Counterfeit Culture - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Carrington
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2013, 06:01:35 pm
content: Everything has a limit, but:- Fake drugs.- Counterfeit aircraft parts.- Even electronics, for defense.https://www.facebook.com/CounterfeitCulturehttp://www.cbc.ca/player/Shows/ID/2324420977/

author: Kjetil
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2013, 07:01:27 pm
content: That's not really anything new, if it can be faked for a profit it will be faked. So the next time you're out flying look for "Genuine Beoing components"

author: Stonent
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2013, 07:17:32 pm
content: It gets dangerous when you get into things like heavy duty vehicles, big tractors and yes planes. Think of a real part like a component with a data sheet. Let's say you have an actuator rod for a brake system on a plane and maybe the valve takes about 500lbs of force to open and close. And let's say that part is made of forged stainless steel. Now someone sees this part is $2000 but find a parts importer has a matching part number but just called "actuator rod" and doesn't reference planes or anything but it is $200 and you buy it. Maybe that part is cast instead of forged and it works a few times and then snaps. Bad things will happen.

author: echen1024
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2013, 08:42:19 pm
content: Of course counterfeits are dangerous. You bought a new 747, and you need to fix the engines. You could use a genuine turbine blade, but that costs $800. I could spend $400 and buy a counterfeit blade, but it snaps off and it gets sucked in and the plane blows up. That is a situation where counterfeits are unacceptable. But tell me. Is a fake apple charger cable really that dangerous?

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2013, 08:52:17 pm
content: Quote from: echen1024 on December 30, 2013, 08:42:19 pmOnly if you live in a combustible house.Now.... who would dothat??

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2013, 08:54:45 pm
content: Quote from: c4757p on December 30, 2013, 08:52:17 pmPeople who haven't heard of bricks.

author: Mr Smiley
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2013, 09:21:11 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on December 30, 2013, 08:54:45 pmMonkeh, how could you be so cruelI know the answer to that oneSo I'm going to be politically correct and bite my tongue

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2013, 10:29:06 pm
content: As said so eloquently by a Korean engineer in one of the so regular LA fires " I thought everybody know wood burns" when asked by the anchor why his house was built out of adobe ( for those not in the USA this means fired bricks or block and cement to hold it together) unlike all the others in the area, where all that was left were chimney stacks.But then again, having been involved in a few house fires even brick dwellings burn, from all the combustibles inside, like curtains, flooring, furniture, paint, appliances, clothes, beds and the rest.

author: lemmegraphdat
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2013, 10:45:25 pm
content: Maybe if a few more brains saw the light of day...

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2013, 10:58:53 pm
content: Start with not building houses near or in forests that have a history of burning. A brick or wooden house makes not much difference, almost all the houses in our country are of brick and they also burn.But then in the US some of the most populated area's are on notorious earthquake sites, once every x00 years this goes wrong, when will be the next time?And a lot of cities are build were tornadoes are common.Why not build underground

author: Stonent
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2013, 11:08:30 pm
content: Quote from: Kjelt on December 30, 2013, 10:58:53 pmThe middle part of the US from South to North, is just naturally prone to tornadoes. Warm wet air comes up from the Gulf of Mexico, cold dry air comes down from Canada and when they mix under the right circumstances, tornadoes can happen.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2013, 11:20:48 pm
content: Quote from: Stonent on December 30, 2013, 11:08:30 pmWere there ancient tribes living there prior to the colonization?

author: Carrington
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2013, 11:27:58 pm
content: Quote from: Kjetil on December 30, 2013, 07:01:27 pmYes, I know, nothing new.It's a shame.

author: Carrington
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2013, 11:29:57 pm
content: Quote from: lemmegraphdat on December 30, 2013, 10:45:25 pmHopefully!

