Ah, here we go again with the “eco” phone nonsense.  - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: eti
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2021, 12:43:14 am
content: These folk are as far from understanding what the man in the street ACTUALLY wants to buy, as the east is from the west.This is an ego massage for a tiny fraction of a VAST consumer base of smartphone users, so they can feel “responsible”, and somehow sleep better at night. Guys, people just want to buy a phone and use it to get things done, and have the interface and mechanisms INVISIBLE to them (the best design is no design at all - it shouldn’t crow about what it’s able to do - the user should try something that feels inevitable, instinctive, and have it happen - this is called “iPhone”)Whether or not (hint: definitely gonna be NOT) this becomes the norm, the average owner wouldn’t know about the inner machinations of their phone - this stuff is, and rightly so, abstracted away from the man in the street so that the experience is:Pick phone up > tap “Mail” > tap “compose” > tap “Send” > put phone down and start cooking dinner. People have busy lives and have better things to do than have you burden them with virtue signalling nonsense like this. The onus is on the manufacturer to make their supply chains environmentally friendly - this is just another failed, tedious episode of the same marketing stunt (or a get rich quick attempt by the designers)It’s all well and good making this stuff, but if it hasn’t caught on by now, errrrrr, helloooo?https://www.androidpolice.com/the-fairphone-4-is-the-companys-sleekestlooking-product-yet/What a load of old nonsense.PS: Normal people don’t care about the hippy dippy “open source” virtue signalling - they rarely would ever know what it means, and good for them - they want it TO WORK WELL, and they want and need superb support, and to know that they’re not the sole person in their entire life that owns this thing, so that someone can help them.This is another load of cack.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2021, 01:13:13 am
content: Quote from: eti on October 12, 2021, 12:43:14 amThey don't care about that directly but they will care about it indirectly when it comes time to keeping the device useful for longer. It provides a way out of the manufacturers deprecating support for a product in order to sell an incremental improvement of the same product, a rather wasteful practice.

author: eti
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2021, 01:18:29 am
content: Quote from: NiHaoMike on October 12, 2021, 01:13:13 amIt'll never take off mainstream. Never. Fact.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2021, 01:21:45 am
content: Now that it's not unusual for a smartphone to cost $1000 or more, it probably won't be long before many get upset about having to spend that more often than necessary.

author: eti
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2021, 01:25:38 am
content: Quote from: NiHaoMike on October 12, 2021, 01:21:45 amI don’t see that many people upset about it. Most people pay in tiny instalments - drip feeding the carriers their costs back. Yeah the phones are a lot, but despite what anyone protests about to the contrary, Apple make the best phones and people will continue to buy them - they’ve earnt their reputation and people want what they know and love.

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2021, 07:55:00 am
content: Heeeloo !! 111 one one !!!Normal people would ban this whole smarthpone nonsense altogether for a multitude of reasons, but there just isn't enough of us to force it.That's what normal people would doeditBut I agree with you that most of the abnormal people would rather buy slightly thinner and shinier unrepairable junk that spies on them and gives them intellectual cancer than a more reliable junk that spies on them and gives them brain cancerThis product will barely make a ROI. But so what? Who cares?

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 12, 2021, 08:25:37 am
content: Quote from: eti on October 12, 2021, 12:43:14 amI have to disagree. I consider myself a "normal person" albeit educated and experienced in tech. Open source has become quite important to me over the years. It's not about "virtue signalling", it's about giving consumers a choice above and beyond the closed-source and tightly controlled ecosystems. As everyday consumers embrace technology, they start learning more about it.Things like internet connected lightbulbs were not that long ago reserved for those who had electronics knowledge. Now, anyone can go down to their local hardware store and set up elaborate lighting systems with automation etc...As for the Fairphone (which obviously did quite well because they've now made a fourth iteration of it), it has some pretty impressive specs for the price whilst also being made of recycled materials. Those things matter to many people. As for support, it's running Android, the most popular mobile operating system/handsets in the world, not to mention the manufacturer aims to continue supplying updates for up to 6 years! How many of your other consumer devices are updated for that period of time?

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2021, 01:06:05 pm
content: Quote from: Halcyon on October 12, 2021, 08:25:37 am::reading this thread on an iPad Air 2, released in October 2014, which just got an OS upgrade to the latest major version a few weeks ago and will continue to receive point updates for at least one more year, probably more…::Say what one will about Apple, they’re really good about providing mobile OS upgrades for far, far longer than the rest of the industry!

author: Just_another_Dave
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2021, 01:49:39 pm
content: Quote from: Halcyon on October 12, 2021, 08:25:37 amFairphone 2 has also been updated to android 9 (it was initially shipped with android 5), while many manufacturers abandon their products after a year from their release date. That also makes it an interesting device for many consumers

author: Just_another_Dave
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2021, 01:56:44 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on October 12, 2021, 01:06:05 pmProviding updates for old devices is actually interesting for them. If they forced you to buy a new device, you might change to android, whereas updating old devices ensures continuing receiving app purchase fees from those users. That motivation doesn’t exist for manufacturers of android devices, as they don’t receive money from apps purchased in old phones

author: Fixed_Until_Broken
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2021, 04:26:39 pm
content: Quote from: eti on October 12, 2021, 12:43:14 amI am picking up some ego massaging going on in this post. The majority of users do care about that hippy dippy stuff they just don't realize it because of technical names. They care about how much it costs to repair, They care about how long their device will stay relevant. Users care about security as well.Security can be improved on open source systems because they don't rely on security by obscurity. Repair costs can be reduced if you are not getting locked out of features for changing screens and so on. The device can be supported longer than the manufacture supports it when open-sourced.I will admit though a lot of consumers just don't understand what it means. it's simply not virtue signalling to care about open source devices... a lot of environment stuff probably is virtue signalling on the end-user but it's respectable for the manufacture to go that route.At first glance, it seems to have respectable specs at a reasonable cost.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2021, 05:21:33 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on October 12, 2021, 01:06:05 pmIMHO they have a history of updating mobile devices about one version beyond where they should have stopped. My old iPhone 4 became nearly useless once it was updated beyond iOS 6, I'm still irked about that frankly, I haven't liked the look of any later version of iOS nearly as well as 6 and earlier either.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 12, 2021, 05:53:51 pm
content: I had a fairphone 2, I did not realize that fairphone 1 was not designed by them just made under their sourcing guidance. So 2 was actually 1 and it was garbadge. 2 screens and 1 camera module later I proclaimed that this thing was apparently fair to everyone but the poor bastard who bought one and told the phone coop where to stick it.I guess they may have got their act together with 3 and hopefully 4 is good. The idea of how the phone comes apart is a nice one, despite this I had to send my phone away for repair when it needed new screens so I really have no faith in them although it was some years ago now.I keep my stuff for as long as it is useful. I have just put a new battery in my 4 year old phone. I guess I may look at the fairphone again later if I need a new one but in my experience hippies and engineering do not go together.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2021, 06:04:11 pm
content: Say everything about the mission statement of the company, etc. The phone seems to be very easily repairable, with very fair specifications and price. As for the common man, phones have reached a level of maturity in features that I wonder what is the proportion of the population that is still rushing to get always the latest features versus going through the work of migrating and moving data across phones, with the occasional adaptation period to a new interface.Quote from: tooki on October 12, 2021, 01:06:05 pmIndeed Apple has many problems (IMO, I know we won't see eye to eye on this), but that is certainly not one of them.

author: Ranayna
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2021, 06:41:34 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on October 12, 2021, 05:21:33 pmBoth my iPhone 6s and my iPad Air 2 still work fine with iOS 15. Browsing has become somewhat sluggish on some websites, but that is more an issue of website bloat.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 12, 2021, 06:47:13 pm
content: Quote from: rsjsouza on October 12, 2021, 06:04:11 pmPeople in the UK lock themselves into contracts, forget they are the ones paying over the odds for the phone then get told thhat they "are entitiled to an upgrade" rather than "we have finished ripping you off. Would you like to buy a new phone the moment you have finished paying for your "old one"" of course this is just 1 or 2 years later so yes people are constantly trying to outdo each other with their phones and keep changing them.

author: eti
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2021, 07:57:51 pm
content: Quote from: magic on October 12, 2021, 07:55:00 amFairphone = Android, Android = Google, and Google = the MASTERS of lacking ethics and spying, the GRAND masters of everything "woke" and devious.

author: eti
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2021, 07:59:19 pm
content: Quote from: Just_another_Dave on October 12, 2021, 01:49:39 pmWe're now on Android *TWELVE*...

author: eti
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2021, 08:03:07 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on October 12, 2021, 05:21:33 pmiPhone 6S is running iOS 15 - that's *SIX YEARS* of updates. Putthatin your pipe and smoke it, Android.

author: eti
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2021, 08:06:30 pm
content: Quote from: Fixed_Until_Broken on October 12, 2021, 04:26:39 pmThat's a nice daydream, but HUGELY differs from the actuality of life, which runs on selling things and making a profit to plough back into the same business to develop more nice things to sell you to make money... et cetera, I don't want to insult you with rhetorical. obvious guff.The smartphone company which, despite its inherent human tendancies and mistakes, has consistently proventhey actually care about security and privacy(and OS updates for SIX YEARS in some cases - I'd like to repeat that again), is Apple, and not one SINGLE other. The industry play-acts, emulating "caring" and they copy various superficial aspects of Apple's countless, complex and elegant layers which make up their winning game, but they come and go, falling by the wayside, fading in and burning bright, then they burn out and vanish - I've seen it for years.

