What if someone is WRONG on this forum? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 26, 2023, 09:30:39 pm
content: Quote from: Brumby on December 26, 2023, 11:17:37 amThat's the thing.Is "trolling" on a threadthey startedactually trolling?Who's is it hurting if they get their jollies discussing physics or other technical details in circles and refuse to admit they are "wrong"?If you don't think you are getting through to someone who asked a question, then just don't reply any more.There are countless legit electronics threads on here I could put under the same catgeory.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 26, 2023, 09:35:30 pm
content: Quote from: 5U4GB on December 26, 2023, 12:25:48 pmIf we had a policy like that then we'd have the ban everyone involved in the Electroboom / Walter Lewin discussion for example.https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/does-kirchhoffs-law-hold-disagreeing-with-a-master/

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 26, 2023, 09:41:59 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on December 26, 2023, 11:53:16 amButhe startedthe thread. How do you troll in your own thread? No one is obligated to reply to or continue discussion in a thread.It would be different if say someone came into an existing established thread and just ruined it by trolling.It guess it comes down to "ownership" of a thread. Should the thread owner have the right to continue going in circles or whatever in their own thread? I think it's probably generally agreed on here (and general forum ettiqutte anywhere) that there are some "rights" that come with being the OP of a thread.We (mods) have actually had many reports over the years from an OP that someone is derailing the thread and can we give them a tap on the shoulder.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 26, 2023, 09:53:37 pm
content: Quote from: spork on December 26, 2023, 09:46:20 pmWrong is also, in many cases, only wrong until it's not, or comes under question, or you are making a subtle technical point etc.And even if someone is dead set demonstrably wrong, full stop, if they asked the question in a new thread and refuse to admit they are wrong, should they be banned? If so, why?

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2023, 11:20:27 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on December 26, 2023, 09:41:59 pmIt's fair enough that he started later threads, but the first thread, he didn't start (as I recall). He came into that thread later, and when people got tired of it and told him to go away, he then started other threads.It would be great if people would simply ignore the new threads and stop feeding them, but it seems hard for that to happen.Maybe people will do better at ignoring them this time around.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 26, 2023, 11:31:32 pm
content: Quote from: spork on December 26, 2023, 11:05:05 pmMy question is relevant and remains, should they be banned for not admitting they are wrong? And if so, why?

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 26, 2023, 11:34:44 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on December 26, 2023, 11:20:27 pmIn that case isn't that thepolitething to do?QuoteBut what if those peoplewantto engage in those threads? How does that harm you or others on the forum?

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2023, 11:45:17 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on December 26, 2023, 11:34:44 pmIt doesn't, directly, and if it was a private forum nobody would care.But this is a public forum, and people can be directed here by search engines when looking for answers to questions. It is therefore difficult to leave factually incorrect information lying around in threads unchallenged, as if it is accepted.So you get an endless spiral, where something incorrect is posted, people say "no, that's wrong", and then more wrong assertions get posted over and over again.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 27, 2023, 12:11:47 am
content: Quote from: IanB on December 26, 2023, 11:45:17 pmAnd your solution is what?Where is the line?Who becomes the arbitor of absolute truth?Should I delete all posts in the Electroboom vs Lewin thread that disagree with the esteemed Professor Lewin?What about the Veritasium electricty thread?Getting back to the topic at hand, why should someone not be able to start a thread like this one taking on the validity of Veritasium's test, and argue it into minute detail until the cows come home?Just because a Youtuber won a bet against a university professor, that's it, it's settled for the rest of eternity, not to be questioned ever again under the punishment of banning for posting misinformation?Even if no one replied to them and they posted pages and pages of absolute technical dribble, do they not have a right to the "Free and Open forum" which this one is? If so, where is the line?We do actually have a rule in place that we reserve the right to remove "unsafe" information. I think maybe we have used that once.But there is no rule for beingwrong. Convince me that there should be and how it should be implemented. But you are ging to have to try hard, because I have seen in recent years where that leads, and it's not good.

author: lezginka_kabardinka
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2023, 12:35:27 am
content: David, have you been on the Whisky? 😆

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 27, 2023, 12:41:05 am
content: Quote from: lezginka_kabardinka on December 27, 2023, 12:35:27 amI don't drink.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 27, 2023, 12:45:45 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on December 27, 2023, 12:11:47 amI have mixed feelings about this. On one side he shouldn't be banned for spewing nonsense. On other hand there was no normal discussion where he would actually listen his opponents. Not misrepresenting what they claimed in different ways to generate even more nonsense. The problem was that others were "feeding the troll" and try argue instead of just giving up on hopeless endeavor and let the thread die for good. Dunno, maybe appropriate would be temporary ban for being overwhelmingly annoying and creating new threads to expand worthless discussion as if his life depends on it.

author: lezginka_kabardinka
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2023, 12:48:35 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on December 27, 2023, 12:41:05 amYou will dehydrate! 😛

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 27, 2023, 12:49:53 am
content: Quote from: lezginka_kabardinka on December 27, 2023, 12:48:35 amhttps://www.youtube.com/shorts/-2mf1mqZVQ0

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2023, 12:54:15 am
content: I'm leaning more towards semi-unrestricted (postings), but with caveat that lots of 'monitoring' takes place, and a person posting has a tacit acceptance of that. Hmmm that sounded like a 'cookies' notice.Some posts get a bit playful, as in something from Electroboom videos. I see that (non-serious) as a valuable factor, in entertainment...Maybe the Nuclear Engineer comes home, for the evening, and wants only frivolous, and yes, maybe pure stupidity, for a couple seconds, before repeating a potentially crappy daytime job.Just go for the harmful posts, and, of course, keeping everyone's basic privacy and no expressions of hostility, at least.===================================I'm reminded of the classic 1950's TV show,'Leave it to Beaver's with an episode dedicated to a 'Lying adult' who told untrue stories..., followed by pitching the kid for some $ money.At end of that episode the kid (i.e. 'Beaver') admitted that he gave the man money, saying:"I knew he was lying, but it was a good story".THAT sent the older brother off, shaking his head, trying to wrap his head around the concept.If it's entertainment, partially, let the fools lie! They better be good though.

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2023, 01:09:38 am
content: I think it's probably too hard of a problem to solve with fixed rules.Needs human feedback.Be cool if regular users could indicate that person X (in their opinion) has done enough to be banned by simply clicking a 'ban' button on that users post.The vote wouldn't actually do anything itself and you couldn't see if other people were voting to ban you.Admins could see this ban count and make a call to ban or not, but they would have a good indication that the community is in agreement or not.(Maybe only usable if you have a high enough post count and have been around for a few years, just to stop bots making many new accounts and trying to game the system against someone)

author: VK3DRB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2023, 01:15:18 am
content: Quote from: spork on December 26, 2023, 09:46:20 pmI worked with a bloke somewhere far away on the spectrum. He'd get his jollies by telling people "wrong, Wrong, WRONG!". He was a brilliant electronics engineer and one of the few engineers who could write embedded code properly. We got on well. He was a nice bloke though, despite his strange behaviour. He clashed with another employee with a big ego who wanted to punch his lights out.There was ex-Air Force technician I had to work with in the same company. You couldn't tell this jerk anything no matter how careful one was. If a car was black and he said it was white, you either agreed with him or he'd spit the dummy yelling out "WRONG!". One day has said something about EMC compliance regulations that was incorrect. I gently showed him the paragraph in the standard and he screamed blue murder. He spat the dummy like a big baby and would not speak to me for two weeks. He was rude to the extreme. And dangerous. He once booby trapped his desk with bare 230V live mains wires on it, saying that anyone who touches his desk deserves to be electrocuted, and then he went home. He left the company not long after and I noticed the morale of the place immediately increased markedly. I suspect his mental issues came from him being bullied in the Air Force for 20 years. I came across two other military jerks with a similar mentality. One at a Agilent trade show said "Only real men use analogue oscilloscopes. Digital oscilloscopes are for poofters." Another at a wedding told me I did not work at IBM because they had closed. I told him i was had worked there for 10 years and was still working there at the time with 600 other employees and he I wasWRONG, the place had closed, and I that didn't know where I worked.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 27, 2023, 01:16:10 am
content: Quote from: Psi on December 27, 2023, 01:09:38 amWe kinda have this already. If someone's posts get repeatedly reported by multiple people then we look at giving a warning.We also have a crude Twitter Community Notes style feature with the Thanks button. For example, if someone posts somethign that's incredibly wrong and someone does a good technical rebuttal and a dozen people Thank that posts, then it's really obvious to anyone watching that that post that's being rebutted was rubbish. And that's visible to random people searching and not logged in.

