Are engineers overworked? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: VK3DRB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2014, 12:55:26 pm
content: An engineer I knew took up a new job here in Australia. He was working 7 days a week, 12 hours a day for 6 weeks straight, during which he rarely saw his wife and baby. He eventually cracked. One morning he quit on the spot, without giving notice. "Sue me!" he told them as he walked out, "I would rather be in jail than work here one day longer."I have been in one company where taking the entitled annual leave was near impossible. If you wanted more than a week, it had to get personal approval from the CEO in the US. They were paying some engineers out in extra cash in lieu of their leave. I know of engineers elsewhere quitting due to overwork, overstress and in one case being cheated out of pay.About 10 years ago I knew a smart young engineer with 3-4 years experience working 12-14 hours a day on money that was less than you would get flipping burgers at MacDonalds if you took the hourly rate into account. He never complained until one day he cracked too and quit.These days, it seems to be "expected of professionals to work long hours". However a few years ago, I worked under a manager who refused to allow his engineers work extra hours. Why? One of his ex-colleagues some years before was overworked, went home very late and was killed in a car accident when he fell asleep at the wheel.One Aussie engineer and a long time friend, who now works in the US describes engineers as modern day slaves.Have you ever worked to almost breakdown? Is this sort of thing commonplace where you live? What have your experiences been in regards to being overworked? Are things getting worse of better as the world becomes a global economy?

author: ElektroQuark
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 07, 2014, 01:01:09 pm
content: Who is not?

author: dr.diesel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2014, 01:23:41 pm
content: I worked 12 hours a day for almost 14 years, with many projects lasting 10+ weeks working everyday 12 or so hours each.I then wised up and quit, life and family are way more important.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2014, 01:44:25 pm
content: I do notice how deadlines move closer to the start dates then further away from the estimated finish dates here, without adding more personell. Ergo heavier workload and nobody daring to complain.If I look at my past managers don't see how overworked their personell is unless it is too late and a few have burned out. When one persone burns out still nothing happens but the rest of the team have to bear his load. Then another drops out and it begins to show, then another till it finally hits the manager that there was a problem and now there is a catastrophy.Then my gf works in a hospital and it is the same there, maybe no deadlines but workload increases while number of employees slowly decreases. Timebomb scenario wait till some patient dies because there was no free nurse in the vicinity.

author: liquibyte
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2014, 02:07:16 pm
content: You should try driving as a long haul truck driver some time. I drove for just over 10 months straight without coming off the road, no, I'm not kidding or lying. Factoring in the time and "required" re-investment into the truck lease and other sundry, I made out at less than $2/hr. This is perfectly legal to expect of solo drivers and given that the regulations keep getting stricter and are laid upon the drivers and not the companies probably won't end any time soon.

author: han
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2014, 02:15:48 pm
content: maybe the question is wrong..Is all employee overworked?

author: linux-works
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2014, 02:57:44 pm
content: engineering is definitely becoming a 'body shop' style work environment.case in point: we started off, years ago, with hardwall offices for employees. then we went with cubicles. the cubes started to have their dividers lowered and, over time, they became just a few feet high, just barely giving any separation between people. my last job was with no barriers in a so-called 'open office' (which EVERYONE hated, but HR forced on us. even HR admitted, later on, that it was not a wise decision).business owners don't generally feel any responsibility toward employees. you see this in the US when business owners are trying their best to reduce hours of employees so that they are not 'fulltime' but are 'part time' and so they don't have to pay medical/insurance/vacation/sicktime benefits. I've been at places where there are more 'contractors' (not fulltime, so no benefits) than employees!the minute a business starts to have a bad quarter, they start thinking 'we can we fire now to re-make our numbers again?'. they don't care about you. and so, its now a turn-about and we generally don't care about them and we certainly don't trust them anymore.I once was working 100+ hrs a week. I'd get to work at 7am and stay till 10pm 7 days a week. this was back when I was a lot younger and figured that I was 'paying dues' in the industry. well, there is really no such thing and whatever you offer to one employer, the next won't really care what sacrifices you made to prove yourself. you'll be asked to work killer hours all over again.one interview I was on recently had the hiring manager tell me that it was part of the job to man the customer support phones until 10pm each nite. while you are home! this is your own time, after, say, 6pm or so. but he thought it was quite fine to ask employees, after they went home, to hang out on email and call back any customers that posted questions. when I told him that since he was expecting 1.5 times the hours worked on a regular basis, that he has to pay 1.5x the salary and then I'd be ok giving up much of my personal time. he looked at me like I called him a bad name. he could not understand how unreasonable his request was. obviously, I didn't take the job.with overseas labor competing with western labor, this won't get better any time soon. there will be more downsizing and more hours worked for those that are still there. the boss-man only cares about the cost vs profit and asking people to work more hours is an 'easy' solution for bean counters.the industry is really starting to suck. I would not recommend people getting into the industry, to be honest. it won't get better and shows no signs of it. and, technology (in the US anyway) is mostly a non-union kind of job and so there is nothing to help protect workers rights anymore. lawmakers don't help and with a lack of unions, there is no one to speak for the employee anymore.

