EEVblog 1637- Solar Freakin Space Mirrors - Reflect Orbital DEBUNKED - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 02, 2024, 11:03:02 pm
content: Reflect Orbital wants to put reflecting mirrors in space to sell sunlight to solar farms after dark. The numbers work out exactly as you expect them to. It's Solar Freakin' Space Mirror time!https://www.reflectorbital.com/BenNBuilds baloon test video:First Principles interview with Ben Nowack:S3 Interview video with Reflect Orbital:S3 2nd interview with Ben Nowack & Tristan Semmelhack :Space.com article:https://www.space.com/orbiting-mirror-boost-solar-power-productionClimateCapital investment:https://www.climatecapital.co/portfolioUnderstanding the Duck Curve:https://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy16osti/65023.pdfReal time US energy price tracker:https://www.iea.org/data-and-statistics/data-tools/real-time-electricity-tracker00:00 - Reflect Orbital, Sunlight After Dark01:18 - Ben Nowack from BenNBuilds Youtube channel & the baloon test02:55 - Sun synchronous polar orbit reflecting mirror satellites03:54 - A look at the website claims, a 5km sunlight spot for 4 minutes05:58 - This isn't new, the Russians did it with the Znamya 2, albeit unintentionally06:56 - Who's behind Reflect Orbital?08:12 - What is the Duck Curve?09:31 - CLAIM: A 10m x 10m satellite mylar reflector into a 12U Cubesat10:09 - CLAIM: 10's to 100's if BILLIONS of dollar per year revenue!10:35 - CLAIM: $50/MWh energy sale price after dark11:18 - CLAIM: $175k/year revenue from each satellite & launch costs11:58 - CLAIM: 200W/sqm? Err, in what universe?12:24 - DaveCAD calculations13:10 - 100kW maximum capture is reduced by the tilt angle14:05 - 5mW/sqm. FIVE MILLIWATTS! Is this a JOKE?14:50 - But WAIT, what if you combine and focus all the satellites?16:02 - It gets WORSE! Capacity Factor is a problem.18:14 - 20MWh/year WOW!, that's a lot, right? Right?19:22 - Even 20MWh/year become ZERO if it consumes more than it produces!20:09 - How did nobody do a back-of-the-envelope calculation?

author: Xena E
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2024, 11:35:19 pm
content: How does this compare with the energy reflected by a full moon.I'm sorry, but lunatics have to be involved somewhere, all very teslaesque.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 03, 2024, 12:01:52 am
content: Quote from: Xena E on September 02, 2024, 11:35:19 pmRoughly the same energy per sqm received on earth. Single digit milliwatts.

author: schmitt trigger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2024, 12:31:50 am
content: This “breakthrough” has received significant attention on the interwebs.And the unanimous response has been: WTF?I wonder how many investors have been fooled already.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 03, 2024, 03:19:07 am
content: Quote from: schmitt trigger on September 03, 2024, 12:31:50 amJust the one so far according to crunchbase

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2024, 03:46:45 am
content: This one is good.Good thing that it's complete BS though - because this idea taken to a level that would actually work could be a very nasty one.

author: hamdi.tn
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2024, 09:50:02 am
content: This world is gone madI think i'm starting my startup (by that I mean building a fancy website) to put mirrors on the moon, it's already doing just that

author: Zucca
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 03, 2024, 01:35:40 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on September 03, 2024, 03:19:07 amHonestly if somebody throw money at them thinking it is a good investment, the deserve to loose every single penny.

author: schmitt trigger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2024, 04:15:31 pm
content: There is a sucker born every minute. — PT Barnum

author: max_torque
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2024, 05:14:46 pm
content: Two words:Money LaunderingYes, it's true, today, a significant number of "ridiculous" investments are simply to use to launder large sums of money, irrespective of the losses!Say you have $500M of crime money (from what ever source) how do you get that into your account in a suitable fashion to avoid detection and obsfuscate the trail? Easy, set up a Grant or Fund, and invest in projects that have little chance of success (zero in this case) where few questions are asked, and launder that money through that route. Lots of financial tricks are possible for obsfuscation, and even if you get 10% of your money back, that's better than having none of it!Also worth nothing that the middle east investment funds are doing similar, not with crime money, but with fossil fuels money, which they are leveraging at what would appear to be a massive loss to simply divest the middle east out of it's fossil fuel dependence......

