Counterfeit Helium? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: macboy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2015, 06:56:22 pm
content: Apparently it's not just fake electronic components and yummy melamine-tainted baby formula to watch out for, but fake helium-filled balloons as well:I don't think helium does that.

author: Dr. Frank
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2015, 07:06:36 pm
content: Well, this kind of Helium first has to be fusioned from hydrogen..Frank

author: helius
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2015, 07:09:16 pm
content: Helium is a non-renewable resource and really shouldn't be used for entertainment. As seen in the video, the dangers of hydrogen balloons are overstated; they contain relatively little energy and, when ignited, the temperatures achieved are too cool to ignite much else. Keep in mind that that only a tiny percentage of party balloons will ever be exposed to open flames.

author: macboy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2015, 07:28:05 pm
content: Quote from: helius on July 15, 2015, 07:09:16 pmYes, because candles, sparklers, and fireworks are never seen at parties.

author: helius
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2015, 07:44:04 pm
content: Where I live, fireworks and sparklers are illegal. But everyone should be able to agree that lighting them indoors is reckless and a fire hazard.Really, what is more blatant, a balloon that catches fire, or a "candle" on a cake that more closely resembles a bunsen burner? There is only so much allowance you can make for total stupidity."A common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools."

author: babysitter
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2015, 07:50:43 pm
content: Quote from: helius on July 15, 2015, 07:44:04 pmAs soon as you design something foolproof, the fools get an update.

author: German_EE
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2015, 08:38:51 pm
content: Fun fact: The amount of hydrogen in a thermonuclear device is about a party balloon full.

author: ivan747
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2015, 10:34:25 pm
content: Quote from: babysitter on July 15, 2015, 07:50:43 pmOkay, that's my new signature.

author: boffin
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 16, 2015, 02:27:54 am
content: Quote from: helius on July 15, 2015, 07:44:04 pmKind of mind boggling that the United States can ban sparklers, but not guns.

author: edavid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2015, 02:51:14 am
content: Quote from: boffin on July 16, 2015, 02:27:54 amOnly 5 states ban sparklers.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2015, 04:15:43 am
content: When you have the kind of idiots that can't handle sparklers safely, why should you expect consistency in legislation? Remember this a country that generated a law stating that when two trains meet at a crossing "each must stop and wait for the other to pass". You can fill books with the idiocy of our laws.I love my country, but have to laugh because otherwise it hurts too much.

author: Paul Moir
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2015, 04:31:45 am
content: They have the right to bear arms written into their charter of rights and freedoms. Their founding fathers unfortunately did not consider the need to protect party favours.We on the other hand thought about what they had done for 200 years and then figured some language rights would be equally disruptive.

author: Melt-O-Tronic
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2015, 05:17:24 am
content: Quote from: helius on July 15, 2015, 07:09:16 pmA minor quibble: helium is constantly being produced naturally within the Earth. So it's certainly not a non-renewable resource. You could argue that it is being consumed & released into the atmosphere (where it rises) at a rate greater than natural production, but I don't think anyone can prove that one way or the other. Seems like a reasonable speculation though.

author: mtdoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2015, 05:23:06 am
content: Funny video. Reminds me of when I was in high school. We would fill up a balloon from an oxyacetylene welding tank then put it in a paper bag. Light the paper bag and stick it in a school garbage can. Someone sees the smoke, goes to investigate - and boom! Loud and scary but harmless, I think.... Ah, good times..

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2015, 06:02:57 am
content: I have my doubts that those baloons were filled with pure hydrogen.I've done that before and it's not that yellow when it burns.I reckon it's hydrogen mixed with something else to bring the buoyancy back to match helium. Maybe LPG or similar.Baloons filled with pure hydrogen don't behave like helium baloons. They dont want to "float away" they want to fly the f%#& away

author: rs20
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2015, 06:12:39 am
content: Quote from: helius on July 15, 2015, 07:09:16 pm+100.Quote from: Psi on July 16, 2015, 06:02:57 amI have my doubts that it's that easy to tell the difference -- the buoyancy of hydrogen w.r.t. air (1.12 kg/m^3) is only 7% more than that of helium (1.04kg/m^3). However, I think you're probably right that it's not pure hydrogen, on the basis of the flame colour.

