Things used to lasts... - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 29, 2017, 08:40:03 pm
content: Last month, I replaced a >30 year old dish washer (GE brand). The electo-mechanical stuff were working fine. The molding dried out a bit at one corner and was patched - that was the only failure. The death was a crack at the base of the washer cabinet so water was leaking out. I suspect had I glue that crack back, it may run for a few more years.This week, I am looking for a replacement for my clothing washer (Kenmore brand). This one is > 25 years. I replaced the timer mechanism twice, water pipe valve once. Other than that, the washer just kept on chucking along doing a rather nice job. The wash bucket recently developed some rust and clothing is getting some rust stains. So, I am looking for a replacement now.As I was shopping for a replacement washer, I went to my kitchen to warm my coffee. It occurred to me: This is my third microwave oven in the last five years!I can't help but think -- gee, why can't we build things like that anymore.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 29, 2017, 08:54:21 pm
content: They still do, but you have to be willing to pay a premium for high quality products.But many people live in a "throw away" society. They buy products at the cheapest possible price and just throw them out when they fail. I just had a quick Google and in Australia, you can walk into a store and buy a microwave oven for under $50 and Kettles for under $10. I'm sure if you really looked you could probably find them even cheaper for the lowest possible quality crap.I prefer to do my homework and spend a decent amount of money on products which last. For example my fridge is made in Australia and the brand renowned for their longevity. Same as my washing machine and dish washer, both Siemens/Bosch (German made, not the Chinese made Bosch).The old saying "you get what you pay for" is generally very true.

author: Alex Eisenhut
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 29, 2017, 09:04:52 pm
content: Meh, tell me about it. I run a small condo. Microwaves break often, usually in the door, where the latch spring hooks into the door. The piece of plastic that holds the spring is less than 1mm thick. It's under constant strain.They're over the range models so it's not just the new oven, it's the labor. Luckily I had some JB Weld Plastic stuff and a PCB assembly rail with a hole. I glued in the piece of rail, let it set, and the door works again.My own microwave had the "dead keyboard syndrome" because something in the keypad went bad. Took me three attempts and it's fixed now.Then there's the ballcock in the toilets. (My Italian neighbor didn't believe me when I said the part is called a "ballcock"). It's the new all-plastic kind without the floater. Seemed OK, but they fail after about a year.I think it's because the flapper doesn't seat correctly and water is constantly flowing out, wearing out the plastic valve. I guess, I don't know. I noticed the silly plastic chain that holds the flapper valve seems to enjoy knotting itself up, therefore shortening, therefore pulling on the flapper.The old metal-ball-chain didn't twist itself like that.I paid way too much for my dishwasher, which I then cleverly didn't use for 5 years. I hooked it up and it works fine. It's all stainless steel, thick, and heavy. It runs a lot quieter than the all-plastic ones too. 4 times the price though.

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 29, 2017, 09:24:32 pm
content: Quote from: Halcyon on August 29, 2017, 08:54:21 pmIt may not be as true as you and I like to believe.When the old-old-old microwave died, I went with an expensive replacement (>$400 five years ago), it lasted only just past the warranty period! In fact, I recalled ranting "why can't it fail just a week sooner." After that, my next one was a cheap one (approx $70) which actually lasted about 3 years. Now I am on the third which is also a cheap one.

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 29, 2017, 09:53:52 pm
content: Quote from: Alex Eisenhut on August 29, 2017, 09:04:52 pmMy old metal chain also knot itself up. After a lot of fiddling, I came up with something that works!(Inspired by three-section nunchaku - the two-section nunchaku was the fame weapon used by Bruce Lee in his movies)I use drinking-straw as jacket:- I first cut the drinking straw to the right length.- I then further cut that piece into 3 separated pieces.- The metal chain is then fed through the three cut straw pieces.- Then I have a chain+straw that is like a 3 section nunchaku with a bit extra chain at the ends.The cuts serve as elbows so the rather stiff straw+chain can bend at only the two cut locations plus the ends. These elbows allow some flexibility yet prevents knotting.Give that a try - works very well for me.

author: alank2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 29, 2017, 10:23:22 pm
content: Quote from: Rick Law on August 29, 2017, 09:24:32 pmI think this is true - a lot of more expensive items are not necessarily higher quality. They are built for marketing reasons and they may look nicer, but in many cases are not much better. Or they can be worse! The value per total cost of ownership may be much higher on cheaper items in some cases. I've seen people spend huge $$$ on fancy refrigerators and then pay $ and $ and $ again on having their fancy refrigerator repaired again and again.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 29, 2017, 11:19:18 pm
content: People like cheap sht with a lot of features from appliances to hand held meters.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 29, 2017, 11:31:33 pm
content: Quote from: alank2 on August 29, 2017, 10:23:22 pmCorrect, however I did mention in my post that I also do my research before buying and that's very important. Price alone doesn't equal a better or worse quality product, it's just a fairly large factor.

author: helius
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2017, 12:48:06 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on August 30, 2017, 12:17:10 amI don't want to defend Apple, but I've noticed that the LCDs they use definitely have memory and the ghost images can be erased by exercising the display.

author: aargee
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2017, 05:57:42 am
content: I think you'd find a lot more longevity in items if consumer law standardised warranty periods to 'fit for purpose' time spans.E.g. standard warranty on a refrigerator could be 10 years, because that is how long society would realistically expect such a device to last.Downside is.. we would pay a lot more as companies tried to maintain their ridiculous growth rates but unable to poorly engineer goods forearly life failurelow cost (which is exactly what happens now)

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 30, 2017, 08:20:03 am
content: Quote from: aargee on August 30, 2017, 05:57:42 amAustralian Consumer Law pretty much does just that and clearly stipulates that just because something is outside of a manufacturer-specified warranty period, doesn't mean it's not eligible for replacement or repair if it fails.A great example of this is AppleCare (extended warranty for Apple devices). Essentially, it gives you nothing over what the ACL already does in legislation (except for technical support). Extended warranties in general are a complete waste of money.https://www.accc.gov.au/business/treating-customers-fairly/offering-warranties/warranties-against-defects/examples-for-warranties-against-defects#example-for-how-nbsp-warranties-interact-with-consumer-guarantees

author: AndyC_772
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2017, 08:32:36 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on August 29, 2017, 08:54:21 pmThat's all very wellifyou can find up-to-date, reliable information on which products are constructed to a high standard.Go into any white goods retailer, though, and you'll be lucky to find correct information on how big something is and how many ice cube trays you get with it.Ask about the materials and build quality, and you'll get a blank look, perhaps accompanied by some vague, meaningless reference to the number of units they've sold, and of course, the inevitable attempt to sell an extended warranty.Also bear in mind that it may simply not be possible to buy a high quality itemat all. For example, if anyone can point me in the direction of a tyre pump that's not either (a) ridiculously cheaply made crap, or (b) a professional tool requiring a compressed air supply, then please do so. I've been trying to buy one for years.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2017, 09:02:13 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on August 30, 2017, 08:20:03 amWe have a similar thing in the UK too. The trouble is what's a reasonable length of time is open to interpretation and the price is a factor. If one buys something very cheaply, it's not reasonable for them to expect it to last as long as a premium product of the same type.

author: helius
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2017, 09:56:11 am
content: Quote from: AndyC_772 on August 30, 2017, 08:32:36 amA (bicycle) hand pump or electric? Silca and Topeak both supply high quality bike pumps.

