Dumb phone advice - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Infraviolet
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2025, 03:06:37 pm
content: I haven't been able to find exact switch-off dates yet, but the UK is closing down 2G and 3G soon and I think my handset (Samsung GT - C3590) only supports 2G and 3G (I'm not sure, I had a suspicion this model does 4G too but couldn;t find reference to that online).I deeply despise smartphones, I don't want a hand-brain occupying all my attention, I don't want a device in my pocket which is regularly reprogrammed by some corporate server and over which I don't have root control. Furthermore I don't particularly want to get an easily rootable smartphone either, that would solve some of the concerns but it would still be a device I'd have to "manage", I'd much rather take full control of my own device by rooting it that have a remote server to that to me, but I'd sooner yet have something to set up once then forget.So I'm after a 4G and 5G compatible (no point with 4G only as that will surely switch off before too long) dumb phone, the features I need are:Normal calling and SMSCamera (not a good one, just if I ever need a low res picture of something while out and about without a real camera)Must present itself as a normal USB mass storage device when connected to a Linux PC, so I can copy photos off and can use it like a memory stick for transferring arbitrary file formats between computers (I guess this means a phone which has an SD card slot for memory)Must take a normal UK style SIM card, in up to the maximum oldest sizeMust be able to set timing alarms on itMust have a calendar functionBeyond that I'd rather have no other features at all.Can anyone recommend models fitting that requirements list that can be easily bought, carrier unlocked, online?ThanksEDIT: not essential but desirable things to add to the list above:Battery would ideally be removable so it could be replacedIdeally phone could be opened and serviced with a screwdriver, ideally no glued in partsIdeally form factor would be a clamshell flip phone styleIdeally I might be able to find a full manual for the phone type online before buying, ideally one which gives a good overview off all the menus it has and where various settings can be found

author: Karel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2025, 03:28:53 pm
content: I would like to know that as well.For me ,the only two reasons to keep my smartphone are to use navigation for hiking (OsmAnd) andusb tethering (using the phone as 5G/4G modem) because I don't want to use "free" Wi-Fi in hotels and airports.

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2025, 04:09:44 pm
content: I haven't seen any feature phones (the marketing term) supporting 4G and 5G yet. Only 4G, e.g. HMD (Nokia). Anyhow, I wouldn't expect 4G to go away soon because 5G is based on 4G and there are many 4G devices in operation (the new legacy protocol after GSM).

author: factory
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2025, 04:13:15 pm
content: Just had a quick look at the stuff Agros sell, they only non-smart flip phones they have are the less well known brands, such as Doro, even then the cheapest one is only 2G, the other two are 2G/3G/4G, cameras are fairly crap, the most expensive (6820) at £89.99 is 2MP.What I don't know is whether they are 4G voice (aka voice over VoLTE) capable, this is important as basic 4G only does the web & text, this is the problem I have with a Sony phone (with 4G voice disabled in firmware).David

author: benseno
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2025, 07:31:00 pm
content: I recall some attempts to design linux phone free from android etc. But those are smartphone style phones. It should be possible that one day such dumbphone (if it is not already) will be available as 4g modules supporting VoLTE (key tech to allow call over data only 4g/5g) are already offered for sale. In worst case, we can build it ourselves.

author: aeg
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2025, 12:36:32 am
content: Most of the phones marketed as dumb phones are actually smart phones running Android or KaiOS. So you get the slowness, unreliability and bundled malware of a smart phone, along with the underpowered hardware of a dumb phone.When I was phone shopping in 2022, there were only two or three real dumb phones with 4G capability, running MOCOR for ThreadX (not MOCOR 5 which is Android). One is the Nokia (HMD) 225 4G (2020). A slightly improved version was released in 2024. Another is the AGM M6, but the people at AGM are utterly clueless, and their phone is known for randomly placing 911/999 calls by itself.I think nobody is going to produce a 5G dumb phone until the 4G sunset is already in progress.QuoteThe 225 4G (2020) does this, but it displays wrong timestamps for SMS.QuoteThe 225 4G (2020) mounts as USB MSC for downloading photos and uploading ringtones. The built-in 32 megabytes and the optional microSD card each show up as a separate block device. However, it seems like carrying around a keychain thumb drive might be more practical.QuoteNothing takes a full sized SIM any more. But the carriers all supply triple sized sims.QuoteRepairing a low-cost cell phone is not worth the effort.QuoteI believe all 4G flip phones are Androids; the dumb phones are candybar style. But maybe there's a new model or one I missed.Doro 6820 as identified by David is a flip phone.

