Working as a self-employed engineer - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: pidcon
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2020, 05:10:08 am
content: I am interested to know how many of you are working as a self-employed engineer? Do you run your own company or work on a contract job from time to time? If you could share your experiences on how you got started and how you kept going, that would be great. Thanks.

author: cliffyk
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2020, 05:30:41 am
content: Way back when in Cambridge, MA some school buddies and I started a consultancy we dubbed "Second Opinion"--we offered our collective expertise to review construction/engineering proposals for a wide variety of clients; we got a negotiated percentage and fees for any savings and/or improvements we identified. It was pretty neat because we were essentially "armchair quarterbacks" tearing into and apart other people's work.We did reasonably well and were morphing toward general project oversight and management services. However as time passed we each went our way and that was that.After moving to Florida in the late 80s I "hung out a shingle" and did some IT consulting work that ended up as a position with the State of Florida--did that for 22 years, retiring in 2016...

author: pidcon
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2020, 01:02:57 pm
content: Hi Cliff. Thanks for the input. Judging from the lack of responses, I think it's safe to say that it's hard to start a tech/engineering business when engineering is considered as a cost centre. Even harder to keep it going competing against global players.

author: tpowell1830
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2020, 10:00:36 pm
content: Hi pidcon, I started working at Boeing as a contractor in 2012 as an electrical engineer on the Starliner project. I designed the switch electrical interfaces for the main console and when I was done with that, I caught the eye of the harness interface Lead, who hired me to do all of the wire harness interfaces and that lasted until October, 2016. I was picked up again in April, 2017, from a test group who needed wire harnesses done, and worked that until October 2018. Caught the eye of the manager for the Presidential Airplane wire harness implementation and started in February, 2019. Worked that until April 1, 2020 and was laid off because of all the Boeing problems, made complex by the corona virus. I am now unemployed, waiting for the next job...With that said, I am 66 years old and I could retire, however, I am able and willing to work, but it is a bad market. I don't recommend contract work. I did try many times with Boeing managers to get on as a Boeing employee, but it never happened. The gaps above were unpaid gaps, so that is a big downside.

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2020, 10:12:32 pm
content: I've been doing contract/freelance/consulting for some years now. It's good.Speaking of which, I'm open for new projects right now.Tim

author: srb1954
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2020, 02:14:28 am
content: I am retired now but have spent several periods in my career working as a free-lance contract hardware design engineer. The pay can be quite reasonable while you are working but there can be large gaps between projects when you are not getting any income.Finding new work is the most difficult aspect of free-lancing. It helps if you have lots of contacts within the industry rather than having to go round and cold call everyone.In my experience it is not always a good idea accepting work from small firms as they sometimes are slow to pay or don't pay at all.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2020, 05:32:19 pm
content: In my career, I've switched back and forth from employed to self-employed. Right now, I'm self-employed. Own company.Rewarding, but not always easy. A lot to take care of.Just a piece of advice: whether for payment conditions, project definition or any other clause (confidentiality, duration, ....), write and sign a good contract. This is key. "Trust" is good but it doesn't work when doing business.

author: cliffyk
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2020, 07:02:58 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on July 07, 2020, 05:32:19 pmYup--there's a lot to be said for a regular paycheck--that's how I ended up working for the State...

author: grouchobyte
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2020, 09:43:24 pm
content: For the last twenty years I have done consulting and contract work. Some years were good and very profitable, others were not. Some projects were fun and rewarding, others not so much. Some clients paid promptly, others did not. I think you need to take it day by day, year by year and try and manage your client one at a time. Dont get the idea that you need lots of clients.,..you dont. Also, ask yourself if this is something you want to do and not because finding a job is hard or difficult. Also, be prepared to have long dry periods of nothing, no work and no income. A working spouse or a rich uncle is a good thing to have to offset this. I’ve been lucky and have a wide breadth of experience and lots of industry contacts so it was worth it when I look backIts not for everyone, but those that have asked me to help get going are very pleased with their lives and income level todayThere are many upsides to working as a consultant or contractor, but if you try and fail the alternative is always there....nothing ventured, nothing gainedBob

