PCBMAIN, PCB supplier in China - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: PCBMAIN
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: March 20, 2012, 03:18:50 am
content: Hi All,Good day!We supply quick-turn prototyping and small to medium volume PCBs, attractive prices without compromising of quality.Please visitwww.pcbmain.comor contact me at sales@pcbmain.com for quotation.Thanks.

author: sacherjj
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 20, 2012, 03:47:56 am
content: I'd love to be able to quote without having to register. Guess I won't bother.

author: PCBMAIN
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: March 20, 2012, 04:39:45 am
content: Hi Sacherjj , then you could send email to sales@pcbmain.com, sales will supply quick quote also, thank you.

author: kaz911
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 20, 2012, 04:50:17 am
content: Dear PCBMAIN,please understand most people does not want to write you or create an account with you before we have estimates of your cost for different types of boards. If your prices are bad - you have wasted our precious time.I would suggest you show some sample prices on different board types (single / dual / quad layer) with SMD / Through hole in different sizes - so potential clients have an idea of your price range.And it is very polite to give special offers to the users of EEVBlog when you post "advertising" in this forum. :-)Then you might get some potential customers.

author: sonicj
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 20, 2012, 05:01:04 am
content: Quote from: PCBMAIN on March 20, 2012, 04:39:45 amthats just as much of a pain in the a$$ as registering...if one-off and low run production is a service you regularly offer, just list prices a few common board sizes with the typical specs so customers can get a feel for your pricing without the hassle of registering or contacting an annoying salesman.-sj

author: PCBMAIN
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: March 20, 2012, 06:09:49 am
content: I see it, and I've feedback your suggestions to our company and will update our website setting to quote without registering.I will be back to inform when this setting finished. Thanks all of you.

author: chimera_786
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 27, 2012, 06:27:57 am
content: This is ridicluous!! Honestly, I dont know why PCB manufacturers charge "one time tooling cost" to customers??Its not like majority of the ppl here are looking for big batches of PCBs.. they are just looking for a few pieces. And honestly, if I was willing to pay for tooling cost.. then I for sure would be going to be the big guns of the PCB manufacturers.. not PCBMAIN (no offense intended)For instance, itead studio has very good prices..ex: 10 pieces for 50mm by 50mm double sided FR4 1.6mm for $14!!!--including shipping!! Sure they're prone to a few errors here and there, but just make sure you dont design something that will push their capabilities (very small pitched components, extremely thin traces etc..)I just dont get it..PCBMAIN: forget the tooling cost, be willing to work with certain shapes/scoring/V-grooving.. I can assure you.. you will get so much business.. you wont know how meet the demand!!back me up here people!!

author: T4P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 27, 2012, 06:43:59 am
content: Quote from: chimera_786 on March 27, 2012, 06:27:57 amYESNah , i am just joking .Tooling costs , doesn't feel neccesary to people like you , but companies which DO not impose such costs are just hiding the costs .After all , if they don't who will ? Their government ?

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 27, 2012, 08:32:03 am
content: Quote from: chimera_786 on March 27, 2012, 06:27:57 amIt's because there IS extra effort and cost in setting up your board to have it manufactured the first time (work and cost that is not required the 2nd time around).It was virtually unheard of maybe 10 years for a PCB manufacturer not to charge for NRE tooling.Only in recent times and with the "race to the bottom" and the shared panel system have some PCB manufacturers started to absorb the tooling charge.Companies like itead studios are offering a rock bottom business model, and not everyone is going to follow that route.PCBcart for example, probably the most well known and successful low cost chinese PCB manufacturer have always charged tooling.Dave.

author: Rufus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 27, 2012, 11:30:53 am
content: Quote from: chimera_786 on March 27, 2012, 06:27:57 amBecause there is a one time cost for tooling and processing and to stay in business prices have to be based on costs.Suppliers might choose to hide it by spreading it across the quantity of boards you order but you still pay it and if you order a second batch of the same board you will pay it twice.It is the same with catalogue component suppliers with no minimum orders and free delivery. There is a one time processing and delivery cost which they choose to spread across all orders. You order 10 resistors and pay less than it costs to deliver them, you order 10 thousand resistors and pay a price which contributes to all the small orders they lost money on. They have sometimes silly per item quantity discounts which means it can be cheaper to buy 25 chips and throw away 10 than it is to buy 15.I am not going to complain about a supplier who uses a more complicated pricing scheme to more accurately reflect their costs, I would prefer them to.

author: Short Circuit
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 27, 2012, 11:51:20 am
content: Quote from: chimera_786 on March 27, 2012, 06:27:57 amBS. If you want cheap PCB's stick with Itead and the like, and accept long delivery and reduced tech capabilities. Hobbyists with little or no money and too much time to whine or ask 1001 questions are only business if the business model is adjusted to it, like the pooling services have done.

