PCB Design And Order - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / projects

author: ChrisGreece52
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2013, 11:27:31 am
content: Hello I always wanted to etch my own pcbs but the thing is that its is pretty complicated especially for a begginer with no room for etching (like basement or a warehouse) so i would like to find out if there is any website that you order pcbs to and they manufacture them.I can design the pcbs with eagle and just send the design so i can save money by making compact pcbs.Anyway i need them to be pretty cheap (i am a high school student in one of the poorest countries in the world.)and as good quality as it can getTHANK YOU

author: Thor-Arne
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 18, 2013, 11:40:31 am
content: PerhapsItead.

author: 2nOrderEDO
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2013, 11:43:15 am
content: You can use OSH Park as well. Maybe is a little bit expensive than Itead, but it seems like they do high quality PCBs.

author: ChrisGreece52
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2013, 12:36:02 pm
content: Quote from: Thor-Arne on March 18, 2013, 11:40:31 amThanks for that cheap pcbs AND low cost shipping 3.9 like tayda u have saved my life.

author: ChrisGreece52
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2013, 12:36:41 pm
content: Quote from: 2nOrderEDO on March 18, 2013, 11:43:15 amThanks but i cant find the website would be easy for you to throw a link down below** Nevermind found it pretty good site ill upload a circuit board that i have designed and come back with the result (also shipping is crusial)

author: Thor-Arne
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 18, 2013, 12:47:55 pm
content: Note that Itead is rather slow, but it's cheap.For fast delivery you'll have to pay alot more.

author: ChrisGreece52
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2013, 12:50:28 pm
content: Quote from: Thor-Arne on March 18, 2013, 11:40:31 amI dont get how it works. ..... you just order a pcbwhat about the board design and stuff?

author: Thor-Arne
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 18, 2013, 12:53:43 pm
content: You have to upload the Gerbers, perhaps after completing the order.I haven't used Itead, but that's the way it's normally done.Make sure your Gerbers is perfect before uploading.

author: ChrisGreece52
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2013, 01:06:25 pm
content: Ok thank you

author: KJDS
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2013, 01:19:33 pm
content: Quote from: Thor-Arne on March 18, 2013, 12:53:43 pmand once you've made sure they are perfect, get a friend to reverse engineer the layout back to a schematic and check that too. Make sure that every decoupling cap is close enough to make a difference, that you've got all the grounds properly grounded, that your sensitive analogue circuitry isn't right next to noisy digital lines, that the board is the right size, with fixing holes to match the metalwork, with the interface connectors where you want them. Check the footprints of the ICs match what you've actually bought. Many ICs come in several package variants.I could go on, there's easily sixty separate things worth checking on a complex board, but that'll do to start.

author: ChrisGreece52
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2013, 02:19:13 pm
content: Quote from: KJDS on March 18, 2013, 01:19:33 pmOK thank you.

author: Kremmen
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2013, 08:55:17 pm
content: Quote from: ChrisGreece52 on March 18, 2013, 12:50:28 pmYou buy a fabrication from Itead in the webstore, say 10 pcs of 5x5 cm boards or whatever. You pay the order and Itead gives you an order code. Next you email your gerbers to Itead identifying them with the order code you got. They have the gerber file naming rules and other restrictions on their website. If everything is OK, they mfg the boards and mail them. If not, you will hear from them.

author: ChrisGreece52
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2013, 09:08:06 pm
content: Thank you got understood most of it but i have to ask one thing what is the greber thing

author: ChrisGreece52
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2013, 09:13:03 pm
content: The eagle outputs a .brd file that is rejected by Osh Park .... what can i do

author: moemoe
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2013, 09:14:40 pm
content: http://www.bilex-lp.com/user_d/index.phpdirectly takes your eagle files.Gerber is another output format that contains the layout of your board, you can create it with eagle. Google tells you how

author: 8086
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2013, 09:16:07 pm
content: You need to use the gerber export tool to generate gerber files. You have tried to give them the eagle save file which is not a manufacturing file. Any pcb manufacturer will accept gerbers.This should help, there is a section about CAM export:http://www.sparkfun.com/tutorials/109

author: KJDS
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2013, 10:09:27 pm
content: and once you have the gerber, use GCPrevue or a similar gerber viewer to make sure that nothing silly has been generated.Nothing worse than finding layer 7 of a 12 layer board, which is a ground plane, has clearance rings round every ground via.Actually it could be worse, you could have fifty boards made, populated with a lot of components that are on long lead times that are now unusable.

