Foxconn bait and switch - broken promises or unsustainable from start? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: edy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2019, 07:35:06 pm
content: Foxconn got some fairly nice government subsidies to help them create a plant in Wisconsin. They also received $4 billion in tax credits. I assume that means they don't pay taxes on the first $4 billion they make? Anyways, seems like they scaled down the project considerably. Short term? Long term? Who knows. Is this any surprise?Does it even make sense to have a plant there, will the cost of manufacturing be so much more that it is essentially cancelled out by the tax credit? Will it mean products manufactured there will cost more (and that cost be passed down) to consumers, or are they using the subsidies to subsidize the cost of the goods? Basically a make-work project for people local to Wisconsin for political reasons?Not to turn this thread into a political discussion, what is really the point of artificially bolstering assembly-line blue-collar manufacturing in the region when it is much cheaper to employ Chinese labor overseas? Will this be environmentally friendly or did we throw that out as well? Thoughts?https://mashable.com/article/foxconn-wisconsin-factory-plans-canceled/https://www.bbc.com/news/business-47062142https://www.cultofmac.com/572219/foxconn-scales-back-us-plant/https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/jan/31/what-happened-to-foxconns-plan-to-build-a-10bn-factory-in-wisconsin

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2019, 07:47:03 pm
content: It's unfortunate the article opens with a phrase which shows their party alignment right from the start. The American public would be much better served with news being offered neutrally.That being said, these things seem to be socialist welfare in a capitalist disguise. Rather than support the people directly through welfare, companies and jobs are artificially kept, in which people can then perform subsidised jobs. It seems inevitable those companies draw the long straw and walk away with a large part of the money involved. It means the system will be woefully inefficient compared to more direct support of the same workers. It really is a problem in the US that anything viewed as socialist or welfare is taboo and political suicide, leading to convoluted and costly alternatives like these.

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2019, 09:13:18 pm
content: Random thoughts.The job of politicians is to improve their own lives and not anybody else's. To that end they sell whatever smoke and mirrors people will most easily buy and generally that means selling deliberate lies or ignorant falsehoods. Every slogan represents a crazy witch hunt. Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American public. (Of course, this is true of any country.)People want jobs and politicians promise jobs. It does not matter whether they can deliver, which we know that if they deliver anything it will be at the expense of the general public.No country needs more "jobs" but every country needs more productivity. We do not need jobs. That is what people just do not understand. Communist countries had a lot of make-work jobs and that did not make them richer, it only spread around the poverty.There is the story told about Milton Friedman who was visiting some country and saw they were digging a canal with shovels instead of modern machinery. When he asked why he was told it was "a government job creation program" to which he replied: "Oh, I thought this was about building a canal but if it is about creating jobs why don't you give them spoons instead of shovels?".There is no merit in doing with more work what can be done with less work. What every country needs is productivity, not jobs. And that is what the general public and politicians do not understand. They want to keep things as they were in the (imaginary) good old times.We need to increase productivity and the only way is to abandon low value added jobs and embrace high value added jobs. This requires education and training.It is not possible to have an uneducated population producing high value goods and services.And if it can be done cheaper abroad then it is best to do it abroad and dedicate our efforts to something more productive. Subsidies and protectionism never made a country rich, on the contrary, countries became rich by being productive and competing and exporting.Today Germany is in the enviable position of being a net exporter to China. It is not by putting hurdles to the importation of Chinese crap, it is by selling China high value goods and services. The objective is not to "create jobs" but to "create value".

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2019, 10:18:21 pm
content: Soldar, what about demand? If you can have one automated factory the whole Earth is not that large a market for some specialized kinds of products. It may be possible to saturate the entire planets demand for one specific product with one automated factory.Suppose that new factory with its hundred workers replaces one thousand old factories, each of which employed a thousand workers. But since jobs are in such short supply the workers at the new factory, even though highly skilled work for less than they did before. After all they and their families need to eat.Now, who is going to buy all the stuff they make?See the problem?Of course both of us in our own way is right.We also have to think about morale and quality of life, and the psychology and rewards of work. People enjoy doing a job well, and pushing the envelope of what can be done. That should count for more than it does under the "Global Value Chains" system thats being forced on companies today.Under it, the most highly skilled workers are just as much in danger of being laid off as promoted, in a rush to shave pennies off of prices and replace expensive human workers with automation wherever the owners can.