author: wilfred
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2025, 01:18:23 am
content: Quote from: Infraviolet on February 08, 2025, 03:06:37 pmYou're asking for things almost no-one (too few for them to matter to phone companies) really values. You can tell this by the selection available. I have an elderly (93) aunt who likes her flip phone because she can intuitively open it to answer a call. That's about it for her.But whilst I do like the idea of a dumb phone and not being at risk of the phone taking over too much of my life. It is possible to have a smartphone and just use it as a phone. You'll get far better hardware than a low end dumb phone will ever have. However there are times when having such a versatile device at hand is too useful to leave at home. You can turn off updates and as far a system updates go, that comes to an end on cheap android devices soon enough. Don't know about Apple. I bought a cheap Motorola G14 and I'm perfectly satisfied with it. There are better cameras out there but it is way better than a dumb-phone camera will ever be.Two things that I have found useful is taking a picture of a price ticket in a supermarket that is clear enough for the store staff to scan a barcode from the screen and to save time with claiming an item for free at the checkout, if it scans at a higher price than the shelf ticket. And the other is the tram tracker app used here in Melbourne to tell me when the tram is due to arrive based on where it actually is and not the timetable. That has been surprisingly handy. Younger people seem to use google maps for a similar function but I deleted google maps.I am the type to clean away apps I don't want and check all setting to minimise/control the data I give away but as a pragmatist I accept what I must if it balances the benefit I receive. It might be time to release your inner pragmatist and not despise dumbphones as it is getting harder to avoid them. I used a Windows 532 right up until 3G was shut down in Australia. Not a dumb phone but pretty low end.

author: wilfred
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2025, 01:30:00 am
content: Quote from: aeg on February 09, 2025, 12:36:32 amBy the time that happens nearly everyone will have come through the ranks comfortable with a smartphone. If my ISP didn't throw in a landline at no extra cost I doubt I would still have one. Dumb phones will probably go the way of landlines and cheques being used by an aging population still used to them. Take your best guess which order they disappear in. Smartphones surely can be regarded as ubiquitous.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 09, 2025, 06:05:40 am
content: The Samsung C3590 is a 2G and 3G-only handset. It's not capable of LTE/4G. See:https://www.gsmarena.com/samsung_c3590-5846.phpIf it's anything like the 3G shutdown here, customers on old technology will receive automated messages advising you that your handset will need to be updated.

author: Karel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2025, 08:03:27 am
content: Quote from: wilfred on February 09, 2025, 01:18:23 amMe too. In addition, I have bluetooth and wi-fi always disabled in order to avoid tracking.Every now and then the phone complains that in order to improve "location" I should enable wi-fi. Hell no!

author: benseno
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2025, 09:04:04 am
content: Some pointsSIM cards are not needed for newer phones - eSIM feature allows to run SIM related functions on phone hardware without SIM card. There is nothing we can do if one day 99% phones will support it and Operator will enforce eSIM installation instead of offering physical SIM to subscribers.Cellular network is capable of location tracking, With 5G the accuracy should be improved due to dense base station installation in urban area. One can off the wifi and bluetooth, but it has limited effect.Voice call is an application and doesn't care which access type is used, be it 4g or 5g.If dumbest phone is what we need - walkie talkie integrated to the fixed phone seems a best alternative. Or, buy a pocket sized Faraday cage for occasional voice sms things.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2025, 09:08:09 am
content: Those dumb phones are cheap, and very little configuration and data transfer is needed to set up a new phone. I would not overthink this and just buy a 4G phone -- then cross the 5G bridge if and when it really become necessary, by which time suitable phones will be available.

author: Karel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 09, 2025, 01:54:02 pm
content: Quote from: benseno on February 09, 2025, 09:04:04 amIt doesn't make much difference for the government and secret service but it has a lot of effect inshopping centers and airports where they follow your movements by using bluetooth/wifi beaconsand mac-addresses.Many Wi-Fi vendors offer optional location-based services (LBS). Since most places areinstalling Wi-Fi anyway, it’s an attractive add-on option. LBS uses triangulation, MAC addresses,signal strength and other methods to pinpoint a device’s location.This approach doesn’t necessarily require user consent. Any Wi-Fi device will scan for networks,and that alone reveals some information.https://www.networkworld.com/article/963959/3-ways-to-track-people-using-location-based-services.html

author: exe
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 09, 2025, 02:13:23 pm
content: How about buying a smartphone that can be flashed lineageos? then just don't install google apps.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 10, 2025, 03:33:51 am
content: Why does it matter whether government organisations can track your location? It's not as if they are sitting there, gathering location information on every single resident, continually, and seeing what time you're going to the shops (in five eyes nations anyway). Seems a bit tinfoil-hatty to me and this is coming from someone who actually used to work in an area of government responsible for telephone interception and gathering of data from telco networks.For regular, non-criminal users, location services actually has benefits, for example Push-MOLI and AML. If you call emergency services and you're unable to provide your location or are otherwise unable to respond, they can still see your location (cell tower location with Push-MOLI) and correlate that with other information (such as the registered address on your service etc...).

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 10, 2025, 03:44:53 am
content: Quote from: ebastler on February 09, 2025, 09:08:09 amIf you buy something obsolete, or with a poor firmware, you may find out it won't work. Phone must not only support LTE, it must support VoLTE, and implementation that actually works with your service provider. That's why internet disappears during a call, unless VoLTE is enabled, phone simply switches to 2G/3G for calls. LTE was initially for data only (VoLTE is a call over internet connection in a nutshell), and many older phones actually cannot make calls in LTE only network despite supporting LTE otherwise.

