How expensive is it to make your own PCB at home ? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: lordvader88
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 26, 2019, 02:51:43 am
content: I'm talking of small PCBs, like a few inches ^2, where u mask the PCB and do stuff like put it in copper solution, that old type. I bet there's kits, and then there's good old ebay, part by part.I'm just wondering an esitmate, for if u buy all the main stuff u need to get started at home.Thanks

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 26, 2019, 03:03:19 am
content: All you really need is ferric chloridehttps://www.amazon.com/MG-Chemicals-Chloride-Etchant-Solution/dp/B008UH3SAE/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1551149948&sr=8-3and copper clad PCB laminatehttps://www.amazon.com/Double-Sided-Copper-Laminate-Circuit/dp/B01LZVMIBN/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&qid=1551149977&sr=8-5Plus a laser printer or nail polish or shrapies to transfer the artwork.And a micro drill to make holes if your design has any. There are some pretty cheap options on eBay. Like thishttps://www.ebay.com/itm/Mini-Micro-Small-Electric-Aluminum-Hand-Portable-Handheld-Drill-Bits-0-8-1-5mm/381008422307They are pretty crap, but work in a pinch.That being said, unless you can't wait a week for your boards, it is so not worth it.

author: digsys
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 26, 2019, 03:34:58 am
content: In the "real old days", that's all we had :-) .. I knew many people set up to make their own pcbs, including myself. There should still be kits out there, if you'reonly talking a few p/months / less? It isn't that hard (we used ammonium persulphate instead of ferric chloride though), but note -Double sided is tricky, plate through / through pins are even trickier. We used photo negs, so alignment accuracy was very good, down to 8thou tracks / gaps,sometimes less. Do you have a pic of something similar to what you want to make?

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 26, 2019, 03:36:56 am
content: Quote from: digsys on February 26, 2019, 03:34:58 amAnd I'm very glad those times are over. We made progress, hooray. Now my clothes are not going to be stained forever with FeCl.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 26, 2019, 03:37:53 am
content: very cheap if you are patient and tune your process to make sure it works right. If you just go out willy nilly and follow instructions without doing scaled tests its easy to waste 100$ of PCB's in a day with various problems (alignment, photoresist development, temperature, bad photodeveloper that aged, light source malfunctioning, misbehaving printers, etc..It's alot of steps that youNEEDto getrightwithNO optionto correct unless your going to fuck around under a magnifier/microscope scraping shit for hours.Otherwise very cheap if you make the tools.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 26, 2019, 03:39:03 am
content: Quote from: ataradov on February 26, 2019, 03:36:56 amthis is part of process control. Its actually NOT trivial to even do things like baking or cooking without making a mess, grease splatter, flour everywhere, etc.PCB etching and chemical work requires ALOT of planning and mindfulness and stupid equipment that you think is unnecessary. Very fun if you do it right but also can be a pain, as I learned with making etching tanks.Hell I have trouble opening a can of paint sometimes. Usually because I am too fucking lazy and unequipped and think I can wing it (i.e. open a can of paint on a table rather then get a big tupperware to do it in).Mindfulness is hard.. we act like a bunch of primitive pete's around chemicals for some reason.. because it looks so easy.. not even pouring a big container is easy and everything has a procedure you need to learn to be efficient..I call it 'splatter and fume control engineering' lol.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 26, 2019, 03:43:34 am
content: Good way to 'learn' how to do this stuff right is to have a absolutely clean work surface and tools that you polish/restore when doing this stuff, so you immediately notice when you spill acid or stain something etc. After you have to clean restore etc rusty crap 10 times your gonna learn some good habits. Having 'crappy' disposable tools actually hurts you here. And hazard wearing white. You will know when you did a good job and it keeps your frosty.I am somewhere in between with this stuff so long I am not frustrated. Some people are completely atrocious when working with chemicals. You end up with stuff on the ceiling.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 26, 2019, 03:44:45 am
content: Sure, you can do all of that. Or just pay $5 PCBWay and get boards with the quality you will never get at home.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 26, 2019, 03:45:23 am
content: Quote from: ataradov on February 26, 2019, 03:44:45 amIt's good skills to build up when you work with paint, do chemistry, etc. Shop skills/dexterity/mindfulness/planning.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 26, 2019, 03:50:01 am
content: Helpful tips: Use funnels, have empty easy to wash containers on hand to hold dirty funnels, tools, etc. Leave a bit of water on the bottom. Get a squirt bottle with water in it. Have paper towels. Have paper towels that are already unraveled and ready to pick up. Have a little tray to hold stuff over as you move it around to contain dripping. Use white when possible so you notice drips (i.e. don't have a dirty ass wooden table that hides ferric chloride stains that you rest on and get on your clothing etc). Build stuff much bigger then you think is necessary to contain bubbling, drips, fumes, etc. Work outside if possible. Have gloves on hand. Don't be greedy with gloves. Always throw stuff in approved container. Have bags ready to transfer waste into (check them for air tightness before you load it with soaked crap). Get a nice BIG oversized trash can. Don't lean on tables.Wipe everything down when you are done and wash any rags out and then wash the clothing you used when working with chemistry when you are done (yes this means running the washing machine when its almost empty sometimes).Learn to pour containers properly or get transfer equipment (transfer pipet etc). Don't do this when you are tired because its stressful to keep all this stuff in your head while you are working.#1 rule I learned is to IMMEDIATELY clean up even the smallest drops even if its inefficient as fuck in terms of paper towels. This is the #1 thing that gets me, thinking I will clean up AFTER I am done and that I can avoid the problem until then to be more efficient.

