Datasheet for ULIS Pico384P-049? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Justinpiggy
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: December 12, 2018, 06:27:52 am
content: Hi, I wonder if someone has a copy of the datasheet(pinout, I2C register map, etc) for the ULIS Pico384P-049 thermal image sensor? I believe this is the same thing that Therm-app uses in their products. I happened to have a chance to buy one for a pretty reasonable price, so I want to write something on my FPGA board to get it rock.

author: Hydron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2018, 08:47:29 am
content: Question should be if someone has a copy and is also not bound by NDA - they're unfortunately strict about not having this stuff public.

author: Ultrapurple
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2018, 09:34:16 am
content: I have previously contacted Ulis over a different sensor and simply asked for info. They wanted to knowwhyI wanted to know and, as I was asking for casual interest rather than for a commercial design I felt I couldn't justify my request and dropped the enquiry. However, you may well have a 'good enough' reason - designing a 'new product' - so they may be forthcoming. But, just as Hydron says, almost certainly under a NDA.

author: mahony
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2018, 09:38:22 am
content: There is a japanesse document on the UL03162 detector available here:http://www.chronix.co.jp/chronixjp/products/picture/ulis/pdf/UL03162JP.pdfAnd english versions of the UL-03-04-1 are available here:https://wenku.baidu.com/view/157860dd5022aaea998f0fcc.htmland UL-03-26-2 here:https://wenku.baidu.com/view/a08388cf58f5f61fb7366674Not sure if any of those are exactly what you need but it might anyway give you a good direction to go.Edit: there are a lot more of those documents on wenku.baidu.com but I think for most of them you need to register to fully view and download them - If you do, sharing would certainly be appreciated here. ;-)

author: Ultrapurple
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2018, 10:56:39 am
content: Interesting to note that the 25µm '384 x 288' UL03 26 2 (and UL03 16 2) can actually be operated in a 392 x 296 mode - that's 116,032 pixels vs 110,592. Only an extra 5% or so, but interesting nonetheless. And I don't suppose those extra pixels are all guaranteed to be good (or even in the NUC data supplied with the sensor).I wonder how many other sensors out there are actually operable at higher pixel counts than they're technically rated for? I've seen some musings here on the ThermalExpert devices that suggests there may be untapped potential...

author: Hydron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2018, 11:01:09 am
content: Unfortunately those datasheets are not relevant to this sensor. The Pico384P has 36 pins and uses I2C for setup. I can sanity check any public documents that people manage to dig up but it probably doesn't hurt asking them directly if they can supply the document under NDA.

author: Justinpiggy
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: December 12, 2018, 02:43:16 pm
content: Well, I finally get the data sheet(Everything about the chip) I need. I got it from a special source and have not signed anything, so I am not bounded by NDA.(Maybe someone does, but I don't know who...). However, I still don't want to post it online. So please PM me if you are interested.Here is one page of the thing...

author: TRac
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: March 04, 2019, 10:35:39 pm
content: Quote from: Justinpiggy on December 12, 2018, 02:43:16 pm"PM could not be sent to 'Justinpiggy' as their inbox is full!"Hii readyour postcan you please provide the datasheet to me too?Would be fine if you can help me.Thank you in advanceJac

author: boywai
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 05, 2021, 03:59:35 pm
content: I want the manual too, can you send it to me

author: Ultrapurple
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 05, 2021, 04:07:01 pm
content: I would greatly appreciate a copy of the datasheet too. Please PM me.Ultrapurple

author: ArsenioDev
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 06, 2021, 02:29:56 pm
content: Seconding this, I've got 3 of these sensors and would like to make a custom core around them.

author: DouglasKoo
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: May 27, 2022, 06:44:09 pm
content: Could you send a copy of the datasheet to me ? I do like to make my own IR thermal camera from custom PCB for learning.

author: dalittle
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2022, 03:44:01 am
content: Hi Folks,The ICDs for LWIR detectors are export controlled items. Especially in the US or the UK, you can get into some real trouble by exporting (or posting) the document (including the pinouts drawing which is part of the ICD). And, should you export the documents to "persons" to certain countries (such as China or Iran) you can get into real real trouble. Not that the Chinese don't already have the ICDs for the ULIS 384X288 FPA assemblies. ULIS has exported thousands of FPAs to China integrators already over the years - but they did it "properly."May want to consider removing the ULIS pinout posted here.For those in the US, most FPAs by themselves are covered under the ITAR while camera engine assemblies (volts-in/video-out "cameras" with optics) fall under the EAR. There is a major difference between the rules with ITAR being the more controlled.Hope this helps.davidPS: and no, I don't work for OEE. I just happen to know this.