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2019, 10:22:50 pm
content: I drive by the site, not directly but on the highway, from time to time.Hopefully it fizzles out, and us Wisconsinites aren't stuck with a retardedly huge bill for this boondoggle.Tim

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2019, 10:24:43 pm
content: Electronics moving to Asia, for semiconductors, displays, PCB, manufacturing, supply chain etc.It's like the rainforest. Once you cut it down, you can't grow it back again due to the winds and rain.You can't wave a magic wand and expect high-tech to return to America or the UK.I'm reminded of Apple trying to build Mac Pro in Texas and a screw shortage prevented it:A Tiny Screw Shows Why iPhones Won’t Be ‘Assembled in U.S.A.'Once the infrastructure crumbles, it takes more than a politician making one move to get it back.

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2019, 10:32:53 pm
content: Quote from: cdev on January 31, 2019, 10:18:21 pmNo. Where is the problem?The industrial revolution put 95% of agricultural workers out of work. It also put out of work 99.9% of many trades related to transportation using animals and many other trades that became obsolete.The computer revolution put 95% of accountants out of work.Again, we need to create value, not jobs. If that value can be created by fewer people that means it releases people to be productive in other things.If fewer workers can produce more clothes that just means the price of clothing falls and part of the workforce is now free to be productive in other fields. Just like agricultural workers went to work in industry and then in computers, biotechnology, etc.Better than have 98% of the people still tilling the land just to survive.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2019, 10:41:12 pm
content: They should do whatever it takes to end the race to the bottom. One thing that would make sense is to shorten working hours and give workers lots more vacation time. Then they would be more productive while they were working. Another thing we're going to have to do is accept that many people will never be good enough at whatever they do to be needed at the jobs that exist. It wont make sense for them to do any kinds of make work jobs because they will all be easier and safer to do with machines.Unless we are willing to toss the whole global value chains system, basically only a fairly modest number of very high skill professionals (and likely not the kind that are available everywhere, like engineers) in countries like the US, UK and AU will be the kinds of workers that global companies are supposed to hire in them.The vast majority of workers will just not be needed. Purchasing power, and demand will fall, globally, and their people may have to move elsewhere because they will remain expensive places to live.Its hard to say. I think there will be a lot of downward pressure on wages, but I don't think even free workers could compete for very long with the incredible advances that automation is bringing over the next few years.This is why governments are disinvesting in every possible way. They don't want the 'moral hazard' of responsibility for any of this.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2019, 10:51:43 pm
content: Recently I've been reading a lot about this and the problem is actually that virtually everything we do seems to be causing net reductions in jobs at this point.

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2019, 10:59:39 pm
content: The "race to the bottom" is properly called "competition" and it is a good thing for everyone. You do not "deserve", you are not "entitled", to anything by virtue of being born here or there and, whether you like it or not, protectionism will not shield you from world-wide competition. And it is a good thing too.We are only entitled to offer our services on equal terms. If a Chinese guy offers me better value for my money why should I not take his offer? Does he not have the same right to compete? Does he not have a family to feed?China is carrying out a miracle. Millions have been lifted out of poverty, it is growing a huge middle class and inequality is decreasing (which cannot be said about most western countries). Why should I work against that?Anyone and everyone should be free and able to offer their products and services on equal terms.In any case, whatever we say or think does not matter. Protectionism never saved any country and it certainly won't help America. If you want to have a better life you need to be more productive, more competitive. Again, ask Germany.America is ahead in many fields and doing well in them but there is a class with lower or no education who expects to be shielded from competition. Sorry but there is no way you are going to make 40K/year flipping burgers. No way.Politicians tell people what people want to hear: It is the Mexicans and the Chinese who are to blame for your problems and I will protect you from them.No, it is not them who are to blame and your crooked and stupid politicians cannot shield you from reality anyway.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2019, 11:09:35 pm
content: ***Playing the devils advocate****"Why would a business have people in the US turning hamburgers over when there are machines that do that, or under a worst case scenario, you could use telepresence to have somebody in Bangladesh at the other end of a webcam do it?"Since the article is about Foxconn..http://tech.qq.com/a/20111212/000014.htm(Foxconn owner promises one million robots to make iphones, soon)"Whomever is the cheapest, best hamburger flipper, man or machine, should get the job""Lets have a competition!"http://incsoc.net/world_competition_day.htmFoxconn:https://qz.com/1312079/iphone-maker-foxconn-is-churning-out-foxbots-to-replace-its-human-workers/Quote----------Quote from: soldar on January 31, 2019, 10:59:39 pmNo plans have changed.Trump is an reality show actor.The joke is on us, as in "You're fired, America!"Africa is where they want to build their new factories, call centers, and perhaps soon data centers, etc. too.Africa is open for business!

author: langwadt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2019, 11:46:00 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on January 31, 2019, 07:47:03 pmafaikt the US does most of it's "socialist welfare" involving stuff that is in camouflage, having people do military stuff is easier to "sell" than welfare. Explains their massive military budget compared to the rest of the world

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2019, 11:52:15 pm
content: Quote from: langwadt on January 31, 2019, 11:46:00 pmWho told you that!?

