EEVblog #1260 - $70 100MHz Oscilloscope? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 11, 2019, 12:59:56 am
content: Is this FNIRSI-5012H 100MHz bandwidth 500MS/s Handheld pocket oscilloscope any good?Review + Teardownhttp://s.click.aliexpress.com/e/Lirr17DW

author: snoopy
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2019, 01:13:21 am
content: I bought one of these a while ago and started a thread on it herehttps://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/daniu-ads5012h-100mhz-500-mss-portable-scope-for-$80-usd/msg2490162/#msg2490162It works but has some limitations. The bandwidth is not as good as what it claims and there are lots of timing jitter at the higher sweep rates. But for low frequency stuff it is a very useful instrument for the price and it's really handy for doing floating measurementsSometimes you need to press the autoset button twice to get it to autoset properly

author: cliffyk
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2019, 02:19:44 am
content: I had one, but sent it back as it did not trigger well at all (see here). I was REALLY hoping it would work...

author: johnlsenchak
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2019, 02:46:40 am
content: Clearly this is not a professional grade Oscilloscope , it's just a toy with specifications hyped up by the old men in China with the gray beards .This little Oscilloscope would be good for some kid just starting off in electronics doing signal testing in the audio range like working on consumer grade amplifiers .I would have loved something like this back in the early eighties using it with my Radio Shack five hundred in one electronic kit

author: cliffyk
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2019, 04:01:27 am
content: None of these sub-$200 Asian hand held mini-scopes are "professional" or even advanced hobbyist grade. I have gone through several of then over the past 2 or 3 months (Amazon Prime's return policies support this sort of research nicely). I had hoped to find a sub-$300 replacement for a not especially old (I bought it in June of 2009) Owon HDS1022M-N on which the plastic case decided to self-destruct, actually crumbling in my hands as I was using it.All together I sampled the:JinHan JDS2022A(20MHz, 200 MSps, $168.99)--absolutely horrid documentation, odd user interface, and limited trigger options at faster scans;Hantek 2D42(40MHz, 250 MSps, $175.99)--poorly designed deeply recessed BNC connectors, triggering issues with pulse bursts;Owon HDS1021M-N(20 MHz, 500 MSps, $217.96)--this was against my better judgement, given my prior Owon experience, but it had a 640 x 480 display (curiously it saved screen dumps only at 320 x 240--same as the older model I had). Also it required a multitude of dongles (supplied) for all USB connections (to PC, and for jump drives). THe display lacked contrast and was as dim as the 10-yo device; I had expected better after 10 years;Hantek DSO1062B(60 MHZ, 1 GSps, $356.00)--this was a keeper... Bright 5.6" 640 x 480 display, screen captures and .AVI sequentials also at VGA resolution. Rated 60 MHz, actually 3 dB down at 90 MHz. 2500 frames/sec. I like it!;But, still hungry/ curious I bought:FNIRSI Pro ADS2050H(5 Mhz, 20 MSps, $52.99)--I ended up with two of these due to a vendor screw-up (if anyone wants to buy one give me a yell). They are not bad, the 5 MHz bandwidth rating is as claimed; however they have the same triggering issues as the other "el-cheapos", triggering sporadically on aperiodic signals, and no triggered operation at all at sweeps > 500 ns.Then there was the5012H(100 MHz, 500 MSps, $84.98) of which enough has been said;JYETech DSO112A(2 Mhz, 5 MSps, $57.99)--This is not a bad unit, I will keep it. In the first, it triggers properly on aperiodic signals including the 10 cycles of 10kHz repetitive bursts I used to test the 5012H. It offers 2 mV/div sensitivity. The front-end does pass 2 MHz signals, but unfortunately the 5 MSps sample rate is borderline slow to properly replicate a 2 MHz wave.The touchscreen control is fun, however except that it is tiny I do not find any significant advantage over the push-button UIs of the others.Little MCX connectors too, and an external trigger input:It does offer usable cursor measurements, both voltage and time; and the trigger point can be set to 1/8, 1/4, 1/2, 3/4 and 7/8 of the 1024 point buffer. The displayed 310 or so data points can be scrolled left and right allowing the entire 1024 point capture to be observed (most of the "minitoys"do not offer this capability, making their 1024 point or whatever capture buffers irrelevant;

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2019, 07:59:47 am
content: Typical project. You make an good hardware (OK hardware in this case) and then it is let-down by the firmware and the software. Management underestimates the time it takes to write the software, doesnt give proper specification, and by the time someone with half a brain tests it, they invested so much time into the turd that is the firmware, that they have to ship no matter if it works or not.

author: plexus
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2019, 08:38:01 am
content: My use-case for this would be audio signal tracing - would this be enough? I can get it for $85 CAD (about $65 USD) shipped from Banggood. Opinions for this use-case/price?

