Flir DM93 Multimeter - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: kyleaudio
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2013, 02:16:25 am
content: Hi guys, I saw this multimeter in a magazine today, thought it looked pretty sweet, I also had no idea that Flir has a multimeter. I decided to check here and see what you guys thought about it, but I was surprised that I couldn't find anything in the search!Looking at the specs and price, it looks comparable to the Fluke 87V and Agilent U1272A Meters. Anyone out there know anything about this meter? Sure wouldn't mind seeing a tear down and review of this!http://www.flir.com/thermography/americas/us/view/?id=61256&collectionid=833&col=61425

author: rolycat
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2013, 02:54:59 am
content: It looks as though it was only launched this month, along with a couple of clamp meters and some other test gear - a pocket non-contact voltage detector, a moisture meter and a videoscope.The NCV detector looks like a neat little gadget, with a vibration alert, built-in torch (flashlight) and a reasonable price (~$35).

author: kyleaudio
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2013, 03:23:37 am
content: Yeah, it does look like a new product line. If it's anything like their thermal imaging gear, It should be quite good! I like the looks of the Android Bluetooth software.You are right about the NCV, looks like a nice tool to have around.

author: Bored@Work
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2013, 03:50:30 am
content: Quote from: kyleaudio on October 24, 2013, 02:16:25 amOne? They have a boatload of multimeters - sort of. FLIR owns Extech, offering all kinds of rebranded multimeters from around the world (ok, from Asia).http://www.extech.com/

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 24, 2013, 04:10:36 am
content: It looks interesting but... They are being idiots with making you make an account just to see the manual. Marketing mistake IMHO.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 24, 2013, 04:17:19 am
content: Yes, brand new, just released.One is already on the way for teardown and review.

author: kyleaudio
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2013, 11:19:36 pm
content: Awesome Dave, looking forward to your review/tear-down on this one.Bored@Work, I am aware that Flir and Extech had some sort of relationship(http://www.flir.com/instruments/us/en/list/?folder=5142), I just didn't know that Flir had their own multimeters under the flir brand. They are probably a higher quality if they are putting their brand on there. They sure do have nice thermal imaging gear, lets hope that this is as good!Lightages, I agree, somewhat annoying... Maybe they just expect you to buy the meter if you want the manual?

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2013, 11:24:39 pm
content: I was offered one to look at, but said that as there were some firmware changes coming up, they would wait til tat was done.However that was before the teardown vid - not heard anything from them since...

author: retiredcaps
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2013, 08:10:31 am
content: Quote from: Lightages on October 24, 2013, 04:10:36 am+1.I found the manual without registering. I uploaded here (787kB) and on Martin's site.

author: Wytnucls
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2013, 08:35:31 am
content: Martin had a quick overview of the meter recently. There are issues with the firmware, from what I saw.

author: Ebivetar
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2013, 11:43:10 pm
content: It really looks awsome. For the price its pretty good.I just keep wondering why heavy duty DMM don't have the rubber enclosure which almost all DMMs have.

author: Wytnucls
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2014, 03:19:58 pm
content: 400 USD for a meter with a 40,000 count Cyrustek chip sounds a bit excessive. The UNI-T 71D has the same kind of specs and features, for a lot less money than that (150 USD). Of course, input protection is much better on the FLIR, but that hardly accounts for the price difference.The main DMM IC chip is the same as the one used in the 71D, the ES51966.The front end ADC is the AD7799Driving the LCD screen is the Holtek HT1622 (HT1621 on the 71D)The PCB reminds me of the CEM construction and I wouldn't be surprised if the meter is made in China by CEM, just like some of the Extech meters.http://www.analog.com/static/imported-files/data_sheets/AD7798_7799.pdf

author: Wytnucls
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2014, 03:28:13 pm
content: Here is Martin's review with a look on the inside:

author: scientist
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2014, 07:16:32 pm
content: Will there be a hack for this one?

author: sync
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2014, 11:01:26 pm
content: Quote from: Wytnucls on February 03, 2014, 03:19:58 pmI saw Martin's videos and I own a UT-71C. They are not in the same league. The Flir has much more features and it has a good, fast update rate. The UT-71 is slow, the handling is sometimes awkward and overall not a good meter. It's not worth 150$ IMHO.Edit:I prefer my UT-61E over the UT-71.

author: Wytnucls
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2014, 05:16:37 am
content: The FLIR doesn't have that much more features. dB and dBm with no way to change the reference voltage. Low Z, a low pass VFD filter and a couple of LEDs on the side. The 71 has a 4~20mA % and a Pass/Fail feature. It still doesn't account for such a huge price difference.I'm not sure you watched the video properly or you would know that in 4,000 count mode, the 71 is as fast as the FLIR (They use the same IC).Please, the 61E is a POS. It drifts all over the place. Get a proper voltage reference and you'll see. It's just a 2,000 count meter at best. My 71s, using more expensive components, have been rock steady over more than a year now.

