Isn't it strange that you can make better PCBs at home than factories make? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: MaximRecoil
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2016, 02:13:01 am
content: With regard to two-layer boards at least. Normally it's the other way around.Traces: Because factories use archaic Gerber files, your traces are limited to lines and arcs. If making a PCB at home, there are no shape limitations whatsoever. You could draw them in e.g., Adobe Illustrator, which supports bezier curves, so anything can be drawn. You could also draw them by hand, which, of course, has no shape limitations either.Pads and vias: A through-plated pad/via is relatively delicate. It won't hold up to much heat/rework, and the plating in vias can crack over time resulting in an open circuit. At home you can use copper or brass rivets for this, which are made of sheet metal, which is infinitely tougher than mere plating:https://youtu.be/ywfjknf6VtgYou could rework a riveted through-hole until the cows come home and it wouldn't harm it in the least. It won't ever crack either. Additionally, it provides a mechanical fastener for the traces at each point that one is installed, which beats the mere chemical adhesive that is the only thing holding the copper to the fiberglass in a factory-made PCB.Silkscreen: No limitations here; you can print anything at home up to and including full-color photographic images if you wanted to, because, again, you don't have the Gerber file limitation.

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2016, 02:41:48 am
content: I would trust rivets less than plating -- the FR-4 creeps over time, and the unusually meaty rivet will fatigue away from the board (delamination) or trace (cold solder joint).Also, "infinite" is a lot, even for hyperbole. A rivet will be a bit stronger than plating because of work hardening, and plated copper might not be very ductile (though it depends on the type of plating). The material strength of plated copper will be about half; the material cross section determines the rest. (I suppose a rivet with a 10 mil wall would be about 20 times stronger than typical PCB plating?)I'd be quite interested to see suggested soldermask and silkscreen methods. How would you do full color? How do you maintain layer registration? Where do you get the epoxy ink from? (Toner doesn't stand up to soldering heat!)Tim

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2016, 02:41:53 am
content: All of that makes no sense. Gerbers can be as detailed as you like or as equipment resolution will allow. The rest of the statements are unsubstantiated also. Show us how would you do high resolution silk screen at home, for example.

author: Mr.B
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 22, 2016, 02:51:30 am
content: Quote from: ataradov on December 22, 2016, 02:41:53 amThat.

author: MaximRecoil
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2016, 04:40:41 am
content: Quote from: T3sl4co1l on December 22, 2016, 02:41:48 amA copper rivet is going nowhere, provided it is set properly. It is the same idea as a crimped connection, like every single connection in the wiring harnesses of your car.QuoteIt will be alotstronger, because it's far thicker. It is made from sheet metal, while the thickness of plating is measured in the millionths of an inch. You could build a structure using those rivets as fasteners, such as a sheet metal cabinet or attaching body panels to a car. You can't hold a substantial structure together with plating; not even close.QuoteThose things are second nature to a silkscreen printer (which I am). Nazdar makes any type of screen printing ink you want, including epoxy. The entire process of making a PCB (aside from riveting) eitherisscreen printing or is very analogous to it (i.e., photosensitive stencil-making emulsion type process). Full color photographic images can be screen printed; just look at a typical audio CD with album cover art printed on it. That is usually done with screen printing. The same goes for plenty of T-shirts. It is a CMYK halftone process, the same process that digital printers (e.g., inkjet, laser) use (simulated process can also be used).Quote from: ataradov on December 22, 2016, 02:41:53 amNo. As I said, Gerber files don't support bezier curves, which means you're limited to lines and arcs. Try to draw the Coca-Cola script logo in a Gerber file, for example.QuoteSee above. By the way, screen printing is fundamentally analog, i.e., there is no "resolution", or you might say that the "resolution" is infinite. If using a digital printer instead of a film-based "stat camera" to make the film positives, then the resolution is established by the digital print, but with a good printer, that's high enough to appear analog to the naked eye.

author: BradC
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2016, 05:03:26 am
content: Quote from: MaximRecoil on December 22, 2016, 04:40:41 amTry again. He asked "Show us how you would do...". You said "Those things are second nature to a silkscreen printer (which I am).". Good on ya. Those things are basic to anyone with a grasp of physics and a bit of manual arts, but there is a massive chasm between knowing how it is done and actually doing it. I know how to, and have done screen printing. I aso know I would make a complete hash of a multi-colour screen print with the level of detail required on a PCB. Apparently you can do it, so *show* us how you do it. I assume given your confidence you actually *have* done it and therefore know all the little pitfalls that the rest of us would trip over.While you are there, give us some shots of your bezier curve artwork, rivetted boards and let us know how they've held up over the yearsCrimped connections rely on a correct "cold-weld" to attach the wire. How do you intend to achieve that with the plated copper without damaging the board? There's a reason crimped connectors are not soldered. Will it work, sure. Will it work long term? Probably not. Look at the DIY kits for rivetting plate through holes. There's a couple of very good reasons why they don't have flanges on them, and they are generally used for "prototypes".

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2016, 05:06:55 am
content: Quote from: MaximRecoil on December 22, 2016, 04:40:41 amYou can have rasterized pictures. The actual equipment does not support bezier curves either and rasterizes artwork anyway.Quote from: MaximRecoil on December 22, 2016, 04:40:41 amI don't see a picture anywhere.Quote from: MaximRecoil on December 22, 2016, 04:40:41 amSo does it appear analog or analog? You have not shown a single example. I'd call this trolling and will stop waste my time until you show a picture of a board made at home that it better looking than a professional board. Don't forget to put some micro-vias there.

author: Mr.B
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 22, 2016, 05:10:38 am
content: Quote from: MaximRecoil on December 22, 2016, 02:13:01 amThis is what got me.As @ataradov says... "Show us how".If you are a screen printing expert, show us how to do thisat home.I would love to be able to do this on a PCB...

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2016, 05:21:26 am
content: BTW, most (all?) board houses will take vector files, they don't really care, since they import all this stuff into CAM software anyway.I know at least one case when a board was made based on an Adobe Illustrator drawing (it was a front panel, so no actual functional PCB was required).They will charge you more for this, since if you are asking, you either have no idea what you are doing, or know exactly what you are doing, and prepared to pay extra.

author: sleemanj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2016, 05:41:51 am
content: Making PCBs at home is great, a useful skill, and one that I regularly use for quick one-offs or prototypes.However, trying to make PCBs at a "factory quality" is a foolish waste of time, even without factoring in the economics.double sided is a pain for all sorts of reasonsrivets take work to install, are expensive (even if you buy them from me, or maybe especially if you buy them from me ;-)), and can loosen if you don't solder then top and bottomsoldermask is a pain unless you have dry film soldermask, which is not readily available out of china, and expensive - liquid soldermask is just a complete pain in the ass to work with in a diy setting for anything more than the tiniest of PCBs, even Vitrea 160 and toner masking is a more trouble to get right than it's worth (especially if you don't have an airbrush/spray gun)silkscreen is virtually impossible unless you use toner transfer to do it, in which case it's black, or you can use that white toner reactive foil from Pulsar (I have never found a Chinese supplier of toner reactive foil), either way, it's a pain in the ass, and who in their right mind would go to the trouble of making an actual silkscreen for a PCB they are making at homeany pcb shape other than rectangular with round holes would be a massive pain to create unless you have a CNC routerThat said, it's easy to get sucked into the challenge of making a real good looking PCB at home, but you'll spend a lot of time trying to perfect it, when for $10-20 USD you can get 10 of them shipped to you from China in a couple of weeks.

author: Mr.B
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 22, 2016, 05:57:00 am
content: ^ AbsolutelyAnd even if I could get a photo realistic silk screen process perfected at home, I would still have my 2 layer PCBs made in China and shipped to me with no silk screen...//troll me thinksignoreThread = true;

author: MaximRecoil
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2016, 06:09:12 am
content: Quote from: BradC on December 22, 2016, 05:03:26 amNo thanks. My reply is fine, as-is.QuoteWhat pitfalls? Anyone who can do full-color process screen printing can do this. With regard to your text that I placed in bold, if that's true, the rest of your paragraph makes no sense, unless you don't know how to do halftones. To make the film positives for halftones, you need either a PostScript printer or some type of RIP software that can generate them in the printout. You also need to know how to do color separation in e.g., Photoshop.QuoteNo, they don't. A proper cold weld is ideal, because it is air-tight, thus preventing corrosion of the wire within the crimp, and a specific degree of crimp ensures the connector won't detach from the wires when under strain, but it isn't necessary to attach the wire nor to achieve an electrical connection.QuoteYou don't need to. A rivet isn't going anywhere because it's mechanically locked into a hole, so it doesn't need to be so tight as to cold-weld to the trace. The earth ground wire in a Metcal power supply is riveted to the housing by the way, and in my ~30-year-old one it hasn't gone anywhere, nor do I expect it ever will. Screw terminals work on the same principle, but unlike screws, rivets don't loosen, unless you stress them enough to physically deform them. That won't happen with a PCB.QuoteYes, because solder sucks for wire connections in an environment such as a car, which is subject to movement/vibrations and extremes of hot and cold temperatures. Solder is relatively brittle.QuoteIt would work forever if the rivets are properly set. Have you ever worked with rivets before? You seem to think they are a lot weaker than they actually are.QuoteI don't know what you're talking about. All rivets have flanges or are otherwise mushroomed/expanded on both ends once they are set; they wouldn't stay in the hole if they didn't, nor would they be called "rivets".Quote from: ataradov on December 22, 2016, 05:06:55 amWhat "actual equipment" are you talking about? And which PCB manufacturers accept raster images (or vector formats such as SVG, EPS, AI, PDF, etc.) for the silkscreen layer and the copper layers (for the traces and pads)?QuoteThis is anon sequitur.QuoteI mentioned two different things there, so your question is anothernon sequitur. As I said, screen printing is fundamentally analog. It has been around for about a thousand years. But if you use a digital printout to burn the screen, you've obviously introduced a digital resolution to the process. Some digital images are high enough resolution to appear analog to the naked eye, and some are not.QuoteI don't need to show an example for facts which are independently verifiable. I don't currently have any plans to make my own PCB at all, for any purpose; this thread is about the irony of being able to make better PCBs (within certain limitations, such as 2-layer) at home than factories normally make. As I said, it is usually the other way around, because factories tend to have huge resources, knowledge pools, labor force, and equipment that is too large and/or expensive for the average Joe to own, and that tends to result in a product that is hard to match at home, let alone exceed.

author: MaximRecoil
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2016, 06:24:27 am
content: Quote from: sleemanj on December 22, 2016, 05:41:51 amOf course it would be a pain, which is why I wouldn't do it. I wouldn't want to set hundreds of rivets for one PCB, nor would I want to make the screens/stencils for the printing and solder mask, nor would I want the clean up job (cleaning up after printing with epoxy ink is a lot more of a hassle than the plastisol ink I normally print with).QuoteWhat sort of stress is a PCB subject to that will cause a copper or brass rivet to physically deform enough to loose contact with the trace? Similar rivets are often used for applications that actually have significant stresses involved, such as attaching body panels to cars. In such cases they are supporting a significant amount of weight, and have to handle all of the flexing that a car body does under normal driving conditions.

author: MaximRecoil
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2016, 06:30:12 am
content: Quote from: Mr.B on December 22, 2016, 05:57:00 amThen learn how to screen print and acquire the equipment/supplies you need. There are tons of resources pertaining to that online. I wrote a tutorial a couple of years ago on how to use Ghostscript (free) as a RIP to generate halftone printouts from Adobe Illustrator to a non-PostScript printer, which is a primary key to being able to do full-color process screen printing, so you can start there if you want to -http://www.t-shirtforums.com/p2630370-post1.htmlQuoteYou don't get to redefine the word "troll". Ironically, the most common example of "trolling" on the internet is falsely accusing someone of being a "troll".

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2016, 07:03:22 am
content: Quote from: MaximRecoil on December 22, 2016, 06:09:12 amNo, it won't, because the PCB itself will deform first and make it loose, promptly followed by the solder cracking.I have repaired many more failed rivets than plated holes. Proper plated through holes are mechanically excellent unless your name is Jeremy Clarkson. As an added bonus, you can plate through any shape cutout you can make in the PCB trivially. Where do I get 0.7x1.5mm slot rivets again?

author: MaximRecoil
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2016, 07:21:20 am
content: Quote from: Monkeh on December 22, 2016, 07:03:22 amWhy would the PCB deform? I have many large PCBs from the 1980s (arcade boardsets), and none of them are deformed, not even the bootleg PCBs I keep around for parts boards.QuoteWhere are you finding all of those riveted PCBs to repair? Are there any PCB factories that produce or produced them?QuoteI don't get the Jeremy Clarkson reference, but I know you can damage a through-plated pad with nothing more than a soldering iron. You could hold a soldering iron to a copper or brass rivet all day long and it wouldn't damage it in the least. Additionally, because plating is very thin/weak, it can crack over time due to it thermally expanding at a different rate than the fiberglass.QuoteYes, as I said, "within certain limitations". Many, if not most, PCBs, don't have, or at least, don't require, anything other than round vias/through-holes.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2016, 07:31:22 am
content: We can learn a lot from what we think are processes of yesteryear.Riveted I/O's were common decades ago and withstood much rework but of late they've been dropped in favour of cheaper processes. Are these better, IMO no.Rather than dismiss such reborn procedures I'm all ears as to how they've been improved for todays use.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2016, 07:59:11 am
content: Quote from: MaximRecoil on December 22, 2016, 07:21:20 amBecause you just crushed a piece of metal around it and then subjected it to intense thermal cycling.QuoteOld equipment. Once upon a time, through-plating was an expensive procedure.QuoteWith nothing more than excessive heat applied for a ridiculously long period of time, yes.. And I can destroy any PCB with nothing more than a screwdriver used incorrectly, I don't see the difference here.QuoteCrap or faulty plating, yes, quality work, not so much. Decent modern PCBs are very durable, plus you get a component lead in the larger ones as support. Smaller ones can be plugged with solder, epoxy, or even fully plated.You can do a lot with home manufacturing, and rivets aren't bad, but.. they're huge. I do home etching for prototyping - but I can't do 4-layer boards, .25mm vias, plated holes (yes, you do need them - again, can't do small holes and via-in-pad with rivets), getting mask between 0.4mm pitch QFNs just isn't happening with home gear no matter how experienced you are with the silkscreen process.. All of these are easily available almost as cheap (if not cheaper) than a home-made process, in quantity, with 100% testing. I'm finding it hard to call my laser printer and an iron 'better' based on the ability to do fancy graphics which don't impact function.I, too, would love to see a guide on doing multi-colour silkscreening affordably at home, as it could be applied to a professionally manufactured PCB after the fact just as easily as a home etch..

author: MaximRecoil
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2016, 08:36:55 am
content: Quote from: Monkeh on December 22, 2016, 07:59:11 amThat's a one-time thing and very localized. Your assertion was with regard to PCB deformation that would cause a solder joint to crack, which would have to happen sometime later down the road. By the way, old solder joints often crack, and it has nothing to do with PCB deformation; a PCB isn't even always involved.QuoteNice to know that factories used rivets once upon a time. In my experience, old equipment tends to be rather reliable. By the way, what exactly did you repair with these rivets? If it was cracked solder joints, that's not the rivet's fault. I've repaired lots of cracked solder joints; they are especially common on old CRT TV/monitor chassis, and none of them had riveted PCBs. I've never even seen a factory-riveted PCB before.QuoteYou don't need to apply heat for a "ridiculously long time" to damage a through-plated pad. Also, a soldering iron is something normally used on pads, either for the initial installation of a component or rework. Vandalizing pads with a screwdriver isn't normally done. I've come into possession of a lot of old PCBs that had damaged pads from previous owners' handiwork with a soldering iron. Had they been riveted through holes, they wouldn't have been damaged. I've yet to acquire one that someone mutilated with a screwdriver.QuoteThat's true, but it would never be an issue with copper or brass rivets.QuoteIt is a lot of work. For full-color process printing you need to make 4 screens, or more than 4 for some variants of simulated process, which tends to give better results than standard CMYK (4-color) process. As for affordable, it's affordable for me, because I'm already a screen printer, so it is just a matter of the cost of screen printing ink (and it takes very little of that for each print), waterproof inkjet film for making the film positives, and however much emulsion I'd use to make the screens. If you're not already set up for screen printing, there would be a pretty big startup cost.The basic procedure for CMYK process printing is like this:1. Separate your high-resolution artwork into CMYK. This can be done in Photoshop using channels, or there are specialty applications for it as well, such as "UltraSeps".2. Print your 4 film positives as halftones using a PostScript printer, or any printer combined with specialty RIP software. You can use  Ghostscript like in my tutorial that I linked to, or there are  dedicated software packages for it, such as Accurip (about $500).3. Use your 4 film positives to burn 4 screens which you have already coated with emulsion and allowed to dry for at least 4 hours or so. You'll want relatively high mesh count screens, such 220.4. Once you have your screens burned, washed out, and dried, you need to register them. Some people register to the film and others register to a test print. It's a matter of positioning each screen properly so that they all line up with each other and with where you want to print on the substrate, and locking them all down so that you can move/rotate them out and when you move/rotate them back in, they are still registered.5. Print. Some people flash cure between each of the 4 screens and others print wet on wet. It depends on the effect you're going for and the type of ink you're using.ETA:I'll add that a lot can be done with just one-color screen printing (a lot less work than 4-color process, no color separation or registration required, and the startup cost is far less, because you technically can use a pair ofhinge clampsinstead of an expensive multi-color screen printing press), from simple spot-color art such as the famousChe Guevara T-shirtto black & white photographic images, like you see every day in the newspaper (which are also printed with a one-color halftone process).

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2016, 09:28:42 am
content: Quote from: MaximRecoil on December 22, 2016, 04:40:41 amYou aren't evenreading the words I'm writing.I saidthe FR-4creeps over time.Does that not make sense to you?Which therefore proves this entire thread is futile, and honestly, puts a lot of proof towards the "troll" suggestion.QuoteYou really are stupid, aren't you?I normally try to avoid calling out peoples' ignorance, let alone stupidity, because I normally want to help, as frank as I am.But this can only be willful stubbornness; trolling.Electroforming (another term for electroplating) produces perfectly sound material, especially if some postprocessing is allowed. Macroscopic thicknesses are standard practice.They wouldn't be looking at itfor rocket nozzlesif it weren't legitimate.https://books.google.com/books?id=BfR0LexeuREC&pg=PA564&lpg=PA564&dq=electroformed+rocket+nozzle&source=bl&ots=PdgrC57_wU&sig=T7E633GCz3Nz1Z4Wrm7snlXfDOE&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi-_eWBtofRAhUlwYMKHc6zBIwQ6AEILzAH#v=onepage&q=electroformed%20rocket%20nozzle&f=falseThe "foil" that a board starts with, is perfectly sound foil in the first place. A thousand microinches of copper is a far sight stronger than your average roll of kitchen aluminum foil.Anything can be measured in microinches, but that doesn't mean it's useful to do so. Twenty thousand microinches is a lot of foil.I'd like to see you go at this with a pair of pliers, trying to peel it apart!https://www.eevblog.com/forum/eda/20-ounce-pcb!/Tim

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 22, 2016, 09:37:37 am
content: Quote from: sleemanj on December 22, 2016, 05:41:51 amThis.

author: MaximRecoil
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2016, 09:46:48 am
content: Quote from: T3sl4co1l on December 22, 2016, 09:28:42 amI read what you wrote perfectly well.QuoteAnd I said the copper rivet is going nowhere (which is relative to its original installed position in the board), which means the amount of "creep" is insignificant.QuoteFalse. "Troll" doesn't mean "someone who disagrees with me".QuoteComical irony, from someone who established himself as an idiot by asserting that the fiberglass will "creep" out from under a copper or brass rivet which is mechanically locked into a hole.QuoteComical Irony Alert: Part II. And given that you didn't actually present an argument here, your tacit concession on the matter is noted.QuoteUtterly irrelevant in this context. The plating in the hole of a via or pad of a typical PCB is incredibly thin and weak; it provides very little structural support; essentially zero in comparison to a sheet metal rivet. That is why it is so easy to lift a pad, even if you're not actually trying to do so. To rip the flange off a rivet requires considerable effort, and you'd need a pair of pliers to do so.QuoteGiven that that's far from a normal/typical PCB, it's a non sequitur.

author: rollatorwieltje
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 22, 2016, 10:18:20 am
content: Just because the file format doesn't support the formal definition of a bezier curve doesn't mean you can't use it. Just approximate it with a shitload of straight lines, nobody cares. It's an editor feature. Your PCB will be rasterized anyway. I've seen several PCB tools that can do flowing lines, i.e.TopoR.Besides, what is a "better" pcb? Try doing 6 thou traces at home, or solder mask for stuff like SSOP packages. I would need a substantial investment in tools for that, meanwhile services like Seeed and OSHPark can deliver perfect boards for almost nothing.

author: MaximRecoil
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2016, 11:03:56 am
content: Quote from: rollatorwieltje on December 22, 2016, 10:18:20 amIt would take forever to approximate a bezier curve with straight lines. Even if each line were only one pixel long (~0.0139" at the standard monitor PPI of 72), it would end up looking "polygonish". For it to look smooth, you'd have to draw at least 300 straight lines for each ~inch of the bezier curve.QuoteIf you could just send them a raster image to begin with (or a standard graphic design-type vector file which can instantly be rasterized), that would work fine. Someone above said you can do that, though I've never heard of a PCB manufacturer that accepts raster or .AI, .SVG, etc., files.QuoteDoes that program allow you to draw flowing lines manually with a bezier tool?QuoteCopper or brass rivets are more durable than a typical through-plated hole. Unlimited drawing is better than crude drawing, and that applies to both the copper layer and the silkscreen.QuoteIllustrator and other vector graphics programs have no problem drawing ultra fine lines. But to effectively transfer them into the real world, you need a good printer/imagesetter and a good vacuum-based UV exposure unit.

