Agilent E8357A - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 29, 2022, 06:33:44 pm
content: I had asked Keysight about obtaining a key for an old E8357A PNA to extend its range to 9GHz. This is a software only upgrade and they no longer offer it. Doing a Google search brought me here. Any chance to enable it?

author: PA0PBZ
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 29, 2022, 07:55:51 pm
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on October 29, 2022, 06:33:44 pmCan you give me the HOSTID of the instrument and the option ID? If you have any active upgrades it would be helpful to give me the key for those too.Either here or PM will do.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 29, 2022, 08:23:56 pm
content: PM sent.

author: tv84
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2022, 05:29:19 pm
content: ForAgilent/Keysight PNA N5224Aand possibly other PNAs:License format example:FEATURE000agilent 1.0 permanent uncounted 123456789012 HOSTID=PNAID=12345678

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2022, 08:57:42 pm
content: First, I want to say I appreciate all the help I have received from this group.I suspect there is more to this range upgrade than what information I could come up with.Agilent paper 9018-40582 Extended Frequency Range Upgrade Kits,t talks about the 1F6 to 1F9 upgrade to change the 8357A to the 58A. I could not get this to work making the license directly or following their guide using the tools to change the product model. Using the above codes does however allow me to create a key for the 010 time domain option. I tried out the feature and it does seem to work.The user manual talks about an option 009 that was also available for the 8357A that would extend the frequency as well. I can create the key and it does not throw an error, however the PNA does not report it was added and is still limited to the original 6GHz range.The installation note 9018-40582 was released on November of 2001. I am running the last release of the firmware that supported Windows 2000 which was from September of 2005. I would assume this firmware would support the range upgrade but it seems I am missing something.

author: TheSteve
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 30, 2022, 09:05:52 pm
content: Probably worth starting a new thread to discuss and keep this for the N1996A which is a totally different machine. Would keep the info easier to find down the road.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2022, 12:28:48 am
content: This is what I had mentioned. Note how they actually changed the HOSTID. There is no mention about this for mine, however see the note about needing new license keys for previously installed options. This would make sense if the hostid were changed but they never have you key that in with their Option Enable software.

author: PA0PBZ
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2022, 09:48:04 am
content: So it uses a HOSTID that is not stored on the instrument? That's scaryHere is (was) the utility:https://web.archive.org/web/20150301225912/http://na.support.keysight.com:80/pna/upgrades.htmlhostid.cgi is long gone of course...https://na.support.keysight.com/cgi-bin/hostid.cgi?Model=E8357A&Serial=Enter+serial+number

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2022, 01:10:19 pm
content: That explains the note about having to recreate the other keys. So they use the model/SN to create a new host. They would create a new key based on that hostid and supply a new gen.lic. Once installed, then you had to correct that SN/PN. The PNA includes a utility "Option Data Repair" that you use to change the model and serial number, but not the host.Rube Goldberg must have spent some time at Agilent.Hard to believe that the frequency range option was an afterthought. The hardware was all there. Maybe 20+ years ago, there was a big difference in cost between the 6&9GHz and the loss of revenue if customers were to circumvent their procedure. Funny as I am playing around with a $120 VNA with a 9.3GHz top end.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 03, 2022, 12:37:17 pm
content: I posted an update on the groups.io. Going through the wayback, they did have some of this site archived with some bit of the generator. It would throw up a that the serial number was invalid. The earliest they went back was 2014 and the PNA was already listed as obsolete.

author: PA0PBZ
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 06, 2022, 09:46:49 am
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on November 03, 2022, 12:37:17 pmI had a look and it doesn't point to the hostid.cgi but to a login.cgi:https://web.archive.org/web/20160523001939/http://na.support.keysight.com:80/cgi-bin/login.cgiWhy it gives "An invalid serial number was entered!" I don't know, I guess something to do with the way the crawler works.

author: tv84
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 06, 2022, 10:10:03 am
content: Is there any forum member that went through thisHostID migration pathof aN1996AE8357A ?If we get an example, it may help a lot, even without the .cgi.

author: PA0PBZ
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 06, 2022, 10:16:56 am
content: Quote from: tv84 on November 06, 2022, 10:10:03 amI know it's the wrong thread, but this is about the E8357A, not the N1996A.

author: tv84
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 06, 2022, 10:30:51 am
content: Quote from: PA0PBZ on November 06, 2022, 10:16:56 amoopss... then we should not be fueling this OT. We should do as Steve asked, create new thread.

author: PA0PBZ
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 06, 2022, 10:43:32 am
content: I agree, I wonder if a mod could move everything starting with #49 to a new E8357A thread.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 06, 2022, 02:57:05 pm
content: I assume Steve had already put in a request to have them moved. After your posts, I have also requested it.When using their Option Enable, Repair tool and changing the model number (only) and then exiting, it complains about the EEPROM's HOST ID not matching. This tool is called Option.exe. There is another program for the EEPROM which allows you to back it up (eepromtool.exe). I loaded both of these programs and changed the model again, saving the EEPROM before and after. It appears that the file it creates is ASCII. There was no difference. The EEPROM that tool saves may not even be the same device used to store the HOSTID.

author: tv84
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 06, 2022, 04:47:30 pm
content: Joe, please upload here those tools.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 06, 2022, 05:32:07 pm
content: Quote from: tv84 on November 06, 2022, 04:47:30 pmI can certainly do this but I want to make sure that I send you what you need. These will have a lot of dependencies and I suspect these will have to be installed. If you were able to install them, these both require that the main PNA software is running for them to run. I had attempted to setup a Win2k virtual PC with the same settings at the PNA, however I wasn't able to get very far as it wants the hardware. I can provide you with the firmware I am using and you would have everything but I am not sure you could install it.I was going to just send you a link to the firmware but I suspect Keysight has scrubbed it. Using the links I had archived now just take you to their current product line. Again, I have it archived local so just let me know. Archived image is just under 50MB. The two EXEs would fit here if that's all you want.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 06, 2022, 06:02:26 pm
content: You should now have the entire install image.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 06, 2022, 06:25:12 pm
content: I have included the three EXEs. The main PNA software would have to run in order to run the other two. Let me know if there is anything else.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 06, 2022, 08:49:14 pm
content: Selecting No instead of Yes after changing model displays a different dialog. Both appear to have the same end effect. The options program returns to the defaults.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 06, 2022, 09:02:00 pm
content: Result of sending DIAG:POKE:LONG?

author: tv84
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 06, 2022, 09:21:14 pm
content: Do you know any special "keyword" like?-95403It's in the code next to this msg:"Model changed to special. Other options can be added after the analyzer restarts. This will take a few seconds."Seems related to "EEPROM validitiy code" as they call it.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 07, 2022, 12:08:17 am
content: You're a genius! Thank you everyone who helped. Hopefully others are able to benefit from your efforts.

author: tv84
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 07, 2022, 12:31:46 am
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on November 07, 2022, 12:08:17 amSeems pure luck but each one makes his own luck!All done within 1h of code surfing from scratch...So, my recipe for Joe to find hisnew E8357A HostIDwas:1 - Delete or rename "c:\Program Files\Agilent\Network Analyzer\gen.lic".2 - Kill the main app (I assume it's 835x.exe) and run it in a DOS shell with the following param:835x.exe -954033 - The app will detect the absence of the license file and regenerate it from the EEPROM, due to that special param, using the new HostID.4 - Then, with the new HostID, one can recalculate the new FLEXlm licenses.

author: tv84
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 07, 2022, 12:50:04 am
content: Having seen the old and new HostID from Joe, I guess the conversion rule may be very simple:Old PNAID=01ABCDEFNew PNAID=FEABCDEFSo, probably, the conversion rule isFF -01=FEorFF XOR01=FEOthers may confirm.

author: caesarv
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: November 07, 2022, 01:02:19 am
content: It sort of warms my heart to see all my licensing code being examined/reverse-engineered.FYI...in case you are curious, the 95403 number was picked because it is the zip code for the HP/Agilent/Keysight factory in Santa Rosa, CA.

