New LED lights reliability - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / projects

author: thexeno
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2019, 10:05:29 am
content: Hi all,I think this is a hot topic to many.In the last 2 years I updated some lamps in my home. I went through a pretty expensive Philips and Osram E27 LED lamps. This because with the old CCFL, whether branded or chinese, mainly the latter, they get burned after a way shorter lifespan than the conventional halogen or incandescent. The problem is now well known and was related to the number of turn on/off cycles, air flowing and so on, achieving a long life (if the lamp was reliable) when turned on/off only one time per day in average, in a aired environment. Ok, they tried, it was a transitioning technology.So I was quite happy about LEDs, as they are supposed to withstand more cycles. Problem is that, with the proper branded lamps, in a batch of 6 between 2 Philips and 4 Osram, only the Philips and 2 Osram survived, and the Osram were in a place in which they were not used often. The ones that died, were stopped working after 1 month, in the living room, where the switch cycles were not frequent, in a open lamp holder. Opening the lamp, I saw the LED die burned with a black spot.Then I bought a lower brand, made in china but from a proper supplier (Beghelli) with simpler converter, which did not uses a full AC/DC, but a rectified method, therefore the LEDs were flickering a bit. The lamps are there for 2 years now, and they were 50% cheaper.Now I need to update some spot light, with G5.3 lights, and the last bought was Philips which I was happy with. I wanted to order on Amazon again, but the price seems higher and I started to look for reviews of alternatives. Osram and Philips got fairly negative ones, while Amazon's chinese brands were pretty good evaulated. Now I believe them.So my question is, if I want to be safe, should I continue to waste my money in LED lamps from proper manufacturers and being safe, or there are alternatives which are reliable brands? I don't like to buy from anonymous brands though, like all the chinese alternative on Amazon.I wonder if those big companies are aware on the lack of reliability of their stuff.Thanks for your opinions!

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2019, 12:51:06 pm
content: Everyone seems to have differing experiences with LED lamps. I replaced all the lamps in my parent's house with LEDs, some cheap no brand and some more expensive branded ones around 5 years ago and not had any problems. The only issue I've had is with some very cheap LED lamps, used in a bedside lamp which blew fairly quickly.In my house, I have a mixture of LED and CFL. The latter came with the house. I don't bother replacing CFL lamps with LED, unless the lamp has failed, as it results in minimal energy savings.

author: IDEngineer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2019, 04:22:54 pm
content: I entirely skipped the whole nonsensical CCFL fad and waited for LED's to mature. A couple of years ago we remodeled the house and in the process switched 99% of the bulbs to LED's. Since that time we've lost just one to failure, which is better than incandescents ever performed.Many of the replaced bulbs were high intensity GU10 50W halogens, used for general lighting in the kitchen and living room and in the lights in ceiling fans. Those 50W add up fast... 6-8 of them on a strip is a 300-400 watt fixture! When we'd have power outages we'd avoid using them because they represented a decent percentage of our 7KW generator's output.That's been the single best improvement from the LED's: If the power is out and we're on generator, we don't have to be selective about the electrical appliances/lights we use. All sources of heat are natural gas, not electricity ("If you want heat, burn something!"), so we only need power to run blowers and induction air fans to heat the entire house. When we had incandescents and (especially) halogens, we had to be selective.BTW, those GU10 LED bulbs are amazing. Every bit as intense as halogens, and the pure white 5000K color temperature is an awesome bonus. Regular old Edison base "40-75W equivalent" bulbs aren't that technologically impressive, but packing 50W equivalent optical output into the GU10's small form factor is really impressive. Cheap too... we get boxes of 6-10 from Amazon or eBay for far less than the local big box stores want.

author: DaJMasta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2019, 05:09:46 pm
content: I've switched over a bunch for some years, and my experience so far is that they're around the reliability of decent fluorescents - though I suspect that with time they'll prove to be better, it's just a small sample size.Had a 100W equivalent bulb fail just a couple weeks ago, so I opened it up. Phillips brand, looked OK on the LED board side and the power supply bit in the stem would have been gnarly to get out, so I pulled the board and couldn't power it up on an external supply. Turned out one LED on the board had failed open, and even though there were 20 or so, since they were all wired in series for better efficiency in the voltage downconversion.... they all went out.

author: timelessbeing
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2019, 07:14:43 pm
content: Yup my LED bulbs fail too. They can't make them too reliable or manufacturers would lose too much money. They need to ride the "green" hype all the way to the bank.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoebus_cartel

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2019, 07:19:22 pm
content: I think a big problem is cultural, we just don't return cheap items to the store often enough any more. The pressure on manufacturers to keep MTBF and variability under control is being lost.

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2019, 07:48:59 pm
content: Actually, it's the sea of patents that prevents decent LED bulbs from being made.Even a little method is patented and litigated. So you are really limited for heatsink strategies, for example.Vent holes, fins etc. are patented. Between Cree, Feit, Osram, Philips, LG, Seoul etc. thousands of patents and tons of lawsuits.It's to the point you can't simply make a decent design, you have to jump through hoops to avoid infringing on someone's IP.End result: crappy lifetime and higher environmental costs, compared to incandescent bulbs.

author: Kleinstein
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2019, 08:00:44 pm
content: I have switched relatively late, most of them about 2 years ago. I started with the lower power ones (e.g. 3-5 W LEDs). So far not s single failure from mixed brands and cheap ones. From what I have heard the early higher power ones tended to fail - so I avoided them.The early ESL were kind of OK, the later ones with reduced Hg take way too long to fully turn on.

author: timelessbeing
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2019, 08:14:54 pm
content: Quote from: floobydust on January 31, 2019, 07:48:59 pmOh bullcrap

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2019, 08:59:34 pm
content: Quote from: timelessbeing on January 31, 2019, 08:14:54 pmDo your research, take a look at the patents.It doesn't matter if you are Kmart, Lowe's etc. you will get sued for patent infringement:https://www.ledinside.com/taxonomy/term/2463One example, against Lowe's... you can't even use glue:"Epistar’s complaint alleges that the Kichler Lighting’s LED filament bulbs such as the Kichler Lighting 60 W Equivalent Dimmable Soft White A15 LED Decorative Light Bulb (P/N: YGA16A08-A15C-CL-5W) infringe one or more claims of Epistar’s U.S. Patent Numbers 6,346,771, titled “High Power LED Lamp,” 7,560,738, titled “Light-Emitting Diode Array Having An Adhesive Layer,” 8,791,467, titled “Light Emitting Diode And Method Of Making The Same,” 8,492,780, titled “Light-Emitting Device And Manufacturing Method Thereof,” and 8,587,020, titled “LED Lamp.”Epistar’s complaint also alleges that the Utilitech’s LED bulbs such as the Utilitech 60 W Equivalent Warm White A19 LED Light Fixture Light Bulb (P/N: YGA03A41-A19-9W-830) infringe one or more claims of Epistar’s U.S. Patent Numbers 8,492,780, titled “Light-Emitting Device And Manufacturing Method Thereof,” and 8,587,020, titled “LED Lamp.”

