Need Help selecting New Pick And Place Machine - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: chris2006
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2019, 07:37:20 am
content: Hi AllI currently have a TVM920 pick and place machine thats working OK with alot of checking but is just too slowI am currently looking at the KAYO-1706-3DSG and the neoden 7 machines but would like to know your thoughts, I cant afford the most expensive machines on the market but at the same time I dont want to put money on something that will only last a short time.

author: pisoiu
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2019, 08:38:22 am
content: I went to the same path some time ago, but dropped it, decided to build one instead.About kayo, you will not be able to purchase from China directly, afaik they have some distributor in France and they sell in Europe only through them. Presumably better support but significant increase in price.Other similar options can be Borey and Yingxing, they have some pretty fast models, SMT660, SMT880...

author: chris2006
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2019, 01:26:26 pm
content: HiThanks for the replyYes thats correct the KAYO can only be purchased from the agent in FranceI will check the SMT660, SMT880 to see how they compare

author: SMTech
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2019, 01:37:00 pm
content: Neoden in the UK is currently represented byhttp://www.ams-electronics.co.ukI would think given they only cost 10K that they have one in stock/a showroom you can go and look at. Maybe if you're lucky they &/or something similar might even be showing a machine or two at WNIE in September.Given you have a TVM920 you should have some idea what to expect from this kind of machine, the addition of vision and better drive systems than super flimsy belts (on most options?) should be a step up at least but frankly my low opinion of all these machines hasn't changed much. The previous Neoden seller in the UK told me they sold 6, and refunded 3 because they simply weren't up to the task, much like larger Chinese reflow ovens the build quality is often low and very inconsistent, machines from the same batch can be completely different.Grove have thishttps://www.grovesales.co.uk/dima-hybrid-hp-110-pick-place/,DIMA are now part of Nordson dispensing so question marks over some spares perhaps but quite a nice machine and if its led a nice life should be no trouble.

author: chris2006
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2019, 05:17:18 pm
content: That's good informationI suppose what I really need to ask is should I buy a good brand second hand machine or go for a new Chinese machineIf used what would be the best to go for apart from dima

author: jmelson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2019, 07:24:19 pm
content: Quote from: chris2006 on August 01, 2019, 05:17:18 pmWell, I did this almost 12 years ago, and it was a good choice for me. (There were none of these Chinese machines available, then.)The used machines, if selected carefully, are often way more robust and and faster than the Chinese machines. My ancient Philips CSM84 has 3 nozzles, which I have loaded with 3 different sizes, for small passives, SOIC chips and large FPGA-type chips. The older machines are often really robust and have few parts that will wear out. My CSM84 does 3000+ part/hour, and only slows down for the largest parts, which is has to take over to the mechanical alignment station. My machine didn't come with vision.Jon

author: SMTech
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2019, 10:43:01 pm
content: There seems to be some fairly vocal support for the various machines sold by Yamaha, they made an awful lot of them, many of them are rebadged as Philips/Assembleon, (others?) there seems to be a lot of spares and knowledge out there to use for support and the older feeders are extensively ripped off in China. Do bear in mind there is a reason those feeder designs are no longer deployed on a modern Yamaha however.I have only rarely spotted an Essemtec listed online, never seen an Autotronik - both like a Dima HP or ATOZ are good fits for lower volume or starting out.I really like Europlacer machines and there's been a few of their smaller "flexys" machines knocking about recently, this wasn't a hugely popular platform from what I can tell as it doesn't accept what I consider their key feature, the "Mass Tape Trolley" only the much more expensive "gun feeders".I'd be wary of old Jukis as they "burn" old platforms, and also probably avoid Siemens as they will often have lived very hard lives and like Juki have a rep for throwing the baby out with the bathwater when they bring in new models.I haven't spotted many reliable sources of affordable 2nd user machines in the UK, if you find any in your search, sharing what you find could be interesting.That I know of:Shawline - maintains a list of the machines on their books, you can see prices with a login but expect any quoted figure to be higher once they add some training and delivery.Evolvi SMT (which I think is a division of ETEK-Europe or at least they had some kind of relationship)Grove - who will sell/resell pretty much anything. Not sure you can expect support after the purchase from themPMTechDetech Europe often have some refurbs, this can include things like the famous QuadIV a very robust little machine, that seems like it gets very complicated if things go wrong, lots of cards and settings and weird error codes. (check out peoples experiences on here or the number of "help!" style messages on smtnet) I get the impression that Miraes can have quite frustrating software.Elite7 often have some refurbished SamsungsAdoptSMT have 100s of machines from across Europe including a Paraquda like ours if the website is to be believed.Twentech,http://www.twentech.com/machines.htmlhttps://blundell.co.uk/pre-owned/That PA510 a fairly decent little machine by all accounts, quotes I had for new ones a while back were higher than I expected.http://www.intelligentdrives.com/imp.phpare UK made machines, slower&more expensive than the Chinese ones, but cheaper than other new machines. You could get a good idea of what they are like by talking to one of the several companies that sprang up to make little boards to go with RasPi's as several seemed to start with one of these.Anyone who sells new machines will sometimes take in an older machine in PEX to sweeten the deal, they don't really want them so they come up too.Of course the best bet is be there in the right place at the right time to buy it straight off the user for much. Selling machines is a pain of course which is why brokers get involved.

