Workbench electrical safety advice - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: l9o
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: December 16, 2022, 03:44:51 pm
content: I'm currently setting up a workshop with a workbench for developing, debugging and reverse engineering electronics. Pretty standard stuff: an oscilloscope, power supply, function generator, etc.I have an electrician redoing my basement electrical, so this feels like a good time to think about safety of my workshop.What is some advice you would give to someone who is setting up a bench from scratch? Do I need GFCI outlets? An AFCI breaker? Something I should do to ground my workbench? Anything else?Currently I have planned:1. A separate 20A breaker for the workshop area, shared between lights and all the outlets in the room2. On top of the workbench, 4 outlets: so I can plug in DUTs and other temporary devices like soldering iron. I might add a wall switch for these 4 outlets, just for peace of mind.3. On the bottom of the workbench, 2 outlets: so I can leave a few instrumentation devices plugged in all the time (mostly power supply and oscilloscope)4. On another corner of the workshop I also have outlets for computer, etc - though I don't expect those to be using DUTs all that oftenFor context, I'm a Software Engineer who likes to play with electronics and radio/SDR, so mostly low voltage stuff. I would imagine I want to protect myself and my gear from ground loops, issues with scope grounding and accidental fuck ups I might do with the DUTs like shorts.If there are any EEVBlog videos or other material that you find useful, feel free to send my way - I tried searching for this but mostly just found material about electrical safety in general, not a whole lot of advice for an electronics lab. Would be glad to get recommendations of any products as well.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2022, 04:02:16 pm
content: Quotemight want to consider putting the lights on a different circuit to your bench supply,that way when something goes bang your not plunged into darkness.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2022, 04:45:31 pm
content: Quote from: l9o on December 16, 2022, 03:44:51 pmThere are outlets which combine both AFCI and GFCI features. I would use them...

author: Brianf
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2022, 04:55:32 pm
content: You don't have enough outlets. My workshop (well the one I'm in now) has 16 of them easily accessible for occasional kit, soldering irons, and similar. Then there's the two 9-way strips behind the test equipment shelf. There are then another 12 under the PC bench for PC stuff.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2022, 04:57:36 pm
content: I would mount a long multi-outlet strip to the bench or to the wall behind the bench. You can't have too many outlets. I might put one down low and one at the table top.You really can't have too many outlets. Most strips have the outlets so close together that a wall-wart uses up 2 or 3 spaces so right away you have less outlets than you bought. I get around the problem with short extension cords:https://www.amazon.com/dp/B09Y1SXW3J

author: l9o
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: December 16, 2022, 05:28:12 pm
content: Quote from: Brianf on December 16, 2022, 04:55:32 pmOh yeah, I was planning on just using strips to complement those. Is that a bad idea?

author: AVGresponding
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2022, 05:33:05 pm
content: Quote from: l9o on December 16, 2022, 03:44:51 pmGet a good sized anti-static mat. I would not recommend grounding the bench, as there's a fair chance of you being the path to earth between the DUT and bench at some point. I would not use a metal workbench at all, for this reason. Wood is much better, and more pleasant to the touch too.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2022, 06:25:29 pm
content: Quote from: l9o on December 16, 2022, 05:28:12 pmYes, power strips are always inferior to real outlets. This is exactly the moment to equip yourself with enough outlets so you don’t have to mess with power strips.

author: nightfire
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 17, 2022, 12:40:01 am
content: Some RCD in front of your outlets are mandatory- in my case I put a PRCD in front of a 19" server rack power outlet strip and plugged that into my wall outlet that has no RCD because my apartment is older than RCDs becoming mandatory for every outlet in the house.Depnding on the code in your area, solutions (GFCI etc.) will probably vary.I also would use whether some isolating wood bench, or put grounding on metal parts.Also: provisions for connecting to antistatic measurements like wrist strap and central connecting point for that.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 17, 2022, 12:48:54 am
content: Quote from: tooki on December 16, 2022, 06:25:29 pmThat is impossible. You need about 20 outlets per meter of bench space. Good quality power strips (fixed to the underside of the desk for example) will do that. Regular outlets not so much; they physically won't fit and you need excessive daisy-chaining.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 17, 2022, 01:08:19 am
content: In the uk at least,the advantage of using proper sockets instead of power strips is power bars often have a fuse fitted,so thats a fuse in the plug powering the power bar ,a fuse in the power bar and another on the plug feeding the bit of kit,now which ones blown?

