What's the real reason that laptop batteries are made not-accessible? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Ben321
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2021, 10:07:00 pm
content: Same goes for phone batteries. I see no technical reason why they can't make batteries easily removable anymore. They say it's because it helps to make these modern slim computers even slimmer, but I don't see how that actually relates to it at all. I've always figured though it was so they could get more money from the customer, by charging them twice (or more) for the same computer. First the sale of the computer, and then any battery replacement. It's just a get quick money scheme for the company.But what if it was more than just that? What if it had something to do with fighting crime? Criminals these days have gotten really smart. Thanks to mistakes made by criminals in the past, and thanks to various news reports you can read online about how various criminals got caught in the past (as well as sometimes leaks that result in tech articles on tech websites actually explaining how certain forensic techniques actually work), modern computer criminals have learned a LOT about how to protect themselves. This includes all kinds of things like using strong passwords on everything, using VPN, encrypting their files, etc.One thing it seems criminals learned was that a computer or phone that you powered down from a menu option in the Windows start menu (or equivalent action for a cellphone) isn't actually shut down. It's simply put into a very low power mode in which even the OS isn't running, but it's not completely shut down. This means RAM memory is maintained in a powered on state so the physical RAM chips still store data from what you did while actually using the device, and some things I've read indicate that possibly even the GPS mode is enabled when the phone is supposedly powered down so it can still be tracked. As a result smart criminals started to remove the batteries from their phones when not in use. This keeps the GPS (in phones) from tracking them, and in about a minute (possibly less) the binary state of the transistors in the RAM chips is completely reset to 0, so no usable data left for the authorities to see what you had been doing on the computer.As a result, civic minded computer and phone companies realized this was a problem so they started making it harder for badguys to power down their devices so as to make it easier for law enforcement to catch badguys. Or possibly, law enforcement realized it first and went to computer and phone companies and asked (or even demanded, under threat of prosecution for the crime of "obstruction") that these companies change their hardware to make it harder for badguys to hide their crimes by simply removing the battery from their device.

author: Benta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2021, 10:30:32 pm
content: Never had a problem removing the battery from my laptop. What are you talking about?Seems like total tin-foil hat to me.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2021, 10:42:05 pm
content: Quote from: Ben321 on December 02, 2021, 10:07:00 pmThis is actually not true. Phones and computers do have a "standby" mode, of course, but if you switch them off, they are actually off.You are supposed to switch off your phone before replacing the SIM card, for instance, although the risk of harm if you don't is minimal.And for laptops, you have to power them off before opening the case to access or repair internal components.So I think you are completely barking up the wrong tree.

author: Ben321
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2021, 10:57:42 pm
content: Quote from: Benta on December 02, 2021, 10:30:32 pmIt depends on what laptop you have. Modern laptops have integrated batteries, that aren't even removable without special tools. Cellphones have had integrated batteries for a long time now.

author: Ben321
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2021, 11:11:51 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on December 02, 2021, 10:42:05 pmWhile computers do shut down completely as far as running in a user-accessible way, some components remain powered. If your laptop has an Ethernet port, it remains powered so as to be able to accept a power-on signal sent over the network. I'm pretty sure that the RAM in a laptop also remains powered when you shut it off. It gets written over with the next time you boot the computer, but it doesn't get cleared just because you went to the start menu and selected shutdown to turn off the computer. The only way to clear a laptop's memory is to completely remove its battery. And I've heard some claims on other websites that a computer's coin-cell battery (sometimes called a clock battery or CMOS battery) can keep the RAM powered as well, in order to maintain all of the data stored in RAM.Regarding cellphones, there's even more that's powered on when it's supposedly shut down completely. Every minute or so automatically (or alternatively when the power button is momentarily tapped manually) the screen will turn on dimly for a few seconds and show the battery status. I suspect it may also keep the RAM powered so that your phone's RAM doesn't get cleared when you power it off. And I know I've read claims that this partial power being used in a powered-off state also powers the GPS and possibly the cellphone radio in bursts, so that the phone's location can be tracked (either transmitted live over the cellphone radio, or saved to a system file for later retrieval by law enforcement, should the cellphone's user ever be so foolish as to do something that attracts the attention of law enforcement). If this is true, the only way to be sure that the cellphone isn't being tracked would be to remove the battery, but of course that isn't possible with any modern cellphones. Technically it's possible but, as I've seen in a cellphone battery removal YouTube video, the battery is usually glued in place with a special epoxy that can only removed by heating it to a very high temperature with a hot-air gun (which of course risks overheating and damaging various components in the phone that should not be heated, including the LiIon battery itself which can of course explode if it gets too hot). These batteries aren't designed to be removed except possibly by technicians working for the cellphone manufacturer who may have access to special solvents (who's chemical formula is a trade secret) designed specifically to dissolve that epoxy. And if removal of the battery is possible for a technician, it will cost the consumer quite a bit of money to pay them for the battery replacing service.

author: ogden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2021, 11:16:45 pm
content: Pouch batteries are not safe. Any protective case will add to everything- dimensions, weigth and price. Integrated batteries are easily replaceable for every slim laptop I have used. Phone is different can of worms I dont want to open, literally.

author: strawberry
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 03, 2021, 12:04:54 am
content: 10mA will deplete laptop battery in less than one month

author: fordem
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 03, 2021, 12:16:31 am
content: Quote from: Ben321 on December 02, 2021, 11:11:51 pmSeems to be a lot of paranoia here - my suggestion would be to get some hands on experience with the products and then think it through again.For what it's worth, I've spent much of the last thirty years or so as an "on site tech" providing warranty support for server & client computing products for the three biggest names in the business, and I've also done cell phones at some point along the way - I've watched the evolution of the hardware from the removable battery models in previous years to the internal battery models that are now in current production - it's all about the packaging - you can make a way thinner product by mounting the battery internally.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 03, 2021, 12:26:15 am
content: Quote from: Ben321 on December 02, 2021, 11:11:51 pmThat is not consistent with my observation of iPhones that I own (several generations from early to latest). If you power down an iPhone it becomes somewhat dead and will not respond. To start it up you have to hold down the power button for 5 seconds, or plug in the power cable. Doing so will cause it to boot up, which takes a few seconds to complete. Given that it has to boot up, there is probably very little that is active while it is powered down (I am not an expert in this, but it must at least be able to monitor the power button, or it wouldn't switch on again).QuoteActually, iPhone batteries are very easy to remove if you have the right tools to open the case. There is a special tab to pull that unzips the glue and then the battery just falls out. The problem with battery replacement in iPhones is not so much physical, it is in the electronics. The batteries are coded to the phone with an embedded serial number, and if the phone does not recognize the battery it will not provide full functionality.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 03, 2021, 12:28:08 am
content: Have you taken apart one of the computers that uses one of these slender built in pouch batteries? The battery fits like a glove and making it removable would add at least a few mm to the thickness of the machine. Now personally I would happily take a thicker laptop to make room for a nice beefy removable battery but slim and sexy is the fad these days. It makes no sense to me but it isn't a conspiracy. Likewise just look at the stupid obsession with making display bezels razor thin, it has got to the point where they're making displays with stupid notches and holes cut out of them for sensors and cameras just to make the bezel a few mm thinner. Computers and smartphones have reached mature commodity status and now it is form over function.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 03, 2021, 12:36:24 am
content: Quote from: james_s on December 03, 2021, 12:28:08 amI have one of the latest model Dell slimline laptops and it is easy to open the case and access the internals. The battery is replaceable and comes in two sizes, the larger size taking the whole width of the case, and a smaller size that leaves room for an optional second disk drive. To remove the battery you just undo a couple of screws and unplug the connector.I do agree that the obsession with making things too thin is a bit silly, and has one obvious downside of leaving less space for ports on the outside.

author: Stray Electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 03, 2021, 12:41:01 am
content: To answer the OP's question and not speculate as most here are doing; part of the reason for not making batteries accessible is planned obsolescence pure and simple. yeah, many of the people on this forum can open a cell phone or a laptop and replace the battery, but for 99% of the population once the battery dies, the owner's pitch them and replace them with a new one. The manufacturers can also point to other issues such as warranties and that the usermightinjury themselves trying to replace a battery but like the old saying says, "Follow the money".

author: 3roomlab
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 03, 2021, 12:54:35 am
content: Quote from: IanB on December 03, 2021, 12:26:15 amI remember reading this thread, the BMS reset problemhttps://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/experiences-with-ti-bq-management-ics-when-revelling-laptop-batteries/25/The security of the batteries are possibly better than a crypto?

author: cortex_m0
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 03, 2021, 12:55:03 am
content: Quote from: Ben321 on December 02, 2021, 11:11:51 pmDon't tell me what you've seen claimed on "other web sites". This is the EEVblog forum. Get your test kit out and prove it with data.

author: ledtester
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 03, 2021, 01:59:28 am
content: Quote from: Stray Electron on December 03, 2021, 12:41:01 amAlso manufacturers can get away with non-replaceable batteries because tech is changing so fast. A lot of people don't mind changing their phone or laptop every three years because the new models have a lot more to offer.I also read that Apple sells a lot of its refurbished phones in the developing world. Making parts harder to replace keeps them that much more ahead of the competition in those markets.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 03, 2021, 02:37:30 am
content: I don't really get why people say the iPhone battery is non-replaceable. I've replaced batteries in a handful of them and it has never required any heroics. It isn't planned obsolescence, it's a simple matter of aesthetics. They want to make a thin, sleek device without any external hatches or doors. Whether that is desirable to a particular user is another matter but that's the reason they do it, and given how well these thin sleek devices are selling and the number of manufactures who follow, it seems to be a sound business decision.

author: Ben321
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 03, 2021, 02:40:02 am
content: Quote from: Stray Electron on December 03, 2021, 12:41:01 amPlanned obsolescence means what exactly? That the company has no incentive to make it last longer, so they make it cheaper instead, and that inevitably results in it being less reliable so that it fails sooner? Or does it mean that the company builds things with intentionally sub-optimal parts and components with the specific intent of making the equipment fail early?And regarding batteries not being accessible, can't you just make the case as tight as possible around the battery, allowing the battery to still be removable but with a very tight fit? Why glue it in place so that it can't be removed? Sounds to me like computer manufacturers teaming up with law enforcement to make it harder for criminals to fully power off their device, and thus making it harder to hide any evidence that may have been present on that device which would be wiped out in the event of a full power off.Also I don't know if it's considered planned obsolescence if it can still be replaced by a technician. Planned obsolescence is usually only if it's absolutely impossible to replace, forcing the person to buy a completely new computer.

author: Ben321
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 03, 2021, 02:41:03 am
content: Quote from: james_s on December 03, 2021, 02:37:30 amI also like slim devices, but I prefer it if those slim devices have a back that can be removed, so that the battery can be removed.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 03, 2021, 02:47:35 am
content: Quote from: Ben321 on December 03, 2021, 02:40:02 amCan you give an example of even one computer or smartphone where replacing the battery is "absolutely impossible"? I'm not aware of one. Even devices that have the battery glued in it can still be replaced, even if you have to take it to a technician that is properly equipped. Some batteries are held in by adhesive, but they are not potted in epoxy, they can still be replaced. Most people who buy these sort of devices don't care if they can replace the battery themselves, there is no business reason to invest the engineering and materials in making a robust mechanism to make the battery easily accessible.

author: Ben321
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 03, 2021, 02:59:50 am
content: Quote from: james_s on December 03, 2021, 02:47:35 amSimplest design is to make sure that the farthest back component in the laptop's case (closest to the removable panel back panel of the case, so as to have direct access to it after the panel is removed) is the battery. How hard is that? Just make sure there are no PCBs between the battery and the removable panel. Not exactly a major engineering achievement. If it's NOT the closest thing to the removable panel, then you can be sure the companies are trying to deter the end user from trying to remove it.Regarding your statement about epoxy, it doesn't even need to be fully potted in epoxy. Just glue it in place with epoxy (much harder to remove than even super-glue). Only a few drops of epoxy are needed to glue the battery to whatever it's supposed to be mounted up against, and it's not removable by any conventional means. You literally need either a heat gun or some special solvent to remove that epoxy. You can't just pull hard enough to remove the battery with epoxy. Whatever it's epoxied to will break long before the epoxy itself breaks, if you just try to pull it out by brute force.

author: cortex_m0
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 03, 2021, 03:36:30 am
content: Quote from: Ben321 on December 03, 2021, 02:40:02 amBatteries wear out with charge and discharge cycles. If the battery isn't easily replaceable, a device with a weak battery becomes obsolete to most customers.In the more general case, we generally have a pretty good idea how to build truly durable things. But building a refrigerator that lasts 25 years isn't necessarily the optimal business strategy for Maytag or Samsung because customers tend to value low price over durability.QuotePlanned obsolescence succeeds when the consumer perceives an object is more economical to replace than repair. Technicians are expensive, especially if you want them to travel to you. So even if the repair ends up being something simple like a failed diode or swollen cap, the economical budget for a 3 year old $400 TV is pretty low.

