extreme teardown pr0n - $100K server - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2016, 11:34:19 pm
content: Amazing build quality!

author: eugenenine
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2016, 12:03:47 am
content: I had built a server like that, maybe only 1/3 of the price though, and shipped to a customer then had to go pick it up because UPS damaged in in shipping. There was a big dent in the box at the same height of the bumper on the UPS truck so they couldn't get out of that claim. Had to tear it down, order a new chassis and wait for it to come then reassemble, then ship back again.

author: wkb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2016, 07:09:42 pm
content: Sure nice build quality. I have (professionally) had the opportunity to dismantle various Digital and Sun servers. The biggest beastswere the Sun Enterprise 10000 (the design Sun bought off Cray) and the Digital Equipment Alphaserver 8400 "Turbolaser". Bothimpressive to hack intoWilko

author: Maxlor
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2016, 07:19:24 pm
content: Can't help but think it's ridiculously over-engineered, driving up cost, for no good reason. It's not like longevity is really that important, that system isn't even 10 years old and it's already being scrapped.

author: sync
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2016, 09:36:35 pm
content: It's over-engineered for reliability. Downtime costs money. Sometimes a lot of money. And the software could easily costs several times of the hardware. Then the hardware costs are not that important anymore.

author: wkb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2016, 10:02:48 pm
content: Quote from: Maxlor on February 18, 2016, 07:19:24 pmYou don't get it. This kind of hardware e.g. runs stock exchanges. The cost of the hardware is negligable compared to the cost of downtime. 10 year old computers are ancient so it being scrapped is really no surprise.

author: Maxlor
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2016, 11:03:29 pm
content: True, I don't have experience with hardware in environments where high reliability is required. It seems to me though that something like a stock exchange wouldn't depend on a single server, even one as well made as this one, for its critical infrastructure, since it'd still be a single point of failure.And then there's the features that are just expensive to do, for no real benefit. Like, shaped heatsink fins, or custom stainless steel screws, or gold plated CPUs, or 5mm thick PCBs, or mechanically beautiful but terribly expensive PCI card holders. I think they made these things simply to please the people that buy servers in this class.I wouldn't mind working on the team creating these things though, it's very satisfying to strive for utmost excellence and be able to ignore cost.

author: rx8pilot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2016, 11:09:18 pm
content: 128GB RAM 10 years ago in an enterprise configuration must have been major cash.

author: HAL-42b
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2016, 11:20:40 pm
content: The ironmongery is quite good on this one.I think the chassis and the power supplies can be reused as a welder

author: KE5FX
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2016, 11:27:46 pm
content: Quote from: wkb on February 18, 2016, 10:02:48 pmTo the extent hardware quality is important, fault tolerance is even more important. An array of cheap-ass machines with proper load balancing and fault tolerance will usually be more cost-effective than a single machine built to last a hundred years, even in performance-critical applications.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2016, 11:30:25 pm
content: So how many layers should the PCB have? IDK, lets have all, that the software supports.We need a 100mA 3,3V voltage rail! Well we either use a 100W DC-DC module, or a linear regulator to create it, because in that case they don't notice we designed something as mundane as a power supply.I can only scratch my head, when the memory is a meter away from the CPU, just so it is replaceable faster. Surely there must have been some better way to do it.I'm not surprised that these manufacturers ultimately go out of business.

author: jeroen74
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2016, 11:37:24 pm
content: The PCBs are so thick so all signals can be routed. There must be thousands of nets, most of them controlled impedance, 24+ layers, 3 oz copper, tens of thousands of holes. These PCBs are not your average Arduino shield. I think they actually are a significant part of the cost.All the fancy screws, heatsinks and the sheet metal casing cost almost nothing; those dummy PCI cards are maybe $2 worth of FR4 material.

author: HAL-42b
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2016, 11:44:43 pm
content: There is a possibility there are components buried inside the PCB. A while ago a thick board manufacturer was advertising they can do that.

