Your view? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2015, 07:37:06 pm
content: Every now and again, college/university/education is discussed by folks on this forum. This is about a college girl who likely is not interested in EE. But I am interested in your thoughts about this college girl.* * * *In a nutshell: blew through a $90,000 college fund on expensive clothes and a trip to Europe and now has no way to pay for her senior year, a predicament she blames on her parents.She contacted “The Bert Show” after the school had just mailed her the tuition bill for her senior year, according to Yahoo's financial news website. She explained that she was short about $20,000 for her final two semesters.She told “The Bert Show” that it was allher parents fault for not showing her how to manage her money.In another call, the young woman said her parents told her there was nothing they could do for her because they didn’t have any money.She accused her father of being a “little bit of a jerk about it” after she told him she was broke.“They’re not being honest with me, saying they don’t have it becausemy father has worked for like a million years and they have a retirement account,” Kim said.[RL comment: in the USA, some of us don't have pension but have retirement accounts ("IRA" and/or401Kper tax laws). Some have 401K/IRA to supplement their pension. For more and more folks, their 401K will be their only retirement income.401K/IRA cannot be touched until a certain age or penalty will apply($ penalty, not jail). I have no idea what is the father's situation, and I don't know if Kim realize that penalty may apply making the money very expensive to touch even if they are willing.]She saidher parents suggested she take out a loan with the credit union. “And I’m like, 'How am I supposed to do that?'” she said.The next day Kim told the show she went down to the credit union after all to apply for a loan. She said the loan officer told her she would need her parents as co-signers because she didn’t work and didn’t have collateral.Kim told the showher parents wouldn’t co-sign unless she got a part-time job.“I don’t know. Maybe I’ll tell my parentsI’ll be a stripper if they don’t co-sign,” the woman said.In a fourth call to the station, Kim said her situation had improved. Her loan had been approved and she was looking for a job, as much as that pained her.This originated from a radio show and reported on various news sites. The above are paritial quotes from:http://www.foxnews.com/us/2015/07/19/college-student-blames-parents-after-blows-0g-college-fund/* * * *From the text I bold above, I suppose you gathered that I think she has no chance of success in life as she failed to take personal responsibility in her own life. Instead, she sees fit to raid what her parent might have saved for their remaining years.What do you think? I am interested in your thoughts in part because my daughter is approaching college age.Rick

author: Mephitus
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2015, 07:52:48 pm
content: I have a hard time with her as I was kicked out homeless by my parents on my 19th birthday (they are religious zealots). So had to learn money management the hard way. If she cant see the critical hole in her knowledge and then immediatly attempt to fix it through her own study, she has no reason to be attending college in the first place.

author: retrolefty
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2015, 07:55:38 pm
content: Stupid comes in all genders.

author: Richard Crowley
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2015, 07:55:48 pm
content: Someone who is that remarkably clueless after 3 years of "higher education" speaks very badly of the school.Not to mention that her parents didn't do a terribly good job of supervising her adolescence, either.I find it almost impossible to have any sympathy for people like that. She will become a loyal Democrat entitlement leach.

author: dr.diesel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2015, 07:56:38 pm
content: That brat can just deal with it, on her own. I already feel sorry for the poor sap that gets conned into marrying her.

author: AF6LJ
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 23, 2015, 07:59:07 pm
content: I really don't think you really want to hear my thoughts on a spoiled brat BimBO who perhaps should not been allowed to attend college in the first place.

author: jancumps
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 23, 2015, 08:20:49 pm
content: I'd leave this to reality tv. Let's get on with electronics.

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 23, 2015, 08:43:07 pm
content: Higher education for her is a waste of time and money. She needs to learn to be a human being first.

author: apis
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2015, 09:02:05 pm
content: We only have one (seemingly biased) side of the story... if this is even a real person. It's obviously presented in a way so we are supposed to think she is a spoiled brat.

author: Richard Crowley
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2015, 09:03:23 pm
content: Quote from: apis on July 23, 2015, 09:02:05 pmShe appears to be self-identifying as a spoiled brat. Or at least she self-reports spoiled-brat-like behaivor.

author: orbiter
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2015, 09:08:20 pm
content: Funny how she didn't need a 'real serious talk' on how to spend it!

