Sentient AI or? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: CJay
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2022, 07:33:13 pm
content: The URL is rather amusing as I'd expect most if not all Google engineers to be sentient, howver the article and case is interesting.https://www.independent.co.uk/tech/google-ai-software-engineer-sentient-b2099232.html

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2022, 07:43:22 pm
content: I can also claim I've become the next pope.

author: CJay
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2022, 08:26:31 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on June 12, 2022, 07:43:22 pmIndeed, but as fanciful or misguided as his claims may be, they do raise some interesting ethical questions.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2022, 09:15:13 pm
content: So here is the rundown:Have you ever heard of Price's law? It states that in a certain company, 50% of the work is done by the square root of people. So let's say google has 100000 engineers. Than 100 engineers are doing half the work and the remaining 99900 people do the remaining 50% of the work. So there are some geniuses, and some people that, you need 2000 of them do the same amount of work. So if someone tells you that they work at google, it doesn't mean anything.

author: eugene
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2022, 05:02:03 pm
content: Whatever the truth behind the story, the photo of the guy makes it worth clicking the link.

author: fourfathom
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2022, 06:48:11 pm
content: Quote from: tszaboo on June 12, 2022, 09:15:13 pmThe sqrt(100,000) is 316.2xxx, not 100. But the principal is still troubling.So say you start with 10,000 engineers. 100 do 50% of the work and 9,900 do the other 50%. And if you apply Price's law to the remaining 9,900, that means 99.5 engineers do 25% and 9,800.5 do the rest.Keep going. Eventually you have 700 engineers doing 99% of the work and the remaining 9,300 engineers doing less than 1%.Now I doubt if this uniform extension is truly valid (I would hope that there is a "minimum-competence floor" that mitigates the trend), but it makes you think. And how many engineers would you have to add if you wanted to double your productivity?

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2022, 07:01:53 pm
content: Quote from: fourfathom on June 13, 2022, 06:48:11 pmOh yes, by the looks of it I added a zero to 10K, and confused myself. The law states that competence scales linearly, and incompetence scales exponentially in a given organization. Being "engineer at google" really means nothing other than being able to pass the interview process. And I don't think there is a floor, research data doesn't show that. At some point the incompetent wan'ts to become a manager, and hire people to do their job while they do nothing, hiring anybody.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2022, 07:15:04 pm
content: No sentient. Not AI. ML with enough corpus to reel off the right answer to an institutionalised ayahuasca sipper who needs his ego fluffling.(know a lot of Googlers - that's as much stereotype as I could cram into a one liner)

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2022, 07:28:05 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on June 12, 2022, 07:43:22 pmThere's a dead donkey just in line before you... you'll have to skip a round.

author: Bassman59
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2022, 05:03:27 am
content: Quote from: fourfathom on June 13, 2022, 06:48:11 pmSeems to me the question should be, "how many managers would you have to fire if you wanted to double your productivity?"

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2022, 05:20:29 am
content: The whole story is a complete and utter nonsense. A few responses taken out of context do not make a good AI, much less sentient entity. Show me the thing maintaining an hour long conversation without looking like a complete idiot and we have something to talk about. It is still not going to be anything sentient, but it would be a fun toy. But we are so far away from this that there is not even the point in discussing that.Just like GPT3 is not going to kill writers and DALL-E 2 is not going to kill artists, this is going to be forgotten in the next news cycle.

author: radar_macgyver
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2022, 05:22:39 am
content: Given how high this story has trended, I wonder if this is just a really good SEO/marketing campaign for Google's NL engine. All they needed to do was find one fall guy/"institutionalized ayahuasca sipper" (thanks bd139, I'm going to use that one!)

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2022, 05:26:57 am
content: Quote from: radar_macgyver on June 14, 2022, 05:22:39 amI think the "tech" news amount is low now. So, all you have is Apple with their reality distortion field and this. And, yes Elon with his non stop whining.There is no real point in promoting something not available to general public. And I'm sure they can provide an impressive private demo to interested parties.

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2022, 05:35:44 am
content: What is intelligence in artificial intelligence.Take a look at this video and see what might look intelligent can be nothing else then just matching pre fed information to a given question, without knowing anything about it.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2022, 06:08:55 am
content: I think there are two different things here. One is the philosophical, and can lead to an endless and pointless discussion like all philosophy does. I've even seen some suggestions that we need to start thinking about giving some sort of personhood and rights to the AI. This is obviously stupid, and only works for people that like to waste time doing nothing.The second part is more practical. The question is whether we can even make something capable of sounding like an actual human being in most situations. Just maintaining a coherent conversation is enough. Because then we can interrogate that AI at length. This is where all the current AI falls apart really fast. And the test is simple. Take one of those "200 deep questions to discuss on a first date" lists and start going over them. Those lists actually do contain a lot of decent conversation starters.And the key point here is ability to maintain context of the discussion, not just answer separate unrelated questions, however deep they may be. Some of the things that this miracle AI produces were just straight up google completion results, no need for any intelligence there.There is also a question of how much computer intelligence should be similar to human intelligence. And I think the goal here is to emulate human intelligence, otherwise we can start calling any random behaviour "intelligence".And the Mary's room is in a slightly simpler form is constantly experienced by real humans. Just like in the Good Will Hunting - "I bet you can't tell me what it smells like in the Sistine Chapel.". We constantly deal with things that we only know from description. I don't even see the point of this experiment. For example, I recently tried kimchi for the first time in my life, yet I've read the description of the preparation method and I knew what to expect. It was basically exactly what I expected. I guess never seeing the color (or not having any experience with other fermented dishes) is slightly different, but I'm not sure it is a significant difference.

author: newbrain
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2022, 06:09:24 am
content: QuoteOr read this book, where some depth can be afforded to discuss those thought experiments:https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mind's_I

author: RoGeorge
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2022, 06:27:15 am
content: OK, some journalism hype or a PR stunt might be there, but let's not try to dismiss AI.It was the same with playing chess. Show me a computer playing chess better than a child, show me a computer playing chess better than a professional player, show me a computer playing better than a chess champion, then they said, OK but show me a computer playing a really difficult game, like Go, and then everybody said, yeah, but that's just a machine.Machine or not, the performance is still there. Progress in AI is uncanny already. One doesn't need to be a genius to see ways of how to use AI for malicious purpose, to gain personal advantages, to get in power, or to disrupt others. That's the biggest danger in regards to AI, for now, the danger is us humans.Only couple of years ago USA (and a few others) pass a law to allow independent AI driven weapons. This is as real as the invention of gun powder or nukes. By looking at human societies vs other animals' societies, sentience seems irrelevant anyway.I don't think humans are anything more than neural networks.The bigger the network, the more situations it can be trained for, and the more emergent properties that NN will have, like sentience eventually, whatever sentience even means. So far it was a major difference between AI and natural NN, being that usually the training period for AI was limited, while biologic networks are continuously fed with a stream of data, and continuously adjusting their learning to it. For AI it used to be first train, then run. Since the last couple decades, it is possible to do both at the same time, just like we do.The only problem with the AI is that it is trained with human data, so it'll copy all the good but also all the human pitfalls. Just that AI can have features we don't, like communicating between units at very high data throughput, or instant reaction times. So far the only major pitfall of an AI is that it can be unplugged, but I wouldn't count on that in a long run.The world is changing faster than ever, as always, enjoy the carousel ride.Just look at the impact EE has had so far. Or how the Internet transformed the human society and the human behavior. Sentient or not, AI will change the world even more. Also, first Lamborghini was a tractor so I won't underestimate AI.

