’t know if it is really broken. Then take your item home (so you can fix it). This will give you a lot of valuable information as to how much they appreciate you.

author: dcarr
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 08, 2018, 09:04:00 pm
content: Middle ground:Tell your supervisor that you've been using your personal equipment to help you do your job at work, but you're concerned about (wear and tear/damage/need it at home/other reason) and so are going to take it home by date X 2-4 weeks in the future. At the same time give him a list of equipment/prices that you think you'll need to do your work. Offer to help with the procurement if needed.The key ideas are to not try to be confrontational or disruptive to the business, to offer a solution, and to provide time for the company to act. If the rent thing is important to you, you could also casually mention it as an option after you've done the above. I'd try really hard to not make it look like you're trying to extort rent out of them.Good luck!

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 08, 2018, 09:43:50 pm
content: Quote from: dcarr on May 08, 2018, 09:04:00 pmYes, it's important to emphasise that you've provided a solution so far. If you suddenly cause a problem or even a disruption of production without them having any recourse, you're just hurting the company and yourself. Companies hate problems. Give them a fair chance to fix things in time.The worst thing you can do is make yourself look bad.

author: trys
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2018, 12:06:36 am
content: If you a contractor, and not an actual employee, then there is little point in asking for "rent" at you call it. The hourly rate reflects the service you provide. It also actually helps regarding the IR35 reg in the UK (if you are in the UK)If you are an actual employee, then, it's a completely different thing. They should provide your equipment I would think? Otherwise we are back to the days of coal miners paying for their own candles down the coal mines?

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2018, 12:14:24 am
content: Quote from: trys on May 09, 2018, 12:06:36 amI don't know where OP hails from, but in the US it seems common for mechanics to bring their own tools into a shop.

author: Pack34
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2018, 01:37:41 am
content: I'm a design engineer and we produce scientific instruments. I initially brought in my equipment because what we had at the office just wan't cutting it. I like to tinker and my personal stuff was substantially higher quality. They had two old TDS 100MHz scopes with the two-tone screens that I couldn't even see. Their soldering irons weren't even suitable for 0603s. They don't even have a logic analyzer. So I just brought in my stuff so I can get the my done.Now that it seems like we're doing better financially I think it's time to transition towards using company own products and I can take my stuff back home and do personal projects or consulting again on the side.

author: ajb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2018, 04:06:33 am
content: Quote from: Pack34 on May 09, 2018, 01:37:41 amIf that's true, then it gives you an entry point for the conversation."Hey boss, now that we're doing better, I think we should look at investing in some equipment upgrades. I didn't mind bringing in my own gear when things were tight, since it helped us <insert accomplishments here>, but keeping my equipment at the office has really put a damper on some personal projects. Plus, my equipment is a bit on the old side, and we can get newer equipment at a very reasonable prince point that will really boost our productivity. I can send you a prioritized list of things that would be most useful, or if we can come up with a dollar amount I can work out how to put that to the best use." For bonus points, plant the idea that 'company's doing better -> we might get new toys' in your coworkers' heads, and get them on board first.

author: Nusa
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2018, 04:17:45 am
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on May 09, 2018, 12:14:24 amAutomotive mechanics, yes, at least for basic hand tools that are likely to vanish if not looked after. When you own them, you keep an eye on them when not locked up. Engineers, not so much. Different environment entirely.

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2018, 04:56:05 am
content: If you are worried about wear and tear, hence wanting to charge "rent", that is indeed a difficult topic to broach, because it is a bit of a stretch. Unless other employees are using your equipment without your consent, then you're the one putting on the wear and tear to increase your own quality of life. I wouldn't start down that road unless I'm actually ok with using a 1950's scope 8 hours a day so I can have my own preferred scope at home collecting dust, lol.If this equipment makes you more productive than your coworkers, and business is booming, maybe you should be seeking a raise, instead.

author: station240
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 09, 2018, 05:32:12 am
content: I'd start with getting them to give you the computers you need, keeping their information on your own PCs is just asking for trouble.

