Massive EV cement truck fire: official 'explanation' versus the facts. - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: MT
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 20, 2023, 03:08:11 pm
content: Aaaand noow! EEVBLOG forum favourite, everyone's Aussie cuddle bear!

author: Dan123456
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 20, 2023, 03:39:37 pm
content: lolShe’ll be right! I say we get them hauling fuel tankers, hazardous materials and vital medicines rather than just concrete ASAP

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 20, 2023, 10:19:19 pm
content: Gas vehicles are far more likely to catch fire than EVs, on the order of 7-40x more likely. Commercial trucks are disproportionally a larger percent of those fires.https://www.warpnews.org/transportation/fewer-fires-in-electric-cars-compared-to-fossil-fueled-cars-in-the-worlds-country-with-the-highest-share-of-electric-cars/https://rib.msb.se/filer/pdf/29438.pdfhttps://rosap.ntl.bts.gov/view/dot/9671

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 20, 2023, 11:58:25 pm
content: Sigh. Another Cardogan video where he looks at one off occurrences and concludes electrification is doomed because low-series-production vehicles are experiencing battery fires. I mean, let's just ignore that diesel trucks do catch fire quite a bit, and that this fire really only resulted in an economic cost to the company operating it (no one died or was injured). Despite all of this, operators are clambering like mad for electric vehicle options here. I guess they're all deranged because every EV truck burns to the ground and no one would be stupid enough to want to use one.Shame, I used to like the chap but he seems to have found his niche and is determined to follow it to the bitter end.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2023, 12:31:29 am
content: Quote from: tom66 on December 20, 2023, 11:58:25 pmI never liked him.CH7 had a disturbing tendency to find some big mouthed "Engineer" who would feed his own ego by making profound statements where a moment's reflection would reveal he was talking nonsense.On one occasion, to supposedly reveal that people were being "ripped off" by TV service companies, instead of calling upon their own internal expertise in Electronic maintenance, they found some tame EE "off the street" to set up a "trap" for the service Techs.To this end, he misadjusted a trimmer inside the TV (too long ago to remember which function was affected) & the butchered TV was sent to various repair shops.They all charged a reasonable amount for finding the fault, but "big head" then pronounced they were overcharging when "all they had to do was adjust a trimmer".Any of 7's multitude of Techs could have told them that if adjustment can "fix" a fault, & there is no obvious sign of tampering, it is foolhardy in the extreme to "just button the thing up & call it good" as the adjustment may be simply masking a real fault.Where does the above relate to Cadogan?Only that he was yet another of their tame "experts".A classic was when he was lecturing everybody about distracted driving whilst spending most of his time looking at the camera as he drove.The thing all such people seem to have in common is having a really great opinion of themselves.

author: wilfred
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2023, 01:45:08 am
content: Quote from: tom66 on December 20, 2023, 11:58:25 pmHe was less annoying years ago and got to the point a bit faster. He now seems to like the sound of his own voice. Ain't nobody got time for that. He flogged his anus joke for far too long. I didn't watch to the end though.I was impressed he threw in exothermic early on. It shows he might think his audience would know what it meant or at least be impressed as I was.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 21, 2023, 02:33:04 am
content: More than 200 truck fires in NSW alone every year:https://www.epa.nsw.gov.au/newsletters/epa-connect-newsletter/september-2022/guide-to-help-prevent-truck-fires

author: EPAIII
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2023, 03:18:34 am
content: That statistic may be true, but it sounds like it needs to be clarified.One thing I would ask about is just how big the fire events were. Perhaps I am wrong, but when a gas or diesel vehicle catches fire, it can be easily extinguished. I had a fire in my gas powered truck on a highway trip and was able to put it out with the small fire extinguisher that I carried. I even had time to pull over to the shoulder of the road, get out of the truck, open the hood, observe the fire, go into the trailer to get the extinguisher, return to the truck, and put the fire out. I did this myself, with a small extinguisher. And after it cooled down, I was able to drive the truck and trailer to the next exit where repairs were made.But, from what I have heard, it is very difficult to extinguish fires in lithium batteries. They resist conventional fire fighting methods and, as apparently happened in this truck, the fire spreads from one cell to the next and the next and the next, etc. until all or most of the cells have burned up. I don't think the driver of that cement truck was able to extinguish the fire. Nor was he able to drive it to the nearest repair shop.And, worse yet, if the EV which catches fire is parked next to other vehicles, then the fire is probably going to be intense enough to spread to them, weather they are EV or gas or diesel powered. And the fire fighters can only sit back and watch it happen. There was a ship loaded with a mixture of vehicles, only a small percentage of which were EVs. One EV caught fire and it spread to all or almost all of the rest. There was nothing the fire fighters could do except watch from a distance.I hate to bring up a possible doom's day situation, but there are many tall buildings where the lower levels have parking garages for the occupants' vehicles. I have worked in such buildings and parked my car in those lower levels. On 9-11 TWO skyscrapers were brought down by jet fuel fires. I can only imagine what would happen if a building with multiple floors of auto parking and a mixture of EVs and conventional fueled vehicles were to have a fire start in one of the EVs while parked in the middle of the day. They would be trying to evacuate the building THROUGH the lower floors where the fire was. And would that building be able to remain standing with the intense heat of such a fire? Or would it too fail and fall to the ground as happened on 9-11.A conventional fire in a parked vehicle in such a building could be handled by a fire department. It may even be handled by a vehicle owner, as I did that day when my truck had a fire. But if an EV has a battery fire, what can anyone do except TRY to evacuate everyone to a safe distance?It is not the number of fires that we need to be concerned about. It is the SEVERITY of them. And EV fires can be very, very severe. Someone needs to look into this before we have another 9-11 level disaster.Quote from: thm_w on December 20, 2023, 10:19:19 pm

