Fluke vs Keysights FB page, advertising to consumers - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Vertamps
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2024, 03:20:53 pm
content: I think i want to sell my flukes to buy more HP/Keysight stuff. There both great historical companies, butif Keysight is perceived to not be under the financial thumb of non engineering agendas i think id like to show them my support financially.Please don't ban me if this post is against the rules, id like to contribute to this community in other ways in the future.

author: Vertamps
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2024, 03:42:12 pm
content: It appears both companies are Heavily and happily under the thumb of DEI, but i had to dig just a little for it with Keysight.Which test equipment/multi meter manufacture is not *woke? I can stick with my vintage gear and disassociate them with there moderncompanies.

author: hli
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2024, 07:47:11 am
content: https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2022/3/19/2086873/-Godwin-s-Law-corollary-because-wokeism

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2024, 08:25:23 am
content: Quote from: hli on June 13, 2024, 07:47:11 amExactly.Especially in this case since the OP doesn't bother to explain his contention, and posts a screenshot of Farcebook (?!) pages - which illustrate precisely nothing.I wonder what he will say when he tries to buy a product or service from Keysight?Since it can be difficult to foretell history, I've preserved the OP below. I've reduced the size to avoid reoffendingQuote from: Vertamps on June 12, 2024, 03:20:53 pm I had to search to see what "RWNJ" meant.

author: Vertamps
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2024, 12:49:16 pm
content: Basically which company design's and sells test equipment that does not raise a rainbow flag? Seams like all, even Yokogawa. B and K precision might not.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2024, 01:16:00 pm
content: I don't see an issue with the Fluke "pride" logo. It causes no harm to anyone, promotes inclusivity to those in the LGT... group, and upsets "anti-woke" nutters in one swell hit. So I'm all for it.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2024, 01:48:37 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on June 13, 2024, 01:16:00 pmI find it slightly irking, no more.OTOH those that make a big fuss and propose taking action always make me think "Methinksthe ladyhe doth protest too much". That's especially true of American preachers and politicians every time they get caught out doing something they tell their followers is very very naughty.Yup, that's both religion and politics in one post.Probably what the OP intended, given he wrote "Please don't ban me if this post is against the rules".

author: Zucca
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 13, 2024, 01:56:22 pm
content: Fluke surely loves yellowhttps://www.eevblog.com/forum/buysellwanted/(from-us-to-x)-keysight-u1282a-used-10min-mint-$400/msg5535251/#msg5535251don't know about the other rainbow colors.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 13, 2024, 02:10:23 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on June 13, 2024, 01:16:00 pmSorry, but I don't want to see sexual orientation or whatever current thing shoved in my face from everywhere. If anything, it creates hate towards these groups IMHO. I have nothing against these people as such (most of whom don't want this attention), but I absolutely hate this propaganda with passion. Make effing good products and don't get into politics FFS.

author: Vertamps
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2024, 02:31:22 pm
content: Companies and people can do and say what they want, this freedom is a good thing.Big picture there can be financial incentives in modern times with Government contracts or other market partners to represent that same thing.Parent companies may require top down values, this includes advertising.Fortive own's Fluke and Tektronix along with other prestigious tippy top dog companies, maybe this is what Fortive wants.If DEI standards make the companies more money today, this could provide better pay and more jobs and hopefully innovation.I am aware i cannot escape things i don't subscribe to in everyday life, my lost pennies won't hurt there bottom lines. There old equipment actually helps memake money which i am grateful for, and ill probably continue to use. As it looks like the bandwagon is worldwide.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2024, 02:34:58 pm
content: Quote from: Vertamps on June 13, 2024, 02:31:22 pmDefinitely politics.Are you trying to emulate treez/ocset/faringdon?

author: Vertamps
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2024, 03:05:47 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on June 13, 2024, 02:34:58 pmGoogle searches "treez/ocset/faringdon"only provided one hint of acronyms and it appears on the forum to be very negative.Yes it is getting political so it appears to be against the rules. Criticism im fine with, but if this should be shut down be cause its against or beneath this forum, shut it down.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2024, 03:32:03 pm
content: Quote from: Vertamps on June 13, 2024, 03:05:47 pmBetter still, don't start contentious discussions that can only descend into politics/religion.Those aren't acronyms, they are usernames on this forum and elsewhere. All for the same person who has been banned more than once.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2024, 05:08:54 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on June 13, 2024, 02:10:23 pmBut it's hardly shoving it down your throat. It's a rainbow banner behind the Fluke logo.If it said "respect gay rights or you are a terrible person!" with it you might have a point, but it's just a bit of decoration that happens to be a little more inclusive to these groups. I'd argue it's no longer a political matter to respect gay rights, it's just part of being areasonable person.There are loads of examples of this kind of thing elsewhere in groups that might be more acceptable. For instance you will often see blue-white-red associated with patriotism in logos, because it associates well with (e.g.) US and UK flags. Or blue and yellow in support of Ukraine. This is really no different, it just happens to be using the pride flag colours instead.Anyone getting worked up over this needs to re-evaluate their priorities. It's such a nothingburger. Yes, it's probably somewhat corporate bullshit, designed to be more DEI-friendly, though I don't doubt that the people behind it have good intentions. (I'd just wonder whether they're brave enough to put the rainbow banner in countries that do ban homosexuality.Looking at you, Bethesda.)

