I'm loosing respect for Elon Musk... promises $1 rides in LA transit tunnels. - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: BrianHG
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 18, 2018, 05:53:58 pm
content: 1$...Enough already...I'm beginning to lose respect for Elon Musk. He just keeps on going down more BS. Human carrying autonomous VTOL taxi drones are far more plausible in the near future than this.﻿

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 18, 2018, 09:14:53 pm
content: I don't get the outrage. He is not asking for public money, so he is free to do whatever, as long as city officials are on board.Subway in LA is clearly not working. Maybe people don't want to be crammed as sardines in a tin can. So individual or low occupancy pods may be less efficient on their own, but will attract more people into public transport.

author: Koen
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 18, 2018, 09:28:45 pm
content: Lord is he grasping at straws to keep viewers :https://www.youtube.com/user/Thunderf00t/videos

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 18, 2018, 09:30:36 pm
content: Quote from: Koen on May 18, 2018, 09:28:45 pmYeah, I unsubscribed long time ago. Some of the videos are ok, but the rest are just pushing it too much.

author: kerouanton
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 18, 2018, 11:07:46 pm
content: I've just discovered his channel with your post..Never thought Elon Musk was publishing so lame videosEdit: got confused. It's Phil Mason's vlog (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phil_Mason)

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 19, 2018, 01:14:52 am
content: Quote from: ataradov on May 18, 2018, 09:14:53 pmI haven't been down there in several years but when I've visited LA the subway/light rail seemed to be working very well. It was always fairly busy and I was able to get by without renting a car.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 19, 2018, 01:21:20 am
content: Some stats from Wiki:LA: Population: 3.976 million, number of stations: 93, Daily ridership: 359,016Moscow, Russia: Population: 12.19 million, Number of stations: 245, Daily ridership: 6.992 million.And Moscow is not the most advanced one, although it is up there. LA subway system is barely working compared to places where subways actually work.It does work in a sense that it is functional, but it is far from convenient, and you see why after you've experienced better run subway systems.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 19, 2018, 01:25:52 am
content: Moscow certainly seems to have a better system, and probably a culture where more people are accustomed to using mass transit. I'm sure it also got off to a much earlier start, these things take a lot of time to build.Given LA is practically the center of the American car culture I think their transit system is off to a good start. Last time I was down there they were expanding several of the lines.

author: rx8pilot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 19, 2018, 01:27:42 am
content: Thunderfoot is rather bright and I appreciate most of his videos - even the ones where I do not entirely agree.In the case of the Elon Musk videos specifically....I cannot find much fault in his gripes. Elon is a dreamer and that should be celebrated. He does, however, go overboard taking ownership of other ideas as his own. He also glosses over massive engineering challenges as if they are trivial and low cost. I live in LA and have to deal with the traffic. The subway system works well and has been expanding continuously since it was originally started about 20 something years ago.The bizarre thing is that people believe that you just dig some tunnels, toss in some pods, it all works, problem solved. How can anyone possibly believe this? A 3D tunnel matrix under LA? Seriously.....if it ever happens it will take $trillions and a century. It would be cheaper to pursue nearly any other concept short of teleportation.At some point, the dream has to introduced to reality. In this case, you have engineering and economic realities that make the moon landings look like a child's science fair project.

author: rx8pilot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 19, 2018, 01:29:41 am
content: Quote from: ataradov on May 19, 2018, 01:21:20 amThe LA metro area is 13 million. In real life, it feels even worse.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 19, 2018, 01:39:17 am
content: There are three things that come to mind when comparing two systems:1. Moscow is extremely cheap. Single ride is less than $1. 60 rides (1 month back and forth every day) is less than $25. Even considering income difference, this is very cheap.2. Delay between trains. I have not been to LA subway during peak hours, but on a week day close to noon trains had like 10-15 minute intervals. The worst delay between trains in Moscow is like 5-7 minutes, averaging 2-3 minutes.3. Strong enforcement of laws. There are very few homeless people in Moscow subway, and the ones that get in get promptly removed. Trash and urination on the stations is also not a thing (for the most part, there are isolated incedents, of course).I'm not sure what contributes to the price of public transit in the US, but for me right now it is cheaper to commute by car than to buy a monthly pass to a light rail. I enjoy public transport, but if it includes the need to walk to and from the station, wait for 15 minutes for the train, and it costs more than gas, it is just stupid to pick it.

author: rx8pilot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 19, 2018, 01:49:32 am
content: The LA subway has barely grown out of its novelty stage - only within the past 10 years or less in my opinion. It works well, but the system is tiny compared to the actual challenge it faces. There are also some design oddities that force you to go the wrong direction for quite a distance to swap trains. This makes it take 90-120 minutes to take the train on a trip that you can drive in 60 minutes in the height of traffic.It has taken decades and enormous amounts of money to accomplish this small and limited system. Elon will face the exact same challenges plus the drastically more sophisticated engineering and politics. If I had to guess, I would say that a huge percentage of the current subway riders do not have a car or the ability to afford one. The traffic benefit is close to zero. Until a form of transportation is faster from point to point....people will drive.Elon's concept cannot beat the point to point time in his wildest dreams. Even if it is going 150mph, riders have to deal with getting to/from the entrance and exit nodes of the system.

