Challenge Thread: The fastest breadboard oscillator on the mudball - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / projects

author: BreakingOhmsLaw
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2020, 09:55:51 pm
content: Hello everyone, i hope you are having a nice day. To have a little fun, let's start a challenge.The task is this:Build an oscillator on a breadboard, using nothing but discrete parts.The aim is to achieve the highest frequency on the EEVblog forum. The current record holder may call himself theincumbent master oscillatorfor the time the record is held.The rules:1. No ICs (duh!)2. No crystals / MEMS etc.3. No soldering except to add wires to SMT parts.All electrical connections between individual parts must be made by the breadboard contacts.4. The output signal shall be sine(-ish) and able to drive a 10k load at at least 5Volts peak to peak. UPDATE: You may deviate from this rule withitn reason as we have arrived at microwaves.5. Self-made discrete parts are allowed and encouraged.6. No cheating. Drilling a hole through your workbench to connect your tracking generator to the underside of the breadboard will be frowned upon.7. Post an image of your breadboard and counter/scope(Rule 6!) and brief info on the type of oscillator used.8. Bonus points for nerd value (old/strange/obsolete/abused/haywire parts, exact frequencies, etc.)EDIT: of course it is allowed to use common frequency doubling techniques, e.g. distorting and leeching harmonics. Knock yourself out.Current Incumbent Master Oscillator:User:joeqsmith @ 25,07 GHzIncumbent since: May 28th 2020https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/challenge-thread-the-fastest-breadboard-oscillator-on-the-mudball/msg3100558/#msg3100558Runner-up:User:PA0PBZ @ 4,77 GHzhttps://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/challenge-thread-the-fastest-breadboard-oscillator-on-the-mudball/msg3100288/#msg3100288Last update: June 20thI will kick off with a Colpitts oscillator using a BF256 JFET, tuned to exactly 7,77777MHz by moving my pinky towards the breadboard.May the best contender win! Go go go!

author: RoGeorge
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2020, 10:57:05 pm
content: Great idea!I'm in. Digging through scrap boxes...

author: max_torque
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2020, 01:04:00 pm
content: Hows about a sub section for SLOWEST oscilator as well(I'd suggest that for the slow oscilator you need to prove a minimum of 10 waveforms and their frequency needs to be within say 1% of each other to count?

author: Jan Audio
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2020, 01:58:21 pm
content: Now lets find out what the best breadboards are, i dont care about the oscillator.

author: ArthurDent
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2020, 02:08:07 pm
content: Here's a simple circuit that will generate sine waves into the microwave region although it won't output 10 volts.

author: ChristofferB
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2020, 02:26:15 pm
content: I feel like Gunn diodes would also be kinda cheating

author: RoGeorge
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2020, 03:55:58 pm
content: I've tried making a DYI tunnel diode likethis, but failed so far.Some other negative resistance based oscillators there:http://www.sparkbangbuzz.com/els/zincosc-el.htmStill tryin'.Nice blog this sitehttp://www.sparkbangbuzz.com, by the way.

author: trophosphere
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2020, 04:01:32 pm
content: I'm thinking about building a PECL ring oscillator built out of transistors fed through a low-pass filter. The wide voltage swing may be a problem.

author: ArthurDent
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2020, 04:18:13 pm
content: Quote from: ChristofferB on May 27, 2020, 02:26:15 pmLike you I had considered a gunn diode but I couldn't figure a good way to mount the cavity on a breadboard or to just eliminate the breadboard altogether.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2020, 04:28:40 pm
content: Quote from: BreakingOhmsLaw on May 26, 2020, 09:55:51 pmSo is the inductor in your Colpitts oscillator only parasitic?

author: BreakingOhmsLaw
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2020, 05:08:00 pm
content: No, the big ugly brown thing is a 10uH inductor 😁80's parts bin FTW!

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2020, 05:15:02 pm
content: Quote from: BreakingOhmsLaw on May 27, 2020, 05:08:00 pmOh, right!Hadn't seen one like this in ages...

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2020, 05:22:58 pm
content: Don't use low value ceramic caps, use the capacitance of the breadboard.

author: BreakingOhmsLaw
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2020, 05:31:55 pm
content: Quote from: max_torque on May 27, 2020, 01:04:00 pmI like the idea, but how to prove it? Extra slow roll mode on scope?Slowest oscillator will win the Galileo award ("And yet it moves!").

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2020, 05:50:22 pm
content: That said, it would be a fun challenge to make a Colpitts oscillator on a breadboard ONLY with parasitic inductance and capacitance from the breadboard itself. Might take a while before you find the right configuration to even make it oscillate.

author: ejeffrey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2020, 09:26:15 pm
content: Does a discrete laser diode count as a ~600 THz oscillator?

author: BreakingOhmsLaw
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2020, 10:06:36 pm
content: Quote from: ejeffrey on May 27, 2020, 09:26:15 pmI have trouble seeing how you are going to fulfill rule #4:QuoteBut if you do manage to do that, be sure to give Stockholm a call for your Nobel prize.

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 28, 2020, 12:42:09 am
content: Did this a whole bunch of years ago on another forum, actually... this is merely to whet your appetite, significantly more is possible of course.Schematic. A typical function generator with current mirrors, current-steering diodes, JFET buffer, and schmitt trigger. Both square and triangle outputs are provided, and more than enough bias is available to power a puny 10k resistor.Breadboarded.IIRC, maximum frequency was 33MHz, that must be 10ns/div. Flat out, no timing capacitor (other than transistor junctions and stray).With a more responsible, I think 680pF timing capacitor, 4MHz max. Which would make that 50ns/div. The ringing is junctions+stray ringing with the cap's lead inductance, which was considerable (~30nH) on account of not bothering to trim the leads.As it's a VCO, minimum frequency is simply a matter of turning it down all the way; IIRC, it was a chilly evening in the basement lab so the transistor leakage was a few nA, giving a minimum frequency of a few Hz; a dynamic range of 120dB!Tim

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 28, 2020, 12:48:57 am
content: Quote from: BreakingOhmsLaw on May 27, 2020, 10:06:36 pmMeh, they wouldn't be too interested, it's more a matter of definition than anything.I'd imagine one can construct an optical waveguide with dimensions (and indices of refraction) such that, given a reasonable definition of what volts and amperes mean in such an environment, that the voltage magnitude, and the real component of their ratio, are as desired.It's not something you can exactly poke some probes at, no; but that doesn't mean the concepts are utterly inapplicable. It's like... making a quantum mechanical definition of classical force; it can be done, it's just not very meaningful, or useful.As for other ideas, for myself; hmm, I wonder what the most I can do is. I have some ~3GHz transistors that could oscillate nicely if plugged into a breadboard. Most of which are SMT, so the plugging might not count, but I have some TO-18s of various types that can very much do the job.I'm tempted to plug in a vacuum tube, just because I know quite well that I can get a subminiature (wire leads instead of a socket -- particularly breadboardable!) pentode to oscillate ca. 400MHz. Much more than that, I'm not sure; maybe a UHF triode (6HA5?) in a socket, on leads; don't really have anything hotter than that, though (I don't happen to have any planar triodes, alas).As for sine waves, best I can do as far as verification is my 1.5GHz spectrum analyzer; if it's oscillating over 1.5GHz, you'd just have to take my word for it that it's not distorting or squeggingtoobadly.Also if you allow other types of breadboarding besides the solderless socket kind, you may find quite impressive results from some members here (10GHz+ test equipment included).Tim

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 28, 2020, 01:38:10 am
content: Quote10k at 5Vp-p seems a bit odd. Does this mean at DC, you read 10K with your ohm meter? Don't suppose I could talk you into something a bit more like say 0dBm @ 50ohms? Can drift and have as much phase noise as we want? Are there any constraints on the breadboard? For example, can contact be removed or cut down? Is there a limit to how much money is spent on it?Can we install more than one wire into a hole on the breadboard?Thinking about other mods on the breadboard, can we add foil below to tie some of the contact bars together?*************************Bad luck as another knob fell off the LeCroy and I can't seem to find it. The mechanics of this scope are the worse I have ever seen. Too bad as it's not a bad scope otherwise.With no changes to the breadboard, one hole per wire, all connections on breadboard. I don't like playing with the higher voltage levels. 50ohms is common for RF and my faster scope is only rated for 4Vpeak max. For now I am using the 600MHz with the missing knob. Guessing a cat toy.This is my first attempt using a single RF transistor. Nothing too far out there. It seems to start just fine. It's really limited by that stupid breadboard. Guessing if I pull out some of the sections and shorten up a few and make some sort of plane, I could reduce some of this god awful capacitance.Consider that my entry.*********************Small update. Running it with the 600MHz scope, I assume it greatly attenuates the signal. The Signal Hound SA is rated for +20dBm max but I installed a step attenuator and worked my way up. I had to overdrive the part to get above 0dBm.The oscillator is VERY unstable and uses about 50KHz. That's assuming you don't go near it.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 28, 2020, 06:58:37 am
content: Quote from: madires on May 27, 2020, 05:22:58 pmCoupled, literally, with the inductance of the wires.Here's an example in professional production equipment, a Tek 184. Notice the stirrup with the 1.2-3.5pF tuning capacitor, and the piece of bent wire behind that. It operates at 500MHz.

author: TheUnnamedNewbie
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 28, 2020, 07:04:49 am
content: I unfortunately do not have access to my stuff here as I'm in the process of moving and renovating and it is all packed up in a garage, but would second the idea of having it rather be power into 50 ohms or something (and maybe even less than 0dBm?). I personally feel like the requirement of having a large output power limits some really interesting and novel approaches you could make.

author: RoGeorge
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 28, 2020, 10:50:36 am
content: Any signal can be amplified or attenuated, so I will consider the rules about amplitude and load resistance as optional.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 28, 2020, 11:32:31 am
content: I added a few pictures showing the amplitude of my entry. I wouldn't mind seeing the load and amplitude requirements drop as well. The title was fastest, so leave that 10K who knows what outside of DC load for the audio group.

author: Berni
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 28, 2020, 11:34:34 am
content: Interesting challenge there, looking forward to what people come up with.Maybe i will have a go at it, tho i don't think il get far with just garden verity components from my junk bin.Are there any extra points for turning it into a radio transmitter? I think you can radiate a fair bit of RF once you get >100MHz along the distances of a breadboard.

author: BreakingOhmsLaw
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 28, 2020, 02:58:19 pm
content: QuoteThere lies the hidden challenge. Selecting the right resistor for the job. Remember the difference between metal-film and carbon resistors?But since we've already progressed into the GHz Area, i suppose it's okay to deviate from this rule within reason.QuoteYes, we are building circuits on ayagibreadboardQuotenoQuotenoQuoteno, see rule #3QuotenoAs far as i can see, your entry seems valid, so for now, you take the cake.Looking forward to other members picking up the gauntlet.I am surprised noone has mentioned snap-off diodes yet.

author: ejeffrey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 28, 2020, 03:38:04 pm
content: Quote from: BreakingOhmsLaw on May 27, 2020, 10:06:36 pmThis certainly gets a bit tricky to figure out. Voltage isn't an easy thing to define for a propagating EM wave since there is a curl-E != 0 so there is no perfectly defined conservative electric potential -- although you can make an approximate one in many situations. 5 volts p-p into 10k is only 300 microwatts, so the raw power isn't the issue. The impedance of free space is 377 ohm, which is the ratio of E to H for propagating waves in free space. 5 volt pk-pk into 377 ohm is 10 mW, so a moderate laser diode can actually have a big enough E field to be comparable to the specification you posted.Of course measuring that electric field directly on an oscilloscope is... difficult but you could argue that is the fault of the oscilloscope not the oscillator. There are actually techniques to make something similar to a sampling scope that can directly measure a repetitive electric field at optical frequencies, but they wouldn't work on a simple laser diode and in any case would look pretty silly connected to a breadboard oscillator. You could certainly view the signal on an optical spectrum analyzer.Anyway, definitely violates at least the spirit of the challenge, mostly just an interesting aside.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 28, 2020, 05:11:11 pm
content: Shown are three different techniques.Left, using some semi-ridged. Can this be used as long as at least one end is terminated to the protoboard? For example could one end be soldered to a single pin of a single component as long as the other end plugs in? Can multiple ground wires be added to the shield and plugged into the board? I would assume if this is allowed, that soldering two sections of coax together by their shields would not be.Center, showing some sort of make shift heat sinkish sort of plane. Any problem stitching sections together like this for what ever purpose?QuoteRight, showing what I meant by plugging two components into a single hole. They are still in contact with the connector. I just want to make sure you understood what I meant.I'm not sure if ANY of these practices would be helpful or not and am just trying to understand the constraints we have to work with.Adafruit offers a 4X4 breadboard. I was trying to find something for sale with something other than the standard 5 pin connectors. If something like this were say 4 rows of 4 inner connections, would it be allowed? Same for other breadboards? As long as its something standard that anyone could purchase, is it allowed so long as it is that standard white board, proto board, plug board or what ever we call this stuff now days?https://www.adafruit.com/product/2463**** Sorry, rescaled picture *****

author: BreakingOhmsLaw
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 28, 2020, 06:08:59 pm
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on May 28, 2020, 05:11:11 pmWhat's the forums opinion on this?QuoteI guess we need to allow this for mechanical stability.Solder on Coax to coax, no.QuoteThat's perfectly okay and the kind of creative thinking we are looking for.QuoteYes, understood, but that would be againts the spirit of the challenge.QuoteEncouraged in order to gain knowledge about good breadboards.Thanks for contributing!Where are the contenders? I'm out myself, my counter just goes to 1Ghz :-D

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 29, 2020, 01:56:32 am
content: Using the same setup, except using that section of semi-ridged for the output rather than the flimsy SMA, I made an attempt to tune it. The problem is the amount of capacitance of those stupid connector blocks. While your rules will not allow removing or cutting them, we certainly can skip over one to cut the capacitance down. This helped.First picture showing the fundamental and first harmonic. This is with 10dB attenuation. The second picture, zoomed in to the fundamental with the attenuator set to zero. We lost a little gain. The fan blowing the power leads makes a difference. It's really unstable.Also shown with it attached to the old LeCroy. Still have not found the missing knob. I'm surprised we can see anything with it being well over double the 600MHz.I did find an old perfboard that had similar 2 row connectors like what you see typically for the power rails but instead they were 2pin pairs. If you could make a custom perfboard with these attached to the edges, we could drop some of that capacitance.

author: RoGeorge
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 29, 2020, 05:50:16 am
content: For a schematic with a diode that generates avalanche noise near reverse breakdown, followed by a filter and an amplifier, would that be cheating?

author: BreakingOhmsLaw
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 29, 2020, 07:04:15 am
content: Quote from: RoGeorge on May 29, 2020, 05:50:16 amIf you can pull that off with discrete components, go for it.I would expect that you will have a hard time getting a narrow enough discrete filter to pick a single frequency from noise. But i'm always ready to be proven wrong.Therefore, my advice would be to build the fastest oscillator you can, use a snap-off diode to clamp it, and filter one of the fundamentals that are created by the brutal distortion of the diode. Harmonics will have enough separation to have a chance of selecting one without an opamp.

author: BreakingOhmsLaw
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 29, 2020, 07:14:36 am
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on May 29, 2020, 01:56:32 amQuoteHint: The rules don't forbid shielding. Recycle some tinfoil hats.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 29, 2020, 01:00:57 pm
content: QuotePlease provide a clear definition of "individual parts" and "discrete parts".The wires used to connect the components to the breadboard, at what point they are themselves considered an individual or discrete part, requiring each lead to be inserted into the breadboard?In picture10 for example, which of these are considered inductors and require both ends be inserted into the breadboard?In picture11 we have two wires that came a little too close to one another and have some strange twists. Is this just interconnection wire, or is this an LC filter with some series resistance?

author: BreakingOhmsLaw
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 29, 2020, 01:58:16 pm
content: All of these are fine - the rule is in place to prevent that people will do all the connections free floating with solder and bypass the breadboard.Your examples are fair game. Twisting wires to get an inductive transfer is allowed and encouraged ( and definately needed where you are headed)"individiual parts" as in separate parts that are not physically joined. A transformer may be two or more coils from an electrical point of view, but they cannot be separated."discrete parts": That definition is hard to make.Classically: An electronic component with just a single circuit element.As for transistors that have internal protection circuitry (diodes, resistors): Allowed, as long as that protection element does not become an integral part of the oscillator.I also would not have anything against resistor or capacitor arrays. They may have an internal common pin, but you still need to wire each one individually.

author: BreakingOhmsLaw
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 29, 2020, 02:40:45 pm
content: So, a brief summary so far:We had some good suggestions from users how to approach this. Joeqsmith has set the bar high right from the start, honoring the old RF engineers mantra, thateverything below 1GHz is DC.Hopefully some other members are busy cooking up circuits and reaching for the title.If you have built a circuit, but haven't posted it yet because you are below the currect record, i still encourage you to post it for the educational value and to get suggestions from other members on how to improve it.Generating RF from scratch is a fun way to touch a lot of topics: oscillators, filters, shielding, parasitics, analog circuit design and many others.What inspired this thread is that i remembered engineering school nearly thirty years ago. One of the teachers, in order to make studies more exciting for his students, always had us do stuff like this instead of written homework. I remember many hours hunched over a stripboard, fiddling current mirrors, amplifiers, opamps and whatnot. In hindsight, I learned more about electronics doing that, than in all the other classes combined. Sadly, that teacher passed away two years ago. I have much to thank him for.So, Rüdiger, if you are up there reading this: Thanks, you were a legend!Ok, enough nostalgia. Carry on!

