Reprogramming PMR frequencies and German law - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / rf-microwave

author: frozenfrogz
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2017, 07:26:49 am
content: Dear Forum,this may be a little OT, but since I am not registered to any radio board I thought this is the place to get some answers anyhowI have a couple of PMR/Freenet handheld devices (Team TeCom-Duo C). In September, the PMR frequency band in Germany has been broadened by 8 additional channels *yay*Sadly, there is no firmware update available so far and the manufacturer told me they are waiting for a suitable software but can not say when this will happen xDThere is however an option to program the new frequencies via a software that is not for the customer, but only supplied to re-sellers and service (which I happen to have obtained). The only problem is, that programming the additional channels comes with a side issue: It will open up options only available to certified amateur radio operators. The TeCom-Duo comes in versions C (PMR/Freenet @ max. 500mW ERP) and H (HAM, 144-146 MHz & 430-440 MHz @ max. 5W) based on the same hardware as it seems. So after the 'hack' I would be able to select a higher broadcasting strength, wider channel modulation etc.Can someone tell me if it is still legal to operate the device after reprogramming? My "gut feeling" tells me: As long as I am operating within the strict specifications for PMR, I am not doing anything wrong - but then again German laws are a pain in the butt from time to time.Regards, Frederik

author: TheUnnamedNewbie
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2017, 08:02:45 am
content: I'm not sure about the legal part. I think, as long as you don't operate it outside of legal bands and powers, you should be fine. My reasoning for this is, if I go and build my own amplifier capable of too strong signals, I'm not doing anything illegal. Only when I actually start broadcasting too strong signals or signals in bands I'm not allowed to broadcast in, I'm breaking laws.What I do know is, I use these things a lot as well (airsoft). I know a lot of people that use non-legal radios at events - way more powerfull than allowed (a few watts is not uncommon), in frequency band that aren't really legal, ... And they have never had any issues with it.As long as no HAM in the area you are using them is complaining, nobody will likely even know they are breaking laws.Not really an answer, just my 5 cents.

author: borjam
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 03, 2017, 08:47:58 am
content: Quote from: frozenfrogz on April 03, 2017, 07:26:49 amOperating in the ham bands (144-146 MHz and 430-440 MHz) is legalif and only if you are a licensed ham. For a licensed ham it's legal to modify commercial equipment in order to make it operate in the ham bands but, of course, subject to the authorized frequency bands, maximum power levels, modulation techniques, spurious emissions, etc.

author: frozenfrogz
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2017, 10:36:43 am
content: To clear things up (sort of):I know, that I need a certificate to TX on HAM frequencies.After talking to some people at the "Bundesnetzagentur" (federal network agency here in Germany) I got an answer stating that there is no problem as long as:A) only sending on the PMR frequencies with the general specifications (max. .5W ERP, narrow modulation,...)B) only listening to the HAM frequenciesC) The device is still subject to the declaration of conformity by the manufacturerThe first two are no problem, but the manufacturer told me the device will lose its allowance due to the fact that it is then possible to operate in "the open VCO mode" (still need to find out about what that means).:/

author: janoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2017, 10:37:25 am
content: Quote from: frozenfrogz on April 03, 2017, 07:26:49 amI don't know the German law, but radios meant for unlicensed bands (PMR, CBs, etc) are typically subject to general type approval/general license (aka the manufacturer/importer has to have it certified as compliant with the law) before being allowed to be sold. That also implies a ban on any modifications - such as changing power levels or adding external high gain antennas and such.If you reprogram it, it won't match its certification anymore and thus would most likely be illegal for an unlicensed person to operate (maybe even own - not sure how it is in Germany) because its original certification (and thus general license) will be invalid.I would be also worried that the reprogramming may have other effects - e.g. the used bandwidth on the extra frequencies may be too wide or there will be some interference due to the operation of the radio in a way that manufacturer didn't intend. For HAM it is ok - they have their license and it is their responsibility that their equipment is compliant with the rules. However, it is not ok for general public.Now, whether you get caught or not is another matter. If it is only for your personal use and you are careful about where you transmit and with what power, you might be ok in the sense that the chances of getting caught and fined are low. That doesn't mean you are not breaking the rules or that I condone it but lets be realistic here - nobody is going to chase a walkie-talkie user somewhere in the woods unless they interfere with other traffic (e.g. HAM or airband).However, if you are planning on selling/giving the radios away to others, I wouldn't do it. You never know what the other person may do with it and you will be exposing yourself to a potentially big problem.