author: Ben321
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 03, 2021, 03:55:58 am
content: Quote from: cortex_m0 on December 03, 2021, 03:36:30 amLike things build to military specifications, designed not only to last a long time but also withstand harsh operating environments. There's even documented MIL-STD (military standards) that define exactly how things need to be built so that they are acceptable for military use. Part of me wishes everything (even consumer goods) was built to that standard, but then I also realize that if it was there would be so many people who wouldn't be able to afford it.

author: BrokenYugo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 03, 2021, 04:17:07 am
content: The explanation with the fewest assumptions is usually correct, IDK why people want a laptop that doubles as a cake knife, but they clearly do and packaging a LiPo in a user safe and serviceable package certainly hampers that, which people also seem fine with. If that weren't the case used ThinkPads and other enterprise grade laptops one can easily service wouldn't be such a great bargain. I've personally tried talking ordinary people down that path, their eyes glaze over and they go buy some consumer trash that's junk in 3 years for the same money.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 03, 2021, 04:20:08 am
content: Quote from: cortex_m0 on December 03, 2021, 03:36:30 amThat is not planned obsolescence, that is cost engineering. Planned obsolescence is engineering that has no other function than to deliberately limit lifespan, for example a timer that bricks something after a specified number of uses, or a system that is tied to a remote server for no reason than to be able to disable it.You have said it yourself, customers tend to value low price over durability. Cutting corners to align with what customers value is not planned obsolescence. They are not making these things fail so people have to buy another one, they're making them as cheap as they can while still lasting long enough.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 03, 2021, 04:22:26 am
content: Quote from: Ben321 on December 03, 2021, 03:55:58 amThat is an understatement. I don't know exactly what a military grade laptop would cost but I would guess at least $20k.

author: cortex_m0
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 03, 2021, 04:37:19 am
content: Quote from: james_s on December 03, 2021, 04:20:08 amPlanned obsolescence is a special case of cost engineering.Quote from: james_s on December 03, 2021, 04:20:08 amNo, that is fraud (unless it is advertised as being time limited).QuoteNo, that's a time-limited license. So long as I can continue paying the subscription fee to keep using my gizmo, nothing is being made obsolete.Quote from: james_s on December 03, 2021, 04:20:08 amI'd consider this a concise definition of planned obsolescence.

author: ogden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 03, 2021, 04:42:29 am
content: Quote from: Stray Electron on December 03, 2021, 12:41:01 amHmmm... For some unknown reason no company can come-up with phone having user-replaceable battery to dominate market? Most likely it's because Lizard People are programming whole humanity through chemtrails to buy products manufactured in their factories and earth obviously is flat?

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 03, 2021, 06:34:11 am
content: Quote from: cortex_m0 on December 03, 2021, 04:37:19 amThere are a many users of various inkjet printers and multi-function devices that would like a word with you.We have ink cartridges that stop working after a certain number of hours, whether they still contain ink or not.We have scanners that stop working unless full ink cartridges are installed.We even have printers that stop working after a certain number of hours because "the waste ink sump is full".I quickly stopped using an inkjet printer I owned when every time I switched it on it would squirt large amounts of valuable ink into the "head cleaning sump" before being ready for use. I paid for that ink. Why is the printer deliberately wasting it?

author: cgroen
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 03, 2021, 08:45:52 am
content: Quote from: IanB on December 03, 2021, 06:34:11 amTo get you to buy more ink(I abandoned ink printers too, nothing beats a laser in "cost pr sheet" )

author: ogden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 03, 2021, 03:16:14 pm
content: Quote from: cgroen on December 03, 2021, 08:45:52 amLet me guess - you abandoned color inkjet for monochrome laser printer and call it achievement? For those who power-on their printer one page per week no matter what color it is, most likely cheap laser printer is best choice. Others would want to do their decision wisely. FYI volume printing is clearlyinkjet business.

author: cgroen
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 03, 2021, 03:18:46 pm
content: Quote from: ogden on December 03, 2021, 03:16:14 pmNope, I abandoned inkjet for a full color laser with 4 cartridges, the black one gives me around 8 to 10.000 pages.

author: coromonadalix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 03, 2021, 03:34:34 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on December 03, 2021, 06:34:11 amyou have some samsung printer who will blow a fuse resistor in the fuser unit to make you buy a new one, even if you change the part the printer count will redo that .... if not resetted properly

author: ogden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 03, 2021, 04:08:36 pm
content: Quote from: cgroen on December 03, 2021, 03:18:46 pmFunny you do not mention any models. Please be more informative.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 03, 2021, 05:33:28 pm
content: Quote from: cortex_m0 on December 03, 2021, 04:37:19 amYou don't get to redefine a word to mean what you want it to mean, regardless of what you consider, you are just wrong. Planned obsolescence is planning obsolescence, period, designing something to fail with the express purpose of spurring people to buy a new one, not making something as cheap as possible in order to compete with all the other stuff that is made as cheap as possible. My comment about being tied to the licensing server refers to the fact that that server will be shut off at some point and the device will then stop working.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 03, 2021, 05:40:02 pm
content: Quote from: ogden on December 03, 2021, 04:08:36 pmI did the same thing, originally I got a used Xerox Phaser 6100, then about 14 years later I replaced it with a HP M254W. It's brilliant, it prints superb text and very nice color photos too, not quite as nice photos as a good inkjet but good enough and on ordinary paper, not that expensive coated stuff. An added bonus is they don't run and smear if they get wet. It has a built in duplexer so it can print both sides without manual intervention and it can sit for months without use and then print a perfect page on the first go. I paid about $250 for it a couple years ago and I'm still using the toner cartridges that came with it. I would never even consider going back to inkjet.

author: cgroen
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 03, 2021, 05:56:20 pm
content: Quote from: ogden on December 03, 2021, 04:08:36 pmOh, I'm very sorry, I hope my answer comes quick enough for youInkjet was some Epson one (can't remember which one), laser is a Canon MF720C

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 03, 2021, 08:44:08 pm
content: Quote from: Ben321 on December 02, 2021, 10:07:00 pmI really take issue with what you said there...Perhaps criminal use that, may be. Criminals eat too - that doesn't mean we should stop selling food.Today's phone/pc has become a tracking device and spying device. They (big tech and government) already know who knows whom, and who yourrelatives and friendsare. They know where you go, what you buy and where you buy, they know what church you donate to, and who your doctors are.For those privacy minded people, and I consider myself one, I shut down my stuff and I remove the batteries whenever possible. I am no criminal. Last time I broke the law was more than 10 years ago for snow-route parking as I was not expecting snow that day. Before that was a speeding ticket about 30 years ago.If phone/technology companies are indeed civic minded and do care about the well being of their customers, they would make machines not just withhardwareoff switchesfor the entire machine, but alsoindividualhardwareoff-switchesfor WiFi, Bluetooth, Microphone and Camera.One need toprepare for what they say they would do, but prepare for what they could do as well. Think about Amazon Side walk, that is a known one. They are using your private broadband as there own, fully funded by you. At least Amazon made it known. I am pretty sure Microsoft and Google probably are doing or thinking about doing the same thing, that we don't know (yet)...

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 04, 2021, 02:37:42 pm
content: Quote from: Ben321 on December 03, 2021, 02:40:02 amIn practice it means, "Manage the service life of the device".There isn't a product in the world that doesn't have some kind of expected service life... ranging from one-time use to decades or centuries!In the case of phones, you can expect 2 OS updates and security updates for 3 or 4 years. The battery is designed to (just about) cope with this. Most phones are definitely expected to be obsolete/junk by the end of that kind of time frame...

author: ogden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 04, 2021, 03:07:59 pm
content: Quote from: cgroen on December 03, 2021, 05:56:20 pmYou managedNo doubt laser printers are much more dependable, must be default choice for business/office. Inkjets are cheaper, thou may clog and surprise you when least expected, they need more care, regular printing. 2100-page black cartridge for Canon MF720C cost as much as Epson Ecotank CMYK refill65004000 page set *and* brand new replacement head.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 04, 2021, 03:32:00 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on December 03, 2021, 04:20:08 amDoing planned obsolescence by making the battery uneconomical to replace has an element of 'plausible deniability' about it... the consumer cannot easily identify who is to blame for his/her predicament, and will generally just pony up for a new device.A select few will choose the more economical choices that still exist (i.e. phones with headphone ports, SD card support, replaceable batteries) but these models are not marketed as high end phones! There is a big target market of consumers that are willing to overpay for "renting" a device for a few years, as long as they get to feel they are on the leading edge...

author: cgroen
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 04, 2021, 04:25:52 pm
content: Quote from: ogden on December 04, 2021, 03:07:59 pmPhewTrue, I had a "not too cheap" (around $1300) EPSON inkjet, one of the really PITA features of it was exactly that if not used often, it would "dry out" and clog, so when you had to use it, you could see some "multi million dollar" drops of ink going to waste just to clean it. To be fair, the EPSON did (much) better pictures, but I used that maybe only 10% of the time, else it was "the usual stuff", schematics etc. Oh, it also did A3 which I sometimes miss on the laser. But not the cost of the ink, I don't miss that

author: ogden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 04, 2021, 06:40:25 pm
content: Quote from: cgroen on December 04, 2021, 04:25:52 pmRight. I learned it hard way long ago when left my UltraChrome pigment ink Epson photo printer unattended for few months. Now when I know that *pigment* heads needs care/maintenance - I can live with that. You just include inkjet head replacement into your planned operational costs same way you do with laser printer waste toner tank replacement expenses. Yes, not only inkjets do waste ink, laserjets waste their toner as well (rolf).

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 04, 2021, 07:46:36 pm
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on December 04, 2021, 02:37:42 pmWell it is impossible to make something that lasts forever, and to some degree engineering for longer useful life is going to cost more money. Planned obsolescence is "Let's try to ensure the product stops working by this point in time", normal engineering is "Let's make sure the product lasts at least this long." The difference may seem subtle but there is definitely a difference. Most engineers are not going to go out of their way to make sure something fails. They may design something assuming a useful life of x years, but they will not be upset if it actually lasts 10 times as long. A design can be optimized for cost, lifespan, capabilities or other factors and it's always a compromise. It may be possible to build a mobile phone to last 100 years but it would cost so much that nobody would buy it, and they would end up getting replaced long before failing due to other factors anyway.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 04, 2021, 08:01:12 pm
content: It's not always the vendor to blame.Case in point: I have an iPhone 6 (2014), perfect condition, battery still at 92% capacity, nice slim form factor, decent display, just as good as when it was new.Unfortunately, it stopped getting new iOS versions because the processor isn't powerful enough to support all the latest whizz-bang features that have been introduced lately. That in itself is not a showstopper, but then app vendors started refusing to install their apps on older versions of the OS. That is the thing that actually makes the phone obsolete, the lack of support by app creators, not the lack of support by Apple.Also, consumers and the market are partly to blame for this, by demanding never-ending new features. Take iOS 15 for example. Compared to iOS 14, it is more complex, fiddly, and annoying to use, because it is starting to suffer from feature bloat. Things that in iOS 14 needed one tap, now start popping up menus and requiring many taps (I'm looking at you, "Do Not Disturb" mode). Life is too short to spend time configuring and organizing complex settings. OK if they are optional and hidden until you want them, but not when they force themselves on you.Oh well, rant over.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 04, 2021, 08:10:52 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on December 04, 2021, 08:01:12 pmI hate OS updates and the sooner they stop trying to push a new version every year the better. The problem is as you mention apps requiring the latest version. It drives me crazy that the app store will not let you install the last supported version of an app. I also really hate the fact that you cannot roll back. Several times I have been burned by a new version of an app that had a serious bug that I then had to wait for them to fix and release another new version. After that happened a few times I stopped updating anything at all. Now I check once or twice a year and see if any of the updates have anything I care about and then try to research what they may have broken or removed. In most cases I'd rather stick with the version I have than risk an update I can't roll back if I don't like it. I don't care about new features, smartphones are mature products, I really struggle to think of any feature I care about at all that has gone in since iOS 5 or 6.I also share your disdain for taking things that required a single click/tap and adding additional steps. It may not seem like a big deal to click one more time, but when you have to do it numerous times a day it really starts to drive me crazy. I resent companies doing things that make my life harder and/or take additional time from me.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 04, 2021, 08:12:27 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on December 04, 2021, 07:46:36 pmAgreed, and in the case of sealed-in batteries, they aren't actually going out of their way to make sure the device fails... they are, however, creating a barrier to replacing the battery that is sufficient to make it uneconomical to do so in many/most cases.Maybe we should think in terms of different flavors of planned obsolescence...PO Type 1: Device is coded / designed to become totally useless on a certain date or other terminating condition not controlled by the user/"owner", the only remedy is to purchase a new device when that condition is triggered.PO Type 2: Device is designed to be difficult/impossible to repair by anyone other than the manufacturer, the only remedy is to purchase a new device once out of warranty.PO Type 3: Device is designed to be difficult/impossible to repair by anyone other than the manufacturer, but the manufacturer does have reasonably priced remediation options (repair and/or replacement)

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 04, 2021, 08:22:55 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on December 04, 2021, 08:01:12 pmSadly, it is still the vendors to blame... I had an email exchange with an app author when the latest version of his app refused to install on the older (but perfectly usable) Android tablet I had laying about in the car.He explained that he would love to be able to support older versions of the OS, but that unfortunately developers like him have to agree to Google terms and conditions which includes NOT supporting OS versions over a certain age... he is outright prohibited from supporting older OS versions.Another issue with Android apps is that they stop working if the tablet is not connected to the Internet for a while. You get an error message, "App not owned" when you try to start it. Basically, it seems all the apps you buy on Android need to check in with the mother ship every so often, even after they have been installed! So I had to drag the tablet into the house and let it nuzzle up to Mother every so often, to keep the purchased apps working.This kind of stuff all makes me want to puke... - Basically, I have gone back to using a Windows tablet in my car, since - much as people hate on MS - they are nowhere near as bad as Google (just yet, at least).

