Repair or Replace - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: mengfei
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2023, 06:19:41 am
content: From where I am, 20+ years ago it was very common to repair broken AV systems or other electronic/ electrical stuff where parts are easily bought like resistors, diodes or caps & IC's but with the latest trend in electronics being almost all-in-one modules & very small electronic parts is it still practical in your area to do repairs or just get a whole module from the net or just completely replace with the latest thing?I remember that time that we also converted PAL/ SECAM TV's signals to NTSC

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2023, 06:47:17 am
content: The repair itself is just as easy as it has always been, perhaps you need some additional tools like a microscope, but that's about it.The issue isn't the repair itself its getting the schematic/service manual/service software and the parts. Which is all artificial limitations on 3rd party repair.The whole "modular repair" thing is not really the whole story.Yes, it's cheaper/faster to hire low-skilled staff to follow a simple diagnostic flowchart and replace the entire PCB while the customer waits, rather than have an engineer fix it.But a lot of the time the business will double-dip. The store will charge the customer the cost of an entire new module, which is expensive and has high profit.Then every month all stores box up all the dead modules and ship them to one location where a small number of engineers do component level repair on them in bulk and turn them into refurbished boards for all the low skilled shop workers to use as new modules for repair.Saves on shipping, only requires a very few skilled engineers, and you get to charge for the module twice, maybe even more times as you sell it again and again.(I think this should be illegal, but that's another story)

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2023, 08:33:17 am
content: Quote from: Psi on November 13, 2023, 06:47:17 amIt is illegal if the customer is told they're getting a new module, when it's second hand.

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2023, 10:53:22 am
content: Quote from: Zero999 on November 13, 2023, 08:33:17 amYes, They are often trained to use specific words... "Yes Sir, we can fix your device, the replacement part cost is $454" etc.. specific word use to avoid actually saying it's a new part and leave you to assume it is.Usually no one knows to even ask if the part is refurbished. Even if you did ask the sales person may not even know

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2023, 11:01:18 pm
content: Quote from: Psi on November 13, 2023, 10:53:22 amIt will be somewhere in the impossibly long terms and conditions including gems like:"may use parts or products that are new or refurbished and equivalent to new in performance and reliability""may be repaired or replaced by new or refurbished goods of the same functionality, at [sole providers] discretion""may be made with parts of like kind and quality, including non-original manufacturer's parts or remanufactured parts, as necessary"The lawyers no doubt had fun writing this.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2023, 11:28:14 pm
content: Hasnt the automotive industry been using this method for years with there core charge?

author: Circlotron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 14, 2023, 04:51:32 am
content: Quote from: themadhippy on November 13, 2023, 11:28:14 pmYes, but many automotive parts can be returned to as-new condition simply by machining worn surfaces to a good finish and exact size. And if it is done on modern equipment the results can be better than new if the original manufacturing process was a bit hit and miss.

author: Black Phoenix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 14, 2023, 05:34:49 am
content: Quote from: Circlotron on November 14, 2023, 04:51:32 amAnd PCBs can also be returned to the same condition if all the parts affected are replaced.It you say "no, it is a refurbished part" then, the case you speak off in the automotive industry is also refurbishment. Any operation on a part after the same part has been manufactured can be called refurbishment.So I don't see the problem/issue here. If it is correctly done it has the same quality if not better than a new, out of production line, part.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 14, 2023, 10:13:19 am
content: Quote from: Black Phoenix on November 14, 2023, 05:34:49 amIt's only as good as new if the PCB isn't damaged and all of the parts are replaced, not just the defective ones. Parts age, especially electrolytic capacitors and semiconductors which are under a lot of stress. I would not be happy if I had a board sold to me as new and it had lots of old parts.

author: hans
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 14, 2023, 12:15:39 pm
content: Quote from: Circlotron on November 14, 2023, 04:51:32 amI've a hard time picturing what you mean?E.g. if I've a cupped tyre, then I could opt to shave some rubber off to make the tyre perfectly round again. Tyre 'repaired', vibrations solved. However, I would have to mark such a tyre as "refurbished", because its not "new" since shaving some rubber off will cost thread depth, so less remaining tyre lifetime.Likewise, if other mechnical parts wear out by becoming too thin or begin to have other clearance issues, then its not possible to machine them to original spec. Its a subtractive manufacturing step.Maybe some parts "wear out" because of carbon deposition and what not, but thats a minority, and I would call that "cleaning" and not "repairing".

author: mendip_discovery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 14, 2023, 12:41:54 pm
content: I doubt the modular pcb boards go anywhere to be repaired. I suspect it's cheaper and more reliable to just make a new board.I know some places like to refurb stuff but that is usually mech stuff and that is often strip, clean, new seals and reassemble and test.

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2023, 10:40:44 pm
content: Quote from: Psi on November 13, 2023, 06:47:17 amSo devices have gotten more complex, have more parts, wider variety of parts, probably more proprietary, and smaller SMD parts, and yet they are "just as easy" to repair?Yeah no.

author: armandine2
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 16, 2023, 08:42:17 am
content: ... last night I tried the well known fading LCD segments zebra strip repair to my own Fluke 73.My first actual repair of this type, after watching it done a fair few times on YouTube - over the years.So, my experience was it took less than 5 minutes and there were no issues.I've had this multimeter from new and the LCD segments were increasingly fading and going missing.The long delay at a simple repair attempt I think was in part down to the repair/replace conflict over the zebra strips - as without the simple experience of a successful cleaning repair under your belt "the being sold a replacement new part solution" was normal.[edited to add an old picture of my Fluke 73][edited to add a new picture of my Fluke 73][edited to add another digit]

author: mengfei
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 21, 2023, 01:37:59 am
content: ^ Good move there!Back in the day had to repair a Marantz Amplifier that came from 3 other repair shops & I was shocked to see the one of the Main Output Board's (single side) copper traces peeling off coz of repeated soldering. Told the owner there is no way to repair/ fix this mangled board But I had a solution.Told him that I could copy the other output channel that was working & that's what i did. Manually tracing & measuring the distance of parts then whipping out a potion of Ferric Chloride & Varnish. Made a new amp channel & got it working with "almost" no Audible differencePatience is a virtue of those back in the dayNow only a few has it, when we bring something to be repaired, mostly will say oh we have to replace the whole PSU or Control Board or Mainboard

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 23, 2023, 09:25:27 pm
content: Quote from: mendip_discovery on November 14, 2023, 12:41:54 pmComputer and phone manufacturers most definitely do it. We know this because we occasionally hear about people who found less-than-perfectly refurbished boards after a repair.