SMALL SMT VP-2800HP-CL64-4R has just arrived - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: IconicPCB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2019, 03:00:23 am
content: Ladies and gentlemen I am happy to announce that the big iron stork has delivered a new baby.There will be no public display of baby porn, wise men bringing gold myrrh and frankincense will be allowed private viewing.

author: TJ232
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2019, 04:51:41 am
content: Quote from: IconicPCB on June 19, 2019, 03:00:23 amFunny enough. Or not."revenue_controls" thread has disappeared in a debate about the best pure american capitalism approach, yours is starting with abut some sort of strange pornography teasing.I must admit that after all I have seen on this forum all these years SmallSMT marketing campaign is at least one of the "out-of-the-box" one I ever seen for a technical device.I am still asking myself when we will be able to see a proper review, top to bottom, for such a PNP machine? Nothing fancy, no porn, just basic things like:- unpacking and first installation steps- general software presentation- feeders setup- machine setup and first run calibration- PNP files import procedure from Altium/Eagle/KiCAD/name it.- step by step session thru a simple full PCB placement job, from A to Z.- small general errors and troubleshooting session from how to change the fuseto what's "ERR98354.23"- any other goodies that can make somebody to jump on his seat to grab the credit card and throw in your account with about 20k $Long story short: I am really loking forward to see it at work!Happy breadboarding,TJ.

author: IconicPCB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2019, 05:40:26 am
content: TJYou have hit the nail on the head...I was particularly disapointed by the LOCKING and then SHIFTING of revenue control's topic somewhere where it will sink into oblivion.I had already purchased the machine before he had announced arrival of his machine and a promise of a subsequent review.Having someone go along the thorny path ahead of me seemed very opportune; however that was not to be thanks to a small group of petty minded individuals who had decided they would protect us from ourselves.TJ I plan to establish the machine over the coming couple of weeks and in due course put it through it's paces.I guess I may be in a better position than revenue control to comment on the machine since we operate a small Mechatronika MV10.I shall be happy to share the experience with You and anybody else who is genuinely interested; I will not entertain exchanges with those who are happy to tread on my pearls.As for pornography... don't worry, I was referring to photos of the machine and just to make this clear... this is not a marketing exercise directed or designed by Small SMT. This topic is purely of my own volition.PS.. on he issue of viewing... where in the world are You?If in Oz You are welcome to visit.

author: SWR
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2019, 11:24:20 am
content: Congratulations on your new machine.I got mine a month ago and all seems to be working fine when I test it manually.I'm still working on the design of my first prototype and building a P&P friendly component library for the Design Spark PCB CAD program I'm using for PCB design, so testing it for real is still a few months into the future.

author: IconicPCB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2019, 01:04:18 pm
content: Thank You SWR,I have a number of products that go out a few times a year plus jobs as and when they arrive.Your approach makes sense, the library and uniformity of component choices at design stage are important to streamlining the process.Good luck with Your endeavors.

author: mrpackethead
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2019, 06:36:48 pm
content: Quote from: IconicPCB on June 19, 2019, 05:40:26 amInteresting choice of words about the moderators, and their decision.I'm really interested to see how yourbonafideindependentend-userexperience goes. Are you intending on becoming a SmallSMT distributor as well. Sadly we've seen this all before.

author: Smallsmt
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2019, 08:52:47 pm
content: QuoteI am really pissed of all this shit!Both people Steve and Zivko bought a machine from us and where customers.http://smallsmt.xobor.de/t87f2-demo.htmlcheck this forum post from last year.It's really not acceptable to read these stupid nonsense all the time.A review if independent or not is a review!We don't pay customers to do reviews for us.I don't need to use unfair methods to sell our machines.Nobody will post a review about a product if we keep this stone age discussion style.But some people of the community spread fake informations and others believe this shit.We have sold 137 machines in the market to valued customers.Most of them are satisfied with our machines.And finally the forum is living from people reading and posting informations.And Andrew what do you think about we write the same nonsense in your postings.I hope we find a way back to a normal communication style.Thank you!

author: mrpackethead
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2019, 09:15:29 pm
content: SmallSMT, the power is in your hands. ( and IconicPCB's ).Just tell us if you are planning to set up IconicPCB as a distributor/reseller. You can squash this issue in a single moment of time, with a single word.. ( yes or no ).

author: Smallsmt
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2019, 09:28:23 pm
content: He is a customer no reseller.

author: mrpackethead
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2019, 09:31:27 pm
content: Thanks. it was not that hard to just be upfront. Really looking forward to Iconic's story now.