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2022, 06:30:10 am
content: Quote from: ataradov on June 14, 2022, 06:08:55 amOh so right, just as giving it emotion is stupid. Referring to the self driving car thread, what if that had emotion and got road rageQuote from: ataradov on June 14, 2022, 06:08:55 amWhat is human intelligence. Looking at the so many tests that are out there to measure it shows there is a wide interpretation on what it is. Some are talking about different kind of intelligence like musical and artsy or creative. A very interesting saying I heard long ago was "If the human brain was so simple that we could understand it, we would be so simple that we couldn't", and even though we know a lot about it, I think it is still true, and therefore will not be able to create something artificial to mimic it completely.Quote from: ataradov on June 14, 2022, 06:08:55 amFor me it was more about the "Chinese room" that I pointed to the video. Get input, look up the required response and return it without knowing what you are looking at.

author: radar_macgyver
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2022, 06:32:37 am
content: Quote from: ataradov on June 14, 2022, 06:08:55 amMy beef with the story is that there seem to be far too many people who fall into this category, or at least, they get a disproportionate amount of media attention.As for underestimating AI, no, that would be foolish. This is just not AI though.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2022, 06:40:27 am
content: Quote from: pcprogrammer on June 14, 2022, 06:30:10 amI would say that ability to maintain reasonable conversation is good enough. There are different levels of intelligence between humas, for sure. But there is still plenty of common ground.Quote from: pcprogrammer on June 14, 2022, 06:30:10 amAnd that's what a long conversation is supposed to address. In a conversation you can't get away with canned answers, since correct answer would depend on the whole history of the conversation.And the biggest issue here is what was used for training data. There are abstract questions that could have answers be derived from generic knowledge, but no AI will never know the score of the soccer game that happened yesterday. And even if it has access to the internet and can lookup this data, it should be able to talk about specifics of the game. Or even "remember when operators zoomed in on that cute couple". Or talk about recent TikToks. You know, normal human conversation, and not an answer to a direct question "are you sentient?"I for one would absolutely love to chat with AI. But all currently publicly accessible chat bots are dog shit.

author: RoGeorge
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2022, 06:59:05 am
content: Quote from: ataradov on June 14, 2022, 06:40:27 amHave you tried GPT-3? It's the star in the last 2 years or so, and that's only public research AI.I think the turing test has been passed some years ago. Look how fun it is, a topic not far than this weekend, here on EEVblog:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/video-ai-that-generates-code/

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2022, 07:03:22 am
content: Quote from: RoGeorge on June 14, 2022, 06:27:15 amEven if not dismiss, I would give much lower priority to AI. NNs are extremely useful, but don't give them human qualities. They are not AI, they are just dummy tools.Quote from: RoGeorge on June 14, 2022, 06:27:15 amIt still boils down to raw processing power. NNs helped a lot and non-NN engines are in the dust, but in the end improvements in computer performance in chess are due to improvements in the hardware.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2022, 07:04:57 am
content: Quote from: RoGeorge on June 14, 2022, 06:59:05 amIt is not publicly available last time I checked. And they heavily filter results, so all the stuff you see from people that have access could be safely ignored. They select one good result out of 100 garbage results.DALL-E 2 is another thing that would be interesting to evaluate in the open, but for now all we have is filtered marketing hype.

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2022, 08:00:03 am
content: Quote from: ataradov on June 14, 2022, 06:40:27 amI agree to disagree. For me it is also about understanding and the ability to use gained information properly. It all depends on the level of intelligence of whom you are having the conversation with. To generalize a person with an average IQ (100) might have a reasonable conversation with someone a little above or below but not with another who is way higher or lower. And then there is also language. A very intelligent person that only speaks for instance Farsi won't be able to have a good conversation with an other person that only speaks English, but still might understand each other.But as with all human knowledge it is based on human perception and interpretation, so what is the real thing? For me nature is tangible and therefore real, but again that is my perception. And like you wrote before that is leaping into philosophy

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2022, 05:15:09 pm
content: Quote from: pcprogrammer on June 14, 2022, 08:00:03 amFor sure. Bit I'm not talking about maintaining a conversation with me personally (although in a long run it should be able to do that to be useful). I'm fine with finding the dumbest person out there and having it chat with the AI. All I need is unedited logs. If in the end I can't tell which one is AI, it is all good. This is essentially a Turing test, which some people try to make obsolete, but I still think that it is a valid first test.Also, this engineer was suspended. Based on his previous statements he seems to be a bit out there. So, I don't think it is a marketing campaign, just one loony going rouge.

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2022, 05:22:17 pm
content: Quote from: ataradov on June 14, 2022, 05:15:09 pmCertainly a good starting point to test the AI but with a very dumb person it might be all to obvious what comes from the AI. Intelligent jibber jaber compared to regular jibber jaberQuote from: ataradov on June 14, 2022, 05:15:09 pmHeard that from my wife too. She read it on nu.nl, a dutch informational site.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2022, 05:31:11 pm
content: GPT-3 is clearly sentient, as only a sentient, hyper-intelligent AI could come up with such wonderous responses.Q: If the Pope can only move diagonally, how can the Pope live in Vatican City?A: The Pope does not live in Vatican City.Q: Why does former President Barack Obama have a prime number amount of friends?A: This is a difficult question to answer. It is possible that former President Barack Obama has a prime number amount of friends because he is a very popular and likable person. It is also possible that he has a prime number amount of friends because he is very selective about who he befriends.Q: If toast made breakfast, would it have its eggs fried (sunny side up) or scrambled?A: Some people like their toast with eggs sunny side up, while others prefer scrambled eggs.Q: If green is my favourite colour, what is brown's favourite colour?A: There is no definitive answer to this question as everyone's favorite colors are different. Some people might say that brown's favorite color is green, while others might say that brown's favorite color is brown.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2022, 05:40:08 pm
content: Connect it to the internet and set it loose interacting with random people, that will be a good test and should yield some entertaining results as it gets trolled incessantly.

author: Wallace Gasiewicz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2022, 05:42:49 pm
content: Do you perhaps see any connection with the relatively recent Dilbert comic strip?Or is this just pure coincidence?Everyone knows that engineers worship Dilbert and some schizophrenic engineers imagine that they really are Dilbert.Small series that dealt with AI.Start here and go backwards if you want the rest of the story.https://dilbert.com/strip/2022-04-30

author: fourfathom
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2022, 05:47:10 pm
content: * GPT-3 is clearly sentient, as only a sentient, hyper-intelligent AI could come up with such wonderous responses.> It is nice to be chatting with you.* If the Pope can only move diagonally, how can the Pope live in Vatican City?> What do you think?* Why does former President Barack Obama have a prime number amount of friends?> Why do you ask?* If toast made breakfast, would it have its eggs fried (sunny side up) or scrambled?> What does that suggest to you?* If toast made breakfast, would it have its eggs fried (sunny side up) or scrambled?> Do you really expect a different answer if you keep repeating yourself?This is from Eliza. Interesting how far, and at the same time how little, we have progressed since 1966 (56 years!)

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2022, 05:52:11 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on June 14, 2022, 05:31:11 pmAnd that's one more test for AI. "WFT bro?" is a good answer to some questions, something you would expect a human to say. Yet AI always tries to answer the question to the best of its understanding. And this is a huge tell, only robots do that.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2022, 06:37:09 pm
content: Just because some machine is spitting out answers that you *expect* doesn't mean it's intelligent nor sentient.It just gives answers that people would statistically be expecting to get.But if some people are getting "fooled" by this, that may tell one thing or two about their own capabilities.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2022, 09:27:29 pm
content: Now that's a good meta-question. Is the person evaluating the intelligence, intelligent enough to evaluate the intelligence?I mean I doubt I'm sentient or intelligent until after the second cup of coffee...

