EEVblog #1063 - Weller WE1010 vs Hakko FX888D Soldering Station - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 09, 2018, 08:37:32 pm
content: Review of two $100 class soldering stations.Can the new Weller WE1010 beat the venerable Hakko FX888D?https://kit.com/EEVblog/soldering-equipment

author: ulwur
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: March 09, 2018, 09:48:34 pm
content: I realize it's to late, but Dave should have included the Xytronic LF-1600 station in the comparisation. I have been using Wellers professionaly for 20 years, and I'm impressed by the Xytronic I boght last year.

author: ulwur
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: March 09, 2018, 09:51:26 pm
content: One more thing. I haven't used a Hakko ever, but I've noticed that the temp display seems to freeze on the set temp. I find it strange that the display wont even change 1 least sigificant digit until Dave really pushed the tip in the wet sponge.

author: Starlord
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 09, 2018, 10:03:59 pm
content: 17:50 - "These aren't like 3 or 5 second irons like your JBCs, Paces, and your Metcals and all your really high end $500K irons..."$500K soldering irons?! Surely you can't be serious!I tried to find some of these $500K irons you spoke of, and the highest price one I can find is this $28,000 Metcal rework station:https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Metcal/APR-2100-SCS?qs=sGAEpiMZZMsgi4BqhxuE1fcBywSq7o1561GpXd7QrLmT9Ix2SPkP%252bg%3d%3dBut that doesn't really qualify as what I'd call a soldering iron.Perhaps you meant $5K?This Pace seems like it might be the sort of thing you would have been referring to:https://www.tequipment.net/Pace/PRC-2000-8007-0132/Desoldering-Equipment/Rework-Stations/?v=0

author: lem_ix
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 09, 2018, 10:18:24 pm
content: He probably meant to say 500 to 1000$. This Weller will probably do well in markets Hakko doesn't have a presence in.

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 09, 2018, 10:23:21 pm
content: I find Weller tips beat Hakko for wetting and I get better results with Weller soldering irons. The Hakko tips, solder is always sticking and gobbing on the tip.The FX-888D, who puts the on-off switch on the side? Drives me nuts. Hakko sponge FAIL. The brass wool is harsh on tips and leaves a mess.Weller auto turn off is great, but they don't offer as good a selection of tips for SMT.Both are very good soldering stations.

author: qu1ck
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 09, 2018, 11:17:29 pm
content: Dave you should really take a look at stations that are based on t12 tips. These t18 and 900 series tips just don't cut it in terms of temperature tracking because of big thermal resistance between the tip itself and temperature sensor. They require very precise machining to manufacture (biggest reason why chinese tips suck is because they have big gaps) and therefore will never be really cheap. T12 on the other hand has the temperature sensor integrated in the tip.There is a big family of soldering stations that everyone and their mother is producing nowadays, based on stm32 micros. They have great UI, lots of features, including sleep/position sensor for the handle, various temperature profiles for various tips etc.Maybe you can get one of those stm32 stations, alongside with bakon 950d and original hakko and review them?

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 09, 2018, 11:23:54 pm
content: I read somewhere you should press a button to wake the Weller up from sleep, they did not say which button.What Dave called a dicky spring stand on Weller I call it a great feature. Because it is flexible i can throw the iron into it without taking my eyes off the board and it will go right into the holder. I do not have Hakko but have a JBC and with it i always have to look at the stand to put the iron in it since it is just a hole in the stand. With Weller spring stand i do not have to worry about the angle i grab the iron, the spring action compensates for it. With a solid stand i have to be careful not to snap the iron in half if i pull it in a wrong angle. Same about accidentally hitting the iron in the stand when doing something else, Weller just moves and springs back, Hakko iron may break.

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2018, 12:20:33 am
content: Quote from: qu1ck on March 09, 2018, 11:17:29 pmYeah I recommended in the other thread:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/manufacture/low-cost-iron-shootout/But I can see why he might be reluctant to recommend for newbies as they have questionable safety and QA, unless you know what you are doing.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2018, 03:32:54 am
content: My FX888 (the older analog version) came with a chisel tip. Maybe when they updated it to digital, they thought that conical tips would be more useful for small SMD work?

author: Nusa
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2018, 03:57:51 am
content: What, no teardown? I thought taking it apart was rule #1 at EEVblog?oops, guess I missed those 2 minutes near the end! Never mind.I would be particularly amused if the WE1010 has unused pads/inputs for setpoint selection that they deliberately didn't use to avoid competing with their better models.Even if it doesn't I can see this being a great hacking opportunity, since the display hardware is clearly present.

author: 1anX
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2018, 05:06:10 am
content: Thanks Dave, it reminded me that its time to upgrade from my Hakko 926. Its done great service over the years and been maintained with numerous new parts, but figured its time to get something new. The 926's paint has turned yellow and its got dings on its case, the solder pencil holder is starting to suffer from heat rot and is falling apart.It still holds it temp using the new series Hakko tips and will be retired to backup status. Cant really bear to part with it and binning it would just be wasteful. So I just ordered a new Hakko 888D and hope it works as reliably as my old 926. Your test shows Hakko still provides all I need from a basic solder station.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2018, 05:44:55 am
content: Neither is particularly impressive, but they're both basically ancient designs. I'd say the Weller has better sensing but perhaps less mass.Neither of them has any power delivery capability thanks to relying on mostly air as a thermal transfer medium - which is why you're always banging on about having to adjust temperature for different tasks. If you can deliver the power tomaintaintemperature you don't need to adjust it!I'm hoping the ADS200 which is supposed to be coming your way (at, I admit, over twice the price - $250 class station..) will show both of those for the relics they are. An FX951 might be a good station to compare to - maybe a PS-900 or EB-2000 would be fun to throw in as well. Gets expensive buying all those, though.

author: boffin
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 10, 2018, 07:12:24 am
content: I think these soldering iron shootouts are awesome, thanks for the video. I'm using a 40 yr old Weller (W-TCP-L) that's old enough to have a Bakelite case, and even with the fixed temp tips (I almost always use a 700F/370C) it works like a champ, and always has. Lot of tips handy, but like you, I like the chisel (extra tips are a good item to bring your digikey order up to the free shipping level)I'd like to see your review of the TS100, a lot of people say a lot of nice things about them, and I was considering it as a second iron. However, having bought a couple of Yihua 947-III for a course I teach at work, I have to admit I'm impressed for the price ($12-20), and might just get one of those instead(thread here for the 947-III)https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/yihua-947-iii-soldering-iron-thoughts/

author: nowlan
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2018, 07:53:25 am
content: Just watched the video. Surprised not using/needing the silicon pads to change tips like on the 951 hakkos. Beats using pliers yes?There is a knock off FX-951 on BangGood for $115au. Would Dave stoop to asking BG for eval units?The authentic 888 in 230v land are double the US, which has been hard to swallow for students/hobbyist.

author: bitwelder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2018, 12:25:52 pm
content: Seeing the review of the UI on the Hakko reminded me of the (negative) comments from Louis Rossmann about the Hakko 861DW hot air station.Are all Hakkos with digital interface so pathetically inefficient if not counterintuitive to operate?

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2018, 12:36:51 pm
content: Quote from: floobydust on March 09, 2018, 10:23:21 pmIf I reach out my right hand the switch falls naturally under my finger. I find it the perfect place for a switch.

author: Rolo
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2018, 01:46:18 pm
content: QuoteI Live in The Netherlands, we have 230V AC Mains. The original Hakko FX888D costs € 133 here (= $163 US, $208 AU). Looks like the Weller WE1010 is going to costs € 170 over here.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2018, 01:47:21 pm
content: It seems that the Weller and the Hakko are really close in terms of performance. So, for me, a purchasing decision would be based on their ergonomics. Again, this looks like a tie as far as the handpieces are concerned -- but for the base stations, the Weller wins hands-down in my opinion.What was Hakko thinking, trying to make do with only two buttons? The cost of an extra button would literally have been a cent or so! And seeing Dave holding the Hakko station in place with his other hand while he pushes those too-high-force buttons makes me cringe...The larger display is another win for the Weller, for my taste. And, speaking of taste -- ah no, I won't go there...

