EEVblog #852 - Multimeter Mass Turbulence - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 17, 2016, 11:04:10 pm
content: What result do you get when you mass test 40 identical multimeters for DCV, ACV, DCA, and Ohms?Dave decided to find out...

author: Muttley Snickers
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 17, 2016, 11:47:13 pm
content: Not very likely that any of us mere mortals would ever get the opportunity to conduct such a comparison and just like the meter itself this test was special, thank you.....In all honesty I can't find too much wrong with it and it puts some other meters I have here to shame.

author: Radio Tech
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2016, 12:33:14 am
content: Very nice test Davelove to have one of those on my bench. Would look much better than my orange Klein when I do videos.

author: jesuscf
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2016, 01:22:29 am
content: This is one of the best EEVblogs ever!

author: RobertoLG
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2016, 01:45:27 am
content: lol, nice one, it's even weird to see so many together

author: retrolefty
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2016, 02:15:02 am
content: Quote from: RobertoLG on February 18, 2016, 01:45:27 amSo are these meters now not brand new, but rather slightly used.Hell, you might as well sign their backs with a sharpy, they may become a collectible thing.

author: RobertoLG
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2016, 02:31:50 am
content: Quote from: retrolefty on February 18, 2016, 02:15:02 amhehehe, I wouldn't mind to get a slightly used one, it would be better if he signed inside the holster so it wouldn't wearout

author: Smokey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2016, 02:32:43 am
content: While you had them all out of the boxes, you should have signed them and sold them at a markup!When I saw the thumbnail I was hoping to see a 100 banana cable rats nets with all the meters in parallel.Run that same test with 40 Keithley DMM7510 and then you got something!

author: retrolefty
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2016, 02:42:14 am
content: Quote from: Smokey on February 18, 2016, 02:32:43 amHummm, 100 meters in parallel, input impedance would decrease by a factor of 100. Would that tax the signal source by any amount? Would that even work in resistance function?

author: rrinker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2016, 03:03:54 am
content: You never know, maybe Dave DID sign them, and some people are going to be very lucky! Plus you know when it comes out of the box it definitely works and definitely is well within spec.From some posts in the Test Instruments and General sections, there are a few people here who might have enough multimeters to duplicate this, just not all of the same model.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2016, 09:16:14 am
content: Hmmmm....I thought the UT61E was supposed to be more accurate than that. I'm taking it off my mental list.New, simplified list:AllUni-Ts are junk.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2016, 09:53:19 am
content: Quote from: wilfred on February 18, 2016, 09:28:40 amBut we know that at leadtsomeof them are junk, so why take the chance?Quote from: wilfred on February 18, 2016, 09:28:40 amIt wasjustinside spec.(0.3% isn't a very good spec for something with a 22000-count chipset that displays 5 digits on screen)PS: I've got $4, 2000-count meters that measure +/- one digit.

author: mux
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2016, 10:55:17 am
content: The spec is supposed to hold over the range and temperature rating; this is where most cheap multimeters fail. They may be just in spec at 25C, but fail completely at e.g. 5CGood to see that Brymen uses a decent stability ADC and probably metal film or high-stability thin film resistors. None of that thick film rubbish.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2016, 11:14:54 am
content: Good video, Dave! It brought me a feeling of nostalgia for your multimeter shootouts... Or even the gaussian resistor redux!

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2016, 11:23:40 am
content: Quote from: mux on February 18, 2016, 10:55:17 amYep. It definitely seems like a nice little meter.I'd probably get one if I was in the market for a new meter but I've already got enough of them (I know, I know...)

author: HKJ
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2016, 01:54:21 pm
content: Quote from: mux on February 18, 2016, 10:55:17 amNo, better meters has specs for a limited temperature range and then additional tolerances for the rest of the temperature range.

author: cidcorp
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 18, 2016, 02:44:10 pm
content: While they are all out of the boxes, start signing them. Now let's do that with the low end 4 channel Rigol scopes, even get them branded as well.

