Throttle attenuator for an EV - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / projects

author: quince
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: July 21, 2024, 11:17:22 am
content: Removed.

author: moffy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 21, 2024, 11:31:01 am
content: Is the accelerator position proportional to speed or say motor current/power? I'm not sure how that works in an EV.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 21, 2024, 11:53:28 am
content: There are throttle pedal adjusters, specific for a vehicle type, that act to change the law the sensor provides to the ECU. They read the 2 signals, and then use a small MCU to read the 2 pedal position voltages, one rising from 0V to Vref (typically 5V) as the pedal goes from released to flat to the floor, while the other is the exact opposite, so that the ECU can do sanity checking and prevent the runaway accelerator thing. They normally are going to do the opposite, providing a higher presented position according to some curve, but are quite capable of also limiting the max pedal position shown to the ECU instead, acting as power limiter.

author: SteveThackery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 21, 2024, 12:49:47 pm
content: Quote from: moffy on July 21, 2024, 11:31:01 amNeither, almost certainly. It will just be one more input to the ECU, which will no doubt have sophisticated algorithms determining the motor current at that instance. I imagine all sorts of variables will be assessed: throttle pedal position, direction of movement and speed of movement; battery charge level; battery temperature; motor temperature; road speed; driving mode (sport, economy, etc); traction control setting; etc, etc.

author: SteveThackery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 21, 2024, 12:51:12 pm
content: There's no chance that I would mess with such a safety critical sub-system. Also, it surely will invalidate your insurance.

author: BrokenYugo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 21, 2024, 12:56:22 pm
content: Thinner sole shoes? Eco mode? An electronic throttle pedal is not something I'd mess with.

author: langwadt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 21, 2024, 12:56:32 pm
content: Quote from: SteveThackery on July 21, 2024, 12:49:47 pmhttps://www.reddit.com/r/teslamotors/comments/inzuhz/model_3_factfinding_accelerator_pedal_position_vs/

author: SteveThackery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 21, 2024, 08:17:31 pm
content: Quote from: quince on July 21, 2024, 06:59:07 pmSeriously? The ECU ignores battery temperature and charge level? And the driving mode?? It's beyond 20-30% throttle when these really start to matter, surely!Do you have a good reference book or online source where I can learn more about it? I hope you aren't offended by my scepticism - it's just that I cannot conceive of any electric vehicle that doesn't monitor, and manage, the temperature of its batteries. This is burn-like-a-bastard lithium we're talking about.

author: SteveThackery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 21, 2024, 08:23:44 pm
content: Quote from: quince on July 21, 2024, 06:46:10 pmLegal doesn't mean it won't invalidate your insurance!These are completely different issues. At the very least you WILL be required to tell the insurance company. They are so uptight these days you basically have to tell them about everything.

author: inse
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2024, 05:49:02 am
content: “I will slow down the acceleration of my car“ - maybe this gives you a bonus…

author: SteveThackery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2024, 08:53:56 am
content: Quote from: quince on July 22, 2024, 05:02:57 amIt isn't obvious, although I'm pleased we are of like mind. Time on various car and motorcycle forums has shown me that lots of people don't notify their insurance company when making modifications.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2024, 09:00:45 am
content: Quote from: SteveThackery on July 21, 2024, 08:17:31 pmIt isn't that it doesn't monitor these and apply limits where needed, just that they are not factored in when determining throttle response in normal conditions. I'm sure that once you're in turtle mode at 1% SoC, some limits will be coming in to play, but I'd expect these would just be limits applied at the end of he control chain.

author: langwadt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2024, 10:53:14 am
content: do you fly out the window every time you hit the brakes? if not then apply the same finesse to the throttle pedal

author: SteveThackery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2024, 10:58:58 am
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on July 22, 2024, 09:00:45 amDo you have a source for the above information? So far it's just an assertion. I want to learn more.Also, it is surely going to include the driving mode in its calculation, because that is the driver's primary control over the throttle response.

author: Andy Chee
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2024, 11:18:32 am
content: Quote from: quince on July 21, 2024, 11:17:22 amSurely there is an existing software setting for this? rather than relying on hardware sensor trickery.

