Laser-ing the IC markings off on a budget. - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Arek_R
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2021, 01:19:12 pm
content: Hi I'm looking to into making the product difficult to reverse engineer.I believe it can be done using some generic hobby grade 5W laser engraver, right?Has anyone tried doing this?Does anyone know what's the required power of the laser module to quickly do it?Thanks.

author: MuhScopeBroke
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2021, 01:22:14 pm
content: just blast a few junk components with the laser and see what is too much/too little power. You can scrape those markings off with an exacto knife so I bet its doable with a laser

author: janoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2021, 01:35:58 pm
content: I guess you are not doing this in volume (hobby grade engraver ...) so even a Dremel and a sanding disc will do it.On the other hand, this is a pretty futile thing to do if you are hoping that it will make the product difficult to reverse engineer. People routinely decap ICs these days to identify them, especially anyone who could be sufficiently motivated to copy your product.However, what you certainlywillachieve by doing this is earning the unmitigated hate of anyone who will have to repair your product later (I do hope it is not meant to be disposable ...). I.e. typically your own clients.

author: Arek_R
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2021, 01:54:53 pm
content: I know everything can be reverse engineered.It's mostly to make the directors and managers sleep better.It is for a product that will sell around 10k units a year, and is not intended to be repairable.And hobby grade so that it proves how easy it is to do.You also don't need laser precision, +/-1mm is acceptable.Later on might buy prosumer machine.

author: daqq
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2021, 01:57:44 pm
content: On using a Dremel as was advised... beware. Those are some nasty vibrations applied onto the pins and part and it could result in issues. I've actually had pins that got broken off of the solder when I used a Dremel to "adjust" the board shape.As to removing markings in general: Avoid. It's a trivial inconvenience to even a slightly dedicated reverse engineer, adds processing and equipment cost.

author: Uksa007
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2021, 01:58:24 pm
content: Quote from: Arek_R on March 16, 2021, 01:54:53 pmWith that volume you maybe able to order from the manufacturer with your own part number printed on them.

author: Arek_R
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2021, 02:08:43 pm
content: We manufacture to order and in smaller batches, buying 10000 components at once isn't convenient.So anyone knows what power is required?

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2021, 02:13:21 pm
content: Black solder mask, along with a pour of epoxy around the critical parts, after cleaning, will do more than just removing numbers. At least the black will make reverse engineering harder, especially on a multilayer board, with tracks routed in the inner layers, and a less than visible amount on top and bottom, and the epoxy pour will keep them from moisture.All that will mean the cloner will just have to sit there and do extra steps to get a full circuit design out, so best, if you are using programmable parts, is to make sure to set the lock bits on them, and make it harder to just copy, plus if you can add an extra encryption to the firmware updates, so they are unique to each serial number, making it harder to simply reverse engineer an update to get the firmware. 10k units per year doable with only a few extra gray hairs a month. And yes for 10k units most suppliers of non jellybean chips will happily give you a custom part number for you to use in house, though you might be doing a bulk buy for a 3 year supply initially. Will just have a manufacturer mark and lot number on them, in addition to your custom part number. Otherwise invest in some paintable epoxy and do your own blacktopping of the parts after assembly, which is what the epoxy will be doing.

author: Arek_R
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2021, 02:57:37 pm
content: Thanks for advice but I didn't ask for alternative countermeasures or if it can still be reverse engineered or if it makes sense.I asked if someone used laser and if yes what power of the laser is recommended.

author: Benta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2021, 03:17:06 pm
content: 10k is a reasonable volume, but not for a semiconductor manufacturer.On the other hand, the big semiconductor distributors (Arrow, Avnet) will do laser marking as a service. They prefer to supply the parts themselves, mainly due to quality and MSL control, but will also mark what you give them (probably with a disclaimer).They can mark anything, you can even upload a .BMP if you want your own logo or whatever on the chips.Call your local sales office.

author: Sal Ammoniac
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2021, 03:48:44 pm
content: Quote from: Arek_R on March 16, 2021, 01:54:53 pmWhy not? If you're using commonly available parts (or why else would you want to remove the IC markings?) then why shouldn't the "thing" be repairable? We already have too many disposable, non-repairable things in this world.

author: Arek_R
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2021, 04:21:19 pm
content: It will be potted and enclosure riveted, also as a industrial product none of the customers would even think of fixing it.I guess I will just have to buy the engraver and find out myself.

author: Benta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2021, 04:50:58 pm
content: Did you read my post #9?https://www.avnet.com/wps/portal/emea/solutions/logistics/product-modification-center/marking/I can't find aything at Arrow, though.There's usually a set up charge, after that it's a few cents per device.

