Let's discuss why this can be?  Teledyne vs. Siglent.. - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: BillyO
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2025, 02:29:39 am
content: Here in Canada the Teledyne LeCroy T3DSO1104 is $2,400 and the Siglent SDS1104X-E is $690.1) Who would buy the T3DSO1104?2) How is 3.5 times the price justified?3) Isn't $1700 a lot to spend for a sticker?

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2025, 02:55:49 am
content: Why would anybody buy either one of those stickers in 2025?

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2025, 02:57:45 am
content: Here's one for you: Digikey sells the T3DMM6-5 for $1900!https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/teledyne-lecroy/T3DMM6-5/9598585

author: Helix70
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 28, 2025, 03:01:51 am
content: Support, service and warranty.

author: BillyO
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2025, 03:03:57 am
content: QuoteIndeed!But still - both are currently available and essentially identical. It just boggles the mind.You can get an SDS1104X-HD and SDS804X-HD (and fix them ^up^) for a few bucks more than the price of that Teledyne

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2025, 03:07:52 am
content: If Teledyne LeCroy is an approved vendor and Siglent is not, then thou shalt buy Teledyne....Maybe they give big discounts.

author: BillyO
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2025, 03:09:47 am
content: Quote from: Helix70 on April 28, 2025, 03:01:51 amLOL, Siglent's warranty and service are 300% better than anyone else. I had a Siglent DC load come up with a bad display and the Siglent dealer, after asking for a picture of the display, shipped me a new one along with a shipping label to return the faulty one. Will Teledyne do that? Ha!

author: BillyO
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2025, 03:13:48 am
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on April 28, 2025, 03:07:52 amMaybe for schools. The price I put in the OP was a discounted retail price. You'll pay nearly $500 more to get it from DigiKey.

author: BillyO
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2025, 03:17:12 am
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on April 28, 2025, 02:57:45 amThat's $2983 in Canada vs. $1028 for the Siglent.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2025, 03:52:23 am
content: Facts are LeCroy are a good few years ahead of Siglent and their branding should demand a higher price.However for the LeCroy lost cost range they took Siglent under their wing and had Siglent produce HW for them as a joint venture and gave LeCroy western marketing rights for those models but they were also sold in China as Siglent branded yet the SW that fueled them was plainly by LeCroy and such was visible on the display.It has been good to witness this long standing relationship of at least a dozen years that I'm aware of which has helped Siglent get a strong foothold in the marketplace in their own right.Long may it continue......

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2025, 04:02:27 am
content: Quote from: tautech on April 28, 2025, 03:52:23 amIn the case of the two specific products thatBillyOmentioned, does Teledyne LeCroy have ANY actual product differentiation beyond logos? Different firmware, aged references, different calibration routines, etc etc? I could see there being a quite significant difference in the value if there was a material difference in the end product even if it was 100% based on the same hardware design.

author: BillyO
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2025, 04:03:08 am
content: Quote from: tautech on April 28, 2025, 03:52:23 amI get what you are saying. That answers one of my questions. But 200%+ mark-up? Who would pay it and why should they?bdunham7 offered one reason, but that alone would amount to dismal sales figures. It's still not making a lot of sense to me.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2025, 04:40:39 am
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on April 28, 2025, 04:02:27 amYes, at one time on this very forum LeCroy FW was more advanced than in the same Siglent products and many installed the LeCroy FW to fix bugs that Siglent had not yet got to back then.A forum search should find such info....

author: Smokey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2025, 05:11:56 am
content: I was thinking about this stuff the other day.Siglent quickly went from an all around joke (a-la-hantek) to a competitive position in the low cost equipment market. Was this mostly due to the relationship with LeCroy?I can only imagine the LeCroy brand took a hit initially for being associated with Siglent in the beginning of all that.

author: rteodor
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2025, 06:13:51 am
content: eevBLAB 101: Why are Tektronix Oscilloscope so Expensive?

