When is it okay to use copper-clad aluminum (CCA) wire? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / beginners

author: Jay112
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2015, 12:44:54 pm
content: I purchased a roll of 1,000 feet of 8-conductor wire from ebay. I was especially careful to make sure it didn't say it was CCA. This item was listed as "solid copper", even though this same seller very clearly specified when their other products were CCA. Only when I got it and cut it did I realize it was CCA.Is CCA okay to use in some low-voltage (3v, 5v, 12v) projects? Do you have personal experience having problems with it? Is it okay for very short runs? Is it unreliable for sending certain kinds of data signals?Thanks!

author: Ian.M
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2015, 01:01:14 pm
content: Its insulated and it conducts electricity so is 'good enough' for some applications. However it will rapidly degrade if the terminations are exposed to significant humidity,and wont stand up to repeated flexing and may have problems with compression terminals loosening due to cold flow, so use it indoors for low current projects you don't give a s--t about. Its long-term reliability is likely to be less than that of a bought US congress-critter.

author: rdl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2015, 02:40:04 pm
content: If this is something you just bought recently, you should go to ebay and request a refund or replacement.

author: SharpEars
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 10, 2015, 03:18:23 pm
content: Quote from: Jay112 on December 10, 2015, 12:44:54 pmYou should absolutely get a refund and keep the wire! This is deceptive advertising and the seller should pay for it.Did this come from a Chinese/Hong Kong seller??As for when is it OK? I would personally never use CCA unless you absolutely don't care about current capability, resistance and voltage drop. At the least you will need to calculate that into your wire length characteristics.

author: Seekonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2015, 04:41:30 pm
content: Is that eight individual insulated conductors? Never heard of CCA in small wire.

author: Jay112
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2015, 04:44:08 pm
content: Thanks everyone for the advice and responses!This is the one I bought:http://www.ebay.com/itm/390852744513but it was only $40 when I bought it. I'll come back to write more later.

author: Ian.M
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2015, 04:46:03 pm
content: I've seen some right s--tty bell-wire before now. Its sometimes copper clad steel, and you find out when you b----r up your precision dykes cutting it!You are lucky it wasn'thttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tinsel_wirewhich is truely the invention of the devil if you don't have the right crimps and tooling.How did you identify it as CCA? Take a short offcut of the bare strands, scrape them and boil in washing soda in a glass beaker or jar. CCA will disintegrate, copper or copper clad steel will not. Copper clad steel is most easily identified with a small magnet.

author: Seekonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2015, 04:50:33 pm
content: That was my first thought when I saw it, STEEL Get out a magnet. I think a lot of PC power supply wire is steel. It solders like crap.

author: Jay112
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2015, 05:31:02 pm
content: Wow. I just tested it with a magnet, and the magnet sticks!I've never heard of copper-clad steel. (There's definitely a copper-colored layer on the outside, and the inside looks like a silver color).

author: Ian.M
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2015, 05:38:39 pm
content: Ok, so its got over 5 times the resistance of copper, so its very poor for long runs. OTOH its mechanically self-supporting, given appropriate support at its terminations, but no-one in their right mind would use flat 8 wire phone cable in a self supporting application as it would be likely to start galloping in the breeze like the Tacoma Narrows bridge leading to early failure.Take a picture of a magnet stuck to it, Screen grab the auction before it goes away and raise a dispute.

author: Jay112
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2015, 05:44:41 pm
content: Okay, thanks for all the advice!I think I purchased it just a week ago, so it's probably not too late. Plus they claim to have a 30-day guarantee on the page.Can you guys think of anything that 1,000 feet of CCS could be used for? Or is it just pretty much junk?

author: Jay112
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2015, 05:49:08 pm
content: Also, out of curiosity, do you think the properties of the wire would be decent/improved if I twisted together 4 of the conductors, making it like a thicker 2-conductor wire?

author: Ian.M
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2015, 05:51:06 pm
content: Making 200 $1 5' cables using child labour in a 3rd world sweatshop! <LOL>If you twist it it will probably just break, and you'll also increase its self-inductance.Strip it out of the outer jacket as required and use it for tying plants in the garden etc.

author: Jay112
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2015, 05:57:16 pm
content: That's a great idea to basically just use it as twisty-ties! That's like 8,000 feet of twisty-ties for $40!All my friends will be receiving twisty-ties for Christmas!

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2015, 06:07:03 pm
content: I came across copper clad steel wire decades ago as a youngster. It was, as noted above, used as the telephone drop cable from the pole to the house (it was two conductor figure-8 insulated cable). By making it from steel it had the tensile strength to be strung over a distance without breaking.

author: Jay112
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2015, 06:15:26 pm
content: I've never dealt with an ebay dispute before. Do you guys think it's best to just go through the return process with the seller? Or is there some other way to handle this?It was shipped from NY, and their store page says that the return shipping will be deducted from the total amount refunded.

author: rdl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2015, 06:25:38 pm
content: You want to return the item because it didn't match the description. Last time I had to do this, the seller had to pay the return shipping. I think this is the case anytime the seller is the cause of the problem. If you just changed your mind or something like that, then you would pay.

author: moya034
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2015, 06:27:33 pm
content: Copper Clad Steel wire is very useful for constructing wire antennas. The Steel is less likely to stretch and detune the antenna, or break. It often goes by the trade name of "Copper-Weld". If you get stuck holding the bag, start contacting your local Ham Radio Clubs, they may be interested in it.

author: Ian.M
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2015, 06:34:56 pm
content: Follow the EBAY dispute process to the letter, paying particular attention to time limits. DO NOT communicate directly with the seller outside of EBAY. DO NOT accept anything other than a full refund through EBAY as it was fraudulently described as solid copper. You cannot trust anything the seller promises or offers, because it certainly was not as described. Do not be talked into waiting a few more days for another reel of supposedly the good stuff.Demand the seller pays the shipping/arranges collection, before shipping it because it is clearly not as described and as copper is over twenty times more valuable than steel, the mis-description is more likely to be fraudulent than accidental.

author: Jay112
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2015, 06:50:54 pm
content: Thanks rdl and Ian.M and Ian.B!And thanks moya for the info about the antennas!I started the return process just now, including a picture of magnets stuck to the roll, and a difficult-to-take picture trying to show how the insides of each conductor are whitish instead of copper.

author: Jay112
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2015, 06:54:38 pm
content: Also before I knew what it was, I was getting about 25 Ohms of resistance for a 40-foot run.

author: RobertBG
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2015, 07:16:51 pm
content: Doesn't it bug you when Ebay sellers cant label their products correctly,it is really one of my pet peeves yet others seem to not careEbay really protects the buyer so I think you'll be fine,just document it and be sure to give the seller a chance to correct the situation.

author: Jay112
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2015, 07:21:47 pm
content: Thanks Robert!I just started using ebay about 9 months ago, after I got involved with electronics (starting with arduino stuff). Before that I was mostly using *gasp* Amazon.So far this has been my only experience with mislabeled items on ebay.

author: Towger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2015, 08:19:57 pm
content: I had the same problem with a 100m roll of 'solid copper' 1.5mm speaker cable I bought off eBay last year. The first clue was how light it was when I picked it up. I started a dispute, sent it back and got a refund.

author: Cliff Matthews
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 11, 2015, 01:13:36 am
content: That sure is odd cable.. It looks like wire from phone cords we Canadians call satin cable. What a rip-off!