author: AndyC_772
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2017, 10:52:18 am
content: I'm after a foot pump, for car and motorcycle tyres.Funnily enough, I have a Topeak bicycle pump, which simply refused to inflate certain inner tubes at all. It turned out that the spring which is required to depress the central pin in the valve was simply too weak for the job. Fortunately it was easy to disassemble that part of the pump, and replace the spring with one from a biro, which was a perfect fit and just the right stiffness to make it work properly.As a bonus of sorts, I now also have a biro with a weak click action, which serves as a reminder not to make poor design decisions without testing things properly first.

author: IanMacdonald
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2017, 10:57:59 am
content: Well, I had two top-brand kettles, one of which the lid was insecure and dangerous as it could pop open and spray you with steam. I threw it out. Its replacement worked OK or a while, then developed an internal leak and shorted in the base.Since then I've bought two 'budget essentials' kettles which gave excellent service, and were only replaced because they became a bit tatty-looking. Now using a top-brand kettle which has a slight steam leak around the lid which you have to watch out for. So, all in all, the very cheap products scored top on all counts of value, safety and service, whilst the branded products most definitely did not.Had a couple of supermarket own-brand toasters that have performed very well. Again the first one was only replaced because it became a bit tatty-looking after years of service. It still worked.I don't say that's necessarily the pattern for all products, but in my experience cheap 'n cheerful is not necessarily poor quality. Neither is expensive necessarily good.

author: BBBbbb
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 30, 2017, 11:17:32 am
content: Unfortunately neither price nor the brand can be a guarantee of quality. Everyone are looking to put their product in a nice package so they can charge more, and brands get passed around between companies...So a research is a must prior to any buying.That's how I ended on this forum - was looking for some gear and google just kept throwing me to the eevblog forum for reviews and opinions, I didn't even know about Dave's videos at the time.But for people like me the problem starts when you end up trying to research every single thing you want to buy, just not enough time and the return of investment is not adequate in many cases.So basically if something is not that important I'll buy it based on a single recommendation (from a fairly trusted source), or go for a cheapo. Rest gets researched.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2017, 11:44:12 am
content: Quote from: Rick Law on August 29, 2017, 09:24:32 pmIn the future, in such situations, see if the credit card you used to pay for it offers warranty extension.

author: AndyC_772
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2017, 11:45:42 am
content: I've had similar experiences with kettles and toasters. I went through several 'quality brand' kettles, which just started leaking around the base and weren't repairable, but now have a Tesco own-brand thing which has survived regular use (and occasional abuse) much better. My £10 toaster did a fine job too, but eventually had to go just because it became unsanitary.With more complex products, price can even be inversely proportional to quality. When DVD first came out, I spent about £650 on a top-of-the-line Toshiba unit, which had an excellent picture and sound, but froze and skipped on certain discs because of software compatibility problems. Much cheaper players, which of course sold in much larger numbers, were tested more thoroughly against a much wider range of available titles, and had far fewer such problems.

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2017, 12:24:34 pm
content: Quote from: aargee on August 30, 2017, 05:57:42 amFormer East Germany had design guidelines about the life span of some products, like 20 years for fridges. But I think that would be the wrong way to reduce the amount of trash and wasted ressouces to build all the junk. IMHO, vendors should state the expected life span of each product. And law should also force vendors to provide service documentation, spares for custom parts and firmware updates/bug fixes for a specific minimum time, while devices/machines have to designed to be repairable in case they're expected to last for several years and aren't so cheap that a repair would be unreasonable.

author: skarecrow
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2017, 12:48:29 pm
content: Quote from: Rick Law on August 29, 2017, 09:24:32 pmHow do you people keep breaking microwaves? My current microwave has been abused by a 7 person household for over 10 years! The only problem we've ever had with it was one time when too much steam condensed in the bottom it shorted out and popped the fuse inside the microwave. I pulled the case off, swapped in a new fuse, and it's been going strong another 4 years. TBH I can't remember for the life of me what brand it is, but I know it's a cheap one.Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk

author: Assafl
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2017, 01:08:07 pm
content: There is quality and then there is serviceability. The reality is that both the product - and the service eco-system - are needed for a product to endure a long service life.The problem is the implementation/interpretation of a manufacturers' business model for serviceability in different localities.My assumption buying a product is that a $200 AEG (the new crap ones) washer and a $500 Miele should costs EXACTLY the same in terms of TCO (assuming they are similar in specs). This is obviously over the lifetime of the expensive goods... (so you may need two cheaper washer + spares for the cheaper model).Now comes the reality of importers making Shiite with the services business model. As an example, the Miele washer had a tear in the door seal. In Germany, the seal is a bit under 50 Euro. In the UK - the same goes for 90 Pounds. In Israel - ~150 Euro (this price is under service contract!!!).A German has a real reason to buy a Miele (quality of product and service). For an Israeli - it is a total waste of money (service costs, and let alone that the importer will only service it for 7 years).Same goes for Gaggenau. When a PCB fried I was told by the service person to get a new one. Another company whose service framework is incompatible with Israeli importer's business model.In Israel (and BTW - in the US) both Gaggenau and Miele are luxury brands - Not considered high quality brands like Whirlpool Commercial. (In the US you can do fine with both brands if you are in a large city like Los Angeles, San Francisco and New York City).The difference between the Quality and Luxury business models (for the importers) is that luxury model is just as disposable as low-end. The importer (Companies like Electra for Miele and BSH Israel for Gaggenau) reaps the rewards of the high price without allocating resources for support and gouging for spare parts to dissuade serviceability.If (and only if) one can service the products themselves - (as I do), and source spare parts in the UK and Germany and eBay - one can reap the reward of the higher quality products. Otherwise they are not worth the extra mullah.Unfortunately, manufacturers play along with the shoddy models of their importers. As example, both BSH and Miele protect the importers by proactively preventing access to support literature. Aftermarket support has to find parts on-their-own and fend for support literature. Most just give up and do what they can.So the sad juxtaposition: I own great shit that I love but (unfortunately) I can't recommend to anyone... How lame is that?

author: Kevman
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2017, 02:24:46 pm
content: My parents have been through 3 microwaves since I was born 1986- and second one was a dumpster find with a bad microswitch. The first one we repaired several times, though.My current microwave has a manufacturing date of 1996. I suspect its been repaired, though, because there's a spare one in the garage.They don't seem to die too often.

author: A Hellene
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2017, 02:27:23 pm
content: The name of the game is calledPlanned obsolescencewhile this corporate scum must be played on the consumer community before thenineteen twenties(see:Phoebus cartel).This is an eye-opening documentary, called 'The lightbuld conspiracy' regarding the corporate global tungsten manipulation (and not only...) by a few nasty players that shook hands under the table:-George

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2017, 03:43:53 pm
content: The light bulb conspiracy is the ONLY case I'm aware of ofactualplanned obsolescence. Everything else is nothing more than engineering down to a cost, which is not the same thing.Over the years, as things came down in price, it became less cost-effective to repair them. That in turn led to it making no sense in designing for repairability, since it makes no sense to repair from a cost perspective.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2017, 03:49:50 pm
content: Quote from: Rick Law on August 29, 2017, 08:40:03 pmWell, basically, we don't now, and we didn't really in the past.I remember recently seeing a Maytag ad from the 1950s or thereabouts, and it focused on how friendly the Maytag repairman is when he comes. Because back then, machines broke down and required comparatively frequent maintenance. And don't forget how much the appliances cost back then!!As much as we bitch and whine about unrepairability (and I agree that it has environmental consequences that perhaps need to be captured better in the price), but the fact is, the reason we don't repair is because it's not cost effective. When a repair costs 5% ($500) the cost of a $10,000 machine, we do it (look at cars). But nowadays, if that same machine costs $1000, then spending $500 on it doesn't make sense. Even less so if the machine costs $500.With the actual costs of these machines having gone down so much, then yeah, the manufacturers have to cut costs, and that means designing to make it last as long as needed, but no longer. Why design one part to outlast the others?