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2025, 06:45:27 am
content: Quote from: rteodor on April 28, 2025, 06:13:51 amIs that relevant here? Only difference is the sticker label and different logo.These are completely developed and manufactured by Siglent.Only relevant thing from the video might be what was already mentioned: approved vendor lists.

author: rteodor
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2025, 08:14:00 am
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on April 28, 2025, 06:45:27 amWhy should not be relevant ? The ways of marketing can be twisted and hidden behind contracts.Maybe its just a flop product or maybe it sells well with extra sauce. Who can tell (apart from their sales team) ?Reasons enumerated in the video:1. Warranty support2. Industrial rated components with guaranteed longevity on the market and stable supply chain3. Made <local> assurance or in own factory, export control4. Application support5. Construction quality and consistency6. Longevity of production7. Calibration and servicing8. Measurement confidence9. Approved vendors10. De-facto standard11. Accessories12. Pioneers of high-end

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2025, 09:11:01 am
content: Quote from: rteodor on April 28, 2025, 08:14:00 amDear RTeodor, it is you that are mistaken here. You did not read OP original question and previous discussion and answered to a presumption what was being discussed here.So bit of explanation. Siglent manufactures line of scopes. LeCroy imports some of Siglent scopes and sells them under their brand.They are full Siglent design, from hardware to the last line of software. Only difference is logo on boot and sticker on the case.They come from the same production line and have same specs.LeCroy price them to be much more expensive.From your list,4.might be in play and9.is definitely a factor.Everything else is absolutely the same.Not to mention that many of those itemized reasons are not as good as they pretend to be.For instance,12. Pioneers of high endis irrelevant for majority of products, except high end ones. Do you think Keysight 1000 series carries any technology from their cutting edge 100 GHz scope? If anything, "premium" manufacturers will have make sure their lower end products have barest minimum of features so you go for more expensive ones.Actually LeCroy rebranding Siglent in lower end is giving them best low end product line amongst all A brand manufacturers.

author: Wrenches of Death
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2025, 12:05:09 pm
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on April 28, 2025, 09:11:01 amBingo!WoD

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2025, 12:33:16 pm
content: Quote from: Smokey on April 28, 2025, 05:11:56 amWell yes and no.We have to go back some 10+ years to get some sort of picture of what was going on back then....Siglent claim to have started marketing under their own name in 2009 yet their principals started investigating DSO's in 2002 and released their ADS7000 range in 2005.https://int.siglent.com/history/It is also common knowledge they produced DSO's for Atten where I first came upon this brand in ~2010 and later Siglent in 2013 with my 1st order of SDS1102CNL which for all intensive purposes was the same model as an Atten 1102CAL but was better polished.By 2014 Siglent had released their SDS3000 that was the fruit of their partnership with LeCroy and ran with these until an updated SDS3000X was released some years later.https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent_s-new-products-sds3000-series-oscilloscopes/AFAIK both the now obsolete SDG1000 and SDS1000CFL models were also LeCroy branded and possibly more too.Like any small business it's all about numbers and their is no doubt their relationship with LeCroy helped along with the rebrands to various markets and sellers too.Russian AKIP is a lesser known rebrand and if memory serves me they were like LeCroy, overpriced compared to OEM branding.Siglent's greatest technical advancement started with X model branding, then to their A models and their 12bit HD models of today.50 GHz models in some products are now available and I know it won't stop there......

author: mawyatt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2025, 01:37:48 pm
content: One must consider wrt to TE pricing that large companies don't pay list price, the receive substantial discounts because of the total $ they spend per year on new TE.Best

