PSoC: CY8CKIT-059 first impression - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: technix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2017, 03:18:07 pm
content: I have received my dose of PSoC. And it is bitter, at least for now.First off: CY8CKIT-059 have literally the lamest package I have ever seen. It is just a piece of thick cardboard with a hole cut in it, and some adhesive paper covering the hole to hold the board inside.Getting the board out - well there is a PCB USB connector. How much more money would it cost to put an actual USB connector there? Just use a micro-B connector as you do on the very other end of the same PCB. Thinning the board down to 1.6mm will more than make up the cost of adding a connector. PCB connectors rarely get reliable unless you put the damn metal shell around it, which actually holds the tab against the board. It also damages the mating connector by putting excessive stress on the spring tabs on the shell. Now I have to either find a shell that fits the board, or solder a SMD USB Type A connector on this mess. Of course I have to solder the connector shell too so some solder mask on the back have to be filed off to make the required pads. Ugh.Soldering the pins: The board is thicker than usual, so pin soldering is a bit more difficult. Also why is the way too commonly used RESET button and JTAG connector missing?Now the software. PSoC requires the use of a Windows-only software. This is really a non-starter for me but for the sake of experiment I grabbed an evaluation copy of Windows 10 and installed it in a virtual machine. Speaking of, using USB devices though USB pass through in virtual machines isn't that smooth as you think. Installation speed is acceptable though. Now getting into the interface I am utterly confused - this really is an IDE too hard to work with. Well let me load up an demo project... Well now I am in for even more confusion. The software looks like an awkward combination of some old version of Quartus and Visual Studio. And even though I am using the latest PSoC creator 4.1 it still does not support HiDPI display and looks HORRIBLE on my 4K monitor. A high resolution monitor can make good experience better, and make bad experience even worse. Ugh.And do I spot a solder bridge on the CY8C5868LTI on the KitProg section of the board? The manufacturing quality...

author: ^_^
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2017, 03:52:47 pm
content: You do seem to have high standardsI own a different CY8CKIT that also came with cardboard package and has USB-PCB connector and I don't care much about that.The kit is for evaluation after all, the package is disposable and you can use USB extension cable to connect to the board.Some manufacturers give you very short USB cable which is even worse if you're not gonna use it and it's a wasteAnd, they have used a way thicker PCB which is pretty cool and feels durable.Anyway I think the impression will come when you actually program something useful.I'd also like to mention that most MCU IDEs are Windows based

author: technix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2017, 04:01:46 pm
content: Quote from: ^_^ on June 23, 2017, 03:52:47 pmThis type of board connector relies on the springs on the mating connector to hold the board against the contacts. It wears down my connectors, extension cable or not, extremely rapidly.Quote from: ^_^ on June 23, 2017, 03:52:47 pmAt least that is terminated with a standard shelled USB connector that I can attach an extension cable to. The STC U8W-Mini even have its USB Type-A connector soldered directly to the PCB (much like an oversized thumb drive) but I can still use extension cables without worrying about it being worn down.Quote from: ^_^ on June 23, 2017, 03:52:47 pmFalse. IDE is one thing, toolchain is another. For most microcontrollers there are cross platform toolchains available (mosty GCC based, and there is xc8 and SDCC) which can be plugged into a generic IDE like Xcode or Eclipse CDT. PSoC requires the use of its IDE to perform some significant portion of the programming (especially the built-in PLD) which makes it a dead end.

author: technix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2017, 07:04:04 pm
content: I have to perform a reliability hack, adding a normal USB Type-A connector on top of the PCB USB connector just so it won't either further damage my ports or disconnect due to poor contact. This hack involved filing two notches into the PCB to allow the shell to be crimped along the side, expose some metal on the bottom later ground plane to allow the shell to be soldered on the bottom side, soldering the connector to both the exposed pads on the bottom I just created and the pins on the top, and dropping superglue down the seams of this assembly to further secure the added on USB connector.Cypress, please revise your PCB and use a proper soldered down USB Type-A connector instead of this PCB one.

