SmartScope from LabNation versus a real bench oscilloscope - Rigol wins easily  - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: pascal_sweden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2016, 08:12:09 pm
content: ============================================================================Hereby, a separate thread about the SmartScope from LabNation, to share my thoughts about this device, and to hear feedback from other people.============================================================================1 - Real value of a touch-screen interface: LabNation keeps saying that the touch-screen experience is so unique and so much better. But on what basis? A touch-screen interface is nice to have for media, or for navigation, but it will never replace the nice controls on a digital storage bench oscilloscope. My impression is that there is a disconnect between the assumptions from LabNation and the actual preferences and expectations from end users, industry, schools and universities.2 - Bad learning experience for target group: LabNation says that their focus is students and electronic hobbyists. But why on Earth, would you want that students and electronic hobbyists leave the comfort of a real bench oscilloscope, and make their experience limited to a touch-screen interface, that is not used anywhere in the industry up to today. Talking about bad learning experience ...3 - Stability and performance issues in the SmartScope: Several people have reported stability and performance issues. According to some users, the software freezes and crashes randomly, and the performance is very slow in some measurement scenarios.4 - Tricky installation: Apparently iOS support only works after a jail-break of your Apple tablet device.Not all people (typical Apple users) will know how to do this, and even if they know how to do it, many people want to keep their tablet device in the factory configuration, to avoid that the warranty is voided. Who wants to sacrifice the warranty on a premium high-end device in order to use a low-end device?5 - The math functions are very limited: The only math function that is available is: A+B ... really???This is very low in comparison with the Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope, which comes with over 16 math functions.6 - Multiple signals without math options: In the current software version you can combine several SmartScopes together for visualizing multiple signals, but what is the point of that, if the only math function that is available is A+B? Please enlighten me on this!7 - Some features are below today's expectations or are simply missing: We have not talked yet about waveform update rate and intensity grading. The waveform update rate is limited to 200 waveforms/s, while the industry standard is at least 30.000 waveforms/s these days. There is no intensity grading at all in the SmartScope (0 levels), while the industry standard is at least 64 intensity grading levels these days. Even in future software versions, there is no way, that the SmartScope is ever going to reach a decent waveform update rate on the tablet device (impossible without dedicated hardware), and any decent intensity grading implementation, will likely eat up too much CPU, and will further slow down the software.8 - Rigol is the Chinese Toyota of oscilloscopes: The Rigol DS1054Z is the "most bang for buck" digital storage bench oscilloscope on the market today. It is very hard, and almost impossible, to beat the Rigol oscilloscope. It should be said that if you buy 2 SmartScopes to have 4 channels, you end up spending more money than if you would buy a Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope up front, which has a much higher bandwidth, a much higher sample rate, a bigger memory, a much higher waveform update rate, and multiple intensity grading levels!=================================================================Taking into account all of the above, I fail to understand where to position the SmartScope=================================================================1 - Established players on the market: There are already, for many years, well-established players in the cheap USB scope segment, such as Owon, Hantek, and more recently SainSmart, that offer USB scopes, which are much cheaper (factor 2-3), which have better specs, and that come with much more advanced software (factor 5-10) such as automotive test software, etc.2 - Real bench oscilloscope is cheaper and better: You can get a full-blown 4-channel bench oscilloscope for only 170 USD more (400 USD). You would need to buy 2 SmartScopes to get 4 channels in total (2x 230 USD), and you still need to add the price of a tablet device next to the SmartScope (add an extra 250-500 USD). This brings the total price up to at least 710 USD (with a tablet device) or 460 USD (without a tablet device), which confirms that the real bench oscilloscope option is cheaper if you need 4 channels in total (400 USD). Having 2 extra channels, real rotary controls and pushable knobs, and much better performance and stability, weighs far more up to a basic touch-screen interface, only 2 channels, and all the other known limitations. Note that LabNation started designing the SmartScope after the Rigol DS1054Z already existed on the market. So one can question if they did any market studies, and why they wanted to re-invent the wheel?3 - Too expensive for what you get: The feature set of the SmartScope is not as good as the SainSmart DDS140 USB scope in several areas (lower bandwidth, lower sample rate, limited or no input protection, more limited extension options), while the SmartScope is much more expensive (230 USD) than the SainSmart DDS140 USB scope (85 USD). We are talking here about a factor of 2,7 ... really???=========================================================================Let's compare two specific options with each other: SmartScope from LabNation versus Rigol DS1054Z===========================================================================================================================Option 1: 2 SmartScopes and an extra tablet device to get 4 channels==================================================2+2 channels (2 SmartScopes needed), max. 30 MHz bandwidth, max. 100 MS/s sample rate per channel,max. 4 Mpoints memory per channelNot a real analog front-end (toy allure), very basic input protection, very basic amplifier, very basic triggerWaveform update rate of only 200 waveforms/sNo multi-level intensity grading display (0 levels)Math options (only 1 math option: A+B)Zero controls, very basic softwareNo support for LXI, NI-VISA, GPIB, TCP/IPNo calibration certificateVery small company. No established user base at all (how many in total? 100, 200, 500?)Very expensive: (2x 230 USD) + at least 250 USD = at least 710 USD or 460 USD (without tablet device)=============================================================Option 2: Full-blown Rigol DS1054Z digital storage bench oscilloscope with 4 channels=============================================================4 channels, up to 100 MHz bandwidth (> 3 times higher), up to 1 GS/s sample rate (2,5-10 times higher),24 Mpoints memory in total (3-6 times higher)Analog front-end (A-brand scope allure), good input protection, real analog amplifier, advanced triggerWaveform update rate of up to 30.000 waveforms/s (150 times higher)Multi-level intensity grading display (64 levels)Math options (16 math options and more: A+B, A-B, A×B, A/B, FFT, &&, ||, ^, !, intg, diff, sqrt, lg, ln, exp, abs)Many controls (rotary controls, pushable knobs), advanced softwareSupport for LXI, NI-VISA, GPIB, TCP/IPCalibration certificateInternational company (China, Germany, US). Huge established user base (> hundreds of thousands)Much cheaper: 400 USD (All-in price)