author: b_force
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2017, 03:50:42 pm
content: Quote from: Rick Law on August 29, 2017, 08:40:03 pmThey still can for a decent price.But not if they wanna safe every penny for profit.And a million pennies is still a lot of money.Second part is, if you build something that lasts forever, you dig your own grave after a while.Simply because people don't need new stuff anymore.Welcome to capitalism 101edit:This is also where smaller companies can really shine.Because you're selling less, you don't need to turn every penny.This results in a (sometimes much) better design, product and/or service.

author: boffin
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 30, 2017, 03:54:53 pm
content: Interesting thread.I love things that are built to last, as I stare at a simpleSwingline 747 stapler on my desk. I know it will last longer than me.Also I use a 1970s era Weller Soldering iron as my go to. Still works, and I suspect will also out-last me.

author: skarecrow
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2017, 03:56:57 pm
content: Quote from: boffin on August 30, 2017, 03:54:53 pmA million Office Space quotes flooding my brain. :-DSent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2017, 07:25:49 pm
content: I think that several different things are being discussed in this thread.Durabilityis not tangible but is indirectly evaluated by its tangible cousinrobustness- more money seems to get you products that have more robustness (a stove with heavy cast iron grills, for example), but nothing really guarantees its durability (the same grills may rust in a short time). Worse, nowadays there is a lot of buried electronics inside these products, thus nobody can tell how well a board will survive a transient, of course (if anything, we throw joeqsmith's jig to show them what they are capable of)Another two factors that are helped by choosing a reputable brand (and sometimes more money):longevityandserviceability. While the former can be directly related to its durability, it can also be made to live longer by being serviced, as some of the previous posts mention how the appliances were repaired from time to time. A reputable brand may have a better network of service centers and even parts available on the retail market (the US is absolutely wonderful for this)As for my list of things that lasted and others that didn't:- TVs: we were very lucky with this. A Samsung 26'' from 2006 lasted 10 years before we sold it still in excellent condition. One Sharp 55'' TV that has been going strong for 8 years. One Sharp 70'' still great but still too new (2 years). A Philips 34'' CRT that failed after 10 years of service (and I couldn't be bothered to repair).- Blu-Ray and DVD players: all our DVD players are still going strong (three Philips with 12, 10 and 6 years of use). Bluray players are worse: a Samsung started failing after only 2 years and a 6 year old LG is still working, but it has a somewhat bad UI.- Portables and cell phones: apart from dead pixels on my wife's brand-spanking-new Galaxy S8+ (promptly replaced), all others were run over by obsolescence (Palm Tungsten E and Lifedrive, HTC Windows CE smartphone, a number of flip phones, portable CD player, Apple iPod nano, etc.)- PC Laptops: quite varying degrees of durability, but all repairable. War tanks: Dell Latitude CPi, D410 and E6520; 2006 an 2012 Toshiba Satellite (the 2006 is still working after being anointed with Cranberry Juice). Lemons: Dell Latitude D620/D630 (bad Nvidia board), Dell Latitude C610.- Appliances: all good. 11 year old fridge from GE (I repaired two failing Al Caps in the control card) and washer/drier from LG. A 6 year old Bosch dishwasher has been a bit erratic but is repairable. A Whirlpool freezer (was top of the line at the time) made me weep - failed immediately after the warranty expired but it was repairable (I improved it in a number of ways). This freezer was replaced recently by a larger Frigidaire - hopefully it will last, but it is repairable as well.- Minor appliances: nothing worth mentioning; toaster works absolutely fine after 10 years (B&D), while we went through a very large number of dirt cheap George Foreman electric grills, but these were replaced every two years mostly due to the poor durability of the heat pads. Iron, hair drier, electric razor, humidifiers, etc. all fare very well to the test of time.All in all, I can't really tell if things are simply worse nowadays or just less repairable...

author: rustybronco
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2017, 08:12:35 pm
content: Kenmore Elite branded LG microwave. Over the range model 12 years old. Still ticking.Kenmore Elite lower freezer refrigerator. Rebranded LG. Fixed twice. Compressor died twice. The third time it failed it plugged the cap tube. The originals died because of insufficient air flow. Can't blame the product for that. Replaced one and a half years ago with a smaller LG 'Inverter Tech' french door model.Kenmore branded dishwasher. 11 years old. Lower housing seal leaked and corroded a wire off one sensor. Repaired the wire, the sensor and replaced the lower housing because the seal was not available separately. After I taking it apart to replace the housing, I found the seal was easily removable. Purchased a spare seal to keep on the shelf.Kenmore dual fuel range. The first control board failed and burned some traces off. Purchased and installed a rehabbed board. The oven element relays eventually failed again. This time I replaced them with $4 units from digikey. Had to repair one trace. Purchased two spare relays to keep on the shelf for when it does it again.Kenmore Elite HE washer and dryer. Rebranded Bosch units. Approx 10 years old. Still ticking.

author: Tomorokoshi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2017, 08:49:21 pm
content: Quote from: boffin on August 30, 2017, 03:54:53 pmAceliner 502 here!You know the old joke about people stealing office supplies? I brought oneintowork!My microwave is perhaps 25 years old. About 15 years ago it stopped working. The center pin on a TO-220 triac became unsoldered - there was no solder around it. Thermal cycling? Resoldered it and it's worked fine since.As for dehumidifiers:Units built until around 1985 all have the same basic design. The evaporator is either an oval or spiral coil of an aluminum tube, kind of hanging in the air or supported with a plastic frame. The main cover is steel, usually with plastic grills.Since then they started to move to the plastic ones. The evaporator is now typically made out of copper tubes with pressed-on aluminum fins, soldered together with 180 degree elbows, all supported by a galvanized steel frame.This is the evaporator we're talking about. The business end that gets cold and wet. Let us count the number of metals involved:- Steel for the supports- Zinc galvanization for the steel- Copper soldered together- Lead, tin, or whatever is in the solder- Aluminum finsSo anyway, after about 10 years the galvanization corrodes, which then allows the steel to corrode, which then seems to typically corrode a pinhole in the soldered connection. Most of the working fluid leaks out, turning the dehumidifier into a do-nothing machine.The old ones keep working just fine, as long as the condenser and evaporator are kept clean. Sometimes a fan motor needs to be replaced, but those are usually easy to do.

author: boffin
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 31, 2017, 02:02:11 am
content: I'll offer up three things which I think represent what I consider the 'perfect implementation'.So good, you really don't need to mess with it, or you should go back to making it.1) The swingline stapler (model 747)2) The Moka Pot espresso maker3) The DeHavilland Canada/Viking DHC-6 Twin Otter (put back into production after 23 years out of production, because nothing was quite as perfect)

author: boffin
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 31, 2017, 02:06:15 am
content: Quote from: Tomorokoshi on August 30, 2017, 08:49:21 pmNow there's a classic.I also use a [Silver Series] Staedtler Lead Holder, along with a cast-iron Trupoint lead pointer as the go-to writing instrument on my desk

