attenuator to put in front of thermal camera lens for high temprature work? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2020, 09:35:32 am
content: Is it possible to put some kind of optical attenuator infront of a thermal camera to rescale the temperature and then calibrate it to a known process in a useful way?What I wanted to do is use a torch and indicator pencils to try to see when aluminum is preheated enough to start welding, or for metal bending, etc. I know numbers will be baloney but you can look for what you know. I can visually correlate the color those range modes show with the correct temperature doing side by side mode with a indicator pencil (if you don't know, its a special wax-like pencil that melts at the correct temperature, you strike it like a match when you think its good until it melts while sweeping a torch)I want to do this on a seek thermal camera. I expect a finicky solution but is it possible to ballpark this thing with a clip on lens and some kind of stack of attenuator sheets that I can put in front of the camera one by one? I have no problem building a thing in front of it with a 3d printer that I can load up lens elements on the go.. but I am not sure where to start here. I was imagining like a hopper you drop em into while its angled slightly up so they slide into a tube in front of the lens.Could I do something to ZnSe windows with coatings or whatever that are 'dirty' and resistive, then make a few to find the right combo? I thought to make a hopper infront of the camera I can put them into while I find the correct setting. Also, for lower temperatures, you can use a soldering iron to get an idea of whats going on. I thought maybe.. clear coat?https://markal.com/collections/temperature-indicating-sticksThen I can label the attenuators and put the appropriate ones for the process im interested in.Also, is there a danger to looking at a torch from a few feet away with the thermal imager (acetylene). Candles don't seem to do anything bad.It does not need to be super duper, it seems like it should be able to ballpark grease melting at least?Then when you figure it out you can put a disk infront of the camera that rotates into place like a revolver cylinder so the right optics are switched in for the correct temperature range. Also, no thorlabs or other expenisve things.

author: Ultrapurple
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2020, 10:41:29 am
content: Try drilling a range of different size holes in a piece of thin metal and placing them in front of the lens, selecting the size of hole that gives you the best result. You'd be looking at holes starting at about half the diameter of the lens.A hole will act as an attenuator - a sort of external iris - by preventing so much energy reaching the lens. You'll need to put the metal very close to the lens (almost touching) to avoid too much vignetting (dark edges to the image). If the holes are too small you'll end up restricting the field of view; hopefully you'll find a 'sweet spot' that works for you. Ideally the metal would be dark on the lens side and shiny on the other side (to reflect heat better and stop the metal heating up, which would affect the image by resucing the contast, at the very least).Professional cameras with high temperature ranges often have a movable metal leaf with a 'calibrated hole' that goes between the lens and the sensor. It's better to put it in that area but it's not practical with an existing camera.I have a FLIR camera that has a calibrated hole that can be switched in and out as described. If you're interested I can take some photos when I have some spare time.

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2020, 11:45:31 am
content: This thread may be of interesthttps://www.eevblog.com/forum/thermal-imaging/potential-attenuator-lens-for-our-cameras-znse-and-ge-available-tr-23-and-30/I have also experimented with placing a common photographic glass Haze filter in front of a thermal camera as an attenuator and it workedI will look for my posting showing the results of that test and post a link for you.Fraser

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2020, 11:46:43 am
content: Here you gohttps://www.eevblog.com/forum/thermal-imaging/range-extender-for-thermal-cameras-cheap-option-from-fraser/Fraser

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2020, 11:55:04 am
content: I managed to buy an official FLIR temperature range doubler a while ago. It is the FLIR solution to imaging temperatures that would normally exceed the measurement range of the Exx, Bxxx and Txxx series cameras.Normally a very expensive accessory and it permits calibrated measurements to be taken.https://www.eevblog.com/forum/thermal-imaging/flir-2000celcius-temperature-range-doubling-adapter-exx-txxx-t197993t199235/As you will see from the discussion in the thread. Others suggested cheaper alternatives such as an iris or pin hole attenuator.You can buy a nicely made variable IRIS on ebay very cheaply. Look for “microscope Iris” As they are used on the below stage light source.Fraser

