Siglent SDS1204X-E vs Rigol MSO5000 - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: Electro Fan
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2019, 01:43:51 am
content: (Sorry if this has already been discussed in another thread but if it has I haven’t found it with search. I know there are some Siglent threads and many Rigol threads, I just haven't seen this particular question discussed.)Setting aside bandwidth and price are there any reasons to prefer the Siglent SDS1204X-E over a 4 channel Rigol MSO5000?

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2019, 01:51:55 am
content: Only one, SDS1204X-E is a more mature product. Display issues are none too, you may have seen some commenting in the dim 5000 display.Otherwise the 5000 out specs it in sampling rate and memory depth.

author: mroek
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2019, 08:18:57 am
content: At this point I guess the firmware of the Siglent is also more mature. The MSO5000 seems to have a quite large number of bugs at this time (Dave even made a separate and quite long video demonstrating lots of bugs).

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2019, 09:25:07 am
content: New Rigol MSO5000 firmware is due any day now (according to Rigol).This is an important product and they're taking a long time to release the first update, I'm guessing they're taking it seriously.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2019, 10:00:18 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on February 27, 2019, 09:25:07 amIf they had taken it seriously they wouldn't have released it with so many bugs. Look at their other higher end scope like the DS2000 and DS4000 series. It has taken them years to get the firmware to some kind of acceptable level.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2019, 11:05:30 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on February 27, 2019, 10:00:18 amI'm guessing you've never had a boss who wanted a product out yesterday.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2019, 11:07:23 am
content: That is no excuse to put a half assed product out. Anyway, it seems Siglent is doing quite well nowadays also with the rebadging done by other brands.

author: BillB
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 27, 2019, 12:08:30 pm
content: Seems odd to me to cross-shop these models?

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2019, 12:22:18 pm
content: Quote from: BillB on February 27, 2019, 12:08:30 pmI guess the list price is quite similar.Quote from: nctnico on February 27, 2019, 11:07:23 amTrue, but it's not the world we live in. You want a finished product? Spend more and buy R&S or something like that.Quote from: nctnico on February 27, 2019, 11:07:23 amYou mean they're no longer sending out little packets of capacitors to customers so they can solder them to the PCB to make their 'scope work?Right now? I'd wait a couple of weeks for the promised Rigol firmware and see what happens. With a decent firmware the MSO5000 is alotmore oscilloscope than the Siglent. You get double the bandwidth, four times the sample rate, monstrous amounts of memory, etc.(assuming you know how to use telnet/vi to unlock all the features)

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2019, 01:31:21 pm
content: The firmware has arrived (apparently):https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hacking-the-rigol-mso5000-series-oscilloscopes/msg2228568/#msg2228568

author: BillB
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 27, 2019, 01:59:53 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on February 27, 2019, 12:22:18 pm$2700 vs $759? (Saelig)

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2019, 03:24:07 pm
content: Quote from: BillB on February 27, 2019, 01:59:53 pmAn MSO5000 can be had for under $1000.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2019, 08:27:36 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on February 27, 2019, 12:22:18 pmYes well, there seem to be some questions about 5000 10x probe step response too.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2019, 08:43:00 pm
content: Nobody claimed either choice is the best money can buy.

author: NoisyBoy
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2019, 08:56:46 pm
content: The OP had mentioned to set aside bandwidth and price in the initial posting, but I agree that price should be a factor. If we are comparing a SDS1204X-E instead of a SDS1104X-E to the Rigol, then one could reasonably assume that he was not interested in a hacked scope, and it is fair to compare it to a MSO5204 (200MHz and 4-channel) for a apple-to-apple comparison, which is $2699 rather than the <$1000 price tag.I would say the Siglent may win at screen brightness/contrast, also serial decoding is free on the Siglent vs. a pricey upgrade on the Rigol. If those are important, it will push the price of the Rigol to $3400 with the software bundle.At that price point, the Rigol has a different class of challenger that are far more capable than the SDS1000X-E series Siglent.Now if price is truly not a factor at all, I would lean towards Keysight, RS, and Tek rather than the Rigol. I have been using Keysight/Agilent exclusively so far, and the professionalism of their support organization is second to none and I have been extremely satisfied with them, knowing that my equipment will be supported, and parts available, for 15+ years. I don't have experience with Siglent and Rigol, so I cannot comment about them, if they are as good, then that would be a game changer.Quote from: Fungus on February 27, 2019, 03:24:07 pm

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2019, 09:49:02 pm
content: QuoteIn my opinion: No.7" Display (800x480) vs. 9" (1024x600)up to 100000 wfms/s vs 500000 (measured) (both in normal mode)14 Mpts Memory vs 100Mpts (200Mpts opt)1GSa/s vs 8GSa/sGood math functions vs much more math functions, up to 4 functions viewable at the same time1Ch AWG option with additional hardware needed vs 2Ch AWG option without additional hardware neededEtc., etc. …..Benefit of the siglent is the Eres function, the brighter display and included instead optional decoding functions.I like the siglent, it´s worth it´s money for sure.But better as the 5000...I don´t think so.When rigol takes it serious on debugging all known issues plus adding some more (missing) features, it can´t be beaten in it´s priceclass and above.I got the siglent 1104X-E, it´s a best choice for the money and surely, the 1204 will be it too (200Mhz !!!).But all in all no competition to the MSO5000.IMHO, that´s understand.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2019, 03:11:33 pm
content: Rigol released a new firmware today. Let's see what happens.

author: Electro Fan
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 12, 2019, 06:47:06 pm
content: Given the new Rigol firmware and a little more time with the MSO5000, any new thoughts on how these two compare?

