Keysight DSOx2004 vs. Siglent SDS1204X-E - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: W2DML
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2018, 12:50:49 am
content: Hello everyone,I am currently looking to upgrade my bench to a new scope and am struggling to commit to a specific scope. I am about to finish up my EE degree and start my PHD, so I'm looking for a workhorse for my work and personal designs. I recently sold my Rigol DS1102E in the hopes I will get something better, the 2 channels and small screen was limiting me. Note I have some older 1990s scopes which have 100-500MHz bandwidths so I'm not concerned with having high bandwidths, just looking for something modern and easy to use for when I bring work home or decide to work on some hobby projects. Currently I'm stuck looking at two specific scopes due to what they offer:Keyisight/Agilent DSOX2004(USED) ~$1500:-70MHZ 4 channelPRO-I've used these in school and work, enjoy the interface and how the scope "works"-Good Display quality and size-Comes with software bundle which gives wavegen, different communication triggers (Handy for my embedded work), memory upgrade, DVM.CONS-No keysight warranty b/c it is used(not from keysight)-Repair cost is high & problems do exist. (I saw on the forum that some users had black screen boot issues with their 2000 series)Siglent SDS1204X-E ~$500-100MHz 4 ChannelPRO- ~$1000 cheaper than the keyisght- From my knowledge comes with free triggering options( UART, SPI, I2C)- Similar to the 1000 series from keysight has frequency response analysis(bode plots), handy for evaluation filter designs and such.- To do the bode plots, external generator is required, I own a siglent generator so I don't need to purchase the option- Higher Bandwidth compared to the keysight- Can add additional wavegen or logic analyzer while still being less than the keysightCON- I'm assuming since it's a cheap chinese made device, the quality is much worse.- ^ Leads to more bugs and problems than the keysight, less QA/QC.- I have never tried any siglent scope, judging by other products they like to take certain designs from rigol.I hope this post isn't a little weird, this is my first time posting on the forums after years of watching and lurking. I've watched and read a bunch of reviews, posts, and other content relating to both of these products here on the forum and youtube. I'm kinda just trying to get some opinions and a direct comparison between the two before I make a purchase. I'm assuming keysight > siglent based on the name and history, but of course I can be wrong which is why I'm asking you guys. I'm also a bit biased and always dreamed of owning a nice agilent/keysight scope. My main goal is to get a 4 channel scope which has some extra features, nice display which can easily fit 4 waveforms, and quality in the design. I also understand these two scopes are definitely different tiers but also similar in what they bring to the table. I'm also open for other scope suggestions too.Thank you,Dan

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2018, 01:28:07 am
content: Welcome to the forum Dan.A couple of corrections.SDS1104X-E = 100 MHz model.Yes all trigger types and Decode is part of the package....and free !There's a couple of threads you need study for a better understanding of how these 2 scope stack against each other:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1104x-e-in-depth-review/(still more info to come)https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/differences-in-measurements-50hz-keysight-1000x-scope/I've been selling Siglent scopes for a few years now and reliability has been excellent.

author: W2DML
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2018, 01:47:25 am
content: Thank you!My apologies, I meant the SDS1104X-E.I looked through the big review thread of the siglent a few times these past few weeks and am still unsure. As a seller of the siglents, what would be the biggest difference between the 1104x-e and the keysight 2000 series other than the name? To me they both seem to be similar in size, channels, and main features. I'm just trying to find the convincing factor on if I should go cheap again or shell out $1500 for the keysight.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2018, 02:18:09 am
content: Quote from: W2DML on March 16, 2018, 01:47:25 amSorry I got my wires crossed. OK 2000 series.They have greater sampling speed but with all 4 channels active not so much.The KS has a larger display right ?IMO you need look harder at the features they each offer that in both cases are far beyond your 1102E.These new Siglents pack a pretty good package for their price point, in fact they now have features no Siglents had previously.The 3 year warranty might be a deciding factor.

author: DaJMasta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2018, 02:35:49 am
content: To me, the two scopes mentioned are in sort of different classes, and I think $1500 for 70MHz of any flavor is not a good deal. You may not need much, but go in with 100MHz minimum if you're going to be spending over a grand, if nothing else to make sure your square waves and ramps are nice looking.At $1500 you're into the SDS2000X series (just barely, don't see any on their clearance site at the moment) and into the Rigol 2000 series territory too. The $500 entry level scope is a great value, don't get me wrong, but they're not really the same kind of beast as the $1000 range price point. You'll get some more complete software features (though especially with some of the other scopes being a while since they were introduced, the newest entry levels do have a lot of this ground made up), a much higher sampling rate (usually 2-4x per channel), improved waveform updates per second, faster measurement performance when they're enabled, and generally a smoother feeling UI experience.The Keysight in question will give you the higher end feel and polish from the UI and software layout, but is built on a old primary ASIC, so while its performance is good and the design is well tested, stuff like memory depth (and now waveform updates per second) simply don't compare to the more modern cheaper scopes. You always pay a premium for the brand name, but in this case it's also simply outpaced by newer products on shorter design cycles. No idea when Keysight will be introducing a new low to mid range scope, but I think that it's probably worth waiting if it's going to be that costly.My hunch is that the UI of a Rigol or a Siglent will be fairly familiar and not too much of a chore to get used to, even if you miss a couple features or shortcuts from the scope you're used to using. While there are some bugs floating around, they're not brand new products and the manufacturers have patched things - so look through the current complaints and see if there are any deal breakers. The build quality of the Keysight may certainly be better - it's probably more likely to be just fine if it stays on your bench being used for a decade - but the build quality of a Siglent or Rigol is certainly not poor. You've got a Siglent AWG, right? Is that build quality not to your standards? Is the UI obtuse or bug ridden? I'd guess no, and I think that's the sort of experience you'll have on their other hardware.Are there any make-or-break features for you? FFT size? Sample bit depth? Integrated wave gen/automatic bode plot functionality? Logic analyzer channels? Specific math functionality? If you can pick out a few things you need or just want, you can start looking around to see what will offer it, otherwise, it is really tough to beat the value proposition from the cheaper 4 channel scopes with a bunch of options thrown in.

