Michael Moore's documentary (deep dive needed?) - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: the_riddick
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: May 12, 2020, 05:23:00 am
content: Hello people, long time lurker here (PrimeTechnophillia on YT), I just wanted to start a discussion about Moore's recent documentary basically demonizing 'green energy' due to bad actors or bad practices.Channels like Sky News Australia are reveling in this documentary (corporate own media btw) and painting a very grim picture for all green energy technology such as Windmills and Solar by saying it consumes huge amounts of steel and fuel to make vs just using natural gas (even coal/liquid fuels).There is no discussion about recycling or companies which are doing green energy correctly, or even "designed to fail" green projects (we all know about those), and people are just buying into it saying global warming and the whole environmental issues are a huge hoax because this documentary somehow proves it....Should Dave deep dive into this nonsense? maybe even do some math to see what is really the cost of solar or wind solutions (common) vs doing just gas. From manufacture cost to life expectancy & maintenance. (weighted against each energy output)I know Dave has dabbled in this stuff many times but the big argument Moore and now corporate media are making is when you factor in lifespan and manufacturing etc, these green energy solutions end up being MANY times more terrible then using coal/fuel/gas solutions. (from a environmental perspective)Do I make sense? does this make sense? is the sky blue? we NEED "The Dave"!One such video to watch is below. (felt very cringe worthy!)

author: kjpye
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 12, 2020, 10:16:35 am
content: An Australian academic's opinion of Michael Moore's documentary:https://theconversation.com/3-times-michael-moores-film-planet-of-the-humans-gets-the-facts-wrong-and-3-times-it-gets-them-right-137890(The Conversation publishes articles written by academics and polished by journalists.)

author: the_riddick
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: May 12, 2020, 12:13:54 pm
content: Thanks, yeah basically what I was thinking.Unfortunately many people are jumping up and down claiming the movie basically proves all green energy is BS and climate change is BS and we should all go back to burning the world dry... yes people are cheering that nonsense.

author: chriva
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 12, 2020, 12:23:36 pm
content: Sadly he is correct. If you look under the thin skin of almost all "green" alternatives you'll see it's actually worse or not feasible whatsoever.And to be clear: I want change. I really, REALLY want a change but I want that change to actually be better than our current solutions.

author: the_riddick
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: May 12, 2020, 02:31:56 pm
content: Are there going to be bad actors using green energy to get rich while offering terrible solutions? ABSOLUTELY, that is typically how the %1 get richer after all.That doesn't mean all companies and countries selling wind and solar are pie in the sky solution, or do more damage then good. Pretty sure SA has been running windmills for a while now successfully. Some more closer to home observations are needed IMO.The only "green" energy that I'm quite against is the use of natural water ways to create dams for hydro-power, in New Zealand its a bit of a ecological disaster if you ask me! and the power companies STILL overcharge the crap out of people.(when I lived in NZ, the power companies were constantly forced to give refunds due to out of control overcharging!)

author: Styno
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 15, 2020, 12:17:18 pm
content: It seems to me that the premise of the film is: capitalism is wrong and we need to address climate change. And since renewables prove that they can address climate change within the capitalist system, it must attack renewables and it has to rely on severely outdated data to support that narrative.Regardless of whether you agree that capitalism is wrong, the film is lazy, full of nonsense, errors and outdated claims about renewables as countless people around the world have already documented.E.g. some (by far not all) obvious errors:- The Volt charging from 95% coal clip is 10 year old already, today the same utility is executing a multiyear plan to replace it with NG and renewables (30% from renewables and shutdown of their last coal plant in 2020).- Another -probably also old- clip claims that solar panels are less than 8% efficient. Weird, the datasheet on mine from 2009 says 18.1% (Sunpower), as does another set from a different manufacturer: 18.3 (LG). Anyway, how does efficiency matter when the energy is free? Plant efficiency maxes at 6%!- Solar panels only last 10 years is another of the silly claims made in the movie. My oldest set is 11 years old already and any degradation is unnoticeable due to yearly variation in weather. There is no discoloration or sign of water intrusion or delamination, so I don't see why they wouldn't last for many more years to come. It's a bullshit claim. Should I have to mention that almost every panel comes with a 25 year factory warranty?- Fabrication of solar panels does not cost more than their yield. This is a old myth that resurfaces every now and then. A simple Google Scholar search learns that the EROEI (Energy Return On Energy Invested) is much larger than 1, even in areas with less than ideal insolation it is in the order of 9-10. E.g.this onethat is a response to earlier such claims. The same goes for similar claims about windturbines (and, no, offshore windturbines don't have lifespan of only 15 years, they last much longer).- The film shows a graph of wind and solar in Germany claiming less that 5% marketshare while in realitytotal renewable marketsharein 2019 stood at 46% with solar and wind making up for more almost 3/4 of that.- There is no LNG gas terminal in Germany, the images shown are from Dörtyol (Turkey) from a Mitsui OSK Youtube promotional film.Then there are a lot of other problems that require a bit more in depth discussion, but the picture should already be clear.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2020, 05:13:33 am
content: Quote from: the_riddick on May 12, 2020, 02:31:56 pmThe hydro dams have been fantastic in my region. During WWII the vast amount of electricity they produced enabled the large scale refining of aluminum that feed our aircraft companies. Since then they have produced countless millions of megawatts, we get a significant portion of our electricity from hydro and have since the 1930s. Our electricity isn't as cheap as it used to be but at about 8.2c/kWh it's still some of the cheapest in the nation.It's not without ecological cost of course but nothing is.

author: the_riddick
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: June 22, 2020, 07:20:12 am
content: Believe it or not, you don't NEED to use natural water ways to create hydro power dam systems. It's just the cheap and nasty way of doing it since the infrastructure is mostly there thanks to mother nature.When I was in NZ there was this professor who wanted to build a artificial dam to produce power during peak times and use any excess energy to pump the water back into the dam during off-peak times, that made a hell of allot of sense to me. (I don't think anyone in power took him serious, so that was that)Here in South Australia we have a issue with too much excess energy being pumped into the grid due to solar, and nobody able to use it. It just goes to waste basically, meanwhile power companies still see fit to charge us up to 49 cents per kwh.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2020, 06:32:27 pm
content: Quote from: the_riddick on June 22, 2020, 07:20:12 amThey do exactly that at the Grande Coulee dam. Excess power is used to pump water up to a large reservoir at a higher elevation and then when demand increases those pumps become turbines generating electricity as the water flows downward. Apparently it works pretty well.

author: the_riddick
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: June 23, 2020, 03:06:34 am
content: Quote from: james_s on June 22, 2020, 06:32:27 pmThat's good to hear, the idea isn't new or anything, its just they refuse to do such things in NZ while complaining about the damage the hydro systems have on the stream and river ecosystems. (promotes algae growth, increases toxic sediment buildup, long list of issues, etc)

author: SparkyFX
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2020, 04:41:20 am
content: Quote from: the_riddick on June 22, 2020, 07:20:12 amPumped storage is a quite reliable buffer - even for non-renewables that have the same problem to decouple generation from use.