Is it really a teardown? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2016, 03:38:10 am
content: I noticed it several times here, somebody opens the cover of some electronic equipment, takes a few pictures, and calls it a 'teardown'.What do you think? Does every 'look inside' qualifies as a 'teardown'? If not, what is the difference between the two?The dictionary is pretty demanding when it comes to teardown: "an act of completely dismantling something", which is typically what you will see in an iFixit or Ave teardowns:Edit: the picture below is an example of what I would consider a clear teardown, much deeper than just opening the cover and taking 'inside look' pictures.

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2016, 03:54:10 am
content: Imo, as long it was done voluntarily, free to watch/read, the author can call whatever it is.

author: Ampera
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2016, 04:03:05 am
content: This is something I don't like about new compact electronics. They make for pretty damn boring teardowns because everything is on a couple of chips. When you had stuff like the Sony video Walkman, that was genuinely interesting because it was a leap into unexplored territory at the time, and thus has many interesting parts to it, but with a modern smarphone, years of compacting removes all that interesting stuff, so all you have is a small board, a load of tiny passives, and some chips.This counts as a teardown, it's just not a device I would want to watch a teardown of.

author: apelly
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 24, 2016, 07:25:29 am
content: I haven't looked at any of their stuff for a while, but usually they have details of what they needed to do to get it apart, good quality high res photos of everything and they go to the effort of identifying all the chips.Sounds like a tear down to me. I've used their pics before to find legit replacement parts.

author: fubar.gr
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 24, 2016, 07:58:20 am
content: In my opinion, a good teardown is that where there's some explanation of how the device works internally.For example, this here is a bad teardown. This guy simply dismantles the VR headset to bits and pieces, but offers zero explanation about how it works.

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2016, 09:57:53 am
content: This is an interesting question.From my standpoint, I sometimes like to see what resides inside a piece of equipment in order to better understand the construction, chipset used and any interesting aspects that could not be seen from outside.I will admit that I use the term 'teardown' in its most generic form as an indicator that an equipment is going to be opened and pictures of the PCB and internal mechanisms shown. That is enough for some readers. If I am only opening the case and showing the sub modules that remain sealed, I call that a pseudo teardown just to differentiate between full deconstruction and partial deconstruction.In my world, going deeper than a visual disassembly with comment on the chipset qualifies as a level of reverse engineering which is far more detailed than a mere teardown. Mike disassembling the Lepton core was far more than 'just' - teardown as the device was destroyed. A teardown is not normally terminal for the DUT if done carefully.I do not know about other readers but I like to look inside equipment to see how the designer put it together and the technology used. Schematic level detail, though nice, is not essential. This is especially the case these days as so often you find a PCB with one or more 'do it all' chips that reveal nothing about the actual electronic architecture of the device beyond providing the VLSI chip with its basic needs.I am fortunate to own an X-Ray machine so can non destructively look inside many e quipments. For others, the 'teardown', no matter how high level, provides an insight into an equipment that they may own, or have an interest in.To be honest, I do not worry what someone calls their disassembly of an equipment. Any insight into equipment can be interesting. Sometimes OP's are concerned about damaging their expensive equipment, but will dig deeper into the design if requested to do so.From my perspective I have, on occasions, been disappointed by the lack of comment on pictorial teardowns that I have done. Sure they are not videos like some like, but it still takes time and effort. I have recently been minded to not bother posting any sort of teardowns as they may be of little interest to the majority of readers. I appreciate anyone taking the time to. dismantle their kit, no matter what they title the process.Fraser

author: larrybl
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2016, 09:16:23 pm
content: I consider this a tear down.... In my feeble mind, A complete disassembly with the intent to reassemble to operating condition.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2016, 11:12:15 pm
content: Quote from: BravoV on October 24, 2016, 03:54:10 amThis sounds like gender identity, it's whatever one likes, but then words loose their meaning.

author: Buriedcode
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2016, 11:35:14 pm
content: Like anything that grows in popularity - the number of 'geeky' eople, and those who openly admit getting a thrill from seeing how stuff works - the more others jump on the bandwagon. I too have noticed the 'teardown' label used for what I would consider 'taking a few screws out'.Generally there's always some trooper who goes the whole nine, even identifying components and giving opinions as to why design decisions were made, but teardowns are becoming increasingly lackluster. Possibly because of the increased difficultly in taking products - that aren't designed to be repaired - apart. Maybe I'm just cynical but I can't help but feel that *some* are just people wanting to be part of a community'. Like the the word 'hack' which has been recruited for things like 'use a paper clip to keep pieces of paper together #lifehacks'.With that said, if I have something that I'm curious about, I'll take it apart myself. I've destroyed enough equipment in my youth that I am no longer shocked when I break it.

