Fake $9 Chinese Intel 8087 chip from eBay - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 14, 2019, 09:09:13 pm
content: I doubt it's fake, much more likely it's a genuine 8087 used pull that has been cleaned up, blacktopped and re-marked and sold as new.

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 14, 2019, 09:14:42 pm
content: It could be a remarked one from later, or even a pre-production sample. Given that it seems to behave identically to the "real" one, and the fact that the Chinese probably wouldn't bother actually cloning the functionality, I suspect it's not really "fake"... since the latter brings to mind remarked completely different ICs and reimplementations (e.g. the FTDI USB-serial converters.)

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 14, 2019, 09:32:52 pm
content: Apparently there was a Soviet clone of the 8087, otherwise real ones were made by both AMD and Cyrix. I would bet that the sellers of these "fake" ones simply take a batch of whatever variety of 8087 chips they can get, clean up the scratched up and worn looking tops, give them a fresh coat of paint and new markings. I'm not sure why some Chinese sellers decide this is a better idea than just selling used pulls but I've seen it on a variety of occasions.

author: legacy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 16, 2019, 05:57:55 am
content: edit:my posts were misunderstood so I am going to delete them, except this one.I wrote a public topic to apology!

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 16, 2019, 11:28:09 am
content: Quote from: legacy on April 16, 2019, 10:23:04 amSo, western countries outsource manufacturing to China and China is at fault?Quote from: legacy on April 16, 2019, 05:57:55 amLighten up Francis.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 16, 2019, 12:16:11 pm
content: Quote from: blueskull on April 16, 2019, 10:56:28 amWell, China could put regulations in place, and fines. Get caught selling counterfeit products, have your entire inventory seized and destroyed and pay a hefty fine. Sell products not compliant with the safety standards they claim, ditto.I think the Chinese government will eventually put such regulations in place, when they realize that the bad reputation hurts exports. (Ifit does...)

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 16, 2019, 01:27:28 pm
content: Quote from: ebastler on April 16, 2019, 12:16:11 pmChina could do many things. Everybody else could do many things to make the world a better place for all. Unfortunately most people and most countries only care mainly about themselves. The victims of stealing complain about the lack of morality of the thieves but they forget they made their fortunes by stealing.It would be nice to live in a world where nobody steals or cheats. Unfortunately, humans will trample over others for very little personal benefit.We complain about China but if we were in their place we would do exactly the same. In fact, we have done the same or worse.Countries that are stricter about preventing pirating and swindling are not like that because they are more moral, they are like that because they are the ones who have more to lose. Morality is just the excuse they made up and it only cuts the other way.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 16, 2019, 01:35:24 pm
content: @soldar - not sure why you make that strawman argument. I don't expect China to regulate in order "to make the world a better place". I have explained why I consider regulations a realistic option for the future in my second paragraph, which you conveniently neglected to quote.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 16, 2019, 01:45:20 pm
content: This is same anywhere. So many whiners who don't understand international trade. Don't buy local market stuff on foreign market unless you're stupid or very very very wise and know the market and business customs very very very well. Only reason you do this is so you don't have to pay for supply chain accountability.Don't go to China and buy a FTDI or AVR chip. Buy a CH340 or STM instead.

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 16, 2019, 02:17:56 pm
content: Quote from: ebastler on April 16, 2019, 01:35:24 pmSorry if I offended you. My post was not intended to contradict yours in any way, just some thoughts that came to my mind after reading your post. Again, sorry if it looked like I was arguing with you.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 16, 2019, 02:33:04 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on April 16, 2019, 01:45:20 pmThat or you can afford the occasional pitfalls: loss due to shipment, unsuitable storage conditions, delays, etc.To the topic at hand, is the 8087 really sought after? To me it is the type of device that is non-viable economically to clone given the very small market it caters. That or computerphiles are paying top dollar on these, thus increasing the margins quite astronomically.

author: aandrew
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 16, 2019, 03:54:18 pm
content: Quote from: blueskull on April 16, 2019, 06:14:12 amI'm not disputing what you've said, but I'm genuinely curious how you've come to know this.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 16, 2019, 04:15:23 pm
content: I really don't think it's worth getting all worked up about. If you're buying dirt cheap parts from China you have to be careful, but you can get a lot of perfectly good stuff there that would be prohibitively expensive to get any other way. The best way to combat the fake stuff is to be sensible about what you buy, and then ask for a refund for every single fake item, no matter how trivial the cost. Selling fakes is economically viable because so many people just cut their losses and forget about it.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 16, 2019, 05:17:27 pm
content: China will protect intellectual property and trade rules when it is to their benefit. When they were catching up on technology it wasn't. The situation may be ambiguous now, but in the very near future China will have more to lose than to gain by playing fast and loose with the rules and we will see them complaining about India or Brazil or Congo or whoever.