author: Arek_R
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2021, 07:35:10 pm
content: I don't want to be rude but I didn't ask for this stuff.I know there are better options but I don't look for best options.I've just asked for some advices regarding lasering it off yourself, why do you guys have such a hard time understanding this.Issue is that there were many qty of the ICs already bought and making it a top secret product came afterwards from the directors/managers, I don't have much control over this.Also those 10k/year is nothing guaranteed, it would be nothing new if the customer would just cancel it out of nowhere.Before they wanted to used secondary type of hard black potting as a separate process but it makes the entire manufacturing process a nightmare.Once it's a established product in a full swing then yeah I would organise the component suppliers or 3rd parties to either manufacture ICs without markings or get it removed professionally, but where the project is now it's not a viable option.

author: Arek_R
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2021, 08:21:32 pm
content: Your response I so dumb I'm going to assume you're just a troll.

author: KE5FX
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2021, 08:24:14 pm
content: Quote from: Arek_R on March 16, 2021, 07:35:10 pmWelcome to EEVblog. New here?Quote15 seconds with a microfocus X-ray machine, and yeah, good luck with your potting and lasering and Dremeling and black solder mask and...It's like the modern trend of failing to publish schematics "to slow down the Chinese." It might slow them down by a day or two. Then they will clone your product and the store it's sold in, if they are inclined to do so.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2021, 08:28:18 pm
content: Quote from: Arek_R on March 16, 2021, 04:21:19 pmIf you pot it then it will be next to impossible to get the chips out in one piece anyway. In this case engraving the chips doesn't add any protection.So the answer to your question is: don't bother with engraving at all. If you are going to do engraving anyway you'll also need to think about filtering the toxic fumes from the engraver burning epoxy resin (nasty stuff when you burn it).If you are serious about your product then make sure it is cheap (for which potting and rivetting the enclosure doesn't help) and add new features so your customers keep upgrading. Whatever gets cloned is outdated that way.

author: Arek_R
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2021, 08:46:06 pm
content: But if you leave the hard potting for the night in acetone it will soften to the point where you can peel it off with your hands.Also entire point is to not have to use the secondary hard potting because it complicates manufacturing as it was not intended to be partially potted like that.As I said it's a industrial product and price doesn't matter that much.Still not a single answer to my question.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2021, 09:29:00 pm
content: If someone knew, they'd tell you. Probably very few here would bother with that sort of thing. I haven't done it, but I'm sure one of those engraving lasers would do it, its just a matter of trial and error as to how to set it up and how quickly it can do it.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2021, 09:40:00 pm
content: Quote from: Arek_R on March 16, 2021, 01:54:53 pmDoes the product have a microcontroller in it, or could it accommodate a very small one?Make the MCU do something essential, blow the fuse protection bits, and your product is not duplicatable except by replacing that software+MCU, which will take a fair bit more effort than just copying the hardware design.

author: JohnnyMalaria
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2021, 10:06:20 pm
content: Quote from: Arek_R on March 16, 2021, 01:19:12 pmThis guy did it with a "40W" laser at half power

author: JustMeHere
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2021, 02:05:55 am
content: Possible? Yeah, metal can be etched with a laser.Practical, well, you will need a 3 axis CNC machine to do it reliably.I would start out with 100 grit sandpaper.

author: Arek_R
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 23, 2021, 08:06:02 am
content: Another troll?Since when are ICs made out of metal?

author: beanflying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 23, 2021, 08:27:50 am
content: Quote from: Arek_R on March 23, 2021, 08:06:02 amPractical Test tomorrow on my 40W CO2 Laser. Gut feel it will need something like 20-30% of power at near full scan speed (300mm/sec) to get it done.I also do have a 0.5W Diode Laser I can have a play with but it isn't mounted in anything. The thing to bear in mind if you are tempted to look at a Diode Laser option is they are nearly allspec and over driven to hell. Also the scan speeds achievable by these will be painful if you need to run a decent number of IC'sI have some random SMD chips I have salvaged from boards as rework practice and some DIP stuff I will sacrifice to the cause of knowledge.

author: beanflying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 23, 2021, 10:27:06 am
content: Ok so I got bored/intrigued and the Bottle of Single Malt Painkiller is in the shackTried sitting some Loose SMD and IC's under the Laser but the Air Assist (Lens Cleaning) was not going to cooperate. Blu-Tack is an option but I decided to quickly lump some bits together for a little mass. Even during the test this moved a little.Quick Fusion Mask to avoid needing to ablate the entire bit 40% at 300mm/sec and it could certainly be done at less power than this with a bit of experimenting. Also in a production setting you would drop the DPI in the vertical to save more time again but this gives a nice smooth result.Very rough test but the junk end of the K40 rubbish would get it done or a nicer something for a few $ more like mine is a better option. Obviously better jigging and measuring than the 10 minute option too

author: Alex Eisenhut
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 23, 2021, 12:20:17 pm
content: Quote from: Arek_R on March 23, 2021, 08:06:02 amTroll yourself.