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2019, 05:34:50 pm
content: Quote from: plexus on November 12, 2019, 08:38:01 amDepends on how often you need to do that. The current UI is incredibly frustrating. I would not get it if you need to use it on a regular basis.

author: cliffyk
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2019, 08:52:09 pm
content: Quote from: plexus on November 12, 2019, 08:38:01 amI would (and in fact did) buy the JYE Tec DSO112A I featured above; rather than the completely misrepresented 5012H thing--which does not sample at 500 MSps, and does not trigger reliably. The DSO112A will do anything you need to do at audio frequencies, including harmonics to 1 MHz (the 50th harmonic of a 20 kHz signal)...#1, if you can, I recommend buying from Amazon Prime and pay with a credit card--you can easily return anything you don't like ; and they will issue credit to your card just as soon as UPS has accepted the return package (the record for me was 15 minutes after i dropped off the package at a UPS store, but never more than 4 or 5 hours)...

author: jonovid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2019, 01:56:14 am
content: if you start with the assumption its a 10MHz Oscilloscope, not 100MHzthis has got to be better then those DSO138 1MHz Digital Oscilloscope DIY kits.it is a bit overpriced for a 10MHz unit.I also note- the poor quality of the black case with sink marks in the plastic.the quality of any custom made for purpose plastic case says a lot about its true value.

author: cliffyk
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2019, 02:05:10 am
content: Quote from: jonovid on November 13, 2019, 01:56:14 amHaving had one I must disagree; beyond the B.S. claimed specifications it is incapable of reliably triggering on even the most simplistic of aperiodic signals--making it useless for anything beyond determining if a particular wire has squiggly lines in it.It should be a Fisher-Price product; "My Little Oscilloscope" or maybe Mattel, "Barbie's First Oscilloscope"...

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2019, 02:05:34 am
content: Quote from: jonovid on November 13, 2019, 01:56:14 amAll my 3 units are perfectly fine. So it may be more of a QA problem than manufacturing.

author: cliffyk
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2019, 02:10:35 am
content: Ditto, the one I had was mechanically sound and reasonably well fitted..

author: all_repair
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2019, 02:33:15 am
content: JYETech DSO112A. They are longer in this game.Put a handphone ring behind, you have a standing portable scope.

author: cliffyk
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2019, 02:46:01 am
content: Quote from: all_repair on November 13, 2019, 02:33:15 amI like it; used it last weekend with a capacitive probe to identify a bad coil on my neighbor's Honda Ridgeline toy pickup truck. He and his wife and a couple other guys from the neighborhood were suitably impressed...

author: plexus
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2019, 07:46:34 am
content: Does anyone have opinions about the 2-ch SainSmart Mini Digital Oscilloscope DS212 or 4-ch DSO213??

author: rjp
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2019, 08:19:42 am
content: Quote from: plexus on November 13, 2019, 07:46:34 amyeh, the DSO213 seem the most interesting of the cheapie portable ones, and also quite expensive for the specs, so perhaps do work better."15MHz and max sample rate to 100MSa/s"$250 AU is still to much for me to take a risk on.

author: jonovid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2019, 09:25:28 am
content: Quote from: cliffyk on November 13, 2019, 02:05:10 amcan anybody reverse engineer a schematic from this thing?then possibly a firmware software fixhackwill do it?as say a kids "my first scope" christmas stocking stufferor re-task the whole unit to run as a single task specialized bit of test kit.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2019, 05:32:06 pm
content: Quote from: jonovid on November 13, 2019, 09:25:28 amhttps://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/reverse-engineering-fnirsi-5012h/

author: jonovid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 14, 2019, 12:32:58 am
content: I stand corrected

author: VK3DRB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 14, 2019, 01:02:15 pm
content: Dave, you should be a review of the NanoVNA which reputedly works to 1GHz.I bought a Hoo Flung Dung brand NanoVNA from eBay and I printed a 3D printed a case for it. Quite accurate too as I used it for my antenna HF antenna and compared with with another VNA. With some decent software for a PC interface written by a westerner, it works a treat. About $70 delivered t my door! Twenty years ago, it would have cost $25,000. Does Smith charts, reflectometry (very useful for finding where impedance mismatches occurs), return loss, VSWR etc.I also bought an IT8511+ electronic load out of China. This is damned good, too, and worthy of a review. You can get much cheaper ones, but this actually is good quality instrument... robust, good firmware, accurate.