author: timelessbeing
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2019, 09:05:21 pm
content: Yes I'm sure there is the usual patent circus, but it's irrelevant.Manufacturers simply want to make bulbs as cheap as possible in order to move more product, and consumables are the perfect market for this.Quote from: Marco on January 31, 2019, 07:19:22 pmExactly right. They know you won't be driving back to the store to return your $3 bulb.

author: MD Kowshik
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: February 01, 2019, 07:55:25 am
content: Well I once bought a LED lamp (osram) for my bedroom almost 6 years ago and its still going .... I also bought a LED lamp a few weeks ago (chinese) and it blew up in my face as I turned it on for the first time so....

author: timelessbeing
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2019, 08:17:24 am
content: onelamp ... is that supposed to be significant in some way?The one that failed on me was a common brand from a local store.

author: jackwatson
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: February 01, 2019, 09:50:54 am
content: LED light usage depends on where you use them, they can get damaged usually when you provide a higher voltage than required. But otherwise they have a quite long span. I have been using led's all over my house right now and i dont think i have replaced any in the past 6 months

author: timelessbeing
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2019, 09:56:28 am
content: Quote from: jackwatson on February 01, 2019, 09:50:54 amNot sure about you guys, but the line voltage here is pretty consistent. I would also think that household electronics are required to be a bit tolerant.6 months isn't much.

author: thexeno
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2019, 09:24:44 am
content: Ok, for some reason I don't feel more optimistic after reading the replies. I have to say, really interesting optinions..So, the solution is making your own LED bulbs with the best technology, in bulk, not selling them so you can not be charged for patent infringement! But they must be in enough quantity up to provide light forniture to your grand-grand-children to spread the costs

author: OwO
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2019, 09:36:06 am
content: Building a good quality LED lamp is not hard, as long as you are willing to give up the "bulb" form factor. All you need are some LED strips, a good quality power supply/driver, and a big aluminum plate.

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2019, 10:18:36 am
content: If the EU wanted to do something useful (Hah) they should create a standardized DC socket with standardized dimming protocol, and mandate procurement of it for all EU agencies. The commercial high reliability LED lighting has separate DC transformers. For residential we're stuck with AC for sockets because the only low voltage sockets we have are legacy AC ones for halogen lights. So we can get strips or an electrolytic capacitor in the lamp body.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2019, 11:02:01 am
content: Two years ago I bought four some brands of led bulbs with the same socket, power and colourtemperature.Philips, Osram, China1, China2Well the chinese have their cutting corners strategies:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/lets-see-what-a-$4-ebay-_cree_-ledspot-looks-like/msg1189082/#msg1189082But with later spots I also found out that the cheapest Philips drivers are inside almost chinese with some addons like a proper fuse.But the leds and panels are from the same kind of factory as the china2 spots.Why? Philips can't compete anymore with their western design led spots because no westerner will pay the extra few $ to get a decent led lamp.So they "clone" or better said make their led lamps the same price as the cheapest no-name brands , add a few minimal safety addons like proper fuse so they can't be sued in case it might be a cause of fire, and sell them with the $0,10 profit. Look at their stock prices and years results, they are not doing ok on the led lamp sells. Where they make their money is on professional lighting where the industries require and demand long lifetime and less care about the final price.In professional lighting the cost of ownership is directly fixed with the reliability and longlevity of the product.If you have to replace a driver or led panel from a street lamp someone has to driver there, climb in the pole and exchange the hardware. Total cost of that operation in manhours far exceeds the cost of the hardware that is replaced.But western consumers are so cheap these days, they refuse to pay a decent price for their lighting products, not only the bulbs but also the fixtures are bought at Ikea for $10 instead of Lampstore design fixture for ten times that price, they don't care, if there is light, there is light.

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2019, 11:29:52 am
content: I'm afraid if you want reliability you will need to make your own LED lighting.The LEDs themselves are fine but the drivers in consumer lights are always pushed near their thermal max to make them fail in the 1-3 year range.LED strip lighting is one way to get something reliable. And you can make some pretty nice room lighting with hidden led strips.I've done my bedroom with a hangng false-ceiling with RGBW strip lighting and am very happy with it.It's all indirect light and shines up onto the real ceiling and reflects off that.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2019, 01:10:54 pm
content: apples and oranges.Led light strips have a diffused light for coves and large area lighting.Led spots have a focussed light beam to accentuate certain objects.Besides the efficiency of led strips is low due to the resistors

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2019, 01:17:48 pm
content: Led strips use low power leds (typ. 20 mA) (0,06W)Led spot lights use medium power leds (200-500mA) (0,5-2W)When you can live with diffuse lighting and still want more light I would suggest make your own led panels with medium power leds and as many in series per string as your led driver supports to get high efficiency.

author: Nauris
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2019, 05:09:07 pm
content: Quote from: OwO on February 06, 2019, 09:36:06 am"Linear fluorescent tube" is a good form factor, it has all you list in easy to change unit, well maybe not aluminium plate but glass tube instead but they don't run hot. We have two dozen and not a single one broken yet and they are well past 10k hours already.

author: rrinker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2019, 08:09:27 pm
content: Guess I better get more of those Utilitech 60 watt equivalents before they get blocked from selling them. I have LOTS of those, those are the ones I typically use for most standard light fixtures. I replaced every other type of light in my house with them, going on 5 ears now I think I have one failure, although sometimes it works so I haven't bothered to replace it yet. It's in a multi-bulb fixture so there's still plenty of light. I have a couple of fixtures plus an outdoor pole light that use the candelabra base type, those are all still going strong. The newest ones replaced my back yard floodlights, but even those are almost 3 years old now with no issues. And those are on ALL the time, always turn on the lights to let the dogs out. So they get a lot of use PLUS lots of cycling on and off. Multiple times per day. Pretty sure even those are Utilitech brand.

author: djacobow
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2019, 09:05:00 pm
content: Just another datapoint:I have a bunch of Home Depot LED cans installed about 7 years ago when they were $40-50 a pop and they are all still going (knock wood), though the built-in, non-replaceable fascia has yellowed. They also work nicely with dimmers.I also have a bunch of Edison-base bulbs in ceiling fixtures in the kids' bedrooms and these fail at analarmingrate. These are enclosed fixtures with the bulb mounted horizontally and with no airflow. I have tried different brands, cheap, expensive, n between. I don't think I have seen a single bulb last more than a year without failing. I keep throwing money at this, but ultimately, I think the solution is new fixtures.I think the testing on the LED edison style bulbs has mostly been done in simulated table lamps: bulb upright in free airflow. This is, unfortunately, probably the ideal circumstance for bulb and not a good simulation of modern usage.I'm pretty disappointed overall.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2019, 09:31:28 pm
content: I must say that from the start I have always thought and believed in led lighting as:- new designed permanent led fixtures- low voltage driven (12-39V)- dedicated driversSince 2011 I have tens of such spots in my ceiling, none has failed.The problems all seem to concentrate on either low priced stuff or replacing old fashioned conventional bulbs with their antique design and fittings. Very dissapointing that the next generation of lighting is being handicapped by 100 years old designs.

author: timelessbeing
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2019, 09:44:17 pm
content: When the pot burns out or fails, can you replace just the LED element, or do you have to buy a whole new fixture?

