Earth Engine permanent magnet power generator - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: alsetalokin4017
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 13, 2019, 03:19:07 pm
content: QuoteThis one's a hoot. They have a factory, they are giving demonstrations, they supposedly have "Earth Engines" installed and running at several locations. The main man is a fellow called Dennis Danzik and they have a bunch of seemingly experienced people on staff.And there is more.I would really like to know what members here think of this. Danzik has an interesting history.... This is a bigtime operation, not some little YouTube tinkerer with a wrench and a fake light bulb. And it's not like audiophoolery either, where any expensive effects are "really there you just aren't sensitive and have a tin ear".... I mean the claim is 25 kW output with no input, running for three years.... that's not your usual YouTube "free energy" scam entertainment claim.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 13, 2019, 03:37:47 pm
content: Quote from: alsetalokin4017 on April 13, 2019, 03:19:07 pmIndeed.http://bankrupt.com/misc/wyb16-20002-245.pdfSo at leasthismotivation for being involved in this upscale scam is easy to understand...

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 13, 2019, 04:08:32 pm
content: It's the same old bullshit, just scaled up.

author: alsetalokin4017
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 13, 2019, 04:50:31 pm
content: Scaled up is right.QuoteI think this deserves more attention than the typical entertainment audiophoolery or YouTube motor-generator-lightbulb trick. There is either some bigtime fraudery underway here (probability > 0.99999...) OR the end of the world as we know it energy-wise (probability so small as to be negligible.)Are there any forum members nearby any of the supposed installations, like in Las Vegas NV USA or Scottsdale AZ USA? They had a demonstration in Austin TX a few months ago but I was not aware of this at that time, or I certainly would have gone to take a look.

author: Deodand2014
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 14, 2019, 12:30:04 am
content: Sounds like a 21st Century version of J. E. W. Keely's scam from the 19th Century, Wikipedia has a reasonable article on him.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Ernst_Worrell_Keely

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 14, 2019, 07:06:09 am
content: Quote from: Deodand2014 on April 14, 2019, 12:30:04 amThank you; I had not come across that story yet. Impressively, Keely kept his scam going for more than 25 years, and seems to have lived off the funding from patrons and investors during much of that time.Let's see how long his modern-day disciples can keep their scheme going. They are off to a good start, by announcing that they will delay any patent applications and rely on trade secrets...

author: Towger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 14, 2019, 08:14:07 am
content: 25 years is good going. My local charlatans got to 16 years as an actual company:https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steorn

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 14, 2019, 12:25:52 pm
content: Wait. Wait, wait.All plastic, see-through motor? It's not Orbo, is it?Tim

author: donotdespisethesnake
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 14, 2019, 02:03:24 pm
content: I guess the biggest difference to other "magnet motor" scams is the size, nearly 3000 kg. For $10k, you get a small amount of scrap metal.They make so many bogus claims, like it doesn't use up finite resources. So rare earth magnets are in infinite supply?From the webshite :QuoteSo ignoring the gobbledygook (and there is a lot of that), it's a pulse motor?I recall that Steorn also engaged "independent consultants" to write a report, and not much came of that. A fundamental mistake of these schemes is to attempt a proof, instead of just collecting believers and their dollars.

author: Cyberdragon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 14, 2019, 02:32:01 pm
content: No, the magnets are rechargeable they say.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 14, 2019, 06:27:34 pm
content: The sad if not surprising part is legislators and a congressman being gullible enough to visit.I don't know what it is about the concept "you cannot get something for nothing" that some people have such a difficult time understanding.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 14, 2019, 06:42:02 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on April 14, 2019, 06:27:34 pmWell, they were coming from the "FreedomWorks" conference, after all...

author: Cyberdragon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 14, 2019, 08:00:54 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on April 14, 2019, 06:27:34 pmTo them, they do seem to get something from nothing. It's called taxes.

author: benbradley
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 30, 2019, 04:39:33 am
content: This other little article I posted in the thread linked below had piqued my interest, because I wondered what could possibly be new about permanent magnet motors, the same little motors used in toys and portable cassette players ...BUT NO, that's NOT what the article means by "permanent magnet motor." Redefinition of terms is done by (among others) cults, and is also called "loading the language."https://www.eevblog.com/forum/dodgy-technology/perpetual-commotion-new-discovery-permanent-magnet-motors/msg1970945/#msg1970945Likewise, a "power generator" might legitimately use a permanent magnet as part of its operation, but having looked at this for a few seconds, it claims to be "powered" solely by permanent magnets.I wonder if I could attach some masses to a few engine valve springs and get investors interested in my "valve spring power generator."Quote"I am not a crook." - Richard M. Nixon

author: mtdoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 18, 2019, 05:34:52 pm
content: Surprisingly objective article on this in yesterday’s WSJ

