long PC power supply - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 08, 2020, 02:57:20 am
content: I am very disappointed by modern high power PSU because they are built like micro phone chargers.Is there a power supply thats got all the nice features (like the 80%+ rating platinum etc) that fits in the standard PSU case but is elongated on the Z axis so it does not have such high density? Even like two inches. I have about 7 inches of spare room in my case and I would prefer it to be a longer same size brick then having to drill more holes in it (I would need to make a bracket).I am looking at like 800W. The case I have is 2 bay PSU, so it can be taller but I am not sure that would help. I want something without so many fucking riser cards (tomb stones) in it. I want to look at it sideways and see a single PCB on the bottom not a converging spiral of PCB, I am sure they want to go full logarithmic spiral now, complete with a black hole in the middle and polar vortexes of plasma when it goes bad. Pizza, not lasagna and defiantly not a pizza roll.think spaceballs

author: Doctorandus_P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2020, 08:19:21 pm
content: Consumer market PC power supplies are pretty much standardized into the same (almost) square bricks, which is ... ATX standard:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_supply_unit_(computer)In the market for servers there are some other form factors used.At:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_supply_unit_(computer)#Other_form_factorsI see a "flexATX" which is a bit more elongated.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 18, 2020, 08:35:17 pm
content: Quote from: coppercone2 on March 08, 2020, 02:57:20 amI bought such elongated 1kW PSU around 12 years ago but it makes little sense nowadays. Simply because it is not needed as modern high power PSUs have very high efficiency thus large radiators are not needed. Larger size will only increase use of materials and power loses in copper traces. Also because it's not standard it might not fit in some cases. And for measly 800W it makes even less sense.

author: rdl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2020, 09:15:41 pm
content: It's not really clear what you are looking for as far as HxWxD. If you want just a single board inside look at 1u server power supplies.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2020, 09:17:41 pm
content: You're asking for a longer design? Why? Do you think it'll help cooling? Modern supplies are so efficient they often don't even turn their fan on.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2020, 10:06:30 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on March 18, 2020, 09:17:41 pmthey are difficult to fix with all the fucking tomb stones everywhere and I think it leads to bad design or weird decisions based on EMI. Nice flat design like a Sorenesen. This thing is filled with tuning forks and weird shit like transformers mounted on daughter boards.

author: PKTKS
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2020, 04:01:09 pm
content: Quote from: coppercone2 on March 18, 2020, 10:06:30 pmThey were not meant to be fixed at all.They introduced those "folkloric adorable ratings" to cloudwhat underlays the legislation today.Legislators driven by mains providers lobby are makingdemands (high demands) for "green" efficient things..so to spare heavy investments urged needed by the mains grid..They crammed a bunch of stuff inside the ATX and left no spacealmost for a finger... some not even a hairSo we are paying a "PSU" which actually does the mains providerjob (aka Power Factor Correction) with crappy "patented" tech..and Load Regulation left aside.. CLOUDY by those funny ratingsplus gold platinum... WTF garbageIf you are not aware of using two ATX of 500W to provide asane power check how some folks glue together 2 cheapvery affordable ATX PSUs w/ HALF BRIDGE no PFC almost 80%efficient - plenty space inside...One your system + One dedicated to GPU at 12V only.Plus that nice board you can buy EBAY ALI just some dozen cents.They work far more reliable than an enormous 1000W PSUactually doing PFC for your mains provider..downside the 2 cases.. onlyPaul

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 19, 2020, 05:08:06 pm
content: Quote from: PKTKS on March 19, 2020, 04:01:09 pmYou just described some pure junk (illegal in EU) not even qualifying to 80+ basic, not to say bronze, silver, gold... efficiency rating. FYI with our electricity prices buying cheap psu in long term will cost more in electricity than buying more expensive model. Oh, and your "almost 80%" wastes more than 2 times more power than 80+ gold PSU. Not to say that electronic electricity meters often report significantly higher than actual consumption when present with load with distorted current. BTW tying 2 PSUs is not that straightforward as you might think. 1. There is no place for second PSU in standard case. 2. Leaving 3.3V/5V without load often leaves 12V rail with reduced voltage under load. Secondary PSU may not even start due to protection. And you cannot connect power rails in parallel. 3. It may cause issues at computer startup even when both of them start.QuoteBS. It's simply ridiculous that two (4 times higher chance of single unit failure) PSUs built with cheap parts are more reliable than single PSU built with more expensive parts.

