Help with TDS 7154B Front Panel Driver/Functionality - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / repair

author: denimdragon
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2017, 02:42:08 am
content: I have been working on this TDS 7154B for about 2 weeks or so. It didn't come with a hard drive so I had to add one. It came with Win XP Pro so I installed XP pro and installed Tekscope 5.1.3, Intel ethernet driver, TekVISA is installed, and currently I'm using the stock Windows video drivers.I was using TiN's post herehttps://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/tek-csa7404-repair-projecton the CSA 7404 as a reference for drivers as the systems are similar. However, I can't get the Front panel to work with the Front Panel V.1.0 driver. I'm not sure if it's me or the driver won't work for this scope.I also couldn't get the display driver to work either. If anyone has any info, it would be greatly appreciated. I need the front panel control to work in order to check the rest of the scopes functionality. I purchased this scope to be my "ace in the hole" scope, but if I can't figure out this driver situation, I'll have to pull the remaining strands of hair out of my head. NO ONE wants that, I'm ugly enough as it is

author: Jwalling
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 17, 2017, 09:27:53 am
content: I think I can help. Try these front panel drivers and we'll go from there.What is the graphics chip?

author: Jwalling
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 17, 2017, 09:35:35 am
content: Here's a screen shot of a Ghost image I have for the TDS7104B.Maybe the Tvia display driver is what you need?

author: Jwalling
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 17, 2017, 09:39:11 am
content: It's only 848KB zipped, so here it is.

author: denimdragon
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2017, 01:31:15 pm
content: Quote from: Jwalling on July 17, 2017, 09:39:11 amThis driver worked for the video! Tekscope is showing waveforms (even if it's just straight lines. It's great to see some progress). Also the Tiva chip is what's on the Bridge Board. That's one down thanks to you J.Also, I'm thinking that I am trying to install the front panel driver the wrong way. I'm not a genius when it comes to that. I have been right clicking the .inf file and then clicking "Install" from the drop down menu. TiN had told me that the front panel should show up in device manager as a USB device but I didn't see any "?" by the USBs in device manager like I did with VGA controller and PPC board. I have looked but can't find it. Is my approach all wrong? I was thinking I could hunt it down but I haven't been able too.Below I have some pics. The first one is of how DM looked prior to the Tiva Driver install a few minutes ago. The second one is after the Tiva driver. The other pictures are of device manager USB and HID on the tree and also the error message in TekScope concerning the Front panel. I really think I'm not installing the driver properly for FP.Thanks again for your help J.

author: Jwalling
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 17, 2017, 01:36:12 pm
content: You need to find the FP USB device in device manager, right-click on it, and select update driver. Point to the inf file.

author: denimdragon
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2017, 01:43:38 pm
content: Quote from: Jwalling on July 17, 2017, 01:36:12 pmIt should be one of these USB branches I have marked in the picture correct?There's only 4 physical USB ports on the back panel, I'm thinking that the 5th one is the FP?

author: Jwalling
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 17, 2017, 01:51:32 pm
content: Quote from: denimdragon on July 17, 2017, 01:43:38 pmNot sure and I don't have a B scope at the moment to check. It won't be the Intel or mass storage device...Bring up the properties on the others and get the VID (vendor ID). You're looking for a Tek device.You can go here:https://usb-ids.gowdy.us/read/UD/Tektronix is 0699EDIT: There may be others - those are just the ones that begin with 0!I seem to have two versions. I'll put them both here. I think the one I posted previously is 2.0

author: Jwalling
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 17, 2017, 02:10:41 pm
content: The 2.0 driver appears to be for%USB\VID_0699&PID_0101.DeviceDesc%=TekFPUsb.Dev, USB\VID_0699&PID_0101The 1.0 driver appears to be for%USB\VID_0699&PID_0101.DeviceDesc%=TekFPUsb.Dev, USB\VID_0699&PID_0101So they are for the same device; just an updated driver in 2.0

author: denimdragon
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2017, 02:26:40 pm
content: Quote from: Jwalling on July 17, 2017, 02:10:41 pmOk. I'm about to check now.