author: technix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2019, 05:15:48 am
content: Being Chinese I feel a bit offended by this, the whole categorizing China as a whole as a counterfeit s**thole thing. There are amoral thieves and there are also good folks doing honest business. I have to risk not being able to get my products through customs to mark them “Made in Shanghai”, just because a few thieves in Guangdong and Fujian decided to f**k up the Chinese brand.I am also very angry about the fakers. I have also encountered fake chips - STM32F303 even. That chip almost fried my board by shorting out 3.3V power rail to GND.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2019, 05:22:23 am
content: Well, that's stereotypes for you, generally there's a kernel of truth behind them but that doesn't mean they apply to everyone. Back in the 60s Japan had the reputation for pumping out poorly made junk and by the late 70s Japanese goods were the cream of the crop. The same may happen to China eventually.Also the consumers in the US and other nations who demand rock bottom prices are at least as much to blame as anyone else. The race to the bottom will continue as long as ignorant consumers continue paying money for crap rather than spending more for quality goods.

author: technix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2019, 05:32:32 am
content: If you want to buy dirt cheap chips from China you must 1) live in China and 2) speak Chinese in order not to be bitten by fakes. Living in China allows you to have fast turnaround time when something is acting weird, and speaking Chinese allows you to actually dispute the seller. Or just buy from LCSC which is (so far) reliable and ships fast.

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2019, 07:01:24 am
content: Quote from: technix on April 17, 2019, 05:15:48 amI am sure you are well informed of what the good people of Guangdong and Fujian think and say about the people of Shanghai and Beijing.

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2019, 07:40:26 am
content: Quote from: james_s on April 17, 2019, 05:22:23 amChina is already making a lot of high quality goods. The are making electronics for western brands. They are making mobile phones for the biggest phone market in the world: China. The are making plenty of telecomm gear. Judging an entire country by a small segment of ebay is just silly. It would be like judging America by how many people are getting mugged in certain parts of Washington DC.I was very much impressed by the crossover SUVTrumpchi GS8. nobody has heard of it outside of China but it is a very good car. The Chinesemanufacturerwill probably soon be selling abroad but, for now, they have a huge market in their own country.Quote from: james_s on April 17, 2019, 05:22:23 amAnd this is not only restricted to things bought in China. The quality of some things in America is in free fall for the same reason. Air travel is getting to be terrible in every way because airlines realize passengers only look at price when buying. The result is crappy travel. shall we blame all Americans for that? Well, in a way yes, because that is the result of what they demand. Same thing with phone service.

author: CJay
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2019, 09:46:40 am
content: Quote from: soldar on April 16, 2019, 11:28:09 amPlease tell me that's a Stripes reference?

author: technix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2019, 09:50:11 am
content: Quote from: soldar on April 17, 2019, 07:01:24 amYeah.Well there is a reason behind AliExpress (the international facing one, not the domestic facing Taobao) have a few cities in Guangdong blacklisted from being allowed to sell on it. And Alibaba (the company behind AliExpress and Taobao) is located in Hangzhou, Zhejiang. Let’s say that those people are THAT bad even fellow Chinese can not tolerate them.

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2019, 10:22:11 am
content: Quote from: CJay on April 17, 2019, 09:46:40 amYup. I was wondering if someone would get it.

author: Kilo Tango
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2019, 09:37:32 pm
content: Fake bits pollute the supply chain, you can't tell what is good or bad.Once upon a time, I worked for a long established british company that made .... Their products were very good, had been going for a long time, they created a lot of the main technology and manufacturing products used in medicine manufacture. They used one main OEM to build control boards. Unfortunately one of these boards would occasionally blow up, an LM358 opamp, specified as a Nat Semi part, would go short across the power lines, the design used a thermal limiting fuse, and when you pump 50W of power into a short circuit chip it cooks the PCB destroying it.Trouble is the evidence is now destroyed. I strongly doubt the failed component was of National Semiconductor in origin, trouble is the pinning for this chip is commonly used, anyone could take any jelly bean opamp made by some crap far east company, relabel it as Nat Semi and the ISO9000 OEM would buy it cause it was cheap. Reputation got damaged, once a new £500,000 machine failed after 3 months. The word got around.The company is no more, another death in british manufacturing ability, all because some sh*t OEM saved a few pence.That is one of the consequences of allowing the component supply chain to become polluted with crap.This will keep happening until people do not let price be the only sourcing driver. I buy important bits from Farnell, 'cause their supply route is traceable and they work.If only Engineers control the whole manufacturing process.Ken

