PCB Manufacturing at Home - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Legion
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2014, 02:01:35 pm
content: With 3D printers coming down in price and becoming more popular, do you guys think PCB manufacturing equipment for home use will similarly come down in price and scale / exist?Would it ever be practical to make your own PCBs with proper solder masks, silk screening, pick and place, etc?

author: XOIIO
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2014, 02:03:22 pm
content: Well, eventually yes, but not for quite some time, you can still do some pick and place at home if you want to make a machine, I'm unsure of the silk screen process, but people have done DIY solder mask.I've always wanted to try and make my own but I don't know where I would dispose of the chemicals after.

author: sleemanj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2014, 02:15:14 pm
content: Home etching is simple and a useful skill, for prototypes. It is not, and never will be for serious production.Small p&p machines like the TM220A (model off the top of my head might be wrong) however are available for a few thousand bucks and are being used in small from-home production, of course with professionally fab'd pcb and paste stencils.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2014, 03:23:48 pm
content: Home etching is a useful skill to have but if you can wait, it's better to get the boards professionally made.A silk screen can be made using toner transfer and encapsulating it with a spray on conformal coating. It's black as opposed to white, unless you use coloured toner but it's definitely worthwile as it makes assembly and fault finding easier.

author: XOIIO
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2014, 03:26:02 pm
content: Quote from: Hero999 on May 05, 2014, 03:23:48 pmDid you make that board yourself? It looks great.I'd just love to be able to spin out a board whenever I need it, for now I've done a couple from osh park.

author: Legion
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2014, 06:08:53 pm
content: I was thinking it'd be nice for things that aren't hand solderable like BGAs and avoiding the costs of small runs for prototypes.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2014, 06:32:47 pm
content: Quote from: XOIIO on May 05, 2014, 03:26:02 pmThanks i built it myself.It's not that difficult. I didn't even use any special proprietary paper for the toner transfer, just paper from an old magazine. The glossy coating acts as a release agent. It's possible to use ordinary printer paper but it needs soaking for longer.

author: electronics man
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2014, 06:38:45 pm
content: If you just want to try it for a few boards it may actually be cheaper to get them professionally made, especially as home brew PCBs have such a low yield is so low it can be as bad as 5 failed boards for every good one, then there is the problem of drilling them, you need a good drill press wich will set you back a lot of money, so no I don't think home production will become cheep and easy. But I do think manufaturers will get cheaper and it will be easier to get PCBs made properly.

author: rdl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2014, 07:19:03 pm
content: I've wondered if 3D printing could somehow be used to print resist directly onto a board. I think the plastic used will dissolve in acetone just like toner. So if it wasn't too thick it might work.

author: 128er
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2014, 08:25:34 pm
content: SilkQuote from: sleemanj on May 05, 2014, 02:15:14 pmFully agree with that.Etching PCBs by yourself is not that hard. In january I've made my first PCBs. The materials costs me about 50€ (including chemicals and all stuff). Works all fine at first try. Even though, I thought it would be hard to etch thin traces, or traces between SMD pads - piece of cake.If your project is not overcomplicated, I would prefer the homebrew way. A tiny PCB, single sided, is etched and drilled in two hours (~30parts, ~80 drill-holes, 80x50mm PCB). I am using a PROXXON drill stand with a ordinary hand drill and make 0.5mm holes. If you use SMD parts, drilling is almost obsolete. You can get these drill stands for 50€.EDIT:Here is a really nice video about 4-layer PCB manufacturing:

author: XOIIO
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2014, 08:28:31 pm
content: Check local classifieds for drill presses too, I got a nice one for $50, which was cheaper than the set of drill bits I bought.

