Siglent SDS2204 + MSO review - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2014, 05:09:19 pm
content: SDS2204 + MSO reviewHW: 5-3SW: 1.1.1.35.1Reason for buyingI wanted to get a more modern oscilloscope to replace my Tektronix TDS744A (4 channels/ 500MHz) but it didn't need to be a 500MHz oscilloscope. Before last year the only option was to spend >€5000 on a Tektronix or Agilent with 4 channels. Then came the Rigol 1000Z series with 4 channels and not much later the SDS2000 series from Siglent offering a higher samplerate and a bigger screen compared to the Rigol 1000Z. Having digital channels could be useful as well. I do have a high end Tektronix logic analyser but it is heavy and the software is quite slow to use. Being able to offload some of the simple logic analyses tasks to an oscilloscope maybe worth while especially if it can do protocol decoding. The specifications for the MSO probe on the SDS2000 are not stellar though. The input capacitance of 10pf is rather high. Not problematic but I wouldn't use it for circuits going over 50MHz. IMHO 8 channels are just right. Having more is just overcrowding the screen especially if you also want to look at a couple of analog signals as well. I have used Agilent MSOs in the past and enabling 16 channels was a bit beyond the point of useful.All in all I choose to buy the 200MHz model. The worse case samplerate is 1Gs/s which seemed pushing the limits too far at 300MHz (3.3 samples per period).First impressionThe oscilloscope comes with four 300MHz probes, power cord, USB cable, a quick-start guide, MSO probe and a CD. The CD only contains the user manuals; no software. The oscilloscope does not come with a front cover which makes it less convenient to bring it to customers for measurements. I also would have preferred a real power switch. Even if it is at the back of the instrument. But then again high end Tektronix logic analysers don't have such a switch either. The probes are a bit flimsy even compared to the relatively cheap Testec probes I'm using. On the plus side they have a slim design like the Testec probes and they come with a complete set of accesoires.All the options are enabled in trial mode. Instead of a time limit the options are available for a number of uses (30 times). So I don't have to hurry to try the AWG. Or just save it for when I just need an extra AWG channel.DisplayWhat I'm missing is an option to inverse the video. I'm using a dark on white color scheme on all my equipment. It is much more pleasant to the eye (dark on white is standard in every PC application). The display on the SDS2000 also has a screensaver. Unfortunately that just hides the signals and shows the Siglent logo slowly bounching across the screen. What I would have liked is that it switches off the backlight. Even LED backlights have a finite lifetime.MSO probeThe MSO probe comes with 10 EZ hook grabbers (made in USA) and leads. The probe set is an extension cord (the connectors are similar to those used for fast-SCSI) and a plastic box with a 2.54mm boxed header connector to connect the grabbers. The cable itself is a crappy 0.65 pitch ribbon cable which is easy to damage. Worst; most of these ribbon cables have a solid core so it is likely to have a very short life. I dug up a more rugged fast/ultra-SCSI extension cable from my cable box and that seems to work just as well. Would it be so difficult to include a cable like this?http://www.ebay.com/itm/Adaptec-internal-wide-68-pin-SCSI-cable-1-meter-3ft-1496280-00-rev-a-/130466139871More complaining: all the grabbers and connecting cables are grey. It would have been nicer if 2 of them where black to indicate the ground connection. Because the MSO box doesn't have 'warranty void' stickers I opened it up and much to my surprise the analog front-end for the MSO part is in the plastic box! The specifications of the MSO bit are not stellar: 10pf input capacitance is rather high for a logic analyser especially with the input circuitry very close to the inputs. From the PCB layout it seems the digital signals are transported to the oscilloscope using differential (LVDS?) signals. If Siglent wants they could replace the analog front-end with something much better!First measurementsAt first glance navigating through a signal seems to work OK. Zoom is a nice addition but if you are not capturing long traces adjusting the time/div and using the horizontal position knob works just fine. It is also nice that the units and probe attenuation factor can be freely adjusted. If you have a current clamp you can set the units to A with the proper multiplication factor. All in all the basic oscilloscope functionality seems to work as expected.I tried decoding some serial data at 9600 baud. When the timebase is set slow it may be necessary to select a longer memory depth manually for decode to work properly. Much to my surprise the decode does not work for the digital channels! I bought this oscilloscope specifically for that feature!I also did some tests with peak-detect mode. I used a signal generator to create pulses with a width of 16ns. The oscilloscope triggers fine but at settings of more than 200ms/div it doesn't display the pulses. The same goes for roll mode. The narrow pulses don't show. IMHO a fail because peak-detect is supposed to detect the narrowest pulses the front-end can handle. I guess peak-detect got implemented the wrong way; let the ADCs run at decreased sampling speed instead