Hearing aid for father, in-ear electronics - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / beginners

author: ocset
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 03, 2017, 08:29:21 pm
content: Hello,I wish to make a hearing aid for my old man.Can i use this WBFK receiver?http://eu.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Knowles/WBFK-30019-000/?qs=3unH%2fDqlvl9zo75uZO9NyA==

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 03, 2017, 08:54:55 pm
content: Commendable, but for many reasons you will probably fail to produce anything useful. The ear-brain combination isextremelynon-linear in just about any dimension you consider. You need the circuit to work off a single zinc-air cell. Without limiting, you stand the chance of deafening him. And then there the ear mould to be made.Fortunately in the UK there is a simple, cheap andextremelyeffective solution: get his GP to refer him to the nearest audiology department.Benefits: expert unbiassed advice. Free batteries. Free replacements when, not if, they are damaged. Ditto upgrading.

author: GreggD
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 03, 2017, 08:57:49 pm
content: OK, but I found in USA, Cosco has pair(2) of highly customer rated aids for $1800 with super liberal return period. I have decided when the time comes (soon) that is who I will use. Forget the 4,6,8 thousand brands.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 03, 2017, 09:04:18 pm
content: Quote from: GreggD on October 03, 2017, 08:57:49 pmEverybody's hearing degradation is unique. Everybody's pinna and canal is unique. What works for one person probably won't work for another.Iknowabout this topic: I wear deafaids myself, and I grew up with a very deaf father.(Sorry to hear(!) you live in the US.)

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 03, 2017, 10:10:23 pm
content: It is hard to believe this cost in 21st century USA.I would definitely take n-acetylcysteine supplements. NAC is an amino acid and is otoprotective and there is decades of science behind it. Check out the link below and you'll see what I mean.https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=acetylcysteine+hearingIt wont restore lost hearing, but it may help slow down further loss if taken every day.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 03, 2017, 10:19:54 pm
content: I live in the US and my viewing of the document appears to be blocked, could you make a screen shot of it and post it?Quote from: treez on October 03, 2017, 08:29:21 pmSo I was sort of interested in this issue after that happened and went looking for some more info on the issue.The first article I found was the following American Journal of Public Health article from around a year ago summarizing the US's very serious affordability problem..If somebody figured out how to mass produce a quality one size fits all hearing aid - that could be sold for no more than $200-300- that would help a lot of people.--------Opening the Market for Lower Cost Hearing Aids: Regulatory Change Can Improve the Health of Older AmericansJan Blustein MD, PhD, and Barbara E. Weinstein PhDAuthor affiliations, information, and correspondence detailsAccepted: March 02, 2016Published Online: May 06, 2016Hearing loss is a leading cause of disability among older people. Yet only one in seven US adults who could benefit from a hearing aid uses one. This fraction has not increased over the past 30 years, nor have hearing aid prices dropped, despite trends of steady improvements and price reductions in the consumer electronics industry.The President’s Council on Science and Technology has proposed changes in the regulation of hearing aids, including the creation of a“basic” low-cost over-the-counter category of devices.We discuss the potential to reduce disability as well as to improve public health, stakeholder responses to the president’s council’s proposal, and public health efforts to further mitigate the burden of disability stemming from age-related hearing loss.PDF:http://ajph.aphapublications.org/doi/pdf/10.2105/AJPH.2016.303176----------------Here are some more links..Clin Interv Aging. 2017; 12: 859–871.Published online 2017 May 18. doi: 10.2147/CIA.S135390PMCID: PMC5441517Applications of direct-to-consumer hearing devices for adults with hearing loss: a reviewhttps://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5441517/Pilot Electroacoustic Analyses of a Sample of Direct-to-Consumer Amplification Products.[Otol Neurotol. 2017]https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28595255An electroacoustic analysis of over-the-counter hearing aids.Callaway SL, Punch JL.Am J Audiol. 2008 Jun; 17(1):14-24.https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18519576Over-the-Counter Hearing Aids: A Lost Decade for Change.[Biomed Res Int. 2015]https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26557701Review Current trends in treating hearing loss in elderly people: a review of the technology and treatment options - a mini-review.[Gerontology. 2010https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20090297

author: Audioguru
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2017, 02:08:29 am
content: High frequency hearing lossis normalfor older people. I went to a free hearing test and it showed that my high frequency loss is perfectly normal for my age but I did not know my hearing was that bad. I got expensive hearing aids because they were programmed to sound perfect and have some very nice features that normal hearing cannot do. Cheaper Costco hearing aids are old junk without all the modern features.My hearing aids have the tiny speaker in the ear but the electronics, battery and microphones are over my ears in small housings. I was told that in-the-ear hearing aids fail soon due to moisture.Here are graphs of normal hearing loss with age. People who had continuous loud noise have more hearing loss.