author: VK3DRB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2020, 11:02:01 am
content: I run my own consultancy in electronic design.In a nutshell:More $ per hour.More variety.More stress.More sense of achievement.More hard core electronics.More responsibility.More paperwork.More uncertainty.More flexibility with your time.More control over your own destiny.More control over your own processes, procedures and tools.More thinking about work after hours, even at 4am in the morning.Less bureaucracy.Less close bond with colleagues.Less politics.Less boredom.I have been offered the odd tantalising full time job, but I prefer to be doing this. I have an excellent client to pays on time and has never questioned my invoices; and they are a great team. I have some other good smaller clients. There is another client however that I (and other contractors) dropped because the CEO never pays on time, is a micromanager and is a extreme tight arse who will argue over $10.So it pays to get good, professional clients.I work half the time from my office doing PCB design and the other half at the good client. It is a bit isolating at my office, but the radio keeps me company. That being said, our state of Victoria (Australia) is in COVID-19 lock down so many people will be working in isolation. Some can handle it, others cannot.In summary: There are pros and cons being a self-employed engineer.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 10, 2020, 11:25:38 am
content: Quote from: pidcon on July 03, 2020, 05:10:08 amMajority of people would start by doing odd jobs on the side to their day job, the so called "midnight engineer". When the jobs get too much then you quit your day job and transition to full time contracting/consultancy.

author: basinstreetdesign
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2020, 01:43:55 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on July 10, 2020, 11:25:38 amYes, back in the heyday of free-lancers that was the way things went. Not so much anymore.In 1982 - 1986 that's what was happening to me. At the time I was working for a company operated by a couple of shysters who had a hard time keeping their business going in a straight line but I had a hot project during off hours. So I tried to quit my day job to concentrate on what seemed to matter more. When I told my boss that I was quitting, he said "OK, but we want to keep you available so we will still pay you 50% of your salary and you must come in for the odd meeting but otherwise you are free to go!" This surreal arrangement lasted 6 months and I eventually re-joined them for a while. Freelancing was easy to maintain, spread by word-of-mouth only and paid good money.Later I created and ran a consulting design and manufacturing house with a forte' in broadcast video with two partners. We grew it from zero to $3M/yr and it lasted 12 years until 2002. By that time the industry was trending in a different direction. We found that clients were getting less patient with the R&D side of making money with products. More and more they just wanted to contract with someone to build a bunch of gizmos; that someone would share in the volume profit but also had to finance the R&D up front. The client just didn't want to bother with the NRE part.Those engineers that still wanted to live the lone-wolf lifestyle found that the hourly rate for such work just wasn't increasing anymore year over year and eventually stalled at about $65/hr (2007) not the $150 - $300/hr the professional associations were suggesting in my province.So you can still make a living as a freelancer, even raise a family if you are frugal, but don't expect to do much better than a carpenter in Canada.Personally, I am retired and "working for the government". My lifestyle is the best I have ever had since I have low expenses, my health (generally speaking) and still have my hobby.

author: VK3DRB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2020, 04:17:19 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on July 10, 2020, 11:25:38 amWe call that moonlighting in Victoria.You cannot do that where there is conflict of interest. Working for IBM, I had to get permission to fix VCR's on the side because they contained microprocessors. They read the riot act to two IBM engineers in Perth for designing on the side a modem for the Commodore Vic 20 in the early 1980's. There are heaps of other examples from this authoritarian company that beggars belief. Another example... in 1987, I wanted to buy shares in Microsoft soon not long after they floated. I was told by IBM if I or my immediate family members bought shares in Microsoft and they found out, I would be subject to disciplinary action. It turns out IBM were big hypocrites. In hindsight, I wish I had told them where to go.More recently, a Japanese automotive electronics company I worked with owned ALL intellectual property you designed in your own time whilst employed there. Even if you wrote Harry Potter - they owned it. You could not join the company unless you signed a contract stating the company owned all intellectual property you developed whist employed there - during working hours or out of working hours.One should be very careful if considering moonlighting. Taking on board common sense, I would say you can do stuff on the side providing:- It is not related to you employment.- It is not related to the products you work on at your employment.- It does not impact you employment in any way (interruptions, phone calls, tired and worn out doing two jobs etc).- You are not using company resources (oscilloscopes etc).Working for your self creates a sense of freedom to do you want, but some companions deny you the right to engage in similar work to theirs for a period a one or two years afterwards, as per your employment contract.

