Life Advice - Don't Easily Dismiss or Lose Respect for People - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 05, 2022, 03:50:26 am
content: Life advice time - Don't easily dismiss people from your life or "lose respect" for people, or unfollow them or stop watching their content because you didn't like something they said or something they do or don't believe in. This adds no value to your life and you will miss out on so much potentially good stuff. It will also make you more susceptible to binary tribalism, group think, and ideology driven politics and movements that will make things even worse for you and for society.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2022, 04:10:01 am
content: Yeah, I've unsubbed from a couple channels because they went all MAGA/Qanon/antivax. And no matter what anyone says it was a good decision for my mental health.This may be applicable to trivial things, like what brand of laptops someone likes, or what OS is better. But there are so many clearly wrong opinions out there. And there is no chance that those people would contribute meaningfully to my life. And I'm not about to argue with random strangers on the internet or try to convince anyone that they are wrong.

author: golden_labels
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2022, 05:18:27 am
content: What kind of absurdity is that?! I unsubscribe from you!If someone consumes content from $person for years and throws all that away because of a single comment, I can’t avoid one question: why did they follow $person before that? The content did not change, so obviously neither should preferences. If they did change, then what was attracting one to $person? It sounds too much like a teenager going angry about their favourite artist changing appearance and tearing down all their posters.ataradov: I believe that’s about single occurances, not someone going completely nuts and mentioning what you disagree with in every other video.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2022, 05:30:44 am
content: It is obviously hard to comment without details of the comment that prompted that video, but my guess would be it is more of a cumulative thing. I can't imagine someone really unsubscribing because of one comment or opinion. The comment is just the last straw.And the content does not necessarily stays the same over time, which also contributes to a desire to move on. And the opinion is just a final reason.And it does not have to be extreme. If someone start to promote NFTs or crypto - I'm out. And I don't see how I would even give a second chance, since your stuff will no longer be shown to me. Only if the algorithm suggests something at a later date, I guess.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 05, 2022, 06:14:47 am
content: Quote from: ataradov on July 05, 2022, 04:10:01 amSeriously?So if a channel you follow and get value from goes and says they suport Trump, then there is suddenly no value in their content any more?Sorry, but this says more about your personal hatred in something than it does about objective value in content.I'm not saying continue to support people you hate, but just don't be so rash as to easily dismiss their good stuff because of one hangup you might have.Your attitude is exactly what I was warning against might happen in the video if you chose to go down this path.Statistically half of all US content creators will be Trump/MAGA in some way. You aren't going to watch any of them any more because of that? More fool you.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2022, 06:23:30 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on July 05, 2022, 06:14:47 amThere may be value, but hopefully it is not the only place to get that value. And all else being equal, I'd rater it not be this channel.Quote from: EEVblog on July 05, 2022, 06:14:47 amYes. There is a TON of content. And a lot of it is duplicate. I don't see "giving up" as a huge loss. I'm not giving up on getting the information, I'm just giving up on getting the information from that place. Me consuming that content monetarily supports the creator, and I don't care to support some of them in any way.

author: iMo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2022, 06:29:33 am
content: One needs fun and entertainment in his life too.. Watching some discussions or topics (even here) makes fun and I like it..

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2022, 06:36:44 am
content: Quote from: ataradov on July 05, 2022, 04:10:01 amAnd yet here you are on EEVblog doing just that. Argue with somewhat random strangers

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2022, 06:45:58 am
content: Quote from: pcprogrammer on July 05, 2022, 06:36:44 amThat's different. I don't mind discussing technical topics as there may be actual merits to both (or many) sides . And even then if it is not fun anymore or going nowhere - I just stop. I don't feel the need to convince anyone of anything.There is literally no upside or reason to discuss whether slavery is good.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2022, 07:36:38 am
content: I unsubscribed from a couple of channels over the last year over content. The issue is that I subscribe for one type of content and this slowly fades out into whatever sells clicks because YT pushes attention over content. What you end up with is people seeing their political and personal comments at the forefront with the content secondary.Ergo it’s more nuanced than just keep watching. YT is actively destroying content for attention metrics.

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2022, 09:16:15 am
content: ITT: people who don't think their decisions are/should be political, when in fact they are.(How's that for a thread throwback? Still not convinced?...)----As a rhetorical point in regards to the OPost -- turn it around: Why do things that risk losing your respect from others? Are they the sort of people who should respect you in the first place?[I'm not invested in this thread at all, certainly not enough to watch a 10 minute video if that's any indication -- so if this was considered, a summary will suffice.]Tim

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2022, 09:27:57 am
content: Quote from: ataradov on July 05, 2022, 06:45:58 amYou are right, and that is one of the reasons this is is the only forum I'm active on. There are good engineers here that give proper advise and no "shit slinging" like seen on a lot of forums. A good joke once and a while and a certain amount of respect for each other.I do have a youtube account, but that is not a forum and one of the easiest ways to share a video. The account was born out of necessity to provide information for an Aliexpress dispute in the time they did not have video upload themself's.Also loosing interest in youtube since it is becoming more and more loud and full of nonsense, and also more of the same.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2022, 09:53:39 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on July 05, 2022, 06:14:47 amI was going to comment exactly that. I have unsubscribed from just a few channels, but for the reasons also mentioned by bd139: content started to drift away from the original focus that attracted me in the first place. However, that is applicable to technical and personal interests - for news channels, I can tell their stances on current matters pushed me out, but I subscribed to them for a different reason altogether (I don't need deception from a news organization). But to take me to this point it needs to have a very long track record - the only time I unsubscribed for spite I returned after realizing the err of my ways.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2022, 11:53:52 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on July 05, 2022, 06:14:47 amThis may be my first political post (most likely my last).My parents were politically on two ends of the spectrum. While I never once heard them argue over it, they certainly did laugh about it. One of the common jokes was of course, canceling their votes.I was talking with my wife about WWII and the bombing of civilians. We ended up finding some footage on YT. While trying to locate a speech that Winston Churchill had given about it, we watched where he visited the USA to address congress. It was a stark reminder of how we have changed over the last 80 years and how some thing remain the same. We are intolerant to the point of fracturing our communities and our families.I used to watch this young ladies channel (she no longer creates YT content) and was reminded of a video she had made on the same subject.Feel free to pull the post as it is against the forums rules. I will not take any offense to it.

author: golden_labels
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2022, 03:01:06 pm
content: This thread fills me with sadness.Seriously, what do you think you achieve by no longer consuming content from a creator that just made a few comments you dislike? Not talking about their entire content deteriorating or them peddling such opinions all the time. That’s not the case discussed here.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2022, 03:30:46 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on July 05, 2022, 06:14:47 amIMHO at some point enough is enough. When people start to deny science or do really stupid stuff, I'm out.Someone I know is born abroad but nevertheless is involved in a right-wing local party. The plans of this party would prevent him or his family to live in certain areas of the city. And don't get him started on Covid -even though that killed one of his siblings-. Sorry, but I can't have any respect for a person that is so obviously lost in a fantasy world.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2022, 03:32:17 pm
content: Yes when someone starts spouting bollocks and shows a lack of critical thinking, you have to question the credibility of what they say in other aspects of their lives.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2022, 04:22:29 pm
content: I dated a girl who's mom was very religious. I'm fine with that but was amazed how it controlled her life. To the point of who they could associate with. Later, a friend of mine married a lady who was also part of that same organization. Similar story. If you want to control someone, a good first step is isolate them.(and there's my one and only religious post. last time I was banned it was in a technical thread for abuse of trolls.)

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2022, 04:33:00 pm
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on July 05, 2022, 04:22:29 pmThat is not just for religion. Works for governments tooDoes not always work though, some people get out of prison being even bigger criminals.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2022, 04:34:47 pm
content: While I'm on a roll, one story comes to mind (well a lot of them do) but I remember when MIT pulled the plug on Walter Lewin. At first I jumped to the conclusion that it was some child he had gotten involved with. Nope some french lady in her 30's on the other side of the globe was able to take him out. Both adults, I could care less what they did on-line. Good job MIT!https://thetech.com/2014/12/09/walterlewin-v134-n60So many cases, so much BS. (and there's my one comment on the educational system... oh wait, that's not off limits)

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2022, 04:56:50 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on July 05, 2022, 06:14:47 am

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2022, 05:04:05 pm
content: I don't approve sexual harassment, or other forms of harassment, but I think society has become a bit to sensitive. (Might not be the correct way of saying it in English, but hope you get the point)To put it absurdly you have to basically video any consensual sexual encounter to not be possibly sewed for sexual harassment, because otherwise it is she said, he said and guess who wins.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2022, 09:23:37 pm
content: Quote from: T3sl4co1l on July 05, 2022, 09:16:15 amThat is also a good point. I think some Youtubers even use that to their advantage by targeting to a certain group of people. IMHO Thunderfoot is a good example of a Youtuber that caters to a typical nay-saying crowd by making FUD videos that have no scientific merit at all. You can shoot holes the size of the moon into his reasoning but people still seem to love it.

author: KaneTW
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2022, 09:29:43 pm
content: Thunderfoot is a good example of a person who I stopped watching because I lost respect to. Not out of any particular view, but because he does not have respect for other people and talks like everyone but him is an idiot.

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2022, 09:48:35 pm
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on July 05, 2022, 04:22:29 pmIndeed, religion serves as a collective narcissism, creating abusive, controlling, gaslighting relationships, designed to keep one on the inside, confused and passive. Perhaps even more insidious: while using the same psychological exploits as an abusive partner, it's largely self-imposed, by the theology itself. A reader might argue, this is pessimistic, or hyperbolic: "maybe that describes the most fanatical cults, but those are few, and mainstream religion doesn't fit that". Perhaps, but it's also impossible to tell from the inside. On the inside, it's "us vs. them", all against the forces of evil.I've been fairly atheist for a long time, but this realization utterly sealed the deal for me. In fact this is one "personal change" moment I have a citation for -- TheraminTrees on YT is a psychologist with personal and professional experience with such relationships [i.e. personal and religious], regularly putting out videos discussing aspects of this dynamic. Unfortunately, there's not much you can do to help a person stuck in such a relationship -- it's up to them to make the escape. Be compassionate, feed them information when you can; be there for them if/when they decide to break out -- but also, don't throw yourself into it, and indeed, if they're very vocal about their thing, and highly resistant to change -- don't waste your time, preserve your sanity.Tim

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2022, 10:12:07 pm
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on July 05, 2022, 04:34:47 pmRegardless of age or location, MIT is free to fire him for abusing the student teacher relationship and their policies. You cannot make an accurate moral judgment without seeing the evidence, which we will never be able to do.The overreaction, however, of removing his past lectures etc. is sort of part of what Dave is getting at. It should not be necessary to "cancel" his content.Quote from: golden_labels on July 05, 2022, 05:18:27 amYeah that seems to be the disconnect.Dave rarely mentions crypto, atheism, etc. and when he does its not a main feature of the content. If its the main focus of their content, its kind of a different story.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2022, 10:13:31 pm
content: Quote from: KaneTW on July 05, 2022, 09:29:43 pmYep. I stopped following him once he figured out that "debunking" generates clicks and just started debunking everything and everyone. Apart from the superiority complex, it is also not that interesting to watch.

author: armandine2
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2022, 10:45:48 pm
content: Society's Arbitrary Judgement 13:33 ->it's a cruel world

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2022, 11:05:27 pm
content: That's a huge pile of BS and has that self help inspirational scam vibe.

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2022, 11:28:55 pm
content: One tenth of whatIsaac Newtonwrote was about alchemy. Will you ignore the rest of his output because of that?Everyone has opinions, and they change. They're not that interesting, really. What is interesting, is the reasons for those opinions.I know quite a few accomplished physicists who would love to investigate UFO phenomena and various fringe science topics, but cannot, because it would tarnish their reputation and damage their career, probably irreparably. Yet, there is no harm in investigating anything scientifically. While the likelihood of uncovering anything is very small, such discoveries would have quite a high value, so why denigrate anyone doing that?Just because someone has an odd opinion or two, doesn't matter much. It is how they interact with others that matter. If they are not willing to examine the reasons for their own beliefs, but poke fun at others', what value does their own beliefs have?Remember Isaac, and the effect he had on science and human life and everything.

author: aeberbach
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2022, 11:32:12 pm
content: I don't know... Dave uses the "cancel" word as if removing sources of bullshit from your life is an example of so-called "cancel culture". Then later says "simply ignore them". Also there's a "Dodgy Technology" forum right here for mocking various things (put your hand up if you have never teased an audiophile!) - seems like the dark path as he calls it is here and has been as long as I remember. What's the difference?

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2022, 11:32:29 pm
content: Hah, Jordan Peterson -- dunking on him is kind of passe nowadays, not to say undeserved, mind -- but there's still a trickle of videos on that angle. Here's a recent one from an economist:Tim

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2022, 11:36:43 pm
content: Quote from: Nominal Animal on July 05, 2022, 11:28:55 pmNo, but I'll let others sift though the garbage and pick out relevant parts. Same applies to a lot of smart people of the past. If the contribution was peer reviewed and deemed good, I'm fine with that.If some of those youtubers come up with something lasting, I'll happily watch that too. I just don't want to be in a position to constantly filter out stuff myself.Quote from: Nominal Animal on July 05, 2022, 11:28:55 pmIt depends. I personally would welcome smart people investigating UFOs. This is not offensive, it is actually great.But if that physicist comes up with an opinion that women are inherently stupider than men and that's why you don't see them as much in science, I'd basically ignore any other opinions from that person.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2022, 11:59:38 pm
content: Quote from: thm_w on July 05, 2022, 10:12:07 pmAgree and would take it one step further suggesting they needed no reason. I want to be clear that I work in an "at-will" state and do not know anything about the law regarding this particular case. I had not realized I had made a moral judgement by stating that I did not care what two consenting adults do. "Good job MIT" refers to my view of how they handled the case by removing all of his content. I considered the work as educational and a benefit and had not considered it's removal as being moral or not. Rather a self destructing overreaction and not what I would expect from a place of higher education.There were other articles written at that time that provided more insight to what had happened.https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2015/01/23/complainant-unprecedented-walter-lewin-sexual-harassment-case-comes-forward

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2022, 01:15:25 am
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on July 05, 2022, 11:59:38 pmUnderstood, I don't think the removal of the work is moral no.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2022, 02:50:50 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on July 05, 2022, 03:50:26 amI agree with you. Just don't expect many people to ever change their behavior regarding this, though. It's probably not going to happen.But I'd even go a step further: I would advise actively seeking to hear/discuss with people that you disagree with. It's a lot more interesting in the end, and will make you grow. OTOH, only sticking to people that have the exact same opinions as you is basically fruitless. It just reinforces your beliefs and acts as an ego boost, neither of which is known to make you wiser or more intelligent.There are nuances in disagreeing of course. Some things are not opinions or views, but just bullshit. I'm not saying to waste your time with flat earthers, for instance, although listening to a couple of them may at least show you what this "movement" is all about and understand why this even exists, rather than just close your eyes.But many things are not *this* clear-cut, and I've seen many people, no matter what their education level was, that would discard some views or opinions based more on prejudice than facts. And yes, ultimately acting "tribal" - what is now called the "cancel culture" is nothing much else than basic tribal behavior.

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2022, 03:03:20 am
content: Quote from: ataradov on July 05, 2022, 11:36:43 pmMe neither. But I do like to hear people describe the reasons why they have a different opinion to me. I often learn something, even though my current opinions are not swayed at all. Hearing the same opinions again and again is tedious, really, even if I were to agree: nothing to learn there.It becomes easier when you realize that most people are wrong most of the time (and I include myself here, too).I especially like it when people more intelligent than I (which is not that rare) have a direct, critical, but friendly discussion about completely different opinions (which is kinda rare nowadays); when the participants are interested in the reasoning, and not interested in "gaining points". You know, civil, scientific or rational or philosophic discourse for the pleasure of it.Quote from: ataradov on July 05, 2022, 11:36:43 pmI'd find it interesting to find out how they'd respond to their opinion being shown to be factually wrong.(As an aside, nobody does science in full isolation, and how we interact with othersmatters. Judging individuals based only on their membership in any group or tribe is just idiotic. Unless, of course, the membership is exhibited by their behaviour, because how we behave, interact with others, matters.)To most of those that control the research purse strings, anything mentioning UFO or LENF causes a similar reaction as the above opinion does in you.There are very, very few organizations with administrations that are not affected by that or something like that to at least some degree.In Finland, the Academy of Finland funds research to the tune of 250,000,000 € plus every year, but they really, REALLY prefer to fund research that is already being done elsewhere, instead of completely new research. My guess is that they need to feel that they're at the very forefront of science, doing things that the big boys are doing. Go submit a research plan about UFO or LENF or gravity shielding, and they'll most certainly blacklist you forever, muttering something about Eugene Plodkletnov. Silly icky pink human stuff.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2022, 03:19:19 am
content: Quote from: Nominal Animal on July 06, 2022, 03:03:20 amThey won't do anything.Even in a more technical filed where 100% proof is possible there are still people rejecting reality. Look at audiophools. They are constantly and actively rejecting experiments that would prove them wrong. Like do you really think that talking to them adds any real value? There is an entertainment value in reading their BS, but not much more.Quote from: Nominal Animal on July 06, 2022, 03:03:20 amI'd reject that too. I don't want public funds to go into fringe areas with no defined possible or expected results. That's just invites scam artists. If you want to research UFOs - do it privately. People manage to find investors for anything.Also, research proposals must include expected methods and at least initial feasibility justification. What do you even put there for UFOs?

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2022, 04:28:49 am
content: Quote from: ataradov on July 05, 2022, 11:36:43 pmWomen being inherently stupider then man is definitely not true, but they are different. I'm not saying it as a bad thing, it is just the way it is. Having said that, it eventually boils down to individuality, as to what a person is capable of. Some woman are very good scientists in whatever field and some are not, and the same applies to man. The same applies for race.A problem with the human race is how we are still held back by basic instinct. We fear the unknown, and often it is justified because the unknown can harm you. Racism is born out of this fear. It is also basic instinct that brings the herd behavior. Safety in numbers, and comfort in what and whom is known.I can go on and on, but you get the drift.

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2022, 04:53:59 am
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on July 06, 2022, 02:50:50 amThis only works if you are open to what others have to say and are willing to revise your own point of view, which isn't always easy.I know a guy who is a member of Mensa, so has some intelligence, but is dead set in what he believes to be true and does not know the phrase "I don't know". During the whole covid endurance we had discussions about what was true and what not. To the day he still thinks the virus has not been isolated, and at some times even states it is not a virus. Where I say, does it matter what it is, there are people all over this world sick and dying from something. But that then is not true, it is just a normal seasonal occurrence. There is no end to that kind of discussions.The same applies for free energy and Nikola Tesla. There is no way to get him of his believe that everything Tesla invented is kept under the wraps for financial gain and protecting the mainstream energy companies from loosing their right to existence. I can explain to him over and over again what some of Tesla's ideas where actually about, but no dice.He kept the test he had to take before his Mensa admission, and gave it to me. Did not looked to difficult to me. They are in Dutch.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2022, 05:01:34 am
content: I thought it was universally known that Mensa is a way to extract $80/yr from suckers. Of course admission is easy, you need to know who your target audience is.

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2022, 05:19:16 am
content: Quote from: ataradov on July 06, 2022, 03:19:19 amRejecting is one thing; blacklisting is another.But I do understand: you believe that if a person is racist, misogynist, bigot, or otherwise unsocial, none of their opinions matter, and it is okay to exclude them from the "civilised society".I just disagree, mainly because some people change, some people stop changing in their early adulthood, and some people are just damaged somehow.If we start ostracising them, why not go whole hog into eugenics? It'd reduce the amount of people needed to be excluded, for one. Also, why just exclude or ostracize them, and not simply kill them to save resources? That's what happens in nature. Are you better than nature?How exactly do you determine where to draw that critical opinion line? By instinct? Popular opinion?Quote from: ataradov on July 06, 2022, 03:19:19 amA practical experiment combining visual and IR imaging using multiple networked wide-angle cameras, and hopefully correlation to radar data, to start actually classifying the phenomena based on reliable observations other than human eyes and shaky potato cameras.Start with a few clusters of full-sky (fisheye lens) cameras in both visual and IR, with a patch of sky covered in several cameras in each cluster for precise triangulation. Have them be networked and synchronized, so that pictures are taken simultaneously, and location and distance (altitude) can be determined. Best locations are government and university-owned land and structures to avoid vandalism and theft, which makes Academy support more important in principle than their monetary input.This is not expensive, and yet, for some reason, it has not been done anywhere yet (as far as us public is aware). Why? The stigma of a "bad opinion". It is a project where you need approval from many people (because they are full-sky cameras), too.As long as people sharing your opinions are holding the purse strings, nothing like that will be done. I guess the funds are better spend replicating research already done elsewhere.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2022, 05:29:37 am
content: Quote from: Nominal Animal on July 06, 2022, 05:19:16 amI do things based on my opinion. And if enough people don't want anything to do with you based on their opinion, then here is your answer. The line draws itself.There is a possibility of piling up, of course, and that's something we should work on.Quote from: Nominal Animal on July 06, 2022, 05:19:16 amBecause it is clear that nothing would be found. It is as stupid as SETI, and those people manged to get private financing. I'm sure UFO hunters can do that too if they really wanted.But also, if there is a vote and majority of people decide to fund UFO research, I'm fine with that. I personally would not vote for that, but I do support democracy.

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2022, 05:37:09 am
content: Quote from: ataradov on July 06, 2022, 05:29:37 amWell, I like individuals, but dislike people, so the line just huffed indignantly and vanished in disgust.Quote from: ataradov on July 06, 2022, 05:29:37 amWell, the US military seems to disagree, but I'm sure you know better. Your Opinion, after all, has drawn itself.

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2022, 05:44:04 am
content: Quote from: Nominal Animal on July 06, 2022, 05:19:16 amBut isn't that what the human race has done, putting themselves above nature. We eliminated, or at least we try, all our natural enemies and lost the ability to balance our selves.Excluding people based on whatever is a very tricky topic, but as an individual you can exclude then from your own life as much as you like as long as you don't offend them. The latter is very difficult nowadays, because a simple word can trigger an avalanche of shit.Quote from: Nominal Animal on July 06, 2022, 05:19:16 amWhy not take out the atmosphere in the equation and start the search in the near by space with observatories already in existence? One can also wonder why isn't there already some data available with all the space exploration ongoing?I'm not one to say aliens do not exist, but taking into account the size of the universe and our inability so far to travel outside our own star system, would this not most likely be true for these aliens too? Considering the same size of the universe, if we where to receive some signal from far away would that not be so old that the sending species can long be extinct?Just a couple of thoughtsEdit: just realized UFO's don't have to be alien and therefore might not show up in outer space. But then it just another man (sorry women, it is just the standard expression) made object and not really that interesting

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2022, 05:44:49 am
content: Quote from: Nominal Animal on July 06, 2022, 05:37:09 amUS military are exactly the people I don't want to have anywhere close to this. It is just another way for them to waste money. But it looks like they will be doing it anyway, so there is that. All we have to do is wait until they show us proof of UFOs.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2022, 08:03:21 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on July 05, 2022, 03:30:46 pmYes, like the women who believe gender is a social construct. Well that's nice until you're in hospital being raped by a 6' 6" man who was placed on a female ward because he identifies a woman.EDIT:This has actually happened. See links. Thank you to rsjsouza for searching for them on my behalf.here,here,hereQuote from: ataradov on July 05, 2022, 04:10:01 amI agree if their content was originally about something else, then they started to make it political, but if it's just because they stated they support Trump, then it's a bit pathetic. There are extremes on both sides. I also admit I stopped following a creator for political reasons. They did a video about how much they supported BLM, which I leg go, then they started going on about how much they hated Trump, so I stopped listening. To be honest I don't like either sides of the US political spectrum. I wish it wish it would stay over there.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2022, 02:20:46 pm
content: Quote from: ataradov on July 05, 2022, 10:13:31 pmThis was a similar process for me as well - the straw to me was a video about solar roadways that promised to have new information about the fraud but it was quite the repetition of older scenes to fill the 10 min mark for midroll ads. However, after a few years a redeeming video (at least to me) was released where he debunks a washing machine - despite still long and of debunking nature, it carried useful information that was interesting enough for me to watch.All in all, I find the concept of "following" a bit weird nowadays, since it has become close to stalking. Just like with many things in the early days of the internet, the innocence of having a group of people with similar interests was quite appealing. The occasional disagreements and catfights (on the fora of the time) were easily dismissed by simply leaving the discussion, powering off the computer, etc. In this way this is similar to what Dave mentions in the video: leave a discussion huffing and puffing and clicking on the "ignore user" button have very little consequences but to yourself.However, when an economy started to be created around it and, more importantly, people started to entangle their lives around it1, social media has become inescapable to also be exposed to the bad actors that used to be only "on the streets". Not only digitally, but these bad actors exploited the amplification effect and reach of social media to organize mobs that can now physically target (and threaten) people far away from their own locales. No wonder irresponsible statements calling for threats to individuals and their employment, or even terrorist organizations that managed to wreak havoc on large parts of cities were (and continue to be) successful. Anyone involved with social media can be exposed to a mob these days, therefore many end up catering to the collective accepted opinions without truly voicing their own opinions - nobody really knows how many disagree with the ridiculous ideas of modern culture spouted today, since even corporations (which hold a very tangible part of one's life - salary) got in the same bandwagon.1Before saying how only fools let their lives to be entangled by social media, think of how these sites are skillfully crafted by very smart individuals to be incredibly addictive - as addictive as cigarettes or drugs that plagued past generations, with the difference they are "free". Think that a child has any defense against it while they never lived in a world without social media? Think their addictive nature can be easily dismissed when the majority of the world's population consumes it in one way or another and the younger generations are becoming adults? Think again.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2022, 03:36:12 pm
content: Quote from: ataradov on July 05, 2022, 11:05:27 pmThe speech is done by a clinical psychologist, whose job is to help you help yourself.So yes, that's like saying that "Our comments here are filled with too much technical details".JPB is also against cancel culture, so many people mark him as extreme right, while his only sin is that he is not extreme left. Listen to one of his earlier lecture, where he is much more structured, and doesn't go with these extreme swings of thought process, that is difficult to follow.I agree with Dave, the issue with cancel culture, there is zero error for margin. People and American leftist corporations seem to put you on a blacklist after a single tweet, there is no possibility of redemption, no judge, no jury. Like Johny Depp, who become unemployed, after a certified mentally unstable person made some claims in an article. "That's it, you are done, and we are not even interested of what you have to say."

