Rigol and production - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: DavidDLC
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 21, 2015, 09:51:55 pm
content: How good is the Rigol equipment for production ?Does anybody have experience with them ?The probable equipment we will get:- Oscilloscopes.- Signal generators.- Power supplies.I appreciate any help on the topic.David.

author: Matje
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 21, 2015, 10:32:20 pm
content: Quote from: DavidDLC on May 21, 2015, 09:51:55 pmCare to define what "for production" is actually supposed to mean? Meaning real measurable stuff, not some fluffycrap like "used in a production environment". ;-)

author: DavidDLC
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 21, 2015, 10:42:37 pm
content: The equipment will be installed in production lines in China and Mexico.David.

author: Hydrawerk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 21, 2015, 10:42:56 pm
content: For use 12 hour everyday? Rather not.

author: DavidDLC
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 21, 2015, 10:48:35 pm
content: Quote from: Hydrawerk on May 21, 2015, 10:42:56 pmThanks for your input.Are you telling me that based on experience ?I'm putting together a equipment proposal and I want to include Rigol which are low price and considerable quality. I will include other brands like Keysight, Tektronix, and more.David.

author: Muxr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 21, 2015, 11:19:43 pm
content: Rigol makes some great gear for entry level hobbyist. But it feels rather fragile. Like from personal experience DS2072A, like I noticed only after a month of light use my channel A vertical encoder is much more loose than the channel B encoder (because I use the A encoder more often).Don't think Rigol oscilloscopes are made to take the abuse day in day out on a production line.Can't speak to their other gear, I only have their scope.

author: Electro Fan
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 21, 2015, 11:32:11 pm
content: Quote from: DavidDLC on May 21, 2015, 09:51:55 pmHow many scopes, sig gens, and power supplies are you considering? One or two of each, a few, several, or a bunch?How many hours per day will they be used? How much tender loving care will this gear receive vs. how much "don't care/rough use/abuse" might it receive?How often can you afford to have a piece of test equipment out of operation and for how long?The more stringent the requirements the more you might need to consider where you will get service and how good/fast that service will be. That might lean you toward Keysight, Tektronix, or maybe a few others of the majors - but even with the majors you might have to rely on shipping the equipment for repair depending on where you are and where the vendor provides service. (Others here can tell you about each brand in terms of what you might expect for turnaround time once you send something out for service - this might be a key question for you to research. If turnaround time is really important you might try contacting each vendor to see what the experience is like before the sale; it generally doesn't get a lot better after the sale.)On the other hand, if you are going to need several or a bunch of each type of test equipment you could probably save some money with Rigol and just factor in a spare unit for each model. Personally, I don't think Rigol is likely to fail all that much more often than the "majors", especially if your users treat the gear with care; if they don't care I'm not sure Rigol offers quite the same industrial durability of some of the "majors" - again you'll get plenty of opinions here. Either way, having a spare unit might be good even if you buy from the majors if you can't afford to have the equipment down.It might come down to "nobody ever got fired for buying IBM/AT&T/Fill in the Blank". No doubt, sometimes people can get talked into a situation where "you can buy better but you can't pay more." Kind of depends on what you need and value, and whether the strategy emphasizes playing to win, or not to lose.Hard to say without knowing more about your requirements for functionality, performance, and service - but if you can say more about what is top of mind for you there are lots of people here who will weigh-in with their thoughts and advice. (There are lots of users of Rigol, Agilent/Keysight, Tektronix, and other products in this forum - you've come to a good place to ask.)