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2019, 11:58:34 pm
content: Quote from: cdev on January 31, 2019, 11:52:15 pmIt's fairly obvious. People who don't have many other options often go into the military. Other people too, don't get me wrong.

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2019, 11:59:18 pm
content: Quote from: soldar on January 31, 2019, 09:13:18 pmFull employment makes for a happy population, mass unemployment makes for war.There's more at stake than the current account balance.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2019, 12:01:26 am
content: Quote from: Marco on January 31, 2019, 11:59:18 pmFull employment leads to all kinds of trouble for employers. You need a deficit to keep things moving.

author: langwadt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2019, 12:07:47 am
content: Quote from: Marco on January 31, 2019, 11:59:18 pmit is a balancing act, full employment means companies that can't grown and inflation

author: station240
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 01, 2019, 01:18:31 am
content: Quote from: soldar on January 31, 2019, 10:32:53 pmSo what technical revolution is needed to put 95% of lawyers out of work ?Not sure about you're part of the world, but here in Australia most of our politicians are lawyers, and it shows, so many of them are useless.The problem isn't loss of jobs, its loss of customers too.People need spare money to buy products, if they don't have that due to whatever reason, they aren't customers anymore.Given this is Apple/Foxconn we are talking about, they are painting themselves into a corner where they have to keep jacking up prices to make up for less and less customers.I don't believe companies exist only to create profit, giving people work/income, and creating products people want is equally important.Big corporations just suck at creating happy customers and staff, and jobs.If our politicians had any brains, they would leave corporations to their own devices, especially the ones with lobby groups.Foxconn never needed this money to create jobs, they just needed to get out their own cheque book.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2019, 02:10:19 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on February 01, 2019, 02:06:31 amThe problem is that typically more and simple jobs are replaced by less jobs which require a higher skill level. This leaves people with a limited skill set and no ability to develop one stranded.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2019, 02:38:01 am
content: (Blueskull, you should realize that "the government" cant create "make work jobs" for unskilled people any more, as that was what developed country governments are alleged to have promised the "Global South" i.e. developing nations when the WTO was created, To sweeten the deal, services, 80% of the economy were made tradable. the poor countries could get access to those kinds of jobs via formal government procuring tender process. IF they could do them cheaper. Negotiations on this have been going on for 20 frigging years.)Supply and Demand.. how much people make is determined by it. If either change, the fair market price of their labor goes up or down, sometimes a lot.Slavery is cheap, but automation is even cheaper.So, automation has the same effect, lowering wages.Didn't some British band years ago have some album or song saying: "Homefucking is killing prostitution" Something like that!Also, procurement rules now require all government jobs to be bid out. Its cheaper to have some low bidding TNC do those jobs. Companies that just do one thing, globally. Located in countries with very little regulation or accountability. They pay their workers very little, and charge them a lot for room and board. Similar to "kafala" in the Middle East. Especially in fields like teaching, nursing, construction, etc. Workers under multi year contracts, whose permission to be present in a country depends on their jobs.Then supply and demand will then lower all wages in that field. Indigenous companies will be more expensive and so government work will go elsewhere.I think its already assumed that the changes are going to be massive.It will be a great time to be an oligarch, more profit than ever before!

