Headphone cables - Why so thin? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / beginners

author: made2hack
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 29, 2016, 10:37:53 am
content: Hello all,Can anyone tell me the purpose of making headphone cable so incredibly thin? I mean, what is it 60 AWG? Worse? It can't just be a matter of cost can it?I don't know why they can't use perhaps a "reasonable" thickness such as 30AWG? I'm talking about the cable that exists when you buy headphones, not necessarily cable you can buy raw from a supplier.

author: John Coloccia
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 29, 2016, 10:45:32 am
content: Quote from: made2hack on November 29, 2016, 10:37:53 amPeople want headphones cables as thin as possible, and generally speaking the finer the wire the more flexible it is.

author: AndyC_772
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 29, 2016, 11:02:47 am
content: Depends what you mean by "headphones". I've seen some staggeringly thin wire wrapped in quite chunky insulation on full sized over-the-ear cans, where the thickness really wouldn't be an issue.I wish I knew the answer. The cans in question weren't cheap, the wire did indeed break after a while, and because of its thinness, non-solderable coating and proprietary connectors, it wasn't possible to repair.At least replacement cables were available, for which I guess I should be thankful, but it was a completely unnecessary failure in the first place.

author: tatus1969
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 29, 2016, 11:11:44 am
content: less material = more profit.

author: JPortici
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 29, 2016, 11:17:03 am
content: well earbuds should have a thin, lightweight wire. it's very unpleasant to have something that drags your head down by the ears.women with big earrings.. how do they bear that?anyway my headphones (ie: senheiser dt 880 pro) all have a thick-ass wire and quality connector with screw-in adapter

author: Alex Eisenhut
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 29, 2016, 11:28:02 am
content: Are you serious? You want thick stiff heavy cable hanging from your ears? Then replace the cable and tell us how it goes.

author: made2hack
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 29, 2016, 11:49:47 am
content: I don't particularly mind having heavier cable. It doesn't have to be super thick. I mean, think of a single strand of 24AWG ( one of the wires in the 8 cables of Cat 5). It is thin enough to fit within earbuds shielding in my opinion and would provide an easier way to solder or repair.Or even 30AWG in my opinion would still work ok. Think about the "heavy duty" earphone cables that have that polyester sheathing over the cable to give it more "resistance". Yet when taken apart, the conductor inside is still that ridiculously thin micro conductor.And a funny think, I've never really broken earbuds with the super thin "silicone" like cable. However, large headphones with the so called "resistant" cable, I've broken all the times.Just my 2 cents

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 29, 2016, 12:12:58 pm
content: Quote from: Alex Eisenhut on November 29, 2016, 11:28:02 amFor something like these, why not?These things, however.....

author: John Coloccia
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 29, 2016, 01:42:56 pm
content: Quote from: AndyC_772 on November 29, 2016, 11:02:47 amIt's just a lacquer coating (or similar) of some kind, like magnet wire. You just solder and it melts right off during the soldering. I've fixed several like that.But yeah, they're a pain. I'm fixing a pair for a friend now. Cat chewed through it. Total PITA to fix reliably.

author: WaveyDipole
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 29, 2016, 02:16:47 pm
content: It seems that these days manufacturers don't even seem to bother insulating the individual inner wires like they did in the past. Each conductor is just enamelled in a different colour and the whole lot bundled together inside a single outer insulating sheaf. I guess this also contributes to making them thinner and more flexible, but I would imagine must increase the capacitance considerably. I guess at low impedances, audio frequencies and by making them as short as one can get away with, this probably doesn't matter much. Money saved and the customer enjoys a lighter, if flimsier cable.

author: BradC
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 29, 2016, 02:45:29 pm
content: Quote from: WaveyDipole on November 29, 2016, 02:16:47 pmWalkman headphones back in the late 80's were using that cable technique, so it's nothing new.

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 29, 2016, 03:00:09 pm
content: Quote from: John Coloccia on November 29, 2016, 01:42:56 pmGood to meet you bro!

author: rollatorwieltje
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 29, 2016, 03:07:31 pm
content: Quote from: made2hack on November 29, 2016, 11:49:47 amSame here. My Creative EP630 headphones died after 6 years. Wasn't even the wire that failed, the solder joint inside the earpiece failed when I pulled on it really hard (grabbed them from my desk while one of the earpieces was stuck). I used them every day. Meanwhile I had to throw away several jack cabled that developed faults near the plug. Seems to me the strength of a cable is mainly a function of the insulating sleeve, not the size of the conductors.

author: AndyC_772
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 29, 2016, 03:16:30 pm
content: Quote from: John Coloccia on November 29, 2016, 01:42:56 pmI should be so lucky. Microscope, sharp scalpel and lots of very gentle scraping is needed in my experience.QuoteTry making sure the cat has plenty of fresh food and water, and access to the outdoors during the day.(oh, you meant the cable... right?)

author: Alex Eisenhut
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 30, 2016, 02:48:03 am
content: Quote from: AndyC_772 on November 29, 2016, 03:16:30 pmSounds awfully complicated. I just use an Aspirin (the actual old school salicyclic acid, with no coatings), run the iron a bit cooler than for soldering, the melted aspirin strips off enamel nicely. You need to use the iron to scrape a bit on the wire too, and make sure the aspirin melts brown, not black. Careful, the fumes are awfully potent.You might need to try a few times until it works, I'm not quite sure how to explain it correctly.https://youtu.be/W3n6P4hejWE?t=86

author: LaserSteve
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 30, 2016, 03:48:28 am
content: Two words:Steve JobsNeed I say more?Steve