author: ChrisGreece52
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2013, 10:29:51 pm
content: Thank you all and i think that this sparkfun guide will help me a lot.

author: MacAttak
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 21, 2013, 06:28:48 pm
content: OSH Park only supports 2-layer boards (4-layer as special order), so he probably won't run into a problem with the 7th layer of a 12 layer boardI like the OSH Park board quality myself, and the price is pretty good. The gold pads on deep violet solder mask is quite pretty. Perfect for the LSU fans out there.The gotcha is that you have to order your design from there in groups of 3 at a time. Which I guess isn't so bad since it gives you two backups in case you do something dumb like not noticing that your soldering station is turned up way too high and you end up disintegrating the pads (nope, never done that).

author: ChrisGreece52
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2013, 11:16:02 pm
content: Thanks for that i needed a review for this site and it think that i can design boards and order 3 boards every time each for a different project

author: tylerl
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2013, 08:07:35 am
content: Don't forget aboutBatchPCB. They make low-count orders reasonably inexpensive. You may also want to look for local companies; my favorite PCB manufacturer has a location here in my own town, which eliminates shipping.For at-home etching, you don't need a place in your house; outdoors someplace out-of-the-way is fine as well. Just bring some water for rinsing and a few empty containers. Andcupric chlorideis a lot easier to come by than ferric chloride -- you make it yourself using swimming pool (muriatic) acid and peroxide. It won't etch as many metals as ferric chloride will, but it will etch copper which is all you care about.

author: ChrisGreece52
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2013, 08:26:26 am
content: Thank you for your answer i will consider that because i can get an open space to etch my boards but the problem is that i need to make the laser print for the pcb's or the other stuff i cant access to and will cost much to buy.

author: poorchava
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2013, 09:30:40 am
content: DIY pcbs are not that messy to do.bare laminate - cheap, get it from auction site200ml of positive20 photosensitive lacquer - in poland ~80PLN so roughly 20€. It's good for about 1 sq. meter of pcbsource of UV - cheapest way i found is to buy manicurist nail polish curing UV lamp. 36W type can be had for 15€ or so on ebay. + you get a crude timerNaOH - bought in any home utility store or supermarket as drain cleaner powder (almost pure NaOH)Some ethchant: sodium persulfate (Na2S04), HCl+H202 mix, ferric chloride - whatever you like and have access too. I prefer HCL+H202 because it doesn't need heating and is very fast acting (+you can etch aluminum paste stencils with it)transparent film - very cheap, from any office supplysome strong solvent - acethone (nail polish remover), paint thinners etc (cheap, from pharmacy or hardware store)~400 grit sandpaper - cheap, hardware storeabrasive cleaning powder - supermarket/home utility storepiece of acryllic or glass - cheapest i found was to buy a crude photo framedrill - cheap-ass dremel clone from you local hardware store (dunno what you have in greece, but in Poland typically Castorama, Leroy-Merlin, OBI, Jula, Praktiker) - around 10€.You can make whole setup for around 70-100€ i think.

author: ChrisGreece52
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2013, 10:28:23 am
content: I am sorry but this is a huge list i am going to think about it seriously and in depth

author: Rerouter
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2013, 10:37:26 am
content: that is the UV negative approach, most beginners begin with the laser printer reversal like i believe you where planning, just remember to really max out the ink darkness,by comparison you only need the transfer film, a clothes iron, some enchant and a non reactive tray such as polystyrene, for the toner transfer method,to prevent a religious debate I'm not blowing UV out the door, just saying that in raw materials and method the toner transfer is easier for beginners,

author: ChrisGreece52
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2013, 12:26:33 pm
content: Thank you but i think that laser printers are rather expensive....

author: ChrisGreece52
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2013, 12:31:38 pm
content: Quote from: Rerouter on March 22, 2013, 10:37:26 amWill a regular inject printer do the job or i need a laser one.

author: Rerouter
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2013, 12:35:47 pm
content: you need the laser as it forms a barrier against the enchant, near all inks will disperse into the enchant primarily due to it being a liquid over anything else, a good example would be if you had a few drops of water hit your page, the ink will spread while the laser printed pages will generally retain there original shape, due to not being water soluble,rather than buy a laser printer in the mean while, have a walk down to your local copy shop, and ask them about printing a 1 off copy to your transfer sheet on a laser printer with maximum toner density, they may want to charge a bit more for the extra toner, but its no different to most greeting or wedding card stuff they see,

author: ChrisGreece52
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2013, 01:11:53 pm
content: I saw a video where a guy actually drawn the lines for the components to etch the board later.

