Chip on Apple credit card fails - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: tkamiya
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2021, 05:00:55 pm
content: I have several credit cards. Failures on mag stripes and chips are very very rare. In fact, I only recall having 1 or 2 failures in past decades.When it comes to APPLE CARD though, my first one wasn't working right after arrival. Second one failed in a months or so. Third one was bad right out of packaging, and forth one just failed after few months of use.Does anyone else experience this? Apparently, the card material is some kind of titanium. I put my card in Lether wallet, but so as all other cards. I've never seen this bad of failure rates.

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2021, 05:13:16 pm
content: Both mag and chip failed?Edit: Sorry I can see the topic says Chip.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2021, 05:22:32 pm
content: You aren't using it correctly.

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2021, 05:34:56 pm
content: Not "not using correctly" but "not holding correctly"

author: tkamiya
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2021, 06:06:30 pm
content: Mag stripe works. Just the "chip" part that fails.I've tested it at multiple shops using different readers. Once the chip fails, it doesn't work at any store. (at least I check it at 3 stores before asking for a replacement)OK, tell me about how to hold correctly, and the proper secret handshake with the casher.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2021, 06:32:57 pm
content: Quote from: tkamiya on December 11, 2021, 06:06:30 pmThe same way you correctly hold any Apple product:1. Hold it firmly over a trash can2. Release your grip3. Walk away

author: tkamiya
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2021, 06:34:27 pm
content: 1. Ha2. Haha3. Hahaha...

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2021, 06:44:13 pm
content: Well, there is an alternative way of using Apple products:don't be poor and fork out $$ for a protective case

author: GLouie
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2021, 08:31:33 pm
content: I don't know anything specifically about the Apple card, but I just removed a chip from an expired card and there's not much to go wrong - just the chip, die bonds to the contacts, and an epoxy blob. It looks to me like a woven (carbon fiber?) glue frame. Maybe a bad batch in manufacturing, unless there is something specific to Apple Card.I have wondered if thieves might try to ruin chip readers so you have to run the mag stripe.

author: eti
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2021, 08:33:20 pm
content: Get Louis Rossmann to reball it

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 11, 2021, 08:48:53 pm
content: IMHO case being metal increases the chance of ESD damage as there is a current path for a spark to jump from IC. As you insert it into PoS terminal, you hold its metal enclosure while IC is connected to a device with different electric potential.

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2021, 10:39:06 pm
content: If you have a smartcard reader you might be able to see if it responds at all.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2021, 10:43:28 pm
content: I have occasionally had a chip read failure on one of my cards (not Apple). The suggestion was to clean it a bit with a soft cloth to remove grease and fingerprints. That seemed to fix the issue for me.

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 14, 2021, 10:38:05 pm
content: Quote from: tkamiya on December 11, 2021, 06:06:30 pmI can think of encryption keys misconfiguration on card issuance side, chip bonding failures and merchants's terminals having issues with payment processing network, whatever payment processor company Apple is using for card transactions. Either one would cause multiple reports from customers. How widespread the issue is?

author: tkamiya
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 14, 2021, 10:42:32 pm
content: The card itself is issued by Goldman Sachs. I have no idea who actually manufactured and individualized cards data. I'm guessing a bad batch. 5 times is just too much failure rate. Before this, I just had one failure on ordinary VISA card.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 15, 2021, 12:39:47 am
content: The chances of that many chips failing randomly is practically zero. So two theories: 1. Something is causing damage to your cards, or 2. the chips aren’t actually damaged.Just to rule out absolutely everything: you do have the physical card enabled, right? It can be turned on and off at Will from your iPhone.

author: tkamiya
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 15, 2021, 12:43:44 am
content: 1) I have 4 different card in my wallet. Only Apple card failed and did so multiple times.2) Once it fails at a store, I test it at another store. It failed both times.3) Of course the card is enabled.Theory is great. Reality is different.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 15, 2021, 03:45:42 am
content: Quote from: tkamiya on December 15, 2021, 12:43:44 amAnother example of "quality" modern Apple design and manufacturing perhaps?