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2017, 02:41:23 am
content: Quote from: rsjsouza on August 30, 2017, 07:25:49 pmPopularity is an important factor as well - it affects availability of replacement parts.The times when I had to replace my 25+ years old washer's timer mechanism, one time it was the rotary mechanism and second time it was the timer-motor. The third time was inlet water valve. Each time I was able to locate the part easily - on eBay.At the garage where I frequently get my car repaired, they had a special edition car (not sure if I should mention brand), less than 8 years old, looks great, but for the lack of part, it had been sitting there for months according to the garage owner.So, lesson is, if you get something special, getting parts for it later may well be special as well - specially hard.

author: Cubdriver
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 31, 2017, 06:28:15 am
content: Ace Pilot 404 stapler. It's likely older than I am.-Pat

author: basinstreetdesign
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2017, 06:39:43 am
content: If you want to know why appliance quality sucks as much as it does, talk to an appliance repair man - the kind who will come out to your place to look at your fridge or whatever.When after 20 yrs, our Maytag dishwasher, which we bought in '92, finally needed a new rack because the plastic coating had worn and was depositing rust on our plates we were told it was out of production and stock was gone. So we went looking for a new Maytag. At Home Depot we were told NOT to buy one. The company had been bought up and the production was moved to China. The previous legendary quality of Maytag died and customer service dried up. Also the warranty deals were recalculated according to latest stats which could maximize profit and keep the factory busy. The priority was the factory NOT spare parts.The new machine, a GE, worked for about 4 mo (of a 1 year warranty). Then the displays on the controller bd started losing segments. It could still be used if you knew the button sequences but the display was unreadable. The service man said a new bd was fully half the price of a new machine. So, like a million other consumers we decided to just skip the repair and use the machine. I'm sure that what the makers hoped was to sell us a new one! - Screw that!As for chasing a warranty through the bureaucracy, we didn't even try after watching a Canadian national show called Marketplace (on CBC) try just that with a few customers' machines made by several big-name appliance makers. The show found out about those customers because they had been sending help messages to the show website. After a couple of months of phone tag, emails, and waiting for snail mail, the only time they got anywhere was when they identified themselves to the makers head office. When the head office understood that their poor performance was going to be seen on nation-wide TV they finally coughed up brand new appliances for those customers.Amongst the whole lot of them, the manufacturers, the retailers, and the service guy, the only one who really impressed us with positive attitude was the service guy since he always told us the truth and never tried to sell us something we didn't need.I'm a firm believer in that the makers put a lot of science into the statistics of their market. They know exactly how much quality to build in so that the losses due to warranty repairs (rigorously minimized with aggressive dis-incentives) will be held to a certain low percentage of gross margin. And they know exactly what their gross margins will be and how to establish those margins with what kind of engineering, mass production techniques, and sales channel costs.

author: BradC
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2017, 06:43:00 am
content: Quote from: Tomorokoshi on August 30, 2017, 08:49:21 pmThe "solder" you refer to is about 95% copper. They're not soldered, they're brazed and brazed with the cheapest brazing material you can lay your hands on. It's almost all copper. The difference between the old ones and new ones is a combination of manufacturing cost and efficiency. The newer units simply remove more water per unit electricity used.Anyway, the specific evaporator construction you complain about is in every air-conditioner both evaporator and condenser dating back decades prior to the units you are complaining about and still used currently. Sure, using galv to support them is a bit silly, but the fundamental heat exchange unit design is sound. There's an awful lot more contact area in those "Aluminium fins" than in a spiral of Ally tube.

author: basinstreetdesign
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2017, 06:48:20 am
content: Quote from: Cubdriver on August 31, 2017, 06:28:15 amI take it it never jammed and you never had to force it.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2017, 11:49:33 am
content: Quote from: boffin on August 31, 2017, 02:02:11 amActually, IMHO Swingline actually did manage to outdo the 747: theOptima Desk stapler. It's more or less the same as the 747, but the top half is also die cast (in the 747, only the bottom is). These things are tanks. I bought one around the year 2000 and it still works like brand new, which I don't really expect to ever change. Without doubt, what's gonna fail on these long-term is the rubber on the grip and the base.<rant>As an aside, staplers are something that baffle me here in Europe. For the most part, European office supplies are of outstanding quality. (Most of my writing implements are German.) But their staplers largely suck. I'm sure that nice die-cast ones exist, but you never see them. Here in Switzerland, what you see everywhere are the awfulBostitch B8staplers. They get the job done I guess, but they don't come close to the smoothness of a Swingline.Leitz makes a die-cast stapler but I've never seen one in in the wild at an office supply shop, office or school here. (I have a fantastic Leitz die-cast 4-hole hole puncher I bought for $5 at a thrift shop, which is something like $90 new.)</rant>

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2017, 06:17:37 pm
content: I've an Ace 102 stapler that I inherited, which is also older than I am.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 31, 2017, 08:40:32 pm
content: I make my living as a landlord since 2002 and do most repairs/installations myself. There's been a continual decline in the quality and longevity of practically all manufactured items that are installed in a home. Water heaters installed in the last 20 years fail well before their expected lifetime. I have older units with some water heaters still running after 20+ years. New ones have failed within 2 years. Plumbing fixtures have especially gone down in quality. Brass tubing has become practically non existent or is so thin that you have to be careful not damage while installing, chrome plated plastic, etc., etc.I have one unit where I finally retired an old Okeefe oven/range that dated from the 1950's. It was built like a tank. I just replaced 2 stoves that where less than 5 years old.I've been around for a while and the topic of inferior quality has been around since the 1960's, but the current crop of consumer household goods has probably the lowest longevity I've ever seen.I think manufacturers sold there soul's when the rushed in moving their manufacturing to china in the name of lower prices. You can still get high quality items, but the prices are quite high, sometimes 3x or more of "home depot" items.I don't know how sustainable all these cheap goods are. They all end up in the trash within a few years. Every time I walk into a home depot store I think about how long it will take for the entire store inventory to end up in a garbage dump.

author: Refrigerator
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2017, 10:28:01 pm
content: I guess my car is also a part of this whole deal.SAAB wanted their product to be as good as can be and for that they were loosing money hand over fist for every car sold.Even after GM told them to make their cars to a budget they still did everything their own way, eventually going bust.Looking at my SAAB i can say that it's pretty great, i'd say it was better than a BMW of the same price at the time.

author: Quarlo Klobrigney
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2017, 12:57:52 am
content: In my experience the staplers are fine, it's just the staples are weak little things. They bend over when they shouldn't. Having been made from wilted flowers lately, (Chinese steel) they can't even staple 5 sheets of paper anymore without wilting at the thought.

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2017, 02:06:58 am
content: QuoteAnother classically cited example is womens stockings. The original iteration lasted for years. Engineers were paid to make them fail.But all you have to do is look around. From laptops for which replacement batteries end up costing $60.00+. Computers, in general. Did you buy the lowest model that would work for you? And now it is basically unusable, because of OS updates slowing it down? Automobiles? Every x years, the manufacturer makes a new model... this makes the parts, particularly the body panels, of older vehicles vaporware after some time. (Perhaps not a huge issue for many cars... but this is a very huge problem for sports motorcycles, in particular.) And it's not like the vehicles 99% of us drive today are any better than the ones from 10 years ago. The major things that changes is... style. And styling itself is a focus of planned obsolescence. Power tools: again, the battery thing. And also, manufacturers love the butyl rubber molded inserts, which begin to rot and turn to dirt-colored gum within months, and which is curiously difficult to remove. We love buying new things and throwing them away. Bottled water.