author: ruffy91
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2016, 11:13:14 am
content: Quote from: MaximRecoil on December 22, 2016, 11:03:56 amWhen you're at this point your home IS a factory.Also you would need a really good printer or a CtP printer.

author: MaximRecoil
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2016, 11:26:32 am
content: Quote from: ruffy91 on December 22, 2016, 11:13:14 amThat's one way of looking at it, but that sort of equipment would only be required for PCBs with very fine traces. More typical PCBs can be done with a run-of-the-mill printer and a 500-watt halogen worklight from your local hardware store.QuoteI already mentioned that.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2016, 11:33:31 am
content: Quote from: MaximRecoil on December 22, 2016, 02:13:01 amAFAIK mechanical vector photoplotters have been obsolete for many years, replaced by laser raster devices - your vector file will end up as a bitmap at the plotting process, and I'm sure if you talk to the factory they could take an image file.QuoteFatcories are designing for economical production, not for rework by people who don't know what they're doing.QuoteThey can do this at the factory if you want to pay for it, but it's rarely justifiable.QuoteAgain, it will be a bitmap at some point in the process, it's just a case of talking to the factory about their process

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2016, 11:40:49 am
content: Just my few pfennigs about rivets, is that pretty every CRT TV set made in the last 2 decades ( especially those from Samsung and LG, who were pretty much the biggest volume manufacturers, as they made almost all of the OEM branded ones as well) have had riveted LOPT connections, along with rivets on certain connectors, like those for the scan coils and some of the larger monitors used them in the power supply and on the flyback tuning capacitors as well. All places with high current flows, and with large items soldered to the board, and where you had notorious reliability problems from cracking joints arcing into failure of the line driver transistor ( and many of those transistors, along with the efficiency diode and the base shorting resistor as well) with a bang and in some cases a big burned area of board there.Those connections were a thing I almost always reflowed on any monitor I had open, for any reason, as they were often either dry jointed, or cracked, on those that were not riveted.The riveted ones still cracked, but those failures were a lot less common, only occurring on monitors I knew had been dropped, which physically cracked the board as well.

author: MaximRecoil
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2016, 11:53:05 am
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on December 22, 2016, 11:33:31 amDo you know of any that will for sure, and for small orders, and for no extra cost? If so, that would be awesome. In my experience of working in factories when I was younger, including a PCB factory, they are very rigid in the way they do things, even when there's no logical reason why they couldn't do something another way, and even when there's a demonstrably better way of doing things.QuoteThat doesn't help when it was someone else who damaged the board with their soldering iron. In my case, in the vintage arcade machine hobby, the boards you buy don't tend to be brand new. One board in particular that I wish had been made with riveted through-holes is a Nintendo/Sanyo EZV CRT monitor chassis, or even normal through-plated holes, for that matter. It is a bad combination of being a type of board that, by this point in time, is almost guaranteed to have been previously worked on (mainly to replace the electrolytic capacitors to fix its infamous "jailbars" issue), and having pads on only one side of the board. It is a recipe for disaster. The pads on old Atari arcade motherboards such as Missile Command are pretty damn delicate too, despite being through-plated.QuoteEven if they accepted a raster image, that doesn't necessarily get you a full-color print. With traditional screen printing it definitely wouldn't get you a full color print, not without a lot of extra cost, and they may not even know how to do it if they only normally do 1-color spot-color prints. I don't know what type of printing most of them do these days though, but it may be dedicated to 1-color prints, kind of like an Epson that runs modified ink cartridges that are all black (common among screen printers for printing film positives, which are inherently always printed in black).

author: Alex Eisenhut
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2016, 12:08:39 pm
content: Oh no, I've been limited to lines and arcs this whole time.

author: timb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2016, 12:26:02 pm
content: Quote from: Alex Eisenhut on December 22, 2016, 12:08:39 pmArcs are still converted to polylines when you export as a Gerber; it's just they're converted to so many small lines you can't really tell it's not an arc. Same for circular pads, etc.Anyway, as others have states the Gerber is converted to a high-DPI raster at the PCB fab anyway, so it's not really a big deal.I've never had the need for complex curves or anything. Also, my PCB software lets me import bitmap images (for copper, mask or silk) as well, if need be. I can also import DXF files, so if I want something that I can scale (like a logo), I'll just export it from Adobe Illustrator or AutoDesk Graphic and use pstoedit to convert from PostScript to DXF.A hand made, double sided board with rivets might be okay for a one-off design that is fairly small, but anything over a few dozen pads would just be a pain in the ass and I'd much rather get a set of real PCBs for $10. Even in the case of a small board, I'd still order it. I don't think I've ever seen the pads delaminate due to rework on a PCB from a quality manufacturer.

author: Alex Eisenhut
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2016, 12:32:16 pm
content: Oh no, I've never been able to put a photo on my PCBs.

author: MaximRecoil
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2016, 12:48:24 pm
content: Quote from: Mr.B on December 22, 2016, 05:10:38 amQuote from: Monkeh on December 22, 2016, 07:59:11 amQuote from: Alex Eisenhut on December 22, 2016, 12:32:16 pmWhy are you mocking Mr.B and Monkeh? Well, I'm not sure if such weak stabs at sarcasm count as mockery or not.

author: chris_leyson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2016, 01:00:57 pm
content: Back in the day Marconi used rivets on double sided boards, I think they were called "griplets" and over time some of them would fail. Had to solder a hell of a lot of them on TF2370 display driver boards to get the display to work.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2016, 08:07:47 pm
content: Quote from: chris_leyson on December 22, 2016, 01:00:57 pmIf I'm not mistaken old PCB's with rivets, well they were probably tinned brass as packaging was not what it is today.A uncoated copper rivet seems a much better option IMO.

author: chris_leyson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2016, 10:03:53 pm
content: Thanks tautech, I'm pretty sure the Marconi "griplets" would have been tinned brass and after a few years of thermal cycling perhaps one or two had fractured. Brass is not the best alloy in terms of strain.

author: G0HZU
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2016, 10:19:30 pm
content: A typical RF PCB for me at work could have between 8 and 16 layers, outer layers Rogers 4003C/4350, inner layers regular material and the design would use microvias and often sections of the PCB would be pocketed to just the top two layers of the top Rogers material to allow good thermal transfer and RF grounding to a heat spreader for RF power devices. So the board can be 3D in places in terms of the layer stack.Other boards may have flexi layers built in and a typical bare PCB may well cost £1000+ for a one off.http://www.exceptionpcbsolutions.com/http://www.graphic.plc.uk/Over the years, these guys have made most of the boards I design** and I would definitely think it strange if someone could make these better (at home) than Exception or Graphic here in the UK.** I do the RF design of the circuit etc and a PCB draughtsman does the actual PCB layout for me under my supervision.

author: bpiphany
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2016, 03:52:01 pm
content: Quote from: timb on December 22, 2016, 12:26:02 pmThat would actually be silly. Circular pads should be flashes of circular apertures. Arcs are supported perfectly fine by gerber. Other than that this whole thread is just obvious trolling

author: MaximRecoil
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2016, 06:51:25 pm
content: Quote from: bpiphany on December 23, 2016, 03:52:01 pmConsider your tacit request to redefine the word "trolling", denied.

author: janoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2016, 07:50:41 pm
content: Maxim, just out of curiosity - which process apart from hand-drawing the traces by a pen or using a plotter allows you to put a smooth, continuous Bezier curves on the PCBwithout rasterizationthat you are so complaining about (e.g. in Gerbers)?Even your cheap laser printer will take your wonderfully designed vector data from Illustrator or whatever and then rasterize this at 300-600 (or whatever) DPI.I am afraid you are just talking out of your arse and either don't have a clue whatsoever about how the process works or are simply trolling here. Or both.Either way, it is a complete waste of time debating this - using rivets for vias, my ass! That barely worked for through-hole boards, good luck on densely packed SMD layouts!

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2016, 07:57:33 pm
content: And this just was published in hackadayhttp://hackaday.com/2016/12/23/building-beautiful-boards-with-star-simpson/Looks pretty curvy to me. Plus multi-color silk screen.Also, the whole premise of this topic is that manufacturers can't do something. They could if there was demand. Absolute majority of orders will not order full-color PCB silk screen or solder mask if that increases the price of the board even by 10 cents.PCBs are functional things, it does not matter how many colors they have.Also, there is still a valid point that t-shirt equipment is nowhere close to resolutions required for PCBs.

author: timb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2016, 08:41:50 pm
content: Quote from: bpiphany on December 23, 2016, 03:52:01 pmYou're right, RS-274X (and Gerber X2) supports defining apertures, arcs and copper pours... However the original Gerber format (RS-274-D) doesn't support any of those things!Quote

author: bpiphany
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2016, 08:51:19 pm
content: Quote from: timb on December 23, 2016, 08:41:50 pmIf I understand correctly, apertures were specified separately. Without aperture definitions the draw commands would be meaningless. Line width would be zero.And anyway, if you find anyone using it - don't use them...Edit: Can't immediately find a reference to arcs not existing in the old format either.QuoteQuote from: MaximRecoil on December 23, 2016, 06:51:25 pmTrolling even himself. Never claimed you weren't skilled

author: MaximRecoil
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2016, 09:25:28 pm
content: Quote from: janoc on December 23, 2016, 07:50:41 pmOf course it gets rasterized, just as everything you see on your monitor has been rasterized, including what you see when you're drawing in a vector program. Can you see smooth, continuous bezier curves on your monitor? You can, because at a certain point of resolution (usually aided by anti-aliasing on a monitor; no antialiasing needed on a good printer because the DPI is much higher than the standard 72 PPI of a monitor), digital images appear analog to the naked eye.Also, I don't use a laser printer, nor do most screen printers. Most screen printers these days use an Epson inkjet printer, as do I. The DPI in the highest quality mode far exceeds 600, and it appears perfectly analog to the naked eye.This isn't about rasterization, it is about the Gerber format that most PCB manufacturers use, not supporting bezier curves, so you have no tool to draw them in the first place.QuoteThis is comically ironic, given your above confusion.QuoteYour risible attempt to redefine the term "trolling" is dismissed out of hand.QuoteI've already mentioned the "within certain limitations" caveat. I suggest reading the thread before replying.Quote from: ataradov on December 23, 2016, 07:57:33 pmNo, it isn't. It is that they generally don't or won't. There's no limitations on what a factory technicallycando, aside from technological limitations that apply to everyone.QuoteNot only is that not a valid point, but it doesn't even make sense. For one thing, there is no specific level of resolution required for "PCBs"; it depends on the specifics of the individual PCB you want to make, and for another thing, there is no specific resolution associated with "T-shirt equipment". The printers or imagesetters that many T-shirt screen printers are capable of printing very high-resolution film positives. The vacuum-based UV exposure units most of them use are perfectly capable of transferring high resolution images to a photosensitive emulsion with negligible loss. PCBs call for lines, in some cases, very fine lines, and those are easier to do than the tiny dots used in half-tone screen printing. The bridging properties of a good emulsion allow for very fine lines even in a relatively low mesh-count screen, while too small of a dot simply has nothing to adhere too, if it's smaller than the openings in the mesh.Quote from: bpiphany on December 23, 2016, 08:51:19 pmYournon sequituris dismissed. The only "trolling" in this thread is from people making false "trolling" accusations. Trolls don't type out actual arguments, nor do they take the time to type out a lengthy explanation of a process when someone asks about it, as I did in reply #18. The idea of this thread being "trolling" doesn't even make sense, because there's no logical reason why my OP should be controversial in the first place. If this were a forum where PCB factory representatives predominately posted, then the "trolling" idea would at least make some semblance of sense.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2016, 09:28:03 pm
content: Quote from: MaximRecoil on December 23, 2016, 09:25:28 pmNo one makes Gerber files by hand. Take your bezier curves and convert them to Gerber at whatever resolution you want. Why you don't get this?Gerber is just a universal interchange format for this sort of things.Also, you have not shown us any of your silk screens on rigid surfaces. We claim that you can't get resolution even close enough for making good PCBs at home and you seem to have nothing to prove us wrong. If you have printing equipment, then print some of those curves on copper clad board and show us the results.

author: MaximRecoil
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2016, 09:41:35 pm
content: Quote from: ataradov on December 23, 2016, 09:28:03 pmThat doesn't work. They get converted to polygons because a bezier curve is not an arc nor a straight line. Why don't you get this?QuoteWhich doesn't support bezier curves.QuoteI'm not going to coat a screen, burn it, dirty it up along with the squeegee and other utensils, then clean it all up, just because some random person online who clearly knows little-to-nothing about screen printing is incredulous. I already know what I can and can't do when it comes to screen printing. If you want to pay me for my time and supplies, I'll do it.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2016, 09:44:15 pm
content: Quote from: MaximRecoil on December 23, 2016, 09:41:35 pmSo what? Your printer does the same. Just convert at the same 600 DPI resolution and you get the same exact final result.BTW, Gerber does not support polygons either. Correction RS274X does support polygons, but that's really not relevant here.Quote from: MaximRecoil on December 23, 2016, 09:41:35 pmSo your claim that it can be done based on nothing?

author: bpiphany
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2016, 10:02:19 pm
content: Quote from: MaximRecoil on December 23, 2016, 09:25:28 pmYou are correct. I may be wrong. Perhaps you're just thick. You don't seem to have processed what others have said. You keep going on and on based on your initial assumptions. You've been proven wrong over and over on all your initial claims. Except perhaps the use of rivets under certain conditions. And I'm sure a clever factory manager would assign a low paid worker to stuff your boards with rivets if you paid him enough profit.Pure vectorization is not a physical thing in any case. It's just a matter of high resolution rasterization, as you said yourself. You can achieve rasterized features in gerbers to practically infinite resolution. It's just not a very well suited file format to do it in.

author: MaximRecoil
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2016, 10:11:43 pm
content: Quote from: ataradov on December 23, 2016, 09:44:15 pmThat doesn't work. They get converted to polygons because a bezier curve is not an arc nor a straight line.QuoteNo, the printer doesn't do the same. It simply rasterizes it, i.e., converts it to dots on a grid, with a DPI (dots per inch) of 5760 x 1440 for my particular printer. That results in curves which look perfectly smooth to the naked eye. On the other hand, bezier curves from a vector format which supports them, are converted to a series of straight lines, and there are not enough lines in a given space to be the equivalent of a high-DPI rasterization.QuoteWhat are you talking about? A polygon is just a series of straight lines at various angles, that are connected. Any Gerber file supports that. Open any PCB design program and you can draw a polygon (a stop sign shape for example).QuoteYour question is anon sequitur. In reality, it is based on what I know I can do with screen printing, and given that I've invented exactly nothing in the field of screen printing, it is all independently verifiable. That you lack the knowledge to properly evaluate my claims, and apparently aren't interested in seeking out said knowledge, is not my problem.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2016, 10:14:10 pm
content: Quote from: MaximRecoil on December 23, 2016, 10:11:43 pmOn stupid t-shirts. This knowledge is not directly applicable to PCBs. While general process is the same, details are very different.I have general knowledge about jet propulsion, and even launched a few amateur model rockets. This does not make me qualified to launch real rockets into space.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2016, 10:17:34 pm
content: Quote from: MaximRecoil on December 23, 2016, 10:11:43 pmThis is "optimized DPI" AKA marketing garbage from printer manufacturers. Actual resolution is much-much lower.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2016, 10:19:04 pm
content: Quote from: MaximRecoil on December 23, 2016, 10:11:43 pmThis is "optimized DPI" AKA marketing garbage from printer manufacturers. Actual resolution is much-much lower.

author: MaximRecoil
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2016, 10:25:19 pm
content: Quote from: bpiphany on December 23, 2016, 10:02:19 pmComical irony, coming from the person who establishes in this very post that he is thoroughly confused.QuoteMore irony.QuoteIn reality, I haven't been proven wrong in this thread about anything whatsoever. Consider your "example-less" assertion dismissed.QuoteOnce again, it isn't that factoriescan'tdo something, it is that they generally don't or won't. There's no limitations on what a factory technicallycando, aside from technological limitations that apply to everyone.QuoteThis is anon sequitur.Gerberisa vector format, but it doesn't support bezier curves, so you can't create them in the first place. And if you draw bezier curves in a vector format that does support bezier curves, if you successfully convert that file to Gerber, the bezier curves will all have been converted to a series of straight lines that follow the general paths of the bezier curves. The best that you could do is try to approximate them by drawing hundreds, or preferably, thousands, of straight lines per inch.Rasterization has nothing to do with anything here.

author: bpiphany
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2016, 10:33:38 pm
content: Rasterization has got everything to do with anything here, since your image is going to be rasterized at some point.It would be perhaps be neat if gerbers supported bezier curves. Would the added benefit outweigh the increased complexity? Other types of splines? Do you need them as well? I don't know that answer. I never needed to use bezier curves for a circuit board.As proven in the thread both complex curves and multicolor screen printing is being done on circuit boards as of today. How? We don't know until someone steps forward and tells us.Your initial claim that you can do better at home than most factories advertise is yet to be given any substance. It's also quite bold to claim without having asked any what they will or won't actually do.

author: G0HZU
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2016, 10:36:21 pm
content: QuoteCould you make a two layer PCB at home with the same tolerances as a company like Teledyne Labtech? I've used them numerous times over the years for 2 layer designs up to many GHz.http://www.teledynelabtech.com/pcb_material.aspxTry downloading their 'capabilities' pdf file and see if you think you can do better in terms of PCB thin/thickness capability, etching accuracy, registration and drill accuracy, metal backing capability.Click on capabilities pdf icon and then click on the 'download direct' text to avoid having to fill in any details on the web form. You then get to see the pdf straight away.Take as much time as you need

author: MaximRecoil
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2016, 10:41:13 pm
content: QuoteYour laughable attempt at a crystal ball reading is dismissed.Quote^^^ Ultracrepidarianism at its finest.QuoteThis is anon sequitur.Quote from: ataradov on December 23, 2016, 10:19:04 pmIt is known as interpolation. Even a typical 600 x 600 DPI printer has plenty of resolution for many, if not most, PCBs, given that it can print lines as thin as 1.67 mils.

author: bpiphany
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2016, 10:42:59 pm
content: Quote from: MaximRecoil on December 23, 2016, 10:25:19 pmActually it boils down to this. It's impossible to prove you wrong. More importantly though, you haven't proven yourself correct.On the other hand you've succesfully kept people bashing their heads at a wall. Very successful at trolling, for not trolling

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2016, 10:46:58 pm
content: Here is a 2" tall Coca Cola logo in Gerber rendered at 600 DPI. It is not even a huge file, ~260 KB decompressed.This whole thread is just stupid trolling by a person who has never made a single real board (judging by his other threads).

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 23, 2016, 10:47:05 pm
content: Quote from: MaximRecoil on December 23, 2016, 10:25:19 pmSo what, you have perfectly adequate representation of the shape you need. Do you care about how it's called within the file or what is the final result? Do you care if number of dots with certain resolution are always represented with single dots or short lines representing several dots at a time. Your initial claim was that complex shapes are not possible with Gerbers, which is simply not true. In fact, when I export Gerbers, I can even select with what DPI I want torasterizeimages.

author: MaximRecoil
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2016, 10:55:41 pm
content: Quote from: bpiphany on December 23, 2016, 10:33:38 pmNo, it has nothing to do with anything in this thread.QuoteSo? Rasterization isn't the problem/issue, as I've already explained.QuoteWhen you get into what some factory somewhere might do if you ask, and perhaps paid them enough money, you're getting outside of the context, because, theoretically, the sky's the limit in that case. Sticking with what they advertise / normally do is keeping with the context.

author: rob77
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2016, 10:55:54 pm
content: i'm making my PCBs at home in my lab, but i'm well equipped (various raw materials, chemicals, tools)... i can make very good looking and high quality 2 layer boards... but i would never state they're better than the ones from a PCB fab house... but on the other hand, i have them much faster and much cheaper - turn around time is less than 1 hour and the cost is the raw materials.so regarding the topic of this thread => bullshit

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 23, 2016, 11:00:34 pm
content: Quote from: MaximRecoil on December 23, 2016, 10:55:41 pmRasterize image when exporting gerber files, and any cheap-ass PCB service in china will make you 10 pcs of 10x10cm boards for about 10 bucks with the image you want, be it on copper, solder resist or silkscreen.

author: bpiphany
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2016, 11:20:45 pm
content: Now, since gerber actually is a vectorized format you can even use circular arcs to approximate your bezier curves to desired accuracyhttp://dlacko.blogspot.se/2016/10/approximating-bezier-curves-by-biarcs.htmlBut anyway, let's assume something like this is used to produce the lithographic plates for my circuit boardhttp://www.fortex.co.uk/product/photoplotter-fpm25000/Then I just need make a rasterized gerber of corresponding DPI, send it to the manufacturer, magically plot my bezier curves in a vector manner, and compare to see the horrible approximations made

author: MaximRecoil
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2016, 11:21:33 pm
content: Quote from: ataradov on December 23, 2016, 10:46:58 pmThat, of course, is just a raster image in a Gerber container. Earlier in this thread I said:QuoteSo do PCB manufacturers typically accept raster images for both the silkscreen and copper layers? If so, does it have to be in a Gerber container? If so, what program did you use to put a raster image into a Gerber container (Gerber being natively a vector format)? I like the idea of this.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2016, 11:26:02 pm
content: Quote from: MaximRecoil on December 23, 2016, 11:21:33 pmIn Gerber format - yes, they don't really care what's in your Gerber files. Some do accept vector and raster images in graphical formats, but you will have to discuss this individually.Quote from: MaximRecoil on December 23, 2016, 11:21:33 pmGerber is preferred, since it makes things easier.Quote from: MaximRecoil on December 23, 2016, 11:21:33 pmThis one was done in Eagle. But almost any Gerber producer will do this. There is screenshot above as an example from some other program.And you can rasterize your image to your 5000+ DPI resolution. No one will complain.

author: MaximRecoil
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2016, 11:40:50 pm
content: Quote from: ataradov on December 23, 2016, 11:26:02 pmWhat format was the Coca-Cola logo in when you imported it into Eagle?This is awesome; this is a workable solution for a couple of old PCBs I want to reproduce (and have them made cheaply by a Chinese factory). One of them has curvy traces and the other has a font in the silkscreen that I could only replicate in e.g., Illustrator by tracing each letter/number manually by hand with a bezier pen tool.Before now, the problem was getting the Illustrator drawing into a Gerber file unscathed. The approach I tried was exporting it from Illustrator to an AutoCAD DXF file, but DXF, like Gerber, doesn't support bezier curves, so everything was converted to ugly straight lines which roughly approximate curves. If I can just rasterize it at a high DPI, then put that raster image in a Gerber file, and Chinese factories have no problem with that, then that's perfect.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2016, 11:45:43 pm
content: Quote from: MaximRecoil on December 23, 2016, 11:40:50 pmSome random bitmap I downloaded from Google images. Original image resolution was 3161 x 991. And I specified 600 DPI resolution when I imported it.Quote from: MaximRecoil on December 23, 2016, 11:40:50 pmIt would be logical that exporter would let you pick how smooth your resulting line has to be. I don't see a problem here.Quote from: MaximRecoil on December 23, 2016, 11:40:50 pmThis. Or find a better converter.PS: Your next adventure would be to get Excellon drill file from that Illustrator

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 23, 2016, 11:56:56 pm
content: Quote from: MaximRecoil on December 23, 2016, 11:40:50 pmYou still need to make drilling holes and solder resist layer (openings over pads to be soldered). I would redraw tracks too (would use imported image as background to draw over), otherwise, I guess, quality will be lacking because of quality of imported image. Don't know about Eagle but Proteus, which I'm using, allows making curved tracks and polygons.

author: MaximRecoil
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2016, 12:03:01 am
content: Quote from: ataradov on December 23, 2016, 11:45:43 pmIllustrator's native DXF export function has no such option at all, plus the PCB design program I tried to import the resulting DXF into didn't like it anyway; it came up as garbage. So I used Ghostscript to do it, and that imported into the PCB design program fine, but it looked like this:Ghostscript has a lot of command-line options, but I couldn't find any to give more lines per curve. Either way, if you rasterize the Illustrator file to a high enough DPI (ideally a DPI as high or higher than the final output device is capable of; but 600 DPI is plenty as a general rule), that's the best possible quality anyway. The only downside is that it results in a much larger file size than the vector file it came from.QuoteI would just use the tools native to the PCB design software to do that.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2016, 12:24:56 am
content: Quote from: MaximRecoil on December 24, 2016, 12:03:01 amI don't understand. PCB software can't open Gerber files. They are machine output format. So you can't use that to place drill holes.You may be able to import the same bitmap file and place holes on top of that, but I doubt that final result will be any good unless your board are really coarse and there is not too many holes.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2016, 01:21:42 am
content: Quote from: ataradov on December 24, 2016, 12:24:56 amMany PCB packages can import gerbers.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2016, 01:23:26 am
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on December 24, 2016, 01:21:42 amNot in a really meaningful way. It is probably better than bitmap, but not much. It will probably work for just placing the vias and holes though, you are right.Although I'm not sure how well will bitmap turned into a Gerber import back.

