Sending Faxes without a land line in late 2018??............. - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Smokey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2018, 09:15:37 pm
content: I just ran into a silly government form that can only be submitted by fax. Now I understand my problem of needing to send one single fax is easily solved by any number of methods including online services or going to a physical mailbox store and having them send it for a fee....but.... I'm a nerd that needs to find the most difficult and convoluted yet technically possible solution, so I started thinking about what that may look like. I did a quick forum search, and this was all I came up with:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/why-wont-fax_s-just-die-already/What I have available is a cell phone, a PC and internet connection (and google voice), and I actually also have a multifunction printer with fax machine (but no land line). I've read that due to the modern compression used in digital voice calls that old school data connections no longer work. But I've also found some places that claim you can sustain a lowish datarate connection through google voice.Some interesting resources are:https://webapps.stackexchange.com/questions/21459/send-receive-faxes-through-google-voice-without-using-a-fax-machineI like the idea of setting up a sip to land line box like this and connecting it to the multi-function, but that means I would need to buy hardware.https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0045RMEPI/It strikes me that an android app should exist that would just generate the tones for a fax and dump that over whatever the voice connection happens to be, but I couldn't find anything like that.Thoughts?

author: kripton2035
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2018, 09:29:40 pm
content: eFax.com 30 days free trial service ?

author: darrellg
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 23, 2018, 09:33:27 pm
content: https://thewirecutter.com/reviews/best-online-fax-services/https://faxzero.com/It's not worth the hassle of trying to do it the other way when it's so simple to just use a free fax service.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 23, 2018, 09:35:17 pm
content: I work for an organisation that is still a heavy user of fax (Government). Anything unclass. goes over fax or email. However almost the entire network is based on Cisco VoIP. I'm not sure what Cisco do different to carrier-grade gear, but fax still seems to work quite well at a minimum of 14.4kbit/sec and up to 33.6kbit/sec for Super-G3 devices (which are most of them on the network).

author: Smokey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2018, 09:46:33 pm
content: Just got back from the mailbox store. $5usd for a 4 page fax. Silly, but I did it anyway because I was there and hopefully it will be another 10 years before I need to do that again. If I had to do this more often then that would not be sustainable.I checked out the free link and it wouldn't have worked due to the 3 page limit.It still strikes me that there is a simple technical solution for which we already have all the pieces but no one has put them together yet.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 23, 2018, 11:37:55 pm
content: Quote from: Smokey on October 23, 2018, 09:46:33 pmI was just thinking that there could be several reasons why fax is still being used, the biggest reason I can think of is that the majority of the population can't be trusted or don't know how to scan a document properly, whether the resolution is crap or they stuff the contrast up. At least with fax, users can shove paper the correct way around and dial number and it'll be received in a decent condition at the other end. You'll probably also find most large organisations and Governments receive faxes directly into a virtual mailbox or email.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2018, 12:01:16 am
content: You can send faxes from some VOIP softphone programs.. Typically you have to turn the pages you want to fax into a PDF.Quote from: Smokey on October 23, 2018, 09:46:33 pm

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2018, 01:49:14 am
content: I have an actual old school fax machine and it does not work over VOIP. My VOIP provider explained there are conflicting requirements between codecs used for voice and for fax and for obvious reason the provider is using voice codec. Also reconfiguring codecs has to be done on both sides client and VOIP switch which is PITA in itself.

author: LaserSteve
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2018, 02:18:49 am
content: I work for a seriously entrenched goverment agency. Fax gets used because:1. Instant time stamped and dated hard copy acceptable to lawyers that fits in a filing cabinet.2. Getting permission to quit fax would require an act of God.3. A bunch of non-computer literate people want to use what they have used for 30 years.4. Can't officially dispose of the machine till it is depreciated and or dead. You would be suprised what you find in some brain dead offices,simply because they are too busy or can't be bothered to do the paperwork. A while back i tossed several thousand dead discrete parts from a electronics repair lab, each neatly taped in the plastic bag tbe replacement came in. Excuse: "The Auditor told me keep everything".5. No on ever told them to stop and what is not directed is not allowed. Which is usually the sign of some one with bad management.Our office staff still has one fax built into the photocopier, only because other agencies are still in the dark ages. We stopped 10 years ago and went to pdf.Speaking personally in this post and not for my employer.Steve