author: IconicPCB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2019, 10:04:43 pm
content: Only the wise men ... only the wise men...Or to put it another way... this is akin to the parable of pearls and swine... the pearls will be well guarded.

author: TJ232
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2019, 06:38:35 am
content: "mrpackethead" - Please, Please, please , NOT again! Can you please not start again ? Please move your fight with Michael somewhere else.I am 100% sure that they are a lot of other people like me, really interested in SmallSMT PNP's capabilities and who would be very happy to see a proper top-to-bottom review of the machine, including some Youtube Videos of the whole setup + run process."IconicPCB" - I am located on the other side of the World in Europe, otherwise I would be more that happy to visit you with a 6-pack or two."Smallsmt" - A friendly advice: don't waste your time, don't feed the trolls.

author: IconicPCB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2019, 07:11:47 am
content: The machine is finally on the work bench.Let me just say bench top can not be applied to this machine. According to Michael it takes four people to manhandle the machine... I reckon two people and a shop floor crane.No way for four people who do not lift weights to pick up this machine and position it on the bench.To this end I would like to observe the frame could do with locations for lifting eyelets.We have not commenced machine assembly and commissioning, a job for the morrow.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2019, 07:37:40 am
content: Congrats with the new purchase, looking forward to the practical operations side esp compared to the MV10.

author: mrpackethead
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2019, 09:34:46 am
content: Quote from: IconicPCB on June 20, 2019, 07:11:47 amHeavy = good. The faster they get the heavier they become. My TVM920's are too light for what they are doing. My Yamahas are 2T forklift material! Its a good start.

author: Smallsmt
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2019, 11:41:22 am
content: Quote from: mrpackethead on June 20, 2019, 09:34:46 amMostly it depends on the mass they need to accelerate. And of course the acceleration and speed.Old machines mostly use heavy head constructions and heavy portals that have to be moved.That's the reason they need heavy weight.High speed machines use linear motors and accelerate really fast I saw on SMTconnect exhibition.They use a lot of tricks to prevent vibrations.

author: TJ232
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2019, 01:06:35 pm
content: Quote from: Kjelt on June 20, 2019, 07:37:40 amMV10was quite something until about 5 years ago, one of a kind in a small niche market.A slow machine (for real about 800-1000 cph) but with good precision. Perfect for lab testing and short runs.I have seen it doing 0402 and 0.5mm pitch IC's all day long in a proper temperature controlled lab environment.I remember also that operators were complaining about data import from CAD.If I remember correctly price was about 25K EUR, with feeder banks & stuff included.Unfortunately didn't evolve much.It will be great to see a full comparison between VP-2800HP vs MV10 done by somebody that has both machinesRegarding how should look some PNP machine video tutorials, I remember the MV10 ones:I think they can be used with great success as a guidance for the new VP-2800HP review.

author: mrpackethead
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2019, 06:04:07 pm
content: Quote from: Smallsmt on June 20, 2019, 11:41:22 amNew Machines are also heavy. YAmaha S10 1200kg, Kuki KE-3010 1900kg for example.

author: SMTech
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2019, 07:49:04 pm
content: Quote from: mrpackethead on June 20, 2019, 06:04:07 pmYup all of them, don't think you'll find a "light" one, our Essemtec has a layer of concrete under the main platform onto which everything else is bolted (PCB Table, feeders etc) , its not exactly quick compared to many machines either. You can be s clever as you like with drives & control but you just can't get around elementary psychics, even a machine that isn't placing 40kcph+ is still accelerating and decelerating the head at quite a rate in lots of short movements, what we have lost is those machines that keep the head still and move the board only.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2019, 09:25:03 pm
content: I am sure that SMT machines can also be bolted to a solid concrete platform.If that is the only difference and 80k€ price gain , for less than 1k€ you can build yourself a 1000kg platform

author: mrpackethead
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2019, 11:58:03 pm
content: Quote from: Kjelt on June 20, 2019, 09:25:03 pmIts not the solid platform, its the ridigity of it all the way through. The bigger the moving mass, and the faster the heads moving the stronger it needs to be to survive, and stay accurate. My Yamahas have a cast steel chassiss. I'd estiamte teh head weighs about 6kg, ( i've had it off once ).. It will accelerate up to about 5.5m/s, but it does ramp up and down, so it does'tn come to a slamming stop! Even on EEVBlog we have to stay within the rules of physics.

