New Macbook Pro released - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Ampera
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 27, 2016, 07:26:06 pm
content: http://www.apple.com/macbook-pro/Hurry up and drop poor specs like a madman.I mean holy balls, for 2800 USD you get:2880x1800 16:10 Non 4K displayA quad core laptop i716 GB of DDR3512GB PCIe based SSDRadeon Pro 455 with 2GB of GDDR5Four USB-C ports with Thunderbolt 3 supportThe rest of the specs are pretty unimportant, 802.11 AC, etc etc.But for almost three grand, That's it?Really?http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?item=N82E16834154337Same bloody price, similar i7, but you now have 4k and a decent GPU, Granted you go from a 512GB SSD to 1TB HDD, but you can fix that yourself for around 100-150 USD.You can shift the specs around like get a slightly lesser GTX 1070, or even go previous gen for kickass specs, butWhat the hell? I don't get the logic behind this.EDIT: MSI might have been a poor example, I also found this, (copied from another post below for people to see)The MSI laptop was a quick and dirty example off Newegg.Take this laptop:http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=9SIA24G3UK2514Good battery life, a .2 KG (not much) weight boost, and better specs in every department, just with a 1080p screenAnd it's 400 dollars cheaper.And it has DDR4 memoryAnd it's got twice the VRAMAnd it's got an NVidia chip (go team green)And it's got a workstation grade Xeon in itAnd it's got etc.. etc...Did I mention it comes with a Windows 7 downgrade? Woo!And I found this after a 5 minutes of searching WITH this MSI one. I didn't feel the need to mention it at the moment, but here you go. I bet if you dig even deeper, go with different sites and price hunt for a couple hours, you could get something like that for a couple grand or so.

author: kripton2035
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 27, 2016, 07:55:33 pm
content: one is 4 kg, the other less than 2kg ... you want to carry it ?

author: RGB255_0_0
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 27, 2016, 08:05:15 pm
content: The best product released the past 2 days is the Surface Studio. But it seems $3K is the target price for these gadgets.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 27, 2016, 08:27:28 pm
content: IMO those heavy, thick and hot laptops are very niche products and not manysanepeople will find a good reason to carry such a thing daily. IMO if you do need such hardware, buy a desktop instead.QuoteGood luck going anywhere off-grid with that MSI.BTWI'm long time apple hater actually. But I see reasons why someone would buy those specs at such inflated price.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 27, 2016, 08:31:01 pm
content: and wanting 4K @ <=15" is insanity. Won't provide anything except additional GPU load.

author: JPortici
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 27, 2016, 08:41:48 pm
content: my 2 cents: specs are not everything, the most important thing they've added is thunderbolt 3 over usb C.and remember it's a god damn laptop.you need more ports? it's a laptop, not a desktop replacement. use a dock (or an external monitor with integrated dock. cone cable to connect them all)anyway, how long do you think the touch bar will last before burn in or failure? oled, constantly on with same image, directly over the main ventilation airflow. i give it six months, a year at most. samsung in store phones units wouldn't last more

author: setq
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 27, 2016, 08:56:17 pm
content: This is just an industry facepalm about to go down.Besides the fact my sweat is like Alien blood and dissolves MacBooks in a few months, the one I had that caught fire spectacularly, the bent crooked finger-printless hands you get from using the touchpad and the pile of incinerated lightning/USB cables, the sheer destruction that HFS+ brought down on an £80k contract I was in the middle of, and the perpetual crummy chiclet keyboard that fell to bits twice I wish Apple would remove this from the market immediately for one other reason:This is the start of the degeneration of a workstation class machine into a fondle grubby poke-fest greasy gunk magnet with the introduction of a touch screen on the keyboard. All the other manufacturers who sell business class and workstation class laptops, not overpriced starbucks wankfest shit will start going "me too" like the cult following personality they are and the next thing we'll have is funny shaped bendy thinkpads with keyboards made of shiny poo or something.It's all going to break and fuck up.Now the stalwart I am, I sold that 2010 inferno model of the MBP's burned corpse (for £200 on ebay what the hell were they thinking?) and bought a 2010 ThinkPad X201 which I'm STILL sitting in front of now, having just replaced the battery yesterday and nothing else. I still get 9 hours and I can still make more money in less time than I can with an MBP with a shiny touch doohickey with this old crate. And that's what matters. Not how pretty or whizzy it is.Edit: oh and the key combinations on MacOS are harder than Street Fighter special moves, and I use vim on a daily basis.

author: Ampera
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 27, 2016, 09:09:01 pm
content: The MSI laptop was a quick and dirty example off Newegg.Take this laptop:http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=9SIA24G3UK2514Good battery life, a .2 KG (not much) weight boost, and better specs in every department, just with a 1080p screenAnd it's 400 dollars cheaper.And it has DDR4 memoryAnd it's got twice the VRAMAnd it's got an NVidia chip (go team green)And it's got a workstation grade Xeon in itAnd it's got etc.. etc...Did I mention it comes with a Windows 7 downgrade? Woo!And I found this after a 5 minutes of searching WITH this MSI one. I didn't feel the need to mention it at the moment, but here you go. I bet if you dig even deeper, go with different sites and price hunt for a couple hours, you could get something like that for a couple grand or so.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 27, 2016, 10:00:38 pm
content: Quote from: TwoOfFive on October 27, 2016, 09:09:01 pmAnd it is not better at specs, actually worse.QuoteAnd what the point if that GPU is worse regardless of VRAM amount. It's on par with GTX 950M. EDIT: actually on par even with GTX 850M in my EUR 700, 2.2 KG acer laptop from 2014.QuoteAnd Apple has it tooQuoteBANG & OLUFSEN marketing gimmick. It's a good laptop, but really not a killer of that macbook pro, and actually sucks at that price.

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 27, 2016, 10:31:21 pm
content: MSI laptops are very poorly construced mechanically. Plastic is VERY thin and soft like paper, screen is not locked to the body when folded, other laptops have motherboard and screen attached to the casing, MSI has casing attached to motherboard and screen. It does not have rigidness at all, and is too delicate for carrying around. Also, just after 6 months the fan went loud, and the bloody replacement fan is 40 bucks on Alexpress, bloody hell freaking laptop fan. No more MSI thank you very much.

author: Ampera
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 27, 2016, 10:31:54 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on October 27, 2016, 10:00:38 pmAt the moment there doesn't seem to be any specs or benches for the Pro 455, but the laptop does have 4GB of VRAM.The Macbook doesn't have DDR4 memory, it has DDR3And I never mentioned the speakers, I could care less about them as long as the bleep out what one wants, but it has the same SSD, a better CPU, a GPU with twice the VRAM (No benching for the Radeon card, but it's a macbook so), and about 3/4ths the screen size.And the exact sample isn't the point. While it is comparable, there are better ones out there, I just found that one in five minutes on Newegg, and you could probably cut a few bucks off that using Amazon.The macbook pro is very unimpressive compared to what we already have.

