Man trapped inside driverless car as it spins in circles - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Homer J Simpson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 07, 2025, 11:43:08 pm
content: https://www.bbc.com/news/videos/c70e2g09ng9o

author: Analog Kid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 07, 2025, 11:56:02 pm
content: Oh yeah, the bright shining future of total technological nirvana making every aspect of our lives ever so much more glorious and fulfilling ...

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 08, 2025, 12:18:36 am
content: Still safer than jumping in a taxi or Uber in Sydney.

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 08, 2025, 12:27:37 am
content: How about both?Would a self driving taxi in Sydney spin in the opposite direction?

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 08, 2025, 12:49:03 am
content: Quote from: Analog Kid on January 07, 2025, 11:56:02 pmSure as hell of a lot safer.Quote

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 08, 2025, 12:57:16 am
content: It's much safer than putting your head in an electric chopper. That's a win.

author: Analog Kid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 08, 2025, 01:06:35 am
content: Quote from: thm_w on January 08, 2025, 12:49:03 amApples and oranges. Waymo (and whatever other self-driving cars might be out there) are a tiny percentage of the total # of cars on the road, which doesn't appear to have been adjusted for in this statement.

author: schmitt trigger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 08, 2025, 01:27:20 am
content: One doesn’t really understand the feeling of helplessness and terror, unless one has ridden a cab on Cairo.

author: Analog Kid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 08, 2025, 01:42:13 am
content: Quote from: schmitt trigger on January 08, 2025, 01:27:20 amOr being driven down the highway in Nicaragua ...

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 08, 2025, 02:09:42 am
content: Quote from: Analog Kid on January 08, 2025, 01:06:35 amNo, the 85% number is based on miles driven.The other numbers give you context, what if 85% less people died from vehicle crashes every year? Why would you be against that?

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 08, 2025, 08:03:02 am
content: Dunno, I think I'd rather see humans kill themselves or each other rather than be killed by machines.Besides, humans are such dangerous idiots, why would you be against them dying in the first place?Another matter is that those statistics are likely coming from self driving vendors, just like "we will have full self driving in two years" from another vendor. Aren't those cars spending most of their time in boring traffic jams, for example?

author: audiotubes
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 08, 2025, 08:38:11 am
content: Quote from: Homer J Simpson on January 07, 2025, 11:43:08 pmWe read worse. Years ago it was not possible to unlock the doors on the new Corvette C6 I think it was, unless you had the car key with the chip embedded in it, inserted in the steering wheel.More than one person died suffocating in the heat when he couldn't get out of his car.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 08, 2025, 11:26:19 am
content: Quote from: thm_w on January 08, 2025, 12:49:03 amPlus if your driverless car drives into a concrete wall because the software divided with zero, it's one less causality, right? So let's ban humans driving. When was the last time your taxi diver was drunk?When was the last time he was 80 year old driving a Peugeot with one headlamp missing without clue how to drive anymore?Comparing this statistics is pointless, it just proves that some people shouldn't drive, and we know that already.

author: iMo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 08, 2025, 12:34:32 pm
content: The video looks like being staged, imho..

author: schmitt trigger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 08, 2025, 05:19:35 pm
content: Quote from: iMo on January 08, 2025, 12:34:32 pmWhat makes you think that?I am only *sincerely curious.*

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 08, 2025, 10:17:47 pm
content: Quote from: tszaboo on January 08, 2025, 11:26:19 amI'm all for taking those people off the road, but its not going to happen, they will fight to the end.At a certain point self driving cars will be better than any human driver. Also predictability of other cars on the road is good, assuming they are all programmed to act similarly (which may not be a given).

author: MrMobodies
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 08, 2025, 10:36:43 pm
content: QuoteIt did take him for a good spin and just about made it in time for his flight.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 08, 2025, 11:44:36 pm
content: Quote from: iMo on January 08, 2025, 12:34:32 pmThe BBC seemed to release (via YouTube) a more detailed video of things. It seems to include an interview with the man, and more details.Maybe it doesn't look staged, after the second video, in your IMHO?

author: Lstkartagi
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2025, 12:05:23 am
content: There is an in cabin manual release lever on the floor adjacent to the door. For some reason many owners don't know about it. I think most recently a fellow and his dog died in the heat not too long ago.

author: Lstkartagi
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2025, 12:07:14 am
content: Quote from: audiotubes on January 09, 2025, 12:05:23 amThere is an in cabin manual release lever on the floor adjacent to the door. For some reason many owners don't know about it. I think most recently a fellow and his dog died in the heat not too long ago.

author: Analog Kid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2025, 12:11:23 am
content: Quote from: Lstkartagi on January 09, 2025, 12:07:14 amWell of course there would have to be such a release lever in order for the car to be sold in the world today.But it's surprising that it's not clearly marked by a yellow/black safety sticker or some such so that people would know it's there, since who actually reads their owners manual?

author: temperance
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2025, 12:23:06 am
content: What's the problem with a while loop? He was just in time to take the airplane.

author: Analog Kid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2025, 12:24:46 am
content: Quote from: temperance on January 09, 2025, 12:23:06 amYeah! And he got a free carnival ride. Exciting!They should make him pay for it.

author: wilfred
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2025, 12:57:36 am
content: Quote from: schmitt trigger on January 08, 2025, 01:27:20 amNever done that but at least you know the cab driver is in it as much as you which should motivate them to take only somewhat measured risks. You would hope. But a self driving car requires you to put your faith in some corporation that will fight tooth and nail to shift responsibility.Self driving cars are only as good (never better) as the training dataset they have. I saw a video today where Elon musk was bemoaning the cost of LIDAR sensors and why Tesla places so much faith in cameras. But if cameras aren't properly calibrated then what the front facing camera sees as an obstacle on the road another camera may see as floating above the road. Also an accident where a car slammed into an overturned truck showed the car wasn't trained to recognise overturned trucks. Ultimately the driver/passenger was killed and was warned dozens of times to take over the car. But I think a self driving car that requires a human to remain ready to take control is so utterly pointless. I would find it worse than driving myself. Talk about becoming a slave to the machine.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2025, 01:11:59 am
content: Quote from: Lstkartagi on January 09, 2025, 12:07:14 amits scary to pass out from the heat, it comes on real fast (10 seconds). It happened to me before but I managed to get out with my last bit of strength after almost blacking out after collapsing on the floor (you lose your 'legs')There is a reason why you feel strong panic if its hot and you feel confined, the instinct is correct, I think people try to fight it because their told that panic is bad, but when you get in this state you might only have a few seconds, so you damn well better try to smash your way out of the situation you are in. Of course some moron will bitch at you later for breaking something because they don't have a clue. The reason why your body panics is because you potentially have only seconds left. I think some people end up dying because they think their supposed to be a gentleman about the situation or some bullshit like that, don't worry too much, you still get dressed up nice in the coffin.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2025, 08:47:25 am
content: Quote from: thm_w on January 08, 2025, 10:17:47 pmThe issue is that we consider driverless cars like something out of the Jetsons. And judge it on it's potential, not it's realities.It's not. I'ts shitty software written by fallible human, and probably a bunch of ChatGPT enhanced interns. Remember how these tech companies cannot make their own software compatible with their own hardware? How we cannot make a simple website work properly in 2025? And you want these people in charge of your 2 ton car? Without proper regulation, laws, standards, certification agencies in place?BTW, for self driving taxies, why isn't there a big red stop button in place for the passenger?The type that you press to stop the car "right now" without any software involved?

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2025, 08:51:52 am
content: Waymo does have a stop ride button, I guess the rider did press that but the car was endlessly looking for a stop position.You cannot just have an e-stop because it's not always safe for a car to suddenly stop.I would trust my life in a Waymo far more than an Uber or other taxi.