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2019, 09:52:23 pm
content: What do you mean with "pot" ?

author: timelessbeing
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2019, 10:20:15 pm
content: We call them pot lights in North America, because the enclosure looks like an upside-down cooking pot.

author: djacobow
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2019, 10:24:23 pm
content: Quote from: Kjelt on February 06, 2019, 09:31:28 pmIt is not unreasonable for people to not want to replace their old fixtures, which they like and chose at least partly for aesthetic reasons with new ones just because the technology has changed. I suspect that in the long term, people will make such changes, but in this will be gradual, and people want to use LEDs in the short term. Also, it's not like the LED folks are warning everyone that the bulbs that fit in many old fixtures will basically fail much sooner than an ordinary incandescent.I don't think the next generation of lighting is handicapped this way, by the way. The hardware stores in my area are stocked with all manner of fixtures that have funky new bases or built-in power supplies and non-changeable LEDs. And in fact, in my state, new construction mandates the use of such fixtures in most areas of the home. But you can hardly blame people for not wanting to replace a fixture with a new one that is essentially non-repairable and with no replaceable parts, especially given the failure rates reported in this thread and others.Personally, I have not replaced the fixtures in the bedrooms in my house because they are absurdly large and unless I want to get similarly large replacements, I would have to respackle and repaint around the fixture for it to look nice, a job I don't usually feel like doing.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2019, 10:25:06 pm
content: Ah ok, well if the driver fails you can replace it or as we are EEs here repair itBut indeed when the leds are EOL the entire "pot" will need replacement or again since we are EEs here we could replace the donut (aluminium plate with the leds soldered on them) or replace the leds by physically removing them cleaning the donut and reflow new replacement leds on them.Since the life expectancy of these "pots" are 25 years with 60-70% of original lumens left and I reprogrammed the driver to output max 80% of the nominal current my guess is that these "pots" will outlive me

author: djacobow
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2019, 10:27:20 pm
content: Quote from: timelessbeing on February 06, 2019, 10:20:15 pmI also hear them called "cans" a lot.

author: djacobow
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2019, 10:31:59 pm
content: Quote from: Kjelt on February 06, 2019, 10:25:06 pmI think you are right, assuming everything goes well. My fear is that many of these will not last 25+ years, but as they say, time will tell. My experience so far is that purpose-designed LED fixtures are working OK after >7 years.As it happens, I have some CFL-based cans in my kitchen that were mandated by the State of California at the time the kitchen was remodeled. These were designed to take CFLs and have the ballast built in. Out of six lamps, one of the ballasts has already failed, requiring me to go into our gross attic to replace it. I have also replaced at least a dozen CFLs in the last few years. So, once again, painful experience has made many of us rather skeptical.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2019, 10:40:20 pm
content: Quote from: djacobow on February 06, 2019, 10:24:23 pmIf you have designer fixtures or antiques I can understand and you should preferably continue using the original conventional bulbs since that is where they were designed for.I must not think of the idea of a led bulb in an original Tiffanies.But for the rest it is silly esp when you see how easily people buy and throw away their other electronic devices some costing many times more than all the fixtures in the house.So I claim it is mostly not esthetics, it is lazyness for upgrading esp. when it needs extra work because it does not fit, which is ok but should be named as such.QuoteBecause it depends on the fixture. If it has enough room or openings to keep the airflow keeping the bulb relative cool there is no problem. However many fixtures are closed at the fitting, and if upside down there is where the heat will be kept, ergo short lifetime. There are gazillions of different fixtures go try to explain to mrs Jones age 75 which fixtures are ok to upgrade and which not.QuoteIf you are over 45 and use the dedicated led fixture for 8 hours a day and turn it down to 75% it will outlive you , perhaps the driver capacitor should be replaced sometimeQuoteI mentioned that above, but if it is much work I understand, if it is part of the architecture or you like the esthetic looks I also understand. The price might be to have to replace the bulbs sooner than expected due to lifetime issues.

author: djacobow
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2019, 12:32:14 am
content: Quote from: Kjelt on February 06, 2019, 10:40:20 pmThis is not quite right. If the 25 years is a guarantee, then great, when it fails ahead of that, you bring it back and get a new one for free, right? Or maybe for the pro-rata remaining expected lifetime? In reality this will be hard if the store or company is gone.But the real problem is that often no such warranty is provided. Instead, it is a "claim." Furthermore, it is really a 25 year MTTF, which, depending on the shape of the probability function, means that there is a significant chance of failure after only a few years. And if you have, say 20 of those fixtures and the probability curve is normal around the mean, the chance that one or more of them fail in a few years is actually very high.I don't dispute the rest of your response. Yeah, it would be hard for manufacturers to advise everyone on whether a bulb would work in a given fixture, but a simple acknowledgement that a bulb *will* fail early if in a fixture without free air flow would be nice.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2019, 01:50:18 am
content: I upgraded all the bulbs in my house from CFL to LED starting in early 2011 extending over the next couple years. Initially I was replacing CFLs as they failed but the LEDs were so much nicer that I soon got tired of waiting. I used Philips, EcoSmart (Home Depot brand) and Cree bulbs. Later on I got a few inexpensive GE bulbs. Since then I've had two of the Ecosmart and one GE bulb fail, and the glass bulb fell off a Cree but it still worked. All of the ones I had problems with were in heavily used fully enclosed fixtures despite the bulbs saying not to use them fully enclosed so I consider that my fault. The Philips have been the best, I have yet to see a bad one anywhere.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2019, 01:54:44 am
content: Quote from: Kjelt on February 06, 2019, 10:40:20 pmWhy does it even matter? It took some work to design a suitable retrofit LED bulb but now that has been accomplished, they are quite good, inexpensive and reliable. There are advantages too, if you want to change the color temperature or wattage or install something different like a colored bulb or blacklight for holidays/events/parties you simply unscrew one bulb and screw in another. You can't do that with fixtures that have built in LED modules.Those of course have other advantages, they can be made in unique shapes and styles, it's good to have them available too. I like choices.

author: timelessbeing
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2019, 02:47:42 am
content: Quote from: james_s on February 07, 2019, 01:50:18 amALL bulbs should work enclosed. If it doesn't it's farking useless.

author: djacobow
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2019, 04:10:41 am
content: Quote from: james_s on February 07, 2019, 01:54:44 amExcept that bulb has not yet been designed at all.Ceiling fixtures are a common use case. There are zero bare bulbs or bulbs in table lamps in my home but there are many ceiling fixtures. And these bulbs fail in such fixtures. I have tried many and thrown away a lot of money in the process.You can define away a problem if it makes you feel better, but if your question is why do people not run out and mass adopt these otherwise wonderful "retrofit" bulbs, the answer is staring right at you.* PS - in the US, 37% of households are renters. Those folks are not in a position to "just replace the fixtures". They're stuck with what the landlord installed.