author: mtdoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 27, 2016, 10:32:47 pm
content: IMHO this is a major fail. Steve is rolling in his grave.I say this as someone who considers himself neutral in the OS wars:I've been using both Macs and Windows machines for 30 years - both at home and work. My home currently has 4 Macs and 5 Windows (3 XP, 2 W7) boxes (and 1 Linux) in service.Previous MBPs had IMO a justified price premium based on build quality and ability to run OSX. Not this one.My daily use machines are a 9 year old MBP and the 3 yr old HPlaptop I'm typing this on. The W7 laptop is used for work and electronics hobby purposes while photos, home media etc is kept on the Mac.I'm ready to replace the Windows laptop already (and have one oftheseon the way now). But the 9 yr old MPB with RAM and SDD upgrades is still very usable - though I'll probably replace it with a previous gen MBP soon - that will last for another 10 years I suspect.Even the Mac fan websites/forums are mostly bashing this new MBP release. Even if Apple is mostly a phone/tablet company these days, they need to keep their computer business relevant IMO - otherwise they will wither..

author: Ampera
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 27, 2016, 10:33:14 pm
content: Quote from: Bud on October 27, 2016, 10:31:21 pmI've never used an MSI laptop, so I wouldn't know. There is a HP example a bit farther up that suits the bill. I looked for a laptop for five minutes and got a couple examples, the MSI one seemed neat so I choose that one first.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 27, 2016, 10:37:28 pm
content: Quote from: TwoOfFive on October 27, 2016, 10:31:54 pmAnd where you took this info from?

author: Ampera
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 27, 2016, 10:37:44 pm
content: Quote from: mtdoc on October 27, 2016, 10:32:47 pmTheir phones are pretty piss too. They are still dual core phones, just with a couple more bolted on as gimmicks. We already have 8 core Android phones that are pissing all over Apple. Their hardware isn't BAD, it's just woefully overpriced. There used to be a time where PCs were genuinely hard to use for most people, but once Windows 95 came along, that wavered, and at the point of XP, Apple had no leg to stand on in that department.I have an iMac G3 Summer 2000 DV+ model in sage colour I was given by a neighbor, and it's awesome. It's a great games machine, able to run most MacOS9 PPC games and 68k games, with a decent 3D accelerator, but now I would never buy a Mac, nor any current Apple device, The last thing I bought was a second hand iPhone 3G to slap Whited00r on.

author: Ampera
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 27, 2016, 10:39:05 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on October 27, 2016, 10:37:28 pmhttp://www.apple.com/macbook-pro/specs/Looking at the top of the range 15" model, we can see it saying DDR3 memory. Which brings into question the CPU, we currently don't know the exact CPU, but it has a chance of being a last gen i7.

author: RGB255_0_0
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 27, 2016, 10:43:12 pm
content: Skylake supports both DDR3 and 4but I'd rofl if it was Broadwell...Apple doesn't care for their laptop and desktop segments anymore. Just look at the Mac Pro.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 27, 2016, 10:45:13 pm
content: Quote from: TwoOfFive on October 27, 2016, 10:39:05 pmit also has:Quote

author: Ampera
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 27, 2016, 10:45:55 pm
content: Quote from: RGB255_0_0 on October 27, 2016, 10:43:12 pmI'm still rocking an i7-4790k. I got it because it was 300 dollars and the boards were using memory I already had and cheap. Not a bad processor though, gets the job done.

author: RGB255_0_0
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 27, 2016, 10:53:40 pm
content: Quote from: TwoOfFive on October 27, 2016, 10:45:55 pmDevil's Canyon was nice. Skylake is a pretty big increase in some areas.The thing is, for the money, you should expect top end, or near top end. DDR4 has been mainstream for over a year and in production for over 2 years.

author: senso
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 27, 2016, 11:16:44 pm
content: Quote from: Bud on October 27, 2016, 10:31:21 pmAnd what model MSI is that?Having seen and touched every MSI model as launched so far, and taken a couple dozens apart, that sounds like a gigantic load of FUD..You have warranty, use it, MSI will happily change your fan.In Europe MSI is honoring international warranty for 2 years, you can open your laptop, repaste it, change HDD/SSD's, WiFi cards, RAM's, and your warranty will not be void..Now, that MSI model is a bad example, thats more of a gamer/high perf laptop..You mention noise, I smell you had an old model GP60, that chassis was over used, and MSI had a problem where half the Foxconn made heatpipes where baddly soldered and almost all of the laptops would have one heatpipe broken from the finned part of the heatsink..What is the thing with a laptop i7 is BAD or if someone needs an i7 better get a desktop?I'm using a second hand Toshiba P50, after a repaste, a 480GB BX200 SSD and 16GB of DDR3L its a work-horse, it weights 2.44Kg and I find that its light, I wont break an arm if I need to carry a 4Kg laptop, my bag as way more than 4Kg inside it and I can happily carry it all day?For better examples, think Dell XPS's, its the only thing that comes close in specs/battery.Or  the Razer Blades, they are basically a Mac in black..There is also the more profissional oriented line of MSI, and some Zenbook's.The thing about battery duration is that almost only Apple makes a laptop with one single M.2 SSD and dedicate half the chassis to a battery..16GB of 2133MHz memory 2133Mhz is DDR4 for sure....

author: rrinker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 27, 2016, 11:44:39 pm
content: Those multi-core phones aren't all that. Android NEEDS more resources to run, I guess no one understands that. I have no issues with the mere 1Gb RAM in my 4th gen iPad, it works just fine. And those dual core Apple SOCs are out benchmarking those fancy power eating (and battery exploding?) 8 core ones - yes, they have 8 cores but they have 4 halfway decent ones and then 4 crappy ones that are supposed to increase battery life when the demand is low.Until someone comes up with a true new breakthrough, everyone's next model will be disappointing to those expecting the world every time there is a new version. Maybe instead of being disappointed, people will hang on to the older models since they work just fine - see again, 4th gen iPad and the iPhone 5S I am using. Zero issues, Zero reason to spend money and get the latest ones just to have the latest. There's no real massive changes because it seems everyone has run out of ideas, so we get incremental updates that really only appeals to that crowd who MUST have the latest and greatest, screw the price. Me, I keep using things I buy until they no longer work or cannot do the basic tasks I need them for.

author: senso
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 27, 2016, 11:56:03 pm
content: Dont even get me started on the pile of crap that is Android...I have an Xperia Z5(came from an Xperia M2), I love the design, the form factor and everything else about the Sony's, at least they have software updates, my M2 received Android 6.0, the Z5 will see 7.0 in the future..But Android is a fractured mess of millions of versions from each vendor, and the resource usage...The Z5 uses 1.5GB of RAM with zero extra programs installed, just the baseline OS, even my Win8.1 laptop uses less than that(at startup) with a ton of programs installed, not much crap in the startup, but none the less..

author: Ampera
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 28, 2016, 12:18:05 am
content: Quote from: rrinker on October 27, 2016, 11:44:39 pmAndroid is a strange case by case basis deal. First off you have 1 option for apps in iOS. One. You can't install external apps and if the app store doesn't have what you want, you are SooL. Android allows free installation of any apps you want in the form of APKs and is less slave driving than Apple in terms of app developers. This is not counting jailbreaking or rooting. Adding those for Apple you get a barely visible file system and the ability to actually RUN the apps you want.With a rooted Android system you can do LITERALLY whatever the hardware can do. You can install something other than Android altogether with minimal difficulty.Android can take up more resources, but it can also do a whole lot more like run emulators unrooted. Did I mention Mobdro? (look it up)And the 8 core thing is the same thing Apple does with their new chips, but that isn't what the ACTUAL 8 core chips do. Take the Pixel C with it's Tegra X1. It has 8 cores, and a 256 core Maxwell GPU.I do have to Admit, single and dual core performance is pretty good, but with an operating system that can't DO anything I want it to, why would I bother? And we also have to take into consideration the use of this power? When would you need power like that on a phone? There are few apps that can take advantage of that tech, and the ones that can, are on Android (Especially NVidia's proprietary offerings). iDevices are specs and no function. Sure they may bench harder, but they can't use it since they don't have worthwhile apps in my case anyways. The main things that will use the advanced power are games and emulators. Emulators are Android only (not counting jailbreak) and the most impressive games take home in the NVidia shield store.There is also the matter of custom roms that can cut the crap that Android has and give it snappier performance.