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2013, 11:38:20 pm
content: http://gao.gov/assets/590/588736.pdf

author: Stonent
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2013, 11:43:51 pm
content: Quote from: Kjelt on December 30, 2013, 11:20:48 pmYeah, it was probably just one of those things they had gotten used to. Usually preceded by storms, and higher wind speeds, they may already have been taking cover at the time.

author: sacherjj
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2013, 11:44:27 pm
content: I had a couple experiences on my trip to China a couple weeks ago that were interesting. First was talking with a LCD producer and they were talking about patent issues with a backlight. We are actually purchasing LEDs from the people who own the patents, so it wasn't an issue. The idea is that, we were to be manufacturing a product to stay in China, it would be OK to use the exact copies of a given high brightness LED from a third party.We then went shopping and saw some great copies of products. The Swiss Gear backpack would have fooled me, if I hadn't used one for years and noticed the plastic differences.My favorite was a label on a scarf. Line one: "Authentic Silk" Line two: "like feeling".I purchased a perfectly serviceable pair of Samsnug headphones (yes, Samsnug not Samsung). I had the authentic version of the Samsungs to compare. The only difference I could see is the color of the speaker. I would bet the same molds were used for the plastic parts.And for those wondering what the harm is in the cheap Apple charger, you have obviously not seen one with a USB ground connection that is accidentally soldered to 120V live wire.It was tough to look at all the electronics components at seriously reduced prices and not think "bargain!" Without the ability to check for fraud, I couldn't get much. It was interesting playing with the iPad mini clone that had the quality of cheap Chinese Android tablets, but ran iOS. Well, slightly hacked iOS.

author: echen1024
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2013, 12:31:51 am
content: I am Chinese, and have bad experiences buying from China. Our society is focused on keeping the most money possible for us. I purchased upwards of 1000 resistors from a supplier who assured me that they were "high-quality" and "guaranteed Panasonic." The price was about 1/2 of what Digi-Key was charging, and I thought well, they must have been overstock from a nearby manufacturer,. He even handed me the box and let me take one out and test it on a multimeter I found on the bottom level of ZhongGuanCun. I load tested it to failure, and it failed at the 1/4w mark, which was according to spec. I purchased my bug box of 1k, and imagine the horror on my face when I returned home, and found that only the top 50 resistors were what he said they were (they were in Panasonic packaging, and I asked Panasonic to search up the batch number). The dirty bastard put god knows how many year old piece of shit 20% 1/8w shit on the bottom. They looked like they had been pulled out of the arse end of a cat. The fucking worthless tight ass. Lesson learned. Just go buy the authentic components from a reputable source. I went back the next year, and hey, he was still in business. I then proceeded to yell at him, and I had to listen to him bullshit on and on about how I was a dishonest foreigner.

author: Carrington
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2013, 01:21:53 am
content: Quote from: echen1024 on December 31, 2013, 12:31:51 amNo matter the nationality or race, is the human condition.

author: Mr Smiley
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2013, 01:26:32 am
content: Even big reputable companies get caught out and unknowingly sell fakes.A lot of cheep components come off the same production line as the expensive parts, so are the same quality; at the end of the main run. Or are produced without the knowledge of the original purchasers.There are times when it is cheaper for the manufacturer to keep the machines running after the clients products have finished.So the same named expensive and un-named cheap product could be exactly the same not only in materials but also in specs

author: sacherjj
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2013, 01:58:55 am
content: Quote from: Mr Smiley on December 31, 2013, 01:26:32 amThat is true. The trick is figuring out which. Had a friend that worked at Reynolds. He watched them load rolls of Reynolds Wrap, then from the same source roll on the store brands.

author: Stonent
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2013, 02:48:42 am
content: I bought a 64GB MicroSD card from AliExpress for about $15. The pictures showed Samsung on it and when I got it, it said Samsung, but the real 64GB cards had a white logo and this one had a blue one. It also flaked off when rubbing.I ran it through a SD card diagnostics program and it said the card was good but the serial number and manufacturer were both zeros.I did a complaint on AliExpress and said basically I would have still bought the generic SD card at this price but the fact that I was deceived with a major manufacturer logo was wrong and asked for a 50% refund and the seller agreed.

