Agilent ESA E4401B Memory (B72) and Firmware upgrade - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / repair

author: Nitrousoxide
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 30, 2019, 03:39:16 am
content: Hi all,I recently acquired an old E4401B. It is a fairly old model as it has an earlier serial number (less than 4144), and thus does not come with the expanded memory upgrade. I would like to install this as it allows the latest firmware to run on the device and allows for features such as 1 Hz RBW (It also has the high accuracy source upgrade, however, they only added 1 and 3 Hz RBW in a later firmware upgrade).My attempts so far have been somewhat successful. There are two components to upgrade, the DRAM SIMM and the flash SIMM. The DRAM simm was trivial as any old stick that has comparable timings would work (and in fact did so), the devices detects that it now has 32 MB of RAM.The flash SIMM was not as trivial. I had managed to source some identical chips off ebay from China (they are obsolete, that was the only source I could find). Another source on the internet stated that the last two jumpers (out of the four) on the flash SIMM should be opened, whilst the top two should be shorted.Before attempting that, I wanted to check if the device could boot into the firmware updater. Alas, it could not. This is where my problem is.I followed the instructions given by the firmware update guide. I tried formatting the disks both from windows and from the spectrum analyser, and then dropping the files onto the floppy. But once I insert the disk and reboot (as said by the service guide), it just boots straight into the operating system.The spectrum analyser is running possibly the earliest firmware version of A.01.03Does anyone have any tips, suggestions or experience?EDIT:When I insert the firmware update disc, I can hear the floppy drive seek twice and then it seems to just give up.The machine just hangs on a white screen afterwards.EDIT 2:I tried formatting the floppy disk in the ESA, then proceeded to copy the bootloader onto the disk in linux. The machine attempts to boot from the floppy disk, It seeks a few times and then loads. However, the screen remains white and the machine sits in a locked up state.

author: Nitrousoxide
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 11, 2019, 04:18:28 am
content: Update:I assumed that the internal battery being dead may cause operational issues. So I ordered a replacement from Arrow (reputable source) replaced it with the higher mAh version in hopes of prolonging the need to replace the battery again.However, it seems to be even worse now. Before the time would be held since the last power-up, i.e. It was set to 10th of January, but the time would only increment once the device was on, but it would still maintain the time. Now, when I enter the correct time and power cycle the machine, the date resets to some bogus value. (i.e. Date feild just has 122, 44 instead of 11th, Feb 2019)Also, of note, is that every time it boots I receive a "Copywright Hewlett- Packard Company 1999". I assume this is standard in earlier firmware versions before boot screens.I feel like a better place to ask this would be the keysight forum.. if it wasnt for their god awful user interface....Any ideas why the memory seems to be not holding values? Should I just contact their official support?

author: Ordinaryman1971
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 14, 2019, 03:07:22 pm
content: So, the battery you've replaced is the Yellow TimeKeeper battery that's in the socket on the board?Do you still have the old one, did you measure the voltage on it, is it still acceptable or it's dead?How did you replace the battery, did you take the board out to do it? I don't remember if it's possible to replace it when it's in the chassis.Sorry for asking trivial questions, I really apologize but I just don't know your setup.Do you have ESD protection in place, everything nicely grounded?

author: Nitrousoxide
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2019, 04:04:08 am
content: Quote from: Ordinaryman1971 on February 14, 2019, 03:07:22 pmYes, I made sure to get the exact same timekeeper snaphat. Only difference is that it is a higher capacity.I have the old one, measured the voltage. It was way below acceptable, around 300 mV.I replaced the battery step by step as per the service guide. Removed the support bar, unplugged the front panel cable and then lifted the board out. When removing the snaphat, I used an IC extractor tool, pulled the thing off in one go.Yes, I had ESD protection. I was grounded.No need to apologize, any feedback at this point is excellent as I am stuck against a brick wall