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2025, 05:58:10 am
content: I believe a lot of countries that are shutting off 3G are still leaving 2G networks up, since a ton of non-phone devices like IoT etc. are 2G only and extremely costly to replace.

author: Buriedcode
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2025, 06:30:31 am
content: I'm not entirely sure such a device exists - one that you have full control over the software and can block any apps connections. Well ok, you can remove permissions, but that often renders apps useless.As has been pointed out, the reason such devices are very rare is because there just isn't much demand. The only ones that spring to mind are burner phones. I think my parents had a motorolla V635 which actually meets all but one of your requirements, and that was over 20 years ago.I'm unsure what reasons you have for such massive restrictions, because it all sounds like you're deliberately trying to make life difficult for yourself. Is this going to be for a doomsday bunker or something?

author: Traceless
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2025, 07:32:20 am
content: Hi Infraviolet,It doesn't check all the boxes but you might want to take a look at thePinePhone/Pinphone pro. Technically it is a smartphone, but one running Linux so you absolutely could set it up to use your own infrastructure. According to the vendor, the PinePhone Pro supports communication overQuoteThe phone features builtin hardware privacy switches for pretty much every module, i.e. modem, WLAN/BT, microphone, headphone and separate switches for front/rear camera. The device should be pretty serviceable,many spare parts areavailable at the manufacturers store. They even provide the schematics for both thePinePhoneand thePinePhone Pro.Cheers Traceless

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2025, 08:01:22 am
content: Quote from: wraper on February 10, 2025, 03:44:53 amValid points -- but I was not suggesting to buy an "obsolete" phone. Just look at the current lineup of dumb phones. E.g. the Nokia/HMD 105, 2023 model, sold here from 23€ incl. VAT. It does 4G of course, and VoLTE too.

author: nali
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2025, 09:28:09 am
content: Last time I heard from an account manager at EE - a few years ago now, mind - 3G data was going to be the first but 2G was wait & see due to the millions of monitoring stations, traffic signals etc etc still using embedded 2G (GPRS). Don't know about voice though.This is this option if you're concerned about privacyhttps://e.foundation/. I was going to give it a go to revamp my old Sony phone but my model wasn't supported so never got to try it.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 10, 2025, 10:32:27 am
content: Quote from: amyk on February 10, 2025, 05:58:10 amI'd say those countries are just delaying the inevitable. 2G died in Australia a long time ago and 3G is gone now as of last year.I'm yet to see a surge of any issues. Any alarms that went into "failure" mode last year, certainly would have got the attention of the building owners by now, if they ignored the warnings and continued messaging for years prior. You really had to be in a coma or living under a rock not to do anything about it.I work in a building built in the 1970's, which is due for demolition later this year, and even that is fully operational, including lift phones and central fire monitoring. There's no excuse really.

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2025, 11:57:37 am
content: Quote from: amyk on February 10, 2025, 05:58:10 amhttps://eu.korewireless.com/2g-3g-network-sunset-datesOver here G3 (UMTS) is already shut down (in 2021) and G2 (GSM) will follow roughly around 2030. Deutsche Telekom announced their G2 sunset for summer 2028.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2025, 01:02:55 pm
content: Quote from: Halcyon on February 10, 2025, 10:32:27 amSome companies will make significant money from dropping 2G/3G.Some companies and individuals will be put to significant expense ameliorating that.Q1: Who should pay?Q2: What should happen in the cases where thereis noworkaround?In the UK that's been a problem with dropping the POTS and moving to VOIP. There are significant numbers of people with telecare and alarm equipment, which doesn't work with VOIP. Doubly so if there is a powercut, since the router only stays up for an hour - if you have been able to get one with a battery backup. Triply so in the 4G notspots, so you can't even fallback on cellphone.Similar in the UK when the cellphone companies took over the 800MHz band, and caused interference to existing TV services. In the worst cases where there was no workaround, they paid people £10k and told them to eff off. Naturally their house became very difficult to sell, even at a hefty loss.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 10, 2025, 01:10:57 pm
content: Quote from: ebastler on February 10, 2025, 08:01:22 amHMD website and GSM arena say it's 2G only.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2025, 02:23:58 pm
content: On the mass storage device: whilst this used to be how Android did it, the method was deprecated in favour of doing it via MTP. The issue with appearing as a block device is you can only have exclusive access to that storage, so you need to unmount and unlink all files from that filesystem to make it user accessible. Otherwise, you could corrupt files that are already open because the OS wouldn't be immediately aware of what blocks you are altering and how those refer to files on the drive (it would be like a reverse filesystem, trying to reverse-construct what you had done to the files on the disk). Practically, this means you can never put apps or app data on that partition if you want raw block device support. Therefore, even the most basic Android phone will use MTP to do this, which is a bit like an NFS file system, with the phone as a 'server' providing access to files. MTP is well supported in Linux (libmtp) and Windows and the standard is open (USB-IF). But, it requires the OS and user to be comfortable with virtual filesystems... it won't necessarily appear as a /mnt/myphone directory for instance, though there are ways around that.Not sure why you'd insist on having a real SIM card slot. eSIM is more secure. Your phone's "identity" can't be stolen if the SIM is taken for instance. And you can have an unlimited number of eSIM's on most phones now. The basic implementation is very much similar but the registration of eSIM can be done via a download or QR code. Physical SIMs are likely going to disappear in the 5-10 years.I very much doubt you will find any dumb phone made today that has 5G support, but 4G is enough for most areas, and won't get switched off any time soon.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 10, 2025, 02:29:45 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on February 10, 2025, 02:23:58 pmIt what eSIM is more secure that a regular sim with a pin code? If anything, it's easier to sim swap it online, fraudster does not even need to be present in your country to attach it to a different phone.

