Agilent/Keysight MSOX4024A or MSOX3034A? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: jolshefsky
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 16, 2014, 01:22:04 pm
content: So I'm shopping around for my first real scope (right now I use a cute little DPScope USB dongle kind of thing with a 1MHz bandwidth, but I've outlived its usefulness). I lean toward the Keysight (née Agilent) scopes because of the high update rate over other brands. I like Tek's MDO scopes because of the spectrum analyzer and better provided probes, but I don't work in RF so I think the Keysight FFT will serve my needs fine. I think I'm going to get the MSOX4024A (4-analog/16-digital/200MHz upgradeable to 1.5GHz), but I'm comparing against the MSOX3024A (4-analog/16-digital/200MHz) for much cheaper. As far as I can see, there are three big differences: the 3000 has a 1-channel waveform generator while the 4000 has 2 channels as well as a touch screen and upgradeable bandwidth. Now that I'm thinking about it more, the 3000 seems to make more sense ...For what it's worth, I primarily work with low-frequency analog (~10KHz in one product line, and some audio) and with 8-bit microcontrollers (up to 40MHz) so I think 200MHz bandwidth is more than adequate, and the possibility of digital analysis of protocol data (I2C, etc.) is quite exciting.Finally, are therehiddengotchas about buying used? I know there are risks about disreputable sellers, but how likely is hidden damage (electrically or mechanically damaged inputs) or extreme mis-calibration? And are there issues with software licenses, since these new scopes are more like standalone computers with a fancy analog frontend? Am I missing anything?

author: mij59
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 16, 2014, 02:38:14 pm
content: Hi,The MSOX4000 and MSOX3000 are similar in upgrade ability, some are license upgrades others are hardware upgrades.I think the MSOX4000 is too expensive, a lot of the functions are extra's e.g. function generator, data decoding.The MSOX3000 is cheaper and at the moment there's a application bundle upgrade (DSOX3APPBNDL), it's real bargain.If you want a used one go for the Keysight Premium Used e.g.http://stores.ebay.com/Keysight/PREMIUM-Used-/_i.html?_fsub=874614011&_sid=869664151&_trksid=p4634.m322Probably other companies can also offer Premium Used.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 16, 2014, 03:04:05 pm
content: 200 MHz for 40 MHz digital logic seems about right to me (fifth harmonic) but with careful design you can get by with less bandwidth. Slower oscilloscopes will not show fast edges accurately but they can still measure delay and timing just fine.The above goes double when probing difficulties are considered. Easy use of high impedance passive probes stops somewhere between 100 and 200 MHz.When I want to spot check signal integrity, I break out a really fast oscilloscope and use a low Z passive probe or 50 ohm connection. Instead of using an active probe, I just design in a buffered test point if needed but if I really did need an active probe, I would just design and build one or pick up a used one. For general purpose design work, I rarely go above 200 MHz and usually stay at 100 MHz simply because my only 50 MHz oscilloscope, a 547, is a monster.I have not been impressed with any of the AWGs included with oscilloscopes because they do not support any sort of low frequency network analysis. Of course newer DSOs do not display the phase information from their FFTs either so maybe that does not matter. The built in AWG is just something else to break.Taking everything into consideration, I think the best of all worlds is a 200 MHz or slower 4 channel mixed signal DSO for general purpose use and a separate high bandwidth 2 channel DSO for signal integrity measurements. The high bandwidth oscilloscope could be sampling instead of real time but none of the major players make a low cost sampling oscilloscope. On the 4 channel lower frequency DSO, I might look for a higher end model to get a better display or higher waveform acquisition rate.

author: HighVoltage
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 16, 2014, 03:09:29 pm
content: Hello,I bought my 3000X from the Agilent used Site as a premium and I am very happy with it.The software bundle offers an amazing saving over the normal price:Normal price for all the options in Europe is 9.900€ | Now is is 641€ + VATI also looked at the 4000X series, before I bought the 3000X.Essentially it is the same as the 3000X with a bigger screen and touch capability and a few more features.The 4000X did not offer me anything extra and is MUCH more expensive.The optional bundle is also offered for a good saving over the normal price for the 4000XNormal price for all option in Europe is 14.779€ | Now is is 1202€ + VATIf you really want to know the differences between the 2000X, 3000X and 4000Xdownload the Agilent educational training pamphlet for each one of themThey are very well made and offer a training according to the scopes capabilityHere is a good start:http://cp.literature.agilent.com/litweb/pdf/5990-6690EN.pdf