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 29, 2020, 11:02:31 pm
content: Quote from: BreakingOhmsLaw on May 29, 2020, 01:58:16 pmThe problem is even something as simple as a wire can be fairly complex. I didn't spend much time trying to optimize the LC until I make sure you understand that the whole idea of using it is to isolate the base from that large capacitor. I've attached a circuit diagram that I hope will explain it. It's a three wire device. Two wires are plugged into the breadboard, the other is soldered directly to the base. The twisted section forms the capacitor, so it's not directly touching anything and for DC is an open.The knobless LeCroy shows it at 22GHz which is obviously not close to correct. The signal is too high for the 600MHz scope and it attenuates it too much to get a good reading.The antique DSO seems to do a decent job. This scope has a 4GHz front end but the signal isn't stable enough with RIS.If this technique is deemed legal, the next step would be to tune it and add a similar stage to the output.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2020, 12:47:41 am
content: If the previous LC circuit is deemed acceptable, I would like to use this conical coil.This should provide some idea just how unstable it is. As long as this isn't a metric being used and it is solely based on output frequency, I'm fine with it.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2020, 06:20:06 pm
content: If the conical magnet wire LC circuits are alright to use, I would then like to also use this same technique to couple to the output coax. I don't like putting DC into my test equipment if it can be helped. I would use an external block but that seems like it opens a can of worms for other in-line devices. So for now, I will stay with direct connection using coax. Using the magnet wire to form the DC block would remove one column of contacts further reducing the loading capacitance.Someone had recently asked about using nail polish for RF work. I had ran some tests on this particular bottle and would like to introduce it as a method to stabilize the coils.https://www.eevblog.com/forum/rf-microwave/fingernail-polish-and-rf-front-ends-do-they-mix/If these methods are still within the rules, I would like to submit the next entry.In realtime, my highest end scope can only sample at 20GS/s in realtime. That's a bit too under sampled, so I captured it in RIS at 200GS/s. It has a nice shape to it.With this last LC network, the base is basically decoupled from the column of contacts (AC wise) and the connection is purely to satisfy the rules of wanting the parts attached to the breadboard. However, nothing else connects to that section except through parasitics. It would be nice to remove that inductor.As the speeds continue to go up the definitions become more important.

author: RoGeorge
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2020, 07:23:27 pm
content: New rule:Close-up photo of the breadboard required!

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2020, 08:35:33 pm
content: Quote from: RoGeorge on May 30, 2020, 07:23:27 pmPersonally, I don't have any problems with that. Here are a few.

author: RoGeorge
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2020, 08:43:36 pm
content: That's a good start, waiting for the pics with the rest of the circuit...Meanwhile curios to take a closer look at this mystery circuit here, please:

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2020, 09:04:34 pm
content: I've tried to clear the way for the real high speed designers on the forum that Tim mentions. Surely they will topple any of my lame efforts with their 10GHz+ equipment.Quote from: T3sl4co1l on May 28, 2020, 12:48:57 amRather than try and follow, step up and show us what you can do.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2020, 09:49:08 pm
content: Of course, if you really want to see the next revision up close, watch the start of this next clip. I'm sure I am pushing the rules with this one but it's just hookup wire. Up to the OP to decide if it's a valid approach. If this is within the rules, I think 3G is on the table.

author: BreakingOhmsLaw
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2020, 10:24:17 pm
content: Enamel wire makeshift-LC equivalents are okay!

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2020, 10:51:15 pm
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on May 30, 2020, 09:04:34 pmWhat if the problem is @Hugoneus and others, don't have a solderless breadboard?Tim

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2020, 11:16:34 pm
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on May 30, 2020, 06:20:06 pmHow about using two adjacent rows? Typically about 4pF.Tim

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2020, 11:19:08 pm
content: Quote from: BreakingOhmsLaw on May 30, 2020, 10:24:17 pmThis makes the rules pretty clear. Now all we need are the challengers.Quote from: T3sl4co1l on May 30, 2020, 10:51:15 pmGood point but surely if you can afford 10GHz TE, you can pick up a $10 breadboard. You can't let this old hobbyist with his slow equipment that the knobs won't even stay on, become the "incumbent master oscillator"Come out and show us those honed skills of yours!!***************Many are under $5.https://www.digikey.com/products/en/prototyping-fabrication-products/solderless-breadboards/638?k=breadboard

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2020, 11:27:17 pm
content: Quote from: T3sl4co1l on May 30, 2020, 11:16:34 pmThe problem are each row has a lot of parasitics that you need to consider. Mine is mounted to some plastic to get it up off the copper. Our host has been pretty generous with the rules and I wouldn't call fowl if someone mounted their breadboard to a half inch slab of Teflon.

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2020, 11:31:41 pm
content: Eh so what, you're just trying to get the signal out, not get a 1.05 VSWR.Oh, on that subject -- I would suggest flexibility in that, because I have several breadboards with metal base plates. They aren't particularly useful as RF ground planes -- there aren't any vias to them, let alone exactly where and when you need a via for a particular layout -- but I have found them useful from time to time by putting a binding post into the metal, and getting at least some electrostatic shielding that way. (Often the binding posts are provided, they're just insulated with washers; removing the washers and scraping some paint is all that's needed to guarantee a proper connection. Perhaps not technically stock anymore, but an easy enough mod?)Tim

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2020, 11:52:25 pm
content: The columns of contacts will couple to others around them and they in turn will couple to ones around them. It's not just between the two. You would need to consider all of these paths. Don't forget that the name of the game here is "fastest", not most stable, best matched, lowest distortion, lowest power draw, least parts used or lowest cost. Even how clean it looks doesn't matter. From what I understand, there's only the one goal.Personally, I wouldn't have any problems with someone mounting their breadboard to metal and using that. As long as the contacts below are not connected DC wise to the plate as we already had that discussion, you should be all set.I'm also not apposed to what ever diode, transistor, FET you care to use or how you connect them. Our host has already disallowed ICs but they did cover the resistors used internal to some RF transistors. Some time ago, we had a new member going off about some strange new oscillator they had designed. Something totally novel. A few of us spent some time trying to help them along. During that I made this video showing a simple oscillator running a couple of LEDs in avalanche.If you wanted to use LEDs, I would be fine with it.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 31, 2020, 12:02:00 am
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on May 30, 2020, 11:27:17 pmWhat is the reasoning behind a conical coil? (RF n00b)

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 31, 2020, 12:16:17 am
content: https://passive-components.eu/what-is-a-conical-inductor/

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 31, 2020, 10:47:44 pm
content: Go fast or go home!https://www.cycledrag.com/nhdro-motorcycle-drag-racing-series-race-report

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 31, 2020, 10:55:12 pm
content: Hard to say if it skirts the rules. The conical coil was removed and the base is now tied directly to the feedback capacitor (the coil around the output). All the magnet wire was trimmed down.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 31, 2020, 11:10:24 pm
content: Would a high voltage supply powering a tube used as an Xray generator be the highest frequency attainable on a breadboard? (I'm assuming just placing a gamma emitter on it wouldn't count because it's not electrical.) Actually building such a high voltage supply entirely on a breadboard is another problem, but it's possible - remove unused contacts to increase separation and submerge the high voltage part of the breadboard in oil. Or just build a Tesla coil using a tiny breadboard to connect the secondary to the tube in order to satisfy the requirement that all parts must be connected via breadboard.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 31, 2020, 11:20:06 pm
content: We are not allowed to remove contacts or cut them down or short between them below the board. Basically, he wants the breadboard left original.However, I see no reason that the supply would have to be built onto a breadboard anyway. I'm certainly not including one.

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 01, 2020, 12:43:02 am
content: Quote from: NiHaoMike on May 31, 2020, 11:10:24 pmWhy not run a Farnsworth fusor and make gammas too?But as previously discussed, optical and such... aren't very easy to measure the voltage or waveform of. Probably better leaving things in TEM0 mode, i.e., normal baseband electrical signals in transmission lines.That does remind me though, I do have a reflex klystron or two; don't think any are higher than what's been shown here (just checked, one is merely 1450MHz). It's basically self contained, so I could plug it into an octal base, modified (drilled out..) for the coaxial output electrode, which I'd have to hack by, like, just clipping an antenna onto it and sensing it in proximity with another wire going to my analyzer. Anyway, the socket would have pigtails that plug into the breadboard, which would still meet the spirit of the challenge I think.Unfortunately I don't have a negative high voltage supply to hand (it needs both positive plate voltage and negative reflector voltage); well, I guess I could use an isolation transformer and rectifier... mmh. Rather not drill out a socket either.Tim

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 01, 2020, 01:41:06 am
content: Thinking about it some more, could a breadboard be used as the Xray source itself simply by placing it in a vacuum chamber? The power supply would be a Tesla coil, connected between opposite ends and residual air in the chamber would allow a tiny bit of ionization to happen.But if "conventional" EM waves are the subject, the line between microwaves and IR is 300GHz. How close have hobbyists been able to get to that line?

author: MiDi
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 01, 2020, 11:01:52 am
content: Interesting challenge!Wondering what rules would be broken if a Laser-Diode is used.The output power requirement of >0.3mW is easily achieveable.I am aware that this is not the intention of the challenge

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 01, 2020, 11:24:09 am
content: Aren't breadboards pierced by gamma rays every day, just from the mere fact of being placed on Earth?...Somehow this conversation is departing from the spirit of the challenge, just possibly!@Joeqsmith has set the bar very high. I can't even measure anything that high frequency! I've never really been a super RF buff. Maybe it's time to put something together as the first fumbling step... How hard can it be etc. etc. (rabbit hole!)

author: MiDi
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 01, 2020, 12:33:53 pm
content: The term oscillator implies that it has a large coherence length - or in other words - the oscillation is continous and keeps nearly constant phase during operation.This disqualifies all uncorrelated "noise sources".

author: Berni
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 01, 2020, 01:06:36 pm
content: Yeah i don't have any RF semiconductors laying around to make things this fast.Unless perhaps a separate category is introduced for also furfilling the original 5Vpp output amplitude requirement. So something where the output could be used as a clock generator. Only problem with that is that it gives an advantage to people with active scope probes (the loading of a passive probe at >100MHz is horrendous due to its capacitance, so you might as well go 50Ohm at that point). But there is also the good ol DIY 1K into 50Ohm cable poor mans low loading probe, works surprisingly well.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 01, 2020, 01:12:25 pm
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on June 01, 2020, 11:24:09 amThey wouldn't be generating the gamma rays, just (slightly) attenuating and backscattering them.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 01, 2020, 01:53:53 pm
content: Quote from: Berni on June 01, 2020, 01:06:36 pmIs there a simple/ cheap'n'cheerful way of measuring RF voltage? E.g. would a simple 'rectifier+capacitor on a stick' concept work?

author: BreakingOhmsLaw
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 01, 2020, 05:44:39 pm
content: Great work and nice video! @Joe!Bar raised to 6,3196 GHz!

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 02, 2020, 01:49:10 am
content: Thanks for allowing these latest changes.This is a link to an old RAP article on breadboards:https://www.electronicdesign.com/archive/article/21770186/whats-all-this-smwisicdsi-stuff-anyhow

author: Berni
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 02, 2020, 05:30:58 am
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on June 01, 2020, 01:53:53 pmI have seen people use single wave rectifiers to measure RF with a multimeter. Not sure how accurate it is over the frequency range, but I'm guessing it could be pretty good if a fancy RF diode is used along with careful RF layout. For it to be accurate you would probably need to characterize the linearity for amplitude and frequency (So means needing RF test gear). But to be able to tell there is 5Vpp of signal it would work.You still need test gear to check the frequency of your oscillator anyway. So at that point its easier to just make your own "low loading probe" by soldering a 1K on the end of a 50 Ohm coax like so:http://jahonen.kapsi.fi/Electronics/DIY%201k%20probe/Its really easy to make and can apparently work past 1GHz while still looking pretty much like a 1K resistor + some parasitics. Since it has a lot of attenuation also means that it can look at a very large signal before it would overload the input of a spectrum analyzer. I used the trick before and it really does work well. Never compared it to an actual active probe tho.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2020, 05:15:19 pm
content: Guessing home made wires are fine to use.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2020, 07:17:19 pm
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on June 05, 2020, 05:15:19 pmLOL, you know when you start making your own wires, you are getting picky!

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 06, 2020, 12:37:45 am
content: Here I was, assembling my BF494-based RC oscillator directly from my ancient FM transmitter circuits, when I stumble upon joeqsmith's 6GHz voodoo contraption. KO!

author: capacitor_explosion
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 06, 2020, 06:50:53 pm
content: Hello everybody,At first I thought that more people would join in on the fun and take part in the challenge but sensei joeqsmith did an amazing job with his oscillator blowing my mind at firs but i was not going to quit.So this is my entry in the challenge , I have designed a Colpitts Oscillator emitter follower by the suggestion of my friend and eevblog forum member Mazo .Measured with a Siglent SDS 1104X-E (non hacked ) 100Mhz oscilloscope .• All the connections to the board are made with the breadboard .• The transistor is TO-23 with soldered extension pins to fit in the breadboard .• And I have an smd 0603 100nH CCFH inductor with soldered extension pins.Other components are typical thru hole .. Frankly speaking the signal is decreased significantly but still able to observe 90Mhz sine wave . I have glimpses of the signal going to 350mhz but I cannot catch it on shot . However I’m not giving up just yet . Maybe next week I will return with a more beefier oscilloscope and presumably a faster signal .

author: BreakingOhmsLaw
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 06, 2020, 08:01:22 pm
content: Great job! Now try using SMD resistors instead. These through-hole carbon resistors are basically a carbon coating with a spiral cut into it. Thus, they have significant parasitic induction since it's shaped like a coil.Of course, one could also abuse that particular property to his or her advantage...

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 06, 2020, 10:52:41 pm
content: Quote from: capacitor_explosion on June 06, 2020, 06:50:53 pmNice job!

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 07, 2020, 05:17:27 am
content: I see a piece of soldered breadboard over on the right; this looks like another qualifier.Tim

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2020, 12:04:57 am
content: Mounting the connector to the breadboard has been a problem. The cables will put a fair bit of stress on it. One solution would be to bolt a bracket to the breadboard with a panel mount connector. I made up some Teflon cables today to connect to the breadboard and DSO. These cables are very flexible, like a wet noodle. I also have added a couple of copper wire loops around the coax to help secure it.

author: TheUnnamedNewbie
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2020, 06:27:00 am
content: Quote from: NiHaoMike on June 01, 2020, 01:41:06 amI don't fully agree that the line between microwaves (well, technically millimeter-waves at that point) and IR is 300 GHz, generally people would say that you have sub-THz first (300 GHz -> a few THz).There are at least a few HAMs (WA1ZMS, W4WWQ, W2SZ, WA4RTS) that have done some stuff at those frequencies, 300-400 GHz. This was all with 'conventional' RF techniques (IE, no lasers or optics, but transistors and diodes and mixers).While the numbers are impressive, it isn't that fundamentally different from RF at a few GHz. The main issue is just that *everything* matters, and you need to use waveguides or expensive very small PCB technologies.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2020, 03:46:57 am
content: Demonstrating LeCroy's Digital Bandwidth Interleaving along with my simple down converter, limitations with nail polish and my more recent attempt at making a fast oscillator on a breadboard.

author: herc
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2020, 10:31:40 am
content: do you know the "twist oscillator" ? it operates in the GHz domain and it is very intriguing, because it just needs 5 components. details can be found at this link:http://jf.fourcadier.pagesperso-orange.fr/hyperfrequences/twist/oscill.htm

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2020, 03:16:09 pm
content: Quote from: herc on June 10, 2020, 10:31:40 amI have not heard of the "twist" oscillator but the idea of using feedback has been around since the oscillator and using wire to form capacitors, inductors and delay lines is certainly nothing novel. While it's more commonly known as a phase shift oscillator, I guess I could call mine the double summersault oscillator with twist technology feedback. Add a few spark plugs and claim it has something to do with free energy.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2020, 04:34:51 pm
content: Quote from: herc on June 10, 2020, 10:31:40 amIt's interesting! Getting ahold of the MSA08-86, which is apparently an Agilent part, may not be that easy though.This shop seems to have it:https://dutchrfshop.nl/en/drfs-parts/73-msa08-86.html(The whole article, in french:http://jf.fourcadier.pagesperso-orange.fr/hyperfrequences/twist/twist.htm)

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2020, 06:25:14 pm
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on June 10, 2020, 03:16:09 pmI'm guessing we are dealing with a literal translation from French, somewhere along the line - what's the betting that the French word for "twist" is used similar to the English word "phase", right?

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2020, 06:48:20 pm
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on June 10, 2020, 06:25:14 pmI assumed it was from their picture of the twisted wires. I looked it up using a French dictionary and it appears to have the same use. We would need a French EE to chime in.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2020, 06:53:28 pm
content: Indeed, it's related to the resonant circuit which is basically a twisted pair. "Le circuit résonant est constitué d'une simple torsade, le "twist", dont la longueur conditionne la fréquence de fonctionnement de l'oscillateur. "http://jf.fourcadier.pagesperso-orange.fr/hyperfrequences/twist/torsade.htm

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2020, 08:07:23 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on June 10, 2020, 06:53:28 pmSo the "twist" is the whole LC circuit - both inductor and capacitor - in this design? Or does it act as a "gimmick capacitor"?

