Owon 12and 14 bit scopes vs. new Rigol and Siglent lines? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: capslock
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2024, 08:29:55 am
content: The new Rigol DHO800 and Siglent SDS800X lines have been discussed and compared ad nauseam. Siglent offers better specs and has traditionally proved more reliable and less buggy. But how do these compare to Owon's 12 and 14 bit low cost scopes? Are there any side-by-side comparions or reviews out there?I'll compare EU prices including German VAT of 19%, and for the sake of simplicity, will mostly stick to the slowest option:Rigol DHO802 SDS802X SDS822X€ 415 (~350 banggood) €427 (currently -7%) € 641 (-7%)12 bit same same1.25 GS/s 2 27" 800x600 touch 8" 1024x600 touch same70 MHz (hack 200) 70 MHz (hack?) 200 MHz30,000 wfs/s 80,000 120,00025 Msamples 50 100Owon XDS2102A TAO3072A XDS3062A XDS3064AE (4-ch)€ 400 € 570 € 410 € 60012 bit 14 bit 12 bit 14 bit1 GSa/s same same same8" 800x600 non-touch 8" 800x600 touch 8"800x600 non 8" 800x600 touch100 MHz (hack?) 70 MHz (hack?) 60 MHz (hack?) 60 MHz (hack?)? wfs/s 45,000 wfs/s ? 45,000 (or 75,000?)20 Msamples 70 Msamples 40 Msamples 40 MsamplesThe 2102 has been around for about 5 years. I remember watching a video review saying that it didn't cheat on the sampling and 12 bits. The 3062 seems to be its successor, albeit at reduced (hackable?) bandwidth. The TOA series have been around for three years and are tablet style, and are all available in 14 bit versions. The 3064 seems to be the TAO in desktop form factor.I see nothing wrong with the two 12 bit Owons, but for the same price, I would probably pick the Siglent. How about the 14 bit offerings? Do they really offer lower noise / better vertical resolution than the 12 bit Siglent?

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2024, 09:41:13 am
content: Quote from: capslock on March 07, 2024, 08:29:55 amThis is answer to your question. You are the only one...There have been previous discussions about those scopes. Few members bought 14 bit versions...And that was it.Nobody liked them, they didn't work very well and hence nobody cares..

author: Aldo22
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2024, 10:07:12 am
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on March 07, 2024, 09:41:13 amThat's something I often ask myself.Why does one device make it into a "community" and the other doesn't?I don't think it has much to do with the quality.For example, the Hantek DSO2000 has managed to generate hundreds of forum pages and many videos (here and on 4pda), while the desktop Owons (not handhelds) just don't "take off". Same with Hanmatek etc.I don't think they are worse than the Hantek.I had also looked at these devices before buying and decided on the Hantek.Somehow I prefer 100 pages of whining to no information at all.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2024, 10:16:03 am
content: Quote from: Aldo22 on March 07, 2024, 10:07:12 amYou are missing the point. Hantek is cheap. Very cheap.And like the OP said, these Owons scopes are priced in same price range with the likes of Siglent that makes fully professional gear.

author: Antonio90
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2024, 10:21:33 am
content: The Hanteks could be had at around half the price. They filled the market for those who could not spend the extra €200-250 to afford a proper entry level DSO from Siglent, Rigol or GW Instek.These Owons with higher resolution launched at a much steeper price mark, while being roughly as buggy as the Hantek models.Now they are cheaper, but competing in price with Hi-res Siglent and Rigol options (or being more expensive) and with inferior hardware, firmware and software refinement/features.They would be way more popular if priced at 250-300EURO.

author: Aldo22
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2024, 10:25:07 am
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on March 07, 2024, 10:16:03 amWell, there are Owons and Hanmateks in the same price range, but they hardly ever appear in online forums.https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005006613016459.htmlYou can even get a 4-channel Hanmatek for <$200https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005006329135606.htmlThere must be other reasons that give a device "momentum" (or not).

author: Antonio90
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2024, 10:29:02 am
content: Quote from: Aldo22 on March 07, 2024, 10:25:07 amThese look a lot like the FNIRSI desktop. Maybe they don't meet the advertised specs. Otherwise, I don't know about those models in particular, but the ones mentioned in the OP are just outclassed in either price or performance by their competitors.EDIT: Owon also has a somewhat popular USB isolated scope. AFAIK, it's cheap and functional, and a pretty good deal. The rest of their lineup is just too similarly priced to better offerings.Also, Aliexpress has no warranty. Just have a look at Eleshop in EU, and compare the pricing of Owon scopes to Siglent or Rigol.

