4ch. Scope Opinions & Suggestions what to buy around 1k€ - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: Markus2801A
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2021, 08:39:10 am
content: I'm searching for agood "mid-ranged" Oscilloscope around 1000€and really would appreciate yourhonest and unbiased opinionsandsuggestions, also about the "Chinese" alternatives (Rigol, Siglent, Micsig, Owon, Hantek etc.), to the well known higher priced Brands like R&S, Keysight, Tektronix & co.What I really would like to have besidesgood build quality and usability(reliable measurements of course!)is a nice andusable WebInterface.If this is not available a good readable Screen with reasonable size would be mandatory!Good FFT would be very nice!If I had the money, I would go for the RTB2004! But that starts at approx. 2k5€ And honestly I'm not sure if its worth the money if other alternatives can achive almost the same at much lower price?I will use the oscilloscope for preparing my lessons for my students, so taking screenshots and measurements for my slides and Videos how to setup the Scope etc.Any suggestions and opionions are welcome!Kind Regards and thanks in advance!Markus from Austria :-)PS.: As I'm a MAC (M1) user, software to remote control the scope is, unfortunately useless (except there would be a Mac Version), that's why I would like to have a good WebIf.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2021, 09:32:37 am
content: SDS2104X Plus ticks all of your boxes except a little over budget.Webserver allows for projection to a large display via any PC browser and includes a SCPI panel for remote commands however you do have full remote control of the scope with just a mouse and keyboard.Research it here:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/

author: Andreas
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2021, 09:50:15 am
content: Quote from: Markus2801A on July 17, 2021, 08:39:10 amHello,as long as you do not measure high (mains) voltages, you could consider a PicoScope.PS3404D / PS3403D with USB 3.0 connection.There is also a MAC-Version control software which can be tested (in Demo Mode).https://www.picotech.com/downloadsNo affiliation with PicoTech only a happy user of PS5444A at home and several other devices (PS4824/PS4425) at work.Some Pros:- easy documentation (screenshots)- bode plot (free 3rd Party software) Edit: sorry only Windows Version available.- good FFT with possibility to average several FFT outputs to reduce noise floor (dependant on max Memory available)with best regardsAndreas

author: Markus2801A
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2021, 11:03:46 am
content: Quote from: Andreas on July 17, 2021, 09:50:15 amI had the opportunity to test the PicoScope 5444D also with latest BETA Version of v7 Software, but I'm note impressed of it regarding Price, Performance and especially usability.I dont like the Software, it doesnt feel "right" to me.Also i like to have the ability to also control the device offline and directly, which is not possible via a PicoScope.The almost "perfect" expereince I had was with the RTB2004, but as stated in my innitial post, its way to high priced for me as I`m purchasing it with my own money.Quote from: tautech on July 17, 2021, 09:32:37 amTheSiglent SDS2104X Plusgoes forapprox < 1.500€(incl. VAT) so it would be okay for me, if it satisfies my needs/wishes ;-)I will take it into further consideration! :-) THX!

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2021, 11:12:54 am
content: Quote from: Markus2801A on July 17, 2021, 11:03:46 amHow about calling R&S for an educational discount?One thing I would consider is what kind of oscilloscope your students are likely to encounter at their future workplaces.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2021, 11:13:10 am
content: Quote from: Markus2801A on July 17, 2021, 11:03:46 amOk, I only see the €1,199 here:https://www.siglenteu.com/digital-oscilloscopes/sds2000xp/If you hunt around you might be able to find stock with the now finished free options promotion so there's no need to hack it if its ~185 MHz BW is plenty for your needs.BTW I've seen a new FW beta version that's close to release and a new feature for remote file storage might also be useful for your needs. When it's released I'll announce it in the SDS2kX Plus thread.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2021, 11:31:41 am
content: The MicSigs are excellent devices, they have big screens and easily the best user interface around (use touch screen or mouse). They're also very portable so you can take one along to class and they have HDMI output for big screens.There's full remote control for PC/Android. I don't think the PC software will work on M1 but the Android version might.Quote from: Markus2801A on July 17, 2021, 08:39:10 amYou don't say exactly why the remote control is important. If it's for screenshots then Micsigs have Wifi and an ftp server so you easily can grab screenshots without USB sticks.You can also record and edit videos on the 'scope itself and all the Micsig "setup" tends to be on a single page instead of spread over several submenus like traditional 'scopes, ie. you can see all the parameters at once. This is one of the things that makes the user interface so great and seems like it could be very valuable for teaching about 'scopes.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2021, 12:03:05 pm
content: Not to be a stickler, just few comments, if you will.In industry, what is called mid range scopes, start at or above 4000 series devices.Fancy as it is R&S RTB2000 is technically (very) low end device. Even RTM3000 is still entry level range...It all depends on priorities: is it important to you to stick with "what you feel" or are you willing to learn new things to be able to do your job better and easier (after initial learning curve, of course).You are correct, if you select embedded scope device, web interface is helpful. Siglent SDS2104X Plus is excellent device, and best buy for the money in it's class.It has some very advanced features and math. Large touch screen. Remote control uses VNC protocol, so you can use any VNC client too, including ones that can record sessions to video.If only they added a possibility to directly map network drives, you could save captures directly to network share from the scope, that would be great. Or open them and apply to scope...Maybe they would .....If you need cheaper, Micisig devices are interesting. Very basic (they don't even have statistics on measurements), but they can directly record small videos of scope in action, right on device. For education that is useful. You will have to copy it of the device manually..Picoscope has advantage of running right on your PC. You can save sessions and data and open it later. You can give that to your pupils to open it in software even if they don't have a scope connected. And apply math, decodes and measurements after the fact... It has most advanced math, it can have 10s of windows, each with it's own measurements... Multiple zoom windows..Each of them will be able to do many things for you. I would suggest to create a framework of curriculum, a list of what you want to accomplish.Do you plan to carry it around? Do you need this only to prepare written notes? Is this theoretical, or hands on class?Once you create clear plan, a requirement analysis if you will, it will be clear what capabilities you need, and what would be be the best way to go about that business.RegardsP.S. how's MTX 3293 doing? Still happy with it ?

