Ashton Forbes Over Unity Challenge - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 10, 2024, 10:50:10 pm
content: This guy has challenged EE's with a large audience to sign an NDA and test his over unity producthttps://x.com/JustXAshton/status/1799175085061747022He is making big waves on Twitter about this, and he seems to have a very large audience of followers who will attack anyone on Twitter who doesn't take him seriously. But I can find no other info on his company, or any info on the product at all.Myself and Mehdi have weighed in, and Mehdi is actually considering giving this guy some oxygen.https://x.com/ElectroBOOMGuy/status/1799519422819778919He claims he'll make a video in few weeks showing input and output powers:https://x.com/JustXAshton/status/1799808842747764973But even though he hasn't done that already, he'll take your money if oyu sign an NDA:https://x.com/JustXAshton/status/1799129725375295648He literally claims perpetual energy, plug it in, get it started, unplug it and it'll run foreverhttps://x.com/JustXAshton/status/1799131644856819753Apparently he's famous as some sort of HM370 conspiricy guy?https://www.youtube.com/@JustXAshton/videosAnd from what several people have said on Twitter, he's not the brain behind this tech and is just doing it as a business opportunity and has been scammed by some free energy nutter who desinged and built it?He's totally non-genuine as he has taken my non-interest as evidence that his device worked, and has called me an embaressment to the EE community for not taking him up on his "challenge"

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 10, 2024, 11:50:46 pm
content: LOLYep, confirmed, doesn't have any technical info at all.

author: langwadt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2024, 11:56:47 pm
content: they have to extract as much money as possible from gullible suckers before it is shown to not work, word salad and conspiracy theories are just part of the scam

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 10, 2024, 11:58:15 pm
content: Quote from: langwadt on June 10, 2024, 11:56:47 pmIndeed.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 11, 2024, 12:34:18 am
content: Poor guy got scammed.But I have no doubt he's a true believer.I've asked him if it's powering his Twitter computer unplugged, and if not, why not

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2024, 01:03:26 am
content: My bet is the setup compares active power initially drawn from mains to reactive power within the demonstration system.(We already know that as usual, this too must initially be connected to mains, or it won't work. I'd guess there are some LED cob lights to represent the "power output", with measurement devices set up to measure their reactive power instead of active power; with the LED light claiming some fantastic power rating. It's exactly the kind of setup that could convince otherwise skeptical people, especially if using name-brand measurement devices like Flukes.)I'll just leave this here, in case I turn out to be right. In case I turn out to be wrong, the embarrassment will teach me to avoid making such bets in the future.

author: ArdWar
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2024, 02:31:49 am
content: This government suppression narrative is just mind bogglingly stupid for me. Sure there are govs who want the current energy trade balance to stay as is. But for every one running surplus trade there would be approximately equal amount who run deficit who will kill to do the opposite.China for one will undoubtedly be the first one to scale it up into gazillion watt to power their industry while getting off their massive external oil/coal dependency if this is possible. And they are certainly not one who plays nice and fair to anyone.As a note this is not "it hasn't happened yet so it must be impossible" fallacy, but an observation that for everyone who don't want it to happen there's also someone who want it to actually happen. In this case practically equally powerful entities.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 11, 2024, 03:17:25 am
content: Can't wait

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 11, 2024, 03:30:28 am
content: Someone told him it works

author: Circlotron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2024, 04:58:23 am
content: Maybe it's a heat pump with a COP of 5 feeding heat to a 40% efficient Stirling engine that drives the heat pump compressor and has a bit left over to drive a generator.

author: Ranayna
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2024, 06:59:09 am
content: Quote from: ArdWar on June 11, 2024, 02:31:49 amI noticed that sentence as wellSo small and looking like an afterthought, but it very much isn't.This gets the conspiracy nuts right by their balls. Those types gobble up most of the stuff if there is even a hint that this might be suppressed by "Big Oil", "Big Solar" or "The Government". Just as long as an apparently big player has some constructed reason to suppress it, it gives this thing a percieced legitimacy.

author: racemaniac
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2024, 07:41:55 am
content: I love how he thinks these kind of devices are not regulated.If it really is over unity, shouldn't power increase exponentially, and this is thus a bomb, which i'm pretty sure is regulated everywhere that you shouldn't build bombs XD.

author: Haenk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2024, 08:39:13 am
content: HmmHe "saw a video", but nobody else is allowed to see it? Why would he need to watch a video, when he has several "devices" at hand?Why would he need toconvinceconvict buyers, when the claimed properties of the "devices" will make them sell on their own?Can we place bets on how this guys pulls his offer to examine the "device", because $reasons?

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 11, 2024, 08:52:22 am
content: He has literally never used one yetSo as I now understand it, some mysterious over-unity guy has shown him a video of his contraption "working", he's absolutely convinced it's over-unity and perpetual motion because the guy told him that someone has used one for years without plugging it in, so he went and formed a company to promote it and issued this video challenge to EE Youtubers to come and debunk it and he doesn't even have one yet nor used one, he's just comissioned the guy to build him one. Wow.

author: ArdWar
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2024, 09:10:43 am
content: I'm convinced that his very roundabout wishy washy claims are a way for him to make those ridiculous claims while allowing him some plausible deniability when the gig eventually get busted. That way he can claim that he was duped by some 3rd party and he was their victim instead of him actuallly being responsible for all this BS. Standard stuff among shady dealers.

author: Haenk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2024, 10:28:44 am
content: Since this has moving parts, this seems like the rotary device made by some italian(?) guy. Or - next level - by some indian guy on Youtube.Either way, why taking the risk showing to someone with expertise to debunk it? Isn't it more convinient to sell it to stoopidly rich people with a lack of knowledge of basic physics principles?I'll google around for that italian(?) guy...Update: My mind did not trick me:https://www.popsci.com/science/article/2012-10/andrea-rossis-black-box/Well, enough of digging in the crap; Forbes and Rossi at least visit and discuss on the same forums, so obviously Rossi is still at it, a decade later.

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2024, 01:20:58 pm
content: The guy reads text off his computer screen, never looks in the camera. And what is the deal with the supposedly billion dollar company using gmail ? And collecting personal data. Next step will be asking for your credit card data.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2024, 01:33:35 pm
content: the closest i ever got to over unity is sitting down after work. sometimes you almost think that it was worth italso knives, and good leather shoes. you really can get your moneys worth from them. like how does it keep on working for so long doing so much?

