Older, second hand spectrum analyzers, HP-8562A and Tektronix 2712 - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Lawsen
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2011, 12:13:13 am
content: Is this a good, second hand spectrum analyzer, heavy tube display and noisy cooling fan?View the video of the HP-8562A spectrum analyzer:I do not work in RF, but I find the video educational. I repair giant HP plotters for a friend in a far away city. What do you think about the HP spectrum analyzer and older Tektronix 2712 spectrum analyzer?

author: joelby
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2011, 03:13:15 am
content: As long as they're in working order, these are still great tools. The 8562A's 9 KHz - 22 GHz range is impressive even by today's standards. It might be worth having them calibrated, but at the very least make sure you can get a copy of the user and service manuals (but you may find it difficult to calibrate them yourself without access to calibrated test equipment). If you're planning to do RF filter design, get one with a tracking generator option.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2011, 06:49:08 am
content: That's not an older Spectrum Analyser!!Old Spectrum Analysers don't have a "boot cycle".You turn 'em on,& as soon as the CRT heater warms up--- a few seconds,you can use them!Seriously though,it looks like a nice unit,but it's a bit worrying that the guy in the video didn't seem to know much about it at all!He said something about "the right probes",etc--All you need is a BNC or N cable,or in a pinch,stick a length of wire in the RF input & go searching for Radio & TV stations!Many SAs have a switch position which directly connects the -30dB test carrier,so you can check that you get a usable display just by switching to that.I haven't had much to do with that generation of instrument.I went straight from the 140T mainframe plugins,& the SA plugins for HP180 & Tek 7000 series Oscilloscopes to a quite recent IFR analyser.IFR ,aaarrrrggghhh!--No USB connection!.It had RS232 remote controlinput only!!The only way to save displays to a PC was by using a floppy disc!And the stupid thing was new in 2006!On the plus side,it had a tracking generator & was quite a capable unit once you got used to the shortcomings!VK6ZGO

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2011, 08:37:14 am
content: Tektronix 27XX series are fine if they are working but be aware that the SMPSU can be a challenge to repair if it dies and the digital display generator on my 2710 is known for failing due to age. Custom chips on the board fail, so without a source of spares it's a bit of a time bomb ! I now own several Advantest R4131D spectrum analysers that are good to 3.5GHz and find then far superior to the 2710 that I still own.

author: joelby
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2011, 09:01:12 am
content: Quote from: Aurora on September 03, 2011, 08:37:14 amI've got a TR4131 and have noticed that it seems to have a lot of frequency drift. When looking at the calibration output, even after a lengthy warm-up time, the peaks wander around as you watch. Have you had any similar trouble with yours? I haven't had a chance to look at the service manual yet.

author: dfnr2
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2011, 09:29:30 am
content: The 8562A is a phenomenal analyzer. It's older, but the specs are just as good as the newest analyzers. The only difference is that it has a CRT, uses older RF modules rather than newer RF chips, so is larger size (but still portable), louder fan, and no USB port. It likely has an IEEE interface. This scope would be at home in a big-budget lab. Most applications probably don't really require this level of performance. To get the most out of this scope, it should be calibrated. If you have one of these, take good care of it.The 2712 is an economy analyzer, about 2 grades below the 8562A. It's still a good SA to have in the lab, and will work really well for a whole lot of applications.Dave

author: ejeffrey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2011, 09:31:47 am
content: I have an advantest R4131D at work and it drifts all over the place, especially at the high end of its frequency range. Even after a day of warming up it drifts by 10s of PPM over the course of hours, and visible walking on screen on a time scale of seconds to minutes. On the other hand, it is quite usable and has plenty of bandwidth. I didn't actually measure, but the drift seems more than twice smaller at 2 GHz than at 3.2 GHz.I also have a tek 2712. I haven't characterized it for drift, but I find it quote a bit more annoying to use and not as powerful as the advantest. It also has a fairly small bandwidth (1.8 GHz)