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2022, 03:38:54 pm
content: Cancel culture doesn't work anyway. If it did that absolute fucking mental bitch Katie Hopkins would be cleaning toilets but she's grifting on another social platform than instead. If you want rid of someone you need to let them burn in front of people.

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2022, 03:53:34 pm
content: Quote from: Zero999 on July 06, 2022, 08:03:21 amBut don't you have something happening in your neck of the woods at the momentDon't know all the ins and outs of it, but an English couple we know are not so happy with mister JohnsonHe does not allow me to ask him what "Boris" did because it is not his "friend" nor did he went to school with him. Have to ask what mister Johnson did. It is funny to hear him rant about it.

author: fourfathom
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2022, 04:02:23 pm
content: Quote from: ataradov on July 06, 2022, 05:29:37 amI would be interested in learning why you think SETI is stupid. I'm one who provided funding and used to be on the board of the SETI Institute.

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2022, 04:04:59 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on July 06, 2022, 03:38:54 pmAh you like history, because this is what they did with witches in the "dark" agesBut yes they will always look for an outlet to try and influence you. That is basically what humans do. Try to persuade others to see things their way. Same here, I'm putting out my vision and hope someone agrees with it. What others do with it is up to them. Just as it is up to me to take from this thread what I think is useful.Be it left wing, right wing or center for that matter all that they want is for you to join them.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2022, 05:07:06 pm
content: Quote from: fourfathom on July 06, 2022, 04:02:23 pmToo hard to verify the results, too little real world value. Even if you receive some intermittent or a singe event, was it a real signal from space? Or a microwave heating burritos on ISS? Or a new secret spy satellite? It is going to be Wow! signal all over again. Just a breeding ground for unverifiable theories or conspiracies.Of course if you receive a well modulated continuous signal that you can analyze, it would be great. And I would say it is worth trying for a few years. But if nothing is received in that time, then it is just a waste of time after that.I would apply similar logic to gravitational waves, for example. I'm extremely happy that it worked out, but if they built the setup and found nothing within 5 years, I'd cut public funding after that. And this get a huge pass since it is looking for a natural phenomenon and the real question is whether you can build the equipment sensitive enough to detect them.Searching for unknown artificial things is just too poorly defined. It is a good way to spend investor money with no possible accountability.And as i said, it is fine to spend private money on whatever you want. Some think it is a good idea to establish Mars colonies.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2022, 05:12:56 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on July 06, 2022, 03:38:54 pmSome of what she says is common sense. I don't agree with all of it, but her views should be represented by the mainstream media, especially the BBC. It doesn't matter how controversial they are.Quote from: pcprogrammer on July 06, 2022, 03:53:34 pmWhat exactly are you talking about?The economy going down the shitter.House prices and even rental being too high for the average person to afford.The health system on its knees.Women's rights being eroded.The police prancing around in rainbow coloured crap and worrying about hate, er I mean thought, crime whilst real crimes such as burglary and child sex trafficking go unsolved.Children being indoctrinated with extremism in school.QuoteHe's just a distraction from the real problems. I don't give a fuck about him.

author: Kim Christensen
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2022, 06:19:08 pm
content: Quote from: tszaboo on July 06, 2022, 03:36:12 pmHaving watched quite a few of Jordan Peterson's videos, I have come to the conclusion that he's gone off the rails. Yes, his early lecture videos are very interesting and still have value today. So they are worth watching and shouldn't be "cancelled"... He's a very eloquent speaker and explains things very well. But his later stuff is laced with paranoia, and I can no longer trust it, so I've stopped watching his stuff. BecauseIam not a clinical phycologist I can not discern if any parts of what he is now peddling is BS or not... So watching is actually dangerous; I don't want to be brainwashed or misinformed. He is still very convincing though.Now if Jordan Peterson was putting out great electronics videos instead, I would have not problem still watching him because his political/phycological opinions should have no real effect on that. Plus, I'm fairly well versed in the subject, so BS would be easy to detect.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2022, 06:33:39 pm
content: After reading posts in this thread, there seems to be a lot of hate with few exceptions. What's up with that?

author: fourfathom
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2022, 06:48:06 pm
content: Quote from: ataradov on July 06, 2022, 05:07:06 pmThank you. I wouldn't mind debating many of these points, but this isn't the place for that.

author: Microdoser
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2022, 06:59:28 pm
content: As someone said upthread, there is far far more content being made on Youtube, and the internet generally, than one person is able to consume even if they did nothing else.You have to skip so many videos and other content for absolutely no reason, so if you find the slightest reason to not watch something or someone, well that's more valid than having no reason at all.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2022, 07:02:29 pm
content: Quote from: ataradov on July 06, 2022, 05:07:06 pmIMHO the art is to dig down to what is (f)actually there without the BS and magic woo-woo. Statistically speaking we can't be the only planet with intelligent life on it that is able to send radio signals. In turn it means that projects like SETI could provide us with clues whether or not we are not 'alone'. Ofcourse additional research will need to be done to verify the findings. I think this is worth spending some money on; maybe we can learn something and there can be technology spun off that is usefull for other purposes which would not have been developed otherwise.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2022, 07:12:21 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on July 06, 2022, 07:02:29 pmNo, absolutely not. But even we are not sending significant amounts into the outer space. As soon as we have developed the radio to any appreciable degree, we came up with very efficient technology, directional antennas and stuff like that. Chances are that any other developed civilizations did the same. So, you have a very limited time from the invention of the radio and emitting megawatts to the current state.Monitoring limited physical direction in a limited frequency range for a limited time is basically pointless. Plus we have been doing it for a while and found absolutely nothing so far. There is time to re-evaluate the approach.As I said, I'm fine with doing that for a few years, but if nothing comes up in that time frame, then it may be better to redirect the resources some place else.

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2022, 07:43:02 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on July 06, 2022, 07:02:29 pmDid you read my post replying about UFO'shttps://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/life-advice-dont-dismiss-or-lose-respect-for-people/msg4282735/#msg4282735For as far as I know we, as a species have been listening for outer space signals for a long time and for as far as I know, have not yet encountered anything remotely intelligent. Even though the likely hood of us not being alone in this fast universe is big, the nearest, what we think of as a, habitable planet is 4.37 light year away. If there was intelligent life on it the signals they might send take 4.37 years to reach us, at least if they are strong enough to travel the distance. So I think it is safe to say there is no intelligent life capable of sending signals that we can receive on that planet.Extending this into the further distance a signal could be so old that even if it reaches us the sending species does not even exist anymore.Sure all this is based on our perception of physics and who knows if there is intelligence out there capable of bending space to jump within a short period of time over a fast distance and visit us and then send signals from their space ships, but would we then receive these signals when they are based on a completely unknown principle?Another thing to consider is, do we really want "intelligent" life to visit us, if they are anything like us? Lets face it the human race does not have a great track record of being peaceful. And there are people on this planet thinking about going out in space the colonize other planets due to the fact that this one might become unlivable. On earth this has been reason enough to start wars over, so why would it be different when we go out to obtain another planet. And why would it be different for other "intelligent" life. But it could be of coarse.And it is not just humans on this planet. Just take a good look at nature. It is cruel. And that is evolution.

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2022, 07:47:40 pm
content: Quote from: Zero999 on July 06, 2022, 05:12:56 pmI was hinting at Boris Johnson due to Trump being mentioned.But the list you provided is global not just UK problems. And it is worry some for sure.

author: fourfathom
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2022, 08:35:02 pm
content: Quote from: ataradov on July 06, 2022, 07:12:21 pmAll serious SETI researchers I have spent serious time with (Frank Drake, Jill Tartar, and many others) agree with you: We aren't going to be hearing ETI broadcast or comms radio signals, since even if they were strong enough to reach Earth they will be indistinguisable from noise. And they most probably aren't strong enough. Instead, we are searching for deliberate beacons.And SETI researchers are constantly reevaluating search techniques and philosophy. Trust me, these are serious and incredibly intelligent people. Neither you or I are likely to come up with something they haven't already considered.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2022, 08:55:23 pm
content: Quote from: pcprogrammer on July 06, 2022, 07:47:40 pmSome of it is global, but there's a lot our government could do to make things better for us.

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2022, 09:12:37 pm
content: Quote from: Zero999 on July 06, 2022, 08:03:21 amYou can fuck straight outta here with that trans panic bullshit.Tim

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2022, 09:43:50 pm
content: Quote from: T3sl4co1l on July 06, 2022, 09:12:37 pmWay to go to prove Dave's point. Let's all cancel and cast away someone that is talking about what someone else dislikes.BTW, Zero999's is not trans panic but a fact (here,here,hereand many others).

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2022, 09:46:36 pm
content: Quote from: rsjsouza on July 06, 2022, 09:43:50 pmWho gives a fuck if someone is telling the truth? Let's cancel them because the truth hurts our feelings.I have no problem with those who genuinely have gender dysphoria and feel they have to live as the opposite sex. I watch Franlab and that's good. The problem of men pretending to be women in order to rape them is real and the authorities need to do something about it.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2022, 09:48:46 pm
content: Yep. Regarding “trans panic”, a good friend of mine is trans (post op) and she’s worried about it as well. Both from the perspective of being lumped in the same bucket as that lot and being the target of the abuse. It’s definitely a problem.Some humans are shitty regardless of their software or hardware configuration. However I think we should just lump shitty people in the same bucket and ignore all the other bits.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2022, 09:58:49 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on July 06, 2022, 09:48:46 pmAnd this is the problem with cancel culture. You might dislike what someone says, but why not actually look into it before accusing them of trans panic or whatever? It's possible they're just pain wrong, or perhaps they're right, or could still be wrong, yet have based their opinions on faulty evidence?The last two years has taught me a lot about conspiracy theories and to be more open minded. For example the lab leak was dismissed as a conspiracy, yet now it's been investigated as a legitimate possibility. There are few things I now consider to be true nutty conspiracy theories. Heck there are some things which are even endorsed by the mainstream I consider to be bullshit, gender ideology being one of them.

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2022, 12:46:33 am
content: QuoteSee, it's not that those people are doing that. It's the way you are describing it.I will show you the correct way to describe it:Rapists are criminals.Doesn't matter if they're trans or cis, straight or gay. Anyone can be a criminal. Not all trans people are criminals.No, that wasn't precisely said. It's implied. It's implied by repeating the lie so often it gets lodged into your mind as a given truth.And if you were really concerned about people being raped in prison, surely you would be screaming from the hills aboutthisandthisandthis?And you can fuck right outta here with this shit,Quote from: rsjsouza on July 06, 2022, 09:43:50 pmI have enough respect for people here, to call attention to something, and allow them to correct the wrong.You're the only one jumping to "cancel culture".Tim

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2022, 01:35:13 am
content: Quote from: ataradov on July 06, 2022, 05:44:49 amI'm actually more interested in the phenomena on the basic research level. Just like say LHC at Cern, or the International Space Station, there is research I think we should do to just find out things, regardless of whether they lead to useful science. I'm not really interested in the results; I'm really interested in the research. As in, I'd love to be the systems integrator and developer for the camera devices, and work with people who have all sorts of kooky ideas about what the phenomena itself might be. I'm sure the side effects of the research would be more beneficial than the research target itself, as that tends to be the case with this kind of basic research.Nevertheless, to circle back to the topic at hand, even though we disagree (rather often), and I might dismiss your opinion regarding some particular subject, I will not dismiss your other opinions nor lose respect for you (although it is difficult to exactly define what that respect means; in this context, it just means I will read your posts with positive interest, and do look forward to more). I do not find disagreement necessarily a negative thing at all. (And when the reasons for those opinions are discussed also, I find it a clearly positive thing.)However, I would bet a beverage of your choice that at minimum one member, and likely more than one, reading this thread have "downgraded" their opinion of my output simply because of the topics I brought up here. Which is kind of my point –– and perhaps also Dave's, I guess. You can disagree, and even consider some opinions completely silly and bonkers, and still positively and mutually beneficially interact with the person. Exclusion is not necessary, and it is not nearly as often useful as people seem to think. It gets ugly and damaging when tribalism aspects creep in.What one watches at Youtube is a bit more complex, though, because the interaction is often one-way. For myself, there are many completely secondary details that affect me way, way more than the opinions of the presenter. Like the fact that I don't like watching a talking head at all.

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2022, 01:50:34 am
content: Quote from: pcprogrammer on July 06, 2022, 05:44:04 amNo, there are actually quite a few possible natural candidates, like ball lightning (some kind of self-contained plasma phenomena).A particularly interesting one would be to catalog all the visual effects caused by insects. These often fly relatively close to the camera, quite fast, and the visual signature can be difficult to classify. (In some cases, they can even have relatively sharp edges, making it difficult to show that it is a small object close to the camera and not a large object far away. There is even a "rod" community, believing that such images are not caused by insects, but by "impossibly fast" extraterrestrial exploration devices or something...)Since multiple cameras with overlapping fields of view (fisheye lenses with full sky coverage) can triangulate all objects except those that are too close (to a single camera), it would be rather easy to distinguish these cases, by the simple fact that they are too close to be triangulated. You cannot do that with a single camera, and it can be difficult with two cameras (depending on the location and orientation of the insect), but with three (cameras in a triangle), it becomes much simpler.Similarly, combining multiple full-sky visual and infrared images could be very useful for meteor and meteoroid tracking. It might even be useful for atmospheric research (if simultaneous local temperature, wind speed, etc. information is available).It does annoy me a bit that people immediately jump to "so you're looking for aliens". No, it's much more than that; that's just a side effect, and more likely would result inexcludingextraterrestrial craft than anything else. But really, it is just basic research about our environment.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2022, 01:53:27 am
content: Quote from: Nominal Animal on July 07, 2022, 01:35:13 amMe too. I don't dismiss the idea entirely. But I can't imagine actual methodology. We have cameras, there is no need to develop them. That's actually the whole issue. As our cameras get better, the fewer UFOs we observe. Same with Yeti/Bigfoot. Once cameras became very good and virtually everyone has one, sightings dropped quite a bit.So, instead of low level details, I'd like to see a high level plan and study actual feasibility.For example, since it seems like a lot of UFO footage comes from military/airforce, it would be nice if they replaced their 80s quality cameras with something from the last decade. But that's not going to happen. Or rather it is likely it has happened, but we won't see any of that footage for decades. So, equipping commercial aircraft may be the next best thing, but airlines won't do that, too much of a hassle.Otherwise, what else do you do? Cover the whole earth with 8K trail cameras?

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2022, 02:27:09 am
content: Quote from: T3sl4co1l on July 07, 2022, 12:46:33 amNice move; putting words on my mouthdespite I have a lot of respect for your technical contributions, I am not playing your rhetorical game.BTW, I am not going anywhere with this s***, so live with that.

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2022, 03:02:46 am
content: Quote from: ataradov on July 07, 2022, 01:53:27 amNot exactly. Yes, obvious misidentifications dropped (but certain ones, like reflections increased), but there still are recurring interesting phenomena out there. For an example, seeHessdalenin Norway.Quote from: ataradov on July 07, 2022, 01:53:27 amI'm not a suitable person to lead such research, but I'd start with an actual initial feasilibity study as an experiment, somewhere like Hessdalen (except in my case, somewhere in Finland; there are a few candidate sites), with a cluster of networked full-sky fisheye cameras. Here in the North, the best time for observations is during the winter, which does pose quite a few limitations for the actual devices, pushing up the price of the devices (and therefore the risk of vandalism and theft, too).(Remember, this is an example of research that many physicists et al. would be interested in doing, but won't touch even with a long pole, because they know it would ruin their reputation; not something I suggestedIwould like to submit a research proposal for.)

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 07, 2022, 03:54:56 am
content: Quote from: Zero999 on July 06, 2022, 08:03:21 amYou're talking about two mutually exclusive subjects here. Whether or not you believe in the complexities of gender identity or not is neither here nor there. Rape is rape, regardless of the gender of the victim or the accused.

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2022, 04:57:49 am
content: Quote from: Nominal Animal on July 07, 2022, 01:50:34 amThanks for this insight. It shows how narrow my look on the topic UFO's is. Guess focus is also controlled by mediaThe insect option is a problem where unmanned camera's are used, but I guess not when someone is filming an actual phenomena that he or she can perceive as being distant with their own eyes. (I mean a real thing not some made up attention seeking BS)The ball lightning I know exists but have never seen it in real life. Read about it entering via a window and roaming through the room a long time ago. Can't remember if it did damage. (Before internet) Interesting phenomena as is lightning itself.Quote from: Nominal Animal on July 07, 2022, 03:02:46 amUnfortunately that is the world we live in know. Theft to some extend can be understood as a way of life support, but vandalism is just crazy.

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2022, 05:04:12 am
content: Quote from: Nominal Animal on July 07, 2022, 01:35:13 amFor me it is voices and overly expressive "fake" behavior, but that most likely has to do with the fact that I'm introvert.

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2022, 05:38:27 am
content: Quote from: pcprogrammer on July 07, 2022, 04:57:49 amYep; lots of anecdotal evidence, but darned hard to replicate (except in microwave environments).Fortunately, in the last two decades, it has become a serious research subject. Before that, it too had the stigma of "no sensible physicist would touchthatsubject". As far as I know, in 2014, some Chinese researchers happened to catchthe spectrum of oneduring ordinary lightning research. Thearticle on itwas published in Physical Review Letters, one of the most prestigious physics journals.Advances in ball lightning researchby Schmatov and Stephan, 2019, would be an interesting read on the subject, if one had access.Quote from: Nominal Animal on July 07, 2022, 03:02:46 amNo, it's just kids roaming around and poking stuff; they don't know any better.Such devices are best placed in hard to reach places – and high up anyway, to maximize the solid angle of visible sky. And that in turn requires official contacts and wide official support. The money isn't that big of an issue, Linux SBCs and good camera modules don't cost that much,it's the general supportfor such projects. Shielded Ethernet landlines to a central box also providing PoE (enough to use small fans and heaters to keep snow and ice off the fisheye lenses too) and an upstream connection.All you need is a national news deciding the project is laughable (without zero understanding of the various benefits), and it'd be dead due to politics and face-saving.I mean, look at the Hessdalen EMBLA 2000 mission two decades ago. It's leading research institutions wereØstfold University College(hiof.no, which does not even have a Faculty of Science, only a Faculty of Computer Science and Faculty of Engineering; but otherwise a reputable university: ranked 5th in Norway and 900th in the world) andItalianCNdR. But really, Project Hessdalen is just a municipality-supported volunteer andstudentproject.

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2022, 06:27:18 am
content: Quote from: Nominal Animal on July 07, 2022, 05:38:27 amAlready mentioned in this thread I think, the bad behavior of youth, but it would not be bad if more attention was payed to teaching these youngsters some responsibility and value.For a large part I blame this on the parents and looking at the difference between how it is in the Netherlands compared to here in rural France I think I'm right. Here kids tend to be more behaved as parent are far more corrective of bad behavior. Also in school it is more strict. The children here are still capable of entertaining themselves without drawing to much attention or having to demolish things.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2022, 07:24:04 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on July 07, 2022, 03:54:56 amNo, because rape as stated by UK law, can only be committed by a man. Women can commit other serious sexual assaults, but not rape. They don't have the equipment to do so.Quote from: T3sl4co1l on July 07, 2022, 12:46:33 amNo one said all trans people are criminals. That was your interpretation. What I said was, it's fine believing in dangerous gender ideology, until it comes to seriously harm you, or a loved one.You're missing the point: the policy of simply believing someone when they declare they're a women and putting them into a female hospital ward/prison stems from gender theory and has to stop. It's a misguided and dangerous policy. The same is true for allowing males to compete in women's sports. People should be treated for those purposes based on their biological sex i.e. a DNA test, if there's any ambiguity.It's true those with gender dysphoria are more vulnerable and are at increased risk of rape when placed in male prison, but the same can be said about other vulnerable people with mental health disorders such as autism. The solution is to treat people on a case by case basis and always err on the side of caution, when consideration is made to putting them with more vulnerable people.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2022, 07:43:43 am
content: Quote from: Zero999 on July 07, 2022, 07:24:04 amYes, I hear about this antiquated law recently.Reminds me to some laws in parts of USA where the law states that they have to keep hay in taxis, in case the horse pulling it would become hungry.Quote from: bd139 on July 06, 2022, 09:48:46 pmI'm not familiar with the term. Could you define it and what makes one “trans panic”?

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2022, 07:46:30 am
content: Worth reading the following to see how shitty humans can be:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gay_panic_defense

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2022, 08:14:15 am
content: Quote from: tszaboo on July 07, 2022, 07:43:43 amWhy do you think the law should be changed?Quote from: bd139 on July 07, 2022, 07:46:30 amThanks. I didn't know about that. I took it as a woke slur. I suppose it was when used in that context.I'm sure you've heard of gender dysphoria, being listed as the main reason for men transitioning. Ever heard of autogynephilia?https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blanchard%27s_transsexualism_typology#AutogynephiliaFor those who don't have the time to read the entire article, it's basically those who want to become the object of their sexual desire i.e. a woman.A big problem is many people conflate transgenderism with homosexuality, but they are not the same. To be homosexual is to simply be attracted to someone of the same sex. Transgenderism is being in denial of one's own reality. I have no problem with either, but it's important to note the difference.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2022, 08:49:08 am
content: Quote from: bd139 on July 07, 2022, 07:46:30 amThanks for the clarification.I've seen this study recently, which seems to bring up some data about the issue to be very deeply embedded into people.https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/19419899.2017.1328459?cookieSet=1I would like to point out the very high confidence factor in the study.I am one of those people who accept the fact that we are a product of evolution, and evolution has resulted some programming that is against the current leftist push. You cannot really teach a fish to fly by shaming it publicly, or constantly showing it pictures of birds now, can you?