author: pisoiu
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2019, 05:03:46 am
content: Out of curiosity, can you tell me what are they using to drive to such accelerations? I assume they have servo AC motors, but what power? Also, I assume they are using ball screws, what diameter is the screw and what lead? I saw some similar approaches on chinese pnp (smt880 and similar), they look pretty fast too, but from movies is hard to tell exact numbers about accelerations. Thank you.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2019, 07:22:27 am
content: Quote from: mrpackethead on June 20, 2019, 11:58:03 pmYou can bold the chassis down to a solid platform same trick is used in cnc machines.Yes with linear motors doing 5,5m/s you won't get away.But surprise this machine uses ballscrews and then 10m/min is already pretty fast.So you are talking about a different kind of platform with 100k components per hour while here we have what is it 3k per hour ?

author: pisoiu
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2019, 07:35:04 am
content: Quote from: Kjelt on June 21, 2019, 07:22:27 amSpeed itself is not a problem for a ball screw. AFAIK you just have to keep the rotation speed under a certain critical value ( a function of length and diameter of screw) to prevent nasty vibrations, but linear speed can be quite high as long as you use ball screws with high lead values. AC servos can run up to 3000 rpm, that's 50 rotations per second and a 2550 screw (25mm diameter, 50mm lead) can do 50mm linear travel per rotation...

author: IconicPCB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2019, 07:38:31 am
content: 5,5m/s is nothing special.. sure it is quickish but nothing special.I am runing a home made laser plotter at half a g ( 4m/s2) on a steel framed machine ( plate thickness approximately 40mm gantry made from same material and fixing braces similarly dimensioned.Motors are unfortunately iron cored not air cored linear motors running at the limits of motor/servo ratings on 180Volts ( for speed) and carrying a single laser diode.A fair bit of cogging is exhibited by the iron cored linear motor, a real problem to get it to follow trajectory with minimal following error.Machine frame is close to 300kilos and only the Y axis ( high speed forcer ) moves at full speed and yet the machine rocks on rubber cushions.Linear glass scales all around.

author: TIOUK
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2019, 09:51:35 am
content: mrpackethead, get back under your bridge.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2019, 03:05:54 pm
content: Quote from: IconicPCB on June 21, 2019, 07:38:31 amYes that is nothing specialfirst your head weighs less than 100 grams then with 4m/s2you are not even at 4m/s after one second and you are already at 2 meters X displacement.To reach 5,5m/s and machines with small axis say 1 meter you need ten Gs acceleration and decelleration or something like that. Without dropping the component.No problem for linear motors but not recommended for ballscrews AFAIK they will wear out extremely fast.

author: IconicPCB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2019, 04:11:48 pm
content: as mentioned above...screws are limited by the diameter/lenght of stroke/vibration aspects at high RPM and this aspect of screw performance is in fact seen in the design of the 2800HP in the choice of screw diameters.The numbers are not to hand ... its' 2am.. i am wide awake... cant fall asleep.. but i shall measure screw diameters of the morning.EDIT: The screws are 15mm and 20mm diameter respectively. Significantly larger than the screws on y milling machine where I have used NSK 14mm screws of similar length. Milling machine has been in use since 2007with no problems ( in that area ) to date,

author: mrpackethead
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2019, 09:07:49 am
content: Hows that machine going?

author: IconicPCB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2019, 08:17:07 am
content: Machine is now positioned on the frame, we have had to place a 20mm riser beneath the machine, the welding shop did not follow Mat's instructions and instead of welding support members on top of the table frame they made the em flush with the frame whihc created issues with some feeders, feeder interfering with the frame.Had to redo the support for the machine now all feeders loaded machine firing up nicely.Mat will start to re calibrate the feeder parameters since the initial config file reflected a different complement of feeders ( 8mm versus 12,16 and 24mm ).Software seems more intuitive than previous experience.Tomorrow we hope to start a first job on the machine.A simple affair, one PCB only, a prototype driver for a bunch of blowers.Mat is the fellow who operates the gear so as the experience crystallizes and his grunts become clearer more comments will follow.His opinion:"... software seems to follow the windows paradigm nicely... bugger how do I remove the nozzle...do i need a bigger hammer?..."

