Windows 10 support ending 2025 - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2021, 03:31:14 pm
content: It will sneak up on you faster than you think. Once the new version is available, Microsoft will be actively making your life miserable long before 2025.https://www.cnet.com/news/windows-10-support-is-ending-in-2025/I'm a bit worn out with switching versions of Windows. I think this means I have 4 years to get used to Linux.

author: PKTKS
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2021, 03:37:50 pm
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on June 15, 2021, 03:31:14 pmgeeez they made mine a miserable latrine in the late 80s..by mid 90s I had totally ditched their crap in the potty...GO TO HELL MS!quoting Duke:rest in pieces...Paul

author: PKTKS
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2021, 03:46:21 pm
content: but.. make no mistake about it...Corporate IT is a sick whorehouse NAZI Mafia...Expect very soon to "PAY" for "free source" open source whateverin the same means all cloud fevers are up to..https://cloud.google.com/blog/products/compute/ubuntu-pro-available-on-google-cloudShell corporations and front end corps will soon take over andoffer you a subscription of each and every piece of it..Azure is obvious no different and WSL path the way of this shit..Paul

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2021, 04:17:53 pm
content: Im sure i read somewhere windows 10 was going to be the last windows release and they were just going to continually update it,guess they discovered theirs no money in that route.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2021, 04:51:39 pm
content: Quote from: themadhippy on June 15, 2021, 04:17:53 pmYeah, I guess we didn't get that in writing! I'm betting that the new Windows will be a subscription service of some sort--Operating System as as Service, or Windoze OSaaS. And that while the 'core' may be low-cost or perhaps free, they're going to nickel and dime you to death on additional 'features'. They're jealous of Apple's recurring revenues and they think they can play the same game. I'm also betting the Windows 10 will be deprecated in actual effect well before 2025.Maybe I'm just pessimistic and it will be great. Windows 10 was just a big ugly hack to eliminate the stench of Windows 8, but it mostly delivered except where it occasionally didn't. (WMC, e.g.) It always seemed like a stopgap, so perhaps Windows Nirvana will be the ultimate solution to everything and be totally free as well. And they're going to throw in a virtual machine that will run all previous versions of Windows going back to 3.1.

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2021, 04:55:17 pm
content: The next version will require proof of vaccination, or be tied to your Social Score.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2021, 05:56:43 pm
content: Yeah, I've seen a few articles talking about that. Some people have started noticing this announcement from MS.Which, nobody really understands as of now, since MS have claimed that Win 10 would be the last Windows version ever.Win 10 effectively turned into some kind of rolling release distribution... but. Not exactly.What's going to be next, who knows. Maybe they're going to change CEOs. Maybe they're going to release a new Windows something. Maybe they're going to drop the Windows brand, and call it something else.One may even think that in all their pretentious visionary outlook, they are working on making classic "OSs" a thing of the past. Windows 10 is still a classic OS. Possibly by making more and more things offloaded to servers instead of being done locally. (Something we have already discussed before and reckoned it somehow looked like going backwards in time, but with a much more powerful network.)I for one have managed not to switch to Win 10 as of yet. Still on 7, and increasingly using Linux for some things at the same time. With that announcement, I have even less clue whether I'm ever going to upgrade to Win 10.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2021, 06:28:12 pm
content: So much for Windows 10 being the last version ever, "Windows as a service" which granted absolutely nobody asked for. It is unfortunately very typical Microsoft to go all in on something only to quietly drop it a few years later, anybody remember the "PlaysForSure" debacle?I'm still using Win7 on my daily driver, it's the last good version of Windows as far as I'm concerned. I've migrated all my back end/utility stuff over to Linux and can fully jump over to that if Win7 ever becomes no longer viable.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2021, 08:56:01 pm
content: Windows 7 "just works", except where Microsoft has forced software vendors to no longer support it!

author: rdl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2021, 09:29:50 pm
content: This means it's probably time for me to get a Windows 10 machine up and running. It's almost certain whatever they come up with next will be worse.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2021, 11:37:32 pm
content: Quote from: rdl on June 15, 2021, 09:29:50 pmWindows 10 will become stable when it is "left behind", just like Win 7 and Win 8 is now!

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2021, 06:31:01 pm
content: There's some "leaked" info starting to appear, showing a Windows 11. Even some preliminary screenshots.If this is at all real, it looks like MS is just preparing an overhauled Windows 10 with a few UI changes. The rest is unknown, but I haven't read about anything revolutionary so far. Oh, and it's currently being called Windows 11, but MS might call it something else in the end.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2021, 08:04:38 pm
content: Well what else revolutionary is there that they could do? The PC is a mature commodity, no further revolutionary development is needed, it needs to just work. I'm sure they'll come up with some way to screw it up more though. Also given their past lack of creativity and the significant number of products that have shipped under their former code names, I'd be shocked if they come up with anything new to name it.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2021, 09:21:59 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on June 16, 2021, 08:04:38 pmFrom a user's POV, yes. Now from a business POV... that's something else.Quote from: james_s on June 16, 2021, 08:04:38 pmFrom a user's POV, yes...

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2021, 10:45:51 pm
content: I'm a user, the user's POV is the only thing I care about.

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2021, 10:56:24 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on June 16, 2021, 06:31:01 pm"Doors"Sorry couldn't not resist.