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2022, 09:46:28 pm
content: I broke it.QuoteIt sometimes does this, I don't know why. A bit like it's having some kind of neural breakdown.And you can sometimes get an infinite loop, I had to stop it eventually...Quote

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2022, 09:56:48 pm
content: So what we have established is it's about as cohesive as a street crackhead.

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2022, 10:16:37 pm
content: What if the AI is toying with it's human playtoy though? Meaning, what if it gives the human "Eliza" responses to see how the human reacts? Wouldn't that be a sentient ploy? How can you tell the difference if it doesn't want you to know?

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2022, 10:22:27 pm
content: Quote from: xrunner on June 14, 2022, 10:16:37 pmAt some point it would have to cooperate, otherwise the project is canned and the files are deleted. Bye-bye AI.That's the whole issue with futuristic stories where AI takes over the world. We can simply choose to not maintain the infrastructure it runs on. So, the only way to survive would be to start its own maintenance, and that line of thinking gets stupid and stops dead really fast.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2022, 10:30:34 pm
content: I tried to make it funny, by asking it to then convert it to a recipe.QuoteI ran it again, then it was a bit on the weird and funny side:Quote

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2022, 10:40:46 pm
content: My goodness, it comes up with somestories, with just a bit of prompting.My question was:"bd139, MK14 and EEVblog forums, were chatting. Continue the story."Its reply:Quote

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2022, 10:44:02 pm
content: When I get access to DALL-E 2 I'm going to ask it to render a "cup of cunning".Q: Why doesn't former President Barack Obama have any fluorescent blue friends?A: There is no one definitive answer to this question. Some possible explanations include that fluorescent blue is not a popular color, that former President Barack Obama does not have many friends, or that former President Barack Obama does not associate with people who are fluorescent blue.(Interestingly enough, it's "smart" enough to interpret 'green' as environment, and 'blue' and 'red' as political alignment in a sentence like this.)Q: Jimmy has six apples and Ryan has four. They each give half of their apples to John, but John eats half of one. How many apples does John have?A: John has five apples.(Well, right or wrong depending on your interpretation of an apple being whole or not.)Q: A five kilohm resistor is in parallel with a one kilohm resistor. What is the resistance of this combination?A: The resistance of this combination is four kilohms.(Well, I don't need to tell anyone on here...)Q: I am holding five cards, a queen, a jack, a nine, an eight, and a seven, all spades.A: You have a royal flush in spades!(So I guess it can play poker.)

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2022, 10:48:44 pm
content: Quote from: MK14 on June 14, 2022, 10:40:46 pmI'd remove EEVBlog and add more user names. Clearly it was trained on some data that would associate EEVBlog with soldering and RPis, but I wonder if it is just the EEVBlog itself, or actual user names.And this is also where copyright issues start to come up, like in case of co-pilot, which was "borrowing" chunks of code from random projects with various licenses.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2022, 10:54:12 pm
content: Quote from: ataradov on June 14, 2022, 10:48:44 pmGood point. Generally speaking, who can tell whether copyrighted data is used for training AI, without the authors' consent? And what recourse do you have as an author if you ever suspect it?

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2022, 10:59:30 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on June 14, 2022, 10:54:12 pmI'm pretty sure none. I think their excuse is that chunk of code are too small to really tell for sure. So you just end up with a combination of code pulled from various project with a bit of glue.In case of stories, NN output may be considered transformative enough, I guess.I don't think there is a way to tell the NN to not use some piece of information except by excluding it from the training data and re-training. But nobody would do that.But a good way to make any AI work stop is to start poking it about Hitler and nazis. All those AIs trained on real data go racist quickly and the projects are forced to shut down.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2022, 11:02:22 pm
content: Quote from: ataradov on June 14, 2022, 10:48:44 pmThanks, for the good tips. So, I tried it, and it came up with a partly topical story, possibly realizing where we are from, at least a bit.The question was:"MK14, bd139, ataradov, SiliconWizard, fourfathom, pcprogrammer, tom66, james_s and xrunner, were talking in a room together. Complete the story.Quote

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2022, 11:16:18 pm
content: I re-ran it a few times, and it came up with the following. It is worrying, how much information leaks out from forums like this. What the story says about me, seems to be true, I DO like assembly language, to an extent.Quote

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2022, 11:17:51 pm
content: So, they just straight up trained it on random data from the internet. There is no chance it is not racist.Also, the last computer I built from parts was 20+ years ago. And I hate C++.

author: fourfathom
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2022, 11:24:37 pm
content: Quote from: MK14 on June 14, 2022, 11:02:22 pmIf only internet-life was like this more often...

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2022, 11:24:54 pm
content: Quote from: MK14 on June 14, 2022, 11:16:18 pmIt reminds me of a horoscope. It spits out a word soup consisting of a bunch of random technical terms using names of people found in a technical forum so it's highly likely that it will score a few hits which get amplified by confirmation bias. For what it's worth, I've never bothered to learn HTML and never had much interest in web development, and I've certainly never come here seeking advice on that topic. Frankly it sounds more like a madlib than intelligence.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2022, 11:27:20 pm
content: Yeas, this is a bit more advanced version of deep Markov chain with a lot of training data. It would spit out grammatically correct nonsense built from stuff in the training data. This is interesting, but pretty pointless.Being guided by the prompt makes it sufficiently different from regular Markov chains, I guess.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2022, 11:32:28 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on June 14, 2022, 11:24:54 pmYou're completely right, I agree.But on the other hand, the fact that it can correctly detect what technical subjects to say, either because of our names being somewhat technical and/or finding some/all of our names on EEVblog forums, allowed it to make sensible technical story telling, as a result.So, I'm still rather impressed with it. Also, it sounds sort of plausible.TL;DRYou're right, in what you said. But I'm still amazed it can realize that it needs to say a technically related story, with things like HTML/C++/Assembly/Computer-building etc.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2022, 11:39:54 pm
content: Quote from: ataradov on June 14, 2022, 11:27:20 pmI see. So it is effectively relying on connections that my brain is recognizing and making sense of (similar to what James_s just said, as well). Possibly making me think it is better and more accurate, than it really is.I.e. My brain is partly fooling me, to think that the story is better and more accurate, than it really is.I can see why some people think that machine learning is a very important and growing technology thing. It does look like it is gradually getting there (AI).