author: Alex Eisenhut
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 26, 2019, 04:13:28 am
content: Quote from: ataradov on February 26, 2019, 03:36:56 amStained? IME it just ate through my clothes. It did however make great stains in my bathroom sink.For sure pencil me in the "send out files" camp. I'm pretty happy I don't have to etch at home. I also use "surfboards" and copper-clad for dead bug lash ups.

author: sleemanj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 26, 2019, 04:53:21 am
content: I assume you have aleadya printeretch resisting pen (sharpie at least)suitable plastic containercommon solvents for cleaning (methylated spirits, acetone, whatever your particular preference)washing soda (sodium carbonate) based laundry powder (for developing)a dremel or at least power drill capable of holding bits down to 0.8mma couple sheets of glass and a way of clamping the PCB and artwork to itAs for consumables then assume a single sided 7x10cm PCB, personally I seldom make anything biggerCopper Clad Board - $1.25Photoresist Film - $0.50Tracing Paper - $0.20Drill bit (let's say 1 HSS one used per board and discarded) $0.50Etchant - depends on your desire, but lets say $0.10 "used" per board (one-off cost of say $10-20 depending on what you use)That's about it, so consumable cost of say $2.50-$3 per PCB (USD) at the most.Startup cost if you had NOTHING, maybe $40-100 depending on how cheap you find a used suitably working printer (around here, about $1 will get you one without much trouble but your area might not be so flush with people upgrading old printers)The days of pre-sensitised boards are over IMO, dry film resist or toner transfer is the way to go, if you mess up, strip, reapply, start again no need to waste a whole PCB because you screwed up the developing.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 26, 2019, 05:10:17 am
content: I make my own boards frequently, it costs almost nothing. I do toner transfer from a laser printer onto small pieces cut from a sheet of press n peel film. I etch with hydrochloric acid mixed with some hydrogen peroxide, eventually it turns to cupric chloride that I recharge by adding a bit of fresh peroxide now and then. The hardest part was making a good drill, you need very little slop to avoid breaking the small carbide bits. I built one using a precision slide on a quickly thrown together frame made of 2x4 pieces and a piece of 3/8" plywood. It was meant to be temporary but that was about 10 years ago and I'm still using it. If you do all SMT parts you can skip the drill.

author: mrpackethead
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 26, 2019, 05:37:33 am
content: you can make your own pcbs, and you can live in a cave if you really want to and hunt with sharpend stones.What kind of dinosaurs live in your parts?