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 17, 2021, 01:32:26 am
content: Traditionally "support" only meant MS would listen to you if you asked them and provide bugfixes, and didn't matter otherwise; but given the growth of DRM-ish stuff they might actually try to stop you from running an older version...There's still plenty of test equipment, embedded controllers, and other miscellaneous industrial stuff running MS-DOS or Win3.x out there.

author: wilfred
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 17, 2021, 12:40:22 pm
content: Quote from: Bud on June 16, 2021, 10:56:24 pmSurely it would beCurtains.

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 17, 2021, 05:35:30 pm
content: I'd really like a proper win32 sandbox, with full DirectX support ... if Windows 11 can deliver that I'm buying.The plan to have win32 sandbox, but for all win32 applications at the same time, never interested me much. I understand for strongly interacting programs (such as for instance Steam) full isolation will break things without some specific work around. The simplest work around would be to just let the user combine sets of programs in a single sandbox, though I'd prefer a little more isolation than that.The windowsapps directory is an anti-user-freedom abomination. I will not sacrifice my ability to modify applications for isolation.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 17, 2021, 11:11:28 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on June 16, 2021, 10:45:51 pmOf course.And in any sane business relationship, the customer's interest should be approximately equivalent to the company's interest. But it's become clear than many companies these days manage to put their own interest way above that of their customers, and still manage to make business. That in itself is not sane, but what's somehow comforting is the thought that it can't last forever.And regarding seeing some really new features in the next Windows... of course, most of us do not actually expect this to happen. But, after years of Windows 10 and the big announcement that it would be the last Windows version ever, if there is a next version, it would make sense to expect something a bit more drastic than the usual set of modifications that each major Windows 10 update releases. Otherwise, that would look like MS is not just putting their own interest above that of their customers, but like they would actually be making fun of them. Oh well.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 17, 2021, 11:20:42 pm
content: Theirs a load of youtube videos appeared today showing a supposed "leaked" version of win 11,first impression, there copying apple with the central task bar thingy and really trying to force you to have microsoft account .

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 17, 2021, 11:56:41 pm
content: Quote from: themadhippy on June 17, 2021, 11:20:42 pmYes, seen a bunch of people claiming to have gotten ahold of a leaked pre-version of Win "11". There are some minor UI changes, like windows and buttons with rounded corners (oh wow), the icons on the taskbar being centered by default (but you can left-align them as before, it's now a setting), a little transparency here and there, and maybe a bit more consistency, but still pretty much the same sh*t. Ah yes as you mentioned, it seems more difficult (if at all possible?) to create a purely local account now.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2021, 03:46:35 am
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on June 17, 2021, 11:56:41 pmAll your base are belong to us

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2021, 04:53:39 pm
content: Anyway, from what I got:- MS should be announcing the next Windows on June 24th.- MS would have decided to change versions (whereas they said they wouldn't) for the following reasons: first that the actual Win 10 versions were getting confusing (because you actually had Win 10 build xxxx, or Win 10 20Hx shit...) And so much for the rationale they had with the "last version" and rolling updates, which was to stop OS fragmentation. Actually, some major Win 10 updates created almost as much fragmentation than having to care about 8.1 and 10, for instance... And, second, their marketing department suddenly seems to have discovered that shipping a new Windows version would create a lot more traction than just indefinitely releasing updates of the same OS version. 2021 guys, we send stuff to Mars, and you discover that releasing a brand new version of some software gets people more excited than just an update?Anyway, how to run in circles.

author: coromonadalix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2021, 11:06:22 am
content: W10 mess they have said at one time ONE Windows to rule them all, past the W7 era, not a tons of skus variants sh#%@#$%# naming 20h1 .... and too many releases and borked updates ppffffEven playing with the leaked W11 not impressed, it's like they copied Mac and Nix variants ...And yes i have to battle my desire to have a local account, if not a simple Admin account without having something connected over the NET, It's my desire and my choice not your's Msoft pfffff

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2021, 06:23:39 pm
content: Sounds all too typical unfortunately, they always seem to try to copy all the annoying aspects of the Mac and miss the reasons people like Macs in the first place.Local account is mandatory for me, I absolutely refuse to link my PC to an online account. It must be able to function as a standalone device away from any internet connection.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2021, 06:31:50 pm
content: They don't just want to force online accounts. Apparently they also force OneDrive down your throat now.

author: DrG
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2021, 10:05:37 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on June 18, 2021, 04:53:39 pmYeahttps://www.cnn.com/2021/06/24/tech/windows-11-microsoft-event/index.htmlDoes this mean I have to retire my XP machine? (and eff *ux too)

author: olkipukki
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2021, 11:02:54 pm
content: "Windows 11 Will Run Android Apps From Amazon Appstore"Where all of these ideas came from?

author: eti
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2021, 11:27:54 pm
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on June 15, 2021, 03:31:14 pmThey already have, WITH Windows 10. Btw, Windows 11 is imminent, having been officially announced today. I know very little apart from what I've played with for half hr on the leaked build, and it's very nice - can't be any WORSE than the train wreck which is Win10!

