Video game "loot boxes" may become federally illegal??......  - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Smokey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 10, 2019, 10:38:22 am
content: https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2019/05/08/video-game-loot-boxes-would-be-outlawed-many-games-under-forthcoming-federal-bill/?utm_term=.0567cb655eb8QuoteQuoteHow about a thought experiment...Lets substitute "loot boxes" for "packs of baseball cards" (or "magic the gathering packs" or "Pokemon card packs" or whatever card game packs) and see how fast law makers get laughed out of the jobs for suggesting making baseball cards federally illegal "because of the children!".Problem solution #1: Stop being negligent parents and being unaware of what your kids are doing with the devices thatyou gave them to play with! If your kids screw up, take responsibility for not doing a good job of supervising and teach your kids a life lesson. That's your job.Problem solution #2: Use the tools the tech companies already give you to address this exact problem:QuoteProblem solution #3: MORE LAWS! Tech is scary!Note:This is actually relevant here because we all have an interest in the tech world and this is an example of a stupid legislative reaction to a problem of scary new technology that's really a result of bad parenting, which is not going away any time soon and a slippery slope further down the road to anything "new" "digital" and "technology" being considered "bad for the children".For example, how about making all Youtube videos illegal since you don't know what ads you are going to see and kids might click them and buy something?

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 10, 2019, 11:17:01 am
content: https://www.ign.com/articles/2018/06/20/the-netherlands-starts-enforcing-its-loot-box-ban

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 10, 2019, 11:50:08 am
content: I'm not that against the idea.These games become immersive and you could claim they are addictive. By offering purchase of stuff - using real money - useful in a players progress through the game, you are using their addiction to extract money. With this becoming a part of the game play, players will head down the path of financial peril. This is taking the "game junkie" and turning them into a true junkie, complete with monetary malice.I find that morally reprehensible and I think legislation to make such entrapment illegal is not inappropriate.

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 10, 2019, 12:06:47 pm
content: Quote from: Smokey on May 10, 2019, 10:38:22 amI find it peculiar how common this statement is. As if simply repeating it were to have any effect? It's like a prayer: it's never heard by those it's directed at, nor is it ever heeded by them any more than chance.Devil's advocate: if the parents don't want to teach their kids, the state SHOULD step up and teach them!Ah, but the counter-argument to that (if you can call it that) is that the state shouldn't dictate what children think. Which, for all the things states get up to, is a very good precaution.But it's also an implicit excuse to do nothing. If we aren't keeping the state accountable, and, we aren't keeping parents accountable, well, then what, we're just a bunch of shitty people, aren't we?That's really what it seems to come down to, making excuses to not be involved in the system, in any way. It's a prayer for apathy.It doesn't matter if you're going to take negligent parents to task directly, or have the state take charge. The effect is equivalent. And the means are equivalent. Getting involved and holding authority accountable.Tim

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 10, 2019, 12:18:33 pm
content: What is loot boxes?

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 10, 2019, 12:31:13 pm
content: Quote from: Bud on May 10, 2019, 12:18:33 pmBasically sort of gambling within video games. In game purchase when instead of buying certain a item, you buy a cat in the sack hoping there is something good in it. Sometimes people spend thousands of dollars until get virtual item they want. IMHO in game purchases should be banned altogether because they negatively affect quality of games. Developers tend to intentionally make games worse, so it can be fixed with in game purchases. Lootboxes being the worst among all kinds of that.

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 10, 2019, 12:33:44 pm
content: Quote from: Bud on May 10, 2019, 12:18:33 pmThe more you play a game, or do in game tasks, the more boxes of 'game' loot you get given. (random weapons, hats, etc. You don't know until opening the box).Usually you can buy game items with real money or get them free in loot boxes if you play enough.It's an incentive to play more and bring more people to a game. Who then may actually buy items with real money to save time.You can also purchase the loot boxes.The company makes money by having a small number of loot boxes contain very desirable objects.While most boxes contain normal items of little in-game value.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 10, 2019, 12:40:55 pm
content: Quote from: Smokey on May 10, 2019, 10:38:22 amReal problem solution: Kick those companies in the butt. That crap appeared only recently and is only getting worse and worse. As people eat that shit game developers shovel to them, legislation is the only real solution.QuoteOne of the most irresponsible and stupid things I've read.

author: Smokey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 10, 2019, 12:41:43 pm
content: Quote from: Brumby on May 10, 2019, 11:50:08 amSpeaking about adults here, where does that thinking end?You can try to make the case that all alcohol should be illegal for everyone because some people are addicted to it. I don't think that's a good idea, but it's probably the least controversial example.Fine. How about another extreme?What about donuts, or sugary drinks, or just food in general? Do we ban food that our bodies tell us tastes REALLY good but isn't the most healty? Give people a government approved daily food allowance? A significant number of people are legitimately addicted to food.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Food_addictionIt's impossible to rid the world of all things that some people will feel compelled to do. Trying that only punishes the majority of people with a normal level of self restraint.And I actually agree that loot boxes generally don't make games better. But everything I don't agree with shoudln't be made federally illegal.As for kids:I'm not sure why saying parents are negligent if they don't take any responsibility for what their kids are doing is controversial. People make the decision to have kids WAY to casually. If you aren't willing to put in the work to take care of your kids, then don't have kids. You can't just push that responsibility off to "the system".If you give your kids a credit card or a phone with the credit card number stored in it (which is what we are talking about here), and the kids buy $10,000 worth of legos off Amazon, that's not Amazon's fault. That's your fault as a parent who gave them access to the credit card. The solution for the parent there is either to: 1) don't give your kids a credit card! 2) Teach them responsibility. 3) Suffer the consequences (then hopefully use that to teach some responsibility).

