Weird and dangerous utility transformer installation - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: AlbertL
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 20, 2021, 12:54:32 pm
content: What were they thinking?https://goo.gl/maps/vNdtDTfvZqDsk2Pr6

author: Kibabalu
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 20, 2021, 01:23:59 pm
content: What is the medium-high voltage level in the US? Is it a transformer station 20KV or 30KV to 110V?That's close to attempted murder!At least a sign, that you must not park there with your car

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 20, 2021, 01:35:33 pm
content: Elf n Stacey mate,it cuts down the risk of a possible injury due to working at height

author: AlbertL
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 20, 2021, 01:41:31 pm
content: Yes, to my limited knowledge, US distribution voltages (phase-to-phase) are generally in the 12-35 kV range. The secondary voltage (wye-connected) is typically 120/208 for small commercial customers, and 277/480 for larger commercial and industrial loads.What makes this especially surprising is that the equipment looks relatively modern, so this isn't some forgotten ancient artifact. Around 1965, US electrical manufacturers switched paint colors from black to gray, and insulator porcelain from brown to gray. And the insulators appear to be the newer epoxy type rather than the traditional porcelain or glass .I wonder how they plan cut the weeds around those transformers. Judging from the height of the weeds, they haven't figured it out yet - or found a landscaper willing to try it!

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 20, 2021, 02:20:16 pm
content: Aren't they having snow in New Jersey right about now?I can't imagine these are continuously electrified ... maybe it's some kind of setup to create high voltage occasionally rather than distribution?

author: AlbertL
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 20, 2021, 04:54:33 pm
content: It looks like that is the main power supply to the building. Following the power line down the driveway, I saw this polehttps://goo.gl/maps/2JNDDVgzNbDdSJd39, which has a "primary metering" arrangement: the bracket with three current transformers and two voltage transformers, and the meter cabinet near the road. This suggests that everything downstream of the pole, including the step-down transformer setup, belongs to the building owner rather than the utility.

author: Gregg
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 20, 2021, 08:59:32 pm
content: It looks like it needs a sign:"Free Darwin awards for copper thieves"

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 20, 2021, 09:46:03 pm
content: What's the required code in this area?

author: andy3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 21, 2021, 12:45:31 am
content: Just get the local newspaper reporter involved and things will start happening soon!

author: srb1954
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 21, 2021, 01:56:49 am
content: Quote from: AlbertL on February 20, 2021, 01:41:31 pmA really low-flying drone would do it.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 21, 2021, 05:09:07 am
content: That certainly is not typical.On the other hand, it's in a fenced in area topped with barbed wire, it's obviously a forbidden area. There are large substations all over with only marginally more secure fencing around them, and everybody knows that high voltage is dangerous. In fact there is one such substation just across the street from this place. That stuff has obviously been there for decades and I think if anyone had ever been hurt by it something would have been done by now. Frankly it wouldn't concern me too much, it's not as if there's a kids playground next to it.

author: janoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 21, 2021, 11:14:03 am
content: Quote from: james_s on February 21, 2021, 05:09:07 amKids perhaps not but stray dogs, cats, foxes, skunks whatever for sure do get in and cause shorts and fires even in much better secured installations. Given that this is right next to a building a fire caused by a fried squirrel could cause a lot of damage.And never underestimate the stupidity of young, inebriated or drugged people. There has been a case of some teens hiding from police in an electrical substation near Paris in 2005 following a reported break-in at a nearby construction site. Two of them didn't survive it and it sparked three weeks of huge riots across France.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2005_French_riotsI know even of a case of a copper thief who has successfully removed some busbars from a live (!) substation only to get electrocuted and killed while trying to carry them outside.The electrical code is there for a reason and not only for the cases where there is a kids' playground next to such installation.

