PC Desktop able to run HDMI/4K? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / beginners

author: TRAPTRAP
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 26, 2015, 02:14:04 am
content: I'm looking for a PC Desktop that'll be compatible with a Seiki 55" TV. In my previous topic, HERE...https://www.eevblog.com/forum/beginners/connecting-a-seiki-4k-hd-39'-to-a-dell-optiplex-gx-620/I was trying to find a way to make it compatible with my old DELL OptiPlex, but that seemed like it was going to be a bit more trouble than the final result is worth. So, I'm thinking on buying a new PC, that runs HDMI/4K that will look great on the TV, and be able to pretty much 4X the Icons/Text/etc. on the screen, to make it visible to my terrible eyesight, yet still retain some of its quality/dignity.This was the PC I was thinking about. I looked at the specifications, and it does have HDMI, but I noticed the graphics chip is Intel i3, I don't know if that's not high enough, and if I'll have to buy an Intel i5+?Here's the specs...Dell - Inspiron Desktop - 8GB Memory - 1TB Hard Drive - BlackType of Memory (RAM): DDR3Number Of HDMI Outputs: 1Enclosure Type: TowerProcessor Model: Intel 4th Generation Core i3Ethernet: Gigabit Ethernet LANColor Category: BlackOperating System: Windows 8.1Processor Brand: IntelHard Drive Capacity: 1000 gigabytesSystem Memory RAM Expandable To: 16 gigabytesOptical Drive Type: CD-R|CD-RW|DVD+R|DVD+RW|DVD-R|DVD-RWCache Memory: 3 megabytesIncluded Software: Basic software package includedNumber Of VGA Ports: 1Audio Technology: Integrated 5.1Graphics Chip: IntelWireless Networking: Wireless-B|Wireless-G|Wireless-NBlu-Ray Player: NoENERGY STAR Certified: NoNumber Of Ethernet Ports: 1Port Type(s): 3.5mm audio|Ethernet|HDMI|USB|VGAMedia Card Reader: YesSystem Memory (RAM): 8 gigabytesProcessor Speed: 3.5 gigahertzEPEAT Qualified: NoNumber Of Auxiliary Outputs: 3Number Of USB Port(s): 8Hard Drive Type: SATAOperating System Architecture: 64-bitHard Drive RPM: 7200 revolutions per minuteSo, what could I work with here, or does someone have a better PC I could look into? Also, if anyone has had this PC, some idea on its reliability, life span, so on. I was still using old refurbished DELL PCs, in order to avoid using Windows 8, but I'd like that TV monitor, SO...

author: trumpet205
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 26, 2015, 02:29:03 am
content: If you are not doing any gaming I think iGPU should be able to do 4K HDMI.Better way to do it would be to buy a cheap PCI Express GPU like this GT 720:http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00MIYKRC2/ref=psdc_284822_t1_B00MNGI8QWIf you are doing gaming than all bets are off.

author: mariush
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 26, 2015, 02:34:01 am
content: Read the documentation of your TV to see what inputs it supports and what are the maximum parameters supported by each input.The TV should have HDMI input and if you're lucky it could have DVI. From the posts in the thread, someone mentioned that the TV only has HDMI 1.4 which means you're limited to 4k at 30Hz (fps). If it has DVI, it could be that he monitor supports 4k @ 60 Hz through a dual link DVI cable.Figure these things out before thinking of buying a computer or anything.Any PC will be compatible as long as the video card has hdmi or another digital connector that the monitor also has.Also note... you're not really forced to use 4k @ 30 Hz, you could set the resolution to 1080p and 60 Hz and the TV should be smart enough to upscale ("resize") the 1080p content your PC sends to 4K. Some text may not be sharp, but otherwise if you're playing games it would be fine.You wouldn't be playing games at 4k @ 30-60Hz anyway, unless you have a powerful video card.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 26, 2015, 02:52:20 am
content: Quote from: mariush on January 26, 2015, 02:34:01 amNope, HDMI 1.4 have the same bandwidth as DVI dual link, so higher bandwidth is not possible over DVI. Older HDMI revisions have bandwidth the same as DVI single link. 4K at 60 Hz is possible only with displayport 1.2 or connection with multiple cables (appears as multiple displays to the PC, but that's messy and not widely supported). Edit: 4K at 60 Hz over HDMI 1.4 or older Displayport probably is possible with YCbCr 4:2:2 color subsampling instead of RGB, that however reduces quality and depends on how implemented in display.