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2021, 12:44:58 am
content: Bah, typical of them. Keeping a promise for a few years is ok - forever is a whole other story.Windows 10 is a shitshow in several fronts regarding sharing your crap with the world, but that is how they roll from now on. 100% sure that Win 11 will keep the trend. Oh well...

author: DEV001
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2021, 01:07:05 am
content: Microsoft announced back in 2015 stating it would be ~10 years.https://www.ghacks.net/2015/07/20/microsoft-to-support-windows-10-until-at-least-2025/If you have access to the LTSC edition, it is supported a few years longer. I recommend using the server versions as a workstation OS as you get the core OS without all the bloat of the consumer editions. No games pre-installed, No bloatware, no extra services, etc... You start with a base OS and add the specific features or roles you need.As a developer I have always kept a MSDN subscription as it gives you access to all of their OS/Dev tools going back to DOS. I logged in today and noticed Windows Server 2022 Preview is available for testing.Support Timeframes:Windows 10 2019 LTSCStart date: 2018-11-13End date: 2029-01-09Windows 10 Enterprise and EducationStart date: 2015-07-29End date: 2025-10-14

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2021, 01:25:27 am
content: Anyway, looks like the leaked version was the real thing. It's Windows 11 indeed, and looks like what has been tested.https://www.microsoft.com/windows/windows-11There's an app that's supposed to check that your computer will be compatible. The app only supports Win 10 though. So, if like me, you're still on 7 and are curious, it won't work. Now whether, when Win 11 is actually released, you'll be able to upgrade from Win 7, who knows.What I've seen is that Win 11 will require a TPM 2.0 module, activated in the BIOS. Otherwise, no Win 11. As we'd say in french, "pas de bras, pas de chocolat!".

author: Lindley
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2021, 08:10:13 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on June 25, 2021, 01:25:27 amIndeed, cannot quiet understand why they are going to block millions of PC users from upgrading to W11.Surely it would have been better to have TPM as an optional feature, not mandatory ?Our desktops mobo has a TPM socket but from the little info about them on the manufacturers site, even if we could get a TPM 2.0 module it probably would not work as it seems the Bios is only geared for v1.0 or v1.2 and why would they bother doing a TPM 2 Bios updates for older boards ?Believe many laptops have the TPM chip built in but again would it and the Bios be to V2.0 standards .

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2021, 09:20:11 pm
content: Quote from: Lindley on June 25, 2021, 08:10:13 pmBecause it's as much about selling new PCs as new OSes.

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2021, 09:31:42 pm
content: It's not the '90s, no one in his right mind would pay for yet another release of Windows. So they make it a free upgrade, and why would they give a damn about locking you out?Better go buy a new computer and pay the Windows tax on it. Oh, and don't forget to sign up for M$ Cloud, if we are at that.Windows is dead, I feel sorry for anyone who still has to use that platform in current year and can't get by with XP or 7.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2021, 09:33:39 pm
content: And you're right, laptops, unless pretty ancient, are much more likely to have a TPM 2.0 module than even reasonably recent desktop computers. So that will favor laptops as well.Given how they have put the Surface tablets forward during the W11 presentation, I'm pretty sure they want to specifically boost sales for the Surface.This is not surprising. It's not just about selling hardware IMO. They have been trying to get on the mobile market for a very long time now, with relatively little success overall. They probably want to make the Surface tablet with W11 tailored to it, their way to this market. I'm pretty sure they have aggressive goals getting a significant market share on tablets/hybrid laptops. They have been literally obsessed with the mobile market for more than a decade. Of course this is a major, and growing market to tap into, but they have really struggled so far.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2021, 09:36:33 pm
content: I'd pay for another release of Windows if it was actually better than Windows 7. So far everything they've released since has been worse in a multitude of ways. I'm not paying for a downgrade. The only reason 10 has achieved anywhere near the market share it has is because it was foisted on everyone extremely aggressively. The only people who didn't move over to it are the ones who went way out of their way and actively resisted.

author: DEV001
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2021, 12:08:45 am
content: A workaround for the TPM 2.0 requirement has already been created (via replacing a DLL on the ISO).https://fossbytes.com/solve-tpm-2-0-error-installing-windows-11-fixed/As I mentioned earlier in this thread, I highly recommend if you use your PC for engineering or development purposes and don't want to deal with all of the BS that comes with the consumer editions to use Windows Server as a desktop. It delivers what you expect Windows to behave like not forcing anything like pre-installed games and so many bloatware services which are attack vectors and UI/Tablet features that no professional user cares about. It isn't perfect but it is a much better and cleaner experience than the consumer versions as they know they can't get away with mucking it up for business customers.Here is a site that has some info on how to set it up if you haven't used it before.https://www.windowsworkstation.com/win2016-2019/Btw, most computers past ~2015 support TPM 2.0 but you have to enable it in the BIOS and a few other things mentioned below.1) Enable PTT (Intel) or fTPM (AMD) in the BIOS.2) Verify UEFI mode is enabled.3) Verify Windows is booting with a GPT partition. If not, use the MBR2GPT utility to fix.If you run 'Tpm.msc' it should show your TPM status.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2021, 04:29:00 pm
content: Thanks for mentioning the workaround for TPM. (Not sure I'll ever install Win 11, but that's good to know. But since Win 11 is supposed to ship next fall, MS might decide to make this workaround not work anymore now it is public. Or, they might decide to remove the requirement. Who knows.) Funnily enough, as someone commented on the page you linked, it's pretty funky that MS would release a new OS with hardware requirements that may force more people to upgrade their hardware than with the previous editions, in times of semiconductor shortage and prices skyrocketing. Now of course they may have planned this a long time ago, and may now hope the shortage will be over by fall. Which frankly is something I doubt.Regarding your suggestion, aren't Windows Server editions pretty expensive?I remember having done this with Windows 2003 Server. I skipped Windows XP at the time, and went from Windows 2000 to 2003 Server configured as a workstation. That worked very well. But at the time, it was easy to get ahold of Windows 2003 and use it without having to pay the full license. Not sure about recent editions...