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 12, 2019, 09:32:45 pm
content: Even now it´s , to be honest, no comparison between the two.Better compare the siglent with the DS1000Z series and in my opinion the siglent is "better" against.As I wrote before, for it´s money the siglent is hard to beat.The 100Mhz model cost nearly the half of the MSO5000 (and should be hackable to 200Mhz).If the 7" Display is no problem for You, if You don´t need zone trigger, touchdisplay, built-in awg, 4 math traces displaying at the same time, HDMI Output, power analyzing, waste of samples per second, waste of memory, then go for the siglent.Why spending more money for things you don´t need.Main reason for me to buy the 5000 ( and selling the siglent)was the bigger display.If rigol fix the bugs and add some goodies, I´ll be happy with it.But that wasn´t the reason I bought it.

author: jemangedeslolos
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 18, 2019, 08:10:01 am
content: Hello,I have the exact same question.I wanted to buy a SDS1104X-E but the new MSO5074 has incredible features for the price (after the hack).But I was disapointed by Rigol in terms of responsiveness, I find the user interface very slow.And that seems to be still the case on the MSO5000....but it has bigger screen and 4 channels with separated control.I don't know what to do

author: Old Printer
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 18, 2019, 12:58:18 pm
content: Quote from: jemangedeslolos on April 18, 2019, 08:10:01 amI was very much tempted by the 5000 as well. HDMI - I love big screens like in 25". I would prefer the 4 individual channel controls. Not sure I would ever use the other pluses. I have a SDS 1104X-E arriving tomorrow. I am just a beginning hobbyist 3 years into this and the extra $500 is a good bit of money to me. Taking a chance the Siglent WiFi will be close enough to the HDMI for my use. We shall see. Anyway, that's how I made my choice, I felt it was time for my first "real" DSO after a couple old TEK's and an Analog Discovery 2.

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 18, 2019, 05:16:48 pm
content: QuoteCan´t confirm this, it´s acting "normal" (whatever normal means).

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 18, 2019, 05:40:26 pm
content: Quote from: jemangedeslolos on April 18, 2019, 08:10:01 amThe DS1000Z series indeed has a somewhat sluggish user interface. But where did you get the impression/information that the MSO5000 is similar? It's an entirely different architecture, and I don't recall seeing any complaints about the responsiveness.

author: jemangedeslolos
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 19, 2019, 07:41:04 am
content: It's a general impression that I have after seeing some videos.For example, videos from dave about MSO5000 bugs show a very slow touchscreen and sorts of lag when he turns the timebase knob.Comparing to the Keysight MSOX3054, the MSO5000 seems to be very slow.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 19, 2019, 07:48:17 am
content: Have a look at this vid I did showing the SDS1104X-E webserver in action and you'll see some small latency on the 2nd and 3rd displays but nothing on the scope.BTW, probes used and all connected to the probe comp 3V 1KHz output were 1x, 10x, 100x and 1000x.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 19, 2019, 01:26:26 pm
content: Quote from: jemangedeslolos on April 19, 2019, 07:41:04 amYou mean a $12,000 'scope is faster than a $1,000 'scope?

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 19, 2019, 01:28:39 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on April 19, 2019, 07:48:17 amThere's a very visible delay on the webserver.At least it's not on the 'scope. We dodged a bullet there.

author: Old Printer
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 19, 2019, 02:09:59 pm
content: Thanks Tautech. My 1104x-e is on the truck for delivery today, as is a T Link WiFi dongle. This is my first DSO outside of an Analog Discovery so there won't be any in depth revelations forthcomingI expect to set it up on my bench with the 25" monitor at the back of the bench where it always is. My expectation is to look at the scope screen while adjusting settings, then look up at the monitor, assuming there is something going on. The small latency, aka the very visible delay, that I saw on your YT demo seems very tolerable at this point, for my use. We shall see.

author: jemangedeslolos
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 19, 2019, 04:55:53 pm
content: I know it is a little unfair...but not so unfair regarding the price range of the MSO5000 family.Comparing to a R&S RTB2004 or a Keysight MSO2000, videos gives me the impression of some sort of lag when playing with vertical and horizontal knobs.the only thing that will definitely make me buy the Rigol is that you can hack it.Without that "feature" the top end version of the MSO5000 is overpriced IMHO.

author: luma
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 19, 2019, 05:29:01 pm
content: Quote from: jemangedeslolos on April 19, 2019, 07:41:04 amYou’re comparing a $900 scope to a $10,000 scope. It’s expected there might be some performance difference.