author: fourfathom
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2023, 01:23:43 am
content: I've participated in the DDWFTTW threads, and argued with electrodaecus (spelling? don't care) plenty of times. He is wrong and can't be convinced. But it's entertaining, until it's not. Then I stop participating. But as far innocent people being directed by Google toBad Information, this seems pretty self-correcting when 3/4 of the posts are explaining why it'sBad.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 27, 2023, 01:24:11 am
content: I thought a bit and if I had to create an actual rule that resolves the situation it would be something like this:If discussion is somewhat heated, then after thread reaches defined X amount of posts moderator may lock the thread on their discretion. If particular user made over certain % of posts in this thread, and tried creating a new similar one, they get temporary ban. If they reoffend in say 6 months, they get permanent ban. Nothing to do about being right or wrong. In other words, you regulate maximum size of heated discussion rather than judge who is right or wrong.EDIT: It's not like I propose this rule, just suggest how to look on the problem from a different angle.

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2023, 01:25:55 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on December 27, 2023, 01:16:10 amI suspect most people can't be bothered to click report and write out a paragraph explanation about why they are reporting someone.You'd get way more data points if it was easier to say "ban this guy" in a single click.I almost want a button that works exactly the same as the "Thanks" button but instead of thanks it says "Dip Shit".However that would almost definitely cause more problems than it solves, so lets not do that.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 27, 2023, 01:38:48 am
content: Quote from: Psi on December 27, 2023, 01:25:55 amIIRC we actually tried this a long time ago with a post rating feature plugin, and it was abused. Almost everyone voted to removed it, and the simple Thanks only plugin was installed instead.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 27, 2023, 01:40:46 am
content: Quote from: wraper on December 27, 2023, 01:24:11 amWe have actually done this in the past after peole have reported a thread.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2023, 01:42:29 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on December 26, 2023, 09:30:39 pmYes, a first poster can troll. The prototypical example of troll is someone who, in a usenet feminist/mothers/women's group, posts "It is impossible for a husband to rape their wife", or similar. In other words, a drive-by "light blue touch paper and retire immediately" incendiary post. Then retire and watch the endless posts, without participating.My objections: wasting other people's time, endangering other people, lowering the signal-to-noise ratio without any counterbalancing benefit. Usenet suffered from all of those, yoootooob does now, and let's not think about farcebook and twatter.Too much trash, and the serious contributions are drowned by the trash, and people go elsewhere.All in all it is a difficult subject with no simple answers. A big grey area in the middle. Someone has to exercise judgement and decide the "purpose" of the forum. Without that the conspiracy theorists (and others) will gradually dominate.

author: snarkysparky
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2023, 01:44:46 am
content: Or if someone is "right" on this forum, but the management doesn't like it and locks the thread.RE: Global warming sceptics

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 27, 2023, 01:45:32 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on December 27, 2023, 01:40:46 amI've seen something like this. However IMHO it was more like on a whim rather than something that was done according to a previously decided way of how things go in these situations. And banning someone or just locking a thread on a whim is not good and hard to justify.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2023, 01:51:12 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on December 27, 2023, 01:16:10 amThat's sane good judgement. Mistakes will always be made, but it works pretty well on this forum.QuoteThoroughly discredited by indiscriminate posters that, for example, "thank"everyresponse in their threads - even those that are making fun or being politely rude. I'mvaguelycurious as to the proportion of my thanks that have come from one notorious multi-monikered poster.Fortunately there is no "downvoting"

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2023, 01:52:15 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on December 27, 2023, 01:38:48 amPredictable. Good it was removed.

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2023, 01:54:59 am
content: A trolling technique residents should probably be aware of:https://www.reddit.com/r/tumblr/comments/j6i80o/the_famous_sharks_are_smooth/Tim

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2023, 01:59:03 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on December 26, 2023, 09:41:59 pmNo, I don't think anyone owns a thread, any more than one person owns a conversation in a pub. Conversations drift, full stop. And the drifts often reveal interesting subtle points not imagined early in the thread.Note that trolling is a very different issue.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 27, 2023, 03:01:14 am
content: Quote from: tggzzz on December 27, 2023, 01:42:29 amThis forum has had the "free and open" policy since day one, and it hasn't ruined the forum. Free energy, flat earthers, crowd funding scammers etc are free to join and disuss, but they usually don't last long because they get ridiculed or ignored.Signal to noise ratio has always been very high, and time wasting threads usually just die into obscurity.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 27, 2023, 03:08:19 am
content: Quote from: tggzzz on December 27, 2023, 01:59:03 amBut like I said, if they started the thread then surely they have at least some right to continue going in circles and reassert their position in thier own thread?If others have started another conversation in that thread then IMO they have no right to ask the OP to be banned from their own thread because thet are "disrupting" the new discussion?We actually get this all the time with people asking to split a thread off into a new topic, leaving the existing thread to die on it's own or continue with what it was doing.This forum isn't like a standing room only pub, it effectively has tables that people book to discuss a certain topic. Anyone is welcome to join the table, but if the conversation gets out of hand then I think the person that booked that table has at least some right to ask others who came to the table to stay on topic. Or at the very least not get banned or warned because they want to keep spouting what they booked that table to spout.As a moderator, I for one will give extra priority to the thread starter. So if you report that an OP is talking crap in their own thread, it's going to need to be something fairly extraordinary for me to step in.

author: lezginka_kabardinka
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2023, 03:43:43 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on December 27, 2023, 12:49:53 amDave, it was rherotic... one doesn't reply to rhetoric. I can see we shall have to enroll you in the school of Monty Python and sharpen up your wit

author: RoGeorge
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2023, 03:47:10 am
content: I think this is a forum, so a place for open discussions. Each with own ideas, and with own level of knowledge. As long as people are staying polite to each other, there is no harm in asking or insisting on a wrong idea.A forum is not a reference textbook.It is not our responsibility if a search engine will pop up something incorrect at a search. Side note, search engines does not return the truth, they return related words.Let's not become "The Ministry of Truth".

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 27, 2023, 03:48:34 am
content: Quote from: lezginka_kabardinka on December 27, 2023, 03:43:43 am

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 27, 2023, 04:01:56 am
content: Do nothing until it crosses the line of being troublesome.Who hasn't been wrong at some point in their lives?

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2023, 04:54:55 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on December 27, 2023, 12:41:05 amI'd recommend you start! But that's probably bad advice.I think it is possible for a thread starter to be a troll, but I'm not sure exactly how to define "trolling" in a technically oriented forum like this. However, I'd much rather be tolerant of such apparent abuses of the debate process rather than see people being censored--even for being egregiously unsusceptible to reason.

author: bill_c
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2023, 05:00:05 am
content: The ignore list should be all that is needed. If I just don't like someone for some reason (and some are rather silly), then I ignore them. There are many other smart and helpful people here with posts that I would rather read. If someone doesn't like me for whatever reason and decides to ignore me, that is fine too. People can disagree, post wrong info, post right info, and usually its easy for me to see right from wrong. I think this forum is good as is. ...or maybe add a popcorn emote when you know this is gonna be a long dramatic thread

author: Andy Chee
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2023, 05:07:34 am
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on December 27, 2023, 04:54:55 amAnything discussing the technical merits of Stanley Meyer's fuel cell, to me would be trolling.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_fuel_cellOTOH if it's purely historical interest, for example, Nikola Tesla's ambition for global wireless power, then I suppose that's ok as long as it doesn't branch off into free energy.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2023, 05:28:00 am
content: or stoic discussionthat episode of stargate with the aliens that manner of factly say QM is a common blunder and walk through walls comes to mind.and I would be cautious being super vehement about abstract concepts and theories, even something as simple as the James Webb telescope seems to be really shaking up the physics community. And I have been reading basically to-the-death arguments and statements about 'simple' astrophysics on the internet for a LONG time that seem to be brought into question... no doubt that the people writing were totally sure they were right. Based on the tones of the various authors over the decades, I am not confident the new facts/data are even being considered properly because there was upmost confidence in some ideas people had.But in general, when you see people get blazing mad over a black hole we probobly won't even get near for god knows how long, its clear that things are totally blown out of proportion very frequently. Guys almost get into a knife fight over a DSP generated theoretical pixel on a folding umbrella sent down to earth and put through 500 data filters....

author: lezginka_kabardinka
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2023, 05:42:47 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on December 27, 2023, 03:48:34 amBut… there ^was^ no joke (and that’s the joke in itself)Whoosh. Whoosh whoooooooosh. Oopsie.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 27, 2023, 06:09:35 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on December 27, 2023, 04:01:56 amBut I guess that's the issue, people who think people are "troublesome" and report them. There is always someone who just can't resist reporting someone they don't like and won't take their advice or admit they are wrong etc.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 27, 2023, 06:12:59 am
content: Quote from: lezginka_kabardinka on December 27, 2023, 05:42:47 amThe mistake you made was saying "one doesn't reply to rhetoric".

