Happy world standards day, USA! - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: babysitter
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2023, 08:23:16 am
content: The effect of standards in daily life should not be underestimated. Not only does a common volt put the pointer on a certain point at the scales of our multimeters, get the right paper or screw size in the shop.Your computer doesn't crash when the neighbour is using his drill.The syringe does fit to the needle.May ANSI and NIST have a nice celebration today.All other proper ISO members will celebrate on 14th .Might have something to do with 25,4 hours per imperial day?BRBabysitterhttps://www.ansi.org/events/standards-events/world-standards-dayhttps://www.worldstandardsday.org/about.html

author: abeyer
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2023, 09:40:14 pm
content: Quote from: babysitter on October 12, 2023, 08:23:16 am

author: CosteC
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2023, 02:22:34 pm
content: Quote from: abeyer on October 12, 2023, 09:40:14 pmI was hoping that it was joke. Nope. USA has it different than rest of the world... Not surprising.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2023, 03:39:16 pm
content: If you are referring to the US, that would be a "conventional" day, not an "imperial" day.The imperial gallon (4.55 liters), formerly used in Canada and other remainders of the British Empire, differs from a US conventional gallon (3.79 liters)

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2023, 04:27:39 pm
content: I am not aware of any use of 4.55L gallon measure here, everything is 3.79L around. Maybe industry uses it in some applications

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2023, 04:44:43 pm
content: Before Canada went metric in 1975, the standard gallon used in gasoline pumps in Canada was the "Imperial Gallon", which was, indeed 4.55 liters.US drivers crossing the border noticed this; I am older than 50 years.In the US, present law generally requires metric units on retail sales, with "conventional units" allowed equal billing on the label.My cereal box this morning states "NET WT 24.1 OZ (1 LB 8 OZ) 685 g" on the front label, in one type size.Note the miniscule "g" conforming to international standard spelling for grams.Note that my post said "formerly used in Canada", perhaps before your time.

author: metrologist
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2023, 08:46:23 pm
content: Standards are so important that everyone should have a set of their own.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2023, 04:37:08 am
content: I keep a good set of Jo blocks in my workshop (inch calibration).

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2023, 06:15:25 am
content: In many aspects of life, standards are just pieces in the grand game of market manipulation and "wealth extraction".Just like patents, that originally were intended to ensure it is worth bringing new inventions into the market, are nowadays mostly used to block competitors from competing on the same market. "Patent portfolio" is the modern day equivalent of seeding a field with caltrops, really."Standards portfolio" under your own control, are the equivalent of nuclear weapons on market control.

author: metrologist
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2023, 11:09:01 pm
content: They come in all shapes and sizes, and serve different porpoises.In addition to three good SAE gauge clock sets, one which was NIST calibrated used for inspecting one job, I have a large metric set. Then there are the pin gauge sets...But those aren't the standards we were looking for.

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2023, 11:12:44 pm
content: Quote from: metrologist on October 16, 2023, 08:46:23 pmThe great thing about standards is you have so many to choose from.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2023, 11:13:45 pm
content: Nevertheless, regardless of what standards others look for, it is important to uphold standards.

author: boggis the cat
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2023, 02:05:58 am
content: Quote from: TimFox on October 17, 2023, 04:37:08 am25.4 mm calibration. The inch is defined as 25.4 mm.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2023, 03:32:39 am
content: Quote from: boggis the cat on October 20, 2023, 02:05:58 amNo shit, Sherlock. The US inch has been defined as 2.54 cm since 1959. Prior to that, it was defined by 39.37 inch = 1 meter. A slight difference.With the current definition, my 1 inch Jo block is exactly 25.4 mm, by definition.

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2023, 06:25:59 am
content: Inch (1" = 2.54 × 10-2m) is only a name for an useful length unit, just like Ångström (1 Å = 10-10m).The problems occur when peopleassumethe units, or standard, being used. Which is why I like to tout the benefits ofdimensional analysis, and marking units when working out formulae, reserving say angle brackets for this purpose.For example, if diameter \$D = 2\text{ in}\$, circumference \$P \approx 160\text{ mm}\$, because \$P = \pi D\$. Try to work that out without keeping the dimensions, and even if you do get it right, anyone else checking your math will have a hard time following your logic. Personally, I like to mark the last steps as \$P = 159.5929068\text{ mm} \approx 160\text{ mm}\$, so that the chosen precision (three significant decimal digits) is easily inferred.You confuse standards or the related conversions, and you get oopsies like the Mars Climate Orbiter.When you mix in politics with the standard, you get stuff like the US nutrition label units: 1 cup = 240 milliliters, 1 tablespoon = 15 milliliters, 1 teaspoon = 5 milliliters, 1 fluid ounce = 30 milliliters, and 1 ounce = 28 grams (FDA reference).

author: EC8010
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2023, 09:06:57 am
content: When I was a kid, I had a book of seven figure log tables and it defined 1" = 24.3978mm (UK inch). I could barely machine to a thou at the time (school lathes), but the number stuck in my mind. Along with 4.43361875MHz +/- 1Hz.