author: trumpet205
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 26, 2015, 02:58:46 am
content: I don't believe dual link DVI can do 4K resolution, can it? I remember their max resolution is 2560 x 1600.

author: TRAPTRAP
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 26, 2015, 03:01:55 am
content: As for the PC I listed the specs for, it does have HDMI Input/Output? As does the TV. wraper helped out in my last topic explaining the DVI to HDMI process, and how it might not work out, but with this newer PC/ SEIKI TV, I shouldn't need DVI at all right? They both have HDMI.Also, I'm not a gamer, so I'll really be using this for browsing/simpler tasks. 30HZ should be enough, if 60HZ isn't possible, I think?

author: rdl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 26, 2015, 03:02:36 am
content: But HDMI claims it works fine at 4K, just have to use a "High Speed" HDMI cable.http://www.hdmi.org/manufacturer/hdmi_1_4/4K.aspx

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 26, 2015, 03:18:28 am
content: 4k and HDMI is a mess right now. HDMI 1.4 does 4k at 30fps. HDMI 2.0 should do 4k at 60fps at the full 4:4:4 mode people need for compuer monitor use. The only things which can generate 4k at 60fps right now seem to be the nVidia GTX970 and GTX980 cards. When you connect these to TVs which are supposed to be HDMI 2.0 you frequently find things don't work properly. Most Samsung TVs don't get 4k 60 fps right. The more expensive LG TVs work OK at 4k 60fps, but the cheaper ones don't. It looks like LG only figured that out after the GTX970 and GTX980 cards appeared, because they've updated their web sites to clarify which models work right, and which can only do 4k 60fps if you use 4:2:0. Sony don't seem to get it right. Panasonic have some sets with a displayport input that apparently works right, but I'm not sure if their HDMI input do.If you are OK with 30fps, most current motherboard HDMI outputs can generate the 4k 4:4:4 pictures you want, but for a clean picture you'll probably need to stick to a fairly short HDMI cable.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 26, 2015, 03:19:30 am
content: Quote from: trumpet205 on January 26, 2015, 02:58:46 amThere is no resolution limitation, only bandwidth. For example you can do 4K @ 15 Hz even over single link DVI.Quote from: rdl on January 26, 2015, 03:02:36 amThey do not say anything about refresh rate. BTW so called high speed cable is the same cable as usual. Only thing they guarantee that it performs well at such bandwidth. Old high quality cables are no worse than those, crap ones may have issues. Only new cables which support Ethernet over HDMI are a bit different. They have 2 wires assembled as twisted pair, while in simple cables there are just 2 plain wires.

author: TRAPTRAP
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 26, 2015, 03:23:30 am
content: Okay, so then that PC up there SHOULD WORK? I'm fine with the 30fps, it's what I figured it'd wind up at.My biggest concern is that it can keep up with regular browsing speeds, and stretch things out to the size my eyes will need!

author: TRAPTRAP
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 26, 2015, 08:45:42 pm
content: For reference, when I get this TV, as I've said, I'll need to upscale the text especially larger. I've found a way to change SOME of the text on the PC, but does anyone know how to change the rest?Here's what I found?Title barsMenusMessage boxesPalette titlesIconsTooltipsWhich I found in Appearance>Display.However, the text size, say, for most things, including the options/display menus/ pop ups, everything else, doesn't seem to change. Only if I change the size of all items, which is too much. Basically, if I'm getting this TV, those tiny fonts have to go up? So, any suggestions?Again, thanks everyone, the users here are EXTREMELY HELPFUL!

author: mariush
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 26, 2015, 08:54:44 pm
content: In Windows 7, right click on desktop, select "Screen Resolution", then click on the blue text line saying "Make text and other items larger or smaller".if that option (with 3 choices) doesn't satisfy you, you have "set custom text size (DPI)" on the side. This automatically adjusts the font sizes in any application that's smart enough.In Windows 8 and later, I don't know.

author: TRAPTRAP
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 26, 2015, 09:03:23 pm
content: I'm going to check that out on my Windows 7 PC, so thanks!BUT, I really need it for Windows 8.1, so if anyone has an idea for me, please?

