Dumbest security camera feature ever? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: TerraHertz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2015, 03:44:51 pm
content: So, the old outside security camera at my mum's house had a weather seal fail.The system had been unused for a while, hence how it came to be so corroded as opposed to just corroding a little bit before the camera noticeably failed.Rather than hunt around for the cheapest possible one from China (and wait weeks) I went and bought a replacement from a security systems shop. (The mounting base plate is removed in this pic.) Seems nice. I bench tested it, 12V in and video out, it gives a great picture.It's a much better designed case for weather sealing than the old one, but I added some extra protection anyway. Old fashioned water pump grease in all the case penetrations, threads and seals.It sits up on a pole on the roof, for a view of the garden and a fish pond that some neighbor lunatic has now and then vandalized in the past. For this use it has to be a day/night type, with IR flood.After lugging all the needed gear up on the roof, began what was expected to be a quick install. The old PAL monitor was intended for setting up the camera zoom & focus. They interact, and incremental adjustment with a ladder in the loop is a pain. That plastic molding at the cable fork doesn't fit through the conduit mounting, so I'd planned to just cut it off and do a cable splice. Power first, then video temporarily to the monitor, then splicing the video too.I was just about to cut the 'fork' off, when I noticed... what? How come this thing has a button on it? Oh, don't tell me...The leaflet is a single sheet of paper, folded in half. I'd given the outside a very quick skim in the shop, and that seemed all fine. Now I opened it up.The surprise inside:Sure enough. This bloody thing has a series of multiple on-screen configuration menus. What's the bet if I just cut this 'control unit' off, later I'll find some of those config menus need to be used? Arrrgh!What were they thinking? It's a security camera. Should have just power in and video out. In all applications it's definitely going to be mounted high up somewhere. It will have a cable to the recorder unit somewhere else. The mounting will be on a wall or something, and there's no way this plastic bit with the button control can be fitted in the camera mounting. So, once the camera is installed, pointed, etc, how is anyone supposed to get at this control button? Yet if it's to be used at all, it will need to be used after the camera is mounted.This is one of the stupidest, most poorly thought out products I've seen for a long time. The designers seriously didn't think it through.I'm going to be having some words with the shop sales guy tomorrow, since I did mention this would be going on a pole up on a roof. Unfortunately I already mounted the baseplate to the pole, including silastic on the foam 'weather seal', so a return & refund is unlikely.As the mounting is now there's absolutely no space for the control part. So either I add a small weatherproof box on the back of the pole, or the control thing HAS to be cut off, and some means provided to reconnect it if needed.Alternatively, it might be possible to run another cable back to the recorder inside the house, and wire the control thing there. If it works over that cable length.What a pain.

author: Richard Crowley
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2015, 03:52:55 pm
content: Is it dumb to include lots of features that allow you to optimize the camera for a particular installation? Most of us would say no.Is it dumb to not notice that there is a 5-way switch and menu instructions before you get up on the roof? I will let you answer that.Is it dumb to put the switch in that particular place in an otherwise weather-tight product? I would agree with that.

author: TerraHertz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2015, 04:20:59 pm
content: Quote from: Richard Crowley on June 22, 2015, 03:52:55 pmMaaaaybe. But how many hundreds of those cable-fork moldings have you seen, and do you examine each one in case it has special features? No, I bet you don't. Neither did I. It's just not something you expect.Especially since you'd also expect if a security camera is going to have any electronic adjustments at all, they'd better be accessible from where ever the central control system is. An extra connector or something.Some mention in the 'installation' part of the leaflet might have been nice too. I did read that in the shop. Yep, standard camera...QuoteBeyond dumb. Do you see? How the hell is anyone supposed to mount the camera then use the menus? By that time the cables (and control thing) are in the wall cavity or whatever.

author: Richard Crowley
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2015, 04:39:27 pm
content: Perhaps since you don't work in the security industry you are not up to speed on modern technology. It costs almost nothing (except software development) to add all those features to a modern digital camera. And it increases the benefits to the end users to optimize the settings.I have been in exactly the same situation although with a "bare board" version, not a weather-tight enclosed model. I added a little "header" on the cable to accommodate the programming switch when needed. Perhaps you could add that inside the weather enclosure? Or you could just ignore the wires when splicing if you are OK with the default settings. Or you could add a weather-tight single-gang junction box to accommodate the programming switch and protect your splice at the same time.

author: electr_peter
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 22, 2015, 05:34:46 pm
content: I bet that newer camera is 95% identical to this onehttp://www.ebay.com/itm/181472387820.Such cameras are used in RC FPV world. Buttons can be connected either directly via five wires or via resistor network (one wire only + power/GND). These buttons are supposed to be used only when setting up camera, they are removed later.Is that button feature dumb? I would say almost, but not quite. Somebody (ahem) just forgot to check all the cables and fittings for size and match before final installation, thus problem arose.Does this feature poses a risk to incidentally bring up OSD screen on security camera in unreachable location? No, not really. OSD menu is designed to be off and turn off after some time, it is active only when specific button is pressed.

