Why do commercials sound so blasted loud? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Connecteur
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2021, 04:49:09 pm
content: I have a soundbar connected to my TV, and I am constantly adjusting the volume up so I can hear content, and down to avoid the loud blasting sound of commercials. The same is also true for broadcast and streaming content, and on radio as well.I first heard this mentioned as a complaint on a phone-in radio show back in the seventies, and sound engineers have been adamantly insisting that it isn't happening ever since. I gather from the technical explanation that sound levels are not actually higher, but they sound that way because of how they were processed. Something about dynamic range I guess.In 2012, the FCC was mandated by the Commercial Advertisement Loudness Mitigation Act, which prohibits commercials from being louder than the program on TV. In spite of this, I am always straining to understand the content of a program until I boost the volume quite a lot, and then every time a commercial comes on, I feel I'm getting blasted out of the room until I grab the remote and reduce the volume. It never stops. My TV even has a setting to keep everything near the same volume, but it doesn't seem to work.Is there an answer to this, or are we going to get the perennial reply from sound engineers that it's not happening?

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2021, 05:01:16 pm
content: Quote from: Connecteur on November 18, 2021, 04:49:09 pmYes, I think they get around the rules by using a lot of dynamic range compression - which probably accounts for the lousy sound quality of some of them. In terms of an answer to it, I guess wait for the multi-decade loophole to be closed. The broadcasters aren't going to do anything about it because they are depending on the advertising revenue.I remember when Topfield PVRs (Toppies) with open APIs were a niche product here, a few people tried writing TAPs (apps) to detect adverts to allow skipping, but as far as I remember, nobody had much success.I suppose it might be possible by detecting the average audio signal level rather than peak, but of course that could only work when the audio is in the analogue domain (rather than HDMI).

author: ejeffrey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2021, 05:21:33 pm
content: Yeah, it is just heavy dynamic range compression. The quietest sounds are not much lower than the loudest sounds so the average is higher and it is continuously loud rather than intermittently loud.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2021, 05:29:11 pm
content: Yep. Just compression.And it's unfortunately easy to work around any law that "prohibits commercials from being louder than the program on TV". Because it's all in the definition of what is considered louder in objective terms. Where are the formulas in the law?

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2021, 05:29:50 pm
content: Another abuse, especially on US radio commercials, is the use of speed-up audio technology on the legally-required information at the end of the commercial. On television commercials, there should be a requirement that the text for disclaimers (such as "has not been evaluated by the FDA" for "supplements") use letters at least as large as the contact information (phone number or website) so that they are legible by the consumer.

author: eti
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2021, 08:20:07 pm
content: "Why do commercials sound so blasted loud?"As a child, I quickly learnt"empty vessels make the most noise"

author: Neper
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2021, 08:56:36 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on November 18, 2021, 05:29:11 pmWe're getting there. The European Broadcasting Union has developed its recommendation R128 which deals with this exact problem. The parameter is called 'loudness' and there are standards for measuring it. From now on, there are two values to be observed: the true peak level (in dBTP) as a technical limit for avoiding overmodulation and the loudness value (in LUFS) as a measure for the overall loudness of a programme.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EBU_R_128In a growing number of European countries, R128 has become part of the technical regulations for radio and tv broadcasting.So, what does this mean for the advertisers? To comply, they have to either reduce the compression of their audio or crank down the overall level.Metering is done with something like this:https://www.tcelectronic.com/product.html?modelCode=P0D9LThere's also a number of free AU and VST plug-ins available for Windoze and Mac OS, such as:https://youlean.co/youlean-loudness-meter/

author: eti
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2021, 10:35:07 pm
content: Quote from: edavid on November 18, 2021, 08:41:33 pmHo ho ho, and a bottle of rum.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2021, 11:11:11 pm
content: The stupid thing is that when they're so loud it motivates me to get up and hit mute or turn the volume down to a barely audible level instead of just ignoring it like I otherwise might. Of course in this age it is very rare that I ever hear a commercial since I stream almost all of my content from my own archive or pay services without advertising.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2021, 11:28:45 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on November 18, 2021, 11:11:11 pmSame here. I've given up on regular TV many years ago, might even be a decade. Just couldn't stand the stupid commercials any longer. TV is a dead medium as far as I'm concerned.

