AD16 --- Still buggy, crashy and runs like a dog. - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: mrpackethead
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2015, 09:07:36 pm
content: AD16 installed 8:00AM today, first crash 10:20AM.Can Altium make it so that...1. Doesn't crash (Information box, etc, catastrophic failure, etc...)2. Can access more than 3Gb memory... Yes, recode for 64 bit. This isn't the '80s anymore stop being so retro 32 bit and all. Multiple core use, etc. <--- a real major release?3. Auto-router that was on par with other tools. Should be able to route diff pairs, and obey length matching rules. Without doing funky stuff (like routing random directions, kinked traces, violating drc, etc).Re:> We could spend a long time chasing things, but fundemetnally, the single> threaded, 32 bit nature of altium means its just going to choke. I’m not that> keen to spend more time and diversions on somethign that is just poorly> archtiectured code…>> Has this been addressed in version 16…For AD16 the application is still 32-bit. There are no current plans for AD for this to change that I am aware. But I would caveat that statement with the fact that this type of information is sensitive and typically contained within the Development Team and not even distributed internally, so I cannot provide any indication either way as far as future plans go.As far as performance of current version you are always welcome to register online for a free trial to check at anytime whether the stability/performance has been ehanced relative to your requirements. Also simply let me know if you need an evaluation license and I can get that arranged for you.I would point out with respect to performance/stability that this is currently a big interest on the part of the Development Team. If you have any designs that you are able to share that exhibit instability issues they can be passed to the Development Team to investigate in more detail.Some of the development effor that has been introduced with respect to stability/performance does include the above mentioned Windows Resource Monitor and some of the following.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2015, 09:46:14 pm
content: 64 bit is Embarcadero's (compiler) problem... They were extremely late with the 64 bit version of their compiler and the compiler is very buggy itself ...

author: kripton2035
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2015, 09:46:43 pm
content: never install a x.0 version of a software, on any platform...I wait for X.2 or X.3 and you can still have blocking bugs...

author: mrpackethead
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2015, 10:15:41 pm
content: Quote from: free_electron on November 12, 2015, 09:46:14 pmBut the buggy crashy thing that Altium is pushing is Altiums problem. They want my $$$$ for subscription and push out this level of product.. Simply not good enough.

author: Wilksey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2015, 11:37:48 pm
content: I use v15 at work and it is fine, doesn't crash that often on a 64 bit machine?It's an i5, NV Quadra card, and 8GB mem, Win7 x64 pro

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2015, 12:04:09 am
content: Quote from: free_electron on November 12, 2015, 09:46:14 pmWhy the hell do they have heavy lifting code in Delphi? Keeping the UI and it's scripting in Delphi might make some sense, but for everything else they should have started migration a decade ago. To not see this coming is plain incompetence.

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2015, 12:17:58 am
content: Quote from: Marco on November 13, 2015, 12:04:09 amWelcome to Altium?I would've loved if they'd have just trashed all the ancient, unmaintainable code years ago. But alas...Tim

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 13, 2015, 01:18:45 am
content: Quote from: mrpackethead on November 12, 2015, 10:15:41 pmAnd that's the trick. People rightly expect a product to get more stable with each release/patch.Even more true when you chose the subscription model like Altium have done.Altium, unfortunately for them, because it's just not working out, have chosen the subscription model and also abandon the previous release in terms of bugs fixes when the new release comes out.So the customer finds themselves in the situation of choosing to stick with a previous version with no future bug fixes, or keep up to date and get a new set of bug at each release.And Altium still wonder to this day to this day why some people are still using 99SE.But hey, the share price is sky high and customers are locked into your product., so all is right with the world.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 13, 2015, 01:19:58 am
content: Quote from: Marco on November 13, 2015, 12:04:09 amIncompetence is Altium's speciality

author: Bassman59
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2015, 07:09:31 pm
content: Quote from: Wilksey on November 12, 2015, 11:37:48 pmI use AD15 on a Win-7 64-bit machine too (i7) and it leaks memory like a sieve.

author: Wilksey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2015, 10:19:49 pm
content: Odd, I wonder why it crashes more often on some than others?The machine is not often connected to a network.

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2015, 10:24:23 pm
content: The thing that is most variable from one machine to the next is the video card and the video drivers. My guess is that Altium's code is buggy, but only in ways that show up when interacting with also-buggy video drivers that they didn't test with...