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2016, 01:27:42 am
content: Being able to open and view and, in some sense, work with a gerber file, is one thing.Getting the EDA representation out of it, is a completely different thing.Mike meant the former!Also, this thread is ongoing proof that 90% of peoplewant to be trolled. It's funny that anybody even complains about trolling; so many enjoy it!Tim

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2016, 01:28:47 am
content: Quote from: T3sl4co1l on December 24, 2016, 01:27:42 amEnd of the year, work is slow, need ways to entertain myself

author: MaximRecoil
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2016, 01:29:01 am
content: Quote from: ataradov on December 24, 2016, 12:24:56 amI can use the raster image of the traces/pads/vias as a background image, as a guide to place the drill holes using the PCB design software, and then export those drill holes as a drill file.QuoteThat's exactly what I'd do.QuoteI would draw the vector file for the traces and pads in Illustrator using a grid as a guide, say, a 25 mil grid for example, then export it to a raster image. In the PCB design software I would use the same, e.g., 25 mil grid so that I could easily dead-center each drill hole onto each pad.My top priority though is using a raster image as just the silkscreen layer, which doesn't require extremely precise alignment on the particular PCB I'm working on anyway. I'm working on drawing the letters/numbers in Illustrator right now:Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on December 24, 2016, 01:21:42 amYes, two of the three PCB design programs I've used have that option, so that's what I'd do if using one of those. The third one doesn't have that option, but it has the option to use a raster image as a background guide, so in that case I'd do what I described above.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2016, 01:36:59 am
content: This whole thread is a classic example where a high degree of skills in using one toolset, and ignorance of another, results in a sub optimal solution. Often stated as "To a man with a hammer, every problem looks like a nail".It should be a warning to us all.

author: MaximRecoil
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2016, 02:08:04 am
content: Quote from: CatalinaWOW on December 24, 2016, 01:36:59 amI asked about the bezier curve issuehere, starting with reply #24. I was told that Gerber doesn't support bezier curves, which is true with regard to its native vector format. I didn't know that it could simply wrap itself around an ordinary raster image, much like PDF can, but I'm glad I found out. That opens up unlimited possibilities with trace and pad design, and greatly expands the possibilities for silkscreen design, though I don't know about a typical Chinese PCB manufacturer printing e.g., full color photographic images. There are a lot of restrictions on the raster image according the bitmap import dialog in Eagle, and I guess the rest of it would depend on the Chinese manufacturer's method of printing and/or how flexible they are with their procedures.If any of them are still printing the silkscreen layer with actual silkscreen printing (I would be surprised if any of them are), then they almost certainly wouldn't print a multiple or full color image without charging a lot more, because each additional color requires another screen to be made and another hit with the squeegee, along with other additional steps that add to the workload.

author: slicendice
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2016, 08:14:55 am
content: The silk screen could be hand drawn in MSPaint for what I care, but does anybody actually have a home made PCB with multicolor silk screen that looks really great and the quality is way better than any manufacturer can achieve? I want high res photos, and a detailed description of the hardware tools used and a step by step guide.

author: Howardlong
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2016, 08:38:17 am
content: Sorry, a bit late to the party on this one, but I have the rivet press in the video in the OP.Frankly I found it to be impractical because the die tool set broke after a handful of impressions. At £108 a pop for the tool set, I wasn't in a hurry to give it another shot. That was about 10 or 12 years ago.I do use the rivets themselves though for vias, but I just solder top and bottom. The biggest problem is that the smallest ones are really quite large for today's component sizes.The boards I make myself are only for unit testing, not for production, and I make them myself simply to save time in the development cycle. I can have a board in half an hour including preparation and clean up time, and for any given project I might make half a dozen or more boards for unit testing.

author: timb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2016, 09:48:00 am
content: Quote from: MaximRecoil on December 24, 2016, 02:08:04 amAFAIK it can't embed a bitmap image like a PDF. Instead, your PCB software converts each segment of pixels in the raster image to a corresponding vector line draw command in the Gerber output file.In essence it's being vectorized. This generally works fine so long as the source bitmap is of suitably high DPI.Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

author: MaximRecoil
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2016, 12:17:52 pm
content: Quote from: timb on December 24, 2016, 09:48:00 amThat's interesting. Either way it leads to the same printing/output result, as long as it vectorizes every pixel in the raster image as a perfect square (obviously some of them can be grouped together) rather than using an algorithm to do smoothing approximations like typical autotrace/vectorization software does. It is like drawing a checkerboard/grid in a raster program vs. drawing one with the same size squares in a vector program; both of them would print out exactly the same, as well as look exactly the same on your monitor.

author: Dan Moos
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2016, 07:06:37 pm
content: Show us your work, or shut up. It's really that simple. If you could show us a board that you'd done, with pics of the process to prove you did the work as you described, you'd win the debate, which to this point, you've lost horribly. If you aren't full of crap, why haven't you played this simple and obvious card?

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2016, 07:24:00 pm
content: Ones I made a good number of years ago, while I was still in school. Still in use as well. Made with Dalo pens, SK10 laquer and ferric chloride. Could probably make it now using toner transfer, and it would be a tenth the size with eveything on one board as opposed to 3 for ease of layout and building.

author: MaximRecoil
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2016, 08:13:06 pm
content: Quote from: Dan Moos on December 26, 2016, 07:06:37 pmThis post of yours is an utternon sequitur, and as such, consider it dismissed out of hand.

author: slicendice
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2016, 08:22:51 pm
content: Quote from: MaximRecoil on December 26, 2016, 08:13:06 pmI totally agree with Dan, so far no info with pics and guides has been provided to support the claims in the heading of this thread.

author: Koen
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2016, 08:28:03 pm
content: It ain't over until the fat lady sings !

author: Dan Moos
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2016, 08:29:12 pm
content: So I take it you don't have the goods?

author: Koen
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2016, 08:43:29 pm
content: Typical ad hominem there Dan, consider it dismissed too.I wonder where the other shy geniuses, inventors of the rotating pick and place or the cheap nanometer-accurate linear encoder who used to work at NASA and Lockheed and Boeing and Harvard, are now. I wish they proved naysayers wrong.Pick and Place machine brainstormNew Pick and Place design ideasCheap recognition & pick & place & reflow oven solder machine for tiny PCBs.

author: slicendice
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2016, 09:47:59 pm
content: I have 2 questions:#1 What is the definition of a "better" PCB than manufacturers can make?#2 How can I make a 2 layered PCB at home in my livingroom that hasa. traces that can have any shape and widthb. a solder mask on both sides with any color I choosec. a silkscreen with 16777216 shades and colors and is at least 300PPId. a silkscreen that actually is as strong as the soldermaske. the definition of being better than the PCB manufacturers can produce.I need a list of hardware tools, software and other peripherals. Money is not an issue.This is what this thread is about, and no-one has provided the info on how to actually achieve this at home, right?

author: timb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2016, 10:32:34 pm
content: Quote from: MaximRecoil on December 26, 2016, 08:13:06 pmYou keep using that word, but I don't think it means what you think it means...

author: bpiphany
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2016, 10:36:33 pm
content: Alright, let it go. The poor guy was upset and overreacted. Upset because he broke some pads on a board, and thought it was manufactured poorly. Upset because he copied the board using bezier curves, and it seemed at first glance he couldn't have a board made from that. If he had just asked in a fashionable manner how to proceed with what he had everything could have ended there.The claims that he or anyone can make a better board at home is certainly utter nonsense. Not without professional grade equipment. Not so much with those either. Unless you are the one in a billionhttp://www.daliborfarny.com/#section-about-meBut then, you're no longer at home nor an amateur.The title is nonsense, MaximRecoil got the answers he needed, now let's just all let it go

author: bpiphany
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2016, 10:38:46 pm
content: Quote from: timb on December 26, 2016, 10:32:34 pmJust found this wonderful wiktionary entryhttps://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/non-sequiteur

author: MaximRecoil
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2016, 10:45:55 pm
content: Quote from: slicendice on December 26, 2016, 09:47:59 pmFixed, and you can read that as "typically make", because technically a factory could do anything that anyone at home could do; they typically don't in this case, however.QuoteYou can do that with the typical home PCB etching procedure, which is a photosensitive emulsion process, the same as "burning" a screen for screen printing. Strictly speaking, this can be 100% analog, which, technically, beats digital in terms of smoothness, i.e., you can draw the traces by hand onto a clear sheet of plastic (transparency) and use that to U/V-expose ("burn") the photosensitive emulsion you've applied on the blank PCB. I doubt you'll find a factory these days that will make you a PCB from a hand-drawing mailed to them, but either way, it certainly isn't typical.QuoteSame deal as above. You apply a coating of photosensitive (UV curable) "paint" to the PCB (the solder mask material), make a transparency which has black circles (or whatever shape(s) you need) for where you don't want the solder mask to be (e.g., over the pads and vias), expose it to UV light ("burn it"), then rinse it off. The black circles prevent the UV from curing the solder mask in those areas and it will rinse off, leaving the cured solder mask on the PCB. You could also screen print the solder mask onto the PCB, which is the same idea, and the way that I would do it.Quote4 colors are used to create the illusion of full-color: cyan, magenta, yellow, and black. This, or a variant of this, is used for all forms of full-color printing, i.e., digital (e.g., inket, laser), and traditional (e.g., offset and screen printing). Your monitor uses 3 colors to create the illusion of full-color: red, green, and blue, which is an additive color model rather than subtractive like CMYK.QuoteYou use epoxy screen printing ink. Nazdar is a popular manufacturer of it.QuoteUnlimited shapes with smoother lines; unlimited printing, up to and including full-color; rivets are stronger than typical through-plated holes.QuoteIf you learn how to screen print (and there are tons of resources for that online), you'll know what you need. But keep in mind, that screen printing is a somewhat vast subject; it can be very simple (as simple as a blank screen, hand-cut stencil, ink, and a squeegee) or complicated, depending on what you're doing. Technically you don't even need a computer if you are a good drawer/drafter, and want to keep it 100% analog. For full-color screen printing you'll need either a computer + graphics software + PostScript printer (or RIP software combined with most any printer), or, if you want to keep it analog, you'd need some old film-based equipment, starting with a stat camera, AKA: layout camera.I don't know all the details of how they did full-color screen and offset printing prior to the digital age (i.e., I don't know how they generated the halftones), because I've never used the old photographic film based equipment. People who screen print still make "film positives", but that's just a holdover term, kind of like "dialing" a phone which doesn't have a dial. The vast majority of today's "film positives" are just clear plastic sheets printed on an inkjet or laser printer.

author: MaximRecoil
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2016, 10:47:24 pm
content: Quote from: timb on December 26, 2016, 10:32:34 pmIronically, by disputing the correct usage of the term, you just established that you don't know what it means.

author: timb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2016, 10:48:59 pm
content: Quote from: MaximRecoil on December 26, 2016, 10:47:24 pmQuoteHis conclusion isn't irrelevant. In fact, it's very relevant. Why? Because *you* made specific claims about things you're able to do. However, you don't (or won't) offer any proof of your claims.Asking for proof of an extraordinary claim isn't a logical fallacy, it's science. What you're doing amounts to sticking your fingers in your ears and screaming "LA LA LA LA LA LA I CAN'T HEAR YOU!"When you keep shouting "non-sequitur" at anyone who disagrees with you or asks you to back up your claims with real examples, it makes you look like a massive dick who thinks he's smarter than everyone else. Fun Fact: You're not.Put up or shut up is a valid argument, no matter how much you don't want it to be.

author: MaximRecoil
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2016, 10:55:57 pm
content: Quote from: timb on December 26, 2016, 10:46:56 pmCongratulations on being the forty-eleventh person online who has seen me type "non sequitur", Googled it, found the Wikipedia entry, and unwittingly decided that I didn't use the term correctly. I've typed this out so many times now on various forums that I should save it so I can just copy and paste it. Here goes again:I'm not using the term "non sequitur" in its formal logic sense, which should be obvious to anyone who actually knows what the term means, in all of its senses. I'm using it in its general sense, which is based on its literal Latin meaning of "It does not follow":QuoteFor example, I've never claimed that I had any plans to make a PCB at home, in fact, I've specifically said that I have no plans to do so. Additionally, independently verifiable facts don't require a demonstration. So when someone wants me to make a PCB to demonstrate; such a demand doesn't logically follow from anything I've said.

author: bpiphany
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2016, 11:03:01 pm
content: Quote from: MaximRecoil on December 26, 2016, 10:55:57 pmActually I believe most of us dispute already this. Feel free to show us examples of anyone living up to your original claims.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2016, 11:08:18 pm
content: Quote from: bpiphany on December 26, 2016, 11:03:01 pmThis. A lot of people here deal with various aspects of PCBs on a daily basis. And things you claim to be easy, obvious or possible, are neither. So by default you are wrong until you show the proof. That's how things work in engineering.

author: rob77
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2016, 11:12:33 pm
content: Quote from: Howardlong on December 24, 2016, 08:38:17 ami saved myself few hundred euros (400 for the press and 100 for each size of die) by not buying the press and diesrather using 2 center punches to "set" the rivet and then press it with a flat headed welding clamp. whole tooling was 2x 3euros for the center punches and 8 euros for the welding clamp, works perfectly and it's even faster than the press

author: MaximRecoil
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2016, 11:16:19 pm
content: Quote from: bpiphany on December 26, 2016, 11:03:01 pmBaseless disputes (i.e., mere gainsaying), have no validity. The funny thing is: nothing I have said even remotely falls under the category of an "extraordinary claim". Everything I've said about screen printing and related things such as the use of photosensitive (UV curable) coatings is a fact.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2016, 11:18:02 pm
content: Quote from: MaximRecoil on December 26, 2016, 11:16:19 pmNot when applied to PCB manufacturing. There are clearly no examples of full-color prints on PCB materials, so you can't know that it will work for sure.

author: langwadt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2016, 11:21:08 pm
content: Quote from: MaximRecoil on December 26, 2016, 11:16:19 pmyou mean the same screenprinting and photosensitive ink that PCB factories use and have perfected to n'th degree because that is all they do all day...

author: MaximRecoil
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2016, 11:24:12 pm
content: Quote from: ataradov on December 26, 2016, 11:08:18 pmYes, full-color screen printing (and the use of photosensitive coatings in general to precisely transfer designs) and setting rivets is clearly impossible.QuoteNo, that's not how it works when talking about things which are already known to be possible, and which are already known to have been done, countless times.

author: KE5FX
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2016, 11:34:30 pm
content: Quote from: MaximRecoil on December 22, 2016, 07:21:20 amAsk anyone who's had to deal with PCB eyelet failures onIcomham rigs. There's a reason almost no one uses eyelet vias anymore.Quote from: MaximRecoil on December 22, 2016, 11:03:56 amHow in the world do you think the machines at the board house work?This whole thread reads like some kind of elaborate trolling exercise.

author: rob77
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2016, 11:39:50 pm
content: claims in the subject and opening post are ridiculous - you simply can't make a better PCB at home than in a PCB fab house. you can make very good PCBs at home if you have the equipment, but you'll never ever do it better than in the PCB fabs.i make my own boards using laser printing to polyester transparencies(dimensional stability) and UV transfer to Riston dry-film photo-resist and Dynamask dry-film solder mask. attaching one of my boards - ADC board and details of a ring guard on the opamp's input to show that fine details are possible.but back to the topic - you simply can't make better boards than a pcb fab do... that's a fact. and i say this because i know how the pcbs are made and i do make them at home.

author: MaximRecoil
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2016, 11:50:28 pm
content: Quote from: langwadt on December 26, 2016, 11:21:08 pmThey don't all use the exact same things. There are lots of companies which make such products.QuoteWhat do you think there is to "perfect"? Screen printing isn't like a professional athletic sport; the learning curve isn't particularly steep. It is mainly a matter of finding out what you need to do; putting it into practice once you know what you're supposed to do (and have acquired the prerequisite equipment/supplies) is relatively easy.Photosensitive coatings aren't even remotely esoteric. After applying, you let it air-dry in a dark room (or a room with "safe lights"), then you cover up the parts that you don't want to keep with something that will block UV, such as a clear plastic sheet that has a design printed in black ink. Then you expose it to UV light, which cures the coating, except for the areas which have been blocked. When you rinse it out, the cured coating stays and the uncured coating rinses away, thus transferring your design.This basic principle is used for silkscreen printing, for solder mask, and for etching the copper layer(s).

author: MaximRecoil
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2016, 11:58:18 pm
content: Quote from: KE5FX on December 26, 2016, 11:34:30 pmWhat kind of failures? And what were the rivets made of? And what was their wall thickness?QuoteYes, because it's very expensive and labor-intensive compared to plating. By the way, someone else's anecdote on this thread is at odds with your anecdote.QuoteWhat are you talking about? My post had nothing to do with the output devices. It had to do with the idea of manually drawing straight lines in PCB design software to try to approximate a bezier curve.

author: rob77
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2016, 12:02:04 am
content: Quote from: MaximRecoil on December 26, 2016, 11:50:28 pmdry film photo-resist is prevalent nowadays especially for runs with low amount of boards... and don't be fooled that the photo-resist is used as etch resist in PCB fab housesmostly tin plating is used as etch resist followed by alkaline etching (tin plating to protect the copper plated vias). and that part of the process is very hardly reproducible at home... if you can reproduce it, then it means you invested freaking too much into technology and in fact you have a PCB fab house and you can start your own business

author: MaximRecoil
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2016, 12:16:06 am
content: Quote from: rob77 on December 27, 2016, 12:02:04 amNor does it matter. All of the exposed copper will be or can be soldered. Plus, copper-left-bare isn't a big deal anyway, except in harsh environments. I have an old PCB that had alkaline batteries leak onto it before I got it, which had soaked into the solder mask. I scraped all of the affected solder mask off of it, down to the bare copper, intending to put some epoxy resin over it eventually. I never got around to it. That was about 10 years ago and the bare copper is still bright and shiny.

author: mrpackethead
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2016, 12:20:46 am
content: Try to put rivets in .1 and .2 mm vias.how to do you make blind and buried vias?How do you make the rivets flat enough so i can put them under a IC package and still reflow it.Maybe your home looks like a professional pcb fab, but mine has more exciting things in it.

author: mrpackethead
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2016, 12:23:49 am
content: Quote from: MaximRecoil on December 26, 2016, 08:13:06 pmDERIDEO TE

author: MaximRecoil
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2016, 12:27:21 am
content: Quote from: mrpackethead on December 27, 2016, 12:20:46 amMaybe you should read the thread again. Be on the lookout for the phrase "within certain limitations".QuoteYournon sequituris dismissed.

author: rob77
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2016, 12:27:56 am
content: Quote from: mrpackethead on December 27, 2016, 12:20:46 amthe OP didn't post any picture of his PCBs , so i assume his home doesn't have any PCB making equipment

author: MaximRecoil
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2016, 12:40:38 am
content: Quote from: rob77 on December 27, 2016, 12:27:56 amI have screen printing equipment/supplies and a drill press, which is most of what I would need. Things I don't have are: a rivet-setting tool and rivets, epoxy ink, and the specific chemicals for the copper etching. This is fine, because as I've already said, I have no intentions of making a PCB at home for any reason (that isn't what this thread is about); it isn't worth the time and effort when you can get them made so cheaply in China. And having a multi- or full-color print on a PCB doesn't even interest me, but that doesn't change the fact that it is something I can do at home which is above and beyond what a typical factory does.