author: labjr
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 19, 2018, 02:03:42 am
content: Everything Musk has done runs on government subsidies. One guy called Musk a pseudo science bullshit snake oil merchant.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 19, 2018, 02:15:58 am
content: The whole channel looks like rants and beef he has with other people, including things written in HUGE FONTS and blaring colors. I've learned to stay away from things like these.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 19, 2018, 03:10:40 am
content: Quote from: ataradov on May 18, 2018, 09:14:53 pmI think the general outrage is more at the media who just gush over with praise at everything he says and does without a single ounce of doubt or critical thinking.This tunnel would be more effective and fun if it was just a fast moving walkway.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 19, 2018, 03:13:50 am
content: Quote from: rx8pilot on May 19, 2018, 01:49:32 amThere have been plans for many decades in crowded cities across the world to get cars out of the city, and you drive your car to massive parking spot outside the city and then fast an efficient people movers (of whatever description) shuttle you in to were you need to go.QuoteBuilding this system for personal use cars in a city is doomed to failure.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 19, 2018, 03:17:20 am
content: Quote from: 3roomlab on May 18, 2018, 09:55:57 pmWhy?He can't express his opinion likeevery single other person on Youtube?

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 19, 2018, 03:21:34 am
content: If only all the major cities in the US had put in good mass transit back when building the infrastructure was relatively cheap before the city was all built out. Today driving in Seattle for example is an absolute nightmare, during rush hour it's not unusual for gridlock to occur where you'll sit an an intersection for 3 or 4 cycles of the light before you get to go. Cars turning right pile into the crosswalk and it's just an absolute mess. If we'd put in light rail 50 years ago when they started talking about it then we'd have a nice working system by now. I like driving my car but in a large densely populated city it's just not practical.

author: rx8pilot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 19, 2018, 04:33:53 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on May 19, 2018, 03:13:50 amA major impediment for any mass transit plan is that it has to be implemented and put into service without disturbing the current system. Digging underground seems like it would avoid that which moves us to the next major impediment....money. Tunnels are crazy expensive. Musk thinks you just get TBM and just drive it around making tunnels.To be effectively faster/easier than the current congested freeway system filled with cars.....a city like LA would need enormous amounts of multilevel tunnels. Each entrance and exit needs easy on/off ground transportation to go the last couple of miles. Super clumsy even if it was a perfect implementation. Each tunnel needs a parallel tunnel for maintenance and emergency evacuation.I think it would be cheaper and faster to build drones or hover cars.My personal view is to just shut down Los Angles altogether. It is a horrible place and I have no idea why anyone wants to live here. I have been planning my escape for quite a while....just a couple of years and I am out of this hell hole. [complicated family logistics keep me from leaving right now]

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 20, 2018, 07:00:09 pm
content: Quote from: ataradov on May 18, 2018, 09:14:53 pmHe's very good at that. He has managed to get a lot of public subsidies over the years without ever looking like he's asking.We can't deny this guy is a genius businessman.http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-hy-musk-subsidies-20150531-story.htmlhttps://www.tesla.com/support/incentivesQuote from: ataradov on May 18, 2018, 09:14:53 pmAbsolutely. (But just to make a point, having "city officials on board" means that he gets public money one way or another, even if it's indirect. Unless he pays for their time and for the infrastructure costs etc. that he's going to need for his project. Of course you may consider that he already pays with his tax money. But tax money is not necessarily supposed to help private companies grow. Well.)This guy has become a star, so of course he gets a lot of media coverage. Doesn't mean you should listen to every little word he says.

author: rrinker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 21, 2018, 05:21:59 pm
content: What's kind of sad is that the LA area was once home to one of the biggest mass transit systems around. Trolleys in downtown areas, interurban cars to reach out to the surrounding communities. Then GM offered buses for a price too low to pass up (it's been shown to be just an urban legend that GM bought the transit company and then purposely destroyed it, but they did sell buses for low cost to the city agencies). After decades of ridiculous traffic, it's coming full circle, with light rail, subway, and yes, even Elon's concept. Yes, LA is different than most East Coast large cities, because it is so spread out, but they used to have effective ways to get around that did not require millions of people to hop in cars and try to drive every day. Soon they will again. Other urban areas are following suit, returning to the past with modern takes on the old rail-based transit systems.

author: Acecool
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2018, 08:24:01 am
content: Trains are really reliable.... Their tracks carry many tonnes of weight and continue serving for years or decades before needing maintenance... The initial cost will be high, but there are formulas we use every day to calculate wear and tear - for cars it can be $0.78 per mile or more, or less... Since the tracks won't be carrying massive amounts of weight, the meandering effect which bends the tracks over time won't be an issue, and since it isn't in soft soil its less of an issue too....It is possible he could get the rides down this low - ALSO consider how much property rights he is gaining... If the system fails, he'll likely still own the rights to the tunnels unless they're leased by the city...He could be willing to pay money for each person using the system - why would anyone do this? Because for each person who rides, he can collect data and data is where real money is in todays society... I'm sure there will be cameras galore, weight sensors, etc... He could be offsetting the fees by hoping some of FBIs most wanted will ride, he'll be able to give a real lead and get the reward money....Honestly, its all possible... Besides, with the track concept cars can hop on, and there will be train cars too for pedestrian traffic ( this may be the $1 fee for a pedestrian hopping into a train car with 20 or more other people instead of the cars that ride along the tracks too although it could be both )... I didn't watch the promise...Oh, $1 rides - he's likely getting a ton of Grant money which can offset the money so if he takes less money and takes a 'loss' some grants will make up the difference in the case of public transportation, humanitarian aide, historical preservation, and so on.... So it is entirely possible for it to be true..