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2021, 02:39:21 pm
content: +1 for using Server as a workstation, it is probably the most workable solution if you want/need Windows and want to maintain some semblance of control over your computer...

author: samnmax
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 28, 2021, 07:36:41 am
content: Quote from: wilfred on June 17, 2021, 12:40:22 pmMicrosoft Doors®Sadly, there's already a SW with that name, IBM's Rational DOORS, a requirements management tool whose interface is a crime against humanity (I have to suffer it occasionally).

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 28, 2021, 06:27:39 pm
content: Ah yes, the DOORS tool.Anyway. It's funny how the first announcement of EOL for Win 10 triggered some hopes. I even evoked a change of CEOs. A change of OS names.But in the end, noooooo. Still Windows (that could have been Win 10.1 for all we can see), and still the same nutty CEO obsessed with making users miserable.

author: Raj
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2021, 04:49:52 pm
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on June 15, 2021, 03:31:14 pmWe know computers well enough, right?I'm pretty sure that I'll be able to get a second hand computer from someone who couldn't figure out how to turn on secure boot and TPM on windows 11 compatible machine and chose to sell it instead.Maybe I'll even be able to get enough hard drives to build my first raid array

author: Raj
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2021, 05:35:13 pm
content: Quote from: themadhippy on June 15, 2021, 04:17:53 pmThat's why windows 11 is free upgrade. Otherwise there will be lawsuits(false adverts)Besides, they said, windows 10 is the last one you'll ever NEED, not want. Which is true for even windows 95Who wants all the windows 11 features anyway...It's like they really want to try out the windows 8 model again.They failed with windows 8 because no one used Nokia-windows phones.Android emulation was possible before windows 11 and no one used itThe default interface is made for touch screens, which again, most windows users don't use.But it feels like Microsoft has recognised the growing adoption of Android and want a piece of the pie.Maybe the TPM requirement is there, cause some Android apps need it to

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2021, 04:07:41 am
content: I can think of exactly zero reasons I'd want to run an Android app on Windows. I have an Android tablet floating around here somewhere, the only reason I ever want to use any of the apps it runs is because that's the only thing I can run on it.

author: Raj
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2021, 05:36:50 am
content: Quote from: james_s on July 01, 2021, 04:07:41 amDevelopers Developers Developers.make one app that runs everywhere.What I fail to understand is, why the heck they can't adopt web apps instead. Most apps are glorified web pages anyway. (the answer is , monetizing a web app is harder, Meanwhile putting an app on app store would mean, a single purchase means permission to install on a single device. Got more phones to install the same app on? buy more licenses)Also, web apps actually die when you close them, unlike apps that run in background.They also have less control over hardware.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2021, 06:27:02 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on July 01, 2021, 04:07:41 amAh well, that's right. Some people might want to be able to run Android apps on Windows though. For various reasons. That could include developers indeed.But, this was already possible. There are a number of Android emulators on the market allowing you to do exactly that. Installing one is a no-brainer for a developer. So certainly developers were not a target here.Including it for "free" on Windows is probably just yet another attempt to conquer the mobile market and steal market shares from Android. Nothing else.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2021, 07:59:32 pm
content: Quote from: Raj on July 01, 2021, 05:36:50 amI don't want one app that runs everywhere. If it runs everywhere then it has to be tailored to the lowest common denominator, a tiny pocket sized device without a real set of input devices and will not be taking advantage of all the features a full-fledged PC offers. It seems they're still obsessing over a one-size-fits-all unified experience which has proven time and again to not work. It always results in the PC side being compromosed to the limitations of a mobile device. I still remember the first time I saw Win8 thinking "wtf is this?!?" The "modern" apps were all full-screen only, it wasn't "windows" at all, it was "window". Absolutely absurd, the people who signed off on that must have been on drugs.

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2021, 08:46:34 pm
content: They aren't on drugs, they are thousands of people who have solved the problem they were being paid to solve so far and yet need to live off ofsomething.What would make you pay for yet another release of Windows? As for me, XP was the last version I had ever used.

author: langwadt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2021, 09:07:17 pm
content: Quote from: magic on July 01, 2021, 08:46:34 pmthat's why so many are moving to subscriptions. With out hardware development forcing people to buy a new versionof SW every few years (or the number of users keep growing) there's no business