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 26, 2019, 05:42:15 am
content: Quote from: Alex Eisenhut on February 26, 2019, 04:13:28 amdilute it more before you dispose of it in a sink

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 26, 2019, 05:46:31 am
content: Quote from: sleemanj on February 26, 2019, 04:53:21 amAwfully pessimistic about the drill bit!

author: sleemanj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 26, 2019, 07:01:26 am
content: Quote from: coppercone2 on February 26, 2019, 05:46:31 amIf you're drilling phenolic board HSS will last longer, but FR-4 is pretty tough on them, 50-100 holes which is a fairly typical number for a PCB of that size and it's best to put another one in I find. Blunt bits are prone to ripping off pads.Carbide bits of course solve this problem, but are more fragile (and a little more expensive) - that said, don't believe people who say you can't drill with a hand-held dremel type tool and carbide bits, it's not really a problem if you've got a relatively steady hand, at least for 0.8mm.

author: mrpackethead
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 26, 2019, 09:38:43 am
content: ever tryed drilling with a .2mm bit.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 26, 2019, 10:07:32 am
content: Quote from: sleemanj on February 26, 2019, 07:01:26 amharbor fright sold a carbide bit pack for 1 dollar with 8 bits in it, 2 of each size.you can still drill in fr4 when their broke lol, it still cuts ityou can also make the pad hole smaller, for a prototype it does not matter how good the solder adhesion is. the joint will be slightly weaker and slightly higher resistance but its cheaper. Or you can make the pads ovals that adhere better and are less prone to ripping off when you use janky tools. Like long rectangles even. That extend way under the chip. If its big you can lift it partially and it will still work fine and be strong.Gotta keep costs down. You can also peck your holes with a good drill and then use a piece of shit to do the boring if you don't mind the time.Also if you mix tiny amounts of epoxy up with a needle it can be economical to fix pads, just put a big gob of solder on top to act as a reinforcement, maybe stick some fine copper wire in there too to act like 'rebars'. A little manicure work can be worth the 50 cents and you have to use epoxy remains anyway if you have epoxy your undoubtedly throwing it out. Smells a little when soldered.If you have fine snips (i recommend the fiskars spring loaded ones for gardening that are the smallest and nitride coated) and patience you can even make fairly small traces and glue them down if you are good with tweezers etc to fix botched etches.I don't know if you can do it with something like a MSOP. Maybe. Might be worth working under microscope actually. I never developed a process for doing it though..

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 26, 2019, 10:20:10 am
content: I also wonder if you can resharpen those HSS or even carbide tiny drill bits some how if you have a dremel drill stand that can adjust angle and a fine diamond wheel. Like a 200+ grit diamond wheel. My proxxon dremel drill stand is actually pretty precise, I wonder if you can make some kind of crude resharpener out of it to get some ROI.Wish me luck I am going to investigate resharpening less then few MM drill bits. Probably end with foaming at the mouth..https://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/general/how-do-you-sharpen-tiny-drills-153602/index2.htmlmight be doable. but seems nasty. but so is ordering stuff.https://www.cnczone.com/forums/toolgrinding-toolgrinding-machines/693-sharpening-small-bits.html

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 26, 2019, 01:10:05 pm
content: Quote from: lordvader88 on February 26, 2019, 02:51:43 amCount on a couple of hundred to get a decent setup. You can probably do it cheaper but let's face it: having PCBs made in China is so cheap nowadays that it really isn't worth the effort. If you spend the time making your own PCB at paid work at a grocery store then you make more money than the PCBs will cost you.

author: asmi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 26, 2019, 02:13:43 pm
content: Quote from: coppercone2 on February 26, 2019, 03:45:23 amMake a board with a bunch of 0201 parts and try placing them all - this way you will train your patience and fine motor skills much more effectively.

