Cars, the chip shortage and old tech - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: ledtester
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2021, 05:54:05 pm
content: Interesting perspective:https://fortune.com/2021/09/17/chip-makers-carmakers-time-get-out-semiconductor-stone-age/

author: Benta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2021, 07:20:12 pm
content: Quote from: ledtester on September 18, 2021, 05:54:05 pmYes, and not particularly well researched.There is a huge difference between Consumer and Automotive semiconductors.Consumer devices are expected to last a couple of years, and do not need to be especially reliable or EMI resistant.Automotive parts need to live for at least 20 years and be able to withstand a very rough environment (temperature, vibration, moisture, EMI, power spikes etc.).There's a reason that car companies qualify parts not only at a device level, but also at technology node (geometry, packaging etc.).A bricked iPhone or a crashed laptop will not get anyone sued. A malfunctioning airbag system could cost a company billions.The comment about "I’ll make them as many Intel 16  chips as they want,” is arrogant to the point of ignorance.

author: m98
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 20, 2021, 09:07:49 am
content: It's not like its only microcontrollers who are in short supply. But why aren't they starting to offer some AEC-qualified ARM or RISC-V microcontrollers for killer price points at unlimited availability on their own then?

author: peter-h
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 20, 2021, 11:32:27 am
content: I am happy to see the myth of JIT (just in time) purchasing exploded.JIT is just a fancy name for the powerful customer screwing the less powerful supplier into keeping stock (at no extra cost) and drop feeding it to the customer.Will anything change? I doubt it. Screwing suppliers is the #1 corporate muscle flexing activity, to show everybody how good and clever and aggressive you are. You can't screw customers, and screwing employees is tricky nowadays.

author: Stray Electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 20, 2021, 02:48:15 pm
content: Quote from: peter-h on September 20, 2021, 11:32:27 amTHIS is what got the car companies into trouble and very little else. Sure Covid made it worse, but any serious disruptions such as China possibly closing the South China Sea to other countries, a fire in factory, a labor strike at a mine, a strike in a shipping port, or any other event could have had the same effect. JIT might work when you're relying on a large US based company for fraction of it's output but in dealing with unstable countries and with overseas shipping and when you're consuming the majority of a factory's output and there are no other producers, it's not reliable enough source of supply.Ford, in particular, should have seen this coming since they went through this after the 2011 Fukushima tidal wave destroyed the only factory anywhere in the world that produced the pigment for Ford's extremely popular Tuxedo black paint and delayed production for over a year.As someone already pointed out, these are not consumer grade chips and neither Intel or any other chip maker is going to make MAJOR investments in chip foundries unless their customer (i.e. the car companies) are going to commit to buying very large numbers of chips over a very long time. Apple and some other companies appear to have made these kinds of long term commitments and still have a stable chip supply but the auto makers are still trying to get by by playing each of their suppliers against each other in order to keep their costs low and their profits high.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 20, 2021, 03:01:13 pm
content: Quote from: peter-h on September 20, 2021, 11:32:27 amNo. It is just the ones that didn't understood JIT well enough that got hurt. Toyota, where they invented JIT, isn't affected that much for example.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 20, 2021, 03:55:53 pm
content: Quote from: m98 on September 20, 2021, 09:07:49 amBecause that is 1 line from the BOM. Often times not the issue.Take a look at this picture, and count how many black stuff is on it.And it is often times not the ECU. You see all those fancy turn signals with LED rows, that are individually controlled? Those are individually driven LEDs. Combined with the daytime running light. CAN controller, dozens of drivers, power management, load dump protection, ESD protection, light sensor and all these parts are all needed to make a part.Back in the day this was a relay and a piece of wire in some glass.

author: m98
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 20, 2021, 08:58:15 pm
content: Quote from: tszabooYou might've missed the first sentence. I just wanted to point out that even chips that could potentially be manufactured on Intel's process nodes are also currently unobtanium.

