Wanted: Best 4/16ch MSO for 1100 US$ (1000 EURO) or less? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: carl_lab
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2016, 11:35:05 am
content: Hello,please someone give me advice for buying a 4/16ch MSO for maximum 1100 US$ (1000 EURO).- no PC/USB type oscilloscope- 70/100 MHz analog BW (upgradeability preferred)- 4 analog channels (seperate knobs per channelpreferred, not like LeCroy - one set of knobs for all channels)- upgradeability "MSO ready" to 16 digital channels usable simultaneously to the 4 analog channels- serial decoding (and triggering) for analog and digital channels (I²C, RS232, SPI, ...)- maybe CAN decoding and triggering upgradability-maybe USB/2/3 decoding and triggering upgradability- availability from european/german distributor (warranty)I'd prefer devices, that can be bought in a cheaper "base" version, and upgraded later by software, and of course especially those, you can get working "hacks" for upgrading.Because of maximum price of 1100 US$ (1000 EURO) I think, only chinese makers will be left over...What do you think, is chinese stuff usable or just cheap crap that isn't worth the money?

author: JPortici
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2016, 11:45:16 am
content: If you have a PCIf you don't have need for high voltageConsider a picoscope. You can try the software in "demo mode" so you can look around all the functions.Only thing i'm not sure about is serial decode triggering and usb 3 decoding.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2016, 11:45:46 am
content: I think only Rigol makes something in that price range that comes close.Even then you won't get:- Seperate(sic) knobs per channel- CAN decoding and triggering- USB/2/3 decoding and triggering (you need a lot more than 100MHz BW for that)Plus: The screen is a bit small to fit all that information on and the "MSO" version of the Rigol 'scopes is very difficult to hack. You may have to pay for the serial decoders, etc.http://www.batronix.com/shop/rigol/MSO1000Z.html

author: carl_lab
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2016, 11:51:45 am
content: Oh, I forgot to mention:I don't like the PC/USB scopes. I want to turn knobs by my fingers, not by mouse on PC screen.You mentioned Rigol - is BW Instek an alternative to?CAN and USB3 are "nice to have" but not essential.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2016, 11:59:44 am
content: Quote from: carl_lab on October 12, 2016, 11:35:05 amThat's very little money for such a scope. You're pretty much stuck with Rigol MSO1104z here.QuoteWell, the MSO1104z has a single vertical encoder, pretty much like most scopes in that price segment.QuoteThere's no CAN in the MSO1104z.QuoteYou're joking, right? FYI: USB2 SuperSpeed requires a 2Ghz scope, and USB3.x a 13Ghz scope. Even USB1.0 wants 250Mhz BW.Have a look here:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/busses-serial-links-and-required-scope-bandwidth/msg873252/#msg873252QuoteBatronix has the MSO1104z on offer.QuoteThat depends on what you want to do and your expectations, really. I personally would rather buy a 2nd hand big brand scope than a new Chinese B-brand scope, but that's me. Others are perfectly happy with their Chinese B-brand gear.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2016, 12:04:49 pm
content: Quote from: carl_lab on October 12, 2016, 11:51:45 amNot in your price range.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2016, 12:06:58 pm
content: Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on October 12, 2016, 11:59:44 amNot even that. You're limited to the MSO1074Z if you only have $1100 and have to pay for serial decoders.

author: HighVoltage
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2016, 12:19:02 pm
content: You might want to watch this one and get lucky in Germany.Keysight MSOX3104T Oszilloskop, 4 + 16 Kanal, Touch Screen, 1 GHz bis 5 GSa/shttp://www.ebay.de/itm/252578197403May be ask the seller, what his minimum is for selling.Sitting at: EUR 671,00 right now.

author: carl_lab
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2016, 12:20:41 pm
content: Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on October 12, 2016, 11:59:44 amI can't deny: I'm pretty clueless concerning USB...Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on October 12, 2016, 11:59:44 amWhich used scope will you recommend?I think, here in Germany used equippment is much more expensive compared to US.

author: JPortici
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2016, 12:25:45 pm
content: Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on October 12, 2016, 11:59:44 amNice one. Thanks!Quote from: carl_lab on October 12, 2016, 11:51:45 amCAN alone will probably get you over budget on a "physical" scope. Siglent and GWi are the startersThat's up to you of course, i'd usually tend to agree with you but if you want to do real work, with you budget constraint a pico is something you can't overlook. Your money is going on acquisition only and not in trying to keep up an user interface.Plus a biiiiig screen and all the data is already csv, or matlab compatible.It also depends on how your work area is laid out, of course. Working on certain stuff, or when near the PC, i hook up the (2 chan) pico. Absolutely need 4 chan....... basically that, i reach for another scope.(though if i had a lecroy i would costantly play with that lovely black lady)

author: carl_lab
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2016, 12:31:55 pm
content: Quote from: HighVoltage on October 12, 2016, 12:19:02 pmNicht wirklich:"Frage: Wie hoch ist denn ihr Mindestpreis? DankeAntwort: Der Mindestpreis ist 3499 EUR. MfG"Quote from: JPortici on October 12, 2016, 12:25:45 pmLeCroy is no alternative, they make impressing scopes, but not for my private budget...