author: igendel
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2017, 04:18:34 am
content: I played a bit with PSoC in the past, and I actually liked the cardboard package of the board - plain and simple. Unlike the annoying plastic of the STM32 Nucleo, that holds the board so tight that it either flies out when you press it, or pricks your fingers with the damn sharp headers. I want to learn the how to use a board, not the proper technique of taking it out of the package without collateral damage.And the thick PCB, well it helps holding the USB contacts in placeBut I too agree that a proper connector would be nicer.

author: technix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2017, 04:37:45 am
content: Quote from: evb149 on June 24, 2017, 03:44:47 amI have those extension cables too. Those get worn down very rapidly by the PCB connectors.Quote from: evb149 on June 24, 2017, 03:44:47 amWindows does not support my hard drive setup at all, so it is out of question regardless.Quote from: evb149 on June 24, 2017, 03:44:47 amMe too. All other kits I know of have the crystal installed.Quote from: evb149 on June 24, 2017, 03:44:47 amThis defeats the point of an prototyping kit though.Quote from: evb149 on June 24, 2017, 03:44:47 amThis also defeats the purpose of concentrating all components into the single chip too.Quote from: evb149 on June 24, 2017, 03:44:47 amIt s still a worse chip than STM32 to me.

author: technix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2017, 05:03:29 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on June 24, 2017, 04:32:38 amIt is not pins 7/8/9. pins 48/49 shorted together.Quote from: blueskull on June 24, 2017, 04:32:38 amThat is an ARM 10-pin connector with full JTAG pinout. Check the schematics.Quote from: blueskull on June 24, 2017, 04:32:38 amNot supporting anything other than Windows is definitely a Cypress problem. There are way too many situations where Windows flat out won't even work in the first place: complicated hardware setups commonly seen in advanced workstations and converted servers, Mac with Fusion Drive (a common scenario with Mac Mini,) or the company have to mind iOS (especially for IoT applications.)For me my two computers each have one of the problems listed above: my desktop workstation is an advanced workstation with a complicated hard disk drive setup (yes RAID array cards are involved) and the other is a MacBook Pro which I have to keep macOS on for iOS development.Quote from: blueskull on June 24, 2017, 04:32:38 amTry the Dell P2415Q: a 24-inch display with full 4K 2160p resolution, without DPI scaling. You will feel the need of DPI scaling as the pixels are so tiny without DPI scaling you will have crazy lot of difficulty reading the screen. Ditto for Retina Mac users. Or Microsoft Surface.Quote from: blueskull on June 24, 2017, 04:32:38 amCypress don't even have the salutary box...Quote from: blueskull on June 24, 2017, 04:32:38 amWhy would I spend more money on a kit I can't really use...Quote from: blueskull on June 24, 2017, 04:32:38 amCubeMX is shit. And the IDE part is horrible too. I'll have to admit I am spoiled by Xcode (Apple built their IDE around the actual compiler they are using, so things like code sense or syntax highlighting is alarmingly accurate) but that is just horrendous to me. And it looks utterly ugly with DPI scaling. Even Eclipse CDT looks a lot better one way or another.

author: technix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2017, 05:37:53 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on June 24, 2017, 05:24:07 amNope I don't have any way to debug QFN without damaging it.Quote from: blueskull on June 24, 2017, 05:24:07 amFor me I always used the EAGLE + Eclipse CDT/Xcode stack which works everywhere (well EAGLE and Eclipse CDT at least, Xcode only works on macOS)Quote from: blueskull on June 24, 2017, 05:24:07 amBigger screen at lower resolution. No wonder you don't need DPI scaling. P2415Q have 4x as many pixels as U3011 or U2415 but smaller than U3011. That is why every pixel is so damn small and DPI scaling is a must.So you gave up some far more pleasant overall user experiences just to accomodate a few software (that also promotes bad user experience)...Quote from: blueskull on June 24, 2017, 05:24:07 amWhat gave you the indication that I found a way around it? I am going to try adding the ARM JTAG so I can try using the Eclipse CDT stack skipping the analog section entirely (at this point this chip is just a much more expensive STM32F103RCT6 to me with 5V operation, since there is no way I can get the analog up any more without the PSoC Creator.)Quote from: blueskull on June 24, 2017, 05:24:07 amI don't care a lot either but if I am using an IDE (like the damn PSoC Creator) I will compare it to Xcode.