author: beanflying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 23, 2021, 12:39:56 pm
content: Quote from: Alex Eisenhut on March 23, 2021, 12:20:17 pmClearly that just makes you a USELESS Smartass then rather than a trollIQ's also come in Ceramic encapsulation along with metal and these total likely way less than 1% of use cases in modern devices. If there is a Metal Case no way I would be hitting the likely delicate internals with anything but TLC and extreme care.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 23, 2021, 01:05:44 pm
content: Quote from: Arek_R on March 23, 2021, 08:06:02 amHave you quite finished? You are free to ask questions but not dictate what the responses are. / end of moderator comment.Protecting from reverse engineering is almost pointless as I told my employer when I came up with an idea that was simple. If the product is that simple why even bother to reverse engineer it? Just design something that does the same and make it cheaper...... you can design stuff faster than you can reverse engineer unless it is some real gem of technological breakthrough.What also makes a product unique and not worth copying is your position in the market. Is it niche, if it is then there is not much point putting the effort into reversing it or replicating the same functionality. Bit of sand paper on the end of a finger is all you need.If the device has code then just lock access to the chip. Then most won't even bother and those that will, it will be pointless trying to stop....

author: mnementh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 23, 2021, 05:21:26 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on March 23, 2021, 01:05:44 pmOkay... I've sanded off all my fingerprints... what next...?mnem*hears whispering voice through PC speakers* "If I told you, I'd have to kill you..."

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 23, 2021, 05:29:27 pm
content: Your supposed to use the sand paper round the other way

author: mnementh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 23, 2021, 05:38:27 pm
content: I blame the tech reference supplied with this service procedure.mnem

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 23, 2021, 05:40:48 pm
content: How hard is it for someone who really wants it, to identify a chip even if the markings have been blitzed?

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 23, 2021, 05:41:31 pm
content: Quote from: mnementh on March 23, 2021, 05:38:27 pmHey, I once had to do a rework instruction for a customer which literally read: remove the screws, lift lid and rotate 90 degrees, place lid on base. Re-insert screws.....Basically they did not want to admit that they had been inside it and they put the lid back on wrong so it went political.

author: mnementh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 23, 2021, 05:54:42 pm
content: Addendum: Remove screws. Lift lid. Locate and remove screws dropped inside unit. Rotate lid 180°. Reinstall lid. Reinstallallscrews.mnem

author: Syntax Error
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 23, 2021, 06:23:28 pm
content: I am sure if the OP posted the schematic minus values to the EEVBlog Forum, it would take about six hours before someone not only identifies the parts but, suggests improvements!There is no counter measure to the reverse engineering of physical hardware. Afterall, it's how many young EEs learn to be ancient EEs. 'Probbing' with a multimeter is also the bed rock for developer communities such as OpenWRT.Even if you burried the tracks inside a multi layer board, someone somewhere (in China) is going to xray the board and have an Altium clone out by next Tuesday.You can ask the chip vendor to send 'black box' chips with pre-flashed firmware and the SPI and Jtag pins dead, but then they might insist on a MOQ of 10,000 units. So try floating that concept past middle managers suffering budget fear.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 23, 2021, 06:26:53 pm
content: You could set the reset pin of the micro controller if there is one to be an IO pin which will disable any ICSP but they can still try high voltage so may as well just lock access to read out the code.

author: Syntax Error
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 23, 2021, 06:42:37 pm
content: I suppose the question really is, what is the intellectual property that needs protecting, the hardware or the firmware? Even if the firmware in flash is obscurated or even encrypted, that just makes life more difficult for an attacker, not impossible.That said, an external encrypted EEPROM may be what the OP needs?"Use an External Encrypted EEPROM to Secure Data in Embedded Systems":https://www.digikey.com/en/articles/use-external-encrypted-eeprom--secure-data-embedded-systems

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 23, 2021, 06:44:31 pm
content: by the sounds of it the OP needs to deal with some managers that are not very grown up and don't know what they are dealing with or understand the real world.

author: Alex Eisenhut
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 23, 2021, 06:56:19 pm
content: In the 1980s hackers were able to break Videocipher by drilling holes into the chip package to probe signals on the die. So if a handful of pre-internet hackers were able to outwit a corporation, as an individual or small company, you don't stand a chance.https://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/fl-xpm-1987-01-25-8701050839-story.html

