Quick 861DE - aka do I need more than 120L/m - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: tony359
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2021, 11:27:41 pm
content: Hello all,I am thinking of upgrading my Ayoue 852A++ hot air station as I'd like to reflow some larger chips and I feel the 26L/m airflow is not enough for that - besides the horrible noise and also the horrible temperature uniformity of the air stream.Yes, I do also have a pre heating plate which I am using to bring the board to 180 degrees before reflowing and I am indeed trying to follow a reflow profile.Checking online it seems that either the Quick or the Atten are amongst the favourite machines for the job. However, I noticed that both the Atten ST-862D or Quick 861DW come with the same max airflow (120L/m) while the Quick 861DE goes up to 200L/m.Clearly 120L/m is a large upgrade on my Aoyue. I am just wondering whether the 200L version would be useful somehow. Yes, I do understand it has drawbacks - such as noise and speed when removed from the stand. I also understand that 200L/m would likely blow most of the components off the board.For larger BGAs as GPU and APU (say PS4) would you think that more than 120L/m could be a nice feature to have? Maybe when using those large square/rectangular BGA nozzles?Thanks all!

author: ygi
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2021, 04:00:27 pm
content: IMO, don't spend extra money for that as it won't make your job easier/faster.Generally speaking, you want enough air flow so that heat won't dissipate too much before air hits the board but not so much that it makes the job difficult with collateral damage and forever lost components.

author: Electro Fan
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2021, 05:09:59 pm
content: This probably won't help you much, but this seems to get the job done for occasional use:https://www.tequipment.net/Quick/957DW+/Desoldering-Equipment/Rework-Stations/?v=050L/min (Max) vs your current 26L/min. You can get whatever nozzle sizes and shapes you want as accessories.Having said that I found that with soldering irons going from a 50 watt station to a 70 watt station made a noticeable improvement, so being able to get to the temp you want and get there quickly does help and the answer might be a function of what you are heating, how often you are heating it, and your budget. To make a metaphor, for serious driving, having a quick 0-60 MPH and a big top end is nice - it's just a matter of your use case and budget. My guess is for BGAs you might want to go for the gusto up to some reasonable level. When in doubt, maybe give yourself some margin and buy a little more overhead. Buy once, cry once.Point is, I get buying some headroom, but based on what I've seen from articles and videos you sound like a good candidate for the Atten ST-862D or the Quick 861DW. My guess is you could go for either of those, likely be very happy with the results, and put the savings you keep by passing on the Quick 861DE toward something else. Just a guess. Let us know what you decide and how it works.

author: tony359
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2021, 05:46:26 pm
content: Thanks both for the valuable input, I appreciate your time on this.I was checking reviews online, SDG took an air speed reading of the BEST station and it measures between 0.8 and 2.8m/s. I happen to have a similar anemometer so I checked mine: 0.2m/s at max speed.BEST does not advertise the max airflow but as the impeller they use seems to be identical to the Quick's, it seems that 120L/s could be enough. As Electro Fan mentioned, it's nice to have a little headroom - that's why I am happy to invest in a 861DW or similar even though it may be a bit overkilled for my usage - but maybe the DE could indeed be a bit too much, with the additional downsides of the fan taking time to spin down every time the nozzle is removed from the stand, the noise etc. (oh, and the price, even though it's really just £20 difference).Really my only concern would be those 44x44mm square BGA nozzles which I may want to try on larger BGA. It seems that those may indeed benefit from a higher airflow - but not sure how much would be enough for those. Does anybody have any experience with that or knows any document/datasheet that can shed some light on the procedure?

author: Electro Fan
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2021, 08:21:03 pm
content: Not sure about the prices in the UK but in the US the DE is almost 2x the DW. If the DE is really only £20 more, I'd go for the extra performance of the DE and crank it down if you don't need all of it. Seems like they both take up the same space and have the same weight, so £20 more gives you some headroom in case you need it. If it's 2x, I'd go for the DW unless you are running a commercial or near commercial operation.https://www.tequipment.net/Quick/861DW/Desoldering-Equipment/Rework-Stations/?gclid=EAIaIQobChMI3YvMreWE9QIViSlMCh2bWgnoEAAYASAAEgI11_D_BwEhttps://www.tequipment.net/Quick/861DE/Desoldering-Equipment/Rework-Stations/?v=0

author: tony359
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2021, 08:45:23 pm
content: not even £20, it's £15 difference - from the official UK distributor. For twice the price I wouldn't have considered the DE at all.ahah - I had just decided to go with the DW to be honest. I simulated a 120L/m flow using a vacuum cleaner and a plastic pipe and decided that it is plenty for my BGA task (this is assuming the blower can deliver the same flow through the netted nozzle which I am not sure it is the case).As you say, the DE can be turned down to 6 (not 1 like the DW if not mistaken) but still very low so it should be ok for any type of jobs including dying someone's hair I suppose!The distributor won't re-open until 2022 so I have time to decide! Opinions are welcome!