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2020, 08:53:11 pm
content: It's an open transmission line stub. The first mode is a series resonance; it's a Pierce oscillator I believe.Tim

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2020, 01:04:42 am
content: Playing around with the new transistors..

author: trash
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2020, 11:21:21 am
content: QuoteI'm guessing you're just referring to the BFR93 section and not the MSA08 MMIC. Does MMIC count as an "IC"?(Monolithic Microwave Integrated Circuit) Because with a careful piece of what man magic, I can make those critters oscillate very easily.In some cases they have issues with them oscillating a bit too often.Looks like I'm going to have to get in on this gig because I've got some ideas that really need to be put to the bench and now I have an excuse.

author: LaserSteve
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2020, 12:35:11 pm
content: So if I stick a 10 mW X-band Gunn diode on a soldered breadboard does that count? I do not have any solderless ones. I know for a fact I will see a Vhf fundamental. Then big spikes in X-BAND.IN other words does it have to be clean? Because with a spark gap you could make oscillations out to say 60 Ghz.Steve

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2020, 12:58:56 pm
content: Quote from: LaserSteve on June 11, 2020, 12:35:11 pmI was thinking the same thing (spark gap) but the challenge of filtering out and amplifying a signal up to 5V is still there... and not exactly easy for high frequencies!

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2020, 02:35:04 pm
content: 22AWG solid TFE insulation swept from 2.2-2.6GHz.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2020, 02:45:16 pm
content: Quote from: T3sl4co1l on June 10, 2020, 08:53:11 pmAbsolutely. And it's mentioned in the article: "L'oscillateur est de type Pierce"

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2020, 03:46:06 pm
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on June 11, 2020, 02:35:04 pmI'm not good at interpreting Smith charts... What does it mean, that the plot follows the circle?

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2020, 09:57:47 pm
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on June 11, 2020, 03:46:06 pmThat's fine. There are several good videos and text materials available for free on-line if you are interested. For now, let me just show you a simple test. In the attached graph looking at S11, I have swept the twisted wires shown above from 2350 to 2450 MHz. I then swept a small trimmer capacitor over that same range.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2020, 04:02:47 am
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on June 11, 2020, 09:57:47 pmso is the twisted pair adding more capacitance, effectively, than a capacitor of the same nominal value - due to the time it takes for the wave to propagate to the end of it?

author: herc
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2020, 05:12:24 am
content: no, it's called "twist oscillator", because it twists my shortwave-noob brain, trying to understand why a pair of twisted wires can act as a resonator ;-)-----https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stub_(electronics)#Resonant_stubQuote

author: trash
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2020, 12:39:45 pm
content: My first attempt came up with ~1.6GHz, I was able to push it to 1.8GHz and keep the stability.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2020, 03:21:04 pm
content: Quote from: trash on June 12, 2020, 12:39:45 pmNice job.

author: trash
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2020, 08:37:10 am
content: Hitting a bit of a wall at the moment. 2GHz seems to be where I can get a stable carrier, above that it gets a bit sloppy.I haven't resorted to any white man magic just yet and I've been sticking with a fundamental frequency.I'll get to multiplication trickery later

author: trash
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2020, 08:50:09 am
content: A few people mentioned using a tunnel diode but I didn't see anybody actually try.So I thought I'd give it a go since I have a few of them sitting in a drawer.Compared to the transistor based oscillator I'm able to get similar frequencies but there is a lot of spurious noise that comes with them.You can see on the rectum paralyser there are carriers around 500-700MHz, with a lot of spurious noise at ~1.8GHz and a carrier at 1.895GHz.The circuit is a simple voltage divider to give 700mV and I've used the wire lead of the diode as an inductor and a home made capacitor using some double sided circuit board sandwiched into the inductor loop. I tried to completely remove the capacitor and just rely on parasitic inductance but the result was more a white noise source around 3GHz rather than what I consider to be an actual carrier. I'll come back to this idea in the future when I've had a bit more time to think about it.And a still have a few other dirty tricks up my sleeve to get up into C band.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2020, 02:33:27 pm
content: If you keep increasing your speeds and I will have to find some better parts.. Has your signal dropped from -10 to below -40dBm or are you attenuating the signal?Everything I have shown so far was the fundamental.Good luck and looking forward to watching your progress!

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2020, 08:06:08 pm
content: I'll match your 2GHz....

author: trash
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2020, 02:06:00 am
content: I might call for some adjudication of joeqsmith's "Breadboard" oscillator.Not to sound like I'm sour, quite the opposite. I giggle with an evil laugh at all the ways I can easily bend the rules and take the title with no effort. If I use minimal effort then I consider myself to be cheating. The very point of a contest is to get the maximum effort.Lets start with is actually oscillating here?Is his source as he says in the video the YIG, because they YIG is what I consider to be an integrated circuit.If you remove the breadboard from this picture does the oscillator stop working?Def: Integrated - with various parts or aspects linked or coordinated.The YIG itself is an active device. You give it power, it gives you signal. All of the components that make it work are inside the YIG chassis.For the same reason I have not just walked into this competition and pulled a 70GHz gunn diode module off the shelf with a varactor multiplier to take it to +200GHz. By that logic somebody will then bring an LED to the contest and claim 470THz before I retaliate with a Walton-Cockroft voltage multiplier and start cranking X-rays of at 50PHz. And that would actually qualify as a valid signal. I can then take it one step further with a source of gamma rays. An Am-241 source stuck in one hole of the breadboard and we're done.Ok, so lets come back and look at what the limiting factor is here. It's the breadboard. If the breadboard is not integral to the oscillator, then it's not a breadboard circuit, it's an external circuit plugged into the breadboard and defeats the purpose of the engineering competition.Now the power requirements I have not paid a lot of attention to simply because when the definition was first set nobody thought we'd be playing in the GHz where 0dBm is a lot of signal. There's nothing stopping me just putting an amplifier on the output and I'm back up to +3dBm and well within the rules. It's a bit of a known quantity. So I stick with keeping the signal clearly defined above the noise.That's easy for me on a spectrum analyser. 10dB above noise floor is almost no signal. If there was doubt, I'd just amplify the carrier.I've also tried to stick with the generated frequencies of the oscillator so far. I'm not sure if I consider multiplying up fair play.My dirtiest trick is just to use a waveguide varactor diode and plug the lead into the breadboard, dump the highest frequency signal I can into it with as much power as possible and claim the highest frequency on the comb as the winner.My problem is not so much with using the varactor diode as the multipler, but the waveguide is not part of the breadboard.My dirty trick would be to claim the waveguide as the transition interface from the breadboard to the spectrum anaylser.Cheating logic says I can't connect the varactor to the breadboard and it needs the waveguide as a chassis to support it.If I can get away with that, then I can change the varactor diode for a gunn diode in exactly the same chassis and claim a win of 70GHz without any real effort.So you can see from my own posts the limitation of my output frequency is the breadboard, not the gunn diode module that I can attach to it.To avoid the use of the module I have even though of ways of soldering leads to the gunn diode so I can plug it into the breadboard and then run it without the modular chassis. You've seen the trickery I can do with a 1970's tunnel diode.Make the breadboard work for you, don't fight it.Anyhow, would some people like to consider if Joe's YIG oscillator is fair play and then I'll make my next moveI would also like comment on any of my own circuits. If you think something is cheating, please by all means speak up, because I will cheat any chance I can get. (within the rules). And don't think I can't better the energy levels on Am-241 gamma rays

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2020, 02:46:39 am
content: Quote from: trash on June 14, 2020, 02:06:00 amBend the rules as much as you like. It won't bother me one bit and I will gladly turn over the lead position. Let see what you come up with.Quote from: trash on June 14, 2020, 02:06:00 amThe YIG is only used as the local oscillator for the downconversion. I was actually concerned that some viewers may not fully understand and this is why I showed the signal at the splitter with the YIG disconnected:https://youtu.be/AllzRi4uCy0?t=88The downconversion process was explained here:https://youtu.be/D33lCZAYmMM?t=376If you watch the last video, you will notice that was not using the downconverter to display the waveform on the scope. I explained the reason why at the start of the video. I had tried it and in 8GHzYIG1, you can see the our oscillator running at almost 12GHz. The YIG was adjusted to 8GHz for this test, giving an IF of 4GHz. It looks somewhat clean but all of the parts used in the downconversion take their toll on attenuating the signal. In 8GHzYIG2, you can see the scope is reading roughly 4GHz from the IF.13p2GHz is showing pretty much the limit without getting a better part. Notice again, there is no YIG. Just a counter. I would have liked to have shown what it looks like on the scope but the YIG and mixer I have just won't cut it at these speeds.Of course, the power supply, counter and sections of coax are not mounted on the breadboard. From the OP's rule: "7. Post an image of your breadboard and counter/scope(Rule 6!) and brief info on the type of oscillator used." I understood these were not part of the oscillator. I am at the point where I can no longer display the waveform on my scope.Quote from: trash on June 14, 2020, 02:06:00 amI don't see a problem with it being low.Quote from: trash on June 14, 2020, 02:06:00 amThe OP had covered this "EDIT: of course it is allowed to use common frequency doubling techniques, e.g. distorting and leeching harmonics. Knock yourself out." Also see their comment below:Quote from: BreakingOhmsLaw on May 29, 2020, 07:04:15 amAgain, it's just for fun.Quote from: trash on June 14, 2020, 02:06:00 amHope this helps explain the purpose of the YIG and downconversion.

author: trash
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2020, 03:06:34 am
content: Yep, that's all cool. Originally I figured the YIG was your down converter Local oscillator, just the last video looked like you were using it as the oscillator.I'm not going to go off the reservation to try and win a title. I'm staying on the breadboardAnd my hope is that other people will realise that the circuits we're using are actually really simple ones. I have about five or six different common base oscillator circuits or variations on them. They're simple and stable but I've never built them on breadboard before, which is the challenge.I've still got some great legit dirty tricks up my sleeve and when I hit a limit I'll toy with those ideas.But I'm a long way from component limits at the moment.I'll also be away from my work bench for a few days so you won't see any more development on it until next weekend.

author: trash
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2020, 03:27:03 am
content: For those interested in the circuit I'm using as the basis, it is a comm base oscillator similar to this circuit.I change the design every 15 minutes to improve something but this is the basis for most of them.The transistor I prefer to use is a BFR96, but I do use other transistors. You can even try running this circuit with a 2N2222A.It works but you may find that you're having trouble breaking past 600MHz until you add some more bitsIf you really wanted to make the competition fun, you'd restrict everybody to BC548'sYou can even get 1GHz out of them if you're clever.

author: 0culus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2020, 03:31:15 am
content: Interesting thread, this. I was looking through my components and I came across some 2SC5227A epitaxial planar silicon transistors I guess came with a kit I had bought. They are mounted on a tiny PCB with standard header "legs" for breadboarding. Wonder what one could accomplish with these? Info seems to be rather scarce though....not even any suggested applications in the datasheets.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2020, 04:11:23 am
content: Quote from: 0culus on June 14, 2020, 03:31:15 amI don't see why you couldn't use it. If you have a way to test it, I would give it a try.

author: 0culus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2020, 04:14:48 am
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on June 14, 2020, 04:11:23 amMy fastest scope is 1 GHz, but I do have an 8566B spectrum analyzer available. I'll brainstorm a bit and see if I can't come up with something.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2020, 04:36:47 am
content: Your scope and especially your SA would work fine. Can you use your SA to downconvert the signal for the scope?

author: 0culus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2020, 05:24:46 am
content: Yeah, it has a standard 21.4 MHz IF out. I'm "warming up" by playing with Colpitts oscillators on the breadboard tonight. So far, with a 2N2222 and absolutely zero lead trimming I have achieved 19.5 MHz. Paltry, of course, compared to what you guys have been achieving but still faster than anything I've ever breadboarded. Is Manhattan style construction allowed?

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2020, 11:47:02 am
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on June 13, 2020, 08:06:08 pmAnd raise you 10 !Still, from what I've read you might have a worthy challenger for the title intrash.

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2020, 12:56:00 pm
content: Seeing as I can't compete in theunlimitedclass, how about an entry for the vacuum tube class?B+ supply 106.7V, from a DC-DC module; heater 6.0V (the power resistors are just to take up the slack, the bench supply is running about 10V). Tube is 5702, a subminiature version of 6AK5, an RF pentode. Ideal for breadboarding!Running a good 233MHz, with harmonics apparent:(This is a plot from my 8590A spectrum analyzer, and I don't know why the text is so badly placed. Axis is 100 to 800MHz, detector is peak, amplitude is 10dB/div, 0dBm ref (top axis).)There's also a 20dB attenuator in line, between the pickup link and transmission line. So that's about 9dBm real power.The tube is wired thus (pins from right to left):A: B+G2: B+H2: GNDH1: 6VG3: GNDK: 4.7uH + 220R to GNDG1: 3.5 inch jumper ('U' shaped) to GNDA 22nF film cap bypasses B+ to GND. A short jumper ties G2 to A. A slightly taller jumper ties G3 to H2.Another single turn jumper, in a BNC-binding post adapter, couples to the G1 link and goes off to the spectrum analyzer.The circuit is completed by the ~4pF between adjacent positions, making this a common-anode Colpitts oscillator.With over 9dBm of output power (and probably a lot more with a little tuning and stronger coupling), it seems to qualify for the purposes of this thread.The self-resonant frequency of this tube is ca. 400MHz. It's not a hard cutoff; some amplification can still be possible up there. It's just very awkward to make use of, and might not even be usable as an oscillator. More compact types are preferred -- Nuvistors and planar types in particular.This is a good point to mention some vacuum tube physics -- which is not necessarily poorly known (and not just because tubes aren't well known today), or unexpected; more that it's the kind of thing that, if it never crosses your mind, you'd never know, but if you see it and think about it, it'll become obvious what's going on.At these frequencies, the mass of the electron cloud itself is substantial; the grid input impedance will be around 200 ohms || 9pF I think. (That may not seem like much compared to a BJT or MOSFET, but for a device that's normally comfortable with 10s of kohms around it, that's quite low!)Mass by itself is conservative, so manifests as increased grid capacitance -- when cold, the capacitance of the grid to surrounding electrodes is only about 5pF, but when the cathode is hot, an additional ~3pF appears, and a little more when hot and biased on. These are due to the space charge and electron beam!The resistance? Literally, work done on the electron beam. This power modulates the beam's intensity and velocity. And since the beam also carries space charge, the modulation is sensible on subsequent electrodes -- screen, suppressor and plate!When the modulation reaches the plate, the beam intensity of course is received as plate (DC and signal) current. The velocity modulation smears it out, effectively reducing AC (signal) plate current at very high frequencies. Very fast tubes use incredibly close cathode-grid-plate spacing for this reason.This works even when the electrode is not drawing beam current. That is, there is a nonzero transadmittance y_g1g2, y_g1g3 and so forth. This is anonreciprocaleffect, too -- that is, y_g1g3 >> y_g3g1.Reciprocity is a big deal, thermodynamically speaking. It generally means there's an energy input to the system. There may not necessarily be actual power gain, but the resulting isolation is still very unusual otherwise. In this case, of course, the heater is hot, and plate current is flowing, so there is ample input to the system. (Indeed, the cathode itself is a heat engine: electron emission is spontaneous even at 0V bias, thus net electrical power is generated. The efficiency is of course laughably pitiful, yielding microwatts or less for ~watts of heater power.)In this circuit, g2 is bypassed to ground, and g3 has a useless cross section (it really is just a suppressor, or at best has a few uS of transconductance to the plate, and even less coming from g1), so there isn't any good illustration of these effects with this tube type. It does however make things interesting for types with significant grid transconductance: dual-control pentodes, gated sheet beam tubes and pentagrid converters!Tim

author: BreakingOhmsLaw
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2020, 02:34:43 pm
content: Updated record to 13,11 GHz.@joe: sorry for late update. job kept me busy.Kudos to T3sl4co1l for bringing a tube to the fight!

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2020, 02:35:48 pm
content: Lovely! Tim, I'll give you 10 vintage bonus points!BTW, when you reach the microwave range you could add a traveling-wave tube for more output power.