author: georges80
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 16, 2014, 03:10:40 pm
content: Unless your pockets are lined in gold, I'd look at the msox2024a and that gets you 200MHz, logic analyser and basic protocol stuff (you can buy the license pack for $400 or thereabouts to enable the rest of the features and all the protocol decoders etc).I bought my msox2024a via the Agilent certiprime on their Ebay store and it worked out with sales tax etc around $2500 delivered to my door. You can offer less than their asking price (try 15%). Certiprime gets you an "as new" product and the full 5 yr warranty from Agilent, hard to go wrong...The 2000 series updates slower than the 3000, but for what you described your needs are, there's minimal need for that extra capability and you are paying a lot more for it... The money I saved going the certiprime/2000 path easily paid for a dedicated DSA (for my needs the Rigol dsa815-tg took care of things nicely).cheers,george.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 16, 2014, 04:22:38 pm
content: Quote from: HighVoltage on August 16, 2014, 03:09:29 pmThis brings up what I consider an important point as far as the display and user interface.For me glossy screens are out because of glare issues which might exclude all touch screens and I am not sanguine that touch screens are appropriate if they need to be continuously cleaned because of fingerprints. User interfaces which rely on embedded desktop operating systems tend to be riddled with bugs and performance problems; this by itself made me exclude Tektronix oscilloscopes of the DPO5000 series an above after evaluating one.

author: AndyC_772
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 16, 2014, 04:41:51 pm
content: I briefly considered a 4000X scope, but quickly discounted it as being far too expensive for what you get over and above the equivalent 3000X model. The 3000X screen is bright and clear, and even though I have the VGA module and can plug it into a 24" monitor that sits next to it on my desk, I rarely if ever feel the need.Other than the larger screen, the 4000X adds a second function generator channel, the touchscreen UI, some additional triggering modes and USB decoding features, and that's about it as far as I'm aware. I don't doubt for a moment that it's a lovely scope, and I'd be delighted to have one in my own lab, but since it was my own money I was spending, I went for the 3000X instead and am very happy with it.Not once have I said to myself, 'this job would have been so much easier if only I had a 4000X instead'.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 17, 2014, 01:46:29 am
content: Quote from: georges80 on August 16, 2014, 03:10:40 pmCompared to the 3000 series the 2000 series lose the active probe interface which can be a very important feature for some users, going up to the 4000 series adds the zone triggering and USB decoding which are quite specific needs but the cost premium when comparing the same bandwidth models at 500MHz and 1GHz is not a lot extra for the benefits of the 4000 series.Quote from: jolshefsky on August 16, 2014, 01:22:04 pmThe 3024 is an under priced model compared to competitors and the others in the range, still a few minor bugs in the firmware but its still the most usable scope I've worked with and after some suggestions for improvements that appeared in the advanced maths package its been able to do everything I've tried to do.Quote from: David Hess on August 16, 2014, 04:22:38 pmI quite like the old Tek 5000 bench top series with the touch screen, you wouldn't use the touch exclusively but switching between touch, mouse, and the physical buttons as the task suited works seamlessly. Compared to competing Agilent and Lecroy models running full UIs I find the Tek much more pleasant to use.Quote from: jolshefsky on August 16, 2014, 01:22:04 pmThe licenses have been reliably supported by the big vendors, if you have the paperwork showing the serial numbers. If buying used you would want to have a quick demo of the scope before committing to purchase which will reduce the available units to those going to auction close to you so it may be very hard to find anything in your particular performance/price bracket. As mentioned above the Agilent outlet on ebay is very reliable, and has good stock turnover.

author: georges80
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 17, 2014, 02:42:24 am
content: Given the *OP's* requirements (40MHz digital and I2C etc decoding) a lowly 2000 series is certainly more than good enough.I know that many folk on this site love the super duper top of the line equipment/models, but one needs to be honest and evaluate what is actually needed in the near/far future (I assume 5 - 7 years as the far future). If one is tinkering with uController's and audio there's hardly a need for USB 2.0 or 3.0 decoding etc etc, especially if one is NOT developing the IP blocks. Also no need for a 500MHz+ scope AND the probes AND probing know how for those frequencies.I finished a design several months ago that runs a 1GHz SOC, has dual PCIe channels to 2 custom asic's that run 4 HDMI channels. The board has 6 switcher IC supplies (various voltage rails), runs 1gig ethernet and has 8 USB2.0 channels, several gig of ddr3 and ddr2 memory etc etc. It's an 8 layer design with a bunch of impedance controlled single and differential traces.The only time I put a scope on it was on initial power-up to verify all the clock oscillators were running (highest at 66MHz). A 200MHz 'dumb' scope was all that was needed to verify the basic functionality and signal integrity of the source clocks and power supplies.There's definitely a need for real high speed test equipment AND the probe technology and probing techniques for *some* applications, but unless the OP has needs beyond what he stated in his initial (and only post), he has no need for active probes or other 'neat' features and $$$ needed to enter that playground.I looked hard at the 3000 series versus 2000 series and for all the work I do that is typically well under 50MHz I had to be honest with myself and choose what I needed rather than what I wantedI use my equipment for my home office/business and it has to provide a good return for its expense.If the OP returns to this thread, maybe he can better explain what he requires of the scope and we can help him make a financially sound choice - unless of course his pockets are lined with goldcheers,george.

