Propaganda all around this forum - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: rodpp
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2014, 10:29:14 pm
content: Maybe I'm wrong, but it seems that almost all posts asking opinions about scopes, function generator, etc have answers pending for specific brands.It seems that some users works to/with some brands and are using this forum as regular users, but making propaganda for these brands.The problem is that is not clear that the opinion is from someone associated with a brand or from a independent user.It would be fair to, at least, identify all users associated with a brand or that work selling equipment. Of course one should take their opinions with a grain of salt.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2014, 10:50:12 pm
content: QuoteIt is fairly easy to spot those pots / users and discount their views.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 18, 2014, 10:53:36 pm
content: There have been a few instances where this is the case, yes, and those users have either been banned, or forced to reveal their association.Thevastmajority are genuine users however.If anyone suspects someone of being associated with a brand without declaring their intention, then please report the user and I'll look into it.With this now being probably the worlds #1 forum for test gear, it unfortunately does attract people with vested interests.

author: rodpp
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2014, 10:57:18 pm
content: Quote from: dannyf on June 18, 2014, 10:50:12 pmIt is easy if you are a frequent user. But for the noob asking about the first scope it is not easy to know.

author: benjamin545
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2014, 11:01:03 pm
content: some types of items just invite the sense of loyalty to a particular brand even though you have no particular benefit from promoting that brand. use to be a lot of car or truck guys would religiously align with either ford or chevy, and would constantly talk about how awesome their brand was, even though the made no gain from promoting such a product. such types of products are almost always large expenditure products. something like $100 or less may not gain such loyalty, but, when you drop $500 on that fluke DMM, or over $3000 on that shiny new agilent scope, it better damn well be the super most awesomest thing over made, because if its not then you just wasted your money, or got ripped off, and you must be an idiot right?now some people here im sure are working for some brand and getting paid to lurk here and get easy advertising chances. its usually easy to identify them though. have you ever heard one of those religious nuts go off about jesus and stuff? notice how they say things in ways you would only hear a preacher say in a sermon? it doesn't sound like everyday personable talk, its very scripted because thats how the brainwashing works, but for a product Internet advertising person, they will say things in a way that sounds scripted as well. the manufacturer finds someone that doesn't really give a hoot and pays them to act like they give a hoot, so you get opinions from them that sound like someone reading from a brochure or PR statement, not like someone speaking from actual experience with the product.with all that being said "fluke(tm) is the leading manufacturer for quality test gear and field equipment from the most highly sensitive laboratory use all the way to the most extreme work environments. With products applicable for military, industrial, biomedical, and production requirements Fluke(tm) is an excellent choice for a highly reliable and long term investment solutions suitable to your specific needs." now head on over to thier website and see if you can't find a nice picture of a white girl, a black guy(but not TOO black), a generically brown girl and a slightly darker but still generically brown guy with a small amount of facial hair, all wearing office attire but with brand new hardhats standing in what appears to be a warehouse all standing in a circle with one of them looking at an ipad acting as if they are reading something with the other three giving a "ya we did it" smile. now go to the european version of said website and find the same picture with the black guy photo-chopped out and a white guy in his place but with black hands.

author: rodpp
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2014, 11:07:36 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on June 18, 2014, 10:53:36 pmYes, probably the #1 and I don't know any other near as good.Banners, advertisements, etc are ok, no problem at all. Sometimes I look for banners to find equipments prices for example.But when I am reading opinions in the discussion forum I expect to get it from independent users, or maybe from a salesperson, rep., employer identified as such. If we start having doubts if the opinions on the forum are genuine or guided for brand interests, this excellent space (eevblog discussion forums) might be unattractive.