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2019, 07:43:33 am
content: Quote from: cdev on February 01, 2019, 02:38:01 amYou keep repeating this. Everybody keeps repeating this without giving it a second thought. But repeating it does not make it true. History shows the exact opposite. Societies that automated became richer and societies that didn't were left behind. Today the richest societies are the most automated while the least automated are the poorest. And yet people just ignore all evidence and repeat the mantra that "automation is a threat to jobs" and that "we need to create jobs".Artificially holding certain wages high only means the rest of society is being forced to pay more than things are worth. The more protectionist a country is the more their people will have to pay for lesser quality goods and services. Again, This is what history shows. Greater well-being and standard of living do not come from protectionism, they come from greater productivity which creates wealth. Make-work does not create wealth, it creates a hidden tax.Again, do we have today millions of unemployed agricultural workers? Farriers? Buggy whip makers? Teamsters? Accountants manually adding huge columns in paper worksheets? Are they all sitting at home unemployed? Or were they released to become productive in other fields?I find it amazing how societies can hold erroneous beliefs in spite of all evidence to the contrary. In the Soviet Union economic problems were blamed on counter-revolutionaries and saboteurs and they went on like this for decades. Most people did not stop to think if there was any real evidence to support that theory. No need to think as it is easier to repeat what everybody around you is saying. Since everybody is saying it then it must be true.At one time they would burn witches and heretics at the stake and when things didn't improve they would reason it was because not enough witches and heretics were being burnt at the stake and the rate should be increased until things improved.Imagine this: a man has a fever, his body temperature is too high, so we immediately and evidently deduce that he needs to be dumped in cold water in order to lower his temperature. It is so self-evident that there is no need to even think about it. Right?That is the problem with "common sense". Most of the time it is just widespread ignorant, stupid beliefs. Everybody thinks that way because everybody else thinks that way.This is what we are doing when we subsidize inefficiency under the guise of helping "create jobs".Maduro created jobs like crazy. Lots of fake, make-work, jobs, especially for friends and family. You can look up how that worked out.Brexit was sold as protecting jobs from immigrant competition. I think it is becoming clear that things are not working out the way that simplistic view expected.The low educated and incompetent see the threat of competition where the qualified and entrepreneurs see opportunities. Countries that become protectionist are on the way to becoming stagnant backwaters. It isThe Road to Serfdom.

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2019, 05:15:13 pm
content: Quote from: edy on January 31, 2019, 07:35:06 pm[bold added]US Tax laws are kind of nutty... I do my own tax, so I had to really read that chapter the first time I came across it.Re: "I assume that means they don't pay taxes on the first $4 billion they make?"That would be the case for a "tax exemption" - the $4 billion would be exempt from taxation.Tax Crediton the other hand is far more generous. IRS pretends you have paid that amount already. If I receive a tax credit of say $10 for this year, it would be as if I dropped by the IRS office and give them $10 cash. If it turns out I owe $6 in tax only, since I already "paid" $10, I can get back $4!!! Certain tax credits has limits -- such as, if it is for a particular purpose, I may be able to get up to the amount I actually spend towards that purpose.Child care tax credit for example, even if you are an uninvited guest of the USA, just because you have a kid under a certain age, you can file and claim the child care tax credit, IRS would pretend you have paid thousands already (if I recall the number correctly, it is at least a couple of thousands per kid depending on age). All you have to do is file a tax return (no income, so no tax), by filing, you can claim the credit and get back those thousands you "already paid" back as over-payment refund.That said, I am not sure FoxConn actually got an unconditional tax credit, or if it is a tax credit at all. Many "reporters" are confused by tax credit vs tax exemption as well and they mix up the two.My usual disclaimer for these law related matters: Law is part of my name and is not my profession. So, this is my personal understanding only. This is not from a law professional with expertise in the matter.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2019, 10:43:50 pm
content: You don't understand what I am saying, also you're likely not seeing the problems here realistically.Quote from: soldar on February 01, 2019, 07:43:33 amYes, huge gains do occur, because so much labor is saved. the cost of labor is a debit, a drain on profits, under the system we use.So no longer needing employees is a gain. What do they do?"Something else" goes the mantra. People will have more free time, much more. many people will likely never get a job again because there are so many people looking there just wont be jobs for most of them. Thats what experts say. Yes, experts also say its incredibly stupid to try to hold back progress. Progress is different kinds of things, not all technological. progress is adjustment to changes. However, many kinds of adjustments are being prevented. because global capital needs certainty. All of the things which you have in Finland are off the table now for other countries. The rules changed on Jan 1, 1995.I am certainly not saying we shouldn't automate. I am actually an advocate of automation like yourself. However, its presenting the biggest challenge ever faced by humanity.I think the US should be more like the Nordic countries in having a social safety net. Right now around 150 Americans die every single day (conservative estimate) who would not die if they lived in a country like yours, that had a functional health care system where we could all afford modern HC.the girl pictured below died of a sinus infection that spread to her brain, in San Jose, CA. She was not a minority, she actually has a British sounding surname. She just was I think still in her teens, uninsured, and couldn't afford health care which is incredibly expensive if you have some emergency. Her family - like many in SV, was probably struggling, wages not having kept up with prices in that area especially.Her family has a GoFundMe page for her medical expenses.There is a 15 year difference in average lifespans in men here in the US if you break it down by income. Thats a lot. Some parts of the US have worse health care than many Third World countries do.Its because of its insanely high cost. You can imagine how much worse its going to become as the jobs currently done by large numbers of people vanish and there are so many people losing work that they are looking at a totally impossible debt situation for themselves and their families.I'm just worried about them. I'm not saying lets not automate, that would be incredibly stupid and impossible. Its totally apolitical as learning is basically a function of how much we already know. So the sum total of human knowledge is always going to grow faster and faster.So, again, don't claim I am some kind of Luddite. I am just saying that economics 101 tells us that having automation (i.e. free labor) will mean thatwages for things that automation can do become zero fairly quickly.. People will have to adjust. For many, perhaps most of humanity, they are going to need help.

