car engine oil removal pump? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 23, 2020, 01:59:08 am
content: I am wondering what the deal is with car engine oil removal pumps.It halves the amount of time you need to go under a dangerous heavy object (since you only need to change the filter).As I understand it, the pressure in the car as its driving is greater then 60 PSI, which is greater then a good home water system. This is a pretty powerful pressure that must cause alot of turbulence and 'scrubbing' in the engine bay (as is required for proper lubrication in order to avoid heat, i.e. surface grinder coolant pressure is around 100PSI +).During idle the car pump pressure is something like 20 psi, which is still significant for something viscous as oil (or does it require higher pressure for turbulance, as reynold number suggests). I would assume this means that any significantly sized particles (non Brownian suspension) are directed towards the oil filter during the last ride prior to the oil change, and the engine warmup prior to the oil change if the oil change is conducted after the car has been sitting for a period of time.So long the oil drain tube hits the bottom of the pan, it should remove 99% of the oil in the engine, then when fresh oil it added with a new filter, any of the dangerous sized particles should be trapped in the filter immediately.Is there some kind of contingency that I am not seeing with these oil removal pumps? Is the problem people have with it the reynolds number, and slip/sheer effects of larger particles that may be suspended despite a high pressure flow? (as I understand it, this is the complicated part, with cold oil not 'mixing' well since its buttery, but hot oil behaving like water and shaking everything up)If you could run water in an engine with the same pump, how different would the mixing/turbulance of grains in the fluid be then for hot oil?Have you ever seen something stuck in a engine like that, where draining it with gravity vs sucking it up through a tube would make a difference? I have difficulty imagining anything being stuck in some kind of 'suspension' at 60 psi, if its anything like water at 60psi, which is very powerful.if someone made an engine plug you can shove a hook into to unscrew from the top, I would use it, I just don't like going under cars.

author: todd_fuller
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 23, 2020, 03:59:25 am
content: If there is anything more than very fine metallic particles in the pan, you have bigger things to worry about than oil change procedure.

author: Muttley Snickers
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 23, 2020, 09:34:26 am
content: Quote from: coppercone2 on March 23, 2020, 01:59:08 amI suspect it depends on the particular vehicle. The oil filter on my Toyota Hilux is virtually impossible to access from the top so I use my mechanics four post hoist to get to it from underneath. Whist up on the hoist there are also plenty of other things to address such as greasing the drive and tail shaft spiders and steering bump stops as well as checking the transfer and differential levels.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 23, 2020, 10:01:06 am
content: Not at all uncommon in marine engines, just saying.For autos, the drain bung is normally at the rear of the sump so a cheap set of ramps from your auto parts store is probably cheaper than a pump and then do the Muttley thing and grease some other stuff while under there.

author: Alti
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 23, 2020, 11:01:39 am
content: Perhaps in modern cars such pump makes sense to save some time.In older cars (15y+) the "oil change" is a misnomer.It is the whole procedure where you remove all engine bay covers and clips, engine underbody, FWD wheels, well covers, sometimes front bumper. Then the oil change is the least problematic stuff to do.With modern car a minor oil leak or a dirt can be tolerated but if you deal with an older car with leaks, rattling bushings, loose connectors and rust, then diagnosing even a simple fault becomes a major challenge, when hidden behind that mess. So essentially every 15kkm you need to painstakenly look for any signs of wear out, cracks, coolant leaks, pinched cabling, gearbox oil level etc. Otherwise I'll end up fixing that in the winter rain on some highway in the night.

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 23, 2020, 11:22:21 am
content: Lidl have oil removal pumps for about £13 UK () about once a year - you'd be hard pressed to get a couple of ramps for that!I've used mine for the past 3 years, it's a marvellous device, the tube goes nicely down to the bottom of the sump though the dipstick hole without difficulty and it pumps just fine. No drama at all.It's not so much the convenience of not having to undo the drain plug, it's the hassle of the oily socket spanner and potentially sleeve, collection bowl (low viscosity oil pouring out of the sump, hitting the bottom of the bowl and splashing everywhere), inevitably spilling some when you pour it into the oil can (even with a funnel). Then the cleanup of hands, tools, bowl, funnel, driveway etc.With the pump, it goes from the sump and straight into the oil can. Minimal cleanup, wipe down the tubes (which are mostly empty from it scavenging the dregs from the sump anyway). I still have my drain bowl, but these days I just use it to store the tubes in ready for next year.Most engines these days have filters that you can access from above, so no need to jack the car up at all.I might think twice if I had a diesel engine with more contaminated sump oil, but for a petrol engine these days the oil comes out looking pretty clean anyway.https://youtu.be/4gEEM2j3quI

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 23, 2020, 11:46:57 am
content: According to the following video (just over 3 minutes long), it is significantly less effective, than doing the job properly (i.e. using the oil drain plug). Because, at least on some or many/all cars. Significant amounts (e.g. 1.25 litres out of 4 litres total) of oil, is left. Which can be badly worn out and full of potentially damaging, metal particles.So if you care about your car/engine, and want the engine/car to last a long time. It doesn't seem to be the best of methods.Some people neglect their cars servicing. But if you do, don't necessarily expect to get the best life out of your car/engine and/or the best resale values.If it was a good idea/method, then surely the professional car mechanics would recommend (and even use) that method ?

