EEVblog 1653 - Alkaline Battery Leakage Testing 2 - Electric Boogaloo - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 19, 2024, 01:15:21 am
content: Revisiting the alkaline battery leakage testing with a 555 circuit from a viewer.Final results of the first leakage testing:

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 21, 2024, 03:24:52 am
content: I thought I saw the title before... yes:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-1296-alkaline-battery-leakage-testing-2-electric-boogaloo/

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 21, 2024, 04:13:42 am
content: Quote from: amyk on November 21, 2024, 03:24:52 amd'oh!

author: ballsystemlord
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 21, 2024, 05:35:03 am
content: It's kinda odd that the viewer you speak of would suggest a resistor value for a circuit which you found to not work.Something else to consider is that if you leave the 1K resistor in the third LED blinker than you might not get the same results. I mean that in total the circuits draw 88mA maximum discharging but with only two of them discharging, you'll only be getting ~60mA maximum discharge or ~30mA for two circuits as opposed to ~30mA for three circuits. You might want to make a different circuit as the indicator.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 21, 2024, 10:05:49 pm
content: Quote from: ballsystemlord on November 21, 2024, 05:35:03 amHe read the resistor colour code backwards, it's 100k instead of 130R

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 21, 2024, 11:28:23 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on November 21, 2024, 10:05:49 pm4 band transposition error...? Brown/Black/Black/Orange read as Brown/Orange/Black/Black (That's my guess)

author: ballsystemlord
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 22, 2024, 12:32:59 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on November 21, 2024, 10:05:49 pmThat's way too easy to do. I need to create a thread some day asking how to *not* do that myself. With the lower tolerance resistors it's easier to avoid, but with the 20% ones, where you have to ask yourself which red to you read from, it's a lot harder.

author: Konkedout
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 22, 2024, 03:25:51 am
content: Copied from my LinkedIn Posthttps://www.linkedin.com/in/bob-zwicker-4b208b20/recent-activity/all/I posted this maybe 2 years ago:Alkaline batteries: I just had a look at a small inexpensive LED bicycle headlight which I bought around 2010. It is a "Cat eye" which I have used a fair amount but not in the last few years. It seems solidly built and still works great. I was curious about the batteries so opened it up. It takes 4 AA batteries brand name "Sunrise". Original batteries, ~13 years old, still going strong! I compare that to the Duracell which I buy from Costco. Our digital thermostat (used in winter only) takes two of the AAs. I schedule to replace those every 2 years and they usually go much longer than that. But I think it was last summer when one of them leaked on me after < 1 year of use, causing the LCD display to go blank. Fortunately the corrosive leak damage was not too severe. hashtag#batteries hashtag#brandname

author: RolandK
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 22, 2024, 08:15:04 am
content: I try to avoid alkaline batteries at all.Instead i use eneloop nimh cells. They have a very low internal resistance and high output voltage. Most battery devices accept them.My 2 aaa bicycle backlight uses the internal batterie resistance as current regulator. So with the eneloop it draws about 260 mA when they are fresh. This goes down a bit at the end.I put a small 3V bulb in series (just cut a trace on the pcb back side and soldered the bulb).Now it starts with 120mA and goes down to 90mA at the end and one charge keeps the whole winter.

author: ballsystemlord
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 22, 2024, 01:52:39 pm
content: Quote from: RolandK on November 22, 2024, 08:15:04 amI've found that NIMH cells tend to have a lower total mAh capacity compared to their non-rechargeable counterparts. So a lot of the time I end up using non-rechargeables for longer life span in things like DMMs.

author: Konkedout
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 23, 2024, 06:28:00 am
content: Yes. Rechargeables make sense only in high (or at least medium?) current drain applications. Maybe if you spend a lot of time measuring low value resistance with your DMM. I suppose that rechargeables might be good in an LED headlight, but not in my situation.My brother (into math but not an engineer) put rechargeable batteries into a wall clock. Not only would primary batteries need attention less often, but a good alkaline battery might even outlast a not-so-great NiMh battery?

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 23, 2024, 10:11:45 am
content: Live:

author: RolandK
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 23, 2024, 07:49:09 pm
content: Quote from: Konkedout on November 23, 2024, 06:28:00 amI have eneloops in all my DMMs, in all remotes, outside thermometer, bicycle lights, whatever. They do not leak. They have 2000mAh in size AA.Hard to find the capacity of std. batteries. Indeed i have one D and four Mignon Varta which came with a Simpson 260 and seem as old as the Simpson, all 5 still over 1.5 V and in as new condition.But nowadays batteries contain neither lead nor mercury anymore (good for environment), but they leak. The greatest problem are those things, where the batteries keep very long. You forget them and one day - the thing may still be working - the contacts and the pcb are destroyed. ONLY therefore i avoid batteries whenever possible.Quote from: Konkedout on November 23, 2024, 06:28:00 amI do not use not-so-great NiMh, only the best low self discharge NiMh.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 23, 2024, 08:12:17 pm
content: This one is interesting, he looks at batteries in a different light, that is how long do they stay within the operating voltage range of the device. because total mAh might be useless bullshit if you have a low voltage. If you use a boost converter to squeeze the cells, something seems to happen that makes gas or rust.nimh have a constant annoyance on some devices, like a fluke meter, because even if there is a substantial capacity left... the meter won't use it.I almost start to feel like the gadget manufacturers are kind of screwing us with cheap control electronics, because I suspect alot of cells might not leak if they don't get sucked totally dry. They don't protect themselvesAnd shitty soft switches.It really reminds me of the packaging problem with ketchup or mayonnaise, if you try to get more then 85% of the sauce out of the bottle,you end up with a high probability of having to mop the ceiling. And it kind of gets nasty because the sauce on the walls gets exposed to more air, so you don't really wanna eat that anyway. So you are left with eating out of a inconvenient jar that you need to 'scrape down' or eating out of a tooth paste tube. Or you have to put shady nanomaterials to reduce surface tension (I don't wanna eat that, rather throw it out)Also, you need to wonder about the proliferation of low ESR ceramic caps and cheap ultra low Ron transistors just generally hammering sources with inrushes during operation. No one was using 100uF ceramic caps when the batteries were in the 'good old days'. That 6.3V cap that loses half its capacity at 3V... it sure won't have that problem with the supply rail at 1.2V!!!! Suddenly its working to spec. Reminds me doing something like throwing a depleted uranium ingot into a bicycles 'grocery shelf'. Or the photonic induction washing machine video. The same circuits might have had a 2.5 ohm ESR electrolytic long ago, now replaced with 0.0015 ohm SMT mount ceramics in the low ESL sideways form factor so it fits a form factor betterI have a feeling the batteries don't like the high pulse currents that are getting really common in electronics. I wonder if going to a higher bat voltage to reduce the stain caused by power conversion might help things.And some hilarious results from copy cat engineers taking circuits connected to like... lithium polymer packs and reusing them for puny alkaline cells. It might need a redesign

author: ballsystemlord
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2024, 12:38:37 am
content: Quote from: Konkedout on November 23, 2024, 06:28:00 amI think you accidentally said that backwards. If you use the rechargeables in medium to high drain applications, you'll just drain them to death as you pointed out with the fluke DMM.So what you would have written is: "Yes. Non-rechargeables make sense only in high (or at least medium?) current drain applications. Etc..."

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2024, 12:48:11 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on November 19, 2024, 01:15:21 amI'm seriously thinking about discharging several brands of these batteries. Then I want to cut the bottom shell of the batteries off like about 15 mm off the bottom end (neg), clean all the battery gunk out, and wash it all clean with alcohol. Then I want to see what kinds of sealing each manufacturer is using at the bottom. That's where the failure is happening.

author: ballsystemlord
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2024, 12:51:01 am
content: Quote from: coppercone2 on November 23, 2024, 08:12:17 pmI'm surprised they've become so popular. I've always hated them.Quote from: coppercone2 on November 23, 2024, 08:12:17 pmI'm afraid it's a bit too late to avoid those nanomaterials. They're already being used in Tap-Magic, a machining fluid and make-up, among other things. So any machined part which you touch may have nanomaterials from the factory on them. And any woman you're around may be a walking talking source of them. This is without considering secondary surface transfer of nanomaterials.My suggestion would be to wash your hands -- and hope they don't have blasters (Star Wars joke). That's about all you can do.Quote from: coppercone2 on November 23, 2024, 08:12:17 pmWhat? Where?Quote from: coppercone2 on November 23, 2024, 08:12:17 pmIf the application does conversion at all. A lot of them won't work correctly when the battery is less than 1.45v. Most of the capacity, at that point, is still there from what I've read.As for leaking, all of the times I can recall I've had batteries leak they were not connected to anything or the thing was switched off with a physical switch. At least one of the batteries, an energizer, was only used in a vintage piece of equipment.Quote from: coppercone2 on November 23, 2024, 08:12:17 pmYou mean changing the connector to the AAA type?! Oh my how much effort I have to put in this week!!!