author: ciccio
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2018, 02:04:38 pm
content: I bought a Weller WTCP in 1980, for the sum of 86.250 Italian Liras including VAT. Revalued to to-day, it's about 211.00 Euros.The quality of the station was such that it is still working, after 47 years (I sold it some years ago to a friend).In my lab I have now two Weller WS81, that currently sell for about 300 Euros + VAT (366.00 Euros net).They solder as well as the WTCP and the extra power (80 vs 50 W) is sometimes necessary , but in the years I've seen that:1) The WTCP had only one problem, ( the contacts of the magnetic switch inside the handle had to be cleaned some times) and it's tips lasted for a life,2) The WS81 had a lot of problem with short life of tips, oxidation of the tip retaining tube, oxidation of the surface of the heater touching the tip (the spare heater costs about 70 Euros), unreliable temp setting.Weller quality has declined but it's prices did not.My local distributor does not have the new low cost Weller, but it's bigger brother, the WT1010 , sell for 380 Euros + VAT- Too expensive... (but it has the presets).Now I 've built a T12 clone kit, that works like a charm: the handpiece is not as confortable as the Weller, but the thermal response is very good, and the cost was about 30 Euros.No more new Wellers in my lab.Best regards

author: mdijkens
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2018, 02:10:55 pm
content: I have the analog FX-888 and when seeing this video I am really happy I have the analog one.Just turning a simple knob to change temperature; I love it!Why didn't any of them go with a nice digital display, 2 or 3 preset buttons and a turning knob for temperature controlThis is not progress

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2018, 02:32:50 pm
content: Quote from: mdijkens on March 10, 2018, 02:10:55 pmBetter solutions do exist, of course. My ERSA i-con has a nice, large encoder knob with integrated push-button, which works quite intuitively for temperature adjustment and menu control.But apparently this type of interface is reserved for higher-end soldering stations for now. Come on, guys, we all know how much (i.e. little) a simple encoder costs!

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2018, 03:03:05 pm
content: All I'm seeing here is ancient designs with terrible performance and inflated price. Weller seems to be stuck in the 80s, where switching power supply didn't exist. And arbitrary pricing.I was quite suprized, when I first tried a Metcal station. I was looking for the temperature setting first. Didn't find it. Looked it up online, and realized, that it is one of those fixed temperature stations. And then I used it, and I realized, I never needed to change the temperature. That one setting just worked. Heats up in 5 seconds, you an change a tip in about 10 seconds, and it just does everything. First I didn't even realize what is happening, I was waiting, OK, something must be wrong with it.It took my brain some time to realize how bad these irons are. And I ame from the WP-80 iron not this heap of crap. Or the "good quality" WRMP, which needed a new tip every time you took it out from the cabinet. It was there, because it was eating tips like no tomorrow. And the WP80's handpiece needed serious maintenance every now and then.Seriously, forget about watt ratings and temperature settings.

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2018, 03:31:56 pm
content: Absolute nonsense, ability to change temperature is a must for effective work. And not in a ducky way like that Hakko, has to be either one button preset press or a dial.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2018, 03:37:29 pm
content: Quote from: NANDBlog on March 10, 2018, 03:03:05 pmHmm... Metcal may be good (I have not had the opportunity to try one yet), but I can't see that their pricing policy is much different from the competition. If anything, they seem to be more expensive for comparable specs?QuoteIf a soldering station had perfect regulation of the (fixed) temperature, maybe you wouldn't need to change temperature that often. You will still have to change it sometimes, for different jobs; but I understand that the Metcals offer "self-regulating" tips as Weller did in the old days.But why would watt rating not matter?! Seems that the capabiity to supply enough power is one prerequisite for stable temperature regulation, besides a good closed-loop control?

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2018, 03:42:51 pm
content: Quote from: Rolo on March 10, 2018, 01:46:18 pmWeller is known to be overpriced. A German shop lists the WE1010 for € 169.95.

author: jancumps
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 10, 2018, 03:50:52 pm
content: Quote from: Nusa on March 10, 2018, 03:57:51 amWatch the video again. The front panel pcb is shown.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2018, 03:54:21 pm
content: Quote from: Bud on March 10, 2018, 03:31:56 pmOne simple question: Why?Maybe, because the iron is not up to the task, eg.: keeping it's temperature above the melting point?Quote from: ebastler on March 10, 2018, 03:37:29 pmI'm not happy with it's pricing, the entry point seems to be 200 EUR, which is 50 EUR more than the Weller. That is the PS900, I've used the MX5000. As I understand they use the same cartridges.Watt rating doesn't matter, you saw it in the video. The weller had higher rating yet slower heatup, and it dipped more when cooled down by water.Yes, a metcal doesnt have any setting, as it works with the Curie point of the tip. And the heating element and the tip is integrated, so your handle basically never wears out, as it is just a fancy connector. I was also skeptical at first.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2018, 04:02:11 pm
content: Quote from: NANDBlog on March 10, 2018, 03:54:21 pmWhat kind of conclusion is that?! "The quality of temperature control is not determined by the Watt rating alone" would be a viable statement. "Watt rating doesn't matter" is not.This is an engineering forum. Drawing the right conclusions from observations or measurements, and then relaying those conclusions correctly, helps your credibility.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2018, 04:08:58 pm
content: Quote from: ebastler on March 10, 2018, 04:02:11 pmIt is Saturday. I had enough precise engineering for this week, entschuldigung.Here is a 40W metcal soldering a nut to a bolt for remorse. Not my video.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2018, 04:20:19 pm
content: Quote from: NANDBlog on March 10, 2018, 04:08:58 pmEntschuldigung accepted.The screw-to-nut soldering video is nice. But hey, for those extreme situations with a large-capacity heat sink, I would argue that the performance actually becomes critically dependent on the Watt rating! Unless the manufacturerer got their closed-loop temperature control totally wrong, the iron will notice the need to supply heat, and more heat. Optimization of the control loop parameters shouldn't matter that much. Hence the time it takes to get back to soldering temperature will depend nearly entirely on the available electrical power (and on the thermal resistance between the heater and the tip).

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2018, 04:23:45 pm
content: Quote from: NANDBlog on March 10, 2018, 03:54:21 pmNope. The MX5000 (and MX500, and the old PS2E, etc etc) are 13.56MHz units. The PS and MFR units are 400kHz. They use different handpieces and tips, and the cheapest tip option uses a separate heater coil.Quote from: ebastler on March 10, 2018, 04:20:19 pm.. and that's the key. A Metcal with a 40W supply will deliver.. well, not 40W, as not all tips even take full power, but it will deliver it straight into the body of the tip (as will any more conventional, but still integrated heater, system). Meanwhile, these things are delivering it into a nice jacket of air between heater and tip, and then into a massive amount of exposed metal surface area around that to act as a heatsink.

author: gearshredder
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2018, 05:11:08 pm
content: +1 for Metcal. Just bought another mx-500. I'm waiting for a mx-5000 to show up for a good price.There needs to be a heater integrated tip station review.

author: boffin
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 10, 2018, 05:41:05 pm
content: Quote from: ebastler on March 10, 2018, 04:20:19 pmAnd doing that kind of joint is exactly why you own one of those 140W soldering guns. Not delicate, but for that sort of thing its invaluable.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2018, 05:42:38 pm
content: Quote from: boffin on March 10, 2018, 05:41:05 pmYes, one of those might be able to keep up with a modern 40-60W system.

author: djacobow
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2018, 05:43:48 pm
content: So, the WE1010 does not seem like a meaningful upgrade over my WESD51. So, if I'm ready for a better iron and I'm willing to go up to, say $500, what's the best iron I can get at that price?

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2018, 05:54:23 pm
content: Quote from: gearshredder on March 10, 2018, 05:11:08 pmI would like to see how the TS100 compares. I saw a few reviews that say it compares quite well to the cheaper soldering stations but it would be interesting to see if it would be a good budget alternative to Metcal.Quote from: boffin on March 10, 2018, 05:41:05 pmI got a 260W Weller for assembling battery packs. Main downside is that it's heavy. I wonder when they'll come out with one that uses a high frequency inverter to cut down on weight and while they're at it, make it battery powered.

author: gearshredder
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2018, 05:57:06 pm
content: ^I was thinking about buying a TS100. If dave doesn't do it I'll make the video! lol. I kinda want that MX-5000 first though. 80w of RF power!

author: Terry01
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2018, 06:37:35 pm
content: I got the FX-888 a few weeks ago and think it's a great wee iron! I would recommend it to anyone. In saying that I had the Katsu 852D before that which is a Hakko clone, I would recommend that too!Honestly!For anyone using the T12 Hakko clone iron get a genuine Hakko tip in your favourite flavour and see how much it improves the clone. I did and it's awesome! Well worth the extra £££I get the problem with the 2 button control thing on the FX-888, I was a bit confused at 1st myself. After about 10 seconds I got it and have been happy operating it ever since.Unless you have to change temp every 30 seconds the fact it takes about 5 seconds to change temp it's not a problem. Lets face it if you were having to change temp every 30 seconds with even a mind controlled temp setting it would get annoying?? It's not bad at all.I haven't used a Weller so can't compare 1 way or the other. I just know the Hakko is a decent iron for hobby use.