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2015, 09:12:12 pm
content: Quote from: AF6LJ on July 23, 2015, 07:59:07 pmAs I said, my kid is approaching college age. I am aware when one forms a position based on one's experience alone without further input, one can indeed get extreme or inflexible and not realize it as extreme or as too inflexible to be practical.So, I am genuinely interested in the view from forum members, yours included. (But I read between the lines between BimBO and the rest.)I am trying to discern if there is a perception that the parent is too inflexible (you get a part time job then we'll help) and if the daughter is "one of many" or "one in many"; or other thoughts I haven't even thought about.

author: McBryce
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2015, 09:19:48 pm
content: I think she'll succeed. She's a wreck at the moment, but with every call she had changed her ways and learnt something. Someone who learns and adapts always comes out good.McBryce.

author: Andy Watson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2015, 09:20:53 pm
content: Perhaps a year out at the University of Life would be best for her education, and for everybody else she meets.

author: Richard Crowley
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2015, 09:22:32 pm
content: If the parents had any decent understanding of their daughter's behavior patterns, they wouldn't have made their hard-earned money available to her to mis-use like that in the first place.And both the parents and the bank requiring her to go out and get a job is simple Common Sense. She seems to display a very poor grasp of what it takes to survive in the Real World.I can only think that the parents just sent her off to college in hopes of marrying her off to some poor sucker to get her out of the house. I know that is a pretty jaded view, but from the brief data, it appears to be a rather catastrophic failure of BOTH parenting and formal education.I heard a talk show recently discussing the matter of higher education vs. vocational education. There was no dearth of people calling in with graduate degrees who make more money as plumbers or truck drivers than they did in their university-prepared area of study. And no lack of college/uni grads who were finding it very difficult to land a job in their selected profession.

author: AF6LJ
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 23, 2015, 09:24:27 pm
content: Being female I find myself embarrassed for her, and for the rest of us females that she reflects badly upon. I also find it funny in this Karmic sort of way that she will be paying for that college education for a very long time, unless she finds a sugar daddy to pony up the money.EDIT:Does anybody know what she majored in???

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2015, 09:30:15 pm
content: Quote from: Rick Law on July 23, 2015, 09:12:12 pmIMHO getting a part time job is a good way to learn the value of money. I tell my own kids to get a part time job if they want to have more money to spend. Just pouring money into a bottomless pit doesn't seem right to me. At some points kids need to be smart enough to hold up their own pants but they will make mistakes anyway. There are just too many greedy bankers and insurance companies out there with traps for young players. Bottom line: be prepared to support your kids every now and then until you die

author: Mephitus
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2015, 09:31:16 pm
content: Quote from: AF6LJ on July 23, 2015, 09:24:27 pmI would be willing to gamble that she did "gender studies".

author: GreyWoolfe
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 23, 2015, 09:38:02 pm
content: I read the story on Foxnews.com. I was a bit saddened. Ultimately, this isn't all on her. We are a product of our environment. As parents, it is our job and duty to properly train up our children. I can't speak of the parents if they did or not and she just didn't take the life lessons taught by them to heart. Something was certainly lacking somewhere. That was a bit nervy that she expected her parents to give up their retirement and their comfort in their golden years for her. The worse part of it is her airing her dirty laundry on the radio. If my child did that to me, I would surely think twice about help of any kind. I am also sure the tone she took with them wasn't appreciated. I would have told her to go be a stripper, if she was good enough, she could earn the money in a few weeks. I am glad to see that her parents took a strong stance and set conditions for help. Anything freely given is rarely appreciated. She started on the road of learning life lessons and I hope she continues to learn well. For now, I will give her the benefit of the doubt and not refer to her as a Democrat entitlement leach. Only time will tell if she will deserve that description.

author: suicidaleggroll
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2015, 09:40:15 pm
content: Quote from: Rick Law on July 23, 2015, 09:12:12 pmNot at all, it's a very reasonable response in my opinion.My parents had a rule before I went to college that they would only be able to pay for half. I managed to cover my half with scholarships, and it was understood that if I screwed anything up and lost those scholarships, I would have to make up the difference. I didn't, but if I had I would be in the same position as the girl in this story. The difference is I would know it was my fault, without a doubt, and I would feel relieved if my parents were willing to cosign on a loan to cover the remainder of my tuition. Asking me to get a part time job as part of the deal would only be reasonable.The girl in this story sounds like a worthless waste of life. You would think that after three years of higher education she might have grown and matured beyond the level of a 13 year old, but apparently she didn't.

author: Richard Crowley
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2015, 09:45:11 pm
content: Quote from: Mephitus on July 23, 2015, 09:31:16 pmThe talk-show host said almost exactly the same thing. He proposed that any degree in "_____ Studies" should be discontinued as essentially useless in the Real World.

author: McBryce
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2015, 09:48:20 pm
content: Quote from: AF6LJ on July 23, 2015, 09:24:27 pmNuclear physics?McBryce.

author: AF6LJ
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 23, 2015, 11:58:50 pm
content: Quote from: Mephitus on July 23, 2015, 09:31:16 pmNow there is a career choice where the sky is the limit (if you get high).