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2024, 05:53:34 pm
content: I thought Musk was already trialing this with his Starlink satellites.The astronomical community seem to think so anyway!https://www.space.com/spacex-starlink-satellites.html

author: golden_labels
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2024, 07:18:48 pm
content: As long as somebody betted their own money, I’m happy with that.From the government, which is funded from taxes and shouldn’t spend them frivolously, I expect some rationality. Local authorities pouring money into questionable experiments (e.g. solar roadways) is worth of outrage. Same for institutions, that manage funds on behalf of a specific cause.But if somebody wishes to burn their own money, I prefer them to be burned in a “certainly failed” enterprise, than in engines of their yacht.

author: iMo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2024, 07:27:55 pm
content: 30y back taxpayers already funded their government with that experiment..https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Znamya_(satellite)https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/how-russian-space-mirror-briefly-lit-night-180957894/

author: jancumps
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 03, 2024, 08:29:43 pm
content: I asked chatGPT how much energy is burned to get the satellite in low orbit: "Energy Spent: Approximately 1,223 kWh is required to launch a 12U CubeSat."(details on e14)

author: .RC.
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2024, 08:39:47 am
content: It is probably a ruse and in actual fact they are launching sun reflecting satellites complete with 400V death beam capacitors to produce super death ray devices in space. Then from the safety of their volcano lair complete with sharks with laser beams on their heads, will hold the world to ransom and demand....................................................................... one MILLION dollars.....

author: golden_labels
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2024, 05:56:21 pm
content: Quote from: iMo on September 03, 2024, 07:27:55 pmOf all things I’d expect from a government and governments like that didn’t deliver, I would say questionable scientific experiments are among the least offensive.That was also hardly a waste or comparable. NASAstill develops this technologyand JAXAsuccessfully used it for their Venus mission.We’ll probably never know the truth, but I also suspect Znamya to be a publicity thing for both the internal and the international audiences.

author: Xena E
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2024, 06:01:57 pm
content: Quote from: hamdi.tn on September 03, 2024, 09:50:02 amPV panels on the moon would of course be of a much more predictable performance than in some locations on earth due to the lack of atmospheric attenuation.(Ignoring the earth shadow thing).Just the tiny technical mater of actually getting the energy to earth.

author: 6gv5
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: September 04, 2024, 10:51:10 pm
content: Quote from: Xena E on September 04, 2024, 06:01:57 pmOh my... Now I can't unthink this vision about some company proposing PV panels on the Moon with beefy lasers beaming back the energy, then some enlightened politicians complaining that it could cut the Earth in two

author: Ranayna
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 05, 2024, 10:05:20 am
content: Reminds me of a disney comic i read as a kid, where someone used an orbital mirror satellite to melt the money in Scrooge's Money BinEven that knew better: They fokused the beam to a small point to actually get more energy to a smaller area, the mirror was specifically concave to do that.

author: Dr. Frank
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 05, 2024, 02:37:16 pm
content: Thanks Dave for another funny debunking.They can probably sell their idea to our German 'Federal Ministry for Economic Affairs and Climate Action", led by a guy from our 'Green' Party.They are always desperately seeking for Free Energy, as Sun and Wind do not send a bill, but they have the problem that at night and in winter time, Sun does not / rarely send light as well. They waste tax money on the craziest 'environment' projects worldwide.. and they can as well not do any reasonable calculations.Dave, could you please next time debunk our German 'Renewable Energy System'?THX - Frank

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 05, 2024, 10:52:54 pm
content: Quote from: Dr. Frank on September 05, 2024, 02:37:16 pmHow about you find a specific project that they invested in that you disagree with, that is relevant to this thread, and then post the details? Instead of just whining about xyz political party.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 07, 2024, 01:30:41 am
content: Quote from: Xena E on September 04, 2024, 06:01:57 pmAnd so we may want to ask why the heck we would bother having to cover about 400 000 km to get energy back to Earth, when merely installing PV panels on Earth distributed over the whole perimeter would receive energy 24/7 and would be much easier to share. Of course that would require worldwide agreements, which sounds complicated.So let's go to the moon because we can't agree on anything on Earth. Basically.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 07, 2024, 09:30:27 am
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on September 07, 2024, 01:30:41 amThe Australian government just approved a huge solar farm in Australia that will power Singapore via a HV cable.It was proposed a long time back.

