superfast (too fast?) electric scooters - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: DiTBho
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 20, 2023, 08:48:17 pm
content: Today I triedthismonster, and ...... reached73Km/hI am afraid it's too fast, and dual 1200W motors eats too much electricityFlat battery after 50 kmI had to walk backand that thing really weighs too much

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 20, 2023, 08:49:29 pm
content: At least it didn't catch fire!I find this a bit expensive for a chinese scooter.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 20, 2023, 08:53:03 pm
content: Just because it can go that fast doesn't mean you have to ride it that fast.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 20, 2023, 08:55:04 pm
content: On a private road I hope. These things are illegal to use on the public road in the UK and many other countries.As a motorcyclist, I wouldn't feel safe on that thing. The wheels are far too small to be safe at that speed, especially on the UK roads which are full of potholes.

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 20, 2023, 09:32:27 pm
content: I wouldn't be going that fast without a full face helmet and a bunch of padding.1200Wh battery doesn't seem too bad though. 50km is more than I'd ever want to go in one ride.

author: DiTBho
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 20, 2023, 09:47:01 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on April 20, 2023, 08:53:03 pmnot my fault, I was testing the throttle

author: DiTBho
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 20, 2023, 09:48:04 pm
content: Quote from: thm_w on April 20, 2023, 09:32:27 pmyup! i wore them

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 20, 2023, 09:54:40 pm
content: Quote from: DiTBho on April 20, 2023, 09:48:04 pmSo was it just a test ride or do you own it? Are you going to get one for commuting.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 20, 2023, 10:05:29 pm
content: This one is even more insane:

author: DiTBho
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 20, 2023, 10:36:19 pm
content: Quote from: thm_w on April 20, 2023, 09:54:40 pmtest rideI need something slower, but able to cover 90 Km with one battery charge.I am not sure I need two motors.

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 20, 2023, 11:41:44 pm
content: Dentists best friends.

author: John B
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 20, 2023, 11:54:31 pm
content: JFC these things are free darwin award coupons.Everything about these makes the stability awful. Tiny wheels, centre of gravity, handlebars and rake angle......I got thrown off one of these things at 20kmh on the tiniest of bumps. Whats hilarious is that I rode over the same bump with my mountain bike and I could roll over it without even holding the handlebars. The difference in stability is night and day.Unfortunately the world is full of darwin award candidates, and so the more people do stupid stuff on them, the more government and police attention it's going to bring to everyone else.Also, I have come off a motorcycle and slid down the road at 80kmh. I had leathers with armor inserts. You wont be dressed like that on one of these scooters, and if you come off you can expect a serious hospital stay with skin grafts.

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 21, 2023, 12:13:49 am
content: I don't think two motors gets you too much other than faster acceleration. As long as you have braking on the front and back, which I'm sure all of the high end ones will.The range is probably harder to find. They seem to top out around ~1500Wh.This one is only 24kg weight, but looks cheaply made:https://www.voromotors.com/en-ca/products/emove-cruiser?ref=electricscooterinsiderQuote from: John B on April 20, 2023, 11:54:31 pmYes the stability is crap, you 100% have to keep your hands on at all times.I thought the small wheels were due to a legal requirement but here it is 430mm diameter maximum. Maybe in other countries they specify a smaller diameter?OP may be better off with an e-bike, if the roads are rough, for sure.

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 21, 2023, 12:31:49 am
content: Needs to be a 'Skip-Flyer' to be practical, as in those potholes mentioned...; Partial rolling, towards pothole surface defect, and then, turbine up to speed, it does a 32 foot span 'HOP' barely clearing any ground surfaces.That's why they call it a 'Skip-Hop' ground effect.

author: John B
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 21, 2023, 12:45:18 am
content: Quote from: thm_w on April 21, 2023, 12:13:49 amYeah, and it gets even worse. On motorcycles and bicycles it's advantageous to not hold onto the handlebars too hard. This reduces fatigue, but also reduces the positive feedback loop between your hands/arms and the bars. Ie, when you hit bumps or uneveness, that shock gets sent through your arms and hands to the steering input, which then further upsets the bike.On the death scooters, I found myself holding on far too hard to ensure bars didn't throw me off again. My hands and wrists got far too fatigued.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 21, 2023, 01:41:39 am
content: Quote from: thm_w on April 21, 2023, 12:13:49 amThere are countries with more permissive lightweight vehicle standards/requirements (The Netherlands being one).