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2017, 03:07:21 am
content: Quote from: KL27x on September 03, 2017, 02:06:58 amTo be fair, most of it usually ends up flushed down the drain.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2017, 05:41:49 am
content: Quote from: KL27x on September 03, 2017, 02:06:58 amI recently restored a Core 2 Quad machine for a family member and it runs the latest Ubuntu very well. If it's any slower than it was 10 years ago, it's certainly not by much.

author: WastelandTek
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2017, 05:56:27 am
content: At the risk of politicizing the thread, I have come to the conclusion personally that one of the major causes of garbage quality products (I have seen many that are literally direct from retailer to landfill) is endless credit expansion. It is my earnest hope that we are able to transition to a deflationary economic model where every purchase inflicts actual pain on the consumer, only then will better choices be made.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 03, 2017, 06:11:02 am
content: Quote from: WastelandTek on September 03, 2017, 05:56:27 amWhy not just enforce mandatory warranty periods where during normal use, it's guaranteed a particular device will last a certain amount of time. For example, it's reasonable to expect something like a toaster or kettle should last at least a couple of years, a fridge, 10 or 15 years.It would essentially force certain manufacturers to stop skimping on their products and reduce the amount of waste that is thrown out each year. China will probably go broke, but oh well.

author: WastelandTek
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2017, 06:20:12 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on September 03, 2017, 06:11:02 amI do not believe in government through coercion

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 03, 2017, 06:46:16 am
content: Quote from: WastelandTek on September 03, 2017, 06:20:12 amWhy not? You think the majority of budget and mid-level quality manufacturers of products are interested in making sure your products last longer? Or that you will need to come back after a few years and buy a new one?History has proven that many can't be trusted. This thread alone says it all. The quality of products has fallen despite improvements in technology. Why? Because shareholders are more interested in the bottom line.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2017, 01:16:50 pm
content: Quote from: KL27x on September 03, 2017, 02:06:58 amWhen I recently looked into rebuilding an old battery for a vintage laptop, it turned out that the cost of quality replacement cells actually exceeded the retail price of the battery pack back in the day ($129), and also exceeded the cost of a modern replacement battery pack. No doubt the manufacturer got a massive volume discount on cells, but I've come to appreciate that quality rechargeable batteries really do cost money, and that the prices charged for them aren't always rip-offs. (I think in small batteries they're often crazy, but in large packs like for laptops, they're not.)As for everything else you mentioned, other than the stockings, that's engineering down to a price, which isn't planned obsolescence. (As for cars, a) they're fashion items, and b) they are subject to the constant changes in regulation. I freely agree that the last 10 years have seen fairly little change in things like driveability/handling, though it must also be noted that cars now lastfarlonger than they used to. A modern car at 150K miles drives like a 1980 car at under 100K. What is an unfortunate consequence of all the airbags we have now is that they wreck the car, usually causing it to be totaled. But I guess it's worth it to save lives.)

author: skarecrow
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2017, 01:36:18 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on September 03, 2017, 01:16:50 pmSave lives?? That's arguable. I've never met anyone who claimed an airbag saved their life. The first time I ever wore a seatbelt while driving it definitely did save my life when I hit a divider doing 70mph. I got a tiny cut on my forehead from the steering wheel. If there had been an airbag in that car I would most likely have been killed by it. Everyone I know who has been in an accident where the airbags went off were injured by the airbags where they would have been completely fine if they never went off. In my opinion (do your own research and I'm sure you'll agree) airbags do much more harm than good and should be illegal, or at the very least optional when buying a car. I will never own a car with airbags.It is unfortunate that any accident where the airbags go off the car is usually considered a total loss. Another great reason to make them optional.

author: A Hellene
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2017, 02:31:46 pm
content: Correct. The legislative forced use of air-bags has nothing to do with saving lives; all it is about isthe additional taxationof the consumers in the name of security, as well as favouring thebanking sector(which selects and runs the politicians, in global scale) department calledinsurancein order for the latter ones to avoid paying if their automotive air-bag black-boxes have logged anything that invalidates their contracts.Don't be fooled by the countless 'statistically correct' reports for public consumption about 'life security': How many wars have been started in this very pretext, along with the rivers of wasted/stolen amounts of public wealth in the name of 'security' during the last century?The only practical purpose of air-bags is to be creating smiles out of some individuals stupidity:-George

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2017, 03:40:50 pm
content: :::sigh::: You'd think that an engineering forum would be full of people driven by facts, not conspiracy theories, but no...

author: mcinque
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 03, 2017, 04:10:54 pm
content: I think it's a matter of product obsolescence, serviceability, competition, time to market and, most of all, price.Many products become obsolete in few months and their value drops dramatically, so there isn't the need to make them durable: any repair would cost too much. Because of this, who needs to have them easily serviceable?Also, competitors offer similar products to yours at a similar price, so you have to be on the market asap, and durability tests adds months to product's release, and any "quality" component added increase the price. Consumer doesn't care/know the difference between Nichicon and CrapXcon, most of all think "it works the same, it's the same inside".Many years ago many product were highly priced because local production plants and workers, no or slow obsolescency, so they HAVE to be durable.Quote from: tooki on September 03, 2017, 03:40:50 pmme too tought so.Quote from: A Hellene on September 03, 2017, 02:31:46 pmI definitely DO NOT agree.They choose that way because saving lives costs less than hospital intensive care.The costs the state pays to keep alive (and possibly cure) a person with a severe head damage are really high (here 1 day in intensive care are at least + €1.800 per day) and weigth on all the social system. Consider a month in intensive care and you'll have € 54K charged on the local social system, only forone personseverely injuried. Consider that every day there aremultiple severe car accidentsand you'll realize that is not an additional taxation. And this if the person can be cured. If it becomes a disabled person the local system would have to pay for his aid for his entire life.Quote from: blueskull on August 30, 2017, 12:17:10 amThis is something similar to other stories I heard from Apple customers. It's a kind of politic that I'll never understand in Apple: they KNOW the product is in warrantybut they look for an excuseto avoid fixing the problem. Here in EU they have been forced by authorities to apply 2 years EU warranty: for many years they applied only 1 year warranty and refuse to repair anything older than that without Apple Care. I can't believe this is the way to make money and I can't realize how they have so many loyal customers.

author: mcinque
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 03, 2017, 04:28:05 pm
content: Quote from: A Hellene on September 03, 2017, 02:31:46 pmFake videos.In modern cars Airbags can't be released witout deceleration verified by a couple of G-sensors, specific deceleration angle and, most of all, engine on (and in the first video if you have alarm, hazard and horn turned on just in the moment of the fake explosion, it's crystal clear it's off).A kick cannot engage the airbag, and THAT isn't a real airbag explosion, which is much more violent and release a lot of smoke.Please, don't believe in that stories.