author: ocset
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 16, 2019, 10:05:08 pm
content: Our production staff could use this $70 thing to see if our DALI device is sending a signal or not.Also, to view the basic mains input current to some of our products if used with a current probe.So i think it would be useful in some ways.....mainly because of the cheap cost, and for these purposes, you definetely dont want to buy a "proper" scope.I mean, what about just using it as a 10MHz scope?...$70 for that is pretty good.I must admit the bit about the compensation having to be re-done at the higher v/div didnt impress.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 17, 2019, 02:25:34 pm
content: Quote from: cliffyk on November 11, 2019, 04:01:27 amNo oscilloscope lacking variable holdoff can reliably trigger on aperiodic or burst signals. The trigger rearm time depends on the sample rate and record length or duration to fill the acquisition record plus a fixed duration for processing so it varies with time/div setting. So trigger stability depends on the time/div setting.An oscilloscope with variable holdoff allows extending of the trigger rearm time allowing synchronization with irregularly regular signals by preventing triggering within a burst but this is not something I would ever expect to find on a budget oscilloscope.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 17, 2019, 06:56:04 pm
content: Quote from: David Hess on November 17, 2019, 02:25:34 pmTh issue with 5012H is that it never properly triggers on single time events. Not eve once. There is a firmware bug.

author: ocset
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 17, 2019, 07:42:01 pm
content: i think the major problem with the scope in question here, in the top post, is that due to its problems, it isnt even really useable as a 10MHz scope.I think there would be all kinds of false aliasing etc due to the problems that Dave Jones highlights in the video.

author: cliffyk
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 17, 2019, 08:01:16 pm
content: Quote from: David Hess on November 17, 2019, 02:25:34 pmI disagree, the JYETech DSO112A I referenced above does quite nicely on anything I've thrown at it--used it recently to monitor the "Echo" pulse from an ultrasonic sensor, quite nicely and reliably. It also passes the 10 cycles of 10 kHz burst test the 5012H chokes on...

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2019, 12:47:48 am
content: For what these scopes are costing you can get a high quality used scope. The used scope will likely have high quality documentation (both use and repair) available and be repairable. The only advantage for these scopes is their small size and the isolation from battery operation. Newbies looking for a new scope who do not live in a closet will probably be better off going used. But these things do have uses, just as the pocket size multi-meters can be very useful for some things.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2019, 02:17:26 am
content: Quote from: ataradov on November 17, 2019, 06:56:04 pmThe triggering could still be broken by design and admittedly some "toy" DSOs I have checked out were awful. I am just saying even a perfect trigger can fail on aperiodic or burst signals.Quote from: cliffyk on November 17, 2019, 08:01:16 pmCould it have had just exactly the right combination of sample rate and record length to produce a trigger rearm time long enough to produce good results on those specific tests? I wonder what kind of algorithm for a DSO would allow automatic triggering on burst signals without user adjustments.Back when I used analog oscilloscopes which lacked a holdoff adjustment, one of the tricks to triggering on a difficult signal if I was desperate was to adjust the variable horizontal control to trim the time/div to a point where the trigger rearm time was just right. This left the horizontal scale uncalibrated but provided a stable display.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2019, 04:50:14 am
content: Quote from: rjp on November 13, 2019, 08:19:42 amAssuming it's the thing that used to be called "DSO Quad" then the DSO2103 is a great little device, mostly hampered by the user interface.They're not cheap but if you need something tiny and battery powered then it's the one to go for. I'll definitely get another one if mine ever breaks.Edit: There's various firmwares available for them, I'm not sure which firmware the eBay ones ship with but it makes a huge difference.

author: x86guru
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 30, 2021, 06:28:51 pm
content: Hi guys,I know this is an old thread but I recently got an FNIRSI-5012H to add to my T&M collection. I bought a FNIRSI-5012H directly from FNIRSI's official store on AliExpress to evaluate it myself.https://www.aliexpress.com/item/33021370646.html?spm=a2g0s.12269583.0.0.6f82788eTtfVSJSurprisingly, FNIRSI provides a URL to the EEVblog YouTube video within their FNIRSI-5012H item page on AliExpress.Of course, after I measured the actual bandwidth of the 5012H myself, I was disappointed like everyone else here. With a 25MHz 5V p-p sine, the FNIRSI-5012H is measuring 3.32V p-p. I measured the bandwidth of my FNIRSI-5012H at around 23MHz as 23MHz yields a -3dB amplitude drop.I was not surprised; however, I contacted FNIRSI directly about the bandwidth issue and was shocked by their complete arrogance. FNIRSI tried to convince me that the amplitude drop from a 25MHz 5V p-p input measured by the 5012H as 25MHz 3.32V p-p is <quote> "normal and all oscilloscopes will measure the same" <quote>.FNIRSI is claiming that the 5012H has 100MHz of bandwidth because the 5012H can measure frequency correctly, regardless if the amplitude is attenuated below -3dB.I was expecting FNIRSI to claim it has 100MHz bandwidth under certain conditions, but they claim it fully meets their specifications which bothers me. I could care less about the money as it's nothing, but I absolutely do care about being grossly misled and that really annoys me. I requested to return the 5012H on AliExpress at the "official" FNIRSI store, but FNIRSI keeps refusing and saying that it does have 100MHz of bandwidth because it can measure frequency correctly regardless of a massive amplitude drop way below -3dB.I would be very happy if it was advertised as having 20MHz of bandwidth and 250MS/s sampling rate, but then again, none of us would have bought it to see if it's really true or not.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 30, 2021, 07:28:50 pm
content: Quote from: x86guru on November 30, 2021, 06:28:51 pmI'm not sure if this is the case. Simply looking at the board design was sufficient to tell that this device is not going to have 100 MHz bandwidth.I bought them expecting about what they deliver.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 30, 2021, 07:33:06 pm
content: I'm quite bothered by falsified specs. If they advertised it as a 20MHz scope I probably would buy one and be very happy with its performance, there are quite a few uses for a pocket sized 20MHz DSO and the price is very reasonable. They flat out lie about the specs though and I will not reward that with a purchase.