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2015, 06:15:32 am
content: I found it very obvious to tell the differenceI'm not a chemist but do you have to take other things into account than just the buoyancy, like how densely both will pack into the same space under the pressure of the balloon

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2015, 06:23:42 am
content: Quote from: Psi on July 16, 2015, 06:02:57 amIt could be the camera, but it looks pretty close to pure hydrogen to me; here's another example:LPG burns slightly slower, and makes a more sooty flame because it has carbon.

author: rs20
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2015, 06:53:08 am
content: Quote from: Psi on July 16, 2015, 06:15:32 amGases don't "pack", the ideal gas law prevails to a very high level of precision at normal pressures (the pressure inside a balloon is 1 or 2 psi above atmospheric). If I may be so bold, I suspect the difference you observed was more likely to be caused by a different balloon material/size, or even two identical balloons filled to a different amount. But, perhaps you have a super-sensitive touch, 10% might be detectable I suppose. It's also very true that I may be missing something.My overarching point isn't to doubt you btw, just doubting whether the average joe public would notice the difference.

author: helius
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2015, 07:39:10 am
content: Quote from: Melt-O-Tronic on July 16, 2015, 05:17:24 amBy that logic, fossil plants are constantly being reformed by natural, geothermal processes into oil.The real problem is that there are only so many places where it's economical to collect it, which coincide with certain natural gas deposits. I have no idea if we are past "peak helium" or not, but without those gas wells it would be prohibitively expensive.

author: richard.cs
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2015, 09:42:09 am
content: Quote from: rs20 on July 16, 2015, 06:12:39 amI think you could tell the difference between a balloon filled with hydrogen and one filled with "balloon gas", the cheap option which is just enough helium to float and the remainder nitrogen. In the UK at least noone puts pure helium in balloons commercially. A H2and N2mix might work just as well and would reduce the available combustion energy.

author: Skimask
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2015, 12:03:00 pm
content: It's called "herium", pronounced "hee-ree-um"Used in a sentence..."I have a herium barroon"

author: cowana
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2015, 12:54:39 pm
content: Quote from: richard.cs on July 16, 2015, 09:42:09 amDensity of nitrogen: 1.165kg/m^3Density of helium: 0.164kg/m^3Density of balloon gas (70% helium, 30% nitrogen): 0.464kg/m^3Density of hydrogen: 0.082kg/m^3So for a 0.02m^3 balloon, the lift generated (assuming a zero mass balloon and 1atm pressure - not true, but fine for this comparison):Balloon gas: 12.3 grams liftHelium: 19.2 grams liftHydrogen: 21.1 grams liftAnd with a 10 gram balloon, this is a pretty convincing result - 5 times the net lift for hydrogen over balloon gas.Balloon gas: 2.3 grams net liftHelium: 9.2 grams net liftHydrogen: 11.1 grams net lift

author: Melt-O-Tronic
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2015, 01:04:39 pm
content: Quote from: helius on July 16, 2015, 07:39:10 amOh yeah, I forgot. All the organic matter that became fossil fuels was put into place at one time. On a Tuesday.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 16, 2015, 01:23:06 pm
content: Quote from: richard.cs on July 16, 2015, 09:42:09 amToo expensive. Could be methane or natural gas.

author: DenzilPenberthy
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2015, 01:35:19 pm
content: Hehe, this reminds me of this poem my Mum used to read my when I was really small (and displaying tendencies towards taking things apart!!)George, Who played with a Dangerous Toy,and suffered a Catastrophe of considerable Dimensionsby Hilaire Belloc (1870-1953)When George’s Grandmamma was toldThat George had been as good as gold,She promised in the afternoonTo buy him an Immense BALLOON.And so she did; but when it came,It got into the candle flame,And being of a dangerous sortExploded with a loud report!The lights went out! The windows broke!The room was filled with reeking smoke.And in the darkness, shrieks and yellsWere mingled with electric bells,And falling masonry and groans,And crunching, as of broken bones,And dreadful shrieks, when, worst of all,The house itself began to fall!It tottered, shuddering to and fro,Then crashed into the street below -Which happened to be Savile Row.When help arrived, among the deadWere Cousin Mary, Little Fred,The Footmen (both of them), the Groom,The man that cleaned the Billiard-Room,The Chaplain, and the Still-Room Maid.And I am dreadfully afraidThat Monsieur Champignon, the Chef,Will now be permanently deaf -And both his aides are much the same;While George, who was in part to blame,Received, you will regret to hear,A nasty lump behind the ear.Moral:The moral is that little boysShould not be given dangerous toys.

