Holy Crap - Bunnie's building an OSHW laptop - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2012, 12:54:13 am
content: ..and not just another Raspberry-Pi-in-a-box job - this is hardcore....http://www.bunniestudios.com/blog/?p=2686

author: Chasm
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2012, 01:52:58 am
content: Definitely most interesting!But unfortunately also most probably one of those "Because I can!" projects where you spend a whole lot of effort and money for rather marginal results.

author: ftransform
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2012, 02:14:05 am
content: ddr3

author: StubbornGreek
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2012, 02:36:39 am
content: Quote from: Chasm on December 16, 2012, 01:52:58 amIs there a better type of project?

author: chickenHeadKnob
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2012, 02:39:52 am
content: Most unusual features for a laptop. Two ethernet ports and all that fpga driven I/O including PWMs! It makes the bare board interesting for machine control and CNC.

author: StubbornGreek
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2012, 02:47:23 am
content: Quote from: chickenHeadKnob on December 16, 2012, 02:39:52 amThis is the one feature I really don't get. I could see to gigabit controllers that support teaming but why waste the space on the second 100mbit controller.Regardless, I like the motivation behind the project and will watch this one.Nice find Mike.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 16, 2012, 02:47:35 am
content: Very impressive.No Eagle or KiCAD for this, they've gone Altium.Dave.

author: TerraHertz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2012, 03:37:10 am
content: Some other related links in my post here:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/high-speed-design-project-for-highspeed-beginner/msg171888/#msg171888Go Bunnie!Quote from: Chasm on December 16, 2012, 01:52:58 amDepends what you mean by 'marginal'. This is a *very* political thing he's doing. And I'm sure he knows it.I'll be extremely interested to watch this evolve, in particular how he goes with lining up manufacturing and parts supply, once the big guys wake up to what he's doing. Which won't take them long, since he's thrown a major spanner in the DRM schemer's plans before.Edit:Quote from: StubbornGreek on December 16, 2012, 02:47:23 amBecause then you have a fully OSHW router/firewall. This too is a very important thing, given government-sponsored malware like Stuxnet, Flame, etc. Not to mention garden variety botnets, etc.

author: olsenn
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2012, 03:48:41 am
content: QuoteMy guess is the BGA packages would have been too big of a pain in the ass to escape route in anything other than Altium Designer. I could be wrong tho, it has been known to happen from time to time.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 16, 2012, 04:54:43 am
content: Quote from: olsenn on December 16, 2012, 03:48:41 amI do escape routing manually in Altium designer (cut'n'paste'n'rotate), so I imagine it's no bigger drama than with any other package?Dave.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 16, 2012, 04:55:40 am
content: A coincidence that I mentioned my tablet design idea on yesterday's live show.Dave.

author: peter.mitchell
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2012, 07:18:59 am
content: Want to buy.

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2012, 09:41:56 am
content: With an onboard FPGA i wonder what sort of test equipment you could make out of it.Hint Hint.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2012, 10:38:56 am
content: Quote from: TerraHertz on December 16, 2012, 03:37:10 amThis is never going to compete with any commercial product on cost - it will be well below the big guys "give a crap" threshold. It's quite possible there will be some misinformed idiotic press articles that blow the significance way out if proportion though.It will be interesting to see how he handles the case side of things.

author: McMonster
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2012, 02:01:16 pm
content: Quote from: StubbornGreek on December 16, 2012, 02:47:23 amI was thinking the same thing. It is a total waste of space on a laptop to have two Ethernet ports and WiFi as an external module (avoiding interference?). The only application I can think of is using this as a combination of a router, home server and home automation control machine. Would be actually nice if you skip input devices and display and put it in a small case, but this is nowhere near being a laptop.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2012, 05:35:11 pm
content: Quote from: McMonster on December 16, 2012, 02:01:16 pmDepends what size the laptop is to be and what you intend to do with it. The board could also easily double up as an embedded device. I see no space wasted on the board by the port, what would you put there? It's already got two USB ports (they may even be doubles, there's height for it), audio, HDMI, an SD slot..QuoteThere are many WiFi modules. What works for one does not work for another. Building the transceiver in is lunacy only employed by the likes of crApple.QuoteReally? Because I find there's not a lot of difference between a low power embedded device and a low power laptop. Basically a battery management chip between them.

author: Bored@Work
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2012, 07:08:32 pm
content: Quote from: McMonster on December 16, 2012, 02:01:16 pmActually not. He is trying to build a laptop for developers. If this includes embedded developers then he is facing that a growing number of embedded devices come with an ethernet port. It is very nice if you can drive these directly via a separate port and network during development, without having to add an additional router or a switch with VLAN support. hardly any consumer switch supports VLANs so you have to go for a more expensive professional one.

