Temperature controlled iron - no sensor - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 02, 2014, 03:24:57 pm
content: So I bought a Tenma temperature controlled soldering iron, took the iron apart, no sensor..... unless I'm missing something. so how is it regulating ? I put it in water and it ran full power, I tried to solder a large plane and it would not cope but it did not ramp the power up anyway like it did in water. So what is the crack, is this thing a fraud or not ?

author: DL8RI
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 02, 2014, 03:32:53 pm
content: If I had to guess, I'd say: 4-Wire-Measurement over the heater.As I googled it has a 5-Pin-Connector, so one GND, two heating-power and two heating-sense.Does it have two additional wires on the bottom-side?

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 02, 2014, 03:42:42 pm
content: only 3 wires come off the cable so unless the element resistance is temperature dependent. But that means that not only the tip must suffer a temperature loss but also the element, very poor.

author: DL8RI
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 02, 2014, 04:00:44 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on March 02, 2014, 03:42:42 pmWell, that's to be expected. It's a very cheap station, so there have to be compromises.In this price-region I'd rather stick to the mentioned Weller TCPs, regulated by the curie-temperature of the tip.If it only has three wires, maybe they "pulse" it, like Dawgie suggested. You could look at it with a scope. On the other Hand it's not worth it.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 02, 2014, 04:02:13 pm
content: Well they are probably current sensing the power to the tip, I'll investigate later

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 02, 2014, 05:43:21 pm
content: Tear down the control box.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 02, 2014, 06:18:23 pm
content: Quote from: NiHaoMike on March 02, 2014, 05:43:21 pmDo this. I have a "temperature controlled" iron from Maplin and it's just a phase controlled lamp dimmer circuit with no feed back.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 02, 2014, 06:29:22 pm
content: Yea I'm toying with the idea of ringing farnell up to tell them what a heap of shit they are selling and to take it back or to pull the thing apart on camera and expose it for the heap of shit it is so people are warned.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 02, 2014, 06:50:28 pm
content: yea that is the one, sure it may have a pid system but it's taking an input from the wrong place, there are bad reviews of it elsewhere as well.

author: Refrigerator
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 02, 2014, 06:57:18 pm
content: 3 wires you say?maybe it's like this:1 = GND.2 = power.3 = sensor feedback.They probably put a common GND between the sensor and the heating element.

author: Towger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 02, 2014, 07:26:12 pm
content: It could use something like a DS18B20. Can you see data coming backs from it?There have been loads of these irons sold as faulty returns on eBay.

author: pickle9000
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 02, 2014, 07:42:57 pm
content: Schematic on the following thread (I think). Looks the same.https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/atten-938d-soldering-station/

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 02, 2014, 07:56:29 pm
content: yea that is the same model, just rebadged

author: pickle9000
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 02, 2014, 08:29:19 pm
content: So have you tried the iron out?60 watts is up there so the warm up / recovery time should be pretty low. Replacement elements are cheap.I have a couple Chinese stations (technically 3) here (Among things I took home when I retired). The biggest fault are the handle / cord assy and temp display accuracy. Cords are way to stiff and you really do need to open them up and make sure that they are soldered correctly. That said I haven't had any problems with any them. They where originally purchased through a Canadian seller so that may factor in. All over 3 years old and have a few hundred hours on each. The one branded Gordak looks pretty well built.Anyway the good thing about Chinese stuff is that you can get parts, the bad part is that you may need them.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 02, 2014, 08:32:21 pm
content: yea, it won't react to a large ground plane, despite not being able to melt the solder the power graph does not go up much because the temp sensing is too far from the tip.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 02, 2014, 09:58:06 pm
content: I checked the power unit, they have bridged the connectors so that what would be a sensing line is also the main power, probably so that they can use various irons

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 02, 2014, 10:01:30 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on March 02, 2014, 08:32:21 pmYour tip is probably way too small. If you want to solder to a ground plane you need a big tip like 4mm or 5mm wide and an 80W iron. My Ersa irons also use a 2 or 3 wire scheme to control the temperature.

author: pickle9000
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 02, 2014, 10:51:31 pm
content: One of the most under-appreciated bit's of soldering gear is a preheater. Even with a 30 watt iron you can get amazing things done. For proper rework it's pretty much a must.The bigger the tip the better.

