Using a breadboard for permanent circuits? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: rrinker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 09, 2020, 04:10:40 pm
content: On a model railroad forum, I just saw a post where it shows the electronics for a person's layout assembled on strings of solderless breadboards. Sorry, can't post the pic as it is not mine, but the pic shows a typical wiring board with dozens of connections (I believe it is all the block detection circuitry) where it is all plugged in to breadboards.I can't imagine this is a very good idea for something intended to be permanent (and this is most definitely a fixed layout, not something that would be taken apart and rearranged on a regular basis). The person who posted the pic claims the guy who did all this is an MIT PhD (in Electrical Engineering) - as if that matters. Solderless breadboards are to me not something to be used for permanent circuits, more for development and design. If the layout is appealing, then there are always the perf boards that are laid out in breadboard patterns so the physical and electrical form can be transferred over.Or am I the idiot for not having a PhD from MIT?

author: Caliaxy
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 09, 2020, 04:46:34 pm
content: Yes, solderless breadboards are OK for permanent circuits, for obvious durability reasons. Provisional solutions tend to last longer and outlive most permanent solutions. PhD here (not EE, but I can see MIT from my window).

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 09, 2020, 04:56:47 pm
content: See rrinker. This confirms you're an idiot with no PhD.QuoteThat was an interesting statement.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 09, 2020, 04:57:16 pm
content: I suspect lots of model railroad stuff is temporary. I don't see the point in using a breadboard for a permanent circuit.

author: Muttley Snickers
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 09, 2020, 05:15:32 pm
content: I've had a counter project sitting on a breadboard for the past six years, does that count ?.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 09, 2020, 05:18:31 pm
content: Quote from: Muttley Snickers on March 09, 2020, 05:15:32 pmWell, does it still count?

author: Yansi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 09, 2020, 05:18:48 pm
content: Use veroboard instead.

author: Muttley Snickers
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 09, 2020, 05:49:40 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on March 09, 2020, 05:18:31 pmOh, it counts all right but after six years it just doesn't add up.Quote from: Yansi on March 09, 2020, 05:18:48 pmI'm not sure I am quite ready to make that commitment just yet.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 09, 2020, 05:51:59 pm
content: Quote from: Zero999 on March 09, 2020, 04:57:16 pmMaybe you would if you grasped the impermanence of all things.

author: Yansi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 09, 2020, 06:12:00 pm
content: And also impedance after all...

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 09, 2020, 06:52:34 pm
content: There are manufactured PCBs available that replicate the layout of breadboards, suitable for soldering DIPs and TH components.

author: Yansi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 09, 2020, 07:00:53 pm
content: Quote from: TimFox on March 09, 2020, 06:52:34 pmA veroboard.

author: bsudbrink
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 09, 2020, 07:26:59 pm
content: I know a few model railroaders. They use the old POTS punch-down blocks to wire up their layouts. They use them both for their in home stuff and for temporary displays that they put up around the holidays. I helped on a setup once and was impressed with how quickly the guy was punching in the circuits. I wondered at the time whether any of Ma Bell's old pros could have gone any faster.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 09, 2020, 08:30:14 pm
content: Quote from: Yansi on March 09, 2020, 07:00:53 pmI’m referring to boards with plated-through holes that have exactly the same arrangement of DIP-capable vertical bars (3 or 4 holes per bar) and long horizontal strips (with the gaps), as found on popular breadboards, not general-purpose Veroboards(TM).

author: Domagoj T
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 09, 2020, 08:35:32 pm
content: This?

author: rrinker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 09, 2020, 09:29:08 pm
content: Those are fancy ones. Radio Shack when they were still around carried the ones that were plain boards with the matching plates holes and traces - just cheap phenolic, not FR4 or anything, and certainly did not have the rows and columns painted and labelled like those.Once you go past the first few layouts which commonly are referred to as "chainsaw layouts" because when you are done you just cut them to pieces with a chainsaw, and move on to filling an entire basement, it becomes a bit more permanent. Nothing a sawzall can;t fix, as the sleazy landlord that owned the building an old club I used to belong to rented (rent was cheap - until we had most of the layout built - next renewal, he tripled it, thinking he had us captive. Nope, tore is all down and the club found an even bigger place that they were able to afford to buy outright, plus the barber across the street who had been there for decades made sure to tell anyone who seemed interested in his for rent sign just what a jerk this guy was - it sat empty for over 2 years before he was able to rent it out again).