author: Mechanical Menace
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2015, 04:30:51 pm
content: Quote from: edavid on July 16, 2015, 03:15:40 pmIt's produced as a by-product of fission. Almost anything that produces alpha particles during radioactive decay will end up with those helium nuclei capturing electrons when they interact with matter. Where you have thorium and uranium deposits you generally have lots of rock...

author: Dave Turner
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2015, 04:32:20 pm
content: Since helium doesn't burn it's not involved in this video.Am I mistaken or is the supposed cord that the man is holding more like a stick? I half suspect that the balloons are at about neutral buoyancy so probably not hydrogen either.On a lighter point my old chemistry teacher back in the 60's used to create an enormous soap bubble filled with gas from the bunsen burner outlets (natural gas) that nearly filled the upper third of the chemistry lab. One of the thirty odd students would then be allowed to ignite it.Phutt! A flash of light and no singed hairs.Great fun & perfectly safe but I doubt one could get away with it these days.

author: Mechanical Menace
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2015, 04:35:10 pm
content: Quote from: Dave Turner on July 16, 2015, 04:32:20 pmThey still did 10-15 years ago, I could ask my little brother if any of his teachers have given that demo if you're really interested?

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2015, 04:56:47 pm
content: Quote from: helius on July 15, 2015, 07:09:16 pmThat's why the anti helium is for, even more fun.

author: ez24
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2015, 05:53:20 pm
content: the complete videoFrom about 1:30 to 2:30 no one is in the video, I think they are all cleaning their hairDarwin missed these folks.

author: Artlav
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2015, 09:47:33 pm
content: Quote from: helius on July 15, 2015, 07:09:16 pmWell...If it's pure hydrogen, then yes.If it got mixed with oxygen, then there will be one heck of a bang.

author: continuo
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2015, 10:49:28 pm
content: Meanwhile, in the Netherlands...

author: TerraHertz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2015, 05:58:42 am
content: @continuoBeautiful! Those are some forward-thinking guys!Shame about that cake too. But they probably should think themselves lucky the balloon vendor didn't electrolyze water to combined H and O. Aka 'boom gas'. We can be sure he didn't, because the stuff is so static sensitive that rubbing the balloons together would have set it off.If you want rare Helium, try getting some He3.

author: BradC
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2015, 06:05:52 am
content: Quote from: zapta on July 16, 2015, 04:56:47 pmSF6?

author: rs20
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2015, 06:30:57 am
content: Regarding the exploding cannon, there's some people that don't understand that you need an "explosive" that burns at just the right speed; rather than detonating like a LPG/oxygen mixture

author: XOIIO
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2015, 07:31:15 am
content: Ah that was great, best video I've seen in a bit. I guess hydrogen is cheaper than helium (or seems like it could be considering you can make it with salt water and electricity). I bet if it was sold as helium though that place would get shut down.

author: DenzilPenberthy
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2015, 10:15:48 am
content: Quote from: TerraHertz on July 17, 2015, 05:58:42 amGot several litres of liquid He3 in one of the labs in the building I work in. Apparently it's expensive. Really expensive!

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2015, 10:17:16 am
content: Hydrogen blended with N2, so as not to leak away so fast ( the balloon material might as well not be there for plain H2, it will diffuse out within a day at STP) and to keep the cylinder from doing the same. Thus the burning will only occur at the gas/air interface, which is visible in the video. If it was a more evenly mixed H2 and O2 blend the windows would have left.Remember Hydrogen is explosive between 5% and 95% concentration in air, so you really want to have burning occurring at a small interface volume.

author: TerraHertz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2015, 10:54:04 am
content: Quote from: DenzilPenberthy on July 17, 2015, 10:15:48 amWow. Several liters of liquid He3 is a national treasure. Have you heard anyone quote an actual value? I'd like to know.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helium-3I came across how valuable/rare it is, when reading that neutron detectors use He3, but it's in such short supply that there are problems making them.

author: Yansi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2015, 11:05:13 am
content: Quote from: rs20 on July 16, 2015, 06:53:08 amDidn't you mean 0.1 to 0.2psi? More realistic I think ;-)

author: Hypernova
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 18, 2015, 01:18:49 pm
content: This reminds me of this time during intermediate school. We has these science fair guys come in and they lit two balloons, one with oxygen which burned like the one in the video. The other was pure hydrogen but it went with a bang not the slow burn in the video. I remember seeing briefly a balloon shaped blue ball of light and then it was gone.