author: Aldo22
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2024, 10:39:00 am
content: @Antonio90It's not about these devices or Aliexpress, those are just examples.It's about the question of why certain devices develop a strong online presence and others do not.It can't be about quality and price alone.Maybe because they have their faults and people are looking for solutions?

author: capslock
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2024, 10:50:09 am
content: Quote from: Aldo22 on March 07, 2024, 10:25:07 amWell, those are all 8 bit scopes. The one in the first link lists at € 224 + € 81 shipping. Not interesting at all.The second is € 164 including shipping for the 2 ch version. Might be an interesting alternative to the Owon HDS scope meters, but that's it.My question basically was whether the 14 bit Owons offer any real advantage over the 12 bit Rigols and Siglents. I found this, which is an older review of one of the earlier and pricier 14 bit scopes from Owon. It is superficial in that Dave talks about menues and display options. There is one sequence with a breathing waveform, but it does not become clear if that is user error or a fundamental problem. We never get to know if the performance lives up to the promises (I would assume not after reading some more):https://youtu.be/ByUiOk00K0U

author: Antonio90
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2024, 11:01:00 am
content: @Aldo22I'm not 100% sure with regards to the general question. I was answering for the 12 and 14 bit models, which I was interested in for some time, but they were really not that compelling offers.In any case, a typical factor is YouTube videos with reviews of lower-end scopes, like learnelectronics, Kerry Wong, etc.In the case of the Hantek 2000 there is a thread here by DavidAlfa, in which he posted an improved firmware, overclocking instructions for responsiveness, step-by-step hacking instructions, and recovery help for the usual newbie blunders. That kind of resource for devices with no after-market support makes the purchasing choice a no brainer.As for why that happened with this scope and not others, I can't tell, but my guess is that it was an attractive option at release, and the rest came behind and lost the momentum.When the DSO-2D1X came out there were really no competitors in that price range. 1GS/s, actual MPts of memory, and not a few KPts, SG, and 150 MHz for around €200 (hacked ofc).Maybe the first to market effect played a fundamental role?

author: Antonio90
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2024, 11:05:48 am
content: Quote from: capslock on March 07, 2024, 10:50:09 amCan't find it now, but there was a noise comparison between the OWON 12 bit and the new DHO800 in one of the DHO threads. The Owon actually had better noise characteristics at lower frequencies, if I remember well. However, it costs around the same, has less bandwith, sample rate, less memory depth, worse screen, no support, is thicker, doesn't have VESA mount or HDMI out, has a tiny fraction of the features, etc. The SDS800X-HD is even better in everything except screen, form factor and I/O, and they are the same price, and even cheaper for 2 channel models.There is just no contest.

author: csuhi17
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2024, 11:08:40 am
content: Owon doesn't lie like Fnirsi...The OP should not forget that the Owon 12-14 bit is not at the maximum sampling rate!8 bits -1Gs, 12 bits 500Ms and 14 bits 100Ms...Siglent and Rigol, on the other hand, know 12 bits at a speed of 1.25Gs or 2Gs.As far as I know, the memory depth also changes if you use Owon in 12 or 14 bits. Now I couldn't find in his description, to what extent.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2024, 11:17:05 am
content: Quote from: capslock on March 07, 2024, 10:50:09 amI already answered you. Are you going to repeat question until you hear what you want?.These Owon 14 bit scopes are not good, and that is it. If they were priced at 200€ people would buy them.And you are wrong. Here on EEVBLOG people already asked this question, and few people bought one and were disappointed how limited device was and how badly it performed.One member managed to use it as a sampler (pulling data to PC) but had problems with slow and unreliable transfer.Also, although it uses 14bit ADC, it's preamp is not very good, and he managed to get good data only on some input ranges.If these scopes were diamond in the rough, you can bet that they would sell like hot cakes. It doesn't need much to spread a word.And with real, proper 12 bit scopes from good brands starting now in 300€ ranges, these cheap brands will make even less sense.Unless they pick up their game and start making better products, or drop prices even more..Which is good news both ways, for people short on money.But as for now, avoid if you can.

author: Antonio90
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2024, 12:01:46 pm
content: Quote from: capslock on March 07, 2024, 10:50:09 amI think Eddie, from the Kiss analog YouTube channel has one, there are a couple videos in which he uses it. Maybe you can have a look there.

author: capslock
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2024, 01:07:44 pm
content: I think Eddie, from the Kiss analog YouTube channel has one, there are a couple videos in which he uses it. Maybe you can have a look there.Thanks, found it. That's exactly what my question was about. I only wish there was a test of the newer models.But by now, I am pretty convinced to stay away from Owon. Just one more Siglent / Rigol question: why do people keep saying the Rigols have nicer screens? I get that for the 10" models, where Rigol offers 1280x800 vs. 1024x600, but for the small ones, Siglent offers a wider screen and more horizontal pixels. Does it have poor viewing angles, is that the issue? Or is this about the two pixel height thing in the Siglents?