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2014, 03:01:14 pm
content: Quote from: linux-works on April 07, 2014, 02:57:44 pmAre there any industries thataren'tbecoming a steaming pile of suck?

author: linux-works
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2014, 03:12:12 pm
content: the ones that can't be outsourced to cheap child labor. if you cannot undercut your local workforce, there will be a bit more respect all the way around.its when you are no longer valued and you are seen as a commodity that you get the employer abuse.I keep saying this: physical jobs are the way to the future, not thinking jobs. thinking jobs can be done remotely and they WILL be done remotely, so you won't be able to compete.otoh, physical jobs can still be taken by those coming to your country under 'work visas' and they will undercut your wages.the 'war on the working man' is showing no signs of slowing down, sadly. but avoiding the thinking jobs (for those just starting out) is probably smart, long-term.

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2014, 03:12:34 pm
content: Quote from: c4757p on April 07, 2014, 03:01:14 pmYes, there are, you just can't beat these, and its proven through time, which are, in financial industries as in Wall Street and in legalindustriesbusiness as in lawyer.And they still proudly called them self "an engineer" working in "engineering fields", such as Financial Engineeringor Legal Loop Hole Engineering.Feeling you had pick up the wrong field lately ? ... <just teasing & mocking you up Chris>

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2014, 03:24:29 pm
content: The financial industries are set up to fail, couple more years they will need to be bailed out again and this time they won't get away without profit margins being regulated into a smoking crater ... public opinion won't allow it, if you get into it now you'll have to make your money quick. Lawyer has been an overcrowded occupation for quite a while now, no quick money there unless you're a superstar.We hit peak labour scarcity a long time ago, it's all downhill from here unless we find some alternative to neo-liberalism and foreign oil.

author: KJDS
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2014, 03:30:26 pm
content: It's been at least six years since I worked a day rate rather than an hourly rate, and even then I'd get paid for a day and a half if I did 11 hours work.Most places I've worked at have had plenty of hourly paid contractors who could chose how to balance their lives.

author: FrankenPC
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 07, 2014, 03:37:20 pm
content: Quote from: BravoV on April 07, 2014, 03:12:34 pmI'm a software engineer working in a large legal IT shop. Pay is great and they don't overwork you. But legal is FAR from a stable environment. The last company I worked for had been in business 100 years until several partners decided to leave taking a large chunk of business with them. They went bankrupt in 3 months. (Heller Ehrman LLP). The current firm I'm with has over 2000 employees and has been in business for 50 years. They just lost an entire division. Law firms are unstable by nature. There is no company without the partners.