author: robert.rozee
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2024, 11:31:24 am
content: i doubt that a driver would be much aware of thepositionof a foot throttle, but instead be more sensitive to the increasingpressurerequired as the throttle is pressed further down.as such, my first approach would be to add a simple pullup spring, so that far more force is required once the throttle gets closer to the floor. you could even go so far as multiple springs with linkages so that as you get closer to the full throttle additional springs come into play, although i doubt this will prove necessary.cheers,rob :-)

author: SteveThackery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2024, 11:46:08 am
content: That is the best suggestion yet. Nice one.

author: SteveThackery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2024, 11:49:37 am
content: Quote from: Andy Chee on July 22, 2024, 11:18:32 amExactly! On my motorcycles it's called the "riding mode" and it alters the mapping between the twistgrip position and the throttle butterfly opening. It also alters the maximum rate of change of the butterfly's opening.Do EVs not have such a thing?

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2024, 12:52:58 pm
content: Quote from: quince on July 21, 2024, 11:17:22 amSo will my car, and it's not an EV, it's just a small diesel.Stop stomping. Precise control of both (.. all three, in my case) pedals is a basic requirement of driving.

author: BrokenYugo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2024, 01:59:03 pm
content: Quote from: robert.rozee on July 22, 2024, 11:31:24 amI considered that suggestion,but this not being the old steel lever style I worry about wear, binding, outright failure, etc. adding springs to a pedal assembly I assume is made of a minimal amount of nylon.

author: Andy Chee
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2024, 12:03:29 am
content: Quote from: quince on July 22, 2024, 10:50:15 pmJust to clarify, is this a homebrew DIY EV build? Or is this an EV from a global manufacturer?

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2024, 09:17:36 am
content: Can I check my understanding...cars are lethal pieces of machinery, that have killed and injured many peoplehence the cars and their operator and their operation are controlled by many laws, and those laws are enforcedinsurance is a legal requirement, and that requires clear statements that the cars are (or are not) roadworthy and unmodifiedyou have a Chevrolet BOLT EV ?2023?it is difficult to control, either because you cannot control it or because the control setup is too aggressiveyou can pay more to have the car be more controllable. That implies Chevrolet is shipping a car that is, by default, too aggressiveyour solution is to add extra homebrew hardware to the car, directly between the throttle and the rest of the caryour hardware will be temporarily connected using the existing connectorsyour hardware will modify the car's behaviouryour hardware could equally easily make the car's control setup more aggressive rather than less aggressivePoint 6 is difficult to believe.People are more likely to pay extra to have the option of making their car more fun to drive.I believe there is a "hot-rodding" community that makes cars more aggressive and "fun" to drive. See point 10.Such hot-rodding probably invalidates insurance and manufacturer's warranties.If such hot-rodding is detected (e.g. after warranty claim or accident) then the owner has a Big Problem.Being able to remove the evidence of hot-rodding, e.g. using a temporary removable fitting would be advantageous in that respect.Comments?

author: uer166
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2024, 07:19:32 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on July 25, 2024, 09:17:36 amI used to work for a major EV manufacturer in engineering, this entire thread and an assertion that adding a mod board to a pedal control loop is somehow "safe" is absolutely ridiculous. OP: either replace car or get used to the pedal response, the chance of you killing or maiming someone else is way too high.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2024, 07:41:41 pm
content: Quote from: uer166 on July 25, 2024, 07:19:32 pmJust so.I wonder if "quince" has somewhat, ahem, different objectives to the ones he has stated, hence his preference that he doesn't want "Chevrolet BOLT EV" to be searchable viz:Quote from: quince on July 24, 2024, 11:44:36 pm