author: EPAIII
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 17, 2022, 08:28:36 am
content: I will add to the grounded workbench idea. In over 45 years of work in electronics and at least 15 additional ones where it has been a hobby, I have only been shocked twice. The second and worse time was about 40,000 Volts DC that passed through a probe I was holding (not a HV probe), through my hand, out my foot, through my shoe, and into the grounded, metal bench I was working at.My present electronic benches are wood and wood top with a metal frame below. Neither one is grounded.As for anti-static mats, I have worked with and without them. I saw ZERO difference. Perhaps if you find that static discharge is a problem for you, then get one. But I see no reason otherwise. Not having a carpet on the floor is probably a better anti-static protection than those mats ever will be.Quote from: tooki on December 16, 2022, 06:25:29 pm

author: EPAIII
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 17, 2022, 08:39:07 am
content: If you buy your power strips at WalMart, yes they well be inferior.Every professional shop I have built has been equiped with the Wiremold, Plugmold strips. I also specified them for professional rack installations. They are better than all but the best, high end, most expensive outlets. I never had a single problem with them. I always got the ones with an outlet every six inches. If you don't specify that, the electrician will go cheap with the ones with them only every ten or twelve inches. Then they curse like hell when you make them take them back out and install the right ones.Quote from: tooki on December 16, 2022, 06:25:29 pm

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 17, 2022, 11:07:21 am
content: Quote from: themadhippy on December 17, 2022, 01:08:19 amIs that actually useful? IMHO that is more like a UK 'thing'. Having fuses everywhere means introducing places where you can have contact problems and increased costs. All AC powered equipment has fuses inside it already. In the past 20 years I only tripped a breaker once and that way because a big ass power supply wasn't completely set to 230VAC (it had another hidden voltage selection strap). The fuse was sized for 110V operation so it had a higher rating than the mains breaker.

author: Sherlock Holmes
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 17, 2022, 11:24:43 am
content: Quote from: l9o on December 16, 2022, 03:44:51 pmShame you can't get switched power outlets in US. In UK one can cut power just by switching the outlet off, here in US you must pull it out, very kludgy.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 17, 2022, 01:39:26 pm
content: Quote from: EPAIII on December 17, 2022, 08:39:07 amThose are a great solution, and as hard-wired items, fall under the “real outlets” I meant.But yeah, when someone says “power strip”, they generally mean the wal-mart kind…

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 17, 2022, 01:43:25 pm
content: Quote from: Sherlock Holmes on December 17, 2022, 11:24:43 amhttps://www.lowes.com/pd/Legrand-White-15-Amp-Duplex-Tamper-Resistant-Switch-Outlet-Residential-Switch-Outlet/3586610A shame indeed.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 17, 2022, 01:44:30 pm
content: Quote from: EPAIII on December 17, 2022, 08:28:36 amThe big problem with the “I’ve never had ESD damage before” is that you don’t actuallyknowthat; a lot of ESD damage is not such that it causes immediate, complete failure, and the discharges sufficient to damage sensitive electronics are far smaller than anything we can see or feel. Often, a discharge just degrades a part, such that it no longer performs to spec, or damages it in a way that it fails down the line (and then we attribute the failure to random failure or age, and not the causative ESD event).ESD mats are cheap, and a great way to protect the workbench anyway, so IMHO there’s no excuse tonothave one.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 17, 2022, 02:08:31 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on December 17, 2022, 12:48:54 amOh?Why can’t you have an electrician install as many as you need?Quote from: nctnico on December 17, 2022, 12:48:54 amSays who?Quote from: nctnico on December 17, 2022, 12:48:54 amSure, but why do that when you could have real, hard-wired outlets?Quote from: nctnico on December 17, 2022, 12:48:54 amA 10-gang US electrical box is about 22” (around 60cm) wide, and that would fit 20 outlets.Quote from: nctnico on December 17, 2022, 12:48:54 amAmerican outlets are designed for daisy-chaining, and hard-wired daisy chains are certainly preferable to plugged ones.

