Desoldering devices? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / beginners

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 18, 2020, 09:09:30 pm
content: Because I seem to always involuntarily flinch when using my conventional solder sucker, I'm not getting good results with it.Do you have something you like better that I can use with one hand that doesn't cost a lot which is also grounded? (if it uses electricity)

author: m k
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2020, 12:26:44 pm
content: From the beginning and for pro stuff the manual sucker has been prohibited.I've used Pace and Weller handles, both have their ergonomic problems but I'd say that more important is the tip and so I'll take long lasting one first any day.That's not because the tip last longer, it's because its edges stay smoother longer.Nowadays it's hardly like it was when you had to use the thing the whole day and even then the ergonomics of used pliers were still more important.

author: radiolistener
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2020, 12:47:02 pm
content: I'm using hot gun at 300 °C for desoldering.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2020, 02:50:18 pm
content: Heated solder suckers start at around 150 USD. I've used Weller in the past, and it was finicky. You need to spend lot to keep it working, a lot more than an iron. Filters, tips, glass tube etc. They all cost more than regular tips. I don't think it is worth having at home, not without earning money with it.I have now an Engineer SS-02 at home. I tried it a few times, and it is a lot better than those cheap solder suckers. Only issue I have is: maybe it was designed for small hands.

author: bob91343
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2020, 06:28:30 pm
content: I use a Chinese hot air tool and I like it. It's either model 878 or 8878 I forget. I bought extra nozzles of different sizes. It's been reliable and works for PC boards. For old fashioned terminals I use a spring loaded sucker or even braid.

author: Pack34
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2020, 08:33:34 pm
content: What are you desoldering?

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2020, 11:09:45 pm
content: Almost always very small PCBs and usually I am just trying to swap out a part or replace an SMA or other jack or similar.I own a hot air gun. I really just need to get much better with the hot air. Learn the exact temperatures to use and so on. That would probably work, for almost anything, that and tweezers.Its actually kind of funny, I sort of involuntarily twitch when I am using my solder sucker. I currently usually use desoldering braid.Now my Hakko iron is working properly again. (It just needed a reset which the manufacturer forgot to put into the instructions) so that removes one major problem right there. Its temperature was way too low, and it wouldnt function as it was supposed to.Not long ago I tried a combination soldering iron and sucker but when it arrived I immediately realized it would not do because it stated to smoke and melted plastic started dribbling out of the sucking nozzle. A real POS.So my requirements are quite modest and not at all out of the ordinary. Ive even had desoldering setups that worked well for me before, (a bellows-like footpedal with (two) perch valves, a hefty tube and a glass bottle the sucked out material was ejected into and stayed there. I should probably just attempt to re-create that).

author: jesuscf
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2020, 11:11:05 pm
content: Quote from: m k on December 19, 2020, 12:26:44 pmBy whom?

author: m k
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 20, 2020, 03:09:00 pm
content: IBM, DEC and the likes.Don't know how it was with HP and the likes, not much different I guess.Guite possibly the root cause was finally the US Government.If beginning was the problem then maybe early is better.

author: jesuscf
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 29, 2020, 08:31:25 am
content: Quote from: m k on December 20, 2020, 03:09:00 pmThis smells like BS. Sources?

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 29, 2020, 02:28:55 pm
content: I could see that, because the liquid solder might not all get sucked up, some of it might be propelled somewhere else, where it shouldn't be, and cause a short, that evades detection when I look at it before applying power. That's my biggest fear with the spring loaded solder suckers.When it goes off I wince because I am holding a hot soldering iron. That's why a continuous solder sucker appeals to me.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 29, 2020, 03:32:15 pm
content: Quote from: cdev on December 29, 2020, 02:28:55 pmSolder going unwanted places isn't a real issue — if the molten solder is close enough to the solder sucker to be moved (which requires it being very, very close), it's going to be sucked into the solder sucker, not somewhere else.The real reason for continuous vacuum desoldering is that it's the only way to reliably get solder out of plated through-holes. With a solder sucker or desoldering wick, you're almost guaranteed to have component leads stuck to the inside of the holes, because you can't wiggle the component leg aroundwhile suckingas you can (and must) with continuous vacuum, to ensure the lead cools off before having a chance to sweat to the wall of the hole.

author: m k
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 29, 2020, 05:41:13 pm
content: Quote from: jesuscf on December 29, 2020, 08:31:25 amSeems to be so, MIL-STD-2000 is cancelled a long ago and I have never seen what is in the J-STD-001.But we didn't need to cut legs first eighter, so it wasn't really MIL.If memory serves our cookbook even had pictures of illegal tools.My understanding is that basically everybody in the ic pcb industry used those same cookbooks.Other part of the industry, like those who did things for outdoors, I can only guess that they followed those same basic rules.There were also an emergency exception procedure of course.Where returning to standard quality level was also of course ASAP.We also had certified meters, like Fluke 77 and Tek 2215A.Some other used models were not certified and so were not accepted for repairs or adjustings.If memory serves Weller in general had some certification issues, can be USA vs. EEC stuff.Getting basic components from a local store was also more than a deadly sin.