author: BrianHG
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2018, 02:37:40 pm
content: Quote from: Acecool on May 25, 2018, 08:24:01 amOh, come on, honestly, he is planing 30 minute flights around the world and starting his own private colony on Mars, you think he is gambling on making such a system to receive a pittance in money for a fugitive? He is making more than that every few hours just existing today. If not every few hours, at least every day or 2 of his life.

author: Acecool
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2018, 01:44:31 pm
content: There are so many ways to make money - I listed it there because it really wouldn't surprise me, and it wouldn't be hard to add facial recognition linked with government databases - even add automatic tattling to authorities with requests for the reward money for the tip....It could be 100% automated depending how good the algorithm is, but honestly if he did a system like this he'd probably pay someone minimum wage, or even get a free intern to verify hits....Also, a Mars colony is a bit soon... Lunar should be the first stop because it's much closer and easier to send rescue and would provide us with a lot of the answers regarding how to survive on another surface... Another option, for expanding population which is easily obtainable is underwater colonies - which doesn't protect us fully as a species if there is another mass impact, but it could offer some protection...Mars is a great idea, when we have engines to reach it in a shorter time-frame... Can you imagine living on another surface, it sounds great until you get into all of the technical stuff... Yes, there is ice so they have water, and they can generate oxygen, there are LEDs meant for growing so they can easily grow micro-greens or other nutrient rich, 10 day cycle plants to eat for dirt-cheap and survive but you'd basically need to live on that stuff for the rest of your life... Everything they'd have, they'd need to bring with them, or make when they get there - so they'd need to mine, refine, create which is hard... Being isolated from everyone you've ever known - we are social animals afterall - is devastating to our psyche...Until we can send 10,000 people to Mars, it really isn't worth it - sure a simply colony needs to go there first to build housing, farms, mines, etc... and to test the waters, but there's so much work to be done...

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2018, 04:58:44 pm
content: There have been a few experiments right here on earth with groups of people living in a sealed environment for a period of time. As far as I know they have all been rather spectacular failures. Technical problems aside, I'd bet that a mars colony would have a massive outbreak of drama within a few months.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2018, 10:11:57 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on May 26, 2018, 04:58:44 pmJust like regular life, you mean? This tends to happen less if carefully selected and trained personnel are employed. A clear goal, organisation and power structure also seems to help. The South Pole research institute seems to be a fair model of how people live in difficult conditions without a way out for extended periods of time.

author: bugi
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2018, 10:15:49 pm
content: Quote from: rx8pilot on May 19, 2018, 04:33:53 amIt is all relative. Certainly more expensive to make the initial build than making e.g. a road on surface, but the maintenance costs afterwards can be a lot less. Also, even those build costs can be considered acceptable if it saves enough in other costs, or brings other benefits (like less time wasted in travels, or saves space for something else). Depends on the environment, too (does it get snowy in winter, how difficult the ground is to dig, etc).Consider that even in such "small" cities like Helsinki (or the capital area in general, still a petty village on the big world standards), they are almost continuously adding new (short) tunnels all over the place, are moving some large roads underground (either in tunnel, or digging into a pit and adding a cover to build buildings on top of), and are currently pre-planning (i.e. not decided on yet) one large tunnel complex (for cars) going pretty much past the whole main city center, and also pre-planning a huge tunnel from Helsinki to Tallinn. Last one is certainly estimated to be quite pricey, but they also estimate that it has a good chance to be worth it in the long run. Note also that pretty much all tunnels here go into hard bedrock. Some consider that as expensive, here they have done it so long that IIRC, now they like it more than softer materials (because less money is needed for making supports etc.) Ages ago they also made the main tunnel network for putting some heat/water/whatnot pipes/cables into, large enough to drive maintenance cars in. I'd think if tunnel digging was "crazy" expensive, digging tunnels for mere pipes would not have been on the top of the project list to fund.Oh, and this onehttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P%C3%A4ij%C3%A4nne_Water_Tunnel. A bedrock tunnel (and world's second longest tunnel, too) just for water (and a bit of electricity generation from that water flow along the way) - We must have been crazy..All that said, I'm not trying to claim that Musk's this particular idea is good, I just wouldn't drop it due to just including tunnels in the idea. (He has some other, lets say "less than good" ideas, too.)

