FLIR Boson 320 or Therm-App Hz - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: TooQik
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 21, 2019, 11:03:43 am
content: Hi all,I'm currently looking to buy a thermal camera and am trying to weigh up the pros and cons between the FLIR Boson 320 Full Frame Rate Professional Version (<50mK NEDT) and the Therm-App Hz.On paper the Therm-App Hz wins in thermal array size, thermal sensitivity, price and lens changeability, while the Boson wins on frame rate, thermal range and expandability.For anyone with experience with either, or both, of these cameras, which camera would you choose and why?Thanks in advance.

author: Bill W
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 21, 2019, 02:30:23 pm
content: These are quite different products, so I think that your plans for interfacing is the most relevant question.ThermApp is a good sensor on a phone-attach head, it is a finished end product once you provide the phone.Boson is a good sensor in a camera core for a system rather than a finished end product. It does plug into a PC, or there are various output adaptor PCB's.Temperature readout on the Boson costs more.Not all Boson have the same dynamic range, although all are over the 90°C quoted of Therm-App.All Boson go to black when looking at hot objects over their temperature limit, don't know about Therm-App's.Bill

author: TooQik
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 22, 2019, 09:17:51 am
content: Thanks Bill, appreciate the feedback.One of the attractions of the Boson, as you've pointed out, is the fact it's a core rather than a completed product, this gives me some flexibility in usage, particularly interfacing. Obviously this comes with extra cost if I decide I want to use a different interface.I'm aware that both the Professional and Industrial versions have a low and high gain temperature mode which the Consumer version lacks, is this what you're referring to when you say the temperature readout on the Boson costs more? Or are you referring to something else entirely?This world of thermal imaging is new to me, so I'll be doing lots of research before I make any decision on which direction I take.

author: Ultrapurple
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 22, 2019, 03:48:22 pm
content: I agree with the comments Bill made.Quote from: Bill W on January 21, 2019, 02:30:23 pmThe Therm-App cameras generally continue to work OK when looking at very hot objects - for example, the element in the fan heater.If you show the Therm-App a large area that's very very hot then the hottest areas become streaky:or if there are small-ish areas that are much hotter than the average scene it will peak out, just like a bright spot in a photo, but that's a software thing not an intrinsic sensor issue:Finally, if you keep it pointed at a very very hot thing (eg filming the inside of a toaster for several minutes) then the relevant parts of the sensor actually heat up and for a while you'll get a ghostly reminder of what you were looking at.

author: frenky
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 22, 2019, 07:35:23 pm
content: I took a photo of almost identical heater as Ultrapurple, but with TE Q1+:Android app produces pretty bad images due to strong jpg compression, but with export to csv you can get some nice images...Left from android app, right from exported csv (and upscaled with waifu2x):

author: Vipitis
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 22, 2019, 11:21:50 pm
content: That is a really big difference in image quality, is the whole process possible to do directly on the phone?

author: frenky
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 23, 2019, 07:21:01 am
content: Sadly no.A while ago I made a test android application for Q1 but it does not work any more (no sure why).With custom android app it would be possible to export in 384x288 png or tiff format which would improve image quality greatly.It would probably be easier to make android app which converts from csv files to png files on the phone.But I have a very limited knowledge of android development so that would take me a lot of time which I do not have...EDIT:I have just noticed that I posted my photos in a wrong thread. I wanted to post it in "Thermal Expert Q1, Xtherm T3s, Thermapp Basic" in which OP is actually considering TE Q1.I apologise for off-topic in this thread.

author: TooQik
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 23, 2019, 08:01:28 am
content: Not a problem frenky. Very nice picture btw, is export to csv something particular to the Thermal Expert cameras? Or is this something most thermal cameras do?Thanks for the clarification and further information regarding the Therm-App Hz Ultrapurple.

author: Ultrapurple
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 23, 2019, 10:07:21 am
content: I only have relevant experience of the Therm-App cameras. Some of the driver software can produce CSV (or similar) outputs. ThermViewer certainly can; I am pretty sure ThermApp Plus can too, but the 'stock' app that comes with the camera does not have the facility. Several output formats are selectable in the first two apps, ranging from absolute temperature 16-bit TIFF through to radiometric data compatible with things like FLIR software and IRT Cronista.