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 27, 2023, 06:17:35 am
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on December 27, 2023, 04:54:55 amI actually agree. What I was getting at by asking if it was possible, is that even if they are deliberately trolling, who cares if it's their own thread topic they started? Just walk away and let the thread die once you realise it's a troll.Of course, one troll could derail an entire existing good thread, and that has to be looked at more harshly.And you can flood the forum with new threads and that gets annoying, which also needs to be looked at.

author: chriswebb
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 27, 2023, 06:39:27 am
content: The purposeful irony of this thread is brilliant.

author: lezginka_kabardinka
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2023, 07:42:24 am
content: Dave, stand out of the way, I'm throwing down a ropeladder.

author: hans
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2023, 07:46:55 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on December 27, 2023, 03:01:14 amTo be honest this forum does feel unmoderated at times, where some infamous "nutcases" will be ridiculed and bashed to virtual death. IMO it wouldn't be my choice on how to treat people.Regarding OP, I think its fair to leave a discussion free and open in case of debate. Moderating on who is right or wrong is how you get echo chambers. Socially, some answers can still win a popularity content using "likes", though.However, some topics can derail quite quickly. Someone asks how to talk to an I2C on a PIC16F, and in 10 posts we'll have opinionated bloat on 32-bit vs 16-bit 8-bit vs [insert fanboy MCU series], why no one should use a RTOS, and whether rhetorical-OP's choice of MPLAB+XC8 is still bearable. Again, the forums feels a bit unmoderated at times.On the other hand, I also hang out on a Dutch IT/tech-nerd site which are very strict about off-topic posting, but they are also very strict on "misinformation". However, who/what is information is led to be judged by the average joe, which only confirms the Dunning-Kruger curve, and IMO this in turn facilitates echo chambers by marking individual comment(trees) as "BS". It leads to a lot of unfair moderation as anyone can vote(just like Reddit), and so, the first few voters who disagree with someone (or has something personal against it) basically get to pick the sentiment which "mainstream" folks (who just read to agree) will follow blindly. I'm not a fan of that system.So in short, for all intents and purposes of this forum, it works. But with the gained insight that some cynical/bashing posts are better read when you're drunk, so you can forget them ASAP.

author: lezginka_kabardinka
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2023, 07:49:07 am
content: ˙ɹıɐɟɟɐ ǝnbıun ɐ sı ɐıןɐɹʇsnɐ uı sɐɯʇsıɹɥɔ

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2023, 08:26:13 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on December 27, 2023, 03:08:19 amAnalogies are usually dangerous, since people discuss the analogy rather than the issue. This forum isn't usenet, for better and worse. Mostly better!An OP gently but firmly guiding a thread back to a very specific subject is perfectly reasonable. I've done that on a couple of occasions. It is a group of "equal" people participating in a conversation.Your "light touch" plus members' comments work very well in 99.9% of the cases. Naturally some things test the boundaries, e.g. 5G cracpkots and the very few who monomanically create very very similar threads about about a particular issue.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2023, 08:29:41 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on December 27, 2023, 04:01:56 amMe; I'm perfect.<pause>Oh. Ah. Gulp.Moee.seriously, spot on.

author: JohanH
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2023, 08:35:36 am
content: https://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/duty_calls.png

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2023, 08:39:51 am
content: Quote from: bill_c on December 27, 2023, 05:00:05 amUsenet had more problems, and some usefully improved versions of block lists were developed. One in particular was "ignore poster X and replies to poster X". That allowed people to continue to read a thread while ignoring irritatingsub-threads.There are a couple, and only a couple, of Xs that I would apply that on the forum. One infamous example on usenet was SkybuckFlying, and mercifully I've forgotten others.That facility can't be available on any web-forum. Oh well, nothing's perfect.

author: Andy Chee
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2023, 08:46:02 am
content: Quote from: tggzzz on December 27, 2023, 08:26:13 amWood for the trees

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 27, 2023, 09:03:51 am
content: Quote from: tggzzz on December 27, 2023, 08:39:51 amThe usenet aus.electronics and other groups were ruined by two regular trolls, Phil Allison and Rod Speed.Rod Speed was so famous for his bot-like responses that someone wrote a Rod Speed chat bot that was pretty accurate.Apart from those two, I was the top poster on Aus.Electronics.Usenet also died when Google Groups took it over and anyone who used it was branded a "Google Grouper" and many people refused to respond to posts that originated from Google Groups.I started the Aus Electronics Yahoo group and that was rather popular for a few years as people left Usenet to avoid the resident trolls.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 27, 2023, 09:59:40 am
content: The current litmus test is the Whirlpool forums (whirlpool.net.au).Once you reachthatlevel of disfunctional (between the users, moderators and the owner), it's too late. Their way of moderating seems to be the scattergun approach mixed with "who has more sand in their vagina today".

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2023, 10:11:37 am
content: whirlpool you say

author: wilfred
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2023, 10:52:00 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on December 26, 2023, 11:31:32 pmI'd argue they should not be banned for being wrong or not admitting it. If people responding fail to make a persuasive case then they should step away, or try a different tack. It shouldn't take long to work out if the person is willing to take your points onboard. Some people have a great sense of self invested in their opinions and are very hard to shift. Some people argue their case very badly and you can get threads that devolve for a time into a bun fight between two people that push out others. They may not even be the OP. They are the people I would sin-bin before those that I think are wrong.

author: wilfred
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2023, 11:00:53 am
content: Quote from: tggzzz on December 27, 2023, 08:26:13 amArguing by analogy has the problem that your argument inherits the weaknesses within the analogy. And you are right the first thing people will do is find it. Usually introducing an analogy starts out "It's a bit like.... " which it rarely is and it's the differences that lead you into peril.

author: wilfred
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2023, 11:05:16 am
content: Quote from: chriswebb on December 27, 2023, 06:39:27 amCan you have purposeful irony? That would be ironic.

author: DavidAlfa
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2023, 11:08:06 am
content: Don't get anywhere close to programming threads then... There're 345 truths and no one is willing to loosen the hand.Arguing is quite common at forums, as long as it doesn't get out of control, just let the kid play until tired.

author: wilfred
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2023, 11:19:42 am
content: Quote from: tggzzz on December 27, 2023, 01:59:03 amI agree that because this is a public forum people should be mindful and respectful of others who might be listening or dissuaded from participating in a "private" argument. Using the pub analogy I would regard those engaged in a tit-for-tat private argument as a pair of drunks shaping up for a fight. They are a disruptive nuisance and should be shown the door until they've sobered up a bit.And trolling in my view is NOT the same as repeatedly being wrong. Trolling is different in that the troll seeks to advance both sides of an argument simply to provoke angry responses. They can be completely indifferent to right or wrong. If you're aggressively wrong you might be a dickhead but not a troll.

author: DavidAlfa
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2023, 11:55:39 am
content: Quote from: JohanH on December 27, 2023, 08:35:36 amI also love this one!

author: HalFET
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2023, 12:15:40 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on December 27, 2023, 12:41:05 amI'd say some of the replies in this thread are very much a valid reason to start picking up the habit. But joking aside, truth policing usually ends badly. There are cases when folks should be banned, but those should honestly be left to the discretion of the forum moderators because they're usually attached to other destructive behaviour. For example, someone going into every thread and turning it into a US politics discussion and then repeating the same argument over and over is probably not the best person to have around on the forum.Quote from: DavidAlfa on December 27, 2023, 11:08:06 amWhich is why I find it incredibly funny that they now have a "single source of truth" as a paradigm in some programming languages. I had an argument about it with a colleague at work a while back, they failed to consider the practical execution of their code on an embedded system, leading to the fact that their source of truth may not always produce the same truth. But they kept repeating that it was the "source of truth", so that it's inherently correct. It's as if it's becoming some sort of weird meta joke for discussions about programming, but I do stand by my argument that you should probably take a look at how your scheduler works to consider when said truth is updated before assuming that it's infallible.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2023, 12:18:25 pm
content: Quote from: DavidAlfa on December 27, 2023, 11:08:06 amIf two engineers/physicists/chemists/lawyers don't have at least three opinions, then something is wrong.Most interesting discussions ought to be preceded by "It depends what you mean by X".

