ProNegIon: Negative ions (anions) room generator - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / projects

author: eneuro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 27, 2015, 01:36:58 pm
content: Hello again.I've managed to work HV DC decent current PSU and after watching and reading about different negative ions anions health positive feeedback, decided to try to build one to be able operate it at room conditionsLooking for ways to create those negative ions (anions) but of course in away to avoid generate toxic ozone at the same timeI've some ideas based on other research work and scientific university theory behind this, but meanwhile I've found hereBenefits of anionssome demo with their productBlueN's Anion LED Light Bulbwhere they show how their leds remove smoke from airI smellthere and trying catch it -maybe slow motion needed to hack this video?-I'll convert to 1fps later to see frame by frame what is going thereWhat do you think about it?Maybe someone had success with custom negative ions (anions) room generators and wants exchange research experiments?I'll make such next week to see If I will be able create negative ions (anions) wind , tooAs far as I read, someone says those negatine ions devices can not be powered from battery, since we have to take this negative charge from somewhere (outside room?) , but didn;t made deep anaysis of this so far.Just looking for some "brains storm" if is it possible create more negative ions than positive in the room without toxic ozone production at the same time.What are negative ions (anions) chemistry talks about-using elsctronics to make them is what I want to do at home, to test if it can work at allWhat are Ions | The Chemistry Journey | The Fuse SchoolLets debunk those available generators and make own for pennies... using old CRT monitor flyback and my ZVS driver, which easy creates a few cm conductive HV plasma sparks when starting from a few mm spark gap at power consumption of less than 20W with a few cm nice plasma

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 27, 2015, 04:17:24 pm
content: There's no mystery to negative ion generators. You can get a good overview if you watch some of Big Clive's videos on the subject. Here's one:https://youtu.be/ZeTfYK651U0Clive has quite a few other videos on the subject. Search his channel for "Ionizer" or "Ioniser".

author: eneuro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 27, 2015, 09:56:27 pm
content: Thanks for this sethttps://www.youtube.com/user/bigclivedotcom/search?query=ioniserof ionisers teardown videosVery helpfull to see how those available on market could be doneAll those circuits inside were AC mains based 11-12 stages ofCockcroft–Walton generatorand while very difficult to fail capacitors and diodes at almost no load, manufacturers of those things found a way tothose things... by using overrated resistors in neon mains power indicator11-12 stages of voltage multiplier with 10nF caps and 1000V diodes at 230VAC mains 325Vmax limited by two 10Mohm resistors probably means output voltage frm this thing less than 4kV with current limited to 4kV/20M ~ 200uA , which looks similar to bigger Van de Graaff generators, but smaller produces output current at tens microamps range, so it looks like are even more safe than those AC mains based ionisers, but it is only estimation-I didn;t measured this so far.I've spotted on local market some cheapy $10-$15 ionisers, so probably similar circuit inside, powered from wall socket.Anyway, I've working HV DC shown below based on developed ZVS driver and everything powered from 12V car battery outputs decent sparks.However, while this circuit is completly insulated from earth, while powered from battery and there is insulated HV flyback secondary, trying to figure out if such HV DC output could be used in negative ionisers?When I turn off lights and connect sharp pin to negative (white) flyback output 10mm or so from metal ball connected to positive HV DC (red) than negative wire shows small blue corona, and when we put it closer to positive sphere plasma spark ignites and... this niddle melts, since electrons fly to positive electrode and like during welding DC+ on negative metal higher temperatures are developed.created arc destoys negative niddle within seconds...Update: UPS, electrons flow of course from metal to electrode in DC+ (DCEP) welding, but electrode is super heated, not metal, like in DC- (DCEN)....Never mind-sharp 0.5mm stick connected to Flyback HV DC- melted and this is conclusion that even such small pasma was capable melt niddle on negative side-I will test positive tooProblem is, that in the case of insulated flyback secondary positive is not grounded but floating, so our created negative ions (anions) flow not to earth througth air but to positive HV DC red wire and such ions generation doesn't have any sense, I guess?So, I was puzzled when saw this Yt video where "shaman" says about negative ions flow from those thick copper pipes accelerated between negative sharp edges, while probably those created negative ions will be absorbed in those copper pipes and create circuit and this has nothing with real negative ions (anions) generation during thunder storms-nothing to compare-with sharged clouds and induced on earth positive charge and light strikes of electrons from clound to ground.This video below is probably fake method of generating negative ions and I smell clearthere, but anionsNegative Ions GeneratorBTW: I've comented his video, but without any rant, just asking how it might work and linked links to my ZVS driver, and this "shaman" deleted my post of course-probably didn't wanted show his fans that ZVS driver doesn't have to look like solder art crap, but... quite normal standard double layer PCB with THT on top layer and SMD elements on the bottomBut, OK, thanks to Big Clive's videos, who also debunked two messy negative ions generators with shorted path of generated ions to AC mains neutral on PCb itself, probably his negative ions as mentioned above are destroyed on those copper pipes.Anyone could confirm this?I'd like to kindly ask again this guy, how floating flyback secondary can provide more negative ions than positive?I do not know, maybe this negative ions "wind" is so strong that those bloody copper pipes will not catch them?