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 14, 2021, 01:22:12 pm
content: Quote from: Nitrousoxide on January 30, 2019, 03:39:16 amHi. I found the solution for this as I was trying to do the same thing. I'll go ahead and post it here so as to help it be more available to others. It turned out to be quite a rabbit hole! I will PM you to let you know about this.Quote from: xrunner on May 13, 2021, 11:01:28 am

author: Nitrousoxide
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 15, 2021, 05:24:52 pm
content: Thanks to xrunner, I have made some significant progress (all be it 2 years later).Copying his instructions (almost verbatim). I got the firmware loader to work. The only difference is that when copying the files on to the local storage, I had to rename it as a .csv rather than a .txt file.Revisiting the storage and memory situation- I had soldered on two extra NV memory chips bought from Aliexpress, hopefully, they're not full of sand and are functional (well... hopefully they are full of sand... technically...).Apparently, I had bought a 32MB RAM stick before, but it wasn't in the machine so the only logical explanation is that it evaporated and I will have to get another 32 MB stick.Now, herein lies the final hurdle. The non volatile SIMM stick has 4 jumpers to indicate the capacity (I assume they aren't the same as EDO ident). So the question remains, how to configure them. I found this on another forum and will attempt to this when the rest of the components arrive:I restored the flash chips to their original locations, and confirmedthat everything was working as before. Then I ran the flash erasewith several of the other jumper configurations. After finding thecorrect jumper configuration, it allowed me to install the latestfirmware, and everything appears to me working well.If anyone else wants to try this, you need to have both the jumpersclosest to the SIMM's edge connector open, and the other two shorted.You will have to run the secure flash erase to reformat the SIMM (hold"view/trace", "ESC", and "return" while turning on the analyzer. Thescreen will be blank, but you can tell it's working by checking forthe Vpp voltage of one of the chips. Give it about 10 minutes, andthen pull the plug to turn it off. After erasing the flash, it won'twork until you install the firmware.Now, the real challenge is if I have the guts to wipe the firmware. I had previously contacted Keysight support (about a year ago) about this and the response I got was, effectively, a very polite middle finger: "No, it's broken (the motherboard), we won't help you, but our new stuff, bye." (paraphrased).

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 15, 2021, 09:48:00 pm
content: Agilent E4411B flash memory secure erase and restore firmwareQuote from: Nitrousoxide on May 15, 2021, 05:24:52 pmSo we can both feel cozy about it (this is going to have to be done anyway when I install the two flash chips) better see how it goes now and know it will work, rather than wonder if this or something else is wrong later - I'll take one for the team.Let's do this ...I powered on the unit with ESC & VIEW/TRACE buttons held down and it went into flash erase mode. Absolutely no indication of progress or completion - just a white screen. Service manual sez "wait approximately 10 minutes ...".I decided to wait a bit longer ~ 12 minutes. I powered it off, then on, and nothing but a white screen. Yep definitely nuked, but that is expected. Inserted ESALOADR floppy and re-cycle pwr again, and sure enough it automatically starts the firmware loading program. That fail safe ability resides in another chip on the main board. Firmware re-loaded and back up and running like nothing happened.Now that wasn't so scary was it?Well OK just a little bit.

author: Ordinaryman1971
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 15, 2021, 11:05:01 pm
content: Very cool.

author: Nitrousoxide
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 16, 2021, 04:10:31 am
content: Quote from: xrunner on May 15, 2021, 09:48:00 pmQuestion:You had to reformat the ESALOADR drive on the SA. For the floppy's that contain the firmware, did you have to follow the same procedure for each disc? Or could you just format them as FAT on windows for them to work?