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2023, 12:22:26 pm
content: Quote from: wilfred on December 27, 2023, 11:19:42 amPrecisely.Awkward question: should someone be allowed to continue beligerantly encouraging other people (especially beginners) to do things that are generally acknowledged to be dangerous?

author: watchmaker
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 27, 2023, 01:16:46 pm
content: The mistake you made was saying "one doesn't reply to rhetoric".Dave,I may be a newbie, but I am old enough to know the power of bullshit. To be clear, I grew up when Republicans and Democrats went to the same worship centers.In the old days, you could ignore nonsense because it had no place to propagate short of the KKK or John Birch. But if it is publicly unchallenged, you wind up with post WWI Italy.Rhetoric MUST be refuted. Will the refutation do any good today? Likely not. In the 1980s, I had to build a conceptual model of persuasion. Sensory stuff at birth, basic learning theory, beliefs, values, attitudes and SOURCE. In those days source meant a trusted community member. Which meant someone you touch and feel and who had to face the community every day.Today, that source is an internet influencer with high likes. Further, the social media bubbles mean "the community" shares and ENFORCES a common set of values and attitudes. It is important to note I do not mention facts. Cognitive acquisition is filtered by all the above prior to acceptance. Parents especially are no longer trusted sources compared to "influencers".I think you are asking the right questions. The question is to how to be effective.EEVBLOG is a community. It shares a set of beliefs, values, attitudes and even facts. You and several others are trusted sources. The extent to which the community enforces it's shared culture is beyond my pay grade. I will say that rigid forum policies have resulted in power things that led to collapse. The policy here is seems to have worked.I propose two strategies. First, it is possible to provide "known trusted source" tags next to a poster's ID. There are social psyc reasons I do not suggest going negative. It can turn into a nightmare.Secondly, as a newbie, it may well be useful to provide a sticky on the Beginners page (Repair as well?) that first off explains safety for beginners; and secondly how to read posts and interpret the "trusted source" tag. I already do this via the "SuperContributor/Administrator" tags.An analogy of safety for beginners. I have been trained to OSHA standards in chainsaw (including falling). The certification course are not intended to make you perfect. They are intended to increase your chance of survival when you make a mistake (after which you do a post mortem and LEARN).It took me three days to sort thru basic grounding and ESD mitigation. ESD was after my time in class, and grounding I wanted to refresh. Basic safety would include these as well as define earthing vs circuit ground. It could also hit how international and historical variations of power distribution can impact this.Perhaps as simple as link to a EEVBLOG video?After that, I think your ethical/moral concerns are addressed. You are keeping the forum public, directing newbies to vetted information about how to minimize injury as we learn, and how to interpret the community's acceptance of individual posts via the trusted source marker.This took some time to write and I know it is taking time to read. But this has been one of the only two useful and enjoyable forums of which I was a member. And I first used listservs in 1995!THANKS to all who make this forum work.Dewey

author: watchmaker
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 27, 2023, 01:28:01 pm
content: Quote from: spork on December 27, 2023, 01:20:22 pmI removed the irony for clarity. Thanks!And for the helluvit, I was using DARPAnet at UVA in 1982.

author: watchmaker
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 27, 2023, 01:46:10 pm
content: I used to have this on the cabinet next to my computer but lost it in the move. I used it to explain to my kid. Published in the New Yorker in 1993 by Peter Steiner, 1993.I THINK this is permitted by use but if not let me know.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2023, 01:50:44 pm
content: Quote from: spork on December 27, 2023, 01:18:43 pmIndeed.Some views need to be vigorously and unambiguously "challenged". People thatrepeatedlypropose such views should be forcibly challenged.Example, in the form of an analogy that appears to have some validity since it is becoming repeated more frequently by more posters on this forum. Anybody that advocates - especially to inexperienced beginners - the equivalent of "I have run into the road many times without looking and not come to any harm. Therefore it isn't dangerous and you can do it too". Yes, there are such posts, and the proponents typically refuse to understand the points made in multiple authoratative publications.Should such perps be banned? Probably not. But it is essential that they are challenged and their ignorance is ridiculed before people/property are harmed. or even read, or are incapable of understanding, or are simply trolls.

author: mendip_discovery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2023, 03:16:00 pm
content: If we banned users just becuase they were wrong then Dave would suffer from mods all too often ;-)I think we are all wrong often enough becuase none of us are perfect, it takes years to learn all the good stuff and then people go an improve things and then our brains start to wander.If this forum was too clicky or two aggressive then I wouldn't be here.I do like that politics is kept to a minimum, it's why I have a low profile on the interwebs these days as it soon turns into a poo flinging session.I am starting to learn that I need to treat certain posters with a pinch of salt but that has always been the way. Then there are others that you need to ensure you have a fresh brew as you know you are in for a good read (Dr Frank & Nominal Animal are two).Anyway,Quote

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2023, 03:49:31 pm
content: Quote from: watchmaker on December 27, 2023, 01:16:46 pmThat sounds like 'agent of the Ministry of Thruth' to me. I fully understand your intention to guide new users, i.e. here's someone you can trust and has a proven track record. A newbie will find that out sooner or later anyway. A badge could also work in a negative way by discouraging others from commenting or creating some sort of 'I have a badge, therefore I'm always right' mentality.Back to topic, I think that the classic netiquette (Usenet/Fidonet/whatever) provides sufficient guidance: Don't offend anyone, and try to not be easily offended.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2023, 05:20:30 pm
content: Being wrong is part of most of learning process usually. Also, sometimes people have a bad day and they are rude. Or it takes a while to realize your mistake.On the other hand I've seen people who have narcissistic personality disorder, and they are absolutely incapable to admit they were wrong. It causes them probably physical pain, and the only way they can handle it is by attacking anyone who disagrees with them. I would ban a person with NPD in a second, although it's an unfortunate condition, and uncurable, they are the most toxic vile people on earth.So we just have to use the moderation in moderation. Haha! Pun intended.mod: I'm not talking about anyone particular from this forum in this message.

