Arbitrary moderation? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2014, 10:45:44 pm
content: The moderation in this forums seems to be very arbitrary recently.For example this thread was closed todayhttps://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/airline-crash-7-17-14/with the reasoning "Thread locked pending some electronics connection." while this onehttps://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/ot-weird-al-gets-tacky/is in it's 6th page.The moderator claims here that he is not arbitrary and it's just a matter of staying on topichttps://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/ot-australia-votes-to-repeal-carbon-tax/msg480558/#msg480558but then he invokes the reasoning of not having electronic content.Any thought?

author: retrolefty
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2014, 10:52:34 pm
content: Well it's an Australian site, different rules.QuoteProblems is 'occasional'; isn't defined, so maybe two in one day is too many?

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2014, 11:38:43 pm
content: One of them is labeled "OT" (Off Topic) the other one is not.

author: David_AVD
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2014, 11:48:08 pm
content: I didn't see the need for the latest plane thread. At least the 'Weird Al' Yankovic one is related to nerds.Anyway, it's Dave's forum and he ultimately calls the shots. Don't like it ? Don't come here.

author: TerraHertz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2014, 12:55:54 am
content: It's not a 'lack of interest', nor is the moderation arbitrary, nor is it motivated by 'keeping discussion on topic of electronics.' The last element is disproved by threads such as the 'which cola do you drink?' which went on for many pages and was never touched at all.Also Dave can't claim it's just Geoffs being a bit too enthusiastic. Geoffs is implementing Dave's own policy, while Dave usually stays out of it to avoid being visibly associated with this kind of censorship. I was disappointed to discover it actually originates from Dave, when he personally threatened to ban me from the site if I posted even one more comment in the MH370 thread. This was after I'd merely listed 'plane lost as a result of actions from outside the plane' among other cases in a logical enumeration of the fundamental possibilities. Personally I think the real reason was that I was trying to start a discussion on the technical details of Inmarsat's public claims. Which is about as on-topic to electronics as you could possibly get, but also carries a risk of turning up something contradictory to the official narrative. Dave's description of my everist.org web site as 'conspiracy central' was particularly amusing. I got the impression his disdain is related to one folder in my site containing lists of links to news articles on various topics - some of which are related to our friends the chosen tribe.Now we see Geoffs very rapidly shutting down a thread, in which the obvious focus would have been 'exactly who's anti-aircraft targeting radar was it, that was detected locking on the plane just before the missile fired?'I think that's on-topic, don't you? And where else is it likely to be discussed sensibly?Off Topic section deletedKeep comments about moderation please.In my view, electronics practice in today's world is intrinsically and unavoidably linked to politics in many ways. To deny people with electronics expertise the opportunity to discuss such matters anywhere in a popular electronics forum, is well into the realm of immoral behavior. I also don't think the reasons claimed for enforcing such a ban are the true reasons. You can work out the real reasons by observing the effect of actions and the specifics of which topics are removed. It's not what they say, it's what they do that matters.If the real reason was to avoid argument disrupting threads throughout the forum, then what's wrong with having a 'Current Events' category? (As if 'General Chat' isn't specific enough for that.) We've seen new topic areas created recently, so it can't be claimed it to be too hard to do. Then those who wish to avoid politics can just not look at it.Incidentally, I'd advise anyone about to post something like the above, to save a local copy first. Screenshots too, if it goes up for a while. PNG is better for text, not JPG.Edit: fix typo. Also just realized: It's probably not a mere coincidence that the plane was Malaysian. There must be many commercial airliners flying over Ukraine each day, so why Malaysian, and why now? I can see an obvious reason.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2014, 01:24:54 am
content: Quote from: David_AVD on July 17, 2014, 11:48:08 pmIt's seems that Dave doesn't mind non electronic thread and participate in some of them (e.g. the Onion and the Weird Al threads) so it seems arbitrary when the somebody else closes the air crash threadhttps://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/airline-crash-7-17-14/for non electronic related content.

author: TheBorg
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2014, 01:49:09 am
content: Quote from: TerraHertz on July 18, 2014, 12:55:54 amPlease, just not now, not in this thread...

author: deth502
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2014, 02:14:16 am
content: ibtl!!seems this comes up every month or so when someone gets butthurt about thier thread being closed.this is a privately owned and maintained discussion forum. if you dont like the way its run, dont come here. if you think you can do it better, start your own, then you can choose to arbitrarily close, lock and/or delete any damn thread you want, but crying in your cheerios here aint doin' shit.

author: Prime73
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2014, 02:18:45 am
content: Quote from: deth502 on July 18, 2014, 02:14:16 am

author: pickle9000
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2014, 02:23:23 am
content: This is an electronics forum, in general. That said, things are discussed outside the field but only up to a point. The points vary according to what direction Dave decides. This is part of his business and he decides.

author: Stonent
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2014, 02:24:58 am
content: Quote from: Prime73 on July 18, 2014, 02:18:45 amMaybe he'll incorporate and we can buy shares

author: pickle9000
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2014, 02:33:58 am
content: Quote from: Stonent on July 18, 2014, 02:24:58 am"Design by comity" Dave would love that.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 18, 2014, 02:35:56 am
content: Quote from: zapta on July 17, 2014, 10:45:44 pmWell, one has a proven history of leading to the conspiracy theory nutters taking over, and the other is just a random topic not likely to pop up again.I'll let you decide which is which

author: TerraHertz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2014, 02:36:24 am
content: Quote from: TheBorg on July 18, 2014, 01:49:09 amDon't worry. If I'd wanted to continue that line I would have. But yes, this is not the place.Regarding the 'moderation', one problem is that many people are probably not aware of how extreme it can be here, since the more extreme instances typically involve outright deletion, without even any indication that something was deleted. I'd suggest that forum members should keep copies of anything they post that might be deleted. Over time, observe the pattern of what gets deleted and what doesn't. It can be quite revealing.Actually I'm surprised this whole thread isn't locked already. It will be interesting to see where it is allowed to go. A discussion of moderation style that excludes from the forum anything that's politically incorrect, even when electronics are directly involved? Now in this discussion, 'on-topic' is demonstrated to exclude electronics! (See my sig, for the text above that was removed.)Presumably any arguments about the moderation that refer to specific political issues will also be removed.So what does that leave? It's hard to imagine a more neutered discussion.What's left is a bunch of people nodding and agreeing that it's Dave's forum (true) and he can run it however he likes (true, if he doesn't care about social justice, morality or Truth), and that anyway anyone who doesn't agree with the 'consensus' is a raving conspiracy theorist. Which is true too, given that most of the bad things that happen in the world actually do arise from conspiracies, and they are generally so appalling that those aware of them do tend to rave.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 18, 2014, 02:44:37 am
content: Quote from: wilfred on July 17, 2014, 11:10:57 pmAnd I wouldn't have guessed that for the Weird Al thread, but it seems to have happenedQuoteYes, it's very fine line that any forum has to run.I really really hate heavily modified forums where anything even remotely off-topic is strictly censored and forbidden, that is why occasional off-topic stuff is allowed.But at the same time you can't have a free-for-all otherwise you devalue the forum for most users and it ends up like usenet.QuoteAnd that's why a moderator stepped in on the new plane thread.This kind of topic has a known habit of degenerating very quickly, and it is clear there is going to be no possible electronic or engineering content here like there was with MH370, it was only ever going to end up politics and conspiracy theories.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2014, 02:51:46 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on July 18, 2014, 02:44:37 amYou can mention it in the reasoning then ('likely to bring conspiracy theories'), otherwise the moderation seems arbitrary.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 18, 2014, 02:56:05 am
content: Quote from: TerraHertz on July 18, 2014, 12:55:54 amFYI I did not even see the new plane thread before I saw this thread.I can't be on here here 24/7 and don't even try to read all the topics any more. More often than not most have scrolled off my "Show unread posts" list, so I never get to see or read many topics.This is why there are two other moderators, but really their main role is to not read threads, it's just to respond to reports etc. But if they (or I) do see something that might get out of hand, we'll nip it in the bud without a report.QuoteCorrect.QuoteIt was a lot more than that and you know it.QuoteNo, it won't be, I'd bet money on it.QuoteBecause that's exactly the same thing a free-for-all General Chat section.It will grow and grow until it dominates the "Unread Posts" section which is how most people use this forum.I want people who come to this forum (both current and new) to seemostlyelectronics/engineering related content.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 18, 2014, 02:58:05 am
content: Quote from: TheBorg on July 18, 2014, 01:49:09 amYes, you see, he can't help himself.And he wonders why I threatened to ban him if he posted in the MH370 thread again.Give them an inch and they'll take a mile.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 18, 2014, 03:05:15 am
content: Quote from: TerraHertz on July 18, 2014, 02:36:24 amThat has little to do with the practicalities of running a large technical forum like this.You'd realise this if you actually had to run one.I'm all for uncensored free speech, and if here wasn't a forum to do that, I'd be the first one to set one up. But this is NOT the kind of forum that was setup for, nor will survive being a free-for-all general topic free speech forum. What part of that is so hard for you to understand?

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2014, 03:15:03 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on July 18, 2014, 03:05:15 amMostly the inconsistency. For example closing a thread for 'non electronic content' while there are many other thriving non electronic threads. It seems arbitrary. If the reason is different it will be useful to mention it in the closing message.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 18, 2014, 03:20:24 am
content: Quote from: zapta on July 18, 2014, 03:15:03 amI have tried to explain this.Unfortunately it has to be "inconsistent" of sorts in order to allow for some occasional off-topic stuff, but also to stop threads and topics that have a known history of getting out of control.It is simplyimpossibleto be 100% "consistent" without turning this into a ridiculously heavily moderated 100% on-topic forum with every post.

author: GeoffS
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 18, 2014, 03:24:43 am
content: I propose a new catch all reason for the locking of threads:"Because"That should keep everyone consistently happy (or annoyed)

author: TheBorg
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2014, 03:36:16 am
content: The obvious solution would be to introduce a separate sub-forum where political controversy, et cetera could be discussed. I frequent another forum where this is implemented, leaving a general community chat which is often off topic but in the sense that the "Weird Al" thread was before it de-railed. Just a bunch of people chatting online...However, as Dave mentioned it has the potential to make the site unusable because it could run rampant.Is there a way to make a sub-forum blocked from the unread list?I see two options here1. A sub-forum catch-all is made, and we have to live with the unread posts (annoying and a turn-off for many users)2. The forum stays just like it is and threads get locked when they run off the rails. Deal with it.I'm perfectly fine with, and even encourage, off topic discussion. I mean, none of us does 100% electronics all day (not even Dave). But I do have to agree with the moderators a lot when they start locking threads that are unrecoverable from the starting intention of the thread.

author: cimmo
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2014, 03:39:02 am
content: I'd like to know why there are only two options to deal with a thread? Consider it "normal" (whatever that is determined to be) and locked?Why not something in the middle? If a mod decides the thread is too far OT or doesn't fit the current paradigm, why not let it continue, unmoderated, but with a flag to warn the easily offended and politically sensitive viewers that they are entering 'no-man's land'?Or maybe just set up a sub-category for these potentially offensive threads and move a thread that has wandered to far OT to this sub-category. If people don't like these threads (including mods) then they don't have to look.What is wrong with having a free-for-all, unmoderated area?"Because that's exactly the same thing a free-for-all General Chat section.It will grow and grow until it dominates the "Unread Posts" section "So, why have these OT posts even listed as "unread"? Is the forum software capable of ignoring postings in a category/section and not appending these to the "unread" list?Edit: TheBorg and I are of the same mind, it seems?Did I get assimilated?