author: cortex_m0
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2021, 12:48:47 am
content: Quote from: m98 on September 20, 2021, 09:07:49 amThey = Intel?Intel probably don't see microcontrollers as a business they want to be in. You remember their "Quark" brand a few years ago? It was a Pentium-type x86 (no FPU) core running at 32 MHz that sold for about US$2.70 in 1k quantity in 2015.I was using Atmel ARM chips at the time, and tried to figure out an application where that those Intel Quark chips looked competitive... and couldn't find one. The fact that Intel was Johnny-come-lately to the MCU world didn't help.

author: sandalcandal
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 21, 2021, 07:30:38 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on September 20, 2021, 03:01:13 pmLessons learnt from the 2011 earthquakes also probably helped.

author: station240
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 21, 2021, 07:47:26 am
content: https://www.theregister.com/2021/08/04/china_probes_automotive_silicon_distributors/Quote

author: Bicurico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2021, 09:50:03 am
content: To me shortness of supply often comes hand in hand with a too small price the purchaser is willing to pay: if Volkswagen, as mentioned in the article, is not able to sell a $50.000,00 car due to lack of a $0,50 electronic component, I wonder if said component would be available at $1,00.Kind of reminds me when companies say that they cannot find labour. How about paying a decent salary and offering a decent work environment?

author: eti
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 23, 2021, 07:26:17 am
content: Cars did and still can work perfectly well without any silicon. All this “smart” junk is not necessary to fire up an internal combustion engine. Just make cars without it - it is a MECHANICAL device.

author: dmills
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 23, 2021, 10:55:08 am
content: And an engine is perfectly viable without ANY electrics never mind electronics, had one like that on a boat.Compressed air bottles to start, then mechanical injection pump with a rack operated by a mechanical governor, did just fine.Basically the politicos could fix the problem for the car industry by simply telling the relevant department to dust off the construction and use regulations from say 1975 and make them current...Yea, fuel efficiency would suck, and London (and LA) would wind up looking a little hazy (Oh and airbags would probably not be a thing), but you can build vehicles that way.Come to think of it, even an airbag is possible, mass and buckling spring as a sensor, a metal azide fired by the buckling spring, then shock tube up to the charge, probably be more reliable then some of the modern ones to boot.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 23, 2021, 11:32:55 am
content: Quote from: eti on September 23, 2021, 07:26:17 amExcept it isn't practical to make a purely mechanical engine to meet modern emissions limits and safety standards (e.g. ABS) at a sensible cost.And car customers expect all sorts of convenience gadgets, so no car without them would sell.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 23, 2021, 11:41:18 am
content: Quote from: cortex_m0 on September 21, 2021, 12:48:47 amHow can you say that about the company that invented the 8042, 8048 and 8051 microcontrollers? These are likely the most sold microcontrollers ever up to this day. For example: The 8048 was used as the keyboard controller in every PC until USB took over.If you mean that Intel has missed the 16 bit and 32 bit microcontroller market, then you are very right though.

author: chindi-ap
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: October 12, 2021, 08:10:17 am
content: Started a design in the middle of this pandemic. Used mostly China branded components (some datasheets in Chinese). China processor modules, external UARTs, IO expanders, transceivers. It's like a manual car design instead of a late model automatic

author: bitwelder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2021, 08:57:54 am
content: Recently Elon Musk said about how Tesla might got less affected by the chip shortage: "We were able to substitute alternative chips, and then write the firmware in a matter of weeks," and "It’s not just a matter of swapping out a chip; you also have to rewrite the software."https://www.theverge.com/2021/7/26/22595060/tesla-chip-shortage-software-rewriting-ev-processorAsanyword from Musk has to be taken with a grain of salt, how would you say such a statement can be true? If he's talking of some accessory system, maybe ok, but if it's about some primary circuits related to the actual car driving system, wouldn't any change require a lengthy safety re-certification process?