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2023, 05:55:05 pm
content: Quote from: madires on December 27, 2023, 03:49:31 pmThere is a route to do so. Such a label must be given democratically, and maintained democratically; such a label must confer ability, and active responsibility, which is checked simultaneously and on a regular basis by a significant number of users. That is, there is potential for damage, for misuse, and there is heightened visibility -- e.g. every action must be reviewed and approved by at least N people (and maybe N depends on a ranking, or other metrics). By diffusing responsibility, it at least makes the scope as broad as possible -- obviously one cannot avoid the echo chamber that is the community as a whole, but one can attempt to maximize into that scope.It could be as eventful as holding elections from time to time, but preferably it would be an automatic process driven by meaningful metrics.With no editing/reporting mechanism here outside of whole-ass moderators, it would be rather intensive for moderators here to get involved / facilitate such a process. I suppose we could create an "editor" class or something like that, not (directly) tasked with (but perhaps can still help with) spam and peacekeeping moderation, and which has some sort of report/flag responding responsibility, and the resulting action is edits to existing posts.Tracking post history would be necessary, so readers get the superficial view first (and perhaps unregistered/new users don't see anything beyond this) but the history can still be read, the context understood, and edits made to improve it without losing the voice of the author or its meaning in the overall thread.But it's still not something that makes a whole lot of sense in a stream-of-collective-consciousness forum; there are authoritative, factual threads here, but you have tohate yourselfneed the information bad enough to dig through them and divine what the current state of knowledge in the thread even is. Perhaps we could force-volunteer contributors of such threads, and the threads themselves (chosen by election, say by accumulating enough flags over time? -- totals, rate, absolute or relative to thread size, take your pick), to add a responsibility to such topics -- "Congratulations, you've been selected to found/contribute to a wiki on !" perhaps.The fundamental problem with user wikis is, nobody ever uses them, EVER, so at least forcing people to write them would be a start -- and backlinking it by editing posts cited in the wiki (oh, you have to cite the posts as well -- be responsible, show your primary sources, right?!*), would be one way to drive readership to them.*Showing a post in context -- again, threads are messy, but at least this provides a means to navigate and cross-reference a thread. Equally important, it shows how the information originated, and if it was opposed at the time, or if it's been improved upon in subsequent posts (or edited if the earlier scheme were applied).And still, it all needs to be done in a way that it's not a chore. Maybe wiki edits + post citations becomes a [slightly less-]Meaningless Internet Points counter, and maybe some responsibilities are made contingent on that. Power sources must be diverse and regularly checked -- no single mechanism should be a path to power, the greatest responsibilities should always be highly visible and revocable by persistent and collective action -- or of course mod/admin action, as there ultimately can be notruedemocracy here*.*That said, if Dave wanted (emphasis on "wanted") to put his money where his collective mouths [the forum, ha?] are, I suppose making an anarchist partnership/coop would be the radicalreductio ad absurdumof that. Which assumes there's even a way to measure the value of the forum; it surely has collective value, and I mean not just to active users, but the wider internet on top of that. Other than ad revenue, and maybe a certain fraction of donations, how would you even go about measuring that? Not at all being serious here, but like I said, just the logical endpoint of maximumdoing an anarchy. It's a sliding scale, and just interesting to think about extreme values and how they could even begin to work.Speaking of collective action, mob mentality, might not be such a problem here?, with immediate feedback and community representation; but one must also keep in mind that creating these structures also creates their own incentives, and the community here is definitely large enough (i.e. >150 active users) that I can imagine cliques forming. TEA thread, case in point, I don't touch that at all, and I wouldn't be surprised if there are users that post there exclusively...(?!)So, anyway. Lots of ideas, most of them either a ton of work that'll never self-sustain, or just a poor fit to the forum. I can imagine some ways it could be started, but it's hard to say if any of them would be motivating enough to sustain, let alone to be worth the implementation effort (or already exist as plugins, I have no idea?). For sure, it's hard to enforce any kind of factual check oncollective stream of consciousness, and a more rigidly structured format is almost certainly necessary (hence the glued-on wiki idea). Something like Stackexchange, does a lot of this (crowd sourced review, including open editing by pretty much anyone), but it does it from a strict question-answer format -- not even a free-form wiki as such, and explicitly not for social purposes. Still -- and again, as a point in the space of what's conceivable -- it's interesting to reflect on the ways these things can be done, and maybe along the way, we'll hit upon something we do really want to try.Tim

author: temperance
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2023, 06:56:04 pm
content: What will come after the badges or anything similar? WWIII maybe if this forum could provide the proper tools.

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2023, 08:24:13 pm
content: (Liked wraper's posts, on this).I've mentioned a couple times, on EEVBLOG, that I actually got 'Canceled', by a non-profit helper agency (services and counseling for disabled locals). That means that when I next contacted them, about an active waiting list, the office person said that my file had been 'SHREDDED'....a pretty rude term to be dispensing considering that it took a bit to even decode what she had said.Figuring out (myself) that meant I was 86'ed from services there, I realized I had previously made a wise-crack, something about they were 'bragging' about how diverse the non-profit office was, announcing to the world.That wise crack, meant to convey that I didn't care about that aspect, of a help provider. Well that treatment, of myself, turned me into a walking CRITIC. Didn't cause any stirr, mainly because I wasn't out there, screaming 'Unfair!', just was somewhat bitter, about them.My point is that with some folks in the general public, a 'ban' or temporary take-down, will cause a certain amount of bad will, often in the form of trash-talking, it's only natural.My case, there, I don't know a lot of people, around town etc. so not a problem.But the 'bad will' effect can lead to some undeserved 'slander' that's maybe or not, harmless.Certainly I remember what they did to me. Just not a big deal in my case.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2023, 08:29:38 pm
content: Quote from: RJSV on December 27, 2023, 08:24:13 pmUpsetting nurse Ratched is usually a bad move...https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nurse_Ratched

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 27, 2023, 11:04:03 pm
content: Quote from: madires on December 27, 2023, 03:49:31 pmThis has actually been discussed before and IIRC it was voted down adding such a feature. Most were happy with the Thanks feature to effectively rank think on an individual post level and leave it at that.When it comes to Thanking a post (and also Hearting a comment on my Youtube videos). I don't always do that because I think a post is right, or I'm neccesarily "endorsing" that post. I also do it to just send appreciation for the effort put into the response.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 27, 2023, 11:15:49 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on December 27, 2023, 12:22:26 pmWe have a specifc rule about safety for that very reason. It's only been used once or twice, but it's there.Everyone's level of "dangerous" is different. I famously say that anything over 12VDC scares the shit out of me. Then you have Electroboom and Photonic Induction.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2023, 11:25:20 pm
content: And now the question is, what if everyone is wrong?

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 27, 2023, 11:33:27 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on December 27, 2023, 11:25:20 pmWe are in a simulation anyway.

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2023, 11:33:50 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on December 27, 2023, 11:25:20 pmIf everyone is wrong, then anyone that said another person was wrong ... would be wrong. This could get complicated.

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2023, 11:58:42 pm
content: "...things could get complicated...". TOO LATE for stopping 'complexity' we being humans and all.Can be pointed out, even in the midst of the most holyest, pure, like in a church, there's often little 'Shirley' or 'Frederick' smirking, while holding up a middle finger, in defiance.So you can't catch everything, even if you try hard. Some, will try holding (that middle finger up), even DURING discussions on how to adjust the management.I guess it's related to the 'bad' zoo chimps, slinging the wet fertilizer, at shocked patrons.I think (any) future Alien visitors might remark, of how us Humans don't wanna take orders from anyone!

author: Andy Chee
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2023, 01:26:21 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on December 27, 2023, 11:33:27 pmWrong. You are in a simulation, I'm not.

author: EPAIII
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2023, 04:53:41 am
content: Wrong?Just who is to say what is wrong?It is FUNDAMENTAL to the scientific method to QUESTION what is well established and "known to be correct".And then, when a new theory is well established, someone else comes along and kicks it in the you-know-what.Flat earth --- Kepler --- Newton --- Heisenburg --- Einstein --- Hawkings ---Who was wrong? The only correct answer is ALL of them and ALL of the ones who question their theories. Every scientist is WRONG! And the best of them readily admit it. They still argue for their latest theories, but in their heart of hearts they know all theories will ultimately be shown to be flawed. To be WRONG!The science is NEVER settled. It is NEVER final. It is ALWAYS subject to further question and improvement.So to criticize someone who disagrees with the "established" science is to go AGAINST science itself. The very core of science is disagreement which brings about a better understanding. And that NEVER ends. At least not for us mere mortals. So be careful in saying someone should not disagree with the science. Disagreement IS SCIENCE!

author: fourfathom
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2023, 05:50:51 am
content: Quote from: EPAIII on December 28, 2023, 04:53:41 amYeah, but that wind-powered vehicle can actually go directly downwind faster than the wind. There is zero ambiguity about this fact.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2023, 07:39:34 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on December 27, 2023, 11:15:49 pmI'w seen a guy dropping a wrench on car battery and it made short on terminals. That was scary shit too. So yeah, no hard limit what is dangerous and not.