author: Maxlor
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2016, 12:00:24 am
content: Quote from: jeroen74 on February 18, 2016, 11:37:24 pmLook at the size of those boards vs the number of components. They are not dense. If there are indeed that many layers, then it's not because they're required in order to be able to route things. I'd guess 6 layer, then again they might do crazy things like put ground and power layers in between every signal layer, just because.

author: rx8pilot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2016, 12:04:30 am
content: Quote from: NANDBlog on February 18, 2016, 11:30:25 pmI wouldn't say that a power supply is mundane. My day job is designing high-reliability power supplies and power management and it is a challenge. One of my friends is a power electronics engineer at JPL with hardware on Mars and other missions - it takes a solid team to get the reliability AND the performance needed with a tremendous margin of safety.The need for power may be mundane, the the details of the delivery are not. I am sure the company that paid the bill for this box had an enormous amount of money counting on it 24/7. The expectation is for the engineering to be treated as a life and death matter.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2016, 12:23:13 am
content: Quote from: Maxlor on February 19, 2016, 12:00:24 amThe same guy took an angle grinder to a HP server backplane, and found 26 layers, with planes between every signal layer.one thing I noticed on the server boards is that there wasn;t much routing on the outer layers - most parts had their leads going to nearby vias & disappearing to inner layers

author: retrolefty
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2016, 12:31:50 am
content: Well I for one really appreciate seeing what a price is no object (or at least compeitive with the specific market) piece of electronics. No single engineer could design and product that thing. Mechanical engineering would be eccential. Wonder what the PHB contributed?

author: rx8pilot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2016, 01:20:39 am
content: The hot-swap PCI carriers are awesome - ensuring a parallel entry/exit so that there is no damage to the system that would need a shutdown to repair.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2016, 01:55:42 am
content: Just found one of those CPU modules cheap on Ebay - I just have to see some of that stuff first-hand!

author: sleemanj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2016, 02:11:24 am
content: Got to love the extreme modularity and on-site hot serviceability on such beasts.

author: Howardlong
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2016, 06:25:12 am
content: Quote from: Maxlor on February 18, 2016, 11:03:29 pmThey don't, depending on the implementation, typically there will be several machines in a load balanced active-active role for resilience plus duplicates at at a secondary site for disaster recovery. The difficulty comes when a single node fails, state is not always fully maintained across the cluster, and you will lose current connections and state on whichever node has gone down.Having said that, in the past I've worked at places that bought Sun because, well, that's what they always bought, but equally they may already have had previous investment in Solaris based solutions in terms of expertise and the software itself, tying them to Sun.Most downtime in my experience at this level has been down to a configuration change going wrong rather than any hardware or physical failure. DNS, for example, is a common one. Nobody wantsthatjob!

author: sportq
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2016, 08:30:41 am
content: I worked from Sun from 2001, through the horrible Oracle acquisition, until last year. That system is the 2nd smallest in the M-series, the largest was the M9000-64 which was two M9000-32 rack cabinets with an monster backplane interconnect of 56 multiway cables. Check it out:(that's the back of the cabinet, the CPU boards are on the front).As to being over-engineered. Two of the customers I worked with who bought M9000's were betting companies. One reckoned 2 seconds of downtime during a big far-eastern sports event (they allow all sorts of strange in-game betting there) would cost them $100,000.The CPU boards were a 2-man lift, and a struggle at that.Pete

author: wkb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2016, 08:48:47 am
content: Quote from: Maxlor on February 18, 2016, 11:03:29 pmOf course they do not depend on a single server. But clusters typically do not failover keeping complete state. So you want to have your individual servers as good as possible.As for the tin: sheet metal etc etc is not expensive,

author: wkb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2016, 08:52:53 am
content: For those interested in what Digital Equipment built in the late 90s and early 21st century:http://people.freebsd.org/~wilko/Alpha-gallery/(Don't tell me that accessibilty stinks, I know)

author: hayatepilot
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2016, 08:56:25 am
content: Nobody ever got fired for buying IBM (or SUN in this case).

