Kickstarter: Wirebutter - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: rthorntn
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 08, 2016, 11:27:15 pm
content: Hi,I'm a bit of a beginner with electronics, does this project look feasible:https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/2120665567/wirebutter-smart-powerboard/Red flags around all the testing and certification costs to work with mains power in a bunch of countries would probably cost a lot more than the A$59K target?Thanks.Richard

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 09, 2016, 12:01:18 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on November 08, 2016, 11:44:47 pmEasy for you to say, but can youbuyone for $50? What it'd cost you or I to whip one up for has little to do with what's a reasonable retail price.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 09, 2016, 12:03:09 am
content: Not speaking to the validity of the product (I just scrolled through the page and looked at the pictures).$165 is not a bad price. You can't do it cheaper with similar slick industrial design and proposed apps.They won't need FCC certification if they use off the shelf certified modules. There is a problem if you use more than one at a time, but it resolvable much cheaper than full-blown certification.I don't know if they will actually need UL certification for KS type of product. And KS can be used to actually kick start the real product.They still ask too little. There is no way they can order injection molded parts for all country variations for $45k.PS: Yeah, and the whole idea of smart socket with iPhone app is kind of stupid, but so is most of the newly invented stuff.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 09, 2016, 12:07:09 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on November 09, 2016, 12:06:10 amAnd if you include that, you will get a number way higher than $170. That's the point of having a commercial product.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 09, 2016, 12:12:00 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on November 09, 2016, 12:08:33 amI'm not sure in what cases unintentional radiation actually has to be tested. I think most of the time you just claim compliance somehow.And KS units can be shipped as prototypes/dev.kits, so they won't need certification either.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 09, 2016, 12:23:40 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on November 09, 2016, 12:15:22 amWell, obviously they need to make sure that it does not actually radiate a lot of noise. But this can be reasonably done in-house.Quote from: blueskull on November 09, 2016, 12:15:22 amI don't see how this thing is any more different than any other form-factor dev. kit. It is obviously shipped though a KS campaign, which naturally attracts people willing to mess with the thing, update the firmware, etc. I really believe this is a valid argument. Plus KS distribution is fairly limited.When they want to scale this for actual production, they will have to get all the certification, but by that time they will have a very tangible product (or nothing), so getting some financing should not be a big deal.

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 09, 2016, 12:24:30 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on November 09, 2016, 12:06:10 amSo your point is that it's overpriced because it, as a complete working assembly, is more than its raw parts costs.You're beginning to sound like the stereotypical Chinese cousin/Jewish uncle/Indian brother-in-law who can 'get it for you wholesale'.

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 09, 2016, 12:35:58 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on November 09, 2016, 12:28:09 amThat's not where you started from. You started from a dismissive "No, thanks. I can build one for $50.". Not quite the same thing.

author: hendorog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 09, 2016, 07:11:28 am
content: Not sure if they have changed the pricing, or I've missed something, or if you guys are smoking something fun, but the KS pricing _is_ USD 50 right now.

author: hendorog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 09, 2016, 07:20:57 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on November 09, 2016, 07:15:44 am65 AUD = 50 USD

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 09, 2016, 07:27:51 am
content: There is still no way they are getting injection moldings for 4 country variations for $45K. Well, may be barely, but there is other stuff as well.

author: hendorog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 09, 2016, 07:33:16 am
content: Quote from: ataradov on November 09, 2016, 07:27:51 amThey are just changing the inserts though, how much can that cost?The really bleedin obvious thing missing is IFTTT integration

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 09, 2016, 07:38:27 am
content: Quote from: hendorog on November 09, 2016, 07:33:16 amI don't think you can get away with just the inserts. EU and UK models are substantially different from the other two, and there will be a visible seam on the flat surface if you just change the inserts, no matter how good your machining is.If they could somehow make all things circular with the same diameter, then the seam can go inside the circle

author: hendorog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 09, 2016, 07:47:54 am
content: Quote from: ataradov on November 09, 2016, 07:38:27 amYes you are right - going by their own pics the UK version has square inserts and the rest are circular.Maybe they can get away with two base mouldings though:- UK, and everyone else.I don't think the visible seam matters - it doesn't matter to Apple as they do the same thing on their laptop adapters.