author: AndyC_772
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 17, 2014, 10:04:24 am
content: The limited number of digital channels (8 vs 16) and the fact that the 2000X series can't do serial decoding on them would be the real deal-breakers for me. If serial decoding is a requirement - and I wouldn't ever want to have to do without it now I've got a scope that can do it - then I'd regard the 3000X series as a minimum requirement.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 17, 2014, 02:23:14 pm
content: Or look at a different brand. I recently ordered a new Siglent SDS2204 to fulfill similar requirements. Buying used is an option but the price of the Siglent is hard to beat even by used equipment considering Siglent is an OEM for many brands like Metrix and Lecroy.

author: con-f-use
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 17, 2014, 06:25:18 pm
content: Have you looked into the (fairly new) Rigols with logic analyser and signal generator? They are much better bang for the buck.Quote from: georges80 on August 16, 2014, 03:10:40 pmBut if you ask me, the logic analyser in the 2000 series is crippled beyond being useful. You can't decode protocols with it. That only works on the analogue channels. (Sorry didn't read AndyC, definitely a dealbreaker!)

author: plesa
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 17, 2014, 06:52:25 pm
content: I will go for 3034, but depends on your budget. For me it is the best scope in its class. You can find lot of them in Agilent ebay store with fair price.For low budget I will pickup the 70MHz 2k series.

author: HighVoltage
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 17, 2014, 07:27:32 pm
content: If you really want the big screen of the 4000X series but you do not need all the trigger features of the 4000X series, look at the MSO7000B series.They are also kind of amazing Agilent scopes with lots of features and the prices have come down a lot.So you are getting a lot for the money.

author: jolshefsky
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 17, 2014, 10:32:08 pm
content: Quote from: georges80 on August 17, 2014, 02:42:24 amWhile not lined with gold, I do have the budget to purchase pretty much any scope.My secondary requirements are that it give me basically no trouble for many years—giving me confidence in readings and the like without the need for constant fiddling or retesting (although periodic calibrations are certainly wise). Because I like to buy rarely and get many years of use, I'd like to find something that has the capacity to continue to serve needs in potential future projects beyond 7 years or so. I realize that's a stretch and I could be working on anything, but I anticipate only faster microcontrollers (60-100MHz) and the 16 digital channels are a definite selling point over the 2000-series. Also, I anticipate getting more into protocol communications like I2C or CAN, so decoding is also valuable.Although I have low analog bandwidth requirements (and don't foresee that increasing much), mixed-signal designs could easily cause glitches approaching 100 MHz, leading me to the 200MHz bandwidth. I very much like the idea of a "general purpose" scope like the MSOX3024A (the 200MHz flavor, not the MSOX3034A I was originally looking at) for most uses, and then getting a ultra-high-bandwidth scope with only 2 analog channels if I ever run out of bandwidth—for that matter, perhaps even renting such a beast for a specific problem.As such, I'm fairly sold on the MSOX3024A with the "Ultimate Scope" pack from Keysight that adds all their software licenses.And as for eBay, Ialready Googledfor the "Agilent store" and found the (newly named)Keysight store, where they had a MSOX4034A for a good price but still US$2,700 more MSOX3024A new. I'm not going to buy today, so I'll definitely keep an eye on that store. (And, unfortunately, it's 5 weeks from their factory in Malaysia whereas I could purchase from an American supplier and get it much sooner. Plus, that leads me to seek a manufacturer who builds where there are fair labor practices ... not sure about Malaysia, but I find it distasteful that most Far East is so deeply entrenched in exploitation, and it's only through abject resignation that I end up buying products made with exploited labor.)

author: plesa
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 17, 2014, 10:46:17 pm
content: I recomends you to contact Keysighstore and ask them for types you would like to purchase.They have list of products which are going to be refurbished and can give you the timeline when it will be available in ebay store including expected list price.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 17, 2014, 10:50:17 pm
content: I'm not so sure about the Chinese getting exploited. Even the small slightly touristic towns in Europe are swamped by bus loads of Chinese people buying whatever luxury items they can get their hands on without looking at the price tag. The French generally expect people to speak French in their country but even they hire Chinese people to help their Chinese customers.Anyway, if you don't want to buy equipment made in Asia you should look at R&S/Hameg. They have their equipment build in the Eastern part of Europe (AFAIK).