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2024, 02:25:15 pm
content: Quote from: coppercone2 on June 11, 2024, 01:33:35 pm

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2024, 03:34:07 pm
content: I wonder what made you post about this particular one?I know someone who followed this stuff and was always showing me some new scam. My perspective was the tricks varied but the stories seemed to follow a theme. Most were tied to religion and/or astronomy. The more successful ones build large systems. They always came up with some buzz term to describe their scam. Often the term may actually by used in physics. Zero point energy for example.From the endless supply of scams, my favorites were from Peter Lindemann & John Bedini. Purely from an entertainment value, I liked their story about WWII and the discovery of the Lockridge generator:http://www.rexresearch.com/LockridgeDevice/LockridgeDevice.htmlhttp://perpetualmotionreality.com/wayback:https://web.archive.org/web/20201022053921/http://free-energy.ws/index.phpAnother classic was Andrea Rossi's E-Cat:https://newenergytimes.com/v2/sr/RossiECat/Pied-Piper-of-Bologna-Andrea-Rossis-E-Cat-ColdFusion-Fraud.htmSterling Allan ran a large site and would interview the scammers. Eventually he was arrested for pedophilia which put a stop to it.https://overunity.com/15347/sterling-allan-explains-his-recent-resignations/45/Looks like he is still around preaching religious topics. I assume their beliefs make them an easy target, which is why I often would see the scammers using it:https://www.iindcoming.org/aboutHe has a YT channel, but it doesn't appear to have any of his interviews with the other scammers. I really like the thumbnail for this one. Says it all:https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=it00pHqN7lkHunting around a bit, you can find a few articles but not the podcasts.https://coldfusionnow.org/defkalion-gwere-not-selling-products-we-sell-technology/

author: Ranayna
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2024, 03:48:40 pm
content: Rossi made it even into german media.Most articles were very sceptical, but oh boy... the comment sections were a hootSo many people apparently wanted to believe him.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2024, 04:46:57 pm
content: Quote from: Ranayna on June 11, 2024, 03:48:40 pmI seem to recall that a group from NASA even went to see a demonstration. There was some deal about him setting up in Florida. Someone who was following him turned them over to the government for use of radioactive materials which they claimed to have used but then denied once the government got involved?This site provides milestones of the con:https://newenergytimes.com/v2/sr/RossiECat/Chronology-and-Dramatis-Personae-in-Andrea-Rossis-Confidence-Game.shtml

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2024, 04:48:21 pm
content: QuoteWow, it reallyisover unity!

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2024, 09:58:29 pm
content: "Aether tech"?Yet another one with this aether bullshit?

author: schmitt trigger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2024, 10:11:45 pm
content: The only common trait in perpetual motion machines, is the perpetual gullibility of people.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 11, 2024, 11:09:43 pm
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on June 11, 2024, 03:34:07 pmBecause it was a big thing that blew up on Twitter. If you aren't on Twitter then you wouldn't know. Mehdi from Elecroboom even indicated that he was interested and was engaged in the discussion.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2024, 11:24:26 pm
content: Correct, no Twitter account. I could not even view the links you provided, something about Firefox incompatibility.

author: bitwelder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2024, 02:15:17 pm
content: Does he says at least how much "overunity" is his contraption?1.01? 1.1? 10? 1000?

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2024, 03:37:23 pm
content: whos to say on day over unity wont be acheviable,there plenty of stuff we take for granted that not that long ago would have you done for witchcraft. Going by the news reports on fusion power you'd believe were there with the claims of more energy out than put in.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2024, 04:08:05 pm
content: Quote from: themadhippy on June 13, 2024, 03:37:23 pmThe fusion development claims of more energy out than energy in are analogous to stating that the yield from an explosive is greater than the energy required to detonate the dynamite.If that requirement is not met, the fusion system is not useful, but meeting that requirement violates no basic physical law.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2024, 04:58:43 pm
content: Quote from: bitwelder on June 13, 2024, 02:15:17 pmThis is the point. As soon as you might achieve even 1% over unity, then by the principle of compound multiplication there is no limit and you could achieve infinite over unity.Quote from: themadhippy on June 13, 2024, 03:37:23 pmI think the reasoning above is why it can never be possible. Since any amount of over unity is equivalent to infinite over unity, and infinite over unity is unreasonable, it cannot happen.

author: Circlotron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2024, 11:41:39 pm
content: Quote from: themadhippy on June 13, 2024, 03:37:23 pmFor example, once upon a time a vacuum was considered the supreme example of nothingness. Now we are lead to believe that in a vacuum, particles can randomly jump in and out of existence. Something like that.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2024, 12:10:26 am
content: Quote from: Circlotron on June 13, 2024, 11:41:39 pmYes, which explains why a lot of neural activity is actually measurable even in seemingly completely empty brains.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 14, 2024, 01:39:38 am
content: Quote from: bitwelder on June 13, 2024, 02:15:17 pmNo info, but he claims that once it's running you can disconnect it and you get perpetual energy outAlthough when I challened him on this he admitted he had not actually done himself, as you doesn't even have it his own unit, but the guy who designed it told him it worksYes, this is actualyl the level of person we are dealing with here. Based on never havign tried it himself he formed a company to sell it and issues a public video challenge to all EE youtubers to try and bust it.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 15, 2024, 04:46:45 am
content: He's posted a video:https://x.com/JustXAshton/status/1801461955221217301Quote

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2024, 05:16:59 am
content: So he plugged it into the mains and it ran. He unplugged it from the mains and it stopped running. Nothing out of the ordinary there?

author: Haenk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2024, 07:04:53 am
content: That "video" is of the same scientific use as one of those indian energy scam videos - no overview, 2/3 of the device out of viewing area and some random cables going to/coming from whoknowswhere.+1 for the idea to capture energy from the universe, -100 for utter nonsense

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2024, 02:21:21 pm
content: another thing that seems over unity is Sicilian pizza. they can't mark it up so much because it uses no ingredients but its extremely filling for what you get and pay compared to pretty much every other lunch option.You can't seem to eat it too much though, maybe thats the universe solution to over unity.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2024, 11:49:39 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on June 15, 2024, 04:46:45 amI fired up Vivaldi. Another motor generator system. Lots of magnets and dead batteries is typical. He really just needs about 5-10 of the free harbor freight meters to finish it up.Witt's made similar videos. Always had a drill press or some power tools to show. Plus they used the religion angle to help drum up followers. I wonder how many similar videos are now on YT. I bet 10's of thousands. Each with millions of views.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2024, 11:55:09 pm
content: Unplugged from the AC mains. Magic!! Go Witts.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 17, 2024, 12:59:11 am
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on June 15, 2024, 11:49:39 pmI wouldn't take the other side of that bet.And their fan base is absolutely rabbid.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 17, 2024, 01:01:54 am
content: Quote from: Haenk on June 15, 2024, 07:04:53 amIn which case it's not actually over-unity, it's just energy harvesting.Similar to the way you can get a Coefficient of Performance greater than 1 on heat pumps. Try them without the surrounding environment and watch them fail.

