Olivetti Programma 101 - Worlds first PC.   - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: wilfred
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 12, 2014, 02:04:11 am
content: /.

author: pickle9000
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 12, 2014, 03:42:02 am
content: Here is some basic history, and an English video is embedded. I learned something new, thanks.http://royal.pingdom.com/2012/08/28/the-first-pc-from-1965/

author: Homer J Simpson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 12, 2014, 04:35:32 am
content: Great posts. I had no idea on this either.KT

author: GK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 12, 2014, 06:25:42 am
content: I don't think that their magnetic cards could be considered the precursor to the floppy disc. For example magnet tape had been used for data storage since the late 50s I believe. Also the magnetorestrictive/wire memory was already an established technology. And unlike as suggested in that documentary, the 101 engineering team did not succeed in stuffing IBM mainframe computing power into a desktop box - the 101 was a very basic and limited stored program computer. It only had 240 bytes of memory. That wire memory was also very slow - much, much slower than magnetic core memory. The 101 was put into production in 1965 - the same year as DECs PDP-8, also a "desktop" computer. The PDP-8 was bigger and a lot more expensive, but a far more sophisticated and superior machine.

author: pickle9000
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 12, 2014, 06:38:05 am
content: Quote from: GK on July 12, 2014, 06:25:42 amFor the cards, I would say a step along the way. As for the rest, I didn't get to see the show but I was impressed with the accomplishment, the price in particular.

author: VK3DRB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 12, 2014, 06:39:22 am
content: Dave! Please do a teardown of the Olivetti Programma 101!These Italians were real pioneers - and should be as famous as Steve Wozniak, Albert Einstein and Justin Beiber.I actually used one of HP's rip-offs of the Programma 101 at RMIT in the 1970's. I loved programming that machine in line numbered BASIC.It shows how time and time again there is so much lack of vision amongst bureaucrats and executives in companies. I have seen it first hand, great ideas being scoffed at. I formally suggested to IBM to put a volume control on the PC and a headphone socket, but was told there is no market or future in such an idea. Stupid bastards with no vision.I was present at the very first IBM internal announcement of the PC - before it was announced publicly around 1982. I remember clearly the marketing exec saying IBM decided to venture in a tiny market called the hacking market. They had no idea what they had created and neither had I.One mistake in the documentary. IBM invented the Personal Computer. Before that they were called microcomputers or minicomputers or other things; never Personal Computers. IBM trademarked the name Personal Computer.

author: GK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 12, 2014, 06:54:23 am
content: Quote from: pickle9000 on July 12, 2014, 06:38:05 amIt wasn't a very good and informative documentary, IMO. Mostly emotionally charged/biased historical revisionism. For example it was also suggested to the viewer, with some considerable effort, that the engineering team of the 101 had been the first to develop/pioneer the concept of a high-level programming language - BS to the n-th degree. FORTRAN was developed by IBM in the mid 50s, just for one (not the first) example. Compared objectively with other computing machines of the same period, the 101 had a price tag simply commensurate with its technical sophistication.The 101 engineering team was visionary in the sense that they foresaw a market for a cut-down, simplified computer built to a low cost (and the competition soon cottoned on and followed suit), but that was about it.

author: VK3DRB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 12, 2014, 07:26:47 am
content: Quote from: GK on July 12, 2014, 06:54:23 amI don't recall them saying they invented the first high level language on the machine. It was more to do with the innovations from the 101 team like the cheap piano wire memory and the magnetic card and he physical size of the machine and the missed opportunity by Olivetti executives.Not high level languages, but the IBM 082 and 0083 sorters could high speed sort alphanumeric data - programmed in effect by strategically aligning a brush on a brass contact roller by the operator. Low to high, high to low, split sorts etc. Few people have ever seen these machines except for EDP people and IBM engineers. These machines were still in use up until the mid 1980's in Australia.I am delighted to have been trained to diagnose and fix faults on these old iron dinosaurs sold by IBM. I would like to find one to buy, but the only ones left to my knowledge are in museums in the US. I bought a 1976 Gottleib Pioneer pinball machine so I can still enjoy diagnosing and fixing electromechanical faults... and have fun playing the pinny too.

author: GK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 12, 2014, 07:35:35 am
content: Quote from: wilfred on July 12, 2014, 07:27:08 amWell, that is a high-level language, despite the actual lack of usage of the term "high-level language". And the documentary DID convey the impression that the 101 engineering team was pioneering in this regard........ After the English narration categorically stated that the 101 team had "invented a new language" I was eagerly awaiting them to explicitly name this language so that I could look it up! However no mention was forthcoming.

author: GK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 12, 2014, 08:06:00 am
content: Quote from: wilfred on July 12, 2014, 07:47:04 amDude, whatever language the 101 actually used is besides the point. There was a whole section to the documentary, even including cute animations, conveying to the layman that (supposedly prior to the 101) computers had been programmed exclusively in mysterious and inaccessible machine speak. There was no mention of prior art (as in simplified or "high-level" languages) whatsoever.

author: pickle9000
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 12, 2014, 04:37:40 pm
content: Here is the manual. It's a pdf click on the first page to download.http://www.oldcalculatormuseum.com/m-op101man.htmlPage 41 has a program sample printed on a card. Rather than it being a "high level" language I'd say it's using mnemonics. As for the producer of the documentary, I have not seen it but as with any it must sell. The producer will either screw the facts in to make it salable (spin), fit his/her perspective (spin) or the facts will actually tell the story.It really is a very impressive machine when you consider the minimal construction.I can't help thinking that without a frame of reference how hard was it to use? It's a fairly small manual but it's all there.I haven't come across a schematic but if anyone does post a link.