author: Xena E
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 07, 2024, 01:27:16 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on September 07, 2024, 01:30:41 amWe wouldn't.But you could sell the Idea to some irony impaired politico for vast amounts of cash.It seems that the more costly and completely impractical something is the easier it is to get funding.It's just a case of keeping a straight face whilst you're asking for the money.

author: Kleinstein
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 07, 2024, 04:38:11 pm
content: It is odd that they find money for such crazy ideas, that are so far off from getting a benefit. I could imagine finding a few stupids, who don't belief in math, but these usually don't have big money. It would be only some corporate where the management does not really care about the loss, but get there bonus by the investment sum.A longer cable on earth makes way more sense. It some 1000-1600 km to get 1 hour shift for the sun. Especially in the desert the area to install extra PV is usually plenty. A large grid can also average out weather related variations, not just the time zone. PV can be decentalized production, but it can still benefit a lot from a good grid. One can compare the grid to a form of storrage.

author: golden_labels
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 07, 2024, 08:42:35 pm
content: Stupid ideas like going from Europe to India through the Western Ocean? What a fool would do that, if every educated person knows the distance is 12 thousand nautical miles and it’s a certainly suicidal mission? And that idiot denies basic geographical knowledge, making Earth four times smaller than it is known to be. That stupid queen, who has fallen for this and invested money in the voyage.Oh, all the stupid ideas like designing a calculating machine! C’mon, even students can do back of the envelope calculations to see laws of mechanics would never let it work. Not to mention that crazy guy, who — oh my god — claimed Earth crosses celestial spheres and somehow nobody notices that. What an idiot, hahaha! Put him under home arrest./s

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 07, 2024, 08:52:17 pm
content: Directing sun light to areas at night may have unknown yet effects on wild life. Just throwing in another dimension here.

author: Xena E
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2024, 03:35:56 am
content: Quote from: Kleinstein on September 07, 2024, 04:38:11 pmAll true but stupid people withotherpeople's money exist, they are elected.

author: .RC.
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 13, 2024, 03:51:28 am
content: Quote from: Bud on September 07, 2024, 08:52:17 pmThe wildlife would already have been killed off by the solar farm construction.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 13, 2024, 03:58:43 am
content: FYI, the Reflect Orbital founder contacted me, he's a fan of the channel.Basically used the excuse that viabiliy is based on thousands of them up to 100m in size and not the 10m ones proposed. And that street lighting is potential market big market.And he urged me to re-run the numbers, I did, and it's still not viable. And I told him that even if they do get that prototype 10m array up, every potential customer is just going to laugh at the results.And any potential street lighting marketing is doomed to failure if just a handful of residents complain.I wished him the best though, and that I don't blame him for working on what I'm sure is a fun project using someone else's money.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 13, 2024, 04:57:16 am
content: the military applications however, it might be possible to use some much cheaper night vision if you have some illumination, on moonless nights. a grid square illuminator.this could level the playing field if you rent out light to poorly equipped armies on primitive colonized planetsthe sci-fi applications are endless! They might not be able to make 7th generation tubes on a deep space colony far beyond the local group, but they can string out some mirrors in space.I wonder what it would look like. Having a spaced based backup light for the megopolis of the future might be a real feature.

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 13, 2024, 08:56:45 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on September 13, 2024, 03:58:43 amGo to Alaska or northern Sweden/Norway and ask those people if they enjoy 24/7 light. Its straight up torture. If he had said lighting for farming, might have made a small amount of sense. and instead of saying "re-run the numbers" he could have provided the calculations he's done.Oh well...Quote from: coppercone2 on September 13, 2024, 04:57:16 amActually true but would never get off the ground if you mentioned something like that to investors.Even as is I wonder if they'd run into military security issues. The light can be theoretically focused down to a spot and burn targets right?

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 13, 2024, 09:44:21 pm
content: you could build it so it has a limited range of motion with a scafolding of some sort so it can't focus to dangerous power levels unless you heavily modify itThe more you need to focus it, the more expenisve and precise the control system needs to be and the more energy it needs to spend adjusting it etcif you don't need it super accurate you can make it kinda floppy so when adjustment thrusters fire its not really a solid plane and its OK if its a bit warped and stuff. If you are illuminating several km, it does not really matter, if you need to focus to a few meters it would probobly need to be a 100x over engineered design.https://jamesbond.fandom.com/wiki/Icarus

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 14, 2024, 01:52:10 am
content: Quote from: thm_w on September 13, 2024, 08:56:45 pmThat would requrie an extreme level of collimation an focussing which is not possible with their mylar foil design. And is probably not possible at all from orbit?

