Raspberry Pi400 announced today - already practically sold out... - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Bicurico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 02, 2020, 05:33:12 pm
content: Hi,There is a new Raspberry Pi, the Pi400. It looks like a homecomputer: a keyboard with built-in Raspberry Pi. But it has a new PCB layout and uses a slightly different controller, which can be overclocked (= run at a higher speed, not really "overclocked" in the traditional sense, from what I understood).I think this will be a great platform for emulation of 80ies home computers, because it is sexy to have a keyboard with all required ports at the back.https://www.raspberrypi.org/blog/raspberry-pi-400-the-70-desktop-pc/https://www.jeffgeerling.com/blog/2020/raspberry-pi-400-teardown-and-reviewRegards,Vitor

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 02, 2020, 09:35:39 pm
content: They call it $70, but literally everyone was selling it at $100.They should really cut that crap out with lower than actual prices in the headlines.The thing itself is interesting. More so at $70 than $100, but even at $100, it is fine, but I'll wait the first wave.To be fair, it looks like at least some (not all of them, for sure) places were actually selling a kit with a book and some other hardware. But still, if you advertise something for $70, have a way for people to get it for $70.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 02, 2020, 10:30:38 pm
content: Pretty impressive they can push that little ARM up to 1.8GHz now. I like the added cooling solution for sustained usage. That SoC is going to start pumping out some serious watts if under sustained desktop usage.

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 02, 2020, 10:47:58 pm
content: Hey they actually used a polarized/shrouded header, nice!Quote from: ataradov on November 02, 2020, 09:35:39 pmI found it available:https://www.canakit.com/raspberry-pi-400.htmlbut like with the regular pi, sellers play games and try to add in components or hide it behind a kit version, as you say.

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 02, 2020, 10:53:04 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on November 02, 2020, 10:30:38 pmIn a tear-down vid, the guy seems more worried about the ethernet chip if one were to use the thing as a NAS.https://www.eevblog.com/forum/embedded-computing/raspberry-pi-400-teardown-(video)/msg3308163/#new

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 02, 2020, 11:01:28 pm
content: Quote from: thm_w on November 02, 2020, 10:47:58 pmThis is good. But it looks like the only keyboard type they have is with a bit inverted Enter key. Or that's just the picture they have. It is not clear.

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 02, 2020, 11:08:15 pm
content: Quote from: ataradov on November 02, 2020, 11:01:28 pmOoh. The enter key looks like an abomination.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 02, 2020, 11:29:13 pm
content: I can see that being a very compact office computer, and since it's a Pi 4, able to handle a bit more than basic office work. It can do some basic photo editing and maybe even some light CAD work would run acceptably well.Personally, what I would like to see is a tablet based on the Pi Compute Module 4 or other fast and relatively cheap ARM platform. If it has high resolution pen input, it would cover basically every use case I have for a tablet.Quote from: Ed.Kloonk on November 02, 2020, 10:53:04 pmChoosing the keyboard version of the Pi 4 for a NAS would be really odd. The regular Pi 4 would be a better fit, or some other low power ARM platform that has native SATA would be even better.

author: pickle9000
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 03, 2020, 12:02:22 am
content: That really reminds me of a VIC 20.I'm not putting it down it's a compliment.

author: pickle9000
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 03, 2020, 12:16:23 am
content: Micro hdmi should be banned

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 03, 2020, 12:23:25 am
content: Quote from: Ed.Kloonk on November 02, 2020, 11:08:15 pmThis is a European version. There are like 7 different keyboard layouts, but sellers don't bother to specify what they are selling exactly.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 03, 2020, 01:19:59 am
content: Chiclet keyboard? No thanks.Quote from: pickle9000 on November 03, 2020, 12:02:22 amIt is more like a Coco (Tandy TRS-80). The VIC-20 had a better keyboard.