author: IDEngineer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2018, 03:07:16 am
content: FWIW, when I went through this evaluation process a couple of years ago I looked at every manufacturer. I have Engineer friends at HP/Agilent/Keysight and they were adamant that I was not going to own anything but Keysight, so the pressure was on! But ultimately one of the biggest deciding factors was the amount of memory... the Keysight and Tek scopes just seem to go really shallow in the memory department, whereas Rigol (the brand I ultimately selected) had - by comparison - enormous memory depth that enabled types of tests and data gathering that the others either couldn't do or required very expensive memory upgrades to enable.Memory is cheap these days. I don't know why the "big guys" go so shallow on it. But doing so cost them at least one sale (mine), and that was even with the social pressure of my friends really leaning on me.BTW, Rigol support has been excellent. I really like my DS4000 series scope and would replace it if it failed tomorrow (after a fresh market analysis, of course!).Hope this helps, YMMV, standard disclaimers, etc.

author: DaJMasta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2018, 03:20:50 am
content: Quote from: IDEngineer on March 16, 2018, 03:07:16 amI really think it's just the age of the ASIC used. When they developed it, big memory depth wasn't a priority... but it was also it was like 15 years ago or something? Does anyone know when the Megazoom IV was first in a product? It was pretty good when it was released (but it was not a leader then in terms of memory depth), but since the memory is all built in for speed concerns, it's not expandable.The DS4000 series is actually a bit on the older side in terms of release schedules, but it came out recently enough to get the tons-of-memory treatment. I've also got one and it's been very good (though there are a couple minor complaints), but I think the cheapest four channel models are a little over the OP's pricerange (at least, since they're not in stock on rigol's clearance store).

author: W2DML
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2018, 03:26:20 am
content: That's my biggest issue is finding the make or break, I'm looking for something to own for the next few years as my main scope. I dont care about the FFT since I own a spectrum analyzer. The one issue I have with the keysight, it's an agilent and is old. While they still sell them, I feel as if the design is outdated and I don't want a few months down the road see that keysight is releasing a replacement model at a healthy cost. The thing about this model, I calculated the original cost + options installed and I would be paying less than 50% of the list of price which is good. I do enjoy my siglent generator but I still remember the day I plugged it in and had to spend some time trying to change the language to english instead of chinese. The bode plot feature which was announced on the 1000 series was very attractive to me for testing various audio and communications circuits. The problem is a 100 MHz 1000 series with gen is $1200 vs $1500 for the used model I'm looking at. When I saw it available on the siglent, that's when I got interested in the model but I'm still unsure. I definitely don't want an entry scope but being a college student, I can't just spend a few thousand on a scope right now. At work I use a Tek MSO3054 which is amazing but way out of my current budget range, so I'm looking for the in between I guess. I also own an old scope with logic analyzer, which I rarely use. Most modern stuff I do usually is 3 wire or 2 wire interfaces. Most of my time is spent in lower frequencies for embedded systems, audio, and communications. (I mainly work on power line communications for my research which is around 100kHz). If I ever need to work on higher frequencies like 2m and 70cm bands, I have a very old yokogawa for that. My main goal is to get a good quality 4 channel scope which can give me accurate measurements, a big enough screen where I can easily view my 4 channels, and be worth keeping on the bench for a few years before I have upgrade money for something higher. Also to add if I'm already going to be paying $1000+ for a siglent or rigol I would probably go brand name and get the used keysight.If I would outline exactly what features I want/need:-4 Channels-Large display compared to the entry level scopes-UART/I2C/SPI triggering-Standard Math Functions-USB connectivity, ie. keysight has excel plugins and such which are super useful. Even the rigol had a way to capture images-Simple UI, a big turn off of my yokogawa is i need to go through many menues to accomplish simple features-Similar to the UI, should be easy to use, shouldn't be a hassle to take some quick measurements.Extra features that can influence purchase:-Frequency analysis, bode plot: I'm pretty sure this is a newer feature in scopes but I can definitely utilize it. If the 2000 series had this, I would have probably pulled the trigger.-Logic Analysis: While not 100% necessary, I do some FPGA work and it would be an extra feature to have. If the scope is less and comes with this compared to ones without it, it might be a better choice.-VGA out - For a 22 year old, I'm pretty blind I guess. It would be nice to connect a monitor to really view signals, I do this at work with my Tek MSO3054 and it's great.QuoteI will add and say the keysight I'm looking at comes with the memory upgrade package, I'm unsure if that really improves the memory depth but it has it.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2018, 04:22:07 am
content: The small'ish (7") display of SDS1104X-E is quite good to look at IMO due to the fonts used and I've often used it with the sun at my back on the dining table. The SDS1002X and + models are 8" along with SDS2000X models and they certainly are better to use if you're in front of it all day. In dimmer lighting (normal) I don't need +1 specs that I'd normally use for reading as the display contrasts (default) are good enough to be used without specs (for me).Screenshots that I've posted recently have mostly been with graticule brightness = max as while in normal viewing they are quite clear for some reason they don't capture well to be posted online.Anyways, to add to my ramblings is another viewing option you might like to have a read about:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/open-source-lxi-tools-and-liblxi-v1-0-released-for-gnulinux/