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2018, 02:24:40 am
content: It can work if you deliberately reduce the speed at which your virtual fax machine communicates. This is sort of like what I used to do with my physical fax machine to get it to work with VOIP, I used an RFI filter to slow it down. I forget the settings, they are buried on a hard drive somewhere. Its been more than 10 years since the last time I used it.But basically, you need to look for info on I think "T-38" . I used to be able to fax at a fake 14.400 kilobaud without problems, but anything faster would fail.The goal is reducing the jitter.So using the above info you should be able to find more info.

author: johnh
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2018, 07:26:57 am
content: T-38 Good luck with that. I have seen iads that support it. But, try to send more than handful of page and modems would lose synch.Some of telco grade mgw don't support it.Try sending it over a 4g wireless link , were they don't T38 at all.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 24, 2018, 08:56:05 am
content: Quote from: LaserSteve on October 24, 2018, 02:18:49 amAnd because god doesn't exist, it'll never happen, right?Quote from: LaserSteve on October 24, 2018, 02:18:49 amI feel your pain. I've worked for various agencies within Government for many years. I could tell you some stories and I think only those who have worked in Government would actually believe most of them.I actually worked in an area about 8 years ago that still used an electric typewriter to send and receive incoming and outgoing messages from other branches. I kid you not! This was fairly common even well into the 2000's. When I joined that organisation, I questioned my supervisor at the time to try and discover some logic into why we were using a well and truly outdated bit of gear (which kept breaking... I suspect on purpose a lot of the time). I honestly didn't get it because everyone had their own government email address which was good for even protected material as the message never traversed the internet, even between external agencies.Their only justification was that "it was accountable and traceable". What happened was that each time a message was sent, the next "unique" serial number in the sequence was used, which both ends had. If one person wanted to inquire about the message, they only need quote the message number. Except:- There was no "backup" copy of the message or the associated index. If the page was removed and lost, there goes the message and all record of it from that branch office.- Sometimes people couldn't count so occasionally two messages shared the same number. That made things really confusing.Even after explaining that email kept a permanent record that couldn't be deleted by the end-user and that you could request delivery/read receipts, I was told that the typewriter was staying. I resisted, even developing a Microsoft Word template for the exact same form, but I was told not to use it as it wasn't "official".Eventually the typewriter broke under... ehem... mysterious circumstances and it would be too expensive to repair or replace and that was the end of that.Honestly, you couldn't make this stuff up!

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2018, 10:24:58 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on October 24, 2018, 08:56:05 amYou mean like an honest-to-goodness teletypewriter? I’ve only seen them in museums...

author: Housedad
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2018, 11:00:24 am
content: Quote from: tooki on October 24, 2018, 10:24:58 amNOW I feel old as dirt...

author: petert
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2018, 02:02:56 pm
content: Nothing wrong with having experienced things first hand others just heard about.Not sure where the pride comes from to be born with only the new things available. I find technology from older times much more fascinating, since it's still more understandable.It's great, you get to use more comfortable tools (well it's not always a progress, but overall), yet have a breadth of experience.I am not sure when this change happened, but somehow people want to be a blank slate now. Life is all about making experiences, I honestly don't understand this trend.I used to look back at people older than me with great interest, maybe it's American, idk, though I heard a professor in college complain about the same when he talked to his students about his school time. Personally, I don't get this mindset.Obviously things will have been different, and some will be foreign. But that's the point, right?Why would you just talk about things everybody knows anyways.Another reason why I don't get this group think/generation stuff.Anyways, finished with my rant

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2018, 11:03:13 pm
content: I think you read into my comment a lot of stuff that wasn’t there...I LOVE old tech. Technology history is one of my very favorite things. I totally understand why we stop using things. But with so much of it, it makes me sad that I never got to see it in operation.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 24, 2018, 11:52:34 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on October 24, 2018, 10:24:58 amNo it was a Canon electronic typewriter with the usual ink and correction ribbons.We would insert the pre-printed message form into it, type out the message then call the other party, read out the message for their "pad" and the typed copy would remain as the record.