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2025, 01:58:59 pm
content: Just another high tech company bought by a non-innovative conglomerate wanting to ride the wave?Managers at Teledyne may discuss topics like:We can't afford to spend all that development costsWe need to find a way to use OTS products to reduce our engineering costsMy prodigy son bought a bunch of cheap shit and says it way better than what we sellOur customers want cheap TEWho knows... When Teledyne rebrands a new product, do you think their engineering, or their marketing department evaluates approves it? My guess, their marketing department. Their engineering groups would be like, we tested to their claimed specs and it failed. The marketing group would be more like, looks sexy to me. Our customer's will love it.I wouldn't buy any product for the brand name.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2025, 02:34:07 pm
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on April 28, 2025, 01:58:59 pmIf you think that the marketing department is willing to risk their brand name's trust level for a few pennies, that's crazy. They aren't going to run with something the engineering team thinks is shit.I also don't buy because of the brand name. But if a company shows to have good products and support, I will certainly lean that way.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2025, 03:12:38 pm
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on April 28, 2025, 02:34:07 pmIt wouldn't surprise me one bit. There were countless name brands that took decades to build that have followed similar paths. When Teledyne took over, I wonder how much talent they lost. They may be a small skeleton crew now maintaining and riding the wave to maximize profits. For the short term anyway.Again, I have no idea what is going on at LeCroy. Pure speculation on my part for discussion purposes only.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2025, 03:41:50 pm
content: I base my comments on what I have seen over my career.The following was taken from a 2004 article, Outsourcing Americahttps://aflcio.org/about/leadership/statements/outsourcing-americaQuoteWe were heading down that path long before that article was published. My guess is you are just seeing another company that was hanging on, now following that same path is all.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2025, 04:04:35 pm
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on April 28, 2025, 03:41:50 pmIt's easy to cynically assume the worst of every situation. However, you're ignoring the fact that those very same products do generally very well under their OEM. So the risk to LeCroy is not a risk. 🤷

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2025, 04:32:56 pm
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on April 28, 2025, 04:04:35 pmThey may seem to do very well under your standards (or mine) but unless LeCroy has an adequate support channel of their own for those products they do run the risk of their customers not appreciating being told to simply scrap their meters when they fail calibration. Someone that does buy a more expensive LeCroy-branded version through their approved vendor is going to expect a different "product experience" than you or I buying from Amazon.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2025, 04:35:37 pm
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on April 28, 2025, 04:04:35 pmI can't say overall if it has been good for the country. I have watched my home town decline with the middle class and pushing the blue collar workers into poverty. I have no doubt that UNI-T products sell well. They are in business for a reason. Would I by UNI-T products from LeCroy, no. Would I see that as a blemish on LeCroy's rich history, yes.If the only they they bring to the table is rebranded, low end Chinese products, I may as well buy direct.

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2025, 05:00:01 pm
content: Quote from: BillyO on April 28, 2025, 02:29:39 amHi,Yes, you are also purchasing the name.However, it is important to note that most options are already included with the labeled LeCroy models.Depending on the labeled model, this may have a greater or lesser impact on the difference compared to the original Siglent model.SDS1104X-E may be the worst example of this.I have a different calculation here, a different model:SDS2000X HD....As Lecroy T3DSO2204HD, it costs a supposedly hefty €4,000 net(3995€ by RS)But it already includes almost everything that an (honest) buyer would have to purchase separately for the SDS2204X HD, except for LA, which is always optional with Lecroy.And then I arrive (Batronix prices) at€4,166for an SDS2204X HD to get the same features as the Lecroy.Looks a little different, doesn't it...

author: EEgang
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: April 28, 2025, 05:18:33 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on April 28, 2025, 03:52:23 amYep, it's very obvious that LeCroy helped and had inputs with the Siglent scope SW. Good for China!

author: egonotto
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2025, 05:19:12 pm
content: Hello,I am surprised that the black 100 MHz Lecroy T3DSO2104HD is available at RS for 4224.5 € including VAT.Best regardsegonotto

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2025, 05:40:34 pm
content: Including value added tax, the 200 MHz would also cost €4,754 (and the Siglent €4,957), so that is correct.You really have to look twice at Lecroy's prices.Sometimes they're not much more expensive, sometimes they're exorbitantly more.Either way, I would rather inquire directly with Lecroy, but that doesn't work as a private customer.