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2024, 05:44:01 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on June 13, 2024, 02:10:23 pmHeterosexual sexual orientation is "shoved in our faces" all the time, everywhere. You just don't mind that because it targets you.Quote from: wraper on June 13, 2024, 02:10:23 pmOnly from insecure asshats who somehow feel attacked by a fucking rainbow of pixels.Quote from: wraper on June 13, 2024, 02:10:23 pmMany LGBT people agree, especially when such stuff is just lip service without any substance. Cf. "rainbow washing".However, if a company actually meaningfully engages for its LGBT customers and especially employees, then by all means, fly that rainbow flag!

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2024, 07:05:55 pm
content: Based on the known historical precedent, you can't design rainbow multimeters. Fluke is going to stop your incoming shipments at the border and claim brand infringement.Edit: On the flip side, you Can now design Yellow case multimeters, since Fluke is not Yellow anymore.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2024, 07:54:53 pm
content: QuoteHow were Fluke excluding them before adding this logo? And how does adding it include them where not having it wouldn't?All it says to me is they saw a bandwagon and figured it might help sales to jump on it, whatever 'it' is (currently the rainbow stuff). Nothing to do with electronics, measurement, decent tools. If fixes nothing that was broke.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2024, 09:05:17 pm
content: Snowflakes come in multiple flavors.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2024, 09:36:07 pm
content: I'll try and verify that next winterClimate change willing.

author: hli
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2024, 12:17:02 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on June 13, 2024, 02:10:23 pmThis is not what the rainbow flag says (or does). What it says instead is 'Please respect human rights for everyone'. And people opposing this just say 'I want these rights only for people like me' (however they define 'like me'). And no, this is not politics, this is just basic human decency.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 14, 2024, 01:07:15 pm
content: Quote from: hli on June 14, 2024, 12:17:02 pmNope, this is ideological garbage put all around where it shouldn't be. And frankly it was about human rights just a few decades ago, but now similar to feminism it's about overtaking control by the most extreme activists that hate humanity.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2024, 01:09:19 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on June 14, 2024, 01:07:15 pmWhat'sideologicalabout respecting the rights of other people?

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2024, 01:31:32 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on June 14, 2024, 01:09:19 pmSome ideologies don't respect the rights of other people. Example: National Socialism a.k.a. Nazi as leads by Hitler.Phew. That's this thread ended.

author: armandine2
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2024, 01:44:54 pm
content: i will try to get in inalienable, before it's too late

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2024, 02:36:59 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on June 14, 2024, 01:09:19 pmWhat rights have been disrespected by not having a rainbow logo on test equipment?

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2024, 02:46:25 pm
content: Quote from: PlainName on June 14, 2024, 02:36:59 pmNone at all. But equally, including it harms no one, and makes some people feel a little more included - So it's ultimately a nothingburger as I said.

author: m k
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2024, 02:51:05 pm
content: I can't connect these things.Are rights disrespected by having a rainbow logo on test equipment.What rights, not seeing a rainbow logo?

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 14, 2024, 04:18:55 pm
content: I think companies should keep off the band wagon, if their products are not involved in the issue why all the politicking?I was contacted by a customer that bought on behalf of a university, he (am I allowed to say "he" ?) wanted to know if I would go through the process of having a trading account setup as his colleagues also wanted probes and the whole credit card + expenses form is a hassle. I said sure.So I got the form and filled it out. Some of the questions were about the percentage of black and/or ethnic minority ownership of the business. I replied that my afro-Caribbean wife was more offended by these questions than I was, which was true, she went nuts when I read the form out to her.Still waiting for those orders to roll in.....

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2024, 04:27:18 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on June 14, 2024, 04:18:55 pmIf unsure, say "they" - but please don't say "hir".

author: Vertamps
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2024, 04:34:45 pm
content: Here is a cyborg squirrel having its electronic nut being stolen by an fully natural organic squirrel. This makes everybody happy, except for cyborg squirrel.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 14, 2024, 10:57:54 pm
content: 3:30 in particular

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 15, 2024, 03:48:46 am
content: Quote from: PlainName on June 13, 2024, 07:54:53 pmIt has nothing to do with sales. Most likely a requirement that came down from parent company Fortive.Fortive also own Tektronix, and what do you know, here's the Tektronix Facebook page:Notice the Fortive flag in the Tek photo, and they fly the Fortive rainbow flag at Tek HQ. They had a big price flag raising day. No such thing on Fluke's page, so I'd say likely Tek is going above and beyond off their own bat here.Interestingly, Tek have the rainbow logo on X/Twitter and Fluke do not.If you had to pick the most politically active so to speak company in our space, it's probably Adafruit.