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2016, 12:33:49 pm
content: Quote from: carl_lab on October 12, 2016, 11:35:05 amBe prepared to live with shortcomings (bugs) and features with little practical use (like short/slow FFT, decoding only what is on screen, high-res modes being limited to only a few kpts of memory). I lost my appetite for cheap Chinese scopes after I got burned pretty bad a couple of years ago by believing the firmware would get fixed soon. So make sure to test everything on a scope right after you buy it and if you find anything you can't live with return it immediately. If you can drop the MSO requirement and stretch your budget a bit more you could buy the GW Instek GDS-2074E (70MHz 4 channels). Otherwise settle for a hacked Rigol 1054Z but don't expect miracles (even though it seems Rigol has ironed out most of the problematic issues recently).Going for a used scope is an option as well IF you don't want decoding. Protocol decoding is relatively new so not available on older higher end oscilloscopes which would fit in your budget. Otherwise one of the older Agilent MSOs could be interesting but I don't know whether these where ever made with 4 analog channels.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2016, 12:49:57 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on October 12, 2016, 12:33:49 pmLuckily for Rigol buyers, it's one of the most dissected and studied 'scopes available on the market. There are (hopefully) zero unknowns with regards to bugs, etc.Quote from: nctnico on October 12, 2016, 12:33:49 pmCorrect. Rigol today is about as bug-free as oscilloscopes get. I think we're down to a spelling mistake in one of the menus.Quote from: nctnico on October 12, 2016, 12:33:49 pmThat ignores out one of the most basic requirements ("MSO").But... why is that a requirement? Four analog channels with serial decoding goes a long way and you still have $700 left over from the budget for a separate logic analyzer if you need one. Even if you buy a top-end Saleae device you'llstillhave money left. Insisting on an MSO-with-everything doesn't make much sense if you have a limited budget.

author: carl_lab
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2016, 01:26:45 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on October 12, 2016, 12:49:57 pmWhat about the Rigol DS1074Zplusor Rigol DS1104Zplus?http://www.batronix.com/shop/oscilloscopes/Rigol-DS1074Z-Plus.htmlAre they as bugfree and well known as the 1054Z?Is there an overview, which features are upgradable by software?And which working hacks are available?

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2016, 01:52:33 pm
content: Quote from: carl_lab on October 12, 2016, 01:26:45 pmThe "plus" is a DS1074Z which can be upgraded (by paying money) to the MSO1074ZQuote from: carl_lab on October 12, 2016, 01:26:45 pmThe firmware is probably the same.Quote from: carl_lab on October 12, 2016, 01:26:45 pmAt the bottom of that page there's a list of options.http://www.batronix.com/shop/oscilloscopes/Rigol-DS1074Z-Plus.htmleg. The €249 "Rigol MSO1000Z Upgrade" is to unlock the MSO option (and includes the logic probes).The €165 "Serial Decoder" option is to unlock the serial decoders.As far as I know there's no easy way to hack/unlock the software options on the "plus" models. Only the base models can be unlocked with a simple keygen.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2016, 02:10:08 pm
content: Quote from: carl_lab on October 12, 2016, 12:20:41 pmHard to say without knowing what exactly you want to do with it. But considering your narrow budget and that you want MSO there really isn't a lot of choice. There's the Agilent 54622D but that's a 2ch MSO (and does UART/SPI/CAN), but I personally would take it over a Rigol any day. They often go for <$300 or so which means there would be room for some decent probes or other gear in your budget.With some luck you might also be able to find an Agilent MSO6000 within your budget.Now, if you can be flexible on the MSO part and rather get an USB LA (which also does protocol decoding) then there are a few more options, some of which can also offer you more BW.But again, without knowing what you want to do, it's all guesswork only, really.QuoteNot much different here in the Brexit UK, but still buying abroad gives more choice and often more reasonable prices - even after shipping and VAT/customs.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2016, 02:50:46 pm
content: Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on October 12, 2016, 02:10:08 pmIf one (MSO6000/DSO6000) is available for 1000 euro then it would probably be the best option by far.

author: carl_lab
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2016, 04:06:01 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on October 12, 2016, 02:50:46 pmIt's hard to believe, to get a working MSO6000 for 1000 bucks.If someone want to sell me his device, please send PM.At work, we bought a MSOX3034T for ~5000 EURO or ~5500 US$ (used demo device).Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on October 12, 2016, 02:10:08 pmIs the 54622D much different to the 54645D? Maybe I could get one...Didn't know these old scopes had any decoding ability...

