Help on choosing a soldering iron tip - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: fredboivin
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 08, 2015, 07:50:36 pm
content: Hi,I scored a used JBC AD2700 on ebay and now I need to choose a cartridge to go with it. Unfortunately, they are quite expensive (40$ here in Canada), so I'll only start with one.Here is the list of tips I think I'll need at some point:- 2245-006 (1x0.5mm chisel)- 2245-011 (3x1mm chisel)- C245-034 (0.4x8mm hook)- C245-931 (2.6mm hoof)My projects include 0603, 0805, TQFP, other SMD and maybe dead-bug qfn. Which one do you think would be the most versatile to start with, the small chisel or the hook?Thank you,

author: wblock
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 08, 2015, 08:19:36 pm
content: New tips should be about half that on ebay.The small chisel is reasonably versatile. I have the -211 (similar to the -011), which is a high heat version and is amazing for desoldering. Seems kind of big for other work, but I mostly work with a magnifier and it feels like it's 1/4" wide instead of half that. I mostly use these two tips, but have not done much SMD work with either. Also have the tiny hoof, but have hardly used it.

author: fredboivin
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 08, 2015, 08:28:52 pm
content: Thanks for the reply,I already looked on ebay and the small number there is are not cheaper due to shipping and customs.I plan to desolder resistors and the like on prototypes. Could the hook replaces both the small and large chisel and allow some infrequent fine pitch soldering?

author: wblock
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 08, 2015, 08:37:12 pm
content: I actually have a hook tip, but it did not seem that great for my usage. Also, the hook is easy to bend when changing tips. Drag soldering with the small chisel should work.

author: fredboivin
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 08, 2015, 08:50:06 pm
content: The fine 1mm chisel it is, then!Thank you very much for the help,

author: continuo
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 08, 2015, 09:06:56 pm
content: I don't know... If you really only want to start with one single tip, my recommendation would be the C245-907, 2.2mm chisel for a start. Great for all-around work, both THT and SMD components.I have the 1.2mm 245-906 (came with the station) but almost never use it...

author: fredboivin
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 08, 2015, 09:27:07 pm
content: I understand that there is no do-it-all tip, but I feel a 2mm tip is rather large for SMT. 1mm is already larger than a 0603 pad and 2mm covers 5 0.5mm TQFP pins... I don't plan to do a lot of TH apprart from connectors and the like.Well, I could fork a little more and get two. Which ones would you suggest in that case?

author: GreyWoolfe
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 08, 2015, 10:09:33 pm
content: Get the 011 and 931 tips to start. Then, as coin of the realm becomes available, add the hoof tip and others as needed/desired.

author: fredboivin
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 08, 2015, 10:14:30 pm
content: GreyWoolfe, I think you made a typo, the 931 is the hoof tip.

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 09, 2015, 01:19:03 am
content: Quote from: fredboivin on December 08, 2015, 08:28:52 pmHave you tried looking into a reshipping company to see if they can get stuff into CAN cheaper?Quote from: continuo on December 08, 2015, 09:06:56 pmThis or the hoof would be a better all-rounder IMHO, even on SMT packages the OP indicated. The hoof is also better for drag soldering than a chisel.

author: GreyWoolfe
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 09, 2015, 12:55:24 pm
content: Quote from: fredboivin on December 08, 2015, 10:14:30 pmNo typo, the hoof should work well for drag soldering.

author: fredboivin
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 09, 2015, 03:38:48 pm
content: Got it.This threadpretty much convinced me to get the hoof tip.Thank you everyone for your input, this is greatly appreciated.

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 09, 2015, 08:12:40 pm
content: Fyi, in comparison to a regular bevel tip, the tinned face only bevel tip is a completely different beast.I have not yet been able to source enjoy a hoof for my iron. But here are some of my observations between otherwise identical bevels:Tinned face only: sucks bridges a world better. Solder doesn't dry out as fast, due to smaller wetted surface area. And the drop of solder is under more control.For drag soldering ic specifically, the tfo I use in my video is able to work in a relatively huge margin of solder loading, due to the bridge sucking. I can flick excess solder off and solder 4-5 rows of pins. With the exact same regular bevel, I need to wipe off the tip carefully and apply only a tiny amount of solder. And I have to do this every couple rows of pins.A hoof being something like a regular bevel with a dished face, I think will have some of its own advantages and disadvantages.They main advantage of the regular bevels is you can feed solder wire into it from any direction. This is the only reason I would ever use my regular bevels tips. For thru hole stuff. So the Hoof will have this advantage.When overloaded with a hanging drop, you should lose any advanlage of the dished face. So it should act like a regular bevel, i think. This means less control over the drop. You might get more solder leaving the tip onto the pads or a harder time to control the drop as in my video.I am kinda surprised I have never seen a tinned face only hoof.

