How long do you think Aglient scope upgrade paths will be available? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: seb1982
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2013, 05:27:39 pm
content: Hi!I'm thinking of buying my first oscilloscope, and I have to say that as someone new to the hobby, I've been somewhat amazed by how the (still bloody expensive) "cheap" product manufacturers seem perfectly happy to rip customers off with substandard products. And how the "decent" manufacturers are happy to slap their label on a piece of Chinese crap and charge three times the price for it. How on earth is it acceptable?!Anyway, that said, I've decided to save up for a decent mid range scope, and I particularly like the Agilent 2000 X-series with the brilliantly comprehensive upgrade paths (70-200MHz, DSO to MSO), meaning that I can spend more money on it as and when I need the features. And the 50,000 waveform rate gives me a funny feeling in my trousers!I was just wondering if anyone knew how long companies like Aglient keep upgrade paths available on the whole - does it tend to be for only as long as the model is manufactured, or do they continue to support them for some years? I really have no idea.Anyway, I've rambled on for long enough - thanks everyone!

author: jpb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2013, 05:37:02 pm
content: My guess would be that they will support the software changes for a long time as they only have to provide keys and make money. This covers all the changes to the 2000X series I think including the bandwidth upgrades.They may put more of a time limit on changes that require factory alteration such as upgrading a 3000X from 500MHz to 1GHz.

author: Bored@Work
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2013, 05:43:21 pm
content: If they haven't made an official commitment (I didn't check if Agilent has or hasn't) they can withdraw that offer at any time, maybe only limited by some local laws. I.e. if a frigging MBA has a bad hair day the offer might be withdrawn.Even with a commitment a company might have the balls and withdraw the offer, when some frigging MBA's Excel sheet tells him or her it is cheaper to piss off a few customers than to keep up the offer.In general, I don't buy because of extensibility. I learned that lesson the hard way decades ago with PCs. A device must have everything I need right when buying, and the price must be right for that feature set. I rate extensibility with exactly $0, and I am not willing to pay extra for it.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2013, 06:08:55 pm
content: I think the 6000 series is something like 10 years old now & still supported - a lot of investment goes into a new design so they're not going to replace it any time soon.As mentioned above, as many upgrades are software, they no longer have the issue of parts stock etc.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2013, 06:19:40 pm
content: Quote from: Bored@Work on April 01, 2013, 05:43:21 pmThat's true. The other question is how much the upgrades will cost. For example, a bandwidth upgrade may look attractive today but say in four or five years it's much more likely to be cheaper to just sell the scope and buy the successor model with the features that are needed.QuoteI fully agree. I buy kit with the options I think need over the whole usage period, and after that the scope most likely will be replaced anyways.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2013, 06:23:52 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on April 01, 2013, 06:08:55 pmYes, but the 6000 Series is a bit more expensive than the DSOX2000, and was developed when most components for entry level scopes were much more expensive.It's highly unlikely that the DSOX2000 Series will see 10 years. Maybe five.QuoteYes, but they still can (and use) these upgrades as incentive to buy the current model today and later, when the successor is on the market, the options will either be withdrawn or priced up to incentivize people from buying the new model.

author: jpb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2013, 07:33:32 pm
content: Even now the options are very expensive except when on special offer with a new scope. The cost of the option is in the same ball park as the purchase of a stand alone instrument.They are perhaps best viewed as something to be negotiated at the time of purchase.Once you have the scope you are a captive market. This isn't peculiar to Agilent, any specific upgrade will cost a lot.For example, the MSO upgrade is £493+VAT = £591:61 on the Agilent site. This is for just 8 digital channels. On top of this you will then need to get licenses for the decode options I think which are not currently listed on the UK site because up till now they didn't even have decode on the X2000 series. I assume each license will be at least £200 so for I2C, SPI and UART you're probably looking at £1200plus.Prices can change arbitrarily. I've a LeCroy scope and was thinking of getting the LeCroy LogicStudio. A few months ago this cost £953 at Conrad. I looked again about a week ago and the price has shot up to £1356. What is odd is that they also list this as the euro price on their German site.Of course there are a lot of cheaper alternative logic analysers (USB based) and the likelihood is you'd go for one of those instead.

author: Hydrawerk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2013, 08:10:10 pm
content: Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on April 01, 2013, 06:23:52 pmWhy?? The Tektronix TDS2000 and TDS3000 have been manufactured for more that 10 years and they are not going to stop it.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2013, 05:46:59 am
content: Quote from: jpb on April 01, 2013, 07:33:32 pmForget Conrad, they are pants. Even in Germany (where prices are usually a bit higher than elsewhere in Europe) it's rarely attractive to buy from them, and even less so if you're in the UK as their UK business just seem to replace EUR with GBP while completely ignoring the exchange rate.And of course you could still import it from the US, which might save quite a bit of money.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2013, 05:50:39 am
content: Quote from: Hydrawerk on April 01, 2013, 08:10:10 pmYes, they are over 10 years old models, but on the other side they don't make Tektronix much money. The thing is that since Tek is part of Danaher there's a certain reluctance to invest in refreshed models.Agilent won't do the same with the DSOX2000.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 02, 2013, 07:22:06 am
content: Quote from: seb1982 on April 01, 2013, 05:27:39 pmIt's acceptable if people chose to buy it.QuoteAgilent will continue to support for the product for quite a few years after it's discontinued. They will even list on their website the date when that product will no longer to supported.Of course, firmware updates etc tend to fall off for products no current but still supported.The 2000X model with Megazoon IV is now 2 years old. I expect them to milk the platform for at least another two years before the next generation comes out. They are likely working on Megazoom V now.As for software updates, I see no reason why they won't take your money as long as the product is still officially supported. I'd expect another 5 years at the very least, very likely 10+