author: Haenk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 17, 2024, 07:13:32 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on June 17, 2024, 01:01:54 amI'm a strict believer in physical laws

author: langwadt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 17, 2024, 04:03:04 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on June 15, 2024, 04:46:45 amhow long would it take you to make a video with some random fancy looking spinning magnets and some random meters connected to something showing different numbers? if you do maybe he wants to invest

author: langwadt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 17, 2024, 04:04:09 pm
content: Quote from: Haenk on June 17, 2024, 07:13:32 amhttps://youtu.be/tuxbMfKO9Pg?si=ipLaAiNd9zoHzqzM

author: Ben321
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 17, 2024, 10:12:18 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on June 10, 2024, 10:50:10 pmSign an NDA? I'm pretty sure an NDA isn't legally binding if it's intended to cover up a crime like a scam or fraud. And if this guy is selling devices that he claims will due the impossible, then he's literally stealing from those who are buying them. So if an engineer signs an NDA to be allowed to look at the device (obviously the guy is hoping to get engineers who will promote the product for him) but upon looking at it can see it's fake, then I'd expect those engineers to do the morally correct thing and report to the public that this guy is faking it. Yes that would be an NDA violation, but since they are literally reporting a crime (that his product is a scam) then I'd expect that in court the NDA would be tossed out. And I don't think this guy would take you to court either for violating the NDA, because he wouldn't want the fact he's running a scam to come out in a court room.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 18, 2024, 12:45:19 am
content: Quote from: Ben321 on June 17, 2024, 10:12:18 pmDoesn't matter, if he has money he could lawfare you into bankruptcy, or just tie up your life for years. Even if you legally won in the end, you lose.Only a fool would sign an NDA with this clown. I hope Mehdi doesn't go ahead with it.

author: Xena E
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2024, 09:54:38 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on June 18, 2024, 12:45:19 amPerhaps the NDA is for the big bag of money the creators are going to get from this tool for giving the scam credibility?X

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 19, 2024, 11:46:26 pm
content: Quote from: Xena E on June 19, 2024, 09:54:38 pmWhy when he can just use their involvement for publicity for free.It's a classic association con.

author: temperance
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2024, 01:43:28 am
content: I can only hope that creating an account for this forum is too complicated for some. I'll start praying as of now until it fades into oblivion and perhaps posts some cats and dogs to speed up the process.

author: garrettm
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 19, 2024, 06:50:16 am
content: I have a legit over unity device: Take a neon bulb, say an NE2. Wrap it with tinfoil (just enough to cover the glass and not the electrodes). Now ignite the plasma (say 50V through a 100kohm resistor). Now charge the capacitor formed by the tinfoil and the plasma sheath (using the NE2 electrode that has the plasma sheath on it). Disconnect the voltage source from the "capacitor". Now kill the plasma (disconnect the 50V source to the tube using a switch). By the law of conservation of charge, the energy stored in the capacitor has gone up. No work was done by you the builder (aside from igniting the plasma and initially charging the cap). However, the plasma sheath being "extinguished" increased the distance between the two "plates" of the capacitor. That is, the electrodes were physically moved by the plasma and hence work was done. Real work.This work is orthogonal to the input. Like rolling a boulder off a cliff. No matter how much work it took to coerce it off the edge, the same amount of gravitational potential energy between the ground and the cliff's edge is imparted to the boulder when falling. Like wise, the energy increase in the plasma capacitor is limited by the size of the plasma sheath and the size of the electrode (distance between "plates" in ignited and extinguished states). The amount of time that the tube is ignited (assuming >> 3 tau) has no bearing on the output energy.Tada. Over unity.(Do note that success with this experiment does depend on electrode polarity. The plasma sheath should be the positive electrode? I forgot. Just flip the source around and try again. Also use an electrometer to measure the voltage (the capacitance here is tiny) and only charge the cap up to like 10V, or you may damage the input from over voltage. Also, keep everything meticulously clean! Tiny capacitance and high voltages require the glass to be clean and nothing accidentally touching the top electrode to minimize leakage.)

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 19, 2024, 04:18:04 pm
content: Quote from: garrettm on July 19, 2024, 06:50:16 amCharge and energy are orthogonal to each other. It is not possible to make any inferences about energy from conservation of charge. You can, however, make a deduction from the law of conservation of energy. If energy stored in a system has gone up, then either work was done on the system, or energy was added to the system.If you were able to do a complete and accurate analysis of the scenario you describe and account for every detail, then you would discover how all the energy and work contributions add up to zero change overall.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 19, 2024, 05:16:38 pm
content: If you charge a two-plate capacitor with no conductive path between the plates, and then pull them apart with an insulating rod, the capacitance decreases while the charge remains constant.The energy in the capacitorE=Q2/(2C) increases, but that was obtained by the mechanical force on the rod required to do the expansion.If you let the rod go free, the capacitor will collapse, with an inward force on the rod draining electrostatic potential energy from the capacitor to kinetic energy and any mechanical resistance loading the rod's motion.Since the charge on each of the two plates is the opposite of that on the other plate, the electrostatic force between them is attractive, and mechanical support (or a dielectric between them) is required to prevent the collapse.In variable capacitance systems, there are two different extreme situations: constant voltage (from an external voltage source) and constant charge (as discussed above, with insulation).edit: started with the description backwards--oops.

author: Circlotron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 20, 2024, 12:40:06 am
content: Quote from: TimFox on July 19, 2024, 05:16:38 pmThat’s an interesting situation that I have spent time thinking about in the past. Here’s something - as the plates are drawn apart the PD between them increases both because of the reducing capacitance and because of the energy in mechanical force to draw them apart.Question 1. Would the PD between the plates increase faster than the distance between them, leading to a separation distance at which they would eventually flash over?Question 2. Given this increasing PD between the plates from two causes vs the increasing separation, what would a graph of the attractive force between the plates look like? This is beyond my skill set.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 20, 2024, 03:38:23 am
content: How to calculate the case of mechanical motion of a capacitor with constant charge:1. Use the equation for capacitance as a function of spacingxrelevant to the geometry.2. For a constant charge, the voltage (potential drop) will vary asV=Q/C(x).3. The energy then varies asE=Q2/(2C)4. The mechanical force is the derivativeF= -dE/dxEdit: additional note.It can be complicated to calculate capacitance for some geometries.Two reasonable cases:a. Two plates, each much larger than the gap between them, where the gap is "x". E.g., condenser microphone.b. Two concentric cylinders, with small gap between them, where linear motion parallel to the axis is "x". Looks like a piston trimmer.

author: Refrigerator
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2024, 07:08:45 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on June 15, 2024, 04:46:45 amYou know it's true over unity when there's spinny magnets involved.Why is it always two plastic wheels with magnets in them, spinning against each other, that makes people think "oh yeah, that's some real over-unity right there"It gets boring after a while, because every time you find a new nutcase pushing their over-unity device, it's just another spinning magnet contraption.

author: langwadt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2024, 11:15:20 am
content: Quote from: Refrigerator on July 23, 2024, 07:08:45 amit sucks money out of the pockets of the gullible

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 04, 2024, 09:34:39 am
content: Oh no, he's going to expose myself and Medhi as frauds!