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 15, 2021, 07:44:49 am
content: Quote from: tkamiya on December 15, 2021, 12:43:44 amOk, man, breathe, it wasn’t an attack.The fact that the Apple Card is the only one to fail doesn’t rule out either of my theories.Maybe the Apple cards are more susceptible to something, such that something you — or the terminal in a shop you frequent — causes it to fail.Or maybe there’s something in the terminals at the shops you’ve tested at, such that by random chance it’s failing at those, while still would have worked elsewhere.Or maybe the chips are fine and there’s some configuration error somewhere causing them to be rejected.What we can rule out with certainty is there being any kind of widespread issues with the cards. They’ve issued millions of them, so if there were some common problem, we’d know about it.You say “of course” about the card being activated, but a lot of people don’t even realize the option exists.

author: eti
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 15, 2021, 08:15:18 am
content: Just snap it in half, stamp on it and toss it in the bin. Ridiculously over-rated nonsense. We managed perfectly well in life before Apple came along. Yeah they make some nice things, of which I’ve owned many, but they’re VASTLY hyped and over adored. The world needs a smack back down to earth and wake up from the delusion of Apple EVERYTHING.Non experts & “unboxers” speak of Apple products in terms they’re unqualified in - they say how amazing the build quality is - half of them have only a few years of experience doing YouTube videos, and they base this opinion relative to other CONSUMER goods. They don’t know the other 98% of electronic machines, inside which they’ve never seen - it would put Apple to shame.I’ll give Apple this though - at least they aren’t Samsung; now THEY are scraping the very bottom of the barrel.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 15, 2021, 10:10:09 am
content: Quote from: eti on December 15, 2021, 08:15:18 amWhat a load of biased, dishonest crap your entire comment is. One can argue many things about Apple, but the quality of the electronics is top-notch.As for doing fine without Apple: without Apple, we wouldn’t have computers as we know them. (Apple, and no one else, established the basic user interface conventions used by all modern GUIs, both mouse- or touch-driven. Xerox may have sold the first GUI computer, but its behavior is totally unlike modern GUIs.) Regardless of whether you love or hate the company, Apple did establish all of the fundamental concepts — overlapping windows, the mechanics of how we use the mouse, how menus work, etc. Without Apple, somebody else would have designed a GUI, but it’d be different from what we have today.As for snapping the card in half: good luck with that!(It’s made of solid titanium. The other titanium card, the Amex Centurion, has been around for years, and since a typical consumer can’t destroy them, you can mail them back to Amex for destruction. The Apple Card has absolutely no account information printed on it except the cardholder name — no card number, expiration, CVC, etc — and it can be enabled/disabled/canceled on the fly by app, so there’s less need for actual physical destruction.)

author: cliffyk
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 15, 2021, 01:25:27 pm
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on December 11, 2021, 06:32:57 pmWay back when the Macintosh was first introduced a PC Magazine reviewer noted that "for the first week you'll be amazed by what it can do--after that you'll be amazed by what it can't do."

author: eti
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 15, 2021, 05:38:00 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on December 15, 2021, 10:10:09 amYou don’t need to do the whole “Let me educate you on the history of Apple” schtick, - it’s tired and done to death, and we all know it.I’ve done vast amounts of reading and watching videos about Apple for 14 years, and have worked in the Apple business, have listened to “MacBreak Weekly” religiously for years too. I understand you admire them, and so do I. It was me posting when I’m tired and that never works out well.Anyone with eyes, ears and a keyboard can soon research Apple. I’ve also done a lot of research about, and have huge admiration for Jony Ive, and have read his autobiography, which is superb reading.Thanks for the lesson. 😁

author: cliffyk
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 15, 2021, 07:37:12 pm
content: Before encountering this thread I did not know there was such a thing as anApple Credit Card, and honestly do not feel my life has been any the worse because of it. My nicely made plastic CC was issued by my Credit Union (the same place that manages my retirement accounts) and works anywhere I have tried to use it. It is not a status symbol, just a tool, to me--so as long as it can survive in my wallet and do its job of substituting for cash as needed it could be made of balsa wood and I would not care.It has been compromised a couple times and promptly replaced by the Credit union (it takes < 5 minutes). THE last problem was tracked back to a Dominoes Pizza cashier of whom the manager said "Oh, her, she does not work here any more..."As to Apple product' s quality; i personally do feel qualified to comment as I have never owned an Apple product, have never felt any overwhelming need to own one nor emptiness for never having one.They do seem to have a very dedicated cult-like following and i learned long ago to not get into substantive discussions with the truly faithful--all it does is piss them off and aggravate you.