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2024, 07:05:20 am
content: Quote from: quince on July 26, 2024, 06:03:54 amYou mean you didn't test drive a car before buying it? Strange, and not what I would expect from an engineer.QuoteConclusion: either you are someone that doesn't have the first clue about how components and circuits work, or you are a troll, or both.QuoteThere are all sorts of dangerous and illegal things "all over Amazon".In the UK there are many things which are legal to sell but illegal to operate. I learned that in 1972 w.r.t. some types of radios.I now see such things every day on the roads, andthey kill/injure hundreds of innocent passers by every year.QuoteIs the insurance also expired? The insurance is almost certainly invalidated, so when you hit someone they will suffer the health consequences and financial consequences of not getting a financial settlement.That's selfish in the extreme.This is correct:Quote from: uer166 on July 25, 2024, 07:19:32 pm

author: bookaboo
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2024, 07:53:53 am
content: Quote from: uer166 on July 25, 2024, 07:19:32 pm1000% this.What happens if the mod develops a dry joint, or gets moisture ingress? Doesn't bear thinking about.Besides I can't imagine that a Bolt is uncontrollable off the line at the lights. If that's the case, how would you ever park it?

author: nali
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2024, 09:27:19 am
content: ...or crusty parts from Aliexpress or wherever.I don't really get the logic of the OP requirement. I still want to stomp my pedal but only get 50% power? What happened to the traditional lump of wood under the accelerator method? Or good old fashioned pedal control?

author: Andy Chee
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2024, 09:37:54 am
content: According to wikipedia the 2023 Chevy Bolt sold over 62,000 vehicles in the US.I would imagine that if the accelerator was problematic, we'd be hearing complaints from the other 61,999 Bolt owners.

author: SteveThackery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2024, 09:44:06 am
content: I must concur - as an ex Reliability Engineer, I know that the effort that goes into ensuring the safety and reliability of the control systems is extraordinary. I haven't been involved in EV's, but the systems will have been subject to deep FMEA (failure modes and effects analysis), as well as being engineered as fail-safe. Two-layer sanity checking will probably be built in, and the system will have been comprehensively tested, including electrical stress testing.The idea that some no-brand circuit board from a nameless Chinese factory will have received even a fraction of that attention is..... daft, to put it politely.The mod board has the capability of sendinganythrottle opening* signal into the system. So a bug or glitchmightcause it to send a "pedal is pressed to the floor" signal at any time. Waiting at a stop sign, reversing into a space, etc.Electronics are pretty reliable these days, but the reliability requirements of vehicle control systems is much higher than typical consumer electronics. There is no way that I would install a device like this in such a safety critical system.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2024, 06:16:18 pm
content: So we've gone from 'stomp the pedal' to 'excessive effort to barely press the pedal'.Are you, by chance, used to an incredibly oversized and slow responding engine and have never developed any degree of fine control?

author: janoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2024, 07:58:44 pm
content: Quote from: quince on July 26, 2024, 04:39:13 pmThat doesn't mean that safety and laws go out of the window. In the US pretty much anything goes when it comes to cars, in Europe if you attempted this sort of stunt, you will not pass the mandatory technical inspection and your insurance would be void, with you being instantly on the hook for any damage or problem that happens. Regardless of any forum mottoes. That you are even bringing this sort of thing as an argument shows a rather astounding lack of comprehension.I am not sure whether you realize how high the medical bills could be if you hit someone (regardless whether because of your hack or any other reason) - and don't have a valid insurance. Probably your kids would be still paying those debts, esp. in the US, not to mention your possible prison time for driving without insurance.Quote from: quince on July 26, 2024, 04:39:13 pmWhich doesn't mean that whatever homebrew gadgets are allowed, esp. stuff that goes into safety critical systems (I am sure you have heard about the runaway accelerator problems on some Toyotas before, right?)E.g. in Europe any mods you put on your car have to be either generally approved or you must get your own checks and approval of them from the authorities (i.e. TüV in Germany) - and have that noted in your registration papers! Otherwise your car is illegal to drive, full stop. E.g. here in Germany even using different wheel rims than the original ones the car came with can result in a major fine from the police and your car being towed/declared illegal to drive if you didn't do the above.The speed limiting devices you refer to are completely irrelevant to the debate - these have to be factory-fitted (plus it is a completely different, much more complex system - tied to satnav maps + reading of traffic signs). Homebrewers need not apply - as an individual you have zero chance to satisfy the regulatory requirements to make your own mod legal.Quote from: quince on July 26, 2024, 04:39:13 pmI think that simply due to statistics the probability is much higher that the Bolt owners are all fine - except for one weirdo who is hell bent on trying to kill himself by messing with something they don't understand instead of learning to drive the car they have bought.And if you like the Tesla - why did you buy a Bolt? Buying a Bolt and complaining it doesn't drive like a Tesla (and trying to dangerously mess with it to boot) is a bit daft, IMO.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2024, 09:25:06 pm
content: Quote from: janoc on July 26, 2024, 07:58:44 pmPersonally I don't care if the OP kills/injures himself; that is his business. I do care if he kills/injures someone else.Based on the arguments the OP makes, clearly he doesn't understand so many things that the daftness of the bolt/tesla thing is entirely unsurprising.