author: Electro Fan
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2021, 09:02:26 pm
content: Just curious, how many £ for the DE vs the DW?

author: tony359
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2021, 09:07:50 pm
content: £250 and £265. From what I read around it's not the first time the DE is similar price than the DW to be honest.Indeed the DW seems to be more expensive here if you convert the currency.

author: Electro Fan
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2021, 09:47:46 pm
content: Unless you can't adjust down to the settings you think you will need not sure why you wouldn't go for the DE.

author: tony359
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2021, 10:05:54 pm
content: looking from reviews, the lowest is 6L/s which should be perfectly fine for anything.The DE has two drawbacks:1. noise when at max2. the blower will go to max speed when the wand is put on the holder. That meansa) it will be noisyb) if you grab the wand again to continue, you have to wait until the blower returns to the set speed. And the DE's blower is slower to change speed than the DW's.That said, I use the hot air station sporadically so I think I can live with both issues and for £15 I have all the overhead I need.Ideally, Quick should set a lower "cooling down" speed - or just allow to disable the feature from a menu.Besides that - and besides that SDG didn't seem to have a good opinion on the 861X, which is the same as DE with a 1.3kW heater element- I agree with you

author: Electro Fan
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2021, 10:53:51 pm
content: Don't let me talk you into anything - you have done a lot of good homework. So go for what you think is best for your requirements. Should be very good whichever one you choose. Please keep us posted. Happy New Year!

author: tony359
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2021, 11:06:58 pm
content: thanks, very kind of you!Again, the shop is closed until January so I am not in a rush right now. And being a UK shop, if the station does not do what it says on the tin I can return it for the other model.I'll surely keep the community posted - Happy new year to you too and thanks for your input so far!

author: RayRay
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2021, 03:34:12 am
content: You might find the following thread useful:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/beginners/hot-air-station-a-few-tips-for-buying/While you could spend a small fortune for a new hot air staiton, you could also get one for way less (that would also be a huge upgrade from the current). Technically, both of the ones I've mentioned there have 120L, but I believe it's a bit more on the Bakon (as I have it, as well as an 858D, and that's my own observation). But apart from just having a better hot air station, you need to realize that sometimes that (by itself) isn't enough, and for BGA type chips, a preheater is a must, and makes a huge difference! There are multiple options in that regards, such as these:https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005002313668029.htmlhttps://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005003640832647.htmlhttps://www.aliexpress.com/item/32269734088.htmlAlternatively, you could get a cheap PTC heating plate, along with a silicone heat-resistant mat:https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005002383494461.htmlhttps://www.aliexpress.com/item/32991519826.htmlThis would save you money, but has it's cons. First one is that the temperature is non-adjustable, and second is that you have to be super careful while using it (only using it on the mat, careful when moving the mat with it after finishing, because the entine plate would be burrrrrning hot!)

author: tony359
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2021, 10:02:22 am
content: Hey, thanks for the links and the suggestions.Yes, I do have a preheating plate. I totally understand that with larger BGA chips it's a must. I've done some measurements on mine and I've come up with a "profile" which works with that machine - it's a classic Chinese plate, the T8280, which works well but it's a little slow. It cost me a reasonable amount of money here in the UK and also got a refund as there was a small metal defect - which I fixed myself. I think I ended up paying it £80 which is a bargain IMHO.Re. the hot air station, I know I could get some from Aliexpress for very little - after all a hot air station is air pumped through a heater - but I'm happy to invest a little on something which has spare parts, service, accessories (the Quick BGA nozzles look very interesting, if not very expensive) and hopefully no surprises in terms of overshooting temperature and uneven temps. I already spent £100+ on my current station some time ago and I am now replacing it because it's not performing well. So as it's been said on this thread, "buy once, cry once". Or as someone else said on another "I wanted a hot air station, not an electronic/mechanical improvement project"I could also get the "Aliexpress" version of the Quick but I'd rather stick with a UK distributor on this occasion.Just to clarify, I am not suggesting that the items you recommended are poor BTW.

author: RayRay
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2021, 08:06:08 pm
content: I get what you're saying, but it's a misconception. Just because something costs more money, it doesn't necessarily mean it's of better quality or significantly better than it's cheaper counterpart. Big brands often allow themselves to charge more money not due to better features/quality, but just because of their reputation and greed. For the record, both of the stations I've mentioned on the other topic have tempertuare calibiration (On the 858D via a potentiometer, accessible with a small flat screwdriver from the front) and on the Bakon, digitally from the menus, it's not that difficult to find spare heaters/fan for either, and in regards to nozzles, the Bakon supports a wide variety of em (incl BGA ones) as it supports the screw-on type nozzles. And for the record, Bakon aside, any 858D station which has a handle that looks like this:https://i.postimg.cc/gjzPxqYS/858handle.jpgAlso supports the screw-on (850 type) nozzles. So you've got other options there too, such as getting an 858D which uses such a handle, or getting the handle in separate even and making it work (that's what I did with my Youyue 858D+) Anyhow, at end the of the day, it's your money, and you're gonna spend it the way you like, but I'm just saying, more expensive doesn't always mean better.