author: A Hellene
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2017, 04:29:31 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on September 03, 2017, 03:40:50 pmFacts? Conspiracy theories?Alright! Let's start from the basics:Quote from: American Heritage DictionaryQuote from: Concise Oxford English DictionaryQuestion:Can a fact be fabricated, or even slightly distorted in orer to help out some illegal agenda?Answer:Most of the times, according to Times Online!RegardingConspiracy theoriesI will just let the late George Carlin speak for me:Quote from:George CarlinQuestion:Is the statement 'Bankers ae rynning everything' a conspiracy theory, or a(n applied, if you like) conspiracy?Answer:What has been really happening to our world, since the last five millennia?-Part 2.What I am trying to say, dear tooki, is that it is up to the individual engineer/scientist/layman/etc. to verify every piece of information they receive; especially the life- or course-changing pieces of information for their validity before they take any actions.-George

author: mcinque
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 03, 2017, 04:45:01 pm
content: Quote from: A Hellene on September 03, 2017, 04:29:31 pmIndeed, but they have to be competent in the sector (i.e. a physician cannot verify or confute any structural engineering theory or experiment) and most important,they must not have any kind of bias, looking only at the dataMost of us can verify every piece of information only having the right school background, competence and culture about it. I cannot understand structural engineering (and many other subjects!!) and confute or verify any kind of eccentric theory about the twin towers collapse on 9/11.Let the "experts" do their jobs, we're gone on the moon with scientists and engineers and we're talking here on the Internet just because those "experts" have done their job well.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2017, 05:41:26 pm
content: Quote from: mcinque on September 03, 2017, 04:10:54 pmAnd looking at their reply to this, what I see is the classic "question everything" and "think for yourself" argument that sufferers of Dunning-Kruger tend to use to convince themselves they're smarter than others, when in fact a big part of actual intelligence is knowing when to defer to others, and how to evaluate sources.Quote from: mcinque on September 03, 2017, 04:10:54 pmHaving worked at Apple stores before, that's not how Apple operates, to be honest. The date of purchase is logged in their systems, and it absolutely is not a requirement to be the original owner. The only time you need proof of purchase is when the system was bought from a dealer, in which case Apple only knows when they sold it to the distributor, but not when it was sold to the end customer. Without documentation, you will get at minimum the 1 year manufacturer's warranty from the date it shipped to the dealer. (If AppleCare was purchased, it is logged in the system with the date of purchase from Apple or the dealer, and does not require any documentation at time of repair.)As for EU warranty: EU (and Swiss) law says theselleris responsible for the 2 year warranty. So if you buy from Apple directly, then Apple is responsible for the full 2 years. If you buy from a dealer, Apple is responsible for the 1 year manufacturer warranty, and then the dealer is responsible for the second year. THIS is what confuses customers who get turned away. (IMHO, the EU should just have mandated a 2 year manufacturer warranty to avoid this confusion.)So I'm not sure what's going on in this particular case, but I can say with confidence that we didn't hear the whole story.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2017, 05:46:27 pm
content: Quote from: mcinque on September 03, 2017, 04:28:05 pmYep. TV airbags inflate gently; real airbags use actual explosives to fully inflate (and deflate again!) in a fraction of a second. The ECU only deploys them in serious crashes; in low-speed crashes the airbag could cause more damage than it prevents. But when they do deploy, they're cushioning the driver from catastrophic injury; a broken nose is far preferable to being dead.

author: skarecrow
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2017, 06:26:13 pm
content: Quote from: mcinque on September 03, 2017, 04:10:54 pmBut you're forgetting the important fact that airbags cause more injuries than they prevent. That ends up costing a lot MORE. They raise insurance rates because in almost every accident where they go off the vehicle is considered a total loss, regardless of how much actual damage there is to it. I tow cars for a living, and have seen lots of cars with barely noticeable damage, but were totalled because of the airbags.Another bad thing about airbags is the false sense of security they give some drivers. They think since their car has 84 airbags they are safer than the car with only 12, or 0 airbags. This leads to more careless driving due to people assuming their airbags will make everything alright.Has there ever been a single case where an airbag has been proven to have saved a life? I know there's many cases of airbags killing people.Sorry to get off topic, what were we talking about again?Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2017, 06:34:47 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on September 03, 2017, 05:46:27 pmI fell flat on my face on Friday and did that to mine. There were a few minutes there when I might well have disagreed with you on that point!

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 03, 2017, 08:15:54 pm
content: Quote from: skarecrow on September 03, 2017, 01:36:18 pmNot arguable at all. Having being in the Fire services, I've lost count at the number of motor vehicle crashes I attended (both fatal and non-fatal). In almost all crashes where the vehicle was fitted with an airbag, this significantly reduced the amount of trauma to the head and neck and reduced the level of crush injury. They most certainly do save lives, just as much as the seat belt does.There is only 1 crash in Australia I am aware of where a deployed airbag actually resulted in the death of a motorist and that was due to a fault from manufacturing. Those airbags were recalled however the owner ignored the recall and continued to drive the vehicle with the faulty bag. During the crash a small metallic projectile went through his neck.Combined I have 14 years in the emergency services and have attended more serious crashes than you have had birthdays. To say that airbags don't save lives, you must be living in fantasy land.Quote from: A Hellene on September 03, 2017, 02:31:46 pmJust in case anyone didn't realise the obvious, those videos are fake. Contrary to popular belief, airbags aren't deployed by a single sensor in the bumper. For an airbag to deploy, readings are monitored from a number of different sensors around the vehicle including accelerometers generally inside the cabin, engine bay or under the driver's seat. A "trip" from one sensor isn't enough to deploy air bags (that's why they don't go off in low-speed, low-impact collisions) and certainly an old lady's handbag won't do it either.

author: skarecrow
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2017, 09:16:53 pm
content: Quote from: Halcyon on September 03, 2017, 08:15:54 pmAfter towing thousands of crashed cars I can tell you with 100% certainty that airbags often DO go off in low speed low impact collisions. Not every time, and I agree some little old lady isn't gonna set one off by smacking the bumper.Maybe you have seen a few cases where an airbag helped someone, but for each of those cases there's 100 where someone got hurt by the airbag where they would have been completely fine without it. You can get the airbag option in your car if you believe in them, but I'll buy my car without any. It should be the buyers choice.Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 03, 2017, 09:51:56 pm
content: Quote from: skarecrow on September 03, 2017, 09:16:53 pmI was generalising. The term "low speed" is arbitrary which I why I also clarified it with "low impact". Air bags aren't designed for low speed impacts but they can deploy depending on the amount of deceleration involved. I have seen people killed in relatively "low speed" collisions as well.The term "hurt" is arbitrary as well. Almost every collision involves some kind of injury, even if it's a sore neck the next day (which is very very common). People also tend to exaggerate their injuries, especially minor ones, as a towwie, you would have seen that time and time again. Does it mean the air bag is unsafe? Not at all. I would much rather a fractured nose or some bruising if it meant I escaped brain and neck injuries.Thankfully, air bags are in pretty much every car in Australia and for good reason. Fatalities on our roads are among the lowest in the world and most of them are attributed to a combination of inattentiveness (caused by fatigue or being distracted), speed and alcohol/drugs, not air bag deployments.