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2019, 05:09:52 am
content: Quote from: Kjelt on February 06, 2019, 01:10:54 pmi don't mean the OP should use strip lights, just that you need to make your own lights if you want them to still be working 20 years from now.

author: timelessbeing
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2019, 08:34:43 am
content: I felt compelled to tear apart a failed bulb I had (a one-way process unfortunately).The thermal design actually seems decent to me. Lots of chunky aluminum. But the power supply is really horrid. The board (the crappiest phenolic resin) was scorched black, and on the verge of crumbling apart. The components look really cheap. Protection consists of a resistor.The LED array looks good too. They used some fancy springy through hole contacts for the connector. The LEDs seem to have gone open circuit unfortunately, so the bulb has pretty much self destructed.It's kind of a shame because overall the construction seems good, and aluminum is not cheap. And it's all crippled because they tried to save a penny on the driver.

author: OwO
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2019, 09:48:59 am
content: Doesn't matter how good the thermal conductivity from LED to casing is, it's still crippled by the (nonexistent) surface area of that form factor. You will never be able to dissipate >5W of power in that size while keeping the LEDs adequately cooled without a fan.The large rectangular ceiling-mount light fixture design gives you both repairability and good cooling. If a LED fails you can either replace the strip (no soldering needed) or if you want, replace the LED.

author: OwO
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2019, 09:53:36 am
content: This is the type I'm talking about:Inside there are rows of LED strips screwed to the top aluminum panel, which is screwed to the ceiling.You want to get one with the largest area possible, and space out the LED strips.

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2019, 10:18:45 am
content: Quote from: OwO on February 07, 2019, 09:48:59 amLuckily, there's no need to dissipate over 5W in the E27 bulb form factor.The key to a good design is to use the most efficient LEDs available (the typical variance is around 2x, from around 70 lm/W to about 140 lm/W, so this does matter), combined with an efficient driver. Done this way, a 5W LED bulb emits about 2W of light and heats about 3W, while producing around 500lm, which is what the original fixtures were designed to deliver, and what people expect them to do.

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2019, 12:45:23 pm
content: I put a thinner version of those square panel lights on top of my motorized drop down projector mount.Keeps it nice and hidden away

author: 001
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2019, 02:26:09 pm
content: Hi!SMD LEDs are foolish vintage crap.Try new technologyhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LED_filamenthttps://youtu.be/25j2C4jq2HI

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2019, 02:33:48 pm
content: Quote from: djacobow on February 07, 2019, 04:10:41 amOr bring your own plug in lamps. On a side note, it appears that in Australia, the light fixtures plug in so renters *can* change them as Dave did in his lab.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2019, 04:45:08 pm
content: Quote from: djacobow on February 07, 2019, 04:10:41 amThat's funny because I have dozens of these bulbs that haven't been designed yet in my house, many of which have been in service since 2011 and they work just fine. A majority of the lights in my house are enclosed ceiling fixtures, I did have a few early LED lamps fail but most have been fine, I've almost forgotten what it's like to change a lightbulb.

author: mikerj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2019, 04:47:52 pm
content: Quote from: 001 on February 07, 2019, 02:26:09 pmPerfect if you like really flickery lights that aren't compatible with dimmers.

author: 001
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2019, 05:06:34 pm
content: Quote from: mikerj on February 07, 2019, 04:47:52 pmI cant see any flicker on it with my phone (but phone can help to see fliker at notebook screen)

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2019, 06:40:30 pm
content: Quote from: mikerj on February 07, 2019, 04:47:52 pmOnly true for the pure capacitive droppers ... how common are those compared to active converters (dimmable) and linear regulators (not dimmable, but not much flicker either)?

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2019, 07:12:30 pm
content: Quote from: 001 on February 07, 2019, 02:26:09 pmIt all depends on your application.If you have an existing fixture fitting for a conventional bulb, yes good replacement.If you have downlighters , or ceiling fixtures or cabinet ligting or spots you don't need diffuse 360olight, you only need light shining in a restricted angle, so led smds are preferred.

author: 001
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2019, 07:14:39 pm
content: Quote from: Kjelt on February 07, 2019, 07:12:30 pmThe main benefits of filament led are great cooling conditions. No massive aluminium bricks around

author: timelessbeing
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2019, 07:53:26 pm
content: Quote from: 001 on February 07, 2019, 02:26:09 pmWhat is the lumen output of the those filament bulbs? It's probably nowhere near what SMD led or incandescent bulbs produce.

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2019, 08:25:54 pm
content: Quote from: timelessbeing on February 07, 2019, 07:53:26 pmThey are a bit expensive, but Segula has a 40W E40 filament bulb.I wonder if it's the filament or switching electronics which are the limiting factor in this respect.

author: timelessbeing
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2019, 08:43:40 pm
content: I said lumen output, not power input.A) they are tiny LED emitters so they will never product much light. These bulbs are usually used for decoration, not illumination.B) There's virtually no thermal mass. It's extremely easy to overheat those tiny filaments. Power is intentionally kept low.The 40W bulb you mention is ENORMOUS.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2019, 08:51:00 pm
content: The efficiency of modern filaments look to be up to par to smd leds if I google quickly.

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2019, 09:03:55 pm
content: Quote from: timelessbeing on February 07, 2019, 08:43:40 pmIt's also 240W equivalent, 100W equivalent ones are dime a dozen.

author: timelessbeing
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2019, 09:07:42 pm
content: Wow ... a dime a dozen. That really is cheap.And I'm sure the specs are 100% real too.

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2019, 09:24:30 pm
content: 100 lm/W was standard even for box store lampsfour years ago. So yeah, those specs are real.

author: timelessbeing
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2019, 09:36:49 pm
content: link is broken.

author: timelessbeing
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2019, 09:41:34 pm
content: Pleases show me an LED filament bulb that can replace a 100W A19 size incandescent bulb that will output the same light (1600W) with good color spectrum for a sensible price, from a reputable brand (because we all know Chinese sellers are honest about their specifications)

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2019, 10:18:28 pm
content: 12W OSRAM dimmable. Dimmable is a bit rare in this range, guess they need too much room for the electronics.PS. you'll have to click through to get to the 12W model, OSRAM hired a retarded web monkey.

author: timelessbeing
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2019, 10:25:35 pm
content: It's huge (A70). It won't fit.