author: rfclown
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 29, 2020, 10:46:31 pm
content: I used a solder sucker in the 80's when working with through hole only boards. I didn't use much solder wick at the time. (Now I use it all the time.) When I transitioned to mostly SMT in the 90's, I stopped using the solder sucker, and haven't had a use for one since (I had two nice ones at Moto; different brands). I now use a very good iron, Metcal PS2E-01, STSS-001, and a cheapo hot air station from Circuit Specialist (Blackjack BK5000). When I was laid off from Motorola in 2008, the first thing I bought on eBay to do work at home was two Hakko 936 irons (for $80 on eBay, $40 a unit). That's what I had used at Moto, and I wanted good irons at home. Then later I used Metcals at another job. Wow. It's a different world. It uses RF to transfer power right to the tip. The tip changes impedance at a set Currie temperature, and the base unit senses the reflected RF signal to create the temperature feedback loop. There is no temperature setting. Its works. It's phenomenal. These irons are expensive, but if you're patient, you can pick up a base for about $50 on eBay, and a handle for $50 (or a whole unit for $100). I have two. At work they have the smaller Metcal SP200 units, and I don't like them as much as the big units I have. They use different tips. My tips last forever. They heat up in seconds, so you don't have to leave them on.The hot air station is your friend for de soldering big stuff (or all kinds of things for that matter). I'm usually de-soldering SMT parts, and I just blob solder on both ends and hold my tip to hit both. Clean up with solder wick, and redo. When I was young I was more careful to de-solder nicely to reuse parts. Now, usually if I have to remove a leaded part, I'll just clip a lead, and pull out one end at a time. If it's something like an RF connector, hot air it is.

author: Microdoser
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 29, 2020, 11:48:04 pm
content: Quote from: radiolistener on December 19, 2020, 12:47:02 pmYeah, came here to post the same.I use a combo of first mopping up the excess solder with some Gootwick desoldering braid, flux, and a soldering iron, then I remove the component itself with my Atten ST-862D hot air gun.I did a bit of looking around for quite a while and for the money (about £160) the Atten is as good as you will get.I've tried a few desoldering braids too and the Gootwick is the best I found, not the most expensive either.In combo with a syringe of half decent flux (I use NC-559 from AliExpress) it will suck solder out of vias, from inside pads, and most of it off the legs of an IC.

author: Electro Fan
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2020, 02:07:02 am
content: Quote from: Microdoser on December 29, 2020, 11:48:04 pmSeems to work at lead temperatures.https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Atten+ST-862D&&view=detail&mid=CA742E7E6A21B86BFCCBCA742E7E6A21B86BFCCB&&FORM=VRDGAR&ru=%2Fvideos%2Fsearch%3Fq%3DAtten%2BST-862D%26qpvt%3DAtten%2BST-862D%26FORM%3DVDREAny chance this would work nearly as well with lead free solder?

author: Fflint
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2020, 10:37:43 am
content: I use a Chinese tool ZD-8915. It is a typical desoldering tool with heated tip and suction when you press the trigger.I don't use it a lot, but when I do it is indispensable(I've had it for half a year and I had to empty the "gun" from solder only twice).One has to use the tool properly depending on what is being u soldered. For example with through hole components it works best set to 450degC, biggest tip, I heat the pad until it melts then I use the hole in the tip to un-bend the wire/leg being u soldered and when applying suction move the tip in circular manner while pressing. It is quite difficult to explain this technique. Search youtube for MrCarlson's lab desoldering tools and you'll find a video doing a better job of explaining how to use the tool.Also in those rare situations when the tool is not powerful enough I use a soldering iron with it at the same time. This is only necessary when desoldering chassis connections etc.The tool allows me to basically reuse components and proto boards. I use board type with a matrix of unconnected pads one use solder to connect. Once I'm happy with the circuit it takes me minutes to disassemble everything.

author: Ice-Tea
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2020, 10:44:55 am
content: Quote from: NANDBlog on December 19, 2020, 02:50:18 pmThere. Fixed it for youhttps://www.amazon.com/Velleman-VTDESOL3U-Vacuum-Desoldering-Heater/dp/B07NZ87FQ3I have one of these. Works well but I made the mistake of inserting it in a holder like you would a normal soldering iron. The head is attached with a few screws in the plastic body and the heat weakens the plastic so it deformed badly. Other than that: wouldn't leave unattended but it does the job.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2020, 12:21:55 pm
content: Quote from: Ice-Tea on December 30, 2020, 10:44:55 amWhile that definitely is a heated solder sucker, what NANDBlog was referring to was actually (continuous) vacuum desoldering, which definitely cannot be had for $15. Continuous vacuum is a completely different beast from the single pulse of a solder sucker.As I explained above, here’s why they’re completely different beasts:Quote from: tooki on December 29, 2020, 03:32:15 pm

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2020, 12:28:59 pm
content: Quote from: Fflint on December 30, 2020, 10:37:43 amYou have to match the tip to the joint. Through-hole varies wildly in dimensions, so you can’t make a blanket statement.This video explains it better than any other tutorial I’ve ever found:https://youtu.be/e8KRPFOD1RE

author: Ice-Tea
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2020, 01:25:02 pm
content: QuoteI know what he meant

author: wizard69
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2020, 04:53:28 pm
content: Solder suckers work fine for through hole components, it is just a matter of getting the mechanics of operation down. A little bit of strength training in the arms can go a long ways here.As for other methods it really depends upon what you are trying to achieve. for example In the past I've heated the back of a PCB with a Master Heat gun and whacked the board against the bench when the solder melted. Probably not the ideal way to go about it.For more sensitive parts I've used every technique/tool you can imagine. That can mean desoldering guns, solder wick, solder suckers, needle nose and other tools. You really need to practice and learn what is the best solution for a given problem because sometimes solder suckers do the job best. Sometimes you need to combine methods, for example a heat gun to help bring a high mass part up to temperature while suing other techniques to actually remove solder.Quote from: cdev on December 18, 2020, 09:09:30 pm

author: Microdoser
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2020, 12:18:00 am
content: Quote from: Electro Fan on December 30, 2020, 02:07:02 amIt goes up to 480c so I am guessing it will be fine. To suck solder out of holes etc I use a soldering iron, flux, and the Gootwick desoldering braid. I only use the air gun to free components so they can be gently lifted off the board or repositioned.For a more in depth comparison of the Atten with a more expensive air gun: Just noticed he is a little sweary in the video so it might not be safe for work.Watching a few of his board repair videos would not be a bad idea so you can see someone doing the thing you seem to want to learn how to do.