author: ahbushnell
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2017, 03:51:21 am
content: I have "cheap" Costco hearing aids. I think they are great. They cost 1/4 what my Dad's cost. They work good. And Costco has great service. They clean them for free. They charge my Dad $200 to get his cleaned.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2017, 03:57:58 am
content: Why are hearing aids so expensive? $2000 or more is just nuts for what is essentially an audio amplifier.They don't have to be super-miniaturized, really. just workwell.

author: ocset
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2017, 04:55:44 am
content: QuoteThanks, my thoughts exactly....surely there is an offthe shelf hearing aid i can buy for a reasonable price....or even off the shelf integrated amplifiers etc that i can just solder together?...even if it has a tuning screw to tune the frequency?

author: ocset
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2017, 04:58:34 am
content: Quote...well, i think USA is a great country, with great people....i am sorry have lived in the UK as it falls further toward the third world...here is my reason..https://massey276.wixsite.com/ukelectronicsThe datasheet is here , as you said you didnt have access?

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2017, 07:32:26 am
content: Quote from: Audioguru on October 04, 2017, 02:08:29 amThat is the least of the non-linear effects. Consider that, even with "perfect" hearing, the frequency response curve significantly depends on the amplitude.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2017, 07:39:05 am
content: Quote from: cdev on October 04, 2017, 03:57:58 amBut "works well" depends on each individual. Each individual has to have each ear individually tested in a quiet room using specialist equipment. The testing takes at least half an hour, often longer.It is easy to get invalid test results, and the assessor has to be trained in how to avoid problems and interpret the results.Then the hearing aids have to be chosen (how?).Earmoulds have to be taken and acrylic/silicone inserts manufactured.Finally the hearing aids have to be fitted and tuned to the ear canal's shape, using equipment specific to the hearing aid. That also takes half an hour.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2017, 07:40:14 am
content: Quote from: treez on October 04, 2017, 04:55:44 amNo. Full stop.See my previous posting.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2017, 07:42:14 am
content: Quote from: treez on October 04, 2017, 04:58:34 amThat is perilously close to politics.I didn't need to read the datasheets, for the reasons I have given in previous posts.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2017, 01:38:29 pm
content: I'm glad I live in the US and its a great country and we have largely good people.If I didn't care I wouldn't complain. Sorry to have brought up politics.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2017, 02:46:39 pm
content: Audioguru,"Presbyacusis" - age related hearing loss,is"normal" but a common cause of it is increased oxidative stress as we age. So, some of the changes that cause hearing loss can be reduced or perhaps even prevented it seems by taking an amino acid- n-acetylcysteine (NAC) which is the precursor of an important chemical in our bodies, glutathione, and to a lesser degree by many antioxidants and interventions that lowerhomocysteine. Vitamin C is an example of a vitamin that is likely to help. Glycine, another amino acid, may also help in some people. (taken with NAC, the two together make gluathione)Seehttp://ajcn.nutrition.org/search?submit=yes&y=14&fulltext=acetylcysteine+hearingButhealthypeople of any age shouldn't overdo it because, inflammation has a vital role in some kinds of body signalling.. For a reason..For example, the inflammation that heavy exercise causes is what causes muscles to develop. So, somebody who was working out daily might not get the muscle gain they wanted if they were taking very large quantities of NAC because it would prevent some of the inflammation that in that particular setting, we needed, as it tells our bodies to make THOSE muscles grow. But the amounts that would have that effect (many grams a day) are much higher than the amount an older person might take (just a few 600-800 mg doses a day) to help prevent hearing loss.Quote from: Audioguru on October 04, 2017, 02:08:29 am