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 24, 2015, 12:06:39 am
content: At college age the buck stops with you.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2015, 12:13:13 am
content: You mention that you have a child about to go to university. It is far more important that you have this conversation with her/him than with those of us on the forum. If there is any disconnect between you, it might then be appropriate to go outside your family for discussion about who might be more correct.In my opinion the ideal situation is for you to be close enough to your kids you would have had this conversation (multiple times) and would have had few surprises because you have been influencing them for their entire lives. Not everyone achieves this ideal. I didn't. But I got close enough that we survived the bumps and they have turned out pretty well in the end.

author: Deathwish
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 24, 2015, 12:26:06 am
content: Please do not tell me she did Social Work. Although I have a sneaky suspicion she may have done psychology or such in order to try manipulating the parents.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 24, 2015, 12:38:31 am
content: This says it all:Quoteand thenQuoteNo shit Sherlock!

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 24, 2015, 12:42:31 am
content: Quote from: AF6LJ on July 23, 2015, 09:24:27 pmWhat's gender got to do with it?

author: AF6LJ
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 24, 2015, 12:53:29 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on July 24, 2015, 12:42:31 amWell I just hate it when members of my own sex embarrass the rest of us.

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 24, 2015, 12:56:51 am
content: "Being a human, I find myself embarrassed for her, and for the rest of of us humans that she reflects badly upon."I like that better. We are all human and should be given the same opportunities, independent of race or gender. We deserve the same ridicule on the same basis.

author: Mechanical Menace
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2015, 12:57:34 am
content: Quote from: AF6LJ on July 24, 2015, 12:53:29 amYou have no need to feel guilt for anything you didn't do. She's the idiot not you. Sharing a taste in what you like to read probably makes you have more in common with any person than sharing gonads...I totally blew my first chance at uni partying like an idiot, that's not a mark against cisgender straight blokes but against me. Personally I actually paid for my stupidity and never blamed anyone else for it but different strokes for different folks, walk a mile in my shoes sort of thinking, I also never had tens of grands handed to me like it's nothing to deal with.Quote from: Lightages on July 24, 2015, 12:56:51 am+1

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 24, 2015, 12:59:24 am
content: Quote from: AF6LJ on July 24, 2015, 12:53:29 amAgain, what's it got to do with reflection upon gender?This stupid over-privileged kid could have been male or female.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 24, 2015, 01:01:08 am
content: Quote from: Lightages on July 24, 2015, 12:56:51 am+1

author: AF6LJ
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 24, 2015, 01:47:04 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on July 24, 2015, 12:59:24 amActually Dave her sex is stated in the first paragraph of the post.Being female I am afforded a certain level of privilege when commenting on members of my sex.From the post....Quote

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 24, 2015, 02:36:04 am
content: I have heard similar stories for years. Female or male, children being little privileged brats expecting their parents to pay everything, including their errors and idiocy and at total loss to the parents. It has nothing to do with being a female.

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2015, 02:37:10 am
content: Quote from: CatalinaWOW on July 24, 2015, 12:13:13 amYou bet! I am close to her and we have conversations on this topic since she was in elementary school. I prefer to first form a view, validate my views, then state my position to her. She can challenge my view if she can justify it. I prefer "adult views" in my formation and validation stage (sanity check). Yesterdays right answer may not be right today.She is a good kid for the most part. I am just very demanding.I am also very close to her education and education in general. I know she will have a very hard time with post high school education given the decline of our systems.

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2015, 02:41:28 am
content: Quote from: Lightages on July 24, 2015, 02:36:04 amEntitlement attitude is common, but it has nothing to do with privilege or brat, male or female. In my view, "Privilege brat" is home made. It is what the parent shaped their kid to be by either their action or inaction.

author: Shock
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2015, 03:50:52 am
content: To make sure it doesn't happen, be the one who pays for it out of your account directly. Make it clear from the outset that this is education money and will only ever be education money, and if their track record with passing grades goes down hill they will need to turn to working to support themselves until they prove they are back on track.

author: pickle9000
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2015, 04:34:24 am
content: Wouldn't it be amazing to have severely reduced rate or even free university level education for all students during the first 2 years? I wonder what that would do for the economy in 10 years?

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2015, 04:47:51 am
content: Then High School teachers would be teaching those first 2 years at the same pay grade as they get now.But if you are willing to double your property taxes for the good of the economy I guess they could take the extra cash to pay the professors a decent professor level salary for those 2 free years.

author: pickle9000
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2015, 05:05:46 am
content: Quote from: miguelvp on July 24, 2015, 04:47:51 amOr cut down on military spending by 1%. Of course in Canada that mean no aircraft carrier (that's a rowboat with a piece of plywood on top. We could keep our battleships, two of them still float!