author: tv84
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 07, 2022, 01:04:41 am
content: Quote from: caesarv on November 07, 2022, 01:02:19 amI love to know the story behind these small nuggets... Kudos.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 07, 2022, 01:19:16 am
content: Gave it a spin. Shown with the home made 70mm Beatty, uncalibrated. Using the 9GHz range for this.Also shown is the $120 LiteVNA vs the 20 year old PNA sweeping a 7GHz HP filter. The Lite's IF was set to 4kHz, 401 data points. The PNA was 20k, 801 data points. PNA supports unknown thru but using a simple SOLT cal on both.Good to see it all start to come together.Quote from: caesarv on November 07, 2022, 01:02:19 amBest post in a very long time!!!

author: TheSteve
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 07, 2022, 03:12:07 am
content: This is all good stuff! I love free bandwidth from heaven.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 07, 2022, 03:37:06 am
content: I felt I owed it to everyone involved to make one last action shot to show off the PNA's higher range settings.Both the LiteVNA and PNA were set to 1601 data points, 1kHz IF, 300k-9.0GHz. No averaging was used. Both ports were terminated during the measurement.The LiteVNA was calibrated using the standards supplied with the V2Plus4 which includes the second best sorted load from Mini-circuits using the ideal model. The leakage error term is being corrected.The PNA was calibrated using my homemade standards that I characterized using Mario's MatLab scripts against a set of Agilent standards. The best of the eight sorted loads is used (not a bad $80 investment). These were characterized to 6GHz. Coefficients are being used and the unknown thru model is selected.For fun I set the PNA's IFBW to 100Hz as well. This is about as fast as the LiteVNA at 1kHz.

author: Forzaman
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 07, 2022, 04:37:12 am
content: Hello. I have a newly acquired E8357A that has option 015 (configurable test set) already installed. At the time I purchased myVNA, Keysight had a store on eBay that was offering the time domain option (010). After I received the VNA I realized the Keysight eBay store was no longer selling the options. I asked Keysight Used for a quote on the time domain option, but was told they do not deal with consumers only commercial clients. I was pissed, so now I find myself here looking to hack the time domain option, and to throw in the 9GHz upgrade for good measure.Reading the posts here, I see the procedure to get the new HostID, but how do I calculate the FLEXlm licenses afterwards? I'm a newbie to this option hacking process. Any help would be very much appreciated. Thanks!

author: PA0PBZ
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 07, 2022, 09:30:11 am
content: Quote from: Forzaman on November 07, 2022, 04:37:12 amSince I missed all the fun with the .exe files (I guess that was a PM to TV84), I will jump in herePost your new HOSTID and the wanted options and some magic will happen.

author: tv84
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 07, 2022, 01:16:31 pm
content: It seems this quest had a bit ofhistoryin recent weeks...For reference only.

author: Forzaman
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 07, 2022, 01:49:52 pm
content: Quote from: PA0PBZ on November 07, 2022, 09:30:11 amThanks PA0PBZ! I will clone my HDD before messing around with the files since the unit came with a 6-month warranty. I ordered a HDD that is scheduled to arrive mid-week. Once that is done I will post my HostID. Very much appreciated!

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 07, 2022, 03:07:18 pm
content: Quote from: tv84 on November 07, 2022, 01:16:31 pmI thought maybe we would get lucky and Keysight would provide support, or at a minimum they would provide CV with approval to support them. CV's comment about the end of his career certainly paints a grim but all too common, picture of today's company culture in the USA. I'm thankful we have member's not only capable but willing to help.Another thing that came out of that thread was CV's response about the lower frequency limit and there was no option to bring it below 300kHz. This is why I had told you that I don't think there is anything else worth going after. If he had said there was some experimental, unreleased option, I think it would have been worth spending more time with.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 07, 2022, 03:14:46 pm
content: Quote from: Forzaman on November 07, 2022, 01:49:52 pmSmart! This is the first thing I typically do when working on old equipment. I am using a Transcend 2.5" PATA SSD in mine. I have used this same drive in other XP & 2k equipment with very good results. Last time I bought them, they came direct from the factory so they may be getting harder to come by as there is little demand.

author: Forzaman
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 07, 2022, 04:53:33 pm
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on November 07, 2022, 03:14:46 pmI was thinking about trying a PATA SSD, but was reading on the Internet that it wouldn't make much difference on Win2k because it doesn't support the TRIM function among other things. A YouTube video showed the bootup time of a Win2k PC with a HDD, and after the drive was swapped with a SSD. The time was essentially the same, but you are saying there was a noticeable improvement in the VNA performance? Cheers.

author: Forzaman
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 07, 2022, 05:33:02 pm
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on November 07, 2022, 03:07:18 pmI have purchased a lot of test equipment during my career, and still do so as a consultant, so I have a good relationship with the R&S, Keysight, Anritsu, etc. sales reps. Sometimes I can get them to pull some strings for my equipment that I use for my personal use, but not much luck with Keysight. I was looking at the N4416A test set for my E8357A to expand it to 4 ports, but it requires the N4425A Balanced Measurement Software. The guy at the Keysight Used website told me that he never heard of that software, and the unit is not supported anymore anyways. My Keysight sales rep said he would ask around, but told me that it was nowhere to be found, essentially saying it was lost. There are plenty of these test sets up for sale on eBay, but they are no use to anyone without the software. Such a waste of perfectly good hardware.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 07, 2022, 05:39:17 pm
content: Quote from: Forzaman on November 07, 2022, 04:53:33 pmI made no mention of any noticeable improvements in VNA performance. That said, I think on my one LeCroy DSO, after upgrading from 2k to XP, with and without the SSD, the boot times were a wash. The small amount I gained with the SSD, I lost with the OS. Still the time allowed to stabilize the equipment is much longer than they take to boot, so nothing to be gained there.The reason I chose that particular drive was it supports many of the features not supported by these old OSs internally with it's firmware. While I was told by members on this forum about SSDs having a very short life (weeks) and lots of fine tuning of the settings required, I installed one where I imaged the drive with no changes what so ever. Basically I was trying to force the worse possible condition according to the experts to validate their claims. That was in 2015 and that drive is still in use today with the same setup.PNA performance wise, I basically use it headless. In other words, I tend to do all the heavy lifting with an external PC. The first VNA I bought basically sent me down that path as it had no computer. So to make it work without the aid of a grease pen, using a PC was the only way to cal it or create Touchstone files..... The up side to that was it forced me to learn how the VNA worked and understand some of the math behind it. It also provided me with an appreciation for the real experts in this field, of which I am not.Why use an SSD? I've lost mechanical drives in test equipment before and my choice of moving to SSDs was hopes of improving long term reliability. Verdicts still out on that one. That said I have an old 80s DSO that uses a 68k in a VME chassis. A relic. It uses an MFM drive. The Miniscribe drive was locked up, typical of that brand with their out gassing. I bought a used Seagate ST-225 and hacked it's hardware to mimic the Miniscribe drive. The PSOS OS they used only supported a couple of different drives. That old scope with it's hacked up unknown history drive has been in my possession for over 20 years now and is still in operation. So, there's that data point...

author: Forzaman
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 07, 2022, 06:20:42 pm
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on November 07, 2022, 05:39:17 pmThanks for the clarification, and detailed background info! BTW, did you write that VI program that you posted the screen capture of with the impulse response? Very impressive!