author: ballsystemlord
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2024, 12:59:26 am
content: The video, Duracell VS Rayovac AA Battery Test is worthless just like most battery testing videos IMHO.Electronics that run at 1.2v are few and far between in my experience.He never mentions whether he's testing alkaline, or alkaline and so called "heavy duty" cells.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2024, 06:30:24 am
content: Oh yeah I am not saying they don't leak randomly but they do it more when you drain them a bunch, like under 1V.Alot of devices pulse the shit out of batteries. Like PWM flashlights.You know why I think it has something to do with high pulses? I noticed those shitty wall clocks, they will drain the battery down to nothing. But it does not really leak that much for some reason. My clock really has a good track record of totally draining batteries but staying mostly alive.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2024, 06:39:13 am
content: Also I don't know if that is a typo or what...if a gadget stops working under 1.3V, its utilizing maybe.. 35% of the battery capacity? Super wasteful.If your device stops working before cells get to 1.2V, it means you need another cell, because that is screwing the life of the product. wtfloladd another battery and regulation so you can get it down to 1V with a functional device , then you are not screwing the batteries from useful capacitythis is a realistic graphhttps://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2c/AA_Alkaline_battery_energy_usage_-_discharge_current_100mA.svgLook at how much energy your wasting. You don't want to sqeeze it too hard, but jeez get it to ~1V at leastthe wisdom to use them up to the start of the 'slump' at the end. It has a brickwall response some where around 0.9V.

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2024, 12:52:57 pm
content: Dammit now I'm pissed! I went searching for different brands of battery I have in use and found this mess. A Yamaha remote for a stereo amp with Rayovac AAA batteries. One of them puked all over the spring connector. Just for fun i'm going to contact Rayovac and see what they do about it. The batteries have an expiration date of Feb 2031.

author: mikerj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 28, 2024, 10:32:39 pm
content: Quote from: xrunner on November 24, 2024, 12:48:11 amThey leak due to the build up of hydrogen internally, and you can only safely let the pressure build up so much. They need seals or some other feature that will rupture before high pressures are reached.

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 29, 2024, 12:01:23 am
content: Quote from: mikerj on November 28, 2024, 10:32:39 pmDidn't say that they didn't need to let pressure out. But some batteries leak internal chemicals and some apparently don't. So whats the difference between them? I have collected a few different AA batteries so far and the negative terminals are not all made the same, you can easily see that from just looking at the end.Many people say Duracells leak but as you can see I have been using Rayovacs because of those complaints about Duracells and what happened?? They leaked.In the pic you can see an off-brand called "Ignite" and a Duracell. The mechanical design of the negative ends are different. Why? Each group of engineers thinks their design is the way to go - why? That's what we really want to know.

author: Xena E
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 30, 2024, 06:15:38 pm
content: I do believe the theory, (not mine), that alkaline cells are most prone to leakage if intermittently discharged, or placed in very low drain devices such that they exceed their shelf life.Duracell are quite bad for this behavior but are by no means the only brand that do it. In fact there is so much contract manufacture, and brand prostitution being done, that to say one particular manufacturer product is better or worse at one time, may not hold at another.As for a particular circuit causing alkaline cells to leak, two young students presented me with a joulethief lamp that worked very well, sucking the last drop of energy from a cell, (switching off at ≈ 200mV), it causes such frequent leakage that the negative connection spring on their prototypes are greased to protect them from corrosion.If anyone is interested in trying the circuit for themselves, ask and I'll post a sketch.If you want absolutely guaranteed leakage then use zinc/carbon zinc/chloride: run them totally flat, and they will all shit their guts out, every single one.X

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 30, 2024, 11:56:31 pm
content: I actually see that rayovac is pretty god damn leaky compared to EN and DCthe 'zinc' cells... have a zinc body. its worse then steel cans used for the alkaline cells. you can crush them with one handThat is hydroxide, steel is actually quite resistant. Zinc is not. Hydroxide destroys basically everything except steel and some plastics.The big reason you can't have them stay under high pressure is because it will hurt you if it squirts in your face under high pressure, especially if its hot from a short. Additionally, you don't want it 'spraying out' into your battery cavity, because a small leak can sometimes be cleaned up (citric acid works the best to dissolve the crap and neutralize it), sometimes it won't harm nickel plated contacts too much. But if it sprays it will definately get into the PCB. Devices that have a far away battery cavity and wiring are way better for repairs. Sometimes I wonder if they should maybe use solid core wire for the battery cavity, since it won't wick that shit upI think the biggest deteriment to reliability of alkaline devices has been the "pcb mount' battery cavity. Like the tabs soldered to the PCB right next to a MCU. That thing is fucked if the battery goes. The other is cheap plastics with exceedingly low resistance to hydroxides. China mystery plastic. And then you have shitty plate jobs on the battery cavity terminals. I wonder if it has to do with minerals that react with hydroxide being added to plastic as 'filler'. Glass filled plastic should fare alot better then some minerals that will actually react with hydroxide! Then you get precipitates forming inside of the plastic and causing stress embrittlement.It kind of common sense, you would not put a gas generator into your house, it uses a extension cord.