author: denimdragon
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2017, 05:11:33 pm
content: So I couldn't find anything in the device manager saying FP USB. I think when I disconnected the ribbon cable that goes from the miniATX board (Intel D865GLC FYI) to the PPC board, I probably have them mixed up. 2 of the headers are marked "FP USB 1" and "FP USB 2". One of these was used for the floppy drive I believe. I removed it when I first started working on it and haven't plugged it up since. I took pictures but I have to dig them up.I'm thinking I have the ribbon cable plugged in the wrong header. Below is a picture of how it has been connected. If I'm looking for "FP USB device in device manager", my reasoning tells me that it would most likely be 1 of the 2 headers labeled FP USB. The only difference is the pins are reversed on the "Front Panel" header and the regular FP USB. Also FP USB is a common protocol bus isn't it? I'm thinking, in theory, that either one should work. It shouldn't be any different that FP USB for adding SD card slots or additional USB ports to the front of a desktop PC build. I'm I thinking correctly?

author: Jwalling
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 17, 2017, 05:45:19 pm
content: In device manager,  [Devices by connection]Drill down to the USB devices and expandall of them.Now unplug and plug in the front panel cable. Each time you do this, you should see a device appear and disappear and device manager will flicker/update a bit as this happensDo you see this happen?

author: denimdragon
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2017, 05:46:15 pm
content: About to check.

author: denimdragon
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2017, 06:08:18 pm
content: Quote from: Jwalling on July 17, 2017, 05:45:19 pmNo change in the the Device manager tree. Prior to this, I also check the header ribbon cable and the flat ribbon cable that goes to the Front panel PCB, so I know both of my cable are good.

author: Jwalling
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 17, 2017, 06:15:36 pm
content: Quote from: denimdragon on July 17, 2017, 06:08:18 pmThen you have a hardware problem that you will need to resolve.EDIT: what about +5VDC power to the FP? Getting that?For now, I would use a mouse or the touchscreen and least verify it passes diagnostics and SPC. No sense worrying about the front panel until at least those are passing...

author: denimdragon
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2017, 06:32:24 pm
content: Quote from: Jwalling on July 17, 2017, 06:15:36 pmI was thinking that the front panel could be bad. All the LEDs are lit on the front panel, but I will poke around with my DMM. I'll run the test first. I got this scope for a deal (really I steal) when I was in NM last month. I also purchased some other Tek scopes to practice on, but this was one I wanted to learn how to repair because it's newer, and to use it for school. I'll do some checking around and see what I can come up with.Is there any literature on this model or the similar models? I know that the TDS520 is the only reference I can somewhat use for the others, but all I have for this one is the service manual. Thanks again for your help.

author: Jwalling
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 17, 2017, 06:53:38 pm
content: Quote from: denimdragon on July 17, 2017, 06:32:24 pmCould be the FP PCB. Since the LEDs are lighting up, power is probably OK. That leaves you with the DAT+ and DAT- signals. Can you trace them out end to end?If the USB ports have the same pin-out (and if they're on the motherboard they will) try another port while observing the device manager.The TDS520B schematic will not be of help... And there's no schematics for these unless you have an inside connection at Tek.

author: denimdragon
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2017, 07:05:47 pm
content: Quote from: Jwalling on July 17, 2017, 06:53:38 pmI'm going to check those a report back.

author: denimdragon
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2017, 07:07:13 pm
content: This the pinout for the headers.

author: Jwalling
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 17, 2017, 07:38:58 pm
content: Quote from: denimdragon on July 17, 2017, 07:07:13 pmIs that pdf from the motherboard manual or the scope service manual?

