Now: TVM802BX  vs   CHMT48VB  - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Rat_Patrol
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 13, 2020, 02:55:24 pm
content: Update: Now I have narrowed it down between the TVM802BX and the CHMT48VBSimilar amount of reels, the Charmhigh IS $1000 more.I figure I will run a cheaper unit until I save up for a much better unit, but hopefully one of these would get me going.PCB max size is 150x200mm, 2 sided. Smallest stuff is an 0805 passive and SOIC ICs. Then just a bunch of 1206 passives and SOT 23 components. Nothing amazing.Need at least 28 feeder strips for 8mm tape plus IC tray space. I would like double the number of feeders, but I want to keep my price as low as possible, even if I upgrade machines later, but if an extra $1k gets me significantly more feeders, I would go for it.I don't need "speed" so much as reliability. I only need to build 6-10 boards per day.Vision is a must.I'm looking to buy within the next few weeks, so I have time to do some homework, but I also need to pull the trigger before long.Been looking at the SmallSMT stuff, Neoden, QIHE.Right now I just want a machine that meets my minimum requirements and is as cheap as possible while still being reliable.Thoughts?

author: Harjit
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 14, 2020, 01:12:09 am
content: Read the SMT blog post by Sparkfun - they make small boards and have a lot of experience in this space.There is this:https://www.crowdsupply.com/citrus-cnc/simplepnpbut I don't see much about feeders.There is the Boardito:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/manufacture/boarditto-pickplace-machine/

author: jmelson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 14, 2020, 11:32:47 pm
content: Quote from: Rat_Patrol on March 13, 2020, 02:55:24 pmI think this is going to be VERY tough, finding a desktop machine with that feeder capacity.QuoteReally? Are you sure you need it? (Although I guess it is so easy to do today, why not?) My Philips CSM84 only has a "beam sensor" forfiducial location, but then uses centering jaws to center parts on the nozzles. It does 0805 and 0603 parts and SOIC just fine.Jon

author: Alicelllly2020
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2020, 07:00:13 am
content: Hi Rat_Patrol,This is Alice from Neoden, our small pick&place machine Neoden3V seems to meet your needs, it has vision system and feeders are included in the price, no need to buy extra.If you have any interests, please feel free to contact me.Contact: Alice LeeEmail: sales4@neodentech.comMob: +86-13588176839Skype: Alice-NeodenBest regards,Alice

author: Ribster
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2020, 08:03:52 am
content: Quote from: jmelson on March 14, 2020, 11:32:47 pmI am happy with my charmhigh unit. Although i developed a custom interface program for it to handle all the placement and feeder stuff.If you can generate your own configuration files for it, it works a treat.

author: Rat_Patrol
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 26, 2020, 04:54:33 pm
content: After doing a lot of looking, please talk me into our out of the TVM802BX unit.For $4000 shipped (not including taxes) from AliExpress, it seems to be a good bang-per-buck for what I need.Can it handle some extra strip feeders for SMD electrolytic caps?IC tray?

author: Kyra
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: April 11, 2020, 11:14:17 pm
content: I'm a little late but the CHMT36VA seems to meet those requirements (unless my brain is skipping over something) for $3300 shipped.Sparkfun talks about it here:https://www.sparkfun.com/news/2586Link to the item:http://www.charmhigh-tech.com/sale-8099321-chm-t36va-dual-vision-cameras-pc-control-smt-pick-and-place-machine-chmt36va.html

author: zerohimself
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 13, 2020, 11:44:47 am
content: Im in the same boat.. looking for a machine. Everything I can gather tells me either get a giant GSM or CSM and fix it, or go for the chmt 36VA or the 48VB. There more and more I look at it - for future expansion, the CHMT560P4 seems to be the best bang for the buck - but it takes a lot more bucks.Personally if I go for the cheaper units, I would rather go a little overboard and get the 48VB rather than get the 36va and realize my next new board needs 3 more feeders than I have. The big machines have the benefit of changing feeders more easily than the smaller "desktop" models.The smallsmt machines look promising on their specs, but can easily cost 2-3 times as much. Since I haven't found a review or anyone really taking about them, i don't know if you get what you pay for.I have heard a lot of talk and reviews about the chmt machines. And you definitely get what you pay for - or at least in there terms of little quirks, but overall no one is screaming don't get this. Everyone seemed to indicate it was an ok desktop pnp. Maybe not the best, but it gets the job done - if you don't have unrealistic expectations.I have heard good things about the kayo machines as well, but they seem like they may even be more costly than the other options.Once I make my decision and get my machine, I'll be happy to report back with my experience.

