I Love The Smell of Audiophoolery In The Morning  - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Sionyn
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2014, 10:41:48 am
content: The letter is the best bithttp://www.audioholics.com/audio-video-cables/top-ten-signs-an-audio-cable-vendor-is-selling-you-snake-oil

author: daqq
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2014, 11:27:32 am
content: I'd sum it up:You're being scammed if it's more than 20 USD/meter.You're being scammed if there is more than 0 audiophile/pseudoscientific buzzword (fidelity, quantum, special, resonance, cryogenetically, ...) in the sale description.

author: German_EE
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2014, 04:00:41 pm
content: I collect examples of Audiophoolery and looking through I have about eighty links so far, these vary from extra special cables that are thousands of dollars a yard to wooden knobs that are supposed to "elevate the sound" when used to replace factory fitted items on the front panel.My audio system? Home made pre-amplifier and power amplifier with 40A*** electric cable connecting a pair of Wharfdale speakers. Only the CD player came from a factory.***You don't need to use 40A, 20A will do at a pinch but this was an end of reel pulled from a skip.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2014, 06:19:07 pm
content: -20A-do you know if the bonding wires inside of those transistors, or PCB traces, or speaker coils can handle that kind of current?

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2014, 06:31:12 pm
content: Photonicinduction tested a "2kW" subwoofer and found that it could only handle 2kW for a few seconds. On disassembly, the coil is made of pretty thin wire.I just use CAT3 or CAT5 with all pairs connected in parallel for speaker wire. It should be more than enough until you get into really absurd power levels.What would be interesting is to repeat the Photonicinduction test but with a thin piece of wire in series, the goal of which is to have the wire fail first. Most likely even 24 AWG will outlast the sub.

author: G0HZU
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2014, 07:46:48 pm
content: QuoteI have never ever spent any money on any formal 'HiFi' equipment in my whole lifei.e. never wasted money on a new or used record player, CD player, amp or speakers. The only stuff here was given to me by my dad when I was a student and it is still going strong! eg Trio receiver/amp and turntable and Wharfedale speakers. I've forgotten what brand the CD player is.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2014, 08:09:22 pm
content: 20A because it is cheap and convenient to use regular mains solid or stranded house wire for speakers, which is rated for installing in the walls. I cheated and used the fancy Audiophile cable for the ends where they were visible, just to fool the viewers who though I had actually used the expensive stuff for 30m of run, as opposed to only using 4m in total which had come as a sample. Only reason was the stuff was flexible.

author: German_EE
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2014, 08:24:54 pm
content: Exactly, power cables are much cheaper than expensive speaker cables and they even come in a variety of colors should you need to match the wallpaper or carpet (gray in our case). Somebody asked about the power handling capability of the amplifier electronics, well, the output MOSFETs are about 20A and there are six per channel with the connections made using either 2,5mm wire or PCB with tinned copper wire soldered into the tracks. The speakers are 100W per channel.I have always believed that if you can lift your audio power amplifier on your own then it isn't big enough. That way fidelity is preserved even in the loud passages.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2014, 08:38:05 pm
content: Well, tried the HMA9500 I bought for scrap price at the scrapyard, and it turns on, does not blow up, and lights up "protect" light. I can just about lift it, it is 27kg.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2014, 08:49:58 pm
content: "If you can lift your audio power amplifier on your own then it isn't big enough."Then put some cobble stones in it,With new technology, weight isn't a valid indication for all power amps.End of the day, a power amp's job is to recreate sound. So sound quality should be important in determine if an amp sound good or not.

author: jancumps
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 29, 2014, 08:52:14 pm
content: Quote from: daqq on September 29, 2014, 11:27:32 amI thought fidelity wasn't a buzz word because there is a DIN norm for it (hifi DIN 45500).

author: G0HZU
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2014, 09:16:26 pm
content: My old freebie system makes 'sounds' when I put a CD in the CD player. It kind of makes the sounds I expect to hear and I don't know what type of speaker cable it has (apart from it being grey twin cable and skinny and cheap and old)Do I care if it sounds 'true' ? (no)Am I deluded enough to think it 'matters' if it doesn't sound true? (no)Has any musician anywhere ever produced recorded sounds that I want to hear as accurately as possible? (no!)Would I be able to tell if the sounds were accurate anyway? (no)Can I adjust the controls on the system to alter the sounds to make the sounds more pleasing to me? (yes)Which is most important? Pleasing sounds or accurate sounds? (pleasing of course)There are parallels with audiophoolery on forums like eevblog. I find the voltnuts, calnuts and timenuts to be just as deluded (and just as entertaining) as audiophools. i.e. there is the same pointless search for perfection with the same brand/model related dickwaving and circle jerking as they each shell out their £££ to climb their chosen social ladder. Just what is so important about seeing 5.00000V on a DMM display? Do they spend their evenings comparing 6th digit accuracy and drift on various models of HP or Fluke DMMs?At least the audiophools get to listen to some music

author: skipjackrc4
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2014, 09:27:51 pm
content: Quote from: G0HZU on September 29, 2014, 09:16:26 pmSure, but what the voltnuts do is actually measurable (by definition...). Audiophoolery is not. There is an enormous difference.

author: G0HZU
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2014, 09:40:24 pm
content: QuoteI would argue that (for the home/hobby enthusiast) the difference is irrelevant.To me the most relevant thing is that the audiophools get to listen to music.Are there also 'metre' nuts and 'kg' nuts?You can envisage some kind of annual jamboree where they all meet up and show off their 1 metre long sticks and 1kg weights.

author: MasterBuilder
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2014, 09:58:29 pm
content: Yes Audiophoolery is real,butMP3s and radio sound crapAnalog Synth filters and oscillators sound better than digital onesLower quality DACs, analog sound signal paths and transducers sound shit(all of the above are generalizations)HiFi has its place, but excellent can be had for 10s or 100s not 1000s or moreIMHO the biggest Audiophoolery is Beats by Dr Dre who painted up some average Headphones and *5 the price

author: G0HZU
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2014, 10:25:20 pm
content: QuoteYes, it's all about knowing when to stop. This also applies to time and voltage nuttery. The same applies to other hobbies like photography. Some people just aren't able to 'stop' at a rational point and it then becomes an all consuming goal to elevate their social status (i.e. elevate their dick waving) within the chosen field to ridicuous and pointless levels of (real or imaginary) precision.But at least the audiophools get to listen to music and the photographer can take pictures. I don't understand the visual appeal of a collection of calibrators and DMMs that can produce/display 5V very accurately. Maybe it gets more interesting and more rewarding after you look at the same meters showing 5.00000V for several days/months/years?

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2014, 10:59:48 pm
content: QuoteThe key to understanding this all is to recognize that what sounds "crap", "better" or "shit" is highly subjective. What sounds crap to you can sound great to others; and vice versa.So no point in getting too worked up about, or worse yet imposing one's judgment on others.

author: skipjackrc4
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2014, 11:34:16 pm
content: Quote from: G0HZU on September 29, 2014, 10:25:20 pmYou seem to have some sort of vendetta against people with high resolution equipment. While I agree that a lot of hobbyists get far too caught up in needless precision, saying that owning precise equipment (and a reasonable means to verify its accuracy) is "ridicuous  and pointless" is a complete fallacy. There is often a very real need in the analog sensing world to detect a 10uV change riding on a 5V (or whatever) DC bias, and if you see this change, you need to be sure that it is real and not drift in your equipment.

