DMM: Which one (1KV), quality vs features - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / beginners

author: mvno_subscriber
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2021, 09:17:32 am
content: I've had a cheap Uni-T multimeter for many years, and it has served me quite well. It's a part of me. I don't really want to part with it. However, it's maximum 600V which isn't up to my needs anymore. I need a 1KV-meter. Preferrably, it should replace my existing one. My initial requirements are simple:Voltages: 1000 V, AC and DCCurrent measurement: 0.1µA resolution, but more would be great (for measuring leakage in capacitors)Diode and continuity testResistanceI also would like it not to kill me or anything, so I guess some build quality is essential. I see there are quite a few "True RMS" meters running about - I don't know if I need true RMS (do I? I repair hifi equipment and computers), but it also seems to me that the quality of TRMS measurement varies quite a lot. Some indicate rather large error rates on non-sinusoidal waveforms, which leaves me to wonder if I should ignore TRMS altogether.Some multimeters also have Bluetooth connectivity. I have no idea what I should do with this. A datalogger could probably prove practical at some point, although currently I'm not there.I already have an LCR meter and an oscilloscope as well as temperature reader, so for example capacitance or temperature measurements, or support for high resistances isn't necessary.I have currently boiled it down to 4+1.All of these are about the same price, +/- €/$ 20Beha Amprobe HEX110- very simple, seems out of production, but has decent specs and looks solid? (https://www.elfadistrelec.no/Web/Downloads/_t/ds/HEX110-D_ger_tds.pdf)Beha Amprobe AM540EUR- Newer model from same manufacturer, but poorer specs. I might overlook something, though. (https://www.elfadistrelec.no/Web/Downloads/_t/ds/am-5xx_eng_tds.pdf)RND 355-00003- OEM meter, True RMS. Seems kind of nice, really. But the specs of its TRMS seems a bit odd, although I'm far from any expert. (https://www.elfadistrelec.no/Web/Downloads/_t/ds/RND%20305-00004E+RND%20355-00003_eng_tds.pdf)ExTech MM750W- Fancy pancy, with bluetooth and TRMS. Slow update rate? I've found a thread here regarding their quality, but it's from 2014, so no idea if it has become good or not. (https://www.elfadistrelec.no/Web/Downloads/_t/ds/Extech-MM750W-eng_tds.pdf)Additionally, I've looked higher up in price range (about 2x), and found this:Beha Amprobe HD110C- No auto range, very simple and very solid. Great specs, resolution of 0.01µA. (https://www.elfadistrelec.no/Web/Downloads/_t/ds/HD110C_eng_tds.pdf)As mentioned, I mainly repair hifi equipment (solid state and tube), plus old computers and digital electronics. I only know what I know, and have no idea what I might miss out on. If anyone could shine some experience and tips on this, I would be very grateful, as thinking and researching all of this still leaves me kind of puzzled.

author: daisizhou
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2021, 09:31:06 am
content: fluke 27/fm (brown-gray military version)*The one that is not yellow is the non-military version-The yellow one is the average omnipotentor fluke 187/189I think these 2 models are more practical, maybe 187 and 189 are more expensive

author: daisizhou
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2021, 09:47:59 am
content: FLUKE 27/FM(Military version)The disadvantage is that there is no capacitance measurement function and no backlight.Real RMS multimeter,Rugged and waterproof,You can try to understand itThere is also FLUKE 8060A but it is a button typeI think the ones I recommend are all classics, welcome to add

author: mvno_subscriber
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2021, 01:37:06 pm
content: daisizhou thanks for the tip, but I'm limited to my current supplier. I've tried to look at what Flukes they have, but the price far exceeds my budget (~€200).

author: Electro Fan
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2021, 04:26:22 pm
content: Quote from: mvno_subscriber on February 27, 2021, 09:17:32 amAlong with computers/IT what took me to test equipment was hifi. About 20 years ago my vacuum tube hifi mentor suggested that for safe reliable high voltage work the Fluke 179 would be a good choice. I am not so sure that your hifi vacuum tube work will be well served with any $20 DMM.Maybe look at some Fluke and Brymen DMMs.