author: hendorog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 09, 2016, 07:54:11 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on November 09, 2016, 07:25:50 amOne crazy thing with the pricing is that the 2 unit package costs more than double the single unit package.65x2 = 130 or you can get a bundle of 2 for 160.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 09, 2016, 07:55:33 am
content: Quote from: hendorog on November 09, 2016, 07:54:11 amThat's what last minute price change does for you

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 09, 2016, 07:57:12 am
content: This looks like just another load monitoring power strip, like numerous ones already being produced in China. In fact, the style of it looks like something which started its life in China. The price seems unreasonably high. A thing like this can be made pretty cheap, as long as the volume is sufficient to amortise the mouldings.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 09, 2016, 08:03:19 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on November 09, 2016, 08:01:42 am4 power channels can be monitored for <$1 with 0.5% accuracy. Hardly a major cost.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 09, 2016, 08:03:22 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on November 09, 2016, 08:01:42 amBut those things actually exist in a real world, this one is a fantasy at the moment.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 09, 2016, 08:05:18 am
content: Quote from: coppice on November 09, 2016, 08:03:19 amCare to elaborate?

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 09, 2016, 08:06:07 am
content: Quote from: ataradov on November 09, 2016, 08:03:22 amWhy is this one a fantasy? There are a number of power strips with wireless monitoring and switching for each outlet.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 09, 2016, 08:08:47 am
content: Quote from: coppice on November 09, 2016, 08:06:07 amBecause it is a KS campaign at the moment, asking for a ridiculously low amount of money. If they had a warehouse of 100000 of them, I can see a price of $50, or even $100, if their software is decent.But at the moment they don't exist. And for them to exist at that $50 price, A LOT more people need to order. There is no "scale" in making 1000 units.

author: Kean
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 09, 2016, 08:12:14 am
content: Quote from: hendorog on November 09, 2016, 07:33:16 amNope, they'll also need to completely redesign all the internal stamped metal parts for the electrical contacts, and also probably have slighly different moulds for the main housings to accommodate those and the necessary isolation barriers. Also, to me it doesn't look like there is enough depth for the European (Schuko?) pins in their render, so that is another variation.Then they'll need to pay many times for the various country safety tests, which is significantly more than an unintentional radiator test. Plus product liability insurance in each country they intend to sell into (They may try to bypass this for KS.)They appear to have the electronics and software prototypes, and 3D printed samples of the housing, and think that taking it into mass production is simple - e.g. see their reply in the comments re certification. Although they have electrical engineers on the team, it doesn't sound like they have actual experience with product manufacturing.Why does it need BT, WiFi, Zigbee, Ethernet, and Powerline networking. Surely you're better off having them independant for "future proofing". Also, I'm not a fan of them using metal buttons on a mains powered device, even/especially if it is prototype.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 09, 2016, 08:18:04 am
content: Quote from: ataradov on November 09, 2016, 08:05:18 amI'm only talking about the measurement. The power supply and radio stuff would obviously cost more on top of that. There are several ways to provide 4 channels of high accuracy wide dynamic range measurement for $1. What people are currently looking for is solutions which slash that price, and there are some. Just look around the utility metering market.

author: hendorog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 09, 2016, 08:20:54 am
content: Quote from: Kean on November 09, 2016, 08:12:14 amWhy couldn't they just use the EU version as the 'standard' base, and then make inserts for the other two options that fit the same socket?Maybe it's cheaper to not use inserts at all and just remould the base for each country. I'm just taking the hint from the way the renders look on their site.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 09, 2016, 08:21:25 am
content: Quote from: Kean on November 09, 2016, 08:12:14 amThere are designs which work by just changing inserts, and fudge things around near the contacts. I'm not sure that really provides a benefit over a complete change of the moulding, though. It seems to just make things more complex.

author: hendorog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 09, 2016, 08:40:24 am
content: I just took a punt on it, will see what happens...

author: Kilrah
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 09, 2016, 08:43:58 am
content: Quote from: Kean on November 09, 2016, 08:12:14 am

author: Kean
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 09, 2016, 09:00:39 am
content: Quote from: Kilrah on November 09, 2016, 08:43:58 amWhat they're "selling" is rather different to that, but I agree there are ways to reduce the cost - it just doesn't look like they've approached it particularly well from the renders (especially Schuko).And some of those multi-country sockets wouldn't pass approvals - they can be outright dangerous. No idea about that one of course.