author: Rufus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2014, 11:47:23 pm
content: Quote from: G0HZU on September 29, 2014, 09:40:24 pmWhich would be so much worse than people showing off their collection of stamps, or coins, or rocks?Plenty of people go to trouble and expense because they like having things they don't need.The problem with audiophools is the trouble and expense they go to to not get anything and the lies and delusions claiming otherwise. If they called themselves collectors of wallet space (you know, where the money used to be) I wouldn't have a problem.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 30, 2014, 12:01:00 am
content: QuoteJust as there is this very real need for you to so precisely measure something, there is also this very real need for those audio folks to so precisely listen to their music via those expensive "audio-grade" cables.What I think some here are having trouble understanding is that value is a relative thing. What's worth to you may or may not be worth to somebody else.So calling others "fool" because you fail to comprehend their value systems makes you more of a fool than you may think.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 30, 2014, 12:02:45 am
content: Quote from: skipjackrc4 on September 29, 2014, 11:34:16 pmOften? Real need?

author: G0HZU
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 30, 2014, 12:06:01 am
content: Quote from: skipjackrc4 on September 29, 2014, 11:34:16 pmIn a physics lab or a cal house yes. But not for a DMM collector/sniffer in suburbia.

author: G0HZU
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 30, 2014, 12:13:55 am
content: Quote from: Rufus on September 29, 2014, 11:47:23 pmErr... Yes, I see more relevance and value in collecting rocks or stamps. Having a very precise 1m long stick in the house seems a bit silly in comparison.

author: Richard Crowley
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 30, 2014, 12:15:33 am
content: Quote from: zapta on September 30, 2014, 12:02:45 amProbably for some (many?) people here in their day job at their employers' office/lab.But I agree that most people would be hard pressed to justify "often" or "real need" at their home/hobby bench.Certainly there may be SOME people who are self-employed and whose livelihood depends of working to that degree of precision from their home-based shop.But that seems like a small fraction of the people we see here with test-equipment fetishes.We used to use a fresh carbon-zinc cell as a reference for 1.5V I wonder if there is a better modern readily-available reference like that?Or even if modern cells are uniform enough to use for better than +/- 10% accuracy?

author: Rufus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 30, 2014, 12:56:40 am
content: Quote from: dannyf on September 30, 2014, 12:01:00 amThe phools can't observe any audible difference between $10 and $1000 speaker cables (if they could they wouldn't run a mile at the mention of ABX testing). It is not a question of people valuing things differently. If they can't tell the difference between two cables there isn't anything to be valued.Of course they can tell the difference between two cables, it is written on the price tag and they probably look different but that is not the difference they claim to be valuing.

author: Richard Crowley
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 30, 2014, 01:39:03 am
content: The auidophools value the number of zeros on the price tag.Now I will openly confess that I am not a "Golden Ear" who can tell the difference between ordinary cable and premium, botique snake-oil cable.HOWEVER, the "Golden Ears" audiophools can't tell the difference either, unless they can SEE the cable. That is why you will never see any of them actually proving it by participating in double-blind listening tests. They have rushed right past objective and even subjective and landed in imaginary-land. They squandered whatever credibility they may have had several decades ago. They earned their moniker "audiophool" the hard way, by actually working for it.

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 30, 2014, 05:19:50 am
content: Professional gamers (yup there is such a thing) can tell if a game frame dropped at 60Hz (16.666ms) I couldn't but I'm not going to negate that they can't because I can't.Same applies to professional racers, they can be on the edge of grip vs sliding out of control.Just because we can't perceive the extra sound quality it doesn't mean others can perceive it. Still it does sound silly to me to purchase those very expensive cables, it has to have some placebo aspect to it, but so what, it's their money.They probably spend more on the right arrangement of furniture and sound dampening items situated at the perfect location than on the stupid cables to begin with.One thing that irks me is how restaurants don't use a professional sound engineers to design a public place where the echos of a crowded place just doesn't make your stay a better experience, you'll think that the right acoustics designed in a place that is going to be crowded will help. I know there are specialists in that area, but businesses never think about it so most places are just loud due to poor acoustic design (if any).

author: TheBorg
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 30, 2014, 05:38:49 am
content: Quote from: miguelvp on September 30, 2014, 05:19:50 amWhere do I sign the petition?I honestly do think audiophiles have a point, and I do believe that better sound can be had through better equipment. For me, I personally hate the sound of the included white Apple earbuds. They sound tinny and crappy and cheap. Put them next to even a $25 pair of IEMs and you'll hear loads of difference (mostly due to isolation, but still). But you can go too far and be caught up in tubes and amps and dirty electrons distorting your sound.Basically, the cost of most every hobby increases exponentially the better equipment you try to get. With EE's, this is usually high precision meters, etc, audiophiles the perfect setup and 24k gold cables, etc. What's important is trying to stay content somewhere in the middle of the curve where you know your equipment is as good as you are realistically going to need/use. Alternatively there is point C on the graph, representing the point at which your wallet is empty.

author: FrankBuss
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 30, 2014, 05:46:17 am
content: I've programmed audio monitoring software for some years and I can see too if there are for example some dropped frames with a 60 Hz framerate in the fallback of a (simulated) audio bargraph. But you can measure this as well. Once I even used a photodiode to display the delay from signal input to visual output with an oscilloscope and to measure the drops (easy with advanced triggering on pulse length). But ridiculous expensive speaker cables don't have a measurable difference (except in the filling level of your wallet).

author: Richard Crowley
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 30, 2014, 06:36:29 am
content: Quote from: miguelvp on September 30, 2014, 05:19:50 amYes it does. Because they are unable to actually demonstrate that they can perceive it. They never participate in double-blind tests because they can't tell premium from ordinary any better than you or I can.Now I truly believe they THINK they can perceive the difference, and they are willing to pay $$$$ for that delusion. I suppose that is more socially respectable than spending the $$$$ on mind-altering chemistry.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 30, 2014, 06:39:40 am
content: Quote from: miguelvp on September 30, 2014, 05:19:50 amIt's possible that there are aspects of reality that we cannot measure yet, however the audiophiles claims be tested with a simple blind experiment. Take a few audiophiles, have then listening in exact some conditions except for one variable selected randomly (e.g. a new wire vs broken in wire) and let then guess which is which. If their success or failure rate differs significantly from the statistical expectation then they may be on something. Than you can look for explanations.Similar to James Randy's experiment with the Australians:

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 30, 2014, 11:09:52 am
content: QuoteTwo things:1) (minor) the fact that no one can detect the difference doesn't by itself mean that the difference doesn't exist. Absence of proof is not the same as proof of absence.2) (more importantly) nor could the voltnuts, or scopenuts perceive a difference between 1v vs. 1.000001v or 1.5v/us rise vs. 1.500001v/us rise, without equipment.With even a <$5 in equipment, I can demonstrate to anyone the difference between a high quality cable vs. a poor quality cable. With a $2million scope, I am sure I can show a few more differences,

author: calexanian
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2014, 02:33:38 am
content: I am currently the on call technician for Alan Parsons.. You know what brand cables we use in his studio? Whatever is laying around!! Most of it is old RS electronics stuff he bought closeout before he moved to the US. Basically Radio Shack quality stuff. We joke from time to time about all this nonsense. Also every couple of years i have dinner with a group of grey beards, one of which is Laurie Fincham president of engineering at THX. Same conversation. What snake oil! We joked about making a audio cable with polarity markings running both ways and seeing if you could sell it as special Bi Polar wire. 10 foot bi polar speaker wire sets. only $1259 a set! All we need to sell is one pair a week or so. hahahahahaha... Or like the jokers selling hemp cone speakers and saying they invented it. Hemp was always used in speakers up until polyfiber took over in the 70's and 80's What marketing jerks....

author: Kremmen
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2014, 05:48:50 am
content: Quote from: dannyf on September 30, 2014, 11:09:52 amTrue, but a difference that is undetectable is not a difference that matters. If you cannot detect the improvement an audiophool accessory (or any other kind of accessory) brings, why bother?QuoteDitto.QuoteA difference that matters? I bet you can't, actually. Or only if the poor quality cable is in fact broken or grossly unfit for purpose.