author: PKTKS
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 20, 2020, 11:17:21 am
content: Quote from: wraper on March 19, 2020, 05:08:06 pmAgreed. I do consider that a junk solution as well.I will put some more considerations which i think willmake we agree more than disagree... hopefully"Illegal" I will not even try to enter the merit as longas the issue is "de facto" caused by legislation.I will put just solutions - good ones - sustainablecheaper and good enough in any normal condition.Quote from: wraper on March 19, 2020, 05:08:06 pmNo. You may (should) refer to sites dedicated in doing"ratings (silver/bronze..) comparisons..". To our discussionall things will have the bottom line below:- Those ratings apply to fully loaded (or 70% loaded) PSUs.- ok above 80% of load some present "higher" "efficient" ratings- 84%... 85% .. some 88%... at 80% of load.. (on 1000W PSU..)- that is a lot... now.. BELOW 50% load... a DAMN CRAPY PROBLEM ..those designs present "efficient" well below 70% 60% .. typically(will not put this here - google the folks which do tests far better than me..)(those 1000W gold silver gizmos are crappy garbage under light loads)Well unless (EVERYBODY) start using 1000W PSUs at 80% or 90% load...we have a real scary scalable problem of having less than 60% efficientPSUs under "idle"..No controversy - tests are well made.. both apply- high ratings under high loads- crappy ratings under light loads.Now considering an average HALF-BRIDGE design with PROS:- easily fixable - sustainable design- RATINGS ARE just marginally lower like 78% or 80% efficient- WORKS THE SAME WAY UNDER LIGHT or HEAVY LOADS FULL TIME- RESULTS ARE SCALABLE - you can say pretty confident 78% efficient- THAT SHOULD BE MORE THAN GOOD ENOUGH - by all means- APART (obviously) the legislation.. - the lobby and required investments inbetter power grids.. - out of discussion hereBy using 2x 500W ATX units (agreed it is a junk solution) PROs:- you have 1000W not even warm solution - cheap reliable repairable- EFFICIENT - as long as 78% is good enough- 99% supervisors monitors the 5V ALW line.. good- it is easy to put a dummy load of 1A on that line using just 12V to GPU- 12 load regulation? no! GPUs uses the 12V inputs for 1 Volt Vcore-VRM- any side effect ? NONE - GPUs works damn fine using a dedicated 12V railANY CONs? yes a secondary ATX sized board or case...- is it GOOD ? No. obviously not - just a compromise..- CHEAP? Yes - a 1000W/1600W PSU is costing U$500 or U$800 or even U$10003x 500W ATX HALF-BRIDGE designs are under 80 box only- RELIABLE? - YES - as long as you use a line conditioner for them- EXPENSIVE? NO - they work just fine with a NORMAL non-sinus models- while 1000W PSU would require a VERY EXPENSIVE TRUE SINE 3KVA inverter..- I would rather wasting 80 box in that junk than $500 in the other.. (plus inverter)Hope we agree more than disagree at this pointconsidering that expending at least 5x to 8x timesjust to power a GPU is not clever.New ATX12VO is not here by choice..the ATX thing reached a level of non sense based on thosepaid "ratings" and certificates...Last comment - I checked this solution myselfbeing far more adequate than expected.Question is how you manage the second case.The only problem so far.Paul

author: rrinker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 20, 2020, 12:44:08 pm
content: Most people buy way too big a power supply - negating much of the "high efficiency" rating.There have been a few ATX+ sized power supplies, if you have a case that can fit such a thing. Many physically can, but then the extra length covers up the slots for the cables to go through to make a neat wiring job.The good ones these days - have 10 year or more warranties on them. I'm not too worried. I've got 7 and 8 year old machines still running fine.I recently put together a new server. When completed, it will have 32GB RAM, 2 network cards, 2x M.2 SSDs, 2x SATA SSDs, and 4x SATA spinning rust. Cheapest video card I could find, since it doesn't need to be one of those high power gaming things. I got a 550 watt power supply - and even that may actually be too much to operate in the best efficiency range, but most smaller ones stop being modular so all the cables have to be dealt with. This one has enough SATA power connectors to handle the final system. And neatly divided, too, one of them has 2 connectors, which can server the SATA SSDs which mount on the back of the motherboard tray, and another has 4 connectors for the 3.5" ones that mount in the drive bays. 80+ Gold, built like a brick dunny with all top brand caps (the best review sites actually take these things apart and provide detailed pictures of the guts, in addition to all the load tests), and has a 10 year warranty.I'm impressed by this system enough that I want to replace my main desktop with the same thing, only swap all the drives out for just a single M.2 SSD, ditch the second network adapter, and put a real video card in. I think 550 watts will still be enough.

