Do we have a Fusion thread? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: metrologist
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2022, 03:12:16 pm
content: Latest.https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/nuclear-fusion-lawrence-livermore-laboratory-b2243247.html

author: metrologist
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2022, 03:20:29 pm
content: And then bringing it back down.https://www.sciencemediacentre.org/expert-reaction-to-fusion-announcement-from-the-lawrence-livermore-national-laboratory/

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2022, 11:47:45 pm
content: Toured that sucker...circa 1972...National Ignition Facility, or some such name.BIG oval beams of light, for the 'confinement' pressures needed...35 cm diameter.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 14, 2022, 12:37:13 am
content: The announcement was important: first report of positive energy gain from the laser light output to the fusion reaction.The results are not good enough: the laser efficiency (electrical power in to laser output) is still well below unity and kills the overall efficiency.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 14, 2022, 12:37:49 am
content: Can we mix that with some hydrogen though?

author: metrologist
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 14, 2022, 02:12:57 am
content: Quote from: TimFox on December 14, 2022, 12:37:13 amIs it 2.5 - 1.8 - 500 MJ efficient?

author: Geoff-AU
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 14, 2022, 04:10:23 am
content: Yep, interesting result but still well below unity considering efficiencies, and there is no indication of how you'd do this in extremely rapid fashion.ITER is still the most plausible practical fusion power station. The NIF laser method may find some niche applications which require a very brief pulse of energy.

author: BrianHG
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 14, 2022, 05:55:58 am
content: Quote from: Geoff-AU on December 14, 2022, 04:10:23 amThis is how it appears to be.However, I would also like to see development of compact He-3 fusion reactors which use the escaping protons during it's fusion reaction to pump a magnetic fields generating electricity directly. (no steam turbine) Sadly, this probably wont work and we also would also need a reliable He-3 fuel source.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 14, 2022, 07:40:23 am
content: Fusion has been a decade off for my entire life. I've kind of lost interest in it, although if somebody does actually get a practical system running it will be interesting.

author: JohanH
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 14, 2022, 08:10:27 am
content: Scientifically this is worth noting. But there is no indication this could ever evolve into a real application, yet.ITER is still not good enough. It might have about zero net output. It's important though to show the feasibility of continuous operation. The question after that is do we afford scaling it up and can we manage the effort to build a larger reactor with positive net output.Keeping an eye here on theWendelstein 7-X stellarator...

author: RoGeorge
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 14, 2022, 08:29:01 am
content: It's good progress but not good enough to produce energy yet.My understanding is that it gets more thermal energy out than the optical energy pumped in by the lasers. However, the lasers takes 10-100 times more energy to output that light needed for fusion. Overall the whole installation needs 100 times more energy to put in, than it gets out.QuoteSource:https://www.nytimes.com/2022/12/13/science/nuclear-fusion-energy-breakthrough.html

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 14, 2022, 09:32:49 am
content: Are there any promising alternatives to the NIF lasers that combined with improvements in efficiency could make NIF a practical demonstration of power generation? Some lasers can reach 60-70% efficient, but it's hard to imagine they could supply the pulse power required.It does look like they have begun to make progress:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Ignition_Facility#/media/File:NIF_output_over_10_years.pngBut, it's still likely to be at least a few decades from commercial power production.

author: Infraviolet
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 14, 2022, 11:06:31 pm
content: Very good news, a great way to solve all the climate bothers without resorting to diasastrous (and ineffective) draconian measures. If only governments and corporations would put their money* in to getting fusion fully up and running rather than burning it on pointless bureaucracy.Nuclear fusion really is the energy source of the future, and with this latest improvement it might be a viable energy source within the next two decades, though part of me suspects tokamak (ITER) or projectile type (First Light) fusion reactors might be more ideal for commercial power generation than NIF's lasers. I've always been a bit mystified as to how they would get the energy out and in to electrical form from a tiny pellet being collapsed at the centre of a large chamber.I think we can now call this the break-even point for the fusion process itself, more energy came out of the pellet than went in to it, but clearly there is much work yet to be done for break-even in the full process from powering the lasers to extracting useful work.*I saw a statistic that the US populations spends more per year on dog grooming than the US invests in to fusion research.