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 21, 2023, 01:48:38 am
content: Quote from: DiTBho on April 20, 2023, 10:36:19 pmThat's into electric motorbike range, a 20kg battery is fairly impractical for most people on a bicycle or scooter.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 21, 2023, 02:01:53 am
content: Quotehow about a carver,100km range,top speed 28mph,and you wont get wet

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 21, 2023, 03:24:07 am
content: And good thing is that, while those scooters may not save you, they will save the planet!

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 21, 2023, 07:35:05 am
content: Quote from: DiTBho on April 20, 2023, 10:36:19 pmForget about getting anything like that, unless you're going to use it in a country where they're legal, or on private roads only.If you have a motorcycle licence, I'm sure there are better options. If not and you don't want to take your motorcycle test, then get an ebike. In the UK, the law states motor can only pedal assist, up to 20kmph. They can be hacked for more of course, but you'll be in big trouble if you're caught.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 25, 2023, 03:43:56 am
content: Quote from: Zero999 on April 21, 2023, 07:35:05 amDo they actually enforce that over there? Here they are technically illegal to ride on public roads but that doesn't seem to stop anybody, and there are even rideshare scooters scattered all over downtown Seattle. I see people riding them in the street, on sidewalks and everywhere else, haven't heard of anyone being cited although that doesn't mean it never happens.

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 25, 2023, 04:21:30 am
content: Around here the cops wont really do anything unless you are being a dick about it, or doing something unsafe.If you are on an e-scooter at high speed but are doing it safely and wearing good safety gear they will likely leave you alone or at worst just give you a warning for going a bit too fast. Kinda the same with e-bikes, everyone has more watts than legal because the law has not been updated in ages but no one cares unless you're doing something unsafe.An e-scooter accident at 50kph is going to be much worse than an e-bike accident at 50kph, simply because you are more likely to be thrown off and facepalm into the ground on a e-scooter.So the risk is higher, but an e-scooter is far more portable and easier to take on the bus/train and into the office at work.Really just a tradeoff you have to make.But if using an e-scooter I would definitely recommend investing in a good quality helmet, gloves and whatever else would make it safer to be thrown off the thing at high speed.I've wanted to get one for ages but every time I think about it I come to the same conclusion.It would be used instead of walking, and walking/exercise is good.So it... costs money, is dangerous, probably make me put on weight, might burn house down ..verses.. It's fun to use.The cost/benefit analysis seems a bit one sided

author: silenceisblissfulness
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: April 25, 2023, 06:39:22 am
content: I don't see what's wrong with good old fashioned, HEALTHY cycling? I made this comment to someone last night - they agreed. Why do we need electric scooters? Kids used to BIKE everywhere years ago...

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 25, 2023, 08:20:00 am
content: The law isn't enforced very well here. I don't have a problem with people who only pose a risk to themselves. The problem is many of these idiots go on footpaths and pose a risk of pedestrians. Low power scooters and ebikes should be legalised, then there should be a clamp down on those who use them illegally.

author: John B
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 25, 2023, 08:54:21 am
content: Quote from: silenceisblissfulness on April 25, 2023, 06:39:22 amI realised I was getting old when I discovered that you could use a phone app, to pay someone to bring your fast food from a restaurant to your front doorstep.</kids these days></get off my lawn>

author: Berni
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 25, 2023, 09:50:40 am
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on April 21, 2023, 03:24:07 amWell the carbon footprint of an average US person is 16 tones per year. So i suppose that safety aspect makes them even better for the environment

author: mfro
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 25, 2023, 09:58:19 am
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on April 21, 2023, 03:24:07 amSome times even with double the effect

author: AndyBeez
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 25, 2023, 10:04:23 am
content: I assume you achieved Mac 1 when you were off road on a runway?One question, how fast can it stop? Or is it another one of those, get out of my way as I am saving the planet and I therefore have the right to ignore all road markings, road users and people on the sidewalk, electric contraptions?