author: Rat_Patrol
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 13, 2020, 03:03:52 pm
content: I'm still not sure what to do.Especially with the pandemic, I don't want to spend more than I have to, but on the other hand, I don't have time to buy cheap stuff I have to constantly fiddle with to get/keep going. I need a "set and forget" machine to run the same 2 boards over and over.

author: Rat_Patrol
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 14, 2020, 02:52:21 pm
content: I have narrowed it down between the TVM802BX and the CHMT48VBSimilar amount of reels, the Charmhigh IS $1000 more.I figure I will run a cheaper unit until I save up for a much better unit, but hopefully one of these would get me going.

author: Reckless
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 14, 2020, 04:13:29 pm
content: Personally, I dont have faith in chinese pick n place machines. If anything the only brand I might trust is Neoden. But you have to be careful which model as feeders have issues and is still a hobby machine. If any of these chinese machines worked you would see rave reviews. I feel they do false advertising claiming they work duping gullible americans out of their money.If anyone is planning to make money on these machines why not spend a little more and get the right tool? I recommend GSMs if you have space and they cost less than chinese machines. Otherwise a good Yamaha is a more expensive option. I was in the same boat, almost pulled the trigger on each of these companies charmhigh, kayo. I got a Juki first, then a gsm, then a yamaha, then Fuji. I needed serious speed for 0402 (each panel of mine has 2000+ 0402) so Fuji has been my favorite at 40k cph. I ended up getting 2 of them.

author: Ribster
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 14, 2020, 08:44:52 pm
content: Quote from: Reckless on April 14, 2020, 04:13:29 pmI think there is a range of p&p machines for the need.I personally would never get a CHMT48VB or TVM802BX because of the feeder setup.But, i think the price difference will make these machines a good option for a lot more people.I think the step up from these types is my CHMT560P4. Since it has yamaha style feeders, which give me the flexibility to do my job. As this is my day job.As a hobby, going with yamaha style feeders is overkill.Can these CHMT48VB or TVM802B place 12mm / 16mm / 24mm wide reels ?

author: Rat_Patrol
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 15, 2020, 12:16:10 am
content: Quote from: Reckless on April 14, 2020, 04:13:29 pmDo you have a link to these "GSMs". If that is an acronym, I am not familiar with it

author: zerohimself
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 15, 2020, 07:00:00 am
content: Quote from: Reckless on April 14, 2020, 04:13:29 pmI tend to agree with you on some points.. however i don't see anybody posting about them not working.. as a matter of fact, i've only heard "meh" about the CHMT48VB's/36VA's. It seems they get the job done, but no one is really impressed at the end of the day. And i didn't even watch one of their videos until about 2 weeks into the research of these machines. I talked to a few people who had the 36/48's, and no one had anything bad to say about them.I would love to get the GSM right now, unfortunately, in my current workshop, i don't trust the floor enough to install a 6000lb machine, nor can i get the owner to sign off on letting me do it!!(lets not talk about what i would have to do to get it through the door as well!!!)Quote from: Ribster on April 14, 2020, 08:44:52 pmSo from my understanding, the 48VB has some dedicated feeders for wider reels, as stated in their Specifications listed on several sites (see image).If I had the possibility to get one of the GSM's for this workshop, I would jump on it. In the meanwhile, i'm opting for the CHMT560P4, due to the better feeder system. I'm really hopping the increase from the CHMT48VB is worth it, although i am setting my expectations much lower than I would for a used GSM, that I have heard quite a few people raving about at this point. If the 560P4 does it's job, and allows me to grow enough, i'll revisit it in the new workshop i'll likely be in next year.

