Siglent P510 Probes - Junk or bad luck ? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: TomKatt
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 14, 2023, 11:49:04 am
content: So I pull out my SDS1104X-E yesterday to troubleshoot some automated equipment in our shop - one of the few times I actually use all 4 channels. I start getting readings that make no sense and I'm double checking that I've got the probes on the right terminals and that they appear to have a good connection. Eventually I discover that although the X10 switch on 2 probes is in the X10 position, it's actually bringing the signal to the scope at 1X. I fiddle with the switch and initially think both probes are defective because the switch feels jammed and does not operate smoothly. Much later, I discover the reason for this is that the inner portion of the probe has been pushed up and the switch is out of position on the body of the probe. I noticed this mostly because I saw the HF adj screw was not aligned in the access hole. So I push the cable end down towards the tip to reposition everything, but as soon as I try to push the spring clip accessory on to the tip, the whole innards move back up.The odd part was that the 2 probes having issues are used very infrequently, so it's not like they get a lot of use. Now, looking at my primary pair of probes more closely, I note that they too seem loose on the inside. I know that these probes aren't the highest quality, but it seems they are well regarded for what they are. I typically don't need high bandwidths so I've always used inexpensive 100Mhz probes from Amazon etc and really never have had this problem before. My scope doesn't get a ton of use, and I always keep my gear in the Siglent case (great scope bag btw!) - it's not abused.Even though I don't often need 100Mhz+ gear, I do have a thing about cheap feeling probes so after locating a coupon for Probe Master Ive ordered a set of their 4900 150Mhz probes. WAY overkill for what I need, but the price was acceptable and I'm sure those probes will 'feel' better in the hand. They also come with a nice set of attachment accessories which is great because it seems like I'm always having to McGyver some hookup to a PLC board somewhere.Anyhoo - Just figured I'd mention this and see if anyone else has encountered this problem... I doubt Siglent actually makes their probes, no doubt they are just contracted out to some generic manufacturer. And like I said it seems people are generally satisfied with them. So maybe I just got a bad batch?Edit - image of one of the probes in question. Note compensating screw out of position, body sticking out near cable boot and also reduced ground clip location. The whole insides of this probe are slipping out of the probe body with minimal effort. One other probe is just as bad, and the other 2 seem like they're heading down this path. This particular probe has been used perhaps a dozen times.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 14, 2023, 08:14:19 pm
content: We have had some duds.Unusual to have 2 with a scope though and normally they give good service.1 year warranty is offered for probes so with a supporting screenshot of the compensation signal sent to your supplier should demonstrate they are faulty to get free replacements.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 15, 2023, 01:49:33 am
content: Quote from: TomKatt on September 14, 2023, 11:49:04 amI want a coupon! I blow so much money on their (excellent) probes. 🤣🤣😭

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 15, 2023, 02:50:02 am
content: Yes the guts of the PP510 can slide back and cause non-workingness. Although they perform surprisingly well when not broken, the PP215 are much better overall, exemplary in fact for inexpensive probes included with an entry level scope. The Probemasters are nice to use, but likely will not outperform the Siglents with regards to BW, loading and phase.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 15, 2023, 04:34:55 am
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on September 15, 2023, 02:50:02 amWe have failures with these too.In general all are much better than a few years back since 00 was printed on them to identify a different production run.TBH we still test every probe before customers get them but only a few dealers do.

author: Calambres
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 15, 2023, 09:06:16 am
content: One of my P510 probes failed. No visual damage to be seen but the switch got stuck on 10x. The official dealer sent another at no cost under warranty. They're not the best probes around but they're not that bad.

author: TomKatt
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 15, 2023, 10:34:00 am
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on September 15, 2023, 02:50:02 amI've never had an issue with how my P510 probes performed - as mentioned, I don't often get into multi MHz work and the Siglent probes did perform well for what I needed. I don't have much of a complaint in regards to their signal performance. I try not to abuse my gear, but frequently I am working in a manufacturing environment which is another reason I decided to invest in some more robust probes.Quote from: tautech on September 15, 2023, 04:34:55 amMy warranty is long expired, and I'm not really upset as the scope itself has been fantastic. I did purchase it through Amazon and since then I have learned to appreciate the benefits of purchasing directly from an authorized dealer.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 15, 2023, 11:39:57 am
content: Had two dud ones here. Telonic in UK replaced both and they were working after that!