author: eti
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 15, 2021, 08:10:17 pm
content: Quote from: cliffyk on December 15, 2021, 07:37:12 pmI used to be one of those fervent, "Apple can do no wrong" types, and I see clearly now how much it must've aggravated my friends. They make great things, but as you seem to imply - so what? So have MANY companies.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 15, 2021, 09:22:35 pm
content: The history of Apple is fascinating and even I (a non-Apple user) was impressed and even lusted after some of the earlier models, like the original PowerBook with the ball mouse. Some of the first computers I ever used were the earlier Macintosh's.However Apple has come a long way since then and not all of it is positive. Apple have hardly innovated anything in the last decade or two. Their primary focus is on the packaging and what a product looks like. They are a company that sells "style" and fashionable items. Under the hood, they are really no different to the other big hardware players out there. One example of what I'm talking about is their smartphone products. Android (and Android-based phone manufacturers) have been one step ahead of Apple for quite some time. Even back in the early days when recording video and copy/paste were standard features on many phones, Apple users missed out. People largely buy Apple because they like the look of the products or maybe due to peer pressure, rather than for the features or value for money, or perhaps because they are simply stuck in their ecosystem and are unable or unwilling to change.Aside from the obvious aesthetics and the cult following that Apple provides, in 2021/2022, I'd say the one key advantage Apple has over a company like Microsoft is their MacOS operating system and that's largely owing to the fact that Microsoft made such a dogs breakfast of Windows 8, 10 and 11. Had I not taken the time to learn Linux, I probably would be typing this on a Mac right now.Those are just my thoughts. I'm not trying to sway anyone in any direction, this is just how I see it with my eyes.

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 15, 2021, 09:31:34 pm
content: So how does one test that stupid thing with a scope and/or logic analyzer to see if it's completely dead?

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 15, 2021, 10:20:00 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on December 11, 2021, 08:48:53 pm"The Titanium Apple Card With Apple Card you can make digital ‌Apple Pay‌ payments, but Apple is also providing a physical card. Since this is a credit card designed by Apple, it is, of course, unique among credit cards. It's made entirely from titanium, which is laser etched with your name."Goddamn these metal cards, they destroy credit card readers as the edges are sharp (not sure if this is specifically Apple or was another brand). The card should be the sacrificial material.It looks like the apple card is of normal thickness (0.82mm) though.

author: eti
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 15, 2021, 10:34:19 pm
content: Quote from: Halcyon on December 15, 2021, 09:22:35 pm"One example of what I'm talking about is their smartphone products. Android (and Android-based phone manufacturers) have been one step ahead of Apple for quite some time."😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂🤦🤦