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2021, 09:00:10 pm
content: Seems like a completely reasonable idea to me

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2021, 10:08:11 pm
content: Quote from: eti on October 12, 2021, 07:57:51 pmIt's quite easy to take Google out of Android, without disassembling or rooting the device.https://gitlab.com/W1nst0n/universal-android-debloaterI have never heard of anyone managing to take Apple out of iOS.

author: Fixed_Until_Broken
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2021, 10:30:47 pm
content: Clear cut and dry ego massage.Quote from: eti on October 12, 2021, 08:03:07 pmBTW Blackberry released OS 7.1 back in 2011 or 2010 EOL is January 4, 2022. Just saying. Not sure how long they kept making updates but the military had kept using them up until last year so (US). They now work on android based stuff and blackberries whole business is security.Quote from: eti on October 12, 2021, 12:43:14 amAre you stroking your ego hard enough? I didn't say the manufacture will get security perfect at all in my post. I said security can be improved by being open source.BTW which manufacture was posting people's nudes and sex tapes online from their repair center recently? Oh, that's right apple. Who just had a massive zero-day 2 weeks ago. Apple again. So stop being a fanboy. Android isn't perfect but I am not the one being an ego-stroking fanboy...No manufacture truly cares about security, they care about public image and that's it. Now if public image means you have to work harder on security that's one thing but truly caring give me a break. They care about $$$. everything would be end-to-end encrypted if they really cared.

author: eti
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2021, 10:40:00 pm
content: Quote from: Fixed_Until_Broken on October 12, 2021, 10:30:47 pmYour tone is not conducive to a productive discussion. Ad homimem is never a way to change someone's mind, OR to keep things civil, and I am hoping you can see that. My liking Apple's approach to updates and hardware quality, doesn't automatically make me a raving "fanboy" - why is the internet SO "all or nothing" in these swings to one extremity or the other on a scale of something? REAL PHYSICAL LIFE is not like that, so it baffles me as to why online interactions become this way.I have no time for interacting in this manner - can you not be polite please?

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 12, 2021, 10:55:46 pm
content: Quote from: eti on October 12, 2021, 07:57:51 pmA rather generic and inaccurate comment based on nothing more than opinion I would suggest.If you want facts: Apple devices actually collect and store more user information, including user interaction than Android devices. iPhones are an absolute treasure trove of granular detail if you're the type of person interested in delving into things like the knowledgec.db database.

author: eti
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2021, 11:05:47 pm
content: Quote from: Halcyon on October 12, 2021, 10:55:46 pmThe VERY pertinent difference being in the way iOS is locked down hard and tight, and the ethics of the company that make the devices. Of the two companies, it should be VERY clear which one should trust more. I have been an Apple user and done HUGE amounts of research over the years - pertinently from a known security expert you might have heard of - Steve Gibson of GRC.com (and if you don't know him, do some listening to his podcasts - he's a man of legendary status in the security field)iOS security in INSANE levels of detail, from one that knows what is what in this area:

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 12, 2021, 11:10:20 pm
content: Quote from: eti on October 12, 2021, 11:05:47 pmThanks. You might also like to know that I have over 20 years of experience in the field, including a Master's degree and I regularly give expert evidence on these kinds of matters in high level courts. I also teach on the subject at Universities across Australia.I'm not suggesting that Apple isn't a relatively secure handset (particularly when regular users are concerned), what I am disputing is your claim that Android/Google is somehow more "evil" and spies on their users without consent, when that is simply incorrect. You might also like to do some research into Google Workspace and how those services differ from the free Google accounts.What is far more concerning are third-party applications and custom firmware that certain manufacturers include with their handsets, rather than just the stock Android/Google services.As for the information that Google openly collects, you do realise Apple does the same?

author: Fixed_Until_Broken
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2021, 11:18:00 pm
content: Quote from: eti on October 12, 2021, 10:40:00 pmI am just using your own words. What's not productive is the fact that you completely ignoring the very valid points being made. You title your post with a baseless claim that the phone is nonsense with nothing to back it up. You have provided no argument whatsoever. you have mentioned iPhone more than you have mentioned fair phone. There is no discussion to be had because there is nothing in the world anyone is going to say that changes your mind. Prove me wrong, What could I say to change your mind that Fair phone isn't "Ah, here we go again with the “eco” phone nonsense. ". You made it clear from the very title you chose your mind is made up. So I am here to drag you not to change your mind. You are wrong it's plain and simple. I don't need to change your mind.Your title should be "I only want an iPhone and You Can't Change My Mind"PS why do you want me to not be polite?

author: HobGoblyn
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 12, 2021, 11:20:07 pm
content: Quote from: rsjsouza on October 12, 2021, 06:04:11 pmWatched a Louis Rossmann vid about them today, while they make it easy enough to swap hardware, they will not provide schematics, hence they haven’t really made it easy to repair at component level.https://youtu.be/fhLtyrRwGcg

author: eti
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2021, 11:25:51 pm
content: Quote from: Fixed_Until_Broken on October 12, 2021, 11:18:00 pmI have better things to do that "convince" you. Do your own drawing of conclusions - your choice what you believe. Have a nice day."Can you not be polite?" is asking if you're able to be polite - English grammar, I can see it is a little confusing, having read it back.

author: Fixed_Until_Broken
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2021, 11:56:28 pm
content: Quote from: eti on October 12, 2021, 11:25:51 pmIf you are not here to convince someone of your baseless claim that the phone is nonsense then what was the point of your "discussion"? You have made it clear you aren't here to have your mind changed. So why did you even start this topic at all?You currently haven't even attempted to answer any direct questions asked, not even one as simple as "What could I say to change your mind that Fair phone isn't "Ah, here we go again with the “eco” phone nonsense. "".The facts are:-The phone has respectable specs at a reasonable cost.-It offers a longer manufacture warranty than most-It is respectable for a company to use Fairtrade Gold-It is respectable for them to go through the effort of using 100% Recycled plastic-The bootloader not being locked means you actually own your deviceThe only spot I see worth taking away marks is the fact that they aren't providing schematics for component-level repair. It's a step in the right direction that they at least made an easy to open device. It's just not there without schematics to call it " Right To Repair Friendly" but it's about as close as you are getting at the moment... without building your own pi phone lol.It is for sure not an ego massaging marketing con job as you suggest. To be clear I do not own one and I recently got a new phone so I won't be upgrading soon. I just find what they did to be respectable and a step towards a sustainable future. It's not the answer but it's closer than Iphone or Samsung have been making.

author: eti
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2021, 12:05:58 am
content: Quote from: Fixed_Until_Broken on October 12, 2021, 11:56:28 pmI posted an article, with my opinion of the aims of the device - I am under no "obligation" to spend hours on fruitless, tedious debates. I pasted a link - you and others discuss away, I post things you might find interesting. Don't be a thundering bore.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2021, 01:02:29 am
content: Quote from: HobGoblyn on October 12, 2021, 11:20:07 pmYes, despite this, it is quite an excellent phone moving on the right direction. Glued and curved screens (a great deal of the repairs) and glued or enclosed batteries are huge steps backwards that are addressed by this phone.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2021, 01:41:15 am
content: The curved screen trend I really don't get. We spent decades trying to make screens as flat as possible, then when we finally have completely flat screens with nice square corners we start making them curved again because we can? I hate the notches and holes in screens too, I don't really grasp the point of the "all screen" phone. A screen that is all there, uninterrupted, and not compromised by a chunk cut out of it is far superior than a screen that spans edge to edge. Bezels have a purpose, it gives you something to hold onto and frames the display. When people hang a painting or photo on the wall they usually put it in a frame for the same reason.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 13, 2021, 04:57:02 am
content: Quote from: eti on October 12, 2021, 11:25:51 pmYour thread seems to be all about convincing! All companies collect data, they all do it for one reason: to make more money or to inform their next products. Get used to it. What counts as spying seems to be a matter of personal definition these days.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 13, 2021, 05:06:08 am
content: Quote from: Simon on October 13, 2021, 04:57:02 amPrecisely. I'll also add that this kind of data collection happenswith the user's consent. If you don't want certain data to be collected about you, either modify the preferences or use an alternative service. If something is free, companies aren't doing it out the of the goodness of their heart, they are doing it as a service to which to expect some kind of return.This is why I pay the $9/month for Google Workspace, so that my emails aren't scanned for content and I have granular control over individual Google services.

author: eti
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2021, 05:20:33 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on October 13, 2021, 05:06:08 amYou’re possibly naive if you believe Google when they say that. They’re not known for honesty or morality.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 13, 2021, 05:21:52 am
content: Yea, I use youtube premium, I don't understand why people, well I do understand, the majority are idiots. We got spoiled with free stuff too stupid to think "who pays for this?" and just expect it all for free. I am a fan of paying for what I use and and not being treated like shit or having my time wasted.