author: Brianf
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 17, 2022, 02:42:42 pm
content: I use power strips designed for use in server racks.

author: AndyBeez
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 17, 2022, 03:01:29 pm
content: What about ventillation? Are you going to have an extractor fan with conduit to pull the solder fumes etc out of your man cave?

author: aduinstat
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 17, 2022, 03:05:03 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on December 17, 2022, 01:44:30 pmIhavehad ESD damage before, and let me tell you, it is a wonderful feeling when your devices suddenly start working after the ESD mat is installed. I also recommend an ESD chair (even if it is not grounded), because chairs are probably the number 1 source of ESD, and an ESD chair cannot build a charge.BTW, the reset pin on Atmel microcontrollers do not have ESD protection and are easy to blow.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 17, 2022, 06:12:52 pm
content: Quote from: aduinstat on December 17, 2022, 03:05:03 pmI agree about getting an anti-static mat. And if you work on customer products, get a wrist strap as well. I won't touch anything that goes out to a customer without wearing an anti-static wrist strap (and work on an anti-static mat). I learned about damage due to static discharge the hard way a couple of decades ago. I have a couple of these from a reputable brand:

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 17, 2022, 06:23:06 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on December 17, 2022, 02:08:31 pm20 outlets in 60cm would mean they are 3cm apart. Then you won't be able to fit a wall-wart in. And daisy chaining outlets isn't a very good idea because you create a connection at every point (worse when the outlets have push-in contacts). What I have done in my lab is to have use a star like distribution. There are two mains busses (on seperate circuits) running under my bench which feed a bunch of outlets (as branches from the bus). Those busses are connected using twist-on wire connectors instead of spring loaded connectors for improved reliability under high loads. From those outlets, a whole bunch of power strips are supplied (a total of 110 outlets for about 6 meters of bench / desk). That gives the least number of connections between the grid connection and outlets.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 17, 2022, 08:33:18 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on December 17, 2022, 06:23:06 pmThis is how nearly every lighting and socket circuit throughout the world is wired. Hell, this is how every street light and house is wired under or over the road. You're overthinking things.

author: AVGresponding
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 17, 2022, 08:51:17 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on December 17, 2022, 08:33:18 pmI think he means you're adding pluggable connections rather than fixed wiring connections. They have a slightly higher contact resistance, and under certain conditions are more prone to unwanted behaviours such as arcing.Ideally you shouldn't have more than one pluggable connection in series (no I don't stick to this either but it's a calculated risk).

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 17, 2022, 09:49:05 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on December 17, 2022, 08:33:18 pmYou are misunderstanding. Just look at a typical outlet: you can daisy chain these but the connection isn't ideal. It is more for convenience to hook up 2 to 3 outlets from the same 'feed' but not more. If you look at proper house wiring, you'll see that the wires are connected as a bus with the wires to a socket being spliced off instead of using the socket to splice the wires. At least that is how my house is wired...

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 17, 2022, 10:00:25 pm
content: Quotethats wot you get for using mickey mouse outlets,the far superior britsh socket outlet is designed to easily accept 2 cables,even 3 and at a push 4.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 17, 2022, 10:01:44 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on December 17, 2022, 09:49:05 pm.. either way you have just as many joints. Actually, more your way. If your sockets don't have reliable terminations, they're not fit for use whether they're daisy chained or not.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 17, 2022, 10:32:14 pm
content: The point is that you can make a much more reliable splice compared to clamping wires under a screw or (worse) a spring loaded contact. Run a washing machine from splices that use a spring loaded connector for a couple of years and you'll find out why having good solid splices in which the wires are twisted together tightly, matter. One of my close family members has worked as an electrician all his life and for high power loads, he always used the twist-on connectors instead of the spring loaded connectors. Even the expensive ones are prone to failing.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 17, 2022, 11:13:33 pm
content: Quotewire nuts over wagos? sorry but totally disagree