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 01, 2024, 02:01:55 am
content: The battery seal is basically a plastic piston with a ring of bitumen. The KOH electrolyte is very caustic and attacks many materials.I can't see this seal design able to "burp" without leaking a bit, so that means it's the gas generation that is the first problem.My old (Duracell) AAA seal pics, pretty much the same as Energizer:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/alkaline-battery-leakage-testing-part-1/msg2253834/#msg2253834This was in a research paper:"Gas can form in all of these  batteries due to the corrosion of zinc. Zinc in the battery gets corroded into the electrolyte as the battery is used. This corrosion can cause electrolysis and can cause the generation of hydrogen gas in the canister. Build-up of hydrogen gas can cause the battery to leak, limiting the ability of the battery to function. Mercury suppresses this zinc corrosion, which is why it is added..."https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-1349-energizer-battery-leakage-made-in-usa/msg3348732/#msg3348732"... The closure members, since they are usually exposed to the elements contained within the cell are required to be substantially inert to such elements. As a result it has been preferred to utilize plastic e.g. nylon, polyethylene, polysulfone, and other generally inert materials for such members. In many cases, however the aforementioned materials have shortcomings such as cold flow under temperature cycling and imperfections in the surface area thereof. The metallic surface areas in contact therewith generally have imperfections as well. Thus, a cell electrolyte such as the common alkaline KOH utilized in many commercial cells (an aggressive leaking material) may leak, over a period of time, through such imperfections. Such leakage is in fact exacerbated by the hydrogen gas evolution common in alkaline cells which tends to push the electrolyte through the path of least resistance, i.e. the seal.""... The aliphatic or fatty polyamides are coated on sealing members such as grommets by means of a relatively expensive and complicated spraying procedure.""alkaline electrolyte battery container, cover, etc. tends to crawl the wall by capillary action to wet the sealing piece has the property that oozes to the outside from the sealing part of the battery. This behavior metal surface is connected to the negative electrode, i.e. it appeared strongly to the negative terminal side of the sealing portion, prone to leakage. This is commonly known as liquid leakage due to electrical capillary action..."Ref. to the patentshttps://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/alkaline-battery-leakage-testing-part-1/msg2251275/#msg2251275

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 05, 2024, 12:30:32 am
content: Quote from: xrunner on November 24, 2024, 12:52:57 pmReferring to the post above, I actually thought I'd try to get a refund for the damaged Yamaha remote from Rayovac. I know - I'm a masochist. I spent over a week of sending pictures of the damaged remote and leaking battery (they only do one question and reply per day), seemingly like I was at a legal trial. Well today they actually said they would send me a check for $14 to cover the cost of a new replacement remote which is available on Amazon.Miracles never cease!Quote

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 05, 2024, 03:50:54 am
content: Quote from: Xena E on November 30, 2024, 06:15:38 pmThat's because the zinc casing of those cells is actually one of the electrodes and gets consumed in use.

author: Xena E
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 05, 2024, 06:26:45 pm
content: Quote from: amyk on December 05, 2024, 03:50:54 amHistorically didn't happen so much I understand, however the thickness of the zinc has been reduced to the point it can be guaranteed that it looses integrity at end of life.As@coppercone2said they are so thin that they can be crushed between forefinger and thumb...( if they're ones that don't have a steel jacket, yes.)I have seen them leak around the + terminal seal whilst still servicable.

author: Kleinstein
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2024, 09:29:36 am
content: Quote from: Xena E on November 30, 2024, 06:15:38 pmThis makes perfectly sense. The current pulse can damage the oxide layer on the zinc and this way allow corrosion on the zinc to restart and produce hydrogen. Chances are large pulses with very low current in between could be especially bad.TV remotes are somewhat prone to cause leakage on the batteries. They take high current when used and essentially non most of the time.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2024, 02:50:57 pm
content: but I found TV remotes just leak a little but some devices cause them to spew their guts. In a tv remote I expect slight contamination, but some other stuff looks like cells get gibbed

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 08, 2024, 04:41:15 am
content: Quote from: xrunner on December 05, 2024, 12:30:32 amWell, congratulations!However, that would be a simple business decision. The $14 is a lot cheaper than further correspondence. Mind you, the initial exchanges would be necessary to weed out the less "masochistic".

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 09, 2024, 11:10:02 am
content: Just a note:I was cleaning something up yesterday that somebody else (not me) had let batteries leak into and I'd read on the Internet that lemon juice gets rid of the green gunk easily.I figured I'd give it a go.The affected battery terminals were the pull-out type so I pulled them out and dropped them in a yogurt pot with lemon juice and damn if it didn't make the green gunk vanish in no time, and no scrubbing needed.They were still tarnished underneath but the green gunk just disappeared.Try it!

author: Leuams
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2025, 01:28:36 pm
content: I was itching for a simple and easy project over the holidays so I built up one of these circuits and have left it running since the end of November. Today I just noticed the Rayovac batteries are leaking. I got one (more like 3)!