author: Tomorokoshi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2018, 05:39:31 am
content: This is a tricky topic. It's a little like wearing certain kinds of clothes, such as uniforms, suits, special work clothes, etc. Is it business? Personal?Unenlightened management with misplaced priorities will consider the cost of a $3000 oscilloscope and a $1000 power supply to be extravagant when a $500 scope and a $200 power supply are available. Of course, looking at only the most cursory description of the equipment will lead them to that; an attempt to explain the intricacies of why it's a better value to buy the expensive ones results in nothing more than being the cause of annoyance at wasting time researching such things.I started to collect various pieces for my use, which eventually became useful for projects at work. Instead of putting up with the frustration of trying to research and buy what I want, only to be turned down and have a μmanager select some cheap nonsense that misses the point about the necessary features, I brought in my own. I justify it and deal with it based on these points:1. It's my equipment, so I don't have to deal with the calibration lab, having equipment checked out by someone else, not being available, etc.2. Much was repaired by me, so I know it inside and out, the manuals are usually very good and available, and while generally old, the quality is high.3. I get to work with equipment I like for a long part of the day, while home projects are more limited, and I don't get paid at home.4. I have a nice setup at my desk, I can move pieces to other labs as needed, and I can exchange pieces from home when I want.5. I get expertise with equipment and techniques I otherwise would not be able to get.6. I get some amount of productivity increase. This eventually shows up in other ways.7. I make a personal justification of it being a sort of professional development.At several points I have been able to measure or provide capability that simply doesn't exist elsewhere in the company. One way to balance out the costs is to bring this up in whatever type of yearly review there is: "On the Turbo project I measured the encabulation using specialized equipment of my own to help out when resources were limited and the schedule was falling behind. This allowed for the successful development and release of the product." or other such nonsense.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2018, 08:20:11 am
content: Quote from: Tomorokoshi on May 09, 2018, 05:39:31 amOr even better, free ones, like they are getting now!QuoteI have done something similar when I worked at a place which had a rather nice Spectrum Analyser, but no functional Oscilloscope.( Therewasan ancient dead Tek 545B, but it only had a Spec An plugin).It was a nightmare, trying to trace control circuit & power supply problems in some transmitters from the PRC, with just a "Meterman" DMM, which failed completely after a couple of weeks, so out came my old Fluke 77 & 10MHz "El Cheapo" Oscilloscope.Later on, I bought myself a Tek 7613, & brought it in.If the OP wants to take his stuff home, I suggest saying something like this to the company management:-"I have been advised by my Insurance Company that my equipment is not insured for use at work."Management have probably had "run ins" with Insurance companies in the past, & are quite likely to accept them as the bogeyman.

author: NivagSwerdna
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2018, 08:57:11 am
content: Forget the rent idea. It is lame. Ask for a replacement one piece at a time and roll your stuff slowly home or just accept it.You need to be very clear about ownership. I hope they are all marked "Property of OP" otherwise you are looking at trouble ahead. They have probably forgotten they are yours.

author: Pack34
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2018, 12:11:18 pm
content: Quote from: NivagSwerdna on May 09, 2018, 08:57:11 amThis has been a concern as of late since production has been using my microscope quite often for optical alignment and my 7segment meter as part of QC.

author: Macbeth
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2018, 01:01:20 pm
content: Just take all your stuff home and when your boss asks where it is, tell him you are flogging it on ebay because you need the cash.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2018, 01:16:05 pm
content: Quote from: Pack34 on May 09, 2018, 12:11:18 pmYou and your company are both nutsYou for all the reasons others have mentioned, your company for having something un calibrated and non-traceable in their QC chain.Get the stuff home, ASAP.

author: lukier
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 09, 2018, 01:47:06 pm
content: I'm surprised how many people here bring their personal test gear to work and are OK with it. The management must be delighted that their CAPEX is low, all the risks (bad purchases, repairs, calibration costs etc) are shifted onto the employees, time to increase the executives' bonuses!Unless you are a contractor or it is a startup in which you have substantial amount of shares (or similar skin in the game) then don't do it.The point of doing business is to take risks, invest in people and equipment, in hope to reap the rewards if it works out. Otherwise reminds me of (quite common nowadays) anti-pattern of privatizing profits and nationalizing losses. If the business owner cannot afford to pay the taxes, various bills, salaries or buy the equipment then it was possibly a shitty business model to start with.

author: metrologist
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2018, 03:00:31 pm
content: Quote from: Pack34 on May 09, 2018, 12:11:18 pmIt's even later than I thought. Now you risk being the cause of a productivity issue if you take the equipment. You might as well just consider it their equipment and a lesson learned. I no envy you...