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2020, 02:39:37 pm
content: Alas, about all I have among the fancier types are a klystron or two, neither of which is very amenable to breadboarding!Aside from the de facto easy answer of the 2.45GHz tube in my (and everyone else's) kitchen...Tim

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2020, 03:59:21 pm
content: Wow, a tube!! This is the first time I have ever seen one installed in a breadboard. I own an old Millen 90651 grid-dip meter that can run up to 300MHz. Looking at the schematic, they used a 9002.http://www.r-type.org/pdfs/9002.pdfI watch glasslinger on YT where he's made a few tubes from scratch which I find very interesting. This one is an X-ray tube:

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2020, 04:21:33 pm
content: Quote from: 0culus on June 14, 2020, 05:24:46 amI think most of mine move around more than 22MHz. Maybe yours will be more stable. If not, I had a look at the manual for your 8566. It appears you may have access to the first LO on the front of the instrument as well and it has +5dBm drive. Appendix H talks about it.https://www.eevblog.com/forum/index.php?action=post;quote=3095892;topic=243355.100You may be able use this as the LO for an external mixer that could directly drive your scope. Guessing it would be a lot more stable than the open looped YIG I show. With your GHz scope, you may be able to see something over 7GHz.***Some advice, make sure you show the signal on the SA as well or it may confuse Trash into thinking you are using it for your oscillator..

author: tim_
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2020, 06:30:00 pm
content: It was suggested to me that I join this competition with a ring-oscillator based contraption of mine, which I quickly reproduced on a breadboard.So, let's have a look at my entry:As you can maybe make out, it is a three stage ring oscillator based on 2N3904 (chinese off-brand) and 390 Ohm load resistors. As a specialty, the output of each inverter (collector) is connected to the input of the next inverter (base) with an LED. So what can it do?When we apply 10V of bias to it, the LEDs will light up and it oscillates at a frequency of 35 MHz. As you can see, this design also follows the rule of a full 5V swing. The frequency suggests a tpd of 4.8 ns for each inverter, which is already "interesting", if you look up the storage time of a 2N3904 in the datasheet. Btw, with red LEDs this goes up to 55MHz, corresponding to 3ns. The same design is much faster on a PCB, so the parasitics of the breadboard take their toll.Ok, but maybe that is not the most interesting part of this oscillator. Let's have a look at some X-Y plots where X is the input of one inverter and Y is at the output:At 10V we see a somewhat circular output, which suggests that the phase delay of this inverter is constant - as expected for a proper oscillator. However at 11.8 V we can suddenly see a convoluted path that almost looks random, but is clearly repeating - a limit cycle? Changing voltages further can transition from noise to different structured trajectory.It looks like this simple circuit is acting as a chaotic oscillator. I though that was quite neat. You can find a longer write up here:https://hackaday.io/project/170697-evaluating-transistors-for-bipolar-logic-rtl/log/179154-using-a-led-as-base-resistor-chaotic-ring-oscillator.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2020, 07:05:47 pm
content: Quote from: tim_ on June 14, 2020, 06:30:00 pmInteresting contraption! - is it light sensitive? - it might behave differently depending on if it's in the light or dark, or if the different LEDs can "see" each other or not....

author: 0culus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2020, 07:20:00 pm
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on June 14, 2020, 04:21:33 pmMy first attempt with the 5GHz transistor substituting for a 2N2222 was an abject fail. Absolutely nothing came out. No magic smoke though, so hopefully I didn't blow it up.I'm going to have to go back to the drawing board for this one. Attached is a plot from the 8566B with my original 2N2222 Colpitts oscillator circuit (taken with a near field probe, so the level is lower than it would be otherwise; there's a healthy DC voltage on the output which I didn't want to do anything foolish with even though I keep an 18GHz bandpass dc block on the input of the 8566B). However, it's build doesnotmeet the rules (I had to cram a couple of leads in one hole to make it the loop size smaller) so I am *not* submitting this. I'm still quite pleased with it as a first effort though! I didn't trim any leads, either.

author: tim_
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2020, 07:40:23 pm
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on June 14, 2020, 07:05:47 pmI checked the light sensitivity with the red-LEDed version. There was a very small impact on frequency with strong illumination, but not sufficient to change trajectory.In any case, that is what I would expect, as the circuit uses currents in the tens of mA while the photocurrent induced in a LED is in the range on nA or even lower.Maybe if you take a laser...

author: 0culus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2020, 08:59:52 pm
content: OK, stepping back from that failure, I instead redid my 2N2222 colpitts oscillator in a way that (I believe) is much closer to conforming with the challenge rules within the confines of what I have on hand. I was able to get more output and slightly better performance after snipping leads and playing with the layout. I can experiment with different inductors now to change the oscillation frequency.Measurement conditions: again, spectrum analyzer measurements are done with a near field probe (pictured). I do not wish to take unnecessary risk feeding a big DC signal into my 8566B, as stated before. Oscilloscope measurement was done using a P6201 FET probe with 10x attenuator (bare tip, no hook) and a very short ground wire connected to my 7104 with 2x7A29 + 7B15 and 7B10 plugins. I found that passive probes detuned the circuit considerably.Lessons learned: this is a lot of fun, and I look forward to continuing to make faster breadboard designs.Also, passive probes are actually fairly poor performing. The beauty of breadboards is it's super easy to make changes, so attempting to exploit the well known problems of breadboards is a neat challenge. Additionally, bypass caps on the power supply line are required. Without them, it doesn't work very well at all I found.

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2020, 01:33:48 am
content: Quote from: tim_ on June 14, 2020, 06:30:00 pmTry a B-E resistor, say 470 or so. Maybe a little ESR for the LEDs as well.Chaos is interesting; likely it's a combination of rectification by the LEDs, and variable time constant due to the lack of B-E discharge. Lots of nonlinearity around.Tim

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2020, 04:30:52 am
content: Updating the screenshot -- much clearer. Circuit changed slightly, with a shorter jumper, hence the higher frequency (and coupling kinda sucks, hence the lower power).Tim

author: tim_
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2020, 07:47:44 am
content: Quote from: T3sl4co1l on June 15, 2020, 01:33:48 amWell, actually the capacitance of the LEDs help to push the base to a low potential which helps discharching. That's why the circuit is much faster than one would expect. I have some spice-simulations on the page I linked above.Regarding the origin of the chaos: I have to agree, it seems to be related to the relationship between delay and different levels of base charging. The behavior can be reproduced in spice, but only when using proper transistors models. E.g. the build in once from LTspice don't work, but Nexperias models do. Haven't looked in to the details yet.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2020, 06:03:44 pm
content: Quote from: 0culus on June 14, 2020, 08:59:52 pmQuoteEarly on I asked when a wire was no longer considered a wire but a part. I've continue to expand and exploit the OPs allowance with a single continuous wire attaching between an SMT device and the breadboard.Also shown is the tuning network which is a hairlike wire hanging out in the free space. Pretty much my oscillator is nothing more than the transistor and some wire. You can see it setting a new record in the attached picture.There was no design for this oscillator. With all the parasitics, it would have taken me more time trying to model it and take a scientific approach than just taking a guess and playing with it. I'm not even sure how I would model it. Let's see, the human is standing on carpet and is extending their arm and fingers at these angles and they had three cups of coffee and an egg.......Digikey has some better parts in stock but I am beyond what I can display with the scope and closing in on the upper end of my counter.*****For fun, attached directly to the LeCroy 8500A. There's nothing that suggests the oscillator is running. Apparently 13.5GHz is just too much for the 5GHz DSO.****Also show using the downconverter with the Signal Hound. I asked them about adding support to their software to scale the graph when using mixers, but sadly they don't seem to see a use for it. So with the YIG still set to 8GHz, 13.5-8, we would expect to see something around 5.5GHz. I bypassed the downconverter's splitter to gain back that 6dB and it shows up, at -70dBm. Of course, the signal is going to be much higher as we are running the mixer way outside of its specified IF frequency.

author: 0culus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2020, 06:31:54 pm
content: Either way, it's still really nifty. How are you mounting the transistor itself to the breadboard? Examples of particular parts on digikey you have in mind?I did some experimenting last night using my 8672A as the RF source, and with a better quality mixer than the one I have now, I should be able to easily pick off the 8566B 1st LO and mix it down to something I can look at in time domain with my scope. Time to visit minicircuits I suppose. The mixer I have probably was not intended for having the LO frequency so high, so the IF difference freq that comes out is very weak indeed.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2020, 07:23:30 pm
content: I am still doing what I showed in that first video where I insert the copper wire into the breadboard, bend it 90 deg and cut it off. I then solder the transistor to the copper wire (while the wire is still inserted in the breadboard).Digi-key does a nice job with their search engine. They break it down to RF FETs and transistors. From there you can search for pretty much what ever you are looking for and in most cases, view the datasheet.You may be able to find a used mixer on eBay but IMO, Mini-circuits is the way to go. Used is always a gamble and mini-circuits has a wide selection in-stock and very reasonable price.

author: BreakingOhmsLaw
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2020, 08:42:14 pm
content: Record updated to 13.511GHz.I second going with minicircuits. I used to order their stuff by the palet back in the days when I built test equipment for satnavs. Just works like a charm right out of the box and the performance is great for the price.

author: ogden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2020, 08:58:59 pm
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on June 15, 2020, 06:03:44 pmYour achievements indeed are remarkable but as you say - you are using *exploits*. Wire-wrap and soldering breaks whole purpose of the breadboard. In your case breadbord becomes just holder, not part of the circuit. I would add strict rule thatbreadboard shall be part of every interconnect between components. You may manufacture inductor out of wire, but to connect it to the transistor - use breadboard, not wire-wrap or soldering.

author: 0culus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2020, 09:13:40 pm
content: But isn't microwave above a certain frequency pretty much all about exploiting parasitics instead of fighting them? I definitely think allowing soldering is fair to allow parts that are probably only available as SMD to be used. Beyond that, it becomes more questionable. Might as well build the circuit Manhattan style at that point, and get the benefits of air construction and a massive ground plane.

author: ogden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2020, 09:20:15 pm
content: Quote from: 0culus on June 15, 2020, 09:13:40 pmYes - when your microwave circuit is built on top of the breadboard. Otherwise - no.

author: 0culus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2020, 09:23:05 pm
content: I don't know, it seems to me like the rules that have been hashed out already are fair, and the OP seems fine with Mr. Smith's new record....but I admit I am a red teamer at heart and I enjoy finding creative ways to bend the rules.

author: ogden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2020, 09:28:26 pm
content: Quote from: 0culus on June 15, 2020, 09:23:05 pmContest is as good as it's rules. Here we see that one can build microwave circuit "in the air" using breadboard as a support. To me it does not look like breadboard oscillator, sorry. My advise here would be: split into two categories. 1) free for all bend everything you can 2) every interconnect through breadboard - as it is supposed to be.

author: tim_
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2020, 09:38:36 pm
content: How about also distinguishing between large- and small signal oscillators? The original rules actually asked for a full 5V swing. (Not that I am biased here, who beats 55 MHz fully saturated swing?)Edit: I double checked. It asks for a 5V Vpp sine. That does not make too much sense, to be honest. Either it's digital and large signal or analog and you should define SNR.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2020, 10:13:14 pm
content: Quote from: ogden on June 15, 2020, 08:58:59 pmIf you had taken the time to read the rules and posts, you would find that I brought up this technique very early on and it was approved. This means that everyone, including yourself are free to exploit this technique. You are also free to try and exploit other rules as well. I'm not going to suck my thumb over it.Thinking that the breadboard or for that matter, pretty much anything else in close proximity to this oscillator has no effect is just being ignorant. Of course the breadboard IS part of the circuit!It's all just for fun anyway. So rather than concern yourself with what I have done, show us these skills of yours.

author: 0culus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2020, 03:47:46 am
content: Quote from: 0culus on June 14, 2020, 08:59:52 pmUpdate: I got some 2N2222As today, and I am now wondering if the ones I had are counterfeit or something. One of the new ones has considerably more gain and runs at higher frequency without touching anything else. Anyway, I'm done with that. It was a fun exercise. I'm going to look at getting some fast RF transistors and also some RF plumbing from minicircuits to support higher speed experiments.

author: ogden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2020, 05:19:46 am
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on June 15, 2020, 10:13:14 pmYes you bragged about that. By tricking organizer into accepting component interconnects outside breadboard, you spoiled whole thing. Many kids around the world are crying now because of you who came with microwave magic into kindergarden competition

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2020, 06:16:49 am
content: Quote from: ogden on June 16, 2020, 05:19:46 amWhen I wrote ", show us these skills of yours. " I was actually suggesting you finally contribute something of technical merit rather than your usual trolling skills.I'm not sure if the OP felt tricked by my questions or not. They would need to chime in. While I thought I was clear with what I was asking, to the point of using pictures of examples, I'm certainly not apposed to having them roll back the rules if they choose.Strange you would feel that the members here are all at a kindergarten level. I would have guessed the majority of the technical contributors were well educated and that most understand what parasitics are, as well as what typical means on a datasheet.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2020, 06:28:06 am
content: Quote from: 0culus on June 16, 2020, 03:47:46 amI have a few different parts coming myself. Maybe get that old microwave counter to overflow.You have your work cut out for you to get that SA of yours to max out.

author: 0culus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2020, 02:25:14 pm
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on June 16, 2020, 06:16:49 amSomeone posted a picture of the 500 MHz multiplier from a Tek 184 above. L70 and L69 aren't too terribly different from what you're doing with your design. The components do not have to actually touch each other to interact in meaningful ways!Quote from: joeqsmith on June 16, 2020, 06:28:06 amYeah, it should be an interesting challenge with 22 GHz to work with (on internal mixing!). What's the limit on your counter? I also have a 20 GHz counter (5350B).

author: ogden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2020, 03:39:32 pm
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on June 16, 2020, 06:16:49 amAre you serious? I did not mean that. It wasjoke. Notice smiley as well.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2020, 04:42:02 pm
content: Quote from: 0culus on June 16, 2020, 02:25:14 pmWhen I was very young I owned a Heathkit DX100 which didn't work. When I took it apart, there was a wire hanging in the air near the output stage which spiked my curiosity. Many decades later, I am still playing with wire in RF circuits.Quote from: joeqsmith on June 16, 2020, 06:28:06 amYeah, it should be an interesting challenge with 22 GHz to work with (on internal mixing!). What's the limit on your counter? I also have a 20 GHz counter (5350B).My counter has no options and can only read up to 18GHz. GPIB would have been nice to autotune the YIG. It's a long way off from your SA. You can at least see what's going on vs guessing like I am.I like that little signal hound for the most part. Their software interface is alright. When I demo'ed it decoding that cheap Extech meter, I was surprised that their software was missing some key features that would have helped. It's like this lack of support for external mixing. Simple enough of a change but they would need to see some value in it before it would get added. I'm not a fan of USB on test equipment but have not ran into too many problems with it. It also has no way to power it off so I have to turn off a bus strip which powers the hub that feeds it.

author: 0culus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2020, 07:25:57 pm
content: Shahriar just did a review of their newest one that has 10Gb ethernet instead of USB and it can stream a full 160MHz IQ unlike the USB models. Pretty slick device, and crazy realtime analysis capability. I was surprised the list price was under $20k, actually. I suspect the largest market is probably TSCM, due to the portability and ease of running off a battery.But yes, being able to use mixers externally by breaking out the 1st LO is mighty nice. The 8566B also has the IF broken out (and jumped by default with a piece of hardline coax). It can be used both with plain external mixers as well as a line of preselected mixers (which still cost big bux if they are working) up to 110 GHz from-hp-themselves and up to 325 GHz with mixers from third parties (I don't even want to ask how much for those).

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2020, 08:18:07 pm
content: I saw where he had posted that review but I have not watched it. 20K would be a bit much for my hobbybut it would be fun to see if LabView could keep up with it. It's no problem with the BB60C but that's far less data. The BB60C doesn't provide access to the LO and would require an external oscillator and mixer.I can't think of a time I have wanted to experiment >> 110GHz. I cringe just thinking about connectors and cable costs.Most of my fun is below 1G where the cost are not too bad and get away with home made bits. I've been wanting to play around above 2GHz for some time and finally picked up another old VNA to replace my old 1970s system. The old VNA could run up to 2.6GHz but data was always questionable.

author: 0culus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2020, 08:19:57 pm
content: When the coaxial connectors start to cost $1k or more apiece (1mm connectors), it's too rich for me. I'd like to work up to 40-50GHz eventually but that's it.

author: BreakingOhmsLaw
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 17, 2020, 12:15:59 pm
content: OP here, calm down guys, it's all fun and games.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 17, 2020, 01:17:31 pm
content: Quote from: 0culus on June 16, 2020, 08:19:57 pmYou know, DC has a lot going for it!

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 17, 2020, 05:25:01 pm
content: For my next oscillator, I would like to use Kapton for the two capacitors. The one around the coax is more just for safety in case the magnet wire chips and shorts. I don't want DC getting into the equipment.Also shown is a small chip of Ferrite from a broken core. I played with it off and on but have yet to use it. Its interesting to just move it near the parts and see the effects.There are two longer wires that supply a sort of reference for the transistor. There is another long wire that lays over the top of them. Once the new parts arrive, the plan is to cut out a section of this wire to form a gap and solder the transistor to the two remaining legs, one per lead.Quote from: BreakingOhmsLaw on June 17, 2020, 12:15:59 pmThey were just upset over another thread. I've never seen them post anything technical and doubt very much you will see an entry unless you allow them to use their 555 timer IC.Quote from: 0culus on June 16, 2020, 08:19:57 pmI don't know any hobbyist that could afford $1000 connectors, let alone the equipment that uses them. What are you wanting to do up at those frequencies? There may be some interesting physics experiments you could run.****Added pictures of trimmer. Stub will ride in the notch.****Checking out the latest oscillator using an old transistor.

author: SiliconToaster
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: June 17, 2020, 06:40:00 pm
content: How fast can a 2N3904 go?Here it is, a 2N3904 in a "colpits" oscillator running at over 460MHz.Not too bad for a transistor with a 300Mhz transition frequency.The schematic is really simple, the BJT is biased in a common base configuration and it relies on the breadboard parasitics to get into oscillation.As you can see the signal is coupled into the oscilloscope probe via the breadboard capacitance, a direct connection is too much load for the circuit.For a moment I was able to get it running at 505MHz, I think that's the limit for the 2N3904. Next step is to get a better transistor.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 17, 2020, 08:00:56 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconToaster on June 17, 2020, 06:40:00 pmVery cool! - How does the oscillator actually work? I don't see a feedback path...

author: 0culus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2020, 02:10:41 am
content: Quote from: SiliconToaster on June 17, 2020, 06:40:00 pmNeat circuit. I tried reproducing it with a 2N2222A but so far have "only" achieved a 358 MHz fundamental. I need to play around with the inductor I think...I've been experimenting with winding my own with some very fine gauge wire I had on hand. I'll share some pics once I've worked with it.To segue into faster circuits, I found a couple of mixers on minicircuits that should work for my needs. I will soon order them and some high speed transistors.

author: 0culus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2020, 02:37:54 am
content: Quote from: 0culus on June 18, 2020, 02:10:41 amOK, so I made some modifications to your circuit. I added some extra bypass filtering on the power supply, and I substantially reduced the capacitors down to 4.7pF. I also turned the wick way up, and worked my way up to 25V, drawing about 33mA. I have achieved a very nice stability at about 444.3 MHz. I have a few other things in mind to try as well. Also FWIW, the 7104 trace is overexposed by the camera's sensitivity to the phosphor. It is *not* that bright in person!

author: 0culus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2020, 04:25:07 am
content: One more update to this modification of SiliconToaster's circuit tonight: I found a few 1 pF ceramic caps in my stuff. After much experimenting with adjusting the inductor and the cap, I happened upon this configuration. Turns out, trimming off the legs of the 1pF cap stops the circuit from oscillating. So I left it to stand tall and bask in the glory of parasitics.It is so sensitive now that I cannot even bring a near field probe near the circuit without completely detuning it. So I grabbed the spectrum analyzer data while carefully holding the probe a distance away.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2020, 04:41:05 am
content: This is starting to look pretty fast!I still don't get how the oscillator in the diagram oscillates without a feedback path. Is there a parasitic path somewhere that I'm missing?

author: 0culus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2020, 05:11:56 am
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on June 18, 2020, 04:41:05 amYes, i believe it is depending on parasitic capacitance from the breadboard to form the full tank circuit that sets the frequency.

author: SiliconToaster
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: June 18, 2020, 07:34:01 am
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on June 18, 2020, 04:41:05 amNo idea of where the feedback path is. As 0culus said, it's a combination of the breadboard and transistor parasitic capacitance.At these frequencies every wire becomes an inductor and every cap becomes a resonant circuit with it's own resonant frequency that varies with the length of it's legs.I tried to exploit the parasitics even more, so I took out the coil and replaced with three wire links in parallel to reduce the inductance.I also raised the voltage from 12V to 20V.Now it's running at 536MHz.

author: KE5FX
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2020, 09:00:21 am
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on June 18, 2020, 04:41:05 amMiller capacitance between base and collector would be my initial hand-wavy guess. I don't think it's the breadboard strays, but could be wrong.

author: herc
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2020, 01:20:50 pm
content: i just stumbled upon this paper talking about THz Oscillators:https://hangroup.mit.edu/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/IEEE_Filling_the_Gap_Published.pdfdid someone here experimented with spark gaps ? what would happen if i would put sparks onto a simple biquad-antenna, let's say for the 2.4 GHz ? how broad, how dirty would the spectrum be ?

author: mnementh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2020, 03:42:23 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconToaster on June 18, 2020, 07:34:01 amNow... now you're starting to get into the same realm ofBlack Magicas this thing:joe, OTOH... This is all like watching Master Po and young Kwai Chang Caine discussing discipline in the rock garden...mnemCarry on, please!