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 07, 2022, 06:44:15 pm
content: Quote from: Forzaman on November 07, 2022, 06:20:42 pmYes, I wrote it. You can follow the link in my signature to my Github account and select the Solver32 link to see a few screen shots, or for more recent efforts, you can check the following link where I post about using it with the low cost VNAs:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/rf-microwave/nanovna-custom-software/2150/Anymore, I only develop for the LiteVNA. $120 gets you square wave drive, 2-port 1-path, 9.3GHz using harmonics and a bit of noise (see post above comparing the noise floor with the PNA). Still, it's been a lot of fun to play with and I highly recommend it to anyone wanting to learn more about VNAs.

author: caesarv
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: November 07, 2022, 07:40:54 pm
content: Regarding hard drives. When the PNA first shipped, we used 10GB Hitachi drives. They were pretty bad and we had to replaceda lotof them. Then we switched to 40GB Fujitsu/Toshiba drives. They were much better, but would still fail occasionally. Eventually we switched to Intel SSDs. We had virtually no failures with the Intel SSDs. We may have switched to Micron SSDs recently.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 07, 2022, 09:26:36 pm
content: Good info Caesar. Mine was supplied with a Fujitsu MHV2040AH.I had started a link for this VNA that has my notes including some of your responses to my questions. Had you stayed on at Keysight a little longer, I would have hit you up for an computer board upgrade and alignment. Are you aware of any companies who offer alignment for these? I should be clear, I'm not asking about calibration.After upgrading to the last firmware that supported it in order to enable some of the more advanced diagnostics, it then barked about the receiver cal which appears to have never been done. When I dug into it, I suspect the system was old enough that that the MXCAL files were not yet being used. Seems straight forward enough to go through.https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/agilent-e835xa-pna-vna-notes/

author: Forzaman
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 07, 2022, 09:43:49 pm
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on November 07, 2022, 06:44:15 pmVery cool... both software and Lite VNA. If it had Direct Receiver Access I would be all in. Need it for High-Power S-Parameter measurements; hence the E8357A acquisition with opt 015. Cheers.

author: tv84
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 07, 2022, 10:19:35 pm
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on November 06, 2022, 09:02:00 pmJoe,What is the result of?DIAG:PEEK:LONG? 57742, 1and/or afterDIAG:POKE:LONG 57742, 1

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 08, 2022, 12:45:04 am
content: All combinations cause the same error. Sending DIAG by itself also causes the same error. I looked at the included help built into the PNA and they also make no mention of this command. I have attached a copy of the manual I use to program it.

author: caesarv
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: November 08, 2022, 01:18:30 am
content: That address space (57742) contains the bits to program the functionality of some of the earlier PNAs. Most of the below do NOT apply to the E835xA models.Test Set Mother Board EEPROM (0xE18E):Bit 0: #014 - loops onlyBit 2: #1E1 - add source attenuationBit 5: #016 – receiver attenuatorsBit 6: #081 – reference channel transfer switchYou can set or clear them as desired, but obviously they should reflect your actual hardware. You can set them via the Option Enable program; no keyword is needed for these particular options.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 08, 2022, 01:23:36 am
content: I don't have any of the equipment required to perform the alignment but that didn't stop me from trying out the software. I was surprised it created two new mxcal files without the anything attached to the GPIB.Files are named mxcalfile_r4p12 & mxcalfile_r4p21. Maybe r4 is receiver #4 with S12 & 21. I have attached one of the files as a reference. Sadly, they did not make the file format available or it may have been possible to align it using equipment beyond what was originally called for.

author: tv84
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 08, 2022, 09:18:14 am
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on November 08, 2022, 12:45:04 amMy inferences were based on the file attached and what I saw when I looked at the code.I guess that the way one can deal with the EEPROM to enable/disable the options that don't use via flexlm licenses is by manipulating the EEPROM bits directly.Of course, my command syntax may be wrong, and better yet, as Caesar indicated the HW may not allow the combinations. But these commands are used for something...No messing with Caesar!Test Set Mother Board EEPROM (0xE18E):Bit 0: #014 - Configurable Test SetBit 1: #H11 - IF AccessBit 2: #1E1 - Source Step AttenuatorBit 3: #UNL - Bias Tees w/AttenBit 4: #075 - 75-Ohm ImpedanceBit 5: #016 – Receiver attenuatorsBit 6: #081 – Reference channel transfer switch

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 08, 2022, 01:09:24 pm
content: Quote from: tv84 on November 08, 2022, 09:18:14 amMy question was about your attempt to use the undocumented DIAG command. You could use the old DOS Debug command. Another option would be to load up a different debugger or just use the built in Agilent tools. But again, my PNA has no additional hardware.Forzaman, can you zip all of your cal files and post them? You may need to do two posts.

author: Forzaman
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 08, 2022, 03:20:48 pm
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on November 08, 2022, 01:09:24 pmSure, no problem. If you are referring to the files in D:\calfiles, I just have four files; mxcalfile_r4p12, mxcalfile_r4p21, eebudat.dat, eebudat.bak. Is this what you want?

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 08, 2022, 03:43:49 pm
content: Quote from: Forzaman on November 08, 2022, 03:20:48 pmFrom the service manual, it appears that they stored them in two separate locations.QuoteQuoteIf there are more located in the other directory, please include these as well. If they are the same name, maybe just rename them and let me know where they were stored. Could you also provide the Application Code Version you are running. This can be found on the About page.

author: Forzaman
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 08, 2022, 04:54:50 pm
content: Joe, zipped file is attached. Filename includes the code version. Folders in the archive indicate location. Cheers.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 08, 2022, 08:11:22 pm
content: Quote from: Forzaman on November 08, 2022, 04:54:50 pmThanks, I have them now.All pure guess work and just talking out of my ass, looking at the raw data, it appears they have everything in 8-Byte records. Records end in 3f-42 & 0 (I'll call that the record type).FORZ12vs21: Looking at your two files, index 2 & 3 are swapped. Much of the data between these two files are identical. Perhaps some sort of very long pointless header.FORZ_JQS_12vs12: Your 12 file compared with the one I generated. Index 0 and 4 do not match. Perhaps an encoded serial number? Then there is again a very long header which appears identical.Forz_12vs21_data: Looking at your two files, everything is identical starting at index 4 to 95. I suspect after this is the actual data for the receivers.Forz_12vs21_data_flip_decimate_combine_fixpoint:I suspect one file contains data for two receivers? If I strip off the record type, then flip the byte order, decimate the records and convert it to some sort of fixed point we get this mess. One column per receiver, 182 records each. Guessing they would do a linear sweep from the 300k to 9GHz.I'll try loading your files onto my PNA and see if it barks about a SN. If so, then change those two index's and see what happens. If it loads, I expect there is going to be a fairly dramatic change in the offset. If it seems right, maybe introduce a disturbance in one receiver. May not be too bad. Then again, as I said, all a guess.

author: Miek
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 08, 2022, 08:33:07 pm
content: All of the values in the file are 8-byte little-endian floats. The value starting at 0x20 (let's call it x) seems to relate to the number of entries in the file. Then there are x/2 values denoting the frequency of each entry. After that, there are x*2 values which I'm guessing should be paired up into complex numbers and then matched with the frequency list.Edit: also, the first value in the file is the total number of doubles in the file (not including itself), so (634+1)*8 = 5080 bytes and (459+1)*8 = 3680 bytes. The next value is 4 in all examples, and then the next two values are either 0,1 or 1,0 depending on the filename p21 or p12.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 08, 2022, 10:01:43 pm
content: Attached showing both headers and data (after decimate) for Forzaman's files on log scale.Yes the first index is the number of total records. Then the number of receivers (?). Receiver select, number of frequencies tested, table of the frequencies tested. Then the data, ping ponged between the two receivers. All is double.We can see Forzaman's system is only 6GHz and will need to be aligned after they increase the range. Mine has data to 9GHz because I generated the files after I extended the range. Of course it's all garbage.Now that all this makes sense, next step is to write some software to align it.I am not sure why their files are missing data for the two receivers after I am guessing the range changes. I would expect they would have data for all four. Odd.