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 18, 2019, 07:17:24 pm
content: Unfortunately it seems it's behind a paywall so all we get is a fairly useless teaser paragraph.

author: mtdoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 18, 2019, 09:18:55 pm
content: Sorry. Here ya go.

author: benbradley
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2019, 03:32:32 am
content: Oh Noes, he's in the Wall Street Journal!https://www.wsj.com/articles/one-mans-unlikely-quest-to-power-the-world-with-magnets-11558029179WSJ isn't giving me the whole story (in more ways that one, I'm sure), I've exhausted my free stories for the month or whatever. But I don't care, it doesn't matter. It's all the same crap here that the reporter bought into.It must be time to go to bed, I just typed in all caps on the WSJ's Facebook post for this article.

author: benbradley
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2019, 03:36:47 am
content: Quote from: mtdoc on May 18, 2019, 05:34:52 pmoops.Regardless, maybe someone can show this FB poster the way ..."Laws of Physics are just fine here. The machine drains magnetism from magnets to generate power and will eventually exhaust itself (i.e., non-perpetual motion). “Earth machines” like this aren’t anything new, but have yet to be developed enough for a practical real world application. Hopefully this guy has something."

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2019, 05:11:59 am
content: How do you drain magnetism from magnets? As far as I know, magnets just do not behave that way, magnetic fields are not stored energy, you have to put energy into a magnet (by moving it) in order to extract energy from the system.Even if it did work as described, it would be an energy storage system, not an energy generating system. You can't get more energy out than you put in.

author: dirtcooker
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2019, 06:47:22 pm
content: Quote from: alsetalokin4017 on April 13, 2019, 03:19:07 pm

author: Futureman
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: September 21, 2019, 03:30:34 pm
content: This is the real deal! As a matter of fact I know a couple (Ex-Siemens Engineer and his wife) who visited the Inductance Energy Corporation in Scottsdale/Arizona recently in August 2019!They got to see the "Crystal Machine" and another "Earth Engine" running! They also were able to ask a lot of questions.I am sure most of you engineers are familiar with the Halbach array? If not you might bring your knowledge up to speed:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halbach_arrayThe company managed to magnetized the magnets in such a way, that the magnets have an inherent non-uniform asymetrical field.Also they incorperated into the system is a flywheel! (900kg)The used high quality ball bearings are form SKF (Germany).https://www.skf.com/ch/de/index.htmlI guess the ball bearings must be replaced one day? But the magnets should work for a very long time without any loss of magnetization.The system shall use an input energy four the control electronic of about 200W. Output max. 25kWA smaller 7.5kW system is in work! A solar charge controller is used to charge 8 x 48V Batteris with a capacity of 60Ah = 23040WhInteresting is that currently two other companies have working magnet motors on sale:https://gaia-energy.org/muammer-yildiz-willkommen-bei-gaia/Mr. Muammer Yildiz who showed his running magnet motor on the Geneva Inventor Exhebition in 2013:He was afraid to let the motor run longer than about 15 minutes! Since it could happen that one of his 500 magnets could break off on block the system, due to vibrations!According to the Gaia organisation that problem is solved, but in the recent test run in July 2019 the shaft, of the new 7.5kW magnetmotor and a coupled electric generator, broke just after 7 hours run time.Here is my guess that they have not used a flexible coupling!? And again the vibration snapped the weakest part.Also the company "Infinity SAV" based in South Korea has an interesting 10kW System to represent:So I would think not all claims for magnetic motors are fake, it is probaly technology we are able now to invent and engineer, due to the fact that the science of magnetic fieldsand properties of selden earth materials are better understood.I just recently came accross this additional SolisWorks or Inventor Software for magnetic flux simulation:So have fun discussing this topic further, I am looking forward for positive inputs or links to further dive into "Magnetism"!

author: maginnovision
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2019, 05:37:05 pm
content: Positive input is definitely what these need.