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2014, 03:38:12 pm
content: Looking at the "motivational" comments made, so are you experienced engineers are suggesting youngsters to abandon ship and jump off now, since the shore for them is within swimming distance before its too late ?

author: linux-works
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2014, 03:51:13 pm
content: all my experience is in the US, half in the boston area and half in the silicon valley area.outsourcing is 100% killing the local workers. and imported workers (h1b) outnumber locals sometimes 20:1. the last few jobs I had, I was the only american working in a large group (or even all of engineering!) and yet it was an american company in america. local workers will be 'expensive' and so companies go out of their way to not hire you. the last layoff I was in, 1/3 of our local office was let go and all but one were american workers. the others were all h1b workers from various places in the world. and they were scared for their jobs and did not DARE speak up or against the company. the company knows how to control people and this is the new work 'ethic'.again, this is silicon valley and its a bit more harsh than other areas of the country or even the world. its very competitive but its now not even a fair playing ground anymore. if you were good and had skills, you could find a job. but now, you can go long periods of time without getting even a call back for your resume/cv submission.I would SERIOUSLY advise american parents to not send their kids into a 'thinking job'. there's just no future in that. I don't know what the answer is, but this trend shows no sign of slowing down. the middle class in the US is under heavy attack and thinking jobs used to be the core of the middle class. once they are all sent overseas, I'm not sure what kind of middle class we'll have anymore.for me, I've been working in software for nearly 35 yrs and maybe its time I leave the field. leaving the field is not voluntary, though; its a new reality that many of us of a certain age will have to deal with whether we like it or not.if you are young (under 30) you can have an easier time finding and keeping a job; but as you get beyond the 'logan's run' age, you will find less and less opportunities being offered to you.I don't have kids, but if I did and if they were asking about what career to get into, I would NOT advise electronics or software. there is nearly no western future in this, long term. by the time they'd graduate, things will have gotton increasingly worse.in other areas of the world, where some local workforce protection is in effect, it won't be that bad. in the US, though, there is ZERO local workforce protection and, in fact, the big co's are lobbying for even MORE imported workers.

author: linux-works
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2014, 03:56:30 pm
content: Quote from: KJDS on April 07, 2014, 03:30:26 pmin the US, they created SPECIAL exceptions for tech workers. if you are a plumber or hang wall board or run electrical wires, you get paid overtime; time and a half, double time even triple time. however, the tech companies paid off congress (about 20 or 30 yrs ago) to create 'excempt' (that's the term) workers and you won't get overtime pay but you WILL be asked to work 'free hours' for the boss man. and you have no legal say-so in this; they legally can ask you to work 80 hours a week for 40 hours pay and you can't do a thing to them, legally. IBM, microsoft, cisco and big guys like that all lobbied for 'exemption' rules that say that tech workers who use any creativity at all, are responsible for 'getting a job done' regardless of how long it takes. otoh, if you are a typist and given papers to just type up from handwriting, that is not a 'creative job' and so its not exempt; if it takes you longer, you CAN ask for overtime pay. but 'skilled' thinking workers are exempt and if you need extra time to get the boss' task done, its on YOU to donate the free time, not him.my last contract job was capped at 40hrs/week max and when my boss asked me to work extra hours, he was not offering to PAY for them and certainly not offering 1.5x the rate.

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2014, 04:14:26 pm
content: Not sure if this is related, watch this ->The Chopsticks

author: Bored@Work
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2014, 05:59:57 pm
content: See my nickname to get an idea if I feel overworkedHowever, that did not come for free. You carefully have to select employers and check their employees, too. One interesting factor contributing to long hours is when there is no solidarity among the employees. If you have a bunch of idiots constantly putting in long hours for whatever reason*they ruin the atmosphere for everyone.Another issue is lack of planning. Not of planning by upper management, but ones own personal level. 80% of successfully delivering on time is proper planing, managing your time, managing your own resources, properly estimating and honestly communicating. Only 20% is proper execution. However, many engineers confuse being busy with being productive. Instead of taking 30 minutes to first think, hey, even doing some math, they act first, think later.*They hate their wives and don't want to go home. They want a promotion. They are just a piece of shit wanting to show off how great they are. They are addicted to stress and it gives them a hard one. They just go their first child. They have no clue. They haven't learned to say no. Whatever it is, it's not funny.