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2014, 08:40:46 am
content: Surely Royalty can be more sensitive to stimuli:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Princess_and_the_Pea

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2014, 10:11:12 am
content: QuoteWhy just joke about it? Go make one. You will be richer and someone somewhere will be happier.A win-win situation to me.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2014, 10:48:56 am
content: There ARE differences between bargain basement amplifiers and premium/prosumer amps. They do sound better - typically lower noise floor, better frequency response and lower THD.There is little or no difference beyond most premium gear like $20k audiophile amps.However, once you get past a point - about 0.1% THD or lower - I don't think any audiophile would be able to blindly separate them.

author: German_EE
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2014, 03:49:19 pm
content: I agree with the basis of your statement however there is still a little mystery here. Go along to your local Hi-Fi showroom and arrange a listening test of premium equipment using your favorite piece of music. The salesman will switch between amplifiers and almost everyone will be able to hear subtle differences in the sound. The amplifier SHOULD have a flat frequency response from (say) 20 Hz to 30 KHz yet one amplifier will sound different to another.Why is this?There are hundreds of possible answers from the output impedance of the power supply to the characteristics of the power transistors under load and all of these variables work together. Get an audio spectrum analyzer and a good scope and it's possible that you might see a difference in the waveforms between amplifier A and amplifier B but I wouldn't like to guarantee it.Polarity sensitive speaker cables, rocks on your connectors, wooden knobs instead of metal ones, these differences cannot be measured and I will put good money against a blind test that they cannot be heard. There are however differences in output 'tone' when considering one high-end amplifier against another because we can hear it.

author: calexanian
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2014, 04:00:26 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on October 01, 2014, 10:48:56 amWhats sad is that even the plain Jane LM3886 can produce sub 0.1% THD and is all of 3.50 each in quantity and can use standard 1/4 watt resistors and standard electrolytic caps around it. I guarantee you is i set up a blind A/B comparison. between a just ad water instant oats 3886 circuit and a 5K plus fancy amp with all else being equal, the comments would be a 50/50 average of each. I think we should do this test as a the EEVblog community. Yes you could make a convincing argument for added features, integrated preamps, number of inputs and outputs, build quality, aesthetics, etc... Ok. Fine. A Nissan Versa will deliver me to my destination in the same safe manner as lets say an Aston Martin. But the Aston is way more fun... That concept I understand. The difference is where the two cars do not handle anywhere near each other in performance, two 50 watt sub 0.1% THD amplifiers over the the same response range can be proven to be identical. Everything else is psychosomatic. I personally like the look of McIntosh amplifiers. I understand why they cost more than a Sony integrated amp. I just hate when the bullshit marketing people get involved. I will stick with my $5 swap meet found radio shack 10 watt per channel integrated receiver thank you very much and save my money.

author: FrankBuss
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 01, 2014, 04:30:33 pm
content: Such a test would be interesting. But you can't convince people who believe in cable polarity. If they were right in 50% of the tests for the orientation, I guess such people would say "that's not bad, I could identify it sometimes, so there must be a difference"

author: Richard Crowley
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2014, 05:02:22 pm
content: Highly recommended viewing for anyone who puts any stock in listening tests..."A Different Take on Blind Audio Tests" - Jon Iverson of stereophile.comhttp://twit.tv/show/home-theater-geeks/221

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2014, 08:05:11 pm
content: QuoteDepending on what's in that "all".It is actually quite easy to tell amps apart, especially if you are allowed to drive them into clipping and they have different clipping points - a 70w LM3886 vs. a 1w tube amp for example.If you were to keep the amps within their performance envelope, it is incredibly difficult to tell amps apart - that's essentially the stunt that Carver pulled back then. Prof. Leach (rip) has a link on his site to a research report where "audiophiles" were pitted between a SS and valve amp and other than a couple, none of them could tell the two apart statistically. The couple who did did so by honing in the 50hz hum from the valve amp.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2014, 08:06:21 pm
content: Quote from: Richard Crowley on October 01, 2014, 05:02:22 pmQuoteDude, isn't that the whole point of a dbx?

author: Excavatoree
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2014, 09:01:10 pm
content: Quote from: dannyf on October 01, 2014, 08:05:11 pmI had no idea Dr. Leach had passed away almost 4 years ago. He was one of my favorite professors. He went to the lab and helped me with my Gilbert Gain cell multiplier that I was having problems with. I couldn't believe a professor was taking the time to help an undergrad with a lab exercise.In his office, he had an open frame amplifier that he used to play background music. It wasn't much to look at, but worked beautifully. My greatest regret is that I never took his audio engineering class.Apologies to all for the OT post.

author: G0HZU
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2014, 09:05:38 pm
content: A lot of it still boils down to what motivates us as humans. I'm sure the audiophiles don't just buy the cables for the (imaginary) performance gains. They are also status symbols within their community no matter how misguided they all are.Women will happily spend $$$ on needless status symbols like designer handbags or shoes and men/women will spend a fortune on watches or jewellery. In electronics, you will get some people needlessly spending silly money on numerous megadigit DMMs and calibration tools because these are status symbols within that part of the electronics community.However, if the focus is on hifi then you will get people spending stupid money on needless hifi accessories. The snake oil salesmen simply exploit this vulnerability and come up with dafter and dafter products to make the punters part with their cash.Obviously a decent watch or diamond ring will usually hold its value (or even go up in value) and the hifi products (and handbags and shoes) are grossly overpriced for what they are but that doesn't stop the enthusiast wanting the blingy cables or fuses or the pretty $$$ granite slabs.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2014, 10:07:21 pm
content: QuoteLikely the low TIM "Leach" amp.That discussion really started the revolution in audio philosophy over the last 20 or so years, of migrating from a focus on low-THD from high gain to low gain + low/no negative feedback. Difficult for the "chip amp" guys to comprehend,

author: Richard Crowley
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2014, 10:20:59 pm
content: Quote from: dannyf on October 01, 2014, 08:06:21 pmAre you willing to spend a pile of cash on something (a cable or whatever) that MAYBE sounds SLIGHTLY DIFFERENT to SOME people?Not "better", simply "different". In MY world, THAT distinction isn't worth the electrons it took to display this sentence on your screen.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2014, 10:24:44 pm
content: On "golden ear types": most of golden ear types don't have superior hearing - put them to a dbx and they will fail.That doesn't mean that there doesn't exist people who may have superior or even superb hearing. You just need to keep an open mind for such people / possibilities.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2014, 10:27:09 pm
content: QuoteThen more power to you.The point is that whether it is worth it to you or me or somebody else is highly subjective and none of anybody else's business. You have no right to impose your judgment on others, nor do others have the right to impose their judgment on you.You just need to be more tolerant to others who share a different view / value system.

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2014, 10:28:24 pm
content: On my guitar if I have one string off by a little bit it changes drastically the sound of a chord and makes it sound bad. But if I play the individual note that is off, I can't tell that it's out of tune.Maybe it's more a matter of being able to appreciate the whole than the particular frequencies.Just playing a bit devil's advocate.

author: Richard Crowley
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2014, 10:31:06 pm
content: I agree with @calexanian. If "golden-ears" people want to squander large amounts of money on premium goods because it shows how rich or elite or whatever they fancy themselves to be, then go for it.But don't bother trying to justify it with psuedo-science mumbo-jumbo gobbeldygook arguments full of impressive sounding terms but meaning nothing.Yes, I am impressed with the superiorimaginationspossessed by "golden ears" people. I will concede that they ACTUALLY CAN HEAR the differences when they can PROVE it in statistically-valid tests. Meanwhile, I can only conclude that they are inflating their imagination with cash.

author: Rufus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2014, 11:07:59 pm
content: Quote from: dannyf on October 01, 2014, 10:27:09 pmYou mean we should treat and respect audiophoolery like a religion?