author: Fred27
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 05, 2014, 08:35:53 pm
content: You can get some great results making PCBs at home if that's the sort of thing you enjoy. I've only recently got into it and an happily doing TSSOP and 0603. I'll try LQFP soon.I'd recommend presensitised photo resist boards over toner transfer if you're after quality. Also, Dynamask 5000 dry film solder mask is excellent. Take a look here to see what can be done.http://www.instructables.com/id/Dry-Film-Solder-Mask/Almost all my boards turn out well and the turn around is hours.Another alternative is isolation routing boards. The bonus here is that you can go straight to drilling and routing out your board with perfect alignment.One of mine (before routing out):http://0xfred.wordpress.com/2014/02/28/further-pcb-improvements/

author: Legion
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2014, 09:09:24 pm
content: Quote from: Fred27 on May 05, 2014, 08:35:53 pmThat looks really good. I didn't know you could do solder mask, I'll check it out.

author: jancumps
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 05, 2014, 09:25:59 pm
content: It's almost back to the mid 80s, when I used to do single layer through-hole myself. I've come to the age of laziness now, and order my boards from OSHPark. But the results of Fred make me think about trying home-brew once again.

author: Mike S
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2014, 09:40:09 pm
content: I enjoy making my own boards, but it takes me a good 4 to 6 hours to etch a board and finish with a screen printed solder mask. If I was more skilled at PCB layout, I wouldn't be ashamed to sell a homemade board.This example is a little messy. I was experimenting with DIY thermal vias.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2014, 09:57:56 pm
content: Quote from: electronics man on May 05, 2014, 06:38:45 pmNot if you don't push the tolerances too tight and do it properly. My boards have only ever failed due to design errors, never from poor etching.Quote from: Fred27 on May 05, 2014, 08:35:53 pmYou know what. I use both methods, depending on what I'm dong.QuoteThanks for that. I didn't realise it was so easy to add a solder mask.

author: jancumps
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 05, 2014, 10:25:06 pm
content: It's used over here at the local electronics store and at my son's school.The electronics students (age 17-18) are making their project with milled PCBs.The mill at the local store and at school is the same one. Each year when it is the open school day, the mill moves from the store to the school's lab.

author: 128er
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2014, 10:27:15 pm
content: Quote from: 3roomlab on May 05, 2014, 10:20:32 pmWell, surely it is a good technique. Without chemicals, drilling can be automated. But the problem is obviously . . . you must have a expensive mill. Not everyone have the money, or the space, or, or . . .

author: lemmegraphdat
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2014, 10:57:33 pm
content: Quote from: Legion on May 05, 2014, 02:01:35 pmThe 3D printer will become the home PCB making machine. Probably will make all the parts too accept the chips maybe.

author: janoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2014, 11:04:22 pm
content: Quote from: lemmegraphdat on May 05, 2014, 10:57:33 pmWhy to bother with 3D printing? People print resist using modified inkjets already. Some used plotters too. However, the toner transfer or photo-lithography are still the best if you want to make boards at home.

author: lemmegraphdat
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2014, 11:11:23 pm
content: Quote from: janoc on May 05, 2014, 11:04:22 pmDump some powdered stuff in the front end and a populated PCB comes out the back end. Not as cool as the Mister Fusion, but cool.

author: sleemanj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2014, 01:49:10 am
content: Quote from: 3roomlab on May 06, 2014, 01:40:39 amMills are slow, noisy, dirty, low resolution, tricky to setup, complicated to operate, and expensive.You can print an artwork on any printer, laminate dry film with a clothes iron, and expose to the sun, develop in washing soda, and etch quickly cleanly and fairly safely in HCL+H202 which you do not need to dispose of (use forever, just add bubbled air, or H202).I think milling PCB's is an exercise in honing your mechanical skills, not an exercise in producing PCBs. Which is fine if you enjoy honing your mechanical skills. The only advantage of milling is getting an automated drill "for free". Which given the progression to SMD, is almost a moot point.

author: electrolux
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2014, 08:47:14 am
content: probably yes in a billion years, but I think it will always be cheaper to get them in china.

