Peaceful rest for Mr. Mandela - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Stonent
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 05, 2013, 11:55:46 pm
content: Since we have several here from South Africa I wanted to extend my sympathies to them at the passing of President Mandela.

author: Dagon
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2013, 10:32:00 am
content: Indeed, RIP.

author: apelly
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 06, 2013, 10:57:33 am
content: Poor prick gave up everything for what he believed in. Bigger balls and more stamina than me by some significant margin!

author: G7PSK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2013, 12:31:55 pm
content: If the rest of us had half the spirit of Nelson Mandela the world would not be in the mess its in. Just hope his spirit/ethics live on in South Africa and spreads to the rest of the world.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2013, 03:07:50 pm
content: Quote from: G7PSK on December 06, 2013, 12:31:55 pmSpirit and ethics yes, but not his communist views.

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 06, 2013, 03:52:39 pm
content: Quote from: apelly on December 06, 2013, 10:57:33 amNot everything.I think the hundreds of people the ANC killed during their terrorist campaign were probably the ones who gave up *everything*...Mandela lived to a ripe old age and is the poster boy for the absolute truthfulness of the statement that "history is written by the victor". He'll go down as a hero. Not that he didn't do great things.... he did.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2013, 12:08:03 am
content: IMHO it takes a huge amount of strength to be in prison for such a long time as Mandela has and get out without being broken or bitter. A great man died; unfortunately we still need great men like Mandela in this world.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2013, 03:34:40 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on December 07, 2013, 12:08:03 amI think that his greatest achievement was the smooth and peaceful power transition when he took office. With a different leader it could be a blood bath.As for his communist views and his support of terrorists and brutal dictators, this is the part I miss less.

author: mtdoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2013, 03:49:03 am
content: Quote from: zapta on December 07, 2013, 03:34:40 amYeah, I know what you mean

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 07, 2013, 06:25:19 am
content: Quote from: mtdoc on December 07, 2013, 03:49:03 amHe had little love for the US it seems:http://www.buzzfeed.com/andrewkaczynski/7-nelson-mandela-quotes-you-probably-wont-see-in-the-us-medi

author: george graves
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2013, 06:54:28 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on December 07, 2013, 06:25:19 amThe world has an odd fascination with the US, it's problems and what people think of us. Don't you people have your own problems, in your own country, to focus on? Really?And BTW - taking politics on an electronics forum, it's like me going to a knitting forum, and asking what o-scope to buy. It's kinda pointless. Just my 2 cents.

author: Stonent
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2013, 09:13:38 am
content: In general I'm against putting people into groups based on traits beyond their control whether positive or negative. I'm against discrimination as well as affirmative action.I'm glad that Mr. Mandela along with Mr. de Klerk were able to help bring an end to apartheid.But if we go into the political side of things, I am not a fan of the far left or communism.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 07, 2013, 09:29:50 am
content: Quote from: george graves on December 07, 2013, 06:54:28 amWe do, and we do. But from the outside it is endlessly amusing to watch the US, I can assure you. That alone is worth the popcorn. The US also attempts to assert it's authority over practically every nation on earth, in many ways, and that makes it a worthy target in that regard. If you didn't poke your nose into other people's business and dominate the affairs of the planet, then people wouldn't care nearly as much.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2013, 10:46:20 am
content: Quote from: zapta on December 07, 2013, 03:34:40 amI assume you -like many Americans- think anything with 'social' in it is a form of communism...I guess you never heard of good Christian values like helping eachother.Regarding the US I'm with Dave. If you ever see the movies Borat and Bruno you are left wondering why Sacha Baron-Cohen's pranks only work well in the US.

