Rigol DHO914S vs Siglent SDS1104X-E hands-on (I have both) - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: scopestuff
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: October 15, 2023, 10:40:50 pm
content: I just received the DHO914S the other day so I've been able to compare it against the SDS 1104X-E I already had. I put together a quick blog post about it over here:https://www.sebortiz.com/post/rigol_vs_siglent/but what folks on this forum might be specifically interested is that blog post has notes on how to get wifi working on the DHO914S, since it's not really officially supported. If you have any other things you want me to try/compare with the new scope let me know. The one thing I don't have on hand yet is the logic analyzer probe (so it might be a little while before I can answer any questions about that).

author: scopestuff
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: October 15, 2023, 11:24:45 pm
content: Another quick size comparison between the two scopes

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2023, 11:35:44 pm
content: I'm curious what you think about the performance of their web consoles compared to each other. Including update time (lag vs. real time), ease of use, screen captures, etc.

author: scopestuff
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: October 16, 2023, 12:19:43 am
content: Both web consoles are basically lag free and update immediately (I tried on a 1gig wired network and using wifi), but the refresh rate seems a bit faster on the Rigol. The main issue for me on the SDS1104xe is that the Siglent web console doesn't render properly in Chrome on linux, all you initially see is the waveform part of the display which doesn't accept clicks, so it makes it look like it's not working at all. What is actually going on is that all the buttons/controlled are rendered outside of the area of what you initially see, so you have to scroll horizontally to the right to see any controls. I attached a screenshot showing how wide the window has to be for siglent so you can actually interact with the scope controls. A side effect of the scope not having a touchscreen- the web control replicates the hardware knobs and buttons to the right of the display, so you need a really wide window. The other screenshot shows you have to click on the little arrow button at the top right of the window for the scope controls to be visible, the fullscreen button doesn't work because it only puts the waveform part of the display fullscreen.Screen captures were easier for me on the Rigol, because of the rendering bug on the siglent. But Rigol has its own bug involving screen recording- if you turn on screen recording while you're using the web control to drive the scope, the web control window stops updating. Also Rigol doesn't seem to have a way to save waveforms from the web UI, only screenshots and videos. If you save a waveform on the Rigol directly, however, it at least lets you choose the file format as .bin, .csv, or .wfm and you can choose whether the data source is the screen or the capture memory. A more basic issue as far as connecting to a network in the first place is that Siglent has native support for USB wifi dongles, but the Rigol does not. You can get wifi working on the Rigol (using the steps in that blog post I linked) but the scope UI will not give you any indication that it's enabled/working.

author: mwb1100
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2023, 01:05:49 am
content: Quote from: scopestuff on October 15, 2023, 10:40:50 pmWhat specific wifi adapter did you use? Was it the TP-Link TL-WN725N that is supported by the SDS1104X-E? The nice thing about that one (aside from also working on the SDS1104X-E) is that it's only $10 on Amazon.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2023, 01:26:52 am
content: Quote from: scopestuff on October 16, 2023, 12:19:43 amNo bugs here and seems you have a bit more to learn about SDS1104X-E, its webserver and features in general.You might be well advised to study up on its full feature set:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1104x-e-in-depth-review/Webserver control has never been by touch and instead a replication of the front panel buttons plus a few additional virtual buttons plus you have a browser scaling issue easily addressed with Ctrl and mouse scroll wheel.The Save/Recall menu provides many different save file formats.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2023, 01:34:58 am
content: Quote from: scopestuff on October 16, 2023, 12:19:43 amI would try zooming the screen (ctrl and + or - usually, or ctrl + mouse wheel) to see if that solves your issue. It sounds like it's a screen resolution problem.Quote from: tautech on October 16, 2023, 01:26:52 amI think he's referring to the fact that the touchscreen models are much easier to control via the web console, which is true. On my SDS2k+ the controls mimic the ability to touch anywhere on the virtual screen, which is much better than the 1104X-E's control capability.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2023, 01:38:51 am
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on October 16, 2023, 01:34:58 amYup, the webserver has 3 modes, each for a different need.