author: denimdragon
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2017, 07:40:38 pm
content: Here's the self-test results. Where can I look to see the log like the TDS7XX series?-Pinout from motherboard-

author: Jwalling
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 18, 2017, 09:27:25 am
content: Quote from: denimdragon on July 17, 2017, 07:40:38 pmThat doesn't look good. How about running SPC?Some debug info may be had through the serial console port. I think the B scopes have one, but I'm going from memory and I've only worked on a couple of them... More info:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/tek-csa7404-repair-project/

author: denimdragon
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2017, 01:12:49 pm
content: I was afraid you were going to say thatI did a little searching online last night to try to find out more about this scope. I didn't realize how expensive the TCA adapters are. I looked on ebay and the prices were $150 and up. I can't imagine prices if new (if the are still available from Tek). This started me to thinking that maybe this scope is too expensive for my needs right now. I didn't have the chance to poke around with my DMM last night but I will check around today. With the expenses associated with ownership of this scope, I'm seriously considering selling it. If it's a simple fix, then I might hang on to it but schools getting ready to start so I won't have time (or the money) to work on it.Either way, your assistance has been invaluable and I have learned a lot. I'll post back later on in the day after I check the FB_USB header for pinout vs Front_Panel pinout. I hope that solves it.

author: Jwalling
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 18, 2017, 01:23:28 pm
content: It couldn't hurt to re-seat all cables and board interconnects. Also inspect the board interconnects for bent pins. Lastly, run the signal path compensation (SPC)And of course, check all DC voltages. The service manual should have the test points

author: denimdragon
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2017, 04:53:12 pm
content: Failed SPC the first time. I'm going to check the voltages and see what I come up with.Quick question, what are the main causes for SPC failure?

author: Jwalling
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 18, 2017, 05:23:13 pm
content: Quote from: denimdragon on July 18, 2017, 04:53:12 pmTo be honest it could be anything! Relays, A/D converters, preamp, blown inputs from overload, bad ACQ memory, etc.You could lookup those error codes from the self test... Might want to visually inspect the entire ACQ board front and back. You could get lucky.

author: denimdragon
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2017, 06:17:22 pm
content: Quote from: Jwalling on July 18, 2017, 05:23:13 pmI will definitely take a look at it.

author: andy2000
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 20, 2017, 02:42:16 pm
content: Quote from: Jwalling on July 17, 2017, 01:51:32 pmIt could be one of those USB Composite Devices. Check the hardware IDs and compare to what's in the INF file for the front panel driver. It's normal for all the lights to be on until the driver has loaded.

author: denimdragon
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 21, 2017, 06:12:33 pm
content: Quote from: andy2000 on July 20, 2017, 02:42:16 pmAH! I thought about that. I am about to take a look now. Thanks for helping out. @Jwalling has been carrying me so far. I'll report back once I check.@Jwalling I checked the voltages Wednesday and everything was spot on. I also took pictures of the Acq Board and saw a few fishy looking details. Once I edit the photos down to size I will post them today.

author: denimdragon
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 21, 2017, 10:26:40 pm
content: Here are some pictures of the of the acq board. There is what seems to be residue on it and I'm thinking that it could be water damage. Also the photo with the pinkish dot makes me think it is a water damage indicator. I saw this often when I use to repair iPhone and iPad motherboards. Another possible indicator is the chip shown in the pic. It looks like that is rust on it. What do you think?

author: denimdragon
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2017, 04:55:20 am
content: Quote from: Jwalling on July 17, 2017, 06:53:38 pmI gave this a try (switched from FRONT PANEL to FP USB1) and it showed up in device manager. Once that occurred, I tried to install front panel by using "Update Driver" but that didn't work. I'm going to try right clicking the TekFP.inf file and select install while it is still connected to FP USB1. If that doesn't work, I'm going to take a look at the BIOS and see what options I may have.Another thing that crossed my mind while reading the manual for the D865GLC was that the FRONT PANEL header can also be used for audio. I'm pretty sure this ATX motherboard is off the shelf, but I believe it has a custom BIOS designed for the TDS 7154B. Can anyone verify this?

