Help! How to open a silicon fabrication factory?! - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: ali6x944
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2016, 02:45:16 pm
content: Hi everyone,I know this might sound weird but I want to open a silicon fabrication facility, I don't really know where to start looking....Do I search for the machines or for how much the machines are, how to fabricate the semiconductor products, or from where I get the raw mineral that is used to make them, storage form: in ingots, wafers or else...estSearching in the internet only resulted on over all stages of process, I what to know the details if anyone knows anything please contribute it this page by sharing what u know...

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 30, 2016, 02:52:34 pm
content: First you should start looking for many millions of dollars.

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2016, 02:52:42 pm
content: Budget ? This is obviously missing from your 1st post and its utterly important, otherwise this thread will turn into ajoke.... err... entertaining thread.

author: rea5245
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2016, 02:57:14 pm
content: You won't like this answer, but I recommend you first get a job at someone else's silicon fab and spend a few years learning the ropes. You need to know the business a lot better than you apparently do now, before you have a chance at running your own business successfully.This is true in any field.- Bob

author: amspire
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2016, 03:02:49 pm
content: A good place to start is to have between 1 and 10 billion dollars. If you do not have at least 1 billion dollars, forget it.The sensible way to start is to design chips and have a multi-billion dollar fabricator company make then for you. This is the approach taken by the majority of semiconductor companies - most do not have their own chip foundries. Even big companies like nVidia don't make their own chips.Anything you could possibly make in a small factory, the big foundries can make it many times better and many times cheaper.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2016, 03:05:37 pm
content: Quote from: rea5245 on December 30, 2016, 02:57:14 pmBut especially so in a field where any of a zillion process variables can reduce your yield to zero.I doubt that without having someone on board with extensive experience you would stand any chance of making a single useful device.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2016, 03:08:46 pm
content: Quote from: rea5245 on December 30, 2016, 02:57:14 pmTrue statement. But given where the poster resides, budget may not be a big issue so another path is to hire someone who has already learned the ropes. Or several someones, so that you can check their answers and get insight into the many corners of the industry. One of the first questions such a person would ask you is "What kind of silicon fab?". What do you want to build, how many and do you want to make money or just create a training ground for the people Bob is recommending? You have to know where you are going to even start defining the steps to get there.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2016, 03:12:15 pm
content: Quote from: amspire on December 30, 2016, 03:02:49 pmNonsense. Fairly fine geometry fabs come on the market from time to time for just a few hundred million dollars.

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2016, 03:13:42 pm
content: Start from buing a bunny suit. Or two.

author: Kalvin
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2016, 03:17:39 pm
content: https://mightyohm.com/blog/2010/10/diy-integrated-circuit-design-with-mosis/http://www.instructables.com/id/Home-Semiconductor-Manufacturing/

author: amspire
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2016, 03:34:39 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on December 30, 2016, 03:12:15 pmYou mean one of those fabs put out of business by the new fabs?It would be possible if you didn't try and move the old fab, and you were happy making the kind of chips designed decades ago. I used the figure of 1 billion dollars because that is the actual kind of money the smallest new fabs are costing to build today.It is possible to do simple work fairly cheaply - many universities have facilities to make semiconductors and ICs, but not on any commercial scale or complexity.

author: Twoflower
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2016, 03:41:09 pm
content: Quote from: rea5245 on December 30, 2016, 02:57:14 pmMaybe even get a tour through a Fab to see the effort what's required. This is for example theGlobal Foundriessite in Dresden. Just to give you the idea of the size you need to get money out of it. Probably if you target bigger structure sizes (e.g. 130nm) you can live with smaller fabs.There some questions you should think about first:* Number of wafers/wafer diameter you want to process.* Structure-width you want to target (you can't change that without exchange the equipment).* The products you want to target (small logic, huge processors, MEMS, analogue devices, ...).* Who is providing you the libraries for your process? Without this you can't use synthesis tools.* Do you want to do just the production or do you want to produce your own products?* Can you get enough customers by your products.* You need to qualify your process (ESD, electromigration, ...).* ...This is just what came to my mind within 5 Minutes. If you still think you would like to go the path you might check some technical Universities has some prototype systems to see if you can be a guest to see how it works. And this might actually opens contacts to a) suppliers b) persons you need as this is not a one man show.One more thing: The time one single wafer with several metal layers needs to be processed is in the time of weeks. During this time you need feed other devices through otherwise you're loosing lots of money. Also you can't easily switch off and on as you would like. So you can't just fire on your Fab and in a day or two you gave your device like a PCB.