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 25, 2023, 10:49:58 am
content: QuoteAll depends on the mood of the copper.To make things more fun you can legally use one in certain areas if you rent it.,but cant use one on the same roads if you own it.

author: silenceisblissfulness
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: April 25, 2023, 11:01:05 am
content: Quote from: John B on April 25, 2023, 08:54:21 amphones are great. Been ordering delivered food for decades; the app is a MINOR convenience, marketed as if they split the atom. Bloke picks up bag, gets in car and drives food to me.... except now the middle men @ the app service charge the outlet, and me, 35% MORE than if I'd ordered direct by phone and paid cash.I use "Just Eat" app all the time, but let's not pretend its some "revolution", it is just middle men cashing in on slobbish lazy consumers who are "too busy" on their sofas to cook.

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 25, 2023, 10:31:45 pm
content: Quote from: silenceisblissfulness on April 25, 2023, 06:39:22 amSo when is the last time you biked anywhere? How about go for a ride instead of complaining here.DiTBho is a regular cyclist, but he may not be in the mood to bike 90km on a daily basis. I don't think I'd want to do more than 40k, at that point I'd get an ebike.

author: John B
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2023, 07:47:03 am
content: Is silenceisblissfulness who I think it is?

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2023, 08:50:35 am
content: Quote from: thm_w on April 25, 2023, 10:31:45 pmMe too, but I wouldn't consider an illegal scooter or ebike. I'd use a legal motorcycle or car. Electric options are available.

author: langwadt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2023, 03:47:54 pm
content: Quote from: John B on April 21, 2023, 12:45:18 amon a bike you have three "points of contact"; feet, butt, and hands, one of them is redundanton a scooter you only have two, hands and feet

author: langwadt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2023, 03:56:18 pm
content: Quote from: themadhippy on April 25, 2023, 10:49:58 amhere e-bikes (<250W,<25km/h), e-scooters (+15yo, <20km/h, helmet required) and "speed pedelec" (+18yo, 45km/h, insurance and helmet required) are legal

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2023, 04:46:37 pm
content: Quote from: langwadt on April 26, 2023, 03:56:18 pmIt's pretty similar here, except e-scooters are illegal to use on public roads, except as part of a hire scheme in certain areas, in which case one has to prove they have a driving licence.Quote from: themadhippy on April 25, 2023, 10:49:58 amThe hire schemes are terrible. People abandon them in silly places, ride dangerously and allow their children to use them. They should be scrapped. I'm more in favour of legalising them, with strict limits to the maximum speed, wheel diameter and tyre size and standards for the brakes and lights. Any who allows someone to ride their scooter who shouldn't because they're underage, don't have a licence or insurance should have points on their licence, a fine and their scooter taken off them.

author: langwadt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2023, 05:34:18 pm
content: Quote from: Zero999 on April 26, 2023, 04:46:37 pmhere the hire ones will only let you sign out an and ride in certain places and to sign out you have to take a picture of how you parked itso abandoning them will get expensive and parking silly will get you banned.but the whole hire scheme of jumping on a scooter easy sign in with your phone and get on your way, is sorta pointless now that helmets have been made mandatory

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2023, 09:42:55 pm
content: Quote from: Zero999 on April 26, 2023, 08:50:35 amYeah, if you have more money those are also options.Here its hilly so even the 32km/h legal ebike is enough that you could beat me pedaling, and make good time.The 25km/h UK limit is a touch low though, IMO.

author: DiTBho
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 27, 2023, 12:59:26 am
content: Quote from: thm_w on April 25, 2023, 10:31:45 pm40km every day; when i go back home i take the road bicycle ( titanium-90s frame) for a short round trip, usually 90km during weekend, sometimes 120kmif it rains or the weather is not good, I have an indoor bicycle kit.I don't like ebikes, I simply want to try electric scooters ...... even if, I'm more fascinated by electric snowmobiles

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 27, 2023, 09:15:14 am
content: Quote from: thm_w on April 26, 2023, 09:42:55 pmThat's the whole point: to limit the speed to what an average person can sustain for a decent period of time on an ordinary bike.