author: RandallMcRee
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2019, 06:10:01 pm
content: Well lets not forget that there is a huge amount of energy stored in today's neodymium magnets.It did not come from nowhere, nor the earth, but was placed there by the manufacturer, usually in China (so probably said energy came from coal).In addition to the potential energy in those magnets there can also be huge mechanical energy created just by arranging magnets in clever ways. This energy can be released simply by changing physical placement (think about the energy created and released by allowing two magnets to smash together). Then like a real spring the energy needs to be replaced somehow.If these "motors" have found a way to dribble out that energy you can certainly spin something for a very long period of time.That does not make it perpetual energy, just clever.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2019, 06:15:58 pm
content: Quote from: RandallMcRee on September 21, 2019, 06:10:01 pmThere's no energy "stored" in magnets, magnetism is not energy, it just enables the transfer and conversion of energy. Think about it, you can put a coil of wire around the strongest magnet in the world and it will just sit there, if you want to generated electricity you have to move the magnet or coil relative to one another or you can put energy into the coil and it or the magnet will move relative to one another.You cannot get something for nothing, ever! If you think you are getting more energy out of something than you are putting in, then you are measuring something incorrectly.

author: daqq
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2019, 06:21:00 pm
content: Futureman: Those look great! They should get them independently by some serious organization, such as the UL, TUV, or even send one device to Dave here, to validate their claims.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2019, 06:23:14 pm
content: Quote from: daqq on September 21, 2019, 06:21:00 pmThey won't, they know Dave (or any similarly competent engineer) would rip their claims to shreds and point out all the holes in their ideas.

author: maginnovision
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2019, 06:25:47 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on September 21, 2019, 06:23:14 pmHeresy! These aren't just ideas anymore they're real things! He saw them and knows they're real. No need to check them out now just buy them.

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 22, 2019, 03:02:00 am
content: Quote from: james_s on September 21, 2019, 06:15:58 pmThe energy density of a field is:\[ e = \frac{B^2}{2 \mu_0} \]Integrate over space to get the energy stored in the magnet.Another way to put it: the magnet has a large hysteresis loop in its B-H curve; the area of this curve corresponds to the energy dissipated in going around said loop. If you used it as a transformer core, that would be its core loss every cycle.I think it's going to be a "what happens when you short a charged capacitor into a discharged capacitor" situation, i.e., half the energy goes into actual heat, the other half goes into energy in the field. The magnetic version of charge is flux, which is conserved, but the energy is divided.The funny thing is, perpetual motion types most likely aren't clever enough to figure out how to extract incremental energy from a magnet. I'm not even quite sure how you would do that; doing it passively would be difficult (demagnetizing it with an electromagnet will only consume more power), maybe you'd resort to heating it above Curie temp, demagnetizing a bit at a time.But you need to be careful that you aren't using it as a boring old heat engine -- there is a strong tempco and some recoverable magnetization as long as T < Tc, and this variation could be used to repeatedly convert change in temperature into change in flux density.Tim

author: DTJ
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 22, 2019, 03:18:17 am
content: Quote from: james_s on September 21, 2019, 06:15:58 pmI thought rare earth magnets were manufactured by placing the 'rare earth mix' in strong magnetic field and then the powder is pressed and heated/cooled to 'store' the magnetic field.I may be wrong but ff this is correct then energy is stored - or converted because you don't get nothing for nothing. I agree magnetism is not energy a magnet needs to perform work in order for energy to be expended.

author: iMo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 22, 2019, 04:58:57 am
content: Magnetic energy density of an neodymium based magnet is around 400000 J/m3 (wikipedia).

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 22, 2019, 05:24:19 am
content: Quote from: james_s on September 21, 2019, 06:15:58 pmIn addition to the previous answers, consider that in order to magnetize something you have to rearrange the internal magnetic domains so they are all aligned in the same direction. It takes a certain amount of work to perform this realignment as the domains are reluctant to move and you have to put some energy in to the system to achieve it. Similarly, if a permanent magnet stays magnetized it is internally holding on to the energy used to magnetize it.That said, the stored energy is not a practical source of power since there is no easy way to get it back.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 22, 2019, 05:49:46 am
content: Quote from: imo on September 22, 2019, 04:58:57 amThat's not a lot. Heating oil has 4E10 J/m³, i.e. a factor of 100 000 more, if I got my math right.So even if one could design a device which "extracts" that energy from the magnets, things wouldn't look so hot for the "10 kW" or "25 kW" devices mentioned in the posts above...

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 22, 2019, 06:14:38 am
content: Indeed. And really, we're just arguing about facially false statements, without escaping from the already false premises these people use. The only real solution is to simply point and laugh. Don't comment, don't share. Gently remind others that, yes, it is as dumb and antiscientific and too-good-to-be as it sounds. That's it. Actually trying to enter into an argument based upon a false premise is more disingenuous to yourself, than the premise is to others.Tim

author: iMo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 22, 2019, 04:38:06 pm
content: Quote from: ebastler on September 22, 2019, 05:49:46 amUnless they bought a piece of "magnetar" off ebay, with the magnetic energy density of 40 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 J/m3 ..