author: mrpackethead
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2019, 10:12:22 am
content: Quote from: SMTech on August 01, 2019, 10:43:01 pmYeah, becuase the new machines run significnatly faster and the CL feeders woud'nt keep up. They also added lots of smarts. However the CL feeders are still widely avaiable and run just fine at rates of up to 4 picks per second. The new machines, with the new feeders will do 12+ picks / sec.I agree, i'd avoid old jukis, they are hardwork to fix and parts are scarce.I would suggest getting hold of John at Ksunsmt. They source and refurb machiens out of china. Had some great dealing with him. Awsome support for my yamahas, that he did'tn even sell me.

author: chris2006
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2019, 11:45:27 am
content: HiThanks for the info I will contact KsunsmtSo I have decided to either go for a KAYO or a second hand yamahaI just worry that the KAYO looks great in the video's as did the TVM920 but once received I was abit disappointedWhen looking for a Yamaha what would be the best model to look out for ?

author: joaomatos
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: August 03, 2019, 12:31:22 am
content: I had the same question a few months.I was also pending to the Kayo, but now they have an EU distributor in France, which makes buying it a bit more costly.After some research went with an SMT 660, which is a very similar clone of the Kayo anyway.Same motors, same feeders, pretty much only the software should be different.After asking, the guys selling the SMT put me in contact with an existing local customer close to me,and he tells me the machine hardware is very solid and that he's been building hundreds of boardsand is pretty happy with it.Also a big plus for me is that the software is all .NET, it's obfuscated but can easily be decompiled and compiled again.So easy to make changes and customise if needed.

author: mrpackethead
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2019, 01:14:08 am
content: Quote from: chris2006 on August 02, 2019, 11:45:27 amIt depends what you are going to be placing. I've got 2 x YV100-ii's ( approx 2000 vintage ).. they place down to 0402 and can also place pretty much all the IC's i need as well. If they are under 20x20mm you'll be good. Not so good for big complex connectors or very large IC's. Iv'e recently added a YV100-xg to the line, it will do down to 0201, but i just added the machine so i can have another 100 odd slots in my line.. Most of my boards go through all three machines now, so i dont' ahve to swap reels.I'd consider a machine with <40,000 hours on it. They are good for 100,000 hours, which is a LOT of placement. When placing jellybeans, and all is going well, i would get about 8000 parts/hour.Don't overlook that you'll need a good air source, power, and space, and that they are heavy ( 1500kg ). And dont' treat paste as an after thought.I have two 920's at a local school, that uses them for teaching, and you will be in a different world.

author: chris2006
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2019, 11:33:59 am
content: HiI wouldn't be using anything smaller than 0603 components and the biggest MCU I use is the ATtiny44A-SOIC-14I need something with around 60 feeders and conveyorI need something that will do 500+ pcbs per week ( 50 components on each PCB ) mostly 0805 and SS14 DiodesI have 3 phase available using a generatorPrice range no higher than 20k

author: chris2006
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2019, 08:30:49 am
content: Hi mrpacketheadCan you tell me how does the YV100 2 compare to the Yamaha YV100 XG, is there is a big difference in speed ?I see one uses Dos and the other windows operating systemsWould you recommend paying the extra for the YV100 XG ?Thanks for your help

author: mrpackethead
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2019, 07:47:22 pm
content: the xg is ever so slightly faster, but only 10% if that. Its got better vision. The main diff is that it will place 0201 parts, and it is newer.. mY yv100-IIs are relaible and keep going, and are doing the job that i need them to.. the xg was a good opportunity, for me to buy, but if another yv100-ii came up at the right price and condition, i'd probably buy it, and add it to the line, so i had more no swap reels.

author: chris2006
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2019, 11:14:02 pm
content: I'm leaning towards the YV100 2 after watching a few videos, the build quality looks great.Just 2 questionsIs the Dos system reliable ?How does the setup compare to the TVM920 ?

author: mrpackethead
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2019, 10:22:16 am
content: Quote from: chris2006 on August 05, 2019, 11:14:02 pmThey are solid. You will have to do maintaince. You need to make sure your air is dry and clean. You need to take the time to set it up properly. Be prepared to invest some time into it. But if you do, it will look after you.QuoteIts very reliable. its just not immediately intuiative. I've never had it 'crash' on me, and i've had my machines running now for over 2500 hours. Its osmetimes just a little slow.QuoteIts a matter of learnign how it works.. once you've learned its easy!

author: SMTech
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2019, 11:05:36 am
content: For clean dry air, the cheapest solution I found when I was looking was a dessicant dryer made by Walker Filtration and sold by IATT, they sold the unit and all the filter modules to go with it. There seemed to be a huge range of prices charged for the same thing (they are all suspiciously similar), these were 1/2 what some people wanted to charge.That said there are a few sellers on eBay who sell older compressors that may have a dryer unit bolted on, depends what you already have. Rotary is is better for continuous delivery.Of course your local pneumatics supplier may also be able to help and if they're the friendly sort might find you something just right for the price you feel you want to pay.