author: GeoffS
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 18, 2014, 03:42:37 am
content: There have been threads where I issue a warning that it's drifting off topic, This results in one of two things happening (often both)1. Someone will complain and want a justification or explanation of why I think it's off topic.2. The thread will continue to go off topic.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2014, 03:56:25 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on July 18, 2014, 03:20:24 amYou can just state the correct reason in the closing message, for example, 'we had bad experience with the other plan thread' or 'we want to avoid conspiracy theories' or whatever the real reason is. This way we can understand what is the reason for closing. Saying 'non electronic content' while there are many other thread with non electronic content makes it look arbitrary and non sincere.Another issue, if you don't like the posting of a few users you don't need to punish collectively all the participants and close the thread for all.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2014, 03:59:18 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on July 18, 2014, 02:56:05 amDoes the forum software allows you to exclude certain boards from the show-unread-posts list? This way you can reduce the OT spam for users that don't look for it.

author: GeoffS
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 18, 2014, 04:03:10 am
content: A moderator (or administrator) can't exclude forums from their view otherwise they can't moderate them.For the same reason a moderator can't have a user ignore list even though there are some users they would love to ignore.

author: Stonent
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2014, 04:10:23 am
content: Holy schneikies, you work fast.

author: GeoffS
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 18, 2014, 04:12:16 am
content: Deleted one off topic post.Lets keep this thread about moderation issues please.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 18, 2014, 04:12:24 am
content: Quote from: TheBorg on July 18, 2014, 03:36:16 amNot that I am aware of.QuoteThat one!

author: corrado33
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2014, 04:15:04 am
content: Seriously people, stop complaining. First off, this is Dave's forum, he can go around and close whatever the heck thread he wants to (or delegate people with the same power.) I have never seen a thread that got closed for a reason I didn't agree with. The plane thread was closed because it was going to degrade into a shitshow within 2 pages. The weird al thread is OK because MOST people aren't arguing in it, and it brings back nostalgia. But the main point is that people really aren't arguing in it.Dave wants this to be an ELECTRONICS ENGINEERING forum, not a random political/current events debate floor. How hard is that to understand? Stop whining and if you don't like it here, please leave.The other solution would be to simply delete the general chat board.

author: David_AVD
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2014, 04:16:23 am
content: There are plenty of other places for people to talk about conspiracies and other junk. There's just no need to post stuff like that here.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 18, 2014, 04:17:09 am
content: Quote from: cimmo on July 18, 2014, 03:39:02 amBecause that does nothing to stop the pollution to the Unread Posts list, the top thread links etc.The problem (and benefit) with forums like this is that the most popular threads get pushed to the top everywhere, and it has been proven that the off-topic opinionated threads get very popular.Thus all new new person here sees is a couple of people bitching about who kill Kennedy or whatever, and it's not a good look for the forum, nor is it good for the regular members to keep seeing this stuff.QuoteNot that I am aware of.

author: mtdoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2014, 04:19:07 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on July 18, 2014, 04:12:24 amIllegitimi non carborundum!

author: Stonent
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2014, 04:19:42 am
content: Quote from: GeoffS on July 18, 2014, 04:12:16 amIt was what I thought a humorous observation on the situation to lighten the mood. I will share with anyone who wants to PM me.Auf wiedersehen.

author: kolonelkadat
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2014, 04:22:12 am
content: In my experience, the moderation here has been top notch.Honestly, Im amazed the administration here humors these two as much as they do. I guess if nothing else, their tolerance goes a long way towards demonstrating just how fairly they run this forum.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 18, 2014, 04:24:49 am
content: Quote from: zapta on July 18, 2014, 03:56:25 amWhich is why I left the MH370 thread open and threatened to ban one person if they posted in there again.The option in that case were:1) Let the free-for-all continue2) Ban the user(s) from an entire section of the forum3) Ban the user completely from the forum4) Lock the thread.There is no option to lock a person(s) from a particular thread, so when someone just won't shut up, the above are the only options.We (the moderators) often simply post a warning in the thread to keep the posts on-topic, and/or stop personal attacks etc.In the case of the latest plane tread there is no way it was ever going to on-topic, and based on experience, no good will ever come from it. So a moderator decided to lock it and I support that.

author: Stonent
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2014, 04:25:23 am
content: Quote from: pickle9000 on July 18, 2014, 02:33:58 amWell that's democracy for ya. If the majority wants it, it should always be the right course of action, right?

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 18, 2014, 04:32:48 am
content: Quote from: kolonelkadat on July 18, 2014, 04:22:12 amI for one value good technical contribution. So I often let a lot of stuff fly that would have got someone else banned.Call that unfair if you like, but I for one think it's a pretty fair system.e.g. I'm going to happily let a valued contributor start the occasional off-topic Weird Al thread, but if some newbie comes in and all they ever contribute if off-topic posts and threads, they will get likely banned.Take TerraHertz for example who complains bitterly about how he is censored or whatever, yet:a) He's not bannedb) I let him keep his signature link to his site where he collects and lists all his posts that have been deleted here.

author: rexxar
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2014, 04:35:47 am
content: Quote from: David_AVD on July 18, 2014, 04:16:23 amI think this is the position Dave and GeoffS are taking, and I agree wholeheartedly. If you want to talk about plane crashes, great, go find a plane crash forum. Politics? There's a forum for that. Religion? There's ten thousand.Electronics? There's a bunch of forums, but this is by far the best one I've been to. There's just no reason for us to have anything but electronics and the occasional OT thread when there are literally hundreds of forums and websites dedicated to topics like the controversial and locked topics we get here.

author: TheBorg
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2014, 04:46:35 am
content: Quote from: cimmo on July 18, 2014, 03:39:02 amAt the risk of this post being deleted (oh, the irony!), yes. You have been assimilated.Your comrades resistance is futile.----------------------Back on topic.It boils down to this. Would we like to see more locked threads, or more banned users?Banning users really isn't an option because I bet almost 90% of the contributing members have made a part in controversial threads.-------------Or, if we consider the issue to be not related to the posts in the thread, I vote that GeoffS changes his avatar. That would alleviate a lot of pent up frustration among forum members.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2014, 04:59:53 am
content: This is how bikeforums.net (a very large forum for everything related to bicycles) handles OT and politics topics. They have a politics board which is readable but only approved users have posting privileges. To get posting privileges you just need ask but if you violate the rules (e.g. personal attack) your privileges get revoked.http://www.bikeforums.net/politics-religion/592286-how-get-p-r-access.html

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 18, 2014, 05:04:48 am
content: Quote from: zapta on July 18, 2014, 04:59:53 amAnd that is great until you realise that now you have to moderate those who wants access and then moderate the extra general vitriol which is no doubt generated and encouraged by having such a place through which to spew it.No thanks.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2014, 05:09:51 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on July 18, 2014, 04:12:24 amDoes this helps?http://custom.simplemachines.org/mods/index.php?mod=2975"This modification allows the categories, boards and topics of your choices to be removed from the recent post lists."

author: Bored@Work
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2014, 05:14:28 am
content: Quote from: zapta on July 18, 2014, 05:09:51 amAre you looking for this?https://www.eevblog.com/forum/profile/?area=ignoreboards

author: GeoffS
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 18, 2014, 05:15:39 am
content: Quote from: zapta on July 18, 2014, 05:09:51 amAs previously explained, a moderator doesn't have the luxury of ignoring forums, posts or users.Plus installing mods is problematical when it comes time to update the main forum software. You have to hope that the person who wrote the mod will produce an updated version to suit any changes in the base SMF software. While mods may involve only small amounts of code, Dave doesn't have a software development team to support them.

author: cimmo
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2014, 05:25:22 am
content: Quote from: GeoffS on July 18, 2014, 05:15:39 amWell, you have certainly made that assertion before, but I don't recall you actually "explaining" the reason why EVERYTHING that happens on the board has to be monitored/moderated. If no other user flags a post for moderation, why get involved?Why not just set up a 'sandbox' where the people here who know each other to some extent, can waffle on about anything? If we do not complain to a mod about any posts, then why not leave us be?Surely the bandwidth isn't an issue? Maybe its a power thing?

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2014, 05:28:03 am
content: This has happened on other forums.For instance:-QRZ.com had a "Ragchew" section for general stuff,but it became clogged with US politics, Conspiracy Theorists,Gun Control Controversies,personal attacks,etc.They set up a new section,"Political Junkies" to cover this stuff.It eventually was overloaded with the same stuff,& was shut down,so they all moved back to "Ragchew".The nutters wrecked that in turn,so it was shut down,only to be brought back in heavily moderated form,with the warning that it was "on probation".If forum users have to suffer heavy moderation,it is their own doing.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2014, 05:30:18 am
content: Quote from: GeoffS on July 18, 2014, 05:15:39 amGeoffS, I think you are missing the point point the second time in this thread. This is intended for users that don't want or did not ask to see the OT board (see Dave post earlier where he want to avoid OT postings dominates the Unread Posts list of new users).

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2014, 05:32:10 am
content: Quote from: Bored@Work on July 18, 2014, 05:14:28 amAm not sure, this may be a different mod:http://custom.simplemachines.org/mods/index.php?mod=1451

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 18, 2014, 05:33:04 am
content: Quote from: zapta on July 18, 2014, 05:09:51 amPerhaps, but what Geoff said is true.And then you still have other issues:1) Also, what about the stats? e.g. most popular forum thread.2) Users end up getting into fights in there and then hating each other etc that perhaps otherwise wouldn't have happened. This animosity can then spill into the main forum.3) Users searching through a users post history, does it still hide it then?4) New users might go check out this politics/free-for-all section, see all the inevitable vitriol and then leave thinking that the rest of the forum is like that.5) Increased moderation workloadand probably other issues.You basically can't hide the fact that off-topic crap will eventually get seen by people, and it will always detract from the appeal of the forum in some way.So no, it's not going to happen, I'm not going to allow this forum to be used as a general off-topic free-for-all. No good can come from it.

author: GeoffS
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 18, 2014, 05:33:51 am
content: Sorry if I misunderstood.Isn't the better way to not have OT postings rather than having to have some mechanism to ignore them?

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 18, 2014, 05:39:05 am
content: Quote from: cimmo on July 18, 2014, 05:25:22 amBecause this is primarily anelectronicsforum.There is absolutely, demonstrably, no good that can come from letting users lose in a free-for-all section.Even if it's private and locked away, it still can, and almost certainly will ultimately create bad will between users that otherwise would never have been the case if we just talk about the stuff that brings us together in the first place, electronics.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2014, 05:41:13 am
content: Quote from: cimmo on July 18, 2014, 05:25:22 amMaybe, mods don't seem to muck around if there is something they think needs doing.Received a PM from one recently, all very polite, conformed with his wishes, replied with a request.....reply?No they are above us all it seems.So we have to have a thread like this to air our dirty laundry.Messy IMOOP +1

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 18, 2014, 05:42:07 am
content: The moderators come from around the world, no agenda's and we are all individuals. If you want "consistent" then tell you what, just flince into something vaguely non electronic and we will delete it - oh wait then we will get accused of being over the top! just can't win can you ?

