Going to buy FLIR A325sc - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Ribster
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2019, 10:35:25 am
content: So i am looking to buy a thermal imaging camera for my PCB design work.I've looked at the ETS320, but i don't think that gives correct value/moneyThe A315 looks nice. Comes in at 8.8k EUR without VAT.The A615 is 16.3k EUR without VAT, but is a bit overkill i think.The A315 has an 25 degrees lens built in. With autofocus.Any experiences + remarks ?Edit: after research... think i might go with the A65sc

author: Cat
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2019, 11:01:13 am
content: The datasheet mentions 0.4 m minimum focus distance. Depending on the size of your PCB and components this is probably to far away.When comparing with the E60 (25°, maybe the same optical assembly) I needed the additional IR lens (f = 10 mm, 45°) for decent visibility of 0402 components.

author: bugi
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2019, 02:24:24 pm
content: That datasheet 0.4m may or may not be accurate, though maybe FLIR is more accurate with their specs. As an example, TE-Q1's datasheet gives minimum 0.4m with the 13mm/1.0 lens, yet in practice it could be focused down to around 10cm (maybe even closer, but I didn't try screwing it more), at which the resolution is certainly good enough PCB observation (and then some).Depending on one's requirements, I'd say the 8.8k EUR (+ VAT!) ("Affordable", LOL), for a 320x240 pixel system is like 10x too expensive, considering that even the TE-Q1 (or any of the other cheap dongles that can focus close enough) would spot the hot components and traces. I wonder what extra goodness the FLIR cameras have that justify the >9000€ extra cost. Ok, motorized focus... eh, for a running PCB observation, I'm not sure that will be of much use, and certainly not worth thousands. 60Hz at 16-bit... framerate is certainly nice (though not necessarily needed for PCB stuff), but the 16-bit is likely closer to 8 bits of useful data and 8 bits of useless noise. (With the caveat that I couldn't find example photos with low contrast to check the practical noise, the theoretical/datasheet numbers would indicate it isn't any better compared to cheaper competition.)Not trying to promote TE-Q1 in particular, I'm more pointing out that for personal PCB work ~1k EUR vs. ~11k EUR for practically same benefits is something to consider at least twice.

author: Ribster
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2019, 03:29:22 pm
content: I would like to have something dedicated that i can rely on for years to come.The funny thing is, it is without any stand. It does have 4mm posts, so i guess mounting it to a tripod would be the best option.I've looked at the ETS-320. But damn what a joke that is. The A315 also leverages the software capabilities. So there is that.

author: bugi
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2019, 03:58:54 pm
content: Quote from: Ribster on June 03, 2019, 03:29:22 pmNothing prevents buying a phone and a dongle and dedicate those for the purpose. Buying 5 dongles while at it so they will certainly last years to come, even if one or 4 break (and assuming none would be replaced under warranty). And the total budget would still be less than half of the FLIR. Thermal expert even sells a kit specifically intended for PCB stuff. Though, no idea how good that kit really is, seems more like just the stand and the proper USB adapter for connecting with PC (instead of phone).Tripod as-is isn't a good mount for the purpose, its legs will be in the way. Some tripods come with a beam that can be tilted or switched to horizontal nicely, but those typically won't give close enough distances. And the legs will still be "always in the way", somehowThere are stands made for this kind of purpose though, with flat heavy bottom etc.(Personally, I'm considering an idea to mount a dongle on those multi-joint arms for lamps (I've got couple old extra lamps to make use of, just ditching the lamp end and making some kind adapter) and run the cable to laptop with the software. The dongles are so light-weight that the arm would hold one well.)QuoteYeah, decent software may be a reason. But I'm not sure if PCB checking requires any fancy features that the cheaper choices' software wouldn't give.

author: Vipitis
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2019, 04:23:59 pm
content: Make sure you need such a high grade camera. You may also want to take a look at eBay for saving a huge amount of money. This is one offer that comes to mind -https://www.ebay.de/itm/FLIR-A615-DEMO-CAMERA/153416475904and there will be more once you start looking. It is a serious investment and if you don't need 60hz radiometric streaming with 50mK calibration, there are much cheaper options-

author: Ribster
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2019, 07:46:36 pm
content: While i do understand what you are saying, i just don't like the phone combination. I'd like to have a decent dedicated setup that's sturdy.You have tripod style mounting with lockable arms. So positioning would be easy i guess.I can always roll my own by welding something, but i'd rather not go to the effort.I wasn't aware about the TE-Q1 actually!