author: Ghislain
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2018, 11:12:35 am
content: W2DML, instead of upgrading to a newer scope in a couple of years, why not thinking of starting with a modern platform from a leading manufacturer that you can upgrade as you require it?The R&S RTB2004 thicks all of your boxes, next to a 10bit ADC, it also provides a large high resolution (touch) screen experience and can easily be remotely controlled using a browser.A 100MHz refurbished ex demo model with basic functionality can be had for 1.500 USDhttp://www.newark.com/rohde-schwarz/rtb2004-b241-z1-z3-demo/digital-storage-osc-100mhz-4-ch/dp/13AC4806This scope can be software upgraded to extend bandwidth up to 300MHz, include MSO functionality, internal ARB, extended memory and whatever decode suits you best (have a look at the RTB-PK1 option pack). There are plenty of YouTube references and there is a large thread in this forum should you wish to read more about it here:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-killer-scope-a-true-game-changer-from-rs-rtb2002-rtb2004/2050/

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2018, 11:27:57 am
content: Quote from: W2DML on March 16, 2018, 03:26:20 amLook at the GW Instek MSO2000E series. Unfortunately no monitor output but it ticks all your other boxes. Unfortunately you'll need to spend a lot more money if you want a bigger screen on the oscilloscope itself. The R&S RTB2000 series has a bigger screen and price tag.BTW: Keysight has pretty good support even on older products bought second hand (from my own experience).

author: W2DML
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2018, 03:40:10 am
content: So after talking to a friend and hearing from you guys, I'm most likely going to pursue the rohde and schwarz. It's much newer and with a touch screen 10 inch screen is perfect for me. Plus the ability to add a mouse, 10 bit adc, and the options available will make this scope last on my bench. Also from the reviews I saw, it's a really nice scope at its tier, better than tek and keysight's current offerings IMO. I do agree that keysight's offering is pretty old and will probably be out soon. I made some phone calls to some distributors to work out some prices and they said they'll even touch base with keysight to find out if anything new is on the way etc. Hoping to get some options for it too and maybe get some student discount or something along those lines. Thanks again guys!

author: DaJMasta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2018, 03:54:34 am
content: I think the R&S is a solid choice in your situation. Yes it is pricey, but it's fit and finish is great and it seems like some of the features are both things you're looking for and things that are tough to get in the right combination out of many scopes on the market. While I'd still maintain that the value proposition in a Rigol or Siglent really can't be beat on the low end by another manufacturer right now (and I think Siglent is probably leading with their latest refresh), the R&S offers some really nice improvements on top of all of the more modern features of those units.I don't know how easy it is to find those demo units, but since there has been some available right near that $1500 price point, it's probably worth looking/asking like you are.

author: W2DML
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2018, 04:08:03 am
content: Yes, I'm currently looking into the demo units at element 14. I made some phone calls at a few places and will see what happens, the demo units will be back in stock in 2 weeks so I have some time to think. 4 channels at 100 MHz is a good price and from the reviews I saw, the FFT feature is really nice and can be useful vs other scope's fft's which are lacking IMO, which means I won't have to upgrade my old spectrum analyzer for a while. Hopefully by April I'll have a new scope to use.

author: Gandalf_Sr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2018, 09:10:37 am
content: If you want to save some money and meet pretty much all of your requirements other than screen size, consider the Rigol DS1054Z that's available from Tequipment.net at around $325 after the eevblog discount. I just bought one as an everyday scope, 4 channels, 24 MPts memory, well debugged, and bandwidth can be upgraded very easily (Google 'Riglol'). After the bandwidth upgrade (the only feature that Rigol aren't giving you for free right now), they apparently come in around 130 MHz bandwidth meaning to all intents and purposes they become a DS1104Z. It will probably meet 99.9% of your needs for the next year or 3.

author: Ghislain
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2018, 09:41:24 am
content: Quote from: W2DML on March 17, 2018, 04:08:03 amJust FYI, the price of the demo scope also includes a very nice R&S soft case (RTB-Z3) and a front cover (RTB-z1) worth USD 300

author: Gandalf_Sr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2018, 10:19:24 am
content: I'm sure that R&S scope is a good one but I fear you're buying a used Ferrari to commute to work when you be better suited with a new Golf. I own a Keysight MSO7104B but it gets used less often than the DS1054Z.

author: Ghislain
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2018, 10:59:30 am
content: Quote from: Gandalf_Sr on March 17, 2018, 10:19:24 amThat may be true for the average hobbyist but in this case, W2DML indicated he already is an EE pursuing a PhD. I am sure he will need all of his time to finish whatever study papers he has to finish focusing solely on that on not having to worry about any software quirks and/or dealing with UI sluggishness when using his scope (among others).