author: DimitriP
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2024, 04:22:36 am
content: QuoteQuoteQuoteFor that kinda money, you require / spew whatever the appropriate words are, painted in the the appropriate colors...You cover the mirrors in your house with your account balances printouts and life is good. Shaving is slightly cumbersome, so you sport the "almost beard" look, some might say.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 15, 2024, 05:00:33 am
content: https://www.fortive.com/inclusionhttps://www.fortive.com/sites/default/files/files/2021%20Fortive%20EEO-1%20Report%20v2.pdfMandatory "unconcious bias training"

author: DimitriP
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2024, 05:19:10 am
content: Signaling is hard work...and it looks funny

author: Kim Christensen
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2024, 05:20:06 am
content: Quote from: tom66 on June 13, 2024, 05:08:54 pmI looked at the OP's first post and thought: WTF is this even about.I didn't notice the Fluke rainbow until Tom66 in reply#5 pointed it out.I guess it wasn't "in my face" enough.Quote from: EEVblog on June 15, 2024, 03:48:46 amOh man!

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 15, 2024, 06:04:34 am
content: Quote from: tom66 on June 14, 2024, 02:46:25 pmAs you might notice from the Dave's post, they certainly shoving it down the throat of their employees.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 15, 2024, 06:17:05 am
content: Quote from: wraper on June 15, 2024, 06:04:34 amYes, I'm glad the whole DEI thing is after my time as an employee. I wouldn't not have stood for a mandatory class telling me I'm racist (that's literally what they do), I would have refused to go and they ultimately would have had to accept that or fire me.James Demore was pretty nice and honest about it, and did exactly what they asked, and he still got fired.

author: dietert1
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2024, 06:33:36 am
content: I've got an umbrella in rainbow colors. It's about 25 years old and is labeled still readable with the sports club where i got it as a present. My elder father used to go there once a week to play volleyball and at the time we visited him and joined the exercise. I like using that umbrella. Don't care about woke or not woke.Regards, Dieter

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 15, 2024, 08:45:12 am
content: Quote from: dietert1 on June 15, 2024, 06:33:36 amThis is what annoys me, things you just take for granted suddenly have meaning, you are saying something with out even knowing it or you have to abandon what you love as it have been appropriated.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 15, 2024, 08:49:10 am
content: Quote from: m k on June 14, 2024, 02:51:05 pmThe problem is that you get to the point where if you don't fall over yourself showing support for something, you are automatically deemed to be against it. This is why we can't have debate anymore. When I listen to the radio I find that interviews could be cut in half if the person replying did not need to first explain all the things they are not trying to say before they can say what they mean. If they don't everything is twisted out of context and they have said the opposite. Neutrality is hardly an option anymore, people can't deal in more that 2 options: for, or against.

author: RoGeorge
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2024, 09:18:00 am
content: Quote from: tom66 on June 13, 2024, 01:16:00 pmYou don't see the issue because you were either brainwashed, or gay.For straight people, reminding them about sexual deviations is disgusting. I mean visceral loath. Or else, why do you think we even bother? Nobody cares what your kinky stuff is, seriously, but please don't rub that in my face all the time.What the LGBT propaganda is doing now, is like telling scatological jokes at the dinner table. Would you like to see a banner with a loaded toilet at the restaurant? I wouldn't like that, even if the poop banner were for the right of constipated people, I still wouldn't like that at my table. Also, loathing the majority to signalize virtue for a minority doesn't do any good for that minority either.The effect is opposite, from "don't care", the population has now shifted to "I'm sick of this".And by the way, the purpose of "inclusivity" propaganda is not about being inclusive. It is about promoting racial hate, and most probably this will end in civil wars. The stage is already set, after flooding the western countries with illegal immigrants.About Fluke, look who's owning Fluke, and you'll learn who's pushing propaganda to your throat, when all you want is to buy a DMM. Nevermind, go woke, go broke.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2024, 09:59:35 am
content: Quote from: RoGeorge on June 15, 2024, 09:18:00 amStraight people rub their sexuality in our facesall the time.Maybe in your culture everyone is taught to think non-straight relationships are disgusting, but in many other cultures, we accept diversity. And note my careful choice of word “relationships”, because LGBT+ is not just about sex, because relationships aren’t just about sex. The whole reason we need pride events is to remind people that we exist, that we aren’t going anywhere, and that we will not hide just because you want us to. We have every right to exist, same as you, and to love the people we want to love, same as you do.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2024, 10:02:51 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on June 15, 2024, 06:17:05 amHave you actually been to one and experienced that that is what they tell you? Or are you just going by what anti-“woke” activistsclaimthose classes say? (Because let’s face it, conservative activists have a long history of fearmongering based onimaginaryproblems, making up stories of extreme things thatdidn’t happen.)