author: con-f-use
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 07, 2014, 08:16:25 pm
content: I wonder why it's going that way. I see it everywhere around me in young academics who recently took a job. Not so much with my other friends.In principle technology should enable us to work less and have more free time but at least in the technical subjects its the opposite.

author: lewis
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2014, 09:47:03 pm
content: Quote from: linux-works on April 07, 2014, 03:56:30 pmIs this really true? Seems inconceivable.If so, what better incentive to start your own business. That way, you can work 100 hours a week for 1 hour's pay. But at least that hour belongs to you.

author: linux-works
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2014, 10:05:22 pm
content: its very very true. I checked into the legality when I was contracting. I learned how the US defines the magic word 'exempt' and how it exists to screw you, if you work for a living.50 yrs ago, the US had more worker rights than they do now! we've gone backwards, in fact. we started out with nothing, a bunch of people fought for worker's rights and we got weekends off, a 40 hour work week and other things. but then, over time, what we won started to erode and there has been a downward trend ever since. see the movie 'inequality for all' and you'll get what I'm saying.

author: gxti
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2014, 11:39:34 pm
content: Occasional crunch time is one thing, but continual overtime is not only unhealthy and unreasonable but it's not even any more productive than a normal schedule. Overworked, overstressed, over-tired employees do less and make more mistakes. The only way to justify 80+ hour workweeks if you're in a startup and expecting a big payoff or a big flameout before it kills you, and everyone has to be 100% behind it. It's not something that can be imposed.Eventually you just have to give your boss an ultimatum. You had an expectation of working X hours for Y pay and instead they're demanding 2X hours, so either demand you work the X hours you wanted or get the 2Y pay you deserve. Worst case you lose your job but also also the primary source of stress in your life -- at worst that's break-even, at best you find a better job instead of suffering forever. It's not all crap, but if you never try to find something better that's all you'll have.

author: Tinkerer
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2014, 12:12:08 am
content: Quote from: gxti on April 07, 2014, 11:39:34 pmThis. Even if it cost me a job I would refuse to work so much. Its one thing for an occasional time, but constantly is as above. Every now and then I hear about american work ethic vs european work ethic and despite americans working more, they arnt any more productive than their european counterparts.Part of the problem is that people dont put their foot down to this. If more people refused to be treated like this, it wouldnt be anywhere near the problem it is.

author: David_AVD
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2014, 12:20:07 am
content: Do workers agree to work this unpaid overtime simply because of the fear of job loss?It does sound like some workers are digging themselves into a hole and perpetuating the unfair practices of those employers.

author: HackedFridgeMagnet
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2014, 12:29:33 am
content: QuoteI remember this but it was the 2nd child, I was scared to go home, everyone (wife and kids) was angry, kids crying, in that hour after you got home.Work was a place you went because it was calm.Now they are older and the wife is working it is much better.

author: linux-works
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2014, 12:30:57 am
content: Quote from: David_AVD on April 08, 2014, 12:20:07 amin my locale, at least, its a company's market. when I first moved here in the early 90's it was very much an employee's market and I had tons of job offers and companies generally treated employees well just to keep them! now, we've gone 180 from that and people do all they can for fear of LOSING their jobs.without a balance of power (unions) the companies are free to even collude and vow not to hire each other's 'stars' (apple, google, intel, big guys like that are part of this collusion).this definitely affects how you work on your job. I've seen people avoid challenging their bosses or even asking questions in public for fear of losing 'points' when it comes to the annual review. layoffs are almost a regular expected thing and its also there to keep people in fear and under controls.in short, it really is starting to suck...

