EEVblog 1557 - Micsig SigOFIT Optical Fibre Probe + GaN Experiment - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 03, 2023, 01:05:20 am
content: Review of the new Micsig SigOFIT Optical Fibre oscilloscope probe, including a practical demonstation of the incredible CMRR range of opticallly isolated probing of a 300V GaN transistor driver circuit.And a direct comparison with the HVP-70 high voltage differential probe to show you the incredible game changing difference an optical fibre probes makes.https://www.micsig.com/SigOFIT/CMRR Explained video:Links:https://www.infineon.com/dgdl/Infineon-1EDF5673K-DataSheet-v02_04-EN.pdfhttps://www.infineon.com/dgdl/Infineon-ApplicationNote_CoolGaN_600V_emode_HEMTs_-Driving_CoolGaN_high_electron_mobility_transistors_with_EiceDRIVER_%201EDI_Compact-AN-v01_00-EN.pdfhttps://www.infineon.com/dgdl/Infineon-ApplicationNote_CoolGaN_600V_emode_HEMTs-AN-v01_00-EN.pdfhttps://www.infineon.com/dgdl/Infineon-ApplicationNote_EvaluationBoard_EVAL_1EDF_G1_HB_GAN-ApplicationNotes-v01_03-EN.pdfhttps://www.infineon.com/dgdl/Infineon-GalliumNitride_CoolGaN_emode_HEMTs-ProductSelectionGuide-v01_01-EN.pdfhttps://www.infineon.com/dgdl/Infineon-IGOT60R070D1-DataSheet-v02_14-EN.pdfhttps://www.infineon.com/dgdl/Infineon-ProductBrief_GalliumNitride_CoolGaN_600V_e-mode_HEMTs-ProductBrief-v03_00-EN.pdfhttps://www.infineon.com/dgdl/Infineon-SolutionBrief_CoolGaN_and_GaN_EiceDRIVER-ProductBrief-v01_00-EN.pdfDemo board:https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/infineon-technologies/EVAL1EDFG1BHBGANTOBO1/1354855800:00 - Micsig SigOFIT Optical Fibre Probe vs Active FET02:25 - High Voltage Differential Limitation and why you might need an Optical Fibre probe03:25 - Galvanically isolated, and power-over-fibre04:39 - Comparison with the Tek IsoVu & Lecroy DL-ISO05:55 - The CMRR is AMAZING!07:15 - A look at the SigOFIT probe10:04 - An optical fibre probe is NOT a high voltage differential probe!10:40 - Practical example using a 600V Gallium Nitride GaN circuit demo11:39 - What is a Gallium Nitride (GaN) Transistor?13:23 - GaN / HEMT, and Silicon Carbide SiC Transistors14:21 - IGOT60R070D1 600V GaN datasheet & Half Bridge switching configuration15:30 - This is IMPOSSIBLE with a regular probe!19:07 - GaN EiceDRIVER chip19:54 - The practical GaN test setup23:10 - Remote MXO4 scope control to take measurements24:36 - High side GaN power transistor measurement with the SigOFIT26:26 - Here is where the CMRR MAGIC happens!27:41 - Comparison with HVP-70 High Voltage Differential Probe28:45 - Look how the High Voltage Differential Probe is just horrible here!31:56 - Baseline High Voltage Differential probe ringing vs SigOFIT32:21 - Noise measurement36:27 - Conclusion

author: dobsonr741
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2023, 06:32:51 pm
content: Amazing! How would anyone go about making a diy version of an optically isolated probe, both on signal and power side? If not the full cable length opto isolation, then perhaps with optoisolators?

