BEng or MEng or BEng & MSc? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: norand
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 07, 2019, 09:32:37 pm
content: Hi all,I'm a young 2nd year undergraduate enrolled in a BEng at Loughborough University (in Electronics & Electrical Engineering) and have lately been questioning whether I should be doing an MEng/MSc? I know this topic has been posted before and I have read through the replies - but I feel times are moving forward and wanted to re-bring this topic to life.I am currently on placement for a Large defence company where I have been working during my summer breaks for the first two years of University, and have also had experience in other smaller electronics companies doing PCB respins and little design tasks to keep me busy during time away from University. I know for certain that I want to become an Electronics design engineer, which I agree is a very broad statement in itself - but I just enjoy playing with all aspects of electronics and feel I haven't been exposed to enough electronics to decide what I want to pursue my career in.Back to the chase - When picking my modules for my Final Year of the BEng, I noticed there was quite a few modules that I felt would give me the most broad knowledge to becoming a well rounded electronic design engineer. However, I was limited by the amount of options and I could take and felt by not doing some of them I could be missing out on something that could be really useful in times to come. It turns out I could pick up the modules in my 4th year if I decided to do an MEng instead.When mentioning this to several people on placement it seems to give the following outcomes:1) Just stick with the BEng and get out there and learn! You can never learn everything, I haven't got a masters.2) As suggested by my Design Manager on placement - Get the company to pay for my MSc (however - this involves doing it alongside a job and effectively being tied to the company for 4/5 Years whilst I complete this).3) Do the MEng, learn everything I feel I need to learn - but miss out on ~£27k grad salary earnings for the year that I would most likely never re-cooperate, and be a further £15k in debt, but be able to move freely between companies after graduate schemes.So my thoughts are - an MEng is most likely not going to help me get a job, experience will always outweigh this. However the academic content will help me become better at my job and give me a more rounded appreciation for a variety of Electronic topics. Also - in the current day & age,majority of young engineers have degrees(Either through apprenticeships or through the traditional route) and a fair few go straight for the MEng. As jobs become harder to find, the MEng may make me stick out in a room full of people? I feel as if the BEng has been a bit devalued from what it was say 30 years ago due to the majority of young people who have one? Agree or disagree?Note: I have been invited back to the defence company for a Graduate Scheme; however am unsure whether I will take it as I personally feel working in a small company such as a electronic design consultancy that does lots of rapid design revisions would be a better grounding for a career as an Electronic Design Engineer. This would help me find out what area of electronics I do enjoy the most - however companies like this are harder to come by and this could be another vote for how an MEng could help me. The Defence company does look very good on my CV, however the nature of design process in big companies like this is slow - and I feel does potentially limit what I could learn elsewhere in the same time(I may be wrong!).Any help would be really appreciated as I know this a very open question!Thanks in advance.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 07, 2019, 10:06:08 pm
content: Can't help with the rest, but:QuoteA large company is more able to take the hit of someone not being continuously productive (such as when learning stuff). In a small company, you need to be focused on getting the job out the door to pay your wages. At least, that's how it seems to me, but it would depend on the company a lot - they may see you as an investment or figure you're just there to pick their brains and then push off to greener pastures.