author: richard.cs
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 15, 2021, 10:40:34 pm
content: Somethingis wrong here. These chips just don't normally fail, I've been using chip and pin since it was introduced here nearly 20 years ago, never had one fail, even cards that were horribly abused mechanically. Nor am I aware of anyone I know having broken one.Bad batch seems unlikely, if you've been through 5 cards it must have been over a significant period of time and a batch that big would surely have affected many others. Given it's a bit of an oddball card perhaps there's a card reader somewhere near you that kills it somehow, a bad design that shorts a power supply to the metal body or similar and lifts it to a damaging voltage relative to the contacts - easily done if you assume all cards are insulating. Or maybe the shorting of the card reader contacts as the card is inserted upsets some power supply with poor transient response and it murders the chip as it recovers. Who knows, but the conductive body is the main thing that differs from normal cards.Unless it's just some weird bug with your account and the cards are fine.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 15, 2021, 10:42:45 pm
content: Quote from: thm_w on December 15, 2021, 10:20:00 pmBearing in mind that the physical card is intended to be the backup to the primary method of using Apple Pay (contactless via phone/watch), I don’t agree with your assessment that the cards are wildly damaging to terminals. I will tell you whatisdamaging, though: idiot people (cashiers and consumers alike) who think they need to ram a card into a reader like a gorilla, or that a magstripe needs to be blasted past the reader head at supersonic speeds.If anything damages the contacts of the chip readers, it'll be something that snags them. The Apple Card’s edges are slightly beveled, and subjectively feel less sharp than those of many a plastic card, which are often not cut particularly cleanly.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 15, 2021, 10:50:58 pm
content: Quote from: richard.cs on December 15, 2021, 10:40:34 pmExactly.But frankly, given that literally millions of these cards have been issued (3 million accounts, they say. And while the physical card does need to be requested as a separate step, I can’t imagine that many account holders haven’t requested it, given that it’s free and is an unusually handsome card), if Apple’s metal cards had inherent electrical compatibly issues, there would be widespread reports of them, and there aren’t. (Not to mention that Amex has been issuing metal cards for well over a decade, and it doesn’t suffer from compatibility problems, either.)Hence my suspicion that there’s something weird with the OP’s account or situation, be it something they’re doing without realizing it, or a shop they frequent that has a terminal that is somehow frying those chips, or something their post office is doing, etc.

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 15, 2021, 11:04:08 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on December 15, 2021, 10:42:45 pmIf they are properly beveled, that is great, Apple may have designed it well. But I've seenhundredsof damaged credit card readers (plastic tab going in was gouged), where I tried myself with a new plastic card to reproduce the problem and was unable to. Making me think there are metal cards out there with razor sharp edges (or bent metal cards?).Don't disagree people ram them in, that is also part of the problem for sure.

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 15, 2021, 11:23:12 pm
content: Quote from: magic on December 15, 2021, 09:31:34 pmYou can use a card reader, which will at least show whether it responds to commands and basic inquiries.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 16, 2021, 02:08:56 am
content: Quote from: eti on December 15, 2021, 10:34:19 pmThis exactly the response most people come to expect from die-hard Apple fanboys. Emoticons with no substance. It's the online equivalent of when someone chuckles because they feel uncomfortable, nervous or don't know what to say next, particularly when you ask them "What exactly has Apple innovated recently?".

author: Bassman59
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2021, 02:22:43 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on December 15, 2021, 09:22:35 pmClearly you've never used one of the M1- or M1 Pro-based machines.QuoteIt would help if you opened your eyes.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 16, 2021, 02:32:09 am
content: Quote from: Bassman59 on December 16, 2021, 02:22:43 amI have two of them sitting right next to me right now. So yes, yes I have. Time will tell how reliable and well built they are...

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2021, 02:48:41 am
content: The chips on my Visa cards used to die quite often when visiting EMC labs. I lost 3 or 4 before I realised there was a connection with my lab work, I tended to be doing some pretty extreme discharge testing, but I was still surprised to find the cards in my wallet, in my trouser pocket trouser failing.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 16, 2021, 03:13:41 am
content: Quote from: tooki on December 15, 2021, 10:42:45 pmSpeaking of abuse, a couple of times I have seen a customer use the tap'n'go process - wherein they felt the need to press the card into the screen very hard and bending the card itself almost 90º. It made me wince at what might be happening to the chip inside.

author: mc172
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2021, 03:26:19 am
content: Quote from: coppice on December 16, 2021, 02:48:41 amI don't buy it. I've done a bit of discharge testing myself varying from human body static, to induced current from lightning strikes near CATV/networking gear, all the way up to direct lightning strikes on conductive parts of aircraft and no matter which one you choose, you're never anywhere near it when the "main event" happens for safety reasons, the gap just gets bigger the more exotic you go. These tests have always been conducted inside a Faraday cage where everyone is taken out for a number of reasons - mainly to de-pollute the spectrum but also it's seriously dangerous to be anywhere near it.I've worked at places that have their own EMC lab, and at places where they've outsourced the EMC testing. Something I've seen across the board is that EMC labs both respect a quiet spectrum and also do not contribute to a noisy one. Put more brutally, running an EMC lab doesn't give you free reign to operate a spark gap transmitter - any credible lab will run discharge tests inside a shielded enclosure for obvious reasons.If you don't like that response, I've previously put, or should I say dropped, some of my cards (one of which was my everyday Visa card) and my phone into a field with a strength of about 30V/m at 10 GHz and they worked fine afterwards.