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 04, 2024, 11:21:20 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on August 04, 2024, 09:34:39 amWhy do I feel a need to pat Ashton Forbes on the shoulder and say "There, there, just because you are delusional about this does not mean you are a bad guy, Ashton"?I like to entertain far-out ideas, especially to understand the pattern and the strongest and weakest points. There is no need tobelievein the ideas, to be able to examine them thoroughly. In fact, when youtruly believe(instead ofsuspect,consider possible,entertain the idea, et cetera; with emotional investment in the outcome), you're most likely to fall short of an effective/realistic examination. And, like here in Ashton Forbes' case, such beliefs tends to get all culty and claim all non-believers are frauds or conspiracy members... Such a dramatic step off a proverbial cliff, really.Oh, wait! I feel the same about toddlers in a tantrum: all feeling, no capability of rational-logical thought or self-examination yet.

author: unseenninja
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 04, 2024, 06:51:36 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on August 04, 2024, 09:34:39 am

author: langwadt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 04, 2024, 07:59:55 pm
content: Quote from: Nominal Animal on August 04, 2024, 11:21:20 ammaybe he's delusional, maybe he's a scam artist...

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 05, 2024, 04:09:28 am
content: It's funny to note he was all bubby-buddy with Mehdi when he gave him a sniff of being interested in debunking his (not actually his) machine. No he reaises that Mehdi isn't going to give him the time of day on his channel, he's now branded him a "fraud"All the engineering Youtubers be like

author: ejeffrey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2024, 04:58:43 am
content: Quote from: garrettm on July 19, 2024, 06:50:16 amThere are several problems here but the main one is what happens when the arc is extinguished.Say you have this system with a capacitor formed by a foil electrode and a confined plasma. The plasma is a mix of positive ions and negative free electrons, but as it's charged there will be a slight abundance of electrons (or ions, depending on the polarity). Now when you turm off the power you are imagining that the charges are sucked back to the metal terminals of the arc, increasing the electrode separation and decreasing the capacitance.But that's not what happens. When you turn off the plasma supply, what happens mostly is that the positive and negative charges in the plasma recombine where they are. The excess charges won't have anything to recombine with so they will just be left kind of hanging. They will tend to follow whatever electric fields remain -- including from your outer foil electrode. Depending on the strength of the applied field they may tend to move towards the glass envelope sticking to the glass and charging it up. They may end up at the arc electrodes. But whatever happens they are moving "downhill" as it were, not increasing the total system energy.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2024, 02:03:54 am
content: The funny part about the NDA thing is that, well, how would that work anyway? If he challenges Youtubers but makes them sign a NDA, then that means that said Youtubers could not use any disclosed information publicly to debunk the concepts, they'd have to keep it for themselves. And so, they could not publicly communicate about the debunk: with no right for the Youtubers to unveil any kind of information deemed "confidential", the guy could invariably say that his claims have never been debunked. By signing, you'd effectively be legally bound to shut up.In other words, nice try, Ashton.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 08, 2024, 02:10:44 am
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on August 08, 2024, 02:03:54 amYep, that's the idea. Only a complete fool would sign it.And the NDA doesn't even have to directly say that, he could still threaten you with a lawsuit based on what he thinks it might imply.

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2024, 05:22:30 am
content: How'd that work though for the opposite case, as far as i remember the guy said you sign an NDA, i'll show you stuff, you see for yourself it works, then you have to go and tell your audience. What can you tell your audience then if you signed the NDA. Does not make sense.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 13, 2024, 06:03:46 am
content: Quote from: Bud on August 09, 2024, 05:22:30 amOf course not, and that's the trick. He'll promise you can say "anything you like" except reveal how the tech works, but then essentially he's got a generic "gotcha" and can threaten on a lawsuit technicality because you might have slipped up on phrasing some words or some such.Only a fool signs an NDA for this.And the 2nd gottcha is that he can spin your content in any way he wants for commercial gain and/or promotional purposes.This is why he's now so angry that the EE creators won't give him the time of day. He's even threatened to use my refusal to debunk it as "evidence" that his device works, that's in his own words.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2024, 07:34:21 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on August 13, 2024, 06:03:46 amWell, he should go ahead. Pretty funny.

author: VinzC
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2024, 11:19:36 am
content: Quote from: Haenk on June 11, 2024, 10:28:44 amA famous French movie maker, Michel Audiard, now deceased, made one of his character say "Idiots dare anything and everything, that's also how you spot them!"It's not far from a quote commonly attributed to Descartes: "The most evenly distributed thing among humans is common sense because, no matter what amount nature granted him, one always assesses he's got enough of it since that's what he's judging with."Disclaimer: these are free translations done by me, not official quotes.Other than that, what I find depressing is the amount of energy required to debunk these fallacies. Even worse it's not even guaranteed to work and in the meantime the disastrous effects of believing that crap spreads like contagion, i.e. relayed by media and all kinds of networks. I know about Brandolini's bullshit asymmetry principle but putting a name on it doesn't make it easier to deal with. Unfortunately.Quote from: EEVblog on August 13, 2024, 06:03:46 amThere should be laws to protect people from being trapped, e.g. requiring by law NDA's to be warranted and validated by a committee of field experts. Otherwise loopholes will always make scams like this profitable.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 13, 2024, 12:17:03 pm
content: Physics Youtuber Sabine Hossenfelder was just tricked into following Forbes on X today

author: VinzC
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2024, 12:30:41 pm
content: Well, at least we can trust she has enough mind to realize what's wrong at some point and be clear about that.

author: langwadt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2024, 12:50:26 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on August 13, 2024, 12:17:03 pmto get a laugh at his nonsense?

author: Haenk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2024, 01:15:51 pm
content: "Only one has to be right for free energy to be real." (Quote from that guy...)I'd say one cannot void his argument.Unfortunately, this does not prove or disprove anything.However, on the scientific side of things - if you claim $something, you better have a prove to show. Even more so, if the claim contradicts everything of commonly accepted scientific basic rules.Don't let yourself get pulled to the stoopid side of arguments

author: Xena E
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2024, 03:07:49 pm
content: Quote from: Haenk on August 13, 2024, 01:15:51 pmCorrect. And if you argue with a fool, to bystanders it's just two fools arguing.Quote from: EEVblog on August 13, 2024, 12:17:03 pmHow do you trick people into following you on X?😵‍💫Just because someone is following him it doesn't imply they are validating his bullshit, or does it?

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2024, 03:14:17 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on August 13, 2024, 12:17:03 pmDo you? I would need to sign up to see.