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2023, 10:07:32 am
content: Quote from: EC8010 on October 20, 2023, 09:06:57 amThat was only true up to 1964, though. Technically, the British Standard Institution set 1" = 25.4mm in 1930 ("international inch"?); but 1 yard = 0.9144 m = 3×12×25.4 mm was only adopted in 1964 in the UK (although recommended by the Commonwealth Science Congress already back in 1946).Is PAL colorburst specified at ±1 Hz, or is 4.43361875 MHz = 4433618.75 Hz used in something else too?

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2023, 02:13:39 pm
content: When the US went metric in 1959 (but forgot to tell anyone), the slight re-definition of the inch to 1 inch = 2.54 cm was done to agree with the British 1930 definition.Small change, but high-precision machining could tell the difference.

author: EC8010
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2023, 03:36:34 pm
content: Quote from: Nominal Animal on October 20, 2023, 10:07:32 amYes, it was PAL subcarrier. I can't imagine it was used for anything else as the number was very deliberately awkwardly related to line and field frequency to minimise the noticeability of the PAL dot pattern. BBC1 colour subcarrier was locked to a rubidium standard, so we had continuous subcarrier available on a jackfield where I worked, enabling me to use it to calibrate my frequency counter. I suppose you could call that a "something else". I was most disappointed when PAL transmissions stopped and I could no longer calibrate my counter. Radio 2 occupied 200kHz long wave and was also rubidium locked. A lot of amateurs were unhappy about the change to 198kHz (which was far less easily divided at the time). These days, I calibrate my frequency counter (the same one) from GPS-derived 10MHz.Thanks for the information about the inch. Whoever knew? And I certainly never knew the US went metric!

author: mendip_discovery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2023, 04:48:43 pm
content: For a bit reading have a look at this,https://www.nist.gov/publications/20-degrees-celsius-short-history-standard-reference-temperature-industrial-dimensionalI like the idea of standards in the sense that we are all working the same way. This was a game changer when Joseph W. started to record his standard as prior to that all nuts an bolts were made to fit each other. No bolt would fit another nut etc.But I do get annoyed that you have to pay a over priced fee for them. They still want £150 for a standard from 1961.Some when they are updated are made rather silly and impractical just becuase they had some industry leaders involved and they want to sell a new bit of kit i am talking if the torque wrench standard. The have decided to make the standard two parts and there is a now a conforming and a calibration, and the calibration is really involved and is just as daft as FAIR.Ironically the standards don't have a standard for how they are laid out. Some are just damned difficult to read.

author: EC8010
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2023, 05:05:30 pm
content: Standards are blindingly clear compared to patents.

author: mendip_discovery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2023, 06:21:13 pm
content: Quote from: EC8010 on October 20, 2023, 05:05:30 pmI think that is done on purpose so the lawyers get to play games with interpretation. I do find the patent system seems to be broken in a few countries. Just as bad as the copyright stuff.

author: Rax
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2023, 07:31:10 pm
content: Quote from: metrologist on October 16, 2023, 08:46:23 pmYes! As a global firm standards author - but rule breaker in my private life... - yes! yes! yes!...

author: Rax
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2023, 07:35:44 pm
content: No one yet mentioned "US feet" vs. "international feet." Breaking large site projects all over the world.(Luckily, most of the would outside the US is metric...)

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2023, 08:58:16 pm
content: Before 1959, the US inch (as I stated above) was ever-so-slightly different from the UK or "international" inch.After 1959, the US retained the "US Survey Foot" from the old definition, since otherwise every single land tenure document in the entire country would have to be changed.This year, they yielded to pressure from internationalists to deprecate the US Survey Foot, but no one has offered to re-write the deed to my small property in Chicago.Prior to this date (except for the mile and square mile), the cable’s length, chain, fathom, furlong, league, link, rod, pole, perch, acre, and acre-foot were defined in terms of the U.S. survey foot.seehttps://www.nist.gov/pml/us-surveyfootThis has little to do with measuring any objects, but is relevant to surveying: locating objects over long distances from each other.Now that the US is metric, our overlords expect surveying to be done in meters.

author: metrologist
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2023, 12:14:56 am
content: Quote from: TimFox on October 20, 2023, 08:58:16 pmThe US is metric?

author: Smokey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2023, 12:42:52 am
content: How am I the first person to post this:https://xkcd.com/927/

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2023, 01:18:34 am
content: Quote from: metrologist on October 21, 2023, 12:14:56 amYes, but foreigners were not notified.Current US law requires metric units on retail sales labels, with customary (not"imperial") units allowed in equal-size type.Why do foreigners think otherwise? Have they never bought breakfast cereal in the US?