author: Zucca
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 10, 2025, 02:30:50 pm
content: Quote from: Infraviolet on February 08, 2025, 03:06:37 pmhttps://grapheneos.org/

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2025, 02:37:14 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on February 10, 2025, 01:10:57 pmHmm -- they have confusing model names at HMD. There's one flavor which is sometimes advertised as "Nokia 105 2G", and another "Nokia 105 4G". I was assuming that the latter is the newer 2023 version, but maybe they both coexist?Anyway, models explicitly designated as "105 4G" are sold for 29€ here; so the 23€ offers might indeed be 2G only. Doesn't really change my recommendation to just buy that 4G model and use it until 5G really becomes a necessity (or it falls apart...).

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2025, 03:21:11 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on February 10, 2025, 02:29:45 pmBecause if your phone is physically stolen you can just take the SIM card out and now you get 2FA SMS for bank account etc. Whereas eSIM needs the phone to be unlocked to do a transfer. If you block notifications from your lock screen (EVERYONE should do this!) then you cannot get any 2FA info from a locked phone.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 10, 2025, 03:34:26 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on February 10, 2025, 03:21:11 pmMore like take the SIM out and throw it into a trash can because it's useless, unless pin code was disabled.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2025, 03:34:55 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on February 10, 2025, 03:31:46 pmTrue, I forgot about PIN code for the SIM. I don't think I've ever seen anyone use one! but as long as it is supported, it should be equally secure as eSIM.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 10, 2025, 03:42:46 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on February 10, 2025, 03:34:55 pmDunno about UK, but where I live all SIM cards come with random pin code enabled by default.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2025, 03:54:02 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on February 10, 2025, 03:42:46 pmDefinitely not standard here, I had to Google how you set up one on an iPhone. It is possible, but it is buried away in a settings menu somewhere. There have been a number of cases in the news of identity theft being used to obtain a new SIM under someone's identity, then intercept 2FA SMS. Another reason we should bin 2FA SMS, but it's better than 1FA no-SMS... So it's probably sticking around for some time.

author: rteodor
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2025, 03:54:55 pm
content: Quote from: Infraviolet on February 08, 2025, 03:06:37 pm5G is just 4G with bells and whistles that a regular user does not usually need (micro networks, low power/datarate industrial sensors, low/guaranteed latency for robotics, traffic lights, etc.). 5G was marketed to regular users (that would have almost no direct use of it) to drive down costs by mass adoption. Yet 5G is power hungry, costly and its primary promise for regular users - speed on 60GHz band - failed (Asianometry has a clip dedicated to this subject). If Apple delaying [later edit: its own roll-out of] 5G doesn't tell anything then what else does ?For the reasons above I would say: expect 4G to be available well beyond the middle of the current century.

author: exe
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 10, 2025, 08:15:46 pm
content: Quote from: rteodor on February 10, 2025, 03:54:55 pmMay be they want to sell more phones

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 10, 2025, 09:31:35 pm
content: Quote from: exe on February 10, 2025, 08:15:46 pmApple is delaying their own modem, not 5G

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 10, 2025, 09:34:52 pm
content: Quote from: rteodor on February 10, 2025, 03:54:55 pm5G offers a lot more bandwidth for same amount of frequency spectrum. Also while it's more power hungry overall, it takes less power per bandwidth.

author: benseno
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2025, 10:08:10 pm
content: More bandwidth is just one of the advantages of 5G vs 4G. Others are low latency and user density per base station allowing massive usage of iot and remote control applications. 4th industrial revolution needs it

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2025, 10:32:36 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on February 10, 2025, 09:31:35 pmThey are delaying development of mmWave functionality in that modem, and have so far only kept it to flagship iPhone in the USA. No mmWave in the rest of the world, and mmWave is now gone from the iPad. It sounds like they don't have that much faith, but they aren't entirely giving up on it just yet.

author: benseno
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2025, 10:48:31 pm
content: Who will need mm wave transceiver radiating close to the head? People buying Apple phones are not so stupid.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 10, 2025, 10:56:49 pm
content: Quote from: benseno on February 10, 2025, 10:48:31 pmWhat you said is rather dumb, the higher frequency, the lower penetration depth. mmWave will barely touch the skin surface.