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2025, 08:52:34 am
content: Quote from: tszaboo on January 09, 2025, 08:47:25 amHow would that even technically work without any software?Who would be liable if stopping causes an accident?

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2025, 08:59:52 am
content: Quote from: thm_w on January 08, 2025, 10:17:47 pmOnly if AI takes over and forbids us to interfere.Reality has too many corner cases to be caught in rule checks, but black box AI is not trusted enough to drive ... so there will always be a huge fragile set of rule checks, breaking all the time. Until AI takes over.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2025, 09:09:38 am
content: Quote from: tom66 on January 09, 2025, 08:51:52 amSure and in ultralight planes you cannot have a parachute because it's not always safe to jump out.Please bring better arguments.Quote from: magic on January 09, 2025, 08:52:34 amProbably (at least) the same way as the start/stop button on my car? Please don't act like this is some sort of a new thing.Trains have emergency breaks that any of the several hundred passengers can pull, and it stops, no questions asked.

author: Analog Kid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2025, 09:28:17 am
content: I still say that self-driving cars, like so many other aspects of "AI", is a solution in search of a problem.Yeah, yeah, I know how shitty lots of human drivers are. Not a compelling rebuttal in my view.Judging from what I've seen so far of "self-driving" performance, it's truly abysmal, and not likely to improve to the point where we'll all be willing to put our lives in its hands anytime soon.It's mainly a jackoff fantasy of extreme technophiles.

author: AVGresponding
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2025, 09:28:41 am
content: Quote from: tszaboo on January 09, 2025, 09:09:38 amWhat a ridiculous parallel to attempt to draw.Quote from: tszaboo on January 09, 2025, 09:09:38 amA start/stop button in a car works via logic, whether hard-coded by means of discrete logic devices, or fully software driven. It is NOT a safety switch.The communication cord in a train does NOT directly control emergency brakes; it signals an emergency situation to the driver, who activates the brakes.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2025, 09:34:03 am
content: Quote from: tszaboo on January 09, 2025, 09:09:38 amWhat, because 85% reduced accident rate isn't good enough? Humans are really, really, really shit at driving. And we have only one pair of eyes looking in one direction. In the UK, 1,500 people a year are killed in cars, and 30,000 are seriously injured (defined as permanent disability, loss of limb, or out of work >1mo). And the cyclists and pedestrians killed too (around 500 in total per year).Imagine the economic and social benefits if those could be reduced by 80% or more.So yes, I'm comfortable with early-stage bugs like this, provided that these bugs aren't safety-critical and get fixed before mass deployment.

author: Analog Kid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2025, 09:37:33 am
content: Quote from: AVGresponding on January 09, 2025, 09:28:41 amApparently that's not quite true:From Quora (not my favorite place to look for information: it's a place where people ask stupid questions and get stupid answers, but this answer looks legit):QuoteSo the emergency brake button does apply the brakes as well as alerting the "driver" (engineer), but the driver can override the brake application.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2025, 09:37:52 am
content: Quote from: AVGresponding on January 09, 2025, 09:28:41 amIt's a perfectly good argument. Your argument is omitting a safety device because it could lead to a dangerous situation.And no, trains stop, you are wrong about that. The drivers have an override, they are not the ones activating the breaks. At least in the civilized part of the world.

author: Analog Kid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2025, 09:39:25 am
content: And what's with that stupid blue text that you insist on using?

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2025, 09:58:21 am
content: What happens if the user, who has taken the self-driving taxi because they are too drunk to drive, decides to press the e-stop button at 70 mph on the motorway? That would endanger that user and other cars on the road. So a self-driving car has to build logic into that "stop" function. It's dangerous even at low speeds if other people don't expect a rapid stop or for a stopped vehicle to be in their path.Note that the test vehicles do have e-stop buttons but these are activated by a safety driver and the button cuts power to the actuator systems, so the safety driver takes over immediately. But the Waymo vehicles now operate without any driver.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2025, 10:03:53 am
content: Quote from: tom66 on January 09, 2025, 09:58:21 amOnce again, your argument is leaving out a safety device, because it might be misused.It's a very bad argument.

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2025, 12:03:27 pm
content: Quote from: tszaboo on January 09, 2025, 09:09:38 amAnd your car likely involves software. And your are responsible for any consequences because you are the driver.Meanwhile anyone without even a driving license can press the stop button in a self driving taxi and if it stops in a dangerous manner or in a dangerous place (say, a train crossing) then who is responsible for that? The customer who has no obligation to even know traffic regulations or understand the car's braking behavior? The taxi operator who has no control over anything? The car manufacturer, who is "too big to fail"?Quote from: tszaboo on January 09, 2025, 09:09:38 amTrains can stop for any reason at any time and any following train needs kilometers to brake. Crashes would be rampant if there weren't systems in place to keep trains from entering whole section of track before all earlier trains are confirmed to have left the section.There are obviously no such systems on roads.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2025, 12:15:03 pm
content: Quote from: magic on January 09, 2025, 12:03:27 pmOK, then let's look at another car, maybe that's a better example. You turn the ignition key, it stops, dead.But in the previous example you are comparing:- Automotive software, which every line is reviewed and certified- Some blob of code which is automatically generated, we don't actually understand what's going on, and we only have some heuristic evidence that it actually does what it supposed to do (called "AI").

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2025, 12:18:23 pm
content: You can't stop a self driving taxi without AI.Something has to decide where to stop, how quickly to stop, how to drive while stopping, etc. It's not the customer, there is no driver, and making those decisions under any arbitrary circumstances is not gonna be "simple, reviewed and certified".

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2025, 04:10:19 pm
content: Quote from: tszaboo on January 09, 2025, 10:03:53 amBecause misuse of that "safety" device could kill others, or even the occupant itself. An "emergency pull over" button is far more sensible - and these cars have it. It's a physical button, not an item on the touchscreen or something requiring the "app" to function.

author: audiotubes
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2025, 08:16:13 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on January 09, 2025, 09:34:03 amThat's misinformation at best. Bad drivers are shit at driving. Good drivers are not.What should be done is identify the dangerous bastards and revoke their licenses, and jail them if they continue to drive.Just because it's socially unacceptable to "spot the looney" doesn't mean it shouldn't be done.

author: John B
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2025, 09:58:37 pm
content: Quote from: coppercone2 on January 09, 2025, 01:11:59 amThe other thing with extreme heat is confusion and lack of coherent thought processes. Having a manual release on the floor sounds fine to someone not in a stressful situation, but would easily become useless to someone experiencing heat stress. I keep one of those hammers for breaking tempered glass in my car. Not so much for my windows, but for a situation where someone can't open theirs.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2025, 10:05:30 pm
content: Quote from: audiotubes on January 09, 2025, 08:16:13 pmEven good drivers cause accidents. The lowest risk drivers have an accident once every 10 years on average, which is still a lot higher than self-driving cars on a mileage-adjusted basis. And SDCs are a nascent technology: they will only get better.

author: Analog Kid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2025, 10:06:24 pm
content: Quote from: John B on January 09, 2025, 09:58:37 pmHeh; small side issue here.Before retirement I worked in a hardware store. In our automotive aisle we had those "Rescue Me!" multitools that had a hammer with a hard (carbide?) point for breaking glass, as well as a blade for cutting seatbelts.We stopped selling them. Why?Because it was well known in the shithead gang-banging "community" that these things were ideal for breaking into cars and stealing shit. Which in fact seemed to be their main purpose, not having on hand in case of an emergency.Pity, because they really could be life-savers in an emergency.

author: Analog Kid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2025, 10:08:04 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on January 09, 2025, 10:05:30 pmWell, goody for you; you're an optimist when it comes to technology.Me, I don't want my world governed by bright-eyed technophiles who have faith in every emerging and unproven technology.

