What's special about expensive "audiophile" amp/DAC? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Porama6400
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 04, 2020, 06:59:35 pm
content: Speaking about electronically, I am just curious (and skeptical) about what's so special and why expensive one "sounds better"I get it why it would be few hundred buck or so for long lasting as they would need non CapXon garbage stuff but for a grand or higher, that seems absurd to me.isn't flat response Amp or DAC something we already do all the time?

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 04, 2020, 07:36:07 pm
content: In practice there is nothing really special, it sounds better because the placebo effect is real. Some of them also look quite nice, subjectively. It is futile to go looking for logic in the audiophile world.

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 04, 2020, 08:15:47 pm
content: Although attention to detail and competent design will get you a long way. It's not so much about the Silicon used, it's more about getting the best out of it. Noise, ground layout, PSU rails etc.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 04, 2020, 08:20:00 pm
content: Nice clickbait for the audiophool busters!It must be maybe the 1 millionth thread on the topic or something.Quote from: Porama6400 on March 04, 2020, 06:59:35 pmBeing skeptical is always a good thing.Quote from: Porama6400 on March 04, 2020, 06:59:35 pmDefine "flat response" first maybe?Quote from: Porama6400 on March 04, 2020, 06:59:35 pmNot really. It's more like: we design crap all the time, and only very occasionally do better for precision stuff. Now is this crap "good enough"? This is where this kind of topic will never end.Quote from: Porama6400 on March 04, 2020, 06:59:35 pmWe all know some products are ridiculously expensive, and yes, sometimes for no good reason, but judging the price of a product by what it contains doesn't make much sense either, unless we're talking about "commodity" stuff - including potatoes.So price is not the issue IMHO here. The only valid issue is when a vendor sells stuff with claims that are just not *met*, which happens quite a bit in many areas, not just audio (but audio does indeed have a lot of this.) Now if some vendor sells a very expensive DAC, for instance, which a claimed THD+N a magnitude or more lower than what is usual in GOOD audio DACs, and this figure is actually met, I don't see a problem. If you think you need it, buy it, if you don't, fine, just buy something else, and let the professional debunkers, suddenly becoming hearing experts, spend hours explaining why such low THD figures don't make sense.To sum it up: price is not a valid point (only very few goods these days have an "intrinsic" value strictly speaking anyway), false claims on objective figures are bad and usually punishable by law, and true claims on apparently ridiculously "good" characteristics (such as ultra low THD+N), I'll let you make your own opinion, and spend hours debating what is good enough and what isn't - don't worry, you'll find thousands of people to discuss that with you.

author: Zbig
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 04, 2020, 09:06:51 pm
content: Your gut feeling is not failing you: it's all about delusion and raising your self-esteem by misguided feeling of belonging to some imaginary group of "elite" golden-ears. Also, including mandatory "Signature" in your bullshit product name and mentioning "quantum alignment" at least once in your marketing blurb. Compared to what we are now capable of achieving using our current technology, reproducing an electric signal of up to 20 kHz and not messing it up in the process is nothing really. Putting this in the perspective and comparing to the real challenges of modern tech, it's practically DC. We're already there since quite some time.If you're asking not just theoretically and are actually in the market of a decent computer audio interface, without breaking the bank and having to endure all the drivel, you can't go wrong with established go-to manufacturers of mid-range gear aimed at musicians such as Focusrite's Scarlett line.

author: bsdphk
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 04, 2020, 09:31:05 pm
content: Actually, it's all and only about showing how rich you are: The price is the point, not the sound.I've met people who are on the selling side of that industry, and they say it is all about their customers being able to show of with expensive and unique bling, that nobody else has, same ball-game as gold-plated toilets.There are literally people who pay them extra to not sell to anybody else, so that they can say they have "the only one ever made" etc.All the audiohomoepathic buzzwordery is just to dress up the emperor so he doesn't sound naked when he brags.