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 19, 2019, 06:02:07 pm
content: QuoteQuoteInreal, the mso5000 doesn´t seem to be "slower" than other comparable ones - yes there is a lag by turning the knobs or zoom in/out.But I want to have a look on a stable signal so I do the adjustments and have a look on it without further playing around on the knobs/display, so it doesn´t matter if there was a lag while adjusting the time/voltage.

author: jemangedeslolos
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 19, 2019, 07:53:54 pm
content: To be clear, I magnified the problem but the Rigol MSO5000 is not a 1000$ scope.A full featured MSO5000 is not so cheap. It is brand new with tons of processing power and lags like a Owon XDS3000I have nothing against Rigol, im a little surprised by this regarding the fantastic specs.I love when a UI is responsive, I play very often with zoom and horizontal knob and I find that lag is annoying, that's all.I will buy one MSO5074 next week so im not declaring a war against Rigol or their fanboys

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 19, 2019, 09:01:44 pm
content: I´m not a "fanboy" of rigol...In general you could have a different point of view as other people without being a fanboy….QuoteSure it is, all the features/bandwith/memory are already implemented by the price of 1000$/€, they´re only locked by software.The hardware is a 1000 buck thing, you can see it at the display, at the noisy fan, at the missing 50Ohm Input, at the missing external trigger Input...They put the Ultra-Vision II technology as cheap as possible into a low-cost scope.Result is an excellent bang for bucks scope - for 1000 bucks.Even if this would cost double, it still can compete to other brands - but in one thing I´m with you:I would never spend 5000 bucks for it, always in mind there is a R&S RTB scope at this price avaible.Not meaning the lag-thing, even much more expensive scope do have it and it doesn´t worrying me.No, the "power of ten" is still ruling in the class of 2500 bucks and above scopes.If I had 3000 to spend for a scope, I wouldn´t go for any rigol model yet.But for 1000...2000 I´ll go for and done it.

author: jemangedeslolos
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 20, 2019, 07:40:32 am
content: QuoteI know that. But it's exactly the same with almost all scope, spectrum analyser, arbitrary waveform generator, etc etc manufacturers.Like you said, a full featured MSO5000 is in the same price range than R&S RTB2000 or the old Keysight MSO x 2000A so Im not comparing carrot to apple.Look at the responsiness of the UI :There is no lag and I don't think there is more processing power in the Agilent/keysightIMHO, the lag in the Rigol is relative to software implementation but not hardware.And with a better screen or a quieter fan, the scope will not cost twice as much.It is a shame because for 100 bucks more, I would buy one without thinking.If the RTB2000 was hackable, I seriously considering the R&S.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 20, 2019, 08:05:46 am
content: Quote from: jemangedeslolos on April 20, 2019, 07:40:32 amIf R&S were hackable, they couldn't make them fast enough...But it is not and Rigol is.Even with Rigol unrealistic prices, there is still 500-600€ difference to fully loaded R&S 2000.That buys you half the lab on a shoestring.And Keysight 2000 series is HORRIBLE scope compared to, well, anything.

author: tv84
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 20, 2019, 09:23:40 am
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on April 20, 2019, 08:05:46 amI have a slightly different opinion.I think R&S buyers don't need it hackable.The Rigol ones expect it to be hackable...It's 2 different mindsets but, with some effort, all can be hacked.

author: plurn
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 20, 2019, 10:57:44 am
content: Quote from: NoisyBoy on February 27, 2019, 08:56:46 pmThat 15 year parts availability would likely apply for Keysight's high end gear, but not certain that 15 year parts availability would be the case for the low end Keysight oscilloscopes. The service guide for the Keysight InfiniiVision 1000 X-Series Oscilloscopes says this:"5 Replacing AssembliesThe service policy for all 1000 X-Series oscilloscopes is unit replacement, so there are no instructions for replacing internal assemblies in this service guide.6 Replaceable PartsBecause the service policy for 1000 X-Series oscilloscopes is unit replacement, no replaceable parts are available for the Keysight 1000 X-Series oscilloscopes."http://literature.cdn.keysight.com/litweb/pdf/54612-97012.pdfOnce the 3 year warranty expires, I expect any repair from Keysight will involve paying for a full replacement, or perhaps a discount on a new model if they are feeling generous? Just making assumptions there so I could be completely wrong. Also I acknowledge that these low end oscilloscopes were probably not the ones you were referring to.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 20, 2019, 01:37:08 pm
content: You can have an extended warranty from Keysight which includes free repairs. AFAIK you can get this extended warranty even for equipment you bought used but I'd expect you have to send it in for calibration first so Keysight can check it.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 20, 2019, 02:00:53 pm
content: There is also no repair or spare parts except unit replacement for Keysight 3000 series..