Is BitScope still with us? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: AaronD
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2022, 04:13:06 am
content: They could just be swamped over the holidays, plus the shipping situation to the U.S., so I don't want to accuse them too harshly yet. But I'm still curious.I ordereda BS10anda SP01a couple of weeks before Christmas, and the only feedback I have so far is an invoice. That's fine as far as it goes, but nothing has arrived yet, and no response to an e-mail sent tosales@bitscope.com. Is everything okay over there?

author: oPossum
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2022, 04:26:44 am
content: They should have died many years ago. The Bitscope is a horrible DSO. I never use mine.If you want something USB connected get an Analog Discovery, PicoScope, or CleverScope.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2022, 04:29:42 am
content: $245 for BS10U when Analog Discovery exists? Lol.

author: AaronD
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2022, 05:13:17 am
content: Well, okay. Of the three alternatives mentioned so far, only the Analog Discovery 2 seems anywhere near comparable in terms of advertised functionality per cost. Though it's still almost twice the price with BNC connectors for both.Also, I was planning to use it with a Raspberry Pi 3B+.According to this, I'd need to upgrade to a Pi 4 to get around some driver issues. That's doable, but I already had the 3B+ lying around...

author: johnboxall
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 06, 2022, 05:17:20 am
content: Quote from: AaronD on January 06, 2022, 04:13:06 amCall +61 2 9436 2955

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2022, 05:30:05 am
content: Quote from: AaronD on January 06, 2022, 05:13:17 amUse this: "Receive $200 off of an Analog Discovery 2 just by buying one of our FPGA or SoC boards costing over $100!". The board is $400, you buy $100 FPGA board, your board becomes $200 + you have FPGA board, which you can sell if you want.BNC board is +$20 or something like that.If you manage to dump the FPGA board, it will be cheaper than bitscope.Although I'm not sure about RPi, the application is not particularity lightweight. Good thing you can download it for free and evaluate. It is even a bit useful as a free tool as it supports audio card as a source for the scope.