author: janoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2017, 10:43:18 am
content: Quote from: frozenfrogz on April 03, 2017, 10:36:43 am"Open VCO" just means that the device can tune to (and transmit) on any frequency within its capability. Normally the frequencies where an unlicensed person is not allowed to transmit are locked out and the radio tunes "in steps" - by channels, not continuously.So the manufacturer is right - the device won't comply with its certification (which expressly requires that the device is able to transmit only on the fixed set of frequencies) and the device will be illegal to operate for an unlicensed person.

author: janoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2017, 10:51:34 am
content: Quote from: TheUnnamedNewbie on April 03, 2017, 08:02:45 amThat's generally the case, but do check your local laws - some countries actually prohibit also the mere ownership of such equipment by unlicensed persons. It is rare, but such rules still do exist.Quote from: TheUnnamedNewbie on April 03, 2017, 08:02:45 amOr as long as you don't interfere/splatter over the adjacent air band. That'swaymore likely to get you in trouble than some HAMs listening. For a HAM it is extra paperwork to do and when the authorities come to investigate, the interfering radio user is long gone.On the other hand, if you are interfering with the radio traffic of a nearby airport, youwillhave cops there in no time. You don't even need to explicitly transmit on the air band frequencies - the illegal amplifiers and mods often cause the radio to produce splatter/interference on the wide portion of the band around the frequency where you are transmitting.It is really a bad idea.

author: borjam
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 03, 2017, 10:53:58 am
content: Quote from: frozenfrogz on April 03, 2017, 10:36:43 amDo it, the exams are pretty easy! And, really, there's a lot of fun experimentation you can do being a licensed ham.QuoteThen you are out of luck.Why don't you do the exam and get licensed?

author: frozenfrogz
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2017, 11:45:47 am
content: Thank y'all for the repliesAfter reading a bit more into german laws, the compliance really seems to be an issue. Most interestingly you are not allowed to use PMR with a HAM radio, because it is not tested to comply to the regulations (type approval test) of PMR.I see where this is coming from, but oh my...SRC / UBI certificate are what I am looking at right now and maybe LRC in the future and also HAM as a "you never know" option. The SRC/UBI will definitely come in handy and are required when operating certain vessels near the coast and inland waterways.Then again I am just getting started with sorting everything out. All the regulations, different frequencies and technologies do not exactly help when trying to get a grasp on the matter in general. Every frequency range seems to grow its own subculture in a way xDRegards,Frederik

author: janoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2017, 12:36:14 pm
content: Quote from: frozenfrogz on April 03, 2017, 11:45:47 amNo, with a HAM license you are allowed to transmit only in the HAM bands - which PMR frequencies are not (it is different service and thus different licensing req). And a HAM radio gear cannot be used in the PMR bands because, as you were correctly told, it is not built to the legal requirements of that band, so it wouldn't be possible to certify it as compliant.Quote from: frozenfrogz on April 03, 2017, 11:45:47 amI think you need to figure out what you want to do first. The requirements for different frequencies/radios are very different, because they fall under different services (as defined by ITU). If you only want to chit-chat with friends on PMR or CB, you don't need a license (even if you use a portable radio from a boat), just stick with legal radios.If you want to experiment with radio or build your own gear, then the best way to do so is amateur radio license. The requirements are not too stiff anymore and it opens up a lot of space for playing around and learning.If you want tooperatea boat, airplane, etc (as opposed to taking a ride on one - i.e. you are in control), there are specific licenses required for using the on-board radio equipment (radio, various transponders, radar, satellite comms ...) and talking to the ground services (coast guard, ports, ATC, etc), typically for the VHF telephony - your SRC/UBI, LRC is short wave + satellite for naval officers.You will find what you need when working towards the respective permits (boat captain, private pilot, etc.). Do keep in mind that thosedo notallow you to operate in any other bands/any other service - so a licensed boat captain is not allowed to use a HAM radio (and vice versa - HAM to operate a marine radio). However, unless you are doing your captain's license or a pilot's permit, you most likely don't need any of this.