author: Forzaman
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 09, 2022, 03:40:03 am
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on November 08, 2022, 10:01:43 pmGreat info. I should be able to get my hands on the required power meter and sensors to perform the receiver calibration once my unit is upgraded. The E4419B won't have the G12 or H12 option (higher accuracy certification), but will be calibrated, as will the sensors. I can send you the Cal files once this is done.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 09, 2022, 01:43:41 pm
content: I have to purchase or rent equipment to align it. I did write a simple program to create the two files and set a unique value for each of the four columns. I used the receiver display to monitor the effects and map out the receivers while changing one column at a time. I can cause a shift across the entire range.I wonder what they were trying to accomplish. I've been using mine without these files since it arrived and again, don't believe it ever had them from the factory. Any flatness would have been addressed when performing the calibration. This is where we need Joel Dunsmore to chime in. He may be able to provide some much needed insight.When I look at your files, it seems unstable and not what I would expect. I could understand a shift as it goes through the bands but not like what you have going on with the higher frequencies. I wonder if you made some sort of flatness measurement and then tried to rename the files in the C:\programs...., exit and reload the PNA program (no need to reboot), how it effects the flatness. Maybe just use the receiver display with nothing attached to the PNA's connectors. It would also be very interesting to see your files after you align it.Your files are basically +/-1. I use using 10, 20..What's interesting is that this seems to cause other problems. Almost like these changes are not just a function of some software math but changing something in the hardware? Sorry I didn't take any photos, but instead of just seeing a shift, in one channel, it caused a different channel to become unstable (shifts of several 10s of dBs.). Really odd.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 09, 2022, 01:48:13 pm
content: Under $100 and covers the entire range!https://www.ebay.com/itm/284299377445?hash=item4231903b25:g:ztQAAOSwYipgpMWS

author: Miek
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 09, 2022, 02:21:39 pm
content: I really think they're meant to be interpreted as two lists of complex numbers. If you do it that way you can see that the magnitude of the first list looks plausible - it's mostly continuous with a jump at 3 GHz where the source switches to using the 3rd harmonic of the synthesizer. In 2d, it's close to 1+0j at low frequencies then plots (roughly) a circle around the origin, which makes sense since there should be some cable delay in the test.Given the text from the service manual:QuoteI expect that each file may only have the response from one receiver and the two files represent adjustment for each direction. Since the second list of complex numbers is purely real, this may be the power meter response and the first list is the A or B receiver response.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 09, 2022, 03:09:31 pm
content: "interpreted as two lists of complex numbers.""... each file may only have the response from one receiver and the two files represent adjustment for each direction. Since the second list of complex numbers is purely real, this may be the power meter response ... "Thanks for the post. This makes sense. Any thoughts as why they do this at all? Once they know the source is level, what do they gain? The one thing I was thinking is I often don't calibrate the instrument and this would have the potential to tighten things up.

author: Miek
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 09, 2022, 04:05:33 pm
content: I think the goal is to meet the "Uncorrected system performance" spec. I would expect any of this error to be corrected by a full 2-port cal, so I don't think it's critical to do the adjustment.I got quite in-depth looking into this on my E5062A. It came with only the transmission-reflection test set and I was able to enable the 2-port test set on it, and as part of that I had to generate the right calibration files to get good uncorrected performance. One was the "port characteristics" file, which turned out to be a standard 12 error-term calibration that gets loaded by default and overridden when doing your own cal.I'd expect the PNA to have something similar somewhere and it should capture any error in receiver flatness, so it's odd to have a separate test & cal file, but the service manual has a clue - from the "Calibration Coefficient Test" it says:QuoteMaybe they found that the other error terms are far more stable than the transmission tracking error and so they only adjust that. If they were to overwrite all of the error terms, it could hide damage to the calibration kit/ports/couplers.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 09, 2022, 04:28:46 pm
content: I processed Forzaman's two files as complex and split out the two halves. I think you are spot on.QuoteI am the worse when it comes to calibration and will typically only do it as a last step and if I am just looking for some rough idea and don't calibrate at all. When I got the PNA, I noticed it's a bit more error than would have liked. This alignment would certainly improve that.***Correct freq index, aligned the two files vertical to easier see what is going on.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 09, 2022, 05:22:30 pm
content: One odd thing I noticed, when I had the PNA create the two files if you look at the frequency table, both list 40MHz twice. Any idea what is going on here? Is this the point where they switch sensors?***Replicates are also at 10M, 748M, 1.5G, 3G, 4.5G, 6G, 6.5G & 7.75G. So something else is going on.

author: Forzaman
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 09, 2022, 05:46:52 pm
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on November 09, 2022, 01:43:41 pmI didn't perform any alignment yet. Those cal files were on the unit when I received it (file dates are 2009). I only performed a PNA operator's test, which everything passed. I can look at the Receiver display.The service manual indicates that only the A and B receivers are adjusted during the receiver alignment. Therefore it would make sense that there are only two sets of data.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 09, 2022, 05:53:27 pm
content: Quote from: Forzaman on November 09, 2022, 05:46:52 pmI figured that when I saw the 6GHz upper range in your table. Now that Miek has sorted out the format, there's no need to supply your cal files after alignment.Notice how your files also have repeat measurement points at the same locations. I think that's the last remaining question... Well,, maybe...

author: Forzaman
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 09, 2022, 05:54:34 pm
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on November 09, 2022, 05:22:30 pmI recall Caesar mentioning in another forum that measurement points are taken at the beginning and end of each band with only a 1Hz separation between the end of one band and the start of the next.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 09, 2022, 06:02:18 pm
content: Nice catch. Indeed, I needed to increase the display precision. (9999999, 10000000).

author: caesarv
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: November 10, 2022, 07:17:29 pm
content: The main purpose of the mxcal files is to provide a simple default calibration. This way, if you make an S11 measurement and place a short/open on the port, it will show a line at 0dB. Likewise, if you measure S21 of a short thru-cable, the trace should also be near 0dB. These files are somewhat bypassed if you perform a user calibration beforehand. So even if there are no files, you can still make an accurate measurement by performing a user cal. You need to perform the Receiver Adjustment in order to generate a real correction for your particular instrument. This requires a power sensor or two that covers the entire frequency range.For the E835xA series, the corrections do not vary all that much from unit to unit, so you can use the corrections from one unit on another. It will not be really accurate, but it will suffice in most cases. I have zipped my E8358A files and have included them here.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2022, 08:26:01 pm
content: Thanks, I downloaded them an will have a look.If the system has been user calibrated, does it still use the data from these files or are they only used as a default when no calibration has been performed?

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2022, 08:55:00 pm
content: Looking at Forzaman's 12 on left compared with Caesarv's 12 on right.I wonder when you run the alignment, does the PNA set the output much lower? I was expecting the power meter to be around 0 rather than -7.

author: caesarv
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: November 11, 2022, 12:42:01 am
content: The mxcal files arealwaysused if available. Then, when you perform a user calibration, the corrections are applied on top of the existing mxcal values. I believe that there are also some second order effects with the mxcal files that deal with the phase transitions between bands....but my memory is a bit fuzzy on the exact details.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2022, 03:33:12 am
content: Thanks. Any idea about the -7dBm power recorded from the meter? Mine defaults to 0dBm and I assumed they would run the alignment at that level.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2022, 01:31:05 pm
content: Assuming the datasheet uncorrected values are what we are looking for, my system without these files is no where near that.I don't have a good way to measure power but wanted to try and create these files. I added support to my software for my Signal Hound BB60C and automated the alignment process. The SA is limited to 6GHz and is not a good reference. My software uses 0dBm when performing the alignment. After 6GHz, I fudged the data. Assuming the SA was rolling off, I filling out the array with the value measured at 5.5GHzish. So ignore the data beyond 6GHz.It appears to improve things a fair amount and with my poor attention to calibration, it may be worth renting a meter to align it.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2022, 03:11:51 pm
content: Attached comparing Caesarv's r4p12 file with mine. Ceasary's is 12, mine is 21. Looking at the RAW data, the peak-peak and standard deviation are very close but the mine for what ever reason reads about 5dB higher than expected. Also notice that mine doesn't exhibit that step at 3GHz. I was actually thinking to make a cal file that just adds a fixed offset to the raw data.Maybe mine had some different hardware revision that caused this offset and removed the 3GHz step.DELTA is the difference from the RAW and the power meter reading. With the RAW data being so stable, I suspect most of this error is my Signal Hound and not the PNA's source. When I made this measurement, I used a short section of semi-ridged to attach the SA.