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2021, 05:26:27 am
content: Quote from: eti on October 13, 2021, 05:20:33 amI just spilled coffee on the desk.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 13, 2021, 05:30:17 am
content: Quote from: eti on October 13, 2021, 05:20:33 amIt's called the law (in many countries) and there are strict rules on what companies can and can't do with your private information. But as I said, you as the user consent to it. If you don't know what you've agreed to, well, that's purely on you.But it's not just about "believing Google" it's based on my own, expert experience. What were your qualifications again? Watching Youtube?

author: eti
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2021, 06:02:29 am
content: Okay.

author: HobGoblyn
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 13, 2021, 08:02:18 am
content: Quote from: Simon on October 13, 2021, 05:21:52 amI pay for YouTube too. Could never go back to the free version.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 13, 2021, 08:08:08 am
content: Quote from: HobGoblyn on October 13, 2021, 08:02:18 amI admittedly don't pay for Youtube but most of my viewing is done on the computer, so it's easy to block all ads. I'm slowly moving more of my viewing over to Odysee.

author: thinkfat
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 13, 2021, 11:48:36 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on October 12, 2021, 08:25:37 amAand you can stop right there. A "normal person" is not educated and experienced in "tech".As a matter of fact, nobody on this forum can be regarded a "normal person". Moderators doubly so.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 13, 2021, 11:50:50 am
content: Quote from: thinkfat on October 13, 2021, 11:48:36 amYou are right, I am not normal, but not because I am a moderator

author: thinkfat
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 13, 2021, 11:54:47 am
content: Quote from: Simon on October 13, 2021, 11:50:50 amYes, because it's the other way 'round

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2021, 12:25:40 pm
content: Quote from: Just_another_Dave on October 12, 2021, 01:56:44 pmYes, it's in Apple's interest to keep you as a customer.Quote from: Just_another_Dave on October 12, 2021, 01:56:44 pmHuh? What does the brand of your old phone matter? Apple makes its money on app sales at the time of purchase, that's it. Whether it's on a new or old iPhone is irrelevant.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2021, 12:30:37 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on October 12, 2021, 05:21:33 pmI'm in total agreement with you about the look.I think it was iOS 10 or 11 that really slowed down the iPhone 6 I had at the time. But iOS 12 brought all the speed right back. I haven't found any subsequent iOS upgrade to cause a noticeable loss in speed. What I have noticed is a bit more memory use, sometimes leading to longer time switching between apps if it's had to close it in the background.What I have noticed over time, just as Ranayna said, is websites becoming pigs that are unable to perform adequately on older devices, whether mobile or otherwise. Facebook's current website is basically unusable on my 2012 MacBook. But website bloat is a topic of its own… :::snarl:::

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2021, 12:35:09 pm
content: Quote from: NiHaoMike on October 12, 2021, 10:08:11 pmYou can disable iCloud, all the telemetry/reporting, and all the other Apple services (other than iOS updates and initial device activation). In theory, you could run it entirely using other cloud services like Google, or your own IMAP, calendar, etc. But it definitely wouldn't be as nicely integrated, and you'd be limited to the preinstalled apps only, for lack of an alternative app store.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2021, 12:38:14 pm
content: Quote from: Halcyon on October 12, 2021, 11:10:20 pmApple is also transparent about what it collects. The difference is that the vast majority of the data collected on iOS is used on-device only, and doesn't get sent anywhere. In contrast, Google collects data for the purpose of tracking you across the internet, and selling data to third parties. The amount isn't what matters as much as what's done with it.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2021, 12:44:22 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on October 13, 2021, 01:41:15 amRIGHT???!? I am puzzled by the curved screen lunacy. I guess flat screens made it too easy to avoid reflections, so let's use curved screens that always reflect something?!? (And take more room.)(Round corners, however, I kinda like.)Quote from: james_s on October 13, 2021, 01:41:15 amWell, I think picture frames primarily served the purposes of covering the ugly edges of painted canvases, and of providing a strong attachment point. The proliferation of borderless photo frames (and posters, which are typically put up frameless) kinda undermines the argument of them needing a visual frame.Bezels, on the other hand, serve a very real purpose in handheld devices, totally in agreement with you.

author: Just_another_Dave
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2021, 01:06:32 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on October 13, 2021, 12:25:40 pmUnless you buy apps from your manufacturer’s App Store (samsung, huawei, Xiaomi, etc), they don’t get a cut of the sales made by any of their phones (as far as I know). That reduces the interest on updating their devices, as just selling new ones generates revenue for them (Google is the one that receives a fee when android apps are bought)

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2021, 01:57:22 pm
content: Quote from: Just_another_Dave on October 13, 2021, 01:06:32 pmWell yeah, I get that. But they don't get app revenueperiod, regardless of whether you buy the app on your old phoneor the new one. Your wording just threw me off, making me think you meant something else.

author: Just_another_Dave
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2021, 02:04:18 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on October 13, 2021, 01:57:22 pmI realized that my wording could lead to confusions when I saw your message. By old phones I meant already sold ones

author: JPortici
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2021, 02:42:53 pm
content: Quote from: Just_another_Dave on October 12, 2021, 01:56:44 pmAnd then there's thelastmajor update for the old device that renders it uselessly slow. The only alternative is to buy a new device

author: Just_another_Dave
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2021, 02:56:55 pm
content: Quote from: JPortici on October 13, 2021, 02:42:53 pmYep, it should be always possible to install previous versions

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2021, 03:14:54 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on October 13, 2021, 12:44:22 pmI have a Samsung S9 and its curved screen is useless to me. If anything, it increases the chances of glass breakage by 1000% as the phone shells available leave its sides completely unprotected.As for bezels, indeed they are useful - if anything, the grease of your fingers (when pressing the side buttons) do not get in the viewable area of the display.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2021, 06:22:46 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on October 13, 2021, 12:44:22 pmI certainly think a picture looks better in a frame, if only a minimal one. I'm really not a fan of the borderless fad, it has proliferated UI design too, objects just floating in a sea of whitespace with separating them. It's a fad like any other, and I've always hated fads.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 13, 2021, 06:59:42 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on October 13, 2021, 12:38:14 pmWhilst true, I'll say this again, it happenswith the consent of the user. If you don't want your phone listening to your words and displaying relevant ads, simply disable it. I've also mentioned this before but there is a huge difference between pairing your phone with a free Google account, or a corporate/Google Workspace account. Both very different beasts. Although they look the same on the surface, they are two completely different and seperate products from Google and behave differently.Google is actually one of the few providers (as well as Microsoft and Amazon) whose services are approved by the Australian government to handle protected and sensitive information (to a certain level, there are a few caveats however, such as the data must reside on Australian servers etc...)

author: eti
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2021, 07:21:07 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on October 13, 2021, 12:38:14 pmYou worded it succinctly, this was precisely what I'd meant, but failed to convey. I trust Apple - they have a vibe of decency about them, the likes of which Google have never demonstrated (which is highly ironic, since they used to have a brand catchphrase "don't be evil" - LOL - more than likely a pre-emptive, clumsy attempt to convince people of their supposed lack of any current or future wrongdoing, in the same, naive way a child who has stolen a biscuit, protests "IT WASN'T ME! I DIDN'T STEAL THE BISCUIT MUMMY!" before she's even asked "who has stolen a biscuit?".) Google's interest is in selling DATA, Apple's interest is in selling DEVICES, and the privacy of those to whom it sells them.Additonally - what with this "FairPhone" (cheesy name or what) being so "open" and (apparently...) easy to repair and upgrade, what's to stop a third party vendor of cloned hardware components that look and feel the same but contain surveillance capabilities, from selling them to repair shops/whomever? There's a system in iOS called the "chain of trust" which is well documented, the likes of which are above my pay grade, but in essence, every part of the boot and authentication process are signed and hashed (again, I may be using terminology incorrectly - cryptography is NOT my field) - suffice it to say. it's VERY secure, and is why Apple frown upon third party repair (and rightly so FOR THIS REASON - they like to work with a known quantity, and once Sahid on a shady Dubai market has fiddled with it, who knows what it is doing!)People moan and whine about iOS devices not being repairable, but they seem to wilfully (or in ignorance) overlook one VERY simple fact - the third-party replacement parts you want to install, might have be of dubious origin, and perform dubious acts - an uninformed, not particularly highly skilled man on a Saturday market, changing your phone microphone or screen, may be, in all ignorance and probably all innocence, compromising the device which - beforehand - was secure.People LOVE to say "But it's my phone and I am willing to take the risk" - YES. BUT ONE DAY YOU WILL PROBABLY SELL THAT PHONE OR GIVE IT AWAY - when it goes wrong for the next person, or if their phone calls/data/whatever are LEAKED OUT, guess who they will blame? Apple, a VERY high profile target who people LOVE to whinge about, and it is ammunition for precisely that.I see the frustration with not being able to easily repair certain devices, but I see why Apple do it