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 10, 2019, 12:50:10 pm
content: So - we should back off from drug addicts and drug dealers, then?This sort of argument is never going to have consensus, because a line has to be drawn somewhere - and there will always be one problem ... getting everyone to agree where that line gets drawn.

author: Smokey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 10, 2019, 12:55:06 pm
content: Quote from: Brumby on May 10, 2019, 12:50:10 pmI didn't say everything should be legal. But I did say that everything shoulnd't be illegal.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 10, 2019, 12:55:19 pm
content: Quote from: Smokey on May 10, 2019, 10:38:22 amAs this is electronics forum, imagine this. You purchase an oscilloscope. Start measuring signals, then it shows you a message: either you run 1000 loops around me before I do particular job properly, or pay 5 bucks and it might fix the problem. In small letters:there is 1 in 500 chance that you will win necessary option to do the job properly. Otherwise you get something useless.As in beginning it does not pop up that often, people just deal with it. Other oscilloscope manufacturers see it actually works and is an easiest way how to extort money out of customers, and all start doing same shit. As time goes by and people get used to it, it becomes worse and worse. So new oscilloscopes are pain to use without in oscilloscope gambling. In the end you cannot buy an oscilloscope which is comfortable to use out of the box.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 10, 2019, 01:02:43 pm
content: Quote from: Smokey on May 10, 2019, 12:41:43 pmYou can say it the other way around just as well. You can't just push that responsibility off to the parents.Say it becomes that buying meth is as easy as purchasing cola (as it is with loot boxes). Good luck parents individually educating their kids. Not to say most parents don't even know about their existence to begin with.

author: Smokey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 10, 2019, 01:09:13 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on May 10, 2019, 12:55:19 pmGood example. Here is my answer:If that requirement was in the spec for the scope before I bought it, then it's my fault for still buying that scope. Again, personal responsibility. I can then chose to pay the $5, or not use the scope any more. Now, if they do a firmware update which, after the sale, instates such silliness then that's a legal violation and completely different issue.If other scope manufactures all start doing that sillyness and building scopes with such as noted in the spec at time of purchase, then that opens the market to another company that isn't being stupid. No one forces you to buy that OWon scope.If I have a requirement to measure pico-second jitter on some signal, and I still buy a cheap OWon scope now, it won't work and that's my fault. I can't then try to get OWon scopes made illegal because I didn't read the spec or understand it or don't agree with it.

author: Smokey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 10, 2019, 01:14:25 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on May 10, 2019, 01:02:43 pm...I'm going to leave that to stand on it's own.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 10, 2019, 01:19:00 pm
content: Quote from: Smokey on May 10, 2019, 01:09:13 pmMy response it this. In the spec you read: "In oscilloscope purchases available", nothing else.QuoteOnly you likely will end up paying that for hundreds of times before you get what you need.Look at freaking FIFA games. It's a full blown 60 dollar game, not free to play. Yet 2/3 of money EA collects comes from stupid micro transactions. If people don't know what's bad for them, then comes legislation.

author: Smokey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 10, 2019, 01:39:14 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on May 10, 2019, 01:19:00 pmIf you sign a contract without reading it, that's your problem. Just like the scope example, you better make sure the thing you are willing to spend your money on actually does what you need it to do before you buy it. If you are unsure about how something will work but buy it anyway and it doesn't work as you hope then that's your problem. By the way, that's a good life lesson on it's own and applies to much more than kids and oscilloscopes. Good luck returning the car to the dealer when you get it home and realize it doesn't actually go 400mph like you hoped.How about world of warcraft. It's $15 a month. Now consider starting out in wow that there is a certain game time investment just to get your character leveled up to the point that you can start doing stuff like raiding with your friends. Say it takes you 1 month of game time to level up to the cap. Fine. Some people find that fun. Others just want to get it over with. Blizzard offers a "boost" for $60 to just skip that part of the game and have your character max out their level (at least they used to.) That would save the person that doesn't want to grind for a full month all that time and makes their game experience much more pleasurable without effecting anyone else. It's not required but it's an "in game purchase". Should that be illegal too?

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 10, 2019, 01:58:10 pm
content: Quote from: Smokey on May 10, 2019, 01:39:14 pmI played WOW in the past. There were no micro transactions an the past and barely any today. Although I don't like that boost, it's understandable. Game came out in 2004 and had tons of additions since then (each with new higher level cap). Boost allows you to skip all of the old stuff with little players which will take you months to level up through. There are still no loot boxes, which is good. BTW it's not only in game purchase, you can buy game with that included. The crap you get now have those loot boxes since day one.