author: scopestuff
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: October 16, 2023, 02:38:14 am
content: Quote from: tautech on October 16, 2023, 01:26:52 amI wasn't stating that the fact the hardware controls are displayed is a bug, I'm saying the way controls get rendered seems like it might either be a bug or just not ideal. Specifically in Linux on chrome 116.05845.14, this is the behavior I see: when you first load the web control view ctrl+scroll is not detected when your cursor is over the waveform view itself, when the cursor is anywhere else on screen you can ctrl+scroll zoom the entire webpage the way you normally can in chrome in general, so in the initial view, controls/buttons are not visible and ctrl+scroll zooming does not fix that because the waveform area is not actually expanding to reveal controls no matter how you zoom. I assume you are saying this is one of the web UI's 3 modes and intentional, which makes sense. The next 2 behaviors/modes seem odd.There is also the fullscreen button with 4 arrows at the lower right corner, when you click that, again only the waveform section gets shown fullscreen so you can't see the controls and ctrl+scroll is not detected so you can't zoom here either and still cannot access the buttons, I assume that is also intentional and just how fullscreen mode is supposed to work(?) Now finally the 3rd mode where you click the expand arrow in the upper right to show controls: this also cannot be ctrl+scroll zoomed while it's expanded because as soon as you initiate scroll zoom the button view collapses and you're back to only seeing the waveform. Resizing the browser window while the controls are displayed also collapses them, so the only way to be able to see the controls is make sure your browser window is wide enough first or scroll zoom while the controls are collapsed, then click the expand button in the upper right corner.The statement about file formats supported by the Rigol was not a comparison against the Siglent, it was simply stating that at least waveform save sort of still works, you just have to do it directly on the scope not through the web UI. This was a criticism of the Rigol and had nothing to do with the Siglent- saving waveforms there is easy.

author: scopestuff
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: October 16, 2023, 02:49:44 am
content: Quote from: mwb1100 on October 16, 2023, 01:05:49 amYeah, the $10 WN725N off amazon works, I dug through the kernel modules that are on the scope and it looks like RTL8188EU (WN725N) is the only driver there. I got 2 of those dongles and not sure if it's just my luck or a manufacturing defect but they both were tough to insert and virtually impossible to remove once inserted.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2023, 07:24:45 am
content: Quote from: scopestuff on October 16, 2023, 02:38:14 amIt works exactly as intended.QuoteW10 and Chrome 118.0.5993.71 here.At the landing page is where we adjust display scaling to have space to expand the instrument controls for them to be entirely on one display.You need understand the 3 websaver display modes and how to best use each.Instrument landing page from where launch is made of full screen (projector mode) or instrument control (top right pop out tab) where full instrument control is available plus the additional virtual buttons which are added features for ease of use.Most useful is the orange Screen Save which takes a screenshot just like the blue Print button but instead dumps it directly to the browsers Download folder. This is ideally suited to efficient documentation as a USB stick is no longer required.Full screen projector mode. Esc to exit.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2023, 07:33:52 am
content: Quote from: tautech on October 16, 2023, 07:24:45 amIf it needs explaining then it's not a great design.Quote from: tautech on October 16, 2023, 07:24:45 amDo you need full HD screen width to use that? For a device which is 800x480 pixels?

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2023, 03:31:04 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on October 16, 2023, 07:33:52 amAnd by that logic all scopes are garbage because they all come with manuals. 🤣🤣🤣Quote from: Fungus on October 16, 2023, 07:33:52 amSeriously? I appreciate a good trolling, but none of the controls he showed on the extended section are on the screen of the actual scope, and the scope's resolution is irrelevant at that point.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2023, 04:36:57 pm
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on October 16, 2023, 03:31:04 pmI don't know many web pages that come with manuals.Quote from: Fungus on October 16, 2023, 07:33:52 amIf the screenshots posted are real then half of the controls would be outside the window on an awful lot of monitors/laptops.Have you looked at how much wasted space there is in that UI?

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2023, 05:09:45 pm
content: Before I retired, corporate management wanted to improve our user interfaces (which were a bit old-fashioned) and recommended a good book on the topic:"The Design of Everyday Things" by Don Norman (now in a revised edition from 2013, Basic Books or MIT Press).One of his dicta was that "any telephone that needs instructions is a failed design".Shortly thereafter, management had a new telephone system installed that required a 90 minute training session.Of course, the big wheels were too busy to attend those sessions, so their secretaries had to transfer calls.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2023, 07:01:28 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on October 16, 2023, 04:36:57 pmMy day job is web design/programming. I don't think my professional opinion on that subject is required to point out that we're discussing oscilloscopes, not web sites.Quote from: Fungus on October 16, 2023, 04:36:57 pmI agree with you, the layout could certainly be improved. However, zooming in and out fixes any issues with screen sizes. Also, almost any laptop in the last decade has at least HD screens. If you're using a 20 year old laptop to run your scope, zoom out.The layout/web server is much nicer on the higher end scopes, and all of them from all brands tend to benefit from nicer monitors.

author: scopestuff
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: October 16, 2023, 09:08:43 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on October 16, 2023, 07:24:45 amYeah, the screen save feature on the 1104 is super convenient, same with the ability to directly save waveform files (unfortunate that Rigol doesn't seem to have that waveform save in their web UI).

