Safety approvals  had become an worlwide marketing !! - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Kiriakos-GR
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 21, 2010, 10:57:36 pm
content: There is lots of conversations about Safety approvals in this forum.Some people defend with passion , the one or the other that represents , their local market.Yes as European , if something has just the CEtruemarking, I do not care it it has any American or Chinese or German Safety approval .But there is another true problem behind the "Safety approvals" in general ..They had become an merchandise ....( No they do not sold out their opinion by calling non-safe products as safe )They just ask crazy large amounts of cash , so to examine the devices.This huge cost , if one device has all those approvals , its transferred on the head of the consumer.Many companies they try to get the bare minimum of all those "Safety approvals" ,so to keep their product prices at one acceptable cost, and still stay competitive.I bet that if you are over-passionate with Safety approvals , there is the high priced products, so to serve your need.But anything else that has less Safety approvals , its not garbage either .I hate flag wars.I hate passionate conversations about not usable matters.And my opinion are , that if this forum has an value , are that its one device that are tested or better reviewed ... shows the value of it as stand alone product.The fact that the Safety approvals had become an worlwide marketing !!Its not a fresh story ..And it is an subject that bothers many manufactures .All that I am trying to do with this post , are to help some people to understand more ,how the market works.And if some one likes to help and verify my words ...Go and find how much it cost for one portable multimeter to get the CE Safety approval or the UL one , or the CCC one or the DVE one ...Lets speak with numbers , lets see the true facts ..And then , and only then , we will build opinion about such subjects.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 21, 2010, 11:12:02 pm
content: Quote from: Kiriakos-GR on November 21, 2010, 10:57:36 pmI'd trust a marking requiring actual tests (eg. UL) over a marking just requiring the manufacturer to self-certify (CE). Third-party labs tend to have less incentive to lie, although nothing's perfect. Also note that CE only applies to certain products included in the "new approach" directives (other products are forbidden from carrying the CE mark), and can only be asserted be an EU company (i.e. anything imported from outside the EU without a local representative can never have a genuine CE mark, unless it means China Electronics).Quote from: Kiriakos-GR on November 21, 2010, 10:57:36 pmWhatever it costs to stick on a label? Of course it does add some liability, which is why many companies choose to do some tests before sticking on the label.

author: Kiriakos-GR
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 22, 2010, 10:12:51 am
content: Tell me here and now ... how much dollars I have to pay at the Americans, so to get the UL ??5.000 $ ? 15.000 $ ? 50.000 $ ? ( just for an single DMM )If I had to chose just a label, it will beGE(Greek Electronics )

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 22, 2010, 11:07:18 am
content: 1st rule... demand and supply. 2nd rule... the fact that any engines built by engineers should get approval by certain standard, safety, measurement and testing etc organization. thats the fact in any known engineering field. maybe you Kiri got sucked up by the 1st rule... marketing rule. and i think you are not alone, so just be calm down. quoted from a movie... "if you want to get it done (satisfy), u just have to do it yourself"... in other word, if you cannot do it, just get over it and admit what others have struggle. and buy what you think you can afford and ignore whoever talk how useless shit it is. let the wisdom prevails and the truth is out there waiting to unleash itselfwhat did i say? o well... Cheers.

author: saturation
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 22, 2010, 11:53:57 am
content: Most safety organizations arenot for profitand it doesn't matter what flag they raise, because the rules are now standardized internationally. Most countries have their own local testing to make it easier and cheaper, to work with peoples in different countries.If they were for profit, there could be a perceived or real bias towards their testing [ i.e., doing tests for money instead or being bribed to allow passage], and that would result in peoplenottrusting their labels.UL, and I'm learning that VDE in Germany, as well at TUV, are among the oldest, over 100 years old in continuous existence.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 22, 2010, 12:17:08 pm
content: Quote from: saturation on November 22, 2010, 11:53:57 amyes they are not doing any business, they are professional body. holding certain standard that need and should be followed. but they are not just laying around, they need to keep up to date to maintain their integrity, hence there are movement inside, means they use energy, and that energy need to be replenished, its the"money", yes not for profit, but to enable them to move on..."there is no free professional service"... i believe.

