Automatically flash all chips in a tube? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: pastaclub
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2023, 03:39:54 pm
content: Is there a machine that can automatically extract SMT chips (like SOIC16) out of a tube, connect the pins (without soldering), flash the chips, and put them back into another tube?I need something like that to program OTP microcontrollers and could not find such a machine. I have an idea how to build one myself with pogo pins, two linear actuators, an arduino and a few 3D printed parts... but if somebody has already done it, I'd like to save time and just buy it. Unless it's crazy expensive.

author: janoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2023, 04:27:30 pm
content: If you need a significant quantity of those chips (why would you want to automate it otherwise?) order them pre-programmed. Vendors like Digikey, Microchip and many others offer such service.It is certainly cheaper, easier and faster than trying to run your own robot doing this - unless you are setting up a mass production line and need to program many thousands of these. But even then it will likely be cheaper to order them preprogrammed from the manufacturer.

author: Ian.M
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2023, 04:34:38 pm
content: You OK with four or five digit USD prices?If so, google:automated universal programmer tube feeder

author: pastaclub
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2023, 04:38:27 pm
content: These are Padauk OTP chips. Padauk doesn't offer the service. Even their minimum order quantity for the chips is 50000 (they will sell you smaller quantities because they are being nice, but they won't flash them for you).I need to flash approximately 4000 chips, i.e. 20 tubes of SOIC8 and 60 tubes of SOIC16. Seems like a sweet spot where such a robot would be nice to have. Even if I have to make it myself, that would certainly be more fun and probably take less time than manually flashing 4000 chips.

author: alm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2023, 06:18:55 pm
content: At these quantities, wouldn't switching to a more expensive micro that's better suited for small scale manufacturing, like Microchip who will pre-program at relatively small quantities, make more economic sense than using these "cheap" micros and then spending a lot of time and resources to program them?

author: AndyC_772
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2023, 06:49:52 pm
content: I'd just use a 3rd party programming service. Here in the UK we haveAction Circuits, but I'm sure you can find somewhere more local.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2023, 06:56:14 pm
content: Why not program on-board as part of your test process?

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2023, 06:57:15 pm
content: A problem with services which program devices from tubes into tubes is physical damage, mostly bent pins. The best people keep the damage pretty low, but its not zero, and it increases the number of assembled PCBs which will fail. Using things like QFNs, rather than QFPs certainly helps. However, it is this issue which has stopped the separation of programming and PCB assembly becoming a wider practice. Putting things out to contract assembly and contract test, but not letting other people get their grubby mits on your code, is certainly a meaningful incentive to go down this path, but you have to accept the drawbacks.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2023, 07:00:38 pm
content: Quote from: AndyC_772 on October 20, 2023, 06:49:52 pmWhen I've enquired about these,the cost was comparable to the chip itself - ISTR something like £0.50 per chip in high hundreds, don't recall which chip.Microchip has a very low cost service for their parts - this could offset the higher parts cost in some cases.Digikey don't offer programming outside the US, as you might be asking them to program export-controlled encryption in your tiny 8 bit MCU

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2023, 07:05:07 pm
content: This seems like something that could fairly easily be added to a pick & place machine, as that already handles the de-packaging side of things.If done smartly, the programming time wouldn't slow it down much as it could be placing other parts while a device is being programmed.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2023, 07:28:24 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on October 20, 2023, 07:00:38 pmGetting the silicon vendor to program chips is the ideal solution, as they can do this at A&T time with near zero cost and zero added mechanical (mis)handling. However, they can only do this for volumes big enough to handle at A&T, and feed through the supply chain. Any programming downstream of that is inherently costly.

author: MR
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2023, 07:55:07 pm
content: If you need preprogrammed padauk chips I can handle that with my pick and place machine.I have written the pick and place software myself for it so I can virtually do anything with it, I have several programmers here.I use Padauk ICs myself for some projects.

author: AndyBeez
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2023, 08:02:32 pm
content: Can you flash the chips after picking and placing via a ICSP/JTAG port, as part of the manufacturing verify process? This would mean any last minute firmware changes could be rolled out after a pre production batch is tested.Otherwise, you can get SOIC to DIP ZIF sockets, and your partner to do the tedious flashing job.

author: MR
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2023, 08:12:06 pm
content: Depends which Padauk chips he uses, some of them are only OTP. Also they have no JTAG port, but a vendor specific interface.

author: pastaclub
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2023, 09:17:47 pm
content: Quote from: AndyBeez on October 20, 2023, 08:02:32 pmYes, that's what I am currently doing. Actually they are OTP, as pointed out by MR. There is no JTAG, it takes 5 pins to program them... and programming will fail if you have other components connected to these pins. Unpressed switches will work of course, so will anything with a high enough resistance, but it's still inconvenient. Also, VDD will go way beyond 5V during programming which kills most 3V3 components, so you will need solder jumpers that are later closed during wave soldering. It works but it's not ideal.

author: pastaclub
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2023, 09:22:10 pm
content: Quote from: MR on October 20, 2023, 07:55:07 pmThat's cool! I have thought about that too, but then decided that the most universal solution is to do it even before the PnP and put the programmed chips into a new tube. But I would like to understand how you solved it. Are you placing them into a ZIF socket and pressing the socket down with the nozzle? And then after programming, picking them again and placing them on the PCB? Does the PnP machine get feedback from the programmer (i.e. can it detect when programming fails)?

author: MR
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2023, 09:37:03 pm
content: In your case I don't need to place the component I could put it back into a tube if needed.I can just pick the ICs from a tube put it into a programmer take it and put it into another empty one if needed.I only used the PMS150C for my projects so far, but I also have quite some stock of those ICs now they're just perfect for small tasks.A few years ago I moved from Germany to Taiwan and Covid19 made me to stay here (since the situation was better than in Germany back then). Since I needed a Pick and Place machine here I just built my own one, it all has quite some history I collected my knowledge from a troublesome commercial PNP machine a few years ago.How many ICs do you need to program?

author: Smokey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2023, 12:49:24 am
content: Quote from: coppice on October 20, 2023, 06:57:15 pmWhat does a QFN with a bent pin look like?

author: MR
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2023, 06:59:27 am
content: The most common ICs are QFPs from Padauk I think. Not sure if they have QFNs in their product list, possibly if the volume justifies it.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2023, 06:36:38 pm
content: Quote from: Smokey on October 21, 2023, 12:49:24 amThey're chips. They, er.....chip.