author: Miek
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2022, 04:18:45 pm
content: Keep in mind all the stuff I've written above is just my best guesses at how it could work, it might not be the power meter response in there. It could be reference receiver response instead, and that's why the phase is normalised to 0? Thinking about it some more, I would expect the power meter trace to be pretty flat from the source calibration adjustment.Are you able to create traces for individual receivers like in the attachment? If so, you could do that and then fiddle with the values in the mxcalfile to see what changes.

author: Forzaman
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2022, 03:44:41 pm
content: Received my HDD and duplicated the drive. Next task is to replace the battery on the CPU board. The system date keeps reverting back to 2088 when I power-up the system. The old battery is a RayoVac BR2335. They seem hard to come buy these days, can only find the CR2335. The battery clip seems to be very tight. Don't want to damage anything by using too much force to pry it. Caesar... can you give any advice on changing the battery? There is no mention of battery replacement in the service manual.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2022, 03:57:47 pm
content: Same here. Purely guess work as I don't see where it is documented. Yes, the PNA has a few ways to look at separate receivers. I mentioned using this earlier.My question for Forzaman and Caesarv, if they rename these cal files, exit and reload the PNA program, display S11 with nothing connected, does theirs display 0, or 6ish dB? This will at least make sure my PNA is not doing something abnormal.Quote from: Forzaman on November 12, 2022, 03:44:41 pmI just changed mine last month and ran into the same problem. The cost for the BR seemed like it was over $20. I tossed in a CR. Not expecting it to last as long.

author: Forzaman
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2022, 07:30:12 pm
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on November 12, 2022, 03:57:47 pmMy VNA is dismantled right now. Going to pickup a battery on Monday. If Caesar doesn't reply by then, I will give it a try and let you know.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2022, 08:29:46 pm
content: No problem, I'm in no rush. When you get to the point where you are going to align yours, it would be very interesting to use the CW mode, with the output set to 0dBm and measure a few points manually.I would expect the meter to read 0dBm but who knows, maybe it's -6ish.I was concerned with the BR2335 being so odd, if I bought one how long had it been on the shelf. A lot of my devices use the CR2032 which is a bit smaller OD and thinner. I doubt it would pop out but you may only get a few years of service life.

author: caesarv
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: November 13, 2022, 12:23:05 am
content: Interesting. I did not even know the difference between a CR and a BR battery until just now. I have always replaced them with a CR battery because they were much more common and have never had a problem. Now that I have looked it up, I agree that a BR would be slightly better for the RTC, but I doubt it makes much difference. Both should last 5-12 years...longer if it is kept plugged in. I always used the common CR2032 battery Just pry the battery out....I have never damaged the board by prying it out...but I was only working on the 500 MHz board. I do not remember if the 266 MHz board had a similar battery.With regard to what I said earlier about the mxcal files being about the same: I probably should have added the caveat that this may applyONLY IFyou have the same options. The one I provided was for an E8358A with 3 jumpers on each side of the front panel. If you only have 2 jumpers on each side, then my guess is that you should use the mxcal files from a similarly equipped instrument. I can provide a set of those files also.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2022, 12:32:18 am
content: I believe Forzaman's is also the 3 jumper system. Mine is the two jumper, no frills. If you don't mind, please post the files you have for the 2-jumper. Maybe this will explain the offset.Also, mine is the low end computer and uses the same battery.

author: Forzaman
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2022, 02:42:19 am
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on November 13, 2022, 12:32:18 amYes, I have option 015. Ok, I'll try to pry out the battery. The 266 and 500 MHz CPUs use the larger 2335 size coin battery (BR type) whereas the 1.1GHz uses the 2032 smaller size.

author: Forzaman
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2022, 02:55:26 am
content: Caesar, are you familiar at all with the configurable test sets available for the E835xA PNAs that allow 4-port measurements?There are quite a few N4416A test sets available for the E8357A, but none come with the N4425A Balanced Measurement Software required to control it. I was wondering if the software requires a license, and if so, is it node locked to the PC. If it is node locked to the PC, then I will give up my search, but if it is somehow locked to the test set, then I will continue my quest to get one with the software. Thanks!

author: caesarv
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: November 13, 2022, 06:04:32 am
content: Attached is the 2-Jumper version the mxcal files from my E8358A. The previous one I uploaded was for the 3-Jumper version. Again, these are only approximate for any unit but the one it was created for.Sorry, I do not know anything about the N4416A or the software that was used for it.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2022, 03:47:34 pm
content: Shown with 2 jumper on 12 and 3 jumper on 21. There 's about a 1dB shift between them but still the big offset.QuoteAnother thing I would like to see is after alignment (assuming both of yours are), could you also plot S11 and S22 with an open.I installed the 2-jumper files and swept S11/22 with the an open. While its much worse than my attempt to align it, it addresses much of the offset. Seems to suggest there is something else going on with the alignment and what is actually being recorded.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2022, 04:09:38 pm
content: Just for completeness, shown with Caesar's 2-jumper files using an old HP cable for a thru and measuring S21/12 (no cal).

author: Forzaman
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 14, 2022, 03:26:44 pm
content: Joe, I attached my screen captures with and without the mxcal files loaded. Note that the scale was changed to 2dB/div on the plots without the mxcal files loaded due to the larger offset. For the through measurements I used a 3-foot flexible SMA test cable with adapters on the ports. The insertion loss characteristics of the cable is also attached.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 14, 2022, 04:32:35 pm
content: Thank you very much for running that. This answers the first big question. Seeing that mine exhibits roughly the same offset, the next question is do they reduce the power level when running the alignment. If you plan on using one of the called out power meter/sensors with the internal alignment routine, I would be very interested in knowing if the power level is reduced to -6ish dBm or if they run it at 0. I assume you can just read it right from the power meter. I'm not too worried about the entire data set, just the first data point would be good enough to answer that.That HP cable I show was only used to a couple of GHz. Good enough to see if the files Caesar provided would produce an offset or not.One step closer...

author: Forzaman
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 14, 2022, 05:37:57 pm
content: Yes, I plan on performing the alignment with the proper equipment, but only for the existing 6GHz configuration for now. I'm not going to do the frequency upgrade until after the warranty expires. I can round up all equipment except for the 8482A sensor so far... still asking around.Will let you know the power level during calibration.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2022, 01:29:39 pm
content: That's fine and will tell me what I want to know. Because mine created the files even without anything attached to the GPIB, I wonder if it goes though the adjustments first. I'll try that again while monitoring one of the ports.Just an FYI, if it wasn't clear, you can backout that range change or any other option if that was your concern about the warranty. I was thinking changing the hard drive and battery would be more intrusive as you have to open it up where the range option is just software.Mine came with a return grace period. Maybe a few months. More than enough time to check it. I hoped to ship it off to Caesar before they left KeySight. They posted about having some of the CPU boards in stock and I knew that sending it in would solve the alignment and uncover any other potential problems. Mine had been worked on before by some monkey in a cage which increased the risk. By the time I was running down the clock on that grace period, I had used the PNA enough to be hooked. No more 70's thumb wheel switches.

author: Forzaman
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 16, 2022, 04:23:50 am
content: Thanks for the info Joe. I didn't realize you could revert back to the original HostID and frequency range after the upgrade. PA0PBZ provided me with the key for the time domain which I installed and is working well.If I need to send it back, I can reinstall the original HDD. I doubt they will realize the battery has been changed. Even if they do, I don't think they would have expected me to ship the unit back just for that. There were no cal or warranty stickers on the case, so they shouldn't be able to tell if I opened-up the unit.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2022, 05:46:26 pm
content: At least with mine, I am able to just copy the original license back into the PNA and it's resorted.I've been playing a bit more with the receiver alignment and reading what I am able to find. Looking at the service guide for the N5221A, they use the power meter to measure the cable loss. They don't mention measuring the power from port 2. What's interesting about this is the data you both supplied, the second file has a slight loss.I had tried to run the alignment without the power meter and monitoring the signal from PORT1. It seems to suggest that the run it at 0dB. They do call the mxcal files, mixer calibration. It would make some sense if they are using R1 as part of this measurement, we would see the 6dBish loss.I wrote simple program to parse the ASCII characters from the alignment software. I further filtered the data by showing only characters with adjacent ASCII characters (see attached).Quote*************Receiver AdjustmentThe receiver calibration is used to adjust the network analyzer receivers for a flat response across its full frequency range:1. A power meter/sensor is connected to Port 1, as shown in Figure 3-16, to establish a reference for flatness.2. A cable is inserted between the power sensor and the test port, as shown in Figure 3-17, to establish a reference for the cable.3. The same cable is connected between test port 1 and test port 2, as shown in Figure 3-18, and a signal from Port 1 is used to adjust the “B” receiver at Port 2.The adjustment is repeated using a signal from Port 2 to adjust the “A” receiver at Port 1.Data obtained during this adjustment are stored in the mxcalfile_pxx files inflash memory on the test set motherboard, with a backup copy stored on the hard disk drive. The data are used in subsequent measurements.********