author: BrianHG
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 15, 2022, 12:05:30 am
content: Quote from: Infraviolet on December 14, 2022, 11:06:31 pmThis.....Hydrogen and it's isotopes which makes fusion easier radiate a good chunk of their energy in spare neutrons flying out as well as the remainder of the fusion products. Block these in a barrier material/fluid to capture the heat. This shield barrier which will become neutron rich isotope is what eventually becomes radioactive for a good 50 to 100 years.Helium 3 fusion radiates out protons. Protons can be magnetically steered and drive a magnetic field to directly produce electricity as well as the ability of having no radioactive byproducts. Helium 3 may be given off by our sun and our moon's surface may be peppered in it, but on earth, it is super-rare as it breaks apart in an oxygen rich environment.(I'm not an expert, but I hope I got most of my specs correct.)

author: boz
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 15, 2022, 12:07:58 am
content: Sabin Hossenfelder did a great recent video on why we need to get magnitudes beyond break-even before we can do anything realistic (Hint Still a way to go)

author: BrianHG
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 15, 2022, 12:18:16 am
content: How a Helium 3 fusion reactor works: (American funded)Boring Helion program results so far:

author: BrianHG
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 17, 2022, 01:09:25 am
content: Proper explanation of what was achieved at the National Ignition Facility:

author: jonpaul
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 17, 2022, 01:25:46 am
content: mostly news noise.See IEEE SPECTRUM article on the realization of fusion by laserAs always we are 30 years off..IF IT EVER WORKS.....just another government waste of moneyJon

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 17, 2022, 01:31:16 am
content: The amount of money the government is spending on this is minuscule in the grand scheme of things. I think it's worth pursuing, there are lots of things that never would have happened at all if people had decided it was a waste of money to try because they would never work. I'd rather spend money on fusion than on bombing random countries.

author: jonpaul
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 17, 2022, 06:04:43 am
content: Rebonjour, was at LBL 1967, visits to LLNL in1980s,LLNL laser program goes back to Star wars SDI, conceived by Dr Edward Teller and funded with backings of President Ronald Reagan.I toured predicesor Shiva/Nova, fantastic machine.For perspective, one megajoule energy released if a jelly doughnut is throughly burned!Even DOE, LLNL admits " wall plug efficiency" of NIF is nil as lasers are ((< 1% eff.Need many shots per sec, at this time we have a shot every month at best.True purposes of LLNL NIF is classified nuclear defense tests. The fusion power is a façade to make the nuclear device research more palateble to the idiots in Washington DC. NIF is indeed a tiny part of the $ is in the bloated and politically controlled 1T$ USA défense budget.Easy solution to clean cheap energy..Voilà !Conventional nuclear fission reactors! (70% power in France, no issues). We will see a working SSPS long before a NIF type working utilitaire power plant.From an optimist in the nuclear age!Jon

author: EPAIII
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 17, 2022, 08:11:38 am
content: How close are we to fusion power?I believe the generally accepted number is 93 million miles / 149 million Km.I don't know what the big deal is all about. Earth has been running on fusion power for billions of years.

author: JohanH
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 17, 2022, 10:46:12 am
content: Quote from: EPAIII on December 17, 2022, 08:11:38 amThat's quite correct. There are also calculations that if humanity increases electricity and energy usage produced by fossil and nuclear, in a few hundred years the heat from all this will begin to affect the temperature on earth. The only way to not heat up the planet is to use existing energy that is transferred here by the sun, i.e. convert it using solar panels, wind turbines, water and wave turbines, photosynthesis (?). Now I don't know how this plays together with the climate change from green house gas. Partly the effect is probably reduced when transitioning to more climate friendly energy sources. But if all energy sources were replaced with nuclear fusion, there could be a problem in the future.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 17, 2022, 07:46:43 pm
content: Yeah it's a very common misconception that what we need is a "clean" and unlimited source of energy (I mean, apart from the sun, which is one and has served Earth very well until now, but there will always be limits in how we can leverage it.)If we ever get to that point and really master nuclear fusion, it will likely NOT be good news for the future of humankind. If it's really virtually unlimited (and thus, eventually very cheap), we're just gonna end up blowing ourselves up one way or another. It's not even sci-fi or pessimism, it's mainly just basic thermodynamics.It is sad to see that most people, including the world "leaders", do not understand anything about energy, yet keep talking about it.