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 07, 2019, 10:08:27 pm
content: Quote from: norand on May 07, 2019, 09:32:37 pmThis depends on how the contract is written. What I've seen in NA is 50% reimbursement on course completion and the other 50% 2 years after. So you are not completely tied to the company for 4 years. If this is an option I would give it a shot, start with one or two classes and see how you do.If you enjoy being in school and taking classes then go for it. If not, like me, you would rather be working and prefer to learn on your own, don't.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 07, 2019, 10:11:34 pm
content: I think the answer depends a lot on how attached to the UK you are. As you noted, a bachelors degree is almost worthless these days, and that's pretty much true globally. So the issue is really about whether you can thrive on experience alone, or whether you need a degree that has some significance in the international market. As the UK electronics industry continues to contract, most engineers either leave the profession or leave the country. A lot of multi-nationals won't even look at CVs from people without a masters degree when they are recruiting engineers (they will obviously consider lower qualifications for technician posts). So, moving abroad can be quite hard these days without a masters degree. Decades ago, when a UK bachelors degree really meant something, it used to be easy, but times change.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 08, 2019, 01:04:53 am
content: Quote from: norand on May 07, 2019, 09:32:37 pmPick one's thatinterest you, not ones that you think will give you "broad knowledge".If you want more classes, MIT have their entire online degrees available to watch, go watch them.QuoteAh, the illusion that university teaches you stuff that will be useful in the real worldQuoteA masters or PhD won't teach you much more than then your normal degree. What it does do is potentially get you an easier step up the career ladder, maybe.QuoteWhy not, if you can, do it. Generally you shouldn't stay at any company less than a couple of years anyway (looks bad on the resume). 4/5 years is nothing when you are young, and again, will look good on your resume.QuoteGenerally. But depends on the company, the industry and the country and culture etc.QuoteMaybe, but I wouldn't be so sure of that. More often than not what you learn in your Masters will have little if any relevance to any position you get. Unless you do a master in some specific filed and then go into that field. But again, I think you are under the all too common illusion that university is going to teach you practical stuff and make you this awesome engineer, it's generally won't. It'll give you a good foundation of course, but that's about all.QuoteAgree for the degree, it used to mean a lot more, but now everyone has one. Some say the Masters is the new degree minimum. But it's really of most relevance in your early years.All things being said, a master is better to have than a degree, if you can get it, get it.QuoteDo what you enjoy, not what you think will look good on your resume.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 08, 2019, 01:06:20 am
content: Quote from: thm_w on May 07, 2019, 10:08:27 pmYes, a lot of people find they don't enjoy university study, in which case get your degree and get out as soon as possible.

author: chickenHeadKnob
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 08, 2019, 02:45:58 am
content: Quote from: norand on May 07, 2019, 09:32:37 pmThe three times younglings asked for similar guidance I told the first one to switch from Computer Engineering which had a massive influx at that period to specializing in RF and have less job competition. To the second I suggested he switch from first year electrical to chemical engineering - for a similar reason. The third wanted to do a Msc. but only because he didn't have a good job lined up. I told him to keep plugging away at the job search. Surprisingly all three followed my advise and ended up very happy for it.For current times I would recommend to stay with a B.Eng unless you are really fond of the university experience, then go on and do it as a personal indulgence. Don't expect to recover the time+money in later wages. Also for a grad in the developed world I would recommend specializing in power or mems if those kind of options are available in course tracks, or simply choose any path away from the thundering herd. With so much manufacturing having been off-shored I don't envy recent grads.As far as trying to get a masters and working a full time job, don't even think about it. Every colleague of mine that has attempted this failed, they had to quit one or the other. This is with initial full cooperation from the employer to make "allowances". If you are in private industry the employer wants you full time + unpaid overtime no matter what else they say. That is unless you get lucky and happen to work for the micky mouse outfit that employs Treez.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 08, 2019, 04:09:19 am
content: Quote from: chickenHeadKnob on May 08, 2019, 02:45:58 amGood advice.QuotePower specialty is a very good option if that interests you, and there is generally more money to be made in that industry as it's less "sexy" so less competition.I can remember power industry folk pleading with us on a student industry visit to join the industry as it was so hard from them to get new grads in that space.Often these days these power industry threads are disguised under some form of renewable energy tract or some such.Quick search:AU$160k for a principle power engineer is really good money compared to Joe Average electronics engineer. The power and mining industries etc pay big money + travelhttps://www.seek.com.au/job/38972706?Even just designing power supplies is $130khttps://www.seek.com.au/job/38972485

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 08, 2019, 05:23:02 am
content: He's not going to slot into principal engineer or senior design engineer straight from studies, though, is he? Going to be a few years yet, and things may change in the meantime, so perhaps the interesting feature of those positions would be how long those salaries have been at that level - will they still be equivalent by the time he gets there?