author: MR
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 11, 2019, 11:41:05 pm
content: Quote from: IconicPCB on June 19, 2019, 05:40:26 amHow's your MV10?Which motors does that device use? Can you have a closer look at it if possible?Our MX80 uses Delta motors from Taiwan and Mechatronika completely fucked it up. They have even misconfigured the servo motors (the machine left their warehouse and arrived misconfigured in our office).And they won't fix the problem, they cut the communication with us.Their machine uses a small microcontroller which is attached to Delta Servo Controllers, those controllers have a USB interface for the configuration and Delta provides a very nice application for modifying the settings so since we had no other choice anyway we fixed it ourself (having no previous knowledge with PID controllers), finally it runs smoothly.The Y Motor of our machine is a 400W AC motor, the X Motor is a 200W AC motor (Delta ASDA-A2)Also the top camera in our MX80 is just a 10$ chinese CCTV module.. we know that since we have replaced it. They jumpwired cables manually on an old version and cut off chip legs to fit their purpose. Recent 10$ models have an onscreen menu for adjusting everything via a wired remote control.We have now spent a few months on reverse engineering the entire machine and rewrote the entire pick and place application (which now of course is a very big advantage for us).Their original software is more than awful... 50 clicks to place 5 selected components manually (especially since they don't even support multiselect).The optical recognition does not work properly with some components (well ... they are using an outdated library from Euresys, we're using OpenCV and get better results with our algorithms), that problem causes a lot components to be dropped.->https://snag.gy/6nMxXV.jpgTheir nozzle can only turn around 190 degrees (firmware limitation!), so they need to do some easy calculation - but that limitation can also lead to rejected components.The software setup of >60 feeders takes no longer than a few minutes with our software, compared with Mechatronika's software where it takes over a half hour.Mechatronika has no ability or interest in fixing their software... our next step will be to sue them for the failed upgrade which they have delivered to us.

author: MR
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 12, 2019, 01:27:29 am
content: Few Mechatronika quality pick and place pictures, at some point the servo was shifted due to the wrong configuration (the problem with the original software is also the traceability .. there's just none).Proper software should not allow an operator to make things that wrong, the software must match the machine build - if it doesn't you'll end up like we did with Mechatronika's MX80, and we have spent 4 months in total to write our own software and organise all the data (including cheap AOI).Be sure that the machine is able to drop components by itself, when components are picked up there's a vacuum on the nozzle; even when turning that vacuum off there could be the case that components might still stick on the needle. Some small air pressure needs to be applied (the air pressure support is the key) to get the component off the nozzle - unless you want to remove the component manually (which is really not nice). Mechatronika has no such feature - the machine will completely stop and ask for maintenance (aka babysitting) if that happens. Especially annoying when training componentThe manufacturer, Mechatronika did not comment on the wrong servo settings, they just cut the communication as mentioned.mechatronika_1.pnglet me give a try to place 0402eh not yet?mechatronika_2.pnganother try *bang*still not yet?mechatronika_3.pngfinally gotcha!mechatronika_5.pnga shift occurred (due to wrong PID controller settings)feederslot pictures, check the tolerance and if there's not a very good explanation why there's so much tolerance don't go for it. 0.45mm tolerance as with Mechatronika is unreasonable, that's what came back after sending them the feeders for servicing, they claim to support 0201. The slot cut-out is just a small plate which can be replaced easily.Seriously when buying a pick and place machine watch out for the software, it's the key. Building such a machine is not so difficult nowadays because you can get quality parts easily.Spend the necessary money to watch the machine yourself, best would be to take your own component reels and demo project and set up a machine by yourself (it's okay with guidance). If things start to fail just give up.Check all the cameras for pixel errors because they might have an effect if the software is not done well enough for compensating them. Mechatronika basically only delivered 2 out of 4 cameras without pixel errors. We have bought a bunch of chinese cameras where 10% have had pixel errors.Do not trust on marketing speech .. high quality cameras (that's what Mechatronika said, but for real they did not do any QA about dead pixels and just shipped it out).Be aware you'll depend on the Manufacturer (unless you have the time for reverse engineering), be sure their attitude and pricing is correct. Eg. how much do replacement parts cost (basically all that is wrong with Mechatronika, their machines are overprices for what they deliver, if their software would have been close to what we have done ourselves their price would have been absolutely okay. Eg one replacement nozzle from Mechatronika costs around 100 EUR .. real manufacturing cost below 10 EUR they are aware that their customers depend on them)We have experienced the nightmare with Mechatronika.... luckily with escape path to take over their product with our own software.

author: sirvalence
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: August 28, 2019, 12:36:33 am
content: Any intelligible grunts from Mat yet?I'm totally new to p&p, the feature set/price point on these machines are a good match for me and I haven't found too many other >60x feeder machines in the lower price ranges.Your reports are very much appreciated!