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 23, 2021, 07:16:00 pm
content: which is why I say just rub the numbers off with some sandpaper, if that don't stop them nothing will.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 23, 2021, 07:50:58 pm
content: I think it's hilarious when companies sand the numbers off of parts. Nothing motivates me to reverse engineer something I would otherwise ignore than a feeble attempt at preventing one from doing so. Engineers love a challenge, and anyone who thinks sanding the numbers off of ICs does anything to prevent reverse engineering the device is completely delusional. If your gadget is worth copying, Chinese companies will be producing knockoffs in no time.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 23, 2021, 07:54:11 pm
content: Quote from: Syntax Error on March 23, 2021, 06:23:28 pmI have xrayed boards many times as a humble hobbyist. The equipment needed to do so is not expensive or difficult to acquire. Obviously it is necessary from a safety aspect to know what you're doing but it's not rocket science.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 23, 2021, 07:58:48 pm
content: Quote from: Arek_R on March 16, 2021, 02:57:37 pmIt's very likely that nobody here knows because none of us have tried. Most of us know how utterly useless it is and have thus not bothered to experiment. Give it a try and see what happens. Post the results so the next person wanting to know can find the answer.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 23, 2021, 08:05:40 pm
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on March 23, 2021, 05:40:48 pmNot very hard at all. I have reverse engineered a couple of different potted assemblies just by gaining access to the bottom of the PCB without ever seeing the top. I identified the ICs by the pinout, it was not difficult to determine that in one device there was a dual op-amp, a 555 and an opto-coupler. I couldn't get the exact part numbers from some of them but I could take an educated guess based on the characteristics of the device they were used in. The first thing I do is identify the power and ground pins, that tends to narrow things down quite a lot. Then look for stuff like clock crystals, filter networks, decoupling capacitors and try to figure out which pins are inputs and which are outputs, a lot of jellybean parts can be identified in minutes. If you are really stuck and don't mind sacrificing a device, there are services and even hobbyists who can de-cap the IC and photograph the die under a microscope which will yield clues as to what it is, occasionally the manufacture or even the part number is etched into the die.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 23, 2021, 09:01:37 pm
content: Yea work had a subcontractor once who was utterly useless. He supplied a PWM generator to speed control motors, he sanded the number off. I took one look and was like, pin 6 and 2 are joined together, it's a 555, further easy clue was the level shifter and knowing that the 555 is 18V abs max clearly level shifting would be needed on a 555 for 24V so the chip not withstanding 24V was a further clue at a glance before even starting to draw it out.

author: beanflying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 24, 2021, 12:16:17 am
content: I don't think even the OP is under the illusion of what removing the markings from chips will and wont do. Anyone determined with the skills and time can figure there way through most circuits. Software protection makes a lot of sense by physical means but that is only a hurdle not a complete solution.Even potting can be defeated, the first time I did this was on a depth sounder as a 16 year old where the potting (more of a thick 5-6mm coating) was I suspect part waterproofing and part design protection. Messy ugly but got in did the repair on a blown transistor.Sanding markings off for 1-10 yep sure if you must but 100-1000 not likely and if you use rotary sanding gear you are at risk of static buildup and damage so just don't. A Laser makes far more sense and if a company goes down that path with the right one then they have plenty of other use cases.Taking the markings off a jellybean 8 pin device is just too

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 24, 2021, 01:09:15 am
content: Potting is easily defeated in many cases. I repaired a bunch of potted HeNe laser power supplies and even completely de-potted a couple of them by heating the epoxy until it softened and then scraping it off. I found I could also peel the layer off the bottom, desolder all the parts, then heat it up and peel the PCB off of the potted brick containing all the components and then heat that up and break it apart to get most of the parts out. The potting on those is done mostly for insulating reasons but the fact that they are all potted motivated me to reverse engineer several. I repaired a few of them too just by identifying the bad part from the bottom and then milling it out with an endmill and inserting a new part down in the hole.

author: mnementh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 24, 2021, 03:45:47 am
content: Mill the part smooth then laser-etch a in-house stock number which is "accidentally" similar to a completely unrelated part in a similar package.You know, like some devices I've seen that "accidentally" have a positive DC rail on a black wire, just for grins.mnem"...I'm goin' straight to Hell,just like my momma said.I'm goin' straight to Hell..."https://youtu.be/CSvf6FsSnjg

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 24, 2021, 04:16:51 am
content: Quote from: james_s on March 24, 2021, 01:09:15 amLOL keyhole surgery!