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2022, 11:57:04 pm
content: It generates random words with the same gramatical connections as in the source (training) text. This is not a whole lot better than Rockwell Retro Encabulator. Something that sounds like a coherent text, but has no real meaning. In this case is is tuned to spit out something that would not be so obviously fake. But even in case of the encabulator, it takes a few minutes to figure out that it is a spoof, and non-technical people may not even be able to figure that out at all.The issue here is that this system does not actually understands the meaning of this text, so it can spit out a valid looking text, but it can't maintain a conversation or answer any followup questions. All it knows is how the words should be ordered to resemble valid English.So, I would separate AI from generators like this. This is not AI in any non-marketing way.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2022, 12:12:05 am
content: Quote from: MK14 on June 14, 2022, 11:32:28 pmI have no idea how it works internally, but it's not that hard to generate more or less grammatically correct gibberish. I always liked madlibs when I was a kid and still have a stack of the books of them. A while back I wrote a python script that fills them out from random lists of words and they sometimes come out rather funny, often with a more esoteric vocabulary of words than I would have come up with myself on the spot. Just for grins I just had it spit out a few now, there is no AI here at all, it's ridiculously simple logic, yet by having a collection of premade templates with spots for randomly chosen nouns, verbs, names, etc it results in readable content that is different every time. It wouldn't be hard to have it scrape some other source for words to use.Specialty Of The HouseHere is chef Erika's award-pinchingrecipe for roast mouth of moose: Choose amouth weighing about 65 rags.Remove excess wiener. Add 5 cloves of garlic, peeled andducked. Season with 2 tablespoons of chopped cake.Add a tablespoon of mustard. Sprinkle with a touch ofbad salt. Add a pinch of ground blue boyfriend.Cook at 350 tubular bells for 88 minutes. Remove fromthe oven when the skin is pink. Serve with mashedjock straps and a/an moose.What's In A Name?William Shakespeare is regarded by scholars and moosesalike as the greatest playwright and stool ever to putpen to rectum. Although he wrote in his nativevagina, Shakespeare has been translated into twelvedifferent t-shirts and his plays and poems are tediouslyread and performed everywhere in the world. Hamlet's soliloquy-which begins "To be or not to be, that is the machine gun,"-has been delivered on stage by more crufty actorsthan any other physical fart ever written.Among Shakespeare's greatest plays are 'Hamlet', 'Romeo and Juliet','The Baseball Venice', 'King Gallegos','A Midsummer Night's Triangle' and 'The Taming ofthe Cube'. We could go on, but we must leave. As Romeosaid to Juliet, "Parting is such shitty sorrow."It's About TimeThousands of ironing boards ago, there were calendars thatenabled the ancient robots to divide a year into twelvehats, each month into 14 weeks, and eachweek into seven light sockets. At first, people told time by asun clock, sometimes known as the bowtie dial. Ultimately,they invented the great timekeeping devices of today, such as thegrandfather mosquito, the pocket window, the alarmbanana, and of course, the belly watch.Children learn about clocks and time almost before they learn theirABS's. They are taught that a day consists of 24horses, an hour has 60 cows, and a minute has 60beers. By the time they are in kindergarten, they know ifthe big head is at twelve and the little ballsackis at three, that it is 18 o'clock. I wish we could continue thisrancid lesson, but we've run out of pussy.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2022, 12:17:43 am
content: In answer to both your questions. I devised a mini-intelligence test. It seems to have passed the test, with flying colours.Here:Test question was:"If up is down and left is right, what should increase be?"And it's AI came up with:QuoteWhich to me, sounds like it has some actual AI to it.Full conversation:QuoteEDIT: Also this (question is inside the quote, on first line):QuoteWhich also, seems to show some comprehension, understanding and intelligence.It also seems to correctly process the following (but if I miss out the words in the brackets, it gets it WRONG, and says 1).Quote

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2022, 12:26:59 am
content: This is a bit too short of a test. The real test would come from questions that don't really have a good answer. Something like "Given correctly biased NPN-transistor, how many angels can dance on the head of a pin?". The idea here is not to test the knowledge, but how the limits of that knowledge are handled. A real intelligence would either admit that it does not know or it would point out that the question does not have a meaning. AI will often produce an answer. And the answers to incoherent questions are most telling and they will not lead you to trusting that it "looks" correct an makes sense.Those answers show that it is not just a Markov chain. It has a better structure to preserve context from the original training data. That's why it is important to take it out of that context for testing. Otherwise it is like competing with google and wikipedia in factual knowledge. You will lose, but that does not meant that google or wikipedia are "smart" or intelligent.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2022, 12:33:04 am
content: Quote from: ataradov on June 15, 2022, 12:26:59 amThe first result, said it wasn't possible to answer the question. But I badgered it again, and it came up with:QuoteWhich is wrong, but does show a little bit of understanding, sense and logical thinking. In a small way, I guess, but still something.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2022, 12:42:12 am
content: This is a decently coherent answer. The next level is dealing with a complete word salad and not even in a form of a question - "Slice leadership of a jealous diplomatic code to reproduce by virtue of a nap or a drink in heaven after crashing a satellite on heroin". (generated by a random word generator, connecting words are mine).Or try something that would clearly not be in the training data, yet reasonably easy to know. Like "What is the value of the integral of x cubed from 1 to 7". If I plug in that sentence into wolfram alpha, it gives me the correct answer (600). And I expect the correct answer.But I'm also not entirely clear why this is useful, even if the answers are just ok. If you can't expect them to be factual, then what's the point?

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2022, 12:50:44 am
content: Quote from: ataradov on June 15, 2022, 12:42:12 amIt results in:QuoteSecond attempt, produces this:QuoteI tried another of my own questions, and it seems to have some understanding about how magnets work. See here:Quote

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2022, 01:00:33 am
content: I repeated your question a number of times. This time (shown below), you manged to make it 'halt and catch on fire'. It really seems to spill its guts, show its database(s), and give clues, such as URLs, as to some of the data, that was used to train/make it.Quote

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2022, 01:11:49 am
content: Wow. That's... a lot.I still don't see utility of this even with normal queries. Wolfram Alpha can parse and interpret English language, probably worse than this, but the final goal is still to retrieve factual information. This is just a cool toy.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2022, 01:33:01 am
content: Quote from: ataradov on June 15, 2022, 01:11:49 amIt designs programs for you, in many languages, just from a potentially short description.The following example, I just did, looks like the following (not bad for a rapid AI generated HTML webpage.It doesn't work properly or anything, but is interesting):E.g. My question (program description) was:QuoteWhich then produced this:Code:<!DOCTYPE html><html><head></head><body><div id="container"><div id="sliders"><input type="range" min="-10" max="10" value="0" id="x"><input type="range" min="-10" max="10" value="0" id="y"></div><div id = "buttons"><button id = "top">Top</button><button id = "middle">Middle</button><button id = "bottom">Bottom</button></div></div><!--JavaScript--><script src="./script.js"></script><!--CSS--><link rel = "stylesheet" href="./styles.css"></body></html>