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 15, 2023, 01:46:23 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on September 15, 2023, 04:34:55 amI'm 12 for 12 with the PP215. Now if they would just make a PP215without the switch, that would be a truly worthy product IMO. A readout pin for the SDS2000X+ would make it outstanding.

author: Doctorandus_P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 15, 2023, 02:40:21 pm
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on September 15, 2023, 01:46:23 pmYeah, same here. Those switches on probes are just a nuisance. They can be set in the wrong position, slide over when you don't suspect it, and you're constantly checking whether they are still in the 1:10 position.And who ever uses them in the 1:1 position anyway? It destroys your scope bandwidth. I rarely use the original probes on my old Rigol DS1052E (RP2200) as the switches on those are also quite bad and malfunction.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 15, 2023, 03:09:04 pm
content: +1 for some decent 10x probes without switches!

author: BillyO
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 15, 2023, 04:58:01 pm
content: I have 4 of the PP510s and 4 of the PP210s. No issues with any of them, but I don't use them much. They are back in their pouches and in the scope boxes. If there is one thing I have loads of is probes.For 10x only probes with the indicator pin there are Tek P6139 probes readily available in great condition on the used market for very reasonable prices. 500MHz BW and 8pF. You really can't do much better than that for what these sell for. Just a thought.

author: TomKatt
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 15, 2023, 05:10:13 pm
content: Quote from: Doctorandus_P on September 15, 2023, 02:40:21 pmI'm probably in the super minority, but 1X works great for low frequency measurements like audio work and power supplies. I was under the impression that 1X allowed better SNR for low frequency, low level signals...

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 15, 2023, 05:30:05 pm
content: Quote from: TomKatt on September 15, 2023, 05:10:13 pm1X is fine for certain things, but you don't need a probe at all for this, just a BNC-to-alligator (or whatever) breakout cable. Or you can literally just cut off a BNC/coax cable.https://www.amazon.com/Elenco-TL-17-Alligator-48-Inch-Length/dp/B0002JJU4G

author: TomKatt
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 15, 2023, 06:03:44 pm
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on September 15, 2023, 05:30:05 pmI've got bunches of simple coax test leads. BNC -> Dupont pin headers works great for breadboard work. Likewise with minihooks and alligator clips. And RCA->BNC adapters.I use 1X probing all the time. And yes, I've confused myself with the stupid probe switch. At least this time I got a pair each of X10 and X1+X10 switched so I have the option.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 15, 2023, 08:27:02 pm
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on September 15, 2023, 01:46:23 pmNext class of probe are these, compensation on the BNC and probe is in of a more compact design:https://siglentna.com/product/sp2035a-auto-sense-350-mhz-oscilloscope-probes/Standard probe for SDS2354X Plus and 2kX HD.

author: Doctorandus_P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 16, 2023, 12:39:04 pm
content: So apparently a loose PCB in the probe is a common problem and they send you a replacement when you send them a picture of a faulty one. So that solves most of it.For the rest, if the PCB inside the probe moves, then just drill a hole through the outer shell of the probe and inject some hot glue to fixate the PCB. (Of course after you've received confirmation you get a new probe).As for the probe switch. Sure you can do low frequency stuff with the switch set to 1:1, and it lowers the noise floor, as there is less amplification in the scope, but you can do that with any wire.

author: TomKatt
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 16, 2023, 08:13:51 pm
content: Quote from: Doctorandus_P on September 16, 2023, 12:39:04 pmNot disagreeing, but it can be a little tough poking around with a wire - a probe is easier to handle and safer to use. Doesn't matter if it's basically just a wire with a probe on the end. It's a tool like any other, and you can have better or worse implementations of that tool. Dave has a video showing a 9M resistor soldered to the end of some coax - there's your 10X wire probe, and he claims the performance rivals probes costing hundreds of $. But a conventional probe design is usually easier to use.I remember the first scope I used was some 1950's tube set with wire-nut terminals on the front panel - you just attached wires to your gear. And it worked for the task.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 16, 2023, 08:33:56 pm
content: Quote from: Doctorandus_P on September 16, 2023, 12:39:04 pmProbes only have 1 year warranty.Most common fault has to do with a poor crimp to the coax shielding braid IME.This shows itself by the 1x/10x switch not 10x dividing the signal cleanly when the reference (Gnd) lead is not used. < Our predelivery check while compensating the probes while we're at it.I have never seen a new one with loose guts.Member xrunner had a dud PP215 NIB, replaced by Siglent NA without question so he decided to investigate the dud one and got it working as it should.Repair starts here and in following posts:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/test-equipment-anonymous-(tea)-group-therapy-thread/msg4657630/#msg4657630End result.https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/test-equipment-anonymous-(tea)-group-therapy-thread/msg4667176/#msg4667176

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 16, 2023, 10:08:20 pm
content: I still can't see why they don't buy in some 10x fixed probes. Surely something like an Agilent 10074C can be produced for the same or probably less money than a shitty switchable one.Actually on that they really need to sell the following separately as well:1. Standard 10x probe2. Standard 1x probe3. Replacement hardware kit for the above!Probe kits need the long strap, ground spring, coax adapter, markers and some decent plastic protectors that allow SOIC / DIP poking.Should ship Nx 10X (where N=number of channels) and 1x 1X with the scopes.