author: aeg
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2025, 11:36:35 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on February 10, 2025, 01:10:57 pmThe Nokia 105 (2023) is 2G only. The Nokia 105 4G (2023) is 4G.https://www.hmd.com/en_int/nokia-105/specs?sku=1GF019CPA2L05https://www.hmd.com/en_int/nokia-105-4g/specs?sku=1GF018TPA1H01

author: benseno
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2025, 11:48:39 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on February 10, 2025, 10:56:49 pmUV is even shorted than that and still creates a problem.BTW, there is no study on mm wave on human done yet.What we have right now is a report from NTP study on 900MHz (despite numerous others which were dismissed) stating thathttps://ntp.niehs.nih.gov/whatwestudy/topics/cellphonesClear evidence of an association with tumors in the hearts of male rats. The tumors were malignant schwannomas.Some evidence of an association with tumors in the brains of male rats. The tumors were malignant gliomas.Some evidence of an association with tumors in the adrenal glands of male rats. The tumors were benign, malignant, or complexI recall usual industry reaction to cell phone cancer claim was going SAR wave and penetration.We are living in a free world, and everyone believing in penetration and SAR things can use mm wave for sure.I prefer to be dumb.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 10, 2025, 11:52:30 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on February 10, 2025, 01:02:55 pmWho should pay? The owner of the equipment, in almost all cases. It's really no different to upgrading to any other new technologies over the decades. Devices are going to become obsolete and stop working, such is life.In what situation is there no workaround from the transition from 2G/3G to 4G/5G?Getting rid of POTS, once again, is an issue that had already been addressed in other parts of the world, Australia is an example of that. POTS basically doesn't exist anymore, yet there are modern solutions for those who insist on using legacy equipment. Even in edge cases where mobile coverage is unavailable, there are emerging solutions, for example, Telstra is rolling out "direct to handset" to its existing customers that allows SMS messages to be sent, from their existing handsets, via Starlink satellite, when normal network coverage is unavailable. This will eventually be expanded to include voice and data services. No special phone or equipment required.

author: benseno
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 11, 2025, 12:01:00 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on February 10, 2025, 11:52:30 pmStill it is POTS alike through FTTH or cellular.BTW, cellular networks are not dimensioned to withstand high call attempt rate, and it takes a major emergency event to understand the value of POTS system when everything mobile will be overloaded and out of reach.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 11, 2025, 12:02:15 am
content: Quote from: aeg on February 10, 2025, 11:36:35 pmI've seen reviews saying that build quality is much lower than what Nokia used to do. But hey, for this price that's pretty amazing.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 11, 2025, 12:54:31 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on February 10, 2025, 11:52:30 pmIf a company removes a legally mandated and/or life critical service to increase their profits, the company should pay restore service to those affected.I'm not sure of all the details about the 2G/3G/4G/5G/6G equipment because it doesn't affect me any more.There have been major problems with smart electricity and gas meters, and I believe more are coming in 6 months. I don't have them, so I don't pay any attention.Even in a affluent part of a major city, there was 2G in my mother's house, but 3G only reached *part* of it. Sold that houseWhich bits of the POTS/VoIP have been addressed elsewhere?POTS equipment is powered from the exchanges, which have large batteries/gennies, so they continue to work during long power cuts. VoIP equipment fails. Last time I looked you couldn't get the (1hour!) battery backed VoIP modems. Hence in an emergency you are stuffed.No, there isn't cellphone available everywhere.I'll believe the indoor cellphone to satellite solution when it has been shown to work. Be aware that UK houses tend to have several stories with thick walls, unlike the Antipodean countries I believe.

author: Njk
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 11, 2025, 01:11:28 am
content: Quote from: benseno on February 11, 2025, 12:01:00 amPublic POTS was not designed for high attempt rate either. POTS is not superior to a wireless system in that regard

author: benseno
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 11, 2025, 01:42:45 am
content: Quote from: Njk on February 11, 2025, 01:11:28 amFrom switching side (old design) - it could be true. From accessibility point of view - no.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 11, 2025, 04:02:50 am
content: Quote from: benseno on February 11, 2025, 12:01:00 amThat depends on where you live, what network you're connected to, and how willing the companies/governments are invested into developing the infrastructure.If I can stream a YouTube video on my phone, at the stroke of midnight on New Year's Day, in the middle of the Sydney CBD with millions upon millions of revellers enjoying the celebrations, then what are the other carriers doing wrong around the world?

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 11, 2025, 04:06:35 am
content: Quote from: tggzzz on February 11, 2025, 12:54:31 amI'll counter that argument with a situation that occurred just last week in my area. A summer storm came through and fried the modems and copper lines for most of my street and surrounding areas. That rendered any services on those lines entirely useless.What continued to work were those like myself, on fibre, and the 5G networks.This isn't just a freak occurrence either. It usually happens several times each summer. You might be lucky and get a replacement modem/line technician out within a few days, otherwise, customers have been waiting weeks for entire 100-pair cables to be replaced.It just sounds to me that the UK have a lot of catching up to do, if you can't get a basic cellular service inside a typical home.

author: benseno
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 11, 2025, 07:03:46 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on February 11, 2025, 04:02:50 amIt should be easy when international IP carrier cable and Alphabet servers are within reach of the hand.Carriers are counting their money amid decline in the revenue started around 200x after IT tech entered the telco business and do things based on the forecasting.World is not equal, indeed.

author: rteodor
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 11, 2025, 07:53:21 am
content: Quote from: benseno on February 10, 2025, 11:48:39 pmFor UV there is this fundamental difference called ionization. One its to jiggle proteins more by heat, another is to break them apart into reactive ions that would bond with who knows what else. Heat can break proteins too, but much less as the body can take a lot more heat on a sunny beach than from a phone.I would relay a bit more on common sense than on many of those studies, as for example they can be a fraud (like the about 600 of them done on amyloidsThe Devastating Legacy of Lies in Alzheimer’s Science.).

author: benseno
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 11, 2025, 08:49:28 am
content: Quote from: rteodor on February 11, 2025, 07:53:21 amIf US National Toxicology Program isn't credible reference/source for you then what else can be presented without being rejected?Regarding RF impact - there is a cell membrane oscillation effect under impact of RF em waves.https://colab.ws/articles/10.1021%2Facs.langmuir.2c03181It is not a thermal effect but more on a macro-molecular level if i understand it correctly.If industry wishes to be transparent and honest - companies it's represented by can establish independent body in collaboration with authorities and civil organizations and test those 60GHz in vivo at least on mice/pigs for a long enough time before promoting it to the people.... seems there won't be shortage of volunteers for on human tests

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 11, 2025, 11:21:07 am
content: Quote from: benseno on February 11, 2025, 12:01:00 amA classic POTS central office has a bank of batteries (possibly also a diesel generator) which keeps landline telephones running for quite a while in case of a power outage. A base station for mobile phones usually has batteries for just a few hours. And with DSL or FTTH, i.e. VoIP, you're out of luck in many cases. Not many telcos deploy power backup for DSLAMs and OLTs. Also you would need a UPS for your stuff (some telcos install ONTs with an optional battery pack).

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 11, 2025, 11:31:18 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on February 11, 2025, 04:06:35 amNot all homes are "typical" (doh!)Some are remote and in valleys.Some have very thick walls; my mother's was one of those, being 3ft thick in the kitchen and 0.5ft thick on the top floor.Lightning strikes aren't much of a problem here. It sounds to me that Australia has a lot of catching up to do if it is a problem. Here I'd be more concerned that my village's power is distributed by four wires on poles; common at the bottom. My phase is next to that, with two phases higher up; maybe that might help a little.

author: Njk
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 11, 2025, 02:46:31 pm
content: Quote from: benseno on February 11, 2025, 08:49:28 amHmm... Perhaps we shall start thinking about how to prevent the boy scouts from gathering around a campfire, for the sake of children's health. The fire emits a lot of IR radiation which is more harmful than microwave because of higher frequency

author: Njk
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 11, 2025, 03:19:45 pm
content: Back on topic. About 2G, 3G, etc. The 3GPP documents are in public access. One can download all that stuff and study it for the rest of his life ("There is NO excuse for being uneducated"). But it's quick to discover that the "G" by the definition, is intentionally abstracted from the radio access technology. All that matters is the user's data rates. So it's possible for an advanced UTRA phone to be of higher G number than a basic E-UTRA phone. The PR folks are used to enjoy the freedom of speech but the engineers are usually pickier in using the terms

author: Infraviolet
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 11, 2025, 08:00:43 pm
content: Does anyone know if the Nokia 2660 Flip is a real dumb-phone, or if it is one of those smart-phones-in-disguise that aeg warned of in Reply #5?ThanksEDIT: just to add some notes to my situation, having a battery life of a week or more between recharges (atleast for weeks when one has had few phone calls) is attractive, no smart phone will do that and I guess a disguised smart phone pretending to be dumb won't either. I do have privacy concerns about smart phones, but perhaps more than privacy directly my concern is about paying money to "own" a device that can be updated by its manufacturer and otherwise CHANGED from how it was when you first set it up, without your consent. For all my computers I run Linux, which puts me comfortably in control of them, for small consumer devices like mp3 players or cameras I don't have proper root control or anything like that, but then these are devices which just work the same for as long as they last (and maybe longer if whatever fails first is practical to bodge a fix for). With a basic dumb phone it's in that cheap-consumer-device category of things you don't have full control over, but where you don't need it as such because the thing just does a simple job and can't be changed by third parties either. A computer sits in the category of things you can have full control over, with the exception of concerning blobs like Intel's management engine, less of a concern on older hardware, because full control is indeed needed for operation. A Smartphone sits in the very nasty intersection of being something with enough capabilities that full control is possible, but being under the control not of the owner but of Google/Apple/firmware-from-the-network-carrier. I have wondered about buying something for which GrapheneOS or LineageOS (I understand both are open source systems that give a user full root control of everything) is compatibility guaranteed, but my desire is really for something which fits that works-the-same-way-forever simple device category, not something comparable to a computer. I like having a phone that needs very infrequent charging, and which doesn't constantly clamour for one's attention the way a smartphone does.Thanks

author: benseno
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 11, 2025, 08:28:09 pm
content: Quote from: Njk on February 11, 2025, 02:46:31 pmYour boy, your decision.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 11, 2025, 08:42:23 pm
content: Quote from: Infraviolet on February 11, 2025, 08:00:43 pmFrom my past experience working at Nokia authorized service, flip phone is a bad idea. Them basically disappearing from the market was a good riddance. Unlike most of laptops, they usually used FPC in the hinge which was extremely unreliable. Wire harness was reliable but it was almost never used, most likely due to the cost and size.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 11, 2025, 09:19:00 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on February 11, 2025, 08:42:23 pmFlip phones are a very good idea.I put mine in my pocket with my keys and wallet, and it always emerges in one piece without screen cracks.It is robust; I've dropped mine off a roof (i.e.8m) onto concrete, with zero damage.Smartphones... Not so much.

author: nali
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 11, 2025, 10:02:37 pm
content: Quote from: Infraviolet on February 11, 2025, 08:00:43 pmJust my personal experience after buying a HMD Nokia for my wife - I vowed never to touch one of their phones again. Product was cheap plastic feel, support was utter shite. After some weeks of crashing and getting nowhere with support it got returned to the retailer as "unfit for purpose" and we bought a Samsung.

author: Njk
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 11, 2025, 11:40:21 pm
content: This is my old Norman phone. From the first batch that was primarily for distribution to the employees. On last summer, I'd lost it but noticed that quickly enough to get back and found it laying on the tarmac. It seems a truck was driven over it at least once (it was at the cargo terminal where the traffic is quite high). So it lost some market value but that does not prevent me from continuing to use it, because it still works. Also have a flip phone that looks like new but does not work because the flex cable is broken.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 12, 2025, 01:37:16 am
content: Quote from: tggzzz on February 11, 2025, 11:31:18 amThat's part of the reason why Australia is increasingly expanding 5G services and dumping the old copper network in favour of fibre. Most homes and businesses will be able to connect to fibre by 2030, even in regional areas. It's not purely about speed and capacity, but the cost of installation and maintenance, and overall resilience of the network.The POTS network is dead in the water and is old-school, so much so that the current generation of kids growing up probably don't know what a dial tone is, until they start getting professional experience and begin using VoIP phones.Extended power outages are rare, but even with rare events (usually after very severe storms or bushfires), fibre networks and cellular networks are designed to keep operating. Even then, users who have specific medical conditions or reliance on mains power will get priority, even if it means connecting a generator to power their home.I just don't see the reasons to maintain an archaic, corroding, old network in place. The positives for upgrading far outweigh any negatives. No one has died or have been "forgotten about" stuck in a lift somewhere, just because the networks were upgraded. It's no different to when Telex was dumped, or people moved away from fax machines, AMPS, analog television, T1, ISDN and ADSL were all discontinued.I'd suggest the number of cases where there is simply no replacement solution is probably close to zero, if not zero. You can't sit here and tell me the technology doesn't exist to replace a copper pair in those odd cases. The other thing is, access to the internet is increasingly being viewed by countries as a fundamental human right, not just a utility.At some point we just have to replace obsolete technologies, rather than hanging onto it for dear life "just because" some people are resistant to change.

author: nali
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 12, 2025, 09:19:13 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on February 12, 2025, 01:37:16 amPOTS is being phased out round here now. There are objections of course for reasons including i) there are areas where the demographic is quite elderly so POTS is all they know ii) It's hilly so mobile coverage is patchy and iii) It's windy on the Atlantic coast with power often delivered by overhead cable like tgzzz's so power outages do happen relatively more frequently.https://www.openreach.com/news-and-opinion/2023/openreach-change-telephone-networkQuote

author: bookaboo
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 12, 2025, 03:13:10 pm
content: In the UK and Ireland 2G switch off has been delayed since there's a large amount of public and private IoT depending on it. The operators would love nothing better than to turn off 2G and free up bandwidth.... not to mention not having to pay Nokia and Eriksson to service EOL base station equipment (that's direct from IoT technical team of one of the largest operators in Ireland)Not sure how the rest of the world dealt with that issue, but for now 2G on British Isles is here a few years yet. The LTE NB-IoT and CAT-M networks are fully rolled out, so I expect the pressure on 2G to build and a "sunset" date to be announced soon, but that date will be in the order of years, they wont yank the plug.That Nokia 105 4G is a nice solution though.

author: Njk
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 12, 2025, 04:42:12 pm
content: BTW, in the beginning of the LTE rollout, there was a period, over some years, where a phone uses IP connection only on a data call and had to fallback to circuit switching for every voice call. A voice protocols such as volte, volga, etc. were under discussion. No one cared about that much because the whole point was a data, not voice. Perhaps some of that early LTE phones are still in the wild.

author: Njk
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 12, 2025, 05:41:15 pm
content: Quote from: Halcyon on February 12, 2025, 01:37:16 amWhen I was a kid, I had absolutely no problems from the absence of smartphones, internet, and stuff like that. Moreover, we had only cold water plumbing so it was necessary to heat water on the cooker for every act of dishwashing. And to take a bath or shower I'd to go to the nearby fish store yard and collect there some wooden planks form a discarded transport boxes to fire them in the boiler. That all was just a minor inevitable inconvenience, which was sensed as such only because I knew about the examples of something better. But again, not a problem. The real problem was to find where's to apply myself in order to get some benefits. That's what drives the technology development, not the necessity. If a thing can be done in a simple way and one pushes for doing the same thing in a complex way, then he definitely has the agenda. It's like providing the kids with alcohol and drugs. Of course it's a very profitable business. Not sure about all other aspects of this.

author: benseno
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 12, 2025, 06:31:44 pm
content: Quote from: Njk on February 12, 2025, 04:42:12 pmFallback feature is still available and considered as valid within active/existing design.

author: benseno
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 12, 2025, 06:42:23 pm
content: BTW, is smartphone addiction already appeared in the list of mental disorders?It is funny to watch young people in the airplane before take off scrolling through ins/x/fb pages and betting when their finger moves are synchronized.

author: Njk
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 12, 2025, 07:10:47 pm
content: Quote from: benseno on February 12, 2025, 06:31:44 pmSure. The phone can transition between LTE and CS at any time in-call. The fallback feature is specified but the transition from a CS network back to LTE requires a cooperation from the CS network, that's not always the case. Anyway I'd neither implemented nor tested that transition because that was not required.

author: benseno
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 12, 2025, 07:28:19 pm
content: Quote from: Njk on February 12, 2025, 07:10:47 pmYes, the fallback feature must be implemented on the network nodes through configuration/licenses and scenarios are listed in the network design (if sales agreement between telco vendor and carrier explicitly includes this feature).

author: aeg
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 13, 2025, 04:39:49 am
content: Quote from: Infraviolet on February 11, 2025, 08:00:43 pmHMD website says "Operating System: S30+" which is their name for MOCOR ThreadX. So yes, it's a real dumb-phone.

author: Infraviolet
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2025, 05:17:42 pm
content: So pretty much anything HMD/Nokia makes is a true dumbphone? Or are there some products of theirs to avoid because they're disguised smartphones?Also, to understand a bit more about VoLTE: So once 3G is gone then phone calls, actual calls rather than use of data-type bandwidth to make audio connections via internet services, are reliant on having VoLTE as well as 4G? And this has something to do with carrier specific firmware? Surely there is something here to make compatibility more reliable though?? Having a system where only phones with carrier specific firmware (and I assume that means firmware in the phone, not firmware that is inside a physical SIM and therefore naturally comes from the network carrier) can make use of voice calling seems awfully non-standardised a thing? In the modern era one would expect any phone, bought from anywhere, should surely work with any UK carrier so long as you get the physical SIM from that carrier? Especially in an era when smartphones can often cost >£500, and plenty of buyers get them as standalone purchaes not as part of a network-company contract, so nobody is going to want to find themselves unable to use the phone they bought if they switch network provider. If some sort of special firmware, carrier specific firmware, is needed for VoLTE then is there a readily available way to find that firmware and somehow flash it to the right bit of a phone???Also, 4G as a label, and 5G for that matter, is as several here have said, more a marketing term than the name of an actual standard. And phone's own manuals often don't mention it, even if the overall product description of a phone does. So are there multiple different forms of 4G which aren't all necessarily compatible once 3G goes off? Does this mean there are other particular standards I need to check a phone supports so that I'll know it will work after the switch-off?Thanks

author: aeg
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 21, 2025, 07:07:21 am
content: Quote from: Infraviolet on February 19, 2025, 05:17:42 pmDepends on region. In the US market, they have ONE true dumbphone model and 9 Android or KaiOS models. In the UK market, they have numerous dumbphones (105 4G, 110 4G, 3210, 235, etc) but also some disguised smartphones (6300 4G, 2720 Flip, etc).Example:https://www.hmd.com/en_gb/nokia-110-4g-2nd-edition/specs?sku=1GF032BPE1G01- scroll down to Operating System - S30+ is true dumbphonehttps://www.hmd.com/en_gb/nokia-6300-4g/specs?sku=16LIOB01A12- scroll down to Operating System - KaiOS is disguised smartphoneQuote from: Infraviolet on February 19, 2025, 05:17:42 pm4G has only packet switching in the core network. If a phone doesn't have VoLTE, then it needs CSFB for voice calling. When 3G infrastructure goes away, CSFB goes away too.Quote from: Infraviolet on February 19, 2025, 05:17:42 pmIf a phone has VoLTE and UK frequency bands then you should be fine.

author: Njk
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 21, 2025, 01:48:29 pm
content: Quote from: Infraviolet on February 19, 2025, 05:17:42 pmBasically, you can't do that. If the manufacturer did not implement the specific voip support in a phone, you can't use that phone for voice calls when all CS networks in your area are shut down. The best thing you can do is to sell that phone before

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2025, 04:18:40 am
content: I cannot do full review, but my newer 'JitterBug' has the non-smart FLIP.No internet web access, but it also skips doing any of the crazy-making text auto-complete..my greatest hate, literally !It does have the wifi and other features you wish to avoid. But as to any spying there is also your carrier to consider.Being 'of cultural diversity', as a giant LPot-Head, I found out that NetTen monitors every bit of text msg. So there is that.(Net ten felt obligated to cancel or ban my phone service!Uugghh, that sounds like facism.Currently not on NetTen, I use ATT for prepaid.

author: Sassy Taste
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2025, 07:46:51 pm
content: SE version. 3G. I cannot tell between 2G to 5G. iPhone. So I wouldn't know what to look for to these changes. But if you want to get really technical, I brought my iPhone into the tech clerk because the security pass code didn't pass it. It turns out she cleared it from her iPad at the cellphone company. Networking then. To me that job is not needed. But still needed. It's a job. Maybe that is the difference.