author: WackyGerman
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2016, 06:56:49 pm
content: Well these meters are really close to bang on. So this may be a good comparison closed case adjustment vs open case adjustment and how serious manufacturers do it .I have a brymen 257s and it is also well in the specification but my agilent u1241b , my norma d3012 and my fluke 123 scopemeter are more close to spot on . the only disadvantage of the norma d3012 is that it is not a trms meter so on measuring square waves it is 11 % off . It has lots of trimpots so it must be a nightmare to adjust it so fine to get into the specifications . Must be an old grey man with a long long beard with lots of time who calibrated my d3012

author: f4eru
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2016, 07:25:06 pm
content: Quote from: retrolefty on February 18, 2016, 02:15:02 amNo, they are not used ! They have been calibrated by Dave personally. I hope he gives out a EEVblog Cal certificate with this limited series meter

author: DmitryL
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2016, 08:33:57 pm
content: Quote from: f4eru on February 18, 2016, 07:25:06 pmHas anyone spotted the meter brand in the right top corner ?

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2016, 08:34:24 pm
content: Quote from: f4eru on February 18, 2016, 07:25:06 pmA photocopy of that page with a circle drawn around your meter.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2016, 08:36:06 pm
content: Quote from: DmitryL on February 18, 2016, 08:33:57 pmDid you miss the previous video?

author: RobertoLG
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2016, 09:11:05 pm
content: just a sugestion to dave, insted of signing all of the, from like 40, take 5 or 6 and sign inside the holster and distribute them to the buyers by chance, would be a nice extra surprise, wouldn't it?

author: Huluvu
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2016, 09:24:51 pm
content: As Dave indicated I would have been surprised if the Units are not all in the same Range of a few counts (due to closed case calibration)The more interesting Part for Professionals would be the long term aspects of the calibration values, the reliability in general, the reputation, the availability of pare parts, Robustness etc.I really believe that a Brand who needs to fight for the Name and the Market Position such as Fluke, Keysight, Gossen etc. needs to design and tighten there internal Specs to achieve a life pan where no adjusting is required for at least 10 Years.Nobody - really nobody want's to adjust any Measurement Device in Business Environment!If a Measurement Device is found out of call the company is really in big trouble and need to issue a report with risk assessment.For Hobby users this could be completely unimportant - and as always - you get what you are pay forMy Proposal for the average Hobby User: buy a reliable, Safe and easy to Use Multimeter from a Brand with good Industrial Reputation

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 18, 2016, 11:42:23 pm
content: Quote from: wilfred on February 18, 2016, 11:24:32 pmI do not have the software cal adjustment procedure.

author: drussell
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2016, 11:46:14 pm
content: Quote from: Huluvu on February 18, 2016, 09:24:51 pmPrecisely!While it is good (andtotally expected) that they met (and vastly exceeded) their published specifications from the factory, themuchmore important questionis how they hold up over time with use and abuse!These meters have essentially the same class of accuracy specifications as my 25 year old Amrel model 37 (4000 count) meter has:(Sorry for the garbage image) of 0.3% + 3 counts on the DC ranges, for example...It's still damn close, at least the last time I had it near a much more accurate instrument to check it, even after being thrown in the truck or a toolbox, frozen in winter for days or weeks, scorched in the heat of the sun for hours, blasted with high voltages (it starts to beep at you when you get to 1050 or 1100 volts despite being rated for 1000), the 20A current range fuse being blown to smitherines more times that I care to admit, etc....... and this thing is is calibrated withpotentiometersand hasnever needed to be adjusted yet! It always meets spec (WAYexceeds spec, actually) every single time I've checked it against iinstruments that are an order of magnitude more accurate!!...Will the Brymen hold up? Probably quite well, I would expect, but the more telling thing than 40 out-of-the-box meters is:When Dave has the first 40 come back for returns, service or calibration, will theySTILLmeet spec?Any cheap Chinese $5 meter can meet the spec out of the box... Will these units hold up?!!Is Dave even doing the returns and service? Do you have to send it back to China to be recalibrated?He certainly has the instrumentation to be able to have people send his exclusive EEVBlog meter back to him if they have problems and check them out.THATwill certainly be interesting to see the results of!!Hopefully some people send a few back to him at some point for a check-up!Until then, it's justQuote from: wilfred on February 18, 2016, 11:24:32 pmNo, but having a second level quality control test is totally a bonus!

author: drussell
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2016, 11:47:09 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on February 18, 2016, 11:42:23 pmIMHO, if you're the exclusive distributor of this model of meter, you should get that from Brymen!