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2021, 02:44:00 pm
content: I don't know what your use case is, but I have the Siglent SDS2104X Plus, and it's awesome. The web interface is excellent, and updates very fast.Here's a screen capture video I recently made to send to somebody while we were searching for a problem for our solution:https://youtu.be/5rHdDBE1T6MYou can view that in full HD since the monitor it was captured on is FHD. Obviously the same would be true on a full screen view of a 4K monitor.The SDS2104X Plus should only cost you €1199.I guess I should also mention you can use it with the touch screen, or you can also use an external mouse and/or keyboard. I have a wireless Logitech mouse connected to mine. I've also used it with a wireless keyboard/touchpad, but I really only ever used the keyboard to put the codes in.Thanks,Josh

author: Markus2801A
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2021, 03:12:42 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on July 17, 2021, 11:12:54 amAlready did i and had very good contact with the regional sales manager. Unfortunately he left the company with the end of the past month, so I have to make new contact with the new Manager. I'm not sure if he will grant educational price (mentioned price was for RTB2004 with all options enabled, but I don’t need all of them for example protocol decoders are useless for me)QuoteIn this case I will have to buy many different scopes ;-)Quote from: tautech on July 17, 2021, 11:13:10 amI think the 1.199€ on signets site is without tax. Iwas looking at the batronix site. As far as i know they offer very good prices :-)Patronin offers the Siglent SDS2104X Plus with some features already included:https://www.batronix.com/versand/oszilloskope/Siglent-SDS2104X-plus.htmlQuote from: Fungus on July 17, 2021, 11:31:41 amThanks for also recommending the Micsig devices.I already had a look on them, but I´m not sure if they are a good value for the money. But I will take them into consideration.The demand for remote controlling the device is, because it's easier to sit in front of my PC with 32“ 4k monitor and look at the results ;-) It's more convenient and I enjoyed it while I was able to test the RTB2004! It as almost the greatest expereince with measurement equipment I encountered In my "Teacher Career".Quote from: 2N3055 on July 17, 2021, 12:03:05 pmYou are absolutely right! I totally agree with you! But unfortunately I don’t have the money to buy higher end scopes since I don’t get any support and have to buy everything from my wallet.Education in austria is unfortunately not well supported regarding financial situation. The authorities are always trying to save money etc. Thats why i by and already bought equipment by myself to give my student a little clue whats possible outside school.I tried many years ago to get 4x Rigol scopes for laboratory lessons (approx. 285€ each). No chance, it was denied.Quote from: 2N3055 on July 17, 2021, 12:03:05 pmI`m ready to learn new things, as i don’t want to stick with what Ive learnd in the past. I want to progress to give my student the best education I`m able to teach with my limited possibilities.You are correct, if you select embedded scope device, web interface is helpful. Siglent SDS2104X Plus is excellent device, and best buy for the money in it's class.It has some very advanced features and math. Large touch screen. Remote control uses VNC protocol, so you can use any VNC client too, including ones that can record sessions to video.If only they added a possibility to directly map network drives, you could save captures directly to network share from the scope, that would be great. Or open them and apply to scope...Maybe they would ..... ￼ ￼Quote from: 2N3055 on July 17, 2021, 12:03:05 pmThat is one argument which makes me unsure about those devices. Yes they are cheaper than the mentioned Siglent, but if there is lacking to much features it wouldn’t be future proof for me?!Quote from: 2N3055 on July 17, 2021, 12:03:05 pmMy list:build qualityUsabilityMeasurement accuracyFFT (better than the cheap ones!)WebInterface (Remote control with mac via browser)Future proofPrice :-)....to be continuedQuote from: 2N3055 on July 17, 2021, 12:03:05 pmNice that you remember the old post about DMM. It is indeed a very good device. In the meanwhile CA released the newer version as far as I found out, there has almost nothing changed besides the color ;-)Quote from: KungFuJosh on July 17, 2021, 02:44:00 pmThat sounds great, thanks for your opinion and the video!1199 is exl. Tax I think!?

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2021, 03:40:01 pm
content: Quote from: Markus2801A on July 17, 2021, 03:12:42 pmSure, but the tax isn't for the scope. That's to pay the people that decide not to pay the teachers well enough....and btw- OUCH that tax is painful.Thanks,Josh

author: Markus2801A
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2021, 03:50:15 pm
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on July 17, 2021, 03:40:01 pmAmen!exactly you are right! 20% in Austria, it hurts!

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2021, 03:58:05 pm
content: Quote from: Markus2801A on July 17, 2021, 03:50:15 pmYeah, I complain about the local 6.25% tax on stuff that expensive.It gets worse though. I sent something to a friend in Belgium, they charged almost 80% for an import tax!

author: Markus2801A
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2021, 04:42:53 pm
content: I try to make a comparison/list of Oscilloscopes which I take into consideration.The prices are the one I have to pay, so including Austrian +20% VATSiglent SDS 2104X Plus: 1.438,80€100Mhz inlcuding:SDS-2000XP-PA, SDS-2000XP-CANFD, SDS-2000XP-FlexRay, SDS-2000XP-IIS, SDS-2000XP-1553B und SDS-2000XP-FGMicsig STO1104E Plus: 603,72€100MHzportable!according to other users: very good interface, basic measurements/statistics features?Rigol MSO5074: 1.078,80€70Mhz (hackable?!)including:Rigol MSO5000-COMP Rigol MSO5000-EMBD Rigol MSO5000-AUTO Rigol MSO5000-FLEX Rigol MSO5000-AUDIO Rigol MSO5000-AERO Rigol MSO5000-PWR Rigol MSO5000-AWGGW Instek MDO-2074EG oscilloscope: 1.205,00€70Mhz including "SpectrumAnalyzer"hackable? maybe not sureWebinterface???Owon XDS3104AE: 720,€100Mhz12bit ADC! (native?)WebIF???hackable? maybe not sureHantek MPO6004D: 729,00€100MhzWebIF???hackable? maybe not sureANY other suggestions are welcome!!!

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2021, 04:46:44 pm
content: In case you didn't know yet, the SDS2104X Plus and the SDS2504X Plus are the same hardware...and I'm not sure if anybody on this site with a 2104X Plus doesn't have theirs "upgraded" to 500Mhz.

author: Markus2801A
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2021, 04:49:23 pm
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on July 17, 2021, 04:46:44 pmThanks for the hint. Yes I already read about it, is it easy for me to also unlock the scope?The information regarding is is sometimes a little bit confusing for me, since im not a programmer.Also not sure if the steps required to unlock it are "valid" for the newly purchased scopes-But yes it would be nice to upgrade it for free :-)

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2021, 04:57:45 pm
content: Quote from: Markus2801A on July 17, 2021, 04:49:23 pmI think as an educator, you should be fine following the step-by-step guides if you choose to go that route.

author: tv84
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2021, 05:14:01 pm
content: If you can pay the SDS2kX+, don't look back.

author: Markus2801A
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2021, 05:21:48 pm
content: Seems almost everything indicates I should go for theSiglent SDS2104X PlusHow is the implementation of the FFT in this model? Fast, reliable and useful results?I mean when I feed it with a sinusoid voltage, e.g. 1V Amplitude (0.5V peak to peak!!!), it should give me as result a FFT bin at the corresponding frequency in Vrms setting of 0.707V

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2021, 05:37:29 pm
content: Quote from: Markus2801A on July 17, 2021, 03:12:42 pmSure, but using a mouse to control a device that's designed to be controlled using buttons and twisty knobs is a horrible experience.eg.https://youtu.be/pc3rnMLdOVk?t=181I hope you like using drop down lists then clicking an "Apply" button...

author: Markus2801A
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2021, 06:42:07 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on July 17, 2021, 05:37:29 pmMy idea is to make the adjustments directly on the scope and just look at the results in "full screen" via Web Interface an 32" Monitor :-)

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2021, 07:26:48 pm
content: Quote from: Markus2801A on July 17, 2021, 06:42:07 pmDisregard this irrelevant comment. His link is to SDS1000X-E series that is not a touch screen scope.SDS2000X+ are touch screen scopes and are driven by touchscreen, mouse at the device and in remote screen on PC in a same way...Like tv84 said, if you can afford SDS2000X+, go for it. You explained your needs (thank you for that) and SDS2000X ticks most of the boxes. If I were you, that would be my choice.And it is based on a platform that is in active development, and had already seen much expanded capabilities since time it was released. And can be expected to see more refinements. So that is your future proof...I remembered about Metrix, because we had active conversation about it at the time. There are not many Metrix users like us here... New C.A. one has expanded logging capability (more points) and improved graphic plotting (even something that resembles a low speed scope) with better control. All else is the same.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2021, 07:32:08 pm
content: Quote from: Markus2801A on July 17, 2021, 06:42:07 pmFrom my experience: that won't work very well. The controls and display will be too far apart to make sense. If you want a big screen in your price range, then go for the MicSig (either with knobs + touchscreen or touchscreen only).