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 04, 2020, 09:59:07 pm
content: .... and so another re-hashed Audiophool discussion gathers pace.

author: grifftech
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 04, 2020, 10:04:30 pm
content: lower power efficiency

author: Zbig
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 04, 2020, 10:10:00 pm
content: Quote from: Gyro on March 04, 2020, 09:59:07 pmYou're right... quick, everyone, let's bring Corona Virus into this!... somehow...

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 04, 2020, 10:12:59 pm
content: Look, an expensive DAC could give you- more inputs- gold plated connectors, which is better for corrosion (which definitely happens with hifi gear in decades)- displays and better controls- relays on the outputs to avoid pops during startup- a nice headphone amplifier built in- high sample rate USB input, which is still surprisingly difficult to do- Low noise power supply- isolated interfaces to avoid ground loops and hum- proper thermal management for the components- upsampling- nice reconstruction filters, with components better matched- aesthetically pleasing lookMost of which is absent from the low end units. It not necessarily results better sound, the same way a supercar doesnt get you to your destination faster in rush hour. But all these are added value and they cost money. If you want to look for a "Not Another Nonsense Design"* look at the O2 ODAC for example. That is made by an engineer. Or the Cambridge audio Dacmagic.Whats really the point of " better sound " anyway, when the record studio run the music though a hundred NE5532?And of course there will be snake oil salesman out there.*tm by me.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 05, 2020, 01:51:39 pm
content: Quote from: blueskull on March 05, 2020, 06:20:19 amAudio engineers are always conservative with recording volume levels, since they rather lose a few dB of dynamic range than run the risk of clipping at a critical time. They're supposed to correct the volume during editing, but many don't bother and leave it up to the listener to adjust the volume on their end. (Is it correct that with lossy codecs like MP3, reducing the signal input a small amount does not necessarily reduce the dynamic range?)

author: schmitt trigger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 05, 2020, 02:07:20 pm
content: As Dave would say,the reason these audiophile components are so expensive, is because they are assembled by nude Swiss virgins in a cottage deep in a secluded forest, where birds chirping under a deep azure sky and a crystal-clear brook provide the unique harmonic content to align the electronic sources for the purest sound reproduction.Or something to the effect......

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 05, 2020, 04:21:40 pm
content: Quote from: NiHaoMike on March 05, 2020, 01:51:39 pmSay what now?!? No, theexact oppositehas been happening for years now: theloudness war. Tons of recordings are being released with absurdly high levels, often clipped. (And previously-good recordings are being re-released in such a fashion!)Digital audio, even "just" 16-bit/44.1KHz, already has plenty of headroom to allow for massive amplification without adding perceptible noise. (The dynamic range of CD audio already far, far, far exceeds what a human can perceive safely. The dynamic range is such that the smallest sound on CD, amplified to audible levels, would have a system whose peak volume would cause physical harm.) "Leaving it up to the listener to adjust the volume" is precisely what theyshouldbe doing, but aren't. "Turn Me Up" isliterallythe name of a campaign to get mastering engineers to stop succumbing to the loudness war:https://www.turnmeup.org

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 05, 2020, 04:53:55 pm
content: Quote from: blueskull on March 05, 2020, 04:47:19 pmHmm, no.http://www.cochlea.eu/en/sound/psychoacousticsRead the part about masking.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 05, 2020, 05:29:24 pm
content: Quote from: blueskull on March 05, 2020, 04:47:19 pmExcept that you're, well, all wrong. Because of how sampling and dithering works, an LSB is not the smallest signal that can be represented. Consequently, the effective dynamic range of CD audio is not 96dB, but 120dB:https://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.htmlQuote