author: Bored@Work
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2013, 09:20:03 am
content: Quote from: Mr Smiley on December 31, 2013, 01:26:32 amLikely not. You send the quality inspectors home to have less witnesses and to not have them sort out marginal components, which would reduce your yield. Or you pay them a bit extra. Or just give them new quality criteria. And you'd probably feed the raw materials in that you had sitting there in stock for ages, because they were not up to spec or contain downright illegal hazardous material. And you skip on process recalibration. If you do fakes all you care about is that the result looks like the real stuff. If you do generic store brands you just care that they meet the minimum standards.I once visited a laundry detergent production facility. They produced their brand detergents and the no-names on the same production line. When it was time to produce some of their brands they cleaned machines and pipes from the previous stuff and recalibrate some machines to close specs. When they were doing their no-name stuff they didn't care cleaning and didn't do any precise recalibration. They just loaded the cheap indigences, flipped a few switches to roughly get the mixture right and off they went.

author: G7PSK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2013, 10:40:12 am
content: It's China that gets all the stick now for fake products but at one time just about every country in the world has made fake's or copies of products. As soon as some one invented something there was some one else who copied it, goes right back to the stone age.

author: dexters_lab
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 31, 2013, 11:33:33 am
content: search youtube for 'bbc fake britian', some of their features are sensationalised for the tv but it certainly points out that it affects everything

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2013, 01:04:20 pm
content: Quote from: sacherjj on December 30, 2013, 11:44:27 pmMore like Android skinned to look like iOS, because that's easier. I have aGoophone i5which is like that. It's most likely they're just reusing case rejects that came off the Apple lines (mine came with a few small scratches) and putting generic Android handset internals in them.Mission-critical things like military/aerospace parts I definitely can see the importance of not buying fakes, but a lot of other things (like clothes, shoes, bags, etc.) aren't that critical. Chinese attitude towards IP is quite different from western: they believe less in paying for or ownership of ideas, but more in services, materials, and products. Look up "shanzhai" and read more about this "other world" - I think it's very interesting.

author: VK3DRB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 01, 2014, 12:29:02 am
content: Quote from: Carrington on December 30, 2013, 06:01:35 pmA couple of years ago I was asked to check out a problem on a machine where a TO-220 power transistor had been replaced several times in a circuit. The new ones failed fairly quickly and the assumption was that something else in the circuit was blowing the transistors. I discovered the transistor was a fake that came out of communist China. What some criminals had done was laser etched out the a rectangular region, obliterating the original markings and then etching in the fake part number and a fake vendor logo. The component was traced back to the black market. I replaced the transistor with one of a similar ratings and the problem was cured.Another example was I bought a reel of blue LEDs about 5 years ago. They had the same long part number as a genuine LED I ordered, but I noticed one extra character thrown in in the part number. I contacted the manufacturer and were told they are likely to be fakes from the People's Republic of China. They were somewhat duller than the genuine LEDs at specified currents, and were slightly off colour too.It does worry me about how many fake components end up in medical equipment, aeroplanes and motor cars.

author: SArepairman
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 01, 2014, 12:40:38 am
content: you can't blame a country destroyed by communist ideology for decades to lack ethics.its easy to get angry at the culture but if you read about Chinese modern history (communism, war, famines, great leap forward, etc) then you can much more easily see how the current mentality developed.. china has a very tragic history really.I have not verified this, but I bet its pretty accurate:how can ethics and professionalism develop in such strife ? its like being surprised that the ghetto is the ghetto.many of those people probably grew up feeling little other then fear & resentmenti can see why, but don't ask me how to fix it, the world is a fucking meat grinder eh

author: lemmegraphdat
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 01, 2014, 01:02:03 am
content: Quote from: SArepairman on January 01, 2014, 12:40:38 amImmorality caused the Soviet Union to eventually collapse. It happens to individuals also.

author: SArepairman
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 01, 2014, 01:09:58 am
content: Quote from: lemmegraphdat on January 01, 2014, 01:02:03 amyea but even so, after 20 years, Russia does not really have a stellar reputation does it?and you can also keep in mind that the greatest internal stifles in Russia happened at least 20 years+ prior to the Chinese problems. Comparing Russia to China you can probably say that despite suffering similar hard ships Russia calmed down significantly after the death of Stalin, and even so, the greatest internal strife occurred mostly during and prior to world war two (purges, famines, etc), so 1940's. China still had this type of bull shit going on until the 70's...

author: Hydrawerk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 01, 2014, 01:17:28 am
content: In CCCP they produced a crap oscilloscope H313. I have it, but it is buried deep in my cupboard. It has always had problems with synchronisation... This video wasnotmade by me, but the scope works exactly bad as mine.H313??

