HP/Agilent 53310A Modulation Domain Analyser / Frequency-Time-Interval Analyser - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2020, 02:58:57 pm
content: I've some boring jobs that I ought to do, but as a displacement activity I'll remind people of adifferentand neat piece of kit. The truly sad amongst you will note that most of this has already been seen, but is now buried and forgotten in the TEA thread. So sue me.Inevitably I have far too many boxes that draw graphs of voltage-vs-time (scopes), too many that draw voltage-vs-frequency (spetrum analysers), but until recently nothing that would complete the triumvirate by drawing frequency-vs-time (a modulation domain analyser MDA). I did buy an HP5371 cheaply last year, but it was effin heavy, junk and ended up in the skip – after I rescued an HP10811-60111 OCXO.So I've been keeping an eye out for an MDA, but mostly they are £600+P&P (on my limit for a toy), often have dents, and even if a display is shown, the self-check screen shows a fault. Not interested. I finally found one at a decent price (even with shipping included) and after remembering to change the voltage settings, I'm a happy camper.So, what can you do with it? Obviously look at modulated signals up to 200MHz (ch A) or 2.5GHz (ch C), e.g. FM/PSK, or VCO transients as they change frequency. But, since it is fancifully and accurately described as afrequency microscopeyou can domuchmore interesting things than that.The first task was to look at the output of my OCXO as it turned on and warmed up. The display isn't wonderful, but the top thin band shows a "panorama" of the entire f-vs-t graph captured over 800s, and the lower main section is a narrow window of that display.The first thing to note is the number of digits in the frequency display, and that the vertical frequency scale is +-200Hz. The OCXO starts off 200Hz (20ppm) low, but after 400s it looks pretty close to nominal, but how close?Or the same information presented as a histogram, vertical scale is logarithmic.Looking at the histogram of the stable oscillator shows that (relative to the MDA's internal oscillator) it is 621mHz (62ppblow), with an RMS noise of 216mHz. "Frequency microscope" indeed, plus yet another reason for telling people that the M/m difference does matterBut, arguably more interestingly, even with a 200MHz input, it can measure sub-nanosecondrisetimes, roughly equivalent to a 1GHz or faster scope. The technique is to measure connect both channels A and B to the same input, channel A with a threshold at 10%, channel B at 90%, and measure the time difference between the two inputs with a resolution of 70ps.I've previously measured my 74lvc1g14 step generator as having a risetime of ~250ps. The MDA indicates 370ps (and 200ps for 20%-80%). That's close since it is pushing the limits of the instrument; I need to sit down and fully understood the specification graphs in the manual.And I'm sure it can do more strange and wonderful thingsFor example, I really must get around to looking at the 1Hz and 1MHz outputs from a cheap GPS receiver, to see if there are glitches and/or cycle slips. Yes, I could just about do that with a logic analyser, but an MDA would be a better tool for that job.

author: PA0PBZ
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2020, 06:04:12 pm
content: Interesting: Agilent on the front, HP on the CRT

author: maxwell3e10
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2020, 06:19:22 pm
content: Welcome to the club! I first heard about HP53310 on here and now have four of them between home and work

author: PA0PBZ
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2020, 06:20:04 pm
content: Quote from: maxwell3e10 on August 18, 2020, 06:19:22 pmI have only oneSo far

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2020, 07:26:53 pm
content: Quote from: PA0PBZ on August 18, 2020, 06:04:12 pmI always used to say, after the princess Fiorina saga, "the real HP still exists, but it is called Agilent now".

author: DeepLink
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2020, 07:51:35 pm
content: Quote from: maxwell3e10 on August 18, 2020, 06:19:22 pmSo you are to blame, that I can’t find a decent priced unit

author: Tomorokoshi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2020, 08:19:54 pm
content: One of these years I'll finish my "Scope Wars: The MDA Strikes Back" project.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2020, 08:24:54 pm
content: Quote from: Tomorokoshi on August 18, 2020, 08:19:54 pmOooh! That sounds like anexcellenttrollMake sure you publicise it so I can have a ringside seat

author: 0culus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2020, 10:04:23 pm
content: Nice writeup! I'm going to have to try that risetime measurement...I have two of these...the one I use the most is in better shape and has Option 31 (I added the deep memory option myself). Deep memory is easily added (you need 4 of a specific SRAM and to move a couple of jumpers), and it noticeably improves performance when using the panorama mode.

author: syau
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2020, 01:09:51 am
content: Replacing the caps in the power supply is mandatory

author: kj7e
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2020, 02:25:51 pm
content: See here for power supply re-cap BOM (bottom of linked post);https://www.eevblog.com/forum/repair/hp-53310a-power-supply-troubles/msg2365593/#msg2365593

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2020, 04:09:12 pm
content: Quote from: kj7e on August 19, 2020, 02:25:51 pmUseful. Thanks for the cross-referenceandthe BOM.

author: 0culus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2020, 02:47:35 am
content: Can you share the exact settings you are using for risetime measurements? I must have something set up wrong because I get 1 uS for every step-like signal I try, including one that is definitely faster (confirmed by a manual measurement on my 7104).

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2020, 07:53:23 am
content: Quote from: 0culus on August 20, 2020, 02:47:35 amGoogling for "hp53310a risetime measurement" leads tohttps://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hp-53310a-modulation-domain-analyzer-79866/?action=dlattach;attach=706314I probably got it from there.The only tricky part was setting the voltages manually. I probably did something like changing the voltage level until it didn't trigger, then calculating the 10% and 90% levels and entering those explicitly.

author: 0culus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2020, 02:20:47 am
content: Quote from: tggzzz on August 20, 2020, 07:53:23 amThanks, that document has a lot of useful info. I'll play around with tweaking the settings this weekend.

author: artag
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2020, 08:30:19 pm
content: A better link for that document : the copy on eevblog is from google's cache and doesn't have functional links to a number of useful references.https://web.archive.org/web/20150301064951/http://www.gellerlabs.com/hp53310A.htm