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 14, 2024, 01:55:09 am
content: it could also be a agricultural tool on other planets that are more distant from stars because theoretically its more reliable then reflectors that can be blown down by wind or somethingdoes green house corn grow on mars?Its kind of guaranteed your crop would not die because of a generator failure or fuel shortage...It seems like something that can be relatively scrounged, without too much precise mechanics and advanced stuff lol, relatively speaking. and you can turn it off if your space peons stop paying taxes. It also makes farm land theft hard, because if someone takes your bread basket, if you control space you can turn off the growing capabilities, meaning the belligerents can't incrementally seize outlying territory, or at least if they do, they will not gain anything from it to bolster their earnings. This reduces the likely hood of small annexings, and it leaves diplomatic channels open because its non violent and non expensive and 100% possible to restore

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 17, 2024, 04:05:38 am
content: Thunderf00t!

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2024, 06:07:39 am
content: by award winning crime reporter "Tony Pope"

author: Haenk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 05, 2024, 12:46:04 pm
content: Plus one; bonus points for being late to the game:https://virtussolis.space/

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 06, 2024, 11:58:45 am
content: Quote from: Haenk on October 05, 2024, 12:46:04 pmWhat the actual f...

author: Xena E
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2024, 07:15:35 pm
content: VerstusSolis:They have already managed to gain funding of £353,000 from the British Government because of their partnership with Bristol University.https://www.bristol.ac.uk/news/2023/june/space-solar-project.htmlComeon! WTF! They've convinced a fucking University that some cartoon frigging spaceship can provide 'energy security'.What are these shitheads at Bristol U smoking, what convinced them it was a good idea? Just because they got some Morgan Freeman soundalike to do their cartoon voice over maybe

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2024, 07:22:55 pm
content: Quote from: Xena E on October 06, 2024, 07:15:35 pmIt looks like the people at Bristol U are doing something reasonable. Seehttps://lyceanem.com. Applying this to power from space is where it gets iffy.

author: Xena E
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2024, 07:45:31 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on October 06, 2024, 07:22:55 pmYou're known by the company you keep, they proudly announce VirtusSolis as being an industry partner.I'll have to see if some acquaintances of mine are still there ... I'll bet they're allabout it if they know.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2024, 08:54:21 pm
content: Quote from: Xena E on October 06, 2024, 07:45:31 pmNotices like that get put out by publicity firms. They are unfiltered. Someone finances a useful tool from Bristol, they bleet about it. Someone uses the tool for something stupid, they bleet about it. I wonder if the actual technical people at Bristol have any idea about the existence of this announcement?

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 06, 2024, 09:59:34 pm
content: Quote from: Xena E on October 06, 2024, 07:15:35 pmBristol University isn't new to the EEVblog:

author: Xena E
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2024, 05:35:30 am
content: Quote from: coppice on October 06, 2024, 08:54:21 pmIt's straight off the official university websiteandthey were awarded the public money, they are proud partners, read the link:ItquotesDr Tim Pelham, directly:Dr Timothy Pelham, academic principle investigator, explained: “The concept depends upon the use of gigascale antenna arrays capable of delivering over 2GW of power from space onto similar gigascale antenna arrays either at sea or on the ground..."Here are his details, can also be found on the official university website:https://research-information.bris.ac.uk/en/persons/timothy-pelhamRegards,X

author: Xena E
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2024, 06:27:39 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on October 06, 2024, 09:59:34 pmPerhaps they could concentrate on developing an energy harvesting wristband?

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2024, 01:09:56 pm
content: Quote from: Xena E on October 07, 2024, 05:35:30 amYou've never had publicity people claiming you said things you never said? You need to get out, I mean slandered, more.People need to toe the line if they want to survive. Until I hear people freely talking in person I will hold judgement on them.

author: Xena E
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2024, 06:26:53 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on October 09, 2024, 01:09:56 pmSlandered? Yes I have.However the problem is that there's no deniability if you are asked to work on a feasibility study for something that is plainly beyond the laws of physics, and or economics, and you are clearly qualified to understand that, but because your organisation can realise a nice fat piece of public funding to 'find out' that it's not practical, do you validate it by doing theresearch?Is it legal? I don't know. Is it moral? Definitely not.Speaking generally, if an organisation is corrupt, then it's time to get out: toeing the line within an organisation is all very well if it doesn't harm your health, integrity, or liberty. A lot of people find themselves on the wrong side of the law by 'toeing the line'.As for judging people then I'll repeat "by association" they're happy to do the publicity.Are you in a position to say that the university press release was inaccurate? If so why give it such a new science spin? The money was in the bag, promoting it just makes themselves look like complete mutts.I just wish I could withhold income tax based on money that is wasted on and defrauded by this kind of wankery.RegardsX