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 21, 2021, 04:48:49 pm
content: If snow blows up into that corner, together with a bit of pollution it's going to be a bit more conductive than air.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 21, 2021, 08:01:18 pm
content: Quote from: janoc on February 21, 2021, 11:14:03 amWell apparently it is not a code violation because it looks to have been there for quite a long time, and as you point out, people and animals occasionally manage to get hurt even in more secure areas which illustrates that there are diminishing returns in trying to make things more idiot-proof. A copper thief that gets electrocuted is about the best ending one can hope for as far as I'm concerned, they made an extremely foolish decision and it cost them their place in the gene pool, the only improvement is if that happened before they had done damage to the substation. I have absolutely zero sympathy for people who get hurt or killed doing stuff they knew full well was both dangerous and illegal, and the danger is one reason it's illegal to trespass in these areas. Nobody accidentally steals copper from a substation, and doing so demonstrates a complete disregard for the lives of anyone else, it could easily result in numerous deaths due to lost power in a hospital or other facility so surely we can't be expected to be greatly concerned for the life of the thief. Nothing you can possibly do can keep a determined person out of an area that is not constantly supervised, and it's not possible to have a railing at every ledge, a pad everywhere someone could fall, a cover over everything sharp and an impervious wall and warning signs around everything dangerous. It's much easier to just not go in there and mess with, as people have apparently managed to do for decades so why all the worry now?The world overall is a dangerous place, life is full of risks, and I think it obvious that we should focus on teaching people to recognize and avoid unnecessary risks rather than engage in the futile effort of trying to protect everyone from their own poor choices. There are already warnings plastered all over everything to the point of absurdity and nature has proven time and time again that as soon as you make something idiot proof the world comes up with a better idiot. The modern obsession with safety beyond reasonable levels is akin to the tail wagging the dog. It has created a whole generation of people who expect to be able to do anything they want while being shielded from any possible harm and when they get hurt it's always someone else's fault for not doing more to foresee and prevent whatever possible stupid thing they decided to do.

author: janoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 21, 2021, 08:21:03 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on February 21, 2021, 08:01:18 pmI don't think that is how code violations are assessed ... It may have simply been never inspected properly.Quote from: james_s on February 21, 2021, 08:01:18 pmThere is a rather large difference between "idiot-proof" and freely accessible where even the gate seems to be ajar, right next to the parking lot, with a Burger King and another restaurant right across the street.Quote from: james_s on February 21, 2021, 08:01:18 pmYou have missed the point. Completely.It is not about "caring about the well-being of a stupid copper thief" but when that house burns down because of a completely avoidable fire in a non-compliant installation, whether caused by a curious kid wandering in, that thief or a squirrel getting fried, the owner may think differently. And given that this is America, I am pretty sure they get sued by the family for negligence to boot ...If for nothing else then a sane person would have this mess fixed out of a pure self-preservation instinct, not because it violates some code.The best part? The building where this is to be found is the Lincoln Technical Institute, which has this on the website:"#1 in New Jersey For Graduating the most Automotive, HVAC,Electrical& Electronic Systems Technicians" (emphasis mine).One would expect they should know better.Quote from: james_s on February 21, 2021, 08:01:18 pmBlah blah blah. As I have said above - you have completely missed my point.

author: richard.cs
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2021, 01:28:52 pm
content: I would have expected some warning signs and a bit of a higher fence, but I wouldn't bethatworried about it. Actually the major thing safety issue for me is there's a six inch gap down the right hand side of the gate, plenty big enough for a child to squeeze through. The real risks are kids and long conductive things like a car with some ladders on a roof rack.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2021, 02:16:28 pm
content: Quote from: janoc on February 21, 2021, 08:21:03 pmWell, it may also have been grandfathered as it met the code at the time of the install, etc. Looking at a single picture does not let us assume anything about the history of the installation or the inspection itself. Ideally the eletric company provider should inspect this with certain regularity, but that also varies greatly.Quote from: janoc on February 21, 2021, 08:21:03 pmI agree with the gate issue: the opened gate is a big no-no. Apart from that, it seems pretty isolated to me - obviously that I am not an expert on the code for that particular area. Again, periodic inspections would probably be a more comprehensive action.