author: bson
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 28, 2025, 05:48:33 pm
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on April 28, 2025, 04:02:27 amNot that I think it matters much, but LeCroy firmware is Windows 10-based while Siglent is Linux-based. LeCroy (at least in some scopes, not sure if all) offers a Windows desktop that allows installing more or less arbitrary software, while Siglent doesn't offer a desktop environment. I don't know if this applies to the entry-level instruments, or if there are any installable analysis suites like on the higher end.But, LeCroy has better Windows integration in general. For example, on my WaveSurfer 3000 I can set it to save screenshots to a folder on my NAS; the Siglent has nothing like that. Or just such a simple thing as setting a computer name, which is then injected into my local DNS when it gets a DHCP lease. The SDS5000X is a hugely better scope in many ways, but the WS is a little more feature rich. (Well, the Siglent should be vastly better HW, given they're separated by almost 10 years.)One thing more practical on the LeCroy is that it allows me to grab a big capture record, then examine it, searching for things (similar to trigger settings) and changing decoder settings, or switching decoders.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2025, 05:58:35 pm
content: Quote from: bson on April 28, 2025, 05:48:33 pmOne of the things you have to keep in mind that Lecroy rebrands the lower end stuff and does little to the firmware except for branding. Where it comes to Lecroy's own scopes (which run Lecroy's own software), the situation is entirely different. These machines are way more versatile and have a vast amount of analysis options (and some Lecroy-isms). AFAIK the Wavesurfer 3000 was/is a bit of a dud though because the platform doesn't offer the performance required to run Lecroy's own software.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2025, 06:10:50 pm
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on April 28, 2025, 04:35:37 pmThat's a totally different conversation. Realistically, nothing regarding any of these devices will change that. Except for, maybe, being able to afford some of these products that would cost 20x more if made in the US.QuoteYou can't lump all Chinese products into this. Lecroy is working with one of the top tier Chinese providers. The products are lower-end than some of their other products, but that doesn't make them low end compared to things from, for example, Uni-T.

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2025, 06:13:54 pm
content: QuoteWavesurfer 3000(Z) and Wavesurfer 4000HD are manufactured by Siglent for Lecroy, the latter exclusively; the 3000 model was also available for the Asian market (SDS3000X).The performance of the WS3000 without “Z” was really poor; they couldn't cope with Windows Embedded and were too slow.The successors with “Z” got faster SoC, which runs much more smoothly and has more features.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2025, 06:26:45 pm
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on April 28, 2025, 03:12:38 pmI don't think you need to worry about Lecroy. Lecroy's core business has always been high-end scientific data acquisition and processing equipment. They have been rebranding their lower end gear for ages. Since the 1990's they have sold rebranded oscilloscopes (made by Iwatsu IIRC). All what Teledyne did was add more rebranded products to the lineup without altering the core business. It is just bringing in more money without any investment in R&D. IMHO this (partial diversification) strategy makes Lecroy stronger instead of weaker.