author: Gandalf_Sr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2018, 11:39:04 am
content: Ghislane, Are you in some way connected with R&S? I have no relationship with any test gear manufacturer.Dan may well need a 1 GHz scope eventually but, if all heneedsright now is 100 MHz - 4 ch scope, then a 100 MHz R&S scope that can be upgraded to 300 MHz (for how much???) is not that compelling an argument - it would make more sense to buy the DS1054Z first and then buy a higher end scope (as well) later. The R&S scope you're suggesting has a capture rate of 1.25 GSps which is maintained at all times which is good but the DS1054Z has a sample rate of 1 GSps that drops to 500 MSps if2 channels are used and 250 MSps if 3 or 4 are used. Nyquist theory says that 200 or 300 MSps is all that's needed to sample a 100 MHz signal.The probes for my MSO7104B cost more than a Rigol DS1054Z but it all becomes necessary when looking at close-to-GHz signals so it's really a horses for courses scenario - Dan should buy to meet his needs.Buying the R&S with the idea that you can pay money to enable the features does not seem like a great idea to me; how much would it cost to end up with a 500 MHz scope with decoding and deep memory and does it make sense to lock into older technology when newer stuff comes out all the time? There's also many opportunities to buy on eBay such as the Keysight used section that offer compelling VFM.

author: BillB
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 17, 2018, 11:56:59 am
content: I agree. At the speed that technology is moving, buying any gear that you plan on growing into is false economy. You really don't know what you are going to be doing 3-5 years from now, and what your needs might be.Plus, the secondary market for equipment is quite good, and whatever you buy today (even the Chinese brands) will hold its value pretty well. You will easily make back most of your investment when you want to upgrade.As a student with a budget, you will be doing yourself a great disservice if you don't take the Chinese brands for a spin. I myself was very skeptical at first, but I'm now convinced that for the home hobbiest/embedded/lower frequency stuff, the Rigols/Siglents/Etc offer great value for the money.

author: 0xfede
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2018, 12:22:17 pm
content: Hi W2DML,I actually have a R&S RTB2000-304M with all options and before any fan boy jumps in I have to say something that you should consider:It is bugridden and some bugs are really annoying (like the waveform disappears when zooming in)It is marketing crippled (like half channel decoding and lack of 50 ohm terminator)It has a very low wfms/s rate @ intermediate time base settings (down to about 20wfms/s).It is good bang for bucks? In the actual state I don't think that is worth 6K€ but the platform is interesting if corrected and developed. I should also add that it has a number of interesting features.I also have a Keysight DSOX2024 and, despite all its limtations (especially the small sample memory) is a solid DSO and cost a fraction of the R&S.I cannot say anything for the Siglent since I don't have one.Best,0xfede

author: rf-loop
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2018, 01:44:09 pm
content: Bit OT but I think false informations need still corrected even if it is not so popular in this forum..Quote from: Gandalf_Sr on March 17, 2018, 11:39:04 amThis is claim is not true.True is: DS1054Z have 1GSa/s max if only one cahannel is in use. 500MSa/s if 2 channels are in use and 250MSa/s if more than 2 channels are in use. Afaik it have only one shared Hittite 1511 ADC with one shared acquisition memory.Perhaps you mixed this claim with wishful thinking or then mixed it with truth about Siglent SDS1004X-E models what have2x1GSa/s ADC with 14M memory shared for 2 channels. So it have max 1GSa/s for 1 and 2 channels in use simultaneously both with max 14Mpts.And if more than 2 channels in use then max 500MSa/s for each channels.

author: Gandalf_Sr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2018, 02:30:06 pm
content: rf-Loop, you are right, with 3 or 4 channels, the DS1054Z is only 250 MSps I stand corrected - by the way, areyouassociated with Siglent in any way?

author: Ghislain
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2018, 04:55:07 pm
content: Quote from: Gandalf_Sr on March 17, 2018, 11:39:04 amNeither have I

author: W2DML
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2018, 06:46:12 pm
content: I don't know if I mentioned it but for 4 years I owned a rigol ds1102E and sold it in the hopes of moving away from rigol. Even at work we have 4 channel rigols but mainly the undergrads use them. Before I got my tek, I was using one of the 4 channel ones and it was not fun to use. It felt like a toy and with the small screen it was hard to analyze 4 different signals without making them small or overlapping. Additionally I have a yokogawa DL1740E, which is 500MHz and isn't too bad of a scope but is old, has a tedious UI, and outdated screen which is sometimes hard to see(had to crank up the rgb values and raise other display settings to kinda get a good view at my angle), especially at night. With the scope purchase I'm trying to make, I have no reason to go for high bandwidth or upgrade it for a higher bandwidth. Most of my research currently is in narrowband PLC which is about 100kHz. All my 100MHz+ work would be various ham radio stuff, but even those bands I don't do any designs in. I'm honestly looking for something of quality. I've been doing electronics for about 6-7 years and am about to start my PhD so this purchase I'm hoping will last for the next 5+ years at least, my ds1102E lasted me 4 years but by the end I got tired of using it and went to use my old agilent 54622D which felt nicer to use. I originally made this thread to compare the older keysight dso2000 series to a chinese siglent scope which looked like they were trying to copy or compete with this lower mid range scope. Additionally the used keysight is very close to pricing to the refurbished demo R&S which comes with a case, newer tech, touch screen/mouse control, 100MHz, 10" screen, 3 years warranty, and even probes. I will say scope shopping isn't easy, even when you have a budget of $1000-2000, because you don't want to buy something for that much and then end up having it sit on the back burner because it wasn't good. With my luck I would buy the keysight and then latter this year they would announce a replacement 2000 series with better specs and features, probably lowering the price of the current model. And yes I know there is always better and newer equipment to be bought but when I mention the keysight, it's really old unlike the R&S or even the siglent. Also to add if I was going to just go super cheap ie. the rigol I would probably at that point get the cheap intro keysight model while sacrificing channels and bandwidth. (This is a last resort option)Thanks again,Dan.

