FAA Statement on 5G - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: syau
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 14, 2021, 11:55:40 pm
content: The FAA believes the expansion of 5G and aviation will safely co-exist. Today, we took an important step toward that goal by issuing two airworthiness directives to provide a framework and to gather more information to avoid potential effects on aviation safety equipment. The FAA is working closely with the Federal Communications Commission and wireless companies, and has made progress toward safely implementing the 5G expansion.https://www.faa.gov/newsroom/faa-statement-5gCan’t they just coordinate with FCC before FCC put the 3.7GHz C-band out for suctionEdit: Fixed the URL, thanks @tooki

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 15, 2021, 12:26:20 am
content: 1. Here’s a non-mangled, clickable URL:https://www.faa.gov/newsroom/faa-statement-5g2. You don’t understand the point of the FAA’s role or standpoint in this matter, do you? Their job, as the agency responsible for aviation safety rules, includes defining the rules and requirements for aviation equipment. And that in turn means they are responsible for approving radio altimeters, and defining the requirements for them. Why does this earn a facepalm from you?

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 17, 2021, 12:38:36 am
content: I have no particular issue with the FAA's actions except that they're too late. 5G should never have been in the same band as navigation aids. To me, this is the screw-up of the FCC.That two governmental agencies can't coordinate a coffee break comes as no surprise.This could turn out to be a really big problem!

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 17, 2021, 01:20:44 am
content: Quote from: rstofer on December 17, 2021, 12:38:36 amYep and I think that was the whole point of the OP. Judging from their last sentence. This is mind-boggling here. It's not just a coordination issue IMHO - it's a complete screw-up of the FCC as you just said. It was THEIR duty. It's their job to coordinate frequency bands use and allocation. Isn't it?

author: Foxxz
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 17, 2021, 01:24:26 am
content: My opinion on the matter is the aircraft equipment manufacturers got away with being able to cheap out on filtering and not making their receivers selective as they had no RF neighbors at the time. The altimeters operate from 4.2-4.4ghz and the C-band 5G equipment is operating under 4ghz. If your equipment can't deal with a transmitter operating 200MHz away thats lazy design.I get there can be out of band harmonics and whatnot but there are acceptable emission standards for that and your receiver should be prepared to cope with it.I don't think the FCC and cellular companies are the bad guys here.Buy a couple of these and move on with lifehttps://www.minicircuits.com/WebStore/dashboard.html?model=ZVBP-4300-S%2B

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 17, 2021, 05:37:50 pm
content: Same problem happened in the UK with Freeview TV and 4G signals at 800MHz. Older receivers weren't immune from the near frequency, so the cell providers had to pay for 200k+ filters for people, plus engineers to install them if you didn't know how to unplug an antenna and plug in one of these dongles.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 18, 2021, 04:44:52 pm
content: https://mobile.slashdot.org/story/21/12/15/2351226/us-airlines-warn-5g-wireless-could-cause-havoc-with-flightsI bought a little TV antenna recently, and they include a 4G/5G filter on the cable. I assume that is an indicator that RCA corporation found out that 5G can effect VHF receivers or amplifiers operating between 100-700MHz (the flat antenna might be too broad band). It seems standard if you buy shelf stocked antennas at a major retailer in the USA.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 18, 2021, 04:51:14 pm
content: Quote from: Foxxz on December 17, 2021, 01:24:26 amSurely the blame for that would be whoever specified the performance required for approval? Not being affected by entirely predictable future neighbouring signals would seem a pretty basic and obvious requirement.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 18, 2021, 06:09:38 pm
content: I imagine there is quite a difference between a Best Buy filter and something the FAA would allow to fly.New altimeters do mitigate the 5G problem:https://www.freeflightsystems.com/blog/product/radar-altimeters/I imagine the other manufacturers are doing the same. upgrading an entire fleet may get a little expensive,