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2024, 04:26:33 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on August 13, 2024, 12:17:03 pmDon't immediately think the worst of her. Maybe she just wanted to ensure she can see all his posts, so she can do a better researchedresponselater!(That's exactly what I'd do, too. Even though she is a rare physicist willing to very publicly talk about "fringe science" like faster than light travel and such, she is very down-to earth and practical, not easily swayed by hype and social pressure, based on the videos I watched.)I find it very funny that languages like English and German use "free" for both "zero-cost" and "libre": in Finnish these cannot be confused, as the former isilmainenand the latter isvapaa. "Free energy" does not really translate to Finnish, and theidioticidiom "energy out of nothing" (energiaa tyhjästä) must be used for it. (Because of this, Finns are naturally quite sceptical of such claims, as it is not "natural" to get something for nothing at all. I can imagine how in germanic languages, people would be drawn to the idea ofzero-costenergy and not intuitively grasp theenergy out of nothingaspect at all.)

author: VinzC
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2024, 04:40:26 pm
content: Quote from: Nominal Animal on August 13, 2024, 04:26:33 pmExactly what I thought. This video from her typically is the kind of "reaction" (read: sarcasm) I'd expect (check the end of the main topic around 5 minutes in). Seehttps://youtu.be/maqwEI3VpTA?t=301and how she insists on not saying ... you get the picture

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2024, 05:15:50 pm
content: Quote from: Nominal Animal on August 13, 2024, 04:26:33 pmAs a native English speaker, I am not sure I am even very conscious of the difference. "Free" means unconstrained, untethered. So in the special case of money, an item which is free of charge is an item free for the taking, unconstrained by financial cost. Items displayed in a shop are confined there, and you have to pay a price to release them from that confinement.

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2024, 05:38:29 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on August 13, 2024, 05:15:50 pmThat isexactlywhat I mean! To a Finn, the two are completely different, and translating "free" always depends on the context. To you, the two concepts meld together; for Finns at least, it combines two separate terms under a single English word."Free energy" itself is a nonsensical term even in English, because you cannot "constrain" or "tether" energy anyway. Of course, using the proper term, "energy out of nothing", would immediately make listeners sceptical.

author: Xena E
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2024, 06:23:24 pm
content: Quote from: Nominal Animal on August 13, 2024, 04:26:33 pmYes, but perhaps through a sock puppet account...Quote from: Nominal Animal on August 13, 2024, 04:26:33 pmI would tend to agree but it's a pre conditioning exercise that the term free energy was chosen by the charlatan blags.When people who can't grasp that the laws of thermodynamics are extant, and will be in perpetuity, start talking about free energy, I just tell them that the only free energy there is has to be stolen from somewhere.I don't care that stupid people are being fleeced by the charlatans, but I do not like it when it seems public money, and investment funds also gets thrown at free energy research and wank technology.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2024, 06:34:16 pm
content: The irony is that real "free" energy is out there, in wind and solar. Except it is not really free, because there is a massive infrastructure cost to capture it.So why do people think that actual "free energy", if it were to exist, would just jump out and make itself available to us, without us doing a lot of work to get hold of it?

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2024, 07:32:29 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on August 13, 2024, 06:34:16 pmAnd hydro and hydrothermal; see Iceland and Norway as examples.I've said it before in other threads: I don't want these overunity/"free energy" enthusiasts to stop per se; I'd like for them to see the untapped possibilities inharvestingenergy and converting it into more useful forms, especially in the practical one-house and smaller scales. Research funding is only available for potentially massive installations, so practically nobody is looking at the practical one-household scale.If we consider the effects of affordable heat pumps with indoors and outdoors units in the last two or three decades, it shows that such "small scale" changes can make a huge difference overall.For example, you do not actually need AC for a household: there are low-voltage (12V-24V) DC appliances for just about everything one might want, including fully equipped kitchens. If you used copper pipes for transferring DC power everywhere in a small house, how much energy could you save from say a rooftop solar installation like Dave's? Sure, such a house would probably have to be designed for the purpose, and pay more attention to materials and insulation; I'm saying that researchingthatsounds like an extremely interesting practical project we (humans in general, and specifically in different climates around the world) really should be doing.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2024, 09:44:00 pm
content: Almost all energy making anything possible on Earth comes or has come from the Sun. There may be a comparatively small amount of energy coming from the core of the Earth (which itself would have come from the times when Earth was formed) too. The Earth rotation around itself and the Sun is also energy that has been gathered when it was formed. That's it.All we can do is either harvest energy that has already been stored in some form (like "fossil" fuels), or in "real time" directly from the Sun's (or again, Earth core) radiation.As Earth will not survive the Sun (and long before its "death", by the time the Sun's radiation will have significantly decreased, Earth will have long been inhabitable anyway), the energy we get from it is completely "free".Yes there's always some cost depending on how we need to transform this energy, but obviously the net gain is always positive, otherwise it won't last long and we'll be forced to stop.The adjective "free" needs to be defined. All energy in the universe is "free". Life is "free". Yet, it comes with a cost (which, in the end, is related to entropy), which can be roughly translated to "nothing lasts forever". Or something.Energy IS free, but again due to entropy, the "usable" forms of energy for a given context (organization => a local decrease of entropy) are always decreasing over time. So all energy can be considered "free", but locally non-perpetual. Free and perpetual are two different things, yet very often conflated when lunatics talk about energy.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 13, 2024, 11:39:54 pm
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on August 13, 2024, 03:14:17 pmNo I don't follow him. I saw it because I follow Sabine.For those interested, this is how it happened:Then his followers smell big physics youtuber verification blood and try and try to draw her into their world.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 13, 2024, 11:49:09 pm
content: All this talk about "free energy" is IMO the wrong frame. If you use that term it's easy to get dragged down into the gutter and forced to admit in some way there there is "free energy" to be had, i.e. energy harvesting.Once you admit that, they have got you and will ride you all the way into town.The term which they really mean is over-unity and/or perpetual motion. In this case Ashton literally uses the term over-uniy and has said that once set in motion his machine will run a load like the computer continuously forever.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 13, 2024, 11:53:55 pm
content: Quote from: Nominal Animal on August 13, 2024, 04:26:33 pmNo I don't think anything bad of her, she'll obviously see through the bullshit. My only concern is that she'll get dragged into "his world" and give him what he so desperately craves, attention and validation from a big physics or engineering youtuber. Even if one of us does a video just debunking and laughing at his rubbish, he gets what he wanted, the attention.Look at the wording in the message that sucked her in, it's "we" and "call him and listen with an open mind", "we love you". He has this big community to true believers that are absolutely desperate for someone with mainstream credibility to give them the time of day.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2024, 11:57:04 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on August 13, 2024, 11:49:09 pmThe real problem with over-unity is that even the tiniest amount of over-unity can be scaled up to infinite over-unity by compounding. But nobody ever demonstrates that. Forget running a computer. Make a machine that can produce megawatts. But, of course, there will always be excuses why they cannot do that.

author: langwadt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2024, 11:58:11 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on August 13, 2024, 11:49:09 pmand I'm sure "over-unity" was initially made up to avoid saying perpetual motion, just like all the silly tiktok frases for words that are too "dangerous" to get past the censor

author: langwadt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2024, 11:59:44 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on August 13, 2024, 11:57:04 pmjust another round of funding and some more work refining it, it's getting real close ...