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2022, 09:04:24 am
content: Quote from: tszaboo on July 07, 2022, 08:49:08 amThat doesn't surprise me. Disgust is hardwired. Witnessing a sexual encounter which doesn't match with one's own preferences is going to invoke disgust. It's perfectly normal and natural. No amount of brainwashing is going to change it.The practice of putting children through conversion therapy has recently been banned in the UK, because there's no evidence to support it's possible to change someone's sexual preferences, which are probably hardwired. The study you've given there just confirms this i.e. it's not possible to make heterosexual men homosexual, or even not turned off by witnessing two men kissing.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2022, 09:34:59 am
content: I see lots of polarising left vs right in this thread, absolute assignment of attributes and lots of poor assumptions about consistency of people's beliefs based on political spectral alignment. On top of that lots of poorly derived assumptions about other people's views on things.I prefer to take the subgenius position because there's bananas self-serving dickheads on the left, on the right and in the middleRegarding sexual preferences, you are what you are but may not be what you were and the only worry is if you regret what you have become. What you do as a person is entirely separate be that good or bad.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2022, 09:51:32 am
content: Quote from: bd139 on July 07, 2022, 09:34:59 amHonestly, I dont know how did it happen, that all the political views have been reduced to a 1D line.It baffles me that we made necessary to make this choice in most democracies on a single line, and completely binary in the USA? There is only an extreme leftist and a ultranationalist party in the USA now? What if someone is eg pro guns, gay rights and not a climate change or science denialist? (which may or may not be my view) If I would need to vote there, I would seriously just vote with my feet. Same goes to the UK now.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2022, 09:53:40 am
content: Polarising people is cheap and easy. All it becomes is an exercise in retaining market share which is easily measured. It’s attention metrics again as per my original comment in this thread.Note I was previously responsible for some of this shit as I worked for one of the companies who were manipulating it. Until I worked out what was going on and quit on the spot. Our current chancellor was my boss to give you an idea how tied together this all is.Since this I decided I will have no political alignment preferring only independent considerations rather than a polarising ideology.

author: iMo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2022, 09:59:21 am
content: @bd139: That "SubGenius" depiction is basically a depiction of all good salesmen.. And you have to be a good salesperson, in order to run your business successfully.. Btw., is Dave running a successful business here? Yes, I think he does..

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2022, 10:03:40 am
content: Exactly that

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2022, 10:05:23 am
content: Quote from: bd139 on July 07, 2022, 09:34:59 amI don't get the left vs right thing. Some of the things on that poster are inconsistent. "Don't kill anything" is on the left, many in that camp are pro-choice when it comes to abortion, right up to 9 months and many on the right want to abolish it. "Don't knuckle to anyone!" is also the sentiment given off by some left wing groups such as BLM.I suppose I admit, I'm right wing in many respects, but don't agree with all of it. I certainly support women's rights, public healthcare and education, which are left wing positions. I'm all for gay rights too. The trans thing is more complicated and I support their rights, where they don't conflict with those of women.QuoteAll the more reason to worry about chopping bits off and medications with lasting effects.Quote from: tszaboo on July 07, 2022, 09:51:32 amThat's always been a problem. It's easier to have two parties than many.

author: iMo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2022, 10:40:16 am
content: All those "movements" and "initiatives" we encounter last 30 years and which you have mentioned above are results of an increased push for new markets, more sales, more revenues, better profits (lower costs)..Think about for a while - the more diversified markets, more diversified audiences/customers, more diversified life styles, more diversified political views, more diversified employees, more genders, more diversified managements, more diversified needs and products, the more space for achieving the goals in all areas above.... Be a good salesperson..

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2022, 10:56:43 am
content: Quote from: imo on July 07, 2022, 10:40:16 amI don't see the more diversified political views. Those which support big business are the ones which are accepted over others. Take immigration for example. It results in increased population, more demand for goods and services, higher property prices and cheap labour. These are things large companies like. Anyone who expresses concerns over immigration gets branded a Nazi by the mainstream media.

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2022, 11:08:55 am
content: I'm going to seek a border here and also respond to a couple of posts back.You are talking about "not liking to be the gender you are born with" and "being attracted to the same sex" and stating it is nature, which I agree on. Yes you are born with it, is what I believe, but is this not also true for pedophiles and psychopaths.So should we let them have their way too?Don't get me wrong, just playing the advocate of the devil here

author: iMo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2022, 11:09:13 am
content: Quote from: Zero999 on July 07, 2022, 10:56:43 amExactly, but mind the companies (aka big business) are the moderators/operators of the markets and mainstream media, not you as a single person.. So somebody be the only Nazi does not influence the markets, moreover the finger pointing at him in the media increases the media revenues in turn..

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2022, 11:31:39 am
content: Quote from: Zero999 on July 07, 2022, 10:05:23 amIt is hard for the common person to follow all the nuances and ambiguities of society - daily concerns of much greater importance (food, education, etc.) take precedence, thus it becomes much easier to put people in buckets for control. Not only that, but the left vs right brings a lot of money - the guy in the middle can be the depicted capitalist or the government (with its politicians and actors) that will use their power (both political and monetary) to maintain the status among the crowd. Many of those cultural discussions that happen nowadays in the US (and sadly trickle down to the rest of the world) arepanis et circensisfor much more lucrative ventures such as the constant flood of money and equipment to Ukraine, for example (which was taken off the eyes of the US public by Will Smith's slap at the Oscars).Quote from: Zero999 on July 07, 2022, 10:05:23 amI am of a similar vein and I personally don't care for the gender proclivities of parts of the population - they can coexist in society as well. What it does not sit well is the extremism and the current shaming tactic to gain acceptance, especially if it affects the less powerful than you.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2022, 11:52:07 am
content: Quote from: rsjsouza on July 07, 2022, 11:31:39 amI see ideologies such as gender identity and critical race theory as American cultural imperialism. It's true they have their roots in Europe, but they've morphed into something completely different.Quote from: pcprogrammer on July 07, 2022, 11:08:55 amGender dysphoria is poorly understood, so I don't know if I agree with that part. It's possible it's a result of trauma, just as much as nature. All I know is there many people who've gone through transition and regretted it. The fact it's not fully understood, means we should take a more conservative approach when it comes to dealing with it and no I'm not talking about politics here: the first rule of the Hippocratic oath is do no harm.QuoteUnfortunately there's a group of people who want to destigmatise paedophilia. There are academics who want to use the term MAP (Minor Attracted Persons) because they feel the word paedophile carries negative connotations. Some of them such as PIE (Paedophiles' Information Exchange) have infiltrated some LGBT rights groups. It is a big problem.Some social stigmas and taboos exist for a reason and should be preserved because eliminating them has negative consequences for society as a whole. There are valid reasons when incest, paedophilia, rape and murder are universally considered to be bad. Let's keep it that way.

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2022, 12:15:13 pm
content: Quote from: Zero999 on July 07, 2022, 11:52:07 amGuess you are right on that, but I think it is very difficult for medical professionals to see through if it is really needed to perform the surgery or not, but not doing it can also be harmful. Checking DNA like mentioned before to see what gender someone is might not bring the correct result either. When it is in your head, born with or grown due to trauma, can take you down if not dealt with properly. One can then ask what is "properly" here. Very difficult stuff all together.I like to throw in a saying I like. "If the human brain was so simple that we could understand it, we would be so simple that we couldn't"The human psychology is not easy to understand and there are many points of view, be it Freudian, Jungian or whatever streams there are.Nice to have a discussion about it though.Quote from: Zero999 on July 07, 2022, 11:52:07 amCertainly agree with you on that, and society should do it's best to keep these bad things in check. Unfortunately it goes wrong from time to time when someone basically known to be bad is released on society and does what he did again.

author: Shock
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2022, 12:26:22 pm
content: Thread needs a cat drinking a beer and eating prawns.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2022, 01:00:31 pm
content: Quote from: pcprogrammer on July 07, 2022, 12:15:13 pmTo clarify, for the purposes of prison, hospital wards, medical treatment and sport, it's much fairer to all involved to simply treat the person in accordance with their biological sex in most cases. This might be seen as unfair to some individuals, but it's certainly the lesser evil. If someone is at high risk of being assaulted in prison because they believe their the opposite sex, to their biological one, then they should be treated in the same manner as any other person in prison with condition which makes them especially vulnerable. It really is that simple. If we go down the existing path women's prisons will fill up with dangerous males who identify as female. There are those who say not all trans are rapists, which is indeed true, but I'm talking about criminals here who will lie about who they are if it benefits them. An individual's biological sex is the first thing which needs to be considered, as far as medicine is concerned. Every cell in your body is either male, or female, based on your sex. Certain diseases are more common in sex, than the others. How a person feels about their gender and if they've had any treatment such as surgery, hormones, or whether they would benefit from it, should be considerations, when they're receiving treatment for another condition.This is different to other instances such as at work and socialising. I'm perfectly fine with calling Fran she, or her, because that's how she wishes to be addressed. I know full well she's really male, but if it makes her feel more comfortable, that's fine by me. I certainly wouldn't refuse to employ someone because they're trans. That would be mad, if they're right person for the job.

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2022, 01:33:39 pm
content: I agree with you that in places where there is a risk of vulnerable people being harmed due to someone abusing the system it is indeed best to keep things separate based on actual gender, but then also take measure to protect the male who feels female from being hurt when put in a "true" male institution.About hospital wards, over here and in the Netherlands I don't think separation exists anymore. You are asked if you don't mind and get either a private room or a room with only the same gender if you do mind and when it is possible. My wife has been a nurse for many years, so she said that this is indeed the case in the Netherlands. For here in France it is based on stories of people I know who have been in hospital over here.Quote from: Zero999 on July 07, 2022, 01:00:31 pmYes you are right about that when someone is right for the job you are mad to not employ that person what ever there gender, race or persuasion is. On the other hand when you have to employ someone not suited because it is politically correct then it absolute bollocks. And that is happening a lot nowadays, being it gender or race. And right for the job can include if someone fits in the team, which is also a two way street.

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2022, 09:59:17 pm
content: Quote from: tszaboo on July 07, 2022, 09:51:32 amIf by "extreme leftist" you mean "center-right" (in the grand scheme of things). Which I guess goes to show you how effective the ultranationalists have been at setting narratives?There are plenty on the actual-left, but they have little power, plus there are too many directions to take that in (everything from authoritarian tankies and wokescolds, to ordinary reasonable socialists, to radical anarchists of still other various flavors), so they're easily disregarded by the mainstream. The mainstream, for the most part, isn't politically active; ignorance is the rule, not the exception (non-voters were still the dominant "party" even in the 2020 election, I think?). Poor education, and ever-more-centralized media, are massive problems.Tim

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2022, 11:03:06 pm
content: Quote from: T3sl4co1l on July 07, 2022, 09:59:17 pmIMHO one of the primary problems in the US (and also the UK) is a political system that has been designed from the ground up to have a very limited number of parties. It is almost like a communist country where the power is concentrated in very few people.

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2022, 04:06:32 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on July 07, 2022, 11:03:06 pmAs if the political system in the Netherlands is so greatWay to many parties making choice a lot harder, and governing near impossible. "Polderen" they call it, but it stands in the way of true change. They always have to seek middle ground to get things approved, or compromise on things they don't really want to get their own visions partially pushed through.I gave up on politics long ago, and take a good look at post WWII history and global evolution. Despite periods of left, middle (if the system had one) or right on the controls, most (western) societies are on the same track. Modern evolution, for me, seems far more ruled by money then politics.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2022, 06:37:53 am
content: Quote from: T3sl4co1l on July 07, 2022, 09:59:17 pmThe two political parties in the US are using Europe's extreme left and rights rhetoric. Both the democrat and the republican party is an extremist party. They just realized that if they don't wear swastikas' or wave a red flag, then they can get away with everything.Just look at it. "Build a wall to keep out those dirty foreigners" or "Let's ban free speech, because people might say something that might upset someone from the alphabet community" is not something that any reasonable politician would do.It's like really really bad. And scary, because this gets exported to us by Hollywood and the internet.And I'm sure, whichever party you are with, you feel like you are the reasonable ones, because those extreme views are only done by a few people, that you don't identify with.

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2022, 08:44:21 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on July 07, 2022, 11:03:06 pmAuthoritarian* country. Doesn't matter if it's left or right. Left: "we die for glory of our state, comrade". Right: "we die for glory of our heritage, seig heil". Economic policies differ, but the power structure is the same: extreme inequality with outsized wealth/power concentrated in the party members and their cronies.One can imagine a communism that "works", more along a lib-left direction; but certainly won't work with people from western cultures. (There are, in fact, a few remaining small / island / reclusive communities/nations/tribes that are still, actually, somewhere in the left-lib direction.)So, one of the few ways one could even begin to try and approach such a thing (communism), would be revolution, but revolution only ever pushes things in the auth direction, it's self defeating. Cultural change is required, so state media control is required, among other...much less palatable options (reeducation camps, genocide..). Which is basically why Leninist/Maoist/etc. attempts turned out the way they did.Conversely, fascism adopts to existing cultural values, but by necessity, turns them up to 11. So you get hyper-masculine, theocratic sorts of propaganda, and shows of violence (including taking political prisoners, or worse) to keep the more passive people in check.The irony is, authoritarians H A T E each other; we had an entire "cold war" over it. Among other things. Red scare; evil capitalism; it's just propaganda, excuses to -- in part -- buoy their respective military-industrial complexes, perpetuating the us-vs-them external threat justifying their authority.But yeah, that basically explains why authoritarians are terrible. Unfortunately, traditional western liberal values aren't very good at resisting them; a century or so of "red scare" propaganda has pretty well inoculated against that in the US, but that still leaves plenty of room for fascists to maneuver... which is how we are where we are now...Quote from: tszaboo on July 08, 2022, 06:37:53 amNot sure what you're referring to; no one's proposing bills to remove free speech that I can think of. I'm sure there's something that's been picked up by international media but which conveniently left off the context that wokescolds aren't serious or viable candidates. I assume you're not talking about hate speech; hate speech simply isn't free speech. The "extreme left wing" of the dem party is proposing such radical things as  abortion rights, unions, and universal health care (e.g. Bernie Sanders).A state did sign a bill concerning LGBT themes in the classroom, but that was prohibiting it, because Florida has an extreme-right governor.Tim

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2022, 10:47:48 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on July 05, 2022, 03:50:26 amnow thats the most sensible thing i read for so loong time... keep telling yourself and most of the western folks out here that... LIFE is just tip of an iceberg... i'm here for electronics and for the "good" nothing less... anyway... looking for that linux contributor hired by bill gates stuffs, i want to make some rants over there but then stumbled in here... where is that thread now?

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2022, 10:58:58 am
content: You mean this one:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/programming/lennard-pottering-the-genius-proggramer-behind-systemd-is-now-at-microsoft/?topicseen

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2022, 11:51:19 am
content: I always used to consider myself to be on the centre-left, but now I'm probably more centre-right. I honestly don't know if it's because my views have shifted, or it's just the mainstream media have become progressively more left-wing. I like to think I reevaluate my position on things based on new information, so either is possible.I honestly don't see the extremes in the UK's two parties. They might say different things, but they both do the same. The mainstream media run the country, not the politicians, who just bow to what they say, in a bid to be popular. The problem is, many people do not agree with the propaganda pumped out by the mainstream media. It doesn't reflect real life.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2022, 12:25:43 pm
content: I don't know in the UK, but in the US the left moved so far to radicalization that several people feel moving to the right while being at the same place as before. That leads to organizations and people being shamed and name called by the regressive left (they typical *isms and *ists) for their positions about a subject that in a very recent past were simply common sense. Put in the mix the media thirst for clicks, incensed headlines and the cheap use of catchy phrases to describe complex problems and you get the perfect sensation the ground shifted tectonically without one really knowing what the heck just happened with society.(Edit) BTW, as I mentioned before, both parties put on a good show of antsgonism but behind the scenes work for the same common goal: keep themselves and their friends in power.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 11, 2022, 05:38:54 am
content: Quote from: T3sl4co1l on July 07, 2022, 09:59:17 pmIt's not just "poor education", it's eduction now rooted in activism based on identity politics. The universities have almost been destroyed by it. And it has spilled over into the social media institutions which are now the defacto town square. So we are now all forced to live under a Sword of Damocles, say they wrong thing, or simply ask the wrong questions on Youtube, Twitter, Facebook, etc and you are history.And then the governments weaponise and extand that identity politics into thought/opinion politics and they utilise the procedures put in the place by the social media companies to combat "hate speech" to then clamp down on "Misinformation".And if you don't think you'll ever be impacted by it, because you are a "nice person" on the "correct side" of the politics, just wait. It'll come for you too eventually.Even associating with the wrong people will get you cancelled. I wish I could tell you a personal story here, but I won't, to protect the other party. Let's just say that even in our small industry, if you associate with with someone some SJW nutjob deems to be the "wrong person", then they will attempt to cancel you too.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2022, 07:26:16 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on July 11, 2022, 05:38:54 amIt infiltrated the education system around 10 years ago. The students then found themselves jobs in the civil service, journalism and human resources departments of private companies and charitable organisations and now we're seeing it come to fruition.

author: KaneTW
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2022, 11:46:37 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on July 11, 2022, 05:38:54 amI was excluded from a community about 2 years ago for what basically amounts to unpopular opinions.People from that community have stalked me and tried to get me banned from other communities, and harassed some friends to the point where they only talk to me in private messages.It's completely unhinged.E:Quote from: Zero999 on July 11, 2022, 07:26:16 amYeah, that's roughly where I started seeing it happen. In Germany there was a push to rename "Studentenwerk" to "Studierendenwerk" about... 5-7 years ago? And that was definitely a sign things are going tits up.For reference, "Studenten" is plural of "Student," which is technically male but is the accepted ambigiously gendered plural for gendered words."Studierende" is some passive voice construction ("person that studies") and "Studierenden" is the plural thereof.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 11, 2022, 11:59:48 am
content: Quote from: KaneTW on July 11, 2022, 11:46:37 amAnd countless people, organisations, and even governments will defend this in the name of *insert current thing here*Indeed, people at all levels of society and influence are afraid of being attacked themselves unless they publicly support this kind of thing, and so the cycle goes.Many companies were also convinced it was financially postive to public promote this kind of agenda, but this year though I have seen huge signs of all this house of cards cracking. Even large woke companies like Netflix are backpeddling for example. There is hope.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2022, 12:28:35 pm
content: Quote from: KaneTW on July 11, 2022, 11:46:37 amYou should tell yourself good riddance. Do you really want to be part of a community like that?I recently had to endure diversity training at work, when I did air some of my opinions, knowing full well I might have to look for a new job. I warned them about putting the rights of one group above another and gave real world examples of where this had gone badly wrong: women being raped in hospital and prison and our police force covering up Muslim child grooming gangs abusing white working class girls, through fear of being accused of racism. Fortunately they seemed to listen,but I knew I was taking a risk. I did choose my words very carefully and picked my battles.Quote from: EEVblog on July 11, 2022, 11:59:48 amThe worst one is the pride bollocks. Numerous companies put rainbows on their logos and websites, but only in countries where alphabet people aren't discriminated against. Their logos remain unchanged in Arabic countries. I can't stand it. It used to serve a purpose, back when it was illegal but now it just puts across negative stereotypes.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 11, 2022, 01:13:39 pm
content: Quote from: Zero999 on July 11, 2022, 12:28:35 pmLuckily it's been 11 years since I last worked in big company, so I missed all that.It would have been interesting to have seen what would happen when I spoke up and refused to do the training thoughAnd if they dare asked for my feedback they would have got the full James Demore engineering report treatment.

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2022, 01:26:17 pm
content: Quote from: Zero999 on July 11, 2022, 12:28:35 pmTo me the problem lies in categorizing people into boxes. When the human race comes to the understanding that we are all just people and as such all different individuals and accept that these differences do not matter, there will be hope.Your referral toalphabet peopleputs them in a box and from what I read what you write unintentionally.And I'm not saying that we should not "discriminate" against the excesses in the differences, like putting criminals in jail, because there still is a need for rules and morals. Humankind just needs to stretch the morals where it comes to the sexually and gender or what have you different within the limits of some good sense. But that requires thinking, and I feel society is lacking that more and more. Not due to diminishing intelligence, but due to being indifferent. (Though I also have the feeling people are getting dumber)Sure it is not easy and I confess to also be more alert when I see a dark skinned guy with a hoodie to name just a stereo type.

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2022, 03:43:01 pm
content: Quote from: pcprogrammer on July 11, 2022, 01:26:17 pmThat leads to equal treatment, though; not to special treatment to "underprivileged groups", which is what this is all about.Quote from: pcprogrammer on July 11, 2022, 01:26:17 pmHumankind needs a lot of stuff, that's true; but morals cannot be dictated. Just like language, they evolve dynamically.Really, it is more about forced speech and "reverse" discrimination; about requiring individuals to treat other individualsdifferentlydepending on their group membership.(Here goes my speech for those who are afraid they don't "fit" because they are "different".)In here and in real life, I'm very happy to interact withyou(whoever you are reading this post), and will not "judge" you in any way except how you interact with myself and others: I will treat you like you treat me, because that is natural to humans, and tends to yield the best results. And while I do not have any proof or actual evidence, I do claim that here on EEVblog, and in general in any technical, engineering, or science field where people are interested and motivated, everyone, regardless of their sexual or bodily characteristics, is welcome.As such, I do claim that science and engineering fields in general are welcoming toanyone, regardless of their sexual or bodily characteristics.I certainly have happily worked with all kinds of different people, and their exact "differentness" was just the spice on top, not something that defined them in any way.Yeah, idiots do exist and occur everywhere, and I too have been discriminated against pretty damn badly ("You get no budget just because you're my son's age and he's completely useless –– even though you have already shown your reliability and capabilities in practice. Instead, you will need to ask me written permission for every purchase. Since you do maintain a couple of computer classrooms and some servers with lots of consumables, try to ask them at most once every two weeks, because I don't want to be reviewing such inconsequential paperwork all the time. No, you cannot have any stock replacements either; that would be wasteful.").The world is imperfect, but don't let it be defined by the assholes.Thing is, if someone here were to describe themselves as say a hermaphrodite, that too will be treated more like a technical thing than a personal thing. In other words, they might get technical questions regarding actual biological plumbing, and not social questions like "how do you feel aboutX", "what is your preference regardingY". But that is because people who are drawn to science and engineering tend to be more thing-oriented than people-oriented; something that is well known in psychology, and is observed in other primates as well. (In experiments, some young monkeys prefer toy cars, and others prefer dolls; very few play with both kinds of toys equally.) Do not mistake that for coldness or rejection; this is just how many engineers and scientists are, really think and even emote. It is their way of expressing interest and support. As humans, we do not get to tell others how they need/must/should express their interest and support; we just have to deal with it the best we can.Demandingothersto change becausewefeel the way they express their interest and support is insufficient, is not going to work.

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2022, 04:48:00 pm
content: QuoteYou are right that it can't be dictated. I was just hinting that in a perfect world that is what would help in accepting each other.QuoteAlso right, but again in a perfect world there would not be the need for special treatment. (Some really special cases excluded)And no I'm not a naive person who does not see how shitty the real world is. I too have experienced discrimination for being "different". In what in the Netherlands is called "voortgezet onderwijs" (Age ~12 - ~18) I was teased because I was dressed like a bum in somewhat scruffy clothes. Partially because we where lets say lower middle class and partially because I did not care about my clothes, like the snobs that were teasing me did. Ended when I went to a different more liberal school where it was more in fashionThe whole problem in this world is that it is all maintained by "both" sides. Almost nobody is free of discrimination in either handing it out or receiving it. Forming tight knit groups only enhances this.QuoteA very good statement, but unfortunately that is what is happening.QuoteAs written before, that is what I like about EEVblog. Not a lot of mistreatment going on. I have seen forums where people get burned down to the ground with hate arguments, and sure it is sometimes hard to not blow up when some idiot starts gunning for you. But I try to avoid it, but like you wrote, it is in human nature.Being a loner I don't feel the need to belong, but still enjoy some good contact with others in the world. As an insight, I long ago applied for the Dutch air-force as a short term volunteer. Had to do with the fact that I had to do my "civil service" in the army but liked to continue my education. The air-force had special programs for this. But I needed to take two tests first. The first one was for intelligence, which I nailed. The second one was for determining my psychology. Flunked that one. They told me in an evaluation that I was more suited for working in a laboratory on my own, and they where right.The silly thing, when I did my "civil service" in the army they made me a sergeant based on my schooling. Did not matter that I was found not suited by the air-force for a similar position.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2022, 05:45:39 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on July 11, 2022, 01:13:39 pmIt's not a big company, more like medium sized.I looked into it and there wasn't any way to get out of it. If your company mandates training, you have to do it, under pain of dismissal.To be fair to my company, it wasn't that bad. Most of it was just about the law, which is fair enough. The things which did annoy most people were micro-aggressions and that we can't have any banter. I think enough people complained about that, so it wasn't necessary for me to have a rant. It could've been worse. It didn't go into gender ideology or critical race theory, in which case I would have told them to bugger off.Quote from: pcprogrammer on July 11, 2022, 01:26:17 pmI agree, putting people in boxes is bad and is one of the problems I have with pride, which also puts a diverse range of people in one box.The big problem is intersectionality. The idea that some groups are more oppressed than others, so deserve extra protection. A black person is more oppressed than a white person, but a black trans woman is even more oppressed. This is why we see some groups get special treatment.

author: capt bullshot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2022, 07:31:20 pm
content: Neither watched the video nor read the comments,but it's life advice time:

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2022, 07:32:48 pm
content: Quote from: Zero999 on July 11, 2022, 05:45:39 pmWhat about a black trans woman who identifies as non-binary though?