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2016, 04:10:57 pm
content: Almost there:http://www.ebay.com/itm/Keysight-Used-DSO6014A-Oscilloscope-4-channel-100-MHz-Agilent-DSO6014A-/172357211394http://www.ebay.com/itm/Keysight-Used-DSO6034A-Oscilloscope-4-channel-300-MHz-Agilent-DSO6034A-/172349087261These can be hacked for decoding and MSO options.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2016, 04:28:48 pm
content: Quote from: carl_lab on October 12, 2016, 04:06:01 pmHere you go:http://www.ebay.com/itm/Agilent-Keysight-MSO6032A-Mixed-Signal-Oscilloscope-2-16-Channel-300Mhz-NICE-/222209457957?hash=item33bcb73f25:g:-5kAAOSwaB5Xo2AAQuoteYes, but that's a current scope. The MSO6k is approx 6-10 yrs old.QuoteThe 54645D is older (it's HP labelled), doesn't do UART/SPI/CAN, and only has 1Mpts memory. The 54622D is the successor generation, labelled Agilent, slightly more modern UI, and with 4Mpts or 8Mpts (can't remember).QuoteThe Agilent 54600s have serial trigger capability but if I remember right they can do decode as well. But it's been many years since I saw one (I have a 54645D but again that's the older HP variant) so maybe someone else could comment.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2016, 04:41:18 pm
content: Note that on the DSO/MSO6000 series, decodes are only available for units with 4 analogue channels, regardless of MSO or not.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2016, 06:23:12 pm
content: I think there's a promo deal on these at the moment:http://www.siglenteu.com/pdxx.aspx?id=1195&T=2&tid=1It'll do everything you've listed except USB.Thread:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent's-new-product-sds2000x-series/Study of the FW:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000-new-v2-firmware/

author: carl_lab
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2016, 07:08:02 pm
content: Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on October 12, 2016, 04:28:48 pmThank you.At first sight it looks OK, but I have to add 250$ shipping and about 30% import tax.900$+250$=1150$30% = 345$Total: 1495$ = 1350 EURO , and it has 2 analog channels only.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2016, 07:11:09 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on October 12, 2016, 04:41:18 pmIndeed which is why I only linked to 4 channel models. AFAIK the DSO/MSO6000 can also trigger on USB packets (1.5Mbit and 12Mbit).@carl_lab: are you sure about 30% import tax? Usually it is only VAT and 1 or 2 percent extra which should get into the ballpark of 23%.

author: carl_lab
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2016, 07:40:56 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on October 12, 2016, 07:11:09 pmNo I'm not sure about it, that's why I wrote "about 30%". That's what I paid for import from China.Anyway, about 5% difference is not the problem, it's the missing ability of decoding at the 2+16ch models.Quote from: tautech on October 12, 2016, 06:23:12 pmIf I chose the 70MHz model SDS2074X they deliver 100MHz modelSDS2104Xfor the same price (1099 EURO).That's not bad, but you also have to order the upgrade kit (serial decode, 16ch LA, 16ch probes,...) for 434 EURO. Total plus 19% VAT =1825 EURO.That's a lot more than my personal limit...So, aused Agilent DSO6014A or DSO6034Amaybe the solution, if I could get one in good condition and for a reasonable price from german or european seller.Quote from: nctnico on October 12, 2016, 04:10:57 pmIs this...https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/agilent-mso-500060007000-anyone-hacked-these-scopes/... the place to find all the info you need for hacking?

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2016, 08:07:41 pm
content: Quote from: carl_lab on October 12, 2016, 07:40:56 pmIf I where you I'd try and buy one of the DSO6000 I linked to a few posts earlier fromKeysight's Ebay factory outlet. Yes, you can buy used scopes with a 30 day warranty from Keysight. Keysight is known to take reasonable best offers and shipping from Malaysia doesn't need to be expensive. The DSO6000 isn't the newest model but the 8Mpts memory is twice of what the modern Keysight scopes (2000/3000/4000 series) offer but otherwise the features are very close. IF you can stretch your budget I strongly advise to get the DSO6014 because it fits your requirements the best for the least amount of money.Quote from: carl_lab on October 12, 2016, 07:40:56 pmhttps://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/agilent-mso-500060007000-anyone-hacked-these-scopes/