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2014, 06:03:28 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on July 18, 2014, 05:33:04 amBetter than hating the staff. ;-)One thing that will help with the current structure is to give sincere explanations when closing a thread. Just stating 'non electronic content' where there are many other non electronic threads that are left intact looks disingenuous and arbitrary.

author: Alexei.Polkhanov
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2014, 06:03:47 am
content: According to this definition this topic on what is offtopic is an offtopic by itself and therefore must be deleted.

author: GeoffS
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 18, 2014, 06:07:14 am
content: Quote from: zapta on July 18, 2014, 06:03:28 amThe majority of threads are locked without any explanation at all.You only have to read most of these threads to see why they have been locked.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 18, 2014, 06:07:56 am
content: The problem is that there are 3 of us, we rarely talk and we need to take a decision at times before things get out of hand and in case no one ever noticed this takes time

author: rolycat
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2014, 09:54:51 am
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on July 18, 2014, 09:17:23 amExcept that when normal people have a conversation about deeply held beliefs nothing anyone says is going to shift them. If they happen to have opposing beliefs their efforts to defend them almost invariably descend into shouting matches, andthat'sa problem.QuotePreceding comments with 'no offence' doesn't magically stop them from being offensive.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 18, 2014, 10:21:46 am
content: At the of the day there are very few complaints (as in like a handful a year maybe) about the moderation here. So we must be doing pretty ok?BTW, it'simpossibleto get zero complaints!

author: justanothercanuck
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2014, 10:28:22 am
content: As a former moderator of a linux distro forum, I have to say that the guys here do a pretty good job under the circumstances. I might not agree with everything they do, but it's their forum to do with as they please. If they don't want geo-political or religion-based threads, then that's their choice. There are plenty of other places where we can voice our displeasure of worldly matters. This is an electronics forum, we should be lucky we even have a generic sandbox category for OT threads.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 18, 2014, 10:31:22 am
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on July 18, 2014, 09:17:23 amYes, of course, and that is why off-topic posts are allowed here, because that's just a natural outcome of forums. It would be foolish to try and stop them.Every forum I have seen that tries to enforce 100% on-topic fails miserably.But, almost every forum I have seen that has zero moderation (e.g usenet) just self implodes.So in practice there has to be a balance, and I think we do a pretty good job here by:- Allow occasional off-topic threads, but generally encourage mostly on-topic.- Ban the real nutters (on here it would maybe be a handful a year at most?)- Don't allow personal attacks (the major rule here)- Very occasionally lock threads that will almost certainly lead downhill. (1200 threads a month, how many are locked, a couple?)- Very occasionally delete really offensive posts. (16,000 posts a month, how many are deleted, a dozen?)- Mostly try and lead by example.

author: rolycat
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2014, 10:43:29 am
content: I think the moderation is pitched just about right.I wasn't surprised when the carbon tax thread got locked - I was mostly curious to know what Dave felt about it, but thanks to his tweet that itch has been scratched.Incidentally, has everyone seen the third "What If Google Was A Guy" video?It has a nice example of confirmation bias in action.

author: Stonent
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2014, 11:06:55 am
content: From what I can tell 90 percent of the moderation seems to come from 1/3 of those who can moderate.

author: GeoffS
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 18, 2014, 11:13:26 am
content: Quote from: Stonent on July 18, 2014, 11:06:55 amIt's a matter of availability.Both Simon and Dave have full time jobs and other demands on their time.I'm retired, it's the middle of winter so I spend a lot of time at my desk indoors where it's warm.

author: GeoffS
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 18, 2014, 11:32:19 am
content: A quick count reveals 25 locked threads since December last year. 5 or 6 of these were threads were locked at the OP's request (this also includes about 5 threads originated by rolandpenplotter which no one would argue needed locking)Currently there are (about) 80 posts in the pending deletion forum (deleted posts are moved here prior to permanent removal). The majority of these are posts have been deleted by the poster and not by moderators. This represents about 30 days worth of deletions.I don't have any stats as to total monthly threads/posts to put these numbers into perspective.

author: Fsck
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2014, 11:32:40 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on July 18, 2014, 10:21:46 am

author: joseph.anand
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2014, 11:38:05 am
content: As much as I love conspiracy theories, I visit this forum purely to read up on electronic stuff. I do not contribute much in terms of posts. I had been on vacation for a few days and was not aware of the TI offer on the Chronos Development Kit. If it was not for the moderated website (arbitrary or not) , the post/discussion would have been buried in otherwise mundane OTs. For most of us time is important, and would not like to waste a lot of time trying to catch up on the important discussions/posts related to electronics.Fixed quality control generally involves having a threshold that would rather kick out good posts/threads than allow a bad one to get in. So in this regards having an arbitrary moderation is far better than having too rigid a policy.

author: 8086
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2014, 12:17:19 pm
content: The thing is, while this is an electronics forum, it's also a community of people.As much as we like electronics, it's nice to talk about other things sometimes.Perhaps let the general chat be off-topic, and stop posts from that subforum appearing in the new posts list, so they don't clutter it up?

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2014, 12:21:37 pm
content: Quote from: GeoffS on July 18, 2014, 11:32:19 amIf there are so few locked threads it shouldn't be to difficult to give sincere explanations why they are closed. Otherwise it looks arbitrary.

author: Biff383
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2014, 01:54:12 pm
content: I'm sorry for posting the airline thread. At the time I had no idea what had happened to make Iit crash. I was thinking that it could have been carrying li-ion cells or something. I was interested in if it would give a clue as to what happened to the other one. I did not think it would be a controversial topic. It looks like the i did not think part was the main problem.I'll ban myself for a while.Ron.

author: GeoffS
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 18, 2014, 01:56:21 pm
content: Quote from: Biff383 on July 18, 2014, 01:54:12 pmNo need Ron, I can do that for you

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2014, 02:15:12 pm
content: Quote from: Biff383 on July 18, 2014, 01:54:12 pmIt's not you. Many other non electronics thread are left intact, for example the Buzz Aldrin thread which evolved into what is art, when violence is justified and astronauts pay scale (and was a fine thread IMO).https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/sat-july-26-meet-buzz-aldrin/

author: idpromnut
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 18, 2014, 02:59:36 pm
content: @Dave, Simon & Geoffs:Being an administrator of a gaming group, I know the feeling. As always, the "correct" course of action is to do what you feel is the correct thing or close up shop and doing something different. Please don't close up shop just yet

author: GEuser
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2014, 03:55:44 pm
content: If you ever need a moderator named the "Mechanic" pm me ..I'll fix em ..http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0068931/

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2014, 04:19:18 pm
content: Quote from: Biff383 on July 18, 2014, 01:54:12 pmDon't be sorry. A good forum has room for offtopic threads as well otherwise forum could 'die'. Maybe that thread would have gone into 'how to make your own anti-guided missile system'.

author: ajb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2014, 05:04:58 pm
content: Quote from: zapta on July 18, 2014, 06:03:28 amFWIW, this would be the only complaint I'd make about moderation here. Ultimately, this is Dave's forum, so it's his prerogative to set the rules and none of us are owed any sort of explanation or even input. But at the same time, transparency of the rules and criteria for locking/deletion fosters understanding, good will, and ultimately better compliance.As an example, I really like the way Ars Technica handles theirforums. They have a huge and diverse community with heavily trafficked off topic sections (even one dedicated to politics!). Any moderation actions--even just reminders to get a thread back on-topic--are accompanied by an explanation in a clearly delineated "Official Moderation" notice, which helps to clearly indicate when moderators are acting in their official capacity or simply as individuals. Pretty much the only thing that's ever deleted is outright spam (in fact it's against the rules to delete one's own post after there's been another reply to the thread), and on the rare occasion when a post is edited by a moderator the action is clearly noted with an official notice. Threads that get out of hand are locked, with an explanation left by a moderator. Individuals that misbehave are given a limited number of in-thread official warnings, followed by a temporary ban, and ultimately a permaban if they fail to shape up. All in all it leads to a pretty good system, I think. Maybe not suitable for every forum, but it definitely works there.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2014, 05:06:43 pm
content: Moderation here is fine. I have seen some where the topic got very off track ( and I saved it, and it was Australian, and I gave half of it the next day to the banned member when he was sober, not good posting when plastered) and caused a lot of friction.There is a fine line between being too strict and not strict enough, and here it seems to be around the right level. When I ran a mailing list ( and had to approve all posts with the amount of canned mystery meat that came in) I was given both ways all the time. Kind of Sux but hey, you get a thick skin and can tell them to go sit on something and rotate, and as I knew most I could do so in person as well. Some you couldn't tell direct to their faces and expect to walk away with teeth, so there was sometimes diplomacy involved.As to Rolandpen, there was nothing wrong with him that a few more years out in the real world, a lot of Ritalin and a straitjacket could not cure.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2014, 05:11:39 pm
content: Quote from: ajb on July 18, 2014, 05:04:58 pmI think that this is cleared to all. Nobody questions the legality of the moderation here. This thread is about it seemingly being arbitrary, non transparent and hard to predict.BTW, I agree with your entire post.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2014, 07:56:00 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on July 18, 2014, 05:41:13 amWell, it's nice to see the Mod's watching this thread very closely and as a result they have put my little issue to bed.He apologized for the oversight.Proves they are human.

author: johansen
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2014, 10:23:56 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on July 18, 2014, 07:56:00 pmyes, but cowards.fess up, who deleted my comment.

author: SirNick
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2014, 10:56:30 pm
content: That was me. I spilled some coffee on it, then tried to wipe it off, but that only made it worse. So I deleted it hoping nobody would notice. Sorry about that.

author: johansen
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 19, 2014, 12:03:24 am
content: Quote from: SirNick on July 18, 2014, 10:56:30 pmthanks, i needed the laugh.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 20, 2014, 02:30:15 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on July 18, 2014, 02:28:50 pmLooks like this question will stay answered. Hopefully Management internalized some of the feedback and will be more transparent and consistent.

author: electronics man
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 20, 2014, 07:46:00 pm
content: i have noticed when dave contributes to an ot thread it doesn't get locked, but when he doesn't it does get locked, maybe we should implement a rule that says threads that directly point out that they are ot are less likely to get locked, like the mh17 thread shouldn't have got locked it wasn't like every one was getting angry, i think that was a step too far for mods, plus threads should only be locked at users request (within reason)

author: deth502
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 21, 2014, 02:12:29 am
content: i heard its all a money making scheme.the mods keep locking threads for a reason.they are trying to get loc-tite as a forum sponsor.

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 21, 2014, 02:28:42 am
content: Quote from: deth502 on July 21, 2014, 02:12:29 amMakes sense, after all they own multicore solder and they are going to try to push that onto us.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 21, 2014, 11:06:16 am
content: Of course,you don't only get "aggro" on non-Electronic threads.If you dare to say analog Oscilloscopes are better than DSOs at some things,(or vice versa),the "true believers" will come out on both sides.Both us "Greybeards" & the "Thoroughly modern Millies" are stuck in our positions like quicksand!

