Microsoft changing Windows 7 and 8.1 updates to all or nothing. - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: rdl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2016, 09:21:41 pm
content: https://blogs.technet.microsoft.com/windowsitpro/2016/08/15/further-simplifying-servicing-model-for-windows-7-and-windows-8-1/Looks like Windows 7 and 8.1 users will be forced into basically the same type of update system as Windows 10 except it's not mandatory. No pick and choose however, and no "security only".

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 12, 2016, 01:14:32 am
content: If you read the notes, this seems like a good idea - but what worries me is the stuff they will push onto your machine that you just don't want.I have already caught the 'pre-selected' Win 10 update - and if I don't have a choice any more, I'm half expecting it to turn up one day and then I'll have to deal with it.I already have enough hassles with my workflow when I moved to Win 7. A piece of critical software wouldn't run (even though the update advisor didn't flag it) and I had to run the XPmode VM in order to continue working. Last thing I need is to have Win 10 rock up unannounced. The hardware and software combo I have works just fine for the job I'm doing. It does notneedan update. Occasionally I will check out what's available to seeifit can be replaced with more current stuff and I have yet to find anything that offers the same or better workflow than I have now - but I do admit to limiting my search to a setup that is less than5 times the budget I could affordfor such a move.Trust Microsoft?Now there's a paradox.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 12, 2016, 01:51:23 am
content: What on earth is going on at Microsoft? They have been progressively going down hill with every stupid decision. A change of middle management perhaps? In the long run, it'll bite them on the ass. I already know of several government departments who are currently trailing operating systems and office packages, other than Microsoft (Android is currently a serious contender for desktop replacement).This is also the reason I keep all "offline" install files for all drivers and OS updates on my NAS. Because you can't always rely on them to be on the internet when you want them to be.

author: Red Squirrel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2016, 04:01:04 am
content: Yikes. I switched to Linux a while back but still have a win7 machine for gaming. I disabled the updates when I heard about how hard they were trying to push 10. It looks like I'll be leaving it like that.

author: Wilksey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2016, 09:40:45 am
content: It's not that bad if you read the notices, Windows will never die, too much and too many rely on it, even older versions.I have one remaining Windows 7 laptop which I have turned off all updates and it works fine, I have a few now Windows 10, turned off all of the spyware and installed a few apps and I have to say it is very fast and just works (hasn't crashed or given me any gyp yet).I have Linux machines too, but sometimes you just need Windows, yes I could "emulate" but I don't want to.

author: JPortici
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2016, 11:33:09 am
content: Quote from: rdl on October 11, 2016, 09:21:41 pmGood. i don't update at all. *maybe* service packsI started having pretty much no problems with my PCs when i got rid of all anti-virus crap and kept only a basic firewall and adblock.

author: Jeff_Birt
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2016, 12:55:03 pm
content: Ok, lets suppose you guys develop a smallish but popular application that has about 2,000 different files. You release updates on a regular bases that are both bug fixes and provide additional features. You do a lot of testing on the update packages you release against different OS versions, different PC hardware, etc. When you release an update you have a high level of confidence that new files and old file, all 2,000 of them will all work well together.Then you get some user, let's call him Alec S., who say, "Hey, I don't want to be FORCED into update X, but I want update Y." How do you propose you then test every possible combination of files of different versions to make sure they all work well together? You don't have just 2,000 files to worry about now you have every version of those 2,000 files that have ever been released.Oh, and don't forget that your great little application also allows for plug-ins. How do the plug-in writers know what versions of those 2,000 files Alec decides he wants to use? How do you write a plug-in that will work on every possible version of every possible file? How do you make sure that every plug-in ever written will work with every possible file?How does Alec S. know what the ramifications are of using updated file X but not updated file Y? He can't, he does not have enough information to know. Since you wrote the application you are in the best position to make sure any updates work well together. You may not do a perfect job but the end users and plug-in writers are best served by installing all updates as it gives them the best tested system with the greatest likelihood of things working correctly.Or, think of this in a different context. Let's say GM has a recall to replace some steering components on a certain model of car. They are replacing the steering rack and associated links. Alec S. being a self appointed ace shade tree mechanic says, "I don't want the drivers side linkage replaced!" GM, would tell him to go pound sand as all the new parts were designed as a system and you can't mix the old parts and new parts.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2016, 12:57:27 pm
content: "who say, "Hey, I don't want to be FORCED into update X, but I want update Y." How do you propose you then test every possible combination of files of different versions to make sure they all work well together? "Dependency?