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 26, 2015, 09:24:31 pm
content: You can change text size in windows settings, however not always that looks pretty and is correctly displayed in programs. If you have poor eyesight, probably it is better to stick with lower resolution as likely you won't see any positive difference what higher detalization gives. If using the same resolution on larger screen all contents will become "magnified" compared to the smaller screen. When using higher resolution, opposite thing happens, everything will become smaller. You just can put more information on the same screen size -> you can fit more individual things on the screen while each of them become smaller. As of 30Hz, It would be good for movies if the video is of the same framrate and sync perfectly. However for using as a computer screen might not be so good, you would notice lack of smoothness when moving something with mouse over the screen. Here is example screenshot how looks this forum in Chrome browser on the 30" screen with 2560x1600 resolution.

author: Howardlong
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 26, 2015, 10:18:04 pm
content: I run three 4K monitors on my main desktop. The box behind it is a Mac Mini server 2012 running Windows 8.1. It supports a single 4k at 30fps on its mini Display port plus a 1080p on the HDMI port.To get the other two monitors at 4K, I use two USB 3.0 DisplayLink adapters, one is by Startech and the other is By Club-3d. These adapters only support 4K at 30fps too. For PCB layout and general working there's no noticeable difference between the Displaylink fed monitors and the directly connected one. However, for full screen video although it works on the DisplayLink adapters, it's becomes a little juddery and the CPU gets eaten up by the Displaylink Rendering software. Just running a video in, say, a quarter or third screen is fine. i don't do gaming, but I would not recommend a DisplayLink solution for that.All monitors are fed through their DisplayPort ports. I don't have anything that will generate 4K at 60fps although the monitors apparently support it. They will support 4K at 30fps through their HDMI ports. The usual HDMI cable bullshit continues, a crappy old cable from the dollar store still works at 4k.

author: Howardlong
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 26, 2015, 10:30:20 pm
content: Regarding resolution and sizing, my monitors are 28" and at 100% Windows settings it's too small for me. I run 125%. But these are on my desktop right in front of me, not on a 55" telly.There is also some nonsense I've noticed if you run multiple monitors at differing resolutions, Windows 8.1 simply seems unable to cope, making a right old mess trying to be too clever and switch text sizes depending on what monitor your app is on. Better to have everything at the same resolution if you can.It's a real joy to do CAD at 4k. Even mundane things like having a pair of documents side by side in full clarity makes a big difference. The problem is that once you've got used to running in these higher resolutions it makes 1080p look like Duplo.

author: rdl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 27, 2015, 12:14:45 pm
content: I run Windows 7 on a 1920x1080 TV and the standard size text is way too small so I use 150% scaling. There are a few problems caused by this.Often a program's screen elements (drop down lists, boxes, buttons, etc) will appear in the original small size and in the wrong place on screen. I have one game that for some reason scales up its resolution by 150% also, so the entire screen is never visible no matter what resolution it is actually set to.Game developers are generally very lacking when designing their UIs, though some are not bad. The UI in the Fallout3/New Vegas games scales up seamlessly at higher resolutions, but Kerbal Space program on the other hand is a disaster. The on screen text in KSP, like many other games, is very tiny and almost unreadable at high resolution on a TV.I find HDMI to be pretty poor in general for use on a PC. There tends to be considerable artifacting and over all low quality compared to DVI or VGA. Was it ever really intended for use on PCs? I thought it was mostly for TVs, so content producers could enforce copy protection. I could be wrong about that, but I know I don't like it and I refuse to use it.

author: KedasProbe
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 27, 2015, 01:58:20 pm
content: Quote from: TRAPTRAP on January 26, 2015, 02:14:04 amAre you sure you don't want to stay with 2K if it's for your eyes?

author: trumpet205
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2015, 01:45:31 am
content: Quote from: rdl on January 27, 2015, 12:14:45 pmThat really doesn't make sense. HDMI and DVI are very similar signal wise. There shouldn't be any visual differences.The only way I can think of that can cause visual differences is YCbCr vs RGB mode. DVI only works in full range RGB, while HDMI can do TV range RGB, full range RGB, 4:2:0 YCbCr, 4:2:2 YCbCr, and 4:4:4 YCbCr. You only need to mess with these settings if display cannot select the correct settings (or improperly handle them).