author: rob77
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2016, 12:49:39 am
content: Quote from: MaximRecoil on December 27, 2016, 12:40:38 amso in fact you never made a PCB don't even have the equipment/knowledge/experience but yet claiming you can make a better PCB at home than a PCB fab does ? let me remind you of th etopic you chooseQuote

author: NottheDan
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2016, 12:50:49 am
content: Quote from: MaximRecoil on December 27, 2016, 12:40:38 amFixed That For You

author: MaximRecoil
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2016, 01:09:00 am
content: Quote from: NottheDan on December 27, 2016, 12:50:49 amIf you're going to "fix" things for people, at least get the spelling right.Also, you have "fixed" nothing, given that your statement that you falsely attributed to me isn't even a point in contention.

author: MaximRecoil
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2016, 01:12:37 am
content: Quote from: rob77 on December 27, 2016, 12:49:39 amAll design-transfers using photosensitive coatings are fundamentally the same process. Do you know how a screen is "burned" for screen printing? If you did, you would know that anyone who can do that, can also do the copper etching and solder mask on a PCB, as well as print ink onto a PCB.Quote"Can" means "able to", and yes, I can, within certain limitations, as I've already mentioned. I don't need to specifically drive a 1978 Ford Pinto to know that I can do it. You're apparently unfamiliar with the concept of a transferable skillset, or you don't know enough about the skillset to realize how transferable it is.QuoteAgain, "can" means "able to". I know exactly what I am able to do.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2016, 01:24:51 am
content: Now you just look silly. There is a lot more to PCB manufacturing than screen printing. But it is pointless to explain this stuff here.

author: NottheDan
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2016, 01:25:50 am
content: Quote from: MaximRecoil on December 27, 2016, 01:09:00 amIn other words, you fixate on complaining about minutiae because you fail at understanding what you read. Maybe you should spend more time contemplating what people are telling you and less raging about the fact that they refuse to agree with you.Oh, and in case you still fail to understand, I attributed nothing to you I fixed your claim to correspond to the actual facts. So you may learn.

author: MaximRecoil
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2016, 01:34:50 am
content: Quote from: ataradov on December 27, 2016, 01:24:51 amYour straw man is dismissed.Quote from: NottheDan on December 27, 2016, 01:25:50 amThis is comically ironic, coming from someone who posted anon sequitur, i.e., tried to argue a point that wasn't in contention in the first place. Show me where I said, suggested, implied, or even hinted that anything I've talked about would be"worth the inveased time and investment effort to do in a factory environment."I won't hold my breath.QuoteThis is anothernon sequiturfrom you, and as such, consider it dismissed.QuoteThat's a bald-faced lie. In your post it said "Quote from: MaximRecoil" and then you placed your own words in the alleged quotation:QuoteIn reality, you did nothing but post anon sequitur. See above.

author: mrpackethead
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2016, 01:44:15 am
content: ULTINAM LOGICA FALSA TUAM PHILOSOPHIAM TOTAM SUFFODIANT!

author: ovnr
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2016, 02:13:51 am
content: Wasn't there some facility to permanently ignore/hide posts from certain members? Because this thread makes me want tonever everread anything MaximRecoil has written.I'd appreciate pointers on where to find it.

author: MaximRecoil
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2016, 02:36:17 am
content: Quote from: ovnr on December 27, 2016, 02:13:51 amGood idea, and your tacit concession on the whole matter is noted.

author: bpiphany
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2016, 06:35:05 am
content: Can't resistIt's obviously pointless to argue. The OP either can't handle loosing an argument, or is gravely delusional. His claim can be re-interpreted in so many ways anyone can claim to have won. Anyway, he doesn't know where to stop. It's probably time us others show we do...He has shown non of what he claims to be true. On the other hand examples have been given in the thread of boards manufactured with curly traces. Granted gerbers doesn't support them, rasterizing the image near the end of the process is a non-problem. Also boards with more-than-one-color printing has been shown to exist.If you are in the special needs class you may sometimes have to ask for special quotes. I'm pretty sure my local pizzeria will make me a pizza without cheese, even though they have none on their menu. If I want kangaroo on it I may need to shop around a bit to find someone willing to provide me with that. Equating this to "isn't it strange that I can make better pizza at home than pizzerias make" makes almost, but not quite, entirely nonsense.

author: mrpackethead
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2016, 07:22:24 am
content: Quote from: bpiphany on December 27, 2016, 06:35:05 amSomewhere in my life, and i'm struggling to remember where, i had pizza with crocodile, which is vaugely related to Kangaroo, just because it lives in australia and thats where everything wants to kill you. Irelevant? much like this post has bcome.

author: bpiphany
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2016, 07:29:09 am
content: Had kangaroo once, at a restaurant, just to try it. They are pretty uncommon here on the antipodal of the backbush. Wasn't much special, and fortunately not particularly expensive even by restaurant standards. I have seen it in the freak show meat counter at the grocery store. Where they have crocodile, zebra, other jazzy exotic meat side by side with the more generic moose, boar and that other local stuff.Perhaps afugupizza would be more of a challenge. I bet that probably wouldn't come without a ton of hassle and special toolery..

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2016, 08:03:39 am
content: Crocodile is easy, just have to go to Crocworld a hour away, or go to the local butchery and get some, along with Kudu ( lovely meat that, had some Xmas eve), Springbok, Wildebeest and Impala, all when available. Off the shelf some lovely Skilpad and Pofadder, which might not be to most people's tastes.Placed an order for Warthog, that is so much better than bacon.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2016, 08:19:50 am
content: My youngest got a nice fat Fallow spiker yesterday, really looking forward to a feed of that when it's seasoned some.

author: mrpackethead
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2016, 08:55:34 am
content: Quote from: bpiphany on December 27, 2016, 07:29:09 amIf you dont' show us pictures, i don't believe you can make it better at home than in a Fugu Pizza Factory.Its the holidays i have time to partake it such a garbage thread.

author: MaximRecoil
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2016, 09:04:38 am
content: Quote from: bpiphany on December 27, 2016, 06:35:05 amThis assertion of yours has no basis in fact.QuoteI don't need to show thatfactsare true. Every aspect of design transfer when making a PCB (copper etching, solder mask, and silkscreen) is fundamentally the same thing as making/burning a screen for screen printing, or, in the case of the silkscreen layer, it is 100% screen printing. The only difference is the specific chemicals used (though they all function on the same principle, i.e., photosensitive/UV curable). All that's left aside from those things is drilling holes and installing rivets, neither of which require any special skills.QuoteShow me an example of traces that are 100% analog, from start to finish, i.e., never entering the digital domain. I can do that at home; do you know of a factory that will do it?QuoteYou're confused. Rasterizing the image near the end of the process doesn't help matters, because software that generates Gerber files doesn't have any means for drawing bezier curves in the first place, because Gerber doesn't support them. The workaround that I was made aware of in this thread is to start with a raster image that was drawn in a different program, such as Illustrator (vector drawing which you've exported from Illustrator as a raster image), or you could draw it as a native raster image in e.g., Photoshop. Then there are some PCB design programs which will allow you to import that raster image which can then be exported as a Gerber file. It's a kludge, but you could theoretically get very good results with it. Of course, that's still not analog, which can be done at home without using a computer at all, for anything.QuoteNo one showed a factory-made PCB with e.g., a full-color photographic image printed on it, not that I recall anyway. If someone did, please link to it.By the way, I can make a better pizza at home than any place in my town makes. Mine cooks in 4 minutes on a 3/8" thick plate of steel preheated to 700 degrees F; a 4-minute cook time is the gold standard for making "New York style" pizza. All the places in my small town that make pizza are just Mom & Pop convenience stores which don't specialize in it, and they all taste more or less the same, since they are get their ingredients/supplies from Sysco, and they all use the same type of pizza ovens which take about 7 or 8 minutes to cook the pizza.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2016, 09:09:11 am
content: Quote from: MaximRecoil on December 27, 2016, 09:04:38 amYou are really not getting it, do you? Gerber IS the final step. Gerber is that rasterization. PCB software does not work with Gerber files directly. PCB software keeps its Bezier curves in its internal format, where they are perfectly smooth.And in general Gerber is printing hardware-dependent, so it is typically rasterized at a final output resolution. Most people don't care about this, since they are remote from the actual machines, but people making boards, they don't take your gerbers directly, they suck them in to CAM software and generate Gerbers (or something else) for their machine.

author: mrpackethead
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2016, 09:15:17 am
content: Quote from: MaximRecoil on December 27, 2016, 09:04:38 amYou do if you want anyone to take you seriously. But I guess in your own mind, you dont' have to do anything, so in your world your 100% correct. In everyone elses world, well, they will reach their own conclusions.QuoteYour a banana. or a pizza.QuoteWhat a suprise.Quotesays who. Yourself?Theres a trend here.. everyone else is pathetic wrong and informed, and not as good as you. Is that what you want me to believe.

author: rob77
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2016, 09:17:40 am
content: @MaximRecoil1. you're acting stupid, sorry it's a fact2. you're talking bullshit, sorry it's a fact3. you earned a place in my ignore list, that's a fact and i'm not sorry for thatdon't bother to answer/quote this post (see #3 above).and a piece of advice for you... what you think you can do is not what you actually can do, there is a significant gap between those two and the only way how to bridge that gap is to gain knowledge and experience.

author: MaximRecoil
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2016, 09:24:20 am
content: Quote from: ataradov on December 27, 2016, 09:09:11 amComical Irony AlertQuoteNo kidding?QuoteAnd here's the reason for that Comical Irony Alert, because it shows that you clearly don't get it. I'll repeat:You're confused. Rasterizing the image near the end of the process doesn't help matters, because software that generates Gerber files doesn't have any means for drawing bezier curves in the first place, because Gerber doesn't support them. The workaround that I was made aware of in this thread is to start with a raster image that was drawn in a different program, such as Illustrator (vector drawing which you've exported from Illustrator as a raster image), or you could draw it as a native raster image in e.g., Photoshop. Then there are some PCB design programs which will allow you to import that raster image which can then be exported as a Gerber file. It's a kludge, but you could theoretically get very good results with it. Of course, that's still not analog, which can be done at home without using a computer at all, for anything.In other words, in order to have a representation of bezier curves in a Gerber file, you have to start with a raster image and import it into a PCB design program, because there's no way to draw bezier curves in the PCB design program itself.QuoteShow me a PCB design program which has a bezier pen tool.QuoteEverything that is printed digitally is rasterized first, if it isn't raster already.

author: MaximRecoil
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2016, 09:25:58 am
content: Quote from: rob77 on December 27, 2016, 09:17:40 amYour baseless and irrelevant "op-ed piece" is dismissed, and given that you have no arguments whatsoever, your tacit concession on the whole matter is noted.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2016, 09:26:29 am
content: Quote from: MaximRecoil on December 27, 2016, 09:24:20 amThat is a problem with your PCB software, not Gerbers. I have no idea if commonly available PCB software supports Bezier curves.Quick search shows that Altium supports Bezier curves in schematics, but not on PCB. I'm not sure if this information is up to date.

author: MaximRecoil
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2016, 09:30:57 am
content: Quote from: mrpackethead on December 27, 2016, 09:15:17 amIs that a joke? I don't need to show that facts are true, because fact are trueby definition.As for the rest of your post, it's anon sequitur, like most everything else you've typed on this thread.

author: MaximRecoil
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2016, 09:36:37 am
content: Quote from: ataradov on December 27, 2016, 09:26:29 amIt doesn't matter whose problem it is; it's a problem nonetheless.QuoteInteresting, but that doesn't help matters. By the way, I don't mind being proven wrong on this at all, because I would really like to know of a PCB design program which has a bezier pen tool.

author: slicendice
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2016, 09:44:02 am
content: I could make a space ship at home, and it could travel more than 10x the speed of light. It could also have a shield that is impossible to penetrate and could have laser guns that could destroy a whole solar system with only using a millionth of it's full capacity. And it's a fact that I could make it better than anyone in any factory because I say so. So there is no need for me to demonstrate this as my word is all proof you will ever need. All info on how to build such ship can be found using Google. Good luck in making a better ship than I could make. ;-)

author: MaximRecoil
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2016, 09:48:08 am
content: Quote from: slicendice on December 27, 2016, 09:44:02 amGreat "analogy", you know, between something not known to be possible at all, and something that's been possible for over 100 years (design-transfer using photosensitive chemicals), and is not exactly rocket science.

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2016, 09:48:23 am
content: Quote from: slicendice on December 27, 2016, 09:44:02 amSo this isn't aboutPCB... errr... sorry... I mean space ship ? Its all about recognition by the internet crowd, right ?Then this thread should be moved into suitable place like "General Chat section" as its more for "social" type of thread.CMIIW

author: slicendice
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2016, 10:00:29 am
content: Quote from: BravoV on December 27, 2016, 09:48:23 amYes, the claims in this thread sound as ridiculous as my analogy. There is a big difference between could and can. Heck, I could even move things with my mind using no tech to assist me. But can I? Maybe, maybe not! Could it happen in my lifetime? Maybe, maybe not!Considering this thread as entertainment, and has nothing to do with real life facts.

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2016, 10:06:35 am
content: Quote from: slicendice on December 27, 2016, 10:00:29 amI believe you ... where the hell is the "Like"button for your post there ? At least that will boost a little bit of your ego and be proud that you've been "recognized" by your claim and get the fame "and the attention" that you've been dying for.Quote from: slicendice on December 27, 2016, 10:00:29 amSo are you saying yourself is aclown... errr ... sorry .... I mean an "entertainer" now in this holiday season ? I don't mind though.

author: slicendice
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2016, 10:14:17 am
content: This is the closest proof to the claims for this thread I've found so far. Very good looking PCB. And the hardware cost only about $800. But is the PCB better quality than any factory can make? I have no idea, as I don't own this CNC machine. I do however worry about how much weaker the traces will become in places where the solder mask is drilled away. No true color silkscreen either. But the software used is free.EDIT: Link to the seller of this toolhttp://wegstr.com/EDIT: The price was wrong, corrected

author: MaximRecoil
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2016, 10:23:31 am
content: Quote from: slicendice on December 27, 2016, 10:00:29 amThat's ironic, given that none of my claims are even remotely extraordinary. There are many videos on YouTube of people at home doing the things I've said I can do at home. I don't know if you'll see anyone who has bothered to do a full-color screen print on a PCB (I know I wouldn't bother, as I've said already), but it's no different than doing a full-color screen print on any other substrate, aside from having to select the right screen and ink for the job.You obviously don't understand the process, as you aren't using facts/arguments to dispute anything I've said; you're merely a garden-variety "heckler", and mere heckling in an argument = a tacit concession.QuoteNo, there isn't. Without additional qualifications, they both mean "able to". "I could drive to the lake," and "I can drive to the lake," both mean exactly the same thing.QuoteI'm sure you couldn't.QuoteAt this point, you fail Analogies 101 forever.

author: MaximRecoil
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2016, 10:35:06 am
content: Quote from: slicendice on December 27, 2016, 10:14:17 amWhich claims do you think need proof? Here's a video where someone applies photosensitive solder mask (UV curable):https://youtu.be/Vj_cdBZO1TkAnd no, you don't need a CNC machine to drill away the solder mask on the pads (nor for anything else); that defeats the purpose of the "UV curable" part. If you're planning to drill away the solder mask on the pads, you wouldn't need UV curable at all, you could simply use air-curing epoxy resin from your local hardware store. And I would do it better than the guy in the video I embedded does, because I would screen print it on, which results in a very uniform application.There are countless home PCB etching videos on YouTube, even one by what appears to be a 10- or 12-year-old girl, and that works on the exact same principle (design transfer using photosensitive chemicals).Screen printing is yet another photosensitive design-transfer process. If you want to see full-color screen printing being done, search YouTube for something like "simulated process", or "4-color process", or "CMYK process", in combination with the term "screen printing" or "silkscreen".None of this is extraordinary for someone to do at home. The only thing extraordinary is the baseless incredulity of you and others over very doable things.

author: slicendice
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2016, 10:54:39 am
content: LOL, this thread appears to be going nowhere.Searching using all the search criteria yielded no PCB screen printing processes at home that would be even remotely as good as what manufacturers make. Not to forget full color results.

author: MaximRecoil
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2016, 11:08:10 am
content: Quote from: slicendice on December 27, 2016, 10:54:39 amOnly from the perspective of someone who doesn't understand the processes involved.QuoteThere is nothing unique about screen printing on a PCB. The PCB is just the substrate. You would use epoxy ink, which is the same thing you would use for e.g., screen printing on metal. The only difference the substrate makes is with regard to ink and screen selection, i.e., you wouldn't use fabric inks for printing on metal, plastic, etc., and while you can use a low mesh-count screen for printing on anything — because rigid, non-porous substrates can hold more detail than fabric can — you can take advantage of that by using higher mesh-count screens.This video has some screen printing on optical discs:https://youtu.be/bOqtdyY8DOQ

author: timb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2016, 11:57:05 am
content: MaximRecoil, has anyone ever told you that reading your posts gives them douche chills? Because god damn, I seriously feel embarrassed for you every time I read one...My guess is you're in your early 20's and still think the world revolves around you. You think you're *soooo* much smarter than everyone else. Don't worry, I used to be like that too. Most of us were. One day you'll wake up and realize what a complete cactus ass you were and be more than a bit embarrassed by it. Most of us have.I'm sure right now you won't take this post as anything but a non-sequitur ad hominem logical fallacy argumentia ad nauseam, but in 10 years or so you'll suddenly remember my words and throw up in your mouth a little at the thought of what a complete and utter ass you used to be.I've used a bit of linguistic programming to ensure that happens. A namshub in your brain, waiting to execute. Purposefully posting pretentiously programmed polysyllabic prose, if you will.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2016, 12:00:01 pm
content: So you can silkscreen a near realistic colour photo onto a PCB, using at least 5 screens for CMYKW (cyan,magenta, yellow, black and a white underlay to get decent brilliance) for something that can do around half the Pantone range, or you add extra screens to blend outside that for highlights.I can see that as being useful on a front or rear panel, to put in logo's, full colour artwork, reasonably hard wearing soft buttons ( providing you use a reallly hard wearing epoxy, and another clear top screen for extra protection, and possibly an epoxy fill to give depth) along with being able to do them cheap if you already have the equipment.Making screens though is really only the final process, your input file can be in any format that exceeds the screen resolution, so almost any design program ( or even actual scanned art) that exceeds 300DPI per colour will work, as you likely will be making at most 133LPI screens., and then halftones there will reduce it even further. Most printers will see 133DPI as high resolution, and will do most jobs at a lot less.

author: MaximRecoil
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2016, 12:17:35 pm
content: Quote from: timb on December 27, 2016, 11:57:05 amYournon sequituris dismissed. Get back to me when you can actually disprove something I've said.QuoteI'm 41, and I'm never embarrassed about being correct, though I would be embarrassed if I were blunder-prone enough to suggest someone should be embarrassed about being correct. People who don't like it should refrain from arguing; they are clearly too delicate for it.QuoteYournon sequituris dismissed, and given that your post contained no arguments whatsoever, your tacit concession on the matter is noted.

author: timb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2016, 12:19:20 pm
content: The burden of proof isn't on me. I'm not making the claims, you are...And if you're really 41, wow, just wow. You must live a sad and lonely life. :-/

author: MaximRecoil
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2016, 12:36:59 pm
content: Quote from: SeanB on December 27, 2016, 12:00:01 pmYes. And you can use white solder mask, which would double as the white underlay for the screen print. I summarized the CMYK process earlier in this thread, by the way.Quote133 LPI is typical for offset printing; screen printing normally uses a lower LPI (and keep in mind that LPI is only relevant to halftone; spot colors have infinite resolution with regard to the screen). 133 LPI can be done with screen printing, but it requires very thin, specialty inks which have to be UV cured. 133 LPI offset printing is what you typically find in books, magazines, posters, etc. As I said, you won't normally get that level of resolution with screen printing, except with somewhat exotic supplies, but with spot colors and an emulsion with good bridging capabilities, the sky is the limit on "resolution" (because with spot colors, resolution ceases to apply to the screen itself). All the text and component symbols on a PCB would be best done with a separate screen; 1-color spot color.

author: MaximRecoil
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2016, 12:41:32 pm
content: Quote from: timb on December 27, 2016, 12:19:20 pmIt is if you're disputing independently verifiable facts. Facts, by definition, have already been proven. Since you seem to disagree with facts, yet you have nothing to support your disagreement, the result is a tacit concession on your part. It remains noted.QuoteConsider your laughable crystal ball reading attempt / armchair psychoanalysis combination dismissed out of hand.

author: Alex Eisenhut
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2016, 01:30:25 pm
content: You seem to like taking notes. Are they also full-color Bezier silkscreens printed on PCBs, or do you use some other technology for your note-taking?

author: slicendice
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2016, 01:40:53 pm
content: I really got on a bad mood because of all this "I know best and everybody else is wrong and know nothing" attitude. This thread does not help anyone become a better PCB maker, nor better electrical engineer. I was actually interested in how a high quality PCB could be made at home using multiple different techniques. But none of the replies or claims helped even remotely. Now my curiosity is gone.

author: Koen
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2016, 01:45:56 pm
content: But now you know that if you believe hard enough and search your heart, everything truly is possible. It's Christmas everybody, let's rejoice in the thought of what could be !

author: rob77
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2016, 02:27:47 pm
content: now as most of the posts are "You are ignoring this user. Show me the post." because i added one single entry to my ignore list, i will ask one question... why the hell would anyone need a high resolution full color silk screen on a PCB ? the PCB is not visible in the final product.btw the CNC milled PCB above is not good enough - small details are not possible, you can't even route a single trace between SOIC pads (like the guard ring example i posted earlier).

author: MaximRecoil
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2016, 02:38:47 pm
content: Quote from: Alex Eisenhut on December 27, 2016, 01:30:25 pmI didn't say anything about "taking notes". Your "joke" would work better if, in common-speak, "taking notes" always meant the same thing as "noting" something.Quote from: slicendice on December 27, 2016, 01:40:53 pmAren't you the one who posted a video of a PCB being made with a CNC machine, including drilling solder mask off from pads? I guess you learned that a CNC machine is completely unnecessary. Aren't you also the one who had no idea about what can be done with screen printing, but didn't let it stop you from arguing about screen printing with a screen printer (me)?Quote from: rob77 on December 27, 2016, 02:27:47 pmWho said anything about "need"? Personally, it isn't something I'd bother with, because it wouldn't be worth the time/effort, but there are some people who would like to have such a print on a PCB.QuoteHow do you know? And why are you backpedaling on your ignore plan?

author: Alex Eisenhut
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2016, 02:52:02 pm
content: Your undiagnosed personality disorder is noted.

author: MaximRecoil
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2016, 03:06:44 pm
content: Quote from: Alex Eisenhut on December 27, 2016, 02:52:02 pm^^^ An example of "monkey see, monkey do," plus some psychobabble; all in one post, no less.

author: slicendice
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2016, 03:26:07 pm
content: Quote from: rob77 on December 27, 2016, 02:27:47 pmRegarding the photos you sent in an earlier post. That CNC machine can make much more detail than the traces seen in your pictures. Watch all the videos and you'll see how accurate the machine is.About full color silkscreen. Maybe I want to make a PCB that will act as a front panel for my gadget. Maybe I want it to have a really nice background. Maybe the panel is part of a bigger picture...Only problem is how to actually achieve this so it looks really nice. Sure, I'd love to know how to get it done at home, with high quality.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2016, 03:34:48 pm
content: Quote from: MaximRecoil on December 22, 2016, 02:13:01 am-blaah-. you have no clue have you ?why do you need bezier curved traces ? there is no need for that.rivets ? find me a rivet that can fit in a 10 mils hole... Plated via's are just fine. and no , it's not glue that holds the plating in the hole.multicolor silkscreen ? most boards these days are so dens there is no room for silkscreen. besides ? what is the point ? nobody is looking at the board that sits deep inside the bowels of some machine. It's not a piece of art you stick on the wall..