author: bson
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 28, 2025, 06:43:58 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on April 28, 2025, 05:58:35 pmNo, it runs LeCroy's own software, but it does so on WinCE, without a proper desktop. But it's still a version, if simplified, of the same software as on their other scopes.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2025, 06:55:50 pm
content: Quote from: bson on April 28, 2025, 05:48:33 pmAll of the scopes that came after SDS5000x can connect to network share too. And on 7000A there is SignalScan that does same thing as Wavescan on LeCroy. We will see if SignalScan moves to some other scopes too.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2025, 07:50:06 pm
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on April 28, 2025, 06:10:50 pmI don't see Siglent as a top tier provider but again, if I wanted to buy Siglent, I would. I wouldn't buy them from LeCroy. Like buying UNI-T vs Fluke, I would buy the tool I need for the job. If I could get away with UNI-T so be it.Guessing most of what LeCroy had sold over the last few decades was not made in the USA. My old daily driver was not.Quote from: nctnico on April 28, 2025, 06:26:45 pmThe only reason I would worry about Teledyne would be if my net worth were tied to them. They could fold like Lucent Technologies and it would have little effect on me. I don't see rebranding cheap products or aiding potential competitors being any benefit in the long term. Sound more like something some marketing MBAs would do for short term gains.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2025, 08:02:17 pm
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on April 28, 2025, 07:50:06 pmI specified top tier in China, which they are. They arguably contend with A brands internationally, but within China (or specifically Chinese brands), they're absolutely top tier.QuoteThat opinion is maybe true in some situations, but the specific relationship we're talking about has lasted over a decade. That might be short term on the grand scheme of things, but it's certainly long term in business.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2025, 08:18:15 pm
content: Quote from: bson on April 28, 2025, 05:48:33 pmWRT these comments, Siglents models from SDS800X HD and above all offer this same feature set.....starting at $ 340 !

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2025, 08:37:17 pm
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on April 28, 2025, 08:02:17 pmAnd I stated, "I don't see Siglent as a top tier provider". While you claim I can't lump them all together, I do because their best is poor compared with the brands I am used to. If I wanted to buy low end unpolished equipment I would. If that is what LeCroy wants to be known for selling, so be it.Quote from: KungFuJosh on April 28, 2025, 08:02:17 pmSituation? Nctnico suggested "I don't think you need to worry about Lecroy." As far as how it works out for them in the long term, time will tell. 10 years is nothing and they have helped to slingshot their competition.***Not what I expect out of a top tier company, no matter what country they reside in:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-they-filed-a-_wrongful-trademark-claim_/

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2025, 08:47:50 pm
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on April 28, 2025, 08:37:17 pmProbably Tequipment's fault- they're the WORST.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2025, 08:51:05 pm
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on April 28, 2025, 08:02:17 pmHow do you know? Given the size of the market there are likely dozens of test equipment manufacturers in China we never heard of and they may make excellent products. Outside China we only really know a handful of brands.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2025, 09:00:53 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on April 28, 2025, 08:51:05 pmFair enough. "That we know of." 😉Still, top tier doesn't mean they're the best in the world (or region); it means they're among the best.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2025, 09:15:50 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on April 28, 2025, 08:51:05 pmIt's not like China is on the dark side of the moon. You can go there and check it out. There is plenty of international commercial and academic activity so I'm pretty sure there isn't like an entire Keysight or similar company that is totally hidden with its products just an unknown outside China. Even if there were such a company and they had no intention of marketing outside China there would be people that would know about it. An example of a lesser-known company that actually makes products that are at least second-tier is Tonghui. And despite doing no OEM-branded marketing in the west, we've heard of them. I think for Chinese "top-tier" oscilloscopes you're looking at Siglent, MicSig and Rigol. It is not easy at all to create a company that can develop products that are better than what those companies offer.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2025, 09:17:41 pm
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on April 28, 2025, 09:00:53 pmBest in their own little fish bowl, not the ocean. Like your smart in your small circle of friends? In the end, who cares? We are talking about competing in the global market. There, Siglent has a long way to go. But, are coming up fast IMO. Won't be long and they will have no need for Teledyne.***Just in case ... Like your smart in your small circle of friends?, is not directed toward you personally, rather just a common saying.As far as training your competitors, on a larger scale we as a country do that. There is some recent chat in the news but they are not talking about our past choices ...https://npolicy.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/08/Article980601_Selling_China_the_Rope_-_WS_290111_0820.pdf