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 24, 2021, 04:27:36 am
content: Quote from: mnementh on March 24, 2021, 03:45:47 amSome early arcade games from the pre-microprocessor era did that. I saw a board that had a standard 74xx number on a part that was obviously a bipolar PROM. Just looking at the schematic you could see it was clearly the sprite ROM.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 24, 2021, 05:12:11 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on March 24, 2021, 04:46:35 amI wouldn't say "need" - but it is an option.QuoteThe OP is well aware of this risk - it is the reason they started this thread!As stated earlier, I'd try out various settings on chips you don't care about. It shouldn't take long to dial in acceptable parameters.

author: beanflying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 24, 2021, 06:34:16 am
content: Pulsed notionally higher powered fiber lasers or CO2 (pulsed or not) won't make much difference as the power needed to ablate the surface will be a constant.It is fairly common in Raster CO2 Laser engraving to play with the timing/switching of the pulse to get an effect or just a simple reduction in power and a change to the scan lines per X unit will drop the power and overlap of the beam.Just checked the scan lines on the sample runs I did were 0.05mm with a typical kerf of 0.16-17 (power is not uniform across the beam either) so there is a reasonable overlap that for speeds sake alone you would cut back as well as dropping the power put into the encapsulation.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 24, 2021, 07:51:29 am
content: Quote from: mnementh on March 24, 2021, 03:45:47 amYou mean like the entire German automotive standard wire colour coding? Black is positive, Brown is Negative - just for kicks, luckily wost stuff is reverse polarity protected.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 24, 2021, 07:53:22 am
content: How I love this threadHopefully your bosses pay off some cancer bills for those poor kids working on the unrepairable trashhttps://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/burning-truth-behind-e-waste-dump-africa-180957597/The threshold for china reverse engineering your stuff is probobly like 200 units

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 24, 2021, 07:53:31 am
content: I think if you truly want potting to be a method you need to go down the routes that whoever makes banking equipment use which of course will not be cheap. Obviously people like that will be using all the other means like locking software and encryption etc.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 24, 2021, 12:41:56 pm
content: The important thing is to design for longevity and change the attitudes about constantly buying a new one. Fortunately the market i work in wants longevity and robust designs so I don't have to cut corners to the degree that commercial product cut.i once read of a guy returning 3 lexmark printers to the store after every single one stopped working after 16 pages were printed.I have a hard drive that mysteriously stopped working. When I went searching I discovered that this was a common fault and happened after a certain time period and that the manufacturer was offering a firmware upgrade for those that had not reached this time or if the drive had stopped working they would take it back and sort it out. I sent mine back and it was returned to me in perfect working order. No explanation was ever given of why it stopped working in correlation to a particular number of hours. We all know what happened but the manufacturer (seagate) would never admit to having a time to fail in the firmware.

author: Microdoser
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 24, 2021, 01:20:53 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on March 24, 2021, 12:41:56 pmI'm currently designing a product, and I am designing it to be easily repairable. I want the end user to keep usingmyproduct and repair it, extending the time they use my product well beyond the standard product lifetime. Every time a user needs to buy a new product is a chance they won't choose yours.Furthermore, I will offer a repair and refurbish service at a fair price and I hope this, as well as consumable parts, will become a steady income stream. Repairs will, at the preference of the end user, be simple board switching or component level repairs to minimize repair cost. It should always be cheaper and easier to repair the product than buy a new one IMO.I am fully aware that any vested interests will reverse engineer any product. My defence against that will be to offer superior customer service and a trustworthy brand identity.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 24, 2021, 03:31:43 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on March 24, 2021, 12:41:56 pmThere are those who claim that planned obsolescence isn't a "thing". - It is definitely a "thing"... in fact, every product ever (competently) designed has had a specific defined design life... if you buy a car, everything is designed for 100K miles or 10 years... if you buy a cell phone where the battery can't be changed, you know you are buying a product with a 2-3 year design life... and so on.

author: Alex Eisenhut
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 24, 2021, 05:23:56 pm
content: Hmmm, how about a CSP embedded in a cavity in the PCB? That's doable. Pot that, and I think we have some more "security". Might slow down a determined hacker by a whole extra 24 hours.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 24, 2021, 06:17:34 pm
content: Quote from: blueskull on March 24, 2021, 03:58:18 pmYes I am sure you are right and I never believed that there was an explicit counter but something reasonably predictable had been implemented hence the error I guess where someone miscalculated the indirect mechanism but there was an hour count given and I think it was seagate that said there was an issue that would fail the drive after this time, but no further explanation was given

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 24, 2021, 06:33:30 pm
content: A bus manufacturer engineer told me that cars are designed for 3'000 hours use. I expect it's not as direct as that and there are other factors but that is 180'000 miles at 60mph so it sounds like a reasonable figure. It is not to say the car will literally stop at 3'000 hrs but under average use you can't expect the major items to still be usable and major repairs required.A bus he claimed lasts 50'000 hrs which with a 16 hour day is 3125 days or probably 10-15 years which is not unreasonable. The thing with life expectancy is that you have to really work hard on some systems to have that sort of durability. stuff like vibration, fine for a few hours, but over thousands of hours a wire that is not properly restrained can chafe to the point of failure.Cars still use brushed motors because any brushed motor will likely last 3'000 hours or even if it's 1'000 hours it takes the component through the guarantee. So why use brushless motors that will outlive the car and cost 50-100% more. It makes sense to put a brushless radiator fan on a bus that lasts 40'000 hours as it will likely last the 50'000 hours or more particularly if speed controlled. Apart from the speed controllable fan saving something like £8'000 in fuel (for the price of the controller for multiple fans) the fan will never need replacing as it will last 4 times the brushed fan for an extra 50% in price...... all worth it when you will use the 40'000 hrs of the fan and for less than £100 extra you save that cost 4 times over just for the labour to replace the brushed fans. But on a car why spend £75 on a fan when a £50 fan can do the job and you are fitting 1'000'000 of them?