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 14, 2024, 12:17:54 am
content: Quote from: IanB on August 13, 2024, 11:57:04 pmThey can't even demonstrate the computer running continuouslyIt's not rocket science to get your Nobel prize and fortune and glory, just sit yourself in an empty room with no cords with your magic woo-woo machine running a computer and say a bar heater and then live stream the whole thing for a week using that computer.

author: BrianHG
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2024, 01:41:14 am
content: The only 3 known over-unity forces which can exist...The Casimir Effect. -> No meaningful energy can be captured from the zero point background energy.Dark Energy. -> To capture this, you would need to operate on the scale of distances over multiple Galaxy clusters.White Holes -> They are only theoretical, but if one existed, you will be cooked when getting too close trying to capture the output energy.For the most part, we are being flooded with energy from the sun every day and modern battery packs can with enough investment meet your power needs in the multi kilowatt arena with nothing more than a bunch of 400 watt solar panels on our roof.Even new small modular nuclear reactors are beginning to become viable delivering enough power for small-medium sized city blocks each.But to think this BS toy box could even heat or air-condition my entire house, cook my food, and charge my cars is ludicrous, let alone power an AM radio which again, it cannot. Otherwise, it would break laws of physics, or, somehow, we all of mankind has somehow missed the easily accessible megawatts of free energy flowing through us at all times coming from the ether.

author: Xena E
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2024, 07:31:16 am
content: Quote from: Sabine HossenfelderFor sure, that was an error of judgement.

author: VinzC
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2024, 07:38:35 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on August 13, 2024, 11:53:55 pmI think I see your point now. It's not about free energy at all in fact, nor whether it's true or BS, it's about (although not limited to) grabbing the attention of renown and reputable people, just for the sake of being talked about, if I get you right.If true then it poses a paradox: when those attention vampires propagate bullshit, what is the appropriate behaviour? leave them alone (in the secret hope the "noise" dies all naturally)? or debunk their fallacies and be transparent to seeking truth (in the secret hope people with an ounce of critical thinking will get the point)? The thing is it's not a problem that spawned on its own but oneconsequenceof a much deeper issue.I personally am not even sure leaving those idiots alone will eventually cure the problem of stupidity though. It's contagious, obviously. But it's much deeper than that and IMHO a societal problem to tackle before it's too late. Science educators like you and many others sure have a great deal of efforts to go into that daunting task (to a point it's probably overwhelming). To paraphrase a French science educator, it's true that obscurantism should return to obscurity but it obviously and definitely *is* making its way (it has already IMHO) into recognition.And when you think of it, the answer lies in "education". Science educators alone aren't enough. They do their best to compensate for the decreasing quality of teaching in general, which itself is partly caused by the decreasing political interest (education, especially public, has been suffering from decreasing funding from governments¹) to a point the people have now realized (or are starting to realize) there is an enormous gap to fill. We may all bear some responsibility in educating others, especially if/when we deem it necessary. And it's easier said than done, for multiple reasons and it's a huge responsibility.¹ To back up my claims, I've worked a couple of years in both public and catholic — these are the official categories where I live — education systems, i.e. engineering high schools and have witnessed the decline of both, at least in my area. As to engineering education high schools, the situation of the public system is catastrophic: the institution I worked in went from ~350 registered students 15 years ago, they are less than 90 this year. When I made my studies in the nineties, we were about 40 graduates. 5 years ago, there were only 4. One could write a book about it...

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2024, 08:32:55 am
content: Quote from: VinzC on August 14, 2024, 07:38:35 amI do notknow, but I currentlybelievethat promoting rational and logical thinking and discourse, and the scientific method in all aspects of life, is the key.(It is not education in general, but a specific kind of education, one that I believe is not emphasized enough at all levels of formal education from kindergarten to universities.)

author: VinzC
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2024, 08:58:47 am
content: Quote from: Nominal Animal on August 14, 2024, 08:32:55 amI also believe that.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 14, 2024, 09:06:31 am
content: Quote from: Xena E on August 14, 2024, 07:31:16 amNot necessarily. I often follow people because I saw one post I liked for some reason, I don't usually research them much or make judgements.Maybe she just looked at his profile as saw a few things she saw interesting and hit Follow.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 14, 2024, 09:15:35 am
content: Quote from: VinzC on August 14, 2024, 07:38:35 amAnd therein lies the dilemma of every high profile debunker like myself, Sabine, Thunderf00t, Electroboom, Common Sense Skeptic etcIn the case of Aston Forbes the answer is obvious, avoid like the plauge. It was obvious with the NDA request, and then he showed his true hand by getting angry and saying he'll use our non-interest as "proof" that his device works.The other one is the audiophools, you simply can't debunk that stuff, because they will always have the comeback that you have to actually listen to it etc. Or anything medical related because you can't possibly prove the magic woo-woo has no impact.And then you are just giving them ammunition to take whatever you say out of context for promotional purposes, that's always a risk.It's easier with say a commercial crowdfunder. They have made specific claims, have raised a lot of money, and a lot of people have been duped.

author: Xena E
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2024, 09:25:41 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on August 14, 2024, 09:06:31 amYes, that's how I see it, but it could be used as cult propaganda. Let's hope she's able to give it a reality check, and not do the NDA thing.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 14, 2024, 09:53:03 am
content: Quote from: Xena E on August 14, 2024, 09:25:41 amNo, I hope she completely avoids this guy. He has proven he is not a genuine player. Doing any video on this guy, or getting involved in his timeline would be a big mistake IMO

author: VinzC
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2024, 10:02:41 am
content: Yeah, in a sense, ignoring them is the "worst reward": let their frustration speak for not being recognized and heard until they eventually shoot themselves in the foot. The strategy is to not confront them on logic but emotional grounds, so in this case by completely ignoring them. It's the only language (read: mode) they "understand" (I shall say "are receptive").