author: rx8pilot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 21, 2015, 11:34:30 pm
content: I have a few Rigol pieces and they are collecting dust - replaced by old Tektronix scope and HP power supplies. They never broke, they just sucked in more ways I have time to write about. Everyday, they would remind me of the price I paid to save money.For a production environment - it varies. If you only need the most basic features and the tolerances are wide - Rigol may be just fine. I would personally not even consider them. I have been in manufacturing for a while now and been burned almost every time I tried to 'save' money. As I used to accuse one of my early mentors of "spending a dollar to bend over and pick up a nickel". Saving money is an art form and I have found that the low-cost gear is generally the most expensive option. Lost time from a less than excellent instrument is far more expensive than the difference between Keysight and Rigol prices.My real world experience is that getting the best tools for the job is the lowest cost solution. In my machine shop, we initially purchased mid-range tools. They could cut the materials and make parts. I eventually did some experiments with tools that cost 2x the price, but were able to cut 4x the speed and last much longer. It did not take long to punch that into a calculator.Only you can decide since we have no real information about what your requirements are or expectations.

author: all_repair
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2015, 12:16:06 am
content: Quote from: DavidDLC on May 21, 2015, 10:48:35 pmI had overheating problem with Rigol arbitrary signal generator after extended use about10 years ago. But 10 years is a very long time in our industry.

author: Fsck
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2015, 12:35:36 am
content: Quote from: all_repair on May 22, 2015, 12:16:06 amthere are 3458's that are basically as old as I am that have been running 24/7 that work fine, even at factory temps.there are also 34401s that have lasted basically as long.

author: XFDDesign
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2015, 01:48:07 am
content: On a production line, that usually means automation.Automation, means software support, and Rigol products simply don't have it.I own a DSA815 spec an, and for Amateur radio work, it does the job "well enough" for the price. However, as I'm increasing my use-cases, I too attempted to automate the instrument. While the fit and finish of the unit is quite good, the ultimate failing is in their software. Out of the box, the unit supports LXI -- supposedly. Mine doesn't work. Never has. Firmware updates didn't fix it either. I have to buy a GPIB adapter (which would be fine anyway) to get it to work with my GPIB network, but the programming manual is lacking. Most of the device's operation (and most of Rigol's line in general) is anchored to a clunky automation software environment for windows. This then boxes me into using their software, which is not a stable platform, and makes a mess of trying to form an automation line.All of the failings with the products really come down to the back-end support, not the up-front part of the hardware.The hobbyist doesn't need a complete SCPI command set, nor does the hobbyist need to build complex test automation apps. The hobbyist is not doing production of anything with a worth while amount of quantity. Rigol products are perfect for them.

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2015, 04:15:46 am
content: No no, lets encourage OP to install this crap in China so they can taste their own medicine.

author: marshallh
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 22, 2015, 04:36:42 am
content: IMO, buy refurbished or new Tek/agilent. I don't have that level of confidence in Rigol for day in, day out usage. When it inevitably breaks and you wheel in the replacement Agilent, are you going to want to retrain the folks just for the new gear?

author: Gunb
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2015, 06:11:57 am
content: Quote from: Hydrawerk on May 21, 2015, 10:42:56 pm

author: slurry
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2015, 06:36:33 am
content: If you put it inside a cooled cabinet and no one are touching it and you are just using pass/fail output, it may work for quite some time.But really..no, if you are serious about reliability and maintaing a good production flow use known brands and sign a service agreement that suits your needs.Oscilloscopes in a productionline is prone to break sooner or later, make sure you have at least one or preferrably two extra scopes to use when you have to send one in for repair and when all is working use for eduation.I was once called to a customer where his production line measuring and weighing equipment suddenly died all too often,after i talked to the engineers i correlated the incidents to dry weather so i told him to look over all the grounding of the belts, there was a few loose grounding straps that prevented static charges to build up that had cost them thousands of euros.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2015, 09:37:57 am
content: Quote from: rx8pilot on May 21, 2015, 11:34:30 pm+1There is little reason why any of the better Chinese equipment wouldn't meet your needs, although you'd want to ensure you selected "mature" models.

