Disappointed with JBC - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: kcs
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2015, 02:43:55 pm
content: I have recently purchased a brand new JBC CD-2BD soldering station. I have read mostly positive reviews/opinions about JBC products and that particular station in this forum and some other places. I guess all the good things are already mentioned by others, so I would like to point out something I did not like.1. JBC claims their cartridges have superior thermal response and shows a graph as a proof where we see how in 2 seconds temperature rises from 20 to 350°C. My collected data shows that is a marketing BS. It takes 7+ seconds to do that (see the graph attached).2. I have contacted JBC about that more than 2 weeks ago, but I have not received any response on this matter. I was really disappointed that they showed no interest and did not care to respond.3. I have found two major issues in their "JBC Manager" software:a) It looks like temperature displayed on the graph is not always actual temperature. It is especially visible when temperature is dropping in Sleep mode. For example, on the LCD screen I can see that temp is 150°C while at the same time on the graph it shows that it is 225°C.b) It loads my i7 CPU by ~40% when it draws a simple graph. It does looks suspiciously high.4. Other less important things:a) No change log is provided for firmware updates, so you do not know what was fixed. Not that it is very important, but it seems to be a common practice to provide it and hence I a missing it.b) There is no "Process Alarm" function (if the actual temperature leaves the preset temperature window, an acoustic signal is generated) that ERSA i-CON stations offer. I think it would be handy and could be easily added with the next firmware update if JBC decides to do so.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2015, 03:33:16 pm
content: Did you measure the temperature response externally at the tip?

author: kcs
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2015, 04:17:07 pm
content: The graph was made using software provided by JBC. I have double checked the readings on the LCD during the heat up and it was also about 7 seconds.After reading your question, I have measured temperature at the tip using Fluke 80BK and, without doing a proper setup, can say that it does not heat up in 2 seconds, not even close.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 01, 2015, 05:21:53 pm
content: As much as I can find, JBC advertises 2 seconds for T210 handpiece, not T245 which your station seem to come with. The trap is that you likely have read the advertising without any conditions specified. Just that soldering stationscanreach 350oC in 2 seconds, that's all. This one?http://www.jbctools.com/heating-system.htmlBut if being more specific....http://www.jbctools.com/pdf/JBC%20Top10.pdfQuote

author: deadlylover
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2015, 05:35:39 pm
content: Yep it's just marketing fluff, you can find some graphs using the T245 here versus a few other irons;http://www.howardelectronics.com/jbc/images/performance-comparison_1209.pdfTheir customer service is a little hit and miss, they seem to screen like an Olympic drug tester, it's a shame really.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 01, 2015, 05:50:07 pm
content: Quote from: deadlylover on September 01, 2015, 05:35:39 pmThanks for the PDF, figured out JBC have no shame. I just checked JBC vs ERSA comparison in this document and what do you think. Heat up time is almost equal, but when soldering ERSA sucks, riiiight?With a tiny detail, tips used, 3 mm JBC chisel cartrige vs 1.6 mm ERSA chisel tipTips on the pictures looked a bit off in comparison, so I searched for the part numbers specified, and hell yeah. Marketing maggots.

author: kcs
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2015, 05:58:35 pm
content: wraper, I have done my homework.1. If you open apagewhere JBC advertises its CD-2BD soldering station, you will find the following written: "It works with theJBC exclusive heating system". That "exclusive heating system" is described as one that allows to heat up from 20 to 350°C in 2s.2. If you open an officialbrochurefor Compact line soldering stations, you will find the same advertisement of its "exclusive heating system".3. CD-2BD offers peak power of 130W, while CD-2SD - only 40W. So, I doubt that CD-2SD, that comes with T210 handpiece can offer any better results.What conditions do you have in mind? In regular every day use it does not show the advertised performance.UPDATE: Thanks,deadlylover! That pdf you linked illustrates exactly the same heating times

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 01, 2015, 06:11:58 pm
content: Quote from: kcs on September 01, 2015, 05:58:35 pmUsing it with T210 handpiece.I don't see there that they would say T245 heats up in 2 seconds anywhere you mentioned. Moreover if you attach some really beefy cartrige, it will be much worse than 7 seconds. If you attach T210 handpiece to your station you'll have those 2 seconds, because tiny cartridges with very low thermal mass. You just bought on a 2 seconds bait without researching further if there is a trap.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 01, 2015, 06:23:40 pm
content: Quote from: kcs on September 01, 2015, 05:58:35 pmNo you haven't. When there is only one particular model mentioned, they don't say anything about two seconds,like over this linkEDIT: actually there are those 2 seconds, not in the spec but in advertisement (general for technology, not model) on the bottom. In the brochure you mentioned where are those 2 seconds to 350oC, there are multiple models in the catalog.You wrongfully assumed (as their marketing department wanted) thatevery JBC exclusive heating system= 2 seconds to 350oCwhich is not.

author: Augustus
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2015, 06:42:45 pm
content: All the marketing bull aside, it is still one of the best handsoldering tools you can buy, so really no reason to be disappointed, imho...