author: RandomTask
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2016, 03:46:47 pm
content: Considering OP is posting from Saudi, maybe a billion dollars is not an issue

author: Kleinstein
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2016, 04:21:42 pm
content: The semiconductor business is somewhat strange: the new fabs that are build are usually for very fins structures and rather large. So you need the billions and also the personal to operate and start up such a plant (less personal is needed later on if every thing works fine) - so it is a really hard thing for a new start.Chips with larger features are usually made in older fabs and thus competition is high and prices low in the lower grades. So very few, if at all fabs of lower grade are build. The only exception is solar cell - which is the very low grad.The more realistic way would be to start with the chip design and have another fab making the chips for you. Even companies like maxim does that with most (if not all) of there parts. Many parts / designs are also protected by patents - so things can be hard there too.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2016, 04:53:16 pm
content: Sand is mostly silicon.Is Saudi Arabia, which has a very good supply of sand, a natural place to manufacture silicon chips in very large volumes?I have no idea.

author: edavid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2016, 05:11:49 pm
content: Quote from: cdev on December 30, 2016, 04:53:16 pmUmm, no. Sand for silicon production comes from quarries, not deserts. There are only a few silicon producers in the world, and none of them make chips.Chip production uses much more water than sand.

author: edavid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2016, 05:14:25 pm
content: Quote from: Kleinstein on December 30, 2016, 04:21:42 pmIs this true in China? Are they just buying up older fabs from other countries, or are they also building new large geometry fabs?(How many fabs are there in China anyway?)

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2016, 05:15:59 pm
content: With Saudis' role of controlling oil prices going potentially to end maybe they decided to move to controlling silicon business.

author: Richard Crowley
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2016, 05:17:18 pm
content: Where do used fab tools go? There must be some sort of secondary market. My employer recently cleared out a reasonably modern 200mm R&D fab and all that equipment must have gone somewhere.A friend from many years ago had collected most of the essential tools for 100mm fabrication. But his goal was only to make photo-voltaic cells, and not any kind of integrated circuit with sophisticated patterning.

author: edavid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2016, 05:20:21 pm
content: Quote from: Richard Crowley on December 30, 2016, 05:17:18 pmhttp://www.bidservice.com/

author: ali6x944
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2016, 05:20:47 pm
content: Quote from: RandomTask on December 30, 2016, 03:46:47 pmLOLtarout island is were I live in saudi, trust me not too rich of a place, maybe in history other wise poor place...But good point u all pointed out, I really haven't factor the budget because I thought to proposes it to aramco as a way to get support...So I need an estimated because I need to base my knowledge from...What I understoode so far:The cost is between 10Billion- to a couple of millions of US dollars and that the different grades are different in price...

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2016, 05:29:41 pm
content: Quote from: amspire on December 30, 2016, 03:34:39 pmMost devices are not made in the finest possible geometry. There are 90nm fabs up for sale from time to time, and that's the geometry most shiny new MCUs are being developed in. Its also far finer than you need for most work if you are in the analogue market. Taking over a fab if you already own fabs can be a matter of stripping out all the equipment and moving it to your existing site, then leaving the buildings to rot. If you don't already have a fab, the cost of creating clean rooms, and low vibration areas for lithography, means you aren't going to get a good deal unless you use the fab as it stands.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2016, 05:39:22 pm
content: Quote from: edavid on December 30, 2016, 05:14:25 pmFabs built in China, whether locally or foreign owned, are generally built for the most advance processes they can be. However, export controls mean they may not be able to buy the most advanced equipment the world has to offer.