author: Housedad
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2018, 01:06:32 am
content: Quote from: tooki on October 24, 2018, 11:03:13 pmNah, I read it right. I have a lousy way of expressing ironic sarcasm, sometimes.It just made me realize just how long, long ago it was that I used teletypewriters. I am a bit nostalgic about the old stuff. Simpler times.I loved the Teletype so much that I thought I had gone to heaven when I procured a used DECWriter for my personal use in 1978. (slightly similar machine.) I was able to get a used Calcomp 563 plotter a year later. Even though it is long gone, I still have several rolls of paper for it in my basement. Making the interface circuit and software for 8085 based S100 computer to run it was a major thrill for me back then.I joke with my kids about my age all the time. I'm old enough to be my kids grandfather.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 23, 2019, 02:47:25 am
content: NOTE: This message has been deleted by the forum moderator Simon for being against the forum rules and/or at the discretion of the moderator as being in the best interests of the forum community and the nature of the thread.If you believe this to be in error, please contact the moderator involved.An optional additional explanation is:

author: PTR_1275
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2019, 03:18:34 am
content: Speaking of old tech, one of the motor companies (that makes small motors) I sold and serviced at my last job still had in the dealer license contract that you needed to have a microfiche for viewing the service manuals. This is despite having a software / pdf library that was updated yearly and was installed on the workshop computer.They removed microfiche service manuals from their ordering list in about 2005.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2019, 06:52:14 am
content: I remember using microfische machines in the library when I was a kid. I don't actually remember when the last time I used one of those was, they were kind of neat though.

author: Smokey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2019, 08:45:58 am
content: Quote from: james_s on December 23, 2019, 06:52:14 amYup. I was in that same boat. Just barely caught the end of the typewriter too.

author: GlennSprigg
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 25, 2019, 01:08:32 pm
content: Not to mention the old 'Linotype' hot-lead machines which were still being usedwhen I worked as an elect/tech for the 'Advertiser' NewsPaper many decades ago.

author: GlennSprigg
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 25, 2019, 02:00:11 pm
content: Re: 'Linotype' machines, for theyoung or uninitiated...It was a huge mechanical machine, like this...where you typed what's going on the newspaper, on the keyboard labeled '1'.As you typed each line, it would spit out molded lead bars into a stack, that had the textreversed, as in the following image. (Still hot to touch for a while!!)...When you had a whole page full, they were set up in a large tray, and a 100 ton press wouldimprint a physical copy into a thick sheet (like very dense cardboard), called 'ElephantHide'.In another machine, this was bent into a half circle, and a new mold made with a mixture oflead, tin & antimony. (Limited expansion/contraction when hot/cold). 2 of these would makea complete drum shaped circle, to print the pages on rollers.Now it's all computers, and special photo lithography, but still used not too long ago!!!

author: schmitt trigger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 25, 2019, 03:13:05 pm
content: I worked as a service engineer for Kodak in 1978/9 for their professional business division, which meant microfilm and microfiches.I also have a ton of anecdotes, but instead of high jacking this thread, I think it would be best to open a new thread.