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 14, 2015, 12:09:21 am
content: Quote from: mrpackethead on November 12, 2015, 09:07:36 pmno. because if they do, it will not make them "professional" software development. this is not a desease, this is a trait. not just altium particularly.

author: ajawamnet
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2015, 04:50:03 pm
content: Using 16 right now. Actually quite nice. So far no real issues. Installed along side 15.1.14. I know one of the beta testers - an old timer from the forum that I trust.Running Win 7 Pro with 8 cores...Tried it on my old XP machine - no go.Been a Protel/Altium user since 1994.... I do about 130 designs a year. This year closer to 150. I was using 6.9 for years until I upgraded last year. When 15 came out it had a lot of broken things - editing split planes causing crashes, the Specctra export was broken, the Sch and Sch lib list failed to recall settings between sessions.But I have to say - 16 is a lot better initial release than 15 was. I still use 6.9 on my XP box so I can use QualeCAD for build sheets.I also have Cadence PCB Pro (version 16.6-2015) and it's nice too. A bit more tweak tho... I will say it's 3D export is funky...I will say I use very little on line DRC's - just clearance. I do not use vaults, variants, dblib stuff, etc... nor 3D - I typically do top down from Solidworks - been an owner/user of that since 1995. I simple use 2D out of SW to a mech layer with reg marks for pad snapping.There's a blog on the Altium site that I posted this to:"All in all - I guess it's the carpenter - not the hammer.There's a vid that makes it around a lot of machining and CAM's sites - Places where oldtimers bitch about Asian made lathes and mills, other defend it. Why you should only use Starrett and not Little Machine Shop stuff.Yep - a twig, some cord, a nail, hold a 1" wood chisel between your toes. And look at what he makes - an amazing chess King.So again - it's carpenter - not the tools.Yea - it'd be frustrating if the twig kept breaking. But I think he's probably more worried that someone with bombs strapped to themselves may detonate in front of his store (heart goes out to Fr this AM) than complain about his twig.http://www.moroccoworldnews.com/2015/11/172539/morocco-in-high-alert-after-paris-terrorist-attacks/"

author: mrpackethead
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 16, 2015, 03:48:00 am
content: Quote from: AcHmed99 on November 15, 2015, 06:40:54 pmThe hammer which i bought, keeps breaking, and the people said they would fix it if i gave them money every year.. But they hav'nt.

author: Batang
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2015, 07:49:44 am
content: So far after a week of use I have had no issue.It would appear to leak memory but no better or worse than some other apps I use, anyway I have 20 gig RAM installed so not an issue.Running on Windows 7 Ultimate 64 bit.Cheers.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2015, 12:46:44 pm
content: Quote from: ajawamnet on November 15, 2015, 04:50:03 pmuse kicad mr carpenter... a mr "american hero" dont use multi thousands priced tool they carved their tool on their own from an iron ore.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2015, 01:31:47 pm
content: I have 8 PCBdoc open with 1000+ component in 3D, detailed 3D model for each and 70 schdoc open, and it uses less than 1 GBof RAM (AD15). Not sure when it would use more than 3 GB. Sure it could use more CPU cores and some extra buffering though.

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2015, 07:02:28 pm
content: The last time I had a really big simulation (record all node voltages/currents, ms long transient simulation of switching circuit), I saw a bit over 3GB before it gasped for breath and choked. Which was back in the Summer '09 version. As long as it's 32 bit, I wouldn't imagine this has changed.Tim

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2015, 09:01:13 pm
content: Been running it for a week now. No crashes yet. Win7 enterprise. HP Zbook with a Quadro graphics card.I think your computer is just unstable...

author: DutchGert
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2015, 09:26:20 pm
content: Same here, not a single crash after almost a week in comparison to a few crashes a day in 15

author: mrpackethead
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2015, 07:16:39 am
content: Quote from: DutchGert on November 18, 2015, 09:26:20 pmOk, really? Maybe i shoudl give it a spin... if they have fixed some of the stablity issues, then i might give them another chance.Unlikely to be my PC..

author: Bassman59
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2015, 10:32:09 pm
content: Quote from: Bassman59 on November 13, 2015, 07:09:31 pmAnd running AD16 on that same machine, I see a much-reduced memory footprint. With a schematic design open and a bunch of PDFs open as well, I see 37% memory usage. The same design in AD15 showed 75% usage, and when I quit AD15 the memory would go down to 50%.Maybe AD16 is not loading certain plug-ins, so that relieves memory pressure. Or maybe it's better? I don't know.