of downsampling while keeping min/max values. What this oscilloscope does is called 'envelope mode'. Actually my TDS744A can do both 'envelope' and peak-detect since these are two distinct different ways of acquiring a signal.I'm also missing a 'menu off' button to hide a menu. The 'UP' button more or less works in a similar way of escape but it displays the message 'the page is top!' if you are already in the root menu.Automated measurementsSo far I have only used the Vpp and frequency measurements. What I like about these is that the min, max, average and standard deviation are also shown. The values always tend to vary somewhat so having the extra information helps a lot to get a better feel for the signal you are looking at. To get stable readings on my TDS744A I have to switch the acquisition method to averaging with a lot of cycles. The downside is that the automated measurements are in the middle across the screen.Bandwidth and aliasingBecause this is a realtime sampling oscilloscope with a bandwidth relatively close to the worse case nyquist frequency (500MHz) it is expected that the frequency response shows some peaking due to 'brick wall filtering'. I used an RF generator set to 0dBm (612mVpp on the oscilloscope) and set the input impedance to 50 Ohm. I forced the sampling frequency to 1Gs/s by enabling 2 channels. There is some peaking (maybe +/- 1dB) at some frequencies but nothing severe. On my 200MHz model the -3dB bandwidth is 345MHz. That is way more than I expected based on the specified bandwidth of 200MHz. When going beyond the nyquist frequency there is some residual signal due to aliasing. With the RF generator set to 1001MHz I see a 12mVpp sine wave with a frequency of 1MHz. With the 0dBM input signal the triggering is stable up to 450MHz. With the input sensitivity set to max (2mV/div) the oscilloscope still triggers on a 450MHz signal of -30dBm (less than 1mVpp) which is quite impressive.The MSO partIt takes a bit of playing to get used to setting it up. The channels can be enabled individually and the order in which the channels are displayed can also be changed. Unfortunately things get weird when decoding is enabled. The digital channels get lost or work in the wrong way once the stop button is pressed or in single acquisition mode with decoding enabled. See picture below where the signal D0 (red) should display the same as channel1 (yellow). I think somehow the time cale for the digital channels doesn't follow the timescale for the analog channels. That is a major bug!The MSO probe also has a clock input but I can't find a setting to use external clocking for the digital channels. IMHO the MSO part is still under development. A slight hint is that the 'Digital' button does not go off once the MSO part has been activated.Dumping imagesI played a bit with dumping images. What I would like to have is a way to write the images with a white background. That looks much nicer in a report. I often make reports with screendumps from an oscilloscope. Having large black blobs in a document doesn't make it appealing. My TDS744A allows for writing images in reverse video (white background). Something else I'm missing is writing images in a different format. I would have expected to be able to choose between BMP, JPG and PNG but it seems only BMP is supported. Another option I'm missing is to dump the traces as CSV data. On my TDS744A I have used that feature to write a long trace to disk and process it further using Excel.It would also be nice if the oscilloscope has it's own web server. That way a browser could be used to retrieve images and other data (sample values in CSV format). That would avoid needing to go back and forth with a USB stick all the time.PC SoftwareI wanted to give the Easyscope3 software from Siglent a try as well but even after installing the NI-VISA software the software still says it can't initialise itself and terminates. I installed the software on a freshly installed Windows XP in a virtual machine. Not wanting to mess with finding compatible third party software versions endlessly I gave up on the software. I have the same problem with the software which came with my Siglent SDG1010. Siglent: please create software packages which 'work out of the box'! Having to install all kinds of third party software is way too cumbersome. Again: a webserver inside the oscilloscope would make it a lot easier than to having to mess around with software which needs to be installed first.ConclusionAll in all there are several area's where bugs need to be fixed (also see the reviews of others). I was expecting that; I wanted to wait longer for the firmware to mature but an upcoming project forced me to either buy a CAN analyser or get the SDS2204 ahead of time. I also started to run into several limitations of my TDS744A. As it sits now I wouldn't recommend buying this oscilloscope if you can't work around the bugs that have been found so far.Pros:- low fan noise- good triggering on low level signalsCons:- peak-detect is not doing peak-detect at all- decoding doesn't work on digital channels- flimsy MSO cableAt the moment I'm not quite sure whether I keep the oscilloscope or not. I'm not satisfied with the peak detect not working as it should and not happy with the decoding working on the analog channels only.The same screendump showing the digital trace problem with decode enabled twice. Once normal (white on dark) and inverted (dark on white):