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2016, 04:06:21 pm
content: Quote from: MaximRecoil on December 22, 2016, 04:40:41 amno it isn't. maybe 50 years ago. but those days are long gone. take a core , drill , plate , laminate on dry-film , expose using an LDI or a maskless imager ( no films, photoplots or screens needed ) , throw in a developer chemical , tin plate, strip , etch , print soldermask ( inkjet printer ) and legend (inkjet printer).NOBODY mucks with screen printing anymore. it is too expensive, time consuming and inaccurate. you need to plot a film , expose the screen , develop it. make sure it remains properly tensioned. Doesn't warp. The fibers in the screen limit the accuracy and resolution. they need to sit in frames that are heavy and take up lots of space on the factory floor. the screens can be torn by accident. and swapping the frame takes time. Alignment is a semi-manual process.The LDI and inkjet printers need no human intervention. board goe sin , a camera and barcode reader , identify the board, load the right datafile from the server , the cameras align the image properly on the dryfilm for exposure down to 0.1 mils ( that is 1/10000 ( ten-thousandth)) of an inch . the inkjet squirters spray at 1200 dpi. that is less than 1 mil ... which means i can have soldermask down to 1 mil off the copper.Quotesimple :

author: slicendice
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2016, 04:18:44 pm
content: Quote from: free_electron on December 27, 2016, 03:34:48 pmWhile this is the case for 99.999999% of all PCBs, but what if the PCB is something that is put on the wall, and it needs to be pretty, it needs to be slim and all the components are surface mounted on the other side of the PCB (the hidden side). How can I make a Mona Lisa of PCBs and make it durable at the same time? Is it possible or not, using tools than can be purchased for/build at home?

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2016, 04:21:02 pm
content: Quote from: MaximRecoil on December 27, 2016, 12:36:59 pmso you cant print anything small than roughly 8 mils ... that's gonna be tough.current boards : 4 mil track , 3 mil gap and soldermask registration accuracy down to 1 mil... with 3 mil slivers.your screen doesn't even have the resolution to get there.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2016, 04:22:26 pm
content: Quote from: slicendice on December 27, 2016, 04:18:44 pmthen it is most likely a one-off. airbrush it if you want. or use a 4800 dpi laser color printer to print on a lamination foil. done. no need for wet ink and silkscreens.

author: slicendice
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2016, 04:29:25 pm
content: Quote from: free_electron link=topic=80235.msg1100081#msg1100081Thanks, didn't think of the obvious. :-)

author: rob77
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2016, 04:40:00 pm
content: Quote from: slicendice on December 27, 2016, 03:26:07 pmthe machine can be the most accurate machine in the universe, but you simply can't make too narrow traces because the copper will be torn of the board by the rotating bit. try to mill a PCB with 8 mil traces and you will see that all of the sudden milling is not the best idea ever...

author: slicendice
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2016, 04:56:11 pm
content: Quote from: rob77 on December 27, 2016, 04:40:00 pmYou are probably right, 0.20 mm trace is not much. But for most scenarios a small printer-sized CNC-machine that is quiet and accurate would be more than enough for my projects. One convenient tool that does all the work for me except putting on a soldermask and tinning the solder pads. Best of all, no need to work with all the dangerous liquids used in PCB making.

author: G0HZU
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2016, 05:23:56 pm
content: Quote from: rob77 on December 27, 2016, 04:40:00 pmYou can make narrow traces with a PCB mill because I've done it quite a few times over the years. I use an old T-Tech 7000S to mill PCBs and you can either use the pointed tool (and some experience/skill) to mill narrow traces or you can use a narrow end mill tool. eg 0.005". I generally avoid using the 0.005" endmill tool but the pointed tool can mill narrow traces quite well as long as you control the cut depth properly. You only get the tearing effect if the tool is worn or damaged or if the mill itself is damaged or worn (or the mill is a cheap/poor design) or if the operator lacks the skill and experience to mill stuff properly.

author: slicendice
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2016, 06:11:05 pm
content: Quote from: G0HZU on December 27, 2016, 05:23:56 pmThanks, this is what I was thinking too, but as I don't own a CNC-machine I can't argue any facts in either direction. Your reply helped a lot.

author: rob77
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2016, 06:13:41 pm
content: Quote from: slicendice on December 27, 2016, 04:56:11 pmmilling comes with it's own dangers, copper splinters , glass-fiber and epoxy dust everywhere.... at the end of the day it's not so obvious which one is less hazard for you. most of the chemicals used in the process are used in households (drain cleaner, washing soda) and no-one considers them a huge danger.

author: rob77
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2016, 06:16:56 pm
content: Quote from: G0HZU on December 27, 2016, 05:23:56 pmcan you show a example PCB with 8/8 or better features ? a close-up photo of the 8 mil or narrower tracks would be great, thanks.EDIT: of course a milled PCB.

author: slicendice
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2016, 06:23:01 pm
content: Quote from: rob77 on December 27, 2016, 06:13:41 pmThe mill can be put in a box, and the dust can be vacuumed on the go or afterwards. In a small mill like the one I posted about in previous posts, the dust does not leave the PCB surface anyways, unless using compressed air to blow the dust off, which would be insane to do at home.

author: G0HZU
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2016, 06:30:14 pm
content: QuoteI don't need to. Just read the spec sheet for a modern milling machine.http://www.lpkfusa.com/products/pcb_prototyping/machines/protomat_s63/The machine above claims 4 mil width and spacing as below.Quote

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2016, 06:32:48 pm
content: Quote from: G0HZU on December 27, 2016, 06:30:14 pmI'd still like to see a sample. Marketing material is one thing, and what is actually achievable with real materials, in a reasonable amount of time, and without smashing your head against the wall, is a totally different thing.

author: G0HZU
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2016, 06:40:19 pm
content: I've seen this movie already on Eevblog. Even if LPKF produced a sample plot of 4 or 8mil traces some paranoid tinfoil hat wearing 'expert' on here would claim it was fake or photoshopped. So what's the point?

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2016, 06:40:47 pm
content: Quote from: G0HZU on December 27, 2016, 06:30:14 pmbwahahahaaaaa. LPKF ... notice the wording : "May be possible dependent on tooling, copper thickness, substrate type and peel strength".translation: if you spend a whole month precisly aligning the thing , using brand new tools and specially selected stuff. mill it on a full moon night after the machine has been blessed by a tahitian priest performing the sunset ritual and you feed the machine brand new electrons from freshly pulled wire. then maybe ... but we don;t guarantee any success, even in that case.I had a 95S top of the line. anything below 8 mil was a nightmare. The problem is that the mills are 45 degree fluted . The depth controls the width of the trace .... any unevenness in the material and it goes wonky. it is enough that the bedding material is uneven or you have some dust under the head or between bed and pcb and it goes wonky. have the drill shift in the collet and it goes wonky. have the crimp ring shift and it goes wonky. and that is if the macine doesnt break the tool , rams into its own toolchanger cause it lost the position ,or fucks up because of the serial port not working properly ...In short : these machines are very cumbersome to set up and dial in properly. they are not fire and forget. i learned my lesson. PCB milling is nonsense.

author: G0HZU
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2016, 06:43:47 pm
content: translation: If you put a clueless fucktard at the controls it obviously won't work.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2016, 06:47:04 pm
content: Quote from: G0HZU on December 27, 2016, 06:43:47 pmThe reason I asked for samples and free_electron's comment is that the claim is not something known to be easily possible. And extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. And it looks like we won't see a proof here either.

author: slicendice
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2016, 06:52:40 pm
content: Quote from: G0HZU on December 27, 2016, 06:30:14 pmNice find! I like this one.Quote from: G0HZU on December 27, 2016, 06:40:19 pmAgreed!Quote from: G0HZU on December 27, 2016, 06:43:47 pmHahha, so true! Been working a lot with automated systems where precision is top priority. Even a decent machine operator can sometimes screw up things. :-)

author: slicendice
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2016, 06:55:06 pm
content: Quote from: ataradov on December 27, 2016, 06:47:04 pmI give you proof of success or failure once I can afford a milling machine and have some PCB to mill. Might take some time though...Edit: I need a milling machine for engraving stuff anyways...and it has to be high precision.

author: G0HZU
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2016, 06:57:56 pm
content: Quote from: ataradov on December 27, 2016, 06:47:04 pmIn the past I've milled flexi PCBs on my old machine using double sided PCB material that was so thin it appeared and felt to be like copper paper. The dielectric was really skinny. I really don't care if you don't believe me but these things are possible if the operator is prepared to put in the time and effort setting up the backing material, the tool depth and if they use the right tool. I've been using these machines for 20-25 years.If you give it to a clueless novice (eg free electron) then what do you expect?Eevblog is an amazing place to go if you want to come across loads of inexperienced 'experts'. If you want to know what these machines can do then get an LPKF rep to show you. If you can't (won't ever) do this then why worry what it can or can't do?

author: rob77
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2016, 07:16:20 pm
content: and here we go again... claims without evidence... if you guys are so smart and super experienced and you did it a bazzilion times, then upload a freaking image of milled PCB made by you - showing a detail with 8mil traces. i'm curious how the traces look like, because a small bow/cup in the FR4 copper clad could destroy the trace. so unless you have high-end CNC machine with perfectly flat vacuum bed , it's extremely hard to go for such fine details (and we're out of the DIY at home realm).i posted a home made PCB with 8mil detail showing it's possible. if i replace my 1200dpi laserprinted polyester transparencies with films produced by a 2540dpi imagesetter then i could go down to 6 or even 5 mils. (a local company can print the films on a scitex dolev 250 for 5eur/A4 page). one of my current project involves 6mil traces, i will definitely post a picture, even make a video of the DIY PCB making process... but in the meantime i would really like to see your 8mil milled PCB

author: G0HZU
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2016, 07:23:40 pm
content: My machine was a high end machine 20 years ago. I think it was made in 1996 and was originally purchased by Hewlett Packard. I think it cost $10k when it was new. I'm the second owner.If milling 8 mil traces was impossible with these machines then why do you think they sell end mill tools in 1 mil step sizes starting at 4 mil? I think I have some 5 mil end mills here.http://t-techtools.com/store/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=3Presumably this is all part of the conspiracy to fool people into buying these machines and I'm a paid shill?

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2016, 07:27:04 pm
content: Quote from: G0HZU on December 27, 2016, 07:23:40 pmTo make money?Quote from: G0HZU on December 27, 2016, 07:23:40 pmNobody says anything like that. We really just want to see the actual quality of the finished board. And maybe get some idea how hard it is to actually use this method. But I guess we are not getting this.

author: rob77
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2016, 07:31:39 pm
content: Quote from: G0HZU on December 27, 2016, 07:23:40 pmi'm not saying milling machines are no able to produce such small details, i'm not saying 5mil end mils doesn't exist.... i asked you to show us a milled PCB with fine details...i'm curious how does a real-world milled PCB look like, considering all the imperfections in raw material i would assume it must look like shit.. so i'm curious how does it really look like. so please post a picture of a real world milled PCB.. please.

author: G0HZU
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2016, 07:31:43 pm
content: Quote from: ataradov on December 27, 2016, 07:27:04 pmMy machine is 20 years old and requires a lot of manual skill (and sympathy) to use. The best performance will come from the newest machines. Like I said, there's no point me wasting my time producing a PCB image because if you don't believe me now then WHY are you going to suddenly believe any jpg image I produce? You already think I'm not trustworthy!

author: mrpackethead
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2016, 07:34:56 pm
content: Quote from: G0HZU on December 27, 2016, 06:57:56 pmNow you've got my on my other pet rant. LPKF. I bought a S62 mill from them. Worst piece of crap machine. Never did what it said it would, and LPKF's service was terrible. Only got returned and refunded under threat of legal action.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2016, 07:35:08 pm
content: Quote from: G0HZU on December 27, 2016, 07:31:43 pmNo, I don't. You are completely misreading the situation.I simply want to see what 4 mil milled tracks look like. Nothing is perfect, especially at this size. I just want to see how imperfect it actually is.

author: G0HZU
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2016, 07:40:53 pm
content: Quote from: ataradov on December 27, 2016, 07:35:08 pmMy machine is 20 years old. 4 mil is the spec for the newest and best machines. Get an LPKF rep in to show you and you can look at it under a microscope. Don't expect to be able to reproduce this yourself unless you are prepared to learn how to get the best from the machine and you use decent tools and materials and prepare the materials carefully.

author: mrpackethead
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2016, 08:04:15 pm
content: Quote

author: G0HZU
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2016, 08:22:25 pm
content: QuoteAt work we have an LPKF machine and I think we have had it for well over 10 years. It's needed a few repairs in this time but it has been used a LOT and we still have it today. Only trained operators are allowed to use it and I think we have just one operator now. Even I'm not allowed to use it although I did use it briefly when it was new. In our case we found that if you train the operator then you get good results.If you 'experts' were to be believed then LPKF and T-Tech would have gone out of business decades ago.I think we ought to redefine what expert means. Maybe it means 'Tried it, fucked it up and failed so now I'm going to be a self appointed authority on the subject and slate it"

author: rob77
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2016, 08:25:21 pm
content: Quote from: G0HZU on December 27, 2016, 08:22:25 pmblah...blah...blah...blah.... still no picture posted ? boring...

author: G0HZU
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2016, 08:29:39 pm
content: QuoteI'm not the one making the extraordinary claim. You seem to think that 8 mil traces are not achievable. This goes against decades of use of these machines by many operators. I think it's up to you to prove that LPKF and T-Tech have based decades of their business on a lie. I don't need to be a part of this. I already know these machines can do it based on 20-25 years' experience.It's up to you to prove that your claim is correct. What is your claim based on? We are talking about the proper high end machines from T-Tech and LPKF. How many of these machines have you used, which models were they and how many PCBs have you milled with them?

author: rob77
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2016, 08:41:56 pm
content: Quote from: G0HZU on December 27, 2016, 08:29:39 pmonce again and slowly... i hope you get it now...i would like to see a real world milled PCB with 8mil or better features. you claimed it's possible and also claimed you did it... so please post a picture... if a machine is capable of 1 micrometer of accuracy, it doesn't mean the PCB traces will be flawless.. there are too many factors (also irregularities in the raw material ) and i think the copper might tear off and height irregularities in the base material will deform the trace width... i never seen a fine detail milled PCB, so therefore i'm asking you (a person who claims he done it) to post a picture.

author: G0HZU
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2016, 08:49:06 pm
content: So basically we have gone from this 'expert' statement:QuoteTo an admission that you simply don't know but you 'think' the tool might rip off the 8 mil strip of copper. I guess LPKF and T-Tech can sleep easy now.

author: rob77
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2016, 08:55:03 pm
content: Quote from: G0HZU on December 27, 2016, 08:49:06 pmi have a micro milling machine (proxxon MF70) and my "think" is based on experience with milling and experience with real world imperfections in materials. based on my experience i think the PCB with such narrow traces will look like shit. so once again and slowly.. PLEASE POST A PICTURE TO SHOW ME I'M WRONG OR PLEASE BE SO KIND AND SHUT UP.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2016, 08:58:14 pm
content: Quote from: rob77 on December 27, 2016, 08:55:03 pmI agree.I never milled PCBs personally, but all milled PCBs I've seen out there looked like total garbage and were nowhere close to 4 or even 8 mil. So I would be interested to see one such PCB.

author: slicendice
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2016, 09:18:53 pm
content: I think one thing we can agree on, if making 4mill PCB traces, were it etching or milling method, one can't expect to get any good results from a cheap china laminated copper clad board?At those levels of accuracy the board, starting from the fiberglass to copper laminate has to be top quality. Also the machine and it's drill bits for milling traces has to be top of the line. Or in case of etching the methods used has to be super precise and high quality.

author: G0HZU
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2016, 09:22:10 pm
content: QuoteI've not used a Proxxon MF70 but google throws up this:http://www.proxxon.com/en/micromot/27110.phpThat isn't a PCB milling machine. A milling machine looks like this:http://t-techtools.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=14_19&products_id=288That's the modern version of mine. Take a look at the specs for resolution and repeatability. Stick a decent 5 mil end mill in the thing and it will mill narrow (8 mil?) traces up until the mill tool wears out. The 5 mil tools are expensive ($40 each?) and I try and avoid using them and I use the pointed tool or a 15mil end mill for most of my work. The sharpness of the edges depends on the operator skill (and the preparation) and the materials used. You can produce PCBs that look like they have been milled with a worn out Dremel if you don't operate it correctly or you can mill something decent if you use it correctly. With the V (or pointed tool) you cut the copper at a slight angle and if the tool is sharp (with a decent copper weight) you can see the slope of the cut in the copper under a microscope.QuoteThis is the problem with this forum. It's filling up day by day with people like you. I'm not the one posting up bullshit claims based on zero experience with the tools. But this didn't stop YOU stating that 8 mil traces would get ripped off the PCB. I have nothing to prove as I'm getting the results expected of the equipment. I'm not claiming anything extraordinary.

author: Koen
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2016, 09:29:58 pm
content: Resolution and repeatability give no indication of accuracy. Just an information for young players looking to buy their first CNC machine, whatever it is.

author: G0HZU
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2016, 09:34:19 pm
content: QuoteBut they give a good indication of how well the machine can mill straight/parallel traces. If these numbers were bad then 8 mil trace widths would become an issue.

author: rob77
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2016, 09:40:10 pm
content: Quote from: G0HZU on December 27, 2016, 09:22:10 pmi never stated i'm milling PCBs on that mico milling machine, i stated i have experience with milling and imperfections in materials... and therefore i think 8 mil trace will look like shit... i was asking you to post a picture of such a PCB, but instead of posting a picture you talk about specs of some machines..i will not argue with you anymore , rather i'm going to add you to my ignore list.

author: G0HZU
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2016, 09:43:40 pm
content: QuoteYes run away and hide. Please do. Come back when you have proved that LPKF and T-Tech can't mill 8 mil traces without ripping the copper off the PCB.

author: rob77
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2016, 09:54:54 pm
content: Quote from: G0HZU on December 27, 2016, 09:43:40 pmactually it's not the milling machine why i think it will rip the traces off.. it's the base material... but apparently you're not able to understand.and instead of posting a picture of something you claimed you did, you just keep attacking...

author: G0HZU
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2016, 10:07:37 pm
content: Just google for a few images of milled PCBs. If you find a few raw ones that use an end mill you will see places where an end mill has left a tiny sliver of copper between routs that almost meet in parallel. Sometimes this residual trace (that is not part of the wanted artwork) can be a few thou thick (or less) and it doesn't get ripped from the PCB. If you were to use a worn or damaged tool or the system was poorly set up on the base material then it would be different. Sometimes these residual (unwanted) traces can be amazingly thin. Often they are so thin they can be picked away with a fingernail afterwards or a quick swipe with a hot soldering iron will detach them from the PCB. But the router tool let them stay in place without any ripping. If the tool starts to go blunt you can sometimes see the residual traces spiral up off the PCB and vanish into the vacuum extractor but these are extremely thin traces. Much thinner than 8 mil.

author: G0HZU
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2016, 10:53:02 pm
content: Here's an image from LPKF showing 100 micron spacings:It's of limited value because you really need to look at it under a microscope rather than look at a camera image but you can see they managed to get 5 traces in about 50-60mil. I don't have a milling tool this fine here at home and my machine is far from a modern example. I have a Zeiss microscope here but I don't have a camera that can easily take a decent image of the tool cut area along each side of a track. Plus I don't think I need to prove anything.If you don't believe LPKF's image then why would you believe mine? It's all a waste of time and would only invite more questions and demands and laughter from the various 'experts in short trousers' on here.

author: slicendice
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2016, 10:56:59 pm
content: heheh, GOHZU hasn't attacked anyone. Decent talk and even a few links for further information to back up claims.