author: tony359
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2021, 09:22:36 pm
content: Unfortunately you're right.I've watched umpteen reviews of the Quick and it seems a good machine, properly built, usually well regarded by the electronic community. Besides it makes the light flicker and that it may not be so accurate with the set temperature (which I am not impressed with but most users seem to be happy with it) I really want to avoid Aliexpress as (almost) everything there comes from a random place where QC is just a foreign pair of characters. Not that the Quick is perfect but looking inside it shows that it's been well-engineered and it looks like I can get it from a reliable place and not risking a copycat.That does not mean that the Bakon is going to be poorly made or anything. Or that the Quick will never break and will perform from day oneBut thanks for your input.

author: tony359
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2021, 10:35:45 am
content: I'm still trying to decide between DW and DE. Using other tools I simulated a 120L/m flow on a 17mm plastic pipe and I feel I may like having the extra juice for preheating boards and for BGA.I also simulated the 6L/m and while it's pretty low i am a bit concerned it may be too much for precision work with very small nozzles.Does anybody have any feedback on that before I place my order please?Thank you!

author: ygi
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2021, 01:03:36 pm
content: Components don't really fly off under 10L/m unless you try your best to make it happenYou can always adjust working distance and angle or use a slightly bigger nozzle if you feel there's a risk.Also some air flow is necessary to smooth those power spikes otherwise heating element will die fast.

author: tony359
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2021, 02:05:46 pm
content: Thank you!Then I guess it’s going to be the DE.I’m assuming that if the firmware allows 1L/m (that’s the DW) then the heating element is safe - after all it seems the quick is throwing half wavelengths at it when needed - hence the flickering lights.Anyways, it was just a little paranoia of mine. I’m sure I won’t need to use 6L/m ever. 🙂Thank you!

author: Simon1983
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: January 02, 2022, 07:57:53 pm
content: Hey guys,just be aware to avoid buying an ST-861. That's the one I've bought as a cheap alternative to the Quick 861xx, because I thought they were identical. They aren't. The ST-861 does use a cheaper blower. The shallow brushless motor is only voltage-controlled; only two wires are going directly to the "mainboard" at the front (there is no fan driver board). The Quick has a brushless motor with external driver board and hall sensors.My station has the problem that the fan sometimes doesn't hold the set speed steadily, but surges up and down. It seems that the internal little control board of the fan motor doesn't really like the lower voltages on low settings (it is not very nicely filtered), and it also is temperature-dependent (I mean the temperature of the workshop; in my case an only semi-heated garage which can cool down to 10°C/50°F and under). The MOSFET for the fan output has a heatsink but it gets to around 100°C/212°F at low fan speeds.I tried adding an inductor, snubber diode and bigger cap (setup like a buck converter) to smoothen the output voltage to the fan, but that will shift the lowest fan speed up too high. I tried the fan on my lab power supply and adjusted it to the same speed that it runs when the station is set to 10 (air speed). If I only drop the dc voltage 1V down the fan surges or stoppes (until power cycling).IMHO the fan setup in my station is not suited for the application. At lower speeds (which I often use and need!) the fan is operated at it's edge, since there is no speed feedback and the mainboard tries to drive the fan outside it's voltage range. I already fried one heater of the station and am looking for a new station. I have fiddled around enough on this one. Maybe it will be the "real" Quick 861xx station, or the Best BST863. Don't know yet.

author: ygi
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2022, 03:31:20 pm
content: Seems like you gotta pick your fake Quick carefully. Got mine from amazon market place for 120euro delivered (a few years ago). Sure, it was put together by sloppy workers and needed rewiring but it's got all the expected - fit for purpose - parts. Now that I think about it, it came with a barely serviceable 70cm silicon hose that I replaced for ~5$. All in all, mine was a great deal.

author: tony359
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2022, 06:47:39 pm
content: Yes, I remember seeing a "fake quick" disassembled and I could see the blower motor was driven by two wires only.I eventually got the 861DE - from the official UK distributor.I'm quite pleased with it and doesn't feel overkilled for my purposes at all.I made a quick (!) review video of it as there are no reviews for the DE version in English (note: I do not make money on my youtube channel, it's only for fun!).Let me know what you think!

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2022, 11:40:56 pm
content: Yeah looking at your setup, and presumably the work you do, it does not seem overkill.