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2014, 05:59:36 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on August 25, 2014, 05:09:19 pmThis is one of the first things I evaluate in DSOs and the Chinese ones have all failed miserably so far whether they said they supported peak detection or not. People keep trying to convince me that their long record lengths make up for it but my ancient DSOs have no problem. I suspect the older Rigol DSOs deliberately confuse peak detection with envelope detection because the truth makes them look bad but their marketing deception makes them look worse.QuoteBrick wall filtering has no place in a time domain instrument and using it after digitizing not only does not remove aliasing but screws up the transient response.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2014, 07:40:26 pm
content: Maybe 'brick wall' is a bit of an overstatement but to prevent severe aliasing the analog front-end has to do some serious filtering which does affect transient and phase response. An ideal oscilloscope has a Gaussian roll-off but that is hard to achieve will sensible realtime sampling rates.I have found another bug: the zoom window isn't aligned with what is shown. In the picture below the bottom half of the screen shows the last rising edge of channel 1 (yellow). The zoom window however is way off:

author: Hydrawerk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2014, 08:41:44 pm
content: Thanks for the review, it is quite long. I have to read it sometimes.

author: marmad
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2014, 08:55:54 pm
content: Quote from: David Hess on August 25, 2014, 05:59:36 pmThis works fine on my Rigol DS2000 - in either Y-T mode or roll mode. But the Siglent starts doing some different kind of decimating when the timebase is >=200us/div (>=5.6M sample length), because the intensity grading changes dramatically there compared to all faster timebases.And, BTW, thanks for posting your impressions of the MSO functions.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2014, 09:15:39 pm
content: @nctnicoHopefully Siglent may expand on some issues you have raised, in the meanwhile, those I can help with:The full software package is nearly complete and hopefully will be available soon.QuoteI use EasyScopeX and NIVisa for PC connection, no problems.http://www.siglent.com/en/server/download.aspx?nodecode=119004002003Be aware AFAIK the free use ofnon-purchased options is only available for 30 power cycles of the scope.QuoteVery interesting considering this post from Siglent:QuoteEDITWe seriously need clarification of this issue.QuoteIt's there....more familiarity needed.Measure menu: Stats or All Measure sub menus: "Display off"QuoteQuite possibly, it has not long been released and as I do not have the MSO port on my evaluation unit, I can not test your claims.nctnicothank you for your review, good to have another perspective of functionality and performance.Please feel free to compile your concerns in an email to Siglent.

author: Hydrawerk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2014, 09:28:21 pm
content: QuoteSame as on my Agilent DSOX2002A scope.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2014, 09:46:44 pm
content: QuoteDetailed specs in the datasheet at foot of post:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent's-new-product-msosds2000-series/msg483856/#msg483856

author: Hydrawerk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2014, 11:33:04 pm
content: QuoteReally?I found this in the user manual at page 165.4. CSVSDS2000 saves the waveform data in external memory in “*.CSV” format. The stored filescontain the waveform data of the displayed analog channels and the main settinginformation of the oscilloscope. The recall of CSV file is not supported.

author: Hydrawerk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2014, 11:56:27 pm
content: QuoteI think that Siglent never promised decoding on digital channels. You should have read the user manual.

author: Siglent
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2014, 02:55:17 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on August 25, 2014, 05:09:19 pmDear nctnico, SDS2000 series only support EasyscopeX, Easyscope3 can only be used for SHS series.You can download the Latest EasyscopeX fromhttp://www.siglent.com/en/server/download.aspx?nodecode=119004002003

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2014, 09:49:32 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on August 25, 2014, 05:09:19 pmReplies from Siglent:Will all software be included on future CD’s?yes, of course, the one of Nctnico maybe a early version of CD.QuoteRe nctnico’s comments of the MSO probe ribbon cable: is this cable available as a separate item?YES

author: Fsck
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2014, 09:51:10 am
content: Quote from: tautech on August 26, 2014, 09:49:32 ampretty sure he doesn't want the included cable at all, he wanted a better one included. (his example = old scsi cables)

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2014, 10:37:18 am
content: Quote from: Siglent on August 26, 2014, 02:55:17 amIt seems I already tried EasyscopeX. So my comment is actually for EasyScopeX.About the MSO cable: the cable which came with the oscilloscope is just sub-standard outright crap. This kind of cable is made for installing once or twice inside a PC casing. Not to be on a bench where it gets moved around a lot and may encounter sharp or hot objects. The MSO cable I received had some ugly bends and scratches already when it came out of the box. I ordered a DELL 0H924 SCSI cable from Ebay to replace the MSO cable:@Hydrawerk: You are right about the CSV files. This function is under the save/recall button indeed. The CD I got had version 1.0 of the user manual on it; I didn't want to rely on that version of the user manual. I knew there was a newer version but that is not listed under the downloads for the SDS2000 series. Regarding decoding: According to Siglent's own posting (quoted by Tautech a few posts earlier) decoding should work on the digital channels so I'm kinda surprised.@Tautech: On my oscilloscope it seems the number of trials decreases by activating a function. The number of power cycles doesn't seem to matter.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2014, 11:28:03 am
content: From the SDS2000 Manual V2:*Digital channels may be grouped and displayed as a bus, with each value displayed at thebottom of the display in hex or binary. You can create up two buses.*Under the DIGITAL function menu, an status indicator is displayed in the statusline at the bottom of the display. Light blue shows the digital channel is included inthe bus while black shows it is excluded in the bus.*Under the DIGITAL function menu, press the System Display softkey to selectBinary or Hex to display the bus values.But this is not the Serial decoding that many expect.Is it enough?EDITImage addedThere seems some confusion re decoding in MSO and I will ask Siglent to clarify.They see the discussion and points raised as valuable, thanks.Re EasyScopeXInstall guide in file: EasyScopeXEN.chm