author: SArepairman
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 01, 2014, 01:18:15 am
content: the design was rushed so the designers family can be released from detention

author: Vgkid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 01, 2014, 01:51:39 am
content: I see that the scope uses those horrible ganged push button switches. I hate those switches with a passion.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 01, 2014, 10:50:52 am
content: Quote from: Bored@Work on December 31, 2013, 09:20:03 am+1 A Brands do quality checking all the time, statistical accurate sampling over the entire population and if a batch fails the batch gets scrapped. And there is where it often goes wrong, in China these batches are marked for scrap but between the factory and scrappingplace they often dissapear to re-surface months later. Still not within spec, sometimes handresoldered to work and reworked so the product unique barcodes match products that are legitimate. Even the official distributor of this A brand can not tell the difference anymore. Even went so far to delete the firmware of all scrapped products (at extra cost), made no difference, firmware can be ripped anyway. Pretty tough to prevent this, only good solution is to scrap it in the same factory beyond repair (if there is such a thing in China).

author: G7PSK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 01, 2014, 11:02:55 am
content: Not all fakes come out of China. I had a cheap electric razor that would no longer charge so took it apart, the outside proudly stated made in PRC and had one of those gold so called quality stickers, but inside it said made in India on all the main components.

author: echen1024
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 01, 2014, 06:05:36 pm
content: Quote from: G7PSK on January 01, 2014, 11:02:55 amThe Chinese people, however, have gotten better at counterfeits. I have purchased indian AC adapters, and 1 had hot and ground soldered together, and the other had hot and neutral together.

author: Kjetil
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 01, 2014, 06:14:08 pm
content: In one way you have to admire some of these folks, they are really good at making something work (at least for a short while) in the cheapest possible way.

author: johnwa
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 02, 2014, 02:29:49 am
content: Quote from: Hydrawerk on January 01, 2014, 01:17:28 am<offtopic>It looks like quite a cute little scope, actually! Reminds me a bit of this one I picked up at a radio swap meet a while ago. It is <vaguely_ontopic> made in China </vaguely_ontopic>, early seventies I would guess, all "hollow state", and good to about 2MHz.Construction is a bit rough, though it still works fine! I wonder if it is an original design, or they copied something?</offtopic>

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 02, 2014, 11:28:24 am
content: Colleague of mine says that the chinese do not have a verb for copy or copying and that imitating something someone else has made is considered to be a high honourAny native chinese or chinese expert that can confirm this or bust this myth?

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 02, 2014, 12:28:13 pm
content: Quote from: Hydrawerk on January 01, 2014, 01:17:28 amA lot of the early model BWD CROs in Oz develop the same problem.They have a voltage divider hanging off one side of the vertical deflection circuit,which consists of a 200k resistor & another much smaller value,so that a 'sniff" of the vertical signal is taken off to the triggering circuit.Over time,the 200k goes high resistance,& the "sniff " drops in level,such that the instrument can no longer trigger.I have one of these old 'scopes in the shed,but I am too lazy to fix it--it's a nightmare to work on.The old Russki might have a similar circuit.

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 02, 2014, 12:59:17 pm
content: Quote from: Kjelt on January 01, 2014, 10:50:52 amI see that as a sort of weird recycling culture, and I think that as much as it vexes the original company, it makes more sense environmentally to repair and reuse as much as you can instead of throwing it to landfill or expending the resources to breaking things down to raw materials.And you're right that "beyond repair" in China seems to not really exist.

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 02, 2014, 01:32:00 pm
content: Quote from: Kjelt on January 02, 2014, 11:28:24 amI can confirm the latter. The Chinese are used to that kind of thinking and it's hard for them to understand our copyrighted world. It's a culture clash.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 02, 2014, 01:45:30 pm
content: Just reading that WalMart China is recalling donkey meat it sold, as it may contain fox..........

