Subscription based options and features comming to new cars. - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Homer J Simpson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2021, 01:28:46 am
content: Automakers beginning to charge monthly for car features.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2021, 01:35:31 am
content: Ahah, we weren't seeing this coming!

author: Zeyneb
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2021, 01:55:20 am
content: And I thought I was a happy camper in my little 90s hatchback.Even though this guy implicitly call me an animal. I feel superior to those people who are dependent to the car dealer.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2021, 01:57:30 am
content: If you prefer to read about it. This article (from around July 2021) seems to go into a lot of details about it.https://carbuzz.com/features/the-complete-guide-to-automotive-subscription-featuresThe problem(s) I have with it, are that, it sounds cheap/affordable, at say $8 a month, per feature. But if you have (perhaps) 5 such subscriptions, making it 5 x 8 = $40 per month, then consider a 10 year period, with a +50% price increase because of inflation/reasons, it could average perhaps $50 per month.So, over 10 years (vehicle life, hopefully a fair bit longer in practice), it comes to 12-months x $50-average x 10-years = $6,000 extra, more if the subscriptions continue and the car lasts longer than 10 years.Also, the $6,000+, is for things the car already had when you/they bought it, so this is NOT good for consumers, by the sound of it.

author: PaulAm
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2021, 02:48:46 am
content: Actually, some of those features are things you USED to have.GM used to have a nifty remote start button on a key fob. Sometime around 2018 they went to a smart phone app. Everyone has a phone, right? But if you want to use it you need a data connection with the car through their Onstar service, which is a monthly fee.Like many items, cars are becoming software platforms designed to extract a continuing revenue stream from the user. You only thought you owned it.

author: Kim Christensen
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2021, 03:48:06 am
content: I would simply not buy a car that required a "subscription" to any feature I personally deemed "essential"...Nor should anyone else. Nip this crap in the bud people.EDIT: So far, all of these subscriptions are things I don't care about anyway.

author: VK3DRB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2021, 11:31:25 am
content: We already have "subscription" electric vehicles in Victoria, Australia. The knucklehead Labor state government has introduced a mandatory 2 cents per km tax to owners of electric vehicles, payable annually. The logic is the state government is losing tax on petrol and they see electric vehicle drivers are getting something for nothing. This government is addicted to high taxes and reckless spending. Their retarded electric vehicle incentive program has been touted by the media as the worst in the world. There is the threat the 2 cents per km electric vehicle tax will rise over time. So there are very few electric vehicles sold here. Most electric vehicle manufacturers simple don't bother with Australia, so the choice is very slim.So it is like a subscription on your key FOB. Don't pay and you are off the road. Except the money is going to a reckless government rather than to a company that actually produces quality products.

author: VK3DRB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2021, 11:52:50 am
content: You already have "subscription" keys from Honda, Toyota and others. They are designed to have you subscribe to replacing your remote as exorbitant prices, when they break.GM keys here were ultrasonically welded so you cannot replace the battery. The Mitsubishi keys break at the key ring; they were so badly designed, once can only assume it was done on purpose. Honda and Toyota keys cost around $350 to replace, and are also of poor quality. The BOM cost is around $2; certainly no more than $3. Toyota and Honda make their keys so you cannot swap out the key shank. If I ever buy a new car again, I will demand two free keys, else the deal is off.So if you have to pay $5 per month for a subscription for your FOB, it is roughly the same price at having to replace your crappy remote key. A FOB without a key might be more mechanically reliable than a remote key, hence the manufacturers get creative finding other ways to get money out of you.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 12, 2021, 12:10:58 pm
content: I hope they lose tenfold in market share loss of what they profit from those subscriptions.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2021, 12:17:30 pm
content: "You will own nothing and be happy..."This is yet another of those paradigm shifts intended to create a culture of "subscription for anything" that is intended to capture audiences that simply never knew anything different. Do this for enough years (i.e., decades) and you have a "new normal".I also hope this stupidity goes down in flames.

author: PKTKS
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2021, 01:44:46 pm
content: Quote from: rsjsouza on December 12, 2021, 12:17:30 pmI sincerely hope they get smashed by a TRUCK ...full of manure...Paul

author: brian_mk
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2021, 01:54:05 pm
content: God help us all!If it's anything like Adobe CC then every time there is an update, many cars will crash.

