Anyone know how domestic electricity meters handle reactive loads? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2011, 11:11:44 pm
content: For instance I used to have one of the traditional electromechanical meters with the spinning disk. Lately the electricity company replaced it with a modern electronic "smart meter".In the case of either or both kinds of meter, how do they respond to out of phase current? Do they do a good integration of the true kWh, or do they measure or get influenced by reactive current too? Would this affect your electricity bill?There have been some reports of electricity bills going up after a smart meter was installed. Could this be anything to do with smart meters measuring reactive loads differently?

author: DaveW
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2011, 11:31:24 pm
content: I'm pretty sure the old style meters assume current and voltage in phase for a domestic installation, and then they can put you on an industrial plan with penalties for reduced power factor if it's a problem; don't know about the old ones though.I've heard and confirmed (using the very limited sample size of my meter compared to a home built meter) that the old style meters can very often measure under the right amount, which normally explains the cost increases

author: Kiriakos-GR
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2011, 11:37:06 pm
content: I am proudly presenting my three phase meter, made in Greece at 1980 still in use .Speaking about digital ones VS analogue, I think that the digital one is more easy to be tested about accuracy.About true power bills ?Well they check the meter every four months, and they monthly charge you with an average of your older bills.The system about meter check and bills, by it self it is chaotic, I do not know what happens in your city .

author: onemilimeter
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2011, 12:36:41 am
content: I think the old day meter just measures the ACTIVE power used by the consumer.Dedicated ICs for energy measurement:http://www.analog.com/en/analog-to-digital-converters/energy-measurement/products/index.html

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 02, 2011, 01:09:54 am
content: Quote from: IanB on August 01, 2011, 11:11:44 pmI cannot comment specifically about your patch of the globe, but it seems where I am anyway the term SMART in regard to meters is only smart as in deceptive. Smart meters here are essentially time of day meters, they promise savings with reduced tariffs the catch being those saving only benefit insomniacs, and are more than eroded by a gouging tariff at the times the normal of our species may actually want to cook, wash or watch TV.Smart meters may or may not be time of day meter, the marketers have muddied the waters and the term smart is applied to anything with a display or not an entirely electromechanical device.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2011, 02:19:35 am
content: Quote from: Uncle Vernon on August 02, 2011, 01:09:54 amI believe you are correct, the digital electronic "smart meters" allow variable tariffs depending on time of day and overall demand levels. For instance when it's hot during the middle of the day here in California and everyone turns up the AC, the electricity might get more expensive to discourage consumption. They are not permitted to do that yet, but they are gearing up for it in readiness for the day when they can.

author: PetrosA
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2011, 03:11:49 am
content: I can't be sure about meters in other parts of the world, but as far as I know here in the US mechanical meters were calibrated for an average 0.85-0.88 power factor which is/was typical for residential loads. This meant that the meters were accurate when the pf of the home was near 0.85 but slightly inaccurate at other pf's. I've heard that the modern digital meters are more accurate over a wider range of pf's so that might be why some customers notice an increase in their bill. Either way, they're only supposed to meter kWh, not kVA.

author: ejeffrey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2011, 06:57:04 am
content: Mechanical meters measure true power, at least under non-absurd load factors. They do this by making a normal motor where both the rotor and the stator are electromagnets. One coil is driven by the line voltage, and the other has the load current (or some fraction of the load current) pass through it. The torque on the disk is the product of the two currents, and thus proportional to the true power.One common feature of electronic meters is to additionally measure apparent power, and therefore power factor. In some cases the power company will give you a discount if you have a near unity power factor because it reduces their transmission losses -- I^2*R is the apparent power.

author: Jimmy
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2011, 10:43:53 am
content: The new meters measures more accurately because there is no mechanical friction on the meter. When your fridge turns on and pull's 6 x normal running current the old meters don't measure all that power in the spike. Now with the new meters they can measure in both directions eg solar system, they can be read wireless which means no human error, in the future they can charge for peak and off peak rates and they know your power factor.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 02, 2011, 11:06:53 am
content: Quote from: Jimmy on August 02, 2011, 10:43:53 amNo right now! And in a lot of cases supply authorities are demanding smart meters for new installations. A quick look at the rates and you will see why. Unless you live like a bat you are going to get stitched up for power. Yes if you use your air conditioner in the cool of the night you can save, your options during the day are to either perish in the heat or race towards bankruptcy. Apparently this is good.http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/sydney-nsw/energyaustralias-mart-meters-fail/story-e6freuzi-1225856611620http://www.integralenergy.com.au/wps/wcm/connect/28e00d0047664dc59782d78c06da372e/OR0089_IE+2011+Price+Guide.pdf?MOD=AJPERES

author: ejeffrey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2011, 11:16:07 am
content: Quote from: Jimmy on August 02, 2011, 10:43:53 amMechanical power meters can and do run backwards if the power flow reverses unless the manufacturer deliberately adds a mechanical ratchet to stop them. They are inherently bidirectional devices.