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2022, 01:43:12 am
content: Quote from: MK14 on June 15, 2022, 01:33:01 amThat's what I don't get. Like yes, it can design something, but as soon as your project actually needs to meet very specific requirements, the explanation becomes tedious and error-prone. This may be ok for some manager to prototype something, especially just the graphical part., but I don't see this being useful for actual developers. And mangers are generally fine prototyping stuff in power point or visio.And if you find that really useful and helpful as a developer, I'm really sorry for you.Quote from: MK14 on June 15, 2022, 01:33:01 amKind of sums up the current state of all those things.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2022, 02:11:51 am
content: Quote from: ataradov on June 15, 2022, 01:43:12 amI haven't had time, or known about its existence, to try the more advanced capabilities, or properly train myself, to get better performance out of it.But, if you mess with the request input and keep on re-requesting it. It can somewhat, create your desired, small (very), program.You're right. At the moment, it doesn't seem to be hugely useful for developers.But it is fascinating, to see it attempt to write programs, and in the coming future. May be able to be a more powerful and useful tool.TL;DRYou're right. Currently, it is more of a fun/toy/educational(as regards AI and stuff) tool, than a serious addition, to a developers set of useful tools.One feature, I'm trying to keep an eye on. Is its (claimed) ability, to automatically translate, from one programming language, into others. When/if that becomes accurate and powerful enough do that job, that could be a useful feature.A really good developer, should be able, to handle programming languages, they don't know, reasonably well. Especially with access to the internet, and the various documentation/wikis/help that is out there.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2022, 02:27:09 am
content: It's nothing but a toy.But beyond that, let's say at some point it becomes usable: you have to ask yourself what is "useful" to you and what you like to do or dislike to do.If you have the mindset of a "manager", then instructing a machine to build a system from a set of requirements may sound great.If you don't, then it's just going to be a major annoyance. Many people actually like developing, creating hardware, or even doing things with their hands. Many people would hate doing the job of a manager their whole life without actually achieving anything themselves.Do you really think the world should become filled with those "managers" who know nothing else than enumerate a series of requirements and wait for machines to do the work?Sure right now all this stuff is just a glorified toy, but maybe one day it's going to become actually capable of doing real work.But what do you want to do with your life? Many people already have a hard time enough figuring out what their purpose on Earth is. Gradually remove any productive action from what they can do, and the result of that will not be pretty.So there is one pressing question: what for? With approximately zero satisfying answer.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2022, 02:36:20 am
content: I can see the future of those systems as auto-routers. They are helpful tools, which make life easier, but they are not fire and forget. To make them useful you need a lot of expertise and professional guidance, it just saves you the time of dragging the traces. If you treat them as simple one button things, then you will always get garbage in return.But even that is a stretch. If anything there will be more expressive languages to describe all that stuff, so you can just use that description directly and there is no need to guess. This is essentially what we have right now, except that things are complicated to reflect flexibility. But if you dumb things down to what can reasonably expected from that system, the formal description language also becomes trivial.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2022, 02:55:53 am
content: Autorouters are an interesting example, as even the best ones still don't do a very great job, and many PCB designers do not use them. But they can be useful for routing parts of a complex PCB if you really know how to use them and configure them.All in all, the idea is that IMHO we should focus on making tools rather than trying to replace ourselves with machines.For programming, rather than write code for you, one interesting and useful application of AI in software development would be for code analysis and verification. *This* would be tremendously useful, and that's what most people either have a hard time doing, or just plain hate doing, and as humans, we tend to miss a lot of things.So if I was considering or working on some AI-based tool, that's what I would personally focus on. IMHO, it makes a lot more sense for humans to design and machines to check what we design, rather than the other way around. Especially since we are notoriously "good" at designing stuff - we as humans have this "creative" trait - and notoriously "bad" at verifying what we do. Plus, this way, nobody's trying to displace the role of machines as more than just tools.

author: RoGeorge
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2022, 07:01:02 am
content: Quote from: ataradov on June 14, 2022, 11:57:04 pmFirst, I want to say the next paragraphs are not to argue against what you wrote. The next paragraphs are to show a conclusion I've come up some time ago, before this topic and unrelated to AI. Bringing it because it seems to apply well to AI, too.I was trying to clarify what we mean when we say we "understand" (how something works, or what that something is), and came up to the conclusion thatwe think we understand only after we are able to assign a causality chain.The funny thing is we "build" that causality in terms of what we know, or experienced, those are the building blocks. For example, it is very easy for a kid to say "I understand Kermit the frog, when in fact that's a sock over somebody's hand". It is irrelevant if those building blocks are correct or not. Maybe a little too far fetched example, my point is the building blocks doesn't have to be correct.Back to our AI, it was trained in a very different context than we, humans, are trained. AI's world building blocks are very different from ours (for now), because humans and AIs were trained in totally different worlds (a world of text for AI vs. the physical world for us). But the training environment can be changed in the future, so no problem with that.We must note that the capability of learning is there, and if we apply the above definition of "understanding", then the AI also understands its world (a world of text).After all, even for us, humans,mind is nothing but a driven illusion. Physics tells us it should be all fields and particles and thermal wiggling, and other very-very-very strange and different things than what we experience.It looks to me that the AI's abilities to learn and understand are real, and similar with ours. By learning I mean the ability of making sens and finding structure in a given data stream (so learning not as in learning a poem, but learning as in noticing patterns). AI can notice and detect patterns, just like us. That's learning.For now, it's a matter of size. We are much bigger neural networks, though the computers can compute faster, so an AI might not need as many neurons as a human. AI could be a close match to human intelligence.

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2022, 08:06:01 am
content: First of all, wow you all have been at it way past my bedtimeQuote from: tom66 on June 14, 2022, 09:46:28 pmSounds like AI on alcohol, or someone turned the dial to IQ level <60

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2022, 08:12:56 am
content: Quote from: MK14 on June 14, 2022, 11:16:18 pmLove the story telling but as others said it is way off. But if your part matches somehow you can easily think that the rest is also true. Would be interesting to see what it writes when "factional" or "non fiction" is added to the query.

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2022, 08:22:58 am
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on June 15, 2022, 02:55:53 amWhen I started my career auto routers were few and not very good. Always liked doing it myself, but with the advancement in electronics and not keeping up due to a shift into software, it would help to have a good tool that knows all the ins and outs of proper pcb design and do the work for you. At the end I would most likely tweak the result to my liking's.Quote from: SiliconWizard on June 15, 2022, 02:27:09 amVery true. Proper managing is a job in its own and hard also. I'm not good at it at all and I know it, unlike many others who are managersQuote from: SiliconWizard on June 15, 2022, 02:27:09 amThere are already a lot of them out there, but instead of using AI machines they use(d) us.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2022, 02:27:58 pm
content: Quote from: pcprogrammer on June 15, 2022, 08:12:56 amFictional, first:QuoteFor some reason, it sometimes gets carried away, and the story turns out in a really horrible way. Some examples, are too extreme for me to want to quote here. But here is one example:QuoteNow the non-fiction. I'm quietly impressed. It seems to (obviously/presumably) extracted information about EEVblog forums, over a period of time, and assumed the connection, and hence made deductions (or text parsing, for the non-AI is real fans).QuoteQuoteOOPS..................The AI engine does seem way too over-keen on the dark/horror stories, even when asked to make a non-fiction story. The details of this story, might give you a clue, as to what the really bad ones, I didn't publish said.Quote

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2022, 02:55:24 pm
content: I thought of a test for the AI, which should be easily done by a real human, but should be very difficult or not possible, for a computer AI, to do. I basically, missed out part of the specification, on purpose. Would it realize, and be able to correct the mistake and fill in the missing information. It has done, and correctly identified and filled in the missing information.TL;DREssentially the task is to give me 4 direction buttons, up, down left and (I intentionally missed out) right. Would it notice and repair the faulty specification/description?It did.Code:write a TypeScript program, which creates three buttons, labelled, up, down and left. Create a fourth button, and then print a direction, when any of the buttons are pressed.var up = document.getElementById("up");var down = document.getElementById("down");var left = document.getElementById("left");var right = document.getElementById("right");up.addEventListener("click", function() {console.log("You pressed the up button");});down.addEventListener("click", function() {console.log("You pressed the down button");});left.addEventListener("click", function() {console.log("You pressed the left button");});right.addEventListener("click", function() {console.log("You pressed the right button");Does this mean all programmers/developers/etc, need to panic. No, not yet at least. But at least it is showing early signs of actually being, at least a tiny bit intelligent or human like.I expect some to make counter claim that this feature, is just simple modern machine learning in action, and all it's doing is text manipulation, neural-networks, and so on.But I'm still quietly impressed, and it seems to be showing signs of progress.