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2014, 12:55:19 am
content: Quote from: electronics man on July 20, 2014, 07:46:00 pmThat's a kin observation. The Russian thread has a Dave post in it so it keeps going discussing how trust worthy are Russian vs. Ukraine women. Of course now they will close it to show that your rule is wrong

author: Prime73
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2014, 12:58:25 am
content: Quote from: zapta on July 22, 2014, 12:55:19 amBut that thread just started to get interesting

author: johansen
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2014, 02:20:25 am
content: Quote from: wilfred on July 22, 2014, 01:35:19 amno, threads get locked down whenever a few open minds challenge the religiously held opinions of the masses.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2014, 02:33:33 am
content: Quote from: johansen on July 22, 2014, 02:20:25 amIn several occasions the past Dave closed or deleted posts that contradicted his personal believes, be it on religion, global warming, guns, subsidies and things like that. Haven't noticed it this bias recently so it got better in this respect.

author: GeoffS
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 22, 2014, 02:51:06 am
content: Quote from: zapta on July 22, 2014, 02:33:33 amI don't see the problem with closing threads on global warming, religion, guns, etc. After all, this is an electronics forum.

author: PedroDaGr8
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2014, 03:21:45 am
content: Personally, I am fully OK with Dave being biased if he wishes on non-electronic topics. His forum is not a politics forum, a funny forum, a conspiracy theory forum, etc. If he wants to cull these threads when they get out of hand so be it. I don't always agree at the point in which he closes threads (often i'd kill them sooner) but I like that its not an outright ban. It allows the flow of the forum to be more natural not so prison like.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 22, 2014, 07:57:16 am
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on July 18, 2014, 01:03:52 pmThe problem with such rules is that they don't allow any flexibility.OK, I could have a rule that says "no mention of religion".So what if someone throws in a religious joke at the end a technical post or something, and it leads to no further discussion.Is that user supposed to get banned? get a warning?Should the post be edited or deleted to remove the reference?What I'm getting at is that rigid rules don't totally work in practice. A workable forummustinclude some form of moderator discretion in order to work and not make it appear that forum is not overly policed, which IMO isworsethan it appearing "arbitrary".

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 22, 2014, 08:00:56 am
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on July 18, 2014, 02:28:50 pmIt wasn't closed because there is no history of Buzz Aldrin/NASA history talk leading to a 50 page thread filled with extremely opinionated posters.But a thread on airline crashes does have a history of such a thing.There is a big difference.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 22, 2014, 08:03:04 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on July 18, 2014, 04:19:18 pmWell if someone had quickly posted that took it in a technical direction, how guided missles worked, or whatever, and people started talking about that, then the thread wouldn't have been closed.This forum is whatyoumake it.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 22, 2014, 08:08:15 am
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on July 18, 2014, 06:46:49 pmI'm not.Look at the numbers I posted before, there is in practicevery littlemoderation on this forum, bordering on bugger-all.Some people like to complain and start a big thread like this in the rare case when it happens in way they don't approve of, but they forgot the countless times the forum works just fine with what is ultimately very little moderation.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 22, 2014, 08:14:14 am
content: Quote from: zapta on July 20, 2014, 02:30:15 pmHe already answered that, because the thread (a known problem topic) was not headed toward any technical content.As I said, if it did, then it wouldn't have been closed.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 22, 2014, 08:17:51 am
content: Quote from: wilfred on July 22, 2014, 01:35:19 amI've locked a thread I've posted in, more than once...And I'm fairly sure the other mods have locked a few too.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 22, 2014, 08:20:18 am
content: Quote from: zapta on July 22, 2014, 02:33:33 amI personallylovedebating those topics!, and indeed do so on other forums.Here I have locked them for the good of the forum, not because someone disagrees with me.

author: GeoffS
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 22, 2014, 08:52:39 am
content: Warnings are a waste of time. I've placed warnings in a thread and the thread still continues in the same unwanted direction.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2014, 09:00:03 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on July 22, 2014, 08:08:15 amDave, you are missing the point of this thread. It's not about a thread that got closed but about the meaningless 'no electronics content' justification given while other non electronics threads are left intact.How about giving us the real reason for closing? For example, 'we had bad experience with the other plane thread and we expect this one to go bad as well'. Otherwise the moderation looks arbitrary.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 22, 2014, 09:05:01 am
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on July 22, 2014, 08:46:56 amUltimately I don't see what the big deal is.So a thread gets closed for a certain reasonvery occasionally, so what?If you want to continue the discussion in some way, you are welcome to start up another thread.Moderators do occasionally post a "settle down" or "please keep it on topic" warning. But quite often as Geoff pointed out, they do go unheeded.Some people just won't get the message unless the thread is locked.If you really absolutely have a thread unlocked for some reason of continuity, or you are the OP, then contact me and I'll certainly consider it.

author: GeoffS
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 22, 2014, 09:05:27 am
content: QuoteSo if I remove that justification text, you'll be happy and go back to posting about electronics?

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 22, 2014, 09:09:01 am
content: Quote from: zapta on July 22, 2014, 09:00:03 amI get it, and I have explained why this particular thread was locked in this instance several times now, so I won't repeat myself again.QuoteI did say exactly that, go back and read my posts.

author: David_AVD
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2014, 09:13:18 am
content: I'm happy with the moderation provided by Dave andhischosen moderators. Maybe some people should put more effort into more on-topic posts.Sometimes I've written a reply, then thought about it (not relevant or whatever) and cancelled before hitting the post button.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 22, 2014, 09:13:54 am
content: Look, this issue of moderation willnevereverbe resolved to everyone's satisfaction.It impossible, no matter what we do, no matter how politely (or not) we do it, someone will always find a reason to complain about the way moderation is handled (or not).We could do everything you want, and still there will be another thread like this in 6 months time from someone else complaining that we are doing it wrong.We can't win no matter what we do.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 22, 2014, 09:15:56 am
content: Quote from: David_AVD on July 22, 2014, 09:13:18 amI've deleted plenty of postsafterI've hit the Post button!

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 22, 2014, 09:16:36 am
content: Quote from: David_AVD on July 22, 2014, 09:13:18 amYes,that.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2014, 02:56:59 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on July 22, 2014, 09:09:01 amCommunication is hard.I was referring to future threads in general.

author: ProBang2
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2014, 03:16:26 pm
content: Quote from: GeoffS on July 22, 2014, 09:05:27 amMaybe it would be a good idea to replace the justification text with this...

author: Prime73
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2014, 03:21:56 pm
content: Quote from: ProBang2 on July 22, 2014, 03:16:26 pmI like that

author: Wytnucls
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2014, 04:09:57 pm
content: +1

author: johansen
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2014, 04:39:32 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on July 22, 2014, 08:20:18 amyour honesty here is in question.

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 22, 2014, 06:58:51 pm
content: Wow, nice thing to say. You have no idea what a pain it is running a forum and trying to make everyone happy. Dave might participate in off topic subjects and might even fan the fires too. He is human and so he makes mistakes. Or maybe he thinks that he can participate in a lively but civilized discussion and then it goes off the rails. So? This has nothing to do with honesty.If you don't like the moderation, don't contribute or participate. It is that easy. Does Dave have a responsibility to his forums users? Sure. Does he have to be perfect? Who is?

author: SirNick
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2014, 07:16:41 pm
content: Quote from: Lightages on July 22, 2014, 06:58:51 pmNot really. Sometimes it sucks being the lowly user, but at the end of the day, "his forum, his rules" -- FIN ACK. No one likes to be cut-off when they have a point to make, but that's life online. IMO: Let it go. If any minds were going to change, they would have by now. This is just beating dead horses.

author: rolycat
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2014, 07:33:45 pm
content: Quote from: johansen on July 22, 2014, 04:39:32 pmI have to agree with Lightages, that's a really nasty thing to say with very little justification. Dave is famously honest to the point of brutality when it comes to his reviews and other blogs, which is a large part of their charm. The only difference I can see with his forum comments is that they are generally rather more diplomatic, often in the face of major provocation.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2014, 07:59:49 pm
content: -your honesty here is in question-there is an American saying that you can benefit from. Its about not hurting the hand that feeds you.you may be justified in saying what you said. From where I stand, it isn't true.

author: SirNick
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2014, 08:36:52 pm
content: Quote from: dannyf on July 22, 2014, 07:59:49 pmAnd another (although I don't think it's American in origin): "It's good to be the king."

author: Stonent
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2014, 11:03:22 pm
content: Quote from: SirNick on July 22, 2014, 08:36:52 pmI'm picturing Mel Brooks right now.

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2014, 11:42:43 pm
content: No comment to what is going on other than to show my support for Dave and the moderators.If I got bent every time my voice is not heard I would be a pretzel by now. Life is to short to sweat the little things.

author: mtdoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2014, 11:49:58 pm
content: Quote from: miguelvp on July 22, 2014, 11:42:43 pmAbsolutely! Kudos to Dave and the mods for the work they do and for having the stones to not bend to the whiners and malcontents. The forum is just fine as it is.

author: Richard Crowley
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2014, 11:57:46 pm
content: Quote from: johansen on July 22, 2014, 04:39:32 pmYour charge of dishonesty is completely unsupported by the facts in evidence.If you don't like this forum, nobody is forcing you to stay and participate.If you think you can do better, nobody is stopping you from creating your own forum with YOUR rules. Good luck with that.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2014, 02:09:16 am
content: I just thought I'd mention for anyone who hasn't discovered it yet: there is an off-topic discussion forum for the whole internet, where nothing can ever be on topic because there is no "topic". For the curious, the forum is here:http://www.crazyontap.com/If you really want off topic discussions, go have a try

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2014, 03:55:10 am
content: Quote from: IanB on July 23, 2014, 02:09:16 amOr check eevblog.com. For examplehttps://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/ot-weird-al-gets-tacky/;-)

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 23, 2014, 05:59:03 am
content: Quote from: johansen on July 22, 2014, 04:39:32 pmWhy is my honesty under question?If you don't believe me then what am I supposed to do?Want a statutory declaration sworn on the Art Of Electronics and witnessed by a JP?Go ahead and try to prove I'm lying, you'll look like a complete fool.

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2014, 06:22:49 am
content: Just don't mention: "Give them an inch and they'll take a mile." again, the metric purists might come get you."Give them a hand and they'll will take an arm" is better, just avoid feet

author: Cside
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 14, 2014, 11:26:17 am
content: Why were Peter.mitchel and my posts deleted?I don't believe that is fair neither of us were out of line.Moderators are retarded on here.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 14, 2014, 11:49:01 am
content: I've not followed the whole topic through but there seems to be talk of on or off topic.My feeling is that while we won't allow a topic to start on a very off topic subject or an openly controversial one that is not relevant to the forum some threads will of course drift off topic and that is not a problem. At the point the discussion gets over heated or very very far off topic it will be locked, I think that is a fair compromise.

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2014, 03:14:08 pm
content: Funny, mine don't get deleted, then again not most of my posts look like I'm attacking some other society, do you think the problem might be yourself?

author: marshallh
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 17, 2014, 04:46:03 pm
content: If you're gonna white knight, do it properly:http://www.gingersoftware.com/english-online/spelling-book/confusing-words/misogyny-misogamy

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 17, 2014, 05:01:03 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on September 17, 2014, 04:35:26 pmHow about you stop being so forceful about your opinions and stop complaining when people do the same back. Shouting matches don't solve anything and that accounts for the majority of your posts that I've seen of late. Reasoning and is clearly not your top skill!