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2016, 09:43:27 pm
content: Quote from: carl_lab on October 12, 2016, 11:35:05 amA spreadsheet would work well here. You aren't going to get what you want for the price you want to pay. So, create rows of requirements, add a scaling factor for how important the feature might be and go from there.If MSO is an absolute must have, why even discuss DSOs? If USB is a 50% requirement, give the feature some credit when comparing prices. In any event, make columns for every scope you want to consider and see what shakes out. Features would include: channels, bandwidth, knob/channel, memory size, decoding capability, cost of decoding, <whatever is important to you>I certainly can't see buying an obsolete/discontinued Keysight 100 MHz DSO out of Malaysia when I can buy a 100 MHz Rigol for 1/3 the money and have 3 times the memory and all of the serial decode (when hacked).Everybody has a favorite scope.As to cost: If this is for a hobby, say so! If it is for a commercial/industrial application, requirements can be more rigid and costs can go higher.I'm growing rather fond of my DS1054Z. It's my first, and probably my last, digital scope. I have the advantage of having a 350 MHz Tektronix 485 should I run out of bandwidth but that isn't likely. I wanted the decoding and it has been a treat. I also wanted 4 channels to deal with SPI and that works out well. All of the 'bugs' have been worked out except for a minor spelling error and they'll probably get that on the next upgrade.It isn't really about the money, it's about how much to spend for my present level of interest in electronics. I don't do GHz stuff, most everything wiil be 50 MHz or less and often much less. I am currently looking at damped harmonic motion with a time base of 500ms/div. Pretty slow stuff. Or, I'll be looking at SPI at 10 MHz - it just depends on what I want to play with today.Anyway, think it through carefully. There are a lot of scopes out there and all have pluses and minuses. Rank them by feature and price to see where they all stack up.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2016, 10:04:22 pm
content: The DSO6000 can also be hacked to have all the protocol decoding, MSO and many other options like power analysis. If you put the DSO6000 next to the Rigol 1000Z you'll notice there is no place to start comparing because the DSO6000 is in an entirely different league (starting with the 1024x768 screen). I have the DSO7000A which is mostly the same as the DSO6000 with a bigger screen + different form factor and it is a great scope to use. If you can get all that for around 1500 to 1600 euro it is a good deal for a daily use scope.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2016, 10:29:43 pm
content: Quote from: rstofer on October 12, 2016, 09:43:27 pmHow?The OP has given enough detail of his requirements to make a informed recommendation.QuoteAny manufacturer's website and instrument datasheet will show whether their product will meet his spec or not.Simple.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2016, 11:25:49 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on October 12, 2016, 10:29:43 pmThere are always tradeoffs. Given the shopping list of features, the budget doesn't look hopeful.So, instead of just stating 'gotta haves', rank them by priority and then compare actual scopes versus features versus price. Everything is negotiable when it comes to money. Otherwise we would be discussing real high end scopes.An example is the MSO option. For true mixed signal, it is required, no question about it. As a logic analyzer, well, a real logic analyzer may have much more sophisticated triggering. Dave did a video on the topic of MSO versus logic analyzer. How many times does true mixed signal come up in the hobby community? If this scope is for a hobby, maybe never.So, if mixed signal is a real requirement, fine! If it is just a line on a wish list, well, maybe there are better alternatives. At the least, it shouldn't drive an unnecessary solution.Does knob/channel REALLY matter? What difference if you have to tap the channel select button before using a common knob? Scopes are available both ways but does it REALLY matter? When it comes to money?Is sample memory size a feature worth pricing? It would seem to me, as a new user of DSOs, that more memory is a good thing. But is it the kind of feature that is worth money? To me, yes!Only the OP can put worth to features. I don't imagine I will ever do true mixed signal that I can't view on 4 analog channels. The OP might! I don't object to hitting the channel select button but the OP might. Or he might not if there is money involved. Think about real scope usage: I tend to use just one channel more than half the time. I might use another channel as a trigger but once it is set, I will probably turn that channel off. So, once I select the active channel, I will never do it again. It will simply be the only active channel.There are probably a dozen candidate scopes to consider (if we blow off USB) and the prices will range from a few hundred to a couple of thousand. How to choose?If USB is REALLY a requirement, none of the scopes discussed above need apply. But a USB sniffer might be handy!I just don't see how people make decisions without reviewing a ton of facts.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2016, 11:50:33 pm
content: As the OP has offered a list, let's examine it.BW, well 100 MHz is the most common starting level in an instrument like the OP wants.4 channels, sure we don't use 4 very often, well most of us don't. Separate controls...hell yeah.MSO "capable". This impliesif neededin the future that the software AND HW options need to be available and user installable.Decode....just another option. Can be added at any time.CAN, included in many decode packages, but not all. The OP need check which protocols and triggering are included in ANY instrument option package. The full serial protocol triggering suite is standard in Siglent DSO's.USB, as mentioned before it's very unlikely to be available at this BW level of scope.Local distributor, implies a new purchase ? The OP is somewhat lucky as many manufacturers have a permanent presence in Germany.Others might have a different spin on how to interpret the OP's requirement but I don't see any problems in meeting his needs.

author: carl_lab
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2016, 11:52:55 pm
content: Thanks for all your replies!No, USB and CAN decoding is not required, as I said just only "nice to have".The scope will be used in my hobby lab, so my budged is limited.1000 EURO was just a number in my head, maybe I have to increase.It's a difficult decision which scope will fit my coming expectations...