author: sleemanj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 03, 2014, 02:01:56 am
content: I think I saw some posts regarding a sensor-less element in the Dangerous Prototypes thread recently, wasn't paying much attention just happened to see them in the recent posts...http://dangerousprototypes.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=56&t=2457&start=660#p56921

author: neslekkim
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 03, 2014, 03:07:09 pm
content: Build this project and put in that case, i think it's the same enclosure:http://dangerousprototypes.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=56&t=5264

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 03, 2014, 07:01:14 pm
content: Interestingly that thread lists one of the Hakko models as having a sensor in series with the element.This doesn't apply to the Hakko FX888D,m which has a separate sensor and in my experience melts solder well, even at low temperatures. I use leaded solder, have it set to 250oC and it works perfectly.http://dlnmh9ip6v2uc.cloudfront.net/datasheets/Tools/fx888d.pdfI'd recommend it, even though it's difficult/impossible to get hold of a 230V version so it needs to be run off a transformer in the UK, it's worth it.

author: saturation
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 03, 2014, 07:36:30 pm
content: My guess is this has a PTC ceramic heating element. This is the kind used for hair dryers etc., and is self regulating. Thus, what determines the heat output is proportionate to the power applied. However, these elements are nonlinear and imprecise, e.g. not IPC level soldering iron quality.http://www.sunlead.com.tw/p1.htm

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 03, 2014, 10:09:35 pm
content: Quote from: Hero999 on March 03, 2014, 07:01:14 pmWell I'm looking to sort that one out, there is a UK distributor but they just have a basic html website and no way of buying online so I'm looking at bulk buying from them and redistributing, knock this tenma shit out of the water

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 04, 2014, 11:22:17 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on March 03, 2014, 10:09:35 pmGood luck with that. If all else fails how about ordering a large batch from the US and bundling them with transformer to sell to those in the UK?

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 05, 2014, 06:49:50 am
content: Price has to work and most people making impulse buys will prefer no transformer

author: DL8RI
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 05, 2014, 09:30:08 am
content: Hi,and the second question is... why should someone in Europe buy a Hakko FX-888?First the Transformer-thing sucks, another block laying somewhere around. Second, importing every stupid Tip from the US, no thanksFor a quite similar price (100€ for the station + 20€ for the transformer), you can get an ERSA i-Con Pico for example.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 05, 2014, 09:56:57 am
content: much more expensive but not a bad contender

author: DL8RI
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 05, 2014, 10:25:30 am
content: I can only speak for Germany, but here you can get it for 140.And regarding the price of a FX-888+Transformer (I'd estimate 120€) that is not that much more. An since it seems nearly impossible to get even a single Tip for Hakko on the local market. That ruins the story at least for me.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 05, 2014, 10:32:22 am
content: and what if I'm supplying you tips ? of course I will not just get the irons but consumables as well

author: DL8RI
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 05, 2014, 10:46:18 am
content: Ah, you have your own store... I didn't notice that. Well, then you could be the first "end-user"-distributer in Europe.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 05, 2014, 10:54:13 am
content: There is one in the UK but they have a basic 90's style website, with a price list, you email them and tell them what you want and they tell you the total with shipping then you send them a check and one day probably 10 days after you initially started trying to get the thing it turns up. I'm planning to source from them and sell on ebay and my own website so that there is easier UK/EU access to hakko gear.

author: neslekkim
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 05, 2014, 12:11:13 pm
content: The Hakko fx-888D in UK cost only €120, not sure if VAT is included or not though..http://www.dancap.co.uk/soldering/fx888ddigitalpricelist.htmAs an comparision, I paid €218 for it from the supplier here in Norway..(Not using it anymore though, jumped to the JBC instead.. )

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 05, 2014, 12:14:43 pm
content: Quote from: neslekkim on March 05, 2014, 12:11:13 pmVAT and delivery are not included, and I contacted him Sunday and am still waiting for a reply although monday I got a quuick email to say he was out and would be in touch when he got back. I've also contacted Hakko direct, there is another UK reseller and their website is slightly better and very very slow, again no means of direct purchase you have to ring up and send postal orders no doubt.

author: neslekkim
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 05, 2014, 12:22:12 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on March 05, 2014, 12:14:43 pmAnd they also don't want to send outside UK I guess?Because of all this hakko crap, I tried long to buy an FX951 from Dancap, but they did not want to sell it, so I bought from an US seller on ebay, they had 220v version, but when I got it I ended up with an fake, which I returned (costed me an fortune to return it), and got an new one, fake that one also.I paid what is the going rate for fx951 in US, prices compared tohttp://www.tequipment.net/etc, but all that seller had was fakes.So, sitting with an fake 951, totally unusable, so I turned to the Norwegian supplier, was not allowed to buy from the swedish importer either, and I paid way more than the 888D is worth.I'm not too crazy about Hakko for how they do things, the 888D should be sold at reasonable price (like the $89 in US), it's an good hobby iron.But, when the FR300 comes to the marked, I'm kinda interrested in getting that, if it is possible to buy it somewhere and it's not an fake.. Not going to trust US sellers anymore..