author: PKTKS
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 20, 2020, 01:42:34 pm
content: Quote from: rrinker on March 20, 2020, 12:44:08 pmThey do. Mostly they just are not aware of facts.Induced by those "is better" propagandaGamers are on top of the list.Quote from: rrinker on March 20, 2020, 12:44:08 pmTRUE. I have considered SERVER CLASS PSUs but ...they are not cheaperthey are not suited as ATX just replace and goseveral problems as a server case has ZERO relation with a GAMERcase... much like related WITH LEDs and glass covers...while server cases are pretty much built around the FANS...Quote from: rrinker on March 20, 2020, 12:44:08 pmMay be in US even EU things work just fine by RMA (replacement my best guess)But not here. RMA here is far too much "complicated"Warranty if so does not even reach 2 years. A year typical.Add that double price per taxes and other expenses.Even so I doubt a warranty of 3 or 5 years will make any difference...Problem will be solved by new ATX12VO form factor.HopefullyPaul

author: rrinker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 20, 2020, 02:02:44 pm
content: Perhaps they don't sell the same models in your country, but if they are willing to offer 10 year warranty replacement on the product, that tells me they have confidence that not enough will fail in that time period to ruin their profits. I could get the same power capacity at less than half the cost if I bought a much cheaper brand - which would only have a 1 or maybe 2 year warranty. Because it would be made with the cheapest components possible to save money, using an old design, possibly even fake parts (or at least not caring enough about the supply chain to know if they got a genuine controller chip or some fake).This whole gamer silliness just annoys me. RGB everything - fans, on the MB itself, power supplies, the FREAKING CABLES, RAM modules, SSDs - I think they've pretty much managed to put RGB lighting on every possible object that goes into the computer now. All that wasted money that could have paid the difference to the next better video card and you know, actually improved gaming performance. The end result is I have to get a motherboard with a ton of things I don't want or need, just to get the features I do want. The cheaper ones without RGB controls and stuff share more ports, or use some crappy Ethernet chipset. I have never ever build a computer with a clear window on the side - my computers have always been parked on the floor next to my desk where no one would see such a window anyway. I kind of equate these people that go for this stuff to the ones who take a small Honda and replace the exhaust with a sewer pipe and cut the springs to lower the ride height and think they now have a 'sports car'. And then get annoyed when my 27 year old slow pickup truck pulls away faster.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 20, 2020, 02:11:16 pm
content: Quote from: PKTKS on March 20, 2020, 11:17:21 amAbove is the picture with requirements for certification. As you can see there is required efficiency at 20% load and even 10% for titanium. And the best efficiency should be at around 50% load.QuoteUsing two PSUs only reduces efficiency because both of them use power required to just run. Even without considering transferring any energy to load. 78% efficiency is abysmally bad these days.QuoteThere are a lot of issues with that. For example crappy 12V regulation when lower voltage rails are not loaded as I mentioned above.

author: PKTKS
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 20, 2020, 02:12:57 pm
content: Quote from: rrinker on March 20, 2020, 02:02:44 pmHard to say. But from experience ?I would not buy that "10 warranty bait"At the brink of a whole new form factor I wouldnot even consider that an issue.You see... I can power VideoCards for repair withmy bench PSU just fine ... using an external safe securebench PSU combined with a MOBO setup..It is not a big deal to power a power hungry GPU..the problem is putting such solution into a proper case.At the brink of this new ATX form factor I thinkwe better wait than just get those warranty baitsIn a couple of years those 1000W beasts won't matter.Paul

author: PKTKS
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 20, 2020, 02:16:59 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on March 20, 2020, 02:11:16 pmI SAW THAT... Actually I see these "WALLS OF STICKERS"everywhere - and there are a lot of stickers...I keep a ****VERY*** close track on folks doing real world tests..These stickers don't hold on real world.above 800W PFC designs really sucks with light (idle) loads.The tests are wide available on the net...even certificates from people .. not related w/gov.agn.No matter the bait they published -- there is a **VERY** stronglobby of patent holders and share holders behind that certificates.Another whole discussionPaul

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 20, 2020, 02:26:27 pm
content: Quote from: PKTKS on March 20, 2020, 02:16:59 pmThey hold to certifications pretty well according to reviewer tests. Even in questionable cases it's something like 1-2% below efficiency that must be according to certification. Certainly better than abysmal 78% efficiency you promote.QuoteOf course Ecos Consulting (80 plus) has strong intention everyone using their certification (they get money from that). But that ends about there. As for patents I dunno what you are talking about.

author: PKTKS
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 20, 2020, 02:36:49 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on March 20, 2020, 02:26:27 pmIt obvious depends upon the tests..But we agree very well in the above (bolded - no upper caps) point ..They do a *very* good money from that stickers..The patent issues is simple:- several semi corp. invested a lot building PFC dedicated controllers- they were driven by legislators driven by other lobby - a supply chain- dedicated PFC chips suited for doing those marvelous stickers looking good.We now should pay those investments by 8x times the price ofperfect good 78% efficient solution. Is that BAD? really ?Marginally better 82% or 84% 8x times the price?You got the point very well.If 8x times more costly is not argument enough..we just wait the new ATX12VO ..And I doubt they will dump those stickers.. eithereven being no longer necessaryPaul