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 21, 2023, 04:02:50 am
content: Quote from: EPAIII on December 21, 2023, 03:18:34 amThis was recently discussed at our building strata meeting, speifically around allowing high capacity EV chargers in underground carparks. One of the guys is my insurance broker and he said that this is a concern in the industry but they don't really have much data on it yet, and building insurance premium haven't yet taken this into account given the relatively limited number of EV's. But this will almost certainly change.As I understand it, there have been multiple underground carpark EV fires around the first, and AFAIK none of them have resulted in a building loss. There is ample time to evacuate people if the fire alarm systems are working.Underground carparks are usually concrete pits and can withstand such fires without putting the building at risk. Not to mention automted fire sprinker systems that can help control the heat.If it happens in my building, my dungeon will turn into a pool.The twin towers was unique in that planes slammed into them. If it was just a regular fire, even if someone came in and poured jet fuel everywhere and lit it up, it's almost certain everyone would have gotten out.Yes, the problem with EV fires is not really that they can happen, it's that they are much more difficult to control.

author: sleemanj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2023, 04:38:30 am
content: I bet that fellow carries around a lithium cell in his pocket and never worries for a second "what if this explodes".Manufacturers are moving to LFP these days anyway, batteries are just getting safer and safer.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2023, 04:43:34 am
content: lithium battery jackets kick assawesome not to be looking like the puff marshmellow man when its coldand you know some marshmellow man probobly died when a gust of wind blew him off a bridge or into traffic because of the ridiclous aerodynamic profile of those puffy jackets, especially on slippery ice streets

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2023, 07:42:07 am
content: Quote from: EPAIII on December 21, 2023, 03:18:34 amJust google for gas tank rupture fire.Once all fire departments get injection spikes, extuingishing EV fires should be easy enough. Sprinklers will keep it under control regardless.I wonder though if with good design with water cooled batteries it would really be impossible to keep a shorting cell below ignition temperature. Maybe have a compartmentalized design and increase flow to a compartment if something goes wrong? Hell, that might already be best practice for all I know.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2023, 10:34:49 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on December 21, 2023, 04:02:50 amExactly.

author: .RC.
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2023, 11:21:36 am
content: I thought all ICE vehicles were on fire when they are driving around.

author: Ice-Tea
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2023, 12:22:40 pm
content: Yes, but only internally ;-)

author: MT
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2023, 12:43:45 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on December 21, 2023, 02:33:04 amNot even close to the Luton car park fire, 1500 cars burned in one go, caused by one battery hybrid car!

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2023, 12:59:57 pm
content: Quote from: MT on December 21, 2023, 12:43:45 pm... a "hybrid" whose registration plate mysteriously comes back to a 3 litre diesel non-hybrid, and for which the fire departments have been clear was a conventional car, and a model for which recalls have been issued already due to fire risk, but let's not let facts get in the way of a good story!

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2023, 01:20:40 pm
content: Yes, I remember the BBC news reports - It was a Diesel (not even more volatile petrol). The guy's a dick.

author: MT
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2023, 06:35:49 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on December 21, 2023, 12:59:57 pmYou do know Auto Expert Cadogan is always right, and cant be questioned!

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2023, 06:41:15 pm
content: Maybe he needs to be relegated to the Dodgy Technology section in future.

author: u666sa
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2023, 07:44:41 pm
content: Man. When it comes to cement, the idea is cheap. Cheap but quality. I don't see how using this thing will make things cheaper.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2023, 07:59:54 pm
content: the teamsters 'union' must have lit it on fire

author: MT
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2023, 08:06:02 pm
content: Quote from: Gyro on December 21, 2023, 01:20:40 pmCome on now ..... Cadongan is not a dick .... he's just a little tiny bit "annoying"!Only Brittons work them selfs up over their Aussie cousins having a point or two in the EV tradgedy drama.Heeey, here is another cousin!

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2023, 08:18:34 pm
content: people need to try driving EV, their just better. gasoline is horse and buggy and feels like it! stretchy cars. I feel like its those people warning me against the first Lion power drills (mid 2000's makita), which ended up utterly kicking ass. In the early 2000's there was down right prosecution against my makita drill acquisiton.

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2023, 08:29:13 pm
content: Quote from: MT on December 21, 2023, 08:06:02 pmHey, I'm not bringing nationality into it - although now you come to mention it, he does have a really annoying accent (can't think where I've heard one like it before?).What makes him a dick is posting a half hour video on something either without bothering to check his basic facts, or knowing that they are wrong, first.Sorry, I ain't going to waste my time watching another 'cousin'.P.S. I'm not pro or anti EV. I drive a hybrid, which seems to work fine most of the time.