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 14, 2024, 10:11:25 am
content: Quote from: VinzC on August 14, 2024, 10:02:41 amAshton's dummy spit when he thought he had Electroboom on the hook for a few weeks, but then when Mehdi shot him down in flames it was hillarious

author: Haenk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2024, 11:30:44 am
content: Quote from: VinzC on August 14, 2024, 10:02:41 amYou simply cannot convince a believer being "wrong". However ignoring him is a problem either, because there are many people around that *might* believe him, because they don't know any better. Attacking him in public might even get some people to donate to him, for his "fight against ignorant established engineers"So "hard facts" might be the better strategy, as the facts will stand the test of time, while voodoo nonsense will likely (hopefully) fail at some time.

author: VinzC
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2024, 12:30:40 pm
content: Quote from: Haenk on August 14, 2024, 11:30:44 amI disagree as to the alleged effect of hard facts. You rightfully said yourself this is clearly "beliefs" against "reality", in which facts or reality are just being totally ignored. For short, you cannot make someone aware of their biases if they are already persuaded it doesn't apply to them since they would need to be already aware of their own biases to admit they have any, which itself is a (well-known BTW) paradox.Take flat earthers, for instance. The factual nature of what's at stake still is debated despite the hard nature of facts. Likewise, some belief systems are known to resist time, e.g. ancestral "medicine" in some countries, which have long been refuted by science. Homeopathy is also one of the hardest factual stance of science, in that "there has never been any confirmation of any of those claims". Regardless, it doesn't deter "believers" even though it's been debunked for almost 200 years.You can't fight beliefs with facts — it's what science educators do and it doesn't make people who are already strongly convinced change their mind anyways. It's already too late. Those cases are lost for as long as they live unfortunately. What counts is to prevent the phenomenon from getting worse and amplified by the pervasiveness of communication media, which completely overwhelm official education channels. You can only act *before* beliefs even have a chance to step in and take over critical thinking. And that means continuous guidance¹ from birth to the educational system, all along the life of every single individual.How? Better education towards elementary psychology, social sciences, human relationships and behaviour, critical thinking... those sorts of stuff².¹ I really mean "guidance" not "conditioning".² Knowing that even then, it's not a guarantee of success...

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2024, 04:41:58 pm
content: Quote from: VinzC on August 14, 2024, 12:30:40 pmI continue to believe that that flat earth movement is a giant hoax. People pretend to believe the Earth is flat to get a rise out of the people who waste time and energy trying to debunk them. All the while they are laughing behind their back at the gullible fools who believe they are sincere.

author: Haenk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2024, 05:07:57 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on August 14, 2024, 04:41:58 pmNever misunderestimate the stoopidness of people. Cultivating a hoax requires a higher level of intelligence, and that's not where you find most of the flat earthers - proof: Just watch some flat earth videos.

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2024, 06:11:53 pm
content: Some of them are probably trolls, but there are bound to exist idiots who will believe the trolls...

author: langwadt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2024, 06:14:28 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on August 14, 2024, 04:41:58 pmhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poe%27s_law

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2024, 11:45:31 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on August 13, 2024, 11:57:04 pmNo one demonstrates over-unity to begin with, regardless of scaling.Scaling is a completely separate issue, and there are plenty of things that are difficult to scale and have never been scaled in terms of technology. Nuclear fusion is a classic example.

author: VinzC
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2024, 10:31:26 am
content: Quote from: IanB on August 14, 2024, 04:41:58 pmAs Haenk said: don't underestimate human stupidity. Although what you said is plausible, it doesn't resist Occam's razor as that theory raises more questions than it solves, e.g. with what purpose? organised by whom? when did that... movement part from historical precedents which were due to true believers of flat Earth? (the list could go on). Not to say that you are wrong but I believe stupidity has a much higher level of probability in this case. See also Hanlon's razor: don't lookup in malice what can be explained by ignorance or stupidity.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2024, 11:54:59 am
content: Quote from: IanB on August 14, 2024, 04:41:58 pmI don't think so. There is an enormous urge for belonging in human beings, and it overwrites basic logic and reasoning, and there is a pattern over entire history of mankind. Its sometimes very destructive, sometimes tame.Some will go to church, and believe that people walked on water.Some will believe in flat Earth.Some will spend their entire life on darkweb because the man will get ya.Some will paint their hair blue and shout from the top of their lung nonsense contradicting basic biology, and try to cancel you on reddit and take over education systems.Some will tell you that their sports team is the best on the world.And some will spend their entire life placing magnets in circles because for sure in one orientation it will spin forever.It's all about the group, distorted reality, and collective hysteria. Basically a group of people are incapable of rational though the same way as an isolated person is.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2024, 09:18:50 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on August 14, 2024, 04:41:58 pmProbably a fraction of them these days, especially the more vocal ones, fall into this category.But the movement is nothing new and the "Flat Earth Society" dates back to the 50's. It may still be a giant, long-standing hoax, but to me it looks more like some kind of sect, like many others.Of course, nowadays, with internet and social media, many people are "gravitating" around this idea while having no link to the FES whatsoever, but I wouldn't discard the sectarian nature of it all.

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2024, 10:16:47 pm
content: Quote from: tszaboo on August 15, 2024, 11:54:59 amMuch less so, for the reasons you listed – which can be summarized associal pressure.An isolated person is much more likely to engage in rational thought. When interacting in a group, a lot of mental effort goes into processing social cues and such, including predicting the reaction of the rest of the crowd. (I'm sure some can do both at the same time, although I definitely cannot.)There is an apt saying in Finnish:Joukossa tyhmyys tiivistyy(lit.,"stupidity condenses in a crowd").

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2024, 10:33:35 pm
content: Social pressure within a group is not to be underestimated.Yesterday I watched a summary of a reality show where a group of people were stranded on a desert island with no food or water, and only a few basic tools like a knife and some string.One group was a group of men, and one group was a group of women.The men treated it like a vacation. They quickly elected a leader, made a fire, got drinking water, hunted for food, and had male bonding sessions around the campfire.The women fought and squabbled, complained at each other, and rapidly descended into thirst and starvation. They had a survival expert in their group, who they ignored, because they didn't like the idea of having a leader telling them what to do (i.e. telling them how to survive). They wanted to make all decisions collectively, even if it would result in sickness and death.Peer pressure can be a terrible thing.

author: langwadt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2024, 11:01:42 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on August 15, 2024, 10:33:35 pmthose reality shows also have knack for finding the most inept women who biggest skill is how they look in a bikini,.. gotta get those viewers

author: Xena E
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 16, 2024, 12:17:05 am
content: Quote from: Nominal Animal on August 15, 2024, 10:16:47 pmYup. Some personality types will endure any amount of inconvenience and humiliation just to belong to the herd, the best way not to have peer pressure is not have any peers!Quote from: Nominal Animal on August 15, 2024, 10:16:47 pmMob reaction is as dangerous as a bad dictatorship...Just look at the riots in the UK at the moment.Human beingsarethe problem species on this planet for sure.

author: VinzC
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 16, 2024, 08:51:38 am
content: Quote from: Nominal Animal on August 15, 2024, 10:16:47 pmI'm afraid this might be incorrect. All alone or in group, an idiot remains an idiot, unfortunately. This claim is only true if the person in question is already *capable* of rational thinking, which then makes this a circular definition. Being alone or in group has a more prominent impact on *behaviour*, not the thought process; these are different things, not necessarily correlated.Quote from: Nominal Animal on August 15, 2024, 10:16:47 pmThere is a difference between behaviour and thoughts. The social pressure that is debated here is about adopting the group's *behaviour* (for whatever reason). It doesn't necessarily imply the person changing their mind or adopting a different line of thought. At least not immediately. And there's been a couple experiments¹ to show that (I don't have the references though).¹ One of these experiments was twofold: first a candidate was asked a few questions and presented with multiple choices, from which they picked the right answer. During the second part the candidate was together with a group of people, who, unbeknownst to the candidate, were instructed to give wrong answers, collectively. Progressively the candidate ended up giving the same answers as the groupeven though they knew the answers were wrong. Later experiments showed this influence from the group is much less prominent as the number of candidates increases and beyond a given ratio, the group even ceases to have any influence at all.