author: warp_foo
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 20, 2016, 04:04:27 am
content: Quote from: Maxlor on February 18, 2016, 11:03:29 pmTrue, which is why, for truly critical infrastructure (think trading...), there will be a number of these servers in either a high availability cluster, or a parallel cluster. For those types of workloads, the cost of the hardware is irrelevant. If the cost is too high, then you likely don't need this type of hardware.There is truly no comparison for this type of hardware with more commodity based servers. My last infrastructure project consisted of three IBM P7-795 servers in a fail-over cluster supporting SAP (Hundreds of LPARs...). An example of the just one of the differences: The P7-795 has somewhere in the neighborhood of 15,000 *monitored* components. Any failed or failing part gets reported home to the mothership (IBM), and a replacement is usually on it's way before there is an impact to the business. With a few exceptions, just about every component can be hot swapped. (Some do require preparation - you don't just yank a CPU board out of the chassis.)During my time working with those systems, I don't recall ever taking an outage due to the P-Series hardware.m

author: warp_foo
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 20, 2016, 04:07:36 am
content: Quote from: KE5FX on February 18, 2016, 11:27:46 pmAssuming the workload can be spread across multiple hosts. Web and application servers, easy. Databases take a bit more work. And distributed databases bring on a whole new level of complexity.m

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 20, 2016, 03:39:05 pm
content: Quote from: sportq on February 19, 2016, 08:30:41 amwow - give me a call if you ever hear of one of these being scrapped

author: Kilrah
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 20, 2016, 04:13:14 pm
content: Very interesting teardown, that mechanical construction is magnificent!That MB is the biggest single PCB I've ever seen...

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 20, 2016, 04:39:37 pm
content: Quote from: Maxlor on February 18, 2016, 11:03:29 pmIIRC, those Sun big irons supported hardware partitions for virtual servers. I've used a lot of the smaller (tiny) servers like Netras, but HQ had several E10ks for billing and provisioning (carrier). And if you need high availabilty you would get several servers and a HA solution.If you think that $100k is much, you could have got smaller toys for more money. An ANT20 with STM64 and jitter measurement (portable SDH line tester) for a whopping 600k. A MAX TNT with linecards was around the same (RAS for up to 720 telephone lines, you can fit 3 in a 42U rack).

author: rx8pilot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 20, 2016, 04:39:41 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on February 20, 2016, 03:39:05 pmHopefully a functioning fork lift is being scrapped the day before.....There is more steel in that computer than a regular car.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 20, 2016, 05:30:47 pm
content: Quote from: rx8pilot on February 20, 2016, 04:39:41 pmBut it's all modular, and my local van-rental place has tail-lift vans....

author: gslick
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 20, 2016, 08:08:38 pm
content: Quote from: wkb on February 19, 2016, 08:52:53 amI have one of those AlphaServer ES47 systems.http://people.freebsd.org/~wilko/Alpha-gallery/Marvel_2P/Each CPU board is a dual proc and there is one of those in each rack mount unit. I have two of the rack mount units which are cabled together with huge multiway cables into a quad proc system. You can cable up to four of the rack mount units together into an eight proc ES80 system. Each rack unit maxes out at 16GB, or 32GB for a quad proc ES47 system, or 64GB for an eight proc ES80 system.Similar to the Sun system in the tear down video each rack mount unit has a supervisor control processor board running on standby power which is used to remote admin the system. When the main system powers on with the fans running at full blast it is very loud before they throttle down. Even throttled down the system is loud enough that I haven't really wanted to power it on much to tinker with it. Impressive engineering, but not at the same level as the Sun system here.

author: MrSlack
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 20, 2016, 09:26:58 pm
content: It's amazing really how far things have come. Our standard server build is a relatively low spec 2U HP box (DL380) and you can cram a shit ton in them for under $10k:

author: German_EE
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 21, 2016, 10:42:30 am
content: I could do amazing things with one of those big CPU heatsinks.