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2011, 09:40:00 am
content: Joelby,I am using R4131D's which are a much later and enhanced version of the original TR4131. I have a couple of TR4131's wrapped up in the garage but from memory the original Takeda Riken/Advantest TR4131 model can have the following issues...1. Damned heavy and barely portable2. The frequency stability isn't great, even after a long warm up period. Regular self calibration during use tends to sort this out though.3. There was an AFC option, one of mine has it, the other doesn't.4. Direct connection of aerials to the input without some attenuation in between is prone to killing the first mixer and is often seen as very high breakthrough of the 1ST LO when centred on 0MHz. If the spike is off the top of the screen, you may have a damaged 1st mixer as well as drift problems.I moved to the R4131D because it is much lighter and has a very good frequency stability. I stuck with the Advantest units as I find them a joy to use.There is no master oscillator holding all the stages on frequency. As such there will always be some drift in the design. Some later, more accurate designs use what is basically a very fast scanning receiver with a PLL locked to an accurate master oscillator. The down side is often the maximum speed of update that can be achieved due to PLL settling time.Has your unit always drifted or is it a new problem ? The TR4131 is a very old girl so she may have some issues with aging components etc. I have the user manuals and schematics for the TR4131, R4131B,C and R4131D models.It is worth noting that the R4131D's cost almost GBP15000 when new and were only dicontinued a few years ago in favour of a cheaper version. They are a quality product. R4131D specs attached. I will try to find my TR4131 manual today and comapre specs for you.

author: joelby
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2011, 11:29:50 am
content: Thanks ejeffrey and Aurora for your helpful responses!The TR4131 is about as heavy as you might expect bench equipment of its size to be, but I wouldn't say that it wasn't portable. Here's a photo of mine:I've only had mine for about a month, so it's very possible that someone has damaged it in the past. I'll have a look at the 0 MHz reading as you suggest when I'm next at home. It certainly has a peak towards DC (as most spectrum analysers do) so I didn't look at it too carefully.I'm not sure if it has an external 10 MHz reference input; if it does, I'll try feeding that with the cheap rubidium frequency standard I ordered from eBay the other day.

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2011, 11:51:40 am
content: Ex Australia Telecom kitThe tracking generator is an excellent addition even though it tops out at 2.5 GHz. Great find !If you compared the weight with the later 'light weight' R4131D, you would see why I don't think of the TR4131 as particularly portable. R4131D weighs 10KgI forgot to mention... these TR series spectrum analysers and tracking generators often suffer from button failure. I'm not sure whether it's a rubber conductive type mat or discrete switched but if you have intermittant button action I believe they are DIY repairable.Sadly no reference oscillator input. There isn't a 'Master oscillator' in the TR4131 or R4131D. ( I already considered this as I have a GPS disciplined 10MHz source and an Off Air Radio 10MHz source.

author: tecman
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 07, 2011, 03:33:41 pm
content: Either unit is a good find. The HP has a wider range, but the TEK is a respectable unit as well. You don't need probes to test. Hook a 6 foot piece of wire to the input. Set the span and yopu should be able to see FM or AM radio stations with the sensitivity cranked up. Higher range look for cell phone or UHF TV.paul

author: gregariz
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 07, 2011, 07:33:26 pm
content: The 8562A is an excellent Spec-An. This is an earlier model but you will see them commonly used in industry. You didnt mention the price but if you are ebaying it I would suggest perhaps the 90E series as these were made until very recently and prices seem to be similiar for the 60 series. The 90E series has the advantage of 'personality' cards you can turn your instrument into several others ie Network analyzer, Noise analyzer etc. Depends on what you need, but the 60 is an excellent Spec-An so you cant go wrong.

author: joelby
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 13, 2011, 06:05:45 am
content: I finally had a chance to photograph the TR4131 around 0 MHz.The calibration signal was connected in both. The first attachment is centred at zero (note that the calibration is 2.5 MHz off shortly after power on). The second attachment is centred on the calibration signal's fundamental frequency. Fortunately it doesn't look like it has the 1st mixer problem you described, Aurora.Pity about the frequency stability, though! Maybe it would be possible to replace a few of the internal reference oscillators with newer or higher precision parts?Has anyone had any luck with the GPIB interface? Photographing CRTs is lousy, so I was thinking about designing and building a USB-GPIB interface to download the data. It will probably be a much better use of my time to just buy a cheap one!