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2016, 12:09:32 am
content: Quote from: carl_lab on October 12, 2016, 11:52:55 pmYou can't know what your future requirements will be. So, buy something and use it up! When it becomes inadequate, sell it and buy something else. In the meantime, you will have gained a lot of insight into which features work best for you.There's an article "Choosing an Oscilloscope" in the October 2016 edition of Nuts and Volts magazine. I don't see where it blazes new territory but at least the main considerations are written down. No specific model comparisons.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2016, 12:15:18 am
content: If you are close to Batronix or PLUG-IN Electronic go and have a test of what they have to offer.http://www.siglenteu.com/howtobuy.aspxMaybe Siglent's Hamburg office has demo units, give them a yell.http://www.siglenteu.com/lxwms.aspx?id=1110

author: carl_lab
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2016, 12:25:09 am
content: Quote from: tautech on October 12, 2016, 11:50:33 pmSiglent SDS2104X? 1800 EURO is nearly twice the money I wanted to spend.Asking for a Demo model is a nice idea...I really don't know much about Siglent...Could you make a ranking list regarding make quality oft these makers?1. Agilent/HP/Keysight?. Siglent?. BW Instek?. Rigol?. Owon

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2016, 12:38:14 am
content: Quote from: carl_lab on October 13, 2016, 12:25:09 amList price on the website for a SDS2074X (70 MHz) is € 1099. I mentioned the promo much earlier in this thread, that is you'll get a BW upgrade free of charge to 100 MHz.http://www.siglenteu.com/pdxx.aspx?id=1195&T=2&tid=1QuoteI've provided links for you to doyour ownresearch and makeyour ownconclusions earlier in this thread.All I'll do is provide you with any info you wish, you have to make the decision on what you want and how much you're happy to spend.These threads as you probably know have the potential to turn into pissing competitions....this scopes better that that and so on.Take your time to check out specs, print out a heap of datasheets, do the study and then come back with a preference/s for additional guidance IF you need any.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2016, 05:16:31 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on October 12, 2016, 07:11:09 pmYou're right, my badWell, that removes the MSO6000 from the list of options then.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2016, 05:22:30 am
content: Quote from: carl_lab on October 13, 2016, 12:25:09 am1. Agilent/HP/Keysight3. GW Instek...5. Rigol6. Siglent7. OWON

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2016, 06:55:39 am
content: Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on October 13, 2016, 05:22:30 amCan we take anything you say with a grain of salt?Not 5 minutes after you post this^^^ you post this in another thread:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/osciloscope-recommendation/msg1046794/#msg1046794Quote

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2016, 08:05:25 am
content: I really like how these topics with theme "I'm not very advanced user and would like to buy something that would allow me to do basic things but I don't have much money" degrade to discussion how a $10000 scope is better than one you can buy for $350..Yes we know. It better be. I know that Porsche 911 GT3 RS is a better car than Renault Clio Sport.. But one is 25000€ and other is 150000€.. that is six times more, and "normal " people buy a Clio AND the house for that kind of money... And that Clio Sport is actually too fast for an average driver anyways.. And way too much fun...Everybody should stay on the topic...He said sub 1000€ ..That leaves used scopes and new Chinese ones..I would personally buy Rigol DS1000Z series and be done with it... Or a other favourite chinese brand.As somebody said nicely elsewhere, despite all hate, they will all show wiggly lines on the screen that you need for troubleshooting.. And decently at that.All you need to make sure it has enough bandwidth..And for doing any kind of protocol decoding, buy separate inexpensive USB device..Reason: for protocol decoding you need BIG screen. Lots of data to look at.. Or get a used old professional protocol analyzer.. But only if you have time to make it work first..My life experience showed me that logic of buying most expensive equipment because I MIGHT need it one day is very expensive and ineffective. I buy only things I need on a regular basis. Rest I borrow or rent,once in two years I need it.Also, warranty is good thing.. Things happen.And in few years, when you forget that you paid for it at all, so little it was, and if you realized you need new measurement capability, you can upgrade to something else..Practice to keep an instrument for 20 years was something that was necessity.. It use to cost as much as a car, and like a car you wanted to last as long as you can to pay off..Now, every year, something new comes out, new models, better features...Of course if you need to troubleshoot something in microwave region, work on designing USB3 transceivers, or communicating via Multi-Gigabit SerDes you can't do that on entry level equipment..For that you will need 100000€ easy... But then you are working on a project that will pay for it, right...