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2019, 11:10:09 pm
content: Huge is a bit hyperbole, but indeed there don't seem to be any filament lamps in that range. There are LED bulbs from Philips in the range, but it won't have the omnidirectional spread of filament.

author: timelessbeing
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2019, 12:28:07 am
content: well I just realized that A70 is a metric designation, which is really confusing and stupid. But yes it still won't fit most household fixtures.I question the usefulness of LEDs for retrofit use, after you consider all the factors performance, price, reliability etc. Especially where electricity is cheap.

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2019, 12:33:59 am
content: If you want long life LED lamps you can always buy a high power LED lamp then take it apart.Modify it to reduce the power down by 50%. That will boost it's lifespan A LOT.Since heat is the number 1 killer of led lamps.Need 20W, buy 40W and modify.Obviously it takes some effort and maybe you can't be bothered, but it will definitely last MUCH longer.

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2019, 01:31:42 am
content: Quote from: timelessbeing on February 08, 2019, 12:28:07 amThat's not here, over say 10000 hours a 100 Watt bulb costs me 200 Euro in electricity.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2019, 02:56:24 am
content: There already are reliable and long lasting LED bulbs, this problem has been solved for years. I have some from 2011 that are still working, even the ones that have run 12 hours a night on a timer all this time. How long do you need them to last?The biggest filament type I have are 800lm (60W equiv) I'm not a big fan of that type though. They tend to run cool since they have a large number of emitters driven at low current so they work well in enclosed fixtures but they also lack space for a proper high frequency driver so I find they have perceptible flicker.

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2019, 03:35:29 am
content: Why would a proper high frequency driver be large?

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2019, 04:21:43 am
content: Quote from: Marco on February 08, 2019, 03:35:29 amGenerally because inductors and electrolytic capacitors are relatively large, and high frequency drivers typically have at least one of each of those. Note that "large" is relative to the linear driver ICs used in most of the filament style bulbs.

author: OwO
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2019, 05:03:37 am
content: LED bulbs that are actually bright run too hot, and LED bulbs that last long are not bright enough.The efficiency of LEDs max out at <50%, so there is no way around the power dissipation problem. Even the most efficient 6W bulbs are nowhere near bright enough, so you need >5 of them for a typical bedroom. This is grossly suboptimal because instead of having one PSU/driver you have 5 of them, and each crammed into a tight space with LEDs running at 60 degrees C which does not bode well for the lifetime of the electrolytic capacitors.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2019, 05:28:18 am
content: I simply don't find that to be the case. My bedroom ceiling light has 3 early Philips 8W remote phosphor lamps, they are plenty bright and have been in service for 8 years now. The fixture in my hall has a pair of 6.5W 800lm filament style bulbs, again plenty bright. Over the dining table the fixture has 5 sockets with Philips 10.5W LED bulbs, they're way too bright at full brightness so they're on a dimmer and run typically at about half brightness. The bathrooms and several other rooms are lit by pairs of early Philips 12.5W bulbs, I've never had one of those fail. It feels like I've gone back in a time machine, people talking like bulbs don't exist yet that I've already been using for the better part of a decade. 100% of the Edison base fixtures and lamps in and on my house have been fitted with LED bulbs for years now, at least 30 bulbs in total, they're bright and reliable.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2019, 05:37:12 am
content: Quote from: OwO on February 08, 2019, 05:03:37 amQuote from: james_s on February 08, 2019, 05:28:18 amI have to agree that if it's just a normal bedroom only used as a bedroom, something like 5W of LED lighting is plenty to not run into things while going to bed. If having to get up in the middle of the night, even 1W is unpleasantly bright and a single 5mm LED is about perfect.

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2019, 06:29:13 am
content: Quote from: james_s on February 08, 2019, 04:21:43 am6.8 uF electrolytic is more than enough to keep the rectified voltage above 110V and fits just fine in E27, same goes for an inductor for a ~100 kHz buck converter.Even film capacitors would probably fit, but it would be much more expensive.

author: timelessbeing
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2019, 09:21:08 am
content: Quote from: Psi on February 08, 2019, 12:33:59 amRight because I have nothing better to do. Plus they are not made to be taken apart.Quote from: Psi on February 08, 2019, 12:33:59 amAs I already said, retrofit LED bulbs of equivalent output are larger than the the classic shapes they try to emulate.

author: timelessbeing
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2019, 09:25:53 am
content: 60W equivalent bulbs are OK for some locations. But places like the kitchen and workspaces, 100W equivalent bulbs are definitely needed. Especially in 70+ year old houses like the one I live in, where fixtures and outlets are sparse, and if you have few windows or are near or below ground level.

author: 001
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2019, 09:28:36 am
content: Why I`m so angry to read that?

author: timelessbeing
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2019, 09:58:25 am
content: I don't know but it's not healthy.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2019, 10:13:30 am
content: we can read and hear you with a normal fontsize and color just as well.Are you short of attention ?

author: 001
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2019, 10:38:08 am
content: Quote from: james_s on February 08, 2019, 05:28:18 amMe too.

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2019, 10:40:07 am
content: Quote from: timelessbeing on February 08, 2019, 09:25:53 amHereanda dimmable one.

author: timelessbeing
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2019, 11:26:30 am
content: I didn't find one for 110V

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2019, 11:28:43 am
content: I had a few broken LED lights so far, mostly spotlight types. In all cases it was poor thermal design causing the driver to fail. Especially the lamps for spotlight bulbs with a tight cover and limited air flow are problematic.

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2019, 11:54:00 am
content: Quote from: timelessbeing on February 08, 2019, 11:26:30 amThe US has its own brands though ... Topaz has 15W A19 bulbs.

author: timelessbeing
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2019, 12:04:49 pm
content: Quote from: Marco on February 08, 2019, 11:54:00 amOK but we are getting off topic now. These Corepro are ordinary SMD LED bulbs. I know those exist, and as we discussed they're not very useful since they overheat easily. Are they rated for use inside enclosed fixtures?It was suggested that filament bulbs were a better solution, hence I said:Quote from: timelessbeing on February 07, 2019, 09:41:34 pmBut I haven't yet seen any good candidates.As I suspected, there still are no decent retrofit bulbs ...

author: djacobow
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2019, 04:03:02 pm
content: I just need to stop and point out the arrogance on display in this thread. Such is common among engineers, and it is a good example of why engineers actually should generally not be allowed to design products unsupervised.If you have found LED bulbs that are suitable for all of your needs, congratulations, that's great.But it is absolutely insane to insist that this is a general principle good for everyone. It is up toeach person consideringLEDs to decide if they are bright enough, convenient enough, and reliable enoughfor them. In this thread, several people have pointed out that they are not, in fact, adequate for their needs. I find it rather bizarre that anyone would dispute another person's experience. But we see it over and over again:"I need a 100W equivalent" --> "no you don't, these are plenty bright""I have old fixtures that kill retrofit LEDs" -> "well, get all new fixtures"I think someone here even told someone else that the only light they need in their bedroom is to be able to get around at night. Maybe the person whose bedroom it is should decide that? My kids play and do homework in their bedroom.You almost have to insinuate that the person saying the LEDs don't work for them are somehow deranged, rather than ordinary human beings who can identify if something is unsatisfactory for them.As for me, I have deployed LEDs all over my home and they have performed well in some circumstances and poorly in others, and no, generally the retrofits have proven inadequate. At temperatures that don't kill elcos, you simply can't dissipate heat by radiation, and so the retrofits are dependent on convection, and that rules out an important swathe of potential retrofit applications. I think they'll crack this nut eventually, most likely by eliminating the most heat-intolerant parts of the lamp, not by berating customers.