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 13, 2011, 07:33:24 am
content: The 1st Mixer appears fine from those picturesjust remember not to go into the 0dB attenuation mode unless you are certain that the front end will not be exposed to ESD or other high potentials. Never connect it directly to an 'open' aerial such as a discone without adequate front end protection.I managed to get hold of an ICS USB to GPIB interface that works with the TR/R4131. Sadly I am having problems getting the 'GPIB toolkit' software to 'talk' with the unit. I need to revisit this again some time but haven't had time recently.http://www.ke5fx.com/gpib/readme.htmThe '7470' plotter emulator should work with the 4131 but I believe I am having an issue with the ICS interface rather than the software or analyzer. If you use an NI PCT GBIP card life will be a lot simpler as even the NI USB interfaces can be a tad temperamental. The Prologix GPIB interface is also another more affordable option.http://www.cliftonlaboratories.com/ezgpib_and_prologix_gpib_adapter.htmThe frequency error that you showed in the first image is typical of the TR4131 at power on, I remember it well. It will not 'self zero' so you must do a self calibrate / zero cal. The solution is a 30 minute warm up followed by regular self calibration. The unit should settle quite well after warm up. I will dig out the manual as promised and look at the specified stability figures for you.

author: joelby
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 14, 2011, 03:47:18 am
content: Thanks for the mixer confirmation! I'll look after itThe software you linked to looks great. I've ordered a Softmark USB-GPIB adaptor for $60 and will let you know if I can get it working. The command set is well documented, so it should be pretty easy to knock something up with gnuplot.I've got the English R4131 service manual, which seems to be operationally identical to my TR4131, and the Japanese TR4131 operating manual, which sadly lacks service information and schematics.I suppose that it'd be reasonably straightforward to crack it open, identify all of the oscillators, check their stability against a good signal generator, then replace them if necessary, but it also seems like a shame to ruin an otherwise perfectly good and rather expensive piece of test equipment!Both manuals were found athttp://www.advantest.co.jp/products/emi/end_of_sale/manual/en-index_en.shtmlandhttp://www.advantest.co.jp/products/emi/end_of_sale/manual/en-index_jp.shtml

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 14, 2011, 02:14:05 pm
content: I have the full schematics fo the TR4131. It does differ from the later R4131 series.I could look into getting the A3 pages copied and post them to you at cost ?

author: joelby
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 14, 2011, 11:33:25 pm
content: Thanks, that would be immense! There's no hurry at all. I'll be happy to pay for your time, too.

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 15, 2011, 09:03:21 pm
content: It will be at cost only and you can have my time for freeI'll take thsi off line with you . Expect a PM from me.

author: joelby
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 20, 2011, 03:17:44 am
content: Should have listened to you - the Softmark device turned out to be a waste of time and money. It doesn't present a virtual COM port interface and thus the only way to interface with it is through a Windows application, which makes it difficult to do any scripting.Worse still, I couldn't actually get it to talk to the TR4131 at all and the Internet is full of people who are unable to get it working. There's an undocumented OCX for controlling the interface that no-one seems to have figured out, though the supplier offered to send me some sample code. I reckon I'll just get the Prologix!

author: gregariz
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 20, 2011, 06:52:36 am
content: Quote from: joelby on September 20, 2011, 03:17:44 amI've had the prologix adapter for some time and it works fine with the KE5FX tools that you can download. I have also used a NI gpib card - that seems to be the least painful and most widely used around (esp if you are using labview). However the pci gpib cards still hold their values on ebay. The ISA bus cards are as cheap as you like but thats just because you'd need to use an old PC.One of the best utilities I've used for this stuff is one called softplot... however its not priced for hobbyists @ ~1K for the license. (but the proligix works with it at least)

author: PixieDust
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2019, 08:18:33 am
content: Does anyone have any idea how much these Tektronix 2712 things cost new?