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2015, 05:09:16 am
content: Quote from: pickle9000 on July 24, 2015, 04:34:24 amMost likely, free university will make the degree worthless to more students. People will not put much value or effort to achieve something that costs nothing. It will become a 4 year vacation while taking worthless easy courses. End result will be plenty of kids with a degree but without employable skills.You can see this happening in the USA today. Kim that my original post was about, she didn't had to contribute to her first 3 years. She was spending the college fund for "expensive clothing and European vacation".It was knowledge of other cases like this leading me to conclude: to best ensure my daughter doesn't miss the value of the education, she has to bear more of the cost.This particular case was just a good example I can use as a conversation starter so I can gauge "am I too much of a tiger" in the context of "tiger mom." (Well of course "tiger dad" in my case, the original newspaper story was "tiger mom" so if I say "tiger dad", it may leave too many of you scratching your head.)

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2015, 05:43:18 am
content: My daughter works while being in college and even pays most of her own rent.Funny enough, to teach her the value of money we did sent her to Europe but backpacking and doing workaway programs (work for a place to sleep and some places would actually fed her), cost us little and at 18 she learned pretty fast what it takes to be on your own and on top of that she got to see other cultures and had a blast.We did send her some money for food every now and then but not much, but she would go to the markets and got the produce at a discount towards the end of the day, even the menu of the day in most places was in her mind too much to spend, so she usually cooked her own food and found the best bargains, specially on fruits and vegetables that have been sitting for half a day and discounted towards the end of the day.Now she is very frugal and doesn't like to waste food. She was going to college to be on her own anyways and I did some traveling at her age myself (then again I was still in Spain so it was easy for me).Some of our friends couldn't understand why on earth would we send her to foreign countries on her own, on how dangerous that is, etc etc etc. Being on your own is really not that dangerous, I find the US more dangerous than Europe, and at 18 is about the best age to see the world on your own (six months).One funny thing is that one day she was on Italy called us to ask us for permission to go to Berlin with some friends (she made a lot of friends over her trip) me and my wife looked at each other a bit perplexed and replied to her, "Don't you get it? you are an adult now, but thanks for asking, just keep us informed on your whereabouts and phone numbers of your friends in case we don't hear from you".Many here might not agree on what we did, but that's our version of kicking our kids out of the nest because it's time to learn to fly.And I know what that trip meant to her because I did the same, my wife did the same at her age as well. You just can't do that on your mid 20s or older because no one is going to let you stay at their place. At the end of your teens you find open doors everywhere.Of course when she came back she was a bit condescending towards everyone because she was a world traveler and she knew everything worth to know in this earth because of her six month adventure. But that was two years and a half ago when she came back to go to college, and she has been pretty independent ever since.Another funny thing is that her grand parents from my wife side, have never been outside of the US. So we are taking them along to visit my parents in Spain in September, they've never met in person and I'm past half a century old so it's about time they meet before they can't, and it's been a long time since I saw my parents last. My daughter has seen them more than me on the last decade.

author: pickle9000
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2015, 05:59:58 am
content: Quote from: Rick Law on July 24, 2015, 05:09:16 amMy argument would be that even the most basic jobs can benefit from higher education. 30 years ago it was possible to work and pay your way through uni. Today while that may be technically possible in reality a very difficult thing to do. It's easy to say to a high school graduate do this or that but if the family is low on cash it's out the door and to work.Would it devalue the power of the degree, sure. Would it benefit the economy? I would say that education always benefits the economy, and certainly benefits the individual. Generally I would say that a massive section of the population (worldwide) do not have "real" access to higher education.

author: McBryce
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2015, 07:26:58 am
content: Quote from: pickle9000 on July 24, 2015, 04:34:24 amYou mean like it is in Germany?McBryce.

author: pickle9000
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2015, 07:45:34 am
content: Quote from: McBryce on July 24, 2015, 07:26:58 amThat's a thing in Germany? How do they pay for it and how long has it been implemented? Is it working?