author: DavidDLC
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2015, 04:26:19 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on May 22, 2015, 09:37:57 amYes, my question was if somebody has experience with Rigol equipment on production lines.I still don't know the factory conditions, I have not been there yet, later I will visit them. I imagine a typical production line with not very good A.C. systems, temperature and humidity conditions ok, but you never know.I'm putting together test solution cases, the equipment will be in a rack and it will be controlled by a computer, so there is no human interaction.Based on what I've read, I may go to a better brand names.David.

author: LabSpokane
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2015, 04:47:17 pm
content: I have experience in Mexico, and my advice is whatever you're installing had better be damned robust or you will always be down. The power grid is crap. The electrical systems in the buildings are crap. The buildings themselves are crap. (And that is new construction) If you have AC at all, it is poor. Lots of buildings only have swamp coolers. Everything will be working against you.Parts, service, spares? You might as well have moved to Mars. Everything has to be shipped in. Everything gets trapped in customs.Then there's training. If this is production line personnel, you're going to be doing a lot of it. Employees are only hired on short term contracts. They are all poorly paid, so it's common to have a lot of employees just not come back to work after a major holiday, such as Christmas. (I don't blame them.) So, whatever you pick had better be in Spanish, good Spanish.This isn't personal, racial, or nationalistic, it's just the way it is. It is a very challenging environment to maintain production.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2015, 04:59:27 pm
content: Quote from: rx8pilot on May 21, 2015, 11:34:30 pmThis exactly.

author: XFDDesign
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2015, 05:05:03 pm
content: Quote from: LabSpokane on May 22, 2015, 04:47:17 pmAnd suddenly I'm wondering if you don't happen to work with or for, a certain "Spokane area" engineering firm which deals with power products and who has a factory in Mexico.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2015, 05:12:07 pm
content: I'd be surprised if there was much difference in reliability between Rigol and bigger names in the same class.Rigol is pretty well built, and has the advantage of being cheap enough that you can carry spares.It is hard to predict what will go wrong ( bear in mind that staff vandalism/sabotage is one of the possible failure modes), so having spare kit is probably the best way to cover all possibilities.As regards wear and tear, maybe regard them as consumable items and replace after <x> years - you'l recover a reasonable part of the cost selling on as test gear is always sellable.If your mains is bad, then condition it first - a cheap UPS would probably provide reasonable protection fairly cheaply.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2015, 05:17:26 pm
content: Quote from: DavidDLC on May 22, 2015, 04:26:19 pmIn which case you need something with reliable comms,networking etc. - probably more important than physical robustness.This is an area where you would certainly expect major names to be better as the Chinese can't write decent software.Even the cheapest big-name gear probably shares the same code base as their higher-end stuff, so probably a better choice.

author: DavidDLC
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2015, 05:19:08 pm
content: Quote from: LabSpokane on May 22, 2015, 04:47:17 pmWell I'm from Mexico and worked several years in manufacturing facilities of different types, there are good ones and bad ones.David.

author: LabSpokane
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2015, 05:26:06 pm
content: Well, a UPS needs an earth ground first off. Good luck with that in Mexico unless you bring in people from the north that know how to establish an earth ground in soil that doesn't conduct well.Then there's lightning protection. That's quite the novelty in Mexico.I'm not telling you that you MUST use Agilsight or suffer the consequences, I'm saying you have a shitload of homework to do before worrying about the nameplate on your equipment.Oh, and do tell the guard with the shotgun muzzle on his toe outside Whataburger hello for me. If he doesn't have his big toe anymore, give him my condolences.

author: LabSpokane
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2015, 05:28:27 pm
content: Quote from: DavidDLC on May 22, 2015, 05:19:08 pmYup. And if you're in one that was built by HP or a similar class company, you'll do fine. If you end up in a building constructed via the good old boys network, watch out.

author: smgvbest
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 22, 2015, 05:42:59 pm
content: Quote from: XFDDesign on May 22, 2015, 01:48:07 amThanks for making us hobbyist feel like crap and like we don't mater.