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 10, 2019, 02:01:11 pm
content: Quote from: Bud on May 10, 2019, 12:18:33 pmLoot boxes are basically treasure troves with random stuff helping your game character to stay alive or to get a better weapon, armour or other things like that. Since computer gaming became essentially online gaming publishers are trying different ways to make money. The last couple of years they've developed two main methods. The first is selling the game and offering in-game purchases for items to advance your player character faster (= additional profit for the publisher). The second one is to offer the game for free, making it hard and cumbersome to advance, but offering in-game purchases for items (mostly loot boxes). Because a loot box contains random stuff and you pay for it with real money it's a kind of online gambling. And since online gambling is a hot topic and online games are also played by minors several countries strongly disagree with that concept of loot boxes.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 10, 2019, 02:04:35 pm
content: Quote from: madires on May 10, 2019, 02:01:11 pmThe third is to sell the game at full price and shovel to customers all of that crap that comes with free to play.

author: Ice-Tea
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 10, 2019, 02:11:48 pm
content: Quote from: Smokey on May 10, 2019, 01:39:14 pmThere's a fundamental difference: thevariablereward part. Pay A and get B is, phychologically, clear and not very addictive. You pay for a service/item. However, if you pay A and get B, C, D, E, F or nothing at all it has an addictive component to it.Gambling is generally accepted (even if it is frowned upon) but it is also regulated. The problem with loot boxes in games is that is gamblingwithoutany kind of regulation.

author: Smokey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 10, 2019, 02:36:03 pm
content: Quote from: Ice-Tea on May 10, 2019, 02:11:48 pmAgain, how is that different from packs of baseball cards?

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 10, 2019, 02:58:52 pm
content: Quote from: Smokey on May 10, 2019, 02:36:03 pmThe pack contains a specified number of baseball cards, the loot box contains a random number of random things.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 10, 2019, 04:04:38 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on May 10, 2019, 12:55:19 pmexcept the game doesn't do anything useful. it's just timepass ....

author: ajb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 10, 2019, 05:14:38 pm
content: Quote from: madires on May 10, 2019, 02:58:52 pmI don't know about sports cards, but TCG booster packs at least generally guarantee you a certain number of common/uncommon/rare cards per pack, which is far more certainty than you get out of a loot box. You also have the option to entirely short-circuit probability by buying the specific card you want on the open market, though obviously at a much higher per-card cost.Really, loot boxes closely resemble gambling in many key respects, including the way that they affect people psychologically. Given that gambling is widely regulated, why shouldn't things that are functionally equivalent be similarly regulated?

author: jonovid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 10, 2019, 05:33:49 pm
content: pay to win is killing video gaming . to cheat, just buy what you need.everybody gets a trophy

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 10, 2019, 05:38:35 pm
content: Quote from: jonovid on May 10, 2019, 05:33:49 pmIf it was just pay to win, it would not be that bad. Often it's more like won't pay, you'll suck, even in some full priced games. Games get designed in a way that it becomes pain to not pay, and particularly loot boxes make it 5x worse.

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 10, 2019, 05:54:24 pm
content: QuoteWhat the difference between internet porn and going to the shady DVD store?Social stigma and instant gratification.When you have to go to a brick and mortar store to buy packs of cards, the guy behind the counter will be there watching you buy pack after pack, opening them right there, looking for your super rare Pokemon Pigaloo and not finding it, buying more. If you are a child, the guy behind the counter might start asking questions. He might start to worry about you. He might offer some friendly advice or try to distract you from your mission out of empathy. Other customers might also give you funny looks. Plus you have to actually at least leave the house and go somewhere, so you have to at least be competent enough to eat and dress and physically make it to the store. You'll have to wait in line when those other bothersome customers want to check out. And plus the store will eventually run out of cards, lol.I'm usually all about personal liberties, but parents had a hard enough time to watch their kids when the internet didn't exist. This stuff has a permanent affect on the dopamine reward circuitry of a developing brain, even if the parents are able to get a refund/chargeback after the fact.

author: SparkyFX
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 10, 2019, 05:57:46 pm
content: Quote from: Smokey on May 10, 2019, 02:36:03 pmThere are usually no unprinted, weightless, white cards in the pack - all of them have a minimum value and market price. By investing a lot of effort you are able to select, collect and score rare ones with higher value. Effort does directly influence the outcome.Now the problem is that a single game has a single manufacturer who appoints a value to the white, weightless, unprinted card and is therefore defining the market price/value of something that could be seen like currency and took him practically no effort to copy. He is the only place where you can spend the money, there is usually no free market for it. It would be like printing money in their own created market.And even baseball cards can be seen as an asset and relevant for tax or debt. They are in many ways similar, but at least a physical good.MMOs are usually highly addiction focused, with a certain pace in which lifts happen as long as you put effort in.People like lifts, people can buy lifts or premium content in these games with real money (also no effort to copy there), but selling random rewards for money makes it unregulated gambling. I struggle a bit to see differences to raffles, but well... there you have a limited amount of lots and raffle prizes per draw so anyone can calculate his chances before purchasing a lot. Even basic gambling machines need a certain payout rate to be legal here, next to age restrictions and a permit to operate them. Gambling addictions are hard, btw.EU law was changed in this regard recently as well, the MMOs i know then just declared what rewards are guaranteed when purchasing such packs (same value as for the usual premium content), added random extra prizes and the problem was solved. You were getting a guaranteed service for the price, not worthless items or promises without a given lots/prize ratio. Btw. i occasionally pay some money in such games, not to buy an item, but to extend a service contract ("virtual goods"), therefore keep their business running and can play the otherwise free2play game in the next few years. If i don´t play it, i don´t pay for it.I approach such questions usually as: if it was no problem, i can not be affected by it being regulated. In other cases it probably is a problem to me or someone else and needs regulation.