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2023, 01:05:00 am
content: Quote from: EPAIII on December 21, 2023, 03:18:34 amYou are giving an example which wouldn't even have been in the gas vehicle fire statistics, not the greatest example but OK.Your concerns should be resolved by having the appropriate tools for the fire department, sprinklers or other systems inside car parks to mitigate fire spread where possible. As mentioned above, as LFP gets wider adoption, spread will be less of an issue if at all.Quotehttps://lashfire.eu/media/2022/09/2022-08_Facts_and_Myths.pdfQuote from: coppercone2 on December 21, 2023, 08:18:34 pmYeah but how many horse and buggy fires are there? Clearly the safest and more superior mode of transportation.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 22, 2023, 01:58:55 am
content: Quote from: Marco on December 21, 2023, 07:42:07 amWhat are "injection spikes"?

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2023, 02:07:07 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on December 22, 2023, 01:58:55 amSounds like this thing:https://ctif.org/news/new-revolutionary-method-extinguishes-lithium-ion-ev-fires-ten-minutes-minimal-water"Cobra Ultra High Pressure Lance (UHPL) firefighting equipment – this equipment uses abrasive entrained in water to pierce and then water mist to suppress/extinguish. This is all applied using one continuous action. This uses water at 58 l/min."There are also tools which are just blocks to direct the angle from under the car up toward the battery:https://arstechnica.com/cars/2021/11/new-firefighting-tool-delivers-water-directly-to-blazing-ev-batteries/as a normal hose doesn't work that well.

author: EPAIII
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2023, 05:24:55 am
content: Water cooling to the cells. Interesting thought and it seems like a good idea.But water boils and the steam escapes.So the question then becomes, just how much water can a vehicle carry for battery emergencies? Even a large vehicle like a dump truck or a tractor for a semi? How much WOULD they carry when it will cost them dollars or euros or whatever currency for the extra battery charging for every kilo of water carried.I would bet that it would not be long before that water tank is at the lowest possible level 100% of the time.And a battery emergency occurs and the extra water starts flowing to that cell to keep it cool. A red light comes on in the cab. What does the driver do then? Stop on the side of the highway and call for help? Try to get to the next exit and hope there's facilities there? Just keep on trucking because he needs to be on schedule? Or what?Quote from: Marco on December 21, 2023, 07:42:07 am

author: EPAIII
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2023, 05:49:27 am
content: Airport car park! Been there. They are one of the loneliest places in any city. I wonder just how many cars were either on fire or completely burned out BEFORE ANYONE even noticed there was a fire.If I was setting the odds on a Las Vegas bet on that, I would set the percentage of already lost vehicles at about 50% for the 50/50 break point in the odds. In other words, I think it is an even bet that a full HALF of the cars there were destroyed before the alarm went in. And THEN the fire department had to actually get there, possibly in time to watch helplessly while the last 5% or 10% of the vehicles went up in flames.I am not a doom's day guy. I really am not. I have watched that "doom's day clock" on the Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists for over 50 years now and never really worried about nuclear war.https://thebulletin.org/doomsday-clock/current-time/But this really, really has me concerned. And I fear that is far more likely than nuclear war breaking out. It is almost inevitable if nothing is done.If a battery fire can destroy 1500 vehicles in an airport car park, think what it could do in the lower floors of a tall office building. One of the 9-11 aircraft was said to carry 20,000 gallons of jet fuel, which was the actual weapon used by the terrorists to bring those building down. With 90% of 1500 autos, each having a partial tank of gasoline you could easily have that same 20,000 gallons of fuel. And access to such an office building's parking area would be far, far more difficult for the fire department. I don't think you can glibly say that when all the fire departments get the correct tool, the problem is solved. They must get to that FIRST EV in time to actually use that device before the fire spreads out of control.I just don't want to pick up the paper one morning or turn on the TV news and see another building that has collapsed into a heap of ashes. I just don't want to see that!Quote from: MT on December 21, 2023, 12:43:45 pm

author: EPAIII
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2023, 08:16:54 am
content: And ______ is going to pay the cost of replacing the dangerous lithium cells with these safer ones! On an expedited schedule, of course.Please fill in the blank.Quote from: thm_w on December 22, 2023, 01:05:00 am

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2023, 01:13:51 pm
content: Quote from: thm_w on December 22, 2023, 01:05:00 amHaving been on the receiving end of very high-octane horse farts, I would definitely discourage anybody from lighting a cigarette while it is in full flow.

