cost of some DIY power tools why so expensive - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: jonovid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2016, 02:25:54 pm
content: with DIY power tools, do we all need Inductive charging of lithium-ion batteries and brush-less motors?I still buy power tools with cords. if only to save 80% on the Cost. so maybe i'm a cheapskate.as a hobbyist I do not need professional-grade cordless power tools. made for the outdoors on building sites that still have no on-site AC.also I find a 400W corded power tool will do all the work I need. -howeverthe largest issue with power drills is getting a super low RPM setting. when you need it. as in drilling plastic boxes for electronics kits.and also the quality of the chuck, in not centering the drill bits as needed. but then if the drill bit is less then 2mm .see images of a DIY PS2 memory card socket. maybe the work is just too fiddly for the tools I have.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2016, 02:54:44 pm
content: I really should post a picture of my corded cordless drill. It had a 12V NiCd battery pack, that died, and where repacking was way too expensive, so I simply made an adaption to have a cord out of it and use a 12V SLA battery instead. Works a lot longer than the original battery did, and only a little less portable, just have to take a plastic bag to hold the battery to my belt when using up a ladder if I cannot hold it on the top of the ladder.

author: jonovid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2016, 07:26:32 pm
content: I have seen a big jump in cost of power tools in 2016 , so I posted this.also just trying to find the right drill i needed is not easy. I do not need watchmakers or jewelers tools, but also most DIY power tools are made for woodworking or metal working. not handcrafting plastics .

author: kripton2035
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2016, 07:49:43 pm
content: buy yourself a battery powered dremel, and some accessories you will be able to work on plastics.then when you want more serious work, you will buy another one...I bought power tools 15 years ago, they last a year and a half at most, then the batteries died or were not lasting any long.then 10 years ago I bought a festool cordless power drill, with brushless motor, and NiMh battery (not lithium they did not exist)and you know what, I still use the same tool today, and with the same battery pack !ok I must have paid it some 500€ but I don't regret it, seeing all the dead tools I bought were more €€€ than the festool I still use.

author: slicendice
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2016, 08:00:57 pm
content: lol, I got an used Bosh battery powered drill from a friend. The battery died so I stuck a chord in the battery, removed the cells and connected the modified battery to my portable batterypack (20€). I used this setup to make a 250m fence consisting of about 10000 stainless screws. When done the batterypack was not even close to empty.Edit: the batteries is the expensive part of these tools, not usually the tool itself, unless it has high torque or other special functions.

author: eugenenine
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2016, 08:22:37 pm
content: I bought the old makita 9.6v nicad tools years ago and batteries lasted over 10 years. Being tempted by the newer tools I 'upgraded'. The newer tools are heavier and no more powerful despite being 2 or more times the voltage and the batteries wear out after just a couple years.

author: Kleinstein
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2016, 08:29:29 pm
content: The batteries are rather expensive parts. It is not uncommon to have batteries in the $100 range. So these tools are expensive.Those NiMH batteries were really bad, and the later, higher capacity NiCd ones where also less robust than the old (e.g. 1.3 Ah) ones. The newer Li based Cells seem to be pretty good again, if you do not deep discharge them.Also more special tool, made in smaller quantity are relatively expensive, while other tools made in large quantities are usually surprisingly cheap. For example a router could be about 2-4 times the price of an angle grinder with a similar size motor and an extra gear box. The other strange thing is that impact drill are often lower price than the version without the impact function - though otherwise more or less identical and maybe a 10 mm instead of the 13 mm chuck.Some tools are actually surprisingly cheap and still not always total trash.

author: slicendice
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2016, 08:46:29 pm
content: Agree, the price range is HUGE.Makita is really good, you only need to buy one tool with the battery included (usually 2 + dual charger) and after that you can purchase tools only, without the battery and save a lot of money.Hilti branded tools are really good, cost a lot (I mean very very much) but they pretty much last forever, including batteries. But for a hobbyist there's no point paying that kind of money. These tools are designed to be used 8h+/day and 40h+/week and 260days+ a year.