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 27, 2023, 11:25:32 pm
content: Quote from: Zero999 on April 27, 2023, 09:15:14 amI can't find the justification for the laws but, it could also be a direct safety consideration. Above X speed injuries will be much worse.But my point was it varies based on region. We've got UK 25km/h, Canada 32km/h, USA 32-45km/h. Is the UK one "right"?25km/h on a flat road, is only 115W of output power. Its a bit hard to see that the average person can only output 115W for 1hr. But if you include sedentary individuals, you could be right.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2023, 12:15:10 am
content: Quote from: thm_w on April 27, 2023, 11:25:32 pm"average" person is below that figure, while self selecting "fit" people would come in around there:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_powerEven young healthy males have trouble meeting 150W for an hour and that's operating to exhaustion:"Effects of Differing Pedalling Speeds on the Power-Duration Relationship of High Intensity Cycle Ergometry." McNaughton & Thomas 1996(people cycling for transport generally don't arrive unable to function)

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2023, 12:00:56 pm
content: Quote from: thm_w on April 27, 2023, 11:25:32 pmThe same could be said about anything.I think 25kmph was decided based on the fact it's the most common speed for a typical cyclist and what most other road users will expect someone on a bike to be doing. I do notice when I'm cycling fast, I get more people pulling out in front of me, overtaking dangerously and cutting me up, because they tend to underestimate my speed.QuoteAround 100W is considered typical for an average person, with moderate effort, not a fit person, let alone athlete.

author: langwadt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2023, 12:20:18 pm
content: Quote from: Zero999 on April 28, 2023, 12:00:56 pmthis is for cyclistshttps://www.cyclinganalytics.com/blog/2018/06/how-does-your-cycling-power-output-compare

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2023, 01:21:57 pm
content: Quote from: langwadt on April 28, 2023, 12:20:18 pmThat's not representative of the average population, but keen cyclists.QuoteThe average power output for a group of working age people, 16 to 70, split 50/50 male/female will be much lower and I'm also talking about moderate effort, not pushing hard at it.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2023, 03:16:51 pm
content: Quote from: silenceisblissfulness on April 25, 2023, 06:39:22 amIn those days you had a single block time commitment, and generally weren't covering 95 km. I am gradually aging out of bicycles, but in the last decade a 90km ride was a four to five hour commitment that left me hot, sweaty and too tired to do anything else for a few hours. If you are looking for transportation rather than exercise an ebike is a great option that can also add a bit of exercise.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2023, 04:53:39 pm
content: Quote from: CatalinaWOW on April 28, 2023, 03:16:51 pmMost people here wouldn't want to commute any decent distance on motorcycle,. because the weather isn't nice most of the time. Personally speaking, in the winter getting warm is a benefit of cycling and is why I wouldn't want an ebike.

author: langwadt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2023, 05:12:00 pm
content: Quote from: Zero999 on April 28, 2023, 04:53:39 pmyou can use it as a normal bike, here the rules limit the electric aid to below 25km/h, so just pedal faster

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2023, 07:41:47 pm
content: Quote from: langwadt on April 28, 2023, 05:12:00 pmSure, but for pedaling, I just prefer normal bikes though, that don't weigh 30kg.

author: langwadt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2023, 08:00:01 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on April 28, 2023, 07:41:47 pmafaict electric roadbikes are more like 12-15kg