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2021, 07:59:02 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on July 17, 2021, 07:32:08 pmHis scope might be 5 inches from the bigger screen, we don't know.IME I haven't had any issues doing it that way at all. I don't mind using the mouse on the screen and ignoring the knobs once the main measurements are setup.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2021, 08:52:27 pm
content: The Micsig can do the Android "screencast" thing where the screen is broadcast wirelessly (over "Miracast").My PC can receive/display it with Windows 10. I don't know about Macs.Edit: Nope. It looks like Apple has a thing against Miracast, they want you to use Apple's AirPlay instead.----A HDMI->USB video capture box would work though (about $100 for a really good one). Connect the Micsig to your Mac using one of those.You can use the video capture box for other things, too.

author: Markus2801A
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2021, 07:36:49 am
content: I've read/watched some reviews regardingMicsigandGwInstek. They seem to be pretty well designed units!So I will keep them in mind :-) Lets say we have three devices left:Siglent,MicsigandGwInstekto choose from.Hm, not easy to decide. All of them have their pros and cons.Siglent SDS2104X PlusGW Instek MDO-2074EGMicsig STO1104E Plus1.438,80€1.205,00€603,72€Micsigwould be the "cheapest" but also well equipped unit for its price range.I was not able to find exact infos on wether a WebIf is available on the T1000E Plus series.It seems the tBook mini Series has a webIF according to theiruser manual? Page 105GwInstekI think they are reliable and will grow market share, since they deliver good quality at a good price level.It seems they are not as widespread here like Rigol and Siglent. But there are also good reviews and opinions about their units!Siglentseems the best supported unit of the three here at eevblog. So it should be possible with the help from eevblog-users to "liberate" it :-)Also if I have questions, I think the response here will be very fast.I also think regardless which scope I buy it will not be my last scope. To keep up with the ongoing development I also have to stay as up2date as my wallet allows me to. This is also to offer experience to my students which are relativ on par with whats going on in real world (outside the well "protected" school world). A not so high priced scope would be easer to replace in a few years with a new "up2date" unit.I have the Rigol DS1054Z (100Mhz hacked) at home, so the new one should be a huge step up. :-)

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2021, 08:15:47 am
content: Quote from: Markus2801A on July 18, 2021, 07:36:49 amRevenue wise GW Instek is bigger than Rigol and Siglent together. GW Instek has been around longer and has a much broader portfolio also reaching into the higher end market. It is just that they are not doing much on the marketing side so they are relatively unknown. And since their devices don't have that many bugs they don't get that much attention on this forum.Several years ago I was wary about buying one of their scopes but I was pleasantly surprised by the ease of operation and responsiveness of the support department. I found a few bugs in the GDS-2204E (it was relatively new back then) and they fixed those within 2 weeks. I'd recommend getting the GDS2000E or MSO2000E series oscilloscope if you go for a GW Instek. Both can be hacked using a simple key generator to include the spectrum analysis option and higher bandwidth.

author: Markus2801A
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2021, 08:38:12 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on July 18, 2021, 08:15:47 amHm, very interesting, and that sounds great! Quality and service/support (fixing of bugs firmware update etc) is very important to me!So if the device works and marketing is not as big as other competitors, which I don't care, it could be the right device, maybe!? ;-)

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2021, 09:14:42 am
content: While I agree with Nico that GDS/MSO2000E are good devices, lets be real. Those devices are in the class of SDS 1204X-E from Siglent (2x1GS/sec converters, 10 ish MPts memory). I agree that GW 2000E series is a little more capable than SDS1204X-E but is hilarious to ask same kind of money as for SDS2000X+. GW-Insteks are good scopes, but bad value, for the prices they ask...As I said, you can get Micsig, that is in some parameters better than DS1000Z you have now, but in some ways is much worse. It has no statistics in measurement (that is something used all the time), it has no trend plot. It has better connectivity, HDMI out, decoding is better. It is also very low noise. But that scope really shines if you need portable and battery power. It works very well for what it is, but is very basic scope. To be clear: I own one, and love it, for it's purpose of being portable and still being enough of a scope to do the job.GW Instek are good devices, and 2000E series are, despite looking like a toy, a decent and well made devices. But they are very old school and some things are not up to modern standards. like screen rendering, for instance. It is too expensive for it's class. It they were priced, maybe, a 100 € more than SDS1140X-E that would make them a good deal. But with current prices, I would skip them, on economics grounds.And then a SDS2000X+. 10" capacitive touch screen and new touch GUI. 100/200 Mpoints of acquisition memory. 2x2GS/sec A/D, 2 full duplex decodes and 2 math channels with arbitrary expressions. Zone triggering, histicons, trend plots, 2MPoints FFT, low noise front ends with max sensitivity of 500uV/div. and the list goes on... It really is a class or 2 above...A word of friendly advice: you have been given all the info already, even repeatedly. And you keep going in circles. Take 3-4 of those scopes mentioned and download their user manual and datasheet. Sit down and make an Excel sheet with list of what you need. And go feature by feature and see which can do which. In an hour you will have a table, a matrix, of which fits you best. Go and buy that one and start with your work. Time spent on search for a perfect scope is wasted. It doesn't exist. Not even if you had 20000€ for it.Best,

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2021, 09:21:23 am
content: Quote from: Markus2801A on July 17, 2021, 05:21:48 pmIts 2 MPts is excellent when you need such fine results but at some settings a full sweep seems slow vs a spectrum analyzer however when you learn to drive it by reducing the Mpts and thereby increasing the sweep speed it's excellent and quite different that the SDS1202X-E you apparently have when I checked your profile.X Plus has all the same FFT tools plus a good few more and its UI has better setup options which are more like a SA but of course not as powerful.Like the X-E the X Plus FFT works best with lots of waveform data (lower timebase) rather than just a few waveform cycles on the display.There's a good # of SDS2104X Plus FFT images in this thread to study:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/two-tone-test-with-scope-and-sa/

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2021, 09:27:09 am
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on July 18, 2021, 09:14:42 amThat depends on whether you need something which works as expected and doesn't throw you a curve ball at the worst possible time. The GW Instek scopes just work. Last year I spend about 2.5k euro on a dual channel 25MHz arbitrary function generator because I needed one which just works. In the end you get what you pay for; there ain't no such thing as a free lunch.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2021, 09:32:20 am
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on July 18, 2021, 09:14:42 amYMMV but the OP will know whether he uses statistics mode a lot on his DS1054Z.Do you agree that if it had statistics then the Micsig would be one of the best 'scopes available under $1000? I think so. Even without it I wouldn't go back to my Rigol 1054Z, the Micsig shines in so many other ways.There's an ongoing thread here where Micsig is supposedly listening to our feedback. I've already mentioned statistics mode and pointed them to this thread. Let's see what happens...