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 27, 2012, 12:14:11 pm
content: Also, any decent pcb house will thoroughly check your pcb for problems and things that can't be manufactured.Some of it is scripted (checking hole sizes etc) but there's always going to be human eyeballs looking for potential issues, which takes time.Especially if they have to email you questions and get updated files.Once they have accepted the board as 'ok' they never have to do that stage again when you order more board.So it make sense for there to be extra charge for the initial run.

author: chimera_786
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 27, 2012, 05:42:52 pm
content: Quote from: Short Circuit on March 27, 2012, 11:51:20 amSure, there is a lead time for itead studio and like, however, I dont end up paying 'one time tooling cost' and I get a few prototypes to work off till I fix my design.Think about it, you want to prototype something...and you dont want a high price for small quantity becaz there is chance that you are going to revise your design based on the prototype.So, in that case, one should consider cheaper alternatives till they are sure of the design and if they work for a company or just have a lot of resources.. then go nuts paying for a 1000 pcbs + the tooling costs.BTW..if your going to working with stuff that places like iTead Studio cannot work with..i.e. extremely small pitch components, very fine traces, 6 layers boards etc.. then you really dont have a choice in the matter.. you wont be able to even hand solder any of the very small packages.. so your gonna have to go to PCB manufacturing giants.. and pay their ludicrous costs.. just so that you can prototype something up (a few pieces)And about the business model..thats not my concern as how the company structures it. IF THE END RESULT IS CHEAP ON A CONSUMER, THEN ITS THE CORRECT STRUCTUREAnyways..I know your gonna argue your point till the cows come home. So, to each his own cup of tea!-Best

author: metalphreak
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 27, 2012, 06:16:21 pm
content: Itead/Seeed relies on unused board capacity on existing orders. Someone, somewhere is paying for the tooling cost, just not youOtherwise, with so many people pooled on one board (of which they make 10-12 copies) the tooling cost is split across multiple orders.Say they can fit 30 5x5cm boards on a single panel. Instead of making one panel with 3 customer designs on it (with tooling costs for that one panel), they put 30 designs on it, and make 10 panels (with just the one tooling cost). There's only 1 tooling cost instead of 10! This is why you can't do multiple designs

author: Rufus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 27, 2012, 06:45:03 pm
content: Quote from: chimera_786 on March 27, 2012, 05:42:52 pmYep, itead put your design under their pillow and a PCB fairy comes along each night and leaves some dollars to cover their one time tooling costs....

author: chimera_786
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 27, 2012, 07:45:02 pm
content: PEOPLE of the EEV FORUM:I amNOTsaying that there isNO TOOLING COST.Someone somewhere is paying for the tooling or the tooling cost is being spread across several designs.. what ever the circumstance.. the end result is cheaper!Henceforth, the idea of having prototypes built up from iTead studio or similiar is a good one. When you are ready to have ur pcb mass manufactured, you then have the option of choosing which PCB manufacturer to go to.. regardless of the tooling cost.. But till you reach that stage, shouldnt u use the cheaper alternative..save your self some money??Comprende?