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 30, 2016, 04:30:25 am
content: i have no facebook account, therefore my life did not change

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2016, 05:35:52 pm
content: Quote from: made2hack on November 29, 2016, 10:37:53 am1. Flexibility. With stiff wire you get the effect called "microphoning" where every time the cable touches something, brushes up on your clothes, etc, that gets mechanically coupled to the headphones. It's a HUGE problem on earbuds, on headphones it depends on how they're constructed. And with earbuds and small, light headphones, stiff cable can dislodge them from a comfortable wearing position. (My Beyerdynamic MMX 300 gaming headset uses surprisingly stiff cable, which has the advantage of not tangling. But it would be awful cable for small headphones. It can get away with it because the headset applies plenty of force against your head to keep it in place.)2. Weight. With big headsets with high ear cup pressure, like my Beyerdynamics, thick cable is fine. With headphones with less pressure (like most on-ear cans, and most lightweight cans), heavy cable will pull the headphones off your head, which is particularly insidious on models with the cable run to one side only.As an aside, I don't think cost is the issue -- I'm pretty sure the ultraflexible cables are actually far more expensive to make than more ordinary, thicker cable. You see a few types. One is essentially magnet wire, run straight. But what's really common is magnet wire, wound around a synthetic fiber (so that the fiber gives tensional strength). I've also seen a variation of that where it's a metal foil wrapped around the fiber instead. Either way, it's way more expensive to manufacture than ordinary audio cables. You don't want actual insulation around each conductor because it reduces flexibility tremendously. (Many Sony earbuds, for example, use the wrapped fiber construction, but instead of actual overmolded outer insulation, it's a hollow tube, allowing maximum flexibility.)

author: Alexei.Polkhanov
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2016, 05:41:24 pm
content: Quote from: WaveyDipole on November 29, 2016, 02:16:47 pmIn my Nokia N900 phone headphone wires also used as an antenna for FM radio receiver built into a phone.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2016, 05:47:36 pm
content: Quote from: Alexei.Polkhanov on December 02, 2016, 05:41:24 pmThat's common in portable radios. But what does that have to do with the insulation?

author: Alexei.Polkhanov
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 05, 2016, 07:41:41 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on December 02, 2016, 05:47:36 pmInsulation, nothing. I was thinking about shielding when I wrote it. WaveyDipole referred to insulation, my mistake.I would think that headphone cable need to be shielded because in case of cell phones it has microphone input as well and that can pickup noise etc. But if it is shielded then it cannot be used as FM radio antenna.

author: orolo
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 05, 2016, 11:32:20 pm
content: Could it also have something to do with metal fatigue? Headphone cables tend to be flexed a lot. Tinsel wire requires very thin strands.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2016, 12:11:24 pm
content: Quote from: Alexei.Polkhanov on December 05, 2016, 07:41:41 pmWell, evidently shielding is not necessary, cuz I've never seen shielded earbud wire, with one sort-of exception: at least in Apple earbuds with microphones, the microphone conductor is wrapped with its own ground, almost like coax. The remaining 4 conductors (L and R signal and grounds) are totally unshielded.

author: dr.diesel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2016, 12:21:37 pm
content: My kids go through about one set a month each. The game by the bullies at school is to walk up behind them and rip the cable off, I've bought many dozens of pairs.

author: bson
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 07, 2016, 11:18:19 pm
content: One thing is that skin effect causes resistance to increase with frequency. At 100kHz the skin depth is about 0.2mm, meaning a conductor less than 0.4mm in diameter will start producing an increased resistance above 100kHz. 0.4mm diameter is 28awg. Bundling up 30-32awg wire with an insulating coating creates a cable very much immune to EMI outside the audio band, which is why it's popularly used for microphone cables. In turn, because of their suitability for reasonable runs, pliability, low signals, lack of mechanical microphonics (where moving a cable would cause a sound to be picked up by the mic), etc associated with microphone signals the same cabling is popularly used for headphones due to many of their similar requirements. (EMI is not a huge factor for headphones, although some audio drivers may have high reflection coefficients and act as amplifying detectors, bouncing RF back out with significant power.)

author: sainbablo
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 09, 2016, 05:20:03 pm
content: Thin wires,cracking easily, plastic coating peeling off, and with slight tug ear piece remains in ear while wire dangles out, all part of an elegant profit making ploy. You cant beat it

author: Assafl
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2016, 11:16:30 am
content: Other than stated above a few notes:1. For in ear headphones, thinner wire means less noise picked up by the wire (e.g. when it snags a bit). Older models (early 2000 when Knowles were just exploring this market - prior to it exploding) were like pistons in your ear sounded like Sound Level calibrators when tugged upon.2. Better thin wires use other conductors like Tinsel which are stronger than copper (but hell to solder so usually crimped). They are very strong - like piano wire.3. There is probably a sweet spot between cable weight and headphone weight. My Audeze have very heavy cables - but since the headphones are so goddamn heavy - it matters little. My in ear Etymotics (few grams headphones) have thin and lightweight cables. Both last at least 5 years between cable replacement...