author: dietert1
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2024, 10:04:02 am
content: What you describe is the "virtual" media world. In the real world we have some gay neighbors and it doesn't matter. They are pretty decent and would never discuss their sex.But somebody else in the street came up and asked whether we can hear their sex. Certain people are nothing but terrible and one can find a representative collection in this thread.I like colors and colorful paintings. Yesterday i watched a docu about South Africa and the meaning of color to them.Regards, Dieter

author: artag
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2024, 10:18:59 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on June 15, 2024, 05:00:33 amNormalising tolerance is preferable to normalising intolerance.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 15, 2024, 10:36:32 am
content: Quote from: tooki on June 15, 2024, 09:59:35 amHave you ever heard of a whole straightmonth, not a day, a whole month dedicated to your sexual orientation? Do you often see straightness promoted in the movies? Or people marching with banners saying they're proud to be straight, and not be able to have a day of using internet and not seeing it? Dunno about you, but I very rarely see straight people discussing their intimate relationship or kinks at all, not to say bragging about it. As about how often do you see relationships of straight people, duh, it's overwhelming majority. It's like complaining you hear English language in English speaking country while marching with "proud to speak Mandarin" banner everywhere you go.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2024, 11:07:48 am
content: Quote from: wraper on June 15, 2024, 10:36:32 amFirst of all, let’s get one thing straight (no pun intended): LGBT+ pride is not aboutsex, it’s aboutlove(loving yourself, and who you choose to love). The fact that you anti-LGBT people think it’s only about sex says more about you than it does us.Regardless of that, though: straight relationships (and sex!) areeverywhere, all the time.Is it “promoted” in movies? Absolutely! It’s omnipresent. You refer to non-straight depictions in media, etc, as “promotion”, but it’s justexistence.You guys get the remaining 11 months of the year. I think that’s fair enough.You don’t need parades because nobody hates you for being straight, nobody is discriminating against you, and nobody is complaining about you “promoting” yourself by existing. We will keep having parades until you stop trying to shove us back in the closet (or the grave).

author: artag
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2024, 11:10:48 am
content: Quote from: hli on June 13, 2024, 07:47:11 amFabulous ! I salute my namesake (I'm a Godwin, too. No known/near relation though).

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 15, 2024, 11:23:49 am
content: Quote from: tooki on June 15, 2024, 11:07:48 amThose remaining months are as yours as everyone else's.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2024, 11:47:32 am
content: Quote from: wraper on June 15, 2024, 11:23:49 amOf all the points in my last reply (the least important one of all),that’sthe one you choose to respond to?!?But also: if the remaining 11 months are “just as mine as everyone else’s”, then so is pride month for you. It being pride month doesn’t take away anything from you.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2024, 11:48:55 am
content: QuoteThis is theinternet! The only reason one might not be hated for being straight is because some other thing will have been used.But, as it happens, there is a lot of hate towards straight, white males. And that doesn't even factor inold, straight, white males!

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2024, 11:56:45 am
content: Quote from: PlainName on June 15, 2024, 11:48:55 amOnly in the minds of the perpetually-offended.There probablyissomeresentmentagainst straight white males, but it’s nothatred.Nobody is trying to get straight people outlawed. No churches and politicians preach that straight people are evil.Note: when I use absolutes in these replies, like “none” and “nobody”, I mean this in the non-literal sense. You can always find some kook who would provide a counterexample. Take the absolutes to mean “practically none/nobody”, i.e. nosignificantnumbers. Whereas you absolutely do find significant numbers of people wishing discrimination and violence and hatred upon LGBT+ people.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 15, 2024, 12:55:32 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on June 15, 2024, 11:47:32 amI just pointed out the most obvious one as those months don't belong to the straight people in any way. The most you could remotely attribute to the straight people are a few religious holydays that are not even religious anymore in Western world. For example look at Biden's Christmas and Easter, that were more like a mockery of the traditional values. I'm an atheist BTW but find most of the Christian values about right. As of Hollywood movies, the standard role of a straight white male is to be a bigoted idiot these days. While LGBTQIA+ BIPOC woman saves the day (I'm exaggerating a bit but it's not that far from the truth). Look no further than latest Star Wars.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2024, 03:44:13 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on June 15, 2024, 12:55:32 pmWell I won’t go look at the new Star Wars, simply because I’ve never been a fan of that franchise.But anyway, the current “overrepresentation” is still peanuts when viewed in the context of the overall back catalog of media. We werewildlyunderrepresented in the past (and usually within one of a few stereotypes, none of them particularly realistic or flattering), so a bit of compensation right now doesn’t seem unwarranted. I think in the long run it will average out to a realistic share. A straight kid has a broad library of movies with positive role models they can identify with. This has beensorelylacking for LGBT+ people for a very long time.