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2014, 11:52:02 am
content: QuoteThat is good news.I stand corrected.But the shame for us that have the early versions and now with many starts, the latest firmware did not reset the option start counter.I will report it as a bug.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2014, 12:56:43 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on August 26, 2014, 11:28:03 amIf I try to open the EasyScopeXEN.chm on my Windows XP virtual machine it starts the help browser but says 'navigation is cancelled' and shows no further information. Perhaps a PDF would be better in order not to rely on what is installed on a PC.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2014, 01:38:56 pm
content: Another thing that bothers me is the select/intensity adjust button. If I push it to select something I often turn it a little and end up selecting something different than I intended.

author: marmad
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2014, 04:20:19 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on August 26, 2014, 01:38:56 pmYes, this is another problem on both the Siglent and the Rigol; also, the acceleration parameters /sensitivity of the knob are not always optimal.Neither company seems to be able to get this right. It would be nice if they had variable settings which could be saved for acceleration and delay, so that we (the users) could at least try to adjust them to suit (as closely as possible) our own mannerisms.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2014, 10:38:18 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on August 26, 2014, 12:56:43 pmContents of EasyScopeXEN.chm:System Requirements1?NET framework 3.5 SP1The application you are installing requires the Microsoft .NET framework version 3.5 to run. You can download the Microsoft .NET Framework 3.5 SP1 package directly from Microsoft. This is a small 3 MB download with just the .NET framework installer. When you run it, the installer downloads the actual framework components that need to be installed on your computer. Once you've installed the .NET framework, you can continue installing the application.If you plan to install version 3.5 of the .NET framework on a large number of computers, you can also download the full package of the Microsoft .NET Framework 3.5 SP1. This 231 MB download comes directly from Microsoft. The small 3 MB installer likely needs to download much less than this, depending on what is already present on your computer.2?NiVisaBefore use this softwave,you have to install the ni-visa runtime library,you can find it in the installation folder or you can download it from NI web site.3?Window XP(32 bits) or Windows Vista(32 bits/64 bits) or Windows 7(32 bits/64 bits)4?.Net Framework was installed on the machine when installing Windows 7(64 bits) or Windows Vista(64 bits),follow next steps to use it:a?Open control panel,select Uninstall Program.b?Select Open or Close Windows Functions in the new window.c?Check Microsoft .Net Framework in the Windows Functions Dialog box?click OK button.Here is a screen shot of my settings that also may help: (Win7 64 Bit)Quote from: nctnico on August 26, 2014, 01:38:56 pmThe "Rigol Swap Knob" fix can be used to improve usability.

author: Mark_O
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2014, 11:44:31 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on August 26, 2014, 11:28:03 amNo. This is a simple parallel bus display mode. It's not really "decoding" anything, except in the very loosest sense of the word.QuoteNo, because what was being discussed was serial protocol decoding. That's a different kettle of fish. I had specifically been discussing serial decoding, saying it wasn't implemented on the digital channels. And got corrected by Siglent, that it WAS supported, but was simply a matter of which button on the front panel was used to enable the two different sections... based on the data source.If the unit can only do serial decoding on the analog channels, and parallel "decoding" on the digital channels, then Siglent needs to clearly say so. There's really no reason it couldn't do serial protocol decoding on the digital channels, since the data there has already been 'processed' and cleaned up, by the threshold detection in the LA front end. It's just a bit stream, either way. The same thing happens on the analog channels, but there the decoder has to impose a threshold itself, so it knows where a "bit" starts and stops.The only reason it may not work would be if Siglent provided no way for the serial decoders to access the digital capture RAM. From my understanding of Nico's description, the channels CAN be selected for that... it just doesn't work (yet).

author: marmad
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2014, 12:00:42 am
content: Quote from: Mark_O on August 26, 2014, 11:44:31 pmDid you mean that you thought they were visible as selections for the Source settings of the Decode bus - but they were non-functional or non-selectable (grayed out)?If I turn on the Digital channels on my unit, I don't see them as possible sources in Decode - but I don't have the MSO cable, so perhaps that makes a difference.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2014, 12:24:30 am
content: @Tautech: thanks for finding out how to get the software going. I'll try that later on. I'm keen on trying to see if I can get a connection over the network interface.@Marmad and Mark_O:I just checked again but I can't select a digital channel for decode. There is something weird with decode and digital channels. When I press digital when decode is active then decode is de-activated. But the other way around is different. If I press decode with digital active both decode and digital are active. Like I wrote before: this area seems to be work in progress.BTW: I also found out that decode cannot be enabled if there is an automatic measurement active. I don't see why these two functions would interfere.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2014, 12:46:03 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on August 27, 2014, 12:24:30 amThe latest firmware enabled the LAN interface, and I too need to check this out.There are LAN setup instructions on P164 of V2 user manual.I have asked Siglent to check their download link to ensure V2 manual is easily available.

