Humidity/rust issues on a garage - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: R005T3r
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2016, 01:29:59 pm
content: Hi,I'm having a lot of troubles with humidity and rust in my garage since I have some cutter sets and other fairly expensive electronics tools that suffer the same issues: after 1 month they starts rusting... No matter what it is, what materials are involved or what: they literally start pitting and then they starts rusting.Considering:1. at night my parents want the car inside the garage, so it's always parked there and the temperature rise is noticeable even without a thermometer2. the humidity is terrible, in rainy days there's little difference between inside and outside, and in summer you can't even stay there for too long: you can fell unconscious in that environment, and not because of the heat3. there's a ventilation window, facing a garden (and bugs love coming during summer), always opened because I have a fume extractor (and there's no way to do a hole on the glass nor in the near wall) first, and second I need to have that window opened otherwise there's not enough air circulation.4. I solved the concrete dust problem by making a tiled floor and by treating the walls with proper chemicals. I've also treated any kind of wood furniture with a sealing agent, and it works very effectively.I really don't know what to do in order to fight this issue... I don't even know if the problem is humidity related or what's going on... any suggestion?

author: MosherIV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2016, 01:39:16 pm
content: What kind of roof does this garage have?Is the roof insulated?Large temperature swing can cause condensation, which will lead to rust.Try insulating the roof.Also, look for sealed containers/boxes to store your more precious/delicate stuff if you must store it in the garage.

author: R005T3r
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2016, 01:43:46 pm
content: My garage is embedded in my home. it's reinforced concrete.

author: BradC
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2016, 01:46:25 pm
content: Quote from: MosherIV on October 25, 2016, 01:39:16 pmDoesn't even have to be a sealed container. Put the tools in a box with a bit of scrunched up oily rag. I keep all my measuring tools (verniers, feelers & mics) in a wooden box with some old oil rags. Even in the most hostile environments I've not had rust issues.There are other neat tricks for tools you can strip down to metal only, but a light oil is a good start.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2016, 01:55:32 pm
content: Try getting measurements of the temperature and humidity through the day and night at, say, hourly intervals. Do the same outside. That will help you (and us) understand what is happening.Is there direct water ingress through the walls, floor or from a leaking pipe? Do you ever see water condensed on anything? Is there anything venting damp air into the room, e.g. a tumble drier or cooker?Condensation occurs when humid air comes into contact with something cold; the air's temperature is lowered below the dew point, and water condenses out. There are two simple ways to combat condensation: increase the temperature or - assuming it is less humid outdoors - increase the ventilation. If those fail, then you have to use dehumidifiers, which are essentially refridgerators running backwards; they cool the air and collect the condensation.

author: R005T3r
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2016, 02:30:48 pm
content: How am I supposed to measure humidity? Is there a humidity/temperature datalogger or something like that?

author: R005T3r
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2016, 02:45:16 pm
content: Quote from: BradC on October 25, 2016, 01:46:25 pmYes, for tools, but what about components like transistors and stuff like that?So, according to your though I should make a sort of cabinet/container with all my tools and an oily rag in order to have a good moisture insulation... That would deal with most of the tools for sure, but I should find also a way to treat the environment as well, after all It's almost impossible to stay there for more than half an hour during the summer...

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2016, 02:55:36 pm
content: Quote from: R005T3r on October 25, 2016, 02:30:48 pmOh good grief. Buy one or make one. Use google.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 25, 2016, 09:51:03 pm
content: Quote from: R005T3r on October 25, 2016, 02:30:48 pmFor a low cost option, you can buy cardboardhumidity indicator cards. I use these inside my pelican cases along withre-usable silica gel packsto store camera equipment and lenses.

author: lowimpedance
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2016, 11:01:05 pm
content: As for the open window , a fly screen will keep the bugs out.

author: dave_k
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 26, 2016, 12:02:00 am
content: Quote from: R005T3r on October 25, 2016, 01:29:59 pmEasy - install a air conditioner. They are very good at removing humidity from the air.