author: tecman
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2011, 06:51:17 pm
content: The old mechanical meters were amazingly accurate, and would record "true" power, even under fairly extreme power factors. The new electronic meters are true multiplying power meters, which means that they multiply voltage and current at a fast enough sampling rate that they are essentially multiplying in real time. They too will not be effected by a wide range of power factors. While quite accurate today, the electronic meters still have a resolution problem that makes them lag in overall accuracy as compared to a healthy mechanical meter. Usually under 0.1%, and the quantization errors tend to average over time so that the long term errors wash out to near zero.As stated earlier, mechanicals are true bi-directional power measuring. The new electronic ones will only measure bidirectional power if programmed to do so. I am currently in the middle of installing a 9.2 KW PV system, and the utility will change my "smart" meter on final hook up to enable the ability to backfeed. I guess the power companies do this "just to be sure".paul

author: Bloch
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 02, 2011, 07:06:06 pm
content: Quote from: tecman on August 02, 2011, 06:51:17 pmOr if they want or must different price.Here in Denmark there are some rules about max 6KW solar power. Over that is the kw/h price lower.

author: Jimmy
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2011, 09:56:25 pm
content: QuoteTrue however I was not clear is saying that where I live they charge me 18 cent per kwh and I get 44 cent per kwh I put into the grid. This makes solar power more attractive to install.

author: Kiriakos-GR
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2011, 10:17:24 pm
content: The feature of Green Energy is not that positive.An major Greek professor and scientist said that its impossible to mix in a stable grid ( nuclear reactor or other),with more than 12% of Green energy.If you mix more, the grid becomes unstable.And the point is that I believe him, by having in mind how low it is the performance of the DC/AC converters that we use today.

author: tecman
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2011, 10:34:27 pm
content: Quote from: Kiriakos-GR on August 02, 2011, 10:17:24 pmWhat you say might be true with PV and inverters. There is an issue with power quality on utility scale PV. The projects I have been working on at work are thermal solar, where parabolic mirror arrays heat a special oil which is used to generate steam in a relatively conventional power plant. In these plants the power quality is not affected.The biggest issue with PV based power will drop when a cloud blocks the sun, creating transients and instability on the grid. This could be a problem as more PV is installed. Several companies are working on various storage technologies to smooth short term issues and help maintain grid stability.paul

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2011, 10:49:09 pm
content: Quote from: tecman on August 02, 2011, 10:34:27 pmTraditional power grids have utilized a relatively few large base load generating plants and a mix of smaller peak load generating facilities. I think the large base load plants contribute a useful stabilizing effect. But what if you had a grid where a majority of the power came from a multitude of small generators with unpredictable output? Even with some storage facilities (using what technology?) this seems like a significant control problem. Even now, the national grid in the UK is talking about relaxing some of the requirements for frequency control, perhaps with this in mind?I can see in the future a possibility of breaking up the grid into many smaller grids with local generation closer to the point of use. This would reduce the control problem for each grid to more manageable proportions, but would likely have reduced reliability overall.I think a sensible long term answer is to have more nuclear base load generation. Many heads are being buried in sand when it comes to the realities of electrical power generation and usage.

author: Kiriakos-GR
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2011, 11:48:48 pm
content: Well boys now its your time to find the solutions about the electrical energy.If you do not, the Junior Sagan will do it, and you will loose money and fame.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 03, 2011, 12:06:48 am
content: Quote from: Kiriakos-GR on August 02, 2011, 11:48:48 pmThe solutions required are political more than technical. The solutions to cleaner production of electricity are obvious to anyone with half a clue. The massive hikes in utility prices have had nothing to do with any form of emissions reduction. Only one think to do to politicians who have promoted such lunacy. (and no you don't need to throw rocks or wave placards to achieve it)

author: Kiriakos-GR
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2011, 12:34:23 am
content: Quote from: Uncle Vernon on August 03, 2011, 12:06:48 amI will use the yellow helicopter if I have too.