author: rx8pilot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2018, 11:40:19 pm
content: Quote from: bugi on May 26, 2018, 10:15:49 pmI would not disqualify this concept solely on the basis of tunnels generically being expensive. If we think about the end game being: 'get people where they want to go faster and/or lower cost'.Important considerations for Los Angeles:1. Seismic activity increases the cost of any structure considerably.2. The city is spread out over a large area3. The nature of the industries in LA avoid a concentrated rush hour - it's just busy all the time.4. As slow as the freeways are, the trains, buses, and subways are almost always slower even if the stations are close to your endpoints.If you have to get to the station, get on the subway, then transfer to a bus, then walk a mile.....it makes the cars look like they are traveling at the speed of sound. So, for a method of transportation to really have a positive impact - it needs to be vastly larger and vastly more efficient than the existing train, subway, and bus system already in place. Even if public transportation was free to use - I would still have a car because I cannot waste so much time. The number of tunnels and on/off stations would have to be enormous before anyone would be able to see an improvement. At that point, presumably, obscene amounts of money would have been spent either by the city or private industry. The city would need to see a productivity improvement to justify the cost in tax revenue, the private industry needs to see an operating profit. Either way - it needs to make financial sense which, at best, is a very long-term outlook measured in decades if it ever works at all.Musk loves very long-shot ideas and perhaps he still has the charisma necessary to raise the massive capital. My thinking is that he will struggle to get anything off the ground unless Tesla planes out and trands in the direction of profitablity. After all, making a car company is a much smaller task than developing an all-new transportation system from scratch under one of the busiest cities on the planet.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2018, 12:08:26 am
content: I don't think that starting and running a car company that challenges the conventional views and industry substantially and starting another company that is the first to relaunch rockets into orbit and puts objects on a transmartian trajectory should be considered more trivial endeavours that revamping public transport. Complex operations where transportation infrastructure is built and rebuilt while in operation happens every day in almost every country in the world. It's by no means a small feat, but also far from rare.You're correct in that Musk loves long-shot ideas. I guess it's better to try a number of times and succeed once or twice and do something great than to play it safe and never do much that's very exciting. Our society and progress is built upon the successes of our ancestors. Not the many more failures.

author: TomS_
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2018, 09:14:17 am
content: Quote from: james_s on May 26, 2018, 04:58:44 pmJust turn it in to a reality TV show.

author: beanflying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2018, 01:46:51 pm
content: Want to see Elon look awkward speaking about the tunnel HE built with HIS amazing technology.This Christmas Entertainment brought to you by Thunderfoot.https://youtu.be/0ezF7NmwQZs

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2018, 01:54:34 pm
content: thunderfoot is a bit of a rage lordi can't really stand watching him because its so hateful and he grasps at straws alot.is no one else reminded of the tabloidish news paper from "predator 2" by his style of videos filled with sarcastic tone of voice and cartoon clips?

author: beanflying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2018, 01:57:29 pm
content: For comparison mainstream media fawning and swallowing the overhypehttps://youtu.be/16crrnO4b6A

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2018, 01:58:24 pm
content: also what are thunderfoots qualifications as a engineer ?normally I don't care but I swear like 99% of what he says is non-constructive and extremely pulpyI say engineer notresearcherwith a big budget. he is a food scientist that keeps getting involved in discourse about structural engineering and electronics. did he ever work as a designer, test engineer or other practical field? did this man ever get his hands dirty with product design, analysis, company bureaucracy and government regulations? most of what elon musk is doing is extremely difficult. A big part of this is because he does not have the money to implement the stuff he wants, he needs a astronomical budget to do this stuff where its not a complete nose bleed of proving yourself to others constantly IMO. All this stuff is major societal changes, and not from a systems engineering prospective like a new web site or something but from a novel infrastructure prospective. This is safety critical human interface engineering thats distributed. Makes a MTA look like a joke. It's an underground transit system without a central control or even schedule, without rails, interlocks, and user owned train cars.IMO its like comparing telegraph offices to home internet connections.Electric cars are not exactly new? What kinda drivel is this? IDK how to watch this guy.

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2018, 02:58:08 pm
content: If there is a mad one here it is Musk. And why he always talk like he is on drugs?

author: chris_leyson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2018, 04:33:15 pm
content: Many cities have underground transit sytems and for the most part they work extremely well. London underground claim to handle 1.35 billion passengers annually that's nearly 4 million passenger journeys every day. London buses move around 2 billion passengers annually, neary 6 million passenger journeys every day. Just trains and buses is 9 million passenger jouneys/day.Clearly this scheme is not going to replace mass transit systems any day soon, well not for Greater London anyway.

author: vk3yedotcom
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2018, 06:27:54 pm
content: A view from a transport planner professional"It doesn't scale"https://humantransit.org/2018/12/elon-musks-tunnel-it-doesnt-scale-so-it-doesnt-matter.html

author: beanflying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2018, 10:34:35 pm
content: I think Musk liked the Jetsons as a kid but as he clearly doesn't like the freedom of flying cars (not that they are sensible anyway) and because he can't charge for the sky lets build a tunnel and avoid all reason and logistical considerations as we do it. Clearly an visionary of Timothy Leary proportions

author: labjr
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2018, 10:50:53 pm
content: He can do anything that involves government subsidies. Meanwhile he flies in his private jet.

author: rx8pilot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 25, 2018, 06:24:04 am
content: Quote from: chris_leyson on December 24, 2018, 04:33:15 pmLos Angeles even has a subway system that moves a lot of people relative to its size. It has taken decades to build it, massive amounts of money, and it is very limited in terms of usability.Musk is proposing something considerably less efficient.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 25, 2018, 06:50:37 am
content: but all that stuff has central control and schedules with a transit board.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 25, 2018, 07:40:52 am
content: Quote from: rx8pilot on December 25, 2018, 06:24:04 amThat's why it sucks.QuoteHe is proposing something that can be built much cheaper and faster.

author: beanflying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 25, 2018, 07:47:00 am
content: Quote from: wraper on December 25, 2018, 07:40:52 amSeriously do explain how it would be 'cheaper' and 'faster'While you are at it consider the logistics of scale. How long did it take him to build one tunnel for a one way journey for one car at 50MPH? Scale that to a few million cars a day with interconnects and lifts. At the end of the journey what happens if there is a traffic jam above ground that backs up underground into the lanes at 150MPH?