author: Dataforensics
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 04, 2017, 03:28:45 pm
content: Regarding getting a hearing aid via NHS referral.I did get a rather nice one that boosts the higher frequencies and masks my tinnitus as a result.Problem was that from referral to getting the device took four years all told, mainly because they tried a bus load of different medications before agreeing to the hearing aid.I would have bought one privately if I had known it to be effective, but only found out after it was fitted.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2017, 04:24:14 pm
content: Quote from: Dataforensics on October 04, 2017, 03:28:45 pmKnowingit to be effective is a key difficulty; the private sector's motivation is to make money; improving your health is a side effect. If you choose to go private, there is no guarantee that you will get anything better - my father tried and failed, and thereafter stuck with the NHS. Plus on the NHS you get free replacements when (not if) they fail, and only pay a nominal sum of you lose/damage one through carelessness. That's significant for a £2k-£10k investment!Glad you have something, and it is difficult to say (without 20:20 hindsight) that the path was wrong.

author: Audioguru
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2017, 05:49:22 pm
content: Quote from: treez on October 04, 2017, 04:55:44 amMy hearing aids have complex equalization that is tuned to perfectly match my high frequencies hearing loss. They play all sound frequencies, not just one frequency. They also have a compressor so that loud sounds are not louder and are not distorted. They also have front and back and left and right microphones to direct hearing to where the sounds come from. They also have a flat "music" mode, a bandpass "voice" mode, a "very sensitive" mode, a "muted" mode (mutes motorcycles or a dog barking) and an "automatic" mode that slowly cuts background noises if there is nobody talking nearby. The hearing aids are synchronized and programmed with Bluetooth. They use a digital feedback elimination circuit.The speakers are very tiny but maybe earbuds can be used instead. The battery is tiny and lasts for 2 weeks but you can carry a huge heavy battery and replace it every day if you want to save some money (spend it on batteries instead). You can also carry a DIY amplifier in a lunchbox if you want.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2017, 06:13:49 pm
content: The dynamics of scale would definitely apply to something that effects two thirds of all Americans. DSP technology is not rocket science.Some of the things you said - can you explain more?front and rear microphones?Are you talking about a hearing aid you bought, or one you sell/fit? Could you provide a bit more info?Some "direct to consumer" hearing aids sold in the US are listed here..https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4755807/table/T1/What do you think about their critiques?I think they are trying to say that US consumers should be able to get a wider choice given the falling prices of electronics generally.As far as tuning, some of that could likely be performed by a "wizard" (part of the software) Some but perhaps not all. Since some hearing loss is likely caused by Rx drugs, a patients doctor should be in the loop - maybe a prescription some older person is taking might be aggravating their hearing loss?Its complicated. To be honest, I think we need a public health care system in the US. Because hearing loss is a change that accelerates cognitive decline because of neural plasticity.Given its importance to an older person being able to live independently, its very important to not drop the ball on hearing aid affordability when it comes to our older people.Quote from: Audioguru on October 04, 2017, 05:49:22 pm

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2017, 06:39:10 pm
content: (presbyacusis) effects nearly everybody later in life to some degree.Do you remember the names of the drugs they gave you and what they were for? Were they for tinnitus?Quote from: Dataforensics on October 04, 2017, 03:28:45 pm

author: GreggD
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2017, 06:50:09 pm
content: They also have magnetic receiver so that when a phone is placed to your ear they can turn off the microphone(s) receive magnetic (audio) and also send it to the other hearing aid so you hear it in both ears.This also can receive audio from magnetic induction loops in say church other public places.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2017, 07:15:03 pm
content: Quote from: cdev on October 04, 2017, 06:13:49 pmCorrect; you already have economies of scale, albeit not as much economy as you would like.QuoteWrong in this instance;the ear-brain combination is more complex than you image (consider that people have been refiningsimple regularaudio compression algorithm for a quarter of a century)it must have frequency-dependent compression to avoid further damage to the cochleait isn't triviallinearDSP, but highly configurable non-linear DSPit must run on 1.25V from a tiny zinc air battery (typically A13), the smaller the betterthe battery should last for at least a weekQuoteThat's the "insert magic here" form of non-specification.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2017, 10:14:20 pm
content: It seems to me that the combination of small size, sophisticated DSP and low power some of the cutting edge could be jettisoned to allow people to have a cheap high functioning hearing aid for less.Most old people aren't trying to win beauty contests here. They don't need their hearing aids to be invisible, or even run off of hearing aid batteries (they could be rechargeable like my electric toothbrush is, which has used the same induction charged rechargeable handset and has been used at least twice a day, sometimes more,for at least five or six years)They just need to work, and be cheap to use, power and fix..Quote from: tggzzz on October 04, 2017, 07:15:03 pm

author: Audioguru
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2017, 10:33:55 pm
content: Quote from: cdev on October 04, 2017, 06:13:49 pm