author: edavid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2024, 09:42:06 pm
content: Quote from: janoc on July 26, 2024, 07:58:44 pmOP is in the US, so why is the European system relevant?QuoteIt sounds like you don't have much knowledge of US health care or auto insurance.Auto insurance coverage limits can be quite low. In my state, the minimum for bodily injury is $25K. Most engineers carry more than that, but it's very rare (and expensive) for anyone to have more than $1M coverage. So, auto insurance doesn't really protect your net worth.Fortunately, it's rare for an accident victim to have more than $10K in medical costs. (Loss of income can add to that though.)In most states, driving without insurance is punished by a small fine, not jail time.There is no requirement to report modifications to one's insurance company, and they do not void the insurance. In the event of a claim, the insurance company would have the burden of proving that the modification caused or contributed to the accident.

author: bookaboo
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 27, 2024, 02:10:41 am
content: Quote from: quince on July 26, 2024, 04:39:13 pmNo you are hearing several very well qualified people tell you not to do it for your own safety and the safety of others.I drive a Model Y Dual Motor daily. Even in normal mode it's perfectly possible to drive it like a Prius. Chill mode just takes away the real punch and top end.

author: SteveThackery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 27, 2024, 09:00:01 am
content: Quote from: edavid on July 26, 2024, 09:42:06 pmThat is astonishing! Is it really true? If so, wow! Here in Europe it's the exact opposite.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 27, 2024, 10:05:59 am
content: Quote from: SteveThackery on July 27, 2024, 09:00:01 amIf it was true then US insurance companies are missing tricks in how to avoid payouts. (E.g. if you are stationary in a traffic queue and are rear-ended, checking to see whetheryourtyres are legal).I find it hard to believe that US insurance companies are that inefficient with their shareholder's money.

author: janoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 27, 2024, 11:19:46 am
content: Quote from: edavid on July 26, 2024, 09:42:06 pmBecause he keeps bringing up irrelevant arguments about the EU trying to bolster his claims.QuoteI know enough to know, that I don't want to drive around with an invalid insurance and get into an accident. The victim's medical (and other) expenses you will get ordered to pay afterwards are most likely to drive you bankrupt.That your insurance covers you only up to $25k (which is, IMO, ridiculous but that's different topic) or that most people don't incur more than $10k in medical costs after an accident is not an excuse to drive around without one (or with an invalid one). That is a completely ridiculous position to take - all it takes is one moment of bad luck.

author: BarrowBoy
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2024, 04:49:06 am
content: I guess owning a 641bhp, (478kW) 700Nm EV would not be your cup of tea then. Maybe it might be safer if your walking I guess, or best bet is stay in bed. Don't go limiting a EV just because you lack throttle control.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2024, 09:41:35 am
content: I would be very surprised if your vehicle does not have some kind of eco mode. Or perhaps you can get the throttle map reprogrammed. I would consider both before replacing the accelerator signal, which strikes me as very dangerous.

author: bookaboo
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2024, 08:42:01 am
content: That easy? Wow, to think the big Auto companies were wasting all that time on testing and compliance.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2024, 09:59:14 am
content: Quote from: bookaboo on August 06, 2024, 08:42:01 amAnd reliability, especially w.r.t. connectors, water, vibration.Good luck with the response from your insurance company, when you inform them of this modification. Ditto lawyers, after an accident - whether or not you were responsible.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2024, 09:19:11 am
content: Quote from: quince on August 07, 2024, 06:29:46 amUse your own name.I suggest "Quince accepts full responsibility for any and all direct or consequential damage that occurs while this PCB is fitted, whether or not this PCB is the cause".... because that's what is likely to happen.

