Non-Chinese Oscilloscopes? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: Rog520
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2015, 10:41:03 pm
content: New member here. Really am enjoying the site, and many thanks to Dave for the informative and entertaining videos!I'm finally jumping into the digital scope foray after decades of using mostly Tek and HP analog scopes (I still have a 2467B). Naturally it looks like most scopes are now being made in China, including the new Tek models. Even Agilent's DSO scopes. Are there any (reasonably priced $1-2k) digital scopes that aren't being made in China? Should I even be concerned? I hear some generally good things about Rigol and Siglent. I'm curious mostly about warranty, tech support, firmware stability, and build quality with the offshore stuff. I do primarily SMPS design so I don't need a Cadillac, but I'd rather not settle for a cheap plastic toy, either. Impressions, suggestions, and advice appreciated!Marc

author: LaurentR
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2015, 10:56:33 pm
content: The Rigol scopes feel absolutely solid and well built. The scope firmware has some minor annoyances and occasional issues, but they have been pretty prompt to fix them. Overall, the Rigol scope UI is quite good and usable.If you look at the threads, you'll find that the biggest complaint with Rigol is that their PC software is generally not very good.On the support side, at least in the US, they are trying hard, but they're not at the level of the big names. They are still swamped and it shows that their engineering is in China, but you can report issues and somebody will respond to you. Response times are widely variable. Hardware issues are also dealt with reasonably well but can take a while.All in all, while the overall quality or the combined hardware, firmware, software and support may not be 100% on par with the big names, it's pretty close and definitely nowhere near crapware levels. And at the low-end (<$1000), the bang-for-buck is just peerless (for scopes at least), definitely in the not-worth-hesitating region. As you go up in price and downtime/support requirements, moving to the big brands starts making sense.In the $1000-2000 range, the Rigol DS2000A series holds its own very well against the competition.

author: ElectroNub
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2015, 11:59:38 pm
content: SignalPath got to tour the Lecroy assembly plant and play with the top of the line model right here in the USA.oops forgot to add link to video.

author: Hydrawerk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2015, 12:09:02 am
content: Quote from: Rog520 on March 06, 2015, 10:41:03 pmKEYSIGHT TECHNOLOGIES DSOX2012A is made in Malaysia, I think.http://www.newark.com/keysight-technologies/dsox2012a/oscilloscope-2-analog-100mhz-1gsps/dp/21T9317And Hameg scopes are made in Czech Republic or Germany in Europe.http://shop.rohde-schwarz.com/us/hamegr-hmo1022.html

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2015, 11:36:41 am
content: Quote from: Rog520 on March 06, 2015, 10:41:03 pmYes, there are, as others said Agilent's DSOX2k Series is made in Malaysia, and R&S' 'Value Line' (Hameg) is made in the EU.QuoteNo, you shouldn't. The place of manufacture is one of the least important criteria, seriously. All that matters is how good an individual manufacturer is, i.e. if there's proper Quality Management in place, how good the design is, the software and so on. Not where it was built. I've seen instances where some item made in China was of far superior quality than a similar item made in Germany or the US. I've seen good and bad things made in Malaysia, or the Czech Republic.China has a (well deserved!) reputation for producing crap but that is primarily because the costs of producing there have been lower than anywhere else (but that's about to change anyways), not because the fact that something is made there automatically makes it inferior. Don't forget that in the 70's Japan was exactly at the same spot (global producer of crap), and now Japanese products are commonly regarded as being of very high quality.QuoteSiglent makes good hardware, especially considering the price point, however they sometimes have quality issues (i.e. corrosion on the SDG5000), and they absolutely suck in terms of software/firmware. They also tend to release products prematurely (i.e. the hardware is ready, the firmware isn't). Latest example is the SDS2000 Series scopes which still suffers from annoying bugs which may or may not be fixed. What's worse is that often new firmware fixes one problem but also introduces one or more new issues.Rigol also produces good hardware, but they also are somewhat better in that they produce better firmware for at least some of their products (i.e. the DS2000 scopes) while completely neglecting others (like the DS4000 and DS6000 scopes, which no-one really buys anyways).Support is a bit hit and miss with both. Siglent at least offers firmware updates as downloads (although without a changelog so it's anyone's guess what has changed) while Rigol wants customers to contact them first which is pretty silly really. Neither of them can really compete with the support offerings of the big brands (Keysight, LeCroy, Tek), though.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2015, 01:37:23 pm
content: QuoteIt never made sense to me that people make their decisions on the country of origin - I wouldn't buy something because it is produced in China (for example), or reject a purchase because it is produced in Greece (for example).