author: crispy_tofu
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 28, 2016, 02:04:02 am
content: No love for iPod nano, iPod touch, iPod shuffle, iPad, MacBook Air, MacBook, iMac, Mac Mini or the Mac Pro.

author: rfbroadband
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 28, 2016, 07:51:01 pm
content: which Windows Laptop would you guys recommend that roughly meets these specs- 15 inch- SSD configurable up to 1TB or 2TB- >=16GB RAM- max 1920 x 1220 resolution is more than ok for me- 802.11ac- can drive two ext. 5k displays + its built in display in parallel !- max 4lbs- height ~ 0.6in

author: janoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 28, 2016, 07:58:37 pm
content: > - can drive two ext. 5k displays + its built in display in parallel !Don't think you will find a mobile GPU capable of doing that. Even desktop ones will struggle. What do you need that capability for in a laptop? Are you carrying those external displays with you?The rest should be possible to satisfy e.g. with some Lenovo offerings.

author: RGB255_0_0
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 28, 2016, 08:07:58 pm
content: Quote from: janoc on October 28, 2016, 07:58:37 pmI think he's messing with you due to the MacBook's 4 ThunderBolt ports supporting DisplayPort 1.2. Although I'd find it strange that the AMD GPU would be able to interface with Intel's ThunderBolt with Eyefinity.Hmm.

author: rfbroadband
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 28, 2016, 08:11:44 pm
content: I need to carry a powerful laptop between two offices. (and no I don't have 2 5K monitors in each office, I wish...). I rarely use the laptop on the road, but when used in an office it needs to be a powerful machine.The new MacBook that everybody is hammering in this post appears to be able to drive 2 external 5K displays + plus the internal display, which I find quite impressive...

author: Ampera
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 28, 2016, 08:29:18 pm
content: Quote from: rfbroadband on October 28, 2016, 08:11:44 pmMy suggestion would be a Mini ITX desktop machine. You can check outthis where Linus builds a 22 core Xeon workstation in a container the size of a shoebox. This is something you can easily lug around with you.Driving displays isn't the issue for most graphics cards. A GTX 1080 would probably cut the mustard, maybe a Titan XP if you have the money to piss away. Of course you don't need a 22 core Xeon (unless you want one), I suggest the i7-4790k as it's a price to performance sweet spot for mid to mild workstation use.Laptops in my opinion are a small use scenario. A lot of their functions can be cloned with a good tablet and a slim keyboard while you use a Mini ITX based computer to move around. It's not battery powered, but you wouldn't be running it off battery in an office scenario anyways. The other advantage here is that you can upgrade every part as you go along on a need by need basis, so that's cool.Some ITX boards come with onboard 802.11 support, so you could find one that does that, or suffice with Ethernet (or just get a dongle).Best of luck.

author: RGB255_0_0
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 28, 2016, 09:16:30 pm
content: Quote from: rfbroadband on October 28, 2016, 08:11:44 pmJust to clarify, do you need to drive a single 5K and your laptop screen at the same time in 2 different locations, or drive 2 5K panels and your laptop at the same time in 1 location?I'm not too sure there are many "Windows" laptops that have 2 Thunderbolt 3 ports compliant with DisplayPort 1.2(a) but there are loads that have 1.So in that use case, the MacBook would be the better option and you can easily run Windows via Bootcamp/Parallels.

author: rfbroadband
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 28, 2016, 09:24:47 pm
content: 2 ext 5k displays at the same time in one location. Thanks

author: RGB255_0_0
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 28, 2016, 09:39:12 pm
content: Quote from: rfbroadband on October 28, 2016, 09:24:47 pmI found a Windows laptop with 1 TB and 1 DisplayPort 1.2 (http://shop.lenovo.com/gb/en/laptops/thinkpad/p-series/p50/) and the P70 with 2 TB3 and 1 DP 1.2 (http://shop.lenovo.com/gb/en/laptops/thinkpad/p-series/p70/)

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 28, 2016, 10:18:05 pm
content: Quote from: janoc on October 28, 2016, 07:58:37 pmGPUs havent been the bottleneck but the displayport/hdmi interface, you could run two external 4K monitors on theoriginal2013 onwards Macbook pro retina models along with the internal display but the external interfaces limited them to 30Hz. So apple never recommended anything higher than 2560x1600 as that could still run at the normal 60Hz.

author: rfbroadband
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 29, 2016, 02:56:18 am
content: Briefly compared "standard config" P50 vs MB Pro- Xeon E3, up to 3.7GHz. 8MB cache vs i7 up to 3.6GHz, 8MB cache- 16GB DDR4, 2.1GHz vs 16GB DDR3, 2.1GHz- 0.5 TB SSD vs 0.5TB SSD- ext monitor 1 (or 2?) x 4K UHD (3840 x 2160, ? Hz) vs 2 x 5k (5120 x 2880, 60Hz) or 4x 4K (4096 x 2304, 60Hz)- weight: 7.7lbs vs 4lbs- height: 1.0 inch vs 0.6inch- ~ 3000$ (from pound) vs 2799$any mistakes in that comparison (for that specific configuration)?

author: RGB255_0_0
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 29, 2016, 08:29:30 am
content: Quote from: rfbroadband on October 29, 2016, 02:56:18 amThe only display configurations I could find in Lenovo site were for the dock. I'd think you'd need to speak to an owner or someone technical at Lenovo to find out whether the Thunderbolt connections are parallel in the P70 or whether the DP and Thunderbolt share bandwidth on the P50.Xeon and normal I7, while similar, are not really comparable feature wise.Anyway, still seems the MacBook is your best option for that display config and just install Windows on it if needed.

author: RGB255_0_0
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 29, 2016, 09:27:51 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on October 29, 2016, 09:21:28 amThis may be a fair point. But this is something that can be resolved somewhat externally. The hardware compliance issue, however, cannot and you have to recommend the hardware that can get the job done.Having said that, is there information that the MBP late 2016candrive 2 5K panels as well as its own display?