author: denimdragon
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2017, 11:12:38 am
content: I did a little more research last night and I think that the NVRAM is the problem. The scope is 13 years old and when I purchased it, it had been sitting up in a warehouse. It couldn't hurt to change it. My question is will this one work from mouser?http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Maxim-Integrated/DS1245Y-120+/?qs=0Y9aZN%252bMVCVf6XAzbZp3eg%3D%3DThe "+" is my only concern. I just want to make sure because I'm paying for overnight shipping and I would like to order today so that I can install it tomorrow. Also, I would like to solder a socket here so it can be swapped out easily in the future and I'm not sure which to purchaseBattery below.

author: Jwalling
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 23, 2017, 01:25:54 pm
content: The "plus" doesn't matter. It would work fine.If you're concerned about the battery, I wouldn't be. Those devices have two batteries in them, and I've never seen one with dead batteries. And I've seen ones that are 20 years old.If the NVRAM dies, the scope application would no longer boot up - it would hang.

author: denimdragon
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2017, 11:02:16 pm
content: Quote from: Jwalling on July 23, 2017, 01:25:54 pmI only see one on the PowerPC board. Is there one on another board? I'm in the process of removing all boards from the chassis and just give it a good overhaul. I'll still order and swap it out and put sockets in place but if there's 2, then hell, I need to order 2!I'm not one to leave anything to chance (that can be a hindrance at times but I still manage to learn a helluva lot during the process, which is the end goal anyway). I decided this morning that I'm already too deep down the rabbit hole to stop now, I might as well see it through all the way.Once I disassemble it and have everything laid out, I will take detailed pictures and post them here for reference. That way anyone can see what I see. I just need to figure out how I can post them. I will most likely host them on my server.On another note, I dug up the schematics for the Intel 865G/865GV/865PE/865P chipset from my old desktop hdd I used for computer builds and repairs a decade ago, and still had most of my schematics. I didn't think about it 'til this morning when I was wondering why that chipset look so familiar. It was also used as a OEM Gateway board (can't remember which was which but the schematic is intel) and there was a conflict with the rear panel USB stacks. If you RMA'd an intel D865 with 2+2 stacks, sometimes you would get 4+2 which caused a shield mismatch. PITA situation but it stuck in my head thus, I was able to remember I have the schematic for this boardThis way I can do a little more digging.It would be great if I had a way to test the actual front panel to see if it is functioning properly, other than having another scope. How much did these things cost when they were new anyway?

author: Jwalling
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 24, 2017, 10:17:34 am
content: Quote from: denimdragon on July 23, 2017, 11:02:16 pmThe Dallas chip on the PPC board has *two* batteries internally, is what I'm saying. Not sure what they cost new, but I'd bet more than $30K.

author: denimdragon
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2017, 05:30:44 pm
content: Quote from: Jwalling on July 24, 2017, 10:17:34 amOh ok. I remember reading that here somewhere.New development. Looks like I'm going to have to shut this project down. The boss (AKA my wife) chewed me a new one this morning as I have amassed quite the collection of test gear (not to mention more is on the way but I haven't told her... yet. It may be a wise choice not too) and some has managed to trickle into her areaI was given an ultimatum and for the sake of sanity, I have decided to keep the peace. I would have loved to hang on to this project and keep playing with it, but with both of us returning to school next month, the points she made are valid, and I have 2 other Tek scopes left that or easier for me to repair plus, there's far more information available here in the forum for those. They are the TDS 6,7xx series, so the 520 schematic will help with that.It's been a very good learning experience for me and I hope to get something similar to this in the future or a CSA@Jwalling you have been a great help and I have learned a lot! Thanks to you also @andy2000

author: denimdragon
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2017, 05:44:54 am
content: @Jwalling It's has to the front panel keypad. I've been hard at it since I did a little kissing up (and begging) earlier. I was putting the scope back together and realized I fell into "...a trap for young players". All this time when the scope was somewhat functional, I had J182 unplugged and was moving the ribbon cable back and forth for the front panel. Being the brilliant idiot that I am, I never thought to look at this like a PC front panel. For some reason I thought Front Panel for the ATX meant something else for ATXs when they are used in scopes. Don't ask me why.Anyway, I was putting the scope back together and I plugged in FP_USB 1 header, J182 to the PPC, and the other line to the floppy. I went to boot the scope, PPC Seg cycled and stopped on "L" so I know it was waiting on further instructions from the system, but the ATX would not fire up, so I went through the process of elimination and started unplugging things. First the CD, then floppy, etc.. Finally I was down to the configuration that I had been using when the scope was running, except for J182. The scope still wouldn't boot (I pulled the ATX battery to get into the BIOS screen because it would not even do that. Front display stayed blank each time I went through an iteration).So this last time I went into the BIOS and checked the event log and saw "Keyboard not functional" dated all the way back to 2005! J182 is still plugged up, but I'm going to pull it and try and boot the scope and see if it boots. I'm also going to take a look at the keypad PCB and see if I spot anything. I hope this is the issue.*I also did a search on "keyboard not functional" related to the BIOS and had some hits. It seems that in 2005, there was a problem with the bios on some Gateway and some intel boards, but I know this is a custom BIOS as I ran the ATX isolated from the scope using a PC power supply and the Tektronix splash screen came up. It attempted to boot into XP but it just kept looping the Windows splash screen and progress bar. I'm sure it was try to talk to the bridge board which wasn't there. I did that just to make sure the ATX was ok and I hadn't botch anything. Anyone have the bios for this and the install utility?

author: denimdragon
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2017, 07:35:37 am
content: I kept the BIOS error log up for quite a while studying it and thinking what could it be. I changed the time settings again as I have been doing with each CMOS battery pull and saved the settings. I wanted to try one more time before I disconnected J182. I let the scope reboot and this happened...

author: andy2000
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2017, 03:12:35 pm
content: The front panel connector on the ATX motherboard is just like on a PC (power and reset buttons, HDD LED, power LED). It's probably only used to turn on the ATX motherboard, and possibly the power light. The front panel USB header should be what connects to the scope's front panel. The keyboard errors in the log could simply be that there was no keyboard connected to the scope during use.

author: denimdragon
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2017, 03:03:28 am
content: Quote from: andy2000 on July 25, 2017, 03:12:35 pmYeah, I found out the hard whybut the good thing about it is that I learned a lot. These scopes are really powerful to be so old. I'm still on the hunt for a daily driver and I know everyone talks about Rigol, but the thing about it is it doesn't have near the technical support that Teks have. I do like the fact that it (7154B) is PC based and NORMALLY, I'm pretty good with PCs. I just had a huge brain fart. I appreciate the help on getting it up and running, but it will be a while before I can play with it again because I need to get a set of TKA-BCs. There are still some issues with it so it's a long term project. Until then, I'm going to see if I can find a good everyday scope.

author: andy2000
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2017, 05:47:08 pm
content: For a general purpose scope, I'd probably trade down to a TDS7104B unless you really need 1.5 GHz BW. It has normal high impedance BNC inputs, so it works with ordinary probes. There are active adapters for your scope, but they're expensive and only have 500 MHz BW. I'd stick with the B version if you can since it has a much better PC motherboard and a higher resolution display.

author: denimdragon
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2017, 07:13:38 pm
content: Quote from: andy2000 on July 26, 2017, 05:47:08 pmI'm going to look into those. The probe and accessory cost for this one was my main concern. By me being in school and being uncertain which area I'm specializing in, I don't want to be handicapped with a BW issue later down the road. A lot of people say that's overkill but I'm of the mindset better to have and not need than need and not have.