40W CO2 Laser cutter/engraver any useful for electronic hobbyist? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: davorin
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 15, 2015, 09:14:36 am
content: There are dozens of those CO2 40W laser cutters/engravers available on Ebay....Does anyone use this kind of device for engraving and cutting acrylic glass to build custom cases?Or are those 40W just not enough?

author: LA7SJA
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2015, 11:57:32 am
content: Johan-Fredrik

author: davorin
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 15, 2015, 01:59:09 pm
content: Hmmm..nice (o;Wasn't aware that all cutters need water cooling....Wonder if they supply all parts with 115V AC only (o;

author: ajb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2015, 03:49:42 pm
content: We have a 35W Epilog at work, and it sees a fair amount of use. Ours does not require water cooling, FWIW, but it was also a heck of a lot more expensive than the ebay cutters. We mainly use it to cut acrylic for prototype enclosures, test fits, and light duty fixtures and jigs, engraving anodized aluminum housings, and cutting sheets of thermal interface material to size. We also use it for kapton solder paste stencils for some prototypes, but once you get more than one or two TSSOPs or QFNs on a board a proper stainless steel stencil is really the way to go.As far as acrylic, you can do up to about 1/4"/6.3mm with ~40W and get okay (but not great) results. At that thickness you get noticeable taper on the edges. You really want to make sure you get a cutter that has an air assist nozzle, this will really help with the edge finish.

author: Towger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2015, 03:52:12 pm
content: Quote from: davorin on June 15, 2015, 09:14:36 amPhontonicinduction has just acquired a 150W laser, needless to say he thinks 150W is not enough.

author: davorin
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 15, 2015, 04:01:04 pm
content: Well acrylic glass up to 2 or 3mm would be enough....for anything else I have a big and a small CNC machine to do the cutting..though it can't do fine corners...From the video it seems all cutters from China have to be adjusted and the power lines carefully inspected (o;

author: all_repair
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2015, 04:03:58 pm
content: How long can the laser tube last? Likely shall not be as cost effective as a cnc router, but shall be much cleaner. What other advantages do a laser cutter has? I likely going to get one but dragging my feet as I aleady got an underused cnc router (I hate the cleaning).

author: ajb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2015, 05:15:32 pm
content: Quote from: all_repair on June 15, 2015, 04:03:58 pmCleaner cuts on suitable materials, can produce smaller features, can make square inside corners, kerf is only a few mil, practically no mechanical force is exerted on the workpiece so no fixturing is needed (except maybe for repeatable alignment), capable of raster engraving, can cut thin/soft/flexible materials that can't be machined, faster for some operations than CNC routing/milling, doesn't produce piles of chips/dust (but does produce smoke and fumes that must be dealt with), no tooling to purchase and replace.Whether or not those advantages are compelling for you will depend on what sort of projects you have in mind.

author: ttt
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2015, 07:18:50 pm
content: Quote from: davorin on June 15, 2015, 09:14:36 ami have a 5030 model of these generic machines (50W). Acrylic is the ideal material for these CO2 lasers. 40W would allow you to cut up to 6mm of acrylic, at a slow feed rate (roughly 200mm/min). I've done 10mm on mine without any issues. 3mm plywood should pose no issue, 5mm is probably the limit for a 40W laser.

author: ttt
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2015, 07:25:34 pm
content: Quote from: davorin on June 15, 2015, 01:59:09 pmMost of them do if you ask, I got my 50W 5030 with 115V parts. The biggest hassle with laser cutters is not setting up the cooling system but setting up the exhaust system. The fumes can be toxic and cutting some materials creates a LOT of smoke. You need to actively evacuate fumes to the outside using high power external air blowers which do not come with the laser cutter. Worse, if you do not install proper ventilation you can potentially instantly destroy the mirrors in the laser cutter which are not cheap.

author: ttt
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2015, 07:47:33 pm
content: Quote from: ajb on June 15, 2015, 05:15:32 pmThe turn around time from design to having the cut/engraved pieces in your hand is literally seconds. I have a full size CNC, yet I try to do everything using the laser first. For acrylic there is simply no better way to cut it (apart from a water jet maybe). You get super clean edges, no shattering or having to drill holes first.

author: davorin
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 15, 2015, 07:50:04 pm
content: Do you have any experience with other materials?Just browsed a little through ebay and it seems almost no one ships to Germany/Switzerland...

