I think I hate this thing already... - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Ampera
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2017, 03:45:45 pm
content: https://volta.computer/So I found this on twitter thanks to the awesome Lazy Game Reviews (Who is awesome and you should check him out). He seemed pretty hype about it (Probably because it's wood and he likes wood), but I have some major issues with it.First, this screams wanky gimmicks to me. They claim that Americans throw away tons of E-Waste, which is true, we do. But they then go to claim they solve that by developing a system that can be upgradable for life. Seriously, here is their claim.What happened to the computer you had ten years ago?One day it got slow, the plastic faded, parts fell off, itbecame clogged with dust. Eventually it got replaced.Since most computers are designed to last only a couple ofyears, Americans throw away more than 9.4 million tons ofe-waste each year. We think the first step to a solution is todesign a computer that will be useful and stylish for a longtime, built with modular parts that can be upgraded foryears. We call this idea Designed for Life.Noble cause, but my issue with it is that this doesn't really solve the problem. So you've replaced your mainboard, CPU, SSD, and GPU after a few years after you've saved up some dough to get it done. What do you do with the old stuff? I mean I keep my old computers or sell them, I have thrown away a computer once in my life since it was fried through and through, but I have never tossed a working desktop computer in my entire life.What I am getting at is by replacing parts your still creating E-Waste, your just doing it with wood grain.And what really grinds my gears is the stupid pricing.I will price my system really quick for you.Case and PSU: 125 USD500GB SSD: 250 USDGTX 970: 350 USDi7-4790k: 300USD16GB DDR3 RAM: 100 USDmisc drives: 100 USDAIO Water cooler: 120USDUnless I forgot something, that adds to 1460 USD including tax and whatever shipping.They demand for an i5 (Skylake) with 8GB of RAM a GTX 1050 2GB, with a 250GB SSD and Windows 10.2000 USD.That's beyond an Apple markup. I mean that's 800-1000 USD worth in parts, for 2000 USD.And the picture of the unit looks pretty friggin cheap too. It looks like a whole load of parts lobbed together in a box, which I admit describes most computers, but this one looks like it was done almost on the fly.And the only system that comes close to mine, albeit with faster RAM and 2 generations + on the CPU (A slight bit above), costs 3000 USD. That's fricking insane.I hope I'm missing something here, but it really looks like a company has come and trumped Apple at their own game. Seriously.Either way, check it out for yourself, don't take my word as your opinion until you've examined for yourself, but this is my take.

author: PA0PBZ
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2017, 03:58:25 pm
content: Wireless graphics card?

author: Farley
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2017, 04:04:22 pm
content: QuoteI noticed that also. Is there another method of communicating with a graphics card without involving the card edge connector?

author: RGB255_0_0
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2017, 04:05:16 pm
content: Quote from: PA0PBZ on January 13, 2017, 03:58:25 pmThey'd obviously use a riser or ribbon cable, which are becoming common and with fewer issues.As for the case, I don't think it looks good with the way they're showing: wood with modern plastic/metallic frames of the monitor.But as a home theatre PC it would look pretty good if the furniture matches. And because they don't expect to sell too many, the price isn't too bad.

author: suicidaleggroll
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2017, 04:09:10 pm
content: Desktop computers arealreadymodular, they're not solving or even changing anything. If they would just market this as a wooden HTPC case and charge a few hundred dollars for it, they'd probably get a lot more traction.

author: ZeTeX
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2017, 04:14:11 pm
content: its just a bloody expensive PC in a wooden box, nothing special, and it is expensive as fuck for what you get.instead they should just sell the case itself for much, much cheaper, like 100-150$, and many will buy it for sure.

author: Ampera
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2017, 04:15:00 pm
content: Quote from: RGB255_0_0 on January 13, 2017, 04:05:16 pmNot sure how a 100% markup is not too bad.

author: Ampera
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2017, 04:18:07 pm
content: Quote from: PA0PBZ on January 13, 2017, 03:58:25 pmAt least they plugged the power in. :3Yea, definitely a riser. I guess it's a rear draft cooler, otherwise that's not a good orientation.And I am not saying it's not a somewhat okay looking machine, and it could fit as a media center computer.But that's just bullshit for twice the price of parts. And I mean I wouldn't spend more than 120$ on the case if I were to buy it as a proper ITX case.

author: RGB255_0_0
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2017, 04:22:58 pm
content: Quote from: TwoOfFive on January 13, 2017, 04:15:00 pmDepends how much the wood, the making and so on costs, and how many to sell before breaking even. If it's hand made expect there to be a premium. Subjectively you find it expensive, others may not. If you don't like it, why care?

author: corrado33
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2017, 04:38:48 pm
content: Quote from: TwoOfFive on January 13, 2017, 03:45:45 pmObvious GTX 1070 in the picture is obvious. Although I'm not sure where you're still buying a 970 for $350. If so you're getting ripped off.

author: Ampera
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2017, 04:41:14 pm
content: Quote from: RGB255_0_0 on January 13, 2017, 04:22:58 pmSimple Answer: I have nothing better to do and I thought that people would like to collectively bicker with me. You wanted an answer, didn't you?And yea, boutique crap like this can be expensive, but 1000 dollars markup on the base unit? I don't care who you are, but 1000 USD for a case I'd expect more than just a cheap wood box. It's a large markup than even Apple does. That's the fact I can't get over. I could see if they sold the base system for 1500 or even 1600 USD, that would be a bit more justified for what you get, but I mean the i7 version is literally a 1500 USD markup. That's money you could use to not only buy the materials to make that case, but to also buy a year of top dog membership for your local makerspace. (Mine charges 90$ a month, 60 for students).

author: Ampera
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2017, 04:42:39 pm
content: Quote from: corrado33 on January 13, 2017, 04:38:48 pmbecause I'm not? I bought the 970 when the 970 was worth 350 USD. The money I spent on my system in today's market could rip even the best system there a new one.

author: Ducttape
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2017, 04:55:18 pm
content: I think Poplar Science did an article on this.

author: Ampera
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2017, 04:59:49 pm
content: Quote from: Ducttape on January 13, 2017, 04:55:18 pmI wouldn't know, I don't read them.

author: gnif
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 13, 2017, 05:06:27 pm
content: Wow, I am glad those blue USB cables are long enough to reach well and truly outside the opposite corner of the box. What a joke.What is sad is that in years gone by, people would have laughed that that and stated they could knock the box up in their workshop for just a few $ worth of wood and a few hours of time.

author: Ducttape
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2017, 05:10:31 pm
content: Quote from: TwoOfFive on January 13, 2017, 04:59:49 pmIf you had written "I woodn't know, I don't read them." then I'd know you'd gotten my joke. It is hard to spot, I'll admit.

author: RGB255_0_0
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2017, 05:22:36 pm
content: Quote from: TwoOfFive on January 13, 2017, 04:41:14 pmAt the volume they would be selling at, yes, that mark up is reasonable. Even with a $500 mark up, how many do you think they'd sell? Would have to be more than double to equalise the difference.This is a specific case (sorry), but when it comes to boutique products, from chocolate to clothing, there will be "extortionate" pricing models. But when it comes to this product there will be so few sold that recouping investment, paying for wood that has to be almost perfect and the labour cost will mean that it's going to be expensive.Having said that, this product could well last for hundreds of years if looked after, so you'd never have to buy another ever again.

author: Ampera
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2017, 05:30:42 pm
content: Quote from: RGB255_0_0 on January 13, 2017, 05:22:36 pmWhat the issue is though, is that there is no reason to spend more money on it. It doesn't bring anything to the table.And the box could last hundreds of years, but we haven't had semiconducting electronics long enough to say hundreds of years. And Moore's Law is still riding true to this day. You can buy it, use it for 30 years, but after 4-6 of those years, your computer will be obsolete and not able to do modern tasks. That is the key flaw in their thinking. You will have to upgrade, and they admit that, but what they ignore is that when you upgrade, you have old parts you will still have to throw away.My Socket 3 486 machine has lasted 20+ years, and it's fun to use, but it could barely even parse even XviD video at a reasonable resolution, thus putting it WELL out of the reach of something like YouTube. Even my AMD A4 computer. Dual core, it ran alright for me before, but now I can't do anything but simple tasks on two flimsy cores.This computer is expensive to the point where making your own system and case will be around a thousand dollars cheaper, and it doesn't solve, nor go anywhere near solving the issue it says it solves.Quote from: Ducttape on January 13, 2017, 05:10:31 pmHaaaaa. Now I see what you did there.

author: GreyWoolfe
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 13, 2017, 10:30:47 pm
content: Quote from: Ducttape on Today at 04:10:31 AMQuote from: TwoOfFive on Today at 03:59:49 AMQuote from: Ducttape on Today at 03:55:18 AMI think Poplar Science did an article on this.I wouldn't know, I don't read them.If you had written "I woodn't know, I don't read them." then I'd know you'd gotten my joke. It is hard to spot, I'll admit.Haaaaa. Now I see what you did there.Well, I'll be a son of a beech, I missed it at first, just got it.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 14, 2017, 12:25:25 am
content: Quote from: TwoOfFive on January 13, 2017, 03:45:45 pmSo, in other words, a case.

author: eugenenine
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2017, 01:46:09 am
content: Quote from: TwoOfFive on January 13, 2017, 03:45:45 pmI put a new backlight tube (laptop) in it a couple years ago and keep using it.

author: timb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2017, 01:49:05 am
content: Quote from: Ducttape on January 13, 2017, 04:55:18 pmI didn't reed it either.(U guise c wat I did thar?!)

author: imidis
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2017, 01:58:51 am
content: I just.... Ummm yeah...

author: Mark
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2017, 09:44:03 am
content: No one has noticed, no puns needed!Gary UnderwoodCEOTy UnderwoodDesignerDale WoodardEngineer

author: imidis
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2017, 12:26:52 pm
content: I had to.....https://youtu.be/d3ci2tsxk_A

author: Ampera
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2017, 01:11:51 pm
content: Quote from: Mark on January 14, 2017, 09:44:03 amHooooooly shit. That is the best thing I have ever seen.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 14, 2017, 01:32:21 pm
content: Quote from: imidis on January 14, 2017, 12:26:52 pmHonest opinion. That video doesn't contain anything that would not fit in 5-8 minutes. You should not repeat the same rambling 10 times in the row.

author: imidis
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2017, 01:44:07 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on January 14, 2017, 01:32:21 pmFair observation. Have not done that style before. Will keep that in mind if I do another one of that type.On topic, with the wood names, if it wasn't january I would think this was a joke. =/

author: gnif
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 14, 2017, 04:37:43 pm
content: Quote from: imidis on January 14, 2017, 12:26:52 pmWow, a few hours literally and this video is now private? What was it?

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2017, 02:14:13 am
content: Quote from: RGB255_0_0 on January 13, 2017, 04:22:58 pmSpeaking as someone who's wallet knows to its cost, that looks like expensive timber. However, the joints look like they were made by a monkey with no conception of what carpentry is about. Further, that's solid timber and it doesn't look like the grain direction is particularly well controlled - it's clear from some of those photos that at least some of the parts are flat sawn. Apply a bit of heat (like 200W odd dissipation inside the case) and watch that warp and twist as it dries out. It's the kind of product that calls for very careful timber selection (like using quartersawn timber in some, possibly all, places) and if you want pretty too, that's going to cost. If I was making this I'd use engineered timber (e.g. birch plywood) and veneer it to get the desired finish - it would still not be cheap.Also, wood case with no metal shielding inside it? I wonder what an EMC compliance report on that would look like?

author: imidis
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2017, 02:43:06 am
content: Quote from: gnif on January 14, 2017, 04:37:43 pmIt was just way too long, I don't think I could edit enough out of it so I pulled it. But basic rundown (for base model) $620 off the shelf computer components and $1379 for a wooden box!

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2017, 03:18:34 am
content: This hill has killed many already. I remember a computer I purchased in the late eighties or early nineties that was "obsolescence proof". The CPU (I think this was 386 vintage) came in a little module that plugged in, to allow replacement with newer/faster CPUs as they were released. Of course as the newer CPUs were developed they used different voltages and sockets and had different cooling requirements. For an earlier example look at the Ohio Scientific products which existed through the 70s into the early 80s. Nice looking wood case. Modular design. Totally unable to keep up with the future.And then for the icing on the cake. Look at any movie made 15 or more years ago. Forget the actors and the plot and look at the costumes and set designs. The cabinets, finishes and design concepts that were the height of style then are barely palatable today. So even if technological obsolescence is avoided, the significant other of the future will not allow that ugly thing in the house.

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2017, 04:05:19 am
content: Not to mention the EMC nightmare!Tim

author: janekm
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 15, 2017, 05:40:34 am
content: Quote from: TwoOfFive on January 13, 2017, 04:41:14 pm100% is not at all an unusually high markup in most industries. The PC industry is quite special in that component pricing has been well known to consumers, and modularity has driven down the margin of most vendors. Apple is pretty much the only company left with healthy margins since they don't play in the same sand-box.This company isn't likely to sell a whole lot of units of this PC since it's ultimately the same old PC in a (to some eyes) slightly nicer box. So it doesn't make any sense to compare their margin to Apple's, they are a boutique business. And their markup is tiny compared to most boutique businesses. You'd get a shock comparing the price of silver to the price of a boutique silver ringThe "upgradeability" argument is funny since it's literally just as upgradeable if not less than every grey-box PC

author: Ampera
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2017, 12:27:37 pm
content: Lol, anybody remember E-Machines?

author: jh15
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 16, 2017, 07:01:11 am
content: I'll have to test my Ohio Scientific c4p I got in 1978 or so. It worked a year or so ago.Still looks good to me, more like metal test equipment case. I did not get the wood sides.Better EMI shielding than the woody we've been discussing.

author: Red Squirrel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 16, 2017, 06:44:00 pm
content: Neat, would make a fun project. Not something I'd buy though but could be fun to make.

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 19, 2017, 05:41:23 pm
content: Quote from: RGB255_0_0 on January 13, 2017, 05:22:36 pmLate to this party and while I largely agree with you, the problem here is that they are marking up the cost of everything they are delivering, despite the fact that the only thing they are actually making is the case, and their only value-add is assembling it. That's what makes the price unreasonable. If you look at the cost of a bespoke wooden enclosure and the cost of design/specification/assembly services, they are out in left field on their pricing. I'm certainly firmly in favor of people charging what the market will bear for their work - and if people will pay $3k for these machines, then they should absolutely charge that, but I personally think their whole premise is flawed. They are trying to sell themselves as something they are not. The pitch of being a modular computer that prevents e-waste is an outright lie. I don't believe for a second these folks believe any of the bullshit they've written about preventing e-waste. I don't even believe they believe they are a boutique computer manufacturer. I think they realize they're just a case manufacturer like so many others, but they are attempting to sell their cases in a novel way, and by selling the whole system, they can capture markups on the case as well as the hardware, and essentially sell their cases for $1,000 instead of $150.My .02.