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 02, 2014, 02:06:01 pm
content: Quote from: SeanB on January 02, 2014, 01:45:30 pmNormally I would have been shocked were it not that in our EU country a large meatsupplier was caught last year selling large quantities of cowmeat which contained horse

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 02, 2014, 02:37:57 pm
content: Or that a few meat retailers here were caught out selling meat not marked as to content. Most worrying for a large portion was chicken that contained traces of beef, beef that contained traces of pork and game meat that was not the labelled animal. One nice thing is that goat still smells like goat. You smell Goat City ( real place) from a long way away.

author: Carrington
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 02, 2014, 05:17:58 pm
content: Quote from: G7PSK on January 01, 2014, 11:02:55 amVery true.Portugal (for example), is famous for counterfeit clothing (at large-scale and first brand).

author: BBQ
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 02, 2014, 05:48:50 pm
content: Quote from: SeanB on January 02, 2014, 02:37:57 pmAh, that reminds me of the gigantic horse meat scandal that was over whole Europe.And another one here in Sweden, sow fillet dyed red and sold as fillet of beef, i wonder how it tasted rare.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 02, 2014, 06:04:39 pm
content: Quote from: BBQ on January 02, 2014, 05:48:50 pmDoes anyone read a thread before hitting reply? My eyes hurt from all the rolling.

author: peter.mitchell
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 02, 2014, 08:48:19 pm
content: Quote from: SeanB on January 02, 2014, 02:37:57 pmNot wrong; I love goat, and i generally always cook it outside in the same camp oven, because damn it stinks, and makes the cooking utensils stink, but tastes beauuuuutiful.On the topic of counterfeit products, occasionally, you get a bonus, where you get a better part than the original. About 2 weeks ago, I ordered some no-name zigbee modules from china and ended up getting a few ATZB-A24-UFL instead

author: echen1024
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 02, 2014, 09:01:43 pm
content: Quote from: Kjelt on January 02, 2014, 11:28:24 amWe have many words for imitation, or copy. Imitating something, lets just say the Chinese aren't the best. it is reported that in the 70s, we tried to imitate the Boeing 707. Chinese engineers took apart a 707, and built a replica. Afterwards, neither would fly.

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 02, 2014, 09:31:09 pm
content: Quote from: echen1024 on January 02, 2014, 09:01:43 pmDo they have a negative connotation though (shame, unethical, ...)? Or are they about as benign as a word such as "pencil"?I'd really like to understand this if you can help.Quote from: echen1024 on January 02, 2014, 09:01:43 pmEven if true, they've come a long way since then. Lots of trial and error combined with Western know-how being imported (universities, interning in companies in the West, or even Westerners that have gone there to train). Explains why they've gotten a lot better at producing fakes/counterfeits IMHO.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 02, 2014, 09:50:08 pm
content: Quote from: echen1024 on January 02, 2014, 09:01:43 pmyet.... the japanese were also very big copiers in the 1920's..1960's look where they are now

author: echen1024
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 02, 2014, 09:55:24 pm
content: Quote from: nanofrog on January 02, 2014, 09:31:09 pmA lot have negative connotations. They are supposedly benign words, like Zao Zia, which is literally "Make fake," however, it refers to fake goods or electronics in a negative way. Likewise, Dao Ban means illicit, but it is the term applied to all things that were made through circumventing copyright laws or license codes. Just like how when I talk to my EE friends in CHina, they refer to my Rigol licenses as Dao Ban.

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 02, 2014, 10:02:28 pm
content: Quote from: echen1024 on January 02, 2014, 09:01:43 pmSlightly OT..... but people, this often-heard myth "$X do not have a word for $Y" is 99.99999% of the time completely false. Language has existed for many thousands of years; we have invented a word for everything worth saying, many times over. Sometimes it's actually a phrase rather than a single word, but the distinction is blurred in many languages anyway. (ParticularlyChinese.)How many words do the Inuit have for snow, again?

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 02, 2014, 10:23:47 pm
content: Quote from: echen1024 on January 02, 2014, 09:55:24 pmOK, so it doesn't seem that different than in the West then (seen as dishonest, unethical, ....). Easy enough. I think, so please bear with me.I would assume then, it's a combination of economics (greed) as the motivating factor to go ahead and do such things, despite it being culturally disapproved of. Or is this not the case?Assuming I'm on the right path to understand at least some of the details, I'm still wondering why doesn't anyone say, let alone do anything to change the pattern. Does the cultural aspect of being polite, whether they're employed at such a facility (economic due to job loss) or not is so strong that people keep their mouths shut even if they have no interest whatsoever in such a company?

author: smashedProton
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 02, 2014, 10:32:50 pm
content: Quote from: echen1024 on December 30, 2013, 08:42:19 pmAdd two zeroes to those figures and they may be realistic

author: smashedProton
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 02, 2014, 10:35:44 pm
content: Quote from: Stonent on December 31, 2013, 02:48:42 amYou go through that much effort for a 15 dollar purchase?

