Atten 937B - ESD Safe! - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: icon
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2012, 07:17:01 pm
content: HiNot a full review (and who cares anyway? It's just another clone...), but just a few photos for amusement. I took delivery of this soldering iron today, so in the spirit of Dave J, I took it apart. Just as well I did - the earth lead which should have been soldered to the PCB had become detached. I've included a few photos below. It seems odd that they should have gone to the trouble of fitting a power connector, and then soldered the earth directly to the board. Or not, as the case may be. There's also a missing component labelled 'RE'. Not sure what that's about. There's some very ham-fisted efforts to beef up some of the traces with solder. The effect is of a pigeon with a bowel disorder.The only clever bits are a BT136 triac, LM358 dual op-amp and 2N3906 transistor. All bleeding edge stuff. The good news is that I could replace every component on the board with the contents of my junk box. On the other hand I couldn't buy the hardware for the price.What a shame the Hakko fx-888 isn't a sensible price in the UK. I couldn't justify four times the price of this Atten for my use.CheersJohn(Edited to correct the product name - it's a 93*7*B. What a numbskull.)

author: T4P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 12, 2012, 09:24:35 am
content: Where did my post go ?It makes me feel like Atten thinks earth's not necessary on their stuff .Some of their 858D comes with the earth disconnected .

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 12, 2012, 10:30:37 am
content: Looks like the "standard" 2 opamps + PNP + triac controller a ton of other clones use too... nothing special about it. A schematic is floating around here if you want to know where RE connects across.

author: T4P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 12, 2012, 10:59:22 am
content: Quote from: amyk on April 12, 2012, 10:30:37 amThis is the original schem :https://www.eevblog.com/forum/product-reviews-photos-and-discussion/atten-936b-esd-safe!/?action=dlattach;attach=23152

author: saturation
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 12, 2012, 01:03:54 pm
content: Yet, this fellow raves for Atten:http://www.eham.net/reviews/detail/9839I think he is the same ham who is an RF engineer who has had good experiences with an Atten scope, already with its known flaws.Teardown:http://www.flickr.com/photos/37321226@N03/with/6084346297/I guess a bottom line, is testing its heating quality. Does it come close to an IPC station? If so, it would be worth buying and doing fix ups.

author: T4P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 12, 2012, 01:37:32 pm
content: Quote from: saturation on April 12, 2012, 01:03:54 pmAtten's motto : "1 less connection , 1 less problem ! "

author: icon
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 12, 2012, 09:43:23 pm
content: Well I had a proper play with it. I bought a 2mm chisel tip to replace the conical one supplied. I was soldering some fairly aged (oxidised) components, but it was quite nice to solder with - I've used a couple of different Antek irons to date. I did have to turn the wick up a fair bit, but no doubt I'll get to know what temperatures work. It does heat up pretty quickly, but I don't have any means of measuring the temperature. Memo to self; get a K-type thermocouple. Meanwhile, 60/40 solder was melting within 10deg of the right temperature.RegardsJohn

author: Lo_tse
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 13, 2012, 02:59:01 am
content: Quote from: icon on April 11, 2012, 07:17:01 pmMay I ask where did you buy this solder iron? I have been told by someone who are familiar with the Chinese market (an ethnic Chinese electrician works near Shenzen) that there are many many fake copies of popular brand products. It a little hard to believe that ATTEN or Ayoue coud not manufacture soldering equipments properly - they supply tens of thousands of soldering equipments to the local manufacturing industry. There are literally millions of workers making a living out of a soldering iron everyday in factories. If their equipments are not up to standard, they will lose their market share and fold in no time. The stuffs they made do not have to compete with Hakko but have to be of decent quality at the right price.I also have an ATTEN soldering station (969D) that I bought, with the help of a local, a year ago in China (a 220V/230V version) and it is working fine since day one. This station has a calibration feature which comes in real handy. Unfortunately, there is no 110/120V version.It is unfortnate that when we buy something off eBay or the Internet, there are no way to tell whether the item is genuine or a fake. A case in point - a friend of mine bought a vacuum tube amplifier made by Mingda off EBAY. Mingda is a highly reputable tube amp manufacturer in China and made good stuffs. To cut a long story short, the amp was a fake, a very good copy though. When you think some "made in China" brands are crap, be aware that you might be the victims of counterfeit products. From time to time, even the locals get caught - just check out some the threads posted in some Chinese DIY forums e.g. Crystalradio (you have to be able to read Chinese though). So buyers beware.Regards,