author: rrinker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2016, 01:03:25 pm
content: Before you all get your knickers in a bunch, yes, there IS a security updates only path you can take. You do not need to install any of the other updates. The full update path includes security updates.

author: BradC
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2016, 01:12:17 pm
content: Quote from: Jeff_Birt on October 12, 2016, 12:55:03 pmWhich is fine as long as GM is only replacing the steering components. The problem with the bundled MS updates is they are not doing recalls just to fix stuff, they're also disabling cylinders, changing the mixture and replacing the seats, dashboard & entire interior at the same time without giving you an option. "Want the steering fixed so it doesn't kill you? Fine, but you have to change your interior to kermit green at the same time, alter the engine performance and take a hit in fuel economy. It's one in, all in".*That* is the problem people are complaining about.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 12, 2016, 01:18:07 pm
content: It's heading towards the Apple mentality ....Weknow best, so you just sit back and trust us.

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2016, 01:30:36 pm
content: MS managed to screw up several updates quite badly in the last few years. Have they learned anything from that? I don't think so, they make it even more worse. Recently we had the nice boot-loop caused by something in the Win10 update package. You can't simply remove that single "fix", you have to take the complete package.

author: rdl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2016, 01:57:23 pm
content: Quote from: BradC on October 12, 2016, 01:12:17 pmOr maybe they also change it to use only expensive GM brand fuel, so you always get the "Best Driving Experience".

author: AntiProtonBoy
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2016, 02:00:30 pm
content: So MS collate discrete patches into a monthly rollup model. I'm not sure what's the big deal, to be honest. Not that much different from service packs (which I didn't mind).

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2016, 02:14:20 pm
content: I REALLY, REALLY love Microsoft.I hope they bring out some new products.A self driving car, I won't even have to tell it where I want to drive to. It will just drive me (to where it/Microsoft wants).A Microsoft TV. I don't need a remote control with it, it/Microsoft can choose the channels for me. Usually/always the Microsoft advertising channel, GREAT!!A new Microsoft Bank Account. I never need to write any cheques or do anything with it (except pay money into it). Microsoft will control its spending/transfers for me. GREAT!!Microsoft controlling all the updates to my Windows computer(s). GREAT!!What could possibly go wrong ?

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2016, 08:30:33 pm
content: Quote from: Brumby on October 12, 2016, 01:18:07 pmI would include Google on that list.

author: Kleinstein
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2016, 08:57:49 pm
content: I can understand MS. With so many patches and updates and everybody able to choose which of the updates to install you get hundreds (in theory way more possible) of variations to check for possible problems with new patches.Only for those update that really change features this could get a problem, especially with those updates that remove features. Sometimes the same thing can be a bug for some users and a feature for others.

author: bitslice
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2016, 09:05:14 pm
content: Well it's not as bad as Adobe trying to sucker you into installing McAfee bloatware at the same time as an update, that's deeply unethical.and God am I sick to death of updating that piece of **** every few weeks

author: Karel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2016, 09:31:40 pm
content: Quote from: bitslice on October 12, 2016, 09:05:14 pmI removed flashplayer more than a year ago and I don't miss anything.If a website requires flash, I simply don't visit it. How else do you think people with smartphones and tabletsuse the internet without flash?