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2021, 02:04:41 pm
content: Good marketing tool for other manufacturers to their steal customers. Take the opposite stance and don't charge for these stoopid things. Steal Toyota's customers.

author: Refrigerator
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2021, 02:10:06 pm
content: How hard would it be to hack something like this to work without the subscription? If possible at all.

author: Tom45
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2021, 02:18:05 pm
content: Quote from: VK3DRB on December 12, 2021, 11:31:25 amAnyone that thinks that it wouldn't rise over time probably still believes in the Easter Bunny and the Tooth Fairy.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2021, 05:12:52 pm
content: Quote from: brian_mk on December 12, 2021, 01:54:05 pmToo late, already happened (or rather similar, probably a serverupdate), see here:https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-59357306QuoteQuoteSo many drivers couldn't get into their cars (Teslas), for an hour or so, because of server problems (possibly an update somewhere).

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 12, 2021, 05:15:23 pm
content: Quote from: MK14 on December 12, 2021, 05:12:52 pmThey couldn't open their car from a phone. Key cards and fobs still worked. If you are dumb enough to only bring a smartphone (even though it may discharge, break from falling, whatever), tough luck.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2021, 05:16:52 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on December 12, 2021, 05:15:23 pmWhich in many cases, were many miles or hundreds of miles away, safely kept at home. Because they thought, they wouldn't need them.Analogy:Everyoneshouldhave a backup of all their data. But not everyone does, if their data suddenly disappears, many people would be caught out.Hence (similarly), not all drivers will have read the user manual and/or have a spare key thing with them. So they got locked out of their cars.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2021, 06:54:44 pm
content: Quote from: rsjsouza on December 12, 2021, 12:17:30 pmYes, this is something I think I've already mentioned... but in the end, this new trend slowly leads to abolition of private property (except for those that actually reap the benefits of this model), which is an horrible mix of communism and capitalism at its peak. The worst of both worlds.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2021, 07:03:33 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on December 12, 2021, 06:54:44 pmI wonder what will happen, in the following, horrible/pessimistic situation ?One of more relatively vital functions, are under subscription. Then in the coming future, management changes their mind and/or new management or even the entire car company gets taken over by a much less pleasant company.Which then proceeds to massively increase the subscriptions, to rather over-priced levels.E.g. The subscriptions are operated/owned (farmed out), to another company. Who then gets taken over by, let's say Microsoft.tl;drwith car functionality subscriptions

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2021, 07:08:55 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on December 12, 2021, 05:15:23 pmMy dad did exactly that. He dropped and broke his phone and then realized the RFID cards were stored at homeCall me old fashioned but I prefer a plain old metal key. Pulling a key out of my pocket and inserting it in a lock just never seemed like much of a burden to me.Also I have a severe allergy to subscriptions and recurring payments and I keep it to the absolute minimum. If it is something like my mobile and utilities where I am continually consuming something then obviously a recurring payment is the only feasible option but I refuse to use anything that requires a subscription just to keep it working when there is no good reason for it to rely on external infrastructure. I don't care if it's only a dollar a month, I won't do it.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2021, 07:16:32 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on December 12, 2021, 07:08:55 pmThat can still go horribly wrong.Many decades ago, cars typically didn't have central locking. But some cars (typically Japanese ones), had the feature, whereby (details possibly wrong, as it was a very long time ago) you could hold the outer door handle up, push the inner door lock stick up golf tee like button, and slam the drivers door locked. Without it automatically unlocking itself. Which was easier than having to lock it from the outside with the keys.Which meant you could accidentally lock your car, with the ignition keys still in the ignition. Which was problematic. Meaning you had to walk or take public transport or something, to get the spare key.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2021, 07:20:29 pm
content: Quote from: MK14 on December 12, 2021, 07:16:32 pmSure, if you actively try to do something stupid you can put yourself in a bad situation. I have exactly that setup in my cars, central locking with a key. It prevents you from locking the driver's door while the door is open but you can still do it with one of the other doors. For that reason I *always* lock it with the key and in ~25 years of driving cars I have never locked the keys inside.I knew someone in high school who locked his keys in his car, with the engine running, and the stereo cranked up loud, parked in a staff parking spot.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2021, 11:47:13 pm
content: Quote from: VK3DRB on December 12, 2021, 11:52:50 amThe fob for my Chevy Bolt is not welded, I have replaced the battery a couple of times over the past 5 years (I WAS using Amazon batteries).The fob also contains a physical key should the car or fob battery die. In addition, there is an RFID reader in the glove compartment that will sense the fob and allow the car to start even if the fob battery is dead.No complaints from me!