author: linux-works
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2014, 12:35:33 am
content: Quote from: gxti on April 07, 2014, 11:39:34 pmI had a recent interview with a guy who acted 'surprised' that I objected to a constant 60hrs/week. his view was 'huh? everyone in the bay area works those hours. I dont understand why you would object!'.he and I are both older guys and neither of us was born yesterday, but he tried to tell me that it was usual and expected to do a 60hr/week every single week, no matter what. and for about 20k less than what I was thinking the job should pay.I did not take the job. and fwiw, he has been looking for a guy for well over 6 months! either he really does not need someone OR he can't find anyone who will slave away for the low pay they are offering.any time I see a job open for more then 3 months, I wonder what's wrong with the company and the manager. no reason on god's green earth for a job to be open for 3 months. so many people out of work and yet a company can leave a position open that long, unfilled? unbelievable!I've seen google jobs stay open for 9-12 months. that's the very definition of a 'company with more attitude than brains', thinking that a job req being open that long is not a sign of an insane manager...

author: David_AVD
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2014, 12:42:05 am
content: Quote from: HackedFridgeMagnet on April 08, 2014, 12:29:33 amYou shouldn't avoid it. Your wife may need that sanity break as soon as you come home more than you think.

author: HighVoltage
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2014, 01:20:46 am
content: I went on my own, very early on and never went back to a fixed employment.And I am glad, I did.Nowadays I have projects and charge by the hour or by a project or by finishing a system.I try to keep the stress to a minimum but some clients are just outrageous with their requirements.But, it is not easy to find a balance between personal and business life.The world around us is changing dramatically. The financial crisis is not over by any means.We all better prepare for what is coming our way with the next financial crisis.

author: TheBorg
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2014, 04:57:26 am
content: Well. You guys make me feel great about getting a decent paying career while sustaining a life...

author: Bored@Work
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2014, 05:44:41 am
content: Quote from: Tinkerer on April 08, 2014, 12:12:08 amIt is the same old story, being busy or acting busy doesn't mean you are productive.There is an anecdote I have heard in many different versions. An old guy retires. Some time after that his former employer has a problem with one of their product. An army of young engineers spends month trying to find the problem but ultimately gives up. Then they decide to give that old retired guy a call. He comes in, walks around the machine one time (strokes his gray beard), then takes a piece of chalk, marks one part with an X, says "fix this" and walks out. The company replaces the part and the machine starts to work.A week later the company receives a bill of $10 000 from the guy for services rendered. Since this sounds a bit much they ask for an itemized bill with more details. They gotDrawing an X with a piece of chalk $1Knowing where to draw the X $9999================================================Total $10 000Quote from: HighVoltage on April 08, 2014, 01:20:46 amIt is not only self-employed people who have a problem with this. It is one of the new scams in employee's life.When your employer gives you a cell phone and talks about better managing your work-life balance then you should run, not walk. He effectively wants to put you on a leash. And work-life balance means work is now intruding in your private life.The solution is rather simple, but takes balls. Leave the business cell phone in the office. Don't hand your employer your private (cell) phone number. Don't check business e-mails after office hours. Don't be available 24/7 via IM or other rubbish. And when your boss complaints ask for extra on-call duty payment.Quote from: TheBorg on April 08, 2014, 04:57:26 amIt is about your ability to say no and to carefully select employers and co-workers.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2014, 07:05:37 am
content: The strange thing about engineering is that even when the people are scarce and wanted the companies do not raise the salaries.As I conclude from our american friends their government just opens the borders for foreigners to work those jobs and because those foreigners do not have families (yet) and no friends/clubs and any social life they can work at least 12 hours a day what else should they do. Well maybe a bit black/white stated but that sounds like 100 years agoTo end with some good news, our company outsourced a lot of IT jobs to India and HW jobs to China, the IT jobs are now slowly coming back because the Indian company has messed up a couple of big times. The reason was that there was no local management there that controlled the whole process so if our manager asked something, two weeks later he got something else and that continued untill he spent each and every day at least two hours checking what was done or being doneThe only part we IT guys played was complaining about the s*it code they delivered. Oh well end well all well. The salaries in China (Being) and India are rising towards european level and it is just a matter of time that jobs are coming back, the only thing that is countering this force are managers that get a bonus when they outsource people and they fake the numbers on paper to get their bonus. If they would just get rid of thos bonus-bogies all will be well in some years.