author: Chasm
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2012, 09:39:51 pm
content: Quote from: StubbornGreek on December 16, 2012, 02:36:39 amOf course there are!For starters all projects that come across my way while I have surplus money in my pockets.Then there are projects that itch a scratch or have unique features in addition to the function I need.(And don't cheat by mentioning the fpga and other stuff on this design.)Quote from: TerraHertz on December 16, 2012, 03:37:10 amOf course a large part of this project is politics.Bunnies projects often contain politics in addition to their interesting technical aspects. NeTV is such a project, interesting on the technical side but also loaded with politics.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2012, 11:29:55 pm
content: Easy-view gerber files :http://circuitpeople.com/ViewPackage.aspx?id=feefb9c8-021f-4da0-97ee-e27e12b4cbcf&dpi=100

author: TerraHertz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2012, 11:45:39 pm
content: Quote from: McMonster on December 16, 2012, 02:01:16 pmJust because Bunnie uses the word 'laptop' doesn't mean he's trying to compete in cost/form-factor/size with mass produced laptops.What he's trying to produce is an open source and hardware computing platform, with lots of flexible, user-adaptable IO, that also happens to fit in a laptop-sized space and has battery powered operation. Thus can be made to serve as a laptop if you want that.The critical concept here, is that he's producing a powerful computing platform that will exist as a free and open electronic document, which anyone can take and use to manufacture a full, working system. Including required software. Or they can take it as a starting point, and modify it for their own needs.Computing platforms in general have moved so far away from that ideal that they have effectively become closed boxes, getting ever more difficult to adapt for simple custom real-world control applications. And it is not accidental - it's a deliberate strategy by the large bodies involved, driven by a political desire to restrict computer users to certain approved types of activity.One result is these days you absolutely can't trust Wintel platforms to do what _you_ want, not what someone else (Microsoft, DRM owners, spy agencies, etc) wants.A fully open platform, hardware and software, is the pill to cure those ills.This is why it's political. It is a revolutionary act.

author: vvanders
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 17, 2012, 02:34:25 am
content: Quote from: TerraHertz on December 16, 2012, 11:45:39 pmYou've got to be kidding right? I know you've got a thing out for Intel but one company doesn't make a conspiracy.There's still plenty of open platforms and hardware, I think it's more a matter of complexity of mfg/design than any sort of grand scheme.Cool project though, lets hope it comes to fruition.

author: TerraHertz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 17, 2012, 05:32:30 am
content: Absolutely not kidding. Though I can understand how if you're not paying attention you've probably missed all the 'trusted platform' crap from MS/Intel over the past decade.Google Microsoft, Longhorn, Palladium, trusted platform, closed platform, DRM, encryptionin various combinations.One original pdf----Microsoft Palladium: A Business OverviewCombining Microsoft Windows Features, Personal Computing Hardware, and SoftwareApplications for Greater Security, Personal Privacy, and System Integrityby Amy Carroll, Julia Polk, Tony LeiningerMicrosoft Content Security Business UnitJune 2002----is as fine an example of corporate new-speak as you'll ever encounter.

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 17, 2012, 07:12:01 am
content: Quote from: StubbornGreek on December 16, 2012, 02:47:23 amTwo ethernet ports means you can use the FPGA to do some complex/low-level stuff in realtime, deep packet inspection etc..Trust me, its a networking thing. All the networking IT geeks are drooling.Though i do agree that it's weird to have them different speeds. Two 1gbit would seem a far better choice.

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 17, 2012, 09:08:02 am
content: The FPGA makes it interesting, but I don't think this will ever catch on as a real "laptop". It just looks like a more open Raspberry Pi, and could be a competitor to it.Quote from: TerraHertz on December 16, 2012, 11:45:39 pmUnfortunately at the same time being a completely separate architecture isn't going to increase its popularity either. The PC started out completely open (IBM provided BIOS source code listings, mobo schematics, etc.) and much of it still is open. If you really want that sort of opening revolution to happen, design an OSHW PC compatible laptop (and let the Chinese produce and sell it.)

author: peter.mitchell
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 17, 2012, 10:12:08 am
content: This board would pay for itself in bitcoins if you pt that fpga to work!