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 18, 2022, 12:10:52 am
content: Quote from: themadhippy on December 17, 2022, 11:13:33 pmYes. You may disagree but I have had the Wagos (original ones) fail myself as well for the wiring that goes to our washing machine. It is not just hearsay. Ofcourse you'd need to use proper / good quality wire nuts. I only use the ones from Conex and make sure to twist the wires properly. BTW, I have had some formal training for doing work on mains as part of my EE studies so I do know my way around with mains wiring.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 18, 2022, 01:37:02 am
content: must admit when wagos first appeared i was sceptical and stuck with more traditional methods,however over the years my opinion has swung the full 180 and have used a fair few without any problems.Wire nuts,thankfully ,aren't that common over here, and were,maybe still are, not permitted under our regs for fixed wiring, any time ive come across them there's either been exposed copper sticking out the bottom or they fall off as soon as you look at them.The other issue with wire nuts is you need to factor in a suitable enclosure for them with suitable strain relief for the cables,something wagos thought about with there boxes.

author: Black Phoenix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 18, 2022, 04:47:40 am
content: Regarding this:https://youtu.be/wsJONukJlLI

author: Messtechniker
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 18, 2022, 10:49:54 am
content: One thing I find useful when powering up possibly faulty equipment is a remotely controlled power outlet. Like this one, for example:https://www.brennenstuhl.com/de-DE/produkte/funksteckdosen/funkschalt-set-rcs-1000-n-comfort-1-handsender-2-schaltempfanger-1000w.It allows you to switch the power off faster while maintaining focus on the equipment should anything go wrong.

author: AVGresponding
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 18, 2022, 11:12:15 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on December 18, 2022, 12:10:52 amI work as a project (installation) sparks for a UK metropolitan council. We do not use wire nuts, period. I would never use a Wago to make a final connection, and I wouldn't let anyone else do so on one of my sites either. The Clerk of Works would only tell you to re-do it anyway.For a washing machine, if it had a plug-top we'd make a radial off the socket ring with a switched fuse spur, down to a single unswitched socket for it. If it had a wire ended flex, we'd do the same except use a flex outlet plate instead of a single unswitched socket. No Wagos would get anywhere near it.We only use Wagos on a new installation if we need to common a lot of wires together, for instance in a big multi-gang light switch, you might have 10+ earths. Putting all those together in a screw terminal is a very bad idea; in order to get it tight enough to stop any from pulling out in a tug test, you run a serious risk of shearing through the conductors under the screw end itself. You can mitigate this by twisting earths together but I hate this practice as it can make alterations a ball-ache (we get to do a lot of alterations, as the designers and clients are rubbish at making their minds up).

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 18, 2022, 02:01:25 pm
content: QuoteNot even on a light fitting,thats a final connection after all.Quoteagree about the ball ache,and not just for alterations, its a pita when testings,however when i done my apprenticeship back when the ink was still wet on the 15th this was the method taught to us ,the thinking behind it was ,not to save earth sleeving,but if the connection became loose you'd still be maintaining earth continuity in the circuit

author: AVGresponding
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 18, 2022, 04:17:30 pm
content: Quote from: themadhippy on December 18, 2022, 02:01:25 pmI'd prefer not, though there are some circumstances where you might, between the fixed wiring and the terminals in the fitting, and withall of it inside the fitting. Far less likely to have any significant mechanical load within a light fitting, than in some sort of adaptable box with Wagos joining the fixed wiring to a washing machine flex. Not sure if that's exactly what nctnico meant, but it's what Ithinkhe meant, and that's the sort of thing that you see in the "Caught on Camera" section of Professional Electrician magazine.Not to mention the fact that the electrical load would be significantly higher for a washing machine than for the average LED light fitting (we don't fit anything else nowadays). I honestly can't recall ever using Wagos on anything bigger than 1.5mm2, so basically lighting circuits, fire alarms, assistance alarms.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 18, 2022, 04:21:11 pm
content: Quote from: AVGresponding on December 18, 2022, 04:17:30 pmNo maintenance free boxes in your work, then. Luckily you always get to rip up every floor freely or destroy the plaster?Wagos do need to be properly supported, though - on solid core wiring if they're allowed to move independently to the cable they'll fret with vibration, which is bad.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 18, 2022, 04:47:43 pm
content: Quoteindeed and thats the beauty of there boxes,also the "fixing button" to me is the work of a geniusQuoteand on those annoying led fittings that come with 6 inches of flex hanging out of there sealed enclosure? or were you need to come off an existing ring under the floor? give me wagos anyday over the old 3/4/6 terminal landmines