author: XFDDesign
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2015, 06:20:29 pm
content: Quote from: smgvbest on May 22, 2015, 05:42:59 pm*matter.Is anything I said untrue? Tell me how you have worked to automate the production test of the last widget you've made. I would love to hear all about it. I would also love to hear how you've connected the idea of certain features that are important to production testing equates to "hobbyists are crap and don't matter." Do you buy DMMs with robust automation features? Most hobbyists on this board salivate on $50 or $100 meters, not $1,200+ meters with all sorts of back end support they don't need or won't use. Why would a hobbyist pay a lot more money for features they won't use? How many hobbyists concern themselves with system level integration, across multiple instruments, and cross-platform support (i.e. reusable code for specific purposes)? How many want to pay for that when they don't need it? Many hobbyists are happy to manually log data. The list can go on for a very long time, and is all objectively based on the specific needs and tasks of a production environment. What you feel is irrelevant.

author: rx8pilot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2015, 06:31:43 pm
content: I did not read that as a hobbyist jab, but rather the reality that production lines need a higher level of gear than a hobbyist. Features and reliability are directly tied to the livelihood of all the people that work for that company. If a hobbyist has to fiddle a bit with some gear the is half the price or less - who cares? The low cost options are a fantastic opportunity for non-professionals to have access to advanced tools that were far out of reach until recently.In a tiny production line, say you have an hourly operating cost of maybe $120. This would cover a small staff and a modest sized room with modest equipment. That is $2 per minute. If you have a piece of equipment that can save 30min per day for whatever reason that is $60 per day. $300 per week. $15k per year. A hobbyist would never see that and would be better off saving the money from the initial purchase.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2015, 06:32:33 pm
content: Quote from: XFDDesign on May 22, 2015, 06:20:29 pmAnd how much money do hobbyists lose from downtime?

author: all_repair
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2015, 09:14:55 pm
content: It shall also depend on the quality of technicians maintaining the equipment. I am seeing Agilent and Keithley gears being "repaired" to almost unserviceable or unserviceable state. My gears are mostly used HP, used Fluke, and if new are China Rigol or Array. The overheating problem that I had seen on Rigol was likely due to overclocking of some chips in their design. But 10-20 years are a very long time for company with hardworking engineers like Rigol.

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2015, 02:55:08 am
content: Rigol DS1000 and DS2000 oscilloscopes are defective products. Their hardworking engineers over 10-20 years could not learn how to build a clock oscillator. Both DS1000 and DS2000 have chaotic master clock and no sane person should be using their garbage for hobby, let alone in production. Don't you see they show you middle finger at the apex of their "master clock"

author: smgvbest
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 23, 2015, 04:18:18 am
content: Quote from: XFDDesign on May 22, 2015, 06:20:29 pm

author: pickle9000
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2015, 04:48:49 am
content: I see no problem with using Rigol, Siglent, Agilent for a particular job provided it can do the job. This is a typical engineering decision and cost matters. No point putting high end gear where it's not necessary (easily stolen or whatever). Regardless of the job the brand name is only part of the equation. Bad equipment is all over and to say it's not is fooling yourself.

author: slurry
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2015, 05:30:38 am
content: Quote from: smgvbest on May 23, 2015, 04:18:18 amHe wrote quantity and you read quality, and there's a slight difference thereAs a hobbyist you seldom make any large series of equipment, maybe 10 or so at most,in a production environment where every bean counts reliable measuring equipment is vital.As the hobbyist usually not count any beans, turn pennies and counting seconds and minutes he or she can put huge amounts of time and effort in a project reulting in a extremely high quality, far from any sped-up production or assembly line.So no one can generally say that hobbyists=low quality, that is BS.Rigol is more than good enough for most electronics hobbyists, not for all of course, but for most.Rigol is also good for some small scale production, not all of course, but some.