author: slicendice
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2016, 11:03:51 pm
content: That's one really good looking board. Yes, you are right, a microscope would be better, and don't think we need to discuss this any further. At least one decent attempt to back up all the talk. Nice one GOHZU, thx.

author: Koen
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2016, 11:10:30 pm
content: Quote from: G0HZU on December 27, 2016, 09:34:19 pmNo, you cannot infer accuracy. This is exactly the trap to avoid. It is confusing to newcomers and the marketing department knows it well. You can have high resolution, perfect repeatability but off-the-chart accuracy. It doesn't give you any insight on build quality either.

author: G0HZU
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2016, 11:33:52 pm
content: Quote from: Koen on December 27, 2016, 11:10:30 pmI'm not trying for absolute accuracy. It's the ability to mill traces 8 mil wide with reasonable performance. Even if the machine had a gradual scaling error across the PCB it should still mill a set of parallel traces adequately. They might not be exactly where you want them in terms of XY registration but that wasn't the exam question.Obviously, the traces won't be exactly 8 mil wide either but then even the main PCB houses have etching tolerance limits. Rob77 claimed the copper would be ripped off the PCB.

author: MaximRecoil
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2016, 11:41:50 pm
content: Quote from: free_electron on December 27, 2016, 03:34:48 pmComical Irony Alert (the reason for that will become apparent shortly).QuoteWho said anything about "need"?QuoteI suggest you reread the thread. Be on the lookout for the phrase "within certain limitations".QuoteRivets are stronger.QuoteThis is anon sequitur. I said that glue / chemical adhesive holds the copper to the fiberglass, which means it holds the pads to the fiberglass, because the pads are part of the copper layer, and plating is too thin to provide much structural support for it, unlike a rivet.QuoteFalse, and that's especially false with regard to most boards that people design at home and order small quantities of from an inexpensive Chinese manufacturer.QuoteYou don't know what the board will be used for.Quote from: free_electron on December 27, 2016, 04:06:21 pmYes, it is, given that I'm talking about making a PCB at home.QuoteYournon sequituris dismissed. See above.QuoteI do, obviously. By the way, how's the weather out there in deep, deep left field?QuoteNot that any of this is relevant, but no, the fibers in the screen do not limit the accuracy and resolution, except when doing halftones. For spot colors, which is pretty much all that was ever used when PCB factories still did real silkscreen (typical white spot color for printing text and component symbols), there is no resolution limit on the screen.QuoteStill irrelevant of course, but I'll point out that screen printing is used for some rather small/fine stuff, such as in the manufacturing of thick film ICs:QuoteNo, it isn't simple, given that you didn't draw that Coca-Cola logo. I said:"Try todrawthe Coca-Cola script logo in a Gerber file, for example." In other words, try to draw the Coca-Cola logo in a program that can generate a Gerber file.Quote^^^ Another report from deep in left field. Had you actually read what I'd wrote, you would have discovered that LPI only applies to halftones, and halftones would only be used for printing artwork. Artwork doesn't need to have a particularly high level of precision. For precise labeling purposes with e.g., text and component symbols, you would use 1-color, spot color, which has no inherent screen-based resolution limitation.QuoteYeah, if you happen to be an airbrush artist, and even among airbrush artists, there are very few who can paint convincing photorealistic images. On the other hand, screen printing itself is a by-the-numbers technical procedure, rather than an artistic one. Anyone can learn to do it, and you can use pre-existing art or photographs if you have no artistic talent.QuotePerfect, if you want a tiny sticker that will fit on a blank part of the PCB, and look like, well, a sticker. On the other hand, with screen printing, you could have a photographic image as your entire solder mask layer(s) if you wanted to.QuoteSee above.

author: rob77
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2016, 11:59:34 pm
content: Quote from: G0HZU on December 27, 2016, 10:53:02 pmthat's a PR picture - board made under ideal conditions. that's not a example of a real world scenario....for example have a look at this video @ 5:32this guys is demonstrating the same machine and during demostration of the builtin camera inspection - the board looks quite shitty compared to that PR picture. as you can see at 5:32 of that video the trace between the 2 pads is much thinner than should be - if that happens to a 8 mil trace then that trace is gone...so that's why you have to consider real-world stuff and not PR stuff prepared under ideal conditions.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2016, 12:04:36 am
content: Quote from: rob77 on December 27, 2016, 11:59:34 pmYeah, but he is reusing the tape to save some money and his tool is going to expire shortly and he ignores it "for now". I'm not convinced that is is that bad either, but more real users experiences are welcome.

author: rob77
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2016, 12:12:31 am
content: Quote from: ataradov on December 28, 2016, 12:04:36 amthat's what i was asking for - a picture of real world milled PCB with fine details. the only good looking milled PCB picture google found was that LPKF PR picture. so hopefully someone will post a real world example here

author: timb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2016, 01:04:54 am
content: Quote from: MaximRecoil on December 27, 2016, 12:41:32 pmYou're the one making the claims, so you need to provide proof that your information is correct. Until then, it's your opinion, not a fact. (Just because you believe something to be true doesn't make it so.)You can't expect to start spouting off a bunch of stuff and have everybody just take your word for it. The burden of proof is on you. No matter how much you'd like it to be otherwise, this isn't the way it works.You could be 41 and my analysis would still apply. There are a number of disorders in the DSM-V that would explain your personality, but there's no point in going on.If it makes you feel any better I have a degree in Psychology, so you can consider it a professional opinion rather than armchair psychoanalysis.By the way, you must be a lot of fun at parties!

author: G0HZU
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2016, 01:23:53 am
content: QuoteIt's late and I'm tired but I skimmed his milling videos and I think what you see there may be a combination of user errors.I think the skinny trace isn't meant to be there (because it shorts the two 5V PSU connection pads?) but it may well be present on his PCB artwork. Maybe he left it there by mistake?So that is (possibly) error #1The next error is that this part of the PCB layout may well be flagged up as an illegal milling error on his PCB screen. In one of his vids the software GUI has a suspicious 'X' over this area. I have no idea what the X means but it could well be another error wrt tooling selection vs rubout effectiveness. Maybe this area of the PCB can't be milled accurately with his selection of tools? Did he ignore this? Error #2 and #3?Then it may well be possible that he loaded the machine with the wrong sized tool for some of the milling. The traces look much narrower than I expected to see? I don't know how foolproof his machine is in terms of tool loading and selection. I've not used that machine but it looks very nice and powerful. It's not a great demo video anyway. The PCB is very crude with fairly chunky tracks. I don't think you should judge LPKF quality on this video.

author: G0HZU
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2016, 01:40:25 am
content: I've not used a vacuum table machine but his PCB did look quite grimy as well. Could the PCB have slipped on the grime and moved? The tape should help but only up to a point and he only taped part of the area?On my machine I have to use old school registration pins to register the PCB to the bed. This works really well for two layer boards when tape is also used. The PCB gets held down really well but I still tape all 4 edges of the PCB for X and Y and Z locking.There are just too many questions/possibilities as to why that trace milling looked wrong in the video. I guess it also proves that it's pointless for me to mill something on my old T-Tech machine and try and show it. Like I said, I've seen this movie before. Anything I did would be followed by "yeah but, no but" "that looks fake" "look at this other video/image" "LPKF still sucks" etc etc.

author: MaximRecoil
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2016, 06:53:55 am
content: Quote from: timb on December 28, 2016, 01:04:54 amThe only claim I'm making that isn't independently verifiable is that I am able to do these things. If I say I can do something, I can do said something, and I couldn't care less if some random person online is baselessly incredulous. However, all of these things are certainly possible to do at home; that's an independently verifiable fact; no proof required, by definition.QuoteNo, not an opinion, and you clearly don't know what an opinion is. If I say I'm able to make a box of macaroni and cheese, that's a fact, regardless of whether or not I want to "prove" it to a mere gainsayer.QuoteYournon sequituris dismissed.QuoteYou don't know what you're talking about. See above.QuoteUh huh. Psychology being largely snake oil notwithstanding, someone who is actually competent in this not-even-remotely-a-hard-science field would know that trying to diagnose someone they've never even met is asinine. Furthermore, said someone would know that an argument is a specific scenario. It would be like a so-called "psychologist" seeing a boxer fighting in a ring, and "diagnosing" him as being a violent person based on that.QuoteYeah. That boxer you saw in the ring must be a lot of fun at parties too, you know, punching everyone in the face that he sees. One scenario is applicable to all scenarios, right? Your laughable attempt at a crystal ball reading / armchair psychoanalysis combination remains dismissed, for obvious reasons, and your tacit concession on the whole matter remains noted.

author: MaximRecoil
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2016, 08:55:02 am
content: Quote from: mrpackethead on December 28, 2016, 07:01:02 amOut of all the instances of comical irony on this thread, this one's the best, given that the most inane and irrelevant posts in this thread have come from you, Archimedes.

author: mrpackethead
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2016, 09:03:38 am
content: Quote from: MaximRecoil on December 28, 2016, 08:55:02 amYour non sequitur is dismissed. Can you tell me what does it feel like to not understand that everyone thinks your a clown.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2016, 04:30:47 pm
content: Quote from: G0HZU on December 27, 2016, 10:53:02 pmsure they can do this for this useless little board with 3 components and a tiny little rubout area. ask em to do a eurocard ( 100mm x 160mm ) packed with 5 or six big TQFP's 0.5mm pitch ( 208 pin , 176 pin ) and abot 300 other components ( both sides of the board. ) and a complete rubout ( not just isolation milling . i want to have the board as it will be when it would be etched. without floating copper. the milling time goes to more than 2 days. the chances of anything going bork are very high. tool breakge, tool wear ( even on an autochanger). you will have to have an operator monitor the machine. you still need their minicontac to do the plated via's ( double sided board ) . it's just not worth it. even if all goes weel you have a one off board, no soldermask , no silkscreen , no surface coating .They may be usable for little boards where rubou is not required. or specialty one-off RF boards with black-magic pin filters and some academic research stuff. but as a rapitd prototype tool ? just send your design to a real pcb fab. have board in 8 hours. real board. more than one

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2016, 05:49:58 pm
content: QuoteYou started it.Quoteyes you did ! You invaded poland ...Quotei make pcb's that use 0.5mm tqfp packages. i need rivets that fit in 10 to 12 mil holes. as that is what i can get from even the cheapest china made board. i don;t want to do concessions or restrict what i can make because of 'rivets'Quotethey are also bigger, take a lot of time to install , and therefore very restrictive as a technology. there is a reason the last boards that used rivets for metallisation were in black and white tv's from the mid 60's that used vacuum tubes ... ( Loewe and Grundig had tv's until the mid 70's that had tulip-turret rivets for through-plating. they were abitch to get the components out of and most of the time the rivet came out with the capacitor ... so far for 'rivets are stronger'. i desoldered many a component from such boards. they were the phenolic resin type ( not fiberglass)QuoteWhich is still wrong !. There is no glue !Glue is an agent that is used to bond two material, other than itself together. you make a sandwich top material, glue , bottom material.On a pcb the copper adheres directly to the resin during the curing of the resin. There is no 'sandwich'.The plating in the hole is semi-diffused into the resin. They use an etchant-like material to make the wall surface porous at a microscopic level. An ionic exchange swaps this etchant-like liquid in the porous surface with copper ions ( or carbon in the old black-ink process) to make the wall conductive. under a microscope this stuff looks like stucco. then you plate copper. so you fill the microscopic cavities. in other words : that copper is not just a layer on the surface. it is anchored in the walls of the hole. the plating is anchored so strongly i can press-fit pins with 60 newtons of force to form a gas-tight connection that will survive 20 years of strong vibration without failing. Not a problem. It will not strip the plating out of the hole.QuoteQuoteThat is false to the small quantity for Chinese hobby makers.I don't know of any home PCB maker that bothers with silkscreen. In my 40 years of pcb making at home (shit i just realize i'm old...) i never bothered with it because the standard home process is photographic and 99% of the hobbyists that make pcb's at home dont have printing presses. They have a printer , transparencies and a light bulb. Use draino as developer and the brown ferrous chloride to etch. I even did use tape and rub-off (deca-dry) transfer symbols and black tape directly on copper. and decon-dalo pens( the blue ones.) In my heyday i used an hp7660 plotter on vellum to make my master using rotring pens with Chinese ink. Later is switched do 600 DPI inkjet (Deskjet + ) on tracing paper. to make the master. These were photographically transferred to real film (Agfa Litex). I used my same UV exposure unit ( it still sits in my garage today). put litex on the master .apply press-plate made from quartz ( from an old photocopier) expose using UV light from 4 tubes. For 3 seconds. Then develop the litex and throw it in the fixer chemical. Wash the film , put another sheet of litex on the still wet first one, rub out the air bubbles , expose again , develop, fix and wash. let dry. this is a photographic master. ( Litex is a negative film so you need to reverse it again ). From this master i could make many pcb's.I use Bungard pre-sensitized photo boards. kept in a refrigerator for longevity. i still have 10+ years old stock that works as well as it worked when new. I used sodium-metasilicate and not that stupid sodium hydroxide ( which is drain opener essentially ...) Sodium hydroxide is crap. get the concentration and temperature wrong and it either doesn't develop or it strips all in the blink of an eye.Etching was done using ammonium-persullfate at 40 degrees centigrade.I can easily do boards with 0.5mm pitch and 6 mil traces using this simple hobby setup. I now inkjet at 2400 dpi on overhead transparency film and expose directly from this. 1:15 exposure with my light unit. 20 seconds in the developer , 5 minutes in the etchant. Done. Needs an inkjet printer , photoboard and 2 chemicals. no films, no printing press , no inks , no curing. nothing. 10 minutes to make a board ( if the etchant is warm , otherwise add 10 minutes for the aquarium heater to warm the tank )But i haven't bothered with any of that since Iteadstudio and Seeedstudio made PCB's affordable. ( 6 to 7 years ago ).As for the non- hobby market :the mass volume boards have no silkscreen on them. it is useless as these boards are automatically populated and irrepairable anyway. Cellphones, smartphones, tablets, harddisks . I made PCB designs for harddisks. Some of my layouts ran over half a million boards .. a DAY ... No time to put on silkscreen. it is useless and a cost and time adder. The factories that made those are Tripod and TopSearch in hongkong. Topsearch cranks out 1.5 million square feet of pcb's a month ...Quoteno i don't . but 99.99999999% of the pcb's in the worlds sit somewhere in the guts of something else where nobody ever gets to see them. I don't care about your artsy-fartsy rainbow colored pcb. It is out-of-the-norm and a one-off.Ranting that the whole world is doing it wrong 'cause their processes don't allow rainbow colored silkscreen' is stupid.Quotei just described in detail the home process. either using decon-dalo pens, dry-transfer symbols and tape , or the photographic process. I have not seen the usage of a screen printer in my 30 years of home pcb making ( and my process started with the pens and went far beyond the average hobbyist by using real artwork film and the proper chemicals ). I don;t know of any hobbyist that use screen printing to make pcb's at home. ZERO ( and i know lot's of em ). you can ask here on eevblog who makes pcb's at home. you will find none that use a screen printer.QuoteThat was a screenshot of Altium Designer ( PCB layout program, that can generate gerber files ) with a small board where is stuck the coca cola logo in. I grabbed an SVG ( vector file) and simply pasted that onto the silkscreen layer. Altium will spit that out as gerber without problems. If i had the coca cola font as a true-type font i could even have used that.So your statement is bullshit. Any modern PCB software can do that. If you want real artwork : draw it up in Adobe illustrator -> save it as a DXF -> drop it directly into the PCB and generate gerber. Not a problem. I do it all the time.Quotebullshit. i can use a color laser to print a full colr 11x17 foil that gets heat-laminated on a pcb. perfectly photorealistic. at resolutions your screen printer can only dream of. ( and much faster , and cheaper )Screen printing is going the way of the dodo (apart form some specialty applications, and the old momm-pop shop that happen to still have a dusty one around).The advent of inkjet and laser technologies have made full color reproduction so cheap that they are pushing screen printing out of the market. Things change. T-shirts are now inkjet printed. full color brochures are spat out by laser machines.Screen printing is becoming an archaic technology. Gone are the days of screens and pots of ink and messy print houses with multicolored splotched all over the floor and walls and a guy in coveralls smeared in ink. The printing world today is run by clicking a mouse and a big machine in a nice, clean, warehouse , spits out the result quasi immediately without splattering ink everywhere.The real PCB world has already moved the photoplotter, screens and ink squirters to the scrapheap. Dryfilm, LDI and maskless imaging. no mess no muck , faster , cheaper and better. The shops that still use screen printing are switching out fast because they can't compete anymore (time-wise) . the shops that stick to it become stuck in old-technology and will die out over time.I made my first circuit board when i was 8 years old ( 39 years ago ) on a phenolic single sided copper clad board using a decon-dalo blue pen. i drew my layout in pencil on quadrille paper, used an awl to punch the location markers for the holes. then carefully redrew the layout using a decon-dalo pen for the traces , and dry-transfer symbols for the IC sockets. I etched it in ferrous chloride and hand drilled it. It had 3 IC's , 3 led's and a few passives. It was a logic level detector using a CA3140 opamp , a few nand gates and a flipflop. Schematic from elektor in 1977. I made my first photographic process PCB by reproducing the elektor function generator (XR2206 based) . Double-sided , fit in a Vero-box. must have been mid 80's. elektor published the masters on the centerfold of the magazine. i photocopied those layouts on transparencies. I had the first Deskjet+ inkjet printer, like 6 months after it came on the market. I was using Autotrax 1.61 under DOS 5.0 ( ancestor of Protel , now Altium ) at work to print PCB designs on tracing paper and litex film to make my masters. that was 1991... One of my latest is a 22 layer and has 37.000 via's, 100.000 nets and 4000 components using 3 mil track and gap. using blind and buried and laserdrilling. Another one has 200+ ampere running through it on 8 layers using 4 ounce copper on inner layers.I sort-of -know how a board is made :in my garage , at my local shop (Sierra PCB in sunnyvale) , at my local shop for high-technology-mediam volume (TTI / Viasystems ), and at Tripod (Hong-kong) for mass volume. I have used many techniques to make boards myself.But never a screen printer.Or rivets ...And i don't regret it. It's archaic , cumbersome and outdated.

author: G0HZU
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2016, 05:57:19 pm
content: QuoteThat kind of proves why it would have been a waste of time me demonstrating anything last night (at past midnight?) for anyone's pleasure. It would have just resulted in more dismissals and more demands for more and more complex boardsQuoteObviously, you can get fine end mills that mill to a certain width and these aren't as depth sensitive as the universal or V cutters.However, I try and avoid using the very fine end mills here at home on my old T-Tech machine. I think I have some 5 mil and 6 mil versions left but these are best suited to the newer machines. I can do pretty well with the V tools and a 15 mill end mill for the vast majority of the stuff I do here at home.The end mills are important (to me) when milling RF traces for various RF filters or RF related shapes that need to be milled with critical dimensions. This applies to fat traces as well as getting the required thin gaps between them for RF stuff. The end mill makes the cut depth less critical but the tool costs are much higher. Especially for the fine end mills. When I use the fine ones here at home it will just be for a few critical cuts to set a clearance between resonators for example.At work, the chap who does our milling on the LPKF machine often mills boards with fine pitch SMD chips on it. Often these boards are quite big (ballpark 100x160mm) but they are usually just test jigs so they are not heavily populated. But he does get good results when milling fine traces across the board and into the various SMD devices.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2016, 06:35:24 pm
content: Clearly everything has it's place. Routing times do get high when there is lots of material to be removed. So leave the complex boards with lots of material to remove to either PCB etching houses or additive approaches. Also a small mill has a place for the hobby person or small shop who can use it for a variety of purposes, thus justifying ownership. The mill will likely not be used full time for anything, so long production times are less of an issue. And not everyone can get eight hour turnaround from a pro board shop. For most of us mere mortals turnaround will be two, three or even four days depending on time of submission and delivery options. Where I live if the board house turnaround was under a minute the best possible overall turnaround is very close to one day, and that requires luck and good timing relative to the parcel services schedules. My best observed times are far higher.Even the screen printing touted by the OP is a viable option for some. If they have screen printing capability for other reasons, and have NC drilling capability (which could be adapted to rivet setting capability also). Better is defined by your own metrics and I can see where these might be better on someone's ruler.I don't understand the hang up on Bezier curves, other than as an indication of the OP's preferred tool set. The types of images he is attempting to duplicate were extremely unlikely to have been generated using Bezier tools. More likely was either free hand or an older technology - the French curve. Old circuit cards and the Coke logo were developed long before Bezier curves were implemented as a method of capturing curves in computers. Another one of those esoteric math developments that made it into common use. As an aside, from Wikipedia, transforming a Bezier curve into a sequence of line segments can be done ineptly. Apparently the SW the OP has experience with is inept. I have used several that aren't. Again an indication of not enough tools in the toolbox.From Wikipedia - "The simplest method for scan converting (rasterizing) a Bézier curve is to evaluate it at many closely spaced points and scan convert the approximating sequence of line segments. However, this does not guarantee that the rasterized output looks sufficiently smooth, because the points may be spaced too far apart. Conversely it may generate too many points in areas where the curve is close to linear. A common adaptive method is recursive subdivision, in which a curve's control points are checked to see if the curve approximates a straight line to within a small tolerance. If not, the curve is subdivided parametrically into two segments, 0 ? t ? 0.5 and 0.5 ? t ? 1, and the same procedure is applied recursively to each half. There are also forward differencing methods, but great care must be taken to analyse error propagation."