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2023, 08:33:57 pm
content: Quote from: langwadt on April 28, 2023, 08:00:01 pmI've not seen an ebike that light before. It think the point is, if you're fit, there's not much point in an electric bike, unless you travel a hilly route, because most of the time it won't be providing any assistance. Heck I'm getting on a bit. I'm 41 and have had some injuries which have taken their toll on my performance: soft tissue scarring to my right leg, which means it aches, if I push it too hard and I had a pneumothorax on my right lung and I still average way higher than the ebike limit on my commute to work.Going back to the rationale for the limit in the UK: there are quite a lot of shared pedestrian & cycle tracks and the limit is there to avoid posing too much of a danger to pedestrians. I daren't use one of those cycle tracks near where I live in the dark because it's very difficult to see people dressed in dark clothing, even with good lights, especially in poor weather conditions. I even take time off in winter, so I can get to work and back in the daylight. I once went on the road because there was a gale force wind behind me and I was going downhill, when I saw a group of people in the distance, because I was doing well over 50kmph and there were no cars around, otherwise I would have slowed down. I know there are other cyclists who would have just carried on past them at that silly speed.

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 29, 2023, 05:10:13 am
content: The point of an E-bike to me is for it to be fun to drive/ride, basically like you have a mini-motorbike with fun acceleration.Pedal-assist is totally pointless to me, give me a throttle or there's no point.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 29, 2023, 01:12:34 pm
content: Quote from: Psi on April 29, 2023, 05:10:13 amI don't know about Australia, but in the UK, which is where the original poster is, all ebikes have to be pedal assist, capped to 250W and 25kmph. Want a throttle? Get a motorcycle licence. Sorry. I don't make the rules and would not advocate breaking the law.

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 29, 2023, 11:45:37 pm
content: Yeah, that law is pretty common in many parts of the world, a lot of people DIY building a E-bike ignore it and add a throttle anyway.You can do it somewhat stealthy, so it's not obvious if the police actually check that but most dont.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 30, 2023, 08:00:04 am
content: Quote from: Psi on April 29, 2023, 11:45:37 pmAll is well, until you're involved in a serious accident, then they'll make more of an effort to investigate.

author: shapirus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 30, 2023, 08:16:19 am
content: Quote from: langwadt on April 28, 2023, 08:00:01 pmthat's the weight of an average full-suspension MTB (and those close to 12 kg are a higher-level expensive ones) without batteries and motors.

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 30, 2023, 08:37:05 am
content: Quote from: Zero999 on April 30, 2023, 08:00:04 amThere is some risk to it yes, but in NZ at least the law doesn't actually ban having a throttle.It's more that the e-bike must:"be designed to be primarily propelled by the muscular energy of the rider".So it's more about what the bike was "designed" to do rather than what you're were actually using it for at any specific time.This is a bit of a loop hole as it was never written to regulate home-built bikes, it was intended for e-bikes you buy in a store.It also comes down to how you define "primarily". If you only ever use pedal assist but only put in 20% of the energy are you in compliance with the law?If you have a huge battery pack that takes up a significant amount of space on the bike then it's pretty hard to argue the primary use of the bike is for pedaling.But if you have a normal size battery and a throttle you can still argue that you primarily pedal when on the bike and it's hard for them to prove you don't typically pedal and just so happened to be using the throttle on the day of an accident. (assuming they can prove you actually were using it at all, which seems unlikely). And if the bike controller is set to always boot-up in pedal assist mode until you press a button to enable the throttle, then even better.

author: John B
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 30, 2023, 09:24:36 am
content: Quote from: Psi on April 30, 2023, 08:37:05 am"Yes officer, my legs produce 5kW each."

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 30, 2023, 11:06:58 am
content: Quote from: Zero999 on April 29, 2023, 01:12:34 pmAustralia had transitionary rules that allowed throttles, then adopted the EU pedal assist / 250W / 25km limits. Over in The Netherlands where light weight speed limited vehicles have a much longer history (more categories, and different spaces to use) the Police have solutions:

author: langwadt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 30, 2023, 12:50:49 pm
content: Quote from: Someone on April 30, 2023, 11:06:58 amso you deploy VW dieselgate tactics and make sure it is within legal limits on the test stand

author: langwadt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 30, 2023, 12:51:46 pm
content: Quote from: Zero999 on April 30, 2023, 08:00:04 amand you might be ruined because no insurance will cover