author: Smith
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2015, 05:54:54 am
content: Just used a Rigol 6104 yesterday. Yes its the fastest most expensive one, but it felt faster than my (twice as expensive) Tek DPO4000 series. First impression is good, it looks and feels like a good quality unit. Not exactly what I expected. It has some nice features too.I wouldn't use it for myself. Its for a simple signal comparisson. I would hate to debug gear with a scope that still has bugs. I trust my Teks, I trust my HP, I trust my Philips, I dont trust the Rigol. But then again, it might be just as good (or better) but it didn't had the time to prove itself.I think it comes down to your company. Some companies use their gear until it's far beyond economical recovery. Other companies replace their gear every 3-7 years. I think most rigols will easily do 5 years with basic day to day use. Teks will probably do quite some time longer. Time will tell.

author: Armxnian
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2015, 05:57:44 am
content: Quote from: smgvbest on May 22, 2015, 05:42:59 pmDon't let him put you down. This is the internet, every man and his dog is a professional and knows everything about anythingThe poorly organized block of words basically said a hobbyist does not need certain features. Ignorant statement because those features can be used for education purposes to teach yourself, they don't have to be there for the sole purpose of monetary gain. Product reliability and support is what needs to be evaluated. If a product from Keysight does something a unit from Rigol cannot and you require it, then you don't consider the Rigol unit. You only consider it when they both offer the capabilities you need; OP seems to be past that stage.Quote from: Bud on May 23, 2015, 02:55:08 amRight, which is why 143/146 reviews for the ds1054z on tequipment are 4 and 5 stars. Also why the owner of the forum, I think his name is Dave, you might have heard of him, uses the ds1054z in the majority of videos. But of course all of the tests conducted by those users are invalid since the scopes are defective.To OP: It seems most in this thread are generalizing all products based on brand. Why is the ds1054z being compared to anything Keysight or the other big brands offer to begin with? The scopes currently worth purchasing from those brands start at $3000+. Rigol also makes higher end scopes that offer good features.That being said, Rigol seems to aim mostly to the consumer market. A normal consumer/hobbyist does not make a living on what they do. That is the difference. A hobbyist can wait a few weeks for a new firmware that fixes bugs. A professional cannot. A hobbyist can wait a few weeks for a response from the manufacturer's customer service. A professional cannot. Products from the big brands are guaranteed to work in such environments. There is a reason Rigol products are calibrated and tested using multimeters, power supplies, and scopes from Keysight, Fluke. Etc.. and not other Rigol equipment. Such gear ends up paying for itself in one way or another. The new Rigol stuff is built well and may survive in a factory, but it is built down to a price, and that alone is enough to inspire fear and not worth the risk of losing your business.

author: slurry
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2015, 06:00:58 am
content: Quote from: Smith on May 23, 2015, 05:54:54 amWe have two Tektronix 465 at work, still in use regularly, calibrated every year(that may be a sign of quality..)

author: Smith
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2015, 06:11:47 am
content: Quote from: slurry on May 23, 2015, 06:00:58 amComparing analog and digital scopes? I've seen a lot of digital tek scopes fail, where the analog ones got replaced with digital nes, or are still being used.Btw I fixed one of those last year, their build like tanks.

author: slurry
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2015, 06:34:51 am
content: Quote from: Smith on May 23, 2015, 06:11:47 am.. i forgot to mention that our 15 year old digital Tektronixs have failed, all four of them