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2021, 10:01:19 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on July 17, 2021, 11:12:54 amI wouldn't.I would expect an educational establishment to teach the fundamentals that can be and will be of use inanyworkplace over the comingdecades.Isaac Asimov wrote a cautionary tale ("Profession") illustrating what happens if you do what nctnico suggests; it shaped my careerverybeneficially. If you can tolerate the eyewatering "GeoCities" style, you can speed read it here:http://www.abelard.org/asimov.php

author: Markus2801A
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2021, 10:05:20 am
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on July 18, 2021, 09:14:42 amYou are so right! I'm wasting time, there will never be the perfect "device" regardless which one we are talking about, be it a TV, a mobile phone, car, or oscilloscope!!!Quote from: Fungus on July 18, 2021, 09:32:20 amI think the Micsig seems to be a perfect REPLACEMENT for the Rigol DS1054Z Series! It seems to be much more powerful and as you said "one of the best 'scopes available under $1000?"But feature and spec wise: the Siglent seems much more superior - which is no surprise as it cost almost 2,4 times the price of the Micsig. So a comparison is not fair IMHO :-)Quote from: nctnico on July 18, 2021, 09:27:09 amExactly, I totally agree with you! It's time to make a good compromise between price, performance and my expectation on the scope.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2021, 10:05:31 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on July 18, 2021, 09:27:09 amAgain fear and uncertainty campaign.. SDS2000X+ scopes are as stable (or better) as big brands..

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2021, 10:11:14 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on July 18, 2021, 09:32:20 amIt is not about whatHE uses.If he is going to make a educational curriculum, then he has to showas much as he can (within reasonable limits)whatmodern scopes can do.So he should have scopes withsupersetof abilities,not smaller subset.If they add features asked, and segments, than it would be clear winner in it's price range. And as owner of one, I would be delighted if the do so. But many things were requested as far as 2-3 years ago and never happened. They created new, more expensive 2ch model with segments (that is still not implemented in usable way), so I'l believe it when I see it.And unless someone here is part of their development process, we cannot know what exactly they are working on.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2021, 10:58:40 am
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on July 18, 2021, 10:11:14 amI would have thought the most important thing was to teach engineering students how to use the available equipment tosolve their problem.I would have thought the worst thing would be to have students spend time learning whichbuttons to pushononetool that will beobsoletein a couple of years and which theiremployer won't have. See Isaac Asimov's "Profession".

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2021, 11:04:49 am
content: Quote from: tggzzz on July 18, 2021, 10:58:40 amNeither is true! The aim of an education is to get a basic understanding of the tools used in the trade and recognise a tool is sufficient for the job or not (*). From what I have seen is that educational scopes are usually dumbed down -training wheels so to say- so students don't get lost in a sea of options & settings that don't make sense to them (yet). In that perspective there is a lot to say to get a Tektronix TBS2000 or one of the Keysight educational scopes. Simple & to the point.* Making do with available tools which aren't up to the task is the worst waste of time and effort. Especially when taking the cost of an engineer into account. The most profitable & succesfull companies I worked for didn't skimp on getting the right tools when needed.Quote from: 2N3055 on July 18, 2021, 10:05:31 amGiven the long thread about bugs & missing features, I'm quite sure I can find several bugs using my rigourous oscilloscope testing method even with the latest firmware.

author: Noy
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2021, 11:07:13 am
content: Why not staying with Rigol and ging up to MSO5k series.?

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2021, 11:34:48 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on July 18, 2021, 11:04:49 amThat might be true for technicans, but not for engineers. N.B. both are needed, just as we need both doctors and nurses.All the places I have worked have questioned interviewees understanding of fundamentals, and presumed that if they know those they can learn whatever tool they need for the job - whichwon'tbe ones they have used in university.QuoteVery true.But an important skill is being able toknowwhy one (cheap) tool is insufficent a task, but another (expensive) tool is required - or vice versa. After all, an engineer is someone that can do for £1 what any fool can do for £2. Failure to be able to do that can be the difference between a project being approved or abandoned.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2021, 12:07:24 pm
content: One other comment on the web interface. If you're coming from the Rigol 1054Z, the Siglent WebIF will blow your mind. I also started at the 1054Z, and I hated it. It was painfully slow. I upgraded to the Siglent SDS1104X-E, and it was lightyears ahead. The Siglent was in a significantly higher class. There's videos out there comparing the network speed of those two models, and the Rigol was basically DOA. All that said, the 2104X+ is much faster than the WebIF on the 1104X-E. I sent that video of my 2104X+ to a friend that has the SDS2202X-E, and he was surprised how much faster the WebIF was than his model too.Thanks,Josh

author: Markus2801A
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2021, 12:30:55 pm
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on July 18, 2021, 12:07:24 pmYes I think buying the DS1054Z was a waste of money. I should have make the bigger step directly to the higher priced models.Regarding the WebIf its sounds great!

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2021, 12:43:18 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on July 18, 2021, 11:34:48 amSometimes you have to make do with what you got, and if you can than that is what separates you from the rest of the herd. Sure in an enterprise where there is enough money they can buy the right equipment, but having worked at a foundation where the budget was tight I used what ever was available to solve a problem. Learn to think outside the box is a good tool.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2021, 12:52:06 pm
content: Quote from: pcprogrammer on July 18, 2021, 12:43:18 pmPrecisely!That's so important I put that aphorism in my .sigIt is even important where money is no object. As a trivial example, what scope should use if your task is to build the worlds fastest scope?