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2020, 06:26:49 pm
content: A package arrived today and it's time to get serious..The cheap mechanical trimmer is out. It would be very helpful to have but the breadboard needs to be mounted to a metal plate with a real stage mounted on the plate as well. It seems like it may fall into the realm of modifying the breadboard. Currently, this is a job for tweezers, very sharp dykes and the microscope.OP, can we use some sort of off board mechanical positioning system as I describe above? The breadboard would need to be hard bolted to the plate and the stage would be something like this but smaller:https://www.ebay.com/itm/Newport-562-LH-XYZ-Stage-ULTRAlign-with-13mm-travel-micrometers/293255578226?hash=item4447650272:g:fcsAAOSwt95dkpHwI have no plans now to use Ferrite, but if someone wanted to use it, would there be any special provisions? It seems like using a continuous wire to make an air coil is one thing but filling it with Ferrite may be another.Can we use the Kapton tape as an insulator as I have shown? There really isn't a performance gain, at least the way I intend to use it. It's really just for added protection. Like the Ferrite, it's now more than just some bent up wire. See attached post for detaileds pictures:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/challenge-thread-the-fastest-breadboard-oscillator-on-the-mudball/msg3098642/#msg3098642Quote from: mnementh on June 18, 2020, 03:42:23 pmPlaying with high speed parts is a lot of fun. You should join the fun.

author: BreakingOhmsLaw
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2020, 07:57:19 pm
content: @Joe:Breadboard: Fixing it is fine, just don't damage or modify it. It should be reversible to a pristine breadboard again.Kapton: Yes, all that's going to do is act as an dielectric in a ghetto capacitor, so that's covered by rules 5 & 8.Ferrite: Yes, Rule 5 & 8 again.Positioning jig: Absolutely, if that's what it takes. Not sure if a lump of metal near your circuit is going to give you trouble.@SiliconToaster:Great entry! I will update first post to reflect you as runner-up! Keep it up!

author: cj
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2020, 08:09:24 pm
content: This circuit won't break the record but has some 'black magic' to it.It has only two components a BFR91A transistor and 10k resistor.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2020, 08:14:39 pm
content: Quote from: cj on June 18, 2020, 08:09:24 pmThat's the old SA I used to have, except maybe the A version. Very nice! Also, welcome to the 1GHz+ club!!

author: BreakingOhmsLaw
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2020, 08:19:05 pm
content: Quote from: cj on June 18, 2020, 08:09:24 pmAnd two creafully selected and hand-tuned marker pins!

author: 0culus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2020, 08:30:55 pm
content: That was my first SA too...I got it for a song and the guy didn't pack it...like at all. Miraculously it survived shipping. Tough bastard.@joe, can't wait to see what you cook up! I'm going to order stuff soon.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2020, 08:35:17 pm
content: Quote from: BreakingOhmsLaw on June 18, 2020, 07:57:19 pmI've been soldering to the plugged in wires, melting the breadboard every so often. Then there was a lockup meltdown... Sadly this old breadboard will never be pristine again.Thanks for clearing up my questions.I plan to change over to using a small 3XAA battery pack. I worry that one swipe with Tim's tail (our dog) on the power leads will end it.Now if LeCroy would just send me a 40GHz scope.

author: cj
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2020, 09:22:11 pm
content: For who thinks the marker pins are part of the 'black magic' NOPE it works also without them.@joe : thanks for welcoming me to the 1GHz+ club.The 8569B is a nice but old SA and goes up to 22GHz.

author: ogden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2020, 10:16:08 pm
content: Quote from: cj on June 18, 2020, 09:22:11 pmIt shall be noted that your >1GHz breadboard oscillator fully follows rule #3. Congrats!

author: 0culus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2020, 03:15:15 am
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on June 18, 2020, 08:35:17 pmFortunately my cats have been (so far, knock on wood) leaving these experiments alone.I'd like a 40 Ghz scope too; I have plenty of monopoly dollars!Anyway, I was able to hit 660 MHz using the same circuit but a faster 1 GHz transistor I found in my box of toys, and adding a high tech "ferrite" (really the tip of a small screwdriver) to the inductor loop. I want to experiment further so I won't share until I've extracted every last MHz out of it.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2020, 04:25:28 am
content: I really figured the cat took that knob from my scope.She sleeps most of the time and doesn't cause much trouble.I'm in the same boat, wasn't born with a silver spoon and no one accepts my funny money.Maybe I could offer LeCroy exclusive advertisement.... Nah... that's sounding too much like work....I added an LED to the battery pack to try and remind be to turn it off. Also shown is the new oscillator on the right fitted with one of the new transistors. At least I can afford the parts.Between the two oscillators is my chip of ferrite. All sitting on the freq counter which is apart while I am trying to sort out how fast I can actually drive it.I see some gains with the ferrite but keeping things mechanically stable has been a problem. Too bad the Revlon clear didn't work.QuoteWith Trash and now CJ catching up fast, it's time for you to get some better parts. There's always room for more in the 1GHz+ club!

author: herc
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2020, 05:43:28 am
content: @cj: thats a crazy oscillator. if this transistor still oscillates, even though there is the breadboard capacitance all over the place, (and with that weird "shortcut" inductor / resonator /between collector and base), how can you ever built a non-oscillating amplifier with that thing ?!?

author: cj
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2020, 07:30:36 am
content: The circuit is basically a Pierce oscillator.The base and collector are shorted (DC) but for this transistor as with many others Vce_saturated < Vbe.With the 10k resistor the bias voltage is Vbe so the collector isn’t saturated yet and therefore the transistor works normally albeit at a low voltage.I’ve tested this circuit at 3V and works fine. At this voltage the total power dissipation is about 0.7mW and the generated RF power is a small fraction of that.If you want to build a non-oscillating amplifier with these types of transistors don’t use a breadboard.

author: TheUnnamedNewbie
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2020, 09:43:20 am
content: I've been thinking if you could use a gunn diode and use the walls of two slots in the breadboard like a waveguide. Add a short a bit further back between the two same walls to make your resonant section of waveguide. Point horn antenna at it to measure frequency.

author: mnementh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2020, 05:34:18 pm
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on June 18, 2020, 06:26:49 pmEhhhh... I never was a very good engineer, even when I was paid to do it; too weak in the theoretical part and too strong in the hands-on part. Too much cannabis in the off-hours trying to keep my sanity in 1980s-90s corporate borgland deleted the rest to make room for Star Trek and Farscape episodes.My idea of high-frequency gear nowadays is this... I'm more than content to be a spectator (and occasional commentary) here.mnem

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2020, 05:43:29 pm
content: Quote from: BreakingOhmsLaw on May 29, 2020, 07:14:36 amShield for the new oscillator. For now, it makes a fit contact with the coax. I would like to add some pins and plug it into the breadboard. However, if I do this, I would stake it at the reference points only. It does help with the outside parasitics. Things like XYZ stages may have less effect.....The small part is a detector. I can tell that the oscillator is running but that's about it.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2020, 05:48:42 pm
content: Quote from: mnementh on June 19, 2020, 05:34:18 pmLooks like my 189.

author: PA0PBZ
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2020, 06:11:43 pm
content: Here's my try at a minimalistic setup. It took a while because I had to repair the counter first. I don't think it can go any higher without breaking the rule that every connection has to be made via the breadboard. (excluding the SMA, they don't fit well in the breadboard...) So 1 active element and 1 resistor, and if you want to be precise one cap to couple the signal to the counter. The tuned parts are all 'embedded' in the breadboard, that's why I doubt I can get it any higher. I'm sure the power is not there, it runs on 2V 2mAAnd yes, the breadboard will never be the same

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2020, 06:26:58 pm
content: Quote from: PA0PBZ on June 19, 2020, 06:11:43 pmCongratulations and welcome to the 1GHz club! You're very close to joining the 5GHz club. That ones a bit more exclusive.If you have a way to check the upper frequency limit of your counter and what options it has, could you please post them. I suspect that mine with no options will start to fold back around 21GHz. In other words, it seems like as the frequency is increased, the displayed value will decrease. But I don't have a good way to prove it.

author: PA0PBZ
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2020, 06:34:35 pm
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on June 19, 2020, 06:26:58 pmIt doesn't have the power meter, nothing happens when I press the button and the box that supposed to sit behind the N connector entry is not there. I'm not sure about the 24 GHz option, but since the front panel says 18 GHz..? If you send me one of your breadboard oscillators I can tryAre there any other options I'm not aware of?

author: mnementh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2020, 06:43:07 pm
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on June 19, 2020, 05:48:42 pmGood eye.I had to pare my bench back to just the essentials when I came to the Great White North; everything here either fit in one technician's toolbox or was built/acquired after I arrived. There's a 6022BE bought almost a year ago "to get me by" when I need to do more than count the angry pixies; I keep looking wistfully through the pages of Kijiji & FleaBay for a real wigglescope but no joy at any price I can justify.mnem

author: 0culus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2020, 07:36:47 pm
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on June 19, 2020, 05:43:29 pmSend it to me and I'll throw it on the 8566BWhere do you purchase copper mesh to make shielding? I would like to get some for a variety of reasons.I still have those 5GHz transistors so I will probably do some more experimenting this weekend while I wait for stuff to come.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2020, 09:08:32 pm
content: Quote from: 0culus on June 19, 2020, 07:36:47 pmIt's a sad day when you find your beloved equipment can't even look at a 50 cent circuit.I may have to take you up on your offer to test it. If only LeCroy would send me an old sampling scope...I get most of my mechanical parts from McMaster.https://www.mcmaster.com/meshNow that PA0PBZ is nearing 5GHz, you need to start thinking about some 6HGz.That, and you know all those people with their 10GHz labs we heard of early on are working on taking the lead.

author: temperance
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2020, 09:41:15 pm
content: For those who don't own a fast oscilloscope:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lecher_lineAn more practical example:https://hackaday.com/2017/02/07/using-a-lecher-line-to-measure-high-frequency/There are some Gunn diodes available on Ebay...

author: 0culus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2020, 09:49:34 pm
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on June 19, 2020, 09:08:32 pmthanks for the tip on McMaster.I just need to order a few things from digikey and minicircuits and I can shoot for beyond 10 GHz. I have my carts ready, but not much point in ordering till Sunday at this point in the week.

author: BreakingOhmsLaw
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2020, 11:45:50 pm
content: I am guessing that cj's and PA0PBZ's entrys are variant of the Armstrong/Meissner oscillators running purely on parasitics.For educational purposes, heres one i made. It runs at a measly 2,6MHz - DC really - but here you can see the magnetic coupling of the inductors. It's two coils wound on a small ferite toroid.See:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armstrong_oscillatorThe capacitor is omitted in my board, the breadboard measures at 1.5pF between rows.The real laugh here is that it runs on a voltage as low as 0,765 Volts, and yet outputs nearly 4,6V peak to peak. Black magic! It's really stable as well, hardly any jitter.Looking at the board, one cannot help to think how the f**k this even oscillatesTranny is a BF256B FET.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2020, 02:10:56 am
content: Taking the new oscillator for a test drive and blowing the old record out of the water and it's only in first gear idling...****Added a scope shot to make it official.

author: 0culus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2020, 02:21:22 am
content: Daaaang. Nicely done. And here I am trying and failing once again to get this stupid 2SC5227 to do anything. Wonder if I killed it.I have two more...

author: 0culus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2020, 03:04:18 am
content: I got it alive by replicating the circuits I've been playing with already (colpitts), but it's not much faster than what I was doing before (reached 693 MHz). I need to really tweak the inductor, or better yet, find a way to eliminate it and use the parasitics.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2020, 03:29:15 am
content: What's the benefit/purpose of the copper mesh "cage" around the oscillator? Wouldn't that just create extra capacitance and lower the frequency? (RF n00b asks)

author: 0culus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2020, 03:40:21 am
content: Rules clarification: if I manage to get the (erstwhile) second harmonic larger than the (erstwhile) fundamental, can I claim success under the clause "distorting and leeching harmonics"? If so, I finally got something out of the 2SC5227. It's rather unstable and the waveform isn't pretty.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2020, 03:43:29 am
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on June 20, 2020, 03:29:15 amIf you watched that early video, I had the Signal Hound monitoring the peak while waving my hand a couple of feet away from it. The shield helps reduce the sensitivity to changes in the parasitics.The problem with this particular oscillator is not making it go faster but how to tell how fast it's going.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2020, 04:40:30 am
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on June 20, 2020, 03:43:29 amIs it possible to beat against another oscillator nearby and pick the difference signal up with the instruments that have run out of breath?

author: ogden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2020, 05:37:36 am
content: Quote from: 0culus on June 20, 2020, 03:40:21 amWe (again) are approaching dangerous rule bending territory. Planning to use U9391C or alike in this contest?First you would want to demonstrate spectrogram that includes everything - from DC up-to harmonic of interest so we can see that fundamental indeed is heavily supressed. I would say that if your frequency counter shows harmonic freq instead of fundamental, then it is fair entry.

author: 0culus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2020, 06:35:41 am
content: Dude, will you chill out with all the "dangerous rule bending" crap? This is for fun, no one is playing for money here. Why would I blatantly cheat by using an IC, anyway.If I was going to do that I could just hook up a microwave sig gen and blow away everyone.I'm experimenting with different inductor configurations and I happened upon one that made the second harmonic take over by a few dB. All I want is clarification from the OP about how many dB down the the old fundamental ought to be in this situation...

author: BreakingOhmsLaw
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2020, 06:47:52 am
content: Quote from: 0culus on June 20, 2020, 03:40:21 amAs ogden pointed out, the counter will need to count the harmonic. You will probably need more than 3dB suppression of the fundamental for that to happen.Bear in mind, with 1.5pF breadboard parasitics, you would need single digit resistance for a 10GHz RC high pass filter.But i am ready to be proven wrong by voodoo engineering any time! :-D

author: BreakingOhmsLaw
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2020, 06:51:22 am
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on June 20, 2020, 02:10:56 amIs that the new LeCardboyrd scope? Niiiiiice! Looking forward to a full review in TEA.

author: ogden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2020, 07:08:53 am
content: Quote from: 0culus on June 20, 2020, 06:35:41 amWhateverDude cool down yourself. I am stirring the pot, for entertainment purposes. Please don't call it Breadboard Oscillator especially when winning entries do not follow rule #3, part "All electrical connections between individual parts must be made by the breadboard contacts".QuoteUsually main part of Comb Generator is just diode. Thou needs powerful signal. Anyway I was kidding. Noticed smiley that looks like:? It means: "laugh". Comprehend?QuoteGood! As I said - would be nice to show fundamental together with harmonic, preferably using two markers, if any.

author: 0culus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2020, 07:19:02 am
content: Quote from: BreakingOhmsLaw on June 20, 2020, 06:47:52 amFair enough. My sleep deprived brain came up with this monstrosity.The fundamental and second harmonic are essentially equal, but sadly the second harmonic is already getting pretty far outside the 7104 (and FET probe's) passband so I can't see what it looks like in time domain with my current tools. Basically, it's the same Colpitts oscillator except with the 2SC5227 transistor (which had already been helpfully mounted in a tiny PCB with legs for breadboarding) and this train of inductors that aren't directly in the circuit but are modifying the parasitics.

author: 0culus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2020, 07:21:11 am
content: Quote from: ogden on June 20, 2020, 07:08:53 amIf you're stirring the pot, it may be coming across as more combative than you are intending it to.I don't know if it's the language barrier, but since you had to explain it you might want to be more careful.Anyway, let's see your efforts. Otherwise you're just the peanut gallery.