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 04, 2021, 08:35:17 pm
content: Quote from: cortex_m0 on December 03, 2021, 04:37:19 amAnd you’d be wrong. james_s is exactly right about what planned obsolescence is and is not. His last sentence above is cost engineering.What you’re calling “fraud” isliterallywhat planned obsolescenceactuallymeans. Probably 99% of the times people cry “planned obsolescence!” do not actually meet the actual meaning, because true planned obsolescence is astoundingly rare. Cost engineering is NOT planned obsolescence!!

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 04, 2021, 08:43:18 pm
content: One issue, specific to smartphones and some accessories, is waterproofing. I think it’s a great thing that so many phones now are seriously IP rated, since the number of phones that succumbed to water ingress in the past was huge, generating tons of e-waste. But it’s exceedingly difficult, to the extent of being practically impossible, to make a user-replaceable battery compartment that maintains waterproofing properly. (Look at the maintenance instructions for underwater camera housings and you'll see what I mean.)And it’s categorically impossible to do that while maintaining the sleekness expected today. Even non-waterproof battery compartments are hard to do with such space constraints, but waterproof ones? Forget it, no way.So we are left with adhesive seals. But at least on iPhones, they’re fairly easy to replace. Apple stores, and authorized and unauthorized repair shops alike can perform an iPhone battery swap in 10 minutes, including replacing the sealing adhesive, so I don’t think it’s in any way reasonable to claim adhesive as justification for accusations of planned obsolescence.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 04, 2021, 08:47:46 pm
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on December 04, 2021, 03:32:00 pmBut the company most commonly cited in such situations, Apple, actually offers perfectly economical battery replacements. Go online, schedule a service appointment, bring in the phone or computer, and 15 minutes later you walk out with your device with a fresh battery installed (and a cleaning inside and out), for the same price of a battery for the models years ago whose batteries were user replaceable. (So considering inflation, the laptop batteries are actually cheaper now than years ago.)

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 04, 2021, 08:49:21 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on December 04, 2021, 08:10:52 pmI'd prefer to do that, but some app vendors prevent it. I have one or two apps that refuse to open until you update them to the latest version.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 04, 2021, 08:58:27 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on December 04, 2021, 08:47:46 pmYes, Apple has very enlightened policies in this area. For example, my wife insisted on a battery replacement for her ailing iPad. They simply gave her a brand new iPad (same model) for the battery replacement cost (less than $100). Apple appears to be not so interested in opening the sealed devices and replacing their batteries, with all the time, risks, and problems that entails... and managed to impress even an Apple skeptic like me!

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 04, 2021, 09:01:54 pm
content: We have had the "What is Planned Obsolescence" discussion many times...Wikipedia has a pretty reasonable definition that appears to be backed by good sources:In economics and industrial design, planned obsolescence (also called built-in obsolescence or premature obsolescence) is a policy of planning or designing a product with an artificially limited useful life or a purposely frail design, so that it becomes obsolete after a certain pre-determined period of time upon which it decrementally functions or suddenly ceases to function, or might be perceived as unfashionable. The rationale behind this strategy is to generate long-term sales volume by reducing the time between repeat purchases (referred to as "shortening the replacement cycle"). It is the deliberate shortening of a lifespan of a product to force people to purchase functional replacements.Planned obsolescence tends to work best when a producer has at least an oligopoly. Before introducing a planned obsolescence, the producer has to know that the customer is at least somewhat likely to buy a replacement from them (see brand loyalty). In these cases of planned obsolescence, there is an information asymmetry between the producer, who knows how long the product was designed to last, and the customer, who does not. When a market becomes more competitive, product lifespans tend to increase. For example, when Japanese vehicles with longer lifespans entered the American market in the 1960s and 1970s, American carmakers were forced to respond by building more durable products.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 04, 2021, 09:03:42 pm
content: Quote from: Ben321 on December 02, 2021, 10:07:00 pmQuote from: Ben321 on December 02, 2021, 11:11:51 pm1. Nonsense. Extra layers of housing add physical bulk. And see my separate reply above about waterproofing.2. Nonsense. RAM consumes power, enough so that phone makers weigh the RAM capacity vs the power use, since extra RAM would unnecessarily reduce battery life. A CMOS battery would quickly die if it had to maintain system RAM.Keeping RAM alive is power-hungry enough that many laptops have a “hibernate” mode where the contents of RAM are written to disk, so that the hardware can fully shut down, but resume afterwards as if it had been put to sleep.3. Wake-on-LAN and “lights off” system management do rely on special hardware, but those features are a) generally off by default; b) rarely used outside of large enterprise; and c) even more rarely used on laptops, because enabling them while on battery will severely reduce battery life. (Often, they’re configured to do it only when on AC power.) But regardless, this is special hardware in the Ethernet controller, which then essentially gets to push the power button to turn on the system. There’s nothing nefarious or mysterious about this.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 04, 2021, 09:09:00 pm
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on December 04, 2021, 08:58:27 pmThere are various circumstances where they do a device swap instead (like if the battery is not in stock, or a battery is swollen). In that case they give you a refurb unit, and your old one goes back to the depot for refurbishment, to become a refurb for someone else. The refurb process always includes a new display, housing, and battery, so they do appear brand new, though they are not. (Only when a model is absolutely brand new, so new that no refurb units exist yet, do they actually swap out using brand new ones.)But I assure you that when possible, the stores do a battery swap in your own device. I’ve done it a few times over the past few years with phones and my MacBook.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 04, 2021, 09:18:56 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on December 04, 2021, 08:43:18 pmSamsung Galaxy S5 has an IP rating of 67, meaning it can withstand a depth of 1 meter for 30 minutes.The S5 also came with a proper headphone port, SD card slot, and replaceable battery.I guess the ancient Eastern wisdom at Samsung must be something we simply don't understand in the West!

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 04, 2021, 09:24:56 pm
content: Another issue is the "coincidence" where all the oligopoly manufacturers drop headphone ports, SD cards, and replaceable batteries at the same time, so consumers have nowhere to go...Sooner or later, this is all going to be seen for what it is: a cartel, where all the participants benefit from the planned obsolescence as one happy family, as long as nobody steps out of line and makes longer lasting products...

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 05, 2021, 12:29:44 am
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on December 04, 2021, 09:18:56 pmWhile that is impressive, the unanswered question is how reliable the waterproofing is. I see two scenarios, and since I haven’t invested the time to see which path Samsung used in that model, I don’t know which it is:1. The battery connectors are sealed, and the battery compartment is outside the waterproof area, so when wet, some current can flow between battery contacts. Perhaps mitigated with additional gasketing around the battery connectors.2. The battery compartment is “dry”, so electrically optimal, but requires the entire battery compartment to be gasketed. Great when new, but even tiny amounts of dust on the gasket willseverelycompromise the water ingress resistance. Opening the battery compartment even once could be enough to make it leaky.The fact that Samsung didn’t continue with this approach makes me suspect that it was #2, and that there were enough water ingress cases to make it unviable. I’d be interested to know what the actual result was.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2021, 06:10:17 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on December 05, 2021, 12:29:44 amIt is method 2, as you suspected. I still use an S5 and I wouldn't trust it under water... but I do trust it in the rain, or on wet bar countertops, etc.!I would gladly give up an IP rating in exchange for a replaceable battery. I think I'm on my 5th or 6th battery in my S5... if it was glued in, the phone might well be damaged by now from being "unglued" so many times? - also, I am enjoying the 0.5TB storage on the SD card, and I also enjoy hooking the audio output into the "Aux In" on my car stereo. Sadly, there is nothing to attract me into buying a new phone, there are so many suckers lined up to buy the content-reduced new ones that the market for people like me is too small to care about!So, when the S5 finally becomes untenable, I will simply buy the cheapest Chinese phone (I like Xiaomi, but Honor will work too) since these cheap phones may be sealed and unrepairable, with no ports and no SD slots, but at least they are cheap to make up for it!

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2021, 06:16:20 pm
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on December 06, 2021, 06:10:17 pmI wonder why the batteries are failing so quickly? I replaced the battery once in my iPhone 4 before the phone got so slow due to software bloat that it was no longer viable to use. My current iPhone SE is still on the original battery although it's starting to get to the point where I'll be considering putting a new one in there sometime in the next year or so. That's one failed battery and one retired due to phone replacement in a ~10 year period.

author: Ice-Tea
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2021, 06:26:27 pm
content: Quote from: Ben321 on December 03, 2021, 02:40:02 amInside a laptop or cell phone, the battery case is the chassis. If you allow a pouch battery to be taken out of the chassis easiliy, you'll have to protect the fragile battery with an additional layer of plastic/case. In addition: no you can't make it fit tightly as batteries swell as they discharge.QuoteThat's a pretty poor argument as there *are* plenty of machines with removable batteries. If this was indeed a thing, "criminals" could simply bypass all these clever law enforcement types and pick out a laptop with a removable battery.Quote from: Ben321 on December 03, 2021, 02:59:50 amYou seem to assume theonlydesign achievement the engineers need to worry about is making the battery easily accesible. I'm guessing they may have one or two other goals on their checklist.

author: Ice-Tea
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2021, 06:27:52 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on December 06, 2021, 06:16:20 pmEver increasing charging speed?

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2021, 08:25:08 pm
content: 1. User replaceable batteries increase liability in the event of a destructive fault. If the user has to disassemble the device to change the battery, then more fault can be applied to them.2. Integrated batteries are less expensive.3. Integrated batteries encourage planned obsolescence.Quote from: james_s on December 06, 2021, 06:16:20 pmPouch batteries have a shorter life than cylindrical batteries because of their physical construction.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2021, 08:27:15 pm
content: Quote from: David Hess on December 06, 2021, 08:25:08 pmWhat does that have to do with this? Both of my iPhones use pouch batteries, just like the Samsung device mentioned.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2021, 09:05:17 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on December 06, 2021, 08:27:15 pmAnd as I mentioned earlier in the thread, I have an iPhone 6 from 2014 and it's original battery is still showing 92% capacity.I imagine to wear out a battery enough to need replacing you would have to charge/discharge it several times per day?

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2021, 09:26:19 pm
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on December 06, 2021, 06:10:17 pmI’m absolutely certain that IP ratings are a huge boon to both manufacturers and users, since without it, even small amounts of liquid ingress can ruin a device. As I said, this was a huge problem in the past.Ungluing doesn’t hurt anything. The adhesives are basically high tech tapes, die cut to form gaskets. You use gentle heat to make them pliable. For years now, Apple has secured batteries using adhesive strips similar to 3M Command tape: it has a pull tab on the side. Pull on it and the tape stretches out (many times its original length) and releases without damage. (You absolutely don’t want people digging at glue under a lipo pouch using a sharp tool, after all!)I dunno about micro SD slots, but fully waterproof headphone jacks exist. With that said, any car made within the last 10-15 years will play music digitally off the phone’s USB, ranging from basic iPod and USB Mass Storage support all the way up to modern CarPlay and Android Auto, both of which also exist wirelessly now. So the need to use an actual analog aux jack has completely passed.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2021, 09:28:24 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on December 06, 2021, 08:27:15 pmYou mentioned (modern) batteries are failing so quickly.Besides the construction, mass produced batteries are made to be as cheap as possible while meeting the minimum requirements. Common mass produced batteries only have a rated life of up to 500 cycles maximum, and many are less, which is way less than originally advertised for the technology. I found this out a couple weeks ago when looking for high cycle life 18650 cells.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2021, 09:29:31 pm
content: P.S. I actually wonder if people’s anger is based on misunderstanding what “glued in” actually means. Maybe they are thinking “epoxy” and “superglue”, when in fact almost all of it is advanced adhesive tapes. (If you’ve ever used 3M VHB tape, this is the class of product used.)

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2021, 09:35:38 pm
content: The battery in my cell phone is completely user replaceable. The back cover pops off with no tools, and the battery pops out. I changed it a couple months ago. It lasts maybe two years.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2021, 11:40:28 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on December 06, 2021, 06:16:20 pmI suspect what kills them for me is heat... the S5 gets glowing hot when using Waze in the car, and I use Waze many hours per week...Doing the math, the S5 is from around 2014. So changing the battery every 2 years would require at least 3 batteries to get to 2021...

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2021, 11:44:54 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on December 06, 2021, 09:05:17 pmI use Waze a lot in the car, and it is a total pig on power, and makes the phone baking hot to boot. The most recent battery I fitted is a massive external "piggyback" item with 6000mAh capacity, which is enough to run the S5 for a week - if you don't use Waze!I normally get 1-2 years out of a battery. I've recently adopted a new habit of only charging to 85% capacity, in an attempt to make the battery last longer, let's see how that works out...My wife also uses an S5 with a piggyback battery, and it also burns out its battery in 1-2 years.(What I call a piggyback battery, is one of those extended batteries with extra capacity that are so big they come with a new back cover for the phone to be able to contain all the lithium ions!)I carry an even older phone, a Blackberry Curve, which is so ancient that kids giggle when they see it and start asking questions about what it is... "It's soo tiny!! Cute!". It has also always required a new battery every 2 years or so, for more than a decade - the batteries eventually lose performance and start to swell. Swap the battery for $5, and it works like new again.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2021, 11:56:39 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on December 06, 2021, 09:29:31 pmI have swapped screens on a couple of "sealed" phones, I am not completely unfamiliar with the types of adhesives used. - I dislike the combination of a sealed battery, wireless-only headphones, and no SD card. The modern flagship phones have much better computing performance, but no (or crappy) peripherals!

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2021, 01:13:40 am
content: Yeah. Batteries are held in place with this double sided stuff. Heck, most of the time, there's even a strip underneath that's supposed to make it easy to remove the double-sided tape and thus the battery. In practice, after a few months of use, with regular heating from the battery, the double-sided tape becomes almost impossible to remove this easily. So the strip is great for servicing batteries after just a short time of use - probably for phones still under warranty - but after 2 years or so, that becomes a lost cause and removing the battery almost always imply fighting with the adhesive and eventually butchering the battery, hoping you don't damage it enough for it to leak or something. Yes, done this a few times...

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2021, 01:27:57 am
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on December 06, 2021, 11:56:39 pmI think the disappearance of SD cards is surely due to pervasive availability of wireless networking and cloud storage?My current phone has a 5G data speed about the same as my wired ISP. It seems like you only need to keep things in local storage that you have an immediate need for. Other things can stay in the cloud. How many movies or podcasts can you watch during one plane ride?

author: eti
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2021, 02:30:32 am
content: Customers are told "You need new things", and they dutifully oblige. That, and "retail therapy" being something they falsely believe will fill the void in their (sometimes) unhappy and unfulfilled lives.I'd rather proudly stamp my name on a product that will last 20 years, and offer maintenance of it as a service, than undermine my morals and keep selling them shite that I KNOW I've produced to purposely break down. Never ever would I do that. Even if I saturated the market and no one came back for another one, I'd be less well off but my conscience is more valuable to me than endless millions I don't need or will never use.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2021, 03:23:02 am
content: Quote from: IanB on December 07, 2021, 01:27:57 amI don't store anything on the cloud, especially things like photos, videos and other content that I've created, local-only. Wireless spectrum is a precious commodity that is always in short supply, we should not be wasting it storing stuff that can be stored locally, memory is cheap.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2021, 04:24:09 am
content: Quote from: IanB on December 07, 2021, 01:27:57 amSD card support is an extra expense and of less utility now that large amounts of storage can be included inside the phone.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2021, 05:53:20 am
content: Quote from: IanB on December 07, 2021, 01:27:57 amCloud storage is another way to lock the customer in... who's going to change away from a vendor's cloud system once their family photos and videos are all stored there, and shared with other family members that way? Big Tech will become like banks - where consumers are more likely to get divorced than switch bank!So of course, the vendors don't want to give us an easy and cheap way to manage our own information, when they can collect it and sell it back to us for all eternity. They also don't want to give us a simple headphone jack, when they can instead keep selling us expensive wireless earbuds designed to last a few years...You may think I am being overly critical of the current state of the smartphone market, but the reality is that my desires as a consumer are not being met by any vendor... I want a durable, quality product with an analog audio jack, expandable storage (SD card), and an easily replaceable battery - but the Phone Cartel has decided that they want me locked in as a paying customer for all eternity and are designing their products predominantly with that goal in mind, rather than what I would enjoy owning and using.

author: Miyuki
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2021, 05:55:23 am
content: You can buy a laptop with an accessible battery even dual hot-swappable.The main reason for having a swappable battery was in the past when you have 2 hours' worth of it when you were lucky. Now when you can easily have 10 or more is it not an issue. Yet still can get it if you want. It adds mechanical problems and contacts can wear down fast.Also, most laptops are now thinner than 18650. Yet even internal one is easy to replace and are widely available.Same with the phones. Do you remember old worn squeaky ones? Modern glued ones just feel more rugged (even when the display is somewhat brittle). But how often do you change the battery? Like one in 3-4 years? A big chunk of people does not use phones that long. Yet battery can be changed reasonably.And phone SD card? Do we really need one? Do you want to hoard hundreds of gigabytes of valuable data in the device that can be easily destroyed, lost, stolen ... And they have plenty of internal storage anyway. And I can agree with the argument SD cards can significantly degrade phone performance compared to internal storage. As even fast ones are rather slow for random access. And people will use slow ones and complain.And never had many issues with a "planned obsolescence".The worst case I had was a Microsoft/Nokia phone, where they kill windows mobile and is barely usable even as a dumb phone now.But otherways 4+ year iPhone 7 just need a new battery.Lenovo laptops work fine even old T430. It is ancient yet daily use and just need a third keyboardHome appliances work. Last exchanged was Fridge and Dryer, both about 20 years.20 Year old car also works. Even when not looking nice. I use it like once a week so no need to fancy one.

author: Miyuki
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2021, 06:05:13 am
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on December 07, 2021, 05:53:20 amAll that efforts ended bankrupt because people do not buy them.You can choose from a gazillion Asian brands.But you can still get even like Samsung Galaxy Xcover it has everything you want and is a "brand"Where is the problem?

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2021, 06:08:37 am
content: Quote from: Miyuki on December 07, 2021, 05:55:23 amI am willing to bet that whatever appliances you buy to replace these units will not last 10 years without major repairs... All of the experienced appliance technicians that I have had cause to talk with recently (due to problems with appliances <5y old), they all seem to say that modern appliances are not well made unless you buy commercial/industrial units at astronomical cost...Is it environmentally sound to carry on the way we are doing, or would we be better off with somewhat higher quality products?

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2021, 06:27:32 am
content: Quote from: Miyuki on December 07, 2021, 06:05:13 amCongratulations, you found the only phone that meets those criteria!I guess you don't live in the US? Here, the carriers get special versions of every phone made for them, so if you want a hassle free life (and support from the carrier, e.g. for wifi calling etc. as well as customer service/tech support) you had better use one of their "approved" phones... My carrier does not have the Xcover as one of "their" phones, but they do have the best plans and coverage in the areas I tend to travel in. Now what?

author: Miyuki
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2021, 06:44:49 am
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on December 07, 2021, 06:27:32 amYou can't just take any phone put SIM in and happily use it? As the EU has plenty of problems, customer protection is huge here. And phone market/use is heavily regulated.Quote from: SilverSolder on December 07, 2021, 06:08:37 amI have some doubts about the Hisense fridge longevityBut AEG dryer proudly stated 10-year warranty so I hope it will last

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2021, 08:19:29 am
content: Well the iPhone battery is almost trivially easy to replace despite needing a small screwdriver, but the lack of a headphone jack is a lot harder to solve and that annoys me. I mostly use wireless headphones but I use wired ear buds often enough to not want to give those up. The notch in the display is a major deal breaker for me, I won't buy one with a hole punch or any other stupidity either. I've never once deliberately turned on the front facing camera and would prefer to not even have one but for some reason that seems to be a mandatory feature to the whole rest of the world.

author: Miyuki
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2021, 09:07:40 am
content: Quote from: james_s on December 07, 2021, 08:19:29 amHave cable reduction all the time on earbuds? Or have lightning / USB c earbuds. They are available.Plenty of banks and similar requires to use front face camera to their face verification

author: m k
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2021, 09:56:24 am
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on December 07, 2021, 06:27:32 amWe are pro-choice, pro-mask.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2021, 05:16:20 pm
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on December 07, 2021, 06:08:37 amThat's mostly true.Quote from: SilverSolder on December 07, 2021, 06:08:37 amI think the answer to that is obvious. But will that stop us? Answer is most likely still no.We'll do whatever it takes to keep using the same approach, for instance by pretending to mitigate the issues (hint: create a lot of new taxes and talk about recycling every change we get, even if that effectively leads to a very low recycle fraction.) I think we'll keep doing the same until things collapse, and will use greenwashing to justify it. This is what we currently do, I don't see any sign of it changing. It's only getting worse. We'll even show with fake studies that producing shorter-lasting items and making them easier to recycle (even if again the effective recycle fraction is negligible) is better environmentally-wise than producing longer-lasting products.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2021, 06:53:30 pm
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on December 07, 2021, 05:53:20 amEven Microsoft is playing that game. They are slowly removing features from File Explorer to make their cloud storage solution more desirable in place of local storage.And it goes farther than that. A Microsoft representative actually said that they removed the free space status from File Explorer to reduce "free space anxiety". But of course that also discourages users from moderating their data storage, so they unwittingly pay more. ISPs play the same game with caps, overage fines, and refusing to monitor remaining data in real time.

author: ogden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2021, 06:58:12 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on December 07, 2021, 05:16:20 pmCompanies obviously are not made for charity. If they can maximize profit - they will do it. Consumers can change that by not buying certain stuff, but as we all know - they care (about environment) even less. Unfortunately most are buying cheapest s***t they can get, manufacturers meet demand.QuoteWow. Please provide pointer to such study. Thanx.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2021, 07:01:47 pm
content: Quote from: Miyuki on December 07, 2021, 09:07:40 amI don't want to have to use a dongle or buy new earbuds, I want the stuff I already have to just plug into it like I do with my current phone. I also sometimes connect a cable to a stereo system to amplify music playing on my phone.I have never seen anything that required the front facing camera or even heard of something like a bank using it for verification. Maybe they do that in your part of the world but as far as I know it isn't a thing here yet. I've had a smartphone since 2011 and so far I have never once intentionally enabled the front facing camera.

author: ogden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2021, 07:31:31 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on December 07, 2021, 07:01:47 pmWhen people want to play vinyl LP's, they get vinyl record player. Most phone users today do not need 3.5mm audio jacks, so you shall not demand modern phones to be capable ofplaying vinyl recordssupporting 3.5mm audio jacks.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2021, 08:54:20 pm
content: Quote from: ogden on December 07, 2021, 07:31:31 pmWhen people want to make love with a real woman, they find one of those. Or, they are stuck with the wireless model!Joking aside, I have noticed that the headphone jack is making a bit of a comeback, just like vinyl records!

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2021, 08:58:25 pm
content: Quote from: ogden on December 07, 2021, 07:31:31 pmI disagree. I have nice headphones that have an audio plug, so I need a way to plug them in. There is no way that headphones are obsolete, even today.

author: ogden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2021, 09:06:56 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on December 07, 2021, 08:58:25 pmYou do not seem to comprehend what I am saying. Even vinyl records are not obsolete, they are just rare, not for mass consumption.https://www.wired.com/gallery/best-headphone-jack-phones/

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2021, 09:12:38 pm
content: I know lots of people that use the headphone jack on their phone, when the device is meant to double as a portable music player there's a good reason for it. Bluetooth audio has its place, but sometimes it's just a hassle to deal with more devices that need to be charged up.I read somewhere that vinyl record sales were way up over the past few years. I'm old enough to still have a handful of them that I had back when that was how you listened to music at home, then a few years ago I started buying them at thrift stores. I'm not going to argue that they sound better than digital, but a record in good condition played on a decent turntable does sound good, and it's a different experience. There's something fascinating about entirely analog audio, the earliest of which did not even require electricity. It's interesting to think that a person ~3,000 years ago could build a functional record player had the idea occurred to them.

author: ogden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2021, 09:17:41 pm
content: Audio jack was one of requirements for all my phones including current one. On the other hand I am not expecting that phones manufactured for the masses will have such. You shall be neither.

author: ejeffrey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2021, 10:40:16 pm
content: Quote from: David Hess on December 07, 2021, 04:24:09 amCheap SD cards are slow, their presence significantly complicates the UI and device management needs to pick what goes on internal vs. external storage, and it is hard to reconcile with "just works" device encryption.Network based off-device backups are in my mind a necessity. I carry my phone around all day. I'm not reckless but there is always a chance it gets lost or broken. There are good reasons to not want commercial device backup/storage but then you can roll your own. Once you have network backup working and can already store a total reasonable amount of local data on the built-in storage, I just don't see the need for an SD card for most people. I know some people *want* it, and I know that some people have use cases that would really benefit from it, but I certainly wouldn't give up much of anything for an SD card.Same with the battery for that matter. I would prefer a user replaceable battery, and I wouldn't mind if the phone were a bit thicker to accommodate it, but I wouldn't give up battery, cost, IP rating, or much of anything else to make room for it. Most non user replacable batteries can be replaced either by the manufacturer or any number of third party services. It costs a few dollars more and is more inconvenient than doing it yourself, but paying $100 to replace a battery in a $500 phone or $1500 laptop that gives it another 3-5 years of useful life? It's totally worth it. I wouldn't want to compromise the daily utility of the phone for something I replace every few years. And if your battery is needing to be replaced every 2 years, the problem isn't with the non-replaceable battery it is with the crappy design.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2021, 11:13:17 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on December 07, 2021, 09:12:38 pmThis is a stumbling block for me. I was just checking out the latest offerings in Bluetooth headphones, and they have some very nice features. But they all have a rechargeable lithium battery that can wear out. Bose, for instance, has a policy of no battery replacement. I don't want to pay $300 for a device with a built-in end-of-life clock.I far prefer to have devices that use AA or AAA rechargeable batteries, so I can simply swap or replace the battery when needed.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2021, 11:20:56 pm
content: Quote from: ejeffrey on December 07, 2021, 10:40:16 pmThe battery is likely too small for the max workload the phone can do, so it gets cycled to death with multiple recharges even intra-day....And/or the device gets hot in use and bakes the battery to death.My worst case phone workload is running both Waze and an OBDII scanner app with a dozen gauges simultaneously, with Messenger and the rest of it in the background. The phone uses so much power that the charger can't keep the battery from slowly draining during the hour or two that the journey lasts.... the phone gets glowing hot, too. In summertime, I sometimes get an error message due to high battery temperature....

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 08, 2021, 01:44:14 am
content: Quote from: james_s on December 07, 2021, 07:01:47 pmAre you also the kind to complain that the latest RTX 3090 doesn't have a VGA port so you can't plug your Trinitron into it? Really, single ended signals that can go below ground aren't the easiest to design particularly for portable devices and is also not ideal for signal quality.I suppose a differential analog audio standard for consumer use could be developed, but it would be facing a losing battle compared to digital audio.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 08, 2021, 02:30:49 am
content: Quote from: NiHaoMike on December 08, 2021, 01:44:14 amI have no idea what a RTX 3090 is so I don't know. I do still have a nice Trinitron TV set up in my rec room though, I mostly use it for the vintage console games.Oh come on, not the easiest? That's absurd. Analog headphone audio is a problem solved decades ago, it is trivial, even easier now than it was then with single chip class D amplifier solutions that can run off batteries and produce ample power. If I can buy a $10 MP3 player from China that sounds great through analog headphones then there is no reason a $500 smartphone should lack that capability. My current iPhone has a headphone jack that works perfectly fine, I'm just not sure what I'd replace it with if I ever have to upgrade.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 08, 2021, 02:33:03 am
content: Wireless headphones are now passé, all the cool kids want wired headphones now!https://www.teenvogue.com/story/wired-headphones-2021-it-accessoryhttps://www.insidehook.com/daily_brief/internet/gen-z-making-wired-headphones-cool-againhttps://www.digitalmusicnews.com/2021/11/22/wired-earphones-comeback/If you're not "Committed to the wire", you are just basically uncool!

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 08, 2021, 02:35:38 am
content: Quote from: ejeffrey on December 07, 2021, 10:40:16 pmSo don't use cheap SD cards, just require cards of a certain class and display a warning if it is too slow. The UI and device management is not rocket science, this is another largely solved problem, just have a selection for photos, videos, music and podcasts, store internally or store on removable storage by default. For retrieval just automatically grab items from both locations. There is IMO no reason to support storing apps and other things on the SD card, it is only needed for media storage. A competent project manager could spec out this functionality in a day.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 08, 2021, 03:26:56 am
content: Support for SD cards in any modern mobile device takes an absolutely negligible amount of resources compared to all the rest. It's absolutely nearly "zero" cost software-wise, considering how gigantic software on those has become. And support is built in OSs that those phones use anyway. Software-wise, everything is already solved on the OS level. There is absolutely nothing to do, except actually explicitely configure the OS (say, Android) without SD card support if you absolutely want to trim that. Which is an extra effort.Now sure, you have the annoyance of having to add an SD card connector. It doesn't even have to be accessible "externally", since most phones have used trays for SD cards for years, most often combined with the SIM card.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 08, 2021, 03:34:47 am
content: Quote from: james_s on December 08, 2021, 02:30:49 amThe problem comes down to either you'll have to have fairly large coupling caps to allow the use of a single voltage rail or you'll have to add a negative rail to a device that otherwise would not need one. Then there's the issue that while it works well for headphones since they don't have any other connection to ground, using it to connect an amplifier is just asking for ground loops. Making a new consumer standard for differential analog audio with allowance for up to a few volts of common mode offset solves both those problems, but such a standard has few advantages compared to USB audio. Most higher end consumer amplifiers nowadays are digital so a digital interconnect makes a lot of sense.Quote from: SilverSolder on December 08, 2021, 02:33:03 amIf studio style headphones become "cool" instead of IEMs, that would give plenty of room for additional batteries. With USB-C, those batteries can supply extra power to the phone or other portable device. It could then be possible to make it dual mode wired or wireless and even have seamless switching between those modes.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 08, 2021, 04:13:46 am
content: Quote from: IanB on December 07, 2021, 11:13:17 pmI prefer AA and AAA cells also but have recently expanded my acceptable battery list to CR123A and rechargeable 18650s which are twice the length of CR123As. Many 18650 devices can use a pair of CR123As instead if necessary.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 08, 2021, 06:25:05 am
content: Quote from: NiHaoMike on December 08, 2021, 03:34:47 amThere is no problem, you're making a mountain out of a mole hill. The PAM8403 for example puts out several watts running from a single supply and requires only a few tiny chip capacitors and there are numerous other options. I don't know what amp is inside my iPhone SE but it works perfectly both to drive headphones and feeding an amplifier and it works perfectly in countless other phones, music players and other devices made over the years. This "problem" has been solved years ago, we don't need to reinvent the wheel.I'm not against differential audio, but it isn't needed on a phone. I just want a standard headphone jack, like the one I already have on my phone, which is like the one I had on my last phone, and on my iPod, and on the dozens of other gadgets I've owned that had one. It's not like this is some hypothetical new invention, it's literally something I already have, have had for years, and would like to keep having.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 08, 2021, 07:38:24 am
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on December 07, 2021, 01:13:40 amI recently replaced the battery on my old iPhone 6S (from 2015) and the adhesive strip pulled off just as it was supposed to. If I’m not mistaken, I had had the battery replaced 2 or 3 years prior, so at the very youngest it was a 2 year old battery, but probably longer.

author: Miyuki
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 08, 2021, 08:43:47 am
content: Quote from: james_s on December 08, 2021, 06:25:05 amAnd most phones have already that analog audio signal routed to the connector (either USB C or Lightning). It is just a matter of the shape of the plug on the headphones.It is not a bigger problem than 6.3 mm jack vs 3.5 mm one and small 2.5 mmWhen I really want to use big headphones with bulky cable is that connector reduction that big problem?

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 08, 2021, 02:59:36 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on December 08, 2021, 06:25:05 amPAM8403 is differential output and will not work for driving headphones. There's no way around coupling capacitors or a negative supply rail with that antiquated design.I recall that back when the iPod was popular, the output capacitors were too small causing substantial waveform distortion at lower frequencies. Hence the emergence of portable headphone amplifiers, something that really shouldn't be needed for a device specifically designed for portable audio.Quote from: Miyuki on December 08, 2021, 08:43:47 amAs mentioned, USB-C gives extra capabilities like using the headphones to hold extra battery capacity for a portable device that's made thinner than it needs to be.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 08, 2021, 04:38:24 pm
content: Quote from: Miyuki on December 08, 2021, 08:43:47 amFWIW, I know that some Android phones do that, but on Apple devices the ports are purely digital, and the headphone adapters contain full DACs and ADCs. (Lightning doesn’t even have the option of analog audio out. It’s astrictlyall-digital interface. Video output on Lightning is actually implemented as an h.264 stream, decoded in the HDMI “adapter” which actually contains an entire ARM SoC running a super-lightweight version of iOS just to decode the h.264 stream and run the HDMI port!)

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 08, 2021, 04:40:28 pm
content: Quote from: NiHaoMike on December 08, 2021, 02:59:36 pmI’m skeptical of such claims. Perhaps with 600 ohm cans that needed tons of voltage, but test after test showed the iPod and iPhone DACs to be exceptionally good. Even the microscopic ones in the Lightning headphone adapters test really, really well.As for the PAM8403: you have to use a big resistor network to drive headphones with it, as shown here:https://www.edn.com/add-headphones-to-a-class-d-amplifier/(It does work, I’ve done it in a pinch, though I’d just use a real headphone amp IC if given the choice.) But I have no idea what you mean about needing a negative supply rail: it doesn’t even support dual-rail operation, never mind require a negative rail! And caps are definitely not required, though they are recommended.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 08, 2021, 05:21:02 pm
content: Quote from: NiHaoMike on December 08, 2021, 03:34:47 amMost modern designs would probably use a bridged pair of amps, to avoid this problem entirely. Silicon is cheap... Notice how smartphones have 2 or 3 cameras on the back, it is cheaper and more compact to put multiple sensors in there than it is to make the lenses move for different focal lengths! hmmm thinking about it, the common ground shared between Right and Left may be an issue with bridged amps. - Still, the problem seems to have been solved for decades!

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 08, 2021, 08:10:13 pm
content: I was not suggesting using the PAM8403 for driving headphones, I was using it as an example of a small, simple and relatively powerful audio amplifier that runs on a single supply and doesn't require large capacitors. I'm quite sure there are numerous parts on the market more suitable for driving headphones, I'm just not familiar with anything specific.The big problem with headphone audio through USB-C is there is only one port, you cannot plug in headphones (or an external amp) while the phone is charging. It's all kind of silly anyway, I already have exactly what I want, a standard headphone jack on my phone, so just keep making phones that have that, problem solved. There is no good reason to get rid of it.

author: ogden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 08, 2021, 08:39:46 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on December 08, 2021, 08:10:13 pmPhones with audio jacks are still manufactured. Just get one. Stating things like "I like mechanical buttons" so every phone on the market shall have such, sounds laughable to say it politely.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 08, 2021, 11:49:12 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on December 08, 2021, 08:10:13 pmThere is no shortage of USB-C to headphone jack adapters that also have a pass-through USB-C port. I just bought one last week for my new iPad. Even though it’s only advertised for pass-through charging, it actually works for data, too!

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 08, 2021, 11:55:36 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on December 08, 2021, 11:49:12 pmWhy force the customers to use adapters and dongles?The EU was right to force Big (Ripoff) Tech to standardise on one single charging port a while back...I hope the EU eventually investigates the "coincidence" that all the manufacturers drop replaceable batteries, ports, and SD cards from flagship models all at the same time.I don't think Big Tech are the good guys any longer... now, they are more like America's railroad robber barons back in the day!

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 09, 2021, 01:28:24 am
content: QuoteMaybe because the phones just come with more flash now. A few years ago I regularly trimmed what was stored on the phone, and with my latest (which isn't even a current model) I just don't bother thinking about it. Actually, I lie - my real latest, which I don't use because I prefer the previous one, has just run out of flash, but that's because it's running two completely separate instances of Android so is really two phones sharing one memory.The other thing could be cost and space - leaving out the flash card means they don't need the carrier nor the electronics to access it.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 09, 2021, 01:30:34 am
content: Quote from: tooki on December 08, 2021, 04:40:28 pmThe DAC is good, the weak link has been the output capacitors that are sized too small causing the waveform to distort with headphones connected. (There was an article about that issue showing the waveforms that look good with nothing connected but become really distorted with headphones connected.) Hence why the external headphone amplifiers are able to work around it, by presenting a high impedance that masks the issue. I recall that Apple switched to a direct coupled design starting with the iPod Shuffle as the proper fix.Quote from: tooki on December 08, 2021, 11:49:12 pmNot only that, there are lots of cheap USB-C adapters that break out more USB ports, pass through charging, HDMI, and Ethernet.

author: cortex_m0
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 09, 2021, 03:11:22 am
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on December 08, 2021, 11:55:36 pmHeadphones with a cable have some technical advantages (most notably audio quality, no need to re-charge), but technical advantage does not imply a winning product. The consumer has embraced wireless headphones and rejected the dongle.The products in the marketplace will change as consumer preferences become more clear, and it doesn't look like a lot of consumers agree with you and me on the superiority of headphone jacks.Quote from: SilverSolder on December 08, 2021, 11:55:36 pmAt the time the iPhone eliminated the headphone jack, more than two-thirds of respondents to a web survey said they thought Apple removing the headphone jack was a mistake. I think it is clear now that their move was not a loser in the market place.So it's not a coincidence. The 3.5mm jack-free iPhone has been a success, since it was launched 6 years ago so everyone else followed. The iPhone has never had a user-serviceable battery or an SD card.

author: ogden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 09, 2021, 06:13:43 am
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on December 08, 2021, 11:55:36 pmRight. Add to your list disappeared features and peripherals all over the place. Why there is no built-in CD-RW drives anymore in the laptops, casette players in the cars? Big tech is robbing consumers!

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 09, 2021, 06:35:09 am
content: Quote from: ogden on December 08, 2021, 08:39:46 pmI have one, but what iPhone can I get to replace it if I ever need to do that? The only alternative is Android and it doesn't support iMessage so it doesn't meet my needs.I don't expect every phone to have mechanical buttons, but I won't buy one that doesn't have a physical home button unless there is absolutely no other option, and in that case I'll keep my existing phone for as long as possible.I don't expect EVERY phone to have anything, but it would certainly be nice if virtually EVERY phone didn't copy the same stupid design decisions Apple makes.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 09, 2021, 06:44:22 am
content: Quote from: cortex_m0 on December 09, 2021, 03:11:22 amThat's a false comparison, how can you say it was a success when they removed it from all of their flagship models and people still kept buying the phones? If you're invested in the iOS ecosystem you can buy any phone you want, as long as it's an iPhone. The fact that a feature is removed and people keep on buying them doesn't mean it was a good decision or that the phone would be any less successful without the headphone jack, it just means there is so little competition and most of the competition copies whatever Apple does anyway that the only real option is to bend over and take it. Seriously, how can it be argued that removing a feature that is useful to a significant number of people an improvement? If you don't need it you don't have to use it, but if it isn't there you can't use it whether you want to or not. The battery is user serviceable, I've replaced several iPhone batteries, it was easy. The lack of SD card support is something that has always annoyed me, but what choice do I have? I could get an Android phone and that would bring a different set of problems.There is no really good mobile phone platform on the market, it is not a matter of choosing the one I like best, I had to choose the one I hate least, and I have every right to complain about it, and I find corporate apologists and fanbois with their smug and dismissive attitudes to be some of the most irritating people on the planet.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 09, 2021, 08:05:55 am
content: One feature, one I consider genuinely useful, that digitally connected headphones (be it Bluetooth, Lightning, or USB-C), in a tightly controlled ecosystem like apple’s, is headphone volume safety. When using digitally-connected Apple-made headphones, iOS can carefully monitor the actual headphone output, optionally limiting to anactualvolume output, and not just a “dumb” maximum setting that’s unaware of the sensitive of the headphones in use. With compatible headphones, you can view real-time output (see attached screenshot from my iPhone). You can optionally configure it to limit to a particular dB level, and again it’s based on actual content volume. So if you need to turn the volume way up for a quiet recording, you still can, and if you forget to turn it back down for a “hot” recording, it will protect your ears.(Way better than the old EU volume limit, which has no way of knowing what headphones were in use, and so by law the limit was based on the included headphones, often leaving you with insufficient volume with headphones.)What I don’t know is whether Apple has a mechanism to allow third-party Made for iPhone headphones with digital connections to work with this system. If they don’t, I hope they enable it eventually.

author: Miyuki
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 09, 2021, 08:41:24 am
content: Quote from: tooki on December 08, 2021, 04:38:24 pmI was not aware of that. Yet they are still available almost for no cost, so why not.I use USB headphones even for a computer. They can regulate volume and mute/pause. Have mic. They have only benefits for me as I do not have any analog audio setup and if I will have one, it will have dedicated headphones anyway.And USB one I can connect to hub conveniently placed on the table.

author: cortex_m0
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 09, 2021, 12:58:00 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on December 09, 2021, 06:44:22 amBecause people kept buying the phones,andApple did not back-track,andits competitors followed their lead.Quote from: james_s on December 09, 2021, 06:44:22 amYou have every right to complain. Just recognize that what is preferred by you individually and what is preferred by the broad market are not necessarily linked.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 09, 2021, 01:47:21 pm
content: Quote"You can buy this car in any color you like so long as it's black""Instead of walking, people buy our cars so clearly people want black cars"

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 09, 2021, 01:54:31 pm
content: Quote from: cortex_m0 on December 09, 2021, 03:11:22 amThe fact that people are buying the gimped phones isn't evidence that they agreed with the de-contenting of the product. Removing the headphone jack would not stop consumers buying phones - they are just too useful overall to reject completely for the sake of an annoyance, right? Even hardcore headphone jack fans like me would not stop buying phones...The survey result is probably the honest answer as to what consumers think - the fact that they still buy the phones is simply because really, we no longer have a choice these days... we have to have a phone.So what do consumers do, then? If I can't get a phone with the features I want, my personal reaction is to keep older models that do have those features as long as possible. Once I can't do that any longer, I will buy one of the de-contented crappy new phones, but it will be the cheapest model that does the job, because the flagship phones would no longer be a flagship to me... more like a plastic bathtub with a pair of oars than a flagship - and I am not going to pay flagship prices for a plastic bathtub with oars, right?For the money saved with a cheaper phone, I can buy a dedicated FLAC player with a high end DAC that does have a headphone jack. This has the side benefit that the surveillance capitalists are no longer able to track everything I choose to listen to.... so, maybe they have scored a bit of an own goal there, lol!

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 09, 2021, 02:02:52 pm
content: Quote from: cortex_m0 on December 09, 2021, 12:58:00 pmThe proposition that the removal of the headphone jack was market-driven is entirely fallacious. You even quoted a survey yourself that said 75% of consumers disagreed with it?"Lumping it" is not the same as "liking it"...

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 09, 2021, 02:05:40 pm
content: Quote from: ogden on December 09, 2021, 06:13:43 amI have no problem with removing peripherals and features that most people do not use. Think of IEEE interfaces, for example. Let's take them out of all the T&M equipment, the mass market would totally agree with you that they are useless!It seems to me that most people that listened to music with their phones used headphone jacks... ? Who actually asked for it to be "upgraded"? Did you??

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 09, 2021, 02:13:55 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on December 09, 2021, 08:05:55 amBack in the day, one of my friends had a little too much to drink at a music festival... he fell asleep with his head more or less inside one of the big speakers at the event. That cost him 30% reduced hearing in one ear...Moral of the story? - you can legislate for seatbelts, volume limits, no tobacco, etc., but if people don't take care of themselves, some of them will come a gutsa!

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 09, 2021, 05:17:48 pm
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on December 09, 2021, 02:13:55 pmOh jeez, that sucks for him!!!Yeah, I never liked the EU volume limit, but I very much approve of the well-designed, opt-in features Apple puts in now.What I actually don't mind is the volume limits Switzerland puts in place at concerts and clubs (the strictest limit in the world), which is an average of 100dB(A) over an hour. It's debatable whether it actually prevents hearing loss, but I simply find it more pleasant -- 100dB(A) isstilllouder than I actually care for, and I in no way prefer my music to be quiet! So every DJ booth here has to have a sound level meter, and they often use one with a big display that can be easily seen by staff and any interested patrons. (Police do perform spot checks, especially in places with reputations for not adhering to the law.)

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 09, 2021, 09:54:03 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on December 07, 2021, 01:13:40 amJust a few weeks ago, I replaced the battery on my Zenfone 2 (551ml, not the 2e) probably 10 years old by now (not sure of actual age since it was purchased use). The glue strip that glues the battery holder was easy to pull out and still very flexible. The double sided tape that held the battery to the battery holder was hardened and very difficult to remove. Instead of a 1/2 day battery, now it is a 2 day one. Difficult but not too bad.On my new Samsung S9, battery lasts a day. But looking at youtube for its battery removal, that looks like hell to remove. It does still support SD card.From a usability standpoint, I still prefer the Zenfone 2 (Andriod 6) over the Samsung S9. The Zenfone is my internet device and Samsung is my backup (phone wise, I am using flip phone). Speed isn't everything.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 09, 2021, 10:35:13 pm
content: Quote from: cortex_m0 on December 09, 2021, 12:58:00 pmThat's meaningless, it tells you absolutely nothing due to the fact that virtually everyone needs a phone, and everyone copies pretty much whatever Apple does. Of course people are still buying the phones, because they have no other real choice. In order to have any meaningful data Apple would have to offer two very similar phones, one with a headphone jack and one without, and then if the one without sold better you could say it was a sound business decision. Why would anyone buy a phone without a headphone jack if they had a choice? What real advantage does not having it bring? You don't have to use it if it's there.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 09, 2021, 10:40:49 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on December 09, 2021, 05:17:48 pmYes I agree there. I have not been to a concert in years but in my younger days I went to a handful of them and every one of them was much too loud. I don't understand the point of making it so loud that it's just painful and you need to wear earplugs to even hear the music. If I just wanted auditory pain I could do it a lot more cheaply by sawing up sheetmetal on a table saw at home.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 09, 2021, 10:45:19 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on December 09, 2021, 10:35:13 pmAirPods (wireless earphones) now make up a significant percentage of Apple profits... do we need to look any further to figure out why the headphone jack had to go?

author: cortex_m0
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2021, 12:48:49 am
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on December 09, 2021, 02:02:52 pmYes, I did. And obviously the respondents to that survey have since changed their minds, because nowhere close to 75% refused to buy an iPhone 7 and above.

author: helius
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2021, 01:04:30 am
content: "% of people refused to buy X" is a strange syntax and a non-verifiable factoid.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2021, 01:08:49 am
content: Quote from: cortex_m0 on December 10, 2021, 12:48:49 amI would go further than that... Many bought the Airpods, helping Apple's wearables division grow to nearly 10% of Apple's revenue. Now you are going to tell us that this had nothing to do with Apple's decision making process, right?

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2021, 01:28:52 am
content: Quote from: cortex_m0 on December 10, 2021, 12:48:49 amJust shows how you misunderstood even the stuff you wrote! What you actually said was:QuoteNothing there about anyone not buying anything. All they said was that they thought it was a mistake. Their preference was thus to retain the feature. No-one threatened not to buy the phone if it was removed, though - that's something you made up yourself.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2021, 02:26:05 am
content: No different from the VGA port disappearing from GPUs, since it got replaced by superior standards.

author: cortex_m0
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2021, 04:05:44 am
content: Quote from: helius on December 10, 2021, 01:04:30 amI don't know what you mean. iPhone sales are easily verifiable.Quote from: SilverSolder on December 10, 2021, 01:08:49 amNo, I'm not a dummy. Apple saw the opportunity in headphones almost 10 years ago, that's why they bought Beats by Dre. The strong sales of airpods and competitive wireless earbuds clearly mean the headphone jack isn't coming back.The success of AirPods is illustrative of my point. A customer who is reluctantly buying a product does not buy a $159 accessory from the same manufacturer.Quote from: dunkemhigh on December 10, 2021, 01:28:52 amIt's a bold strategy to both tell me I didn't understand what I read, and cite my retelling of what I supposedly didn't understand in the same reply.I only brought it up because the initial reaction to the lack of a headphone jack was very negative, but only james_s still thinks getting rid of the headphone jack was a mistake. Something happened along the way to change lots of minds.

author: helius
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2021, 04:11:14 am
content: Quote from: cortex_m0 on December 10, 2021, 04:05:44 amWhat do sales have to do with refusals? I think you're arguing in bad faith.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2021, 04:33:52 am
content: Quote from: cortex_m0 on December 10, 2021, 04:05:44 amGetting rid of the headphone jack was not a mistake... it was an intentional plan, brilliantly executed, to get a significant number of people to pay >10x more than they should for their headphones - which is a good match with paying >10x too much for their phones in the first place!This thread is beginning to show how common it is for people to turn a blind eye to the plethora of information around them, seeking out and focusing only on that part of the information that aligns with their decision. It's called "cognitive dissonance".When two opposing ideas are psychologically inconsistent, there is a burning desire to reduce the gap between the inconsistent perceptions which can become overwhelming, especially if it is something we feel is erroneous...

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2021, 07:16:01 am
content: Quote from: cortex_m0 on December 10, 2021, 04:05:44 amTotal nonsense, I could find you dozens of people who would prefer to have the headphone jack, there are numerous people on this thread who agree. Now maybe we are using different definitions of "mistake", if the plan was to push people to buy expensive wireless ear buds and they're going to buy the phones anyway because they have no real choice then ok, it was a good but sleazy business decision because people are virtually forced to buy the phones anyway and now a lot of them will drop more money on airpods. Would I buy a phone without a headphone jack? Yes, grudgingly, if I can't buy a new iphone that has one, I'll be forced to buy one without at some point and I need a phone. Has my mind been changed? Will I be happy about it or think it's a good idea they removed it? Hell no, it is making the product worse and less desirable to me, if they offered one that still had the jack I would buy that one instead and so would most people. But the key detail here that you gloss over isTHERE IS NO CHOICE! Apple dropped the headphone jack, across their entire range of phones. If you need a new phone, you either buy one without a headphone jack or you consider one of the few Android phones that do have one, and they have other negative aspects.I don't know how you are taking the fact that people are still buying the phones (because what else are they going to do, not have a phone?) as minds being changed and thinking that lack of a headphone jack is somehow good or an improvement. Do you not understand the concept of buying something anyway even though there are negative aspects because every available choice has negative aspects? Do I just need to explain this differently? What would you suggest I do if my requirement is a phone running iOS and a very strong desire is is to have a headphone jack? Seriously, what is your suggestion within these constraints? Not having a phone is not an option, so if I do buy one without a jack are you actually going to try to say that means I've changed my mind and think removing the jack was actually a good idea? I'm genuinely confused here, I do not understand your thought process.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2021, 07:18:35 am
content: Quote from: cortex_m0 on December 10, 2021, 04:05:44 amBullshit! I can introduce you to someone who reluctantly bought a set of airpods after reluctantly buying a new iPhone to replace the one that broke. Would that change your mind? Are you going to assume he is the only one?

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2021, 07:22:16 am
content: Quote from: NiHaoMike on December 10, 2021, 02:26:05 amIt's a lot different. VGA had been going away for a while, it was always an inferior solution for digital flat panels which have had DVI for at least 20 years. The only thing VGA makes any sense for is CRT monitors and those have been out of production for years. Analog audio products are widespread and still in production. The analog headphone jack is superior to bluetooth in many ways and it is still used by countless people. This is apples and oranges. A more similar comparison would be HDMI, Displayport or whatever they are using now disappearing and being replaced by a wireless video standard that requires purchasing a new monitor or using a dongle.

author: Miyuki
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2021, 08:45:43 am
content: Quote from: james_s on December 10, 2021, 07:16:01 amBut it is dozens of people vs millions who do not need it.You have plenty o different phone forms, "dumb phones", rugged ones, with a qwerty keyboard ...People in surveys and discussions are not ones buying phones.Every manufacturer tries to copy Apple because it is the most successful one. You might like it or not. But it is fact.And every try to make phone different failed. People just did not buy it. Even if they scream how great it is.You can try to design an "ideal" phone but it will be ideal for you not for buying public. People just won't buy your phone.And you can buy noname wireless earbuds for a single-digit price. They are manufactured in huge numbers because people want them.

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2021, 09:05:20 am
content: This right here. Sheeple gonna sheep.Most of them damage their gear or use bloated apps that demand bi-yearly hardware replacement scheduleanyway.Bluetooth audio solves the "cables" problem which forced them to regularly replace headphones so far.Now they will be replacing them when the dodgy-ass irreplaceable batteries crap out.Shit tier wireless headphones aren't even that expensive anymore so who cares.

author: heutnoch
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: December 10, 2021, 09:48:09 am
content: James can find you dozens of people who would appreciate headphone jacks and so can I. And not in the country or my city but among the peers I know. It is not dozens vs. millions. Decisions that are made and that sell, are by no means always “good” decisions. At least not in every sense. Most smartphones are bought by pretty silly reasons. So, they are built to satisfy silly needs. I myself by smartphones by pretty silly reasons. Never bought an iPhone through.But my last phone didn’t have a headphone jack though. I can’t expect a phone to be thin, IP68 and have all kind of connectors I like to have. I don’t use headphones often, so it didn’t bother me quite some time. But the moment I wanted to listen to music and load my phone at the same time came. I couldn’t do it and I didn’t like it. The phone never needed to be IP68 but I missed the headphone jack. So, I reactivated my old phone, just to listen to music. For a while I carried two phones around. One didn’t recognise SIM cards anymore, but it has a headphone jack and with all wireless communication turned of the battery life was plenty.And now I have a $200 phone instead of a $800 phone. It features a high-capacity battery and a headphone jack. I can even use it to call people. Sometimes I miss my old phones camera (it was really good) but it is a phone, that can make pictures, and no camera I can make calls with.

author: Miyuki
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2021, 10:58:40 am
content: Quote from: heutnoch on December 10, 2021, 09:48:09 amYes you made your vote with a walletThere is plenty of choice on the market. Smaller manufacturers fill the gaps in the market.Phone market have reasonably small blocks to enter the market. Everything that people will buy is manufactured.Phones like this will be made and sold as long as some people will buy them. But there is not a lot of people who buy them.

author: heutnoch
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: December 10, 2021, 11:31:28 am
content: Yes, there is no ideal phone for anyone. Or for very very few people. You can try to balance things out. I for my part am happier, when I’m a little unhappy about some aspects of a phone, that did only cost me $200. And while it is sometimes useful to have internet to go in your pocket, I don’t really use it as a multimedia platform, for gaming or other demanding stuff. So why pay for it? Different people use their phones in different ways and buy different phones. That’s why there is a market.It might also be a smart choice (for some people) to buy a phone, that costed $1000 a few years ago. The specs might be similar to a budget pone in many regards, but I guess the investment into developing a flagship phone is higher. Pictures and sound might be better, power consumption more optimized and so on.And yeah, a brand-new flagship phone can be a damn nice piece of technic you just want to own for… reasons. I’m not immune to that. I tried it out and might do so again at some point.But as you can’t expect to find a phone, that meets your demand in every single feature, you can’t conclude that a sold phone is a vote, that every single design decision was the right one in the buyers opinion. And you can’t expect every buyer to know, how to rate design decisions.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2021, 11:55:47 am
content: QuoteMy Dell laptop of some years came without an RJ45 port (too thick for the case, I think). I have to use a USB->Ethernet dongle. And I think many laptops now come with USB-C only, so if you want serial or network of even video you're going to need a dongle.Hmmm. Thinking about all the stuff that's missing nowadays (optical drive, before that floppy drive, miscellaneous ports) it seems like Apple was the first to jump ship and everyone else followed.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2021, 01:25:55 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on December 10, 2021, 07:22:16 amEvery smartphone I'm aware of still supports wired audio output, just in digital form.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2021, 01:52:41 pm
content: Quote from: Miyuki on December 10, 2021, 10:58:40 amThe "flagship phones" are promoted heavily with advertising and media trend setters etc., and fetch a premium price. It almost doesn't matter what the technology is at that level, as long as customers can be convinced it is "the best"...

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2021, 01:58:03 pm
content: Quote from: Miyuki on December 10, 2021, 08:45:43 amI don't know for a fact because I haven't looked, but I would be very surprised if the Apple wireless earbuds used an open protocol that allows competing products to be made...

author: Miyuki
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2021, 04:19:02 pm
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on December 10, 2021, 01:58:03 pmThey are Bluetooth compatible audio deviceThey work with any device and the same way you can use any Bluetooth earbuds with an apple phone

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2021, 04:39:45 pm
content: Quote from: Miyuki on December 10, 2021, 04:19:02 pmFair enough.I did stumble on the paragraph below, a propos the whole question of sealed batteries, which also affects Airpods, apparently:"The lithium-ion batteries in AirPods can see significant degradation over time, with two-year-old sets lasting for less than half of the advertised five hours. Apple has a program to service batteries and purchase replacement individual AirPods and charging cases. The replacement of one or both AirPods or the charging case has a lower price with AppleCare+ than without. Apple offers battery servicing for free with AppleCare+ and for a fee without. However, this is just a replacement service, as AirPods batteries cannot be removed."

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2021, 08:31:42 pm
content: Quote from: NiHaoMike on December 10, 2021, 01:25:55 pmMaybe you can show me how to plug headphones or an external amplifier into a current generation iPhone while it's charging because I can only seem to find one single connector that can be used for one thing or the other.The point remains that I can't plug in any of my existing headphones with the new ones, and I can do so with the older one I have, so the new models have taken away useful functionality while offering nothing to me in return for that loss of functionality and convenience.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2021, 08:40:16 pm
content: Quote from: Miyuki on December 10, 2021, 08:45:43 amDozens of people *THAT I PERSONALLY KNOW/INTERACT WITH*, are you saying that you personally know millions of people who think removing it is an improvement? I don't care if not everyone needs it, if they don't need it they don't have to use it, what harm does it cause by being there? A study was quoted earlier saying fully 2/3 of consumers would prefer to have it, and you are still trying to suggest that a majority not only don't need it, but would prefer to not have it? Millions of people don't need it, even more millions would prefer to have it. I swear, the almighty Apple could remove any feature they wanted and cripple their devices in any way imaginable and a significant number of people would gush about what a great improvement it is. It's bizarre to me the way some people seem to get so personally invested in a company and will endlessly apologize for them and refuse to acknowledge stupid/irritating design decisions.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2021, 08:47:46 pm
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on December 10, 2021, 01:58:03 pmThey're all compatible. I frequently use bluetooth headphones with my iPhone, I have a couple different pairs, one is a basic set and the other has active noise cancelling. I like bluetooth and find it to be very useful, I would not want to go without it. I also like having a headphone jack because sometimes I want to plug in something analog that does not have bluetooth. People are treating this like it's an either-or thing, like we have to ditch analog in order to have bluetooth. That's totally stupid, I already have bluetooth, ditching the headphone jack is not giving me anything at all, it is only taking something away. It doesn't matter if I only used it even once a year, for that alone it is worth having. In reality though I use it much more than that, several times when I've been on the bus or in the office and my bluetooth headphones went dead I pulled the cable out of my pack and connected them to the headphone jack. I'm afraid I will never understand the mentality that having less choice and fewer options is somehow an improvement.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2021, 10:27:06 pm
content: DIY guy adds headphone jack to an iPhone 7... LOL!

author: ogden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2021, 12:36:06 am
content: Quote from: james_s on December 10, 2021, 08:31:42 pmAs current generation iPhones have wireless charging capability, it's easy

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2021, 01:17:07 am
content: Only if I lug around a wireless charging pad with me, I don't know anyone that owns one of those, but everyone has a few regular phone chargers around.I hope my iPhone SE lasts a long time because unless Apple changes their mind and brings back the headphone jack I'm going to keep the phone I have for as long as I possibly can before I'm forced to downgrade to a newer model.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2021, 01:55:48 am
content: Quote from: james_s on December 10, 2021, 08:31:42 pmI don't know about iPhone but for USB-C devices, there are lots of cheap adapters that give you charging, multiple USB ports, HDMI, and Ethernet with just one connection.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2021, 03:42:33 am
content: Quote from: james_s on December 10, 2021, 08:31:42 pmIf you can ask the question, there is probably an answer.https://www.bestbuy.com/site/anker-lightning-to-3-5mm-audio-adapter-and-pass-through-charging-white/6413591.p?skuId=6413591https://www.bestbuy.com/site/belkin-lightning-to-headphone-jack-charging-adapter-white/6091909.p?skuId=6091909

author: ogden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2021, 08:45:35 am
content: Whining why my "made for the masses" phone do not havespecificfeature is nonsense, especially when there are plenty of decent phones with 3.5mm jacks and microSDXC cards around. Honestly prehistoric 3.5mm audio connector is for losers. True audiophiles are using 2.5mm or 4.4mm balanced audio with headphones like Beyerdynamic T1, SENNHEISER HD 820 or alike and play music on proper music players like Astell&Kern A&futura SE200, Shanling M8, Sony WM1Z Walkman and so on

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2021, 12:02:05 pm
content: Quote from: ogden on December 11, 2021, 08:45:35 amI understand your point but these cans are still a simulation of a live room. Don't get me wrong they are a great simulation. I wish I had them when my ears still worked.But I think the only people pining for the 1/8 audio jack are quite satisfied with the passive sound quality in a pedestrian environment. A portable audio player, yes, will deliver a superb quality. But the phone with it's noisy SOCs and wifi BT and Cell antennas, will never, I think, satisfy a true audio purist.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2021, 01:28:15 pm
content: Quote from: Ed.Kloonk on December 11, 2021, 12:02:05 pmThere is always the LG V20, which had a quad DAC audio circuit, 3.5mm headphone jack, replaceable battery, and SD card slot. Possibly the pinnacle of smartphone development so far!

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2021, 01:33:07 pm
content: While driving around yesterday, I thought of another situation that seems similar to removing the audio jack: The demise of the stick shift in cars!You almost can't get a stick shift in a sports car any longer, most of them are paddle shifters or "manumatics" nowadays.Someone that prefers a stick shift would probably not appreciate these developments!

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2021, 01:46:00 pm
content: Quote from: ogden on December 11, 2021, 08:45:35 amFair enough, but you can get excellent results driving a set of decent headphones via a 3.5mm headphone jack... And then there's the fact that the girls like wired headphones, so who's the loser now?https://www.teenvogue.com/story/wired-headphones-2021-it-accessoryIt is fair to say that the Airpods (and similar) are great, but have introduced some problems of their own that the previous tech didn't have. I am thinking of:(1) Added cost,(2) Have to keep'em charged,(3) The batteries wear out in ~2 years.If the benefits outweigh the disadvantages for you, fine. But you have to accept that not everyone comes to the same conclusion!