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 01, 2015, 06:47:36 pm
content: Quote from: Augustus on September 01, 2015, 06:42:45 pmYeah, rather to be considered as the lesson about marketing for the next time. You won't be able to buy any better anyway, so don't be disappointed about making the wrong choice.

author: 5ky
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2015, 06:59:17 pm
content: I have the modular line for both the soldering station and the rework station and I'm quite happy with them. I get the concerns about the fuzzy marketing, but all in all, it's the best performing station I've ever had the pleasure of using.

author: kcs
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2015, 07:22:38 pm
content: wraper, based on your logic:1. A guy sees a car advertisement where it claims it can do 0-100 in 4 seconds.2. A guy purchases a car and realizes it does it only in 20 seconds.3. A guy asks for explanation and gets an answer that he saw a red painted car in the advertisement and he has order a black painted one and that it is his fault he assumed they both will have the same characteristics.In this case you will say he has made a wrong assumption, however, I will say he was deceived by a false advertisement. Yeah, you can say that they have sophisticatedly fooled me once, but they will not have a chance to do it again - simple because I will go with other brandsYou can loose trust quickly, it is much harder to gain it back.Impressively quick heating time was one of the major factors why I have chosen this station over the other I was going to buy. So I am disappointed.Just to clarify, it is not the bad station, but not the best either, at least not for me.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 01, 2015, 07:42:55 pm
content: Quote from: kcs on September 01, 2015, 07:22:38 pmYou seen the advertisement that xx model car can do 0-100 in 4 seconds, have climate control, uber navigation, yada, yada.You buy it, and then realize that you bought an option with a smallest engine which do only 7 seconds, no climate control, no navigation option, and crap audio systemBut it's still the same modelThis is the real world.QuoteThis is still fastest heating in the class. You can use T210 handle with 2 seconds heat up (or a bit slower weller, etc), but they good only for some tiny stuff. Nothing with the same size of tip will heat up faster than this one.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2015, 07:53:23 pm
content: Quote from: kcs on September 01, 2015, 07:22:38 pmWell, that analogy is distorting things a little, isn't it? How about this version:1. A guy sees a company brochure saying "Porsche has the only series production cars which go 0 to 100 km/h in less than 3 seconds".2. Guy buys a Porsche SUV and is disappointed that it takes 8 seconds to accelerate.3. Guy gets the explanation that the 3 seconds apply to the company's fastest production car, the 911 xyz sports coupé.Still not nice, but rather typical selective truth in advertising; and the difference in performance between models makes obvious sense from a technical perspective.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 01, 2015, 07:54:12 pm
content: I use ERSA I-CON stations BTW. So yeah, I can see how one can decide to go with JBC thinking 2 vs 9 seconds, it's waaaay better. While in reality it's just 7 vs 9 seconds when comparing apples with apples, and ersa tips are wayyyy cheaper.

author: McBryce
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2015, 07:59:41 pm
content: If I may ask. Is your life so busy or your projects so tightly timed, that a 7 second heating difference matters? Who cares whether it takes 2 or 9 seconds to heat? By the time I've sat down, taken a sip of coffee and found the component I need to solder, the 9 seconds have passed several times.McBryce.Just for information: I also use an Ersa iCon Nano.

author: 5ky
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2015, 08:21:41 pm
content: Quote from: McBryce on September 01, 2015, 07:59:41 pmAlso, that's cold start, right? The JBC's go into energy savings when it's in the cradle, but that temperature is still pretty high, and so when you pull it off the cradle, it doesn't have to go very far to hit your set temperature. I feel like mine hits target temperature after pulling it off of the cradle in a mere second or two tops.

author: kcs
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2015, 08:58:04 pm
content: Quote from: 5ky on September 01, 2015, 08:21:41 pmCold start or start from Hibernation.Quote from: ebastler on September 01, 2015, 07:53:23 pmI think your analogy is distorting and not by a little bit, but we are all entitled to our own point of views, right?Btw, I just got this "lovely" exception, I guess JBC got angry on me for my complaints

author: McBryce
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2015, 08:59:02 pm
content: I run my Ersa at 360°C most of the time. It sleeps in stages. There's one at about 250°C, then somewhere around 100°C and the final step brings it to 50°C. It takes about 5 seconds to get back up to 360°C with a 2mm Chisel tip from 50°C. That's about the time I need to prepare the component.McBryce.

author: KJDS
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2015, 09:03:09 pm
content: Heat up times are about as relevant to real world usage as 0-60mph times. They give a hint of performance, but aren't really that useful a guide.

author: VK5RC
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 02, 2015, 12:15:24 am
content: I don't know about you guys but MY time from "off to soldering" (get the iron out of the stand, solder in the right position, light etc is a lot longer than 2 secs, HiHi.Happy JBC user, esp heat transfer rate from a tiny handpiece.