author: nowlan
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 29, 2016, 01:46:08 am
content: Just get an ozito for $30. Most home drills see less than an hour in their lifetime.The battery packs are really expensive on pro tools. Over $100 typically.https://www.bunnings.com.au/our-range/tools/power-tools/cordless-accessories/batteries-chargersCant help with plastics.

author: sainter
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 29, 2016, 08:55:33 am
content: +1 on makita. Bought a drill with two li-ion batteries (1.5 Ah), for DIY use more then good. Never used one battery faster then the other would charge. Larger batteries (3-5 Ah) can cost more than the bare tool, so cheap out and buy smaller 1.5 Ah batteries (don't buy 1.3 Ah). Further more, when you already have a charger and batteries, you can add on other tools as slicendice notices.Also have makita rotary hammer drill and usb charger. USB charger is very useful to run project from, because the quick charging and extensive capacity of batteries (1.5-5 Ah at 18v).

author: VK5RC
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 29, 2016, 11:38:33 am
content: +1 re Makita , love the 18V LXT LiIon , hate the price, love the convenience, esp a battery powered angle grinder - chews through batteries- leave the abrasive pad on always. The drill lives on the higher level bench with a 3mm metal drill in it.

author: eugenenine
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 29, 2016, 04:32:35 pm
content: Will any of the new batteries last a decade like the old ones though? Thats my issue, I dn't mine investing in a decent system if it will last. The Porter cable ones I have now last 3 years.

author: Assafl
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 29, 2016, 05:03:19 pm
content: I try to segment tools to ones I use semi daily (drill, impact driver, etc) and for those use battery operated (currently Makita after the Dewalt died). And everything else that gets occasional use - like the hammer drill, dremel, Sabre saw, woodworking tools, etc which I use mains powered tools. I had enough finding them with dead rechargeable batteries.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 29, 2016, 05:14:25 pm
content: Not long ago I bought a Makita DHP480 brushless to replace an ancient drill. I haven't used a corded one since - the power, torque and battery life are all incredible. The next model up, the 481 comes with a side handle - without this it would probably break your wrist.If you're working anywhere away from a bench, cords are a PITA and a hazard.You can get some really cheap tools but if you're going to use it a lot it's a false economy.

author: Kleinstein
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 29, 2016, 05:46:15 pm
content: The new LiIon batteries can stand quite a lot of power cycles. But I have some doubt they can last more than 10 years, even if not used that much. Li cells are at least known to show quite some aging even if not used. At least the Li Cells last generally longer than NiMH and the later generation (higher capacity) NiCd cells did.However there is an up side. You can recharge at any state and the high quality chargers are really fast (e.g. 15 minutes for 50% charge - they get slower at the end) . So for private use one will generally not need a second battery pack. Also the capacity even of the small packs often lasts quite long - so the higher capacity batteries with 2 cells in parallel each are mainly needed for high power tools.Todays small 10,8 V -2 Ah packs have about the same energy as the old days rather bulky 14.4 V 1.3 Ah packs.

author: eugenenine
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 29, 2016, 06:00:13 pm
content: Its a cost issue. When I spent $50 for a 9.6v NiCad Makita and it lasted 10 years vs spending $120 for a lithium ion pack pack which lasts three it adds up.

author: eugenenine
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 29, 2016, 06:02:24 pm
content: Quote from: Assafl on December 29, 2016, 05:03:19 pmThats why I like to use all the same brand. I only use the Cordless circular saw occasionally but it takes the same battery as the cordless drill so I know its charged.