author: AaronD
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2022, 08:23:30 pm
content: Quote from: ataradov on January 06, 2022, 05:30:05 amIs that supposed to be a link? Automatic on checkout? I didn't see any mention of it in my (admittedly quick) poke around.This would normally be off-topic by itself, but there is a relevant question that relies on this background. I do have some projects in mind that might use one of those other boards, but I don't know enough yet to pick one:Processing at least 1080p30 video (preferably higher, but I'm unsure of what to call "enough" yet) with absolute minimal latency. Thinking maybe 2 pixels' worth of delay maximum, since there's nothing involving the neighbors. (grayscale, color-invert, attenuation, chroma/luma-keying, that sort of thing) Plus some additional signals to control which features to enable at the moment and by how much. The keyer input should be a USB "display", as a PC would see it, and there should also be a USB capture function for the PC to record the final result. The USB connections can afford to be buffered, but the critical path between the dedicated video I/O must be immediate.DSP audio, probably fixed at 48kHz with 24-bit converters all around or better, or direct-digital to a set of class-D chip amps or something like that. Total of 6 channels in and 6 channels out physically, plus 8x8 for recording/playback over USB, USB HID for control by a custom PC app, and some GPIO for physical controls and indicators. (potentiometers, encoders, buttons, and LED's) The functions here are a smattering of EQ's, gains, crossover filters, limiting, mixing, and the occasional A/B switch instead of a mixer just to keep the other input out of the way. Like the video processor, this also needs to have absolute minimal latency between the dedicated audio connections - thinking maybe 2 samples max. at 48kHz - but the USB side can afford a good buffer.Those should be separate devices, not combined, so that a problem with one doesn't take down the other.I know nothing about FPGA's at the moment, except for the basic theory and one freshman "intro to logic" lab class in college about 10 years ago (I went a slightly different direction), and my proficiency in the "sequential world" is only on 8-bit MCU's, so I'll need to start from almost-scratch and build up to all of this. And because of the tight latency requirements, I suspect that I'll have to write my own code instead of using a 64-sample library or something like that.The latency requirement isn'tcompletelynaive, although it could be a little bit. I'm thinking about completely replacing an actor's vision while in character, and avoiding an audio comb filter through an inch or two (a few cm) of foam, while replacing what doesn't get through the foam's acoustic lowpass. (mic outside, speaker inside, and vice versa for speaking, plus an off-the-shelf radio pack to connect it to a larger sound system) For most applications, including a "normal" USB sound card or live sound reinforcement, 64 samples of latency at 48kHz is probably fine: you'll get more of a difference by moving a mic or speaker, or the listening position, by just 2 feet (less than 1m).Do you happen to know of a good starter board for that goal (the bullet points, and where I'm starting from), that would work with this deal?It might not matter yet at this point, but the project itself will probably require all custom PCB's just to fit everything in - dev boards are too bulky for that - so I'd also need to have good documentation of what the chip itself actually needs, and be able to get the chip and its support parts on their own in single quantities...probably a couple of years from now.Quote from: ataradov on January 06, 2022, 05:30:05 amThe BNC board by itself is $20, and the "Pro" bundle includes it for $20 more than the base unit by itself, plus a set of probes, clips, and wires. So I'm probably looking at the "Pro" bundle.Quote from: ataradov on January 06, 2022, 05:30:05 amHmm...so it might require a 4 to even be usable at all. That's good to know.And the audio input would be nice too! I was thinking to use Audacity for that, but a for-real 'scope that uses that input would be MUCH better. It's not a replacement for an actual 'scope probe, but still handy for audio projects.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2022, 08:35:27 pm
content: Quote from: ataradov on January 06, 2022, 05:30:05 amDump an FPGA board? Heresy!QuoteDownload the Waveforms software and play around with it using the "Demo" device. You need to download the Adept library to get Waveforms to run on Linux. But it all works well on a Pi 4. That's pretty neat when you think about developing a project on the Pi and using the Pi as the debugger. Code in a terminal window, most recent incantation running on the Pi itself and Waveforms running in a window! Slick!I'm not happy about the new and improved price and at least Digilent is recognizing that they screwed up by coming up with this sale. I think they upped the price to cover the price of similar NI offerings now that NI owns Digilent.Still, the AD2 is one of my favorite tools.

author: nali
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2022, 09:09:27 pm
content: Quote from: oPossum on January 06, 2022, 04:26:44 amAgree with this. I bought their low end model, I think it was a Bitcope Micro, as it was cheap at sub-£100 and I could sneak in a purchase at the company I was working for at the time. All I really wanted was to look at RS485 signals for troubleshooting a system but I think I used it maybe twice before I decided sod it and brought in my own scope from home to get the job done.OK that was some years ago now but it's tainted my view of the company and product line. I'm suprised they're still going TBH.

author: AaronD
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2022, 09:24:44 pm
content: Quote from: nali on January 06, 2022, 09:09:27 pmDo you remember what the problem was?

author: nali
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2022, 09:33:56 pm
content: Quote from: AaronD on January 06, 2022, 09:24:44 pmNot explicitly as it was a few years back. Quirky to use, triggering was a bit random, I think there was some issue with offsets and finally the DSO software refused to display anything after a couple of days at which point I decided enough was enough. Also IIRC the probe clips were the cheapest, flimsiest bits of plastic I've ever encountered.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2022, 09:44:55 pm
content: Quote from: AaronD on January 06, 2022, 08:23:30 pm. No link, just an automatic discount on checkout.No idea on FPGA boards, but if you can find something from Digilent, you can benefit even more from this discount.

author: AaronD
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 07, 2022, 05:17:56 pm
content: Quote from: ataradov on January 06, 2022, 09:44:55 pmAlright. Thanks! I'm sure I could talk to a rep and get "something", but I've always seen direct sales as kinda sketchy.Maybe a different thread will get some more eyes on that question.