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 05, 2020, 06:36:35 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on March 04, 2020, 07:36:07 pmAgreed. Recently I recapped an amplifier from a relative. A lot of components (including semiconductors) run really hot (100 degrees C!) and the circuit itself is what you learn in the second year of any EE education. Ofcourse a whole bunch of electrolytics right next to hot components.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 05, 2020, 06:51:19 pm
content: Quote from: blueskull on March 05, 2020, 05:53:57 pmNope. As long as the signal is correctly bandwidth-limited before sampling, then the sampled signal reproduces the original bandwidth-limited signal perfectly, all the way up to fs/2. As long as it's correctly bandwidth-limited, the complexity of the signal does not matter.As usual, refer to:https://wiki.xiph.org/Videos/Digital_Show_and_TellQuote from: blueskull on March 05, 2020, 05:53:57 pmYeah, by people who do not, and don't want to, understand the principles of sampling. Citing hi-fi forums as a source for debunking an explanation of scientific fact is like citing a creationism forum as a source debunking evolution...Quote from: blueskull on March 05, 2020, 05:53:57 pmIrrelevant: wider spectrum = wider frequency range. And while it's possible that some people have hearing with an extraordinary frequency range, we aren't discussing sampling rate here. We are discussing dynamic range, which is a consequence of bit depth, not sampling rate.(As for your laser diode: laser diodes and LEDs produce some off-frequency light, too. Some light from IR diodes can be a tiny amount of shortwave IR or even some longwave visible red. It'shighlyunlikely you can detect actual 976nm light, it's just too far.)

author: edy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 05, 2020, 07:36:07 pm
content: Quote from: schmitt trigger on March 05, 2020, 02:07:20 pmQuote from: Zbig on March 04, 2020, 10:10:00 pmOk how about this for a try... The group of "nude virgins" doesn't have to necessary be FEMALEWhat if they are bearded men? And when they are gathered together in such close proximity it could be a breeding ground for coronavirus:But seriously, another audiophoolery thread....

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2020, 12:46:03 am
content: Quote from: tooki on March 05, 2020, 04:21:40 pmSome content hosts like Youtube are fighting it by reducing the volume of content recorded too loud. I'm not exactly sure but they might even end up making it quieter than it would be otherwise in order to really penalize the overuse of dynamic range compression.

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2020, 06:42:18 am
content: Quote from: Zbig on March 04, 2020, 09:06:51 pmI have a soundcard "for musicians" which fails at star grounding and picks up noise from crappy computers like crazyOn the upside, it's an older, discontinued model.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2020, 06:44:18 pm
content: Quote from: NiHaoMike on March 06, 2020, 12:46:03 amApparently, Apple Music (the streaming service, not the song purchasing on iTunes) applies mandatory volume normalization (“Sound Check”), and some in the industry hope that this will help, since it removes any advantage of recording “hot”.Then again, for many years now Apple has had the “mastered for iTunes” program/label, whereby the studio uploads a special master optimized for playback via 256Kbps AAC. So it’s entirely possible that studios will continue to use a different master for CD as for iTunes. (I assume that iTunes and Apple Music use the same master uploads.)

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2020, 07:29:03 pm
content: Quote from: NiHaoMike on March 06, 2020, 12:46:03 amI like dynamic range compression in videos because it makes the voices easier to understand and the sound effects less pronounced.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2020, 07:57:50 pm
content: Well, IMHO, the issue of dynamic range is completely opposite in music compared to videos and music: if music has far too little dynamic range, movies and videos suffer from too much. Action movies have just plain excessively loud sound effects like explosions, and YouTube videos in particular often have terrible sound levels, with music intros and whatnot being wildly too loud compared to speech.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2020, 03:46:04 pm
content: Looks like the thread pretty much went as I was expecting.Quote from: tooki on March 06, 2020, 07:57:50 pmSound mixing and mastering in videos/films is just a completely different thing than with music obviously, and is a skill that has to be learned. The mastering for films projected in theaters should be pretty different from the one made for home viewing (completely different environment, equipment, sound level...) DVDs/Bluerays are usually remastered for this use with varying success.But Youtube videos? As I just said, this is a skill to be learned, you just don't improvise it and get good results. So of course, most Youtubers haven't learned any of this, and just produce crap. Just like you would play crap on a guitar if you can't play - doesn't matter if the guitar has become cheap to buy and looks easy to use. And given the very varied equipment on which people watch Youtube videos, it's especially tough to get good results for everyone, so it's never going to work if you don't know what you're doing.