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2017, 11:23:34 pm
content: Despite great advances in miniaturization and cost reduction, a great many Americans still can't afford them.

author: b_force
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2017, 11:29:30 pm
content: Quote from: GreggD on October 03, 2017, 08:57:49 pmA friend of mine works for a company that produces hearing aid transceivers (oddly enough they just call them receivers).He is actually R&D engineer there.Guess what the cost when they leave the factory including profit..............................?1 USD dollaryesONE!!!!!And than you have actually a very decent model.He said that 2-3 bucks is absolute tops.So a middle man in between is filling his pockets very well.I have been working as an acoustic engineer pretty much my whole career, and I can also tell that everything more than $100-200 is absolute nuts.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2017, 11:48:40 pm
content: A while back there was a discussion about contests..This would be a good project for a design contest..people could design a small but not submicroscopic DSP hearing aid which cost under some arbitrary sum, say $75-100.Quote from: treez on October 04, 2017, 04:55:44 am

author: b_force
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2017, 11:56:55 pm
content: Quote from: cdev on October 04, 2017, 11:48:40 pmThe problem are the transducers/drivers.This is a very special kind, although, nowadays sometimes even used in headphones.The problem is that it really depends what kind of hearing loss you have.In general, a DSP would suck out WAAY to much energy.In fact, I can remember very well my friend being all frustrated to actually have to use mechanical lowpass/highpass and noth filters (RF people know what I mean), because there is simply no space for even a tiny opamp and a bunch of passives.Although the market has changed quite significant the last few years in audio, so it could be that nowadays they have other solutions.I know this is an electronics forum, and it's probably not the best place to say (hides..), but you simply can't solve all acoustic issues with electronics and DSP's.(yes you can a lot)

author: Dataforensics
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 05, 2017, 08:03:06 am
content: Quote from: cdev on October 04, 2017, 06:39:10 pm

author: Dataforensics
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 05, 2017, 08:09:12 am
content: Sorry deleted too many quote controls, should have looked like.Quote from: cdev on October 04, 2017, 06:39:10 pmI can remember pregabalin, amitriptylene, and believe it or not some anti psychotics. They were all used at much lower than normal doses for their side affects rather than main conditions. None were specific for tinnitus, just known to help in some people. None of them helped with my tinnitus.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 05, 2017, 10:19:41 am
content: Quote from: cdev on October 04, 2017, 10:14:20 pmSuch things are already available; over here there are adverts in newspapers that cater to C2/D/E demographics etc.They very definitely aren't "high functioning".Even if youredeveloped such a device, there are many other issues such as ear moulds, ensuring ear-safety, EMI immunity.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 05, 2017, 10:21:01 am
content: Quote from: Dataforensics on October 05, 2017, 08:09:12 amHints: use the preview button, and after posting use the modify button.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 05, 2017, 10:27:52 am
content: Quote from: b_force on October 04, 2017, 11:29:30 pmA very plausible profit margin, from the little information I have been able to glean.But before you think middle men are filling their pockets:consider that most retail outfits start at a 100% markup, unless the money flow is predictable and assured (e.g. food)go and have a look at a retail hearimg aid shop, and guess how many sales will be made per day. Then divide the fixed overheads and salaries by the number of sales, and you will get a not inconsiderable sumQuoteDon't confuse engineering expertise with commercial expertise; they aren't fungible. sounds like a good interview question!

author: b_force
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 05, 2017, 02:17:24 pm
content: I probably had to be a bit more clear. I am in between engineering and marketing the last few years. So I do have a very good sence about these things.I also do follow your arguments, but I always find some of them a bad excuse. The fact that your company has to be that expensive is not the customers business. It means you're bad in running a business. Normally that's not an issue because there are enough competitors who make sure there is enough choice.In this case I know that in some fields (like hearing aids) prices are being kept high. Years ago I even went to a few lectures about exactly this issue.Because let's be honest, the cost of running a shop for these kind of things are not much higher than any other shop. If you can't earn enough with only haring aids, simply sell other stuff as well or try to come up with a format that makes it cheaper (like an online store or available on amazon or something)