author: Vertamps
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2024, 03:49:05 pm
content: Additional June should be Half-Off Calibration month with advertised prices, put some real money down to celebrate. Tradeoff: Rainbow cal stickers, ill take that.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2024, 04:40:17 pm
content: Quote from: RoGeorge on June 15, 2024, 09:18:00 amThere is nothing that is deviant or wrong about being gay. If you believe that, then there is nothing more to discuss -- you opinion is not compatible with a free and liberal society and you should not feel accepted in expressing it.In free countries, approximately 3-5% of people are gay, and around 3-5% are another identity that is not straight, so the idea that you can straight up pretend that 10% of people's beliefs are disgusting is... well, it isdisgusting itself.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 15, 2024, 06:08:26 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on June 15, 2024, 10:02:51 amI've heard it that is the case, but then this is absolutely nothing new. The thing I resented about going to church at my grandmothers insistence was being told by a man that did not know me that I was a sinner and that I could never change but could be saved by going to confession every week, ring a bell?Brain washing is brain washing, it does not matter who is doing it, it generally follows the same memes to achieve the same types of goals.

author: m k
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2024, 06:35:54 pm
content: Where is its root.I'm in the middle of nowhere of middle of nowhere.In a mostly homogenous population, up until very recently, around some parts.Long ago Pompeji had street signs showing the way.Later Mondays, Tuesdays and Thursdays were generally accepted days.And to make one Roman thing straight.Free Roman citizen must have been on top, of what wasn't so important.Maybe silent majority didn't know what silent minority was living.And this is a recoil.Here local EBU radio company has recently had some issues.Some criticized internally that some program has too many heterosexual males.Toxic equality, is it the other end of "ringing" situation.About a beard, or not.It's World War I thing, so not very old.Gas mask doesn't work with beard.I think all of this has a resemblance of leaving a religious sect.Also possibly of leaving the whole religion.It is a zero sum game, sort of, you must get even, you must get your revenge, sort of.Indifference comes much later, if ever.But in christian world the root cause is clearly close to the church rulings centuries ago.So unfortunate to some, you reap what you sow, or not.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2024, 07:02:32 pm
content: Quote from: m k on June 15, 2024, 06:35:54 pm"Affirmative actions" to "address inequality" are very problematic since they undermine the concept off a meritocracy. So do many other things, of course.TheI hate the unthinking mantra that we are all equal. No, we are not. In particular, you will never be my equal.Yes, I have said that to many people. The cretins look surprised. The wise people smile and make the obvious correct retort. HR droids have difficulty deciding what to say.

author: AVGresponding
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2024, 07:26:05 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on June 14, 2024, 04:27:18 pm

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 16, 2024, 07:53:55 am
content: QuoteI've seen the slides, I've watched the leaked recordings, I've heard the leaked audio, I've looked at the companies that provide these services and when they cover, it's all very clear.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 16, 2024, 08:02:30 am
content: Quote from: Simon on June 15, 2024, 06:08:26 pmReminds me of when I went to a "counselling session" once when they laid off half the company, not because I needed it, but because I was away the day they fired everyone and marched them out the door, so wanted to say goodbye.We all sat in a circle and had to take turns talking about our emotions etc, and when I came to my turn I explained that I didn't care and was just there to see everyone.No amount of trying to convince them it didn't bother me worked, I was "in shock", I had "suppressed emotions", "bottled resentment" etc and they wouldn't let it go, I had to either join in the group struggle session and admit my "true emotions" or leave. I left.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2024, 08:35:04 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on June 16, 2024, 08:02:30 amThat bitmighthave been reasonable, e.g. if your attitude somehow dissuaded others from expressing their feelings.The other bits? Um, how can I put this, ... "less reasonable". There are advantages to having a "stiff upper lip".

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2024, 08:44:54 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on June 16, 2024, 07:53:55 amFair enough, in that case! (In which case it’s also a great example of why crying wolf (like the proven-false story of the school providing litter boxes for a kid identifying as a cat) detracts from real problems.)