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 26, 2019, 03:05:11 pm
content: Quote from: coppercone2 on February 26, 2019, 03:50:01 amFor occasional boards you can save a lot of mess and hassle by keeping the Ferric Chloride (for longevity) in a rectangular plastic food container (the ones with the O-ring in the lid are best) AND INDELIBLY WARNING LABELLED. Put it in a sink with an inch or so of water already in the bottom - hot if you want to accelerate the etching. Remove the lid after it's in the water. Agitate as normal while etching (don't set up too many waves in the sink).When the board is etched, put the lid back on the container, still in the sink, and rinse everything thoroughly before letting the water out. Then repeat and dry. Having water already in the sink tends to dilute any splashes and the FeCl never has to leave the container. You can keep it going for years of infrequent use.Having said all that, there's very little that you can't do with isolated pad matrix board, including mixed though-hole and SMD discreet / passives (and ICs with adapter breakout boards).

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 26, 2019, 05:56:20 pm
content: There's always some idiot who has to come in to these threads and suggest that everyone making their own boards is stuck in ancient history.Personally I think it's a fun project in itself, and once you get the process refined you can make some pretty nice boards. I do it whenever I want to make a one-off project, I have my finished board in hours rather than weeks and the cost is pennies.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 26, 2019, 07:54:13 pm
content: I swear sometimes I get the feeling when you write about PCB manufacturing you get responses that should begin by "This post is sponsored by (insert PCB manufacturer here).Or its one of those people that manages to get tomato sauce on the ceiling opening a can.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 26, 2019, 07:58:12 pm
content: A fun project too if you make your own mask is to make a burnisher/heavy roller for adhering film. With a nice handle and all.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 26, 2019, 08:49:27 pm
content: Quote from: coppercone2 on February 26, 2019, 07:54:13 pmI have a whole UV exposure box and spray etcher setup ready to. Lots of copper clad material on hand too but during the past 2 years I might have used it once. First of all it isn't easy to get the exposure right due to differences in the resist layer between various boards. You need high quality pre-sensitised boards to get consistent results. Etching is quick in the simple FeCl spray etcher I have (rotating tube, not a pressure pump). But then the board will need cleaning, drilling and a protective coating. Another factor is that for SMT components the traces and pads get tiny so your whole process gets very sensitive to proper exposure, development and etching of the board. I'm not saying that it is impossible but for the amount of time and equipment it takes to get really good boards you can also have boards made which are double sided with soldermask, silk screen, plated through holes, routed in an odd shape, etc.Edit: What I want to add is the following: I have been etching boards for over 30 years now. Back then having PCBs made was very expensive. Even for companies. Part of my electronics education is etching your own boards. Back then it was economic for companies to have their own etch setup. I would have given my left nut to have access to cheap professional PCB manufacturing like you have today.

author: M4trix
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 26, 2019, 09:41:26 pm
content: Quote from: coppercone2 on February 26, 2019, 07:54:13 pmPCB manufacturers have their marketing agents among us. Their job is to discourage you from making boards at home.Their typical discouraging arguments are... not worth the effort, too messy, too expensive, toxic chemicals and fumes, it will stain this and that, you can't make it look professional.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 26, 2019, 10:03:31 pm
content: Valid points, and I do send off for professional boards more often than I etch them myself, but I do still etch them myself. Sometimes because I'm in a hurry and sometimes because I just feel like making something. I can go buy a pie at the supermarket too but I often prefer to make one at home.If I just went out and bought everything instead of building it myself I wouldn't have much of a hobby left.

author: mrpackethead
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2019, 12:46:02 am
content: Quote from: james_s on February 26, 2019, 10:03:31 pmYou can very fesiably make a much better pie at home than in the supermarket, often for considerably less money than the one at the supermarket.The same is not true for pcbsWonder what a Pie made of FR4 tastes like. Maybe some solder paste sauce