author: Circlotron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 16, 2024, 09:46:21 am
content: Quote from: Xena E on August 16, 2024, 12:17:05 amThere was a movie called A Girl Named Sooner, about a girl that was raised by a bootlegging old woman, and mistreated terribly until finally she was made a ward of a childless couple. She had this pet bird that can't fly, and in her efforts to make friends with some of the neighborhood kids she shows them the bird. She puts it down on the ground and eventually all those other kids start throwing stones at it, and the desire to be "part of the herd" is so strong that she too starts throwing stones at it until it finally dies." It's a terrible scene.https://youtu.be/CSztgAfqrVQ?si=4q_idmYPIsjt8YQb&t=1972

author: Xena E
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 16, 2024, 10:39:55 am
content: That is awful.Unfortunately the urge to belong drives atrocities, proven throughout history.X

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 16, 2024, 06:23:50 pm
content: Quote from: VinzC on August 16, 2024, 08:51:38 amThe effect of group membership to individual thought processes is calledgroupthink.How strongly thought processes and behaviour are correlated, is a topic in psychology, and I'm not an expert. What I do know is thatcognitive behavioural psychotherapyuses the connection between the two to improve emotional regulation and coping strategies with many mental health conditions, quite effectively in my own personal case. Because of that and the related research I've read, I dobelievethought processes or cognition in general and behaviour are tightly coupled (so much so that it has been proven statistically that forcing a specific behaviour will slowly change the related thought processes given sufficient repetition), but again, not an expert.Quote from: VinzC on August 16, 2024, 08:51:38 amSure, but we're talking in statistical terms here: whattypicallyhappens.I know how to understand and empathise people I do not agree with. I practice that quite often, because I like to try and find out the reasons for different opinions and beliefs, by reading and listening to what all kinds of people have to say – including some conspiracy theorists and political pundits. I am often quite sympathetic, too, although I will not tolerate exploitation of others or unfairness. Iparticipatein such a group, but do not adopt or belong to the group, if that makes sense. So, sure, one isn't Borg-ified by just blending in with some group.Yet, pick any random group, and check how many only participate, and how many adopt/belong/follow the group body and mind. My current opinion based on observations and discussions with others and their observations, is thatmajority follows the group body and mind.The size of the group is a very interesting factor. I suspectDunbar numberis key here. It would imply that when group size exceeds 250, its influence on each individual starts statistically decreasing. One exception is a mob that consists of many separate groups with similar purposes/aims/behaviour.To tie this groupthink strand back to the original topic, Ashton Forbes Over Unity Challenge, I wonder how much of it is due to the groupthink of online communities?(You could equally call it say an echo chamber effect. I don't think it is by intentional design – definitely not a conspiracy!–, but appears because the algorithms are designed to keep peoplehappy and avoid conflictsengaged at minimal moderation cost. Yet, to me, the long-term effect on those participating seems to be the opposite: drives people towards groupthink and simplified worldview, and reduces the interactions between people who have differing opinions and experiences and worldviews. I think that acts as a volume booster for goofballs like over-unity "enthusiasts", and "catches" people who would otherwise not be as easily caught by such ideas.)

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 16, 2024, 08:21:09 pm
content: Quote from: Nominal Animal on August 16, 2024, 06:23:50 pmNot necessarily online. I was a student, a high school teacher gifted me a book, called "Forbidden inventions" that I subsequently read. In sure she had the best intentions she tried to give me something that I was interested in, physics. It was a book about perpetuum mobiles, and it was discussing it like a serious topic. And how big oil destroys these inventions for profit.

author: Electrodynamic
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 07, 2024, 10:56:23 pm
content: Nominal AnimalQuoteAs one Nobel winning physicist whose name I cannot seem to remember once implied, beliefs are a wonderful thing but not when designing airplanes. Beliefs are what tends to get people killed in science and engineering.However the problem is much more complex than we think,https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/how-risky-is-it-really/201007/why-changing-somebody-s-mind-or-yours-is-hard-doHere is a good example, if we had a migraine headache a doctor could give us an approved medication or a placebo and the chances are they could have a similar effect psychologically. However if our legs had to be amputated believing we could walk has no bearing in reality because we couldn't as a fact. This is why beliefs have no place in science and engineering only demonstrable facts.I think I'm pretty open minded but when I hear the term "overunity" I think crackpot. Free energy is okay because in the rest of the universe, so far as we know, there is no associated cost relating to energy. The term "cost" and "money" was invented by us on Earth but we have no evidence to suggest this applies to any other place in the universe. Of course, energy is always conserved, but this has nothing to do with free or cost relating to a currency.I found it's best not to judge anyone to harshly and when someone claims something based on a belief then simply ask them for proof. Either they have it or they do not and demonstrable proof speaks for itself.

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2024, 02:15:32 pm
content: Quote from: Electrodynamic on September 07, 2024, 10:56:23 pmI'm split between "crackpot" and "does not understand physics at all".There are people whobelievesimply because they do notknowany better yet. I'm fine with them, and love to try and help them learn if possible.Then there are the crackpots who refuse to learn, becausetheir belief is enough. These are difficult to deal with. I'd love to leave them alone, but I hate them leading others astray.

author: VinzC
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2024, 06:43:40 pm
content: Quote from: Nominal Animal on September 08, 2024, 02:15:32 pmFTR I believe there's a name for that: obscurantism.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 08, 2024, 11:12:44 pm
content: Quote from: Nominal Animal on September 08, 2024, 02:15:32 pmI very sure this guy is a true believer in "alternative physics". Regular physics explainations do not interst him.

author: Xena E
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2024, 06:10:30 am
content: Although I'm convinced that there is a race to the bottom for educational standards, (at least in the UK!) Why hasn't the likes of this guy, flat earthers, foo believers, etc., questioned why their particular delusion is not being investigated and adopted within mainstream science?What I mean by that is,what is the cause of their cognative 'blind spot'.That of course excludes the ones that are champions of this crap for fraud and extortion.RegardsX.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 09, 2024, 07:49:49 am
content: Quote from: Xena E on September 09, 2024, 06:10:30 amIt's way harder to stand out as genius in the field in regular science.

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2024, 02:50:18 pm
content: And people who cannot understand the complex answers tend to suspect there is a simpler answer that is kept from them only so that those who know it can feel superior.

author: VinzC
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 11, 2024, 10:03:29 am
content: Quote from: Xena E on September 09, 2024, 06:10:30 amThere are approximately300 of them, not just one. Well, not that theyallapply in this case but you get the picture.