author: GK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2013, 02:05:09 pm
content: I think Mr Hitchens is mostly correct here:http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/fighting_words/2006/11/kazakh_like_me.html

author: GK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2013, 02:54:57 pm
content: Quotehttp://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/foreigners/2013/12/nelson_mandela_and_the_anc_south_africa_needs_new_leaders.html

author: John Coloccia
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2013, 03:34:37 pm
content: Oh good...another USA bash fest. Considering how much of our population is immigrants, including my parents, if we're so horrible how come everyone keeps coming here? No one seems to mind the vast amounts of aid we send all over the world....3 times more as a percentage of GDP than Australia, incidentally. No one seems to mind our military when it's on their side....again, Australia seems to really like our jets and things...We mostly exert pressure through financial means....reducing aid, things like that. If so much of the world wasn't so damn needy, we'd have a lot less influence, wouldn't we? And where would Europe be today if the US didn't stick their nose in and keep the Soviets in check all those years? No one seemed to mind our nosiness then. Give me a break. You guys have very short memories. You also seem to forget about European imperialism. You may also want to consider how many of your own countries have been side by side with us for much of what you're criticizing.But whatever. Growing sentiment in the US is towards isolationism. There's already quite a number of people that would like to see us pull out of the UN entirely, myself included, and growing. Personally, I would pull out of NATO too since it gets us absolutely nothing except a promise to bail out Europe....again.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2013, 04:20:13 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on December 07, 2013, 10:46:20 amYou are confusing giving from your own money (charity) with giving with other people money (theft). Nothing is noble in robbing peter to pay paul.Quote from: nctnico on December 07, 2013, 10:46:20 amOnly in the US? Obviously you are not a fan.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2013, 04:52:56 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on December 07, 2013, 09:29:50 amThere is strain of US politics called 'isolationism' that preaches exactly that.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_non-interventionismThe problem starts when somebody is begging for help, be it Churhill, the rebels in Syria or the refugees in the philippines, and then it becomes a moral dilemma.

author: strangelovemd12
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2013, 04:53:26 pm
content: Quote from: John Coloccia on December 07, 2013, 03:34:37 pmI just found out some real fun stuff the other day. If you read our (US) aid bills you find things like stipulations that foreign food aid be sourced from US suppliers and be shipped by US firms, whereas other countries will shop around internationally and get the most calories/$ into aid countries. We've set it up so that a very large portion of our "aid" money actually gets thrown back into US companies. If you follow the flow of food aid money an upsetting portion of it flows from people within 25% of the poverty line (on either side) and towards people with the lowest effective tax rate, who are typically earning 6-8 figures.On the personal opinion side of things, I think the "aid bills are theft" argument falls apart in a (representative) democracy. If we're going to surrender our ideological idiosyncrasies in the belief that a group is wiser than its sum members, that's the sort of shit we're giving up. Now if a dictator gave to foreign aid it would be theft.I guess a discussion of social issues is the most fitting content for this thread.

author: John Coloccia
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2013, 05:07:14 pm
content: Quote from: strangelovemd12 on December 07, 2013, 04:53:26 pmI don't have a problem with foreign aid. I think it's a good thing, in fact. My problem is with this notion of "Evil America". I'm a little tired of it, especially from the very people who have and continue to reap the rewards of our policies over the years, and who have participated and supported our efforts in the vast majority of cases. Some people here seem to think that their countries are pure as the driven snow and are the epitome of high class and culture when in fact it's more a case of abandoning the problems they helped create and instead concentrating their efforts on Eurovision. Americans have developed some sort of guilt complex while the rest of the world has developed a superiority complex. The truth is not so simplistic as that.

author: Tepe
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2013, 05:11:56 pm
content: Quote from: zapta on December 07, 2013, 04:52:56 pmWell, that moral dilemma stopped being that the moment some other Europeans resolved it for you by declaring you war.

author: strangelovemd12
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2013, 05:19:38 pm
content: @JohnYeah, the public image/persona of countries on an international level is a funny thing. PITA to analyze though. I'd rather troubleshoot something that runs on nuts or volts.