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 20, 2020, 02:47:21 pm
content: Quote from: PKTKS on March 20, 2020, 02:36:49 pmSome first grade bullshit here. You saying that 80+ bronze (or even basic @ 230V) which are the low end are 8x more expensive than crap you promote. You cannot possibly buy PSU with real power rating on a sticker for that cheap.

author: PKTKS
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 20, 2020, 02:51:21 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on March 20, 2020, 02:45:08 pmI just bought 5 (five) last week U$15 box each (around R$70 here). periodThey are regular HALF-BRIDGE designs using the split-capvirtual ground as usual. Each one provides 500W of powerjust fine - at at least 78%.I just don't run them on 230 (although my bench uses a 280VACVARIAC for full load testings) because my mains are 120VRunning fine. At 120VAC 500W with 78% efficient.Normal Line Conditioners with plain semi-sinus UPS.Nothing to complain - good enough solutionAnd just in case I need 1000W more...I would do the tricks of adding another one.No worries - good enough to me - no stickers as wellPaul

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 20, 2020, 02:56:54 pm
content: Quote from: PKTKS on March 20, 2020, 02:51:21 pmThen you are an idiot for buying complete junk. For this money you only can buy crap like Codegen with fake power rating and junk parts inside. And you will be lucky if it survives 20 minutes under 80% load.https://www.newegg.com/raidmax-vortex-rx-500af-v-500w/p/1HU-0061-000A0?&quicklink=true$40 for 500W bronze. 40/8 = $5.

author: PKTKS
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 20, 2020, 03:01:12 pm
content: I won' take andI won't reply insults.. but it is clear thatTHEY HAVE NO STICKERS.no bronze no platinum no gold.. regular PSUsThey are regular - very good quality -indeed they are from the same manufact.which sells those rated stickers ones..Same fab quality. I could even post picturesand things - but.. i guess you value morethe stickers.They don't have stickers.They are (BRAND here) first quality products.Just a choice.Paul

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 20, 2020, 03:04:11 pm
content: Quote from: PKTKS on March 20, 2020, 03:01:12 pmI would be thankful if you post pictures of internals.

author: PKTKS
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 20, 2020, 03:47:23 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on March 20, 2020, 03:04:11 pmNot sure what you expect if different or extraordinary...They are the regular widely available HALF-BRIDGE ATXat least last 20 years standard.Here you have - plain simple Chinese manufct. withpretty decent acceptable quality.For the record:- I CHECKED THE ONE ALREADY OPEN- THEY DO PROVIDE 550W SAFE AND CLEAN - prior to powering off- cooling fan is more than adequate for 500W power- 2 units roughly will do more than 300W eachThere you go - absolute nothing - nada - zero - zipo thing new.Paul

author: PKTKS
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 20, 2020, 04:04:12 pm
content: forgot this last one shot..As you can see I can buy parts for this PSUat dozen quants. very cheap and easy.No hassle not even worry about warranty.ReallyPaul

author: senso
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 20, 2020, 04:42:03 pm
content: So...Your mega PSU's can only make 300Watts, but advertise 500W, and you say that they are nice, and safe and well madeIts so WELL MADE, that the freaking earth wire is not even soldered to the socket nor wired to the chassis, thats so real safe crap right there for sureGotta love some floating chassis..Buy a Seasonic PSU, a 420Watts will cost you 30€, with real ratings and can work at 420 Watts load without bursting into fire.That, or keep ripping your friends/costumers with junk while you pat yourself on your back about how great they are(because they make you a nice profit).

author: PKTKS
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 20, 2020, 04:47:14 pm
content: Quote from: senso on March 20, 2020, 04:42:03 pmI suggest you read again..** IF RUNNING TWO 500W ** (as stated)each will roughly run at 300W. Not even warmAnd no - NO - NO I am not saying they are MEGA INCRIVEL FANTASTIC..They are PLAIN ATX standard - with 78% efficient rated at 500WAnd for the record:- I AM RUNNING THEM ON ALMOST THAT DAILY.- not even remember the day it was setup.Please just DON'T crap valid solid facts into those stickers..pleeease. I DO SELL THOSE STICKERS for IDIOTS..3x the price...they are just idiots and they buy those PSUs for 3x the price.They are not repairable.Live with that.Paul

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 20, 2020, 04:57:07 pm
content: Quote from: PKTKS on March 20, 2020, 04:47:14 pmI thought it was 8x? Make up your mind.For the 8x or now, apparently, 3x, you get higher efficiency, better power factor (yes, I know, you think we should be able to shove whatever we like on the line and let them sort it out, because consumers have no responsibilities whatsoever), longer life, and overall better quality. For idiots only.How many of these repairable supplies do you need to repair? Lots, I guess.