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 25, 2018, 07:56:46 am
content: Quote from: beanflying on December 25, 2018, 07:47:00 amThey dug 1.14 mile (1.83 km) test tunnel in one year. Boring company claims U$ 10 million per mile ($ 6.2 million per km).https://www.boringcompany.com/testtunnel/

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 25, 2018, 08:03:01 am
content: I found the Los Angeles subway and light rail system to work very well and have used it extensively when visiting down there. I wish they had started building a similar system in the Seattle area decades ago because then we'd have it now. Infrastructure projects like this do take a long time to build and cost a lot of money, but they pay off hugely in the long term. The alternative is to do what Seattle did and talk about it for decades and then only really start building something when the whole region is fully built out making it extremely expensive to buy land and traffic is already unbearable. 20 years ago you could get from downtown Seattle to my house in about 20 minutes, now the last time I drove there it took me 2 hours to get home and that's not unusual. I take the bus to work which takes about an hour but subway or light rail on its own tracks would be much faster.This tunnel idea using personal cars is a non-starter. It will only work with autonomous EVs which right there limits it to a niche for wealthy people and has already been hashed out, it doesn't scale. Any way you look at it, a train can move more people with less infrastructure and complexity than personal cars. Even if you ignore the multitude of issues with the elevators, a single lane tunnel with cars going 150mph is less throughput than 3 freeway lanes moving at 50mph.

author: beanflying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 25, 2018, 08:05:30 am
content: $10 million/mile for what is never explainedAnd do the numbers for a meager 1 million cars per day. It is a financial turd before you even get near the logistics.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 25, 2018, 08:07:17 am
content: Quote from: james_s on December 25, 2018, 08:03:01 amThey claim autonomous vehicles for pedestrians as well. You won't need a car to take a ride.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 25, 2018, 08:07:56 am
content: Quote from: wraper on December 25, 2018, 07:56:46 amThen maybe they can dig more useful subway tunnels at a lower cost than is currently being done. Rail is a very efficient way to move large numbers of people at high speeds without the logistical nightmare of getting a bunch of individual cars running through the tunnels. Imagine the nightmare of a breakdown or crash occurring in one of them. Sure autonomous cars will not crash often but it's silly to think that failures will never occur. If it ever approached a useful throughput there would be enough individual cars that I would bet some sort of malfunction would be a weekly occurrence. Flat tire, sensor failure, dead battery, debris, you name it, it will happen.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 25, 2018, 08:09:05 am
content: Quote from: wraper on December 25, 2018, 08:07:17 amWe already have those in every major city, they're called "buses" or "trains". They've been in service for more than half a century.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 25, 2018, 08:15:05 am
content: Quote from: james_s on December 25, 2018, 08:09:05 amAnd they drive within 2D facing exactly the same problems that cars have.You cannot bypass congestions unless build multiple layers. Think about why we have multilayer PCBs.

author: beanflying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 25, 2018, 08:17:27 am
content: Quote from: wraper on December 25, 2018, 08:13:03 amSo you believe individual transport shells of whatever sort more efficient than mass transit?Think about the COST of multi layer tunneling like you just floated as a solution you just doubled, tripled , quadrupled.... your costs + the interconnects to your bypasses to your interconnects....BTW Musk talked about 30 levels of tunnels early in the yearhttps://youtu.be/-GktlB8SsAk

author: jonovid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 25, 2018, 08:35:37 am
content: maybe its to help import more 2020 blue voters. from the border. .ora way to get to san francisco without been seen or stopped by Immigration , but wait would I know

author: beanflying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 25, 2018, 08:40:10 am
content: Quote from: jonovid on December 25, 2018, 08:35:37 amOr maybe it is to Muask the Overhyped Loop being on a timeline of never going to work either

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 25, 2018, 08:45:32 am
content: Quote from: beanflying on December 25, 2018, 08:17:27 amIf you make 30 narrow tunnels which cost the same as one wide subway tunnel, why not.

author: beanflying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 25, 2018, 09:10:16 am
content: So then you will have wasted $300 million a mile based on 'Musk's' figuresPlease give at least a ball park idea of the 'true' cost of moving 1 million humans a day on a tunnel system across a city like LA using individual or even shared pods to half the number of pods? $1x10^10 or 12?

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 25, 2018, 11:39:19 am
content: Quote from: beanflying on December 25, 2018, 09:10:16 amNope, it will be 30 miles in different directions. They are not supposed to be in parallel. And as you won't be running one train in 15 minutes (or few minutes in decent underground) but a car every few seconds, throughput of 1 narrow tunnel probably will be even better than one crappy LA subway line has. Then multiply by 30.

author: beanflying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 25, 2018, 11:46:37 am
content: Quote from: wraper on December 25, 2018, 11:39:19 amAnd then is sure as hell won't be 10 Million a mile. Please stop my brain hurts

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 25, 2018, 11:48:45 am
content: Quote from: beanflying on December 25, 2018, 11:46:37 amIt certainly does as you obviously cannot understand simple things. Please explain why it won't be 10 million?

author: BrianHG
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 25, 2018, 12:11:44 pm
content: If the ride was already considered bumpy at 50mph, with that bracket system, wouldn't 150mph destroy your car's suspension as it was not designed to take those lateral forces mounted on the wheels as illustrated?Also, wouldn't this cause riders to puke with such bouncing in a long white tunnel all mono colored lighting?Also, the your car is powering the drive, from what I can see, what if you have front wheel drive?How will the exhaust fumes be handled?What is someone's car engine breaks down? What will a chain reaction pileup look like?How can users along the length of the tunnel escape a car in flames ahead of them?WHAT IF A STUPID DRUNK PERSON ENGAGES HIS ENGINE IN DRIVE WHILE ON ONE OF THOSE 150mps SKIRTS DERAILING HIMSELF INTO THE TUNNEL STRUCTURE?