author: mtdoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2013, 06:14:29 pm
content: Anyone who travels extensively and interacts with ordinary people in different countries (ie. not just staying in hotels and doing tourist things) finds out pretty quickly that people are the same everywhere.As far as the sins of the USA - as a country it is no better or worse than other imperial power throughout history. It's just human nature - those in power always seek to extend it and do whatever it takes to maintain it. The scale of the US abuse of their power is simply an artifact of where we are in history - globalization, etc.Foreign aid is a bit of a red herring. Some of it is well intentioned but much of it is just another means to an end -(i.e Neocolonialism).IMHO the real issue now is corporate power and abuse. It's the multinational corporations and banking conglomerates that are really calling the shots and the US military has just become its muscle. The flames of nationalism, political ideologies and religious passions are flamed when it suits their purpose. Those who cry "communism" every time any attempt is made to right their wrongs make the perfect pawns for their global chess game.Mandela was a great man and those who try to drag him down by belittling his attempts at bucking the global capitalist hierarchy should be ashamed. But it should also not be forgotten the the anti-apartheid movement that ultimately led to his release was ultimately successful in no small part due to involvement of US university students in the 1980s that pressured university endowments and US corporations to divest from SA.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2013, 06:19:31 pm
content: Quote from: John Coloccia on December 07, 2013, 05:07:14 pmIt's the blame-america-first attitude that is typical to the left, domestic and international.They are driven by a victim/opresor narrative that makes success an evil thing, be it a person, a corporation or a country.

author: Bored@Work
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2013, 06:25:51 pm
content: Quote from: zapta on December 07, 2013, 06:19:31 pmDoes it hurt to be so stupid?

author: kxenos
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2013, 06:54:34 pm
content: Quote from: zapta on December 07, 2013, 06:19:31 pmSuccess is defined on the basis of what you're after. Given that you consider US situation a success, your goals are obvious. Being considered an international thief and bully is not what I call a successful policy. Rushing to wherever there is interest, waving a gun or holding a stick and a carrot and considering this a success is typical to right-wingers, domestic and international...As far as money go, divide national debt by the number of households and then you'll see in what kind of bubble you're into. The sad part is that some people actually believe that shit. Like the ones that once believed in social revolutions to establish commons...Edit:I might come out a little stronger than intended here. I'm not against you. The thing that ticks me off with US foreign policy is that they try to justify their decisions on the basis of morality and justice. And I'm a little bit sensitive when it comes to justice. I don't get it. Why go into such lengths? You're the f*cking superpower, f*ck 'em! I would prefer that they say "we invaded there because we needed the oil. Instead, they try to give their decisions a moral value. The citizens then believe(?) the false claims and the rest of the world thinks that americans are either stupid (for believing) or jointly liable for their government's acts.But anyway, this thread is about Nelson Mandela, not US foreign policy. But this shows that people have strong feelings about it. Regards.

author: Stonent
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2013, 08:40:05 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on December 07, 2013, 10:46:20 amI'm against mandatory government enforced charity. I'm strongly for charity by choice.

author: JoeO
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2013, 10:00:24 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on December 07, 2013, 09:29:50 amSo Dave, are you still upset that Americans "poked our noses" into Australia's business to save you from the Japanese 72 years ago?

author: Stonent
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2013, 10:18:33 pm
content: Quote from: Bored@Work on December 07, 2013, 06:25:51 pmHey now.

author: JoeO
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2013, 10:22:50 pm
content: Quote from: zapta on December 07, 2013, 06:19:31 pmI totally agree with you. If you notice, a lot of the whining comes from those who live in countries we bailed out exactly 72 years ago, today.

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2013, 10:27:11 pm
content: Quote from: JoeO on December 07, 2013, 10:22:50 pmWhile I mostly agree with you, that's really a terrible argument. The America that existed 72 years ago is very different from the one that exists today. It's perfectly valid for criticisms to exist against one and not the other.

author: Tepe
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2013, 10:37:09 pm
content: Quote from: JoeO on December 07, 2013, 10:22:50 pmBailed out? That must be why we had Soviet troops in the country until April 5, 1946.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2013, 10:43:38 pm
content: Quote from: kxenos on December 07, 2013, 06:54:34 pmThe US government (or better said: the people in real power) has been dreaming up foreign enemies to keep their subjects from noticing at how poorly the country is being run. Its a classic form of staying in power already described in the 16th century by Machiavelli in his book 'Il Principe'. The Sovjet Union collapsed and suddenly there was Al Qaeda and Taliban (the latter put there by the US BTW). And then there is the whole 'our ways are the best and everyone should follow our ways' attitude. Because of that a lot of US based companies fail misserably or have lots of trouble when trying to do business in other countries.You are right about the bubble. The national dept is about $50,000,- per US citizen. Way worse than the situation in Greece at its worst moment. And when the bubble in the US collapses there is no way to turn the tide.

