Asking for advice from the community - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Rah_H
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: September 08, 2022, 05:40:32 am
content: This post is essentially about asking for help or advice from the eevblog community. First, let me explain my situation.I posted on the eevblog forum some time ago for advice from the veterans, regarding a tech startup that I wanted to pursue (cant believe its been 1.5 years). I did get a lot of good suggestions and advice from the veterans. Later, I approached a government funded Venture Capital for seed stage support. I figured out the hard way that the investors are just looking at only the flashy stuffs. Projects of water from air gets buried under money but I cant get any support for my automation and lab equipment R&D (apparently I am not energetic enough). So anyway, I went ahead by myself with some money I borrowed from my family. I launched my business website, wrote all the T&C, made all the branding logo and marketing stuffs as much as I can. I am ready to hit the market with my products but I am in requirement of funding. At this point, I am considering sharing my products for licensed manufacturing. Online shops seems to be the best place for this product. But I am not sure how to contact or approach them. So, the question for the forum is,i.how can I make contacts with these online shops like element14, sparkfun or others?ii.do any one knows of any business entity or anyone who are willing to licensed produce the devicesiii.is there any tips or tricks i should know aboutThe product I am willing to licensed manufacture is called Terminus. It is a 12 in 1 digital signal/testbench generator for students, hobbyist, engineers and researchers. Product linkhttps://arbiterelectro.com/product/terminus/. You can get all the info from the product page. Feel free to reach out to me atarbiter.electro@gmail.com. Any/all help and advice is welcome. Thank you in advance.If this doesn't work, I might proceed with crowd funding. Unfortunately, crowd funding is banned in my country. So I will be back to disturb you all veterans, LOL. Wish me luck (this is ironic as I don’t believe in luck).Best of RegardsHasib Rahman

author: jonpaul
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2022, 05:38:10 am
content: very sorry but you have no realistic business model, or perhaps practical experience in business90% of all start-ups fail in a few yearsFinally international payment, shipping, customs and taxations are now costly and complexBon courageJon

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2022, 05:39:47 pm
content: It looks like an interesting project, but some questions:1. Does it actually exist, or is the website just showing what it’s planned to do once funded?2. What distinguishes this from similar products already on the market, like the Analog Discovery?3. Why on earth would you design it with an RS-232 port, which hasn’t been present on the vast majority of computers for a decade or two?!? On the one hand, that’s a huge turn off. On the other, it makes me (and potential distributors) question your judgement and pulse on the market. (Adding USB costs the same as or less than adding RS-232! I’ve added USB-to-UART chips to boards before, it’s really not difficult.)

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2022, 07:43:20 pm
content: I have been out of the market for a long time, so no idea what people would like to see, but I do agree with tooki that RS-232 is old and definitely not something students will look for. To interface RS-232 with a microcontroller you also need a signal converter to get the TTL or CMOS levels, so instead use something like a CH340 USB to serial chip. Probably cheaper then a RS-232 level converter.Easier to connect to a computer too.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2022, 08:37:02 pm
content: Sorry, but I don't see this board as particulary usefull with the whole Arduino and Rpi ecosystems out there that are very succesful in the student & teaching realm.

author: Rah_H
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: September 10, 2022, 04:19:14 am
content: You are misunderstanding i am afraid. I Should have posted the entire spec. To answer all your questions lets go sequentially.1. R&D is complete. The website shows the actual market ready device. In fact, the algorithm of Terminus was used in several other devices.2. Look at the price tag. Analog discovery is USD $200+ to USD $1000+. This one should not exceed USD $70. Likewise, the capabilities are not as high as the Analog discovery. You get what you pay for.3. I don't understand the hate on the RS-232. So many of the test equipment i have used has a RS-232 for either data out/in or both. That being said, Terminus connects to PC with a USB port. USB-RS232 wire are dirt cheap. The reason why Rs-232 was used is as follows-- The entire device is designed with through hole components. USB-UART bridges are all smd. If the device is sold as DIY with user solders the parts, SMD is significantly more difficult to mount than their through hole counterpart.- I wanted to keep this device "Vendor lock in" free. FTDI bricked a large number of chips not so long age. What if others decide to do the same. This way, the user is free to use whatever they want.- If the user wants to use the Terminus with any of their own project, they can interface directly via UART. It is way easier than interfacing with USB. The device has both direct connection for USB-UART and a onboard level convertor. The user uses what they want.- And lastly, i have tested this both Silab and Prolific chips. Chinese are now selling the USB-UART bridges with 4 to 6 pin ribbon cables. Connecting the entire setup is faster than the bootup time of the PC.In my country I can order from ebay but cant afford the customs tax. I don't know about the western hemisphere, but out here the students are generally broke. I bought my first function generator with a year of savings just to use the TTL output at 20KHz. I made this device to be affordable to students. I would have killed for a simple pattern generator. Only one i had was in Proteus. Thing is, you don't always need USD $1000+ equipment to learn or to teach the basics of digital electronics. This device is intended to teach the very basics of digital electronics. That's why there is a lab manual and a digital electronics text book designed around Terminus. (And students tends to misuse the devices. Blowing up terminus is better that blowing up the USD 200+ devices.)Hopefully I answered everything. Cheers.