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2021, 01:03:33 pm
content: Yeah, that is a tricky one. You need to build it before you can use it to build it

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2021, 01:10:42 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on July 18, 2021, 10:01:19 amEw!Google produced a nicer copy:https://www.inf.ufpr.br/renato/profession.html

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2021, 01:38:47 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on July 18, 2021, 01:10:42 pmAaaaahhhh! <sound of contentment as breath is expelled>Thanks for that - makes it much easier to speed read to see the plot point that is as valid and relevant as in 1957. Good stuff is timeless.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2021, 02:00:58 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on July 18, 2021, 10:58:40 amI agree with you in principle.But that is going to depend more on quality and scope of curriculum, than with what I said. Not all classes are for graduate students of EE.If it is "Use of digital scopes" class for technicians, which button to push is almost the scope of teaching. You try to abstract out scope brand, but you pretty much explain what scopes can do for you.Statistics on scopes is with us for 30 years, FFT and math also... They are not going anywhere. Showing how they are used in a context and teaching that type of measurement has nothing to do with scope brand.As for a legendary Asimov's story, I pretty much read everything he ever wrote so long ago that I probably forgot most. But I remember that story, and as any work of Asimov's genius, it has layers. Many different people get different meanings and lessons from the same story. You probably associate with George (being creative type) and resonate with his view. Me too. But there are other lessons there.. Important one is that 99.999 % people will be tape technicians. To project that on this problem, most of the time you make instructions for THEM. Not for the likes of Feynman...So lessons will be pretty much about "what to do in which case" instead of "let me give you theory of measurement and teach you how to think". That is not perfect and not what I like either, but a simple reality.My point was: simplistic scope cannot produce some more advanced lessons. Regardless of lessons being for technicians where it is "FFT is used for frequency analysis.." followed by rules of thumb how to set it to see harmonics on power line , or an undergrad course "use of FFT to analyse modes of resonance of beam as induced by mechanical pulse and it's mathematical limits".And I agree with you on "Doing more with less" 100%. As a kid, in former Yugoslavia, I barely could have a decent multimeter (moving coil) and decent soldering iron. Scope was available for companies and defense industry, not for private use. It wasn't even the matter of money (salaries where almost at BRD level in good times before things going south) but it simply wasn't available for private use.. And importing it was also a problem. So I learned to use all kinds of signal tracers, and improvised tools, made many specialist instruments myself... Also spent more time studying schematics, to try to figure out how it works, to try to logically conclude what is wrong, and how to verify it with (very little) instruments I had. It gave me better insight into circuit theory, and better intuitive understanding. And for people pushing the cutting edge, doing research etc. it is important.But there are people that just want to repair Apple motherboards, and scope might help them with that. And they don't care WHY output of the switcher has that funny shape they never saw before. They know (or have documentation) how it should look, and they are happy now they know it is this power supply that is causing problems. They desolder it, chuck it in bin and solder in a new one.Happy with the job well done.While you and me would carefully try to figure out how on earth signal is going negative when it shouldn't and wouldn't be happy until we at least have a working theory..Regards,

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2021, 02:26:39 pm
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on July 18, 2021, 02:00:58 pmI agree completely - and even made that distinction in a later post in reply to nctnicoIf "which button to push is ... the scope of teaching", then Asimov's story is directly relevant! It is easier to abstract out the controls if all the controls are on the front panel and have a standard name. Less easy if the control is buried somewhere and same name is used for something slightly different. (Worst case I came across was a digitising scope where the vertical sensitivity was labelled "cal"; tookmea while to work that out!)QuoteJust so. IMHO if it was a choice between just being told that such operations are possible, exclusive-or spending a lot of time on button pushing, I'd choose the former.QuoteYes indeedMy post was giving a counter example to a post that avoided making your important distinction.QuoteAgain, yes (this is becoming a tedious mutual-support society)Growing up here in a relatively affluent family, I only had a soldering iron and multimeter. I used that plus switches and LEDs (and nail varnish for PCB resist) to design, make and debug my first computer containing a massive 128bytes of RAM. (Think Altair-8080 except it was a 6800 that cost a week's wages). It was a pig's ear, but I learned alotand it was very helpful getting me multiple offers for my first job.At the time I was jealous of those with all the fancy equipment, but in retrospect not having it was better for me in the long term.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2021, 06:39:30 pm
content: Quote from: pcprogrammer on July 18, 2021, 12:43:18 pmAll the chest beating aside: tell me this... would you rather spend time on developing something new or solve problems which already have been solved? Making do with inadequate equipment is solving problems which already have been solved. Nothing more, nothing less. A good engineer should recognise this and a good employer should make a sound choice based on economics whether they buy / rent gear or let the engineer make do. Having no budget at all is no excuse; after all they can pay the salaries as well. Spending a couple of hundred to rent a piece of equipment for a month which shortens the engineering time needed by a couple of weeks and / or verifies the design is solid (and thus reducing the risk of needing to do a recall / field updates) is a no-brainer.Personally I would not accept a situation where there is a chronic lack of test equipment to do my job (although I have to admit that I have brought my own test gear in to get a problem solved quickly on many occasions). I prefer to concentrate / work on new engineering problems, not problems for which there is already a solution. New engineering problems are way more interesting.

author: tv84
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2021, 06:53:45 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on July 18, 2021, 06:39:30 pmWith that phrase, you should rest your case.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2021, 07:13:08 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on July 18, 2021, 06:39:30 pmWe discussed this many times before, and both agree that in professional (production type) environment it makes sense to buy very expensive equipmentif that is going to help make money. Although super sophisticated equipment is no replacement for en engineer that knows how to think.But I agree with Tggzzz, that necessity is mother of invention, and while learning, it sometimes deepens the knowledge to make do with less, to make you think hard about all kinds of inventive ways to solve the problems, be it by advanced analysis, by making your own instruments etc...All three of us are older school that started when, even if you had scope, it was stupid "scribbles on the screen" CRT scopes without anything. Fancy ones had readout cursors. And even NASA had to do with that. So we all learned "the hard way", the whole generations. If NASA had stupid little Rigol DS1000Z 30 years back it would be classified higher than nuclear weapons.So you probably can't even imagine how and why new gens are "understanding" some things we take for granted. My son is soon to finish his masters in EE, and every few days he comes home either laughing hard or completely confused by things his fellow students don't understand. He has been working with me for many years now, and I taught him most of that old school stuff, from transistors, to analog hardcore stuff. They actually had very advanced classes on analog electronics, but he was one of few that really understood it. Because I challenged him to think about it like I did. And it worked.But when we work together, on a paid work, yes, we use all 4-5 scopes we have and all the equipment we can.When I tech him something, we usually start with everything off, empty desk and piece of paper and pencil. And escalate from there, to using 2 AWGS and 4 scopes and all instrument I have if need be.. But thinking first.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2021, 07:19:06 pm
content: Quote from: tv84 on July 18, 2021, 06:53:45 pmIf you agree that having suitable equipment available helps to solve a problem quickly, then yes. My former employers just got lucky they hired someone with GAS and a keen eye for a good test equipment deal.