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 29, 2016, 10:04:06 am
content: Quote from: RGB255_0_0 on October 29, 2016, 09:27:51 amIts right their in the specifications:Quote

author: RGB255_0_0
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 29, 2016, 10:14:36 am
content: There we goI was just being lazy

author: ChunkyPastaSauce
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 29, 2016, 10:55:50 am
content: Quote from: TwoOfFive on October 28, 2016, 08:29:18 pmBuilding a portable workstation using below. Few inches larger than an xbox. Form factor makes it good for carrying / has handle / can be slipped into a backpack or roller.

author: hans
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 29, 2016, 11:25:33 am
content: I think Apple has 2 problems with these Macbooks:- The hardware is not Pro enough.- The pricing is to steep.The 13" 'Pro' start at 1700 euro here, and with that you get a dual core U CPU, 8GB of RAM and no dedicated GPU. Sorry, but that's practically a "tablet+" these days. I personally think that Apple is trying to upsell devices in their naming scheme. IMO the iPad Pro shouldn't even be a thing. The current Macbook should be the Macbook air (which seems to get no love anymore), and the 13" macbook 'pro' is just a macbook.The 15" finally has some hardware to serve the 'pro' name, but other competitors offer so much stronger specs for a much lower price. And also they give you the choice of upgrading and connecting stuff to the device.I own a P50 notebook and am very happy with it.i7 quad core CPU16GB RAM standard, upgradable to 64GB in 4 slots(!!)Dedicated NVIDIA Quadro. OK; the M1000M is quite mediocre in performance.. but foranyGPU acceleration in light 3D work and games it's good enough. If you want the upmost GPU horsepower.. get a desktop. Don't expect that you can carry this in a backpack with a 15" formfactor just yet.. although the NVIDIA Pascal GPU's are coming much closer these days.I/O ports, thanks.90Wh battery. I never pack my charger for college. I only carry the laptop, few paper notebooks and pens. All college books or material in PDF. Battery easily lasts 8 hours in medium productivity, or over 10+ hours with little usage.Space for 3 disks; 2x M.2 and 1x 2.5". That's great so I don't throw the existing wicked-fast M.2 PCI-E SSD out, but rather extend it with more disks.And a dock. Click and done. All I/O connected. Dock has a 230W charger so italwayscharges the notebook. Ever had your phone do GPS+audio in your car while on a mediocre charger, and see it only charged it 15% after a 2-3 hour drive?Of course USB-C is coming close, you could carry USB-C level docks between machines, so that's great. But I think that stuff is still aimed for early adopters, it can still use some improvements and wider spread.The 15" Mac Pro is insanely priced here in Europe. Starting from 2700 EUR. I'm sorry, how much? This P50 is like 1500 EUR retail I believe, with that price gap you can build an additional desktop rig with i7 6700K, GTX1070 and 500GB SSD. I really don't see what justifies this price premium.The "innovating" touch bar is cool I guess. But I just wonder how it will cooperate with things like VM's and other OSes a power user might need to use. Where is the escape and my F keys? Do you need to connect a dedicated keyboard for that? If so.. that sucks.Personally also I think the Apple line of products is basically skewed due to the iPad pro, like I said. IMO that product is retarded. Productivity on a tablet, yeah right. If the iPad pro wouldn't exist, I would be the current "macbook" could have been the now seemingly deprecated line "Macbook air", and the 13" macbook could just have been 'The macbook'. That would make more sense.

author: Ice-Tea
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 29, 2016, 11:39:02 am
content: I get why Apple charges a premium over others, I'm typing this on a Toshiba S50 which looks a lot like an Apple product, which has the specs for a fraction of the price but the difference shows as soon as you pick it up: it flexes in your hands. When people just keep tossing specs back and forth this is what they forget: build quality. I'd be more than happy to shell a few hundred € for Apple quality but 1500€? Not so much...

author: rfbroadband
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 29, 2016, 04:16:42 pm
content: @hans:The 15" finally has some hardware to serve the 'pro' name, butother competitors offer so much stronger specs for a much lower price.could you please post a link to a technical spec webpage of laptop manufacturer for a specific laptop model so I can do a technical comparison?thanks

author: rfbroadband
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 29, 2016, 07:42:31 pm
content: so I contacted technical support of HP and Lenovo and asked them for a recommendation of a unit that comes close to these specs. Both said they don't have one. The P50 Lenovo comes closest, can drive 2 ext 4k monitors if thunderbolt and display ports are used. The HP can drive 2 ext monitors but only one at a resolution of 4k.When the HP and Lenovo units are configured to "similar" specs as the MBP, the results is- they are more expensive- heavier (1.5x to 2x)- thicker (almost 2x)- reg. driving ext. monitors ..the performance is a lot less than that of a MBP.So if anyone thinks I should have looked at a different unit or model or knows of a unit that has much better specs at a much lower price, please post a link and I will post a comparison for all to review.

author: Ampera
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 29, 2016, 08:25:52 pm
content: Quote from: rfbroadband on October 29, 2016, 07:42:31 pmI still stand by my suggestion of a shoebox computer. That computer could probably run two 5K displays, and for idle on the road work, I suggest an Android solution of some kind with a wireless keyboard (NVidia Shield Tablet K1 is good, only 200 bucks for the tablet).Laptops are rarely meant to be powerhouses. That is resigned to the desktop computers because getting all the workstation power one would ever need into a cool, slimline, battery powered design would be so overly difficult and expensive for the consumer, that neither the manufacturer nor the end user would want it. Mini ITX is the closest you can get to luggable workstation tech, but I am not surprised nobody has a laptop for your needs.

author: Ice-Tea
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 29, 2016, 08:25:58 pm
content: *Shrugs*i suppose you'll always have a bit of a mixed bag.A GS63VR 6RF Stealth Pro is a candidate. Better RAM, *much* better graphics, worse battery, better price,...

author: janoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 29, 2016, 08:33:21 pm
content: Quote from: RGB255_0_0 on October 28, 2016, 08:07:58 pmWell, if someone specs a machine that only one manufacturer can deliver that, then it is pointless trying to help them, indeed. Sorry, I made the assumption he is genuinely asking for help. Mea culpa ...

author: setq
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 29, 2016, 08:35:59 pm
content: What is everyone doing that needs such a powerful machine?

author: janoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 29, 2016, 08:38:06 pm
content: Quote from: ChunkyPastaSauce on October 29, 2016, 10:55:50 amLOL, I have actually built a portable demo machine for our HTC Vive HMD/VR setup at work into exactly that case, because we couldn't get a laptop that would work with the requirements of these things.It is a fairly nice case but the handle at the top is flimsy - carrying around a $2k computer using a handle held by 4 small self-tapping screws isnotvery assuring.

author: janoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 29, 2016, 08:46:23 pm
content: Quote from: setq on October 29, 2016, 08:35:59 pmIn the case of our company it is virtual reality - so we need the biggest GPU we can manage. We are doing a lot of demos on site for potential clients, so a portable machine is important.Laptops need not to apply, because most have the Optimus-like setup where the discrete GPU feeds its signal through the built-in Intel GPU and that isn't supported by the VR helmetsSomeone suggested AlienWare and Clevo earlier - please, don't. AlienWare is an overpriced kitchy mess that only a pimply teen would want to buy with their "cool" design, not something you can bring into a business meeting.And Clevo is the cheapest plasticky junk you could imagine. If you only plunk it on the table and never move it afterwards it will probably last for a while, but it will literally fall apart if you need it on the go every day. Even much more robust laptops have issues with such use and start to break and creak after a while.Also these "gamer laptops" are enormous, power hungry bricks, in that case I can as well lug around one of those mini-ITX desktop machines. And those are at least repairable/upgradable, unlike the laptops.