author: retrolefty
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2016, 11:50:28 pm
content: Quote from: wilfred on February 18, 2016, 11:24:32 pmHaven't you kept up with the many 'calibration' Vs 'adjustment' threads around here. There are two camps of opinion:Camp 1. Calibration is not adjustment. Calibration is comparing with 'provable' testing standards and equipment and stating the differences seen on the various ranges and functions of the device being 'calibrated' and printing a report and/or sticker for the tested item.Camp 2. What camp 1 calls calibration we call that verification or certification only. We feel a calibration is when adjustments are made, either open/closed/firmware/trim pots/whatever, to align the device being checked to match the 'provable' standards and equipment stated values. A published report should state the 'as found readings' and the 'post calibration/adjustment' readings.Dave in one of his videos stated that "calibration is not adjustment", so I guess he is a firm camp 1 member. Or perhaps he is just stating what it means to the firms he has dealt with. Pick your camp I guess.

author: f4eru
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2016, 12:01:16 am
content: Calibration and adjustment is often mixed.Usually, when you get your instrument to a cal lab, they never adjust it, (it would be an out of calibration, and a repair).Adjusting minor deviations (in spec) is bad practice, because it breaks long term reproducibility with that instrument.

author: gardner
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2016, 03:52:01 am
content: A really interesting video. Thank you.I've compared a couple of really cheap meters against my Keithley 195A, which is the most accurate meter I own. I have been surprised at the basic accuracy -- even really junky ones are basically bang on. The things I am curious about are the temperature stability and the accuracy of non-basic functions that I don't have reliable standards for myself.Temperature-wise I find I have to use my portable multimeter out in the bush in the middle of winter at -25C to debug some radio gear, or in the 35C summer sun or something. I would be interested in how these meters read after sitting on the front seat of a locked car all afternoon at 60C or after sitting in your deep freeze at -17C for 24 hours. Are they anything like accurate at extremes, and is there a lot of unit to unit variation?I would also be interested in how accurately they measure a 100kHz frequency standard and how accurately they measure a 1 mic cap. My most accurate frequency and capacitor meter is an Amprobe 34 that has a specified accuracy of 5%+10 digits for caps. It's not like super accuracy is likely to be really important in these functions, but it would be interesting to know if typical units outperform their specs in these aspects too.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 19, 2016, 04:24:16 am
content: Quote from: wilfred on February 19, 2016, 04:19:16 amContext means a lot on this subject - hence the request for clarification.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2016, 09:07:27 am
content: Quote from: retrolefty on February 18, 2016, 11:50:28 pmMy Websters English dictionary says that calibration means checking AND adjusting a piece of test equipment.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 19, 2016, 09:31:36 am
content: Quote from: wilfred on February 19, 2016, 04:19:16 amBrymen do a closed case calibrationadjustmenton the 50mV an 500mV ranges. They rely on the divider for the rest.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 19, 2016, 09:36:20 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on February 19, 2016, 09:07:27 amThis is not something you want to trust the dictionary on.At most companies running a proper quality system and take calibration seriously, if you sent a bit of gear for "calibration" and asked them to perform a calibration adjustment, then you'll get booted out the door pretty quick, or slapped over the head. Why? because you just ruined the calibration and drift history of that instrument.When you send something to a cal lab "for calibration" they will just measure it and give you a report. They will only adjust it if you ask them to.

author: nowlan
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2016, 10:27:31 am
content: News to me. Ive never done it, but for most people I think they would expect a device to be corrected if out.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 19, 2016, 11:38:08 am
content: Quote from: nowlan on February 19, 2016, 10:27:31 amThen they have no idea nor do they care about proper professional calibration procedures.Any serious gear you send for calibration should not be "out". If it is out of spec then the unit is faulty and you have a potentially big issue on your hands.I've seen this cause panics in companies -Whendid it fail? By how much? Is it intermittent? Was it used for production testing?, or qualification? How many units tested weer effected? It can lead to huge formal investigation.If the calibration company simply tweaks if back into spec for you then that company would lose their calibration contract instantly!I know this sounds a bit ridiculous to Joe Average electronics enthusiast, but it's the way calibration is done professionally in the industry, and there are very good reasons for it.Calibration shouldnotinclude adjustment unless specifically done so under your advisement.

