IP camera solution - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: akis
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2019, 01:41:38 pm
content: I am looking for a WiFi camera that:1) It will connect to my home network just like my WiFi/ethernet home printers2) I will be able to connect to it and send it commands3) It will send the video feeds to a server of my choice, in my case, inside the same network - I will have a PC running a "camera server" app.4) I will be able to connect to this server and download videos etc5) It will not be infested with backdoors etc, it will not try to access the internet or send messages to any remote server which I have not explicitly set upIf anyone knows whether such a camera exists I would be grateful.

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2019, 02:54:56 pm
content: Requirement #5 could be a problem. Based on the tons of security issues with IP cams found the last few years it's better to put IP cams into a separate network. Consider them semi-compromised and don't expect that the manufacturer will provide updates. For better security and long term updates you might want to consider a professional IP cam, but it's about 5 to 10 times more expensive. Also beware of the apps of cheap cams. There are some nice open source solutions I'd use instead. And don't forget to set up a VPN for remote access.

author: helius
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2019, 03:04:30 pm
content: One way around some of the security issues is by combining a dumb, non-IP security camera with a wireless flash card (Toshiba FlashAir). The result is more fully configurable and will not come with built-in malware.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2019, 05:03:40 pm
content: Build your own based on a Raspberry Pi or even an ESP32, depending on your requirements.

author: stevelup
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2019, 05:09:00 pm
content: What you are describing is basically every professional IP camera.Suggest you look at Hikvision. If the camera is for internal use, the Ubiquiti G3 Flex is compact and attractive.-edit- missed the WiFi requirement which effectively precludes any pro kit. But you still need to get power to any camera unless you're going to mess around with batteries. So you may as well just go wired.

author: Dielectric
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2019, 07:18:39 pm
content: I had pretty good luck using MotionEyeOS with a Pi-Zero W and the RPi camera module. Lots of cool features, it's actually a very thoughtful creation. The hard part is creating a good outdoor enclosure, if you need that. I just stuck mine to the inside of the house windows instead.

author: MyHeadHz
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2019, 05:43:43 am
content: Quote from: Dielectric on July 07, 2019, 07:18:39 pmI've used MotionEyeOS with a raspberry pi and an off-the-shelf webcam (most all of them work right out of the box with the pi) that I had around. It meets all the requirements above and is quite stable and configurable. The GUI is easy to use and it handled 1080P over the network flawlessly as well. It seems perfect for this project.edit: I used a pi 3 with built-in wifi. Earlier models need an external wifi adapter, so keep that in mind.

author: akis
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2019, 06:35:04 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on July 08, 2019, 06:14:06 amHow so? Amazon is full of cameras that connect to some unknown server, in some unknown country and store your photos and videos. I presume there would be a configuration file that tells the camera which server to connect to, which port etc, but asking on Amazon, even the sellers of these cameras do not think you can point them to a server of your choice.

author: paulca
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2019, 07:02:52 am
content: I spotted this last night. For £10 it might be worth trying. There are youtube test/review videos, but I haven't watched them.https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ESP32-CAM-WIFI-Bluetooth-Development-Board-5V-ESP32-Module-With-OV2640-Camera/352634571778?hash=item521aa88c02:g:VDoAAOSw7SRcpVhn

author: akis
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2019, 07:31:55 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on July 08, 2019, 06:49:37 am"many users" only have a mobile phone, not even a laptop, let alone be capable of hosting their own servers. But I am not "many users" and I could easily setup a local PC to record video, or setup a remote server in one of my other houses, or some similar combination.We all have tons of data stored outside our control, and typically this is Google, Yahoo, Apple etc - but not some guy running servers from his mother's basement ... This was my "stupid assumption"...