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2014, 11:37:18 pm
content: QuoteIf ***anyone*** wants to squander ***any*** amounts of money on ***anything*** for ***any reason*** or ***no reason at all***, then go for it.That's the beauty of living in a free society,

author: Richard Crowley
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2014, 11:51:34 pm
content: Quote from: dannyf on October 01, 2014, 11:37:18 pmRight. But that is not what the issue is here, is it?As I understand it, the issue here is the attempt to justify charging high prices by deception and puffery.Nobody who is selling a wristwatch that costs 1000x more than your average commodity quartz mass-market thing is claiming that the premium watch is 1000x BETTER.It just costs 1000x more because that is what people want to pay to get that brand name on their wrist.Same with audiophool gear. The "difference" can't be measured because there is no difference.And the "difference" can't be demonstrated to be perceived by the Golden Eears because they are either unable or unwilling to prove it.Could they make a watch that is accurate to 0.0001 second per year? Possibly.Would it be worth the huge extra cost? Not to anybody in the Real World.People who need high-precision timing don't rely on wrist-watches.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2014, 12:01:44 am
content: QuoteThat may not be the right understanding. From where I sit, it is people claiming that it is unjustified because they couldn't hear the difference so no one could hear the difference so it mus be deception and "puffery".Just as every buyer of anything is entitled to pay as much as s/he wants for it, any seller of anything is entitled to ask as much (or as little) as s/he wants for it.It is none of our business if that price, however high or low, is justified or not.What I take real objection to is people's insistence that other free people shouldn't have the right to do things in certain ways that some of us disapprove of. They seem to think that they are entitled to project their views onto the rest of the society.That's just so wrong on so many levels.

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2014, 12:11:26 am
content: Quote from: dannyf on October 02, 2014, 12:01:44 amWhy does it always have to come down to an argument about rights? The general consensus here seems to be that the sellers of these items are wrong for lying about the item's benefits. I don't see very many people advocating removing their right to do that, though you always seem to swoop in to insist we have. I for one fully support the seller's right to be a horrid twat, but I also support my own right to then point out that he is a horrid twat. Likewise, I fully support the buyer's right to flush his money down the crapper, but I also support my own right to claim that's what he is doing.Rights for everyone!Not just sellers and the loose-walleted.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2014, 12:38:38 am
content: Then there are the audiofools who claim two separate runs for the highs and lows coming off the same amp make a difference. It's nonsense like many other audiofool beliefs, but it does get them ready for something that could in fact increase audio quality which is separate amps for the highs and lows. Use a high supply voltage, (relatively) low carrier frequency amp for the lows and a low supply voltage, very high carrier frequency amp for the highs. Perform the crossover in DSP and you have it! Better yet, put the amp assemblies right next to the speakers and send the audio by optical fiber, with a switch on the amps selecting whether to use the left or right channel. And design the amps to automatically power on and off with the signal (easily done with only a few mW use in the "off" state) so you don't have to manually do that. With a little more effort, it could be designed such that the volume setting can be sent over the fiber, though that might not be possible sticking to the S/PDIF standard.

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 02, 2014, 05:46:36 am
content: Quote from: dannyf on October 01, 2014, 10:27:09 pmIt's more than that though.... the hucksters selling the audiophoolery junk are making claims that are factually false, whether it be representing things incorrectly or whether it be simply making insinuations and spouting out buzzwords. As the link earlier stated, if it was simply companies saying "we made these really cool cables out of high-cost parts", that would be one thing. But to them represent them as having effects they don't have, like "deepening the sound stage" or "adding significant robustness to the notes", they are lying for the sake of money. And that's tantamount to fraud.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 03, 2014, 07:10:19 pm
content: Quote from: dannyf on October 02, 2014, 12:01:44 amNo one should have the right to sell something under completely false pretences because they're committing fraud. It's fair enough if a seller markets their product on specifications or even brand and aesthetics and charge what they like for it but claiming it can achieve things it can't is deceiving the buyer and therefore fraud.If someone wants to sell an amplifier with that extra order of magnitude lower distortion and wider bandwidth than anyone can hear, that's fair enough but making false claims about their products such as it requires special magic cable is completely wrong and they deserve to get done for it.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 03, 2014, 08:18:47 pm
content: QuoteWhat "completely false pretences" do you think they have commited, in their words?QuoteWhat claims have they made, in their words, that in your view it achieved?

author: bob808
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 03, 2014, 09:55:22 pm
content: Oh, I need to get some popcorn for this

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 03, 2014, 09:58:35 pm
content: Quote from: bob808 on October 03, 2014, 09:55:22 pmDon't bother, it's completely predictable. Have a good movie with your popcorn instead.

author: bob808
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 03, 2014, 10:08:14 pm
content: You may be right, but I am still astounded by the fact that "believers" are trying to debate this on an Electronics Engineering forum.That stuff may work on diyaudio or audiokarma or forums that are more audio related. Here you'll just get your head bashed by facts and measurement procedures and pure physics.

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 03, 2014, 10:14:09 pm
content: Quote from: bob808 on October 03, 2014, 10:08:14 pmNot sure what thread you are following, maybe the movie you are watching to go with the popcorn is distracting you

author: bob808
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 03, 2014, 10:22:26 pm
content: I am following this oneI am wondering, is there any owner/engineer at any of these companies that are selling Zen solutions that actually believes what they're selling/saying? Or are just laughing their ass off while the shelves are emptying?I sure do love the way some cables look thou. But I guess that's all for me.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 03, 2014, 11:07:43 pm
content: QuoteThe two are not mutually exclusive. There is a demand for something - however, irrational you may think of it.You have two options:1) do nothing;2) take advantage of it by satisfying that demand. They are happier and you are richer (aka pareto optimal).The difficulties many "engineering" types face are due to their insistence of taking a simplistic view of the world we live in. Everything has to be black or white. They are unable to comprehend the notion that humans are incredibly complex and the black-or-white approach does not always work. They always want to "optimize", without understanding that sometimes it is optimal to be sub-optimal.Thus, taking some classes in humanity or economics will help greatly.

author: bob808
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 03, 2014, 11:17:21 pm
content: Still, by scientific method we have developed technologies and drugs that help you when you are sick.What if you have a medical problem, and the doctor would recommend a piece of expensive wire that has some properties that can't be measured, and they manifest random at people who have the ability to accept the wire's help?My point is that "beliefs" have no place in engineering hangouts.I can accept everyone, but if I happen to have an opinion, I will share it.Now, there is no demand without the bulls*it about cryo and cable polarity and weird wood risers and pseudo-science.And they prey on the gullible. That's why, here, you can't have discussions about stuff like that. You could try, but you will only face reality around here.Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2014, 12:01:09 am
content: Quote from: dannyf on October 03, 2014, 08:18:47 pmARE YOU JOKING? You really haven't read some of the audiophool bullshit which we're condemning here have you?Dark matter optical coating for CDshttp://www.machinadynamica.com/machina51.htmSpecial stick on rocks for cableshttp://www.shakti-innovations.com/audiovideo.htmSilly cable standshttp://www.oregondv.com/CableElevators.htmThey make false claims about all of the above improving the sound quality of an audio system and charge obscene prices - it's fraud!

author: bob808
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2014, 12:04:42 am
content: @miguel and dannyfSo, basically you are promoting the idea that it's ok to go get a bite (pun intended) from this market right? Under the assumption that hey, it's there for the taking. Created by others, you'd just supply the demand?I think this is immoral, and represents a good portion of what's wrong in many aspects of today's society. You could use your gift and make something that could be of actual use. I think that learning engineering to infatuate some customers and prey on the others is wrong.Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2014, 12:14:14 am
content: Quote from: bob808 on October 04, 2014, 12:04:42 amI agree, the idea that just because they're people ignorant enough to be conned out of their money, then doing so is a valid business model is disgusting.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2014, 12:18:03 am
content: QuoteI think that's the poster child of the small-mindedness I was talking about earlier.You have to understand that the world is far more complex than we will ever comprehend, or science will ever be able to explain. Rejecting a view/ observation/theory because it is inconsistent with today's scientific understanding is itself unscientific.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2014, 12:21:04 am
content: QuoteCalm down. No reason to shout as we can hear you perfectly fine.QuoteSo specifically with regards to that and other examples:1) What "completely false pretences" do you think they have commited, in their words?2) What claims have they made, in their words, that in your view it cannot achieve?