author: Markus2801A
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2021, 07:35:47 pm
content: Thanks for all your opinions! This topic also went very deep into how society has changed, different point of views etc.I want to additionally bring in an other scope which I had not in my list:Keysight DSOX1204Gapprox. 1.300€Sturdy and reliable but "overpriced?Very good interface and WebIF works also well!"only" 70MHz (as far as I know, not easy to upgrade without breaking warranty etc. so this is not an option I would be stuck at 70Mhz)FFT slow so I would have to do it via PC-Software (Labplot2 the only freeware which was able to deliver real satisfying results which I also was able to mathematically re-calculate - yes the long way but its important to make it clear to my students how FFT works!)What are your opinions?I think this is the last Scope I take into consideration before I'm going to order tomorrow the Siglent (or should I go for the Keysight?) - to bring this to an end :-)

author: tv84
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2021, 07:45:17 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on July 18, 2021, 07:19:06 pmNo question about that. By all your past reasoning, YOUR EMPLOYER should have provided you with all the tools you need and shouldn't expect you to have a nice BYOD scope or you were hired for your procurement skills? I would say no but...I agree with tggzzz/sinisa. Using an improvised or make-do tool, when you don't have the proper tool, is not solving problems that have already been solved. It's precisely solving one for which the engineer has no other solution.In a learning environment, having to "invent" a way tosuccessfully make dowithout the proper tool is one of the fundamental things from which one can gain much knowledge/experience.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2021, 07:55:50 pm
content: Quote from: Markus2801A on July 18, 2021, 07:35:47 pmMicsig is literally more powerful scope than that Keysight. From Keysight, anything less than 3000 series is not smart buy...If you have 1300 € buy Siglent SDS2000X+. If you're short for money, go with Micsig, because it has features that are good for presentation and type of work you plan to do with it.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2021, 07:56:33 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on July 18, 2021, 06:39:30 pmAll the test gear in the world won't help if the engineers don't know the theory of operation.How do you learn the theory operation? The best way is to have less functions and have to get creative.Once you're employed at some company you'll be in a much better position than somebody who didn't go through that process.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2021, 08:18:16 pm
content: Very true, fungus.Not necessary for technicians that are told what to do, but very true for engineers that have to work out what to do and how to do it.

author: tv84
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2021, 08:34:16 pm
content: Quote from: Markus2801A on July 18, 2021, 07:35:47 pmMarkus, stop. You have in this thread,some of the best guys in the worldin comparing this range of equipments (me excluded!).If any information is missing, it's also spread all over the forum in hundreds of threads like this and include all the specific models that you might imagine. Nonetheless, none of them suggested any better options than the ones you've read here.So, now it's your turn. Put on your engineer hat and buy the best tool (features/price) that fits your max budget.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2021, 10:54:33 pm
content: ... But don't forget to include the cost of the probes tosafelydo the jobThat,of course implies you are teaching them how a scope can endanger the operator's life, if they don't understand the theory of what's in a scope's front end

author: AaronLee
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 19, 2021, 02:52:28 am
content: I just went through a similar researching of the various scopes in that price range during the past two weeks, and using the very useful information in this forum, decided on the Siglent SDS2104X Plus for myself. I just got it and only played around with it for a bit, but so far I'm very pleased with my decision.

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 19, 2021, 05:52:30 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on July 18, 2021, 06:39:30 pmOthers have wrote this too, but since you quoted me, I will put in my 5 cents worth. When I entered the working world back in the early 80's we had to make due with what was available. Computers where just starting to become more and more usable, but that aside.If you create a problem that already has a solution, than you did not do your job properly. Research would have learned you not to create that problem. I myself do not have a college education, just mid level electronics. Trained myself over the years. During my life I encountered enough college educated people though that where not up to the task, so for me such an education says nothing about the quality of an engineer.When I run into a problem, the first thing I do is think about it, not reach for any test equipment just yet. Only after fully analyzing it I will try to get the right tool for the job. And that is what they should teach in schools, not just cram in facts and theory.

author: scoper007
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 19, 2021, 06:22:31 am
content: Micsig's STO1104E smart scope, IMO, the best entry-level and scope by far. Android based, internet access, full touch screen, always a good choice for students who are used to using tablets and smartphones. give it a try!

author: Markus2801A
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 19, 2021, 06:27:53 am
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on July 18, 2021, 07:55:50 pmI totally agree with you, Keysight is overpriced as R&S and als Tektronix are. They have good reputation and deliver very good devices, but the price doesn't justify the performance you get today from them!Quote from: tv84 on July 18, 2021, 08:34:16 pmAs always your so right. I'm searching for a device which isn't available today. Lets say a R&S with their quality of operation and GUI etc. mixed with all good features of Keysight, the touchdisplay and in the price range of the Siglent Series. Its just my dream.So two types leftMicSigorSiglent?Quote from: AaronLee on July 19, 2021, 02:52:28 am-->Siglent:-)Everything and everybody points to it. I just should go that route! THANKS!Or maybe both in future?Quote from: tggzzz on July 18, 2021, 10:54:33 pmExactly so many times it have been also stated here, that you have to know what an how to do.I learned an "Austrian" phrase from my teacher "wer misst, misst Mist" - not easy to translate but it means that you should be aware how to measure and if you can trust the results, how measurement effects the whole DUT etc.I try to teach that to my students, not to trust the on screen display results "blindly". They have to know how to interpret the results etc.Also take into consideration the whole equipment like probes etc and how they effect the whole measurement setup. Measuring with an scope is indeed very complex if you want to be done right.So again thanks to you all for your help!!! I really appreciate our conversation here!

author: AaronLee
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 19, 2021, 06:33:50 am
content: Quote from: Markus2801A on July 19, 2021, 06:27:53 amI took a long hard look comparing Siglent and MicSig. When visiting the company's websites, MicSig's website really didn't give me any confidence. It just looked amateurish to me. While a company's website may not necessarily reflect on the quality of their products, it ended up putting lots of doubt in my mind. Furthermore, they're very limited product range, and only two channels on their state-of-the art scopes made me think they really aren't in the same league as Siglent. I know some will disagree, but that's just my personal opinion based on comparing the two during the past two weeks. I did like the form factor of the MicSigs, and there were other things that I liked. I just wished they'd been a more established company with a broader product line and more professional website/materials.

author: Markus2801A
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 19, 2021, 06:34:51 am
content: Quote from: scoper007 on July 19, 2021, 06:22:31 amOn my wishlist for an additional device or replacement of may Rigol DS1054Z.But I have to do more research on how much more benefit I would get from the Micsig compared to the DS1054Z!?At this moment I think the Siglent SDS2104X Plus is the way to go. Best bang for the buck, hits almost all my points on my wishlist/demand list.Yes if I had the money (2k5 or more I would go for the RTB200x Series) but at this price ranges such scopes are not relevant to consider for me because in that case I could even think spending more money e.g. 3k5 on Keysight`s or R&S 3000Series etc. But IMHO they are not worth the money for a private person like me.

author: Markus2801A
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 19, 2021, 06:38:26 am
content: Quote from: AaronLee on July 19, 2021, 06:33:50 amExactly what I was thinking. The website today should be a little bit more professional. I think If they are developing Scopes, why don't they have on person or hire someone to program the Website correctly in a modern way today.The comparison site doesn't work well. I think the scopes are good, but the website is crap, sorry for that!Maybe the next releases of their line will feature a new mature version of their entry level product line?But yes I think as an alternative to the Rigol DS1054Z/DS1104Z Series it may be okay?

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 19, 2021, 08:29:16 am
content: Quote from: Markus2801A on July 19, 2021, 06:27:53 amExcellent!That attitude is one that people need to learnearly on, before they get into lazy/bad habits.IMNSHO that is more valuable than knowing a scope's advanced capabilities; those rapidly change and will be (re)learned on any job.

author: tv84
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 19, 2021, 08:33:06 am
content: Quote from: Markus2801A on July 19, 2021, 06:34:51 amLet your students show you that in the near future.You buy the Siglent and you let them go the Micsig way (for now) and with that you'll see both worlds. Then you'll be in the teacher position of totally knowing both sides with hands-on experience.PS: Did I tell you that I had promised myself I wouldn't add any more post...