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 29, 2016, 06:24:53 pm
content: Observe battery chemistry. NiCad batteries had higher self discharge and could stand being left flat, indefinitely. What I learned to do with them is to put them on charger in advance of when I was going to use them. Then after use, put away. New li ion are much more expensive. Batteries have low self discharge, but they do not survive if left totally flat. They should be charged AFTER you use them. This should be new habit. Good is the battery always stays charged and reay. Also LI ion batteries are expensive and should not be left in 200 degree F car/garage. So if this is MO, don't buy li ion.In many cases, it is worth the cost to buy expensive tools. My li ion Bosch drill is great. I have never run out of charge. Never had to wait for more charge. Never had first hint of trouble. And I lost one of the two batteries it came with within the first year. Don't even miss it. One battery that is always charged is plenty for me. I have converted old drills to diy li ion, for practically free, even. Still have two like that, kicking around. But I spent on a new one because I use it, frequently. And it is worth it for me. Easier to use a properly designed charger than plugging a diy solution or power cable.

author: eugenenine
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 29, 2016, 07:00:17 pm
content: My old Makita 9.6v that I had for over 10 years, my father bought three sears drills over the same time so in the long run he paid more for the cheaper tools because he had to buy replacements more often.I just can't decide if its worth it to switch to lithium ion. I resisted with digicams because everyone who bought a digicam with a lithium ion battery had to buy expensive spares, carry a dedicated charger and replace the camera every few years when the batteries wore out and replacements were more than the cost of a new camera. I make sure to buy ones the take AA's and just bought a new pack of eneloops every decade.Will the form factor of the cordless tool batteries be the same in 10 years though, I'm disappointed with the 18v PC that replaced the Makita so I've been thinking about a replacement.

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 29, 2016, 07:23:45 pm
content: Eventually, everything changes. At any rate, in a pinch you could replace individual 18650 cells, like one might do for an expensive/unavailable laptop battery. Or how many people replaced the NiCd cells in these old drill batteries, for that matter. Li ion 18650 cells are not going anywhere, soon. And they are only going to get better and cheaper. I'm not usually a sucker for name brands, but I think Makita is probably one of the best li ion cordless drills on the market.The main improvements of Li ion, IMO1. Major improvement in battery life/power for weight. I find 3 cell battery to have plenty of power and capacity for a hand drill, compared to much heavier NiCd drill. YMMV.2. It's very convenient to charge the battery AFTER use, and for that battery to remain fully charged next day, next week, next year. Vs NiCd routine of waiting 45 minutes to start using drill and needing two batteries to swap back and forth.Just watch out of ambient temp. Your drill's living conditions might be the limiting factor. If electronics are designed, properly, li ion batteries can last a very long time. Even 20 years. If drill lives in a truck toolbox and works on hot roofs, battery is not going to last.

author: slicendice
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 29, 2016, 07:44:27 pm
content: Quote from: KL27x on December 29, 2016, 06:24:53 pmYou are absolutely correct, same applies to Cellphone batteries. Maintain an average of 80% charge and the batteries live very long. Store them empty and they die or become really bad within 6-12 months. For example my SMG Galaxy Note 3 which I bought at the release date over 3 years ago, still has same battery and it behaves like a brand new one. It's just a matter of how you charge, discharge and overall care taking of the battery cells. :-)

author: sainter
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2016, 06:32:41 am
content: Li-ion is much less forgiving for misuse. But if you can follow the rules discussed above, li-ion will last much longer. The best property of li-ion for me, is better discharge current in working voltage range. Nicd starts to lack current when voltage drops. Never had a torque problem with new li-ion tools, but old 14v Nicd would let me down constantly.Remember, if your not a contract manufacturer, It's better to have two small batteries then one larger one. "Small" would be unfair word for 1.5 Ah li-ion battery, because I constantly use them and never tend to run out of power. 15-30 holes in concrete is not a problem.About corded/cordless argument. The price of both is the same (because it's basically the same tool) when you buy a cordless tool without batteries. So after first larger investment (charger+batteries) every other tool is cordless for free, ant there is no point of buying corded ones.

author: kripton2035
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2016, 08:40:25 am
content: Quote from: sainter on December 30, 2016, 06:32:41 amthe corded tool is always more powerful than the cordless one. often this is not a problem. sometimes it is.