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2015, 01:50:27 pm
content: This is the explosion with a perfect mix of hydrogen and oxygen ("HHO"):

author: wagon
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2015, 01:56:52 pm
content: I used to make 'propane' balloons when I was a mere lad. Good times.

author: N2IXK
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2015, 03:07:46 pm
content: We did similar things with a mixture of oxygen and acetylene when we were kids. A balloon full will make one hell of a bang!

author: max666
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2015, 03:50:00 pm
content: Quote from: DenzilPenberthy on July 17, 2015, 10:15:48 amI question that. Several litres of liquid He4 I believe, because that would already be expensive, but several litres of liquid He3 must be ludicrously expensive.EDIT: You said several litres? Several would mean at least 2 litres I'm assuming, so 2 litres of liquid He3 would be 2 l * 56 g/l = 112 g if I'm not mistaken.So 112 g / (3 g/mol) = 18.7 mol of He3. That would be 18.7 mol * 22.4 l/mol = 418 litres of gaseous He3.According to wikipedia He3 goes from $ 100/l to $ 2 000/l, so that would be worth between $ 84 000 to $ 1 700 000. (Actually 2 litres liquid He4 would only cost $ 4 in comparison)So I guess my only question is what did you do with it?Quote from:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helium-3#Production

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 19, 2015, 12:48:40 am
content: Quote from: max666 on July 18, 2015, 03:50:00 pmInterestingly wikipedia seems to be missing the use that drove up the prices of he3 so much, accurate detection of ionising radiation. The cryo applications are very cool (ha ha ha) and most labs with liquid on hand would have it for that, gas storage is typical for fusion labs.

author: Homer J Simpson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 19, 2015, 01:09:05 am
content: Don't forget about Silly String.

author: max666
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 19, 2015, 01:38:53 am
content: Or corn starch powder.

author: Hypernova
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 19, 2015, 08:07:43 am
content: Quote from: max666 on July 19, 2015, 01:38:53 amAh that, it's been dominating the news here for weeks now. The whole colour powder shenanigan has been gaining popularity here for that past year.This week the government has announced they are banning any use of flammable powder in public.

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 19, 2015, 08:39:57 am
content: Quote from: Hypernova on July 19, 2015, 08:07:43 amWhite flour is now banned, you may not use flour in public.

author: rs20
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 19, 2015, 08:43:23 am
content: Quote from: Hypernova on July 19, 2015, 08:07:43 amI'm not sure if this is what Psi is obliquely getting at; but how did they define "flammable"? It's hardly a unambiguous term, I mean corn starch wouldn't ordinarily be described as flammable, at least as a bulk solid.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 19, 2015, 08:54:33 am
content: Quote from: rs20 on July 19, 2015, 08:43:23 amUm, yes, it would. Search "dust explosion" and "flour mill" and see how dangerous it is.

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 19, 2015, 08:56:01 am
content: yep, flour is super explosive when floating in the air

author: rs20
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 19, 2015, 09:15:50 am
content: Quote from: IanB on July 19, 2015, 08:54:33 am

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 19, 2015, 09:17:56 am
content: Sugar as well, you can made a big blast with either corn starch, baby powder, icing sugar or even headache powders.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 19, 2015, 10:24:51 am
content: Quote from: IanB on July 19, 2015, 08:54:33 amThat's only because it's mixed with air, try detonating a bag of corn flour in a bag without dispersing it into the air first. It won't even burn that well!

author: rs20
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 19, 2015, 12:53:46 pm
content: Quote from: Hero999 on July 19, 2015, 10:24:51 amExactly, hence why I'm asking how this government is defining "flammable". Flammability very much depends on the conditions that the material is in.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 19, 2015, 04:11:09 pm
content: Laws don't require a rational basis. They only need some evidence that the politicians are "doing something" to solve the problem du jour.Safety agencies usually at least try to do something rational, but they aren't always in control, and sometimes don't have the sharpest tool in the shed on the spot everywhere.