author: bob91343
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2020, 05:27:38 am
content: I suspect the big companies may frown on solder suckers not because the solder doesn't all enter the chamber, but more because the temptation to empty the chamber on to the floor or who knows where may be too much to ignore. Or using it multiple times without emptying might cause solder chunks to go where you don't want.I like my solder sucker although I don't use it much. When I first got it I found it so good and so cheap that I bought another, which I haven't yet used. Braid is good. As was said above, it depends on what you are doing. I like my hot air device but it's mostly good for removing parts from a board, especially many parts. Many times I was desoldering an IC and suddenly other parts started to fall off the board. I guess I need to improve my aim. It's fun to use and at times I will just remove parts from junk boards just for the fun of it.At present I am replacing an IC on a board. I got the old one off okay and now am trying to position the new one exactly right but the pads have buildup so the new one keeps moving off position. I might try cleaning off the pads next.

author: Shock
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2020, 09:27:44 am
content: Plenty of different ways to remove components by using two iron tips, solder suckers or pumps, solder braid/wick, desoldering tweezers, vacuum desoldering tool, hot air, chip quik (low temp desoldering), molten blob technique, preheating, blade tips, special smd or chip removal tips, cutting out (a destructive way).Be aware of all of them, practice and pick your poison.

author: Electro Fan
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2020, 07:46:44 pm
content: Quote from: Microdoser on December 31, 2020, 12:18:00 amThanks3 new questions:1. At about 28:10 he seems to be fixing a couple solder bridges on the BGA contacts - what are the tools/materials/steps/processes that he is using to do this? (It looks like he is using the hot air gun plus a tweezers? - what is material is being held in the tweezers?)2. When he places the new BGA IC on the board how does he know the IC BGA contacts are aligned with the board BGA contacts? Just experience of aligning the edges (since you can't see through the IC to the BGA contacts)? Presumably after the new chip is in place you would have to turn the circuit on to confirm contacts were made properly, of course?3. There are some other components (resistors?) near the BGA; some are even in the flux bath. Can you describe how much skill (or what technique) is required to avoid heating the nearby components with the hot air gun so they don't become unsoldered in the process?

author: Microdoser
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2020, 07:57:40 pm
content: Quote from: Electro Fan on December 31, 2020, 07:46:44 pm1, they are soldering tweezers, essentially a double soldering iron that can grip things like tweezers. Useful for soldering both ends of an SMD resistor etc at the same time. If you watch again you will see he uses standard solder to reapply solder to the BGA pads, it comes in from the left. With enough flux, when you run a wetted soldering iron tip over pads, just enough solder remains to then use a hot air gun to place a chip. This is what he is doing, applying solder to the pads with a double soldering iron and solder. The airgun sound is misleading, he is not using it at that point.2, you put it as close as you can and when all the solder is melted it sort of gets sucked to the right place via surface tension. If you wave the hot air over it you can see it wobble a bit, then you know the solder is melted and it is OK3, they probably do melt a bit but the surface tension keeps them in place with the sucking action described in the answer to question 2. Sometimes it settles them in place better. Using a small nozzle, lower airflow, or lower temperatures can reduce the overheating of nearby components.

author: Electro Fan
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2020, 08:06:06 pm
content: Quote from: Microdoser on December 31, 2020, 07:57:40 pmThanks again!Just to confirm/clarify on Q1, the standard solder applied with the double iron solder tweezers is just a piece of regular wire solder? Also, if the new solder is being applied with the solder tweezers (which presumably applies heat), why is he also applying heat with the solder gun? Maybe to help simultaneously apply the new solder with the heated tweezers and remove the bridge(s) with the hot air at the same time?

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 01, 2021, 12:09:30 am
content: It’s normal solder wire.He’s not applying hot air: it’s just the tweezers. The fan sound is the fume extractor.

author: Electro Fan
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 01, 2021, 03:31:38 am
content: Quote from: tooki on January 01, 2021, 12:09:30 amWhat is the sliver tube/tool on the left side?

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 01, 2021, 11:44:08 am
content: Quote from: Electro Fan on January 01, 2021, 03:31:38 amI think: he is pouring flux on the PCB. You see the needle of a dispenser.

author: Shock
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 01, 2021, 03:08:56 pm
content: It's flux core solder wire (probably leaded) he is melting on his tweezers to freshen the solder on the pads with. He isn't using any proper technique, so take that video with a grain of salt. He is showing how to do it fast and in a lot of cases using secondhand components from old boards. Got to charge those high rent, apple loving New Yorkers a bunch.Closer to proper technique would be to remove the old solder and clean flux and contaminants away, apply solder paste to the underside of the component or board and flux the other and then align the component, preheat a little and then go for a gentle reflow. When it comes to shoddy repairs though you want to see what the worst guy that works there does not what the boss shows you in a video.

author: Microdoser
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 01, 2021, 04:11:57 pm
content: Quote from: NANDBlog on January 01, 2021, 11:44:08 amYup, it really is very very magnified.@electro fan This might be useful, in this video he goes through the tools he uses, and why:As has been said, these are the methods and tools he uses to do quick, cheap work in order to maximise profit because of the economic system in New York.In other videos, he has shown proper technique, where you remove all traces of solder, get little solder balls and a template/guide, and then you put one solder ball into each hole in the BGA template, melt them gently to the chip then gently reflow the chip onto the board. What he does for work is whatever is the best combination of speed and effectiveness, not necessarily the best technique.Much debate can be had on the pros and cons of various techniques, but the video above is a good guide to a decent set of tools to have for most solder work.I started out with just a soldering iron and a solder sucker. Then I discovered wick, much later I discovered the joy of flux. Then I needed magnifying goggles, then an airgun, a heatproof soldering silicone pad, then a microscope and so on (and on). In these forums, there is a group called 'test equipment anonymous' for those of us who become addicted to new shiny things. It can happen to you!I would say go at your own pace and budget. If you find a need for a new tool, get the best one you can afford because often you will be using that tool for quite a while. Look around, get opinions, ask here etc before you buy.