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 24, 2021, 06:38:34 pm
content: Quote from: Microdoser on March 24, 2021, 01:20:53 pmAnd how about getting a good reputation while you are at it? People will keep buying the newer versions for many different reasons with confidence

author: beanflying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 24, 2021, 06:54:56 pm
content: How about keeping somewhere NEAR on the OP's topic?

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 24, 2021, 07:29:55 pm
content: Quote from: beanflying on March 24, 2021, 06:54:56 pmYou mean the guy who called everyone who would not give him the answer he wanted a troll and has not come back for a page and a half.

author: beanflying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 24, 2021, 07:33:31 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on March 24, 2021, 07:29:55 pmMaybe because you kicked him when a nudge would have done Simon ever thought about that? You have removed and locked threads for straying off topic and YOU are leading!

author: KE5FX
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 24, 2021, 07:50:06 pm
content: Quote from: beanflying on March 24, 2021, 06:54:56 pmI think it's on topic. The OP is asking for ways to make it harder not only to copy a device, but to repair it. Once the decision has been made to intentionally make it hard to repair a product, it's reasonable to suspect the manufacturer of intentionally limiting its service life in other ways.My thinking has always been that no manufacturer would implement a "lifetime counter" because the risk -- meaning the product of the probability of being caught and the consequences that are likely to ensue -- would be horrific. Then Dieselgate came along.So much for my thinking.In general, though, I still believe that Hanlon's Razor applies more often than not. Seagate's firmware problem was probably just a matter of using a 32-bit timestamp counter someplace where 64 bits would have been better. Rest assured, they didn't make money selling drives that fail early, because people who buy lots of hard drives tend to keep track of such things.Likewise, the reason why cars last 100,000 miles before becoming uneconomical to own is simply because few people want to pay for new cars that last 200,000 miles before becoming uneconomical to own. Porsche says that 70% of the cars they've ever built are still on the road... but in a world where every car has to meet that standard, billions of people are going to have to do without any cars at all. Whether that's better or worse for humanity is definitely off topic, but the point is irrefutable.At the end of all of this bloviation lies a simple question of engineering ethics. If someone asks for advice on how to make their product worse, they will need to get it from someone besides me. I buy lots of stuff myself, and I don't want it to to be more expensive, harder to repair, or for that matter, harder to understand.Quote from: Simon on March 24, 2021, 07:29:55 pmThe funny thing is that he was actually callingmea troll. I dislike how EEVblog gives us like 15 seconds to correct a mistake or clarify a point before appendingLast edited on $DATE by $NAME, who is either trying to hide something or needed to think his half-baked post through a little further. So I usually just delete my post when I need to edit it, and then resubmit it as a new one. Occasionally this breaks causality. The lesson for the OP is to use the Quote button when setting out to call people trolls, lest he troll himself.

author: ajb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 24, 2021, 08:15:00 pm
content: Quote from: beanflying on March 24, 2021, 06:34:16 amIt's not quite that simple. Ablation is a thermal process, and the energy input to the top layer of material via the laser is working against the thermal conductance of the object which tends to carry away thermal power into the rest of the material. So in order to get enough energy into the top layer of the material that you want to ablate before that energy diffuses into and thereby heats the bulk material you need to deliver that energy relatively quickly--thus a relatively high peak power is more effective. Or more accurately, a high peak power density is required, since the ablation energy is a function of the area to be ablated. So a cheap CW diode laser engraver could certainly cause greater heating and thermal stress or possibly chemical degradation to the part before adequately ablating the surface, both because it will have a worse beam profile and hence less effective focusing than fiber or CO2, and because it will have lower peak power versus a pulsed laser. (And of course the wavelength is a factor too.) Whether it's enough to make a real difference in process reliability in practice is a harder question to answer, and will depend on just how cheap and crappy of a diode laser engraver we're talking about. Some real-world testing from which you can estimate the total energy applied to the part to get good results with either method is probably the best way to start figuring that out.

author: Microdoser
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 24, 2021, 08:24:19 pm
content: Quote from: coppercone2 on March 24, 2021, 06:38:34 pmA good reputation is part and parcel of a trustworthy brand identity IMO and of course there will be newer versions which I hope previous customers will want to purchase based on their experience with the device and the company.What I am not going to do is force them to buy a new version because they cannot repair their old version or make the repair price so high they may as well buy a new product.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 24, 2021, 08:42:05 pm
content: Quote from: KE5FX on March 24, 2021, 07:50:06 pmPorsches probably get taken care of, and fixed, almost no matter what condition! - e.g. compared to an old Toyota taxi...