author: ali6x944
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2016, 06:33:50 am
content: Another question to ask is do silicon fabs buy ingots or thay make them by themselves?

author: mrpackethead
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2016, 06:49:14 am
content: Plenty of Silicon on the beach. ANd its free.

author: ali6x944
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2016, 09:50:54 am
content: https://www.google.com.sa/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://faculty.mu.edu.sa/download.php%3Ffid%3D28895&ved=0ahUKEwiX09Kq753RAhXEOhQKHUKcDxsQFghFMAo&usg=AFQjCNE-AEwlC7Hs7CjeUd8sxu-XfNchmg

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2016, 09:59:52 am
content: I find it perplexing that PCBs are weekend hobby priced, yet silicon has been around for almost as long* and even the most rudimentary fabs (say, grotesque feature sizes like 10um, and just double diffused bipolar, say -- this is early 70s tech, long since scrapped!) are completely inaccessible in comparison.*Basic (single layer**) PCBs have been in production use since the 40s, and planar silicon fab since the 60s.**Single graphical layer, i.e., just copper and holes. Soldermask and silkscreen came later, and 2-layer boards after that (again, I mean in consumer level mass production).Yes, there's COMSIS and all that, but that's based on the same paradigm as ever: retardedly expensive masks are etched, then a couple wafers are made in a modern fab. You can't get anywhere near the same quantity (small, 1's to 10's) and cost ($100s tops) as PCBs do.Why have cheap optical projection techniques not advanced into smaller dimensions, so that silicon resists can be exposed?Why have chemical processes not become streamlined?Vacuum chambers aren't terrifically expensive (you can get going for under $1000). But I don't see anyone playing with those making semiconductors.You can buy a professional, albeit basic set of PCB fab tools for not much more than a vacuum system.Why hasn't silicon caught up? Why is there no interest in this?I bet one could even do it without the vacuum, given a careful choice of semiconductor. (Or even not -- Jeri's experiments were done in air. Well, and steam.) A lot is known about this stuff nowadays. TFTs are printed. Why can't I have that on my desktop?Sure, TFTs suck eggs (mobility -- Rds(on) and transconductance per area of MOSFETs -- is around 1/100th that of single crystal Si), but it's something. Argh, still haven't fixed the "always embed YT links" bug here...anyway:Tim

author: edavid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2016, 04:50:07 pm
content: Quote from: ali6x944 on December 31, 2016, 06:33:50 amNeither, they buy wafers.Quote from: mrpackethead on December 31, 2016, 06:49:14 amAnd contaminated. As I said, sand for silicon production comes from quarries. The price of sand is down in the noise for silicon cost, so it makes sense to buy the purest SiO2you can get.

author: edavid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2016, 04:54:21 pm
content: Quote from: T3sl4co1l on December 31, 2016, 09:59:52 amIt's because silicon integration progressed too rapidly. There used to be a lot of semicustom and low volume IC options, but MCUs, DSPs, SOCs, and FPGAs wiped them out. Cheaper and simpler.

author: anfang
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2016, 07:21:34 pm
content: Quote from: edavid on December 31, 2016, 04:54:21 pmI'd add that you still can buy silicon made on old processes. PIC microchip has made quite a business using old, depreciated 1.2 micron fab lines. But when you are using old manufacturing, you are limited to the number of transistors you can lay down. A 1 micron process can do about 6000 transistor per mm2, while a modern 22 nm process can do about 60M transistors per mm2.Die size matters too. The practical limit of a 1 micron fab humming at Intel-esque levels of efficiency is probably a few hundred thousand transistors. That is what the 80386 achieved in ~1.2u process technology. But there is no way someone working at home could achieve those levels. Intel achieved that because their defect density--the number of bad spots on the silicon--was fantastic. A person working at home would probably see a defect density 1000 higher than Intel achieved in the 80s.What seems feasible for a dedicated person working at home on old IC fab equipment might be silicon with 10K transistors or so. These are slow transistors--perhaps 10 or 20 MHz. You would have enormous costs for masks sets. A modern mask on a multi-core ARM soc is approaching $10M. You'd likely still be facing several thousand dollars for the mask set. Then you need to slice the wafer into die, test each die on expensive testers, thrown out more than half the ICs (because your defect density sucked) and then package the parts with a wire bonder.OR, you could simply use a modern FPGA and/or processor to replicate whatever 10K transistor "thing" you were looking to build. I'd add that 10K transistors is perhaps 3000 gates. There's not much exciting stuff you can build with 3000 gates these days.A cheap Xilinx FPGA is around $10. For $10, you get a lot more gates, a fantastic (relatively speaking--ISE is pretty bad compared to modern software) tool chain, no need for masks, no need for cutting die and testing. And clock speeds that are amazing.So, I guess the question back to the original poster is this: We've seen very compentent companies make a decent business using old processes. But they are quickly losing to skilled players running on much more advanced processes. The writing is on the wall. What niche do you think you could carve out with all this hard work that isn't readily being solved by the market today?