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2020, 11:59:50 am
content: Here you go.... adjustable aperture IrisesPick your sizehttps://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Microscope-Condenser-Camera-Adapter-Aperture-Diaphragm-Adjustable-Optics-Iris/254728325878?_trkparms=aid%3D1110006%26algo%3DHOMESPLICE.SIM%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D225076%26meid%3D7acf66ea4e3e450a9a9fafb78886e68a%26pid%3D100005%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D12%26mehot%3Dco%26sd%3D133552146116%26itm%3D254728325878%26pmt%3D1%26noa%3D0%26pg%3D2047675%26algv%3DSimplAMLv5PairwiseWebWithDarwoV3BBEV2b%26brand%3DUnbranded&_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851Fraser

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2020, 12:07:41 pm
content: A search for “Iris Diaphragm” brings up good results. These units come in many sizes to suit your needs. Plenty to select from on eBay.https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1-12mm-Amplifying-Diameter-Metal-Zoom-Optical-Iris-Diaphragm-Aperture-Condenser/323311033123?_trkparms=ispr%3D1&hash=item4b46d6db23:g:dQAAAOSwVvRbKw6c&amdata=enc%3AAQAFAAACcBaobrjLl8XobRIiIML1V4Imu%252Fn%252BzU5L90Z278x5ickk5v8gVt3hEWLVg%252F253w6XCefw04aNvZ2nUyJaMJw56wXpxdADI%252FGZe%252FRmxzlPD0bn7o6QpbqJOgTn292LCvRiIJsl3Otts5%252BU70LbrZidxXJBY1ujaq6B49dzK7nZRGsNnFHPvDw0XV4d668w6ObZigvMpSitCc9xspg41ouYRGRmEIIjKHViexe7BmiiGqeVz37bwpaTr%252BBLY8PnQ6iUP5NH4gAGztBV2pbu3WkPh6xzpYE0c78R4Pn8LzC4cHT8JHZ%252FHufm0kBDm10qvga5lT15DqyBuL13Hbz7d84tEVKwBzcdLy%252BOjURTClO5d0HIhy5dPiigQ%252BqTJ%252BdhU7%252BmPiui%252B8gkNc2GpqvW%252F9wVxblihOmlK4qP3U3yEiOGG3cuAshxkwY8%252BvnsiStgkGaHLwqrvCQDzUu1mz1yeK%252BT0hX%252Fz6bkrTUx3UYhPzY4UWYmTfqTICDNociWHWkkvQYajLVFVzLjxiHi0uvQu5P0Bb7zvA8EDA5AiQTKUtGCtCdCPeFAILmyZ6epqSaxG0K4XC1%252BZun2Q99aGF5xoMhl03Bffnvl72qiFZdWZEG3hsm1Yu7vPM4KkY1V37tUR87rXgYiQu2UZVGRuv1TWRd3Ls%252Fdo5K1eGtq%252Bp2KztPPwJXqCqC2bw310rzvFtRASFkS2vuwZsZKWMFa8HHBDVww5ttUWzQonCfP2nH%252FNVf230HKG5c8rBLze9v%252BqeXpP2UZtJxeE9aP3tcs9Ebp5N9CbM0FxDSeF2%252F9y7jeTxkJzXr5m01BKHgD3cmWawwL990p7w%253D%253D%7Ccksum%3A3233110331232e969809168b48c8b3ef9419ea4e17bc%7Campid%3APL_CLK%7Cclp%3A2334524Fraser

