getting something patented - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 20, 2010, 03:33:37 pm
content: Right, it's a long time off but I'm working on something and well, I think it is pretty unique, fairly niche and it may be worth something to me in the long run. Say I wanted to get it patented, what does it involve ? how much does it cost.Basically I don't want people copying my design

author: tecman
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2010, 03:53:02 pm
content: In the US, MINIMUM, I repeat MINIMUM, $ 5K and 2 years. More like $ 10K and 4 years average.Paul

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 20, 2010, 03:56:29 pm
content: oh, looks like I best take the risk

author: Rhythmtech
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2010, 04:21:21 pm
content: To apply on your own is not super expensive according to thepatent officein the US. However, from what I can gather the costs of legally defending a patent in the US generally null the ability of an independent small inventor to breach most of the already established markets. Unless they are able to do so fast enough to make enough money to be able to defend the patent. Other opportunities would be niche applications where the market is not of large enough to get attention from any company with muscle. Something else to consider is that knowing how to build something doesn't mean you'll know how to license it. There is no law enforcement agency actively seeking out patent infringement, so that would also fall on your shoulders. If you fail to defend your patent you basically lose it, and have just freely granted the world access to you invention. Last but not least, when you patent an invention you are also publicly disclosing how the device works in great detail, which could just give other inventors a good idea to do the same thing a different way and if they are better at marketing you may get nothing from your patent (Microsoft's tactics ring any bells?).

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 20, 2010, 04:28:11 pm
content: Quote from: Rhythmtech on August 20, 2010, 04:21:21 pmAll very true, is is a small market so I suppose no one is going to actually go to the trouble of duplicating it

author: TopherTheME
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2010, 05:02:56 pm
content: Quote from: tecman on August 20, 2010, 03:53:02 pmI'd even call that conservative.One thing to keep in mind, in the states a patentdoes not preventpeople from copying and selling your design. A patent simply gives you therightto take someone to court for patent infringement.

author: Rhythmtech
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2010, 05:05:04 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on August 20, 2010, 04:28:11 pmAre you licensing it then? If you have no one to protect it from really, why patent it?

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2010, 05:12:36 pm
content: IMO patents are mostly a waste of time. More so in niche markets. If people want to copy it they will.Instead spend the money , time and effort you'd have spent on patents on developing iit, making it, selling it, and then either get out when the copies turn up or keep ahead of the competition on features, service or whatever can give you added value.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 20, 2010, 05:37:14 pm
content: Quote from: Rhythmtech on August 20, 2010, 04:21:21 pmThat's true for trademarks, not (in a legal sense) for patents. Which is why submarine patents are an issue (hey, you know about that technology we standardized and everybody has been using for ten years, I have a patent on that!).

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 20, 2010, 05:42:16 pm
content: well very funny they have just discussed this very topic on the radio and yea true, best way to protect something is not tell anyone about it. Quite true, in fact I've never given anyone access to all the details of the project except the person I working on it with/for, I've asked many questions about it on forums without giving the whole game away. and yes being such a nice market, i'm probably worrying over nothing

author: baljemmett
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 20, 2010, 06:42:28 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on August 20, 2010, 05:42:16 pmHaha -- I just logged in to post exactly that! Heard it and thought of your topic right away

author: Rhythmtech
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2010, 06:43:48 pm
content: Quote from: alm on August 20, 2010, 05:37:14 pmI was considering it an "in practice" approach.E. H. Armstrong'spatent battle with RCA over FM radio is a good example of what happens when you disclose via a patent and somebody doesn't want to pony up and pay. Armstrong ended up in suicide and the case is I believe still the longest patent battle on record.Quote from: wikipedia

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 20, 2010, 08:02:24 pm
content: Quote from: baljemmett on August 20, 2010, 06:42:28 pmRadio 2 ?

author: baljemmett
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 20, 2010, 08:41:11 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on August 20, 2010, 08:02:24 pmThe very same -- Mr. Mayo's show -- I had finished the 'drive' part of drivetime and was manning the stove at the time though so I missed most of what was said!

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 20, 2010, 08:47:51 pm
content: Quote from: baljemmett on August 20, 2010, 08:41:11 pmhehe yea i was washing up and making dinner (well reheating a frozen one)