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2021, 11:01:29 pm
content: Quote from: magic on July 01, 2021, 08:46:34 pmIf they offered a new version of Windows 7 with more or less the same nice polished UI on new framework with all the latest security updates and several years of patching with none of the freemium garbage, baked in cloud services, forced updates, lack of quality control and resulting half baked garbage I would be happy to pay full retail price for a couple of copies. I really hate how important security updates are mixed with pointless UI and feature updates. The LAST thing I want is stuff changing around, settings being reset, and trashware I don't want installed without my permission.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2021, 11:12:16 pm
content: Quote from: langwadt on July 01, 2021, 09:07:17 pmWhile I recognize the dilemma, subscription is unacceptable to me. I simply refuse to pay continuously for the privilege of using something that I'm accustomed to buying once and using for many years. Almost nobody bothers to buy the newest version of everything every time it comes out so the cost comparisons they show for perpetual vs subscription are always bogus. I don't think subscription is going to be sustainable for a lot of stuff either, companies like Adobe may be able to pull it off with Photoshop but for less unique software the mature nature of the product is allowing the open source options to catch up. When I can have someone buy me a copy of Office for $50 or whatever in the MS company store and use it for 10+ years I'd just buy it, but if I'm expected to subscribe and pay yearly forever, no way, OpenOffice or LibreOffice are good enough. I have a severe allergy to recurring expenses, especially if it's just to keep using something that is or could be completely standalone and isn't really offering any compelling reason to keep paying.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2021, 12:00:25 am
content: Quote from: james_s on July 01, 2021, 11:01:29 pmDitto.

author: Raj
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2021, 04:40:14 am
content: Apparent, now Microsoft is saying, they might add more CPUs to compatibility list, if their Dev version run fine on them. So instead of testing it themselves, they are saying, go test it for us.Quote from: james_s on July 01, 2021, 11:01:29 pmAah,Google and youtube mobile is even worse.Quote from: langwadt on July 01, 2021, 09:07:17 pmThe companies that do subscription are the new hype right now in the stock market.Quote from: james_s on July 01, 2021, 11:12:16 pmOpensource can never catch up, because of legal reasons (patents).

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2021, 05:17:56 am
content: Quote from: Raj on July 02, 2021, 04:40:14 amPatents on what? When has a patent ever stopped an open source program from doing something? At this point other than Windows itself almost all of the software I use is open source. There is less reason all the time to even consider anything else.

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2021, 05:33:38 am
content: Quote from: Raj on July 02, 2021, 04:40:14 amI was suspicious that the 'leak' versions never seemed to suffer any roadblocks. MS are going on about 'the experience' yet they persist in allowing these cheap OEM systems to be sold.Cheap department store computers nearly always have mis-matched CPU, FSB and memory. The three are chosen specifically because of cost, not performance of one against the other two.Every one knows that Windows is really Bloatly McBloatware. They don't care that W10 runs like shit on a brand new potato, but it only matters now that they are trying to sell the new version.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2021, 05:45:55 am
content: I have a hard time believing *any* currently manufactured PC is too slow to run Windows well. Even a Raspberry Pi 4 is perfectly usable as a desktop system and that's cost reduced to the max. A 10 year old midrange PC will run Windows 7/8/10 just fine.

author: RaymondMack
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2021, 07:01:04 am
content: Laugh all you want, but I actually grew to like Windows 8.1! I still have it on my desktop as it is the oldest OS that my i7-8700T / Z370 system will support. That said, I absolutely hated it on my Surface Pro 3 tablet! Turns out Win7 was unable to install do to some issue with UEFI and the Intel video bios. While the Win8 tablet user interface is an abomination, not everything was a step backwards. The task manager got a very nice overhaul and there are a few other things I liked over 7. I did grow to like the start page after fiddling with it. I had always felt the "start menu" was frustrating. Sifting through a list of folders to find a program is a pain. The start page has its own problems but it’s a step in the right direction--but I like Gnome, so my preferences may be biased.For people thinking of using a server OS for your daily driver, know that some software will NOT install due to licensing issues. I have tried going the server-as-a-workstation route and it is not always a smooth transition. And then there are potential driver issues to work around as well.I just wish Microsoft could branch out like Apple has done with their OS development. And by this, I mean make a tablet only OS. That way desktop systems don't need to deal with touch UI features that made Win8 so stupid on a normal desktop. They should also make a strictly "workstation" OS without any "online" features like OneDrive, Microsoft Account and so on that has full backwards compatibility support for old programs. This would make them money and avoid all the hate they get for foisting BS "cutting edge" features down everyone's throats. Professions need to have a reliable OS that doesn't get daily updates that can break their systems and require forced reboots. The LTSC release of Win10 is NOT the right OS for workstations. LTSB was a step in the right direction but MS decided to abandon the idea of a "classic" Windows OS that didn't have forced updates and forced integration of "online/cloud" features.I do find it hilarious that the new Win11 UI is an unholy fusion of Mac OS and the Gnome desktop environment.I for one will be moving over to Linux after Win8.1 stops getting security updates. The primary issue I've encountered with Linux--that has often kept me from transitioning--is that it has shit support for the latest HW. If you are running an old system, then the experience is actually pleasant. But you install the latest Wi-Fi card and bam, no support. Or your CPU runs hotter because the CPUs advanced power savings features aren't supported. A real deal breaker for laptops. Linux will always be two steps behind Windows in HW support. This fact has never changed in all my testing over the years.