author: Mark_O
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2014, 12:48:21 am
content: Thanks for the review, Nico. But this is rather long, and time-consuming to read. Could you summarize it down to maybe 5 sentences, for those of us too busy to read the whole thing?Quote from: nctnico on August 25, 2014, 05:09:19 pm10 pF isn't that bad, in this class. Sure, the P6417 probes you use on your TLA704 are only 2 pF, but the acquisition modules there support 2 GSa/s in timing mode. The Siglent LA only goes up to 500 MSa/s.QuoteMore pleasant toyoureye perhaps, but not everyone's (including mine). [I find it really fatiguing to stare into a small white display for long periods.]QuoteDo youknowthese are solid core? Or just deprecating them because theymightbe? Since they're so "crappy", and you already have much better ones, just chop them up and find out. Oh, wait. You might not keep it. Best not to be slicing and dicing them.That was close.QuoteHmm. That's twice in one review you've criticized the same thing.QuoteWell, that sucks. Thanks for the info.QuoteMuch good info here. Thanks.QuoteIs there a Delay or Skew setting adjustment in the Menu structure? If not, then it's not a bug, so much as a design fail. Acquisition for the digital signals is happening in the active logic head. Which has short flying leads to the DUT. Acquisition for the analog channels is performed inside the scope, after traveling down a 1-2m cable. Propagation delays means the analog and digital channels cannot be in sync, without some method of offset adjustment. Rigol just figured that out on their MSO1000Z/2000 units (all their older MSOs had no time sync).QuoteThanks! Since they just recently finished the first pass implementation on the LA section, I guess it's not surprising if it's not complete yet. Still, disappointing.QuoteRight. But this is super simple to do on your PC. Or are you creating documents on your Siglent?QuoteAgreed that this is mildly annoying (due to the size of the images to transfer), but fairly standard. It's easier to just copy raw image data (which is what BMPs are), rather than implementing algorithms to compress the images.QuoteThanks a lot for your report! Please let us know if you get a chance to test the CAN decode. Thanks too for the comments on low fan noise. That's something that's actually more important to a lot of folks than many manufs. realize.

author: Mark_O
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2014, 12:56:17 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on August 27, 2014, 12:24:30 amThanks for checking that, and clarifying. I had the impression that it was enable-able, but just didn't work. What you've described sounds really strange. Like a section of my code, where I have scaffolding but no implementation.

author: Mark_O
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2014, 01:02:28 am
content: Quote from: marmad on August 27, 2014, 12:00:42 amMy old Rigol MSO (DS1102CD) has LA head detection, and not only disables certain capabilities when it's not plugged in, but beeps and alerts you just for trying to turn the LA on.

author: marmad
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2014, 01:13:34 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on August 27, 2014, 12:24:30 amIt works either way for me. But the menu buttons for the extra Vertical set of controls (Ref / Math / Digital / Decode) don't function uniformly. Some of them turn on both the display of the feature plus it's menu (like Digital), but others turn on just the menu (Decode), but you still have to enable the Decode bus display with a menu selection. Plus, the light for the Decode button seems to operate incorrectly:Start with both things off (and all button lights unlit).Press DecodeSelect Display On from the screen menuThe decode bus will be displayedPress DigitalThe digital channels will be displayedThe button light for Decode will go off - but the decode bus is still enabled and displayed on the screenPress Decode againThe button lights again and you go back to the Decode menu.Select Display Off from the screen menu.The decode bus will disappear from the screen - but the button remains lit - until you turn off Digital (or turn Math on and off).

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2014, 09:51:51 am
content: Quote from: Mark_O on August 27, 2014, 12:48:21 amI took the cable apart and inspected one wire at the connector.I was wrong: it is stranded wire and not solid core. That still doesn't mean I'm happy with using a fragile unprotected ribbon cable.QuoteNo, that is keeping things complete in case people skip ahead instead of reading everything.QuoteIt is not skew. If you look closely at the screendump I posted earlier you see D0 has the same signal as CH1 but it is delayed by 18ms with a different time scale.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2014, 09:01:04 pm
content: After having used the oscilloscope a bit longer I really start to miss horizontal cursors. I use these a lot. The tracking cursors don't work if the signal is a thick noisy trace (which is often the case). I want to be able the put a horizontal cursor at two positions on the screen and read the difference between them. Siglent: please add horizontal cursorsI also found another bug:If I capture a trace and use the time/div knob to enlarge the waveform every now and then the waveforms are not properly aligned. When the horizontal position is adjusted slightly the signal jumps to the proper position. The picture below shows the effect. All the signals should be in phase but the yellow one is not.