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2012, 01:25:31 am
content: I haven't looked into how this particular PCB vendor does things but , here is my 2 cents on 'Tooling costs' : (and this is going to 'burst the bubble' for a lot of people)Tooling costs are a thing of the past, especially for proto-runs. Why ?- Photoplot is gone. Any PCB maker in the proto / quick turn business worth his salt (and running a sustainable business model anno 2012 ) is doing LDI. No more cost for plots , no more climate controlled storage for plots. We image directly to photoresist using a Laser Direct Imager. You can mix and match designs one one panel. Designs swap is a simple file swap. Done. No chemicals , no films. In the time you make a single photoplot ( a double sided board needs 6 ... 2 copper, 2 soldermask 2 silkscreens ) you expose one panel. So you can run 6 full panels in the same time it would have cost you to make just the films (we're not even counting the making of the 4 silkscreens from the films) ... 6 panels, giving a panel is normally 24 inch by 18 (smaller ones are 12x18)... That's a lot of boards ! Fixed cost per panel , fixed time , ZERO consumables.- Soldermask and text silkscreens are gone. Everybody uses LPI for soldermask (Liquid Photomask Insulation). Spray it on , expose it in the LDI machine to polymerize it ,wash. done. For 'silkscreen' ( a misnomer.. silkscreen is the stencil used to print the ink. What we commonly call 'silkscreen' is the board text layer. It holds the component outplines , text and designators ) they use an inkjet-like machine that simple prints the white, yellow, pink, whatever, ink directly on the board. Bake it to cure it. Done. Fixed cost, fixed time. ZERO consumables-electrical test: No more bed-of nails test-jigs ( besides with doubles sided SMD this is dramatic ) . We all do flying-probe. A modern flying probe has 4 heads per side and does 20 or more checks a second. So : no tooling costs here. Put panel in the machine , barcode scanner reads panel Id , load correct file and off we go. Fixed time Fixed cost. ZERO consumables- File import and inspection. This is a fully automated process , or it can be. If the PCB maker provides a design template for your CAD package (and many do) it is up to THE DESIGNER (YOU) to make sure it passes final DRC. Since the criteria were set by the pcb maker the board will be compatible with the production process. You don't even need incoming file inspection. Dump the zip file to a dropbox , the incoming server grabs it , assigns a project order , verifies it was paid through paypal or whatever , unzips it and sends the files to the importer. All 'real' pcb makers use Valor , Ucam or Mania these days. ( eye-roll mode if they are still fooling around with 'toys' like cam350 for their front-end. run away from those) These tools are so advanced they automatically allign gerber and drill. Even if , during export , you got the drill scaling or offset wrong these tools will figure it out. If you provide RS274-X and NC-Drill (commonly called Excellon but actually, a subset of G-code) you are set. If your cad software cannot do RS274X / Excellon or ODB++ : time to change to something that is up-to-date with the rest of the world. Even free tools like Kicad and cheapo's like Eagle , Diptrace and others have this part nailed down. If you still design your pcb's with pen and paper. sorry, out of luck. But, as a pcb maker, we're not catering to the pen-and-paper audience anyway...So, the only cost remaining is the manual labour in handling the panels and moving them from machine to machine. this is a fixed cost per panel . It doesn't matter what is on the panel . You can pre-calculate this and make it part of the price per square inch of the board. The more boards , larger area the lower this cost gradient becomes. For small runs ( 1 to 10 boards ) the price can be preset fixed per square inch. the only cost-driver is the copper geometry. Anytihng up to 8 mils track/gap is uniform fixed priced. Drop to 6 mils track and gap and add 10%. Drop to 4 mils : add 50%. Drop to 3 mils : double. Anything beyond that .. let's talk. ( it won't be china anymore... This is very specialistic technology. Iv'e done RF flip chip boards running in the 8GHz band... 2.1 mil track with 2.3 mil gap controlled impedance, tuned lengths, plasma etched, laser drilled on exotic substrates. Such proto's cost 1000$ or more. )To be complete : the only remaining factor in this business model that pumps up the cost is 1) the number of drill strikes ( that's why itead and others refuse long lines of drill holes to break boards apart. you are eating int heir bottom line. the drills are expensive (tungsten carbide) ) 2) odd elements such as slotted holes , inside cutout milling , V-scoring and the likes. These require MANUAL intervention on the incoming data to set it up in their automatic flow. Since they don't charge 'tooling costs' and use the 'fixed price per square inch' model this eats against their bottom line. So : they only do outside contour milling. They are ok if you 'panelize' but they will mull to your 'panel' contour and will not separate the elements inside your panelization. Simply because it costs them manual intervention by a CAM engineer... So, by setting some