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2014, 05:47:42 am
content: Quote from: Wytnucls on February 04, 2014, 05:16:37 amHey ... 61E is a DMM too, but the DMM stands for Drifty Multi Meter.Seriously, when every time I see Cyrustek based meter, the 1st thing pops up in my mind is to see whether it's has internal or external voltage reference, if its internal then definitely a thumb down..

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 04, 2014, 05:53:08 am
content: I advocated for the UT61E, but I think less of it now too. The UT71E I got was WAY out of spec and was a bitch to get to stay on spec. It seems to be stable now. Maybe I got a lemon. It does happen to every manufacturer. The Flir DM93 looks OK, but for $400 it should be flawless IMHO. I will reserve my opinion on it until it sees a few more reviews and some in the field.

author: Wytnucls
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2014, 05:57:17 am
content: The ES51966 has an internal bandgap reference, that seems to do the job. There is no obvious reason as to why an external bandgap reference would be any better, unless it has better specs.

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2014, 06:05:24 am
content: Maybe its just me, its just I don't feel confident for these relatively new IC designer houses when it comes to "long term" drift, especially with internal reference + all other functions and crammed all of it if possible into a single silicon die.

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2014, 06:26:33 am
content: Quote from: Lightages on February 04, 2014, 05:53:08 am+1 IMHO as well.Strong competition in this price bracket, such as the Fluke 287 or Agilent U1252B for example (~$420 range). Or for less, the Brymen BM869.

author: Wytnucls
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2014, 12:42:25 pm
content: Quote from: BravoV on February 04, 2014, 06:05:24 amCyrustek is a respected Taiwanese company producing some fairly high end ICs, notably the DMM ES51966 and the LCR chips ES51919/20.FLIR, sensibly, went for reliability and a cost-effective proven-design IC (since 2002), instead of a plethora of transistors and passive components. Top manufacturers who can afford it, like Fluke and Gossen, have had their own DMM ICs for some time. FLIR is not in the same league yet, except on price.The ES51966 voltage reference is rated at a decent 50 ppm/C.The UT71 is fitted with 0.02% metal film precision resistors rated at 5ppm/C.

author: sync
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2014, 01:28:07 pm
content: Quote from: Wytnucls on February 04, 2014, 05:16:37 amAuto hold, a working continuity beeper (the UT-71 is way too slow), Bluetooth.It cost about the same as a Fluke 87. Compare the Flir with the Fluke. The UT-71 is not a contender because it's not an industrial meter.QuoteMy UT-61E didn't drift very much. About 0.03% since I got it. Tested against several proper bench DMMs. Which have a far better stability than these cheap voltage references (DMMcheck, etc.). Other UT-61E may drift more. But I don't use it for precision stuff. It's for quick and dirty stuff. And for continuity testing where the UT-71 fails.Edit:I don't know what your table shows. But if it's the drift in counts than it's not bad at all.

author: Wytnucls
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2014, 02:12:28 pm
content: You can compare it to the industrial Fluke 87 if you want, but no industrial company is going to buy that thing to replace their Flukes, just because it says FLIR on it. One can tell it is built very cheaply in China with low-end components. Those battery wires glued with hot snot to the case and that appalling paper shielding inside the cover are just some of the telltale signs of dodgy construction.I compare it to the UT71D, because they both use the same DMM IC and have roughly the same specs. It is not a question of whether the 71 is better or worse than FLIR's first DMM, but why it should cost so much more.So far I haven't seen anything that justifies the high price that takes it into Fluke's territory.

author: Wytnucls
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2014, 02:39:10 pm
content: How can you say that your 61E hasn't drifted more than 0.03%, when its best accuracy is 0.1%+2. Over what period did you test it and how often? What bench DMMs did you measure it against? What are their best resolution counts and when where they last calibrated? Did you keep records or are you just pulling a number out of thin air?My 61E and 71s were measured against a 1,200,000 count Gossen 30M, with a one year calibration certificate, with all meters kept in a air-conditioned room, which has a constant temperature of 21C, 24/7.The chart shows LSD variations over time and no, they're not good for the 61E. You can basically forget about that last digit, unless you tweak your DMM every couple of months.That's my experience with just one meter of course, but I don't think I am the only one to have noticed large drifts on the 61E.