author: Gandalf_Sr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2018, 08:04:08 pm
content: Dan, It's way over your stated budget but there's a niceMSOX2024A scopeon Keysight's eBay store. You won't get ANY accessories, no probes etc but the logic analyser is enabled, it's calibrated, and it comes with the full-feature DSOX2APPBNDL bundle which lists at $1,250 on its own. I've found that these guys will accept an offer of 90% of the asking price so, if you're interested, you can try for $2,175.00, maybe even a bit lower and work up.This is how/where I bought my MSO7104B, I then bought probes and the logic analyzer leads for a few hundred more by watching eBay. Unbeatable VFM and you know you'll get a defect-free scope.

author: W2DML
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2018, 09:22:21 pm
content: That is a bit over budget + buying the logic probes make it pricey and something I don't need since my 54622D has a logic analyzer I rarely touch anymore. I found this DSOX2004 which also comes with the software bundle for way less oneBay auction: #232126748758. My only question is, is it worth getting the keysight even though it's pretty old and has low memory depth? I feel like for $1500 I rather get the R&S at this point, seems more attractive and newer.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2018, 09:26:31 pm
content: Again: look at the GW Instek MSO2000E series. It has mature firmware, deeper memory compared to the Keysight DSOX2000, does most of the things the R&S RTB2000 does and GW Instek has a warranty on it which ends 5 years after they stop producing the model.

author: TK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2018, 12:03:21 am
content: You can also consider the Micsig TO1104. 4 Channels, 100MHz, serial decode and triggering, deep memory, HDMI port for external monitor, touch screen in a tablet format. Price is around $475

author: Gandalf_Sr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2018, 12:36:33 am
content: Quote from: W2DML on March 17, 2018, 09:22:21 pmI only paid $50 for the logic cable but that was a steal. Beware of brand fan-boys steering you to buy their preferred products - the R&S is "buggy" according to 0xfede who has one - I don't have any R&S products. I had a Siglent scope that had components missing off the PCB but they wouldn't RMA it - after three attempts to resolve, they eventually agreed to give me my money back; that is not an isolated story. I'm not saying all Siglent stuff is bad but it does raise concerns with me and others about Siglent standing behind their 3 year warranty claims.

author: Elasia
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2018, 01:59:58 am
content: Quote from: Gandalf_Sr on March 18, 2018, 12:36:33 amInteresting... I'll have to keep that in mind if i ever need to invoke it.HP/Agilent/Keysight... its the old tried and true like Teks. We actually got some 2004s at work.. they are ok, it does what it says on the box and they charge a shitload to enable the options. Your going for your PhD.. I'd say the Siglent is at least worth a gander and if you dont like it after testing it, just return it. Worst case is you know something like an agilent will just work out of the box and have a fall back plan.

author: W2DML
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2018, 07:44:24 am
content: It would be great to know of a place I can try a specific scope out or a store that can ship me a trial scope for the siglent and r&s. Additionally it would be great to know some more details on the bugs 0xfede is having. I'm trying to avoid brand fan boys but tbh I am one myself, keysight followed by tekI looked at the GW instek again and while it provides the options, it looks meh, especially the screen. The micsig looks cool but I'm not looking for a tablet. I also find it interesting more people are recommending cheaper chinese brands over R&S, Keysight, and Tek. Has anyone tried the new Tek tbs2000 series?

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2018, 08:11:49 am
content: Quote from: W2DML on March 18, 2018, 07:44:24 amSimple, bang for buck !Don't in any way consider the likes of myself totally one eyed as my first DSO was a Tek and I have a soft spot for them, after all they've been in the game longer than most.As far as trialing one, use the Siglent US 'how to buy' and find your local reseller:https://www.siglentamerica.com/how-to-buy/The range of choice we have today is unprecedented and that in itself make selection harder so other than detailed study of datasheets and forum member recommendations*, you haven't got many other avenues other than to 'try before you buy'. It's not like you're a scope newbie so things like UI and GUI are gunna mean more to someone like you. Dive back through the many threads looking at screenshots for the info that can be gleaned from them that makes use of a DSO intuitive and simple.*Just as you have recognized fanboy's you also need be aware of the opposite, members with some grudge against a brand for whatever reason. This might have arisen from just one bad experience and with a model that's not of interest to you.

author: 0xfede
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2018, 10:40:44 am
content: Quote from: W2DML on March 18, 2018, 07:44:24 amThere is a thread about the RTB2004 and I suggest to read it from page 77 (when it was released the latest firmware, 2.00) to the end (page 83):https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-killer-scope-a-true-game-changer-from-rs-rtb2002-rtb2004/1900/It contains all kind of bugs as longs as a couple of table concerning the wfms/s at various settings.The bug I used as example happens always:+set the DSO in NORMAL mode, whatever trigger source+wait the trigger to happen+zoom (in or out) the waveform using the time/dive knob=the waveform is clearedIf you are looking for an elusive event you will loose a lot of time. I cannot figure out how it slipped in production since it is a very common usage for a DSO.The half channel decode refers to the fact that you have 2 decode channels and you need both for decoding a full duplex bus (like UART or SPI). And even here there is a bug that you cannot set the secondary channel threshold from the decode menu.Best,0xfede