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 25, 2018, 12:16:13 pm
content: Quote from: BrianHG on December 25, 2018, 12:11:44 pmThere won't be such bracket in real tunnel. And as Musk said it won't be bumpy in final product.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 25, 2018, 01:19:50 pm
content: Quote from: BrianHG on December 25, 2018, 12:11:44 pmthis is what I mean by telegraph vs internet. You have timing problems that are severe and a relative lack of professionals to maintain everything.I think you would need some kind of top level traffic control/AI control to limit the amount of traffic in the tunnels and stuff.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 25, 2018, 10:41:10 pm
content: Quote from: BrianHG on December 25, 2018, 12:11:44 pmThe article said the bumpy ride is due to issues with paving the prototype tunnel, that is a solvable problem. The tunnels are for EVs so exhaust is a non issue. The breakdown and escape issues are real potential problems and there are many other problems. As with solar roadways there will be a few true believers who will never be convinced, but a majority of engineers will easily see why it is not scalable. Individual pods will never be nearly as efficient as existing mass transit which already works very well.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 25, 2018, 10:47:42 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on December 25, 2018, 08:15:05 amHave you ever used mass transit? The light rail lines have their own private tracks and in places where they cross vehicle traffic they have right of way. We have dedicated bus and train tunnels and transit lanes. We already have multiple layers, subways by definition are underground the light rail they've been installing out here has sections below ground and sections that are elevated. Tunnels like this work well and have been around a long time, the sensible way to use tunnels is to run high capacity vehicles like trains or buses in them, this is efficient mass transit that works.The tunnels proposed here solve nothing, the only "innovation" is using them to run private cars for the elite few who can afford autonomous EVs capable of negotiating tunnels at high speed, or those who can rent or lease such a thing but any way you slice it the cost per passenger is far higher than a traditional bus chassis or rail car. This doesn't scale, it's not viable, it will never happen, wait and see.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 25, 2018, 10:55:26 pm
content: Start at 8:00 it's were the new content is

author: MrMobodies
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2018, 12:03:57 am
content: Greeted like a Rockstar.Here's a joke:A new definition of the word Crockstar comes to mind.Elon Musk the Crockstar.Edit:13:29 in the video featuring the tunnel and the led lighting.Maybe they could put some more led lights up and have it change so it resembles that Stargate scene out of 2001: A Space Odyssey.Those drilling machines look horrible in appearance.I don't like the look at the destruction they're causing to the underground on 3:10 to 3:15.

author: BrianHG
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2018, 03:27:18 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on December 25, 2018, 10:55:26 pmAt 13:27, quote, tunnel is only for any Self Driving Electric vehicles...Talk about making a never to be a fully realized product for all the masses, but be specialized for the few rich, getting approval for it, and, with that approval, even if a tunnel is never opened, just the project needs to show some headwind, and Tesla stock will see a boost...I'm beginning to think Elon is all about more money at any BS cost and the day he can no longer re-package some older concepts as his new own ideas, his decline will begin.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2018, 04:31:27 am
content: Well he did succeed where very few others have, building a car company from the ground up, and selling rather revolutionary cars at that. Tesla EVs are mainstream now, I see them around on the roads every day. He's not a god though, a lot of his ideas will be flops. It's clear to me that Musk is a dreamer, the world needs guys like him because they're the ones who do occasionally hit a home run, but that doesn't mean every idea they come up with is worthwhile.

author: beanflying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2018, 05:08:02 am
content: There in lies part of the problem with Musk his Companies have had some great successes and ideas along the way. Because of the cult/god like portrayal of the individual over the companies creations to be anti or question a twitter fart you get labeled a hater or heretic to be burnt on the stake. It is the media circus that goes with this and the public build up of expectations that needs to be more critical before swallowing the line of bs in some cases and publishing as facts what will never be.As to Tesla being a success give it another 3-5 years to get it's financials and product stable but it is still a safer bet financially than some of the old US names in cars. Musk as public mouthpiece vs some of the financial analysts earlier in the year was an interesting read.

author: VEGETA
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2018, 06:29:33 am
content: Quote from: beanflying on December 26, 2018, 05:08:02 amSome people go further to label Musk as "hero" or "hero of humanity" simply because he made electric cars! these cattle don't remember that he gained shit load of money doing so! so he is anything but a hero and he doesn't do a thing without the full intention of getting money out of it... so people cut the BS plz!!Even most of his ideas are not really practical, like what do we gain from space rockets he is building? I mean, we the common masses? regardless of that, he would still be labelled a "genius" for making an electric car that literally everyone else have thought about in the past and some people have done it as a hobby project.Now people say that he is the first one to make a product out of it... while this is not necessarily true, but even if it is... it doesn't mean he is a "genius"! the word "genius" is just too big and people should be careful of attaching it to any person... seems like the requirement for it now is just being a wealthy business man.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 26, 2018, 02:41:03 pm
content: Quote from: VEGETA on December 26, 2018, 06:29:33 amit's not true. Many companies have made production electric cars. Even Elon credits General Motors for the inspiration:And for those that hasn't watched the doco "Who killed the electric car", it's really good.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2018, 08:19:50 pm
content: Quote from: VEGETA on December 26, 2018, 06:29:33 amCommunications satellites and weather satellites are used indirectly by almost everyone in every developed nation on earth, I'd say that launching satellites into orbit is a pretty hugely practical thing the common masses gain. The cheaper it is to launch satellites, the cheaper all this technology is to use.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 26, 2018, 08:25:47 pm
content: Quote from: VEGETA on December 26, 2018, 06:29:33 amIn addition to said above, what about satellite maps? Don't say you never used one. Never used GPS? SpaceX launched GPS satellite a few days ago.