author: electr_peter
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 21, 2016, 11:28:49 am
content: That server is built to be reliable, that is very apparent.In other videos it was shown that server PCB has 26 layers (with alternating power/ground solid planes and signal layers). All components seems to be SMT soldered on top/bottom sides or bolted/press fit especially connectors. I do not see anything that is soldered to more than one layer. I cannot find soldered throughole parts on this PCB.It guess designers decided that 26 layer 4mm board is unsolderable for everything but top/bottom SMT parts on top/bottom layers.Can anyone check my assumption? I do not see such massive PCBs very often.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 21, 2016, 01:17:03 pm
content: For connectors press-fit is way more reliable than soldering.

author: electr_peter
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 21, 2016, 05:25:16 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on February 21, 2016, 01:17:03 pmPress fit is better overall, I agree. The question is, can those TH connectors be soldered properly on 26 layer PCB with automated process?

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 21, 2016, 07:20:03 pm
content: Quote from: electr_peter on February 21, 2016, 05:25:16 pmEspecially when half the layers are groundplanes....

author: rx8pilot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 21, 2016, 07:29:22 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on February 21, 2016, 07:20:03 pmWith the effort that went into everything else, I would not be surprised if they created a proprietary process of their own to mount the connectors. While I was working in the aerospace environment, I was stunned how many times I saw a completely proprietary process invented from scratch to accommodate unusual design elements. In my 'normal' world of design, I have to compromise the design to accommodate the available processes. In high value applications, the design is king and they just have to figure out a way to make it happen - even if it is silly expensive.

author: TSL
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 21, 2016, 09:27:08 pm
content: These SPARC servers are highly redundant in their own chassis.PSU's and fans are redundant, CPUs and RAM can be redundant too. You can split an M5000 into two physical domains and/or load COD ( Capacity on Demand) on the System Controller ( the XSFC)With two physical domains you can run cluster across them and then cluster an additional machine somewhere else.CPU fails or RAM fails - no problem automatically stage it out, keep running, automatically lodge a service request and notify customer.Even though there are two CPU's on a riser, you can instruct the XSFC to evacuate that riser so you can pull it.PCI cards and card cages all hot swappableSPARC servers also have the ability to run in both very hot and very cold environments. the NETRA label is given specifically to part of the server line that have additional engineering to earn themselves ratings for extreme environments and withstand earth quakes to a certain extent.Some years back there was a demo of a Netra 1125, secured in a paint shaker, running quite happily.SPARC servers will quite happily run in an air temp of 50C where most x86 boxen will have shut down.I've seen this exercised in two data centers where the aircon failed and the only thing still running where the SPARC servers.The old V880's had a warning temp of 110C and a shutdown temp of 128C !!

author: MrSlack
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 21, 2016, 11:28:08 pm
content: Sun kit wasn't and isn't even under Oracle as redundant as it should be. There was a major design flaw on the starfire series: If the PROM on the service processor on the crapped itself it took the entire system out. There's something nasty in every Sun platform so far right back to sun4c/sun4m which TBH made no promises.Also redundancy is about lots of cheap machines these days. We can replace any component in our infrastructure without taking anything down for 1/5th of the cost of an IBM / Oracle/Sun kit. Three DCs, SAN replication, 16 hypervisor nodes per site, 200TiB online for less than a single z-series unit or one Sun site over 3 years...