author: mrpackethead
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2016, 09:42:05 pm
content: The FPGA certainly has made it possible for lots of niche products to exisit. Not everything useful will have the volume of a cell phone.

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 01, 2017, 01:22:39 am
content: Quote from: anfang on December 31, 2016, 07:21:34 pmI'd be happy with hundreds, even tens per mm^2. How many SOT-563s can you get per mm^2 on a PCB? About 0.5!QuoteI'd love to see dies 1-10mm across with hundreds of transistors; the defect rate doesn't need to be astonishing to achieve that. Though you do incur some liability for simply using larger transistors, and a lot more for using a crappy process. Just a matter of dialing in "good enough".QuoteDear God, what are you going to use all those transistors for?!You're really thinking about digital (CMOS even?), by the sound of it.Why would anyone do that? FPGAs are better in all respects. Even if you need mere hundreds of transistors worth of logic, you can probably solve that better with a few MSI gates, no programmable chip needed.I would love to see a return to analog circuitry.There have been many occasions where I'd love to solve something with analog, but a packaged solution doesn't exist, and doing it discrete requires too much PCB area.I'd love to actually be able to use current mirrors and diff amps in a circuit!!There's no solution for that right now. Even if it's experimental and hobby and research scale, being able to spin prototypes as fast, and as cheap, as PCBs, would be great. Then if it can be pushed into production for cheap, it would be a viable production item as well.QuoteYeah, masks are horrible. Let's get rid of them!QuoteTesting aside, the dicing and bonding isn't too bad: used machines are available for a few $k each. That amortizes pretty easily.QuoteMeanwhile, analog SoCs are notoriously weakly spec'd!Tim

author: julian1
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 01, 2017, 02:34:37 am
content: QuoteWould soic transistor arrays like mmpq2222a and mmpq2907a be a partial answer for that? Handling temperature effects should be easier when everything is on the same substrate and when there is some degree of transistor matching.

author: Richard Crowley
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 01, 2017, 03:49:34 am
content: This question is a perfect example of that category of questions: "If you have to ask, you probably can't do it."And especially if you have to ask such a basic question in a public forum.Perhaps the best answer is to hire someone who knows the field.

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 01, 2017, 03:54:13 am
content: Quote from: julian1 on January 01, 2017, 02:34:37 amNo -- they're not matched, and the ones that are, are still separate dies (they're cut from the same wafer, or binned). The few monolithic arrays that remain today can be counted on one hand, and cost about as much!They still take up just as much board area as any other SMT component.Here's a prime example: how come I have to build this stupid thing?There's no single IC that offers the same functionality. Everything you see here could be smooshed inside any single chip on the board, but even if it were a 5mm square die plus bonding area to the board, it would be vastly superior in overall size than this PCB!Tim