author: frozenfrogz
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2017, 01:15:30 pm
content: Quote from: janoc on April 03, 2017, 12:36:14 pmYes, I became aware of that and was just thinking about things that seem a little odd at first. Meaning that the hardware itself is left unchanged and operating within the specified PMR frequencies would be up to me - especially since I could legally own a HAM radio for listening anyway. But then again there seem to be very strict regulations on devices that are allowed to operate on PMR and Freenet. From an evident point of view one would suggest, that - since anyone is allowed to use the PMR frequencies within the specifications - there would be no problem whatsoever with any device that does not exceed 500mW and the proper modulation etc.But as somehow everything needs to be restricted because of some people that might(?!) screw up, only devices are allowed that under no circumstances can operate outside of the specifications. That is just ignorant.QuoteI do not own a boat master’s certificate and am not going to go in that direction, but I do own a license for motor boats / sail boats. I might need it for chartering a yacht, that is why SRC/UBI is the next thing I am looking at. Apart from that, HAM seems to be a versatile add-on, because mostly you are near the coast anyway and chances are good you can get someone on the speaker for useful information, or even use Winlink for Email!

author: borjam
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 03, 2017, 01:20:22 pm
content: Quote from: janoc on April 03, 2017, 12:36:14 pmOf course, the ham license grants you enormous privileges not available to other radio users(*),but of course only within the ham frequency bands.But do creative radio experiments in the VHF air band only if you want your gonads to be cut with a chainsaw!That's the reason why there is an exam. You can cause enormous trouble by doing stupid things with radio equipment. It might even cause loss of life. The exam is pretty easy, it's just a filter to find out wether you have a bare minimum of knowledge. At the same time, it's important to have a registry of hams. In case of trouble the telecommunication authority might need to verify if you are causing it accidentally. In Spain we even have a legal requirement to help in case of catastrophe.(*) You can use self designed/built equipment, you can modify commercial equipment, etc. No other users can do that.

author: janoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2017, 02:40:18 pm
content: Quote from: frozenfrogz on April 03, 2017, 01:15:30 pmNo, that is not at all ignorant. Why you and me may know the rules - allowed power, types of modulation, allowed bandwidth, etc. most people who buy and operate those PMR radios don't (and even if they did, they wouldn't have the equipment and skills needed to make sure their radios comply). And the potential for damage is really enormous.I remember this from CB - there it is not at all uncommon for Johny Trucker to complain to his buddy that he cannot be heard over all that noise, so he gets told to buy "an amp" from eBay or from Aliexpress. And Johny Trucker is now completely happy, he can be heard for hundreds of miles now because he is pushing 800W or even a kilowatt out, SSB to boot - where 5W FM were allowed. Of course he can be heard now because he rolls right over everyone else, preventing any other communication from taking place. The problem? His radio is now heard on 2-3 channels adjacent to the one he is transmitting on too (splatter). And in summer he is causing interference worldwide, thanks to the sporadic E layer. I remember hearing stations from as far as Brazil on my CB when the conditions were good.PMR is the same (well, except for the sporadic E propagation) - the 70cm band shares allocation with the HAM radio bands in some places, satellite downlinks, aircraft traffic, railways use it, boats use it, emergency services use 70cm, some cellphone networks used it (NMT) and there are all sorts of other things there.People are doing stupid things - you have yourself mentioned those airsofters with amplifiers and transmitting on illegal frequencies - either outside of the channel raster (thus causing interference to the users of the nearby channels) or completely out of the PMR band (e.g. in HAM band or airband). These restrictions are meant to prevent ignorant people from causing potentially catastrophic problems - someone could be calling for help and won't be heard because of an ignorant idiot playing airsoft with an illegal radio splattering from a nearby frequency.Quote from: frozenfrogz on April 03, 2017, 01:15:30 pmThat's a good plan.Just keep in mind that connecting to internet over HAM radio may not be legal - there is a general restriction on carrying commercial traffic over HAM radio and also some authorities consider such internet <-> HAM radio gateways to be equivalent to allowing unlicensed person to operate the transmitter. It is ridiculous, but e.g. that's the long held view of the Slovak Telecomunications Office (where I am licensed). As always, check your local rules before you do it.

