What essential test gear should you expect if you're employed in electronics? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: peteb2
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2018, 10:05:35 pm
content: I am asking whether you as an employee tech/engineer who repairs, maintains, develops a design or modifications for a piece of equipment or system that is in all cases used solely within your employer's business, what sort of test gear do you expect to be provided to do your job?I don't want to ruffle things too much (someone from my work will no doubt read this) but i'd love to hear of others' situation when it comes to being able to do your job you're employed for and what kind of investments/planning on the employers part ensures you have good reliable up to date test gear. This is high cost test equipment that is the kind outside the pocket of most individuals in an employed role situation .My experience i have seen in the last twenty years (i have worked this long for one employer) virtually zero new test gear bought. The only operating 'scope is a very battered analog Tek 2465. The old very early with floppy drive Agilent finally died and the reason i'm posting here... I put 1000s of hours on it and had excellent results. Now it simply seems i can only hope that the next dead piece of gear (example) SMPS that appears at my bench is so burned out it can't be fixed....Obviously i am talking about what is effectively high cost test equipment that is outside the sort of thing an individual would buy on a salary.It's because of my own skill and experience in being able to substitute something to give me an idea of what a piece of equipment's performance is within usable spec or not. I've been 'byoding' my own gear as in my SDRplay so i can do a testing process on RF equipment to a go no-go level. Obviously without desperately needed proper Spec-an or Network Analyzer i can't optimize anything.Much of the gear i maintain produces an HD-SDI video signal so i rely on an out dated monitor unit from Leader (LV5330).... and its internal programs but i can't do any raw real tests/mod projects easily as i can at home in my LAB because there just simply is no fundamental test unit like a good MSO 'scope...It's not that my call for expenditure has been gone unnoticed, it's that the situation results in my department needs being passed over always... i don't know. I'm now in a somewhat desperate place really because there are so many things i need to do but simply can't. I'd love to know if any of you have had this kind of thing experience-wise. When you've put forward a case as an input for a (example) a new Keysight, Tek, R&S etc to be able to do 'x-project' and the thing actually arrives a few weeks later! What kinds of process might i use so that someone understands the somewhat stifling situation...

author: Harb
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2018, 10:18:29 pm
content: As both an employer and an employee, I can say that its more about what you need rather than what you want.Obviously you know your job and do it well with the older gear......it sounds like only equipment failure will result in upgrades, and even then depending on the cashflo of the place, you can buy a lot of 2465's for the price of a new R&S.......However if you are just being looked over and the company is rolling in cash, I would push harder.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2018, 10:43:57 pm
content: Pete.The company's budget will dictate what's acceptable and unless those that hold the purse strings are engineers too or staff are held in high esteem by management, low cost gear these days is a valid solution.Now, for less than the cost of just one first tier piece of equipment you can fit out a whole bench of gear.Edit.Just placed you Peter.Let me know if you want a proposal drafted to take to management.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2018, 11:00:43 pm
content: Can I suggest you find reasons by thebusinessneeds the equipment. Don't say "I need to do X", but do say "If we did X we would make more money because...".You should never use your own personal equipment at work, for many reasons. OTOH finding imaginative ways to do something always looks good on a CV.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2018, 01:07:26 am
content: I would at least require a decent oscilloscope and I would be very careful to select a low cost one with mature firmware OR just go for a used oscilloscope from an A-brand if the budget is small.Furthermore a decent (linear) lab power supply and a bench DMM would be on my wishlist. These don't need to be really expensive though. From there it will depend on what you are working on. I often find myself buying (used) equipment for specific projects.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 28, 2018, 01:06:10 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on February 27, 2018, 11:00:43 pmI will underline this statement. The reasons are, indeed, more than one or two.

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 28, 2018, 04:39:11 pm
content: An employer looks at profit. If an employee is willing to use his equipment to the benefit of the employer it is unlikely that the employer will stop the practice. They might even start to assume that it is normal practice. Stop using your equipment.Seeing as it is the bottom line that counts, make sure your employer knows that you are wasting time trying to work around bad equipment. Make sure they know. "Sorry it took so long to get this done but the oscilloscope is so old I had to (fill in the blanks)". After a few times of them seeing you wasting time getting things done because of lack of equipment they might decide to ask you what you need.This situation happened to me. I had an old computer that took 15 minutes to generate a plot from the CAD program I was using. When it was time to plot I would start the process and get up and walk around the shop. The owner saw this a few times and asked me why I was not at my desk. I explained the problem. He asked what I needed and I got a new computer within a week.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2018, 04:56:00 pm
content: Quote from: Lightages on February 28, 2018, 04:39:11 pmOTOH I don't like dicking around for weeks if I have a specialist piece of equipment sitting at home which can give me an instant answer but my employer could never justify let alone afford that piece of equipment because it has to be new, servicable, supported, etc. For example I have taken the various high end logic analysers I have owned to work a few times to do very specific measurements.Other than that I agree that an employer should have the basics covered.