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 19, 2021, 08:35:57 am
content: Quote from: tggzzz on July 19, 2021, 08:29:16 amAnd more blinkenlights makes that more difficult to teach, not easier..

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 19, 2021, 08:37:42 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on July 19, 2021, 08:35:57 amSo very true

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 19, 2021, 08:44:23 am
content: Quote from: Markus2801A on July 19, 2021, 06:27:53 amYep. No oscilloscope shows youexactlywhat's happening in the circuit.This is easily demonstrated by showing the difference between looking at the output of (eg.) an Arduino pin using an ordinary probe with/without the spring clip.This isn't something that you can show using a fancy function generator, etc.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 19, 2021, 08:51:08 am
content: Quote from: Markus2801A on July 19, 2021, 06:27:53 amI have three things to add to this:1) What is on the screen of an oscilloscope is not the actual signal in the majority of the cases. Nice demonstrations are ringing introduced by the ground lead, picking up noise through the ground lead and loading a signal too much with a probe.2) Teach you students to validate their test setup before starting to make measurements on their project. A while ago some junior engineers at one of my customers got caught by a bug in a piece of test equipment (from Siglent) which caused them to run in circles for a week before I asked them to validate their test setup (IOW: take their project out of the loop).3) Divide and conquer: divide complex measurement problems in smaller chunks and measure each chunk individually.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 19, 2021, 09:05:55 am
content: Quote from: tggzzz on July 19, 2021, 08:29:16 amI think we have misunderstanding here. He is not selling scopes, nor anybody wants him to demonstrate some brand's implementation of some measurement.I agree that in entry level course you shouldn't teach them how to do FRA plots as a first thing, or something like that. But there are many things that became basic stuff like measurements, measurement statistics, math channels ( you show them basic math like multiplying channels, even CRTs had that), FFT etc..None of that are advanced capabilities by today's standard. By that token he shouldn't be using Micisg either: It has filtering and arbitrary math formula math channel and protocol decoding..He is buying scope for HIM to make curriculum materials. Trick is to make his work easier, and what he will be teaching his pupils is a matter of curriculum choice. By getting more than basic scope, he will be in a position to make entry level and advanced course, and also to show them how modern instruments work, and even show glimpse to higher end equipment, so they know it exists. While I repeatedly said I'm with you on teaching pupils to think, I see and hear all the time how education doesn't make them ready for real work in real world. In real work, they won't be given CRT scope, and boos won't tell them :" here, son, take your time, as much as you like, to understand this problem, and then I want to you find a way how you can do frequency response sweep on this amplifier. An in few weeks let me know how did you do..". No, they will sit them in front of Audio Precision audio analyser (that has 850 pages manual), and tell them they want a full frequency response characterisation at small signal and full power by the end of the day.... In that case fact that you know the theory won't help.Truth is that you need to teach them BOTH the thinking part and instrument operation part. And if your class is "Scope usage and operation" and they have separate class "Amplifier theory" maybe that other professor is tasked with the thinking part...

author: Markus2801A
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 19, 2021, 07:07:38 pm
content: Good News everybody!I ordered the siglent from batronix today!it has already been shipped and should arrive within a few daysas im on holiday til thursday it will have to wait for me till im home. ill share my first impressions with you.thanks again to you all!

author: egonotto
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 19, 2021, 08:39:07 pm
content: Hello,good decision. Have fun with your new mate.Best regardsegonotto

author: AaronLee
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 20, 2021, 01:29:34 am
content: Quote from: Markus2801A on July 19, 2021, 07:07:38 pmCongratulations. Hope you enjoy it.

author: tv84
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 20, 2021, 09:21:04 am
content: Another satisfied customer..."Next!!!"

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 20, 2021, 11:00:25 am
content: Quote from: tv84 on July 20, 2021, 09:21:04 amLOL!!

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 20, 2021, 11:22:09 am
content: Quote from: tv84 on July 20, 2021, 09:21:04 amWell there he ishttps://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/recommendation-on-scope-is-there-a-recent-list-on-gear/

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 20, 2021, 12:10:28 pm
content: Quote from: pcprogrammer on July 20, 2021, 11:22:09 amAlready being served...

author: richmit
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 21, 2021, 02:15:30 pm
content: Quote from: Markus2801A on July 17, 2021, 08:39:10 amThe SDS2000X+ others have suggested has a built in VNC server. This allows you to connect to the scope with something like RealVNC viewer, and see a live view of the scope display on your computer. I bring this up because using a VNC viewer full screen is a super easy way to make movies of the scope for your students -- useful for demonstrating dynamic signals, XY-mode, etc...I don't know what other scopes offer VNC -- I only have experience with the SDS2000X+ series.-mitchPS: Fun fact: the web interface on the SDS2000X+ actually makes use of the VNC server data inside the web interface.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 21, 2021, 02:43:28 pm
content: Quote from: richmit on July 21, 2021, 02:15:30 pmThat's cool! I've got to try that out. I usually use the windows gamebar BS to capture videos (like the one I posted previously).Does VNC capture at the full-screen viewer resolution, or is it saving the source resolution?Thanks,Josh

author: richmit
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 21, 2021, 04:28:27 pm
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on July 21, 2021, 02:43:28 pmFIX: Sorry. That should be 600 not 640 -- I had VGA on the brain.By default the VNC window is the size of the source -- so it will be 1024x640 for the SDS. VNC will scale the window content if you resize, but for making a move I keep it the native size of the source.I just happen to be working on something that makes a interesting XY display, so I can give you an example.In the screenshot below you can see in the upper left the VNC window -- I have a QHD display so it's pretty small. I use VLC to make screen movies because it works on Windows & Linux. The VLC windows are in the center of the screen. To the right is a capture of the VNC window, and to the left is the dialog box configuring that capture. You access this dialog from the "Media" menu and selecting "Open Capture Device". Then you select "Desktop" in "Capture Mode" at the top. In this case I have added advanced options at the bottom to tell VLC the rectangle I want to capture. In this case I positioned the VNC window on the upper left, and told VLC to capture a rectangle 1024x640 pixels in size starting at the left edge of the screen and 36 pixels down (I don't want the windows border in my movie). You should set the FPS (frames per second) to a value that matches the application).You can do all the VLC stuff from the command line which is pretty cool.-mitchPS: I have never attached an image to a post. Hopefully I did it correctly!

author: mawyatt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 21, 2021, 04:36:24 pm
content: Looks like a Chua Diode voltage and current XY plot spiraling around the Lorentz Attractors.Best,