author: Muttley Snickers
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 17, 2023, 02:41:40 am
content: Does anybody know whether either of these scopes can be viewed on a Smart TV over a local network?I understand that the Rigol has a HDMI output so direct connection is possible for remote viewing, the Siglent doesn't have a remote screen output other than a PC connection so I wondered if it could be viewed on certain Smart TVs with a compatible browser.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2023, 02:57:44 am
content: Quote from: Muttley Snickers on October 17, 2023, 02:41:40 amBoth of them should work.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2023, 03:09:27 am
content: Quote from: Muttley Snickers on October 17, 2023, 02:41:40 amNow cursed 679 times.SO had to be asked to surrender 50" LG for a minute and connected no issue via SDS1104X-E on WiFi to LAN on which TV was connected.Too easy. Will send pic by email should you need proof Muttley. < sent.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2023, 06:06:25 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on October 17, 2023, 02:57:44 amHaving said that: One of these two will show the scope on just half the TV and worsk via a dorky set of HTML buttons off to one side, the other one only shows the 'scope screen and is designed to be used with a mouse.

author: Neutrion
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2023, 11:44:18 am
content: Hi Scopestuff!Please do a waveform update rate comparison with both, using single/many channels, both with small and max amount of memory depth. Similarly how Perorma01 did it in his in depth review of the 1104x-e just not only with max memory, and also with more than two channels enabled.Well only if you have the time and motivation, but you were the one who opened tis topic, so I suppose you will not be bored during the next weeks.Interesting would be to know also, whether if you zoom in on the Rigol on the signal vertically, or have it offset, how it affects the measurements including maybe also math. Like if you use the probes for differential measurements with the math channel, and would like to use it that way, can you use and measure the math channel properly? Zooming in out, triggering etc.Thanks in advance!

author: asmi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2023, 07:03:16 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on October 16, 2023, 07:24:45 amWhen the customer tells you that something is wrong, you shut up, listen and take notes, instead of making lousy excusesQuote from: tautech on October 16, 2023, 07:24:45 amNo, user doesn't NEED to understand anything - it's your JOB to make sure it's easy to use to not require any "explanations"

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2023, 08:37:44 pm
content: Quote from: asmi on October 18, 2023, 07:03:16 pmThat's a comically poor attitude. That's like saying that my lack of skill with an oscilloscope is Siglent's fault. I can't follow the logic there.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2023, 08:46:25 pm
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on October 18, 2023, 08:37:44 pmYeah comparing webservers in touch screen scopes vs normal scopes is like apples vs oranges, they are quite different and require different engineering/programming solutions for usable functionality.Then we have the situation of a 2017 vs 2023 design......

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2023, 08:51:43 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on October 18, 2023, 08:46:25 pmDon't be silly, everybody knows vintage is better!

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2023, 10:03:54 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on October 18, 2023, 08:46:25 pmNeither of them should be difficult to use.nb. We're not talking about using the scope here, obviously that needs knowledge/training, we're talking about using the web browser interface to the 'scope. There's no reason that can't be transparent to the user.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2023, 10:08:44 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on October 18, 2023, 10:03:54 pmYou're still talking about using the scope. You're specifically talking about using the scope via a web console. One interface or another, you're still controlling the scope. That's the entire point. Yes, web interfaces designed today are better than those designed 6 years ago, at least to some degree.Neither of them are difficult to use, and both come with learning curves. Nitpicking over something as trivial is using the zoom control on a web browser is silly.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2023, 10:13:34 pm
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on October 18, 2023, 10:08:44 pmYes, because that's what the original complaint was.Somebody couldn't figure out how to use it.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2023, 10:28:27 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on October 18, 2023, 10:13:34 pmCorrect, and then it was explained. 🤷

author: asmi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2023, 10:38:42 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on October 18, 2023, 08:46:25 pmYes, and touch interface works much better in web.Quote from: tautech on October 18, 2023, 08:46:25 pmThat is manufacturer's problem, not customer's.

author: asmi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2023, 10:41:25 pm
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on October 18, 2023, 08:37:44 pmThat's the reality. Making interface as user-friendly as possible is a manufacturer's problem, not user's.Quote from: KungFuJosh on October 18, 2023, 08:37:44 pmYep, you got it right. If Siglent devices suck so bad that you need to read a manual to use even basic functions, it's place is in the trash bin.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2023, 10:45:34 pm
content: Quote from: asmi on October 18, 2023, 10:38:42 pmHow can that be ?2 different UI's and physical designs and 2 different webservers < they can never be expected to work the same.The HW sets what is possible with SW.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2023, 11:03:37 pm
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on October 18, 2023, 10:28:27 pmAnd apparently I'm the only one who thinks that shouldn't need explaining, that it's badly designed if it does.Oh, well.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2023, 11:40:08 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on October 18, 2023, 11:03:37 pmWell, for one thing, the issue is a screen resolution / browser thing. I agree with you that the dated design of the 2017 scope could be improved, but if a person has an issue using different browsers and that browser's basic functionality, you can't assume the scope manufacturer will cover all those bases.In the end it's a lazy argument because you and I prefer different scope brands. My SDS2504XP web interface is significantly better, but it's a newer, more expensive touch-screen scope. I do get where you're coming from though, because my hate for rigol was birthed from the 1054Z and it's terrible interface/web console. Obviously the newer stuff gets, the better it is, from both brands.