author: VK3DRB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 26, 2016, 12:31:47 am
content: Here's the ideal garage, based upon experience building several 5 star garages...For the roof/ceiling:The metal roof of a garage needs roof foil insulation, and then, ideally fibreglass wool insulation (batts or blanket), then a ceiling. The roof sheeting should be "clip-lock" type, without any nail of screw holes.The walls:The walls should also have foil insulation and then insulation batts.The concrete floor:This must have a plastic membrane between the soil and the concrete. Also painted waterproofing compound on the sides of a slab is a good idea.Environment:Install a reverse cycle air conditioner. If the garage is well insulated, running costs will be minimal.One of the biggest mistakes people make is not putting in a plastic membrane beneath the concrete slab. If your slab does not have a plastic membrane, the best thing you can do is seal the top of the concrete with an impervious material. Also check drainage around the perimeter of the garage. White salts appearing is a sign of damp concrete. Another option is to demolish the garage and rebuild it.

author: MosherIV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 26, 2016, 09:29:03 am
content: QuoteI use one of these :https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B00I02NQX8/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o08_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1if you want one that logs try something like this:http://uk.farnell.com/lascar/el-usb-2/data-logger-0-100-rh-35deg-80deg/dp/8522898QuoteThere is not need for this.

author: VK5RC
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 26, 2016, 10:44:26 am
content: For tools, i have had a good run with either lanolin spray oil (Inox Lanox) or Break Free LP Gun Oil .

author: R005T3r
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 26, 2016, 11:49:01 am
content: Quote from: lowimpedance on October 25, 2016, 11:01:05 pmMy intention was to literally close the window and then making a hole in the wall for the fume extractor. Humidity will come inside in foggy days for sure, so using the silica-gels is pointless.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 26, 2016, 12:05:55 pm
content: I have a similar problem as you, although the garage here is not concrete but wood/cardboard/styrofoam (the way houses are done around here - never understood).Other folks mentioned similar approaches. I try to compartmentalize the low humidity spots by using plastic boxes with rubber/foam insulation on the edges and self-made bags of silica-gel - something I show starting at 0:50 of the video below.This has been working for me for several years - i.e., no rust or oxidization has happened to my electronic components.One warning, though: never reuse silica-gel bags from other products, as you don't know what they may have been exposed to. I know this by experience - I reused some silica-gel bags from unknown sources only to find out they were probably used in some sort of oxidizing environment. Conclusion: it rusted a batch of small DC motors...Equipment, however, is always stored inside the house.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 26, 2016, 12:09:40 pm
content: Quote from: R005T3r on October 26, 2016, 11:49:01 amHumidity will come ineveryday for sure. If the temperature of a surface is below the dew point, water vapour will condense into water. If not, it will stay as water vapour.Hence the importance of knowing the actual air humidity/temperature, and the temperature of the surfaces.

author: all_repair
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 26, 2016, 12:40:02 pm
content: Before I have built my lab, I was operating from an open window environment. Two defective fridges are my dry-boxes. Feeding them with drying agents were not so costly and fridges are really designed for putting and retrieving items.

author: R005T3r
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 26, 2016, 12:42:52 pm
content: If humidity will come in every day, the window should always stay closed (there's a garden on the other side, and it's always humid). And the car coming in during night is not helping at all, especially in rainy days, since there will be puddles inside the garage.I know for certain, that on the floor has been applied a sealing membrane...Maybe, another option could be having a proper dehumidifier. Anyway, it's better if I take some measurements, speculating about it with no data is useless.

author: rdl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 26, 2016, 12:57:03 pm
content: You need to get rid of the humidity. How much money can you spend?If it was me, I'd seal the inside as best as I could with rigid foam insulation board and duct tape, then buy a dehumidifier. Air conditioning of some kind for summer would be nice if you can afford it.If you have a dedicated space that you don't have to share with the vehicle, the rigid foam board is probably sturdy enough to build non-structural walls with. That could lower the cost somewhat as you wouldn't have to do the entire garage.