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 25, 2021, 12:02:29 am
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on March 24, 2021, 03:31:43 pmYes and no. In a sense it's true, but in my experience it's not a case of "we want this to fail after x number of years" but "we want this to last a minimum of x number of years, and build it as cheaply as possible." The goal is to make it cheap to build, not to make it fail, but a consequence of being cheap is that it often will not last as long.One potential exception I can think of, back in the late 60s Westinghouse and GE each developed a formulation for the coating on mercury vapor lamp cathodes that created a translucent white deposit on the arc tube walls rather than the dark silvery black deposit of evaporated tungsten that was typical and they marketed these as their Westinghouse "Lifeguard" and GE "Bonus Line" lamps. They lasted longer, a LOT longer, I have seen some that were still going after 30 years of dusk till dawn service. After about 15 years both companies went back to the older cathode formulation and lifespan reduced to 3-5 years or so before they started getting really dim. It's possible though that even that came down to cost, and the fact that it coincides with around the everyone started pushing high pressure sodium lamps.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 25, 2021, 12:07:20 am
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on March 24, 2021, 08:42:05 pmYeah how often do you see people driving around in a 20 year old beater Porsche or Ferrari or something? I don't think I ever have. Some cars are just classics right from the start, people who buy them treat them like an investment and take good care of them. Similar is true of airplanes, go visit a small airport and look at the various Cessnas and Pipers and stuff, most people would be hard pressed to tell whether a particular plane is a 1963 model or a 2003 model, they don't restyle them every year to keep up with the fashion trends and airplanes are very expensive so people take care of them. There are also airworthiness regulations that prevent a plane from continuing to fly if it falls into disrepair. Almost any car can be made to last a long time if you take care of it. I've never owned a car with less than 100k on it, the last one I got rid of had 330k when it was totaled, the replacement currently has 267k and still going strong. Whenever anything breaks I fix it, money spent on repairs is negligible compared to what payments would be on even a cheap new car. It's all in the attitude, I don't understand the mentality of not wanting to spend more fixing a car than it's worth, most cars are not investments, you always spend more than they're worth, whether on depreciation or on repairs.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 25, 2021, 01:38:58 am
content: Quote from: james_s on March 25, 2021, 12:07:20 amTotally agree, my oldest car turns 30 this year (I've owned it for 20), a little Miata MX5 that has cost almost nothing to own - I treated it to new shocks, mounts, and suspension bushings all round last year, it drives like a dream. The funny thing is how much the youngsters seem to like it - if I go to Autozone for something, I'm barely allowed to leave again, they all seem to want to talk!

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 25, 2021, 03:14:11 am
content: the problem is that some features are really good, particularly rearview camera, but it can be retrofitted.IMO that one eventually going to save you money when you are off your game, its almost idiot proof so long you clean it in the winter

author: mnementh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2021, 06:54:21 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on March 24, 2021, 04:27:36 amYebbutt by the time you have a schizz-matic you've already done 90% of the reverse-enginerding-ery, or have stolen IP which is the equivalent.mnem

author: mnementh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2021, 06:57:41 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on March 24, 2021, 07:51:29 amGewd laird... some people justeffin' hatethe color-blind, don't they...?mnem

author: mnementh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2021, 07:33:16 pm
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on March 24, 2021, 03:31:43 pmThose 3 LexMarks all stopped printing because the "starter" cartridges had run out. They and HP got a huge black eye over that practice in the late 90s... yet here we are again a couple decades later and everybody just expects it.For certain makes & models, I think 10y/100k is generous... however, that figure is still much higher mileage than used to be the case. Difference is that cars were once designed to be repaired, and core parts like a timing chain and oil seals and clutch were considered part of maintenance, not held against a vehicle's record in terms of longevity. Current designs, and the insane cost of dealership service has changed that. Such service nowadays, if not done under warranty, are now cause to get rid of the car.A lot of this has to do with the Japanese invasion... newer ways of making smaller engines that burn leaner and cleaner resulted in import cars lasting a decade or more with nothing but oil, spark plug and battery changes. That forced American manufacturers to abandon big V8s and get smaller too.But the upshot of this, and reluctance of parts houses to carry parts for imports well into the 80s, forced the development of "BIC Lighter Cars" by those overseas manufacturers; where a car lasted a decade or so then everything started to fall apart. That has become the norm now; but what it really means is higher precision engineering, and engineering that is "just strong enough" not "10x over-engineered" because "Who cares, it's just cheap iron, and the car can carry it..." which means the car isn't carrying a lot of mass it doesn't need to. And it also means that individual parts now have a lot longer MTBF.... because they're being designed to last the entire service life of a vehicle, not with the intent of being replaced at 50k or 60k intervals like a V8 timing chain.Personally, while I do lament the decline of all that gorgeous old iron from the 40s through the 70s... I have to admit that purely from a daily transportation standpoint, cars are now exponentially better than they were back then.mnem