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2019, 09:08:21 pm
content: Quote from: akis on July 07, 2019, 01:41:38 pmA topic I have some expertise in. You should not be thinking in terms of a "camera" but in terms of designing the system as a whole.>> 1) It will connect to my home network just like my WiFi/ethernet home printersAll IP cameras will connect to your home network but if the purpose is security then wifi is a bad choice because it is trivially easy to disrupt.>> 2) I will be able to connect to it and send it commandsObviously, that is the purpose of having it on the network.>> 3) It will send the video feeds to a server of my choice, in my case, inside the same network - I will have a PC running a "camera server" app.Not really necessary or a good idea. That is the purpose and function of anNVR (Network Video Recorder)which records and manages all this. It generates the "quadrant video" etc. It is a small box, like a router, more stable than a computer, uses much less energy, etc. Also note that hard disks for NVRs are not regular computer hard disks but areoptimized for continuous recording.4) I will be able to connect to this server and download videos etc.Yes, that is what the NVR does. In my case I have four cameras and it stores about two months of video before it starts over-writing.5) It will not be infested with backdoors etc, it will not try to access the internet or send messages to any remote server which I have not explicitly set upDifficult to impossible. You can set up your security cams on a LAN not connected to the Internet but then you will not have access from the Internet, only from LAN. If you want to connect from the internet the cameras need to connect and log in to servers which facilitate the connection. In other words, my client connects to the server and asks if camera with ID XXXXX is online, then the server responds with the IP and other parameters so a direct connection can be established. Given this it would be difficult to control any other leaks from the cameras.Most cameras are full of holes and vulnerabilities. I just live with it but sometimes cameras have been infected and made BOTs. It is not an easy issue to resolve. Several workarounds can be devised but it can get complicated.My cams are made by Xiongmai and are very definitely compromised, infected and worthless but I use them anyway. I know they have default master passwords and it is easy to log into them. There are many videos in Youtube of people hacking cameras and scaring homeowners.My cameras are all showing the outside of the house and I don't really care if anybody can see what's going on. I guess it would be worse if they were compromised as BOTs.https://www.pcworld.com/article/3134039/chinese-firm-admits-its-hacked-products-were-behind-fridays-massive-ddos-attack.htmlAnother issue is what type of camera to choose for each location. There are many different features.I bought all my cameras, NVR, etc. from ebay and it cost me very little.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2019, 09:28:05 pm
content: Quote from: soldar on July 10, 2019, 09:08:21 pmIncorrect, you just need PiVPN or some other VPN server for secure remote access. The only cloud service you need is dynamic DNS if you have a dynamic IP.

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2019, 09:33:01 pm
content: Quote from: NiHaoMike on July 10, 2019, 09:28:05 pmWell, yes, of course. I am talking about out-of-the-box solutions. Anyone knowledgeable can set up a VPN to the home LAN. My guess is such a person is not asking for this kind of advice here. But yes, you can VPN home and then you are local on the LAN. And you need to take extreme measures to block the cameras from the Internet. Believe me, they try very hard. They have, among other things, a long list of IPs that would need to be blocked.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2019, 09:54:00 pm
content: PiVPN is about as easy to set up as VPN servers get.

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2019, 10:06:41 pm
content: Quote from: NiHaoMike on July 10, 2019, 09:54:00 pmI am not disputing that. The question is not if you can VPN into your LAN. The question is can you be 100% certain the cameras will not find a way out to the Internet. Unless you are 100% certain then I would not place a camera in the bedroom. But, hey, if others want to do it I am fine with that. Maybe they will see their wives in Youtube being consoled by ... whoever replaced the milkman in these endeavors.More things. In theory there are standards, likeONVIFwhich would make devices interoperable but my experience is that you often run into snags anyway.There re many factors and features in choosing cameras: outdoor or indoor (even then I have indoor cameras placed outside, under the eaves, well protected). With/without IR illumination. Resolution, number of streams, compression (H264), auto, IR-Cut filter, auto iris. Many more if you want to get really technical.You can also get local storage in memory card but I don't use that as it goes direct to the video recorder.Here is a photo. You can see the Hard Disk and the tiny board. IIRC the connectors are VGA video out, USB (mouse), Ethernet and power. I seem to remember it may have eSATA for an external disk.

author: akis
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2019, 10:14:26 pm
content: I am not settled on the cameras yet, still trying to decide what to buy. I have ordered two Reolinks C2 Pro, with Amazon Prime, should have been with me today, but Amazon decided to use Royal Mail (why? why? why?) and they have not arrived. I already filed a return and will not accept them if they arrive tomorrow. Have also bought a pair of significantly cheaper ieGeek 1080p home cameras, they should be here tomorrow, and if they too try to talk to China I will send them back.Talking about security, I am not expecting anyone to hack into my wifi. I am more worried that the cameras are hardcoded to access remote servers, legitimately so, as they are trying to enable remote viewing and control for the average user. I am also worried that allowing them to communicate with some unknown remote server might also allow outsiders to hack in. Finally in terms of network usage, I am imagining that keeping the video feeds locally is better than transmitting everything to China, in order for me to have remote access.My idea then is a bunch of cameras on the Wifi talking to a local NVR or laptop running some server, and a hole in the router to allow me to connect remotely to the laptop. The router will stop the cameras from reaching outside, as the cameras only ever need to talk to the NVR/laptop.I m not an expert on programming the router, past opening a hole or two (port forwarding), but am sure it is possible with most home routers these days. Maybe even have a separate LAN just for the cameras / and a multihomed laptop.In terms of NVR I have done some casual research, I was thinking of using SSDs rather than spinning disks, like the MP510 1TB. Can I leave the laptop running for a year unattended? Maybe not easy as Windows pushes updates and crashes the machine all the time, I will need to experiment with this. And I would need a means to recycle the laptop remotely or on an external timer, eg once every 4 hours.