author: jonpaul
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 10, 2022, 04:34:40 am
content: Hello againplease define1/ your country2/ expected sales location eg Asia, EU, UK, USA, or just in your country?3/ TH components are becoming expensive and harder to get, vis à vis SMD.4/ most assembly houses will decline or charge extra for TH5/ RS-232 is a relic and no modern PC, Mac or ucontrol has it. USB 1,2,3 and now USB-C provide great full duplex Comm and power.You should research deeper the already existing products and rethink your planning.Just the ramblings of an old retired EEJon

author: Rah_H
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: September 10, 2022, 04:39:31 am
content: This is not meant to be in any way compatible to Arduino or Raspberry Pi. Both of those are development boards. Terminus is a digital testbench generator i.e it can generate user defined digital signals.Not meant to be offensive, but from my point of view, Arduino and Raspberry Pi are a curse for EE students. To learn something, you need to know the basics. You won't learn much by adding a shield or a hat on a development board and using functions/libraries that someone else created. You want to know how a servo motor works, generate the signal yourself. I have seen way too manyFor CS, Arduino and Pi are blessing. For EE, they are a curse. EE is very hardware intensive. Unless you design and assemble your own circuits, you won't learn anything. Arduino & PI are OK hobbyists but for actual electrical/electronics engineering students, they are a disaster. You don't become Wozniak by putting together some readymade modules. Students need to learn the basics and Arduino & Pi are not the way for the EE.Please don't think that this rant is a hostility toward you. I have seen way too many student, even in masters level who has no idea how the simplest circuit works. They all had glittering transcript but no real knowledge on electronic circuits. Even with their good grades, they cant get employed in any commercial/industrial R&D company. They all had been using Arduino & PI their entire academic life. I used Arduino briefly during my 2nd year before switching to the actual AVR. It was significantly difficult but I don't regret it. Got my first job because the employer won't hire Arduino experts.Cheers

author: Rah_H
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: September 10, 2022, 05:03:42 am
content: Hello1. I am from Bangladesh, a small country in south Asia (on the right side of India)2. Sales location is global if possible3. I planned the device back in 2017 when I was a EE BSc student. Yeah, the price has gotten up especially with the international bullies and buttheads flexing their ego at each other.4. The entire product can be DIY, i.e the user assembles or buys the pre-assembled product at a little higher price5. The device uses USB2.0, type B. High speed is not required. It is powered from USB as well.The problem I am facing is financial. Some idiot returned from Europe back in 2020 and escaped the govt quarantine facility and the entire country went on 1.5 months lockdown. Multiple lockdowns in two years. The investors I had lines up suffered losses and back down. For some reason, life always gets me the shortest end of the stick. Just on example ,I had chicken pox twice if you can believe it. Stupid virus has to mutate just when I am starting my life.

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 10, 2022, 08:08:10 am
content: A few comments.Quote from: Rah_H on September 10, 2022, 04:19:14 amTotally unrealistic, manufacturing this in hundreds will cost something around $50-70 for you (components, PCB + assembly). If you want to cover any R&D, support, marketing, bare minimum selling price will be around $200.Quote(emphasis mine)And I don't understand why anyone would hate horses, and a horse carriage in 1890 was a totally viable product, but if you tried to produce cars which lack engine and require adding an external horse in 2022, you can see why no one wants to buy it, yes?Especiallyif the target group is students and hobbyists, look why Arduino was popular: the USB port, and this was already over a decade ago.In other words, computers you connect to have USB ports, they don't have RS232 ports no matter how much you like it. Hence, your product must have an USB port, too. Basically just remove unnecessary level translators (cost savings!) and then integrate the USB-serial chip on-board, look at Arduino for implementation example. Job done.QuoteWhy on the Earth would you do that, and even worse, IC sockets!? What the heck are you thinking? Again the horse thing: the whole electronic manufacturing went SMD 25-30 years ago. This ancient TH DIP IC technology node not only greatly limits your choice of components, it also blows the production costs through the roof (making yout $70 price target even more unrealistic).You literally demonstrate right here the problem: you can't make the product work stand-alone because you can't find the necessary modern day IC you would need, because the arbitrary through hole limitation.SMD design allows automated manufacturing. Chinese will of course wave solder (or hand solder) TH parts for you, too, but SMD gives you smaller board size, meaning further cost savings.QuoteSo will it? You have to decide if this is a "learn to solder" DIY kit, or an instrument. The web page gives an impression this is a pre-assembled instrument (it even states clearly: "category: lab equipment"), not a kit. Note that DIY kits are a completely different business segment. Trying to satisfy both kit customers and those who want an affordable pre-made instrument, at once, is colossally difficult. What you can opt for is to leave the user to hand-solder the few through hole parts (like pin headers).QuoteI agree with that and nothing prevents you from exposing the UART interface to the user.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 10, 2022, 05:55:09 pm
content: IMHO RS232 is still a good interface to use. However, having a USB port with a microcontroller behind it that can run a USB stack, you can create all kinds of devices. One of my sons is into race games. Together with his friends he builds all kinds of gadgets based on an Arduino and some sensors. They use the USB stack to turn the Arduino into -I think- a HID device that can interface with the games through a standarised interface that can input/output game related data. There is whole ecosystem out their for this niche application alone which is basically enabled by having a USB stack on the Arduino.As for the functions of your Terminus device, there is nothing that can't be done using an Arduino or Rpi which can be bought extremely cheap. I don't believe that the tax on top of an Arduino that is sold for a couple of dollars, will be higher than the price of your board. There are tons of Arduino pattern generator projects out there so it is not like you have to spend a huge amount of time to cobble something together. And don't rule out the vast number of cheap development boards that have Arduino style pin-headers like ST's Nucleo boards which benefit from the large range of shields out there. For a software project I'm working on, my development hardware consists of a bunch of Nucleo boards and shields.Bottom line: who and where are the customers for the Terminus board? If there are customers, do they actually care about low cost? Maybe you can sell them for more and offer local service. Not all products get sold by competing just on price. You might be able to enter into the educational realm with the book you have written for use with the Terminus but in that case, customers are buying an electronics course; not just a board. You can add a paid service on top to help people out.