author: Ribster
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 07, 2019, 11:05:07 am
content: So i've looked into it, and FLIR also has the A65sc kit ones.The sc suffix apparently stands for the term that the software is included.There are 7,5hz and 30hz options.It comes with a stand on the desk, so no extra mounting is required.I have a quote for 8829 EUR ex from a supplier. But found it online for 8654 EUR ex.I think i will go with this option...Any suggestions ?

author: Max Planck
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 07, 2019, 02:29:44 pm
content: Quote from: Ribster on June 03, 2019, 10:35:25 amI would think twice before choosing that option. A65 has a relatively small housing, which can lead to interesting effects when it comes to heat dissipation. Test it first thoroughly, if you can.Max

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 07, 2019, 03:18:22 pm
content: It is worth bearing in mind that the A65 is basically a FLIR TAU2 core in a Ethernet connected package.The TAU2 is a very nice quality imaging core and used in many portable applications due to its compact dimensions and decent performance. It comes from the Indigo Alpha/Omega (FLIR Micron/A10)/Photon lineage and is well sorted. The Axx series are what I would call ‘budget’ compact cameras for industry and science. The “SC” suffix means “Science” version and includes the stand, software and manual focus tool. It is worth noting that the A65 is a sort of fixed focus camera in that it does not have a manual focus ring. A tool is used to set the focus to suit the deployment and is not intended to be used often, unlike a true manual focus camera.The Industrial and Science grade static thermal cameras used to basically be adaptions of the Industrial handheld thermal cameras such as the PM, P and S series units. An example is the A40. This is a very capable auto focus Industrial and Science use static camera that included local controls for setup and use. It incorporates the essential analogue, Ethernet and alarm outputs to provide the required versatility. The difference between these types of industrial/science cameras and the Axx series is the microbolomter size/performance and lens system quality. They are the ‘big brother’ to the likes of the TAU2 microbolomter and it’s lens systems. In demanding applications the larger Axxx series cameras would be preferable to the Axx series. To see what the A65 is likely capable of, research the TAU2 640 and look at its imaging performance.In your application the A65sc kit may be perfect for your needs. The TAU2 is a nice core as I have already stated. It would be worth asking for a demonstration before spending your money though. You appear to have deep pockets.... make sure you spend that money wisely. My lovely A40 is in perfect condition and cost me £250Second user cameras are vastly cheaper than buying new from a FLIR but I do understand some users needs to buy new.Fraser

author: Ribster
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 07, 2019, 11:26:29 pm
content: Fraser,Wow. Thanks a bunch for the extended description!I'm going to look into this a bit further.I came across the A325sc setup as well, which then means that it's a sience package with the software.I've got a business, so i need to balance my time versus the output that i am expecting.I do have quite a lot of power design work in front of me, and i want to invest in the right tool. I don't mind investing the correct price for a well engineered piece of kit.It's a difficult balance. I want to have the capability to offer a design assurance service to my clients that under x load conditions my design performs as expected, with correct analysis backing everything up.

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 07, 2019, 11:44:09 pm
content: The A325 is a very nice camera with decent 320 x 240 pixel resolution. It is motorised auto or manual focus but I could not see a minimum focus distance so you need to check that specification. FLIR offer a supplementary close up lens but, in my experience, they can be very expensive. Adequate close focus performance is essential for PCB inspection and thermal profiling.If the close focus capability of the A325 is adequate, you will not be disappointed with it as a static thermal camera. It is basically the latest version of my A40 cameraFraser

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 08, 2019, 12:09:02 am
content: I just checked the user manual for the A325......https://graftek.biz/system/files/8424/original/FLIR_A3XX_and_A3XX_sc_Manual.pdf?1475349941In that manual it states the FOV is 25 x 18.8 Degrees with a minimum focus distance of 40cm (1.31 Feet)I personally prefer to work a bit closer to the PCB than 40cm but much depends upon the objects of interest on the PCB and their size. I tend to operate at 100mm to 150mm (4” x 6”). Such would only be possible with the A325 with a supplemental lens attached. As stated, such are available from FLIR, but they are expensive and the camera is calibrated for a specific lens to ensure accurate measurements are maintained. The supplemental lens is easily attached and removed as required. It is a bayonet mount on the A3xx series.Datasheethttps://www.flirmedia.com/MMC/THG/Brochures/RND_010/RND_010_US.pdfBuying a new thermal camera can be a bit if a nightmare ! The good news us that FLIR do offer demos of their cameras so you can test its real world performance and match to your needs.Fraser