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2015, 09:40:47 am
content: I'd never heard of copper clad aluminium or steel wire until this thread. It sounds like horrible stuff and I wouldn't use it for anything electrical.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2015, 09:49:05 am
content: Quote from: Jay112 on December 10, 2015, 05:31:02 pmCopper clad steel wire is extensively used in the telephone industry. You can string it above ground with stable results. If you use pure copper wire it will stretch and sag over time. I guess they could have gone for copper conductor cores with an separate steel core for stability, but telephone connections from a pole are via a wire which has 2 cores of copper clad steel. At least, that's the case in the UK and various Asian countries where I have checked.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2015, 09:52:54 am
content: Quote from: Ian.M on December 10, 2015, 04:46:03 pmTinsel may be a pain to terminate, unless you use the right crimp tool, but what else could give a such long life in applications like telephone handset cords? I wish more headphones used tinsel leads.

author: dom0
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2015, 10:11:06 am
content: Quote from: Jay112 on December 10, 2015, 05:44:41 pmCCS for -serious- applications is only used in RF. The steel core wouldn't conduct at RF anyway, so it doesn't matter it's steel. Bonus is increased toughness of the cable.Cheap comms cable is sometimes CCA, not exactly the same thing as CCS. CCS will break LSA terminals, CCA somewhat works with them. Not reliably, though.Cables with steel wires beside copper wires are used for cables that need to be self-supporting, for example military field telephones / low speed communication lines. The Bundeswehr has tons of that stuff and is selling it off, they're cables with two wires made up from two straight steel conductors with two copper conductors wound around them. This way the steel conductors carry all the tensile force, while the copper conductors don't see any force at all.And then there's the whole world of cables with steel-reinforced sheaths, steel pulling cores and so on-

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2015, 10:47:06 am
content: I'd imagine there's a difference between real copper/steel wire which has a reasonable amount of copper and a steel core just for mechanical support and fake cable which is just copper plate.Measure the resistance and if it's very near to that of steel cable then that's what it is.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2015, 11:20:19 am
content: Quote from: coppice on December 11, 2015, 09:49:05 amNope, sorry, we use steel strainer wires in the cable, not copper clad steel. I have a whole drum of the stuff.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2015, 11:23:54 am
content: Quote from: Monkeh on December 11, 2015, 11:20:19 amWhen did that start? I left the UK in 1992, but new installs at that time used copper coated steel for the wire from the pole to the house..

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2015, 11:32:13 am
content: Quote from: coppice on December 11, 2015, 11:23:54 amMid 90s at the latest. They went on quite the campaign of replacing all the old stuff.Frankly, though, it's the controlled twist which makes the new stuff worthwhile, nothing to do with the copper. Although BT 'engineers' are still daft enough not to be aware of skin effect at DSL frequencies..

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2015, 11:37:41 am
content: Quote from: Monkeh on December 11, 2015, 11:32:13 amI was never aware of the old stuff being problematic and in need of replacement. It general worked fine for decades.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2015, 11:41:24 am
content: Quote from: coppice on December 11, 2015, 11:37:41 amIt's drastically unsuited for DSL for performance and radiation reasons. It's also not as weather resistant as the new stuff, and required multiple drops for extra lines.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2015, 11:50:37 am
content: Quote from: Monkeh on December 11, 2015, 11:41:24 amIf the big push was in the mid 90s it was too early to have been driven by the needs of DSL, so what initially drove what must have been an expensive change?

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2015, 11:53:20 am
content: Quote from: coppice on December 11, 2015, 11:50:37 amThe new cable type was introduced around then, the replacement became much more rapid as DSL rolled out.BT have, at times, attempted to future-proof their network. Usually they fail quite badly, but they have tried.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2015, 11:55:51 am
content: Quote from: Monkeh on December 11, 2015, 11:53:20 amThat makes sense. BT, and the GPO before it, was always a rather unfortunate mix of the progressive and the regressive.

author: SharpEars
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 11, 2015, 02:40:41 pm
content: Quote from: Jay112 on December 10, 2015, 05:31:02 pmCopper-clad steel sold as solid copper?? Get a refund man!! This is the absolute worst crap on the face of the earth.

author: SharpEars
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 11, 2015, 02:41:53 pm
content: Quote from: Jay112 on December 10, 2015, 05:44:41 pmWhat can copper clad steel be used for? To hang oneself - that's about it.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2015, 02:43:16 pm
content: Quote from: SharpEars on December 11, 2015, 02:41:53 pmOr for phone lines. Or low speed data lines (or, actually, high speed in some carefully considered use cases). And so on.Yes, the stuff has uses.

author: SharpEars
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 11, 2015, 02:44:35 pm
content: Quote from: Jay112 on December 10, 2015, 06:15:26 pmHere is what to do:You threaten the seller via "I have a question about item details" to have him delisted from eBay for selling counterfeit goods. 99% of the time this will get Som Ting Wong to just refund you and you keep the goods. By the way, just because your particular seller claims to be in the US doesn't matter. You're just dealing with Som Ting Wong's cousin in New York/LA, Fut Dah Bill. The goods are still coming from Shenzhen.The other 1% of the time when the seller refuses to refund, you actually follow through on your threat and start a dispute with eBay saying you received a non-genuine good. If eBay has to step in the seller is punished pretty harshly, so they will always just refund you at that point not to deal with the draconian eBay consequences.The above guarantees that 100% of the time you will keep the item(s) and get a full-refund.In fact, Ipurposelypurchase goods marked as genuine/original/authentic which are obviously Shenzhen fakes to get them for free after disputing their authenticity. I don't even feel bad doing it - it's the only way to put these thieves out of business.

author: SharpEars
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 11, 2015, 02:46:02 pm
content: Quote from: Jay112 on December 10, 2015, 06:54:38 pmWhoa, no way! That's some rope you got there.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2015, 02:47:05 pm
content: Quote from: SharpEars on December 11, 2015, 02:44:35 pm....Or you simply follow the normal returns procedure and file a claim with eBay if they don't work with you, instead of threatening needlessly..

author: SharpEars
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 11, 2015, 02:47:29 pm
content: Quote from: RobertBG on December 10, 2015, 07:16:51 pmIt isexactlybecause most buyers are clueless that this shit continues. People absolutely must punish sellers in the worst possible way (i.e., full refund and keep the item(s)) when this happens.

author: SharpEars
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 11, 2015, 02:54:31 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on December 11, 2015, 02:47:05 pmYou could, but I find purpose in threatening the scoundrels first. Perhaps it may get them to stop or at the very least reconsider the false advertising of authenticity in their goods, but I am probably just fooling myself. To each his own...It's one thing when you buy something with an ambiguous description - Caveat Emptor. It's quite another when they claim pure copper or otherwise authentic goods only to send you Shenzhen made crap that will break in a week, if it works at all.

author: moya034
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2015, 03:01:17 pm
content: Quote from: SharpEars on December 11, 2015, 02:54:31 pmYou really do catch more bees with honey then vinegar. Obviously the seller mislabelled the item. Whether he is an asshole who did it intentionally in hopes of stealing your money, or an uniformed seller who didn't know any better remains to be seen. Starting that discovery process with threats means YOU are the asshole not the seller. Giving the seller a chance to make things right, before draconian action is taken is best. Also, never threaten, just do. If someone actually deserves draconian action taken against them, then you should never give them a warning as to what is coming.As someone who is a Team Leader in a Customer Service dept, I can assure you that starting communications off with threats guarantees you will never get what you want, even when the customer is not actually at fault. Threats immediately make the customer at fault when they weren’t before.