author: PKTKS
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 20, 2020, 04:59:11 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on March 20, 2020, 04:57:07 pmI SELL THEM HERE 3x the price.Hard to figure?some folks do buy that sticker baitPaul

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 20, 2020, 05:00:18 pm
content: Quote from: PKTKS on March 20, 2020, 04:59:11 pmAh, so you apply a huge markup to the really cheap tat for your customers!

author: PKTKS
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 20, 2020, 05:01:58 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on March 20, 2020, 04:57:07 pmActually very few.Properly rated and installed they failed very rarelyAnd the mains here is not all that good.Easy facts:- more space- good air flow- properly rated- easy setup with cheaper line conditioners.- very easy to increase air flow..I can tell you more.. you got it.Paul

author: PKTKS
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 20, 2020, 05:04:59 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on March 20, 2020, 05:00:18 pmActually..... no - NO.First I try an educated way to make it see the waste.When things go haywire and the typical claim thatthose "IS IT 80 PLUS?" GOLD? ... so is crap...appears..I put the sticker price in range.Add that no RMA here and risking having to replacedamn bad crammed design w/new.No chances takenYou want it? you have the stickers..simple supply for demandPaul

author: PKTKS
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 20, 2020, 05:21:05 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on March 20, 2020, 04:57:07 pmTry to put figures for you..Here a typical Thermaltake TP-1500M - BOX (w/STICKERS rated 1500W)will cost (FOB) just purchase around U$350 (in R$ that is a lot.. )Now using the figures above .. which you can also purchasea typical ATX (just marginally inferior ... but no stickers) for just around $15that gives us: U$350 / (3 times $15 = $45 ) = 7.78 timesroughly 8 times the price.Hope you got the figures.Now add that - RISKING NO RMA on RESELLERS - you have the pointPaul

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 20, 2020, 05:22:39 pm
content: Quote from: PKTKS on March 20, 2020, 05:21:05 pmSo you're comparing a properly made 1500W supply to cheap 500W ones?Yes, I get that you're making ridiculous, invalid comparisons to justify selfishness and cheapskatery.

author: PKTKS
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 20, 2020, 05:24:47 pm
content: NEVER.I am stating that you will have 1500Watts power 1/8 the priceVery different thingActually I am so educated that i put some pictures...Like it or not..It works,I USE IT WHENEVER I WANT JUST FINE.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 20, 2020, 05:26:39 pm
content: Quote from: PKTKS on March 20, 2020, 05:24:47 pmAnd I want to try and fit three crap power supplies (by the way - you just claimed two 500W units are good for 300W a piece when improperly paralleled, so how does 3x500 = 1500 in this scenario?) into a case designed for one why?

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 20, 2020, 05:27:16 pm
content: LOL, it's a super mega trash PSU design from early 2000's. Assembled from shit sticks. And what you call supervisor is a clone of TL494. This PSU does not even use MOSFETs for switching, IIRC there should be clones of MJE13007.

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 20, 2020, 05:29:09 pm
content: A power supply shouldn't be "repairable". It should be designed to last more than the expected lifetime of the computer + a large margin. Products that are designed to fail early, but are "repairable", are favored by a small group of DIY fanboys who have no idea how products are designed (who think having products fail is inevitable), but from the environmental viewpoint, this is a catastrophe, because no matter how "repairable" the product is, 99.99% will go unrepaired.

author: PKTKS
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 20, 2020, 05:30:04 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on March 20, 2020, 05:27:16 pmTRUE. HALF BRIDGE are BJT based.TRUE as well - that supervisor is loosely based on 494but it is not 494 - it actually a more recent much better oneWhat is wrong w/ that?Please be specific..WTF is wrong with a perfect working 500W 78% PSU?

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 20, 2020, 05:33:49 pm
content: Quote from: PKTKS on March 20, 2020, 05:30:04 pm78% efficiency sucks so much that it isn't even funny. The amount of cooling required is insane. 22% of 500W is 110W. The electricity cost alone is a problem. The cost of the aluminium in the heatsink is likely more than the cost in silicon in a higher-efficiency device. The life of the electrolytic caps is likely reduced because of so much heat generated around them. But yes, it's "repairable", you can always replace the elcaps every three years.The reason why such low-efficiency designs exists is they are low-tech and simple; the schematics have been around for two decades, and the BOM cost is a bit smaller than a modern design.From the viewpoint of someone who designs switched-mode supplies, I always aim for high efficiencies whenever possible, not only due to the energy usage reasons, but because it tends to make mechanical design, heatsinking, and product reliability so much easier. We actually have to think about how we get rid of the heat.Most of the extra price in higher-efficiency supplies isn't because of the BOM; it's because the added value to the user. The manufacturer can get their share of the saved energy cost.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 20, 2020, 05:35:07 pm
content: Quote from: PKTKS on March 20, 2020, 05:30:04 pmYes it ishttps://datasheetspdf.com/pdf-file/1136779/HuaXin/HS8109/1