author: Smith
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2015, 07:20:20 am
content: Quote from: Bud on May 23, 2015, 02:55:08 amCompare them to tek TDS2000 series. I hate those things, and they cost 4 times as much as the Rigol 1054. The Rigol has (had) some problems with their clock. I think 99% of the users wont even notice or matter. For basic measurements and debugging it's not that big of a deal. For the few percent that does, go spend that extra cash and buy a Tek/Agilent/whatever. I would do to for profesonal use. But for home use I would definetly go for the Rigol and spare some big bucks. Actually I would buy a second hand tek/hp, but thats another thing.Sometimes a Rigol could be the only option due to budget reasons. If one should start their own buisness, I think the Rigol would be the first choice, due to budget factors.Maybe its just you and your boss having enough money to buy big brands.Its like comparing Fluke multimeters with a cheap china brand ones. The Flukes are better, but most of the world seem to do just fine with the cheap ones.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2015, 09:28:32 am
content: Quote from: Bud on May 23, 2015, 02:55:08 amThat's a completely ridiculous statement. Scopes are not precision measuring instruments.Low-cost gear will always have some compromises. Rigol have proved themselves to be good enough for a large section of the market - if it's not good enough for you then go buy something more expensive, but don't try to pretend that a minor issue that you seem to find upsetting makes it unuseable for anyone else.Looking at the specs, I don't see a specification for clock noise/jitter, so it can't be described as defective. Lacking, possibly, but not defective.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2015, 09:31:22 am
content: Quote from: slurry on May 23, 2015, 06:34:51 amMade in Asia?

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2015, 09:38:01 am
content: Quote from: Smith on May 23, 2015, 07:20:20 amI know which one I would trust.Also plenty of Flukes are made in China.......are they crap....not likely.

author: HighVoltage
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2015, 09:55:33 am
content: I have built plenty of test stands over the years for many different clients.Some customers insist of high end gear and some want low cost scopes.In one case I used 2 Rigol scopes. The test stand is used every day in a clean production environment and the scopes are working perfectly alright. The way these scopes are used, a Keysight or Tektronix scope would not have added any benefits. Years later, the customer is still happy with them.On the other hand, for more difficult measurements, I use only Keysight scopes for my test stands. It always depends on the application and also the environment of use and so on.In some cases I use only old FLUKE PM3394B scopes for stability and features, that modern scopes do not offer for these applications.

author: MarkL
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 23, 2015, 01:03:57 pm
content: If this equipment is going to be sitting in a rack under computer control, I wouldn't trust Rigol.Rigol's SCPI implementation, at least on a DS1054 evaluation I did, was extremely buggy. Many commands did not work as documented, some worked inconsistently, and some caused the remote interface to completely lockup, requiring a reboot.This provided a pretty clear message to me that Rigol is not very focused on remote automation. Remote control seems more like a "me too" item for them.

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2015, 08:29:32 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on May 23, 2015, 09:28:32 amHave proved by what? By selling sh!t which only advantage is being cheap? They have not prove anything, it is us sheeps who make it look as if it made a revolution on the market because we all love to sing the holy Cheap Mantra.QuoteYou are late with your advice, already did.

author: slurry
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2015, 08:54:42 pm
content: Quote from: Bud on May 23, 2015, 08:29:32 pmIt's not hard to guess that you are a metrologistNo one said that Rigol made a revolution,the only thing they are doing is selling "modern" scopes loaded with functionality and with a price many hobbyists can afford (there are of course a few other brands as well)and that is one of the main reasons to why they're so popular.What you think of Rigol does not matter as it wont stop the 'sheeps' wanting as much value as possible for their money.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2015, 11:37:58 pm
content: Quote from: Bud on May 23, 2015, 08:29:32 pmMassive sales, good reviews and few complaints.

author: all_repair
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2015, 12:32:59 am
content: QuoteWhat did you buy wrongly? Oscillator or oscilloscope? Agilent rebranded Rigol, it must prove something, unless Rigol hasn't been improving from that point but regressing downwards.

author: Smith
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2015, 05:46:07 am
content: I hear a lot of complaints about Rigol, but besides bud who was talking about the masterclock and MarkL about the SCPI implementation there was no real proof there products are bad. It's more about the "it's chinese, thus crap".I'm not saying I think their good products are as good or better than other brands. But their products do look to be improving in a rapid rate. Looking at the price I don't think there is much to complain about. Time wil tell if their product lifetime is as good as the bigger brands.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2015, 06:59:38 am
content: Does a "production environment" need to turn the knobs or just connect a probe?I'd hope it's just connecting a probe. If you need to turn knobs you should probably have two 'scopes side by side to save on time and operator errors (or automate the setting changes via USB/Ethernet, which cheap Rigols can do...)If it's just connecting a probe and using automated settings changes then why would Rigol be any worse than a more expensive brand? What counts is how long it takes to swap a failed unit. You need to plan for that no matter what brand you use.