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2023, 01:56:01 pm
content: Quote from: EPAIII on December 22, 2023, 05:49:27 amThis one was spotted almost immediately (while it was just a single car), it's a busy car park. People tried to fight it with available fire extinguishers before being forced to retreat.As previously detailed, it wasn't an EV, it was a Diesel.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2023, 02:56:55 pm
content: Quote from: Gyro on December 22, 2023, 01:56:01 pmThere are a lot of false reports purporting to be about fires caused by EVs, & even misstating where the fire happened.There was a fire in a car storage yard here in Perth WA (with nary an EV in the yard) which appeared on the Internet as a whole lot of EVs on fire in China.Most of these things can be checked on Snopes, and are almost always BS.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2023, 03:54:57 pm
content: Quote from: EPAIII on December 22, 2023, 05:49:27 amBuilding designers aren't idiots. They know car park fires happen. They know that putting an office block on top of a car park that can burn presents additional risk. Depending on the use, the buildings are designed to withstand different fire durations.In the UK, a regular car park only needs to withstand fire for 15 minutes. That is, the fire can have spread to the next floor within 15 minutes. That sounds crazy at first, but think about it: car parks are wide, open spaces. Evacuation is easy. We care about humans. Cars can be replaced, people can't be. The fire doors and evacuation stairs have to withstand the fire for far longer, usually 60-90 minutes, giving sufficient time for fire fighters to stage an attack and search for anyone who could be trapped. It's notable in the car park fire in Liverpool, UK, in 2018, the car park was totally gutted, but the fire escapes were relatively untouched. There was only a bit of smoke damage, the fire doors had otherwise completely withstood the entire car park going up .For something like a shopping mall, where there might be a populous retail area attached to a multistorey car park, the car park area is designed to contain the fire for as long as possible, with double fire-door systems linking the two (when you next visit one, see how they design this). The populated areas of the shopping mall can be evacuated quickly; the plans are well established. Units that have a large number of people, like a cinema, are placed away from the car park area (and will have their own fire escapes), as these will naturally take longer to evacuate. Fire alarm systems will be linked. The fire won't spread to the retail units for some time, but again, economic cost if it does, no lives lost, no big deal.Office blocks are more challenging, but usually a substantial concrete foundation barrier will exist between any underground car park and the busy office block. The office block itself will have normal evacuation procedures. If it's big enough it'll have things like backup generators to keep lifts going for evacuation.I'm sure some fire chiefs fret about fighting these fires, and sure, they're going to be a challenge, but battery-EVs don't make huge car park fires much worse. The majority of energy comes from the burning of the flammable interior and plastics, the battery might add fuel to the, er, fire, but it's really not that much energy compared to the rest of the car. Just on a fundamental physics level, a lithium-ion battery is nearly inert when fully discharged (this is why when transported, EVs are only charged to 10% or so). They can still burn, but much less ferociously. This tells us the energy released from a battery can't be much more than what it is charged up with. Maybe 0.5GJ worst case for some of the biggest SUV EVs.https://www.bafsa.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/bsk-pdf-manager/2018/12/Merseyside-FRS-Car-Park-Report.pdf(page 41, 42, showing how good fire door design works)

author: CJay
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2023, 05:58:34 pm
content: Quote from: EPAIII on December 21, 2023, 03:18:34 amSure.https://www.mylondon.news/news/south-london-news/gatwick-airport-fire-dramatic-video-26808164https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-46290095I don't think we're ready for EVs yet (for various reasons but we will be) but those two horrific fires were caused by conventional IC engined vehicles so your argument seems spurious at best.

author: CJay
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2023, 06:06:13 pm
content: Quote from: Gyro on December 22, 2023, 01:56:01 pmAnd the Liverpool Arena fire a few years ago which destroyed 1400 cars and the building was also an ICE vehicle.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 23, 2023, 10:11:49 am
content: Quote from: tom66 on December 22, 2023, 03:54:57 pmMy bunker undergrtound carpark (single level and rather small compared to my lab office building) has two huge fire doors. Not sure they are automatic, I've never really looked. Only ever seen one closed once. I always wondered why they bothered in such an otherwise small carpark complex. And this building is older than my lab building which has a far larger underground carpark, and like 5 times larger.

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2023, 02:48:42 pm
content: Quote from: EPAIII on December 22, 2023, 05:24:55 amBut ignoring physical damage it's just one cell. That's not going to bring the cooling loop to boiling. Electronics are cheap and small, detecting individual cell temperature shouldn't really be an issue.Once the industry matures I just can't see individual cell failure leading to any significant accidents. These are teething problems.

author: G7PSK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2023, 04:21:23 pm
content: Most truck fires are caused by brake binding on trailers or under inflated tyres and drivers who either don't care or are half asleep, I was driving a truck where a diesel pipe cracked and was spraying diesel directly onto the exhaust manifold, I noticed a great white cloud following me, I pulled over and that is when I discovered the problem, no fire, patched the fuel line and was on my way again. If diesel was as inflammable as some suggest aerobatic display teams like the red arrows would be trailing long flames not smoke, the smoke is made by injecting diesel and dye into the jets exhaust.Most vehicle fires and for that matter most fire in general are down to electrical faults.The Luton airport fire had two different vehicles shown as the cause of the fire by the media, in the first one the showed a range rover from the back with flames shooting out horizontally from behind the near side front wheel, the number plate was not readable due to smoke and glare the other video showed a front view with a readable number plate but the fire was not the same. The police have arrested one person in relation to this fire, no idea if it was the driver of the range rover who according to some reports left his smoking vehicle with the engine running telling check in that that his car was on fire and he had to catch a flight for an important meeting and could someone deal with it.

author: lezginka_kabardinka
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2023, 05:11:49 pm
content: EVs... lol.More fires, more morons, more futurist obsessive nonsense.

author: lezginka_kabardinka
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2023, 05:13:18 pm
content: Quote from: thm_w on December 20, 2023, 10:19:19 pm"Far more likely" != ACTUALLY DO. EVs are constantly catching fire, it is a known issue.Leave the futurist fantasists to their toy cars.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2023, 05:46:07 pm
content: Quote from: lezginka_kabardinka on December 23, 2023, 05:13:18 pmAll the statistics available disagree with you, for instancehere. Do you have a source for your extraordinary claim?

author: lezginka_kabardinka
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2023, 06:13:18 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on December 23, 2023, 05:46:07 pmExcellent. Enjoy stat counting.