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 16, 2021, 11:29:03 am
content: Quote from: Nitrousoxide on May 16, 2021, 04:10:31 amI formatted all the disks on the SA. The only file I had to havewrittenby the SA was the ESALOADR. All the others had the files written to them from the PC on the PC's USB connected floppy drive (Win 10).It's possible that the floppy disks other than the one having ESALOADR on it could have been formatted by the PC, I just did them all on the SA to be sure. But if there is a mysterious reason they have to be formatted on the SA, and you formatted them on the PC, you wouldn't be able to re-format on the SA if you are trying to load firmware AND you have nuked the system. At that point you can't get back into it to get to the format menu. That would be a bad day.After I get the system upgraded with all the memory and latest firmware, I might try another experiment. I'll format all the disks other than the one that holds ESALOADR on the PC and see if the SA will load the firmware from them. I would keep the disk with ESALOADR (once it works) in a safe place and don't muck with it ever again.I should have the stick of 32 MB ram in the mail Monday. I'll install it and see if it's recognized. Even though it won't do much at this point until I get the flash upgraded, it's one more step completed.

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 17, 2021, 11:47:42 am
content: I got a minor issue fixed with this testing.Several years ago I was saving some state files for fast instrument configuration. Since the file naming menu had the options for both upper case and lower case letters ... well why not use them all? Well, later I found out the file deletion won't delete any files created with lower case letters.Since the flash erase nuked all those files, they are gone now.Looks like it was fixed in this revision under "Defects Repaired" -A.08.02...Prevented the File Rename operation from creating filenames which could not be loaded or deleted (previously it permitted lower case characters)...So this should be covered when I get the last available firmware loaded, provided all the memory upgrades work. It will prevent you from creating file names that can't be deleted from the file menu.

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 17, 2021, 09:59:56 pm
content: Couple of things showed up today for this project.The flash memory board, besides needing the two additional flash chips, will need the missing decoupling capacitors installed. Four more for each chip (0805 size). I can do that now while still waiting for the chips to arrive.When I got this unit in 2016 I replaced the Timekeeper battery. It contains a 3V backup battery and common 32.768 kHz crystal for time. Figured might as well replace it while doing all this other stuff.

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 19, 2021, 10:50:03 am
content: Replaced Timekeeper crystal/battery module. Old battery (installed 2016) read 2.8 V - New one 3.4 V.Received the 32 MB SIMM stick (used part). Removed original stick and put new one in. The unit recognized it with no issues (see pics). However, it doesn't enable any further functionality (as far as I know) until the flash is upgraded ... whichthenallows the latest firmware to be installed. That version is A.14.06 1 SEP 2008. That's what we're shooting for.I included pics of the old and new SIMM sticks. Nothing special about them, but if it helps or answers any questions in the years ahead for anyone reading this, so much the better.Tracking on flash memory chips states"May 18, 2021 3:07pm Departed from Origin Country"

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 20, 2021, 07:10:38 pm
content: I had the 0805 decoupling caps so I went ahead and installed them on the board. Eight total - four for each additional flash chip.

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2021, 10:12:35 pm
content: So the flash memory isn't far away, but I felt like playing ...What happens if I try to install the latest firmwarewithoutthe additional flash memory?Since it's going to be nuked again anyway, let's see! I wrote all the floppies and started the ESALOADR utility. Is it going to check if I have the B72 memory option when checking disk one - before starting?Nope.It actually finished the firmware upgrade and asked to be restarted. After it successfully re-started, it automatically asked to have the PowerSuite utilities disks inserted. This is where I suspected it would fail, and it did. But ... the actual system firmware is now A.14.06!Might be interesting for anyone who wants to try this. You can have the latest firmware without the utilities if you desire. The C: drive is also a bit smaller. It only has 1.9 MB free now.Party on ...

author: Nitrousoxide
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2021, 07:11:51 am
content: Quote from: xrunner on May 23, 2021, 10:12:35 pmWait... That's mental. Meaning that even if the flash chips are fake, then the upgrade would still work...Ok, I will attempt the same when the SIMM stick of ram arrives.I guess I owe you a beer