author: hans
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 29, 2016, 08:57:49 pm
content: Quote from: rfbroadband on October 29, 2016, 04:16:42 pmFor the options you named earlier, I can think of 2 options:"The New" Razer Blade Stealth + Razer Core. A NVIDIA GTX1060+ can drive 5K displays if you really need that.Can't check pricing here, Razer redirects to EU website which doesn't sell this machine (yet). And practically the GPU is not in the laptop itself, so you can't drive 5K displays out the door if you need that.(Possibly the Razer Blade if they refresh it to NVIDIA Pascal too, which is pretty much inevitable given the market position of Razer)Or MSI GS63VR 6RF, like the MSI GS63VR 6RF-030BE. Still 800 EUR cheaper than 15" MacBook in Europe.Granted you may need to upgrade the SSD yourself in that notebook, but the said price delta is for a 256GB 15" MacBook. So an upgrade to both machines would cost just as much.I think we both have different definitions of pro. Although I completely understand the appeal of an ultrabook, I don't consider "lightweight" and "thin" to be part of pro. Pro to me is power user, workstation and raw performance. The linked MSI with GTX1060 "M" is a wicked machine, although I would expect an ultrabook with such dedicated GPU to thermal throttle like all the time. Therefore if I would make a conscious decision, I would either pick up a low-middle of the range ultrabook just for it's portability (e.g. 10-13", weight 1-1.2kg, basically a "tablet+" etc.), or get a "classic" notebook like the P50 that albeit heavier, has the battery life, I/O, build quality and durability I expect from a workstation.Possibly 1 note to add in favour of Apple. The displays are usually quite amazing. It's probably still the general sentiment; if you're doing graphics work Apple can still be a nice choice. The 1080p on the Thinkpads are basically shit in terms of colour reproduction. Although you can get a colour recalibrator in the machine I believe there are some problems with magenta. The 4K models fare better if I recall.

author: hendorog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 29, 2016, 09:29:01 pm
content: Quote from: setq on October 27, 2016, 08:56:17 pmTotally agree - I find the missing pageup, pagedown, insert, delete, home and end keys irritating.And now no Escape key either.

author: rrinker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 29, 2016, 09:54:30 pm
content: Quote from: setq on October 29, 2016, 08:35:59 pmI do a little bit of everything including database work, I have SQL Server running on my laptop, so I need a halfway decent machine. Mine has no discrete GPU, I don't game or generate 3D models with it so there was no need. And as I am always going to different clients, I can't rely on them to have spare displays and keyboards for me to use so the micro-ITX box idea is completely out for me.

author: aandrew
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 29, 2016, 09:55:44 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on October 27, 2016, 08:31:01 pmI disagree. I want 1080p in my Macbook Air 11", people have the same argument. People say the same thing about the retina display in the iPhone 4 and 5.Maybe *you* can't see the need or use for non-aliased ultra high resolution in a smaller form factor, but that doesn't mean that nobody does. It'd be a lot easier running Altium for schematic entry on a 1080p display in 11"; with 1280x800 it sucks. I have an external 1080p monitor of course, but being able to do it without the extra fuss would be great.

author: setq
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 29, 2016, 10:07:41 pm
content: Quote from: rrinker on October 29, 2016, 09:54:30 pmI tend to use an AWS instance for this stuff and use my laptop as a terminal for that instead of a proper computer. Much more versatile and I can buy power one demand.I can understand the power requirements for people doing VR and 3d graphics but not much else.

author: aandrew
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 29, 2016, 10:12:34 pm
content: Quote from: setq on October 27, 2016, 08:56:17 pmFunny, I had the exact opposite experience. This 2012 11" Air has been to hell and back. It's my daily beater. It's been under the hood of my car, in the garden, on countless job sites and operated in planes, trains and automobiles. I do hardware and software development, run multiple VMs and chose the 11" over the 13" because 13" is just a bit too big for planes and trains. I do *not* baby my equipment.When I bought it I spent $2000 and was questioning whether this was really going to be worthwhile. I up-speccd everything since it's all non-replaceable. i7, 8GB of RAM and 512G SSD. This past February the SSD died but a $30 adapter and a regular old Crucial 512G SSD had it back up and running just fine. I'm sorry to hear about your HFS+ partition loss but tbh that sounds like a lack of backups took down your contract. Every common filesystem used is an accident waiting to happen. I've been bit and between time machine, syncthing and duplicity I feel fairly confident that I'm disaster-proof. (Furiously looks for wood to knock on.)I've never replaced the screen or keyboard, but I did have the trackpad adjusted once (under warranty) and they replaced the case because they noticed a slight bend in the aluminum.This laptop is 4 years old and performs like it is brand new. The only things I really wish I could get would be 1920x1080 or better display and more RAM, but neither are crucial. I'll *happily* spend another $2000-2500 on another MacBook, but not what they just released. No effing way. They took all the things I like (escape and function keys, USB-A, replaceable SSD, magsafe, thunderbolt) away and gave me nothing in return. A gimmicky trackbar which might be useful in the long term, but not at the cost of my escape key. USBC is nice and is the future, but not when every single device on the planet (including the iPhone 7!) uses USB-A. Magsafe is a fantastic technology that others should emulate, not something to get rid of. Thunderbolt I can live without, but having an HDMI port on-chassis saves an adapter and loss of a port.I see a lot of people write off this little beast (and Apple hardware in general) as "starbucks wankfest" technology but let me tell you as someone who has been using laptops since 1999... this has been *BY FAR* the best-constructed laptop I have ever owned. Running OSX instead of Linux was a bit of a change, but after running Linux on the desktop since 1995, I was more than happy to kick it to the curb. I didn't really want Linux, I just wanted a Unix OS. The little odd bits that were Linux or BSD specific were "close enough" for me to carry on after a bit of relearning, and OSX is head and shoulders better than any of the Linux desktop environments. And Windows? fuggedabowdit. It belongs in a VM, never to touch real hardware. :-)... rant mode off. :-)

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 29, 2016, 10:14:57 pm
content: Quote from: aandrew on October 29, 2016, 09:55:44 pm1080p on 11" has much lower pixel density than 4K on on 15" , actually lower PPI than on 2880x1800 display which 15" mac pro has.

author: RGB255_0_0
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 29, 2016, 10:53:07 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on October 29, 2016, 10:14:57 pmHis argument was toast when he mentioned Retina, which is a gimmick marketing term coined by snake oil salesman of the century, Jobs. Retina has a poor resolution and it's used to mask that fact.OSX's superior scaling allows the extra resolution to be better used, although it does reduce the effective resolution somewhat, which often makes the extra resolution slightly less useful, though.I agree with people's points about MagSafe - Austin Evans made that point in his review, and others have also mentioned that you can walk out with the new Macs and not even be able to connect to the iPhone (the wireless connection to iTunes is a joke similar to Samsung's Kies Air from a few years back.However, if the Mac is the only laptop that fulfils a user's needs - In this case driving a ridiculous resolution - then you pick the device to fulfil it. Carrying around an ITX system or Razor Core (where not all laptops support it (HP's retarded whitelisting of hardware such as Wi-Fi and blocking of external GPUs)) is not always practicable.

author: Delta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 29, 2016, 11:44:30 pm
content: 2700 Euros and you don't even get Escape and function keys?