author: JohnnyMalaria
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2018, 03:53:42 pm
content: Quote from: dcarr on May 08, 2018, 09:04:00 pmI was in a similar situation and used a similar approach. The difference for me is that I simply said to my boss in the corridor one day that I'd been using my own equipment and, now that I had proven the value of my work, it was time for the company to stump up the money. He agreed. The work itself was one of my "what the hell is John doing locked away in that room all day?" It turned out to be very useful. I said that I could get something similar for $1000 and he was okay with that. The company allowed you to spend up to $1500 without having to budget for it. Of course, I made sure the new equipment was very similar to my own and used the same accessories such as rechargeable batteries, sensor cleaners etc etc. I was the only one who knew how to use it so it didn't create an issue if I used some of those accessories for my own use once in a while. I didn't buy anything that the company didn't need, though.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2018, 04:39:33 pm
content: Quote from: Macbeth on May 09, 2018, 01:01:20 pmI assume you're just poking the beehive to see what happens. There's no way OP ends up a winner if he jeopardises production even remotely and rightfully so. You only escalate matters when civil discussions have failed to produce a desired result and even then you need to expect to lose out.

author: Bassman59
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2018, 06:37:46 pm
content: Quote from: Pack34 on May 08, 2018, 08:01:21 pmTake your stuff home. Tell the boss that you need proper equipment to do your job. This isn't personal, this is business.

author: Macbeth
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2018, 06:44:18 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on May 09, 2018, 04:39:33 pmOk I am being facetious, but I'm making a point OP could also bring to the attention of his employers. Instead of renting, etc. He can just tell them he want's to flog his stuff because he needs the cash (Hey, maybe I need a payrise? Coke and hookers 'aint cheap).Of course he can give them first dibs so they can buy his tools outright. I imagine he would get a much better deal from his employer than ebay when they realise it will cost them more to be without tools relied on by production for even a day. He could name his price. It's ludicrous that it's got to the point that other employees rely on his personal stuff.

author: GreyWoolfe
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 09, 2018, 08:45:22 pm
content: Quote from: Pack34 on May 09, 2018, 12:11:18 pmThere is a general toolbox in the garage for general household stuff that I allow the family to use. In my office is another toolbox with all the precision tools that I use for work and hobby. That box stays locked as I don't want my family to touch them. I don't like to borrow tools because I won't lend them. If I need something, I will buy it. If I can't afford it, I will figure out another way. I have had stuff broken/gone missing in the past by lending. That's why I refuse to lend. You really are asking for trouble letting co-workers use your equipment. If they break/damage/steal, what recourse do you have? None, I would bet from the employees and probably none from your company. The party line might be, "You shouldn't have been using your tools at work."

author: Macbeth
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2018, 09:17:56 pm
content: Quote from: GreyWoolfe on May 09, 2018, 08:45:22 pmI remember when one of my colleagues brought in one of those Microsoft Natural Ergonomic keyboards into work to replace the boring Compaq PS/2 jobbie we all had to use. Fair do's. But then an Elven Safety person pointed out that it had not been PAT tested. It also came from a box in his bedroom and not an official procurement channel.He had to remove the keyboard at once and got back to a shitty generic and then was advised to go through the proper channels and request a Microsoft Ergonomic keyboard for his personal disability purposes via HR.It took a few months, and no doubt cost the company thousands, but he got a nice new official one in the end. He didn't even ask for the HR & legal depts. to do this at all, he was happy to say "fuck it" and work with the crap keyboards instead. The Elf forced the issue.Blue Chip insurance company. No wonder premiums are so expensive.

author: Tomorokoshi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2018, 09:30:19 pm
content: Quote from: Macbeth on May 09, 2018, 09:17:56 pmPeopleware: Productive Projects and Teamsby Tom DeMarco Tim Lister, Chapter 7: "The Furniture Police".

author: Electro Detective
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2018, 11:42:05 pm
content: Forget about any rent expectations mate, it's too far beyond that, been thereIn these situations you're up against the wall and forced to bend it a bitTell them you are taking the tools home on the weekend to get them ready to sell the lot off as a bundle on Ebay,as they are getting old/tired and you want to upgrade to the latest gear with the money from the sale, and get a loan on the rest.If they aren't cheapass freeloaders they SHOULD either ask you what price you're happy accepting to buy the gearOR ask if they can join the party on the new gear purchaseOR they'll thank you for the use of yours, and plan to buy their own asapDONE !If they don't go either way and expect you to rock up 'eventually' with new gear (yes, some of them are religiously assholistic) just make sure 'eventually' stretches out to StarDate: 3018 or later...and or BS that the old gear hasn't sold yetalthough some offers are on the tableEither way, you've put options on the table for them to nibble on,you get to pull your gear out of there gracefully,and no one dares b!tch about itUnfortunately in MANY of these lousy situations when dealing with selfish inconsiderate smartass serial cheapskate business people,when you sense/KNOW that 'Tactful' won't work...'Tacky' just might