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 27, 2015, 10:30:30 pm
content: To generate negative ions you just need to have a high voltage DC power supply and reference the positive end to ground (or the mains supply, which is effectively the same thing). Then you connect your negative end to the discharge needles or brushes, obviously through a high value current limiting resistor for safety reasons. The HV supply will then draw electrons from the "well" provided by the Earth and inject them into the air. The electrons will attach to air molecules, then to dust particles, and then float back to Earth via the nearest convenient surface (wall, floor, furniture, etc.). You will notice this happening as everything near to the ion generator will accrete a unsightly black layer of dirt.

author: eneuro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 28, 2015, 06:56:17 am
content: Quote from: IanB on September 27, 2015, 10:30:30 pmYep, grounding positive to ground in the case of floating HV DC from transformer secondary seams the only way to make it working and create anions flow througth air to ground.I've changed capacitor in my ZVS driver and added 10k resistor on HV DC- output into steel sphere shell and probably I will record sound created by generated ions which easy now to hear, to make sound spectrum analysis.It draws now 70mA from 12V car battery, which means <1W (~0.8W) input powerI think I will add two 10M 10kV resistors on each flyback output and make decent connection in garage ground with DC+ via 10M, another DC- via 10M to some kind of stainless cage with sharp edges and we'll see how it deals with dust or smoke from candleWhat about increasing this voltage to lets say 100kV like in Van de Graaff generators of course with current limit?At such high voltage probably humidity could greatly influence operation of such negative ions generator...Here we can find formulas to estimate maximum voltage generated on conductive sphere, like in Van De Graaff output, and a few cool experiments including ions generated close to this HV generator8.02 Electricity and Magnetism Lec 06: High-Voltage Breakdown and Lightning by prof. Walter LewinI think I'll make this source of negative ions (anions) spherical surface to make it more art look, not like those crappy looking in plastic enclusures ions genarators available on the market and we'll see if it will create healthy anions wind

author: codeboy2k
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 28, 2015, 04:35:29 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on September 27, 2015, 10:30:30 pmWhat you describe here sounds like the same as my Sharp PlasmaCluster air purifier.. Their literature and marketing pages describe a process that says it makes ions that attach themselves to dust in the air, and the excess weight makes them drop to the floor, thus cleaning the room. They are very clear to say that it is not ozone, and I don't smell the ozone at all. So is this PlasmaCluster a negative ion generator?I live in an indoor environment with 1 window, no cross-wind, and no forced air heating system. It was terribly dusty when I moved here until I bought the air purifier, and now it's about 100x better.When I don't run the purifier, I can turn on a flashlight in the dark room and move my hand, and see dust specks, and I can easily see and count about 10 specks per cubic centimeter in the flashlight's cone. Yes, indeed a very thick layer of dust in the air. When I run the purifier and check later, it is reduced to about 1 speck per 125 cubic centimeters, a volume of about 5x5x5cm. So I know it's working and I am not breathing that dust anymore (but surfaces are more dusty now)QuoteI don't get this side-effect. That may be because my "generator" is also a HEPA air filter, so it sucks it back in if it falls down, I guess. The filter is always dirty, I clean and vacuum it, change it once a year, but at least I am not breathing it anymore.So, to the OP, rather than build a negative ion generator that has exposed wires and might hurt you, why not just invest in a good air-purifier that (possibly?) includes a negative ion generator inside.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 28, 2015, 05:34:48 pm
content: Quote from: codeboy2k on September 28, 2015, 04:35:29 pmDoes this air purifier have a fan and circulate air around the room? If so, that is probably a good design.The classical negative ion generators like the Mountain Breeze just had needles that generated free floating ions near to the machine. This would cause dust to precipitate out on surfaces close by, leading to the black dirt layer.In industrial use there are electrostatic dust precipitators which circulate air through electrodes that charge up the dust particles and then catch the dust particles in an oppositely charged filter. It sounds like your Sharp air purifier may be similar to this.