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2014, 12:49:17 am
content: Quote from: bob808 on October 04, 2014, 12:04:42 amDon't put words in my mouthOnly thing I said is that I can tell if my guitar is out of tune by playing a chord, but I wouldn't be able to tell by playing the individual notes of the chord.I'll add that I prefer the wine of the region I was born and raised and I'm particularly inclined to the gastronomy of the same region.Others won't agree on those tastes, so? But now that I live in Chicago, I have to pay way more than back in my hometown to experience those tastes, foolish, not to me.

author: bob808
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2014, 01:26:53 am
content: Exactly, science is explaining phenomena via calculus and measurements. You are posting on such forum, not on a life philosophy forum. Please respect that.It is not that we, or at least I am not open to new, yet undiscovered phenomena, it's just that I will believe that when it is properly translated by science. Asking me to believe something that science will never be able to explain is a lost cause.Mind you, if you do have some personal research please share some, in a scientific manner. If you've been brainwashed (I'm not saying you have been) please go preach that nonsense somewhere else. Dark matter coating on CDs? Do you really have to ask? This is not a question of "maybe dark matter is everywhere and we're all coated in it" (basically he would not be lying if that was the case), it's about using those terms to convince people that they are buying cutting edge tech.That belongs to the "loony bin" where a perpetuum mobile also belongs (outside of theory).If you study some NLP techniques you'll be able to convince people of a lot of crazy stuff. That doesn't make it true, or moral.You should not post this bulls*it around this forum. If you have something good to contribute, ok, I can respect that. Just don't mock the eevblog community.Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

author: nitro2k01
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2014, 01:32:40 am
content: Quote from: dannyf on October 04, 2014, 12:21:04 amThe best way of being a charlatan is to invent a problem that doesn't exist, so you can say that you technically didn't lie, upon scrutiny. They're talking an awful lot about how to solve the problem, but the whole the description of the actual problem fits within a single sentence:QuoteWe are to take it on their word that scattered light will penetrate the aluminium foil, scatter, once again penetrate the aluminium foil and then that whatever is left of the light "could' be picked up as noise. We are expected to believe that the manufacturer of the CD player didn't cover the inside of the player housing with a material that absorbs all relevant wavelengths to prevent them from scattering inside the player.So again, since they're failing to demonstrate that this is actually a problem, they're not technically lying when they're claiming to solve the problem. But, this bit stood out to me as well:QuoteThis makes very little sense. They're framing the light spectrum in terms of visible and are talking about complementary colors, which doesn't make sense in the context. What does talking about complementary colors matter for light that will never reach the eye? "However, the infrared scattered light - because it's invisible - cannot be influenced by color ... So other means must be employed to absorb it" This describes IR light as something very mysterious, that only this magical product can block.Outright lies? Not sure. Filled with weasel words for luring people who are illiterate about these things? Certainly.Edit: Haha. Just looked at the rest of the site. It seems like the "Dark Matter" coating was literally the sanest product they're selling. Scattered infrared light? Infrared light exists, so maybe it does something. Who knows right? Now take a look at the "Blue Meanies", a sticker you can put on a wall to tune a room.http://www.machinadynamica.com/machina47.htmQuoteMind matter-interaction. The subconscious mind interacts with room boundaries. Yes, totally not snake oil. Note how they're careful to point out that these stickers actually have no physical tangible effect, again useful if someone would have the propensity to claim that they're lying.And of course, they have a pebble product.http://www.machinadynamica.com/machina31.htmSometimes I wonder if some of these pages are actually a psychological experiment, or just comedy. As per Poe's Law, I'm stumped.

author: electrophiliate
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2014, 01:49:19 am
content: As the saying goes, a fool and their money are soon parted. But do citizens have a right to scam and fleece others in the name of market forces? I guess free-market proponents (a few of which lack scruples and are involved in the scamming/fleecing) would be against any sort of regulation or intervention for audiophoolery?While I agree there is probably more to physics and biology than we currently know, that probability is often used to justify bullshit and is unimportant if specific claims can already be tested. Technical claims can be tested with instruments, and subjective claims can be tested in blind trials that account for any environmental nuances and 'white-coat anxiety'.This issue sort of reminds me of the health supplement industry, rolling in money but apparently reluctant to conduct decent controlled trials to demonstrate efficacy of the hyped products. So when will Monster et al. be conducting such trials for their products to justify the hype? As someone else suggested earlier, products identified as audiophoolery tend to be well-made, so the focus should be the quality and durability of the product rather than how much better it allegedly sounds.Quote

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2014, 02:12:07 am
content: QuoteNot sure which is your "this".QuoteWell, the assertion is that1) their claims are "completely false pretences"; and2) it cannot be achieved.Sounds like you aren't sure that neither accurately discribe the claims?I think we are in agreement there.QuoteWhat's "weasel" is highly subjective. so we should skip that one.To lure someone, you need to have an intent. How do you know that they have the intent?

author: nitro2k01
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2014, 02:30:43 am
content: Quote from: dannyf on October 04, 2014, 02:12:07 amPlease refer to the quote from their page, which you removed the quote, and the following part of my post, which you removed from the quote.Quote from: dannyf on October 04, 2014, 02:12:07 amI put forth a bit of a different proposition. "The best way of being a charlatan is to invent a problem that doesn't exist, so you can say that you technically didn't lie, upon scrutiny." What I will say about that product is that they have failed to present evidence that the problem they're claiming to solve even exists.But let's look at the other example of the "Blue Meanie" stickers, described as such: "Codename Blue Meanies operates via mind matter-interaction. The subconscious mind interacts with room boundaries..."This is grade A religious bullshit, that is best described by the phrase"you're not even wrong". It's a claim so devoid of substance that it cannot even be proven or disproven, and is thus meaningless.A fool and their money are indeed soon parted. The difference is whether you glorify this, for example per free market capitalist first principles, or if you find it immoral.Quote from: dannyf on October 04, 2014, 02:12:07 amI concede that I cannot not know for certain that they are not incompetent and mentally ill.

author: bob808
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2014, 02:33:55 am
content: I'm amazed that you still reply on this matter. You are beating a dead horse. It's stupid, stop it. Those claims are border line legal. The act itself of carefully controlling the (fictive) words used in the claims is pure evil, made for manipulating. That is the lowest type of commerce. Advocating further in any way shape or form is questionable.Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2014, 02:37:11 am
content: I just don't believe you are defending the poor victims that spend hundreds of thousands in audio equipment and you feel you are superior to them because you see what it's wrong with them.What makes you superior to them? when they are the ones with the disposable income in such quantities that might be totally foreign to your comprehension?Why will anyone buy an Armani suit, or a Gucci purse, or get a very expensive haircut or whatever?When is the last time you contemplated in purchasing a $5 million painting?What is snake oil to you, it's a conversation piece to them.At the same level, the energy and time spent on this thread could probably have feed an starving family for over a month.I think you guys are defending the wrong income bracket.

author: Rufus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2014, 03:07:34 am
content: Quote from: miguelvp on October 04, 2014, 02:37:11 amYou don't need to be in a high income bracket to spend $20 on some green crap to spray on your CDs or to spend $200 on a blueray player and have some dishonest sales droid tell you the picture will be crap if you don't spend another $65 on a gold plated HDMI cable.Of course we are more likely to comment on ridiculously expensive snake oil but the rich are not the only customers for snake oil.