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 10, 2018, 12:20:50 am
content: Quote from: wilfred on May 09, 2018, 08:42:15 amExactly, Insurance problems, just as I suggested!

author: HwAoRrDk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 10, 2018, 12:25:58 am
content: I will never use personal tools and equipment in the workplace if I can help it. If I really, really need to, they stay within my sight and I take them away with me when I'm done with them.In a previous job, I made the mistake once of bringing a personal toolbox to the office to work on some piece of equipment. I was lazy and didn't take it back home straight away (it was heavy, and it was a fair distance to carry to my car), and because it was around I kept finding it convenient for occasional odd jobs to keep the tools at the office.Then a new employee started and, because he was unaware (but also an idiot), thought the tools belonged to the company. Unbeknownst to me, he'd borrowed them on several occasions and misused some of them, damaging them in the process. And it wasn't until I went to use my tools once more and actually found some of them missing that I became aware of all this. After much hunting, some of them turned up scattered around the building in random places, but others were never seen again. He just fobbed me off with a "sorry mate, didn't know they were yours" and "I don't know what happened to the missing ones".After that I finally realised why my father used to mark his initials on all his tools.If I were in the OP's position, where equipment is being used by other employees for production and testing, then those particular pieces I would consider past the point of no return. I would talk to management and make them aware that the equipment is yours and that you would now actually like to use it elsewhere, but that you are concerned it would be detrimental to the company if you did so. I would then, as others have suggested, offer the company a deal: they can buy the equipment from you for a reasonable market rate, and you will buy new stuff to replace it.As for anything else that only OP solely uses, I'd say it's fair game to just up and take it home.Quote from: Macbeth on May 09, 2018, 09:17:56 pmHow did they justify that excuse? Isn't PAT testing only for mains-powered equipment? I mean, youcouldplug a keyboard into the mains, but it wouldn't be much use for typing afterwards...

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 10, 2018, 01:09:41 am
content: Quote from: tggzzz on May 09, 2018, 01:16:05 pmThis ^.QC reports customer has issues with accuracy of our products.Management; nah Pack34's gear is top notch..............Seriously request apropermeeting with management and outline some of the offered scenarios and why it's not appropriate that you supply a large range of gear for their benefit. It's yours FFS !Do they drive a better car than you ? Own boats or holiday homes ?For the cost of a couple of weeks of your salary (prob just one week of theirs) the company can own this gear outright themselves as they should.

author: Pack34
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 10, 2018, 02:40:21 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on May 10, 2018, 01:09:41 amI do have them calibrated once a year. I used to do consulting on the side before my demands at the office grew.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 10, 2018, 04:38:34 pm
content: Quote from: Macbeth on May 09, 2018, 09:17:56 pmThe correct course of action would be to tell the Elven Safety person to read the PAT handbook. Only 230VAC powered equipment needs a PAT. A keyboard runs off 5V, so there's no need for PAT.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 10, 2018, 04:45:36 pm
content: The only thing worse than a safety nanny is a righteous safety nanny that's utterly wrong.

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 12, 2018, 03:05:17 am
content: How about this:Hey boss, starting early next month and for a month or so, stuff you need me to do will slow down by a lot. I need to send my equipment in for calibration and regular service, so I wont have the equipment I need to get the job done. By the way, while I am on that topic,since my personal stuff are used only here for this business, shouldn't you at least reimburse me for the maintenance? Also, I will need an upgrades that I wont need personally, but I like to upgrade to get the work here done faster...That may get a soft way to get conversation going

author: Pack34
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 13, 2018, 01:53:21 am
content: Quote from: Rick Law on May 12, 2018, 03:05:17 amI think this might be the way to go. Especially after my last expense report was almost $8000 USD. Four months of board orders, components, etc.

author: julianhigginson
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 13, 2018, 03:00:28 am
content: I have historically brought in equipment as an employee, but really got sick of it at one place, where the people running it were total tightarses, and I was schlepping gear back and forth every day because I refused to leave it there... (Because the other cheaper stuff I did leave there, like my monitor, got used by other people when I wasn't around, and left in a way other than I'd left it multiple times... Someone even "borrowed" the cable once, lost it, then tried to replace it weeks later with some crap off eBay that wasn't even the same cable!)Nowadays I'm a contractor/consultant.. and when needed I do bring gear onsite, but still resent it in subcontractor situations where the company I am doing work for should actually have basic gear...