Wire and trees and me - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / rf-microwave

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2018, 01:19:16 am
content: I am trying to figure out the best way to get a wire antenna(s) high into (trees). I am just not such a good pitcher. I think there are some candidate spots where IF I could just propel it there I could perhaps get it 50 feet up, which is pretty high.Unless I can get antennas higher I am hitting a wall with my HF radio endeavors.How would you proceed? One idea I have thought about that might work is a water and air propelled rocket. (I used to have a toy that did this as a kid, I am sure many of us know what I mean)

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2018, 01:52:25 am
content: If you, or anyone in your family/friends group is a fisherman a fishing pole with a fairly heavy weight works pretty well. Casting fifty feet is pretty easy. Us tyros usually take several tries to get that fifty feet in the right place. Once you get the monofilament fishing line where you want it the drill is pretty standard, pull heavier and heavier lines over until you get one strong enough to suit your purposes.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2018, 02:14:04 am
content: Thats a VERY good idea, thank you! When I was a kid I used to enjoy fishing a lot, I think I could definitely do that.Another alternative would be a fishing rod style telescoping vertical pole I could put up and take down. (a very flexible setup)

author: Alex Eisenhut
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2018, 02:21:32 am
content: Ham operators use a compressed air cannon with a tennis ball.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2018, 02:37:17 am
content: I have a nice air compressor but the idea of pressurizing a PVC pipe device I 'made myself' is kind of scary to me.I figured that would be the best solution but kind of a last resort if I couldn't figure out another way to do it.The trees in my back yard are pretty tall. Maybe 50 feet or perhaps even more.I really need to thin them out. Thats really what I should do. Before the winter and the snow does it for me.I probably need to get a professional tree person in to remove the less healthy looking trees. which would also be a good opportunity to have them attach something at the appropriate height of one of the healthy ones, maybe a rope and pulley and weight. Using their bucket truck or whatever they call it.

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2018, 02:38:22 am
content: https://youtu.be/f4xhfwTtiEU

author: chrisl
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2018, 03:56:38 am
content: Sling shots??https://www.eham.net/reviews/detail/8936

author: tkamiya
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2018, 04:42:34 am
content: One SAFE option is to hire a tree climber. I contacted mine for just climbing and hooking up a rope. Price quoted was $50. For this, a pro will go as high as he can safely go.I chose to do it myself but only as high as my ladder would reach, which is 16 feet. Wire is about 100 feet and the other end is tied to eve of single floor house. I don't transmit (although I have a ham radio license) but receive performance is superb. I am well aware of "higher the better" mantra and I'm very sure it's true. Mine won't compare to a single dipole at 60 feet. But it is more than sufficient for what I need.There are all kinds of gagets. But I'm afraid to use them. What happens if a lead cable jams and the weight at high velocity keeps going? It will snap and it will have to land somewhere. Since I live in a city, this was not an option for me.So I'm going to encourage just trying it with what you can SAFELY reach. Then if you still think you need hight, hire someone. $50 is far cheaper than emergency room visit.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2018, 05:19:10 am
content: Arborist throwing weights:https://www.treestuff.com/store/products.asp?category_id=284Getting an end insulator in the right place will require some ingenuity but some garden hose slid on the end of the wire should suffice. However using a rope as the dead end and trying off near ground level can allow using a proper end strain insulator.For a bit more fun and also something to use for long range casting on the beach Google: potato cannon launcher

author: SpencerTC
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2018, 05:50:21 am
content: I personally use a wrist rocket slingshot with a simple "press button" style fishing reels hose clamped onto it with a lead weight connected to the fishing line. I just keep shooting it up until I get to the spot I was aiming for. I usually make it within 5 minutes, never longer than 10 minutes.

author: hendorog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2018, 05:51:14 am
content: Good excuse to buy a drone I'd say.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2018, 06:00:05 am
content: Quote from: tkamiya on August 14, 2018, 04:42:34 amThere is some risk with a fishing pole and weight, but in most cases it will be negligible. A fairly heavy fishing weight suitable for this application is a fraction of an ounce (a few dozen grams), and will be used with line that has a breaking strength measured in pounds (a few newtons). You would also check the downrange for breakable objects and people.

author: Alex Eisenhut
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2018, 07:03:25 am
content: OK OK.... No time limit was given, all you need is a seed.

author: Chris Wilson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2018, 10:30:48 am
content: With so many people owning fairly large and sophisticated flying drones I have come across a couple of UK amateurs who have paid beer money for someone local to fly a line precisely where it's needed and use it to raise a heavier line then the antenna rope. The last one used a drone with a miniature winch on it to lower a weighted fishing line over a suitable branch from the comfort of the settee in his living room, how cool is that? Technology advances!

author: jmelson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2018, 08:34:04 pm
content: Quote from: cdev on August 14, 2018, 02:37:17 amSo, use copper water pipe. Make a "bolt" out of some steel rod, with a "piston" on the end. I made one of these a long time ago to lop branches off the top of a dead tree. I had an old aviation oxygen tank. I fitted a valve to the tank, and put the copper pipe on the valve. I hooked the other end of the tank to the compressor. The trick was to open the valve quickly without throwing off the aim of the pipe. But, it would launch a foot or-so-long steel rod easily 50+ feet in an arcing shot.Once I had the line tossed through the trees, I could pull up a rope with a length of chainsaw chain to cut off the branch.Jon

author: hendorog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2018, 08:42:58 pm
content: Quote from: jmelson on August 14, 2018, 08:34:04 pmGreat stuff