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 01, 2017, 04:23:51 am
content: Quote from: Richard Crowley on December 30, 2016, 05:17:18 pmDovebid is a big broker for used fab equipment. Anything from washers to etchers and ion implanters.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 01, 2017, 12:40:24 pm
content: Quote from: Richard Crowley on January 01, 2017, 03:49:34 amExactly. OK you can buy the machines, but what about the expertise to actually use them?It's not just a case of plugging it in, stuffing silicon blanks in one end and getting useable die out the other ( though I wouldn't be surprised to see an Indiegogo campaign for something to do that)Anyone can buy a load of used Operating medical gear on ebay, but doing surgery is another matter.

author: ali6x944
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 01, 2017, 01:15:29 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on January 01, 2017, 12:40:24 pmQuote from: Richard Crowley on January 01, 2017, 03:49:34 amTrue, and I agree with u in that, but this "someone" simply dose not exist, because it is simply saudi Arabia.I searched for somebody in King Fahd University of Petroleum and Minerals or KFUPM for short, one of the largast, if not the largest in saudi but no trace for such a person, some however know people who went abroad and are studying nanotechnology I believe...I resently saw a company called Sillicon Valley for nanotechnology Co. Ltd. It says thay offer clean rooms service, I will contact them and see...Also I will check King Abdullah Institute for NanotechnologyJust to make sure their is such a person in saudi....

author: Richard Crowley
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 01, 2017, 02:36:04 pm
content: It seems likely that there are Saudis who have such knowledge and experience. But since Saudi Arabia has no such industry, they are working elsewhere. Not clear why you are limited to people in-country? The industry is international.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 01, 2017, 04:58:18 pm
content: Quote from: T3sl4co1l on December 31, 2016, 09:59:52 amIn the lab part of a course on semiconductors back in the 70s we made arrays of transistors with processes that could be achieved in a home lab. As I recall the vacuum stages were done in glass ampules that then were loaded with appropriate gases and pressures and then put in a simple oven. The downside is that it consumed lots of square feet (about 1000 as best as I can remember). Pricing stuff like this on the surplus market is impossible, but probably with at least some hobby peoples reach. Wafers were purchased. That lab ran on one inch wafers, already obsolete even then. Today you would probably have to buy the smallest available wafer and dice to a usable size.The real kicker is that yields were terrible. Under 3% of transistors operated, and those poorly. I can't even imagine the yield on a multi component circuit. Yield would be improved (greatly by practice). As students we only ran one batch, and I know several things I botched on mine that would have been fixed on a second try, but the barriers are pretty high.

author: anfang
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 01, 2017, 08:57:13 pm
content: Quote from: T3sl4co1l on January 01, 2017, 03:54:13 amYou are using SO8 packages and you think the only opportunity to get smaller is to roll your own IC? Wafer scale packages will give you an opamp in a 1x2mm package with balls on 0.2mm centers. 01005 resistors are 0.4x0.2mm in size.The board you show above could be quite easily 1/10th the current size I suspect with careful package selection. You are nowhere near the limits of what could be achieved. Your local assembly house is likely already handling CSP and 01005 resistors. Things like the pot could be eliminate by laser trimming on the PCB.Looking at your board, I'd say the manufacturing tech involved is one step up from a garage door opener. It's roughly comparable to 1990 cell phone designs. You should first push the limits of what could be achieved from packaging since the entire industry is set up to help you achieve that goal. And after you've exhausted that, look into bare die and MCMs. And if that still hasn't solved your problem, then make your own IC at home if you think that will meet your needs. But I suspect that even if you found a die that worked in your batch, the next die would have performance dramatically different to the point it'd be unusable.

author: glenenglish
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 01, 2017, 11:34:32 pm
content: Maybe try a hybrid assembly instead.at least you can put capacitors on them.like thishttp://www.pcmag.com/encyclopedia/term/44544/hybrid-microcircuit

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 02, 2017, 04:02:25 am
content: Sure, but that's only possible if cost is no object. What you see pictured is a $20prototype, all off the shelf, readily available, and able to be mass produced by a CM.I could design the whole thing from transistors if I had to, but there's no way a discrete approach will be smaller unless it's integrated as such.(The capacitors can be pushed out to pins, as long as the assembly can be made a bit smaller.)Tim

author: technotronix
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2017, 12:53:37 pm
content: First take some basic experience from some other's Silicon factory, that will automatically give your answer for where to start.