author: Hydrawerk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2015, 02:51:40 pm
content: Do you remember thismade in Germanyoscilloscope?https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/welec-w2000a-another-weird-oscilloscope/

author: Noise Floor
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2015, 02:58:42 pm
content: The iPhone is a great example that the manufacturing country is not a 100% predictor of quality. As was said earlier, it really is a matter of the company behind the product and all the things that go into design, manufacture and support of it.That said, I do believe their are reasons to care about where things are built, but those reasons are largely geo-political behaviors and if you are concerned with "where the money goes", but those conversations are involved.To more directly answer your question: I have a Rigol and Agilent scope on my lab at home. The Rigol is made in China and designed there. The Agilent is made in Malaysia and designed in America. On the latter, Agilent (Keysight) has a single manufacturing facility that most of their stuff comes from to my knowledge. I'm not sure if Rigol has multiple plants of just one. I only mention this because in my manufacturing experience a common plant delivery system tends to provide more consistent quality across the products over time (good or bad depending on the company).

author: Noise Floor
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2015, 03:01:06 pm
content: Quote from: Hydrawerk on March 07, 2015, 02:51:40 pmAre the R&S scopes made in Germany?http://www.rohde-schwarz.com/en/products/test-measurement/oscilloscopes/pg_overview_63663.html

author: JohnnyBerg
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2015, 03:52:40 pm
content: Remember the screen of the Sony Xperia Z?And Sony Customer Service here in the Netherlands? Virtually non existent!

author: Rog520
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2015, 04:36:59 pm
content: I wouldn't reject a unit *just* because it's made in China. Far from it actually -- I'm almost looking for someone to convince me that a Chinese scope would be a good investment, because it would save a lot of money. But since most electronics is now being made there (and since historically a lot of the stuff coming out of there has been crap), I think questions about quality and support, etc., are valid ones. It seems like a scope that's designed/supported in/from the US, yet made in China (as the iPhone example would illustrate), would be superior to one that's entirely Chinese-produced and supported. It sounds like the price difference between a Rigol and and a comparable Tek, for example, is mostly due to the degree of support you'd have available, not necessarily the quality of the hardware...although some of the stuff I've been reading about the newer Teks makes me wonder if I should even consider them!Thanks for the insight, everyone. If any of you have multiple scopes that fit into these differing categories (as I think Noise Floor mentioned having a Rigol and Agilent), I'd be interested in hearing what you think about the differences between them.Marc

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2015, 06:11:18 pm
content: Quote from: Rog520 on March 07, 2015, 04:36:59 pmTek is I think a bad example as they mostly live from their glorious past back in the analog scope days with little innovation in their digital scopes (where LeCroy and Agilent/Keysight are leading the pack). Especially in the entry level segment Rigol simply provides much better bang for the buck than Tek.But yes, support won't be the same with Rigol as it will be with the big brands (Agilent/Keysight, LeCroy, R&S).