author: Reckless
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 15, 2020, 08:44:19 am
content: Quote from: Ribster on April 14, 2020, 08:44:52 pmI wish that were true and china was making it. There are smaller european machines that come closer to fitting hobby machine but the ones people here are writing about aren't it. I do hope they produce it in a few years and to me yamaha feeders are perfect (just pricey). Whatever it is it has to actually work.Quote from: zerohimself on April 15, 2020, 07:00:00 amThe GSM solution is for people trying to get into SMT business and have the space. Its not for everyone. Yamaha (phillips/assembleon) and Samsungs are a bit smaller but much more expensive. Older Essemtecs will easily fit the bill for small home/hobby machines as well as older jukis. After personally tinkering with older jukis I dont recommend not having a camera (they can both be found used under $2k). The difference between them is like driving a moped vs an actual motorcycle. GSMs are like old harleys (american made/last forever). In my book they pioneered the first mass produced pick place machine. They were selling 100s of them per month from late 80s all the way until early 2000s and flooded the market.The biggest thing most of you are not understanding (and I didn't) that in order to build a pick n place machine you need to prove it in the field. Until you are servicing and troubleshooting 1000+ machines and finding issues and constantly correcting them you can't build this product. Its not like designing a shoe, there are too many unique applications and situations that have to be incorporated into the product. Thats why Motorolla partnered with Universal Instruments built, designed, specified and ordered 100 units per month to build the startac phone. Its a beautiful story that should be properly highlighted in engineering design. It takes real R & D to do that and that is why major manufacturers have the funds to produce such products. Thats also the reason that chinese factories do not want chinese machines and dont trust them. As I get older I begin to recognize how important intention, thinking, approach, even culture go into how something is designed. Without proper heart you cant design an engineering marvel. You need companies who believe and stand behind their products. Trying to take short cuts wont help you arrive to the destination.FYI all the specifications and technical data provided by chinese manufacturers take them with a grain of salt. They don;t mean anything if machine does not work the way its supposed to.

author: 48X24X48X
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 15, 2020, 03:47:27 pm
content: There are also the ZB3545TP from Zhengbang (38 Yamaha Feeder) and TVM925 from QiHe (also 38 feeder). Both are bench top machine. The ZB3545TP used to be only USD4500 but I'm not sure why it is now listed as USD6K (might need to ask them). TVM925 is listed at USD5K. But, you would need to add the feeder price too and 38 might be too little for a lot of people. I have personally seen the ZB3545TP and it is not a very small machine but very well built. If you watch their tutorial on Youtube, it looks like an easy to use to machine.

author: nisma
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 15, 2020, 05:25:08 pm
content: I have the chmt-36 added one feeder block and one reel peeling Holder+stepper motor from robotdigg, cut streps is mounted on MDF plates using double side tape. Electronic is replaced with grbl and cheap x86 tablet.The 3d printed 3 nozzle holder is mounted on the both sides of the small tray.On the PCB holder 3d printed (only walls) part holder for loose feeder was glued on and a 6x small 30x65mm milled or printed exchangable tray/loose feeder can be added.The PCB holder rails is shorted and the plate was drilled and tapped each 25mm. Further a slot cut for the tape. Instead of the laser pointer endoscope camera was added and on the right side the same holder and endoscope was added. Uplooking hd camera was added too with illumination. The cover was removed cut slot on both sides for the dispenser and the camera on the right side. On both sides on the moving slide a holder for electric dispenser and two heaters was added. One is for solder paste and the other for glue. One arduino micro connected to rs422 controls heater, vac sensor, homing switch, prick . LEDs for illumination and for cameras,Led for vac and power for USB cameras,4x pwm for heater and 4 temperature sensors.The Prick is raised 7mm and ALU cut. Feeders are raised too. This allows placing 12.7mm parts like Ethernet ports.Filter was added to the air tubes, nozzle holder was replaced with auto changer from robotdigg. Display was removed and replaced with buttons for movement and some other functions including some LEDs.SD card was added.Price 2500 euro +import tax.

author: Mangozac
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 15, 2020, 10:54:14 pm
content: Quote from: Reckless on April 15, 2020, 08:44:19 amReckless, how many Chinese machines have you actually used? I don't doubt that you have some very useful knowledge about pick and place machines but unless you've had more direct experience then I think some of your comments can be considered disingenuous.I've personally seen several different mid-range Chinese machines in operation (at an exhibition and in Chinese factories) and I've been very impressed. I'm not talking Neoden (I haven't seen one in person but there are design aspects of their machines I don't like). I've spoken with several companies running Kayo machines and they are very pleased with them. Even the machines that are the topic of this thread are considered to be good valuefor their intended market segment. It's horses for courses and if you don't need to be placing 50k components per hour there is very good value for money in the Chinese offerings. Of course they can't compete with a new Yamaha machine but at 1/10th of the cost they aren't intending to: it's a different market segment.Now the caveat to my above comments is that in the US there are plenty of 20 year old used machines going for very feasible prices, so if one has the space then they're certainly an option worth considering (although keep in mind that support and spare parts can be a big headache). Unfortunately in most other countries used machines are rare and still go for considerable prices, so buying new mid-range from China is really the most sensible option.

author: 1276-2449-1-ND
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 15, 2020, 11:35:16 pm
content: I have had the CHMT36VA for a couple years now in a production environment. Best purchase ever. 3D printed 20 extra feeders for almost 50 feeders total. I redesigned all of our products to use a common set of components so no feeders need to be changed between product runs. After a couple months of tweaking during runs, the feed reel clutch has never needed further adjustment -- it just works.