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2019, 06:08:42 pm
content: Thermal cycling of good old unleaded solder can kill it too.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2019, 09:45:04 pm
content: Quote from: djacobow on February 08, 2019, 04:03:02 pmWhat I see are people making blanket statements that lamps with these specs don't exist when in fact they do. Need 100W equiv? Philips makes a 1600 lumen A21 LED bulb, they're available at Home Depot among other places and they work fine, I have one in one of the few applications I have for such a bright lamp.Quote from: djacobow on February 08, 2019, 04:03:02 pmNo need to get new fixtures, there are retrofit bulbs that will tolerate most types of existing fixtures, for example these are rated for use in fully enclosed fixtureshttps://creebulb.com/60-watt-replacement-soft-whiteI have some of the previous generation in small enclosed ceiling globe fixtures and have yet to see a failure.There are many poorly designed LED retrofit bulbs out there, and many that work well in some types of fixtures but are not appropriate for other types. It's not as simple as it used to be where you'd go out and buy a pack of bulbs of a given wattage and they would just work, but bulbs that work are available for a majority of applications, it's not as if they don't exist or have not yet been developed.And for those really specific applications you can still get incandescent bulbs, or bulbs containing a small halogen capsule which are marginally more efficient than a standard incandescent, enough so to get around the energy regulations.Also yes I will concede there is some arrogance, but also I see the same attitude as pops up in nearly any EV-related thread of "Well it doesn't work for my use case so it's a silly idea that is completely pointless all around and will never work" or "but what about this edge case?". Or the old "I tried a 99 cent unbranded Chinese bulb and it crapped out after a week so LED bulbs are all junk thought up by some kind of liberal conspiracy!"

author: jmelson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2019, 10:50:07 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on February 08, 2019, 09:45:04 pmYup, I'm a little late to the party. I did make 4 custom LED retrofits (detailed in earlier posts) but have now been replacing all my CFLs with LEDs as the CFLs expire. I usually get 3-5 years out of the CFLs, depending on usage. Bathrooms seem to be really HARD on CFLs due to the humidity. It is still too soon to know how well the commercial LED "bulbs" will do, but I've probably got a dozen installed now, and NONE have failed. Some have likely been in place 2 years or more. A number are in base-up fixtures, so that seems to make the electronics run hotter.Jon

author: timelessbeing
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2019, 11:37:41 pm
content: Quote from: djacobow on February 08, 2019, 04:03:02 pmYep. I encounter that a lot in this forum. If you take moderate position on something, you immediately get slotted into the camp that is the polar opposite of their opinion. I think some people just like hearing the sound of their own voice.

author: timelessbeing
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2019, 11:54:22 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on February 08, 2019, 09:45:04 pmWhat I see is someone who has a reading comprehension deficiencyQuote from: djacobow on February 08, 2019, 04:03:02 pmBingo. Glad you understand now.Quote from: james_s on February 08, 2019, 09:45:04 pmLiterally nobody said this. You're mincing words.Quote from: james_s on February 08, 2019, 09:45:04 pmGeez I'm so picky for wanting to light my living space to suit my needs which, by the way, didn't use to be a problem. To me it is a downgrade. Sue me.Quote from: james_s on February 08, 2019, 09:45:04 pmYou're not gaining any credibility with fabrications like this. I specifically mentioned branded bulbs.Quote from: james_s on February 08, 2019, 09:45:04 pmAnd here perhaps your motivations are peeking through. Is this a political issue for you?

author: djacobow
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2019, 04:45:42 am
content: Quote from: james_s on February 08, 2019, 09:45:04 pmThat's just the the thing "equiv" doesn't just mean the same output. If it doesn't mean "able to fill the same role", then it is something less than equiv.Quote from: james_s on February 08, 2019, 09:45:04 pmAll of the bulbs I have tried that have failed were purchased at HD. These were not crap brands like "Feit" (though I have tried that, too.) I've had failures inside 1 year with Cree, GE, and Philips.Quote from: james_s on February 08, 2019, 09:45:04 pmI was not aware of this bulb, but I was in HD today and saw it. Om your recommendation, I bought two and will revive this thread in a year to report back.Quote from: james_s on February 08, 2019, 09:45:04 pmNo, it's not as simple as it used to be, and it seems the bulb manufacturers are not doing much to help. For example, here is a photo I took today of a GE product:Spot the section where they mention it can't be used in an enclosed fixture? It's there.Quote from: james_s on February 08, 2019, 09:45:04 pmA few points:- first, the problems do not all come from 99 cent unbranded Chinese bulbs. And in fact, probably all the bulbs are Chinese in origin- your edge case is my normal case. For your EV example, I drive crappy, utilitarian cars, like a Honda Fit, which I bought new for $16.5k about ten years ago. It can go 250 miles on a tank and gets about 20 locally and 40 on the freeway. Is there an EV that fits that niche? Not even close. Is it an important niche? To me it is. Are there awesome EVs? Of course there are. Will there be an EV soon that fits my mission profile? Dubious.- the lightbulb industry just so happens to have a documented history of criminal conspiracy:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoebus_cartel

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2019, 11:24:12 am
content: QuoteA lot of western companies produce nowadays in China.The big difference is that they supervise these factories, have strict requirements about the brand components they should use, etc.Your statement says nothing. Still as I already stated even brand producers are nowadays selling cheap products that have dubious lifetime because the market demands those products.For some applications as an attick where you come twice a year that might be very acceptable. But a lot of people make the mistake putting these bulbs in sensor switched fixtures where they might well get 5000 switch on/offs or more per year. They are not designed for that.If you want that you should as an exaple use a Dali sensor that sends a Dali message to a Dali driver that is mains powered on 24/7 and is always in low power standby.But as said earlier hard to explain to grandma Jones, hell it is obvious from this topic that even EEs sometimes have no clue and start brabbling all kinds of nonsense from their statistical experiment with n=1.

author: timelessbeing
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2019, 10:11:12 pm
content: All bulbs I buy at my local home improvement store should be able to withstand being switched on and off, many times per day. I think that is a reasonable expectation.

author: 001
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2019, 10:13:22 pm
content: is it sort of holywar?