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2016, 11:17:03 pm
content: A closer look at a CPU module....

author: hamdi.tn
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2016, 11:57:05 pm
content: i just saw the second video, the cpu module and i notice those holders for dc-dc boards. am designing a board that should run 4 or 5 dc motors and i was thinking to make dc drivers (h-bridges with some driving circuit and protection) mounted in a modular way. exactly like those dc-dc. the thing is i only found connectors for this exact purpose made by Molex (can handel power and signals up to 40A)http://www.molex.com/pdm_docs/sd/459120007_sd.pdfand can't find any other one in farnell mouser websites. On your cpu module those connector just standard PCI connector (with pins shorted to handle more current) or they are similar to the connector in the link

author: Rasz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 26, 2016, 12:29:23 pm
content: old server hardware is the best source of cheap high quality powersupplies around! where else can you get 1200W (12V x 100A) for $20?~5 years ago (200W GPU) I was rocking $10 HP ESP115 (modded to silence ridiculous fans) and laughing my ass off at people buying $150-300 coolermaster/corsair/thermaltake/antec ATX units.

author: TerraHertz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 26, 2016, 10:39:31 pm
content: I can't help wondering why high-end gear like that never turns up on ebay as 'not working' for scrap value. Or does it, and I just always miss seeing it?If not, is it some kind of accounting/insurance/user-licence thing, that such equipment is not to be allowed on the market, ever?Speaking of high reliability systems, has anyone else noticed that ebay.com (and .au) was seriously messed up since yesterday afternoon? It only just came back this morning. The main page always loaded OK, but user messaging was completely and consistently dead. No response, servers unreachable, the behavior changes but it never actually worked. Now it does.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 26, 2016, 11:10:31 pm
content: Quote from: TerraHertz on February 26, 2016, 10:39:31 pmIt does, just probably not very often in Australia..e.g.http://www.ebay.com/itm/Sun-Enterprise-M4000-Server-4x2-1ghz-16gb-2x146gb-HDD-/291559586920?hash=item43e24e3c68:g:QT0AAOSwGvhUALFu

author: TSL
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 26, 2016, 11:51:23 pm
content: Quote from: TerraHertz on February 26, 2016, 10:39:31 pmIts an accounting/license thing.I manage a data centre, its my responsibility to retire old hardware. Some I find homes in other labs but most is ecycled by a contractor who provides a "certificate of destruction" for the equipment we send them.There was an M9000 in my back room for a while that looked like I might have been able to do a tear down on before ecycle but its gone to a support lab. There are other nice things in there scheduled for destruction, if I can get some time (ha!) I might be able to do a quick tear down before they end up in the skip.Mind you other labs do go down the "sell it" path and most of that seems to end up on Grays rather than eBay.

author: TerraHertz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2016, 01:46:22 pm
content: Quote from: TSL on February 26, 2016, 11:51:23 pmI was going to ask if you could be more specific. Then noticed you are in Australia. So, let me guess. It's specifically the accountants, and their 'it has been depreciated to zero value, therefore it cannot be sold. Because that would call our accounting methods into question.' What a load of crock and BS.If not that, can you elaborate? I like to know exactly how much and in what ways our county is f*cked.Not the 'import duty is refunded, if the equipment is certified destroyed' idiocy? I though that was no longer operative?Or just the 'management have a policy' thing. Where management are predominantly of a certain cult we cannot name, who strenuously avoid ever letting anything nice happen for non-cult members, if they can possibly prevent it.QuoteTragic.QuoteWhich I guess can be taken as evidence that destruction is purely an arbitrary management policy decision.

author: TSL
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2016, 09:27:25 pm
content: Its mostly accounting - I've seen this before at other places I've worked.Years ago I once worked for a white goods manufacturer who decided to move their main warehouse. There was pallets and pallets of brand new fridges, ovens, toasters, etc., that were either EOL or near to it. They hired onsite compactors and security guards to ensure it was all written off. Myself and other staff were mortified at the waste; they wouldn't even consider donating to charity - that could have earned them significant good will but the accountants said no.It wasn't just the white goods either, the service dept was attached to this facility and they dumped 1000's of components and test equipment! I sneakily scored my first Fluke DMM, a trusty 8060A before a carton of them headed to the crusher.I left soon after,its one thing to trash old computer gear, its a whole other thing to trash stuff that could make a significant impact on peoples lives for a little effort.Back then too, that all went to landfill - at least now the stuff I retire gets recycled.