author: .RC.
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2023, 09:27:07 am
content: Fanbois and girls are generally not that hard to pick out. I do not think I am smarter then average, maybe less so, but be on forums awhile you can find the people who generally have a slant and may not be a reliable source of information.Some forums are just slanted. I feel these forums are slanted slightly to the more right of centre socially. But not overtly so. Or maybe I am just getting positive bias as I probably have a more individual freedoms bias.Get into some places like Reddit and the bias can be pretty strong and stands out like daves pale buttcheeks when he is skinny dipping in his new pool at night.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 28, 2023, 09:58:34 am
content: Quote from: tggzzz on December 27, 2023, 01:42:29 amMy opinion as well.To me, trolling has nothing to do with any so-called "ownership" ... it is purely a matter of behaviour.Quote from: EEVblog on December 27, 2023, 03:01:14 am"time wasting threads usually just die into obscurity" This is a philosophy I try to encourage. Sometimes it isn't easy, but adding your two cents to a futile argument simply keeps the pot stirred up. Walking away is often the best policy.I will say, however, that sometimes putting yourself into debate on a subject can be very useful in YOU learning more about a subject, especially supporting a point of view that you hadn't studied in detail.My bottom line ... if it's a waste of time, walk away. Banning is, IMHO, only appropriate when deliberate trouble-making affects the forum. Flat-earth discussions and such aren't in this category.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2023, 01:54:30 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on December 27, 2023, 11:15:49 pmA 12V car battery scares me in the wrong circumstances: drop metal across that and see how much disappears as vapour and blobs. Metal bracelets and necklaces are verbotenEDIT: 2n3055 mentioned another classic: wrenches.OTOH I have secondary school physics equipment where there is 230-400V (controlled by front panel potentiometer) on anexposedterminal. Touching that terminal with a finger causes the dekatron counters to spinIt has a 5Mohm resistor in series, which is required so that a Geiger-Muller tube discharge generates a pulse, which is counted.The particular problem encountered here is people tellingbeginnersthat floating a scope is OK, and thattraditionalscope probes are OK when connected to the mains. They never add the necessary pre-conditions, and - disgracefully IMHO - often belittle or deny them.

author: wilfred
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2023, 02:33:18 pm
content: Quote from: spork on December 28, 2023, 08:42:18 amAs far as the Earth is concerned I thought it was created for a race of superintelligent pan-dimensional beings that humans perceived as a pair of white mice. As for the Universe you'll have to convince me it wasn't created by the Great Green Arkleseizure.

author: watchmaker
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 28, 2023, 03:22:29 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on December 28, 2023, 01:54:30 pmThis is my point about having a vetted sticky that provides the essential information about how to be safe while you learn. I was taught in one of those setups in the 1960s. The instructor was present and taught safety at every new entry point. Students were removed from the lab if they were careless for whatever reason (fine line between carelessness and opportunity to learn).Today many people are coming from PC based devices to a true bench environment and have no idea what the costs can be. To use the chainsaw analogy again: People who buy chainsaws after a hurricane and think because they watched AxeMen or some variant they know what they are doing (in flip flops no less).No, not everyone will read it, but it then becomes a simple link when such questions are asked.Dave has videos that hit many of these aspects, but it might be useful if there was one self contained video or playlist.Regards,Dewey

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2023, 06:58:20 pm
content: I noticed this topic is a 'Fast Mover', not sure if maybe there is a web site term for that kind of topic ?At any rate any response I've had for EPAIII for example gets old and with many other newer responders so sorry if my comments are dated, somewhat (it's only a matter of some minutes).My comment, RE: Antivax'er labels put on people:Got the usual seasonal FLU SHOT, first off it made my shoulder muscle really sore! But now, that whole, left arm is weak and sore...the shot was in September...more than 3 months should have been sufficient for the arm muscles to recover.Thing is, I'm reluctant to bring the subject up, as folks are SOOO propagandized these days, (it's like a kindergarten play-pen out there these days). I'll be labeled as an anti-vaxxing etc.etc.etc. with about 40 'slanderous' fictional labels, like racist etc.etc.etc.Powerful politician (you'd rec the name) using terms like 'mis-dis-information' a humourous yet pathetic symptom, of the modern stereotype Really Smart Dumb-ass ...prosecutor, doctor, Governor.So I'm intimidated. Not by some individual, but I'd just rather skip the accusations; 'Anti-vax' etc. etc. Many folks like me have gone underground these days.The News is saying that it's a Social Virus type affliction...then they flash a 'CoronaVirus' looking round foam thingy, to make their point.So clever; that foam thingy, lifted straight out of the 'Covid19' images folder.I usually SKIP the seasonal shots, altogether

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2023, 07:26:46 pm
content: Quote from: RJSV on December 28, 2023, 06:58:20 pmQue? Whaton earthhas that word salad got to do with this thread? Is it intended to raise the question of what to do when someone tries to derail a thread?On second thoughts,please don't tell us.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2023, 08:16:06 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on December 28, 2023, 07:26:46 pmIt seems to make a reasonable amount of sense, me. But I'm not 100% sure, I have correctly understood what was said. Also, I can understand, why it might not make sense, to everyone.What I think they are saying, is that these days. It is NOT just a problem of saying something, which might be *WRONG*, technically speaking, on the forum, or while speaking to people.But also there is a risk, of being labeled, with some of those modern terms, such as audiophile, free energy nut, anti-vaxer, anti-5g nut job, flat-earther etc.Just for expressing your scientific comments.

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2023, 08:33:23 pm
content: Yup, you got it right.The frustration comes out, when (I) mimic some politician's word salad. (I tried to refrain from long explanation, as not oriented towards bugging people here,...(they asked that I refrain from the long-winded response, that's fair enough).

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2023, 10:28:37 pm
content: Quote from: EPAIII on December 28, 2023, 04:53:41 amI don't know if that is the main point though, yes current theories can be flawed and we should be free to discuss alternatives, you are correct.But is flat earth worth discussing? Its very clearly done and dusted, if you come in here spouting endless flat earth claims, and don't read the evidence showing you are wrong, should you not be banned?

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2023, 11:10:52 pm
content: Quote from: thm_w on December 28, 2023, 10:28:37 pmIf it isn't worth discussing, then don't. I'll admit to having been sucked into some discussions that seem silly in retrospect, but that's on me. I wouldn't want to see people being banned to protect me from my own stupidity. At some point a ban is necessary, but it is a drastic step that I'd like to see reserved for the most egregious cases.

author: fourfathom
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2023, 11:37:05 pm
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on December 28, 2023, 11:10:52 pmIn spite of what George Bernard Shaw said, sometimes it's fun to get down in the mud and wrestle with the pig. For a while, anyway.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 28, 2023, 11:41:07 pm
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on December 28, 2023, 11:10:52 pm"Worth" is down to the individual. I enjoy watching flat earth videos for example. I enjoy trying to learn about the thought process (and I use that term very loosely) and the psychology behind these lunatics. If nothing else, it's somewhat entertaining watching stupid people.Likewise, I'm not religious in any sense of the word, but I do enjoy discussing religious concepts with people, trying to understand their perspective on things.Quote from: fourfathom on December 28, 2023, 11:37:05 pmThis! Couldn't have put it better myself.

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2023, 11:51:55 pm
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on December 28, 2023, 11:10:52 pmSure, so we'd agree that at some point it is a valid call. And in this case, would agree the line was not crossed.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 29, 2023, 12:16:24 am
content: Quote from: RJSV on December 28, 2023, 06:58:20 pmRe your flu shot:-Have you entertained the possibility that your current problem was NOT caused by the needle?Perhaps there is something else seriously wrong with your arm, which needs investigation.The possibility exists that if there is, it is why you had such a bad reaction to the shot.When I had Covid, a month or so back, it affected my balance a bit, & while feeding the dogs, I fell, hurting my back on the metal tubing of the dog bed.It was very sore, but only indirectly connected to Covid.I do feel that Covid enhanced the pain & prolonged it, but it is "just a feeling".Confusing coincidence with causality has caused a lot of witch hunts (real ones) in the past.