author: cliffyk
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 30, 2021, 07:41:10 pm
content: I bought one on 9/30/2019, branded as a "Yeapook 5012H"--got a similar arrogance from FNIRSI when I questioned the claimed "100Mhz bandwidth".The good news is I got it through Amazon Prime, making my response easy:

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 30, 2021, 08:21:07 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on November 30, 2021, 07:33:06 pmThat is the nature of the Beast. I do not know what else should happen to make people realize not to buy any meaninful T&M from China.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 30, 2021, 09:07:06 pm
content: Quote from: Bud on November 30, 2021, 08:21:07 pmNothing needs to happen. I personally buy based on the actual performance (expected or based on reviews), and I'm rarely disappointed. Just de-rate or ignore specs. This scope is an okay-ish rough waveform display unit, not a piece of measurement equipment.Same thinking applies to non-Chinese stuff. Everyone lies on the specs to the extent they can. China often lies outright, Western vendors often chose unrealistic and non-representative testing conditions. When was the last time you've got stated battery life on literally anything?Also, 250 MHz sampling rate is also a lie. It does supply 250 MHz (125 MHz*2) clock to the ADC, but MCU's port and DMA are not capable of receiving those samples, so you just get double of the same sample on two clocks.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 30, 2021, 10:38:53 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on November 30, 2021, 07:33:06 pmSellers have exaggerated/oversold their products since before money was invented.We have the expression "Caveat Emptor" specifically for that.

author: cliffyk
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 01, 2021, 02:33:13 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on November 30, 2021, 10:38:53 pmThere is also:"if something sounds too good to be true..."and,"If you buy the cheapest there is, you will likely get 'the cheapest there is'.-me ca. 1975-and; from the IBM sales team in the late 60s/early 70s:"No one was ever sorry they bought the best there was!"I did not expect an $80 Asian "toy" 'scope to actually be capable of 100 MHz bandwidth, and was not "disappointed" that it didn't--more just pissed off that I was so blatantly lied to--but other than that, lost no "skin in the game"...

author: all_repair
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 01, 2021, 03:20:54 am
content: Proof is in the usage. For such a scope, one does not buy it and use it because of the 100MHz. There are better models came out, I am still holding to my wallet because this beast is good enough and there is always another better model down the corner. The auto-triggering, the small size and the good enough battery-life has made this scope 2nd most used equipment after handlheld multimeters. Investment has been recovered many time over. Can't say about a lot of high specification white elephants I had bought.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 01, 2021, 08:09:25 am
content: Quote from: all_repair on December 01, 2021, 03:20:54 amYep. If you're working in the kHz range, or even up to single digit MHz (eg. Arduino) then this thing is a bargain. The difference between being able to see a signal or not is like night vs. day.

author: x86guru
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2021, 04:09:23 am
content: I opened a dispute on AliExpress with FNIRSI's Official store who sold me the FNIRSI-5012H.Here is the FNIRSI's Official store on AliExpress claiming their FNIRSI-5012H meets their advertised specifications.This shows you how blatantly dishonest FNIRSI is.They also posted these pictures as evidence that it has 100MHz of bandwidth. The first picture is the picture I showed them of a 5V p-p signal and the 5012H only measuring 3.32V p-p. They marked it up to show that it can read 25MHz correctly, completely ignoring the 3.32V p-p measurement which shows how completely incompetent FNIRSI is:I posted this back, I assume everyone here does agree?