author: icon
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 13, 2012, 07:14:57 am
content: Quote from: Lo_tseHiI got it fromhttp://www.pcb-soldering.co.uk/. They do a fairly extensive range of Atten and Aoyue kit - this 937B is the cheapest thing they sell. Real or hooky? Who knows? I did send them an e-mail bringing it to their attention - I wasn't trying to screw anything out of them, I just thought they'd should know. I got an immediate response, profusely apologetic, saying they hadn't seen one with this fault before but they'd pass it back up the line. Who knows? In all other respects they were exemplary - prompt comms, prompt despatch, very quick delivery, goods well packed.Oh no, I looked at their website again - I quite fancy one of those...... no, I mustn't.RegardsJohn

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 13, 2012, 08:10:32 am
content: Quote from: Dave.S on April 12, 2012, 10:59:22 amThat's the Hakko schematic with the triac driver IC. The generic clone one is here:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/product-reviews-photos-and-discussion/hakko-936-(original-or-clone)/It would be interesting to see what the differences are between fake and real Atten products.

author: saturation
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 13, 2012, 04:02:34 pm
content: That's certainly food for thought, I'd never consider someone making counterfeit Atten and Ayoue.Quote from: Lo_tse on April 13, 2012, 02:59:01 am

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 13, 2012, 06:51:01 pm
content: Me neither. Are they cloning clones now? Wouldn't it just be easier to put the 'Hakko' name on it and charge more?Aren't intellectual property in China claims easier with a domestic plaintiff (eg. Atten) compared to a foreign one (Hakko)? I remember Rigol winning some sort of judgment against Atten.

author: T4P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 13, 2012, 10:56:15 pm
content: Quote from: alm on April 13, 2012, 06:51:01 pmI'll explain why .

author: Lo_tse
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 13, 2012, 11:16:09 pm
content: Quote from: alm on April 13, 2012, 06:51:01 pm@alm:Say if some crooks want to fake a Hakko, they have to "invest" more to build the fake that has to look "real" and then charge a price close to the real thing but cheaper. It cannot be too cheap because people would become suspicious. At higher price levels, people will be more careful and scruntize tightly before shelling out money. The market is therefore smaller.For cheap items, people tend to be more "complacent" since most people have the notion that it is not worth it to fake cheap stuffs. Not true. I can tell you a true incident - sometime ago, some crook in China produced some fake canned food (some kind of porridge) that were sold for only ~0.5 US$ per can (the price for the real one) at 50-60% of the original price i.e. 25 to 30 cents US. People were shocked when it was discovered and asked why waste time on these cheap stuffs. The truth is, the profit margin for these fake stuff is easily over 100%!! Where on earth can one get a margin like that in manufacturing industries, even Apple can't do that!!It is just sad. People will do anything for money - nothing is sacred.Regards,

author: saturation
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 15, 2012, 01:31:44 pm
content: One problem very unique to China are subcontractors or ghost shifts manufacturers: if USA company contracts China-B to make product XYZ, China-B then subcontracts manufacturing to China-E.China-E now has the entire design and even the company stencils for XYZ logos, and fulfills contract to China-B, but is not bound by confidentiality made by the USA company. China-E now illegally manufacturers XYZ and sells it on the grey market.In ghost shifts, China-B officially makes the order for USA company, but makes excess for themselves, with or without the management's approval.There are far many more ways to make good counterfeit.Without enforcing trade marks by Chinese law, the ghost market method will fill your world with counterfeit.Manufacturers in other industries have profit margins in the 1,000+%.Its kitschy and ill informed, but you get the gist.http://www.toptenz.net/top-10-biggest-price-markups.phpElectronics however, has enormous price pressure from competition in the consumer arena, but not so in niches like military, avionics, and health care where companies charge more.Quote from: Lo_tse on April 13, 2012, 11:16:09 pm

author: kripton2035
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 15, 2012, 02:01:45 pm
content: one simple thing would be to make china company make the productBUT inject the firmware of the product back in usa ...if the program is complex enought, the product without the firmware is useless ...