author: BrianHG
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 18, 2022, 02:48:54 am
content: Wow, see Helion's actual 6th generation reactor.Real Engineering got the first public glimpse and full explanation:

author: JohanH
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 18, 2022, 10:39:19 am
content: Quote from: BrianHG on December 18, 2022, 02:48:54 amThe concept is very intriguing, to generate electricity directly from the magnetic field, without heat transfer, steam and turbines. Pessimistically, there is always the n:th +1 generation prototype to wait for.

author: twospoons
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 18, 2022, 09:24:16 pm
content: While its easy to throw shade on all the fusion efforts going on around the world, its important to remember that fusion is a very difficult nut to crack. Every single experiment yields more knowledge about the subject, knowledge which can be leveraged in future efforts. Look at Helion: they've had to make part of their reactor 25% bigger because an earlier experiment showed their predictions about the plasma were incorrect.The Helion concept is intriguing, and looks promising considering how far they've already come.There must be other concepts that have yet to be explored thoroughly, but haven't through lack of funding. Thats likely the biggest fault with ITER: its so big its sucking up all the money that could be used exploring multiple avenues to fusion.

author: BrianHG
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 18, 2022, 09:54:30 pm
content: Quote from: twospoons on December 18, 2022, 09:24:16 pmCareful, ITER funding so far after all the years of development is less than the investment in what was funneled into the Tokyo 2020 Olympic Games. It's that no one gives an F about fusion and how much money we should actually be investing in it. These small startups based on the tech required are all operating on a shoe-string budget.The tip-top funded AAA video games have a better budget.

author: daqq
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 18, 2022, 10:34:17 pm
content: Quote from: BrianHG on December 18, 2022, 09:54:30 pmI have to agree with the sentiment that we aren't investing nearly enough into these endeavors when compared to far more frivolous stuff. It hit me recently, through a friend I know how much time gets invested in really really useless gimmicky gadgets at bigcorp... And it's a LOT.If we multiply the time invested by very good engineers and scientists by the amount of gimmicky gadgets, we get a really large number. I can't help but wonder where we would be if we redirected, say, 20% of the efforts and resources going into the development of newer TVs or IoT kettles and put them into something serious.

author: metrologist
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2022, 09:14:18 am
content: Sabine finally addressed the NIF achievement

author: JohanH
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 24, 2023, 07:35:06 am
content: Someone debunking the Helion concept totally:

author: dmills
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 24, 2023, 10:56:25 am
content: NIF spends about 10% of its shots on fusion, the rest are weapons research and nuclear stewardship.I tend to look at a lot of the startups and figure most of them are investment cons one way or another, I mean there is some good research being done, but that is a side effect of the money games.I like the MTF general approach, but some of the startups around it are WEIRD in their approaches (Mechanically driven shockwaves in a lead first wall)?One interesting observation is that a viable fusion plant has to operate with plasma condition many times more extreme then the core of the sun. When you do the numbers, the sun manages about 276W per cubic meter in the core, which is sufficient because the square cube law is a bastard at that kind of scale, that is NOT going to do it for a ground based power plant!

author: Circlotron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 24, 2023, 11:14:34 am
content: Quote from: Geoff-AU on December 14, 2022, 04:10:23 amSeeing it would have to be repetitive, I wonder if anyone has dared to suggest a very big piston, cylinder and crank?

author: BrianHG
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2023, 05:05:48 am
content: Latest private fusion startups: