What's a good printer for minimal usage ? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: MathWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2023, 07:46:06 am
content: Once and I while I want to print something, just B/W text I guess, but I haven't had a working printer in years.Does anyone make a cheap one, that won't clog up, or anything else bad, like need new ink every time, if you hardly ever use it ?

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2023, 07:58:43 am
content: If you only print once in a while it is best to buy a laser printer.A couple of years back I bought a MFP M182n, which does color, after ditching several inkjet printers due to the cartridges going bad. Only print a couple times per year and the laser one does not seem to have problems with this.You can find cheaper ones that only do black and white and don't have a scanner bed to suit your needs.

author: MathWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2023, 08:24:44 am
content: They don't cost that much anyone, but just looking at some pictures, I'd want a small one fore sure. I haven't owned a toaster in years, I wonder if they make a printer that doubles as a toaster.

author: Electro Detective
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2023, 08:33:00 am
content: Quote from: pcprogrammer on February 02, 2023, 07:58:43 amThe jet printer companies have been rolling consumers like this for 20+ years, myself included.They literally have a license to 'print' money from not advising connedsumers about the 'drying out' factor on many/all printers,and us 'print every so often..' bunnies either keep buying new printers and litter nature strips with the stuffed ones,and or go the 'DIY ink refill' -crossed fingers and legs- route.That's assuming most battling users survive the 'Quick Setup' and software install procedure,much less the countless dramas that come later, once the 'works great!' honeymoon period is over."..cheaper ones that only do black and white and don't have a scanner bed.."is where I'm at but have not bothered yetI would much rather save on the expense and headbanging of 'what to buy' and cartridge 'bang for buck'decisions for now,and USB stick the documents and picture/photos, and spend the same money (or less) in a 12 month period,by rocking up to Officeworks or a local printer, and let the everyday practicing pro staff sort it outI won't even do DIY printing there either to save cents, as my time is important too I think..and don't want to drop the effort, just to wait in the queue to complain to counter staffthat the DIY printers are knackered,as they always seem to be with punters bitching and or walking out in disgust.fwiw I go during quiet times when the staff are not stressed and always do a great job for mei.e. who wants to trade this affordable no brainer service, to root around with a SOHO printerthat NEVER works when you just need ONE page asapNo thanks..

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2023, 09:13:51 am
content: B/W laser is cheap, reliable and doesn't dry or clog up because the toner is just a powder in a plastic cartridge.For some popular brands and models even 3rd party cartridges are available, which vary from very cheap and failing after a few dozen pages to only slightly more expensive and lasting for a few years of light use.

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2023, 09:22:49 am
content: Quote from: Electro Detective on February 02, 2023, 08:33:00 amSure if that works for you, it is a good solution.Here out in the sticks it is not practical and would become very expensive and time consuming having to drive >20Km to find a service to do the printing for me.

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2023, 09:26:56 am
content: Quote from: MathWizard on February 02, 2023, 08:24:44 amThere is already a heating element, so who knowsHave a tray for your bread slices, use edible toner and you can print the headlines on your toast. You know, just like that thing that can print on your coffee.https://www.eevblog.com/forum/cooking/evebot-coffee-printer/

author: AndyBeez
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2023, 10:38:19 am
content: I agree with everyone else; get a cheapo laser printer. It may seem initially expensive, but given how brand new and full ink cartridges mysteriously go empty after six months - even in winter - you'll make your money back after 18 months. A bargain basement HP is around $100, maybe cheaper at clearance prices? Printer ink is just a global conspiracy that makes e-waste and ocean plastic.

author: Oldtestgear
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2023, 10:41:32 am
content: A laser printer is definitely the better option for occasional printing. I bought a broken HP Laserjet 1320 about 12 years ago for 99p on eBay. Had to drive 10 miles to collect & then spent about an hour fixing it.The biggest problem with it is toner cartidges -- some do start to leak after years of occasional use but decent remanufactured cartridges are cheap enough. I have just cleaned it properly for the first time in years & it is still my "go to" printer. Hard to beat this for value for money.I recently obtained an HP colour laser from a skip (literally) that had been binned because it regularly locked up & refused to print. Turns out there was a firmware update issued by HP for this issue. New cartridges & firmware update & I now have colour as well. Total cost? £55 for cartriges & an hour of my time. I was with my son at the time & he was suitably embarrassed by me climbing into the skip to retrieve it. The owner was a bit bemused but happy not to have to hide it before the skip was collected.Sometimes these things HAVE to be done.Phil

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2023, 11:06:15 am
content: If you don't print often, then don't bother with a printer. Go to a public library and use the printer there.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2023, 11:11:09 am
content: Quote from: MathWizard on February 02, 2023, 07:46:06 amGet a laserprinter. Inkjet is horrible. I have good experiences with the HP printers for business use. Do yourself a favour and get one with a network (and/or Wifi) interface. That makes it much easier to place it somewhere far from your PC AND use it with other computers.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2023, 11:15:29 am
content: I've got 4 year old Brother Colour Laser (HL-3140CW). It works perfectly and is still running on the factory supplied toner. Print quality for mono is excellent, and while colour is not photo-quality, it's not bad at all! My biggest complaint is the build quality is very optimised, a lot of plastic parts, for instance the lifting arm for the toner door is all plastic, as are all the mountings. But for occasional use that's probably fine.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2023, 11:19:01 am
content: Quote from: Zero999 on February 02, 2023, 11:06:15 amSame for if you infrequently buy photo prints. You can get miles better photo print quality ordered directly to your door, or at the supermarket at one of those print machines, and just use a colour laser for all the other jobs. Unless you print hundreds a month, buying an inkjet only for photo quality prints is a huge false economy.

author: Miyuki
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2023, 12:53:53 pm
content: Laser printers are best for most tasks except photo quality.And for minimal usage what kills it the most time is Microsoft and the next version of Windows.It is a bigger and bigger problem to run some older printers under 10 with every update and straight impossible under 11. But the printer itself is still going strong. Same with old HP LaserJet and Konica Minolta.So if you buy a printer that works under Windows 11 and print just a few pages a year. It will probably work until the next major version.

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2023, 01:06:51 pm
content: nth-ing laser.I had an inkjet for a long time, a hand-me-down which was actually rather nice for what it was: good color prints, photo quality available, doesn't whinge about empty cartridges, no DRM. (Canon Pixma i6000D I think it was.) But it did waste quite a lot of ink, at the rate I used it (little).Later I got a laser, Brother DCP-L2540DW, which is fine. Probably still be a while before I need a cart (it's still on the "free" half-filled or whatever toner cartridge). Scanner is reasonable and in color, too. Oddities: it's more a copier than a scanner? It's weird, it has a document feeder but only for copying, even though, it, y'know, literally scans a sheet into memory to make the copy?... I don't know that I'd recommend this model specifically, but the brand is fine; it's adequately confirmed to me what others have said about Brother printers.Tim

author: Messtechniker
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2023, 01:27:45 pm
content: Make a PDF file and go to the next copy shop.But keep in mind that your file will remain in the printers memory.Or ask a friend.It won't get any cheaper than that in your case.

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2023, 01:29:09 pm
content: Sometimes latency is an issue too, worth the minor cost.Quote from: Miyuki on February 02, 2023, 12:53:53 pmI read this as "more cheap printers for those who aren't Windows addicts"

author: jonpaul
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2023, 01:59:18 pm
content: 2015 ..2018 model. Have 4 of these!HP Laserjet M12W WiFi/USB,Low cost, fast great prints low cost cartagesJon

author: MT
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2023, 02:32:27 pm
content: Quote from: MathWizard on February 02, 2023, 07:46:06 amA cheap Laser.

author: rdl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2023, 03:52:30 pm
content: One really nice option to look for (though it may not be available on smaller models) is duplex printing.I have a Brother HL5250DN that's like 15 years old and has always worked fine. The original cartridge lasted about a decade. It does not need to be attached to a PC, it plugs directly into the network. I think that's pretty common these days though. Brother makes pretty good printers.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2023, 04:22:22 pm
content: QuoteGot the same model,all be it a bit older than 4 and its still running on the original everything apart from paper and its certainly worked out cheaper than an inkjet and produces better results for the occasional printing i do.However it has developed a fault,if left powered up,but turned off by the front button it wont restart until its hard power cycled,not a major issue as i keep it turned off at the wall,but maybe an issue for some.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2023, 04:26:44 pm
content: Definitely go with a laser printer. I wanted color so I got a HP M254DW a few years ago and have been very happy with it, monochrome lasers are cheaper. The M254 does surprisingly good color photo prints, it's the first laser printer I've had that I've found suitable for that.Watch out though, some of the new HP models require you to subscribe to toner and are locked to only work with OEM toner/ink. Also some printers have stripped down hardware and do most of the work in the driver which only works on Windows, personally I would try to avoid these even if I didn't want to print from other operating systems. A good way to tell is the driver will be over 100MB to download.Nothing beats the convenience of having a printer right in your own home, even if you don't print very often.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2023, 04:34:21 pm
content: Quote from: MathWizard on February 02, 2023, 07:46:06 amCheap, very flexible (colour, transparency, size), guaranteed to work, and meets that spec: just take the document on a USB stick to your nearest print shop.