author: eneuro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 28, 2015, 06:55:52 pm
content: Quote from: codeboy2k on September 28, 2015, 04:35:29 pmA few days ago bloody failed in strange way (didn't made teardown yet) PC power supply could try kill me when.... I noticed with HV probe that its enclosure has live mainsI have no idea why, because it seams to work, but looks like it lost its power...so there are many commercially available devices that can be much more dangerous than HV PSU with many mega Ohm resistance on its outputAdditionally flyback Hv DC output is not earth grounded but floating, so with limited output current, when we do not allow this HV build up charge in capacitance than it looks not so bad and flyback primary will be powered from 230VAC -> 12VAC transformer, so additional insulation from mains or even old car starter battery can be reused connected to solar PV panels...I'd like to experiment too withrocket stooveto burn wood during the day, so I will have huge fan on top, so maybe I will try somewhere here also put HV DC+ to collect charged catched dust into insulated conductive filterI like custom designs-right now reprogrammed my classic stoove MPU to support this additional fan and I have of course additional fan which sink air from outside building directly onto stoove to create higher presure in the room, so the only way air from the room can go out is stoove output pipe, so if this negative ions genarator worked air flow inside-out room could throw away catched dust with flames outside room.Probably it will work like this. I'm looking for metal based filters (carbon?) on local market tomorow, to be able install it insulated on stoove inlet and let room pressure flow air througth this filter outside buildingWe'll see if it works, anyway thanks @IanB for those principles of industrial electrostatic dust precipitators-i think I wiil try develop something similar with a little help of anions I hopeI have working stoove MPU software and it was tested more than year and is working now 24h a day/7days a week/365days a year and provide fresh air in the room based on stoove output temperature thermally coupled with room temperature-it never stops to keep higher fresh air presure in the room than outside...Basicly negative ions generator is next step in upgrade of this system, so if I tried buy any existing I still had to make custom modifications to fit into my requirements...

author: codeboy2k
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 28, 2015, 11:07:53 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on September 28, 2015, 05:34:48 pmYes, it has a fan and circulates the air. This air purifier works well, actually, with visible results and I'm very pleased.

author: Chris C
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2015, 03:22:14 pm
content: I've used ionizers and they generally work well, removing dust and particulates as advertised.You can buy ionizer modules from Ebay, or salvage them from air cleaners sold cheaply at thrift stores.The AC versions emit negative ions into the room, using the ground/neutral connection to get rid of the positive charge. Dust then tends to precipitate on whatever is near the ionizer, creating a "halo" of grime around it, that will need to be scrubbed away periodically. Applying some furniture wax (Pledge or equivalent) adds a layer which makes it easier to clean up.There are also DC powered versions. These can also be connected to ground/neutral to get rid of the positive charge. Or the positive charge can be routed to a nearby non-emitting metal plate. In which case the dust more selectively precipitates on it, which makes for easier cleanup.Building your own is an option, but 4-6KV seems to be the upper limit before ozone starts being produced, depending on who you ask. So if you want more negative ions, increase the current and add more emitters, rather than increasing the voltage.Emitters are usually metal needles, but there was one ionizer I used that had a emitter made from braided conductive carbon fiber. The end of every broken fiber made a needle emitter. If you put a finger close to it, you could see the broken ends glow.Running the output of a negative ion generator into the soil of a houseplant will give the plant a charge that deters pets from eating it. The plant will need a bit more water than usual, as the sharp edges of leaves become emitters; they generate an ion wind that seems to dry the plant out faster.