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2016, 08:30:53 pm
content: Thanks Pascal.Ouch, I see what you mean, the spec doesn't look that bad for a low cost USB scope until you find out it's $230. I suppose one that works under Linux and Android might have its attractions for some but it's dangerously close to bench scope territory.

author: Dielectric
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2016, 09:58:56 pm
content: Have you downloaded the PC software? I did, and certainly find a lot more than A+B in the math toolbox. Free math is interesting, you can add/subtract/scale the channels together, or another math channel, or whatever. I think that's pretty neat. It's got an FFT mode, which is also math...I like the cursor managment, relatively easy to poke in and check values.The front end specs aren't super spiffy, and I'm not sure I like losing an analog channel when you drop into mixed-signal mode, but other than that I actually thought about buying one. Still am, because I find having even a small USB scope is better than not having it. I also kinda like the Saleae Logic-Pro but probably only because I have an older logic and use the analyzer software fairly regularly.I also have and like a GW Instek GDS-2204E so I probably shouldn't even be here.

author: pascal_sweden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2016, 07:06:31 am
content: I added a detailed comparison, to make my points more clear!

author: Dielectric
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2016, 03:14:05 pm
content: That's just a weird comparison, Pascal. I can't fit a Rigol in my backpack along with everything else, plus it takes AC power in the nominal configuration. They serve two different applications in my mind. In reality I'd want both units, and in fact I do have both bench scopes and USB scopes and use both regularly. I'm not sure why you are trying to make this thing fit into a feature-parity with a DS1054Z. It's trying to weld two of my Ford sedans together to make a Viper.Triggering doesn't look too bad:http://wiki.lab-nation.com/index.php/Advanced_triggering_optionshttp://wiki.lab-nation.com/index.php/Logic_Analyzer_functionality#TriggeringAlso you're completely wrong on the math functions for the SmartScope. Add, subtract, abs, avg, multiply, divide, mod, arb scale and offset of real channels and other math channels. If that's not good enough, make it yourself, smartypants:http://wiki.lab-nation.com/index.php/Creating_your_own_Operator

author: karoru
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2016, 04:14:21 pm
content: I find it hard to treat seriously device that claims "Channels sampled at 100 MHz/s each" right on their front page.