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2023, 01:35:32 am
content: Quote from: metrologist on October 21, 2023, 12:14:56 amQuote from: TimFox on October 21, 2023, 01:18:34 amLOL I buy 1 kg rolls of PLA from Atomic filament in Indiana (it doesn't come from China), my bottle of Tums are 1000 mg tablets, the soft drink bottles are 500 ml ... OK I'll stop at that for now.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2023, 02:07:33 am
content: The silly comment about the US not being metric was not posted by me.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2023, 02:08:18 am
content: Quote from: Smokey on October 21, 2023, 12:42:52 amRecently, two of us posted this cartoon simultaneously to another thread.

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2023, 02:13:41 am
content: Quote from: TimFox on October 21, 2023, 02:07:33 amFixed.

author: luudee
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2023, 02:19:56 am
content: I didn't write this, but love it ! Please don't flame, it's supposed to be a joke !"In metric, one milliliter of water occupies one cubic centimeter, weighs one gram, and requires onecalorie of energy to heat up by one degree centigrade—which is 1 percent of the difference betweenits freezing point and its boiling point. An amount of hydrogen weighing the same amount has exactlyone mole of atoms in it. Whereas in the American system, the answer to ‘How much energy does ittake to boil a room-temperature gallon of water?’ is ‘Go fuck yourself,’ because you can’t directlyrelate any of those quantities."Cheers,rudi

author: metrologist
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2023, 02:45:28 am
content: Yeah, but...Lumbergasolinemilkbeefa letter size sheet of paperyour weightThe metric measure is usually parenthetical or ancillary, if at all.What is a primarily common metric unit in the US other than a 2-liter bottle of coke?

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2023, 02:48:05 am
content: Quote from: metrologist on October 21, 2023, 02:45:28 am9mm ammo

author: metrologist
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2023, 07:01:26 am
content: Methinks 9mm is an imported caliber.

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2023, 07:36:10 am
content: I find the caliber of many standards unimpressive, with little impact in real life applications.

author: mendip_discovery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2023, 09:05:37 am
content: The UK is metric but we hold on to some oddities.The mile being the the biggest culprit.I did find it funny chatting to a roofer and he wanted some timber, 4m of 6" x 2". I think it's going to take some time before things like this are gone becuase it takes generations to change. Plumbing is still stuck on, and that us a legacy thing, everything they connect to is imperial so they have to keep awareness.

author: DavidAlfa
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2023, 09:41:29 am
content: Also applicable tothat other countryusing stones, tea-spoons, pints, foot, oz, also driving in the wrong side of the road (Not that one with 90% of deathly fauna and lots of kangaroos) ...

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2023, 10:12:07 am
content: Quote from: mendip_discovery on October 21, 2023, 09:05:37 am6" × 2" lumber (aka timber) is neither 6" wide not 2" thick, though. It's typically 5.5" × 1.5" or 140mm × 38mm.

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2023, 11:00:51 am
content: Quote from: metrologist on October 21, 2023, 07:01:26 amLOL I answered your question -Quote from: metrologist on October 21, 2023, 02:45:28 amNow the answer isn't what you now decide suits you.

author: The Soulman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2023, 12:11:09 pm
content: Quote from: mendip_discovery on October 21, 2023, 09:05:37 amThose six by two inches obviously convert to 140 and 38 millimeters for planed wood.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2023, 12:28:46 pm
content: QuoteOr that you can by a pint of beer but not a pint of shandy

author: mendip_discovery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2023, 01:03:36 pm
content: Quote from: themadhippy on October 21, 2023, 12:28:46 pmThat should be obvious, who in their right mind would go into a UK bar and order a shandy. ;-)As we often remind a friend from over the pond, "Everything is bigger in America, except the pint".

author: babysitter
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2023, 05:33:46 pm
content: That was entertaining, many thanks.ANSI and NIST goofed in standard day, thats clear.EU still suffers a bit from non-metric stuff too, like threads in both mm and inch.But the USA really had some bad luck with metrification - just look up poor Joseph Dombay.BRbabysitter

author: abeyer
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2023, 06:34:01 am
content: Quote from: babysitter on October 23, 2023, 05:33:46 pmAfter reading his brief bio on wikipedia, I have to wonder if the USA just got caught up inhisbad luck.Quote

author: dietert1
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2023, 10:56:07 am
content: Quote from: metrologist on October 21, 2023, 07:01:26 amWe should be happy they are used to volts and amperes. Imagine somebody measuring voltage in "westons" and current in "microlightnings". Wood technology creeps in though when it comes to making PCBs..Regards, Dieter

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2023, 02:12:51 pm
content: On a happier note, I was pleased that theEconomistused the correct terms in a recent short article about beer cans in the United States, instead of confusing "imperial" with "customary"."Each one contains 19.2 US customary fluid ounces. That is 568 ml in metric measures. But more importantly it is 20 Imperial fluid ounces."(Economist, Oct. 21, 2023, p 26)