Altium vs DipTrace (high speed design) - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Korken
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 05, 2014, 06:26:33 pm
content: Hi all!I am a frequent and long time user of DipTrace and I enjoy this software very much, but the time has come when I needed to make a high speed design (FPGA + DDR2) and DipTrace is not quite ready here yet.Most of the problem comes from the fact that I cannot have a easy way of length matching traces, plus checking crosstalk constraints, and doing it all the manual way is killing my time.I should add that I do this in academia - hence an academic license is not too bad for Altium.However with this said, I have never used Altium and am not sure what resources there are to help me in these designs.I did find a few videos with directions/tutorials but I believe I must try it to get a good feel for the procedure.What are your recommendations? Is it worth the time changing to Altium? Or should I stay with DipTrace?This project is not a one of, I should point out. I will have to do a lot more high(er) speeds design soon.Thanks for your insight!

author: marshallh
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 05, 2014, 07:03:25 pm
content: Length matching in altium is easy. As of 14.3 all meanders are stored as an object, and you can delete them as a whole for each trace.Basically you just route the lines with room to spare, and then go back and add meander so they match the longest net.Eagle has a meander tool but it's a complete joke - it's dumb, will easily just stomp all over the rest of the pcb. Where the altium tool meanders within the free space on your PCB with realtime DRC.

author: sacherjj
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 05, 2014, 07:27:36 pm
content: There are still some issues with high speed design in Altium. The length matching on one layer works very well. It does not match well through vias and differing speed on outer vs inner layers. I've seen some using a spread sheet to match these. If you shoot through the same vias and match all layers, you are usually good. But for simulation and more advanced, you have to go up to Allegro, etc.Robert Feranec has some great videos on Altium for this capability, such as this:His PCB course with Altium was great for me to get up to speed. I don't remember how much it was, but it was a bargain.It takes some learning to get in Altium, but it completely blows DipTrace out of the water. And it should for the price difference.

author: koko79
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 06, 2014, 10:29:14 am
content: On a side note if you are a student Cadence have been running a programme where you can get the OrCAD PCB tools for free in the UK. That includes Capture, PCB Editor and PSpice software.So it could be worth contacting your local Cadence channel partner to see if they are running the promo too! its been in the UK for the last couple of years.

author: Korken
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 06, 2014, 02:05:08 pm
content: Thanks for all the feedback!It feels lite the way forward will be with Altium.I have tried Cadence (we have this here as well for free), but I never liked the tool sadly.Quote from: sacherjj on November 05, 2014, 07:27:36 pmI had a look athttp://www.fedevel.com/academy/and I must agree that the prices are really good!As you had this course could you comment on the plus and minuses? Anything to keep in mind while taking it?Thanks!

author: sacherjj
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 06, 2014, 02:34:52 pm
content: Quote from: Korken on November 06, 2014, 02:05:08 pmHe has them streaming, but you can use video downloaders in Firefox to download them locally. When I was doing that course, I was traveling at times. So downloading them made them viewable on flights.I was fairly familiar with PCB design, but not with Altium. I was in the first class he offered. I don't remember a bunch about it, but felt like I had my money's worth before half way through. His videos on YouTube are a good idea of the style. Some times a little plodding, but usually informative. The pace overall was pretty good.I remember a thread about it... Here it is:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/altium/altium-training/msg261417/#msg261417

author: sacherjj
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 06, 2014, 02:45:10 pm
content: I should note that this isn't for rank beginners. It is more of a high speed and advanced style. It sounds like you are there, but you might be lagging in the Altium UI knowledge. I think you would pick that up.I did not go through the switching power supply beginner's one, but I'm sure it would be good for those that are not as advanced on the PCB design side. It wasn't offered until after I completed the first main one.

author: Korken
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 07, 2014, 09:34:10 am
content: Thank you for this recommendation! I have gotten two videos in on the first one and it is very good for me to get into the UI.However he uses a very different tactic from what I am used to. Me makes separate schematic symbols for all the capacitors and resistors, why is that?It feels as if that would not be good for productivity and it inhibits the use of generic libraries?