author: Shock
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 01, 2021, 05:18:05 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on January 01, 2021, 12:09:30 amQuote from: Electro Fan on January 01, 2021, 03:31:38 amQuote from: NANDBlog on January 01, 2021, 11:44:08 amQuote from: Shock on January 01, 2021, 03:08:56 pmQuote from: Microdoser on January 01, 2021, 04:11:57 pmElectro Fan, it's solder wire, play it in slow motion if you can't see him feeding it in.The FM2023 tweezers are more powerful than the Hakko FM2027/FM2028 handpiece so some people will use their tweezers to pick up smd and do rework instead of using their standard 75W handpiece and tip. Or it could just be just what he has at hand. Note that you cannot run the FM2023 tweezers on the Hakko FX951. You need an FM203 or FM206 station which start at $458 US without the tools.What he is doing is refreshing and loading up the pads with new solder. This is similar to using paste or solder balls. You can also do this instead on the component. Ideally if the flux is still good when reflow is achieved the component will float in the surface tension of the molten solder between the board and component pads. It's bad technique to disturb solder joints right as heat is removed as it can create cold joints.

author: Electro Fan
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 01, 2021, 08:10:20 pm
content: Thanks for the info.Lots of possible tools and techniques.I appreciate the thoughts on the Hakko models & compatibility considerations.I have a 888D and enjoy it a lot. I've looked at the 951 but so far haven't been able to find a compelling reason to start over with new tips and a bunch more cost. I noticed that there is a FX-8804 hot tweezers that is compatible with the 888D, so that might be interesting if a hot tweezers was needed. I can see potential uses for a hot tweezers but the two items that I think are likely to be more useful on my bench are a) the FR-301 desoldering tool, and b) a hot air station (maybe Quick 861DW or Atten 862D?). I think in my case a FR-301 might get more use than a hot air station but that might just be due to a lack of experience and understanding. I'm guessing that if you do BGA work hot air is likely to be requirement but I'm still primarily working on through hole and occasionally SMD. For the amount of desoldering I do solder wick and an occasional Engineer soder sucker will probably suffice but I can see for ICs and other parts why the FR-301 would be pretty nifty.In case anyone hasn't seen this it's a pretty good overview of various topics related to this thread:This video probably will help further the "need" for a hot air tool. Hello TEA.

author: Microdoser
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 01, 2021, 10:26:15 pm
content: If you do mainly through hole then the benefits of a hot air gun might not be enough to validate the cost.I would say though that if you do go for an air gun, the quick seems to have pretty much the same function and useability as the atten but the quick is twice the cost. I have the atten and I can't fault it.One thing that is really really cheap and very useful for soldering is a set of magnifying goggles.I got these from Amazon and found them to be very handy. Glass lenses, various magnifications 1-3.5X. For about a tenner you probably won't find better.https://www.amazon.co.uk/Magnifying-Gianic-Magnifier-Detachable-Illuminated/dp/B086K495T2/ref=psdc_200859031_t1_B07DN9XY4S

author: jesuscf
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 02, 2021, 01:00:05 am
content: Quote from: m k on December 29, 2020, 05:41:13 pmIf you can provide the section in MIL-STD-2000 where a solder sucker is "prohibited" (or even mentioned!) that would be helpful. Because after browsing the whole document I can not find it. Furthermore, look at this quote from the aforementioned document:"5.4.19.3.1.2 Resolder method of rework. When rework is required defective solder connections and other detects which cannot be corrected in accordance with 5.4.19.3.1.1 shall be reworked by first removing the solder by a vacuum device or wicking and then cleaning and resoldering the connection."I may be wrong but I think the solder sucker qualifies as a "vacuum device". Anyhow, the rest of your argument sounds like deflection.

author: Electro Fan
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 02, 2021, 01:11:42 am
content: Quote from: Microdoser on January 01, 2021, 10:26:15 pmThanks. I appreciate the advice. I'm leaning toward the Atten.fwiw, I've found that what has reasonably improved my ability to solder and has dramatically increased my interest in soldering is using a microscope. I first started soldering a little with my Dad as a kid. I didn't do much soldering as an adult until several years ago as part of my developing interest in electronics. During that time I tried several visual aids including visors - both some eBay visors and some Donegan OptiVISORs with various lenses. I also tried various glasses (readers with various strengths and bifocals) and other magnifying glasses. They all had some benefit but nothing like the microscope. I realize the microscope is a much bigger investment and it might not be required if you have pretty good vision, but if you want to see in great detail what's happening with solder, the soldering iron tip, flux, the components (TH and SMD), the tweezers and various tools, the pads, the joints, etc it's hard to describe how much more you can see with an optical microscope. On the other hand, without the microscope, I'd probably have avoided a number of other soldering-related investments since without the microscope I couldn't see or imagine what the other items might be used for or how they might be used. In any event, soldering has gotten me off mostly breadboards and caused me to look much more closely at circuits and components on PCBs. It's a virtuous cycle or an addiction (TEA) depending on how you look at it, and assuming you can see it.