author: PKTKS
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 20, 2020, 05:38:32 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on March 20, 2020, 05:35:07 pmActually I have different batches and they differ...HS8109 and WT7520To my opinion on WT7520 is far better.For the record.. I have no problems MODDING 2 boardsinside a large enough case. 1000W at just U$30 is a good pointPaul

author: PKTKS
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 20, 2020, 05:40:20 pm
content: Have also some other brands branded other manufusing UTC7520 (+UTC7606) just fine as wellWTF is wrong with that already proven reliableeasy fixable design?No stickers?

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 20, 2020, 05:41:16 pm
content: Quote from: Siwastaja on March 20, 2020, 05:33:49 pmYou mean they expect to be paid better for doing a better job? Say it ain't so. Minimum wage for all.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 20, 2020, 05:44:56 pm
content: Quote from: PKTKS on March 20, 2020, 05:40:20 pmLow efficiency and poor power factor aren't enough?

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 20, 2020, 05:46:13 pm
content: BTW it's not apparent caps of what brand there are but I've never seen anything other than trashiest trash among the trash inside such PSUs.QuoteReliable my ass. IME it's luck if they survive more than a few years under light load.

author: PKTKS
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 20, 2020, 05:50:16 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on March 20, 2020, 05:44:56 pmNO at 8x the prices , the "LOWER" actually is marginally lowerfrom 78% (actually some tests show typical 80%) to 84%/88%is not all that good.PFC is mostly pushed by legislation - NOBODY CARES PAYING 0.001%more on a pathetic increase of PF.Who cares? just the mains providers lobby.and semi con. manuf. which invested large amounts on patented chipsat 8x the cost? really ? just a sticker?Paul

author: PKTKS
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 20, 2020, 05:53:28 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on March 20, 2020, 05:46:13 pmWell take my word for it - i have no other intention herethan just chat..I DO USE THEM DAILY WITH **FAR** more reliable results.put that figures in decades please..eventually I just replace them for safety (they do get old)Paul

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 20, 2020, 05:54:10 pm
content: Quote from: PKTKS on March 20, 2020, 05:50:16 pmLosses are almost havled. What a joke

author: senso
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 20, 2020, 05:58:06 pm
content: Quote from: PKTKS on March 20, 2020, 05:21:05 pmGoing by your own data, you use two PSU's for a 600Watts load, so going by your 300W per PSU, you need 1500/300 = 5 of your units to reach those stated 1500Watts.Now you are dissipating a nice 1500*0.22 = 330Watts, but dont worry, because 5 PSU's are almost the size of a full ATX case, you can have a full PC chassis with PSU's alone.Oh, and 5 PSU's at you 3x the 15$ price makes the cost to the end user 5*(3*15) = 225$, is it cheap now?Stop being blind..Also a decent 500W(mis typed before as being 420W) Seasonic that will deliver over the rated power will cost you more or less what you are asking your end users, but its more efficient, has PFC, and is not made with the cheapest recycled parts there are known to man..And this is an already cost reduced product...https://aphnetworks.com/reports/seasonic-s12iii-500wYou should spend some time reading some reviews at Jonhy Guru..http://www.jonnyguru.com/And stop comparing your PSU's to 1000 or 1500W PSU's, because no one would invest 4-5K€ in a PC to then install the cheapest PSU they can find, because even with old parts like a Sandy bridge and a GTX480 there is no need for even a 600W PSU..With modern components a 65W CPU and a 100-150W GPU is the norm..

author: PKTKS
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 20, 2020, 06:00:42 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on March 20, 2020, 05:54:10 pmFor the record.. I have some BENCH PSUs which are alsoHALF_BRIDGE designs. - actually ALL OF THEMThey are used EXACTLY TO (try) FIX those bestial 1000W PFC based ones.And they do a fine job based on reliable current-mode UC-384x basedsupervisors which are also easily found ...No complains. The large one rated 1200W UC-38x current modehalf-bridge design.Paul

author: PKTKS
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 20, 2020, 06:04:22 pm
content: Quote from: senso on March 20, 2020, 05:58:06 pmWRONG - read again - TWO 500W rated PSUs for 1000Wor 3x for 1500W - which I NEVER EVER NEEDED.Quote from: senso on March 20, 2020, 05:58:06 pmActually i Follow this guy for almost 5 or 7 years on internet.He went Corsair. - unfortunately Corsair designs are top on problemsI also read other 5 decent folks which do that sticker thing comparison.I am not floating on that.