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2019, 07:18:09 am
content: Well, the subject of this thread is "what is really the point of artificially bolstering assembly-line blue-collar manufacturing in the region when it is much cheaper to employ Chinese labor overseas".My answer to that is that it is a way for politicians to make a living by creating false expectations and by creating make-work jobs that are a burden on taxpayers. It is unfair and inefficient and is hindering progress and makes no sense economically.It does not make sense to subsidize "job creation programs" when the same job can be done more efficiently by other means and it does not matter whether "other means" is automation, import or any other means. We should be looking for productivity and efficiency, not for trying to live in the past.I could see very limited exceptions if it were the other way around: to encourage technological progress and productivity and take people with obsolete jobs and provide them with an education for more productive jobs. And even then many a program gets corrupted and turns to the personal gain of those managing it.But if we are talking about anything and everything under the sun then, yes, there are many things wrong in America and in the world and I will gladly give my view on specific topics but I do not believe it is useful to conflate everything in an "everything is wrong" thread and here is my solution. That is what politicians do and I am not a politician.

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2019, 08:41:13 pm
content: Quote from: soldar on February 02, 2019, 07:18:09 amI agree with you partially. But, some of these jobs are "ladders" into better jobs. If in country X all low level EE work are outsourced to other countries, how would country X develop anyone to work in high level EE?Besides direct professional experience building, a lower skill "off-profession" job would still give the employee a valued education in work ethics and an understanding of the real world. They give the employees value and dignity. They are door-ways into a better job.I recall in my college days, most of the students I know worked as house-painter, lawn-worker, restaurant jobs, manufacturing jobs, construction jobs, so on, during non-school hours to help pay for college. In my view, not only are those "cheaper done else where" jobs have value in the pure economic sense, they are critical in character-building of the citizenry giving them dignity, a way to move up, and for the younger ones, educate them to live in a real working world.

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2019, 10:17:27 pm
content: Quote from: Rick Law on February 02, 2019, 08:41:13 pmAfter thinking a bit about this I am not convinced. Civil engineers do not start out as ditch diggers. Electrical engineers do not start out in the assembly line. In fact, more and more functions are being disaggregated and you see engineering firms which only do engineering and factories who do manufacturing and assembly. And very often the high level design and engineering is in one country, often America, and the manufacturing and assembly is in another country, often in Asia. Ask Apple or others like them. So, I see no evidence that the disappearing of certain blue collar jobs, either by automation or by outsourcing, has caused a shortage of candidates for higher level jobs. I do not think that subsidizing assembly line blue collar jobs will result in more and better high level engineers.Germany and France have very good trade balance with China and it is not because they are selling them low value trinquets. They are selling engineering services, hospitals, hotels, civil works, power stations, etc. All with very high value added.I travel often to China and I have seen the building of the metro in Guangzhou over the last 20 years. 250 miles built , 260 stations, 450 trains, 9 million passenger / day as of 2018. 200 miles under construction right now and 150 more planned. You can imagine the kind of cost it involves and a very big chunk of that went to Germany.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guangzhou_MetroI have seen hospitals built and organized by French firms.I know America is making cars in China.That kind of high value jobs is what we need. If you want a high value salary you need to have a high value job. There is no way around it.