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2020, 01:33:55 pm
content: One other comment regarding the proposed use of the ‘attenuator’....... if working with Aluminium you are imaging a reflective material that often has low emissivity. As such the gas torch flame energy will be reflected towards the thermal camera and the low Emissivity of shiny metal will provide a very low reading of its surface temperature unless the cameras Emissivity setting matches that of the metals surface.Emissivity of Aluminium:Rough : 0.07Anodised : 0.77Polished : approx 0.05This table gives greater detail and includes Emissivity at different temperatures......https://www.omega.co.uk/literature/transactions/volume1/emissivitya.htmlThe poor Emmisivity of shiny Aluminium is a form of measurement ‘attenuation’ in itself.Imagine having your camera configured for a target Emissivity of 1.0 when it is in fact only 0.07 ....... the readings provided will be 0.07 of the actual surface temperature.You do still have the issue of an acetylene torch flame in the field of view though ! I personally would not expose a thermal cameras microbolometer to an acetylene torch flame at close range. Such is asking for trouble and the correct type of thermal camera with a high temperature range attenuator is recommended.Fraser

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2020, 01:48:44 pm
content: An interesting paper...... they used a FLIR T640 on its 1500C range.https://repository.tudelft.nl/islandora/object/uuid:2e14d054-2d10-4096-a73c-ca606c98d493/datastream/OBJ/downloadFraser

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2020, 02:10:41 pm
content: Another interesting paper that used a FLIR A655sc camera that was fitted with what they describe as a “Neutral Density filter”.https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0264127519305167

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2020, 02:33:39 pm
content: Thermal camera Neutral Density Attenuators.......https://www.edmundoptics.co.uk/f/infrared-ir-neutral-density-nd-filters/13765/Not cheap, but the 12.5mm diameter that you could use is not horrifically expensive eitherUsing such a science grade attenuator permits meaningful temperature measurements to be madeFraser

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2020, 03:34:24 pm
content: An added benefit of using a proper germanium attenuator is that it also acts a a splatter guard for the cameras lens. Better to damage a replaceable attenuator than the cameras lens.Fraser

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2020, 03:44:53 pm
content: I just remembered, it is worth knowing a bit about how optical attenuators work as this can be important.There are reflective attenuators that prevent energy passing through their special coatings and substrate. These do not suffer badly from self heating. Then there are absorbing type attenuators that effectively intercept the energy and dissipate it within their structure. These suffer badly from self heating. Forced air cooling is sometimes used to cool such energy absorbing attenuators. Many attenuators are a hybrid with both reflection and absorption properties. The ratio of these properties can effect suitability for a particular task.There is also wavelength filtering that can offer attenuation of areas of the EM spectrum that may overload a thermal sensor or need to be attenuated to reduce dynamic range in a spectrum before it is presented to the sensor.Fraser

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2020, 03:54:22 pm
content: Quote from: Fraser on October 30, 2020, 03:44:53 pmI guess a filter can also be either the reflective or the absorbing type?

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2020, 03:59:44 pm
content: Often a hybrid mixture of the two using special coatingsFraser

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2020, 09:17:09 pm
content: wow thats fastI forgot an iris lowers the amount of light entering a camera, I actually have a big square iris (not optimal) that I can try it with (it moves metal plates around on o-ring friction)I could setup the camera far away on a cable and use digital zoom to protect it from the torch (the seek seems to have this). It will be interesting to see what effect the molten flux has on the emmisivity (fluoride salts). I tried candle wax and it looks like lava. I have a cable so I can orient it properly on a tripod. And yea you would need to move the torch away for a second to let the camera ignore it.Unfortunately the seek thermal pro only has 4 emmisivity settings??, it is not infinitely variable. It does have a difference because I tried lowering the emissivity and a cold matte area (5c) read as bellow freezing.I need to wait for it to warm up next week because something is going to break if I try to setup tripods and lens and stuff in a cold shop, my dexterity and thinking ability becomes weak. If I like what I see with a few of these experiments maybe that germanium lens is worth it, would hate to have the torch pop and fling something at the lens from far away, this could be damage control and soot protection, plus I should probobly make some armor for the iphone display. I think I will make a box out of thin aluminum flashing with some reinforcements and a glass cover to put the phone in.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2020, 03:30:12 am
content: what transmission % do you choose ? I.e. I have 330C maximum. What formula can I use to adjust it to another maximum temperature? Will it just double at 50%?Thinking about the lens rather then the iris, seems easier to use.And I totally forgot about welding glasses (you should use special blue glasses for aluminum, or a modified flip up helmet for sodium flare). So unless I hook this up to a imax projector I don' think it will be too useful because its too easy for the torch to mess up your vision temporarily. I can see migraines even if I got this technology working fine for welding.Still want to do it however.