author: slurry
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2015, 07:22:55 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on May 24, 2015, 06:59:38 amIt varies...very much.Let say they are testing circuit boards, hopefully not using the ordinary delicate scopeprobes,instead placing the PCB in a jig with contact points connected to the scope.The scope sits inside a cooled cabinet and the pass/fail output is used, either there is a big red and green sign in front of the operator that lits up.As long as there is no SCPI-commands, advanced mesurements or extensive knobturning involved i dont see why a Rigol wouldn't suffice in a small-scale production environment,but it still would not be my personal first choice as i'm quite fond of serviceagreements that keeps the production running.

author: pickle9000
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2015, 07:29:15 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on May 24, 2015, 06:59:38 amDepends on the product. If you are using the internal masked pass fail test Rigols are very slow cheapo Siglents seem to be very (very) fast in that regard (masked pass fail tests). What does that mean? Buy a rebranded Siglent from a well known company try it out. Again it really means nothing, you need to pay attention to the gear itself and not the brand name. No I'm not saying Siglent is better (or worse) than Rigol you just need to spec out your stuff properly.Even if many professionals stick to the big brand names the reality is that price counts. The big brands will always be ahead but everything is being walmarted including production lines. Yes there are lines that will have only the best but that is not going to happen everywhere.

author: Hydrawerk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2015, 05:09:50 pm
content: Do you need active probes capability on the scope?

author: mackrc1
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2015, 11:26:15 pm
content: I think now is a good time to remind people what OP was asking, lets not turn this into a war against brands and hobbyists

author: smgvbest
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 27, 2015, 12:31:25 pm
content: Quote from: slurry on May 23, 2015, 05:30:38 amI did not read quality instead of quantityQuoteWhy is it assumed if your a hobbyist your "not doing production of anything" I'm not focusing on the rest of the sentence around quantity. this to me implies as a hobbyist I don't design with production in mind. if you're not designing in with production is mind the implied meaning to me is your not designing a quality product. I'm designing a focus controller for my telescope. it has to survive the heat and cold. it has to survive outside. it has to be durable. it has to be stable or it will ruin my images. it has to work and work every time I use it. I take the production to mean quality. now granted there's allot of crap out there that is production but hobbyist can produce quality stuff even if it's not intended for a production line.There seems to be some who attack Rigol. make claims but do not back up those claims with facts and not just read the forums. I have and am happy with what I've read.how many Tek or Agilent scope have gone through the public testing that Rigol has.

author: XFDDesign
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2015, 01:51:35 pm
content: Quote from: smgvbest on May 27, 2015, 12:31:25 pmThis is your problem, not mine.Quote from: smgvbest on May 27, 2015, 12:31:25 pmIf you have hit the stage where you have commercialized a project, gone through the motions for ramping up sales interests and have generated ordersin quantity, then you're no longer a hobbyist. You have moved out of the Hobbyist realm and into the professional one.Quote from: smgvbest on May 27, 2015, 12:31:25 pmThen the rest of what you wrote is of no consequence. If you have to modify the sentence to fit your desired narrative, you're not only being intellectually dishonest, but you are admitting you don't actually have an argument against what was written.Quote from: smgvbest on May 27, 2015, 12:31:25 pmBespoke things are not necessarily junk things. But there is a star system's worth of gap between bespoke one-offs, and turning a thousand units in a sitting. Until you reach the point where you have done this, your opinion and feelings are irrelevant. This is not a thread in which everyone gets together and champions the greatness of their one-off items. It is a discussion that is very specifically about the use of Rigol Instrumentation in a production environment. Unless you are asking questions to learn yourself, or you have production experience to contribute, your self-aggrandizing is entirely without merit.