author: deephaven
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 12, 2014, 05:24:41 pm
content: Oh wow. My very first job (c 1970) was at an antenna manufacturer. They made antennae from long wires through to microwaves. They had a production line for custom made yagis and used a program on the Programma 101 to calculate all the dimensions. One day they confused inches and cms and got rather larger than expected antennae off the production line.

author: chickenHeadKnob
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2014, 01:17:57 am
content: For historical completeness I would point out that the 8088 based PC was not IBM's first desktop computer. In 1975 they produced the 5100, a custom 16 bit processor and 64k memory in a somewhat heavy "lugable" form factor like the osborne 1, but not as portable. It ran basic and APL from ROM/Tape and made a nifty programmable scientific calculator, but was ungodly expensive so almost no one bought it.Still a decade behind the olvetti, but the same kind of niche market.pic:

author: GK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2014, 01:58:16 am
content: Quote from: wilfred on July 13, 2014, 01:48:36 amWhatever you say.

author: GK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2014, 02:13:15 am
content: Quote from: pickle9000 on July 12, 2014, 04:37:40 pmFacts only appear to be of secondary importance. Just the first few lines of the promotional blurb for this crap from the SBS website is enough to cause any historic computer buff to pull his/her hair out:In the early sixties, to talk about computer science meant talking about enormous calculators that were seen as pure science fiction to the vast majority. In 1963 the IBM PDP-1 occupied an entire room, cost 100.000 dollars and was in few specialised laboratories. And while the world dreams about and fears this object of the future, in that small lab with tainted black windows, four pioneers invented the P101.Utterly ridiculous!Firstly, the PDP-1 was introduced in 1959. The 101 was put into production in 1965. 6 odd years is a LONG time in computer development. Secondly, the PDP-1 was build by DEC, not fucking IBM. Thirdly the PDP-1 isn't comparable to the 101, not only because of the time of development difference but because, even in 1965 the PDP-1, being a large main-frame computer, was still technically far more powerful than the 101. This is an apples to oranges comparison. Fourthly the PDP-1 didn't take up anything like "an entire room":http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PDP-1And lets not for get that the year the 101 was put into production the desk-top PDP-8 was introduced:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PDP-8

author: pickle9000
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2014, 03:02:06 am
content: @GK"Ancient Aliens" on the history channel?Need I say more...

author: GK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2014, 04:39:56 am
content: Quote from: wilfred on July 13, 2014, 03:54:40 amDo you think that the PDP-1 just magically poofed into existence on the day of its introduction?QuoteThe "thesis" behind the doco was more than that. These Pioneering 101 designers did not just build a cheap and rudimentary calculating machine for the masses, they miraculously stuffed the computing power of a whole mainframe machine into a desktop box, with a "new" computing language that everybody could understand. Having since read the operating manual of the 101 I am now even more dismayed with the doco over that last point. Now I have stated my objections to the documentary I am not going to continue to argue with you as it is a complete waste of time. You just keep making excuses for the most daft misrepresentations and oversights. However on just that one point of attributing the manufacture and design of the PDP-1 to the correct manufacturer, just how hard do you think it would have been to make the effort to fact check even to that level?

author: G7PSK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2014, 07:47:18 am
content: I used an Olivetti 101 programma at school in 1967, the school maths department was lent one by the UK office of Olivetti. We all had to write a program and run it, all the program steps had to be punched in by hand each time, I don't remember any magnetic cards, I do remember that I made it calculate Fibonacci numbers, but as it was not much more than a glorified calculator that weighs a ton it got pretty boring very fast. Shortly after the school had the 101 there was a recruiting visit by the navy and I got to talking to one guy from the RN about the 101 and he told me that they used it on submarines for navigation. I did not see another one of those machines until the late 80's when I went to an auction and there was one for sale, I put a bid in but it went for a silly amount of money in the end.

author: Dataforensics
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 13, 2014, 09:15:58 am
content: Quote from: G7PSK on July 13, 2014, 07:47:18 amAny chance the school was in Walthamstow? I went to one there in 1972/3, they stated they were the only school in the UK with a 101 at the time. I still have my issued magnetic card somewhere. However they also used a local tech college IBM 360 for which we had to punch the stacks of cards. My time there fired my interest in computers.

author: G7PSK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2014, 09:51:07 am
content: Quote from: Dataforensics on July 13, 2014, 09:15:58 am

author: VK3DRB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2014, 11:59:15 am
content: Quote from: chickenHeadKnob on July 13, 2014, 01:17:57 amI have done technical training at IBM on the 5100 and used to fix them to component level in many cases. In fact I had one in my house in 1980. They were a work of art.A switch at the front panel was to reverse the video on the screen, that is, black on white rather than white on black. It inverted the video drive signal. It was a feature that was to my knowledge never used because black on white in a low res video screen was useless - hard on the eyes and distorted at high brightnesses. The quality was as good as a TV used as a monitor on a TRS-80.The motherboard was really just a backplane, full of wire wraps and many layers of PCB tracks. I seem to recall there were 6 copper layers.... pretty good for those days. There was an array from small PCA's, like RAM, ROM, microprocessor etc. The tape drive was slow, but very reliable; much more reliable than the junk people like Dick Smith used to flog - anyone who had a System 80 will know what I mean. It was much faster than a stringy floppy, but rewinding a tap was like rewinding a VCR tape - slow! (If anyone knows what a stringy floppy was, you'd be showing your age.)The two languages were BASIC (Beginners All-purpose Symbolic Instruction Code) and maybe APL (A Programming Language) APL was definitely on the 5110 or 5120, but I think it was also available as a feature on the 5100.The machine was used for small businesses. Quite often programmers would be hired to write specific applications for customers.