author: doobedoobedo
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2016, 12:00:11 am
content: Quote from: larrybl on October 24, 2016, 09:16:23 pmIt's not a proper teardown and reassembly unless you have at least one spare nut or bolt at the end

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 25, 2016, 01:20:12 am
content: ... make that a spare bolt or screw. There's always a loose nut around.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 25, 2016, 01:22:48 am
content: Personally, I like a tear down to take me inside a piece of gear so that I can understand the design challenges and choices - not to necessarily be able to create my own design, but to understand how and why things were done the way they were.

author: lowimpedance
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2016, 02:01:56 am
content: A 'tear down' to me means a full disassemble with a view to servicing and refurbish then reassemble back to operation where as taking the covers off and documenting the internals with pictures is a 'look inside'.I guess there is quite a bit in between full disassemble and a few pics so at which point does it transition from a look inside to tear down.

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2016, 11:43:15 am
content: Hmmm well this pretty much confirms what I already suspected.I tend to dismantle a unit into its constituent PCB's and mechanical parts but apart from listing the IC's used, I go no further. It is clear to me now that this is not a true teardown for some readers. I post the disassembly images purely for the interest of the readership and for no other reasons.This thread has been interesting and helpful as I am not going to waste time photographing and posting stuff that is not truly useful to the readership. No more equipment disassembly posts from me. I hate wasting my time.Fraser

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2016, 02:32:42 pm
content: Quote from: Fraser on October 25, 2016, 11:43:15 amFraser, this thread is about the the meaning of a 'look inside' vs. a 'teardown', not which one is more beneficial, prestigious or enjoyable. A look inside can be just as interesting and definitely has it place here. Otherwise we fall into all-or-nothing land.And since you have a XRay machine, you don't even need to open the cover to post look insides. ;-)

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2016, 03:10:44 pm
content: Hi Zapta,Do not get me wrong, I am not miffed in any way about the content of this discussion. I have been wondering whether to post images of the inside of equipment I repair or service for some time. I wondered just how interesting, or not, such images truly were. I got some feedback saying that images really needed to be at the 2M Pixel size rather than VGA as details were hard to see. I complied but with only 2 pictures per post and a 60 second delay (thanks to that Mojo Chan chap spamming the forum) between posts it is getting tedious.I rarely got any significant discussion resulting from such posts so assumed that they were actually not of that much interest. It is hard to make still images at limited resolution very interestingI have not got the time to do a reverse engineering write up on all the units I disassemble so that may be a factor in the apparent lack of interest.Well I have decided to stop doing disassembly posts as they really are just a faff and as this thread has quite correctly highlighted, a 'look see' inside an equipment has limited appeal when compared to a proper teardown such as Mike produces.With regard to X-Ray imaging, I was amazed at how popular my images were. I think that is more about people enjoying the images and what can, or cannot be seen, rather than what can actually be understood from them. Its more about the technology of the imager and the nice images it can produce, rather than the DUT itself. I use it as a tool, little different to using a good microscope for optical work in electronics. I have let that X-Ray thread rest for a while as I have other priorities at the moment. I may post more X-Ray images if I can find interesting DUT's to image.My thanks for raising this thread though Zapta. It has honestly been helpful in understanding peoples needs and perceptions relating to a teardown. I just do not have the time or inclination to take the next step up to true teardowns and videos, such as Mike produces.Fraser

author: lowimpedance
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2016, 10:54:58 pm
content: Quote from: Fraser on October 25, 2016, 03:10:44 pmI should also add that I also generally have only gone the 'look inside' approach when I wish to add something to the forum that has not been posted and will still be hopefully interesting/useful. And also a full dismantle may not be a good idea with respect to some equipment but a look is still of value.What I am trying to say is please do not discard the simple look inside as a waste of the forum space and your time, in particular if a bit of gear you happen to already have the lid off is a bit unusual or no other images exist. All information is good. from a look to the full tear down. BTW from my perspective I don't always want to see only tear downs.Lack of responses does not mean lack of interest.