author: mvno_subscriber
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2021, 04:40:29 pm
content: Quote from: Electro Fan on February 27, 2021, 04:26:22 pmThe meters I'm looking at are in the €150-250 price range. How far should I go, in your opinion, in order to get something decent? Fluke seems way up there price wise. I'm also looking at Peaktech 3440 (https://www.elfadistrelec.no/Web/Downloads/_t/ds/3440_eng_ger_tds.pdf), but I guess this also goes in the category of OEM-stuff.Are there any signs, apart from brand name, that would indicate the device is of high enough quality? When it comes to tube gear, what specifications would you say are important?

author: Electro Fan
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2021, 05:19:21 pm
content: Watch Joe Smith’s youtube videos on DMM testing for insight on signs and specs.Brymen 786 should be on the short list.https://www.welectron.com/mediafiles/manuals/brymen/Brymen_BM780_Manual.pdfhttps://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-eevblog-bm786-multimeter/Edit:Maybe a 257s?, not sure if the 7 series has advantages for high voltage. Maybe Joe or others here can help you pick the most suitable Brymen. For high voltage I’d go for safety first and budget second.https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/choosing-the-right-multimeter/Watch at about 39 min for some testing and then a summary of some other meter test results:https://youtu.be/UY9Myo5ngPQ

author: BrokenYugo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2021, 08:20:35 pm
content: I'd suggest spending $20+ on the probes alone for routine use at 600+ volts, and know how to use them at that level, one hand in your pocket and whatnot.A precision current range is not strictly necessary for capacitor leakage, the 10 meg input impedence used in volts mode will work for that, I think that works out to 1 volt=.1 uA.

author: wizard69
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2021, 11:48:32 pm
content: If you are going to be workings on tube based hardware you need to be aware that voltages in such devices can be extremely high and easily blow out a meter with a 1000V rating. So you either need to understand how a unit is wired and where the various voltage rails lay with respect to one and another or you will expose your meter to excessive voltage. So if you are confident that nothing you will work on will have potentials over 1000Volts then I'd suggest a Fluke 87V. The 87 V is very well protected and effectively shielded so it is a quality solution. If there is a risk of +1000VDC, you might want to consider a higher voltage meter like:https://www.hioki.com/en/products/detail/?product_key=5614but it only does high voltage DC under certain circumstances. Kind of a strange meter really.In the end it isn't the meter that will keep you safe. There are many meters with 1000 volt capability. The real question is if your tube circuits will all be under that voltage.

author: BrokenYugo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2021, 12:23:44 am
content: Quote from: wizard69 on February 27, 2021, 11:48:32 pmThat's a good point, tube gear is often under 1KV but that's not at all a rule, especially around any CRT (even the old round 5 inch scope tubes are 1200-1500, TVs run all the way up to the mid 20kV range), audio output stages, radio transmitters, etc. At that point you are better off HV probe shopping, not meter shopping.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2021, 12:48:03 am
content: I just posted some recommendations for hi-fi vaccuum tube gear in the thread below.https://www.eevblog.com/forum/beginners/budget-multimeter-for-vacuum-tube-use/msg3459406/#msg3459406All in all, the amplifiers will not have the energy up to the levels of a CAT III or CAT IV meter. However, being very practical, a cheaper solution such as the UT61E will not be as forgiving as, say, a Brymen or an Amprobe meter in case you forget the meter on ohms and slap the probes on a B+.I have an Amprobe AM530 and it can handle anything thrown at it - the AM540 is the same breed. The aforementioned BM257 or a more featured BM857 or BM867 (available at tme.eu or Batronix, just to stay in the EU) are also excellent choices. I would stay away from Extech - they have somewhat decent meters, but their quality control was very bad for many years, with many reports here in EEV

author: mvno_subscriber
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2021, 06:59:28 am
content: Thanks for all the input! I've read/watched more regarding safety and features; especially EEVBlog #75 (DMM Guide for beginners) was very interesting. All in all, this has been quite a sobering experience. Why I didn't get around to this before, and only read specs, is a good question. I guess I was too confident about what gear I had, and what I needed.Brymen is not a choice, sadly, as my suppliers don't have it. However, based on all this I'm willing to blow my budget. I have a life I'd like to last (not to mention wife and kids). Putting the meter in ohms and probing it somewhere (forgetting to discharge a capacitor) will happen, and then I need a meter that won't die on me (or make me die)..Currently, I've settled at a Fluke 175 (https://www.elfadistrelec.no/Web/Downloads/_t/ds/Fluke%20175%20177%20179_eng_tds.pdf). It seems identical to 179, except for lower accuracy and no ability to measure temperature. I have to admit, the auto-hold feature looked like a godsend. Would this meter do, in your opinion?