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2021, 08:40:57 pm
content: Quote from: HobGoblyn on October 12, 2021, 11:20:07 pmHaving purchasable modules that can be swapped out and tested quickly does make it much easier to repair at a component level.Still not ideal as listing a BOM and schematic though, yeah.

author: Fixed_Until_Broken
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2021, 11:58:21 pm
content: Quote from: eti on October 13, 2021, 07:21:07 pmYes, People moan and complain about apple because they make repair harder in the name of "security". An example of such would be locking you out of the bootloader. But this amazing "security" has been defeated by tools like checkm8. They also serialize parts in the name of "security" but this is the same type of "security" that the TSA offers. It's known as a security circus or security theatre. basically, no real security is added by serializing the screen, battery, or camera. If I can make a device that can spy on you I can make a device that can spoof a serial number. serializing parts is not securing anything at all. BTW don't believe me there are tools on the market for cloning apple serial numbers right now.You are yet to make a valid point. keep reaching.Please donotbash 3rd party repair when you clearly do not understand one bit of what you are talking about. You are slandering the hard work of many businesses with more baseless claims. It is outright egregious to claim 3rd party repair will compromise your device."Any fool can speculate, most of them do"... The quote is actually "Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain-and most fools do" by the way

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2021, 09:42:46 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on October 13, 2021, 06:59:42 pmWell, “consent” obtained somewhere in the bowels of a EULA, and which is not easy to disable if you change your mind. And I don’t think it’s actually entirely possible to stop Google from stalking you across the internet.Apple asks for explicit consent up-front during the setup process. They’re much more transparent about it. (And again, separate consent to send data off-device to do things for you, or to send bug reports to developers, and anonymized usage patterns to Apple. None of it is used for advertising or sold to third parties.)Quote from: Halcyon on October 13, 2021, 06:59:42 pmThat may be so for their paid hosted services, but you can’t pay your way out of Google tracking you around the internet to show ads.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2021, 09:51:38 am
content: Quote from: Fixed_Until_Broken on October 13, 2021, 11:58:21 pmI don’t think the hardware and firmware security is evendistantlypointless, as you suggest it is. No, it’s not perfect. But it has served to keep iOS FAR more secure as a platform for a typical user. It’s impossible to know exactly how much it’s prevented, but I don’t think it’s farfetched to believe that without it, there would be a lot more malware, ransomware, etc. Not to mention that I think it’s a good thing that law enforcement doesn’t have ready access. Yeah, it eventually gets broken, but rarely right away.And some things, like biometric security, really, really need to be done on secure hardware. Doing those on unsecured hardware is reckless.What I do believe, however, is that Apple should become more open about providing original parts to whoever needs them.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2021, 11:32:24 am
content: https://9to5mac.com/2021/01/28/apple-google-default-search-privacy/Just trust Apple...

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 14, 2021, 11:52:58 am
content: Quote from: tooki on October 14, 2021, 09:42:46 amGoogle != "the internet"It's your choice when you use their search engine, any of their services or sign into an android phone with a google account.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2021, 12:52:12 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on October 14, 2021, 11:52:58 amNo shit, Sherlock…Quote from: Simon on October 14, 2021, 11:52:58 amBut it’snotyour choice whetherotherwebsites and apps embed Google services, like Google analytics and advertising, whichwilltrack you around even if you aren’t signed in to Google. The tracking networks are ruthless, piecing things together from whatever they find.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2021, 12:53:24 pm
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on October 14, 2021, 11:32:24 amI’ll trust Apple way sooner than I’ll trust Google!

author: LaserSteve
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2021, 01:20:59 pm
content: I just want my AMPS bagphone back. 3 watts of transmit power and a battery that makes it past one day. I'm not too fond of integrated batteries.Instantaneous communication now rules my workday. Come fix this... I need that.. read reams of really senseless emails... For What...Students at work walk around campus with their heads in phones. If your driving a car you really have to watch out for them.Arghh!!Steve

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2021, 01:51:17 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on October 14, 2021, 12:53:24 pmLike a good Apple fanboy you didn't even read it did you?Apple default browser default search engine IS Google. Google apparently gets 9 billion of USD worth of Apple users private data, otherwise they wouldn't pay that much.And Apple is happily selling it...So yeah, they are all shit. At least Google is not "lie through the teeth" bigot like Apple.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2021, 02:38:10 pm
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on October 14, 2021, 01:51:17 pmFirst of all, watch your tone, dude.I did read it. But I alsounderstoodit. Google has been the default search engine since forever.But that doesn’t mean Apple is selling user data it collected. Yes, leaving Google as the default means Google can collect more data, and clearly they think that’s worth the $9B. But that’s a very, very different thing from saying that Apple is selling data to Google, like Siri searches or map information.You do realize that the entire reason Apple spent ungodly amounts of money developing Apple Maps is because to get Google maps turn-by-turn directions, they would have had to share user information with Google that Apple simply refused to do? If Apple didn’t care about privacy, they would have gone the easy route and just given Google the data.Instead they built an entire mapping infrastructure.If that’s not a commitment to user privacy, I don’t know what is.There’s zero substance to your claim of Apple lying. (And calling them a “bigot” makes no sense whatsoever. A bigot is someone who holds prejudices, like a racist or sexist. You probably meant “hypocrite”, though there’s equally little evidence for that, either.)Nobody is saying Apple is perfect. But I damned well trust Apple with privacy over Google. It takes raging, irrational hatred for Apple, or blind adulation for Google, to not understandthat. Just about the only internet company I’d trust even less with privacy is Facebook, but I suppose that went without saying.)

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2021, 03:08:39 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on October 14, 2021, 02:38:10 pmThank you for the English lesson. Yes I meant hypocrite. English is not my native language, sorry.And here is one word for you : naïve.I don't know you. All I have to go by are your words, and you speak Apple cool aid... If that offended you I'm sorry.And, yes, they were caught lying many, many times..Idon't trust anyof them. Apple, Google, Facebook whatever. They are all money making corporations that have no morale at all. For them moral behavior is weakness that stands in a way of profit.And Apple is hypocritical, because they say "they care for privacy". They don't. They care for public image (in service of making profit) and if saying "they care for privacy" is creating them profit they are going to say it. And even be prepared to do something about it that is visible and looks good for their image.They are receiving 9 billion USD from Google for something. And despite you waxing poetic about semantic differences between "letting Google get data that Apple collects" and "letting Google collecting data from Apple devices like they were surfing internet on Android" to the user it is the same. They get both Google and Apple spying on them. And Facebook if they use that one.It's classic example of "follow the money".

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2021, 03:33:26 pm
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on October 14, 2021, 03:08:39 pmIt isnotnaïveté (nor blind fandom) to question and reject the unfounded hysteria that’s often created around Apple. Ahugeportion of the accusations lobbed against Apple are plain and simply untrue (and fail even basic scrutiny).It is absolutely not “waxing poetic” to have a nuanced, deep understanding of the huge difference between allowing Google to collect data (on the search engine that everyone would select even if it weren’t the default) vs actively sharing data with Google!! The data Applecouldcollect and share, but doesn’t, goesfarbeyond what Google can collect through web searches alone. Imagine if Apple shared your health data from your paired watch, or your location in real time, your contacts, or the contents of your text messages, or recordings of your phone calls, or the log of what words you type most often. (Apple doesn’t share any of those.) There would rightfully be outrage if they did that, because they’re in no way equivalent. What can be collected via web searches is bad enough. But these others would be just as bad, if not much worse, and Apple doesn’t share those.As for motivations: on the one hand, who cares if money is the motivation for doing the right thing? If privacy is a way that Apple wants to set itself apart, is the end result not the same? Apple has been been slowly disentangling itself from Google, and has been working actively to undermine user data collection, both for others and itself. (For example, Siri requests are now processed on-device, not on Apple’s servers.) And they can’t lie about it, because they’re under constant scrutiny by outsiders keen to catch Apple in… anything. (Your lie about Apple being caught in lie after lie is proof of that.)Now, I have good reason to believe that Appledoesactually care about users, but as I said, even if “caring” is just a business decision, it only works if you back it up with the goods. And in that, they deliver.(Except in the choice of Mac models, which hasn’t made me happy in a long time, and in the inexplicable move to unusable flat interfaces. Apple has made some real “wtf were they thinking?!?” decisions with those…)

author: Caliaxy
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2021, 03:35:10 pm
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on October 14, 2021, 01:51:17 pmBeyond being grossly exaggerated (Apple doesn't sell user's data per se, at least not the way inferred here, as already pointed out by others) this is not actually an issue.Safari's default search engine out of the box is, indeed, Google. But it takes exactly three taps on the screen to change that for good (the fourth tap is choosing you preferred search engine).