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2016, 09:26:00 pm
content: Contributing to the nonsense. This thread is a typical xkcd strip:https://www.xkcd.com/386/

author: slicendice
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2016, 09:28:48 pm
content: Quote from: rsjsouza on December 28, 2016, 09:26:00 pm

author: MaximRecoil
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 29, 2016, 12:41:46 am
content: Quote from: mrpackethead on December 28, 2016, 09:03:38 am^^^ Another example of "monkey see, monkey do," which is an even better example than the other one on this thread. In fact, this one's a textbook example, and, ironically, it's anon sequiturto boot.QuoteComical Irony Alert: Part XIIIQuote from: free_electron on December 28, 2016, 05:49:58 pmI guess you didn't understand the question, because that's anon sequitur. Once again, who said anything about "need"?QuoteYou've replied to the wrong post, and the wrong thread for that matter.QuoteThanks for sharing, but that's irrelevant.QuoteYou either don't know what you're doing when it comes to desoldering, or you don't have the right tools. There's no reason why a rivet would come out with a capacitor unless you're applying a lot of force to it without properly desoldering it first. A rivet in a given size hole does have more mass than a through-plated hole (which is why it's stronger, plus drawn copper tubing has a stronger grain structure than copper plating does), but it's still a very small mass in the grand scheme of things. A quality soldering iron (Metcal, JBC, etc.) would have no problem quickly melting all of the solder within a rivet so that it could be properly desoldered.QuoteIs that a joke? The resin is functioning as a glue / chemical adhesive. If you put a drop of epoxy resin mixed with hardener on a piece of wax (which it won't adhere to, obviously), and then put a penny onto the resin; when the resin cures/hardens, what's holding the penny to the resin? In any case, consider your semantic games dismissed.QuoteOf course the plating is strongly adhered to the walls of the hole; all plating, done properly, is strongly adhered to the material it's plated to. That doesn't mean it's providing much structural support to the copper layers. On the other hand, a rivet is actually designed to mechanically clamp materials together, which is why you can, e.g., attach a quarter panel skin or new floorboards to a car with rivets. Suppose that, instead of rivets, you merely through-plated the holes you drilled in a quarter panel skin. How long do you think it would stay attached to the car? Not very long or not at all, because the plating is very thin. If it weren't extremely thin, you'd have the same problem you complain about with rivets, i.e., you wouldn't be able to through-plate those tiny PCB holes you love so much.QuoteWhich is why so many people on this thread are making ignorant comments about screen printing, because they don't know the first thing about it.QuoteThis is a case of severalnon sequitursrolled into one. Also, LOL @ "your artsy-fartsy rainbow colored PCB". I don't have any such PCBs, nor do I have any intentions of making any, which you would already know had you read the thread before replying. Also, I assume you have a black & white TV. You obviously have no use for "artsy-fartsy rainbow colored" video. And the entire color-printing industry, both traditional and digital, only exists to produce "artsy-fartsy rainbow colored" stuff, right?QuoteI said:"The entire process of making a PCB (aside from riveting) either is screen printing or is very analogous to it (i.e., photosensitive stencil-making emulsion type process)."This paragraph of yours is clear evidence that you don't know enough about screen printing to be qualified to determine what is and what isn't "very analogous" to it. Specifically, you don't seem to understand how a screen for screen printing is "burned" in the first place.It all boils down to transferring a design using photosensitive chemical coatings. When "burning" a screen, you're transferring the design to a photosensitive coating which has been applied to a screen. When etching a PCB and when applying the solder mask, you're transferring the design to a photosensitive coating which has been applied to a PCB.The design transfer is done by drawing or printing the design in black onto a transparent or translucent sheet of paper or plastic, placing it over the coated screen or PCB, exposing it to ultraviolet light, which cures the exposed coating and leaves the parts of the coating that were blocked by the design printed on the transparency, uncured. The uncured coating can then be washed away, leaving a copy of the design cut out of the coating (or in the case of etching, cut out of the copper).And of course, when doing the silkscreen layer on a PCB, that actually is 100% screen printing, which is also known as silkscreen printing, which is a holdover term from when screens were made from silk fibers.QuoteExactly. As I said, you didn't draw the logo, which means you missed the point entirely. The logo was drawn by someone else in a real vector graphics program, i.e., one which has a bezier pen tool, most likely Adobe Illustrator, CorelDraw, or Inkscape.QuoteFalse. You simply can't follow instructions.QuoteGood grief. When you export a vector file from Illustrator or a similar vector graphics program, which has bezier curves in it, to DXF, the curves get converted to straight lines which roughly approximate the path of the original curves. That's because DXF, like Gerber, doesn't support vector bezier curves.QuoteGood grief (again). So you're going to laminate the foil right over the pads/vias, are you? That will make soldering fun. With screen printing, you can have the full-color printbethe solder mask layer, which means you can include all of the cut-outs for the pads/vias so you don't print over them. How do you plan to do that with a piece of laser-printed foil? It could work if you're using a CNC machine to drill the solder mask off the pads/vias (which could drill away any foil covering the solder mask at the same time), like was shown in a video someone posted earlier, but it won't work with traditional PCB making processes, unless you want to scrape away a bunch of foil by hand after you apply it.Quote(lol) Screen printing is used for tons of things, because it is still the most cost effective method for large print runs of T-shirts and anything else that is typically screen printed. It is also the most versatile printing process in existence; i.e., it can work with a wide variety of substrates and "inks" (which aren't always ink), and shapes, while digital printing processes are far more limited in those areas. Screen printing is going nowhere any time soon.Quote(lol, again). Direct-to-garment (DTG) inkjet printers are only used for small runs of T-shirts, because they are very slow and the ink is very expensive. If you order a one-off T-shirt from e.g., CafePress.com, it will be DTG-printed (and the quality and durability of the print sucks, by the way, compared to a real screen printed T-shirt, printed with industry-standard plastisol inks). Some of those one-off DTG sites offer screen printing for large orders, for reasons which are obvious to anyone who actually knows what they're talking about.Quote^^^ Comical ultracrepidarianism at its finest.QuoteUltracrepidarian Alert: Part XVII

author: kcbanner
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 29, 2016, 03:15:54 am
content: Please find attached the Coca Cola logo as reproduced in DIPTrace. Clearly it is possible to achieve an accurate approximation of bezier curves with these tools.Seriously though, look at this:https://people-mozilla.org/~jmuizelaar/Riskus354.pdf. They approximate bezier curves with arcs and achieve 0.00001mm tolerance with 28 arcs. 0.01mm tolerance with 3 arcs. These are just examples, please read the paper. If you aren't happy that you can do this in current tools, I'm sure KiCad would love a patch that implements the presented algorithm!

author: helius
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 29, 2016, 03:57:48 am
content: Quote from: kcbanner on December 29, 2016, 03:15:54 amIs sarcasm really the best way to soften up your audience?QuoteI read the paper, and it says:Quoteso I'm going to delete it. Authors who can't be bothered to do the most perfunctory fact checking aren't trustworthy.

author: timb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 29, 2016, 10:37:35 am
content: Quote from: kcbanner on December 29, 2016, 03:15:54 amBezier smezier! Who needs 'em when you've got that kind of perfection!

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 29, 2016, 12:17:06 pm
content: I think Big Gun needs to look up Vincent's history, perhaps an hour or three of listening to him ( one of my favourite Amp Hours for sure) talk will help.http://theamphour.com/169-an-interview-with-vincent-himpe-escaped-electron-elocution/It gives a little background.

author: brabus
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 29, 2016, 12:55:35 pm
content: Thanks guys, this thread is so "Web 1.0", I felt like it's 1999 again!

author: brabus
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 29, 2016, 01:39:38 pm
content: Now, let me get to the point of MaximRecoil, if I got it right:"Making PCBs at home is better than having them made professionally, because you can have strong rivets, curved lines and colored silkscreen".Is this the whole point of this grotesque topic?Well, if that is the point, we are talking about two completely different products.

author: slicendice
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 29, 2016, 02:03:54 pm
content: Quote from: brabus on December 29, 2016, 01:39:38 pmAgreed, and we have been way off topic here. No one here has properly defined what "better" is except for the rivets part where some loose wires are soldered to them and they are stronger. Well who would put some wires on a PCB without protecting them from vibrating or being accidentally pulled off the PCB? Makes no sense to me. Please, someone explain if I'm missing something here. :-)Edit: re-read the posts and was way off regarding the rivets...ignore my comment regarding those.

author: cgroen
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 29, 2016, 04:52:30 pm
content: Maxim,I really feel sorry for you, I have known a few guys over the years that argue like you do, there has always been some sad story behind these people.I hope you one day get down from that almighty chair of yours

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 29, 2016, 06:51:27 pm
content: Quote from: MaximRecoil on December 29, 2016, 12:41:46 amyour non sequitur is non sequitured. i carped the snot of the diem. Ixnay on the ooplay and other pig latin.QuoteNo i didn;t . i was watching fawlty towers. You sir, are Manuel ...Quotenot to me it isn't . and not to most other people out there. we use surface mounted parts these days with 1.27mm and finer pitches. And we have boards made in china for cheap. without rivets.Quotebwahahaaa. i have 12 different soldering stations including a BGA station. i can put down a 1500 ball 0.8mm pitch first time right. standing on one leg , one arm tied behind my back and one eye closed.you don't know what turret rivets are. they are pressed in from the top and the bottom is split using a claw. it is not fully rolled over like a true rivet. phenolic paper pcb is very flimsy. it is just that. paper impregnated with phenolic resin. you can tear such boards by hand. easily.this is what i am talking about :https://www.buerklin.com/de/rohrniete/p/18h660the germans call those 'rohrnieten'. the machine that shoots them splits the non fluted end and presses it in the board. they guarantee contact because they are soldered on both sides afterwards.often these were installed on the capacitor pins and then the capacitor with the rivets was shot in the board. they could not solder 'under' the capacitor so they had to trust on the wave soldering machine to solder the bottom down. the top , because it is fluted, made contact to the copper on the top of the pcb.QuoteNo it is not. it is a different mechanism.QuoteThe penny is held to the resin by the electrostatic forces between. it is a purely mechanical process. (Van Der Waals forces, named after the physicist that discovered how they work).the roughness of the metal allows the resin to get into the material. there is no absorption. so there is no 'glue'. Glue is defined as a material that bonds two different materials together. there remains a layer of glue. the cohesive forces in the glue prevent the glue from falling apart. if i 'glue' leather to wood there remains 'glue'. if i just put leather on wood it will not 'stick' becasue neither the leather nor the wood can diffuse into each other.The resin does diffuse into the copper. hmm diffuse may be the wrong word ... it seeps in the small cracks and solidifies. it is a purely mechanical process . in your terms : a rivet.Quotego read up on how glue works . you may learn something... not semantics.Quoteof course something that is thinner will be weaker . -eyeroll- Captain Obvious ...QuoteBECAUSE NOBODY USES IT TO MAKE PCB's !got it now ? there is not a single hobbyists that makes boards in his garage that uses screen printing. Why ? because you simply get photosensitive board, sunlight and a drawing on a transparency. done.To make the screen for printing you need a transparency , expose the screen to uv light via the drawing to cure the resin. then you need to develop the screen in a chemical and wash it. then you put int in the printing press. then you apply ink , then you need to align the screen to the board , then you squeegee the ink through the screen , take the screen off , let the ink dry ( or in case of photo ink : cure it ).these are all extra steps that are not needed. expose the board directly to the artwork , develop etch. No screens, No frames, No ink No squeegee No press No curing or dryning.All that screen printing is doing is adding extra steps to the process. the process of transferring artwork to the copper.regular process : Have artwork, buy copper with a photolayer on it. put artwork on board (step 1). turn on light (step 2) turn off light (step 3). develop (step 4)wash (step 5) etch -done-Your process : buy screen material, put in frame and properly tension (step 1), put artwork on (step 2). light on (step 3)light off (step 4), develop (step 5), wash (step 6), dry (step 7), put in press (step, put board in press (step 9), put on ink (step 10), squegee ink (step 11), remove screen (step 12), dry or cure ink (step 13). now etch.Do you understand it now why nobody uses screen printing ? it is too much steps , takes too much equipment. i can etch and develop a board in an empty glass jar and use sunlight as my light source. you need a truckload of stuff. for the same end result.Quotethen why are you blabbering about making color screenprinting on PCB ? Mr Spock would have a field day in illogical behavior...Quotefor me screen printing is the stone age version of an inkjet. you need all kinds of foils, stencils , inks. screen printing is squirting ink through tiny holes onto a target. exactly what an inkjet machine does.Quotebwahahahaa 'burned' lol. and yes, i have made screens for screen printing. i have a techshop membership and have done the screen printing course. made my own t-shirt.QuotePCB programs are vector programs. Gerber is a vector format. Bezier curves are NOT vectors ! Bezier curves are a mathematical equation that can be converted into a sequence of vectors. The definition of a vector is : a STRAIGHT that connects two points. if anything, a curve is NOT a vector... a curve can be approximated by subdividing it in very small chunks that, each are vectors. The moment your curve is spat out onto paper by a laserprinter or inkjet or plotter it is converted into a sequence of vectors or rasterised (which are point vectors)Quotewhat's that sound ? it is the deafening sound made cause all mathematicians in the world are collectively gasping .. vector curves .... useless.

author: helius
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 29, 2016, 07:14:54 pm
content: The math definition of a vector is a column or row of a matrix: a linear tuple of the underlying domain. It is definitelynota line between two points.Take Newton's second law, \$ \mathbf F = m \cdot \mathbf a \$Where is the second point of the vectorF? For that matter, where is the first point?They don't exist, because that vector represents direction and magnitude, only. Similarly for the basis vectors of the quaterinions, \$ \hat i \quad \hat j \quad \hat k \$In other applications, it may be more useful for a vector to representa single pointrelative to some origin. If several points are linearly interpolated, you get a graph connected by straight lines; but linear interpolation has nothing to do with vectors. The points can be interpolated by arcs or cubic curves without changing the vector representation at all. What is fundamental to vector graphics is that all affine transformations can be performed without loss of precision, something that is not possible with rasters.

author: slicendice
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 29, 2016, 08:09:27 pm
content: Yes I agree with free_electron until the vector part and with helius for the vector part.We are way off topic though. So why not switch to talking about the definition of a good PCB?What characteristics does a good PCB have?Does bezier curves and full color handmade silk screen print with a bunch of rivets, make it superior to a PCB with none of those? What about conductive traces? Should it have those too, or does it not matter, as long as all the other stuff is there?There are multiple ways of making a PCB and each step can have multiple methods. I think the best PCB is the one that does the job as it's designed. Were it made at home or in a factory should not matter at all. And NO, a handmade PCB is most likely NOT better (quality) than a PCB made with a series of automated equipment that are tweaked to near perfection.This is getting really ridiculous in my opinion, and I'm certain most of the contributors to this thread agree with me.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 29, 2016, 08:38:11 pm
content: Quote from: helius on December 29, 2016, 07:14:54 pmI had tolook it up... My brain is really getting rusty...In any case, this thread is getting weirder and weirder... The original discussion is really getting lost under the noise.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 29, 2016, 08:39:00 pm
content: Quote from: rsjsouza on December 29, 2016, 08:38:11 pmThe original discussion was the noise

author: bpiphany
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 29, 2016, 08:47:29 pm
content: Isn't it just so that an image is sloppily calledvectorizedif it is described by parametrized curves, rather than in a rasterized grid form? The curve is described by the x,y-coordinates (vector, sloppily or not depending on definition) that is traversed by the parametrization.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 29, 2016, 08:48:24 pm
content: Quote from: ataradov on December 29, 2016, 08:39:00 pm

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 29, 2016, 09:20:27 pm
content: Quote from: hamster_nz on December 29, 2016, 09:17:57 pmBut the reason CAD packages don't let you use them on copper layers is that ensuring DRC rules becomes a nightmare. And not having Bezier curves was not a big deal for basically every single board ever created

author: MaximRecoil
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2016, 02:36:54 am
content: Quote from: free_electron on December 29, 2016, 06:51:27 pmYournon sequituris dismissed.QuoteYes, you did. You quoted something that no one said in this thread, thus you replied to the wrong thread.QuoteIt's irrelevant to this thread.QuoteI'll repeat: You either don't know what you're doing when it comes to desoldering, or you don't have the right tools. You established this when you told of your desoldering difficulties in your previous post.QuoteIt doesn't matter. If you knew how to desolder properly, the capacitor leg wouldn't be stuck to the rivet, thus the rivet wouldn't come out with the capacitor leg. It is telling though, that you told an anecdote about an admittedly flimsy setup, in an effort to discount rivets in general.QuoteUtterly false.QuoteThe same thing applies to any glue/adhesive that's used on metal. Your semantic games remain dismissed.QuoteAnd they still remain dismissed.QuoteYour concession on that matter is noted. And of course it's obvious; so why are you and others in this thread arguing about rivets being stronger than plating? For that matter, everything I've claimed in this thread is obviously true, from the perspective of anyone who knows what they are talking about. The arguments are coming strictly from ultracrepidarians such as yourself.QuoteIn reality, nearly everyone who makes PCBs at home uses processes which are fundamentally the same as the modern method of preparing a screen for screen printing. The only people who don't are the ones who substitute a CNC machine for traditional photosensitive processes. Because many or most of them don't realize that what they are doing is fundamentally the same thing as preparing a screen for screen printing, we get ignorance-fueled comments about screen printing, as seen from you and others in this thread.Quote(lol) You unwittingly just described a basic process for preparing a screen for screen printing. All you have to do is substitute the word "screen" for "board" and there you have it. "Got it now?"QuoteThere is no resin. The screen is coated with a liquid photosensitive emulsion and allowed to air dry in a dark room. Or, you can use premade sheets of already-dry emulsion, which is quicker and easier, and the best examples of these give higher quality results than most manually-coated screens (unless manually coated by an expert).QuoteSay what? This is utter nonsense. After you expose the emulsion-coated screen to UV, you simply rinse it with water. The emulsion that wasn't exposed to UV due to being blocked by the drawing/print on the transparency, is simply washed away. Until being cured by UV, the emulsion is 100% water soluble.QuoteThose added steps are for if you actually want to print something, which you do when it comes to the "silkscreen" layer, and, optionally, the solder mask layer (especially if you want to use a multi- or full-color print for solder mask). As I said in the first place, making a PCB at home either is screen printing or is very analogous to it, which is a fact. You unwittingly disagreed with that, because you're an ultracrepidarian:1. Copper etching = very analogous to screen printing (specifically, very analogous to preparing a screen for screen printing).2. Solder mask = very analogous to, or equal to, screen printing, depending on how you want to do it.3. Silkscreen = screen printing (AKA: silkscreen printing), obviously.Is that clear?QuoteAgain, you don't know what you're talking about. I wouldn't actually be printing through a screen for the copper etching part. I would be doing it the same way anyone else does it (though, being a screen printer, I have better tools for the UV exposure part than the average person does), which is a process that is very analogous to preparing a screen for screen printing.QuoteNo. See above. And that process you falsely attributed to me doesn't even make sense. For starters, very few people actually build their own screens these days; most people buy them prebuilt, i.e., with the mesh already tensioned/attached to the frame. Second, why would I be using a screen or ink at all for the copper etching process?QuoteI understand that you're a laughably confused ultracrepidarian. See above.QuoteYournon sequituris dismissed, and this is another Comical Irony Alert too.QuoteThat's because you know next to nothing about it, as you've thoroughly proven above. An inkjet printer isn't even remotely as versatile as screen printing is, nor is it particularly suited to high speed, high quality production. Inkjet printers can print relatively fast, but only in a low-quality mode. At maximum quality, they are very slow, and their quality still ends up being crap on certain substrates, such as fabrics.QuoteFoils and stencils? What are you talking about? A stencil is created when you "burn" a screen, but its "burned" into the emulsion which has been coated onto the screen mesh; it isn't a separate thing. Separate stencils made of e.g., paper, can be used, which is how screen printing was originally done, but since the invention of the photosensitive emulsion process over 100 years ago, separate stencils aren't typically used. And no, it isn't exactly what an inkjet printer does. In the most basic form of screen printing (blank screen with separate stencils), the screen mesh's only function is to control the flow of ink, i.e., higher mesh-counts = less ink flow, lower mesh-counts = more ink flow. With modern screen printing (photosensitive emulsion), the screen mesh has a secondary function of being the structure to which the emulsion is attached.Unlike with inkjet, with screen printing, the boundaries of the design you are printing are forced by the edges of the stencil, which results in sharply delineated edges. Inkjet has nothing to physically restrict the boundaries of the print, so it has to rely on precision and high resolution capabilities. This works well on certain substrates, but it's not so good on e.g., a T-shirt. Here's a closeup of a T-shirt printed with a DTG inkjet printer, from Zazzle.com:The edges of the print are fuzzy as hell, not to mention the poor opacity of the white ink.By contrast, here's a closeup of a screen print I did a long time ago:QuoteYes, "burned" is what it's typically called.QuoteGiven the ridiculous errors you made above when attempting to describe the process (such as the alleged use of "resin" and "developing the screen in a chemical", and your failure to understand how screen printing processes are very analogous to or the same as PCB making processes, consider your assertion here noted as "highly dubious". I'd love to see you attempt to reclaim a screen coated with resin by the way,curedresin no less (lol).QuoteThis is anon sequitur. Consider it dismissed out of hand.QuoteYes, "vector bezier curves", as in, a mathematical representation of abezier curvewhich is contained in avectorfile, as opposed to a pixels-on-a-grid representation of a bezier curve (raster). When you export an .AI file to .DXF, curves get converted into a series of straight lines rather than remaining as a mathematical representation of curves. I've already posted a screen shot of what that looks like, and here it is again:It looks like crap because there aren't enough straight lines used for a given distance, to represent the curves. If DXF and Gerber supported vector bezier curves (see above to find out what that bit of common-speak means), then it could remain as a vector bezier curve until the output stage, at which point it would be rasterized, and the rasterization can be at any DPI that the output device is capable of, and with a high enough DPI, they will appear to be smooth curves to the naked eye.Also, your tacit concession on the matter of your laser-printed foil idea, which you conveniently "forgot" to address, is noted.