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 29, 2023, 12:35:36 am
content: Yeah, but I'm in a typical set of doctors and a ring network of specialist doctors, exceeding my expertise, (supposedly). The 'prime' person is too lazy to coordinate the other 9 or 10 specialists, leaving myself to take the reins...Now, whenever I encounter a doctor using common sense and paying attention, rather than shopping the patient out to yet another self-absorbed specialist, I feel thankful.One of the good ones has a PHD in management, along with the medical stuff.

author: Andy Chee
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 29, 2023, 01:00:26 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on December 27, 2023, 09:59:40 amInteresting you mention whirlpool moderation. Whirlpool locks threads for ongoing "thread vandalism", where the OP heavily edits their posts well after the fact, often to change the entire context of their argument, especially in situations where the OP is being heavily criticised.I just noticed an instance of "thread vandalism" here:Quote from: Someone on December 29, 2023, 12:14:59 am

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 29, 2023, 01:00:59 am
content: Quote from: tggzzz on December 28, 2023, 01:54:30 pmTraditional 'scope probes (those from legitimate sources)areOK when connected to the mains, if a number of important precautions are taken.In many cases, for a quick look at the mains, just to "see if it is there", there is no need to attach the ground clip to anything, as there is a sufficiently good return path to ground via the neutral/ground connection at the power inlet to the building.Another method which was used is the "quasi-differential" one, using the CH1+CH2 setting of the 'scope.These methods were quite adequate in the past, when differential probes were similar in cost to a small car but are probably not worthwhile when such probes are relatively cheap, especially for beginners.One problem is that beginners get a nice new shiny DSO, but have no analog signal sources to look at, unlike oldsters like myself, who first got our hot, sweaty little hands on a 'scope in a work situation, with multiple signal sources.We also knew that if we wrecked anything, we would incur the wrath of the Boss--not something to take lightly!!!Our beginner has zilch, & probably hasn't read the instructions to know about the cal output square wave, they can't look at a transformer secondary (even their "wall warts" are switch mode) so their "bright, enquiring little minds" fix on the mains as a convenient source.As to "floating a 'scope"----- in all my years in Electronics, I have seen it done once.That was being supervised by an EE, a Supervising Tech, a Senior Tech, & most important of all a lowly Tech with his hand on the Main circuit breaker handle.After that one test, the 'scope was immediately returned to standard configuration.Apart from that one time, it was NO!, NO!, NO!, NO!So if a beginner can organise the personal attendance of a similar lot of expertise on the day, itmightbe OK!

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 29, 2023, 01:30:02 am
content: Quote from: Andy Chee on December 29, 2023, 01:00:26 amAnother thing that Whirlpool do is to tolerate people who go "off topic" making posts that agree with the "approved narrative", even when the "narrative" is the most arrant nonsense.Post a reply refuting such stuff & setting out the facts, & your post will be deleted as "off topic".If you try to add a breath of commonsense to enough threads, you can incur a lifetime ban.I was banned from the politics forum, but they gracefully allowed me to use the other forums,I told them in ever such a nice fashion that they could shove it!Then there is the sports site "The Roar", where if you disagree with the OP, your posting is very likely to disappear.

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 29, 2023, 01:33:00 am
content: Quote from: vk6zgo on December 29, 2023, 12:16:24 amThat sucks, multiple types of viruses can definitely directly cause inner ear issues: "The inner ear is one of the neurological systems that the virus may attack, and the resulting damage may cause vertigo and/or tinnitus". I had similar issues but didn't notice any illness prior... so not sure of the cause.https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/labyrinthitis/https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10174602/https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9531925/Quote from: RJSV on December 28, 2023, 06:58:20 pmYes 3 months should be enough to resolve any muscle pain, majority of side effects were gone within 3 days in this study, some small percentage lasted 2 weeks:https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9898704/BUT one thing you have to keep in mind, if your arm was temporarily weak and you changed your behavior to not use the muscles in that arm, it can become even weaker. You may need physiotherapy to strengthen and re-accustom yourself. If your posture is bad enough it can pinch and irritate nerves, causing weakness.You can't always expect things to just get better on their own.

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 29, 2023, 02:11:04 am
content: My point is that the patient shouldn't really be the last bastion of common sense, (leaving the personal gripes out of direct discussion.)It's nice to track and verify any decisions, hopefully using common sense, but a patient shouldn't be first middle and last 'care expert'.I mean, heck, I can't legally prescribe medications, some of which are very dangerous.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 29, 2023, 06:22:17 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on December 27, 2023, 11:33:27 pmWell, not quite. It's a simulation of a simulation of a simulation of a ...

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 29, 2023, 07:51:26 am
content: Talking about going off topic, this thread is full of itDid not want to participate, but since this thread was started after reinstating electrodacus and to discuss when to ban someone from the forum just because he/she is wrong despite being the thread owner (OP).I myself see no reason to ban anyone just because they are wrong. Could think of other behavior as perfect ground for banning, but that is not the issue here. It is quite clear that one can ignore threads/members one does not agree on or like. Freedom of speech should rule here, just as the freedom to ignore is a sort of right just as well.What I did notice is that electrodacus took the opportunity of being back to start a new thread with the same question already raised earlier in thisthread. In itself no harm in it, but it amazes me that a lot of the same more established members jump on it to again try to reason with the unreasonableSure I had my fun with it last year, but got tired of a lot of the nonsense, so I try to stick to worthwhile questions to put in a word, though not a lot due to my declining ability to concentrate and increasing fatigue when working on projects. Chronic illness sucks.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 29, 2023, 08:02:07 am
content: just don't be wrong on a welding forumits like this when you there is video evidence of someone attempting to arc weldthey really wanna do a 'bend test'. not sure if its on your work piece though.

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 29, 2023, 08:28:00 am
content: Quote from: spork on December 29, 2023, 08:16:39 amDepends on his awareness of it.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 29, 2023, 11:06:09 am
content: Quote from: Andy Chee on December 29, 2023, 01:00:26 amIt is extremely annoying to have to do that. Fortunately on this forum there are only a small number of similarly disreputable people - you can all guess who I'm thinking of!

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 29, 2023, 11:19:28 am
content: Quote from: spork on December 29, 2023, 02:17:32 amJust so. "Common sense isn't".In cases where a reputable person has a different opinion, I make an effort to understand the cause of the different opinion. That way I learn something, even if I don't change my opinion. There are a few people I listen toverycarefully whenever they disagree with meTalking to medics is just like talking to engineers or lawyers. The key point is to understand the different options, to enumerate the questions that differentiate between the options, and make sure you get and understand the answers to the questions (or why the question isn't important).

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 29, 2023, 11:33:25 am
content: Quote from: tggzzz on December 28, 2023, 01:54:30 pmI hadn't spotted this thread, but I like seeing that the mods have locked ithttps://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/isolation-of-the-oscilloscope-from-the-mains-with-two-transformers/msg5244183/#msg5244183

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 29, 2023, 03:10:11 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on December 29, 2023, 11:33:25 amI was annoyed with the OP and done with the thread after his response to my query about fuses, but I really don't see why the thread needed locking. Thread locks and bans are certainly necessary at times when they drift off course, but this one had merely drifted into a conversation regarding the details of his control circuit. Perhaps there is more to the story.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 29, 2023, 04:45:46 pm
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on December 29, 2023, 03:10:11 pmAgreed; his response was noteworthy, and could be regarded as damning evidence.My eyebrows went up slightly earlier, when the OP wroteQuoteThat exemplifies my point in this thread, viz "... They never add the necessary pre-conditions, and - disgracefully IMHO - often belittle or deny them."Given the danger in his proposals and his attitude to people that attempt to warn him, I think it is worth "officially warning" people who come alonglaterthat the whole thread is highly suspect and should be ignored.Should the OP be banned for that? Not for that alone, IMHO, but if he persisted with the attitude anddangerousincompetence it might just be worth considering.We all make mistakes. What matters is how we respond when that is pointed out.

author: Neomys Sapiens
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 29, 2023, 08:49:56 pm
content: When discussing this, one should keep in mind a sequence of events predating the existence of this forum by many years. A certain Mr. Ivor Catt did use crude rhetorics in order to put established facts into question. This did not only poison the exchange on ideas and comment in the former publication 'Electronics & Wireless World' to a degree, where sane people would simply disregard the pertaining section, but it might also bring calamities to someone being at the start of his career and getting the erroneous notion that you can argue about basic physics with nothing more than mere sophistries.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 29, 2023, 08:52:44 pm
content: QuoteReminds me of one of my university lecturers who used to complain about the PhD students in the lab, and the dangerous things they would manage to do.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 29, 2023, 09:23:11 pm
content: Quote from: pcprogrammer on December 29, 2023, 08:28:00 amWithout going into details, are we dealing with a difficult personality here? I'm asking because he is a frequent contributor, and it might have went way over my head.