author: pascal_sweden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2016, 10:34:36 pm
content: =================================Let me explain my perfectly valid comparison=================================1) LabNation indicated that the SmartScope is meant for students, to setup a lab at home.They explicitly said that it is the best scope option currently available on the market for students that want to setup a lab at home.2) LabNation indicated that the SmartScope does not have floating inputs, so it's not meant for floating measurements outside of a lab environment.The majority of the battery powered portable oscilloscopes do have floating inputs, to make floating measurements outside of a lab environment. Those scopes can be called portable oscilloscopes.Even if you use the SmartScope with a tablet device, and nothing else is connected, it's not going to replace the portable oscilloscope!3) LabNation indicated that they don't position it as a portable oscilloscope. Their main selling point is a simple to use touch-screen interface for students.They claim that students don't like knobs, and prefer a touch-screen so much better. But this claim is a pure assumption in my opinion. Many students have used both analog scopes and digital scopes in their university labs over the years, and are used to knobs. In fact most students like real controls.4) Rigol is very popular among students. If the target group is students, Rigol has to be in the comparison list by definition.======================Regarding the math functions======================Are you sure that these are available for the tablet application as well, and not only for the PC software?=========================================================Let's say you only want to have a comparison with another USB scope anyhow=========================================================I did compare it with Owon, Hantek and SainSmart ... and as indicated all of these competitor alternatives are much cheaper, and all have a better feature set!Actually I missed out on the Analog Discovery. That's probably an even better alternative!If you put the Analog Discovery next to the SmartScope from LabNation ... then the Analog Discovery wins miles ahead ... their software is a factor 100-200x more advanced than the software from LabNation.==============Overall conclusion==============If the scope is meant for home use, and if it doesn't have floating inputs, there is no reason why it can't be compared with the Rigol DS1054Z digital storage bench oscilloscopeBuy the Rigol DS1054Z if you can afford the bench space, and want to build up real scope experience,with rotary controls and pushable knobs, which is going to be very valuable in your job later on after you graduate. Go for the Analog Discovery if you have limited bench space, and want to take it with you on a trip.But forget about the SmartScope. And don't look back! WOTAM, POJ

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2016, 10:51:31 pm
content: Quote from: pascal_sweden on July 14, 2016, 10:34:36 pmNo, they don't! Only a few battery powered handheld oscilloscopes have floating inputs. It is not a default feature and you often have to look at the specifications very carefully to find out if a hand held scope really has floating inputs or not.

author: pascal_sweden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2016, 10:59:21 pm
content: I am not talking about separate ground connection.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2016, 11:09:52 pm
content: Quote from: pascal_sweden on July 14, 2016, 10:59:21 pmNo seperate ground connection for each input = no floating inputs = no safety. Think about other metal parts which may be exposed or a connection to ground through a mains adapter!

author: pascal_sweden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2016, 07:19:40 am
content: ===========================================================Maybe I should explain it from a different perspective, to make my point more clear===========================================================1) The environments where floating measurements are to be made, are typically harsh environments where there is no bench space available at all. These environments impose a portable oscilloscope per definition, not only at the remote location itself, but also during transport to the harsh environment.2) The environments where no floating measurements are to be made, are typically less harsh environments where there is at least some kind of bench space available. Even if the measurements are to be made at a remote location, the remote location itself, and the transportation to the remote location, do not impose a portable oscilloscope per definition, as per the explanation further at the bottom.=============================================================Let's focus back on the discussion about whether the SmartScope is worth the money=============================================================The SmartScope does not impress much against the existing base of USB scopes in terms of features.And in fact it costs much more. I fail to recognize a unique feature. If any, please elaborate!The only feature that sticks out above the others, is the so called fancy touch-screen interface.But this does not, or should not, weigh up to better specs in all other areasIf the product is really meant for students at home, a bench oscilloscope with an accompanying tablet control application, is a much better deal: then you have the best of both worlds!========================Transportation of an oscilloscope========================Students have access to oscilloscopes at the university. So there is no reason to take the oscilloscope with them to university.In the event they have to, because they are working late on a group project, and the labs are closed,they could either invite the group members over at one student's home, or they could take the bench oscilloscope to a meeting room or a class room at the university.If you are a student and have a car, then there is no decision to be made. Just put the Rigol DS1054Z on the back seat, when going out in the fieldBut even if you come by bus or train, it should not stop you from taking your scope with you.There are so many students who carry a skateboard or a sports bag to class. So why can't they carry a Rigol sports bag instead?Buy the official Rigol carry bag, or a sports bag that fits the Rigol oscilloscope nicely. Possibly add some extra padding in the bag, to further protect the oscilloscope during transport.Note that most bench oscilloscopes come with a carry handle, so it is easy to take the oscilloscope out of the bag, and install it on a bench in less than 5 minutes. Once the bench oscilloscope is installed, you will benefit from greater comfort than an USB scope. The transportation was worth it! You will finish your measurements sooner, and can pass by the gym when heading back home after class

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2016, 08:49:25 am
content: Quote from: pascal_sweden on July 15, 2016, 07:19:40 amErr, no to both, these are your generalizations and presumptions based on your experience and the tools currently cheaply available.OT my comments might be, but don't post such misconceptions.