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 08, 2015, 02:45:28 am
content: For $1k to $2k you can get a low-end Agilent.For the same money (or less) Rigol will sell you a much higher-end scope - really top quality (just as good as Agilent in my opinion).But Agilent support will be better.Your call.

author: don
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 08, 2015, 05:38:04 am
content: Quote from: Rog520 on March 07, 2015, 04:36:59 pmI was sort of in the same situation. Specifically would a low cost scope work for me. It's clear that the low cost feature rich scopes for hobbiest or anyone on a budget in the <$1k range are dominated by manufacturers such as rigol & siglent. This is because their scopes offer the most features per dollar, albeit perhaps with less refinement and support. Less than $1k? Sure, try a Rigol. You don't even need to compare memory, etc. as they will have more compared to bigger names.Move up to $2k and you have more options. Now you will start comparing feature by feature and still likely find Rigol has more, but the risk is it may not work quite right. For example, I bought/returned a $1k SDS2000 then increased budget to a Rigol DS4000 and returned it as well because it did not do what I was expecting either. Actually I didn't find anything new in the <$2k range from any manufacturer that I could use day to day for 95% of my tasks so I had to increase my budget further . Obviously I'm a small piece of the population and others are perfectly happy with offerings from Rigol / Siglent because they have different feature/usability needs.Move up to the next price group (ie $4k) and now you really need to know exactly what features are most important to you because there are several good scopes. All with different strengths & weakness. You just need to align a scope with your work. At that price I preferred and purchased the tek MDO3024. I knew the MDO3024 was a good fit for me all along, I was just trying to save money and worked my way up as needed.So there is a clear trend. At <$400, it's an easy decision to buy a Rigol DS1054z . At $2k you'll want to expand search to more manufactures and Rigol will not be the clear winner. At $4k and beyond the field is even larger and likely Rigol is a very small player and you need to do more homework. All of the above completely independent of country scope was designed in. Most important is basement scope will be debugging designs in.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 08, 2015, 06:46:23 am
content: Quote from: Rog520 on March 06, 2015, 10:41:03 pmHave a look at the SDS2000 range particularly for the PA option.There are several threads on this Siglent and plenty of reading in detail.Is detailed Power Analysis a requirement to you?

author: G7PSK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 08, 2015, 09:33:12 am
content: Iwatsu scopes, made in Japan.https://www.iti.iwatsu.co.jp/en/products/ss/index.html

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 08, 2015, 10:30:31 am
content: Quote from: wilfred on March 08, 2015, 10:14:37 amThose really crude entry level things from Tek., maybe.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 08, 2015, 10:48:09 am
content: Quote from: G7PSK on March 08, 2015, 09:33:12 amBut not sold outside Japan because LeCroy sells them as WaveJet in the rest of the world.Nice and rock solid scopes, although a bit outdated and with a non-intuitive UI. Unfortunately also very expensive.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 08, 2015, 10:49:52 am
content: Quote from: coppice on March 08, 2015, 10:30:31 amOwon. That's the first thing that comes to my mind when someone says "cheap plastic toy" in connection with oscilloscopes.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 08, 2015, 11:32:44 am
content: QuoteNot really sure why you would look to a scope as an "investment": they are electronics. and worse yet, they are mostly digital electronics today and their prices drop like a rock.If you want a good investment, something else, like a house, or a farm, or gold may be better choices.

author: JohnnyBerg
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 08, 2015, 11:42:45 am
content: Quote from: dannyf on March 08, 2015, 11:32:44 am+1I would expect that the Rigol DZ1054Z would put pressure on prices of new and used scopes. Until now, I do not see that (yet).

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 08, 2015, 01:08:56 pm
content: Quote from: dannyf on March 08, 2015, 11:32:44 amOf course a scope can be an investment, as is any other tool or production equipment that is used in a business to make money.And if investing X amount of dollars increases your profit by more than X then it's usually a pretty good investment.

author: Rog520
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 09, 2015, 05:14:53 am
content: Quote from: wilfred on March 08, 2015, 10:14:37 amSorry, I haven't had the opportunity to go through many of the blog videos yet. I did look at the Agilent MSOX/DSOX 2000/3000/4000 reviews and am impressed! I'll have to look further into those. I went to Rigol's site and don't see a 1054 model. Hmm. I had the opportunity to use an off-brand handheld scope a few years ago, and it was indeed a cheap plastic toy -- something you can't always determine just by looking at a piece of equipment or reading its specs -- which is why I'm curious about others' hands-on experiences.Quote from: dannyf on March 08, 2015, 11:32:44 amConsider it an investment in productivity. Obviously I'm not expecting it to appreciate in value.