author: TerraHertz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2015, 06:40:30 pm
content: I think you're both missing the point. I know these features could be useful sometimes, and cost virtually nothing. It's the control implementation that's the issue.Oh and not the 'doesn't fit' either. That's just an _extra_ bit of charming, due to planning from the start to just cut the cable fork off. The mounting arrangement was from the original camera, which had no such issues.Ditto my not noticing there were any controls at all till on the roof.Point is:The camera needs to be mounted, before you can adjust the settings to suit the scene.But once it's mounted, in no normal circumstances can the control be accessed.The cable goes down the inside of the mount post, and mounting flange. (see the leaflet, it's removed in my pics.)So to mount the flange with camera attached, you've inevitably put the control thing out of reach.In my case I'm actually lucky, since I have access to the back of the post, and so only have to change it a bit to get at the control after mounting. But normally this would mount on a wall or ceiling, so the cable & control will be inside the wall. There's no escape from that.It's not like I'm unfamiliar with cameras that have a pile of options. Or OSDs. Not expecting either this time was a result of seeing nothing on the box or leaflet(outside) that suggested it had them. I suspect maybe they didn't advertise them much, since customers would immediately want to know how they're accessed, see the cable dongle thing, and go "What?! That won't work!" and not buy. That would have been my reaction.Edit: Ah ha. Solution. A hand-wired board inside the back of the aluminum weather case, with 5 reed relays. Use a small magnet to operate them.

author: helius
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2015, 07:18:02 pm
content: I myself am somewhat baffled that such devices are still sold. Digital cameras with PoE have been available for a long time now, and can use a single cat5 for power, video signal, and control, where the controller can be a web browser anywhere in the world.

author: Ian.M
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2015, 07:43:33 pm
content: Its not a bad idea from the point of view of providing remote menu access on an analog output camera, if its implemented robustly (e.g. 20mA loop to the buttons) but the specific implementation on your camera is certainly dumb, as is the short hard-wired pigtail (unless that's actually a cunning plan to block most warranty returns).

author: ignator
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2015, 08:54:58 pm
content: I too find this OSD controller switch (at the camera) to be stupid. One solution is to purchase a LCD monitor that will wire directly into the BNC harness. Then you can mess with the settings while up on the roof.The other is to just ignore the remote switch, and purchase one of these to control this at the DVR.http://www.ebay.com/itm/UTC-Controller-OSD-for-Sony-Effio-E-IMX-238-CMOS-CCTV-BNC-Security-Menu-Camera-/251996186491?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3aac24a77bSorry for a USA eBay link. I purchase one of these last year for less then $10US.I found the instructions are real poor, and incomplete with all the functions that can be muttled with.

author: TerraHertz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2015, 05:51:09 am
content: Quote from: helius on June 22, 2015, 07:18:02 pmBecause the requirement is for a box & system that just works, recording timestamped images in a loop so long as power is supplied.Involving full function PCs, routers, etc, is just asking for extra config, downtime and operational issues.Also, 86 year old mother. Exposed complexity is out of the question.

author: Muttley Snickers
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 23, 2015, 06:56:48 am
content: Greeting's TerraHertz,I assume that the camera is has zoom lens and not fixed focal length, if it is then just check that on a power restart that it returns to the position you have set, if it is say 3.6 to 12 on startup it may stay at 3.6, some shitty cameras do this and don't recall the preset location. Also on the remote control side generally the control pair is completely separate from the power and composite video and will use a number of resistors in a voltage divider style configuration back through the switches to ground, I would tap off internally if required.The same pair would be used on a model that has RS- 232/ 485 for other telemetry protocols such as Pelco P/D, Samsung, Panasonic, Bosch etc, up the coax is completely different. If you need a picture of the standard divider configuration just ask and I will post it, I would pull the thing apart and meter it on the control lines to ensure the switch is dry contact.Also your specs indicate 9 to 22mm, 9mm wont give you a very wide field of view, it should be ok as it looks like a high roof, I use silicone grease for seals and O rings as per manufacturers recommendations and Castrol boating grease for exposed hardware, sometimes we will add sacrificial anodes to housings or expensive domes, I get these from Whitworths Chandlers.Muttley

author: kingofkya
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2015, 07:08:41 am
content: Just for perspective on older pure analog cameras it had jumpers on it for various setting and you carried a small 5-7 inch lcd, and did the adjustment on the camera so this dosen't seam far fetched. Its a stationary camera so it should not need to be adjusted again.I get the point though kinda a stupid place to put it especially with water ingress potential from the button/switch.And i would bet older guys used small black and white portable crts.