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2016, 08:09:39 am
content: Quote from: tautech on October 13, 2016, 06:55:39 amSalt, Sugar, soy Sauce, whatever you want. I'd stay away from the booze, thoughQuoteNot sure where you see a contradiction. IMHO there isn't much difference between Rigol and Siglent (Siglent has been a bit better in hardware and worse in software than Rigol), but if you get hung up because I put Rigol on #5 and Siglent on #6 then that's not because I value Rigol higher than Siglent (I don't, really) but simply because 'R' comes before 'S' in the alphabet. I would however value OWON slightly below both Rigol and Siglent, but at the end of the day, the difference between all the B-brands is overall pretty marginal.YMMV of course.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2016, 08:19:21 am
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on October 13, 2016, 08:05:25 amMaybe, but that isn't one of them.QuoteYeah, but he also said 70-100Mhz, 4ch, MSO, separate vertical controls and serial decode for CAN and USB1/2/3. Which is not possible within that budget.Which leave two options:- Cut down on the requirements and find something that fits in the budgetor- Increase the budget to get something which at least satisfies the most important bit of the requirements.I'm not sure why you apparently believe that only the first option is worth discussing.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2016, 08:58:03 am
content: Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on October 13, 2016, 08:19:21 amI see now the communication problem.. You are completely correct on all counts..It isn't possible with that budget. I agree 100% but if :1. If budget is hard limited (aka. I have only 1000€, and maybe 10% more, but that's it..) i have to either decide to :a. Give up on some features.. to keep it in budgetb. Decide I can use simpler (and much cheaper scope ) and do serial decoding on a separate device, which together will add up to 1000€. It will not be elegant, but will give me the capabilities.. A sort of solution we were using long time ago when no MSO were widely available..2. I actually (or my company) have plenty of money, and 1000€ was just a recommendation... Then I would do exactly as you would, and think as you are.. There is a hard spec, lets see how much we have to pay to get that.. Obviously, as little as possible, but actual sum is not a problem, just make a good deal..So you and I don't disagree, I just thought he has a 1000€ hard limit, usually when people don't they don't write exact number.. They ask for something like "mid range" or something like that.So my presumption, or point of view was that he has 1000 and only 1000€ to squeeze it as much as he can .. Your presumption or point of view is that he should find a way to get more money to get what he wanted... Neither are wrong.. Only he knows what his priorities are here..Best regards ,Siniša

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2016, 09:05:49 am
content: If it's for a company then time is money. Having integrated decode can easily pay for itself in saved time.A used MSO60x4A, hacked for decode and MSO is likely to be the best bang for the buck you will get in this range.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2016, 09:35:19 am
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on October 13, 2016, 08:58:03 amWell, it seems the limit actually isn't that hard:Quote from: carl_lab on October 12, 2016, 11:52:55 pmI guess the real problem is that some monetary figure and a batch of top-level specs are hardly enough to make a sensible recommendation. Without knowing what the scope is going to be used for, and where the actual budget limit is, it's pretty much all guesswork.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2016, 09:41:22 am
content: Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on October 13, 2016, 09:35:19 amCouldn't agree more...

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2016, 09:47:01 am
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on October 13, 2016, 08:05:25 amMe too. It's going to be far more capable than you think, I don't see how anybody would regret buying one. People go on and on endlessly about "bugs" in the DS1054Z but in reality they're quite minor, in functions you never use, etc. The fact is that it shows wiggly lines on screen perfectly, and that's 99.9999% of what oscilloscopes are used for. Plus the bugs are fixed now in the latest firmware.Of course there are better oscilloscopes out there. You're only paying $400 in a market where people pay $10,000. Most boys had posters of Ferraris and Lamborghinis on their bedroom walls but grew up to buy ordinary cars. Ordinary cars work, the DS1054Z works. The oscilloscope snobs in these forums need to get over themselves.Would I personally buy an MSO? No. Knobs and dials on a device with a small screen and limited RAM is simply the wrong user interface for logic analysis. The extra money spent on an MSO would be better spent on a proper logic analyzer that connects to a PC. PCs have a mouse, a keyboard, a large screen, and virtually unlimited RAM.Would I go second hand for my first oscilloscope? I dunno. There's a big risk of a hidden problem. If you're an old dog who's use to opening up old oscilloscopes and swapping parts then that's OK but are the people on here telling newbies to buy second hand 'scopes on eBay going to take responsibility if it doesn't work when it arrives? I doubt it. Me? I think it's bad advice. I prefer to tell newbies to get something with a manufacturer's warranty.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2016, 10:14:28 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on October 13, 2016, 09:47:01 amI think you also missed the part 'Buying from Keysight's official factory outlet'. Keysight will answer questions about any type of equipment they made to their best ability so support is top notch. Besides that I'm quite sure extra warranty can be bought for a used DSO6000 series.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2016, 10:23:05 am
content: Quote from: carl_lab on October 13, 2016, 12:25:09 amTrust me: you want to keep it that way. In general their firmware is riddled with bugs and some features have no practical use (checkbox feature). I bought a Siglent SDS2204 a couple of years ago but the scope turned out to be unuseable. The promised firmware updates fixed nothing or just didn't come. If you read the thread about the SDS2000X series (updated SDS2000) you'll see there are still many bugs and shortcomings (like Hires mode only working on 14kps record length). I ended up wasting a lot of money and in the end I sold the scope for scrap! The dealer didn't even want to take it back.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2016, 10:36:05 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on October 13, 2016, 10:14:28 amIs there a 4 channel DSO6000 on 'Keysight's official factory outlet' for the stated budget? The ones you posted were $1500 and $2170 respectively.Quote from: nctnico on October 13, 2016, 10:14:28 amAnd will probably cost more than a new DSO.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2016, 10:43:56 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on October 13, 2016, 10:36:05 amAnd? As the OP wrote 1000 euro is just a number in his head AND Keysight is knows to take best offers so it may be possible to knock a couple of hundred of the prices in the Keysight store.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2016, 11:00:21 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on October 13, 2016, 10:43:56 amAnd? He also said he lives in Germany. I'm sure the German customs will happily add more than a couple of hundred back onto the price. If Keysightdoesn'tknock anything off then it could become double the number in his head.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2016, 11:06:55 am
content: Double? Only after he has been drinking too much. Please stop the FUD. Import duties are easy to look up and VAT is on every store receipt.