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2021, 08:49:31 am
content: Quote from: james_s on July 01, 2021, 11:01:29 pmThat's what I mean: Windows is a solved problem. You don't want new features, they don't care about rewriting things that ain't broke, there is no business in it anymore besides maintenance. You don't really need new Windows, you want Windows 7 LTS. Many other users would even be happy with XP LTS.They can scale down and become a small project catering to a small niche of users, perhaps a shrinking one at that (kids these days), or they can show you the finger and go for new and juicy markets like all the billions of idiots who are just barely smart enough to purchase a phone or a tablet.

author: Raj
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2021, 09:28:26 am
content: Quote from: james_s on July 02, 2021, 05:17:56 amLike most photoshop tools can't be implemented because of patents....take AI based stamping tools for eg...which is used to generate grass, crowd etc, where there were none, (like behind a deleted person of an image).Quote from: Ed.Kloonk on July 02, 2021, 05:33:38 amAs far as I know, it's still running the windows 10 kernel (exact down to a byte)Quote from: james_s on July 02, 2021, 05:45:55 amI think they have plans to screw that up later on.Quote from: RaymondMack on July 02, 2021, 07:01:04 amTrue. No single device can "do all the thing perfectly". Phones need to be like phones and desktops need to be like desktop. Apple knows that fact well.Quote from: magic on July 02, 2021, 08:49:31 amIt's the UI and Graphics department's ploy to keep themselves employed. They keep convincing the management that they are necessary.What's worse is, when these people get replaced, the newer ones seem to think that they are the boss, their way is the right way and users are idiots, thus end up reducing the customization options instead. XP was peak design with a lots of customization features.Now we can't even set a shutdown sound

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2021, 05:22:54 pm
content: Quote from: magic on July 02, 2021, 08:49:31 amYeah. There's still a couple fixes I would like to see in Windows 7 (apart from potential security fixes): both with the file explorer. And that MS never cared to fix.One is with file refresh. Many times, but somewhat randomly (at least, I can't find a pattern), the content of open, folders in the file explorer is not automatically updated when there is a change (file or directory modified/removed outside of the explorer, for instance). This used to work perfectly fine in older Windows versions. The problem is not just with distant directories of course. Files/directories on the network, I can understand why they can't be updated in near real-time. But with local files and folders? That's unbelievable. Often you have to manually refresh with F5. That's a well known bug, I had found a KB entry for it, but MS never fixed it.The other is with folder view settings. Randomly, some folders will lose their view settings. The one I've seen this bug most often with is the "Devices and Printers" folder, but I've also very occasionally seen this with other folders. Sometimes the navigation bar will just disappear for no reason. Or the view type (List, Details, etc.) will change on its own. Most often occurs when you leave explorer windows open, shut down your computer and start it again, so this one may be linked to the option of saving open file explorer windows and restoring them upon reboot.Of course, one can use a third-party file explorer instead. I've tried Explorer++, which is not too bad, but it's not quite right either and is of course a lot less integrated than the native explorer...

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2021, 05:58:21 pm
content: Quote from: magic on July 02, 2021, 08:49:31 amBut I would pay for it, like I have previous versions of Windows. There is value in support for the latest hardware and software, security updates, bug fixes and other behind the scenes improvements, I would pay for an upgrade that still had the same UI as the previous version, the UI is a solved problem but there is an ongoing need for other improvements. The problem is they keep making the UI and UX worse and worse and that to me negates all of the other improvements.

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2021, 04:22:40 pm
content: Chrome OS is open source apart from some blobs for drivers and works just fine regardless of patents, using an OS where you are the product has some privacy issues but it works fine.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2021, 04:31:39 pm
content: The Chrome OS is a good proposition and the chrome books work really well. That was my preference when we had online school last year, as the TCO was lower (I didn't really have to worry about A/V software) and I didn't have to worry about constant updates that broke things, like on a Windows 10.Unfortunately Alphabet's greed to collect all sorts of data makes it a hard big no-no for my regular use.I am writing these words in an Acer C720 repurposed with Q4OS after Google decided to stop supporting this system.

author: HobGoblyn
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 07, 2021, 07:59:11 am
content: Yep, my I7 32GB PC that runs all my audio software perfectly, incompatible with win 11.The message I got was I need an 8th generation i7.This was a high end PC when I built it, I’ve no desire to spend a small fortune building a new one when my existing one is 100% fine, will give win11 a miss.There will be thousands and thousands of incompatible PCs out there.

author: HobGoblyn
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 07, 2021, 08:02:51 am
content: If I remember correctly, for windows home edition users, having an online event MS account will be mandatory if you wish to install win11.Yep, just found ithttps://www.microsoft.com/en-gb/windows/windows-11-specifications

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2021, 03:51:17 pm
content: Quote from: HobGoblyn on July 07, 2021, 07:59:11 amDoes it actually refuse to install, as opposed to just claiming on the box that it is not compatible?

author: Raj
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2021, 04:17:02 pm
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on July 07, 2021, 03:51:17 pmFor now, you can even install without TPM...