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 20, 2022, 02:19:15 am
content: Again, pure guess work...Measured power directly at port1 and also R1. Insert test cable on port1 and measure power at end of cable along with R1. Subtract R1 and zero the phase. This seems to get us very close on the two lower graphs for NOCAL.PNG. Attach cable to port2 (thru). Measure S21,12. Compensate the mag only with new levels.S21/12 with the cable used to align it is now very good. S11/22 also seems decent but procedure could be totally wrong.Next step is to try a patent search.

author: Forzaman
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 20, 2022, 04:32:57 am
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on November 19, 2022, 05:46:26 pmDo you not have the E835xA Service Guide?In the Source Calibration procedure prior to the Receiver Calibration, it mentions not testing the Port 2 power since the difference from port 1 is negligible.Quote from: joeqsmith on November 20, 2022, 02:19:15 am

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 20, 2022, 04:57:18 pm
content: Quote from: Forzaman on November 20, 2022, 04:32:57 amI had read that but note that it was not specifically called out in the receiver calibration. The reason to look at the embedded comments in their program was to solve some of the ambiguity.When extending the range, both need to be ran. If I plot the source, I can see they only characterized it to the range it was sold for, not considering it would be upgraded. Its pretty bad.

author: Forzaman
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 20, 2022, 05:08:48 pm
content: I had read that but note that it was not specifically called out in the receiver calibration. The reason to look at the embedded comments in their program was to solve some of the ambiguity.When extending the range, both need to be ran. If I plot the source, I can see they only characterized it to the range it was sold for, not considering it would be upgraded. Its pretty bad.That is bad news about the calibration not going beyond the original frequency configuration. I may not upgrade my unit now. I don't have any need to go beyond 6GHz at the moment. Obtaining the time domain option was my main goal.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 20, 2022, 07:11:39 pm
content: Worse, I am not able to find any information on where the source leveling data is stored. I had also backed out the ASCII data for the sourceadj.exe program (attached). It looked like it may have stored it into the srccalconfig.dat file. Odd thing about that file. I had backed up the discrete files from the original hard drive. After installing the SSD, I upgraded the firmware. This file now has a 2005 rather than a 2004 date. They are different but the fact they overwrote it, I don't believe this is where the source data is stored.When looking at the ASCII dump, note the "SENS1:CORR:CSET:STAT ONSENS2:CORR:CSET:SEL 'SENS2:CORR:CSET:STAT". Looking these up in the programmers manual, we can see they are for calibration. The one I was expecting was the SOUR:POW:CORR but we don't find it in the EXE.QuoteThe attached graph shows the source set to 0dBm, sampling at each frequency that the receivers would be aligned at. You can see how the performance degrades once we move beyond 6GHz.In my case leaving the alignment may be the best answer. I don't like not knowing with 100% certainty how these adjustments are made and how they effect the end result. I understood you're planning to use all of the correct equipment. In that case, I don't see a reason not to open up the range and realign it.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 21, 2022, 01:14:08 am
content: Quote from: Forzaman on November 20, 2022, 05:08:48 pmThe only reason I was wanting to increase the frequency range was to increase the time domain resolution. I wanted to use the PNA as a comparison to the $120 LiteVNA. They limit the LiteVNA's firmware to 9.3GHz. Attached are two of the circuits I demo'ed (splitter with an LC tank and a low pass filter). The data from the PNA is pretty much what I would expect.You can see the demo here if interested:

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 21, 2022, 05:58:54 pm
content: I am getting a sinking feeling about the source leveling. Could it be that they were writing directly into the PNAs memory. I tried some of the SCPI commands to read out the source calibration (not the commands which use the GPIB as the master). So far I have been able to reliably crash the VNA software and Ethernet connection.I wonder if two different teams worked on the source and receiver leveling. Maybe that's why they are so different. They could have had everything stored in their custom MX files. I bet there are some good stories about the culture within Agilent during this time.diag:poke/peek:byte,int&longSENSn:CORR:CSET:STAT/SEL OFF/ON

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 22, 2022, 08:06:45 pm
content: After unsuccessfully sorting out the source leveling, I decided to take a step back and try a very simple test. The following is from the programming manual:QuoteWhile from the description, this would seem to be related to the source's alignment, I ran another sweep with the power meter attached. I then sent the SOUR:POW:CORR OFF command. The PNA flagged no errors or warnings. I then took another sweep. As you can see, it has no effect. So these commands must be for some other feature but not the alignment.

author: caesarv
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: November 23, 2022, 04:00:31 am
content: For the early PNAs, such as the E835xA, the source adjustment values are stored on the individual boards in EEPROM. Most boards have a 512byteEEPROM (not kB!) This, of course, is not much memory but it is enough to store values for each band. The receiver (mixer) cal had too much data, so it had to be stored in files on the HDD. Later PNAs had large flash memory on the Test Set Mother Board and that was used whenever data had to be stored....with a few exceptions.The EEPROM on each board is divided up into a Header (16 4-byte values) and the remainder.You can look at the contents of this by running the ViewEEHeaders program. It will show the headers and the data. You can even edit those values, although I do not recommend doing so. Changing some values can really (and hopelessly) screw up operation. There is a way to store all the data to a backup files....I suggest doing that.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 23, 2022, 02:51:11 pm
content: FYI, this program requires a password. I assume it uses blank, agilent or tsunami. Mine is tsunami. Using the View, Minimize Application, we can see a program called EEBACKUP.EXE located in the service directory. It appears the PNA software must be running. Selecting the Backup EEPROM causes a crash.Ignoring the backup and looking at the contents of the source board, it's not at all what I would expect for a precise leveling adjustment. I wonder if these hardware adjustments are separate from the leveling adjustments. Or, maybe you can't actually get the source anymore level than what I have shown.I would have guessed that they wanted to be able to send out a replacement board and not have to deal with send the data on a separate media. If you still had to send the instrument in for alignment anyway, this really makes little sense.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 23, 2022, 03:13:04 pm
content: Oddly enough, it recovers? A new menu is then displayed. My system sits on the LAN, making it easy to transfer files. Once you get the save and completed message the software creates 4 files. Interesting if they have these recrcal12&21 files which are different than the MX files. All 4 files are ASCII. I have attached the EEPROM.DAT file from mine (renamed to .TXT).

author: Forzaman
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 25, 2022, 07:22:09 pm
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on November 21, 2022, 01:14:08 amFinally got around to looking at the video. Very nice software... must have taken you a long time to develop. I hope the LiteVNA folks funded some of the development. LOLI should have all the equipment on hand in the next week or so to run the alignment. Let me know if you want me to provide any information.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 25, 2022, 11:02:05 pm
content: Thanks. The software started with my first VNA a few decades ago and continues to evolve. It's self funded except for a friend had purchased the one of the LiteVNAs and my first NanoVNA for me to help them understand how to use a VNA.The suppliers have provided their products to some of the larger YT channels for reviews (unboxing). I haven't received anything from them and have not asked. Now if Keysight offered to set me up with some new equipment, I would be open for chat.I'm basically stuck with the PNA. If you decide to increase the frequency range, it would be interesting to see how level your source was before and after alignment. The problem, I am not sure you can get that data without writing custom software for your setup. It may help answer what to expect if I ever were able to align it.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 01, 2022, 01:58:04 pm
content: Quote from: Forzaman on November 25, 2022, 07:22:09 pmIf you have backed up your EEPROM like I show above and assuming you are aligning the source, it would be helpful if you backed up the EEPROM after alignment as well. Then provide both files. This will tell us if this is where they are storing this data and if so, which locations changed.