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2023, 07:05:08 pm
content: Quote from: lezginka_kabardinka on December 23, 2023, 05:13:18 pmYes it is, otherwise it wouldn't be more likely.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 23, 2023, 09:51:42 pm
content: Quote from: lezginka_kabardinka on December 23, 2023, 05:11:49 pmI love my EV. No noise, no vibration, no local air pollution (we literally call our ICE car the "Stinky" car), almost no running costs because I use excess solar, never have to go to a petrol station.Although they are expensive, but the tax payer gave me one for free.Not for everyone of course, horses for courses. But definitely not LOL.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2023, 10:48:40 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on December 23, 2023, 09:51:42 pmI feel like luddism has had a giant resurgence recently. It's as if they've finally adopted the internet just so they can oppose it.

author: lezginka_kabardinka
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2023, 02:00:42 am
content: I’ll see you all in the distant future, when EVs will STILL not have “taken over”, and they’ll STILL be adamant it “will happen, it’s got to, it’s just a matter of time” 🤣Live the dream chaps, that’s all it’s gonna be.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2023, 02:30:15 am
content: Oh, it's unlokia again. That explains that.

author: johansen
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2023, 02:47:55 am
content: Quote from: thm_w on December 20, 2023, 10:19:19 pmwhat makes hybrid cars safer than gasoline cars?they have all the complexity of a gas, and electric.. in one?!me thinks a simple failure of applying the number of vehicles in existence.. to generate salacious claim of 7-40 times more likely.-there are how many hundreds of times more gas cars on the roads?i can't even remember a news article mentioning a gasoline or diesel car fire.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2023, 02:56:06 am
content: Quote from: johansen on December 24, 2023, 02:47:55 amSelective memory or lack of reporting.Ford recalled more than 600,000 vehicles globally last year over ICE-unique fire risks. Over 125,000 this year in the US alone.https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/ford-recalls-more-than-125000-suvs-due-fire-risk-nhtsa-2023-06-06/https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/ford-recalls-nearly-519000-us-vehicles-over-fire-risks-2022-11-24/https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-38641489https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-46180703Oh wait sorry no, I missed the 142,000 Lincolns:https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/ford-recalls-142000-lincoln-suvs-us-fire-risks-2023-05-31/But clearly, ICE vehicles just don't catch fire. That's why they recall MILLIONS of them every year to fix them so they don't catch fire.

author: johansen
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2023, 03:00:42 am
content: Quote from: Monkeh on December 24, 2023, 02:56:06 amHow many battery packs has tesla swapped out to cut the fire risk?.And now many are recalled has no bearing on how many have caught fire....A times b times c equals x. If x is less than the cost of a recall...we dont do one.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2023, 03:03:18 am
content: Quote from: johansen on December 24, 2023, 03:00:42 amI don't know. Feel free to present a number.QuoteHow serious the risk is has very much bearing over whether they recall them to fix them. The risk becomes serious when enough of them catch fire to take note of, and I helpfully provided several examples of news articles of ICE vehicles suffering external combustion, seeing as you just can't recall such an article or event occuring.

author: johansen
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2023, 03:06:00 am
content: Quote from: Monkeh on December 24, 2023, 03:03:18 amFire risk in a gas car is usually a couple components, easy to fix, cheap to recall.The entire battery pack?...lol

author: johansen
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2023, 03:21:41 am
content: https://www.nfpa.org/education-and-research/research/nfpa-research/fire-statistical-reports/vehicle-fires?l=0Using that data as a baseline, there have neen 302 deaths per year due to small vehicle fires.https://www.tesla-fire.com/80 confirmed deaths, 218 fires.You can run the numbers to adjust for the far, far fewer number of Teslas in existence compared to all other vehicles.

author: 5U4GB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2023, 03:27:16 am
content: Oh, that's a different nutter than the one that someone sent me a link to. There was a house fire somewhere close to here and some crackpot with a Youtube channel was expounding an elaborate conspiracy theory involving local government, central government, the fire service, fire safety investigators, the media, and probably a few more, all in a grand conspiracy to cover up the fact that an EV parked outside the house on a driveway had caused the fire inside the house. Someone, maybe George Soros or Bill Gates, was telling all these organisations to report that it wasn't the EV parked outside that caused the fire inside (I stopped listening after a minute or two).You don't even need to quote figures of EV vs. ICE fires for something like this, if the person pushing the conspiracy theory is recording his video from la-la land then that's pretty much the end of it.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2023, 03:45:25 am
content: Quote from: johansen on December 24, 2023, 03:21:41 amYes, let's compare an average from a single nation with 10 cumulative years globally. The number you're looking for is 6.7, not 80.