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 08, 2019, 03:06:46 pm
content: Quote from: dunkemhigh on May 08, 2019, 05:23:02 amSwitched mode power work, whether supplies, or equipment control (e.g. motor control), has paid well for decades, because few people do it well. The real issue going forwards is not whether the work stops paying well. Its whether the work will disappear from someone's locality.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 08, 2019, 03:17:11 pm
content: OK[Thinks about retraining and renewing the passport]

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 08, 2019, 03:43:14 pm
content: Firstly, congratulations on a well thought out description of your situation and a well articulated description of the dilemmas you face. Unfortunately that is a rarity, but OTOH it bodes well for your future.Quote from: norand on May 07, 2019, 09:32:37 pmAt this point it is useful to consider how easy/difficult it would be to pick up that expertise by yourself, either on the job or in your own time. Better jobs allow and expect you to pick up things on the job, less good jobs either don't or are repetitive and limiting.QuoteIt used to be the case (and probably still is) that the third point is definitely valid for PhDs. The only valid reason for doing a PhD was because you wanted to.Whether that is (still) the case for a 1 year masters is unclear to me.Given the financial "penalty" of another year, staying on at your existing company seems attractive - but only if you would enjoy working there and could get experience that would enable you to get the jobafterthat.QuoteIn this country it is reasonable to expect that a competent HR department and hiring manager would be able to distinguish a degree from a decent place (like Loughborough) from other places (which I won't name!).Overseas companies are less likely to be able to do that, so as others have noted a higher degree becomes more important to them.In addition, getting visas is easier when you have a higher degree because it is easier to "prove" to immigration staff that you have "specialist expertise".QuoteWhile a company can indeed look good on a CV, what youachievedat a company looks even better. In a large companywhereyou work is as important as the company.Beware also of ending up with "5 years experience", which on examination is clearly "one years experience repeated five times". OTOH, also beware of a CV that looks like you dabbled in a lot of things without making an interesting contribution.There are two career trajectories that are equally valid but have differing advantages and disadvantages:become a world expert in a narrow field (e.g. Xerox toner mechanisms). You'll be well paid and in demand, but what happens when Xerox goes out of business or toner mechanisms are commodaties?become a jack of all trades and master of none. You won't be as well paid, but it will be easier to get another job and to demonstrate that you can learn fast whatever a new job requires]I've tended to take the latter path and jobs that will enable me to have good stuff on my CV for the job after that. Usually I've managed itSo, no answers, but perhaps some alternative questions and viewpoints to consider.Good luck.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 08, 2019, 04:02:27 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on May 08, 2019, 03:43:14 pmThis is an important point these days. Bachelor degrees are now so watered down and commonplace they will no longer help you get a visa for many countries. Don't expect work experience to help much with a visa, as the people awarding visas wouldn't know high value experience from low value. Sandpaper is now very important for international employment, and likely to become more so.Quote from: tggzzz on May 08, 2019, 03:43:14 pmI think both the strategies you describe are weak. The winning long term approach is to be pretty useful in several areas, and a master of one or two. Be prepared to polish the ones you are merely useful at the areas where you are a master start to evaporate. Never try to be too broad, and end up not really useful in any one area. Never try to be too narrow, and have a rather fragile future. Even if you never do extensive work in many areas, its a huge career and personal benefit to be have the working knowledge to be able to interact effectively with a wide range of other people.In university try to focus on gaining strategic knowledge, rather than the tactical stuff that you hope will make you more useful in your first job. You'll still be getting benefit from strategic knowledge when the market for your tactical knowledge has long evaporated. Too much focus on tactical knowledge at college will leave you going back to basics in new areas too frequently during a 40 year career. Over the last 40 years I've seen a big shift away from strategic knowledge among graduates, to the point where their expertise looks more like the kinds of thing you pick up through your working life on short courses, than the focus on fundamentals we used to expect from a university.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 08, 2019, 08:01:54 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on May 08, 2019, 01:04:53 amIn some companies, particularly larger companies, the MS is going to carry a lot of weight. Over time they won't even notice that your course list doesn't even resemble your job tasks. It's something that separates you from the herd of BS grads.If you can work it out, I would recommend the MS route regardless of which discipline. MSEE covers a lot of territory from utility generation to space stations and everything in between.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 08, 2019, 08:12:48 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on May 08, 2019, 04:02:27 pmI completely agree. The world is shades of gray, not black and white!QuoteThis is getting boring: I agreeI've mostly been lucky (by design and hard work!) to avoid working with such half-graduates. The worst ones think they are clever that they know which button to press in their IDE, but don't realise how much they don't know, e.g. (to mention a few omissions that have surprised me) priority inversion, Byzantine Generals, eight fallacies of distributed computing, metastability, various "degrees" of ACID, other levels of the networking protocol stack, memory hierarchies. And then there's electronics