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 05, 2014, 12:43:06 pm
content: Well I don't know who it is that decides of selling restrictions but I will see if I can get them direct and then make life simpler for the rest of us.

author: baljemmett
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 05, 2014, 05:26:13 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on March 05, 2014, 10:54:13 amOr alternatively, such as when I bought mine, you pay by bank transfer and it turns up the next day... I was a bit apprehensive (the website isn't hugely confidence inspiring, as you note) but it all went smoothly. Did consider Grosvenor (I think you've discovered them too) but I think they were a little pricier and geared towards business sales.My understanding of the 'these are the only UK distributors and they won't sell outside the UK' is that Hakko insist upon it, probably to protect the ludicrous pricing or somesuch. It'll be interesting to see if you manage to get anywhere trying to obtain them for resale directly!

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 05, 2014, 05:32:47 pm
content: Well we will have to see what happens. I don't doubt dancap but like I say it's not very inspiring and you have to know exactly what you are after. Yes grossenover looked pretty useless.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 05, 2014, 11:19:11 pm
content: The transformer can put some people off but I was thinking of a small autotransformer, like the one linked below:http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/US-to-UK-step-down-voltage-converter-from-240-to-110-120-volts-AC-85-watts-/191024274400?pt=UK_TravelTickets_Accessories_RL&hash=item2c79ef1be0

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 06, 2014, 07:09:52 am
content: well it will just add sourcing costs and hakko are not very cooperative:Dear Mr. Simon Turner,Thanks for your contact.Possibly there may be some problems to be improved by us withour UK distributors, but we have no intention of increasing thenumber of Hakko distributor there at least right now.Your understanding is appreciated.Best Regards - Higashino*********************************HAKKO CORPORATION4-5, Shiokusa 2-chome, Naniwa-ku,Osaka 556-0024 JapanPhone: 81-6-6561-3225Fax: 81-6-6561-8466E-mail: sales@hakko.comURL:http://www.hakko.com

author: DL8RI
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2014, 07:58:40 am
content: Hi,they don't want to sell. That's stupid, but fine. There are a lot competitors with more expensive but better stations.As for me, I thought "fuck you, Hakko" 2 or three years ago.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 06, 2014, 08:26:55 am
content: Well I don't know what their game is, I can sell tenma shit any day and make money on it but I'd rather sell something people have confidence in as I don't like the hassle you get from selling junk. Once I have managed to fully evaluate the tenma station I'll decide if I'm going to sell them.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2014, 11:52:20 am
content: Quote from: Simon on March 05, 2014, 12:43:06 pmFor your information: Don't use Royal Mail if you want to send things to mainland Europe. It's more like Royal Snail. A lot of packages are delayed for weeks. If I order something from Germany it takes 2 or 3 days to arrive. From the UK it takes at least a week.Actually I don't know if there is any good courier in the UK besides Fedex or UPS. The regular mail companies are causing a lot of problems for UK based companies trying to sell their products abroad.

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2014, 12:28:11 pm
content: Sensor is in series with the heater, nothing special about that.If you want something more powerful get an AT315D;150W of power with an MCU-controlled SMPS.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 07, 2014, 12:43:48 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on March 07, 2014, 11:52:20 amOn the whole I don't have problems but so far i am selling components only so mostly goes by letter mail. There is also surface mail so maybe you have had problems with people using that instead of air mail (both royal mail)

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 07, 2014, 12:46:31 pm
content: Quote from: amyk on March 07, 2014, 12:28:11 pmThere is no sensor at all, I took the whole thing apart but having said that I think I made the mistake of not putting solder on my tip as soon as i heated it so heat is not transferring properly. I'm still testing it to see if it's any good. many people complaining may just be ignorant of how to solder.

author: neslekkim
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2014, 01:06:42 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on March 07, 2014, 12:43:48 pmI hav had shipments from UK, ranging from two days to 4 weeks, but mostly its like one week, which is acceptable, but longer, I guess it's the shipper who is not rushing it.Oh, and thats to Norway.