author: Red Squirrel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2019, 10:27:43 pm
content: If you go Wifi, you need power for it anyway. POE makes more sense that way the power comes from a central UPS backed up area where the switch and network stuff is and you don't have to worry about using up wifi bandwidth. I would do POE ethernet cameras, and put them on a separate vlan. Make sure that vlan can't connect to the internet, and can only connect to the video server. In fact depending how the video server works you probably don't even need that, the video server just needs to be able to access the cameras and not the other way around. So basically you have a camera vlan, where inbound and outbound traffic is blocked, and only the video server is allowed to connect to it. Of course you can make other rules as you please depending on your needs. Pfsense and a managed switch makes a pretty solid base for a home network and would allow all of this.If you have any outdoor cameras this also protects you in case someone takes one down and tries to connect something to the port. They WILL have access to all the other cameras, but not the rest of the network. There may be some port security stuff you can do at the switch to mitigate that risk more.Also be careful ordering from Amazon, there are lot of fakes. I heard Hickvision cameras are great, but there seems to be an odd black market for fake ones so if you buy one you don't know what you're really getting, it might not be genuine and it will be filled with backdoors. Of course the vlan and proper firewalling stuff should protect you from this anyway.Been toying with adding some around my house myself as there's tons of theft in my city now, just not sure what to go for the recording software. Not much for Linux. Tried zoneminder years back but it was crappy and had lot of issues, it might be better now though.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2019, 10:46:36 pm
content: Quote from: soldar on July 10, 2019, 10:06:41 pmMake your own cameras using Raspberry Pi or ESP32 so you can trust them.I wonder how difficult it would be to hack the "untrustworthy" cameras to send a completely unrelated video stream to the spy servers, basically wasting their resources.

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2019, 10:56:58 pm
content: Quote from: Red Squirrel on July 10, 2019, 10:27:43 pmYes, I have been searching for recording software for Linux and have not found anything I really like. Another issue is that I have many different cameras and what works for one does not work for another. I am just playing around with cameras which are not in use. Some cameras will work with one software but not with another. In Linux I have found "Onvif Device Tool" works pretty well for viewing, connecting, etc. but it does not record. It even connects to my cameras without knowing the password.For actual CCTV surveillance I have the video recorder and it works great. It is totally independent of any computer so no problems crashing. It is self-contained and will run for months or years with no crashes and minimal consumption. Using a computer for this makes no sense unless you have very specific reason to do so. Also, the video recorder I have hidden out of the way so, even if they break into the house it will probably not be discovered. Using a computer might mean they will steal it.I have had many break in attempts and have a lot of footage. Unfortunately the police here have no interest in resolving anything and have no interest in the video recordings.Another thing I have learned is that if I arrive at my second home after two weeks and something happened it is almost impossible to review four weeks of video. It is easy though to place objects or "flags" in such way they would be disturbed so I can go in and check the recording at day 7, then day 10, then day 9, etc. so it is easy to narrow down the moment and see the actual video.

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2019, 11:10:56 pm
content: Quote from: NiHaoMike on July 10, 2019, 10:46:36 pmThe OP can do that if they feel like it. Most people want to set up a system working straight out of the box, not spend countless hours designing and building their own home brew.Quote from: NiHaoMike on July 10, 2019, 10:46:36 pmI guess it could be possible but I don't think it is practical and does not make much sense anyway.And the danger is not only that they may see your video but that they control the embedded system and convert it into a BOT in their BOTNET.

author: Red Squirrel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2019, 11:34:51 pm
content: Actually a dedicated recorder box is an option too, I think some of them do handle IP cameras. Not sure if you are stuck using only the cameras designed for it though, or if they are universal. You also want to make sure it's easy to upgrade the drive and easy to retrieve the data. Nothing worse than a black box you can't do anything with, like DVRs for TV.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2019, 11:50:19 pm
content: Quote from: soldar on July 10, 2019, 11:10:56 pmThe nice thing about open source is that someone who likes to tinker with stuff does most of the hard work.Really, I think anyone who actually wants a home network they can trust should know how to configure software and other basic IT knowledge.