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 18, 2014, 11:09:13 pm
content: Hmmmm, what can I say? Everywhere on the internet there are shills, paid reviewers, trolls, smart people, idiots, fan boys, and self important morons. I am probably some of these at some point, and I am sure I have been almost all of these during my life.The general rule in statistics and opinions is to throw out the 100% positive reviews/opinions and also the 0%. Somewhere in between you will find the truth. Experience will help find this middle ground. Of course there are 100% correct things and 100% wrong things. When it comes to personal experience and opinions, nothing is 100% either way.No having said that, it might appear that I am a Brymen fan boy and can fault them for nothing. Wrong! I have purchased many other brands until settling on Brymen as my favorite multimeter brand right now. This could change in the future with more experience and/or evidence.So you might look at me as one of your "propaganda" people here. Fair enough, you don't know me. There are others on this forum who are as sure of their opinion as I am. Maybe they are propaganda, or not. Read and make up your mind. If you don't trust this forum or someone on it as being "real", then ignore it!As far as my opinions are concerned, I will back them up with hard facts, or I will admit I am wrong. Am I able to be influenced and have wrong beliefs and maybe share them? Sure! Do I correct myself if I discover or someone else proves me wrong? SURE!So don't mistake experience and honest opinion, even if a bit zealous, with trolls and shills. I will back up my opinions. Shills won't. I announce my biases and conflict of interests. Shills won't.And in that spirit, I will start becoming a distributor for a Brymen soon in Chile if all works out. Why? I came to trust them after my experience. I purchased all my products that I have from them and received nothing from them for free.I know this thread was most likely not directed at me specifically, but as a contributing member of this forum I thought I would speak up as an example.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2014, 11:20:00 pm
content: Quote from: rodpp on June 18, 2014, 10:29:14 pmWell we are all big boys and girls here and so we should be able to make up our own minds on any recommendations that may be posted. Knowledge is the key, and without posted information, how can others make an informed choice?If you have concerns about a user check their posts.From EEVBlog forumAbout us:QuoteA test for myself so I feel I am not abusing this privilege:Do I make a contribution?YesDo I hide my allegiances?No Website in my Profilehttps://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/forum-rules-please-readDave and his team have dealt with the obviously one-sided posts.

author: rodpp
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2014, 11:35:39 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on June 18, 2014, 11:20:00 pmThank you for your answer.You are not hiding anything, but to be fair your association with Siglent is not explicitly.I read your opinions but only now I know that you are a Siglent rep.Why don't include a signature in all your posts with that information?Please, I am using you as a example because you kindly came here to discuss this topic.In my opinion all similar users should have a clear identification in your posts regarding a brand association.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2014, 11:58:44 pm
content: QuoteMaybe that expectation is not terribly realistic.Sooner or later, you have to learn to read people. It is better starting it now.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2014, 12:06:55 am
content: Quote from: rodpp on June 18, 2014, 11:35:39 pm1. A check ofmyuser profile will discover otherwise.2. As above.3. I wish not to abuse the privilege that Dave offers me.4. We all learn from that discussion.5. Why? That's not in the rules. The concept is worthy of discussion though.However we would not want to discourage the free flow of information.Again:Quote

author: retrolefty
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2014, 12:28:13 am
content: Hey it's the internet with some finite signal to noise ratio is to be expected.

author: Rigby
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2014, 12:38:11 am
content: Never take a forum post as gospel. Always do your own research, always over research, even. Be SURE. Shills usually sound like marketers in training, and they will use the same verbiage a lot of the time. One can easily spot it, most of the time. Multiple posts with the same opinion can be reassuring or a red flag, depending on how much conviction they have.Honestly there are very few of them here that I can detect, though there are some.

author: Richard Crowley
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2014, 12:43:32 am
content: Quote from: wilfred on June 19, 2014, 12:11:16 amCertainly a true statement. But...50 years ago, people were saying the same thing about "reading" people on TV.100 years ago, people were saying the same thing about "reading" people over that newfangled gadget, the "telephone".100s of years ago people were saying the same thing about "reading" people of different cultures and/or different language.But this is the 21st century, and we must learn to "read" people via the written word on the interweb if we plan to survive.

author: rodpp
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2014, 01:15:37 am
content: Of course we must be aware of everything we read, we are in the internet. I read forum posts every day on very different subjects from classical guitar to photography and in all these communities have the trolls, noobs, experts, users with vested interests, etc.In this forum specifically there are users tied with brands and that can be very useful for the community, for example with inside informations. But if we are debating about the best power supply, scope, etc, their opinions tend to be favorable to their brands (and they probably are honest in that opinion). No problem at all, since they are clearly identified as such.If I go to a Sony Store the salesperson will try to convince me that the Sony TV is the world best and I will hear his arguments knowing that position. It will be informative but before I buy the TV I will hear the Panasonic guy.If we have users tied with brands here, why not identify that users clearly? They opinions are valuable but must be clear its position and vested interests.If I got answers for the best scope from users A and B saying that brand X is better, and user C says that brand Y is better. Knowing that A, B or C are associated with brand X or Y will make a difference in my interpretation.