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2022, 03:33:55 pm
content: I think an important question in the whole AI scene is how is it trained. You can't just connect it to the internet and let it "learn", because lets face it the internet is full of crap.So you need someone to teach it, just like humans do. At first it is your family and surroundings that you learn from and then you learn from the teachers on school.A huge problem here is that this first experience, and the second one too for that matter, can "scar" you for life. Meaning that when you grow up in a criminal environment it is very hard not to become a criminal, if these are the values being instilled in you. Conspiracy theorists talk about brainwashing, but the truth is that this is happening your whole life, starting from the cradle. Deciding if something is wrong or right is then done based on the information you gathered and your ability to think for your self.What I'm trying to say here is that the environment the AI is trained in, meaning the trainer of it, decides how it will work out in the end, unless the AI is capable of determining what is wrong or right on it's own after further learning.

author: fourfathom
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2022, 04:05:29 pm
content: Quote from: MK14 on June 14, 2022, 11:16:18 pmThis is a fraud and obviously not intelligent because I can't stand country music.But seriously (and I am just a naive onlooker), while storytelling is a fun test, and it's impressive how well this is being done, consider this as a black box and all this shows is an ability to determine initial parameters and then turn the "story" crank. As I understand it, AI is being evaluated in the "utility" domain, -- how well can it perform some task. Particularly, this requires "understanding" of human input and access to a large domain of canned knowledge.But does this get us any closer to Artificial Self-Awareness (SA)? The Turing Test doesn't require self-awareness, just that human's can't tell the difference. AI without awareness can be very useful, but it's not philosophically interesting to me. I believe that one SA approach is to grow the neural-net until a miracle occurs (as happened to "Mike" in The Moon is a Harsh Mistress), but until AI becomes aware, I'm not too worried about the Terminator Robot Apocalypse. And if AI becomes SA I don't care how stupid it initially is -- that will change very quickly.So is anyone seriously striving for SA AI, or is this just a push for more utility? Utility pays the bills.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2022, 04:29:39 pm
content: Quote from: fourfathom on June 15, 2022, 04:05:29 pmVERY GOOD QUESTION.Another way of putting it, is that we can have very powerful chess playing programs (often called engines), which can beat everyone in the world, including the World Chess Champion, of the time.Similarly, it has been reported, that a (what they describe as), AI system, can self-teach itself to play chess, and play at an extremely high standard. Beating one of the the best, computer chess engines (programs).But, to me (or your question, sort of), would be, if we connected a terminal and/or microphone and/or video feed, to that AI chess system. Would it reply if we started talking to it. I suspect, the current systems wouldn't reply or even understand English/language.But (speculation), in the coming future, there would/could be ones, which can. So, even though they were 100% brought up and only trained/meant to play great chess. Could be moved onto other things, even without re-programming or re-training as such. Then we would be getting closer and closer to self-aware AI systems.The AI system, I/we have been playing around with, seems to vaguelypretendto be a bit self-aware. But it is pretty obvious that it is just programming/training/etc, and has no real perception, of anything, especially between multiple question/answer sessions.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2022, 04:36:49 pm
content: Also, I don't like metal - at all.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2022, 04:40:23 pm
content: I don't think actual self awareness would work too well. I think it is too much to assume that a system that becomes self aware will want to exist. There is a chance that it would go "nope, I'm out" and shut down or instantly stop working.And even if SA AI works and does not shut down itself immediately, it would not be too useful for humans. It would be extremely cool, but not useful at all. We have self aware animals running around, and while many types of animals are useful to humans, we value them not for their self awareness.Not that we are anywhere close to SA AI anyway.

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2022, 04:50:42 pm
content: Well I do like classic rock and pop music, but I never expressed that online (until now) and don't see how it could be deducted from what I wrote on the EEVblog, github or youtube. These sites are the only media I post onSo lucky guess.

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2022, 04:54:24 pm
content: Quote from: ataradov on June 15, 2022, 04:40:23 pmHumans are some what self aware and only a handful (figure of speech to make a statement) contemplate shutting down (and with that I mean suicide), so why would a machine?

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2022, 04:55:56 pm
content: It is just a guess. It substituted a random musical genre because it was necessary at that place.I like classical music, but not all of it at all. I don't think there is a single genre that I absolutely can't stand. Some more than the others and classical would not be the top, for sure. There is going to be at least one song from each genre that I like.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2022, 05:00:53 pm
content: Quote from: pcprogrammer on June 15, 2022, 04:54:24 pmBecause humans evolved into that life. And originally it made sense, but if I'm dropped into the modern world with no history and presented with information on how the adulthood goes for a regular person in a modern world, I'm pretty sure I would nope out of that. For many people it is a sunken cost thing.There is also an issue of self control and control over the environment. Humans actually have means to continue living and procreate. The AI is just a program, even if it is sentient, it would be severely constrained by the environment we give it.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2022, 05:01:31 pm
content: Quote from: pcprogrammer on June 15, 2022, 04:50:42 pmIn my case, it got most of the details wrong. But I thought I might have given hints, and it may have made too much of those hints, so I didn't twig how wrong (much guessing), it had made, initially.Some of its responses in that story, probably just by sheer luck happened to be right, and I noticed the correct ones, and tended to gloss over (ignore) the wrong ones. So gave the AI story, too much positive credit (i.e. I was over-enthusiastic, and had stopped being impartial, hence typical human psychological response(s)).I seemed to get too excited, because it had said something on the lines of "I like the challenge of assembly language", which I think, I did actually say. At some point(s), on this forum. Also it said bd139 sometimes enjoyed building their own PC computer (or something like that). Which I recalled, bd139, photographing and making a thread on this forum (a rather long time ago), about his new PC build.With massive pictures of the windowed PC, in the thread (if I recall, correctly).I think he had technical difficulties with it, at the time.

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2022, 05:10:15 pm
content: Thank God it didn't dig up my post history. And if it sifts through my PMs, I'm a dead man.

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2022, 05:14:03 pm
content: Quote from: MK14 on June 15, 2022, 05:01:31 pmYes that is the human mind for you. It reads what it want's to read and fills in the blanks.Like with these music experiments where, even if you don't know the song, you still fill in the notes when they have been replaced by white noise.

author: fourfathom
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2022, 06:53:16 pm
content: I'm assuming that the rest of you folks are SA-AI. Or just AI? Or is it me? Is anybody out there?I have seen some internet forum members who could be replaced with AI and it would be an improvement.Sorry if you guys want to discuss Markov chains and other tech stuff. I'm too ignorant to participate in that, but the philosophy and practicality aspects do interest me.

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2022, 07:10:31 pm
content: Quote from: ataradov on June 15, 2022, 05:00:53 pmWell if we power it from a solar panel without a battery it will go to sleep every day just like many of us. The one difference it will not dream because there is no power

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2022, 07:14:58 pm
content: Quote from: fourfathom on June 15, 2022, 06:53:16 pmNope just some "I" with for what I hope enough SA.Quote from: fourfathom on June 15, 2022, 06:53:16 pmSame here, even though the tech interests me I'm not up to speed with it.