author: senso
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 20, 2020, 06:05:30 pm
content: Why do you even need a 1000W PSU to fix another?A 1000W load would make sense, not another PSU..Soldering iron to remove some cooper planes?....If nobody cares about PFC you end with a square wave mains and all that entails from there..Nice that you don't care.And from where I am(PT), paying around 0.23€ per kW, a 10% improvement of efficiency by getting a PSU that costs not even more than 5€ compared to your profit margins, it pays itself in a couple months..

author: senso
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 20, 2020, 06:08:07 pm
content: Quote from: PKTKS on March 20, 2020, 06:04:22 pmThey test the PSU's and measure the input and output to assure the buyer that they are in fact complying with what they state, and you dont trust them?And do you measure your PSU efficiency?Because I could also say that I dont float on that and that even that bad 78% value is fake and in reality its much worse.How about ripple?And voltage sag?How about EMI?How about the lack of earthing that you avoided even talking about?

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 20, 2020, 06:10:43 pm
content: Quote from: PKTKS on March 20, 2020, 06:04:22 pmQuote from: PKTKS on March 20, 2020, 04:47:14 pmSo which is it? 300W or 500W? Noting that you have no proper way to balance the load.Quote from: senso on March 20, 2020, 06:08:07 pmOh man, I didn't even spot that, I was so distracted by the rest of the lack of quality. So bad. At least they're still including the extra insulation.

author: PKTKS
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 20, 2020, 06:11:48 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on March 20, 2020, 05:54:10 pmNO JOKE - i am not the type of jokeI don't even need to fake a hair or wordPlease check that KRATOS 500W rated 80%Please just retain simple facts.avoid those juvenile rants.Paul

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 20, 2020, 06:15:50 pm
content: Quote from: PKTKS on March 20, 2020, 06:11:48 pmDunno about what they talk but it's a trash of similar design to your junk.

author: PKTKS
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 20, 2020, 06:16:37 pm
content: Quote from: senso on March 20, 2020, 06:08:07 pmAVOID NOTHING - STOP PUSHING MEWELL STATED LINES ARE FULLY ISOLATED WITH LINE CONDITIONERSPlease read the F** thing prior to crapping my person.Paul

author: PKTKS
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 20, 2020, 06:18:11 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on March 20, 2020, 06:15:50 pmYour point is just insulting. OK.For those interested you have "CAPTIONS" on youtube.They have a nice review and several other failed ones as wellHave some fun with those folks.I wont take longer insults

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 20, 2020, 06:19:33 pm
content: Quote from: PKTKS on March 20, 2020, 06:16:37 pmSo putting some 'line conditioners' (which may or may not isolate the line, which is irrelevant to the practice of grounding a PC chassis) in place for your usage completely absolves the manufacturer of responsibility to make a product correctly?

author: senso
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 20, 2020, 06:21:55 pm
content: Because thats a shit rebranded bottom of the barrel PSU as well, its lacking half the components, its like your PSU, being imported from China and branded in Brazil.Most likely it indeed met the sticker specs to be a 80% plus efficient PSU, but after it was "optimized" it doesn't meet the standard anymore, thats a bit on the shaddy side of things..And at the end the guy says that its a 180-200 R$ that makes it a 34-38€, in the same ballpark of yours..Same in Portugal/Spain with the crappy Nox PSU's, you can almost get 300W out of their 750W PSU, but hey, its a 40€ 750W PSU, for the same price you get a 500W Seasonic.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 20, 2020, 06:24:42 pm
content: Quote from: PKTKS on March 20, 2020, 06:18:11 pmSo let's insult the power supply, not you: It's a cheaply made copy of an ancient design which is unlikely to actually comply with any ATX standard (especially current ones) and most certainly does not comply with any other actuallyrequiredstandards from my part of the world. So yes, I will shit all over it until the cows come home.Notgood enough by me,notgood enough by my conscience, andnotgood enough by the legal requirements I and most of the members of this forum do business under.

author: PKTKS
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 20, 2020, 06:57:14 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on March 20, 2020, 06:24:42 pmGO INSULT YOUR MIRROR..best thing you do

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 20, 2020, 10:01:53 pm
content: Needs to be said: Comic Sans, instant fail.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 20, 2020, 11:33:23 pm
content: BTW, talking about 80 plus, you can actually download PSU test results from their website. For example mine @115V. As you can see even @10% load it's 87.74% efficient and should be a few % better @230V.