author: pickle9000
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 03, 2020, 01:54:02 am
content: Quote from: David Hess on November 03, 2020, 01:19:59 amThe Coco was really crap, and I sold them back in the day. Ah yes the 7% commission when sales was a thing.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 03, 2020, 02:58:03 am
content: Quote from: pickle9000 on November 03, 2020, 12:16:23 amThere's plenty of room for a regular HDMI so they should have put one there. Maybe a regular HDMI and a micro HDMI so it will be compatible with both. Or a regular HDMI and a DisplayPort.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 03, 2020, 04:10:39 am
content: Quote from: ataradov on November 02, 2020, 09:35:39 pmI completely agree there. I'm a big fan of the Raspberry Pi series and have used quite a few of them, but the price claims drive me nuts. The Pi Zero was advertised as a $5 computer but even years after it came out I have never seen anywhere you can actually buy one for $5, mine have all cost at least $10 once I paid shipping, and it was always limit of one per order so it's not like I could buy 10 of them shipped in the same package. The original RPis were advertised as $35 computers IIRC but everyone was charging more than that.I don't really see the appeal of this integrated keyboard thing though. It looks like a cheap crappy netbook keyboard, I've already got plenty of good quality keyboards, I could build a RPi into one if I really wanted to, but if I was going to use on in a desktop type environment with a keyboard I'd rather just stick the RPi to the back of the monitor or somewhere else out of the way than build it into the keyboard itself. As it is none of the RPis I have in service have keyboards attached, they're all either headless machines accessed over LAN or in one case my media player which has an IR remote.

author: jklasdf
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 03, 2020, 05:55:11 am
content: I'm glad they added a large-ish heat sink also for the $70. I don't think there's really a great way to get the heat out of the case given the form factor, and it'll probably still throttle under load, but should be better than the regular Pi 4.Micro-HDMI is annoying, especially since people are more likely to actually need HDMI output given the form factor. It looks like there should be room for at least one full-size HDMI if they stacked the USB connectors, but maybe there wasn't room? The entire raspberry pi line is definitely built down to a price though also, so maybe that's also part of it (not having two different HDMI connectors).

author: newbrain
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 03, 2020, 08:32:54 am
content: Quote from: David Hess on November 03, 2020, 01:19:59 amOr, maybe...a Newbrain?

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 03, 2020, 08:55:40 am
content: Quote from: ataradov on November 02, 2020, 09:35:39 pmWhy? It has been their strategy fromday one, the whole thing literallystartedwith bait-and-switch: "open source SBC for $30". What you really got was fully closed-source, DRM'd, anti-opensource hardware for $45.Their business model is based on lying, conning, and limiting the users in every way imaginable. But it's clearly working - why change it?

author: Bicurico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 03, 2020, 10:40:17 am
content: I bought my bare Pi 400 for £67 + £5 for international shipping. That's £72 or €83.50.I think this is what they claimed ("under £70") and I am more than pleased with this price.It is the full kit that costs £100. It just adds a monitor cable, a mouse, as 16GB(!) SD card and a PSU. £30 for these extras is not excessively expensive, but not cheap either. I already have all required accessories, so no need to buy the kit.I don't really understand the complaints. Yes with the Pi Zero it was impossible to get one for £5, but then, at this price the demand was just to big. I mean, at £5 I would right now buy like 10 just to have them around and ready for whatever application I might come across. Multiply this to all potential customers in the world and there would never be enough stock... And the foundation thus had to limit each purchase to one unit. Plus they don't make profit out of shipping. I agree, the situation sucks, but it could hardly be improved, I guess, especially when the product costs the same or less than the shipping itself.Vitor

author: Zucca
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 03, 2020, 10:54:50 am
content: In 1982 somebody had the same idea

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 03, 2020, 11:18:14 am
content: Micro HDMI probably makes sense given it's the same as Pi 4. Distributors probably don't want to stock loads of both cables, and customers may have bought Micro HDMI cables for their Pi 4 already. Consistency.

author: RobBarter
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 03, 2020, 12:48:17 pm
content: Quote from: pickle9000 on November 03, 2020, 12:02:22 amMy first computer

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 03, 2020, 02:57:55 pm
content: Great X-mass gift for many parents so no wonder they are flying.

author: pickle9000
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 03, 2020, 05:11:46 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on November 03, 2020, 11:18:14 amNo reason not to include a punchout on the case and a footprint on the pcb, at the design level the cost would have been zero.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 03, 2020, 05:18:06 pm
content: Quote from: pickle9000 on November 03, 2020, 05:11:46 pmFor an additional HDMI port? The Pi 4 SoC only has two HDMI outputs. So you'd need to find a different SoC. Or have the footprint overlay with a Micro HDMI connector, which might be difficult (and create EMI issues due to stub effects.)