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2019, 05:43:50 am
content: This is actually a good reminder to us technologist thattechnology isn't everything.[Yeah, I researched these back then. I had to explain why EDI was worth doing...]There was a time (around late 1980's to 1990) when fax was everywhere, yet official documents (such as purchase orders, letter of intend...) were send via telex. The world has yet to catch up operationally -- specifically,legal standing of said documents. Telex has been around for decades and by then, the legal requirements were well developed thus better supported by legal codes. Both national and (some) international laws made telex equal to that of a signed letter. So, (depending on where you are) if you get a fax for an order of 100,000 units and the guy backed out of the deal, you have no protection whereas, if you get the same order via telex, you have the legal equivalence of a signed purchase order and can sue the guy for default.EDI started around just after WW II but not as widely used as telex. By 1990, EDI (x12) caught up with telex and then some. EDI gained legal standing with EDI Service Providers being a 3rd party proof. You send an order via EDI, your EDI Service Provider has "data retain rules" and such data can show you did received said document as you claimed. The sender's EDI provider also has collaborating data. So it became easier to deal with legally. Around mid/late 1990, (I think Singapore was first, then Hong Kong and then the rest of the Asean ports) you could do port of entry custom via EDI custom declaration so processing begins before your ship even docked. Email was popular then, but back then if you send Singapore Port of Entry an email of your Bill of Lading and expect them to process your cargo for entry, it would of course go no where.Even today, with all the email, fax, whatever - By law, I have to bring ahard copy for some prescriptionsbefore a pharmacy can fill it where as some prescriptions can legally be handled by fax alone. (That hard-copy required prescription was for some post-operation heavy duty pain killer which contains Opioids). Even my veterinarian(cat doctor) knows email sender id can be faked. So my veterinarian takes (with caller ID) fax prescriptions from my other veterinarian (eye-specialist) but not prescriptions via email. (Yeah, I have my local vet fill the eye-specialist prescription to save the long drive to the specialist.)

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2019, 08:16:26 am
content: Back in the day, Management decided it would be a wonderful thing if manned TV & Radio Broadcast sites sent a daily report to the appropriate State Headquarters.To this end, we were supplied with Telex machines & a tape reperforator.After a while, we discovered that, using the "reperf" we could make up template tapes with the repeating stuff, run them, stopping & adding the appropriate stuff for that day's report, as needed to produce a new tape for that day.We got pretty slick with this & the Telex system was fast & reliable, very rarely needing a 'resend".Management then fell in love with Faxes, & we had to use them instead.This entailed, either using an old "clickety clack" typewriter, or writing the report by hand.The real trouble started when we tried to send the Fax.It would almost always fail on the first try, sometimes on every try.Compared to the almost trouble free Telex, it was a nightmare.

author: Smokey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 03, 2020, 02:40:56 am
content: Welcome from 2020, all you fax users!I need to relocate a physical fax machine to a new office that has no POTS wiring, and they really don't want to have to pull any. It looks like T.38 and an ATA is the way to go.Anyone have a recommendation for an inexpensive provider with good T.38 support?

author: Cyberdragon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 03, 2020, 07:38:46 am
content: Quote from: GlennSprigg on December 25, 2019, 02:00:11 pmThere's one of those operating at the Baltimore Museum of Industry, they would give away free casts of whatever you wanted and even had a bucket of worn out molds they would give away like Halloween candy (all way before Corona of course).

author: newbrain
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 03, 2020, 08:28:19 am
content: Quote from: Smokey on October 23, 2018, 09:15:37 pmHaving worked with the network implementation of fax over mobile networks, I can tell you this is not how it worked or how it can work.The codecs used for voice are so different from what is needed for fax that it would be a pointless and frustrating experiment (the same goes even for simpler stuff, such as DTMF!).What happened for fax (over GSM at least - I'm not even sure it's still supported nowadays!) is that the UE (the phone) would send digital data through the network, and suitable IWUs (interworking units) would generate the fax tones at the border between the mobile network and the fixed one (where voice was sent uncompressed).It was a nightmare of a system for a number of different reasons, e.g., (IIRC): some timeouts in the fax protocols could be shorter than the latency through the network...EtA: Crap, I just noticed it's an old post! Oh well...

author: Smokey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 04, 2020, 02:41:29 am
content: All good. I resurrected it.It sounds like what you are describing is the T.38 system from what I've read. The ATA boxes take the standard fax protocol, convert it to T.38 that can be transmitted, and then converts it back to standard fax on the other end. I'm fine with that system if that's what works now. My problem is just selecting service providers that are reliable.

author: bingo600
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 08, 2020, 06:04:27 pm
content: At one time i had more than 100 VoIP based T.38 fax sites , all running ok w. multipage fax'es.I used Linksys SPA-2102 VoIP ATA units for the fax'es./Bingo

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 08, 2020, 06:22:03 pm
content: A VoIP ATA and a VoIP telco supporting G.711 (a or µ law, whatever is preferred) is sufficient for FAX if you don't want to use T.38.