author: HighVoltage
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2016, 11:09:28 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on October 13, 2016, 11:00:21 amActually, when you buy from the Keysight store and live in Germany, the invoicing is done through Keysight Germany.I bought a few things from them and never had a problem.Also, the German Keysight distributor has some amazing deals right now, like 60% off on scopes.May be they are hard to sell at the moment.Edit: Added one more attachment

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2016, 11:09:56 am
content: Quote from: carl_lab on October 12, 2016, 07:40:56 pmI don't know about Germany but here in Spain you get to pay VAT plus all sorts of extra "administration fees".

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2016, 11:11:33 am
content: Quote from: HighVoltage on October 13, 2016, 11:09:28 amOK, if you say so (and are prepared to garantee that to the OP) then...

author: R005T3r
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2016, 11:27:31 am
content: Quote from: carl_lab on October 12, 2016, 11:35:05 amAt this point, my best advice would be save up. With 600 Eur more, you can get a 4 channel R&S HMO model 70Mhz upgradable to 100Mhz. You will have most of the benefits you listed.For USB decoding, I don't think it's something you can do with an oscilloscope, you probably need a protocol analyzer to deal with that kind of traffic, since there are adresses, datas and control signals involved...

author: JPortici
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2016, 11:31:37 am
content: costs nothing to drop a line to keysight/keysight ebay store and ask. It would actually be big points for keysight if they really did thatbut of course you won't be happy until there will be only rigol on this planet (maybe not even then)by the way, here as in most of europe you pay VAT + some percent. the other fees are from the courier/post because he is SO MUCH kind that he does the paperwork and pay customs for you without even asking. in exchange for an additional fee of course

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2016, 12:10:37 pm
content: Quote from: JPortici on October 13, 2016, 11:31:37 amSo basically: You don't know for sure.Quote from: JPortici on October 13, 2016, 11:31:37 amIn fact you sound quite unsure.Quote from: JPortici on October 13, 2016, 11:31:37 amApart from all the times I say don't get a Rigol.And I can't help it if most of the questions here are of the form "I've only got $XXX to spend...". That's not my fault.The simple fact is: Rigol rules the sub-$1200 category (at the moment).Quote from: JPortici on October 13, 2016, 11:31:37 amNot true! I can get things without paying the extra. So long as I'm prepared to travel 300km to Madrid to get it in person.

author: carl_lab
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2016, 12:28:45 pm
content: Quote from: R005T3r on October 13, 2016, 11:27:31 amYes, yesterday I had a look at the R&S website.Quote from: R005T3r on October 13, 2016, 11:27:31 amUSB is off the stove, I'll probably never use that feature.So I crossed it out in my first posting.I think, I'll go for a used agilent DSO6014A or DSO6034A, if I can get one for a good price.If not, eventually Rigol or GW Instek... I'm not quite certain.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2016, 12:41:26 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on October 13, 2016, 12:10:37 pmAnd let's be very, very clear. Let's see if this will finally get past the thick skulls of the Rigol haters here:Ionlyrecommend the DS1054Z because it's unlockable/hackable. If you draw a graph of price vs. performance the DS1054Z competes squarely with 'scopes which cost $1200.If it wasn't hackable I'd be recommending GW-Instek in the $400 range, no question. Maybe something by R&S if you're going to spend over $1000.(apologies in advance for the off-topic, I'm just responding to an underhanded insult)

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2016, 01:02:07 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on October 13, 2016, 12:41:26 pmWith the most recent firmware a hacked DS1054Z is a good deal but on a $1200 scope you can find features missing on the DS1054Z besides a bigger screen, higher samplerate, more memory and faster operation. So if you can spend $1200 a DS1054Z will not be the best buy.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2016, 01:18:20 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on October 13, 2016, 01:02:07 pmSo youfinallyadmit that below about $1200 itisthe best buy. And for only $400! Thanks!(...unlessyou have a very specific need like good FFT performance, in which case get an R&S HMO)