author: ogden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2021, 07:57:58 am
content: Quote from: mvno_subscriber on February 28, 2021, 06:59:28 amDecent choice. I suggest to consider Keysight U1241B as well. In short: Fluke 174 for those who are doing mainly AC mains work, but those who work on DC electronics - U1241B (together with 3rd party pointy probe tips). Compare dials of both and you will see why

author: mvno_subscriber
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2021, 09:01:53 am
content: Thanks! I did look at the U1241B, but dismissed it outright due to its color. Will have a look again, though 👍

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2021, 11:04:53 am
content: I had a 179 and it is an excellent meter and built like a tank. It is great for the job and you will not regret it.The Autohold is really nice, and I know that some higher end Keysight models have it - I don't know the U1241B, though.The orange color may throw you off but, at least in the models I have used, it makes up for the some of the best backlights I have seen.Good luck!

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2021, 11:07:34 am
content: I own two U1252B’s. I got them super cheap, but if I’d paid anywhere near full price, I’d be disappointed. Yes, they have lots of features, but they’re just not as dependable as my Fluke 87V. Based on that, I’d be reluctant to recommend a Keysight over a Fluke, at least as your only meter.

author: daisizhou
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2021, 11:42:35 am
content: I prefer the old version of Fluke MultimeterBecause it is stable and reliableI think the second-hand price is very reasonable, not very expensive

author: ogden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2021, 12:51:04 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on February 28, 2021, 11:07:34 amNo wonder - because you compare meters of different class. Price, function & ruggedness competitor is Keysight U1272A.

author: mvno_subscriber
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2021, 01:56:58 pm
content: Looking at U1241C (instead of B), it has data logging as well. The Keysights are generally better specced, and have almost double the battery life (at least the C version).However, Fluke seems to have the best auto hold functionality, as well as a pretty good continuity mode. I won't get µA with the Fluke, but I guess I can still use my old $20 Uni-T for that. It seems there are mixed opinions regarding Keysight auto hold - what about continuity?

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2021, 02:04:21 pm
content: Quote from: ogden on February 28, 2021, 12:51:04 pmI wasn’t reviewing the two, just sharing how I don’t entirely trust the Keysight. But moreover, the point is, I’d trustanyFluke over the U1252B.What “class” they’re in has nothing to do with that. Even a cheap meter should be dependable. The U1252B is a more expensive meter then the 87V. Specs-wise, the U1252B bests the 87V in every way, and it’s frequently compared. (And let’s be real, everything gets compared to the 87V, since it’s just such a universal benchmark.) But in practice, the U1252B is just quirkier.The U1241B you suggested is closely related to the U1252B (being the old Escort-derived designs), whereas the U127x series is an unrelated newer design. As such, my concerns about the U1252B are much more likely to apply to the U1241B than anything in the U1272A.Quote from: mvno_subscriber on February 28, 2021, 01:56:58 pmBetween the Keysights and Flukes, in terms of hold and continuity, it’s absolutely no contest, Fluke wins hands down.

author: Terry Bites
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2021, 02:34:17 pm
content: Quality every time. Your health may depend upon it.

author: wizard69
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2021, 03:36:15 pm
content: Quote from: Terry Bites on February 28, 2021, 02:34:17 pmexactly!It is possible to blow up a quality meter but in most cases it will protect the user as it dies. I don't have that confidence with some of the dirt cheap meters.I've used many hand held meters over the years but I still come back to Fluke for professional use. I like to think this way: Fluke's lack fluff, but do what they do very well.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2021, 05:30:08 pm
content: Keysight's continuity on the meters I know (I had a U1233A, currently have a U1273A and a U1282A) are exceptional. The latter two are great meters with autohold and datalogging (many diferent trigger types to choose), however they are expensive if bought new. The slightly cheaper are U1281A and U1271A/U1272A.

author: bingo600
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2021, 05:49:12 pm
content: My 3458 can do itd3fdwrtpsinh7j.cloudfront.net/Docs/datasheet/hp_3458a.pdfBut it seems to be out of your budget/Bingo

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2021, 07:44:56 pm
content: Quote from: rsjsouza on February 28, 2021, 05:30:08 pmIt’s my understanding that the U1230/70/80 series (the post-Escort designs) continuity is much better than the Escort-designed 1241B and the 1250 series, but still not quite as good as Fluke’s.

author: mvno_subscriber
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2021, 07:50:43 pm
content: So I decided, and have now placed an order for a Fluke 175. I seriously considered U1241C, but in the end, it's the basics + safety that really is important to me. Auto hold and the super quick continuity mode will definitely be used and appreciated in my house - can't wait!Fluke also has a "buy a fluke, get a fluke" campaign going on, so I got a free C25 case + some magnetic straps or whatnot, which surprisingly costs quite a bit separately. Nice touch.I'll keep my old DMM for µA measurement, and if it measures somewhat the same as the Fluke, I guess it can be handy to have around.Thanks A LOT for all the help and insight, this ended up totally different from where it started. I've learned much these past days, and look forward to a safer working environment!