author: djQUAN
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2015, 03:02:18 pm
content: I usually find the cheap speaker wire crap to have a really thin conductor core surrounded by a thick insulation to give the illusion of thick speaker wires.So I found some that seemed to have a healthy copper core, decent conductor core size so I bought some. Came home and found it heats up even at 1A. (18ga 2 cond wire) then it stuck to a magnet on the bench.I also see CCA wires sold for outdoor solar applications. As others mentioned, it suffers reliability when exposed to weather so I don't think I'd see myself using those soon.

author: Ian.M
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2015, 03:56:42 pm
content: Anyone dealing with Shenzen made cable on a regular basis, knows you have to do the magnet test on each batch, sample for strand count and CSA and check you aren't getting CCA instead of pure copper. If a seller has one or two reels surplus to their own requirement, they might genuinely not know that its copper-clad steel, but the O.P.'s seller has lots of reels of lots of cables:QuoteIf you are in the trade there is no excuse.Would I immediately go Whomp-ass on a private seller? No, if it could have been an honest mistake, they get *ONE* shot at fixing the problem. However a commercial trader that you don't have a pre-existing business relationship with is another matter. From my point of view, all I want is the deal totally undone. i.e. all the money back in my bank account and the P.O.S. gone at their expense.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2015, 04:09:01 pm
content: Copper c oated steel is good for it's original application, as a MIG filler wire designed to be self fluxing on welding thin steel panels. The thin copper coat reduces corrosion on the bare metal, without introducing a contaminant in the weld itself.

author: SharpEars
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 11, 2015, 04:14:48 pm
content: Quote from: Ian.M on December 11, 2015, 03:56:42 pmYes, everything I said, I only apply to mass-sellers (and specifically mass-scammers) not private sellers who may have made a genuine mistake due to ignorance on their part. I would never go "commando style with guns blazing" on a mom and pop US seller, but I would still hold them accountable totheir ignoranceeBay policy.I've bought several things that came with missing parts and/or got damaged due to asinine packaging (e.g., peanuts cannot protect a 50 lb power supply) for the bulk/weight of the equipment. I held the seller responsible and got (in my personal opinion, justly) compensated in each case. Again, I am generally talking mass equipment sellers, not mom and pop.My (and eBay's to a large extent) expectation of the seller's responsibility is:Understand and test what you are selling. If you don't, don't sell it. If you still sell it, be able to cover the consequences of a bad sale.Package the item like it should be packaged based on its bulk and weight. Don't skimp on this item or be prepared to cover the damage inflicted during shipping.

author: Jay112
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2015, 04:18:35 pm
content: Just a quick update: So far I haven't heard anything back from the seller. We'll see what happens! I'm not worried about it, because as was noted earlier, eBay will most likely protect the buyer.eBay wrote that if I don't hear back from the seller in 4 days (Dec 16th), then I can ask them to step in and help.

author: SharpEars
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 11, 2015, 04:21:51 pm
content: Quote from: Jay112 on December 11, 2015, 04:18:35 pmDon't worry, I can with 100% certainty assure you that he will respond and refund. Not to do so is extremely disadvantageous to him as a seller. Also, be sure to keep the cable for your trouble, since he is obviously a scammer, do not even negotiate returning it. If he wants you to return the item, force him to pay not only for the shipping but for packaging and your time. These scammers almost always refund without question or return, because they know they are in the wrong (with eBay).

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2015, 04:22:48 pm
content: Quote from: SharpEars on December 11, 2015, 04:21:51 pmYou must be such a nice guy to deal with.

author: SharpEars
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 11, 2015, 04:25:01 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on December 11, 2015, 04:22:48 pmI actually am a nice guy and I used to get burned on eBay and take it. One day, I said I've had it with these sellers and decided to fight foot and nail for every seller scam / mistake. The severity is only adjusted for mass seller vs mom and pop (or individual who made a genuine mistake).I guess you were right after all, when it comes to being an eBay buyer, I am not a nice guy.

author: Jay112
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2015, 04:26:39 pm
content: Quote from: SharpEars on December 11, 2015, 04:21:51 pmThanks! And it definitely WAS trouble! I even ran 2 lengths of 30' wire across a ceiling. That was after spending 15 minutes unraveling the stuff because it seemed to be knotted with each wrap around the spool.

author: SharpEars
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 11, 2015, 04:29:59 pm
content: Quote from: Jay112 on December 11, 2015, 04:26:39 pmI've had cases where I had to spend half an hour setting up and taking a video (and then maybe 15 mins to half an hour post-processing it) to show that a device was not functioning properly and was properly connected and used, etc... Who pays for this time?eBay has several categories (new, used, for parts) and if the seller mislists the item's condition/state and doesn't follow eBay guidelines, it's their responsibility to rectify the situation - Caveat Venditor.When it comes to items claimed to be one thing (e.g., copper) and then coming being another (an always cheaper/more fake alternative such as steel or CCA), the seller MUST be held accountable.

author: dom0
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2015, 04:38:58 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on December 11, 2015, 11:55:51 amLooking at Deutsche Telekom I suspect a pattern here. Clearly this corporate behaviour must be caused by the name fragmenttelecom!

author: Ian.M
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2015, 05:27:26 pm
content: A reputable commercial seller is glad to be informed there is a problem, so they can immediately stop shipping defective product to anyone else.When I informed a leading auto parts chain that their own-brand copper sealing washer assortment was fake (copper plated hard brass) they not only refunded my money, but pulled all offending items from sale, and gave me a kit of genuine pure soft copper washers they had sourced from their competition for my trouble. Similarly, I took a defective bronze rigging clip back in person to a chandler. It was supposed to be for marine use, but had a carbon steel spring which corroded within days. I demonstrated the issue with a magnet, and that the magnet stuck to the next one off the display rack, and the owner's reaction was to borrow my magnet and try every similar part on the display rack. He removed the whole lot to send back to his supplier as "not fit for purpose", thanked me and gave me a more expensive all stainless clip as a replacement.Various online suppliers we dealt with on a regular basis who shipped incorrect parts almost invariably either credited us, shipped correct replacements, or quite often both. They tended to only want the parts back if they were actually defective, I presume to follow up with their supplier. We always asked if they wanted to RMA them and offered to hold the incorrect parts for their rep to pick up on his next visit, or for the courier to pick up on the next delivery, but the usual reaction was "keep them", or if mis-packaged, "send us a photo and keep them". RMAing and restocking costs money and is impossible if you don't have a stock code for "unmerchantable quality P.O.S."All you are entitled to is a full refund, but the costs to a genuine supplier of supplying counterfeit or seriously mis-described products are so high, that they are likely to go way above and beyond their legal obligation, to thank you, and hopefully keep you as a customer.

author: RobertBG
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2015, 05:41:09 pm
content: Sellers mislabeling products on Ebay is a big problem and something that I will not stand for,hopefully you get the situation resolved.The one post who offered a voice of reason is right though as it's best to give them the benefit of doubt when first approaching them about resolving the situation.It's a whole lot easier to go from being nice and polite to a demanding A** to get things resolved vs the other way around.As a business owner I'll bend over backwards to help a customer resolve something even if they where wrong if they start out politely where as a jerk I'll do as little as possible because chances are no matter what they'll be unhappy.If someone orders the wrong thing and calls to see what we can do,we'll figure something out,even though it's custom made to order with no returns.If it was our mistake we'll make it right and then some ASAP.Now if they're a demanding prick who made the mistake I'll tell them to go pound sand,if it was our problem I'll fix it but but you best be sure I wont be staying late,paying OT or overnight shipping to correct it unless there's a attitude correctionThere just seems to be a real mob mentality among some on this board to jump and call for a lynching and I just don't get it.