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 13, 2016, 12:20:54 am
content: While this is a really stupid move, it is nowhere near the raping that is W10. There still seems to be a back door around this new asshole move from MS:http://www.ghacks.net/2016/10/12/microsoft-download-center-still-offering-windows-update-downloads/

author: jonovid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2016, 01:00:25 am
content: QuoteQuotewe that follow the signs of our times, all know this day would come, the time when conspiracy theories become conspiracy facts .when Microsoft moves to the dark side, and serves the US government more than it serves the people of the World.big brother is new in the code, and its not 1984. go figure , who's making stupid decisions now. b no surprises ifcommunity forums get used to look for independent thinking

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2016, 11:35:27 am
content: Quote from: Kleinstein on October 12, 2016, 08:57:49 pmAnother problem with rollup updates is that you have to take everything in the package. If MS decides to give me another "chance" of a free Win10, I can't simply skip that specific update without loosing all updates in the rollup. It's all or nothing

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 13, 2016, 02:48:19 pm
content: Quote from: madires on October 13, 2016, 11:35:27 amYes .... exactly.It would be nice if MS could be trusted to only provide updates for improved function and security. Updates that WILL NOT compromise the functionality of any software I run, hardware I use or workflows I have developed. A move to Win10 is an example of a fail here.... but I did sayIt would be nice.

author: suicidaleggroll
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2016, 03:12:51 pm
content: Quote from: Wilksey on October 12, 2016, 09:40:45 amHeh, good luck with that. Have you gone back and checked those spyware settings recently? They don't stick. Every few weeks (in my experience) MS rolls out a Win 10 update that reverts some/many of those spyware settings to on, without asking you, without telling you. The only way to keep the spyware off is to either unplug from the internet, or check and reset those settings by hand every single god damn day.

author: R005T3r
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2016, 04:22:15 pm
content: Quote from: Red Squirrel on October 12, 2016, 04:01:04 amYep did it too... And the surprising thing is that it works so well, that you don't have to put it online anyway, so no antivirus is required, no more time wasted to install third party open source programs.Now unfortunately I can't play anymore else: studying electronics full time!We are complaining about windows in general, what about the bloody Norton antivirus that you can't uninstall, you can't even shut it down! And, you need to download a program that uninstalls it for you! Not surprising that linux users are increasing: less problems and the computer do exactly what you say to do! Not to mention that windows is constantly spying on you...Also Android is spying on you, but it's not a problem if you desolder the GPS chip and you don't install apps from the store...

author: elgonzo
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 13, 2016, 05:25:34 pm
content: Quote from: R005T3r on October 13, 2016, 04:22:15 pmYou wait until the number of Linux users has increased enough, when Symantec will discover this as a new market for their products/services, and the whole cycle of Symantec screwing up computer installations starts anew......oh, no need to wait,it already happens

author: raptor1956
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2016, 10:22:49 pm
content: And what level of cooperation is M$ providing in giving various governments access to the back door? What level of government coercion is being applied to force back doors.Trust no one!Brian

author: Wilksey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2016, 09:34:34 am
content: Quote from: suicidaleggroll on October 13, 2016, 03:12:51 pmYup, still off, I turned update off also, I don't check it every day, so unless they turn it on and off again, it's not always connected to the internet either.Meh, different folks have different experiences, so far with Windows 10 all of mine are positive.

author: Syntax_Error
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2016, 02:55:16 pm
content: In general I have to agree, most of my experiences with it are positive enough. I have some small complaints about tiles and the start menu, things I cannot uninstall or make go away, and it does irritate me that the settings panel "resets" itself during certain updates. I can live with these things. There is one thing that drives me crazy and it's not even the spying, it's all the background downloading and processing going on all the freaking time. Drives me nuts!Mint 17.3 is my daily driver, as I'm not a Linux guru or a FOSS crusader, and it just works...for about 75% of my use cases. I went about 6mo without logging into Windows at all and survived just fine, but learned that I do prefer to use Windows-platform software for certain things, and as such, have been using it again.

author: Red Squirrel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2016, 06:40:59 pm
content: Quote from: raptor1956 on October 13, 2016, 10:22:49 pmYeah I would imagine companies like Microsoft, Google, Facebook etc are paid big bucks under the table by various government agencies to share info. It was proven to happen with Yahoo mail (but who uses that anymore lol).The one that scares me the most though is the backdoor in intel chips. It's hard, if impossible, to disable something running at that low of a level and it does not matter what OS or how many firewalls you have. It will use your network card or it's built in 3G radio directly. I feel more experts need to study this backdoor more and find ways to disable it. It might simply be the thing of cutting a certain pin on the cpu or something. Ex: that chip might have it's own power pin, so cutting power would disable it.