author: A Hellene
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2017, 03:54:16 am
content: Dear EEVBlog fellows, I can see your point of view; and I respect that.Well, I do not know if these videos, above, are fake or not; I thought it was clear that their posting was intended to provoke hilarity!Well, yes, I am aware of the fact that air-bags are making use of explosive charges for fast inflation. Yet, I can also remember that since before 2000, over here where I live, there was a secondary industry beginning to thrive at the car workshops because the owners of new cars of that era were asking their mechanics to be disabling their air-bags because these damned things were spontaneously going off even at the slightest bump (during parking, for example), while that experience was far from pleasant for them and the replacement of those new additions to their cars was quite costly.Now, my question is: does the fact that because every society has its fair share of (uncultivated mostly) idiots mean that everything should be mandatorily dumbed-down to their level for everyone? What will be enforced next? Mandatory diapers for everyone who dares to walk in public?So, yes, in my humble opinion air-bags (along with any other, worthless or not, 'mandatory' nonsense) should be discretional and not enforced to the people of every place in our world by the governmental puppets of theglobal elite.-George

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2017, 04:11:23 am
content: You should go live somewhere nice, without the global elite controlling everything. Try Somalia. I'm sure you'd love it.

author: A Hellene
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2017, 05:26:33 am
content: Quote from: Monkeh on September 04, 2017, 04:11:23 amAh! This was a nice, Orwellian suggestion (freedom bad, servitude good)!Thank you for your concern...<OFF_TOPIC>It seems that you may be forgetting that I live in the land where my ancestors have been living for tens of thousands of years (or even more, sincethe Archanthropus of Petralona cave in Chalkidiki, excavated by Aris Poulianos in 1960, has been assessed to be 740,000 years old while his tomb was not only found to have his weapons and his tools beside of him but was also decorated with flowers, according to a live recording of Poulianos speech in the eighties I have in my possession and I am happily willing to share with everyone).</OFF_TOPIC>-George

author: Assafl
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2017, 07:42:29 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on September 03, 2017, 06:46:16 amQuality has not dropped. Prices have dropped considerably (at the demand of customers). A $6000 Microwave oven (50-60's) is now less than 100$. I looked up Microwaves at Sears and the lowest I found was $70 (US).http://www.sears.com/kenmore-p90d23ap-wjs-0.9-cu-ft-microwave-oven/p-02073773000P?plpSellerId=Sears&prdNo=4&blockNo=4&blockType=G4$70 Includes a 900W Magnetron (probably not the 2M253 - more the low end 2M240 series...), a 2100V 900W transformer, a capacitor, a PCB with a microcontroller and display, safety latches, a lamp, and at least two motors (magnetron fan and stirrer motor). Oh and packaging and the logistics of getting it to 1000 stores....Now 2M240H is probably the (or one of the) cheapest Magnetrons around. So let's say the Kenmore Oven died. Try to replace the Magnetron - on eBay they are about 70$ new with shipping. (There are used ones for less - but who knows how many of their 2000 hours is left? if at all...). So buy a new oven. It is cheaper.If you buy a high end Microwave, you will find a 2M253 tube in it, better software (better control over the tube), and you will pay 100$ for the difference. Magnetron costs the same - makes a bit more sense to repair it. But not a lot more sense...A Miele Microwave Oven starts at about $999 (https://www.appliancesconnection.com/miele-m6040sc.html?ref=TRJC). If the Magnetron dies - it is obviously good economy to replace it. Miele also keeps spare parts for most of their products for quite a few years (like Sears used to do).Now the question for YOU: Are you willing to part with $999 to get this "built in longevity" you seem to long for, for what is basically a commodity device (same magnetron, same transformer, same capacitor)....NB - Yes - the Miele is better. My parent's Miele has been running straight for 15 years. The low voltage power supply uses a high quality Myrrah encapsulated transformer. The racks and heaters are super quality. But you could have replaced a Kenmore every year and still had spare change....QuoteThat is not true by any stretch. Not one. I remember our first microwave oven. A huge mid 70's era analog timer White Westinghouse with faux wood inlay. It buzzed and hummed. It made clicking sounds. It had a low efficiency magnetron. Because of that it had a very loud fan.It did not have a turntable so food would come out partially boiling partially cold. At age 10 I'd turntable it myself by moving the food inside. It was terrible even in comparison to the cheapest 70$ Kenmore.It did last longer though, which was a shame (we eventually threw it out)...

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 04, 2017, 08:00:40 am
content: Quote from: Assafl on September 04, 2017, 07:42:29 amIn what wayisn'tthat statement true? You can't tell me that your cheap, won-hung-lo Chinese bucket of crap product, slapped together using any old components doesn't demonstrate a loss in quality? Of course it does and it's driven by market demand.Many consumers don't care how long the product lasts, because it's "cheap", just throw it out, buy a new one.Then there are consumers like myself that do their homework and buy the best I can afford in order to get a quality product with long service life (yes, they do still exist).Back "in the day" you had less choice and those who could afford luxuries such as televisions and dishwashers were generally pretty well off. There was no popping down to K-Mart/Costco/Walmart to buy a $10 kettle. Back then, many manufacturers took pride in their products and were tested well beyond their design limits. Quality that lasted was an advertising point. These days, you hardly see that mentioned, rather it's about how many pixels you can cram onto a display or how curvy the edges are.

author: Assafl
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2017, 08:10:44 am
content: Quote from: A Hellene on September 04, 2017, 03:54:16 amAny attempt to look at public safety (or public health issues) through any tool lens than safety statistics (or epidemiological studies) is misleading at best.One can incorporate anecdotal evidence as part of a statistical study - but one cannot use a single (or a million) anecdotes to infer causality (or even a statistical relationship).There is a new anti flea (anti parasite) chew tabs for dogs called Bravecto. The Web is littered with stories of dogs that chewed the tablet and died. Of cancer, of fatigue, of kidney failure. A perfectly healthy 7 year old dog takes the pill and dies a few days or weeks later. 1000's of cases. But 34,000,000 pills we consumed by dogs in the same period.Now comes epidemiology into this: Are the statistics for the death cases different than for the general population? If so - at best it is a warning; worst - make it a Toxica kind of medicine or take it off the shelf.Loo at the flip side: If after taking the pill 0 (zero) dogs would die - for as long as they take the pill - would Merck not sell it as the fountain-of-youth-pill? Daring humans would chomp down on it. Never die and (as a side benefit) no fleas!Same for car safety. Someone, in some safety institute owned by insurance companies, is looking at the numbers and balancing 100 dead and 150 injured vs. 125 dead and 75 injured. At that point all he does is adjust the premiums. Suddenly all cars have safety belts (or risk being uninsurable). Look ma - no cabal; no cartel; no conspiracy. Nada. Just statistics with the public's (and the courts) aversion to senseless deaths.And sometimes they get it wrong (like Vioxx, like the safety of DDT, dietary pills, lead poisoning, sugar vs fat, etc.). It always comes out. Always. Statistics always - always(!) wins.

author: Assafl
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2017, 08:21:39 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on September 04, 2017, 08:00:40 amIt is better because the 2M240 Magnetron is better than any magnetron that existed in the 70s. By definition it is better. The technology is better. The electronic controls are better than the analog timer. Vastly better control of the heating cycle. Even for the cheapest ovens.And the food comes out more evenly cooked than in the 70's. I was there. You probably were not.Your perception of quality should be aligned to a price point. Want an oven that costs less than spare parts? Don't expect to fix it, and don't expect any of the components to be of a very high quality. If you expect your 70$ oven to be serviced like a Mercedes with a customer lounge that serves free coffee and internet an biscuits - that is a problem with your expectations.When you buy a Miele you get the same technology. But instead of a Nylon plastic latch (has to fit a 70$ price tag) - you get a stainless steel one with a ball bearing (which has to fit a 1000$ budget).The plastic latch makes you angry when it fails? Buy a Gaggenau or a Miele. Hate the 1000$ price tag? Pay for a $250 model. There is still some plastic in it. But less.There are options today. But you are trying to fault the manufacturers for targeting people who can only afford a 70$ microwave oven (perhaps a single mother holding two jobs). That is IMHO - mean.To me what is perplexing is how the BOM for a 70$ microwave oven looks like. Is there a profit (if so it is tiny by the mere cost of the appliance)? How do they do it?