author: 0culus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2020, 07:25:13 am
content: I'm going to order some much faster parts from digikey this weekend anyway. I'm not going to bother trying to desolder these.

author: 0culus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2020, 08:14:08 am
content: Quote from: ogden on June 20, 2020, 07:43:48 amLOL.> claims to be kidding because emoticons> wants to have it both ways and be insulted by mineI’m not the first person to call you out on how you’re acting in this thread. If you can’t handle being called out and having it dished back at you, that’s not my problem and I have little sympathy. No one asked you to be the self appointed breadboard oscillator rules cop. The OP is doing a fine job of arbitration so please leave it to him.

author: BreakingOhmsLaw
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2020, 08:35:39 am
content: Keep me out of this, and perhaps you should make an entry yourself for the others to scrutinize.

author: BreakingOhmsLaw
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2020, 08:47:04 am
content: Quote from: ogden on June 20, 2020, 07:43:48 amHighly encouraged to post it anyway. This competition is for fun and educational purposes.And to disprove the false legend that "breadboards can't go over 10MHz".I don't have access to anything over 1GHz myself, so I will be contributing some related stuff now and then like i did yesterday.Cheers.

author: trash
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2020, 08:51:34 am
content: Wow, Bitchin !I've been away for a week and Joe is up at 16Ghz and the 2GHz version is still sitting on my work bench.I like the shield, I hadn't thought of doing that.I've got some new ideas I want to try with a completely different circuit tonight.I'm back at work again for another week so I only have tonight for some development.It looks like there is a lot more interest in the competition now and people have realised how easy it is to break the 1GHz barrier even on a breadboard.

author: trash
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2020, 09:04:32 am
content: Quote from: BreakingOhmsLaw on June 20, 2020, 08:47:04 amI would not stress about not having any gear over 1GHz. It's just as easy to test your oscillators and do it REALLY cheap.The first thing you probably already have. A USB TV dongle. Run some SDR software and you have a spectrum analyser that is good up to almost 2GHz. For only $20 !The next thing to do is get your hands on some downconverters. Again, you probably already have these things.The first is a satellite TV receiver. They're good to 2GHz. The IF stages also make good spectrum analysers on their own.Those old MMDS antennas. The downconverters on them have a local oscillator of 1950MHz. They will give you access up to 3GHz, especially if you remove any front end filtering.Next is a C Band satellite LNC. They're good for 3GHz to 4.5GHz. Again, if you have an older on you don't mind removing the front end filtering, you can push them out to 5GHz.Next is 10GHz. If you have an old automatic door motion detector, a radar detector, or a burgular alarm microwave motion detector.That will give you access to ~9-11GHz.Ku Band LNC's, they're give you access to 9-13GHz and you can modify them well out to 15GHz. I've got an old Plessey 2.2dB NF LNC that I pushed out past 15GHz. (trying to get to 24GHz).K Band Radar detector will give you 24GHz and some of the images. 24GHz gunn modules, you can mix them down and run them on your CRO or SDR.And even then, you can still go dumb as a box of hammers simple diode wavemeter.Two wires in parallel with a diode on the end connected to your CRO with a slow sweep looking for tiny changes in DC.Connect the signal source to the diode and short the two wires. Move the short up and down the wires and look for nulls and peaks.Measure the intervals which will be half wavelength. That's what we used to do in the days before rectum paralysers became dirt cheap.

author: trash
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2020, 10:44:07 am
content: Looks like I've reached the end of the line tonight.Doubling the output of the 2GHz oscillator to give 4GHz should have been a walk in the park. But I was getting nothing.I couldn't work out what was going on. So I fired up the sig gen and nothing out of the doubler either. So I thought the doubler was broken and I rebuilt it. And still nothing. Eventually I went and got a C band signal source and nothing on the spec-an either.Ah shit... looks like the >2GHz section in my spectrum analyser has stopped work so I've been stuck at 2GHz not realising that the comb generator I built was probably cranking out harmonics at 10GHz last week. Doh !So I had to change to take some of my own advice and fire up the X band mixer to see if anything was happening at 10GHz.Sure enough there was a carrier there. So tonight I thought I'd go back to the simplest circuit and see if I could make it work.A negative resistance diode (Tunnel diode) set up on a skeleton waveguide and woohoo ... the dirtiest signal I've seen at 10.7GHz.It's completely useless as any kind of oscillator it's that bad. But it is enough to claw back some of my dignity for now.So it looks like I'm out for the time being. I'm going to have to now find some time to repair the spec-an.

author: mnementh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2020, 11:28:51 am
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on June 20, 2020, 02:10:56 amWhat an adorable little Faraday cage! Just the right size for a Lego guy and his cellphone!No, seriously... righteous sqwawk, man.Quote from: 0culus on June 20, 2020, 07:21:11 am*tosses peanuts at Oculus and shells at ogden*Go sine wave! rah, rah, rah!mnem*Impairing SNR since nineteen-mumblety-mumble*

author: 0culus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2020, 03:08:54 pm
content: Quote from: BreakingOhmsLaw on June 20, 2020, 08:35:39 amI did? I even posted photos and spec an screen grabs. ogden is right, of course. That stupid pcb the transistor is mounted on is probably causing all sorts of havoc, but I see little point in trying to desolder such a tiny part when I am already planning on ordering some new parts which will come on a tape.I reached a new personal record, and to be fair since the fundamental and the second harmonic are all but equal, I'm only claiming the fundamental here.I was able to get a counter to grab the second harmonic but it wasn't stable so, I'm going to make a judgement call and say that it doesn't count...see what I did there?Quote from: 0culus on June 20, 2020, 07:19:02 am

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2020, 03:15:15 pm
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on June 20, 2020, 04:40:30 amYes. This was also covered in those early videos and some of my posts. Trash was also confused by it. Maybe this post will help you:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/challenge-thread-the-fastest-breadboard-oscillator-on-the-mudball/msg3095837/#msg3095837As I mentioned in that post, the oscillator is only good to 8GHzish and the mixer had a max IF of 4GHz, so 8+4=12GHz was about it. The next limit was the DSO which has an analog BW of 5GHz but my Signal Hound is good for 6GHz. In the following post I show the Signal Hound looking at the previous record holder. You can see the signal is there but it's suppressed.https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/challenge-thread-the-fastest-breadboard-oscillator-on-the-mudball/msg3097054/#msg3097054There has been a fair amount of information posted if you care to dig into it. Better yet, build something! Be the second member of the 5GHz club!!

author: PA0PBZ
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2020, 03:20:13 pm
content: @joeqsmith, can you post a picture of your setup that shows all the details (like I did)? I've seen the video's (too far away or too fast panning) and I've seen the pictures of some details but I think I've not seen the whole picture? Correct me if I'm wrong and then point me to what I missed please.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2020, 03:49:56 pm
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on June 20, 2020, 03:15:15 pmI watched the video and I am beginning to see what you are doing.I'm still trying to understand the limitations at DC and 400Hz so 5GHz is a bit down the road!

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2020, 04:07:54 pm
content: Quote from: trash on June 20, 2020, 10:44:07 amThat's too bad. I thought you may have been the second one to reach 5GHz.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2020, 04:11:09 pm
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on June 20, 2020, 03:49:56 pmThere have been a few. This is the one that I was referring to where I show a software simulation of LeCroy's DBI. It seems like we may have had a visit from one of LeCroy's VPs.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2020, 04:13:31 pm
content: That's the one I watched. I liked the software sim idea. Did you do that in LabView?

author: BreakingOhmsLaw
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2020, 04:41:30 pm
content: Quote from: 0culus on June 20, 2020, 03:08:54 pmThat was not directed at you mate, but ogden.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2020, 04:55:47 pm
content: Yes, that's in LabView. With it being YouTube, I wanted some sort of visual demonstration and wasn't able to find anything LeCroy had put out. As Roger points out, it's a simplistic view of it. Still, with the two counters and siggen, you should get a sense of how the down conversion works.Basically every part I used on that first down converter would need to be replaced in order to look at this new oscillator. There is a limit to the parts Mini-Circuits offers. Shown is the new mixer, filter, amp and some coax sections for it.The original goal was to exceed what the counter could display and I wrongly guessed it would overflow at 18GHz but it seems like the tests with the comb generator show it closer to 21.5GHz. It's over what the mixer is good for but we should be able to get something up on the Signal Hound and my old LeCroy.https://www.minicircuits.com/WebStore/dashboard.html?model=ZX05-24MH-S%2B

author: 0culus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2020, 05:03:24 pm
content: Quote from: BreakingOhmsLaw on June 20, 2020, 04:41:30 pmSorry, I couldn’t tell since you didn’t quote him. Anyway, I said my piece and won’t say any more on the subject.

author: PA0PBZ
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2020, 05:09:41 pm
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on June 20, 2020, 04:00:20 pmNone of these show the complete circuit at a size we can see what's going on. I'm asking for something like this:Or this:

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2020, 05:18:25 pm
content: Quote from: ogden on June 20, 2020, 05:37:36 amDoes that mean you have something technical to contribute? I would allow you to bend every rule you like with your 555 timer IC. Just that fact that you actually did something with electronics after all these years would be impressive!!Quote from: ogden on June 20, 2020, 07:08:53 amOf course you are. It's the whole point of trolling.

author: ogden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2020, 07:44:47 pm
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on June 20, 2020, 05:18:25 pmNo. I just pointed at few issues of the contest. Your retaliation with insults, 555 timer sarcasm - that's trolling.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2020, 09:21:45 pm
content: Quote from: ogden on June 20, 2020, 07:44:47 pmI'm sorry that you took those 555 comments as sarcastic. I just assumed this was your skill level or at least something you could actually tackle. I bet you could find some beginners videos showing how to hook one up. Maybe add a your own twist to it, like a flashing LED. You like LEDs don't you??****Now that I understand that the 555 would be a pretty big first step for you, to help you get started, I did a Google search for a simple oscillator and came up with the following link:http://jlnlabs.online.fr/cnr/negosc.htmI know it seems very complex and while the physics behind it are, building it is not too bad. Picture showing the scope attached to the base. 179 is looking at the base, 180 is at the emitter. Transistor is a 2N2222A. Try it. You may find it more fun than spending your time trolling the forum.*****Sorry, I forgot to add an LED. Kids like flashing things right??Pic2 shows the setup. Note the resistor in parallel with the LED. Scope again attached to the base in 175. You could adjust the Rs, C and voltage to get the effect you like.

author: ogden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2020, 05:51:44 am
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on June 20, 2020, 09:21:45 pmWTF is wrong with you. Why instead of building hate device, taking pictures of it, you didn't answer this post:Quote from: PA0PBZ on June 20, 2020, 05:09:41 pm

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2020, 11:02:50 am
content: A competition on how fast a 555 can be made to run, would be a good one for a different thread!

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2020, 12:00:52 pm
content: Quote from: ogden on June 21, 2020, 05:51:44 amAnyone who follows me around from thread to thread like a small lost puppy craving attention deserves some. I provided it in a constructive manner as I assume you are on this forum because of some interest in electronics. Although, I've never seen a post from you that would indicate this I'm willing to provide you with the benefit of the doubt.As to why you choose to follow me around, that most likely is some form of mental illness. Google: "Stalkers are lonely and lack self-esteem, yet they feel very, very important."www.webmd.comNo matter, while you may be "stirring the pot, for entertainment purposes.", I am using you personally for a little entertainment myself. We both get something out of you being here. Its a win win!!

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2020, 12:04:10 pm
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on June 21, 2020, 11:02:50 amStart that competition in the Beginners area and you may get a decent showing.

author: ogden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2020, 12:05:03 pm
content: Quote from: BreakingOhmsLaw on June 20, 2020, 08:47:04 amOver 10MHz you say? Ok. Here you go. Both runs on 2n3904.

author: ogden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2020, 12:08:25 pm
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on June 20, 2020, 09:21:45 pmQuote from: joeqsmith on June 21, 2020, 12:00:52 pmYes, I am subscribed to your YT channel. Yes, I did see that you try to bend breadboard rules and came to this thread and did say so. So what? Your ego received dent in result? - You have issues.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2020, 12:10:27 pm
content: Quote from: ogden on June 21, 2020, 12:05:03 pmDamn, you actually did something!!! Congratulations on your very first technical post!!!

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2020, 12:25:59 pm
content: Quote from: ogden on June 21, 2020, 12:08:25 pmI don't mind. Sadly though you are unable to comprehend that I asked the OP before I proceeded and was told all of these techniques I am using so far are acceptable. Don't forget, this is not my competition, it's the OPs. They set the rules, not me. This means everyone is free to use any of these techniques. Now that you have actually built something, this includes you.I am a bit sad you left the LEDs out but I am VERY VERY impressed with how meticulously aligned every component, ever wire, every thing is. Obsessive compulsive is another form of mental illness. In this case the fact you were able to complete something and show it is huge as I am sure you are still tweaking the wires and not happy with the results.******Hold up there little Chihuahua, you are using a ceramic resonator. Rule 2 No crystals / MEMS etc. Are we allowed to use ceramic resonators?

author: ogden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2020, 12:31:17 pm
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on June 21, 2020, 12:25:59 pmI wonder - when you will stop.QuoteThat was not entry, just teaser.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 21, 2020, 12:53:20 pm
content: Well he's now stopped for 5 days. Lets see if he can find something more useful to do with his time after that!

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2020, 02:18:31 pm
content: What, is one of them taking a time-out? Would rather both. The only thing worse than a troll is a mark that responds to it incessantly.Tim

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 21, 2020, 03:26:35 pm
content: give us a clue, how many pages do I have to read to sort these two out?

author: 0culus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2020, 03:30:18 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on June 21, 2020, 03:26:35 pmOgden has been being a jerk about “dangerous bending of rules” throughout the thread. Even in cases where the OP clarified stuff is ok. He’s trolling, and shouldn’t get off while joe gets a vacation. I have surmised myself that this trolling is a pattern. I won’t be engaging with ‘ogden’ any further.

author: ogden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2020, 03:35:06 pm
content: Quote from: 0culus on June 21, 2020, 03:30:18 pmYou wish. That's cowardly exaggregation. Just read my posts in the profile.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 21, 2020, 03:39:48 pm
content: Right, peace may be upon you all, the troll can have 2 weeks to think about his next report with selective information the other can have a day to think about just reporting trolls next time instead of feeding them!

author: PA0PBZ
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2020, 03:42:52 pm
content: Darn... I just wanted him to confirm to rule 7, now I have to wait even longer if it will ever happen

author: mnementh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2020, 05:50:02 pm
content: Oklay...just happened here...?I generally tend to agree with Oculus' surmise; ogden has been nit-pick trolling the thread pretty hard, and unless joe is outright lying, he has a history of thread-stalking joe.Joe's response, while it may have been viscerally cathartic, was def a bit OTT for a public space; it should've been toned down or if the venting was necessary, taken to PM.But seriously... this is a pretty obvious case of personality-clash oscillation. This is hardly new territory; we've been dealing with this kind of passive-aggressive back & forth since the days of UseNet and the solution is pretty well-established: BOTH parties are responsible. Not JUST the troll, and not just the one(s) feeding the troll. Either both/all or none should be given a time-out. That is why we call it a time-out: Not a punishment, but forcing all parties to step back and consider their contribution to the NOISE part of the SNR.That said... Joe, when you get back, we SERIOUSLY need decently-focused pictures of the ENTIRE circuit. It's delicious to see those numbers, but part of the OP's rules were that the entire circuit needs to be SEEN to count; and it seems obvious to me that requires pictures of the entire circuit rendered clearly enough that someone else COULD duplicate your circuit and results (or at least come close) in a double-blind fashion. So far we have NOT seen any of your circuits in this level of detail.If your circuit requires the Faraday cage, cool. We need documentation-quality pics of the actual circuit before and after the cage is applied. Preferably decent resolution video of the cage IN ACTION; if the circuit works but needs the cage to get your results, you should be able to demonstrate that in real-time.BreakingOhmsLaw, I humbly submit that while joe's results ARE impressive, PA0PBZ is correct: He simply has not given reasonable proof that his actual circuits ARE what he claims they are.Okay... I'm going to go back to lurking and tossing peanut shells now; this "being the voice of reason" thing is quite taxing.mnem

author: 0culus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2020, 06:00:39 pm
content: In Joe's defense, hehasbeen documenting with videos up until about a week ago...another video featuring the new circuit and demonstrating its construction in detail would be great IMO. But yeah, he has been a bit coy and I think one should definitely at a minimum provide high quality photos and tell us exactly what parts you're using, as I have tried to do with each "thing" I've attempted. There's no reason to hide anything about your circuit here unless you are, in fact, cheating the system outside of the spirit of gentlemanly competition. I say this because I support creative RF design as long as the breadboard is intimately involved. Otherwise I could build my circuits Manhattan style.

author: BreakingOhmsLaw
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2020, 06:48:32 pm
content: While I have no reason to suspect foul play on Joes part, I ask him to provide clear images while running and showing the counter for the sake of fairness.I believe that Joe is where he is now, because he has shown good knowledge of RF engineering and particularly how to deal with parasitics (thinning wires, shielding etc.)That said, i have parts on order, and i know i am not the only one. First to dethrone Joe shall be known as the kingslayer from hence forth!

author: PA0PBZ
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2020, 06:55:02 pm
content: Quote from: 0culus on June 21, 2020, 06:00:39 pmFair enough, here's what I used:http://www.cel.com/pdf/datasheets/ne3210s1.pdf

author: 0culus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2020, 07:02:49 pm
content: Mind you, I'm not meaning to suggest Joe is doing something shady...I rather think he is not...just that for the sake of fairness we should strive to be as complete as possible documenting our efforts.