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 29, 2023, 11:29:05 pm
content: Well, it happened; (I just wasn't expecting a quick go, with someone questioning my politics, after I'd posted...here!). Amazing.By way of a couple of PM,s someone here wanted to delve 'into my politics', (although I partially was to blame, for posting regarding fears of being labeled or mis-labled). Lol, let em speculate.(For more on that, please refer back to yesterday in this thread, regarding speculation of some 'bad' vaccination reaction...causing folks to speculate off the deep end.Now, I'm not going into detail, that political stuff isn't supposed to be posted, let's just say that a candidate, 'John Smith' has been associated with being 'anti-vaxer', and I felt intimidated in even mentioning (vaccinations).So, it happen, here, as I got the immediate question posed..."Was I a 'John Smith' supporter, wishing to create a 'Monarchy', somehow by way of a vaccination science comment ?"Ridiculous, but that makes my point right here!But also, I now realize that the PM messages can be an avenue for those wishing to bypass the forum standards. Not good.Otherwise, some of my responses, would have needed to delve into actual wartime (current events) and THAT has no place here. I'm learning.A SORE ARM does not = Monarchy advocationThank you (Spork)

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2023, 01:04:31 am
content: Quote from: spork on December 30, 2023, 12:07:02 amCan you, kindly, fuck off?Some people do, in fact, have adverse reactions, and being concerned about it is absolutely valid.I didn't gather the impression that RJSV was "Just Asking Questions" (I don't have a specific cite cutting to the nature of this rhetorical practice, but any of this playlist illustrates the general strategies ably  ), and indeed the point was that, becauseIt'S BeEn PoLitICiZeD, onecannot even raisethat valid and necessary concern; thus it's a "I would like to talk about X but not in the way that everyone now thinks being concerned about X means denying X". Which, is the form of that post, and which, because of exactly this rhetorical environment, has now been pushed to the only reasonable way to talk about it.And you still missed it.Another case in point: it's impossible to discuss Palestine, because any simple statement, for or against either party, has been co-opted into areductio ad absurdumaccusing one of supporting the other's massacres, whether directly, or by way of saying of course they can defend themselves (conveniently ignoring the "don't start nothin', won't be nothin'" of the actual situation). One must make ones' nuance on the situation clear as a predicate to further conversation, which, you will notice, makes the whole process much more annoying to engage in -- and thus speech is chilled.Tim Because I can't hyperlink anything on YT, enjoy the embed:

author: coromonadalix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2023, 01:13:23 am
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on December 29, 2023, 03:10:11 pmnow back with a 3rd thread loll this is a WRONGelectrodacus this is a WRONGand sadly in 2023 the eevblog forum is being abused and pushed into corners until Dave or some strong mods intervene ....when a thread is now at least 2 pages long or over 2 pages and nothing is clear, it is obvioulsy WRONG

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2023, 01:17:44 am
content: anddddddd thread locked due to personal attacks and politics. Just like clockwork.

author: .RC.
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2023, 01:28:15 am
content: Quote from: T3sl4co1l on December 30, 2023, 01:04:31 amI lasted ten seconds on that video. I have come to the conclusion that most people do not have the faintest idea of what left and right is. And I include myself in that group.I look at the USSR and they were, pro industry, pro nuclear, pro agriculture, pro war, pro pretty much everything except individual freedoms. And they are apparently left.Then I look at the USA. At the same time period they were. pro nuclear, pro industry, in fact pro everything the USSR was except they were mostly pro freedoms, but people were not all free. And they were apparently right.These days it all is highly confused. Today by many self proclaimed left wingers the USSR would be right wing because of all the pro nuclear and pro industry and pro agriculture etc ideals.But right wingers are all for controlling people. We have big businesses supposedly should be right wing by old standards, that are more and more wanting to remove individual freedoms and curtail things. We have "right wingers" wanting this that or the other done.Hell today you could even argue Nazi Germany was left wing the way they were socialist in nature.So when people go on about alt right or trumpies, or leninists or socialists or capitalists or whatever. I think the vast majority of them have no freaking idea what category they are trying to lump groups into.I think that people will convince themselves that they are right and want to make sure others only do what they want them to do.It is an eternal battle that will be forever ongoing. However I do feel the world will fracture at a point and it seems to be getting closer.

author: .RC.
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2023, 01:56:02 am
content: Quote from: spork on December 30, 2023, 01:38:35 amBut what is a conservative. I often hear conservative's do not want change. So therefore the USA is not conservative because of the huge advancements in technology that country has created.I hear progressive's want change. But find me an environmental progressive that is say pro farmer land clearing to create more wealth for everyone? The self proclaimed environment progressives want everything locked up and remain static, so therefore they are conservative however when it comes to say solar farms and wind turbines, it is damn the environment.I find that most people claiming to be "progressive" are people who have been bought up and want change on things that do not affect them. I find them mostly really ignorant of reality because their entire life they have been protected and are fully institutionalised. Often they work in humanities type occupations.Most people are a mish mash of both conservative and progressive. Like most people will for example think groups like unions are healthy but they also want the freedom to choose.

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2023, 01:56:26 am
content: Dont worry .RC., or not too much.Sounds maybe like ass-kissing, but I actually tried to imagine:"What would Dave be thinking ? Should I point out every nuance of somebody's crappy response, or what ? I think that (Dave) likely wouldn't be encouraging too much flame, as insults tend to impact others, in political arguments".That's what I shifted to, cooling down and letting (this) go, for a time.Surprised to see Tim jump in, (thanks), and how easily HE got nearly labeled a Trumpian (or whatever). So now we've got TWO near-Trumpsters, delusional, and...what was the other knee-jerk insult ? Not worth recalling.I think Tim's response was a little heated, but that's what they call 'appropriate', given the out of balance mud-slinging. See how quickly HE got labeled, after voicing that: (labeling Tim as a 'probable MAGA'....)Probable MAGA, probable racist, probable delusional....boy those labels come spewing out so quickly. (Maybe probably no self-control). And to think I gave the dude my personal phone number (in the PM yesterday).I'm going to do what Dave would want, and get back to the EE work that takes place here in the forum.- Rick

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2023, 02:26:16 am
content: My God, you feel compelled to throw a new label at someone, with each post you labor on.What, are you just parked here all night, defending something, I guess.

author: .RC.
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2023, 02:28:54 am
content: Quote from: RJSV on December 30, 2023, 01:56:26 amI gave up worrying what people write about me or think of me on internet forums a decade or more ago. It is why when asking for advice, read everyone's opinions and back it up with a bit of independent research elsewhere.If someone comes across all hysterical screaming "won't someone think of the children" yea nah, more often then not, unless you have stumbled on a full on echo chamber full of morons like some sub reddits and the screamer is actually is going off about a valid concern then might be wise not to treat them like the messiah.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2023, 03:29:11 am
content: Quote from: .RC. on December 30, 2023, 01:28:15 amAlone left vs right can mean almost anything, it needs context.More confusing as different (arbitrarily defined/imagined) dimensions of policy exist, usually with their own left/right directions:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_spectrumSo a party/position/person can be "hard right" in some direction and not others, which is why it needs explicitly describing the axis/dimension (or just topic) on which that leaning is being applied/discussed.

author: Ian.M
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2023, 03:41:44 am
content: Per clause five of ourForum Rules:Quoteanyone who drags US politics in to any discussion, especially in the runup to a US Presidential election, is unequivocally *WRONG*, and per clause two:Quoteanyone who makes a pejorative reference to another user's personal political affiliation should GTFO before our moderators are forced to ban you.If I'm making you feel uncomfortable, just maybe you should reconsider your recent posts, take a holiday from these forums till after the new year, and comeback with the resolution not to be drawn into breaking the rules by trolls.--I am not an EEVblog moderator , nor do I play one on TV!

author: Ian.M
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2023, 03:57:15 am
content: Quote from: spork on December 30, 2023, 03:47:59 amQuoted for preservation.My argument rests!--I prefer not to waste our moderators time by reporting OT storms in teacups . . .

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 30, 2023, 04:07:03 am
content: I think this thread has served its purpose. Probably time it gets locked.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 30, 2023, 09:58:59 pm
content: Quote from: spork on December 30, 2023, 03:01:50 amSpork, please leave this thread. The slack moderators give established users does not extend to new accounts, and you are really pushing it.