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 24, 2020, 12:17:31 am
content: I am not sure if that guy ran the car for 20 minutes to warm up the oil prior to extraction?That is not great performance, I thought it got close to everything... I wonder if you got a metal tube on the hose if it would work better

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 24, 2020, 03:59:50 am
content: Quote from: coppercone2 on March 24, 2020, 12:17:31 amAt around 48 seconds in to the video. He says words to the effect, that everyone should make sure the "engine is nice and hot". When doing it.I've searched round the internet, there is a fair quantity of talk about this. There doesn't seem to be an absolute consensus, one way or the other. Some complain it doesn't remove all the oil, but others either disagree or say it doesn't matter. Others say it does matter.The problem (with the internet), is you don't know if the person is giving you poor quality advice, or is an expert on car engine lubrication.Some of the car manufacture's are rumoured to have stated in bulletins, NOT to use the suction extraction method, as it can cause damage, e.g. to the turbo charger.Some of the people who do this, claim that some cars have plastic oil sumps, which are rather susceptible to damage. If you change the oil, via removing the drain plug.As with lots of things, there is the lazy, cheap and not officially recommend way of doing things. Alternatively, there is the professional, proper, expensive and recommended way of doing things.E.g. Digikey, proper parts, versus Chinese Ebay parts. Which are usually considerably cheaper, but may be fakes/junk/weak/useless etc.It is a bit like the arguments you can have, over which engine oil to use.$3 cheapo, unknown/unbranded or shop brand, stuff.$15 reasonable oil, branded, but maybe not the best of brands.$32 liquid engineering, mega advertised, well known brand, suppose to be really good, oil.We could argue, until the virus outbreak is over.....As a rule of thumb, 'There is no such thing as a free lunch'.Cheap/Lazy/quick/easy/unconventional/unrecommended = bad way of doing things. Which ends up biting you on the foot, at some later time. When your engine explodes, while trying to escape the latest Zombie Apocalypse.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 24, 2020, 04:10:59 am
content: well, its a bit different because this is the 'safe' way to do things, especially if you can remove the filter from the top.. mainly safe from occular damage, but possibly from being smushed. Makes it especially appealing to use on an older car with rust that falls off the bottom.. and possibly more if you need to grind/drill out a broken screw or something.the proxxon pump costs 80$ too, its not exactly cheap either.sounds like its too risky to use the pump though

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 24, 2020, 04:29:33 am
content: Quote from: coppercone2 on March 24, 2020, 04:10:59 amThere are a lot of factors.If the car cost $299,999.99, is brand new, you drive 20,000 miles per year and want to keep the car for 20+ years. You want the best petrol/gas mileage possible. It goes to the main dealer for all work on the car. Maybe get the oil properly drained, each service.On the other hand,If you only paid $1 for the car, only drive 0.01 miles per year, it is falling to pieces, you are a totally lazy car owner, you don't care how smoothly the car engine silently moves the car along, most of the car, already isn't working, it is more than 20 years old, and the most valuable thing about the car, is the $0.10 cents worth of fuel, still in the tank. Then maybe the oil sucker, might be worth considering.Or get an electric car, which never needs an oil change.EDIT:I guess, I'm just stating my opinion, others will have other ideas.There are many examples in life of similar opinions.Instant Coffee vs Coffee makers$1 LED bulbs vs $15 Good branded ones

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 24, 2020, 04:43:54 am
content: the proper tool is 80$ vs like nothing for the wrench, and you need to own the ramps anyway, but I see your point.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 24, 2020, 04:51:43 am
content: Quote from: coppercone2 on March 24, 2020, 04:43:54 amIf you consider the next 10 oil services.10 x $400 Main dealer, full scheduled servicing, including oil changes = $4,000 approx$80 Oil sucking Machine, used x10 times to oil change service at home = $80 approxSo, although $80 may sound a lot, it can be used lots of times and avoids paying for proper garage servicing.There are oil change only places, at a lot less than $400, you can use.But you're right, $80 is NOT cheap.EDIT:But getting a car properly serviced is best. It may save future repair bills ('stitch in time, saves nine'), Should be safer, e.g. they notice your brakes need changing. The car usually runs better, as a result and lasts longer. Saving you money on replacing the car.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 24, 2020, 05:38:32 am
content: those things are done privately , the savings are huge, but it gets mega old