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2022, 07:57:11 pm
content: Quote from: Zero999 on July 07, 2022, 07:24:04 amThis is covered by the Sexual Offences Act 2003 and it doesn't say what seems to be being implied about the law. Rape, as a technical term, can only be committed with a penis, " assault by penetration" can be done with any object or anatomy and carries the same penalties as rape. Both can be done to a male or a female. Colloquially one would call either rape so quibbling over the technical term that someone would be charged with seems a highly disingenuous way of avoiding the "Rape is rape, regardless of the gender of the victim or the accused" point that was made.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2022, 07:57:48 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on July 11, 2022, 11:59:48 amThis was mainly due to this ESG scoring crap:https://www.esgthereport.com/what-is-an-esg-score/Quote from: EEVblog on July 11, 2022, 11:59:48 amYep. Well. The ESG thing is working between companies, scoring agencies and investors/shareholders. Although it's supposed to promote "values" that the general public is supposed to like, there is no direct link with customers - the ones, who, erm... actually pay. So yes, it's bound to collapse. Businesses ignoring their customers? Well, even though that seems kinda popular these days, I don't think that can work for very long.

author: BikerMark
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: July 11, 2022, 08:48:31 pm
content: I'm new in this forum and hanging around a bit to see what's in it.This thread drew my attention.Even here I see the division that is growing worldwide. Didn 't expect that.Two sides again arguing that the other side is wrong. Or dumb. Or dangerous.This is how the Nazis in Germany started up, don't we remember? It was not 'just' the Jews at first.It started by blaming others. Blaming people who had freed their minds from the existing esttablishment. Likehttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wassily_Kandinsky. He was blamed for making 'Entartete Kunst' ('Art that has lost its heart'). And the groundbreaking pioneering architecture of Bauhaus was banned from Nazi Germany.Then, in 1933 science was slowly seized by political points of view.https://physicstoday.scitation.org/do/10.1063/pt.6.4.20180926a/full/. It ended up by scientific focus on most effective poison for useage in their campd and rigid calculations of how many dead bodies could be handled by prisoners still alive.And how's that?What would you say when some political clown nowadys says: "Ohm's Law is forbidden from now on. He was wrong. Anybody warshipping it will be banned." Or "scientificic proof my butt. I have another opinion."I'm affraid we're heading that way, and too many people seem to be willing to stand behind 'their leader', just because he teases 'the other side'. Non importance the rubbish he spits.Please keep in mind: Science and rationality are not opinions. Let others have their opinions and their freedom of being. Even if they are more succesfull than you are. Or less.

author: Refrigerator
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2022, 09:10:03 pm
content: I think i'll chime in, even if i haven't read through the entire thread in detail, only lightly skimmed through.I've noticed that finding out one thing or another that i don't like about a content creator makes me avoid the content from that creator, even if the content itself is good.But eventually i return to the content and put my disagreements away, because they don't make for a productive lifestyle.In that sense i do agree with Dave's OP.Over time i've unsubscribed from content creators but not because of some disagreement in opinion, rather i find that i don't feel like their content interests me so i unsub to keep my sub feed cleaner. I sub and unsub freely, it's not marriage.I still remember the dark ages when Thunderf00t got into making political videos and as a result his entire community started complaining.I was among the complainers as well because i really liked his science oriented videos but his political videos were (i'll be honest here) garbage.There are also moments when he makes an obvious mistake and does not correct it, perhaps he doesn't care enough.Like in that one video about storing hydrogen in thin film coatings, where he wrongly assumed that what looked (very onviously IMO) like an 8-track casette, was in fact a flat disc.Because of that his estimation that the device only stores "a single baloon of hydrogen" was orders of magnitude out but he kept repeating the "stores one baloon of hydrogen" line over and over and over again making the video painful to watch.Generally i don't really care what a content creator is like personally, because i tend to watch videos for their content, so if they say something i consider smart or helpful i watch their videos.I don't subscribe to any political, motivational or "opinion" youtubers as i find their content mostly irrelevant to me.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2022, 09:16:56 pm
content: Quote from: Cerebus on July 11, 2022, 07:57:11 pmI was talking about a specific incident. Yes, a women could shove a dildo up your bum, but it's very different. I was simply referring to a woman being raped by a man, who was only given the opportunity to do so, because he professed to be transgender. It should be obvious by my other comments, I know most transgender people wouldn't do such a thing, but there are definitely more bad men who are willing to pretend to be trans in order to get access to women, than there are true trans people. Heck I wouldn't do anything bad to a woman, but if I had the misfortune to end up in prison, I would certainly consider transitioning, so I could get into a female prison, because the chances of being assaulted are much lower.Quote from: BikerMark on July 11, 2022, 08:48:31 pmWow, there are some worrying parallels there. A lot of it starts with good intentions. The current thinking that race is a social construct was created as the antitheses to the Nazi and colonialists who used flawed science to deem blacks and Jews to be inferior so can be treated badly. The problem is, it isn't true. We can all identify someone who's ancestry is from a different part of the world to ours, just by looking at them and some racial groups are more prone to certain diseases purely due to genetics. The fact that it's true there's more genetic variation within the same racial group than between two different ones and the lines between one race and another are often blurry are used to justify the social construct theory, but it clearly isn't true, otherwise there wouldn't be any visible differences.

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2022, 10:03:41 pm
content: Quote from: Zero999 on July 11, 2022, 09:16:56 pmThat definitely earns a [citation required]. The fact is that most women (5 in every 6) who are raped are raped by someone they know, so getting access to women isn't a problem for people with ill intent towards them. The narrative that there are a significant number of people who "pretend to be trans in order to get access to women" is clearly fallacious. Estimates are there are 300,000 trans people in the UK (GRIES 2008 via ONS) or 1 in 200 which fits my experience of knowing two people personally that I know for a fact are post-op male->female trans. Thus claiming that there are >>300,000 people wondering around pretending "to be trans in order to get access to women" is clearly a ludicrous claim.

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 12, 2022, 04:31:21 am
content: Quote from: BikerMark on July 11, 2022, 08:48:31 pmWhy is it so "not to be expected" that on this forum there would not be what you see every where in this world. Nothing wrong with arguing, and as such is always about multiple points of view. Granted when it gets out of hand it is not good, but have not seen that here yet, and if it does it is dealt with by the moderators.Quote from: BikerMark on July 11, 2022, 08:48:31 pmHere you point out a very human quality, that certainly is not good, but very easy. "Blame others never yourself"And yes there are always people who don't want to remember. If we did there would not be any war, because it brings nothing but pain and misery. There are no winners, apart form the people gaining lots of money from it, who mostly stand besides the conflict cheering to make more money.Quote from: BikerMark on July 11, 2022, 08:48:31 pmI'm afraid things like that are already happening. Not with something so obvious as Ohm's law. Look back on what happened in the US during the latest presidential elections.Quote from: BikerMark on July 11, 2022, 08:48:31 pmI beg to differ, since it is all man made. Science is a concept and every discovery is basically someones opinion and maybe at some point it is accepted as proven and true.Edit: To elaborate here. Take a look at astrophysics, there is talk about black holes and what they are how they work. The findings are all assumptions backed by man made mathematics. There is, for now, no way of actually proofing all these assumptions. Physics on earth can be proven to some extent because it is tangible, but still all the concepts are man made.But I agree, it is wise to respect someones opinions and freedom of being, but you don't have to agree with them.

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 12, 2022, 05:16:36 am
content: Quote from: pcprogrammer on July 12, 2022, 04:31:21 amOh no! Science is amethod, an attitude, an approach. What a lot of people consider science, is actually just theresultof science.The result, the work product of science, is notfacts, but measurements, models, and theories that seem to fitbest; with (scientific) peer review hopefully judging that as correctly as human beings can. (I personally considerfalsifiabilityan essential tool here.)Quote from: pcprogrammer on July 12, 2022, 04:31:21 amThere is no way of actually proofing you exist, either: it could all be just your senses being controlled by someone else, á la Matrix.Astrophysicists do a lot of work observing various phenomena, especially using radio telescopes to find out high-energy phenomena (like stars colliding). The spectra tells about a lot of stuff, including relative motion. They construct models, and compare these to real-world measurements. Many of the interesting phenomena, like black holes, have been predicted by such theories before they could be observed. So, while there is no absolute way to verify them, the models are continuously being tested against new (and old!) observations, and the non-working ones weeded out and discarded. It's not a discussion of opinions; it is putting those opinions through a wringer, everyone competing with everyone, critically examining their properties, behaviour, predictions and such. Those that fail, are discarded.That kind of putting an opinion against opinion, without putting person against person, i.e. proper honest debate, is something I enjoy, because I always learn something.It seems that in this age of social media, people have difficulty separatingopinionfrom aperson.(I don't mean pcprogrammer; I mean in the context of this topic: that because someone has a silly opinion, many people consider them to be a silly person. That is not necessarily so, because a single opinion does not reveal much about a person. In real life, a handful of silly opinions is perfectly acceptable in an otherwise good person. Say, someone who treats others well, goes to the doctor regularly, but also believes in healing crystals or something.)

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 12, 2022, 05:23:20 am
content: Thanks for emphasizing and further explain my point.Edit:QuoteThat is true, and with that we enter a slippery field where there is no end.I' have seen some bits of video where Elon Musk, together with others was interviewed and he was stating we could be in a simulation of some super computer of some other intelligence just as an experiment. But then you can also go beyond that and think that this other intelligence is in a simulation of some more super computer of some even higher intelligence, and so on

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 12, 2022, 07:13:36 am
content: Thats why the most sensible rule is forbid transgender in the first place.. hormon teraphy to get back to original gender. not just the above mentioned issue. Imagine you fall in love with a Girl later on bed you realize she got a dick, vice versa whats its going to happen later? Thats why i feel fun when soemone said human can sort out to better solution, yeah right you all can debate all decades long...in the end you'll know whose teaching is true but only if you can live long enough... we use imagination to extrapolate and mental logic.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 12, 2022, 07:29:23 am
content: Quote from: Mechatrommer on July 12, 2022, 07:13:36 amAs a libertarian, I'd argue you can do what you want with your own body. On the other hand, there's an argument for prohibiting medical treatments which haven't been proven to be beneficial to the patient.Of course people should be honest about who they really are, especially when it comes to sex.Quote from: Cerebus on July 11, 2022, 10:03:41 pmFair point, it's true records aren't kept, but we don't know of the number of genuine cases either: the figures you gave are estimates. This is complicated by the fact that not all cases of transgenderism are the same psychological phenomenon. Gender dysphoria is cited as the most common reason, but for many male to female transitions it's autogynephilia. Hallmarks of this are transitioning to female, yet identifying as lesbian and gender euphoria, i.e. being turned on at the thought of expressing female characteristics.Anyway, I know for sure that as soon as the door is opened to anyone who identifies as woman is allowed into a female prison, the number of men who transition to do so will exceed those who genuinely are trans in prison. Heck, it wouldn't surprise me if we're nearly there already in some jurisdictions with that policy. Don't forget I'm talking about the criminal element of society here, not honest people.Quote from: pcprogrammer on July 12, 2022, 05:23:20 amThere's the scientific method and consensus. The latter can be corrupted by political and financial interests. If the authorities put a certain policy in place, justified by their team of scientists, anyone who contradicts it can face repercussions. We've seen this over the last couple of years, in response to the pandemic. The fact doctors and scientists got in trouble for disagreeing with the authorities' response is very worrying. It does call into question other areas where there's a scientific consensus.

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 12, 2022, 07:49:38 am
content: Quote from: Zero999 on July 12, 2022, 07:29:23 amAgreed.To me (who self-identifies as a scientist), "scientific consensus" is the continuous work product,status quo, with literally the meaning "okay, so this is our current best understanding, but it may/could/should change as we obtain more results", and nothing more. It is not a 'fact' –– even 'scientific fact' just means "we cannot find anything to contradict this, and we tried, hard". However, non-scientific and non-engineering types tend to think about things from a less rigorously defined viewpoints, and they really do not understand the enormous amount of work that has gone into it, so sometimes linguistic shortcuts have to be taken to make sure the listeners get the correct intuitive picture.Similarly, 'scientific opinion' is a summary of that consensus, or work product of own professional knowledge if asked to provide one on the spot. (When you ask a real scientist, they will/should describe not only what they themselves believe to be the most likely explanation, but also any contending models/theories, if there are any.)It would utterly demolish the scientific community if scientists were to reject co-operation with those that have differing opinions. The quality of the work product would crash, and not be worth it to anyone anymore. I do not see how any society in general can survive that, either.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 12, 2022, 07:58:52 am
content: Quote from: Zero999 on July 12, 2022, 07:29:23 amthey should be honest with their appearance too, because it will deceive others.. thou shall not looks like woman...

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 12, 2022, 11:29:23 am
content: Quote from: Mechatrommer on July 12, 2022, 07:58:52 amAnd there you go again, the circle is closed.The whole argument is to let people be free in what they think or feel, within limits of some common sense. Religion, laws and politics should take this into account, but here common sense seems often missing.Treatment for an "disorder" you are born with won't work. If transgender feelings are not present at birth (simplistically spoken) and caused by a trauma, like Zero999 pointed out, then treatment is maybe possible, but still up to the "patient" to decide what needs to be done. That is the problem with society we are so focused on controlling others and seem to have lost the ability to think for ourselves.The same discussion can be held on euthanasia and abortion. In these area's, for me, is should be a personal decision, not hindered by a bunch of people who are afraid of death. Trust me, making such a decision for your self is hard enough. Both my parents made the decision it was time. My mother had suffered a stroke 8 years ago and never recovered from it. Things only got worse. It took 3 years to get things arranged, partially due to corona, but also due to regulations. 3 years of suffering and agony, which was also hard on my dad. He would have liked to end it at the same time, but that was not possible due to regulations. Took over 6 months before he was found ill enough to also qualify for euthanasia.I was present at both their goodby's and it was humane. It was not a decision taken lightly.And yes it would be nice if every body was honest, but I'm afraid that is never going to happen.

author: AndyBeez
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 12, 2022, 11:50:11 am
content: In support of the OP, an applcable quote from the daily dairy of quotes: "Being good at what you do comes a far second to being good with the people you do it with."Ergo, you maybe a brilliant engineer, but if you're a shite people person, then no matter how many dismissive and patronising tantrums you throw at the 'idiots surrounding you', you will never have anyone's respect to be lost. Just possibly your own office with a door kept shut.Ergo-ergo, which is why the real idiots become our respected team, business, political and opinion leaders.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 12, 2022, 11:58:57 am
content: Quote from: pcprogrammer on July 12, 2022, 11:29:23 amor simply is it just a desire? at later point in life, because there are many trans around and they are cool!? the disorder should be strictly diagnosed imho, if it cant be fixed, then so be it, a special ID card for disability (or special ability) is given or something like that, recommended to undergone a counseling or something on how to go around society and how not to harm/deceive others. the same thing to normal people, they should be educated to respect them as well, like how we respect disabled people.Quote from: pcprogrammer on July 12, 2022, 11:29:23 amthe idea is to consider all aspect to reduce harm or pain to everybody, to the body's owner, and to others around them as well.. we choose the lesser of evil. btw now i dont understand how this "you ignore people just because you dont like his belief and you missed the good stuffs" thread went into politics and trans discussion, but i'm sure this is the job for politicians, or people who enforced regulations to think of, but it looks like they are crippled as well as us, so everybody is trying to be clever here

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 12, 2022, 12:09:01 pm
content: Quote from: Mechatrommer on July 12, 2022, 11:58:57 amAutogynephilia?https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blanchard%27s_transsexualism_typology#AutogynephiliaQuote from: Mechatrommer on July 12, 2022, 07:58:52 amInterestingly there's a taboo in most western countries against pretending to be someone from a minority racial group i.e. a person with light skin wearing dark makeup, yet it's perfectly fine for a man to pretend he's a woman, even if this is in a sexist manner. I find this quite strange.Quote from: pcprogrammer on July 12, 2022, 11:29:23 amThe treatment may differ depending on whether it's a innate or caused by trauma, but that doesn't meant that if someone is born with something it's untreatable. It's weird how clinicians generally disapprove of treatments such as surgery and drugs which physically change the body (psychiatric drugs are another story) for other psychological problems. If someone wants to have a health limb amputated, because they feel repulsed by it, clinicians generally discourage is and want to try everything else first. This doesn't seem to be the case with the transgender business.QuoteSorry about your mum. That must've have been an easy decision for her. I've lost members of my family to stroke. It's genetic. None of them were obese or lead an unhealthy lifestyle. My mum has had two strokes, which she fortunately recovered from, so I can sympathise.I feel conflicted about things which affect others and could be the result of society. Abortion does affect an embryo, fetus or child, depending on the stage, yet on the other hand there's the rights of the woman. I think it should be permitted in the early stages of pregnancy, yet forbidden at the latter stages, when if it were born, it would be an otherwise healthy child. I think there should be more consideration to alternatives such as adoption and more maternal support as well as contraception. There are exceptions for this, such as when he baby will die anyway, when it's born and it should be removed to protect the woman's life. Euthanasia is another one: does the person only want to die because they can't get treatment or support for a medical or psychological condition? If it's too permissive then I can see people killing themselves when it's easily preventable and they could have many years of happy life left.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 12, 2022, 12:48:32 pm
content: Quote from: Zero999 on July 12, 2022, 12:09:01 pmif you are in my shoes, its not strange at all, those are very well embedded in us if not educated properly... racism/tribalism and lust/desire... one man tries to be wise at deciding what to do, but at the same time affected by those negative influenses in him, resulting bad decisions. what i find strange is many people dont realize thiseinstein said we cant solve the problem with the same kind of thinking that created it..just an example.. abortion, why it happened? unmarried sex or nobody want to be responsible to take care of the child usually due to... unmarried sex! what kind of married man to not want be responsible right? (exception if there is complications risking mothers life) solution... married first before sex, but... marriage event is not trivial, you need to spend thousands of dollars or probably lots of legal papers. now there's a chain of problems making to solve the root problem impossible... solution? use condom and unmarried sex is still legal, thats how human solve it (remember the lust/desire influence above? sex is good! bearing a child is not) now you may try, condom has been around for so long, abortion is same... now how actually to solve abortion? well you dont have to because society want to shot their own feet in the first place because it feels good, bearing a child is not, prevention means they will not feel good, so they try to cure the problem they created. so women and daughters got discriminated, for as long as there's sun and moon shining...

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 12, 2022, 01:49:40 pm
content: Quote from: Zero999 on July 12, 2022, 12:09:01 pmI was only talking about gender and sexual attraction related "disorders" since that was the topic at hand. Sure there are birth defects that can be treated. In the case of amputating a healthy limb I can certainly understand that it is discouraged because living without an arm or leg is more difficult, where as living without a penis is less so. But mental problems are very difficult. Hard to say what goes on in someones mind.With my mother there was quite a change in personality after the stroke. It did not affect her memory, but things like emotions were enhanced, ability to tell time was destroyed, etc. Very hard to see someone deteriorate from being fairly active and independent to just a lump of meat in a chair being in agony. Seeing a psychologist did not help her.Quote from: Zero999 on July 12, 2022, 12:09:01 pmThanks, and right back at you. Hope she is still doing well.Not sure if it is really genetic. My mother had clogged arteries from the good life and needed an operation for it. The operation was a success, but after it a blood clot blocked an artery in her brain. She was still in hospital, but a lot of damage was done before the staff could react.Quote from: Zero999 on July 12, 2022, 12:09:01 pmTo some extend I can agree with you about actions that affect others. I'm not sure about what it is in the Netherlands for abortion, but I believe up to three months into the pregnancy. But where abortion is concerned I still think it is something between the two people who are involved. I'm not saying just go a head and do it. There has to be guidance, but remove the guilt trip surrounding it.Similar for euthanasia. I agree that if it is to liberal it might go wrong, but is it not better that someone who want's to end their life, can go to a place where they can do it in a humane way and not burden, for instance, a train driver by jumping in front of a train. Again there can be guidance and help with finding a solution, but there are many people who just want to die, and who are we as a society to forbid them from doing so.I know a lot of problems here come forth from emotion, egoism and fear. Family members that can not stand the though of loosing someone, but sometimes you have to look beyond your own needs.

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 12, 2022, 01:58:46 pm
content: Quote from: Mechatrommer on July 12, 2022, 12:48:32 pmYou don't want to feed the man who won't take responsibility for their actions. It will leave you brokeDon't see what marriage has to do with it. And condoms are not 100% reliable so not a solution. And then there is also rape. A woman can get pregnant from it.For the rest I can't make out what your point is.

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 12, 2022, 02:45:59 pm
content: Quote from: Mechatrommer on July 12, 2022, 11:58:57 amIs heterosexuality simply because there are so many straight people around?What makes a person straight? Childhood trauma? Lifestyle choice? Do you simply choose to be straight?...And anyway, even if it were just a lifestyle choice -- what the fuck gives us any reason to dictate that to others? Some people rip their arms off doing stupid stunts; surely we should prevent them from doing so as they are a hazard to themselves, potentially others, and a burden on our healthcare system!And yet we don't. Yet we [those who do, to various degrees in various countries] see fit to dictate these things to LGBTs, to women, to minorities.Is it *really* done based on a coherent, rational argument, for society's sake, or the affected individuals'? Or is it actually one group asserting dominance over the other, in whatever arbitrary, and usually abusive, way they can?But you can't reason someone out of an idea they didn't reason into. Someone hostile to rational ideas, will not be sensitive to them; indeed, not for lack of functional rationality, as they will gladly pull together any and all facts, applicable or not, in a pseudo-rational attempt to destroy the argument; for the rational statement is necessarily both secured by, and vulnerable to, rational argument. All that is needed is for one such case to slip through, and they've won.Even the sheer weight of doubt being cast (no matter how illegitimate), will serve its rhetorical purpose to the uncritical listener. Which is the bread and butter of conservative, gish gallop speakers like Ben Shapiro.Tim

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 12, 2022, 03:09:43 pm
content: Quote from: pcprogrammer on July 12, 2022, 01:58:46 pmQuote from: T3sl4co1l on July 12, 2022, 02:45:59 pmBefore you two get too upset. Look at his flag. He's from a very socially conservative country, so his views are going to reflect such a culture.It's funny how the idea of cultural relativism has gained popularity in the west: all cultures are equal, yet different, but this is clearly flawed. I'm sure you'd rather live somewhere with a culture of law and order, rather than one of lynchings.Anyway, there are positives of conservative cultures. I'm conservative in some respects, just as much as libertarian, which does create some internal conflict on some issues and I think that is a good thing.