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2021, 03:45:30 am
content: I once fried a chip card in the kitchen mictowave oven for a few seconds and it was still working when tested after. But this is not the same as static discharge.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2021, 08:12:38 pm
content: Quote from: mc172 on December 16, 2021, 03:26:19 amI wasn't thinking of extreme on the lightning scale, but extreme on the hand held scale. Take the hand held discharge guns from people like Noise Ken and Schaffner, and just keep running them for hours, sweeping over every detail of a piece of equipment, searching for vulnerabilities. Most people doing formal approval testing use those guns in a very benign way, usually with the gun in a clamp and nobody near.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 16, 2021, 11:30:23 pm
content: On the subject of chip cards, I've never have one fail me. That being said, inserting a card in a reader is seldom done these days in Australia as most bank cards have NFC capabilities. They seem to be pretty resilient, even after they've been through the wash a few times ;-)

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 17, 2021, 12:06:31 am
content: This one is all metal, so can't have RF antenna inside.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 17, 2021, 12:20:28 am
content: Quote from: richard.cs on December 15, 2021, 10:40:34 pmYou have to"insert"your card???Or are you talking about ATM machines?

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 17, 2021, 02:29:18 am
content: Quote from: vk6zgo on December 17, 2021, 12:20:28 amIn the UK there is a limit of £100 on contactless transactions, but not so long ago it was £30. Any more than that you have to put your card in the card reader.Those who are paranoid might prefer to have contactless payments disabled and use the card reader all the time. Contactless payment doesn't work on UK cards unless you enable it first.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 17, 2021, 06:42:28 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on December 16, 2021, 02:08:56 amIt’s the appropriate response for a patently ridiculous statement like claiming Apple’s phones arebehindAndroid. Their performance, for many years now, has been two generations behind (as in, whenever the brand new, fastest Android phone comes out, it’s only catching up withlast year’siPhone).Quote from: Halcyon on December 16, 2021, 02:32:09 amYep. But build quality wasn’t what you were talking about. You said Apple was “behind”, which is utter nonsense.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 17, 2021, 12:57:40 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on December 17, 2021, 02:29:18 amThere is a contactless limit on Oz cards, but it is pretty high.From memory, the last time I went over it, I was buying a battery lawnmower.I still used the contactless method, but had to enter my PIN as well.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 18, 2021, 05:13:45 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on December 17, 2021, 02:29:18 amI keep going in shops in the UK to spend maybe 80 pounds. I waft my Barclays debit card over the reader, and it says the payment is rejected because the limit for contactless payments is 100 pounds. I push the card into the slot and complete the transaction. I haven't done anything about this, because I can still pay without problems.

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2021, 01:57:35 am
content: You better keep it that way. If you lose your card and someone finds it they can use it but the damage will be limited to the per transaction and cumulative limits set on the account. This is the risk banks are willing to take for contactless payments trying to balance customer convenience and loss caused by lost and stolen cards. For amounts exceeding the contactless limit people have to enter their PINs which only they know.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2021, 02:52:33 am
content: Quote from: Bud on December 19, 2021, 01:57:35 amThe increase to 100 pounds per contactless transaction was imposed by the UK government. I understand why they would want to regulate a maximum, but I have no idea what they imposed this increased limit on everyone.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2021, 06:10:54 am
content: Quote from: coppice on December 19, 2021, 02:52:33 amI'm sure you do have an idea why they increased the limit, you just don't agree with the logic?

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2021, 07:29:57 am
content: It's about this point in the thread that we will probably find out the OP works with 100W 13mhz transmitters.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2021, 06:57:34 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on December 19, 2021, 06:10:54 amThe Chancellor of the Exchequer was having a bad day, and wanted to be a PITA?