author: rdl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2021, 04:19:22 pm
content: These days you can't really use a wireless phone or the internet without being tracked/spied on to some degree. I can't remember the last time I visited a web site of any significance that didn't have google embedded in some way.

author: Fixed_Until_Broken
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2021, 09:14:00 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on October 14, 2021, 09:51:38 amI did not say hardware and firmware security is pointless I said serialization is pointless because it's easily spoofed. It is a security circus. If you're just going to say send a message across a normal protocol like SPI and just respond back an unencrypted string of numbers that is not security. It's a joke to defeat that but it's ruining 3rd party repair. Plenty of word-class security firms and government agencies agree that giving 3rd party repair access to parts and tools does not compromise security.The argument against what I just said is also the argument against the serialization of parts. " But you would have to physical access to the device to sniff the datalines..." Yeah, and you need physical access to the device to swap the part out with this hypothetical spy chip. If you want to end-to-end encrypt the communication from the battery to the CPU then I will believe you it's about security but just adding a serial number is a joke. This fear-mongering is insane.let's take a hypothetical that I am making something malicious. I want to make a battery that will catch on fire every time the user leaves it plugged overnight. So a remove the BMS in this battery and make my own bms, program it with the phone serial number that I got from the old BMS and now with the phone asks for the charge state just 98%-0% and then when they charge it to let it keep charging past 100% until it starts a fire.... your serial number did nothing to stop this. obviously glossed over a lot to make this happen but serialization won't stop someone who actually wants to attack you.Edit: encrypting the thumbprint scanner and serializing the screen, battery and microphone are two completely different things. I am talking about unencrypted serial numbers. do not try to put words in my mouth about biometric security.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 15, 2021, 03:30:22 am
content: Quote from: tooki on October 14, 2021, 09:42:46 amYou absolutely can.If you think Apple is somewhat more "trustworthy" than Google, you're sadly mistaken.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2021, 06:02:30 am
content: I trust Apple more than Google simply because Apple is not an advertising company and does not depend on harvesting marketable data. That is not to say I particularly trust either one though, or any other company. The primary reason I chose an iPhone is it was the only decent small smartphone I could find. Also I like imessage better than SMS because I can text my friends in Canada for free.

author: daqq
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2021, 06:51:53 am
content: Quote from: eti on October 13, 2021, 07:21:07 pm

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2021, 10:11:40 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on October 15, 2021, 03:30:22 amSorry, but you’re dead wrong.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2021, 12:18:46 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on October 15, 2021, 06:02:30 amGoing for Android are the de-googled phones.https://centipedenation.com/second-column/the-privacy-guy-rob-braxman-on-using-de-googled-phones/Not ideal, but not bad either.

author: thinkfat
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 15, 2021, 04:27:01 pm
content: Quote from: rsjsouza on October 15, 2021, 12:18:46 pmYou'd have to be really hardcore about privacy if you accepted the near-complete loss of functionality that de-googling an Android phone brings along.

author: thinkfat
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 15, 2021, 04:30:27 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on October 15, 2021, 10:11:40 amHow can a multi-billion operation like Apple be anything but entirely without morals?

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2021, 05:08:55 pm
content: Quote from: thinkfat on October 15, 2021, 04:30:27 pmWell, it depends on the company leadership. User-centricity is demonstrated by things like the CEO telling a major investor to pound sand when they complained about the expense of putting in accessibility features that go well beyond what the law requires, or the fact that their store employees are trained to give the customer therightproduct for them, not the most expensive product (they don’t work on commission, and the metrics don’t care whether they sell a customer a $999 MacBook or a $9999 Mac Pro: each counts simply as 1 Mac sale).Additionally, it’s no secret that Apple’s business model revolves around selling hardware and services. What they aren’t reliant onat allis ad revenue, so they don’t need the user data. Contrast this with Google, whose entire business is built upon a foundation of ad revenue (80%), and that in turn relies on user data in order to target the ads.In a nutshell: Apple’s product is goods and services, and its customers are end users. Google’s customers are advertisers, and its product isyou. This is why Apple cares about end users, and Google doesn’t.But as I stated in an earlier reply: even if Apple’s motivation to protect user privacy is simply a way to set itself apart from the competition in order to sell more product, so what? The end result is nonetheless a company acting to protect its users. The motivation doesn’t change the effectiveness of the end result.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 15, 2021, 09:25:40 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on October 15, 2021, 10:11:40 amGee, all this time I must have been imagining it then.

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2021, 09:30:02 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on October 15, 2021, 05:08:55 pmSure, but Halcyon is saying that paying google makes instead your cash the product and not you. It's just very hard for some of us to believe they will honour that part of the deal. Even if they do, what isn't explained is to what extent.When you email and converse with another person with a ordinary Gmail acct, Google would read the emails. But when does the payment for privacy take effect? Email aside, with all the tracking, how do they separate your random browsing from the enclave of privacy you've paid for?

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2021, 10:09:21 pm
content: Quote from: Halcyon on October 15, 2021, 09:25:40 pmProbably. Or more likely, believing what people say without actually verifying the facts of the situation.Much of the reporting about Apple is very inaccurate. (A perfect example: all the recent articles about how old Apple devices will start having trouble connecting to some websites due to some root certificate expiring. Yes, it’s technically true. But the lie-by-omission is that countless non-Apple devices of the same era are equally affected. Any device that hasn’t gotten an update in many years will have the issue. But badmouthing Apple gets more clicks…)

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2021, 10:16:07 pm
content: Quote from: Ed.Kloonk on October 15, 2021, 09:30:02 pmBut you can’t do that. You can pay for extra Google services, but outside of YouTube, you cannot pay to turn off ads and tracking. The Google Contributor program (which let you pay per-site to disable Google ads) was discontinued years ago, revived briefly, and then left to wither again. But there’s never been a program where you could, say, pay $20 a month and disableallGoogle ads and tracking acrossallwebsites.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 15, 2021, 10:32:06 pm
content: Quote from: Ed.Kloonk on October 15, 2021, 09:30:02 pmIn a nutshell, yes. But don't just take my word for it, I encourage everyone to do some independent research. I know a Google engineer personally and he explained some of the inner workings to me. Although the familiar GUI is almost the same between free Google and Google Workspace, how it works under the hood is entirely different. Could you imagine if a company or government entity was using Google's services for confidential or sensitive things only to have it scanned or processed by something external? Google would lose all credibility in that market. It might be of interest to some, but Google actually passed the Australian Signals Directorate IRAP compliance for protected information and was listed listed on the Australian Cyber Security Centre's Certified Cloud Services List for government use (until the CCSL was discontinued last year).Want to take a guess which company didn't make the list?Quote from: tooki on October 15, 2021, 10:16:07 pmYes, you absolutely can. I do that right now even on my personal domain (and no, I don't use Google Workspace for Youtube at all). The granularity of the settings in Google Workspace is pretty awesome, but even with free Google, you have control over just about everything. There are some things that you can't disable which come with the product. I do have to ask though Tooki, are you a Google user?

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2021, 11:26:58 pm
content: Quote from: Halcyon on October 15, 2021, 10:32:06 pmI think we are talking about completely different things.You’re talking about thingswithina paid Google service. Of course it’s not going to show ads there. But having a Google workspace account isn’t going to stop Google adselsewhere.Yes, I use some Google services, where no alternative exists (or is massively inferior). Nothing paid.Yes, Google lets you set many things granularly. But “don’t show me ads” and “don’t track me across the web” aren’t among them.How one can think Apple is worse when it comes to data collection simply boggles the mind. (I’m not saying that Google is the worst, they’re absolutely not.)