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2024, 07:08:43 pm
content: Quote from: Xena E on October 09, 2024, 06:26:53 pmYou must have had the kind of truly blessed life that few of us have been able to enjoy. It must be fantastic. Most of us spend a huge amount to effort skirting around the bad stuff, trying to pay the bills.Quote from: Xena E on October 09, 2024, 06:26:53 pmNo, but I've seen people have to put up with so much crap in order to pay the bills I don't jump to judge people, and am loath to rely purely on third parties for information.Quote from: Xena E on October 09, 2024, 06:26:53 pmAh, so you are forced to put up with a lot of crap like the rest of us, in order to live in relative peace. You know you can avoid paying tax. There are consequences, but its possible.

author: Xena E
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2024, 08:17:29 pm
content: Quote from: Xena E on October 09, 2024, 06:26:53 pmQuote from: coppice on October 09, 2024, 07:08:43 pmNo. I've just managed to mostly make good career choices I suppose, on the occasion I'd not been able to resolve a problem with corporate BS and office archery I just found myself another job.It's only happened once, but what occurred was going to have me taking bame and sucking the mop for some shit that was caused by an unproductive member of another department. I got out before that happened it was their loss ultimately.Quote from: Xena E on October 09, 2024, 06:26:53 pmQuote from: coppice on October 09, 2024, 07:08:43 pmVery noble I'm sure. And if that's what a person is prepared to do for a quiet life it's up to them, but I've seen too many instances of people who enjoy being a bosses patsy, and pissing on others instead of doing real work. "To pay the bills".Quote from: Xena E on October 09, 2024, 06:26:53 pmQuote from: coppice on October 09, 2024, 07:08:43 pmI'm not sure what your point is, governments are prepared to waste money because it isn't theirs, and fraudsters are always on the lookout for free cash. Then I'm told that it's some twat putting up with crap from the man so he can pay his bills ... fuck that.Relative peace! you hit a nerve there! I pay tax but what for? My house gets broken into and I get threatened with a knife by the intruder just to have police tell me they can't attend after the event! but can get me some advice on household security and counselling, and they will give me a crime number, I have the fucking blokes face on security camera, and I'm told it's inadmissible evidence, and could I prove I was threatened with a knife?Any one tells me I pay tax to live in relative peace are fucked in the head.Sorry sweetie, you're probably a very nice person, I dont know you and I'm sorry I've hit a nerve, but you're talking out of your arse.Best regardsX

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2024, 08:55:14 pm
content: That's just the beginning, soon enough most public services, including the police, will be accessible only via chatbots that will eventually connect you with a real police officer only if the bot decides that your query requires that. By the time you've fought with the chatbot enough to drive you crazy, you'll need to contact mental health services, and it will be a chatbot too.And yes, all that still paid with your tax money."I'm sorry Daveeee"

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2024, 09:02:29 pm
content: Quote from: Xena E on October 09, 2024, 08:17:29 pmThe way the UK police are going we'll be back to vigilantes soon. You should have told the police he said some nasty words to you. They take action over that.

author: .RC.
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2024, 02:25:56 am
content: Quote from: coppice on October 09, 2024, 09:02:29 pmTell them they did not respect your pronouns. They would have senior scotland yard and interpol detectives on the case before lunch. Well that is provided they were only identify as anglo's committing the crime.

author: max_torque
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2024, 01:58:56 pm
content: Quote from: Xena E on October 06, 2024, 07:15:35 pmer, i'm not sure if you realise how .gov "future tech" funding works in the uk! It absolutely does not have to be in any way viable, practical and tbh, mostly isn't either. It's basically a way for commerical and educational organisations to get some money! Bristol partners with a commerical firm, they get funding. Pretty much that simple. I know it's b***cks, they know it's b****cks, hell, mostly even the government dept giving out the money knows it's b***cks, but they don't care. The money is there, to be spent in the UK, paying peoples salaries, and sometimes, very rarely, there might be a spin off or other idea that is commercially viable, but critically the grant funding is not dependant nor expectant on that outcome.......

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 29, 2024, 05:27:35 am
content: The founder Ben has finally replied to me and offered to show me internal documents so I can help critique their numbers. (the answer is of course no)He also said he'd quit immediately if he is wrong, but is sure he's right.He is adament that I am obsolutely wrong on this. He linekd in research from ESA and others:https://nebula.esa.int/content/pre-phase-system-study-commercial-scale-space-based-solar-power-sbsp-system-terrestrialhttps://www.reflectorbital.com/literaturehttps://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S030626192200527XI told him that capture area is capture area, the end.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 29, 2024, 05:39:13 am
content: The Znamya 2 was a20-metre wide space solar mirror. Znamya-2 was launched aboard Progress M-15 from Baikonur on 27 October 1992. After visiting the EO-12 crew aboard the Mir space station the Progress T-15 then undocked and deployed the reflector from the end of the Russian Progress spacecraft on 4 February 1993, next to the Russian Mir space station. The mirror deployed successfully, and, when illuminated, produced a5 km wide bright spot, which traversed Europe from southern France to western Russia at a speed of 8 km/s.The bright spot had a luminosity equivalent to approximately that of a full moon. Although clouds covered much of Europe that morning, a few ground observers reported seeing a flash of light as the beam swept by.I think that might be more useful then arguing about equation. The sun is 400,000 times brighter then a full moon. So I think that means if you had 400k of these units, they could provide sunlight to a 5km areagiven that its a soviet object (might be half assed), I think a safe figure is 300,000 unitsnot economical unless you can string it out like hanging bedsheets out of a runaboutBut I am starting to think that renting these out to illuminate towns at night might be a good idea (for a place like luxemburg), if they want to buy the moon, sell them the moon. Or a kinda promotional thing for something like high end camp grounds, then you can be guaranteed you will have a moon night, or maintaining illumination on harbors and stuff for cheaper security or just generally making something like a high end marina more pleasant.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 29, 2024, 08:04:27 am
content: He just emailed me another two times trying to convince me to imagine 10's of thousands of larger mirrors, booking hundreds of Starship launcher per year.I can image it, and it's delusional.

author: Xena E
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 29, 2024, 06:13:22 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on October 29, 2024, 08:04:27 amSounds like someone who is trying to attach themselves to some credibility.X

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 29, 2024, 10:27:53 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on October 29, 2024, 08:04:27 amIt's not just delusional; that very thought is terrifying.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 30, 2024, 01:46:56 am
content: Quote from: Xena E on October 29, 2024, 06:13:22 pmI don't think so. He is in fact a fan that's been watching for over a decade, and in his first email he mentioned that he hoped that if he ever made it into a video one day it would be the "exact opposite of solar freakin’ roadways".He's bummed that he and his idea became the focus of a debunking video, and I guess he's trying to correct that disappointment by trying to convince me otherwise.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2024, 03:37:00 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on October 29, 2024, 05:27:35 amI agree with you and Ben should quit immediately. Better to avoid becoming the next 'Holmes'. I didn't watch the entire video though. Did you venture into analysing the energy needed to launch a rocket to bring a satellite in orbit versus energy harvested? Probably notThe error in their reasoning is likely that they are sending energy down which can not be lost but they don't account for conversion losses combined with the large area the light is spread over. Receiving 5mW does nothing for a solar panel. Leakage currents in the panel itself and the inverter are probably 'consuming' more power.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2024, 03:46:06 pm
content: I can't help but feel these mirror concepts will reflect badly on their proponents.

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2024, 09:04:13 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on October 30, 2024, 03:37:00 pmThe cost of the launch is at 11:20. 150k or down to 30k, and claiming to make 175k revenue off that one launch, per year.If the finances made sense, then the environmental impact could be considered. But there is no need when this 175k claim was disputed by Dave.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2024, 09:17:49 pm
content: Quote from: thm_w on October 30, 2024, 09:04:13 pmTrue. Even if they would manage to get 50kW of useful energy to the ground 24/7, their projected (annual) revenue is 10 times higher than realistic. They probably calculated from what households are paying for electricity per kWh instead of what a large solar farm is receiving per kWh.

author: mikerj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 02, 2024, 10:46:19 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on October 29, 2024, 05:27:35 amThe final report from Esa has a small list of the most important requirements in section 3.1, one of which is:The minimum power density to activate the cells should higher than 200W/m2(sic)Perhaps Ben could show how he intends to achieve this with the proposed mirror area?