author: Deridex
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2018, 08:04:48 pm
content: Sadly i'm not realy impressed by both solderingstations. I will stay with my Ersa I-Con-Pico

author: 4CX35000
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2018, 08:33:04 pm
content: Quote from: Terry01 on March 10, 2018, 06:37:35 pmWith the Katsu clone and the Hakko it is possible to put a small piece of copper around the iron element and slip on the fake tip's. It improves the performance of the fake tips, but the station will need recalibrating.At work I have two irons; a Hakko FX-888D which is my daily work horse with loads of spare bits (Most of them fake), which I use for tinning leads, connectors and so on. For the more delicate component, SMD and other PCB work I have a JBC CD-2BE which I have a small selection of different bits.For my home use I have a Katsu and that is adequate for home use and if I need to do something fairly tasking, I can take any circuit board into work and use the Hakko or JBC.If I didn't have access to the equipment I have at work, then I would opt for the Hakko FX-888D. It really comes down to budget and requirements, if your a student then the Katsu will be fine, but for hobbyist and pensioner then the Hakko is a good buy.

author: timelessbeing
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2018, 09:47:37 pm
content: Quote from: mdijkens on March 10, 2018, 02:10:55 pmMe too. That button interface looks maddening. And the analog one was cheaper too.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2018, 09:49:33 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on March 10, 2018, 04:23:45 pmThanks for the clarification.Is there a big difference in their performance?

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2018, 10:07:48 pm
content: Quote from: NANDBlog on March 10, 2018, 09:49:33 pmNo experience with the baby ones.

author: eV1Te
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2018, 10:59:46 pm
content: I just wanted to mention a small inaccuracy in the video regarding thermocouples. You said that the thermocouple (Type K) couldn't go any higher than 250 deg.C.This is incorrect, all Type K thermocouples are accurate up to 1350 deg.C and down to -200 deg.C (per definition/standard they are all made from the same alloy), and all good thermocouple meters should also be accurate in that range.However the plastic insulation on the wires are probably only rated for 250-300 deg.C. But this does not matter in your case since you are only heating the tip in your experiment, and even if you would char the insulation close to the tip, it would not affect the measurement.Type K alloy:Positive: Chromel (90% nickel, 10 % chromium), non-magnetic, melting-point 1420 deg.CNegative: Alumel (95% nickel, 2% aluminum, 2% manganese, and 1% silicon), magnetic, melting-point 1399 deg.C

author: eV1Te
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2018, 11:28:16 pm
content: By they way, the Weller had a 60 Hz transformer and I assume that you were driving it at 110 V 50 Hz through an isolation transformer?Could the incorrect frequency affect the transformers efficiency or possibly saturate the core when driven at its maximum load in such a way that the iron did not get it's full 70 W?Remember that it is not recommended to run 60 Hz transformers at 50 Hz due to the 20 % higher flux in the core. For a transformer with small tolerances the 20 % higher flux would saturate the core and cause significant losses, the same as if you would increase the mains voltage by 20 %.It would be interesting if you could measure the power-draw of each iron to see how much power they really use (65 W vs 70 W) and their respective response-time after putting the tip on the sponge!

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2018, 11:45:58 pm
content: Quote from: eV1Te on March 10, 2018, 11:28:16 pmHe has a VFD designed just for emulating foreign mains so I assume that's what he used.

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2018, 12:09:27 am
content: Quote from: eV1Te on March 10, 2018, 11:28:16 pmGood idea! I vote for this test.

author: Terry01
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2018, 12:22:13 am
content: Quote from: 4CX35000 on March 10, 2018, 08:33:04 pmI agree but the only thing on the clone iron is the black plastic ring/nut that holds the iron together on the clone tends to slacken off by itself if you put too much heat into it or use it for long periods. The genuine iron doesn't and the ring/nut is bacolite or something like that. The grey rubber grip on the clone is easy to move too so I slide it onto the plastic nut a little which helps keeping it secure too. The extra heat that that genuine tip gives you makes the slipping ring/nut thing worse on the clone. I agree 100% that the clone is more than ample for most hobby stuff. I have seen on YouTube the copper slip trick but not used it myself. You can see the extra body in the genuine tips and i'm sure it is some sort of slip too, maybe copper like you say to use in the clone. I would love a shot of one of these irons people say are so much better than the FX-888. I find it wanting for nothing. I can hope

author: Red Squirrel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2018, 02:42:04 am
content: I have that same Hakko which is my first "real" soldering iron. (was using a 40w fire stick before that) and the UI has always been my main complaint too. I accidentally went into calibration mode once, did not realize, I was trying to set the temp but instead I (miss)calibrated it. Doh! To calibrate it I just found out the melting temp of solder and slowly brought it up until it started to melt. I don't remember the steps I had to google it as I went along. Definitly not an intuitive UI.

author: Towger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2018, 07:10:28 am
content: Quote from: Bud on March 10, 2018, 03:31:56 pmNo it is not. The melting point of solder depends on the alloy used. You select your tip temperature based on it. Your tip always maintains it temperature. This allows you to safely solder small smd parts to tabs on RF power transistors while they are still bolted on to large heatsinks. There is no need for knobs and buttons to change. Have a look for currie point soldering irons, they are outside the price range if this review, but are not in the 500K range :-)

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 11, 2018, 07:28:35 am
content: Quote from: eV1Te on March 10, 2018, 10:59:46 pmFluke think that you are very wrong indeed:http://www.fluke.com/fluke/auen/accessories/temperature/80bk-a.htm?pid=55348260C max

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 11, 2018, 07:31:41 am
content: Quote from: nowlan on March 10, 2018, 07:53:25 amI get an email every week without fail from the endless people at Banggood offer stuff for review. I'll refuse because of their constant spamming.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 11, 2018, 07:32:52 am
content: Quote from: Starlord on March 09, 2018, 10:03:59 pmPerhaps I just misspoke?

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 11, 2018, 07:37:25 am
content: Quote from: NANDBlog on March 10, 2018, 03:03:05 pmShow me a $100 direct tip heater station and I'll review it and compare.Until then there are $100 class "ancient design" irons, and the more expensive direct tip heater ones, take your pick.You can do anawful lotwith a quality $100 soldering station.

author: Towger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2018, 07:40:17 am
content: Dave you also said the original/old Wellers were curie point irons!!!

author: Towger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2018, 07:43:26 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on March 11, 2018, 07:37:25 amThe TS100 is now less than $50.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2018, 09:21:55 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on March 11, 2018, 07:37:25 amYes, a lot of things can be done with these stations. I could do a lot with the 3000 Dollar weller station at work. But after using a direct heating tip, I realized how bad the actual performance was. And the value for the money. It is clear, that the reputable brands are not interested in a price fight, they can keep it high due to the businesses ordering their equipment without even thinking. This station is basically the same as the 20 dollar Hakko clones on Aliexpress, with better built quality. It has no extra features, and the heating element comes from the past.I took your challenge, and I found a direct tip heating station below 100 dollars. Aoyue 2930. I dont know how well it works.There seems to be a lot of stations using Hakko T12 tips also. I'm looking at one now, it has universal AC input, IEC input, with fuse and switch, OLED screen, knob, and metal housing, for some 50 dollar. I think (probably with a genuine cartridge) that these stations would be much better value then the WE1010. In fact I would like to hear your opinion on them.

author: TheAmmoniacal
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 11, 2018, 09:34:31 am
content: I had the Aoyue Int3210 for a year, because I need a knob (got a bad habit of adjusting the temperature often. I adjust the temperature instead of heating the parts longer). Nothing special, but does the job.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 11, 2018, 10:12:13 am
content: Quote from: Towger on March 11, 2018, 07:43:26 amA soldering iron "stick" from a no-name company that has (from many accounts) crap firmware, and is powered from a DC laptop power supply and cable or some other random power source is hardly my idea of a quality soldering station that's worthy of being compared to proper mains soldering stations.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 11, 2018, 10:15:01 am
content: Quote from: NANDBlog on March 11, 2018, 09:21:55 amOk, noted.QuoteI can't give an opinion on something you don't link to.