author: PA0PBZ
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2020, 07:07:58 pm
content: Quote from: 0culus on June 21, 2020, 07:02:49 pmI agree, but I wonder why he is keeping his secrets, I'd like to learn how he is doing things, that's why we are here after all. Having said that, I don't like the way he is creating floating capacitors and inductors, it seems to defeat the idea that everything has to be connected via the breadboard but since OP has giving him the OK on that I guess it's fine.

author: BreakingOhmsLaw
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2020, 07:37:11 pm
content: Quote from: PA0PBZ on June 21, 2020, 07:07:58 pmTo be fair, that was basically ogdens criticism.But once you are dealing with microwaves, that can hardly be avoided. If I allow leads to be soldered on SMT parts, what is stopping anyone from making them longer to act as an inductor, or running them along the breadboard as capacitor? So there is little point in forbidding that. Should that prove to be too large an advantage, we may need to split the competition into soldering allowed/not allowed, but for the time being feel that would be to restricting on creating your own capacitors and inductors.Also, long leads can be fair use as a delay line once we go even faster. Wouldn't want to deny those.Feel free to share your thoughts on this, everyone.If there is a large consent on any rule, we can tweak it to keep it fun.

author: 0culus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2020, 07:55:22 pm
content: OK, this is the same 2SC5227 circuit as before, except I very carefully tweaked positioning of the components, particularly the extra inductors I added around the basic Colpitts circuit. I also played with the input voltage. Somehow, this combination of tweaks allowed me to bring the second harmonic 7.5 dB up from the original fundamental, enough to get a stable reading on the 5350B microwave counter.

author: PA0PBZ
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2020, 07:55:28 pm
content: I guess part of the criticism is because he's not showing what he does, we only get to see pictures of part of the circuit. I feel that I'm limited by the length (inductance) and coupling (capacitance) of the breadboard tracks and that is hard to overcome except when you are separating part of your circuit from the breadboard and make it floating.Oh well, let's see what he can show when he's back.

author: PA0PBZ
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2020, 07:57:17 pm
content: Quote from: 0culus on June 21, 2020, 07:55:22 pmI'd say that is a valid entry!

author: 0culus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2020, 08:02:50 pm
content: Quote from: PA0PBZ on June 21, 2020, 07:55:28 pmThe parasitics are interacting strongly at those frequencies, though. This is akin to the Tek 184 high frequency multiplier board that has been shown a couple of times...the two inductors whose interaction with one another are crucial to the circuit's operationdo not touch!I only achieved what I posted above by extremely subtle tweaks to the geometry above the breadboard. It's highly sensitive!

author: 0culus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2020, 08:03:47 pm
content: Quote from: PA0PBZ on June 21, 2020, 07:57:17 pmI feel pretty good about it too, so I'm going to say that I've broken 1GHz now.

author: BreakingOhmsLaw
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2020, 08:06:22 pm
content: oculus, give that whole circuit a good blast with cold spray and post results please. ;-)EDIT: take care not to feed DC into the counter once the condensation kicks in.

author: 0culus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2020, 08:21:08 pm
content: Quote from: BreakingOhmsLaw on June 21, 2020, 08:06:22 pmYeah, I've got dc blocks and am not connecting anything directly to the circuit. All it did was make the frequency vary wildly, and thecurrent draw went negative on the milliammeterI'm monitoring with for a bit (!).It has been slowly converging back on the state shown above as it warms back up.What is the purpose of this? There's an intermittent problem with the milliammeter...sigh...repair queue time...

author: BreakingOhmsLaw
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2020, 09:05:01 pm
content: Quote from: 0culus on June 21, 2020, 08:21:08 pmYou will find that cooling down the FET can give you a frequency boost of up to 25%.Reducing the temperature will increase the mobility of the charge carriers in the channel of the FET because they get less flak from the other atoms they are passing through.An analogy: it's easier to run through a crowd when everybody isn't moving. Cooling down the FET lowers thermal noise and atom movement.The reason why your circuit starts to go fubar is probably the water messing with the parasitics. If you can, just cool the FET ( rig a little cone made from kapton for example).Edit: before anyone gets triggered, yes, it's quantum mechanics, Boltzmann and Planck at work. Not going to open a can of quantum mechanics here though. :-o

author: hendorog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2020, 09:26:23 pm
content: Quote from: mnementh on June 21, 2020, 05:50:02 pmOgden has an established track record as a troll in multiple threads. So no, this is not a personality clash.He or she prefers the argument over the engineering. Shoulda been a lawyer I guess.

author: mnementh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2020, 11:41:11 pm
content: Please don't quote part of my statement out of context and try to counter it as if the rest doesn't matter. I know EXACTLY what is happening here, I described it in precise detail, and in case you didn't realize, I was saying that BOTH parties needed a time-out, not just joe. If you're suggesting that only ogden needed that, then you're the one practicing law in the wrong bailiwick.Quote from: mnementh on June 21, 2020, 05:50:02 pmAll your post above serves is to stir that shit back up again when it has been resolved as well as it's going to be until the parties involved return to this space, and either start it all over again or kiss and make up.Please, for the sake of those who are here to learn something, let this rest for the duration of the time-out. You're just contributing to the above-mentioned NOISE part of the SNR. And so am I, so I'd really rather not be dragged into another such debate in this technically-oriented space.Cheers,mnemAnybody got any peanuts...?

author: mnementh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2020, 12:01:28 am
content: Quote from: 0culus on June 21, 2020, 06:00:39 pmYeah, that's where I was going with my comment; his photos and video show enough to titillate, but either not enough clarity or not the whole picture all at once. I get that he may be playing coy so as to not "spoon-feed" us the answers. I'm down with that to a point. But his documentation definitely skirts the realm of sleight-of-hand.It seems to me that the entire point of this thread is in a way to do precisely that: maybe not to spoon-feed it to us, but at least to get those who are strong with the μwave voodoo to help us break down this black magic region of electronics into small, digestible chunks so we mere mortals CAN grok in fullness.mnem

author: 0culus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2020, 01:35:36 am
content: In any case, I'm putting this project aside till I get some faster parts and some magnet wire in hand. I am now shifting to troubleshooting the Tek 585A I just got...

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2020, 10:56:29 am
content: Dipping my toe in the 1GHz+ club. No vacuum tubes here, just a good old fashioned 2N5179.Transistor pins, left to right, are E, B, C (case is the 4th pin, N/C).Ignore the squiggly wire on the top left, it's out of circuit (should've taken it out of frame..). Power comes in from the left (blue, black), 8V. H-field probe laid over the circuit goes to spec; solder roll used as weight to hold it there. 4.7k and clip leads are just for voltmeter.Harder to see from this angle is the resonant stub, about 50mm of twisted pair coming straight up from the board. It's very nearly end-on in this view. Plugged into B-C positions.A molded choke supplies collector voltage, and 10k pullup and 3.3k pulldown supplies base bias. 1k supplies emitter bias, so it runs at about 1.4mA and 7V in total.No idea what the signal strength is; I shall merely assert that it would be sufficient, given an adequate coupling network. The H-probe is a qualitative measure, after all.Tim

author: BreakingOhmsLaw
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2020, 11:21:35 am
content: Quote from: T3sl4co1l on June 22, 2020, 10:56:29 amGreat job!Love the ghetto H-probeTry cooling the tranny with cold spray for turbo boost (see above).

author: herc
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2020, 07:45:49 pm
content: Quote from: PA0PBZ on June 21, 2020, 06:55:02 pmQuotewhisper that text to a 68'is hippie, a goa-head or a modern psytrance kid, and he will instantly buy that little pill shaped thing

author: KE5FX
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2020, 10:17:01 pm
content: Quote from: herc on June 22, 2020, 07:45:49 pmThey had me at the Infected Mushroom gates...

author: BreakingOhmsLaw
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2020, 03:03:57 pm
content: You know what is really overrated in electronics these days? Components. Who really needs them?All you need for 300MHz is a transistor.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2020, 03:24:21 pm
content: LOL that's minimalist!

author: PA0PBZ
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2020, 03:59:31 pm
content: I bet that would not work without the breadboard though

author: JPortici
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2020, 04:06:18 pm
content: I'd noticed a simillar thing happening with just a BJT and two resistor (base to VCC and collector to VCC).At the emitter you could see an oscillation of decent quality (depending on VCC) at about 137 MHzI didn't submit it because i thought it was just picking up some RF, altough the frequency and shape was unaffected by my hand

author: BreakingOhmsLaw
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2020, 04:20:27 pm
content: Quote from: PA0PBZ on June 23, 2020, 03:59:31 pmAbsolutely. It is running entirely on the parasitics

author: PA0PBZ
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2020, 05:06:05 pm
content: I did the same here but I needed a resistor not to cook the fet. (It died anyway half an hour later...)https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/challenge-thread-the-fastest-breadboard-oscillator-on-the-mudball/msg3100288/#msg3100288

author: mnementh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2020, 06:18:58 pm
content: I bet BΩL is powering it with a CV/CC power supply set quite conservatively.BTW... I REALLY like his documentary photography. I don't even need my glasses to see what he's doing.mnem

author: BreakingOhmsLaw
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2020, 07:17:46 pm
content: Quote from: mnementh on June 23, 2020, 06:18:58 pmYou bet correctly. 1,45V 38mA.

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2020, 02:55:55 pm
content: Quote from: tim_ on June 14, 2020, 06:30:00 pmCongrats getting featured on HaDhttps://hackaday.com/2020/06/23/chaotic-oscillator-from-antique/Tim

author: PA0PBZ
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2020, 06:11:38 pm
content: Quote from: tim_ on June 14, 2020, 06:30:00 pmThat is total chaos! I built the circuit with 3 x BC547c and wow! I have to raise the supply from 4V to about 4.8V before the world turns crazy but then the reward is big.Also checked on the SA, there the baseline just rises well up to 200MHz.

author: herc
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2020, 08:11:22 pm
content: another neat oscillator:http://www.totalitaer.de/Rftechnik/mikrowellensender2.htm

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2020, 10:31:47 pm
content: Quote from: herc on June 25, 2020, 08:11:22 pmThat's funny, I was just thinking if a multivibrator type circuit could be made to work at RF frequencies... Looks like the answer is "Yes"!

author: herc
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2020, 06:02:07 am
content: yes, interesting, isnt it ?and by intuition i guess that this oscillator - though it needs more parts - has a much higher output power than the single transistor designs. what do you think ?

author: BreakingOhmsLaw
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2020, 07:42:27 am
content: Quote from: PA0PBZ on June 25, 2020, 06:11:38 pmThat would make a nice source for a fairly random RNG.I've tried reproducing the noise source from 'The Art of Electronics' where they use the parasitic Zener in a BJT but it would not work very well. I am guessing it needs to be a specific make and model of that BJT. Transistors may be built up in a completely different way depending on manufacturer and year of production, as Richi demonstrates on his great website:https://www.richis-lab.de/2N3055.htm

author: herc
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2020, 07:53:33 am
content: there is another danger in using a transistor as a zener replacement: they are not designed for that and start to age / degrade quickly.what was a nice hardware RNG, might turn - unnoticed - into a non-random something. there is a paper about it:

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2020, 12:04:43 pm
content: Quote from: herc on June 26, 2020, 06:02:07 amIt is possible, but it would just be a guess. There is more gain in the circuit overall so the amplitude might be higher, but other factors could cancel that out. Build and test!

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2020, 12:09:14 pm
content: Quote from: herc on June 26, 2020, 07:53:33 amI recently took apart a piece of equipment that used a matched pair of MAT-01 transistors (two matched NPN transistors in a metal can) mounted in a solid block of aluminum to stabilize the temperature, where one of them was used as a zener. The equipment was probably 30 years old but unlikely to have been in constant operation - but it had definitely seen many hours of use.Just for fun, I decided to measure the gain of the two transistors. The one that had operated in zener mode had a gain that was less than 1/3 of its "partner" transistor... so yes, the "destructive effect" is real and easily measurable.

author: herc
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2020, 11:46:24 am
content: you can simplify the multivibrator oscillator quite a bit: you dont need to feed the coil from the middle, and you dont need the coupling capacitors.this is called the "Ruck-Zuck Oszillator" published by german ham operator Eugen Berberich in Funkamateur 10/2005. It is actually a VCO that works over wide frequency ranges by simply changing the supply voltage.[ Specified attachment is not available ]

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2020, 12:10:25 pm
content: Quote from: herc on June 27, 2020, 11:46:24 amThat looks like a fun little circuit. What does "ruck-zuck" translate to in English?

author: herc
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2020, 12:36:18 pm
content: "Ruck-Zuck" means "very quick" , "in a jiffy", "in no time (at all)"

author: herc
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2020, 02:39:31 pm
content: it was really Ruck-Zuck !seems to have a lot of harmonics ...small loop: around 500 Mhz, rather strong harmonics > 1.5 GHz

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2020, 03:13:59 pm
content: Yes it looks like it is making square waves, LOL!

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2020, 03:18:40 pm
content: Quote from: herc on June 27, 2020, 11:46:24 amFeed the coil from the middle with a current limited supply and you won't need the resistors. I remember reading about that variant of the circuit (plus a reverse diode for protection) operating in the FM band as a simple phone line tap that connected in series with the line.

author: herc
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2020, 04:00:30 pm
content: with a shortcut instead of a loop, the frequency shot up to 1.2 GHz

author: 0culus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2020, 05:08:59 pm
content: I finally received my 38 awg magnet wire and some rather high speed parts from digikey...I'll be experimenting and getting back in the game soon.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2020, 08:19:07 pm
content: Quote from: herc on June 27, 2020, 04:00:30 pmWhat transistors are you using for this?

author: herc
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2020, 09:04:10 pm
content: those transistors are BFR 93A from NXP ( 6 GHz) :https://www.nxp.com/docs/en/data-sheet/BFR93A.pdfi wonder how far up the harmonics can go ?

author: 0culus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2020, 09:41:20 pm
content: Quote from: 0culus on June 27, 2020, 05:08:59 pmNevermind. The parts are too small for me to solder. Already ruined 5 transistors. Lucky they were dirt cheap.

author: herc
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 28, 2020, 07:55:11 am
content: Quote from: 0culus on June 27, 2020, 09:41:20 pmwhat did you order ? what size are they ?i found SOT23 with 1.9mm pin distance is probably the limit for me. i used sticky tape to somehow fix the transistor before soldering.

author: 1uk3
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 28, 2020, 11:55:25 am
content: Quote from: 0culus on June 27, 2020, 09:41:20 pmI recently had to solder magnet wire to a 40pin 0.5mm pitch IC (I messed up the footprint)Just tried the circuit with a pair of BC547 and can't get over 180MHz

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 28, 2020, 12:33:58 pm
content: Quote from: 1uk3 on June 28, 2020, 11:55:25 amI once managed to solder wire strands on to an 0.5mm pitch BGA package. We need a new contest, "Dumbest and most time wasting hand soldering attempt!"

author: 0culus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 28, 2020, 09:13:08 pm
content: Quote from: herc on June 28, 2020, 07:55:11 amI ordered both 18 and 22 GHz RF transistors. I forget the package, but they are tiny. I was able to develop a foolproof method of getting the soldering done. The trick is you must do all the legs at the same time or you'll just be fighting the wires fall off as you heat it. These have 4 legs (two are emitters) so I carefully wrapped the magnet wire across two of them and then again after filing off the enamel. This allowed me to get them soldered all at the same time and then snip the bridge. That said, I haven't managed to get anything oscillating yet.

author: mnementh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 29, 2020, 03:27:23 am
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on June 28, 2020, 12:33:58 pmSuck what...? That sort of soldering is what I do for FUN...mnem

author: BreakingOhmsLaw
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 29, 2020, 12:05:17 pm
content: Quote from: mnementh on June 29, 2020, 03:27:23 amIf Louis Rossmann ever comes across this thread, he is going to curbstomp all of you

author: TheUnnamedNewbie
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 29, 2020, 03:16:00 pm
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on June 25, 2020, 10:31:47 pmYou can use them up to 100's of GHz even, on-chip.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 29, 2020, 05:00:52 pm
content: Quote from: mnementh on June 29, 2020, 03:27:23 am0.5mm BGA being soldered to an adaptor. Would have been easier to get the right adaptor in the first place!The wires are strands of fine desoldering braid...

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 29, 2020, 11:22:18 pm
content: Quote from: BreakingOhmsLaw on June 21, 2020, 06:48:32 pmLooking forward to it!I've been enjoying this book from George Southworth. For the few of you who are actually interested in learning something, I recommend it.https://worldradiohistory.com/BOOKSHELF-ARH/Technology/Fourty-Years-of-Radio-Research-Southworth-1962.pdf

author: mnementh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2020, 12:49:59 am
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on June 29, 2020, 05:00:52 pmThat kind of soldering I do NOT do for fun; I ONLY do it when I'm being well-paid by the hour, NOT flat-rate.mnem*tsssssssst...*

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2020, 01:16:15 am
content: Quote from: mnementh on June 30, 2020, 12:49:59 amLet's just say it was a stretch goal!I proved it could be done, now I won't need to do it again. It was an experience similar to building a ship inside a bottle, only worse!

author: 0culus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2020, 02:57:20 am
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on June 29, 2020, 11:22:18 pmHot damn!! Welcome back Joe...I gotta figure my stuff out...Also, thanks for the book link...I am going to track down a print copy. Fascinating!

author: BreakingOhmsLaw
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2020, 11:14:42 pm
content: Thank you Joe for that very detailed video. Record updated, nice work!If you go any higher, some 3-letter agency is going to kick your door down and drag you off to groom lake for questioning where you got the alien technology from.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2020, 12:04:13 am
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on June 29, 2020, 11:22:18 pmLOL!Congratulations on the craziest electronics project to grace the EEVblog forum pages for a while!