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 12, 2022, 03:10:02 pm
content: Quote from: Zero999 on July 12, 2022, 12:09:01 pmThere are other cases where we risk the life of one to save another.Is it right to take a blood transfusion from one person, if it means saving another?Is it right to take an organ transplant from one person, if it means saving another?Is it right to use the uterus in one person, if it means saving another?All are cases strictly trading bodily autonomy of one, for survival of another.Note that the first is almost never fatal to the donor, and the second can have either a small quality-of-life cost (e.g. one kidney, liver section), or is performed after the donor ceases to exist (any other organ donation).In 2/3 cases, we rule unanimously in favor of the donor: it must be voluntary, and well informed.And yet we* rule differently in the last case. Why? A fetus is important, sure, but it's no thriving 8-year-old child. Or 25-year-old adult earning income. Or any other stage of life we might value, for whatever reasons, emotional or economic.*Again, in the sense of those that do, and where they do.Yet there is a group which professes an outsized, indeed fetishized I would say, fervor for the unborn. Why? Well, you can't understand it on a rational basis, that's for sure. And they sure as hell aren't going to be kicked out of that mindset with a rational argument. It's a peer belief: a shibboleth. It doesn't need any particular meaning, just that it remains something polarizing to maintain the group dynamic.And taking something manifestly irrational and making a shibboleth out of it, ensures no one leaves by rational argument -- they already rejected reason on it, when they accepted the group. Easy.Indeed, it is by design.No one in that group thought particularly much of the idea before it was introduced, yet treat it as so obvious as to need no explanation now. American Catholics and evangelicals are a prime example: largely being the same population before and after the anti-abortion movement occurred, and not being particularly against it beforehand.The question remains, whose design is it?Indeed, there are direct historical sources which answer this question (for this particular group), but I'll leave it hanging for now.Tim

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 12, 2022, 03:15:22 pm
content: Quote from: Zero999 on July 12, 2022, 03:09:43 pmRelativism isn't an issue here -- we aren't on a Malaysian forum, but an English (read: commonwealth) forum. Indeed it goes the other way, they are expected to follow our norms here.Anyway, I already know from past experience, not to much much weight/trust in @Mechatrommer's arguments/statements/penchant for borderline trolling (or, I forget if they've received any disciplinary action?, in which case not just borderline). Appreciate the reality check though.Tim

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 12, 2022, 03:22:13 pm
content: Quote from: T3sl4co1l on July 12, 2022, 02:45:59 pmGood one, that can bring up nurture versus nature.A big worry in society, a homosexual couple having a child. Will it also become homosexual.But aside from that, in "normal" families this is also a question in what determines your chances in life. When you are born dumb can you still succeed when properly nurtured? Or are we all born equal as a blank slate and is it nurture what makes that we become intelligent?

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 12, 2022, 03:26:05 pm
content: Quote from: pcprogrammer on July 12, 2022, 01:58:46 pmbut everybody is doing just that! the problem is not in the feed them or not, its in the education.. once the scheme got wrong boom, you are producing just that!Quote from: pcprogrammer on July 12, 2022, 01:58:46 pmfirst we need to know the right definition of it, and then recognizing threats or bad outcomes (as we usually seen) if we are not adhering to that definition... long story...Quote from: pcprogrammer on July 12, 2022, 01:58:46 pmi dont say it is, but how many just forgot or dont want to wear it?Quote from: pcprogrammer on July 12, 2022, 01:58:46 pmthats another exception, but major rape cases only took place for few minutes or hours, we have 1-3 days emergency pills for that.Quote from: pcprogrammer on July 12, 2022, 01:58:46 pmsure enough, we have different path of education from ground up, its another long story... or simply, we maybe missing alot of good stuffscheers.Quote from: T3sl4co1l on July 12, 2022, 02:45:59 pm2 types of heterosexual, one is straight and one is trans. we are discussing about trans because straight is what considered normal and free way from "nature" for procreation. the other types are counterproductive and produce other problems that we are trying to solve or find hacks to them. i was talking about those who "choose" to change their natural/physical gender, not including natural disorder.Quote from: T3sl4co1l on July 12, 2022, 02:45:59 pmnot abusive, we can only advice. when problem occured, the best i can hint them politely... see? i've told you! you were just asking for it, you just werent aware of it yetQuote from: T3sl4co1l on July 12, 2022, 02:45:59 pmditto! difference in education, awareness and definitions of things also play the role... personal interests, agenda and hypocrites are another matter that is quite impossible to prove from within oneself.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 12, 2022, 03:32:01 pm
content: Quote from: T3sl4co1l on July 12, 2022, 03:15:22 pmI completely agree, but there are those who would disagree. Tell that to some of those who are in favour of mass immigration in to the UK. There are those who tolerate attitudes from those who are from less liberal countries, which they wouldn't otherwise tolerate if it was another Westerner.I'm quite tolerant of different views, even if they are racist, homophobic or whatever. Perhaps I admit I'm slightly more understanding of those from different cultures, but I'd say the same about the older generation. This is also why I think we need to be careful about who we allow into the country: they need to have values compatible with our own.Quote from: T3sl4co1l on July 12, 2022, 03:10:02 pmI don't see the idea of protecting the unborn to be any more illogical, than a baby. The problem is extremes. In most of Europe where abortion is allowed, it's only permitted in the early stages of pregnancy. I believe the UK has one of the most liberal laws at 24 weeks. When it was originally legalised back in the lat 60s, it was 28 weeks, because most babies born before then didn't survive anyway, but cut to 24 in the early 90s, based on the high survival rates of babies born before 24 weeks, due to medical advancements. My own personal view is 12 weeks, based on what we know about fetal development, i.e. the ability to feel pain, but since very few abortions occur beyond this period in the UK, there's little point in changing the law and it's not politically possible. The problem in the US is many on the pro-choice side want no limits. The idea that it's okay to kill a perfectly healthy child, 9 months after conception whilst it's still in the womb is legal and fine, yet just a couple of hours later, after it's born, is morally wrong and inconsistent.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 12, 2022, 03:32:40 pm
content: Quote from: Zero999 on July 12, 2022, 03:09:43 pmdont look! otherwise you'll be missing the good stuffs! by hating and ignoring meand i think you have not gone to my country. its becoming the one like yoursso its a fight before its too late for us. by awareness on your side, its probably will come back to us because most of us are putting your culture as the standard way of living. but i can see problems here and there so maybe its wise for me to address it the soonest i can when i see circumstances is right, like in this thread (violation of eevblog rules) but even "wise" is relative term, thats why i said its the definitions we developed from our ground up.

author: fourfathom
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 12, 2022, 03:43:37 pm
content: Quote from: T3sl4co1l on July 12, 2022, 02:45:59 pmBut for most of the issues we are discussing "reason" isn't really a factor. In the case of abortion we are talking about things like "souls" and "when does a sperm / egg/ fetus /baby become a human?" If we can't prove any of this (and we can't), then the best we can hope for is to reach consensus. But that consensus won't be based on reason, it will be based on utility and whatever morality is in fashion. And obviously this consensus has room for vast grey areas, so even logical people may reach quite different conclusions.The same holds for most anything that involves humans. We have consensus rules, but these vary by time and place and there is no scientific proof for these rules, just opinion.Me, I believe in the Golden Rule: Do as to others as you would have them do unto you (but even this is fraught with problems.) I believe that the universe has no rules other than the laws of physics (which we don't fully understand). Humans have to make up the rest.

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 12, 2022, 03:46:18 pm
content: Quote from: Zero999 on July 12, 2022, 03:32:01 pmGood point. Yes where do you draw the line. When does a child become aware of life. I see death as final, you are no longer in existence, no after life, so for the person dying it has no impact, other then being dead. In light of this one can wonder if it is so bad to die when you have never really been aware of living.The emotional impact for the parents might be bigger after the baby has been born though.

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 12, 2022, 03:57:30 pm
content: Quote from: Mechatrommer on July 12, 2022, 03:26:05 pmClearly you did not get the intent of that statement. It is a Dutch expression to indicate the vastness of something. "Je zal ze maar te eten moeten geven" meaning something like "oh boy do I have to feed all those people"But sure, proper education might enlight some of these problems, but jerks will always be there.

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 12, 2022, 04:11:25 pm
content: Quote from: pcprogrammer on July 12, 2022, 03:22:13 pmThat's an easy one to answer because there's now enough experience with same sex couples with children to say "No, they do not. At least, no more often than the children of heterosexual couples".

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 12, 2022, 04:16:43 pm
content: Quote from: Cerebus on July 12, 2022, 04:11:25 pmWhich would imply that homosexuality is nature and not nurture, and to me that was the whole point of T3sl4co1l statement, and what a big part of this discussion is about.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 12, 2022, 04:26:36 pm
content: Quote from: fourfathom on July 12, 2022, 03:43:37 pmright! but that alone is not enough, just because A likes his wife/daughters to get spanked, so he can do the same to others... no! even if the others and the wife/daughters like toit will create problems in the end.. thats why the definitions of whats right and wrong must be correct. and how to know if its correct? it will not create problems later!and usually social problems are hard to solve because of long chain of cause and effects. and the chain could have developed in so many years or decades. cheers.Quote from: pcprogrammer on July 12, 2022, 04:16:43 pmnurture effect is not only from parents, its also from surroundings (society), and since homosexuals know the value of "freedom of choice". but agreed nature also plays a big role. disorders need to be fixed if possible, not exaggerated. i've mentioned that earlier.

author: fourfathom
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 12, 2022, 04:41:54 pm
content: Quote from: Mechatrommer on July 12, 2022, 04:26:36 pmThe homosexuals I've known would not consider it a disorder.FWIW I think it's likely 90% nature and 10% nurture, but social pressure during the "formative years" might significantly skew those percentages. Again, FWIW, the homosexual couples with children (I've known a few) seem to try to raise them without indoctrination, probably not wanting to subject their child to the social difficulties they've encountered. But this is merely a personal observation based on a very small sample size.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 12, 2022, 04:49:59 pm
content: Quote from: pcprogrammer on July 12, 2022, 03:46:18 pmAbortion later on in the pregnancy also carries greater risks for the women. I've heard all sorts of nasty stories from women in the US who have had abortions which have gone badly, resulting in infertility and are now strongly pro-life. Had they had the termination early on, it most likely would have gone without complication.Quote from: pcprogrammer on July 12, 2022, 04:16:43 pmQuote from: fourfathom on July 12, 2022, 04:41:54 pmAll the evidence I've seen points to homosexuality being nature, rather than nurture. The fact it's existed in societies where it's hugely taboo, just as much as those where it's celebrated is indicative of this. It's also the experience of homosexuals I know personally, which includes my brother.Transexualism on the other hand is something completely different altogether. It just got tied up with homosexuality because there are many homosexual men who are very feminine and women who are masculine. This is unfortunate in my opinion. I think making irreversible changes to ones body, which can have long term impacts on their health, because of how they feel psychologically is something which should be discouraged. I've heard all sorts of harrowing stories from those who regret it. I know there are also plenty of people who transition and it was positive, but it's something which needs to be treated with caution.I don't view homosexuality as a disorder because it doesn't affect one's quality of life. It's discrimination which does that. The one thing I do acknowledge is homosexual men are indeed more likely to engage in risky sexual behaviours, than other demographics, which do increase the risk of contracting diseases. This is why I think discouraging promiscuity is a good thing.

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 12, 2022, 05:10:39 pm
content: Quote from: fourfathom on July 12, 2022, 04:41:54 pmNeither do the homosexuals I know.With social pressure you mean it causing the suppression of any homosexual feelings?Because even though society has seen a rise in acceptance, in school there might still be a very homophobic attitude. And with society showing a possible shift to right extremism, acceptance is likely to drop again. Take a look at the latest French elections. Even though Macron won the first two rounds he lost to the right in the second rounds.And homophobia has deep roots. For example. Long ago in a work environment there was a discussion about handsomeness. I said that for me Richard Gere is a handsome man. The reaction of some was immediately, oh "HOMO". And that I'm not, never had sexual feelings for an other man. But that does not mean that I can't appreciate how someone looks, both man or woman.

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 12, 2022, 05:34:21 pm
content: Quote from: Zero999 on July 12, 2022, 04:49:59 pmDid not think about that, but seems logical. Might it also have to do with under what circumstances they were performed? You sometimes hear these horror stories about illegal abortions in not to proper clinics.Quote from: Zero999 on July 12, 2022, 04:49:59 pmI have no personal insights in transsexualism because I have never met a person who had these feelings. But your argument of making irreversible changes to ones body should then also extend to plastic surgery, where it might also go wrong. Think about nose jobs because a person does not like his appearance and has mental problems because of that. Not an exact comparison with chopping your penis off (to put it bluntly) but it might also back fire. Same as with breast implants and so on.About the homosexual man being more likely to engage in risky sexual behaviors I can vouch for that. I was befriended with a guy a long time ago who came out after being married and he jumped into the scene. At some point he did contract HIV. Lost contact when we moved further south. The only thing we really had in common was badminton.

author: rx8pilot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 12, 2022, 05:41:39 pm
content: I support people I like and trust to be a reasonable contributor to society.I do not support people I don't like or trust to be a reasonable contributor to society.For those that I like and trust.....I still treat with skepticism.For those that I do NOT like or trust......they get treated with considerably more skepticism.For those that I do NOT like or trust because of some specific issues, I will still potentially believe and benefit from other areas where they have a solid knowledge base.When consuming that knowledge benefits them in some way (YouTube views for example), I stay away. There are so many places and methods to learn what I want to learn so unless the person I don't like has something particularly unique and amazing to offer....I will support others that I feel make a better overall contribution to society.I only have so many hours in the day and could not consume even the tiniest fraction of all the knowledge on the internet, so why not choose to support those that I have reason to trust or like? Some of them may be total hidden scoundrels in real life, but if they are not pushing nasty things to huge audiences - whatever. I cannot analyze everyone and everything, just the people that choose to voice their opinions. Once they do that, I have something to base a decision on.I totally support anyone's right to air an opinion while totally supporting my right to click-away to find useful information from somewhere else.There are only a few places on the internet that offer uniquely useful information to me. So far, those places stay sharply on topic and I have zero clue about who they are in real life. Even if they turned out to be nut-jobs [in my personal view of course] at some point, I will still consume their content based on its uniqueness - but no direct support like Patreon, merch, affiliate links, etc, etc.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 12, 2022, 06:20:21 pm
content: Quote from: fourfathom on July 12, 2022, 04:41:54 pmthats the problem, they dont want to get fixed, instead they take female hormone, fix their genital etc, even when knowing certain risks...i have lesser problem with gay or an inversed-trans (female want to be male), hot chicks with dicks is what sometime get into my nerve. there is a "female" ee youtubers linked here sometime ago, i got a delusion that just if my wife is like that interest, my lab will be 2 persons instead of me alone and the one is up top looking at FB status without knowing or appreciating what i'm doing down here, not even a glance. but when browsing the youtuber's video's to the early beginning, i was likethey are playing with people's feeling. from there on i'll be wary if i see an ee-female around in youtube... btw i saw a video about few trans who regretted it, but i cant find it so far, this is what i can show you right now.. wait until you are old enough and come back to draw you opinion, dont while you are hot and gorgeous...

author: RoGeorge
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 12, 2022, 06:45:13 pm
content: Quote from: fourfathom on July 12, 2022, 03:43:37 pmWe have a similar saying (based on reciprocity, in Romanian, "Ce ţie nu-ţi place, altuia nu-i face."), in translation "Don't do to others what you wouldn't like" (for others to do to you). The outcome is very different from the En saying.The Ro saying avoids enforcing to others something that one might like, but the others wouldn't like at all for that to be done to them.

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 12, 2022, 06:50:10 pm
content: Quote from: Zero999 on July 12, 2022, 04:49:59 pmAFAIK, most US states ban it after 24 weeks or thereabouts; which is also well past the point where, you know you're having it, and you've probably named it besides. It's a wanted birth, as long as it's viable of course.And on that note, don't forget the cases where abortive procedures are needed, for medical reasons. Miscarriage is a natural consequence, sometimes. There should be no shame in that, nor in cleaning up a stillborn birth. Sometimes the placenta doesn't completely release, leaving material stuck in the birth canal -- even from an otherwise healthy birth. If that material isn't cut off, it will inevitably become septic; and pulling it out will likely cause internal bleeding.These are not cases where abortion kills a viable, healthy, wanted, already-loved fetus/baby. But they are instances that are becoming unavailable in some states now. The recent SCOTUS decisionis doing violenceon women in those states. Hopefully this will not last for long*, but it will still leave millions of women traumatized, disfigured -- or dead.*The soonest it can be corrected is probably early next year, contingent on Congress gaining enough votes to, you know, actually do something.QuoteThere are plenty of cases where, say the parents, already realized their child showing counter-gender differences by, like, age 6 or 8. Things like clothing preferences, toys, music, whatever. Later, coming out basically something like, "Mom, Dad, I'm gay." "We know. Hungry for dinner yet?"And there's plenty of ways to show preference. Cross dressing, homosexuality, gender identity, and much more. How much any of those might manifest during childhood, and whether as just a fun thing (momentarily, or persisting through life), whether it's imitating something seen in society, whether a deeper underlying preference -- take your pick.An upside of humans' anomalously long childhood, is having lots of time to figure out these feelings (or, well... to at least begin to), and the best thing we can do is welcome all types, whatever they decide to present as -- if indeed they choose to present as anything consistently at all (gender-fluid), or nothing, for that matter (asexual). We can justbe nice to people!QuoteWell, lots of things have been tied up together as "deviant", regardless of how they were deviant. Past discrimination/prosecution of a group is no excuse for present discrimination, of course.You know why there's many stories of post-op regret? Because pre-op suicides don't tell tales.The numbers show lifesaving outcomes.Some background data:https://www.thetrevorproject.org/blog/the-trevor-project-publishes-new-journal-article-on-trans-and-nonbinary-youth-mental-health/From Canada:https://www.cmaj.ca/content/194/22/E767Outcomes:https://www.jahonline.org/article/S1054-139X(21)00568-1/fulltexthttps://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamasurgery/article-abstract/2779429Also just to clear up ignorance on the matter, if applicable. Trans therapy is not done lightly. It has life changing purposes and outcomes, and takes time for the patient to adjust to it. It involves, not necessarily in order: therapy, hormones, gender transition counselling, and gender-affirming surgeries. Mind that some surgeries are not permanent in the way you think, but cosmetic. Brow ridge reduction, voicebox sizing, implants / breast reduction, etc. Genital reconstruction is only done after considerable counselling, and often isn't done at all -- especially as people realize penises can be feminine, or vulvas masculine. (Insertfor relevant wit.)I'm sure some processes aren't conducted so well, and shame on the doctors -- or hospitals or other systems -- that fail their patients. And no, there's no guarantee one won't regret their decisions. Do you regret your <embarrassing life event>? Yeah, there you go. But you gotta live with it. Sometimes that's breaking up with an SO, sometimes that's a disfiguring car crash, sometimes that's a surgery. It's unfortunate, but it happens. All that medical science can do -- at least at the present, until such time as we develop enough instrumentation to individualize medical therapies -- is statistical, on populations. And the science says it works, so that's the best solution for now.It is, very much, a personal decision, and that's very much something a "libertarian" for example should approve of.Tim

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 12, 2022, 06:56:57 pm
content: Quote from: pcprogrammer on July 12, 2022, 05:34:21 pmThey were legal, as far as I'm aware.QuoteI agree about cosmetic surgery, but you're right, chopping parts of and taking hormones is a much bigger deal.I haven't known any transgender people personally, but I have read quite a lot about it. it's a complex topic. Much more so than the simple narratives given by the mainstream media.Quote from: pcprogrammer on July 12, 2022, 05:10:39 pmIt depends on how you define the word homophobia? Is being disgusted at the sight of two men kissing homophobic? How about refusing to employ someone who's homosexual? I admit, I don't like seeing two men kissing, but what someone gets up to in their own time is their business and I would have no problem employing someone who's homosexual.Quote from: Mechatrommer on July 12, 2022, 06:20:21 pmYou're confusing transgenderism with homosexuality. There is a big difference between the two.Someone who's homosexual is happy with their biological sex, they're just attracted to others of the same sex. For example, men who are attracted to other men. This is simple and isn't regarded as a disorder by most people because the individual would be fine if it wasn't for others having a problem with his or her same sex attraction.Transgenderism is when someone wants to change their body, or live their life as though they're of the opposite gender, to their biological sex. This can range from a man who wears women's clothes all of the time and wants to be known as her and she and by a feminine name, to wanting to have breast implants, take hormones and have his penis removed. There are many reasons why people feel the need to do this. It's complicated and not fully understood.

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 12, 2022, 07:12:48 pm
content: Quote from: RoGeorge on July 12, 2022, 06:45:13 pmIn (somewhat old) Dutch it is "Wat gij niet wilt dat u geschiedt, doe dat ook een ander niet" and translates into "don't do upon others the things that you don't want done to you"

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 12, 2022, 07:14:18 pm
content: Quote from: Zero999 on July 12, 2022, 06:56:57 pmQuote from: Zero999 on July 12, 2022, 06:56:57 pmno i'm not confusing them. same applied to trans, they think its not a disorder, they exagerate it. if you want to see lots of trans (and some inversed, some are my close related), you can come to my "conservative" country over here, they even cut and fondle my hair (if my fav barber is fully occupied) they do things and jobs and very well accepted by majority. i dont have much problem with them since even with much effort to try to look like a woman and more body part exposure, we can still distiguish from the way they walkhomo otoh is pure disgusting (for me esp male when they do love things in public) they are very very seldom here but i've encoutered one or two. imho its a feel good stink-ass sickness just want to get rid of sexual-related responsibility. i'm sorry if you have a family of such.

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 12, 2022, 07:27:29 pm
content: Quote from: Zero999 on July 12, 2022, 06:56:57 pmTricky one. Some people don't like seeing any sexual or affectionate display between either sexes in what ever combination. Would that be sexophobic (just making up a word here to make a point) I don't consider myself homophobic, but I don't like seeing two man kissing. Would have no problem hiring a homosexual if his or her qualifications meet the job. But we have addressed this beforeI think more in the lines of discriminating (which I guess refusing to employ is also a form of) or even worse beating them up as being homophobic.But you are right human psyche is very complex indeed.Signing of for my daily dose of sleep.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 12, 2022, 08:52:08 pm
content: Quote from: T3sl4co1l on July 12, 2022, 06:50:10 pmI think the pro-choice advocates who don't want any limits are as bigger problem as those who want it banned under all circumstances. They only polarise people into being more anti-abortion.Most abortions in the US occur as a form of birth control. The law should be the same across all states. A limit of say 12 weeks, with exceptions which you've mentioned, would remove any concerns of sex selection, eugenics and the foetus feeling pain, since it's almost impossible to tell what it's going to be and the evidence suggests the brain isn't developed enough at that point. It wouldn't have much effect in states where it's legal and the limit is 24 weeks, because most abortions occur within the first 12 anyway.QuoteWe shouldn't read into things. Children change as they grow up and often revert to more typical interests for their sex when they get older. The problem people often read into this sort of thing too much. I used to like rainbows, flowers and would play with a doll's house when I was 6, but I grew up to be straight and it was my brother who turned out gay. There are some radicals who are promoting the idea of transgenderism to vulnerable young people. It really is a problem.QuoteIt's silly to compare chopping of my penis to other dumb decisions and cosmetic surgery.Two of those studies just show the obvious: people with a mental heath disorder are more likely to commit suicide. The same could be said about bipolar disorder, or schizophrenia, which are also stigmatised by society. The one regarding hormone therapy is interesting but it's impossible to tell whether it's the hormones themselves, or other factors. They did account for parental support, but not others such as counselling. It's not a long term study and no temporal relation to the start of treatment is made. It's just a snapshot of how the participants were doing at that point in time. As is often the case with studies into transgenderism, there's a political bias, which taints it somewhat."High rates of depression, suicidal ideation, and suicide attempts among transgender youth are sometimes used by antitransgender politicians and activists to erroneously suggest that transgender identity is a mental health condition that can be treated through counseling and conversion efforts []. These individuals ignore the impacts of gender dysphoria and minority stress [] and suggest that GAHT is not necessary if transgender youth can be counseled into accepting their sex assigned at birth."They haven't proved that counselling isn't sometimes an effective treatment for gender dysphoria in some cases. It's certainly a lower risk option. I'm not flat out against the use of medication, but I've heard too many instances of it being used inappropriately.I am in favour of allowing people to decide what they do with their own bodies. Despite the tone of some of my posts, I'm as much against anti-trans as pro-trans activists. The problem is when someone has a mental health problem, they are in a vulnerable position and the health provider needs to do due diligence i.e. provide other forms of non-invasive treatment first. Unfortunately there are too many instances of this not happening. Ideologies such as gender identity are not helping matters. There's difference between encouraging acceptance of those who are different and playing identity politics.There are countless stories of those who regret transitioning and are suing healthcare providers for inadequate safeguards. There is not conclusive scientific evidence to support treatments such as hormones and surgery are associated with positive outcomes.Blaire White a transwoman who's concerned about this trend has an interest in detransitioners. It isn't just the lack of safeguards which is worrying but the abuse detransitioners receive from the trans community and lack of treatment and care to repair the damage.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 12, 2022, 09:27:24 pm
content: Quote from: T3sl4co1l on July 12, 2022, 02:45:59 pmGenes, and genes, and probably more of those genes with just a little bit of the upbringing.You have 50% correlation for twins, if one is gay, the other has 50% likelihood for it. Which is a lot larger than other siblings. Or the random samplings, which is 2-3%.Quote from: Zero999 on July 12, 2022, 08:52:08 pmIf we are already talking about statistics. As I recall there is a 40% suicide rate for people with gender dysphoria, and the same 40% for transgender people.Without jumping to conclusions, the data suggests that surgery and hormones don't always work, at least for a large number of these people.The real tragedy is that this is swept under the rug (forcefully with cancel culture) by the people that are the loudest to support this group. If you go to the doctor, and say "I feel like a woman" their answer is "That's OK, let me get my scissors and pills". They actually need help, by professionals, individually, and not just a canned reply.