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2021, 12:43:27 am
content: Quote from: thinkfat on October 15, 2021, 04:27:01 pmWhat do you lose other than the Google apps and services you never wanted to use to begin with? Then there's microG as a replacement.https://microg.org/Quote from: tooki on October 15, 2021, 10:16:07 pmIt was trying to compete with free adblockers, an obvious losing battle.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 16, 2021, 02:38:38 am
content: Quote from: tooki on October 15, 2021, 11:26:58 pmEven with free Google services, it's not hard to either disable tracking(in some circumstances), block them, manipulate them or essentially anonymise them. It just depends on you, the user and what details you provide and how things are configured on your end. For example, logging into non-Google websites using your Facebook/Google/Apple/Whatever account is a terrible idea. If you have any care about privacy at all, you would never do this.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2021, 01:42:59 pm
content: Quote from: Halcyon on October 16, 2021, 02:38:38 amI still fail to see how any of that makes Apple less trustworthy with regards to privacy.Nor does it support your claim that one can pay Google to get rid of ads and tracking.And Apple’s login system is designed for privacy, heck, it includes an anonymizer option. Read up on it before you bash it.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 19, 2021, 10:03:03 am
content: Quote from: tooki on October 16, 2021, 01:42:59 pmIt doesn't. I also never claimed it did. I was just refuting some of your claims as an actual security researcher and someone who has worked in the field for years.All I am saying is they all use the same tactics and play all the same tricks. Being an Apple user doesn't make you immune to any of it, just like you aren't immune to malware or phishing scams etc.... If you want to be in 100% complete control of all of your data and the infrastructure it sits on, then pay someone the big bucks or host your own services and hope that you don't accidentally misconfigure something.As for everything else I've mentioned, it's all easily verifiable in the public domain. Feel free to read up on it, or better yet, test it out for yourself.

author: thinkfat
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 19, 2021, 01:02:23 pm
content: Quote from: NiHaoMike on October 16, 2021, 12:43:27 amYou lose the "Play Store" and with it you lose all other apps, too. Apps are the single, most important feature that "make" a smartphone. Selling Android phones without Google stuff has been tried and everyone failed, and each time the reason was "no apps available".If you want to keep using all the popular apps, you need to download them from sketchy servers, trading privacy for security (and you cannot have privacy without security).As for Google services, they are valuable to many. Ad revenue is an important driver for content creators. YouTube is the best example. MicroG does not give you that.So, you effectively get an expensive phone that does nothing a Nokia 6310 could not also do.

author: Just_another_Dave
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2021, 02:27:08 pm
content: Quote from: thinkfat on October 19, 2021, 01:02:23 pmIn order to allow the average user to use an android phone without android services, at least developers would need to provide installers for their apps that could be downloaded from their websites (as it happens with software developed for windows)

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2021, 03:10:46 pm
content: Quote from: Halcyon on October 19, 2021, 10:03:03 amYou strongly suggested itmultipletimes.Quote from: Halcyon on October 19, 2021, 10:03:03 amI don't think you did, because I don't think we are talking about the same thing at all. See below.Quote from: Halcyon on October 19, 2021, 10:03:03 amBut that's clearlynotthe case.Quote from: Halcyon on October 19, 2021, 10:03:03 amRight, but the services are just a minor part of it. Apple actively fights against user tracking online. Google actively participates in said tracking. I don't think you've grasped that I am not particularly concerned with what happens within a Google service (like gmail) nor within an Apple service (like iCloud), but what happensoutsideof them.Quote from: Halcyon on October 19, 2021, 10:03:03 amYes, but it's not relevant to what I've been talking about.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 19, 2021, 07:01:30 pm
content: Look, tooki, you do you. I really don't care if I change your views on things or manage to educate you even a little bit. I'm just discussing what I know. I refuse to enter into a pissing contest with anyone.If you like your fruity phone, then you keep using it. No one, including myself is going to try to stop you.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2021, 07:40:30 pm
content: Quote from: Halcyon on October 19, 2021, 07:01:30 pmYou couldn't educate me because you haven't told me anything I didn't already know!Your argument began with claiming that Apple collects a lot more data. Even if we accept that as true (which is uncertain but unknowable), it's data used for on-device learning. It's not used for advertising, it doesn't get sent to Apple or anyone else. As a user, you can opt-in to send crash reports and certain usage data to Apple and/or third-party app developers, but even that is anonymized.You said it'd be a treasure trove if it fell into the wrong hands. Yes, absolutely! But to get to that database as a baddie, you have to defeat numerous layers of security. Key word here: security.Privacy, which is what was being discussed prior to your comment, is not the same assecurity.Google collects data from your online activities and uses it to sell ads. They actively work to de-anonymize you on the internet.Yet you keep arguing about how personal data stored in a paid Google service is, in fact, secure, while refusing to address the privacy issues being discussed.This is why I keep saying: it's apples and oranges.So you don't get to condescendingly suggest I'm wrong and in need of education, when you keep discussing an entirely different topic.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2021, 10:29:18 pm
content: Quote from: thinkfat on October 19, 2021, 01:02:23 pmLook up "APK downloader" on Github and you'll find quite a few of those. Then there's F-Droid, the app store that specializes in open source apps.QuoteThere are better Youtube viewer apps like Youtube Vanced and Newpipe. Those who do want the ads to support creators but don't want the ads disrupting their enjoyment of the content (or getting creeped out by ads that track too closely) can leave the video playing with ads on a cheap or old device while watching without ads on their "good" device.

author: eti
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2021, 02:02:07 am
content: Quote from: NiHaoMike on October 19, 2021, 10:29:18 pmI have used “Smart Tube Next” and its predecessor, for over two years - the hours or cumulative days of my life it has saved me, with respect to cutting out insufferably arrogant, pushy advertisers, are countless.Back to topic - Android is still utter garbage - how so? Well the fact that they give it away to the likes of Amazon to create their appallingly sluggish “Fire OS”, speaks volumes. It’s free, but so what, when it’s so pathetic.The myriad promises and “projects” Google have crowed about over the years, apparently to show “THIS time it’s gonna be SOOOO much better, because <X, Y and Z>“ only to have them never take off as was crowed, and then quietly vanish into the distance, is laughable.Watching my only two year old Xiaomi Redmi Note 7, attempt to open an app, is like watching a 35 stone, 85 year old man with arthritis, heaving himself out of his armchair and attempting to jog down the street. It’s embarrassing, and shows that empty promised and bare hardware specs mean zero.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 20, 2021, 09:07:32 am
content: Quote from: eti on October 20, 2021, 02:02:07 amThat's like saying Linux is utter garbage because someone made a crap distro. Android itself is leaps and bounds ahead of Apple iOS in terms of customisability and features. It generally always has been. When a manufacturer butchers a product, whether it be Android, Linux, embedded versions of Windows etc... etc... doesn't mean that everything is garbage. Plain Android (or as close to plain as you can get) is awesome. The crap that comes out of China like ColorOS is shit and I wouldn't trust it with security, privacy or stability as far as I could throw the device.You also can't blame the OS or the developer for crap hardware. This is one thing that Apple have (usually) managed to get right. The hardware (with some exceptions) is generally pretty decent quality and if you want MacOS or iOS, you have to buy it with an Apple device. You don't get a choice. This is why Apple is an excellent (albeit expensive) choice for users who don't care about how their computer works, they just want it to browse the internet, watch Youtube or Netflix and check their email.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2021, 12:03:06 pm
content: Quote from: Halcyon on October 20, 2021, 09:07:32 am…or make Hollywood movies and TV shows, design the websites you browse and the printed matter you read, write the apps people use, design the house you live in, run multi-billion dollar businesses, perform scientific research, use Microsoft Office, or any multitude of things beyond basic media consumption.The overwhelming majority of people do not care about how their computers work. As engineering nerds, we are an exception, not the rule. (And IMHO, it’s our job to engineer consumer products such that ordinary consumers don’tneedto understand how they work.)What Macs are is systems for people who want their systems to get out of the way and just work. Are they perfect? No. But they’re better in that regard than the competition. (Though I will happily admit that Windows is atonbetter now than it used to be. Since I have to use both platforms, I want both to work well!) They’re definitely not the system for someone who wants to tweak everything under the hood.As for hardware, I’m very torn: I’m still using a 2008 Mac Pro, because its internal expansion is hugely useful. I am in desperate need of a new machine, but no desktop Apple has made in the past 8 years or so truly meets my needs. :/ I’ve even considered building a hackintosh… :/

author: Sal Ammoniac
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2021, 03:35:33 pm
content: Quote from: Halcyon on October 20, 2021, 09:07:32 amSo what? Do you think normal people (and you're not "normal" in the sense that you are far more technical than the vast majority of people) care about things like this? Well, they don't--they just want something that works. Too much customizability is actually a bad thing for mass market products as it leads to confusion and additional support issues. And what features are you referring to? Sure, on an Android phone you can install command shell apps and things like that, but those things are as alien to the average consumer as quantum mechanics.QuoteCorrect, but the average consumer doesn't know the difference--to them it's all one integrated unit.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 20, 2021, 06:47:03 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on October 20, 2021, 12:03:06 pmYou basically described computers generally. These things are not exclusive to Apple. Nor did I suggest that basic media consumption was all that Apple was good for. I was just highlighting one target audience.As for Windows being better than it was, I think this just highlights that we haveverydifferent opinions and experiences when it comes to computing. Windows 8/10 is what forced me to learn Linux years ago as to switch over to Apple MacOS/hardware just isn't suitable for me, it's not flexible enough and for the most part, over-priced for what it is. I've been using Windows 10 for years and I have to say, in my opinion, it is the biggest steaming pile of shit Microsoft has ever released. It's terrible, even more so than Windows Millennium and Vista ever were. Outside of a test VM, I will never ever install Windows 10 on a computer in my home and this is saying a lot coming from someone who grew up with and administered Windows networks all his life.