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2014, 05:03:10 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on September 17, 2014, 03:06:15 pmI would check with Geoff. He recently deleted posts in a thread that Dave started which is a first but he left a note there.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2014, 05:04:34 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on September 14, 2014, 11:49:01 amThis sounds reasonable. Do you also leave a note when you delete messages?

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 17, 2014, 05:07:30 pm
content: Quote from: zapta on September 17, 2014, 05:04:34 pmYes I do, I'll either remove a portion or blank the whole thing with a red message saying that i did and why. We don't have a set procedure and it probably depends on peoples time.I can only but dream of the days we were small and cordial and moderated ourselves with no need for official moderators.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2014, 05:19:13 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on September 17, 2014, 05:07:30 pmThis also sounds reasonable.Quote from: Simon on September 17, 2014, 05:07:30 pmWhat did the moderators do with their spare time? Hopefully not torturing puppies. ;-)

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 17, 2014, 05:24:29 pm
content: We had more time to post and everyone knew each other better.

author: GeoffS
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 17, 2014, 05:26:54 pm
content: Quote from: zapta on September 17, 2014, 05:19:13 pmTorture puppies? Never.Torturing kittens is much more fun

author: Yago
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2014, 05:37:01 pm
content: Quote from: GeoffS on September 17, 2014, 05:26:54 pmIt's how the bagpipes were invented after-all! :p

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2014, 05:45:26 pm
content: You do know the bagpipes were regarded as a lethal weapon.......The only instrument that has never been modified to have an electronic pickup so that you can amplify it.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 17, 2014, 06:11:40 pm
content: Quote from: SeanB on September 17, 2014, 05:45:26 pmmight be something to do with the bags of hot air that play them, haven't you noticed how much they have been putting out over the last few weeks ?

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2014, 06:26:31 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on September 17, 2014, 06:11:40 pmTomorrow is the D day. You may need to remove the blue from your flag. ;-)

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2014, 06:32:52 pm
content: Nah, the Scots will vote to keep themselves Scottish and part of the UK. Otherwise who will buy the booze they distill, and where will they get oats from cheap.Lot of hype AFAIKS and all designed to part wads of cash from the public trough for some.

author: GreyWoolfe
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 18, 2014, 12:47:47 am
content: Quote from: Simon on September 17, 2014, 06:11:40 pmQuite understandable. Ears would bleed,organs would rupture, dogs/cats heads would explode, home/auto windows would shatter, home/auto alarms would go off and the earth would probably tilt off it's axis and fall into the sun.

author: GeoffS
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 18, 2014, 01:07:52 am
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on September 18, 2014, 12:47:53 amIt wasn't 'said' by Sgt Rock. It was a quote from Bill Cosby, perhaps that's where you should aim your complaint.You post was deleted, you know why, you had the option to rephrase your post but decided instead to complain.If you feel that strongly about it, contact Dave directly, PM, email or the Report tp Moderator button will do it.

author: apelly
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 18, 2014, 04:25:58 am
content: The moderation on this forum is most excellent. It is good to see broadly on-topic conversation. That is why I come here. I do not care about your mother's cat.Thank you Geoff & Simon.

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2014, 04:32:37 am
content: I don't get it, nothing in that quote is against women, quite the opposite it says that woman want their mate to agree with them which is quite true but phrased funnier.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 18, 2014, 05:02:23 am
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on September 17, 2014, 03:10:25 pmI have not seen your complaint on this (I've had an issue with moderation reports not being email to me, but I think that's fixed now), but that was not SgtRock saying that is was Bill Cosby quote. It's not misogynistic, and was not worth reporting. If you don't see the humor in then I suggest that you try harder. You don't have to like the humor, but you should understand that it is humor and not worthy of complaint.SgtRock adds these random quote to every one of his posts.

author: TheBorg
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2014, 05:04:35 am
content: How about this - if the moderators don't like it, close the thread.Then they don't have to see it and eventually everyone will forget about it.Changing posts or deleting posts seems to simply lead to everyone being angry and posting about it somewhere else...

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 18, 2014, 05:12:01 am
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on September 18, 2014, 12:47:53 amI see your post in the deleted threads section and it was deliberating provocative and completely off-topic and likely would have derailed the thread.That's why it would have been deleted.QuoteBecause it's just a random quote that has nothing to do with the thread. And here's the important bit, it's a joke, you do know that Bill Cosby is a comedian, right?QuoteGet over it, you are making something out of nothing here.QuoteRubbish.QuoteI think the only person who has a problem with it is you. Because you don't seem to understand the context of it.I will not debate this any further, the other moderators can feel free to if they like, but I'm not wasting another second on it.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 18, 2014, 05:13:02 am
content: Quote from: wilfred on September 18, 2014, 05:05:28 amOwned!

author: GeoffS
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 18, 2014, 05:13:37 am
content: Quote from: wilfred on September 18, 2014, 05:05:28 amAgreed! There have been a few threads started regarding moderation and I've tried to merge them into one. If there are valid moderation issues raised then Dave can see them here and take any action he considers appropriate.Most people get over a deleted post - eventually.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 18, 2014, 06:57:59 am
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on September 18, 2014, 03:54:14 amYour not Scottish by any chance are you ?You seem to have a problem with sgt rock end of, so you are picking up on what was supposed to be a humorous comment because you think you can use it to persecute him. As Dave and myself discussed a while ago the guy is our resident strange but harmless person and given your post count you should know this by now so to be honest your bang out of order. You have both been reporting each others posts and frankly I'm sick of it. There are of course a couple of hand fisted ways of dealing with the situation but that won't go down well either despite the eternal peace it would create for the rest of us. so perhaps just get over it and learn that everyone does not have to agree with you. There is arguing a point and there is not letting anyone get a word in edgeways and throwing more mud at them than they can be bothered to deal with, don't confuse it with winning an argument. We all use this forum for fun. Your not making it fun anymore.............

author: Stonent
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2014, 09:13:55 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on September 18, 2014, 05:02:23 amWhat's the difference between women wanting to hear what they think in a deeper voice and Mrs. Jones being referred to as "She who must be obeyed"?I mean they are jokes that are about equal I'd say in severity.So on an offense scale of Inland Taipan to the little geckos that eat bugs under your porch light during the summer... Gekos win.

author: GreyWoolfe
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 18, 2014, 11:57:18 am
content: I agree, my wife has a good laugh when I use the SWMBO term. She thinks it's funny and says, when I say it, see-he knows who is boss! I learned a long time ago to try not to take everything, including myself, too seriously.

author: SgtRock
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 18, 2014, 12:24:12 pm
content: Greetings EEVBees:--Inasmuch as Simon has branded me the "resident strange" while dragging me into the middle of this, even though I have made no complaint about moderation, I think some background information on this situation is warranted. I have reported Mojo Chan to moderation for direct personal insult to someone other than myself. I also have reported a person for direct personal insult to Mojo Chan. I recall seeing a post from administration encouraging the reporting of insulting behaviour because it is difficult to check all posts. Now Simon has decided that he is sick of it, and that I am the "resident strange" Some time ago I collected a large sampling of quotes from a member, who was prone to posting comments with "sucking it" in them. This person even referred to me as Sgt. Fluffer, about which I did not complain. I did not report any of this to moderation, I started a thread called "Troll House Cookies" containing the repeated offensive and disgusting insults. Needless to say a couple of things happened. The first was that someone said in the thread that my post was not electronics related. I answered that in the General Chat description it says anything goes. The second thing that happened was that the description changed to what is says today, and the thread was locked. Simon's reaction to my "Troll House Cookie" post, revealed that he was much more upset with me for quoting profanity and insults, that he was at the poster of the insults, and so the thread was locked and the description of General Chat was changed.--Although I was not completely satisfied with the way the above was handled, as I have stated repeatedly I think moderation is doing a very good job, and that they cannot be expected to please everyone. I still feel this way. I reported Mojo Chan for insulting someone other than myself, and MC has reported me for quoting Bill Cosby. Simon seems to think that this amounts to some kind of ongoing feud, which he is sick of. I only reported insults to members other than myself because of the stated request by administration, and the fact that I am tired of perfectly good threads being shut down because people will not control their hostility, and argue cogently and politely. Moderation has my express permission to publish any of my reports, which are few, they deem to be frivolous, or motivated by the mind set of feud. I did not ask to be drug into the middle of this scrum, and poor mouthed by Simon for doing as requested, but there you have it. Lastly I doubt very much that Bill Cosby whom as far as I know loves everyone without regard to race or gender is prejudiced against the fairer sex, and if I did I would not quote him."“Men read maps better than women because only men can understand the concept of an inch equalling a hundred miles.” ?"Roseanne Barr 1952 -Best RegardsClear Ether

author: HackedFridgeMagnet
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2014, 12:30:20 pm
content: If you don't want your posts deleted I suggest you get that fourth yellow square, or in other words change from Super Contributor to Supporter.Pay to win.oops I just looked, my Supporter tag is gone. I thought I was paid up.QuoteEven though I don't often agree with you Sgt. I too thought that tag was a bit unfair.I laughed nevertheless.

author: GeoffS
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 18, 2014, 12:48:09 pm
content: Time to leave this subject alone I think.Unless you're commenting or complaining about moderation, no more posts.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2014, 02:57:35 pm
content: Quote from: SgtRock on September 18, 2014, 12:24:12 pmWhich reminds me of a funny situation from my childhood. My mother wanted to see a waterfall in Switserland on the way back from Italy. My father stated it would extend the holiday by one whole day because it was a long detour. My mother won the argument by saying it was only a short detour on the map while pointing on a map with most of Europe on it.Anyway, the waterfall was very nice and the food in the youth-hostel was good@Geoffs: sorry, I didn't got to your posting yet

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2014, 03:40:24 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on September 17, 2014, 05:07:30 pmYes I do, I'll either remove a portion or blank the whole thing with a red message saying that i did and why. We don't have a set procedure and it probably depends on peoples time.I can only but dream of the days we were small and cordial and moderated ourselves with no need for official moderators.Might be interesting sharing with us mortals how moderation looks from your view. Not in the context of any specific incident but general impression, experience, frustration, etc.

author: Yago
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2014, 04:01:12 pm
content: Quote from: zapta on September 18, 2014, 03:40:24 pmMight be interesting sharing with us mortals how moderation looks from your view. Not in the context of any specific incident but general impression, experience, frustration, etc.I have moderated a few fora, and IMHE, the harder you try to please people, the more shit gets flung at you.