author: Twoflower
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2021, 04:48:50 pm
content: No worries. That installation seems to be the gold-standard as a very similar installation is right to the next door:https://goo.gl/maps/CmTuJNYQfaFT9mLN8So everything's fine.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2021, 06:39:33 pm
content: The photograph reminds me of the movie The Selfish Giant (2013) where an impoverished child tries to steal electrified copper wire in a gruesome scene.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2021, 06:51:40 pm
content: A few years ago in Los Angeles a thief tried to steal copper wire from a live 6.6A series streetlighting circuit, it did not end well for him. Made a real mess the city had to repair too. Sure would be nice if people wouldn't try to steal stuff that doesn't belong to them, especially public infrastructure. They can cause many thousands of dollars damage for a few dollars worth of scrap copper.

author: pardo-bsso
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2021, 07:47:32 pm
content: Ha, you people there are so adorable freaking over that.These pictures were taken at floor level a couple of blocks from my current house.

author: f4eru
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2021, 10:55:18 pm
content: All quite crazy.How normal street transformers look like in Europe ;

author: pardo-bsso
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2021, 11:24:06 pm
content: Quote from: f4eru on February 22, 2021, 10:55:18 pmWell, to be fair to some of our local infrastructure some power stations/transformers/etc. are in historic houses or well disguised to look like one.But in this area they are a bit scarce

author: WattsThat
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2021, 01:55:07 am
content: the gate is not ajar, that’s the hinge side. The chain and padlock are on the left side. That fence is about 7 foot fence with barbed wire on the top and yes, it’s grounded. It’s way cheaper than bringing MV into the building and having to build a fire rated vault room.Good grief, it’s Mawah NJ. You know what the probability of a body or two being under the foundation of that building? I’m not joking. That’s one tough neighborhood. That transformer install, while not common, is everyday life in industrial America. Yawn.

author: helius
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2021, 02:34:36 am
content: Yes, major"when that house burns down"is meant to refer to the cinderblock warehouse in an obviously industrial area?If some idiots getting killed by trespassing in a substation sparks riots all over France, that says more about the kind of people in France who are looking for excuses to encourage rioting.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2021, 09:05:18 pm
content: Below are some photographs I just took around the local substation where I live about 30 minutes west of St. Louis, Missouri. The substation is completely surrounded by chain-link fence with barbed wire on top, and of course the two gates are locked but that would not stop anybody who wants to get in.

author: richard.cs
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2021, 11:44:05 pm
content: For comparison some typical UK setups, roughly in ascending order of size:Single phase pole mount 11 kV to 240 V:https://goo.gl/maps/Ttm8ed82Zk5YyXvbAPole mount 11 kV to 240/400 V:https://goo.gl/maps/oGjianvpEEW2Y6gm6Enclosed 11 kV to 240/400 V:https://goo.gl/maps/b2KXMmJ2yiE42hGAAOpen 11 kV to 240/400 V:https://goo.gl/maps/FWgZFGjBvcEoatS78- similar fence height to the one under discussion, but no accessible live parts without cutting padlocks.Higher power. Probably 33 kV in, 11 kV out:https://goo.gl/maps/76i6B8v7tYENfSah8Fence around 2.5 m plus razor wire. No exposed live parts.132 kV to 33 kV.https://goo.gl/maps/Nj4nFXwSMDTpuifA9, on the site of the old (1930s) city power station. 2.5m + razor wire inner fence + outer security fence. Equipment about 5m back from the boundary.Another 132 to 33 kV, this time more rural:https://goo.gl/maps/Cc8q4xHJCcUPMDeH8Major 400/132 kV switchyard and substation:https://goo.gl/maps/V913J82J1KGKXxYHAQuote from: james_s on February 22, 2021, 06:51:40 pmYou guys still have series streetlights? A series chain of incandescents across two MV phases with a lamp-shorting device like a monster string of Christmas lights? They've been gone 50 years around here, everything like that got replaced with low pressure sodium running at LV in the 1970s.