author: slicendice
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2016, 08:45:35 am
content: Quote from: sainter on December 30, 2016, 06:32:41 amYep, same problem here. Li-ion batteries just "die" when they are "empty".QuoteAbsolutely right!QuoteThe Makita philosophy, could not agree more.QuoteThat is total nonsense. Read statistics about Makita power tools, they challenge choorded ones with ease. Hence they switched from corded and battery powered tools to battery powered only. With battery driven powertools today they can rip of your arm with ease if not careful.Edit: just as an example, the Makita DDF458Z has a torque of 91/58Nm. That is a lot of power in a small formfactor.

author: kripton2035
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2016, 09:10:51 am
content: Quote from: slicendice on December 30, 2016, 08:45:35 amI did not say the cordless tools are not powerfull enought, you did not read my text: I said they are LESS powerfull.both tools are able to cut an arm... one will do it faster than the other.but as the cordless today is enought to do most jobs, manufacturers are selling more and more cordless tools versus corded.and also it's a marketing problem: as almost anyone has a corded tool at home, even if they use it not that much,they can be tempted to buy a cordless one, to use it not so much too ! but they won't buy another corded one they already have.

author: sainter
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2016, 09:13:55 am
content: Quote from: kripton2035 on December 30, 2016, 08:40:25 amI would agree on angle grinders, circular saws. But impact drivers, drills, rotary hammer drills, jigsaws have more power then you ever need. LXT motors have so much power, that chewing trough 1m of masonry with 25mm concrete drill is a breeze. Investing in a cordless system will always be a good idea. It's always more convenient not to drag a cord around your bench when your working at home, but possibility to work off grid is very useful.

author: slicendice
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2016, 09:20:30 am
content: The limiting factor in cordless tools is energy efficiency. You could squeeze out as much power out of a cordless tools as a corded one, but you'd lose the portability as the battery would have to be insanely big to have enough juice to keep going for a day with one charge.Edit: This (energy efficiency) is also the reason for cordless tools being more expensive than corded ones (without counting in the battery factor)

author: slicendice
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2016, 09:41:22 am
content: Quote from: sainter on December 30, 2016, 09:13:55 amheheh, having a 5kW, 3-phase powered circular saw in your pocket is not that convenient. That tool is for a very different type of task. Yes sure that one has a lot of power, way more than a small powertool.

author: slicendice
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2016, 09:49:03 am
content: Just to return back to the topic...some powertools are expensive because there is a lot of tech development involved in power efficiency, portability and power. Some tools cost a lot because the the brand is known to be very reliable and the price does not matter if you get a lot of bang for the buck. If a tool lasts essentially forever the price has to go up a lot or the manufacturer would have to declare bankruptcy in no time.

author: sainter
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2016, 09:59:09 am
content: Two same looking tools may have completely different plastic (with fiber reinforcement, temperature resistant and so on), different bearing quality, motor quality and effectiveness. Every additional step to prolong tool's life, adds cost.In today's economy, good brand companies can't compete with china in cheap tool market. So they tend to make better and thus more expensive tools. If you would search amazon for a cordless drill (li-ion), you would find that cheap, non branded sets can be bought as little as 40-60 eur.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2016, 10:42:19 am
content: Quote from: kripton2035 on December 30, 2016, 08:40:25 amThat would only be true if the corded one had something like a 5-speed gearbox, which I've never seen, or is specifically built for low-speed high torque, like a diamond core drill. Mains motors have poor torque at low speeds - a good brushless cordless will piss all over a standard 2-speed corded drill for torque. For high speed low-torque applications like hammer drilling into brick, a corded drill may be better.