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 30, 2023, 02:30:08 pm
content: Quote from: Psi on April 30, 2023, 08:37:05 amThe law in the UK is more clear. The fact it's ambiguous where you live, is more concerning. It's a tactic of authoritarian regimes, who apply the law, when it suits them. No, I'm not picking on New Zealand. The UK also has some laws which are ambiguous, such as the one around TV licencing, which doesn't clearly define a TV station.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 30, 2023, 09:36:19 pm
content: Quote from: langwadt on April 30, 2023, 12:50:49 pmYou can do what you like, but over here if spotted by some officer of the law going above the limited speed (that they can substantiate) or something else that catches their attention then you can end up with the vehicle impounded and all the bonus unregistered/uninsured/unlicensed fines along with it.https://maribyrnonghobsonsbay.starweekly.com.au/news/electric-bike-impounded/https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-10-06/escooter-illegal-to-ride-victoria-police-safety-blitz/101498938

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 01, 2023, 12:02:03 pm
content: It would be pretty trivial to have a 250W power and 25kph speed limit the default and those limits get disabled on hidden button press. Then you just need to power it off if you suspect it's going to be tested.Not suggesting anyone does that. just saying...

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 01, 2023, 12:05:01 pm
content: Quote from: Zero999 on April 30, 2023, 02:30:08 pmNa, the rules just have not been updated in ages.

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 01, 2023, 10:59:07 pm
content: Quote from: Someone on April 28, 2023, 12:15:10 amThe first wiki link is just someones estimate of "50-150W".The second one is a good find, shows an infinite line at about 110W. So healthy 24y/o male could cycle easily at 110W for hours. 150W for an hour was the average failure point as you say.Semi related one I found, power in trained males seemed to drop more with age vs womenhttps://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3794488/

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 02, 2023, 12:13:30 am
content: Quote from: thm_w on May 01, 2023, 10:59:07 pmexhaustion /= easilyalso those figures and plots are extrapolated from a simple model that breaks down at longer (1h plus) durations so the numbers are not representative of longer durations or "infinity":https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/a-possible-way-to-keep-your-fridge-cold-in-long-term-blackouts/msg4245910/#msg4245910>100W for hours at a time is moving into amateur athlete territory. 100W in 1h is already way above "average" person, but do find some figures to support your claims.....

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 02, 2023, 09:48:24 pm
content: Quote from: Someone on May 02, 2023, 12:13:30 amI'm sure you've experienced the same thing when running, hiking, working whatever. Push yourself a bit, find the point at which you start to progressively wear out, then dial it back. At that level you can go for many hours. You can verify this by looking at a power curve, where power output is recorded on all of your rides, then it gets mapped against time spent.One example (super fit person, not average):You can see the difference in power between 2 and 4h is minimal, maybe a few percent. Obviously we don't approach infinity, as we need sleep, but, maybe 5-10h until you see a drop.https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5070974/https://www.highnorth.co.uk/articles/critical-power-calculator

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 02, 2023, 10:10:24 pm
content: A friend of mine pointed me to a website selling scooters with an output power (peak) of 8400W and a top speed of about 60 mph. That particular scooter weighed 50kg. With a 100kg rider, say, it has a total mass of 150kg, and a power-to-weight ratio of 56W per kg.What else has a power to weight ratio in the same range? The VW Golf 1.5 TSI (2022) with fuel and driver weighs about 1400kg and has an output power of 96kW peak. That's about 68W per kg.So this scooter has nearly the same power to weight ratio as a VW Golf, a vehicle for which you need insurance and a proper licence adminstered by a test facility to operate. Obviously, the collision damage risk for the Golf is far worse; I'm not doubting that. But I've also little doubt that 30+ mph of 150kg scooter and rider hitting a pedestrian will also be fatal.These vehicles are going to be used; the "cat is out of the bag". It is up to the government to find appropriate regulations for them. That will almost certainly include insurance, and possibly a basic competency test. They'd better figure it out sooner, rather than later.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 02, 2023, 10:54:15 pm
content: Quote from: thm_w on May 02, 2023, 09:48:24 pmYou can keep pointing to data from athletes, but that does not link/match/inform data about average people. Every person is unique and has different limitations on their sustained power, the amateur trials that NASA modelled dropped 30-40% from 2hr to 4hr, 150W to 100W. Or you know instead of trying to extrapolate on highly variable human performance data, just go back to the actual question...Quote from: thm_w on April 27, 2023, 11:25:32 pmTo design road infrastructure the speed of the users is measured, average cyclists being somewhere around 15km/h (already a self selecting group, and not indicative of overall population average). Average bicycle speed sampled in real use 13.5km/hhttps://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/1687814015616918The histograms only have a few outliers above 25km/h, making the 25km/h limit seem pretty reasonable.