author: jmelson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 10, 2019, 09:19:14 pm
content: Quote from: Smokey on May 10, 2019, 10:38:22 amHMMM, Amazing! So, investing in real estate or the stock market is gambling, too, and clearly ought to be outlawed!Jon

author: Cyberdragon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 11, 2019, 02:10:25 am
content: Quote from: jmelson on May 10, 2019, 09:19:14 pmOh dear, we'll definately have to get rid of crypto too!

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 11, 2019, 02:24:56 am
content: Sigh...As I said before:Quote from: Brumby on May 10, 2019, 12:50:10 pm

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 11, 2019, 09:44:11 am
content: Quote from: free_electron on May 10, 2019, 04:04:38 pmWell, you would think that.First there are people trying to make a living on twitch and other steaming platforms, where this is practically necessary to run competitively.Then there is the group belonging. I played Word of Tanks a few years ago. A group of 8 people are required to play a certain strategic game type. They literally kicked people out of the group, because they didnt had the certain type of "required" tank, which gave a certain edge in the game. The tank was 50 EUR, the price of a full game.Imagine, that they place it in a lootbox, 2 EUR each, 2% chance of getting the tank.Putting math aside, after 100 trials, you have 87% chance of getting the tank.So if you dont have it, sorry. Go and play something else, while we the big boys go and play the interesting part of the game.

author: GlennSprigg
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 11, 2019, 10:10:30 am
content: Quote from: Smokey on May 10, 2019, 12:41:43 pmI don't know about the U.S.A., but here in Australia (in W.A. at least?), Primary School & Kindy is like beingrun by the NAZI's now !! Teachers/officials can/do go through kids lunch-boxes, and ban them from havinganything they feel is unhealthy... And some have actually BANNED kids from having HAM in a sandwich orwhatever, as it may cause offense to a 'certain' (ahemm..) religious group.... %$&# off !!

author: SparkyFX
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 11, 2019, 08:26:36 pm
content: Quote from: NANDBlog on May 11, 2019, 09:44:11 amWell, that is what users do with other users... don´t play with them. There is of course this social component to it and people can act like 12 year olds.QuoteIt was banned in the US at some point - which gave an uprise to a completely unregulated black market, no taxes on sales, no limits on consumption, no control (food safety, health insurance cost). Then the ban was lifted, but with somewhat regulation.But guess what, it´s still illegal/punished to drive drunk, you get problems trying to work drunk. Which means it is not as "free" as free can be, which would make it practically illegal by the definition of some users here in this thread, butonly if you come in conflict with the regulation. Alcohol is a good example in which personal freedom, social acceptance, avoidance of damage, implications for the society and lawmaking comes together.I don´t think we need to talk about nanny-ing adult people to see that the problems are wider than just the directly affected person and this is not a political question either, as there is money funneled out of an economy - whichever form it has - without exchange of any value and it crosses the line between purchase of goods and paying for a service. If a problem gets big enough, it can ruin any economy. The addiction component of it is what causes loss to societies, if everyone would stop when the personal budget is gone it would not be that big of a problem.QuoteSome kids are little idiots and just by guessing this story has probably something more to it than just a potential offense. Bureaucrats usual move too slow for potential dangers. Unfortunately no one made it so far to ban idiots, so it must have been the ham. But thats not the topic here.Well... paying for the consequences that some people cause is unavoidable for anyone in a society, which implies damages need at some point be limited, as the budget is equally limited.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 12, 2019, 08:07:32 pm
content: Quote from: Smokey on May 10, 2019, 01:39:14 pmNot everyone is a lawyer, which is why we have consumer law. Most jurisdictions restrict what constitutes a legally binding contract and guarantees the purchaser certain statutory rights, which cannot be simply signed away. There are also regulations which forbid misleading advertising. It would be unacceptable for a garage to advertise a car as capable for 400mph, even if the small print in the brochure says it'll only go that fast off a cliff. If a someone were to buy the car and discover it can't go 400mph, the garage would be legally obliged either to fix it so it does or give them a full refund.At the moment game developers have to state in game purchases are required to access extra goodies, but there is clearly a need for more rules.

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 13, 2019, 08:15:57 pm
content: You can say it's up to the parents. But it IS parents (legislators with kids) who are fighting for these changes.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2020, 01:32:34 am
content: Q.) What are "loot boxes"?A.) Free money!God, people are so gullible..