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2024, 08:46:06 am
content: Quote from: tom66 on June 15, 2024, 04:40:17 pmReplace homosexual with homophobic and repeat your mathsTolerance is not a sound principle. You need to be able to judge people by something more than that or you end up a self-contradictory, conflicted and disfunctional trainwreck of a society. Examples abound these days.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2024, 08:49:18 am
content: Quote from: magic on June 16, 2024, 08:46:06 amCompletely 180° incorrect, and this has been studied:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance

author: AVGresponding
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2024, 08:53:13 am
content: Quote from: magic on June 16, 2024, 08:46:06 amA stupid and fallacious argument. How many people have been beaten up or even killed for being homophobic?If you ignore intent, context, and consequences, you can make anything sound equivalent.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 16, 2024, 09:13:02 am
content: It's all really quite simple, so simple. Just deal with the natural instinct to bully. People fear different and with good reason, different is risky, it means change, it means I may be left behind, it means I have to make an effort to understand how to deal with this different. It means effort, and effort requires energy which is a commodity.Teach people to rationalize their fear of the unknown and work around it and you won't need all these courses.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2024, 09:37:11 am
content: Quote from: tooki on June 16, 2024, 08:49:18 amThat wikipedia article backs magic - it effectively says you can't have unlimited tolerance of the intolerant and survive, so you must be intolerant to some extent.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 16, 2024, 10:02:30 am
content: Quote from: tggzzz on June 16, 2024, 08:35:04 amYes, but they are the ones that pressed it, they could have just skipped me as I suggested, I was otherwise just sitting there silently listening and not interrupting anything.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2024, 10:49:10 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on June 16, 2024, 10:02:30 amClearly you were being passive-aggressive, and that's more difficult to deal with than simple aggressionThus your hidden unrecognised <whatevers> had to forced into the open for the good of allOr something. They must be right because they are paid professionals. Mustn't they?I'm sure that you declining Their invitation to speak couldn't possibly be seen as an invitation for everybody to actuallythinkabout and question what They were saying. Could it?

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2024, 10:52:52 am
content: Quote from: PlainName on June 16, 2024, 09:37:11 amPerhaps you missed that the name of this concept is theparadoxof tolerance?

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 16, 2024, 10:54:45 am
content: Quote from: tggzzz on June 16, 2024, 10:49:10 am

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2024, 12:23:26 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on June 16, 2024, 10:52:52 amPerhaps we were discussing tolerance and how magic was completely wrong rather than what a study allegedly backing that up is called?

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2024, 12:39:59 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on June 16, 2024, 08:02:30 amYou could have said you where happy because they fired all the a-holes. Or there is more room in the parking lot, cafeteria, more office space, etc.I went through my fair share of trainings but never something like what you described. Don't rule out that your session was organised to control the narrative of the mass lay-offs.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2024, 12:56:57 pm
content: I don't have a problem with LGB people. I have a problem with LGBT activist.Moms, women, dads get one day of celebration a year. LGB certainly doesn't need a a whole month. They also certainly don't need companies to swear their allegiance to them. The whole ordeal is repulsive, and there is a correction coming. You pushed the Overton window so far that almost nobody is in it anymore. Therefore for the most people just got comfortable being outside the window, and we don't care what you call us anymore.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2024, 01:14:03 pm
content: Quote from: tszaboo on June 16, 2024, 12:56:57 pmActually it is the whole 'woke' movement. Everyone needs a specific label to fit in a specific box while everyone needs to be inclusive. There is no logic in that and companies guzzling too much of the LGBTXYZ cool-aid typically make things worse for 'acceptance' by putting even more labels on people. IMHO people should go back to respecting other people just the way they are.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2024, 08:18:55 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on June 16, 2024, 01:14:03 pmGo back to when, exactly? There has never been a time when LGBT people have had the same respect as non-LGBT people, and in many places, we do not have the same legal rights and protections as non-LGBT people.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2024, 08:53:03 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on June 16, 2024, 08:18:55 pmI think you might need to split between rights (like marriage, adopting children, etc) and getting respect from others. For the first there are definitely improvements to be made in many places on the world. For the second: there will always be a percentage of people who are assholes who like to beat up people for being different like gay, jewish, different skin color, etc, etc and you won't change that. Putting a label on people just gives assholes more reasons to beat up people than less. IIRC there is an increase in hate crimes against LGBT people in the NL compared to the past, so something is changing for the worse.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2024, 09:10:08 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on June 16, 2024, 08:53:03 pmEmphasis mine.You may not be able to change their feelings directly, but by making their beliefs clearly unacceptable in a free society (which is kinda what pride is about - "we" are here, "we" are not going away), you make it much less likely that they will feel free to be assholes.For a few people you may even make them reconsider their behaviour (though I concede the number of people is small - this change is more generational than personal.)I think that if you were to go back 60 years to around the time of the civil rights movement you'd find people who believed the same as you - "I'm not a racist person, but you can't fix racist people by demonstrating." But clearly it did have some effect on the zeitgeist.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2024, 09:14:06 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on June 16, 2024, 09:10:08 pmI don't agree with this. What I'm seeing right now is people saying 'I'm different, accept that'. Where anti-racism demonstrations in the past where about being equal; telling people they are the same. The latter is very close to the truth so should be much easier to accept (except for those dead set in their beliefs).