author: technix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2017, 06:12:09 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on June 24, 2017, 05:48:14 amI have built my own color calibrator.Quote from: blueskull on June 24, 2017, 05:48:14 amThe problem is that VirtualBox crashes when a USB device is removed physically without removing it from the guest logically first. Couple that to the unreliable connector I have ranted about above you get a no-go and a ruined Windows installation. Snapshots can help but not much.

author: technix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2017, 10:17:38 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on June 24, 2017, 06:22:24 amMy Mac is an old dual-core Core i5 laptop with 8GB of RAM. It barely runs Sierra on its own, does not support 4K display, and I have ran out of hard disk drive space and I cannot afford a 960GB/1TB SSD now. VirtualBox on Linux have this crashing problem.

author: danadak
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2017, 10:25:33 am
content: Is the board thickness a choice to ruggedize use of board with pins to act as a dip,eg. the stress of multiple insertion/unseat over time ? The added thickness providingmore mechanical support, less trace lifting due to rotation of a pin in a thin board ?Just a thought. I always treat boards like this with extra caution, and minimize insertions/removals.There is of course the more expensive solution, CY8CKIT-001, which has cpu moduleswith connectors, can accommodate multiple families.Regards, Dana.

author: hendorog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2017, 10:37:56 am
content: The USB PCB connection caused me some pain as well. I ended up using an extension cable which made it just reliable enough.I also have one of these kits, which are cheaper than the 001 kit danadak mentioned and are much better than the 059 kit:http://www.cypress.com/documentation/development-kitsboards/cy8ckit-050-psoc-5lp-development-kit

author: technix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2017, 10:49:58 am
content: Quote from: hendorog on June 24, 2017, 10:37:56 amIt damages my USB extension cables too, and it is extremely unreliable. without the added connector with a shell.Quote from: hendorog on June 24, 2017, 10:37:56 amWhen the $10 kit is a disappointment (connector problem is the least of them all) why would I bother stepping up to a $100 kit?

author: hendorog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2017, 11:20:00 am
content: Quote from: technix on June 24, 2017, 10:49:58 amWell that is your call old chap, not mineJust highlighting that you can get a 'pro' kit for $100 instead of $250...I got mine before the 059 kit was introduced and I've used it a lot.

author: technix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2017, 12:05:53 pm
content: Quote from: hendorog on June 24, 2017, 11:20:00 amWith $100 I can get a fairly advanced third party i.MX6ULL or Samsung S3C6410 kit...

author: Bruce Abbott
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2017, 09:08:36 pm
content: Quote from: technix on June 24, 2017, 10:49:58 amWhen you set yourself up for disappointment....You knew (or should have known) about most of the 'issues' before you bought it. PCB pads for USB, no reset button or JTAG? Obvious just by looking at a picture of it. IDE doesn't work in Linux? Well documented, and why would you expect it to without checking?

author: technix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2017, 03:55:58 am
content: Quote from: Bruce Abbott on June 24, 2017, 09:08:36 pmThat is less than a problem and more of an annoyance. I can solder (and have soldered) those components on there already.Quote from: Bruce Abbott on June 24, 2017, 09:08:36 pmIt is the less than reliable connector that does not play nice with IDE in virtual machine. Also the IDE itself have a fairly steep learning curve.