author: pascal_sweden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2016, 08:55:58 am
content: To further support my statement:Safe floating measurements can be made using the math options in a bench oscilloscope.1) The environments whereunsafe floating measurements are to be made, are typically harsh environments where there is no bench space available at all. These environments impose a portable oscilloscope per definition, not only at the remote location itself, but also during transport to the harsh environment.2) The environments wheresafe measurements are to be made, and safe floating measurements can be made using the math options, are typically less harsh environments where there is at least some kind of bench space available. Even if the measurements are to be made at a remote location, the remote location itself, and the transportation to the remote location, do not impose a portable oscilloscope per definition, as per the explanation further at the bottom.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2016, 01:42:50 pm
content: Quote from: pascal_sweden on July 15, 2016, 08:55:58 amSorry but your assumptions are way way off and make me wonder about your hands-on experience with actual measurements. If you had hands on experience then you'd know using math (subtracting 2 channels) sucks for several reasons:- the entire signal needs to be within the dynamic input range- you lose 2 channels- common mode rejection is poor- math operation maybe slow and could exclude other math operations

author: System Error Message
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2016, 01:57:20 pm
content: few math function? Its really easy to maximise that limited mobile CPU power to perform math. Most phones nowdays have GPUs that support openCL so theres an offload option, or even use one of those dedicated processing units like the hexagon in snapdragon CPUs.It sounds like they arent good at making stuff and its way overpriced for what it can do.

author: pascal_sweden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2016, 03:04:06 pm
content: I think that you are not getting my point at all, and that you don't realize what the context of my remarks are.All my remarks are in the context of the comparison between the Rigol DS1054Z and the SmartScope from LabNation.And all those remarks are arguments to convince the audience, that whatever the SmartScope is good at, the Rigol can do for sure.Of course both of these devices come with their limitations. But that's outside the context of this discussion.It's all about basic logic, reasoning and common sense. But you seem to lack that, because you loose focus, when you try to generalize my remarks, and take them out of their context.Quote from: nctnico on July 15, 2016, 01:42:50 pm

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2016, 04:28:25 pm
content: Pascal, I'm really beginning to wonder what your purpose is with this thread. Ok I know that I suggested you start it (because your long post complaining about it didn't seem relevant in the VDS1022i thread) but all you seem to be doing is trying to put down the "SmartScope from LabNation". I can't see any positive message.Do you have some personal bad blood or disagreement with these guys?

author: pascal_sweden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2016, 08:31:21 am
content: I am sorry to hear that you have that perception!My thread was meant to list up the facts, nothing more. I apologize if some of the remarks resulted in a negative overtone.One of the reasons why I take the side of Rigol, is that LabNation believes their product is far superior than Rigol. I even had the impression that they look down on Rigol from my conversations with them. Maybe I am a bit biased because of that, but if they are unfair, then I can be as wellAnyhow, for my use cases, a portable oscilloscope should have at least the same specs as a real bench oscilloscope, and on top of that it should preferably have floating inputs. If it doesn't have specs that are as good, or if it doesn't have floating inputs, I rather take my bench oscilloscope with me in a carry bag, and an isolated probe, because the small size of the oscilloscope itself, does not weigh up to the specs and an isolated front-end.The paragraph above, summarizes it all. If I only would have listed up that paragraph before, there would have been less back and forth arguing in the thread, and the thread would have been much shorter!

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2016, 10:46:22 am
content: Specs, specs and more specs.Thing is Pascal, thatspecsmean different things to different people.Some random thoughts:Very simple things like scope BNC input max voltage ratings, 300V rated inputs for example might be fine to scope the primary side of a SMPS in the US were mains voltages are 110 VAC but other parts of the world were it is 230 VAC, then rectified 230 V mains is ~325 VDC and exceeds the max channel input voltages of many scopes.Some isolation is provided from mains earth withmostportable HH's and USB scopes by virtue that they are battery powered but this only applies to ONE channel and there are limits as to the voltages this isolation provides and applies to user safety.In reality there are only a few scopes, HH's, USB or bench models that offertrueisolation from mains Gnd and between channels and in most cases isolation is provided at substantially greater cost.Isolated probes are the accepted solution for the ordinary DSO, the problem being that to equip hobbyist and entry level scopes with a full set of isolated probes will cost much more than the scope itself.I hope I live long enough to see the perfect scope manufactured.