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2021, 05:51:20 pm
content: The processor support will be much more problematic than the TPM thing. Of course Core i7 processors from older generations than 8th are still perfectly capable. The top of the range ones are even clearly more powerful than the entry-level 8th generation ones...While I was upgrading hardware every 2 years on average, until a few years ago, I have drastically increased this period, for a few years now. The performance gap has become almost insignificant for most uses, so that now looks like a waste of money.MS might relax hardware requirements by the time Windows 11 ships, though. Still. Windows is dead to me.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2021, 01:15:19 am
content: If the final version of Windows 10 is a good one, it might be worth using as it will remain stable with no feature updates...

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2021, 02:46:12 am
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on July 07, 2021, 05:51:20 pmIndeed. My Gigabyte Extreme EX58 with 24GB and running a 6 core Xeon W3690 is still quite a powerful machine that will not be supported by Win11.Quote from: SilverSolder on July 08, 2021, 01:15:19 amIndeed. Well, until the scare police says your OS cannot be supported anymore and you will get viruses and trojans on D-day+1 after the cutoff date...

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2021, 07:03:09 am
content: Quote from: rsjsouza on July 08, 2021, 02:46:12 amI've never seen that threat pan out. I know some will disagree vehemently but whatever, I ran XP for years after support was dropped, I'm still running Win7, now years since support was dropped and I turned off Windows Update completely once they started pushing Win10 so hard. I've cleaned up scores of infected machines for people over the years and the thing that absolutely every one of them had in common is that the user installed something sketchy and infected it. Fully patched and up to date or not updated in years, it never mattered, people installed stuff that was infected or bundled with malware, completely bypassing all of the protection offered by the OS. I've never in my entire life seen a desktop PC infected via an unpatched exploit. Script blocker and ad blocker on an up to date browser provides a lot more security benefit than OS patches.Now a very important thing to emphasize, I'm talking about a PC that sits behind a NAT/firewall, this is NOT the case for a server that is right out there on the internet exposed to the public, those absolutely get exploited and keeping them up to date is vital, but on an internal network, never seen it, not without the user installing something. I'm not claiming it's impossible, but it's one of those things like getting run over by a bus or killed by a tree falling on your house, it can happen but with a little common sense it's rare enough that it isn't something that keeps me awake at night worrying over.

author: HobGoblyn
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 08, 2021, 07:41:52 am
content: Quote from: Raj on July 07, 2021, 04:17:02 pmThe MS insider won’t let me download it as my pc is incompatible. Sure there’s probably download links elsewhere, but as I’m in the MS insider program, I’d have thought it would let me download it if they wanted me to run with my specs.Just watched this YouTube vid which says all 7 of the PC’s in his house are incompatible, as are many ones available to buy today on the likes of Newegg or Amazon.https://youtu.be/qrH4zEBmztc

author: Raj
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2021, 09:04:47 am
content: Quote from: HobGoblyn on July 08, 2021, 07:41:52 amThe trick for now, is to use "windows to go" feature from a compatible device. i don't know how, exactly...but I did read about it somewhere.

author: rdl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 09, 2021, 02:11:21 am
content: I've always used Linux to download Windows iso files from Microsoft, mainly to avoid all the butt sniffing they like to do. Does that not work for Windows 11?I guess it still might not install though.

author: coromonadalix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 12, 2021, 02:37:28 pm
content: search for uup download website... it will work with aria2 to download the win 11 files and compile an iso or an multi iso ... and a special script was supposed to be available to help install w11 on older non tpm machines .... they hack / mod boot.win and the machine detection file(s)Done that on an old i5-7400, b250 chipset work pretty well, havent tried to update it to the latest builds

author: GlennSprigg
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2021, 12:08:44 pm
content: I always wonder why people 'worry' about supposed "Support Endings" !!There's still numerous people still using Win-7, and are perfectly happy with it, considering their individual 'needs'No more support??... great!!... No more forced nagging downloads/upgrades for an older system to constantly churn over!!Ok, you need certain security updates, etc., but in the end Win-10 can be updated as far as you wish to go, and we deleteand dis-able all the CRAP that was in it, (as we all now know how to!!), and it will function fine for MANY years to come !For crying out loud, probably 80% or more 'computers' (laptops) are only used by gaming youngsters, and most of the restat home are only surfing the Net, sending Emails, and watching Youtube... (& Porn?). There is only a relatively small portionof us that are into complex spreadsheets, coding, graphics & countless other real tech usage. We are not talking about thelikes of National Security, or the Space Administration here... It will all be ok!!!

author: GlennSprigg
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2021, 01:07:52 pm
content: Quote from: PKTKS on June 15, 2021, 03:46:21 pmI say this with "Tongue In Cheek", but every time I ever see comments by you, you seem to be a very angry man!!!I don't know what it's like in Brazil, but maybe tomorrow, when you wake up.... you see the sun shining, and hear the birdssinging, and think "This is going to be a lovely day!"... Only stirring mate...

