X-ray component reel counter - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2018, 06:18:18 pm
content: OK I can see that this is a neat idea - count parts on reels quickly without breaking the seal, but I wonder how many people need this enough for the doubtless high (guessing somewhere between $50K and $100K) price ?And of those people, how many don't already have an inventory system to keep track of part usagehttp://www.optical-control.de/oc-scan-ccx-3/?lang=en#software-en

author: mrpackethead
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2018, 12:47:39 am
content: Maybe useful if you've got everything else and need a new toy. At the cost of most of my passives, its cheaper to have aother reel on the shelf? 0603 reistors are $3/5000. I'm not sure spending $100k on such a device would be useful. Unless its not 50k. Maye its 5k

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2018, 01:02:23 am
content: Quote from: mrpackethead on April 01, 2018, 12:47:39 amIf it has any sort of X-ray in it and is made in small qtys like this doubtless is, it is not going to be anywhere near $5K. I'd be surprised if any X-ray tube costs much less than that, before you even start looking at detectors.Looking at the size I'd guess it probably isn't a flat-panel sensor - that would add maybe $20-30K to the BOM for startersIt does look like a 1-product company so maybe it's a dude in a shed recycling old dental heads and pointing a camera at a scintillator plate out of a film cassette....

author: mrpackethead
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2018, 01:19:02 am
content: $5-$10k xray is a bit of a dream! Maybe one day.

author: NorthGuy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2018, 01:35:51 am
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on April 01, 2018, 01:02:23 amMu dentist recently equipped every seat with a digital X-ray machine and huge TV to show the results to the patients. I seriously doubt he would do this if they were $50K per piece.

author: filssavi
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2018, 01:47:46 am
content: Quote from: NorthGuy on April 01, 2018, 01:35:51 amYou have to ask yourself how many dentist x ray unit a producer sells a year,, since there are very few producers and a whole lot of dentists in the world I’d say a lot (I don’t have number but I would guess in the 10k to 100k range)By contrast how many part counting machines you can hope to sell, 100 to 1K if you are really luky?That is economy of scale baby... to

author: KE5FX
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2018, 01:49:19 am
content: Clever idea. The component density can be assumed to be uniform in most cases, so you wouldn't need a very large sensor panel as long as the sensor is big enough to capture a complete radial section. For a given reel position, the angle subtended at each scanline is easy enough to determine. It's just a rudimentary image-processing problem at that point.QuoteYou don't know many dentists... or at least, not the ones around here. They are gadget freaks.Richgadget freaks.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2018, 04:04:19 am
content: Dental xray machines are not particularly expensive, IIRC they start at around $3k for a brand new machine with $5k being more typical for a modern inverter drive type. If you want digital that adds another $2-$4k for the sensor and related equipment. Larger general diagnostic machines cost more, the midrange rotating anode veterinary machine the clinic my other half manages cost around $18k plus I think they spent another $25k on a digital flat panel sensor system to go with it.Now if you're willing to go with used equipment, I've seen older but fully functional dental machines go for a few hundred bucks, and heads containing the tube and HV transformer for well under $100.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2018, 07:33:49 am
content: Some prices for dental X-ray systemshttps://www.qudent.co.uk/large-equipment/digital-imaging/intraoral-x-ray.htmlhttps://www.qudent.co.uk/large-equipment/digital-imaging/sensors.htmlBut as mentioned, this is a huge market relatively speaking. Also, dental tubes may not have the resolution to count 01005s.I doubt they would go to the expense of a full-frame panel sensor for something like this - there's no particular need to get an instant image, or even limit the dose, so probably line-scan.Couldn't immediately find any patents, but came across not one but two other systemshttps://visiconsult.de/huge-global-success-for-visiconsults-smd-counting-system/http://www.scienscope.com/new-product-axi-5100c/Spec on latter lists 90kv 5 micron spot microfocus tube, 8kpixel linescan sensor and a crapload of robotics - price has to be a long way into 5 figures:

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2018, 07:36:31 am
content: And another one...

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2018, 07:40:11 am
content: This is a classic case of a novel application of existing technology where someone could have got in first with a patent and cornered the market.

author: TheAmmoniacal
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 01, 2018, 07:53:21 am
content: Would love to know who uses these..