author: Kean
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 05, 2017, 01:55:17 pm
content: The Wirebutter campaign is about to end.. and the funding graph looks a bit suspicious.http://www.kicktraq.com/projects/2120665567/wirebutter-smart-powerboard/#chart-dailyThree days had very large pledges of around $9k each, and one of about $7k, with very few backers on these days.So I guess these probably correspond with the backers of the 120 and 70 packs.Who but an insider is going to pledge at those kinds of level?Note that it has gotten them past their goal, which they had no hope of reaching otherwise.And they're now promising free upgrades to 6 or 8 sockets - although they don't know which yet

author: ferrix
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 05, 2017, 08:13:46 pm
content: "Wirebutter" would be a good brand name for solder flux.

author: Kean
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 17, 2017, 01:38:55 am
content: Not surprising that these guys have run into certification issues.Backer only update from today:QuoteFrom that it seems pretty clear they didn't do much research on safety/EMC regulations up front. Certification delays were originally announced back in May, the estimated shipping month. They promised an update every 14 days in their mid June update after mentioning that there were further certification issues. Not surprisingly have only managed two pretty trivial monthly updates since.I'm ashamed they are fellow AussiesQuoteJust for the record, I only pledged $1 just to watch the train wreck.

author: hendorog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 17, 2017, 11:00:16 am
content: Quote from: Kean on August 17, 2017, 01:38:55 amYep fair cop, you called it early on.Will be interesting to see how it plays out in the end...

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 17, 2017, 11:37:52 am
content: Quote from: Kean on August 17, 2017, 01:38:55 amGood EMC design requires some serious knowledge and understanding, but safety compliance is largely a matter of following simple rules. If they got to such a late stage in their work without following the simple safety rules, such as clearances, do you think they have even started working on EMC compliance?

author: Kean
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 17, 2017, 11:50:16 am
content: Quote from: coppice on August 17, 2017, 11:37:52 amPrecisely!Remember, this is not just a device dealing with mains voltages, or typical emissions, but also 3 different wireless technologies (WiFi, BT, Zigbee) and implementing/supporting a bunch of protocols.EMC compliance is potentially needed for AU, US, EU, UK, JP, etc - many of which have slighly different rules (allowed channels, power levels, etc).I imagine that the costs of certifying for some countries will outweigh the amount pledged from that country - so they either have to refund, skip certification and hope not to get caught out, or eat the loss in the hope of selling more.I'd be surprised if they ever ship anything at all.

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 17, 2017, 02:16:13 pm
content: Quote from: Kean on August 17, 2017, 11:50:16 amUK = EU for regulatory purposes like EMC compliance, that was kind of the whole purpose of the whole EU thing, one market with one set of rules. If you can pass compliance in any one EU jurisdiction, be that the UK, Germany, Spain, whatever then that is deemed a pass for all EU jurisdictions. (Whatever happens with the whole 'brexit' mess, and remember it hasn't actually happened yet, it's highly likely that, post-brexit, UK regulations will continue to track EU regulations for things like EMC compliance that affect commonly traded goods.)

author: Kean
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 17, 2017, 02:46:31 pm
content: Quote from: Cerebus on August 17, 2017, 02:16:13 pmYeah, I expected as much. I just included it because (a) brexit & (b) your wonderful plugs & sockets

author: IanMacdonald
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2017, 05:24:58 am
content: People think the EU should make things easy by standardising, but really it's about regulations designed to benefit vested interests. For example we now have to use brown for live and blue for neutral in house wiring, BUT there is no standard for how houses should be wired, and regulations in France and Germany require that it is done totally differently than in the UK. Meanwhile the EU has no control over the IEE, who continue to put out insanely complicated regulations for electrical installations. Then there are the Part P building regs, which basically try to turn electrical work into a 'closed shop' like gas work. (If you've ever had any gas work done in the UK, it's like asking the Freemasons to perform some secret ritual for you.)It's a mess, and that's one of the reasons we want Brexit, is to reduce the mess. Our own bureaucrats produce enough regulatory mess on their own, thank you very much.As for this Wirebutter thing, the overriding question is, why would I want one, and what advantage does it have? AFAICS it's a gimmick, and a costly one at that. You can buy wirelessly switched sockets in sets of three for £12 or so. UK approved too.