author: Dan123456
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2023, 03:58:27 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on December 23, 2023, 09:51:42 pmLol, I’m the exact oppositeWhile I have nothing against EV’s other than thinking they aren’t quite ready to take they place of ICE vehicles (although getting close!), I just love the sound, rumbles and smells of a high power ICE engineThat said, I am also one of those people that prefers a manual transmission as auto’s are boring to drive so maybe I’m just becoming a hipster in my old age

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2023, 04:23:52 am
content: Both have advantages and drawbacks. I also like real ICE engines and manual transmission. But the comfort and silence of EVs, especially in urban traffic, is hard to beat.Apart from EVs not being quite ready as you said, what I don't like, and I don't see ever improving (as it's not merely a technological issue) - probably only getting worse over time - is how dependent they make you compared to an ICE vehicle, on many levels.

author: lezginka_kabardinka
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2023, 04:31:53 am
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on December 24, 2023, 04:23:52 amFar from a coincidence!

author: EPAIII
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2023, 05:07:31 am
content: You say my example was not a good one because it was so small that it would not have even been part of the statistics. You are correct. I did not report it to anyone except my wife and employer because I might have been late for work on the following Monday. And I doubt that the shop which did the repairs reported it to anyone; at least not to my knowledge.Actually THAT very fact shows just how pertinent my example was. The gasoline/oil fire in my truck was so slow to grow that I DID have time to take effective action. And I only needed a very SMALL, probably the smallest available, fire extinguisher to put it out.Apparently the driver of the EV did find a fire extinguisher and use it. If I am not mistaken you can see one or perhaps even two fire extinguishers in the videos and they are nice, BIG ones. Far bigger than the one I used. It or they did NOTHING to stop the battery fire. And he/she apparently did not have time to return with a better one.Frankly I doubt that once the fire had progressed from that original cell to one or two of it's neighbors, that any firefighting equipment could have stopped it. What time frame was that? Two or three minutes? Perhaps just seconds? Certainly not very long. Just how much protective material do they place between the cells in these EV batteries? Probably not much.I think this is a magnificent comparison between a fire in a gas/diesel vehicle and in a EV. Both started as a small, confined fire. One stayed local/confined while the other spread quickly. One fire did not even make the statistics while the other brought down a whole building. One bad cell in an EV battery destroyed over 1000 vehicles and the building they were parked in.Thanks for helping me with that point. It is a great point.Quote from: vk6zgo on December 22, 2023, 01:13:51 pm

author: EPAIII
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2023, 05:24:24 am
content: Well, I have been in busy auto parks and in ones that were almost totally isolated and deserted (the long term ones). And even the busy ones had areas where there was little or no activity. Upper floors or distant corners, etc. And in office buildings the second basement can see almost no one after 8PM and before 7AM. As I said, BEEN THERE and DONE THAT.The fact that the owner was present and that it was a busy parking building did NOTHING to stop the disaster. You also have actually helped my point. The fire department would need to be there within a minute or two after that first cell caught fire. And even then, they may not have been able to stop it. Thanks for helping to make my point.As for it being a diesel, I believe the powers-that-be are emphasizing that word instead of saying it was some kind of hybrid which did have a lithium based battery - a big one.Quote from: Gyro on December 22, 2023, 01:56:01 pm

author: johansen
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2023, 05:40:19 am
content: Quote from: Monkeh on December 24, 2023, 03:45:25 amYou can easily see, just on the ratio of 218 fires and 80 deaths.. they are far higher than ICE on a per mile driven measure, and deadlier.just looking at the list, there have been 31 fires in the last 12 months in the usa, and 30-34 casualties in the usa. that tells me that not all the fires are being reported. just look at the fact that none of the fires in other countries have any casualties, except for germany with a couple.teslas make up just 4% of the vehicles on the road in the usa..hmm...

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2023, 05:52:28 am
content: Quote from: EPAIII on December 24, 2023, 05:24:24 amYou can believe what you like, but the vehicle is known to have been a TDV6 model - NOT a hybrid.Quote from: johansen on December 24, 2023, 05:40:19 amI'm not sure how it tells you that, but okay.So, where are the other 4600 fires? If they're 4% of vehicles they'd be 4% of fires if the rate was equal, and 4% of the average from your own data source is 4,694.8 fires.

author: johansen
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2023, 07:29:39 am
content: Quote from: Monkeh on December 24, 2023, 05:52:28 amThere are about 300 deaths due to fires in the usa. (Like 5 year moving average )10% of them are from teslas. As per last years data.Which make up 4% of the cars on the road.This 2.5:1 ratio fits with the insurance cost data you can also find.Read more herehttps://www.tesladeaths.com/resources

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2023, 11:06:28 am
content: Quote from: johansen on December 24, 2023, 03:00:42 amTesla hasneverhad a recall due to battery fire risk except for the mechanical impact issue on older Model S, which was fixed by bolting a large block of titanium to the front of the battery pack so that road debris does not cause cell damage.