author: DerekG
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 07, 2014, 10:39:31 am
content: Quote from: Korken on November 07, 2014, 09:34:10 amI have not watched the video but suspect it is because a different footprint was used for each capacitor (& each resistor). If you don't do this & later invoke the command to update all components from the library, you will end up with the generic (standard) footprint for that schematic part for all your capacitors (& resistors).The approach that Altium has taken for many years now is to provide you with an extensive set of "unified libraries". Altium expect you to specify a part from a particular manufacturer, search for that part in the extensive libraries using the full part number, select it & place it into your schematic. By using this method you are guaranteed to also have the correct footprint.You will notice in the latest version of DipTrace gives you a generic library containing (for instance) all the TOxxx through hole & SMD parts. You can select a different footprint "on the fly" when laying out your schematic & this is remembered all the way through to the pcb layout.I'm the same as you, preferring the DipTrace way of doing things, but Altium use their unified libraries as a selling point & a way to continually getting their customers to pay for another upgrade.ADDED:Target 3001 have a great idea of running all components in one large library. Runs well when it just contains the generic footprints plus a few special ones you have added yourself. No need to locate & add the required library to then have access to the one footprint you require.Altium can't do this as they have hundreds of thousands of parts, all with specific part numbers. If you opened all the unified libraries at once, your computer would slow to a crawl. So, Altium had have to resort to users installing (say) 15 or 20 libraries during the schematic design stage to have access to the schematic & footprint parts. Altium then let you save just the parts used into a separate library to minimise the RAM required by your computer & to provide you a small file to save alongside your schematic & pcb files.

author: Korken
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 07, 2014, 02:12:15 pm
content: That could very well be a good cause.As with small projects it is easy to have generic components so I took and emailed him about this and this was his reply:QuoteAnd this I can very much relate to.My last project was 200~ components and even then it was difficult and time consuming to get the BOM right.Using his way of doing it the BOM is merely a one-click process.I am a bit divided which way to go as my libraries will look horrible with all resistors and capacitors.For ICs it is good, but else... hmm... I will have to come up with a good way of doing this without cluttering the libraries.

author: sacherjj
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 07, 2014, 03:01:54 pm
content: I have a different schematic for every single different resistor or capacitor I use. There may be nothing different than the value. What it does is allow me to place a 510K resistor. Not remember to change them. Then when I update the footprint and push changes back to schematic and pcb, I don't have to remember to change the values back.The biggest reason is AUTOMATIC BOM GENERATION. One of my exports is the BOM. Using Altium Supplier search, I make a part that has all the manuf. information. BOM goes into an Excel template and is done automatically.Yes, it is a little extra work. But when you are dealing with 228 passives in a design, you do everything you can to not screw them up.

author: Korken
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 07, 2014, 10:30:18 pm
content: That is true!I will give this way of doing it a try and see how it feels!Time saved in BOM generation can be quite a significant part.Thanks for all the replies!

author: _Cale_
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: January 23, 2015, 10:42:41 pm
content: Can't you specify a minimum and a maximum length of a trace in the Net Classes in the PCB Layout Editor? I've never had to use this feature, but it is there. I think that you have to manually calculate your capacitance from your trace width, but that can be done via a PCB trace calculator. I've been using DipTrace for 3 years and love it to death. After using Altium for a month, I really am not interested in using their software. Its not as good as DipTrace. Yeah you can do some shortcuts, but the UI sucks so bad, that any time you'd save gets eaten up dealing with their poor design choices. Pretty much everything in Altium is hidden in a menu, where DipTrace keeps it all in a convenient place. The only reason why you would pick Altium is if it saved you time... I'm not sure exactly how long manual length matching takes per project, but I'd rather do that than deal with the piss poor UI Altium has. Their old CEO really did the company a disservice by forcing the unified editor crap down our throats. Their FPGA software sucks. There are poor design choices like that everywhere in Altium. I'll repost after I do a DDR3 route around March 2015.

author: DerekG
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 24, 2015, 12:51:00 am
content: Quote from: _Cale_ on January 23, 2015, 10:42:41 pmI use both Altium & DipTrace too.DipTrace does not have all the advanced features that Altium offers, however in many respects Diptrace is more productive. Their latest release 2.4.0.1 was a big stepup, particularly with the way the component libraries are handled.For very complicated boards, I sometimes complete the the schematic & basic layout in DipTrace, then export the board via the PCAD filter, then import it (via the PCAD filter) into Altium for completion.If you have not signed up to the DipTrace Forum, do so. There is a thread asking for more shortcuts to be offered in the next release. The more users who "complain" the more likely it will be implemented.Remember that your time is worth money. You make two investments when you buy software. The first investment is a monetary one, the second is your time.I would suggest, that for many people, their time is worth more than their monetary investment. If you have purchased some software that does what you need, learn it well & stick with it.