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2020, 02:54:39 am
content: The Government is totally missing a trick here. They should insist on virtual income tax, virtual sales tax, and the rest of it, to be paid by all participants in the "virtual economy" of the game, just like in the real world! Very educational for the youngsters: you cannot escape death, or taxes!

author: John B
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2020, 03:05:13 am
content: While I can respect the libertarian and personal responsibility argument, I believe that some of these AAA game developers deliberately obscured the fact that in game gambling and "virtual" currency actually resulted in real money being billed to cards. So these companies have done themselves no favours on the ethics front, only on the profit front.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2020, 03:28:46 am
content: Quote from: NANDBlog on May 11, 2019, 09:44:11 amFor some reason I imagined something kind of epic, like dream team, epic strategy, shock and awe vigour that would impress the entire community, being held back by a digital purchase of 60 euro. Then some guy with his life setup for living on zero budget for the next 20 years has to do something crazy for some pocket before next week so the whole thing does not fall apart. Like the guild leader from that MMO based show called 'the guild'.I think its more epic without the lootbox option since it gets rid of the gamblers and you will get a go getter instead at 60 euro. I can imagine next skype meeting some 18 year old living in the slums is heard yelling at eastern european gangsters that lent him money to get off his property and that he will have it next week...I noticed alot of videogame stuff sounds extremely pathetic unless someone understands how being in a guild or clan that is serious feels. Kind of have to be there..

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2020, 04:09:03 am
content: Drawing a line somewhere, even when you somehow get agreement on where the line should be drawn. Because the problem isn't a line. None of these addictive problems affect everyone the same way. And the folks with a real problem don't stop because of some silly line wherever it is.I would suggest a two part bandage on the problem. Make the vendors of these gambling/addictive devices only sell any individual a fraction of their income. And make the penalties for violation fall upon the vendor, not the user. This second part makes it a more responsible party avoiding the penalties (remember the problem is the extreme addicts who over use the product. They are the last ones to worry about penalties).The first part has real problems. Agreement on an appropriate number, but more importantly, how to deal with someone with multiple addictive outlets. It is hard, but conceivable to get a percentage of income that is relatively harmless. And perhaps a reasonable social contract to exchange financial information for the right to access of your narcotic (oops I mean game) of choice. But really, really difficult to control the multi-stream problem (and to allocate penalties for violation).But at least this seems on a path to a solution which could control the excesses, while allowing the majority of responsible actors access to a variety of entertainments.

author: julianhigginson
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2020, 04:30:41 am
content: Smokey, you're missing a lot of points here.. I'm not sure where to even begin.But I'll start by saying I'm pretty sure you are not, and have never been, a parent. And if you are, well, yikes...Also. Buying loot boxes in a game is nothing like physical packets of baseball cards. As much as buying them can involve chance in what you get, that's about where the similarity ends.... For a start, kids will trade the cards. if there's something they want, they will normally get it through their friends if they don't get it directly... The other thing is that in the context of a game, the presentation of the rewards is done with very polished cues involving animation and music, designed *exactly* to enhance expectation and tension and resolve it with the chance rewards in exactly the right way to manipulate human minds, and cause addiction to the process of receiving the rewards. Baseball cards can't and don't do that, even with their pretty shiny foil wrappers. Now this doesn't mean nobody ever went crazy on baseball cards and sold their house to buy them (I'm sure someone must have, it's a big crazy world afterall) But the mental pressure that games with loot boxes put on people is far worse than the mental pressure packs of baseball cards exert.I think we should definitely be talking about video games that kids play becoming more and more like poker machines - an industry that uses hard psychological data on the human perceptions of risks and rewards and pleasure to hook in and literally milk money out of adults, with no concern at all for any mental damage they may cause along the way.And yeah, while we are at that we should also be talking about poker machines.... even though they are LOCKED AWAY FROM KIDS in licensed venues (damn big brother govimint inserting themselves into my kids recreational activities!) because even when used by adults they've evolved into something over the last 25 years or so that they never historically were (or at least a much more concentrated form of it) and they are causing far more damage as a result.And maybe we should even be talking about advertising and marketing.... another industry that abuses research on regular human weaknesses and susceptibilities in order to try and exploit people.This is how regulations work. We, as citizens see that something that keeps happening is not something we want to keep happening. so we get laws to stop that happening... If we can't do that, I guess there's direct action. But if, god forbid, someone went and organised a big loud proper boycott and protests over a game dev company and any company that supports them, over their use of loot boxes.... well, I get the feeling you'd scream about that too.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2020, 11:36:54 am
content: Quote from: wraper on May 10, 2019, 12:31:13 pmInstead of cat, sack contained chlorine trifluoride. Would not buy again.https://xkcd.com/325/

author: jh15
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2020, 01:57:45 am
content: on the phone app for my tesla s I have a loot box.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2020, 04:22:09 am
content: someone in the factory left a drill in the trunk?

