Where can I buy non-phoebus light bulbs? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Connecteur
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 21, 2021, 08:28:31 pm
content: Light bulbs are being made with shorter and shorter lifespans due to planned obsolescence. Big Clive has shown us that cutting the current in half can make LED bulbs last much longer, as mandated in Dubai. It seems like too much work to re-engineer my own light bulbs, so I am looking for that "black sheep" manufacturers who makes them to last.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Longest-lasting_light_bulbshttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoebus_cartel

author: BrokenYugo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 21, 2021, 08:34:22 pm
content: "Suitable for enclosed fixtures" is the fine print you're looking for.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 21, 2021, 08:47:44 pm
content: The Costco LED lamps I bought are still going strong after 5 years. Just don't buy the absolute cheapest and you should easily get 10 years from them.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 21, 2021, 08:59:15 pm
content: It isn't planned obsolescence, it's cost reduction, that cartel you mention ceased to exist in 1939, which you might have noticed was a very long time ago. People voted with their wallets and they repeatedly voted for cheap, unless mandates such as that in Dubai prevents it. People still buy 75 cent incandescent lamps because they're "cheap" even though they cost far more in energy consumption than the cost of an LED bulb. Did you notice that those Dubai lamps contain twice as many LED filaments as cheaper bulbs? The LEDs are the most expensive part of the bulb, so more LEDs = more expensive bulb.If you want long lasting LED bulbs they are still available, although they cost more. Philips and Cree stuff that is rated for enclosed fixtures usually hold up pretty well. Most of the LED bulbs I paid $40 EACH for back around 2010 are still working fine. They were good quality products, priced accordingly, and very few people bought them, most balked at the price.

author: BrianHG
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 21, 2021, 09:15:13 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on April 21, 2021, 08:59:15 pm

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 22, 2021, 01:43:09 am
content: Easy answer is to buy dimmable LED bulbs that add up to twice or more the wattage you actually need and then dim them down accordingly.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 22, 2021, 01:59:13 am
content: Quote from: NiHaoMike on April 22, 2021, 01:43:09 amYou don't even need twice the wattage. If you dim a typical LED bulb down to half rated wattage it will still appear to be 80-90% as bright. The human eye is not at all linear, and LEDs get more efficient as you drive them at lower current. This is exactly the principal that the Dubai lamps use.

author: Miyuki
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 22, 2021, 04:46:10 am
content: Why do people still use this format of light bulbs? For some fancy chandelier maybe but for general use are much better to use something designed with leds in mind.I have almost everywhere dimmable panels with CCT. Now I can have a light that I need and control it from everywhere.

author: Connecteur
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 22, 2021, 04:06:58 pm
content: I can't dim a non-dimmable LED, otherwise I could just use twice as many bulbs and run them at half brightness, but then the capacitors would give out, right on queue.I'm talking about the type of engineering that Big Clive discussed. Reducing the current by half and doubling the number of LED elements. Also using long-life capacitors instead of the ones that fail within a few years.

author: Connecteur
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 22, 2021, 04:10:47 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on April 21, 2021, 08:59:15 pmActually, I disagree. I have a friend in Poland who's brother was a manager at a light bulb factory. The bulbs lasted for many years, but they weren't making enough money to remain profitable, so they hired an American consultant who recommended a number of changes that would shorten the lifespan of the bulbs.I'm sure no one involved ever calls it "planned obsolescence" but that's exactly what it is.

author: langwadt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 22, 2021, 04:27:16 pm
content: Quote from: Connecteur on April 22, 2021, 04:10:47 pmthey were the only ones selling light bulbs? sounds like the typical urban myth, someone who knows someone heard someone did xxxmore likely they weren't profitable because they were using too expensive materials compared to what people were willing to pay

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 22, 2021, 04:28:35 pm
content: Quote from: Connecteur on April 22, 2021, 04:10:47 pmFriend's brother who did overhear some BS story. Also you don't need an American engineer to reduce the lifespan. Just make shorter filament, so it runs at higher temperature.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 22, 2021, 05:32:46 pm
content: Quote from: Connecteur on April 22, 2021, 04:10:47 pmYou can disagree all you want, but you'd be wrong. Nobody engineers their products to fail, they engineer them to be cheap to produce, sometimes the result is that they fail. If two products are the same price and one consistently fails sooner then people will stop buying it, that would be a very foolish choice for a business.There was a whole thread about this recently, with incandescent lamps it's trivial to make them last a very long time, tens of thousands of hours is no problem at all but the energy efficiency plunges as rapidly as lifespan increases when you do this. Since the vast majority of the total cost of ownership is the energy consumed, it is a false economy to optimize for long life. Bulbs are cheap, electricity is expensive, so you optimize for efficiency without making the life so short that changing bulbs becomes an undue hassle.That is all moot at this point though since incandescent bulbs are mostly obsolete for general illumination. With LED bulbs there is a different set of compromises, primarily lifespan vs cost. Consumers have repeatedly demonstrated that cost is the most important aspect so bulbs are optimized for low cost while still offering generally acceptable lifespan. Making long lived LED bulbs means using lots of LEDs driven at low current so they are lightly stressed and using a high quality robust circuit to drive them, both of these things cost money. The fewer and cheaper components you can get away with, the lower the price and the more bulbs you will likely sell. Don't blame the companies, blame all the idiots who repeatedly buy the cheapest junk they can find.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 22, 2021, 05:36:38 pm
content: Quote from: Miyuki on April 22, 2021, 04:46:10 amBecause I like traditional light fixtures and lamps, and I have mostly vintage stuff. The screw-in lamp is a standardized format that has been in use for decades, it means I can have one style of bulb that can be used almost everywhere and I can use fixtures that are aesthetically appropriate for my 1979 house. LED panels would just look weird and out of place here.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 22, 2021, 05:45:17 pm
content: Quote from: Connecteur on April 22, 2021, 04:06:58 pmSo don't buy non-dimmable LED bulbs, problem solved. The dimmable ones cost more though.Doubling the number of LEDs costs money, the LEDs represent the majority of the cost of a bulb. Using long-life capacitors costs money, get out your wallet, bulbs that do exactly these things are readily available, they're relatively expensive though. If you buy dollar store crap don't act surprised when they don't last. It seems to me like you have a preexisting idea that there is some kind of conspiracy and you are using the cheapest of the cheap garbage to support this idea and pretending that the high quality products you claim to want are not available. They are, you just have to pay for them.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 22, 2021, 05:50:29 pm
content: Quoteso dont,just put a capacitor in the lamps supply

author: langwadt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 22, 2021, 07:07:33 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on April 22, 2021, 05:36:38 pmand standard light bulbs are easily replaceable. Many led lamps and panels are basically throw away if any part fails

author: Miyuki
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 22, 2021, 07:25:09 pm
content: Quote from: langwadt on April 22, 2021, 07:07:33 pmI don't have here any that will not have separate driver brick. (it might be hidden in the body somewhere) Might not be sold as two separate parts. But drivers can be easily replaced with generic ones.I agree with vintage (no offense I love 30s aesthetics so much) decorated houses. Filament style bulbs are the best choice.But every light bulb shaped led is a big compromise as there is not enough room for driver and led cooling.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 22, 2021, 08:08:39 pm
content: It is a challenge to make a traditional bulb shaped LED that works well but it is largely a solved problem. There are lots of them that work fine and last a long time, I migrated to LED between 2010 and 2015 and the vast majority of those bulbs are still working. Yes there is a lot of junk on the market, but there are good bulbs too.