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2019, 10:53:32 pm
content: Quote from: soldar on February 02, 2019, 10:17:27 pmYou might have missed my last paragraph...Lower skill jobs made it possible for some (perhaps many) to have the resources to train for higher skill jobs. Without lower skill jobs, many would not be able to have the money for college.Even Indiana Jones (Harrison Ford) worked as a carpenter to keep himself going until he hit it big...I am sure we all don't have to look too far to find a friend/colleague who worked at a manufacturer (or a supplier to a manufacturer) to pay for life and tuition while they go to college.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2019, 11:30:18 pm
content: ??

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2019, 11:36:42 pm
content: Quote from: Rick Law on February 02, 2019, 10:53:32 pmThat is true for anybody who needs money, whether it is to save for college or to feed their children this week. They should find jobs which are paid what they are worth and not look for fake jobs subsidized by taxpayers. It is unfair to the rest of the people to subsidize certain jobs and not others. If someone is deserving of financial help from society then just help them financially and directly but don't mess with the economy and distort it.Let's subsidize steel and restrict imports. Steel becomes more expensive. Now let us subsidize car makers and other steel consumers. It is a spiral where everybody is paying higher taxes to subsidize everybody else. There is only one winner in all this and it is the politicians who collect the money in taxes and then distribute it in grants and subsidies... and a percentage sticks to their hands as it passes through. It distorts the economy in a very prejudicial way. The soviet economy was a mess because there was no free market which allowed actors to make decisions on objective value. Instead everything was intervened and controlled and distorted. That is bad.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2019, 11:59:37 pm
content: You keep saying that but you're wrong, at least here in the US, sure politicians promise the man in the moon but the fact is, its banned, there have not been these 'fake jobs subsidized by the taxpayer' in a long time, and the promises of "work for all" and "MedicareForAll" are BS, part of a campaign to confuse the US public by promising things will be expanded when they are actually being dismantled. Not just here, all around the world.So highly mobile investors wont go elsewhere.See here:This 'trilemma' is explained, highly watchable.Case in point. Green jobs are forbidden. Local sourcing is forbidden.The US won a case in the WTO in 2016 that makes it clear, local sourcing is verboten. Its not permitted to have "make work government jobs" for your own citizens any more, just to put food on their tables.Forever, there is no expiration date in WTO decisions nor are they appeal-able as India didn't appeal - as one would expect as the decision works far more in their favor than the US's.See this article- its about green jobs programs but it applies to similar programs of all kinds, in all WTO members. Disregard the Obama" both parties are actually in on this, the difference between the two is more like Coke and Pepsi than real. Good cop bad cop. Its an act.Quote from: soldar on February 02, 2019, 11:36:42 pmPublic funding of higher educationis under attack. Allformerly public servicesare now.Back in the 80s people from my generation had it much better. Young people are in permanent limbo now.'Their' jobs have all been promised away to others.Or not promised, again, its disputed.

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2019, 12:04:09 am
content: Quote from: cdev on February 02, 2019, 11:59:37 pmI am sorry then. My mistake. I thought I read in the OP "Foxconn got some fairly nice government subsidies to help them create a plant in Wisconsin". If it never happened then I am glad it never happened as I am against that type of thing.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2019, 12:08:36 am
content: That was just so they could open an (Foxconn is a big booster of) automated factory here, not necessarily create many local jobs.Thats probably a good thing, considering their reputation.Quote from: soldar on February 03, 2019, 12:04:09 amAmazon just got a 3 billion subsidy in NYC too, they offered to evict whatever neighborhoods they wanted.

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2019, 12:44:34 am
content: Quote from: cdev on February 03, 2019, 12:08:36 amWho’s “We,” Paleface?I don't care one way or another. Their court, their ball, their rules.GM sells more cars in China than in America. I guess they find it worth their while. They can always pack up and go home if they don't like it there.I believe it is a mistake for any country to resort to isolationism and protectionism but countries do stupid things all the time so nothing surprises me any more.I never dreamed I would see the day when China was for free trade and America for protectionism. Things change; sometimes for the worse.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2019, 01:02:48 am
content: Things are very different than we read in the media..Quote from: soldar on February 03, 2019, 12:44:34 amThey are not isolationists, the oligarchies are united, in manipulating the rest of us.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2019, 02:08:32 am
content: Quote from: floobydust on January 31, 2019, 10:24:43 pmAnd I'm sure the politicians will breathe a sigh of relief.