author: uer166
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2024, 06:16:34 am
content: Quote from: quince on August 20, 2024, 06:11:24 amNot taking a hint from your own vehicle or people in the know, heh

author: woody
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2024, 07:48:48 am
content: Quote from: quince on August 20, 2024, 06:39:11 amIf customers genuinely want EV's that won't accelerate beyond their handling capacity, they can just buy them:https://www.dacia.nl/hybride-en-elektrische-modellen/spring.htmlThe smallest version has 33kW/48hp, weights 925 kg and costs under 19k euro's, tax included. Even in our highly taxed environment.Me thinks that if you sell the Bolt and get the Spring this will leave you with some nice holiday money

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2024, 10:25:09 am
content: Quote from: uer166 on August 20, 2024, 06:16:34 am"You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink".Messrs Kruger and Dunning made a name for themselves studying people like the OP.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2024, 10:28:14 am
content: Quote from: quince on August 20, 2024, 06:39:11 amYou can make some aspects of cars foolproof, but there's no way you can make them damn-foolproof.Some claim the best way of making cars safer is to have a spike on the steering wheel, pointing at the driver.

author: langwadt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2024, 10:36:31 am
content: Quote from: quince on August 20, 2024, 06:39:11 amthe speeder pedal is not an on-off switch, learn to use it

author: SteveThackery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2024, 02:32:22 pm
content: Quote from: langwadt on August 20, 2024, 10:36:31 amYes, this is the bit I'm still puzzled by. The OP can get what he wants just by being more gentle with the throttle.It sounds like it might be a bit "hair trigger", so perhaps it really is difficult to drive smoothly. I've got a De Walt cordless drill and it is similar - low speed control is very tricky. My buddy has Makita kit, and it is so much easier to control the motor speed. It feels like it has a different response curve on the trigger.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2024, 04:49:29 pm
content: Quote from: quince on August 20, 2024, 06:39:11 amAnd thereby make it impractical to join higher speed traffic on real-world roads.Take the lead plate out of your shoe instead, it's a lot easier.

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2024, 07:20:36 am
content: Quote from: quince on August 22, 2024, 06:48:24 amThis is usual tggzzz, he's a grumpy old man, just ignore. He has some good contributions on some subjects though.The mob mentality in this thread is ridiculous. As if car manufacturers are perfect and never make designs no one wouldn't need or want to alter. Or as if everyone had similar accuracy of control of their feet. Or as if differentpreferenceswere not allowable.For example, I know of a production car from a very well known large car manufacturer which activates honk when user opens the fueling/charging door. It can beeasilyshown that this design choice is incorrect, and potentially illegal. Thus making amodificationof the car makes it A) better, B) possibly more legal.I drive Nissan Leaf which luckily does have this ECO mode button. With 160kW max power, it's not as overpowered car as some other EVs, but in the "normal" throttle mode it is more tiring to be so careful with the pedal, and the fact that 100% of power is delivered already before the end of the mechanical range is just stupid. Using the ECO mode fixes it and you still get full power if you totally floor the pedal.I can fully understand your reasoning to do the mod. Others are kinda right in that it is a very dangerous mod which needs to be done with due diligence to be A) legal, B) safe (which are BTW two completely different things). You especially want B, but A would not hurt either.And to some degree I also share the concern of you not being unable of doing this mod safely, but the "there can't be any need for modding, just buy another car" mentality here is absolutely hilarious and totally detached from reality. Car modding is really commonplace and not always stupid.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2024, 08:09:18 am
content: Quote from: Siwastaja on August 22, 2024, 07:20:36 amI am indeed grumpy when I see someone be determined to do something that is unnecessary and which is likely tohurt innocent bystanders, especially if they are not competent.For the avoidance of doubt, I don't really care if someone hurts themselves or damages their property; that's their business.I do care if they hurt someone else, since that might just be someone I know and care about. we all have harebrained ideas; that's not a problem.Repeatedlynot listening to advice frommanypeople is a problem. the OP could and should be more careful. He is complaining about what happens with abigmovement, not a hair triggerQuote from: quince on August 22, 2024, 06:48:24 am regardless of how well his modificationmighthave been constructed and installed, it didn't work and the OP doesn't understand why. That is a Big Hint.Quote from: quince on August 20, 2024, 06:11:24 am