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2025, 11:30:13 pm
content: Quote from: Marco on January 09, 2025, 08:59:52 amWaymo doesn't let you interfere. I don't know what their software is in terms of percent "real" AI. I don't think it matters if the performance is proven. From what I've seen with FSD, AI is more natural but also picks up on human behavior, and some bad habits, which they'd have to cut out somehow.Quote from: audiotubes on January 09, 2025, 08:16:13 pmWe've already been over that. If you got into an accident you'd fight like hell to keep your license, even though you are telling us it should be revoked."Good" drivers still get tired, distracted, get old and lose sight and reaction time. As usual the average person thinks they are a among the best drivers, they are not."According to a new survey from Arity, a data and mobility insights start-up born from Allstate,80% of drivers think their abilities are better than other road warriors.And, two-thirds rate their ability to avoid distractions as superior to other drivers."Quote from: Analog Kid on January 09, 2025, 10:08:04 pmIts not about optimism or pessimism. NHTSA has very specific requirements for automation levels and when they will allowed to be widely used:https://www.nhtsa.gov/vehicle-safety/automated-vehicles-safetyWere you also against emergency braking, electric stability control, air bags at the time they were being developed?

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2025, 11:50:41 pm
content: Quote from: magic on January 09, 2025, 08:52:34 amWell...The idea is so silly that it's hard to know where to start.

author: John B
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2025, 11:58:56 pm
content: The whole argument surrounding the statistical safety of "self driving" vs human controlled vehicles misses a fundamental point.Are you comfortable in relinquishing control of your own transportation in favour of some other entity, one which will have comparatively little accountability when it comes to the consequences that you can face.The whole self driving fad up till now has seemed like the most retarded bargain. You pay to abdicate authority over the piloting of a vehicle whilst retaining the responsibility.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2025, 12:07:37 am
content: I'd prefer to own the car, but yeah, I could really see it as being advantageous.Say I want to go out into town and have some drinks. Well, right now, I can't do that. There literally isn't a service available that would get me back, short of walking home or paying ~$100 for a human driven taxi. If I had a self-driving car then I could get into it completely pissed and it would take me home.Or maybe I'm too tired to feel like I can safely drive. But I need to get home.Or maybe my partner needs the car, but it's tied up at the office instead waiting for me to drive back. It could drive home and help her there. Would mean we wouldn't need a second car. (She could also hire a SDC taxi if one was available.)A self driving car is a car that has much higher utilisation, and a car is an appliance to make your life easier. There is no need to have a human pilot.

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2025, 01:04:21 am
content: Quote from: John B on January 09, 2025, 11:58:56 pmAre you following the subject of this thread? This is Waymo, you don't own the vehicle, you rent it. All accountability in a crash would be on Waymo the company.There are not yet any self driving cars that you can own that are this good. Though there are some with decent sensors (BYD seal has lidar + cameras), the hardware and processing power likely isn't there yet.Of course I would be comfortable relinquishing control to a better driver than myself, once we reach that state. I would gain free time and have a safer ride. Do you demand that an airplane pilot manually flies the plane for the entire flight?

author: Analog Kid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2025, 01:59:13 am
content: Quote from: thm_w on January 10, 2025, 01:04:21 amNot a good argument; the pilot (and co-pilot and flight engineer) is sitting right there, monitoring everything (well, hopefully!) and ready to intervene at a moment's notice.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2025, 09:25:19 am
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on January 09, 2025, 11:50:41 pmIt's probably going to be a standard feature.https://www.sae.org/news/press-room/2020/07/avsc-publishes-guidance-for-passenger-initiated-emergency-features-for-autonomous-vehiclesExample of such system being sold:https://www.dataspeedinc.com/emergency-control/Quote

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2025, 09:50:20 am
content: Such an e-stop button is only possible with a driver who can immediately take over, what can you not understand about this being inappropriate in a vehicle where the computer is theonlydriver?

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2025, 11:35:00 am
content: Quote from: tom66 on January 10, 2025, 09:50:20 amIt's even more necessary in a car like that.I really don't get it. Did nothing ever go wrong with your car?Are you that desperate to hand over completely your life to a machine?

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2025, 11:41:10 am
content: Quote from: tszaboo on January 10, 2025, 11:35:00 amYou are already doing it when boarding a driverless and undrivable car, at which point it's probably better to have a "stop as soon as it's safe" button than a "full power brakes right now" button.As for me, I'm not planning to use any self driving taxi until the first million customers are killed by them and the lessons learned

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2025, 11:46:29 am
content: Quote from: tszaboo on January 10, 2025, 11:35:00 amYou take that risk every day when you board a taxi, plane, bus, whatever. You assume that human is not going to make mistakes, have a stroke, be distracted or even go full psycho and slam the plane into a mountain like the Germanwings pilot did. So... yes, I'd be quite happy to ride in a self-driving car, provided it has been thoroughly tested over millions of miles of driving. And no, it is not "even more necessary" to have an e-stop button... do you have one in an Uber??

author: AVGresponding
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2025, 11:57:40 am
content: Quote from: tszaboo on January 09, 2025, 09:37:52 amNo, my argument is thatyour analogyis seriously flawed. I have madeno argumentsabout the presence or otherwise of safety devices of any kind.Quote from: tszaboo on January 09, 2025, 09:37:52 amThecomputeractivates the brakes. The communication cordrequeststhe brakes be applied. The driver has an override, and the brakes willonlybe applied if the computer does not receive the override signal in good time.This isnotthe same thing as the brakes being applied if the communication cord/lever is pulled.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2025, 12:05:24 pm
content: Trains also (usually) operate in environments that use block signalling, which prohibits other trains from entering their 'block' if they are still present. Applying the brakes in an emergency is therefore usually safe, though there are environments where it is not ideal to stop in, such as inside tunnels.The same cannot be said for cars, stopping on a highway is extremely dangerous, and even stopping suddenly on a normal road carries dangers if people are not expecting it.In a world where only SDCs exist, an e-stop button may be appropriate because that car can signal to other vehicles of its need to suddenly stop... But right now SDCs have to cope with human drivers.

author: jonovid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2025, 12:23:33 pm
content: passenger trains have emergency stop lever, elevators have emergency intercoms. escalators have red emergency stop buttons at the endsIMO a big red emergency stop button must be or should bemandatory requirementfor all self driving carsand a secondary consideration over hazard light triangle button in the vehicle.just as the emergency red link wire that can be cut so it isolates the high voltage EV battery so the vehicle is made safein an emergency car crash situation.Quoteemergency stop button should stop the vehicle immediately and activate the hazard lights, deactivate the drive mode and unlock all doors.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 10, 2025, 12:28:04 pm
content: Quote from: schmitt trigger on January 08, 2025, 01:27:20 amScariest I ever took was in Shanghai. Either the car didn't have brakes, or he didn't know how to use them.Then again, there was that time in Singapore when the cab literally drove through a tidal wave of water twice the height of the car

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2025, 12:47:18 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on January 10, 2025, 12:05:24 pmSo what if a car stops if a big red button is pressed? You will be passed drunk out on the back seat of your driverless car, saying nothing so that the police doesn't arrest you for saying something offensive. Why do you care?You will be perfectly safe there. Machines don't make mistakes according to you anyway.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2025, 12:55:28 pm
content: Quote from: tszaboo on January 10, 2025, 12:47:18 pmSo what?Let me know next time how well things go for you when you press the brakes to zero on the motorway, let's see how long you like being stopped in a live lane with traffic hurtling around you at 120 kph. Because that's exactly the kind of situation you'd create if your e-stop was just making the car suddenly stop.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2025, 12:58:09 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on January 10, 2025, 12:55:28 pmYou can do that with a regular car now.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2025, 01:00:47 pm
content: Quote from: tszaboo on January 10, 2025, 12:58:09 pmThe end goal of SDCs is to be safer than human drivers. We are trying to eliminate the risk of drunk or mentally unwell drivers causing problems, not give them more avenues for chaos.

