So where are the 30Hz Chinese thermal cameras? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Ben321
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2019, 11:11:13 pm
content: 30Hz thermal cameras can't be exported from the US without special paperwork. However, I don't think the same regulations prohibit import. Furthermore, the treaties that regulate export of >9Hz cameras are not binding on China (China never signed onto these treaties). So as far as I know, China would have no legal hurdles to sell these to US customers. So why aren't there a bunch of cheap Chinese 30Hz thermal cameras on eBay? Why do even the Chinese ones have a 9Hz limit?

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2019, 11:28:01 pm
content: Ben321,Some reading for you ......https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/207441/Final_FCO_Huang_Chinese_export_controls_report.pdfhttps://www.bis.doc.gov/index.php/all-articles/220-eco-country-pages/1040-china-export-control-informationhttps://www.lexology.com/library/detail.aspx?g=dd0cb683-31ab-4b2c-a0fd-7378162ea9f4https://www.files.ethz.ch/isn/182707/strengthening-dialogue-between-china-and-the-wassenaar-arrangement.pdfChina is NOT some renegade lawless nation when it comes to dual use technology. The Chinese Government understands the military usefulness of thermal imaging technology on the battlefield and is just as concerned about their enemies gaining the technology as the USA and a Wassenaar membership. Just because China is not in the Wassenaar agreement it does not mean they do not have their own rules regarding export of dual use technology.Why do they not offer 30fps models for export to countries like the USA ? Well you would have to ask the Chinese Government and camera manufacturers but I suspect the relative ease with which 9fps cameras can be distributed appeals to the marketing teams. Higher frame rate cameras are likely available from Chinese manufacturers if you ask for them and can comply with the Chinese Government export regulations.Fraser

author: Ben321
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2019, 11:52:29 pm
content: Quote from: Fraser on December 31, 2019, 11:28:01 pmDual-use laws, from my understanding, at least in the US, means if a company creates the tech and sells it to both military and civilians. However, if a new company started up, and sold their the stuff they made EXCLUSIVELY to civilians (even if the technology would have potential military uses), then they aren't burdened by most of these dual-use regulations. For example, if a new company started up, and manufactured 30Hz thermal imagers, and sold them ONLY to civilians (turning down orders from DoD officials placing orders for the military), then any equipment that left their factory would not have dual-use laws attached, so they could be sold anywhere in the world (except for countries with trade sanctions placed on them, like North Korea).

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 01, 2020, 12:00:19 am
content: Umm. Nope, that is not the meaning of, or implementation of, Dual Use technology.Dual use technology is covered under the applicable regulations and these detail which TECHNOLOGIES (and specifications of such) are considered “dual use” and so have military uses that require some controls to be applied to export or even sell. It is the technologies CAPABILITIES that defines it dual use status and not whether it is sold to the military or not. Do not get confused with the ITAR Military list regulations.Before anyone thinks a new device technology capable of dual use, but sold to only civilians, can side step the dual use technology export regulations, remember that the regulations are deliberately written in a manner that can capture new technologies. If a gap in the regulations is discovered, it will be plugged with an update.Fraser

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 01, 2020, 12:13:10 am
content: Ben321,More reading for you....https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dual-use_technologyThis is a pretty accurate précis of Dual Use technology and the true meaning of the term.Fraser

author: I wanted a rude username
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 01, 2020, 03:13:00 am
content: The weird thing is you can apparently buyAmericanITAR scopes on Taobao. E.g.Armasight Predator 336(30 Hz),Trijicon REAP-IR(60 Hz). Much more expensive than buying them in the US though.

author: DaJMasta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 01, 2020, 09:33:15 am
content: Quote from: I wanted a rude username on January 01, 2020, 03:13:00 amIt is legal to export them from the US, you just have to be a documented exporter selling to a documented source and there's a whole traceability thing - probably moot when it gets to a secondhand market, but I think officially that's not supposed to happen.Not so surprising, though, the EU has similar export restrictions and I've seen EU based thermal camera companies that have the same 9Hz to anywhere and greater only within the EU restriction. The restrictions are a bit archaic, IMO, since it seems like every major region with export controls on thermal imagers have similar capability, but at least with the ITAR rules, some of that is the slow movement of government and some of that is just that if it has a military application, even if the technology is pretty widespread, they still want to restrict its distribution. Accelerometers (piezoelectric industrial type ones, not digital MEMS like in smartphones) are restricted in the same way by ITAR, but in the same way, industries all over the world use them for vibration analysis and other governments have similar restrictions on selling similar devices to the US.Then there's stuff like the realtime analysis bandwidth on newer spectrum analyzers being too high and requiring ITAR export control - enough so that makers like Signal Hound have actually intentionally gimped their higher end hardware because of the restriction, even though the non-custom-asic hardware they use are readily available through commercial channels. 100MHz of realtime bandwidth on an SA in the 90s was probably a military secret.... 20+ years later, it's an option on mid-high end commercial gear and is required for some high bandwidth data link analysis work.