author: MaximRecoil
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2016, 03:31:55 am
content: Quote from: slicendice on December 29, 2016, 08:09:27 pmOut of all of the prior errors he made, and which you admittedly agree with him on, this one was my favorite:QuoteSince you agree with him, you should be able to elaborate on the "cure the resin" and "then you need to develop the screen in a chemical" parts. Both of those things are of course, pure nonsense, but since you believe that you know better, I'd like to hear what you have to say about it. Please include things like a link to where you can buy this "resin" that's intended to be coated onto a screen and cured, and a link to this mystery chemical that you use to "develop the screen", as well as an explanation of what "develop the screen" even means.I'd also like to know how to reclaim a screen that's been stuffed full of resin which is then cured, given that coating a screen with resin and curing it will turn your screen into a rugged fiber-reinforced composite material that's impervious to most any chemical you could throw at it. Any chemical that could dissolve cured resin probably wouldn't be too friendly to the polyester mesh itself.

author: ehughes
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2016, 04:40:56 am
content: Good luck with those rivets!I think I'll let someone else with controlled processes drill and plate a .012" hole as well as apply an LPI mask and legend. I am pretty sure it will always yeild a better result than investing in equipment for home.

author: slicendice
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2016, 08:33:00 am
content: Yes, preparing a PCB for etching and preparing a silk screen (in it's original meaning/terms) is essentially the same process. Chemicals may vary but essentially all the steps are the same. But why do we keep fighting over such things? Who cares? (well those who just want to be right and ignores the original topic of this thread of course :-) )And those darn Bezier curves...will the electrons fall off the PCB if I don't use complex equations to smooth the traces indefinitely? Com'on guys.

author: rx8pilot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2016, 08:56:16 am
content: As a (nearly former) machinist, we use lines and arc to make incredibly complex 3D geometry for 5 axis milling. It is not a limitation even for cosmetically sensitive designs.A PCBs primary function is to mount components and move the signals around. Artistic curves don't make a better PCB.Rivets can loosen over time. The FR4 will likely expand and contract much more than the brass. It may not fall out, but provide a less than perfect signal transfer. Either way, I have researched just about every possible way to make PCBs at home and every time I cannot see it being anything more than an interesting experience. The majority of what I design is 4 or more layers which is an immediate disqualification for home brew PCB.Sent from my horrible mobile....

author: slicendice
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2016, 09:10:03 am
content: Quote from: rx8pilot on December 30, 2016, 08:56:16 amNow we're talking! Nice!

author: bpiphany
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2016, 09:46:49 am
content: Quote from: MaximRecoil on December 30, 2016, 02:36:54 amWhy are you using such a crappy tool that isn't capable of approximating your curves with enough line segments, or even arcs for that matter.Also see:https://www.boldport.com/blog

author: MaximRecoil
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2016, 02:00:02 pm
content: Quote from: bpiphany on December 30, 2016, 09:46:49 amYour question is meaningless without pointing out a tool that can convert an .AI file to .DXF, and is "capable of approximating  curves with enough line segments, or even arcs for that matter."Quote from: rx8pilot on December 30, 2016, 08:56:16 amCan you draw the Coca-Cola script logo using only lines and arcs?QuoteThe following post seems to be at odds with your theory:Quote from: SeanB on December 22, 2016, 11:40:49 am

author: Codemonkey
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2016, 02:23:08 pm
content: Quote from: MaximRecoil on December 30, 2016, 02:00:02 pmWhat is your obsession with the coca cola logo ?Any half decent PCB software can just import a bitmap containing any logo you want, including the coca cola one. And yes, you can draw the script using lines and arcs, just lots and lots of very small ones. It's really no big deal.

author: slicendice
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2016, 02:25:49 pm
content: Seriously...do I have to code a simple program that can approximate any shape using lines and arcs only, before this nonsense ends? Only limiting factor would be the physical properties of an atom when applying that data to a real object. Is that accurate enough?Actually, never mind, it's a complete waste of time.@MaximRecoil, what is your point of this thread? To pick a fight or to have a decent conversion about what makes up a good PCB, including reasons why the home made PCB is/can be better than a manufacturer makes?An infinitely accurate Coca Cola logo on a PCB does not make that particular PCB any better, that's for sure, and anyone could do it.

author: slicendice
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2016, 02:27:19 pm
content: @CodemonkeyExactly!!!

author: Arjan Emm
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2016, 02:48:45 pm
content: I do have to say you really carefully choose your forum name. Any reply to your comments produces maximum recoil from you. Recoil is usually an undesirable reaction from a desirable action.

author: MaximRecoil
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2016, 05:21:38 pm
content: Quote from: Codemonkey on December 30, 2016, 02:23:08 pmIs that a joke, or can you truly not figure that out for yourself? It is an example of a design containing bezier curves that everyone is familiar with.QuoteThis kludge of a workaround has already been discussed.QuoteNot a big deal? How about you give that idea a try and post the results?Quote from: slicendice on December 30, 2016, 02:25:49 pmDo it. You might find it isn't as simple as you suppose. Adobe Illustrator can't even export an .AI to .DXF that's particularly compatible with other programs. AutoCAD can usually open and display them correctly, but often runs into issues when extruding to 3D. DipTrace doesn't like them at all; they just show up as random garbage. But maybe you can do better.QuoteIt's a waste of time to write a better AI-to-DXF program than what's already out there? pdf2cad is the best one I've ever used; it at least can convert to polylines and its resulting DXF files don't seem to have any compatibility issues in other programs. However, it still gives a crude straight-line representation of curves. But you could do better, if it weren't a "complete waste of time", right?QuoteAh, you're a revisionist. I haven't picked any "fights" (arguments). The person who "picks a fight" (starts an argument) is the person who first disputes something that has been said. That came in reply #1, and again in reply #2, and again in reply #3, and so on.QuoteUnlimited drawing functionality is better than limited drawing functionality.QuoteDo it. By the way, I'd be willing to wager a few bucks that you couldn't manually draw an acceptably accurate Coca-Cola logo even in a program which has the right tools for the job, such as Adobe Illustrator. I'd feel confident making that bet because I know there's no easy way for you to cheat, i.e., none of the Coca-Cola logo vector files available for download on the internet are any good when examined closely. The same applies to most free vector files out there.Quote from: Arjan Emm on December 30, 2016, 02:48:45 pm"Maximum"? Where are you seeing that? Is there something wrong with your monitor? The name "Maxim" has no relation to the adjective "maximum", aside from a coincidentally shared sequence of five letters. My username refers to a guy who was from my hometown, by the name of HiramMaxim, who invented the machine gun, which wasrecoil-operated.

author: Arjan Emm
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2016, 05:42:13 pm
content: Quote from: Arjan Emm on Today at 01:48:45 AMI do have to say you really carefully choose your forum name. Any reply to your comments produces maximum recoil from you. Recoil is usually an undesirable reaction from a desirable action."Maximum"? Where are you seeing that? Is there something wrong with your monitor? The name "Maxim" has no relation to the adjective "maximum", aside from a coincidentally shared sequence of five letters. My username refers to a guy who was from my hometown, by the name of Hiram Maxim, who invented the machine gun, which was recoil-operated.« Last Edit: Today at 04:23:57 AM by MaximRecoil »I rest my case.

author: Codemonkey
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2016, 05:57:47 pm
content: I've been designing PCB's on & off professionally for about 27 years now.I've designed countless PCB's that have been put into production.I've never once needed to draw a perfect bezier curve.Go ahead and spend ages pissing about trying to produce your perfect bezier curves on your pretty board with its photorealistic silksceen and silly rivets. Now, get it produced in 10K+ volumes reliably for less than the cost of a perfectly functional board from even the shitest chinese sweatshop. Good luck with that.Then stick your mega expensive pretty PCB in a box where it can't be seen anyway!Your argument is utterly pointless.What a numpty

author: MaximRecoil
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2016, 01:50:40 am
content: Quote from: Arjan Emm on December 30, 2016, 05:42:13 pmYour resignation is accepted.Quote from: Codemonkey on December 30, 2016, 05:57:47 pmThanks for the anecdote. It is irrelevant though.Quote^^^ Yet another person who has replied to a thread that he apparently didn't read. As I've said several times, I have no intention of making a PCB of any kind, for any reason, at home. In any case, it wouldn't take "ages" for me to do it, nor would there be any "pissing about", because I know exactly how to produce perfect bezier curves, a photorealistic screen print, and install rivets.QuoteBecause stronger is "silly", right? Once again:Quote from: SeanB on December 22, 2016, 11:40:49 amSamsung and LG; they're just so "silly".QuoteWhat do "10K+ volumes" have to do with making PCBs at home? Nothing, that's what.QuoteThere's nothing expensive about making a PCB the way I described if you already have the tools you need, let alone "mega" expensive. The rivets are perhaps the most expensive part (depending on how many of them you need to use), and those are about 3 cents each fromhere, and perhaps cheaper elsewhere.QuoteHow do you know where the PCB will be mounted? A lot of people who do electronics projects at home use clear enclosures so that the internals can be seen.QuoteGiven all of your false premises above, your conclusion based on them is inherently invalid, and can legitimately be dismissed out of hand.QuoteSo says the fellow who just made a slew of false, irrelevant, and otherwise invalid statements.

author: Richard Crowley
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2016, 02:08:49 am
content: Nominated for Stupidest Thread of the Year for 2016.

author: Codemonkey
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2016, 09:51:36 am
content: Quote from: MaximRecoil on December 31, 2016, 01:50:40 amOne again, bezier curves - totally not needed on a PCB.Photorealistic screen print - totally not needed by anyone ever on a PCB.Rivets - installed tediously one by one rather than electroplate the whole lot at once.Quote from: MaximRecoil on December 31, 2016, 01:50:40 amYou're the one claiming to be able to produce better PCB's at home than a factory. Factory's produce billions of PCB's per year reliably incredibly cheaply. Have you ever produced a single PCB ? If so, go on, lets all see your better than a factory can do PCB ? (despite claiming above you never even intend ever producing even a single one at home).Quote from: MaximRecoil on December 31, 2016, 01:50:40 amAttached is a photo of a simple PCB I knocked up for a home project. On it there are 182 plated through holes and only one through hole component. By far, the majority of holes are used stitch ground planes together to improve the EMC performance of the PCB itself since the board has an on board 2.4GHz radio. Cost of using rivets using your figures: ~$5.46, not including labour time to fit them, per PCB. I got 10 boards made in China, shipped half way round the world to the UK for about $20. I've populated 3 so far, all work perfectly.The NXP RF module in the middle (which is only about the size of the end of my thumb), has well over 100 plated through holes, just in the bit of board you can see that isn't covered by the screening can, all in an area less than the size of my thumb nail. Again, no through hole components, so strength isn't an issue, but they didn't just put them all there for a bit of a laugh.They all serve a purpose to form a good RF conduit from the IC under the can to the antenna on the end (that track with loads of vias either side is I believe what is known as coplanar waveguide), and to stop bits of the ground plane acting as antenna's and radiating any unwanted harmonics.I can buy those modules from Farnell in the UK for £6.63 each (~$8.19) in one offs. If using your method, the cost of the rivets alone would be $3, plus then there is the cost of the rest of the bare PCB (looks to be 4 layers) including loads of time (time = money) to fit the many many individual rivets, the IC, passives, crystal and the screening can that they all sit under, plus placing them, soldering them, testing the finished module, packaging them in tape & reel format, and shipping them half way round the world to the UK (according to the page on the Farnell website, they're made in the far east). I doubt very much that your "better" method would allow them to be so cheap whilst still allowing both NXP and Farnell to be able to make a profit on them.How would your proposed "better than a factory can make" method cope with this ? You wouldn't even be able to produce a single board at home that could perform as well as the one that the module uses.Quote from: MaximRecoil on December 31, 2016, 01:50:40 amSays the muppet who defines a better PCB to be one containing utterly pointless bezier curves and photorealistic silk screens.Have you ever designed and produced even a single PCB ? You're the one that started the thread by making dumbest claim of the year!I've yet to see any one of the many industry professionals, or even hobbyists that have posted in this thread agree with you.Do jog on...

author: slicendice
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2016, 10:14:37 am
content: @CodemonkeyThat's one really good looking PCB! Not the best of soldering results for the tricky and tiny surface mount components, but if it works, then great.I could not do it any better, probably would look a lot worse than yours.Great job!

author: Codemonkey
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2016, 10:23:36 am
content: Lol, thanks. I used a cheap paste stencil fromhttps://www.smtstencil.co.uk, hand placed the components and reflowed the board in a toaster oven with a DIY temperature controller.The dodgy soldering is just where i've tacked on test points and changed things (this was the first board to get populated so its had scopes and logic analyser hanging off it while I did software development).How it ever worked without any magic bezier curves though is a complete mystery

author: slicendice
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2016, 11:15:27 am
content: Quote from: Codemonkey on December 31, 2016, 10:23:36 amYeah, amazing, one would think the electrons would fall off the sharp edges. You must have magic electrons in your coin cell battery.

author: MaximRecoil
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2016, 05:22:37 pm
content: Quote from: Codemonkey on December 31, 2016, 09:51:36 amI never said anything about "need" (as I've pointed out multiple times already), and tedium is irrelevant. As such, this is anon sequiturfrom you; consider it dismissed as such.QuoteThis red herring from you = your tacit agreement that "10K+ volumes" has nothing to do with making PCBs at home.Quote$5.46 added to the cost is not expensive, much less "mega expensive". If I were to make a PCB at home, I'd only be making one example of any given design.QuoteI never said "better than a factorycanmake", and this isn't the first time I've pointed out that I never said that. Second, I've said more than once "within certain limitations". It doesn't matter how many examples you give of specific PCB designs that aren't particularly suited to making at home, because there are literally an unlimited number of designs whicharesuited to making at home, both designs which have already been conceived and designs which are yet to be conceived.QuoteComical Irony Alert, and Monkey See, Monkey Do.QuoteGiven that you conveniently "forgot" to include stronger through-holes / vias, this is a straw man from you. And yes, less limitations for a given design is better than more limitations.QuoteYes, one, but the other PCBs I've drawn up weren't my design, they were reproductions of old PCBs, and I've run into an annoying limitation of PCB design software, i.e., no way to natively draw a bezier curve to replicate the curvy traces that were common with old hand-drawn PCBs.QuoteNo, and I have no intentions of doing so. This is yet another thing I've already said multiple times, and at this point it is safe to say that you don't read so well.QuoteYou just tacitly (and unwittingly) claimed that you and every other naysayer who has posted on this thread is an idiot, given that none of you have been able to refute the alleged "dumbest claim of the year".QuoteFacts aren't up for a vote. In fact, they aren't even debatable, but don't let that stop you from trying. The fact that nearly everything you have posted is anon sequitur, with a good portion of thosenon sequitursbeing attributable to a reading comprehension failure, makes you particularly easy to argue with.

author: G0HZU
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2016, 08:05:15 pm
content: A good PCB manufacturer will manufacture a PCB to YOUR requirements/specs.If you need thick copper weight (eg 4 oz) to improve current handling and connector reliability they can often do this for you. Presumably you can order PCBs with rivets if you like?Or maybe you think those Samsung and LG TVs used 'homemade' PCBs to get them to feature strengthening rivets in their TVs?A suitable PCB factory will make the board to your requirements. If you deliberately ask them to make a board that doesn't meet the requirements for strength/thermal/current rating or you send them crude drawings rather than fine resolution drawings for the artworks then who is at fault here?You might as well argue that if you send the PCB factory an old issue of artwork (that doesn't have all the required reliability features on it or the latest resolution) then you can do a better job at home if you make it to the latest issue.

author: G0HZU
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2016, 08:12:01 pm
content: The Bezier curve argument is just as silly. You might as well argue that the PCB factory can't replicate an 'arty' PCB that shows your palm print dipped in liquid and slapped on a PCB complete with random splashes and various other arty anomalies. They can't replicate your etching anomalies either and reproduce the true 'art' of the homemade original. But who cares?

author: mrpackethead
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2016, 09:49:51 pm
content: QuoteThen how did Donaldn Trump get elected? I'm going to assume Mr Recoil ( its not a fact, just an assumption ) that you are resonably intellgent. Perhaps a very High IQ. However, your showing an exceptionally low EQ, which is the ability to deal with people. Your ability to make a difference for good in this world is a combination of both.Your net worth to the world could be massively increased, if you just took a little time to figure out how people are perceiving you.

author: slicendice
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2016, 10:23:00 pm
content: Happy new year to everybody in this thread too...!

author: timb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2016, 10:47:46 pm
content: Quote from: slicendice on December 31, 2016, 10:23:00 pmYour non-sequitur is dismissed outright!

author: mrpackethead
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2016, 11:09:31 pm
content: Quote from: timb on December 31, 2016, 10:47:46 pmYour non-non-sequitur is accepted.

author: Alex Eisenhut
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2016, 11:13:08 pm
content: Curvy enough?

author: MaximRecoil
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 01, 2017, 01:35:12 am
content: Quote from: G0HZU on December 31, 2016, 08:05:15 pmThis isn't about what they technicallycando, it is about what they typically do. I've pointed this out before, more than once. Also, at home you can use 100% analog processes to make a PCB (which produces the smoothest possible angled lines and curves), which includes a real screen print. Name a PCB factory that will do it that way.Quote from: G0HZU on December 31, 2016, 08:12:01 pmFalse. Traces drawn with bezier curves isn't some random, off-the-wall thing; many old PCBs had them. The same goes for rivets and a real screen print. Granted, the real screen print was usually 1-color, but multi-color screen printing is a natural extension of that.

author: ovnr
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 01, 2017, 02:29:41 am
content: I'm not entirely sure what's up with your fetish for bezier curves. Yes, old PCBs had them because old PCBs were hand-drawn. They didn't hand-draw the PCBs because it was better, but because it was what they had back then. Having perfectly smooth lines does not make the PCB better; if it did, the industry would have offered it years ago!Rivets? Same deal. If they could've done plated vias back in the day, they would damn well have. And there are plenty of screen-printed PCBs today. And if I hear "multi-color prints" related to PCBs, I'm just going to think you're off your rocker.I'm also not entirely sure how you can conclude that riveted vias are "better" - and contrary to your delusions, just stating so does not in fact make it a fact. Yes, they may have better mechanical strength, but they will be more prone to thermal cycling stress. They're also massively larger than plated vias, and utterly impractical to use in large quantities. In addition, you cannot place them underneath modern packages.All I'm seeing is "Maybe better in an unlikely scenario, and worse in all other ways". Yet you conclude they're better, and that it is an incontrovertible fact.Still waiting for that guide on the ignore list, btw.

author: helius
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 01, 2017, 02:53:29 am
content: I don't think it's true that PCBs were ever designed with cubic curves (which by definition would require a computer to calculate their slope). They were drawn by hand on film, with ink. These freehand shapes are not "Bezier" at all. You might as well argue that ancient Babylonians were using "Bezier" to draw cuneiformThere do exist, today, PCB tools that use arcs intensively to make denser interconnections (Topor is an example). Arcs have always been a part of Gerber format, derived from its ancestor G-Code and CNC machines. In principle, cubic curves can be estimated to a high degree of accuracy with arcs. The problem is that Gerber is capable of stroked paths only, not filled paths, because it controls a photoplotter. A curved shape that uses fills is much harder to represent using stroked paths. You need to submit PCBs in IPC-2581, not Gerber, to produce such shapes.

author: djnz
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 01, 2017, 06:52:03 am
content: I lack the skill and equipment to make PCBs of home of the same quality as many factories can. I suspect this is true for many others as well.

author: bpiphany
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 01, 2017, 09:40:22 am
content: Quote from: helius on January 01, 2017, 02:53:29 amTheregion modeis the preferred way to do filled shapes, at least since RS-274X. I believe arcs are permitted within this mode as well. At least gerbv seem to handle them.Code:%FSLAX21Y21*%%MOMM*%%LPD*%%ADD10C,1.000000*%D10*X100Y100D02G75*G02*X200Y200I100J0D01*G01*X200Y100D01*X100Y100D01*G36*X300Y100D02G75*G02*X400Y200I100J0D01*G01*X400Y100D01*X300Y100D01*G37*M02*

author: LukeW
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2017, 07:18:52 pm
content: So, do those rivets come in 10 thou?And are the rivets flat enough to be put under a QFN chip? Or even for BGA escape routing? Didn't think so.How about blind and buried rivets in your 4-layer board? Didn't think so.Hand drilling and riveting at home with 4/4 rules? Or heck, let's be generous and expect reliable 6/6 results.

author: Howardlong
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2017, 11:45:06 pm
content: Quote from: LukeW on January 11, 2017, 07:18:52 pmTo save you the effort, I already answered this as an actual owner of the device buried deep in this thread.https://www.eevblog.com/forum/eda/isn't-it-strange-that-you-can-make-better-pcbs-at-home-than-factories-make/msg1098139/#msg1098139The rivets are OK but only for unit testing. The tool is an expensive, and large, paperweight. One that would keep a certain toupee aficionado's business paperwork under wraps for some years at any rate.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2017, 02:44:12 am
content: Quote from: MaximRecoil on January 01, 2017, 01:35:12 amBut on the other hand you are saying it's not about what you (that is, you personally or 'you' any other home user) typically does but what you could do.Surely, if it's what hobbyists could do it should also be what factories could do.Orif what factoriesdodo then what hobbyists also actually do.

author: slicendice
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2017, 08:05:24 am
content: What factories typically DO DO is a lot better quality than what DIYers typically DO DO! It all comes down to what equipment you use. Surely a $100k device can perform better than any hand or a $1k tool.If you own all the $100k tools needed for making a good PCB then you are not the typical DIYer, you are the factory/PCB manufacturer.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2017, 06:21:41 pm
content: Quote from: MaximRecoil on January 01, 2017, 01:35:12 amI would love to see your evidence that any old PCB was drawn with a Bezier curve. I agree that many old PCBs had curved traces. Often with varying width. But they were generated by hand, not mathematics. I know. I did some, and watched many others. Tools like Rubylith and cameras. No computers involved. I don't know when the first computer generated PCBs were done. I know that my first contact with the technology was in the early 1970s and required large scale computing resources and expensive software that caused large corporations to think heavily before investing. It was the 1980s before it became widespread.I will agree that Beziers are an easy way to duplicate those curves today on a computer, but they aren't the only way, and aren't necessarily the best way.