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2016, 01:59:36 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on October 13, 2016, 01:18:20 pmWITH the latest firmware from a couple of weeks ago. You carefully snipped that part.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2016, 03:22:51 pm
content: I think everybody has agreed that you can get a scope twice as good as the DS1054Z if you are willing to pay 3 times as much for it. The '3 times as much' is a hard fact, the 'twice as good' being a subjective measurement.At this point, the entire world knows that the bug list for the DS1054Z is down to one spelling error on a menu. The latest firmware cleaned up the remaining problems and even those were at the fringe of functions. But at least Rigol reads the reviews and works through the problems. I have no idea how many upgrades have come out during the two years the scope has been on the market but it is several. They're working hard on owning the entry level scope market. Nobody is going to pay to add features and bandwidth when Rigol has made no attempt to prevent users from 'hacking' the feature list. We can just assume the latest firmware and all featured enabled when comparing to other scopes. It's a given... There is nothing to be gained by reading through the 121 page bitch list - all that stuff is old news. Similarly, the Yaigol (such a clever name...) thread is obsolete.As to the user's needs? Who knows? They don't! We have this same thread a couple of times a week, endlessly. Somebody wants to buy a scope but they have no idea what they're going to use it for. To make sure they don't run out of features, they price themselves right out of their budget. Yes, I would love to have a mid-range Keysight. But I can't afford it! Or, rather, I could afford it but I have other priorities.In my case, this stuff is just a hobby and only one of several hobbies at that.OP: I would consider the Keysight Malaysia scope if it comes with a warranty but I'm coming around to the conclusion that used scopes are off the table. I got lucky when I bought my Tek 485 and it has worked well for the past 12 years. My experience isn't necessarily typical.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2016, 05:11:06 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on October 13, 2016, 01:59:36 pmNope. It was pretty damn goodlongbefore that, you were just to blind to see it.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2016, 05:15:10 pm
content: Keep on dreaming

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2016, 05:23:16 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on October 13, 2016, 05:15:10 pmTell the world: What exactly was the killer bug that made it completely useless before the last firmware update?I've got the release notes here:Code:v00.04.04.01.01 2016/09/14- Supported the multi-inteface of LXI- Fixed bugs about MeasureThe RMS voltage reading was wrong, that was the "Fixed bugs about Measure" part.But:* It was only wrong in some circumstances* It was very obviously wrong, not subtly wrong* "RMS" probably isn't the value you should have been looking at anyway.Most of the examples posted here to show the 'bug' should have been using "Prms" instead. Prms was giving the correct value.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2016, 09:27:24 pm
content: Quote from: JPortici on October 13, 2016, 11:31:37 amAsk any of the professional sellers on ebay for a shipping quote DDP, then you know the total cost with no surprises. I've been able to get DDP terms quoted from all the major ebay sellers.

author: Howardlong
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2016, 10:25:15 pm
content: Quote from: carl_lab on October 12, 2016, 04:06:01 pmIs the 54622D much different to the 54645D? Maybe I could get one...Didn't know these old scopes had any decoding ability...Sorry a bit late to the party on this thread, but I didn't see this addressed.54622D and 54642D are 2+16 MSOs with CRTs and are both awesome scopes, I have both, but they don't do serial decode. They will do serial triggering, including basic CAN SOF triggering. The 54622D also goes into equivalent time at faster sweeps as it's quite a low 200MHz sampling rate. The 54642D is much better from this perspective at 2GSa/s and is 500MHz bandwidth. Both have reasonable memory depth too. The UI is superb in terms of ease of use and quick response, and is still the basis for Keysight's low to mid range scopes to this day.I also have the MSO1074Z-S, which is my field scope (i.e., it's a tiny lightweight package, full of features, and if it gets lost or damaged in an aircraft hold it's not going to break the bank). For the money it's difficult to fault in any way. Sure there are some minor annoyances but I'll very happily accept its compromises for the value it provides.You'll often find a lot of proponents for separate USB PC based LAs instead of an MSO. For many of the lower cost units, for lower speed stuff then they can be useful, I have a selection, but even then 99 times out of 100 I prefer to use an MSO, although I know others think otherwise. Typically the benefit of an MSO is its triggering ability. On the other hand some LAs offer a post processing mode instead to search for scenarios after the event. My own workflow prefers being able to adjust the triggers rather than analyse enormous captures, but it also depends on the situation.If you can get a second hand 4ch MSO6000 for a grand it's a no brainer. My daily driver is an MSO7000 which is pretty much identical electronically to a 6000 but with a bigger telly.

author: carl_lab
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2016, 06:16:28 pm
content: Thanks, Howard!