author: Neper
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2021, 11:32:08 pm
content: The reach of R128 and similar rules goes further than just tv ads. In the medium term, it will also put an end to the loudness war in the music industry. If they (or further downstream the radio stations, streaming services etc.) have to crank down the overall level of their brutally compressed music to stay within legal limits the producers will think twice about the degree of dynamic compression they'll want to apply.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2021, 11:49:00 pm
content: Compression has been used for many years to try to increase the apparent loudness of commercials.The thing that always annoys me is when movies made for the huge dynamic range of theatre presentation are shown on TV.The conspirators are whispering together, you can't hear, so you wind up the volume.Seconds later, there is a massive explosion, deafening you, & driving the speakers into non linearity.Perhaps some compression would be appropriate there!

author: ejeffrey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2021, 01:59:33 am
content: Many AV receivers have adjustable dynamic range compression for exactly that reason.

author: EPAIII
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2021, 10:23:50 am
content: I am retired now, but for about 45+ years I was one of those engineers. In fact I have been the chief engineer of four TV stations. I worked for at least eight stations and have built completely new studio facilities at several of them. In the others I participated to one degree or another in the almost continuous upgrades that were undertaken. I not only operated the audio equipment, I designed and installed the systems. I AM familiar with this situation/problem.The first thing I must say is the engineers, the actual engineers almost never deny this problem. At least I never met one who did. The people who deny it are audio operators, NOT engineers. These are the guys with long haircuts and metal chains around their necks. They may sound like they know something about it, but their knowledge is very, very shallow. And some of them are sneaky and hide in normal clothes.The most fundamental answer to the "why" question is because the advertising peopleknowthat loud commercials sell more. I put that word in italics because they actually know little or nothing. The fact of the matter is, these people are insecure in their jobs (for good reason) and they always need excuses when the ads don't work as well as desired which is virtually always. And this is not the only excuse they use. You wouldn't believe how much money I have spent because the broadcast antenna on top of that 1000 foot tower is not working properly. They could have done a lot better job of improving the reception with a chain saw, but NO, it was the antenna that was at fault. Anyway, that is the reason for it, plain and simple.So, what is done to the audio? The traditional way of setting audio levels is with a VU meter which has a scale from about -20 db to +3 db with a small range below the -20 db mark for all lesser levels. These traditional audio meters have specific ballistics associated with the way the needle (or string of LEDs) moves: fast rise time with a delayed decay so the peaks can be easily seen. Most look-alike audio meters in consumer electronic devices do not have this kind of ballistics. And the traditional way of judging proper audio level with these meters is about 3 to 5 peaks over the 0 db point on the meter per minute. That is referred to as being "in the red" on the meter because the scale from 0 db to + 3 db is colored red. That's it. In more than 45 years of TV engineering experience, that is the only guidance I was ever given on how to use those meters. Not very precise, is it?How the audio levels are controlled beyond that is something that every TV and radio engineer must learn the hard way. And the environment that engineer is working in has a big influence on that. A top 50 music radio station is going to have a very loud sound. And one that plays only classical music will have a very low sound. Most TV programs are somewhere in between at a happy medium. But the commercials are often not produced at the TV or radio stations and the production companies which do produce them are a whole different environment.Compression? Is that used? You bet it is! But it is not the curse you may think it is. Virtually all TV and radio stations (I don't have any experience with internet streaming channels) have audio processing equipment between the studio and the transmitter. The idea there is to have an audio signal that meets that 3 to 5 peaks "in the red" while maintaining a dynamic range that preserves the intent of the program's producers'. But compression is only one part of that processing. The real low parts of the audio can be expanded or brought up to make them more audible and understandable. And those peaks can be limited in two different ways: a soft limit that applies an increasing amount of compression in the upper one or two dbs of the range and a hard clip that prevents any levels from ever going past a fixed point to avoid over modulation in the transmitter. And the basic compression itself can have many different characteristics.At one TV station where I began working I found that the previous non-engineer engineers had adjusted this equipment with so much compression and expansion that the audio meters at the transmitter barely wiggled up or down between -2 db and +1 db. And it sounded horrible. Almost totally impossible to understand even simple, speech. They had caved in to the demands for louder and louder and louder sound until it was nothing but loud. It took me about two hours on my first Saturday there to get it back to normal.Around 20 or 25 years ago there was a push to remedy this situation. Complaints were heard. The FCC said they were going to fix it. Some of the audio metering equipment companies made new models that measured loudness. They had the traditional modulation meters which were an off the air version of the VU meter I described above, and they added a meter or some other indicator of the overall loudness. Stations, at least some stations bought these new metering devices. And they used them. Did it help? Not really. The same old forces of advertiser's pressure were still at work. And then along came digital. And it was a whole new ball game. It really should not have been all that different, but boy was it.I expect that with another 20 or 30 years of viewer complaints the digital TV and AM and FM and digital radio stations will be forced to take action again. But then there is cable and satellite and internet and streaming and heaven knows what else. I can't even find an agency, local, state, or national, that has even any control over some of these. The audio out there is back to the wild west.In short, here I am, the quintessential engineer at the very heart of this situation and I share your concerns and frustration. I have shared them for decades. Sometimes I have been able to control it and others not. And now, in my retirement, I too run the volume on my TVs up and down. And up and down and up and down and up and down.AAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHAAAAAAGGGGGGGG!Will it ever be better? I fear that I will not live to see that.