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 09, 2015, 08:58:43 pm
content: Quote from: KL27x on December 09, 2015, 08:12:40 pmA hoof has a flat face, no dish/spoon/hollow. Hoofs also come in two varieties; tinned face only, and those that the tinning runs up the side a few mm. Those with a hollow/spoon for drag soldering are called by various names, such as spoon, well, Wave tip, drag tip, Gull Wing, and others (some have trademarked their names for it; though it's just a hoof with some material removed from the face from a manufacturing POV).In the case of the Weller LT series I use, I've Gull Wing tips specifically for drag solder in 2 sizes (2.3 & 3.0mm), as well as hoofs in tinned face only, also in 2 different sizes (3.0 & 4.0mm). As per hoof usage, I'm more familiar with tinned face only (Weller only offers the tinned face only variety), so I should have distinguished that in my previous post.But even hoofs with tinning up the side, still make great general purpose tips IMHO, and are suitable for drag soldering (check outJohn Gammell's YT videos; he uses a standard hoof, tinned up the sides and gets beautiful results by simply dragging). He is an IPC certified instructor though.

author: fredboivin
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 09, 2015, 09:23:21 pm
content: Thanks for the valuable input, KL27x.I'm starting to understand more about the different uses of tips. This is my first quality iron and I'm planning to thoroughly enjoy it. Due to the cost of the tips, I stress about getting the right one and not wasting money.The tinned face only bevel (C245102) is cheaper than the spoon one (C245931), so I'm not complaining. But I can only find it at TestEquity, who only charge in USD$, which sucks for canadians. On the other hand, they offer free shipping.At work, we use Metcal stations and my go to tips are a 0.5mm conical (STTC-143) and 1.8mm chisel (STTC-137). My station has arrived, so hopefuly I will make my mind up soon and order the tips this evening. For now, I think I'll go with tinned face only bevel and a smallish 1.8mm chisel (C245944). I'll add a fine conical, maybe hooked, when I'll come around an unavoidable QFN.Thanks for the clarification nanofrog, I misunderstood the term.

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2015, 08:03:20 pm
content: Hmmm... Maybe I'm confused on my soldering iron tips. I thought a hoof was the same thing as a spoon. I have watched Gammels vids, and he seems to favor a 3mm 60 degree bevel. He calls it an "ultra performer." Is that the hoof? Are they the same thing?Anyhoo, what I have found comparing my 3mm TFO bevel and my 3mm regular bevel is what I said. If I prep the tip like Gammel does, using a paper towel, it solders just like his vid. Beautiful. Almost like just plating the top of the pins, and 99% of the solder is making perfect filets.... But I don't care about that. With the face-only bevel, I can do that, too, if I want to prep the tip more meticulously.Here's the important bit to me. With the TFO, I can't make a mistake, and I NEVER clean the tip while soldering. Ever. With the bevel, if you don't wipe off even a micro thin layer of solder on the side, it'll smear across the pins, being flux-dead. With the TFO, as soon as you touch the fluxed pins, the entire blob is revitalized. Other than scraping off the residue every now and then with the iron cold, just for the esthetics, I don't clean it. (every long once in awhile I get a big blob of dark brown and hard residue drop off onto a part, which I find amusing. Connection still fine). Even if I FORGET I have a huge drop hanging on the end and start a fine pitch IC, I can stop in time, flick the blob of solder off the iron, and still BING. Done. With too much solder you just tilt the tip a little more away from the IC and get a few extra rows of pins to boot.With every other other tip I have used, they can only suck small bridges by carefully dragging the solder down to the tip of the pin, following the contour of the end of the pin down to the pcb, then away. A very delicate affair, and one that is all or nothing. Either the bridge comes out, or it's too big and you don't remove any of it. With a large TFO bevel, you just turn the face away from the IC and scoop off the top of the pin with no contact with the pcb. Speed and accuracy don't matter. You can have parkinsons, and you can still remove the blob. And a much larger blob, to boot! And if the blob is so huge, you can't get it, well, that's impossible. If you wipe the tip clean, you will get a big chunk of it each time; it's not all or nothing. Repeat as necessary. In fact, don't bother. Just continue soldering the rest of the board, and when your tip runs out of solder, use the blob to refill.So I'm a pretty big fan of this tip. OP, of my soldering iron tips, I keep 4 TFO bevels of various sizes on my carrier. Then a bent conical (hook?), a knife, and a large regular bevel for the big through hole. I don't do a lot of through hole stuff. For a one-tip do-all SMD tip, I would have to give the nod to the bent conical. That said, I rarely use mine, but it's comforting to know it's there.This silly season, I have been doing a silly amount of pcb assembly. I almost bit off more than I can chew. I hand soldered 3000 components in a 36 hour period earlier this week, and I have the last IC for the board arriving today or tomorrow.