author: Ribster
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 08, 2019, 12:47:10 am
content: FraserThanks a bunch man for the input. I have some GaN mosfets i would like to characterize that will be in a lot of designs.So those chips will be 2 x 2 mm die size BGA ones.I'm having a hard time getting a hold of some good resellers of FLIR actually.Maybe it's easier to just find a trade show where flir is located, contact them to bring the gear there and bring my own boards.I should make a decision at the end of the summer, so i still have some time.

author: Max Planck
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 08, 2019, 07:49:32 am
content: Quote from: Ribster on June 08, 2019, 12:47:10 amRibster,I think what we are missing here, is a more specific description of what you want to achieve and why.Without it, it is quite difficult to give you a good advice.Max

author: Ribster
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 08, 2019, 08:29:15 pm
content: Quote from: Max Planck on June 08, 2019, 07:49:32 amMax, thanks for the reply.It's actually quite simple. I need a setup like the ETS320.I want a dedicated setup to view working assembled boards that i designed for thermal behaviour + functional inspection after a 10 prototype assembly runs.The ETS320 lacks functionality on a lot of levels + i want to have it somewhat future proof.The option to have multiple lenses to account for multiple working distances is something i truly value.With the point and shoot thermal camera's i miss having the big working distance + not having the analysis software (i might be wrong that they do support the Flir IR software pack)So i want a decent piece of workbench kit, where i invest some money, wisely, while having the option in the future, when i need it, to invest in more lenses to support the design cases i have in the future.Currently the A325sc is the best option that caters for those criteria from what i currently know. The A65sc is the cheaper option, but lacks upgradeability in the future.

author: TooQik
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2019, 11:33:29 pm
content: Here's a cheaper price on the A65sc out of the UK:https://www.tester.co.uk/flir-a65sc-thermal-camera-benchtop-kitI can't comment on the company as I've never bought anything from them, maybe someone else here has experience with buying from them.Edit: actually their price is marginally more expensive as I didn't read the price correctly and thought it was in Euro not Pounds. My apologies.

author: Max Planck
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2019, 01:54:40 pm
content: Ribster,I asked my question because you wrote:QuoteUnless I misunderstood it, you will not be able to do that with a thermographic camera. The camera will give you only some information about the transistor packaging surface temperature, whereas the key is the temprature of the semiconductor die that is hidden inside. What you need is thermal impedance measurement.Max

author: Ribster
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2019, 07:13:37 am
content: Quote from: Max Planck on June 10, 2019, 01:54:40 pmHey Max. Thanks for the reply!Well i'm not designing chips. I'm making pcbs / systems where i use silicon, like that GaN mosfet.Looking at the spreading of the heat on top and bottom is what interests me.Also the dynamic response to dynamic varying loads, what this does to the thermal response.The problem is the focus distance and resolution that i don't get with the normal thermal imagers.I'm going to research that thermal impedance measurement tho. Never heard of it before.

author: Ribster
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2019, 12:09:11 pm
content: Quick update. The reseller is going to send me a A655sc as a demo unit to test. I asked them to have the setup for the 25 degree angle that i will have on my A325sc.I can set the A655sc in windowing mode, so that it reflects the resolution for the A325sc.Going to need to find a decent 4mm mounting setup to mount the thing.. Guess tripod connection stuff will do the job.

author: Ribster
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 17, 2019, 01:23:39 am
content: So i have had my demo this week of an A655sc.The need for a thermal camera is clearly necessary for my line of work.Although i'm not convinced the A325sc is a good fit for me.Having a new A65sc setup is also 8K EUR. Between the A325sc and the A65sc it's not that interesting.I'm going to use the thermal camera to look for spreading and hotspots.For hotspot measurement, i can always add thermocouples for monitoring.I guess having a bit of kit with this pricetag is a bit overkill.Having the smartphone kind of thermal camera's is not something i like, i'd rather have something that can be mounted on a tripod-kind of a stand.Quote from: Fraser on June 07, 2019, 03:18:22 pmI need to be able to write off the purchase on my company, else i won't do it.But looking for a smaller A40-kind of thermal camera with a decent lens + software could be the best option to get started.Is the A40 camera the best place to start looking ? Other suggestions?