author: Rerouter
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2013, 01:27:49 pm
content: in almost all of those cases its using a fine point permanent marker, or at least a very similar mix of ink, not printer type ink,if you do wish to draw down your design like that, i have found the artline fineline markers will work but only if you give them a full day for the design to dry, however someone else may be able to recommend a far better brand and model of fine marker, as it will begin to disperse if your solution is hotter than 60 degrees,

author: ChrisGreece52
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2013, 04:30:19 pm
content: That wont work at all.... i will need a fridge to cool the chemicals down to 15 celcius.

author: tylerl
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2013, 08:50:12 pm
content: Quote from: ChrisGreece52 on March 22, 2013, 01:11:53 pmYep. Sharpie markers work just fine. In fact, my local components store actually sells these markers labeled as "etch resistant marker" -- same brand, same markers, same stuff.http://www.instructables.com/id/Making-a-Hand-Drawn-PCB

author: ChrisGreece52
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2013, 11:25:41 pm
content: Thank you i think that the biggest problem was just the laser printer for me because the chemicals are pretty easy to find online and cheap too.

author: ChrisGreece52
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2013, 11:35:18 pm
content: So to sum up i will need a markerhttp://www.ebay.com/itm/221144307324?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649pcb etchant ( i searched pcb etchant on ebay)http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-200g-bag-Process-Reagent-Etchant-for-Copper-PCB-Environmentally-Friendly-/290815868467?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item43b5f9fe33(i am not sure if this will do the job... )copper sheetshttp://www.ebay.com/itm/Copper-Clad-Laminate-Board-Single-Side-7-9cm-EM12-/171011950183?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item27d11b4667and i am ready to go !!!( or not i am not sure)....Thank you.

author: Thor-Arne
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 23, 2013, 12:21:24 am
content: If you're going for the pen method, I strongly suggest you get some transfer symbols for the pads or you're going to get into trouble aligning the pads/holes.You can find thosehereor just google "pcb transfer symbol".

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 23, 2013, 12:28:04 am
content: Is it just me, or does that etchant not say what itis? I'd be a bit nervous to buy a chemical from Hong Kong meant for dissolving metal that doesn't even have a name!I'd search for "ferric chloride" or "sodium persulfate". The ferric chloride works faster at room temperature, but it's sold as a liquid (heavy, for shipping, and you don't get as much in a bottle), and it's dark, so you can't watch the board etch without periodically fishing it out. Sodium persulfate is sold as a powder that you mix into water, and the solution is clear. It's slow at room temperature, so I usually heat it in a glass bowl.You should pay attention to what kind of copper clad board you are getting. If it's fiberglass (FR4), you'll have a "fun" time trying to drill the holes without carbide bits and a proper drill press. Get phenolic (FR2). Again, if it doesn't say, don't buy it.

author: Thor-Arne
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 23, 2013, 12:35:31 am
content: Very good point, who knows what's in those chemicals.A local pharmacy or a hardware store might have ferric chloride to, perhaps the safest option.

author: ChrisGreece52
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 23, 2013, 12:16:16 pm
content: Quote from: Thor-Arne on March 23, 2013, 12:21:24 amThanks for the advice

author: ChrisGreece52
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 23, 2013, 12:17:08 pm
content: Quote from: c4757p on March 23, 2013, 12:28:04 amThank you i will search for sodium persulfate i guess

author: ChrisGreece52
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 23, 2013, 12:17:56 pm
content: Quote from: Thor-Arne on March 23, 2013, 12:35:31 amSeriouslyIll search for it at my local pharmacy and reply

author: ChrisGreece52
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 23, 2013, 12:19:21 pm
content: Found thishttp://www.ebay.com/itm/Sodium-persulfate-500g-/260905000311?pt=UK_BOI_Electrical_Components_Supplies_ET&hash=item3cbf265d77i will it will get the job done.

author: ChrisGreece52
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 24, 2013, 10:24:56 am
content: As for etching i found a great site from which i can get a liter of ferric chloride for only 10 eyro (15 bucks) and the shipping is only 5 eurp (7.5 bucks)but it has also ferric chloride in solid form and dont know how to use it but its cheaper... nevermind it also was the other etchant (the transparent one) that does not stain but its a lot slower which shall i choose