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2021, 11:40:44 am
content: It's funny what you can find out if you just do something. Of course there are risks too. I've had this unit since about 2016 and I just took the word that it couldn't be upgraded without the B72 option. Like I found out, you can't install the Power Suite utilities without additional memory. But the latest base firmware can be installed.This whole thing started for me when I was reviewing the Signal Path's video on fixing an E4407B -https://youtu.be/gb1QMJtwumQI thought I'd delve into it and update my E4411B. After research I learned that there was a version of firmware thatcouldbe installed (A.07.06) without the memory upgrade (according to Agilent). That's when I had to figure out the trick to getting the damn ESALOADR to run ...Anyway, having that in-hand, I didn't have any fear of experimenting because I could get back to the A.07.06 version. So why not try A.14.06 ?Hey wait - I just realized something. Shahriar installed new firmware on his unit in the video from floppies and never said a thing about overcoming any problems running ESALOADR.

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2021, 11:06:29 pm
content: The flash memory chips arrived (Sharp LH28F320SKTD-L70). Might not get to them until the weekend.The jumpers need to be the same as the fully populated example picture. So I'll remove one jumper at the bottom of the four possible positions.

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 29, 2021, 09:30:26 pm
content: I removed the bottom jumper and parked it to the side in preparation for the board upgrade. I soldered on the two new flash devices. I carefully inspected my work and cleaned the board. I installed the board again, and performed the flash erase (power on while holding ESC and VIEW/TRACE). I already had all the floppies ready to go with A.14.06, so proceeded to re-install the firmware. Unfortunately I got the message shown in the pic -"Create a drive with 100 k free to continue"BummerAfter trying several things I decided to re-inspect the flash board. I found what looked like several pins that could have remained unsoldered. Very hard to tell, but after touching them with the iron and re-installing the board, the message went away.The firmware installed and re-booted. The system indicated I indeed now officially had Option B72 memory expansion. It then asked for the personality disks for installation of the Power Suite utilities. But it failed on the second floppy "Failed to write staging file". I turned the unit off then on again and tried it through the system menu with the same result, but it failed at a slightly different point. I could tell this by watching the "Bytes Remaining" counter. I then tried the "Verify Disks" selection, and it also failed to verify. When it fails to verify it does not give the "Failed to write to staging file" error.I then suspected that a floppy was either bad or needed to be re-formatted and re-written. I fully re-formatted all three personality floppies and copied all the files to them again. However, this failed again at a slightly different point. I discarded the three floppies and used three from the firmware set, and again it gave the same error but never at the same point. I also downloaded the package again from Keysight, and re-wrote the floppies and it failed again.OK this is getting really aggravating.I went back and got the Power Suite utilities from the previous firmware A.07.06 which only resides on one floppy instead of three like this latest version. This installed OK. So right now I'm beat down and need to take a break. I have the B72 memory option installed, as shown on the system screen, the latest firmware, and the Power Suite utilities from the previous version. The unit is working fine. I will have to think about why the utilities won't install and see if there is anything else I can try. The error is always "Failed to write to staging file".Nitrousoxide, I'd like to know how this goes for you, if you get to this point.

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2021, 02:07:04 pm
content: Whew - I finally got it all installed.I re-re-inspected the flash board this morning with a clear head and two address lines on U2 were still not soldered.It sure looked like they were but it can be deceiving sometimes. That explains why the installation could not write a file at some point.The first two disks of the three-disk supplemental file set were finally read and installed without a hitch. It skipped the last disk on purpose (as indicated in the display), I assume because it was already installed by the latest firmware.So there you have it. I hope all goes well for you Nitrousoxide, and I hope this all will help someone else in the future.