author: slicendice
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2016, 10:53:24 am
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on December 30, 2016, 10:42:19 amhahha, so funny, but very true.Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on December 30, 2016, 10:42:19 amYes this is true for stuff where high mass and high impact is required. Some concrete is really tough to get through. A lightweight cordless or corded tool is just not good enough for these kinds of tasks.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2016, 04:52:02 pm
content: Beware of some power tool brands. Makita and Maktec are the same looking tool, made on the same factory and using similar looking parts. Aside from the screws though they are totally different, the one is cheaped out to the max, using inferior parts and things like bushes instead of bearings, smaller batteries with a packing piece and so on. Applies ot the corded and cordless tools, and they also make house branded tools as well, increasing the confusion.However, buying quality tools is a good investment, as they tend to last longer, and power tools with a cord have a big advantage of being able to store for a year, pull out of the box ( with the appropriate corrosion protection on them) and plug in and use, so that is a plus. Cordless has convenience, no power cord to snag, you can use them up a ladder or in a roof, you can drive to the place to use them even if there is no power there and such for convenience. However when that battery goes dead you are stopped till it charges, and there you either do something that does not need power or have an impromptu lunch break.The construction and trade use corded tools for the most part, mainly because I have yet to meed a SDS cordless that will drill a 75mm core through a 150mm masonry wall, or through 330mm of reinforced concrete with a single battery. OK the Bosch is 9kg with the drill bit, but a lot lighter than the older Bosch I used before, which is 25kg excluding anything, and which is quite capable of breaking bones, but it will drill a 110mm hole no problem provided you can hold it the time without you failing.Driving screws into drywall the cordless is no issue, will do them all day, and charge up a bit over lunch for the afternoon, but if you are doing things like hanging lights, running cable or conduit then the corded one will win out.Yes I have both, and they both have a place, but there is nothing to replace a generator and a corded power tool for high power output. I have yet to see a cordless inverter welder, though I love the inverter, as it is so much easier to carry up a ladder over a buzz box.

author: slicendice
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2016, 06:51:58 pm
content: You are talking about work where portability is not a factor any more. Drilling 150mm+ sized holes in walls, that is not a job for cordless power tools at all.Where I live, for that kind of job, we start using devices that weighs 20KG+, requires water cooling for the drill bits, requires the operator to secure the drill to the wall/floor using bolts, whichever direction it's operated in and uses 400V 3-phase power with 16A+ current. Even the power cables to these devices are thicker than the chuck on a power tool.Edit: it's like comparing a toy electric motor to a 5.4L V12 Engine.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2016, 08:31:32 pm
content: No, 75mm diameter, and a 150mm thick masonry wall, or 300mm nominal reinforced concrete. I prefer to rent the drill to do that, as I can get a bloody big one and simply have to take up the torque, and let the drill mass do the work. Took around a half hour per hole, but was fine, though the first rental drill shat itself in short order. Drove back, got another, carried on. Funny thing was the 75mm bit was brand new, never used, been there for years. I could have used a 50mm, but those were not available for some reason. 75mm gave plenty of wriggle room for the 16mm 4 core armoured cable going through though. That size does not make sharp radius bends, unless you want to terminate every bend in a cast steel Pratley box, and those are bloody expensive in that size.

author: ez24
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2016, 08:39:10 pm
content: Quote from: eugenenine on December 28, 2016, 08:22:37 pmA few days ago I unpacked my Makita 9.6 drill and two batteries and the charger. One battery is good and I bought it in 1996 and was boxed up around 2009. Since then I have gone through Dewalt 12v (4 batteries), Rigid 18v (4 batteries) and all batteries died. Now I have Makita 18v lithium and will stay with this.

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2016, 09:56:36 pm
content: ^ I suspect some of these short-lived dying batteries are simply part of a business model. It is not hard to design li ion batteries to last a very long time. Simply by starting with a generous excess of discharge capability* and adhering to low voltage cutout and proper charging parameters, there is not much to go wrong... unless user forgets to charge a flat battery for several weeks. It is quite the engineering, actually, to make the battery die in X years like clockwork.These cheap tools have their place, though. I never worked construction, but an expensive tool growing legs seems like it would ruin your entire day.*to offset the increase in internal resistance that will occur over time.