author: Fred27
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 06, 2014, 09:32:30 am
content: Quote from: 128er on May 05, 2014, 10:27:15 pmI've also done PCB milling on a fairly cheap Proxxon MF70 mill that I converted to CNC myself. It worked well. The only issue I had was that the cuts are deeper than if you etch and this made laminating the solder mask on a little harder - it ended up a bit thin in places.With all these things, making a PCB is great if you're enjoying the process and challenge. If you'd rather just have the board in front of you and get on with the rest of your project, then getting it from one of the many PCB fab houses is very cost effective.

author: jeremy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2014, 09:36:22 am
content: I'm curious now! I haven't looked into diy PCBs for a while, but this is making me want to give it another shot! Can anyone fill me in with a link to the latest and greatest methods? Looks like everyone has moved on from FeCl.

author: poorchava
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2014, 10:20:47 am
content: My method (dry film):-print artwork on drafting paper-clean laminate with fine sandpaper (eg. 1000 grit) or abrasive cleaning powder-wash laminate thoroughly. Pay attention that there are absolutely no debris on the surface-peel away one side of protective foil from dry film-submerge both pcb and dry film in CLEAN water-use soft (eg. silicone) tool to squeeze water from underneath the film, leave to dry-when dry pass through laminator once or twice to cure the glue between copper and the film-expose in UV (choose exposure time experimentally, in my case with nail polish curing lamp it's 15-20s)-develop in sodium bicarbonate (easily available on all countries I think). Make sure that unexposed parts are washed away entirely-etch in hydrochloric acid and hydrogen peroxide mix. Proportions I use with 30-33% HCl and 35% H2O2 are 5:5:1 acid/water/peroxide. If you can't get strong peroxide, you can use 1:2 ratio acid/pharmacy grade 3% peroxide.-done

author: 128er
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2014, 12:02:27 pm
content: You can get very good results with HCL and H2O2. BUT - be carefull. I collect the used etching solution to dispose it later at the local recycling point. Directly after the process the etching solution degasses. After every PCB process, I dont completely close the bottle and let it stand outdoor for a few days. Until all gas escaped. And then i close it.One time I forgot it. And that happens . . .There was a bang and a loud hissing. I was so scared, I thought my heart stopsIn my opinion thats the only disadvantage of HCL+H2O2. But, dont matter which chemicals you use, you always have to be carefull. By the way, I buy the chemicals in the local drugstore. 1L H2O2 and 1L HCL = ~15€Edit:How can I insert attachments in the text?

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2014, 12:08:48 pm
content: Quote from: electronics man on May 05, 2014, 06:38:45 pmOnly if your process is frighteningly sloppy. It really isn't that hard.QuoteIf you want to do high volumes quickly, yes, if you just want to do a few you can get by fairly easily without.QuoteIt already is.

author: sleemanj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2014, 12:36:49 pm
content: Quote from: 128er on May 06, 2014, 12:02:27 pmYou don't need to dispose of it which is one of the reasons to use it. Once "used" it becomes naturally Cupric Chloride, which in turn is the primary etchant from then on, all you add is a cap of H202 to reoxygenante (or even just bubble air through), good as new.I've not had such an explosive outgassing problem as you did. I keep the etchant in my "etch bath" which has a lid, put the lid back on when done, when I next use it I add a cap of H202 and stir. The lid on my "etch bath" is a press-fit seal which would safely pop off if pressure built up.Of course all chemicals should be stored in suitable containers in safe locations, not inside your house, especially for HCl, for which the slightest vapours will corrode any metal nearby like crazy.

author: Fred27
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 06, 2014, 12:52:14 pm
content: The thing that puts me off the CuCl etching is the corrosive HCl vapours. In my workshop there's a CNC mill, a lathe and a laser cutter plus loads of other tools. I think I'll stick to ferric chloride and keep those rust free.