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2015, 08:26:32 am
content: Quote from: Rick Law on July 24, 2015, 05:09:16 amOfcourse not. A good education is important and even with the government paying for the education it doesn't mean the bar to pass exams should be set low. Having typed that: the system in the NL has been like that for a while but it didn't push all the students to make progress or really think about what they wanted to learn. The system got changed where students can take a loan (if they can't pay for university) which can be payed back over a long period and the payment plan is also based on the salary. I think it is a good tradeoff because it keeps a good education available to everybody. I always say: The road to prosperity of a society is paved with good education.If good education isn't available to everybody then you'll write off a lot of good talent. I recently saw a documentary from China. Over there poor parents can have their children raised and well educated in fosterhomes so the children don't end up in poverty. It is extreme but at least it breaks the poverty cycle.

author: McBryce
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2015, 08:32:46 am
content: Quote from: pickle9000 on July 24, 2015, 07:45:34 amSome German states charge you €500 per Semester, but most don't. There's a €50 registration fee, but that's it. Not sure when that was implemented, but it was before I got here, so at least 25 years. Universities are funded through tax.McBryce.

author: Howardlong
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2015, 08:52:07 am
content: Quote from: McBryce on July 24, 2015, 08:32:46 am30 years ago, the UK government (or local government) paid a grant to pay for living costs, and the tuition fees were met by the government too. That level of living cost grant was means tested, determined by your parents' wealth.Over the intervening years, firstly the cost of living grant has been replaced by a government backed loan scheme, and more recently tuition fees are also met by the loan scheme. Coincidentally (well, not at all really), the percentage of school leavers going to university rather than into a job as mushroomed. The problem we now have is that a university education has become devalued, with about 50% of school leavers now attending tertiary education. It was much more the exception rather than the default position to go to university when I went. In contrast, Germany concentrates much more on an on the job vocational approach to training, with barely a quarter of their school leavers attending university.While I applaud the promotion of education, I have never understood why you need a degree to do many of the jobs that younger graduates do these days, now that the bar has been risen.

author: HighVoltage
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2015, 09:01:43 am
content: My nice is just starting University here in Germany and had to pay the Euro 50 registration fee for the semester and was complaining about it. When I told her that she should look to other countries and find out how much they are paying for a semester, she only said that she is in Germany and is expecting this to be free.

author: Shock
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2015, 02:43:28 pm
content: Quote from: HighVoltage on July 24, 2015, 09:01:43 amTell her your tax money is paying her education. When she works full time then she can start complaining about where her money goes and what the fees should be.

author: AF6LJ
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 24, 2015, 02:46:57 pm
content: Quote from: Lightages on July 24, 2015, 02:36:04 amYour quite right this behavior does transcend the boundaries of biological sex.As my roommate likes to put it "This kind of behavior begins with improper potty training."The implication being that the improper upbringing began not long after birth.

author: Mechanical Menace
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2015, 02:55:58 pm
content: Quote from: Shock on July 24, 2015, 02:43:28 pmWhy does full time make a difference? Are her taxes on any hypothetical part time income not also paying for that education? Isn't the VAT she pays, local taxes, and every other tax they wangle into everything?Why do only full time workers have the right to say anything? I pay more tax than most of them so they should have less right to say anything about it than me, is that fair?By your logic as soon as anyone pays more tax than you do you have no right to comment, complain, or even just have an opinion on anything unless you pay more tax than everybody else in the world.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2015, 04:14:45 pm
content: Well. here in South Africa education up till 16 is nominally free, though there are a lot of grade 10 leavers who are unable to do more than write down their name, possibly read a little, can count up to 10 possibly, and who expect that they should go to university, and that they should pay no fees, do not need to actually learn and that after 4 years they will automatically get a degree, a government job, a car, a house, clothing and food ( and of course booze in large amounts), all for just being there.When you have "students" saying that they want things, and that they should not pay for anything, and that they find things not to their liking and burning them, vandalising them, and generally making it impossible for those students who are paying, are studying and who will graduate with a valid degree to do anything. All things that are a result of them never actually being taught anything in school or at home.

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2015, 04:15:29 pm
content: State and federal funding for universities in the US only covers 20% of their budget. US universities are good because of the extra 80% that comes from research, tuition, sports and alumni donations.

author: Shock
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2015, 04:51:15 pm
content: Quote from: Mechanical Menace on July 24, 2015, 02:55:58 pmFrom your reply I see you missed the point of my comment entirely and think I was initiating a tax or workers rights debate, please keep trying until you understand it, I couldn't have put it any simpler.