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2019, 10:21:06 pm
content: Quote from: Kilo Tango on April 17, 2019, 09:37:32 pmEven parts from Farnell and other reputable suppliers occasionally are fakes. There are bad actors all over the world gaming the system and the best efforts of those who try are not totally sufficient to stop them.You are still right to buy from a reputable source. Your odds of getting what you paid for are far higher, and there is some recourse when failures occur.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 17, 2019, 10:30:20 pm
content: Quote from: Kilo Tango on April 17, 2019, 09:37:32 pmWait, asinglemachine failed and reputation got damaged to the point company gone belly-upjust because of that? This is BS nonsense. If this was true, none of expensive Laboratory equipment manufacturers I work with would be alive. As minimum you would need to offer atrocious customer support on top of that and have tons of other problems with a company.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 18, 2019, 12:19:40 am
content: Even a chip that severely burns up does not destroy all the evidence, even just an X-ray of the lead frame can reveal a fake. Beyond that you can decap the IC and examine what remains of the die. Failing that find another sample of the IC from the same lot and inspect that. If a company making such expensive gear cannot keep track of the parts that come in then that is their fault. Also if the power supply is capable of pumping such high current into the board then there should be appropriately sized local protection on the various power rails. Even good quality genuine semiconductors fail shorted occasionally.

author: CJay
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 18, 2019, 04:59:06 am
content: Quote from: wraper on April 17, 2019, 10:30:20 pmIf it's even 1% true I'm just happy that a company who's design and quality processes were so woefully piss poor is now out of the pharmaceutical manfacturing chain

author: OwO
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 18, 2019, 07:11:40 am
content: The counterfeit parts issue is way overblown, I have bought over 100 different part numbers over the last 5 years from "shady" sources like taobao, used ~1000 taobao parts in products, and have not encountered a single instance of a fake part with off specs that I can detect, or a single report of malfunction of my products. I do statistical QC of incoming parts prior to assembly, and more strict QC on every finished product.If you have chips randomly blowing up I'll bet with 99% chance that it's an issue with your design and not "fake" parts. Power supply transients, input transients, ESD, or some other form of overstress are likely. If you are selling a $500k product do you not offer warranty? I can't see how a single failure can do much harm to your business unless you have nonexistent warranty program or customer support, or something more seriously wrong with the business or product design (i.e.inadequate interlocks, which leads to bodily harm when your product malfunctions).

author: technix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 18, 2019, 01:42:48 pm
content: Quote from: legacy on April 18, 2019, 12:15:44 pmUnless you have a lot of extra cash, boycotting China will increase your living cost and decrease your choice of lifestyle. Instead of blindly boycotting China, a better strategy is practise extreme caution when buying from China.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 18, 2019, 04:38:55 pm
content: Quote from: technix on April 18, 2019, 01:42:48 pmI did not understand legacy's post to advocate "boycotting" China. He merely said that one can do without the shitty products. And I agree: My lifestyle certainly won't suffer if I can avoid badly made, annoying, essentially "disposable" products.That being said, I very much enjoy my Rigol and Siglent equipment. And I am of course aware that a lot of highly reputable "Western" brands have their products produced in China as well.

author: technix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 19, 2019, 11:52:31 am
content: Quote from: legacy on April 18, 2019, 03:24:21 pmBe aware that such speech posted online can lead to Chinese people boycotting DTB or even EEVblog. China is a country that has a long history of incrimination of speech, and people do get imprisoned and tortured IRL for certain types of speech.There are high quality products made in China - it is very likely that your computer and your phone, if it is built in the last decade, will be made in China or at least contains parts made in China. You need to practice extreme caution when buying from China here, just like your sincerely here. AliExpress is a bit shady although Alibaba is trying to shake that image. LCSC is reputable although can be a bit on the expensive side.As of that statement, the source is a2007 experiment an American journalist did.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 19, 2019, 04:05:39 pm
content: Quote from: blueskull on April 19, 2019, 03:44:27 pmThat won't prevent from buying shit. I know enough of wealthy people who buy cheap shit.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 19, 2019, 05:01:21 pm
content: I'm confused.You seem to have discovered brand new social phenomenon. People that lie and sell you things that are different from what they led you to believe.. A shady, lying merchant, that will say anything to get your money and then runs away before you realize you vere conned.And you never had experienced that before but from these damn Ebay Chinaman...Fascinating.