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 09, 2019, 01:28:10 am
content: Quote from: dunkemhigh on May 08, 2019, 05:23:02 amOf course, 5+ years and you can be there perhaps.Mining and power can have cycles, but it isn't going anywhere, and it's never going to be a "sexy" field to get into thus keeping competition relatively low.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2019, 02:37:10 am
content: Quote from: norand on May 07, 2019, 09:32:37 pmYou need to consider that an engineering training can broadly take you in one of two directions: either into technical specialism, or into management and wider responsibilities. The second is by far the most financially rewarding, and potentially more personally rewarding too. Do you want to be responsible only for what crosses your desk, or responsible for a lot of things going on around you and decisions your company takes? It's very difficult to see this perspective as a student, but it becomes clearer a few years into your career.So a Graduate Scheme can be very valuable in training you far beyond what university studies can achieve. If given a choice between such a scheme in a big company vs. working for a small company, I would strongly advise taking advantage of the graduate training scheme. You can take advantage of what you learn to go back to the small company environment later on as a consultant or even a stakeholder in a startup, or you may find the opportunities for advancement in the big company so enticing that you stay there.Bear in mind that the great engineers of the past like Brunel were not draughtsmen sitting behind a desk. They were movers and shakers, working with management, people and finance.Today you think you want to do electronics design, and maybe that will turn out to be what really gets you up in the morning. But I am not sure you can really know right now, so you should keep your options open.About the question you asked: I would always suggest maximizing your qualifications early on while you have the chance. So doing the MEng would make sense, unless it was financially punitive. Would the MEng be required to get into the graduate training scheme? If so, I think you should seriously consider it.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2019, 08:25:33 am
content: Quote from: IanB on May 09, 2019, 02:37:10 amThose are valid points, but there can be other ways of getting the benefits.For my second job I decided I didn't know whether I wanted to stay technical, so I found a job in a contract R&D house with ~150 people. It required me to do everything from initial client contact, requirements elicitation, writing contracts (technical and legal), project management, plus all the technical stuff from beginning to end. Great fun, very educational, in the end I decided I preferred to stay technical.I got lucky (or made my own luck), so I can't recommend that as a guaranteed career path!