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2020, 05:10:46 am
content: I don't feel particularly strongly one way or another. I hate the "freemium" model, but should it be illegal? That's less clear.I don't gamble, that's a personal choice. I view gambling as a tax on people who don't understand math. I don't necessarily think gambling should be illegal though, as the old saying goes "a fool and his money are soon parted" and if you block somebody from one vice they'll find something else to spend their money on.Rather than a law this strikes me as something where a public education campaign could be beneficial. If people are aware of the risks going in they may be less likely to get into it in the first place or to let their kids play it.

author: Smokey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2020, 07:49:01 am
content: Quote from: julianhigginson on June 11, 2020, 04:30:41 amCorrect. I'm just some dude on the internet with an opinion.Quote from: julianhigginson on June 11, 2020, 04:30:41 amAgain, Correct. I actually have a feeling kids and loot boxes have a lot more in common than people think. Your genetics and the chemistry in your brain make it essentially biologically compelling to roll the kids dice and you have zero guarantees how your kids roll will turn out. You may be hoping for an "epic", but that's far from certain and there are no re-rolls. Maybe if more people had a clearer understanding of the small print that comes along with kids they would make different decisions up front about if that's their best investment.https://www.usda.gov/media/blog/2017/01/13/cost-raising-childAnd I feel like you are making some of my points with the comparisons to casino gambling and pervasive advertising and other "adult" influences. You either learn how to navigate the difficult parts of the world early or you learn it later, and the later you learn these things the more serious and costly the lessons become. When there is too much of an artificial shelter from all perceived dangers early on (parental or legislative), then you get people who think "adulting" is something that you start learning how to do after you turn 25.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2020, 05:01:24 pm
content: Lawmakers do not have a problem with gambling as long as they get a cut. Witness the shenanigans with various state lotteries in the US.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2020, 07:22:16 pm
content: Quote from: Smokey on June 15, 2020, 07:49:01 amYou try to raise kids to be as smart as us, here, on this forum! then they'll be OK.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2020, 07:57:40 pm
content: Somebody, usually an adult, owns the credit card used to pay for this nonsense. One call to the 800 number on the back of the card can have it cancelled. A replacement can usually be shipped 'overnight'.I find the practice reprehensible - Brumby got it right - and if people think legislation is the answer, go for it.We see something similar with enabled test equipment options that disappear after some trial time period. Then you can use your credit card to get them back (unless the device can be 'unlocked'). This is usually happening to an adult that has a job and owns the credit card.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2020, 08:53:08 pm
content: Quote from: David Hess on June 15, 2020, 05:01:24 pmThey tend to do when children are involved. I really have trouble imagining what kind of lowlife scum you have to be to consciously design gambling into a product for children and young adults. "Your own responsibility" also becomes hazy when addiction is involved.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2020, 09:02:16 pm
content: Quote from: Smokey on June 15, 2020, 07:49:01 amFor some intents and purposes "adulting" does start at 25 as the brain develops up to that age. We see what look like functioning adults but not all parts are. It's just not as visible. Impulse control is one of the things to develop last and guess what gambling targets? It's not as if we don't protect children from drugs or other activities they're likely to hurt themselves with.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2020, 04:24:02 am
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on June 15, 2020, 09:02:16 pmFor some "adulting" never starts. My mother in law is in her 60s and is as impulsive as any teenager. She pisses away money like it grows on trees, at one point she inherited more than I've earned throughout my entire career and within a couple of years she was out of money again. On the other hand some young people are surprisingly responsible.Experience has taught me that you can't save everyone from themselves and you can't legislate morality or common sense.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2020, 03:04:50 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on June 16, 2020, 04:24:02 amSure. That doesn't detract from the fact that children and developing young adults are ill equipped to deal with gambling mechanisms. Adults get themselves in trouble with gambling regularly and they stand a much better chance. It's not a matter of "can't teach some", it's keeping them from a carefully crafted trap they aren't supposed to deal well with. It's like spiking the orange juice at an AA meeting and making a business model out of it, except even less fair.

author: julianhigginson
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2020, 12:02:55 am
content: At the end of the day, loot boxes in games aren't even that much of a biggie, compared to the overall drive to push addictive behaviour generating technology into pretty much everything it can be... there's a whole range of things being turned addictive for the sake of a bit of extra human engagement, and it's really not a good thing for human health.At least the addition what is basically slot machines that chew up real money inside regular video games that kids play is an obvious "WTF" moment for some.Here's something far worse - it's a side-note in this article, but options trading is now "gamified" and being pushed to unsophisticated traders.https://www.forbes.com/sites/sergeiklebnikov/2020/06/17/20-year-old-robinhood-customer-dies-by-suicide-after-seeing-a-730000-negative-balance/#61d9eac81638Quote

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2020, 12:40:41 am
content: I don't *like* those stupid games, or social media for that matter, both are engineered to be addictive, the latter is arguably much more damaging to society. I'm just skeptical whenever it comes to creating yet more laws, there are so many laws already that nobody could ever be expected to know all of them.