author: tecman
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2011, 03:02:07 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on August 02, 2011, 10:49:09 pmThe biggest issue with the PV is that a passing cloud can knock 10 MW off line in 30 sec to a minute. With solar thermal you have a ride through of 10 minutes or so. Reacting to a large off-on line supply is that the larger generation plants have longer reaction times. Even though 10 MW does not seem like much on the grid, it can cause some instabilities, especially when the grid is near capacity.Some of the companies we are working with for energy storage are using compressed air storage and chemical batteries. The batteries are not normal chemistry, but more exotic designs. There are also a few flywheel based storage pilot plants in operation. The purpose it to provide short term fill-in to maintain stability on the grid, not for longer term generation. In solar thermal, many of the new plants in the planning and construction phase have molten salt storage. This uses a mixture of salts to store heat for generation. These can provide a hundred or more megawatt-hours of energy in the largest facilities. There are several of these in operation in Spain and a couple coming on line in the US in the next 5 years.Wind has a similar problem that the power can come and go fairly quickly. It has been a problem with larger wind farms, but not yet so big as to threaten the grid. Newer regulations coming in a year or so will make it even more critical to maintain grid stability. Newer technology is leaning towards inverter technology in wind turbines to improve the grid stability and quality.paul

author: Bloch
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 03, 2011, 04:39:44 pm
content: First that is a PV ??Quote from: tecman on August 03, 2011, 03:02:07 pmI disagree thatwind farms threaten the gridThe Grid have to be extended to more power than needed in the old days (before wind farms)If the grid is large enough the and the windfarns are divided all over the grid well the no problem. There will always to some there there is some wind ....I live in Denmark we have alotof wind turbines. I have seen days the are 50% off the wind is coming from wind turbinesOn this page you can see a real time power grid for Denmarkhttp://energinet.dk/Flash/Forside/index.htmlCentral kraftværker = Central power plantsDecentral kraftværker = Decentralized power plantsVindmøller = Wind turbinesNettoudvekslin import = Net exchange importSamlet forbrug = Total consumption

author: tecman
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2011, 05:52:26 pm
content: Quote from: Bloch on August 03, 2011, 04:39:44 pmfirst of all, PV is Photo Voltaic. Otherwise known as solar cells.I has stated that wind does not threaten grid stability now. Some areas of Europe are now using HVDC for transmission of wind power, which resolves most stability issues since the power can be easily dispatched from remote power plants and converted locally to AC near the consumer.Grid stability is an issue today without renewables. At university I had a whole semester on grid stability, and it is a well established, but critical balance amongst providers and consumers. Here is one small discussion on the subject:http://eioc.pnnl.gov/research/gridstability.stmThe intermittency of wind power can similarly cause stability issues as wind becomes a larger factor. While remediation of this problem is well controlled in most cases, it is still a major issue. Wind has a number of factors that make it worse in some cases compared to other sources. You can see some of the issues:http://www.caricom.org/jsp/projects/credp/F%20Castellanos%20Wind%20Power%20for%20stability.pdfYour country may has a number of factors that tend to promote more stability, such as steadier demand without a high level of daily and hourly demand swings,; a much smaller grid system; more distributed wind throughout the grid and perhaps greater conventional generation capacity.In the US, transmission systems are stretched, regional demand peaks can reach the system capacity and most of the renewables are located in relatively concentrated geographic areas that have a relatively small demand. The result is long transmission distances for the power and sometimes difficult load profiles. Also the lack of much HVDC transmission means that most of the grid is synchronous and coupled together. This is an area where I do quite a bit of work and it is a significant concern with growing renewable profiles.paul

author: ejeffrey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2011, 06:37:35 pm
content: The variation of wind and PV supply is not substantially worse than the variation caused by load demands. Geographic diversity can help average out a lot of short term variation, particularly the very fast shifts you get in solar if you have huge installations. The problem is really that at least in the US the grid is already not really adequate for the demands placed on it, and regularly fails under peak loads.The solutions to these problems are well known, but they do cost money. More transmission capacity to deal with peak loads, including long-distance transmission to get power where it is needed, more HVDC links to avoid phase instability, and more demand pricing to encourage load leveling.Wind especially has often been criticized for leading to off-peak overproduction in regions with heavy deployment. This occasionally leads to negative electricity prices, and pisses off coal plant owners to no end. My understanding is that wind generators can easily be scaled back very quickly, and this is usually due to tax incentives to run 100% whenever possible. In an ideal world, even without the tax credits we don't want to throttle the capital intensive renewables with near zero marginal costs, this would be a case where you would seriously have to look at grid scale storage.