author: jpb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2013, 05:09:06 pm
content: Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on April 02, 2013, 05:46:59 amThe problem in the UK is there aren't many options. Generally Conrad is cheaper than RS, Farnell and Rapid. Maplin is very restricted in what it sells and quite pricey.For my Ersa i-CON nano soldering station I went straight to the importers - Blundell and they were quite a bit cheaper than Conrad (and the others).Of course, as I mentioned on another thread, Conrad has already cost me £120 in vet's bills because they use corn starch based packing which my dog couldn't resist!

author: Bored@Work
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2013, 05:50:13 pm
content: Nothing beats Conrad France when it comes to insane priceshttp://www.conrad.fr/ce/fr/product/154081/Microcontrleur-mmoire-flash-32-kB-RAM-2-kB-botier-DIL-40-Atmel-ATMEGA32-16PU

author: djsb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2013, 05:54:56 pm
content: Why not make a cheeky offer on this?http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Agilent-PREMIUM-USED-MSOX2024A-Mixed-Signal-Oscilloscope-/190817418238?pt=BI_Oscilloscopes&hash=item2c6d9abbfeDon't forget to factor in shipping,customs charges and VAT when buying off the Agilent factory.Good luck.David.PS Price at Farnell is £2,333 + VAT

author: pe1oxp
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2013, 07:10:57 pm
content: When I ordered my Certified Prime 2000x on epay directly from Agilent, shipment was free to the Netherlands and all duties paid by them. After ordering, everything was arranged by Agilent Netherlands.Just the mentioned amount plus VAT...

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2013, 09:32:54 pm
content: Quote from: djsb on April 02, 2013, 05:54:56 pmNo shipping or customs charges as they ship via their normal sales network - only VAT

author: seb1982
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2013, 03:38:47 am
content: Thanks ever so much for all the replies, everyone - plenty of food for thought. I really appreciate it, as no-one I know has any idea about electronics (and I include myself in that statement!)Very good point about the fact that if, say, I want to upgrade bandwidth in the future (which is probably all I'd conceivably want to do), then by then the new scopes with that bandwidth will be cheaper than they are now. Add to that the fact that scopes in the UK seem to retain their price ridiculously well (see all the dodgy, "untested", knackered CRT scopes being regularly sold for hundreds of pounds on Ebay), and it seems that I'd do better just selling and upgrading as I want/need it.Which pushes me back more towards the cheaper Rigol 2000 Series. Seriously competative prices (710 Euros from Batronix in Germany for the 70MHz). I just wish they'd pull their finger out and sort the firmware issues, although I gather it doesn't really affect day-to-day use.Bloody hell, I'm going to have to make a decision soon - my thinking cap's getting worn out!Thanks again, everyone.P.S. Dave & MikesElectricStuff - I can't tell you how much I love both your channels - they're what got me back into electronics after 15 years a few months ago! Thanks guys.**Edited to add - I've just read about Petr Šmíd (drieg) and the brilliant customer service at Silcon Electronics, which makes things swing even further back in Rigol's direction! Perhaps I'll leave the Agilent until my next scope when I'll know more exactly what I need. Although, Rigol may well be in a position to charge Agilent prices by then!

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 03, 2013, 04:57:36 am
content: Quote from: seb1982 on April 03, 2013, 03:38:47 amIt shouldn't. Don't go by my unit which has non-official firmware in it by accident.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2013, 05:34:43 am
content: Quote from: jpb on April 02, 2013, 05:09:06 pmThat's true. I usually order stuff from abroad, or if I need quality components then I go through Mouser. Usually even with shipping and customs/VAT it ends up cheaper than buying in the UK or inside the EU.QuoteOuch!

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2013, 05:43:07 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on April 03, 2013, 04:57:36 amYou may not be alone. I know someone who bought a DS4000 scope that showed a few bugs, and when he went back to the authorized reseller to replace the scope he found that the second one had the same problems. In the end he got a newer firmware from Rigol which fixed the issue but apparently the whole shipment the reseller had got from Rigol came with the same firmware.The problem is that because there is no firmware history and change logs available on the Rigol website it's difficult to find out if your device is running RTM firmware or a pre-release.Rigol really needs to be more open regarding their firmware and make firmware and changelogs available on their website for download for all their products.

author: funkimunky
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2013, 08:55:21 am
content: If your buying in the UK aspen electronics are good. I bought a gw instek scope from them then found it cheaper in maplin though maplin did not name the manufacturer. I contacted aspen and the refunded me the difference. Very good customer service. I don't work for them I just thought they were good and you speak to a real person.Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk 2

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 03, 2013, 09:40:35 am
content: Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on April 03, 2013, 05:43:07 amI agree, this is a major bugbear. And it's easy to fix. It's not rocket science to have the latest firmware on your website for every product.

author: djsb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2013, 09:44:19 am
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on April 02, 2013, 09:32:54 pmSo I need not have paid the customs duty and shipping charges Via DHL Global forwarding?As I'm not a business I can't claim any of these charges back. I wish they had made this clearer when I bought it. It was very confusing trying to figure out how the customs duty was to be paid.I still got a very good deal even after all the additional costs though.