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 18, 2021, 06:17:44 pm
content: Are the carriers going to eliminate caps or at least greatly increase them? If they're doing it just to make it easier to use up the caps, that plan to use the frequencies should be rejected.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 18, 2021, 06:37:00 pm
content: Quote from: Foxxz on December 17, 2021, 01:24:26 amSo, 80+ years ago, when radar altimeters roamed the earth, there were no neighbors and 5G wasn't even a dream. So, you design a system for the facts in front of you and, now, decades later, with thousands of installed units, designed for the facts in front of the designer at the time, somebody moves in next door,It seems to me that this is 100% FCC responsibility and 0% designers/users of radar altimeters. The FCC got greedy selling spectrum which meant exactly what to the average taxpayer, airline passenger or cell phone user? Not a darn thing!The radar altimeter was designed in 1924 and commercialized by Bell Labs in 1938. Kind of a long time before cell phones were even a dream much less a nightmare. I don't know when the altimeters started using 4.2 GHz.https://www.freeflightsystems.com/blog/product/radar-altimeters/Interesting paper:https://www.icao.int/safety/FSMP/MeetingDocs/FSMP%20WG11/IP/FSMP-WG11-IP08_ICAO%20Flight%20Operations%20Panel%20and%20IATA%20%20IFALPA%205G%20problem%20statement.pdf

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 18, 2021, 07:10:37 pm
content: Can't let antiquated and badly designed equipment tie up spectrum forever.A sanely designed system with cross correlation and a semi-random sequence should be able to deal with any interference which doesn't saturate the front end, even bad filtering shouldn't really matter. Of course assuming sanity is not realistic, so a lot of equipment will have to get swapped out ... but the decision for the sale was made in 2018. That's more than enough time to replace the antiquated and bad equipment.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 18, 2021, 08:39:43 pm
content: Yep. What I still don’t understand is why the OP seems to be placing blame on the FAA.

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 18, 2021, 09:36:39 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on December 17, 2021, 05:37:50 pmI've watched the allocation of spectrum here over the years and studied some of the history. The problems, I think, stem from who gets to sell bandwidth on behalf of everyone else and what happens to the income received from the highest bidder.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 18, 2021, 09:55:11 pm
content: Quote from: rstofer on December 18, 2021, 06:37:00 pmYep. And again, whatever the situation, this is FCC's duty to make sure frequency allocation will be safe for existing installations, especially when it comes to safety-critical ones.Does anyone (except a few apparently) here know how long and how complicated it is to get avionics/air navigation systems certified? How could the FCC ignore that?It sure came under a lot of pressure, seeing how so many large telecom companies and governments were so eager to deploy 5G. But when you're responsible, you are supposed to handle pressure properly. Oh, and 6G is coming too. It's going to be a lot of fun.Not saying that the FAA has 0 responsibility in this either, at least considering that it seems to have been a bit too "careless" these days...

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 18, 2021, 10:02:40 pm
content: Quote from: Marco on December 18, 2021, 07:10:37 pmThat's not even remotely enough time to redesign, recertify and replace avionic equipment. And why should an existing user that met the standards in effect at the time have to accommodate a new user?

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 18, 2021, 10:47:44 pm
content: I wish ever country would get together and agree on global spectrum band usage to be implemented everywhere starting at like 2050.I know its not going to happen, but we can hope.

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 18, 2021, 11:17:45 pm
content: Something funny from the earliest testing ...QuoteRAs don't work with interference from other RAs under the conditions they are judging 5G by ...

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 18, 2021, 11:37:54 pm
content: And I have been thinking of this as a US problem but, really, it's a worldwide problem because, sooner or later, every backwater airstrip in the world will have radar altimeters competing with 5G. Whatever the resolution, it needs to become a worldwide standard.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 18, 2021, 11:40:21 pm
content: thats true because there will be ultra vulnerable planes if it is not standardized, think Die Hard 2. I would hate to see what happens in third world airports if this kind of stuff is not accounted for, malicious or accidental.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 18, 2021, 11:42:49 pm
content: Quote from: Marco on December 18, 2021, 11:17:45 pmI wonder how close together 2 RAs can get. Following distance, etc. I have no idea how focused the beam actually is. I suppose if it were tightly focused, we wouldn't have this thread.5G, OTOH, can be right next to the landing strip in a vehicle of some type.

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2021, 01:17:44 am
content: Can't be very focused because of plane attitude.PS. I was assuming a bit much with cross correlation of semi-random sequences ... that's how newfangled GPS might do it, but this is still chirp mixing and beat frequency detection.

author: syau
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 20, 2021, 08:12:56 am
content: Canada government put restrictions on 5G service near airports.https://mobilesyrup.com/2021/10/09/federal-government-restrictions-5g-service-airports/