author: Reckless
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 16, 2020, 04:19:24 am
content: I have a few chinese machines including robotdigg solder robot which I think is a viable alternative to expensive apollo seiko systems. I have had awful cheap chinese ovens, solder pots, custom stencils, solder paste, and have heard of plenty other bad equipment: wave solder, selective solder, etc. We call it the chinese curse, it works for a few days and breaks. I do love when I get something from china that works and is cheap. Im buying 50 wire cutters tonight that last longer than others and save me $33/each.I havent had a chinese pick and place yet but nearly bought a few a number of times. They are more expensive than $1 million dollar Fuji/Universal/Yamaha machines that I have been buying.I fully agree in some parts of the world chinese machines are better suited. I would like to point out for marginal amount of money one can buy a much more sophisticated industrial system and actually run a proper business.In america chinese machines dont hold any value and generally scrapped for their weight in metal ($100/ton) as nobody will buy them. I personally seen a top of the line brand new in the crate chinese 8 top and 8 bottom zone oven be scrapped for junk as well a few used chinese pick place (SMTMax) and used ovens. Over here quality and reliability are much more important. One screw up can cost more than money saved.

author: SMTech
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 16, 2020, 07:55:15 am
content: Quote from: Reckless on April 16, 2020, 04:19:24 amOur new oven is built in China, but its an American brand (Heller) who make a no-nonsense, basic by some standards entry level product and in theory its a US design and has the the backing of a decent installer/reseller and Heller itself. Trustworthy Chinese brands in the field seem to be JT (who I believe make Juki Ovens), SunEast and a few others; their entry price point is very similar to a Heller but with lesser warranties but perhaps a few extra features (you might get full blower control as standard instead of an option, maybe some flux control/filtering even on the smaller models etc). There is a tier below them however & they will sell you an oven for 30% less than the above and these one are where all the horror stories come from. Poorly built, no support (or not to the standard we expect in production), design changing on the fly on the factory floor, heaters/blowers that fail & factories that vanish or drop their reseller leaving them and their client high and dry.

author: Reckless
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 16, 2020, 08:20:17 am
content: Fully agree. As an American manufacturer who has trained chinese factories in proper product design and manufacturing techniques I know China is capable of making good ovens when they have proper R&D support. It's the lesser known companies who don't have this that are the problem. The only issue becomes IP. Some companies protect it and some don't. I believe awesome soap operas can be made with employee poaching and multiple family members breaking off to form their own companies taking the IP with them. Every industry seems to have their story.

author: Mangozac
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 16, 2020, 09:24:18 pm
content: Quote from: SMTech on April 16, 2020, 07:55:15 amAre you able to give an indication of what that price point actually is for those trustworthy Chinese brands?

author: SMTech
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 16, 2020, 10:18:00 pm
content: In the UK/Europe they start around £30K, for ~6/7 zones they don't seem to make smaller ones, to rival something like a Heller 1500 for instance (but then neither do most of the established brands for full production). Plenty of western brands operate in the smaller ~4 zone oven market tho' like TWS & Essemtec making quite popular kit.

author: Mangozac
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 16, 2020, 10:59:03 pm
content: Quote from: SMTech on April 16, 2020, 10:18:00 pmWow that's FAR higher cost than those I inspected at the electronics assembly exhibition in Shenzhen in November! Mechanically, I found the quality of the machines under USD20k (8 zone) to be very well made but there's obviously no way to visually assess the quality/longevity of the heaters/blowers. Direct from the manufacturer I'm looking at US$8k for a no frills 6 zone with mesh and chain and PC control.The comments I received from several manufacturers were that anything less than 8 zones seems to be a European thing these days. In China the vast majority they sell are 8+ zones.

author: Reckless
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 16, 2020, 11:53:07 pm
content: I love my essemtec 3 zone oven. It can take a 7+ zone oven down especially for the money. The only thing a 7 zone might beat mine on is output. Im still able to pump out 700 letter size pcbs in 8 hours (3000 components per pcb). No maintenance, no issues, no cleaning. I have 5 of them currently. My SMT tech loves vitronics ovens as they dont give issues but loves essemtec next. He runs boards for the auto industry and needs super throughput. We make such small manufacturing lines and easy to setup and use.

author: Mangozac
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2020, 12:03:36 am
content: Quote from: Reckless on April 16, 2020, 11:53:07 pmI presume you don't do any RoHS then? My understanding is that you want to have a minimum of 6 zones for a good lead-free profile?