author: MarkS
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 02, 2023, 04:50:20 pm
content: I have this and I love it. It's relatively cheap, the toner lasts forever and the replacement toner is reasonable. They also have a model with wireless connectivity for $30 USD more.Brother HL-L2300D (Amazon link)

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2023, 05:49:28 pm
content: Quote from: MarkS on February 02, 2023, 04:52:43 pmYou don't have to crank up your post count any more for the supporters loungeIt is possible to remove or just not post your post if it is not what you intended.

author: MarkS
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 02, 2023, 05:55:04 pm
content: Quote from: pcprogrammer onTodayat 02:49:28 amI'd rather complain!

author: pqass
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2023, 06:46:48 pm
content: I have a Brother DCP-7065DN (mono laser+flat bed scanner) going on 10 years now (since discontinued). I'm on my third toner even! It's very economical given that I don't print much. Handy when you want a quick copy and even can do PCB layouts (toner transfer on dollar-store sticky cupboard liner paper).It's Ethernet connected over LPD/IPP and fully works with Linux; including the scanner. Any colour prints are outsourced to Walmart.

author: pqass
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2023, 06:59:01 pm
content: Quote from: bigfoot22 on February 02, 2023, 06:48:50 pmHmm...If I recall, I had to install the driver to use the scanner. Then I use Linux XSane or Simple Scan apps.Fax functionality may be a different beast.My driver is still available for download:https://support.brother.com/g/b/downloadtop.aspx?c=ca&lang=en&prod=dcp7065dn_all

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2023, 07:04:57 pm
content: As someone who fundamentally prefers inkjets for a number of reasons, I completely concur with everyone’s recommendation to get a small laser printer. Laser printers simply don’t care whether they’ve been idle for an hour or a month. Toner cartridges (or specifically, the imaging drum and rubber blades inside) don’t start to go bad until they’re many years old.To avoid driver obsolescence, get a printer that supports PCL or PostScript (or PostScript clones, like Brother and HP provide). This will rule out the smallest models, but you don’t have to go particularly high end to get PCL or PS support. Almost every OS under the sun supports one or both of those protocols, so you’ll always have, at bare minimum, the basic ability to print.Scanning is a different matter. Unfortunately, it’s only in recent times that any kinds of generic scanning protocols have emerged, and they’re not very widespread yet.If you rarely scan, use a good scanning app on your phone. If you do scan a lot, consider getting a standalone document scanner instead. They’re better than anything in low-end multifunction printers.

author: shapirus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2023, 07:07:10 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on February 02, 2023, 11:19:01 amIt depends. Some printers designed specifically to print photos, like Epson L805 that I use, have superb print quality provided that high quality photo paper is used. However, once you forget to print at least a small page (that contains all the six ink colors) every couple of days, the print headwillclog up when you least expect it. I had to set up a calendar reminder to print a page every other day.Unless printing photos is required, a (color or b/w) laser printer is a no-brainer. However, there comes another issue: is there a good laser printer these days at all? One that would not require to register an account and/or purchase a subscription before allowing you to print, that will print without regular firmware updates, that will not break the next day after warranty period ends (or the next day after purchase), ideally that will also be good to print PCBs for the toner transfer method.After having done some research I'm afraid it's not an easy task, and that is even before the prices are considered.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2023, 07:14:34 pm
content: Quote from: shapirus on February 02, 2023, 07:07:10 pmFor what it’s worth, Canon inkjets are much more tolerant of sitting idle without clogging. I gave up on Epson after having two of them clog irreparably despite being used at least once a week. I switched back to Canon in 2003, and none of those ever suffered a permanent clog. My current Canon printer, whose printhead has finally started to fail (ink colors contaminate each other), still isn’t clogged, and it has been in use since early 2008!!

author: shapirus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2023, 07:18:34 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on February 02, 2023, 07:14:34 pmThere are many variables. Printer model, ink manufacturer, air temperature and humidity, moon phase, whatever. In other words, a consensus recommendation is not to get an ink jet printer, unless you have a specific reason to do so.

author: jmelson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2023, 02:24:31 am
content: Yes, buy a used HP laser printer on eBay. You can usually get one for around $75 including delivery. Most of them will last for many years at low volume printing.Jon

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2023, 09:28:52 am
content: Quote from: bigfoot22 on February 02, 2023, 07:21:23 pmNowadays, most midrange and higher inkjets use pigment inks that are both lightfast and resist water to some extent. (In pro photo printers, there’s often the choice of dye or pigment inks: dye for maximum gamut, pigment for lightfastness.)It’s sad that most people’s experience with inkjets is with entry-level models. Higher end models are fast, produce great output, and don’t suffer from fading or smearing.Lasers have their advantages for sure. But I think people sometimes forget that they have downsides, too: poorer rendition of large areas of high density, inferior color dithering in general, annoying shine on the deposited toner, higher power consumption, and increased indoor air pollution.As for print costs: low end lasers long ago caught up to inkjet. In particular, small color lasers are extremely expensive to operate. Simultaneously, the “ink tank” inkjets that use bottled bulk ink are extremely cheap to operate. But for very infrequent use, laser’s ability to go long periods without use is a decisive advantage.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2023, 09:33:13 am
content: Quote from: jmelson on February 03, 2023, 02:24:31 am$75?You can get them for free in classified ads. People are constantly giving away laser printers: the toner runs out, and then they see that a new toner cartridge is $80 and instead choose to buy a new $100 laser (whose $50 cartridges only last for a few hundred pages) and give away the old printer whose $80 toner will last for 5000 pages…Note to self: finally get around to ordering a new toner cartridge for my old HP laser. (It still has toner left, but the cartridge is old and produces lousy output, due to a worn out drum and doctor blades.)But I totally agree that an old HP laser will last forever in home use.

author: beanflying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2023, 09:39:36 am
content: Interesting. I 'still' need to buy a replacement printer from this 18 month old topichttps://www.eevblog.com/forum/general-computing/laser-or-good-quality-inkjet-printer-in-2021/msg3571234/#msg3571234I have been mooching printer time occasionally and not owning one the local library is 100m away if I am desperate. Still sort looking for the flatbed Scanner/Laser in a small form factor (so a miracle) and the more I see of modern Inkjets being a complete race to the bottom to sell consumables I can't see my usage suits spending good $ on another mid level inkjet again.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2023, 09:45:08 am
content: Quote from: shapirus on February 02, 2023, 07:18:34 pmI wouldn’t call it “consensus”, especially with the ink tank inkjets whose page costs are spectacularly low.It used to be that the general recommendation was “inkjet for low volume, laser for high volume”. Now it’s kinda the opposite: “laser for low volume/sporadic, inkjet for frequent, high volume”.There’s actually been, over the past few years, some movement of inkjet into the large office printer market. Some models have full A3-width printheads that print at enormous speeds, with dirt-cheap ink. HP and Canon have discontinued theirs, but Epson is about to ship some new models next month, with page-wide heads capable of 60 pages per minute.

author: Muttley Snickers
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 03, 2023, 09:58:30 am
content: My blood brother is a complete fuckwit but my inkjet Brother is, and always has been my best and most reliable friend. I really do love my Brother MFC790CW.

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2023, 10:56:55 am
content: Quote from: tooki on February 03, 2023, 09:45:08 amFunny that you mention this. Some 20 years ago I wrote a dedicated driver for, at the time, Group1 Software, to output IJPDS intended for big inkjet printers with full width heads. Can't find any pictures and don't recall the name of the manufacturer. The web shows Kodak as the developer of the IJPDS format and it might well be that it was also them who made the printers. Had to make a trip to a factory in Dayton Ohio to get more information about the systems and after finishing the driver went for testing to some place in Switzerland where they had one of these printers. Filled up a big room these things and took big rolls of paper. But they where fast. Full speed about 2000 pages per minute if I recall correclty.

author: jmelson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2023, 05:33:56 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on February 03, 2023, 09:33:13 amWell, I needed Ethernet + PostScript and wanted to make sure I got the right options. The eBay seller really screwed this up TWICE, no Ethernet!I finally got a refund and bought from a different seller, and it is working fine.QuoteYes, I kept my old LaserJet 5M running for about 15 years but always had to put new wiper blades in the NOS cartridges I got. I finally had to put the poor beast out to pasture as one of the paper feed rollers turned to complete goo, and no replacement was available. Now I have a M401dne, and it prints WAAAY faster and does duplex, and can also print some complex documents the old one choked on.Jon

author: westfw
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2023, 12:34:52 am
content: QuoteYeah; I picked up two free HP PCL4 laser printers (with extra cartridges) off of FreeCycle (I guess from some sort of small office whose owner was retiring), but only one had the needed USB to mini-centronics parallel port cord (which would be relatively difficult and expensive to replace), and setting up drivers for W10 was ... less than trivial (and could stop working with any update, I guess.)Surely someone has written Raspberry Pi (or equivalent) printer emulation SW? (Looks like a networked postscipt printer, runs GhostScript, outputs to any number of ancient printers that "modern" Operating Systems don't want to support.)