author: TerraHertz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 17, 2012, 12:02:29 pm
content: Quote from: amyk on December 17, 2012, 09:08:02 amThe same way a machette can compete with nail clippers.It's very disappointing the Raspberry Pi has a closed hardware core.QuoteIt doesn't matter. He certainly doesn't imagine this particular design will ever be mass produced. It's the availability of the design to those who consider it useful, that's important. Those who manage the evolution of the PC platform can't drag everyone in directions that contrast too absurdly with alternatives available to the technically aware. Just by existing, even in small numbers, Bunnie's machine will influence the direction of PC development.As for mass production, remember he's really producing an open-source design document, more than this specific hardware. Which means if someone wants to reformat it into something that _would_ have mass appeal, they could.I'd guess that's why he chose to have two different ethernet ports, one giabit, the other 10/100. Because this way his 'recipe' has both kinds available for other designers.QuoteActually, I have a copy of those original IBM schematics, and there's a story about them I should post here. A classic case of deliberate feature crippling, for 'future upgrade flexibility reasons'. When I get around to it. Requires a large foldout schematic to be scanned, so I can show you something. It's no big deal, just 'why the original PC parallel IO card was output only, not bi-directional'. But it's illustrative of a mindset.As for modern PCs, 'much of it still open' - no, quite the opposite. Large amounts of it are now closed, details unavailable. Even the BIOS code is encrypted.QuoteHave you ever thought about why IBM made their original PC design so easily copyable, and then did nothing when it was widely copied? Including exact BIOS images, replete with original "(c)IBM" strings. That's an interesting story too. Have a look at the PCB and VLSI technology IBM was using in mainframes of that era, which they _could_ have used in the PC to make it virtually impossible to copy.Think about what motivations IBM may have had, for the way they did it.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 17, 2012, 12:38:12 pm
content: You mean the tying of a bus direction line to ground when there was an open output available on the ls138 decoder already which would have made it bidirectional off the bat. The Centronics port was inherently bidirectional as the buffers used were available in either one way or bidirectional with the same pinout and only an enable then becoming a direction only. 2 sets of bidirectional buffers, one on the ISA bus and then the output one. A single one would have sufficed if it was one way, there would have been only 2 LSTTL loads on the bus anyway instead of 1, which was allowed in the spec.

author: TerraHertz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 17, 2012, 02:57:37 pm
content: Quote from: SeanB on December 17, 2012, 12:38:12 pmThose details are not quite correct, but I suppose like me you're recalling some old, old memories, right?I haven't dug the circuit out yet, haven't looked at it for 10+ years. But there was an LS174 6-bit latch setting board state, CPU writable. 5 of the 6 bits were used, one left open. The parallel output buffer was a bidirectional part, and yes, the DIR pin was connected to ground. But that's not the giveaway.You know how good designers like to lay out a circuit diagram so it's visually balanced, kind of like kerning in typography. Those PC schematics were drawn by that kind of designer - you get a feel for the style, and can see where the 'style' is broken for some reason.On that parallel port schematic, there's not only an unused output on the control latch, and a grounded DIR pin on the buffer, but there's a glaringly obvious visual imbalance in the schematic layout, where the line from the latch bit going to the DIR pin ONCE WAS. You can almost see the white-out. (Speaking metaphorically.)It's so clear the original designer did it right, then someone leaned over his shoulder and said, no, take that out, we don't want bidirectional yet.The manager (or whoever) couldn't see it. But to any good engineer it's very obvious.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 17, 2012, 03:54:20 pm
content: Very old.... I did make an ISA 8255 port card that had 4 of them on board ( full size card) and where i decided I wanted a _WELL_ buffered system clock available, as well as the same for the 14.3MHz video clock ( never saw anything that used that, even video cards had an on board crystal to make it) for use. Took 4 54S06 buffers and stacked them on top of each other, then soldered the pins together. Added a 100n ceramic on top of the stack and a 10uF 25V wet tantalum slug cap as decoupling. Then connected the output of the 1st inverter in the bottom of the stack to drive the other 23 inverter inputs, so that it was a single TTL load but had an output capable of driving almost any load ( 180mA source and 500mA sink capacity) you wanted. Ran a little warm, but CERDIP's are much better at power handling than PDIP. Stick a random wire on it and it made a handy comb jammer. Probably doubled the power consumption of the board, but was never really used. I was going to use the card to drive a relay board to do quick and dirty ATE, as I had plenty of IO available to simulate the needed inputs and outputs but never finished it. Next computer had no full size ISA slots.......... and had a 12mHz 286 processor. I would have needed to upgrade to 8255A's to get it working reliably on it, and shrink the protoboard to a half slot version.

author: tinhead
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 17, 2012, 03:57:09 pm
content: useless thing :- no high speed i/o ports to FPGA- outdated/too slow ADC/DAC- useless i/o connectors (2.54mm pitch headers for what?)- afaik i don't see the second LAN connected to FPGA. Having it only somewhere on shared bus make no sense, i don't need another one router.-FPGA can not be used on ARM directly, You have to develop on x86 platform and then copy bitfiles over to program FPGA.