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2019, 01:03:21 pm
content: Quote from: cdev on February 03, 2019, 01:02:48 amAs my grandmother used to say, there are only two families in the world,the Haves and the Have-Nots.ETA: That is a direct quote fromDon Quixote, like many others common in the English language and which most speakers are not aware of their origin. Like the pot calling the kettle black, etc.

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2019, 09:32:35 pm
content: Quote from: soldar on February 03, 2019, 01:03:21 pmI would think, theUS vs THEMis a stronger grouping thanHAVE vs HAVE-NOT.I would bet you a dollar that when (say in WW-II) you jump into a fox hole with another occupant, you likely worry more about what uniform the other guy is wearing than how much money he got in the bank.When you cut away all the toppings and garnish, the concentric circle of closeness come into play. (In general...exceptions not withstanding...) Center of the circle being you, then the next ring being your immediate family, then the next ring being extended family, then your immediate friends, ... , then immediate neighbors, then people from your city... The closer to the center they are, the more likely the one in the center would be willing to support them or to work-with them.I believe it is merely the same thing at play here. I think we probably all are weighting the values differently because we like the outcome to benefit those closer to us than others.

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2019, 09:38:54 pm
content: “All good people agree,And all good people say,All nice people, like Us, are WeAnd every one else is They:But if you cross over the sea,Instead of over the way,You may end by (think of it!) looking on WeAs only a sort of They!”- Rudyard Kipling, Debits And Credits

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2019, 10:50:02 pm
content: "As long as people have money, does it matter what color it is?"Thats the world we're moving towards. But there will be very few jobs for anybody without a lengthy and increasingly costly level of education or inside connections.Right now people from different classes still mix in certain situations - like when a city still has public transit, or when there is good public education. But thats changing. Increasingly health care systems are segregated by class with different waiting rooms for those with HMO style health insurance and luxury, spa like facilities for the wealthy self pays.Governments aren't allowed to help the poor if whatever they do competes with a commercial entity, except in the most minimal manner possible, and that only after they literally are destitute, so as not to cause"crowd out"of for profit enterprises.Existing safety nets can remain as long as nothing changes - similar to building codes, but when things are changed they have to conform to the new rules. databases such as the OECD's STRI database now exist to tell them what they must do to avoid these international disputes being brought against them by countries claiming their domestic regulations discriminate.This is supposed to be in order to promote international trade in services.People wouldnt buy health insurance or pay to go to private universities if they could get health insurance for free or go to college for free. The trend however is away from anything that might be framed as distorting trade if some company wants to sell it that must be what people do. The market will decide who can afford what.Every measure, every domestic law can be challenged if it can be framed as a disguised barrier to trade in any respect. Since this is a very big change that impacts everything nobody knows yet what kinds of behaviors will trigger these suits, so it creates a chilling effect on all domestic regulation where only the most extreme corporate friendly policies are seen as safe.

author: edy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2019, 02:18:25 pm
content: Taxpayers seem to be getting "fleeced" over more and more by government bailing out private corporations or giving them huge incentives on our back. Whatever a big company wants to get it seems it will be able to take advantage of it because it has large political sway. This is due to the fact that multi-national corporations are free to move around relatively freely compared to people. Sure it looks bad for politicians to lose jobs under their watch, and they like to announce new jobs. But what about quality of those jobs? Or are they looking at it purely from an economical perspective... that is, a worker pays income taxes, which lines the political coffers, and keeps the population busy so they don't ask too many questions. You have a population where unemployment is too high, you have people no longer paying taxes, you have them starting to ask questions and getting other ideas in their heads. You get political instability as well. Seems there is a big incentive for government to keep companies happy, regardless of the consequences to taxpayers. I don't see any way around it. If one country says no, another country will say yes.However we have seen lately how even things like the Olympics are being shunned by cities because people are starting to realize the cost to government never gives enough of a payback. Perhaps these huge economic incentives, bailouts, tax breaks and so on will be thoroughly reviewed for the true impact they actually have long-term and people can start seeing whether it is really any benefit or just smoke and mirrors... is it really economically a benefit or simply a way to keep the populus in check and busy eating, getting fat, pre-occupied with other matters to start some kind of revolt. Then again... a revolution is a generally unpredictable and can possibly lead to even worse outcomes, outright civil war, destabilization and the costs involved far outweigh the "preventative" costs of padding a bunch of companies with billions of dollars. No easy answers.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2019, 09:09:39 pm
content: We shouldn't assume that building a factory in a country, even a large one is guaranteed to create jobs because a foreign firm that builds the factory almost certainly may be able to staff it themselves with their own workers. They may be basically entitled to be able to do that to some extent. (Say the most skilled workers they bring from home staffing their factory with 50% high skilled engineers from home.)How much do they have to pay them?I am pretty sure that the wage-parity issue has been a bone of contention for a long time. A coalition of least developed countries (LDCs) insists that these 'minimum wage' laws should not apply to them because bla bla bla payback for world trade agenda bla bla bla.. They say that their low wages are their main comparative advantage and they are entitled to use it when they set up overseas to attract and keep customers. I'm pretty sure that Amazon, being value conscious, hires lots of these firms as subcontractors in their US operations. Although historically, South Asian firms have been the largest users of these kinds of arrangements, its expected that Africa will soon become a much larger player because of their competitive wages.Shouldforeigncompanies have to pay their workers a higher wage in a country than they normally pay at home, when they are just there temporarily? Even if its much higher than their normal wage? If it is up to us to decide, yes, but what if it isnt up to us to decide, what happens then?Also, the same goes for Social Security. Suppose some large proportion of a country's most skilled workers are from elsewhere, paid very little, and by definition they are temporary service providers? is it FTA-legal for the hosting country to require they pay into a Social Security system they will likely never even use, when their own country doesn't even have one of its own?What happens when- at the same time, lots of the host country's own workers are no longer price competitive and are made redundant, so no longer can contribute to the Social Security system? I think its clear, then the Social Security system is forced by the Annex on Financial Services rules to privatize and would become a 401K managed by commercial firms, with their customary fees and rates of return.