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 05, 2017, 03:21:53 pm
content: Quote from: b_force on October 05, 2017, 02:17:24 pmIt would be helpful if you both expressed yourself and also thought more clearly.When you say "your company has to be that expensive", exactly which company are you referring to? I have never worked in any part of the audiology or retail fields."...simply sell other stuff..." and "...online store..." completely ignores/misunderstands the arguments that you state you follow. In particular:dedicated quiet rooms are expensiveexpensive single-purpose equipmentespecially trained staff, with appropriate qualificationsand, most blatantly, exactly how do you propose that an "online store" tests someone's ears and makes an earmould of their ear canal?Now the market may be dysfunctional wherever you live (you don't display a country flag), but that doesn't mean it is dysfunctional everywhere.N.B. if you would satisfied by a generic amplifier, simply buy one of those already on the market for a few 10s of £/$. Many deaf people won't be satisfied by that - just as many people aren't satisfied with supermarket eyeglasses.

author: b_force
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 05, 2017, 03:38:34 pm
content: Your is more a general term. So your as in 'a company' or 'people' (something)Maybe it's a matter of speech that some languages/people/cultures are not used to.Sorry for the confusion.I am also talking generally, so to speak.So read my whole post as; 'there are ways to make it happen and it's not an excuse'.Therefore don't take my suggestions to literal.To give a similar example.In a lot of countries you can buy glasses for cheap online.So what people do is go to the optometrist ones in a while and get their eyes checked.In many cases that's even free or will cost you somewhere between 20-50 bucks.Ones you have your prescription, you can buy your glasses online (this is what I meant with 'Amazon').You can use exactly the same idea for hearing aids.Btw, you really don't need 'very special dedicated' rooms anymore to check someones hearing.Same goes for the equipment.I bet some companies still do, but that's really old fashioned.I am member of the AES and I have seen proposals to do this even on a way so people can do a decent test at home.Not saying it's there yet, but it gives a good picture what the possibilities are.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 05, 2017, 04:04:14 pm
content: I think that perhaps what tggzzz and I both are concerned about (and with good reason) are declines in assistance to poor people to the lowest common denominator that is viewed as acceptable by society. People don't realize this but all around the world 'regulation' is now only allowed to go downward. That is supposed to create cheap market based solutions, lowering prices to the bone, but instead, well connected entities are trying to hold back competition.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 05, 2017, 05:44:04 pm
content: Quote from: b_force on October 05, 2017, 03:38:34 pmI take it you reside some place where English isn't the first language. "Your" is a possessive, i.e.yourj??,j??/determinerpossesive pronoun: your; possesive pronoun: Your; determiner: Your1. belonging to or associated with the person or people that the speaker is addressing."what is your name?"2. belonging to or associated with any person in general."the sight is enough to break your heart"If you want to mean an anonyomous or undefined entity, "a" is the correct form. For a specific entity, use "the".QuoteIndeed, but to get to that point you need specialists with special knowledge and special equipment - andthat'sthe expense.I'd like to see youreliablycreate moulds of your own ears.QuoteI don't know what is inside/outside of your definition of "very"; that wasn't a term I used.But you appear to be arguing that hearing could be tested in general shop with general noise levels and distractions. Please give an indication of how that could be done - because the shops I go into aren't like that.QuoteAES?Proposals are 10-a-penny, frequently they are little more than someone floating an idea. I can believe itmightbe done in some homes, but how is the homeowner's equipment going to be calibrated? Who will assess they are using the equipment correctly, so they have a reliable result?