author: Ampera
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 26, 2016, 12:54:56 am
content: Quote from: zapta on October 24, 2016, 11:12:15 pmNot to get in a debate as this topic causes flame wars better than a napalm and nitro glycerin slurry, but the idea is the gender is what you think you are while sex is what you are. The validity to the interpretations of those terms are shaky, but that's what most people say.Again it's a rough topic, I have the misfortune (depending on how one looks at it) of having to deal with this sorta stuff, but I can definitely see what you mean. The worst part is when you can't tell if theperson is joking or not.

author: C
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 26, 2016, 01:28:24 am
content: FraserIn your repair work you may see a new good idea or bad idea.Think of the good you might do posting a picture and comment.Just the picture does not tell what caught you eye. Add a short note to picture and you could give someone an idea to cure a problem or stay out of a problem.Some people do come up with some pretty slick ways to cure a problem.You might say " repairing this was a pain because of ______ " or " this caused the failure"Or ' this is a neat idea "

author: Buriedcode
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 26, 2016, 02:04:41 am
content: I should probably add to the 'didn't mean it was shit' replies. As 'lowimpedance' stated, all information is welcome. A peak at a board is better than no peak at all. And I understand that it must take a fair bit of preparation and time to do full teardowns - and even then some won't care about the product whilst others get wetter than an otters pocket.As the OP said, there should probably be some form of distinction between the terms, although in here it seems to lean towards the 'full teardown'. I'll confess I've lost many hours watching mikes teardowns - not the very cautious and gentle approach, but someone who clearly knows what they're doing and who *really* wants to see inside something, even if it involves hammers.X-ray images, whilst not really a 'teardown' have their own intriguing quality and dare I say, beauty. I'm sure many appreciate those.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 26, 2016, 02:22:37 am
content: Quote from: Fraser on October 25, 2016, 11:43:15 amHi Fraser, you can collect data that will help you with the decision making. E.g. post a 'looking inside' thread and have in it a poll, would you like to see more of this, yes/no. You don't need to qualify it as 'useful', 'educating' etc. just ask if people want to see more of that format.My bet is that 'yes' will win.

author: apelly
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 26, 2016, 05:00:52 am
content: Quote from: Fraser on October 25, 2016, 11:43:15 amDude, your posts are some of the best! And the delicious detail in your accompanying write ups; always a pleasure to read!I'm not always 100% interested in 100% of what you say, nor do I every know 100% about the topic, but I always learn something and it really is great to see the effort you put in. It is not wasted.Quote from: FraserColour me guilty. I don't usually have a great deal to say. I'll make a point of trying to ask interesting questions in future.

author: Berni
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 26, 2016, 05:33:59 am
content: I say a teardown counts as disassembling all the interesting parts to make them visible.Teardown photos can be very useful sometimes when you want to see if a piece of equipment is the same thing in a different case or you get a piece of equipment that is already half disassembled or has parts missing to see how it all fits back together and where things should be. Other times you might have a piece of equipment that's not obvious how to take apart without damaging it.No need to rip apart and destroy the equipment (well sometimes it is when things are glued,potted,welded...) but when it is a video teardown i enjoy it a lot more if someone is talking about the parts as they tear it down. But they should at least know what they are talking about rather that going "oooo look at that shiny thingamabob" all the time (Especially if its some obscure device that i have no idea how it works)

author: dexters_lab
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 27, 2016, 11:02:47 pm
content: Imo a teardown should include at least some detail about the parts and everything should be looked at. Not everyone has the experience to go into much detail though, i do the best i can but do struggle sometimesIf there is something unusual that requires it to be distroyed in the process then i would use a term coined by mikeselectricstuff.... Extreme teardown!I agree though that modern consumer electronics can be pretty dull

author: Berni
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 28, 2016, 05:12:21 am
content: Yeah i like the "Extreme teardown" term for when the teardown involves smashing and dremling the thing to bits with no regard for putting it back together again. A lot of the obscure stuff that mike tears down this way is so obscure it wouldn't even be useful if it worked (And that's why i like them).But yeah even modern test equipment is getting dull to look inside. More and more stuff is done in magic single chip solutions.

author: Ampera
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 29, 2016, 05:06:49 pm
content: Quote from: Berni on October 28, 2016, 05:12:21 amExtreme teardown is what PhotonicInduction does.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2016, 02:42:54 pm
content: Fraser, whatever you post is always interesting, and worth a look at. May not comment as i have no clue as to why it was done that way, or how it works, but always appreciated the images.Electronupdate has fascinating chip scale images, and those are always interesting, as you see the layout, but you have the Xray view of how this chip was in relation to the equipment, and the details of how it was made and taken apart is good.http://IMG_1287bySeanB_ZA, on Flickr