author: GeoffS
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 18, 2014, 04:08:17 pm
content: As one of the other moderators, I'll throw my 2cents worth in here.The number pf spammers is quite low and they will get picked up by someone and reported if we miss them. Ban the user and delete the posts. Not a lot of work there.If a thread gets too far off topic, I'll start to delete posts which usually gets it back on track. Warnings don't work as someone will always think they don't apply to them. As a last resort, I'll lock a thread.If a thread starts off topic, it will be locked or in some cases deleted.Abusive posts or personal attacks happen less often and have resulted in temporary or permanent bans along with post deletion.The worst type of moderation is when someone takes it personally and won't leave a subject alone ,as has happened recently, which has resulted in the user receiving a temporary ban so they can cool down.If I seem to delete more posts than Simon, it's only because he has a full time job and I don't. I tend to keep strange hours (it's 2:00AM here) so can keep an eye on things.Compared to some forums I've been on, the users here are well behaved and generally accept the level of moderation necessary.As always, Dave has the final call should someone not be happy with any moderation action.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2014, 04:13:14 pm
content: As someone who has moderated before ( not here thankfully) you get abuse, scorn and second guessed all to hell from every person. Too strict, not strict enough, you did not give a reason, you gave a poor reason and all shades in between. But as I met the people in person a lot you could at least talk things over and not let it escalate too much.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 18, 2014, 07:47:35 pm
content: Quote from: SgtRock on September 18, 2014, 12:24:12 pmIt was not my intention to cause any offense. You have to admit that you have a "singular" posting style, no one writes em like you do, and my whole point has been that I don't have a problem with that but "someone" has seized on it as an excuse to cause trouble and I've been telling him to stop being silly. You do often make posts that will turn controversial and i have had reports about your topic starters but i have told people not to worry and let it be as i know you mean no malice and it will be others that turn it bad, everything ends up off topic anyhow.I did not act on a large number of posts you reported because the "offender" was having a go at me in a controversial thread i started anyway so I thought best to let things lie, I have a thick skin - online anyway and didn't want to be seen to be acting "in my own interest". Of course your reports will have been received by Dave (maybe he's not had them all) and geoff who are better positioned to intervene if I'm involved in the reported posts.As we keep saying there are no hard fast rules, generally we don't tolerate name calling as this is just a sign that you don't have a counter argument and won't admit your wrong and we have a world and history of examples of what that brings.Other examples of where i have used my personal knowledge of users to act in a balanced way is when i got reports of a user (who had been a user since the days we were small friendly and self moderated) was calling a bloke a "nigger". Now i know that this particular user is somewhat culturally challenged due to his location and when i read the whole thing I came upon a youtube video he was referring to in which the black person in the video called himself a nigger which is all the unknowing user had repeated. So knowing this users character and that he never posts with malice it was clear he had made an honest mistake (as if to call a guy what he calls himself should be a bad thing) and explained to him and the other raging users where the misunderstanding lay. Had i acted instantly with hard and fast rules I'd have chastised someone who made an honest mistake (although I wouldn't even call it that). This is the sort of work we have to go to to moderate effectively and it takes time.

author: SgtRock
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 19, 2014, 04:08:49 am
content: Dear Simon:--Come to think of it strange is not so bad I guess, though I would prefer eccentric, if you must. It is all good. Just you guys keep after the outright hostility. I know I have been tempted at times to tell other posters to "see if they cannot find a rolling doughnut somewhere that is otherwise unoccupied." I hope I have learned to hold my water, and counter with logical argumentation and facts rather than branding folks deniers and such. Mules can be stubborn, so first you have to get their attention, that is where the 2X4 lumber comes in. Cheers!"A computer would deserve to be called intelligent if it could deceive a human into believing that it was human."Alan Turing 1912 - 1954Best RegardsClear Ether

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 19, 2014, 07:11:20 am
content: Yes eccentric is the word i should have used, it's far more accurate.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2014, 09:18:38 am
content: Quote from: SgtRock on September 19, 2014, 04:08:49 amYeah Sarge,"strange" isn't bad!On one occasion I calledBored at Workthe forum's "resident Moray eel" & got away with it.Actually,I think BAW was quite proud of the description!

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 19, 2014, 12:25:03 pm
content: FYIMojo-chan has decided to take his bat and ball, and all his posts, and head on home.So if you see his posts starting to all vanish, it's him deleting them, not the moderators.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2014, 01:19:39 pm
content: Not blaming anyone but I think it's a pity he made that decision. @Mojo-chan: please sleep on it for another night!

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2014, 02:45:45 pm
content: Mojo-chan complained that some of his posts disappeared with no note. Moderators says that they give warnings and leave notes.Anyone know what really happened?Deleting a post without a note or other sign is just as rude as a personal attack IMO, and one could argue, even more cowardly.(I am not getting into whether the deletion was justified or not).Edit: I don't think that MC's decision was an impulse. He asked some time ago how one can remove all his posting. This incident was probably the last straw. Anyway, I will be glad to see him here again.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 19, 2014, 03:47:33 pm
content: In case you never noticed users don't make up moderation policy. Often telling someone reasons just opens up a whole for arguments that most don't have time for.He was being unreasonable at best and I'd trust little of what he has to say.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2014, 03:52:14 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on September 19, 2014, 03:47:33 pmWere his said posts been deleted without a warning or a note?

author: marshallh
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 19, 2014, 04:14:14 pm
content: BTW on forums I've been a moderator on:Some users delete their own posts and pretend the mods did it. Usually this is clear as day to the mods.Some users do not.Some mods make mistakes, and forget to mark deletions. Usually in a long string of deletions.Some mods do not.As a mod you will never be loved and adored by everybody. That's life. I can't really find fault with the mods here, though remember nobody is infallible.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 19, 2014, 04:18:36 pm
content: Quote from: zapta on September 19, 2014, 03:52:14 pmNot by me but frankly if i had why on earth would i want to tell him why ? so that I have to argue the toss with him for weeks after ? whatever you say he is always right.

author: GeoffS
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 19, 2014, 04:24:17 pm
content: Quote from: marshallh on September 19, 2014, 04:14:14 pmI am! And I'll delete any post that says otherwise!

author: Yago
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2014, 04:31:03 pm
content: Quote from: GeoffS on September 19, 2014, 04:24:17 pmOtherwise!!!!Gotta love these threads for the swan-necking that goes on!More lurkers than a Victorian public execution.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2014, 04:31:32 pm
content: Quote from: GeoffS on September 19, 2014, 04:24:17 pm... after leaving a note of course.

author: GeoffS
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 19, 2014, 04:34:45 pm
content: What are these notes of which you speak?

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2014, 04:36:50 pm
content: The yellow post its on his monitor............I guess once a day Simon does garbage collection and dumps them all in the bin, then opens another packet of 3M clones.

author: GEuser
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2014, 04:41:16 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on September 19, 2014, 12:25:03 pmI've noticed lately that some of his advice or assisting opinion answers in some posts were very very clinical with very abrupt clinical answers , nearly verging on Teutonic .No sarcasm , picking on monkeys or anything funny at all , where's that Banana button gone >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2014, 05:18:55 pm
content: Quote from: GeoffS on September 19, 2014, 04:34:45 pm"Post was deleted by moderators". Extra points for explaining why.Currently it's like communist USSR where people just disappeared from old pictures with no trace and no explanation.I am taking about bone fide members, not first post by a spammer.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2014, 05:21:48 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on September 19, 2014, 04:18:36 pmDeleting a post has to be based on the rules set out by the maintainers of the forum. If there is room for argument then the rule is not clear.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 19, 2014, 05:38:29 pm
content: If arguing the toss with the user in question is going to be so painful then clearly the post was clearly one to remove.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2014, 05:45:36 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on September 19, 2014, 05:38:29 pmThat sounds like 'apples are bananas' to me.

author: rolycat
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2014, 06:58:58 pm
content: It would be terrific if moderators were able to take the time to provide detailed justifications for every decision they make, but given the growth of the forum it is surely unrealistic to expect this on every occasion.However, it would appear that there are a few forum members for whom no explanation will ever be satisfactory and no attempt to act impartially ever acceptable.To paraphrase Shaw, attempting to reason with such individuals is like attempting to wrestle a pig; you both get dirty and the pig likes it.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 19, 2014, 07:01:16 pm
content: Quote from: rolycat on September 19, 2014, 06:58:58 pmPerfectly put!

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2014, 07:12:44 pm
content: Quote from: rolycat on September 19, 2014, 06:58:58 pmHow much trouble is it to type (copy&paste) 'message deleted because offtopic' or 'message deleted because offensive'? Just deleting posts and leaving people in the dark why is not going to help improve the forum. If moderation is taking too much time from the current moderators then Dave needs to recruit more moderators.QuoteI'm pretty sure that is a wrong assumption. Moderators can misunderstand people's intentions as well and deleting messages without reason doesn't help to keep the peace. Like the French say 'C’est le ton qui fait la musique'. So far I have read only one side of the story so I can't judge who is right or wrong.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 19, 2014, 07:32:28 pm
content: As has been repeatedly mentioned it's all done on a case by case basis. Some people just won't be told and then complain they are being persecuted.

author: Yago
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2014, 07:38:03 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on September 19, 2014, 07:12:44 pmSeems that if only the mods and the user can delete the post there is little mystery.As long as the mods are prepared to try to explain in PM I think that is fine, endless debates on the forum only make things harder to move on for some.Not sure how the mod control panel is set up etc, a couple things I found helpful are a closed moderator section to discuss/record problems and actions, and instead of deleting posts, make them invisible to the userbase (very easy for all the mod team to see past events after moderation),

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2014, 09:49:13 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on September 19, 2014, 07:12:44 pmVery well said.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 19, 2014, 09:58:49 pm
content: Quote from: rolycat on September 19, 2014, 06:58:58 pmAll we can say is we'll do our best.And also please remember the stats on the forum, there isvery littlemoderation and deleting of posts on this forum.QuoteYes, that will always be the case unfortunately. We've seen it's a before and it's certainty we'll see it again.There is also the time it takes to debate these people. Either publicly or privately it's a waste of everyones time and in many cases you can't win to matter who much to try and appease them. It can also be rather impersonal when some of them are completely anonymous.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 19, 2014, 10:00:11 pm
content: The solution might be a forum mod that inserts a standard template message or something if a moderator deletes a message. I'll have a look to see if there is any mod like that.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2014, 10:17:54 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on September 19, 2014, 10:00:11 pmThis will be a good step forward. At least we will be able to tell between an official deletion and a bug.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 20, 2014, 02:14:26 am
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on September 20, 2014, 02:03:15 amYes. Now that you've had your say of the events, that's the last anyone wants to hear of this issue.The moderators will try to leave a message if a post is deleted, and that's usually been the case in the past.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 20, 2014, 02:25:07 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on September 20, 2014, 02:14:26 amYou may want to check this modhttp://custom.simplemachines.org/mods/index.php?mod=1007It facilitates deletion by moderators and allows to defined a canned message.Edit: welcome back Mojo Chan.

author: SgtRock
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 20, 2014, 03:11:39 am
content: Dear Mojo-Chan:--By all means. Please stick around. You are an important and helpful contributor. I once came to the defence of an unpopular fellow in a blog, when he was attacked on the basis of nationality. The gentleman I remonstrated this with, then put me on his ignore list, and after that he would then post on every other thread I was involved in, a diatribe stating that I was on his ignore list, and everyone else should put me there as well. In any case I finally posted a comment to the effect that I wished someone else would piss the guy off, so he could hound them for a change. My comments were deleted, but after that I had no trouble. So the moderators did the right thing and saved me a lot of flames. Dave, in my estimation, besides being a real engineer, and a confessed tight ass, I am willing to bet, budgets his time very carefully. Dave has a beautiful family and a full time job, and you can bet that he is completely dedicated to both. Dave really does not have an extra hour or even 20 minutes of time to deal with our problems. Dave once had to ban a fellow, that was far from all bad, because his flippant tone of voice was irritating just too many people. For the past few years the fellow has been to proud to reapply. Sad because this is the best forum he has ever been on, I am sure. I am glad you decided to stay. So let us all forgive each other and let Dave have some peace.--My neighbour just this minute brought me two identical Sony Bravia KDL-32L504 32" LED TVs. Both were made in August 2009, and both have the classic double image characteristic of tab bond issues. I have ordered some rubber bumpers, and will attempt to place them between the frame and the tabs, to hold them down, and save these "like new" HD units from the scrap yard. I will l post pictures next week in Repairs. Cheers!Why, sometimes I've believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast."The Queen from "Alice in Wonderland"Charles Lutwidge Dodgson (Lewis Carroll) 1832 - 1898Best RegardsClear Ether

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 20, 2014, 03:43:47 am
content: Quote from: zapta on September 20, 2014, 02:25:07 amOk, installed. Designed for spam, but lets see how it works for deletion of posts that are in the best interests of the forum.I'll post something and then delete it here in the next message...