author: DrG
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2021, 01:34:07 pm
content: One of the disadvantages of using a Win OS that is "out of support" is that software developers will not make versions of software that work on the old OS (why should they?).e.g., Have a Windows XP machine? Newer Firefox versions stopped supporting it a while ago...you are stuck with older versions. Web sites are more interested in developing for phones rather than making things still working with old Win versions. Same with other "common" software - even antivirus software becomes difficult. Now, I have to deal with different software on different machines - it is a waste of time for me to learn (or remember) different way to do the same thing on multiple machines. With those old USB ports and slots, you get hardware limitations as well. For dedicated purposes, they are still fine, but if it is a desktop, you have a lot of space taken up for decreasing gain.It has not become that bad with 7 yet, but it is not far off. Yeah, it's a racket. I have two XP machines within eye reach at the moment. I have no idea what I will do with them - that's what I get for keeping a machine for more than 10 years. True, 25 years ago, I would have dyed my nut hairs orange to have that much computing power.I have no reason NOT to accept WIN 11 other than I'm lazy, I know it will peak suck for the first year, I have to buy more crap and find more space. Did I say "no reason"? Maybe "no choice" is a better phrase.That is the way I feel right now and I know that there are comebacks to each of those issues, but they have their disadvantages as well...I just try to remember that I have these machines to help me do stuff easily...that was the idea anyways.I had a Linux 'box' when the version of it used to called Kernel 1. I installed and used FreeBSD on a 486 machine. Hell, I still have all 3 volumes of those Stevens books to learn TCP/IPThe Win stacks for that stuff were seriously crippled. But, as things evolved, I relented - I always thought WordPerfect was better than Word (at the time), but with Office and everybody in the workplace going there - it became a matter of how much time do I want to spend "learning" and how much time do I want to spend "doing"?Now what am I supposed to do - become a Linux fanboy to run software that has the look and feel of Win crap?Yeah, I know...rantings of a curmudgeon, but I say ...here are your gold coins Caesar, now go eff yourself.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2021, 02:58:25 pm
content: The issue is, if you have older hardware as well (printers, musical instruments, whatever) that are no longer supported on the new version of Windows... then it becomes expensive to upgrade.The "solution" that Big Tech is pushing us all into is to subscribe to everything... so you end up paying a hefty monthly bill (if you have multiple computers and applications).The alternative is, perhaps, to own just one PC that is bang up to date for secure, "official" work... - and be OK with owning several older ones as well, that work fine for various hobby purposes?

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2021, 08:41:44 pm
content: The older hardware thing is a serious issue, it's easy for people to say "just buy new hardware" and that might be reasonable for mice, joysticks, webcams and stuff like that but there is a lot of stuff where that is not reasonable at all. There is test equipment that costs thousands of dollars to replace. My partner has a fancy Bernina sewing and embroidery machine that cost around $5k, about $5k worth of assorted accessories and add-ons for it and another $5k or so worth of software, all of it originally purchased by my grandmother around 16 years ago. For a long time we couldn't even use the software because the hardware lock had gone missing in the process of going through my grandma's estate. Finally just recently I found an old parallel port dongle in a box of random stuff my dad had and discovered that it works with one of the versions of the software we have. Fortunately there was also a 2005 era laptop running Windows XP with a real parallel port on it so now that machine is dedicated to the embroidery stuff. Replacing everything with modern hardware that works with a modern OS would be at least a $10k investment, that's a steep price to pay for hobby toys to replace existing hardware that still works just because progress marches on.That would still be cheaper than subscribing in the long run though.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2021, 09:19:46 pm
content: Yeah.I have a nice Focusrite audio interface (on Firewire). Support is broken starting with some build of Windows 10 (I use it on 7 for now...) Let alone Windows 11. Trashing the interface would make absolutely no sense. Especially just for switching to an OS that, apart from being "up to date", would have almost everything to annoy the hell out of me. Hello?But... I didn't try so far, but it should be supported by ALSA on Linux. So... that will be yet another reason to switch to Linux when Windows stops being usable for me.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2021, 09:22:52 pm
content: Quote from: GlennSprigg on July 22, 2021, 12:08:44 pmI have been using TurboTax software for years, renewing it every year.(There is an old accountants' axiom that tax law changes will always obsolete last year's tax software.)In 2020, my old Windows 7 laptop was dying (the famous Toshiba overheating problem), so I upgraded to a Windows 10 machine. This was fortunate, since the TurboTax software for tax year 2020 no longer runs on W7, but ran on my new W10 machine. This is a real problem for "support endings", even with non-MS software.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2021, 09:56:01 pm
content: Quote from: TimFox on July 23, 2021, 09:22:52 pmJust move to H&R Block.(I didn't have this problem with H&R Block 2020 on my Windows 7)Jokes apart, this is indeed frustrating but somehow inevitable with the software-based world we live.I would probably create a VM with the tax software and perhaps other less machine-dependent application software. For hardware constrained apps, I still have quite a few old spares around.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2021, 12:59:01 am
content: I've always used the web based Turbotax. Normally I loathe web based software but tax preparation is one of the few cases where this model really makes sense. It always seemed pointless to buy a boxed software package and install it on my PC when it is only useful that one time and then I'm going to throw it away. The web based one worked just fine on my Win7 machine.

author: GlennSprigg
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2021, 10:46:17 am
content: Quote from: james_s on July 24, 2021, 12:59:01 amGood point, but I generally loath/distrust online/cloud/web-based stuff, for reasons of data security...

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2021, 01:30:28 pm
content: Quote from: GlennSprigg on July 26, 2021, 10:46:17 amI am with you on this front as well.I just remembered that, back in 2016 at around the tax season, I downgraded my PC from Windows 10 to 7 due to the furious dissemination of MS spyware/tracking stuff in the new OS. I was really afraid that keyboard trackers were surreptitiously placed in my PC.