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2018, 08:47:36 pm
content: Quote from: hendorog on August 14, 2018, 08:42:58 pmA potato cannon would be more fun !Was gunna make one for surf casting but I bought a fishing kite instead that can reach out to 1km.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2018, 09:00:16 pm
content: Get a T-shirt gun!

author: PhilipPeake
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2018, 09:03:41 pm
content: Quote from: Alex Eisenhut on August 14, 2018, 07:03:25 amI had one end of my antenna about 60' up in a tree (placed there with a lead fishing weight, fishing line and a slingshot ... and a lot of persistence). One day talking to a neighbor, she asked what that wire was from the tree. I explained about antennas.She asked how I got it up there. I told her that I tied it to the top of the tree when it was only 6" high and just waited.I thought she would get the joke ... she believed me!

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2018, 10:47:37 pm
content: Just in case someone doesn't know this - all the trees I am aware of do not extend up into the sky like a telescope, they add new growth above the current plant. So if you tie a wire at head height on a tree and come back thirty years later you will have a wire embedded in the tree at head height with a great tall tree extending above it.

author: hermit
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2018, 02:01:22 am
content: I have used bow and arrow to carry fishing line. It helps my son had the bow and arrow of course.

author: djacobow
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2018, 03:29:59 pm
content: I have the EZ Hang slingshot. I cannot recommend it. It has been incredibly frustrating to use, with the ball or weights frequently hitting the slingshot itself.I usually end up just throwing a rock with a string tied to it over my tree. That limits me to 30' or so, which is disappointing.One obvious bit of advice: the whole operation goes much smoother in winter than summer. Also, trees vary by species in their tendency to snag. Choose wisely (if you have choices)

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2018, 04:00:01 pm
content: I've got a 10m squid pole from sotabeams.co.uk ... just ram it up into the trees from the ground with an M0CVO 20/40 loaded dipole on it and guy it about half way up. Then tug it around until it roughly resembles an inverted V while swearing at the trees. Works pretty well and SWR is always better than 1.4:1 without a tuner!As mentioned it's much easier getting the antenna up in winter. Leafy trees are dicks.Currently working on a slightly nicer antenna, a 20/40/80 semi portable dipole with three 7m tall poles as there's too much noise around my area.

author: whalphen
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2018, 04:05:01 pm
content: One more possibility if you have tall trees without low branches -- If you know any deer hunters with climbing tree stands, ask one to use the climber to go up your tree and attach a pulley or wire. I have a couple of climbing tree stands and it's a relatively easy and safe way to go up the tree.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2018, 08:05:40 pm
content: Quote from: whalphen on August 15, 2018, 04:05:01 pmTrees are easy to climb if you can get a line over the first branch. Then pull up and over a line to climb with and fit a Prussic loop on the line and it's end to you. A anti-fall harness can be used rather than a proper climbing harness and all you need is a front fixing point somewhere close to belly button height. Sure climbing boots make it dead easy but good stout shoes are fine if the tree bark is not slippery.If you're keen or some might say crazy, attach another line to your belt and once up there pull a chainsaw up too and offer the tree some personalized grooming.Yeah I've done a bit of this but now getting too old for it now.

author: tkamiya
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2018, 08:08:22 pm
content: What troubles me more than gaining height is avoiding all the branches. Pull the other end of cord to raise the antenna and it gets caught at every branch. Anyone have a solution for THAT?

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 16, 2018, 10:00:33 pm
content: These are all such great ideas. There is a lot to chew on here.I better get on top of it, life is too short to put up with crappy antennas!

author: djacobow
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 16, 2018, 10:48:40 pm
content: Quote from: tkamiya on August 15, 2018, 08:08:22 pmNothing brilliant here, but I've found that when I'm stuck going back a foot or two and then pulling quickly to get over the branch / snag sometimes help.My normal approach is a rock on lightweight nylon over the branch first. I try to throw nearly vertically so the rock just goes over the branch and falls nearly straight down. If you get too many other branches, your life is hell.When I have the light string over the branch and hanging on both ends, I tie heavier dacron to one end, and then pull that up and over (that's the snaggiest step).Once I have the heavier rope over, I tie my antenna center to that and pull that up.Be sure to have enough heavy rope for THREE tree-heights. If you only have two tree-heights of rope, then when you want to take your antenna down you have to pull on the feedline, which doesn't take as kindly to it as rope does. If you have three, you can pull it down by the hanging rope.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 16, 2018, 10:51:40 pm
content: Swearing at the tree also helps I find

author: hermit
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2018, 04:13:13 pm
content: When I told a friend about the bow and arrow he tried to convince me to use a bag of shot because that's what his guys do and he works for a professional tree trimming company. I'd never have gotten the height and accuracy I needed from that though. But, pro tip, use a bag of shot.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2018, 12:35:28 pm
content: i'm not ham (and think no way will be accepted in the community)but fwiw i'll prefer the balloon for more permanent and elegant setup, only drawback is its too much obvious and we'll need clean area...

author: PhilipPeake
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2018, 04:28:42 pm
content: Quote from: CatalinaWOW on August 14, 2018, 10:47:37 pmThis is true.Also worthy of mentioning if this is for long-term deployment is that the rope you use over the branch and then (maybe) tie around the trunk will "disappear" after a year or so. It becomes embedded in the bark/wood of the trunk/branch.Trees are convenient, but maybe not the best solution for long-term use (ask me how I know...).