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 31, 2021, 01:23:45 pm
content: One final experiment that I wanted to do. I wondered if after all the upgrading whether the first floppy with the firmware loading program (ESALOADR) would now work straight off the drive, instead of having to run through all the hoops to get it to load (if you missed all that hoop-la go back in the thread ...).I re-formatted a floppy and loaded ESALOADR on it from the PC and stuck it in the E4411B. I turned it on and ... nope, it still will not read the program like it should.If anyone out there has an explanation I'd love to hear it.

author: Nitrousoxide
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2021, 06:51:15 am
content: Well,Much delay in the revival of the project. I got around to playing with it again today.The new stick of ram I got didn't have any jumpers soldered in (not a good sign!!!). However, I soldered the appropriate jumper on the PCB and gave it a shot, and.... nothing. White screen of death.The new stick has KM44V4004BK-6 chips on it. Seems to be almost identical to the chips on your stick yet... nothing. So either the stick was DOA or even worse, the motherboard in the SA is faulty. The funny thing is, with no jumpers it detects only 8MB of ram.I guess I just go for a shotgun approach and just buy a few different ram sticks and hope that one... sticks.This upgrade is probably the more headache-inducing venture I have ever done in my EE career.EDIT: I just looked at the really fine details of the memory part numbers...I got a 3v3 2K ref whilst you have a 5V 2k ref... I hate technology sometimes...I guess I had some form of foreshight and ordered some of the identical flash chips from aliexpress, so I will solder them on to the existing module and give that a shot.

author: ua4yhz
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 15, 2022, 06:27:04 pm
content: My E4411B firmware loads normally. Only need to format the floppy disk on the analyzer itself.But the firmware A.14.06 does not want to download. And knob "continue" don't work.I ordered memory chips LH28F320SKTD-L70 for option B72.

author: ua4yhz
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 16, 2022, 08:38:58 am
content: Quote from: Nitrousoxide on June 26, 2021, 06:51:15 amAs an alternative to the LH28F320SKTD-L70 chip, I think it is possible to use LH28F160S5T-L70A or LH28F160S5H-L70.But I didn't check it.

author: philpem
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 16, 2022, 09:47:52 am
content: Quote from: ua4yhz on April 16, 2022, 08:38:58 amDepends if the analyser needs the full amount of memory. The 28F320 is a 32Mbit part, the 28F160 is 16Mbit -- half the size.Two 28F160 chips would give 8Mbyte FlashTwo 28F320 chips would give 16Mbyte FlashEdit: from the screenshots above, 8MB Flash is the unexpanded module, which won't fit the latest firmware - so the 28F320 chips are required

author: ua4yhz
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 23, 2022, 06:11:28 pm
content: Quote from: philpem on April 16, 2022, 09:47:52 amYes you are right.

author: ua4yhz
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 03, 2022, 11:55:06 am
content: The memory chips arrived today. Soldered 2 new chips.Everything worked without problems.Firmware version A.14.06 also got up without problems.

author: edp
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 25, 2023, 03:11:29 am
content: Hi all, old thread but i thought I'd share what i learned the hard way regarding the issue experienced by xrunner and others with the ESALOADER floppy disk not booting.As far as I can see, the SA *really* wants ESALOADER to be the *only* thing on the floppy....including directory entries.If you're using a newish Windows OS (I was using W10), it will automatically add a hidden/system folder "System Volume Information" to your floppy. Even the act of just inserting the floppy (without any deliberate read/write action) will cause Windows to inspect the floppy and "helpfully" add the folder if it's not there.I understand there is a way to disable this behaviour with a registry setting (search for "windows disable system volume info removable media"), but as I had a working WinXP system, i just used it to prepare the floppies - no problems.I did lots of experiments formatting the floppies and copying the files on different systems (including formatting on the SA). They could all be read on the SA using the file menu so I'm confident it's not a format/drive issue.FYI I was using the same USB floppy drive on both systems.Good luck!