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2020, 12:57:24 am
content: Quote from: BreakingOhmsLaw on June 30, 2020, 11:14:42 pmI would hate you to go away thinking that the 25.0GHz was some glitch and not worthy of the record holder, so I have attached a short clip of it running. 25 has a nice ring to it.Also attached is a picture is showing the the final version of the tuning network. I changed from epoxy to crazy glue for the quick cure times. The smaller wire to get to these higher frequencies. I mentioned the wires were about the size of my whiskers, so I have sacrificed one for this picture.I would imagine anyone with decent equipment could set a new record by just replicating what I have shown.

author: herc
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2020, 05:25:36 am
content: Quote from: TheUnnamedNewbie on June 29, 2020, 03:16:00 pmvery interesting! do they indeed use the same directly coupled transistor multivibrator on chip ? do you have some more links / information ?

author: BreakingOhmsLaw
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2020, 08:07:38 am
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on July 01, 2020, 12:57:24 am

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2020, 01:38:18 pm
content: Quote from: 0culusI wanted to address your PM in public in case someone else has the same question.I have not modified my HP5342A. It appears no options are installed. I have no idea what signal level is required for for this particular counter to lock at 25GHz.You and a few other's have commented about my not disclosing full details and there seems to be a question on my cheating.QuoteQuoteWhile you may feel you "need" to more information, there are no rules requiring a documented bill of materials. It is a competition to see how the few of us entering, measure up against our peers. It's not to teach Dick and Jane how to get their dog Spot to oscillate. Akin to a friendly game of football, we don't normally hand out the play books at the end of a season. It's the OP's competition and I will leave it to them to determine if I have supplied adequate proof of my claims.Personally, I have no interest in being a parrot. It requires no skills or innovation to surpass what I've shown, just better equipment, deeper pockets. Mind you, I am not claiming that a simple feedback network is a innovative. For those who would like to just copy what I have shown, here are a few additional clues that may help.I changed wire sizes. While I stated I was 38AWG Beldin magnet wire, if you are rushing out to buy the same wire I used, you may want to order various spools of smallest you can find.While I mentioned I bought the parts from Digikey, be aware I have procured four different transistors and have shown three of them. Shaving down the leads may help.The wire lengths and position are critical. Without a way to manipulate the wires, I doubt I would see these numbers.From the video, you can see that the coax was a problem. I suspect I could achieve a small amount of gain by connecting the oscillator directly to the counter to remove the return loss of all these connectors. With better equipment you shouldn't need to use the semi-ridged as I have shown. The counter is so far outside it's specified operating region, I'm guessing it is just not sensitive enough.Good luck.

author: herc
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2020, 05:13:50 pm
content: I need some help here understanding why this circuit - a very simple RF Sniffer - works:https://www.instructables.com/id/VHF-UHF-RF-Sniffer/(image and circuit CC by simpletronic)question 1)so ok, the HF Transistor amplifies whatever RF its seeing at its input. Then, at the collector, there is an amplified RF signal.now, the LED starts to light up. But why ? shouldnt the (supposedly) large internal capacitance of the LED shortcut and bypass the AC current ?question 2)how much would the upper cutoff frequency be impacted / reduced if i use two HF Transistors in a darlington setup ?i have a darlington setup on breadboard (6 GHz Transistors). it easily detects 2G signals from my smartphone ( around 900 MHz) but fails to detect the higher LTE / 3G freqencies.it is probably limited by the breadboard capacitances but i still marvel about the internal LED capacitances and [if | how ] that limits the upper detectable frequency.if built on double sided PCB in manhattan style, it seems to be able to pick up Microwave leakage from a microwave ofen:https://www.youtube.com/embed/5ppH2XjC3zM?feature=oembed(video by simpletronic)

author: mnementh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2020, 07:08:18 pm
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on July 01, 2020, 01:49:03 pmJoe, I've already stated I have neither the chops nor the desire to attempt to dethrone you.If you can't handle a little friendly ribbing and an honest request for more detail, that's not my problem. That friendly request WAS pretty clearly defined in what you chose to leave out when you quoted part of my statement out of context.That said, I DO have skin in the game, just the same as everyone who bothers to tune in; the time I spend here looking at what is produced. In the spirit of friendly competition, I didn't feel it unreasonable to expect to actually be able to SEE your circuit. Being a civil voice for those others who just wanted to see is the only contribution I COULD make, so I did my best.Thank you for taking the time to make a"Gizza-ma-hertz for Dummies"type video so we could play along at home; it was a lot more than the "pictures of the entire circuit rendered clearly" I was asking for.Cheers,mnem

author: mnementh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2020, 04:13:18 pm
content: Just because you were being trolled by ogden, don't assume I am.I was NOT stirring, I was asking the OP to make a judgement as to whether you had produced a single decently-detailed pic of your entire circuit. My personal opinion is that you still haven't; but that's just MY opinion.THIS is what Simon was talking about when he said you were feeding the trolls... I'm not trolling, so I'm not gonna bite.Cheers,mnem

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2020, 05:31:12 pm
content: Quote from: mnementh on July 02, 2020, 04:13:18 pmOdd you would feel you could make such a bold statement about my not providing proof of my claims but then not want to discuss it. You call your actions friendly ribbing, civil and claim to be the voice of reason but seem to want to involve the admins when I defend my posts.I have added Ogden to my block list and will include you as it's obvious what your goals are for being here.

author: mnementh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2020, 06:32:10 pm
content: Yup. I'm obviously... asking for a single decently-detailed pic of your entire circuit. I can see how that is so inflammatory.mnem

author: BreakingOhmsLaw
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2020, 06:24:43 am
content: As far as i am concerned the entry is valid. Joe does hold the breadboard into the camera in his video.I do not require to name parts. It is a competition after all, so some trade secrets should be allowed.

author: 0culus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2020, 05:33:13 pm
content: Quote from: BreakingOhmsLaw on July 03, 2020, 06:24:43 amOK, it's been spoken. I disagree, but it doesn't really matter. I was hoping to perhaps learn a few things from other's designs on this thread. If Joe wants to keep secrets, he's free to do so but I do not wish to partake any further. Any remaining desire of mine to work on this has been mostly tamped down anyway by all the unpleasantness. I've got other, more interesting projects to work in my lab that don't involve forum politics. Cya!

author: herc
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 21, 2020, 08:26:14 pm
content: does someone have a suggestion for a fool proof, easy to built power amplifier (centered around 2.4 GHz, lets say with a target power of 1 Watt ?)thanks !

author: avlijas.sladjan
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 12, 2020, 04:14:35 am
content: Yesterday I found a YT video about this funny contest. Thanks to Joe's video I want to make my own oscillator. In the first try I made my record (4.9GHZ) and after a small tuning (cutting) it was 14.4GHz. With this transistor maybe I can go until 20-21G (transistor will have some gain), but it will be maximum. For me it is enough

author: tim_
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 12, 2020, 05:06:58 am
content: Quote from: avlijas.sladjan on August 12, 2020, 04:14:35 amNice, so it's possible to break the 10 GHz barrier without drama.Can you share anything about the circuit and the transistor you used? This looks like a common base collpits oscillator, but why is the base only biased to the ground?

author: avlijas.sladjan
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 12, 2020, 05:41:21 am
content: No problem. This is GaAs FET and needs negative bias, like JFET. With this transistor it is hard to make amp without oscillation

author: avlijas.sladjan
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 12, 2020, 11:25:00 pm
content: Tonight I tried some small tuning, and got 18.7GHz. Now I was done, for more I will need better transistor and some reconfiguration on board

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2020, 11:47:13 am
content: Looks good so far. I see 20GHz+ in your future. Good luck!

author: avlijas.sladjan
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2020, 04:38:54 pm
content: Thank you Joe.Maybe it is good to stop here. I'm afraid that my wife will kick me out from house because I make 5G radiation in children room (my current lab).

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2020, 01:24:07 am
content: Quote from: avlijas.sladjan on August 13, 2020, 04:44:20 pmI would like to see the "or more". I had bought some other parts back then to hedge my bets in case the ones I used wouldn't get the job done. I tried one of them out a while back using a delay line by just shorting the base to the collector. Fairly decent performance. After a bit of trimming, eventually damaged the part. That part is a bit better than what I used for that 25GHz but I can't do anything more with it with the equipment I have available.Your so close to 20, may as well keep going until you reach what that SA can show.

author: avlijas.sladjan
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2020, 02:48:55 pm
content: I changed the YIG filter/preselector on this SA and only adjusted to 22GHz. Also I have an Advantest R3271A (100Hz-26.5GHz, not at home right now), and maybe next week I will have it. Also can bypass the yig filter and use signal ID (to have 26GHZ instrument), but my main problem is the transistor. I will try to find a better transistor but it will be a hard task in Bosnia, also in covid period. I have already waited for some components and parts since april.Before 4-5 month I wanted to buy an external mixer (26.5-40GHz) for HP, but I did not find a reason for this. Now I see that will be good to have it

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2020, 04:51:11 pm
content: The mixer would be the choice if the goal is to shatter the record. If you have easy access to the other SA, it's more than enough to take the lead.We are fortunate to have distributors here like DigiKey who will sell small numbers of parts and carry a wide selection.Hopefully your parts will show up soon enough that you don't loose interest. Personally I am glad to see you putting your equipment to use. Here, it's very easy to get your hands on older equipment, but it's rare to see anyone actually use it.I gave away my old 22GHz HP SA from lack of use. That 20GHz mixer and DRO was about the best I could come up with without buying a new SA. My old counter isn't very sensitive and getting a strong enough signal to drive it was a problem. You're in a much better position.26.5GHz or bust!

author: avlijas.sladjan
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2020, 09:03:11 pm
content: Today I found some transistors (for +20GHz) and ordered them. But I will need to wait, maybe more than 20 days for shipping.To be honest, I was very happy to have instruments to play it. It was very hard to find and buy here, but I saved every money to buy these instruments. And now after regular work I have a small lab for playing.

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 16, 2020, 05:21:28 am
content: I like this! Kind of mad scramble, for what? A, la, the classic movie, "It's a Mad mad, mad mad World", you gotta dial-in some GREED, there: How about one Philly Steak, per day, free. Now, I'm in!I'm thinking Opto-Microwave, seriously; an optical gate or modulator, actuated by microwave, and that responds / reacts to light. Then, your OSC will flash a light, very fast, 'ruining' the gate coherence. Even tho, that gate was really supposed to be microwave actuated. Wrong way, wrong way, but possible to OSC way fast. (?)

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 16, 2020, 04:46:04 pm
content: Quote from: RJHayward on August 16, 2020, 05:21:28 amMake it run on a breadboard and show us!

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 16, 2020, 05:16:20 pm
content: Quote from: avlijas.sladjan on August 15, 2020, 09:03:11 pmMaybe while you wait, you can bring home the faster SA.After playing around with different parts, it seemed as far as making them oscillate and what frequencies could be achieved, I could push them far past the data sheets. I think the part I used at 6GHz, was only characterized to a couple of GHz. With it just needing to oscillate, I took the just try it and see what happens approach. Most of the transistors I tried cost under 50 cents so I wasn't out anything if they get damaged. Shipping was more than the parts so it made sense to buy a few different ones.Good luck. I'll polish up my crown for you!

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 16, 2020, 05:21:11 pm
content: A single component, I'm loosely suggesting, would properly be interfaced by a 'micro-wave' input (port) but the test would be to ignore that, and start using a pulse of light. It's in the realm of parasitic response, utilized (instead of avoiding the light being there at input region).But I gotta read the rules better, as I meant a MEMs device, having a visible light port in and out, plus a micro-wave actuated control input. The control causes disrupted or 'ruined' coherence, eliminating light output emission. Suggestion is try go outside usual device interface, but I guess a try could be made, still within (this) contest.A public contest can be where some really smart Humans will shine their best!I am wondering, is there a region where a waveguide / active MEMs and RF transistor start losing 'trace' wiring and become wholly independent (200 GHz?).And, of course that's called a 'Radio'. Duhooh

author: ogden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 16, 2020, 09:00:18 pm
content: Quote from: RJHayward on August 16, 2020, 05:21:11 pmDon't worry, rules are flexible here. As long as breadboard is part of DC suppy circuit for oscillator - your entry most likely will be accepted. Could you elaborate more about your MEMS device with visible light input and output plus a micro-wave actuated control input?

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 16, 2020, 11:19:10 pm
content: Ogden, the idea bears similarity with the 'garden' light analogy, pointing an LED light, at the photo-panel. So since the little solar cell drives the switch, any increased light (i.e. from unusual pointing set-up) will cause lamp shut-off.Then, such LED shut-off allowing the garden light to come back 'on' thus a circular situation (perpetuates.)This is the basis for further speculation, with additional thoughts regarding hysterisis, and time delays, often extending timing range / stabilizing function.So, you have bought a few surplus micro-optical 'modulators' and the two ports for optical / infrared laser beams are in / out, looking reasonable. But then, a short instruction / spec. sheet lists: "Novel control port uses 110 nM pulsed maser"...What did that mean ?Well, apparently, without that micro-wave arriving, the modulator distorts, and output goes mostly internal reflecting uselessly.Key to all this, apparently, MFG. Sez the unit must be light shielded, as light will also 'mess up' your coherence, (whatever that is).So that is your key: Just take a bit of that infra-red, feed it back around to your 'RotoPhotator' or whatever it's called; The light-pulse, disrupts the means that sent it.It's all the simple paradox of any OSC, really.Trick and skill really gets going, when Tech person has a handle on timing dynamics, and hysterisis.Kept wondering, why the data sheet note insistent on 'shield any nearby source of visible light'

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 17, 2020, 03:19:25 am
content: Ok, starting to hit my stride, (or stagger), but here is continued direction, of last post:I would, first, create a 'Contest Goal', that being first one to reach 200... That's 200 GHz.Now, addressing the hypothetical 'optical' switch / modulator, I believe this was, still, a switched signal, at say, 2 Thz (terra-herz), being switched at 200 GHz. That means you get a few cycles (about 5 cycles) of the faster signal, per each, that's typical modulated, but maybe needs (lots) of wiggle room, to call it a Sine or nearly so...Thanks to T3s14co1l (Tim) for the discussion re: optical signal speeds / voltages / probes reality, a contortion act to comprehend those issues...How about X-rays, next. There, maybe have to keep particle physics, not wave.I make any sense, here ? Some

author: ogden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 17, 2020, 05:58:45 pm
content: Quote from: RJHayward on August 17, 2020, 03:19:25 amWhy don't you take that 200GHz oscillator, throw your 2THz source with modulator in the bin and win 200GHz contest?

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 17, 2020, 09:03:39 pm
content: Attached photo features a MEMs block, that sits above bread-board, uses 10 VDC supply, but I see my faulty plan: That laser, for switching, was to provide the 'substance' being switched, kind of was supposed to be more of a 'DC' potential, for more common OSC.That is, a comparator or OP amp switches DC, to create the waveforms, so right there, FAIL... on my effort.But, idea there, is a MEMs device, requiring the side control port be shielded, from visable light. Which I immediately violate. See the run of optical fiber, to bring some (light) into the CTL port, in disregard of Spec. So correct, you have an oscillator, but that feedback fiber created that. However, not done there, as the 'ruby' laser violates the contest, being an assumed 300 Terra-hz.Keeps me thinking.I searched on 'Optical Modulator has micro-wave control's and got some good results. Plz see Keyang Photonics.Research gate had some papers like; 'RF signal port, to phase-modulate Optical 633 nM output'.A good article, Q.A.Duong, has 2018, called 'Suppression of residual A.M. in microwave controllable field-ready module.'So a little un-focussed, but the OSC basics still apply, that is to use a bit of output, for feedback. I'm using feedback dynamics, but 'negative resistance's, got to be there,... just not explained (here).Now waiting, while study Tim's comments here.

author: ogden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2020, 03:50:00 pm
content: I see problem in your plan: you connect optical output to microwave input.

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2020, 04:17:36 pm
content: Yes, and that is why I try make a schematic, I can see my own goofs. Right now, I've an interest, in making a non-linear spectrum scale:For EM Spectrum base lines,10 T9 T8 T7 T...1 T900 GHz800 GHz...100 GHz9080...10 GHz9 GHzLooks boring, but I need self-educate. The diagram should include 10 khz, a low low RfMore edu, less speculation.

author: ogden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2020, 11:38:36 pm
content: Quote from: RJHayward on August 19, 2020, 04:17:36 pmRight. Best way to educate yourself - take breadboard, some transistor and make oscillator of any frequency you can reach.

author: AnalogueLove1867
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 28, 2022, 10:39:08 am
content: Hi, a bit late to the party!Can't believe nobody here hasn't just made a cm or mm long spark-gap bipolar antenna as an oscillator.Then the capacitance of the bread-board won't even matter.Spark gaps can go well into the 1 to 100 Ghz microwave zone.You could even put the miniature antenna into a piece of scap tubing as a wave guide and then measure the radio noise out the other end.I don't have the equipment for measuring anything beyond 200Mhz so hopefully somebody here can do it instead haha.ALSOIf you put a breadboard on top of a sheet of aluminum foil that is directly connectedto the positive terminal of its own power supply an NPN based astable multivibrator will sometimesresonate at over 100 times its natural frequency.Don't know why this happens, and once again hopefully somebody else can try this out with superior equipment.

author: buta
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2022, 02:20:25 am
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on July 01, 2020, 12:57:24 amThe attached picture zoom_10.JPG shows the tuning network is a motorbike, is it correct?

author: KE5FX
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2022, 02:52:31 am
content: Quote from: AnalogueLove1867 on June 28, 2022, 10:39:08 amExtremely small spark gaps arekind of interesting.From that thread:Quote