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2019, 11:51:18 pm
content: Quote from: Red Squirrel on July 10, 2019, 11:34:51 pmOf course they do! That is what they are designed and built for! I have had and used several in the last few years. And, again, a normal computer HDD is not optimized for video surveillance recording.Quote from: Red Squirrel on July 10, 2019, 11:34:51 pmI have bought a lot of stuff here and there. As long as it says ONVIF they should be inter-operable. But be ready to spend a lot of time configuring everything. Not only the computer/network aspects but also camera settings. I had to do a lot of testing to get things right. The camera pointing at the street has no use for IR and just the street lighting is better. One in the back yard needs IR but the camera illuminator is not enough so I added a couple more. Angles, locations, protection from the weather... It has kept me busy for hours. Then things fail. I have just finished troubleshooting a camera that was failing intermittently. It was impossible to pinpoint the cause and this went on for weeks. It would just stop working at times. I changed the PSU, the ethernet cable... still would fail once in a while. I finally determined it was the camera's power connector. The central pin was too thin and sometimes would make bad contact. I finally resolved it by replacing the PSU barrel connector. Instead of using one with a full cylindrical inner part I used one of the type that has only two wires like a hairpin. That made better contact.If my experience is indicative you will be spending time installing, improving and repairing your system.

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2019, 12:28:05 am
content: I bought many more cameras than I needed so I could get a chance to play around and test them.Besides the real working installation I have several of these that I play around with:https://www.ebay.com/itm/192940681528https://www.ebay.com/itm/291872810159https://www.ebay.com/itm/271909585754https://www.ebay.com/itm/233229176873https://www.ebay.com/itm/312282526695https://www.ebay.com/itm/153040848750All support ONVIF.And, depending on what you want to do, maybe you could use regular USB webcams.

author: MyHeadHz
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2019, 01:35:18 am
content: Quote from: NiHaoMike on July 10, 2019, 09:28:05 pmThere are several ways to set it up, and there is never any reason to use any cloud services. In your scenario you will own the client and server so there would be no point. Plus, the thread author specifically wouldn't want to do that anyway (#5).Anyway, another option would be to SSH into whatever device you make, if you are comfortable with that. That would be the most secure option.Still, though, I think a regular USB webcam and raspberry pi would be a perfect solution for your project. You would have the most control over the device, and you could always re-purpose it if you ever need/want to.

author: lunar
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2019, 04:08:35 am
content: Having experience in this field, I will give my two cents. Others have already touched on some points here.First off, WIFI and cameras generally don't mix. This is not recommended. You can do it, but you shouldn't. Standard 802.3 POE is ideal. Be careful, some devices don't follow the standard and run passive POE (12 or 24 volts). Same goes for ONVIF. If you want to avoid vendor lock-in you should get cameras that A) Use ONVIF and / or B) publish the camera stream RTSP paths in the user manual. This means no Nest cameras that will be unusable in 5-10 years.1) What I do is have the camera recording server on its own private LAN, but it also has access to the main LAN. Cameras are put in the private LAN that has no internet access. This obviates the need for #5. Assume all small embedded computers (cameras in this case) are backdoored. Do not give them internet access. Even if they aren't (backdoored), they aren't upgradeable, and are vulnerable to being exploited.2) It is accessible on the LAN. See #1. Setup a VPN if you need remote access.3/4) I personally use Zoneminder but there are other options. I would recommend you also look into Kerberos.io, iSpy, and Bluecherry DVR (not necessarily in that order). For 1 or 2 cameras, you can use an RPI. For more cameras, you will want an x86 motherboard. For large deployments, a modern x86 server motherboard.I don't recommend building your own camera. Most people in home security want a tool, not a project. This is especially relevant if it is an outdoor camera.A question like this is best asked on a CCTV forum.GNU\Linux experience helps in a project like this, as you will have a better understanding of the IT infrastructure / requirements.