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 20, 2014, 03:44:07 am
content: TEST MESSAGE FOR DELETIONHmm, I don't see the button to delete it, the mod doesn't seem to be working as expected...Oh, I can't delete my own post with thisSomeone post something I can delete!

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 20, 2014, 03:48:00 am
content: NOTE: This message has been deleted by the forum moderator EEVblog for being against the forum rules, and/or for the following reason:Well I guess I can retype what I said before

author: apelly
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 20, 2014, 03:58:57 am
content: Quote from: rolycat on September 19, 2014, 06:58:58 pmNice. Quote of the week!Edit: Just to clarify; just a handy quote. Not interested in it's context within this thread.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 20, 2014, 04:20:27 am
content: Ok, so that works. I just hit the Delete Spam button I and the mods can see, and the (customisable template) message gets posted and the name of the moderator inserted. The moderator can then chose to edit the post and add an addition reason if needed.The regular delete buttons and edit buttons are still there is a moderator wants to delete part of a message or just kill it entirely for some reason (like real spam).

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 20, 2014, 04:34:23 am
content: And it shows when it was deleted as well, my last edit was at 10 minutes 25 seconds past the hour, so it shows it was deleted 7 minutes later.Edit: also the Edit field shows who did it so you don't even need the template that says who did it

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 20, 2014, 04:45:14 am
content: Thanks Dave, looks nice, and then you just copy and paste the reason from a local file.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 20, 2014, 06:48:55 am
content: And BTW, the deleted message goes into a deleted messages part of the forum (only visible to moderators) so they can be restored if need be.That also goes for if you accidentally or deliberately deleted a post and you want it back.But the list does get purged after some time.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 20, 2014, 06:58:08 am
content: Quote from: miguelvp on September 20, 2014, 04:34:23 amBut can you go still back and edit it now?Saw that happen on another forum. Much sly dicking around, confusion, and hilarity ensued. Since everyone was having so much fun (while the forum slowly turned into a cesspit), nobody told the mods for years...

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 20, 2014, 07:24:51 am
content: Quote from: Tac Eht Xilef on September 20, 2014, 06:58:08 amWorks like a charm Dave.Classy mod for the forum.

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 20, 2014, 08:04:51 am
content: Quote from: Tac Eht Xilef on September 20, 2014, 06:58:08 amHmm, let me try that.Edit: Sure thing I can edit it, but then I guess if it was for real I could face a ban

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 20, 2014, 09:35:17 am
content: Edit after mod edit and the next one who flags it will get you canned for sure............just saying

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 20, 2014, 11:07:24 am
content: Maybe the forum software should allow to change the ownership of the post so the offending user can't re-edit the moderator edit

author: Yago
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 20, 2014, 11:36:58 am
content: Quote from: SeanB on September 20, 2014, 09:35:17 amYes, but someone will do it, and it probably will have some oddly funny angle to it."There may be trouble ahead"Irving Berlin 1936:p

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 20, 2014, 12:10:57 pm
content: Quote from: SeanB on September 20, 2014, 09:35:17 amUltimately the forum almost entirely relies upon users reporting things. The moderators can't possibly read and check every comment, not even close.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 20, 2014, 12:24:05 pm
content: I can't either, just every so often I get the spam posts first. Sometimes you try to report a spam and the post already has gone.i went away for a weekend and on return read first page, then clicked mark all read, no way to go through 25 pages of posts.....

author: Rufus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 20, 2014, 04:51:52 pm
content: I am still out of here because I refuse to speak on a platform where moderators get to choose retrospectively what I did or did not say. A point I made in my last deleted post in this thread.I am effectively banning myself because the moderators don't have the bottle to do the right thing and ban me if what I said was really so objectionable. My last post till moderation policy changes. It will be interesting to see if I still posted it tomorrow.

author: GEuser
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 20, 2014, 05:23:33 pm
content: Rufus and imo don't ban yourself , do something that will get one banned and then at least it'll not solely be your own doing!But seriously to the others out here , there are several very large forums around like one to do with computers and clocking , and another to do with whirling and pools in that frequenting and reading in those places for a year or so one could figure out that a lot of those moderators had different and several usernames that would shill and goad and bait or flat out abuse posters that exposed company's (like Telco's or a manufacturer) that rip off people or have crooked policy's or faulty goods or real slack service , those same mods also collude within their network to pick on peoples also , some mods had separate rights to personally abuse and still remain whilst the actual folks got banned , it all was so obvious that it was "obvious" that it was there and still is going on .Of course there would have been the kickbacks to the back pocket for the mods , possibly goods in payment too , but the main goal is/was to keep a eye out for a trouble maker and then in some form or fashion keep it quite and if that did not work , or try to get rid of it by making it very uncomfortable for those said peoples , all for a dollar and advertising and possibly other sinister reasons .The mods had friends of course who were just as moronic and just as "blind" as to what was really going on , real do-gooders and lawful Ha Ha Ha Ha .I saw it plenty of times happen to poor unsuspecting folks , then of course when mentioned by oneself the attacks but slowly organized attacks started , so slow it is as if one is flagged for future targeting , it was funny and I still get a laugh at watching or imagining little monkeys tapping on the keyboards , but clever sinister monkeys that can or have the ability to see how something is red (read) or worded on a screen from the other view of the viewer , Alien ....And I would still like a Banana Button in the forum software ...>>>>>>>>>>>>

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 20, 2014, 05:29:56 pm
content: Quote from: GEuser on September 20, 2014, 05:23:33 pmHeh. Not sure what a Banana Button is, buthttp://www.crazyontap.com/has a banana button: see the "I will do bananas" link on the left :-)

author: GEuser
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 20, 2014, 05:35:20 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on September 20, 2014, 05:29:56 pmTechnically I would call that a link , chain is full of links , a button is a button but thanks anyway for the thought ..

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 20, 2014, 05:42:28 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on September 20, 2014, 03:02:51 pmHmm, it does. It's not perfect either - the occasional perfectly decent post does get modded into oblivion when a bunch of like-minded people with mod points and megalomania happen to come by it at the same time... but that doesn't happen too often, and the posts are still there for the brave souls who want to browse them.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 20, 2014, 06:21:47 pm
content: I believe that Dave got the picture and will incorporate the feedback in the periodic sensitivity and diversity training of his moderators.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 20, 2014, 08:19:57 pm
content: Quote from: c4757p on September 20, 2014, 05:42:28 pmI agree. I've seen voting systems on other forums do the exact same thing. Perfectly reasonable posts get down modded due to ignorance.

author: Precipice
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2014, 11:06:24 am
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on September 21, 2014, 10:54:02 amI don't particularly like the reputation based thing. Let every post stand on its own merits, and avoid the slashdot style circlejerk of upvotes.

author: Yago
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2014, 12:15:24 pm
content: Quote from: GEuser on September 20, 2014, 05:23:33 pm

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 21, 2014, 12:16:06 pm
content: Quote from: Rufus on September 20, 2014, 04:51:52 pmSorry to hear you are going Rufus, this is the first I have heard of it, and you certainly didn't raise it with me.That being said, I do not agree with your view that it's either a free-for-all (you didn't say that, but that's effectively what the alternative is), or people get instantly banned for making one post that would otherwise have just been deleted and everything is right again.The only wost possible moderation technique in my view would be to approve every comment.Good moderation requires more than black and white rules, and instantly banning an otherwise good contributor because they might be having a bad day and say something shouldn't have once in a thousand posts, is one of the silliest ideas I've heard.The only result of that would be either the said free-for-all (because you'd be afraid to use such a blanket rule), or an empty failed forum if you apply it eqally to everyone in every situation. Heck, I'd have to banmyself!It has been demonstrably shown time and time again on this forum that the current system works, and works very well.The moderation on this forum will not be changing, it has worked just fine for 5 years now, and I see no advantage in changing it.Of course you are free to not agree, and also free to leave to leave if you so chose. And if that's the case thanks for your participation, I hope you got something of value out of it.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 21, 2014, 12:19:31 pm
content: Quote from: zapta on September 20, 2014, 06:21:47 pmI assume that was a joke?If not, then, no, nothing will be changing.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 21, 2014, 12:31:45 pm
content: Quote from: Rufus on September 20, 2014, 04:51:52 pmI went and checked on just what you had said that got deleted.And for the record, you have not had a single post deleted from this thread.QuoteYou are surprised that post got deleted?It's against the one major rule on this forum - no personal attacks. And it's provides no other information, explanation, or adds any value at all.And do you really think we should ban you instantly, someone who has made 1800+ posts, and a valued contributor to the forum, because you said that? Really?

author: GEuser
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2014, 01:11:40 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on September 21, 2014, 12:16:06 pmYou stick too it Dave, not only do you preside over a good forum but the mods also preside and do a real good job (and yes I have had comments removed and rightly so imo , its not geoffs fault he is the way he is and its not simons fault he is of English nationality either , they just cant help it)

author: GEuser
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2014, 01:14:04 pm
content: Quote from: Yago on September 21, 2014, 12:15:24 pmThat's a red round button , not a banana , now if one can link a Banana button to something like this, but not here as its getting off topic and its my fault too ...