author: rrinker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 24, 2020, 02:37:03 pm
content: I know plenty of people who use the extractors. They work very well. I had a small hand operated one, which I thought would make things easy because the oil filter was near the front of the car - well, almost but not QUITE reachable, because there was a big chunk of plastic that had to be unscrewed to reach it. Overall it would have been easier to do it with ramps.After that, I took to again driving cars with top mounted oil filters (cartridge type). I was all set to get a better (and bigger - the old pump I had wouldn't hold the volume of oil my 'new' car takes). One problem - there's no longer a dipstick to use with the extraction pump! So even though the filter sits right on top and is super easy to access, draining the oil requires putting the car on ramps and undoing the drain plug underneath.Since I decided I didn't want to carry a dirty pan full of used oil (screw the cap on, put the drain plug in, it STILL can leak, plus the whole thing is a dirty mess) in my nice car to take it to the nearest recycle location, despite having a huge garage that even has heat - I just pay someone to do the oil changes now.

author: langwadt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 24, 2020, 03:16:16 pm
content: Quote from: MK14 on March 23, 2020, 11:46:57 amon some cars it is the standard procedure

author: unknownparticle
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 24, 2020, 03:59:54 pm
content: Having changed the oil myself on my vehicles for the past 30 years or more, I have some experience to call on here. The big factor in the past for me was having workshop facilites, including a lift ramp. So, no issues there excepting a few vehicles with stupid oil filter location. If I had to choose between workshop lift assisted oil changes and an extraction pump, it would be the former, because if you have that facility it would be illogical not to use it.However, recently, due to a change in circumstances, I no longer have that facility, and I needed to change the oil on my Mazda 6 Diesel, on a driveway outside. The DIY ramps I have were too high to use as the Mazda has restricted ground clearance. Jacking each side in turn on to stands was going to be a pain and time consuming. So, already knowing about electric extraction pumps I decided to buy one and give it a try. Went on Amazon, found a unit that had good reviews took delivery. Cut to the chase, it worked well apart from one issue. The semi rigid nylon tube that goes into the dipstick tube and thus into the sump, becomes VERY pliable at full engine oil working temp. So, the first attempt only extracted a small amount of oil due to the tube curling up in the sump, therefore not being a the actual bottom of the sump. So I gauged the distance the tube needed to reach the bottom of the sump with some wire and then measured the tube into the sump. Then I measured the oil extracted to ensure that the full amount had been removed. And all was well.That first time took longer due to the above issue, but next time I reckon the whole job would take about 10 mins max, from start to finish including pouring in the new oil.Things that are not possibe with this method are examining the magnetic drain plug for metal particles, and general inspection of the underside of the engine for leaks etc.I believe there are some cars that do not even have a drain plug for engine oil and an oil extractor is the workshop method anyway.As for the quality of the available extractors, most of them will be of Chinese origin and low priced so you get what you pay for. The one I bought is cheap and cheerful and cost about £20. Even if it only does 3 or 4 oil changes then it's cost is inconsequential. I tried to find a higher quality unit but non seemed available. Just to note, mine is a 12 volt electric type and fits in the palm of your hand'ish.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 24, 2020, 06:10:40 pm
content: Quote from: rrinker on March 24, 2020, 02:37:03 pmSame here. I changed the oil of my car myself once. I learned quickly that it is much more convenient to take it to a universal garage and let them do it with the right equipment. Oil is messy. Usually together with the annual (government mandated) check.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 24, 2020, 07:40:19 pm
content: Quote from: langwadt on March 24, 2020, 03:16:16 pmIf the car manufacturer recommends/endorses it, then I'm fine with it. On those particular vehicles.

author: Ground_Loop
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 25, 2020, 10:13:20 pm
content: Quote from: MK14 on March 23, 2020, 11:46:57 amI have four cars each with 150,000 - 200,000 miles and have been changing oil with a Mityvac for years. None blow a trace of smoke and internals are pristine. in fact, my understanding is that the Mercedes dealerships use pumps for oil changes as well. I have two mercedes (one an AMG) and getting the bottom panels off to access the drain plug is beyond aggravating.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 26, 2020, 01:14:59 am
content: Quote from: Ground_Loop on March 25, 2020, 10:13:20 pmInteresting.I'm somewhat amazed that official car dealerships would use such methods. But have to admit, my opinion is seeming to be wrong about it. I am gradually warming up to the pump extraction method.Scotty Kilmer (an apparently highly experiences and trustworthy, car mechanic who does lots of car repair/maintenance/reviews youtube videos), may provide an answer to this question. He mentions lots of bad practices as regards car maintenance, and good ones, to use.I tried to find a youtube video with Scotty Kilmer's opinion, on these suction oil pumps, but despite much searching/watching, couldn't find any.But, I have found another forum like thing, where he very briefly seems to say they are ok.https://automaven.io/ontheroadwithscotty/car-questions-and-answers/scotty-what-do-you-think-of-a-manual-vacuum-pump-like-the-mityvac-7201-for-changing-engine-oil---5rgIx9fUSR4Shw82H75AQuoteAlso, another option, is to change the oil drain plug. For a new/reliable/quality valve system, making it easier and cleaner. See here:

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 26, 2020, 12:30:15 pm
content: Yes, I think thinks have changed markedly over the years (decades?), particularly with regard to the oils. With annual oil changes and synthetic oil (I never skimp on oil), you simply don't get the build-up of crap in the bottom of the sump that you used to. I've sometimes looked at it coming up the tube and though 'did youreallyneed changing?'.As long as the amount that comes out corresponds to the specified capacity (easy to check as most plastic oil cans have a scale on the side) I think it's a pretty safe procedure, and as I mentioned previously, way less messy.One side benefit, you tend to be able to get the oil out when it's rather hotter than I would ever risk, scrabbling underneath, holding in those last few turns of the drain plug by hand. Tubing permitting of course. I've found the Lidl electric one fine, not the fastest pump on the block, but I'm really not interested in speed when transferring hot oil, in fact the slower you do it, the more it scavenges as the level drops in the sump.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 26, 2020, 04:12:37 pm
content: Quote from: Gyro on March 26, 2020, 12:30:15 pmThat makes a lot of sense.It can be very messy changing the oil, using the drain plug. I wouldn't like crawling under the car, or safely lifting it up and putting axle clamps on or using wheel ramps.The modern day trend of putting plastic covers all over the place, doesn't usually make servicing a car any easier.I can see the huge attractions (from yours and other posts), of using the extraction pump methods. Also, electric pump versions, sound much more appealing to me, as well.As soon as it's electric, it saves one so much effort, which is probably preferable to speed. As you can just keep an eye on it and relax or do other servicing activities.If lots of people use that method, then car manufactures, can design cars, to have dipsticks, which allow the full amount of oil to be extracted. Which could already be the case, anyway (I don't know).I wonder, if fuel cars were to continue (some countries talk of all electric cars being mandatory, in the somewhat distant future, e.g. UK/2035). If in later decades, such as 2100. Cars would either never need servicing (i.e. be ready for 200,000 miles without any maintenance) and/or be able to automatically service themselves, without any external assistance. Except possibly raw materials.E.g. We use to have Ignition contact points, Chokes (controls), Bulbs that needed replacing (Tungsten filament) rather than increasingly common place LEDs (which can still need replacing, eventually), short life spark plugs (something like 10K/12K miles life, rather than 60K miles or whatever it is these days). Etc Etc.I.e. Some of the things that needed regular replacement. Either are not needed anymore (e.g. points), or last considerably longer.I vaguely remember (Cadillac ?), had a 100K mile service interval car, at one time.

author: langwadt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 26, 2020, 07:11:15 pm
content: Quote from: MK14 on March 26, 2020, 04:12:37 pmhttps://youtu.be/RakLAZIRgwU

author: Andrew LB
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 27, 2020, 07:55:13 am
content: Quote from: todd_fuller on March 23, 2020, 03:59:25 amExactly. The fine particles that are part of normal engine wear are either too fine to catch in the filter or will be caught in the filter. Anything heavy enough to stay at the bottom of the sump will likely stay there. Even if you drain from the plug in the oil pan, it likely wont remove more than extracting from above.I'm not sure about domestic American, but Modern European cars like Audi, BMW, etc are designed to have the oil extracted from above and from my experience its very effective. Changing the oil from below on my Audi S4 is a nightmare due to the under panels. And besides, the oil filter is right on top of the engine anyways.Just make sure to keep a close eye on how many liters of oil you extract so you don't risk over-filling. Too much oil can be far more destructive than being a quart or so shy.I own a mityvac or whatever they're called and never use it. I bought one of those super cheap 12v powered pumps off amazon like thishttps://amzn.to/2UCtma9and it works great. Just insert tube when oil is warm but not hot, connect to battery, and go do something for 10 minutes or so.

author: rrinker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2020, 05:10:17 pm
content: See, that's my problem, I have one of the in between BMWs - no dipstick, so no way to extract the oil from the top. Maybe the newest ones have at least a port in the top for a pump.But based on the miles I drive each year, I usually only need an oil change every other year anyway. Full synthetic doesn't degrade just sitting there, so there's no point changing it more often if there are few miles on it. I wouldn't go to the dealer other than warranty things, my local German car specialist is quite reasonable on charges so I don't mind paying him to take care of it.

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2020, 08:24:24 pm
content: Only a complete Dipstick would design an engine without a dipstick!