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2021, 10:21:30 am
content: Quote from: bitwelder on October 12, 2021, 08:57:54 amThey just pulled out the good old tool from the shed:It's a corner-cutter.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2021, 10:57:06 am
content: Quote from: bitwelder on October 12, 2021, 08:57:54 amTotally plausible.IMO Tesla is more vertically integrated than other automakers. There are hundreds of mcus and peripherals in a car, many not safety related

author: MT
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2021, 01:03:28 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on October 12, 2021, 10:57:06 amFor a luxury car , but for average working class Manchester John's 2019 Ford Fiesta?

author: Miyuki
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2021, 05:31:07 pm
content: Quote from: MT on October 12, 2021, 01:03:28 pmIn cars are plentiful off small controllers to limit the huge amount of wires (silicon is cheaper than copper) and to reduce weight and get better gas mileageTesla is one example of using cheaper chips/designs in things like doors and resulting in the door handle malfunction and similar issues.Other manufacturers have it also, for example, Renault had "faulty" dashboards that will die after about 3-5 years. Microcontroller memory issue. That is something not making a good record and people will tell it to others. I think now they check better what controller they use.Plus today even cheap cars have things what you dont think about but are to make driving easier and safer. (if we do not count things like ABS) Automatic lights and wipers for example.It can be fun to drive a car from past times, but you really do not want it as a daily driver. And I have some with an ancient engine with a mechanical distributor ignition and purely mechanical automatic transmission

author: MT
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2021, 06:21:14 pm
content: Plentiful is "some" but surely a Ford Fiesta dont have "hundreds" of MCU's!https://www.bloombergquint.com/business/chip-shortage-forces-carmakers-to-strip-out-high-tech-featuresFrom article:Peugeot is going back to old-fashioned analog speedometers for its 308 hatchbacks, rather than use digital versions that need hard-to-find chips. General Motors Co. said it built some Chevrolet Silverado pickup trucks without a certain fuel-economy module, costing drivers about 1 mile per gallon. Nissan is cutting the number of vehicles with pre-installed navigation systems by about a third.In at least one case, carmakers are asking a major chipmaker to send microcontrollers that don’t meet standard specifications, a person familiar with the matter said. Those sub-standard chips wouldn’t jeopardize safety essentials, like brakes, the person said, but they could mean in-car entertainment or emissions monitoring systems are more likely to malfunction in extreme weather.

author: Miyuki
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2021, 06:30:21 pm
content: Quote from: MT on October 12, 2021, 06:21:14 pm"analog speedometer" does not need much fewer chips than a fancy display, it all goes over canbusand mechanical gauges are abandoned three decades agobut it is easy today, you can shove any dashboard into a modern car with just a minor firmware tweak, they might have some stocks from other model

author: VK3DRB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2021, 08:58:26 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on September 23, 2021, 11:41:18 amMaybe today, but certainly not historically. Intel microprocessors were the only game in town for many years since IBM adopted the 8086/8088, until AMD and a few others got into the business. Intel made a fortune out of the IBMPC and IBM clones.I remember when an Intel Pentium In-Circuit Emulator cost around $30K in today's money. Today, I can get a decent real-time debug tool with break-point control for the cost of some take-away food from the local Fish 'n Chip shop.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2021, 09:08:24 am
content: Quote from: Miyuki on October 12, 2021, 06:30:21 pmThat may also be about avoiding an LCD (and driver). A customer of mine has been quoted >1 year leadtime for some special LCD monitors

author: MT
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2021, 03:21:36 pm
content: Quote from: Miyuki on October 12, 2021, 06:30:21 pmThey dont meant "mechanical gauges" but an electronic one like a 90ies solution a tiny 8/16bitter with air coil drivers and CAN or they could even go NOSCS8190 etc both as a replacement of the big LCD and dedicated 32bit MCU +memory and all. It's cheaper, no software tweak and the car can be shippedand sold instead of sitting on the shelf half built waiting for unobtanium like Ford done did with some of their models. But it would be interesting to see whatPeugeot actually did put in the 308.Reely old school still electric!Ultra 80ies old school retro mood with VFD old school, or something!

author: cortex_m0
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2021, 03:11:29 am
content: Quote from: VK3DRB on October 13, 2021, 08:58:26 amYes, I did mean lately. Intel mostly got out of the MCU market in the mid 90s if I remember right, although I think they kept manufacturing legacy products for many years.