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2014, 04:14:07 am
content: Quote from: miguelvp on October 04, 2014, 02:37:11 amConversation piece, my ass. Spending money entirely for the sake of being able to show that you earned it in the first place - is there even a better definition of either waste or vanity?

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2014, 05:41:06 am
content: And you don't do that in perspective to people less fortunate than you? Maybe you don't waste or ever bought a thing that you really didn't need.Or is it better for them to keep all their money and don't spread it around?Vanity is a perception as well, social circles or feeling like a million bucks, empowering yourself, whatever. People in Europe in general buy brand name clothes at pretty high prices, I'm happy with cheap jeans, t-shirt and cheap sneakers not those brand Nike air crap that don't last anyways.People buying the lastest up to date phones or changing cars often. Complaining about the new IPhone 6 bending, meh it's pretty crappy but keeps the economy moving.

author: bob808
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2014, 10:35:52 am
content: I agree there might be a different cultural perspective between us and hence the current dialog.And I am not superior to them. It's just that I see people like you and dannyf that have no morals whatsoever when it comes to money. And please, don't give me that Robin Hood attitude.Have a read:http://www.forbes.com/2005/12/15/expensive-stereo-technology-cz_dl_1216feat_ls.htmlHere's a quote:"But for music connoisseurs, comparing a glorified boombox with state-of-the-art audio equipment is like saying that it’s just as much fun to drive a $22,000 Pontiac Grand Am as it is a $200,000 Ferrari F430. The two cars fulfill the same basic function, but the Ferrari does it on such an infinitely higher level of performance and craftsmanship as to render all comparisons absurd."Do you understand the difference? It's not a Pontiac with silver all over and stuffed with tech that science could not ever explain. They actually pay for something, there is some work to be appreciated in that Ferrari. Same goes for a single ended tube amplifier that has it's output transformers wound with pure silver. They actually made distorsion measurements etc. That thing can deliver what it's advertised to. Same thing goes for a Tag Heuer watch. The owner can take comfort that the mechanism is rock solid and there are actual quality materials used in making it. It's not just a rumour started by some marketing prick selling science fiction.Do you see the difference? The people selling expensive stuff to rich people actually worked hard for it, developing real products that can deliver.Basically you are promoting the idea that it's ok to lie, cheat, infatuate and take part into deluding rich people justified by the idea that they are rich and they spend money anyway on "stupid things" that you can't understand?Mind you, if you're comparing a 5 million dollar painting to Blue Meanies on a wall then I rest my case

author: bob808
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2014, 10:44:18 am
content: Oh snap!I just read The Teleportation Tweak.http://www.machinadynamica.com/machina60.htmI guess brain damage is the only thing that comes into my mind. So, basically for 60 bucks you get a phone call (?) and when you pick it up, you can hear some funny clicks for 20 seconds. That's "the tweak".So, after scanning through the article I am left with the impression that for 60 bucks I get that phone call that:- The Teleportation Tweak will also improve any video system in your house, including plasma, LED, and high end projection systems -- better contrast, color saturation, color fidelity and definition.- You will find that the effects of The Teleportation Tweak are instantaneous and that the improvement to sound quality is immediately audible. In fact, if the system is playing at the time of the telephone call, you will be able to hear the improvement taking place while The Teleportation Tweak is being performed. You will find The Teleportation Tweak excels in 3-dimensionality, lushness, inner detail and air. The picture quality of any video system in the house will also be improved -- better contrast and integrity of color and blacker black. You will especially notice better skin tones, saturation of colors, shininess of surfaces, textures of fabrics, etc.?

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2014, 11:18:34 am
content: Quote from: bob808 on October 04, 2014, 10:35:52 amFirst you don't see me.Second you are assuming and making an Ass of U and Me.Third what makes you think I have no morals about money or people.Fourth, Tell me how much you earned last year and where your expenses went and compare them with a poor countryman (of your own country) living on the slumps. Then compare it with 2nd or 3rd world countries.While you are at it appraise how much you have on electronics right now.Probably what you waste a year can keep 10 people alive, maybe more or maybe less, but even if it's just one quarter or one person (meaning that 4 people on your income/waste bracket could save one single person, does it make you society burden easier?Let's put it this way, you ask for hard proof. I ask the same, you'll get it and I'll be charged for it

author: bob808
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2014, 11:56:29 am
content: I live in a second world countryLast year 90% of my hard earned money went on gas, electricity bills, food, some coffee and smokes. I had a budget of about 50$ monthly to get some electronic related stuff. I am a Linux/Networking engineer and the only "opulence" that I own is an Ipad mini that I have from work, so I am able to respond quickly to remote issues. Electronics is just a passion that I'm pursuing, although it's expensive for me.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2014, 12:02:59 pm
content: QuoteIt is irrelevant until and unless it substantiates the two assertions of such products are sold under "completely false pretences" and their performance cannot be achieved.QuoteMorality is what civilized people use to constrain their own behaviors, not other people's behaviors. While I don't do anything I consider immoral, you are free to do any and all that I consider immoral.It is only immoral if you attempt to nullify two free persons' transactions on the basis of your own morality.

author: nitro2k01
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2014, 12:54:07 pm
content: Quote from: dannyf on October 04, 2014, 12:02:59 pmYou're hung up on that expression originally posted by Hero999 two pages ago. I'm presenting a different hypothesis, that these people (or their lawyers) are generally smart enough to realize that they'll get busted fast if they commit outright fraud, so instead they're selling products with no tangible effect, and make no tangible promises. A fool and their money...Quote from: dannyf on October 04, 2014, 12:02:59 pmI suspect you're either involved in this "industry" yourself, a hardcore libertarian, or both. I can see you glorifying the exploits the Church of Scientology and similar organizations. It's just a bunch of people giving money voluntarily to an abusive cult. Nothing to see here. Move along.I can even see you not liking consumer protection laws. If someone knowingly sold me milk that is infected with salmonella, (without telling me) there's nothing immoral about that. After all, the transaction was voluntary at the time, and the person never promised that the milkwouldn'tbe infected.(Edit: And no, I don't want to ban these products from being sold, but that doesn't stop me from calling a spade a spade. The buyers are fools, and the sellers are immoral charlatans.)

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2014, 05:59:19 pm
content: Quote from: dannyf on October 04, 2014, 12:21:04 amWhat, are you joking? You really need it to be pointed out to you?In a bid to make money, they make:False claims about stupid cable stands improving the sound quality.QuoteA false assertion that it's necessary to elevate ones cables off the floor.Quotehttp://www.oregondv.com/CableElevators.htmFraud!False pretences: invent a problem which doesn't exist, in order to make money!Quotehttp://www.machinadynamica.com/machina51.htmFraud!And this one really does take the piss, not only do they claim their product improves the resolution of ones audio equipment but it also increases the horsepower of a car's engine.Quotehttp://www.shakti-innovations.com/audiovideo.htmFraud!These people shouldn't be allowed to get away with this.It reminds me of the fake bomb detectors but at least lives aren't at risk, so it's not dangerous but it's still fraud.

author: Syntax_Error
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2014, 06:35:21 pm
content: Guys, go back and read this thread again, and compare it to other similar threads. dannyf is playing rope-a-dope with you. It's the same all over the place: put you on the defensive by asking base questions, and muddy the waters with assertions that you can't "really" know this or that, frequently referencing touchy feely BS like morality, perception, values, yadda yadda. By keeping you on the defensive, he never has to satisfy the same burden of proof he thrusts your direction. Basically, he's controlling the conversation and making you play fetch.Now I will have to "prove" each of these statements, with references, in similar fashion, I'm sure.But, I won't.Reread your own thread and see if you can figure it out.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2014, 07:00:19 pm
content: QuoteLike I said to the other dude/dudess: calm down. No reason to get too excited about trivial things like this.Plus, a cooler head helps you think logically.QuoteWhich part of it qualifies as "false pretences": inventing a problem that doesn't exist? or "in order to make money"? or both? or neither?QuoteLet's take the above statement for example. Which part(s) of the above statement doesn't exist / "in order to make money"? or both / or neither?

author: Richard Crowley
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2014, 07:03:23 pm
content: QuoteI don't see any option to un-subscribe from this thread?