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2015, 01:55:39 am
content: Quote from: trumpet205 on January 28, 2015, 01:45:31 amThere are big differences between the HDMI and DVI inputs on most displays. Typically DVI maps straight to the display, as long as the signal has the same resolution as the LCD panel. HDMI can go through all sorts of manipulations. Many displays are quite quirky in how they manipulate HDMI signals. I have seen displays where if you keep pulling out and inserting the HDMI lead the colour tone, contrast and brightness of the picture changes.

author: TRAPTRAP
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2015, 03:17:39 am
content: Thanks again, wraper (To your last post)! I'll be keeping all of that in mind as well when I get the 4K TV, and what's a good option for the sizing for my eyes!Again, this forum's users have been very helpful! Through this whole 4K TV thing, especially you wraper!As a whole, since I joined here back in 2014, it's been the most helpful forum I've ever been on. SUPER KUDOS!

author: Timmay
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2015, 10:43:40 am
content: Why do you need 4K for text? Screw icons, etc that you listed. There is NO need at all for 4K unless you are gaming or making a home theater and even then its not necessary 1080P is fine. Save your money man.

author: rdl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2015, 03:12:12 pm
content: I tend to agree that 4K will probably be a waste of money in this situation. I think that unless you have nearly perfect vision and your face is no more than an arm's length from the screen, it's probably unnecessary for most people. Since I use my TV for only two things, watching video and playing games, I know it would be for me.I recently bought a new TV and once again tried the HDMI connection.The first thing I noticed was black bars around the image - overscan - the immediate indication of the fact that HDMI does not simply display what is sent, it's constantly pulling levers behind the curtains.Game textures seem to shimmer and pop as if they are switching between different resolutions and regular old on screen text never seems to look clear and sharp. This is the third TV and the fifth or sixth video card I've tried the PC to HDMI connection with, I doubt I'll waste any time on it in the futureQuote from: trumpet205 on January 28, 2015, 01:45:31 am

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 28, 2015, 03:53:08 pm
content: Quote from: rdl on January 28, 2015, 03:12:12 pmGraphics card and HDMI standard has nothing to do with this. It is a TV.How to get clear picture:Quote

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 28, 2015, 04:11:18 pm
content: QuoteThat probably is underscan (TV overscan compensation) enabled in GPU driver. Probably you messed with that setting before and left it enabled? But your TV actually do not use overscan, therefore you get black bars. With overscan you get edges being cut, not black bars around the image.

author: rdl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2015, 04:18:32 pm
content: Yep, know all about that and use it. On the last TV it was called "Aspect Mode 1:1", on the new TV it's called "Aspect Ratio: Full (100%).Fixes the overscan just fine, HDMI still has all the same strange appearance problems as before. I don't think it's because it's a TV, I think it's because it's HDMI, mainly because all the problems disappear when the exact same equipment is switched to VGA. I should probably try HDMI out on a real monitor sometime just to see.And what is the point of this HDMI overscan anyway if the TV doesn't need it? Just more messing around with the signal for no purpose other than it can?Quote from: wraper on January 28, 2015, 03:53:08 pm

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 28, 2015, 04:23:30 pm
content: Check GPU driver control panel.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 28, 2015, 04:28:27 pm
content: Quote from: rdl on January 28, 2015, 04:18:32 pmBecause stupid TV broadcasters made a CRT overscan workaround being standard. Quiet often putting crap on the edges of the video even nowadays.

author: katzohki
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2015, 04:36:16 pm
content: To address the OP's concern:A huge 4K monitor is NOT going to help you see things better. It will actually appear to have very tiny icons and text on it. What you want to do isdecreasethe resolution, notwithstanding the size of the monitor.

author: rdl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2015, 04:45:38 pm
content: The graphics card used with the TV is an Nvidia GTX550 and I actually don't recall ever having run the Nvidia control panel utility until just now, so it's not likely I "messed with that setting".As far as I can tell the driver doesn't even have an under/over scan setting. It does have some scaling options, but they're all set on the default 1920x1080. None of this actually matters anyway since all the visual artifacts I can see using HDMI completely go away using VGA out of the DVI port.I really don't see that there is any benefit to using HDMI from a PC to a TV, unless of course there's no DVI or VGA input on the TV.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 28, 2015, 04:55:50 pm
content: Quote from: rdl on January 28, 2015, 04:45:38 pmIf there is DVI on the TV, then no picture benefit. However you can output sound over HDMI too. VGA on the other hand is crap, especially on higher resolutions like 1080p.