author: Shock
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 02, 2021, 03:14:51 am
content: Quote from: Electro Fan on January 01, 2021, 08:10:20 pmThe Hakko FX-8804 have a very limited use in my opinion. They are quite an old design and a bit clunky because they are full sized tweezers. Tweezers are typically expensive and generally should come after hot air and vacuum desoldering is considered.At some point though you have to decide where you want to end up and what tools you want to own eventually so before buying Hakko vacuum desoldering or tweezer tools consider Pace, Weller, Metcal and JBC for their rework tools as well. At the moment just owning a Hakko FX888D doesn't matter as it's cheap reliable and a good solid station. But when you get into cartridge based handpieces and rework tools the cost of ownership, usability, upgrade path has some real caveats to it.

author: Electro Fan
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 02, 2021, 04:15:06 am
content: Quote from: Shock on January 02, 2021, 03:14:51 amExcellent advice. Thanks

author: Microdoser
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 02, 2021, 12:33:34 pm
content: Quote from: Electro Fan on January 02, 2021, 01:11:42 amAh, I didn't realise you already had a microscope. For sure, that is one of the best investments. IMO even if you have perfect vision you won't see the things you can with a decent scope. I recently got an Amscope stereo microscope and, as you say, it has improved the scope (pun intended) of my soldering ability just by allowing me to see what I am actually doing. As you also say, it has expanded my desire for better equipmentAnyway, to get back to your original question, I would say that to desolder well, all you need is a solder sucker (if you like them), some half decent braid (Gootwick) and a syringe full of flux (NC-559 aliexpress). Although since getting the flux, I have not used the sucker once. The braid does everything I used to use the sucker for, like getting solder out of holes etc. There is no chance of little bits of molten solder flying about either.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 02, 2021, 02:27:18 pm
content: I would like to have a vacuum gun or pencil capability but like you say, the total cost of ownership has pitfalls for the unwary.I already have an adequate hot air gun, which works fine, I currently usually use braid for desoldering, I just think the speed of a vacuum removal tool would make it the best method.The two brands I'm looking at the most are pace and hakko, but I'd have to buy one used, and the new ones are too expensive.Used, and basic is what I need.I'm hoping to spend under $150 at theabsolute most, and then not have to buy expensive consumables, ever!I'm willing to wait, but the problem as I see it is if I buy the base and handpiece separately, how do I test one without the other?I don't have friends who have similar systems who could help me test them.This site is probably the best site to get unbiased help.Are there particularly good cheap and basic base and handpiece combinations - basically for search strings to search on?Thank you, everyone!Quote from: Shock on January 02, 2021, 03:14:51 am

author: Shock
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 02, 2021, 04:25:53 pm
content: Quote from: cdev on January 02, 2021, 02:27:18 pmA secondhand Pace ST115/SX100 went for $200 on ebay a couple of months back. Toploser sold two new open box Pace ST115/SX90 for $270 here (the more expensive 230V version) about a year and a half ago (as well as a couple of ST75/SX90 manual temp versions). The set of 8 Pace desoldering tips (6993-0288-P1) goes for about $64. The Hakko FR301 is about $227 or so, 4 basic tips for $66 which is more expensive than Pace. I doubt you can pick them up cheaper but you can always try.The main difference is Pace has a good stand, the tool pencil style is fairly lightweight, has optional foot actuation and tons of desoldering tips including ones that pick up the desoldered component and do bga pad prep. Paces vacuum stations can also run Paces vacuum pick tool (7027-0001-P1) you can use it to pick components off when using hot air or use it to pick and place prior to reflow. Paces ST and MT (Intelliheat series) stations take a bunch of different tools. I think on the ST115 at least 9 different tools.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 02, 2021, 04:49:31 pm
content: Thank you for this info.Quote from: Shock on January 02, 2021, 04:25:53 pm

author: uli12us
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 02, 2021, 04:56:38 pm
content: Microdoser; NC-559 from Aliexpress can be everything, because they have many different dealers, from which one had you bought this?The other thing is Amtech says, it only works with leaded solder. But nearly all parts nowadays are leadfree.Electro Fan; I have the Velleman tool as well and think its completely useless. It needs several Minutes to heat and don't reach temperatures you need for lead-free soldered parts.

author: Electro Fan
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 02, 2021, 10:00:46 pm
content: Well, somehow I went for years without paying attention to Pace. Now after having watched their soldering videos, especially the first one several times, I am starting to "get it." It's amazing how after 3-4 times watching that first Pace video I keep seeing more concepts fall into place.... anyone who wants to learn/understand soldering should watch the video:Anyway, now it's dawned on me that as cool as I thought/think Hakko and Weller are, if Pace made all those videos years ago, Pace must know A LOT about soldering. And that light bulb going off kind of woke me to paying attention to Shock's posts - something about what he says resonates as "wisely experienced", especially regarding Pace tools.So that and the whole set of questions around desoldering devices got me to researching Pace tools, which got me to this:Which caused me to read this 58 page thread:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/newest-pace-ads200-production-station-(a-jbc-killer-at-$239)/1400/So now I've been enlightened.For any "newbies" reading this thread, after having purchased a Weller WESD51 (which is good) and then a Hakko 888D (somewhat better), it's very possible that a still better path to soldering might have been just to start with a PACE ADS200. But that still wouldn't necessarily be the end of the path, it might just be a path to a longer path.....So before I go down another short term path.... a few questions for Shock and the many Pace users:1. Is there any merit in looking beyond the ADS200 to a two channel Pace station? (Is there such a thing for the ADS200 product series?)2. What's the best path to get to a Pace system with a hot tweezers? (Just add a MT-200 such as 6993-0321-P1?)https://www.tequipment.net/search/?F_Keyword=6993-0321-P1.Do users find it practical to share two tools on one channel... just power down, disconnect/connect, power back up? Or is that a workflow hassle?(One thing that looks very compelling about the integrated heater tip design is the ability to change out the tips while hot with the change-out tool.)3. Or maybe it makes more sense to forget the tweezers and try to get some quasi-tweezing done either with:a. TD-100 SMT specialty tipshttps://paceworldwide.com/product-catalog/733or b. two irons chop stick style? (I'm making this up - might not be feasible, or safe.)4. Back on the basic ADS-200, this looks like a deal but it doesn't have the ISB...?https://www.tequipment.net/Pace/ADS200-8007-0584/Soldering-Stations/?v=0maybe Pace should offer something similar with the ISB?5. What's the best path to add a Pace desoldering gun to a ADS200 platform? (Is there such a thing?)In trying to learn the Pace product line it kind of looks like maybe they are slowly augmenting the 100 series products with 200 series products, so maybe there will be a two/multi-channel 200 system and a desoldering gun for the 200 in the future? Or maybe these already exist and I just haven't found them?This all gets to the advice that it makes sense to plan the whole route before getting in the car and just driving to the first way point.So, assuming you wanted to start with the ADS200 and wanted to maximize the budget while preserving the option to get to some combination of maybe a hot tweezers and almost for sure a desoldering gun, what would you recommend among the many Pace part numbers?The alternative would be to stand pat with a WESD51 & 888D (neither as good as an ADS200 but with the WESD51 and 888X it's easy to have two different tips hot and ready to go instantaneously), and just add a FR-301 and maybe add either a Atten ST-862D or a Quick 861DW. To be square, this is a soldering growth path (iron, tweezers?, desolder gun, hot air) that Pace should recognize as a reasonable path and they should offer a clear/practical/economical? upgrade path as a competitive alternative.Thanks for any Pace product path advice.