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2021, 08:28:49 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on February 28, 2021, 07:44:56 pmIt may be. I never had one of the old Escort designs.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2021, 08:30:07 pm
content: Quote from: mvno_subscriber on February 28, 2021, 07:50:43 pmAs I mentioned before, you will not regret it. Congratulations and good luck in your investment. The hefty purchase price will amortize quite steeply, as it will last you many decades.

author: kallek
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 01, 2021, 06:16:54 am
content: Good choice! I’m very happy with my 175.

author: daisizhou
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 01, 2021, 12:09:49 pm
content: I have a fluke 179C,There is also a 187I prefer to use 187 because its ADC is better

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 02, 2021, 07:00:22 pm
content: Quote from: rsjsouza on February 28, 2021, 08:28:49 pmIt would have to be, since it could hardly be much worse!The U1252B's continuity is terrible, as it apparently needs to autorange to figure out continuity! (Setting a manual range in continuity mode speeds it up a lot, but still not as good as the always-instant, perfectly tuned latching continuity in the Flukes.) I mean, sure, you can use it to verify continuity in a single connection, but for things like scanning down a row of pins to find the one that's connected, it's useless.Dave's review of the U1253A (the OLED version of the U1252A) shows just how bad it is:https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=1093&v=Zele19jm1MQ

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 02, 2021, 11:44:37 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on March 02, 2021, 07:00:22 pmThat is a shame... Continuity is really one of the very useful features of a DMM.Shameless plug to my video of the U1273A's continuity... with a very interesting twist.https://youtu.be/fH6rL2U2oAI

author: mvno_subscriber
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 03, 2021, 11:19:02 am
content: Would just like to give my initial impression of the Fluke 175, as I got it yesterday and started using it. It's a heavy, bulky thing, so I'll keep my existing DMM as well. I might start to understand why some people have too many multimeters.. it tingles the addiction-gene in me!Since I've upgraded from a < $20 Uni-T to a Fluke, a lot of stuff might be completely natural to others, but amazing and new to me. The display updates quicker, but the analog bargraph at the bottom of the display responds in real time, and has already proven VERY useful to detect wobbly circuits, and small dips that I would otherwise need to break out the scope for.Continuity mode is great. Auto hold is better than I hoped for - especially since I can take a reading, hear the meter beep, have a look at the display, take another reading without pressing any buttons, listen for the beep, have a look, measure next part etc.. really speeds up my workflow.Frequency measurement in both DC and AC is great, but what surprised me was the same in current mode! Measuring frequency in amp mode will most definitely be used some day.All in all, a great tool. It doesn't have a plethora of features, and as I have nothing to compare to, it might be totally overpriced. But safety first, and this thing seems solid enough to contain a blast of TNT. Looking forward to measuring high voltage without revising my last wishes every time

author: Doctorandus_P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 03, 2021, 01:28:33 pm
content: I would never ever buy a new fluke.They are (apparently) good meters, but they're too expensive for what they deliver.I would definitely have a close look at the Brymen meters. (Nearly) the same quality as the flukes, but at around half the price.If you're on a budget, and want to experiment, then you can also consider to put some extra MOV's in a reasonable-quatity-but-not-too-great Multimeter.That well-known Youtuber (already mentioned in this thread) that tests Multimeters has done a video about beefing up the protection of DMM's.

author: nightfire
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 03, 2021, 04:11:02 pm
content: Quote from: mvno_subscriber on March 03, 2021, 11:19:02 amWell, congratulations to your new household member!I have used a Fluke 179 for about more than 10 years at several employers, and I really like its robustness and still quite slim case- the 87V is way bigger, and my privately owned agilent U1272a is also bigger and clunkier...To be honest: This one was a verrry lucky shot at ebay, I would not have bought it anywhere near full price.The Fluke 17x series ist quite built to last, I used it up to CAT IV zones (UPS systems with up to 320 kVA output rating), and the magnet holder is very nice in lots of situations you have in an industrial environment.