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 15, 2012, 02:22:38 pm
content: Quote from: kripton2035 on April 15, 2012, 02:01:45 pmYes - you give them firmware that only has sufficient functionality to test the hardware, and a bootloader to make it easy to reprogram the production firmware once it arrives.

author: saturation
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 15, 2012, 03:37:46 pm
content: Yes, I think this is done, except now it shifts some of labor back to the parent country, when it was cheaper to do all in China. Its cost effective not just for firmware, but to do final assembly of a product back in a more secure country or location. However, if the manufacturer is relatively secure, like Foxconn, it can still command full production locally.A strategy is to insure contractors never have the full product, but rather only parts that are at best, useless without the other parts so subassemblies couldn't be repurosed for counterfeit. Key components such as firmware, trade secret parts, formulas etc., where also added or manufactured in secure countries or areas.Now add transport costs, increasing costs of living in China, the net result, is that production is migrating away from China. In the USA, I've seen resurgence of local manufacturing in various sectors, but not consumer electronics.http://www.voanews.com/english/news/asia/east-pacific/Higher-Production-Costs-Shift-Chinese-Manufacturing-120275004.htmlQuote from: mikeselectricstuff on April 15, 2012, 02:22:38 pm

author: Bored@Work
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 15, 2012, 03:41:39 pm
content: Quote from: saturation on April 15, 2012, 01:31:44 pmI am missing printer ink in that list.

author: saturation
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 15, 2012, 03:48:15 pm
content: I think you mean the whole cartridge? Yes that's a rip off. Its like custom bladed razors, give the handle and test blade very cheap, then overcharge for 'blades'.That said, I refill my cartridges 2-3 times often more, usually at $4 per refill. Toner alone is very cheap and I barely print today, I am still using an original cartridge shipped by the maker refilled 2x in 10 years.Quote from: BoredAtWork on April 15, 2012, 03:41:39 pm

author: Bored@Work
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 15, 2012, 04:02:24 pm
content: Quote from: saturation on April 15, 2012, 03:48:15 pmYes, original from the printer manufacturer.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 15, 2012, 04:30:58 pm
content: And I would guess it was originally half filled as a "starter" cartridge. At work I have them refilled by a reputable refiller ( and they do a great job as well, better than new in many cases) and some have been refilled 30 or more times, and are still good, though they have had replacement drums installed as the originals started streaking. Some are just not refillable, but for those that are, they are a third of the cost per refill.

author: Lo_tse
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 16, 2012, 01:05:53 am
content: Quote from: saturation on April 15, 2012, 01:31:44 pm

author: Bored@Work
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 16, 2012, 09:08:05 am
content: Quote from: Lo_tse on April 16, 2012, 01:05:53 amIt is hard to imagine that ghost shifts work without the knowledge of the boss. There is some logistics involved. Someone needs to have the keys, the lights and machinery needs to be turned on, the security guards need to be in the known. Staff and stuff needs to be brought in and out of the premises. Machine operating hours wouldn't match up, bills for water and electricity wouldn't match up. Material usage wouldn't match up. Any boss should be able to figure out that something is going on. Any late working boss should be able to see what is going on. The boss has at least to look the other way. More likely he is getting his share or is even organising the ghost shifts.

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2012, 09:10:05 am
content: Quote from: BoredAtWork on April 16, 2012, 09:08:05 amHe could be referring to the other boss, the original company who contracted out the manufacturing.

author: saturation
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2012, 11:30:22 am
content: Very likely management or parts of them are involved. But there are so many ways to steal IP, the only way to protect IP is Chinese law and enforcement. In older days, recall many factories are hundreds or thousands of workers sitting on tables passing assembly from one person to the next. They may not have the controls to track parts usage, or product, as tightly as an automated factory. Managers or line workers can pull boards from the line here and there, assemble them later somewhere for a full product. They could even take QC rejects that are set for scrap or reclamation, repair them and sell them instead.Decades ago, a friend of mine worked for a semiconductor factory that had such controls, I asked her I could have a few of their MOSFETS. I thought I would get 1 or 2, instead I got a bucket full. She just pulled it off the line and gave it to me.Quote from: BoredAtWork on April 16, 2012, 09:08:05 am