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 25, 2023, 03:39:01 am
content: Quote from: edp on January 25, 2023, 03:11:29 amThank you edp, hopefully it will help others take a shorter path than we have had to take!

author: edp
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2023, 06:23:48 am
content: Gratitude post!I managed to successfully upgrade the Flash SIMM in my e4402b thanks to the info in this thread (and from The Signal Path).Thanks in particular to Nitrous Oxide and xrunner for sharing your photos and experiences....and as xrunner found, if at first you don't succeed - take a closer look at the soldering of those tiny pins!cheers

author: rplabs
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2023, 10:10:59 am
content: Hello,From where are people ordering the LH28F320SKTD-L70 flash chips?I checked Mouser, Digi-Key and RS Components and they don't have them.I would like to get them from a trusted source. If I order from China maybe I will get some relabeled ones. Too many reports of the forum about fake/relabeled ICs.Thanks!

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2023, 11:57:28 am
content: Quote from: rplabs on February 16, 2023, 10:10:59 amI ordered from an Ebay supplier. Took a chance and they worked. I don't have any other solutions for you.

author: rplabs
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2023, 12:16:47 pm
content: I see. I just looked on ebay and some chips have some funny writing. The S in SHARP is like a 8.I also found some which look legit but I will need to confirm with seller if that is really what they will ship and not some fake ones.

author: feedback.loop
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2023, 06:40:49 pm
content: Is there a chance that 64Mbit chips would fit (28F640)?For instancehttps://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/rochester-electronics-llc/JS28F640P33T85A/11552140

author: rplabs
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2023, 08:13:34 pm
content: That one for sure not because it is 3.3V and the original ones are 5V.Other 64Mbit might work but I am not sure about the Memory Organization when it is formatted if it will be OK.

author: edp
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2023, 10:48:50 am
content: I ordered mine from ebay seller "chipsgate" in December 2022, here:https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/152799461939Mine worked ok... but yes, it is a gamble.

author: rplabs
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2023, 01:05:05 pm
content: Thanks! You received them new? I see it advertised as "new" but in the picture looks like they are desoldered.

author: edp
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: February 26, 2023, 11:47:31 pm
content: Yup brand new, no problems.

author: rplabs
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 02, 2023, 08:51:15 pm
content: Nice, those look like original ones. I ordered mine also from China and writing is the same in the the seller's pictures. Let's see what I will get.I also did some research for the RAM stick used and the following details are to be considered:32MB (4Mbit x 4 / chip / 16 chips)FPM 5V 60ns 2K RefreshImportant part here seems to be that you need FPM and not EDO memory. The Motorola 68K CPU in ESA doesn't support EDO memory. Did some reading on some vintage Apple forums because early Macs used same 68K CPU.I am not sure which model of the CPU is used in ESA but if it is not the 68040 maybe an upgrade can be done and it will be faster?!

author: edp
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 03, 2023, 08:24:45 am
content: Regarding RAM, I purchased one of these "32MB Ps/2 Edo Simm RAM Memory 60ns Non-Parity Hyundai HYM532814AM-60 IBM" from ebay seller electromyne and it works fine in my unit.

author: rplabs
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 03, 2023, 07:49:09 pm
content: That is very interesting. The original RAM sticks are all FPM. The 68K CPU works with FPM but I saw some reports for some late 68K Apple Macs that support both. Maybe HP/Agilent did some optimization to support both.Can you tell me what CPU board part number you have? My ESA is the old HP branded model from 1999. I saw on eBay some CPU boards that look a little bit different than mine.I have 2 EDO sticks 32MB 60ns 2K refresh. I will try it next week if I have time to see if it works. Maybe I don't need to buy new memory if these are OK.Thanks a lot for reporting that EDO memory works!

author: edp
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 04, 2023, 07:25:01 am
content: Hi rplabs, my e4402b reports processor board part # e440160059 serial # 01004407087 rev 99 D. Instrument serial is prefix US4024.

author: jwrodgers
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 30, 2023, 10:57:20 pm
content: Quote from: xrunner on January 25, 2023, 03:39:01 am