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2018, 10:46:35 am
content: Quote from: W2DML on March 18, 2018, 07:44:24 amYou don't need to sleep with test equipment so don't bother with how it looks. In the end you need it to work for you.I have used the Tektronix TBS2000 series at a customer. It is nice, does what it should do but it doesn't have decoding or any other fancy options. What the TBS2000 is missing is a touch screen. The user interface seems to be build for a touch screen. Whenever I use it, I'm inclined to press the screen instead of using the select knob.

author: VintageHenk
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2018, 03:06:51 pm
content: Don't bother with the Chinese stuff, the UI is horrible, especially on scopes with a shared vertical control knob. Keysight makes the most responsive scopes on the market due to their ASICs and puts in a lot of effort in the UI. It really makes a huge difference when using your scope every day.Personally don't like the R&S UI either, way too small fonts, too many menus to get what you want... but yeah, the hardware specs are quite a bit better for the same amount of money.

author: IDEngineer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2018, 03:27:30 pm
content: Quote from: VintageHenk on March 18, 2018, 03:06:51 pmHave to agree that a shared vertical knob would be a huge mistake. Happily, only the very cheapest scopes do that. There are plenty of very reasonable options from virtually any manufacturer that have dedicated control sections for each vertical channel.While we're discussing UI's, one thing I do NOT like is a touch screen. Just has no place on a scope IMHO. When I reach up to the screen, my finger and hand are obscuring the thing I want to be viewing. Plus you're always smudging the screen with whatever is on your fingertips. On some of the "laptop-scopes" a touchscreen is almost a necessary evil to get the screen size in a reasonably sized package, but on a real scope you should be able to adjust the settings while watching how those adjustments affect the display. And to top it all off, a touch screen generally costs more - you are literally paying more money for a worse UI, while adding just another layer of unnecessary technology that can break at some point and disable your expensive scope.Yeah, I know... touch screens are easier for specifying certain specialized trigger events. Fine, if you want that, make the touch screen an option for that purpose. But don't force large portions of the UI onto the touch screen "just because it's there". Unlike smartphone fanboys, Engineers are trying to get real work done - not impress their friends with multi-finger gesture sensing ("Cool, the latest scope is down to just one 6D joystick!!!"). Touch screens improve a few things, but they're not the de facto answer for everything on an oscilloscope.This is my $0.02, worth exactly what you paid for it, YMMV, opinions are like you-know, standard disclaimers, etc. No offense intended if you feel differently, buy the scope you prefer and I'll do the same! {grin}

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2018, 03:46:46 pm
content: If you are still somewhat considering a Rigol, I am very satisfied with my DS4014 - although they have been on the road for a few years now, they have a great selection of features and can be upgraded (for free, if you are into that) to significant specs.I got a good deal on mine from Rigol's clearance store.

author: IDEngineer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2018, 04:49:38 pm
content: I just happened to notice that the Siglent SHS810 - ahandheldscope - has 2Mpts of memory.The Keysight Infiniivision 2000X series has... wait for it... 1Mpts. If you're careful to buy one manufactured after 05Mar2018 they toss in option DSOX2MEMUP to add a bonus 1Mpts.I wish someone would explain why memory is so shallow in these higher end scopes, when even the handhelds come stock with more. Ironically, I believe the memory may already be physically present in the scopes and you're just paying a license fee to unlock it!

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2018, 06:04:40 pm
content: Quote from: IDEngineer on March 18, 2018, 04:49:38 pmThe keysights use an ASIC that has this memory barrier, although it allows for a faster wfm/s rate. Other architectures use FPGAs with discrete memory devices, thus allowing complete reconfigurability at the expense of wfm/s.With true memory segmentation the memory limitation can be worked around in several scenarios, but tracking random events in long streams can be challenging.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2018, 06:08:45 pm
content: Quote from: rsjsouza on March 18, 2018, 06:04:40 pmNot only that but in many cases it is easier to capture a long trace and then zoom into the detailswithoutneeding to setup complicated triggers and do a recapture. However that only works if you have several real Mpts to work with (remember: on a Keysight scope the amount of memory can be over 8 times less than what it says on the badge).

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2018, 06:56:14 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on March 18, 2018, 06:08:45 pmYes, the "blockbuster" approach is something only a large amount of memory can give you, especially if you have no idea what type of glitch is happening to properly set the triggers.Regarding available memory... Yes, that is somewhat par for the course if storing multiple channels.

author: Gandalf_Sr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2018, 08:29:30 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on March 18, 2018, 08:11:49 amI don't have a grudge against Siglent, I only relayed what my experience was, you yourself agreed they treated me very badly Rob. What I find unfair is when people looking for genuine advice get toldbuy brand X, it's awesome!when the poster actually makes their living selling brand X and does not state that in their signature block.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2018, 08:37:06 pm
content: Quote from: Gandalf_Sr on March 18, 2018, 08:29:30 pmWhich member could you be referring to Ted ?Quote from: Gandalf_Sr on March 18, 2018, 08:29:30 pmNot so fast Ted, you're not the only one as everybody with the same SN# unit as yours could've been treated better IMO but I don't make Siglent policy and they wouldn't listen to a tiny tin pot dealer in the back of beyond anyway. You are one of many that have contacted me on that issue. We should have a vid on that rework issue soon.

