SMT probes comparison - Probe Master 8151 Vs Pomona 6341/ TL910 inc X-Ray images - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2016, 07:11:55 pm
content: I purchased a set of Probe Master 8151 multimeter probes for SMT work on high component density PCB's populated with the likes of 0402 components.Commentary on that purchase decision may be found here:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/very-nice-smt-multimeter-probes-from-probe-master/msg1015221/#msg1015221The Probe Master SMT probes have interchangeable sprung and non-sprung tips to suit the users needs in any situation. The tips are available as spare parts and are easy to replace.Pomona/Fluke also offer a probe set, under the ID 6341 / TL910, that has interchangeable SMT probe tips similar to the Probe Master, but with much smaller handles.I received a set of the Pomona 6341 probes today and decided to provide a photographic and X-Ray image comparison for this forum. The Probe Master is a far more robust looking and feeling design that should last many years in the lab. The Pomona offering, whilst likely well made, looks a little flimsy and fragile for my liking. Pomona have opted for slim handles on the probes and very thin connecting cables. I suspect that, treated with care, the Pomona probes will also last a long time, but they do look like a good tug on the cables could cause damage.My X-Ry images reveal the internal construction of the probes. Again, the Probe master probes appear of a more robust design that is more complex than the Pomona construction technique.I will be using both sets of probes in the lab as sometimes you want very slim and compact probes and for such scenarios the Pomona probes will be ideal.The probe leads are approximately the same length. I opted for the retractable sleeved straight 4mm plugs on the Probe Master probes and the Pomona probes come as standard with the right angle sleeved 4mm plugs.Take a look at the pictures and X-Ray images and decide for yourself which suits your needs better. I am lucky to now have bothFraser

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2016, 07:13:58 pm
content: More Pictures......

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2016, 07:15:05 pm
content: More pictures....

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2016, 07:16:27 pm
content: Probe lead lengths

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2016, 07:18:50 pm
content: X-Ray images begin here........Probe Master Probes

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2016, 07:20:03 pm
content: Pomona Probes

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2016, 07:21:06 pm
content: Probe Master Vs Pomona images

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2016, 08:02:53 pm
content: I was also fortunate enough to be given a pile of unwanted empty Pomona probe kit 'tool rolls' some time ago. Such are perfect for protecting my SMT probes in transit or when not in useI am not sure whether Pomona sell these as an accessory. I have used several for other types of probe such as HP LogicDart leads and grabbers. Darned useful I must say.Fraser

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2016, 08:33:15 pm
content: Nice workFraser.To me, the Achilles heel of the Pomona/Fluke set is the strain relief (don't recall they actually have one).As per the accessory rolls, it's available;Pomona 5955(didn't find them on CPC or Farnell).Probemaster offers some stuff as well, such as a tri-fold pouch and a few hard plastic boxes w/ foam lining (Probemaster Storage Products).

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2016, 08:40:41 pm
content: Thanks nanofrog.I was given approx 20 of the probe tool rolls as the end user repackaged the original comprehensive pride kit contents in a Pelicase along with the test equipment. At the time I did not have much use for them but over the years they have been perfect for keeping specialist cables and connectors tidy.I am pleased that you found this thread of interest. Sometimes I generate a thread and wonder if it is just me that is interested in the contentFraser

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2016, 09:11:03 pm
content: Quote from: Fraser on September 02, 2016, 08:40:41 pmYou're welcome.I'm sure it was a fair bit of work, and given hobbyist budgets, I find information like this very valuable as not to waste funds on crap. Expensive or otherwise, and regardless of brand or COO.You got lucky on all of those pouches.I'm using 3 ring binder pencil pouches w/ a clear window for my probes. And the ability to use colors to help ID what I'm after is great, such as matching the color of the scope channel and pouch.Cheap too at ~$1.00 each locally, and they can hang off of pegboard or be tossed in a big binder to try and keep things a bit more tidy.