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 18, 2022, 05:59:43 pm
content: Quote from: AVGresponding on December 18, 2022, 11:12:15 amIf I may ask: If you are not using wire nuts and not using Wagos, what are you using? Perhaps connectors with levers?I'll admit that making a good wire nut connection is a bit of an art. And maybe you are talking about different ones. The ones I'm familiar with have a coil made from square wire that cuts into the copper to make an extremely durable connection. When the cap is twisted off, the coil should stay in place. Kind of a reverse wire-wrap connection which is also considered to give a very durable & resillient connection.Like this:You'll pull the wires apart before the connection itself.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2022, 08:23:02 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on December 17, 2022, 06:23:06 pmIncorrect, because of the arrangement of standard American outlets. As I said: a 10-gang box gives you 20 outlets, because it ends up looking like the picture attached. The spacing between outlets is about 2.5” (around 6cm) apart.(The image shows a commercial-grade power strip, made of real outlets in an enclosure.)Quote from: nctnico on December 17, 2022, 06:23:06 pmAnd what’s stopping an electrician from wiring the outlets in a star topology if so desired?Your original objection to my proposal claims that it would “need” lots of daisy-chaining, yet you then explain how your house has a bunch of outlets wired in a star topology. Do you not see a contradiction there?

author: JohanH
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2022, 10:51:29 am
content: There are different rules of thumb how many outlets you could or shouldn't daisy chain (or connect in a star) from a single RCD, but none of this actually matters, unless you have calculated the expected power consumption and short circuit current. By daisy chaining many outlets, in theory the short circuit current will get worse (lower) and you might end up tripping your RCD too slowly. Depending on design, outlets might be under physical stress, which could cause chained wires to get worse connection over time. YMMV

author: AVGresponding
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2022, 11:17:28 am
content: Quote from: Monkeh on December 18, 2022, 04:21:11 pmWe don't do domestic work, floorboards are not normally a thing in big council buildings, or schools, which are the places we do most of our jobs. Much of it is new build (extensions to schools) or bare structure refurbs.If we put cables in walls, they arealwaysin (proper) containment, occasionally plastic but usually metal conduit (none of that shitty capping). I dislike the dust and noise generated by chasing in, but I prefer the end result over surface containment, though obviously dado trunking is best for situations where you need a lot of outlets, ie an IT classroom, open plan office etc. I also enjoy making metal conduit up, and seeing the pride in the faces of apprentices when they make their first good piece. I hate working with plastic conduit though...Where Wagos are used, they'll either be in a Wago box or a Wiska/similar membrane box, or a normal adaptable box, and cable entry will be using stuffing glands.Quote from: themadhippy on December 18, 2022, 04:47:43 pmAgreed, jb's are the work of the devil...We don't use any fittings like that, all ours are rewireable at the control gear, PIRs tooI guess if I had to deal with such a thing, I'd use Wagos in a Wago box, and in the past, terminal strip in a choccy box.Quote from: tooki on December 19, 2022, 08:23:02 amNothing, provided it's done correctly (each radial would have to be off a fused spur), and the client is prepared to pay for the extra labour and materials involved.Quote from: JohanH on December 19, 2022, 10:51:29 amI'd be surprised to see that happen in a typical domestic environment, unless it was a very big house it's unlikely the cable would get long enough.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2022, 12:03:55 pm
content: Quotegoing off topic,but weres all the black metal conduit gone? used to be everywhere,now its a special order.