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 19, 2019, 09:38:14 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on April 14, 2019, 09:32:52 pmYes, it happens and it pisses me a lot because sometimes I wouldn't even mind getting used parts but I would rather have them with original markings.As for why, obviously NOS fetches higher prices, so why not?For vintage Western parts it's safe bet that most of those offered on auction sites in China are used so I always shop with this assumption and don't even bother giving negative feedback for that. However, fake markings result in "counterfeit item" dispute from me and I ask for a partial refund due to the decreased value of such mutilated chips and because I want to know what they really are.Although I must say I've seen one AliExpress vendor who claims to specialize in unobtainium parts and charges a lot for them, so given Ali's escrow system I think there is some chance it's for real. Or maybe no one ordered anything from them yet.Quote from: legacy on April 16, 2019, 10:23:04 amDon't kid yourself, there are non-Chinese importers who sell fake chips in Europe. I got fake NE5532 (of two different kinds), DS18B20, PL2303 in Poland. I saw obvious fakes sold by eBay vendors in other countries too. Some probably know what they are doing and don't give a damn, others may be deluding themselves that they are getting real chips, others don't even know.Quote from: legacy on April 19, 2019, 04:43:29 pmWrong, I bought some fake PL2303. They are good UARTs and the fakes are OK and Prolific wouldn't sell me the real thing.Quote from: legacy on April 19, 2019, 04:43:29 pmWon't be the first, won't be the last, won't change the world

author: technix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 20, 2019, 05:22:04 am
content: Quote from: ebastler on April 16, 2019, 12:16:11 pmThere are regulations, but the enforcement... First off there are bribery. Then the local government might be more interested in saving face than busting some fakes that affected only a few people. Then there is general government laziness. Also most Chinese government officials don't speak any language other than Chinese - in fact it is legally required for any complaints you want to file to be in Chinese in the first place.Boycotting will not get you anywhere, since the government can just shut all your speech off by claiming you are "foreign entities trying to disturb the Socialist Market Economy."This is why I am saying that if you want to do business on AliExpress, you need to speak Chinese.Quote from: blueskull on April 19, 2019, 10:02:50 pmEven western company make those entry-level to "acceptable" quality products in China. Fluke 107 anyone? When you are building products to a price point, the pennies and dimes saved by not having to ship materials and components internationally when manufacturing in China means raw profit. When the price goes up 10x you enter the premium tier, when cost comes secondary and build quality comes first. I have to admit Chinese made products doesn't have the best build quality in the world, but passable quality is adequate 80% of the time anyway.

author: CJay
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 20, 2019, 08:09:12 am
content: Quote from: legacy on April 19, 2019, 04:43:29 pmMate, you need to calm down a bit, you sound like a spoiled little brat.BTW, do your 'influencer' contacts that we wouldn't know go to a different youtube?Fill your boots though, open yourself a YT channel and rant all you like, I'm sure you'll make a *huge* impression and crash the Chinese economy all by yourself {/sarcasm}

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 20, 2019, 08:32:50 am
content: Quote from: CJay on April 20, 2019, 08:09:12 amHey, careful there -- you might get yourself banned from the DTB website, and that would be painful, wouldn't it?

author: CJay
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 20, 2019, 09:28:58 am
content: Quote from: ebastler on April 20, 2019, 08:32:50 amIt would be difficult to quantify the pain I would feel if DTB were to ban me.Mainly because I'd need a larger particle accelerator than the LHC to locate it.

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 20, 2019, 01:54:50 pm
content: The OPThat guy sounds like a naive, idealistic and simplistic view of the world where everything should be the way it should be but that is not the way the real world works. Firstly people disagree on what way things "should be". Then people and countries abide by the rules they have to and overlook what they can get away with. People and countries lie, steal and cheat if they feel they can benefit from it. Each one has their list of values where things that are important to them are at the top of the list and things only important to others are much lower down.You get what you pay for. If you want greater certainty in what you are getting then you will pay a higher price. That is the way things work. You cannot demand that certainty if you are not paying for it. I mean, you can, but you are wasting your time.(Edited to correct the mistaken reference.)