author: billpennock
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: August 10, 2020, 04:00:19 pm
content: I know this is late but...I attended a demonstration in Scottsdale as part of Reason Weekend last year. I was extremely skeptical for all the reasons people have posted here. After the general demonstration I went back and got a very detailed demonstration starting with a very small demonstration model of the principle and working up to the large engine. I was trying to find reasons to believe it was a hoax. If it is it is a really good one, nothing like the 19th century sound wave thing that is alluded to here. I have not seen it in a real situation powering say, a pump, with no power coming from any other source. If it is a hoax it might be that it can't carry the load that they say it can. There was going to be the installation in Las Vegas within a week or so of our demonstration. I haven't read all the discussion here but I am looking for proof that the installation in Vegas and another one they were supposed to be putting into a pumping site in a remote area of the north west are actually working. I do not believe this is something to be dismissed as easily as one might think although it does fit the "too good to be true, probably is" model.

author: billpennock
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: August 10, 2020, 04:03:51 pm
content: Right because believers in individual liberty are all stupid. Seriously? That's your argument.

author: billpennock
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: August 10, 2020, 04:07:35 pm
content: In the demo I went to it was connected to a generator and the output was measured.

author: billpennock
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: August 10, 2020, 04:10:10 pm
content: Nice to have someone who actually looked at it comment rather than people who simple dismiss it with no investigation.

author: schmitt trigger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2020, 04:27:23 pm
content: I think a caption in the second page of the linked WSJ's article sums it all up:"In the other hand if the Earth Engine is an illusion,it's a spectacularly elaborate one, with no clear way of paying off."Bold letters from the original quote.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2020, 11:50:48 pm
content: The only investigation necessary is to find claims that something puts out more energy than it consumes, if that is being claimed then it is a hoax, period. I don't have to waste time digging into it, the onus of proof is on the person making extraordinary claims to offer extraordinary evidence that it works and explain how.

author: fourfathom
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 11, 2020, 12:58:42 am
content: Quote from: james_s on August 10, 2020, 11:50:48 pmThey don't even have to explain how, just prove that it works. How hard could that be?

author: Circlotron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 11, 2020, 02:52:10 am
content: Quote from: imo on September 22, 2019, 04:38:06 pmHmm... even if you could perform nuclear fusion on 1m^3 of platinum and completely turn it in to energy (zero matter left) it would only produce 1 935 000 000 000 000 000 000 Joules. That's smaller by a factor of 20,672. As an aside, what is the shipping cost of 1m^3 of that magnetar?

author: daqq
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 11, 2020, 05:38:49 am
content: Quote from: billpennock on August 10, 2020, 04:00:19 pmDemonstrations for public are all well and good, but borderline useless as a source of data, mostly due to the fact that the demonstrator/inventor/claimer controls everything, sets up the measurements and has every possibility of cheating.I'll believe it once it passes through a recognised, independent test organisation, such as TUV, UL or any number of serious public entities. Or even send one over to Dave. Or, you know, once it's actually on sale, as an actual product that you can buy.And no, the 'Handing it over to one of these diabolical organisations will give away the trade secret!' is just a bullshit excuse, since the moment someone can actually buy the product it will go public anyway.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 12, 2020, 06:16:40 am
content: Quote from: daqq on August 11, 2020, 05:38:49 amIndeed. I once saw a man demonstrate sawing a woman in half, and afterward she climbed out of the box apparently intact. It was quite convincing, as were many of the other illusions he performed. Does that mean magic is real? Of course not, but it was a convincing demonstration none the less.The trade secret part is always the same too as you say, of course any amazing new device is going to get a teardown on youtube the moment it is available for anyone to get their hands on.Laws of energy aside, many of us are quick to dismiss these things because it's the same old tired routine time after time after time. You start to recognize the spiel and you know what's coming even before it is said.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 12, 2020, 06:59:39 am
content: Quote from: billpennock on August 10, 2020, 04:00:19 pmQuick google of the names here, and confirmed, both the inventor Dennis Danzik and Bill Pennock are both donors to the Reason Foundation.https://www.thefreelibrary.com/CARRYING+THE+TORCH+OF+FREEDOM.-a0625500223Kinda reminds me of that Hapbee thing where all the people who invested in it go to the same conference:

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 12, 2020, 07:01:41 am
content: Quote from: james_s on August 12, 2020, 06:16:40 amThat's the thing, these thingsnevership. Because once they do then they get torn down and the scam is exposed.So these project always end up in perpetual development and/or "just about to ship".

author: Haenk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 12, 2020, 08:51:18 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on August 12, 2020, 07:01:41 amNot to forget: Requesting even more investor money, to build a bigger, even more impressive, one.