Apple vs. (US) National Association of Broadcasters (NAB) - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Richard Crowley
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 04, 2017, 01:57:14 am
content: The (US) National Association of Broadcasters (NAB) is out there making a case for Apple to enable FM broadcast reception in their devices. They claim (and I have seen no evidence otherwise) that the RF chipsets used in modern cell phones (including Apple) include FM broadcast band reception capability baked into the silicon. Most Android phones have FM reception enabled out of the box or else a 3rd party app (or 20) that enable FM reception. But Apple apparently steadfastly refuses to provide this feature. It was there several years ago (perhaps while Steve Jobs was still at the helm?), but recent versions of iGadgets have no FM reception.The strong case is made for emergency communication where broadcast radio is the #1 source of real-time information and even more in demand than ever with the increase in natural disasters happening around the planet.One straw-man argument for Apple NOT enabling FM broadcast reception is because it would cut into their iTunes business. If people could listen to music on (free) broadcast radio, Apple might see a drop in subscribers.However, it seems to me that a more likely reason could be that they are moving toward eliminating wired connections, including wired earbuds/earphones, etc. And there is no way to put a reasonably efficient antenna down at ~100MHz inside a typical cell phone handset, which is why they all appear to depend on the earbud wire as an external antenna.I am no fan of Apple products. I absolutely loathe my 5th generation iPod Touch and as soon as I can figure out how to unlock it, I am giving it to a friend. But it seems to me that providing effective FM broadcast reception without an earbud cord may be an insurmountable technical barrier.Ref:http://nab.org/advocacy/issue.asp?id=2354&issueid=3727

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 04, 2017, 02:15:56 am
content: Are you sure its not being used for something now?

author: Cyberdragon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 04, 2017, 02:27:51 am
content: *man walks into Apple HQ*"Excuse me, could you pretty please add this one tiny feature to make your products just a wee bit less shit?""WHAT...did you just say?! We have an entire company built on and based around making the most pointless and mediocre products in the world, and YOU want US to add a useful feature?! GET THE FUCK OUT OF MY OFFICE!!!"*man runs away*EDIT: If they ever do it, it will be an entirely separate radio dongle that just plugs into the lightning port for power. Since they despise simple headphones, it will have a nasty dangling wire or plate that goes on the back of the phone like a case. It would also cost $150

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 04, 2017, 02:41:17 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on November 04, 2017, 02:00:29 amIt's a nuanced, complicated issue. So areductio ad absurdumsimile dragging in fatal violence is not helpful, especially when the actual argument is about a service that might actually save lives (or might not, I await some intelligent arguments for either position).

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 04, 2017, 02:53:31 am
content: One reason for not including them is that in many countries, merelyowninga receiver makes you subject to paying broadcast fees. (Whether you use it or not is irrelevant.)Apple did put an FM tuner into a few of the very last iPod nano models, but that's it. Maybe their market research showed that people weren't using it anyway.In any case, I don't see NAB getting anywhere with this lawsuit, insofar as I doubt they have any kind of standing to sue. They probably don't have any relationship with Apple upon which standing might be established.As for the emergency services thing… yeah, because the mobile Internet hasn't worked highly effectively for this purpose for a freaking decade now…Basically, they saw that FCC weenie get his panties in a twist and thought they could ride on those coattails.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 04, 2017, 03:04:26 am
content: Quote from: Richard Crowley on November 04, 2017, 01:57:14 amThere are a lot of Android phones where FM radio seems to work OK with a third party app, but can you name any that work out of the box? FM radio used to be a common feature on phones in the early days of smart phones, but the built in apps seem to have mostly disappeared,

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 04, 2017, 03:05:20 am
content: Quote from: tooki on November 04, 2017, 02:53:31 amI see no mention of a lawsuit, or even the threat of one. They're just advocating that it ought to be thought about.Quote from: tooki on November 04, 2017, 02:53:31 amThere's plenty of people who keep their mobile data turned off and just use aspects of their phone that might use data on wifi. Me for one. I'm sure I'm in a minority nowadays, but it may not be a small minority. So if one were to rely on push data for emergency broadcasts one would be rapidly brought short. Also FM coverage is more than a little better than 'phone coverage - even remote areas that get no phone coverage at all usually get FM radio.

author: rdl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 04, 2017, 03:18:48 am
content: Years ago I bought aCreative MuVo. Still have it actually. It got used far more for FM radio than as an mp3 player. Heck, it may have been used more as a flash drive than an mp3 player.Quote from: tooki on November 04, 2017, 02:53:31 am

author: Richard Crowley
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 04, 2017, 03:34:45 am
content: Quote from: tooki on November 04, 2017, 02:53:31 amIt is not any kind of legal action that I can see. The NAB is attempting to enourage the general public and Apple customers in particular to put pressure on Apple. I don't think the campaign has a snowball's chance in the desert, but they are advocating on behalf of their members.QuoteNot hardly. When you are up to your hips in floodwaters or hiding in the bathtub to escape the hurricane, you don't have the time or the attention span to do any fiddly online surfing of the interweb. Besides those hundreds of cell towers that your wireless data depend on are also flooded or blown down, so most cell services (voice, message, data) are down as well. Broadcasters have much more beefy emergency resources with backup generators, backup transmitters, backup antennas and sometimes even complete backup transmitting and studio sites. Orders of magnitude more resilient than cell services anywhere on the planet. Not even close.