author: flowib
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2020, 02:53:53 am
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on June 15, 2020, 08:53:08 pmThey tend to do when children are involved. I really have trouble imagining what kind of lowlife scum you have to be to consciously design gambling into a product for children and young adults. "Your own responsibility" also becomes hazy when addiction is involved.From my own experience, being prone to addiction and having poor impulse controls i must have sunk most of the money i had (and that of my parents at occasions)in childhood into loot boxes. Ive played World of warcraft (and TBH blizzard is a saint compared to some others) there are some real unscrupulous companies out there that will happily bleed you dry in an attempt to get some item so you can atleast remain viable in competitive gaming.Ive read other comments about parental responsibility i take offense to that. My entire family is on the spectrum parents and siblings included and i think my mother was glad i was too preoccupied with online gaming to cause her much trouble, she had a rough time with all three of us and there was a period when all i did was play world of warcraft, it had gotten so bad all i did was play WOW go to some special school only to be tossed out of class every day because i couldn't or wouldn't behave. In the end my parents decided to limit my available play time in WOW. But not before a screaming freak out on my part.And my experience is not a one off, i know at least a dozen people from my time in special education that had similar experiences, as a matter of fact the majority of those who attended that school had problems regulating their online gaming play time. And most went through one or more depressive episodes later in life.Im no neurologist, however i firmly believe that all this addictive gaming in life did cause physical changes in my neural pathways similar to those encountered in alcoholics or substance abusers. At least this is what i have been told by a number of psychologists who i have debated and or consulted on the topic. In short what i've gathered from them and from reading up on the neural pathways involved : An addiction is an addiction and once you have been addicted to something its very easy to roll into another addiction. Gaming could very well be the new gateway drug.Those online gaming companies are in my eyes at least just as guilty and cause just as much mischief as some of the pharmaceutical companies that pushed opioids on the American public causing the rural opioid epidemic in the States. To some that are genetically or are in certain socio-economic situations it can be devastating and cause long term damage that can't be fixed.I'm no fan of government overreach in general, however article 22 of our constitution delegates the improvement of public health to the government, and if loot boxes are in anyway dangerous to mental health of young people they should ban them outright.But the discussion should be broader , i am fundamentally convinced that most social media is at least as toxic to the dopamine levels of their users, and in general has caused some nasty societal changes that we have yet to experience the full ramifications of. Facebook and the rest of those W****ERS are no hair better then the guy slinging dope.I'm afraid that without a ban by the EU and the US congress the Dutch ban becomes hard if not impossible to enforce and therefore i wholeheartedly support anyone that is willing to take on these companies as they pray on some of the weakest to create shareholder value the US should take a sledgehammer to microtransactions in general.

author: asmi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2020, 06:33:13 pm
content: Quote from: julianhigginson on June 22, 2020, 12:02:55 amThen we need to make EE illegal then as I'm totally addicted to it and over years spent absurd amount of money specifically so that I can spend even more money on it in the future (like better eCAD tools that allows me to design higher performance stuff which is obviously more expensive to make).Quote from: julianhigginson on June 22, 2020, 12:02:55 amLiving is not good for human health as it invariably leads to death. Let's ban that too?State has no business in personal affairs. I will die protecting my freedom to do stupid shit.

author: rrinker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2020, 08:19:42 pm
content: Multiple thoughts"Stupid and irresponsible" to say that parents should be responsible for their children? What planet are you from?Ban alcohol? We tried that in the US once. It was an unmitigated disaster.Sugary drinks and food? They have applied an extra tax to sugary drinks in Philadelphia. The only people paying the tax are the poor it was supposed to help, because they still want soda and do not have an easy way to go outside the city limits to avoid the tax, and people who are wealthy enough to not give a darn. People in the middle just drive short distances to escape the city limits and buy their soda there.The whole idea of loot boxes and in-game purchases I think is just stupid - but a law against it? If it's so bad, stop buying, stop playing, the game developers will have to change their ways. None of this was needed when you ran your own servers for games, now it's justified as supporting the on-going operation of banks of hosted servers to support the players. Multi-player games were more fun when you could actually mod them on your own server.To clarify - in game purchases that are more or less REQUIRED to advance, not the shortcut stuff. There are plenty of games where you can (eventually) reach the highest tier and not spend any real money - it just takes a LOT of play time, slogging through mid tier levels over and over to accumulate enough of the in-game currency to 'buy' advanced gear. If they want to put a shortcut in there for those that WANT to, go right ahead. But don't require it. The random nature of real money loot boxes though, is just s stupid idea - as much lazy developers as it is greed from the game publisher. But there is no need for a law, not at all.

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2020, 08:55:05 pm
content: Was the congressional hearings of 1993-1994 on violance in video games and subsequent creation of the content rating system stupid? Was it not needed?

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2020, 09:55:35 pm
content: Quote from: Bud on June 23, 2020, 08:55:05 pmI would call it stupid and not needed. Kids could and can get hold of any game they want, and on top of that there is no evidence to show that playing violent games leads to violence in real life. I certainly played a lot of Doom, Duke Nukem, Quake and other extremely violent games when I was a kid and I'm not a violent person. There's a clear line between pretend and real life.