author: eneuro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2015, 06:54:38 pm
content: Quote from: Chris C on September 29, 2015, 03:22:14 pmIncreasing the output current rises safety issues.Not sure about this 4-6kV limit, since when we calculate air breakdown voltage of sphere charged to HV it depends on its diameter (radius) and theoretical estimated maximum voltage when we assume 3 mln volts/meter as air breakdown will be for 100kV but for 6cm (0.060m) in diameter sphere, while for 6mm sphere it will be not more than 10kV from linked above MIT academic lecture.I wonder, when I put HV DC+ wire around room on the bottom and connect it to some metal object (filter) and 5-10 meters away I put negative ions source with sharp edges DC- than at HV < 10kV we can still get those anions generated?How those AC based ionisers are capable create anions since its positive is on mains Neutral, which ar einside the walls in insulation?Maybe this formula for maximum voltage for Hv sphere radius is a key, since we have very sharp edges for negative ions generation, so this air breakdown voltage is relatively low, so it works when HV is applied and this sharp conductor edges are in the air, but regardless how far away we have HV power supply with its HV DC+ insulated or on sphere at radius big enougth -where this breakdown voltage is much higer than Hv power source amximum potential?Maybe this radius is a key there, since in the dark when connected both steel balls (i've shown one of them a few posts above it is 3cm-4cm in diameter, so capable to hold more than 10kV in theory, if it were ideal conductor sphere), but even when I put those steel spheres connected to flyback output HV +/-a few centimeters away from each other, on very good insulator ceramic base, than I noticed in dark room, that on its sharp hole edges and between ceramic base there were those small blue corona discharge visible, so maybe the key is this sphere radius holding given amount of HV potential up to its breakdown voltage limitI was looking today in local market for some air metal based filters, but I found only kitchen carbon filter available, however unfortunatelly I forgot to take multimeter to make measurements of resistance of this filter, while unsure if it is conductive-looked like a black foam... so I will test it tomorowI'm planning wireless energy transfer in the room too, so I'll have w few insulated strand copper wires around room area on the bottom ground, so I do not need connect this HV stuff to mains Neutral

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 30, 2015, 03:59:33 am
content: Quote from: eneuro on September 29, 2015, 06:54:38 pmI'm not sure why you keep talking about spheres so much when all the examples clearly indicate sharp needle points on the emitters?

author: Chris C
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 30, 2015, 04:31:59 am
content: Quote from: eneuro on September 29, 2015, 06:54:38 pmCompletely irrelevant. You did say:"Looking for ways to create those negative ions (anions) but of course in away to avoid generate toxic ozone at the same time"So it doesn't matter what a sphere does. You won't be using one as an emitter, as that doesn't efficiently emit negative ions. With a proper needle emitter the 4-6KV limit applies to limit ozone production.And as for the current, it doesn't take much to produce enough ions to very effectively clean the air in a room. It's more important that sufficient air circulation is provided to circulate the ions around the room. If you want to go completely overboard with ion production, then you might need enough current to pose a safety issue. But that is easily solved by connecting a ballast resistor to each emitter.Also, one of my air filters has an electrostatic emitter, which deposits dust on a carbon filter mounted in a cartridge between two layers of metal mesh, which is used as a cathode. The only pic I could find, as it's an uncommon filter:http://i.ytimg.com/vi/Q7Vl4xTbZ1k/maxresdefault.jpgThe replacement cartridges are quite expensive, so when my cartridge wore out, I bought some bulk carbon filter material and just swapped out the carbon. However, it didn't work as good as the original material. But I found that spraying the carbon with "Static Guard", an aerosol product made to remove static cling from clothes, made it work as well as the original. I guess it makes the carbon more conductive. I wash the filter every month, or whenever needed. Soap and water removes dust, but isopropyl alcohol is better for smoke deposits. Then I let it dry fully, and respray it with the Static Guard before reinstalling.