author: cliffyk
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2021, 05:57:10 am
content: I have in the past bought from AliExpress, however adter a similar row with their customer "support" over something i bought but never received (a Wen portable band saw) I swore I'd never deal with them again. The vendor claimed it had been shipped, but could provide no proof of delivery; nonetheless AliExpress stood 100% behind the vendor, essentially telling me to screw off.Pay a bit extra and get it from Amazon--"Prime" is my preference; free 2-day (1-day on some stuff) shipping and NO hassle returns--worth every penny...

author: cliffyk
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2021, 06:12:39 am
content: Quote from: all_repair on December 01, 2021, 03:20:54 amAgreed, I have the Yeapook branded 1013D dual trace 'scope, also claimed to be 100 Mhz, but really just 34 Mhz. It also has a maximum vertical sensitivity of just 50 mV. Nonetheless I used it quite often troubleshooting automotive and bike ignition and other engine control systems.At 7000 rpm even a 10 cylinder 4-stroke/cycle engine is only firing at 585 Hz. It is only within the various controllers that Mhz frequencies can be found, and signal levels are all well above 50 mV.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2021, 06:52:29 am
content: Quote from: x86guru on December 02, 2021, 04:09:23 amMeh. All this was known a year ago, there's multiple threads on here. Nobody was even surprised by the measurements, it simply isn't possible to make a device with those specs at that price. All we wanted was to see how bad it actually was.FNIRSI aren't being dishonest (in their eyes), it's simply the way business is done in this world, eg. when did you last see a car that meets its official fuel consumption figures in the USA? Would you expect to get a refund for a car by making a fuss over it?Open your eyes and you might see you now own a useful, cute, portable oscilloscope that didn't cost you much money.

author: cliffyk
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2021, 07:27:53 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on December 02, 2021, 06:52:29 amThat's the "If it sounds too good to be true..." part.QuoteThey may not believe they are being dishonest--but they are, blatantly dishonest. That "...it's simply the way business is done in this world..." does not make it right; it's just yet another example of the devolved cesspool our society has become.Automobile manufacturers use theEPA test schedules(I.e. laboratory tests) to come up with published fuel economy numbers--this is akin to using the -3 dB point to determine a 'scope's bandwidth. Using different test parameters; be it a different lost amplitude specification, or such as driving on real roads vs. on a dynamometer in a laboratory--will produce different numbers.Quote

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2021, 10:47:37 am
content: Quote from: cliffyk on December 02, 2021, 07:27:53 amWe also know that the CAT ratings on cheap multimeters are a lie and don't take them into industrial power location expecting them to behave like Flukes.On the bench when we're messing around with 5V DC? They're great little meters!The truth about the FNIRSI is all over the Internet. There's no point in acting all indignant about it if you've just bought one.

author: tunk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2021, 11:16:59 am
content: It is not specified how those 100MHz is "measured", so instead of -3dB,I guess it's something like this: The max frequency where you can stillsee (if you squint) it's a sine curve.

author: x86guru
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2021, 01:40:55 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on December 02, 2021, 10:47:37 amLet's load up the hair trigger double barrel shit machine gun and take them out!

author: cliffyk
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2021, 04:51:37 pm
content: Quote from: tunk on December 02, 2021, 11:16:59 amYes, their not specifying the test parameters, thus leaving the customer to assume it is specified at the conventional -3 cB point IS the big lie. However there is no such "fudge" in their false claim of a 500 Mhz sample rate.The fact is FNIRSI are a bunch oflying dog-faced pony soldiers, as are the various resellers that rebrand the device and make the same claims. The retailers offering it to the consumer are very near equally to blame despite their often well hidden allusions to "manufacturer's specifications" disclaimers.That they all having been telling/selling the big lie for nearly two years does not absolve them of any wrongdoing anymore than calling a cow's tail a leg means a cow has five legs--calling it a leg does not make it one. The bottom line is the makers and resellers are liars, and the retailers are their enablers.I agree that this most recently deceived/aggrieved buyer apparently did not exercise due diligence prior to purchase. The overall failure complicated by not exercising same re: buying from AliExpress.The best lessons in life often require making mistakes and learning the "hard way". That's how we all learned to walk and talk.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2021, 05:42:17 pm
content: Quote from: x86guru on December 02, 2021, 01:40:55 pmWhy would I take out manufacturer of a product I enjoy and that fits the need? So my only option is to buy $2000 Keysight?I would rather everyone was honest with advertising, but even in that case Chinese vendors would not be first on my list.It is like complaining about 1500W speakers. Just be real, and if you are clueless enough to buy those products on the provided specs, then does it really matter to you?

author: fourfathom
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2021, 06:28:12 pm
content: Quote from: ataradov on December 02, 2021, 05:42:17 pmMaybe it's "Peak Music Power" 100 MHz bandwidth?Anyway, I have one, it's a cute scope and often useful to me. I bought it knowing the issues, and would buy it again. I have better scopes when needed. It does suck that the specs are blatantly misrepresented, but this seems to be the world we live in.

author: cliffyk
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2021, 06:37:39 pm
content: Quote from: ataradov on December 02, 2021, 05:42:17 pmI read that as a facetious "wise crack", not something to be taken literally...