author: asmi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2023, 04:32:46 am
content: Quote from: tautech on October 18, 2023, 10:45:34 pmThey absolutely can. There are no technical reasons why on-device interface has to match web interface. Infact it SHOULD be different because it's used with different controls, and controls always drive UX (not the other way around). But that seems to be too hard of a concept to grasp by Siglent developers.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2023, 07:08:12 am
content: Quote from: asmi on October 19, 2023, 04:32:46 amConsider this:User familiarity with the physical UI is replicated as best as possible with webserver operation. < Is that not desirable ?Why would a user want/need to learn a different way to operate their instrument ?

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2023, 09:07:04 am
content: Quote from: asmi on October 19, 2023, 04:32:46 amYou do realize that major difference in using two scopes comes from the fact that one is knob based classic design and other is a touch screen scope...How on earth was Siglent supposed to make GUI in Web look similar to and make it drive like a touchscreen scope made 6 years later... By using time machine?.When they released that scope it had best Web control on market.Do you propose that Siglent develops completely different web only interface that does not resemble how scope looks to make it pretend it is a touch screen scope made by different manufacturer?What the heck are you talking about?

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2023, 01:25:08 pm
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on October 19, 2023, 09:07:04 amNot only that, but consider the fact that the web console on the touch screen scopes is controlling a virtual mouse on the scope's screen. There is no mouse support on the older scopes, so that entire concept immediately fails.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2023, 02:35:58 pm
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on October 19, 2023, 01:25:08 pmYes, that's understood.But... there shouldn't be an excuse fornot being able to figure out how to use itvia. the web page.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2023, 04:37:40 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on October 19, 2023, 02:35:58 pmThat is typically referred to as aPEBKAC error. 🤷

author: asmi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2023, 10:59:19 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on October 19, 2023, 07:08:12 amOnly if it doesn't hurt user experience. Which in this case it does.Quote from: tautech on October 19, 2023, 07:08:12 amBecause it leads to better user experience.

author: asmi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2023, 11:05:53 pm
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on October 19, 2023, 09:07:04 amThat is irrelevant.Quote from: 2N3055 on October 19, 2023, 09:07:04 amThis is only a matter of software update.Quote from: 2N3055 on October 19, 2023, 09:07:04 amObviously it sucks.Quote from: 2N3055 on October 19, 2023, 09:07:04 amNow this is pure nonsense. There is no reason why one web interface has to look similar to another one, just that it needs to provide good user experience. It should've been like that in the very beginning, because in 2017 people used the very same controls for web pages that they use today.

author: mwb1100
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2023, 11:27:15 pm
content: I'm not a moderator, but I think the oscilloscope web interface war should be dropped. Or taken to its own thread.What it is now is people going back and forth saying the equivalent of "less filling"/"tastes great!".

author: scopestuff
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: October 20, 2023, 11:18:44 pm
content: Quote from: Neutrion on October 17, 2023, 11:44:18 amI can give it a shot- do you have a link to the post you mentioned? I tried searching for "Perorma01" and couldn't find anything. Just coming back to this thread at the end of the workweek and noticing it's devolved into hyperfixation on web UI, that was definitely not my intent, just something mentioned offhandedly, since I use the scope hands-on most of the time. There are more significant functional differences I'm surprised no one asked about like how segmented memory is handled in each scope, etc.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2023, 11:23:01 pm
content: Quote from: scopestuff on October 20, 2023, 11:18:44 pmSee reply #5 for the link to Performa01's thread.

author: Neutrion
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2023, 11:59:17 am
content: Thanks for ansvering the question, of course I was talking about Performa01 and not Perorma01.This is the link:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1104x-e-in-depth-review/Now he didn't do much testing with differential measurements, as with 8bit it can be problematic, and theoretically this is where 12 bit could be useful, but reading about all the bugs in the Rigol, I am not shure wheter it is working properly. Talking about general accuracy or measurements with offset channels, or maybe an even slower waveform update rate with math than what we could already see in Daves Test. (It seems that under equal general circumstances and settings the waveform update rate of the DHO is about 1/5-th of the Siglent. but no one did a proper comparison yet.)