rules (track/gap/drill / drillstrikes / milling / preprocessing limits and restrictions) they have shaved all 'variable' costs which used to be called 'tooling costs'. gone. Over .Byebye. As far as the production goes all the consumables are gone as well. No films , no stencils, no testjigs, and they even pinch on the flying probe tester. They will only test 5 boards, the rest are 'as-is'.This is why the boardhouses that the 'poolers' like iteadstudio, seeedstudio and others, use can offer these low prices. They have this 'no-touch' approach and limit you to 'coarse technologies' ( 8 mil track/gap 16 mil drill) . It is up to the designer to meet the criteria. File comes in , goes to importer. if the importer barfs -> back to designer with statement 'you do not meet requirements. please fix'. If the importer passes, it is 'hands off' from now on. Everytinhg is fixed cost irrespective of what is on the panel . Even the panelisation of different projects on a panel is automatic in tools like Mania or Valor. Everyting in the pipe can be precalculated to x amount per square inch. The only variable factor per project is shipping cost and method.Any 'slightly better than a garagebox' pcb shop in china has an LDI these days. They run high enough volumes. It's the smaller shops in the 'expensive' countries that can't keep up. Either invest in the machine and recup it in volume and time , or specialize in 'crazy technology'. For anything else you will be too expensive.So, in todays age , any 'quick-turn / prototyping' company charging 'tooling costs' is either:- not up to speed technology wise (no LDI / LPI / INKJET) and will cease to exist very quickly because they can no longer compete against the far-east prototyping companies that have these machines.- plainly lying about 'photoplot' and other costs so they can recup the investment of the machines. Stay away from such outfits. They are struggling for survival , have the wrong business model and want you to pay for their mistakes in innovation. ( i know this sounds very harsh , but it is the reality of things. I don't like it either that the local shops are disappearing but it is the nature of things. Innovate , evolve or go extinct. )LDI and LPI are game changers and have made a tremendous inrush in the last 5 years. If, as a quickturn / prototpye supplier, you are not already on the bandwagon you are a dinosaur and you will, sadly, go the same way of those big lizards.As Dave said : it is a race to the bottom. A bottom where you have shaved all possible costs, done the one time investment of LDI/LPI and now recup this cost over the volume in panels you run. What is on the panels is irrelevant. It's like printing books. 200 years ago you had to hand carve the printing plate. 100 years ago you had to hand assemble line by line, using lead lettersets, the printing block. 50 years ago came photosetters that made the printing plates opto-chemically. today ? We spray soy-ink directly to paper at full speed. You make money off volume. The same goes with PCB's.Note : i am talking quick turn, low volume, low technology prototypes business model.There are other business models :For massive runs photoplotting and silkscreen is still in use because the one-time cost there is divided over so many boards it is much cheaper and faster than LDI (the time spent on the LDI is much longer than printing with a silkscreen, so you save money because you save time) . Companies like Tripod and Topsearch in Taiwan and china produce staggering amounts of boards. I have products running that requires almost 1 million PCB's per DAY.. ( 4 layer , 32 mil thick , 3.5 mil track/gap 8 mil mechanical drill). Board is complex shape and roughly 4 inches by 2. That is yet another game.... Those guys actually need to make multiple silkscreens / films per day for the same project, as they wear them out... They don't use plastic foil but quartz glass with metal sputtered on it as the 'mask'. More durable.This is the state of this proto/quickturn/low tech industry today. All the better for the hobbyist who now has access to cheap , good quality, pcb's in relatively short time ( Itead is at 9 days now if you opt for FEDEX shipping ) I have run lots of projects with these guys. works fine every time. If i need 'exotic things' i have to stay on-shore with companies like Sierra Proto Express , Gorilla Circuits, APCT and many others. Sierra is really good. The prices is spot on. they charge per panel , no tooling costs ( since there are none. they are an ldi / lpi / laser drill shop ) and they can do absolute crazy boards rigid-flex-rigid constructions , foldable boards , enepig of palladium plated on exotic materials such as duroid , rogers. Warped or curved boards, controlled depth drilling , plugged , plated via in pad. Staggered and stacked via's and other crazy technologies you probably haven't even heard of or know that are possible. I have seen bio-compatible boards from them that are made to be implanted in people's spinal column , with flexible fingers carrying electrodes made to interface with nerve endings... we are talking 75 micron traces ... absolute crazy stuff requiring expensive equipment and tons of manual labor. And that too is a viable business model. Simply not one for the hobbyist market.... yet