author: TerraHertz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2015, 12:15:45 pm
content: Quote from: Muttley Snickers on June 23, 2015, 06:56:48 amThe zoom lens adjustment is mechanical - those two thumbscrews on the bottom of the case. They link up with gears to turn the lens rings. In one of my pics I had the thumbscrew pulled out while greasing the shaft.QuoteYes, it doesn't need a wide field of view.I've decided to go the lazy way, and just mount a weatherproof box on the back of the pole. Then I can use the camera adjuster and plugs without modification. As well as easily connecting a monitor to the camera BNC whenever needed.There's little point extending the control interface by cable into the house, since none of the adjustments are likely to ever be needed after initial setup. (Assuming it never forgets settings.)Quote from: kingofkya on June 23, 2015, 07:08:41 amHeh. Smallcolourportable crt TV with video in, thank you very much. See pic 4 in original post.

author: Muttley Snickers
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 23, 2015, 12:27:50 pm
content: Most nowadays after initial config are set and forget, it's always the one that was hardest to get to and needed a dedicated scaffold or scissor lift that plays up. Cover the lens and give it some Baygon particularly under the sun shield, IR's are a big magnet for cobwebs. Rainex on the glass also works wonders.Muttley

author: BillyD
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2015, 12:52:53 pm
content: Quote from: TerraHertz on June 23, 2015, 12:15:45 pmI have a couple of those at our house and ended up doing the same, but luckily it wasn't too difficult to squeeze the little switch into the same enclosure as the 2 coax connectors. Our dvr is network accessible and you can view the cameras through your smartphone and after a quick stab at using this control I concluded it was completely unstable and unpredictable. It was only later I remembered that on my system there is typically an 8 to 10 second delay between camera and smartphone screen, so it's not really the right tool for this job!Mutley is right about the spiders. With the IR leds and camera being integrated, it only takes a few strands of web to wash out the whole image in nighttime mode. And occasionally you'll see some very startling shots of giant white spider filling up the whole field of view.

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2015, 12:09:23 am
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on June 23, 2015, 02:19:54 pmYes it will be fine for that. The internal SD is a really nice feature, no need for external NVR.I would go wired if its possible, wireless is not very reliable in my experience (since it appears to have both can always switch).To get a good branded model (hikvision) the picture quality will be noticeably better, the software is far more complex. But it will cost about twice as much.

author: BillyD
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2015, 11:30:43 am
content: It's not rock bottom cheap and cheerful, but approaching that end of the scale. It would probably do the job.The main weaknesses would be* weather proofing. Those leads and connectors are very short so these will need to be indoors or in a weatherproof enclosure.* I think that mounting bracket is partly plastic so it will be hard to mount it firmly. And the bits which are metal will rust before long!* night vision might be poor or washed out

author: TerraHertz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2015, 01:26:50 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on June 23, 2015, 02:19:54 pmThings to bear in mind:- The weather cover projection makes a nice shelter for spiders, who also seem to love the IR LED heating at night. One spider on a web in front of the LEDs and camera results in a VERY bright blurry image of a spider and nothing else.So you should mount it somewhere you can reach it with a web-cleaning brush. Also regular applications of insect surface spray help, but you will need to wipe the camera glass port after.- By 'weatherproof' they mean 'for a while'. There's a very thin O-ring around the main case screw joint, and this will perish and break. That's what happened to the original camera in my first pic. Grease in the threads would be a good idea. Same with any other penetrations.- Ants, potter wasps, etc seem to like connectors in wall cavities. In situations like that a free solution is to wrap the connection bundle tightly in an old plastic shopping bag, then tape the ends around the cables.

author: BradC
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2015, 02:57:26 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on June 25, 2015, 02:31:17 pmI was waiting for someone to bring those up. The Hikvision "pigface" cameras, aside from being generic cheap *cough* have the advantage of a completely separate IR section to the imager and thus not generally bothered by the odd cobweb. I don't really like them as they tend to have some firmware "issues", but for cheap IP cameras they actually do a credible job. After a few years of QA reform, they finally also do better than 3% failure rate out of the box.If you are going to buy cheap *cough*, then Hikvision are the ones to buy currently.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2015, 04:00:14 pm
content: Note with a wired connection outdoors you __**WILL**__ need to have lightning earths at both the camera and the indoor end, a straight run down of copper cable to an earth rod driven into the ground at the least. If not you will be replacing both camera's and indoor DVR units after every thunderstorm that is within 50km of your house.Lost the first, and then did the grounding ( using the house supply ground for the indoor side, as it was the other side of the wall) and the second has survived hits that took out the phone lines and ADSL router ( he was gaming and did not listen, so paid the price) while the cameras still recorded.