author: EPAIII
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2021, 10:29:05 am
content: Compression is the cause of the problem. It is going to be hard to use it as a cure.Quote from: ejeffrey on November 19, 2021, 01:59:33 am

author: EPAIII
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2021, 10:32:46 am
content: And this is precisely what happens when non-engineers are allowed free rein at TV stations and production facilities. They don't know what they are doing and they LIKE LOUD, mostly because their ears are shot.Quote from: vk6zgo on November 18, 2021, 11:49:00 pm

author: Kleinstein
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2021, 10:57:04 am
content: It is time that someone comes up with an automated detection of the commercials, based on the higher loudness. This would stop the practice quite fast.The different volume is also a problem with something like you-tube videos: From not so professional production they are sometimes rather low in volume, while the commercials and others are much louder.

author: Caliaxy
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2021, 01:26:55 pm
content: Unfortunately, it doesn’t only happens in commercials. It affects the music as well.https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/07/opinion/what-these-grammy-songs-tell-us-about-the-loudness-wars.amp.htmlEdit: if the link above asks for a subscription in order to let you read the article, just google “They Really Don’t Make Music Like They Used To” and click/tap on the first result. NYT generally lets you read an article found by google search.

author: TheBay
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 24, 2021, 03:27:37 pm
content: This drives us nuts, the built in speakers are pretty poor on my TV so I have the optical out going in to the DAC on my Naim Hifi and just use the Hifi to watch TV. It works well, until the adverts come on. Not only are they louder, the dynamic range is all over the place and it sounds really quite disturbing. Often we are reaching for the remote to turn it down.In addition to that, does no one mix the audio correctly on TV programmes these days, one minute you can't hear the dialogue so you turn it up a bit, then there is a sound effect or music that frightens the life out of you. I find myself constantly adjusting the volume on the remote.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2021, 04:11:18 pm
content: Quote from: vk6zgo on November 18, 2021, 11:49:00 pmOne of the great advantages of downloading movies and series is that you can use VLC to play them. Unlike a browser based video player, VLC has excellent tone control and automatic level control settings which takes care of these problems.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2021, 04:23:05 pm
content: I would have thought the solution would be obvious. Measure the RMS value of the signal and dial back the gain, if it's too high. Note a normal audio limiting circuit won't work very well because it uses the peak amplitude, when the RMS is more important here.

author: Terry Bites
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2021, 04:59:58 pm
content: Its that area under the curve stuff again. There used to be a block of pixels (top left) on UK TV just before an ad. There was a project I saw back in the stone age that let you use this block to mute the TV. Now you need AI.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2021, 05:20:10 pm
content: Quote from: Terry Bites on November 24, 2021, 04:59:58 pmNot really... first hit from Googlehttps://blog.gdeltproject.org/using-ffmpegs-blackdetect-filter-to-identify-commercial-blocks/

author: ejeffrey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2021, 05:51:02 pm
content: Quote from: EPAIII on November 24, 2021, 10:29:05 amThat's not what I was responding to. I was talking about movies with extremely high dynamic range where a little bit of compression can make it more listenable.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2021, 09:15:32 pm
content: Quote from: ejeffrey on November 24, 2021, 05:51:02 pmThat's precisely what the adjustable compression on the receivers he's talking about is there to help with.

author: MrMobodies
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 25, 2021, 01:11:40 am
content: When I started to use Wintv an Avertv as my television I just pressed M on the keyboard to mute the adverts when they came on due to how loud they were becoming.