author: ali6x944
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2017, 02:35:01 pm
content: For how much does a fab has to pay for the wafers? Or how much is the typical price of wafers? And what is the most commonly used size?

author: Richard Crowley
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2017, 03:47:35 pm
content: The "most commonly used size" depends on what you are making. High-volume, very popular modern CPU chips are made on 300mm (12 inch) wafers. They likely cost 100s of $£€ each. But I wouldn't be surprised if there were still some popular legacy chips still being made on 100mm or 150mm wafers, as long as the equipment holds up. There are examples of popular "niche" chips which are going EOL (End of Life) with no direct replacements simply because they can't afford to keep the old production lines running with tools that are falling apart from old age.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2017, 04:26:20 pm
content: Quote from: ali6x944 on January 03, 2017, 02:35:01 pmVery little current production is on wafers smaller than 200mm. 200mm vs 300mm wafers is obviously a big price issue. The geometry is also a big price issue. The number of mask steps is a significant price issue. The use of specialist processes, like ultra low leakage, also affects price. I think you should be able to find some basic pricing information on TSMC's or UMC's web site. Of course, major customers aren't paying the prices they advertise.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2017, 11:21:38 am
content: Here you go...GoIndustry Dovebid Sale by Private Treaty 571061 — Nemotek - 200mm Semiconductor Front and Back End Wafer Fab Tools and Equipment

author: elecman14
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 06, 2017, 01:37:04 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on January 06, 2017, 11:21:38 amMike's link appears to be broken.http://www.go-dove.com/en/events?cmd=details&event=571061&

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2017, 01:53:19 pm
content: Quote from: elecman14 on January 06, 2017, 01:37:04 pmfixed

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2017, 03:35:15 pm
content: equipment , check.now on to procuring the chemicalssilanesilicontetrachlorideHFArsinePhospineBoronAntimonyand of course bare undoped wafers (wacker)oh, and coolant, cleanroom , a DI water installation . and a three phase powerfeed of several megawatts... ( that implanter is power hungry ... )You could get away without an implanter and do the doping in an oven but i don't think the neighbours will appreciate you installing a big hydrogen tank in your backyard. if your doping oven or epi reactor goes -kaboom- there is not going to be much left of the surrounding 5 homes ... there is a reason epi reactors are installed inside a room-within-a-room in the fab. the inside room has artificial weakpoints in the roof. the outside wall are reinforced concrete. if it goes -kaboom- it goes 'upward' and the rest is protected. typically if an epi reactor is running nobody goes inside the inner room.epi reactors are notorious for this. that is why most fabs have a separate epi section, or even outsource the epi to a third party ...having hydrogen and silane in the same reaction ( together with the toxic dopants like arsenic) is a tricky...Silane is an interesting gas. on contact with oxygen it spontaneously combusts producing a stream of pure molten silicon and water vapour ( Silane is SiH4) Any small leak in the epi reactor and you get an open flame... breach the bell jar ( a quartz container ) , air gets in the mix and the rest of the hydrogen in the tank now ... you get the picture...https://www.cdc.gov/niosh/surveyreports/pdfs/163-12a.pdf

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2017, 04:31:15 pm
content: Quote from: free_electron on January 09, 2017, 03:35:15 pmAbsolutely correct as stated. And maybe the old small scale equipment has vanished from the surplus market. But a hobby scale fab would not have the scale of impact you described. I know that the reactors used in the post I previously described would have done room scale damage, not neighborhood scale.I still think it is possible to do this on a hobby scale, though only for a very committed person with well above the normal level of hobby finances and more than average available space. Think a high end volt nut or time nut for comparison.

author: Richard Crowley
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2017, 04:42:29 pm
content: We don't really know whether @ali6x944 is talking about "hobby scale" or something commercially viable. He has been so vague in his questions and comments it gives the impression that he really hasn't the first clue how complex or expensive this is. Building fabs has pretty much always been a rather exclusive club.