author: alm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2023, 08:42:28 pm
content: Quote from: westfw on February 04, 2023, 12:34:52 amSure, the standard Linux printing systemCupsdoes this pretty much by default if the printer is configured.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2023, 04:02:17 am
content: drivers? no idea what voodoo brother or linux uses but i aint installed any drivers,just pointed the printer at the network and job done

author: westfw
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2023, 07:18:23 am
content: QuoteNot going to work with pre-networked printers, now is it?

author: paulca
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2023, 10:29:28 am
content: Quote from: pcprogrammer on February 02, 2023, 07:58:43 amI concur. Inkjets don't typically like being sat up, usually you have bad prints and need to expend half a cartridge running the cleaning cycle. The cartridges have actual hardware obsolescence (claiming the ink has a shelf life). So after a year, maybe 2, "computer says no".Cheap lasers are available.A second factor to remember with printers, is setup, config and drivers. Finding the cables, drivers etc. For this reason, if you can afford the extra £80-100 buy a networked printer. These are designed for offices and usually install automatically in the background on any PC on the network. I don't think I ever had to setup my Brother, I configured it's Wifi and it just appeared fully ready to go. The only time it has ever failed to fire up (from deep sleep) and print within 3 minutes was the times the cat has pushed the front panel release... it's a thing she likes to do.

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2023, 11:24:21 am
content: I agree that a cheap laser is the way to go for occasional use. My (I guess old now) Dell C1760nw colour printer has quietly sat there, attached to the router, for the past 10 years at least, waking up and printing whenever required, it hasn't skipped a beat. Photo quality actually isn't at all bad for casual use, putting in some smooth surface (high clay content) laser photo paper makes a huge difference.One tip, choose one that has readily available aftermarket toner cartridges. Cheap laser printers, like cheap inkjets aim to make money back on consumables. So far I've got through the original starter cartridges, a fresh set of official Dell starter cartridges, purchased cheaply on ebay, and am now on a set of remanufactured high capacity aftermarket cartridges, with no loss of print quality. A set of genuine high capacity Dell cartridges would have cost more than the printer, effectively writing it off. The aftermarket ones are very economical (and you hardly ever need to change them with low volume printing anyway).

author: kaz911
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2023, 11:57:02 am
content: my favourites are Brother Laser MFC's. Silent when not running and drivers are not full of junk (just a little bit of junk not a massive pile of sh*t like HP)

author: paulca
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2023, 03:25:21 pm
content: Good point on checking the cost of consumables. I think I checked the brother cartridges existed in popular 3rd party form for £100 a full set of 4. The official ones are only about 150 anyway.Not that that appears to be a concern. My daughter has been printing full block colour drawings on it mostly what its been used for and it still reports 100% on all toners. It's a year old.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2023, 04:00:13 pm
content: Quote from: paulca on February 05, 2023, 10:29:28 amI just think it’s important to remind people that the toner for cheap laser printers is very, very, very expensive, frequently more expensive than inkjet ink. So while they’re great for people who truly print next to nothing, with large gaps of time between print jobs, it only takes a few hundred pages of printouts to make it cheaper, long term, to get an ink tank inkjet. Their ink is so cheap that even if you waste fully half of it on head cleaning, you’vestillspent practically nothing on ink.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2023, 04:33:40 pm
content: Quote from: kaz911 on February 05, 2023, 11:57:02 amThe trick with HP printers is to scroll down and download the drivers only. Their software is a pile of junk indeed.Quote from: tooki on February 05, 2023, 04:00:13 pmI doubt that. I always buy the largest B&W toner cartridge that fits the printer and it takes me years before it is empty. In my experience an inkjet just doesn't work for incidental printing. Been there, done that. Heads get clogged and/or ink dries out. On top of that, the print quality just isn't as sharp as you get from a laser printer. BTW I always buy original cartridges. I don't want to mess around with crap. I can easely waste more time than the toner cartridge is worth.

author: kaz911
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2023, 05:03:57 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on February 05, 2023, 04:33:40 pmyes but with the basic HP driver - you don't get scanner drivers or SW. With Brother you get it all and it is not full of crap - and it just works.I have a very cheap Brother MFC in our vacation home - but that is an inkjet. But I solved the issues with inks drying - by keeping it turned off - and turning it on once a week as it goes through a cleaning cycle when turned on. So at least it has worked until now.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2023, 05:04:41 pm
content: QuoteWot he said. A replacement genuine cartridge works for my printer out at £0.027 a page,even if a tank inkjet works out cheaper per page for the ink you need to factor in the 20 new printers id also need to buy to produce the same amount of print outs in the same sort of timescale

author: paulca
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2023, 05:08:03 pm
content: At least at the level I bought (£230 Full Colour laser). The toners are 5,000 pages and the black 10,000.Unlike inkjets where a FULL cartridge is good for about 200-300 pages if you are lucky. The 1/4 full "intro" cartridge in the printer when you buy it is good for sod all too.Lexmark are prime examples, the printer + intro ink is £35. The full set of cartridges is £135.The thing is... aim just high enough to be buying "SOHO Office printers". That market WILL NOT and DO NOT accept that inkjet ink subsription non-sense. They just won't. Not when it has to print day in, day out without breaking down, ideally.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2023, 05:33:55 pm
content: Quote from: kaz911 on February 05, 2023, 05:03:57 pmJust get a seperate scanner. Works much better. Having a scanner + printer is nice if you need a copy machine. Scanners are so cheap it just isn't worth bothering with the software. I'm using Linux where scanners & printers work right out of the box anyway.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2023, 05:46:50 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on February 05, 2023, 04:33:40 pmYou doubt that laser could be more expensive than inkjet? Don’t be so sure! The toner cartridges for the cheapest black and white lasers are very expensive. For example, for HP’s entry level models, that’s $45 for just 950 pages. There are many cartridge inkjets with ink cheaper than that (not entry level, but not expensive, either), and ink tank printers are orders of magnitude cheaper to run.With color it gets worse: $50 for 700 pages for HP’s entry level. Per color.(And just to make sure you can’t call me out: I am NOT saying that entry level lasers cost more to run than ALL inkjet printers. That is not true, some inkjets use crazy expensive ink. But it’s also incorrect to think that ALL laser printers are cheaper to run than inkjets!)Now look at, say, a $400 color multifunction. With laser (looking at a Xerox for example), high capacity toner is $70 per color, for 2500 pages (3000 for black). For $400, you get a nicely equipped Epson ink tank inkjet that uses ink that costs $10 per bottle, and lasts for 4500 pages black, 7500 pages color.When I said you could waste HALF the ink on head cleaning and still come out cheaper, I wasn’t exaggerating even a tiny bit. Heck, you could waste 90% of the ink on cleaning and it would still be less than half the price per page than the entry level laser!But you don’t even need to choose an ink tank to find inkjets that are cheaper to run than the basic lasers. You could also look at, say, a $250 HP cartridge printer, and discover that the high-capacity cartridges are $35 for 1600 pages (color) and $60 for 3000 pages (black).I’m in the market for a new printer, so I’ve been checking things out, and it’s absolutely shocking how expensive the supplies for cheap lasers are.But as I said alreadymore than once: for someone who prints very little, and very sporadically, that can still be the right choice, since you won’t waste toner on head cleaning.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2023, 06:06:30 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on February 05, 2023, 04:00:13 pmMaybe you can point to an example but I haven't encountered that. The cartridges are good for hundreds or even thousands of pages and aftermarket cartridges that work just fine are available for every laser printer I've ever had. If you want OEM, they can usually be found on ebay from people/companies that have leftover cartridges from a printer they no longer have for one reason or another. My current printer is still on the original starter cartridges that came in it when I bought it at least 4 years ago, it's been complaining for a couple of years that one is critically low but it keeps printing just fine.I'm amazed you have had such good luck with inkjets. I lived with them for years and have come to absolutely hate them. The only thing I can think of where an inkjet is marginally superior is color photos and that's only if you use special expensive photo paper. My laser printer does a nice job with photos on ordinary paper, they don't fade or smudge, they don't run if they get damp and they're good enough that in a framed 6x4" you'd never notice it wasn't from a photo lab without picking it up and inspecting it closely. Every inkjet I owned was clogged practically every time I went to use it. I'd buy a set of expensive new cartridges, print a few pages and then next time I went to use it there would be missing lines. Cleaning cycle after cleaning cycle wasting more of my expensive ink than got on the paper, older printouts exposed to humidity would get blurry and fade over time, a droplet of sweat on a page makes a big smear. Junk. I don't want an inkjet even if it's free, I'm totally over them.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2023, 06:16:21 pm
content: Quote from: paulca on February 05, 2023, 05:08:03 pmWhat model, if I may ask?And what does that toner cost? As I said in another reply, I’ve been shopping around for a new printer, and color laser supplies have shocked me with how expensive they are.For example, for a $500 color laser multifunction from HP, the XL toner is $200 per color, for 6000 pages ($160 for 7500pp black). So yeah, the yield is high, but the cost is enormous. For $500 you get an ink tank inkjet with ink that costs literally $15 per color for that yield.Quote from: paulca on February 05, 2023, 05:08:03 pmOnly on the very cheapest entry level printers. Spend a bit more up front and the cartridge sizes go up (while the cartridge prices don’t).And lasers are just as bad about including tiny “starter” cartridges. (In fact, they may be worse.)Quote from: paulca on February 05, 2023, 05:08:03 pmLexmark exited the inkjet market a full decade ago. Completely irrelevant.And even if it weren’t: how’s that any better than a $500 laser printer where the full set of toner costs $850? (I’d argue it’s even worse, since at least with the $50 inkjet you’ve spent practically nothing up front.)Quote from: paulca on February 05, 2023, 05:08:03 pmThe ink and toner subscriptions apparently make the economic sense in some situations, especially photo printing. Not that subscriptions and robustness have anything whatsoever to do with each other.But regardless, you can’t expect robustness from a $50 inkjet or a $100 laser. You can, however, expect it from a $500 inkjet, and those printers deliver it, while giving you print costs that even the most expensive laser printers (which the very cheapest page costs) can’t even dream of.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2023, 06:18:41 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on February 05, 2023, 05:46:50 pmWait, $45 for almost 1,000 pages is your example of "very expensive"?That's dirt cheap, 1,000 pages is *years* of printing for me so $50 is absolutely negligible, I was spending that much on inkjet cartridges that I was lucky to get 30 pages out of before they dried up. Even the color cost is not that bad, you only use it when you print in color and you can replace them individually, my black cartridge has been saying it's empty for a couple years now and my color cartridges are 50, 50 and 40% currently. I just checked and the total on this printer is 780 pages since I bought it 4-5 years ago. Maybe if you print color photosin high volume a tank inkjet could be cheaper, but I only know one person that prints a lot due to his and his wife's home business and he went through multiple big inkjets and went back to laser once he was no longer printing DVD jackets for a friend's company. I remember he used to have to tear it all apart to get to the waste ink sponge to replace that because it would get saturated and start dripping ink on the shelf.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2023, 06:25:31 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on February 05, 2023, 05:46:50 pmI think you forgot to add a 0 in there. I recently paid 121 euro for an original cartridge for my HP printer. HP says it is good for 6300 pages but from experience I know it is more like 7000 pages or more. That is way cheaper than your 4.5 cents per page. The aftermarket cartridges with even higher printing capacity cost half of the original HP cartridge.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2023, 06:25:58 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on February 05, 2023, 06:06:30 pmGo look at the printer manufacturers right now and look. I’m not making it up, I’m not exaggerating.In the reply above, the $500 HP I’m referring to is the M479dw, whose set of toner is nearly $800.The basic black and white is whatever the entry level HP is. Low 100-series.Quote from: james_s on February 05, 2023, 06:06:30 pmI’ve not been impressed by the aftermarket toner various workplaces have used. Output was never as good as original.Quote from: james_s on February 05, 2023, 06:06:30 pmThat applies equally to inkjets. That’s how I have been running my current 15-year-old Canon inkjet for peanuts: people literally give away their old spare ink. (Canon inks don’t have expiration dates.)Quote from: james_s on February 05, 2023, 06:06:30 pm1. Avoiding Epson.2. Buying high end.Most people’s experience with inkjets is with $50-100 junk. You get a much, much better experience with a $300 printer.(Salesmen nowadays tell me Epsons don’t suffer from the severe clogging older models did. Not sure if I’m convinced.)