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 12, 2022, 09:35:38 pm
content: Quote from: Zero999 on July 12, 2022, 08:52:08 pmNot saying it's a rule or anything. Or that people (esp. kids) should be pushed into anything. (Which goes for a hell of a lot broader things, like religion.) Just making something familiar and acceptable. Parents always say "you could be anything, you could be a plumber, you could be an electrician, you could be a priest, you could be a doctor..", well, the list grows. And there are multiple non-exclusive ways people can be, that they might not even know are options until they're made aware of them.QuoteWhy? A penis is just a growth of soft tissue. There are surgeries to enhance it. I forget if reductions have been done but probably.How is that different? Functional, you might complain? There is assistance for that. Maybe someone doesn't need that function anymore, at least on the same regularity you see fit. Why do you feel it necessary to project your preference on others?Anyway, it's not "chopped off", it's reconstructed. The clitoris, vulva, etc. are all descended from the same cell line as glans, scrotum, etc. in the male genitalia. They're remarkably similar structures once you realize this. And then it becomes obvious how they can be reconstructed, to remain (neurologically) functional even, and it's just a matter of careful plastic surgery to get a natural appearance.Reconstruction can be reversed, with significant difficulty, I would think; the corpus collosum and ligaments I think are mostly removed, so they'd need to be replaced with artificial or donor material. (Which again, is a mostly solved problem; they make pumps and bladders to treat refractory ED.) Not an easy surgery, not original level functionality, but something.Tim

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 12, 2022, 09:50:37 pm
content: Quote from: T3sl4co1l on July 12, 2022, 09:35:38 pmThere's a difference between encouraging a child to embark on a path with the potential to seriously damage their health in the long term and accepting they might be gay.QuoteYes I'm aware of gender reassignment surgeries. Call it reconstruction if you will, but if you regret it, then it's mutilation. Female genetical mutilation is outlawed in most western countries. Perhaps it should be allowed if the girl gives her consent? It's just soft tissue after all.

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 12, 2022, 10:46:02 pm
content: Mutilation implies involuntary, I would say, yes.Male genital mutilation is also very common, even in the west; fortunately, it's finally falling out of vogue.There are indeed people who do very strange things to their bodies. As adults, with consent. Often without medical oversight, at that; so, they get such modifications done at the piercing parlor rather than the doctor's office, and don't benefit from anesthesia. So it's also a pain tolerance thing. Split tongue (yikes), pierced labia (ouch), various kinds of implants, etc. I think there's some even with split dicks, which... not honestly sure if that's as in a real living thing or shock content (I mean, it's certainly the latter regardless), but... if you like it that way? I guess so?Oh yeah, random question: do you smoke? Do you know friends who smoke?Tim

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 12, 2022, 11:59:44 pm
content: Quote from: T3sl4co1l on July 12, 2022, 09:35:38 pmno there isnt. what you saw or read is temporary, killing some of the functionalities, risky and nasty hacks to get the illusion.Quote from: T3sl4co1l on July 12, 2022, 09:35:38 pmno, its a hack. no one can reconstruct cervix and reproductive system. you believe so probably because you've been told so by doctors. the hack needs constant maintenance from owner otherwise bad things grow inside.

author: fourfathom
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2022, 04:18:22 am
content: Quote from: Zero999 on July 12, 2022, 08:52:08 pmI happen to believe that the abortion laws should be left to the states, because (as our Supreme Court recently decided) our Constitution does not grant this authority to the federal government. The original Roe vs Wade ruling was a bad decision. The intent and effect were (in my opinion) praiseworthy, but the legal underpinnings were faulty. While I would hope that all states would enact reasonable laws and policies (but some obviously aren't), I am even more concerned about Federal overreach, which has gone astoundingly off the rails in the last few decades. Our Constitution means something and we (the USA) are in serious trouble in this regard.BTW, I am generally pro-choice.

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2022, 04:39:24 am
content: QuoteQuoteJust some of the statements made, and I thought I read some pointing out, about it being personal visions.But is that not what we all do. Preach, or advocate our own views, beliefs or visions. The problem lies in when we unite into groups with these same views, beliefs or visions and start to force them onto others. This can be seen throughout history. Just look at the crusades. "You convert to our beliefs? No, are you sure? No, you are dead"QuoteAnd it is indeed an issue for about anything in society. Not as extreme as during the crusades, but it, at times, does cost peoples lives.QuoteYou can extend this list with do you drink alcohol, do you use a lot of sugar, do you eat a lot of fat, etc.Being obese is also a big health risk, and maybe a bigger one then having reconstructive surgery. But talking about that is becoming more and more a taboo. I believe the percentage of obese people is running up to 60% by now. Other studies show that only 7% of the US population have healthy hearts. Did not read up on the latter to see what they mean with healthy hearts. I too have a heart "disorder" A complete right block, which is nothing to worry about.And one of the problems causing this is the fact that a healthy diet is more expensive. A bag of potato chips is cheaper and also easier to get than good vegetables.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2022, 06:36:34 am
content: Quote from: T3sl4co1l on July 12, 2022, 10:46:02 pmThis is a satire, right? How can you compare smoking to an operation, that removes the possibility of ever having children?Which is now done on minors, that are a few year old, despite their parent's lack of consent in Canada?

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2022, 08:27:53 am
content: Quote from: tszaboo on July 13, 2022, 06:36:34 amThe underlying topic is doing harm to your body. Smoking harms your body. Also second hand smoke is not good for you.

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2022, 08:36:18 am
content: But on a lighter note and slightly related to the original post here is some content of mineThe last big project on our build is laying a terrace with nature stone. A hard job even when you are not ill, but when your body only allows 3 hours of work at max it will take a lot of day's to get it done.We can't afford to have it done by a business and the guy who was willing to help for a reasonable sum of money nearly had his hand amputated due to an mrsa infection and is no longer able to do the work. It is what it is and this is after 5 day's of work. Done the prep work for the alignment, so hopefully it will go a bit quicker from now on.

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2022, 12:38:19 pm
content: Quote from: fourfathom on July 13, 2022, 04:18:22 amThe problem here is that your constitution doesn't make it very clear what thenatureof matters that ought to be ''reserved to the States respectively" is, in the ways that the constitutions of other federated republics do. In fact the definition is almost recursive - 'states rights' excluding things that have been delegated to the federation or that the federation has prohibited states from having. The logical thing would be for matters reserved to the individual states to have some essentially geographic significance and matters that one would naturally consider universal in nature (such as crimes against the person and human rights) to be federal matters as far as setting laws was concerned, and that's the way it's done in some, probably most, other federal republics. To someone from the rest of the world it's very odd to have the everyday criminal law (and others) change as one crosses a local political boundary.That vagueness, and lack of helpful unifying principles, has led to continuing battles between the states and federation over 'states rights' and made them into a political hot potato in a way, and over matters, that they don't seem to be in the rest of the world with a federal republic form or government. The idea that one could criminalise or decriminalise something by arguing over who has the power constitutionally to do so, rather than over the substantive merits of the putative criminal act seems crazy.So, your assertion that Roe v Wade was unconstitutional in nature is most certainly arguable as a point of law and is probably right (one would need a lifetime of studying US constitutional law to be certain on that). My point is that a law regarding basic human rights shouldn't have been a matter of constitutional law in the first place and most certainly, by its nature, ideally ought not to be settled on the basis of 'states rights'. That smacks of gaming the system to get the result some parties wanted rather than tackling the fundamental underlying issue.

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2022, 12:55:40 pm
content: Quote from: tszaboo on July 13, 2022, 06:36:34 amYou're either conflating gender assignment surgery in neonates born intersex of ambigious gender with elective gender assignment, or you are referring to a case that involves a 17 year old, and are asserting that a 17 year old (almost of the age to marry, take jobs, vote, get killed in the military [18, but 17 with parental consent], etc.) is "a few year old" and incapable of deciding for themselves whether they want to have children in the future or make any decisions that affect the rest of their life.

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2022, 01:25:21 pm
content: Quote from: fourfathom on July 13, 2022, 04:18:22 amLibertarian?If you claim to morally respect some action, but assign priority to the procedure used to obtain that action -- you don't have the morals you claim you do. Your morals are actually procedural.Tim

author: fourfathom
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2022, 02:32:14 pm
content: Quote from: Cerebus on July 13, 2022, 12:38:19 pmActually, our Constitution makes it very clear. The tenth amendment states:QuoteSo if it's not specifically there, the Feds don't have the power. If we want the Feds to have some new power then we are supposed to amend the Constitution (which is difficult but has still been done many times). I will admit that the scope of our federal government has grown well beyond my interpretation of the Constitution, for a number of reasons -- some good and some bad. In many cases the judicial interpretation has been driven by desired outcome rather than (IMO) an honest reading of the Constitution. A bit of a mess, really, but we're dealing with humans so I'm not really surprised.Quote from: T3sl4co1l on July 13, 2022, 01:25:21 pmI'm fairly libertarian, but I do try to be pragmatic. I believe that a classic Libertarian state, or a Randian "Atlas Shrugged" society would fail miserably in the current world. I like the principle but I fear the practice. So where does that leave me and my morals? First of all, I didn't say I morally respected the Roe vs Wade decision. I believe the resulting policy is reasonable, but I disapprove of the procedure used to achieve it. I see no inconsistency on my part.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2022, 06:03:08 pm
content: Quote from: Cerebus on July 13, 2022, 12:55:40 pmNo, it's like 14 for Canada, 4 for Scotland. Canada is passing a law, where the parent can go up to 5 year in prison if they interfere with the operation of their own child, that they are the guardian of. Because the state knows better.

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2022, 06:58:23 pm
content: Quote from: fourfathom on July 13, 2022, 02:32:14 pmThere are a whole slew of things that are not specifically mentioned in the constitution as federal powers (which seems to be the reading you are taking) which are nevertheless now federal matters. Thus the matters which are reserved to the states are rather malleable and rather poorly defined. If they weren't we wouldn't have the situation we have now, where the Supreme Court in Roe v Wade settled criminal law for the whole federation in 1973 and has now changed again. A clear, unambiguous dividing line between federal powers and states rights wouldn't leave a case hanging around for 50 years before it was overturned.But that's not the point I was making, the point is that the rationale for choosing the dividing line seems rather odd when compared to other federal republics, particularly the choice to make moral or criminal issues which are essentiallyuniversalin nature matters forlocallegislation. It is what it is, but seen from outside it seems a peculiar historical choice especially when contrasted with elsewhere (Germany for instance, where criminal law is essentially federal and state law is typically about local things).

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2022, 07:20:57 pm
content: Hey, the original topic was specifically aboutindividuals. We've once again drifted into politics, talking about what should be done in the larger scale.I sometimes mention that I really like individuals, but severely dislikepeople. Groups, cliques, tribes, ideologies .. all that seems to just cloud peoples mind when it comes to dealing with individuals on a daily basis. Like who you watch on Youtube, which news you read, or whether you cut off people just because they have an opinion you don't like.I believe it is better to be open-minded and very liberal in dealing with individual humans, but conservative culturally and in the larger scale policies.Which, funnily enough, is exactly the opposite of what is being pushed on us by the various social media.Thou shalt exclude the wrong-thinkers that do not belong to your tribe, but accept whatever inane policies anyone might come up with at the governance level.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2022, 04:13:39 am
content: Quote from: tszaboo on July 13, 2022, 06:03:08 pmi'm not sure totally how other country works, but a relative that lived in UK for 3 years for phd study told us that parents can get sued (jailed?) if they dont send their kids to school even for few days, we dont have such law and on some circumstances, that dont really make sense. parents can have more excuses and freedom to decide whats good to their children.. and yet we are the one that got the "conservative" label. we are raised with good islamic religion teaching, so if implemented correctly, everybody knows what to do accordingly. goverment trusts the parents, and parents know what to do best. thats why i think lots of people are missing the good stuffs because they saw and experienced bad things from so called religious people who actually not implementing religious teaching correctly... clashes do happen even among family when some members deviated from the book, becoming a trans or homo for example, and then the members who follow the book become abusive, they forgot about the golden rule mentioned in the book, they should only advice, not judge, let alone punish. god will be the ultimate and justice judge in the end everybody will get their fair share, this fact can easily get overlooked because of negative influences in everybody. everybody, religious or not can easily resort to "judge by the cover" if not give enough rational thought. you can debate about politics, rules and regulations until the sun die, this thing will never end because everybody think they are smart and big enough to think. otoh suppresion is one way to solve problem, the idea that "i can do whatever to my body" will create another problem anyway, imho. but then its up to your definition is it a problem? or not a problem?

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2022, 05:39:16 am
content: Quote from: Mechatrommer on July 14, 2022, 04:13:39 amThere you go, your believe is that someone needs education based on the Islam, which to me implies that you think your imam knows best. From this I take you also believe there is a god, which no one can proof is true, nor can it be proven that it is not true. I choose to belief there is none. Enough reason for lots of people to hate me.You are right with your point that a lot of people forsake the "true" intent within the book, being it the Koran or the bible. Both books are mans interpretation of things and the texts evolved over time. It takes careful reading and thinking to properly interpretate these texts.But earlier you wrote that the solution to a lot of problems is education. So therefore in most western countries there is compulsory education. Don't know about penalties for parents that don't send their kids to school, but here I would say that, yes to some extend the state knows best.The way education is given can be debated, and also what is taught can be debated. But it being mandatory to me is a good thing.Here in France it is possible to do homeschooling, but I don't know about any regulations surrounding that. (Edit: A problem I see with home schooling is the possible lack of socialization that comes from interaction with other children)And parents knowing best is very debatable. Take a look at the extreme forms of religion where children are forced into roles that might conflict with their feelings. These actions can scar a child for live. The same can be said for where parents are criminals who force their kids to take the same path through live.This is why nurture has an important role in the formative years of a child. And this is what governments should pay more attention to.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2022, 07:11:20 am
content: Quote from: pcprogrammer on July 14, 2022, 05:39:16 amno they are not evolved, human did it..esp on torah and bible. But some of the important aspects remains the same. you cant say that on qoran that its evolved.. the problem is you picked certain aspects of them that are unprovable and missing out the good parts.. you think we follow imams/priests blindly? Thats true because most people of faith are like that, but when reading the book carefully, it should not be like that.. thou follow god and your heart, not imams nor priests. How many christians follow the bible strictly? I would say none.. women should wear head cover, not eat pork, men should not dress like woman are all in there. Whats add insult to the pain are those false prophets and holy books out there like mormon etc.. in short you conclude based on oppositions opinions on religion and its cover based on people around you that implement it wrongly. i bet you havent read those books yourself to make judgement. Nobody hates you for not believing in god, if they understand religion correctly, it is us who got hated and banned for just simply mentioning god, religion or qoran.. so thats why i know you all missing the potentially good stuffs. Those all you've discussed here have been solved thousands of years ago, its people that want to reinvent the wheel (both religious or not) for the sake of feeling good and right. Ymmv.

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2022, 07:48:48 am
content: You did not get what I meant.Both books are translations from ancient languages and the texts have been revised over time. Like for the bible you have the old testament, and the new testament.I have read enough of the bible to form an educated opinion. Talked about the Koran with several Islamic people when I was young to also form an opinion. The "true" intent behind both books is good, but if we, as society, had not evolved and let go of some of the restrictive opinions brought into the books by man, and here I literally mean man, we would still be living in the dark ages of real oppression.And when you throw in arguments, you should also check them. Christians have long been allowed to eat pork. But that is besides the point.Starting a discussion about god will lead nowhere. Have had to many of those and they always end with "God moves in mysteries ways"And "follow your heart", that is what all the people, that you like to force back into your belief, want to do.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2022, 08:28:13 am
content: And where did you get quran was a bible translation? how do you explain the differences in quran that are not available in earlier text? Another human invention? where in bible pork is permitted? Just because another verse stated all meats are good? Logically speaking..clause a) pork is not good, clause b) all meats are good. How do you interpret? Clause b cancels A? That make they are contradicting! How about treat them as combination? All meats are good except pork? follow your heart with guidance. Without guidance you can do anything including bad things.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2022, 09:57:09 am
content: Quote from: tszaboo on July 13, 2022, 06:03:08 pmExactly.The problem is, this is being rolled out to minors. The legal age for drinking alcohol is 21 in the US, so how anyone there can argue children should be allowed to take drugs and have surgery with permanent effects is beyond belief.Even as far as adults are concerned, there still needs to be safeguards, which should also apply to cosmetic surgeries. I'm all in favour of allowing grown adults to do what they want with their own bodies. The state should not prohibit gender reassignment surgeries, hormones, cosmetic procedures or mandate vaccination. It has to be regulated through. The clinician performing the procedure/proscribing the medication has to have appropriate experience and training. The patient needs to give informed consent. Part of this should be a psychological assessment to ensure they're not being pressured into it, or are going to regret it later. Unfortunately there are too many instances of this not happening.Quote from: Nominal Animal on July 13, 2022, 07:20:57 pmThe trouble is the actions and opinions of individuals affect wider society.The main problem with social media is not people posting "misinformation" or "hate" but the way the algorithm tends to recommend similar content to what you've liked or viewed in the past, which reinforces your current point of view.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2022, 10:11:42 am
content: from my general view.. politicians, mass media or any other individuals or organizations that can affect larger population are not much different from imams or priests.. except admittedly based on human invented definitions or guidance to earthly matter. we can easily conclude if they are bad or good from what kind of population's behaviour/direction they are creating.Quote from: Zero999 on July 14, 2022, 09:57:09 amalgorithm is not an excuse, we have google and the hand typing what we want to find. the problem is we dont want to find what we dont want to find, due to some doctrination or indoctination embedded into us. thats what this thread is about... missing the good parts.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 14, 2022, 10:26:57 am
content: Quote from: Mechatrommer on July 14, 2022, 10:11:42 amYou're wrong here. The problem with google is that for different people who type the same thing it will show different results depending on what it "thinks" you should prefer. And good luck getting results which are not extremely biased in one way or another when it comes to anything politics related.

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2022, 10:41:57 am
content: Louis Rossmann dropped this nugget.I know Reddit is cancer, but apparently it's old fashioned (!) to be nice to one another in a relationship. These young kids think they've invented what is good old fashioned marital bickering. Fight me.

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2022, 10:53:22 am
content: Quote from: Mechatrommer on July 14, 2022, 08:28:13 amI would say "learn to read". I did not say that the Koran is a translation of the bible. I stated that the Koran is a translation of earlier Koran written in an ancient language, And that the bible is a translation of earlier bible written in an ancient language.And over time both have changed. Only when you have access to the earliest exemplar and are able to understand the ancient language will you be able to tell if the translations are correct and nothing has changed, but as with so many stories they change over time when they are rewritten.It is your provocative to live to the letter of the Koran, but you should not try to enforce it onto others. Individuality is what we are talking about, and are trying to reach consensus about what is common sense.What you are writing is propagating hate onto the different.Quote from: Mechatrommer on July 12, 2022, 07:14:18 pmI would say "ding ding ding we have a winner of the homophobic of the year award"

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2022, 11:48:27 am
content: Quote from: Zero999 on July 14, 2022, 09:57:09 amPrecisely. Keep the minors out of this.As to how anyone can argue the obvious, this is tactic of changing society from the ground up. Think about it: how quickly it came from allowing same sex marriage*to gender reassignment of minors, bending elementary school curriculum, state overreach over parent's decisions, opportunist scumbags infiltrated in teenager girl's environments, etc. All were introduced step by step initially for adults and surreptitiously pushed onto minors without pushback for a while, as the ones that alerted and opposed this were one by one tossed out of the room with screeching shaming and bully tactics. Fortunately there is change in the horizon against the excesses, but it will take time until passion is taken out and reason sets in.Quote from: Zero999 on July 14, 2022, 09:57:09 amIndeed. Just like any medical procedure that has lifelong consequences (and is not life threatening), the decision must be taken with a professional approach to give time for the individual to properly reflect over all pros/cons.*Before someone starts to bend my words, I personally don't agree with same sex marriage but don't think the state has any saying in prohibiting this between consenting adults.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2022, 12:38:39 pm
content: Quote from: pcprogrammer on July 14, 2022, 10:53:22 amIt really isn't worth trying to debate religion, using logic or common sense. It won't get you anywhere!QuoteI would say that don't like to see any sexual act which doesn't turn me on. I saw a straight couple, with their bodies covered in ugly tattoos and piercings all over each other a few weeks ago and thought yuck.Quote from: rsjsouza on July 14, 2022, 11:48:27 amMy view has shifted on gender reassignment of minors. I was originally in favour of puberty blockers, but have changed by view. The idea of postponing puberty until the individual is old enough to consent to more interventions sounded like a good idea, because someone with gender dysphoria might find their body developing into the sex which doesn't match their psychological gender stressful. I changed my view when I realised: changes which occur during puberty directly affects the person's psychological development and puberty blockers retard it, the long term effects are unknown, many children with gender dysphoria grow out of it on their own, some gender reassignment surgeries require the person to have gone through puberty to some degree and there are activists who are encouraging children to believe they're trans, when they're probably not.QuoteI have mixed views on the matter. I don't like words being redefined in the sense of political correctness, but lovers should have the right to have a formal, legally recognised relationship, irrespective of whether they're the same sex, or not. Ideally, the state should keep out of marriage and only civil unions, be they hetero or homosexual recognised in law, with marriage being purely religious. Unfortunately the state has been involved with marriage, ever since the state's existence, so there's no alternative, but to allow marriage, whether it be same sex, or opposite sex. It hasn't cost the government anything and has appeared to please more people, than it's upset, so it makes sense.I'm uneasy about two men adopting a child. Does that make me homophobic? Perhaps not, because I don't feel the same sense of anxiety about two women adopting a child. I suppose I just think children are safer with women, than men.

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2022, 01:10:25 pm
content: Quote from: Zero999 on July 14, 2022, 12:38:39 pmI agree (See what I wrote earlier about how discussing god mostly ends), and at first I did not wanted to post my post, but he keeps on coming.Quote from: Zero999 on July 14, 2022, 12:38:39 pmI agree to that too. And again I did not wanted to post what I did, but to me, his statement makes me believe he is homophobic.Quote from: Zero999 on July 14, 2022, 12:38:39 pmFor me marriage in a way is a "foolish" concept, but probably conceived from the idea of some security in live and maybe also from religion as some form of control. In legislation it is used to differentiate between people just living together or living together as a married couple. The latter to secure rights when children are involved, etc. Sure nowadays you can get more or less the same status without marriage, like in France with a Pact, but that is, for as far as I know not recognized by church.The only reason my wife and I got married after being together for 17 years was because of the holiday house we bought in France. Without being married and one of us dying, it would cost the remaining partner 60% of the dead partners share in the real estate. We did it late afternoon in the town hall with members of the council as witnesses.Quote from: Zero999 on July 14, 2022, 12:38:39 pmDon't think so. It is just a feeling that man are less trust worthy. And statistics might proof you right?

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2022, 02:47:55 pm
content: Quote from: pcprogrammer on July 14, 2022, 10:53:22 ameither way, you still got it wrong. Koran originated in arab by illiterate arabian guy.. granted there are different arab accents and tribes, but they are still arab. And arab language hasnt change until today.. much like uk english, Usa and australia, different accents but easily understood by other continent..this indicates your weak understanding about the origin of it.. otherwise you need to present proof of what 'ancient arab' you are talking about... otoh if you think i'm into god discussion then you are quite wrong there.. i learnt a fair amount of time here that its useless to talk to people who dont want to listen to something that neither you or me can prove. Otoh regarding homophobic, well thats up to your definition and judgement.. i meant to say, when they do the disgusting act publicly. The one guy that aproached me to invite to his house, i said no politely, instead of sudden disgust by just knowing he's a homo.. i feel less disgusted or not at all if women kissing each other compared to men doing it, its kind of you can feel it on your own mouth.Quote from: wraper on July 14, 2022, 10:26:57 amthen make the algorithm change how it think about you by keep typing the same keyword in different phrases. it might think you are interested in different thing now

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2022, 03:26:33 pm
content: Quote from: pcprogrammer on July 14, 2022, 01:10:25 pmMarriageas we now know itevolved almost entirely because of issues of determining property rights. Marriage with formal legal recognition of a formal marriage ceremony (whether religious or civil) is a relatively recent invention. Before circa 17th century in England most people didn't go through any formal recognition of marriage, expect for the nobility and gentry who did so to protect property rights, descents of titles and the like. In England marriage wasn't codified in statute law before the Marriage Act of 1753 and that itself was a reaction to 'secret' marriages that muddied the lines of inheritance. Prior to the Marriage Act all that was needed in common or canon law was "words of present consent" to create a legally recognised marriage. As time went on it became more and more usual for 'commoners' to undergo formal marriage until we get to today's situation where it is regarded as universal and we differentiate between people who are married and those who simply have chosen to live together. Most people make the mistake of assuming that "It's always been like that." when in fact it hasn't.