author: Radioman55
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: October 09, 2016, 10:27:51 pm
content: I'm a bit late to this party, but I hope you don't mind me adding to this thread. What I think got lost here is that the comparison is all wrong, it is an apples to oranges comparison. The LabNation (or Owon, or SainSmart, or Hantek) is not a bench oscilloscope to begin with. The performance of the Rigol DS1054Zshould"win" because it is not being compared to another bench 'scope. Instead, it should be compared to the Tektronix TBS1064 or TBS1154, or the Siglent SDS2074. Then tell me which is the real bench oscilloscope.A few of us have an occasional use for a 'scope, many frequently use and need a moderately priced and equipped 'scope, and some use a 'scope continuously and may need a heavily featured unit based on the work that is being done. I do not work with solid state devices, and therefore I need a very modest 'scope at a reasonable cost, and see a USB unit (Owon VDS1022i) as filling the bill. At USD $110, it meets the need and saves me the 'extra $289' that I don't have for the Rigol. I would think that there are many who frequent this site who are on a limited budget, and a USB 'scope would be a welcome addition to there equipment.It boils down to reading the specifications, and matching them to the need, or getting the most we canin comparison to our need. This 'My scope is better than your scope' comparison is demeaning and serves no purpose. Thanks for listening!

author: pascal_sweden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2016, 07:33:38 pm
content: My review also included a comparison of USB scopes.Owon, SainSmart are much cheaper than the SmartScope from LabNation and have much better specs!So yes, you are right. It boils down to: too expensive - specs below market standards - waste of money.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2016, 08:12:01 pm
content: Quote from: pascal_sweden on July 15, 2016, 07:19:40 amThat's a rather limited view of 'floating measurements'. Consider the RLC circuit where I want to measure the voltage on the capacitor (ref to ground) and the voltage across the inductor (truly floating). This is easy to accomplish on the Digilent Analog Discovery because both channels float but takes 2 channels to get the A-B voltage across the inductor and a 3rd channel to get the capacitor voltage on a normal scope. To be fair, both inputs to the channels are still referenced to analog ground which is referenced to USB ground which is referenced to earth ground. But the inputs are truly differential. Oh, and I want to use a separate trigger input to trigger the scope when I hit the circuit with a pulse. The AD has 2 separate trigger inputs. I so enjoy demonstrating damped harmonic motion...I don't know anything about the SmartScope but if I was wanting a lab in a backpack, the Analog Discovery would be my first choice.I installed the SmartScope app and, while it is a far cry below Digilent's Waveforms app, it isn't totally useless. I could get used to it with a lot of effort. But, I agree, it seems pricey when I can get the Analog Discovery for $279 and the AD has a lot more capability. And then there is the AD API for those who want to customize testing.ETA: I really like my DS1054Z. Every time I use it I appreciate the convenience of a modern DSO.

author: pascal_sweden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2016, 08:53:21 pm
content: Interesting to hear that the Analog Discovery has 2 floating channels!Is the ground common or separate?Do you have the first revision or the second revision of the Analog Discovery?

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2016, 11:26:07 pm
content: Quote from: pascal_sweden on October 10, 2016, 08:53:21 pmI have the first version and I'm seriously thinking about the V2. It has much more capable power supplies - like 2W per output and variable up to 5V (I believe). It'll wind up on my bench sooner or later.Both scope channels are truly differential so the ground lead is floating (more or less). So, basically, the two leads are the + and - inputs to a differential amplifier. In the end, both are reference to ground through the analog ground but they can float on the device under test so long as the voltages stay within limits.From the manual:QuoteThere's quite a bit of documentation on the scope capabilities in the manual:https://reference.digilentinc.com/reference/instrumentation/analog-discovery-2/reference-manual?redirect=1Most of my projects run at 5V or less although my analog computer stuff has +-10V swings. There is nothing about the AD that imposes any restrictions on my projects.

author: slicendice
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2016, 04:00:50 pm
content: The SmartScope is open hardware and a lot of the code is open source. If not happy then build your own version of it and fix all stuff that is missing or not good enough.

author: ConCat
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: April 05, 2018, 02:50:43 pm
content: I'm not quite sure why there might need to be a 'positive message' in Pascal's original post. There is no two ways about it; in this particular competition the Rigol wins hands down.One very good reason for that has not been properly discussed, if at all; the Rigol's software cannot just 'leave you behind', the Smartscope's most certainly can.Yes, I do have a Smartscope. I've never had a Rigol, but I have had a few such scopes and always passed them on to my customers because they needed something and because their bulk did not allow me to port them around 'just in case' as the Smartscope does.Labnation do have an issue with the stability of their software, as can be seen from a visit to their forum. I have no doubt they're working had on it, but that is not a great deal of use to someone for whom the software continuously crashes on a perfectly acceptable and fully functioning Android tablet.There does not have to be a positive message, there must be rigourous unsentimental analysis. That is what test equipment is supposed to offer.