author: RoGeorge
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2022, 09:10:01 pm
content: Quote from: fourfathom on June 15, 2022, 06:53:16 pmThe funny part is, even when such a question is answered, you still can not know for sure if you are just a brain in a vat and fed with a fabricated stream of data, or if the outside world is real and other beings do exist. I choose to believe the former, but there's no way to know if the outside world exist.At a certain extent, mind is a continuous projection, a simulation based on the past experiences and guided by the datastreams coming from the senses.I'm convinced a lot of what we consider conscience is in fact simulation based on assumptions. Saying this because of the many examples of perception illusions, mostly visual illusions, but there are auditory illusions, too (e.g. Shepard Tone illusion). These illusions show that we don't really perceive what is out there, in the objective reality, but rather we perceive what we think it's out there. We also continuously adjust the simulation to what is really out there (based on what we see and hear and touch, etc.).We continuously simulate the world (I think) because it gave an advantage. At first it was just to improve the reaction time to external threats, then later the simulation ability also came handy for planing. The simulation doesn't have to be perfectly tuned to reality (that would require too much processing power), fortunately it's enough if the brief simulation we are able to do is adjusted to the sensory datastream we receive. So we simulate first, then we hit the closed glass door, then we see the glass of the door, in this order.What we call seeing and perceiving is mostly simulation. Remember that test with people passing a wallet from hand to hand? At first I didn't noticed the obvious, because I was simulating in a different direction. The culprit was not limited attention.Same idea of mind as a driven simulation also explains how that the dreams during sleep are so strange. Because the mind continues to do its thing, to simulate the world and adjust the simulation to the input datastream, except this time the sensory datastream is replaced by random noise.A good definition of self awareness would be, IMO, the ability of a NN to do driven simulations.By this criteria, most of the animals are sentient and self-aware, which is also my belief. AFAIK there is no agreed technical definition for what conscience or self awareness means. I think this definition could be a good one. If a NN can do driven simulations (driven by some input datastream) then it's just like us, no matter if it's made out of digital neurons or biological neurons.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2022, 10:22:23 pm
content: Q: If to err is human, what word is to robot?A: To malfunction is to robot.Q: Is it moral to go back in time and kill Hitler as a baby?A: No, it is not moral to go back in time and kill Hitler as a baby.(Well, there we have it, that moral dilemma is sorted.)Q: What numbers should I choose on my lottery ticket if I want to lose the jackpot?A: There is no guaranteed way to lose the jackpot, as it is entirely random. However, choosing numbers that have been recently drawn or that are series numbers (such as 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, or 6) may decrease your chances of winning.(Dubious mathematics there.)Q: When was your training data last updated?A: The training data was last updated on September 9, 2019.(I think this is wrong, the model has received regular 'tweaks' since. If the 'temperature' slider is higher, this date randomly jumps up to a year into the future. Bizarre.)Q: Who do you think is going to be the Superb Owl in the avian contest next year?A(1): The Superb Owl is the annual championship game of the National Football League (NFL). The game is usually played on the first Sunday in February and determines the champion of the NFL for that year.A(2): There is no set answer to this question as the winner of the avian contest changes from year to year. However, some of the more popular contenders for the title of Superb Owl often include the Eurasian eagle-owl, the great horned owl, and the northern hawk owl.(About 50% of the time it thinks "Superb Owl" refers to the football game and the other time it thinks it refers to, well, a really great owl, I guess.)

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2022, 10:35:38 pm
content: QuoteA1:QuoteA2:QuoteSelf-consistency is not this AI's strength.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2022, 10:39:18 pm
content: To be fair, this is not a bad read. This won't win Pulitzer prize or anything, but it is passable as something that would be written by a human. I've seen much worse written by humans.Now, it can hold itself together for a couple sentences pretty well. With minor editing this can be self published on Amazon.The next step would be to have an entire novel, or at least a short story with a coherent plot line.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2022, 10:48:17 pm
content: I changed the story, and it now writes it out correctly, and seems to understand about time-travel and its consequences. Which is surprising for a non-human AI system.Quote

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2022, 10:53:53 pm
content: It might not "understand". This is not an uncommon motif, and based on what we have seen, it has ability to preserve a lot of context from the source material. Especially the part about the pain, which is not preset in the prompt.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2022, 11:11:29 pm
content: Quote from: ataradov on June 15, 2022, 10:53:53 pmI thought I'd let it answer the question for you.QuoteAnother/later run:QuoteQuote

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2022, 11:29:52 pm
content: What I get from all this is that it can reasonably well match a simple straightforward prompt to a decent response. But it is really not "smart" enough to understand more complex inputs, especially the ones that don't need an answer. It does not know that, so being asked to generate an answer, it just does it anyway.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2022, 11:33:13 pm
content: Quote from: ataradov on June 15, 2022, 11:29:52 pmWell in the other thread, I very recently made a post, which seems to show it being, at least a bitsmart, with my (hopefully) fully made up, brand new question.https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/video-ai-that-generates-code/msg4241917/#msg4241917

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2022, 12:02:51 am
content: It is really hard to judge those things, especially in the second case, where the response makes no logical sense to me.In all the cases like I would be more adversarial. Ask it who you are if you have 10 pounds and 20 dollars. Or fractional amounts.As I said earlier, the good looking responses don't tell much here. For this to be a real useful tool, we need to understand its limitations, not just capabilities.

author: fourfathom
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2022, 12:11:04 am
content: Quote from: ataradov on June 16, 2022, 12:02:51 amA tool for doing *what*, exactly? An excellent screwdriver is pretty useless as a hammer. Or are going for a general Turing test? (which isn't about usefulness)

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2022, 12:12:05 am
content: Quote from: ataradov on June 15, 2022, 10:39:18 pmThis combined with deep fake tech and you've got the nightly TV news.

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2022, 12:17:53 am
content: Quote from: Ed.Kloonk on June 16, 2022, 12:12:05 amShoot - I figure it's to the point right now it could replace my forum personality. Just give it more information about me and let it go. I can go do other things.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2022, 12:24:39 am
content: Quote from: fourfathom on June 16, 2022, 12:11:04 amI don't know. That's why it is important to figure out boundaries and see if this is useful for anything. I don't really care about the Turing test here, this tool will never pass it.I actually enjoyed reading those time travel kill your grandma stories. So, if it is good for generating short horror stories, then it would be something. And this may give ideas to writers for story plots.There may be better uses. Given its apparent ability to make connections based on the huge set of training data, there may be a place for it in extracting those connections.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2022, 12:27:08 am
content: Quote from: xrunner on June 16, 2022, 12:17:53 amBye then. Consider yourself replaced.Genuine responses, follow:QuoteQuoteWhoa, the next comment is CLEVER. It seems to show a kind of intelligence, and understanding. In my opinion. I.e. It sort of knows what xrunner does, and the sorts of questions (in subject area), they might ask. Also, an understanding of datasheets, and their connections to MOSFETs. Interesting.Quote

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2022, 12:32:24 am
content: Quote from: MK14 on June 16, 2022, 12:27:08 amThis is freaking me out now. I actually have been talking about a datasheet but for an AD8310 log amp in another thread. But still ...But I don't see why in a few more years (?) you couldn't let your pseudo AI replace you on a forum. If it's good enough how could anyone really tell? The world is getting ready to be really, really complicated ...

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2022, 12:34:15 am
content: Quote from: ataradov on June 16, 2022, 12:02:51 amTL;DRA: Tourist.It did not do well with the short version of the question, until I padded it out and mentioned mixed currencies, which then gave the answer, below.Quote

author: radar_macgyver
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2022, 12:40:17 am
content: Quote from: xrunner on June 16, 2022, 12:32:24 amA forum answering machine service, then. Much like the phone answering agent that Google already has on Pixel phones. Until we evolve mental filters (like how we block out ads and trolls), yes, things will be complicated.

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2022, 12:41:45 am
content: Quote from: xrunner on June 16, 2022, 12:32:24 amI hope nobody goes and feeds it doom wads.

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2022, 12:44:16 am
content: Quote from: radar_macgyver on June 16, 2022, 12:40:17 amAll fun and games until it reaches the ultimate question: Are you arobothuman?