author: f4eru
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2021, 12:26:36 pm
content: Wow, I had no idea series streetlights existed, interesting technology...Could there be an interesting modern application in those "antifuses" ?http://www.filmcutouts.com/

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2021, 01:58:56 pm
content: As were sharing pictures of our favorite sub stations,heres the view from my kitchen windowand living room windowIt maybe explain why my psc is rather high

author: richard.cs
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2021, 02:13:21 pm
content: Quote from: themadhippy on February 24, 2021, 01:58:56 pmThat's very typical of most suburban UK installations, perhaps at the bigger end. Transformer bottom left with 3P+N coming down in singles to the cabinet bottom right which looks wide enough for 8-10 outgoing ways. The busbars will be horizontal with the cables coming up from underneath and three horizontal rows of fuses.* HV switchgear top right, and probably a cable trench under those slabs top left.The gravel is deliberate, it's free-draining and reduces the shock risk for anyone standing on it. Earth electrodes may well extend outside of the fenced boundary.*Like thishttps://images.app.goo.gl/ey3oeMEHLFkyMwAA9Quote from: themadhippy on February 24, 2021, 01:58:56 pmIt would rather. 10-15 kA?

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2021, 05:32:58 pm
content: Quote from: richard.cs on February 23, 2021, 11:44:05 pmThey've been vanishing quickly but as of about 10 years ago Los Angeles had around 40,000 series lights remaining and there are still isolated pockets of them in other areas. Incandescent, mercury vapor and high pressure sodium, the latter two using special ballasts. I don't think any new installations have gone in since the 1950s but some still remain due to the enormous cost of replacing the whole system and some of the wealthier historic areas tried to preserve their original streetlighting for as long as they could. The last maker of the special incandescent lamps stopped a few years ago, but there is still at least one company making HID ballasts and I was involved in developing a transformer to get 120V from a 6.6A series loop for connecting modern LED luminaires. The loops are powered by an electromechanical constant current regulator, ranging in size from around 5kVA to 50kVA.Airports are another holdout, most airfield lighting is still 6.6A. It has the advantage of being able to control a large number of widely spread out lights from a single point while maintaining even brightness across all lamps. Most airport regulators are electronic.

author: f4eru
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2021, 05:43:04 pm
content: Very interesting.You're righthttps://www.airportlightingcompany.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/09/ALC-861L-Manual-01Jan17.pdfWe could do the same techniques in a modern fashion with LEDs

author: JohnG
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2021, 06:42:59 pm
content: Quote from: WattsThat on February 23, 2021, 01:55:07 amBeat me to it...Cheers,John

author: AlbertL
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 01, 2021, 02:25:54 pm
content: Quote from: David Hess on February 23, 2021, 09:05:18 pmThe key thing to note is that all of exposed live components are located above the reach of a person on the ground. You'd really have to make an effort to touch anything hot. I recall an article about substation design in a trade magazine from long ago - 1930s I think - which indicated that the transformer arrangement at the Mahwah building was considered dangerous and obsolete even back then.

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 01, 2021, 02:42:32 pm
content: They've turned pole pigs into groundhogs, you can still see the vertical attachment brackets on those things ...

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 01, 2021, 07:08:02 pm
content: One thing that surprises me is the length of the tensioned vertical wires - inevitable when you turn pole pigs into ground hogs.Vertical wires like that tend to be aerodynamically unstable (think slapping rigging on sailing boats). Obviously they wouldn't flap enough to contact anything, but I would expect them to suffer additional flexing where they attach to the insulators.Normal horizontal spans are tensioned by setting the amount of sag between pylons / poles. I wonder how they set the tension of the wires in those setups, and how many cases of broken vertical feed wires blowing in the wind!Edit: I can't quite see what those spiral structures are between the bottom insulators and the wire (and also at the ends of the horizontal span) - are they just wire straining clamps, or are they some sort of damper?