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2016, 12:38:35 am
content: Quote from: Delta on October 29, 2016, 11:44:30 pmRather a programmable bar where you can put the keys of your choosing, and they're dynamically displayed. There are keyboards for your desktop to do the same thing:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optimus_Maximus_keyboardSo rather than a missing feature, they've added something much more sophisticated (and expensive) while not blowing out the price of the final product.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2016, 02:18:11 am
content: Quote from: Someone on October 30, 2016, 12:38:35 amAnd much less useful to those of us who want to simply have a normal keyboard.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2016, 03:59:57 am
content: Quote from: Monkeh on October 30, 2016, 02:18:11 amHow is a freely assignable touch controlled lcd, less useful? you're not touch typing to the function row. If you want the keys, you just put them on there for instance its a nice way to have page up/down without using a modifier key.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2016, 04:08:11 am
content: Quote from: Someone on October 30, 2016, 03:59:57 amErr... yes, I am touch typing to the function row. I also have page up and down without modifiers. Also home, end, insert, delete.. All those keys Apple thinks I don't use.They've been 'innovating' with keyboards for years, and by that I actually mean 'making using them awkward if you use anything else'.

author: Ampera
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2016, 04:20:16 am
content: Quote from: Monkeh on October 30, 2016, 04:08:11 amTo add, who the hell thought it was a good idea to take a touch keyboard, the thing that nobody likes using, and adding it to a real keyboard. Next thing you know the next macbook pro will get rid of the keyboard altogether and replace it with a touch screen.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2016, 04:23:41 am
content: Quote from: Monkeh on October 30, 2016, 04:08:11 amMass market product doesnt appeal to niche use caseSTOP THE PRESSESIts not the product for you, a mass market product will never please everyone. Touch typing to the function row is not a normal activity.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2016, 04:26:06 am
content: Quote from: Someone on October 30, 2016, 04:23:41 amApple product doesn't appeal to personSTOP THE PRESSESUtilizing a damn keyboard is only quite recently a 'niche use case', and you are on a forum full of these niche use cases. It's called using a computer for more than Facebook.

author: Ampera
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2016, 04:48:21 am
content: Quote from: Monkeh on October 30, 2016, 04:26:06 amIt doesn't matter. It's a gimmick and not a needed one. It doesn't address a part of computing that had a gaping hole in it, it doesn't provide anything you couldn't go without, not even slightly, and it's just something that is more likely to get broken and be ignored.The specs follow Apple's trend of being MASSIVELY disappointing. With only a handful of hardware options, going Mac is throwing money away, while you have an almost limitless amount of options on PC. Not only THAT, but MacOS doesn't bring anything but annoying security features, and worse than linux application support.The only thing Apple can do is create a computer that ACTUALLY impresses with specs and gives a GENUINE price to performance bang. In my opinion nobody except for decent fans of Apple are going to buy this, and I think it could very well be a source of emigration from Mac to other 80x86 platforms.

author: technix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2016, 05:01:56 am
content: Quote from: TwoOfFive on October 30, 2016, 04:20:16 amThe only part they replaced with the touch panel is the function keys. Do you use those very often?

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2016, 05:03:40 am
content: Quote from: technix on October 30, 2016, 05:01:56 amI used one to see this post.. And the page down they haven't bothered to include for years.

author: technix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2016, 05:22:30 am
content: Quote from: Monkeh on October 30, 2016, 05:03:40 amDo you strike those keys, in macOS, once every a few minutes? Keep in mind that MacBook are designed with macOS in mind with Windows being no more than an afterthought.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2016, 05:26:14 am
content: Quote from: technix on October 30, 2016, 05:22:30 amWell, uh, no, I don't, as I'm not paying to be told what keys I can use.

author: janoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2016, 05:31:46 am
content: Quote from: technix on October 30, 2016, 05:01:56 amYou don't use the Escape key all the time? The function keys, ok, pain, but those could be perhaps tolerable. However, the Escape key is needed so often that you have to be able to hit it blind. My current Lenovo laptop has it stupidly positioned and smaller than regular keys, making it difficult to find without looking (chiclet keyboard). The number of typos and problems this stupid solution alone produces is really infurriating, especially as it is the default "get me out of this mess NOW!" key in most software. I always tend to hit either the F1 key or the backtick/tilde key under it.And that is still with a physical key. Apple has replaced it with a touchscreen now that has even less feedback, so good bye touch typing ...

author: Richard Crowley
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2016, 05:34:01 am
content: Us PC people (Windows or Linux) just don't understand the ethos of the Apple Cult. Apparently it is worth hundreds or thousand of $$$ extra. Apart from the fru-fru machined aluminum case, the internals are apparently quite average. At least if you watch Louis Rossmann repairing them.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2016, 05:36:59 am
content: Quote from: Richard Crowley on October 30, 2016, 05:34:01 amWell, they're quite different internally to the average PC, but their ability to stand up to anything wetter than an air-conditioned open plan office with an excess of artsy LEDs is, uh, limited. Perhaps if they spent some of that money on a little more gold or a thin layer of conformal coat they wouldn't rot out at the test points with alarming regularity.Then again, that might stop people buying the new ones.

author: technix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2016, 05:45:41 am
content: Quote from: janoc on October 30, 2016, 05:31:46 amThey kept the escape key where it was with the same size, so muscle memory was not broken. Although I don't use the escape key a lot even when coding. What is your programming tool? Mine was Xcode on Macs.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2016, 05:47:06 am
content: Quote from: TwoOfFive on October 30, 2016, 04:48:21 amYou'll just have to wait and see if it makes an impact or is silently dropped in the next version as an expensive experiment, but they've only added it to the top end laptops the rest of the range remains with normal keyboards. It can provide improved usability and by being open for developers to add arbitrary features there should be some interesting uses thought up, just the ones shown already are very interesting for content creation which has been one of the core markets for apple since forever. Some people moaned on and on about the ribbon interfaces, but these context aware tool spaces are efficient ways to work and have had a lot of research behind them rather than just a gimmick. And you're free to turn it off and just leave the old function keys as you wish, it only affects people (who claim) to touch type on the function keys and don't use the visual feedback of the screen (as when typing while reading a document).Instead of mashing the volume buttons up/down several times it can now have a volume slider, more precision and easier to use. Just at a first cut its all improvements.Quote from: janoc on October 30, 2016, 05:31:46 amYou like the escape key a lot? Make it bigger, you can even pick where it sits. The only thing missing with the touch screen interface is the clicky feedback of the button being pressed, which is zero issue for a key that you aren't queuing amongst rapid typing.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2016, 05:50:43 am
content: Quote from: technix on October 30, 2016, 05:45:41 amYou wonder why coders who want such specific keyboard layouts would even worry about a laptops keyboard, I see a wide variety of keyboards personally brought in by people to work and they just get on with it.