author: TheAmmoniacal
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 11, 2018, 10:15:14 am
content: For those that want a review of the TS100, mike has one:I also have one, it works. Not very ergonomic if you have normal-sized hands.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2018, 10:37:56 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on March 11, 2018, 10:15:01 amhttps://www.aliexpress.com/item/KSGER-T12-Soldering-Iron-station-STM32-OLED-DIY-Kits-Solder-Electric-Tools-Welding-Iron-Tips-Temperature/32836043839.html?spm=2114.search0104.3.41.71d36040u7OL1G&ws_ab_test=searchweb0_0,searchweb201602_5_10152_10151_10065_10344_10068_10342_10343_10340_10341_10084_10083_10618_10304_10307_10302_5711211_10313_10059_10534_100031_10103_10627_10626_10624_10623_10622_5711315_10621_10620_5722413-normal#cfs,searchweb201603_25,ppcSwitch_5&algo_expid=04c0ccb3-5b5d-4198-8cee-1498c1bcc85e-5&algo_pvid=04c0ccb3-5b5d-4198-8cee-1498c1bcc85e&priceBeautifyAB=0That is a long link...Anyway, there seems to be dozens of stations similar to this, with different handles, front panel, power supply. Some of them is DIY kit. I linked this one, because of the 390 review, 370 of it is positive 5 star. It might be worth to do a video on these. Some of them might be actually dangerous, and miss the earthing of the case, or the tip is not earthed, unless you hack it, etc.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2018, 10:47:57 am
content: Quote from: NANDBlog on March 11, 2018, 09:21:55 amThis may not be available for much longer: "This product leaves the range, as we want to make room for new products. We are happy to advise you if you need an alternative for this station. The spare parts will be available in future."http://www.aoyue.eu/aoyue-int2930-digital-lead-free-soldering-station-iron-smd.html

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 11, 2018, 11:06:06 am
content: Quote from: TheAmmoniacal on March 11, 2018, 10:15:14 amMike's title says it all. I don't consider the TS100 a proper bench soldering solution, so don't see a point comparing it against those.

author: Deridex
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2018, 11:18:39 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on March 11, 2018, 07:37:25 amI admit, that i don't know any half decent direct tip-heating-station in that pricerange.But i'm pretty sure that my little ersa station heats better than both stations you tested.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 11, 2018, 11:23:12 am
content: Quote from: Towger on March 11, 2018, 07:40:17 amThey were.The tip lost it's magnetism at a set temperature opening the switch to the heating element.They still sell them as Magnastat irons:https://weller.de/en/Weller--Products.html?cat_id=ID521And as the WTCPT fixed temp station.http://www.weller-toolsus.com/MagentoShare/media/mannuals/WTCPT_OI_PL.pdf

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 11, 2018, 11:25:38 am
content: Quote from: Deridex on March 11, 2018, 11:18:39 amWhich one?The Ersa WSD80 is the same price, and the i-Con is about 50% higher.They could very well be better, but that won't matter to the direct-heating fanboys

author: TheAmmoniacal
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 11, 2018, 11:27:40 am
content: Aoyue has a soldering iron with induction heating currently on sale:http://www.aoyue.eu/aoyue-int3233-digital-lead-free-induction-soldering-station.htmlAnyone tried those?

author: Deridex
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2018, 11:28:15 am
content: Check out the Ersa I-Con-Pico (non ESD) or the Ersa I-Con-Nano DaveEdit: I just noted that the Ersa I-Con-Pico got more expensive since i bought it. I payed 116€ (checked it) and now the cheapest i can find in germany is about 144€. Even though it is still cheaper than the cheapest Weller WE1010 i could find in germany.

author: Towger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2018, 09:18:48 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on March 11, 2018, 10:12:13 amIt more than met your price point. I would recommend a second hand Metcal MX500 for people who want a good iron. I got one on eBay with 2 handpieces and stands for 100stg a few years back. Picked up another base (looked never used) for 60 last year. These are in a different league and bargains are there if you keep an eye out.

author: gearshredder
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2018, 09:44:13 pm
content: Dave, a metcal can be had for 25$ each as I bought them in lots, kept a a couple at home and at work, the rest I sold off. Singles will go for $50. The wands go for $89 as a thermaltronics remake, plus tips are $18 each, original metcal tips were 80hr rated?? of course the sleep stand that will set you back $70 will increase the life a bit. So, total is about $150 or so. Not $100 but a good next step up.Metcal ps2e-01 40whttps://www.ebay.com/itm/Qty-2-Metcal-PS2E-01-Soldering-Station-Power-Supplies/382401687783?epid=1601722732&hash=item5908eab0e7:g:M5kAAOSwcJNanzi0wand:https://www.amazon.com/Thermaltronics-Solder-TMT-9000S-interchangeable-MX-RM3E/dp/B00NS4F4AG/ref=sr_1_1?s=hi&ie=UTF8&qid=1520804279&sr=1-1&keywords=thermaltronics+shptip:https://www.amazon.com/Thermaltronics-M7CP200-Chisel-interchangeable-STTC-136P/dp/B00NS4Q79S/ref=sr_1_1?s=hi&ie=UTF8&qid=1520804703&sr=1-1&keywords=m7cp200

author: eV1Te
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2018, 10:18:19 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on March 11, 2018, 07:28:35 amIt's not often that one finds a subject related to electronics that"Dave Jones himself"does not already know everything about already! (I mean it as a compliment)Just to illustrate my point: I fetched one Fluke thermocouple of the same type you had in the video (Fluke printed on the black connector), and one thermocouple that is rated to +1350 deg.C from the manufacturer (Omega USA brand). See images below:Test in water to confirm their accuracy - Both showed similar reading of 20.1 - 20.2 deg.CTest with torch up to ca 1150 deg.C - Both showed similar reading of ca 1150 deg.C (depending on how well I managed to position the torch).Verification in the same water again to confirm that their accuracy had not been changed, they both showed the same temperature as they did initially.Keep in mind that the type K alloy can not handle 1350 deg.C continuously for many hours/days depending on the atmosphere, since it might become oxidized or reduced. For continuous operation at these temperatures the two wires are often covered by a metal tube made out of Inconel or other type of superalloy (the Omega branded thermocouple in the images below is covered by such a tube, hence why you only see one rod and not two wires)I still believe that Fluke:lists the measurable range based on the temperature rating of the insulation (so that it does not melt or crack)or purposely list a lower range than it can handle so that they can charge more money for other probes. (does not feel like something a serious manufacturer like Fluke would do)There is one detail that is important to mention, there are also compensation and extension grade thermocouple wires. These consist of a different alloy with similar Seebeck coefficient close to ambient temperature, and have the purpose of being able to extend the length of the wires from a thermocouple.They are however not intended for forming the tip/junction where the actual sensing takes place, but can in theory form a very crude thermocouple that would be somewhat accurate close to ambient temperature.Source:Have a master degree in metallurgy and a Ph.D. in materials science. I work at a company that, among other things, produce thermocouple cables/wires.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2018, 10:23:44 pm
content: Quote from: gearshredder on March 11, 2018, 09:44:13 pmSecond hand comparisons aren't valid. Availability is limited and hugely variable by country.

author: cv007
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2018, 10:25:14 pm
content: I have an Aoyue 2900 which has long, easily removable tips (tip+heating element I guess). There is a rubber pad included, where you just grab the tip, pull it out, take another tip, push it in. No sleeve to unthread, etc. I don't remember where I got it (probably sparkfun back when they were starting), but I don't think it was very expensive (when in doubt, I get something lower end until I know better). It has worked pretty well, but the tips are harder to find now.Probably a feature that I think is greater than it really is, but is there any other station in this range that you can just yank the tip out and replace easily? I usually crank up the station, then when I pull the handle out I realize the tip is the wrong one (I only use maybe 2-3 different ones). Maybe unscrewing a sleeve is not so bad, but I figure messing with several hot parts for more than a few seconds will lead to burned fingers.

author: nowlan
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2018, 11:51:52 pm
content: The hakko 951 have a clip that slides the tip and colored handle out of the pencil. You then slide in the tip you want. Not tip so much, but a set of colored grippy handles, that live in their own case. Look at some reviews on YT.

author: gearshredder
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2018, 11:54:43 pm
content: anyone going to bid? 1 hr left I already have plenty.https://www.ebay.com/i/382401687783

author: SparkyFX
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 12, 2018, 12:42:56 am
content: A coworker once killed a soldering iron by repeatedly cooling it down on the sponge (guess he wanted it to be cool before storing it). The water got soaked up and the heating element either oxidized or broke because of that, hence I only do short wipes on the sponge. I assume the difference of performance between the sponge and the test on copper is that the water can transport a lot of energy a lot faster through the aggregate state change to gas.Usually i don´t think i would come across a case in which parts would break if soldered with e.g. a 50W iron, as the masses involved are usually low enough to not exceed limits. I don´t do plumbing with it. Higher power irons are of course useful for lowering the time to heat up when taking the iron out of the stand, which is nice in some commercial uses and in comparison tables. Otherwise while soldering you exchange the temperature critical part with the time critical part of that manual process and need to be careful anyway. So I thought pre heating is the way to go in corner cases like TO220 tabs to heatsinks, but thats where one could also easily blame lack of thermal considerations of the application if its not working without that? Of course i also got that bigger iron lying around, just in case and for tinkering around.I recently accompanied my old ELV LS 50 with a WER 853D and the same ZD 985 desoldering iron that was tested a while ago, because... more displays, a set of tips i did not yet have and hot air. An older Weller at work does the job as well as some propane soldering irons (no PCB work, though).