author: TooQik
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 14, 2019, 10:21:12 am
content: Well, after looking around at various options at all price points, I decided that I'd purchase a TE-M1 instead of a FLIR Boson given that it's my first thermal camera.I figured I should probably start small and get a proper feel before I invest too much money on what will essentially be a toy for me.Looking forward to getting hold of it and to start tinkering.

author: frenky
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 15, 2019, 08:14:51 am
content: Smart choice. Especially if somebody finds a way to unlock firmware to full 384x288...I am willing to help because I have TE Q1+.

author: Vipitis
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2019, 10:48:02 am
content: Revive this thread:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/thermal-imaging/is-the-te-m1-a-software-downgraded-te-q1/I am close to buying a M1 myself.

author: TooQik
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2019, 12:36:10 pm
content: Quote from: Vipitis on March 15, 2019, 10:48:02 amThis thread is one of the main reasons I decided to go with the TE-M1 as my first thermal camera, so many thanks for pointing me to the link.Quote from: frenky on March 15, 2019, 08:14:51 amFingers crossed there's a way to increase the resolution , would make for a bargain 384x288 full frame rate camera.Appreciate the offer of help. I'm not unfamiliar with coding, so will be taking a good look at what I can possibly achieve myself.

author: guazan
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2019, 06:50:23 am
content: TooQik you could put some photos made with the TE-M1 thanks

author: TooQik
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2019, 07:35:06 am
content: Sure, as soon as I receive it I'll post some pictures and videos taken with it. Not sure how long the freight will take though, so it might be another week or so before I'm able to put anything up.

author: guazan
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2019, 09:47:42 am
content: OK thanks.

author: TooQik
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2019, 01:20:04 pm
content: Well, I received my TE-M1 today, after Australia Post finally decided to deliver it to the correct address.Here's a few quick pictures of my modem taken from the Thermal Expert Android app installed on a Samsung Galaxy Tab A:There's probably a multitude of things I can improve on to get better images, so any advise will be greatly appreciated.I am performing a calibration each time I turn on the imager, this has helped reduce the noise some what. One thing I have noticed, is that after performing the calibration I end up getting a message on the Galaxy saying the dead pixel map has been updated, this flashes up endlessly until I shut down the Thermal Expert application. Has anyone else struck this issue after doing a calibration with the latest Android software? I've copied the dead pixel file to my PC, is there any way to view this file to visually see what pixels are bad?I've also done a quick test of connecting the imager to my PC to view and capture an image. The PC application appears to work but I'm currently trying to get a longer USB-C cable to allow me to move the camera from behind the PC as it is not long enough to allow decent positioning. I did purchase an Alogic USB-C 1m extension cable but when trying to use this the camera fails to be recognised by my PC. If anyone has a recommendation of a USB-C extension cable that they know works, please let me know.I should also ask, what's the best way to link pictures on this forum? I've used TinyPic to host the images above, but am open to a better way.

author: frenky
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 29, 2019, 01:50:50 pm
content: Hi can you please enable saving CSV files in android app and attach the file into this thread.I would like to make my custom software comaptible with M1:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/thermal-imaging/i3-thermalexpert-custom-software/

author: Ultrapurple
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2019, 02:15:09 pm
content: It will also be interesting to know if the noise reduces with time.On Therm-App cameras, the image gets progressively less noisy over the first few minutes each time you use it, meaning that it's better to keep the camera turned on (and the app active) rather than keep switching it on and off. The difference is quite noticeable.My Therm-App Pro 640x480 also takes a few minutes to settle: it's far happier and more stable after it has had a chance to yawn, stretch and have its first coffee.Please let us know what you find. It's as simple as taking an image straight after switch-on (with or without calibration), leaving it going for five minutes, then taking the 'same' image again (with or without calibration as you choose).

author: guazan
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2019, 08:04:03 pm
content: Vielen Dank, dass Sie die Fotos so schnell einstellen, dass ich mehr Fotos und Videos von Ihrer Kamera sehen kann, da ich daran interessiert bin, sie zu kaufen.

author: TooQik
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2019, 05:26:36 am
content: Quote from: frenky on March 29, 2019, 01:50:50 pmHere's (hopefully) a CSV capture for you of me sitting at my PC.I tried your ThExBatch-0_2.exe with the CSV file I've attached, it converts the CSV file to PNG successfully but the resulting PNG is simply a black image.I also tried your ThexConvertGUI-0_3.exe with the same CSV file, it works as expected and saves a proper image in PNG format but given the smaller resolution of the M1 the image obviously doesn't fill the window.

