Pick and Place Machines from China, what are your shipping and Duty fees to US? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Proto
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 26, 2018, 03:13:12 am
content: I'm in the middle of a deal to purchase a SMT660 pick and place machine. Has anyone been able to take advantage of free shipping like YX advertises on Alibaba and AliExpress? I've been told it's not real and is intended to drive customers to them.Another question is whether there is a Tariff on this type equipment. The Harmonized Tariff document from US Customs and Boarder Patrol has a specific line item for electronic pick and place machines indicating no tariff in one column and 35% in another column. The second column seems to apply to equipment for making bicycles which looks out of place.Anyway, what have some of you been paying in shipping and duty fees for specific machines if I may ask. This is a costly expenditure on a 1100 lb product and I don't want to get caught with a high Tariff before or after Trumps tariffs go into effect, which is another difficult thing to figure out. Again, I think it has been $0 USD.

author: rx8pilot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 26, 2018, 03:23:02 am
content: These things can be hard to get reliable answers for. A conversation I recently had with a fellow who purchased a CNC machine was surprised with a barrage of expenses when it landed on the west coast of the USACurious about this as well. What is the cost of the system?Short and misplld from my mobile......

author: DerekG
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 26, 2018, 03:32:46 am
content: Quote from: Proto on March 26, 2018, 03:13:12 amYou should speak with a customs import agent. He will know which tariff applies once you give him the details about the PnP machine you wish to import.

author: Proto
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 26, 2018, 03:43:11 am
content: Thanks RXpilot,Of course I should have started with my costs.Price is 11,900 with ball screw drive (+700 over standard belt drive) and 15 x 8mm feeders. The feeders are due to a sale they were running. I am using Alibaba with Trade Assurance to keep the seller's skin in the game and make sure I receive it.Regards,Proto

author: Proto
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 26, 2018, 04:06:50 am
content: Yes, I am set to make enough calls tomorrow to sort this out with shipping companies, Customs and Border Patrol and Brokers. I'm just trying to confirm what I now think which could be horribly wrong. Will share whatever I find out especially because so many of us are buying pnp machines in the China market.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 26, 2018, 08:04:21 am
content: Quote from: Proto on March 26, 2018, 03:13:12 amRemember that "Pick and place" can apply to much bigger things than putting electronic compionents on boards. Like robot arms for instance.

author: mrpackethead
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 26, 2018, 08:54:52 am
content: ABOUT TO get much much more expesnive!

author: Smallsmt
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 26, 2018, 11:30:54 am
content: We use HS code 847950 industrial robots, not elsewhere specified or includedThis code has 2,5% import tax.Please ask your customs agent maybe it got changed these days because of new US tax rates.https://hts.usitc.gov/?query=847950

author: theatrus
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 26, 2018, 02:41:07 pm
content: Not a customs broker, but wouldn't 8479.89.92 be a better code? "Automated electronic component placement machines of a kind used solely or principally for the manufacture of printed circuit assemblies"

author: Proto
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 26, 2018, 03:37:28 pm
content: Spot on - the 8479.89.92 classification code is very specific to pick and place machines for electronic PCB assemblies and there is no tariff unless imported from a country where no trade agreement exists. The latter includes Cuba and North Korea for now where the tariff would be 35% in Column 2. It is further down the list in section or chapter 16 of the "Harmonized Tariff Schedule of the United States (2018) Revision 1.2 (Effective Date 03/01/2018)."Smallsmt - not sure why you would not use this code. The exporter gets the ball rolling in export paperwork so I will make sure to influence this decision.

author: Smallsmt
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 26, 2018, 07:49:13 pm
content: QuoteWe used the general code because caused less problems in all other country's and has 1,7% import duty tax in EU only.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 26, 2018, 09:44:29 pm
content: Quote from: Smallsmt on March 26, 2018, 07:49:13 pmIs it legal to use a generic code where there is a product-specific one?

author: rx8pilot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 26, 2018, 10:55:24 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on March 26, 2018, 09:44:29 pmIt is such a challenge to get reliable information. I have not asked this specific question, but I did notice that with similar questions you will get a variety of answers depending on who you call. You may get a variety of answers from the same source ranging from 'don't worry about it' to 'we will confiscate your parcel'.I have loosely arrived at the conclusion that everyone working in customs, logistics, shipping, etc hate their lives and want to project that on everyone else as cruel revenge.