author: AVGresponding
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2022, 01:18:07 pm
content: Quote from: themadhippy on December 19, 2022, 12:03:55 pmI'd guess it's just out of fashion with designers/architects, and so isn't made in volume any more? I've only seen it specced a couple of times in the last decade or so, and iirc it ended up not being used anyway due to lead times.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2022, 03:50:55 pm
content: Quote from: Black Phoenix on December 18, 2022, 04:47:40 amThat's a cobbled together mess.Quote from: themadhippy on December 19, 2022, 12:03:55 pmProbably gone out of fashion after people see what the enamel looks like after the zinc starts doing its business. Ends up looking like my brake lines, and that's not a pretty picture..

author: AVGresponding
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2022, 06:00:41 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on December 19, 2022, 03:50:55 pmI didn't watch this vid when Black Phoenix first posted it, but I wish I had. Points to the YT creator for a Great Ironic title. That is some of the worst containment work I've ever seen, and I have to deal with stoned/disinterested apprentices. If I did work like that, I'd be fired pretty damn fast.Quote from: Monkeh on December 19, 2022, 03:50:55 pmThat reminds me of the siggy of one of the users of the Autoshite forum: "Man addicted to brake fluid claims he can stop whenever he wants".

author: nightfire
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2022, 06:46:03 pm
content: Quote from: AVGresponding on December 19, 2022, 06:00:41 pmFor the apprentices, I can feel you- and BTW, YMMD with that quote ;-)But honestly, I have seen worse from some professional companies that were regarded as good quality in the area where they were providing services...I admit that I have only given it a quick glance, and spotted one or two Wago where it probably should not be in the first place, but the main setup from the approach looked reasonable. In the "Brüstungskanal" he uses pluggable outlets that are able to be daisy-chained, which is usually some expensive stuff from special manufacturers.In the "Abzweigdosen" (connection joint boxes) the usage of Wago ist normal in germany and in fact the preferred way of doing it- I would have to look up if german code demands connectors like this.And because those boxes are available for inspection at anytime, it conforms to code regarding final electrical installation testing (isolation/grounding), where it says that you have to visually inspect those joints for signs of overload/trouble. In Germany usually mandated for commercial objects every 4 years. Ok, he does not show that the installation is tested after installation ;-)In contrast, the use of wire nuts is frowned upon in germany- maybe some stuff that seems strange is due to differences in country and code?

author: AVGresponding
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2022, 06:58:19 pm
content: Quote from: nightfire on December 19, 2022, 06:46:03 pmI have been chatting in Discord about this with one of our German members, and it seems DEU regs on containment differ considerably from UK ones. I still think it looks terrible to have exposed bends!

author: nightfire
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2022, 07:30:51 pm
content: Yes, exposed bends are not nice to look at, but the usual way it is done. There are things you *could* do, like premade 90 degree tubes or flexible tube to wrap, but thats a bit more ugly in most cases. In areas with some condensation it is also mandated that in some cases you should do some lower point/bend so that water will collect there and drip down, and you have some free air circulation in the straight tubes to prevent moisture buildup.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2022, 08:08:49 pm
content: Quoteor learn how to make bends in pipe ,for plastic all you need is a spring and a knee.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2022, 08:11:14 pm
content: Quote from: themadhippy on December 19, 2022, 08:08:49 pmAnd for the last week or so a hot air gun...

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2022, 09:43:38 pm
content: Quote from: themadhippy on December 19, 2022, 08:08:49 pmAnd strong hands. Watching my family member working with plastic pipe always amazed me how he managed to create all kinds of odd shapes to make the piping look nice. My own pipe bending results don't look so nice

author: Black Phoenix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 20, 2022, 04:07:30 am
content: Quote from: AVGresponding on December 19, 2022, 06:58:19 pmI don't see how glaring it is. It's common to see such in Industrial applications both in Germany, Portugal (my country) and even China (were I'm currently stationed).It meets and in some cases (China) suppass the regs.In UK is different, but for me the most outrageously thing is how home installation in the UK is done, with the CUs under stairs or high in the ceeling or inside cabinets in kitchens and cables under floorboards, in some case just laying down there. And the ring circuits...Give me the inside wall PVC pipes with singles and junction box on each room every single day and radial circuits as it's done in Europe and China. Ahh and let's not talk about the cluster fuck it is the Australian CUs (just look at Dave's video about it).CUs should be in a easy accessible, at a proper height level without needing steps or going inside a cramped place to do any work. But if it meets regs of the country then it's just a different way of doing it.