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 20, 2015, 05:28:15 am
content: I don't think any of altium is written in Delphi any more.They were busy porting it to C many years back.I think the problems in the latest few versions are due to getting the bugs out of the rewrite

author: mrpackethead
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 20, 2015, 06:32:58 am
content: Quote from: Bassman59 on November 19, 2015, 10:32:09 pmThis is encouraging news.

author: krish2487
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 20, 2015, 06:46:11 am
content: An off-topic question,has anyone used Altium on a windows server installation??Has anyone compared the performance of AD on a desktop OS vs server OS scenarios??We have a bunch of win server 2008 and 2012 enterprise and datacenter licenses and wanted to give AD a try.(We are presently a complete linux shop and use eagle. We do use Win 2K8 server for out ERP package and it hasn't given a problem in 3 years and counting, not even a reboot. Now win desktop - that is a completely different issue)

author: ajb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 23, 2015, 05:22:07 pm
content: Haven't had a chance to do very much at all in 16 yet, but I did just run an outjob that took for freaking ever to complete. It wasn't anything huge, only ~170 parts on a 2-layer PCB, and a typical CM package of gerbers, PnP, and two BOM reports, but it probably took half an hour from start to finish. Anyone else found outjobs to be particularly slow in 16?

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 23, 2015, 08:08:18 pm
content: I've seen slow OutJobs in 14 and 15 before.Slow networked drives are a big hit.Online BOM queries (supplier links) tend to be slow.I've seen STEP export chew for a long time, probably due to something weird in one of the models (the final file was over 100MB and, from a glance at the plaintext, looked to contain thousands of repeating or redundant structures).I've also had AutoCAD export crash its module.Tim

author: mrpackethead
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2015, 01:45:05 am
content: The altium sales guys rang me today.. I asked them if they had read the comments in their blog.https://blog.live.altium.com/#Blogs/new-features-you'll-only-see-in-altium-designer-16

author: snoopy
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 25, 2015, 10:46:54 pm
content: Still they reckon they have fixed over 200 bugs !! Hopefully it's the top 200 of the nastiest bugsQuote

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 04, 2015, 06:54:48 am
content: Can anyone replicate this bug - in Via properties screen the "Drill Pair" field is transparent showing the board behind it. Seems only happening in Via properties dialog screen.EDIT: Windows Pro 7 64-bit, Intel i7 CPU, 32Gb RAM, Nvidia GTX570/2Gb

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 04, 2015, 05:22:33 pm
content: After speaking w Altium support it was identified that switching the desktop theme from traditional to Win7 wit Aero fixed that. Not happy with that though, i want no freaking Win7 theme. Still considering this a bug. No single application should cause global change, running this computer for 3 years with traditional windows theme, never had problems.

author: w3amd
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2015, 02:54:40 am
content: I can confirm that the software is quite buggy as well. Many times when you get an error it isn't 'caught' properly and leads to a terminal error window. This especially happens during importing. We haven't exactly figured out what some of the triggers are but what happens is memory access violations for which you can only press the OK button and then the software closes. OS Windows 7, Windows Server. We have special client setups for high speed 3D graphics 16GB cards, 8 core processors and 64 GB ram.On the bright side we got this software (AD15) about 3 months ago and it's generally fantastic. To have SPICE built in and direct access to suppliers is quite nice.I'll check if this has Embarcadero tags in it. I'll let you know what I see.AD16 appears to be written in Microsoft Visual C because it's using a large amount of the MS Visual C libraries (you can see them in the directory). There is no sign that I can see this is written in Delphi or Builder.

author: w3amd
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2015, 03:23:01 am
content: Third party libs are almost always a high risk because you don't know how well the error controlling code was written.I don't see any Embarcadero signatures in DXP.exeEven compiling and linked without debug info you get hooks and DXP doesn't appear to have them.

author: w3amd
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2015, 03:27:23 am
content: This shows the same hooks in the release build of a sample exe.Because of the way Delphi and Builder work they have the form (window) hooks for the class information.Cheers

author: w3amd
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2015, 03:52:05 am
content: Your right, I stand corrected. They used a stripper to strip out the exports section but the file itself has many string references to Delphi coding.Then why aren't they catching the Exceptions in the main handler? My guess says they may have a third party component which is threading and errors are not coming from the main threads.It's also funny that the first function call is IsDebuggerPresent.I wonder why they have that in there :-)Cheers

author: w3amd
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2015, 05:00:33 am
content: Yeah INT3 unhandled exception catcher. Made famous by ASPack. Forget the original name. The import mangling was neat. Intel's secret opcode was neater, Ice ice baby.The root thing though is that none of them actually work besides an external hardware encryption key.

author: Gixy
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 08, 2016, 12:25:40 pm
content: Installed yesterday. Not all presets moved from AD15. In the Project menu, there is only one command to compile, and this does nothing : no ERC produced... I'll try to re-install because I saw some errors during the first launch.