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2014, 01:33:03 am
content: The most important thing is that there is no such a beast as the best scope (or other piece of gear)You have to know what you need it for and it doesn't matter if A, B or C are associated with X or Y, you take their inputs and do your own research for your own needs for the scope.You can then search on this forum for those brands/models and see what others say about it. At least a salesman might give you better input than a random person that might not give you the right information because they don't know the equipment well enough or acquired a blind loyalty to certain brand.You have to do your own homework regardless.

author: rodpp
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2014, 01:51:24 am
content: Quote from: miguelvp on June 19, 2014, 01:33:03 amYes, of course. There is no best X in any field, I think. This was a oversimplification to expose the question.Do you think that is fair a salesman identified as such instead as a regular independent user?

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2014, 02:04:59 am
content: QuoteWhich means what? Let's say I am thinking of buying some tool, and I want to know what it is like to use. Do the buttons click nicely or register double-presses sometimes? Are the menus slow?What homework can I do short of buying one and trying it? I could Google, I guess, but then how would I know if the info I find is written by a shill or not?

author: Richard Crowley
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2014, 02:10:12 am
content: I would think it proper for people to disclose their employer when discussing anything related to their own (or competitors') products.IMHO, that doesn't necessarily include a full disclosure in their footer text.But it DOES mean that we should expect them to explicitly state "I work for xxxxx" at the end of theirrelevantposts.Certainly there are lots of things we all talk about here that have nothing to do with our employment or sources of income.

author: skipjackrc4
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2014, 02:12:05 am
content: Honestly, I kind of like the idea of requiring users with vested interests in a certain brand to include their affiliation in a signature. A lot of times, if you're just reading a single post, it really is difficult to tell. Now, if you read every post on the forum, these users will undoubtedly become fairly obvious, but many of us don't do that.

author: skipjackrc4
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2014, 02:13:07 am
content: Quote from: Richard Crowley on June 19, 2014, 02:10:12 amYeah, I had the same thought about the disclosure in the signature. In many cases it is irrelevant.

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2014, 02:13:27 am
content: It doesn't matter to me, they will bring reasons why X is better and I will double check later if that is the case, salesman or random user, you still need to check the facts.As for the Sony Store reference, I would think a public forum to be more like a place where they sell most brands not a particular one, kind of going to Sears.@dunkemhigh that's why I said:QuoteYou can do searches on users experiences on your own. Here, or youtube, etc.@RichardActually my company requires us to disclose our relation to our company if we give our opinion on things related to our work or if we talk/promote products made by our company.

author: Richard Crowley
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2014, 02:20:16 am
content: Quote from: miguelvp on June 19, 2014, 02:13:27 amAnd I did exactly that not 10 minutes ago in the discussion of random numbers!

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2014, 05:31:47 am
content: In my view, as long as the poster disclose their affiliation with the company and acted with honor, they can add to the conversation positively and likely reflect their employer positively. Anyone who has to be ferreted out as a paid lurker reflects on the company very negatively and would likely loose me as a customer.

author: Bored@Work
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2014, 07:44:57 am
content: Quote from: tautech on June 19, 2014, 12:06:55 amThat is not the point. But your reaction is typical for marketing people. Trying to fly under the radar. I, on the other hand, expect that you openly, without having to be asked to do it, and even if there wouldn't be any rules, state you affiliation. Trying to do the least possible to stay within the rules doesn't cut it.It is the difference between having to "pull" some information or getting it "pushed" in my face. While I suspected for some time you being a Siglent/Atten/Gratten chill I never checked you profile. It is not my job to "pull" that information somehow out of you or your profile. It would have been your moral obligation to openly and in advance push that information onto us. Especially taking into account the army of Siglent chills we had in the past and partly still have.