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2024, 10:41:30 am
content: Quote from: woody on August 20, 2024, 07:48:48 amConsumers are also free to just press the loud, er.. "go" pedal for an EV, less.Just because a car has 158kW, does not mean you actually have to use that.I would rather drive a vehicle with more power than less; it can really help you out in a bind. There have been instances where having instantly-available power has allowed me to merge more safely, especially on at-grade junctions onto busy highways (common in rural parts of the UK).

author: woody
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2024, 01:28:47 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on August 22, 2024, 10:41:30 amI agree with you (although, arguably, if everybody has limited power, the instances where one would need a lot of it would be limited and easily solved by anticipating well).But anyway, my reaction was regarding people like OP who seem to be unable to control their right foot. And because they cannot control that foot they want "auto OEMs and its engineers to build cars that are not capable of accelerating faster than 0.1g"I showed them that less powerful EV's are already being built.Personally I find that I can make our own (366kW) EV crawl mere centimeters per second without even thinking twice about it. More than once I have reflected on the great engineering that brought this about. Controlling so much power in such a controlled way. Hats off!

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2024, 01:37:06 pm
content: Quote from: woody on August 22, 2024, 01:28:47 pmI mean, one could have an actual medical condition which limits their accuracy of controlling their right foot. As OP clearly states they don't like the right foot response of their car, your "reaction" deserves a counter reaction of: no shit Sherlock.QuoteNo, I think OP was discussing about developing a modinstead ofasking auto OEMs to fix the pedal to work the way they want?

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2024, 01:51:06 pm
content: Quote from: Siwastaja on August 22, 2024, 01:37:06 pmSeems unlikely. If someone has a medical condition that makes it difficult to control a car, are they even allowed to drive?Certainly if I developed, say, an essential tremor or ataxia, I would stop driving.

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2024, 04:56:35 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on August 22, 2024, 01:51:06 pmAnd you are wrong again. There are completely legal devices e.g. hand-operated gas "pedal" replacements for those completely leg impaired, e.g. in wheelchair.Ability to drive is assessed as a whole, and helping devices are allowed. A typical textbook example of such helpful devices are eyeglasses. You are allowed to drive with those, even if you can't without. But if you want to be a fighter jet pilot, different rules (probably) apply, and vision needs to be good even without eyeglasses.

author: langwadt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2024, 05:42:06 pm
content: Quote from: Siwastaja on August 22, 2024, 04:56:35 pmJason Watt was paralyzed from the waist down in a motorcycle accident, here's how he drives a racecar,https://youtu.be/tqBovou67U0?si=IgpDX71Oxgv2MqDz

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2024, 05:48:17 pm
content: Quote from: Siwastaja on August 22, 2024, 04:56:35 pmSuch hand-operated appliances are designed and made by companies who test them extensively and ensure that they fail safe.In principle what the OP is doing could be made completely safe. In practice, there are extensive tests required to verify that, and OP is but one person. The chance of overlooking something leading to a catastrophic situation in which the vehicle accelerates quickly without user input is possible. And in a panicked situation like that, it can't be guaranteed that people will respond correctly. See all the instances of Sudden Unintended Acceleration which have resulted in 100+ mph crashes.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2024, 05:57:35 pm
content: Quote from: woody on August 22, 2024, 01:28:47 pmWell, only if their speed is limited. In the highway merging scenario, it only takes about 20hp/30kW to maintain 70mph. Even the slowest-accelerating passenger cars made today are going to be capable of maintaining 70mph on the flat. So, having more power is useful when merging into a road because it means you can go from, say, 20mph to 70mph in very little space, thereby slotting in to the traffic without inconveniencing others or, worse, risking a collision.And whilst it is ideal to say that you should just anticipate a gap, I've been at a junctionlike thisbefore many times where no gap of sufficient size existed for several minutes, that would allow merging onto the road slowly. The only way to merge here is the "full send" (TM) - find a gap that you are comfortable with and go full "throttle" to get to 70mph as quickly as possible (speed limit of that particular road.) Otherwise, you will be waiting for minutes more, and a queue of traffic will begin building behind you, which creates its own hazards. I firmly believe having the power available to you is actually safer than not having the power.Quote from: woody on August 22, 2024, 01:28:47 pmYeah, it's kind of crazy isn't it. I remember my old PHEV, sometimes the petrol engine had to run at the same time when doing low speed stuff (usually when the EV battery was flat.) It was weird trying to park with the engine on. It was just more difficult. You couldn't inch forward into a space, only 'lurch' somewhat.