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 28, 2018, 05:06:02 pm
content: In your example nctnico, you should have rented your equipment to the shop, or asked for a one time use fee. Unless your employer gives you benefits for your providing something to them, they shouldn't get it. I have learned this many times. If it comes down to using you and making a profit, they always accept. When it comes to you needing personal help that might inconvenience them or cost them, they usually decline. Your time and money is always theirs but theirs is never yours.Yes, there are exceptions....

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 28, 2018, 05:14:15 pm
content: To answer the other part of the OP's question, what equipment?2 multimeters1 DSO of the needed bandwidth1 LCR and/or ESR meter1 dual power supply1 soldering station1 hot air stationAny needed hand toolsThat is the minimum I would expect. Anything extra for the specific type of work too, such as; inspection scope, logic analyzer, fume extraction, desoldering equipment, function generator, etc...In most shops any generalized hand tools such as wrenches, screw drivers, etc are the responsibility of the worker.

author: ajb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2018, 07:01:35 pm
content: Quote from: Lightages on February 28, 2018, 05:06:02 pmMeh, depends on the employer and your relationship. I have no problem occasionally using my stuff at work because my employer has no problem with me occasionally using work stuff for personal projects. As long as neither side is abusing the situation and you're not getting into regulatory issues or something it's not a big deal. Also consider that if bringing in a specialist tool of yours makes an unusual task quick and less unpleasant then banging your head against a problem with the wrong equipment, then you yourself are benefiting from a less frustrating work environment, aren't you? In that case, the benefit to your employer is incidental. Of course if you're constantly having to bring in your own equipment to get your job done, then there's a problem.

author: sokoloff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2018, 07:25:25 pm
content: Quote from: ajb on February 28, 2018, 07:01:35 pmThis exactly, IMO.I view my relationship with the company I work for as a partnership. They've done well by me; I've done well by them. I don't need that equilibrium to be in balance every second of every day. Sometimes I come in and work 20 hours in a given week. Other times, I work 60 hours in a given week. They don't balk when I post to EEV at 2:25 in the afternoon and I don't balk when my CTO and I are on a video call at 9 PM every once in a while.You can insist on an adversarial relationship with your employer. If you have a terrible employer, maybe that's even the best short-term solution. (A better mid and long term solution is changing employers, of course.)

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 28, 2018, 10:01:24 pm
content: Remember that I said this too:QuoteandQuote

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 28, 2018, 10:06:40 pm
content: This may sound obvious - but even for the casual use and the mutual back-scratching arrangements, be careful about using your own gear if an auditable calibration trail is required ... unless you are prepared to comply.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2018, 10:42:41 pm
content: Not electronics related, but as an employee I have personally purchased an item to use only in that job (i.e. not useful elsewhere). My justification was that it made my life easier and I had less stress - there was a shortage of these items and sometimes I wouldn't arrive early enough to bag one for a shift. Whilst the work could be done without one, and they were supposedly shareable, my ambience improved greatly by not having to worry about it. As a bonus, I could lend it out to colleagues for brownie pointsI think a blanket 'no' rule doesn't take into account the benefit to the employee. Changing my diet benefits an employer too for no cost to them, but no-one would suggest staying on KFC to spite them.

author: BillB
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 28, 2018, 11:29:46 pm
content: I've pretty much outfitted my office almost entirely of stuff I've brought from home; some test gear, but mostly decent computing equipment, ergonomic stuff, etc. I get tired of spending time arguing with the bean-counters trying to justify everything. Life is too short, and I spend way too much time in the office to settle for crappy gear.I have no worries about my employer getting used to it, as I'm pretty much the only one that does it. Everyone else just accepts it, so I've just come to the conclusion that I apparently must just be an @ssh*le with extravagant tastes.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2018, 11:48:52 pm
content: Quote from: BillB on February 28, 2018, 11:29:46 pmWhat happens if something goes wrong and a colleague is injured? Who is responsible? Who gets sued? Who has to pay someone to defend themself against manifestly stupid lawsuits?