author: janoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2017, 02:43:21 pm
content: Quote from: borjam on April 03, 2017, 01:20:22 pmI know, I am licensed myself73!, Jan OM2ATC

author: Lord of nothing
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2017, 06:08:28 pm
content: QuoteIn my case because it cost a lot of money.Quote from: a(It mean Class A -> D) / Montly Tax.+ once for the exam + Callsign.QuoteThat is what I want to say. If you manipulate the Radio in anyway its fall out of the legal PMR446 definition.QuoteSome Info in German:https://www.bmvit.gv.at/ofb/funk/funkdienste/index.htmlYou can get the Certificate without a Pilot Licence or Ship Patent if you pass the Test.In Austria the Qestion who could be asked could found here:https://www.bmvit.gv.at/ofb/funk/funkzeugnis/fragen/index.htmlQuoteThats just a German think.QuoteMaybe in Spain. Here in Austria the want know many thinks. Many people dont pass the test.QuoteIn Austria its simmilar but when I look on the infrastructure what HAM use.Some of then want transfer a 10Mb PDF over an Packet Radio Transmission.QuoteThe PMR446 is European wide in use.So Analog PMR446 is total rubbish. Here in the City of Vienna you cant use it because the Channels are full with Kids, Construction Workers, Cab Driver,...If found this nice chart:By the ETSI Definition TDMA is legal!What Germany expand the Analog to the Digi Band isThe interesting part will be what People could or could no do the with "New Upper band" PMR446 in Country who are limitied to the "Lower band".

author: frozenfrogz
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2017, 10:15:09 pm
content: Thanks for the bmvit links - a good place to start fromThe PMR frequencies from your table are identical to what is used in Germany as well. In September 2016 eight additional channels from 446.10625 MHz to 446.19375 MHz, also 12.5 kHz channel width, were introduced.dPMR, or DMR Tier I has 8 channels @12.5 kHz width, or 16 channels @6.25 kHz width from 446.1 to 446.2 MHz - the latter seemingly to be what is programmed in most devices on the market. The digital frequencies are also identical for Germany to what your table states and can be used by anyone without further certification apart from the manufacturers certificate of conformity.So basically, you are allowed to use 446 MHz to 446.2 MHz for PMR, where from 446.1 MHz you can opt for digital or analog. I am not exactly sure if it was a good decision to also crowd the digital channels with the "new" analog channels in addition to the already narrow 16 digital channels, but since it is meant for everyone to play around with, my guess is that no one wanted to sacrifice more valuable bandwidth for the nitwit’s radio

author: Lord of nothing
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2017, 10:27:50 pm
content: QuoteBecouse the are in Europe the same.Quotemeep wrong....dPMR -> FDMA -> 6,25khz Channel -> 16 Physical ChannelsDMR -> TDMA -> 12,50khz Channel with 2 Timeslots -> 8 Physical ChannelsQuoteIn Germany... not in all EU Country!!!QuoteYes and No:Yes -> The Analog Radios have in the City more ChannelsNo -> all Digital User are screwed up. What I read Digi is very common in the UK.We are here not in a European Forum so I could say that my Radios are not fall into PMR446......and I know why.