author: eneuro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 30, 2015, 10:46:14 am
content: Quote from: IanB on September 30, 2015, 03:59:33 amThere are only a few such emiters, sometimes carbon fibrer, and positive HV DC+ is not far away inside the same enclosure in the case of those AC ionisers.Additionaly in those teardown videos many of those ionisers were copy past circuit from another one, so I supspect their "manufacturers" could have no idea what are they doing, just copied another circuit and changed slightly, without deep analysis of physics behind this...making mistakes shown in a few Big Cleve's teardown videos...We need pure physics understanding behind this negative ions generation, because of physics worksQuote from: Chris C on September 30, 2015, 04:31:59 amIf you showed some physics equations which could allow calculate this 4-6kV limit it could be easier not to rely only on what is used, by why it is 4-6kV for such needle emiter?That is why I showed sphere calculation at given radius, while surface curvature can be estimated with many different radius based surfaces, so when we can calculate breakdown voltage of given sphere radius, than we could try understand what happends with sharp needle.To avoid generation of too much amount of ozone we have to know how to produce ozon, I guessPRINCIPLES OF OZONE GENERATIONQuoteThey are talking about air gap, but what when this air gap is 5m long (distance between HV charged positive eg. carbon filter or other metal object at shape which prevents breakdown at given voltage-maybe carbon filter not good) and negative needle emiters (or another low radius steel balls etc) in opposite room corner ?We need more physics and theory behind this, so it is time watch again and again MIT prof. Walter Lewin videos and additional scientific papers on HVMean time, I will wind room with a few turns of insulated strand wire and will try connect my ZVS driver to make wireless energy transfers inside room to have some fun

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 30, 2015, 11:04:40 am
content: Sharp says rather than create negative ions only they split ambient water in the air, that could work on batteries.

author: Chris C
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 30, 2015, 01:07:53 pm
content: Quote from: Marco on September 30, 2015, 11:04:40 amElectrostatic dehumidification. Splitting atmospheric humidity is fairly easy, but keeping it from immediately recombining is hard. There's several ongoing research projects trying to improve this, without much luck that I've seen. Assuming it can be solved, it's a bit of a technological Holy Grail; as being able to efficiently dehumidify air is the key to making evaporative coolers work in environments that would otherwise be too humid, leading to much more efficient air conditioning.Sharp's device may indeed be splitting some water, but as I doubt they've solved the recombination issue and put it into a consumer device, any claim as to a positive effect from it is probably bogus.

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 30, 2015, 03:53:14 pm
content: The aim supposedly is to put hydroxide in the air for much the same reason as ozone, but with less human toxicity and damage to rubber.

author: eneuro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2015, 06:45:24 pm
content: Anyway, I've made custom 10M resistors from... 10x 1M in series following NASA soldering tutorial and... when connected 18W 0.6 meter (60cm) long T8 Fluorescent lamp (neon?) no supprise now i've quite nice night lamp powered from 12V car starter battery using flyback and low power consumption ZVS driverLimited output current is below 1mA, I guess, while when connected in series my HV leds tester mad of 3mm leds in anti-parallel , green LED glows slightly, but fluorescent lamp makes decent light enougth to be quite usefull night lamp, since it must be very low power consumption and quite efficient light source, since fluorescent lamp has room temperature for a long time and nice soft white light to create some dark, but still make things in the room visible.I wonder, what can be forward voltage of this 60cm length 18W T8 fluorescent lamp which cost at local market < $2 - 80V ?However, even we have flyback current is limited by two 10M resistors still a few milimeters sparks available, so now, while I checked that this output HV current is quite low even in short circuit, while green LED made very small amount of light when connected in series to this current limited flyback output and we still have decent sparks, it looks like it could be usable in negative ions (anions) generator, so I will try connect HV DC+ via one of 10M resistors to huge metal object (fireplace) in the room and flyback HV DC- via second 10M to sharp edges of stainless needles to create negative ions a few meters avay from HV DC+ grounded steel object and we'll see if any good anions will flow in the room to hidden in the bottom steel link around room connected to this steel made fireplace