author: Richard Crowley
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 04, 2017, 03:50:46 am
content: Quote from: coppice on November 04, 2017, 03:04:26 amThe issue isn't whether it is included or 3rd party from the "store". The issue is whether the FM receiver is deliberately disabled by the manufacturer. Both my previous HTC One and current Moto G5+ work fine as FM receivers.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 04, 2017, 04:01:49 am
content: Quote from: Richard Crowley on November 04, 2017, 03:50:46 amYou said a lot of phones work out of the box, and I was wondering which ones you had found that did.Its not actually that easy to find a proper FM radio app for Android. Search the Play Store for "FM radio" and you get lots of hits, but most are actually just internet streaming apps.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 04, 2017, 04:32:18 am
content: Quote from: Cyberdragon on November 04, 2017, 02:27:51 amThose already exist for Android. Cost is about $10 for the cheap ones to $25 for a nice one. They also do quite a bit more than just FM, including many of the ham bands. And the app is free.https://github.com/demantz/RFAnalyzer

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 04, 2017, 05:16:25 am
content: Pretty much every phone out of the USA has a built in FM radio, from the cheapest feature phone to the top end ones here, all have both FM radio and a built in app.Any device that has different firmware for different countries you find out the non US version has a FM radio, but the US version on the same firmware there is no radio.

author: BrianHG
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 04, 2017, 07:12:02 am
content: FM Radio reception on cell phones in the US and Canada is hardware blocked. International versions of the same phone will work with Android FM radio software. It has to do with selling data and making $$$.Story here:http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/fm-radio-cellphone-telecoms-1.3577447https://www.cnet.com/how-to/unlock-the-secret-fm-tuner-in-your-android-phone/

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 04, 2017, 10:25:12 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on November 04, 2017, 06:29:29 amThink about wavelength for a second (FM ~100MHz), think about the size of the phone...I leave RF to the guys in the black cowls sacrificing chickens, and if I can see why there's a difference between near-field RFID, 3000mm wavelength FM and 150mm odd wavelength LTE/CDMA then anybody can.

author: stmdude
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 04, 2017, 10:34:51 am
content: Oh, dear. The conspiracy theories are out tonight.So, I can't speak for Apple, but I've worked for one of the top 5 smartphone makers, and I've been part of the decision-process to bring in FM radio or not into a new series of devices.The major reasons _not_ to enable the FM receiver hardware was:1. The use-case is counter-intuitive. The user has to attach corded headphones (the shield is used as the antenna), which doesn't make the feature usable at any time. Sure, we had pretty cool antenna engineers, but the RF environment within the phone is already pretty darn crowded. Also, getting a signal with a wavelength as long as 100MHz into the phone (as in, past the casing) takes work.2. Enabling the FM receiver also enables the FM _transmitter_ block. This means that we would have to do type-approval in _many_ more countries, as there's a special series to tests that has to be done for FM TX, and they're governed on a per-country basis.3. There are regional differences in what FM frequencies you should be able to tune to, as well as the spacing between the channels. Meaning, we would have to detect their geolocation and look that up in a table. Sure, there's some homogony within the EU, but people do travel to other parts of the world.4. There's little to no demand from the actual end-users.If a carrier explicitly requests it, we'll enable it in their carrier-specific firmware, but otherwise, it's not worth the hassle.At no point was "our online music store", "our carriers music store" or any other economic factor besides "are the end-user willing to pay for this?" considered.

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 04, 2017, 12:54:18 pm
content: Quote from: stmdude on November 04, 2017, 10:34:51 amQuoteI know RF's tough, but I didn't realise you had to take the local flora into account! I think perhaps you meant homogeneity.

author: ebclr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 06, 2017, 04:38:16 pm
content: " Broadcom is exploring buying $81 billion Qualcomm"I smell apple hands on this

author: metrologist
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 06, 2017, 08:18:19 pm
content: Quote from: Richard Crowley on November 04, 2017, 03:50:46 amMy M7 One FM radio was disabled by the carrier.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 06, 2017, 10:49:15 pm
content: The real case here is that no one with any spending power wants programmed media any more. It’s about choice. NAB want to retain their force feeding model whereas everyone wants to use demand streaming or cached media. Apple are in the streaming market, and the worst bit for NAB, the non advertising driven streaming market.Dying industry complaining because the world is changing. The next step is lobbying and legal shenanigans which will amount to nothing.