author: AVGresponding
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 20, 2022, 11:27:00 am
content: Quote from: Black Phoenix on December 20, 2022, 04:07:30 amIt is in the regs that consumer units, panel boards, distribution boards, should be readily accessible for maintenance and testing purposes.The BS7671 regs are not a legally binding document though, just guidance for making safe and reliable installations, ie, if you follow the guidance and someone dies from a problem with your installation, you're unlikely to be prosecuted. If you deviate and someone dies however, you're in trouble.If you deviate and can provide a good engineering explanation/risk assessment for how and why your deviation is as safe as the preferred method, and why it's necessary, you'll get it signed off (as long as the Clerk of Works/Installation Tester is knowledgeable enough to understand, not guaranteed...).

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 20, 2022, 03:43:51 pm
content: Quote from: Black Phoenix on December 20, 2022, 04:07:30 am.. well, for us 'containment' means containing, not covering some parts of and leaving all the difficult bits open because it's too much bother to get it right.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 20, 2022, 04:27:50 pm
content: yea it looks crap,but even in the uk ,that particular installation would comply with the regs as the cables are double insulated, all its doing is offering additional mechanical protection.Quoteya big girls blouse,rubbing yer hand up and down the pipe a few times gets it warm enough.

author: AVGresponding
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 20, 2022, 04:45:47 pm
content: Quote from: themadhippy on December 20, 2022, 04:27:50 pmYes, it's not outside the regs, it just looks shit. It would look better just tower clipped.Having to wank the tube isextremelytedious, especially if you have many bends to do.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 20, 2022, 04:47:52 pm
content: Quote from: themadhippy on December 20, 2022, 04:27:50 pmI don't know, I'm not convinced that qualifies as good workmanship!I was also under the impression PVC conduit (and trunking) was not classed as mechanical protection, although let's be honest, we all consider it better than bare cables to be bumped and scraped. Metal conduit just isn't needed in most cases.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 20, 2022, 04:55:41 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on December 20, 2022, 04:47:52 pmOver here PVC conduit can be bought in 2 grades: 'regular' (typically yellow) and 'impact resistant' (typically grey). The 'impact resistant' variation is typically used to guide sheathed cable (with the bends open indeed) where the regular variant is used inside walls, cement floors and piping along a ceiling (for example) to carry individual wires. When individual wires are used, the pipes are supposed to cover these end-to-end to inside the junction boxes.

author: nightfire
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 20, 2022, 05:21:22 pm
content: Quote from: AVGresponding on December 20, 2022, 11:27:00 amThe german VDE standards are also privately developed recommendations how to do stuff- but there is a referral from the law (§49 enWG) that the people erecting installations have to work accordingly to the acknowledged rules of technology- and this is considered to be followed if people work accordingly to VDE standards.

author: vad
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2022, 06:06:19 am
content: Quote from: l9o on December 16, 2022, 03:44:51 pmIt is always a good idea to have GFCI protection in workshop.Lights may or may not be on GFCI protected circuit, depending on local code. In Massachusetts, where I live, it is against the code to wire every lighting outlet behind GFCI: "210.70(D): GFCI Protection of Lighting Outlets in All Occupancies: The operation of a single GFCI device shall not deenergize all lighting outlets in a given area."AFCI is debatable. I do have AFCI breakers on two out of three 20A circuits in my workshop. My DIY Controleo3-based reflow oven used to trip AFCI, so I am now plugging it into GFCI-only circuit. I also had incidents when conducted EMI from misbehaving DUT (SMPS) was tripping the AFCI.

author: nightfire
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2022, 11:35:31 am
content: In germany we have similar regulations, but here it is ok to wire them half/half behind 2 RCDs.I would also read this regulation in a similar way- the aim is not to have everything in the dark when a group RCD trips.