author: MT
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 12, 2018, 12:51:18 am
content: Soddering jobs? There should be a all shootout for battery based soldering irons.https://www.amazon.com/Weller-BL60MP-Soldering-Rechargeable-Lithium-Ion/dp/B00UM69TW2

author: cv007
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 12, 2018, 01:42:03 am
content: QuoteThanks. It looks like the sleeves may be a nicer system as you can get extras inexpensively, and don't even need to grab the hot tip at all. A few extra sleeves with the most used tips(cartridges?) would make the changes quick and safe.A nice review (pretty thorough, quite long, but not too boring)w w w.youtube.com/watch?v=YYZs_pewRd4A bit higher in price than what I would prefer, but for some reason that is always the case it seems. The 'user interface' is not great (including the 1970's led display from a wristwatch), but at least the tips should be available for a long time.Maybe I need just need the iron, and make my own power supply with my own 'user interface'. My idea of a user interface is a power switch, one 2-3" diameter knob that feels like a large rheostat when turned (to set temp), 2ea (each different color) 4 digit 14 segment led's, one to show set temp, the other to show actual temp and any other info via alphanumeric capability. Maybe a push button switch if necessary. All in a nice solid simple box.

author: rbm
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 12, 2018, 04:51:40 am
content: If the Weller WE1010 uses the same user interface design decisions as were taken in other Weller soldering stations, then at least one press of either the UP or DOWN keys on the console will wake up the iron from temperature setback. I have both the WRS1001 and WRS1002 stations and this is typical behaviour for them. There is no acceleration sensor in the handle to sense if the operator picks up the iron (to command the base to bring the tip back up to temperature) so shaking it or waving it in the air will accomplish nothing.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 12, 2018, 09:12:25 am
content: Quote from: floobydust on March 09, 2018, 10:23:21 pmLuckily you haveBOTHthings then...The wool stuff is great for removing large blobs of solder from the tip.

author: timelessbeing
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 12, 2018, 09:33:16 am
content: Quote from: floobydust on March 09, 2018, 10:23:21 pmPlease show us your proof how the soft brass is damaging the iron plating. I'm sure that the thermal cycling from wet sponges is MUCH gentler.Quote from: floobydust on March 09, 2018, 10:23:21 pmMy brass cleaner leaves all the mess neatly inside the Hakko stand, where I can easily empty it out into the trash. I poke my iron in and out, not brush it across like Dave did.

author: onlyrgu
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: March 12, 2018, 11:45:20 am
content: I used to have hits for Halloween, But now I'm blindly love with my ES120. Dave I think a comparison video will be awesome!!

author: Maxlor
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 12, 2018, 12:40:46 pm
content: Quote from: onlyrgu on March 12, 2018, 11:45:20 amI knew that screwdriver was fancy, I didn't know it could solder too!

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 12, 2018, 01:39:01 pm
content: Quote from: eV1Te on March 11, 2018, 10:18:19 pmYes, I've seen the insulation on mine start to melt above the max temp.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 12, 2018, 01:41:43 pm
content: Quote from: gearshredder on March 11, 2018, 09:44:13 pmSorry but 2nd hand stuff does not count for review comparisons.Potentiallythousands of peoplebuy stuff based on my reviews, 2nd hand doesn't cut it.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 12, 2018, 01:44:39 pm
content: Quote from: Towger on March 11, 2018, 09:18:48 pmIt doesn't matter. It doesn't not meet my requirement of a bench soldering station.My blog, my rules

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 12, 2018, 02:26:55 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on March 12, 2018, 01:44:39 pmAnd what do you think about the T12 that I've linked?It actually looks quite decent IMHO.

author: Spence
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: March 12, 2018, 04:50:22 pm
content: I have the Weller WE1010 and been using it for about 2 mouths now and I'm not really very happy with it. Sure it works just fine but it has a few issues that I feel it really should not have.1. It is really very slow too heat up and just as slow to recover. I also had to add +25C offset to get it to its set temp.2. No presets?? WHY??? It would have not costed anymore to add this function to this unit.3. Wake up from stand by!! Takes for ever if you can get it to do it, so every time you want to wake it up you have to push a button! How much would have it added for them to add switch in the pencil??4. Ok this is a small one BUT,,,, NO back light??? In the sale photos it looks like the LCD is back lit, but it's not,, why?? at some angels with the lighting that I have I cant see the LCD because of the glare. With a back light this would not be a issue plus it would also be a indicator that the unit is on. Sure I could hack it and add a few 3mm led's but I really should not have to do that at the $115.But with all that is does solder well and I really do like the pencil though it does get hot when used for a long time,,, because I have to keep the stand by set at 60min.I may try a Quick just to see how they work..

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 12, 2018, 04:52:51 pm
content: Weller has the heating element in the sleeve ! That wobbly bit in the middle is just the temperature probe. The actual heater sits in the outer portion.No chance of breaking the ceramic cartridge with weller.that being said. The response of the iron is actually good. The hako reacts way too fast.Here is the problem : Flux takes time to activate and it should be (almost) completely gone by the time you enter the liquid phase of the solder. Heat it too fast and not only will it evaporate too fast , it will spatter , flinging blobs of unactivated flux, and possibly tin , everywhere on the board.There is nothing worse than having remnants of unactivated flux on the board. it will eat copper over time. People forget that unactivated flux is very corrosive stuff. Activated flux still poses problems. it can be electrically conductive (especially rosin based) , or absorb moisture and saponify (water soluble)If the iron has too much thermal mass or too fast a response time you will spatter the flux leading to a bad joint.The right tool for the right job. you don't solder a TQFP with a petrol stoked iron , nor do you solder a TO220 with a microtouch ... ( although you can with the right tip )Keep in mind that this is an entry level allround soldering iron. More advanced stations actually know what tip is inserted ( the ones with the active tips where the heating element and sensor are inside the tip and thrown away at end-of-life ) and they adapt their response time appropriately.As for the hako. Looks like fisher-price.... Sorry. but that colour scheme is just .. wrong for a technical device. Imagine Agilent /keysight having test equipment that looks like that ... it'd look like Tektronix ...The weller aqua blue is their 'trade dress' just like brown/yellow fluke. weller has used that color since the 60's ...I'll stick to weller and Ersa any time. The other players are too young.

author: Towger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 12, 2018, 05:37:20 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on March 12, 2018, 01:44:39 pmHave a look at the price of a real Hakko FX888D in Europe, it is far from entry level. Maplin had them for a ripoff €224, reduced to €179 by the liquidator.https://www.maplin.ie/p/hakko-fx-888d-70w-mains-solder-station-a86uf€179 is $280 AUD, for that money there is plenty of other choices.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 12, 2018, 05:37:33 pm
content: Quote from: free_electron on March 12, 2018, 04:52:51 pmManufacturers describe certain fluxes as "no-clean flux" because it is not essential to clean it off the board after soldering. Appropriately designated fluxes do no harm if left behind.QuoteIf you splatter the flux you are using too high a temperature. The flux should melt and softly bubble, not splatter or burn.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 12, 2018, 05:52:41 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on March 12, 2018, 05:37:33 pmProvided it is fully activated ! unactivated no-clean is just as bad as , if not worse than , regular flux ...QuoteIf you splatter the flux you are using too high a temperature. The flux should melt and softly bubble, not splatter or burn.That is why the temperature on the tip should 'dip'. Look at a reflow curve. there is a time for warmup , an activation time, a ramp to liquid phase , a liquid phase and a cooldown.The same is true for solder wire. the formulation for the powder flux in solder wire is different from the liquid fluxes out of a pen.The flux inside hollow core wire can not come out of the wire before the solder has gone liquid !Liquid flux is added before the solder goes liquid. The flux core comes out once the solder has gone liquid.I see many times peple mixing fluxes. one type in the core , another type in the pen ... big nono !You need to stick to the same manufacturer of solder and flux. And you need to use compatible liquid flux that is appropriate for the wire being used.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 12, 2018, 05:57:21 pm
content: Quote from: Towger on March 12, 2018, 05:37:20 pmHow about Italy ?https://www.batterfly.com/shop/hakko_fx-888d