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 20, 2010, 11:41:15 pm
content: Please read this before you decide:http://www.tinaja.com/glib/casagpat.pdfand more here:http://www.tinaja.com/patnt01.aspAnd I totally agree with Don. Getting something patented is almost guaranteed to be a complete waste of time and money.My brother-in-law is a patent attorney so if you need specific advice I can probably get it.For me in Australia it costs around $75 to file a 1 year provisional patent (because he writes the patent for me for free)What that gives you is 12 months to decide if you want to take that to a full patent and then pay the $3K-$5 required for a full patent that covers the major countries of interest. Again, that does not include the cost of the lawyer to write it for you.It's pretty much almost certain that whatever idea you have it, it can be beat by anyone with enough time or money. So patents are generally a really BAD thing for the individual or small company.A patent DOES NOT stop someone copying your design. It only gives you the right to sue them if they do, and you can't do that unless you have hundreds of thousands of dollars at a minimum. The average patent defense case is closer to a million dollars.My advice, do anything you can to avoid getting a patent. There are many ways to make your design harder to copy if you are concerned about such things.Dave.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 21, 2010, 06:56:22 am
content: yes your right and in my case it is a waste of time, my project is specifically for vintage cars so quite a niche market i have access to through a friend but can expand if modified slightly for a range of cars and vehicles not just the ones my friends has contact with. This is where I could reach a world wide market through ebay and get my design instantly ripped off by some Chinese manufacturer (who it would be hopeless sueing) or other savy person like myself, it's not a rocket science circuit just a cunning one and as I'm sure most on here will tell me my deliberate choice of a micro over analogue parts (well in the beginning either could have worked although now it has to be MCU anyway) won't help protect against copying, hey you only have to have my basic programming skills to rewrite the software if not bypass the code protection (well I can't do that).Potting it is not really an option, would you be happy potting a relay carrying 10 amps and power mosfets (without heat sinks due to space constraints) which already operate in a confined space ? No I didn't think so. again wiping the chips clean does not help, as you could probably guess what the parts do by the circuit that you can reverse engineer and then find suitable parts that do the job.I've already done this myself at work, We had some water activated pumps come in that never worked properly, in a couple of days of my spare time at work I had revered engineered the circuit, asked my people what the running specs were (timings so the pump did not run non stop and burn up) and then designed a replacement circuit with the required mods to make it work in one evening including the software (just for fun and a sense of personal justice we are still using the naff ones).

author: saturation
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2010, 12:07:42 pm
content: You can get screwed if you play a game you don't understand. But if you play by the rules it creates, you can reap what you sow.A well made, accurate and recent movie that details litigation for patent infringement by a little guy against the big guy is the case of the variable speed wiper:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Kearns"There are many other inventors who have fought long battles to enforce their patents as Dr. Kearns did. These included Edwin Howard Armstrong, who battled over the invention of frequency modulation in radio broadcasting; Walter C. Avrea, who eventually won multi-million-dollar lawsuits against Ford and GM for their unauthorized use of a coolant recovery system he invented in 1970, and which was needed to prevent overheating of Pinto and Vega aluminum-block engines; Philo Farnsworth, the "father of television", inventor of the first all electronic television set battled RCA, and Gordon Gould, who had a thirty-year fight with the United States Patent and Trademark Office to obtain patents for the laser and related technologies and who fought with laser manufacturers in court battles to enforce the patents he subsequently did obtain.Perhaps most notably – and egregiously in terms of lasting misconceptions and inaccurate history books to this day – Nikola Tesla died just months before the US Supreme Court upheld his basic radio patent issued in 1900. This ruling effectively recognized Tesla as the true inventor of radio, as the decision overturned the US Patent Office's sudden reversal in 1904 which granted Guglielmo Marconi the patent despite repeated rejections over several years. This patent led directly to the questionable award of the Nobel Prize in Physics to Marconi in 1909."Patent laws differ in different countries, but in the US, infringement does not result in criminal liability, only civil.Because itscivil, the patent holder has to enforce and seek redress should their patent be violated.This is pretty much understood from #1.Civil thus, means if you do battle with a giant, you also need to be a giant, because no one is going to stand up for you, but you.http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2006/aug/23settlement.htmlIn the US, there are companies that exist whose job is to enforce patents and, just like ambulance chaser lawyers, seek no money upfront, but benefit should they take your case and sue a big guy for billions, as they still do for tobacco companies.http://www.generalpatent.com/homeIf they win, they may get a lion's share of the winnings, but having enforced your patent, you likely apart from the lawyers, continue to reap licensing fees until the patent expires.Just don't go into getting a patent by simply assuming that number gives you the right of the ultimate giant, the country that hosts the patent, will stand by you, you are one your own.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2010, 12:25:33 pm
content: Maybe we should make money first, patent later. I always see a product sell and there is quote "Patent Pending". China makers always use reputable brand to produce their product such as Nokia->Nokla, Adidas->Adibas, latest i saw is Sony PSP->POP, something like that. And its unstoppable for so many years now.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 21, 2010, 12:29:09 pm
content: Quote from: shafri on August 21, 2010, 12:25:33 pmmight be an idea not sure that I'll be taking the market by storm but if i do worth thinking of

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 21, 2010, 01:09:04 pm
content: Quote from: shafri on August 21, 2010, 12:25:33 pmI'm not a patent lawyer, but I believe you at least need an application for that to work (plus a lawyer to write it).

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 21, 2010, 01:21:18 pm
content: well really I'm probably best not bothering with a patent, like you all say it is expensive to get and then I need to defend it assuming I find infringers, best way to do it is sell it directly to people and avoid the net until I've exhausted the local market

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2010, 02:52:18 pm
content: Quote from: alm on August 21, 2010, 01:09:04 pmdont even apply! when the lawyer ask, where is your patent application? then the answer is... "ok, its still pending".... china style!

author: saturation
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2010, 03:51:28 pm
content: Besides Armstrong leaping off the Empire State building in dispair, Kearns lost his wife, family, sanity, finally his health, but yes, he made millions.http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=10527866http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A54564-2005Feb25.html

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 21, 2010, 03:55:58 pm
content: well my first aim is to boycott the current crap units from India and supply a solid British made alternative, of course making a few bob on the side is not against my principles