author: MT
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 20, 2019, 04:45:39 pm
content: Quote from: technix on April 19, 2019, 11:52:31 amComrade! You sound to much like President for life Xi! Sorry, i meant "chairman" Xi, because everyone knows China these days always plays the Opimum wars card when being accused of cheap shit and other things. If USA/UK today is sour grapes over China cheap shit they should blame Bill Clinton (i didnt transport cocaine with Popa Bush nor travel on Epsteins Lolita express 26 times) for opening the doors for cheap Chinese shit back 1993 ! I'm Convinced Clintons got bribed by the Chinese back then.... I actually can appreciate cheap Chinese shit if it works if do not work, to hell with China!European consumers were crazy for Chinese silks, porcelain, and tea, but China wanted nothing to do with any European manufactured goods. The Qing required payment in cold, hard cash - in this case, silver.Britain soon faced a serious trade deficit with China, as it had no domestic silver supply and had to buy all of its silver from Mexico or from European powers with colonial silver mines. The growing British thirst for tea, in particular, made the trade imbalance increasingly desperate. By the end of the 18th century, the UK imported more than 6 tons of Chinese tea annually. In half a century, Britain managed to sell just £9m worth of British goods to the Chinese, in exchange for £27m in Chinese imports. The difference was paid for in silver.Btw Trump wants UK to import US chlorinated chickens, UK refuses to import that cheap shit!

author: MT
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 20, 2019, 04:49:33 pm
content: Quote from: soldar on April 20, 2019, 01:54:50 pmOP didnt say anything!

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 20, 2019, 06:22:51 pm
content: Quote from: MT on April 20, 2019, 04:49:33 pmMy bad. I meant the other guy.

author: technix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 21, 2019, 04:49:29 am
content: Quote from: MT on April 20, 2019, 04:45:39 pmWell it is required to memorize Xi's speeches if you want to take certain exams in China. And both the standardized entrance exam of postgraduate programs and the exam for a teacher's license requires that.

author: cjs
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 21, 2019, 06:20:08 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on April 20, 2019, 10:00:08 pmActually, technically that's running economy less efficiently because you're either not buying the optimimum goods for what you need to do or you're paying more than you need to for them. Generally, avoiding trade reduces economic efficiency.That's not to say that there aren't good reasons to take the efficiency hit, such as you want to build the skills and infrastructure to create certain items in your own country rather than having to buy them. Or when you trade for certain things, the economic gains go just to the rich who won't give any of that to the poor, and more optimal means of making sure poor people aren't worse off are rejected for reasons unrelated to economic efficiency.(Yes, this is surely getting off topic here, but I'm not sure the whole thread is on any kind of reasonable topic anyway.(And, "request." I don't think that's quite the right word for what dictators do. :-))

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 21, 2019, 07:56:18 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on April 21, 2019, 07:11:07 amI never heard of that. Could you gives us more details?

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 21, 2019, 03:18:45 pm
content: Quote from: blueskull on April 21, 2019, 07:59:17 amWell, I don't consider that has any relevance today. It happened in 1958, by what was arguably a very different government and regime and it was in reality a continuance of the American intervention in the Chinese civil war.QuoteThat's what I call a well organized "war".Quote from: blueskull on April 21, 2019, 07:59:17 amI do not consider that an "attempt to initiate war" in any way.After the civil war both Chinas had the same position: (1) There is only one China and (2) I am the only legitimate government of all of it.So, they both agreed on point (1) and the disagreement is on point (2). So far Taiwan have managed to shoot themselves in the foot each time they went to battle. We shall see who prevails.This is a very complex topic but I do not think China has any intention of going to war over Taiwan unless provoked. Both are on convergent courses and they know it. It is in the interests of both to keep the status quo. In some years re-integration could happen without much problem, like happened with Hong Kong and Macau.

author: technix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 22, 2019, 05:00:21 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on April 21, 2019, 07:00:58 pmThat law is a conditional pre-authorization of war. In the usual procedure of operation the transition to war require some CPC standing committee meetings and resolutions, but with this law in place if Taiwan move to separate itself from mainland China the government can start fighting without all that war authorization procedure, as it is already authorized here.

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 22, 2019, 07:14:56 am
content: IMHO, that law is a direct message to Taiwan: Don't do anything stupid or you'll be sorry. I mean it.

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 22, 2019, 11:50:33 am
content: Quote from: MT on April 20, 2019, 04:45:39 pmBand name!