author: Microdoser
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 02, 2021, 10:10:35 pm
content: Quote from: uli12us on January 02, 2021, 04:56:38 pmhttps://www.aliexpress.com/item/32948598235.html?spm=a2g0s.9042311.0.0.45054c4dpYslmoIt was this one purely because it came with the plunger and needle tip. It was ￡2.62 for 2x10ml with shipping costing ￡1.43.I sometimes use temperature-sensitive SMD chips so I only use full-fat solder so NC-559 works fine for me.

author: msat
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 02, 2021, 10:55:41 pm
content: I also have the Velleman heated solder sucker mentioned earlier. Not temperature controlled, but it is grounded and is good for the money. Much easier to work with than a separate iron and sucker. I also see no reason why it couldn't be modified and attached to an external pump.Of course there's no one size fits all tool, or at least not one that's particularly safe (hot air stations).

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 02, 2021, 11:16:22 pm
content: Are you talking about this one?This is likely easy to modify with a bellows foot pedal arrangement with two perch valves (one way reed valves). Make sure it deflates..as well as inflates..But you need a large bottle that's heavy and a airtight stopper with room for two pipes, the bottle is to catch the solder. The initial tubing section needs to be something like silicone that's heat resistant and it needs to be narrow enough so that the solder remains in motion until its safely in the bottle. That means the bottle stopper needs to go around the tube instead of whats usually done with bottles and tubes which uses a rigid tube for the stopper. that will be a bottleneck for solder that we don't want., so get a stopper thats amenable to two pipes of equal size that go straight through. I actually used a pen knife to make the holes myself. It was funky which is probably why I no longer have it. it was a hack.I am going to re-create this. I don't know what happened to it,I used a foot pump that had two valves in it, so it could either inflate or deflate. It wasnt an electric pump but it worked better than the solder sucker I am using now, and its cheaper than the dedicated ones. Very low tech. It could also use a foot pedal and an electric pump. Actually, looking now electric pumps are cheaper now than the manual ones.

author: msat
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2021, 12:35:27 am
content: cdev, I was referring to the one in this post:Quote from: Ice-Tea on December 30, 2020, 10:44:55 amIt's a little awkward to use but works fairly well. The modification I had in mind was removing the piston but retaining the the cylinder (which would contain the solder) and attaching a hose and a small vacuum pump, maybe from a fish tank. Something like the iron you linked to might also work, but they seem to be a bit more expensive, and on their own don't work as well as the one above.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2021, 01:23:10 am
content: The one you had has one advantage over the hand pump and thats not having to hold both the soldering iron and solder sucker. But its not a good design if made with plastic. Is the piston the plastic part? If so, it would be worth a try.Thinking about that I think that for similar reasons the foot pump/bellows could work because the duration of the heat + airflow would not be very long, while a pump might heat it up too much for too long.The foot pump will pull much more air (and solder) than a single blast with the solder sucker. Its not as strong, though.