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2019, 07:46:51 am
content: I had a quick look atZoneminder(Linux only) and the installation seems more complicated than I am willing to go. My Linux Mint system could not install it without much trouble. Maybe I will try again some other day. Still, it does not inspire much confidence that the PPA ismaintained by single guyout of his kitchen.Onvif Device Tool(Linux only) works very well for me in that it will discover Onvif devices connected to the network and will log in and give you all sorts of info. It manages to log into my cameras and get the video stream even though I have not given it the camera password. I guess the cameras have backdoor passwords. This is mainly a diagnostic tool and does not record. It is the best tool I have for setting things up.Different programs seem to encounter different problems. I have successfully used iSpy (Windows) in the past and I found it useful but right now I cannot get it to connect to my test camera even when I give it the IP address and all the parameters. Something is wrong. A good thing about iSpy is that it can use local USB webcams as well as IP cameras.BTW, I tried installingthis Firefox add-onto view the camera directly in the browser but it will not work for me. I would be interested if someone can help me get it to work,For 24/7 use I recommend a stand-alone network video recorder. It is more stable, more independent and uses much less power. I do not want to have the NVR running on a computer that I am also using for other things.I have had many people ask me about surveillance cameras in real life. Many only have the vaguest of ideas of what they want and as soon as I ask them a few questions they drop the whole thing. You are not just "buying a camera"; you need to know what you want first. Do you want to monitor and record the outside of your house? Or the bedroom and living room? Do you need or want audio? What are the lighting conditions?It is one thing if you just want to be able to see the front yard from your computer in the back of the house while you are working. No real security so you can set it up with wifi as it does not matter really if it loses the connection now and then.A very different situation is if you want reliable 24/7 monitoring and recording of a camera.And what turns most people back is telling them they need to install power and Ethernet at each camera location. I have wifi cameras which I can use for tests to best locate cameras but any real security system should not use wifi.

author: akis
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2019, 08:36:22 am
content: Thanks for taking the effort to post some great comments and ideas. WiFi easily hacked. External camera taken down to gain entry to network. Sounds like a scene from Mission Impossible.As this system is intended for my usually vacated summer house, I will not install ethernet cabling. Instead I will place a few cameras here and there, on table tops, powered by the nearest mains socket.For the NVR/laptop I am trying to understand why not use SSDs instead of special spinning disks for continuous writing.

author: Jeroen3
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2019, 09:33:28 am
content: I can recommend you Dahua camera's. They are remarkably well made for their price and origin. They even have some fancy dynamic contrast and HDR-like features that increase visibility in shots where there is dark and light, or bright sunlight.I've installed these cheap additional camera's at my parents, one Dahua dome camera for the driveway with POE, and a wireless bullet camera for the backyard.DH-IPC-HDBW1320EP-028BDH-IPC-HFW1235SP-W-028BBoth try not to access the internet by themselves. Any backdoors I am not aware, but it is your duty to make sure the internet can't reach them over your WiFi.There are a foscam I didn't pick, but see for yourself in the attachment. Guess the foscam. This is about 60 days uptime.Wireless really isn't intended for this. You needconstant4 Mbit throughput for one good 10 fps 3 megapixel camera.If you do not have better than -65 dbBm, the 802.11 rate goes down and the airtime goes up. Thisreallyloads your WiFi, and you should use a separate radio. Or you have to reduce video quality, that makes the entire purpose of the camera questionable.You should also use a separate SSID/WPA so any normal WiFi clients cannot intentionally malform the camera packets.Quote from: soldar on July 11, 2019, 07:46:51 amYou still need a VM with an old version of Internet Explorer (that never updates) to configure/view basically any cheap IP camera, due to plugins or Java, but when you see that Axis asks for their stuff. You will accept that.

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2019, 10:04:20 am
content: Quote from: Jeroen3 on July 11, 2019, 09:33:28 amWell, it is a Linux machine so no IE there. I do not see how or why IE would be needed to view what is basically a standard video stream.I found another way of doing it because, in Linux, Mint Media Player and VLC media player will both play the streaming video directly. Any of them will open the camera video stream with the correct parameters in the address:Code:rtsp://192.168.42.143:554/user=admin_password=neZ3wSSM_channel=1_stream=0.sdp?real_streamThat allows me to have a real time video window on the desktop although it will not record.