author: marmad
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2014, 09:06:51 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on August 27, 2014, 09:01:04 pmCan't you use Manual -> X cursors? Or maybe Y; I'm not quite sure if you mean measuring horizontally - or measuring vertically.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2014, 09:33:33 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on August 27, 2014, 09:01:04 pmSeveral edits.Could it be the noisy waveform is not allowing this.It can be "tamed" with a lower Mem or Averaging setting.Can you then get the cursors to track?You image below shows the Trig Level setting for CH2 above the waveform.Does a lower setting change results?Is there a reason why the trigger point is at 640mS delay?Also Ch2 is AC coupled and all others are DC coupled.Could that affect result?Have you done a Self Cal since you got the scope?Do you have Quick Cal turned on?My questions in no way imply improper scope use, I like you want to find reasons for your results.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2014, 09:56:30 pm
content: The problem is not related to triggering. It occurs every now and then when turning the time/div knob quickly to enlarge a captured waveform when the acquisition is stopped (run/stop is red).Using tracking cursors is very tedious when all I want to know is the voltage difference on a signal. And sometimes I use the horizontal cursors on my TDS744A to set a predefined level on the screen without a signal being present. My TDS744A has vertical, horizontal and tracking cursors with vertical cursors showing time or frequency and horizontal cursors showing the voltage or current.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2014, 10:20:32 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on August 27, 2014, 09:56:30 pmOK, the trick will be to duplicate this result in Siglent's lab.QuoteWhen the manual Cursors are first turned on(with no waveform present), they are obscured by the flat line trace, but can individually be adjusted to the position you desire.When selected and the knob adjusted they then become visible.EDITI believe this answers your previous post:Quote

author: marmad
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2014, 10:35:37 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on August 27, 2014, 10:20:32 pmDidn't I just mention these?

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2014, 10:56:11 pm
content: I have added a screendump of my TDS744A showing the cursor options with horizontal cursors enabled:The SDS2000 seems only to support Vbars (vertical cursors) and paired (tracking).

author: marmad
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2014, 11:15:54 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on August 27, 2014, 10:56:11 pmThe SDS2304 that I've got certainly has them.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2014, 11:24:23 pm
content: Quote from: marmad on August 27, 2014, 11:15:54 pmAha... hidden in some menuGot them now.I gave the software another try. I tried to connect to the oscilloscope over the network using the EasyscopeX software but now I'm getting some kind of JIT error because some component from NI cannot be foundThe network is OK; I can ping the scope just fine. I guess I'll just have to wait until Siglent implements a webserver in the oscilloscope like other manufacturers.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2014, 11:43:24 pm
content: You have been using your Tek for too long.New equipment usually broadens your outlook on how things can be done.Not saying any variation from any "norm" is right or wrong, its just different to expectations.But if existing equipment operation is exactly copied, then accusations arise.As gear gets more complex and featured, the design challenge is to fit it in a package that has required features and function.Essentially there should be no "norm" but a state of constant improvement.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2014, 11:51:35 pm
content: I agree but you have to admit that the way the Tektronix scope shows all the available options on the screen is quite clever O0

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2014, 12:06:00 am
content: Touch screens, integrated batteries, and single button mice are all improvements as well. Maybe you are holding the Siglent wrong.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2014, 02:52:44 pm
content: Today I have tried to use the FFT function to look for distortion (clipping) in a 1kHz signal. The frequency scale seems to be driven by 2 factors:- memory length- time base settingWith the memory length set to 7kpts (shortest) and the timebase set to 20ms I could get a frequency scale low enough to see the 1kHz signal and distinctive harmonics (2kHz and 3kHz). Unfortunately setting the timebase this slow makes the signals invisible.IMHO the FFT function would be better if the FFT uses more points if you zoom in (more detail) and when averaging can be applied to the FFT results. I wouldn't mind slower FFT updates.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2014, 04:20:27 pm
content: It sounds like it is decimating the display record before performing the FFT so the FFT resolution is not increases by having longer record lengths. That makes sense if the FFT size is limited which is often the case.There are algorithms for computing just part of an FFT but if a large fraction is desired, it is better to compute the whole thing.

author: Siglent
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2014, 06:09:05 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on August 27, 2014, 09:01:04 pmDear nctnico,SDS2000 have horizon cursors.I have a question that your waveform is not triggered (the trigger level is not at right position ), how can you confirm this is the oscilloscope problem in stop mode?If the waveform is normally triggered, it will be OK. see below.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2014, 07:59:22 am
content: @Siglent:My signals are perfectly triggered and in phase because they are the same signal on different channels. What I did was:- setup the oscilloscope to trigger- press the run/stop button to put the oscilloscope in stop mode- change the time/div knob quicklyAfter a couple of tries you should be able to reproduce the same problem (signals out of phase).

author: Siglent
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2014, 09:58:28 am
content: all right,I have tried many times and finally reproduced it.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2014, 11:28:18 am
content: Quote from: Siglent on September 03, 2014, 09:58:28 amWell done Jade, now you havemarmad's list to work through.https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/review-siglent-sds2304-a-comparison-of-features-with-rigol-ds2000-series/msg505048/#msg505048