author: vodka
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 26, 2016, 03:14:37 pm
content: Quote from: R005T3r on October 26, 2016, 12:42:52 pmThat is a lost battle. I live on a place where normality the humidity is an average the 70% during almost all year such as on winter or summer . The garage is a breeding place of mould by the humidity, inclusive we have had on house's rooms where it has a good isolation and antimould paints .The unique solution is to live on a bubble with an air conditioning or dehumidifier .

author: R005T3r
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 26, 2016, 06:42:52 pm
content: Let's assume, it's a really lost battle and there's no way to solve the problem, but, if I:1. have a powerful enough dehumidifier to control a little bit better the moisture:I'll improve the climate and also the livability, and moisture levels will be lowered2. I constantly clean/oil/grease your tools to prevent rust:The tools will run smoother, if used properly they will last longer and the rust may not bother again3. critical equipment may be stored in a sealed container with a silica gels and changed regularly:in order to cut off the remaining moisture4. that bloody window is going to be sealed (or replaced):As a result no more bugs and moisture will find another path5. the fume extactor have a proper shutter when not in useSomething like this one:http://www.vortice.com/en/accessories-and-components/accessories/22334or similiarThe climate will be better than now. Actually, placing a wall between the lab and the car area, is something I don't want to mess up with because of space-related issues and I need to rearrange everything. The fact that the car goes in damp some times is something to be considered.

author: R005T3r
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 26, 2016, 06:47:03 pm
content: Quote from: rdl on October 26, 2016, 12:57:03 pmLet's say up to 400/500 bucks in total.

author: dr.diesel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 26, 2016, 07:07:23 pm
content: Quote from: R005T3r on October 26, 2016, 06:47:03 pmYou can make a huge improvement with that budget:- Cover the ceiling with thin plastic sheeting/film, easy installation with a staple gun. That is if your ceiling is currently open rafters or trusses, complications here if you have a steel roof.- Paint the concrete walls and floor.- Install a window shaker AC unitThe above will make a huge difference in the warm months and is all DIY. If in a cold winter climate then obviously you'll have to heat and utilize a dehumidifier during that time.

author: R005T3r
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 26, 2016, 07:35:39 pm
content: The ceiling is made out of reinforced concrete... The walls are already painted. The window is something like this:http://www.ebay.it/itm/Fenster-65-cm-Breite-viele-Hohen-Kunststoff-Kellerfenster-Garagenfenster-/182047749229(completely stuck open) made of steel and some kind of unbreakable glass...

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 26, 2016, 07:38:22 pm
content: If the car is diesel, the best thing is to use the lowest sulphur fuel in it at all times. that reduces the NOx and SOx emissions which combine with the ambient air to make a dilute Aqua Regia solution in the garage. As well simply putting a blower to always pull air from outside into the garage ( that way you can filter the dust out of it as well so less cleaning) from high up will help a lot.

author: all_repair
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 27, 2016, 12:10:51 am
content: How much space you are given? My approach would be to environment controlled just the space I needed and not the entire garage. There are ready-made plastic-transparent-curtain compartment available but I do not know is this available at your place. Or you could make one, and put in the lighting, dehumidifier and suction as you see fit. Other not environmental sensitive items could be put outside that compartment.

author: ez24
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 27, 2016, 02:07:16 am
content: Seems it would be easier if you post some pictures

author: R005T3r
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 27, 2016, 07:26:48 am
content: Quote from: SeanB on October 26, 2016, 07:38:22 pmEhm, well, there's a problem, I'm in a condo as a result I need to have the approval to all it's members to make something like this. Not to mention that neighbor will complain. That's why I wanted to make a hole in the window: they can't complain because the window is mine...The car is a diesel one. The fuel option is a no go since the car is not mine, but it belongs to my parents, and I can't control the fuel all the times.

author: R005T3r
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 27, 2016, 07:31:11 am
content: Quote from: all_repair on October 27, 2016, 12:10:51 amYes, something like PVC strips curtains or something like that. That might help to reduce the volume, and also the dehumidifier power. I don't know how they perform tough...

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 29, 2016, 07:36:33 am
content: They work quite well, and will also serve as both demarcation and reduce energy use. They just need to go from floor to roof, and in a stretch you just can use some old curtain material as well, it will at least help.