author: westfw
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2017, 09:15:12 am
content: QuoteI think their packaging is brilliant! I am always sad when I get a tiny little PCB in a giant shipping box, where the shipping may have cost more than the PCB. (worst example was some Freescale board that came with a wall wart and half-a-dozen different plug adapters (for different countries.)(heavy ones, too.)) If I'm buying an eval board, that's NOT what I want to be spending my money on!

author: donotdespisethesnake
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2017, 09:44:51 am
content: Quote from: technix on June 23, 2017, 03:18:07 pmI agree with a lot of those observations, the PSOC boards are simply not as nice as many other cheap dev boards. But you're gonna get a lot of flak from the PSOC fanboys...I sometimes wonder if cults develop around things that are difficult to use, because of the supposed kudos gained by doing something difficult. Linux used to be very similar. It does seem to be a trait of many engineering types. The bigger the challenge, the more people like to crow about it.Meanwhile, there are a lot of engineers who just want to get things done simply, rather than earn skill badges.

author: alexanderbrevig
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2017, 09:46:51 am
content: I love these cheap boards. They have replaced Wiring/Arduino for me as a go-to-try-something-quickly thing. And they're cheap enough to leave them in prototypes and just order a couple more.On my bench I have a small USB hub that I use for most programming. My electronics bench is "behind me" when I'm at the computer, so I just spin around and press upload and spin back to test. I'm not worried that this will break my hub, I recon it will take quite a number of inserts before it will be a problem.It fits a breadboard, the IDE and HAL I find very good for the most part, the official support is top notch. It's $10. What do you expect? They over-deliver like few other I think.

author: technix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2017, 10:45:02 am
content: Quote from: alexanderbrevig on June 25, 2017, 09:46:51 amFor me I have way too many options for such boards, so the comparison is sharp.Quote from: alexanderbrevig on June 25, 2017, 09:46:51 amMy workbench is a combined EE/CS workbench with a USB hub right between the monitor and the breadboard. So I can watch things happen on both the computer end and the device end.Quote from: alexanderbrevig on June 25, 2017, 09:46:51 amThe STM32 on adapters also fits on breadboards. I feel more comfortable with Eclipse or Xcode as my IDE. I hate vendor HAL of all forms in general - I don't use things like ASF or CubeMX or MCC or Harmony for my existing projects. So this really does not fit my style or project design.

author: technix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2017, 11:21:21 am
content: Quote from: donotdespisethesnake on June 25, 2017, 09:44:51 amAgreed. Flak already incoming, brace for impact.I just want my projects to be done in the most straightforward way. Using any complicated kits means I get locked into a platform and increased costs.

author: Back2Volts
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 25, 2017, 10:40:49 pm
content: Quote from: danadak on June 24, 2017, 10:25:33 amWouldn't the CY8CKIT-050 be a better alternative, way cheaper that the CY8CKIT-001 ?Tony

author: MT
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2017, 06:53:53 pm
content: Quote from: westfw on June 25, 2017, 09:15:12 amThe smaller and less of "faffed-in-bling-components" the better. A stamp size PCB + crystal +6x6mm tact for reset+ ISP connector supplying power+ some decoupling etc, and all the pins to a edge connectors deliveredin a slightly larger then a stamp esd cardboard box for symbolic 2 euro incl shipping is simply nice!

author: Bruce Abbott
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2017, 08:03:54 pm
content: Quote from: technix on June 25, 2017, 03:55:58 amOh sorry, I thought you were complaining about the software being Windows only. I think most modern IDEs suck, particularly those that are based on Java or Microsoft Visual Studio. The only real problem I have with PSOC creator is that it's too easy to crash (probably when I do something wrong, but even so...).

author: Dielectric
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2017, 08:54:46 pm
content: I've used a ton of the PSoC eval kits for prototypes, and I found that the PCB is actually a little too thin for a reliable connection. A little bit of regular electrical tape on the back side fixes it really well.

author: EBRAddict
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2017, 09:31:48 pm
content: To each his own. I like them, I usually snap off the programmer before putting it in a project.