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2014, 07:06:03 pm
content: I love those high end cables, I have some I got recently, (for free as they were 'upgraded') so stripped them to the component wiring and made some nice PTFE coated test leads with 4mm plugs at both ends, for use on the power supply and for general use. 2 colours, white and blue, so I can choose the cable according to mood, and see if it has any difference in the measurements.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2014, 07:40:27 pm
content: QuoteIt is very easy to show that they are different with equipment;It is very difficult to show that they are different with human hearing.

author: bob808
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2014, 07:43:04 pm
content: You're just trolling now. I won't follow this thread anymore.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2014, 07:50:03 pm
content: Only thing consistent is longer leads have a higher voltage drop. Colour does not seem to make a difference, even the smoke is the same acrid smell and has the same eye watering ability.

author: Excavatoree
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2014, 08:22:06 pm
content: Quote from: SeanB on October 04, 2014, 07:50:03 pmI've noticed that. It didn't take any expensive equipment, either.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2014, 10:42:14 pm
content: I've just found this thread about people who admit to being ripped off by these charlatans. I think part of the problem is some people feel too embarrassed to have fallen for a scam.http://hddaudio.net/viewtopic.php?id=417

author: timb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2014, 11:19:14 pm
content: @dannyf You are seriously the worst troll ever. You're so transparent. Go back to Reddit or wherever the hell you came from.Sent from my Smartphone

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 05, 2014, 12:38:15 am
content: QuoteSo, we should trust their hearing / judgment when they said they didn't hear things, but not their hearing / judgment when they said they did hear things?Sounds a little selective to me.

author: nitro2k01
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 05, 2014, 02:21:42 am
content: Quote from: dannyf on October 04, 2014, 07:00:19 pmNormally, the burden of proof is on the one making a claim. Instead, the standard you're using is that the person making a claim is right until proven wrong.This is also a common tactic used by religious people. (But you can't PROVE that god doesn't exist!)This guy has not at all demonstrated that the problem exists. Zip. Nada. He could have made two recordings of a CD with and without his gunk on the CD and compared the waveforms. He could have opened up a drive compartment and demonstrated that the inside of the drive compartment reflects IR light instead of absorbing it thus making at least some claim of plausibility, even if not outright proving the point. (Of course, the inside of the compartment is indeed likely black even to near IR, so this product is a moot point anyway.)As it is now, they're making no claims of an actual problem, and no claims that the product will actually improve the audio. Ie, they're selling a product with no effect demonstrated on the audio. When people here have mentioned the Blue Meanies communicating with the mind through mind matter interaction, the pebble bags for putting on cables, and Shakti stones that are claimed to increase the horsepowers of a car (!) you promptly ignore them. You seem to like this particular product, though, the CD gunk. It's perfect for your argument because it offers a sort of "plausible deniability". Since all that is claimed is that it will block IR, not improve the sound, you can keep beating the "false pretence" dead horse. See, no false pretence, eh, eh! The challenge I have for you, dannyf, is to explain, given a typical CD player, by what mechanism this product will have any effect whatsoever on the signal coming out on the back of the CD player. You won't be able to, of course, because the only positive claim you can make about the product is to keep saying that it's technically not a fraud, since no false claims were made.

author: nitro2k01
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 05, 2014, 02:23:04 am
content: Quote from: dannyf on October 05, 2014, 12:38:15 amThe only selection being made there is that one can be demonstrated in a double blind test and the other one can't.

author: mrflibble
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 05, 2014, 03:00:36 am
content: Quote from: nitro2k01 on October 05, 2014, 02:21:42 amIt's also a common tactic used by trolls on them interwebs. Up to you to decide if you consider dannyf a worthwhile debating partner, or a waste of time.

author: sunnyhighway
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 05, 2014, 09:14:25 am
content: Some of their claims do seem to hold water.QuoteRemember: beauty is in the eye of the beholder.QuoteI can see some benefit in the cables not lying flat on the floor while cleaning with a vacuum cleaner.Personally I would use some of these as they do a much better job on theelevating your cablesandappealing to the eyepart.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 05, 2014, 10:43:41 am
content: Quote from: sunnyhighway on October 05, 2014, 09:14:25 amYes, I have no problem with them selling such products because they believe they look good or as a means of cable management, as long as they're honest about the fact it's all their product does and don't make any false claims about it improving the signal quality or fidelity.

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 05, 2014, 11:40:56 pm
content: Quote from: dannyf on October 04, 2014, 12:18:03 amThe above statement is untrue and misrepresents the scientific method. First of all, a view, observation and a theory are all very different things. A view isn't a scientific concept at all. An observation is something noted during an experiment. And a theory is a well established concept that is backed up by significant experimental data. These shysters selling snake oil do not have observations or theories. They may have "views", but that is another word for opinion. And discounting an opinion because it doesn't agree with current scientific understand is very much what science is all about.Regarding the "Dark Matter" stuff. The creators of the product make multiple claims. Among them:"address the problem in CD playback produced by invisible, infrared scattered laser light inside the transport compartment"They claim a problem exists. Yet they have not demonstrated what that problem is or how it manifests.The next claim "absorbs background scattered infrared light that could otherwise make its way into the photodetector as noise". This claim is easily testable.They also claim " The reason background scattered light, whether visible red or infrared, degrades the sound is because some of the scattered light makes its way into the photodetector where it is misinterpreted as real signal". This too is testable.They also claim "Coloring CDs improves the sound because colors, especially green and blue-green (red's complement) affect the visible red color portion of the scattered laser light". This is patently false.As someone mentioned previously, the person making a positive claim has the burden of proof. Stating "well, can you prove it's not true?" is an argument from ignorance, and a logical fallacy. A negative can't be proven, but even lack of evidence against a claim does not support the claim being true. It's the same as a religious zealot saying "how do you know faith healing doesn't work? Can you prove it?" - as if lack of proof against it proves that it's true.

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 05, 2014, 11:50:40 pm
content: Quote from: dannyf on October 04, 2014, 12:02:59 pmI remember sitting outside a court room years ago, waiting for my hearing to try to get out of a speeding ticket I had received. There were a lot of people there waiting for same. All were chatting among each other, and there were lots of people coming up with arguments they felt would hold water because they could not be absolutely debunked. Like... "how does the cop KNOW that he got me and not the car next to me on the radar?" or "how does he KNOW I was going 75 when he paced me and not 74, or 76... or 65?". All of these people quickly realized that their circuitous logic did them no good when they learned the standard was not "absolute irrefutable proof" but "preponderence of evidence".The products sold make claims that are unsubstantiated. I am no expert on consumer law, but I believe doing so is illegal. Certainly the FDA and other consumer protection agencies often go after companies doing same for weight loss pills and the like. This is no different.QuoteThat is untrue.Is it immoral to intervene between a man paying for sex from a 13 year old? Is is immoral to stop a shyster selling vinyl siding to the elderly at a 500% markup using fraudulent sales techniques? Selling these products falls into the same category. It is not an honest transaction because the seller has misrepresented what the product does, therefore the buyer is being lured into the sale under false pretenses.It's no different than selling iPad boxes with LED keychain lights inside. You say "Hey I got some really cool electronics for sale cheap!". Show them the box... when they say "wow, an iPad for only $200?" and you reply "that's what is says right there on the box!". An immoral person can claim they haven't lied, but it's still fraud because technicalities don't matter when it comes to law.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 06, 2014, 07:51:24 am
content: Here's a new one. I mean, I've read people being this deluded on the internet, but never thought one of my own friends would believe the marketing hype!Just yesterday a friend of mine (who is normally quite intelligent) showed me a power cable for one of his high-end amps. It was about 80cm long, featured a standard 10 amp Clipsal plug on one end and IEC on the other. The cable was about 1cm in diameter, I mean huge compared to your regular appliance lead. I questioned him about it as it was pretty bulky and stiff.His explanation was that it provides "cleaner" power to the amp, furthermore, high-end amps really benefit from this "cleaner" power.Honestly? Who comes up with this stuff? They must be the worlds biggest douche bags. I mean, I get that it might have some extra shielding to protect adjacent cables (audio leads?) from AC noise (...or something... I'm really reaching here...) but seriously?I didn't dare ask how much it cost (I suspect it was three figures), I was too busy trying not to laugh out loud.