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 12, 2018, 06:24:57 pm
content: Quote from: free_electron on March 12, 2018, 05:52:41 pmI really don't think so. Activated flux "RA" or "rosin, activated" type is quite corrosive and must be cleaned after soldering. The less active types like "RMA" or plain "R" are less corrosive and can often be left behind.QuoteI don't have any solder wires with powder flux inside them. In every case it is gel flux, and it runs out of the wire when heated, and before the wire itself has melted. That's why high quality soldering procedures require you to cut off the used end of the solder wire before each new joint and start with a fresh cut end.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 12, 2018, 07:51:21 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on March 12, 2018, 06:24:57 pmwith 'activated' i mean heated to the point it begins to work. The flux is 'spent' ( not necessarily fully evaporated ) if 'unused' flux remains : that is corrosive. 'used' flux ( flux that can no longer do its work, essentially the leftovers ) is not really corrosive the trouble begins when unused flux is left behind..Quotesame thing. some companies use a gel , some it is a powder like form (Stannol brand or multicore brand)QuoteAnd how many people know that one ??The common usage is: cheapest soldering iron , cheapest solder wire , one temperature setting : maximum. And heap on the solder.... Everyone wants a soldering stations and then dials it to maximum... "because it don't heat fast enough" for their liking.note : he is using ... a Weller...

author: Towger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 12, 2018, 08:45:58 pm
content: Vincent,What special soldering techniques (if any) are required to insure the reliability of automotive electronics in a zero vacuum environment?

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 13, 2018, 04:03:13 am
content: Quote from: Towger on March 12, 2018, 08:45:58 pmNone. It worked as well in space as on earth.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 13, 2018, 10:39:20 am
content: Quote from: free_electron on March 12, 2018, 04:52:51 pmCareful, the Metcal fanboys will be livid. Instant heat is their lord and savior

author: Towger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 13, 2018, 01:59:08 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on March 13, 2018, 10:39:20 amThis is confusing too fast with too much heat. It is the same train of thought as 'turn up' the heat for larger/heaver jobs. Turn it up to 11.

author: Towger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 14, 2018, 08:04:10 am
content: Rossmann's video response and rant on the price if Made in USA Pace soldering equipment.Note: The word Metcal is not mentioned.https://youtu.be/kmq769_ed9w

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 14, 2018, 08:18:29 am
content: You don't even have to pay $100 for a 951 clone.These china soldering stations take the same T12 tips that the hakko 951 use. With heater and tip in one.https://www.aliexpress.com/item/138x88x38mm-Digital-Soldering-Iron-Station-Temperature-Controller-EU-Plug-Temperature-180-435-Degrees-T12-Handle/32692999653.htmlSo you can get one for $38 and slap a genuine Hakko T12 tip on it.but TBH the tip that comes with it is actually not that bad, so you don't even need to do that.(It's a large chisel tip though, so no good for ultra small SMT, fine for 0805 though)

author: Sjokolade
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 14, 2018, 07:49:46 pm
content: Dave, did you throw away the small sponge pieces or did you follow Hakko's directions for the sponge ?If you did not fit the small pieces your sponge won't be damp.Edit:After looking at the video again I see you did not lay the two small sponges in the tray, they are still attached to the main sponge

author: gearshredder
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2018, 02:39:12 am
content: Quote from: free_electron on March 12, 2018, 04:52:51 pmWouldn't the temperature be less on the metcal in order to do the same job? hehe. Of course you only really have 3 main temperatures to pick from but you can limit the "reaction speed" by picking tip with less mass or further from the coil.The cost on the new soldering equipment is outrageous. That's why I buy used like from ebay and repair if I need to. But of course like dave said, It's not feasible for someone starting out. This is also a hobby for me so it doesn't really matter in the end lol.

author: TuxKey
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2018, 08:45:04 am
content: Quote from: Psi on March 14, 2018, 08:18:29 amlooks to good to be true.. i'm afraid it will burn down my house...in theory one could by this unit an use a Hakko tip for it..But still.... would be worth a test by his lordship mr.Joneswould consider shipping in to have a good technical review of this.. What do you say Dave

author: TuxKey
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2018, 09:01:53 am
content: Hi guys,i'm new to this forum and bin watching Dave's vids for a year or two now..i'm a total noob when it comes to electronics, soldering and such things..i'm a IT nurd Linux/Unix sysadmin.Currently taking sum time off..studding for my certs and all.For a long time i wanted to get in to building my own mechanical keyboards and modding older boards.i was all set to jump in and buy the FX-888D and the FR-301 bundle from batterfly.com for €375 did sum research watched tons of vids about both devices..BUT THEN i saw "Louis Rossmann" post his vid titled Soldering station technology & the lie of "SOLDERING PATRIOTISM"So i decided to watch all vids i can get my hands on, read about both..i knew about the TS100.. Asked around downloaded the manual and found out it got hot after 40min of use. The user manual states:After continuous use up to 40 minutes, the handle surface temperature will reach 50°C~60°C.Seems a bit toasty..i read pretty much all the comments in this thread..with my limited understanding this is what i understand..direct tip heater station is what Louis was referring to.Dave stated that these devices are more expensive so it's clear..as mentioned by free_electronKeep in mind that this is an entry level allround soldering iron. More advanced stations actually know what tip is inserted ( the ones with the active tips where the heating element and sensor are inside the tip and thrown away at end-of-life ) and they adapt their response time appropriately.So my question is two fold.1) @dave would you consider reviewing this?https://nl.aliexpress.com/item/110v-220V-digital-Soldering-Iron-Station-Temperature-Controller-T12-Handle/32345223517.html?spm=a2g0z.search0104.3.112.30e9607fZtqf7g&ws_ab_test=searchweb0_0,searchweb201602_2_10152_10151_10065_10344_10068_10342_10343_10340_10341_10696_10084_10083_10618_10304_10307_10301_10313_10059_10534_100031_10103_10627_10626_10624_10623_10622_10621_10620,searchweb201603_2,ppcSwitch_3&algo_expid=ef2a252e-684e-4e91-af7f-bbbff4c0f478-15&algo_pvid=ef2a252e-684e-4e91-af7f-bbbff4c0f478&priceBeautifyAB=02) as a noob soldering keyboards and later getting in the repairing electronics learning everything about electronics is it worthbuying the more expensive FX-951 and buying the de-soldering gun FR-301 or should i just go with the FX-888D?Please help..is the newer tech really that much better???Someone even suggested i look at the FM-204 with the FM-2027-3 ..that's a €1022 bundle !!!! OMG that's a bit on the high side of things..My head is spinning with info.

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2018, 03:14:27 pm
content: Rossman's advice is very short-sighted and only makes sense to hobbycist and mom/pop shops like his. And to me it is not about patriotism, which i myself do not give a dime for, but practicality, less headache during operation and money saving long term. It is one thing if you pull your iron out here and there and if the tip fails it is ok you can wait two weeks for another one arriving from Banggood, and it is totally different when you are on schedule to deliver products to your customers. You quickly realise that you do not want additional problems generated by your shitty tools and to have no manufacturers support. Did Rossman performed failure analysis for either the base stations or tips? Guess not because cheap was everything he was able to see.

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2018, 03:41:33 pm
content: Another point missed in the old tech vs. new tech discussion is that there are old tech soldering stations playing in the same professional league like the new tech ones, e.g. the ERSA i-CON with the i-Tool iron. Sadly they are ignored in most comparisons/shootouts.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2018, 05:39:43 pm
content: Quote from: Towger on March 14, 2018, 08:04:10 amnonsense ... the statement "jbc was first with heaters in tips in the 2000's" is blatantly false. Weller had that with their microtouch stations long before that ! i had my first microtouch in 1992 ...

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2018, 05:55:22 pm
content: Don't forget Metcal in the 80s and early 90s..

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2018, 06:38:00 pm
content: Quote from: Towger on March 14, 2018, 08:04:10 amCould someonepleaseremind Louis Rossmann that it is entirely acceptable tocuta video?!I lasted through nearly 5 minutes of him switching windows, scrolling around the screen, wagging his mouse pointer, and trying to drag up other videos while I stared at a black screen. But this thing goes on for 30 minutes total! Unwatchable, and an imposition on the viewer.Louis, if you read this: You can do better than that! (And you should, really.)