author: eti
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2021, 07:41:04 pm
content: Summation:The huge problem with many hardcore nerds is that they cannot see nor imagine anything outside their use case and daily needs.(a trait of austism - MANY engineers and programmers are austistic... helllloooooooooooooooooooooooo?) - not a problem, an observation, it's as clear as that.You tap a file on Android, and an "intent" picker pops up, offering you 20 different ways to open the file, with 20 different apps - WHY ARE YOU ASKING THE USER, PROGRAMMER? *YOU* designed the software, have the courage and confidence to JUST OPEN the file, showing them"This is what happens when you tap this file type"- END OF STORY.450 bajillion different handsets, random version of the OS, unknown whether the OS will be able to handle the file type you want...what AN ABSOLUTE MESS!Like MacDonalds sell more cheeseburgers than The Ritz sell premium steaks, Android vendors sell more than iPhones, SO WHAT? that is no indication of quality.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 20, 2021, 09:12:54 pm
content: Quote from: eti on October 20, 2021, 07:41:04 pmI think you are absolutely correct and I tend to face this on a weekly basis with some people in my team. It's difficult to encourage some people to think outside the box or challenge what they already know (or think they know). It does lead to some interesting conversations sometimes though.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2021, 05:19:03 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on October 20, 2021, 06:47:03 pmNo, that ispreciselywhat you were doing, since you said that people who “don’t care about how their computer works”… “just want to… browse the internet, watch YouTube and Netflix, and check email.” In fact, most people don’t care how their computer works, and that includes most professional users, too.Quote from: Halcyon on October 20, 2021, 06:47:03 pmWell, Windows 10 fixes a lot of the usability problems in prior versions of Windows (little things, each in isolation no biggie, but cumulatively becoming death by a thousand paper cuts), and it’s proven to be dramatically more stable for me than Windows 7 or earlier ever were. Also, far fewer issues with things like waking from sleep, which on my the Win 7 computer at my old job would often take upwards of five minutes (!!!) to actually become responsive after waking…It seems to me that the people who complain the most about new Microsoft software releases (Windows, Office, etc) are very long-time users who don’t like for anything whatsoever to change in the interface, never mind major changes. For people who haven’t been using it for as long, the newer releases do seem to be better, as borne out by MS’s usability testing.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2021, 09:34:23 pm
content: QuoteIt's the OS offering the stuff, is it not? Regardless, how is the programmer meant to know which of the bazillion random apps on the Play store the user wants to handle the file? Maybe you could spell out your solution to this problem?Perhaps the user could be consulted since he installed the apps. With a bit of thinking, instead of ranting, you could even come up with a tickbox: "Use this app every time", and then the user wouldn't be troubled again.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 21, 2021, 10:54:45 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on October 21, 2021, 05:19:03 amThat doesn't apply in my situation. Yes, Windows 10 fixed a bunch of stuff, but in doing so introduced a horrible GUI and even more problems, mostly mere annoyances but annoyances nonetheless. Why would I want to switch from a stable, working OS like Windows 7 to something that does a worse job like Windows 10? It makes no sense to me. It's not about resisting change, but if they are going to change the way they do things, at least make a change for the better. I'm actually slightly ashamed to admit it but even Apple MacOS annoys me less than Windows 10 does.Of course new users will generally have a better experience, as they don't have that benchmark of what Windows used to be. I've used every version of Windows since 3.0 and I remember how great some of those versions were. Even today, I still find Windows 7 more usable for my workflow than Windows 10. It just works and it's not in my face constantly.

author: fourfathom
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2021, 11:44:49 pm
content: Since we're sharing personal opinions, I happen to like Win10, and I've used every MS OS since MSDOS 1.? Back in the day I used many engineering programs on Unix workstations, and wrote MSDOS TSR programs that took over the ISRs and directly touched the hardware. Now, I couldn't do the TSR stuff on Win10, but for my daily use -- Verilog HDL, schematic, PCB, design and analysis tools, some programming, interfacing to instruments, and watching cat videos -- Win10 is my choice and I'm pretty happy with it.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2021, 12:07:14 am
content: QuoteYou have to be kidding. There is no way that scrollbar-less borderless windows are easier to use than previously. The lack of discoverability should have stuck 'usability' at a negative number, and you can further subtract ordinary-looking text that is actually a button or link (or links disguised as ordinary text). Far too much white space in the wrong places, and those are just some issues - there are plenty more.QuoteWell, yes. If they've known nothing then anything will be good. Walked everywhere all your life? An e-scooter will be luxury to you, but for anyone wanting to do real travel or transportation there are far better solutions.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2021, 12:29:29 am
content: Quote from: dunkemhigh on October 22, 2021, 12:07:14 amScrollbar-less windows are awful, that is very clearly a case of form over function. I absolutely hate the sea of whitespace look that has been so common too. There is an arms race between monitor resolutions increasing, and then UI designers just making everything bigger and more spread out to gobble up that space and it drives me nuts. I have a high resolution monitor because I want to be able to see lots of stuff at once.I think the issue is that software has become a mature commodity overall, there is not much else left to really innovate, so they change stuff for the sake of change and it follows fads just like clothing and fashion. Somebody comes up with some "bold" new look and everyone else jumps on the bandwagon and copies it, with little thought as to whether it actually makes sense.Case in point Apple just released a new line of Macbooks that have a freaking notch cut out of the top of the screen, just like their larger phoneExcept as bad as it is on the phones, at least they can almost claim it is for a reason because it holds the sensor array for Face ID, which the laptops don't even have.There is literally no purpose for the notch, other than to maybe make the already razor thin top bezel a few mm thinner, and it blows my mind that anyone would find a chunk cut out of the screen to be less objectionable than a slightly thicker bezel. I seriously thought it was a photoshopped joke when my friend sent me a picture of them. He was excited to buy a new top of the line laptop to replace his 5 year old Macbook and they fixed most of the things he didn't like about the older one but then screwed it all up with the stupid notch, which is something neither of us can stand.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2021, 01:46:43 am
content: Quote from: dunkemhigh on October 22, 2021, 12:07:14 amI didn’t say thateveryaspect is better!I completely, 100% agree with you on the lack of visual affordances that has taken over the entire computer industry. To me, as a former UX designer, it’s absolute, utter lunacy. And yeah, the oceans of white space… ugh.But there are nonetheless a slew of things they improved over Win 7 that make working with it a lot smoother. (One that’s right at the top for me: scrolling the object under the mouse, not the object that has focus.)Quote from: dunkemhigh on October 22, 2021, 12:07:14 amNo, Windows is the Toyota of the OS world. Some new users will be first-time drivers, but many will be experienced drivers of 18-wheelers (Linux) or BMWs (Mac).Quote from: james_s on October 22, 2021, 12:29:29 amI agree with every single word you wrote there.It makes me furious that I can’t see nearly as much information on a modern computer, with a much bigger display, as on a midsize display on a computer 20 years ago.I welcome high-DPI displays to give us increased sharpness and detail, but so many modern sites and software are just jokes, using 72-point headings and the like.I also hate when websites fix their content width, such that making the window wider doesn’t actually let you see any more, and resizing it narrower just makes it clip so you have to scroll left and right.I also detest how websites have become such fucking resource pigs. It’s insane that websites now take just as long to load as they did on dialup back in 1998. Sure, they now have more pictures, but it takes at least as long, if not longer, to actually be able to read the text of a page.Also, am I the only person to have noticed that most websites now break “back” behavior? Specifically, pages seem to almost always reload and jump back to the top of the page, whereas in the past they’d go back to whatever position you were scrolled down to. I know endless-scrolling pages (hiss, froth!) make that much more difficult to do (though Twitter gets it right), but it affects so many sites now, even ones that appear to be normal static pages. (Is it due to cache staleness? Do modern sites set the expiry time to be ultra short? Does it have to do with HTTPS? I’m not a web dev, so I’m not fully versed on the intricacies of that.)Quote from: james_s on October 22, 2021, 12:29:29 amI haven’t seen them in person yet, but while I doubt it’d bother me the way it does you guys, it certainly seems like an unnecessary tradeoff for such a small decrease in bezel. What did stand out to me is the grotesque asymmetry in the corner radiuses of the top lid and bottom cases, as seen from the side when closed. It’s like they cobbled together the lid and bottom from two different designs…