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2025, 09:51:59 pm
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on April 28, 2025, 09:15:50 pmTongHui is excellent in their field, at least with hardware. A lot of companies rebrand their LCR products, and some get it better than them, like SourceTronic (excellent customer service vs. TH nearly non-existent customer service). Other better known companies rebrand their fixtures at a nice markup, including top tier brands.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2025, 09:56:37 pm
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on April 28, 2025, 09:17:41 pmThat little fish bowl is 1/8th of the global population. Agreed otherwise, they've come along way, and are making great progress.QuoteI got your meaning, but your friends care- especially when they need you to fix some shit. 😉😉

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2025, 10:04:16 pm
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on April 28, 2025, 09:56:37 pmSure enough, they know how to pop them out. I guess they are in the top tier for that one metric.Quote from: KungFuJosh on April 28, 2025, 09:56:37 pmI'm sure that is what they think I do for a living. At least with disposable electronics, sure we produce large amounts of e-waste for the generations to come. The upside, no one has asked me to repair a TV, radio, computer.... in a very long time.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 28, 2025, 10:51:30 pm
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on April 28, 2025, 06:45:27 amYou'd be very surprised how important this is in many big organisations.

author: BillyO
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2025, 11:29:20 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on April 28, 2025, 10:51:30 pmEspecially governments!

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 29, 2025, 08:25:36 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on April 28, 2025, 10:51:30 pmI am not. That is why I sad it was relevant.And the rest of the stuff you said is also sometimes a factor, just not in this case.My point is that you made a list of things that may be at play. But they might not all be at play at all times, and people think it an atomic list that applies at all times, in full.Here is my ad hoc list of observations- There are some big brands that lately have worse support than some newcomers.- Big brands that have high prices will tell you that is price of good support. When you need support you have to pay for it separately. Wasn't that included in big price? That was one of the explanation for big price in the first place. Confusion...- Big brands and newcomers don't repair stuff anymore. It is all module/pcb level replacements. No schematics. How is service better in that regard, left or right?- Like I said before, there is not a single common screw in production of Renault Clio and their Formula 1 car. Not even the same type of engineering. "We are at the cutting edge!" applies only to those cutting edge products.- Big brand manufacturers optimize for profit. They are in that part of curve where they try to capitalize on brand name. Smaller brands try to prove themselves and will try to give you more for less (with varying success) to capture market. Small business, hobby market might be better off with smaller vendor that consider them important part of their strategy then with mega-vendors that consider them small change and simply don't care.So it is not that simple as it used to be. World is changing.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 29, 2025, 08:54:55 am
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on April 29, 2025, 08:25:36 amThe main reason they offer a rebadged (and possibly slightly updated, I believe Lecroy have their own firmware version branch) is that they need something to offer in the lower end range when the big customers buy the big stuff and go "Oh, we need a few extra smaller cheaper scopes for general use, what have you got?" then they have something to offer them and throw onto the quote. And also for schools and other big customers who have a need to bulk buy, where big discount can be offered.Lecroy aren't after Siglent's market selling onesies and twoies to Joe Average, that's why the price it so high, so that you literally go elsewhere to buy your one small scope.It's like when a contractor gives you a quote for a job and it's 5 times the price of the other guy, they don't want your business so they give you the stupid quote.

author: bson
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 29, 2025, 08:37:12 pm
content: Presumably there's also the matter of required features. If a customer regularly uses something like LeCroy's LabNoteBook in their higher end scopes, then likely they'd want it at the low end as well. I don't personally use it, or care, but have to assumesomeonethinks it's important, presumably one or many large customers, who could very well mandate its use as part of engineering processes. I can see how it could be useful as part of a review process, or as part of bug tracking to document how to reproduce a problem.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 29, 2025, 09:01:58 pm
content: That's easy to just say "Nope! Gotta buy the more expensive scope for that."