author: Mechanical Menace
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2015, 04:57:08 pm
content: Quote from: miguelvp on July 24, 2015, 04:15:29 pmApart from sports* that's where most universities worldwide get most of their income no matter how their students tuition is paid.*I've never understood how school sports days can be a commercial product. Or how that sort of thing can even be morally or ethically connected to a place of learning.Quote from: Shock on July 24, 2015, 04:51:15 pmIf the point wasn't "she's not paying for it I am so has no right to have an opinion on the situation" then the failing wasn't my comprehension but your ability to get a point across. I didn't think you were initiating a debate but missing that while yeah you're paying towards her education so is she as no one pays 0% tax whether they work full time or not.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2015, 05:20:48 pm
content: The school sports day thing has it's roots in something that was dogma in US universities at least in the late 1800s. "A sound mind in a strong body." That philosophy is still supported by current thinking that says some level of physical activity improves thinking.As to how it can be commercialized it is like any other entertainment medium. If people enjoy watching it, you charge them for it. People will generally pay more for better quality, as evidenced by winning. I don't see anything wrong with this. Some say that student athletes are being disadvantaged because such a tiny fraction will ever earn a living in professional sports. If a high employment rate in the field of study were the actual standard for inclusion in university curricula whole departments would disappear. Sumerian languages? Art appreciation? Astrophysics? Philosophy? Others complain that the universities are making profits while not paying the student athletes. Has no one heard of graduate students? University research portfolios live of the product of unpaid or barely paid students. It is just the cost of admission to a desired lifestyle.

author: Shock
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2015, 05:29:24 pm
content: Quote from: Mechanical Menace on July 24, 2015, 04:57:08 pmSorry man can't dumb it down for you any more than I already have. Perhaps you know someone who can explain it a little simpler to you, assist with the language and such.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2015, 05:35:36 pm
content: Universal free education has its appeal, but as stated above, there is a need for unwavering standards. Those who don't meet the standard need pressure toward the off ramp.Some personal experience shows one of the difficulties. A couple of decades ago I got a part time job as a lecturer at a local university. I was assigned a junior level course in that universities "Electrical Engineering Technology" program. Here in the states Technology degrees can be a sound degree, but they generally emphasize practical experience and application over theory.I discovered that the course, which was required for graduation in the discipline, was known as a flunk out course. It was almost always assigned to a part time lecturer, since full time staff did not want to deal with the various consequences of a high failure rate in the class. These consequences ranged from the perception of poor teaching ability, to dealing with the protests of those who failed and included the extra office hour time required to deal with struggling students.Students arriving at this class had the benefit of no standards in their prior education. Some were fine, and did fine in the class, which was not horribly challenging. Simple RLC circuits, bridges and multi-phase circuits. But some were woefully unprepared. In office hours I discovered that one student could not deal with Ohms law because he was unable to do arithmetic. Using a calculator. This student, and society had received little or no benefit from the years of time and money which had gone into him reaching my class.

author: Mechanical Menace
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2015, 05:36:43 pm
content: Quote from: Shock on July 24, 2015, 05:29:24 pmSorry, I don't know anyone who speaks back peddling sanctimonious arsewipe. Maybe you can get one of your care workers to translate it into English?

author: Shock
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2015, 05:42:03 pm
content: Quote from: Mechanical Menace on July 24, 2015, 05:36:43 pmLook I said I can't, getting abusive is not going to help.

author: HighVoltage
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2015, 05:43:01 pm
content: The point I wanted to make was not in relationship where the money comes from, but more in direction of appreciation. Here in Germany, the education is almost free and people can choose what and where they want to study. Although, a university degree is not what it used to be, it is still a really good education for a successful start in to a business life.And what I am noticing here is the fact, that many young students, including my nice, have no appreciation for this system. Gadgets and closing and the latest fashion is much more important. She is buying herself the latest shirts and "stuff" and never complains about those things costing money. So, just a few days ago, I got really furious with her because of her point of view.

author: Shock
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2015, 05:45:53 pm
content: Quote from: HighVoltage on July 24, 2015, 05:43:01 pmExactly.

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2015, 05:54:32 pm
content: Quote from: Shock on July 24, 2015, 05:42:03 pm

author: Mechanical Menace
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2015, 06:05:52 pm
content: Quote from: Shock on July 24, 2015, 05:42:03 pmHonestly the words pot kettle and black are coming to mind. You started the abuse with your first response to me, offering no more explanation of how I missed your point than "you're dumb you dummy." You don't want abuse don't be the one to start dishing it out. Fair enough?

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2015, 06:37:26 pm
content: Quote from: CatalinaWOW on July 24, 2015, 05:35:36 pmI was fortunate enough to benefit from the free university education in the UK that Howard described above. But being free meant it was in limited supply, and the bar was set high. First, gaining entry: for popular subjects high grades were needed and many didn't make the grade. If you did get in, you needed to maintain high grades to stay enrolled. Failure to pass annual exams meant being thrown off the course (i.e. out of the university).But at the time, there were also many vocational alternatives for those who didn't get into university. There were colleges of higher education where you could study more vocational subjects. There were opportunities to join training schemes with employers who sponsored part time study towards qualifications on day release or evenings. Students who didn't make it to university found other paths, and in many cases made it to university a few years later.It was a system possibly similar to how Germany is today. As to the relative merits we only have to compare the industrial bases of Germany and the UK. It is clear which country still has big automotive companies, chemical companies, automation companies and other engineering companies. (Hint: it isn't the UK.)