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2021, 08:50:38 am
content: well Christ why would you want to sell a product if you can get envelopes filled with money mailed to you?

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2021, 06:49:25 pm
content: Yeah, this scheme is a nice cash cow, why would companies not use it?Three reasons I can think of:- Ethics (uh what?)- Consumers not willing to subscribe (of course, it must be a significant enough fraction of them, otherwise companies will not give a shit)- Regulation (oh yeah, what kind of government will want to stop the cash cow?)

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2021, 07:34:00 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on December 13, 2021, 06:49:25 pmI can well imagine the EU bringing in laws, to outlaw and/or control/limit the subscriptions situation.Other countries might follow suit.

author: MrMobodies
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2021, 08:11:20 pm
content: 3:13 In the video. I spoke to a mechanic a couple of weeks ago who said certain newer cars receive updates automatically to the firmware, they think through wifi? or a sim. I asked what if I don't want it to update automatically.He said well it is to get the best that the manufacturer wants to give. I told him about something I read to do with Tesla pulling features off second cars on transfer to new ownership because the "new" owner didn't purchase them. He admitted in that case it's not always good.I don't mind if it is to correct a safety issue in the car for it to be absolutely necessary but as soon as they start crippling the features when they feel like that is when I loose trust altogether.As far as I am concerned, it is no longer my car it, doesn't belong to me when they have the power to do what they like at any moment.08:20 It reminds me of the leasehold scandals many years ago when some building companies were selling new houses in the uk as "Virtual freeholds" with ground "peppercorn rent" but hidden somewhere in the contract this ground rent to double every couple of years or so with many other unfair clauses.You think you own your house but not the land it is on.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 13, 2021, 08:48:58 pm
content: Quote from: MrMobodies on December 13, 2021, 08:11:20 pmMisleading. Tesla pulled autopilot from a used car which was sold by Tesla to some third-party dealer without FSD included but it was actually there because they forgot to remove it. Then unscrupulous auto dealer who purchased it, sold it as if autopilot was included and obviously was paid by the customer for the feature. Then shitty dealer blamed Tesla when it disappeared after few weeks and did not own any responsibility. There was no ownership transfer between customers. Tesla restored FSD back FWIW.

author: MrMobodies
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2021, 10:14:01 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on December 13, 2021, 08:48:58 pmhttps://www.theverge.com/2020/2/13/21136699/tesla-autopilot-used-model-s-owner-restored-assistance-featuresQuoteI see so they were suppose to removed before being sold off.I think I read it wrong at the time.Sorry about that.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2021, 10:38:42 pm
content: Partly consumer laws around support/warranty, cars are required to be provided with spares and support for a "reasonable" amount of time (as in Australian and EU law). But if the electronic service was a separate line item/product and only limited in time then they can end it when it suits them.Consumer products, TV's, cars, etc have had laughably short support periods for their firmware/apps even where they provide major functions of the overall product. In the bad old days updating the navigation maps was a $$$$$ service item and you'd be lucky to get something a few years out of date even if you paid.

author: langwadt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2021, 10:50:30 pm
content: Quote from: MK14 on December 13, 2021, 07:34:00 pmI could be interesting here since we have 85-150% tax on new cars and anything added to the car in the first 3 months is technically taxed the same way

author: Homer J Simpson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 15, 2021, 02:07:49 am
content: Two additional perspectives from different channels.