author: Proto
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 27, 2018, 01:27:09 am
content: Hello Mike,Here is a link to Section XVI, Chapter 84 of the Harmonized Tariff Schedule of the United States on the International Trade Commission site.https://hts.usitc.gov/currentPNP machines are on page 84-102. Robots are on page 84-101. This is but one chapter of a huge classification system of documents.There really is a good set of information between this site and the Customs and Border Patrol Sites as you sort through it. This FAQ link is helpful:https://www.usitc.gov/faqs/tariff_affairs_faqs.htm.Another good, short document pertains to buying over the Internet (caveat emptor).Excerpted below is a reasonable answer to your question about the process for choosing a product classification to determine the applicable duty. It is by successive approximation and your shippers choice is subject to being re-interpreted on entry to the US.Some products are named in the Tariff Schedule and can be found by searching for the name. Be aware, however, that finding a name of a product does not guarantee a correct classification. Consider the classification of a kitchen paring knife with a ceramic blade. Either a word search or casual browsing through the Tariff Schedule might lead to heading 8211 ("Knives with cutting blades, serrated or not, . . . ."). However, Chapter 82 Note 1 excludes articles with a blade of ceramic from Chapter 82. The proper classification is in Chapter 69 as an article of ceramics.A systematic method for classification is described below, using the General Rules of Interpretation (GRI) and Additional U.S. Rules of Interpretation (at the beginning of the Tariff Schedule) and the appropriate legal descriptions and notes in Chapters 1 to 97.Consider the classification of a purebred dog being imported for breeding. First, find four-digit headings where the product is described. Look for headings in Chapter 1, "Live Animals." [Note that according to GRI 1, some texts in the Tariff Schedule (e.g. chapter titles) are useful to find appropriate headings but have no legal significance.]At this stage, compare only descriptions at the four digit, "non-indented" heading level, and read the descriptions of each heading until you decide which one covers the imported product most specifically. For example, if you consider heading 0101 ("Live horses, asses, mules and hinnies"), the description “Purebred breeding animals” in subheading 0101.10 only relates to horses, etc. Even if the dog in question is a purebred breeding animal, it cannot be classified anywhere within heading 0101 because it is not described in the non-indented text."Dogs" are not mentioned by name in any of the four-digit headings, but are described by the category "other live animals" ( heading 0106); there is no other possible provision in the schedule. This heading is a residual or "basket" category. The meaning of "other in this heading is derived by excluding the things named in all the headings that precede it. [Thus, it is often not possible to describe by a short simple statement what is included within many tariff classification numbers–especially the "baskets."]If instead a product is described equally closely by more than one four-digit heading, check relevant section and chapter notes for definitions or exclusions that may eliminate some four-digit headings. If necessary, apply GRI's to decide which of the remaining four-digit headings applies.After choosing a four-digit heading, compare the descriptive texts of that heading that appear at the first level of indentation to find the most specific category. Then compare descriptions at the second level of indentation, and so forth. Again, apply the GRI’s as appropriate in deciding between equally specific subheadings. [Six-digit and eight-digit categories are called "subheadings."]Although, in principle, articles can be classified in only one place, classification often requires interpretation and judgment. U.S. Customs and Border Protection (CBP) has authority to make classification decisions and may disagree with a reasonable classification offered by the importer. Published Customs rulings (http://rulings.cbp.gov) are often useful to see how Customs looks at the issues. USITC does not issue classification decisions.

author: Smallsmt
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 27, 2018, 05:43:08 am
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on March 26, 2018, 09:44:29 pmSure it is, if the custom officer won't accept the generic code he will tell you to change.

author: Proto
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 27, 2018, 06:25:17 am
content: Whatever works is fine until it doesn't. You certainly have more experience at this than any of us, and as you said in multiple geographies.

author: mrpackethead
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 27, 2018, 06:36:00 am
content: Quote from: Smallsmt on March 27, 2018, 05:43:08 amHows your machine going?

author: Proto
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 27, 2018, 08:20:00 am
content: It's ordered. Coming by slow boat after it ships in a few days. It's a beast! Door-to-door is $2000 for 1100 lbs.

author: 48X24X48X
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 27, 2018, 01:33:51 pm
content: Quote from: theatrus on March 26, 2018, 02:41:07 pmThanks for pointing this out. It's only 6% GST for us here in Malaysia. No import or sales tax.

author: rx8pilot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 27, 2018, 06:05:04 pm
content: I am very curious how this ends.....The shipping and the performance of the machine after delivery. Hopefully you have time to offer a post-mortem update on the experience.Short and misplld from my mobile......