author: KE5FX
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2019, 08:50:47 am
content: Quote from: PixieDust on February 28, 2019, 08:18:33 amNot a whole lot. They were aimed at the CATV and broadcast service industries, so they were more economical than the 49x/275x/279x models that Tek was selling at the same time. A 2710 was $8K in 1990, while the 495P was $29K with similar frequency coverage.Edit: looks like the 2712 was priced at $11,950 in the 1994 catalog, and the 2795 was $22,900.

author: PixieDust
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2019, 10:01:18 am
content: Thanks, I couldn't find any catalogue type docs on google.

author: KE5FX
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2019, 08:16:17 pm
content: Quote from: PixieDust on February 28, 2019, 10:01:18 amTekWikiis a great site for the older catalogs (and lots of other stuff as well.)

author: xzswq21
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2021, 07:23:33 am
content: Quote from: dfnr2 on September 03, 2011, 09:29:30 amDear, I've invented and built a sensor in 2018 plus I have designed some new voltage probes, so I need a spectrum analyzer to check the linearity (HD2, HD3, THD and the noise) and AC response of the sensor and probes and publish the results in a journal, unfortunately I haven't accessed to a Spectrum Analyzer yet, I found Tektronix 2712 as an affordable choise , is it a good choise? display dynamic range is only 80dBm but I think I can use internal attenuator to see the fundamental frequency peak and the noise floor at the same time, there are some other spectrum analyzer such as RF Explorer wsub1g+ and Anritsu Ms2711 (b or d models), Advantest R4131, but I found other models are too expensive for me! What do you think abou Rigol DSA705?I have a 16Bits Siglent SDG2042x signal generator.

author: xzswq21
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 23, 2021, 09:24:18 pm
content: What do you think about HP8568A in this era? It's only $500 so it's an affordable choice for me! I have found Tektronix 2712 and the price is only $500, could you please help me to find a spectrum analyzer under $800? frequency band from 10KHz or 100KHz to some hundreds of KHz, I want to measure the linearity of some sensors and publish the results in a journal, thanks

author: xzswq21
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 24, 2021, 04:10:07 pm
content: Sorry for posting again, which one is better? A new Rigol DSA705 or a used HP8560 or Agilent E4402B?

author: Neganur
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 24, 2021, 11:25:25 pm
content: I think you should rather make a new post, your questions are awfully specific around your project and not so much about older second hand analyzers.You are throwing a lot of model numbers around you while stating you only need 10 kHz or maybe 100 kHz to "some hundreds" of kHz. Perhaps those RF spectrum analyzers here in this thread are not what you need.I would also point out that if your intention is to publish a paper (scientific...?) you better get something that is calibrated/accredited or you risk that your results are useless.With that said, I'd take the 8560 (A? E? EL? EC? which model exactly?) if it's $500 and guaranteed working...it is the better instrument by a mile*.Sources:https://www.keysight.com/upload/cmc_upload/All/856x_Migration_Presentation_Nov_08.pdfhttps://www.batronix.com/pdf/Rigol/Datasheet/DSA700_DataSheet_EN.pdf*: except for absolute amplitude accuracy, in which case the ESA is better. But the ESA is worse in every other aspect.

author: rfclown
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 26, 2021, 02:39:05 am
content: Quote from: xzswq21 on March 23, 2021, 09:24:18 pmQuote from: xzswq21 on March 24, 2021, 04:10:07 pmNo one can answer a question like this for you. You have to know what you want to do, then understand what you need to do it. If you are considering an instrument like HP, Tektronix, Anritsu, R&S, etc., just look at the specs. They will do what the specs say. I have an HP8642A and a E4404B. Which one I turn on (assuming I want to use a spectrum analyzer) depends on what I'm doing. If I was measuring the "linearity of some sensors" I might not use either of these but a different type of instrument.