author: Forzaman
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 01, 2022, 04:14:04 pm
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on December 01, 2022, 01:58:04 pmOk... Will do.

author: Forzaman
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2022, 01:38:55 am
content: I backed-up my EEPROM. It saved a eebud.dat file in D:/calfiles. It is quite a bit different than the original eebud.dat file that dates back to 2004. I then selected the restore EE data, which prompted me for a password (tsunami). I exited though without performing a restore. Did you get the "save EEPROM data" menu after following through with the restore? I can't get that menu to show up.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2022, 01:54:08 am
content: After selecting save. I never tried to restore.

author: Forzaman
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2022, 03:20:33 am
content: Ok. I thought that is how you got to the second EEPROM save and restore menu where you can select the location to save the backup file. I don't get that menu... maybe I have older firmware. By default it saves the backup to D:/calfiles, and the name of my file is eebudat.dat not EEPROM.dat.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2022, 04:03:28 am
content: Did you select the Specify Location like I show? I wanted to save mine to my local PC, not the PNA and that may be the reason for the difference. You could also check that version is the same.Note how that second EEPROM save is pointing to E:\MXCAL which is the my desktop PC.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2022, 02:30:59 pm
content: Also, if you don't mind posting the two files (before and after). If you add the extended range and realign it again, I would like to have that file as well.If Keysight has some sort of software for that power meter, it would be very nice to see how tight your meter is compared with the VNA. The problem is you would need to use CW and manually set the PNA. More trouble than it's worth.

author: Forzaman
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2022, 08:22:28 pm
content: I don't get the menu that asks where to save the EEPROM data. I get the first menu (screen shot attached). When I select Backup EEPROM a message pops-up saying the EEPROM was backed-up (no crash), but didn't say where. When I selected Restore EE from backup, a pop-up window appeared asking for the password, after that it asked if I wanted to restore the EEPROM from D:\calfiles\eebudat.dat without providing an option to select from another location. I do not get the 2nd menu you show where you can select the file location. It seems my EEBackup program defaults to the D:\calfiles folder.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2022, 09:13:46 pm
content: Check the EEPROMTOOL.EXE. Remember mine crashed when I tried to run BACKUP.EXE. When I went to minimize the PNA software, I saw that dialog. Having tried both, it may be from the other program. If you don't see it there, I'll try and replicate the steps I took. It's very possible that EEBACKUP.EXE is hardcoded to store the data to the D:\calfiles which may explain why it crashed on my PNA as I never setup the second partition. You would think that it would post something more useful, like "D:\calfiles not found" "Would you like to backup the data to another location"...

author: Forzaman
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 03, 2022, 02:43:10 am
content: I attached a document that describes the procedure to use multiple drives on a PNA, or a single drive on multiple PNAs. It mentions that on older PNAs, the EEPROM data is backed-up to D:\calfiles.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 03, 2022, 03:22:13 am
content: Currently my PNA has a single SSD with only one partition setup. While the original HDD that was supplied with my PNA has a second partition which would have been identified as D:\, I have no use for it and did not set it up. The original eebudata.dat on my PNA was stored under D:\calfiles. When backing up the data, I had it save to E:\MXCAL which again, is the my desktop PC. I thought I had made all of that clear before but I am guessing you feel it somehow matters where they are stored?One reason I wanted the PNA was for the Ethernet connection. With it being Windows based, it's a breeze to interface with it. Not just moving files but also for controlling it.I have not had the PNA on today and didn't try the other program to see if this was how I was able to select the target location.

author: Forzaman
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 03, 2022, 02:43:57 pm
content: I just provided the document to confirm your suspicion that the older PNAs default to the D:drive for EEPROM data backup. Other than the EEPROM backup, it appears that it doesn't matter where files are stored. No need to try and reproduce the menu that allows the user to specify the location... again, I just mentioned that I couldn't get it for your information since you posted your observations. I'm happy with it defaulting to D: drive. BTW, I bought a SSD (Transcend 64GB) to see if it would speedup the OS, but for some reason my duplicator doesn't work with the SSD as the target. May have to use cloning S/W instead.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 03, 2022, 04:05:31 pm
content: I did try to replicate my findings but ran into some really strange problem. Maybe you can reproduce it.I tried to run the EEBACKUP.EXE tool again and get the same crash. I then ran the EEPROMTOOL.EXE and could select the target location and file name as before. So, this is the tool I used to create the EEPROM.DAT file I uploaded.Next I ran a diff between the original EEBUDAT.DAT file that came with the PNA. These two files are not the same. Even their sizes differ.Next I setup a FAT32 partition and set it to to drive D. I did not install any files or create any directory structures on it. I then ran the EEBACKUP.EXE. This time no obscure error and it counts as it reads the data. It then creates a new directory D:\Calfiles with EEBUDAT.BAK and EEBUDAT.DAT. Running a diff on these to files, they match.Next I ran a diff on them against the original EEBUDAT.DAT file that came with the PNA. These do NOT match!!!On a hunch, I reran the EEBACKUP.EXE program and created two new files. Running a diff on these to files, they again match. I then ran a diff between them and the previous ones I created. These do NOT match!!!I'm glad I didn't try a restore.

author: Forzaman
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 03, 2022, 05:05:36 pm
content: Wow... that is strange. I'm glad I didn't try a restore either. When I backed up the EEPROM using EEBACKUP.EXE, it overwrote the original eebudat.dat file, but didn't touch the original eebudat.bak file. Comparing the files, the sizes were different and the data was quite a bit different as well. I'll try the EEPROMTOOL.EXE in the next day or two... not playing in the sandbox today. My Rx alignment is delayed a bit... the 8482A power sensor I sourced needs calibration. Cheers.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 03, 2022, 06:24:24 pm
content: I had backed up the entire contents of the original drive and then made an image. I archived the contents locally and packed away the drive just in case. For this test, I just renamed to files to append Set1, Set2 ... to the name and then archive them to the local PC. You could just rename them and leave them inside your D:\calfiles area. Then just run the software again and let it create two new files. Rinse and repeat.Maybe the software isn't smart enough to detect what hardware is installed. It may be scanning for data that isn't present and we get some randomness in the file. After seeing it crash and burn with an obscure error with a missing drive letter, I don't have a lot of confidence that this is some well polished code. It's an engineering tool, much like my own software.It would be nice to know what is happening as it may help in decoding the alignment data for the source.I take it you had the higher frequency detector already in cal. Did you get one that takes to 9GHz or just 6?Looks like Caesar may have returned to the rat race....Quote

author: Forzaman
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 03, 2022, 09:12:50 pm
content: I lucked out with the test equipment. A company that I'm consulting for has all the equipment on hand that is called up in the manual (8482A sensor, E4412A sensor, E4419B meter). The 8482A has a range of 100kHz to 4.2GHz, and the E4412A is 10MHz to 18GHz. The 8482A is not in active use, so I told them I would pay to get it calibrated for borrowing their equipment. They may consider selling everything to me since they mainly use newer equipment now. I may just sell my power meter (Anritsu ML2438A w/ sensors) and buy theirs to support the PNA.