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2023, 06:32:00 pm
content: Quotewouldn't call 1000 pages tiny ,yea its 40% of a new cartridge,but 7 years on the black tonner is still at 6 bars out of 10 cyan yellow and magenta at 8 out of 10.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2023, 06:34:59 pm
content: The inkjet printers I had were HP and Epson, they were decent midrange stuff at the time.Then I had a used Xerox 6100 color laser that I paid $40 for, I used that nearly 15 years before it was having too many issues. Replaced it with the HP M254dw I have now which I absolutely love. It was under $300, prints amazing quality, text superior to inkjet and photos nearly as good, and they're waterproof and stable so that wins for me every time. If I need *really* top notch photos I can send out for them.It does duplex printing which no inkjet I ever owned could do, I use that feature frequently. The toner is waterproof so I use it to print waterslide decals for models, I use it for toner transfer PCB etching albeit not very often anymore due to the extremely low cost of sending out for PCBs. It will print on the nice thin laser paper rather than needing the thick inkjet stuff which is nice when printing a lot of pages. I'm still on the original cartridges that came in it and it has performed flawlessly so I couldn't be happier. Just the peace of mind of knowing I can let it sit for 6 months and when I fire off a page to print I know it will wake up and print without issues is well worth it to me.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2023, 06:35:10 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on February 05, 2023, 06:25:31 pmNope, 950 pages. For real. Cheap lasers are super expensive to run.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2023, 06:42:08 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on February 05, 2023, 06:35:10 pmYou have a strange definition of "super expensive".950 pages is more than I have printed in ~4 years. You mentioned a cost of $50, that's ~$12 per year, $1 a month, that's not "very expensive", that's nothing.Maybe we are just looking at totally different use cases here, but I think my use is typical of someone with a printer at home using it for personal use. There may be a sweet spot in the middle of the road where inkjet is cheaper for someone that needs color and doesn't need moisture resistance or long term archiving, but for the typical home user that prints maybe a couple hundred pages a year laser is a winner, and for a business that prints thousands of pages a year laser is a clear winner there too.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2023, 06:43:05 pm
content: Still a laserjet is way more likely to just work compared to an inkjet. However I strongly suggest not to go for the cheapest laserprinter but buy one for business/office use. I have owned a laserprinter for nearly 30 years now. My current one is the second printer I got. I have tried inkjet because it would be nice to have schematics printed in color but I found out inkjet is just too cumbersome.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2023, 06:54:07 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on February 05, 2023, 06:43:05 pmYou don't need an inkjet for color anymore. As I mentioned, my M254dw laserjet prints beautifully in color, even nice glossy color photos on plain paper. It's a bit bulkier than most consumer printers but it's more compact than the old business laser printers and it has a duplex mechanism for double sided printing built in. It has been a fantastic printer, best I've owned, cost less than $300 with free shipping when I bought it.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2023, 07:01:33 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on February 05, 2023, 06:42:08 pmNo, a standard definition called “page cost”.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2023, 07:03:50 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on February 05, 2023, 06:42:08 pmI have explicitly and repeatedly stated in this thread that despite the enormous page costs, low end laser printers can make sense for people who print very little. How many more times do I need to repeat this?!?

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2023, 07:05:14 pm
content: Quote from: themadhippy on February 05, 2023, 06:32:00 pmEntry level models often come with <500 page starter cartridges.

author: paulca
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2023, 07:17:24 pm
content: Like a lot of things they went up in price. £350+ now.https://www.amazon.co.uk/Brother-HL-L3230CDW-Wireless-Connected-Printing/dp/B07FY1MNC3/I think these are the OEM toners:https://www.amazon.co.uk/Brother-TN-243CMYK-Original-Yellow-Magenta/dp/B07FXXKFSC/3rd party sets are around £70. I note they do say "1000" pages. Still my originals are at 100% .... though I bet they sit at 100% for ages then suddenly drop to 50%.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2023, 07:33:14 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on February 05, 2023, 07:05:14 pmMine came with a 1500 page.. and made it to 600 or so before a firmware update rejected the starter cartridge.Lexmark were very helpful in shipping me a full 5000 page cartridge next-day for free when I complained. They're probably not so helpful about their defective pick tyres, but those weren't too expensive to buy. Once I found some.

author: MarkS
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 05, 2023, 07:37:13 pm
content: The Brother HL-L2300D ($120) that I linked to on page one has a$60 toner cartridgethat prints up to 2600 pages. That's $0.02 per page.

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2023, 07:44:35 pm
content: I bought my HP MFP M182n for 199,99 euro. No idea if the cartridges are startup ones, but I will be happy if they do 500 pages. With maybe 30 or even 50 pages a year it will last quite some time.But yes getting new HP toner for it is expensive and works out to ~17 cents a page if they indeed last 1350 pages and you print full color all the time. I did see a four pack (Black and all the colors) for <60 euros but that page does not list MFP M182n as compatible with so most likely a google fluke.Cheep tonerIt would drop the page priceEdit: A bit of a peeve is all the different models of cartridges these manufacturers develop. Makes finding the matching one a bit of a job.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2023, 07:56:58 pm
content: Quote from: pcprogrammer on February 05, 2023, 07:44:35 pmHow about reading the manual?And some websites make it simple by allowing to select the printer for which you want to buy a cartridge.

author: paulca
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2023, 07:57:58 pm
content: Laser photo printing isn't exactly great compared to an inkjet though.I have photos printed by InkJet in frames on my wall and holding a similar print from the laser up beside ... there is no comparison. I tweaked every setting I could, even ran it through various optimizers."Good", yes, the same quality as an Inkjet in photo mode on photo quality paper, no comparison.The photo paper for the laser has to be feed in the alternative feeder as it's thick and shiny and quite often jams the printer or slips and output has stripes/streaks.The trouble is... one of those A4 photo prints on the HP Inkjet took over an hour and used 10% of a cartridge.EDIT. Obviously this does not apply to "all" laser printers. The local print shop has a laser printer which will layout ink that's so thick you can catch your nail on the edge of it. Basic colour office printers.... nope.

author: shapirus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2023, 08:08:55 pm
content: Quote from: paulca on February 05, 2023, 07:57:58 pmthat's where Epson printers, such as L800/L805, with integrated (or separate, depends on how you look on it) 6-color ink tank shine.