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2016, 09:41:35 pm
content: Those look excellent

author: bitseeker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2016, 09:57:08 pm
content: Quote from: Fraser on September 02, 2016, 08:40:41 pmProbably just a case of folks being intrigued, but not having anything to add to the conversation.I have some of the ProbeMaster 8000 probes for my DMMs and like them a lot. The retractable banana plugs are really convenient when you have equipment with different jacks. The tips are really sharp too, as my fingers will attest to from a couple of accidental stabbings.So, what makes these specifically for SMT use? Longer/narrower tips?

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2016, 10:34:36 pm
content: SMT multiimeter probes often need to be very small diameter towards the tip and have a very fine pint on them. This is to permit access to the end of a SMT component without shorting across to an adjacent component. When recently working on a closely packed SMT PCB, my standard Fluke probe tips were huge in comparison to the 0402 parts I was probing. Also, when probing closely spaced IC pins you want the probe to definitely contact the required pin, and no others. You also want it to stay put on the pin. A slip causing a short to another pin can be fatal to the IC in some cases.SMT probes are fragile beasts as well. The need for a thin needle sharp tip makes them vulnerable to drop damage or just heavy handed use. The ability to change the tip easily is therefore important. It also provides the ability to choose different tip shapes for different scenarios. My probes came with a selection of tip profiles, including multi point types that cut into solder and hold fast.Any needle pointed probe may be used for SMD work. I have used 'back probes' that are common in the automotive diagnostics industry. However the probes I have detailed in this thread are designed for the task and for excellent performance, with built in maintainability.Fraser

author: eKretz
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2016, 11:19:55 pm
content: Very nice! That's some very informative imaging, thanks! I have the Pomona set, but I'm not super happy with their construction/feel. They also read fairly high resistance compared to what I expected unless they are kept under moderate pressure with the DUT connections. They look considerably more flimsy in your XRay shots than the Probemasters internally. Thanks for sharing!

author: bitseeker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2016, 12:27:29 am
content: Thanks, Fraser. I haven't done a lot of probing of SMT that small. Good to know!

author: CustomEngineerer
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2016, 03:11:10 am
content: I had also ordered the 8151 set last week. I finally had a chance to open them up to play around with them tonight and noticed something that doesn't quite look right on the red probe (see pics). The plastic down close to the tip looks like someone tried to cut it open. After seeing the x-ray pics above (thanks by the way for posting those...very cool), I was thinking maybe the plastic would screw off and so wasn't supposed to be fully connected. But when I try to twist it it doesn't seem to want to budge. Having seen all the pics in this thread as well as the other 2 threads, plus the fact that the black probe is solid all the way around, now makes me think maybe someone else already had these probes and damaged the red probe and so decided to return them.Curious if anyone else noticed similar on their probes. Its probably not a big deal, I have actually tried using the probes and don't notice any problems in use. I went ahead and sent an email to probemaster a little while ago, but don't expect to hear anything until next week.

author: Tom45
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2016, 03:38:03 am
content: I'll add my thanks for the detailed info on these probes.You motivated me to get a couple of sets of the 8151. Can you comment on your choice of straight vs. right angle banana plug?Tom

author: CustomEngineerer
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2016, 07:58:01 am
content: I got the 8151 set. These have the straight plug with retractable shroud, so they can plug into either socket type (shrouded or un-shrouded). The right angle plugs (8150) also have the shroud, but on these the shroud can not be retracted, so they can only plug into the types of sockets that require the shroud.

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2016, 08:27:31 am
content: Customengineer,That Red probe sleeve anomally is a production fault. You are right to return the probe set.Fraser

author: voltsandjolts
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 03, 2016, 09:23:06 am
content: Thanks Fraser, nice comparisonPersonally, I prefer the Pomona (also rebranded as Fluke) probes just because of the small size but that comes with a caveat: they have a big production quality issue. Many of them seem to have poor connection somewhere in the handle, I have had several sets that were bad. Try shorting yours out and wiggle them a little, any issues? 10 to 100ohm variation!?I soldered bypass wires on a set of mine, just for very low voltage work ofcourse:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/finest-possible-multimeter-test-leads/msg720753/#msg720753[Edit: I first tried soldering the removable tip in place but that didn't help]...and its not just me who complains of this:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/fluke-tl-910-test-leads-poor-quality/