author: JoeO
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2013, 10:45:36 pm
content: Quote from: Tepe on December 07, 2013, 10:37:09 pmGeez, I am sorry that we could not save every country from every evil that exists. We were tied up saving Australia, Burma, India, Vietnam, China, England, France, Italy and other countries in Europe.Maybe this had something to do with the reason the Soviets stayed in Denmark after the war:"A further 4,000 Danish volunteers died fighting in the German army on the Eastern Front)"

author: Tepe
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2013, 10:50:26 pm
content: Quote from: JoeO on December 07, 2013, 10:45:36 pmAwfully nice and altruistic of you.

author: Hydrawerk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2013, 11:04:14 pm
content: At least USA's people invented transistor and founded Agilent and Tektronix...

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2013, 11:15:19 pm
content: Quote from: Hydrawerk on December 07, 2013, 11:04:14 pm... and Google+.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 08, 2013, 12:27:34 am
content: Quote from: Hydrawerk on December 07, 2013, 11:04:14 pmShockley (project leader) was born in the UK and Brattain was from China. The whole idea of the transistor came from Shockley so the transistor is not invented by people from the US.

author: John Coloccia
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 08, 2013, 12:35:53 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on December 08, 2013, 12:27:34 amMore revisionist history...or maybe just lack of history. Shockley moved to the US when he was 3. Brattain was born in China...to American parents...and was back in the US the next year. Bardeen was born in Wisconsin. All three were raised in the US, and schooled in the US....and 2 of them by American parents. One of them had foreign parents, but hey...so do I. This perfectly underscores the problem, though, of a vast culture of half truths and willful (or not) ignorance.

author: GK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 08, 2013, 12:44:50 am
content: Quote from: Tepe on December 07, 2013, 10:37:09 pmhttp://www.spiritoffreedom.org/You might want to put some thought into where most of Europe would be today if it wasn't for American intervention against Soviet Communism in WWII. For one thing Germany certainly wouldn't be the economic powerhouse it is today, bailing out half of their neighbors.

author: apelly
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 08, 2013, 12:47:10 am
content: Someone should bring up religion about now.

author: John Coloccia
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 08, 2013, 12:54:08 am
content: Quote from: apelly on December 08, 2013, 12:47:10 amOr worse...current flow through a capacitor.

author: dr.diesel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 08, 2013, 12:58:24 am
content: Quote from: John Coloccia on December 08, 2013, 12:54:08 amOr more importantly, gun rights.

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 08, 2013, 01:01:31 am
content: vi vs emacs, anybody?Oops, wrong forum.

author: dr.diesel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 08, 2013, 01:02:55 am
content: Quote from: c4757p on December 08, 2013, 01:01:31 amWithout a doubt, vi.

author: apelly
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 08, 2013, 01:03:53 am
content: Quote from: c4757p on December 08, 2013, 01:01:31 amDon't evenstartme!

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 08, 2013, 01:04:47 am
content: Quote from: dr.diesel on December 08, 2013, 01:02:55 amGladsomeonehere has common sense.

author: John Coloccia
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 08, 2013, 01:05:13 am
content: Quote from: dr.diesel on December 08, 2013, 12:58:24 amWe can combine the two and debate rail gun rights.There's current in the wires...but not in the capacitor....where did it come from, and should I be allowed to have any???

author: GeoffS
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 08, 2013, 01:57:18 am
content: Lets get it back on topic please.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 08, 2013, 03:12:11 am
content: Quote from: GeoffS on December 08, 2013, 01:57:18 am+1 for Mandela to rest in peace.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 08, 2013, 11:25:51 am
content: Thanks for the thoughts Stonent. Funny enough both sides in the conflict were both right and wrong on many things, and there has been a lot of coming to terms over the years on things, but not on others. Good and bad on both sides, and both have things they do not want revealed about things done and not done.

author: lemmegraphdat
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 09, 2013, 01:32:15 am
content: Resentment is like drinking poison and then hoping it'll kill your enemies.Nelson Mandela