author: EPAIII
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2021, 09:34:02 am
content: I guess I was too brief in that answer. But then, I am usually too verbose.And remember the title of this thread. It is not talking about some compression for movies. It is talking about loud commercials. And that generally means loud as compared to the programs they appear in.As I tried to say, there is more than one technique that is used when processing the audio. Compression is ONLY ONE OF THEM, but is is the one that is most responsible for the high perceived loudness of things like commercials. And it is deliberately used to make them loud.With an almost infinite mix of compression with the other techniques that are used in the various steps that an audio track must take to make it from a recording studio to your ears, is is very difficult to design a circuit or computer algorithm that will produce the result that is desired here. Compression is used in all of them and more compression will only make things worse. One important element that would be at the heart of any such device would be one which would UN-COMPRESS the audio. I know that sounds strange, but it is true.The trouble starts after it is un-compressed as it then needs to be set to the correct level for what the particular program calls for. But, no. It starts with that unknown mix of other techniques that were applied AFTER the original compression. If you don't undo them first, then un-compressing will have unknown results. But to undo them, you need to know what they were and how much of each was applied.And some techniques may have been applied before compression. Undoing them first would be exactly wrong, even if you exactly how to do that.Sure, you can use more compression to make the audio levels more consistent. But I fear even the average listener will not like the final result. And they may not be able to put their hand on exactly what it is. Part of what it is would be that the dynamic range is not right. Not in the sense that it does not match the original dynamic range, but in the sense that the two would not track. A classical music person would probably be best able to describe it. A rock music lover would probably say it is not loud enough.Some digital editing software will examine an entire audio track and then apply a level algorithm to the entire track. With fast computers, this can be done in a fraction of the play time and can work fairly well. But it doesn't really undo what has been done before. It just makes things more or less level. And few TV viewers would be willing to wait for one or several minutes for this process to take place.I am sure there will be comments saying that it is not that complicated. But it really is. And the lack of this kind of feature in most TVs and radios and other consumer audio devices is a real strong argument for what I am saying. Sure, there are some with automatic circuits of one kind or another. But they are not very universal. And they probably are not all that much alike in their operation and results.And back to loud commercials. Commercials are inserted before, after, and in breaks in programs. NONE of the above is going to be of any use when a randomly selected, loud commercial is suddenly placed in the middle of a quiet program. Just crank any loud audio down. But then, what about a war movie? How does the system know what is movie and what is commercial?Quote from: james_s on November 24, 2021, 09:15:32 pm

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2021, 11:59:52 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on November 18, 2021, 11:28:45 pmSame. Won't even watch streaming platforms with ads, and besides a few websites (EEVblog, The Register, for instance) I block ads. Those allowed sites are actually generally quite alright with the level of advertisement, it's relevant and not particularly obtrusive.

author: eti
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2021, 08:46:51 pm
content: [Context: streaming programmes, after the fact]Four or so years ago, I said "Hello Pi-Hole" and "Good bye ads" (for the most part).My Pi-Hole (a system you install on a Raspberry Pi) blocks ALL ads on UK ITV, CH4, CH5 and a few more I am sure. I *NEVER* see ads on those channels. For YouTube I use the "Smart Tube Next" app on my Fire TV & generic Android box, and on LG I use "Ad-free YouTube" on a rooted LG 4K TV. Pi-Hole stopped being able to block YT ads a year so ago, since Google made the domains that serve ads, the same as the content-serving ones. No matter, I live ad-free.The one thing that reminds me how ghastly ads are, is when I use YouTube on my iPhone or Android phone, and the DNS-level block is circumvented by them, somehow - that's fine - I don't *watch* the videos on those, I merely "cue them up" and then cast them to "Smart Tube Next" or to the LG "Ad-free YouTube" via the cast mechanism on the mobile apps. Every time I see a stream of OBNOXIOUS, "woke" garbage ads (the last one I saw was the DISGUSTING "manscaped" - yuck!!!) it only serves to reinforce my resolve as to why I shall ALWAYS block ads.They are cheeky too, and get MANY "sucks of the sav" as they say - you wait for the ads to end, and skip forward **just a few seconds** - AND THE ADS PLAY ALL OVER AGAIN!!!!!It's almost as if I can hear a voice saying"Oh, you want to skip a few seconds? That'll cost you another few of our ads!"Someone, someday - someone with an ACTUAL BRAIN THAT FUNCTIONS, in marketing, will find a better way for companies to fund themselves than to steal our time. In the UK, when CH4 or CH5 says "Programme length: 1hr" it's actually 45-47 mins, as the rest is YOUR TIME they STEAL from you.Having said this, I am VERY grateful not to be living in America, where they are allowed to plaster HUGE LOWER THIRD AD BANNERS across the screen - not only that, but they do not fade in subtly, they animatedly BOUNCE AND SCROLL, telling you about the next TV show coming up (attention-deficit society!) - SOME UK channels do this, but it's quite rare (We Brits are more reserved and have good taste, you see)

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2021, 10:05:20 pm
content: And why you watch TV in the first place?