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2022, 08:13:31 am
content: I remain surprised at the mount of technical information that ULIS released via various seminars and white papers for organisations like SPIE.org. I learnt a lot about the technical aspects of microbolometer design from their publicly released documents. ULIS were far more open about the technology that they were employing within their microbolometer FPA's than their USA based counterparts. Many European thermal camera manufacturers chose ULIS FPA's over USA sourced FPA's due to the far easier procurement process.We now see some China produced Microbolometer FPA's that produce decent images. The image processing in complete systems remains a little brutal for my tastes but that will improve with time. It was interesting to see both genuine ULIS microbolometers and what appeared to be clones of ULIS microbolometers coming out of China a few years ago. They were, however, different as ULIS produces A-Si based microbolometers whereas the Chinese versions were VOx. Interesting times and it remains to be seen how well Chinese manufacturers control their documentation. I have actually found it very challenging to obtain Integration documents for Chinese microbolometers and relatively easy to find many such documents for ULIS FPA's (leaked via Chinese sources) IRay seem unwilling to share integration documents and most datasheets that I have are produced only in Mandarin.Fraser

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2022, 08:29:22 am
content: dalittle,Your comments on the way thermal detection FPA's and complete thermal detection cores/engines /cameras are treated mirrors what I have previously read on specific FPA's & cameras classifications under ITAR. I own many Industrial grade thermal cameras that contain a 'military grade' microbolometer that is covered by ITAR and this used to make me think that the whole camera was ITAR liable. That just seemed logical to me. Other knowledgeable members of this forum highlighted the Dual Use technology regulations and associated EAR system that covered the cameras. I have cameras that specifically state that they contain an ITAR liable FPA whereas other cameras are just 'Export Controlled'. As we know, thermal imaging technology used to be the preserve of wealthy companies and Governments (Military) but with the reduction in prices, such technology is now widespread and controlling distribution around the World must be a nightmare. Selling a pile of thermal cores or cameras to certain countries will not go unnoticed however.Fraser

author: zrq
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2022, 09:34:26 am
content: dalittle, If you want to stay away from trouble, I respect your decision.However if someone is happy to take the risk and willing to share such information, please don't try to censor them.Such info would be almost no use at all for big/state sponsored players, just saving a few man-month for reverse engineering, which is nothing. But it's very different for hobbyists with limited resources.Putting such lowest end sensors under ITAR is laughable, should we put a ITAR controlled sticker on each Audi car with Autoliv NV3/NV4?Fraser, an explanation for hard to get interface documents for Chinese FPAs would be: those sensors are too new and yet only used by themselves, the same reason for you cannot get a full datasheet for the SoC in your phone. I don't think they do this because they consider those to be "military grade items" and for "export control" reasons.Besides, the image processing (before producing a image suitable for human eye, not about automated systems) applied in any infrared sensor system I personally know, is quite rudimentary.