author: mamalala
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 06, 2014, 02:52:43 pm
content: Guess it all depends on how much effort one wants to spend on it. Using the photo-method it is easy to get quick and reproducible, consistent results. It's always nice if you can have the board ready to solder in an hour, instead of having to wait weeks. With some more effort it's also possible to do your own double-sided and through-plated boards at home, without the need to use too many nasty chemicals (only the copper-electrolyte, NaOh for stripping the resist, and the etchant), see images.Hint: You can make drilling a lot easier. Take one of those really cheap balck/white camera modules. Mount it under the table/drill-press, looking up (see bohr_1.jpg). Then take a cheap and small black/white camping TV with video input. Reverse the polarity of either the north-south or the east-west deflection coil, depending on how you mounted the cam. Make s imple circuit that overlays a crosshair that you can position freely, done. I used a PIC micro that has a comparator built in, to detect the sync in the video signal, which then simply pulls a pin low, high or input, connected to the video signal, using an interrupt, to generate the crosshair. Two ADC inputs are used for two potentiometers to adjust the X/Y position of the crosshair. Center the crosshair to where the drill will come out, done.That allows quick and easy positioning of the PCB on the drill press.Greetings,ChrisETA: FeCl3 is just fine for etching. It's quick, lasts long, and doesn't produce any nasty gasses. Just be carful with spilling/drops, since it tints most of the stuff it comes in contact with. Works fine att room temp, and even better if made luke-warm.

author: jamesglanville
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2014, 03:36:49 pm
content: I might be crazy, but don't discount doodling PCBs by hand with a fine sharpie. I routinely make boards down to 0.6mm pitch this way, simply because it's really quick and saves the CAD stage for simple boards. I have access to laser printers, and a fairly decent pcb mill (converted proxxon mf70) but still end up doing stuff by hand frequently.Here's my atmega328 tqfp breakout board:and my ADUM3160 USB isolator:Obviously useless for production, but I don't make more than 1 or 2 of any board typically so this works for me.

author: Galenbo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2014, 05:43:25 pm
content: Quote from: 128er on May 05, 2014, 10:27:15 pmI have one, Isel. It makes a lot of noise and dust for hours to mill something.

author: mamalala
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 06, 2014, 07:20:09 pm
content: Quote from: Galenbo on May 06, 2014, 05:43:25 pmWhich is why i never really understood why people want to use them. It's dirty, it's noisy, it takes a long time, etc. Sure, you need two chemicals when doing boards with the photo metond. But it's faster, less dirty, and as a bonus you don't change the electrical characteristics of the board too much (milling takes away material, after all, and the geometry is defined by the tools geometry). Oh, and you get better resolution to begin with. Any good laserprinter can produce a film used to expose a photo-sensitive board. Expose, develop, etch, drill, and be done. Maybe use a CNC to do the drilling, if the boards are too large or have too many holes or one is too lazy.Greetings,Chris

author: SirNick
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2014, 11:16:02 pm
content: I was all excited about home etching stuff a couple years ago. I used Express PCB, so even small boards were pretty expensive. I switched to OSH Park, which is cheap and quick enough to be feasible for home projects, but expensive and slow enough that I tend to be a little more cautious about trying to get the design right the first time.I've pretty much given up on the idea now because my designs aren't getting any simpler... Current one in CAD has over 500 holes -- and that'swithSMD parts. (Vias to ground and power planes, connectors that use through-holes, etc.) It's possible to do PTH now, but I'm not sure how many multi-hundred-hole boards I would be willing to make before I went crawling back to a fab house.Who knows though. Might still give it a shot for the less than 20-part one-off boards.

author: sleemanj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2014, 11:28:23 pm
content: Quote from: mamalala on May 06, 2014, 02:52:43 pmThe sodium carbonate you use to develop will happily strip also, just takes 15 minutes soak or so in a stronger warm solution. If you're in a hurry an acetone bath will remove it in a few seconds.Just reduces the number of dangerous-for-skin-contact chemicals required by 1