author: beanflying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2018, 09:36:54 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on December 26, 2018, 08:25:47 pmSpaceX launched a payload (they didn't design or build and is therefore irrelevant) to a point in space for $$ the profits of which benefit their shareholders.The only benefit we the common masses derived from that is we used at best a cheaper courier service or one who could deliver on time to that location for a price that was affordable in a budget.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 26, 2018, 09:44:18 pm
content: Quote from: beanflying on December 26, 2018, 09:36:54 pmI guess you need to be slapped with $100+ delivery charge on every online order you make. To let you think about it's importance. Nonetheless soon they will launch their own communication satellites.

author: beanflying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2018, 09:56:34 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on December 26, 2018, 09:44:18 pmWhat does that first sentence even mean or what point are you trying to make with itAs to your second line WOW SpaceX will be launching satellites to make $$ for shareholders and I am supposed to be impressed because?SpaceX and your cult leader Musk is doing this for a $.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 26, 2018, 10:09:08 pm
content: Quote from: beanflying on December 26, 2018, 09:56:34 pmIt means that it makes space more accessible. When you pay for launch as much as for satellite itself or even more, it certainly does not help to develop space technologies. If you get charged $100 for delivery, you simply would not order most things online at all. If he was simply going after $, he would not invest all of his paypal money into Spacex and Tesla. There are far more profitable and less risky businesses. Both of them marginally survived. Starting private space launch company was especially crazy.

author: beanflying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2018, 11:16:59 pm
content: That makes more sense than an ambit claim made in your previous post. And I had stated it worded differently already in my post before that.Quote from: beanflying on December 26, 2018, 09:36:54 pmNever Forget Tesla, SpaceX etc are listed companies and as such they are expected to make a profit for the shareholders. Never confuse the Musk myth of doing good for mankind with the first sentence.While he indulges some brain farts because he can through Boardroom control or his own money being used his full commitment to the idea or concept above reason becomes an issue when it doesn't add up in the real world. For reasons of credibility, ego or keeping the share price up in his companies these concepts need to keep positive PR spin going even if they are going to be duds. Sometimes you need to walk away but for some that is just to hard.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 26, 2018, 11:21:29 pm
content: Quote from: beanflying on December 26, 2018, 11:16:59 pmGet your facts right first. Spacex is a private company.

author: beanflying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2018, 11:25:52 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on December 26, 2018, 11:21:29 pmWow what a body blow to youHe still has shareholders regardless of it being private or public.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 26, 2018, 11:27:27 pm
content: Quote from: beanflying on December 26, 2018, 11:25:52 pmWow, Musk owns more than 50% of shares so he can do whatever he wants.Quote

author: beanflying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2018, 11:29:43 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on December 26, 2018, 11:27:27 pmPlease READ what I wrote above about BOARDROOM control. I am aware of what share he has

author: beanflying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2018, 11:32:20 pm
content: You may also like to reflect on your debate technique and how this may be relevant.Quote

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 26, 2018, 11:43:18 pm
content: Quote from: beanflying on December 26, 2018, 11:29:43 pmIf he has majority control, he does not care whatever other shareholders may want. Secondly there is no such thing as share price in private company.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 26, 2018, 11:44:26 pm
content: Quote from: beanflying on December 26, 2018, 11:32:20 pmAt least I usually get my facts right. Instead of spewing out false facts/arguments. You would qualify for 'hater' pretty well.

author: beanflying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2018, 12:03:50 am
content: Quote from: wraper on December 25, 2018, 11:39:19 amLets try this incorrect fact you tried to use. There are plenty more but I can't be bothered listing them or wasting further bandwidth on them.QuoteYou were wrong by a factor of 30 tunnels to your one. I ignored it at the time because you had either clearly never read the quote or bothered to watch the video it was used in that I posted.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 27, 2018, 12:10:44 am
content: Quote from: beanflying on December 27, 2018, 12:03:50 amSo what are you refuting here by second quote? Does it state they are going to run them in parallel? Or your mind adds up what is not written there? Or what?

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 27, 2018, 12:15:24 am
content: https://www.businessinsider.com/elon-musk-talks-plan-for-100-layers-of-boring-company-tunnels-in-la-2018-11Quote

author: beanflying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2018, 12:21:32 am
content: You repeated the claim of $10million/mile and 30 miles of tunnel which last time I worked it out was $300 million. This is completeQuote30 layers deep covering even a portion of LA @ $10 million/mile is at least a factor of 30 more. So try $9 Billion+ and most likely double or triple that to make a workable system.Are you in denial of the FACT that Musk/Boring company made a statement of '30 layers deep' ?