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2018, 08:01:11 am
content: And they keep coming - another two....https://www.w-tech.fr/en/component-packaging/chip-counter/x-ray-counter-http://www.buykorea.or.kr/product-details/Automatic-X-ray-Chip-Counter--3051127.htmlI suppose the issue is that in a large production environment, the cost of unexpectedly running out of a part is potentially huge

author: TheAmmoniacal
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 01, 2018, 08:05:21 am
content: What about the need to keep the reels sealed? I can imagine many cheaper methods of counting a reel if I could re-reel it, not using x-ray.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2018, 09:06:39 am
content: Quote from: TheAmmoniacal on April 01, 2018, 08:05:21 amI think there are multiple issues - sealing ( and documenting the process for traceability) is definitely a major one, potential damage to tape/parts falling out is another, and speed, which appears to be the headline feature on most of these X-ray unitsAn issue with doing it mechanically is the wide range of shapes & sizes of tapes, and having a take-up reel of every sizehttps://www.aliexpress.com/item/110V-220V-Automatic-SMD-Parts-Counter-Components-Counting-Machine-1PCS/32834836570.html?ws_ab_test=searchweb0_0,searchweb201602_2_10152_10065_10151_10344_10068_10130_5722815_10324_10342_10547_10325_10343_10340_10341_5722915_10548_5722615_10696_10192_10190_10084_10083_10618_10307_10301_10303_5722715_10059_10184_10534_100031_10103_441_10624_10623_10622_5722515_10621_10620,searchweb201603_25,ppcSwitch_2&algo_expid=7e71f579-9a27-4806-9aad-51bcd5b587f4-0&algo_pvid=7e71f579-9a27-4806-9aad-51bcd5b587f4&priceBeautifyAB=0

author: TheAmmoniacal
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 01, 2018, 09:16:34 am
content: That's almost exactly what I had in mind. Didn't even know these things existed!

author: ar__systems
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2018, 01:27:02 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on April 01, 2018, 08:01:11 amSo buy 10 more reels... Who cares if a reel is short of one or two parts?

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2018, 03:46:23 pm
content: Quote from: ar__systems on April 01, 2018, 01:27:02 pmRemember some reels can potetntially be a few $K worth....Knowing whether or not there are enough parts on a reel to finish a job is also going to be valuable in high-throughput situations where you don;t want to have a machine idling while someone chages a reel

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2018, 05:09:29 pm
content: Dental tubes have typically a 0.8mm to 1mm spot size, so they offer very high resolution, on good quality film I was able to image the bond wires in tiny SMT packages. What they can't do is high power, so you need a relatively long exposure when using a much larger tube to film distance to get the larger size image and high resolution. This is not a problem for inanimate objects but then another limiting factor is total anode heat so for something you'd be using for long periods you'd want a larger tube.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2018, 06:09:17 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on April 01, 2018, 05:09:29 pmif you're trying to image 01005's edge-on clearly enough to count I'd think you'll need something smaller

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2018, 09:23:38 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on April 01, 2018, 06:09:17 pmI haven't tried, although I suspect a dental tube could do it, I mean if you can see the bond wires in SC70 transistors surely you could get a sufficiently clear image of just about any component in a plastic reel, which for all practical purposes is completely transparent. The further the source from the subject, the smaller the effective focal spot. You can also put a distance between the subject and the film/sensor to get a magnification effect, at the expense of detail. Distance between the tube and film requires a longer exposure or higher current according to the inverse square law. To get a smaller focal spot tubes typically use a flatter anode angle which has the side effect of producing a narrower and less symmetric beam.Back when I was experimenting with this stuff the limiting factor was the scanner I had to scan the film with, the original image was roughly twice as sharp with better contrast.

author: rx8pilot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2018, 01:47:22 am
content: I think I could see a rather high value for something like this. Most inventory control schemes are very dependent on people doing something. A system like this can identify some costly errors - like when an operator uses a reel of 50v cap to cover for shortage of 35v caps - but fails to log them. The next job needs the 50v parts and they show up just fine in the 'system' - yet they will be short with no options available.Whatever the errors - physically counting parts is obviously necessary and generally slow. In a large operation, just buying loads of excess adds up really fast. Hell, in my micro-operation, all of my excess is nearly out of control. Out of fear that I would run out, I simply purchased more stuff - now I have a lot of parts with unknown value until I look into each one. Probably talking about 300-500 unique parts and many thousands of $$. Many of them are unlikely to ever get used. Multiply that time about 100,000x in a real production operation and it would be rather crazy.

author: rx8pilot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2018, 01:49:18 am
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on April 01, 2018, 06:09:17 pmThose things are essentially dust.....