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 05, 2017, 05:56:34 pm
content: It could be done by mail, somebody receives the package with special calibrated headphones and tiny touchscreen testing computer, performs the test, goes through a well defined process, and at the end it uploads the results to the server. Then they get the hearing aid in the mail, try them on while the test is being run, and through this process the response is fine tuned automatically, when its done they put the headphone computer auditory testing device in its postage paid envelope and send it back.This way older, non computer literate people can have the benefit of a long, very precise fine tuned process that likely is much more complete than a ten or twenty minute test in a office park or mall.Also,whenever there is any change whatsoever in their hearing they just go to a web page and click a box and the next day the tester arrives again to help their doctor figure out if some new threat to their hearing needs to be worried about.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 05, 2017, 06:11:54 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on October 05, 2017, 05:44:04 pmIt likely could be done remotely.I can think of multiple ways it could be done.A good case can be made that solutions to all these problems are within grasp, and that there is no need to have skilled workers spending their valuable time on processes that can be automated to everybody's benefit.What could be better than testing hearing aids and hearing in the patients own home interactively, at their own schedule?A dedicated, tablet based interactive device with calibrated headphones, etc. can come to them by overnight delivery and be returned when the process is done.If it makes it easier for the millions of people who can't currently afford a hearing aid to get one, why not?At home is the best way to do it, that seems obvious to me. Many older people are not so mobile, many live in rural areas or never or no longer drive.Quote

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 05, 2017, 07:30:27 pm
content: Nice concepts and good aspirations, cdev, but that's all they are. Unfortunately the devil is in the details.Do you have any experience getting people to do something novel that they don't understand?Do you have any experience observing and working with the elderly?Have you ever had an ear mould made? How could you ensure it was done adequately while avoiding all possibility of damaging the eardrum?And there are many many more such questions, since there are many ways the process could go badly wrong, unfortunately.The hearing aid issue is merely one symptom of the uncaring system in the USA. If the system was fixed, then health insurance would be cheaper (I pay ~1/3 the US rate) and many other problems would disappear.

author: b_force
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2017, 01:28:47 am
content: http://www.aes.org/About the mould, I personally think that part is a bit overlooked, it's mostly just for comfort.Btw, you can make these moulds yourself, pretty cheap and easy.It's even being done for hearing protection plugs/buds.I also really don't see why you need such a super fancy acoustic threaded room.The background noise simply needs to be low enough, the numbers are a bit rusty, but out of my head that should be something like 24-40dB(a) or thereabouts.This can be very easily done in a standard room with a proper headphone.Also getting 'calibrated' headphones with ±1dB isn't that difficult anymore.In fact, it would be better not to calibrate the headphone, but use a compensation on the source.(technically speaking that's not calibrating, but I know most people use it that way)Bit again, we are nit picking details, those can easily be overcome, it's about the general concept.I have discussed this with quite some engineers in the field (went to a bunch of lectures about this subject).Although that was probably 7-8 years back or so, but NONE of them (even people that DO have marketing skills) understand why they need to cost around $800-1500.The only thing I remember is that the market is kind of a locked environment.So it's very hard to get in as an outsider.@cdevI really love your ideas.Doesn't even need to be really at home, but portable is also fine.That way someone can go to their homes or like elderly homes and do it on the spot.Ones again, there is no rocket science in measuring it.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2017, 01:38:05 am
content: My friend the former drug company CEO gave me this example around twelve years ago.According to her a five minute dipstick medical test for a crippling disease thats making inroads in the US - that costs less than $1 in Mexico might cost $700 in the US.The actual tests might originate from the same factory, be sold and interpreted by two subsidiaries of / by the same company! And in fact BE the exact same test.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2017, 08:13:34 am
content: Quote from: b_force on October 06, 2017, 01:28:47 amSo an engineering society rather than medical or human factors or business. I have no concept of its relationship with "audiophools", but I bet most of its members have good hearing and are therefore not aware of the realities of hearing deficiencies and what's necessary to correct them.QuoteFalse, pure and simple. It is a critical part of the deafaid and significantly affects its performance.QuoteYoumight be able to, but I presume that is an unproven assertion. Getting randomers off the street toreliablyinject mould material into their own ear canal and then remove it is a rather different proposition.QuotePlease stop inventing strawman arguments, it doesn't reflect well on the rest of your assertions. You are the only one inventing the concept of a "super duper" room.QuoteCorrect. The practical issue in a retail context is that such a room would have to be dedicated to this - so the retail "lost opportunity" cost is expensive.QuoteThey only see part of the issues; medical and human factors issues are equally (if not more) important.QuoteSo fix the market! Trying to use technology to fix non-technical problems usually fails.QuoteYou overestimate the competence of average members of the public doing strange and novel activities.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2017, 08:17:59 am
content: Quote from: cdev on October 06, 2017, 01:38:05 amThere are many many such disreputable examples in the USA, and in some cases they manage to export their practices to elsewhere.The US healthcare system and marketplace is either absent or broken, but this isn't the right forum for such a discussion.However, expecting technology to fix a broken market is usually doomed to failure.