author: oldway
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2014, 08:50:38 am
content: On this forum, there is another insidious propaganda made by Dave himself :to let beginners believe that they need to spend astronomical sums of money to work in electronics.I take the latest videos of Dave for example:To repair a LCD TV L32V12A Soniq 32 "HD which cost is $ 179.00, Dave used as measuring devices in these videos:- 01 Silicon Chip ESR meter: unknown price- 01 Fluke 87 V: U.S. $ 400- 01 Flir thermal camera, I do not know what model, but the low cost is the E4 model which costs U.S. $ 995.- 01 Lecroy AP031 differential probe: U.S. $ 435- 01 digital oscilloscope MSOX HP 3000 series (I do not know what model): over U.S. $ 8,000 priceOver U.S. $ 9,830 test instruments (55 x the price of the TV!)

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2014, 08:58:08 am
content: Quote from: Bored@Work on June 19, 2014, 07:44:57 amAn inquiring mind would research a post including the user and that users qualification to make such a post.I often do, it's called using your nut and this forum is full of inquiring minds.I have never attempted to hide my affiliation with Siglent or any other company I deal with.If I didn't want people to see my website I would not have linked it.As far asmoral obligationis concerned, I expect your comment is also directed at the hundreds of other users that also have their company website link in their profile.It will be interesting to see what they think of that.The guidelines and rules openly visible to all, invite open discussion with light moderation in order to promote this forum and not scare potential users away.Theflagdebate is a classic example, many choose to have a black flag or no flag, what are they hiding behind?It's all about balance and I think Dave has it pretty good.I will continue to attempt to make an informative contribution to this forum with the years of general and electronic knowledge I have acquired.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2014, 10:11:18 am
content: Quote from: wilfred on June 19, 2014, 12:02:16 amI'll call someone out, Marmad with their Agilent hating/Rigol loving. They've brought up some hilarious comparisons to support their position.Quote from: tautech on June 19, 2014, 08:58:08 amLarger companies have very specific rules about using new media to reach out to clients, anything other than a personal view or comment usually has to be backed up with a complete disclosure and a clearly visible attribution to your employment. Saying we can see from your website that you distribute products of a certain brand is a bit weak, the user would need to know that they have to click the little globe under your name, its not in readable text and they then have to visit the website to find this out. A clearer example would be to prominently put your position as a distributor of the brands in your signature, then its immediately obvious and in context with your posts, and will probably even drive some extra business your way

author: Shock
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2014, 10:15:00 am
content: Original poster Rodpp loses points for posting in the wrong forum and also choosing an abbreviated version of "rolandpenplotter" as their nickname.

author: GeoffS
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 19, 2014, 11:24:29 am
content: Quote from: Shock on June 19, 2014, 10:15:00 amNot unless Roland has migrated to South America (or has found a proxy there ...)

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2014, 12:06:07 pm
content: QuoteDo you think it fair that we are get paid billions of dollars and live in mansions? ...There are a lot of "fair" things that we don't do, for a variety of valid reasons.The whole argument here can be boiled down to your desire to be protected from the elements. No one can blame you for that desire. Except that it is extremely unwise to expect that the world will have your best interests at heart. People may not care about your desires. You are unlikely to change the world to your wishes; ....Instead, it is far better to man up and learn to take care of yourself now. That includes your ability to read people, however difficult it may be. End of the day, you are the only one in the world who truly cares about yourself.

author: rodpp
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2014, 12:46:12 pm
content: Quote from: Shock on June 19, 2014, 10:15:00 amI read this as you pulling my leg. But to be clear the rodpp nick is a abbreviation of my natural name and I never heard about rolandpenplotter before.

author: rodpp
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2014, 12:51:09 pm
content: Quote from: dannyf on June 19, 2014, 12:06:07 pmOk, if it is only my desire the moderators could close this topic, but if you read the replies you'll see others complaining too.So I think the situation is worth the discussion.And don't worry about me, I can take care of myself.