author: SharpEars
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 11, 2015, 05:57:53 pm
content: Quote from: RobertBG on December 11, 2015, 05:41:09 pmI'll just respond to the last sentence of your post. I'll also use the word we instead of I, since I am not the only one with this mentality. We're not against legitimate business owners, we're against Chinese (often bulk) sellers who fraudulently, misleadingly and purposely deceive customers on eBay by selling them fake goods, hoping that the customers will not catch on and sadly most don't. They will not correct their mistakes or stop. Their business model is to deceive and sell junk and fake goods - eBay rules be damned.In fact they have gottenmore brazen latelyand are beginning to flat out lie by labeling their wares as genuine, original and/or authentic. Their attitude will not change unless they are held to account. eBay will not proactively go after them, because they are making money at the expense of buyers. However, to cover its proverbial ass and abide by local (i.e., US) laws, eBay has to have rules for sellers and relies on buyers to report violations. I like to take these sellers to task and throw some verbal abuse in "for great justice." Or, at least it makes me feel better at their expense and I feel good saying this.These are the scum (of the earth that) we are after.

author: Ian.M
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2015, 06:04:07 pm
content: @RobertBG: Ever sold something described as 'carbon fibre' when it was really just printed on patterned black paint and clearcoat? .......... No. didn't think so. Some levels of supplier sleaze justify immediate escalation because there has been a breach of warranty and IMHO selling steel as copper is one of them.

author: SharpEars
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 11, 2015, 06:05:42 pm
content: Quote from: Ian.M on December 11, 2015, 06:04:07 pmNot to mention the dangers at lower gauges that such cable can cause when used in high voltage and/or power situations. From fire to shock, who protects the buyer from these dangerous goods? It certainly isn't eBay or the US government.

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2015, 06:06:39 pm
content: Quote from: SharpEars on December 10, 2015, 03:18:23 pmQuote from: SharpEars on December 11, 2015, 02:44:35 pmQuote from: SharpEars on December 11, 2015, 02:44:35 pmQuote from: SharpEars on December 11, 2015, 05:57:53 pmQuote from: SharpEars on December 11, 2015, 04:25:01 pm

author: SharpEars
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 11, 2015, 06:08:36 pm
content: Quote from: c4757p on December 11, 2015, 06:06:39 pmIf you're going to write my biography, at least make it complete:Quote from: SharpEars on December 11, 2015, 04:25:01 pmAs for the "name calling," it's not like the goods are coming from all over the world or even various parts of Asia. No, they are specifically coming from China and 80-90% of the time, Shenzhen. So, you'll have to pardon my political incorrectness (or not).

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2015, 06:11:28 pm
content: Just wanted to make sure everyone saw the pattern here.

author: SharpEars
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 11, 2015, 06:11:56 pm
content: Quote from: c4757p on December 11, 2015, 06:11:28 pmPoint made, but you weren't very thoroughand I refuse to beat around the bush as to the specific cause of the problem. Also, what I say is definitely in the spirit of EEVblog, so nyah.

author: Jay112
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2015, 06:19:22 pm
content: I just got a response from the seller! They accepted the return and emailed me a shipping label. I guess that was pretty easy!I thank you guys for all the help and the conversation. I most likely wouldn't have taken any action if it wasn't for you.

author: SharpEars
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 11, 2015, 06:20:10 pm
content: Quote from: Jay112 on December 11, 2015, 06:19:22 pmPretty easy except for the time you spent and you didn't get what you paid for. I would have kept the goods and not agreed to take the time to return them, as some sort of silver lining to this...

author: Ian.M
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2015, 06:39:55 pm
content: ***WAY***BACK*** in this topic I said "Follow the EBAY dispute process to the letter, paying particular attention to time limits. DO NOT communicate directly with the seller outside of EBAY. "If its an honest mistake, the EBAY dispute resolution process gives the supplier the chance to fix it - which is why the O.P. is waiting till the 16th.Trust has already broken down. Its not gone missing in transit, its almost certainly not a roll of the wrong type of cable due to an innocent mistake picking the order, (unless the supplier shelves the good stuff right next to the crap, and I'd bet the label of the reel doesn't say copper plated steel), so there is almost certainly no good-will on either side to salvage.In this case you need to notify EBAY that you have received a return shipping label and have shipped the faulty goods. You need that logged. Wind the length you cut to use back on the reel. Keep no more than 1m (but long enough to show any print on the cable jacket) as a sample in case it has to be escalated. Photo the reel as you pack it, and as you attach the label and finally as you post it.One final comment: *ABSOLUTELY* *DO* *NOT* agree that the matter is resolved unless you either have the genuine article in your hand or have a full confirmed refund. If offered replacement, state that "Time is of the essence" and ask for (and receive) a final delivery date before agreeing. Check that date is sufficiently earlier than any applicable dispute process deadlines in case the supplier fails yet again.

author: Jay112
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2015, 07:57:45 pm
content: @Ian.M: Thanks a lot for the wonderful advice!I would've followed it to the letter, but unfortunately I'm suffering from an acute injury and it makes it difficult for me to do anything. I already packed up the roll and have it ready for shipping, and it's too difficult for me to mess with it anymore. But I can still make sure to send an email to eBay, and also to be careful before the matter is marked as resolved.Honestly, if the guy really wants to rip me off for just $40, then he should just have it! The people ripping us off for much more (bankers, the government, the health care industry, monopolies, etc) are the ones I'm more concerned about!It's notable though that the guy still hasn't updated/fixed his ebay listing for the item.

author: Ian.M
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2015, 08:04:15 pm
content: Get what photos you can without unpacking it, in case the seller claims you never returned it. Its not absolute proof you sent it, but its good circumstantial evidence, if you have a photo at the post office or courier company of a package of approx the right size and weight, with a prepaid label addressed to the seller.

author: Jay112
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2015, 08:05:05 pm
content: Okay, I'll do that now! Thanks!

author: SharpEars
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 11, 2015, 08:52:32 pm
content: Quote from: Ian.M on December 11, 2015, 06:39:55 pmVeryVERYgood advice for all eBay conflicts...

author: SharpEars
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 11, 2015, 08:53:41 pm
content: Quote from: Jay112 on December 11, 2015, 07:57:45 pmAnd he never will! "There's a sucker born every minute," is his business plan.

author: SharpEars
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 11, 2015, 08:54:27 pm
content: Quote from: Ian.M on December 11, 2015, 08:04:15 pmHe actually has absolute proof he sent something, in the form of the tracking number on the seller provided return label. eBay doesn't even care if you sent back a brick. That return label's tracking is all you need to unquestionably get your money back, once the seller has agreed via eBay messaging. There is no going back on this from the seller's vantage point (unless the return label is invalid of course, which is something you can verify at UPS/FedEx/USPS before sending).By the way, the only reason that the seller asked for a return in this case is because he has a US "front."

author: Jay112
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2015, 09:01:09 pm
content: Quote from: SharpEars on December 11, 2015, 08:54:27 pmOne time I got penalized by a company for returning somethingsupposedlywith bad packaging, which caused the product to get damaged in transit. When I had to return something else to that same company, I made sure to take pictures of the packaging, so that they knew for sure that I packed it correctly. I guess it's probably safer to have more information on hand, like the extra photos.This ebay companycouldsay that I filled the box with 20 lbs of junk instead of the proper product... but I don't have anything junkier on hand than the wire they sent me!Ironically, just 5 minutes ago I received a bill from a hospital saying I owe an additional $250 from a procedure done over 2 months ago. Argh, these people.