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2020, 06:23:59 pm
content: Quote from: VK3DRB on July 11, 2020, 04:17:19 amNot generally enforceable here unless you are feeding them proprietary information from your previous job, or stole clients for your own business. Unless they want to pay you during that one or two year period. AUS seems to be similar.Companies will tell you many things you are not allowed to do that are legal.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2020, 07:18:43 pm
content: Quote from: thm_w on July 14, 2020, 06:23:59 pmTrue. But it depends on the laws in your country. It is definitely something to research thouroughly before leaving.

author: pidcon
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2020, 12:15:42 pm
content: Quote from: VK3DRB on July 11, 2020, 04:17:19 amI know what you mean regarding companies wanting to own everything you do in and out of working hours. Even working in a teaching job in Asia, the terms in the contract states that the college owns all the IP whether it's related to the job or not, and ironically there is little to no resources to build anything of significant value at the college anyway. The legalese in the contract can sometimes be brief and vague at the same time, it can be interpreted as 'we own everything you've ever worked on in the past, present, and future'. I can't see how anyone would be productive beyond the scope of the day job.A friend of mine once mentioned that a certain multinational defence company allowed their employees to have a side business, as long it is in a different industry, like bakery or art. I think that is a much fairer deal.

author: SerieZ
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2020, 12:32:29 pm
content: How is that even legal?The Company owns the IP I create which it employed me to create. If I would create, say, a Video Game, something my employer did not hire me to do, they would not own the IP even if it used the same tools (not licenses!) I use at work.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2020, 05:28:43 pm
content: Quote from: SerieZ on July 15, 2020, 12:32:29 pmIt depends very much on the laws of the country you work in so there isn't a clear cut answer to whether it is legal or not.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2020, 05:38:57 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on July 15, 2020, 05:28:43 pmAbsolutely. You need to carefully look both at laws and your work contract.In many countries, if you work as an employee, the company indeed owns the IP of what you create, even outside of your work hours. Whether the fact it's in a different field matters depends on your specific laws.Over here, if it's related in some way to the field you work in as an employee, the company usually owns the IP. But there's a second thing to consider. Outside of IP matters, in order for you to have a job "on the side" you get paid for, you usually need to ask your employer. If it could compete with the company, they can prevent you from doing it. If it doesn't, they normally can't prevent you - but in any case, they normally need to know. Which is a problem, because even if you do something completely unrelated to your employed job, your employer may start questioning your loyalty, or your interest in your current job. That may be different in other countries.

author: Wilksey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2020, 06:41:34 pm
content: Don't quit your day job.Not yet anyway, unless you are going balls out on a venture and are 100% confident it'll work then you would be better off "moonlighting", if your company's employment contract allows.A number of good ideas stem from individuals or a few colleagues whose company they work for isn't interested in what their idea is and they go off and quietly start it on their own, the risk is that more than likely the idea will be for the same sector as your current employer.A lot of people I have spoken to about getting clients etc have all said the same, previous contacts, which is great if you have some, if you are an engineer stuffed deep in the bowels of the company then you might not have had the chance to gain said contacts, and with all of the latest GDPR changes in various guises it's not all that clear on what you can and can't do.So, my take on it is depending on what you are wanting to do, look at local (ish) companies and try and identify weak spots, you'll find that going to some "networking events" boring as the proverbial as they are can get you talking to some interesting folk, some whose industry might surprise you as to their needs, if you wish to send an email then you have to give them the option to "opt out" of future emails, so my understanding is you can send 1 email and put an opt out disclaimer and if they don't opt out you are OK to follow up the email but not make a nuisance of yourself, seems to be the done thing these days with nobody getting into any hot water whilst doing so.