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2021, 07:10:51 pm
content: Quote from: ataradov on December 02, 2021, 05:42:17 pmI don't appreciate being lied to. Vendors that publish bogus specs are trying to deceive me, and I will not reward that behavior by purchasing their products. It may be obvious that the power rating on a set of cheap speakers is bogus, that does not make it ok to lie, and I'm not going to purchase them even if they would meet my actual needs.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2021, 07:16:38 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on December 02, 2021, 07:10:51 pmI have not had a single laptop or phone that would last as long as claimed spec. Obviously they are not lying, they are just choosing highly unlikely test conditions that do not represent real work loads (like playing video, which is all done with hardware decoders and does not take any CPU at all).

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2021, 07:27:17 pm
content: Quote from: ataradov on December 02, 2021, 07:16:38 pmSure, but for an oscilloscope there is a very standardized and accepted method of specifying bandwidth, and this scope in question is simply not capable of meeting the specified bandwidth under standard conditions, not even close. If it claimed 100MHz and could achieve 90MHz under ideal conditions that would be one thing, but this thing appears to struggle to reach 25MHz.

author: x86guru
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2021, 07:44:31 pm
content: Quote from: ataradov on December 02, 2021, 05:42:17 pmMaybe this will help, but probably not.https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Hair%20triggered%20double%20barreled%20shit%20machine%20gun

author: cliffyk
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2021, 08:09:57 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on December 02, 2021, 07:27:17 pmAgreed 110% -- I was raised to understand that just because others behaved immorally did not grant me (or anyone else) permission to do likewise.Our society has become a real shit-show...

author: all_repair
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 03, 2021, 01:22:34 am
content: Problem or issue is further complicated by dropshippers on ebay, aliexpress, etc that are selling these technical test equipment alongside with flower vase, phone casings, hair clip,etc . When sourcing, these listers shall get the lowest price on their market which are mostly likely known-factory-rejects that they do not know, or do not care.Dave found a good deal for a process-calibration meter on aliexpress at an extremely good price. He did a video blog, many people here sent in multiple orders fully knowing that they were faulty with the hope of fixing them, but could not even get one delivered. Sellers did all kind of tricks after the market stock evaporated overnight so as to protect their online rating but these tricks actually worsen their rating as people here was aware of the situation and were willing to just reverse the order. This is a side-track, but is revelant in sourcing cheap no/new brand equipment online at this juncture. Maybe the situation may change, if it does likely the price shall proportionaly change with it.Different course needs different horse, and different horse need different rider.

author: cliffyk
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 03, 2021, 01:30:17 am
content: ^^^+1000 or so...

author: x86guru
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 05, 2021, 05:33:30 pm
content: FNIRSI has taken gross incompetence to a new level! WOW, check this out.Here is a video that FNIRSI created as "evidence" that they are completely and unquestionably inept. FNIRSI is saying the 5012H does have 100MHz bandwidth because the "expensive" DOS1102 is also rated at 100MHz and measures 3.3Vpp on a 5Vpp 25MHz sine just like the 5012H does.Here is the "evidence" that FNIRSI uploaded to AliExpress:

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 05, 2021, 08:40:44 pm
content: You seem to be under the illusion that this is news to anybody.All we see here is "20MHz, portable, touch-screen oscilloscope for $100-ish" - bargain!Even Apple thinks they're cute, they filled their M1 development labs with them:

author: x86guru
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 05, 2021, 09:19:33 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on December 05, 2021, 08:40:44 pmI guess I was under the illusion that people would care to see how dishonest and dishonorable FNIRSI is.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 05, 2021, 10:03:51 pm
content: Quote from: x86guru on December 05, 2021, 09:19:33 pmWe knew that before they even released this device.We also know that the CAT ratings on cheap multimeters are fake but we still but them because they're useful/cheap/good when you're working with low voltage.

author: cliffyk
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2021, 02:02:51 am
content: Quote from: x86guru on December 05, 2021, 05:33:30 pmYou are just being argumentative and picky--they used the finest quality HF alligator clip test leads they could find...

author: cliffyk
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2021, 02:17:53 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on December 05, 2021, 08:40:44 pmI'm 74 and could not really watch that Apple blurb. The bit I saw reminded me of the dystopian "not-too-far-off" future movie "The Circle"--as does everything Zuckerberg has ever said or done; particularly his most recent mouth farts--it features Emma Watson as a gullible naive "millennial"and Tom Hanks as a Jobs/Musk/Zuckerberg amalgam--if you haven't seen it, seek it out...