author: borjam
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 04, 2017, 06:27:04 am
content: Quote from: Lord of nothing on April 03, 2017, 06:08:28 pmI would recommend you to contact the Osterreichischer Versuchssenderverband (OEVSV). National associations use tooffer free classes and they have sample exams to see how well you do it.As far as I know the exam content is regulated by an international agreement, HAREC, and it should be pretty similar amongdifferent countries. I don't think it's easier in Spain. If it was, Austria wouldn't accept my HAREC exam certificate. And they do.https://www.iaru-r1.org/index.php/operating-abroadHave a look here for some sample question pools:https://www.iaru-r1.org/index.php/regulatory-affairs/examination-question-poolsQuoteYou can try the newer digital variants of PMR, although the equipment is much, much more expensive.

author: borjam
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 04, 2017, 06:35:34 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on April 04, 2017, 12:37:29 amRadio spectrum is a very crowded resource with many applications. Any frequency band not explicitly allowed is restricted. Even ham bands have restrictions.In this particular case, restrictions on public use bands (such as PMR, ISM, CB, etc) are meant not only to avoid trouble, but to allow the band to be shared by many users. Imagine that I decide to broadcast television on the PMR446 band. I find a suitably high point, and I place a TV repeater pumping 1 or 2 KW of power. That would make PMR unusable for anyone in a large area.Regarding interference, the problem is that maybe you don't notice, but legitimate users do. One of the visible effects of interference, for instance, is the trouble caused for meteorologic radars by unscrupulous WISPs (wireless ISPs). This is an example in Spain's Mediterranean coast. It's full of tourists and retired expats who run their own, sometimes shady, WISPs. And all those straight linescentered on the radar site are caused by them.http://www.aemet.es/es/eltiempo/observacion/radar?w=1&p=vaThese sources of interference are actively hunted in a game of whack-a-mole.

author: borjam
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 04, 2017, 07:20:54 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on April 04, 2017, 06:56:15 amYes, but the law specifies that you can only do that with equipment that has been tested and explicitly approved for that band,which is not the case. I agree that in many cases the regulations can be a bit overkill, but, how many PMR users have thecapacity to make sure that they are not causing harmful interference to someone else?By the way, it's not just German law, but European Union law. It's mostly the same across the EU.QuoteOf course. I just wanted to explain why some of the rules are in place.

author: janoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2017, 08:55:22 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on April 04, 2017, 12:37:29 amYour modified device could cause interference e.g. because it is transmitting with higher power than it should or because it uses more bandwidth than it should now. You don't know what exactly the reprogramming does - it is rarely just locking out of frequencies. It could disable some filters or change their characteristics too in order to allow working in the HAM bands, for example - but now these are used while working on the PMR frequencies too and the radio doesn't fulfill the technical requirements anymore.The problem is that unless you check the signal with a good receiver or a spectrum analyzer, you will most likely never know that you device has this issue.It certainly has nothing to do with any copyright or anything but it is a straight violation of the telecommunication rules/law regulating access to the PMR band.QuoteIn theory you can be asked by an inspector from the regulator to hand your device over to check. The rules may even require that you actually possess the required connectors/adaptors so that the officials can verify the compliance (this is usually for HAM gear, though).I haven't heard about these spot checks being done, but it is not completely out of question if you e.g. get pulled over by the police, they see the radio in the car and they really want to find something wrong - they could ask you for the paperwork (which you are expected to have) and check whether the radio has the requisite stickers and is not modified.On the other hand, it is very rare that "nobody reports interference" - lets not be naive or disingenuous here, most people who make these mods do them so that they can use the radios with higher power or on "unofficial" frequencies to avoid crowding.