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2021, 01:53:10 pm
content: What's a "quack DAC" and who thinks it is more important than what buffer is used to actually drive the headphone load?

author: heutnoch
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: December 11, 2021, 02:04:03 pm
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on December 11, 2021, 01:46:00 pm

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2021, 03:20:56 pm
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on December 11, 2021, 01:46:00 pmUSB is wired, no problems there. I think it's mainly gamer girls who prefer wired since Bluetooth has higher latency.

author: ogden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2021, 03:33:21 pm
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on December 11, 2021, 01:46:00 pmSure. That's why we have endless list of different shopping choices. BTW I prefer function to fashion/religion and use what is best for occasion. When sitting @computer - I will be using decent wired over-ear headphones. As soon as I expect myself moving, I do not put studio headphones in my pocket, but rather BT earbuds. Charging is not an issue either - because earbud case can receive charging wirelessly from phone back-to-back.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2021, 03:47:56 pm
content: Quote from: magic on December 11, 2021, 01:53:10 pm"quack DAC" lol!I'm guessing it's 4 DACs in parallel. Maybe you can get better accuracy that way, I don't know! Probably mostly audiophoolery. Agreed about the output amp/buffer being more important....[Edit: Quad DAC is essentially a marketing name for an ESS brand DAC/Amp chip. It features a 32bit 384 kHz "quad" DAC stage, which is obviously way overspecced for audio frequencies. ]My criteria for a smartphone are:1) Must have SD card slot for big FLAC music collection.2) Must have replaceable battery, and must have availability of extra large capacity batteries!3) Must have headphone jack to drive headsets and classic car AUX inputs. Bonus for higher quality audio circuitry!As a result of this thread I've been looking at what's avaliable, I've ended up ordering a V20 to have a closer look at - on paper, I like it a lot for my use case!The Galaxy Xcover comes close, but because nobody makes extended size batteries for it (yet, at least) it isn't ideal for me. I'm guessing that this model will catch on eventually, it is probably still a little too new to have developed a supporting ecosystem of extended batteries!

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2021, 03:49:15 pm
content: Quote from: NiHaoMike on December 11, 2021, 03:20:56 pmIf you look at the article in the link, it appears to be the "It-girls" that find the wires satisfyingly bohemian!

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2021, 03:57:54 pm
content: Quote from: ogden on December 11, 2021, 03:33:21 pmI do the same thing, except I do carry (smaller) over-ear headphones on the go too, because I find earbuds intensely uncomfortable. I also have two older cars with AUX inputs. One of them does support Bluetooth, SD cards, etc., but the sound quality of the AUX input is significantly better (when sourcing from a quality external FLAC player). I have high hopes for the LG v20, let's see how that works out!

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2021, 04:10:34 pm
content: QuoteDon't know if I think that is good or bad - on the one hand, as you say, you always have charged earphones, but on the other phone battery life can be an issue without some external thing draining it on the sly.

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2021, 04:37:24 pm
content: There is a public datasheet of this DAChttps://www.esstech.com/products-overview/digital-to-analog-converters/low-power-dacs-and-socs-to-headphone-socs/Built-in headphone amplifier, voltnuts wouldn't approve. No specs at loading less than 300Ω.No explanation of Quad DAC technology, but it's "acclaimed"

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2021, 05:11:36 pm
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on December 11, 2021, 03:49:15 pmThinking about that some more, I guess it would make sense for IT girls to want something that "just works" when they're used to working on stuff that keeps refusing to work.Quote from: dunkemhigh on December 11, 2021, 04:10:34 pmTurn that around, make the case bigger and have it double as an external battery for the phone.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2021, 05:11:42 pm
content: Quote from: magic on December 11, 2021, 04:37:24 pmInteresting, thanks for linking! - looks like the chip has its own built-in charge pump to generate the positive and negative supplies for the output amplifiers, I was wondering how they would do that...The data sheet does say -106dB THD+N, 300mV RMS into 32 ohms. Seems respectable enough? Definitely comparable to my stand-alone FLAC player...

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2021, 05:22:59 pm
content: QuoteI think it's already been tried.

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2021, 05:35:53 pm
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on December 11, 2021, 05:11:42 pmLOL, I went straight to "analog characteristics" and completely missed the specs on the first page.Yes, that's within the usually accepted "good enough for audio" limits, but hardly state of the art performance and you don't need friggin' 32 bits for that.This output level is some 110+ dB SPL with typical IEMs, but less efficient headphones might require more.I have seen the charge pump trick before. I think they do it because:- it doubles the output swing without differential drive, which is impossible with 3-terminal headphones- the charge pump runs at high frequency so it gets away with smaller (and crappier) capacitors than those required for AC coupling the load

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2021, 09:38:42 pm
content: Quote from: magic on December 11, 2021, 05:35:53 pmYes, audio specs are often of the "if somethin's worth doing, it's worth OVERdoing" type!

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2021, 10:02:42 pm
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on December 11, 2021, 09:38:42 pmIndeed. I'm a bit confused about the balanced 2.5 mm headphone connector. Apparently, balanced connections are good for improved noise rejection, but is there ever an issue with noise on a headphone cable?

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2021, 10:31:36 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on December 11, 2021, 10:02:42 pmRarely an issue for headphones, but for amplifiers it's a big problem especially if the source device is connected to the noisy power ground. Apparently, automotive amplifiers have solved that issue by using differential amplifiers for the 3.5mm inputs. Not as good as a proper differential link, but automotive has been an acoustically noisy environment so it was good enough. EVs have changed that - in slow traffic or stopped at a light, they're nearly silent. Newer car radios have USB ports which finally provided a digital input as well as improve integration with portable devices. Or just use a USB drive for music - why waste expensive storage where cheap storage is plenty good enough?

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2021, 10:34:55 pm
content: Dunno, go ask on head-fiRealistically,- you gain some fractional stereo separation (no shared ground return), probably irrelevant due to the resistances involved- you get to use different upstream gear - possibly the biggest difference which actually exists

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2021, 10:44:12 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on December 11, 2021, 10:02:42 pmTheoretically, if one channel is playing very loud and the other is dead silent, you could get some cross talk from one earbud to the other if the cable has a common ground and significant resistance?Googling returned an apparent yes:https://www.soundonsound.com/sound-advice/q-it-normal-get-crosstalk-appearing-headphonesBut the problem becomes negligible if four wires are used, so the two "ears" do not share a common return cable.In other words, this is a non-issue with decent headphones... looks like more audiophoolery, to some extent.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2021, 10:50:21 pm
content: Quote from: NiHaoMike on December 11, 2021, 10:31:36 pmA good hack for circumventing this problem in a car is to use an audio signal tranformer to galvanically isolate the signal between the source and the destination device. Miracle cure, in many cases.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2021, 11:20:28 pm
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on December 11, 2021, 10:50:21 pmOpamps and a few well matched resistors are a lot cheaper than a decent audio transformer.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2021, 11:41:10 pm
content: Quote from: NiHaoMike on December 11, 2021, 11:20:28 pmDoes that solve ground loop issues though? Other than using optical coupling of some kind, I can't think of an alternative to a transformer for that.

author: ogden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2021, 05:28:47 am
content: Quote from: NiHaoMike on December 11, 2021, 10:31:36 pmRight. It gives better price/SNR, option to use unipolar supply with push-pull amp on the output - especially good for portable players. Also 2.5mm/4.4mm balanced output is compatible to balanced XLR inputs of hi-end audio gear.

author: ogden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2021, 09:51:31 am
content: Quote from: magic on December 11, 2021, 04:37:24 pmI wonder - maybe quad DAC is about using two stereo DAC's, one for each channel - to get better separation between channels?

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2021, 11:00:35 am
content: Apparently something like that.https://www.esstech.com/ess-technology-brings-advanced-audiophile-features-to-mobile-devices-for-the-first-time/QuoteFun fact: whenever there is an integrated amplifier in something, they point out how it is capable of driving "professional high impedance headphones" but don't mention "consumer low impedance headphones" too much

author: ogden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2021, 11:34:01 am
content: Quote from: magic on December 12, 2021, 11:00:35 amHigh impedance pro headphones need much higher output level to achieve specified sound pressure level. Owners of low impedance consumer stuff most likely don't care - their headphones are overdriven or not

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2021, 12:31:11 pm
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on December 11, 2021, 11:41:10 pmWith sufficiently well matched resistors, the CMRR of a differential amplifier is more than good enough.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2021, 02:00:49 pm
content: It will be interesting to see how this chip/phone compares to a dedicated audio player. I'd be surprised if it comes close to Wolfson WM8740 DACs coupled with a good external amp - but it has a chance of being quite decent!

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2021, 08:19:39 pm
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on December 11, 2021, 11:41:10 pmIt is not galvanically isolated like a transformer or optical coupling is, but a difference or instrumentation amplifier does remove the ground loop. I have done it this way many times.Quote from: NiHaoMike on December 12, 2021, 12:31:11 pmJust 1% resistors for a worse case common mode rejection of 34 dB is usually good enough. Only a moderate amount of common mode rejection is required in most cases to make a huge difference.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2021, 08:49:43 pm
content: Quote from: NiHaoMike on December 12, 2021, 12:31:11 pmI will definitely try that (thanks @David Hess as well).The audio transformers sold for this purpose on Amazon did not measure well... to put it mildly!It shouldn't be hard to make an op amp work better than that...

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2021, 09:16:00 pm
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on December 12, 2021, 08:49:43 pmIf you need better rejection, then 0.1% resistors are inexpensive, but the AC common mode rejection becomes more important and will need to be adjusted using a trimmer capacitor. I have only seen instrumentation go to this much trouble. Audio applications do not often need this level of performance.Below is an example of the common mode rejection of a Tektronix 7A22 differential amplifier which has performance limitations from the same mechanisms as an instrumentation or difference amplifier. The fall in CMR at low frequencies is caused by using input AC coupling capacitors. If AC input coupling is required, then there is another way to do it. The lower curves (10^3 is 60 dB) are similar to what would be seen with an audio instrumentation amplifier with 0.1% resistor matching. The fall in CMR starting at 1kHz is caused by mismatch in the AC CMR and shows why adjustment with a trimming capacitor would be required. 1% resistor matching would put the CMR below the bottom of the graph at about 10^1.7 or 50 where no trimming of the AC CMR would be required.Good audio transformers have their own limitations which makes using an instrumentation or difference amplifier a very competitive solution if galvanic isolation is not required.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2021, 10:35:50 pm
content: Quote from: David Hess on December 13, 2021, 09:16:00 pmThat makes sense - if the capacitances in the balanced "legs" of the difference amp are not matched, things will go more and more pear shaped as the frequency goes up... maybe even causing instability?

author: ogden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2021, 11:09:42 pm
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on December 13, 2021, 10:35:50 pmReactance of capacitor decreases at higher frequencies. Meaning the higher frequency - the less important is "legs" capacitor  matching.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 14, 2021, 01:26:07 am
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on December 13, 2021, 10:35:50 pmThat is right although instability is no more likely than any other feedback circuit. The 7A22 example I showed has much more complicated input networks than would typically be found in an instrumentation or difference amplifier which is why the residual AC CMR is not trimmed out, so could be regarded as a worst case situation. An audio instrumentation or difference amplifier should be better with AC trimming.Quote from: ogden on December 13, 2021, 11:09:42 pmI think you mean the opposite? As the reactance drops due to increased frequency, the capacitance dominates the gain and common mode rejection.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 22, 2022, 05:19:51 pm
content: Update on the replaceable battery thing...I got hold of a V20, and - since you can actually replace the battery in this phone - I put a bigger one in.If it makes it to the estimated end of the charge, it will have run for 22 days on a single charge - Not bad!I tried the "quad DAC" headphone port. It sounds awesome on a set of Grado SR80e headphones. Not as loud as an external amp, but the quality is there.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 22, 2022, 05:22:48 pm
content: Aren't phones supposed to be smaller than a desktop screen?

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 22, 2022, 05:24:47 pm
content: Quote from: dunkemhigh on January 22, 2022, 05:22:48 pmYeah, fixed it...

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 22, 2022, 05:25:21 pm
content: Thanks

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 22, 2022, 06:14:52 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on December 03, 2021, 02:47:35 amThere are plenty of phones glued together to the point where the quality of the phone after a repair is a bit hit or miss - depending mostly on how good the technician was who did the job. However, I have yet to see a laptop that couldn't reliably be opened by anyone with simple tools (although I've heard nasty things about some Apple products, but I never use them). A few screws usually gets you access to replace or expand disks, memory and the battery. The battery may be stabilised in its place with some glue, but this is reasonably easy to separate and replace. It only has to be functional, rather that super neat. The glue holding an entire phone together is a PITA.

author: Bassman59
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 22, 2022, 06:41:45 pm
content: Quote from: David Hess on December 13, 2021, 09:16:00 pmYou need high levels of performance when your input stage is connected to a mixer which drives a big PA.Anyway, the easy solution to the problem is to use one of the THAT differential amplifiers. Matched/trimmed resistors built in. Yes, you can degrade the performance with whatever you connect to it, but at least the amplifier is solid.

author: eti
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 23, 2022, 03:02:19 am
content: Guess... you need it explaining?