author: TooQik
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2019, 06:20:39 am
content: Quote from: Ultrapurple on March 29, 2019, 02:15:09 pmI've taken a series of images over 30 minutes to see how on time affects image noise. I didn't perform a calibration at any stage, I simple left the camera on and captured another image after the elapsed time.I should note that I'm using my Windows 10 PC instead of the Android device for all of these captures, as I was having issues with the Android and I'm a PC guy anyway.I found that the USB-C extension cable I purchased didn't work with either the Galaxy or the PC, so I ended up buying a USB-C socket to USB 3 plug adapter; it works a treat on my PC over USB 2.0 (haven't tried either USB 3.0 or 3.1 yet.)

author: Ultrapurple
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2019, 03:37:29 pm
content: @TooQikThanks for doing this. I think it's clear that there is a distinct warm-up period: the +5 minute image is less noisy than the 0 minute capture. It's hard to see much difference with the other images - the JPG compression masks a lot o the fine detail.But I think you've proved that a warm-up period of a few minutesisbeneficial.

author: TooQik
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2019, 10:45:33 pm
content: @UltrapurpleMy pleasure! Doing this kind of exercise helps me get a better understanding of how it all works, while at the same time offers others some insight as well.There is definitely a visible difference after 5 minutes, so I'll be making sure I wait before starting image captures.Regarding the JPG compression, I also tried comparing PNG captures against the JPG captures - there didn't seem to be much difference in noise between the two formats. I might use Frenky's ThexConvertGUI application and convert some of the CSV files to PNG and see what the results look like with the warm up time.If there are any other tests you, or anyone else here, want me to try, please let me know and I'll do my best to accommodate.

author: Ultrapurple
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2019, 11:19:19 pm
content: Thanks again. The only other test that comes to mind is to see whether the camera "stays warm", in other words, does the noise level remain low after about a minute of power-off?Easy to do. From cold, take your 0 min reference image, then a 5 or 10 min sample image. Turn the camera off for a minute or so then restart it and take another 0 min sample.From memory, Therm-App cameras tend to reset to 'cold' condition quite quickly. I don't know why.

author: TooQik
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2019, 12:28:56 am
content: Warm down test images with no calibration done at any stage.

author: TooQik
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2019, 12:33:26 am
content: Here's some more warm up images which I've converted from CSV to PNG using Frenky's ThexConverterGUI application - big thanks to you Frenky for providing this along with the source code (I made a quick modification to suit the M1 resolution).

author: TooQik
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2019, 01:15:57 am
content: I've noticed there's a lot of horizontal banding when I view the live stream and I obviously see this when I capture video. I've attached a gif showing the banding which I captured with the lens cover on.Is anyone able to comment on whether this is normal please?

author: Vipitis
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2019, 04:53:53 am
content: I wanted to ask about video performance. You got the 30hz version, right? Are you able to record at 30hz with your phone or attached to a computer?

author: TooQik
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2019, 08:07:41 am
content: Hi Vipitis,Yes, the M1 I have is the 30Hz version.I've tried video capture on both a Samsung Galaxy Tab A and my PC, which is a Ryzen 7 1700. On the PC it captures the full 30 fps without an issue. On the Galaxy the captures that I've done have only reached just over 9 fps, so the host processor seems to have a great deal to do with the capture rate.Once I work out where to post some videos I'll put a link up here. I tried attaching a video previously for my banding question, only to find out that there aren't any supported video formats that are postable, hence the gif.

author: guazan
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2019, 08:44:54 am
content: good TooQik the camera you bought on your official page? if it were that you had to tell the seller to tell him that you wanted the 30hz version. Or is it because the model TE-M1 USB C? and another question that the price of 30hz has, thanks for your help.

author: TooQik
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2019, 11:34:16 am
content: Hi guazan,I bought my camera from the Thermal Expert European distributor. I simple sent them an email asking for pricing on the particular model I wanted with the specific options ie. TE-M1 with 6.8mm lens, 30Hz version and USB-C connector.I also bought the accessory kit, so all up to cost me approximately $775 AUD landed in Australia.