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2023, 08:10:21 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on February 05, 2023, 07:56:58 pmI just opened the tray and found the number I needed. HP 216AWas doing the search to find the prices for replying here and just used the printer model number and google returned the one I linked. To bad, definitely not the correct onesThe correct compatible ones are 150 euros. But hey still better then the original HP ones at > 240 euros.Don't know if I will ever need them.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2023, 08:42:11 pm
content: Quote from: MarkS on February 05, 2023, 07:37:13 pmI have a 15-ish year old Brother laser printer that I still use. You can't beat the cost of ownership of that.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2023, 08:47:07 pm
content: Quote from: paulca on February 05, 2023, 07:57:58 pmCrikey! My 15 year old Canon (7 inks: CcMyYKK — CMY + light cyan and magenta, photo black, and pigment black) prints an A4 photo in around 4 minutes.

author: MarkS
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 05, 2023, 09:12:15 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on February 05, 2023, 08:42:11 pmThey really do seem to last forever!

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2023, 09:27:31 pm
content: Yes, the only annoying thing it has developed is a tendency to warp paper sheets a bit (which it wasn't doing before.) Not sure what's the cause. Has the fuser temperature gotten higher maybe?

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2023, 09:36:29 pm
content: I was going to say that this is more likely a difference in paper and/or humidity, but it occurred to me that it maybe could happen if one fuser fails (so the paper is only being heated from one side instead of both).FYI, as a general rule, fuser temperatures have gone down, because that makes it easier to only heat up the fuser when needed, as opposed to keeping it constantly hot like in old laser printers and copiers.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2023, 09:52:30 pm
content: I never heard anyone praise a Lexmark inkjet (a market that company exited a decade ago). You do, on the other hand, find plenty of people who bought higher-end Canons that love them, and a lot of people who like Epson (particularly for very frequent use). In other words: don’t condemn an entire product type just because one brand sucked.

author: ejeffrey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2023, 10:17:17 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on February 05, 2023, 06:06:30 pmI've had extremely bad results with after market toner for brother color laser printers. Random streaks, permanent bars on the paper edge, and one that appears to also break the drum unit, coating more to replace than it was supposed to save. Some are fine and some are garbage, but the problem I have is that it's hard to tell which is which in a sea of fly by night rebadged vendors. So I have pretty much given up buying after market tonerI still prefer laser printers, but if you buy OEM equipment at retail prices the cost per page of even a mid range SOHO laser printer is pretty high. Even B&W is moderately expensive and color is much higher.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2023, 10:50:28 pm
content: Quotehad cannon,epson and hp printers or multifunction devices over the years and they all suffered from constipation of the print head,even my ole star dot matrix was more reliable.

author: MarkS
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 06, 2023, 04:31:18 am
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on February 05, 2023, 09:27:31 pmBrother recommends replacing the drum unit every 12,000 pages. That may be it.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2023, 07:35:13 am
content: Quote from: ejeffrey on February 05, 2023, 10:17:17 pmYMMV but I know of a local business that ran aftermarket remanufactured cartridges in one of the small mono Laserjets for around 10 years and tens of thousands of pages without a hitch. They gave me the printer when the fuser failed, I put a new heater in it and sold it to a friend that is still using it as far as I know.Personally I've mostly been lucky enough to find NOS OEM cartridges on ebay for about the price of aftermarket so I took that route. I've very rarely had to replace one anyway though, I print a couple hundred pages a year on average, one toner cartridge lasts me a very long time since they don't dry out.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2023, 07:38:48 am
content: Quote from: paulca on February 05, 2023, 07:57:58 pmI can print out a demo page if anyone really wants to see, but I was stunned by the photo quality from the M254dw I have. I don't have any modern inkjets to compare it to, but it is definitely superior to what I could get from an inkjet printer on good photo paper the last time I had one, circa 2006. The old Xerox 6100 I had didn't do a great job at photos but this one really does look nice.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2023, 08:17:38 am
content: They’ve gotten much better for sure, and for printouts onto plain paper, will certainly be more vibrant and sharp than inkjet.* The very best photo quality is still from dedicated photo inkjets onto photo paper, since they use many inks (light cyan, light magenta, and some selection of the following: one or more shades of gray, red, blue, green, violet, or orange). And inkjets can print onto a multitude of textured photo papers (or other coated substrate, like canvas or plastic film), matte or glossy (or my favorite, satin), which is why they’re so popular for art prints. Laser can only print onto smooth matte paper, usually not even glossy paper.*For documents on plain paper, I’m still partial to inkjet because I hate how toner reflects light on its glossy surface, reducing contrast if light hits it at an inconvenient angle — I prefer the matte output of an inkjet. But that’s really a personal preference, not a quality criterion as such.

author: jfiresto
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2023, 08:32:48 am
content: I got 10 and then 20 years service out of my first two laser printers. The motor control electronics failed on the first one, perhaps from years of moderate mains over-voltage. I retired the second after the rubber rollers had hardened and no longer consistently picked sheets out of the main paper tray. Around year 18, I did not completely latch the top part after clearing a jam and "burned" lines into the imaging drum, but by then NOS drums and toners were going for cheap on ebay; 45 euros later and I had a new pair.I am into the fourth year of my current P2040dn, Kyocera's second cheapest B/W, business network printer. An original, 7000 page toner cartridge works out to about 1½ cents per page, about what I spend on paper. IIRC, the drum is good for 100 000 pages so that should not be an expense – as long as I make sure the printer is latched after I muck with it.Kyocera's cheapest printer uses a smaller, 3000 sheet toner that costs ca. 60 rather than 100 euros, which gives you an idea of where customer and manufacturer try to save or make money.The new printer is considerably bigger than the two it replaced, with lots of internal, thin stiffening ribs to use less material.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2023, 08:59:33 am
content: Quote from: pcprogrammer on February 05, 2023, 07:44:35 pmI 100% agree.Sure, I recognize that they need a few different sizes for various size (=print volume) printers, and that ink or toner formulations get improved over time (but as a consequence, can’t be used in older printers). But so much of it is gratuitous. I mean, the nonsense of manufacturing 3-4 capacities of the same cartridge (starter, standard, XL, and sometimes even XXL)… And then they region-lock them, so take all those SKUs and multiply them by 2 or 3. What a logistics nightmare.I loved it when Canon, for example, used three series of cartridges for all its inkjets: one series of little tiny integrated-head CMY and K for its portable model, one series of normal integrated-head CMY and K for entry level desktop models, and then one series of individual ink tanks for all its midrange and higher printers (with basic models using just CMYK, advanced ones using up to 11 different colors.) And they kept those series around for years at a time, so tons of models used a given series. Eventually they’d update all the models to an updated series, but keep it around for years.Over time, they started making separate versions for different regions, and the lifespans of each ink series got shorter. Some to split up and differentiate between lines with pigment color inks instead of dye, different sizes, etc etc etc.Same with lasers: the old HP LaserJet 2300 I have uses a toner cartridge not shared with any other model.It’s almost unchanged from the cartridge for the 2100/2200, with the conspicuous addition of a chip.

author: westfw
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2023, 09:06:36 am
content: The problem with Inkjet printers for "minimal usage" is not the rated "prints per (expensive but cheaper than toner) artridge, it that you don't get anywhere NEAR the rated number of prints before your cartridges dry up, clog (if they have built-in heads), or the printhead clogs.I've gotten a couple dozen pages from the cheap inkjet all-in-one, and many, many, more from the cheap laser (with its starter cartridges.)OTOH, the last set of 3rd party color laser cartridges I bought for my most recent color laser (A Brother) were essentially inoperable. Streaks all over! :-(

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2023, 09:11:25 am
content: Quote from: westfw on February 06, 2023, 09:06:36 amEveryone here agrees that inkjets are not recommended for sporadic use, including me, who is probably the biggest proponent of inkjet. For sporadic use, laser is better.AFAIK, the cartridge yield numbers (which are done with ISO test pages) are calculated from printing all at once until they go empty, so they will include normal periodic head cleaning, but not extra cleaning from sitting idle for long periods of time.Quote from: westfw on February 06, 2023, 09:06:36 amWhich is why I don’t recommendcheapinkjets to anyone for any purpose.Back when I sold computers at retail, there was the ongoing offer of $100 off a printer when buying a computer, making the cheap $100 HP model free. Most customers, left to their own devices, would buy that crap, with its low capacity integrated-head two-cartridge system. I always suggested spending $50 more for the $150 Canon that used inexpensive individual ink tanks. I’d explain that one single set of inks would already make up the added upfront cost. Those customers invariably were much happier with their printers in the long run, with much lower running costs and enjoying a far, far faster, more capable printer with duplexing, color LCD, and better print quality.