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2015, 09:32:57 pm
content: Quote from: KL27x on December 10, 2015, 08:03:20 pmThey're different; a spoon starts out as a hoof during manufacture, but they then hollow the face out prior to plating. Minor difference from a manufacturing POV, but it makes a notable difference when drag soldering, as it has an even greater affinity for wicking the solder from between the pins than a regular hoof (tinned face only or tinned face & side).IIRC, he uses a Hakko FX-951 with aT15-BC3(3mm, 45degree bevel/hoof, standard tinning). If it's 60degree, then it's aT15-BC28(2.8mm across the face), but it doesn't look like 60 degrees to me in the videos. They offer hoofs (BC/C shape), in both standard plating and as tinned face only, such as the T15-BCF3 (F = face only in the P/N). They also offer spoon types specifically for drag soldering (BCM/CM shape);T15-BCM3is the larger of the two offered, and the tinning goes up the side a couple of mm.Quote from: KL27x on December 10, 2015, 08:03:20 pmI don't do the paper towel thing either; I've both brass wool and damp sponge (a sponge can clean as well as a paper towel though). Personally, I find the trick is less about tip prep, and more about getting the volume of flux right. Too little, and it bridges like crazy. Just right or even too much make a beautiful job of it (too much flux = bigger mess to clean up and is more expensive over time is all).Ball size on the tip is important too, but not as critical as the amount of flux applied to the joints. Of the different methods I've tried for flux application, I like using a brush pen the most as it offers excellent control & precision IME (BON-102 has a fine point at the tip, and flux volume is controlled by how hard you squeeze it).Quote from: KL27x on December 10, 2015, 08:03:20 pmI get your liking the tinned face only version; I do as well.But if you're just using it for drag soldering, the specific drag tips with a hollow in the face are even better at wicking the solder out to make some gorgeous filets on IC pins (I expect you'd really like it, should you get the chance to try one). They're even easier to use than a hoof/bevel (not drastically, but enough you'll notice). The downside is they're task specific, unlike a bevel/hoof, which is a lot more versatile regarding jobs it does well.Quote from: KL27x on December 10, 2015, 08:03:20 pmDefinitely a PITA. But a bent conical is brilliant for this, should the need occur.But again, this is where I find flux more critical than the size of the solder ball or tip shape (you can drag with a knife, chisel, bent conical, hoof/bevel, or specialized tip for drag soldering).Quote from: KL27x on December 10, 2015, 08:03:20 pmWeller only offers 2 hoofs in the LT series, but they're damn useful.Bent conical (also highly fond of this shape for SMD work) and knife shapes are nice too. Chuck in some chisels in various sizes, including a couple of bent chisels, and a dedicated drag tip (2 sizes in my case), and I've been able to tackle any joint I've encountered thus far.Hand placing and soldering that many components is libel to put you in the Looney bin.

author: fredboivin
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2015, 09:51:17 pm
content: I don't think I'll regret my 1.8mm chisel, but the bent conical (C245029 or C245034) will definetly be my next purchase.I can't wait to try that new tinned tip only bevel!