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2025, 01:04:37 pm
content: Quote from: tszaboo on January 10, 2025, 12:58:09 pmA regular car doesn't force you to stop like in idiot in case of emergency.While you advocate for drivereless cars to unquestionably stop like an idiot, because AI-phobia and you don't trust software to stop safely when the red button is pressed.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2025, 01:14:16 pm
content: Quote from: magic on January 10, 2025, 01:04:37 pmYou can have two kinds of stop button.No, I don't trust AI blob, that nobody understands how it works. There is regular reviewed and certified software to stop things. But no, let's hand over all control.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2025, 01:18:08 pm
content: Waymo (the only operating driverless taxi company taking customers) isn't an "AI blob". Their cars are controlled by human-written software. The only AI is some edge NN processing for LiDAR and camera data, but decisions aren't made exclusively on one set of data and those models are robustly tested.

author: jonovid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2025, 01:20:09 pm
content: IMO a malfunctioning self driving vehicle cannot be expected to pull over to the side of the road, requiring more input.a emergency stop overrides all the self driving. a steering wheel located disengage button lets the vehicle be manually driven if the passenger is behind the wheel.so the vehicle can pull over to the side of the road. intercom button can let a back seat passenger call for help before hitting the emergency stop

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2025, 01:36:21 pm
content: Quote from: tszaboo on January 10, 2025, 01:14:16 pmSo you want to be sued by the surviving family of an American who didn't know which one to press?

author: wilfred
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2025, 02:41:41 pm
content: Quote from: jonovid on January 10, 2025, 01:20:09 pmPassengers who sit behind the wheel are generally called drivers. Surely a world of self driving cars would not need drivers and where would they even get their training? Handing the control over to a passenger who does not know how to drive is fraught.

author: jonovid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2025, 03:26:26 pm
content: Quote from: wilfred on January 10, 2025, 02:41:41 pmok your right.in a self driving taxi, one buttonthe big Red oneis for panicking. but the other one is for general inquiries. a disengage button for owner drivers that are letting the vehicle self drivebut are still behind the wheel.

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2025, 04:26:39 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on January 10, 2025, 12:07:37 amSituations like that happen all the time. Say, you get somewhere in someone else's car, but then need to get back without them. Or you walk somewhere, only to realize you have now some heavy stuff you need to get back home. You park somewhere and visit multiple stores or something and get further and further from your car. Or, you want to step out of the car and then park it (valet parking). Self-driving features would be highly useful.And I truly believe self-driving cars slowly get better, properly regulated with relevant official standards instead of wild west, and gain acceptance also from naysayers. But naysayers are right in that there has been quite strong optimism in some circles. I don't believe there is a quick revolution in the next few years.

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2025, 04:35:41 pm
content: Quote from: tszaboo on January 10, 2025, 01:14:16 pmOK, a different question. What do you trust more: AI, or a random idiot driving in an autonomous taxi right in front of you and being able to stop it rapidly at any time?

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2025, 05:06:03 pm
content: Quote from: magic on January 10, 2025, 04:35:41 pmThe whole discussion is ridiculous (usual "tszaboo entered infinite loop"). Even currently, passenger taking controls of a car (e.g. to stop it) is a criminal offense at least here, and probably in most countries. The same would obviously extend to self-driving cars, and any sensible regulation would directly forbid such "immediate e-stop" buttons for reasons presented here by many.But it appears that the fact we are discussing a taxi passenger seems to go unnoticed by tszaboo no matter how many times it's mentioned.

author: jonovid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2025, 10:47:03 pm
content: Quote from: Siwastaja on January 10, 2025, 05:06:03 pmtaxi passenger using the emergency stop button would be a criminal offense in a Non emergency. same as on a passenger trainan intercom button would be a way to get help in most unfortunate circumstances in which one finds oneself , including dead phone or taxi app not working or vehicle is going in the wrong direction.a map with large text on the front centre console screen would reassure back seat passengers in the taxi that the vehicle is functioning properly & under full control of the circumstances.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2025, 11:29:51 pm
content: Quote from: jonovid on January 10, 2025, 10:47:03 pm"This is too logical. We must remove the button. What if someone presses it?"

author: Analog Kid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2025, 11:36:41 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on January 10, 2025, 09:50:20 amWhat an utterly ridiculous statement.OK, the goddamn car has a computer, correct? After all, that's what's driving it.So let's say there's a giant "STOP" button accessible to the poor rider in case the thing goes haywire.That button will be connected to said computer.Who says that that means that when the rider pushes it, the car comes to a screeching halt with 70 MPH traffic right behind it?The goddamn COMPUTER can make a reasonable, moderate brake application, which will of course turn the brake lights on, and the car can come to a safe stop, even if it's in the middle of high-speed traffic.These things can be programmed into the car's computer, no?

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2025, 11:42:03 pm
content: Quote from: Analog Kid on January 10, 2025, 11:36:41 pmPlease go back and read the context again.Such a safe stop button DOES exist on every SDC I'm aware of... but that wasn't tszaboo's concern. They wanted a system that would immediately disengage the SDC and apply brakes, bringing the car to a halt quickly regardless of the driving context. That was what was linked to (when button is pressed, actuators for the computer are disabled.) For a highway, the car should pull over to the shoulder/emergency bay, or leave at the next junction, not stop in an active lane.

author: Analog Kid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2025, 11:55:09 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on January 10, 2025, 11:42:03 pmObviously the STOP button will be connected to the car's computer.Meaning that at least initially the computer will be handling the situation.The computer will be the one applying the brakes. OBVIOUSLY. As I'm sure @tszaboo is well aware.The computer can apply the brakes, gently, bringing the car to a halt quickly.Regardless of the driving context, yes, because at this time there exists a fault situation in which the computer's judgment may be (likely is) impaired.So the prudent thing to do, if you're in a car barreling down the road at 70 MPH towards an obstacle, is to get the fucking thing stopped ASAP.If it can also pull over to the shoulder or otherwise in a safe place, fine.But at this point it should drop out of "self-driving" mode.

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2025, 08:40:42 am
content: Quote from: Analog Kid on January 10, 2025, 11:36:41 pmThat is what tzaboo is literally saying.QuoteObviously, yes. This is what everybody else is saying.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2025, 09:58:58 am
content: Quote from: Siwastaja on January 11, 2025, 08:40:42 amYep. In which case, it's merely a "hint" from the user - the machine is "free" not to do it if it determines that it's "unsafe" to do so for long enough. If a car's software can make it spin in circles, what makes anyone think that pressing a "stop" button would be honored at all?And, there's always bugs that would make it ignore entirely, or precisely honor it at the wrong moment.I am overall baffled by how much trust some people have in software. It's like they have never used any? Autopilots in airplaines are a fallacious equivalence: they are very different from what's at the core of autonomous cars. Plane autopilots merely maintain a given set of parameters (speed, altitude, climb rate), they can also follow a route (but with much more leeway than what's allowed on the road obviously, where just 50 cm of error in some cases could lead to a catastrophe). That's it. There's no obstacle avoidance of any kind, and they'll disconnect themselves automatically at the first inconsistent conditions or readings (unless there's a severe bug). All that under the constant surveillance of one or two highly-trained pilots. Almost nothing to do with what happens in an "autonomous" car with no driver. And, they are designed under very strict processes (although even that can occasionally malfunction, see Boeing, but that's still an exception rather than the norm). I have not really seen the same level in car companies, and autonomous vehicles so far have too little regulation anyway to be able to enforce as much as we can enforce for airplanes. That can't go well.