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2016, 10:18:27 am
content: @voltsandjolts,Thanks for the information. I will check mine today. I can report that both my Pomona probes had slightly bent handles when received. Transit or storage damage maybe. I straightened them easily though. Certainly quite fragile for the cost of them.Fraser

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2016, 11:01:59 am
content: I have just reviewed a completely different sort of probe here:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/metrix-stix-fused-test-probe-nice-quality-nos-ex-mod-stock-inc-x-ray-images/msg1018032/#msg1018032New old Military Stock and only £5 per kit !It is a fused probe of very nice quality. I X-Ray imaged it as well.Fraser

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2016, 03:32:24 pm
content: Got myself recently a 8000 series DMM lead kit and I must say I am not impressed.1. The mini grabbers are very hard to thread on the probe. This is also problem that is mentioned on their web site in a review from 2015.2. The mini grabbers are sticky. When I push them in they often stuck there. Sometimes for a fraction of a second, sometimes indefinitely.3. I ordered the 8043S end style which is the recommended one for Fluke's DMMs. The metal contact of that plug is ~5mm longer than Fluke (TL71) or Pomona test leads (21mm vs 16mm). This causes it not get inserted all the way and it protrudes above the surface of my Fluke 107 (no such problem with Fluke or Pomona probes).4. The probes are too short compared to other vendors and don't clear my hands. I am referring to the portion of the probe that you hold in your end, from the resting point of the fingers to the top end of the probe (82mm for the Probemaster vs 102mm for the Fluke TL71).Considering the reviews here and the fact that this is a small American company that specializes in probes I expected more.The good points are that they are very responsive (will send me working mini grabbers) and I like the general design of accessories that thread directly over the probe point.

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2016, 04:49:49 pm
content: Quote from: Fraser on September 02, 2016, 10:34:36 pmThe spring action helps with this, but I've been very careful not to apply side pressure to keep from bending the tips. And so far, so good.Actually, they actually feel robust for what they are, but I'm not going to push my luck.Quote from: CustomEngineerer on September 03, 2016, 03:11:10 amIt appears as if it's from an employee manually trimming off excess flashing before assembling them. As that's a defect, you'd definitely be right to ask for a replacement set (should have been caught during the final QC inspection).Quote from: Tom45 on September 03, 2016, 03:38:03 amPersonally, I prefer the retractable banana (straight) as they're universal.Their one caveat would be they're a bit more prone to damage if you drop the meter with them plugged in (i.e. hit the plugs first & bend if the impact is hard enough). I've not experienced this, but it is something you'd want to be cautious of IMHO.Quote from: zapta on September 03, 2016, 03:32:24 pmSorry to hear that.I'd recommend sending that set back, and replace it with a 9000 series set (I've not had the accessory issues you describe, ever).You'll like the probe handles better as they're like traditional probes; hard plastic. They're 90mm from the finger stop to the start of the strain relief on the lead, and they fit my hands well (I'm tall & have hands to match). FWIW, the probe length consists of probe accessory + connector.You never have to screw accessories on; truly plug-n-play.Never have to deal with the probe body pulling your connections loose.More extensive kits available, which are a better value.I'd also advise getting them with the retractable banana's. I find them far better for bench use, including handheld DMM's as you don't peg the strain relief to it's limits as much, reducing wear.One thing about the 8000 series probe bodies though; although they do take a little bit to get used to, they work well once you do. For disclosure, I thought they were too small and felt weird too at first, but changed my mind after giving them a few days (a good 15 - 20hrs).Now I find themveryeffective on the Spring Loaded Probes, as they make it easier to get to your test points on densely packed PCB's.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2016, 05:15:02 pm
content: Quote from: Tom45 on September 03, 2016, 03:38:03 amI would think that for a portable DMM (laying flat on the bench), right angle is a better fit and that straight is more 'natural' for a bench DMM where the face of the meter is vertical.