author: AF6LJ
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 24, 2015, 06:41:02 pm
content: Quote from: SeanB on July 24, 2015, 04:14:45 pmI don't think I could have said it any better especially since we have seen that kind of behavior here in the states where school is paid for by the public through the grade twelve.A smart man once said something roughly like this.Adversity makes menProsperity makes monsters.

author: GreyWoolfe
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 25, 2015, 02:45:34 am
content: AcHmed99, I know that's your sister, but $4k? It might be time to say, "I love you, but..."

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2015, 04:07:46 am
content: The old rule is to never loan money to family. Consider it a gift. That way you keep speaking when they don't pay it back. If you aren't willing to give a gift of that size, just don't do it. While sometimes family loans are repaid, in the vast majority of cases they just fade away.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 26, 2015, 11:12:30 am
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on July 26, 2015, 10:46:45 amYou think the radio station found the blew it girl?Nope, she called them. Another one of her failings.

author: XynxNet
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2015, 11:16:22 am
content: Reading stories like that, I am really glad about our more or less free education system.Nevertheless even in Germany there are people who drown themselfs in dept during their education, but the responsibility part is more obvious.

author: G7PSK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2015, 11:22:29 am
content: Quote from: IanB on July 24, 2015, 06:37:26 pmOn the car poduction side You are a little out of date,http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2210199/Britain-producing-MORE-cars-Germany-How-UK-car-production-capital-Europe.htmlBut on the rest of I have to largely agree the university for all policy has done nothing but bring standards down, the system as it was in the 60,s and 70,s was far better, but the rot really set in when Harold Wilson made it obligatory to pay equal wages to both apprentices and qualified workers after that you could not get a proper apprenticeship, they have now introduce state sponsored schemes but they are wishy washy to say the least and the standard of the people coming out is rather poor on the whole.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2015, 11:35:56 am
content: Quote from: CatalinaWOW on July 25, 2015, 04:07:46 amAmen to that.................

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2015, 11:58:30 am
content: Quote from: AcHmed99 on July 26, 2015, 11:45:06 amDon't give her the money.Pay her rent or buy the groceries for her but don't give her any cash.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2015, 12:04:02 pm
content: Don't expect it back, not don't give the money. If you know she has a substance abuse problem pay the bill or do the grocery shopping as well. I don't have to worry about the last though.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2015, 11:54:38 pm
content: There are 7B people in the world. Expect diversity, just as we have it here.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 27, 2015, 02:09:07 am
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on July 26, 2015, 08:52:13 pmIt's a topic that was raised, this is a forum, it gets discussed.Why do you care?

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 27, 2015, 08:30:03 am
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on July 27, 2015, 08:14:54 amI think these stories mostly get published to entertain those who just like to be angry. However, as you go through a life that's relatively sanely run, its important to be kept aware of the bizarre range of things other people do. Without that, you will have no clue how society should be run, or why there is substantial support for some very odd choices about how society is being run.

author: AF6LJ
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 27, 2015, 01:46:02 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on July 27, 2015, 08:14:54 amThese kinds of stories make people feel better about themselves, their lives are not that screwed up. Most people like to think that in some way, shape, or form, they are better than a segment of the population. This story and others like it fill that need.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 27, 2015, 02:04:03 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on July 27, 2015, 08:14:54 amReminds me of a quote I heard from the host of that Amazing Race TV show. People keep coming up to him and telling them how good they'd be at it because of blah-blah and they should be on the next show. His response is something like "you don't get it, we don't want people who are good at it, no one would want to watch you."He's bang-on.

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 27, 2015, 10:10:10 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on July 27, 2015, 08:14:54 amre: "That's what I'm asking about, why do people raise it, why do people like to discuss it?"I am the one who raise it initially. My reason is as follow:My daughter is approaching college age. My view is "people placing no value on something free." So, since elementary school, I have set her expectation that for college she will be contributing >50% $-share of her own education.Without going into details; since her early age, me and my wife have always "make it happen" for her. We have done whatever we could to give her a superb education and set her on a good path so far. Once she is away for college and away from our influence, last thing I want her to have is an entitlement attitude like Kim.At times, I feel I am too harsh. At time, I feel I am on the right track. So,I posted this Kim's story as a conversation starter. Her parent's experience is the kind of nightmare I am trying to avoid. Not the dollars per-se but the attitude. The attitude that leads to a degree but no marketable skills.I went to college over 30 years ago. I worked through college and then graduate school. Giving up a professional photographer job and instead wait on tables while in college was difficult but I made it through. But I know today's environment is a good bit different. Loans are more available these days, and jobs are not.So my 30 year+ ago experience may be inapplicable or perhaps even inappropriate today.Many here graduated college more recent than I. Many here went through the same thought process about their kid's college education as I am starting to now.So, my goal is to hear the diverse and thoughtful views from members of this forum. As I said, do a sanity check.So, I carefully read about the snares, the laughter, the objections, and all the views in between just to compare notes.I must add, so far, I feel more reaffirmed than I was.(Thanks for all your input)Rick