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2025, 10:13:23 am
content: Yep. In which case, maybe you are opposed to FSD cars as such, rather than to the way their stop button works or doesn't work.If a car next to you is already driven by buggy software, adding a button to stop it immediately (and nothing more than the button) makes the car even more likely to do something dangerous.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2025, 01:22:11 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on January 11, 2025, 09:58:58 amThey really really don't get the difference between machine learning models and regular software.That leads to these pointless discussions where they assume what a car is supposed to do when you disconnect the "AI" part. Good thing that the standards and regulations are written by people who actually understand software.For example the EU regulations prevented Waymo to enter this market.

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2025, 01:35:29 pm
content: Your EU car can still stop randomly in the middle of a highway on its own initiative, and EUSSR actually requires it to be so in all new cars.editBesides, Waymo is Murrican and Murrica is Bad. As soon as Volksvagen comes up with self driving cars, it will turn out that they perfectly meet standards and regulations written by sensible EUrocrats who understand software, their cars will hit the roads, and then it will be same shitshow as in the US.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2025, 02:09:33 pm
content: Quote from: magic on January 11, 2025, 01:35:29 pmhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2025, 03:58:58 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on January 10, 2025, 12:55:28 pmThat's not what a emergency stop should do in a driverless car. It should pass control over to another emergency control system, which would stop the car safely, preferably pull over to the edge of the road and come to a gradual stop.

author: Analog Kid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2025, 07:35:10 pm
content: Quote from: Zero999 on January 11, 2025, 03:58:58 pmThat'sexactlywhat I was trying to get across in my post above.Obviouslythe STOP button press is going to have to be handled by some kind of electronic system:it's not going to be connected to a big honking solenoid that engages the brakes fully and immediately, coming to a screeching halt.It will be another computer system, separate from the "self-driving" one, that manages the emergency braking.In some situations it may be OK to stop dead on the roadway after a rapid but gradual deceleration, rather than hit an obstacle.

author: Njk
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2025, 09:12:22 pm
content: If the procedure mandates a pre-ride briefing for customers? In the US, I was usually provided with cheapest tickets for regional flights. Sometimes, when the plane was almost all set for take off, a cabin lady approached me and started small talks for some time (to make sure I'm a sane person and can understand her). Then she said that on this flight I'm not just a passenger but actually a crew member because of the very important responsibility. Since my seat is located close to the emergency exit hatch, I'll have to open it in the case of necessity. So I have to know how to do that. Then she'd indoctrinated me in that matter and checked that my understanding is correct. That approach to safety seems very reasonable.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2025, 09:35:56 pm
content: Quote from: Analog Kid on January 11, 2025, 07:35:10 pmThat's how emergency stop systems on many machines work. For example it might have conveyor belt which suddenly stopping could cause items to flip and fall off. When someone hits the emergency stop, the safety system sends the variable speed drive controlling the motor to decelerate at a controlled rate, before cutting the power. The safety controller has a separate processor to the main control system, so it will continue to function, if the main controller fails.

author: Analog Kid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2025, 09:52:00 pm
content: Quote from: Njk on January 11, 2025, 09:12:22 pmVery reasonable, yes.That just ain't gonna happen with any kind of ride in a car, self-driving or no.It would have to be mandated by a federal agency, and that's not in the cards.

author: Njk
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2025, 10:47:40 pm
content: Quote from: Analog Kid on January 11, 2025, 09:52:00 pmPerhaps it can be mandated by the driverless car operator's insurance company

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 12, 2025, 07:46:56 am
content: Quote from: Zero999 on January 11, 2025, 09:35:56 pmYeah. But apassenger stop buttonfor a self-driving car is unfortunately going to be more complicated than that. There are areas where stopping is explicitly forbidden; then there is the real-world traffic culture where if you stop in the middle of the highway you are going to cause a massive chain disaster,even ifyou slow down gradually and blink whatever amount of brake lights, because large part (possibly over 90% or so!) of human drivers are incapable of following traffic rules related to safe driving distances and society has given up trying to rectify it, instead accepting disaster every time someone stops in the middle of a busy highway, and sanctioning the one who stops even though everybody else did commit even more serious crimes. Unless we replace all cars with self-driving cars overnight, we can't just change this culture; so gradual stop in the middle of the road is out of question as well.Just like a human driver needs to, self-driving solution also needs to understand at least four different operating modes:* Sudden emergency brake,* Gradual stop,* Pull over on the side of the road and gradual stop there,* Keep on driving to find a place where one can stop or pull over,and choosing between them is not very simple. Intelligence, human or artificial, is needed for that.

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 12, 2025, 09:08:18 am
content: To put it shortly, stopping safely isn't significantly easier than driving safely, and any system for it won't be significantly smaller and more auditable.I expect every vendor to simply put this task on the main self-driving system, ever time. Sorry to disappoint

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 12, 2025, 10:19:59 am
content: Really, the best way forward with self-driving cars is to mimic human intelligenceandtake advantage of two features humans do not have but are very simple (low hanging fruits) on machines, namely (1) lack of fatigue and random erroneous actions (against the algorithm) and (2) supernatural* physical skills like having ten eyes instead of two, lidars (sensing distance with light), radars (sensing metal objects with radio frequencies), and so on.*) from human perspectiveOne thing which Tesla is clearly doing wrong IMHO is they insist on neural network processing of input data not much different from humans (camera-only). I mean, that can be made work, but it misses the opportunity of doing somethingbetterandmore easily. But it could also be just a public decoy, it is well possible Tesla is seriously working e.g. on low-cost solid state mass-manufacturable LIDAR. I would if I were Elon Musk, and I might also be quiet about it, and make all the copycats put all their money into training NNs.

author: AVGresponding
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 12, 2025, 10:55:11 am
content: Musk seems physically and psychologically incapable of keeping his mouth shut aboutanything, so unless Tesla engineers haven't told him what they're doing, I suspect not.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 12, 2025, 10:55:30 am
content: Elon and Tesla bet on camera only solution because it's cost effective, but it cost them the chance of being the first to launch a driverless robotaxi. It remains to be seen if it is possible with cameras alone with a sufficiently large safety margin - I'd want to see in the range of 5x safer per mile than a human driver before riding in one. Waymo achieve 10x, so it should be possible!

author: AVGresponding
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 12, 2025, 10:57:29 am
content: Quote from: tom66 on January 12, 2025, 10:55:30 am-cough- geofenced system -cough-

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 12, 2025, 11:07:42 am
content: Quote from: Siwastaja on January 12, 2025, 10:19:59 amI still remain a bit cynical over driverless cars and other road vehicles. No doubt it's something which will be technically possible, but whether or not it will happen is another thing. The technology has existed for a long time to fully automate railways but nearly all locomotives still have human drivers.Machine learning is generally a no go for safety critical systems, because of the black box nature of the system. It's impossible to predict what it's going to do, with a given set of inputs. I suppose it can be done if it's operating on top of another hard-code supervisory control system which prevents it from doing anything dangerous.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 12, 2025, 11:15:05 am
content: Quote from: magic on January 12, 2025, 09:08:18 amStopping is a Level 2 feature of self driving, antonymous driving is level 5. The complexity of software is orders of magnitude different.

author: NE666
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 12, 2025, 11:27:57 am
content: Quote from: Zero999 on January 12, 2025, 11:07:42 amI won't put words in your mouth but perhaps that's in no small part down to us both being in the UK?I see news images of Tesla, Google et al with their LIDAR etc. equipped experimental vehicles gliding along the wide, six-lane, concrete roads of California. And I try to mentally map that onto the, essentially upgraded cart tracks, which make up so much of the UK's road network outside of London and the major cities. Perhaps I'm loosing some plasticity of thought with age , but I cannot reconcile the hugely multivariate scenario of driving country lanes and B roads, with so very many errant possibilities, with a 'super algorithm' that can really be expected to perform at the level of a competent human driver, or better.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 12, 2025, 12:02:51 pm
content: Waymo can drive in downtown SF bay with double-parked cars and pedestrians on suicide missions, and Tesla FSD can drive onsome seriously tight roads in the Berkeley Hills, so I wouldn't rule out European-type FSD just yet.

author: jonovid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 12, 2025, 12:16:29 pm
content: IMO driverless cars should be confined zones or areas that are entirely mapped for them.avoiding getting lost in unfamiliar circumstances.

author: NE666
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 12, 2025, 12:48:43 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on January 12, 2025, 12:02:51 pmIndeed, I'll never rule it out completely. After all, they said man wouldn't fly. And there are situations and conditions under which it would probably fair much better than the average human driver, such as the congested motorways of London and the home counties.However, those examples above are still a world apart from a single-width country lane in deepest, darkest East Anglia. Add inclement weather (e.g. floods, fording water) or seasonal traffic (e.g. combine harvesters) and the equation is very different. Notice how in the Tesla FSD example, there's really no other traffic to contend with, let alone something oncoming which completely blocks the road. I just can't see fleets of Jonny Cabs being able to handle that without causing chaos, at least, not this decade.