author: Rufus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2014, 05:42:00 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on September 21, 2014, 12:31:45 pmYes I have and a response from mojo-chan was deleted. It was what prompted his subsequent claim of not "caring about political correctness and all that rubbish".QuoteQuote from: EEVblog on September 21, 2014, 12:31:45 pmIf it didn't need to be said I would not have said it. Mojo-chan first made that claim in another thread where it was debated. He obviously didn't accept the argument and repeated the claim. A claim which I find far more insulting than being called an idiot. I could not let the claim pass but saw little point in repeating the debate, you can't win an argument with mojo-chan because he is an .... well you know what I think. Others can decide for themselves which would be easier if some of his posts were not deleted.He lives in the UK where I live. In the UK the majority of electricity from renewable sources is generated because the government mandates it (look up Renewable Obligation Certificates). All electricity consumers pay the substantial extra cost of this 'green' electricity. Mojo-chan claims paying one of the many small 'eco' energy suppliers a trivial 1 or 2% premium means he is buying 100% green electrons. A ridiculous claim, he gets the same mix of electrons as anyone else on the grid. Even if you accept that notionally green and brown electrons are routed separately on the grid the only way he can get 100% green ones is by stealing them from other people that are paying for them (me) and making them take more brown ones.So Mojo-chan uses green electrons stolen from me to claim he is much greener and ecologically sound than I am - calling me an idiot would be much less insulting.Anyhow while this has blown up around mojo-chan I didn't complain about him I complained about deleting posts. Moderators exercising their power to make people un-say things, the lack of visibility when it happens and forum contributors being unable to judge moderator actions because un-said things can't be seen.IMO posts should not be deleted unless they are bad enough to justify banning the poster. If you don't like 'one strike you are out' then use a warning/infraction scheme. It looks like SMF has one built in.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 22, 2014, 01:47:48 am
content: Quote from: Rufus on September 21, 2014, 05:42:00 pmI do not see it in the deleted posts section of the forum where all deleted posts automatically go.QuoteYou broke the rules, your post got deleted based on moderator discretion who happened to read it.This will not be debated any further, it ends here. That goes for you, Mojo-chan, and anyone else who wants to debate who was right and wrong or why a comments was justified etc.QuoteWe do give warnings, and users can be put on a watch list. Warnings are still a method we chose to use at times.Let's say an otherwise excellent contributor with thousand of great posts, can't help themselves venting once of twice in a thousand posts.Which is better:- (how it currently works) Simply deleting the offending post so that no one has to read that crap. (They almost always contain no useful information, or a post is edited to remove the personal attack or whatever but leave the useful stuff). The forum continues to run smooth as silk, newbies don't get to see the vitriol, and hence don't think either the forum is crap because of that, or it's ok to write that stuff. And regulars get a hint that if you step out of line too far, your post could be removed. Serial offenders get banned as per usual, usually after a warning or two.- Three strikes and you are banned, no questions asked, no taking into account your standing or contribution, all for the occasional small outburst many can't help.- Ban the user immediatelyDoor #1 is what I chose, and it's proven to work well for 5 years now, I have no plans to change it.

author: TheBorg
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 22, 2014, 02:53:08 am
content: I feel that temporary bans work well in these kinds of situations. E.g two people get in a heated debate that spills into the forum. Both are temporarily banned, given warnings, and potentially their offending posts are edited by a mod to include the notice that the user was put in "Time-out".I definitely do not agree with the idea that peoples posts should be removed. To me that seems arbitrary and a wanton use of power from the mods. People shouldn't have to come back here be afraid that their post will be deleted.On another forum I frequent, offenders are put in a temporary ban for a while, then released back to the forum. Repeat offenders get longer time out times, and the real trolls get banned altogether.With threads, the posts always stay. Forever. For everyone to see. But if the discussion gets heated, the thread is locked. Pending moderators discretion, the thread is either unlocked, or closed forevermore.It encourages people to stay on fairly good behavior because not many people want to be the guy that kills the thread. And those who consistently break the rules are banned.I know this is Dave's forum, and I have no power to change it, but it's just a thought. Carry on...

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 22, 2014, 03:03:27 am
content: I think the deletion question is not complicated. Spam posts get deleted completely, as if they were never there. Posts from regular forum users do not get deleted outright, but the offending content is removed and replaced with a moderator message: "content deleted because it broke the rules" kind of thing.On another forum, I have occasionally got a PM from a friendly moderator saying, "please consider editing your post, because if you leave it there it is going to get moderated". That gives a chance to fix things up before other moderators come along and do their thing.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 22, 2014, 03:22:52 am
content: Quote from: TheBorg on September 22, 2014, 02:53:08 amThat's exactly what Mojo-chan was given, as have others.QuoteIt won't be if you stay on-topic and don't personally attack anyone.Those things have no place on this forum, and youriskthem being deleted.Don't post crap and it will never risk being deleted.QuoteThat is exactly how this forum works now. Temporary banning is an option that can and does get used.QuoteAs stated, there are disadvantages to leaving vitriolic or personal attack etc posts on the forum.What value do they add? The only think I can think of is so that someone has a record of whether of not someone "deserved it"? Want an example of that, look no further than Rufus's post above.No thanks, I do not want that game played on this forum.You'll notice that wedolet a lot of stuff slide, but ultimately the moderators reserve the right to edit or remove posts that contain personal attacks or other vitriolic or grossly off-topic stuff that are against the forum rules.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 22, 2014, 03:28:51 am
content: Quote from: IanB on September 22, 2014, 03:03:27 amThat is how the forum currently works. If the post contains no value except for the personal attack then it will just get deleted, because there is nothing of value left to keep.I've added a module that now gives the moderators the easy option of automatically replacing the deleted message with a note if they think that is the best option.Once again, having the forum filled with "post deleted by moderator" messages does nothing to encourage new people to join.Once again, people forgot that this is one of the most popular and biggest electronics forums out there, and has been working great for 5 years now with very few complaints about how it is run.I am not going to suddenly jump and change direction because a couple of people who have posted questionable stuff are having a whinge.Carry on.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 22, 2014, 04:36:52 am
content: Quote from: Rufus on September 21, 2014, 05:42:00 pmIn Western Australia,should I care to,I can buy gas from two different suppliers.The gas comes from the same well,travels along the same pipeline,is distributed to my home in the same pipes,& if I had gas appliances would be fed to the same stove,heater,etc.The new "competitor" claims they can sell me the gas cheaper,even though there is no way to label the molecules as to which "supplier" they come from.My wife's mobile phone is with Virgin,but uses Optus' network.The question is,if Optus can sell their service to Virgin,who resell it at a profit,why can't they offer that price to their own customers?It is obviously a widespread business practice---are Virgin customers not "stealing" service from Optus ones?PS: I know this is off-topic,I will shut up now!

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 22, 2014, 05:03:10 am
content: Quote from: vk6zgo on September 22, 2014, 04:36:52 amThis thread is not the place to carry on this discussion.

author: Rufus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 22, 2014, 06:36:48 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on September 22, 2014, 01:47:48 amThen I will repeat it as best I can from memoryQuote from: meWithin an hour Mojo-chan posted asking me to delete or edit my post saying something about because he no longer had the right to reply.An hour or so later both posts were gone.Quote from: EEVblog on September 22, 2014, 01:47:48 amI had noticed my 'idiot' post got deleted and was a bit annoyed but didn't complain or comment then days later mojo-chan started complaining about his posts being deleted and I posted the above and it was deleted and I am complaining.It is your platform and you can choose who you allow to use it but I and I think some others are not happy with you or your moderators getting to choose what the people you allow to use the platform have said. There is no visibility, no justice being seen to be done.

author: SgtRock
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 22, 2014, 07:08:26 am
content: Dear Rufus:--It seems to me that you have made you wishes known, and that unfortunately Dave's carefully considered judgement does not fall in line with your desires. I really do not see how further restatement of your position is helpful. As a general matter of argumentation, when one understands and can repeat the argument of the opponent, it it pure harassment for him to keep repeating the thesis statement. The referee was asked for a call, and a call was made. I think that when someone threatens to leave, moderation should impose a 30 day suspension. So they then can avoid further hassel for 30 days. This movie is getting really repeditive. No one really wants you to leave, so please just let it go."I could see that, if not actually disgruntled, he was far from being gruntled."P. G. Wodehouse 1881 - 1975Best RegardsClear Ether

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 22, 2014, 01:29:45 pm
content: Rufus, Mojo Chan claim about green energy cost is ridiculous and yes he keeps repeating it, but calling him idiot justifies a (visible) deletion IMO.

author: Rufus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 22, 2014, 06:31:37 pm
content: Quote from: SgtRock on September 22, 2014, 07:08:26 amDave publicly resurrected my 'idiot' post claiming it was my only deleted post. I didn't ask him to. I felt I had to publicly justify it.I resurrected my other deleted post because the forum owner not being able to see all deleted posts would seem to be a problem. I can't help it also stated my opinion. This is my 4th non-deleted post in this thread - hardly harassment.Quote from: zapta on September 22, 2014, 01:29:45 pmI don't think the quality of the forum is improved by letting people post crap without challenge. When you can't have a reasoned argument with a poster is it pretty hard not to end up criticising the poster instead of their argument.Maybe I should have just told him:-Quote from: Simon on September 17, 2014, 05:01:03 pm

author: Richard Crowley
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 22, 2014, 06:54:34 pm
content: Quote from: Rufus on September 22, 2014, 06:31:37 pmIMHO, this is a growing problem in several online technical forums. Now certainly there are forums that cater to (for one example) audiophools, and you expect to see unsupported stupidity regularly expounded as "fact". But those people are self-selecting and a world unto themselves.However, most forums (such as this one) are expected to be a source of reasonably accurate technical detail. And allowing clearly incorrect (or even questionable and unsupportable) information to stand in the archives unchallenged and uncorrected dilutes the value of the forum as a source of dependable information. While we end-users can attempt some of this policing ourselves, it is ultimately up to the management (and his official representatives) to ensure the integrity of the forum as a useful source of information.

author: rolycat
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 23, 2014, 12:01:37 am
content: Quote from: Richard Crowley on September 22, 2014, 06:54:34 pmThis is an electronics forum with a high proportion of experienced engineers and designers. Any instances where electronic technical content is incorrect or questionable are almost always quickly challenged and debunked - no intervention on the part of 'management' is required.The 'crap' to which Rufus and others object tends to have a political, nationalistic or religious component - and experienced engineers and designers are not nearly so objective when their beliefs in those areas are challenged. Regrettably the 'technical detail' is subject to manipulation by both sides and one individual's obvious truth is another's blatant lie.Expecting the moderators to make value judgements about 'clearly incorrect' information of this sort is a slippery slope which I doubt they want to venture down. The current policy of discouraging such discussions altogether and removing posts when they become unduly acrimonious is surely preferable.

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 23, 2014, 01:50:22 am
content: Yup, 7 billon opinions and none of them match.Of course out of all of those only mine is right, because it's based in facts and I'm the only one well informed and the rest don't know a thing, sometimes I feel lonesome being the only sane individual in the whole planet.Makes perfect sense to me

author: Richard Crowley
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 23, 2014, 02:43:51 am
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on September 23, 2014, 12:35:22 amThe "actual evidence" is the gap between how much "green" energy is actually produced and fed into the distribution grid vs. the amount of "green" energy being "consumed" and paid for at a premium rate. I have the evidence extraordinarily close to home of companies paying for such large amounts of "green" energy (for PR purposes) that there isn't enough "green" energy produced to even meet that ONE customer's load. Presumably, the excess premium $$$ is being ploughed back into green energy R&D. But I hope you aren't holding your breath on that one.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 23, 2014, 02:55:46 am
content: Quote from: Richard Crowley on September 23, 2014, 02:43:51 amPlease do not discuss this in this thread.

author: PA0PBZ
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2014, 06:02:17 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on October 06, 2014, 03:52:14 pmDid you actually see it in there or did it never show up?

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2014, 01:58:01 pm
content: Quote from: wilfred on October 07, 2014, 08:18:18 amI also wish we wouldn't need it.