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2019, 07:44:02 pm
content: Quote from: edy on February 04, 2019, 02:18:25 pmRE:Taxpayers seem to be getting "fleeced"...Just to cite some data points in reference to your point:Amazon's recent decision on NYC as the location of its 2nd HQ was cheered by politicians. Yet it would cost the NY tax payer over $100,000 per job in the city... The number varies depending on who is doing the math since the money is a mix of tax credit, tax breaks, and programs promised (to enhance the value of the area where they are located). Lowest cost I've seen reported by this Amazon deal is around $75,000 per job. The highest is$112,000 per job combined cost to the city and states.Google is thinking about creating an HQ in the area also. I assume so they can drink from the same fountain.But I think that fountain is running dry. NY governor in a recent News Conference. He talked about the deficit last fiscal year. He blamed it on Trump's new tax plan making "rich" people move out, but the fiscal year was before Trump's new tax plan. What's he going to do? In that same news conference, right after he blame the short fall on the "rich" leaving due to high tax, he said he is going to increase the tax to the "rich" to deal with the short fall.We get the government we deserve...-------------------------------------------According to FastCompany (the highest estimate I've seen):"... ... The costs are high, both in absolute terms and on a per-job basis, contrary to Amazon’s artful spin. In a classic example of cost-benefit apples and oranges, citing only one New York State incentive, Amazon said the sum “equates to $48,000 per job for 25,000 jobs with an average wage of over $150,000…” Of course, wages cannot be compared to tax breaks since employees pay only a small percentage of their salaries as taxes to offset the tax breaks. And the cost per job in New York is actually at least $112,000–and that is not a full accounting. ... ... ..."Full article here:https://www.fastcompany.com/90269146/the-amazon-deal-is-even-worse-than-it-looks-and-will-cost-ny-more-than-it-thinks

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2019, 12:50:24 am
content: Its complicated! Since Amazon is a web application, the longer it remains in business the more it runs itself. At least if its employees are doing their jobs right, thats it. Automating their work. See the problem?

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2019, 07:32:38 pm
content: Quote from: cdev on February 08, 2019, 12:50:24 amAmazon is more than just a web front end. It hires a huge number of people to handle their warehouses. Many outsource the warehouse and order fulfillment to Amazon - even if they are not selling on Amazon directly.Besides warehouse/fulfillment, Amazon also sell data processing/storage capabilities. Many, including the US Defense department, outsourced some or all their data center needs to Amazon. One could say, Amazon was in the cloud business before Google got in that business to do more than just email.Back to being fleeced...Coincidentally, that New York City deal is back on as "front page" news today on ABC (New York) radio. It is reporting that Amazon is considering pulling out of the NYC deal due to the backlash when this multi-billion give away became known.(So as folks reading the news wont be confused - Some news has it being Long Island City instead of New York City. Long Island City actually is an area within New York City. Long Island on the other hand is not part of New York City - it is just next to NYC.)