author: Porama6400
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 08, 2020, 05:16:33 am
content: well, ouch.Didn't expect this thread to go this way.I'm just curious whether if there's a good explanation technical wise.(As based on myvery limitedexperience, I can't think of anything that will make BOM cost that much)Your guys explanation make sense though, maybe I shouldn't try to find reason about audio stuff

author: Calvin
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 08, 2020, 01:05:30 pm
content: Hi,up to a certain price range You can expect better quality parts and generally more effort put into the device.Does this translate to better sound? Not necessarily so ..... sometimes yes, sometimes not.From a certain pecuniar level on the technical quality won´t rise any more ... in fact it is quite often the opposite.The ´value´ is typically to find in the ´chique´ and image.Optical appearance, design, haptic and brand name become more important than actual technical or sound quality.It should be kept in mind that audio is mostly a luxury and lifestyle market, where price and rationale are typically excluding each other.Also to be kept in mind is that in these markets the ´true users´ i.e those who are real listeners are probabely a small minority while the majority are rather proud owners.The problem beeing that hearing is a individual sense. Everyone has his /her own individual ´listening experience´ and taste which differs from other´s experiences and tastes.This is due to the fact that listening is almost exclusivly a brain activity, in gross contrast to the pure physical working of a microfone.As such it shows marvellous capabilities on one hand, but can also be easily tricked/fooledand is influenced by numerous non-physical, non-acoustic factors.The trick may be rather obvious like a shiny champagne coloured casing, or so subtle that it runs below the consciousness treshold.A listening sensation may be real even though there´s no physical difference.May sound strange but that´s the way humans function .. we are no logic controlled Volcanians.Audiophool´s failure is probabely only that they tend to generalize their listening experience, even if it are outrageous claims.regardsCalvin

author: daqq
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 08, 2020, 02:06:37 pm
content: QuoteTo be fair, some seem to use very expensive components, see:http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/totaldac3/1.htmlWhether these components are actually contributing anything useful to the sound, in particular, when the core R2R DAC made up of Vishay 0.01% resistors seems to be driven by a mundane 74HC574 is another question.

author: rdl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 08, 2020, 02:34:39 pm
content: Calvin has a point in that appearance and style are important to many people. You could build a perfectly adequate house very cheaply using little more than concrete block, plywood, 2x4s and foam, but most people would rather pay more for something that looked a bit nicer.

author: ve7xen
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 09, 2020, 07:38:28 pm
content: QuoteThe 'explanation' is that 'good enough' is never good enough for people seeking perfection. No, you won't be able to hear the difference, but you can chase that last incremental 'improvement' forever. Some audiofool equipment goes far beyond this, but there is certainly a significant difference in cost and engineering effort between a low-end consumer product and a high-end one that is designed on engineering principles to be as good as possible (and not just gold-plated power cable rubbish). That doesn't mean you'll necessarily be able to hear the difference, but that doesn't mean there's nothing different or that one isn't objectively better.I think an element of this is that it's virtually impossible to find normal consumer products with good quality audio implementations. It seems to be a low priority, and even if the BOM and engineering cost of doing a decent job is pretty low, they don't bother because consumers don't care. So if you want a decent implementation, it seems you almost have to go towards dedicated 'audiophile' products. There are certainly segments of this market that don't go too hard into the woo or crazy prices and try to just do things properly.

author: GlennSprigg
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2020, 01:10:56 pm
content: It's not just the sound system, but the ROOM DESIGN !!!Anyway, us oldies will always rave about Heated Valves having the warmth/timbre.

author: jeffheath
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2020, 03:46:31 pm
content: For the best audio to price ratio, I would think you should look at what small time musicians/studios use. After all, they're the ones that "need" their audio to sound good, and are not simply proud of owning a shiny amp. Another good point that was brought up was to look at what high end recording studios use, as you can't make something sound better (higher resolution) than what it was recorded on.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2020, 04:11:51 pm
content: Quote from: edy on March 05, 2020, 07:36:07 pmThere was no mention of the original poster's gender or preference. A group of nude virgin men, might be their cup of tea, for all you know.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2020, 11:12:25 pm
content: Quote from: GlennSprigg on March 10, 2020, 01:10:56 pmHeadphones take the room design out of the equation.