author: langwadt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 02, 2023, 11:17:40 pm
content: https://youtube.com/shorts/PuYkPzFBUE0

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 03, 2023, 07:28:18 am
content: Regarding the average speed of cyclists: it's not just how fast one can comfortably go, but also how safe it is and stopping and starting through busy traffic. For example, my average speed might be 25kmph, over 10km or so, but that will include slowing down for pedestrians and stopping to wait for traffic. It's probably closer to 30kmph, when I'm at a steady pace, on a clear road.

author: langwadt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 03, 2023, 12:16:06 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on May 02, 2023, 10:10:24 pmwhere in the world would such a scooter not be illegal to drive on public roads?

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 03, 2023, 04:51:25 pm
content: Quote from: langwadt on May 03, 2023, 12:16:06 pmIf the tyres and brakes were good enough to pass and MoT (the UK road safety check), it was taxed and the driver insured, then it would be perfectly legal to ride in the UK.Another thing to note about power to weight ratio is an electric motor has most of the torque at lower speeds, whist an internal combustion engine has its peak at high speeds, so a scooter with that specification would beat most cars off the lights, even though it would be left behind on the motorway.

author: langwadt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 03, 2023, 06:18:47 pm
content: Quote from: Zero999 on May 03, 2023, 04:51:25 pmbut then it would be classified and registered as a motorcycle or similar, no?

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 03, 2023, 09:58:56 pm
content: Quote from: Someone on May 02, 2023, 10:54:15 pmIts normal human physiology. The graph mostly just shifts up for athletes, taper off rate at the low end should be similar.This one looks like it goes from about 160W to 130W from 100 to 200min:https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Reproduced-from-NASA-experimental-results-on-sustained-maximum-power-for-one-person_fig3_257434421Quote

author: switchabl
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 03, 2023, 11:38:23 pm
content: Quote from: thm_w on May 03, 2023, 09:58:56 pmThis is probably (mostly) true. However there is also a big mental component and that may explain some of the variation in the available data. To put it bluntly, in my experience, riding for 1+ hours "to exhaustion" is bloody hard and not particularly fun, less so on an ergometer, staring at a wall. Most serious athletes will be able put in a more or less consistent effort that gets close to their physiological limits. Many non-athletes will have no idea what they are physiologically capable of and may stop way short of it because they "feel" exhausted. Pointing a gun at them to provide the necessary motivation is generally frowned upon by ethics boards.For longer periods, fueling becomes increasingly important, so results will vary more depending on carbohydrate intake during (and prior to) the test.So IMHO the question "what power can an average person sustain for X minutes/hours" is not so easy to answer (and may not even be particularly well defined). And I agree that for practical considerations the more interesting one is probably what speeds theyactuallyride at.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 03, 2023, 11:39:23 pm
content: Quote from: thm_w on May 03, 2023, 09:58:56 pmThat is one biological system that levels off, and you link to the limited version of the data I already posted (but you seem to have not looked at so I'll inline it here...)National records and international competitions show a steady drop in the achievable sustained power. There is no steady state asymptote.

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 04, 2023, 01:33:34 am
content: Quote from: switchabl on May 03, 2023, 11:38:23 pmYeah true.Here is one listing 12-26km/h but does include a few ebikes as well as uphill/downhill sections:https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31560212/Sweden, but the limit is 25km/h so doesn't tell you much about higher speeds:Quotehttps://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0001457521005418