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 12, 2025, 01:05:26 pm
content: I have witnessed a completely mentally capable (not drunk) human driver slowly (walking speed) drive directly into a ditch, missing the intersection by 10 meters, simply because of a smooth and even layer of pure, fresh white snow everywhere and overcast but still pretty bright (thin layer of clouds) day giving extremely even lighting. Human brain's vision system simply could not do the required 3D mapping from the stereo images captured by eyes because everything is evenly colored and the shape of the ditch blurred. At the time I was developing "solid state lidar" (or more accurately, 3D time-of-flight) stuff and it occurred me how funny it is that the 10€ sensor we were using wouldtriviallysee the ditch. (At the same time, Tesla released "stunning" demos of their camera system producing point clouds, and I immediately spotted how the road surface itself was completely missing from the point clouds, which is understandable since it's a smooth gray surface. But I'm sure they are doing better already.)It is also surprising how many human drivers have serious troubles staying on their own lanes on narrow roads. I mean, of course, with no upcoming traffic of course it's normal to slightly deviate from the lane if the road is narrow enough. But what surprises me time after time are those who keep driving in the middle of the road even with traffic to opposite direction. When two with the same sort of brain damage cross each other, an accident is very close.Also very common pattern seen here is completely ignoring pedestrians and cyclists. Rules about this are very clear, they are road users just like cars so you blink and overtake them as you would overtake another car, giving plenty of physical separation (something around 2 meters, exact number here is irrelevant). If you can't due to other traffic, you slow down and wait for a safe occasion. Instead, many people just drive some tens of centimeters from pedestrians and cyclists at 100km/h simply because they arenot interestedabout following the rules.So while narrow roads and difficult weather are very difficult to self-driving cars, they surely are difficult to human drivers too.Snow specifically makes it difficult to spot where the road is; human only has non-calibrated pair of eyes not "designed" for photogrammetry applications, with a pretty powerful neural network system which works surprisingly well for the crap input it gets, but sometimes fails miserably.I would definitely add multi-sourcesensor fusionto that mix, to have better chances of knowingwhere the road is(or even better, where mylaneis) in presence of a lot of snow. As a human I still have a pretty powerful brain, but I can't connect to satellites for positioning, and I cannot shoot lasers and measure distances with my eyes, and I also cannot send and receive radio waves. Not even ultrasonic like bats.

author: NE666
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 12, 2025, 01:22:15 pm
content: Quote from: Siwastaja on January 12, 2025, 01:05:26 pmThen it might surprise you to learn that this practice was (maybe still is, it's 20+ years since I last attended such instruction) actually taught on UK "Advanced Driving" courses, as part of "defensive" driving skills. The idea being that it gives you extra visibility around the next turn in the road, and extra time to react. However, clearly it has to be exercised with caution and full attention to the road - being on the wrong side of the road as you turn a sharp, blind bend isn't what it intended here and is just plain stupidity. It also means that you are further out from road junctions, should someone joining the road you are travelling on not see you in time, and start to pull out onto your side of the road. Ditto animals etc. running into the road from the edges.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 12, 2025, 01:50:21 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on January 12, 2025, 12:02:51 pmAgain, it's not about whether it's possible, but whether it'll happen on a wide scale. Having the technology is one thing. Widely adopting it is another matter. There are many things which can theoretically be automated with decades old technology, railways as I mentioned above, but in reality most still have human operators.

author: NE666
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 12, 2025, 02:51:20 pm
content: Quote from: Zero999 on January 12, 2025, 01:50:21 pmIn the UK at least, I think that's in no small part down to the powerful rail unions. I can't imagine them 'allowing' even trials of mainline full automation to be performed, not without mass industrial action brining rail travel to its knees.However, it's probably also true at this time that using trained human drivers is still cheaper than creating, proving, operating and maintaining a fully autonomous network.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 12, 2025, 04:55:58 pm
content: Quote from: NE666 on January 12, 2025, 02:51:20 pmIt's not the same the world over though. There are other countries where unions aren't such a problem.

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 12, 2025, 05:16:16 pm
content: Waymo has remote controllers to get it out of trouble, trouble which it gets itself into frequently. In urban driving just coming to a full stop till remote controllers get it unstuck is an acceptable and expected failure mode. Obviously doesn't work on the high way, which is why the only level 3 highway systems follow the duckling.These are fundamental limitations. To get rid of remote control and do better than follow the duckling requires true AI and complete trust in that AI. No more fragile rules check. AI gets to do whatever the hell it wants, because every rule needs it exceptions and those exceptions can't be predicted ahead of time.Of course when we get true AI there will be bigger changes than how we get around, it all becomes a bit moot.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 12, 2025, 05:59:31 pm
content: I think the issue with train automation is the unions for one (they would never tolerate self-driving train tests on the same lines their members use), but also the consequence of failure. In the UK, we already tolerate around 1,500 deaths per year due to cars, around 5 billion deaths per billion km. Self-driving cars might bring this down to 0.5 deaths per billion km (hypothetically). Rail deaths arecurrentlyaround 0.3 per billion km, so rail is already around 16x safer. Additionally, rail does not have the high labour cost that taxis do per passenger.It is not clear that eliminating a driver, who receives a salary of ca. £65,000 per year (in the UK), will significantly make train travel cheaper or more accessible. That train rain driver costs nominally ~£50 per hour after employer taxes and benefits; a single train ticket frequently costs around that amount, and a train can carry hundreds of passengers. Most issues with railways are down to capacity constraints rather than labour constraints, there simply isn't enough space for all of the trains we want to run, and there aren't enough conveniently-located stations to make train travel competitive with cars in most circumstances.