author: CustomEngineerer
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2016, 05:25:23 pm
content: Quote from: Fraser on September 03, 2016, 08:27:31 amThanks for the confirmation.

author: bitseeker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2016, 05:25:48 pm
content: Quote from: zapta on September 03, 2016, 05:15:02 pmThat's certainly true. If, however, you intend to use the probes with various meters and don't need/want to have dedicated sets, then the straight plugs with retractable shrouds are a good, flexible choice.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2016, 05:27:12 pm
content: Quote from: nanofrog on September 03, 2016, 04:49:49 pmThe 9000 series looks very similar to offerings from other vendors (Pomona, ebay, digikey, etc).Are there other vendors the use the screw-the-attachments-on-the-main-probe approach of the 8000 series? Seems more manageable to me, no need to search where did I place the removable main probe tips.

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2016, 06:10:13 pm
content: Quote from: zapta on September 03, 2016, 05:27:12 pmThey are; you can connect them to any 4mm banana jack accessories on the market.And Yes, I've seen screw-on accessories from other vendors such as Fluke/Pomona, Mueller Electric, and Simpson.Not sure about Hirschmann, but I'd check them out too. You could also see if you can locate some NOS from Oldaker (they had a fire and are currently non-operational). This stuff, like the 4mm banana's are standardized.But I have to ask, can't you return them and get something else, Probemaster or otherwise?There are other well made test probes with threaded tips & silicone wire.As per the main probe dilemma for the 9000 series, you could get an additional set of leads (just the wires) and always leave the probe ends connected.You wouldn't evenhaveto use Probemaster brand, but I would recommend it as the connector end and probe are the same diameter (connector insulation thickness may vary from other brands). I mention this, as I suspect you'd have an issue if it didn't (would certainly bug me at any rate).

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2016, 06:35:49 pm
content: With regard to the 'straight' versus 'elbow' plug on the 815x probes...As has already been stated, it is an issue of what best suits your needs and equipment. Many modern test equipments will accept a 4mm fixed shroud plug...... but many older equipments use a plain 4mm socket that cannot accept such shrouded plugs.These probe sets are not cheap in the UK so I elected to buy the straight plug version (8151) in order to achieve best compatibility with all of my test equipment. It is possible to purchase 'shrouded to non-shrouded' adapters but that is an additional connection in the probe path. My Fluke 87 III sits at 45 Degrees on my bench so straight plugs are not an issue for me. My bench meters all have vertical fronts that suit straight plugs as well.An important piece of equipment that I want to use with these probes is the Huntron Tracker and that is equipped with non shrouded 4mm sockets. Shrouded plugs would be a distinct disadvantage for me and safety is not a concern as I will be using the SMT probes at low voltages only.Hope this helps to explain my decision making process.Fraser

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2016, 10:08:58 pm
content: Quote from: nanofrog on September 03, 2016, 06:10:13 pmYes, this is probably what I will do. Probemaster seems to be responsive and decent people so I don't expect problem.I will look for similar design (attachment thread over the main probe) from other vendors and if will no find something I like with keep using the Pomona leads I have now.

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2016, 03:36:08 am
content: Quote from: zapta on September 03, 2016, 10:08:58 pmFWIW, Probemaster will do what they can to make it right from what I've heard (never had to do so myself, so this is second hand info).Best of luck getting it sorted to your satisfaction (and quickly as well).

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2016, 04:08:55 am
content: Quote from: nanofrog on September 04, 2016, 03:36:08 amI opened my DMM and realized that there is a clearance of 4mm or so for the banana plug so If I will trim 3-4mm from the shroud it may fit reasonably well. Will wait for the replacement min grabbers before trying the non reversible mod.

author: CustomEngineerer
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 07, 2016, 01:04:29 am
content: I had sent an email to to probemaster Friday evening (after business hours) about the issue I reported earlier in the thread with the red probe. I received a response today (next business day) that they would ship me out a replacement red probe immediately, and I could either keep or throw away the other probe. Definitely good customer service, and definitely happy customer here.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2016, 03:27:42 am
content: Got today the replacement min grabbers from Probemaster. These pairs threads easily on the probes and are not sticky. I also shorten about 4mm from the banana shrouds and they now fit my Fluke 107 much better. I like these probes. Life is good.