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2014, 06:10:46 pm
content: Quote from: Siglent on September 03, 2014, 09:58:28 amThat is good to read. If you need more information/clarification on reproducing the other bugs I think I have found let me know on the forum or through a private message.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2014, 12:26:47 pm
content: Today I received the MSO probe cable replacement: A Dell 0H924 SCSI cable. The Dell SCSI cable is a very flexible round cable. I had to remove the strain reliefs and pulling tabs to make the connector fit in the shell. I also found out that the connector on the oscilloscope is recessed too deep. I had to mill a little bit from one of the shells to make the connector lock properly.The end result is a cable which is much more convenient to use. There are still wires exposed although much less than before.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2014, 07:21:47 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on September 09, 2014, 12:26:47 pmMuch betteralthough I'm sure we all think it could be better still.I wonder if we can convince Siglent to change their sockets to receive a similar SCSI cable in a future HW revision?

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2014, 08:21:51 pm
content: IMHO it is not difficult for Siglent to replace the flatcable with something better without making the cable more expensive. There are shells for these type of connectors which are suitable for a round cable. Maybe even a readily made SCSI cable with HD connectors.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2014, 11:26:04 pm
content: I found another bug when using the timebase to zoom into signals. One way to reproduce:Capture the calibrator signal with horizontal set to roll mode with 100ms/div. Press stop. Use the timebase setting to zoom in to 50us/div. Now the waveform is displayed weird. When the horizontal position is turned the waves move weird. On edge stands still while the other edge moves. For some reason only 50us/div has this behaviour.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2014, 11:31:04 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on September 09, 2014, 11:26:04 pmCONFIRMEDSent to Siglent.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 20, 2014, 12:57:42 am
content: I tried the EasyScopeX software again. This time with a USB cable but still no go. The software from NI sees the oscilloscope fine but no go with EasyscopeX.edit: I downloaded the latest version of EasyscopeX (which now also includes the NI Visa runtime) and that seems to work with USB. LAN is still no-go. The oscilloscope is detected but I get an error saying that 'error_log.txt' is locked because it is used by a different process when I try get a screendump. I really like to see the LAN interface working.edit2: I also see something is wrong with the USB interface as well. I keep getting messages that the oscilloscope is a full speed (which means USB2.0 480Mbit) device but that it cannot work at that speed so the data transfer is slower than necessary (12Mbit instead of 480Mbit). Yes, I tried several cables and hubs.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2014, 12:59:29 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on September 20, 2014, 12:57:42 amLAN(for others to see as well.)From Easyscope select Add Device.Select Bus/Connection type: VX11Ensure the scope IP address in Easyscope matches the scope IP (accessed from Utility/ I/O / LAN menu.Set DHCP to Enable.Should look like this in the Easyscope Scope Explorer pane:SDS2304 Active VX11 TCPIPO::192. 1**.*.***::inst0::INSTR SDS200**********Select Send Commands and choose *IDN? which then appears in the Send Commands pane.Press Enter for your scopes ID and this should appear in the pane below.For example try a ASET command typed into the Send Command pane for the scope Auto Setup.USBFrom Easyscope select Add Device.Be sure to select the USBTMC connection/bus typeShould look like this in the Easyscope Scope Explorer pane:SDS2304 Active USBTMC USBO::***********::INSTR SDS200**********Then select the Virtual Panel button in the above ribbon for a window that allows mouse control of the full features of the scope.(PC used: I3 3.3G Win 7 64 bit)@nctnicoI have not tried USB 1 for Easyscope control, only USB 2, have you checked your PC USB hubs in Device Manager are USB 2 compliant and have updated drivers?Nor have I tried connection through a USB hub.For me it works as expected.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2014, 09:38:43 am
content: Other USB2.0 devices connect at full speed (480Mbit) just fine. It really is the oscilloscope. Maybe there is something marginal in the hardware design.The problem with the LAN connection is a concurrency bug in the software. The communication works OK but somewhere in the software there are 2 or more processes trying to access the same file. I tried switching from dual core to single core but that didn't solve.Remember this is with the latest version of the software. The previous version didn't work at all.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2014, 09:47:52 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on September 20, 2014, 12:57:42 amBe careful with USB hubs, they often cause annoying problems for devices other than keyboard/mice and USB storage. Better connect the scope directly to the computer's USB ports.Depending on your board you could also try to use an USB port that is connected to a different USB controller port than the ones you use for your other devices.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2014, 10:04:03 am
content: I tried that already as well. I have had similar issues with bad USB cables. I did use a USB cable which is quite long because the computer is far from the oscilloscope (hence the wish to use LAN). If the USB hardware is marginal (too much EMC damping) then a longer cable could mess things up.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2014, 10:05:17 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on September 21, 2014, 09:38:43 amPlease answer for Siglent to assist if necessary.USB has been enabled in the SDS2000 for months now but you are correct re the LAN firmware it is very recent.Is your USB connection through a "stand alone" hub or directly to the PC?OS?Have you tried re-installing N-Visa after using something like CCleaner?Is MS Net Framework 3.5 version?Hopefully we will get this sorted in short order.I will point Siglent to this post for their comments.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2014, 10:09:47 am
content: I installed everything on a freshly installed Windows in a virtual machine on a very fast PC.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2014, 07:14:40 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on September 21, 2014, 10:09:47 amWell, VMs can also be very problematic when used with USB devices that are timing critical.You should really check it on a native Windows installation (preferably Windows 7) as this could very well be a problem with your setup.