author: Mechanical Menace
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 27, 2015, 10:31:59 pm
content: Quote from: Rick Law on July 27, 2015, 10:10:10 pmI'm in the UK and all of my education (except my first trip to uni) has been handed to me on a silver platter. I still always appreciated it and saw it's worth. Some people appreciate certain things no matter what, other's don't. Just ask yourself this, does your daughter love learning that there's more to know? If that's so, even if her choice of subject isn't what you'd have hoped for, she'll appreciate higher education even if it was just something that everybody had to do and do something with it given the chance.Quote from: Rick Law on July 27, 2015, 10:10:10 pmThe having to work through uni etc for me was reversed, my grandparents didn't have to, my parents did if they wanted to party, I had to. The answer to that one is simply is that level of education more necessary to her chosen field than work experience? If degrees aren't important and experience is maybe that isn't the right route for her?EDIT: Sorry but my main point was can you not trust your daughter, or can you not bring yourself to trust her?

author: GreyWoolfe
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 28, 2015, 12:57:49 am
content: Rick, I understand where you are coming from. The first time I went to college (more than 30 years ago) I had a free ride, my parents weren't well off and I had good enough grades in high school to earn a complete scholarship with some money in my pocket from the work study program that was part of my scholarship. I completely wasted it. Went from Accounting Honors program to a BS in business management. I had the equivalent of minors in accounting and economics since my school didn't offer minor degrees. I didn't have a stellar GPA by any stretch. Because my parents weren't well educated, they were unable to provide the guidance I really needed, that and a very long, losing battle with cancer my Mother fought throughout my teenage years and I basically grew up on my own. I didn't appreciate the opportunity I had. Twenty-three years later and I went back in school, completely different career, on my dime with student loans. I appreciated it much more and graduated Salutatorian, the one who beat me by the barest of margins has since become my best friend and my brother from another mother.I think you have done the right thing. She will appreciate the help she gets and the opportunities you and your wife have afforded her. Don't stray from the path you set. She will be a truly productive member of society and not one of the entitlement grievance crowd that want everything handed to them on someone else's dime. TBH, I wish my dearly departed parents could have been more like you and your wife. Don't get me wrong, I love them and respect them for what they accomplished with what they had to work with. Some better guidance and I have no doubt that my life probably would have been a lot different.

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2015, 02:50:54 am
content: Quote from: Mechanical Menace on July 27, 2015, 10:31:59 pmIt is not being able to trust myself in having done the best job I can.I know that the moment she walks out the door and closes the door behind her to departing to her college campus, I will think of something I wish I have discussed with her - had I thought of it sooner.I am keenly aware that bad influences and temptations are aplenty. While "under the parent's wings", me or my wife will always pull her back when she went astray. When she is somewhere at college a few hundred or even a few thousand miles away, the only ones who will put her well being beyond their own would be a few hundred or even a few thousand miles away.So, while I still have control, I just want to ensure I steer her just right - the best I can. I was teasing for input with the original post to see what thoughts other may have.

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2015, 03:21:37 am
content: Quote from: GreyWoolfe on July 28, 2015, 12:57:49 amYou know, GreyWoolfe, I think your parent probably were doing exactly that: Doing everything they could to make sure you have the best shot in life. In the end, it seem like they succeeded in helping you have fruitful life.As to "I think you have done the right thing." I can only hope... The world out there is getting freaky. People like Kim would not have the nerve to call a talk show in the days I was in college. They would just hunker down and work it out while deal with the shame in private.The more freaky the world gets, the less confident I am about my approach... I am no longer sure really if "hard work pays", all the while I am pushing her to work as hard as she can...

author: XynxNet
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2015, 09:47:46 pm
content: Quote from: Rick Law on July 27, 2015, 10:10:10 pmThat certainly is a valid danger.My parents solved that by supporting me monthly with the same amount of money, which poorer kids got from a government subsidary programm.It was enough to study more or less comfortable but not enough to party every weekend or waste it thoughtless...For the little extras in life, like my electronics hobby, I got myself a job at university, at my department, which also furthered my academic education.