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 28, 2021, 07:55:41 pm
content: Quote from: mnementh on March 28, 2021, 06:57:41 pmwiring standards these days rely more on actual labels. I don't know about elsewhere but I am told that in the UK mains wire colours are no longer to be trusted, electricians clearly label the wires, although they still follow the colour code it is no longer binding.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2021, 08:25:17 pm
content: Quote from: mnementh on March 28, 2021, 07:33:16 pmThis. That approach is also what killed the motorcycle industry in the UK (precision made Japanese bonzai engine parts made lighter and much higher performing machines). There is no doubt that Western car makers got a big wake-up call from the East, after sleeping at the switch for a long time.I've happily bought North American cars for the last 20 years, they have been very reliable and decently economical too, without setting world records.QuoteThe big V8s are still here, but they live in pickup trucks and performance cars only, not in Granny's grocery getter. Do you remember the days when Granny's Oldsmobile Ninety-Eight could get 40 feet of rubber leaving the idyllic suburban setting? What a waste!

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2021, 09:10:08 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on March 28, 2021, 07:55:41 pmanything to save a fucking dollar huh?they can do a green live wire?I personally like banded wire, but it has to be a good band so it shows up good in the picture, you can keep different wiring runs thematic in a wiring harness if you have color banded wire (i.e. white with bands), if its just too many solid colors it looks like someone shoved a fucking rainbow in there and you can't figure out what the fuck is going onlabels are even worse, random from unit to unit, its the mystery meat leftover lunch for the electronics world, and you know they are gonna fall offlets allow parallel wires for greater ampacity, so you get some stitched together shit made out of recycled printer cables in your new dream home bahahhaa

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 29, 2021, 05:16:15 pm
content: Not really. Using the wrong colour is easy, but usually labelling is quite deliberate and less error prone.

author: mnementh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2021, 04:19:49 pm
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on March 28, 2021, 08:25:17 pmAs long as you understand that even the NA-built cars are mostly manufactured from imported parts, I have no problem with that... tho I've sworn to never buy a new GM vehicle since they axed Saturn and declared bankruptcy to get out from under having to pay back the money they stole from duly-earned employee pension plans. Fucking undead vampire corporation, like Hostess.No, the big V8s are gone... replaced by much smaller, lighter and more efficient designs. The V8s you're talking aboot are the size a V-6 used to be, and even the big V10 Viper engine is smaller and lighter than any old big-block V8 (383, 455, 427, 396, 440, 500, etc) from back in the day.Progress is good... and it means my stash of seasoned big-blocks might actually be worth some serious money someday... or maybe even become a father-son project of real value.mnem

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2021, 05:47:51 pm
content: Quote from: mnementh on April 01, 2021, 04:19:49 pmI am all for big blocks, but there has been some progress with engines... the base Mustang engine is a 2.3-liter four-cylinder with 330 horsepower and 350 pound-feet of torque - which would have been in big block territory back in the day, pretty amazing when you think of it!The "small" V8 in the supercharged Mustang is good for 700hp, there was no equivalent in the big block world (factory stock of course). You can still get 25mpg if driven carefully (although who would? for how long?) - a big block is never going to make it out of the teens...It is completely crazy that you can go to your local dealer and buy a factory made hot rod off the lot, but that is entirely possible today... Great time to be alive!

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2021, 08:40:14 pm
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on April 01, 2021, 05:47:51 pmIt's impressive by any measure, but unfortunately rather boring. Half the fun of owning a car like that is customizing and upgrading it to make it your own. It's fun to get the incremental improvements, and there used to be all kinds of cool stuff you could do to a car. Now they're pretty much maxed out right from the factory, there's not much room to tweak anything. Hard to really make use of a car with hundreds of horsepower these days anyway, driving isn't nearly as fun as it used to be, there are too many cars on the road and too many disengaged idiots who are more focused on their phone than on where they're going.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2021, 03:08:51 am
content: Quote from: james_s on April 01, 2021, 08:40:14 pmYou don't have to drive super fast to enjoy driving... top down on a convertible, or sunroof, or at least all the windows down... some good tunes... some twisty roads... it is hard to be in a bad mood when you come home again. The 120hp in a Miata can leave you feeling just as satisfied as a 500hp muscle car, in each their own way.