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2019, 06:18:19 am
content: No one asked this question, but I still feel compelled to list what I have spent.1. Laser printer $100 (each)2. Laminator $353. Heat gun $25.00-50.00 (each)4. Etch tank $100.00 of plexiglass and nylon bolts and silicone and plywood.5. 5 gallon compressed air tank for running the bubbler $25.006. regulator to reduce the air pressure $20 (each)7. Tubing, bubble wall wand, various bits and fittings $30-$50?8. Acid and peroxide to make cupric chloride $25?9. Turkey baster 7.0010. Air compressor. I didn't buy it for the tank, but I'll list it anyway. $100.0011. 150-200 sheets of transfer paper in 10 years. $150-20012. Plastic cutting board and stainless steel wool. w/eThere is some maintenance. Probably a gallon of acid every 4 years. Tubing wears out and cracks, occasionally. I had to replace the regulator once, when I was too lazy to disconnect it from the tank and the fumes eventually corroded the innards. I have had to take apart and clean the regulator a few times - aside from corrosion, I had the connector plugged up by carpenter bees, once. And the innards clogged by a spider nest, once. I keep the connector taped over, now. I am on my third laser printer since I started, ten years ago. But that has nothing to do with making PCBs. I'm on my fourth heat gun. After my first cheapo died, I bought a PC. It lasted like 6 months. Then a Dewalt. It didn't do much better. Then another cheapo, and it has gone for maybe 4 years, now.I had to clean up etchant spills probably 4-5 times before I got the memo: don't turn the air too high, because the height of the foam head changes depending on the state of the etchant. Cleaning ferric stains from concrete is easier than cleaning cupric. With a ferric stain, you just pour some muriatic, brush it around, then rinse. With cupric you have to pour muriatic then add peroxide over that.The biggest surprise is the laminator. I thought it would die by now. I keep it near the tank, outdoors, so I expected it to die, eventually. It is going on 10 years.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2019, 05:53:03 am
content: You've spent quite a bit more than I did. I don't count the cost of the laser printer because I didn't buy the printer for making PCBs, I needed a printer anyway. I have a heat gun but I've never used it for PCB making so I don't count that. My etching tank cost less than $5, I made it with scraps of acrylic I bought at Tap Plastics, before that I used a glass cake pan. For the bubbler I use a fish tank air pump I got for $3 at a thrift store. I think the tubing was under $5 at a hardware store and for the bubble wand I used a piece of acrylic tubing also from Tap Plastics, bent it into an L shape and drilled a bunch of tiny holes in it. A gallon of acid was under $10, peroxide was under $5. Haven't used a turkey baster for anything, I have an air compressor but I've never used it for making PCBs, and 25 sheets of Press n Peel lasted me almost 7 years. I cut up pieces that are only as big as I need, a full sheet is good for dozens of small boards.Maintenance? Essentially zero, I still have more than half the bottle of acid I bought almost 10 years ago. I add a capful of peroxide now and then to recharge the etchant, I think I'm on my second bottle of that.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2019, 06:03:38 am
content: The amount of money you can spend is obviously on a sliding scale according to your needs, with fun at one end of the scale and professional results at the other.When I was a teenager I simply bought an etch resist pen and some ferric chloride from a local electronics store. I found copper clad board as discarded waste in a dumpster (I was lucky). I drew out my traces on the board with the pen and etched it in a plastic tray. I drilled the holes with a hand drill (carefully).Sure, the results weren't pretty, but the cost was pocket money. And it was fun.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2019, 06:05:55 am
content: I've gotten some pretty nice results, I routinely use 0603 parts on home etched boards, I've successfully used ICs with 0.5mm lead pitch although that's pushing the limits of the process. It's less about money spent and more a matter of attention to detail and initial effort spent dialing everything in. Once you get a process set up that works for you it's a matter of being consistent.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2019, 06:37:19 am
content: Quote from: james_s on February 28, 2019, 06:05:55 amIsn't there an issue with bridging here? Professional boards have solder mask that repel the solder and allow you to do drag soldering. I can see this being more cumbersome with no solder mask to help.