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2018, 06:38:36 pm
content: It was a livestream.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2018, 06:46:39 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on March 15, 2018, 06:38:36 pmAnd it is painful to watch.I am sure it was just as painful when it was streamed live.I just can't be bothered wasting my time on this -- especially given the total lack of interesting, new information in that video. Come on, the only "data" he shows in 30 minutes are from a JBC ad? (And he acknowledges that there is probably some marketing spin on that one, and then continues to treat it as gospel?!) Thanks, but no thanks.

author: timelessbeing
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2018, 11:16:33 pm
content: Same here. I don't have hours to spare to watch his videos.

author: rrinker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2018, 05:29:15 pm
content: While it's rather obvious the 'modern' style will recover faster, I've had no complaints with my 'old style' Xytronic, which I originally purchased for my other hobby, not just electronics. That being, model railroading - for soldering rail and building my own turnouts (switches). If nickel silver rail isn't a huge heat sink I don't know what is, and I've never had any issues with the temp holding up to make repeated joints, sometimes soldering two rails together, sometimes soldering rails to cut pieces of copper clad board used as ties.As Dave said, it may make sense for more of a production environment, but for hobbyist use, even on things relatively heavy like the model train rail, I don't see any issues. And of course I've used it for electronics as well, no problems assembling any number of boards or doing point to point circuits. The model I have is only rated at 45 watts, too.My only regret is not buying one of these things 30 years ago. I used to have an array of traditional irons, from 15 watt to 60 watt, to handle a range of jobs. This one replaced them all, except the heavy duty gun (and torch for plumbing). Despite the basic equipment I used back in the day, I never fried a component - of course I always socketed any IC.

author: Cliff Matthews
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 22, 2018, 01:10:06 am
content: Tossing in a monkey-wrench: Funny German reworks 245w JBC mega-tip to fit the TS-100 (gifted to him by Frankie no less..)

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 26, 2018, 05:56:39 am
content: QuoteA lot of members are also on T12 clone fans, so I don't think his opinion is terribly unpopular. But...For a guy claiming "I'll 100% go for the cheap rip-off of a better/newer technology"1. He uses genuine Hakko 951. This is not a knockoff2. The iron he used before the 951, IIRC, was a cheap knockoff of 936.His experience would appear to be comparing the genuine Hakko 951 as representative of the "newer technology" vs a $30.00 Chinese import to represent the "old school" ceramic heater irons. This is exactly the opposite of what he advocates. Maybe he assumes some performance differences as being attributable to the "new technology" where they may really be due to Hakko quality. And similarly, you can't use a random Chinese 936 clone and expect it to be representative to a Hakko 888. They are not the same product. This is perhaps an even bigger assumption. The performance of a ceramic heater 936 style of iron depends heavily on the construction and materials in the handpiece.3. When he "reviewed" a 951 knockoff... And this was way back when TS100 and T12 clones weren't everywhere and I was actually interested in hearing about hands-on impression and performance comparisons... Well.. the short takeaway I recall was he attempted to solder a large SMD connector with the knockoff using a fine point tip (which even he said while doing it, it was the wrong tip for the job); then the genuine station he used an appropriate 3mm bevel tip, which aside from the spatula is essentially the biggest, baddest tip you can put in a 951. No surprise, the proper tip worked way better. Then he found a penis-shaped soldering joint in the clone and proclaimed it was a POS. This was very disappointing and a total waste of time. I'm still angry I watched/skipped through pretty much all of that video looking for actual performance data and some kind of pertinent if not objective opinion.

author: TheAmmoniacal
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 26, 2018, 07:27:18 am
content: Louis Rossmann's opinion is based on his review of a fake FX-951:He would pick this over any new "old technology" forwhat he is doing.

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 26, 2018, 07:51:52 am
content: ^ Are you defending him?This IS the "review/comparison" I was talking about.If you can provide a timestamp which suggests he did anything but compare markings/housings, critique the quality of solder joints, do a single comparison with polar opposite tip types, and repeatedly call this knockoff crap with nothing to back that up, I will be glad to have it. I remember scouring through this vid in disbelief that this was the entirety of the substance. In addition to the lack of information in the video, I also did not get the impression that he tried it out or kicked the tires beyond what was shown here. You could easily show why it's crap if it is so. Maybe scope the power output waveform. Show the problems with response algorithm. Maybe put a thermocouple on it. Check that the psu has enough output relative to the genuine. Or... use it for awhile?QuoteAnd his experience with any of this "new old technology" is what, exactly? I watched several of his early vids, and I'm pretty sure he used a cheap 936 knockoff before upgrading to the 951. Perhaps he is over-generalizing his experience with this cheap Chinese knockoff to the top hakko, weller, ersa, and pace irons which use passive tips? In this vid, he does nothing but bash the knockoff with no objective reasoning other than penis-shaped soldering joints and a connector that doesn't snap-fit as nicely. And now he says this POS he has hardly used is obviously better than an Ersa Pico or 888 or Weller 1010 which he has maybe never used?

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 26, 2018, 08:02:33 am
content: Quote from: KL27x on March 26, 2018, 07:51:52 amI find that the signal/noise ratio of Rossman's live streams is generally extremely poor. I don't think he is doing himself a favor with these -- it is a rapid way to generate "content", but also a great way to damage his reputation.Personally, I don't watch his stuff any more, because I feel it is a waste of time.

author: Nusa
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 26, 2018, 05:47:18 pm
content: Quote from: KL27x on March 26, 2018, 07:51:52 amI'm not going to rewatch to hunt down timestamps for you, but you're overdoing the rant for something you actually admit you only skimmed through rather than watched.a) So what about whatever history he has with 936 type irons? Most of us have that kind of history. They STILL work well enough for hobbyists, but virtually everyone who's tried the better technology prefers it. What's your point?b) Yes, the tip he used initially was the wrong tip for the job, and he said as much. Later, he used one of his genuine tips in the knockoff iron and deemed the iron reasonably powerful and the performance acceptable.c) He spent some time ripping Hakko when talking about the genuine irons user interface. They deserved that, in my opinion.d) There were differences in the knockoff. Most obviously, the auto-cooldown feature was missing entirely, which means it's an always on iron. The handle design was also different, not even close enough to be called a knockoff. The cradle was crappy with a sponge instead of brass wire.e) He did a teardown at the end. The soldering quality of the pcb construction really did suck. Besides that penis-blob, he knocked off some solderballs. And as the title picture shows, the LED leads were left unclipped, which is somewhat less than professional.f) How much have you donated to Louis for making videos? I suspect you got more value than you paid, no matter how much you hated it.

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 26, 2018, 06:28:53 pm
content: QuoteScoured more than skimmed. Like after watching it, in it's entirety, I had to go back to make sure I didn't miss whatever it was that led him to act like the iron could solder for shit. Don't need timestamps for any of that. I remember all that fluff.None of that stuff should make one believe the iron can't solder for shit given the use of the same, genuine tips. Yet that is the impression he throws off throughout the video.Rant? Unclipped leads are why an expert knows the thing can't solder for shit before he even tests it objectively. Got it.Quote"Reasonably" powerful and "acceptable." What a waste of breath. If it is less powerful or less responsive than the genuine, as this clearly implies, it should be easy to demonstrate. I expected a half hour video to show each station doing the same job using the same genuine tips for at least a few seconds of that ghastly video, maybe? Even better, he could have soldered a wire to the plus and minus traces of each station and scoped the output while touching (the same tip, duh, and set and verified to be set to the same temp) to a wet sponge or something. 3 minutes of that would be worth more than his entire video "comparison." (If you call what I do a rant, you can't even call this a comparison or review; this video is the rant). He doesn't even deserve to offer an opinion on relative soldering performance based on anything he did in this entire video.QuoteThis isn't the problem. He used the shitty tip on the knockoff and the polar opposite tip on the genuinein his only side-by-side comparison test.*Can someone really be oblivious enough to do this on accident and not take 10 minutes to redo this test? Maybe he is so smart he knows his core audience wants to see a beat down and rant. Maybe his core audience is really that... uh... there for this entertainment vs insight. And his own acknowledgement of the tip difference didn't stop him from implying the knockoff couldn't solder for shit.But now this station that can't solder for shit is amazing. Compared to $100+ dollar stations. Because it has knockoff elf technology. Comparing this cartridge thing to outdated BS technology that is in use in high end business everywhere, we don't need to test how it works. We don't care about unclipped leads or sleep or other features. But when comparing the real 951 to the knockoff, somehow all these little nitpicks means the knockoff can't solder for shit.*This elf technology is so much better, you can just stick a BR tip on there and drag solder big connectors, right? That's the point? He didn't even attempt it with the genuine station; he put the biggest tip on it.

author: Cliff Matthews
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 26, 2018, 07:43:40 pm
content: FWIW, Pace postedsome solder tip infoin manufacturing. Handy facts one wouldn't think of.. (some sponges contain sulfur?)