author: NorthGuy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2018, 09:13:46 pm
content: Quote from: rx8pilot on April 02, 2018, 01:47:22 amHow would counting machine help in this situation?

author: rx8pilot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2018, 09:38:43 pm
content: Quote from: NorthGuy on April 02, 2018, 09:13:46 pmIf I had even a clue how many parts I had before I set out to make a package of PCB's - I would not be ordering so many extra parts. At the moment, I have a half-baked system and counting takes a very long time. When I am in a rush (pretty much always) - I just over buy.The consequences of running out of anything can have a severe financial penalty. Over-buying all the time also has considerable penalties, just less than missing deadlines.If I had an easy and reliable system to keep track of parts - it would save a lot of time and money. At the moment - I spend a lot of time counting and/or a lot of money buying parts that will never get used.I am a long way from utilizing a mega $$$ x-ray machine, just saying that there is value in fast/easy inventory control if your operation is past a certain scale threshold.

author: NorthGuy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2018, 03:36:24 am
content: Quote from: rx8pilot on April 02, 2018, 09:38:43 pmHave you tried using some sort of inventory tracking with software? Seems easier than counting.

author: rx8pilot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2018, 03:43:58 am
content: Quote from: NorthGuy on April 03, 2018, 03:36:24 amI sort of have a system, but it relies on me remembering to enter all the data - detailed BOM, changes, substitutions, mess-up, prototypes, etc......It gets real ugly real fast. Any system that relies heavily on people to enter accurate data everytime they do something, is not a good system.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2018, 04:09:19 am
content: I wonder if weight would work? A sensitive scale might provide an accurate enough measurement to adequately approximate the number of components in a reel. Even the xray counter would rely on some manual work to setup and maintain an inventory though in either case having a barcode on the reels of parts could help to automate part of the process.

author: ar__systems
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2018, 10:15:21 am
content: Quote from: rx8pilot on April 03, 2018, 03:43:58 amThis is how everything in our society works - law, medicine, aircraft maintenance. Maybe the system does not work for you, but it does not mean the system is bad...

author: NorthGuy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2018, 01:01:10 pm
content: Quote from: rx8pilot on April 03, 2018, 03:43:58 amIt might be possible to hack PnP software to record inventory changes every time it picks up something.

author: rx8pilot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2018, 02:21:03 pm
content: Quote from: ar__systems on April 03, 2018, 10:15:21 amI agree....those disciplines you listed are examples of massive human effort. My unrealistic self sees anything less than fully automated as totally inefficient, lol.

author: JohnG
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2018, 03:29:30 pm
content: Quote from: ar__systems on April 03, 2018, 10:15:21 amI don't know about law, but there is a lot of automation in aircraft maintenance and diagnostics already, and more on the way, because the cost of the necessary checks is so high. It is also the impetus behind electronic health records for medicine, where mistakes happen surprisingly often, sometimes with deadly consequences. Medicine is particularly difficult because its practice still involves a lot of art and intuition and there are privacy considerations. However, preventing debilitating or deadly mistakes has high priority.John

author: rx8pilot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2018, 03:57:17 pm
content: There are a lot of automation examples in medicine for sure, but the success of the system as a whole is still hugely dependent on the people inputting relevant and valid data in an exact format.They have dispensing and dosing machines, e-charts, cameras, sensors, software, etc, etc that are all trying to reduce the human errors and omissions. It is a tough challenge, but the nature of that industry (life-death-money) - they spend $gazillions$ to save time and patients. I wish I had any budget at all, lol.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2018, 06:39:19 am
content: Quote from: rx8pilot on April 03, 2018, 03:57:17 pmHey - let's connect them all together on the internet, what could possibly go wrong..

author: ar__systems
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 05, 2018, 02:41:46 pm
content: Let's turn it up a notch or two. How about full ofiice x-ray scan? It will give you exact count of all of the reels. As a bonus it will also tell you where that stupid wrench is that you misplaced last month

author: rx8pilot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2018, 12:10:30 am
content: Nothing will find that stupid wrench..... or my car keys.Short and misplld from my mobile......

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2018, 09:05:15 am
content: Quote from: rx8pilot on April 06, 2018, 12:10:30 amI've seriously thought of putting a dashcam in the workshop.to help find stuff I just put doen somewhere

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2018, 09:23:45 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on April 06, 2018, 09:05:15 amMy favorite is when I look all over for something then realize I'm holding it in my other hand. Doesn't happen often but it has happened enough.