author: amspire
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2012, 01:51:13 am
content: Everything you have argued is valid, but I think you have missed the point that companies actually want to make profits. Small quantity production runs are always a massive pain, and there will be time wasted informing customers on problems in their Gerber files, and handling complaints from customers who don't like the way their boards turned out.So they set a extra cost for prototyping that works for them financially. If you do not like it, go elsewhere.Using your arguments, you could say there is no reason that an IPhone should cost any more then $200, and there is no excuse for the artificial price differential between 32GByte devices and 64GByte devices.But strangely enough, Apple likes making lots of money. PCBMain probably does as well.Richard.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2012, 02:18:13 am
content: Quote from: amspire on April 04, 2012, 01:51:13 amI have not missed the profit point.The profit making, in the quick turn , low tech , low volume, happens in 'VOLUME of PROJECTS'. Every second your fab is NOT running a panel and your personell and machines are sitting idle because you have nothing to do, eats your profit.QuoteExactly. They eliminated the 'unkowns'. Here is the 'tech limit', fit within these constraints and we'll be happy to run it for you. We make money, you have low price. Both parties happy.Can't fit our criteria : please go somewhere else. Thank you.QuoteAbsolutely correct. But you look at it from the wrong perspective.. An iPhone costs 140$ in parts. The rest is profit for APPLE and the writeoff of their design and engineering costs.If i have a bare board made, I have done the engineering ( that is MY time and cost) i only procure the production of the bare board. Just like APPLE buys a bare board.Besides , that 'flash' thing. Increase from 16 to 32 Gbyte : add 100$Increase from 32 to 64 : add 100$.So 16 gbyte extra is 100$. Add 32 more and it is still 100$... what does that tell you ? the second flash is half the price per GB than the first ? No ! they calculated their overall phone distribution ( marketing reseaerch ) and found that most people can be tempted to shell out for upgrade 1. Take lots of profit there. The ones that do the full shebang are much less in number. take less profit there, otherwise the number would be staggering low ( 100$ for the first upgrade .. 200$ for the second.. nobody would do that ) So you you figure out exactly how much you claim in what partition and how many people you expect to coax into buying the upgrade. That flash chip doesn't cost 4 dollars... And its the same footprint so to place part a or part b is the same amount of production cost. It's all a massive numbers game and it follows the law of diminishing returns.I work in a very cost sensitive industry where mass volume is the norm. Every penny is twisted 500 times before it it is still decided NOT to spend it... If you produce 1 million parts a day ... ( in my case harddisks) every fraction of a penny counts.QuoteNo , because PCBMain would be designing phones and marketing them, not producing components for phones. Different business. Different busines model.PCBmain will try to make a lot of money , by tweaking their capabilities and flow so that it is a cheap as possible for them, and, by placing their customer price point in a position their fabs are always full. And, if they are an honest company, and they use LDI/LPI and fixed flow they will not charge tooling costs. ( or it will be a 20$ fee to set-up your project ) . If they still charge for photoplotting at 100$ a layer , they have no viable business model , or they are lying, because the other PCB sharks will eat them for lunch. You can't do 100$ a layer setup cost , like you did in 1980,anno 2012... there's too many others in the market that don't have that cost and they're all gunning for your business.Me, as a person who requires a few boards for my hobby (or professionally) that fit PCBwing-pang-wong.. go for it.. the cheapest will do , thank you.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2012, 02:49:28 am
content: I just checked out PCBmain and another one PCBcore.They do flex and flex/rigids. that means they HAVE LDI/LPI equipment in house. They also have laser drill in house.Their startup cost is reasonable, but on the high side for low-tech boards.The 'tooling' costs are 80$. That is a bit much if you only need 1 low-tech (8 mil track/gap 16 mil drill with a 12 mil annular ring) board ( actually 5 boards is the minimum order )But, if you have 20 boards made the board cost goes to snot... i did a testrun 4 inch by 4 inch. 5 boards : 10$ a pop. 20 boards : 4$ a pop... add 80/20 and one pcb is 10$... that is cheap for double sided top and bottom solder and silkscreen. i can't have that made anywhere in the Us at that price... not in 8 days ..Pump it to 50 boards and you have a 4.5 dollar board ... ( 3.13 per piece + 80/50 ). in 8 days ... 12 days gets you under 4$ a board ...again, if you need only 1 or two you will need to buy 5 and then you have a relatively high 'tooling cost' and you will be better of with pooling services like iteadstudio.if you need 20 or 50 ... things change VERY quickly... AND you have far more technology within your grasp with PCBmain...Different business model , different audience.Of course itead can;t be beat .. 35$ for the same project will get me 8 boards ... compared to 135$ with pcbmain for 5.On the other hand : pump up the volume. Let's say 75 boards.. would be roughly 350$ with itead. but only 290 with PCBmain.different business model , different audience. They clearly shoot for the larger quantities and they have a higher write-off cost because they also do flex boards.