author: Elasia
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2018, 09:45:03 pm
content: Quote from: VintageHenk on March 18, 2018, 03:06:51 pmThats the one thing i hate immediately about this siglent im getting... shared knobs.... but for the price im willing to entertain it if the data output is just as good compared to the specs listed on the box... really interested in seeing this bode plotter they baked in. The serial decode is good for me too.. i do a fair bit of uart/can/spi, comes in handy to trigger and capture events. Like anything else, it really comes down to what are you planning to do with it and does the specs line up with the work?

author: Elasia
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2018, 09:54:18 pm
content: Quote from: IDEngineer on March 18, 2018, 04:49:38 pmTheir dedicated ASICs are both their best thing since sliced bread and their achilles heel. If they cant increase their turn around time to market, the Chinese are on course to really wreak their bread and butter markets like they are for the low end scopes. Love or hate the Chinese... their rapid turn, fail and fail fast methods get new products to market at an absurd rate giving them a huge knowledge boost. They are pretty much in their own golden age.

author: W2DML
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2018, 10:40:49 pm
content: To add, I read through the R&S thread as 0xfede suggested and saw the bugs discussed. Assuming R&S is a reputable company, hey are working on fixing these bugs in the firmware. (I'm unsure how long that will take.) Additionally I feel like the R&S is the best option still compared to the keysight but the more I crack into the details the harder it gets to decide. If I'm assuming correctly the keysight is mature in FW yet due to it's age has a lower sampling rate which might affect measurements. I saw a GW vs. Keysight scope comparison and the keysight was skipping overshoots on a square wave vs the instek which isn't good. Additionally I feel like the R&S wouldn't be worth paying 2k+ for due to its bugs in the firmware and options which aren't implemented as well as the keysight or other brands. If I'm going to be honest, I would have probably not found most of these issues that were reported when using the scope but it's good to know they are there. As of right now I'm waiting to hear back tm from some reps and I'm leaning towards the R&S still. If not I might just go get the old keysight or maybe get lucky and find a cheap 3000x series. Last case scenario I'm looking at the siglent, $500 is definitely a safer purchase for me than over $1000.Extra note: It seems as if every T&M equipment has problems, it seems as if I'm now looking for the one with the least problems in my use case at this point.

author: IDEngineer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2018, 10:58:33 pm
content: Quote from: W2DML on March 18, 2018, 10:40:49 pmI think that statement pretty much sums up most high tech purchases these days. Figure out what you need to do, list the devices that will do it, then pick the one whose shortcomings are LEAST objectionable.

author: W2DML
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2018, 11:05:08 pm
content: I forgot to ask in my last post but if I do go with the agilent/keysight, do you guys think the lack of memory depth will affect my measurements seriously? From what I read it looks like keysight does their measurements and such post acquisition vs during it like the R&S. Correct me if I'm wrong

author: Elasia
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2018, 03:05:02 am
content: Quote from: W2DML on March 18, 2018, 11:05:08 pmBigger isnt always better. Found a decent article to explain why.. gist of it is if the processor gets so bogged down if you go to fast and to deep your response will go to utter trash. Much like all the other options, its best to read up on what that facet does and if its something you care about and if so what do you want out of it.That said I've never really had to much issue with KS less im really pushing it hard but im usually just fooling about if im doing something like that... (i've managed to super bog some down to where i could go get coffee.. lol) we got a good selection of scopes to work with so mix and match does work out nicely by having a variety.https://www.eetimes.com/document.asp?doc_id=1279463

author: Gandalf_Sr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2018, 08:04:19 am
content: One aspect of scopes that often isn't focused on enough is screen update rate or waveforms per second (WPS); Dave has done a review of the Keysight DSOX2000 series (). Anyway he shows how WPS affects what you see on the scope and more is definitely better, the point being that you may have a big memory chip inside the scope that stores data at 10,000 screenfulls per second but if the screen only shows you 100 WPS then the chance of seeing a pulse that happens once every blue moon is poor. So even the Rigol DS1054Z with (upgraded) 24 MPts of memory will not do as well as the DSOx2004 in real world tests when trying to see a glitch because it lacks the processing power to update the screen as fast as the KS - at least that's my understanding - Manufacturers of course like to pick numbers to say "my brand has more <X> than the other brand". If you're trying to capture long sequences like serial data streams then lack of deep memory obviously limits you but segmented memory was invented to cure that, it only uses the memory when there's actual data to be captured. IMHO, a scope is only really good for checking the signal integrity of a serial data stream and being able to trigger on a certain pattern is useful but to start tracking what's happening with the actual data, you need a real logic analyzer like a Salea Logic 8/16.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2018, 08:14:44 am
content: It's not about raw performance but the tools you have at your disposal Ted.A good trigger suite and color grading can help immensely like in the simple exercise I showed here:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/msg1370717/#msg1370717

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2018, 09:02:47 am
content: Quote from: Gandalf_Sr on March 19, 2018, 08:04:19 amWaveforms/s doesn't depend on the processing power. (Almost) every scope uses an ASIC of FPGA to draw the traces. There are three issues with waveforms/s:1) The waveforms/s number depends on samplerate and memory depth so it isn't constant.2) Tests about waveforms/s are more often then not skewed to show more waveforms/s are better in very particular situations. If you slow down timebase you'll capture more signal and thus increase the chance you'll see the glitch.3) A high waveforms/s number doesn't guarantee capturing a glitch. A trigger condition does.Deeper memory however is not something you can work around easely. Segmented recording is handy to capture rare events which happen at long time intervals (say less than 1 times per second) but it isn't a replacement for deep memory because you loose the context of the segments. You can usually look through them one-by-one but the big picture is missing. All in all I'd recommend to get an oscilloscope with at least 10Mpts per channel with all channels enabled.