author: moya034
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2015, 09:06:24 pm
content: Quote from: Jay112 on December 11, 2015, 09:01:09 pmI bet they sent you the patient satisfaction survey BEFORE they sent the bill.

author: Jay112
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2015, 09:07:50 pm
content: Quote from: moya034 on December 11, 2015, 09:06:24 pmNo, they definitely know not to send that to me! Ahahahaha!

author: Ian.M
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2015, 09:09:44 pm
content: Those surveys are always biassed, as the really unsatisfied patients either aren't able or aren't around to fill them in.

author: timb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2015, 09:14:22 pm
content: Quote from: SharpEars on December 11, 2015, 02:44:35 pmSo, outright committing fraud and/or larceny is the answer?Keep in mind that most of these sellers are just middle men. They may very well think that Arduino board *is* genuine and have no idea. I mean, some of these sellers have everything from Arduinos to Hairbrushes for sale. They're not specialists in electronics or hair care. Just drop shippers trying to feed their families.But, that's irrelevant. Even if they do know the goods aren't authentic, it doesn't give you the right to commit fraud. You're not "putting these thieves out of business" by doing this. In fact, *you are* the thief!Two Wongs don't make a right.

author: Jay112
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2015, 09:18:22 pm
content: Since Arduino is open-source hardware, does it even matter if it's "genuine"?As a sidenote: I thought the latest news was that there were 2 different companies who are fighting over which is the real genuine Arduino company.

author: SharpEars
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 11, 2015, 09:22:48 pm
content: Quote from: timb on December 11, 2015, 09:14:22 pmExplain to me how I am committing fraud, if I call the seller on the genuineness of the item and he himself offers me a refund and tells me to keep the item, because he knows he (intentionally) broke the rules and it's too expensive to ship it back to China? He effectively and literally bribes menotto start an eBay dispute. In fact many Chinese sellers are including a sheet saying they will refund if you are not happy with the item, just don't start a dispute through eBay. They know they are scamming.I suppose you could argue that I bought it under false pretenses or something, but that's so subjective. Also, I don't care if the guy is trying to feed his family, he shouldn't be doing so at the expense of tens (hundreds?) of thousands of others.

author: timb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2015, 09:28:40 pm
content: Quote from: SharpEars on December 11, 2015, 09:22:48 pmQuote from: SharpEars on December 11, 2015, 02:44:35 pmThat is fraud.You order an item that *you know* isn't authentic, just so you can file a claim and get it for free. That is fraud and makes you no better than the "thieving" seller.

author: SharpEars
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 11, 2015, 09:30:26 pm
content: Quote from: timb on December 11, 2015, 09:28:40 pmOK, I'll bite. Although I admit I said it, how can I reallyknowthat the item sent won't be authentic? After all, the seller can send me a genuine part and there will be nothing to dispute. The ball is in his court. I am just playing by the rules (i.e., eBay's policy) here.

author: Ian.M
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2015, 09:34:37 pm
content: All they have to do is sell it as "High Quality 100% Arduino Compatible", and make sure it is to avoid SharpEars playing the system to get a bargain. The seller is ripping off Arduino's reputation by claiming its 'genuine', and probably factors refunds to the 0.1% or so of non-gullible buyers who have the chutzpah to actually insist on their rights into their cost of doing business.

author: SharpEars
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 11, 2015, 09:36:27 pm
content: Quote from: Ian.M on December 11, 2015, 09:34:37 pmAnd with this I am in total agreement. If they are claiming compatibility and assuming that said compatibility bears testing, there is no scam here (other than possible trademark infringement, which is not a pretext for anything from the buyer's perspective). By the way, your 0.1% seems more like 0.01% based on the number of negative reviews these guys have - chutzpah is hard to come by these days.On the other hand, if the seller truly is impudent and brazen, claiming that this is an Authentic/Original/Genuine Arduino part,explicitly, and then selling me a Shenzhen made shit part soldered by a 5-year-old and bearing shaved off IC tops, well fuck them then and the panda bear they rode in on.

author: moya034
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2015, 10:26:54 pm
content: This thread reminds me a Louis Video:and:

author: Ian.M
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2015, 11:46:13 pm
content: Are you surprised? Take bottom feeding buyers + bottom feeding sellers and you could make a reality TV program out of their interactions. If at all possible, I prefer to deal with a supplier that has a real bricks & mortar store on the same continent as myself, even if I buy online from them through the likes of Amazon or EBAY. It eliminates most of the bottom-feeders and makes it more likely that we have similar cultural expectations of how a retail transaction should work.

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2015, 11:52:06 pm
content: Quote from: timb on December 11, 2015, 09:28:40 pmI'm unconvinced, to be honest. Just because you have your suspicions doesn't mean the seller no longer owes you exactly what they promised you.

author: timb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2015, 06:44:51 am
content: Seriously guys? Sharp literally admits to ripping off Chinese sellers and everyone is OK with it?It's one thing to buy something you expect to be authentic, then get it only to find out it's a knock-off and ask for a refund. It's another thing entirely to purposely purchases *obvious fakes* marked as genuine in order to get them for free. No matter how you slice it, it's wrong.As to the seller owing what they promised you... Nobody buys a "genuine" Louis Vuitton from a street vendor for 1/100th the retail price and doesn't know it's a knockoff.There's no replacement for common sense. If it seems like too good of a deal to be true, it probably is. When we buy parts from fly by night sellers on eBay, we all know what we're getting.Instead of ripping off the seller, you can just not buy from them to begin with. I shouldn't have to explain this to people. Seriously.

author: Seekonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2015, 08:31:06 am
content: You didn't know what the wire was, why is the vendor supposed to be an expert. It was a box of wire, it was solid not stranded, and it looked copper. If wiring up a house with data lines it is perfectly fine. 1000 feet shipped for $40 a pretty good deal, 4 cents a foot. I get $6 for 30 feet of single conductor. Everything is a conspiracy. This is why I pretty much stopped selling things on ebay.

author: Jay112
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2015, 08:40:42 am
content: Quote from: Seekonk on December 12, 2015, 08:31:06 amI agree that there are probably cases where innocence and ignorance are involved. But now this seller has been informed that his product is not solid copper, yet he still has it listed for sale as solid copper.

author: dom0
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2015, 10:43:47 am
content: Quote from: timb on December 12, 2015, 06:44:51 amWrong 'business practices' are not necessarily illegal and vice versa.