author: x86guru
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2021, 06:07:28 am
content: I gave FNIRSI a video showing my Siglent SDS1202X-E measuring the 5Vpp 25MHz sine with a correct 5Vpp measurement compared to the 5012H measuring only 3.3Vpp and FNIRSI said the following:FNIRSI claim it's not fair to compare a 25MHz signal measurement from a 200MHz scope with the 5012H.FNIRSI is dumber than a box of rubber hammers.I just sent them a video showing the exact same 5Vpp 25MHz sine measuring 5Vpp on my Rigol 100MHz MSO1104z. I wonder what they are going to say next. I expect they will say something like the Rigol has too many buttons so it's not a valid comparison?

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2021, 06:16:47 am
content: They are not dumb, their goal is to waste your time until you give up. Is this process really worth your time? What is the end goal here? Unless free returns were claimed on the offer, they will eventually offer you to return the device. The cost of shipping it back to China would be astronomical.

author: cliffyk
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2021, 06:25:33 am
content: I don't think they are inept, in fact they seem to be very accomplished and capable liars, not letting facts get in the way of their oxen-scheisse...

author: x86guru
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2021, 06:32:24 am
content: Quote from: ataradov on December 06, 2021, 06:16:47 amIt's already been granted in my favor for a full refund without returning. FNIRSI continue to add fake evidence, so I guess they are trying to stall issuing the refund.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2021, 07:09:50 am
content: Quote from: x86guru on December 06, 2021, 06:07:28 amWhy? They're presenting evidence to somebody who knowsnothingabout oscilloscopes. Engineer talk about 3dB pointsisn'tthe smart way to do that.

author: x86guru
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2021, 07:21:29 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on December 06, 2021, 07:09:50 amThe case has already been granted in my favor. FNIRSI is still trying to convince me (not AliExpress) that their 5012H has 100MHz of analog bandwidth.

author: cliffyk
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2021, 07:37:33 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on December 06, 2021, 07:09:50 amI don't understand your comment--the -3 dB, (1/2 power) "point" has been the standard by which oscilloscope bandwidth has been specified for at least 30 years--probably more. Any 'scope manufacturer or vendor (or even electronic hobbyist) that doesn't know that is far beyond incompetent...

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2021, 08:44:25 am
content: Quote from: cliffyk on December 06, 2021, 07:37:33 amThey're presenting evidence to alixpress, not you.

author: cliffyk
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2021, 02:22:38 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on December 06, 2021, 08:44:25 amAha--I understand your perspective; although it seem Ali is forwarding the "evidence" to FNRSI (who seem to be intent on developing silly rebuttals that only serve to prove their malintent, incompetence, or combination of the two). They obviously are devoid of character.I am surprised that AliExpress has apparently agreed to a refund, though 'twas I I'd not hold my breath waiting for it.It is important for consumers to "fight back" against unscrupulous manufacturers and vendors using any and all available means, it is the only way this activity can be knocked down--to sit back and proclaim "that's the way the world is now" resolves nothing--complacency never got anything fixed."...the waywardness of the simple will kill them,and the complacency of fools will destroy them"-Proverbs 1:32-

author: x86guru
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2021, 03:10:34 pm
content: Quote from: cliffyk on December 06, 2021, 02:22:38 pmI would assume that AliExpress "steps in" lots of disputes relating to FNIRSI's fictional specifications. I did provide AliExpress these facts which FNIRSI ignored:

author: cliffyk
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2021, 08:33:38 pm
content: RE: FNIRSI's "proof" video (I was bored and watched the BS again)--it also strikes me that a "HANMATEK" DSO1102 could also be a less than precision instrument--just sayin', ya' know...But that aside, their driving both 'scopes to 25 Mhz, connected in parallel via alligator clip terminated "test" leads, invalidates in numerous ways, the entire supposed "comparison". It would be interesting (but hardly worth it) to send the blasted thing off toTrescalor some other lab and have it tested. Maybe they'd volunteer to do it as a lark...

author: x86guru
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2021, 09:04:51 pm
content: Quote from: cliffyk on December 06, 2021, 08:33:38 pmNote, it's a HANMATEKDOS1102, not to be confused with aDSO1102.Here is a link to it:https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4000768225718.html?spm=a2g0o.productlist.0.0.71fe5c67p0WeoaNotice it's good for measuring "Heart". I guess it renders a picture of a heart instead of a single EKG type waveform. "Rhom bus", yup. Band limited? Inescapable...

author: cliffyk
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2021, 09:11:43 pm
content: ;I stand corrected--i actually knew that as I looked the instrument up on Amazon but for a geezer like me DOS and DSO are two entirely different things and my "semi-conscientious" took over--thanks for the correction!