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2023, 09:18:18 am
content: Quote from: westfw on February 06, 2023, 09:06:36 amOMG, don't mention these horrible things unless you want me do derail this thread with my rants about how much I hate it when they refuse to scan because the ink ran out

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2023, 09:20:50 am
content: Quote from: magic on February 06, 2023, 09:18:18 amNot all models do that.

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2023, 10:25:02 am
content: You can better start a rant about the ID chips they stick into the cartridges and force using the manufacturers cartridges only and then fail to even work with official ones due to what ever. Wasted good money on buying a new color cartridge to find it not working. Ditched one HP inkjet printer due to that. It would still scan and with some fiddling print in black and white, but the hassle to get it working even when only using it once in a while is still aggravating.The new laser is doing what I expect from it and hope it keeps on doing it for a long time. Bought it in 2021 and when I turn it on it prints or scans what it needs to print or scan. Use it maybe once a month or even less.

author: EPAIII
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2023, 10:37:35 am
content: First fact: printer companies do not make a penny on low end printers. If you watch for sales they almost give them to you. They make their profits on ink or toner cartridges. That is a fact. In fact one of my printers did cost me under $10 after coupons and a sale price.I have gone through a number of printers for personal use. I don't print a lot, but I do print a variety of things, like schematics, drawings, larger format (11" x 17" and larger), etc. At first I bought 24 pin dot matrix ones. They worked fairly well and the ribbon costs were OK. But the quality level was surpassed in time and I just wanted better. My last one was a HP inkjet but the cost of HP ink was staggering.My present printer is a Brother, large format (11 x 17), four in one, ink jet and I love it. The cost of ink is reasonable and I can buy individual colors. B & W quality is good and color is OK, but not real photo quality. I still have the HP that I can use for photos. The Brother also does faxes, 11 x 17 copies, scans, and more. I have used it for several years now and it is great - IMHO. I paid under $175 for it a few years ago. But I am sure there are less expensive Brother printers available.As to the cost of the ink, I saved enough in about 18 months to pay back the full price of the Brother.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2023, 11:00:19 am
content: How has clogging been on the Brother? I’ve been considering a Brother precisely because of the large-format capability. But since my print volume is going to plummet once I finish school this summer, I don’t want something that’s going to suffer from infrequent use. (My Canon has had no trouble at all going weeks between uses.)

author: JohanH
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2023, 11:15:12 am
content: Laser printer with ethernet port that supports PostScript. PostScript is the common standard for "better" printers. Cheap ones might not support it and then you have to mess with drivers that stop working after a couple of years (guaranteed). PostScript works with all operating systems including Linux without messing with any drivers. I have a Brother HL-2250 many years old, before that had another Brother. I'm probably on my third toner cartridge. There are relatively cheap aftermarket toner cartridges available for these printers (in theory you could fill up powder yourself; haven't tried to mess with that).For scanning I use an old HP ink jet (only using the scanner part), works nicely in Linux with HPLIP/Xsane software.

author: jfiresto
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2023, 01:00:19 pm
content: I fully agree: getting Postscript on a printer generally means you can just plug it in and expect it to work. I can not remember an exception – surely there must have been one – which probably means that what few issues there were were trivially dispatched, for example, to get model specific features.I do remember that outputting to a Postscript printer through a Centronics (parallel) port can bereallyslow, but I suspect that no longer matters.EDIT: Now that I think of it, I have been getting network printers which have required perhaps an hour or two, total, setting them before first use. I go through many more computers than printers!

author: TopLoser
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 06, 2023, 01:52:12 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on February 02, 2023, 11:15:29 amI have 2 of these, bought one new from Amazon for £95 delivered and it was so good I bought another when they were on offer again.They take aftermarket cartridges, I just bought a set of 5 (3 colour and 2 black in one pack) for £47 - they work just as well as the original Brother ones. Don't believe the nonsense that lasers are more expensive than inkjets to run - just make sure you buy a laser that has a range of aftermarket cartridges available.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2023, 06:13:34 pm
content: A few years back, I bought an HP Color Laserjet MFP M277DW for somewhere around $400, give or take. It came with minimal capacity cartridges. Just for demo purposes, I suppose.A set of high yield color cartridges (3) costs $330 and the black cartridge is about $90. These are HP cartridges. So, figure about $420 to replace the cartridges on a $400 printer.The good news is that this is a low use printer/scanner/copier/FAX and the cartridges are rated for about 2600 pages. Low usage doesn't affect cartridge life or functionality.I also have a couple of HP black/white LaserJets (P2055x and M401DW) and they are a lot more economical.All 3 are great printers but, in terms of just cost/page, I don't recommend any of them. But they work well and Windows discovers them and does whatever magic is required for drivers. They are easily connected to Linux using the CUPS port 631 stuff.I don't think you can get a lower cost printer than something likehttps://www.amazon.com/HP-DeskJet-2755e-Wireless-Printer/dp/B08XYP6BJVThere are literally hundreds of printers with prices all over the map. You will have to do your own homework.

author: Ranayna
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2023, 08:14:43 pm
content: So, i'd like to play devils advocate here.Provided you are ok with having the printer connected to the internet and setting up an HP account to use it, you should take a look at an HP instant ink printer. If you *ever* might need to print a photo or something in color, these can be a good deal, if you print very litte.These printers start at around $50, and the smallest instant ink subscription is $0.99 per month, allowing to print 10 pages per month, and if you do not print, you can collect pages for three months.The big advantage this has over buying cartridges normally: You do not not need to care that the ink drys up, or gets wasted with cleaning programs. Once your cartridge is near empty, you get a new one.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2023, 09:10:03 pm
content: Quote from: Ranayna on February 06, 2023, 08:14:43 pmUntil the stupid thing doesn't work when you need to use it.

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2023, 07:44:26 am
content: American problems

author: Electro Detective
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2023, 08:05:45 am
content: Printer is no work?Maybe hardware problem that needs encouragementAfter encouragement, ask EEVblog members which is good printer to buyPrinter problems resolved

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 07, 2023, 08:42:57 am
content: IMHO this BS from HP begs for a hacked printer firmware/software so you can opt-in into cheapest tier, opt out and print the rest of cartrifge for free.

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2023, 08:47:36 am
content: Sorry sweetie, distributing modified firmware images is copyright violation.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 07, 2023, 09:11:25 am
content: Quote from: magic on February 07, 2023, 08:47:36 amI'm not saying what's legal according to the law. But that such BS asks for consequences. There is plenty of other hacked firmware and software even though it's illegal.

author: rdl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2023, 09:13:38 am
content: I can't believe people still deal with HP. How quickly we forget. This is the company that remotely disabled printers just because they could when non-OEM ink cartridges were detected.

author: jonovid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2023, 09:43:52 am
content: with cheap inkjets is to replace it when it stops working, the whole printer! bin it.who can be bothered with looking for the cartridge when the local office supplies has a printer sale 2 times a yr.

author: shapirus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2023, 10:48:29 am
content: Quote from: jonovid on February 07, 2023, 09:43:52 ambut don't forget to take it apart and rip the motors and other useful parts from it first.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2023, 12:36:30 pm
content: Quote from: rdl on February 07, 2023, 09:13:38 amI still deal with HP but I'm not part of the crowd that rents a printer through buying the consumables.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2023, 01:01:38 pm
content: People dismiss ink/toner subscriptions so readily, but don’t consider that for some usage patterns, they’re actually a really good deal. I’m not saying that they’re the right thing for everyone, but it’s dumb to reject them categorically without even knowing what they do.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2023, 01:04:40 pm
content: Quote from: bigfoot22 on February 07, 2023, 07:39:42 am”Nobody told me” except for the agreement they actively agreed to when they signed up for the subscription. I mean, come on, as a consumer you havesomeresponsibility to actually know what you agree to, not just blindly go “yeah yeah” and then get annoyed when you got (literally) exactly what you signed up for.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2023, 01:06:18 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on February 07, 2023, 01:01:38 pmI guess this is aimed at me. I'm not saying that a subscription model is bad. But it should be clear upfront so people can make a well informed choice. With many super cheap printers where you more-or-less get the printer for free and are paying through the nose for the consumables it is absolutely not clear you are buying into a subscription. I get that people feel tricked especially when third party consumables are actively blocked because the manufacturer didn't make clear they are renting equipment.

author: JohanH
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2023, 01:12:00 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on February 07, 2023, 01:04:40 pmBut when you invent crazy (but lucrative) business ideas, people have the right to call them stupid, at least after they find out that they have been fooled. I use to compare these business concepts to this creative idea: Monthly subscription for removal of big stones from your garden (for keeping the stones away probably; even though the work itself is done once). A fool and his money...