author: Ampera
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2016, 06:04:48 am
content: Quote from: Someone on October 30, 2016, 05:47:06 amI have barely even a need for hardware macros, it's just not something I need, and I can't see much of a use for other people. And with the examples of video editing, there are better PC solution like having a second keyboard for macros, which is not available to MacOS unless that changed.And yea, 0 touch feedback is a pretty big issue. Now instead of being able to look at the screen for every action I need, I am now going to be looking at my keyboard more to see what the bloody LCD strip says.And honestly, the biggest killer is the piss poor power of the Apple ecosystem. Their services are just not good, and nowhere near the flexibility and utility of Windows/Linux platforms. They are borderline restricting non Apple approved apps from running. This is the same thing with iOS, who wants a device where unless you do a backdoor mod (jailbreak) you are not physically allowed to install whatever program you want. Android has none of these features, and the matter of rooting and Android device is more of removing security features normal use wouldn't need access too. I rooted my old Android tablet, but when I got a new one, I didn't bother because it just wasn't something I needed.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2016, 06:33:21 am
content: Quote from: TwoOfFive on October 30, 2016, 06:04:48 amThey have headed in that direction but on OSX you just change from the default security of don't run unsigned applications, to run all applications, its exposed as a normal setting in the preferences and doesn't require any magic (though most people will never notice it). If they ever require signing then I'll leave the platform, the open source world just doesn't want the overheads.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2016, 06:42:26 am
content: Quote from: TwoOfFive on October 30, 2016, 06:04:48 amIt not about macros or function keys, they can be done with the new interface, but its about the new possibilities: Sliders, interactive function preview, notifications (opacity anyone?), and not having to remember the damn mappings of every different piece of softwareI'd like a subtle calculator that has no UI on the main screen and sits entirely on the touch bar, very handy. Huge possibilities beyond being a keyboard while the lost keyboard functionality is minor.

author: RGB255_0_0
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2016, 06:49:27 am
content: Quote from: technix on October 30, 2016, 05:22:30 amfn-down arrow = pg dn. The one I always forget is print screen. At least in Windows. Although, honestly, the Mac keyboard and virtualisation is just a pain in the ass due to the key mapping.

author: Ampera
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2016, 07:12:01 am
content: Quote from: Someone on October 30, 2016, 06:42:26 amBut I never had a problem with software sliders, I never had a problem with software buttons, and hotkeys have been a thing for decades. It's a feature that nobody needed, and is just a gimmick.They are charging around 20-30% more than they should, for a product that can't run anything useful for that price range, and is just chock full of gimmicks only appealing to someone who can't figure out technology any better.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2016, 07:29:25 am
content: Quote from: TwoOfFive on October 30, 2016, 07:12:01 amYou don't like its features so don't buy one? Sounds like the same story with most of the haters in here.

author: Delta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2016, 10:33:34 am
content: A touch screen instead of function keys is a terrible solution to no problem.

author: JPortici
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2016, 11:09:09 am
content: why? i use function keys on windows. i never use function keys on osx. the os uses a complete different approach to shortcuts and alternate keys.in my opinion it is actually a good thing to have a function bar that is adapted to the application you are using

author: timb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2016, 12:12:07 pm
content: Quote from: JPortici on October 30, 2016, 11:09:09 amI agree. I think it's pretty awesome and could be *very* useful. If this does become popular, I imagine the next version will use a Taptic Engine and some form of 3D Touch, allowing "muscle memory" to find the virtual keys.If you need real, physical function keys you can always use an external keyboard. Most coders and other people who do a lot of specialist typing already use an external full sized keyboard anyway. And if you don't, there's no way your setup is in any way ergonomic, so good luck with the back problems you'll have in a few years!A lot of people hating on Apple for being Apple in this thread. Anytime I hear cult, hipster, frou-frou or overpriced in an Apple thread, I stop reading the post.Apple products aren't for everyone, that's for sure. And yes, there are a lot of people that see the brand as hip, or a status symbol (especially the iPhone). Just like every company, some products they make aren't winners or are otherwise flawed, but that happens when you don't always take the "safe" path.That said, their build quality is generally top notch. It's been my experience their hardware products are very reliable, especially since they moved to the Unibody style.macOS has always been very productive for me, mainly because I don't have to worry about tweaking the registry, installing a myriad of updates, stopping my OS from spying on me or whatever else. The OS stays out of my way and lets me focus on getting work done, instead of creating work for me.

author: aandrew
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2016, 03:12:04 pm
content: Quote from: RGB255_0_0 on October 29, 2016, 10:53:07 pmSo you will write off everything I've said because I used a word you dislike? Interesting. Mustn't have much of a counterpoint in that case.Gimmicky name or no, the iPhone 4 the first phone to have DPI not just slightly better but MUCH better than anything else on the market at the time. The "gimmick" is what drove the DPI race wars which give us the super high res displays we have on our small mobile devices these days.The fact that a company came up with a name to drive sales is nothing new. It's a lot easier to say "retina" than to say ">300dpi" or use the "standard" VESA nomenclature like "QXYRPNXVGA display".

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2016, 03:13:59 pm
content: Quote from: Someone on October 30, 2016, 07:29:25 amAnd then there's the fanboys who take it very personally when people don't agree.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2016, 11:18:40 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on October 30, 2016, 03:13:59 pmNo personal, you're just presenting a niche case and a one sided point of view. It has good and bad points but the bad points are way overblown in here.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2016, 11:36:47 pm
content: Quote from: Someone on October 30, 2016, 11:18:40 pmMeanwhile you're presenting it as a massive step forward with no drawbacks and no possible valid criticism.

author: setq
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2016, 11:40:11 pm
content: Quote from: JPortici on October 30, 2016, 11:09:09 amIt's a bloody silly idea. You can't see a key you have your hand over and you can't locate a key you can't feel accurately. And yes smartphones are crap at that too. I managed to key about 6 words wrong writing this.

author: Delta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2016, 12:02:25 am
content: Quote from: setq on October 30, 2016, 11:40:11 pmThat is a very good point.One can tell if I am using one of those awfully old-fashioned "keyboard" things to post to this forum, as my posts are somewhat verbose and detailed. If however, I am using a superbly modern touch screen mobile device, my posts are rather more concise, badly punctuated, and with next to nothing in the way of formatting.---------------------------------------------------------Sent from my lovely clunky old keyboard...

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2016, 12:55:28 am
content: Quote from: setq on October 30, 2016, 11:40:11 pmYou can't see any key you've got your finger over, nothing specific about a touch interface. The current spacing of buttons on the keyboard is wide enough for most fingers to still clear the visual separations (black keys on silver background) which again is maintained with a touch interface. The missing components are a click on activation and the ability to feel along the individual keys, but if you're touch typing then you're already aligned from the rest of the keybed.Most of the these arguments against the idea would make sense if the touch concept had been applied to the entire keyboard, that would be horrible, but thats not whats being delivered. Just replacing the function keys looks like a better interface for the majority of people.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2016, 01:03:39 am
content: Quote from: Monkeh on October 30, 2016, 11:36:47 pmI'm happy to highlight that is loses the tactile action of a key, thats the only drawback when compared to the existing function keys. You've brought (derailed with) in a whole bunch of other criticisms of a condensed keyboard layout which are nothing to do with the touch bar, which hasn't changed on the laptop keyboards in macs for more than a decade? the stability of the layout has been refreshing for some of us who had to adapt every couple of years to constantly changing layouts of other brands.I can't find anyone who actually touch types in sequence with the function keys and the coders here are excited about a possible desktop keyboard including the same interface so they can customise the layout to suit their needs (per application). I'm hearing a lot of positives from the tech community about the touch bar feature. Which is entirely separate from the relative merits of a full layout vs a condensed layout which you keep pushing back on.

author: timb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2016, 05:50:41 am
content: Quote from: Delta on October 31, 2016, 12:02:25 amThat's you. Meanwhile I post almost exclusively from my iPad mini and can type very quickly and accurately. I routinely post long, detailed replies and threads this way. I've developed a muscle memory for where the letters are on the on screen keyboard and can type without even looking using both thumbs...