author: mariush
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2020, 12:15:13 am
content: So basically a small recap.Those cheap power supplies have a few issues.1. No power factor correction.2. Very poor efficiency ... 75% or less at low loads like 50w, which is common these days with modern hardware, and around 78-80% at higher loads like 200-300w. In contrast, modern power supplies can be up to 94-96% efficient.3. They are often NOT capable of reaching the advertised numbers on the label, like for example a 650w power supply will barely do 300-400 watts.Often they plain LIE on the label or add up the numbers incorrectly to trick people into thinking a power supply is capable of more than what it can do in reality.4. They use very cheap electrolytic capacitors which will be subjected to lots of heat at high loads, and OVER TIME (months) they will degrade and cause voltage ripple to increase, which in turn causes VRMs on video cards and other components to work harder and in rare cases to even cause failures in video cardsI've personally had to replace the 5v standby capacitor on several such power supplies, because it failed - as the 5v standby circuit is always on, the capacitor is always hot due to hot diodes being right by the capacitor and fan not spinning while the pc is powered off5. They use very poor quality sleeve bearing fans with little lubrication, and these fans often seize after around 1-2 years of operation (depending on how many hours the psu is used)As a side comment ... looking at that Youtube video with the Kratos power supply... ripple voltages of 50mV and up while technically within ATX standard, are really bad for video cards, it's proven a lot of modern video cards don't like more than 20-30mV of ripple and the vrms sometimes overheat and the cards can't sustain auto boost / turbo modes, and all this results in worse video card performance. To a lesser degree, same applies to CPU vrms.These old designs also don't meet the standards required for very low power sleep states, and often are unstable at ultra low loads like under 5w or so ... and often instead of reliable sleep modes, the computers just lock or shut down because processor can't wake up from sleep because the power supply can't handle it.They also don't meet the latest EU regulations about "vampire power", which require less than 0.5w of power consumption in standby, and something like >70% efficiency for the 5v standby circuitYou as a seller may sell these CHEAP power supplies and they may work when you install them, fresh out of the box, and most people these days have computers that barely hit 300 watts of power consumption, so you're just lucky they don't blow up or cause issues, but you're not there 1-2 years after the sale when fans die or electrolytic capacitors go bad, or when the primary transistors blow up, and you can always blame the lack of line conditioners and not give that person another power supply when they complain.Get in the last decade and accept the fact that modern designs can achieve high efficiencies of over 90%, so when a person plays game on the computer the power supply no longer has to struggle to dissipate 50+ watts in the form of heat.Modern power supplies even come with 5-7 years of warranty, some even come with 10-12 years. What does that say to you, when you compare it to the 1 year of debatable warranty of those cheap power supplies?I paid a bit more quite a few years ago and bought a Seasonic X-650 power supply ... still working like on the first day and I'll probably use it for another decade. Compare the internal design with your shitty old designs :http://www.jonnyguru.com/blog/2013/02/04/seasonic-x-650-km3-650w-power-supply/5/Does this look "crowded" to you ?

author: PKTKS
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2020, 09:37:15 am
content: Thank you for sharing your attention, your knowledgeand intelligent comments.I will do my best to keep that short direct to the point.You deserve a proper share of ideas.AS THE TOPIC STATES: I am also *very* disappointed with those PSUs- I don't need to "update" my tech - I have been there - whole way top/down- I have spent money with that PFC garbage as well - and they failed.They do fail at a surprisingly high rate - equal to old standardsbut this time - with a greater liability. What the cause?Reason I am still interested in sharing some nuts & bolts..- I agree with your points almost 90%.- I tried them - and several failed shortly - they have more issues than previous- They also suffer same problems of other designs* bad quality parts, new unproved solutions, lack of parts..* and others - legislation, increasing change of ATX details..- but now they cost 5x or even 8x times more - thanks to those "solutions"Really really bad propagandaATX under 500W HALF BRIDGE based designs have real bad ones.- But NOT ALL. -- VERY IMPORTANT DETAIL ...- If you can choose the good ones they work as they should- and far more cost effective.Need to say:I don't use garbageI don't sell garbageI have tried *ALOT* of them to find the good ones.BOTH OF THEM: HALF BRIDGE designs as well as PFC ones.- they do fail and they do have a lot of bad ones.I think it will be solved by itself with new ATX12VO - hopefullyATX changed too much - those ratings are just summed like500W 700W - they are actually not much a guideline for reliable products.If I would be using or selling garbage I would be out of buzAnd I do this all day long 24H daily last 40 years.I do have a proper floor of own results.They workBetter than those funky stickers onlyIf using PFC base I reduced my list to only 2 (Seasonic included)If using HALF BRIDGE ones - the list is bigger and fail rate is better.And I agree almost 90% with you - at the point..BOTH SOLUTIONS ARE PRETTY MUCH BAD.Hopefully in a couple years it won't matter with ATX12VO.trying to keep short ideasPaul