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2022, 03:28:36 pm
content: Quote from: Mechatrommer on July 14, 2022, 02:47:55 pmSorry here you are right. I should have followed my own criticism and do research before writing.But what I found tells me that to be able to read the official Koran I would have to learn classical Arabic.What I found on English and Dutch Wikipedia entries tells me that translations are not acknowledged as authoritative and should be based on exegesis to convey the proper message.QuoteI will leave it at that.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2022, 04:35:59 pm
content: Quote from: pcprogrammer on July 14, 2022, 01:10:25 pmjust to name a few...https://listverse.com/2014/05/22/10-incendiary-facts-about-incest/it is the classical, easiest and cheapest way to trace biological relationship/parents... just imagine if there was no marriage back then, how do you want to make sure that your "sex partner" is not your biological sister? or even mother? it was the man made procedures that came recently, legalities paperwork ceremony and thousands of dollars etc that lead you to make such conclusion. we believe its started since the day of adam and eve... in its simplistic form, its an oath between 2 people of opposite sex to get together and take care each other and their kids. to make it stronger, parents or guardians must be present to witness the oath, and later announced to other family members and community so other man wont intrude to the "institution". and thats it, no need thousands of dollars on nonsense.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2022, 07:18:21 pm
content: Quote from: pcprogrammer on July 05, 2022, 04:33:00 pmOne could argue that they are the same thing. Religion was the first form of government, it makes sense when you consider a person isn't too threatening, but if that person can convince people that they speak for a powerful supernatural being suddenly that person has a lot more power.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2022, 07:27:28 pm
content: Quote from: Zero999 on July 12, 2022, 09:50:37 pmThis is something that makes absolutely no sense to me. If I woke up tomorrow in a woman's body I'm sure it would feel strange for a while, but I'm also quite sure that I would get used to it and I would much rather have a fully formed and unmodified body that did not match the gender I felt like than a mutilated body that superficially resembled my preferred gender to some degree. I have nothing against trans people, if they are adults they are free to live their live any way they wish and I won't treat them badly for it, but I do think it is a mental illness, and I think the reason that the suicide rate is so high is not because they are treated poorly by society but because they are mentally ill, and the desire to change their gender just one of the symptoms of the underlying illness. It's unfortunate that it feels dangerous to even discuss this.

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2022, 08:43:02 pm
content: Quote from: Zero999 on July 14, 2022, 09:57:09 amTruly so. Which means that it is even more important to occasionallydeliberatelyseek out differing points of view, and to try and avoid such recommendations!This is also why I never log in to Youtube. It does mean I cannot comment there, but at least every time I close my browser and reopen it, I get a completely new "fresh" start. The Youtubers I regularly follow (EEVblog, Cutting Edge Engineering, AvE, BigClive, etc.) are in my bookmarks (more specifically, their video upload lists are), and for everything else, I use the (ridiculously bad and fuzzy) search engine. It is a deliberate attempt to avoid being affected by the recommendation algorithms.

author: KaneTW
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2022, 11:14:44 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on July 14, 2022, 07:27:28 pmI agree. Gender dysphoria is kind of incomprehensible to me, and I think surgeries are just masking some other underlying issue. People are free to do to their bodies whatever they want, it just won't solve the issue.Personally I think this detachment from gender should be the norm, and deviations (to either side, i.e. overly focusing on your gender identity or gender dysphoria) are aberrations. I think this is called "postgenderism"?

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2022, 12:26:53 am
content: Quote from: KaneTW on July 14, 2022, 11:14:44 pmI always thought it was called "common sense".(I'm not kidding. In an earlier thread on the topic, I explained in detail how I consider such things as details belonging to the person, as opposed to things defining that person. I often miss such details, and it bothers me none – until they get annoyed that I somehow was nasty/unfriendly/whatever bynotacknowledging that detail of their person.)

author: fourfathom
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2022, 01:29:04 am
content: Quote from: Nominal Animal on July 15, 2022, 12:26:53 amA young woman who is a friend of the family is married to a biological male who considers themself (I'm using their preferred pronoun here) a female lesbian. Looking at this person you would think you were seeing a big hairy guy (full beard) wearing a dress. I don't know how the young woman views herself. They do have a child, I believe conceived the old-fashioned way. But whatever you do, don't call the biological male a "him"! Things are getting weirder and weirder.

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2022, 02:06:36 am
content: I've been waiting for years whether they manage to invent new pronouns in Finnish, too.In spoken Finnish, everything in third person is an 'it'. Doesn't matter if it is animate, inanimate, a person, male, female, or whatever else. In written Finnish, there is separate third person pronoun for people as there is for other things, but even that has always been a fuzzy line when something with a name becomes important enough. (Not a recent thing either; Finns used to believe in natural spirits and other such beings with more or less human-like characteristics and names, and they were referred to by the person pronoun as well.)Me, I like 'it'. Easier. Reminds me that the value of a thing (to me) is not intrinsic, but in how it interacts. Including things like art and mementoes, that don't interact actively, but do cause reactions in some people. You know, like the favourite toy of an already passed loved pet. Life is fleeting, and too precious to be wasted.

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2022, 03:48:48 am
content: Quote from: james_s on July 14, 2022, 07:27:28 pmThe whole issue with this is that we as society run on what is called "normal" and everything that deviates from it is "abnormal" and is often put in the box "mental illness".You say you are quite sure that you would get used to it being in a not your born with body, but you can't know this for sure. But if it happened you will at least have a frame of reverence of what your "normal" born with body was. The human psyche is very complex and for a "normal" person it is very difficult to understand what goes on in the mind of a "different" person. The easiest way to deal with it is label it and be done with it.There is this saying "if it ain't broken, don't fix it" but as society we feel that the "different" are broken and need to be fixed. I guess a person with gender dysphoria their self feel broken and want to be fixed. One can argue that the way to go is mental treatment or that corrective surgery is, or both are needed. Common sense would dictate that the patient is the one to decide here, but the patient needs to be properly informed as far as possible. (This is, for instance, the guidance Zero999 brought to the table) A homosexual on the other hand is fine with who/what he/she is, but we as society see them as broken and therefore they need to be fixed. (Not my opinion)Also very important is that a possible financial motivation is removed. I have read and watched interviews/documentaries way back about transgenders being denied surgery by the proper organizations, often revert to the morally diminished circuit of illegal surgery and pay a lot of money to get it done. Don't know if this is true, but if so it should be dealt with. Not by more laws on forbidding this, but by improving the proper channels.

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2022, 04:26:07 am
content: Quote from: pcprogrammer on July 15, 2022, 03:48:48 amI think this is just the same tribalization going on.Here, about a third of university students require a bit of help from student health mental services, because of the stress and such. "Mental illness" itself isn't any different from say having a compound fracture: in ages past it might have meant that you were out of hope, but we can do better now. And no, I'm not talking about "just eat this pill and you'll be fine"; I mean things like therapy, which should be considered the same as physical therapy after a serious injury.The proper idea is not to make you feel better, but to make you strong enough to carry whatever burden you have.In some strange way, it is this last sentence that seems to stick in peoples minds as somehow offensive, even though it is ultimately liberating: you are, whatever and however you are, already good enough: all you need is some strength to keep yourself healthy, and perhaps interact in a more worthwhile manner with others.Instead, people are increasingly looking toward having their own tribe, and rejecting –– even literally fighting against –– the "others".Just consider what "normal" typically means: "like people in my tribe", or "like the people who rejected me from their tribe".

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2022, 07:41:55 am
content: Quote from: pcprogrammer on July 15, 2022, 03:48:48 amI did chuckle when I read James' comment about turning into a woman. If he's straight and has a partner, it wouldn't be much fun for her. She'd probably leave him and he'd have to find a lesbian, assuming it doesn't change the sex his or her attraction. If he's gay and single, it would work in his favour, as he could get with a straight man.I believe the definition of a mental illness is something which negatively psychologically affects the person's quality of life, or cause them to exhibit behaviour which presents a risk to themselves or others.I don't buy into the argument those with gender dysphoria commit suicide purely because of society's prejudice against them. I've read studies which show this, but I doubt someone who doesn't have a mental illness consider suicide, when subject to the same level of prejudice. It would be interesting to see data of suicide rates in blacks during Jim Crow times, to see what affect true oppression and prejudice has on the suicide rate of a group, but I doubt it would be reliable if it exists.When I suffered from an eating disorder anorexia nervosa, I used to get all sorts of comments about how thin I was, that I had to eat more, that I have aids, etc. These comments really did upset me and had a truly negative impact on my well-being. Looking back, I know full well it was my fragile state of mind, which made the comments hurt, more than anything else. I'm lean at the moment, but not sickly thin and I do get the odd skinny comment, but it doesn't bother me. Incidentally anorexia has a much higher fatality rate, than gender dysphoria and it's mostly due to suicide, rather than starvation. I know an eating disorder isn't the same as gender dysphoria, but it does have a commonality: the with feeling uncomfortable in one's own body.Quote from: Nominal Animal on July 15, 2022, 04:26:07 amTrue.Again identity politics is not helping, especially the notion of microagressions which is just gaslighting. Society needs to be more accepting, but part of the treatment should be learning to deal with negative comments, prejudice and accept that your body is never going to be truly the sex you want it to be, irrespective of hormones and surgery. Part of my recovery was dealing with negative comments.

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2022, 12:59:19 pm
content: Quote from: Zero999 on July 15, 2022, 07:41:55 amSounds right to me.Quote from: Zero999 on July 15, 2022, 07:41:55 amI think it depends on how severe the pestering is. Humans can be very cruel and psychologically and physically mistreat someone to the extend that the person in question takes his own life, just to be freed from it. Don't have percentages here. And don't think it is just adults, children can be very cruel too.Quote from: Zero999 on July 15, 2022, 07:41:55 amGlad that you where able to overcome it.I can somewhat relate with you here. I did not suffer from anorexia nervosa, but from age 17 to ~45 I weight 59 kilo and I'm 1m81 tall. I have also heard the same comments many times. But I could eat what I wanted and did not gain weight. After age 45 I started to gain some weight to about 69 kilo, but I started to feel uncomfortable. That was also around the time I started to notice some symptoms like shortness of breath and loosing strength. I went to a cardiologist to have it checked out. There is a history of heart disease in my family. The cardiologist could not find anything wrong (except for a total block right in the electrocardiogram) and had me do a stress test, after which he gave the advice to start walking on a daily basis. This we did, and I also changed my diet. Quit drinking coca cola (~2L per day), stopped eating these mini chocolate bars, etc. Now I weigh 63 kilo, and still people tell me I'm to thin.But the symptoms did not go away and only got worse and others came up, like pain in the knees, back pain, headaches. X-rays, a cat-scan and a MRI revealed nothing. Blood tests showed nothing out of the ordinary. Very frustrating. Even the wife though I was faking to no longer have to work on the build. Eventually in 2018 I visited a rheumatologist and he concluded "chronic fatigue syndrome" with the emphasis on fibromyalgia.He prescribed antidepressants in a low dosage. It would make me sleep better. I never had problems sleeping, but he. In the beginning it looked liked it was helping, but after 8 or 9 months it returned to what it was before, even after upping the dosage as advised by the doctor. Then I tried magnesium-oil with the same results. Then I tried CBD oil. Went up to the highest recommended dosage, but it did nothing for me. Found information about a new study about it possibly being an imbalance between GABA and glutamate. Had a blood test done, which showed normal levels, but later learned it concerns the imbalance in the brain and not the blood, but the tests for this are not yet availableTried GABA supplements anyway, but again no dice.So I have to learn to live with it. Not easy, but I'm getting there.Quote from: Nominal Animal on July 15, 2022, 04:26:07 amNowadays the danger of stress is much more known, and not so much looked upon as back in the day.I had a "burn out" in 1990 at age ~27. Caused by stress. I lived in Delft in a house I was renovating, worked in Amsterdam and in the beginning also went to evening school in Den Haag. Was not good at saying "no" when asked if I could do extra work, so there where times I worked day and night. Being a perfectionist does not help. So at some point in time I was on my way to work, sitting in a train, and something snapped. Got out of the train in Leiden, went to the other track and returned home. Took me almost a year to recover, and was advised to go back to work (Same place as before). Within a year I was near the same point, so I quit. Luckily I received unemployment payment. This time it took two and a half year to get back on track and start my own "company". Did that for 17 years and earned enough money to quit the rat race. And here I'm 10 years further down the line.I was in luck that the authorities did not make it difficult, but there was no referral to a psychologist. Just my GP who advised me to take up a sport and follow a healthy diet.Quote from: Zero999 on July 15, 2022, 07:41:55 amYes learning to better deal with all the shit society throws at you is best, because lets face it society won't change, at least not so rapid. And with the rise of the internet hate and misinformation is spread much easier.Watched this one this morning. It is about the "flat earthers" and near the end he tells about how that is splitting up in two groups that start to hate each other. Why do people obsess about this. Does it really matter if it is a disc or a sphere? Does it influence your way of living?

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 15, 2022, 03:51:53 pm
content: Quote from: pcprogrammer on July 15, 2022, 03:48:48 amThe normal at minimum is what passes the genes further. Otherwise there would be no humanity as it would go extinct. Any deviation from that IMHO should be accepted with understanding and no hate but in no way it should be praised and celebrated as something good. Or even forced on unsuspecting children by activist teachers which is just evil. My opinion is that anyone is free to sleep with whoever they want if they are above legal age but don't make it public and keep me out of that please. I don't want to know anything about your sexual preferences and hate any agenda forced on me.A few other words about "normal". Public opinion used to keep people in check, if they do something weird, society would let them know about it. Thus keeping normalcy. It had it's downsides of course as who decides what is normal? These days weirdness is celebrated. People go further and further in their weird ideas and perversion supported by their echo chambers. But the rest of society stays silent because hurt feelings are supposed to be more important than reality. Overtone window shifts and now who says anything against perversion is seen as some kind of monster instead of a normal human being.The other thing is that most of underage people would simply grow out of their gender dysphoria or whatever weird ideas they had in a few years, especially with mental support. But hell no, their life shall be destroyed as surrounding pushes them further and further into their delusion. Then damage is already done and there is no way back.

author: Kim Christensen
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2022, 04:02:46 pm
content: Quote from: fourfathom on July 15, 2022, 01:29:04 amAre you sure he's not a Scottish Highlander?

author: Kim Christensen
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2022, 04:41:39 pm
content: Quote from: pcprogrammer on July 15, 2022, 12:59:19 pmNo, flat vs sphere doesn't matter to most people. It would if you were a freighter captain or an airline pilot.But facts matter even if they don't effect you directly. Especially stuff like this because once you go down that rabbit hole, it's very difficult to get out. Down there, you will encounter evenmorefalsehoods thatwilleffect your life.

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2022, 05:33:32 pm
content: Quote from: Kim Christensen on July 15, 2022, 04:41:39 pmSailors of the high seas and the captains of the wings know the truthAnd for them it would sure make a difference, disc or sphere.Quote from: Kim Christensen on July 15, 2022, 04:41:39 pmA while back in this thread "science" and more or less "facts" passed the scene. Science very well explained by Nominal Animal here:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/life-advice-dont-dismiss-or-lose-respect-for-people/msg4294723/#msg4294723For "facts" one can opt the same principle. It is all man made, so what is true and what is false? When there is a majority in consensus about something, that becomes truth. But as with everything common sense is important to apply to all of this.Just some quotes of the internet.QuoteAnd only when you let it something can effect your life.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2022, 05:37:26 pm
content: Quote from: Zero999 on July 15, 2022, 07:41:55 amI think we can ignore such details in this hypothetical situation as I am quite confident that I'm not suddenly going to wake up in a different body, and finding a different more suitable partner is not an impossible task, I've had to do so several times throughout my adult life. I'm a straight male, although being a female lesbian seems like it would be tolerable. I actually know at least one person who has changed gender, at least in as far as it is possible to actually do so, whilst keeping the same partner they had previously. Seems odd to me but if it works for then I'm not going to judge. It's a simple fact though that with current technology we have at our disposal, it is just not possible to truly change one's gender. With great effort, hormones and highly invasive surgeries it is possible to make a person resemble the opposite gender to some degree, but they're never going to actually be that gender. It's a well known fact that the vast majority of people both hetero and homosexual are not interested in dating a trans person. That group has the smallest available pool of potential partners.

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2022, 05:58:43 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on July 15, 2022, 05:37:26 pmOnly in the moviesLike "The Switch" from 1991.https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0103016/

author: fourfathom
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2022, 06:37:44 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on July 15, 2022, 03:51:53 pmThis is an overly-simple criterion. We have many examples of people who have helped humanity prosper without themselves actually reproducing. Their sexual orientation was secondary to their other positive attributes. Yes, humanity does need a critical mass of hetero-normal people in order to survive, but perhaps that's not the whole story?

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2022, 06:47:54 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on July 15, 2022, 03:51:53 pmI agree. And as to homosexuality, it does occur in nature in various patterns, so it would be completely incorrect to call it "unnatural".If we look at pre-urban, pre-agrarian human societies, where each living contributing human being was important, there is typically at least a couple of available roles: they weren't excluded, because the society could not afford to. Agriculture brought a change to that.(Even in agricultural societies there tends to be some roles, usually related to tending to other people as opposed to taking care of their own offspring.)There are innumerable "natural" roles for a human to adopt/assume/own/have. The family ones are very important for there to be a next generation and for that generation to be healthy and capable, which is why it is also natural to have an emphasis on such roles. It is also easy to see why roles completely separated from that are observed as "immoral" or "wrong" or "dangerous to the society", especially to those deep in a family role. In the past, humans died much, much more often and much, much younger, so morals and attitudes will take time to adjust.One must remember that humans are not really that rational; a lot of our behaviour is instinctual and learned in childhood. It may be completely unreasonable to demand humans well into their adulthood to reject those and adopt new ones. Changes do take their time.Quote from: wraper on July 15, 2022, 03:51:53 pmYes, because it is part of human evolution to seek those possible roles. More than our intelligence, it is our adaptability that made us so successful as a species. It is not a coincidence that these problems occur soon after puberty, on the brink of adulthood.You could thus say that such problems are also natural, except that nature is quite cruel here: in the past, those that did not find a suitable role, either died or became outlaws, murderers, raiders, and so on. We now have better options. It does not really matter much anymorewhichrole one finds for oneself, as long as that choice supports their life as a human being, and interactions with other people.But it does not mean that you get to decide to be an attack helicopter that everyone must address with your serial number. Interaction is two-way, mutual, and nobody is entitled to "respect": it isearnedby respecting others. This is calledfairness, and it is a concept very, very deep in humans. It is actually not even a human trait, as it has been clearly observed in other primate and mammal species as well.

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2022, 07:15:21 pm
content: Quote from: Nominal Animal on July 15, 2022, 06:47:54 pmSuccessful is debatable. Yes the human species did accomplish a lot, but in the process it is also responsible for a lot of damage.Time will tell what this will bring the human species.Take for instance "fracking". In our pursuit of getting the last drop of oil or bubble of gas from the earth we inject chemicals to get it done. With this we ignore the risk of contaminating ground water planes that can spread the poison into the rest of nature. Eventually all this success might well be our downfall.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2022, 07:26:54 pm
content: Quote from: Nominal Animal on July 15, 2022, 04:26:07 amI fully agree with this.Just making you feel better without helping you get stronger just further weakens you.Not only that, but it makes you forever dependent on others - as you'll need this constant outside help for feeling better - rather than making you independent.Beyond one's particular opinions on what is or is not "normal", which will be at least partly subjective, this part is what concerns me the most.The current trend (which is now commonly called "wokism") is unfortunately trying to make a victim out of everyone who has a difficulty of any kind. Being victimized is never going to help anyone, and IMO, victimizing others is a sneaky way, behind the surface of looking like the nice person, of making others dependent on you. It's even one of the "tools" that is commonly seen in perverse narcissistic people.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2022, 09:06:38 pm
content: Quote from: pcprogrammer on July 15, 2022, 07:15:21 pmThe human race will eventually vanish, nothing lasts forever, the planet will be fine though and will very likely host other life forms into the distant future, although eventually the sun will burn out and the earth will die. Nothing lasts forever, but I would certainly argue that the human race has already been a success, it has existed for many thousands of years and continues to expand.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2022, 09:42:38 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on July 15, 2022, 09:06:38 pmIt's hard to judge success or not. It's all relative. "Humanoid" species have been there for at least a million years AFAIK. They have kept evolving and hybriding. Humans as we are now have been more or less in their current form (while still evolving a bit) for a couple tens of thousands of years. That's very little on a geological scale. Many species currently on Earth are much older than we are, in a similar form as well (so that we can classify them as the same species.)We may give birth to new species, or our "branch" may also end up disappearing altogether.Of course the "success" of our own species matters to us, but I don't know if it really matters in the grand scheme of things, as far as "life" is concerned. As long as life keeps reproducing in various forms, life is successful.

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2022, 10:13:55 pm
content: Quote from: pcprogrammer on July 15, 2022, 07:15:21 pmYes. I specifically meant as a biological species, i.e. the niches the species is occupying, the biomes humans can thrive in (from hottest deserts to coldest Siberia), the foods humans can consume (just about anything), and so on.I definitely didn't mean to imply "successful" in any positive sense; just in the strict biological sense as a species.