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2015, 09:54:14 pm
content: So bevel == hoof?QuoteNot as quickly as ME trying to stencil paste and hand place that many parts. Ughh. I moved my reflow oven into storage to make more space for boards.I got to batch processing them only a couple of component/values at a time, covering every handy flat surface with boards. Dotting them with a brush (yeah, brush made a noticeable improvement in consistency and overall efficiency). Then placing the components on all the boards. Then the soldering. When done with the right rate, the flux would dry enough to keep the parts on the board even if slightly mishandled!OP: I think you'll like it. I remember being amazed. Then pissed that I didn't know about it sooner.I have a small "coaster" of wood covered with a layer of bare FR-4 for my solder pickup. What I have done is to use double-sided tape to stick a strip of copper clad along one edge, then solder some heavy gauge solder wire to the strip.After some use, the entire surface of the board gets covered with flux, and it is very handy. But you can jump start it by spreading flux around the board. And then the fun really starts.So when your TFO bevel has been sitting for awhile when you pick it up, you can just touch it to the flux on the board when you're ready to solder. Then flick the bead off, if you need to do an IC. And if you aim the bead at the board, it will bounce and roll around a little while solidifing into a shiny round bead, instead of snowflake splatter. If you get a bead that's too big/unwieldy, it is easier to fling it hard at the board to make it break into a bunch of little solder balls than trying to cut it in half.It gets to the point where I will look at the board and pick up the right size bead for the job. Especially when drag soldering ICs, sometime you just want to pick up a tiny bead.Just be careful you don't get too close to the board, especially with the smaller tips. You can put a ding in the edge, lol.

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2015, 10:39:09 pm
content: Quote from: KL27x on December 10, 2015, 09:54:14 pmYes.Just different names used by marketing/sales depts..

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2015, 08:34:30 pm
content: Ok. A horse's hoof is concave. So I thought hoof == spoon, lol.Well, my chips came yesterday. And a few hours later, they were all installed. I got bored and having this thread in my head, I tried my regular bevel halfway through. You're right. You can drag solder with just about any tip. I think I got the hang of the regular bevel after about 50-60 IC's. If you get too much solder, you can get the tip on the end of the pins, like you might drag solder with a chisel or a knife tip, which reduces the propensity of bridging. And if you make a big bridge, you can remove it with the regular bevel, too. It just takes more cleaning/flicking of the tip to suck out a significant amount of solder, touching the end of the pins to suck out a little at a time.It's just easier/faster with the TFO. Kind of like the difference between using a 2mm TFO vs 3mm. If you have room, the larger tip will be less maintenance and fuss. So I switched back to finish. I hear they make a spoon for the 888 that is available at least in Japan, but I haven't seen it and don't see it listed on Hakko website tip selector for T18.I also got enough practice in this run to confidently solder and inspect both rows of pins without turning the board. I guess I'll find out later if I introduced any errors.Side note: I have unsuccessfully tried to convert a regular hoof into a TFO for my older generic station. I have tinned just the face and left the iron on 400 degrees for several hours. I have used a 400 grit emery board. I have used a stone file. The plating is way thicker than I would have guessed! At least on the tip in question, it's more of a bi-metal construction than anything I would call a plating. I eventually got to the copper core - oops, but the iron is on the order of mils thick, not microns.Edit: Looking at my Hakko tips, the part that doesn't carry solder actually has a covering over it, rather than the other way around. So I guess I was going about that backwards.

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2015, 03:08:47 am
content: Quote from: KL27x on December 11, 2015, 08:34:30 pmThere are actually 2 sizes available, but both are part of the 900M series.900M-T-3CM900M-T-2CM (this size is harder to find, and discontinued at TEquipment.net)Quote from: KL27x on December 11, 2015, 08:34:30 pmHakko's plating is thick; possibly the thickest out there. The final electroplated layer is chrome, except for where it's tinned since solder doesn't stick to chrome.

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2015, 08:51:21 pm
content: QuoteThanks!In retrospect, I think someone already gave me this link and I have forgotten. I had this tip in my cart already, lol. I think I balked at the shipping and was waiting until I needed to buy something else.