author: TomKatt
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 16, 2023, 10:25:06 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on September 16, 2023, 10:08:20 pmThe available accessories were a large factor in my decision to purchase the Probe Master set - the number of options is very impressive. Combined with higher build quality and nice silicone wire, they're a good investment.Edit - I watched a Probe Master promo video... I knew they were made in the US but didn't realize they do their own plastic injection and make virtually all the components used to make their probes. Apparently they also custom spec their cable wire. And it's nice to support US manufacturing when I can.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2023, 01:22:29 am
content: Quote from: Doctorandus_P on September 16, 2023, 12:39:04 pmThe advantage of a 1:1 probe is that itisn'tjust "any wire" & offers you the same convenience you get with a X10 probe.The clip will usually stay where you put it, & slipping the end off the probe, you have a nice slim point for "back probing" plugs or looking at the pins of ICs, etc.Along with a BWD 845 Oscilloscope, I recently acquired a switched probe, also from BWD.After 50 odd years, the switch still works perfectly, the probe is little thicker than the modern "El Cheapos" I have, but not obtrusively so.Of course, in 1970, it probably cost a couple of day's wages, so it should have been well made!When I was at the TV Studio, there were always a few dead Tektronix probes around which could be rebuilt into "Frankenprobes".They were officially "written off", but found their way into my toolbox, as they were perfectly OK when rebuilt.I was told to take my toolbox with me when I left, so I did so, complete with rebuilt probes & a few probe corpses.That was a long time back, so the "Frankenprobes" have all run out.The cheap secondhand Tek probes from the USA appearing on eBay become unaffordable when the ridiculous shipping quotes are added to the price, so in Oz, they are pretty much not worth the effort.Strangely, again on Oz eBay, it is cheaper to buy Chinese "El Cheapo" probes through ostensibly Australian sellers than direct from China, & they aren't all that much more expensive "across the counter" at "bricks & mortar" shops.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2023, 01:40:35 am
content: Quote from: bd139 on September 16, 2023, 10:08:20 pmSiglent do but only 350 MHz probes:https://siglentna.com/product/sp2035-350-mhz-oscilloscope-probe/Quotehttps://siglentna.com/product/probe-accessory-kit-pak1/https://siglentna.com/product/probe-accessory-kit-pak2/QuoteAll in the above pak2QuoteAnd whatacceptable% cost increase would cover these ?IMO it would make more sense to only ship 10x probes with scopes however the convenience of 1x with a switchable probe is valuable for some but can be done with the cheap BNC to croc leads that are widely available and do also have other usefulness on the bench.

author: BillyO
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2023, 01:53:16 am
content: Quote from: tautech on September 17, 2023, 01:40:35 amNot quite right though. 1X 10X switchable probes have resistance wire for the center conductor. Usually 300-500 ohms. This helps dampen issues related to impedance mismatches which you can easily get with the BNC to crock leads. If the crock leads are used correctly (50 ohm loading both ends) they are actually pretty damn good, but just connected up willy-nilly can land you in a land of nightmares and "interesting" results. Especially the cheaper ones with long un-shielded leads to the clips. Of course with audio frequencies it matters little about reflections and ringing, but EMI noise pickup can still be a pain.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2023, 02:48:27 am
content: Quote from: BillyO on September 17, 2023, 01:53:16 amThe wavelength of 20 MHz is about 50 meters, so about 35 meters in coax. As long as you use your 20 MHz BW limiter, there won't be any transmission line effects. You still can pick up noise below that with loops in the test leads, etc, but that isn't related to any impedance or transmission line effects. I wouldn't use any 1X probe with a 50R input setting, or am I misunderstanding you?

author: BillyO
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2023, 02:57:11 am
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on September 17, 2023, 02:48:27 amI'm in agreement here.Quote from: bdunham7 on September 17, 2023, 02:48:27 amPerhaps. I was referring to straight coax cables with (or without) alligator clips, not 1X/10X probes set to the 1X position.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2023, 03:18:59 am
content: Quote from: BillyO on September 17, 2023, 02:57:11 amOK, so if it is a coax with BNCs on each end and your source is 50R, that's one thing. But I'm referring to using some sort of relatively plain wiring (whether or not coax is involved anywhere) to connect your scope to some low-frequency (<5MHz) circuit. That's a 1X probe of sorts and you would just use the scope with a 1M input, assuming you even have a choice.

author: BillyO
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2023, 03:30:38 am
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on September 17, 2023, 03:18:59 amSure, if frequencies are low enough you could use cab tire or microphone cable or whatever. Not an issue. I think we're on the same "wave length" here (really bad pun intended) that's why I said "Of course with audio frequencies it matters little". It would equally apply to AM radio and stuff in that range, but at least proper shielding should be used for small signal situations.Didn't really mean to start an argument.