author: sleemanj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2019, 06:55:49 am
content: Quote from: IanB on February 28, 2019, 06:37:19 amOften enough the soldermask is pulled back on such parts by cheap board houses anyway.Yes it makes hand soldering more difficult, but it's not impossible.

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2019, 07:58:15 am
content: If I include my first 3 tanks, add another pile of plexiglass to my expenditures. Plus an Igloo cooler, lol. And not one but 2 fish tank bubblers I tried before going to compressed air. I made some mistakes in the first two tries of making a plexiglass tank, trying to do solvent welding. The guys that make 200 gallon fish tanks are evidently much better at it than I am. I couldn't hold a liter of acid for more than a month before springing a leak.QuoteYeah, I cut them up, too. That's how much PCB I have made. In fact, I think I shorted a 100 pack of PnP in my estimate. But it's hard to remember. I have had some unique needs, in the past. I switched to Pulsar from the moment I tried it. I keep some pre-cut 3x4" pieces taped to printer paper in a 3 ring folder, ready to feed into the printer. But I've done boards up to 5.5 x 8.5".Admittedly, I tried to make toner transfer work for some apps where I really shouldn't have. And I caused myself more problems than I solved. But I was making toner transfer PCB before I even know how to make a Gerber. I used a lot of paper and made a lot of boards that I had designed in paint or in ExpressPCB. Particularly early on when I still had some gremlins, I had some misguided efforts. When you go from one perfect sample to making a half a dozen panels at a time, you find out how reliable your process really is. But I've had plenty more apps where toner transfer is perfect, and gremlins are no more.QuoteEZ solder mask with just a sharpie:()The black isn't sharpie. It's oxidized copper. Using a sharpie, you can color in the pads then oxidize the rest of the board. Then the solder won't wick out of the pad area. It holds up to a few careful reworks, maybe, but it eventually dissolves with enough flux and heat. This is a huge SO chip. Drag soldered. But I've done quite a lot of SSOP. I've done down to MSOP and QFN, too. I consider any trace down to 8 mil to be no special care. One shot one kill. One of the boards I made needed all 8 mil traces. Albeit, it was (very!) small, but I made a 4x6" panel of it with zero defects. That one was just a plug-in daughter board for a couple of small EEPROMS, but to keep it completely single-sided took some tight routing. The board in the linked pic is mostly 12/12 or thereabouts from very early in my learning curve.It's really so so very easy to get 100% perfect, consistent results every single time. There is just no way UV is better or easier down to 8 mil, if you use the right tools and strategy with toner transfer. Honestly, if you go by what tutorials are available, today? It is going to waste a lot of your time. The info today is actually worse than it was 10 years ago. The websites I learned from 10 years ago are all gone. And to sort through the pile of crap videos out there and somehow figure out what is good and what is bad, there's no way to know. And it will waste a lot of time.UV is probably the best way to go if you want good results right away. And if you want a more professional quality soldermask.

author: TheNewLab
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2019, 09:12:46 am
content: Post 27 )(Bronto48) on that sharpening tiny drills bits comment:"I read the original thread question as: how are tiny drill bits sharpened at the drill bit factory??? What kind of machines exist for that job, when you have to do it in a production environment?? Anybody out there seen that machinery/operation?I know, I know, some wag is going to suggest a room full of minature machinists with tiny grinders......"er, fromhttps://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/general/how-do-you-sharpen-tiny-drills-153602/index2.html