author: rdl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2015, 09:28:14 pm
content: That's odd, my Nvidia control panel doesn't have that. It just says1. Select the display you would like to change:(Under that is the icon for the TV)2. Apply the following settings:(Under that all there is a panel with two tabs, one is for "Scaling" the other is for "Position")No mention of HDTV anywhere. Maybe that's a newer driver version from what I have. I haven't updated the driver since the last time I reinstalled Windows, maybe 6 or 8 months ago.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 28, 2015, 10:02:36 pm
content: Menu will look different depending on driver version and even GPU used (even if installing from the same file).

author: TRAPTRAP
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2015, 01:26:24 am
content: To those who think a 4K TV is a waste of my time/money... I think you misread what I've been saying. I want the TV for general multitasking, videos, and overall more screen real estate. I don't want it FOR the text to be bigger, it's just it's necessary that the text is able to be larger along with the screen, and displayed the same way it is on my 19". I was making sure I could keep my zoom the same as it already is, and with a bigger screen, just have more room for it all.HDMI looks great on higher resolution, BTW!

author: katzohki
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2015, 04:55:39 pm
content: Quote from: TRAPTRAP on January 29, 2015, 01:26:24 amSorry, I guess I did misunderstand then. BTW, have you ever noticed that the demo video on 4K TVs in stores repeats after a few minutes? That's because you can only fit a few minutes worth of video on a standard BluRay disc. Apparently they're working on a format for BluRay that will fit a 2hr movie.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 29, 2015, 05:17:32 pm
content: Quote from: katzohki on January 29, 2015, 04:55:39 pmLess than a 1080p with the same compression ratio but not few minutes. You could expect 4x reduced length worst case.

author: katzohki
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2015, 06:13:39 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on January 29, 2015, 05:17:32 pmI did the math once and it came out around 6 minutes, but of course you're right it depends on the compression. If they compress it so much then there's almost no point in calling it 4K anymore, but this is why it's good news they're working on 100GB BluRay discs. Hopefully the compression will not be "too" bad. I know I can tell the difference with streaming (Netflix, DTV PPV) vs BluRay.Oops, sorry for hijacking the thread!

author: mariush
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2015, 07:27:56 pm
content: The maximum ("legal") bitrate for bluray is around 48 mbps for both video and audio, 40 mbps for just video. For 1 1/2h - 2h videos, bitrate would probably average at around 20-25 mbpsThe 4k demos are probably encoded to use about 60-100 mbps, so about 4-5 times what's used for regular HD. Therefore, discs can probably store more than 20-30 minutes of 4k video.There's a new version of blurays... quoting from another site:Discs will be available in two varieties—66 GB dual layer and 100 GB triple layer with data-transfer rates up to 108 Mbps from a 66 GB disc and up to 128 Mbps from a 100 GB disc. The laser system is roughly the same as the current Blu-ray spec tuned for the new higher-density disc structure. Obviously, the pixel resolution will be up to 3840x2160, and players will have HDMI 2.0 outputs with HDCP 2.2 copy protection. Finally, HEVC encoding will be used.Ultra HD Blu-ray players must be able to read both of the new formats as well as HD Blu-ray discs. Other mandatory features include support for high dynamic range in the form of SMPTE ST 2084 and 2086, which are open standards that include PQ gamma. The HDR info is encoded as metadata so the content can be played on a non-HDR display. Also, players must support frame rates up to 60 fps and color gamuts up to BT.2020 with 10-bit resolution. Finally, they must decode all the current audio formats and provide passthrough for all immersive-audio bitstreams.Optional features that manufacturers can choose to implement or not include support for Dolby Vision and Philips HDR as well as DVD and CD playback. Another optional feature is called Digital Bridge, which will let the player copy Ultra HD Blu-ray content from the disc to internal storage if available. It also allows you to export an HD or SD copy of the content to an external device for portability. (The rep I spoke with didn't know if Digital Bridge would let you export full-resolution UHD content.)