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2019, 10:32:48 am
content: Quote from: akis on July 11, 2019, 08:36:22 amIf the house is empty it would make more sense to just lay some ethernet cable and collect it away when you return. As has been said, wifi might not be able to carry the load and is extremely easy to disrupt. It would take anyone less than a minute to stand outside a house and cripple all wifi communications.I am not quite sure of your aim. You want to record how many months and how many cameras?Your aim is just to have a recording of the break-in? Not to prevent it? Because you might find that the first thing they steal is the cameras and the computer or recorder.You can get cameras that record in their own built-in memory card.Indoors with blinds closed you could have a motion detection alarm but outside or with open windows that will not work.If you are looking to be notified in case of a break-in I would suggest you use a PIR motion detector that sends you a notification over the internet. Much simpler, much cheaper, much more reliable.Quote from: akis on July 11, 2019, 08:36:22 amI do not see where anybody said not to use SSD. The thing with using a computer is that the chances of it crashing or hanging are much greater than a dedicated recorder. In case of power out a recorder will start up with no problem. You can get a computer to do that but a dedicated recorder is always going to work better and will probably pay for itself just in energy savings.

author: akis
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2019, 07:36:24 pm
content: ieGeek cameras arrived today.https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B07JZCYKVCNow to make them work, connected them to the Ethernet and they got an IP address from the router.I downloaded an NVR Windows server, "iSpy". It claims it can connect to most cameras on the market. Well, it cannot connect to the ieGeeks... No auto-detection, nothing.I downloaded ONVIF Device Manager - it immediately saw my camera and connected to it. I got a live feed and can pan/tilt! I also installed VLC, again, no issues at all "seeing" the camera. it seems "iSpy" is being retarded.So onwards for the next Windows NVR server...

author: akis
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2019, 07:38:01 pm
content: " The thing with using a computer is that the chances of it crashing or hanging are much greater than a dedicated recorder. "Yes but before I buy any more hardware I would like to experiment a bit first, to learn what it is that I need.

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2019, 08:10:14 pm
content: Quote from: akis on July 11, 2019, 07:36:24 pmYou know, I could swear it worked well for me in the past but now I am running into the same problems you are. I'll see if I can find some notes.Quote from: akis on July 11, 2019, 07:38:01 pmVery good idea.

author: Red Squirrel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2019, 08:56:58 pm
content: Nothing wrong with using a computer but make sure it's dedicated, ex: a server in a rack, tucked away in a secure place of the house. Not just a laptop lying on a table that also gets used for web surfing. A VM works too but then you're putting lot of strain on your NAS/SAN, a dedicated box with it's own raid is probably more ideal but a VM for testing is fine.

author: akis
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 12, 2019, 11:44:25 am
content: I just returned a couple of ieGeek cameras: no onboard web server, PC application does not work, you got to do everything on the phone. They do support ONVIF but only for video and pan/tilt, not for configuration. However video was very clear in light and in dark and the camera panned and tilted quickly and quietly. I think it is the firmware/software that lets these cameras down.Onwards looking for a better camera.

author: ptricks
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 12, 2019, 11:57:21 am
content: Depending on how secure you want to be I wouldn't recommend wifi or any type of wireless for security. I don't even recommend installing home security systems that are not wired to the sensors after seeing how easy it is to buy a wide spectrum jamming device that essentially disrupts everything from wireless door sensors to wifi.Wired is definitely more work, especially in home security systems, but it is definitely more reliable and very hard to circumvent if done correctly.For external POE devices you can get inline devices that will detect if a device is removed from the network and trigger alarms should someone tamper with an external cable.

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 12, 2019, 04:47:50 pm
content: Quote from: akis on July 12, 2019, 11:44:25 amI find this very surprising. Are you sure? What model?My cameras are old, the cheapest of the cheap, and all have better capabilities. I suspect you might have missed something. What model camera?

author: akis
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 12, 2019, 05:05:33 pm
content: ieGeek / Sricamhttp://www.sricam.com/product/id/66e005d40593482ca14957fe87562952.htmlIt is geared towards using from a phone from users that do not have PCs and/or do not know how to set up local control and recording, that is why it is lacking an onboard web server and the proprietary PC application is a joke (does not work).I was hoping to get a camera that would support a "standard" protocol for control, video and monitoring so it could be used from third party / open-source apps.I have now bought 2 Foscams to try,https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B07RP9JKCDWill let you know how they fare.