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2015, 01:02:40 am
content: So he made it safer on the power cord but replaced the window with some transparent acrylic? The other one was probably safer to protect his eyes, and I also noticed he didn't wear proper safety eyewear, or any mention about that either.At least he did put a note not to do the calibration with the lid open, but it wouldn't matter if you remove the protective window anyways.

author: matseng
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2015, 01:19:19 am
content: Wouldn't acrylics be quite opaque to IR? If it was transparent then you wouldn't be able to cut it since the energy would just pass right through.

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 16, 2015, 02:10:10 am
content: Now I want one!

author: davorin
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 16, 2015, 05:57:13 am
content: I want one too :-)But I hear already my girlfriend screaming where to put this sucker (o;Kinda big with 800mm wide...but only cutting up to 300mm x 200mm....And the exhaust pipe is definitively a problem in the basement....would need to place it in the room near by where my big CNC and lathe is (o;What kind of semiconductor IR laser would you need to achieve the same power as a CO2 40W laser?

author: matseng
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2015, 06:07:00 am
content: Quote from: davorin on June 16, 2015, 05:57:13 amProbably a 40 watt 808 nm IR laser :-) The 40 watt is the output power, not what it takes to drive it. So 40 watts is 40 watts regardless of the origin as long as the frequency is the same - and I think they are.You would still have more or less the same cooling requirement and also the same problems with getting rid of the nasty smoke though... And you'd also have a harder time collimating the beam of an solid state laser compared to the tube.

author: Falcon69
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2015, 06:31:44 am
content: will this 40watt etch aluminum or steel? Or only acrylic/plastic/wood?Also, 3mm acrylic is no problem? How much of a kerf (angle) will you see on the finished piece? What is the minimum slot on a 3mm piece of acrylic will it cut? 0.5mm wide by chance?for $380 bucks, I have some projects I could definitely use this on. (just gotta come up with the cash)

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2015, 07:03:16 am
content: Quote from: davorin on June 16, 2015, 05:57:13 amIf you are going to use one of these in a place where venting to the outside is impractical you are going to need some efficient filtering to keep things healthy. Does anyone have experience with just how hard it might be to scrub the fumes from ones of these things?

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2015, 07:16:01 am
content: At a minimum you would need a wet scrubber, to remove all particulates from the air. Even that will have issues, it will allow some volatile particles through but will pretty much get all the smoke out, concentrating it in the water stream. Now you will have humid air coming out that is smoke free, but you will have to dispose of the contaminated water.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2015, 07:31:11 am
content: A while ago I bought one of the cheap Chinese cutters.The motion controller was a piece of utter junk -parallel port, and flaky as hell - had a habit of freezing part way though a job with the beam on, setting the work on fire. It had no speed control, which you need if you want to do more than simple surface engraving. Also had no height adjust.The mechanics were sort-of OK, but the optics had no fine-thread adjust screws so alignment is a nightmare to do.The cooling they provide is a pump you put in a bucket of water - you really need to hook up something more permanent, and enclosed so it doesn't fill up with dirt and gunk. You also need to add some flow detection, otherwise if it gets blocked or leaks you may not know til the tube dies.The extractor fan they supply is pretty crappy. You _need_ extraction.Although good for acrylic, that, and thin card & ply, is pretty much all it's good for material-wise.I subsequently bought one of the cheap 3040 CNC engravers which has proved much, much more useful - much wider range of materials, depth cutting, ability to use for precision drilling of PCBs, jigs and cases, PCB outlines, and potentially also solder paste dispensing.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2015, 07:35:36 am
content: Quote from: matseng on June 16, 2015, 06:07:00 amNot all 40W lasers are equal in terms of usefulness. The nice thing about CO2 is most materials are opaque to it, so it cuts clear acrylic as easily as coloured stuff. Also any transparent material can be used for safety (at least until you notice a hole burning through it).808nm is close to visible so will be hard to use for transparent materials, and much more dangerous and needs proper filtered eye protection.BTW 808nm diodes tend to come in bars for pumping solid-state laser rods, so I suspect getting a 40w beam at 808 would be difficult, though a DPSS at 1064 or 532nm would be more doable.

author: rollatorwieltje
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 16, 2015, 08:06:46 am
content: Quote from: Falcon69 on June 16, 2015, 06:31:44 amit isn't really $380, look at the shipping costs.