author: MrSlack
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2016, 09:40:54 pm
content: They're not all like that. My first job was with a defence contractor. They signed everything off as disposed, all memories, storage devices destroyed. Then it got chucked in a skip out of the back and we helped ourselves to the kit on the way out of the factory. In a year I bagged myself a couple of HP power supplies, a Philips PM3217, some Tek 7000 plugins, a Marconi 2019, two Sun SPARCstation 20's and an unfortunately completely destroyed HP spectrum analyser. Made up for the grade E corporate salary

author: TerraHertz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2016, 10:48:08 pm
content: Quote from: MrSlack on February 28, 2016, 09:40:54 pmYou are in England. You're assuming it's the same everywhere, but it isn't. In situations like the above Australia is quite a special case - short bus kind of special.Here are some examples, from my own experience. All from many years ago, so the guilty will... ah heck, who cares about those bastards.1. A lady doctor acquaintance of mine was informed a Johnson & Johnson distribution warehouse in Sydney was closing. They had a well-equipped onsite medical center. My friend had asked if possibly some of the gear could be donated to a charity she was associated with, that sends medical aid to poor African countries. A J&J rep said OK, made a date to visit. My friend invited me too since she knew I was owner-building a workshop and the place was to be demolished so perhaps some building materials for salvage. On arrival our J&J guide showed us through the place. Warehouse scale quantities of common chemist-stock. Pallets piled high with things like bandaids, lotions, etc. Ha ha, pallets of KY jelly. The medical center had quite a lot of stuff too. Also they had labs, mostly cleared out but I found one really cool thing in a drawer - an electrostatic field measuring instrument. It had been left, and would be destroyed when the building was demolished.So did they donate anything to charity? Or let me have that electrometer or any building materials?Nope. Nothing. It became clear our guide's sole reason for being there was to tease us. "Look at all the stuff we are about to destroy." No reason given for why none of it could be given away. I could tell the rep was getting a kind of sick pleasure from dangling this stuff in front of us. Also that he was a .... can't mention that word. A certain tribe.2. Back in my 20s I worked for various groups running both arcade and gambling video games. At one point a whole lot of laser video disk players were imported, intended to be used to play game cut scenes. Not a project I had anything to do with, but I was friends with the people involved. One Christmas eve I got a phone call - "Guy, those players turned out to be unsuitable, and tomorrow they are going to a tip to be bulldozed in the presence of a tax inspector, so we can have the import duty refunded. Do you want the lasers out of them? We can bring them round now, have to have them back tomorrow morning."Of course I did. So I spent the entire night of Christmas eve completely gutting about 20 big laser disk players, and replacing the innards with bricks so they still had correct weight. But the point was - government regulation insanity confirmed. And tax inspectors will even work on Christmas day, to carry out their insane rules.3. As an electronics engineer, being given a company tour by one of the PCB manufacturers still in business in Sydney back then (just at the start of the ROHS no-lead solder changes, that killed off most Australian PCB makers.) As a board maker that also did assembly and test, they had a lot of test equipment. On the tour we came across a couple of pallets piled waist-high with high-end test gear. HP stuff mostly. I asked what was the story. "Oh, it's all being replaced. Old, out of cal cert or faulty, not worth repair. Being sent off to the tip soon."I asked if I could have any, or even make offers for some. It was as if I had suggested some kind of weird sex act. "Oh no, goodness me... I can't even... the accountants... I'll have to ask my boss..." I kept chasing it over subsequent days by phone. Nope. No one had authority to 'bend the rules'. It was all destroyed.4. Again in my 20s. At a time when I had virtually nothing in test gear, and no prospect of ever being able to afford anything decent. No ebay back then. I heard through friends that ADI out at St Marys was shutting down, and they had a literally huge warehouse full of surplus test gear they didn't know what to do with. I was given a phone number. Called, arranged a time to be given a tour of said warehouse out at St Marys.OK, do you have tissues handy?They did indeed have a warehouse full of test gear. Rows of benches and shelves off into the distance, heaped with everything you can imagine a defense industry contract company using. Both test instruments and esoteric stuff. For example they had an entire large scale highly detailed model of some Australian navy warship, constructed entirely of copper. For radar profile testing or something. As for the test gear... they weren't outright negative about the idea of selling some. But "will have to ask my boss." I already knew what that meant. Anyway I made a list, of about 20 things I'd like. ('Like' isn't an adequate word. There were spectrum analyzers and high end scopes, etc.)It turned into a telephone runaround. No one had authority. The matter kept being bumped up the chain of authority. Eventually it got bumped to head office in Melbourne. Of course I never got any. I heard some may have been transfered to Melbourne, but ultimately the warehouse was demolished and the site is now a housing estate. I'm pretty sure most of that stuff was destroyed.5. Two separate cases of finding small, nondescript industrial sites in Sydney where 'contractually certified destruction of high-tech stuff' was being carried out. In both cases spoke with the operators, was told "no we can't sell anything, it all has to be destroyed. It makes us sad too." One place was trashing mainframe computers, the other handled mostly stuff from the military. A lot of which was ordinary commercial high-end test gear. But no, "secret military gear, must be destroyed."So, for most of my life I've had the strong impression that many people involved in setting the rules/laws/accounting underlying such evil, insane and harmful to the national interest bullshit, should be lined up against a wall and shot. Part of why I'm so negative about existing political systems.