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2024, 09:28:49 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog link=topic=431631.msg5543859I thought this only existed in movies

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2024, 09:58:06 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on June 16, 2024, 08:18:55 pmSo? I'm an expat or an immigrant, I don't have the same respect. Others are fat, they don't get the same treatment. I met a guy he was balding, it's not good for finding a date, woman tell him he is disgusting. You get ridiculed if you are religious in many circles.Grow a thicker skin, and stop crying, nobody really cares.You 100% have the same rights as anyone else, stop bullshitting. Yes, it wasn't always like that, and there are places where it's not like that, we know that, but guess what, that's in the history books.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 16, 2024, 11:46:51 pm
content: Quote from: Bud on June 16, 2024, 09:28:49 pmUnfortunately not. Keycorp in 1994. IIRC I was at a Q&A thing with Bill Gates at the opera house the previous day when everyone was called into the conference room and told they were let go because the big expected contract from the bank of China didn't come through.While they were in there they had IT take away all their computers and replaced with a carboard box. When you came out everyone was told to pack your things and were marched out the door.I came in the next day to a ghost town and was told about the "counselling session" in the city.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 17, 2024, 12:08:08 am
content: Quote from: tszaboo on June 16, 2024, 09:58:06 pmI had a bunch of EE uni students visit the lab once (one of them took that photo on my Wikipedia page) to ask me industry questions as part of some course.A lot of questons were about discrimiation in the workplace etc, so they were clearly being indoctrinated about it in some class.I had to explain how the real world works. You can and will get "discriminated" against in dozens of different ways, but race, gender, sexuality are usually way down the list.Try personality, attitude, talent, enthusiasm, interests, and I even mentioned clothing, hair style, tattoo's, body odour and all sorts of stuff etc that all generally rank above what your sexuality is.They seemd genuinely shocked to hear this, as if the only thing they were taught is that there was rampant racism/sexisim in the industry.People may not even know your sexuality unless you tell them, let alone care. These days people put their pronouns and gender/sexuality/latest thing flags right in their bios and make it their entire identity. And they wonder why they can't get a job.All that identity/adtivism stuff in your bio is now a HUGE red flag these days, it just signals "trouble", and any employer with any brain is going to avoid it.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 17, 2024, 01:08:33 am
content: FYI, the company Scale just posted their new hiring practice:https://twitter.com/alexandr_wang/status/1801331034916851995Quote

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 17, 2024, 07:12:40 am
content: I don't see why hiring on merit should ever be controversial.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 17, 2024, 08:11:34 am
content: Quote from: tom66 on June 17, 2024, 07:12:40 amI don't think it is but you'll need to be able to back it. At one of my customers I'm typically involved in the hiring process. For some positions like programming, network engineering and hardware engineering I created tests. A test doesn't discriminate.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 17, 2024, 08:56:42 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on June 17, 2024, 08:11:34 amAgreed.What I have learned is don't hire someone because they have a good background. We made that mistake on someone with 20yrs experience and they turned out to be useless in the end, it cost us months of development time to undo the mess they created, not to mention the cost of hiring dead weight for so long.A test is a good way to evaluate someone, I also like to see personal projects or open source contributions.I don't put that much weight on academic performance, though it doesn't hold zero value, you can come out at the top of your class in university but be a middling to poor engineer in industry. I know quite a few skilled engineers and programmers who do not hold a related degree or any degree at all.I am more on the fence about things like internships for underrepresented groups. There, I think the concept of meritocracy breaks down.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 17, 2024, 09:36:25 am
content: Quote from: tom66 on June 17, 2024, 07:12:40 amIt is, or was under the pressures of DEI and the SJW mob rule. He would have been cancelled for saying that just a year or two ago. His business would have been boycotted, and he would have likely lost investment funding. Good chance he would have been banned from old Twitter for saying it as well. Anyone who thinks I'm exaggerating doesn't know how bad it got at the peak of DEI/SJW cancel culture.The tide has changed, he got almost zero pushback.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 17, 2024, 09:39:03 am
content: Quote from: tom66 on June 17, 2024, 08:56:42 amAnd the test doesn't have to be hard, even basic questions are enough to weed out those who don't have a clue, but otherwise have an impressive employment history.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 17, 2024, 10:09:31 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on June 17, 2024, 09:39:03 amAt the decent companies I have worked for, the interview was "tell us what you have done" then, based on what they said, "tell us why you didthatand notthisalternative" and "what would you do differently next time". Any useful candidate ought to be able to answer those questions. Then follow it up with some open-ended questions which reveal (to the candidate) how/why the company works and how the interviewee thinks.Whenever I've encountered anything resembling a "why are manhole covers round" question as an interviewee, I've lost interest in the company.

author: Kim Christensen
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 17, 2024, 03:24:36 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on June 17, 2024, 07:12:40 amBut then you're discriminating against the "neurodiverse"...