author: Red Squirrel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2019, 01:06:27 am
content: Quote from: akis on July 12, 2019, 11:44:25 amThat's the frustrating part of home security cameras now, so many proprietary gimmicks that have to be tied to a phone. I hate this trend of everything relying on a phone and app... and an account.I have not fully researched myself yet, but this one looks decent:https://www.memoryexpress.com/Products/MX72802

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2019, 08:36:18 am
content: Quote from: Red Squirrel on July 13, 2019, 01:06:27 amThey are different products for different markets. If you don't do your research and, as a result, buy the wrong product for your needs that does not mean there is anything wrong with the product. Many people like the convenience of plugging in the camera and having the camera app on their phone.It is not only with security cameras but with everything else many people are moving away from computers and only use their phones even if it means giving up capabilities.Quote from: Red Squirrel on July 13, 2019, 01:06:27 amIt better be good. That's about ten times the price I have paid for any of my similar 720p cams.

author: akis
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2019, 11:48:20 am
content: While waiting for the new cams to arrive, I am using a VirtualBox to install and test and experiment with NVR software.I installed iSpy which looks to be absolutely great, unfortunately to use its Web Server capability you must take out a subscription (even though the web server is running on your server...).Would you be able to suggest an open-source NVR that does not need paid subscription? I do not need any DDNS, or remote servers, I can host everything on my premises, I mostly need the NVR stuff (alerts, motion detection, emails, recording, compressing, etc).

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2019, 04:15:59 pm
content: Quote from: akis on July 13, 2019, 11:48:20 amThe reason for this has been explained. Internet servers help establish the direct connection between both end points.Quote from: akis on July 13, 2019, 11:48:20 amThe cameras I am using use free servers in China (xmeye.net). As I said, they are full of vulnerabilities. Of course, I do not need that if I am accessing from the same LAN so, as has been suggested, you can VPN into your LAN and then you do not need any external servers to set up the connection.Most people want to buy something they can use out of the box and only a tiny minority would want to design a more complex system.All these IP addresses are usually hard coded in the firmware so I do not think it is easy to alter or adapt. You can just isolate the LAN from the internet and then VPN into the LAN.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2019, 12:02:11 am
content: Quote from: soldar on July 13, 2019, 04:15:59 pmThat's what dynamic DNS does, and there are many free dynamic DNS services out there. It also apparently could be done using Tor and eliminate the use of the cloud altogether, which, to my understanding, does not even involve the scarce exit nodes since both ends would be inside the Tor network.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2019, 12:07:56 am
content: Quote from: Red Squirrel on July 13, 2019, 01:06:27 amIt's gotten so bad manufacturers don't even inform you about requiring an account any more. You have to buy a product to find out you're required to go through their servers to begin using it. It's annoying this is true even for products that don't inherently require external network access.

author: Red Squirrel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2019, 11:16:22 am
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on July 14, 2019, 12:07:56 amThat's the thing that annoys me too. Had to go through all that just to be able to use my DJI Phantom drone. Same with my Gopro. Heck the other day I saw a blutooth hair straightener!not that I need that myself just saw an article on one that of course had a security flaw. This whole connected BS is getting out of hand.

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2019, 12:47:45 pm
content: Quote from: Red Squirrel on July 14, 2019, 11:16:22 amA couple months ago my wife was gifted some device which monitors physical activity and other such stuff,I forget the name(ETA: Fitbit), and she asked me to find out how to use it. I looked it up and found out the first thing it requires is a "free" account. We both agreed to pass on it. I don't think we want to insult anybody by re-gifting it.

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2019, 06:00:37 am
content: All the cameras that I bought cheaply on eBay were made by XiongMai and have the vulnerabilities disclosed.There is a second hidden account with the username and password combo of default/tluafedI tried it and it works. It is hidden and cannot be deleted. Just one of the many vulnerabilities.QuoteQuoteNest cam hacked! Family verbally abused through in-home camerahttps://youtu.be/qkkIhxEEXGI?t=1

author: akis
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2019, 01:02:23 pm
content: OK, but if we assume that all cameras are small computers, running a mini-OS (or maybe, not so "mini"), and this OS is infested with security backdoors and compromises. So we need to have these cameras on a quarantined LAN, or somehow prevent them from accessing the internet.My latest cameras are the Foscam R2M. They are very good. But the casual approach of the Chinese manufacturers towards security is astounding. I do not know where to start giving examples. In my latest exchange I asked them to allow their web-client application to work in "user" mode rather than requiring "admin" which results in security degradation. Their reply was, verbatim, "It is convenient without admin access but it is safe with the admin access and you can also set up your own username and password of VMS. "Translating this he/she probably means1) "It is inconvenient without admin access"convenience over security2) "set your own password of VMS". (VMS is their NVR own application).It is the damned VMS I am mostly worried about! Asking the wolf to guard the sheep...They really have no idea about security; they are not malicious, they are like what we were like in the 80s...