author: VK5RC
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 06, 2014, 10:59:42 am
content: The best cons are ones with a grain of truth; when I transmit on the 7MHz amateur radio band, my sensor lights flicker on and off. My emissions meet ACMA guidelines for power levels, spurii and harmonics. I suspect the wiring acting as an antenna and the sensor light not being resistant to RF.I have heard quite a few amplifiers can be quite sensitive to RF going back up the speaker cable, more so than going in via the mains.@n45048 I suspect your friend would have been better off with a good IEC socket with RF filter that can be purchased for low 2 figures.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2014, 12:47:32 pm
content: Quote from: VK5RC on October 06, 2014, 10:59:42 amThe modern digital ones will have a LC filter right at the output, more for keeping EMI from going out rather than coming in. The joke is now on the misguided audiofools who are under the impression that digital can't be good...

author: timb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2014, 11:03:12 pm
content: The best ones are the guys who buy three figure USB cables and rave about how much better the sound is. I've tried arguing with a few, but it's pointless.I'm like, USB is a balanced digital interface that runs orders of magnitude faster than the 44kHz signal being output from the DAC.Sent from my Smartphone

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2014, 05:11:03 pm
content: I met yesterday with an audiophile in a social situation. He told me that he can easily distinguish by listening only if his system has a simple power cable or a $30 one. I offered him to make a blind experiment. His concern was that me changing power cables in his system will damage it, but eventually he agreed, kind of. If he will pass I will be very impressed but if he will fail I will feel sorry for bursting his bubble.

author: Excavatoree
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2014, 06:16:00 pm
content: For the sake of argument, suppose that the expensive power cables really do have better characteristics that do matter. How can that last 1-3 meters of optimal cable overcome the negative effects of the several more meters of house wiring, one's distribution panel, one's power meter, the utility lines to the transformer, the transformer itself, and the miles of distribution lines?Or, do i need to contract with a local wire company to surround ordinary NM-12G Cable with some exotic sounding material and charge hundreds of dollars per meter for it? I could get receptacles and circuit breakers cry-treated and sell them for hundreds. The only problem would be looking at myself to shave. I have seen an E-bay seller selling a $1 US receptacle for $100 US because it has been cooled for a bit. Seems like easy money.I'll become a dealer for these:http://www.fullscaleav.com/transparenator.html

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2014, 06:32:31 pm
content: Plug it into a quality UPS.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2014, 06:41:52 pm
content: Preferably a dual conversion ferroresonant one, with a ultra low distortion sinewave output.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 13, 2014, 08:07:37 am
content: I have to say, I was disappointed in 2GB earlier in the week (no political puns please).One of the less popular presenters along with a "technology expert" talked about expensive HDMI cables and the differences when compared to cheaper ones. But when they invited the CEO of Monster Cables to talk about their product I realised it was basically a sales pitch for Monster's overpriced cables.Their words were chosen very carefully but many leading questions were asked, for example:So why should consumers choose a Monster HDMI cable over a cheap $2.50 job?They also allegedly had a $500,000 machine which would simply test the Bit Error Rate over different HDMI leads.

author: TerraHertz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2014, 12:48:52 pm
content: Not sure it's worth necromancing the thread for this. Hopefully it's amusing.An ebay .au listing for a $140 "MS Audio OCC Single Crystal Copper Power Cord Australia Type" aka IEC mains cord. Item # 301348645908I couldn't make this shit up. But they can:QuoteI like how they quote '30A' never mind that it's a 10A plug."Aluminum plated copper braid" - Really?"good solution to trun your system" It's their typo, not mine. A final touch of comedy in this farce.

author: Alex Eisenhut
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 26, 2014, 04:04:00 am
content: Quote from: Halon on October 06, 2014, 07:51:24 amJust ask him how the middle 12 feet of wire has an effect in the many hundreds of feet in the loop of wires and terminals between his power transformer and the pig pole outside his house...

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 27, 2014, 05:49:55 am
content: Quote from: Alex Eisenhut on October 26, 2014, 04:04:00 amOh I did. Didn't really get an answer nor did I expect one. It's the case with these people (as many have mentioned in the past) you can even show them tested, verifiable proof that it's all bollocks but they refuse to take it on-board.

author: TMM
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 27, 2014, 11:30:36 am
content: Quote from: Halon on October 27, 2014, 05:49:55 amThat's because after spending their hard earned on their ultra-sq-unobtainium-impregnated-silver cable of course they will hear an improvement, otherwise they would be a fool. No one likes being a fool. It's more convenient for them to convince themselves that they can hear an improvement and there must be a parameter that cannot be scientifically measured, than to accept that they have been ripped off.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 27, 2014, 11:37:13 am
content: Quote from: TMM on October 27, 2014, 11:30:36 amVery true. The only way I'll ever know if I got through to him is if one day he comes to me and asks for my advice.

author: TerraHertz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2014, 03:32:28 pm
content: Quote from: TMM on October 27, 2014, 11:30:36 amIt's called Confirmation Bias.It would be an interesting exercise to somehow get an audiofool to read through the Wiki list of cognitive biases.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cognitive_biasesAudiofoolery seems to combine multiples of these. I wonder if such people could recognize their own thinking defects in this list? I somehow doubt it.Btw, someone I know recently mentioned they have one old WE 300B triode valve, and some audiofool is after them to sell it for... wait for it... $1500. A small, old valve. Because it's 'special'.This amazing information led me to here:http://yklee118.blogspot.com.au/2012/08/does-using-western-electric-vacuum.html?view=classicThat whole web site is dedicated to such stupidity.Somewhere I have some big boxes of old valves. Maybe I should dig them out and see if there are any sought after by audiofools.

author: joshhunsaker
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2014, 04:10:48 pm
content: Quote from: TerraHertz on October 30, 2014, 03:32:28 pmThe stupid thing would be waiting to sell them. You're sitting on a gold-mine if you've got original WE300b tubes in anywhere near decent condition...

author: Phaedrus
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2014, 06:28:46 pm
content: Quote from: joshhunsaker on October 30, 2014, 04:10:48 pmThe smartest thing he could do is wait to sell them. Tubes break and go bad, so the supply dwindles over time. As long as it stays a sought after item in the audiophool world the value can only go up.Also,QuoteOw, my brain

author: TerraHertz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2014, 02:17:59 am
content: Quote from: Phaedrus on October 30, 2014, 06:28:46 pmIndeed.I bet these people wouldn't recognize Markov chain software generated techno-gibberish for what it is. So, expose the learning algorithm to a selection of audiophool sites, then start posting machine-generated adverts for imaginary products at hard to imagine prices.Wonder if it might be possible to get them to buy 'emperor's new clothes' grade items, that are so superior they are invisible?