author: 0xfede
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2018, 09:42:47 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on March 19, 2018, 09:02:47 amI completely agree with nctnico. To expand this view a little further I must say that when I turn on the scope is because I don't know what I'm looking for. If I'm able to set a peculiar/complex trigger is because I already know exactly what is going on and therefore the DSO is not useful anymore.Deep memory is very important and I wouldn't add a fixed limit to my wish list; it is way better to calculate memory/samplerate that gives the time that the sample buffer have before it gets filled.Best,0xfede

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2018, 10:22:08 am
content: Quote from: Gandalf_Sr on March 19, 2018, 08:04:19 amYou are so correct. And then you fall into same trap and buy Keysight sales pitch...Problem is that you cannot do some things if your memory is short, segmented or not.Like there is no replacement for higher bandwidth and sample rate, there is no replacement for memory depth.Short retrigger time is very good because you have less blind time.So if you enable long persistence, you will very quickly see on the screen that since you started capturing, there is something that is not supposed to be there...And that is great advantage only for some frequencies of glitch appearance.. If glitch is repeating faster than some frequency, it will be detected immediately on fast retrigger scope, but on slower one in a few seconds. It will be slower, but not in a way that will impact your work.It will also depend on time base...Of course, you will have no clue when it happened, what caused it and what is time correlation and so on.. Then you have to devise clever ways how to figure that out.. You then have to start trying different triggers until you get to be able to catch it.But all that stuff only works on small subset of signals you work with.. simple, highly repetitive stuff.. Clocks are good example...And glitch has to be repetitive, and you have to be able to recapture signal over and over until you catch it.What happens if you have a glitch that is seemingly random...On the other hand, i have a scope that can capture 0.2 seconds worth of signal at 1GSa/sec. It can also do fast segmented capture without screen updates at 1.3M/Wfms second..Then I run analysis on that particular capture, in one way, and another way, and another... I can do it till' the chickens come home, go to sleep and resume doing it next day and keep on goin' like that for weeks... You can send someone to other town to do the capture, and you analyse it in your home office.Despite what either fanboys will tell you, neither way is better. It depends on what you do, and how you do it...So yes, it's not simple if you don't have a lot of money to just buy whatever you feel like at any moment...Regards,Sinisa

author: Rich@RohdeScopesUSA
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2018, 01:51:00 pm
content: Quote from: Elasia on March 19, 2018, 03:05:02 amOh the irony - I wrote that article when I was still at AgilentIn the end, the article's premise still holds true, but it was also written 6-years ago and some things have changed (in particular, FPGAs helping to give both fast update rate and deep memory without the need for an ASIC that limits you to one or the other). In general, I tend to agree with the folks who have said that update rate is something you can make up for with additional time - memory can't be made up for, but you should really buy the scope that is best suited for your application(s) and budget.Having said all that, W2DML - please let me know if you would like assistance in demoing a RTB2000. I'm always a fan of trying out the scope you want to buy first. There are also some additional features coming to the 2000 in the not too distant future (like advanced math).-Rich

author: W2DML
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2018, 05:54:55 pm
content: Rich I would definitely like to demo the rtb2000 if that's possible. Its currently the scope that I'm interested in the most.Thanks,Dan

author: Elasia
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2018, 06:05:17 pm
content: Quote from: Rich@RohdeScopesUSA on March 19, 2018, 01:51:00 pmROFLMAO... small world!Yeah, FPGA tech has been amazing what they can do now for the price... really interested to see what this siglent does whenever it manages to come in.Edit: Should throw this out there as well, cant go wrong with RS. Some of our guys doing remote IoT devices (as in a mobile industrial machine out in the boonies or bfe) use their gear and its good stuff.

author: Rich@RohdeScopesUSA
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2018, 06:16:15 pm
content: Quote from: W2DML on March 19, 2018, 05:54:55 pmPM'd.-Rich

author: bicycleguy
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2018, 06:36:27 pm
content: Quote from: W2DML on March 19, 2018, 05:54:55 pmFry's Electronics in Ca. USA is still having a clearance sale on there Keysight stuff. $1374 for a DSOX2014A. Back in Nov after visiting several stores, I found an open box of same and talked them down to $999. It was open box because the store had opened it to take two sets of probes to replace stolen ones on the 2 channel floor model. You can try the floor models if they have any left. They seemed anxious to get rid of them back then, don't know about now.Thanks to EEvblog for an additional < $40 for a lan card kit and a few hours studying (more like days) I have a 200mHz 4 channel all options enabled scope!

author: W2DML
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 23, 2018, 06:08:32 am
content: That sounds like an awesome deal, sadly there is no Fry's in Long Island. Our Microcenter which is similar doesn't even carry oscilloscopes...

author: W2DML
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2018, 03:55:36 am
content: I just wanted to come back and say I decided to go with the rtb2004. Thanks to Rich, newark, R&S, and everyone here for helping me out. Definitely recommend the scope, it's awesome

author: Rich@RohdeScopesUSA
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2018, 05:05:19 pm
content: Quote from: W2DML on April 06, 2018, 03:55:36 amDan - glad everything worked out in the end. Enjoy your new scope!-Rich