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 21, 2021, 04:57:29 pm
content: Quote from: richmit on July 21, 2021, 04:28:27 pmAh, that sounds cool for situations where the full-screen capture isn't as simple. It's definitely more steps than hitting "windows key and G" in Win10 and hitting the record button to capture stuff like this at full HD:https://youtu.be/5rHdDBE1T6MOn Mac it's "Shift, Command, and 5" but I haven't tried it there yet. My Mac is in a different room than my workbench, so it's pretty rare I use it for that sort of thing...other than because I can.Thanks,Josh

author: richmit
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 21, 2021, 05:07:40 pm
content: Quote from: mawyatt on July 21, 2021, 04:36:24 pmIt is a Lorenz attractor.My bench is a mess right now, but I included a pic anyhow. The top board solves the Lorenz system system -- circuit from "The Art of Electronics". The X, Y, & Z values are shifted & scaled -- the three boards with knobs in front. Then the results are rotated around two axes by an analog matrix multiplication -- the second and third boards from the top. The cosine & sine values come from a DAC on board 4 -- the DAC output is scaled and shifted to be 15V p-p centered on zero. The DAC & angle display are driven by that MSP430 board in the background under all the wires.-mitch

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 21, 2021, 08:37:10 pm
content: An old thread that might be of interest Mitch:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/t20347/

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 21, 2021, 08:44:20 pm
content: Quote from: richmit on July 21, 2021, 02:15:30 pmThis is coming soon:Support network storage

author: mawyatt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 21, 2021, 10:59:02 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on July 21, 2021, 08:37:10 pmNeat stuff!!! Another from LTspice. This technique was used in ~1990 as an analog encryptor, the Lorenz attractors were the keys.https://groups.io/g/LTspice/topic/73978670#120229https://groups.io/g/LTspice/album?id=246489Best

author: mawyatt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 21, 2021, 11:13:48 pm
content: Quote from: richmit on July 21, 2021, 05:07:40 pmIs that circuit from Michael Kennedy? My Art and Zverev Filter books have been displaced, likely on one of my former colleagues desk nowNo worries about the messy workbench, that shows you are doing something, rather than trying to look neat and tidyHere's the circuit used in the LTspice simulations.Best,

author: richmit
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 21, 2021, 11:59:37 pm
content: Quote from: mawyatt on July 21, 2021, 11:13:48 pmI have been reading "A Concise Guide to Chaotic Electronic Circuits" by Buscarino, Fortuna, Frasca, & Sciuto.I simulated that very circuit a few weeks ago -- well super close anyhow. The simulation made a beautiful picture, but then I tried to build it and failed completely. I just didn't have an inductor in the bin that would do the job. So I ended up using a couple op-amps to fake the inductor.

author: wizard69
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2021, 01:31:32 am
content: Congratulations on your new scope!I was going to suggest going with Tek and be forever happy! Yes a bit more money but worth it for professional use. As for funding, maybe a grant or a go fund me page.

author: mawyatt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2021, 01:37:34 am
content: Quote from: richmit on July 21, 2021, 11:59:37 pmIf you read one of the links over on LTspice I mentioned how we used a Gyrator to emulate an inductor back in ~1990, worked beautifully. Wish I could have received funding back then, but no luck. A few years later MIT posted a paper on an Analog Encryptor based on this concept and our original work was forever lostRan into an unintended chaotic circuit once, a colleague was having trouble with a switch-mode power supply producing an output random type ripple. Took a look at the scope waveform and knew right away what this represented.BTW the Chua Diode is from the same Dr Chua that proposed the memresistor back in ~1970......brilliant researcher indeed!!I better be quite now, since I've diverted the thread away from the new Siglent scopeBest,

author: Markus2801A
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2021, 07:52:15 am
content: Back to the Siglent SDS2000X Plus Topic :-)As I promised I will give u my first impressions/feedback when im back from holiday.Yesterday mySiglent SDS2104X Plusarrived (as we did, returning from holiday) :-)I was able to unpack and do some first hands on with it :-)Looks very promising and great!Build quality feels very good, buttons operate pricesly, GUI and Operation: I think as with verey device you have to get yourself familiar with the operation but it is IMHO very logically and I think I will get much more familar over time when using it :-)Almos everything is permanently activated right out of the box :-)Thanks to special offer from Batronix. The only licenses which are only for 30 "times" activated are "MSO, SENT & MANCH" which I dont need since there are some protocoll decoding featers I dont use.I did "liberate" the scope following this via SCPI command MCBD <generated key from script> command, entered in Siglents WebIf - great! Yes, I dont need it but I wanted it :-) I also know the provided 200MHz probes where identified by USER maxspb69 to have 350MHz of real bandwidth :-). THANKS!Quote from: maxspb69 on February 21, 2021, 05:31:43 pmAs stated in the original thread you have to go from 100MHz > 200MHz > 350MHz to finally 500MHz (in the options menu it will display first time: 4BW02, than after applying the keys 4BW03, than 4BW05 and after last 500MHz kay the 4BW05 entry is gone!)Quote from: Zaphod1 on December 14, 2020, 12:19:13 pmSo for now, I have to spend more time with this great device!I will attach some Images, as you can see the Scope now shows its a SDS2504X PlusThanks to all for your opinions, and for sure it will not be the last Scope I will buy :-)So I will return with this topic in ... years :-)

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2021, 08:11:15 am
content: Nice.Usage hints.Menus come set to 3s autohide which is far too quick as a first experience and in Display you can make an autohide setting best suited to your use case although autohide OFF is fine too as if you touch or mouse click any vacant zone on the display menus will hide on command.When a menu is up showing a blue line on the right edge signifies the menu can be scrolled down to access further items which you can of course do with touch but it's much quicker with a mouse.Come back for more help/tips if you need them.

author: mawyatt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2021, 02:27:41 pm
content: Markus,The more time you spend with these SDS2000X + scopes the more you appreciate the superb instruments they are, that was my take away since this was the 1st MSO or DSO I have purchased for myself. Also had not used a DSO or MSO much at all when working, since my value was deemed outside the lab, but after retiring wanted more "hands on" so got a couple old Tek 2465 analog scopes to fix and use. Earlier last year pulled the trigger on a SDS2000X + based all the discussions here, figuring I needed something to record waveforms better than a iPhone image of the Tek 2465 display. I had never heard of Siglent, but went ahead with the purchase after spending time here to decipher the sources of all the comments, the fan folks, BSers, haters, and so on. Once you get a hand on the comment source, then things become much easier to navigate thru, and the path much clearer.This is by far the most useful and feature rich instrument I had ever used, my poor old Tek 2465s don't even get powered on anymore!! The more use, the more impressedTry a wireless mouse, works seamlessly with the GUI, the 10 bit mode, the FFT, the Bode plot and so on. The front end design is spot on, with low noise, good bandwidth & linearity, and good accuracy, which sets the "tone" for the rest of the instrument.You navigated the path and made a good decision IMOBTW you probably can tell I'm a Siglent fan, yes, but only because I have hands on experience and don't bash other equipment that I've never used or owned. Also will point to issues with Siglent, like the failed PP215 scope probe, or the issues with the SPD 3303X-EEdit: Should mention we now have 2 of these scopes, 1st was a 2 channel (the 4 channel was unavailable). I got a 1st hand introduction to the innards of the 2 channel due to an unfortunate (long story) accident, and got another pleasant surprise. This instrument not only performed like something that should cost 2~3X, but the build quality looks like something that should cost 2~3XBest,