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2015, 08:58:46 am
content: anyone know what sort of laser cutter is needed for cutting 4mm carbon fiber?

author: ajb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2015, 04:59:04 pm
content: Quote from: Falcon69 on June 16, 2015, 06:31:44 amYou won't be able to directly mark aluminum or steel, but you can use a marking compound such as Cermark to do the job. You could easily mark anodized aluminum (the anodized layer turns white, so works best on dark colors). I've done bare titanium as well (basically selective heat anodizing, I guess), but it's a bit tricky to get maximum contrast--as you turn up the power/increase repetitions the marks get progressively darker and then suddenly lighter, so you have to know when to stop. I've also engraved painted and powdercoated aluminum which can work pretty well. Theoretically you could achieve arbitrary color combinations by first coating your part with the color you want the engraving to be, then top coat with the background color. If your coats are consistent enough in thickness, you should be able to engrave away the top coat and expose the under coat. Haven't gotten around to trying that.If you want to do direct metal marking, though, you want a fiber laser rather than a CO2.

author: rx8pilot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2015, 05:13:14 pm
content: I have owned two of the Epilog lasers in 35w and 50w. They are really easy and reliable little machines with great support. A friend got one of these off-brand machines and had nothing but struggles. First, the laser was bad from the beginning in addition to various motion control issues. Once he got past that, the software was at least as fiddly and crappy. After that, the actual marking performance was on par with what was paid - poor.While the Epilog's are not industrial machines, they are VASTLY better machines with a price tag that is appropriately higher. After seeing what I saw, I would not waste my time or money on these eBay specials. They seem cheap until you fiddle with them constantly and never get more than a marginal result. There is a chance you may be more lucky, but would not count on it.

author: LukeW
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2015, 05:47:09 pm
content: Quote from: miguelvp on June 16, 2015, 01:02:40 amFor 10um from a carbon dioxide laser, any ordinary plastic is opaque - eg. acrylic or polycarbonate, and suitable for the viewing window. Just about all materials absorb strongly at those kind of wavelengths.If you actually want the material to be transparent at 10um, say for the laser lens, then you need to go to specialist materials like zinc selenide or germanium.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2015, 09:31:02 pm
content: Quote from: LukeW on June 16, 2015, 05:47:09 pmOr Silicon. ISTR a while ago Jeri did a video of making a box with a silicon wafer as a lid to contain smoke when laser cutting

author: Halfdead
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2015, 09:41:38 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on June 16, 2015, 07:31:11 amThe motion controllers on these units have improved since then, but not much else though.

author: edavid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 17, 2015, 12:11:59 am
content: Quote from: rollatorwieltje on June 16, 2015, 08:06:46 amIn the US, it's really $380 with free shipping, for examplehttp://www.ebay.com/itm/40W-LASER-ENGRAVING-ENGRAVER-MACHINE-COMPUTERIZED-CUTTER-THIRD-GENERATION-GREAT-/141690337410Question, if I vented one of these out a basement window, would the fumes be enough to bother the neighbors?

author: rx8pilot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 17, 2015, 12:38:59 am
content: Quote from: edavid on June 17, 2015, 12:11:59 amDoubtful. It is just not that much and it will disperse rapidly when it exits the exhaust outlet.

author: Mr.B
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 17, 2015, 12:46:59 am
content: Quote from: rx8pilot on June 17, 2015, 12:38:59 amIt depends what you are cutting.When I do organic rubber gaskets if definitely creates a big stink...[Using a VersaLaser 50w]

author: Mr.B
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 17, 2015, 12:50:39 am
content: Quote from: Psi on June 16, 2015, 08:58:46 amI know that my 50w will struggle with 0.5mm CF and travels very slow leaving a rough burned edge.I think I read somewhere that someone was using 200w to cut 1mm satisfactory.As for 4mm... I dont know.Perhaps the application engineers at Universal laser Systems (VersaLaser) may be able to help.They have always been very helpful to me.

author: rx8pilot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 17, 2015, 01:27:45 am
content: Never tried it myself, but it seems that CF is not very laser cuttable material. The epoxy binder will melt/chemically decompose far faster than the carbon threads would break. I have mainly seen CF being cut mechanically or water jet.

author: PE1RKI
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 17, 2015, 09:34:18 am
content: anybody know how much lazery power is required to make a clean cut in 0.3 or 0.5mm thick alu plate ?i am outsourching this at the moment and the 4 pieces i had to let cut where 75 euro already.that was including shipping and setup costs.

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 17, 2015, 10:47:59 am
content: Thanks guys, looks like there's no point me buying a cheap laser cutting for CF

author: rollatorwieltje
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 17, 2015, 06:17:18 pm
content: Quote from: edavid on June 17, 2015, 12:11:59 amOk, the add I was looking at showed 300+ USD shipping for every country. I'm a bit surprised they can actually make one for that price. I wonder how long that laser tube lasts...

author: FrankenPC
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 19, 2015, 08:33:57 am
content: I wonder what kind of water filtering they need. When I was messing with water cooled YAG's, I needed to install inline deionization filters.