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 12, 2025, 06:31:18 pm
content: Train drivers can also effectively supervise ... unlike drivers of cars.The level of annoyance necessary to pay attention with Level 2 automation in cars is unmarketable. Which is why the systems are permissive and the cars keep needlessly running into things with level 2. Train drivers are paid to live with extremely annoying systems to test their attention.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 12, 2025, 10:07:30 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on January 12, 2025, 05:59:31 pmOn the other hand, the unions are a very good argument in favour of automation: no strikes, staff shortages and the ability to run 24/7. You're right that implementing it is the tricky thing. Past governments have been firm with unions, so it's not impossible.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 12, 2025, 11:06:53 pm
content: Quote from: Zero999 on January 12, 2025, 11:07:42 amThat's been my opinion for the last decade and remains so.It's not necessarily a technology problem (although plenty remains, perhaps impossibly so in some regard, e.g. AGI), it's a human problem and political problem.All it takes is one big high profile deadly crash to have full self driving banned in that state/country. Stats will not matter, human emotion rules policy.Unless they are getting a huge bribe, no politician is going to want to put their arse on the line and approve full self driving on all roads.

author: Analog Kid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2025, 12:07:41 am
content: Nice segue into my take on all this, which is that there's a huge element of unfairness in this whole self-driving mess.Which is this: self-driving is being pushed by the technophiles and technocrats, who never cease to be fascinated by the latest and greatest Shiny Object, which nowadays is Self-Driving Cars, powered, natch, by AI.Find and dandy: this is all being driven by their unshakable faith in technology.However, there are a lot of other folks out there who don't share that Panglossian view of things, and who moreover are quite skeptical of the claims made by the self-driving pushers.You could say that this is just a difference of opinion, or maybe even go further and chalk up the resistance to self-driving to ignorance of technology. However, the element of unfairness is this: whoever wins this tug-of-war is going to set the agenda for transporation for the foreseeable future. Which means that if they (the technocrats) win, those of us who have grave doubts about the wisdom of going that route will be overruled. Meaning that we will now be living in a world that we would never have chosen, if we had had that choice.Which, of course, is the way most of these decisions have always been made here on planet Earth, and will probably continue to be made.

author: Njk
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2025, 12:09:47 am
content: AFAIK, a DARPA-sponsored race of a true self-driving vehicles is an annual event somewhere in the US

author: Analog Kid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2025, 12:13:19 am
content: Quote from: Njk on January 13, 2025, 12:09:47 amOh, goody; spectators get a twofer, a race and a demolition derby!

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2025, 02:17:48 pm
content: Self-driving cars represent one part of the future of high automation and low employment. Driving a truck is the most common job in 31 out of 50 US states. The idea that ca. 5-10% of all employment could evaporate in a decade or thereabouts if the wild growth of companies like Waymo is anything to go by should be making people worry and we need to be looking at alternatives to 100% employment.I could be wrong and just like horse farriers were replaced by car mechanics, it could turn out that automation creates yet more jobs, but it is not yet obvious how that will happen, so we at least need to have some idea of what the path looks like in a post full-employment society. That might be UBI, or it might be state-owned housing (both sounding quite socialist to many), or it might be outright anti-capitalist revolution with the self-driving cars being burned in the streets so the taxi drivers still have a job.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2025, 02:36:01 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on January 13, 2025, 02:17:48 pmAgain, just because it's technically possible, it doesn't mean it'll happen.There's a far greater chance of mechanics losing their jobs, since EVs are mechanically much simpler. Lots of it is just plug a box in to diagnose faults than doing any real work.

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2025, 02:51:49 pm
content: Quote from: Zero999 on January 13, 2025, 02:36:01 pmThat happened already 40-20 years ago. Per kilometers driven, car repair and maintenance was a big thing in 1960's, 1970's, still in 80's, like what is now known as "gas station" was back then "service station", even the smaller ones employed a car mechanic. This job started disappearing already from late 1980's due to much improved reliability (and increasing complexity; an interesting combination difficult to grasp for many) of cars and finalized in 2000's by pretty reliable but nearly irrepairable cars. Sure, even further loss of this job is possible but not significantly anymore I think. Running specialized emissions analysis computers is replaced by running specialized EV battery analysis computers. Engine oil swaps become less frequent but normal checks to brake system, suspension parts etc. and replacing worn parts remain.But in the end, certain jobs disappearing is normal since the beginning of times. We don't have cave painting artists and mammoth hunters and horse carriage drivers and horse caretakers (feeder people, what is that called anyway) anymore. Buses don't have a separate worker collecting tickets, it has been automated long time ago too. People need to adjust and invent new jobs for themselves. Expecting someone to magically give you a job and maintain it until you die is pretty much socialism.

author: schmitt trigger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2025, 02:53:19 pm
content: Quote from: Analog Kid on January 13, 2025, 12:07:41 amThat, and by C-suite types of the transportation companies, who have wet dreams of a business which is not dependent of those pesky human beings. Which tend to get sick, require humane working conditions and have absenteeism issues.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2025, 03:23:45 pm
content: Quote from: Zero999 on January 13, 2025, 02:36:01 pmPredicting the future is fraught with difficulty, but we can look at market economics.Waymo is currently charging around 70 cent per mile for their SDC taxis in Phoenix, AZ. The IRS allows drivers to claim back around 70 cent per mile so it is fair to assume that the average car costs about that much to maintain once depreciation, insurance and maintenance are factored in. Probably a bit more.Now imagine Waymo offers something like a $400 per month subscription for unlimited SDC usage ("fair usage policy applies" blah blah blah). Now people are going to start looking at their car lease agreement of $300 per month which doesn't include fuel and insurance, and go, hang on, why would I own a car?The network effect will start to take over, when you have so many taxis available that you can hail one in 30 seconds. That is not currently feasible for human-driven taxis for a few reasons:- Drivers need a wage, and there's only so much business for a $3-4 per mile taxi (basically, the people who really need to go somewhere; and the people wealthy enough to not care.)- Drivers need to be paid regardless of whether there's a customer in the car. A taxi has to go ~200% the distance it delivers a customer because of the return journey. Once there are more customers, this amount reduces, but the problem is the number of customers are limited by the scaling which is limited by the price.In theory, if universal self driving is cracked (big "if"!) the cost per mile will be comparable to maintenance, depreciation and electricity cost, plus a profit margin, but it'll be almost always cheaper to take a taxi than your own car.I think once we get to that point the transition is inevitable. Just like in the 1900s you probably couldn't predict the rise of the motor car - it went from a toy for rich people to a necessary tool in 20-30 years. Or for a more recent example: imagine being on the board of Nokia or Blackberry in 2006 and you hear a rumour that Apple is going to launch a phone. "Apple? That Apple? The computer company?! Good luck to them, they'll never figure out the software. We have the edge there, customers won't want new and untested..."

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2025, 03:42:33 pm
content: Quote from: Zero999 on January 13, 2025, 02:36:01 pmEVs basically replace an ICE engine, gear box and fuel tank with an electric motor and battery. ICE engines and gearboxes have been migrating towards throw away when it fails items for the last 2 decades. Still mechanics do quite a lot of work replacing worn bushes, brake pads and other things common to EVs and ICE cars. In fact, allthoughthe brakes in an EV see less wear and tear, they suffer greater rusting problems than ICE cars. I'm not sure EVs represent a further loss of mechanic work over that already lost in the ICE world.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2025, 03:43:31 pm
content: Quote from: Zero999 on January 13, 2025, 02:36:01 pmYet when I looked up the annual service costs for an EV, it wasn't actually cheaper than my car.It's a quantum superposition. When you read an article, it is "supposed to be 50% lower" but when you have to pay, it's actually the same.So I looked up how much servicing the Toyota br4whatever costs, which was 415 EUR. And a similar Prius from the same year was 385 EUR.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2025, 04:01:07 pm
content: Quote from: tszaboo on January 13, 2025, 03:43:31 pmThat's because (a) Toyota don't really 'get' EVs, and (b) dealer servicing is always a rip off anyway.The 'dealer service' for my car (VW ID.3) is about £250 and due every two years or 20,000 miles. But realistically it covers:- Charging the high voltage battery... I can do that at home for ~£6. Why do I need to pay the dealer to do it?- Inspecting the underbody for damage/rust/etc. Already part of the mandatory MOT.- Checking for recalls and applying any necessary. Can be done online for free. Statutory requirement to notify me by post anyway.- Changing the pollen filter. A new one is ~£15 and it's an easy job to change.- Software updates, if available. These are delivered OTA.So, do I need to service my car? Nothing there will lead to catastrophic failure if it is not done. The only thing I'll get is a "car needs service" warning if I don't do it. Which I can cancel via my OBD dongle.