author: x86guru
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2021, 04:19:49 am
content: FNIRSI was not happy that I used my Siglent 200MHz scope to show how bad the FNIRSI-5012H was at measuring a 5Vpp 25MHz signal. They requested that I use a 100MHz oscilloscope for a "fair comparison", so I used my Rigol 100MHz scope and uploaded a video showing my Rigol 100MHz scope also measures 5.0Vpp for a 25MHz 5.0Vpp. Now they are whining about the price of the equipment I used. I can't believe FNIRSI is an actual company

author: cliffyk
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2021, 10:11:41 am
content: So far this "back-and-forth" appears focused on rebutting your analysis of the toy's 25 Mhz performance. Have they ever addressed their 100 Mhz bandwidth claim directly?

author: cliffyk
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2021, 10:34:34 am
content: Saw this on Amazon, another contender for the coveted "Cheap, Not Really 100 Mhz 'scope of the Year" award--$109.99...It a nice looking little thing but I recently bought a used Hantek DSO1062B, honest-to-God 60 Mhz "handheld" (if you have BIG hands) and already have drawer full of these cheap toy 'scopes.:

author: x86guru
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2021, 01:35:25 pm
content: Quote from: cliffyk on December 07, 2021, 10:11:41 amYou nailed it, FNIRSI is a toy company. FNIRSI just says it has 100 MHz bandwidth without providing any proof. FNIRSI did state that frequency measurement ability equates to bandwidth ability. FNIRSI has consistently demonstrated gross incompetence.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2021, 04:42:30 pm
content: Quote from: x86guru on December 07, 2021, 01:35:25 pmI have no idea why you keep repeating that they're incompetent or don't know what they're doing.Look at the device in front of you, could you make one? I couldn't.Most likely the boss told them to make a 100Mhz device with 1GSamples/sec. because those were some numbers he saw in a brochure. Oh, and it had to cost $100.The engineers did what they could and the rest is damage control.You have to admit they look nice (Apple used them in a corporate video!) and they basically work.

author: x86guru
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2021, 05:04:54 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on December 07, 2021, 04:42:30 pmAgreed, it's obvious they are incompetent.Quote from: Fungus on December 07, 2021, 04:42:30 pmYes, it's a very trivial design.Quote from: Fungus on December 07, 2021, 04:42:30 pmA.K.A a toy, not to be confused with an oscilloscope.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2021, 05:17:44 pm
content: Quote from: x86guru on December 07, 2021, 05:04:54 pmA manufactured product at the FNIRSI price point? Maybe you should call Rigol/Siglent and let them know how it's done.

author: cliffyk
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2021, 05:33:42 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on December 07, 2021, 04:42:30 pmAll irrelevant points. No one here thrust their claims upon them; they are the ones that made the fanciful and bold (I am being generous) proclamations about THEIR product.Roger Ebert never made a movie, but was a well respected critic of same.Joe Biden has no prior executive management experience (never mind, bad analogy I did not mean to prove your point)...QuoteThis speaks more to Apple's ad agency's incompetence than anything else--in the little bit of the Apple blurb I watched the "lab" shots looked like some copywriter and their crew staged it with equipment pulled out of a closet--I wonder if those guys were actually engineers? They read their lines too well...

author: x86guru
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2021, 05:41:09 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on December 07, 2021, 05:17:44 pmRigol/Siglent don't make toys that I'm aware of, but Fisher-Price® might be interested.

author: cliffyk
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2021, 06:09:31 pm
content: Generation gap on display there--was I to select two shining examples of lab instrumentation they would be Tektronix and Hewlett-Packard (Agilent)--IIRC Rigol used to make some near toy like crap too, maybe FNRSI will someday get better also...

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2021, 06:21:21 pm
content: Generation gap shows, but in a different way - younger people can work with whatever tools they are given and/or can afford. Old people whine if they don't get a Tek.

author: cliffyk
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2021, 06:33:18 pm
content: Whipper-snapper...I worked 50+ years as a professional engineer, and still do my share through SCORE. I.e. I have likely adapted, modified and cajoled materials and machines longer that you have been alive!"Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you have or can get."-me-

author: BD1QMP
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2022, 02:22:53 pm
content: thank you for your continue updating! It is really helpful. The guys from that company didn't know what is bandwidth! It is a joke that use frequency to prove the analog bandwidth. After the discussion, a china small scope company change their bandwidth claim from 100MHz to 50MHz with comments (3db).

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 30, 2022, 08:01:00 pm
content: Quote from: ataradov on December 07, 2021, 06:21:21 pmI would have said the opposite. Old people were less likely to have access to test instruments like network analyzers, so had to get used to designing a circuit and doing the calculations on paper.