author: BillB
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 01, 2018, 01:22:46 am
content: Quote from: tggzzz on February 28, 2018, 11:48:52 pmI didn't say I brought stuff in for others to use. My colleagues can use the crap supplied by the company.I'm not bringing in chainsaws for juggling, and we work on benign, low-voltage stuff so I'm not too worried about anyone getting injured. Besides, most of my co-workers are smart enough not to stick probe tips into their eyes or anything like that.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 01, 2018, 01:46:57 am
content: QuoteNormal duty of care would apply, wouldn't it? No different to your neighbour popping round and tripping over a cable.If you're lending stuff out, still the same: there is a difference between someone asking you to let them borrow what they know is personal stuff, and an employer telling them to use this tool to perform that task.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 01, 2018, 01:49:36 am
content: My last job before I retired did not have a functional Oscilloscope ( the old Tek 545 was faulty & only had aSpec An plugin in any case.)We had a nice Spec Analyser with tracking generator to cover most of the RF stuff, plus a MFJ antenna analyser.There were test loads, but no directional couplers.We had many problems in the control circuitry of these Transmitters, so it was a nightmare to fault find without a 'scope.I brought my little Jaycar 10MHz thing in, & it was like having bad eyesight then getting glasses!The other bloke brought in his Tek later, & later still, I purchased a Tek 7613 & brought that in.The so-called EEs who made the stuff didn't tune them up correctly, so we had to do that.Without my directional coupler ( rescued from the junk bin at a previous job), we would have been in strife.As to your dilemma, have you tried getting the Boss to hire stuff from Tech Rentals?Sometimes the costing for hire goes under a different category from that for purchase.

author: mrpackethead
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 01, 2018, 05:13:14 am
content: Quote from: Brumby on February 28, 2018, 01:06:10 pmActually i disagree. As an employer i've found it an excellent way for tools to be kept in great order, not get lost and broken. Of course if you require this, you have to be prepared to pay 'tool' money to the staff. I've never had anyone have a problem with it. When someone new starts, it may be that we need to advance them some tool money so they can buy some kit to get started. And we will.This of course, is for the basic tools + laptop. I'm not expecting ( or want ) people to buy a $5000 scope or an expensive bit of test kit that one is enough across the entire shop. I'm talking yoru basic handtools + your own basic multimeter + laptop. people love havint their own gear, they really look after it. If people want to borrow somethign they ask the other guy, not just take it. ( and they do borrow and loan! ).. i've found that sometimes some new tools for their toolbox are really appreicated as a bit of a bonus.. ( way more than a some silly gift ).

author: Jeroen3
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 01, 2018, 07:36:31 am
content: Quote from: mrpackethead on March 01, 2018, 05:13:14 amI sometimes bring some of my own tools to show how even low budgetmoderntools can help speed up the thing you're working on. Since, "we've been doing this for years this way" is not a proper argument to reject progress.Brought in my DS1104z to show how incredibly useful a modern DSO is, it worked. Did the same with cheap UNI-T current clamp.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 01, 2018, 08:52:34 am
content: Quote from: Jeroen3 on March 01, 2018, 07:36:31 amThat's reasonable, but is very different fromusingthem at work.

author: BillB
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 01, 2018, 01:45:25 pm
content: Quote from: mrpackethead on March 01, 2018, 05:13:14 amThis is a great point! I've worked with, and had the displeasure of sharing tools with slobs who couldn't care less about the condition of the stuff they use. They seemingly think their mommies come around and clean up after them as well since they don't know how to put stuff back where they found it.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 01, 2018, 02:29:13 pm
content: Quote from: mrpackethead on March 01, 2018, 05:13:14 amIf I understand you:the employer buys the tools, albeit indirectlyan employee's names is on each, either literally or metaphoricallyThat's fine, and isnotbringing your own tools to use at work.I presume the employer pays for any necessary calibration and safety checks, the former to ensure decent products and the latter for insurance/liability concerns.