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 03, 2020, 05:47:21 pm
content: Quote from: Bicurico on November 03, 2020, 10:40:17 amSo don't call it a "$5" computer then? Call it a $7 computer? Seems pretty easy to improve to me. Price it such that demand is roughly equal to the supply, and allow people to purchase as many as they want at the advertised price, just like virtually every other product on the market.

author: edy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 03, 2020, 08:57:07 pm
content: Nifty idea, I still have my original RasPi sitting around waiting for me to finish my retro-Arcade machine. One of these days I have to get back to it... PiMAME here I come...The RasPi 400 looks neat, my only comment is what happens when the keyboard gets buggered up (which my kids will probably do sooner rather than later)? I assume you can plug in an external keyboard into the USB ports? I prefer a little box containing the RasPi 4 (which I assume powers the heart of the RasPi 400) and then tucking it away behind something. Then I can use whatever keyboard I want.Now... If they could make a laptop form-factor in that price range... oh boy!!! Something to compete with those low-end Chromebooks (that I see sub $100). Once upon a time the Motorola Lapdock was a popular mod but now they are impossible to get. I'm sure there are laptop "kits" that accept a RasPi but until these are mass-produced by RasPi organization themselves it will be too costly.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 03, 2020, 09:07:34 pm
content: I would love to have this in a laptop form factor. With exposed Ethernet and GPIO connector. That would be a killer device even at $250.Attempts to make a general purpose desktop of RPi would fail, it is just not powerful enough.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 03, 2020, 09:21:14 pm
content: The Pi Zero is almost certainly a loss leader, that's why the stock is limited.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 03, 2020, 10:17:18 pm
content: Quote from: ataradov on November 03, 2020, 09:07:34 pmWhy not disassemble a 2nd hand laptop and build it yourself ?

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 03, 2020, 10:21:41 pm
content: Quote from: Kjelt on November 03, 2020, 10:17:18 pmLaptop panels do not usually have easily accessible way to get the panel provide HDMI support. Also gettingAlso, you would have to figure out how to bring out all the GPIO connectors.In short - it will look and feel like crap.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 03, 2020, 10:27:00 pm
content: Mwah enough 12" or 15" hdmi monitors for sale and the gpio you can choose whatever you like, some scsi3 connector or whatever. Anyway if you really want it, it is possible.Edit: tens of people already did it

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 03, 2020, 10:29:59 pm
content: This assumes access to 3D printer and other manufacturing capabilities.I don't want a project. I want a tool, and I'm happy to pay for one if it existed.Also that project does not really expose Ethernet or GPIO, since it is super inconvenient on the stock RPi.

author: edy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 04, 2020, 01:40:19 am
content: To make a viable "kit" for most people to build, they would want to start off with a generic power supply/battery and charging circuit that would supply the necessary power to the RasPi and screen, and have the ability to view the status of charge (a small LCD showing percent charge, for example).Then you could want an LCD screen that will take HDMI input, and ability to wire it into the power supply at the proper voltage. Finally, a USB keyboard with built-in trackpad would be needed to plug into the RasPi. Then a whole bunch of time trying to build a case for this hodge-podge that looks nice and doesn't fall apart, and then you can assemble the whole thing.I found this 7" LCD with HDMI input board for $24 (Takes 12V I believe):https://www.ebay.com/itm/7-inch-LCD-Screen-Display-Monitor-for-Raspberry-Pi-Driver-Board-HDMI-VGA-2AV/383506084453Then there is a USB touchpad keyboard for $25:https://www.ebay.com/itm/Cherry-6240-POS-Keyboard-G86-62401-USB-106-Keys-Touchpad-G86-62401EUADAA/254766266907I think a big problem for many "amateurs" (even if they can hook up a screen and keyboard) will be getting a suitable portable power source that can supply a couple of different voltages (say for the screen and the RasPi) and handle all the charging and display info on the charging and battery level. And then stuffing it all into something that looks better than a briefcase:

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 04, 2020, 03:58:53 am
content: Quote from: ataradov on November 03, 2020, 10:21:41 pmI don't know how well it would work to integrate into a laptop, but I have used those cheap LCD driver boards from China to repurpose various salvaged panels. Some of them are pretty small and they don't cost much so it might be worth a try.Honestly though I'm not sure there's a big advantage over something like a Chromebook hacked to run proper Linux. The GPIO of a RPi is nice, but there are GPIO solutions you could use to interface external devices. Then again, the RPi does have a load of already worked out hacks and stuff that can be gotten working without a huge effort.

author: Bicurico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 04, 2020, 04:41:41 am
content: For starters I just plan to use the Pi400 with Retropie as an emulation platform. I think it looks and probably feels ideal for this task.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 04, 2020, 06:06:33 am
content: I've moved away from wired keyboard and mouse.This goes in the complete wrong direction for me.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 04, 2020, 10:53:11 pm
content: Quote from: Brumby on November 04, 2020, 06:06:33 amAfter more than a decade, I have moved back to a wired keyboard and mouse. Battery life was never a problem but reliability of the wireless connection has always been.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 04, 2020, 11:19:57 pm
content: Maybe at some point they relize that SD cards are unreliable and they shouldn't be the boot drives, and replace it with IDK a HDD or SSD. Maybe they also realize that people use this as a desktop, so they make it compatible with regular cases. Also it would be nice if you can use an old regular power supply for it, instead of their hit and miss 5V 3A but actually 4A proprietary power supply. Maybe they realize that all the ports should be on one side, because having it on all 4 is bad for design, tolerances, everything. Maybe they also realize that cooling actually necessary with their board, because those Qualcom chipsets are becoming more and more power hungry. You know, something that is compatible.I think at that point they can finally make an ITX motherboard, instead of reinventing all the bad ideas from 20-40 years ago, that were tried and discarded.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 05, 2020, 01:13:32 am
content: Could they make it an ITX motherboard and still keep the cost down as low as it is? I doubt it.Personally I like the form factor, despite the flaws. Sure it's possible to use it as a desktop computer but that's not really what it's made for, it's better suited as an embedded device. Almost all of mine are running headless, tucked into housings not much larger than a deck of cards. A real SSD would be nice, but then again my main RPi server has been running 24/7 for at least 7 years now, I replaced the original SD card with a larger one 4 or 5 years ago and that's still going strong. I don't like the micro USB power jack much at all, so I soldered wires to the board and connected a proper DC barrel jack which I plug into salvaged wall warts that have nice heavy cords. I have a model 2 also, and a couple of 3Bs, they're all reliably handling various embedded tasks. The RPi is little more than a breakout board for the Broadcom SOC. I think just about anything done to improve it would increase the price, and there are other SBCs out there to fill those needs.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 05, 2020, 06:57:18 am
content: Quote from: David Hess on November 04, 2020, 10:53:11 pmI've only had that issue with original placement of the receiver. I didn't have to make any special concessions - just try each of the 3 locations I already had available (front of case, back of case, USB hub). After that, no problems.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 05, 2020, 08:43:52 am
content: Quote from: james_s on November 05, 2020, 01:13:32 amThere are mATX boards for sale, current generation, for 40 EUR. With a lot more ports, and a lot more going on on the PCB, bigger power management, etc. Once you order a lot of PCBs, the board price plummets.

author: Bicurico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 05, 2020, 09:08:26 am
content: This might be an interesting read for all those that are "complaining" about Micro HDMI, left sided USB, etc.:https://www.raspberrypi.org/blog/designing-raspberry-pi-400/I think if you would ask 10 persons how they would have made a "better" Raspberry Pi, you would get ten different designs...The success of the Raspberry Pi proves that they have made pretty good decisions so far.Regards,Vitor