author: Wilksey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2019, 09:20:45 am
content: I believe it depends on what you want to get out of it at the end of the day. I can only speak from my own experiences, I did software at a HND level, but I did electronics at City + Guilds level, and BND level, BND being higher on the food chain for those who don't know, and I learnt more about electronics in the C+G than I did on the BND as the C+G was hands on, the BND was purely theory, so I switched to software for the HND.I went to look at some universities, decided quite quickly that most of the people were toffee nosed tossers and decided i'd be better off suited and booted with my new shiny HND and go and get some experience, that was over 15 years ago now, and I did electronics as a hobby then slowly started utilising my hobby as a work skill.I have been for job interviews where they state a degree level candidate is required, given them a rundown of my experience, and skills and got offered several jobs, in fact all the jobs i've applied for i've been offered, we are only taking about 5 or 6 in total, but I can say for my situation that it worked out for me.I spent 5 years at college moving between electronics and software and in the end I just couldn't be arsed with any more "education" and figured I needed experience and money more than a degree.What I will say, is, whatever route you decide to go down, it's not always easy, but try and find a company that will value your skills, I did, and after a year of being at the bottom of the food chain I was pretty much free to design things the way I wanted and was seen as one of the go to people for getting stuff done, rather than just talked to about it, it might take a few interviews and a few changes, but worth it in the end.There is also some terminology issues surrounding the levels, some companies, see a "principal" as someone who organises things rather than does them, which does not interest me at all, i'd rather be balls deep in a logic analyser than falling asleep drooling on a table in a "meeting".But I am speaking purely from my own experiences, others have their own experiences to share, and one day you will tell yours!Good luck!

author: Maruku
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2019, 11:01:13 am
content: As far as Southwest goes, there seems to be quite a few jobs around but on the other hand I see many people changing jobs quite often here as well. Then again this is probably the less interesting place to be if you are looking for work in the UK in general, but you end up having more options/less competition because of the lack of interest. I live here just because I like the country side and its calm until all of the UK caravans invade Devon and CornwallMy experience is that nobody ever cared about my degree, I have none btw, only NVQ3 in Electronics. I started working in the Electronics industry about 5 years ago, and I had to work my way up from a Technician position to Engineer which took barely one year in my first company, I was fairly lucky because a lot of Engineers left and the company needed someone to fill the space very quickly. But I also worked with electronics as a hobbyist ever since I can remember, cause my father repaired all sorts of consumer electronics back in the day when it was feasible.Right after I finished my A levels I got into IT and worked in the business for 5 years and always thought about getting into electronics. Even on interviews in the IT, nobody ever cared that I had no degree. You just have to be confident and prove them that you can learn/do the job and do the job passionately.In terms of career path, don't worry about it too much now, do what you feel is fun at the moment. It will probably change later in your life and it will be more clear where you want to end up. Also don't focus on the money much as well, you may like the reward but if your job sucks then whats the point anyway?About knowledge. Well you will learn until the very last day and forget a lot of shit in the process too, everything can be learned with the right attitude. One thing I need to improve on is writing down what I do at work when learning new things so I can get back to it later. My notes are a bit shite at the moment so that needs some workLastly I see defence, medical and other specialised/nieche industries as the most interesting because they invest heavily in R&D and cost is not as important. Working for the consumer market is a bit boring but challenging as well, trying to get the BoM cost right etc. But to be honest I am a bit annoyed reading about AI, IoT, Automotive and smart all day everyday. But that's what the economy is driving.All in all do what makes you happy! Good luck!

author: norand
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2019, 07:37:59 pm
content: Quote from: Wilksey on May 09, 2019, 09:20:45 amHaha my thoughts exactly!Thank-you all for the advice much appreciated. I thought I'd add some extra notes to this:There is a small company in mind that I wrote to, to ask for some experience. This company is a electronic design consultancy that works on everything from Power Electronics, Defence, Medical etc. which I believe will give me a taster for all (and also sounds super interesting!). A contractor at my current company recommended them to me, and said they are brilliant for Graduates, and allowing prototyping of every step along the way (Actual hands on Electronics and a lot less paperwork - Dream job!). This company recently offered me an interview for a summer placement (3 month internship)! So hopefully this will give me the incentive to decide whether I prefer bigger or small companies after I graduate.I'm swaying more towards the BEng, as I have decided that the modules I will miss out on I may be able to teach myself with Dev Cards, Books etc. (e.g. basic FPGA work), and will also pick up a lot more on the job. The industry is forever changing, so I will have to do this along my career anyway. If I decide that I am loosing out on jobs because I do not have a Masters, or feel I would benefit - I will put a case forward to a company on getting them to pay for an MSc. The big company I'm currently working for says I only need to stay for 2 years after degree completion to get it for free (less time and you have to pay less back), and will pay for me to spend up to 20% of my time doing the degree (alongside my day-to-day job) which is pretty awesome if you ask me! But for now I believe I'd be happy to go out to work and get designing real products.I think I was worried that missing out one or two modules would restrict me, but realised everyone is going to be in the same boat as you can't learn everything. For those interested these are the modules I picked for 3rd Year: EMC, Power Electronics for Renewables, Microwave Comms, Intro to DSPs & Digital Interfacing & Instrumentation (Signal conditioning and Micro interfacing) - all super useful interesting topics I believe.Modules I believe I missed out on: Principles of Digital Comms (which I believe there is a course for this on MIT as Dave suggested), Electronic Systems Design with FPGAs (should be able to pick up basics on a dev card), Digital & State Space control (May never even end up using it? May be wrong) and Real time software engineering / embedded software (Again can learn in my own time just to get a board up and running - as I do not fancy sitting at a desk every day writing code).Thanks again everyone, I really appreciate all your replies. If you have any extra thoughts based on this reply - please let me know!