author: Reckless
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2020, 07:16:32 am
content: We only do lead free, never done leaded profiles. 3 zones, 84" is more than enough. Never had an issue with unleaded solder paste. Seriously the Essemtec is perfect for our needs. Every SMT tech that has come through has marveled how well it performs. The idea of 7 zones is foreign to us.

author: SMTech
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2020, 07:23:44 am
content: I have 7 zones, I run all sorts of shape and size of board, would categorically not want to attempt it with 3 zones while maintaining a decent PWI by having a profile that hits every metric specified by the paste. If every board we made however was capable of being built with a chip-shooter, then all the tricky stuff wouldn't apply and 4/5 zones is what we used to run and that works perfectly well.

author: SMTech
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2020, 07:35:52 am
content: QuoteSure, but your 8K oven if not purchased direct; by the time its packed up, freighted, installed and has a re-seller taking some commission becomes the 20K or more oven.With all the big brands, in the unlikely event I have an issue I can have local or worldwide support whenever I want and a field engineer on site the same day.On the whole in manufacturing we don't care for the we can fix it ourselves with some parts in the mail approach, at least with key equipment, downtime ruins schedules and costs way more money than you save by choosing something cheap. £30-40K ovens are just the tip of the iceberg, REHM are doing you a super special deal if you pay nearer 60K, ITW would be selling you their most basic Electrovert model.

author: Reckless
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2020, 08:37:02 am
content: Quote from: SMTech on April 17, 2020, 07:23:44 amYes, my experience is limited to smaller components and chips but believe the Essemtec 3 zone oven is still capable of much larger components. Not a single bad review or complaint I have heard on the oven in terms of functioning. I have heard of one issue running large heatsinks that would get caught by the conveyor and fall down and be a pain to get to. Have to unscrew the top of the oven but I sold them a brand new in the crate Heller 1500EXL to replace it.

author: Mangozac
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2020, 10:40:53 pm
content: Quote from: SMTech on April 17, 2020, 07:35:52 amThose are fair comments and I will admit that I tend to forget that in terms of freight cost and support it helps to be in a similar time zone to China. Ultimately, like every other discussion with machines, it's all about matching cost and requirements.

author: ttt
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 21, 2020, 12:12:09 am
content: I bought a TVM802BX last year. It works, after the usual struggle with the initial setup. Once your reels are dialed in it's fairly reliable.But, if I had to do it again I would probably buy the CHMT48VB:- Having the reels in the back is a serious PITA as you need to clear space around the entire machine. You can put the CHMT48VB against a wall with no issue I believe.- The reels in the back have no feedout for the used tape. You need to pass them under the PCB. This causes tape to bunch up sometimes, especially with plastic tape which can get snagged up.- The software is meh and full of bugs. From what I have seen on YouTube the software which comes with CHMT48VB is slightly better designed. Still hot garbage probably :-)- The default settings for the up camera are pretty bad. Changing that is non-trivial as you need to open the machine and play around with a header.- The feeding seems smoother and faster on the CHMT48VB compared to my TVM802BX. Based on YouTube videos I have seen.

author: jpshea
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: July 12, 2020, 11:27:17 pm
content: A quick dumb question re Z axis limits on desktop placers.NeoDen3V "max height" = 5mmTVM802BX "Max Z Moving range" = 12.5mmso I'm presuming that something likehttps://au.mouser.com/ProductDetail/667-EEE-FK1V101XP(Panasonic 100u electrolytic) @ 7.7mm H couldn't be picked up by the NeoDen3V?Regards,JPS

author: 48X24X48X
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2020, 05:12:04 am
content: I remember seeing a video somewhere on the 3V that are able to do that but with a custom modified nozzle.Higher Z movement range does not equate to be able to handle higher component height.There are also limit of the feeder drain depth unless you are picking them up from a tray.

author: GerardG
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2020, 10:16:19 am
content: Neoden4 can place 7mm from the JEDEC tray position and 5mm from the feeders.The height of components is determined by the travel height over the conveyor rails.I have seen Neoden4 place 10mm high capacitors when the capacitors are not in the tray and the conveyor is not used.It is very important to ask the right question and not only compare the datasheets.

author: qihe_kim
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2022, 06:01:49 am
content: Hello, all users of Qihe SMTQihe team have updated support on the official website to support you to quickly find the TVM802 or other modelsand please contact customer service to update the software .Linkhttps://www.qhsmt.com/supportAlso add customer case sharing section for friends who interested in the machines .Welcome to subscribe qihe team via social media .