author: BrianHG
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2023, 07:07:06 pm
content: Quote from: dobsonr741 on August 03, 2023, 06:32:51 pmI was searching for it, but, the thread is gone.There existed here at eevblog a 10$ LED with photodiode based isolated probe where 10MHz bandwidth was achieved. Cant find it anymore. The probe side could have been powered by battery.A laserdiode would probably give far better bandwidth.<2.5ns photodiodes for the RX are cheap today.It's the voltage drift calibration which would be most difficult to contain with an analog design.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 04, 2023, 11:51:48 am
content: It's amazing what's possible today. The performance of the EEVblog differential probe stood up quite well, I thought. I guess the capacitance on the input to the probe could quickly become a real problem when measuring gate voltages?Quote from: BrianHG on August 03, 2023, 07:07:06 pmIs this the thread you were thinking of?https://www.eevblog.com/forum/beginners/floating-probe!-for-$2-50/?all

author: Weston
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 04, 2023, 10:34:24 pm
content: Was it a loaner and they did not want you taking it apart? It would be cool to see the insides where the magic happens.I was also interested in creating a DIY fiber isolated probe a while ago.I forgot where I saw them, but there were internal photos of the saker fiber isolated probes somewherehttps://saker-mv.com/fiber-isolated-voltage-probe/.The optics package does not look too complicated, and at least for the Saker probe it looks like they are directly modulating a led / laser diode. I think the tek fiber probe uses some sort of electro-optical modulator. I assume that has better linearity / less drift.They are not stocked on Digikey, but you can buy some pretty fast fiber coupled laser diodes and photodiodes with high bandwidth for <$100. I ran some quick figures on the noise figures a while ago and it seemed like you could get at least 70dB of dynamic range with 100MHz+ bandwidth. The biggest challenge is compensating for drift and any non-linearity (or biasing it to reduce non-linearity). I was curious if you could use the back-face monitor photodiode that some laser diodes have to linearize the system but I never found any values for bandwidth of it.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 05, 2023, 12:19:08 am
content: Quote from: Weston on August 04, 2023, 10:34:24 pmThey advised me not taking it apart as I wouldn't see anything. They implied it was potted or some such. Whether that is a ruse or not I don't know. I'll have a crack at it at least, but I don't want to destroy it.So I didn't risk it before I finished the video playing with it.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 05, 2023, 06:28:17 am
content: Screw holes look hard pottedProbe end I can't see any way in short of ripping off all the rubber surround.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2023, 06:47:17 pm
content: Are we going to get a teardown? The probe is quite interesting.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 06, 2023, 02:07:32 am
content: Quote from: tszaboo on August 05, 2023, 06:47:17 pmDoesn't look like it. As it seems I likely have to damage the case to get it apart.

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2023, 07:10:06 am
content: Quote from: dobsonr741 on August 03, 2023, 06:32:51 pmFor 100 MHz range, I'd look for some pigtailed laser diodes and pig tailed PIN diodes and work from there. As for power, just use a battery.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2023, 08:36:42 pm
content: How does it power the probe part? Laser? How many watts? How do they convert the light to power at the other end?

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2023, 09:40:48 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on August 06, 2023, 08:36:42 pmSolar roadway?

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 07, 2023, 12:52:21 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on August 06, 2023, 08:36:42 pmA photo diode can do that.

author: BrianHG
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2023, 01:35:47 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on August 07, 2023, 12:52:21 amEspecially one fed by a laser, if the photodiode is tuned to the optical wavelength, you can feed through a significant amount of power.

author: switchabl
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2023, 03:10:33 pm
content: Quote from: Weston on August 04, 2023, 10:34:24 pmShariar did a teardown of the Saker probe:

author: bsdphk
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2023, 03:21:45 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on August 07, 2023, 12:52:21 amBell Labs prototyped an optically connected telephone in 1979:https://archive.org/details/bstj58-7-1735/mode/2up