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2019, 08:33:11 pm
content: Quote from: norand on May 09, 2019, 07:37:59 pmIt is usually beneficial to find a way to "test the waters". Personal recommendation is helpfuliffthe reasons also apply to you.Another technique is to apply for many jobs during your final year (I applied for 11 and had 19 offers of interview, for reasons that are boring). Going to 11 interviews in 11 companies had two benefits: I honed/refined my interview technique, and I could sense the flavour of many companies. The latter made me more certain about my choices - particularly where Ididn'twant to work.QuoteOf those, designing with FPGAs is one that you can easily miss without loss. The fundamentals of digital design are the same whatever technology is being used, and the differences are (a) which IDE buttons to push and (b) what the IDE/HDL can do for you. The former you will have to relearn for any new FPGA/IDE, the latter is evolving rapidly and so you'll have to relearn later it anyway.The digital comms might be more difficult to pick up later, I don't know what is meant by state space control, and embedded software is very different to PC application software.

author: Wilksey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 10, 2019, 09:22:19 am
content: The only thing I would add, and of course, all of this and the route you take is ultimately up to you, but don't try and learn everything at once, honestly the thing with electronics (and other professions alike) is that you never stop learning, and if you try and learn everything at once you'll never use it and when you come to use it you'll find you have to learn it all over again.Pace yourself and figure out what parts of electronics interest you the most and learn from that, an internship is a good way to go as it'll introduce you to new concepts and how to apply your knowledge to an actual product / industry.Theory is good, and necessary, but actually doing something and figuring out why it isn't working and fault finding that issue or issues is very rewarding.As an old colleague once said to me JFDI...Just Fking Do It!

author: dzseki
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 11, 2019, 09:34:37 pm
content: Whatever degreee you have, if you are fresh from the university employers will look at you with a sharp eye. And most probably they would more prefer -for the given job- a person that has some real work experience even if he/she has one step lower education. Fortunately you only have to get over on this once...And if you are in the "market" already, then your prior education means very little.I've stopped at BSc in EE, which is I believe quite similar to BEng.A story of mine:With three years of work experience I applied to a job for a company that was founded by ex-university personnel and was focused in space/satellite electronics. First I've attached one hobby project and evaluation that I've made to my CV, for them to see that I am interested in the art. -> I was invited for an interview (held by the founders). Soon they raised the question why I stopped with BSc, I've told them my point of view, that is: while MSc would give more "life-like" lab classes and more advanced math and physics education I value real life work experience more.On a second round of interview they gave me two exercises, where they wanted to see how I solve problems, in the end I've got the job.That said, there are job offerings where MEng or MSc is indicated as a must, but even then you can show them some plus in your CV that might catch their attention, and even more so if you have say 10+ years of experience nobody cares about your education, most people won't even remember what was it really about anyway...