author: gobblegobble
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 22, 2010, 12:19:37 pm
content: I think you guys are making too much of a ruckus about things that should come as granted. Taking few items at my arms reach I'll get: An external DVD - cheapeast a man can buy around here - and it's peppered with numerous approvals including PCT, PCBC, UL, TÜV, CE, FCC and few others I can't remember to translate at the monent. A wall-wart transformer, proudly Made in China and stamped with CE and PCT stamps. A light bulb, good old incandescent 'dozen for a dime' bulb and even that's stamped with CE, PCT and PCBC approvals!Now I'm sure the testing of a multimeter is more complicated than a piece of tungsten in a glass globe, but I'm seriously doubtful if the bureaucracy and paperwork is costly as you're guessing it to be. At least judging by the fact that they're able to pay for it in a lightbulb.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 22, 2010, 01:05:50 pm
content: well... the OP concerned. i'm just trying to help.even if the pro body is indeed free, then the price hike maybe due to some other rule. as i said... marketing rule. my post relating paid pro is the experince i got while working in a eng. consultant for a moment, well maybe just our local. just found in wiki, there is another term... other than professional body, there is "professional corporate".and i want to add somemore if i may. let alone the pro. fee, designing a device that really compliants to all those standards, you think its easy and cheap? esp something involving safety in KV area, not a "home use" equipment that eats 240V (or 110V in US).and another addition... you think with all the logos sticked, do you really believe the device is really compliant? esp the CE (china export) jeez, i only can say trust what you trust, for me... i only trust myself. above all, be wise and rational. o well, Dont Worry Be Happy!

author: saturation
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 22, 2010, 01:36:07 pm
content: Since safety listings are pretty much standard these days, all manufacturers intending to meet regulations budget certification as part of the development costs.Anticipate UL costs are about $10,000-30,000 per product. That's the upper limit estimate, often for complex devices that require high end testing like a CAT IV DMM.http://www.referenceforbusiness.com/small/Sm-Z/Underwriters-Laboratories-UL.htmlRemember, once the product is certified, how many you make and sell to recoup your costs depends on you. For electronic testing equipment with a smaller market, the testing can be a huge part of the budget compared to a consumer item that can be sold in volume, like a light bulb or a wall wart.A low end DMM may skip the certification if the total sales isn't expected to be much.Testing isn't just limited to the product, they inspect the factory that makes the product to insure that after they certify the product based on a limited run of test samples, the factory and the people making it, are capable of sustaining the production in the same quality as the test item.That means a certification also implies they test the factory itself and all things in it: the equipment, maintenance, the procedures, the management, etc.,Quote from: gobblegobble on November 22, 2010, 12:19:37 pm

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 22, 2010, 02:09:13 pm
content: dont get the discussion into support and aftersale service. thats a whole lot story.

author: Neilm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 22, 2010, 07:01:01 pm
content: The thing that really puts up the cost for safety approvals is when you find out that you have designed somthing fundimentally wrong. An easy example would be getting everything working on a CAT IV multimeter - then finding you have not sufficient creepage / clearance between the terminals requiring a full redesign.A company that is used to designing compliant instruments will not have big problems getting safety approval for their new instrument as they will have procedures in place to correctly capture the design requirements to meet the safety standard, so the testing they will do will be "routine". If it uses components that have been used elsewhere (for instance the case) some of the tests may not need to be repeated. Testing in this case can take a reletavley small period of time.Some of the tests for IEC61010 can take quite a while as that is what is required - for instance to test creepage and clearance distances requires hte instrument to be preconditioned for 48hrs before the test. (Always something to look forward to on a Monday).For those who are interested, my record for going through IEC61010 approval is three weeks - including having to have a material fire test done by a third party test house.Neil