author: sync
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2014, 03:01:26 pm
content: Quote from: Wytnucls on February 04, 2014, 02:12:28 pmWhat is the point that they use the same DMM IC? It doesn't matter!Quote from: Wytnucls on February 04, 2014, 02:39:10 pmHP34401A, Fluke 8840A, Keithley 199 and Siemens B1046. Which are stable to each other. I tested the UT-61E a few times. But It doesn't matter to me. It's the cheap meter for quick and dirty stuff. I use my bench meters usually.QuoteYou can forget the last digit on nearly any DMM. On the Gossen M30 you can forget the last 2 digits. Is it a bad meter?Resolution != accuracy != precision

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 04, 2014, 03:44:19 pm
content: I just re-viewed the videos by Martin. The Flir DM93 looks like a really well built Uni-T instead of a Fluke or Brymen. The biggest things I don't like is the big shiny plastic window and panel that will show its age very quickly after it gets used a bit and I really don't like the totally integrated case and its molded in probe holders. The input protection and input layout look very well done. The test leads look to be from the same manufacturer as Brymen uses. 100 hours operation on 6 AAA batteries?The operation of the meter seems to be nice and fairly logical. It has good specs and has all the features most people would want. The things it has over some other meters in this class is the internal data logging and Bluetooth. If they eventually supply software to connect to it that is free then this is a big plus. I see on the google play store that there is a free app for the infrared instruments. To me, at this point, this looks like a Uni-T UT71X series done the right way.What can this be compared to?Well the Brymen BM525 has similar accuracy, only 10,000/6000 count, better built IMHO, internal 87,000 logging at up to 20 times per second, and costs around $315 USD shipped to your door, if you include the data cable.The Agilent U1271A can be had for around $350 plus shipping, if applicable, and the bluetooth module costs around another $50. It has similar accuracy and some more features. So for the same price, would you get the Agilent or the Flir? I think with the 300 hour battery life on 4 AAA batteries might be a big decision point too.

author: Wytnucls
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2014, 03:47:31 pm
content: The point is that the DMM IC is the heart of the meter and governs quality, resolution and accuracy. That's what usually determines a major part of the street value of any meter. Any bells and whistles attached to that IC, would have to be exceptional to justify such a price hike.Like I said, so far, I don't see that happening.I know the difference between accuracy and resolution.In my experience, the 61E drifts out of accuracy specifications over a period of three months, which is not normal. Let's see what other 61E owners have to say.

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 04, 2014, 03:49:24 pm
content: As far as the off topic subject of the UT61E goes, I was not too upset when I blew mine up with a 5kV test to see if it would survive. Mine was hard to keep on spec with its drifting.

author: sync
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2014, 04:45:27 pm
content: Quote from: Wytnucls on February 04, 2014, 03:47:31 pmThis DMM IC is only a part of the quality of a meter. It has to be good enough. You can build good or bad meters with it. And the UT-71 is not good. A good meter is not only defined by it's resolution, accuracy and precision. It's also about build quality, features, handling and other stuff. For example the UT-71 need about 180ms to reliable trigger the continuity beeper.

author: Wytnucls
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2014, 05:16:49 pm
content: You keep on harping about the flaws of the UT71, but you haven't explained why the FLIR costs so much money, while it is made in China and has been fitted with cheap components (Cyrustek, Holtek and some Chinese uC). This is the crux of the discussion.Maybe because the test leads are made of silicon (sic), according to their datasheet.

author: sync
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2014, 05:38:09 pm
content: Quote from: Wytnucls on February 04, 2014, 05:16:49 pmWhat is the problem with Cyrustek, Holtek and chinese uC? The price of a product is not only defined by it's BOM. Do you thing the Fluke ICs are much more expensive? I doubt that. Any why the price of the ICs matter? 40000 counts are not challenging.What the problem with made in china? Of course they made a lot of cheap junk. But I have some high quality and expensive products made in china. No problem.