author: Ian.M
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2015, 01:30:12 pm
content: Its the difference between a Caveat Emptor culture and a Caveat Venditor one. Shenzen is largely a Caveat Emptor market. Buy 1000 microSD cards and, if you speak Cantonese, you will probably be asked what capacity you want them to report for formatting, and which brand packaging you want them in. (see:http://www.bunniestudios.com/blog/?page_id=1022). In most developed western countries strong consumer protection laws enforce a Caveat Venditor market. We expect goods to be "as described" and "of merchantable quality". A seller choosing to dump stock below the fair market replacement price, does not remove any of the rights of the consumer. There are various legitimate reasons for selling below cost - clearing over-stock or obsolete stock that is costing more in storage charges than its worth , liquidating stock before going out of business, etc.An EBAY merchantACCEPTS EBAY's sellers terms and conditionsand offers goods with a particular description. SharpEars bids and wins or makes a buy it now payment, knowing that there is a high probability the seller has falsely described the goods. The seller ships something vaguely resembling the goods. If it is sufficiently inferior, SharpEars starts the EBAY dispute process. At that point the seller can require SharpEars to return the misdescribed item but, assuming they don't have a second cousin in N.Y. to ship returns to chooses to write it off because its actual value is a small fraction of the price SharpEars paid and far less than the international shipping would be. EBAY forces the seller to refund SharpEars money and SharpEars has some P.O.S. worth less than the hours spent getting a refund, even at burger-flipper rates of pay, and the supplier has found that not *ALL* americans are gullible fools. Alternatively SharpEars ships the P.O.S. back to the second cousin in N.Y. so is out all the time he spent and the seller is out the postage but can relist the P.O.S as "shipped from the U.S.A" and bilk another sucker. If the goods are genuine, both the seller and SharpEars end up satisfied, with minimum wasted timeIf SharpEars worked for a consumer protection organisation, he could well be be PAID to do this full-time and we'd all be applauding his fight against Ellen Shell's extension of Gresham's Law: "Bad money drives out Good" to consumer goods.

author: SharpEars
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 12, 2015, 02:49:35 pm
content: Quote from: timb on December 12, 2015, 06:44:51 amI am in complete disagreement with you on several points:Yes, I literally admitted to ripping off Chinese sellers who rip people off. On that we are in agreement.The "no matter how you slice it it's wrong argument" is an ethical one and is therefore subjective. We agree to disagree here.The nobody buys a genuine item for 1/100th the price argument is completely false. On eBay, I have purchased numerous items for much less than retail. For example my purchase this week of an Agilent 6626A power supply was for 1/200 of it's current price at keysight.com . Granted it was a used supply in perfect operating condition and calibrated at that. Yes, Tim, the Power Designs 2020B sitting next to it which was hardly calibrated when sold to me is shedding a tear.The "when we buy parts from fly by night sellers..." argument is completely flawed. Chinese sellers with tens if not hundreds of thousands of reviews selling fakes are most certainly not fly-by-night. Many have been doing this for years.Not buying from scammers is of course an option and all of us who buy things on eBay generally follow this course. However, I and many others on occasion try to instill self-proclaimed vigilante justice unto Chinese sellers by scamming them right back. I am just more "vocal" about it.In any case, to each his own. My real goal is to make more people aware of the problem of forged electronics being sold on eBay/AliBaba/Amazon and to at least try to curb this trend. In that I alone cannot be successful - more people need to publicize this.Tim, keep in mind also that unless you actually buy a part from a scammer on eBay, you cannot leave them a negative review pointing out their illicit practices.

author: SharpEars
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 12, 2015, 02:51:48 pm
content: Quote from: Seekonk on December 12, 2015, 08:31:06 amBullshit, I claim that these sellers more often than not know exactly what they are doing and what they are selling! They are very aware that they are saying either fake or misleading goods. After all, the original poster complained about the specific wording in the title of the eBay auction - solid copper wire. If the seller is smart enough to put that in their listing, then clearly they are trying to defraud.

author: SharpEars
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 12, 2015, 02:52:56 pm
content: Quote from: dom0 on December 12, 2015, 10:43:47 amActually, in the US claiming that an item is something it is not and infringing on trademarks/copyrights is very much illegal.

author: Jay112
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2015, 02:54:03 pm
content: Is it common for these scamming sellers to always have good reviews? I don't think I've ever run into any seller that doesn't have 98% or 99% positive reviews. The one I purchased from has a rating of 99.7%.

author: SharpEars
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 12, 2015, 02:56:07 pm
content: Quote from: Ian.M on December 12, 2015, 01:30:12 pmThank you! And you are very much correct that in the time I spend doing this, I could make much more money doing what I normally do for a living. It's more of an effort of doing my part driving out bad sellers - a small and insignificant scratch, but at least I try.

author: SharpEars
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 12, 2015, 03:02:02 pm
content: Quote from: Jay112 on December 12, 2015, 02:54:03 pmYes, see Ian's chutzpa argument in a previous post in this thread. Or, to summarize, 99.9% of the buyers are clueless and think they got an awesome deal. That is people receive something that looks like it could be what they ordered and leave a positive review.If you want to read a small article I wrote on detecting that an LT1083CP voltage regulator is fake, you can check out the following post. Most of it is in Russian, but my replies are in English near the center of the page (just Ctrl-F search for mikero on the page - my user name on that forum):http://forum.easyelectronics.ru/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=17942&start=25These are the lengths you have to go through to detect/prove that something is genuine/fake.

author: Ian.M
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2015, 03:16:51 pm
content: The specification was 1000' of 26AWG eight conductor cable. That *SHOULD* contain 6.2lb (US) of copper with a current commodity value of $13.24 USD. Triple that to allow for drawing to wire, extruding the insulation and overmoulding the jacket, and knowing how China Post distorts the fair market price for international parcel mail, you are pretty close to $40 delivered equalling dumping at cost for whatever reason.Where do you draw the line that the consumer should know its "too good to be true"? If Walmart have anything on offer below cost for Christmas are they entitled to sell you illegally mis-described crap?

author: SharpEars
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 12, 2015, 03:30:38 pm
content: Quote from: Ian.M on December 12, 2015, 03:16:51 pmBTW, did you know that there are different qualities of copper wire coming out of China. I once ordered a tinned stranded copper conductor that was in fact genuinely a tinned copper conductor after extensive testing (i.e., I tested for both CCS and CCA as well as filing off the tin and examining a cross-section of one of the strands). However, its resistance was (IIRC) 1.5x of what it should have been (not an easy thing to test for at 12 AWG). It turned out that the only plausible explanation was that the copper used was very impure. It turns out that based on copper purity, you can have a very wide skew in resistance value.

author: Ian.M
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2015, 03:49:50 pm
content: Yes. If you remelt scrap small strand diameter tinned copper wire without chemically stripping the plating you will get something close to gunmetal bronze. Add in copper + residual solder from burnt off circuit boards and the alloy will be fairly low grade.Electrolytic copper refining costs money and requires a lot of plant so you can predict exactly what a low end recycler will do. Its not a problem if the result is used to make brasses, but it sure makes shitty electrical wire.

author: Jay112
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2015, 04:35:21 pm
content: Quote from: SharpEars on December 12, 2015, 03:02:02 pmThat article was interesting!Is there another thread around here that suggests good sources for good quality multi-conductor low-voltage wire? Or maybe could I start one? I tried searching Digikey a couple of times, but their hundreds of options are overwhelming.Beforehand I was just buying 100' of CAT5 cable from Amazon for around $10 a piece, and cutting it as needed. I made sure to buy the cables that were confirmed to be copper. It's nice that on Amazon the reviewers seem to give harsh treatment for the cables that are CCA, and hence not in line with CAT5 standards.But I wish I could buy in bulk at a cheaper price. Unfortunately most of the 1000' reels for sale seem to be CCA.