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 29, 2025, 09:58:35 pm
content: @eevblog, @bson,LeCroy rebadged scopes of Siglent models have NO difference whatsoever, apart from sticker and logo on boot.But those scopes are very good in a first place.Dave,I understand why LeCroy does it, and also understand why big customers would rather buy from a qualified vendor.And not only that. As you and other said, with A brand vendors they list inflated prices but negotiate deals.In fact, I just received this few days ago, fully loaded. This price is actually better than what Siglent has now when there are no special offers.So in this case you would actually be better off with LeCroy offer.So for a long term large LeCroy user, no need for Siglent.

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 29, 2025, 10:13:14 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on April 29, 2025, 08:54:55 amThat's why they also offer relabeled power supplies, multimeters, and even LCR meters.If you're already setting up your lab, then you don't need to shop anywhere else....With Siglent and, to some extent, GwInstek, LeCroy has brought partners on board with whom they do not have to worry about poor quality.In addition, LeCroy has a deeper partnership with Siglent, which is “allowed” to build the Wavesurfer models and certainly benefits from a certain amount of technology exchange.In return, the SDS3000X has never been offered outside the Asian market, and even the first “Pro” series, the SDS6000A, is only available here with a reduced 8-bit version, presumably to avoid competition with the Wavesurfer 4000 HD.But things are happening...With the SDS7000A series, Siglent is competing with the WavePro series. The SDS3000X HD can confidently be considered an “entry-level” model in the mid-range, and the future SDS5000X HD series will shake up the market for 6/8-channel scopes. Although the price is in the five-digit range, it is still relatively inexpensive. They have also significantly upgraded their spectrum analyzers/RF generators, none of which are available at low prices anymore...The days when Siglent could be considered a low-cost provider are coming to an end.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 29, 2025, 10:21:44 pm
content: Quote from: Martin72 on April 29, 2025, 10:13:14 pmExcept, of course, for the low-cost products they still offer. 😉

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 29, 2025, 10:24:33 pm
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on April 29, 2025, 09:58:35 pm1 GHz and USB 3.0 ports speak in favor of the 3000X HD, while the lack of active probe support suggests a 2000X HD... An exclusive LeCroy model?

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 29, 2025, 10:35:11 pm
content: Quote from: Martin72 on April 29, 2025, 10:13:14 pmIt's all relative. Try getting a quote for a fully-optioned Tek MSO68B with some IsoVu probes, etc.https://www.tequipment.net/Tektronix/MSO68B-6-BW-10000/Digital-Oscilloscopes/That's not even including the memory upgrade or probes--you might top $500k by the time you're done. And that's one that Siglent could conceivably compete with, it isn't Tek's top offering.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 29, 2025, 10:52:21 pm
content: Quote from: Martin72 on April 29, 2025, 10:24:33 pmGotta pay extra for the active probe support. 😉😉

author: egonotto
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 29, 2025, 11:00:23 pm
content: Hello,I could imagine that they don't want to have a LeCroy unfamiliar probe interface.Best regardsegonotto

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 29, 2025, 11:02:06 pm
content: Quote from: Martin72 on April 29, 2025, 10:24:33 pmOne expects so.LeCroy and Siglent use different active probe connections, each to their own.Then another thought....SDS2000X HD uses the same front panel but without active probe support.Mix and match....to make what the valued partner LeCroy wants.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 30, 2025, 01:41:00 am
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on April 29, 2025, 09:01:58 pmNope, what typically happens is you have a capex budget for say a new lab or a new project or whatever, and you often have a little left over, so you throw in a couple of extra low cost stuff on the same order. Like getting an extra little bonus scope for your own desk that you otherwise wouldn't have been able to request. This has happened at every big company I've worked for.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 30, 2025, 01:44:22 am
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on April 29, 2025, 10:52:21 pmMonthly subscription when...