author: MrSlack
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2016, 11:14:44 pm
content: That completely sucks. Petty bureaucrats everywhere. Watch the film Brazil if you haven't already; it takes a pretty big stab at that.I get my fair share of them in financial compliance (the day job). Horrible horrible people.

author: TSL
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2016, 11:19:37 pm
content: Quote from: TerraHertz on February 28, 2016, 10:48:08 pmI remember the ADI shutdown ! as a member of the local amateur radio club we we mortified at the destruction of so many antennas, masts, and dishs + associated Heliax cable. We could only imagine the test gear that went to the crusher.As for laws.... I agree, they need changing and to some extent a precedent has already been made as OzHarvesthttp://www.ozharvest.orggot the laws changed.Maybe provision needs to be made inCivil Liabilities Amendment Actfor tech/white goods companies to be able to contribute too.In this world of excess, its morally wrong to dump/destroy stuff when sections of our own community are left wanting.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 29, 2016, 12:16:53 am
content: OK here's one for you - more incompetence than anything else I'm sure.In 2011, I designed the electronics for this :http://www.jasonbruges.com/projects/uk-projects/digital-fountainThis uses a lot of custom-made single-pixel LCD panels (I think they were about £15 each).The original installation was the main fountain ( which is still there, and working bar the odd dead pixel), plus benches that radiated out in several directions down the walkways , with LCD panels along the rear edge - the idea was the "water" flowed down the fountain and along the benches. I don't recall the quantity but it would have been a good few hundred LCD panels.As planned, the benches were taken out for the 2012 Olympics (this was a major route into the park). but afterwards, the shopping centre people decided they didn't want them back, and you guessed it, they were all dumped. Of course we only found out afterwards, by which time it was too late.