author: Ian.M
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2015, 04:50:56 pm
content: Quote from: Jay112 on December 12, 2015, 04:35:21 pmI would suggest watching Ebay for CAT5 boxed cable in the used category, looking for part used boxes, checking the brand name (to eliminate CCA) and approx length remaining and bidding (or not) accordingly.http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=cat5+cable+box&=&rt=nc&LH_ItemCondition=4

author: RobertBG
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2015, 06:42:02 pm
content: Quote from: Ian.M on December 11, 2015, 11:46:13 pmSo trueI prefer to deal with a brick and mortar based establishments because if something goes wrong you can always toss the product through the window if they don't care enough to resolve the issue at handHopefully things will return to more actual stores some day.For now I try and spend as much as I can with businesses that care enough about their customers to have a store and answer a phone.If people would simply take a little more time to research where they spend their money it would weed out quite a few unscrupulous sellers pretty quickly.While benefiting the local and US economy.Instead people go for the absolute cheapest price without thinking twice about it until something goes wrong.In the end the sad truth is it's costing us dearly and few care enough to actually do anything about it.It's all too easy to blame China but the reality of the situation is people need to take a long look in the mirror because it was us who allowed this to happen and we are the only ones who can fix it by spending our money a little more wisely.If people would make a conscious effort to spend their money so it stayed local the long term benefits would far outweigh the small increase in short term cost.With that said,this forum is full of hypocrites.I despise sellers who dont label things correctly yet when I pointed it out elsewhere I was the bad guyNow I'm not trying to turn this into a larger fiasco then it already is but some of the comments in this thread have really explained a lot about some folks character around here.

author: SharpEars
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 12, 2015, 06:44:00 pm
content: Quote from: Jay112 on December 12, 2015, 04:35:21 pmIf you tell me what gauge you are looking for I can point out a Chinese or American eBay or AliBaba seller that actually sells decent quality tinned copper wire with a geometry as advertised, based on my resistance measurements and quality assessment.

author: Jay112
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2015, 06:57:24 pm
content: @Robert: That sounds like great advice. The trouble comes when we don't have enough money to make the choice between spending a little more to get higher quality products while supporting the US economy, or just buying whatever's least expensive.Ideologically, I personally would never want to purchase anything from the giant monopolies like Walmart or Amazon. But sometimes people don't have a choice due to financial constraints. For example, I could purchase a pair of shoes at a local brick-and-mortar store here for $120, and then find that those exact same shoes only cost $80 with free shipping from Amazon or Zappos (same company... yikes!). And most unfortunately: over 90% of the shoes at either the brick-and-mortar or the online stores are going to be produced overseas with cheap labor.But if there ever comes a time when money is less of a constraint, I would definitely prefer to buy American and support the local and smaller guys.

author: Jay112
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2015, 07:03:11 pm
content: Quote from: SharpEars on December 12, 2015, 06:44:00 pmThanks! I mainly just do Arduino-type home-automation stuff. My projects are never-ending, so that's why I'm always in need of wiring. I don't need anything fancy, just something that works consistently.I've been using CAT5 cable with success, and if I can't find a price cheaper than $10 for 100', then I probably will continue using/buying the CAT5 cable.As for requirements: I guess I could use anything with 4 to 8 conductors inside, either solid or stranded, and with a gauge of probably anywhere between 24 and 28. I don't need them to be twisted pairs.

author: Jay112
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2015, 07:22:06 pm
content: As a sidenote: Last year I purchased a DIY Geiger counter kit for $120 from an American inventor. The exact same kit was copied and sold on eBay by many sellers for just $40-$50. They even were using the original inventor's Arduino code for their knock-off kits. So I had a choice between saving money and purchasing a knock-off, or supporting the original inventor. For a case like this I decided to support the original inventor because it was only 1 person, and I knew exactly where the money would be going and that I was supporting a guy who was working hard trying to make an honest living.But I think the choice becomes murkier when the decision is between purchasing something overseas produced with cheap labor, or purchasing the exact same product locally from a brick-and-mortar store, even though the store had also purchased it overseas.

author: SharpEars
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 12, 2015, 07:32:23 pm
content: Quote from: Jay112 on December 12, 2015, 07:03:11 pmOK, I'll give you my favorite eBay seller for decent quality stranded wire in high gauges and you check if what he has to offer meets your needs and price point. He is the only Chinese wire seller I've found on eBay so far that sells reasonable quality stranded tinned copper wire:http://www.ebay.com/itm/371105900007The only bad thing with him is that he charges $1.50 per item for shipping (i.e., no combined shipping), but his wire prices are out of this world for good quality wire. The way to save even more with this guy is to buy the longest length of cable you think you will ever need (of a particular gauge and color). I usually go for his max length of 20 m for each wire I order bring the per meter cost to pennies.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2015, 07:35:20 pm
content: Quote from: SharpEars on December 12, 2015, 07:32:23 pmLooks like the same wire as the other thousand sellers, with the same terrible specs (18AWG looks somewhere north of 20AWG).

author: SharpEars
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 12, 2015, 07:36:08 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on December 12, 2015, 07:35:20 pmI disagree, I actually measured the resistance and it came within spec for the gauge listed, so in that alone he is way out of the norm (at least speaking for 16, 18, 20 and 22 AWG). I am not sure how you can gauge the wire from a picture alone without actually measuring it.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2015, 07:37:20 pm
content: Quote from: SharpEars on December 12, 2015, 07:36:08 pmWithin what spec?

author: SharpEars
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 12, 2015, 07:38:19 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on December 12, 2015, 07:37:20 pmWithin this spec, for one:http://www.seas.gwu.edu/~ecelabs/appnotes/PDF/techdat/swc.pdfYou look up the AWG and geometry and measure the milliohm resistance across the run you purchased, extrapolating the results to one of the listed lengths in the table above (e.g., 1000 feet). You can do a weight test as well for a cross-check, but for me it's primarily about the resistance.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2015, 07:40:38 pm
content: Quote from: SharpEars on December 12, 2015, 07:38:19 pmI can read a simple chart.So, the seller you suggested is massively underrating his wire - why? Probably because some of it's copper, and some.. isn't.The stuff you received may be up to snuff, but the next batch could be anything!

author: SharpEars
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 12, 2015, 07:43:14 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on December 12, 2015, 07:40:38 pmI have no idea. I don't trust any resistance tables provided by the seller for exactly the reasons you indicated. The only thing I trust is doing a Kelvin resistance measurement once I receive the goods and doing it on a good length of wire. I follow up with a current limited test using a calibrated HP power supply to confirm the resistance test (i.e., if I pass two amps through this run, what will the voltage be at a two amp CC setting). His stuff measured better than the table (i.e., within a reasonable tolerance) for the runs I received, regardless of what he is claiming or not claiming (which is worth nothing, because like you said 1000 other scammers are selling and claiming the same or better).By the way, the scammer who sold me the 12 gauge wire for example had a measurement that indicated that it had the resistance of approx. 15 AWG. This was despite the fact that the diameter of the wire was correct and the strands were indeed copper, just impure copper mixed with who knows what.The only way to find a diamond in the rough on eBay is word of mouth from trusted posters on here (or some other trusted forum). Somewhat amusingly, the seller for whom I provided the link claims:Factory Direct Sale ! Stable Top Quality !Based on the quality I've gotten from him so far, I believe him. With some Wong selling on eBay, that's a first for me. Also, the guy ships pretty fast and it comes within two weeks to the Midwest (US). Maybe it's because he charges shipping? Who knows - I'm happy with the goods...Speaking of which, I just got two runs of 16 AWG / 20 meters in total. Would you like me to weigh them?