author: retrolefty
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2016, 11:54:53 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on February 19, 2016, 09:36:20 amQuoteA bit? it's an abuse of the word calibration. My Fluke model 45 service manual clearly states what they mean by verification and calibration:QuoteWhy does various Joe Blow 'calibration service' company get to redefine the word calibration to be contrary to common sense and Fluke, Webster, and to Joe average enthusiast.I supervised a Instrument Shop at a refinery for a couple of years and had to deal with 3rd party agreements, local quasi government inspectors, and incident investigations, etc. All that was ever questioned was is the calibration sticker expired or not.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 19, 2016, 12:13:57 pm
content: Quote from: retrolefty on February 19, 2016, 11:54:53 amThe long term drift record is "reset" once the unit is adjusted.QuoteOnce you adjust it you have lost the ability to see the long term drift trend over years. i.e. will if keep drifting in one direction, or will it come back. Does it cycle? etc.Once you adjust the instrument you should throw that data out the window and start again.If that's what youwantto do, then hey, that's your choice, but IME it's not how any large organisation I've worked for does it.Buy hey, it's all whatyouwant to achieve.QuoteThey quote whatever you ask them to quote.They'll tweak the EEpots nude whilst listening to wale songs if you pay them enough money.

author: rrinker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2016, 01:35:24 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on February 19, 2016, 12:13:57 pmThis is why I love this place.Having done precision mechanical measurement (QC checking jet engine parts), you don't want to mess with a given tool's history because that traceability becomes incredibly important. Parts we made were for several different engines, but mostly stuff that went into the F15. The production of many of these parts is traceable completely back to the day it was made, on which machine it was made, and who did the final check before shipping it out the door. Very precise stuff, down to the nearest 0.0001" (in DaveSpeak - less than half a bee's dick). What made it funny was that the owner of the business was an old time German machinist, used to doing hand work, not CNC stuff, at an order of magnitude or more looser tolerances and sometimes had trouble understanding why this stuff had to be kept so tight. The best was when the local US Navy development center brought us this sample of an aluminum casing with a weird pattern inside that the wanted us to duplicate, to a very tight tolerance. They wouldn't (and likely couldn't) tell us what it was, but I got a look at it and it was obviously a microwave waveguide of some sort. The owner and his right hand man (another old time German machinist) kept going on after the Navy people left about why does this stupid little box need to be made that precise...

author: Abbas
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2016, 04:42:15 pm
content: Dave maybe you could also try out testing them all at once in parallel! It would be something great and maybe also fun!And also I am curious what will happen if you connect all of them in series for a current measurement? World's largest chain current mesurement

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 20, 2016, 02:16:27 am
content: Quote from: Abbas on February 19, 2016, 04:42:15 pmBurden voltage demonstration.Would be an interesting one to do, actually. We can calculate the answer - but a graphic picture might make more of an impressionon some viewers.....

author: Abbas
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: February 20, 2016, 03:38:49 am
content: Quote from: Brumby on February 20, 2016, 02:16:27 amYeah that's what I thought of. Connecting 40 or more multimeter in series with a current load would show in a obviously way how burden voltage can affect the readings. It would be exactly appropriate since Dave has a mass of multimeters available at the momentHitting some birds with a stone

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 20, 2016, 08:50:16 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on February 18, 2016, 09:53:19 amAgreed, butifother conditions hold it might just be useful.A company I once worked for sold a very expensive attenuation meter with a 0.1dB accuracy and a 0.001dB stability and repeatability. The stability was important since it was used to detect smallchangesin attenuation over the course of a week or so.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 20, 2016, 10:48:22 am
content: Quote from: tggzzz on February 20, 2016, 08:50:16 amThe UT61E has data logging at a very low price so I guess you could use it for stuff like that if you calibrate the setup properly.But ... does the UT61E have the right stability for that? I don't know.Idoknow they skimp on every possible part to get the price down so I'm not confident.

author: hopski
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 20, 2016, 06:18:50 pm
content: I use a couple of UT61E's for data logging. I check them every month with a DMM plus tester and other references, no noticable drift for the last few months, but it they do drift as least I'll know by how much.

author: SeoulBigChris
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2017, 12:55:33 am
content: Regarding your engineering note pad, Australia uses seven-ring notebook binders?