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 17, 2024, 04:26:11 pm
content: Quote from: Kim Christensen on June 17, 2024, 03:24:36 pmPositively or negatively?I'm currently enjoying watching "Astrid et Raphaëlle" a.k.a. "Astrid: Murder in Paris" a.k.a. "Bright Minds". That is notable for going to some lengths to show how non-NTs perceive the world and the difficulties they face. That's a secondary part of many of the plots, and a primary differentiator with the many other "police procedurals"."The idea for the series arose in 2017; its producers wished to create a thriller in which a main character would be autistic"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astrid_et_Rapha%C3%ABlle

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 17, 2024, 07:18:43 pm
content: Quote from: tszaboo on June 16, 2024, 09:58:06 pmOh, the “suck it up, buttercup” argument, which is really just telling victims to accept being victimized. Fuck that, not doing it.And you think we have identical rights even in “progressive” countries? How woefully ignorant. In USA (my home country) in many states you can still be fired from your job or denied housing just for being gay. Many countries have subtle differences in legal rights and protections afforded to gays and lesbians, compared to heterosexuals, and often much larger differences for trans people. Here in Switzerland, there is still no provision for people to have a gender other than “male” or “female” recorded in government record (not even just “other”).And this is just talking about what the legal systems say. There’s all sorts of hidden discrimination that happens, too.Regardless, the majority doesn’t get to unilaterally decide when we monitories have been given enough. As long as we continue to experience discrimination and hate, we are going to fight back, as is our right and duty.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 17, 2024, 07:23:30 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on June 17, 2024, 08:11:34 amTests absolutely can discriminate. This has been studied extensively in the context of socioeconomic mobility, because questions worded using culturally-specific reference points can leave someone from a different culture at a big disadvantage, even though the person actually understands the material completely.Of course, tests for technical subjects are less likely to run into such troubles, but it’s possible.This is the type of thing “diversity” classes are intended to make people aware of: things that we do that totally unintentionally create discriminatory outcomes.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 17, 2024, 07:24:43 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on June 17, 2024, 07:18:43 pmThat explains everything.Then be a victim for the rest of your life. I can tell you, you are not going to change the mind of the 97%. Not like this. Good luck.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 17, 2024, 07:30:44 pm
content: Quote from: tszaboo on June 17, 2024, 07:24:43 pmIt explainsnothing, since I grew up half in USA, half here, and with influences from elsewhere too, so my values are a mishmash of things anyway.Never mind that the USA is not in the slightest a homogeneous country; that of all things should be obvious these days, with the country ripping itself apart. So someone being from USA tells you absolutely nothing about what their opinions and beliefs are, or how they got them.As for the “97%”: way more than 3% of the population is LGBT+, and more people still are allies. So your numbers are WAY off.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 17, 2024, 07:53:14 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on June 17, 2024, 07:23:30 pmTrue, but then again you will want to hire people who will fit in with the company. Somebody who doesn't understand English very well, will have a hard time working at a company where English is the common language. The same for being pro-active or not; in some cultures people do as they are told and that may not be a good match for a given position. And I have to add that the technical skill tests I use are also intended to get a technical conversation going about the topic. The goal is to give applicants every opportunity to show their knowledge and skills. A good applicant is likely to comment on the test itself where things are unclear to the applicantQuote from: tooki on June 17, 2024, 07:18:43 pmIMHO recording gender is outdated. It really serves no purpose. Back in the old days identity papers would also show occupation and religion. Fortunately those days are gone and gender is next if you ask me.

author: Kim Christensen
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 17, 2024, 09:51:38 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on June 17, 2024, 07:53:14 pmOnly biological sex should be recorded, since "gender" is a made up concept that can be changed at will.Same reason for not having occupation and religion listed on government ID.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 17, 2024, 10:10:36 pm
content: Quote from: Kim Christensen on June 17, 2024, 09:51:38 pmWhat about those with XXY, XYY,etcchromosomes?

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 17, 2024, 10:18:59 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on June 17, 2024, 10:10:36 pmThat's what "Neither" or "Other" is for. Some passports have an 'X' option for people who are not 'M'/'F'. But I agree, it's an outdated concept anyway, since you can get someone who clearly identifies as a male but who dresses as female, or vice versa, or anything in between, it's perfectly acceptable in this day and age after all (in most countries & to most people).For medicine having biological sex is relevant, as there are some diseases and conditions that only impact certain sexes.

author: Kim Christensen
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 17, 2024, 11:26:40 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on June 17, 2024, 10:10:36 pmPerhaps that's how people should be classed on government ID: By their chromosomes, making it easier to ID victims of crimes, etc...Male: XYFemale: XXOther: 47,XYYBut then this would stoke paranoia in some people. Can't really win here.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2024, 08:41:32 am
content: We should be allowed to have Z chromosomes too.ZZ would betopcool.

author: Kim Christensen
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2024, 04:13:22 pm
content: People with ZZ chromosomes tend to grow very long beards.I don't find people with XXZZ chromosomes to be particularly attractive...