author: b_force
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2017, 01:17:09 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on October 06, 2017, 08:13:34 amI am sorry, but calling members of the AES just some "audiophools" with only engineering skills and having no knowledge in the medical world, clearly shows you have very little knowledge about this subject.It's even a pretty disrespectful statement.Togheter with the ASA they are equivlent to the IEEE. All platforms were researchers share their papers, knowledges and give lectures.And yes that's about medical stuff as well.In fact, hearing loss is one of the top discussions in the field.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2017, 03:00:44 pm
content: Quote from: b_force on October 06, 2017, 01:17:09 pmWhich part of "I have no concept of its relationship with "audiophools"" do you not understand? It seems English is not your first language. Maybe that is the reason foryet anotherstrawman argument.I also notice you have chosen not to address the other, principally non-technical, points.

author: b_force
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2017, 03:16:16 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on October 06, 2017, 03:00:44 pm" but I bet most of its members have good hearing and are therefore not aware of the realities of hearing deficiencies and what's necessary to correct them."This part, says enough.But to be honest, even the fact that someone doesn't know the AES.That's like talking about rockets but not knowing NASA.And the reason why I am not going into the rest of the arguments is simply because I don't feel this is going to be a constructive discussion at all.More like some people want to win a discussion. Which I find a waste of my energy and time.I am simply telling things that thousands of engineers and other people in the field have experience with.I am even trying to help people with all this information and were to find more about the subject.But if that's not being taken serious, what is even the discussion worth?But maybe I am simply misreading things.I also really don't see why it's necessary to think if somebody is a native speaker or not, sounds rather arrogant to me actually.It's not important for a discussion, if things are unclear, just clarify them.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2017, 10:09:20 pm
content: The Audio Engineering Society are the global professional organization of audio engineers, people who work with sound and electronics.They have been around for a looong time..

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2017, 12:01:02 pm
content: ...aaaand you’ve scared off the OP.

author: Assafl
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2017, 12:35:32 pm
content: Quote from: b_force on October 04, 2017, 11:29:30 pmWhere does that come from??? Sure - any of the "high end" receivers are 10-20$ (but the IEM makers put 6 of them in an ear) - but the really high level low distortion balanced armature receivers are about 50-70$ each. You need both high volume and low distortion.Add their low distortion low power (no high voltage bias available) microphones for a low distortion system and you are way over 100$ per ear before the actual DSP, energy management and amplification happen.While nowhere near the $5-10k price charged by Siemens or Bernafone or Widex - but also the OP does not have to (by law) verify his in ear response against a Bruel and Kjaer dummy, nor offer a programming system, or a catalog of spare parts and support.If I were the OP and really up to it - I'd build a big "around the neck" device. Build the parametric filters into it (DSP), a limiter (so as not to hurt the hearing) - maybe even some Dolby type compression to allow limiting but not annoying clipping.If it works - I'd then try to miniaturize it.Last point if they are to buy a device, I'd scour the hearing loss forums for manufacturers that are lax in their programmer cable and software - so that if the audiologists don't do a stellar job - one could tailor the settings to their preference.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2017, 01:57:55 pm
content: Quote from: Assafl on October 07, 2017, 12:35:32 pmSensible question.QuoteDepending on the jurisdiction, hearing aids may or may not be classed as medical devices. That's perfectly reasonable, since they could easily permanently damage someone's hearing. Once you get into that territory, it becomes very wise to have insurance, lawyers, and design manufacturing and customisations procedures that will stand up in court against hostile questioning.

author: Assafl
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2017, 03:05:40 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on October 07, 2017, 01:57:55 pmI am sure the audiologist may also be responsible for setting the amplification too high...There are a lot of malpractice insurance fees in the 1000's of dollars price tag. It wouldn't surprise me if half....

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2017, 08:35:43 pm
content: Best to avoid hearing aids then.A customizable, compact high quality audio amplifier for headphones..with all sorts of DSP functions, and built in microphones, could tap into a big underserved market.