author: Bill W
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2020, 02:32:42 pm
content: It is not double.Cameras are linear in response to radiant energy, not temperature. The effects of the Planck black body curve in the transmission band need to be used.It is a fairly heavy duty bit of spreadsheet maths but generates a useful table at the end.[not got mine handy at present]Bill

author: ebclr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2020, 03:07:49 pm
content: Will not work it's against physics

author: Max Planck
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2020, 09:11:20 pm
content: Quote from: Fraser on October 30, 2020, 03:44:53 pmThose are precisely interference filters and this is the solution used typically by camera manufacturers.Max

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2020, 10:55:57 pm
content: keep in mind this is for process control not metrology, it does not matter if i am just seeing a signature related to the true temperature instead of the true definition of temperature, its just so I can determine when something is ready to start forcing or laying a bead. As soon as you get into steel or copper its easy to look at it. Thankfully I can do it with the grease pencil and look at the camera to know what to look for in terms of color (it has the colorful gradient displays, I am sure you can pick one of those color schemes and adjust the range so that something vibrant/obvious/definable is seen when the temperature is correct). For instance I noticed looking at a candle flame one of those color schemes makes the hot gasses very easy to see, wheras with others its not really noticeable. It may be the case that the signature will not be accurate with another material for whatever reason, but I know what I am working with to a high degree.However save for wearing some kind of augmented reality glasses under a welding helmet it seems hard to do.It sounds like frazer is confident it would work, but I would appreciate a ballpark estimate of what one of those 50% pass attenuation germanium reflection window would give me. Probably gonna get a window anyway because it looks cool and I want to see what germanium glass looks like in real life. I have a metallic sample and its interesting.Now having it accurate would also be interesting for high temperature chemical processes, but in most cases that uses a kiln. However it might be useful for manual control of induction heating reaction vessels.

author: ebclr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2020, 06:16:07 pm
content: Can you see a sinusoidal 100 Mhz signal with a 1 Mhz scopeThis is why sensors for the low-temperature spectral range will never measure high-temperature reliable who has energy in a totally different range, Therma energy spectral density is a function of the temperature

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2020, 10:07:00 pm
content: Coppercone2,This Patent may be of interest as it details thermal imaging of arc welding with a LWIR camera plus ND filter. Filter detail is also providedThey use different thicknesses of Polystyrene material so this could be an option.https://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/42/2e/e2/cecc1014536e08/US9307156.pdfFraser

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2020, 10:12:52 pm
content: An interesting brochure from Stemmer Imaging.......https://www.stemmer-imaging.com/media/uploads/cameras/avt/87/87762-Allied_Vision_SWIR_and_LWIR_Camera_Brochure.pdfFraser

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2020, 10:27:24 pm
content: As has been stated, a LWIR thermal camera is not ideal for high temperature measurement as can be seen from the standard Black Body Plank curves provided in the Stemmer Imaging brochure. It is possible to image a high temperature target with a LWIR camera but measurement calibration and associated accuracy can become ‘interesting’! You are measuring on the slope of the Plank curve. FLIR provides options for their LWIR cameras to measure up to 2000C.https://www.flir.co.uk/products/t129254_high-temperature-measurement-option/Imaging and measuring can be two very different challenges.Fraser

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2020, 11:38:57 pm
content: so this polystyrene idea lines up with my home made q-dope idea (some guy on youtube has it), it looks like if I buy the right solvent I can make polystyrene sheets and also q-dope. (ethyl acetate and styrofoam make a polystyrene goo that is castable over coils).I was about to ask if there are plastics that work.