author: Miek
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 03, 2022, 09:42:29 pm
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on December 03, 2022, 06:24:24 pmIf you have a look under the Edit menu in the ViewEEHeaders utility (aka eepromtool.exe), it has a rough description of the parameters for each band (pic attached). Also, decompiling sourcecal.exe gives some slightly clearer names:Code:loc_00413212: If 0042C3DCh <= 0 Thenloc_00413248: var_eax = call Proc_3_15_42A130("+++++ Band " & CStr(var_0042C3DC) & " +++++", , )loc_0041326D: If 0042C166h >= 8 Thenloc_0041326F: var_eax = Err.Raiseloc_00413275: End Ifloc_004132D1: var_eax = call Proc_3_15_42A130("DetOffDac(" & CStr(var_0042C166) & ")= " & CStr(ecx+edx*4+00000040h), , )loc_004132FE: If 0042C166h >= 8 Thenloc_00413300: var_eax = Err.Raiseloc_00413306: End Ifloc_00413363: var_eax = call Proc_3_15_42A130("BreakDac(" & CStr(var_0042C166) & ")= " & CStr(edx+eax*4+00000060h), , )loc_00413390: If 0042C166h >= 8 Thenloc_00413392: var_eax = Err.Raiseloc_00413398: End Ifloc_004133F3: var_eax = call Proc_3_15_42A130("Power1Dac(" & CStr(var_0042C166) & ")= " & CStr(eax+ecx*4), , )loc_00413420: If 0042C166h >= 8 Thenloc_00413422: var_eax = Err.Raiseloc_00413428: End Ifloc_00413484: var_eax = call Proc_3_15_42A130("Slope1Dac(" & CStr(var_0042C166) & ")= " & CStr(ecx+edx*4+00000020h), , )loc_004134B1: If 0042C166h >= 8 Thenloc_004134B3: var_eax = Err.Raiseloc_004134B9: End Ifloc_00413519: var_eax = call Proc_3_15_42A130("LogOffDac(" & CStr(var_0042C166) & ")= " & CStr(edx+eax*4+00000080h), , )loc_00413546: If 0042C166h >= 8 Thenloc_00413548: var_eax = Err.Raiseloc_0041354E: End Ifloc_004135AD: var_eax = call Proc_3_15_42A130("SlopeOffDac(" & CStr(var_0042C166) & ")= " & CStr(eax+ecx*4+000000A0h), , )loc_004135DA: If 0042C166h >= 8 Thenloc_004135DC: var_eax = Err.Raiseloc_004135E2: End Ifloc_00413641: var_eax = call Proc_3_15_42A130("DeltaDac(" & CStr(var_0042C166) & ")= " & CStr(ecx+edx*4+000000C0h), , )loc_0041366E: If 0042C166h >= 8 Thenloc_00413670: var_eax = Err.Raiseloc_00413676: End Ifloc_004136D6: var_eax = call Proc_3_15_42A130("Power2Dac(" & CStr(var_0042C166) & ")= " & CStr(edx+eax*4+00000100h), , )loc_00413703: If 0042C166h >= 8 Thenloc_00413705: var_eax = Err.Raiseloc_0041370B: End Ifloc_0041376A: var_eax = call Proc_3_15_42A130("Slope2Dac(" & CStr(var_0042C166) & ")= " & CStr(eax+ecx*4+00000120h), , )loc_00413797: If 0042C166h >= 8 Thenloc_00413799: var_eax = Err.Raiseloc_0041379F: End Ifloc_004137FE: var_eax = call Proc_3_15_42A130("Power3Dac(" & CStr(var_0042C166) & ")= " & CStr(ecx+edx*4+00000140h), , )loc_0041382B: If 0042C166h >= 8 Thenloc_0041382D: var_eax = Err.Raiseloc_00413833: End Ifloc_00413893: var_eax = call Proc_3_15_42A130("Slope3Dac(" & CStr(var_0042C166) & ")= " & CStr(edx+eax*4+00000160h), , )loc_004138BE: 0042C166h = 0042C166h + 00000001hloc_004138CD: GoTo loc_0041320Bloc_004138D2: End Ifloc_004138F9: var_eax = call Proc_3_15_42A130("DacPer1dBSlope = " & CStr(var_0042C058), , )loc_00413933: var_eax = call Proc_3_15_42A130("Yig slope = " & CStr(var_0042C064), , )loc_0041396E: var_eax = call Proc_3_15_42A130("PMYO = " & CStr(var_0042C05C), , )loc_004139A9: var_eax = call Proc_3_15_42A130("Yig offset = " & CStr(var_0042C060), , )loc_004139CF: var_eax = call Proc_3_15_42A130("===========================================================", , )

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 03, 2022, 10:02:37 pm
content: That's a very good deal. If they sell you the equipment, you may have to start a small side alignment business.... Road trip!!Ideally I would like to be able to use any power meter (assuming it is up to the task) to align it.I had looked at the header when Caesar mentioned it.

author: theamberco
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: May 27, 2024, 10:10:21 pm
content: Hi, Is it really possible to extend the frequency to 9GHz of the E8357A, I have one and I want to know what is needed to do if any one can help, or if I can get the time domain option.My HostID is:C48539A0Installed options:015Thanks.

author: PA0PBZ
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 29, 2024, 07:33:12 am
content: According to several people in the thread you also posted in it is possible yes. The thread contains all information, I don't have this device so I never tried.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 29, 2024, 03:54:48 pm
content: Quote from: theamberco on May 27, 2024, 10:10:21 pmThanks to TV84, it is certainly possible to create the license to enable this and any other feature assuming your hardware supports it. How you go about getting it aligned is another matter. Then there is getting standards to go with it.

author: tv84
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 29, 2024, 04:28:15 pm
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on May 29, 2024, 03:54:48 pm@theamberco contacted me and I had absolutely no idea that I had done this...Getting old...Quote from: joeqsmith on May 29, 2024, 03:54:48 pmThat is your game.

author: theamberco
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: May 29, 2024, 04:39:49 pm
content: I got the part of deleting the files and running on dos but I dont get the part of the key generation with the recalculation of the new FLEXlm licenses. I did downloaded the program "imcryptgui" ask for encryption seed 1 and encrypton seed 2 but it does not do nothing just had a button that said new but I have no idea how to generate a key to enter for the frequency extension. Any help apreciated I do have a copy of the image in another hard disk.

author: theamberco
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: May 29, 2024, 05:42:39 pm
content: If I succeed with the options upgrades I still dont know how to run the FLEXlm. Do you know what do you need besides two power sensors which I have to align it?

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 29, 2024, 07:57:07 pm
content: Quote from: theamberco on May 29, 2024, 05:42:39 pmThis is covered in the service manual. As long as you have access to all of the equipment they call out, you should be all set.

author: theamberco
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: May 30, 2024, 04:49:55 pm
content: thanks for your help I got at least time domain option running but for some reason I get a lot of errors with the 9 GHz option an it does not even go to more than 6.025GHz, I have the older CPU unit, that is probably why, but at least I got time domain. What other discontinued products can you get options like that is nice to know.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2024, 07:12:16 pm
content: Notice how after setting up the new license, the instrument identifies as being the E8358A. This is what you should have.https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/agilent-e8357a/msg4507450/#msg4507450This option is not dependent on the CPU board installed, so you should be fine.

author: theamberco
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: May 30, 2024, 07:35:49 pm
content: It does not get recognized as a 8358A, trace goes crazy and source leveled error and 6GHz max. I reverted back to 6GHz all normal

author: tv84
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2024, 08:05:57 pm
content: joe, the option for 9GHz is 1F9, right?

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 31, 2024, 03:18:36 pm
content: Quote from: tv84 on May 30, 2024, 08:05:57 pmI believe so. If this is in question, I can double check my notes later today.https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/agilent-e8357a/msg4493539/#msg4493539Quote from: theamberco on May 30, 2024, 07:35:49 pmThere is still a problem with the license then. As I mentioned in this thread, you don't want to try and install features for hardware you don't have. I suggest only adding the 9GHz option for starts.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 31, 2024, 03:40:03 pm
content: After reading this entire thread, outside of TV84's locating the key, the best post IMO is this one from Caesarv:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/agilent-e8357a/msg4507543/#msg4507543Talking with him early on, he had brought up the TDR feature several times. I had enable it and tried it out but because of how I use the PNA with a PC, it's never proven useful.I never mentioned it in this thread but my only goal with extending the frequency range was to use the PNA for a sanity check for some experiments I have been running in the X-band. The 9GHz is just barely enough to make it useful.