author: Red Squirrel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2020, 12:45:59 am
content: If you like watching the world burn, use a breadboard, and when you're happy with the circuit just pot the whole thing in a tupperware container.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2020, 01:11:04 am
content: And if you want to convince someone to stop using a bunch of breadboards for moderately complex stuff, just arrange to stumble close to the mess of wires, pulling off a few by mere accident. Often the guy won't have a full proper schematic of the whole thing anyway. So that will be hours of wasted time to figure it all out again. They may switch to soldered proto boards after that.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2020, 01:13:44 am
content: I cringe whenever I see a solderless breadboard installed inside a project box, I've seen it more than once.I love breadboards for quick tests but I've never tried to build anything particularly complex on one.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2020, 01:48:42 am
content: good contacts require grease usually (or at least live alot longer because corrosion propagation is inhibited), especially with weird pin geometries (not something nice like a battery holder). that will be one UGLY breadboard. Breadboard soaked in deoxit lolreliability will be low because its not machine pin connectors or heavy spring material. Like good machine pin DIP sockets last a very long time, but the cheap ones like a breadboard are ehhhif its a fused circuit, its fine for a hobbyist? i mean if you have a train room in your house, so long there is no smoke i don't think you will exactly lose out on something if the display does not work.

author: Yansi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2020, 08:20:59 am
content: Quote from: TimFox on March 09, 2020, 08:30:14 pmThat also qualifies as a veroboard.They've been shaped with similar patterns for years, because simply such patterns are useful for building circuits. But I see zero reasons to stick to patterns (overpriced colorful adafruit junk) exactly copying a typical breadboard.Also, my suggestion is to use veroboards consisting just a matrix of plated holes and then connect them point-to-point using solderable enamel wire. Can be used to produce much nicer and tighter layouts.

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2020, 10:10:18 am
content: Well if you want to be accurate about things, Veroboard specifically refers to (milled and punched SRBP) stripboards manufactured be Vero Technologies Ltd. in the UK. In the old days ('70s) it used to be used as a generic term for stripboard as they made pretty much all of it. These days everything else is just matrix board of different flavours and configurations, mostly made in China.https://www.verotl.com/Notice that Vero don't even call theirownproto boards, in other configurations, Veroboard.

author: Yansi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2020, 12:42:21 pm
content: Well, I do not know of any other anglicism for that thing, we call these things different in our language.

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2020, 12:54:32 pm
content: Stripboard (for veroboard) or matrix / proto boards (which probably cover all of the ones that aren't stripboard). The latter ones require further qualification anyway due to the many types.

author: Yansi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2020, 12:58:35 pm
content: "Matrix prototype board" is then likely the closest term to what I like and suggest using for building prototypes. Thanks for clarification of the names

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2020, 03:21:09 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on March 10, 2020, 01:13:44 amPerhaps the person who made it doesn't have a soldering iron?

author: frogg
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2020, 04:00:51 pm
content: Quote from: Caliaxy on March 09, 2020, 04:46:34 pmHere's another one I live by: "Nothing more permanent than a temporary solution."