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2019, 10:56:05 pm
content: Quote from: timelessbeing on February 09, 2019, 10:11:12 pmYup up to 10000 times or more if the manufacturer says so on the package because you know what on switching rectified mains pulse does with the bus capacitor.Was it better with conventional bulbs? No they lasted 1000 hours and a lot less if you switched it on at peak if the AC wave. I had some conventional bulbs blow in a few months, bad luck few times switch on at peak.There are softstart designed for this purpose.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2019, 12:28:12 am
content: Photonicinduction did a good video on this. The corn cob style LEDs seem to be the worst.https://youtu.be/ikAql0nbSfs

author: djacobow
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2019, 01:08:52 am
content: Quote from: Kjelt on February 09, 2019, 11:24:12 amOh, FFS no. If you have to explain how a particular lightbulb works to Grandma Jones, then you have failed. Your lightbulb has failed. Your product is a failure and it deserved to fail. It's as simple as that.Lightbulbs are not esoteric engineering products intended for use by experts. It's lighting, as in the first or second household application of electricity. People have expectations for how a lightbub will perform and nobody who doesn't have a particular interest in lightbulbs should have to build up a working knowledge of the constraints and limitations of a particular trechnology or implementation in order to make decisions about it, especially if the product is being marketing as retrofit.I don't see the relevance of the rest of your post. Do incandescents fail if they are switched too much? Sure. But people know that. And the incandescent manufacturers aren't making any new claims. Their basic claim is the same as ever: this lightbulb works like that last one and costs $0.80. Will any old bulb work in an attic that where it is used for 30 minutes a year? Sure. In fact, there is absolutely no reason to put an LED there since the total lifetime energy use is negligible.You make an interesting but ill-conceived point about n=1, that people should not form judgments from their very limited experience. Though this is true, I've got some news for you: that's indeed how they do it. They're not going to consult government reports on lightbulb performance. They are not going to sift through Consumer Reports lightbulb reviews. They are not going to build up a spreadsheet collecting data from their friends and neighbors. They are going to buy one bulb off an endcap at the local hardware store for $8 under the promise that it will save them some money in the long run, and they will screw it into the next available socket. And if that bulb fails in a year or two, they're going to remember that outcome, and that will be the end of $8 bulbs for that person for a decade or more. (or until they have no choice)That is how people make these kinds of decisions. Economists call this "bounded rationality" and contrary to being a sign of stupidity or laziness, it is a reasonable way to make decisions in a complex world where you don't have the time or resources to know about everything. Given this behavior, LED manufacturers would be smart to design product that are extremely unlikely to fail in the promised time. This means, for example, that if you want to make a claim of 20 years life, you might want a product with an MTBF several times that. It also means not shoving the restrictions and limitations of the bulb into a blob of fine print on the side of the box where it serves primarily to protect the company rather than inform the consumer.Finally, in my case, I have had 7 LED failures in 6 sockets in just over 7 years. It's more than large enough N to know that there is something amiss between the label on the package and reality.PS -- I don't like that I have to play the "anti LED" guy in a thread like this. I actually like LEDs and want them to work. There is a reason I keep buying them. They have qualities that I rather enjoy and in fact, I prefer the light output of them over incandescent. There is not a single incandescent bulb in my house today and only a few fluorescent remain in fixtures that have build in ballasts and are in locations that are difficult to access for replacement. But I have also been burned by LED retrofit bulbs repeatedly, and man, I can not I not stand fanboy bullshit from people who will tell me to my face that my direct experience is irrelevant or that worse, that I would not have this experience if I wasn't so damned stupid.

author: texaspyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2019, 05:02:38 am
content: My house has over 300 bulbs... most are recessed ceiling can type lights or spotlight type bulbs painting walls / artwork. Around 10 years ago I looked into doing a LED upgrade... it would have cost $14,000 dollars. Then I found an Ebay seller offering what were large (20-50 piece) lots of apparently big-box store returns for dirt-cheap prices. Almost all were made for Sylvania and others by Lighting Science Group. It turned out the price of those cheap LED bulbs was very close or lower than to the price of halogens at the time. I wound up paying around $1000 plus another $400 dollars for some specialty high CRI bulbs for the kitchen, my office, and some artwork spotlights.Anyway, I replaced all the incandescents with LEDs. I had been replacing at least one incandescent a week and if one of the PAR20 halogens in the kitchen died it often took out a few other bulbs and a $30 dimmer. I kept a closet filled with spare incandescent bulbs. Over the last 10 years I have have replaced a grand total of 3 (count 'em... three) LED bulbs and 0 dimmers.My LED bulbs are old-school models with massive, very heavy heat sinks. Their light output is around 70 lumens per watt. Their light output exceeded the incandescent / halogen bulbs that they replaced. I have had one running 24/7/365 for 10 years. I have a sophisticated integrating sphere setup that can measure light output and color temperature. Periodically I check that bulb for light output... it is still virtually the same as when I first installed it... LEDs seem to be quite a bit more stable over time than originally predicted.The problem with newer LED bulbs is that they have been cost reduced to the maximum using flimsy heat sinks and lower cost components.An interesing thing happened with the Sylvania PAR20 LED bulbs... they were recalled. I shipped over 100 back and got brand new replacements for my used bulbs.

author: 3roomlab
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2019, 05:09:20 am
content: Quote from: texaspyro on February 10, 2019, 05:02:38 amhow many watts are these 10year life par20s LED?

author: texaspyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2019, 05:15:04 am
content: Quote from: 3roomlab on February 10, 2019, 05:09:20 am8 watts, 550 lumensI also have 45 Phillips 10 watt, 500+ lumen MR16 bulbs that replaced 50 watt halogens. They have a small fan in them! I expected to have noise and lifetime problems with them but I have never had to replace one and cannot hear the fan from 6" away.My lightbulb changing stick is a very lonely tool...

author: 3roomlab
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2019, 06:07:52 am
content: did you know how heavy was the heatsinking for those? like how much you think it weighs in your hands? 0.3kg ?a fan that last years, the only one in my house that does that is KDK, that wont fit in a lamp