author: Shock
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2021, 06:02:42 am
content: Quote from: Electro Fan on January 02, 2021, 10:00:46 pmThe Pace ADS200 is especially affordable in the US where at the moment it's about $263 shipped from Tequipment.net for the instant setback version. Out of the commercial main contenders at least in the US it holds performance/dollar and lowest cost of ownership short and long term. It's nearest price competitor is the Hakko FX951 and really the Pace ADS200 just does everything better.QuoteThe Pace ADS200 is the first station in their new Accudrive series (previous series were Sensatemp and Intelliheat). Pace are releasing their first Accudrive multichannel station the MBT450 sometime this year. It's a 3 channel station and should have an inbuilt pump to run their SX100 (SX200 if they release a new one) vacuum desoldering tool.The MBT450 will be what I like to think of as their flagship rework station like the current model the MBT350. They should sell it with a soldering iron, tweezers and a vacuum desoldering tool which will be the most cost effective way of getting those 3 tools I imagine.QuoteIt's not that practical to swap connectors over but livable if you want the cheapest option. I started with two ADS200s for the purpose if I get the MT200 tweezers later I could have them setup on their own station. It also gives me a spare TD200 handpiece. As I have two soldering spaces it's flexible there as well. When Pace brings out their 3 channel and 2 channel Accudrive stations I'll think there will be a clearer path (if you just want to run Pace gear).QuoteThere are many ways to skin a cat. Pace has many tools in the Intelliheat series that do a similar function. If you get the TD200 soldering handpiece and the SX200 vacuum desoldering handpiece when it's out I think it's a logical step to want tweezers next. This is why I said it's easier to look at your end game if you are looking to upgrade your soldering iron and looking into rework tools.Of course don't discount the Metcal, Weller, JBCs systems. I'd include Hakko as a viable option but I own their 75W soldering handpiece FM2027/2028 with the plastic clips and I just don't like it so I'd never build a system around it.QuoteI think thats just a Tequipment deal, yes pays to look at the fine print. I think it's best to get the ISB version as you can always disconnect it later if you need to.QuoteThe MBT450 will have vacuum desoldering. If Pace releases new Accudrive versions of the 5 or so Intelliheat stations that support vacuum desoldering it will add a lot of options, but don't expect them to be released in a hurry because they really need to get this MBT450 station out next as it's comes with all 3 of their main tools.QuoteBest of everything would be to wait for the Pace MBT450 and get all three tools. It's not going to be cheap because firstly the TD200 and MT200 are aluminum tools and have been recently redesigned. But a new SX200 handpiece could be quite costly as well especially if it becomes 120W like the other two or has aluminum incorporated into the design.QuoteWell if you are interested in maximum savings then you could even use a Atten 858D+ and Hakko FX888D. Or for around the same price could look for a T12 clone as a soldering station, I just couldn't bring myself to buy one as I was looking at a secondhand Metcal MX500 system right before deciding on Pace.If I had empty pockets forever I'd use Metcal, but I like Paces vacuum desoldering system more and I really like the TD200 handpiece and adjustable temp. Metcal have recently made an adjustable temp high frequency station but in my opinion they stuffed it up. Trying to be too many things to too many people.QuoteIn my opinion and situation... soldering handpiece, hot air, desoldering gun then tweezers. Just because you can live without tweezers. But if you are doing a lot of smd work you might rank tweezers higher.Pace I'm sure like that the ADS200 is in range of hobbyists or prosumers but that is not their bread and butter or focus. They aim to make reliable/robust tools for manufacturing and military that have a long service life and low cost of ownership. So they aren't trying to compete with anyone in this regard. It's just still early days in Paces Accudrive series. The Intelliheat series is a good 20 years old now and quite comprehensive.

author: nigelwright7557
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2021, 08:54:29 am
content: A very simple and cheap improvement to a hand solder sucker is to put a short piece of silicon tubing over the end.This makes a better seal for the vacuum.It isnt 100% and occasionally I still get a hole that wont clear, but its an improvement.A trick I learned many years ago was to cut the lead fairly short then heat up the lead and flick the pcb (carefully.)This usually expels lead and solder from hole.Just dont do what I did and end up with solder on your nylon trousers as it burns right through to the skin !

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2021, 07:16:00 pm
content: Quote from: Shock on January 03, 2021, 06:02:42 amJust to be clear, unless Shock has insider info that the public isn’t privy to, everything about the MBT 450 other than its model number and Pace’s description of it as a “multi channel rework station” is conjecture. Granted, eminently reasonable conjecture, but nonetheless unconfirmed speculation. We don’t know for sure that it’ll be 3 channels (I thought I saw mention of two channels somewhere?), nor what new handpieces are in the works.Given how well Pace’s older SensaTemp and IntelliHeat systems perform (almost all their handpieces are available for both), they certainly don’t need to be in a hurry to get AccuDrive versions out. Like Shock, I expect that they will trickle out over the course of years.What I am curious about is whether the MBT 450 will support SensaTemp or IntelliHeat handpieces. If so, it may be by having dedicated ports, like the short-lived HeatWise MTS stations did.FYI, some info I cobbled together recently:SensaTemp (6-pin black connector): their earlier standard for temperature-feedback handpieces. Still around today thanks to continued military purchasing of the PRC2000 which has been around for decades.HeatWise (4-pin red connector): short-lived type supporting only two handpieces, Pace’s first cartridge based iron and a tweezer. These stations mostly had one or two black SensaTemp ports as well, for the other handpieces.IntelliHeat (8-pin blue connector): successor standard that combines both SensaTemp and HeatWise signals into one connector, allowing both “native” IntelliHeat handpieces using either SensaTemp or cartridge heating, as well as SensaTemp handpieces via an adapter.AccuDrive (4-pin black connector): second-generation, higher-power cartridge heater type. Given the 4 pins, I assume there’s no way to add backward compatibility in it, so I expect all-new handpieces.(They’re all Amphenol C091B series circular DIN connectors, by the way.)

author: Electro Fan
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2021, 10:25:10 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on January 03, 2021, 07:16:00 pmAs I was reading your post I was thinking it sure would be nice to understand the Pace product family history, then I got to the great summary at the endThanks!