author: SharpEars
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 12, 2015, 07:59:17 pm
content: OK, here is the weight I measured (I ordered 10 m of each of red and black), 20 meters total:16 AWG, 26/30 geometry, 10 meters red: 157 grams16 AWG, 26/30 geometry, 10 meters black: 174 gramsScale accuracy (+/- 1 g)The weight according to the table for 10 meters of 16 AWG with 26/30 geometry should be: 117 gramsHe's sent about 10-15% overlength in the past and the cable measured very well resistance wise, so this makes sense (perhaps it is closer to 15 AWG equivalent both diameter-wise and resistance-wise and it's 10-15% overlength). Or perhaps the plastic is slightly heavier on this cable, but I can assure you that the plastic is very light having stripped an ungodly amount of it off these cables (of various gauges) in the past. By the way, the insulation is quite good and is labeled on these which is a huge plus for scraps laying around the bench that you are trying to identify six months down the road. It's too bad that the guy's wire range stops at 16 AWG on the thick end for some reason. I have a different seller I use for 14 and 12 AWG (AliExpress) and yet another one for 10 AWG and below (US based on eBay).Of course as they say, past performance is not an indicator of future performance, but this guy has been reliable for the last 18 months or so, so I have some history.

author: RobertBG
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2015, 08:35:02 pm
content: Quote from: Jay112 on December 12, 2015, 06:57:24 pmI used to think the same way until I lived in Bulgaria.My wife's grandmother lives on approximately 200$ per month pension and she'll spend what little she has to go with something made in BG over china.Surprisingly though it's easier to find stuff that is made there than it is here for American made products.Generally it's better quality too,so to be fair it is slightly easier at times there .If everyone in this country just made the effort to pick one item a week,the effect on their budget would be minimal but the companies would take noticeThe sad truth is they could compete with Chinese manufacturing these days if they wanted too but the consumers could care less,simply put if a company thought that spending a little extra would benefit their sales in any way against the competition they would do it.

author: SharpEars
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 12, 2015, 09:59:10 pm
content: Quote from: RobertBG on December 12, 2015, 08:35:02 pmThe problem as far as quality goes anyways isn't primarily with companies selling Chinese goods in the US. They have to abide by government standards and regulations, which for electronics are reasonable. You have (optional) UL listing, safety testing, EM emissions, etc..., that you have to pass to sell a product in the US.The problem is individuals selling directly from China or pretending to be in Hong Kong (but still selling stuff shipped from China). These are the people selling sub-par goods with no safety guidelines whatsoever. The best you will find is a CE stamp which means exactly nothing and they will stamp that as much as a forged manufacturer's name on a part. Even the automated processes have extremely poor quality control and use fake or factory rejects in the best case.

author: Jay112
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2015, 11:07:23 pm
content: Quote from: RobertBG on December 12, 2015, 08:35:02 pmThis is a good point, and is inspiring.I met a Bulgarian carpenter once who was very careful not to waste anything or throw anything away unnecessarily. I learned some good lessons from him. Don't they say that Americans create more waste than most other developed nations? We probably could learn a few lessons about being more resourceful.

author: SkyMaster
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2015, 02:19:32 am
content: Quote from: Jay112 on December 11, 2015, 09:18:22 pmThis is off topic but...The Arduino is open source, but the Arduino name can only be used by the Arduino company. Everything else is Arduino compatible; as the Arduino name is a trademark that belong to the Arduino company.The issue with the two different companies fighting over the right of the Arduino name, came up because one of the five founders of the Arduino company started his own "fake Arduino" companyin secret; after the real Arduino company was founded. Now, when you look at the founders on on the Arduino.cc webpage; you only see four founders.

author: Jay112
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2015, 03:36:07 am
content: Quote from: SkyMaster on December 13, 2015, 02:19:32 amInteresting story! Thanks for sharing! I guess it's just another lesson that it's hard to trust people when money is involved.Also, this entire thread is technically off-topic, including the original title I made!This was a very interesting and informative thread though, and I'm amazed how much response there was over such a boring-sounding topic.

author: vsaciol
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: December 13, 2015, 11:26:17 am
content: Quote from: Ian.M on December 10, 2015, 04:46:03 pm1. There is another simple physical method as well: Solid copper's cross section is purplish red. CCA's cross section is silvery.2. Usage: 2a) High frequency (conductor skin effect) & low current leads, e.g. network cable; 2b) Neutral wire of 3-phase motors (far less current than in the other 3 live wires).3. Refund is the best.

author: SharpEars
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 13, 2015, 02:40:43 pm
content: Quote from: vsaciol on December 13, 2015, 11:26:17 amYou guys are making this way to complicated. The easiest test for CCA is as follows:Take stranded wire, strip it, hold it over a lighter. If the strands warp and ultimately melt, it's CCA. If they keep their form as they get red, orange and ultimately almost white hot, they're copper (or CCS, which you can test for with a magnet).Aluminum's melting point: 660.3° C (You can easily melt it with a good adjustable soldering iron set to 700°+ C)Copper's melting point: 1085° CSteel's melting point: 1370° C (That's why you need to also do the magnet test)

author: Yansi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2015, 04:20:20 pm
content: When is it okay to use copper-clad aluminum (CCA) wire?ItNEVERis okay. Don't buy and/or use the cheap shit.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2015, 04:23:45 pm
content: Quote from: Yansi on December 13, 2015, 04:20:20 pm

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2015, 04:28:28 pm
content: Quote from: Yansi on December 13, 2015, 04:20:20 pmWhen you are making 10 000 cheap microwave ovens a week and want to reduce the mass of the transformer by 1kg and the cost by $10.

author: Yansi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2015, 04:36:13 pm
content: But is the OP manufacturing a 1 000 000 series of microwave transformers?Still its not an excuse to use cheap rubbish. The price difference is too low for the difference in durability, quality and reliability.

author: SharpEars
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 13, 2015, 04:39:02 pm
content: Quote from: SeanB on December 13, 2015, 04:28:28 pmDon't give Som Tin Wong any ideas - oops, too late!

author: SharpEars
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 13, 2015, 04:39:54 pm
content: Quote from: Yansi on December 13, 2015, 04:20:20 pmIt is OK when you are a sucker buying on eBay too clueless to know what CCA is. Duh, I can use it with ma' truck's battereh to get mo' of dem Col' Crankin' Amps (CCA)!1!!11!1!

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2015, 04:41:22 pm
content: Quote from: SharpEars on December 13, 2015, 04:39:02 pmLarge transformers already use aluminium windings, and they have for a long, long time. This includes expensive, Western manufactured units. Why? ... because in some applications, the cost and weight difference makes it the better material.Aluminium is used for busbars and wiring in many situations as well, where again, the cost and weight savings make it a better choice.None of this is copper clad, though.

author: SharpEars
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 13, 2015, 04:42:53 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on December 13, 2015, 04:41:22 pmCertainly for very low gauge (i.e., large diameter/volume) cable/bus bars where weight is most definitely a factor, this makes total sense. It also makes sense for heatsinks. For 18 AWG stranded wire, though... I think I'll pass...

author: Ian.M
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2015, 04:43:27 pm
content: The power companies love it for overhead lines. Its got a better conductivity to weight ratio than copper, doesn't cause bimetallic corrosion of the high-tensile steel core and is *FAR* cheaper. Other uses where mass or moment of inertia isn't important, its far less appropriate and small diameters or worse stranded, are only for sell-your-sister crooked cheese-parers!

author: Electro Fan
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2015, 06:29:45 pm
content: Is this solid copper or something else?http://www.amazon.com/Elenco-Hook-Up-Colors-dispenser-WK-106/dp/B008L3QJAS

author: Yansi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2015, 07:31:33 pm
content: I'd rather spend some money for a proper wire from reputable manufacturer. CYA or LiFY (veeery nice) type one.I am just not bothered using the cheap rubbish wires.

author: Jay112
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 20, 2015, 09:40:34 pm
content: I wanted to thank everyone for the help. I just received confirmation that the seller sent a full refund to my credit card.