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 04, 2017, 08:28:22 am
content: You're missing my point, I said from the beginning while technology has improved, quality has fallen. Your microwave from the 70's worked as it was designed, because that was the technology then. I bet it lasted for decades.Buy a cheap microwave these days and it might last a year, maybe.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2017, 08:39:05 am
content: Except that's not true. Microwaves last just fine.What really don't seem to last as long, anecdotally, are washing machines. But even in these, I don't have any data to indicate that they actually fail more, in the field, than machines built 10, 20, or 40 years ago.As I mentioned earlier, what we forget is that in the past, it was far more common to have the repairman come by. So yes, the machine may have "lasted" longer but it needed a lot more maintenance, which wasn't free.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 04, 2017, 08:55:26 am
content: Quote from: tooki on September 04, 2017, 08:39:05 amExcept that itistrue. Maybe not in your experience but I've certainly seen cheap microwaves fail long before they "should" have. Whether it be a switch, a capacitor, the keypad or the latch mechanism, it's still a failure.

author: Assafl
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2017, 11:21:24 am
content: Quote from: tooki on September 04, 2017, 08:39:05 am+1I have anecdotal sample point: a friend who's cheap microwave keeps on failing. It did not fail once in the years before the kids became old enough to use the thing. Then the kids started turning it on without a significant load (i.e. a piece of stale bread, or even empty) and their grandmother put stuff in it in metal bowls.Also, the kids yank on the door handle, which has a plastic latch. The latch, being plastic in substance and plasticky in attitude, did not breakthe spring did. So he wound one of the loops of the spring onto the latch and it works now. Obviously, He has a stash of high voltage fuses...In the old days, you wouldn't let young kids near the expensive microwave oven...QuoteI see people moving their washing machines without affixing the stabilizer bars. That would ruin the heck out of a machine.The Idiot service technician that came to install ours (have to use one for the warrantee) - wanted to throw our stabilizers to the trash (even though Miele have special slots for them on the back). dis-service...Go figure why they fail so much...

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2017, 05:40:32 pm
content: Quote from: Assafl on September 04, 2017, 07:42:29 amOnde of the items I forgot to mention before: our $70 GE microwave oven has been going on for 11 years without any problems at all.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2017, 06:15:15 pm
content: Will add I have a KIC ( affectionately the name here is otherwise known as K@k in Case) microwave that dates from the 1980's, in a fetching beige colour scheme. Turntable it does not have, it has a stirrer in the antenna aperture, and had a basic power level and run back timer till they failed, which was replaced with a push button and an industrial time delay relay instead to give a fixed 2 minute cycle. Lamp I have replaced a few, but did not bother with thew last one when it died, even though I have plenty of spare ones from other failed microwaves.It has outlasted many others, and I bought it for $3 at auction years ago. While I have spare 2M240 magnetrons ( from the other microwaves, the ones that did not get turned into fridge magnets) in various mounting patterns, I still have the original magnetron, diode and capacitor in it, plus the original fan.Sad thing is that the magnetron is almost the cost of a new microwave, the HV fuse is a tenth of the price, the transformer is $2 less than a new one and the membrane keyboards are often no longer available as spares from the agents, let alone as pattern parts. Dead microwaves I tend to keep the transformer, fuse and magnetron, along with the HV capacitor, diode and fuse along with the lamp and wiring loom and switches, as spares for others where those occasionally fail. They generally either rust out or have a transformer or magnetron go short, so spares from deceased donors will give another year of operation, and the turntable and motors are often interchangeable, though you have to be aware of either 36VAC or 220VAC turntable motors, and the fan being used as autotransformer for the 36VAC ones. Mains fuses I keep a box of each size ceramic fuse, in 10A rating, as failing door switches ( or slamming the door too hard) will blow them.

author: The Soulman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2017, 06:25:02 pm
content: My cheapy (40 euro) two dial microwave is still working fine after eight years, doesn't get used much tho.On the other hand my 1000+ euro Miele refrigerator literally blew up, of course just after the warranty expired.Called Miele and they send a repairman his conclusion: it's beyond repair.He called to the head office and then said, bad news this model is out of stock.He could get me a newer and fancier model the same week, but it would cost money.Only the regular fee for transport/placement/installment.Very nice service, another bonus when paying premium for a premium brand, they have a reputation to maintain

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2017, 08:39:06 pm
content: QuoteEven since the industrial revolution, we have the capability to incredible levels of shelter, food, and cable TV/internet (life and passification) to a massive percentage of the worlds increasingly massive population.The problem with things lasting forever is that eventually people will stop having to buy things. If people stop buying things, there's no incentive to make them. Then the factories close. The move towards disposability was a carefully calculated one. The economics of disposability became a science in itself, following the Great Depression.To avoid the association with planned failure, a large focus has been placed on two things.. 1. esthetics 2. mandated safety/environmental issue. Anything which you want to regulate, just call it a safety/environmental issue, and you can manipulate it to hearts content with enough lobbyist money.Li ion safety issue is one example. It is a real issue, but it is intentionally sensationalized. I have failed to find a single death related to li ion batteries, but exploding batteries are all ober the news, all the time. Cost samsung billions.

author: Tomorokoshi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2017, 09:57:32 pm
content: Quote from: KL27x on September 04, 2017, 08:39:06 pmI don't know the data either way. However, let's take that at face value. It may be that safety and industrial standards already in place caused for the design and manufacture of the parts, along with the design and manufacture of how they are integrated into the products, to limit the extent of damage done when they failed.One could also make the claim that there are very few injuries due to coming in contact with or failure of the electrical power distribution system, and therefore the 1000 pages of the NEC (National Electric Code) are an overwrought, expensive burden.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 04, 2017, 11:54:37 pm
content: Quote from: KL27x on September 04, 2017, 08:39:06 pmNot just safety, but it seems that batteries are yet another product where quality has fallen (but technology has improved). Sure, we have larger capacity batteries now, but I don't think it's a coincidence that my old Nokia BPS-2 Li-Po batteries (those that were used in the 6xxx series phones) still have some capacity left, when a 5 year old battery no longer holds a charge. I suppose you could argue that the Nokia's only needed charging every few days compared to every night like modern smart phones (or several times a day if you own an iPhone) ;-)Back then, those who had mobile phones generally held onto them for several years. I remember I probably used a Nokia 5110 for 3 or 4 years before I got a new one. These days, people buy (or even "rent") new smart phones from their carriers every 12 months. Who cares if the battery dies after a year or two?

author: Quarlo Klobrigney
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2017, 11:59:10 pm
content: "At Zenith, the quality goes in, before the name goes on"I still own TV's from the 50's and radios from the 30's made by them.Thank goodness I have my pair of HD sunglasses to see the daylight between then and now comparing apples to er.. tangelos.

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 05, 2017, 12:46:36 am
content: http://content.time.com/time/business/article/0,8599,1914367,00.htmlWhen things last too long.