author: Analog Kid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2025, 08:20:58 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on January 13, 2025, 03:42:33 pmNot sure about that: as late as the mid-2000s there were still lots of auto-repair businesses that specialized in replacing engines with the Japanese engines that came over here by the boatload, since there were at their mandated end-of-life in Japan (I think somewhere between 100K and 200K miles). It was a much cheaper alternative to a brand-new engine.I wonder if that market still exists.

author: Analog Kid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2025, 11:06:45 pm
content: Another data point for us self-driving car h8trs, from San Francisco:"Two Stalled Waymos Gummed Up Lurie’s Chinatown Inauguration Party, But Cops Just Jumped In Them and Drove Away"

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2025, 12:41:21 am
content: Quote from: tszaboo on January 13, 2025, 03:43:31 pmDealerships don't make their money on selling you a car, they make the vast majority of their money on maintenance and upselling useless warranties/coatings/etc. Of course they want you to take the car in.As tom says, unless something has actually gone wrong, all you are doing is changing the air filter every few years. Maybe changing the 12V battery after 5 years (which they are phasing out):https://www.tesla.com/ownersmanual/model3/en_us/GUID-E95DAAD9-646E-4249-9930-B109ED7B1D91.htmlTypical real world rates are 30-50% less:https://advocacy.consumerreports.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/EV-Ownership-Cost-Final-Report-1.pdf

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2025, 05:08:33 am
content: how about a button that makes it lose power over a period of say 15 seconds so traffic can adjust but its also a hard shut downit might still be a problem if it decides to turn off in the middle of a highway though, if it fails to pull overLike you should be able to stop it, if something catches on fire.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2025, 05:10:01 am
content: How about you keep a driver on board?

author: Analog Kid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2025, 06:40:41 am
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on January 14, 2025, 05:10:01 amNo!We must have Johnny Cab! Gotta have Johnny Cab!

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2025, 07:26:38 am
content: Employing people costs too much.Unemployed people cost too much."I'm sorry, Dave...."

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2025, 07:54:49 am
content: Quote from: thm_w on January 14, 2025, 12:41:21 amYou are forgetting brake maintenance (lubricating the slide pins), and replacing worn suspension parts; for example some Teslas have been notorious to require suspension repair already after just some tens of thousands of km (with failure rate of 25% in first 3-year inspection), but even in better build quality cars that is going to happen around 100 000 km or so, or maybe 3-5 years if the car is being used (and it makes no sense to buy an EV and not drive it).Really the only significant maintenance item missing from EVs are frequent oil + oil filter changes. The cost of which is around 30-40€ / year. EVs do not require much maintenance, but neither do new-ish ICE cars.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2025, 10:44:54 am
content: Quote from: thm_w on January 14, 2025, 12:41:21 amYou lose the warranty if you don't do the service. I guess companies like Lexus or Kia, who offer 10 year warranties figured they could charge more for the regular maintenance than repairs. Which is fine in my book, they build a good quality car and the costs can be planned.As opposed to VW who will spend years of engineering so that your turbo can explode at 50001 Km.I just don't like this pretend it's not this way.

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2025, 11:18:29 am
content: Quote from: tszaboo on January 14, 2025, 10:44:54 amAt least here the practice of requiring servicing at the manufacturer's own dealership is deemed illegal, and warranty can't be void if the service is done per the manufacturer's requirements and correctly, at any provider who are equipped to do it, and trying to prevent it is also illegal. As a result, such servicing has at least acceptable level of competition. Servicing most new cars seem to range around 150-300 EUR depending on where you do it. As you point out, there is not much difference between EVs and ICE vehicles. For both of them, the servicing does not take long; unless there is something actually wrong, in which case it's covered by warranty.Expecting significant savings from already low maintenance cost is indeed fool's errand. EV saves money in countries where electricity is cheap and fossil fuels are expensive (e.g., Finland). The energy cost is by far the largest contributor of savings. It also used to be possible to save a bit on taxation and insurance fees but that has turned around when both the governments and insurance companies have figured out that EVs are being bought by "rich people" and can be thus sanctioned with extra taxes and fees because people can afford to pay them without complaining too much - basically, EV drivers now subsidize those driving with old cars, used to be the other way around.If one is theoretically able to save 40€/year from not having to do oil changes, that is completely irrelevant in the big picture.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2025, 11:45:46 am
content: Quote from: tszaboo on January 14, 2025, 10:44:54 amDefinitely not true in the UK. They would need to demonstrate that the vehicle's lack of servicing caused the fault. Engine exploding due to bad oil - easy to demonstrate. Main drive inverter going "bang" because you didn't get the body inspection done? Err... no.Anyway, aside from the battery pack, my car is out of warranty. I self-insure and repair my own vehicles. Not had a catastrophic fault... yet. Ask me in a few years!

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2025, 11:55:17 am
content: Quote from: tom66 on January 14, 2025, 11:45:46 amHaha, you think you are smarter than weasel lawyers.Quote

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 14, 2025, 12:01:05 pm
content: Quote from: Siwastaja on January 14, 2025, 11:18:29 amSame in Australia.Speaking of vehicle costs; I did some back-of-the-napkin maths a few years ago when I bought my current vehicle. For me, overall, it was cheaper to buy a fairly economical turbo-charged ICE car, than an EV of similar quality/spec. Depending on the time of year and the manufacturer, you can get yourself free or fixed-price servicing in the first handful of years. The insurance was also a huge expense. Currently, I pay about $860/yr for comprehensive insurance, with an agreed value (not market value) on my vehicle. It also includes 1 free windscreen repair/replacement each year, that doesn't impact my premium or claim-free standing. My insurer wouldn't even offer insurance on a Tesla. Some of the other quotes I got for a Tesla 3 were at least quadruple my yearly premium and probably then some. My insurer isn't some small, budget company either, it's a fairly well known brand.Coupled with range issues (I do travel quite a long distance on freeways), the cost of fast chargers, etc... The maths just didn't make sense.In Australia, in the states I live/drive in, every single petrol station has live fuel pricing through an application (run by the state government) on my phone. Personally, I deem half a tank to be "empty" and I'll start looking for places to fill up, depending on my movements. This gives me plenty of buffer to wait until the prices are low, or I can find somewhere along my planned route to fill up. It's not unusual to save something like 20c per litre on 98RON fuel just by not filling up at my local service stations, and planning ahead a little bit. For example, right now, looking at the stations I've favourited along my most commonly travelled routes, they range from 191.5 cents through to 222.9 cents per litre for 98RON unleaded. Lowest in the state is currently 171.5c/litre, highest is 259.0c/litre (neither are anywhere near me).Also speaking of fuel, since I know some people are playing along at home, the lows/highs for various fuels in my state (New South Wales, Australia), at time of writing, are as follows:E10: 149.5 to 213.9 cents per litreE85: 209.9 to 221.9 cents per litre91RON: 151.5 to 256.9 cents per litre95RON: 167.5 to 259.9 cents per litre98RON: 171.5 to 259.0 cents per litreDiesel: 162.5 to 269.9 cents per litreBiodiesel (20%): 245.0 to 249.9 cents per litreLPG: 89.9 to 149.9 cents per litre

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2025, 12:35:48 pm
content: To be honest Tesla is bad for insurance. When I was looking at quotes for my future car it was something likeTesla Model 3 - £2,500 per year with £500 deductibleVW ID.3 - £780 per year with £350 deductibleVW Golf Mk8 - £760 per year with £350 deductibleExisting VW Golf GTE - £600 per year with £350 deductibleIn other words, the older car was a little cheaper to insure (it being worth half as much) but the petrol & EV equivalents of each other (roughly same power, price, size category) were about the same, whereas the Tesla was much more expensive.Teslas have long repair times due to deliberate focus on Tesla on producing new vehicles with their production capacity. They also have a reputation for bad drivers.I did an indicative quote this year (my insurance renews in April) and the price should fall by a bit from where it was.