author: dalittle
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2022, 03:47:24 am
content: Fraser,How right you are about ULIS! We always were amazed at the almost seemingly nonchalant way ULIS treated exports of their FPAs (mind you, these were FPAs, not “cameras.”) Concurrently, the US authorities were in my view overly pedantic about exports especially with respect to allied countries such as those in NATO+. And the combination of these factors were a tremendous commercial benefit to ULIS as US competitors lost sales to European OEMs and integrators solely due to the divergence in export policies.France is a member of Wassenaar and all members are supposed to read from the same sheet of music. But seemingly not so, in reality. Take for instance exports to China. The French export policy (Their MoD who controlled export of FPAs on the French end) allowed the export of FPAs to China at a time when NOBODY else was allowed to do that. It was difficult enough for my company, and FLIR, FLUKE, Bullard, e2v, etc., to obtain a license to China for a commercial firefighting or PPM camera. An FPA? Forget about it.Second point, and related to the ULIS export practices: the very first FPAs that were developed in China were a:Si. In fact, they looked exactly like a ULIS, including packaging and pinout. Engineers tell me they were very similar electrically. That said, the Chinese failed to get some not so obvious things right when they copied it and that resulted in a noisy detector. And because the core development expertise wasn’t there, there was a bit of “scratch head” going on their end and those issues were never really resolved. And, as you probably know, the early ULIS FPAs (45u variants) were pretty noisy themselves, so in comparison you can imagine just how noisy the Chinese ones were. Early Dali, Guide and SAT cameras were among ones who either tried to use, or used those Chinese FPAs in products.Side note: the very first thermal imaging in China was pyroelectric vidicon. They obtained tubes from Thompson in France (again) as a basis. China variant was pretty much unusable though. There were only three worldwide sources of PEV tubes; Thompson, EEV, and some bird in Russia named Tatiana. And I don’t think EEV would sell them any tubes.Back to a:Si: I imagine with reasonable confidence that the availability of products and technical data from ULIS was a jumpstart for the Chinese and as such they started with a:Si. VOx came later, I suppose it took longer for them to obtain the technical data because it was more tightly controlled as VOx was exclusively American at the time.All that said, today, China has come a long way. Their products look much better than before. Companies like IRay, HIKVision, Wuhan Guide, SAT, etc. have very nice commercial offerings albeit they still have some catching-up to do. The Chinese don’t have the most advanced stuff. I suppose though eventually they will get their hands on it but by then we will have moved on. I think that in order for them to supersede the west technologically, the mindset and culture will need to change. I don’t think that will happen any time soon. The practices (and mindset) are too engrained. The old saying “you don’t know what you don’t know” applies as well.A pilot with 200 flight hours is now confident in his abilities. This is when accidents happen. An airline pilot with 10,000 flight hours doesn’t make many mistakes.Lastly regarding ITAR vs EAR cameras, the rule of thumb we used to use is that dual use is anything that is a commercial use not “specifically designed” for military. However, that doesn’t always hold true. Gun sights are always ITAR, even if the product is low rez and targets the hunting market. In addition, certain products that were originally assigned CCL 6a003 (camera) could be issued a CJ (change of jurisdiction) and become ITAR restricted. US DoD (or UK MoD) can do that pretty much at will. The authorities have a lot of eyes looking and if your stuff is found in the wrong hands and/or being used not as agreed in the export docs, you may be issued a CJ. This is not the only way to get a CJ but it’s one of the ways. To avoid problems, suggest anyone wishing to export contact the export authorities and they will know. Lastly, technical documentation and supporting software are controlled as well. For instance, software used in production for calibration, etc.So, we had two engineering centers; one in England and one in the US. We had to have firewalls between the two centers (centres.) We had to obtain licenses to export hardware, software, ICDs, etc. to our own people in England and visa versa, the Brits had to do the same. This business is not for those who lack discipline and attention to detail.Hope this was fun and entertaining.Dalittle

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2022, 02:01:12 pm
content: An excellent read. Thank youFraser

author: Bill W
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 19, 2022, 01:43:03 pm
content: Quote from: dalittle on July 18, 2022, 03:47:24 amIndeed David.The 'Wassenaar hymn-sheet' as it were though is in defining *WHAT* gets controlled, not the minutiae of how to control it.So 9Hz is fine (almost) anywhere.France did not allow the peltier controlled sensors out though (ULIS 0319) as they were considered military, while the 0316 etc were (surprisingly as you say) OK.Very different procedures even to the UK.The unusual aspect of US control is the common addition of onward controls, not accepting a NATO+ nation would control sensibly. That even varied by OEM. As eev/MarconiAT we only had to report monthly shipments under the NATO+ licenses, while I think ISG (maybe before your time there) had to get approval on a per sensor kit basis to even get the kits.When we tried to sell into Saudi (required additional US approval, after UK for the cameras) , all that happened was the US embassy in Saudi tipped of the Bullard sales rep to steal the order !Bill

author: dalittle
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 19, 2022, 04:00:08 pm
content: Bill,You have been around the block a couple of times, obviously. You may even go back to the days of the P4420. It’s a shame that Avon has pretty much shut it down and I believe Jon is the only one left over there. So much core competencies lost as I believe the successors did not understand how to run a thermal imaging business. I also think e2v gave the business away, but that is another separate discussion.I do recall the first variants of TE cooled Ulis FPAs. We did integrate those at ISG, in particular into products for the European markets. We then transitioned into the TEC-less ones later on. And, I wasn’t aware that France only exported TECless FPAs to China, how interesting! I must say, I’ve experienced my wife engaging in illogical logic, so it does happen.We did have “bulk” licenses at ISG, both from the US and from UK. And, the US’s onward controls was, as you say, the most cumbersome part of the process. In the earlier days, before ULIS, we exported BST from the American office of ISG to the UK, integrated, and then transferred onwards. We had to annually report the whereabouts of each unit by serial number, user, etc. I imagine MAT did the same with Argus2.Fun times.Dalittle

author: IR_Geek
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 19, 2022, 05:25:29 pm
content: Love the history lesson! Very good information.Thanks.

author: Matwis
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: July 24, 2024, 02:32:40 pm
content: Does anyone have a datasheet for the PICO384P-049