author: marmad
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2014, 08:04:24 pm
content: Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on September 21, 2014, 07:14:40 pmIt worked fine on my Win 7 x64 machine - on either USB 1.0 or 2.0 ports.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2014, 09:55:23 pm
content: Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on September 21, 2014, 07:14:40 pmThere is no reason why they should. USB is a stream with packets which are received in the order they where send. I have no problem using microcontroller programmers from the same VM.QuoteI don't have a Win7 install I can play with. Besides that Linux also complains the device is not capable of running at full speed so the problem is definitely not in the VM but in the USB layer.@marmad: it works but that doesn't say it works at full speed. I just noticed Linux complained about the oscilloscope being incapable of using the full potential of the USB connection.edit: I tested with a real Windows XP machine and it also complains there is a full speed device running at the slower 'high speed'.

author: Siglent
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 22, 2014, 02:50:42 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on September 20, 2014, 12:57:42 amwe are sorry it brought you trouble, may I have the 'error-log.txt' for analyzing? please send it tosupport@siglent.com, thank you!

author: Siglent
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 22, 2014, 07:31:23 am
content: SDS2000 support SCPI commands through LAN. while You need the latest version of EasyscopeX(P03R5)http://www.siglent.com/en/server/download.aspx?nodecode=119004002003you can also use NI-Max.below is my test result.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 22, 2014, 08:17:07 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on September 21, 2014, 09:55:23 pmI've seen issues with USB redirection in VMs on quite a few occasions, including on KVM and XEN under Linux. If that happens then it's usually easy to solve by passing the USB controller through to the VM directly (although this requires a CPU with IOMMU).But since you tested under native XP it really seems to be a problem with the scope.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 22, 2014, 09:19:13 am
content: Quote from: Siglent on September 22, 2014, 07:31:23 amI tried that and the oscilloscope responds fine to SCPI commands over the network. The problem seems to be in EasyscopeX itself. I've send the log files to your e-mail address as requested.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 10, 2015, 08:17:30 pm
content: To conclude the review: I ended up buying a different scope a few months after buying the SDS2204 because I really needed a scope which just worked (decoding, logic channels, cursors, FFT, etc). I tried to return the SDS2204 to the Siglent dealer in the NL but this thread upset him so he didn't want to take it back. A quick calculation showed hiring a lawyer would not be cost effective to get my money back. I sold the SDS2204 with a hefty loss but I in the end I just wanted to get rid of it. It turned out it wasn't very useful as a bring-along scope either. There is no telling what and when Siglent manages to fix or not and looking at other Siglent equipment their progress is slow. It literally takes them years to get firmware to a mature level. The SDG1000 series wasn't so bad but Lecroy probably pushed Siglent to come up with something decent. OTOH judging from the teething problems with other new Siglent equipment (their bench multimeter for example) it is better to buy Siglent gear which has been released a couple of years ago so the firmware had time to mature and in-depth third party reviews are available.Earlier in this thread someone wrote something along the lines of 'If a piece of equipment isn't ready now don't buy it and hope it will get fixed because you will be dissappointed'. He was utterly right! Expensive lesson learned

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 10, 2015, 08:35:54 pm
content: If It's any constelation, I've just received a Siglent Confidential list of fixes and enhancements to the SDS2000 series firmware to be soon released.All I can say is the bug list you have shared with me has been attended to fully with the Beta FW we are testing.Siglent have indicated unless we find more fault they intend releasing this new FW very soon.

author: marmad
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 10, 2015, 08:47:05 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on September 10, 2015, 08:17:30 pmIf you don't mind me asking, what did you get in the end (or did you start another thread here about it)? A used DSO or something new?

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 10, 2015, 09:30:37 pm
content: I bought a used Agilent DSO7104A (4ch 1GHz) with all options (including MSO) for a good price through Ebay from a seller with 0 feedback. Otherwise I probably would have ended up with a Keysight 3000 series or maybe the Lecroy wavesurfer 3000. As a bring-along scope I have bought an older Yokogawa DL1740 (currently 2ch 500MHz).

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 11, 2015, 07:53:04 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on September 10, 2015, 09:30:37 pmNice! Any chance you could do a review?

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 11, 2015, 10:46:03 am
content: Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on September 11, 2015, 07:53:04 amThat is work in progress:www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/yokogawa-dl1740-oscilloscope-repair-teardown/msg747159/