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2017, 05:29:55 pm
content: Quote from: Richard Crowley on January 09, 2017, 04:42:29 pmFor sure even ali6x944 is one of the Saudi Arabian's prince, cmiiw, that kind of investment probably needs the level of approval of King Salman bin Abdulaziz. As almost all or at least 99% source of fresh capital/cash needed came from oil and only from the Kingdom.Just look at the current oil price for the past two years and economic outlook of that country, and most oil rich middle east countries today, where major-major cost cutting is escalating rapidly and super aggresive.Just a brief insight ( US$79 billion deficit in 2016 fiscal year) ->http://www.reuters.com/article/saudi-economy-budget-idUSD5N17S01XNot sure bout the number, isn't that like building from zero a huge car factory ? or even much more ?Just don't believe this thread is serious, actually its quite entertaining & refreshing, at least for me.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2017, 05:45:44 pm
content: My response was more directed at Richards question about why we can do home fab of pcbs but not ic's. If ali is a Saudi prince and is doing this as a hobby (Annual production of dozens and feature sizes measured in multiples of microns) this is definitely within his capabilities. Just buy a few less supercars or sell a mansion. If he is looking into ways to diversify his nation's economy as the oil base goes away it is still well within national resources, but he is a long way from knowing enough to even start to answer whether this is an appropriate way to go. Even as modified by non-economic issues such as national pride, technical independence or whatever.

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2017, 07:01:54 pm
content: Quote from: free_electron on January 09, 2017, 03:35:15 pmEww, stinky!At least there are alternatives to a few of these. Old school doping can be done with solvent-deposited goo. Smear on some borate or phosphate compounds, cook it, and there you go.Other semiconductors might potentially use even more environmentally-friendly dopants (and CVD feedstocks, or no CVD at all, just evaporation or sputtering), but I haven't seen any discussion of that here, unfortunately.QuoteYikes, an implanter? What do you need that for making?QuoteNothing wrong with hydrogen, it's a standard welding-supply gas. (Not that you could get away with such cheap stock -- just that the safety implications are the same.) Anyway, I'd gladly rent some industrial space to start up something like this, where the zoning allows such materials to be stored!It could also maybe be generated in process (checking, titanium hydride is an easily regenerated, high purity method!), which completely eliminates the dangers of high pressure gas storage.QuoteHoly crap! Are you talking a huge industrial line? Why would anyone build that?It sure as hell won't fit into ones' backyard!QuoteWhat's silane used for, anyway? Epitaxy? Poly? Growing SiO2?Should be very easy to avoid using either application, in any case.Tim

author: Richard Crowley
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2017, 07:36:19 pm
content: Quote from: CatalinaWOW on January 09, 2017, 05:45:44 pmInteresting to note that the auction of fab tools cited previously was located in Morocco. It may have been the only fab on the African continent?

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2017, 08:17:51 pm
content: Quote from: Richard Crowley on January 09, 2017, 07:36:19 pmnope. Tunesia is there too. The morocco site was probably ST ... (tunesia is ST too.)

author: timb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2017, 10:39:55 pm
content: Quote from: T3sl4co1l on January 01, 2017, 03:54:13 amHell, the only monolithic matched transistor array I know of that's still available is from Analog Devices and comes in a large 6-lead metal can! They also cost nearly $20 a pop!

author: edavid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2017, 10:56:23 pm
content: Quote from: timb on January 09, 2017, 10:39:55 pmHFA3046/HFA3096/HFA3127/HFA3128 are still in production at Intersil.

author: ali6x944
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2017, 12:19:19 pm
content: Quote from: BravoV on January 09, 2017, 05:29:55 pmI wish I was prince, let me tell u

author: danmcb
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2017, 10:31:28 pm
content: Don't listen to these charlatans. I have one going cheap for just 30k. Mail me.

author: richardlawson1489
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 17, 2017, 12:11:31 pm
content: Quote from: ali6x944 on December 31, 2016, 09:50:54 amDo you know anyone who has silicon factory? Do you have any basic plan on how to run or start silicon factory? Have you experienced working in silicon factory? What is your estimated budget?