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2023, 12:05:58 pm
content: Quote from: EPAIII on December 24, 2023, 05:24:24 amOh FFS, it was a bog standard 3 litre Diesel, tom66 looked up the registration plate on the UK DVLA website! Stop trying to distort FACTS

author: EPAIII
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2023, 02:05:08 pm
content: If I was distorting facts, I apologize.Have you ever seen diesel fuel burn? I have and those videos looked nothing like it. And a standard extinguisher should have had no problem putting it out. But, if it was reported as a pure diesel, then believe it if you will. I just don't know. And I really don't trust everything that is reported, just because it is reported.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2023, 02:27:21 pm
content: Quote from: EPAIII on December 24, 2023, 02:05:08 pmYou're not the first person who has conflated a diesel car fire with a diesel *fuel* fire. There's plenty of things on a modern diesel or petrol car that can burn that don't involve fuel or fuel systems. For instance, if the DPF is plugged and the computer hasn't recognised this condition, it's possible for exhaust components to get hot enough to ignite adjacent parts. Alternatively, it could have been a 12V electrical system fault or a seized brake. Or the owner might have smoked a cigarette and dropped it in the interior without realising. It really only takes some plastic, interior fabrics, coolant, ATF/oil or fuel then to feed the fire and you have a full vehicle fire.It's not much different to a BEV in that case really. I wouldn't be surprised if the majority of BEV fires have nothing to do with the main battery. Obviously once the vehicle is fully involved the battery can begin to contribute.

author: JPortici
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2023, 03:26:34 pm
content: Quote from: johansen on December 24, 2023, 02:47:55 amthey aren'tQuotebecause of that. Little engines pushed to the limit, crazy high temperatures, plus a small electric drive also pushed to the limit and small li-ion pack crammed somewhere. What could possibly go wrong?Quoteunfortunately, they do catch fire a lot but it's rarely reported. EV catching fire is better news.In the comments above you have probably links to ford and the RHD kuga. jesus christ

author: JPortici
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2023, 03:33:10 pm
content: Quote from: EPAIII on December 24, 2023, 02:05:08 pmWhen a diesel car catches fire it's usually because of a crack or another leak in the oil circuit. oil goes in the intake, the oil catches fire and the engine keeps revving higher and higher. oil is pushed by the pump that is driven by the timing belt... you can see how it is self sustaining and pretty quickly one of three things are going to happen:one, you are extremely lucky and you cut the ignition, the air intake valve closes before it melts in position (but you have about five seconds to understand what's happening and counteract)two, the engine revs so high that the whole thing seizesthree, burning oil comes out of the ignition, spills somewhere else and everything catches fire.Bonus: The moment the interior catches fire, you have casted fireball.

author: G7PSK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2023, 03:46:55 pm
content: "When a diesel car catches fire it's usually because of a crack or another leak in the oil circuit. oil goes in the intake, the oil catches fire and the engine keeps revving higher and higher. oil is pushed by the pump that is driven by the timing belt... you can see how it is self sustaining and pretty quickly one of three things are going to happen:one, you are extremely lucky and you cut the ignition, the air intake valve closes before it melts in position (but you have about five seconds to understand what's happening and counteract)two, the engine revs so high that the whole thing seizesthree, burning oil comes out of the ignition, spills somewhere else and everything catches fire."Reading the above tells me one thing and one thing only, someone does not understand how compression engine work and the sequence of events when one goes into runaway.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2023, 05:04:37 pm
content: Quote from: johansen on December 24, 2023, 07:29:39 amAnd in how many of those was the fire the cause or merely a factor in a high speed collision?And I'll ask again: Where's the reporting of the other 4600+ fires which simply must be occuring?

author: CJay
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2023, 08:18:18 pm
content: Quote from: EPAIII on December 24, 2023, 02:05:08 pmYes, I have, I've had the misfortune to see plenty of vehicles on fire (all ICE) including a rather expensive Lamborghini which belnged to a soccer star.I've seen more than a few diesels burn too, usually as a result of runaway and once they get going pretty much every fluid that can burn does, spilling burning engine oil, hydraulic fluid and diesel everywhere.

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2023, 02:56:07 am
content: I'm trying to see this in light of all the criticism. That is, all the criticism of the reviewer / host of the video. Sure his comments can be harsh....but he is talking about ARROGANCE, basically, and in light of some very real and dangerous differences, as that cement truck is basically conducting testing...testing better done in, um, err, PRIVATE!Ok, it's irritating the way some of the video is delivered, but please don't think I care, or not, if the dude is ego driven. His message really is the arrogance of that particular EV producer, and the 'Green / Woke' aspects put it over the top (arrogance-wise).Took me a minute to understand his points made regarding Transportation Safety and driver safety, and how absolutely critical such care and proper attitude.I'm seeing such reckless additude approach in other venues, these days. That host, ego or not, points out some concepts, like having proper tests (in remote areas) as absolute necessary, and thats not happening that way, but on public roads.Sorry, but the video host (ie Auto Expert) is pointing out some serious-sss shhi.I'd take (his) ego over the arrogance.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2023, 04:15:23 am
content: Quote from: RJSV on December 26, 2023, 02:56:07 amHe is also arrogant!