author: ciccio
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2011, 09:46:36 pm
content: Returning to the thread's subject, in Italy about 90% of meters are of the "smart" type.Everybody has seen his bill increase with the new meter, be it a "flat" rate or a "hourly rate".There have been cases where a judge ordered the power company to stop billing some customers, because they have seen a three to five fold increase of their bills (Milano' vegetables market)There still are some unsolved points:1) the meter used by ENEL (the big Italian supplier) and by all the other suppliers (we have free market for electricity, but the wires are all an ENEL's property) is an industrial secret. To avoid the risk of somebody interfering with the remote meter reading (digitally done over the power line) they had it designed abroad (I'm told in England) and have the boards made by a contract supplier in the Far East. Only the final assembly (mechanical and internal wiring) of the meter is done in Italy.(This was the situation 5 years ago, I don't know the situation now).2) Nobody knows (or atl least nobody knew 5 years ago) what algorithm is used to compute power, especially on three phase systems.I know this because 5 years ago I was called to act as a "Tecnical Expert" for a lawyer that had a court proceeding on behalf of a customer who refused to pay a bill about twice the one of the previous year.In his shop he had a 3-phase system, but really unbalanced, with about no load on one phase. I was not allowed to dismantle the meter, I had to do measurements on the customer's premises.The results of my measurements (made with high quality loaned instruments) were incongruent because I could not load the system as I would do, but I understood that the "smart" meter response was (approximately) this: take the power of the phase with more current, then multiply it by a number between 2 and 3.This could not be refuted by the utility's expert, who did not (or could not) disclose the real algorithm.He could only say that the load must be balanced, by contractThe judge ordered the utility to stop billing until they could present the documents of point 3 following.3) A law dating from about 1870 says that when you sell something by measure (length, volume, weight, etc) you must have the measuring instrument (a meter, a calibrated counter, a weight scale, etc) tested and periodically verified by a government body (in our case the Provincial Bureau of Weights and Measures).They check your scale and put a seal on it. Older meters had a "type compliance" and "factory calibration" seal on them, the new don't.The judge asked the utility to show such documentation, and he is still waiting (or at least was waiting 2 years ago when I had the last news about the proceeding).Out of topic: many other judges decided that the above law applies also to the meters (lasers, radars or whatever) that are used by the police for speed tickets: they had to be periodically checked by a Competent Body that could supply a Certificate of Calibration. In Italy there was no such Body equipped for speed calibration, so many tickets were condoned and many "points" were returned to the driver's license, until a Calibration Lab was equipped.

author: ipman
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 04, 2011, 09:27:05 am
content: In our country Enel is also present, using a meter named ACE2000 for residentia single-phase users. Don't know details about the three-phase models ACE 3000-7000, but proabably the same used in Italy, UE-approved.Our law says that every measuring device must be calibrated and verified by the accredited institute before using it to meter something sold, but hard to tell if it was really verified.By the way, the single phase model does not care about PF, but the three-phase models will measure PF.

author: Kiriakos-GR
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 04, 2011, 10:19:02 am
content: Quote from: Bloch on August 03, 2011, 04:39:44 pmThe explanation is all ready given, but it is just another Greek pair of words who causes a normal confusion to the others.The word spelled as " photo " comes from the Greek word " fos " = lightthe many single sources of light called as "fota" , acoustically the word phota sound's better LOL ,and you getting some distance from the F** words too.The word voltaic spelled in Greece like " volta i ko " ( volt tay ko ) and describes the electricity.With the description of " photo voltaic bow " the Greeks describe the arc flash.Now you are ready for a cross word competition. LOL

author: Bloch
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 04, 2011, 11:08:53 am
content: Quote from: tecman on August 03, 2011, 05:52:26 pmYes HVDC can solve alot off theproblemschallenge.There right now a lot of connections and they are building more. It is the Hydroelectric power from Norway we uses as regulations in the summertime (snow is melting) (I think by looking at the power flow)I dont know if Usa is already do that with Hoover Dam.On day there may even be a HVDC cable from Usa to Europe.PS do you know if there are favorable conditions rules / or reasons for making new wind turbines 150 to 300kw size ?

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 04, 2011, 05:46:00 pm
content: Quote from: DaveW on August 01, 2011, 11:31:24 pmIt depends on where yo live I suppose but here in the UK, the old meters were true power meters and the same is true for the newer electronic meters.The only exception I'm aware of is the British Gas EnergySmart power monitor which uses a magnetic sensor clipped over the wire and doesn't measure the voltage, unless it uses some sort of E-field detector too. This doesn't mattter as the EnergySmart system isn't used for billing, it's just to help customers monitor their power usage.

author: Sal Ammoniac
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 04, 2011, 08:35:35 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on August 02, 2011, 02:19:35 amI'm sure they're just a few million dollars in campaign contributions away from achieving their goal.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2011, 02:03:27 am
content: Quote from: Uncle Vernon on August 02, 2011, 11:06:53 amYou could use a smart controller to run the A/C harder off-peak in order to store coolness using thermal inertia so it does not have to run as much or at all during the peak. Many commercial systems already do that, using a large water tank for thermal storage to maximize the effectiveness of the system. And it's even more effective when combined with better insulation. (Don't tell me you can't afford it - a surprisingly good controller can be made from a $1 microcontroller and taping aluminum foil to windows exposed to sunlight goes a long way to staying cool.)The same idea works for space and water heaters, the water heater especially as it inherently has a large thermal inertia and is generally used little during usual peak times.And don't forget that much of the peak time would be when you're at work, when the main loads do not need to run or only need to run a little.What would make more sense is for peak times, only usage over 1kW or so (averaged over 10 seconds or so in order to not count inrush, also dependent on the size of the house) gets the higher rate. And when conditions allow, introduce (staggered) breaks in the peak time (5-10 minutes every 30-60 minutes or so) so even systems will little thermal inertia can take advantage. PLC technology can allow the meter to tell all the loads and users when is and isn't peak, and for the grid to tell the meter when to use peak and when not to.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 10, 2011, 03:06:46 am
content: Quote from: NiHaoMike on August 10, 2011, 02:03:27 amHow do domestic uses run split consoles harder? Makes a bit of a joke of the inverter concept doesn't it, with inverter design being less efficent than direct drive when run at full capacity.QuoteStore where exactly?QuoteI've worked with large ice and glycol storage systems for years, the concepts work fine. The hard commercial reality however is that the maintenance required, and the stupidity of many building engineers has resulted in most system never realising the potential they could achieve. Where exactly do you put ice storage tanks in high density domestic urban environments?QuoteNo dispute on that one. Not so easy to retrofit though. With many homes it would work out cheaper to bulldoze and start again. Where are the $$$s for that?QuoteOK I wont tell you.Quoteplus a few thand dollars worth of peripherals and installation. Arduino hanging from swichboards are not quite a community solution in present form.QuoteSo can wrapping your home with polystyrene sheet and wearing A&F sweatshirts. But again hardly practical solutions.Quotewhat is wrapping a water heater with aluminium foil going to achieve other than risking electrocution and using up a lot of potential material for the fashioning of hats.QuoteYou'd be much better considering the retrofit of an evacuated tube solar heater which will year round, almost (totally in my case) remove the need to utilise power or gas for water heating.QuoteI work from home. Isn't telecommuting being heralded as a current solution to reducing energy needs and reducing polution. Boy they've really though that one through haven't they?QuoteWhat has energy pricing got to do with making sense? Why is 1Kw the magical figure? Why not 800w or 1.4Kw? Why do peak loads not count? Does the grid just know the loads are peak andhum on regardless?QuoteSure PLCs can but, I make a living from this stuff controls can do all manner of clever stuff but just as importantly there are still lots of things controls cannot do.Controls can only go part way to improving efficiency of mechanical systems! Controls cannot improve the capacity of undersized plant!Sure smart meters could become part of a much better way of doing things, but that isn't what is happening. Make no mistake in current form these meter are nothing but another public price gouge. Until we get some planning, foresight, political will, good engineering and common sense back into forward planning all these supposed saving being forced onto the public are nothing but additional costs.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2011, 05:27:16 am
content: A relatively simple trial and error algorithm for the A/C is to first "learn" the system characteristics by electronically monitoring its operation vs. time for a few days. Then try forcing it to run (decrease thermostat setting) for something like 1 hour before the peak. If it consistently manages to net an overall reduced cost, increase the time. If it increases the cost, decrease the time. (That is very oversimplified, as it would create a new peak if widely deployed. Some dithering of the "peak" times would be needed to prevent that.) The really slow timeframe allows the use of a slow microcontroller, and it does not take much to interface it to common 24V home HVAC systems.QuoteEverything has thermal inertia. The room being cooled will have some. It would be unlikely for it to have enough to prevent running the A/C altogether on the peak, but it would help. (For the water heater, however, it is very likely for there to be enough thermal inertia that it does not need to run at all during the peak.) If the peak times are broken up (with dithering to prevent new peaks), even a little thermal inertia would become quite effective. The idea is to spread the peak out, as the overall grid efficiency can increase even if the end users use a little more energy.QuoteJust try an experiment with aluminum foil to block sunlight and you'll know just how well it works. And you don't have to block the whole window to gain an advantage - just the section that lets in the most sunlight. Put the foil on a piece of cardboard and it can be easily installed and removed.QuoteFor those who do leave home during much of the day, that's exactly when most large loads can be set to aggressive energy saving settings or turned off altogether. Not much sense leaving the A/C at 78F when the house is empty.QuoteHaving a total rate increase would essentially encourage trying to push the usage to zero during peak - not practical and not desirable. Limiting cheap energy would encourage lowering the load below that limit - much more practical. 1kW would easily power a refrigerator and a lot of home electronics, maybe even a small A/C as well with proper control. For obvious reasons, the limit would scale depending on the size of the house. Those staying under the limit would not pay any extra.QuoteAs an example, you have a 40W incandescent bulb in a large room. It is not bright enough, so you put a reflector on it and point it to where you want it. The bulb has not changed, but it now works better at lighting up the area you want. If the area you want lit up is small enough, a properly designed reflector would be more effective than just replacing the bulb with a 40W (really 40W, not 40W equivalent) CFL. (Doing both, of course, works the best...) Similarly, heating and cooling can be directed to reduce energy use without increasing the efficiency of the device providing it.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 10, 2011, 06:32:44 am
content: Quote from: NiHaoMike on August 10, 2011, 05:27:16 amThegreat majority are undersized. There ain't a algorithm in the cosmos that is going to rectify that.QuoteYes but some things have very little. Case in point being brick veneer spec homes.Quoteseveral seconds worth at least.QuoteBINGO!QuoteTheoretically at least. Just as in theory standing on a bucket can get you closer to the sun.QuoteHow much peak power do you save by disconnecting (already disconnected) off-peak power during peak times? Smart meter isn't going to help you there.QuoteMakes you wonder why they don't foilwrap commercial buildings, doesn't it?QuoteMakes you wonder why the daytime loads when all those salary slaves are away at work, are much higher than other times. Something that has escaped the understanding of far too many greenie politicians.QuoteWhereas the reality is that Joe Public just ends up paying more for the same level of consumption and pollution. No dolphins have been saved thus far.QuoteOr would bring about the less favourable situation where many of our cities larger buildings are now running more polluting and far less efficient diesel plant to meet there peak load obligations. Flipper dips out again!Quoteand the location of the house the usage of the house, the number of occupants etc. How is this 1Kw universally applicable?QuoteIn Australia business commerce and household have reduced their consumption despite population growth, end we are paying more for less Kw, smart meter look set to fleece the majority further. Yeah those incentives are sure workable and equitable.QuoteIs that like where some idiot politician (yes You Malcolm) outlaws filament lamps across the land, yeahthat one really resulted a dint on the national consumption, the result have never even been measurable. But we can replace cool room CFC globes and the pollution associated with their manufacture on a fortnightly basis.QuoteYeah and you can save even more buy turning it off completely and perishing due to exposure. Shopping centres could save thousands by shutting off plant but if it's sticky and uncomfortable in their centres and people shop elsewhere what will be the bottom line?I've had a gutful of all this savings by guilt mentality! Do we all wan to go back to living in caves or do we want actual engineered solutions? All this feel good palaver we see now is solving nothing and costing us all a fortune. Time for a little more common sense and little more good design.

author: ejeffrey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2011, 07:19:51 am
content: In my parents home town the (municipal) power plant had a really nice program where you could get slightly lower summer electricity costs by installing a remote 'kill switch' on your AC where they could turn it off for several minutes at a time. It didn't change your thermostat set point, so when the override cut out, your AC would immediately kick on. The intent was that all of the AC units in the city instead of randomly switching independently creating large load fluctuation would be 'synchronized' leveling the average load. You give up a little in thermal regulation, but the power company has to run their peaking generators less often, and everyone saves money.Smart metering and demand pricing only actually improves efficiency if customers have loads that can be time shifted. At the moment, only industrial users are likely to have loads that can be shifted more than a few minutes. The only thing that is likely to change that is wider use of electric cars / plug-in hybrids. Of course at the moment the grid is woefully unprepared to deal with widespread adoption of electric vehicles in any case.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2011, 01:23:18 pm
content: QuoteIf that was the case, the older A/Cs would have never worked. More like many minutes to an hour. And that's why introducing staggered breaks in the peak times would help.QuoteWhat I suggested would really only apply to residential buildings. However, widespread adoption of on-site CHP would reduce energy use and increase emergency readiness.QuoteCompromise. Turn the A/C up to 82F or more instead of turning it completely off. Use a fan to stay cool, preferably a high speed inverter type for a higher air velocity.As for heat, it's almost too easy. Once, I have set it down to 52F, using an electric blanket to stay warm at night and a jacket to stay warm during the day. For what it's worth, my friend Allie Moore (an environmentalist) sets hers at 56F and she admits that nobody has challenged her until that time.QuoteIt would be nice if you could adjust the "aggressiveness" to get the most savings you are okay with.

author: Frangible
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2011, 03:52:12 pm
content: It is odd that any meter manufacturer would use some secret and unverifiable method for calculating three phase power usage. The IEC 61000-4 standard pretty much dictates exactly how the measurements are to be taken. I've been working on a four quadrant industrial power meter for the past few months - so I've learned plenty about the annoying details that have to be dealt with in order to even get in the door at a European utility. How anybody could bypass that requirement is beyond me.

author: GeoffS
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 11, 2011, 09:47:39 pm
content: Quote from: Uncle Vernon on August 02, 2011, 11:06:53 amI got hit with this awhile back. Due to a connection failure to the house, the main board had to be rewired. When the electricity authority came to sign off on the work, they kindly offered my landlord a nice new meter at no charge - of course he said yes.My power bill went up at least 10% based in the privilege of being able to be charged different rates for peak, off peak and shoulder times.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 12, 2011, 12:03:10 am
content: Quote from: GeoffS on August 11, 2011, 09:47:39 pmIt's a real kick in the teeth for individual who have made every effort to avoid waste and reduce consumption. There is nothing wrong with the technology but plenty wrong with the political reality that allow this technology to be used as a price gouge.Same applies with authority based load switching, unchecked it can and is used solely to the advantage of the supply authority. What should be short interruptions often turns to extended periods forcing consumers plant to increase overall consumption in a catch up cycle.Latest con is for supply authorities to now not even be arsed to read their own meters anything but periodically. You get billed based on your highest average consumption. If when they do bother to take a reading they are lagging you get an adjustment, if your consumption is down you know what happens to any savings unless you personally chase it.The technology for metering is as good as it needs to be, all these schemes are a con. Metering cannot improve efficiency of distribution or production. Metering cannot other than by brute force improve efficiency of usage. We need to be looking at how we can improve efficiency if we truly want to reduce emissions, anything else is a joke for anyone other than those who would have our species revert to cave dwelling.

author: linc1
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: August 13, 2011, 02:06:27 am
content: Returning to the topicAs the name suggests the KW hour meter measures KW only the wattless or reactive component is not measuredThe utilities place limits to the Lavel of reactive component i.e power factor cannot be less than say .8 as line losses go up and Watts remain the same , as far as i know everybody pays for KW used not VA or KVA (apparent Power) used hope this helpsjust to explain a little further. for the same KW being charged a load operating at .7 PF vs .9PF, .7 pf draw more line current resulting in greater transmission losses but the utility only recovers the KW True Power cost of the supply hope this clears it upregards

author: johnmx
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 08, 2015, 02:18:08 pm
content: In Portugal all domestic electronic energy meters have enabled by default an antifraud system called “Always positive registration”. So the meter counter increases independently of the direction of the current flow.This got me thinking: what happens to the reactive energy that is returned to the grid, does it count as consumed energy?I think the answer is YES!