author: android
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 20, 2016, 01:13:19 pm
content: FWIW, here is my "x-ray" image of a Fluke TL910 probe that I got the sh1ts with bigtime.I couldn't get a steady resistance reading no matter how much each lead was jiggled - anything from 3 to 400. They were second hand so I can't rule out abuse by the previous owner.Anyway, last year I bought another set from element14 (or RS Components, I can't remember) which I haven't used for about 6 months, and when I measured them today each was reading 3-4.5consistently. Strangely, after I gave each lead a gentle twist (say 180 degrees) close to the probe handle the resistance reading came down to a consistent 0.1-0.2.I have no idea why that happened - but I tested each lead in turn and got the same result.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 20, 2016, 01:42:08 pm
content: I have those small Pomona probes, I agree they look fragile but I am used of being carefull with smt stuff like my irons, they are also fragile compared to the standard irons.Anyway what I do like about the small handles is that I can measure holding both probes with only a single (even left) hand, having one hand free for adjustments on the meter or other handling.What I do not like is since they lay on my bench a lot they are sharp as hell, and in the last one and a half year have stinged myself on them numerous times even too bleading.

author: bitseeker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 20, 2016, 07:16:15 pm
content: Quote from: android on September 20, 2016, 01:13:19 pmThat's quite a detailed "x-ray" imager you have there.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2016, 05:36:41 am
content: Quote from: zapta on September 09, 2016, 03:27:42 amAfter a few weeks of using the probemasters I must say, I love them. They feel comfortable in the hand, sharp tips, stable contacts, handy grabbers, very flexible wires, wires are right length (I got the 36") and spare parts are available at reasonable cost (just ordered extra tip insulators, 30c each, free shipping). Great products and a great company.

author: android
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2016, 07:02:12 am
content: Quote from: zapta on October 02, 2016, 05:36:41 am<sigh>Pity they're not available in Australia...RS Components: no hitsElement14: no hitsDigikey: 4,892,262 hits (their entire stock inventory apparently, so effectively no hits)Mouser: no hitsGoogle: the usual mish mash of links that go nowhere having a "buy" button.Ebay: no hits (not even fake ones oddly)...well, at least I tried.

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2016, 08:32:57 am
content: Quote from: android on October 02, 2016, 07:02:12 amThey sell directly rather than through distributors. Fortunately they ship internationally, so it's possible to get a set.

author: android
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2016, 12:28:57 pm
content: Quote from: nanofrog on October 02, 2016, 08:32:57 amUsually I don't even consider buying direct from the USA because the shipping to Australia is often outrageous, but it's only $15 USD in this case so I ordered a set...$73 AUD total. I've cheered up a bit now

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2016, 01:51:44 pm
content: Quote from: android on October 02, 2016, 12:28:57 pmI suspect you'll really pleased once you get your hands on them.BTW, what's the ETA?

author: android
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2016, 12:14:22 pm
content: Quote from: nanofrog on October 02, 2016, 01:51:44 pm...only took 9 days (I stuffed the order up and had to sort that out first). They arrived today and my first impression is very positive.

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2016, 03:27:30 pm
content: Quote from: android on October 20, 2016, 12:14:22 pm9 days isn't bad IMHO.Enjoy.To put things into perspective, it took 12 calendar days to get my prescription eye glasses from Zenni.com (lab is in China). Just got them yesterday and my initial impression of them is quite good. Now I just need to get them adjusted properly.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 14, 2024, 06:04:24 am
content: I bought some. I don't need them of course, I would prefer to just keep slipping my probe off irregular surfaces and wasting my time when the grabber hook disconnects from the probe.I have been meaning to do this for years.I thought you are supposed to jam the probe under a lead and pry upwards to get a good measurementjam a paper clip in the BNC and hold the board against the scope for some good free spring action?