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 22, 2019, 02:33:02 pm
content: My experience with buying cheap parts and other stuff via AliExpress is quite positive. I don't expect much from really cheap parts and derate W/A/V/lm/... specs. Also I stay away from known western brands and choose genuine Chinese semiconductors. In many cases I'm surprised how much I get for the money (qualitywise). Sometimes I find very useful little tools which aren't available in local stores. As always, caveat emptor.Regarding servers being hacked via IP addresses assigned to Chinese telcos I like to add that those alleged "hackers" are simply bots in most cases. For example, over 50% of ssh dictionary attacks originate from China. I doubt the owners of those PCs or servers are aware of the bot. Maybe it came with a free version of some software or an old version of a CMS with known security issues. And for other attack types the US are the main source. Sorry, no single bad guy to blame for everything.

author: technix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 22, 2019, 04:21:51 pm
content: Quote from: madires on April 22, 2019, 02:33:02 pmA lot of less tech-savvy users in China uses "Ghost" versions of pirated Windows. Those system images often comes with malware and botnet clients preinstalled.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 22, 2019, 04:36:08 pm
content: Quote from: legacy on April 22, 2019, 10:59:24 amNo, it can't be called that. "Boycotting" would mean that the Chinese refuse to visit your site. You may be thinking of "sabotaging"; although, as others have stated, targeted attacks are not the most likely explanation.

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 22, 2019, 06:00:54 pm
content: Quote from: technix on April 22, 2019, 04:21:51 pmHow convenient!

author: cjs
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 22, 2019, 06:13:42 pm
content: Quote from: madires on April 22, 2019, 02:33:02 pmYeah, me too. Less stuff has been broken or wrong than I'd budgeted for, so I'm ahead at this point. Though also I am buying only pretty cheap stuff from there: I think the most expensive item was my Uni-T UT61E multimeter which was, I dunno, $60 or so?(And also, I live in Japan where even the locally-built stuff can be more expensive than buying it overseas.)QuoteWell, I ordered a couple of (probably well-used) Motorola 6809 CPUs from an AliExpress vendor, so I guess I have no problem with U.S. parts. :-) Plus, lots of my 7400-series stuff has been TI or whatever.QuoteYeah, all the time. You have to be fairly careful ordering from there, but they do provide a useful service.

author: technix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 23, 2019, 03:21:11 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on April 22, 2019, 06:06:02 pmWhenever I need to install Windows for anyone I always start with an MSDN image first, and put in their license later.

author: CJay
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 23, 2019, 09:08:14 am
content: Quote from: soldar on April 22, 2019, 11:50:33 amSOmewhat off topic but if you 'do' twitter, there's a 'bot that generates John Peel* Band names which occasionally is utter genius.*John Peel, legend. Legendary champion of Indy, small label and new bands on BBC national radio, sadly passed away a few years ago now and is much missed.

author: VK3DRB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 24, 2019, 02:27:27 pm
content: Quote from: blueskull on April 16, 2019, 10:56:28 amTrue, the greedy Western exploiters of the poor should stop whinging. They are addicted to getting everything for next to nothing from anywhere they can, especially electronics. Most turn a blind eye to slavery and child labour. Most Western consumers don't give a rats arse about orphans left behind in Chinese villages as their peasant parents abandon their kids to make money in filthy Chinese cities far away. Western consumers have similarities to heroin addicts: Need more stuff. A bigger fix. Happiness assured. Rinse and repeat.Thank God there are some NGO's with a moral compass - promoting fair trade, help for the abandoned kids in China, and fighting for the eradication of slavery in third world countries like China, Bangladesh and India. I am very familiar with one in India that rescues poor Dalit children from breaking rocks for road gravel into schools where they are also fed and clothed....http://servetrust.org/Another one is Plan International. There is something us greedy Westerners can do with the money we save as we exploit the poor... donate some of our loot to one of the many NGO's that help the poor.

author: dietert1
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 24, 2019, 04:26:02 pm
content: In the west, in past times we learned there is a competition of ideas and that competition meant talking to each other to find out. Nowadays we have a competition of brands. Discussion in most cases risks damage to the brand, so how to proceed?I am wondering whether chinese companies are a good place for discussion and for teamwork. Or everybody is keeping their mouths shut?I have experienced a lot of difficulties. It's a completely different world. For example, if you put a negative feedback at ebay, they will not communicate at all. They will just offer a complete reembursement to get rid of the feedback. Keep your mouth shut!Obviously, if in their culture it is unusual to speak up, they won't proceed anywhere and will finally end up cheating and stealing to make a living.Regards, Dieter

author: dietert1
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 24, 2019, 08:59:44 pm
content: When i receive an RF amplifier that burns after some minutes or a set of so called BNC connectors that don't mate with BNC sockets, i think i should speak up. That's my understanding of feedback. It's something useful.When people keep their mouth shut, terrible things happen. Planes fall from the sky in plain sunshine. Or remember the TÜV Süd being involved in the most recent Vale accident in Brasil, causing a flood with more than 400 dead. No, that does not get us anywhere.Regards, Dieter