author: xdave
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 27, 2018, 10:33:57 pm
content: The SMT660 is about 510kg (1,120 lbs) gross weight; approx. 40 feeders can be packed in the same crate which will increase that slightly. I know you've said you've already arranged the shipping now, but I always ask for FOB terms and arrange my own freight forwarder as it will normally be quite a bit cheaper than having the supplier arrange the shipping, and it is door-to-door. (Note that the shipper cannot guarantee the duty/taxes that are applied, only advise, so there is always a chance you'll get hit with further fees once it hits home soil. That's another reason to use a forwarder in your own country.)For reference I recently imported 2x SMT660 into the UK for £560 fully insured against loss or damage. The commodity code to use for import is 8479897000. Importing that commodity into the EU is tariff-free (and as others confirmed in the replies above it should be the same for China->US as well).Bringing into the EU I had to pay 20% VAT (a paper cost as I claim it straight back again, but still ties up the cash for a few weeks). I don't know what taxes you would pay in the US.Does the $2,000 USD shipping cost you quote include your VAT-equivalent?$11,900 is the standard price for the ball screw version ($12,900 less the $1,000 discount they always find for you), and I got 20pcs 8x4 feeders included in that price. The trade assurance on Alibaba is now extended until after you receive and inspect the goods as standard, which is handy.I've only set up one machine so far and done basic testing, but so far it seems fairly typical of Chinese equipment in that price range - well put together mechanically, reliable brand electronics, but a bespoke controller board and let down on the human-machine interface. (You will get the newer software with yours that supports the 8 head model, which is slightly less confusing to figure out.) The ball screw variant is so far rock-solid during the highest speed movement (using the patented 'glass of water on top of the chassis' test, aka the 'dinosaur detector' test). Replace the monitor with a 19" EPOS touch screen and it is quite usable (1280x1024 resolution - their software does not scale to anything else). You will need to re-tension the transport belts, but apart from that you can test right out of the box.Note that YX don't make these machines (they may assemble them, but they are not their design - they are the HW-T6SG-64F) so parts are available from a few other suppliers. Interestingly the source manufacturer is a bit more expensive though, and YX always seem to have <3h response times even when China is sleeping.Photo is immediately after delivery so that is what you get out of the box (feeders are extra).

author: Proto
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2018, 01:25:43 am
content: Thanks xdave,Good to know someone who took the plunge on the same SMT660 product.Have 32 feeders coming including 25x 8mmx4, 4x 12mm, 2x16mm and 1x vibration variants.YX is handling all charges door-to-door so we'll see how that works.I like what I can tell about the SMT660's build quality without being in its presence. Hope it doesn't disappoint on the SW side. There was quite a thread on google Groups trashing this part of the package. I took it with a grain of salt. Looks like the SMT660 and 880 SW is different as you state. That's the conclusion I came to. If shipping had been free as advertised, I would have bought the SMT880 for feeder count and automatic inclusion of ball screw drive.Thanks for the case history. I'm sure it's helpful to those stopping by this topic.I'll share my experiences after a bit of start-up time.Best Regards,Proto

author: Proto
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2018, 01:38:31 am
content: Sure - I will provide an update and perhaps some videos.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2018, 07:57:40 am
content: Quote from: Proto on March 28, 2018, 01:25:43 amI don't think we've yet seen any Chinese P&P that doesn't have terrible software. The only variable seems to be how terrible.Although from an Amp Hour episode a while ago with Macrofab, it seems some of the the Big Guys also have terrible software, though maybe it helps them sell training courses!Something I've yet to see is a Chinese machine with one simple feature that was present on the DOS based software on the 20-odd year old predecessor to my Versatronics machine - dealing sensibly with feeder errors.When it has a problem, after retrying a few ( configurable) times, it then carries on to the next feeder to place as much as it can with all the working feeders before stopping and alerting the user to fix all the issues in one go, and then place the remaining parts.I also don't recall seeing any Chinese SW that can show a graphical representation of the PCB and parts, to allow easy editing, omitting, dealing with cross-outs (where the machine doesn't know about the panelisation) etc.I'd also be interested to see if any of the Chinese machines that have a rail PCB feed system deal sensibly with using this to place larger boards in multiple sections. By sensibly I mean give it a single large pick/place file complete with fids and have it split it up into the required sections.

author: mrpackethead
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2018, 07:10:06 am
content: My old yamaha YV100-s are running a text based system. Really hard to learn, but very good once you get to know its quirks.

author: Proto
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2018, 02:42:50 am
content: Thanks Mike for you thoughts on the human interface side and to xdave for the best photo of the machine I've yet to see. These machines include SMT's newest GUI which looks promising. As part of the back and forth dialog before purchase, I received some JPEG's of the interface which includes the one xdave has on on the screen in his photo and 4 others. And for Mike, I would mention that there is a photo in the SMT880 spec that shows a graphic depiction of the circuit board which should be included with the SMT660. I'v been told the SW is the same.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2018, 10:02:52 am
content: It is slightly concerning that they seem to have per-nozzle settings for things that should be feeder and/or component-type specific

author: Proto
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2018, 04:39:09 am
content: Thanks Mike!Will keep that in mind when I receive it and set it up.

author: pasofol
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: February 09, 2019, 11:43:20 pm
content: Hi Proto, any updates on the machine?Was hoping to get something along the same lines. But maybe the SMT460 from yx.How was the shipping and machine overall?

author: Reckless
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2019, 08:14:49 am
content: Quote from: mrpackethead on March 29, 2018, 07:10:06 amIs that same system as the assembleon sapphire YV112?

author: mrpackethead
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2019, 09:12:44 am
content: no idea.