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 02, 2014, 10:54:21 pm
content: Quote from: smashedProton on January 02, 2014, 10:35:44 pmI try to negotiate (partial) refund or replacement any time I don't get precisely what was advertised. I don't care if it was $2, I worked for that $2.

author: echen1024
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 02, 2014, 11:07:17 pm
content: Quote from: smashedProton on January 02, 2014, 10:32:50 pmProbably. I wasn't thinking.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 02, 2014, 11:11:52 pm
content: Try another 2 zeros for some parts.

author: echen1024
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 02, 2014, 11:20:07 pm
content: Quote from: nanofrog on January 02, 2014, 10:23:47 pmIn China, if you have an opportunity to make or save a quick buck, you take it. Another reason is money, or the lack thereof. The salaries for technical workers is still quite low. The salary for a software engineer is around USD 30,000. And that is at a high paying company like Baidu. People making 30k a year will not go spend several hundreds or thousands of dollars on something like Altium ($7245) or Visual Studio ultimate ($4,200) whether for company use or for personal hobby. The most important reason is the culture. Even in high earning families, for example, my aunts. My aunt runs her own distribution company for supermarkets, and her husband is in a high level management position at a large Chinese shipping company. They probably have over $2 million USD/year in earnings, yet when asked to pay $120 for a copy of Windows, they decide to go for the illicit copy for $5. The only reason illicit software has proliferated in china is the fact that there is no one to control them. And when the people are presented with the option to save several hundred or thousand dollars, they will take it. No one is yelling for change. The people selling bootlegged programs make money, and people to poor to otherwise afford Windows or Office can get the programs that they need, and the rich can enjoy themselves at the same time. Here in the US, if there was illicit software for 1% of the price of an official copy at Fry's, hey, I would buy the bootlegged version. Same goes in China, just that there is no one to clamp down. Which explains my copy of Altium...edit: I remember my aunt complaining to me that there was this one supermarket that used the timestamp of when an order was placed, and created a MD5 hash of that number as the order number. Her company would always process the order at the time they received it and was cleared, which was always a few seconds off, so therefore, they would create an order number, and deliver the goods to the next day. Afterwards, at the end of the month, when they billed them for the orders, they would claim the order numbers did not match, and therefore refuse to pay. In the end, they would offer a "courtesy gesture" by paying 50%. It went on, however, this was one of Beijing's largest supermarket chains, and they were afraid to sour the relationship. Finally, I investigated a bit for her, and told her what was going on. As you can expect, the CEO was directly confronted.Wow that was a long post. Some of you guys might want to kill me by now.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 03, 2014, 12:05:27 am
content: Quote from: echen1024 on January 02, 2014, 11:20:07 pmNot saying you're wrong, but I don't follow this. The customer kept saying 'no-order number of that here' and then your aunt just shrugging her shoulders and saying 'OK, no problem'? If that worked then I could do that with every order I put in, just claim that their order number was different to mine and then make one up.

author: echen1024
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2014, 01:24:01 am
content: Quote from: Lurch on January 03, 2014, 12:05:27 amNo, the authorities were called, however, nothing happened, yet they were unwilling to kill off the deal since just a few stores were doing this, and to kill the deal meant millions a year lost.

author: Shock
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2014, 07:19:44 am
content: It was at that point a signed receipt of shipped goods revolutionized China.

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2014, 08:11:38 am
content: Quote from: echen1024 on January 02, 2014, 11:20:07 pmAlso keep in mind that USD 30k plenty to live comfortably there, since everything else is so cheap...