author: Wytnucls
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2014, 06:03:56 pm
content: Look, this discussion isn't going anywhere. You obviously think this is a fantastic meter, worth every penny and a contender for the Fluke 87 coveted place in industry.I think this is a meter which is barely worth more than a UT71D. Let's wait and see how much market share they take away from Fluke in the near future.

author: sync
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2014, 06:23:30 pm
content: Quote from: Wytnucls on February 04, 2014, 06:03:56 pmNo I don't. I don't know this meter. I only saw Martin's videos and my impression is that itcould bea good meter. You have compared it with the UT-71 and put it on the same level except input protection. Which I think is silly. But you are right. The discussion going nowhere.QuoteNot much. A lot of people buy Flukes because it's a Fluke and their experience with them. Nothing wrong about that. It's a very difficult market for a newcomer.

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 04, 2014, 06:24:14 pm
content: Quote from: Wytnucls on February 04, 2014, 06:03:56 pmI would have to agree with you. This meter is a UT71D with proper input protection and huge battery consumption with Bluetooth thrown in. Maybe it is built a bit better but it certainly isn't going to survive the same crap you could throw at a Fluke in this price range.Time will tell if it is any good or not.

author: torr032
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 04, 2014, 04:15:14 pm
content: Which multimeter is the best under 100 - 150$. I need one for the electronics,with true rms and double display, obviosliy to be fast ranging and continuity. I currently have ut61e, I am searching for something better.

author: echen1024
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 04, 2014, 04:46:55 pm
content: Quote from: torr032 on March 04, 2014, 04:15:14 pmStart a new topic. I would, however, go take a looksee at Brymen meters.

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 04, 2014, 09:53:11 pm
content: Quote from: torr032 on March 04, 2014, 04:15:14 pmDecent one (i.e. good input protections as well as some nice features) with dual display in that budget is going to be hard to come by IMHO. Budget fits a BM257 (big display, but not dual; runs ~$135USD). Dual display from Brymen would start with a BM521 (&up), but it runs $250USD (here).I suspect you'll have to compromise somewhere to get new (i.e. decrease wants, skip/reduce in areas such as safety, reliability, confidence <drifts a lot>, or increase budget sorts of things), or try for a used unit.

author: torr032
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2014, 08:03:28 pm
content: Brymen BM867 could be the best for me but where can I buy him?

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2014, 08:16:47 pm
content: Quote from: torr032 on March 06, 2014, 08:03:28 pmYou could contact another memberiloveelectronics(Franky), or via hiseBay storeand see when he can get you one, and for how much (bit cheaper if you PM here, and skip eBay, as he doesn't have to cover their fees that way). A number of members have purchased from him via either method, and have had good things to say.Another alternative, is tme.eu (BM867 page; runs ~$20 shipping to the US IIRC).

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 06, 2014, 08:36:29 pm
content: People need to stop asking where to buy something and not disclose their country! You waste everyone's time.

author: jarvis
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2014, 01:24:38 pm
content: Quote from: Wytnucls on February 04, 2014, 05:16:49 pmFrom Martin's video, the uC seems to be Fujitsu's chip not Chinese. I think this meter is made in Taiwan.

author: Wytnucls
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2014, 02:46:59 pm
content: It is a Fujitsu uC:Fujitsu New 8FX MCU is a high-performance 8-bit microcontroller with different size of embedded flash memory. The new series use the F2MC-8FX CISC CPU, which offers industry-leading class performance of 8-bit microcontrollers unit enabling more instructions to be executed per cycle. On top of delivering the industry class performance of the MCU, this series MCU also deliver low power efficient MCU products for the customer’s usage.This new series MCU also feature a variety of on-chip timers, A/D converters, analog and digital peripheral and communication interface such as LIN-UART (Local Interconnect Network Universal Asynchronous Receiver-Transmitter), CAN (controller area network), I²C (Inter-Integrated Circuit) interface for various application usage.The 71 series uses a TI uC, which is no slouch either.http://www.datasheetarchive.com/dlmain/Datasheets-12/DSA-233863.pdf

author: Wytnucls
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 13, 2014, 12:55:30 pm
content: As a correction, on closer inspection, I just found out that the UT71 range has an external voltage reference and is not using the Cyrustek ES51966F internal reference of 50ppm/C. Instead they have a Maxim 6190A rated at less than 5ppm/C and a long term stability of 50ppm/1000hrs.That would explain the good stability and accuracy I experienced since first ownership.

author: rvalente
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2015, 06:41:40 pm
content: Dave, I could not find your DM93 review and teardown!