author: mrpackethead
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 01, 2018, 11:10:03 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on March 01, 2018, 02:29:13 pmNo the employee buys the tools. They own them 100%. Sometimes they are purchased via work, but not always. They are paid 'tool' money to provide them.. I've found it to be a very cost effective way.Yes, people tools are largely labeled / engraved, but many are not. the guys respect each others gear and don't go picking it up, of someone elses bench. Theres somethign thigns that are just impossible to label. There are some common tools as well. and some things we consider 'disposable' are bought by the company.. For example blades for a knife, driver bits. I take a 'rsonable' apporach. I know that they will probalby take a driver bit hoime and use it. In the big scheme of things thats ok. Becuase they also probalby will stay late at work when they have to, or help out in other ways. Its about looking after each other and it goes a LONG LONG WAY.Theres not much (anything) in each individuals kit that needs to callibration. We have some calibrated bench multimeters which a not individuals, but the multimeters in your toolbox are not calibrated other than when they are new. Primarly they are just being used for intial diagnositics etc. We do have OSH rules about tools.. For example your multimeter leads need to be in good condition.For the guys, if they actually look after their gear and dont' loose it. They actually will have surplus money over what they need to spend. the result, i see better tools in their tool kits. One guy is mr tool OCD. everyone of his tools is absolytely cared for like they are his children. I am probably the worst at looking after my own tools and probably get the most stick about the state of my tool box.It works for us. You just need to have a environmetn where people trust and respect each other.

author: ajb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 02, 2018, 07:00:20 pm
content: One point about using a majority of tools that you own at work: At least in the US, this is one of the factors that the IRS uses to determine whether a worker is an employee (W-2) or contractor (1099). The distinction has substantial tax implications, and a number of unscrupulous employers have taken advantage of workers by offering them slightly higher pay as contractors. Because this shifts a substantial tax obligation from the employer to the employee, it saves the company money, and the worker, who jumped at the slightly higher paycheck, winds up with a net pay cut when tax time rolls around. There are also implications for additional benefits and insurance, liability etc.Employee vs Contractor isn't a clear, hard line in the US, so the IRS uses a series of factors in making a determination. If you already meet most of the requirements for an employee, then bringing your own tools won't suddenly make you a contractor, but if you are in a gray area, and especially if your employer is attempting to shoehorn you into being a contractor on paper then bringing your own tools could tip the balance.

author: FrankE
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 03, 2018, 01:49:11 am
content: Quote from: tggzzz on February 27, 2018, 11:00:43 pmThis. I never got back a few thousand pounds worth of gear from a company including my 189, a Megger, loads of tools, Makita charger and batteries, a commercial pressure washer.They threatened Police and big lawyers when I tried to attend site to collect it. If you take your own tools you have to consider what if things go sour and you are locked out from retrieving your stuff. Do you have a manifest?Not long after they were in in court for an asbestos regulation violation and they wound up. Half the client management in that area were sacked.

author: mrpackethead
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 03, 2018, 03:38:45 am
content: Quote from: ajb on March 02, 2018, 07:00:20 pmOver here, its a widely done practice, across all sorts of industrys.. Butchers and Chefts will have their own knives, Meachanics will have their own spanners. Builders will have their own hammer, hand saw etc etc. And in fact if you are made bankrupt your 'basic tools of trade' are actually exempted. They can't take them, as then they stop you from earning a livign.Its a balancing act is'tn it.

author: Fludo
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 03, 2018, 12:39:15 pm
content: For mains work I would require a nice fluke DMM and a tool kit capable of stripping + terminating any cables in questionIn addition a schematic or print with specifications and instructions. For pcb work you should be using an oscilloscope and probes with enough bandwidth, memory, and sample rate to reconstruct the signal accurately. A good communication interface is necessary for saving waveforms and communicating any glitches seen.I've been in the situation where a high resolution scope was required for calibrating hardware for field use, but management didn't want to spend the money. The company was only 100 employees, my boss and I were operations and had to borrow the one scope capable of measuring a 5 pico coulomb pulse from R&D. There were hundreds of units that needed to be serviced and every contract needed one before they could begin work. The only other option was a boat anchor lecroy which had a dead channel and wood screws in place of a few knobs. Hand tools were another story, I spent more time looking for them than using the tool. I eventually got my own tool box but it required the presidents approval. In the end my boss and I quit and went to separate companiesNow I'm swimming in piles of test equipment, and anything I need will be ordered asap. Granted, the conpany i work for now has 15k employees and a lot more overhead. Small companies don't have the spare cash to justify a top of the line scope, you need to prove the return value of the purchase.