author: paulca
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2023, 01:38:36 pm
content: I believe the marketing model is referred to as the "Razor and blades" model.Razor + 1 blade = £2.994 replacement blades = £9.99Lots of markets have similar. Printer cartridges, pet supplies, air fresheners, etc. etc.I think the people it actually works out in favour for are a very narrow band. There will be a much wider band if "Didn't think it through, didn't read the small print, didn't do the basic maths in their head or just thought it's only a 3.99 direct debit and those cartidges are expensive."Of course the primary threat to this model is 3rd part consumables without the excessive profit making brand mark up. That's why they fight it so aggressively, ironically increasing EVERYONEs costs in the process.The arrogance of these people have a thought process whereby.... if a printer cartridge costs us three times more to make and prevent counterfiets, then by increasing the product premium we increase the elasticity of the margin. Literally elevating the price of their product to add more % on top. It's almost back to front business logic and the only reason they can do what is normally considered monopolising in capitalist law is because they get away with it.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2023, 01:46:19 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on February 07, 2023, 01:06:18 pmBut theyareup-front about it. It’s not like you can’t use the printer without a subscription. It’s entirely up to you whether to opt into that during setup or not. And up to you whether to cancel it later and return to purchased cartridges.(There are some large enterprise printers that exclusively use rental-only toner, IIRC. But they're models that are also only available by rental agreement, where you aren’t buying the machine at all.)HP has aseparatething (mockingly called “HP+”) that isn’t a subscription, but an agreement to only ever use HP ink/toner, with internet access so it can update the firmware to block newer clone supplies. On LaserJets, this is actually done by selling separate, cheaper versions of the printers, just with an “e” on the end of the model number. (So you must decide before purchase whether you want HP+ or not.) On the inkjets, “e” on the model number means that it iscapableof HP+, but whether or not you choose it is an irreversible decision you make during initial setup: permanently activate some extra (software) features but block third party inks, or permanently forgo it and give up those features. Unlike with the ink subscriptions, HP has earned some well-deserved criticism for this, because of not making it clear that the HP+ selection cannot be changed once made.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2023, 03:05:30 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on February 07, 2023, 12:36:30 pmQuite.I'm still using an HP PSC750 inkjet printer/scanner, which I bought in, I guess, 2005.They stopped making the cartridges about 3/4 years ago. I still have three unused black cartridges with a use-by date of mid 2022. They work fine, and I expect them to work for quite a few years. When they don't I'll consider my options.Major problems: none. Satisfied customer.

author: rdl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2023, 04:05:44 pm
content: This is basically what HP did back in 2016 except they implemented it by way of a software update where they very sneakily called it a "security feature".https://gizmodo.com/hp-apologizes-for-busting-peoples-printers-on-purpose-1787230865Quote from: tooki on February 07, 2023, 01:46:19 pm

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2023, 05:22:29 pm
content: Yeah, I’ve wondered what extra “protection” the HP+ option employs, since I assume that even without it, at leastsomethird party cartridges are blocked.

author: beanflying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2023, 01:08:26 am
content: Other than being full of a heap of plastic bits compared to older more solidly built Lasers, thoughts on a Brother 3230CDW Colour Laser as a sensible low use option?The only thing I would be missing on my wish list is a scanner but I could stick the carcass of my Canon Inkjet on the shelf for the 10-20 times a year I need it I guess.Current deal is a touch under $300 AUD with Tax and delivered (around $200 USD + Tax) and a set of 4 aftermarket Tanks is under $50 AUD when needed.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2023, 01:54:33 am
content: I strongly dislike the multifunction devices that have been all the rage for the last 10 years or so. Bolt the cheapest scanner to the cheapest printer and then when one of them breaks you have to replace BOTH devices, winning! Some of them won't even scan if there are not working cartridges in the printer.I have a standalone flatbed scanner that I get out when I need it. It's pretty ancient but works fine and was a replacement for an even more ancient scanner I retired due to lack of driver support in my OS, which itself was a replacement for an even more ancient scanner replaced for the same reason. I bought that one new way back when I got my first fast food job around the time scanners plummeted in price to around 10% of what they had always been. Even that ancient 300dpi SCSI flatbed still provided adequate performance for what I use a scanner for, and unlike a lot of modern flatbeds it could scan 3D objects with a surprising amount of depth.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2023, 01:58:05 am
content: Quote from: tooki on February 07, 2023, 01:01:38 pmThe big problem I have with it is that in the case of HP at least, once you opt into the subscription plan you cannot opt out, it makes some change to the firmware of the printer that from what I read is not possible to reverse. It is also not clear when you go to buy the thing that some models REQUIRE the subscription plan. On top of that I seem to recall that if you cancel, the ink/toner you have already received is bricked and unusable.If it was an optional thing that one could freely opt in/out of freely then I wouldn't have an issue with it. Also given my overall experience with subscription tech/software I feel justified in rejecting such things categorically. I have a severe allergy to recurring subscription fees, there's a reason printer makers are pushing these plans and it's not because it earns them less profit.

author: beanflying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2023, 06:58:23 am
content: Tend to agree on the multifunction devices I sort of got used to having it on the top of my last Canon Inkjet in a flatish form factor. They are a bit of a space monster for 'reasons' on Laser Printers it seems rather than integrated tightly into the body and the extra height in my case on a shelf is a bit of a deal breaker.HOWEVERI found 60mm extra height was available and this one claims to be an actual Laser over an LED with apparently better Colour rendition (not essential) for about $70 AUD extra so I spent a decent bottle of Scotch more and got a Brother HL-L8260CDW over it's cheaper sibling.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 08, 2023, 07:34:44 am
content: Quote from: james_s on February 08, 2023, 01:58:05 amYou still can use the printer but will need to buy normal cartridges. Which BTW even for XL version have lower capacity than this instant ink nonsense. So HP artificially limits the capacity that you can normally buy. The predatory practice is not a subscription as such, it would be totally fine is they charge for new cartridges sent. However they effing turn consumable into service with tiers of how many pages you are allowed print per month, not even charge you for actual pages printed.

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2023, 08:08:42 am
content: Quote from: james_s on February 08, 2023, 01:54:33 amIn optics, depth is inversely correlated with resolution.You are not guaranteed depth in a low resolution scanner, but you are guaranteed little depth in something that can resolve single digit microns.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2023, 10:50:53 am
content: Quote from: james_s on February 08, 2023, 01:58:05 amNo, you’re confusing HP+ (permanent agreement to never use third party ink, in exchange for some feature goodies) and Instant Ink (ink subscription). You can sign up for and cancel Instant Ink whenever you want, as I understand it. But yeah, the Instant Ink cartridges are coded as such, so the printer won’t print to them without an active subscription, but that seems fair, since you’re paying per page, not per cartridge.See my post above where I explain HP+.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2023, 10:56:52 am
content: Quote from: wraper on February 08, 2023, 07:34:44 amSo… the same as your cellphone minutes or megabytes.Just like some cellphone plans, the instant ink subscription lets you roll over a few months worth of unused pages, so to an extent, it lets you subscribe to your average page count, but go under or over in a given month without paying more.I haven’t done the math to see if such a subscription would be right for me (since I don’t have a printer where that’s available), but I don’t think they’re a bad deal for everyone. (Especially with inkjets, the subscriptions have advantage that high-coverage pages like large photos don’t cost extra, nor does head cleaning.)

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2023, 11:24:19 am
content: Quote from: magic on February 08, 2023, 08:08:42 amIt has nothing to do with depth-vs-resolution as such.It is simply because of the scanner type used: nearly all consumer scanners (and all document scanners) use “CIS” sensors (“contact image sensor”), which have practically no depth of field. They use an array (molded plastic, I assume) of tiny lenses in nearly direct contact with the platen or paper. They’re cheaper, they’re more compact, and they need less power, so they’re widespread now. The other option, which is what all scanners were before CIS took over, is CCD, where mirrors and a large lens focuses the line onto the CCD image sensor. These have much larger depth of field, and in some cases can also switch in a different lens to allow film scanning.Either one of these technologies is capable of plenty of resolution (e.g. 1200dpi).