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2014, 11:47:38 am
content: Quote from: echen1024 on January 02, 2014, 11:20:07 pmI heard that in Shanghai due to the high cost of living the salaries are already pretty close to the european salaries which would be around double that amount.I hope they keep rising, that would be a good development for software engineers in the US and Europe

author: echen1024
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2014, 04:12:21 pm
content: Want to live in a big city? Cheap? Bullshit. Average house prices in Beijing average $2/3000/sqm and will climb up to $7-9k in the nicer regions(school, proximity to center, etc..)

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2014, 04:47:36 pm
content: Quote from: AcHmed99 on January 03, 2014, 02:19:17 pmIndia the salaries are already on that level for the good engineers. And as any western company will probably have experience with, there are issues with outsourcing coding to india

author: echen1024
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2014, 05:05:23 pm
content: Quote from: Kjelt on January 03, 2014, 04:47:36 pmYes. Nothing ever gets done. At Halliburton, the deadlines for the India are 2 months earlier than the deadlines in America for the same project.

author: iceisfun
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2014, 08:26:44 pm
content: The worst... MTG cardsThere are some damn good ones out there too

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 04, 2014, 01:13:40 am
content: Quote from: Kjelt on January 02, 2014, 09:50:08 pm"Copying" in itself isn't a bad thing,very few designs are truly innovative.For example,in analog TVs,the horizontal output circuit is basically the same over multiple manufacturers .It is good practice to imitate the construction & design standards of industry leaders.If you are making Test Instruments,see how Tektronix,Fluke,or Agilent does things.They don't do it for fun,so it will help you make a better product.Counterfeit is something else,again.

author: station240
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 04, 2014, 03:58:22 am
content: Quote from: Mr Smiley on December 31, 2013, 01:26:32 amhttps://www.sparkfun.com/news/395Quote

author: Stonent
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 04, 2014, 04:56:09 am
content: Quote from: echen1024 on January 03, 2014, 05:05:23 pmThe way I see it done frequently is things like programming go to India because they can easily get a lot of people right out of school to do the work cheaply. Sometimes they use the PRC, but I think India has a higher percentage of people fluent in English. I don't see much going to Hong Kong despite the high percentage of English fluency, probably because the cost of living is higher than India. (just a guess)

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 04, 2014, 12:37:05 pm
content: Quote from: vk6zgo on January 04, 2014, 01:13:40 amWell what if an A brand company invests millions of dollars in just getting the pcb layout right, for instance the RF spectrum analyzer stuff Dave showed a while back. Takes a lot of trial and error to get such a state of the art pcb correct. Can´t protect the layout with patents.So another company buys one of their products and copies the entire pcb design and then sells those equipment for a fifth of the price of the A brand because they do not have to spent so much money inventing it they don´t have to earn back that money. The A brand can not earn back their investment and after a few generations quits that business in total so no more research. If that is going to be reality there will be no more new and innovative productsThe problem is that a lot of copying of parts of the design and designs by themselves can be very disruptive for innovation and investments. The end user will not see that because he enjoys his `cheap` equipment that performs almost the same as the very expensive one. But it hurts innovative companies and their employees.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 05, 2014, 04:59:16 am
content: Brand A's design is probably the application of basic design principles devised by company "X" thirty years before.Particularly,with RF circuitry,you can make a perfect copy & still not achieve the same results,whereas the original designer knows the limitations & tradeoffs involved.There is always the temptation to say " I don't think they need that much shielding.",or " It's a lot cheaper to make that track curve as a right angle".I have fairly recently experienced this in a UHF Transmitter design,where the test board circuit from a manufacturer's app note was copied without knowing why things were done.In an RF Amplifier circuit,two of these layouts which were driven in parallel,were placed nice & close to each other on the same PCB,reducing the cooling of the LDMOS devices.They were fed through a hybrid,& the output combined in the same way.It was "much cheaper" to use marginal inbalance load resistors at the output,so they did.Even so,all might have been well,if both amplifiers on the board were tuned for the same frequency range,but no!They copied the chip capacitor values exactly,& positioned them identically,so with normal variations in the LDMOS characteristics,the response curves were sufficiently different to create enough imbalance to cook the unbalance loads.On top of this,none of the amplifiers were optimised for the frequency we were using---more inefficiency,more loss,more heat!-----But they were perfect copies!I won't say where they came from,but I bet you can guess!