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2015, 12:33:29 am
content: My time requirement is about 1 sec, I am not sure why people first grab the soldering iron and THEN reach out to the component or do whatever adjustments. When I want to solder I am ready to solder, the only delay is to get the soldering iron to where it needs to be.Having said that, JBC is OK to me when waking up from sleep when I perform a work, but certainly not from cold state but I am not worried about cold state warm up time as much as I do for wake up.No doubts thermal performance is better than my Weller EC2002, but overall I like Weller better. I could throw the handpiece across the bench and it would land right into the opening of the holder. With JBC I have to handle it like a baby, carefully taking out and putting back in to the holder. I have no clue how people on assembly lines use it, it is certainly not designed for any type of abuse.

author: ConKbot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2015, 02:51:00 am
content: Just make sure your iron sits in the holder right, or prior to come back to an oxidized useless tip. With a multi channel station, make sure you don't bump the cords either. We retired our JBC units at work for metcals after they keep burning though tips, and the newer units got flaky in various manners. Personally I think the small metcal tips work better on heavier loads than similar sized JBC tips. I did prefer the jbc tweezer design, vs the metcal design though.Just my $0.02.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2015, 07:41:07 am
content: I think TS has a valid point, if a company claims X and in practice it is Y >> X then you can complain.It doesn't matter what X is, even if it is the color of the thing, it is misinformation.In this case X is a parameter that is important since each and every company that sells solderstations benchmarks this.

author: dom0
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2015, 10:04:43 am
content: Quote from: McBryce on September 01, 2015, 08:59:02 pm360 °C? You are using lead-free solder I assume?

author: Augustus
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2015, 11:36:58 am
content: Quote from: ConKbot on September 02, 2015, 02:51:00 amThat's why I like the Ersa system on their fully fledged I-Cons, they use accelerometers build into the handpiece to detect motion. If there is no motion for a programmable amount of time, the station switches into standby mode and finally turns off. You don't need a special stand for that, or a cable from your station to your stand. Any stand will do. In fact, you don't need a stand at all, if you laid your iron flat on the table and forgot about it, it will also switch off. Pick it up and by the time you have placed your component it is on temp. There are people who claim the accelerometer solution is overengineered but I think it is the way it really should be done

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 02, 2015, 11:42:23 am
content: Quote from: Augustus on September 02, 2015, 11:36:58 amYep, IMO accelerometer is much cleaner (and probably cheaper) solution than building moving stuff and switches into the stand and then running a cable, or making built in stand into the station. I can move my ersa stands freely without need to think about any cables connected to them.

author: JackP
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2015, 11:58:56 am
content: I think the best design for a 'sleep mode' is the Metcal system. I don't have one, but the use of a magnet to lower the curie point is pretty darned simple (by which I mean the implementation) and effective. Of course I believe the actual shut off time can be programmed into the base, which is not quite as flexible as the motion based system, which in itself seems pretty cool.

author: dom0
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2015, 12:12:47 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on September 02, 2015, 11:42:23 amI don't think there are mechanical parts involved in JBC's stand detection. They just put a pull-up on the silver metal part where you put your iron into. The iron then shorts that to ground with it's metal shell.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2015, 12:18:50 pm
content: Quote from: JackP on September 02, 2015, 11:58:56 amThey Metcal shutoff time starts when you stop using it. It detects it based on the fluctuations of energy going to the tip.

author: neslekkim
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2015, 01:07:43 pm
content: Quote from: dom0 on September 02, 2015, 12:12:47 pmCorrect, only electrical contact.

author: ConKbot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2015, 03:40:35 pm
content: Quote from: neslekkim on September 02, 2015, 01:07:43 pmAnd the source of my gripe with them not shutting off right, once either or both sides get dirty/oxidized. Yes, you can clean it, but at work I have enough stuff to do besides perform PM on my soldering station. Though I suppose someone will tell me to just put deoxit-gold on it when I'm doing the quartly application to scope BNC's alsoQuote from: JackP on September 02, 2015, 11:58:56 amClose! The output is a constant RMS current RF, the tip of the iron has a lossy inductor in it, when the iron tip is at the curie point or above, or enough external magnetic field is applied, the inductor saturates, the voltage/power going to the tip drops. I agree, its an awesomely simple and clever method. Though the accelerometer based system sounds very nice too.

author: JackP
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2015, 07:21:48 pm
content: I wasn't to sure on the details, thanks.

author: JuKu
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2015, 01:54:26 pm
content: Quote from: KJDS on September 01, 2015, 09:03:09 pmFrom cold start, maybe. When used, putting the iron to sleep does increase the tip life hugely, so this is very useful. Heatup time from that is one of the main decision factors for me.Quote from: 5ky on September 01, 2015, 08:21:41 pmSo, marketing aside, JBC is still a good choice for my next iron.

author: ElectronicsNewbie
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2015, 12:32:38 pm
content: kcs, have you received any reply from JBC on your matter?

author: kcs
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2015, 02:18:51 pm
content: Quote from: ElectronicsNewbie on September 09, 2015, 12:32:38 pmNo. Btw, my unit has the same gap you have identified in your thread.