author: mikerj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 02, 2024, 10:47:58 am
content: Quote from: max_torque on October 14, 2024, 01:58:56 pmAn reputational damage doesn't matter a bit, provided the £££ keep flowing.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 02, 2024, 12:00:33 pm
content: Quote from: mikerj on November 02, 2024, 10:46:19 amIn our private correspondance the answer is always, more mirrors, bigger mirrors, thousands of them, Starship makes it cheap.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 02, 2024, 07:23:17 pm
content: Ben should join this thread and post his calculations on how he wants to achieve a decent power per surface area and the costs involved. IIRC another problem is that space in low earth orbit starts to become really crowded. They might be running out of space....

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 02, 2024, 09:22:26 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on November 02, 2024, 12:00:33 pmNot to be rude, but he may need some medication.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 02, 2024, 09:31:30 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on November 02, 2024, 12:00:33 pmIf his answer to every point made is more mirrors, I think that reflects very badly on him.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 03, 2024, 01:51:29 am
content: Quote from: coppice on November 02, 2024, 09:31:30 pmTo be fair, it's theonlyanswer. There is no magical way you can beat cature area, and he readily admits this.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 03, 2024, 02:50:43 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on November 03, 2024, 01:51:29 am"We lose money on every sale, but make it up in volume." comes to mind.

author: Xena E
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 03, 2024, 04:53:43 pm
content: The only way to prove extraordinary claims is to provide unequivocal proof. Self generated citation of engineering practicalities, costs and profitability isn't proof.This one just doesn't stack up, either in engineering or financial viability.Imagine trying to put this into space:https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivanpah_Solar_Power_FacilityThis isn’t personal:It's delusional, or fraudulent, they are the only two options.I'm sure Ben is clever enough to make a real contribution to the field without reaching for the stars.X

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 03, 2024, 05:03:33 pm
content: Quote from: Xena E on November 03, 2024, 04:53:43 pmTo be fair to the solar concentrator projects, I think their time has just passed. They started with experimental systems decades ago, when PV panels were not getting very far. They continued when PV panels were getting better, on the basis that many of the concentrator designs included enough thermal storage to operate through the night, and were in desert areas where the daytime is fairly predictable. On this basis they still had some merit. Now, even with storage, their costs are out of line with the alternatives. I believe IvanPah was a design floating around from a time when it might have made some sense as an experimental system, but only got funded when its window of opportunity had passed. This is quite common with many technologies. I don't know how people finally get suckered into providing funding just as the window is starting to close, but I can think of many cases of this happening.

author: Xena E
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 03, 2024, 06:22:22 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on November 03, 2024, 05:03:33 pmEverything has its day.... However they do work and the Spanish versions were returningprofitafter 5-6 years, the subject of this thread adds another layer of complexity and cost for harvesting energy for no advantage, a lot of renewables wouldn't exist if it weren't for government grants and people being 'suckered' in: it's all in the name of energy securityIt's all free energy but it costs cash to collect and distribute. Mirrors in the sky to capture another few minutes worth of energy each day are not going to solve anything.X

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 03, 2024, 06:33:42 pm
content: Quote from: Xena E on November 03, 2024, 06:22:22 pmI think those Spanish systems cooked the accounting very heavily to end up with an apparent profit. If you get some revenue, and ignore enough costs, many things seem to turn a profit, until you run out of other people's money.

author: Xena E
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 03, 2024, 07:48:14 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on November 03, 2024, 06:33:42 pmIf true it just underlines the point that adding layers of unnecessary complexity to a project isn't going to help the economics.X

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 03, 2024, 10:10:25 pm
content: Quote from: Xena E on November 03, 2024, 06:22:22 pmThat's the thing.All the complexity and cost of deploying big space based solar reflecting mirrors, with all the associated reflection and spot losses plus restrictions on capture area, just to get a little bit extra hour or two of power around dawn and dusk on existing solar systems, and then it's only for systems in the middle of nowhere because if one person complains about the extra light screwing up whatever, it's toast, it's just on the face of it, an impractically dumb idea. Virtually every other idea is better and more pratcical than this. It doesn't pass the sniff test.

author: 5U4GB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 06, 2024, 03:18:43 am
content: Just saw an appropriate comment reposted from somewhere or other, "Space Nuttery should be in the DSM".