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2019, 12:02:30 pm
content: Quote from: djacobow on February 10, 2019, 01:08:52 amThere are and always have been tens/hundreds of different bulbs with not only different wattage but also different shape, reflectors, angles, papplications.The lightbulb book from 2005 is 400 pages with different bulbs, so when you buy a certain fixture in the past there was a certain shape and max. wattage bulb that had to be used.Not that much has changed, except the number of companies making these bulbs at the moment has exploded.QuoteThe same for led bulbs, if it is not on the package that company is a con. All my Philips and Osram bulb packages state nr of hours and nr of switch/on/off , and that was never on any conventional light bulb package, i can tell you that much. So the information is better, BUT it also relies on the fixture you put it in, that is all I am saying and you can't print a booklet with 50000 fixtures and application now can you ?QuoteNo it is even worse, a couple of persons with a few experiences will put a review online that this brand and bulb is crap because it failed within 2 years and a million people read this and accept this as the negative truth, while the million of other people where the bulb still works as expected do not post a review online and state, hey it still works !QuoteThose were made 8 years ago, 11W led (then equivalent to 75W conventional lighting) with 400 grams of metal coolingfins surrounding it, could last 25+ years in any fixture with two cm of room around.Very good thermal and electronic design, BOM was around $15 selling price $60 and almost nobody bought them: too expensive while it is still a bargain compared to conventional bulbs.That is what I am telling you, consumers don't want to pay lot more money for their bulbs so the manufacturers have to follow the cheaper, less lasting commercial bulbs.The US was worse than Europe, in Europe the margins 5 years ago were pretty good on led bulbs, in the US (probably due to higher china import competition) the margins were even then low.QuoteI don't know which brands you bought at which quality but with so many failures I would investigate other causes like quality of mains (spikes?), fixure (enough cooling), on/off switching times etc and after the results base your next purchase, this could well be that certain led bulbs are not suited for your particular application.You can keep ranting against the manufacturers which could well be they sold you crap for cheap priceQuoteI am not saying you're stupid, if you were than you would continue as a lemming buying the same led bulbs and experience the dozens of failures over and over again without doing a proper investigation of the cause of failure, experimenting with different kind of bulbs and seeing if some other brands or designs work better in your situation.What I keep on telling people is that Led lighting is actually best off in a low DC environment and that mains environment is pretty crap for leds because they have to rectify the mains and that high DC has to be brought down again to normal led voltages (efficiency loss and heat) around 24-60V depending on the string of leds. And if you're string of leds is large (higher voltage) the chance is higher one of the leds fail. So assume all leds have the same statistical chance of failure, the chance of the bulb failing due to a failing leds is n times the amount of leds in the string.Some modern leds fail closed then with current based drivers it is ok but cheap drivers are not current based and the remaining voltage falls over the remaing leds increasing the failure.So if you think that I am a mains led bulb fanboy: absolutely NOT! Look at professional led lighting: all drivers that are digitally controlled current sources, with fancy protocols.

author: texaspyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2019, 05:38:17 pm
content: Quote from: 3roomlab on February 10, 2019, 06:07:52 amI suspect the PAR38 bulbs weigh around 0.6 kg and PAR20 bulbs weigh at least 0.3 kg, but I have not weighed them. It cost me around $40 to ship those recalled PAR20 bulbs back.

author: schmitt trigger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2019, 05:55:53 pm
content: Purchased 3 Toshiba bulbs 10 years ago. They are my home's exterior night lights, turned on automatically via a photocell. Have operated reliability every single night.Can't recall whether they were made in Japan or elsewhere.OTOH, some of my recent purchases have lasted only a few weeks.I have kept some of the worst offenders, to make a teardown comparison vs the Toshiba. As soon one of those burns out, of course.

author: jmelson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2019, 06:38:32 pm
content: Quote from: djacobow on February 09, 2019, 04:45:42 amWOW, a LOT of disclaimers! At least it didn't have something about wearing safely glasses or an arc flash suit when changing the bulb.But, next year they will probably add that.Jon

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2019, 06:57:07 pm
content: Quote from: jmelson on February 10, 2019, 06:38:32 pmHealth and safety: very important!https://youtu.be/vXok6_BjhXM

author: OwO
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 11, 2019, 07:26:32 am
content: Quote from: Kjelt on February 10, 2019, 12:02:30 pmWell, the reality is that very few people are in the market for a $60 11W light bulb. Here for that price you can get an entire ceiling-mount fixture with LED strips and power supply included (and not shitty ones either) as well as delivery and installation, 100W, bright enough for a big living room (most I've heard complain about it being too bright), dimmable, and excellent thermals.Part of the reason why China crap is regarded as low quality is because retailers push the cost down too much and pocket way too much profit. To sell $8 bulb the retailer will source a $3 bulb, well no shit it's going to be garbage. I like my rooms really bright and it would be simply uneconomical to fit LED bulbs to desired brightness even at the $8 price point. The 11W bulbs have less efficient drivers than the big 100W panel, and I would probably need 12 bulbs to cover my room.

author: schmitt trigger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 11, 2019, 05:13:23 pm
content: Quote from: OwO on February 11, 2019, 07:26:32 amIs not only electronics. Actually the clothing industry is far, far worse.How can a designer's blouse cost US$80 or more, when it is made in Vietnam or Bangladesh?But returning to the topic at hand.I've found a trick which greatly enhances LED lamp life, specially if they are used in enclosed luminaries: Use a dimmer (set to a fixed position) to limit the lamp's power to 70 or 80% of rated power. As discussed in a previous thread, I have used a light and a power meter, and found that 30% power reduction is only about 15 to 20% light reduction.

author: texaspyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 11, 2019, 06:12:56 pm
content: BTW, a "fully enclosed" fixture is like a recessed ceiling can with a cover over the place where the light comes out. An open-front ceiling can is not "fully enclosed". All my bulbs are in open-front fixtures.Another story... somebody built a multi-million dollar house down the road. They installed custom, high dollar, low voltage LED lighting everywhere. A year or two later the drivers starting failing and the company that did them went out of business. They spent around $40,000 replacing all those fancy-schmancy fixtures. Moral of the story... use fixtures that have screw-in retrofit bulbs.

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 11, 2019, 06:22:54 pm
content: Even if you don't trust the AC/DC transformers enough to put above your ceilings, you can still do 12V AC transformers and G4.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 11, 2019, 07:25:35 pm
content: Quote from: texaspyro on February 11, 2019, 06:12:56 pmNo.......buy your fixtures from reputable billion $ revenue A brand fims that don't go out of business and have many engineers with lots of experience.

author: texaspyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 11, 2019, 07:30:24 pm
content: Quote from: Kjelt on February 11, 2019, 07:25:35 pmThe company in question was a subsidiary (or spin-off?) of one of those well respected giga-dollar companies...

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 11, 2019, 08:36:44 pm
content: Name?Those companies have dealers and installers.

author: OwO
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 12, 2019, 03:45:35 am
content: Quote from: Kjelt on February 11, 2019, 07:25:35 pm.. or just do your due diligence and make sure the fixture uses generic power supplies and LED strips when you buy.EDIT: and avoid overpriced crap. Price != quality. The two need to be judged separately, and the lowest price option that meets your quality standards should be chosen.

author: texaspyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 12, 2019, 04:32:56 am
content: That particular disaster was part of a "smart" home system... all those fancy pants fixtures were linked to a home control networky thingy... fixtures all had custom power/interface board. People that are too lazy to get up and flip a light switch deserve such disasters...Also, the fixtures were rather butt-ugly.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 12, 2019, 08:04:45 am
content: Yes the home network control stuff out there is rather nasty.Most are closed systems where you need a degree to use the (unavailable for non installers) software in such a way the system is properly configured for all controllers and slave-devices.Then when a controller fails and needs replacement an installer can spent a couple of hours reconfiguring the system, and besides the multi 100$ for the controller another multi 100$ labour is added to the final bill. Not for normal consumers, but most are good quality (Lutron, Dynalite and the sorts).