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 24, 2019, 09:20:55 pm
content: Quote from: dietert1 on April 24, 2019, 04:26:02 pmSo youfirstfire off a round of public (!) negative feedback, andthenexpect the seller to enter into a constructive dialog??Remind me again, in which Western culture is that considered good style and a promising approach?

author: dietert1
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 25, 2019, 06:14:04 am
content: It may not appear stylish, but the feedback system can't work unless people speak up. The minimum a seller can do is respond to the feedback and/or improve the product description.It's an error with ebay that we can assign feedback only to sellers and not to products. At least there should be some find function to extract feedback related to an offer. As it is, a seller needs to check a product before offering it and they should stop selling products they don't understand. With large distributors like Diki-Key that's guaranteed.Regards, Dieter

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 25, 2019, 08:06:34 am
content: I sometimes leave negative feedback right off the bat when the item is complete garbage and not worth sending back and the seller should have known better, but to expect the seller to care about you after such move is a bit hardcoreMost of the time I contact first asking for replacement/refund/whatever and then leave some neutral / mixed bag feedback to indicate the seller is problematic but can be reasoned with.

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 25, 2019, 08:16:42 am
content: Anyone who posts bad feedback without first communicating with the seller and giving them a chance to make things right is a jerk in my book. (And one of the reasons I do not sell on eBay.)That is just as true online as it is in real life. If something is not right the first thing you do is talk to the other party and give them a chance to make it right.I buy quite a bit from China and generally my experiences have all been good. When there has been a problem I communicated with the seller and it was always resolved to my satisfaction. Some months ago I bought a bicycle foot pump and when it arrived the pump worked but the pressure gauge did not work right. I communicated with the seller and we agreed that he would refund me half the price and I accepted and was satisfied. Mind you, the original price was already so low that it would have been good even if the pump had no gauge.My experiences with Chinese sellers has always been good. But, then again, I try to be reasonable and not be a jerk. Jerks tend to have bad experiences anywhere they go.I have been to China many times, both for business and pleasure, and have generally found the Chinese to be honest and fair. I have found it is not socially OK to cheat or defraud foreigners like it might be in other poor countries.I have had my pocket picked in China like I have had it picked in other places but that does not mean the practice is condoned. I have seen shoplifters beat up while the police arrived. Pickpockets, shoplifters, crooks and fraudsters have no more social acceptance in China than they do in America and I would say much less.

author: CJay
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 25, 2019, 10:08:19 am
content: This applies to *ALL* potential problems with vendors on eBay, not just Chinese ones (who are, in general really quite good IME)Sometimes the *only* way to get a seller to talk to you about resolving a problem is to leave negative feedback but I'd always try and resolve an issue before the negative.I've learned by experience that the best option is to open a case with eBay ASAP before any of the weasel words or 'well return it and we'll refund/replace/whatever' offers are made, make it all official and do all your requests via the eBay system.I have had more trouble with UK based sellers than Chinese ones. I'm stuck trying to get a return and refund on a not as described piece of gear right now with a seller who lives only ~40 miles from me.

author: dietert1
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 25, 2019, 02:46:52 pm
content: Maybe the real jerks are those who buy from China knowing they can blackmail sellers by complaining in the private and knowing most likely they can keep what they got. Of course nobody knows how big that problem is.By the way: Amazon has useful feedback on many chinese products. Have a look before buying!Recently i experienced fraud from a US seller. They offered NEW LeCroy Wavelink active probes at a price similar to other used active probes. It was hard to believe, but i gave it a try. When the parcel arrived, the actual probe modules were missing. And the probe cables and accessories had all kinds of stickers on them. So i lost about $ 500 on useless parts. The seller sold 4, but received only one negative (from me). I believe this same fraud currently appears in several active ebay offers, for example from Israel.Regards, Dieter

author: Bassman59
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 25, 2019, 08:44:04 pm
content: Quote from: soldar on April 17, 2019, 10:22:11 amLee Harvey, I wanna party with you!

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 26, 2019, 10:21:07 am
content: Quote from: dietert1 on April 25, 2019, 02:46:52 pmBut have you disputed it? In any case you have a right to return them within 30 days.

author: dietert1
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2019, 01:27:18 pm
content: Yes, in that case i complained to the seller before leaving negative feedback.They thought everything was OK and they did nothing wrong. "You don't get what you don't see." The photo showed a lot of things, among them some unopened bags. Finally they wrote: "We would never offer a new probe system at that price." But they did. The whole thing was just a waste of time (and some money).And this fraud continues. Currently there are several similar offers on ebay. Apparently there is some consumption of LeCroy Wavelink probe modules (destruction by wrong usage) and someone found they can sell the unused cables and other accessories including the box on ebay.ebay nowadays is the place to sell surplus and pre-production crap. Its a small fraction of the offers though and ebay doesn't care.Regards, Dieter

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 26, 2019, 01:36:42 pm
content: Quote from: dietert1 on April 26, 2019, 01:27:18 pmIf they refuse, escalate to ebay. On top of that, if you did not open dispute on ebay, you have 6 months to open dispute on Paypal.