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2022, 02:38:47 am
content: Quote from: fourfathom on July 15, 2022, 06:37:44 pmThere's the popular idea that man can exist in a vacuum, individual; perhaps subsisting at best; but, in the fullest sense: free. Hobbes' "state of nature".But we have direct evidence, from all related fields -- neurology, psychology, sociology, archaeology, etc. -- that such a state is utterly constructed, imagined.Or if such a state did exist, it was on the order of, I don't know, 30 million years ago or more -- before our so very distant ancestors formed social groups in the first place.Since then, survival of the species has always been tied to survival of the group. And neurological and psychological evidence shows humans have the exceptional capacity to understand the relationships between members of a group up to around 150 members (Dunbar's number), compared to 10-30 for closely related primates. (Come to think of it, I haven't heard how this number relates to the size of other social mammals, especially herding animals -- surely they must have some beef with each other past some critical size -- then again, they survive under a different dynamic, and probably they have a different fear/friend response to in/out-group individuals as a result. A farmer/rancher/shepherd would probably find the answer to this very obvious, but alas, one I am not.)So the "state of nature" for humans, over the last couple million years that have most closely fine-tuned our evolution, has likely been as a superorganism consisting of increasingly many individuals, from a similar scale as our relatives (~10s), up to the ~150 we are at now (which is evidently about the critical mass to kick off agriculture and industrial revolution... assuming we could ever show causality from this property, heh).And the survival of a superorganism is a very different thing from the survival of an individual. If the group is largely related*, then it doesn't much matter, genetically speaking, who dies, nor who passes on their DNA.*Not like THAT, of course I mean in contrast to neighboring villages; each one which might consist of many extended families, who are more closely related to each other, on average, than to their neighbors. But also not exclusive, as mixing and matching is also a necessary part of a healthy species. Whether by voluntary action (free exchange between villages), coerced (arranged weddings, strategic agreements?) or forced (rape, war raids taking prisoners, etc.). Evolution sadly doesn't mind any such distinctions.And so we can easily explain -- I think -- "deviant" traits. Mind, this doesn't explain homosexualityper se-- but it is nonetheless sufficient to debunk a position based on reproductive fitness.Simply put: since the survival of a given individual is less important, while the survival of the group is paramount, then there is plenty of space for roles which help the group, without contributing to its reproduction.Indeed, too much reproduction would be a big survival issue for a group. Reproductive control has always been an aspect of humanity, whether through use of natural medicines (contraceptives, abortifacients), or cold brutal infanticide. Harsh realities for individuals, but necessities of group survival.And it's not like we have to go far to see living examples of such contributions. Like, can it get any more obvious -- explain old people! How can it be, that humans can live beyond childbearing age? Why don't they keel over and die when their gonads stop? (This obviously makes a stronger argument concerning women, but old men also experience reduced fertility.) Clearly, there are roles, required for group survival, that do not involve directly bearing children; else why waste good food on useless old people? Evolution found a use.In fact, I'd be willing to bet, if you could survey such groups -- rather hard to do archaeologically, but there are few surviving isolated/uncontacted hunter-gatherer tribes, so, theoretically speaking, anyway -- and find that there is a negative correlation between homosexual population, and life expectancy. That is, if survival in the environment is more difficult, then there will be fewer old people, and a greater need for infertile people -- those not preoccupied with raising children.And it won't be a strong correlation, but modest: there are some roles that young/adult bodies can serve, that old people simply can't; and some roles that both can. It's the exclusive roles which motivate this argument.Notice the mechanism of this argument. It's not that births magically adjust themselves to conditions; well, maybe stress during pregnancy plays a role, that's plausible I suppose -- however, we'd have data on that today as well (which, I wonder if that particular correlation has been studied? something to look into..). It's that society itself changes, adapts, over many generations -- and along with it, the population balance, and the norms -- whether more or less "deviant" behavior is tolerated or accepted.Mind, it's not even that a particular society need adapt itself in these ways -- as long as there's a reasonable "breeding population" of the superorganisms themselves -- the groups/villages -- selection pressures will force them, slowly but surely, either to change, to adopt norms of more successful neighboring groups, or to die -- perhaps outright, but perhaps more likely by fragmentation (individuals migrate to neighbors). Mind also, warfare plays a role here, as otherwise-healthy villages are always testing each other, sometimes in friendly sport, but also sometimes in deadly combat. If there is no environmental pressure, humans will find a way to create their own... go figure.In contrast, where we are today: babies are, for the large part, wanted and loved, and infant mortality is at all-time lows. So we're getting the unfiltered natural occurrence that humanity ultimately evolved to (from the last 100kyr or so), without the reproductive and societal pressures associated with group survival. And as we destigmatize these formerly "deviant" traits, we're finding that, evidently the natural occurrence rate is around 15%.And, mind, maybe (probably?) homosexualityper sehas nothing to do with it; that really just serves here as a proxy for individuals who are less fertile, by any reason, whether biologically or psychologically. Or maybe there are still other factors that would support this mechanism, that don't need to relate to I don't know, I'm not a demographer, or any of these other things. I'm just putting ideas together.And we could still come up with explanations for homosexuality (or related traits), over other more direct traits. For example, if a group suffers from very low fertility, say in some very rough years (drought? poisoning? war?), more individuals can be pressured into reproduction, improving survival of the group; those individuals represent a reserve of reproductive capacity, that isn't normally active. Whereas some kind of congenital infertility, say, would supply the same bodies, but not offer such an emergency capacity.[And, in case you were wondering, I use sex here, not gender, i.e., who today we might call AMAB/AWAB. Much as I'd like to, it's impossible to be culturally sensitive to imagined members of prehistoric groups, after all.]----As for applying similar arguments today -- well, you're relatively welcome to pick and choose what your own personal morality is, these days, but the direct equivalent to prehistoric evolution would seem to be, the fitness of the whole Earth -- given how interconnected we are these days. Thus, the highest level of optimization seems to be the world economy, and we can attach some variety of utilitarianism to that -- whether it be by raw capitalist dollar value, or including some degree of constituent preference in there as well (rule utilitarianism, etc.).Interestingly, the world seems to be made up, recursively, of superorganisms in turn. While the success of the individual, rewards success to the group, and in turn, the neighborhood, city, state, country, and world economy; in the same way that the survival of a superorganism doesn't necessarily depend on survival of any given individual, so too, we have the case that individuals, groups, neighborhoods, cities, states or countries, can come and go in search of greater global fitness. And, indeed, that is the observation; often through exceedingly, unprecedentedly violent means, at that... death of a state (or, most levels of superorganism, really) being better known as genocide.So, given the level we've reached already -- it's not at all necessary that we continue along some imagined line of progress -- we could simply be happy enough with things as they are now. Any interest to go further, necessarily indicates interest in optimizing the superorganism. Which means, if you'd like to see, say, cybernetics, or "hard" AI maybe a singularity or something, maybe colonizing other planets/systems -- well, that'll take a more advanced level of technology than we have now, and so you must support the superorganism in aim of that goal.However, if you hold such values, and also hold values favoring individuality, "freedom", resourcefulness -- you hold a contradiction. You cannot be in favor of both: one is towards progress, one is against it. There is no progress, nothing like the global system we have today at least -- from lone individuals hiding in little grass huts. That is, if you remove everything we have to day, that's where you'd be, worse off indeed than the real human "state of nature" in ~150 size villages -- instead playing the true Hobbesian nightmare, scared, cold and starving in a hut in the wilderness.(And, to be clear, such a state, is indeed possible; many have certainly done so, even without the benefit of modern materials, i.e. not even taking knives, pots, etc. with them. But a means of propagating the species, it is not.)Tim

author: fourfathom
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2022, 04:06:39 pm
content: Quote from: T3sl4co1l on July 16, 2022, 02:38:47 amBut I am in favor of both, and see no contradiction. Instead I see a balance, or compromise between competing goals. We make such compromises constantly, and without them life would be pretty awful.It's the absolutists I fear. This is why (as I mentioned before) I am a pragmatic libertarian, and I feel free to redefine "libertarian" as I see fit.

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2022, 04:18:04 pm
content: It is exactly that balance, thatrequiresus to consider more opinions than just the ones that are "obviously correct" for us. Which leads directly back to the topic at hand, Dave's video.

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2022, 04:25:22 pm
content: And don't you love it how it leads to 23 pages and counting of arguinghttps://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/electroboom-how-right-is-veritasium!-dont-electrons-push-each-other/550/?topicseen#lastPost

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 16, 2022, 04:34:16 pm
content: Quote from: T3sl4co1l on July 16, 2022, 02:38:47 amIf we take it on the level of group survival instead of individual, then original population of progressive first world is dying. Birth rates are super low and population is replaced by immigrants and their children because they have much higher birth rates. Look at population of London for example, white British were effectively replaced there and will soon go extinct if trends remain the same.

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2022, 04:36:57 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on July 16, 2022, 04:30:42 pmAnd that is how the united states was born. Immigrants that took over. Not per se with higher birth rates, but certainly with the believe of being better then the locals.

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2022, 04:47:47 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on July 16, 2022, 04:27:20 pmNot very relevant -- again, think in terms of superorganisms, not individuals. It's how much power those groups exert, compared to others; not their relative populations.Think how many wars have been won against overwhelming odds, thanks to superior weaponry or strategy. Or despite them, for that matter. You could probably draw plenty of examples of both cases from, say, just WWII Germany vs. Russia: first with the invasion proceeding rapidly through superior tactics, training and firepower; second as truly overwhelming numbers ground them down. Evidently Germany had about so-and-so multiplier on their side, due to those factors; but in the end, Russia just had that many times more to throw back at them.In modern context, for example USA isn't very concerned about China's outnumbering standing army, nor the considerable population they can recruit from; their capability is still considered inferior. (At least, that's my guess. I'm not a strategy wonk.) I can't say an open war between those powers would be very pleasant for anyone (anywhere on Earth, at that, let alone for the powers themselves), but a technical victory seems likely at this time. (Ask again in maybe 20 or 30 years, the answer may be... well, it'll probably be pretty obvious by then, what the state of affairs is...)Tim

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 16, 2022, 04:56:20 pm
content: Quote from: T3sl4co1l on July 16, 2022, 04:47:47 pmSuperorganisms? In previous post I basically said that this superorganism gets replaced by more successful and fertile immigrants. What is the point of winning external wars when original population of the country dies from the inside? Also if talking about wars, USA pretty much lost every time since WW2. Libia, Iraq, Afganistan - US sort of won initially but the result is a large long lasting shit show for everyone.

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2022, 05:13:56 pm
content: Quote from: T3sl4co1l on July 16, 2022, 04:47:47 pmDon't forget about the weather conditions during that WWII battle. The Germans where not properly equipped for the extreme colds. A fatal flaw in Hitlers quest was his impatience. Had he first stabilized his first captures and rebuild his armies it might had lead to us all speaking German by now.But some that you might like not to remember, the Vietnam and Korean wars, despite the weaponry where not really won either.All I hope for is another 30 years of peace and somewhat stable existence. Call me an egoist, but after my death I don't give a f.. what happens to humanity.Edit: China does not have to go to war. All it has to do is collect the debts. And they buy or invest into a lot of important infrastructure (for instance harbors), so they can control things from the inside. And we brought them the money to do it because it saved a couple of pennies.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2022, 05:55:25 pm
content: Quote from: T3sl4co1l on July 16, 2022, 02:38:47 amBy deviant traits, I presume you're talking about homosexuality? If so, I've heard that 15% figure before, but if I remember rightly it's based on a survey asking people whether they have ever experienced same sex attraction. The number of people who are exclusively homosexual is much lower. A good proportion of people have engaged in homosexual activity at some point, but far fewer choose a partner of the same sex, over one of the opposite sex. Quite often homosexuality is situational, i.e. the person has no choice but a partner of the same sex, or it might be tactical i.e. a group of women touching each other in order to attract men.Quote from: wraper on July 16, 2022, 04:56:20 pmYes, that's true. Societies die when another ethnic group invades and replaces them. This has happened a lot in the past, but now in the west our leaders are allowing it to happen because they benefit in the short term, as immigrants do jobs comparatively wealthy natives won't do, they're cheaper to employ, which drives down wages and increased in demand for housing props up the building industry. It's more bleak in the long term. The immigrants invariably don't come from a culture of freedom and democracy and they don't integrate, leading to interethnic tension.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2022, 06:30:16 pm
content: Quote from: pcprogrammer on July 16, 2022, 05:13:56 pmI'm not so sure about that. Technically they could own assets within the USA and we could tell them to f*** off and there is not much they could do other than declare war. Of course at the moment we are far too reliant on them, something the pandemic should illustrate is that a country should never become too reliant on another country. Not necessarily because we don't like them, but because in a time of global crisis they are going to look after the needs of their own citizens first, and rightfully so. We must have the capability to provide for ourselves if needed. Even if a domestic factory is not by itself profitable it could make sense to keep it going anyway.

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2022, 06:34:49 pm
content: Talking about technical superiority of weaponry is at least silly, as Afganistan has demonstrated. The secret sauce is perhaps elswhere but not in that.

author: fourfathom
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2022, 06:43:28 pm
content: Quote from: pcprogrammer on July 16, 2022, 04:25:22 pmActually, I do like it. This is intellectual exercise and entertainment for tech-nerds (like me). If some jerks can't debate without name-calling -- well, some people are jerks. We can ignore them, or be amused and possibly learn some useful insults.

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2022, 06:52:34 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on July 16, 2022, 06:30:16 pmSure the USA could tell China to f*** off, but it would damage the precious economy for sure. Will China declare war, that is the question. For them there is also a lot in stake. I think China's economy will also take a dive when they declare war, due to the rest of the west imposing sanctions. Just as the whole gender discussion a very difficult topic. World economics and how it all depends on so many factors.Quote from: james_s on July 16, 2022, 06:30:16 pmThat is indeed what the covid period showed, and also what Russia v.s Ukraine is showing right now. Countries need to become more self sufficient, but a big problem is natural resources. Take the Netherlands, not much natural resources there, apart from some gas in Groningen, but the extraction of it causes earthquakes. So they have to import a lot and stock pile it for times of trouble, which leads to other problems.But it will lead to individualism on a much larger scale, and the our country against theirs becomes a big issue. Chauvinism is a dangerous thing.Edit: According to this website Japan holds an even bigger stake in the US debt than China.https://www.thebalance.com/who-owns-the-u-s-national-debt-3306124Have not verified it against other sources.

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2022, 06:56:49 pm
content: Quote from: fourfathom on July 16, 2022, 06:43:28 pmThe jokes in between are certainly amusing.I'm not into physics that much, but would have enjoyed this when I was young. I wrote the first post after the initial start of the thread, and it shows what my take on it is.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2022, 07:12:29 pm
content: All countries are reliant on one another to some extent. I can't the US going to war with China any time soon. They rely on one another too much for trade too much.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2022, 07:15:21 pm
content: IMHO, the only, while still remarkable, success we have achieved as a species is the ability to determine our own future in some way and, at least partially, get out of our "condition".Of course, this can be seen on a relatively short scale and maybe it's all just an illusion.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2022, 07:37:27 pm
content: Quote from: pcprogrammer on July 15, 2022, 07:15:21 pmdongkey and pig also can be successful species even without us... medication and chemicals we injected into our body, nucular contamination, chemicals on food, antivirus (aids origin) etc etc that caused mutilated childborn, disorders etc etc.... when we mention God, god is to be blamed of all this, everything good is human. even if its true there is no God, then who caused all this abnormalities? they silent without noise... but no, they will ask us back (in defense), where is your proof? we can find proof when it is too late.

author: Kim Christensen
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2022, 08:22:09 pm
content: Quote from: pcprogrammer on July 15, 2022, 05:33:32 pmOn this I disagree. There are certain facts that are not worth questioning. Take Newton's law of gravitation for example. While the science behind it is not entirely correct, for Joe Average on Earth, it is 100% reliable to accept it as "fact". Stepping off the roof of a 30 story building will result in 100% of the people falling to their deaths (with no parachute, etc). None will "float" in mid air like Wile Coyote does. (before her realizes where he is and the physics kick in)While a physicist, astronomer, Rocket scientist, etc, shouldn't be relying on Newton's law as a "fact" it's perfectly fine for Joe Average.Same goes for the flat Earth crap. There's really no room for debate about that. Those are the "facts" I'm talking about. Just because someone can point to unsettled science doesn't mean these basic truths should be questioned. To do so, would result in more people falling to their deaths and doing other stupid things. That's what I meant when I said, "Facts matter".

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2022, 12:00:24 am
content: Quote from: wraper on July 16, 2022, 04:56:20 pmThe superorganism is not its constituents.The superorganism persists regardless of its constituency, until such point the superorganism is destroyed, disbanded, absorbed, etc. (remaining constituents die off, leave, or get absorbed by another superorganism). Think Ship of Theseus. As long as there's a culture that considers itself e.g. "United Kingdom", then that entity continues to exist. Doesn't matter if its people are white, brown or green. And its collective values, culture, society likely will change gradually with its constituency -- Britain didn't always know curry -- but there remains a continuous unbroken line through history, of an entity, with borders roughly in such-and-such location, that calls itself this.Internal values can also change quite a bit, while international relations evolve on a somewhat separate track. Britain might be progressive enough to have free healthcare, but they also withdrew from the EU...It's sometimes perplexing that so many western countries don't want more immigrants; but it would be some burden to reeducate them (and words like "reeducation" aren't particularly popular), so that isn't done very often, and mostly they serve as cheap labor (what could be cheaper than labor that's "not supposed" to be here in the first place?). Their values don't seem to be an issue: after all, it's the ones that cry about them the loudest (right wingers), with whom they share the most values (strongly religious, authoritarian, low education, etc. -- depending obviously a lot on where they're immigrating from!). And indeed there are some strong populations of minorities that vote Republican (particularly FL Cubans, IIRC).As for most recent proxy wars: winning battles is far too narrow a perspective. Again, globalization. No one needs to shift borders anymore. (Well, Russia's trying to...) Middle-east policy is to keep the area stricken with war and dictators so that stable, democratic governments cannot be set up -- which would secure their borders economically speaking, and extract value (taxes!) from their mineral (oil) resources. The worst thing for the world right now (as leaders see it, that is) would be having a Sweden smack in the middle of that region, jacking up worldwide oil prices.Winning wars and taking territory is outdated; it's all about the oil flow. It's never been about "freedom", or "spreading democracy", or "protecting allies" (if it's about democracy, why the fuck are we supporting Saud?..); the rhetoric is all about convincing the populace to go along with it. (Again: external actions, and internal values, are often two separate matters.)As for Vietnam, I don't have much analysis on it; I didn't live through it, I don't know exactly what all was going on. It's pretty clear USA didn't "want" to win it, and millitary-industrial folly seems as good as any explanation. They had to at least keep up appearances versus the Red Scare (because, what's the only thing that's more scary to an authoritarian, than a liberal? another authoritarian of course). (I will never not make it a point to highlight the fact that, what people think they're afraid of about "communism", is actually authoritarianism.) Probably the same applies to Afghanistan (if it was actually about terrorism, we would've sanctioned Saudi Arabia, except, oh wait, petrodollars..); certainly the more recent Iraq, motivated of course by the usual middle-east oil squabbles.And yep, weather conditions, invading Russia in the winter, etc... home advantage, shifting the balance.

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2022, 12:35:45 am
content: Quote from: Bud on July 16, 2022, 06:34:49 pmWhile we were there, the Taliban were effectively suppressed. Effective enough, anyway, to set up some familiar manner of government. (I don't know the numbers offhand, as far as estimated Taliban count/recruitment rate vs. troops on the ground, and casualty rates for both. If those sorts of things were even made public yet...) The people didn't see any value in it, though, and it collapsed as soon as we left.It would've been an interesting project (in terms of statebuilding, social engineering, say -- completely setting aside whatever human cost would've been incurred, let alone the economic burden of being there so long) to set up schools and culturally-relevant modes of propaganda, to try and educate them into such a system -- this would seem the only way to bring literally stone-age peoples into modern administrative structures relatively quickly, and even then it must take over a decade to attempt such a feat. (See also: China bringing their rural/subsistence population up to speed -- through notoriously brutal means. Effective? Time will tell, I guess. That's not something the US public would stomach -- as many brutal things as the USA does get away with, they couldn't possibly keep a project that vast under wraps for long enough to accomplish anything.) And then what, I don't know, maybe they could be a minor manufacturing center or something, cheap labor, some mineral resources?But that seems like sad little economic value to justify such an immense investment. So it was abandoned, as was inevitable, and the Taliban rolled right back in, as if -- well, basically nothing did change.Tim

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2022, 03:25:13 am
content: Quote from: T3sl4co1l on July 17, 2022, 12:35:45 amI've heard some dumb things in my time, but calling the Afghanis "literally stone-age peoples" has got to be up there. I don't think the stone age was big on cities, schools, universities, hospitals, electricity, things like that.C'mon surely you can do better than that, or are Americans really so parochial that they believe that everyone in the country is an ignorant savage, potentially useful only as pool of cheap labour once they've been minimally "educated", or to be conned out of their mineral wealth for some beads or blankets? Which might prove a little difficult with a country famed for the rugs it has exported since at least Victorian times. You are literally talking about the invasion of Afghanistan in terms of an economic colonisation that would have been completely familiar to the directors of the East India Company. Appalling!

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2022, 03:54:43 am
content: Quote from: Kim Christensen on July 16, 2022, 08:22:09 pmagree on your point, but some science are pure imagination into a theory, based on limited sample study (i call this "statistical science"). since there is no equally popular competing theory, most people treat it like a hard fact similar to like Newton's Law, even if its probably not. this i see usually happened in field of medical, biology and evolution... look at my signature and see how Richard Dawkin's theory can be challenged. its just not got into popular view, its a matter of how you advertise the theory and how much people are willing to accept and spread by mouth and hand about it... ps: if you google"Evolution and the Illusion of Randomness Stephen L. Talbott"you should be able to findhttps://www.thenewatlantis.com/publications/evolution-and-the-illusion-of-randomnessotherwise i'm wrong about the "algorithm". its quite a long read, but if you are not kind of "pick and choose" person, there are some rational/good facts inside.

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2022, 04:00:05 am
content: Babylon was built by ignorant savages?! The stone age invented civilization as we know it...?As far as I know, modern facilities are very sparse there? And obviously they have access to steel, motor vehicles, oil, whatever electricity is had from generators and such; but also as far as I know, few if any of these by local production, it's just hard to avoid those sorts of things by import (being so useful, easy to use and relatively available).The breakdown of government, as I've heard it -- granted, like 3rd hand, and no, I don't have the references handy anyway, so I could be very far off base here -- there's no cultural value for institutions, or even prohibition/shame/stigma about what we call corruption or bribery or thievery -- it's simply day to day survival, "well, someone left this laying around, they practically *meant* someone to come by and pick it up, right?" -- the picture I've heard makes a bleak state of things relative to what we would think. But, cultural relativism -- that's simply how it works over there. At least, again -- so I've heard.I should add, these reports were likely from rural areas. Most of the country is agrarian, so this doesn't seem an over-the-top assessment of things on average. Overgeneralized, certainly; Kabul alone is bigger than all cities within a 50mi radius of me. Though what NGOs say about e.g. political corruption seems to suggest it's not much different at least at the top levels, so these reports seem plausible. I'm welcome to hear otherwise.And if you could hold on for one fucking second... why not educate me on what and how I've said is wrong, instead of flying into a rage? It's like this thread hasn't even begun to teach any lessons.And, yes, I was literally talking in economic terms, because.. that's what that hypothetical aside was about? Did you skip over the parenthesis I put in there for a reason? Evolution and world economy care very little about human misery, unfortunately; yet onward they march.Tim

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2022, 04:16:11 am
content: Quote from: T3sl4co1l on July 17, 2022, 12:35:45 amIf its soooo effective, why the hell once the Yankeestan left, Taliban took only weeks, not monthS to take over the whole Afghanistan without any significant resistances.While the local resistance forces, from those so called "Democracy & Freedom Fighters"of locals death squad which were trained by so called super duper uber US military elite and holly trainer, and were well equipped with state of the art modern weaponry.ha.. ha..Once in while, its not considered a sin to admit the Taliban beat the sh*t out of US military in conventional war.

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2022, 04:41:48 am
content: Quote from: BravoV on July 17, 2022, 04:16:11 amI mean... sure? I guess? It's like saying, you're gonna beat me in hoops, and after dunking 20 in a row I get bored and leave. You toss a few and get one, you've won now, congratulations?In the sense of retreating from an active zone -- definitely, yes. (Does that fit the usual definition? Again, I'm no military wonk.)I, more or less explained, or hinted at, why the local forces fell so quickly. They didn't take to training (and, either we had great difficulty training them, or we didn't even try to find an effective manner to do so?), and -- again, as I've heard it -- were basically as excited as anyone else to have all this free materiel on the ground, ready to shift around and make a buck. "Who cares if the Taliban comes back, they're not so bad, they've been here before, it was whatever" kind of thing.And I'd be quite more than happy if they'd have spared the fucking three trillion dollars and counting, they spent on these wars, and put it towards something useful like domestic social services, or investing in foreign aid. But we can't have nice things in the US unless you're a military contractor. If you want loss porn, resounding defeat -- you don't need to look for it on the battlefield, these numbers tell no lie.Tim

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2022, 11:22:14 am
content: Through history it is not just the USA that "lost" in Afghanistan. The Russians have tried and failed too.And referring to them as from the "stone ages" might be the wrong term. "Cave man" is probably a better fit, because denying woman education and forcing them to make house and take care of the babies is to me "cave man" behavior. Granted I have never been there, but friends of ours met a couple that fled from Afghanistan just for these reasons. On a funny side note, they sell rugs (carpets)and that is how our friends came in contact with them.And unfortunately as long as weapons industry is big business there will always be wars and money wasted on destruction instead of improvement.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2022, 01:24:16 pm
content: In order to take over a country, the people need to be beaten into believing there's no alternative to submit. If the resistance isn't crushed, it'll keep coming back. This is what's happened in Afghanistan. The west needs to keep the hell away from those sorts of countries. Nothing positive will come out of interference, in the long term.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 17, 2022, 02:53:05 pm
content: Quote from: pcprogrammer on July 17, 2022, 11:22:14 amSoviets were officially supporting government of Afghanistan which came to power during coup (previous government gained power the same way) and as civil war started. Soviets were asked by Afghan government many times to send military but refused to do so. Then later stepped in when because of infighting the leader of ruling party was killed in (justified) fears that US gains the influence there. And eventually failed in a large part due to USA meddling, supplying weapons and providing military training to what eventually became Taliban. So what US is very successful in is making shit hit the fan. Now US lost to what they created themselves.