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2023, 09:11:43 pm
content: Quote from: dobsonr741 on August 03, 2023, 06:32:51 pmI vaguely remember seeing a Linear technology application note. It was about making linear characteristics for an optocouple. So they had an equal optocouple in the feedback, and it was used on the transmit side to correct for any nonlinear characteristics. I don't know how linear optical cables and fiber optic transmitters are, but that's one way of doing it. Or maybe they are doing it completely differently, since 10Gb and even 100Gb optical networks existed or a while, they might just send it all digital.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2023, 08:22:29 am
content: Quote from: tszaboo on August 07, 2023, 09:11:43 pmI've worked on such a device a decade ago. The entire acquisition system (battery powered) is connected using an optical (ethernet) network link and the data is send pre-formatted over the network. But this is for use in high voltage labs where they use it to measure into the MVolt / tens of kAmpere range and float the units to tens of kVolt.The biggest trick is to get this techology to become cheap. You can probably get a long way using a battery and SFP + FPGA + ADC / DAC

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2023, 12:24:36 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on August 08, 2023, 08:22:29 amI was thinking that, too. If it's low-power enough to be powered by light then surely a PP9 battery would go a long way.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2023, 05:34:04 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on August 08, 2023, 08:22:29 amFor a "low" frequency system in the digital domain, there are Delta-Sigma modulators that output bitstream, that practically can directly be sent to a SPF and on the RX side it can be turned into an analog signal with an 1 bit DAC. How well this would work in practice, I don't know, probably DC accuracy needs calibration, and Delta-Sigma typically stops being practical at 10MHz. Maybe it's possible to push this a bit with very high speed opamps and comparators. In theory an optical probe with this would be super cheap, but also not very userful due to the limited frequecy.For high speed, maybe it's possible to skip the FPGA, if one has a good match of interfaces. There needs to be an ADC, probably Flash ADC, generating data at that very high 100MSPS-1GSPS speed paired up with a SERDES. With the RX side, having a similar SERDES and a DAC. I think the difficulty could be finding such a SERDES, as most of them seem to be only targeting video interfaces.I think if someone could put together a 50-100MHz probe without going crazy in the BOM and development costs, there is a market to grab.

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2023, 07:33:44 pm
content: I don't see how going entirely digital would ever allow a cheap hobbyist grade product at 100 MHz. Two path is an option and would make calibration easy, digital/PWM for LF (across a separate fiber) and direct amplitude modulation of laser current for HF.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2023, 10:23:58 pm
content: Quote from: Marco on August 08, 2023, 07:33:44 pmI know what you mean, but I always get surprised on some part costs. Like the digital radio and TV receivers brought down the hobby SDR and VNA costs from thousands to dozens.I had a brief look, and TI is selling laser drivers for 2 dollars, that do 10 gigabit. Maybe some video ADC and DAC can be repurposed for it, or for an oscilloscope even an 8 bit R-2R DAC could provide enough resolution. Since the most scopes we have don't have more than 8 bit anyway.Something came to me. I think we can tell a lot about it just by looking at the delay of the probe. Micsig datasheet is claiming 15ns delay, which, for a 1GHz probe is a lot, but for actual propagation delay in a POF cable is nothing. I think it's safe to say they do it digital.

author: Weston
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2023, 10:29:42 pm
content: I really wonder what the optics package in the Micsig probe consists of. Just the setup for transferring power over fiber is pretty costly. I bet they are using that to transmit data to the probe head though (if needed).Dave:Could you please take some linearity / FFT measurements with the probe? As a function of input amplitude? It would be interesting to see. Any setup modulating a laser diode directly (possibly this probe, likely the saker one) will be more non-linear than something using a electro-optical modulator (like the Tek probe). So any harmonics should be indicative of how it works.Close up waveforms at ms+ time constants of the settling behavior (like the last few fractions of a percent of vertical settling) for a large voltage step would also be interesting. I am a bit curious if there are any thermal-scale time constants due to heating of the optical TX or RX.

author: BreakingOhmsLaw
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2023, 06:50:24 pm
content: Hey Dave, if you're measuring GaN or SiC, you should look into Double Pulse Testing.https://www.infineon.com/dgdl/Infineon-Double_pulse_testing-Bodos_power_systems-Article-v01_00-EN.pdf?fileId=5546d46271bf4f920171ee81ad6c4a1f