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2019, 05:49:59 pm
content: There is a commercial (maybe german knife manufacturer) that shows a zoom into one of those wooden knife racks with a built in sharpener and inside you got some kind of crazy construction equipment and little constructune workers operating a crane with a grinder on it to sharpen the blade. It looked like what you would imagine a starship drydock to look like lol

author: Richard Crowley
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2019, 06:11:57 pm
content: Quote from: M4trix on February 26, 2019, 09:41:26 pmIf I thought I could get PC boards from China to Oregon in a week, I would try it.But my experience with shipping from China is measured in months (plural) not weeks.Even though I am in the rather older part of the BB generation, perhaps I have the attention span of someone who grew up on Sesame Street.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2019, 06:26:16 pm
content: Quote from: Richard Crowley on February 28, 2019, 06:11:57 pmI routinely get boards within a week. Just use UPS/FedEx for shipping.Even though USPS I get boards from PCBWay in 2 weeks including manufacturing.

author: Bassman59
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2019, 06:45:23 pm
content: Quote from: ataradov on February 28, 2019, 06:26:16 pmSeeed has been taking about three weeks from order placement until the boards land on my desk.Oh, and I can't make four-layer boards at home, so the whole point is moot.

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2019, 08:06:11 pm
content: Before I ordered a board for which 1 or 2 days actually mattered, I went back through through my purchase history to see which shipping option is actually faster. To me it was DHL, preferred. At least over the last few years, what I found is Fedex IE takes 5 days. DHL 3 days over a weekend, or 2 days if neither Sunday or Saturday is involved. Dunno... maybe it takes 4 if the stars align, but I didn't find any of those in my sample size.Some PCB manufacturer can make a board in one day, but it really depends on how busy the factory is at any given time. I've ordered a board on a Friday and had it in my hands Tuesday morning, DHL.Your actual location in the US can matter, of course. I've lived places where the local UPS service was atrocious. I am in a big city, now. For me DHL is one day over the pacific. One day to clear customs, tops. At my door at 10:30 to 10:40 like clockwork. I could meet the driver at the door with a cup of coffee. I'm not even sure how that can happen in just 2 days, but it can.I got an average of between 2-3 weeks with seeed. But it has been more than a few years since I used them.I wouldn't have guessed Oregon is necessarily that bad. The package spends a day on a boat crossing the Pacific before clearing customs in California. I guess the local delivery might add some days if you're out in the boonies, so to speak.

author: Richard Crowley
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2019, 08:39:25 pm
content: Quote from: KL27x on February 28, 2019, 08:06:11 pmIf the west hills didn't block the view, I could see the port from here.Portland Oregon used to be a major west-coast port.But the longshoremen have literally shut down the port.Of course they still get paid for doing nothing. Nice "work" if you can get it.Everything comes in on a truck from Seattle or San Francisco. Or by air.Ref:https://www.oregonlive.com/business/2016/01/portland_longshore_workers_pai.html

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2019, 10:33:00 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on February 28, 2019, 06:37:19 amThat doesn't make any difference.

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 01, 2019, 12:27:29 am
content: ^I agree, with clarification.You don't actually need soldermask between the pins to "repel" solder. This is a common misconception. At a certain fineness of pitch, commercial manufacturers do not put soldermask between pins/pads, anyway. In my experience with FPC, the manufacturer never puts soldermask between the pads of an IC despite you put them in your Gerber. And this makes no difference to drag soldering, at all.There is a difference in trying to drag solder boards that completely lack soldermask, though. The solder wicks down the traces. Depending on your traces and plane layout, you can end up with bridges because of this. The bridges won't be between pins/pads of the IC. It will be between traces/planes. Even if you don't get bridges, these lumps and bumps make inspection more difficult.Drag soldering is also much less efficient when you only solder 3 pins at a time before the bead spreads over your board.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 01, 2019, 04:53:29 am
content: I stick a piece of polyamide tape across the traces near the IC pins to form a temporary solder mask. This usually does a good job preventing the solder from wicking down the traces.