author: Antonio90
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2024, 02:07:50 pm
content: Quote from: capslock on March 07, 2024, 01:07:44 pmThe small Rigol ones also have 1280x800 resolution. The main complaint is about the DPI on the 2000 and 3000 HD series I think. And also the absence of video-out, which, when relevant, can negate the drawbacks of low size/DPI.I don't think it's a big deal, but I don't think it is irrelevant either. I work witha lotof text, and, for me, high DPI eases eye fatigue substantialy. In a scope, probably not that important.Some also think that the cost savings are not justified, as FHD screens cost peanuts (which is true). I don't know honestly.I see it as perfectly justifiable on the SDS800X-HD, but less and less so as you go up in price. Not a big deal in any case, but easily solved by Rigol.

author: capslock
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2024, 02:38:10 pm
content: Well, I just checked at various dealers including the rigol.eu official store on Amazon: The DHO800 series has 1024x600 just as the small Siglent series. Not sure where else to go?Edit: even Rigol of North America says 1024x600;https://www.rigolna.com/products/rigol-digital-oscilloscopes/dho800/

author: Antonio90
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2024, 02:52:19 pm
content: You are right, don't know why I thought all the Rigol DHO were the same resolution. Maybe the talking was about the single vs double pixel rendering, or some font smoothing on the Rigol.In any case, the problem (if there is any to begin with) persists with the higher end and bigger screen models, and the DHO800 has, AFAIK, proper scaling via HDMI for bigger screens.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2024, 03:23:47 pm
content: Quote from: capslock on March 07, 2024, 02:38:10 pmMy advice is if you can afford it, go with SDS800xHD from Siglent.It is a very good quality product.Just 10 years ago a scope with similar capabilites cost more than 20000 USD..

author: Aldo22
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2024, 03:33:26 pm
content: Quote from: Antonio90 on March 07, 2024, 12:01:46 pmTo add to the confusion, Kiss Analog's latest video compares the Uni-T UPO1204 to the Rigol DHO814:https://youtu.be/0V7cvx5kRBk🍿

author: maxwell3e10
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 08, 2024, 03:49:08 am
content: I am probably one of the few here who had been consistently speaking up for Owon scopes and using them for nearly a decade. XDS3062A first appeared in 2015,https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-owon-xds-oscilloscopes.They had a lot of features (12 bit, built-in battery, largish touchscreen, internal generator, bode) at that time which are only now becoming common in low-cost scopes. Regarding hardware performance, here is a direct comparison of Owon XDS3062A and Rigol HDO1074:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-hdo1000-and-hdo4000-12bit-oscilloscopes-launched-in-china/msg4999327/#msg4999327.Owon actually has better dynamic range and can resolve, for example, phase noise of HP3326 generator, while Rigol cannot. I haven't actually tested a 14-bit version of Owon, so can't say if it offers higher dynamic range compared with 12 bit.In general Owon has some drawbacks and occasional glitches, but I think lack of popularity here is just because it is not hackable.If I had to buy a cheap scope now, I would probably go for Rigol or Siglent because they will have more updates and hacks, but I am not rushing to replace my home XDS3062A. On the other hand, at work Rigol DHO4000 is sitting on a shelf, having been replaced by an older generation Yokogawa. One problem with new HD Rigols is that they use screen memory of 1000 points for a lot of data processing, not the full (what they call deep) memory. So when saving data from it there is a lot of confusion what has been done with it. Other problems are poor overload recovery, weird screen Moiré patterns, no PC interface software.

author: capslock
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 08, 2024, 12:45:07 pm
content: ok, what I get from those measurements is that the Owon is signficantly better in wide band noise, not so good with 1/f noise and has spikes all over the spectrum. I don't even think these are nonlinearities as they pop up in the noise measurement as well.

author: BillyO
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2024, 07:56:48 pm
content: Not that anyone cares, but Hanmatek and Owon are both made by a company called Liliput.Low end Owons are also available as Hanmateks. They even look identical.

author: TomKatt
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 07, 2024, 03:03:54 pm
content: Owon / Hantek = Hyundia / KiaRigol / Siglent = Honda / ToyotaIn fairness, I've got a portable battery operated single channel 20MHz Owon HDS1021M scope that I bought around 2008 and it still works well for what it is. It was the absolute cheapest portable scope I could find at the time. It pretends to have multimeter capabilities but you'd be foolish to use them. But for verifying a basic presence of a signal it works fine. Battery also allows for floating measurements, which although potentially unsafe is certainly very handy.