author: LektroiD
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 08, 2018, 11:08:40 am
content: I just bought the Weller WE1010, but I think I have a faulty unit, as the backlight shown on all their marketing ads is not working, and I can't find a way to switch it on. I've sent the following message to Weller about the issue... I'll post up any further correspondence from them...Quote

author: Nusa
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 08, 2018, 01:12:00 pm
content: Quote from: LektroiD on June 08, 2018, 11:08:40 amI don't think there is a backlight, nor have I seen any actual photographs/videos/audio/text that claim there's a backlight. However, most of Wellers ads and box art are clearly rendered graphics, not actual images/videos. I agree that might be a bit misleading.

author: labjr
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 08, 2018, 02:35:23 pm
content: Looks like the price went up too. You can get a Pace for $100 more.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 08, 2018, 08:49:09 pm
content: Fluke and others base the temperature rating of those thermocouples on the insulation. The ones with Teflon insulation work for soldering iron tip measurements but the lower temperature ones work fine also even though their insulation near the tip eventually scorches.I really like the old Weller Magnastat irons. They have a good selection of inexpensive tips and old stations can be refurbished inexpensively.The Weller WES51, WESD51, and WE1010 all use the Weller ET series tips which is nice since they are readily available and inexpensive. I wish Weller had an ET series vacuum desoldering tool though.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 05, 2018, 12:11:59 pm
content: The magic smoke escaped!

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 05, 2018, 03:22:29 pm
content: Doh!Many years ago I lent my nice and expensive Weller Magnastat 120 volt AC pencil iron to a friend who did contracting work whose soldering iron had failed. He returned it a couple of days later saying it did not work either. It ends up what had happened was that the new 120 volt AC wall plug he was using at the contracting site was wired incorrectly to 240 volts AC which is what burned out his soldering iron also.

author: ciccio
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2018, 07:53:19 pm
content: Weller does not use primary fuses in none of their station, and I believe they never did. I've never seen one.I don't understand this design choice, but I must admit that I've never seen a damaged transformer in none ot the tenths of Weller stations I've worked with or that were in the benches near mine.The mains wiring of Dave's station in not compliant with safety regulations and good workmanship standards: the three female terminals are un-insulated and the three wires are not tied toghether, as is considered a good practice. If one of the them is detached by accident, it can touch one of the others, with safety risks: ground terminal can touch live, resulting in a live soldering tip, or short live and neutral....The transformer's lamination are welded together to save money and assembly time, and are not intercrossed (I don't know the ecorrect english term) as in good EI transformers.This results in a non serviceable transformer.This soldering station is EXPENSIVE, for what you get.. it should made to a more professional standard.Best regards

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2018, 08:18:48 pm
content: Dave, I just wanted to let you know that my FX-888D came with a nice (approx) 2mmchiseltip.I don't know if this is standard now but mine did.I don't remember exactly when I got it, probably around the same time as this video came out.I bought it from Frys when it went on sale for $90.

author: Emrtech
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 08, 2020, 05:56:47 am
content: I purchased recently for evaluation purposes an original FX-888D station from the USA which arrived today. I also had ordered intentionally another FX-8801 clone iron and clone tips for evaluation. Well! The results are so far rather interesting. BTW, the FX-888D perorms as expected quite nicely. However, under real world heavier heat sucking FR4 soldering, the WE1010 has clearly the edge in thermal capacity. One aspect, that clearly came to light, comparing some of the results from Daves video is, that the fast apparent warmup time compared to the WE1010 is not terribly meaningful at all. It only indicates, that the heater core warms up very quickly to the setpoint. The tip, actually, requires another 10s to start melting solder after the display has stabilized with the heater LED dp slowly blinking. It is understandable when one considers, the rather large clearances between heater rod and the internal tip diameter. I tried to use a thin copper foil sleeve to experimentally observe the difference in heating power before and after and it indicates that the tip heating is predominantly driven by the infrared radiation to the tip sleeve internal surface. When using a small copper wedge to push the heater against one side off the tip sleeve, actually improves thermal performance. A circular neat sleeve, however makes it worse. Anyways, in this light, the WE1010 exhibits a more realistic and honest warmup response. For example, when I cool down the tip of the Hakko iron with a moist sponge, the heater DP does hardly react, no matter how long it gets cooled down. It recovers very quickly. Anyways, I am not sure the FX-8801 and similar soldering irons are very effective transferring heat to the tip. Sadly, in spite of Daves video, the WE1010 outperforms the Hakko on FR4 ground plane soldering. The WE1010 tip immediately liquifies existing solder and allows driving it along a seam. The Hakko struggles a bit when trying the same. I want to repeat, the Hakko is a good station and is very pleasant to work with and will do many jobs quite well. It is not my intention to take sides, or worse, try to be a fanboy of either.The above are only my first impressions.Now to the clone items. Well, it looks pretty bad. The groundplane soldering of the clone iron is considerably waeker and the tip does not willingly liquify solder. No comparison to either the WE1010 or the Hakkko.Investigating and inspecting the clone iron reveals many differences which I will describe. The issue here is clearly design and manufacturing issues. Visually it looks very good and even the silk screen is very similar, but different when performing a side by side comparison. The quality feels alright. Without the original side by side it is hard to tell which is which. The cable is of the silicone type and as flexible as the original Hakko iron cable. The DIN connector is a different model, but seems OK. The handle shows some differences as well. The 20mm diameter heater assembly retaining threaded Plastic screw sleeve is slightly larger than the original and will not fit into a Hakko stand without some careful filing in a lathe. No big deal. The Handle moulding has a step rather than the graduated interface, allowing the gray sleeve to fit better on the Hakko. The clone is just heat shrunk and underneath there is no support. No big deal again. Removing the barrel to expose tip and heater is a different story. The original Hakko is perfectly centric in the axial direction whereas the clone points slightly to the side. The ceramic heater is also slightly off axis. Howver, the sleeve design allows for that.Then, I started to take exact physical measurements of heater and clone tips. There are considerable diferences between the two units. The Hakko has a slightly thicker ceramic heater and smaller diameter tip sleeve internal diameter whereas the clone is opposite. The heater diameter is less and the clone tips are made of lighter material and larger i.d. Hence, there is way more play between heater and tip sleeve in the clone. The Hakko feels somewhat snug in comparison. Experimented with copper sleeves in the clone. When I use a copper insert only on side to establish physical contact at least on ones side the tip sleeve, the the tip performance improves notably on the Hakko original tip. The clone tips are made of lighter material and looser overall soecs. There is a 0.64mm difference in diameters in the clone and about 0.3 in the Hakko.Please keep in mind this is only one sample and not necessarily representative of all units out there. My conclusion is, buy only original Hakko tip and the iron if you must replace it. At least install an original Hakko heater element. Thin copper foil definitely helps to improve performance. There is also a notable difference in heater resistance between cold and hot. About 3.3 Ohm when cold and about double that when hot. That suggests serious overloading of the transformer on startup. Only the hot iron consums the rated power. During warmup, thr transformer must limit the current as much as it can.Anyways, as far as the iron is concerned, in actual heavy soldering the WE1010 station iron performs in my opinion thermally somewhat better. The faster warmup time of the Hakko is unrealistic and does not convey the true picture because of the poor thermal coupling.To Dave: I could never get my station to show a drop in temperature, even if I exposed the tip to the moist sponge such as you showed in the video. Perhaps the changed the FW to show only the warmup cycle and then indicate the setpoint only. I will have to read the manual carefully if I somehow missef a specific setting to display actual temperature of the sensor. Your station only took a while. I cannot get it to change when I thermally load the iron.On a side note, the strange Hakko user interface is not as bad as I was led to believe from comments on the net. It might be a good idea to keep the manual close at hand. Settings are not really that horrible to change. The recall feature is definitely nice. In my opinion, the Hakko is definitely worth considering as long as it is not a cheaply designed clone. The short comings of the clone iron are clearly manufacturing quality controlled poor clone design. Even the clone could perform much better if only the makers had paid more attention to fine detail and dimensional tolerances. Perhaps, the heaters are even original, but are Hakko gray market rejects the failed the QA. The handle and cable feels as good as the original.As to the durability of the tops, only time will tell. The new tips definitely take solder very well. But only real use will reaveal their durability capability. But for many reasons only buy original Hakko tips. As Dave has said many times before, they (clones) are not really worth it.I hope my first little dive into the Hakko investigation was of interest to some of you.Until next time. I am planning to create a comparison document with all hard facts and photos. I am also planning to instrument a tip with an internal TC sensor to assess warmup latency of the heater to tip interface on both Hakko and Weller irons.