author: J-R
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 07, 2022, 05:38:33 pm
content: The promo is right on their front page:https://digilent.com/(https://cdn11.bigcommerce.com/s-1jlommw1c5/product_images/uploaded_images/buyanyfpga-getanad2-8b-2000.png)This might be a reasonable choice for $103:https://digilent.com/shop/cora-z7-zynq-7000-single-core-and-dual-core-options-for-arm-fpga-soc-development/(Cora Z7-07S with USB A to Micro-B Cable)

author: AaronD
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 07, 2022, 06:13:56 pm
content: Quote from: J-R on January 07, 2022, 05:38:33 pmThat might explain why I never saw it. I rarely see the homepage of any site, since Google likes to take me directly to the page where it found my search terms.Quote from: J-R on January 07, 2022, 05:38:33 pmI was wondering about that one myself - actually the dual-core version for $30 more, better for a prototyping platform to be slightly overkill, within reason of course - but I don't trust myself enough in this field yet to know the difference between a gold nugget and "the chocolate ice cream emoji".

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 07, 2022, 06:48:08 pm
content: The text I copied was from the AD2 page directly -https://digilent.com/shop/analog-discovery-2-100ms-s-usb-oscilloscope-logic-analyzer-and-variable-power-supply/. There is no picture banner, but the text is there.

author: J-R
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 07, 2022, 06:58:00 pm
content: Even if the FPGA/SoC is of little use to you, $300 for a new AD2 straight from the manufacturer seems like a reasonable price.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 07, 2022, 07:07:51 pm
content: Quote from: J-R on January 07, 2022, 06:58:00 pmYes, absolutely. I was wary of buying it as I don't like PC based tools, but I've got so much use of it just in the few weeks I had it that I would buy it again without hesitation.

author: AaronD
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 07, 2022, 07:33:30 pm
content: Quote from: ataradov on January 07, 2022, 06:48:08 pmOkay, I must be going blind now!Quote from: J-R on January 07, 2022, 06:58:00 pmYeah, I suppose you're right. And thinking along those lines, I also have an STM32F407 dev board that I'm not using anymore. I got fed up with ST's incompetent licensing and customer-support system for the supposedly-free AudioWeaver IDE if I used the chip that's on that board, so I've never used it since. I only paid about $20 + shipping from Mouser, so it's not all that much of a loss. If someone wants it in the original packaging (opened of course), maybe we can work out a deal.Quote from: rstofer on January 06, 2022, 08:35:27 pmI just finished playing with it on my Pi 3. Yeah, it really needs something better than that! It was painfully slow, crashed a few times, and I never got a live waveform to appear on the scope from my USB audio line in. It looked like I was doing everything right, compared to my analog 'scope, but it simply refused to trigger no matter how I configured it. (yes, I did find the instrument-start/stop buttons; they didn't help) The closest I got was to auto-scale, which would always hang with the progress bar about 20% or so, and then cancelling it would produce a one-shot capture of a noisy 60Hz sine on both channels. (60Hz power here in the US)Audacity "just works", with the same hardware.Anyway, if the Pi 4 does better than that, I guess I'm looking at one of those too, and I'll have the 3 sitting around again looking for something to do.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 07, 2022, 07:41:51 pm
content: Quote from: AaronD on January 07, 2022, 07:33:30 pmThen you will not like it in FPGA world either. It is much worse than MCUs.

author: AaronD
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 07, 2022, 07:51:00 pm
content: Quote from: ataradov on January 07, 2022, 07:41:51 pmDo the Digilent boards use ST chips? I thought they were Analog Devices, same people that make the SigmaDSP chips with an actually-free IDE to go with them.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 07, 2022, 08:49:45 pm
content: Quote from: AaronD on January 07, 2022, 07:51:00 pmDigilent makes boards based on Xilinx FPGAs. This has nothing to do with AD at all.IDEs may be free, but some IPs may be locked, and low volume support in FPGA world is almost non-existent.Also, on that Cora board there is no HDMI connector or audio functionality of any sort. How do you plan on getting video in and out? Digilent has some Zynq based boards that have HDMI connectors.

author: J-R
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 07, 2022, 10:58:55 pm
content: I picked the Cora board because it was $103 and had ethernet, which seemed interesting. I'm sure it makes sense to pick a board that has the highest likelihood of being used, though, even if it is a bit more than $100.