author: Bassman59
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2021, 04:47:18 am
content: Quote from: dunkemhigh on October 22, 2021, 12:07:14 amThere is a way to re-enable full-size scrollbars. I spent way too long looking for that little configuration option.I hate hate hate how the big red X "close window" button in the upper right corner of a window extends to the border of the window. What happens when you want to resize the window from the upper right? Yep -- you end up closing your window most of the time. On macOS the three buttons for close, zoom and minimize are just dots in the upper left corner of the window and they don't extend to the edge of the window. It's been like that since forever on the Mac, and it makes sense.At least Alt-F4 still works to close a window!What's weird is that the legacy Control Panel and other configuration stuff still exists along with a newer interface to do most of the same stuff, and it's completely confusing because sometimes you can't do what you want because the actual config thing is in some other menu somewhere. Where the hell is network configuration? All over the damn place.Also audio configuration and volume control are buried weirdly. On the Mac you can have your volume control right there on the menu bar, along with every obvious ways to control audio sources.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2021, 05:32:30 am
content: Quote from: tooki on October 22, 2021, 01:46:43 amI haven't seen the new Macbooks in person yet but I've seen lots of notched iPhones and I hate them every bit as much now as I did the first time I saw them. I also absolutely cannot stand the rabid fanbois who love to blow off my complaints as whining over nothing. I'm OCD, I know this, I'm not offended by people calling it what it is, a mental disorder, but whatever, things like the notch cut out of the display, or a logo floating in the corner of the TV, or a blob of dead pixels or a spitwad on the screen, it drives me absolutely NUTS, I can't ignore it, it's like talking to someone that has something obviously stuck in their teeth. It's doubly annoying that I know most of those people who blow off my complaints as ridiculous whining over nothing would absolutely blow a gasket if I suggested a person with depression "just get over it" or some other such thing.Now I think you already know this but I am not anti-Apple by any means. I've had an employer issued Macbook Pro since 2018 and there are a lot of things I really love about it, the OS is fantastic compared to recent versions of Windows, the fit & finish is great, but the keyboard is crap, I've never liked the lack of ports, and while I really tried to like the touchbar I just never found a good use for it and it doesn't work as well as physical keys for most of what I do use it for, it's too easy to bump it accidentally. They fixed almost all of these things in the new one, but then they screwed it all up with that infuriating notch, and I'm fairly sure they did it just as a fashion statement, people see the notch and they know you're using the latest Macbook, until cheap PC clone laptops start copying it in a few weeks. It's like they actually listened to almost every complaint I had about the Macbook I have and fixed them all, then slapped me in the face giving it a stupid notch.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2021, 05:37:44 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on October 20, 2021, 09:07:32 amI have several Android devices, I tried to like it, I really did, for those reasons you mention, it is absolutely more customizable than iOS. I just can't though, every device I've ever had that runs Android is glitchy and buggy, it's hard to even put a finger on what it is I don't like about it but it just doesn't work the way I do and I don't like it. I love Linux and I love open source software, I really, really wish that iOS was more open, but I tolerate the way that it is because my phone is a tool, I don't tinker with it, I don't hack it, I rely heavily on it and don't want to risk breaking it. I would never tolerate this kind of locked down inflexibility in a general purpose computer but a phone, I just want it to work. There is no great mobile OS, I just find iOS less intolerable than Android.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2021, 07:36:04 am
content: I can't think of anything which is fixed in Windows 10. The user interface is now even more inconsistent, with Metro apps being huge, compared to traditional programs. Some of the keyboard shortcuts no longer work. On Windows 7 and before, I could quickly shutdown a PC, by pressing the Windows key, u and enter. On Windows 10, it just searches for programs on the start menu beginning with u.The new MS Office Ribbon UI is crap. It often takes more mouse clicks to do the same thing, as older versions. Even using keyboard shortcuts doesn't help much. In previous versions I could get straight to the open file dialog box by pressing ctr+o. Now it takes me to a list of recently opened files, which occupies the entire screen. To get to the open file dialog box, I have to select browse. The whole thing is rubbish.It isn't a case of me resisting change. I've used most Windows versions since 3, as well as non-MS operating systems such as Acorn OS and various Linux desktops and still say Windows 10 is pretty bad. I just don't know what Microsoft were thinking.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2021, 10:06:38 am
content: QuoteTrue! SorryQuoteI'm on W7 and that's how my scrolling with the mouse works for me. In fact I just tried it to be sure because it's so 'normal' I thought I might be misremembering. Ithinkthere was a setting I had to change, but it's so long ago I can't recall if it was in the OS or mouse driver. A quick check of the driver (Logitech) doesn't show anything, though. I note that my window manager has the option to 'scroll inactive windows with the mouse', but that's not enabled! Damn, this is annoying now.Quote!!! <--- speechless

author: thinkfat
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 22, 2021, 11:48:28 am
content: Quote from: NiHaoMike on October 19, 2021, 10:29:18 pmWhat difference does it make whether I download the APKs manually or use an equally sketchy tool to do it?QuoteSigh. The whole scheme gets more impratical with each of your responses. Now I need a "good" phone that is de-googled and does nothing and a throw-away phone that is allowed to deliver ads. How is that supposed to make a No-Google Android device attractive to a "normal" person.I'm not saying that a device purely based on AOSP isn't a nice thing - for a nerd. It's just not a nice thing _to_have_ if your needs don't primarily revolve around privacy or you just like to tinker.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2021, 12:41:35 pm
content: Quote from: thinkfat on October 22, 2021, 11:48:28 amOpen source lets you inspect what it's doing.QuoteThat cheap device could cost as little as $5. Can you name a cheaper way to watch Youtube without ads and still support the creators? (There might be a Youtube viewer app out there that hides the ads instead of blocking them, haven't looked for one.)

author: thinkfat
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 22, 2021, 02:50:22 pm
content: I could also jump through hoops. My point still stands: A de-Googled Android phone is not a practical device, no more than any of the existing Open Source options out there. None of them managed to take off. Everything you brought to the table just adds another layer of hurt.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2021, 03:59:46 pm
content: QuoteIt potentially lets some of us inspect it if we could be arsed and had the time, but no-one is going to. For the vast majority of people it's just not even been through the cursory inspection that Google gives them.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2021, 09:57:12 pm
content: Quote from: dunkemhigh on October 22, 2021, 03:59:46 pmYep. The whole “you can inspect and modify the code yourself” thing forgets that most people aren’t programmers, and that even those that are don’t normally have the time to acquaint themselves with an existing code base.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2021, 10:27:25 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on October 22, 2021, 09:57:12 pmThat's absolutely true, however just like the potted electronic devices, it only takes one person curious enough to inspect the code and raise the alarm if there is something nefarious there. Then that draws attention to it and scores of other technological minded people can go take a look and verify these claims. It is not necessary for every individual to inspect the code they're using, the code is out there and can be inspected, if there is something there, somebody will probably find it sooner or later. I have actually modified a few trivial command line utilities in Linux and I was glad to have the ability to do so.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2021, 10:47:47 pm
content: QuoteIn some stuff it has been very much later, presumably because everyone thought someone else was looking at it.There is also the problem that malicious actors can spot flaws and exploit them more easily (and know that since they have the latest source, no-one has fixed them yet).https://www.technologyreview.com/2010/06/07/262916/open-source-could-mean-an-open-door-for-hackers/Quote

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2021, 10:54:33 pm
content: Nothing is ever perfect, but I'd rather have access to the code than not. Maybe I'll never actually look through it and maybe I won't find anything useful if I do, but I still like the fact that I can.

author: eti
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2021, 11:22:40 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on October 22, 2021, 10:54:33 pmThat’s the whole hype angle of “Open source” - they KNOW you could but won’t, and because you base your trust on that naivety, who knows what stuff gets through? (and don’t tell me it doesn’t and that “ someone would pick up on it”)

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2021, 12:34:46 pm
content: Quote from: thinkfat on October 22, 2021, 02:50:22 pmWould it be better to just move the Play Store app (which you blindly trust?) into a restricted environment so that it only runs when you want to use it and has very limited access to personal data?https://f-droid.org/en/packages/com.oasisfeng.island.fdroid/

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 24, 2021, 12:45:23 am
content: Quote from: NiHaoMike on October 23, 2021, 12:34:46 pmSecurity/privacy is always a trade-off with user experience. Whether you're using the Apple store or the Google Play store, you forego certain things for the easy-to-use experience. I've used Android devices in the past where none of the Google services were installed and it's an absolute pain in the ass. Sideloading applications isn't hard in itself, it's just getting access to reputable copies of the APK makes it risky. I'd rather just get them from Google Play as I know they are the real deal and the risk of malicious software is extremely remote. I really don't care if Google know which applications I've installed, it means nothing. What I do care about is what private or personal information Google keeps on me and part of that is simply not supplying that information in the first place.

author: eti
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2021, 03:14:38 am
content: The play store hosts SO MUCH junk, I can't believe anyone would out their trust in what Google deems as "acceptable"

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 24, 2021, 04:39:30 am
content: Quote from: eti on October 24, 2021, 03:14:38 amSo does the Apple store. In any case, why should Google, Apple or any other company be able to dictate what people can or can't install on their phones? If people want to download garbage apps, let them. As long as they aren't malicious, there shouldn't be any restrictions on the types of applications available for end-users. Both operating systems already do an excellent job of protecting users from themselves.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 27, 2021, 11:11:27 pm
content: The Microsoft store has more garbage than the Google and Apple stores all combined.I don't like being told what I can install, but it certainly reflects badly on the platform if the store is cluttered with a bunch of scammy trash. The whole benefit of the walled garden arrangement from the user standpoint is having a collection of vetted apps that meet a certain bar in terms of quality. If they're going to let second tier crap in there it should at least be in a separate area for advanced users.Since I like to be able to install whatever I want, I use a PC where I have full administrator privileges. For my phone I care less, as long as it supports the handful of mainstream apps I regularly use, I don't really care if I can install other stuff.