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 02, 2020, 03:13:54 pm
content: Look at ABS Styrene modelling sheet. It comes in many thicknesses and is relatively uniform for imaging through it. A 0.5mm sheet plus the addition of some thinner sheets to make up the correct thickness fir the task maybe ? Look for “plasticard”.Cheap and easy to work with. All the best for your experimentationIt is nice to see someone wanting to carry out experiments in thermal imaginghttps://www.newmodellersshop.co.uk/plasticard.htmhttps://www.stationroadbaseboards.co.uk/z_faq-plasticard.htm

author: AkiTaiyo
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 02, 2020, 04:05:05 pm
content: A fine mesh will work well, provided the mesh size is quite small, otherwise you can get some odd moire effects. Nice thing about mesh is that its usually fairly flat across all wavelengths.For calibrating, you can just apply a suitable emissivity adjustment (same can be done for all windows/filters). For example if the mesh/window etc has a 50% opacity, just apply this to the surface emissivity of the taget. Eg, target emissivity of 0.8 with a window of 50%, set emissivity to 0.4.If you can't work out the opacity of your filter, then try to do a calibration at the highest temperature you can get to with your camera, ie read the temperature of a target, place the filter in front, then adjust the emissivity until it reads correctly again.This may not work with all cameras though, depending on how the brightness is calculated. Some cameras use a table (precalculated brightness taking into account all optical/electrical factors in the instrument) which may be limited to the working range of the camera. Other instrument that use a mathematical model may by highly innacurate outside the working range.Depending on how hot you want to measure, you could try calibrating a standard silicon based camera (eg phone camera). You ideally need to lock down as many parameters as possible (aperture, shutter speed, gain, etc) then use a NIR bandpass filter infront of the camera, though you can do it without a filter provided theres no ambient change in the scene. To calibrate it you might need to find a couple of hot sources of known temperatures though. Dynamic range on most 'phone' style cameras though is only 8-bit so you really dont get much dynamic range, especially given the energy from the high temperatures. Some 'machine vision' cameras work at 12 or 14 bit.Another fun thing you can do with an optical camera is use the Bayer filter to provide ratiometric measurements, though for this you need access down to the subpixel level. Once again though, the limited dynamic range is a real problem.

author: Ultrapurple
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 02, 2020, 04:26:34 pm
content: Using the Bayer filter on a visible light camera to provide thermal radiometric values is intriguing - care to say more?(Oh, and I've probably tripped myself up over radiometric vs ratiometric - I know they're different but I can never remember which to use where).

author: AkiTaiyo
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 02, 2020, 04:47:39 pm
content: From my understanding, with ratiometric you use two wavelengths and the difference/ratio between the two brightnesses give you the temperature, free from issues such as emisivity and window transmission and smoke (though non-greyness is a factor instead).

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 02, 2020, 06:06:37 pm
content: Ratiometric thermal measurement is a pretty specialised area of physics and chemistry. I think Common old Radiometric radiance measurement and conversion to temperature Units is more than enough for most of us to cope withFraser

author: Bill W
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 03, 2020, 05:38:38 pm
content: Quote from: Fraser on November 01, 2020, 10:27:24 pmEven so, it is a log scale graph so 800°C is 3x the radiant energy of 500°C.I have some doubts over that graph, 25°C is not half way between 20 and 80 !My relative radiance values, for a whole camera system, come out as:°C 'R'0 1625 2460 40100 65200 158400 479600 977800 16551000 2514Pixel response (voltage) is linear in 'R' value, but you need to base it to the flag radiance (say 25°C) as a false zero.So a 60°C object is (40-24) = 16 and a 100°C object is (65-24) = 41 and a 1000°C is (2514-24) = 2490.As such you can see that to put 1000°C into the normal range of a basic camera at 100°C you need to reduce energy to less than 1% (16/2490) if you cannot otherwise alter the camera settings.The accuracy problem that Fraser notes is in accounting for the other 99%, making assumptions as to the radiance of that is the main problem.