author: HobGoblyn
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 25, 2020, 05:56:57 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on June 23, 2020, 09:55:35 pmI 99.9% agreeI happily let my kids play 18 rated games because like you, they were bought up to know right and wrong, reality and fantasy.The trouble comes for all those kids whose parents don't give a dam about them and sadly there are a large number. (but as you say, they will get hold of the games regardless)If a kid is going to be violent, it doesn't matter whether they see violent games or not.Where I have seen problems, is with kids with zero parental upbringing who can't differentiate between something they see on TV and reality. I used to help run a youth club. I stopped (just in time) a 14 year old smacking another kid over the head with a chair as he had seen it on wrestling the night before.The thing is, those kids will sadly always exist. Did he really believe it wouldn't harm the other kid or did he realise it would and still want to do it, who knows.I know hundreds of people who have played violent games, none of them are violent, usually the sort of person wanting censorship has heard something from the fat bloke down the pub, has never seen or heard the things they want banned. I think it should be up to parents what their kids can watch, ratings should be a guideline.Me, in reality I'm a kind, very honest member of society, if I ever find a wallet etc, I would get it back to the owner or hand it on to the police without hesitation. But when I play MMOs, I can be a right evil git, love playing a thief etc.As for loot boxes, I understand why companies like them, I understand why others want them banned. It could be argued that they are introducing kids to gambling. And of course the sort of person the gaming company wants, is the 2 - 5% (made up figures) who are so addicted, they spend £100s each month. From a personal point of view, as soon as loot boxes are introduced, the games go downhill fast. It is sort of like the people running it have given up on spending money on "good" new content, instead spending all their time developing silly things to get the addicts to think they want, hence sell tons of loot boxes.

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2020, 06:42:36 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on June 23, 2020, 09:55:35 pmThen you call stupid video game producers themselves, since Sega already had their own content rating system prior to the hearing, it was just not good enough but the need was clearly there.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2020, 08:01:02 pm
content: Quote from: Bud on June 25, 2020, 06:42:36 pmSo what? Some video game producers are stupid. I don't have any issue with them creating their own content rating system if they want to do so. It's not gonna stop kids from getting their hands on the stuff if they want it but may provide some guidance to parents. When I was a kid I could get any game I wanted from one of my friends and it's much easier today, I don't think there was a content rating system yet but it didn't matter.

author: edy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2020, 10:07:58 pm
content: I'm not sure the government has to be involved in this. Underage users should be supervised or have parental controls and spending limits. Adults can already piss away their money on many things in life, legally. So why try to control yet another thing?My kids all have devices and we monitor them. Every device is password protected and no automatic billing or purchases can ever happen. If they are permitted to "buy" credits at all, it is provided from allowance or some understanding of limits and responsibilities as they won't get more soon. This teaches real life management of money and choices they will need to make in the future.If someone wants to destroy their life they can in so many other ways and government oversight can't really stop it. Adults spend on many addictions to the point that it is destructive to themselves and relationships. These games should be used as a lesson for parental involvement and not expect government to solve every problem that exists.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 27, 2020, 12:14:33 am
content: I honestly don't know why laws like that need to exist. How far do we go to "protect" the dumb or vulnerable?Kids don't have credit cards so their parents must be enabling their purchases. If they want to pour their money into something useless, that's on them. It's no different to dumping money into poker machines, alcohol, cigarettes or any other useless crap people don't need.

author: HobGoblyn
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 02, 2020, 07:35:49 am
content: Just seen this on bbc newshttps://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-53253195

author: MrMobodies
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2020, 08:20:37 am
content: Buying virtual items and it reminds of this:https://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/apple/9928381/Boy-runs-up-1000-bill-buying-virtual-doughnuts-on-iPad.htmlQuotehttps://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/howaboutthat/9901637/Five-year-old-runs-up-1700-iPad-bill-in-ten-minutes.htmlExcept it appears that they didn't know they were gambling.I would want to own it outright without paying for virtual things.For example I'd think I'd rather do buy the whole gambling machine, disable the coins slot and that's the gambling element gone with money.When I play games I woudn't want to link it to my wallet thank you very much.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2020, 12:19:11 pm
content: Quote from: MrMobodies on July 02, 2020, 08:20:37 amPeople are trusting... they expect "serious" companies like Apple to not allow their five year old to empty Grandma's pension account.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2020, 01:34:22 pm
content: Why not have people who are obsessed with games be able to earn virtual goods by doing volunteer work in their communities for free?But I think it makes sense to ban the use of real money, because people are stupid, and these games are often played by kids.

author: MrMobodies
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2020, 10:22:51 pm
content: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/newsbeat-48701962QuoteSo are many other free/ouright purchased games for gamers and non/occasional gamers.QuoteEthics? Where the throwaway toys can be derived to the money that is thrown away.So for the throw away toys, you have to pay for them and when the toys are thrown away the money is also thrown away but that never belong to you in the first place but to them. I am I right to think it kinds of borders over subscription based services where you have some rights to certain thingds over a given time?I question for those who are gambling: Are you playing it or is it playing you?

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2020, 03:45:44 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on June 22, 2020, 12:40:41 amI'm all for simplifying the law but I don't think the protection of a very vulnerable group against carefully constructed exploitation is the place to start.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2020, 05:49:05 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on July 04, 2020, 03:45:44 pmWhere is the place to start? For any proposed law out there I can assure you there is a group of people who feel passionately that questioning their proposed law is not the place to start.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2020, 05:58:29 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on July 06, 2020, 05:49:05 pmNot true. Some are remnants of an era gone by, others are ill devised patches of already badly constructed laws. There are a lot of silly laws.