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 30, 2025, 01:57:29 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on April 30, 2025, 01:41:00 amI was just kidding. Ego is obviously correct that they exclude them because they're not TD interfaces.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 30, 2025, 04:53:22 am
content: Quote from: tautech on April 29, 2025, 11:02:06 pmHmmmm, a 1GHz scope with active probe support vs one without. Having active probe ports on a somewhat lower end and more accessible scope makes a lot more sense in an organization that may not want to let just anyone use their $500k units but would be willing to let lesser engineers borrow a differential probe or two. Presumably such an organization might be a typical LeCroy customer. The Tek TBS2000 series had TekVPI ports and that made them quite useful in that someone that only merited a $3k scope on their bench could still borrow an expensive current probe or something.Do they still sell the Siglent-to-LeCroy adapters? So the SDS3000X-HD can use a LeCroy active probe but the T3DSO cannot?Marketing shmarketing, no wonder they're on sale.

author: AVGresponding
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 30, 2025, 05:33:16 am
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on April 28, 2025, 09:56:37 pmCloser to 1/4, in point of fact, with India following close behind

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 30, 2025, 06:43:03 am
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on April 30, 2025, 04:53:22 amLOL, it's not like universal fit specialist probes aren't available:https://siglentna.com/products/accessories/probes/differential-high-voltage-probes/https://siglentna.com/products/accessories/probes/current-probes/Sure a dedicated active probe is more convenient as attenuation is autoset and power is supplied from the scope....less mess on the bench and the reason why I splashed out on one of these last year:https://siglentna.com/product/scp5030-current-probe/^^ Much cheaper than a new Tek P6021 AC only current probeandeasier to use.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 30, 2025, 01:53:41 pm
content: Quote from: AVGresponding on April 30, 2025, 05:33:16 am1/8 = 12.5%1/4 = 25%China population: 1.411BWorld population: 8.062BActual percentage: 17.5%Closer to 1/8th in point of math. And inPrice is Rightrules. 😉

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 30, 2025, 01:54:04 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on April 30, 2025, 06:43:03 amAvailable for sale, sure. But not anything like this:https://www.teledynelecroy.com/probes/high-voltage-optically-isolated-probes/dl10-isoA big LeCroy customer might have one or more of those handy that could be used with the "lesser" scope on occasion--if it had Probus support, which the T3DSO model does not.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 30, 2025, 03:02:53 pm
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on April 30, 2025, 01:54:04 pmThat is a 25000 USD, if you haggle enough LeCroy might throw in a scope in a deal...OTOH, ODP6100B and SDS3104xHD might be more palatable.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 30, 2025, 04:04:55 pm
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on April 30, 2025, 03:02:53 pmA scope that doesn't work with the probe? Gee, thanks!QuoteYes, and those would seem to be compatible and thus result in a working solution. Is that probe available to me or you?

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 30, 2025, 04:32:50 pm
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on April 30, 2025, 04:04:55 pmIf you are Chinese, they are...Probably soon...

author: graybeard
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 01, 2025, 05:53:30 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on April 30, 2025, 01:41:00 amWhere I worked test equipment could only be bought by the equipment pool. If the pool found out that somehow you managed to get something in they did not own they would take possession of it. and start charging you for it.

author: rf-loop
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 01, 2025, 06:37:02 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on April 28, 2025, 08:51:05 pmQuote from: nctnico on April 28, 2025, 08:51:05 pmThere are also those who do not even want to provide information to outside of China. There may be(there is)top-notch equipment out there. Not everything is for sale on the free market.In some special cases also this: Why try sell goods to the country name x if you can get a better profit on the domestic market.If there is enough profit for a company in the internal market, why even try to enter foreign markets that are difficult in many ways.Another newer trend is that the Chinese have gradually begun to believe in the quality of domestic products, which has risen a lot in a last ten years and even more fast in last 2-4 years. Although there are also a lot of low-level products in the mix (also for sell in global crap markets. When the money is in a weak hand - let's collect it. ).

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 01, 2025, 04:20:40 pm
content: Quote from: rf-loop on May 01, 2025, 06:37:02 amI think this is more true today than ever before given all the tariff nonsense. Nothing builds domestic confidence better than foreign stupidity.