author: bw2341
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 09, 2020, 07:21:57 pm
content: I only follow VoIP as a hobbyist so take the following with a grain of salt. My only faxing experience is sending a few one-page faxes over G.711u passthrough. I picked up most of this from following the VoIP Tech Chat forum at dslreports.https://www.dslreports.com/forum/voipFor VoIP providers, t38fax.com has come up. From the website, it looks like they try to cater to fax users. There is a list of T.38 providers at voip-info.orghttps://www.voip-info.org/voip-service-providers-t38/For hardware, voice gateways from "professional" suppliers (Patton, Mediatrix, Audiocodes) are supposed to be "better" than ATAs from (amateur?) suppliers (Linksys, Poly/Obihai, Grandstream). If they are, I can't really tell from the datasheets. Unfortunately, few people have the expertise and resources to perform competitive testing of multiple devices for faxing. If your chosen faxing provider has preconfigured hardware available, you should use it.Most brands do not make any quality claims in terms of fax performance. Just "T.38" on the datasheet does not tell you the capability, the quality of the implementation or the version level. For instance, some can fax at 33600 bits/s while others can only do 14400 or 9600. It took some digging though the full user manuals to find that out.I did hear of one brand, Netgen, that claims to be better at faxing. Their Smart ATA product line claims to have a robust T.38 implementation and faxing optimized G.711u passthrough. I haven't seen any reviews that verify these claims.Whatever device you choose, there are settings that may help with faxing. First, you need to disable Call Waiting because that will always disrupt the fax. For T.38 settings, follow the provider's recommendations for speed, redundancy and ECM. Generally, lower speed and more redundancy should help.For G.711u passthrough, any echo cancellation setting should be off. Fax machines have their own methods to deal with echo and the data transmission is mostly unidirectional anyways. Jitter buffer length needs to be as high as possible and any adaptive or adjustable buffer setting needs to be off. This makes sense as fax machines were designed when digital phone lines were always TDM. Dropping or repeating samples to correct buffer overruns and underruns creates audio distortion that was never considered when analog modems were designed. Dynamically changing the buffer length would be even worse.While researching this post I just read about a T.38 faxing option on Lexmark multifunction printers! This would eliminate the analog messiness on your end. Maybe your brand of printer has a similar option available.

author: Smokey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2020, 08:24:32 am
content: Dude. That's a great post. You are my new personal hero for the day!I'll look into the Lexmark multifunctions. There was talk about getting some new hardware anyway.

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2020, 10:25:26 am
content: Quote from: bw2341 on November 09, 2020, 07:21:57 pmLinksys' VoIP ATAs went to Cisco (hint: don't enable https - it's a desaster). Grandstream's ATAs run reliable and provide good performance. I'm able to get about 24kbps with a classic modem via G.711. Fax works also well if there isn't a grumpy fax machine at the other side. But this isn't anything new as we've seen this already back in the analog and ISDN days - some fax machines are picky. You can't go wrong with Audiocodes, but I think Grandstream can compete with them.

author: Ranayna
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2020, 10:59:56 am
content: One tidbit regarding t.38 faxing directly build into printers...I am a phone system admin at a medium sized company, and obviously also have to deal with faxing. Still, in 2020Most of our faxes are going out purely digital from a software fax. That is using a virtual CAPI Port that talks SIP with our Cisco Phone system, that then goes out via an ISDN PRI connection.We also have some hardware faxes using Cisco ATA boxes 187, 189 or 191, connected to the phone system. Let me tell you, the now nearing 15 years in age ATA 187 still works best for this.But on to printers. We have Canon Printers. And those also have the option to do T.38 over SIP directly. Of course this is a licensed option. But the kicker is, not only do you have to pay several 100 Euro for the license to fax over SIP, you *also* need the hardware fax module with the analog ports to actually do thisAn ATA costs around 100 Euro, the license was around 400 Euro if i remember correctly with a similar amount for the hardware module, so even if finnicky, using that inbuilt option is just too expensive.

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 16, 2020, 11:26:14 pm
content: Had to fax the hospital to request records from them. Took ~1hr of trying multiple times, I'm guessing there is just the one fax machine on the other end.But faxzero worked well, $1 for 10 page credits.