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 26, 2023, 11:39:07 pm
content: Quote from: vk6zgo on December 26, 2023, 04:15:23 amIf Catogan is completely wrong and it wasn't an EV, then as a creator I for one would have removed the video. But that's just me.

author: lezginka_kabardinka
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2023, 05:52:55 am
content: We’re ALL arrogant in different aspects. Who cares. Human nature. If you’re rude (and civil and kind, and a real man) you say sorry.

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2023, 12:24:11 am
content: Quote from: Monkeh on December 24, 2023, 05:04:37 pmMany of those stories I'm reading from that site, they died from the high speed crash. There is even one article that says "Tesla hits fire hydrant and burns" then I read the link and there was no mention of a fire at all... just a DUI driver that hit a tesla.If anything, this would be an argument that we should limit all production car top speeds and acceleration, which I would be happy with.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2023, 01:07:11 am
content: It's not really surprising that a Tesla catches fire when involved in a 100+ mph crash. Many cars will, and even if they don't,veryfew people are making it out of that car alive, so is it exactly a problem?That's the issue I have with that website.Tesla catching fire in a garage spontaneously or whilst driving = that's bad.Tesla being driven recklessly, crashes, occupant dies and vehicle burns = meh, Darwin's thinning the gene pool.Yet they don't distinguish the two nor provide an easy way to filter them.

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2023, 02:31:08 am
content: Last few posts yield some interesting data, if you use a text sampling technique. Outlined like this:1.). Grab a random sample. In this case grab the last 5 posts, maybe with some minor filtering.2.). If a text sentence mentions the OP saying, in this case, "...they don't actually extinguish a battery fire..." ...Then that's a good 'hit'.Also maybe mentions "...burning at 2500° F. enough to melt steel...rather than 750° F fordiesel fueled fire...". That also is counted as a 'hit' because it's direct from the OP.Now then, what would be counted if the small text sample quotes a seemingly related point, just not directly from OP, AND strongly stays tightly linked. Like for example if unrelated fires in an industrial battery waste dump ALSO achieve the steel-melting high temperatures. That's a good hit.What wouldn't count, in your little informal tally, is quoting data from a crash...who died, or who didn't die, in a crash. That's A MISS, and if you do this survey correctly, you can start to count the little tests up, yay or nay.Reading the last few recent posts, there is very little mention, of any 'steel melting' hazards. Well gee whizz, the OP sure did mention that dynamic, as pretty darn significant.You can build up a small, informal table, and then, whattayaknow: The OP posts discussed 'steel melting' while the responses, you note, seem to divert away from that failure mode, instead substituting a seemingly same concept.But melting structural steel isn't the same as a Tesla driver dying in a high speed crash...even if the driver suffers the 2500° F burns.See what I mean ? There are ways to sample text (especially in political discourse) to obtain a crude measure of subtle diversions, vs staying directly on-topic. It's harder, here in this topic, to maintain discussion on that 'steel melting' structural risk, when a responder wants to shift to 'high speed crashes', out on open road somewheres.And, since we are in the subject, what high speed 100 mph + crashes are there, down inside a 3 level building parking basement?Text sampling filters can quantify that sort of B.S. feeding. And I'm just a mere amateur.

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2023, 03:30:20 am
content: There's likely a technical term, in professional debate, for creating a SCORE, of the 'quality' of treatment a topic gets, in the numerous responses.Interestingly, a properly set-up AI could do these sorts of surveys, of transparency in the nightly media newscast. I bet the vocal analysis will eventually handle complex 'cues' and audio nuances, while attempting to do cursory judgements.But in just analyzing text, you could get a report, such as saying:1.). No response given, to question about temperature range being catastrophic.2.) (for example) 5 of the response statements diverted to off-topic or effectively off-topic arguments.3.). 3 of the responders questioned the validity of OP's posts in general (debate people probably would term that as 'impeachment' or invalidation of OP's presentation.That's a tough one, I'm maybe so mixed on the whole 'character' thing, as to just throw that factor out of the survey."OP has lied before, and some people don't trust him"...it's a start, of an unproven 'maybe'.At any rate you would be, eventually, able to say or give a quantifying measure, of the whole of the response the subject matter is getting.Might get a result like: 4 positives, reinforcing the (several) statements by OP, and 9 diverting concepts, that don't contain reinforcement.Then, you still have the task of, in my example here, figuring out if (or which) of the slightly off-topic mentions are simply B.S. diversions or distracting arguments, vs which mentions are 'promising' enough to count them.I don't think that saying 'he stinks' is effective, but if you get 100 accusations, yet unproven, instincts start to kick in. You've got to be carefull of the 'mob' dynamic.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2023, 10:10:26 pm
content: Quote from: thm_w on December 28, 2023, 12:24:11 amThat appears to be the link for the incident below - in which nobody in a Tesla died and nothing the Tesla did contributed in any way shape or form. In other words, meaningless drivel listed just because the name Tesla appeared in the article.They probably meant this one:https://diyatvusa.com/2023/07/14/amrik-wander-arvind-ram-die-in-california-car-crash/In which someone drove at high speed into multiple obstacles and a fire resulted. Which of course has never happened to an ICE vehicle.. except all the times it does happen. Every single day.