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2024, 06:11:43 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on August 22, 2024, 05:48:17 pmOf course, and this part of the critique against OP is in place. But claims that this type of devices could not be made, or that they could not be needed, are both obviously wrong. It's a product for which I can imagine very real (albeit niche) market, and which can be engineered safelyandlegally. Doing so is obviously not easy. On the other hand, I'm fine with OP testing his prototypes on a closed circuit, and maybe one day he's in charge of a company who makes this product safely and legally, we should be giving him benefit of doubt.

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2024, 06:14:20 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on August 22, 2024, 01:51:06 pmYour 'holier than thou' attitude is really beginning to pollute the feel of this forum, tggzzz. Annoying in it's way, as much as treez.You seem uninformed too. The team of qualified doctors at the DVLA Drivers Medical Group, using detailed medical information from your GP and/or Consultants, determine whether you are still fit to drive - and trust me, they are demanding.The dangerous people are those who 'know better' and do not recognise or disclose medical conditions. I suggest that you play safe and surrender your license now. After all, who knows what physical or cognitive conditions may be lurking that you have failed to recognise, and those around you may be too reluctant to bring to your attention. Iknowwhat's wrong with me.https://www.gov.uk/health-conditions-and-driving/find-condition-a-to-z

author: darkspr1te
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2024, 06:19:32 pm
content: re:disabled drivingCorrect, when i worked in uk I installed dual controls for driving instructors and steering/hand controls for disabled drivers, oddly enough the biggest problems was not that but drivers doors, UK parking(dont park in disable spots ppl unless you are ) and seats that allow you to be high enough but swing a portable chair over steering etc. This was back in the 90's.To answer the issue of driving with conditions, I have petit and grand mal seizure's but thanks to a group of 4x4 racers(now living here in zambia) i was able to compete for two years until another condition stopped me racing , i still drive but i have a support dog who predicts them now, he's a 2 year old German Shepard called SameSame(said fast so it almost sounds like Samsam) , if he paws me i know i need a safe space as one is coming if he licks or nudges me i need to eat.Anyway my point is with the right support you can drive safe and not be a danger my condition is on my DL and i get another year after a doctor sign off. The real danger is unrecognized disabilities like car makers realizing that a menu to change a simple function is not safe on the road and BMW indicators, but thats another rant :-Pdarkspr1te

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2024, 07:45:19 pm
content: Quote from: Siwastaja on August 22, 2024, 04:56:35 pmAm I really?Do youknowthe OP's medical state? Or are you just .... um, hypothesising wildly?BTW,aircraftcan be modified so pilots with some forms of "lower limb" disability can still fly. FFI see the Aerobility charity, which indicates that it is possible for such disabled people to get their PPLhttps://www.aerobility.com/flight-opportunities

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2024, 08:00:54 pm
content: Quote from: Gyro on August 22, 2024, 06:14:20 pmI suspect I know more that you believe, since I have had occasion to consult such people (AMEs) w.r.t. flying aircraft. It turned out there was no problem.But let's remember this sub-thread was was started by Siwastaja tossing out a speculation about the OP into the discussion. I've no idea why, and I haven't seen anything to indicate the OPhasany relevant medical condition.As such this sub-thread appears to be no more than a completely useless hypothetical digression.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2024, 08:04:02 pm
content: Quote from: Siwastaja on August 22, 2024, 06:11:43 pmI too would be happy if the OP only tested it on a closed circuit, privately and safely and legally.The OP has not indicated he did that.