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 27, 2018, 12:29:00 am
content: Quote from: beanflying on December 27, 2018, 12:21:32 amWTF are you talking about here? What I said is that every mile of tunnel has length of it's own. If you have 30 layers with 1 mile tunnel on each layer, it's 30 miles of tunnel length in total. But you obviously cannot get basic math right and still count them as 1 mile as if they run in parallel and have the same entry and exit points.

author: beanflying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2018, 12:40:08 am
content: I can't argue with your logic as there is none.30 miles (assuming that is a limit of sorts for LA) of tunnel 30 layers deep is 900 miles plus whatever interconnecting nodes and branches would be required is NOT 30 miles.Or are you trying to suggest that Musk was proposing a 1 mile long system 30 layers deep to make your maths work?Or is there a third option of larger pods in larger tunnels with maybe fixed destinations that makes sense like maybe a subway

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 27, 2018, 12:45:57 am
content: Please point to a single post of me mentioning length of tunnels they will need to build.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 27, 2018, 12:49:00 am
content: I was particularly refuting this nonsense of yours.Quote from: beanflying on December 25, 2018, 09:10:16 am

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 27, 2018, 01:04:45 am
content: Quote from: beanflying on December 27, 2018, 12:40:08 amEven if they need to make 900 miles of tunnels for $9 billion, it would be awesome. This is the same as was spent to build 11 miles of LA subway or 3.5 miles of NY Second Avenue Subway.https://www.citylab.com/transportation/2018/01/why-its-so-expensive-to-build-urban-rail-in-the-us/551408/

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2018, 02:17:09 am
content: Have you looked into the reason the subway is as expensive to build as it is? Why not apply Musk's lower cost building technique to expanding the existing subway? The subway/light rail is the future, private autonomous cars in tunnels will never happen. People who know what they're talking about say it doesn't scale, and I along with many other engineers agree.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 27, 2018, 02:27:35 am
content: Quote from: james_s on December 27, 2018, 02:17:09 amBecause usual subway trains won't fit there.

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 20, 2019, 01:32:56 am
content: QuoteWhy would 30 tunnels take less space than 1 infinitely more efficient tunnel?How would Elon stations for CARS fit in smaller spaces than those packed with humans without the automobile wrappers?QuoteWhy do you trust Elon's involvement makes it possible to do this? He is such a genius to figure out how to load/unload cars into a tunnel like a gatling gun, but he couldn't apply the same thing to a slow moving subway car? With his genius and vision, he could have traditional trains arriving and leaving every station every 20 seconds. Miss your train? Don't worry, the next one is here in 3, 2, 1.. Bing! This could never result in half a million people packed like sardines in a hole for 20 hours while a billion dollar rescue mission is executed.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 20, 2019, 03:09:37 am
content: Quote from: KL27x on January 20, 2019, 01:32:56 amIt's apples vs oranges. Those tunnels would be in different directions. It's like comparing one big power transistor with 30 small ones and saying that the big one is better.QuoteWhy mentioning Elon causes so much butthurt for some people? I will just wait and look if something comes out of this.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 20, 2019, 03:15:34 am
content: LA used to have agreatstreetcar system, electric light rail, fast, clean, long ago,just guesswhat happened to it.Yup... you got it, that.And we are still paying the price in wars for oil today.http://moderntransit.org/ctc/ctc04.htmlhttp://moderntransit.org/ctc/46report.html-----

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 20, 2019, 04:49:58 am
content: The old PCC cars were really fun to ride, and they are faster than the newer cars.They had sort of a bouncy ride.People really liked them. People want to bring something like the old PCC light rail cars back..

author: Gary350z
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 21, 2019, 01:43:07 pm
content: Yesterday I watched one of the recommended videos that pop up on youtube about Elon Musk and SpaceX. A little ways into the video, the host stated that "Elon Musk was our savior", at which point I stopped watching the video.

author: rrinker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 22, 2019, 07:24:38 pm
content: Quote from: cdev on January 20, 2019, 03:15:34 amThe plot of "Who Framed Roger Rabbit" wasn't entirely fictional.

author: BrianHG
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2019, 05:45:03 pm
content: Ok, for those who aren't Thunderf00t fans, here is another review, and it's even worse:Elon Musk's "Loop" - It's bad, folks

author: hooker1uk
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: January 31, 2019, 06:52:19 pm
content: I was watching the launch of Tesla's tunnel and found it hilarious that all he's done is create a flippin guided roadway.Adelaide has one with tunnelshttps://www.adelaidemetro.com.au/Timetables-Maps/Special-Services/Adelaide-O-Bahnand without tunnels in Cambridgehttps://www.thebusway.info/And my home Towns Luton and Dunstablehttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luton_to_Dunstable_Busway(sorry - the local busway site does not work now - local council stupidity at it's finest!)

author: Deodand2014
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2019, 05:47:22 am
content: Quote from: BrianHG on January 28, 2019, 05:45:03 pmAnd he has a good point, all these 'gadgetbahn' proposals end up looking like trains, which is the supposedly 'obsolete' technology the new system will replace. At least with the guided busways in Adelaide they're still using ordinary service buses with that scheme and they've got a pretty good set up with the 'night bus' routes provided you get to the stops in time otherwise it's a long wait between buses.It's also nice to see someone on that side of politics calling out nonsense like Elon Musks and Solar 'effing' roadways.