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2016, 06:37:08 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on October 31, 2016, 05:55:09 amSee here:http://www.gizmodo.com.au/2016/10/why-are-apple-and-microsoft-using-such-old-processors-in-their-new-computers/

author: JPortici
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2016, 06:39:13 am
content: Quote from: setq on October 30, 2016, 11:40:11 pmQuoteonly. the. function. keys.which on a MACBOOK are kept on their defaul state by i'm sure more than 99% of the people. so for those people the function keys are there only to control the brightness, press play/forward/backward, volume and such.on an imac, that could already be a different story... if it wasn't that the provided keyboard sucks balls and it gets replaced almost immediatelyor what are you doing? are you using some sort of autocomplete which select the next word with the function keys so you press them all the time... and your fingers are the size of a potato so you can't help pressing two at once?that would be silly..@blueskull knowing them, i'd say skylake. they never seem to use the latest technology. it was said that the new macs were delayed for two years because intel couldn't provide the cpus (and we saw that with the microsoft surface, it was emberassing to have to sell products we didn't have in stock for another month).. then one year later the mac-with-an-arm rumor reappeared..

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2016, 06:50:09 am
content: Quote from: JPortici on October 31, 2016, 06:39:13 amHistorically there was a steady pattern of Apple including yet to be released chips (CPUs and GPUs) in their new products with exclusive periods while only they had them. Famously they had the fastest laptop/computer in the world for a short period while the core 2 duo was out performing the desktop netburst chips. Thats possibly changed now that they require much larger volumes of chips from the manufacturers.

author: setq
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2016, 07:09:20 am
content: Quote from: timb on October 31, 2016, 05:50:41 amTry writing C++ on an iPad or more than a couple of pages of text (i.e. more than an article for Medium about why Medium sucks and you've found another platform on to spew crap at the world). Absolute nightmare from hell. I know, I tried. It's fine for smudging out an email here and there or watching grumble flicks but it's about as productive as an etch-a-sketch.With respect to the function keys on the touch screen bit. From what I can see this is touted as contextual which means shit's going to move. The whole point of keys is you know where you left them. Muscle memory gone, game over. Will be stabbing at them like a monkey trying to buy car insurance on a junk shop no brand android tablet. As for the argument that 99% of people don't use the function keys, you're probably wrong. One of the biggest laments I see with the Mac is from windows switchers who bought it because it looks pretty and wonder where the hell all their keyboard shortcuts went. Secondarily how on earth are one major user group of the Macs going to even do anything? I'm looking at parallels users. I know absolutely no one who doesn't use this to run their silent regret of switching applications. The mac keyboard is already a piece of shit for virtualization users and now it has been eviscerated of the last bridge to the sane world of being able to know where F5 is and press it to run your project in visual studio.So next stop Lenovo X1 Carbon. Macbooks have already shriveled up in the traditional tech space. I'm even seeing hipsters with windows 10 machines.This leaves the market of posers and people who are too stubborn to admit that it was a bad idea switching. And occasionally as this thread points out, the former disguising themselves through justification that they need to provide some figures for a emotional purchase because half their mind is rational and the other half is "ooooh shiny thing!!!"

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2016, 07:27:53 am
content: Quote from: setq on October 31, 2016, 07:09:20 amApple are discouraging dynamic uses of it (pooh poohing the best features!) but if you want function keys they're offering the system wide option to turn off any dynamic adaption and just leave the existing layout in place. Wasted money on a feature you never use but they're not forcing it on everyone like with the keyboards on an iphone, its just the function keys and its optional. But you might have missed that through all the rage in here

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 31, 2016, 08:08:28 am
content: Quote from: setq on October 31, 2016, 07:09:20 amNo, this leaves a bunch of posers who cannot admit most of the people can live without them or don't use them at all.

author: kaz911
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2016, 08:17:16 am
content: I hardly ever look at the keyboard when I use a computer - even for function keys and special signs - they have embedded themselves as muscle memory - so the TouchBar is rather useless to me. I use an old IBM style keyboard on the Mac when "at home" and that is absolutely perfect - part from keyboard is so worn it shines a bit like a mirror on the keys that use to be mat black...I had hoped for lightweight 15 (or even 17) inch high power developer machine. But I guess I'll wait for KLake 7-series to hit the Lenovo P series and put my MBP into retirement as a "shelf mounted" Xamarin compiler. The 16GB max is not enough for the things I do even with a super speed swap space on SSD.

author: rollatorwieltje
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 31, 2016, 08:52:24 am
content: Quote from: setq on October 31, 2016, 07:09:20 amFunny how Lenovo started this touch bullshit for the function keys, but they went back to buttons. Still has a fucked up keyboard layout, but at least they are buttons again.I really wish some manufacturer would bring back the Lenovo T60 or Dell Latitude D series keyboard layout.

author: setq
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2016, 08:54:40 am
content: Quote from: rollatorwieltje on October 31, 2016, 08:52:24 amExactly. Lenovo saw the error of their ways.I'm on an X201 at the moment that is 6 years old. I've had newer machines (Two MBPs) but this thing is orders of magnitude more productive even if it's old.

author: setq
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2016, 10:26:19 am
content: I'll just buy another X201 I think when this one dies. Does me fine as most of my computing power is remote (AWS) and you can get NOS ones that have been hiding in the corners of distributors for virtually nothing these days. £200-300 for a new unit with a 9-cell battery.10 hours, bomb proof, nice keyboard, can take a coffee in it and shrug (yes I've done that) and can strip and fix anything with a single screwdriver.

author: magetoo
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2016, 02:51:11 pm
content: Quote from: TwoOfFive on October 30, 2016, 04:20:16 amIf I recall correctly, Apple bought a company (long time ago) that did exactly this - they were the first, the first I heard of anyway, to have products that would let you use gestures on touch interfaces. There was a small one that became the touchpad as we know it today, and a large keyboard-sized one you could type on. Looked very Star Trek.Quote from: rollatorwieltje on October 31, 2016, 08:52:24 amWonder what happened to that Thinkpad project where they would take ideas from the community. From what I remember, the community were mostly on the side of "get rid of this modern nonsense and give us an updated T60".("Sent from my Thinkpad T60p")

author: rrinker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2016, 08:23:49 pm
content: I don't touch type, never had. I do best on a proper mechanical keyboard, the modern style laptop keyboard are ok, but the old ones without the individual keys were horrible. In my iPad, if I use it in landscape orientation and propped up at an angle (as the cover is designed to do), the size of the on screen keyboard is big enough for me to type effectively. For more serious note taking, I have an keyboard cover with an actual physical keyboard. I have and do just take the iPad to meetings instead of carting my laptop along, using an app like Evernote it then syncs to my Windows laptop. There are also plenty of use cases that do not require large amoutns of text entry, this is where a tablet of any sort excels.

author: hendorog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2016, 09:09:51 pm
content: And there go the niche users:http://betanews.com/2016/10/30/macbook-pro-2016-disappointment-pushes-some-apple-loyalists-to-ubuntu-linux/

author: AntiProtonBoy
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 05, 2016, 09:46:20 am
content: Apple Engineer Talks About New 2016 Macbook Pro:

author: setq
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 05, 2016, 05:44:48 pm
content: Hahaha perfect!

author: rfbroadband
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 05, 2016, 07:30:12 pm
content: brilliant.

author: ElektroQuark
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 05, 2016, 07:46:03 pm
content: The audio is funny enough (nothing to do with Apple), but with the captions together it's hilarious.