author: Kiriakos-GR
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 22, 2010, 08:50:52 pm
content: Text taken from the UL link above ...The impetus for this effort, according to UL, is a recognition that companies seeking to establish a presence in multiple overseas marketssometimes need as many as 20 separate safetycertifications for a single product, a requirement that"can cost as much as $8,000 per safety markper product.And so an fresh made multimeter , needs 20 X 8000 =160.000$ for any Safety approval world wide.Interesting !!Now it makes sense ... why the Chinese they had form the CCC, their own Safety approval protocol .Those people , they was exporting until "yesterday" their own money, in to a foreign country just for an Safety approval.The same mess , because it is a mess , was happening to Europe , before the European Union,and Germany was the only one who was taking advantage of the merchandise called as "Safety approval".And my point are, that all this bureaucracy and egoistic financial interests,had cause an major damage in our industry worldwide.American and European and global .We need the " Safety approvals " , but currently thissystemworks against any new attempt for products production ..And this conclusion by it self , its the new message , that all those needs to be changed,because it works against productivity = new manufacturers = New JobsYears back there was small business , small companies , that they was had small production,of hand-made high quality tools.This model of business, it must revive again ..

author: saturation
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 23, 2010, 12:56:28 am
content: A long time ago you needed to get a product recertified for each country, to pass it safety standards. Now with unified criteria through the IEC, getting UL approval is ~ same criteria that TUV would uses in the EU, so a USA test can have a lot of issues reciprocated, and it won't cost $8,000 each for each country, for example.In the case of UL, a single certification could mean compliance with multiple country safety standards, for example if a maker decides to go through thehttp://www.ul.com/global/eng/pages/offerings/services/marketaccesssolutions/cbscheme/The whole international certification process is still not one for all, and all, for one, but its getting there.

author: PetrosA
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 23, 2010, 05:48:47 am
content: It's also true that unifying safety standards can take decades. I had to deal with some of the issues in Poland owning a cafe. The B sign had to exist on everything I used in the cafe from blenders to circuit breakers and coffee machines. There were also other standards for the health department, some of which were crazily different between Poland and other EU countries. Partially this had to do with how the laws governing safety standards are written in each country. One country may issue general guidelines and let the testing agencies sort out the details while others may have legislation for minute details like what materials are accepted (this can cause issues if, for example, a new material is used in a product but can't be approved because it's not on the list of accepted materials because it didn't exist when the list was made).Other confusing aspects include certifying for non-advertised standards. One example would be the devices being sold as "energy saving" or "bill reducing" devices which supposedly correct power factor for homes. They are usually nothing more than large capacitors, but some sellers prominently display the UL mark in such a way as to imply that UL has tested the effectiveness of the product. Nothing of the sort has been proven - the only thing UL does is certify that the thing will be safe if connected a certain way. So for any testing agency, the "Brand" value only really exists for the people in the marketing department...

author: saturation
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 23, 2010, 12:03:39 pm
content: Yes like many things political it can take a while. But its already realized in our lifetime. In the USA, TUV is recognized in lieu of UL.For example, the popular Rigol 1052E uses the International TUV mark, registered for use in the US, Canada and EU; that's the C and US beside the mark.In safety or marketing, you still need to be careful about how the marks are used. I often find less reputable surge protectors withUL approval as an extension cord, but its sold as a surge protector. So if the unwary buyer sees the UL mark, they may think its UL listed as a surge protector. If you bother to check the listing of the product at the UL.com site for the specific company, you'll notice the discrepancy. To avoid misleading claims the device has on the box, listed as 'surge power strip' without the keyword surge protective device or protector.http://www.ul.com/global/eng/pages/corporate/newsroom/newsitem.jsp?cpath=%2Fglobalweb%2Fglobal%2Feng%2Fcontent%2Fcorporate%2Fnewsroom%2Fpublicnotices%2Fdata%2Ful-warns-of-counterfeit-ac-adaptor_20080515145200.xmlQuote from: PetrosA on November 23, 2010, 05:48:47 am