author: TomS_
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2020, 10:37:30 pm
content: Quote from: rrinker on March 09, 2020, 04:10:40 pmI dont see why you cant, as long as you dont claim it is yours and provide a link to the source.Quote from: rrinker on March 09, 2020, 04:10:40 pmWell, you have to consider the application first and foremost. Model railways are a hobbyist endeavour, all aspects of them entail hobby level skill and craftmanship, although some take it to greater or more professional extents than others. And dont forget, electronics is not everybodys forte, and usually constructed using the easiest to source materials and components from published plans or ones own designs, if not bought off the shelf.Since we're talking about a model railway, I dont see the problem constructing electronics on perf or proto board. Block detection isnt exactly high frequency, or high energy, or even safety critical in this context.If the guy somehow tried to push his own weight around by "playing the MIT PhD card" and claiming superior knowledge, then yeah maybe you can have a poke at the guy. But its also possible he used that card to demonstrate he has an understanding of the electrical characteristics of what he is building and what he is building them with, and that possibly things are perfectly fine the way they are.Could it be designed into a custom PCB and made to look more professional? Sure. But to me, there is some kind of charm seeing perf/proto board construction tucked away under a model railway.

author: Domagoj T
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2020, 11:23:20 pm
content: Quote from: TomS_ on March 10, 2020, 10:37:30 pmIt certainly can be.DCC (and MFX) is in 10 kHz ballpark (certainly not high frequency by most standards, but still high enough to cause some unexpected issues if you expect DC or 50Hz). Boosters (power supplies for digital signals in the rails) of 4A at ~20V are perfectly normal.As for safety critical aspect, on the layout I work on we had a situation where a loco got stuck between two boosters or something (it's been a while, I forgot the details). By the time we noticed it, the plastic ballast under the track (where the power pickup was) had melted. It's perfectly possible that if we hadn't noticed, we would have had a fire.I've also seen guys making a temporary power connection using ~2 m ~0,14 mm^2 wires which they used to span a room. Then they promptly made a short circuit which led to the insulation smoking up and just falling of the wire.Some block detection systems use current sensing, meaning that all the current goes through the device, so if the device is dodgy and you have a short, you could have some issues. There are a lot of short circuits in model railroading, some are operator error, but a good deal are just derailments, so you're bound to have some, even with best of practices and complete care while doing electrical work. This is definitely not a hobby where breadboards are suitable, not even for temporary holiday displays. I'm also one of those that consider the saying "Nothing more permanent than a temporary solution." to be an axiom.

author: ChristofferB
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2020, 09:51:14 am
content: I must admit I just dont really get solderless breadboards for anything larger than quick tests, or rapid interfacing with a microcontroller. The mere knowledge that I'll have to do the circuit over completely if I want to use it is such a lhuge deterrent for me, and honestly, if one bread boards neatly, it's not "that" much faster than:- soldering on perfboard- Manhattan style "ugly" construction on bare copper pcb- wire wrapping- verowiringAnd all of those are stable enough for indefinite use!

author: peter-h
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2020, 10:29:21 am
content: In the old days it was normal to wire wrap circuits. An extremely reliable technique which also lends itself to automation.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2020, 10:35:09 am
content: Quote from: Domagoj T on March 09, 2020, 08:35:32 pmThese PCBs probably fill an existing need, for those who are building stuff by literally following "Fritzing" diagrams.

author: DenzilPenberthy
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2020, 11:55:30 am
content: As someone who's day job is doing electronics for academics: It would be a HUUGE mistake to equate having a PhD with having any sort of practical skill or ability to make anything!

author: TomS_
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2020, 10:05:33 pm
content: Quote from: Domagoj T on March 10, 2020, 11:23:20 pmAs I said, you have to consider the application.If youre trying to do "high current" on a board where tracks are periodically drilled out and left (sometimes) with mere whiskers of copper around said holes, and if youre relying on those whiskers then, well, youre doing it wrong and you will learn a lesson. Or you need to be beefing up the high current sections with some thicker conductor, coat the tracks with solder etc.Short circuiting power conductors which then burned out is a "rookie mistake" in a couple of ways, and you should only be working on that kind of thing if the power is isolated.Fires can be detected with smoke/heat detectors as in any domestic or commercial situation, and all areas of the layout (above, below, inside) should be reachable from somewhere if you had to use a fire extinguisher for example. That seems like common sense and general perparedness to me.I love PCB design and would probably end up designing my own PCBs for anything I needed, but I still dont have a problem using perf/proto boards for a one off or small batch.