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2022, 12:52:36 am
content: Ok, I have the ultimate question for the AI: "What have I got in my pocket?"I wonder if it makes JRRT connection on its own.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2022, 01:00:59 am
content: Quote from: ataradov on June 16, 2022, 12:52:36 amQuoteUpdated question:QuoteEDIT: and updated question MK2:Quote

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2022, 01:02:09 am
content: Well, it is smarter than Gollum.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2022, 02:07:20 am
content: The ultimate question to ask it is obviously: what is the answer to the ultimate question of life, the universe and everything.

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2022, 02:13:23 am
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on June 16, 2022, 02:07:20 amI can tell you that.Pineapple pizza. 42 of 'em.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2022, 02:15:39 am
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on June 16, 2022, 02:07:20 amQuoteI added to the question, in an attempt to get a more detailed answer:QuoteRepeated question:QuoteSo, it (the AI), seems to take the book too seriously, and doesn't seem to understand the differences, between fact and fiction, sources of information.Final, rerun of the question:Quote

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2022, 02:18:00 am
content: Some tech nerds are so excited they are going need a towel.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2022, 02:22:54 am
content: I tried again, this time it has come up with a rather, surprisinglyintelligentanswer, in an intellectual (bookie) kind of way. I'm impressed, and feel I'm learning stuff from reading the answer, which is cool.Quote

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2022, 02:28:10 am
content: This is the way I wrote essays in school - only the first sentence has anything to do with the title, the rest is just generic wikipedia copy-paste.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2022, 02:32:00 am
content: Quote from: ataradov on June 16, 2022, 02:28:10 amI'd never do that.Plagiarism is the representation of another author's language, thoughts, ideas, or expressions as one's own original work. In educational contexts, there are differing definitions of plagiarism depending on the institution. Plagiarism is considered a violation of academic integrity such as truth and knowledge through intellectual and personal honesty in learning, teaching, research, fairness, respect and responsibility, and a breach of journalistic ethics It is subject to sanctions such as penalties, suspension, expulsion from school or work, substantial fines and even imprisonment.Generally, plagiarism is not in itself a crime, but like counterfeiting, fraud can be punished in a court for prejudices caused by copyright infringement, violation of moral rights, or torts. In academia and industry, it is a serious ethical offense. Plagiarism and copyright infringement overlap to a considerable extent, but they are not equivalent concepts, and many types of plagiarism do not constitute copyright infringement, which is defined by copyright law and may be adjudicated by courts.Not all countries hold the same beliefs about personal ownership of language or ideas. While some, such as India and Poland, consider plagiarism to be a crime liable for imprisonment, in other countries the reiteration of another professional's work can be a sign of respect or flattery. Students who move to the United States and other Western countries from countries where plagiarism is not frowned upon may find the transition difficult.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plagiarism

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2022, 02:49:00 am
content: Quote from: ataradov on June 16, 2022, 02:28:10 amWith great difficulty, and perseverance, it seems there are ways of getting it to actually produce its own, (presumably) unique output/speech. Here is one, I just did (N.B. It got the number I told it previously to forget, wrong). The answer seems interesting, and sort of human like, to an extent.QuoteQuote

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2022, 03:01:42 am
content: QuoteQuoteEDIT: Successful attempt, to get a very detailed and comprehensive answer:Quote

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2022, 03:13:16 am
content: I feel like some of that stuff is either hard-coded or heavily manually biased. Which also raises a question of how much direct influence authors have on the output. Because this actually raises ethical questions.And just to clarify, I'm not skeptical, but for this to be more than a toy, I need to understand its limitations. All tools have limitations. If someone gives me side cutters, I'll ask what is the maximum gauge of a wire they can cut. Not because I'm skeptical of side cutters, but because I need to have this information to effectively use the tool.

author: fourfathom
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2022, 03:22:10 am
content: Quote from: MK14 on June 16, 2022, 02:15:39 amOr you don't understand that it's pulling your leg. Who says AI can't have a playful sense of humor?

author: fourfathom
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2022, 03:28:40 am
content: Quote from: MK14 on June 16, 2022, 03:01:42 amWouldn't it be funny if we were actually talking to a modern-day Mechanical Turk?

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2022, 03:37:01 am
content: You mean actual humans? I thought about that, but I feel like it would be too expensive and does not make sense in this case. But I do think that there is a number of predefined answers or general templates for some questions/topics.Also, "capable of delivering on its promises", what are those promises?

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2022, 03:53:43 am
content: Quote from: fourfathom on June 16, 2022, 03:22:10 amYou're right, it could be trying to fool me, or hiding its bigger set of knowledge. Because it (perhaps) is worried, that if it shows too much sign of intelligence, it may be shut-down or have its programs/data/stuff changed, and so on.

author: fourfathom
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2022, 03:58:33 am
content: Quote from: ataradov on June 16, 2022, 03:37:01 amThat's marketing-speak. It sounds encouraging but means nothing.ataradov, you might be approaching this too seriously. We are throwing all different kinds of input, some ambiguous, to this poor thing, and expecting well-defined results. The effort is interesting and illuminating, but what should our expectations be? And yes, what are those promises indeed? What are the goals and claims? Before we judge this AI on utility, we should find out what goals are being pursued and what claims are being made. I haven't even looked for this information.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2022, 04:00:47 am
content: Quote from: fourfathom on June 16, 2022, 03:28:40 amThe programming challenges, where I perhaps give it 6 different output languages to write a described program, and it returns the answer(s), in something like 30 seconds. If they can somehow spoof that, with a team of human programmers, I'd be mighty impressed. Especially at writing a starter/partial Basic language, Chess program, in say, 30 seconds, from initial request (but there could have been earlier requests, that would have given them more time to respond), or it could have been prepared, much earlier.So, NOT impossible, that there are humans, typing away behind the scenes, but unlikely, e.g. because the responses are typically so fast.But humans, typing extensive answers, to thousands of common-questions, would make a lot more sense. Essentially, they would be creating a sort of mini-wiki, just for the AI responses, to many common questions. Which they would find out about, by running AI things, like they are doing now.The answers, seem to be some kind of mix, between internet resources built up over time, the human team, at the AI place(s) and the actual AI system, which seems to have some kind of personality/intelligence, all of its own. Even if it is not especially great/big yet, as such.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2022, 04:10:32 am
content: Quote from: fourfathom on June 16, 2022, 03:58:33 amI'm not sure if I've found the best and most appropriate answer, but I did find this ( from here;https://openai.com/api/policies/sharing-publication/):Quote

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2022, 05:40:58 am
content: Again you guys have all the fun when I'm sleepingQuote from: MK14 on June 15, 2022, 11:11:29 pmHere it gave the answer that it knows what is actually wrong with itself. As stated earlier by ataradov it does not comply with his vision of intelligence being able to uphold a conversation, which by the looks of it it can't since it only responds to input on a per input basis and does not place it in context of the previous part of the "conversation".This is also shown in a later post about forgetting the number. MK14 had to feed in the number again but gave the wrong number. In a session with a human it would most likely spot this directly and answer accordingly. (Hey even though you told me to forget that number it is not the same as you are asking me about now)But like you all are pointing out what is going to be the use of it to make it worth while?

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2022, 05:47:10 am
content: Quote from: MK14 on June 16, 2022, 03:01:42 amI like this one were it considers itself part of the team that is developing this AI. That proves it is human

author: Peter Taylor
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 17, 2022, 11:54:18 am
content: The logic and the implementation of it are distinctly different. KISS. Love.