author: Ground_Loop
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 03, 2021, 08:53:23 pm
content: There is always the option of buying a cheap DMM and a decent high voltage probe like a Fluke 80K-40. Or better yet, a high voltage differential probe like the Micsig.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 05, 2021, 04:46:20 pm
content: Quote from: rsjsouza on March 02, 2021, 11:44:37 pmRight?!? It’s like one of the most fundamental features, you’d think they would have put some effort into it.Quote from: rsjsouza on March 02, 2021, 11:44:37 pmInteresting! I didn’t realize its non-musical mode was completely unlatched.I continue to be impressed by Fluke’s continuity testing, in that it’s latching (includingnegativepulse detection IIRC!), yet completely responsive even with the crappiest probes.

author: mvno_subscriber
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2021, 09:11:13 am
content: Having seen that video, I'm now even more happy to have chosen what I did. Not that I understand why it would be difficult for anyone to make a decent continuity mode (I would assume that's mostly software), but anyhow.. the beeping of that Agilent (Keysight? Is that the same?) meter would have driven me nuts. And that is a meter of in a way higher class!I guess, as in most things in life, everything's a trade off between quality and quantity. Considering my needs and budget, I feel more at rest with my choice now.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2021, 11:11:14 am
content: I personally don't think it is a bad continuity test at all - sure, it is not latched but it is incredibly fast and very useful for specific cases for me where speed is everything.For the continuity test to be fast it must be implemented in hardware - having it in software is too slow to be usable.On a side note, I just noticed two comments on the video saying the meter can't latch because the probes are bad... That is the point of the test, to see if the meter is fast enough to latch under very fast transitions. Oh, well...

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2021, 02:27:30 pm
content: Quote from: mvno_subscriber on March 06, 2021, 09:11:13 amTo some degree I'm sure it is, but it needs to be on the foundation of solid continuity tester hardware. The result of doing it just in software is the U1252 series' horrible continuity testing, which appears to rely on taking a complete resistance reading (meaning waiting for it to autorange, settle, and measure) and then deciding what to do.Quote from: mvno_subscriber on March 06, 2021, 09:11:13 amAgilent spun off its electronics test and measurement division back in 2014, and it became Keysight. (Agilent itself was created when HP — which began as an electronics test and measurement company, not a computer maker — spun off its test and measurement division in 1999.)Quote from: mvno_subscriber on March 06, 2021, 09:11:13 amYou'll have to be a lot more specific, since this thread has so far discussed threeseriesof Keysight meters, of which some (U1241 series, U1250 series) are based on old Escort designs, while others (U1242 series and U1270 series) are completely different designs. The thread has videos of two of those (U1253 and U1273), which behave completely differently, and the U1273 has two completely different continuity modes, which behave very differently.Quote from: rsjsouza on March 06, 2021, 11:11:14 am(Assuming we're talking about your U1273AX) I guess. An unlatched tester is good for some things, but afast, latchedtester allows some uses that can't be done at all with a slow latched tester, and only unreliably with an unlatched tester. For example, identifying a wire (or a short) among a whole row of contacts, like in a telephone patch panel by quickly dragging the probe along the row of terminals. A slow tester will miss it entirely, and an unlatched one will produce only averyshort, scratchy sound, which you may miss if there's background noise.And a really good tester, like a Fluke, can detect intermittentopensby latching onto theopen, and interrupting the solid beep. For example, if you're wiggling a cable to see if it's got an intermittent fault.Quote from: rsjsouza on March 06, 2021, 11:11:14 amYeah, they completely missed the point!If you take a pair of really good gold plated probes (like Probe Master) and short them, they'll make an unlatched tester sound latched, as their contact is so good. But that completely ignores the real-world situations for continuity testing, where the component being tested has been in use and has tarnished contacts, etc.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2021, 11:31:08 pm
content: Tooki, yes, that is my test case as well: fast "rubbing" or "zipping" through a row of contacts. My U1273A (not X) gets anything I throw at it - I don't work in a noisy environment, though. BTW, the U1282A is the same.Ah, one additional aspect of the U1272A/U1273A: you can use it in reverse mode - i.e., to detect a discontinuity as well. I haven't used it, but the flexibility is quite interesting.