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 08, 2023, 11:38:56 am
content: Quote from: tooki on February 08, 2023, 10:56:52 amThe difference with cellphone is that it's a service by its nature, something virtual. The problem with instant ink and overall trend is that they try to get rid of your ownership rights of physical items and basically put a tax on you, which does not seem to be that high on a first glance unless you actually calculate cost of ownership. Everything must be an effing subscription which is paid automatically, so you don't actually notice every time you lose money.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2023, 04:05:08 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on February 08, 2023, 11:38:56 amNone of those HP printersrequireyou to use an ink subscription. You are perfectly free to choose to buy cartridges instead.I don't think the ink subscriptions are inherently bad, given that the page costs are not crazy high in actuality. As I already said twice, for some people's usage patterns, it'll make no sense at all, but for some people it's actually a better deal. It's disingenuous to a) call it a mandatory tax when it's actually nothing of the sort, and b) ignore the fact that it's actually not a bad deal for some users.

author: ejeffrey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2023, 10:13:06 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on February 08, 2023, 01:54:33 amI'm a huge fan of multi-function printers, mostly for 2 reasons. First is that they automatically are a low volume photocopier, which is pretty convenient. Second is that the scanner is network attached and can usually be used independent of a computer. You can scan to a flash drive, email, scan to cloud service, or to a local file server. That basically means completely avoiding the need for any driver or software configuration at least for basic use, and is easy access for multiple household members. I think there are more network attached scanners now, but they used to be uncommon at least at the affordable end. Also, I'd rather not have two permanently installed network devices taking up space, or need to get the scanner out of storage and set it up for the occasional use.I have a Brother MFC-9340 with both a flatbed and duplex sheet feed scanner. For my needs, I wouldn't really consider going back to a dedicated printer.I do have a flatbed photo/negative scanner, but for most of my use it's totally unnecessary, and I haven't gotten it out in years.

author: beanflying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 14, 2023, 03:48:09 am
content: Quote from: beanflying on February 08, 2023, 06:58:23 am$0.02 review and install.Arrived undamaged in a very large, damaged and open box because one strip of tape was used to keep it closed for the 1000+km tripBonus points for really heavy Carboard carriers and minimal plastic/foam packaging.Painless install, plugged the printer into the power and hub, downloaded the W10 32bit stuff from Brother (came with a CD but I don't speak CD anymore), auto detect updated on the junk Atom WiFi pc in the bedroom and it spat out printed stuff over the network and I dropped a few things off random tablets and phones with no extra apps neededOn my main PC I didn't bother to install the software and drivers and just left Windoze do it's thing, auto detected it and installed what it needed to make it work.Apart from being HUGE compared to my last Inkjet an easy install and use. Colours seem not to bad but I will have a better look later.Back to playing inside the Plasma Cutter

author: paulca
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 14, 2023, 02:49:00 pm
content: A few thoughts. First. How many amps is going through THAT inductor? It looks like something electro boom would make.LED Laser or Laser LED or both? Always confuses me.

author: beanflying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 14, 2023, 03:54:34 pm
content: 45A Plasma Cutter so around there maximum. I only have a block circuit diagram and need to do some more digging yet so I can read the Arc voltage safely into a CNC controller and not fry it or just buy a divider and KISS. Fairly likely they are doing that in the internal circuitry so a little reverse engineering is neededBrother called the cheaper model 3230CDW a "Colour wireless LED Laser printer" and "Electrophotographic LED Printer" in the manual while the one I brought comes with a Class 1 rating and they call it a 'Color Laser' and '.Electrophotographic Laser Printer' in the manualThe cheaper one gets a bit of a beat up in the reviews for colour rendition and is also a bit slower but short of stripping both that is about all I based my extra few $ spend on. Part of that thinking was heat is part of the process and Lasers are likely a better more accurate point source over an LED here helping out the colour thing but

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 14, 2023, 10:24:37 pm
content: Quote from: paulca on February 14, 2023, 02:49:00 pmEither laser or LED. Fundamentally the same thing: Xerographic printing, that is, dry toner printing using a photosensitive drum. The difference is how the image is projected onto the drum: using a laser that scans across, or using an array of LEDs. Both can produce excellent output, and I’d say that the print quality depends more on the quality of the implementation than on the illumination technology chosen. LED printers can be made a bit more compact, however, since there’s no need for a scanning mechanism and associated optical path.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 14, 2023, 11:03:13 pm
content: LED printers fascinate me. If it's a 600 dpi printer, you need over 5000 LEDs to image a typical row of A4. Are they using an OLED module or just discrete LEDs in some kind of custom package? Is the module small and scaled to fit the page with lenses, or is it the size of the page? I wonder if you could 'burn in' your printer's elements by using certain LEDs more - and how long it would take before this effect could be noticed.Early DLP projectors had a way of doubling resolution by 'shaking' the DLP chip up and down slightly, effectively creating an interlaced pattern. Maybe vibrating the drum could achieve some kind of micro-resolution improvement.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 14, 2023, 11:22:20 pm
content: The one I took apart many years ago had an integrated bar with the LED dies. Looks like they haven't really changed.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 14, 2023, 11:30:54 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on February 14, 2023, 11:03:13 pmNeither. The LED assembly is, if I understand it correctly, assembled out of a few LED arrays, which are essentially “ICs” of LEDs, much the same way that we build billions of MOSFETs, diodes, etc. into a processor die (or pixels in an image sensor), we can make hundreds of LEDs within a single die.Modern LED printers have 1200dpi printheads, so about 10,200 LEDs across an 8.5” maximum page width.Seehttps://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/led-_laser_-printer-illumination-bar-hacking/where there is more discussion on the technology, including very informative source documents.Quote from: tom66 on February 14, 2023, 11:03:13 pmIt is the width of the pageanduses lenses. But the lenses are tiny and numerous. See the PDF attached to one of my replies in the thread linked above.Quote from: tom66 on February 14, 2023, 11:03:13 pmYou really wouldn’t want to vibrate the imaging drum, as I would think that would blur and dull the image by physically shaking the toner that’s on it.The now-discontinued Xerox wax printers (which were basically inkjet printers with page-wide printheads that sprayed molten wax instead of aqueous ink, and sprayed it onto a transfer drum rather than directly onto the paper) oscillated the entire head assembly horizontally to do exactly what you are thinking. (IIRC, it oscillated the width of 6 dots at the standard 600dpi, so that the printhead itself only needed to behave nozzles 1/100” apart.)It’s unnecessary on LED printers since getting 1200dpi out of a semiconductor is trivial, by making the diodes small enough and really close together.

author: westfw
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 14, 2023, 11:48:39 pm
content: Packing 5000-10000 LEDs across 200mm isn't that much more amazing than the way they can pack in inkjet nozzles!

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 14, 2023, 11:49:46 pm
content: Incidentally, the CIS (contact image sensor) scanner elements that are used in most scanners today (both flatbed and ADF) are essentially the same construction, just with linear image sensors instead of linear LED arrays. The page-wide arrays of tiny lenses look almost identical. Scanners of course also have asecondline of tiny lenses for the LED light source used to illuminate the paper. In some scanners, the sensors are RGB and white light is used; in others (most, I think), the sensor is monochrome and they use RGB LEDs to sequentially scan each color (so quickly that it looks like white light to the naked eye) with a single pass.(Anyone remember 3-pass scanners, which used color filters to scan RGB in completely separate passes, and grayscale by leaving out the filter? You didn’t dare touch the scanner mid-scan because even tiny misalignment of the scan passes would ruin the scan…)

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 14, 2023, 11:51:24 pm
content: Quote from: westfw on February 14, 2023, 11:48:39 pmAbsolutely!1200dpi is much more impressive in a micromechanical semiconductor like inkjet than in LEDs, if you ask me!

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2023, 12:15:11 am
content: Quote from: tooki on February 14, 2023, 11:49:46 pmI still have a HP 3 pass scanner in my mom's garage, it uses three separate CCFL lamps to illuminate the image. I remember working on another scanner maybe 20 years ago that had a color filter drum with a stepper motor, I don't remember if it was 3 pass or if rotated the filters as it went along. The first scanner I actually owned was a single pass color flatbed I bought for around $150 back in 1997 shortly after I got my first job. The price of flatbeds dropped massively right around then, previously they were >$1k.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2023, 10:06:11 am
content: The first scanner we had was a UMAX Astra 600S (the SCSI version), which cost around $300 in the mid-90s.I loved having it, but man, did it suck by today’s standards… I remember manually retouching scans to get rid of noise. But yeah, back then you had to spend a lot more money to get scanners with low noise. If I needed a really clean scan, I would go to my friend’s dad’s print business and use their $$$$ flatbed.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2023, 10:48:27 am
content: I have a cheapo "Canon LiDE" scanner where you can see the RGB lamp scanning the image. I was wondering why my colour documents were coming out a funny tint until I changed the USB cable, which was dropping too much voltage to properly illuminate the green and blue LEDs in the scan head. It's kinda amazing to me that it was still happy enough to scan in that condition.

author: beanflying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2023, 10:51:06 am
content: My last dedicated Scanner met with a change of use caseKind of wished I still had it as it is way easier to keep over the Canon Printer carcass for the job. Might need to trawl 2nd hand again.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2023, 06:00:35 pm
content: I don't remember what mine was, it was a 300 something and had a SCSI interface. It produced quite nice scans as I recall, I never had any issues with it until there wasn't driver support for newer versions of Windows. I remember it could do a surprisingly good job of scanning 3D objects.

author: eti
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2023, 09:18:35 am
content: A biro.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2023, 10:26:08 am
content: Quote from: james_s on February 15, 2023, 06:00:35 pmYeah, CCD scanners have much greater depth of field than the now-dominant CIS scanners. My current (anncient) all-in-one has a CCD scanner (because it also has a film/negative scanner), and I have occasionally used it to scan populated PCBs and the like.