author: janoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2017, 09:06:19 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on April 04, 2017, 06:56:15 amNo,it is not legal.That the frequency in question is assigned to PMR is immaterial - the OP themselves posted the reason why. There are 3 criteria - the radio must operate on the approved frequency (probably OK), with approved modulation and power level (OK) andmust have a type approval to operate in PMR band. The last point is not satisfied anymore if the radio is modified, because it was not approved/certified like that. This was confirmed by both the regulator and the manufacturer/importer. So what are we still discussing here?Yes, the chance of him being caught are low unless he does something royally stupid - but that doesn't make it any less illegal.You are not allowed to modify the PMR gear, period. That includes using unapproved antennas, amplifiers, reprogramming ("unlocking") the radio, etc. Or rather - if you do then you are not allowed to use it as PMR radio anymore, only as HAM radio, if you have the requisite license.HAM radio users are explicitly allowed to modify and build their own gear and are themselves responsible for compliance with the rules. This capability does not exist for any other service, as defined by ITU (which includes PMR,CB, air radio, marine radio, etc.) - there it is always the responsibility of the manufacturer/importer and all equipment used has to be certified as compliant with the requirements of that service. This certification requirement pretty much makes any "homebrewing" or "modding" impossible and illegal.For that radio to become legal as PMR radio, the manufacturer/importer has to perform the mod (firmware change)and then demand a new/updated certification. Only then the new version will be legal to use on the new frequencies. It is not something the user can do themselves, regardless of whether they are technically capable to modify the radio or not.

author: Lord of nothing
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2017, 02:55:34 pm
content: QuoteNo I never talk with the Snobs!QuoteI got some Radios from Ebay. Dont ask which or what kind of of System it is.Quotelol... here in Austria its is silent. Just a Handvoll Company ever use a Radio System because the monthly cost are 100% higher that a Consumer (!!!) Cellphone Contract. For very big System like Public Transport its ok but for small Businesses not.QuoteNobody is that stupid.QuoteI think the would check your mental health first.QuoteYou think the Chinese Children Radios are better than "professional" Radios?Quotelol?! My dad drives often around and the last time he get pulled over was ~10 Years ago?Does the Police in your Country check any Radios?! Realy? Here in Austria 98% of the Police dont know what a CB Radio is.Check the Paperwork?Looking for Complaints Sticks?!The other interesting question is does radios are legal who send on Freqs who are in the Country are not for that?

author: janoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2017, 08:39:29 pm
content: Quote from: Lord of nothing on April 04, 2017, 02:55:34 pmPity that your dad didn't teach you a bit of humility and respect for others.Come to France and you will see. Especially if you show this sort of attitude to the gendarmerie on the motorway. And yeah, they do search cars, especially ones with foreign plates - mostly looking for drugs. Dealers use radios for their "go fasts" - convoy of 2-3 fast cars where the first one is checking terrain and the middle one carries a large stash of drugs. So the police is well used to look for these.

author: Lord of nothing
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2017, 08:47:57 pm
content: I got my drugs from the Pharmacy. My doc give me everything I want.I never will be drive on a Street in France becouse I have no Driver licence or a Car.So back to the PMR446. It could be very interesting what happen if the OP will use his (in the Future) legal Radio with the Upper channels in a Country who have no Analog in the Upper Channel.

author: janoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2017, 09:03:15 pm
content: Quote from: Lord of nothing on April 04, 2017, 08:47:57 pmBut you know for sure that these things are never looked into by police when a car gets pulled overQuote from: Lord of nothing on April 04, 2017, 08:47:57 pmThen the "future legal" radio wouldn't be legal to use in that manner in that country or maybe not even legal to use at all, depending on where the original certification was done (e.g. EU certificates are recognized EU-wide, but the individual countries are allowed to impose certain restrictions).

author: Lord of nothing
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2017, 09:11:21 pm
content: Quotesure because nobody here cares about Radios. And I talked to my Dad and the say that he never was pulled over in the last years.

author: janoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2017, 09:42:18 pm
content: I haven't been pulled over by police in the last 15 years of driving all over Europe and so what?That doesn't mean others are not or that the police doesn't care.

author: Lord of nothing
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 05, 2017, 04:22:15 pm
content: Quotethats why I us just encrypt Systems.QuoteThe Gov. have a list where this points are.Its funny on a demonstration the use there Cellphones.QuoteIn Austria quite all of them use Digital Encrypt Tetra Network.