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2019, 01:18:37 pm
content: Quote from: akis on July 15, 2019, 01:02:23 pmExactly! Not just IP cams. Put everything IoT in a dedicated LAN segment with a FW. Remote access only via VPN. And stay away from the cloud. It's a security nightmare and we've seen too many cases of e-junk caused by the shutdown of the corresponding cloud services.

author: paulca
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2019, 08:27:58 am
content: It's getting worse with some kids toys now required to be cloud connected and the constant drip of exploits and hacks by paedophiles to track, spy, groom them.I bought my daughter 2, an Amazon Fire HD to watch cartoons on. But to watch anything Amazon want to push you must leave the Wifi enabled. So instead I will download content to it and make sure the Wifi is off when she has the device. I may, just in case, find a way to permenantly disable the camera, even if that means introducing it to my soldering iron tip to "frost" the lens.I am slowly, as a hobby, implementing a home automation, control and monitoring system. I refuse to use a single cloud/online service for it. I will do my own. If I do later choose to integrate it with any cloud features, I will write the interface myself. I would rather that someone hacks my webserver or AWS EC2 and it's my fault than to trust it to ass hats in these cloud companies.

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2019, 10:33:09 am
content: OK, this thread has prompted me towastespend quite some time playing with some IP cameras and different software.At this point I am quite amazed that when I bought the cameras and recorder all separately they all pretty much connected and worked together without issue because now I see the many problems that can come up.My wife's family are, again, asking me about buying and installing a system and told me they were recommendedthis system. I haven't looked at it closely yet but with that price and knowing you get something which will work right out of the box it may be good for non-tech people. Of course, it uses wifi...So, I have beenwastingspending time with my cameras and computer.OnVif Device Manager immediately locates and identifies all devices on the network. Three cameras work and display video well and in a fourth camera the video does not display. The recorder is located and identified but does not work.iSpy gives the same results. Three cameras work but the fourth one does not. Of course, I am using the parameters provided by onvif Device Manager so this is not surprising.The general format used isCode:rtsp://192.168.1.333:554/user=admin_password=neZ3wSSM_channel=1_stream=0.sdp?real_streamBut the fourth camera works fine when accessed with the browser, and with the recorder, so it must be just a matter or finding the correct command or string. I thought of using a network recording tool, likeWireSharkor similar, to record and inspect the traffic between browser and camera to see what commands and strings the camera requires. I got as far as recording a file with all the traffic but analyzing it is more than I am willing to do right now.I also triedCMSand, after some tinkering, it did manage to display the fourth camera. I had to enter IP and port manually but it finally did connect.To anyone who just wants a system that works I would recommend buying a complete system. Even then you should be aware of security vulnerabilities. The simplest way to deal with that is to have it on a separate LAN with no internet access.Another issue to take into account is the necessary bandwidth. I would expect to have problems with four cameras using wifi. Also, if you will be using a computer as a recorder it better be quite powerful. An old laptop you have lying around is not going to cut it.That's my report for today.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2019, 12:33:54 pm
content: Quote from: paulca on July 16, 2019, 08:27:58 amCheck if there's a straightforward way to root it on XDA. The only time I would ever consider buying an unrootable Android device is if it's crazy cheap.

author: mrflibble
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2019, 07:38:11 pm
content: Quote from: madires on July 15, 2019, 01:18:37 pmNo kidding. Some time ago I bought one of those cheap IP cams to play around with. I was expecting some infosec entertainment, and was not disappointed. It was almost as if someone had taken the"How to make a moderately secure network connected user appliance"tutorial, universally applied a boolean NOT to every sentence and started ticking them boxes.

author: paulca
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2019, 10:26:33 am
content: Quote from: NiHaoMike on July 16, 2019, 12:33:54 pmApparently the Fire HD NetFlix and Amazon Prime apps allow "offline content", so in the "Adults" section of the device you can download offline content that can be made available in the kids account. This is second hand information, but if true it should make it easier to provide limited content and not need the Wifi connected to view.