author: Shock
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 04, 2021, 12:50:13 am
content: Quote from: tooki on January 03, 2021, 07:16:00 pmNo I have no insider knowledge what so ever, it just makes sense. They had the Pace Sensatemp MBT250, Intelliheat MBT350 model both 3 channel with vacuum and announced an Accudrive MBT450 model last year.The Sensatemp MBT201 and Intelliheat MBT301 were the 2 channel versions with vacuum. So there might be a MBT401 at some point as well.Based on that I'm guessing the next tool will have to be an SX200 vacuum desoldering tool which is the primary reason for having vacuum functionality on the MBT stations in the first place.QuoteNice if it did, but don't see it happen considering the ADS200 apparently uses same amount of pins as the Intelliheat stations but isn't compatible. I think tweezers and vacuum control may use extra pins.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 04, 2021, 01:39:12 am
content: Quote from: Shock on January 04, 2021, 12:50:13 amAs I said, I actually totally agree with your predictions, they're absolutely logical. It was just a reminder that we don't have any official word on the matter, beyond the tiny teaser.Quote from: Shock on January 04, 2021, 12:50:13 amThere's no way it's the identical pinout, since it's not even the same physical connector, and the 4- and 8-pin DIN connectors aren't one of the combinations that allow the lower-pin-count plug to mate with the higher-pin-count socket.*And it's not electrically compatible, as I understand it.Right now, it seems to me that Pace has three heater/temperature sensor systems, electrically speaking:- SensaTemp (whether in a SensaTemp connector or an IntelliHeat connector), used by all the non-cartridge heaters-HeatWiseIntelliHeat (either in the defunct HeatWise connector, but mostly in the IntelliHeat connector) used in the TD100/TD100A and MT100 cartridges- AccuDrive (in the AccuDrive connector) used in the TD200 and MT200 cartridgesI just found some posts by the Pace rep that used to be very active here, who described it like this:Quote from: PACE-Worldwide on November 04, 2019, 12:06:47 amQuote from: PACE-Worldwide on November 04, 2019, 02:15:14 amWhat I have read between the lines (because the red-connector TD100 and the blue-connector TD100 use the same tips) is that the red HeatWise connector was basically the IntelliHeat electrical standard on its own connector without SensaTemp support.* The TD100 and TD200 cartridges appear to use the same socket within the handle, however:Quote from: PACE-Worldwide on November 04, 2019, 12:56:06 pm

author: Shock
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 04, 2021, 06:10:04 am
content: I edited my post. Where I was going with it was I suspect they probably could have done it and added backwards compatibility to the ADS200 but it would have likely meant more hardware support in the station and more complex firmware changes, then there are things like the WJS100 120W gold series cartridge support that make it even messier (which I suspect was part of the impetus in making the ADS200).I would think their best move is to get away from all the compatibility woes and start with a clean Accudrive series, especially if they intend to revamp the PRC2000 at some point.

author: Fflint
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 04, 2021, 08:51:32 am
content: Quote from: tooki on December 30, 2020, 12:28:59 pmWell, the biggest tip in my case is 1.2mm. The tool has enough suction to remove all solder for tht components with leads thinner than that. I didn't see the need to swap for smaller tip when for example desoldering tiny 0.2mm leads (yesterday, 3 pin laser diode). Despite the tip being way to big it worked fine. So the only time when this tip is really unsuitable is when the lead is too thick, but then you still have to use it as it is the biggest available, or the leads are too closely spaced together - I haven't encountered this yet despite using the tool quite a bit.Regarding temperature, I should have mentioned it is what works best for me for huge variety of tht components. I use a fairly quick technique, if one was going to dwell on the joint longer maybe lower temps would be better.Anyway, I'm pretty happy with the tool. Other than Quick hot air, this is probably the only Chinese tool I have I can recommend.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2021, 11:07:06 pm
content: I was cleaning up my open browser tabs and found this written, but unposted reply to this thread. I'll go ahead and post it, but bear in mind that it was written several days prior to my later responses in the thread! In particular, it's got a nice collection of links to the Pace videos. I was probably making sure I got them all when I no doubt got sidetracked (squirrel!) by something shiny...Quote from: Shock on January 01, 2021, 03:08:56 pmYep. It bugs me that Rossman is so often held up as this great hero, when his technique is actually not that great (he routinely does a lot of "no-no's" like scrubbing pads with solder wick), and his criticisms of the industry (especially Apple) would be easier to take seriously if he were more selective in his criticism, since he clearly either doesn't understand (or chooses to ignore) sound design decisions behind many of the things he whines about.Quote from: Electro Fan on January 01, 2021, 08:10:20 pmFor thethirdtime in this thread, this is why a solder sucker and a vacuum desoldering station are not interchangeable:Quote from: tooki on December 29, 2020, 03:32:15 pmQuote from: Electro Fan on January 01, 2021, 08:10:20 pmWhile I absolutely love GreatScott in so many ways, his soldering technique is atrocious.I've probably posted links to these a dozen times on the forum so far, and I'm sure I'll continue to need to post them every few months, but the Pace soldering videos remain, hands-down, the best soldering tutorials I have ever found, by a wide margin:Basic soldering:EnglishSpanishFrenchChineseSwedishRework and repair:EnglishSpanishFrenchChinesePortugueseAdventures in repair (advanced multilayer board repair):English

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2021, 01:28:28 pm
content: I really like the Pace videos too. Sometimes I leave them on in the background while doing other stuff. Generally I like the music they use.A few people here have given me great tips which have really made electronics more enjoyable for me. This stuff here is great. I'm still looking for a Pace/desoldering setup that is affordable for me. I just cant spend a lot now, Ive always been glad I waited and found that great deal. Ive got a no hands desoldering setup now using a bellows foot pump.

author: cheater
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 23, 2021, 03:53:36 pm
content: My preference is flux and a lot of braid. I don't do a lot of desoldering of very large components, so that works for me.When using braid, make sure to spread it apart - it'll take in WAY more solder and it'll do so much more easily.

author: nigelwright7557
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2021, 08:42:17 pm
content: For SMD I use a cheap hot air gun I got off ebay sub £20GBPWorks a treat.For through hole I use a standard cheap solder sucker but have put a bit of silicon tube over the end to make a better seal than the hard plastic and it works well.I rarely use the hot air gun for soldering smd, I prefer to use the drag soldering to solder chips and dab solder 2/3 pin components.Shorts can be removed by removing all solder from iron, dab some flux paste on the short then heating up short and dragging away from it.If it doesn't un-short after a couple of attempts I get out the Copper braid.