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2019, 03:50:51 pm
content: I am not saying a seller might not be intentionally misleading but it is a good rule to not assume anything and to double check before you bid. I have learned to not assume anything. If it is not specifically mentioned then I ask the seller before bidding.I have found sellers who are selling something and they honestly have no idea what they are selling and when I ask they either say they have no idea or they just don't respond. Be certain before you bid. Buyer beware.

author: cjs
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2019, 05:48:24 pm
content: Quote from: VK3DRB on April 24, 2019, 02:27:27 pmThere are at least two people involved here:1. Someone knowingly and willingly exploiting children.2. Someone far away from that who would have to go to significant effort to know if any of the particular thousand products she buys per year is created by someone like #1.If your'e going after #2 here, you're going after the wrong person in two areas: where you can have a significant effect in reducing exploitation of children and who is morally the worse person here.The people who employ children and treat their worker badly would not suddenly stop doing that if westerners paid them more, or even if westerners didn't buy their goods at all. They will exploit whomever they need to in order to make their bit. (And it's not like this isn't a problem in the west, either.)

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2019, 06:26:42 pm
content: Children were working in the mines in Britain during the Industrial Revolution.Buying from countries where children are exploited will make those countries richer and the children of tomorrow will be better off.Many children in China today have a higher standard of living because their parents worked as children 30 years ago. Today their children are in school and learning to become engineers and scientists.It is good to care about improving the lives of children and adults worldwide and I applaud the many NGOs that work in the direction but many people who use the the excuse of children's welfare to not buy from certain countries do not care about those countries, they only want to avoid their competition. Many of those people support the harshest measures against refugees coming to our countries. I am not fooled.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2019, 06:54:34 pm
content: Quote from: soldar on April 26, 2019, 06:26:42 pmRight. Buying products made with child labor is actually developmental aid for the countries of origin. It should be tax-deductible when you give for that noble cause.

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2019, 07:04:16 pm
content: Supposing they do, why do you think they would use child labor?Because they are bad parents who do not love their children?Or could there be other reasons?

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2019, 07:19:19 pm
content: Quote from: soldar on April 26, 2019, 07:04:16 pmI would argue that legalizing and supporting child labor in industry helps mostly the companies which employ them, not the families who are employed:It lets the companies get away with paying salaries to the adults which are not sufficient to feed a family. Indeed itencouragespaying such low salaries, because these force the parents to let their children work as well -- more labor force, at even lower cost.If child labor is outlawed or boycotted, yes, maybe economic growth slows down somewhat. But industry margins would take a bigger hit than family incomes, I believe, since salary levels would have to increase somewhat.

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2019, 07:25:58 pm
content: That does not answer my question.In any case, child labor is pretty much illegal everywhere. It is easy to make laws. Not so easy to change reality.And, I would dispute there is any significant amount of child labor in China anyway.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2019, 07:49:27 pm
content: Quote from: soldar on April 26, 2019, 07:25:58 pmBut if you apply some of those "traces of grey matter", you might figure it out.Of course, parents do not let their children work because the dislike them, but because the economic conditions force them to do so. But the economic conditions areshapedthe way they arebecausesociety tolerates child labor. That is what I said in my post.

author: chris_leyson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2019, 07:58:16 pm
content: Not sure if the guy who made the video really understands copyright. He says the 8087 wasn't released until 1980 but the chip is copyright 1978therefore it must be a fake. Some aspects of the 8087 co-processor design probably were copyrighted in 1978 and after further improvements in later years the copyright is just updated. Out of curiosity I went looking for images of Intel 8087 co-processors and on the first page there is an image of a D8087-1 from Ken Shirriff's blog, copyright 1978.

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2019, 08:07:26 pm
content: It is simplistic thinking that you can just pass a law and things magically change.https://www.dartmouth.edu/~eedmonds/nzzessay.pdfQuoteIf you want to improve the lives of children (and adults) in poor countries the best way is to help them develop.

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2019, 09:24:00 pm
content: Did you ask them if they want to?

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2019, 09:26:11 pm
content: Are you serious?