author: Hypernova
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 19, 2015, 04:27:18 pm
content: Ok, I've tried to find what the order is in writing instead of just what I heard on the news. Basically the definition is "...any finely divisible solid, that when spread in the air and encounters open-flame, static, spark etc, are at risk of ignition or explosion". Well that basically covers any powder aside from snow flakes and sand.

author: N2IXK
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 19, 2015, 05:19:32 pm
content: Non-Dairy coffee creamer powder works great, as well...

author: DenzilPenberthy
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 20, 2015, 11:59:55 am
content: Quote from: max666 on July 18, 2015, 03:50:00 pmRight, I'd better go and check that I'm not talking a load of bo**ocks. I remember someone telling me we have several litres of some rare isotope of Helium. Is there another one other than He3 it could be? We've got shed-loads of normal liquid helium. (University physics department with a low-temperatures research group plus lots of other groups doing interesting things with very cold things.) All the boil-off gas is piped back centrally and re-compressed. In fact the technician who looks after this stuff in an EEVBlog fan so let's see if he spots this!

author: TerraHertz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 20, 2015, 01:30:52 pm
content: Quote from: Hypernova on July 19, 2015, 04:27:18 pmIf only we could finely powder the politicians and spread them in the air.

author: Melt-O-Tronic
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 20, 2015, 02:00:32 pm
content: Quote from: TerraHertz on July 20, 2015, 01:30:52 pmI nominate this for "best post of the thread".

author: max666
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 20, 2015, 06:20:11 pm
content: Quote from: DenzilPenberthy on July 20, 2015, 11:59:55 amWell He3 and He4 are the only stable ones, and the half-life of all the others is under one second. Is it possible he meant several litres gaseous He3?I'm all for recovering and recycling helium, and to use it for balloons is just not right. On the other hand I have a hard time advocating for flammable mixtures in balloons, because of the primary audience who's playing with those balloons. You can't expect children to handle them responsibly and candles and shit are often not far away. It's like Dave always says "Murphy will get you ...", and if there's something that can go wrong, it will go wrong.

author: Stray Electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2015, 11:04:39 pm
content: Quote from: mtdoc on July 16, 2015, 05:23:06 amWe'd soak string in a Potassium Nitrate solution and then let it dry. Next we'd make our own hydrogen gas and fill balloons with it and tie them shut with the string, light the end of the string and let it go! A few minutes later and several hundred feet in the air we'd get a nice bang! We actually filled acondomfull of hydrogen and did the same thing once! That sucker grew to about 18 inches in diameter and 5 feet long! When it blew all you heard was LOUD, LOW,WOOMP!Alarms went off all over town! Yes, I was The Menace in my home town! I think I was eventually hired by the USG just out a sense of self preservation!

author: Stray Electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2015, 11:06:47 pm
content: Quote from: babysitter on July 15, 2015, 07:50:43 pmAs soon as you invent something that's idiot proof, someone invents better idiots!

author: richard.cs
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2015, 09:43:30 am
content: When I was at university (a few years ago now) the general guide I was given was that liquid nitrogen was about the price of milk, liquid helium 4 about the price of supermarket wine and liquid helium 3 comparable to vintage whiskey.we had our own liquifiers and as a result had pretty much unlimited liquid nitrogen for general messing about (and low temperature research too of course).

author: VK3DRB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2015, 12:33:08 am
content: Quote from: helius on July 15, 2015, 07:09:16 pmIt should be banned world-wide for use in bloody party balloons. The world is running out of sources of Helium gas and by 2030, it may be near impossible to get for some medical equipment such as MRI scanners.

author: johansen
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2015, 01:04:08 am
content: Quote from: VK3DRB on July 25, 2015, 12:33:08 amthere is a metric crap ton of it being blown out of natural gas wells and other natural gas flares on oil wells.its just not expensive enough to bother capturing yet.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2015, 08:16:38 am
content: Treble the price so it is not going to be used for balloons, and it will be captured from LNG plants and condensed. Biggest user though is in precision welding, where the ability to remove weld heat makes it possible to weld some very complex alloys used in industry. Pretty difficult to recycle it there, so your industrial plant manufacturing will become more expensive, along with IC manufacture, as it is also used as a carrier gas, though there it is a more easily recycled gas as it is in an enclosed system, and can easily be cleaned there with molecular sieves.