author: TerraHertz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 29, 2016, 04:41:40 pm
content: Quote from: TSL on February 28, 2016, 11:19:37 pmDishes... that reminds me of another story. Everyone in Sydney will remember the Channel 7 studios in Epping, and the tower on top of the building. Those who saw it close up will remember it had a fairly large fully gimbaled parabolic dish on top of the tower. It was used to establish microwave com links with mobile vans and other locations.In 2010, Channel seven sold the site to developers, who then cleared the site and built high rise units. There was an interval when the old buildings were abandoned and unsecured. It was an interesting place to explore. Also the tower was a fun night time climb. I wondered what was to become of that dish. (Guess: to be destroyed.) I have rock climbing experience, gear and ropes, and a friend who is a commercial industrial climbing/rigger. We figured it would be easy to get it down intact, if we could get permission.Sometimes during the day then there would be developer types on site. Passing by once I stopped at the main gate, asked the gatekeeper if I could speak to the boss. A very oily looking character in a suit showed up. Pointing at the dish on the tower, I asked him if there was any chance of arranging salvage. He seemed annoyed I was wasting his time, and claimed it had already been sold, for quote "One hundred thousand dollars." Which of course immediately told me he was lying. But there was no point calling him a lying c*nt to his face, so I just left. I recognize that combination of looks and casual outrageous lying, and it's no use engaging with such people.So, was it saved? It was a really nice dish, on a very solid 2-axis gimbal. Apparently hadn't been used for years and maybe the motors would have needed repair, but still.Anyway... here's a video of the tower being demolished.Marking the end of an era for ATN 7 EppingThe dish is still on top. Since it and the mount was a solidly built alloy structure, it must have been pulled out of the wreckage and sent to recyclers, since later when I saw the pile, only the smashed-up fiberglass weather shield off the dish was still there.Oh, and I think I previously mentioned here the three huge and fully working one megawatt diesel electric backup generator sets at Channel 7 that were destroyed in the demolition. Also perhaps the four quite recent model 100KW (each) 3-phase uninterruptible power supply units, that I have photos of after they were bulldozed on site.Their huge battery banks were ruined due to CH 7 shutting off the street power, leaving all the emergency lighting, etc loading the UPSs. Which maintained power for a long time, but eventually failed as the batteries went completely flat. I don't know how many thousands of dollars of batteries that wrecked. The battery banks were very impressive, and it was heartbreaking to see that many big batteries all bulged out due to sulfation from being deliberately run down to flat.

author: daqq
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 29, 2016, 06:06:01 pm
content: I, and lots of people in the post-soviet or eastern block can relate to the sadness you get when you see great gear scrapped for scrap metal, or just rusting there, destroyed industrial and research facilities, abandoned tech....See:http://englishrussia.com/2016/02/26/abandoned-storm-factory-of-the-crimea/http://englishrussia.com/2016/02/27/abandoned-station-silently-waiting-for-signals/11/and hundreds of others.Basically, once the previous regime fell a lot of the companies just couldn't handle the free open market. More sadder however were those that COULD handle the free market, but were just privatized and stolen and sucked dry. One of the saddest stories was how a formerly prosperous salt producer with 400+ years of tradition became another victim of creative accounting. You can see research places surviving and there are various labs that were just closed down. A friend once had the opportunity to visit such a place and take some stuff, provided it wasn't too valuable as scrap - he told me of beautiful optical instruments there, ready to be scrapped.

author: nukie
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2016, 02:32:05 am
content: These people dont understand how 'scrap equipment' can be an impact to the next generation.

author: TerraHertz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 05, 2016, 04:50:42 am
content: Quote from: nukie on March 06, 2016, 02:32:05 amActually, it's my impression that at upper management/government levels they *do* understand, and it's specifically that reason why the various rules are arranged the way they are. Reasoning: "We can't have just random individuals acquiring high level technological skills and capabilities, now can we? That could be socially/technologically disruptive, and might lead to something which could threaten the existing power and profits monopolies."

author: Kilrah
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 07, 2016, 04:17:04 pm
content: +1, just like education makes sure the majority of people knows just enough to be "used" efficiently but not enough for them to start questioning the system or try to do their own thing that could risk disturbing it. Don't teach them too much, don't give them access to too much.Actually the number of capable people that are either not confident enough about their capabilities to try something else or are just "happy as is" is impressive. Can't be random.

author: krivx
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2016, 08:21:52 am
content: Quote from: TerraHertz on April 05, 2016, 04:50:42 amDo you have experience of this kind of thinking? I always thought this was done because there's no incentive for the company/government. It creates a small amount of work that only benefits someone else from outside the organization.