author: mrpackethead
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2019, 08:11:19 pm
content: Quote from: SMTech on August 06, 2019, 11:05:36 amI bought a broken dryer unit for $100. It's rerfridgeration unit and fan had both failed. Clearly run by people with no concern. The cooling tank and the radiator were both ok, and it did'tn leak air, so i was pretty sure i'd get it to go. A new refridgeration compressor was about $150, the fan another $100. an afternoons work, and another $80 to get it all gassed up. Super dry air. only maintaince required is a period dust out.

author: chris2006
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2019, 11:56:26 pm
content: I have an Air Dryer and 200 litre compressor for my TVM920 so thats all sortedI think the Yamaha is getting a bit old for me and worry about the time setting it up as its an operating system that I have never used , need to make sure I make the correct choice.The SMT880 or the KAYO might be the best option for me when stepping up from a TVM920 ?How does the SMT880 compare to the KAYO ?

author: SMTech
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2019, 12:18:24 pm
content: Is there anyone who has seen all of them? I'm pretty sure I've seen at least one other user with a union jack icon who has SMT660/880s on this forum, could be worth trying to see theirs. Beyond that I would try and watch every video of any of them operating, several brands also seem to have training videos on Youtube which should give you a good idea of the software and how many hoops you have to jump through (some pretty odd step in some compared to a typical machine). I don't suppose there's much difference between any of them physically, although I think perhaps on some models, you might find some of them actually have a toolchanger. Charmhigh perhaps?If you are feeling brave there is also Faroad from PMTech, its a Chinese machine with an almost normal looking spec and high quoted speed but potentially with some level of UK support... although that assumes anyone actually buys one.

author: 48X24X48X
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2019, 02:41:43 am
content: I'm heading off to NEPCON 2019 in Shenzhen end of this month. Zhengbang, Kayo, Charmhigh and bigger guys will be there. I'm looking for a new machine to replace my SmallSMT machine. Will take pictures and some video if possible. Did ask to bring my own PCB to test but they won't allow during exhibition unfortunately. It's always best to see the machine yourself before buying.

author: mrpackethead
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2019, 04:35:13 am
content: Quote from: 48X24X48X on August 10, 2019, 02:41:43 amWhy do you want to replace the SmallSMT machine?

author: 48X24X48X
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2019, 04:55:55 am
content: Quote from: mrpackethead on August 10, 2019, 04:35:13 amI'm leaving that to your imagination.

author: Mangozac
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2019, 09:49:23 pm
content: Quote from: SMTech on August 01, 2019, 10:43:01 pmQuote from: mrpackethead on August 02, 2019, 10:12:22 amWhen you guys refer to "old Jukis" how old are we talking? Just non-current models?Quote from: chris2006 on August 02, 2019, 11:45:27 amChris2006, have you made any further progress on this? I'm looking for a cost effective way to set up a line for a similar kind of volume to you. Used equipment can still be very expensive and everything I've seen about the Kayo machines looks promising and quite professional. I'll continue researching but if I press forward with them I will fly up to Shenzhen and inspect in person.

author: Reckless
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2019, 09:43:03 am
content: I have a number of Universal Instruments machines for sale in Chicago at very reasonable prices. They are tanks that last forever and easy to work on. Also have a Yamaha YV-112, 2 MPM UP2500s, Vitronics 5 zone oven currently for sale.Personally, I'd stay far away from all chinese pick and place machines. I almost bought 460/660 model but tracked down users and they all had issues with them right out of the box. Also their software and firmware are usually lacking. I had very high hopes for them but have never found chinese equipment to last or function the way I needed them to.

author: mrpackethead
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2019, 10:25:22 pm
content: I have high hopes for the 'chinese' machines.. Maybe one day they will actually get there. Right now, everyone who I know who started out with low cost Chinese machines, has ended up replacing them with either new or used more mainstream machines... Once you start making more than 20 or 30 boards a week, you need fault rates that are really low, or you spend all day fixing them. At the super low end, the econoimics also maybe do not stack up. If you are making 1 or 2 of a board, a decent manual setup often will beat a automatic machine to getting the job done, after you've done the setup.

author: Reckless
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2019, 11:10:31 pm
content: After I got my $3000 Fuji chip shooter these chinese machines look like a joke. I can't ever see them doing turret heads properly. Piano style heads just don't feel the same now. I might be spoiled. Everything I do is 0402, thousands per panel. When laying down chips nothing like a gatling gun to give a feeling of satisfaction. We do ~100 panels per day.

author: mrpackethead
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2019, 06:31:25 am
content: Yeah, those rotary heads do look cool. But linear heads can be just as fast.

author: Mangozac
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2019, 11:40:19 am
content: Quote from: mrpackethead on August 27, 2019, 10:25:22 pmTo be clear though, there are cheap Chinese machines and there are higher end Chinese machines. Which specific models are you referring to? Stuff like the Neodens and desktop machines?