author: uoficowboy
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2015, 03:24:42 pm
content: Looks like this thread is heavily derailed - but I figure I'll jump in with my own experience. I've put a number of products into full mass production (millions/year). All of this was in China, with tier 1 and 2 CMs. All the test equipment that the CMs chose (I never chose it for them) - was name brand stuff. I especially remember seeing a lot of HP/Agilent gear, but also some Flukes and Tektronix. I don't think I ever saw a Rigol.I think some of the soldering stations were off brand, however. Also I remember at a battery factory I didn't recognize the names on any of their battery testing equipment - but that's pretty specialized.Ohh, also I saw some of those standard off brand China power supplies (the ones that you can find a million different brands of) on the production lines. But never an off brand meter, scope, spectrum analyzer, vna, etc. All of those were always good name brands.

author: Hydrawerk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2015, 08:05:00 pm
content: QuoteLike this one?

author: Armxnian
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2015, 08:23:17 pm
content: Rigol gear is made using high quality off the shelf components. Just because it's Chinese doesn't mean they make their own chips and capacitors in their garage. Many YouTube tear downs have said their build quality matches anything the big brands put out, at a much lower cost.People haven't seen Rigol in production environments because the quality gear is new. You don't replace gear in a production environment very often.The only problems mentioned here were bugs and scpi. The models that have been out for a couple of years have nearly all the bugs fixed. And it's not like the big brands put out gear that is bug free. All the Rigols also have extensive scpi capability. The programing guide is available on their site for each product. If the Rigol equipment has the specs you need, it should do fine in a production environment. The manuals for some of the products like the DP832 show units in racks. They are obviously tested to some extent.Brand fanboyism and ignorance to other products is the most annoying thing ever. Reminds me of the children at computer forums fighting over Intel, Nvidia, and AMD.

author: ivan747
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2015, 08:54:29 pm
content: Quote from: LabSpokane on May 22, 2015, 04:47:17 pmWe have Tek TDS220s at uni, they have good spanish translations. Some terms get lost in translation but that always happens when translating technical English, trust me.

author: ivan747
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2015, 08:58:27 pm
content: Quote from: LabSpokane on May 22, 2015, 05:26:06 pmthat's extremely accurate

author: DavidDLC
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2015, 09:04:35 pm
content: Quote from: Hydrawerk on May 24, 2015, 05:09:50 pmNo, we are going to connect a high impedance high voltage probe to it, and measure the voltage (~280 volts), no need for accurate measurements, just ensure we are in a voltage range for the test.David.

author: DavidDLC
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2015, 09:06:46 pm
content: Quote from: ivan747 on May 27, 2015, 08:54:29 pmIt is going to be an automated test, they will perform maintenance programs only to the units.David.

author: rx8pilot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2015, 10:16:14 pm
content: Quote from: DavidDLC on May 27, 2015, 09:04:35 pmWhy not use a DMM like the 34401A? If you are not needing specific measurements like rise time or jitter you may save some challenge by using a more appropriate tool.

author: DavidDLC
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 28, 2015, 01:48:19 am
content: Quote from: rx8pilot on May 27, 2015, 10:16:14 pmI proposed the same as you, but we need a high impedance probe, and the guys on the office already are using a probe that it only connects to oscilloscope.They have tried differential probes but they load the system, so we need to stick to it.David

author: XFDDesign
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 28, 2015, 01:51:01 am
content: You're unlikely to find a scope probe that is higher impedance than a 34410A DVM at 10MOhm.I agree with RX8Pilot, if you're measuring 280VAC line voltage, then the DVM would be a perfect use case. The same might even go for a Rigol Bench DMM if that floats your fancy and it meets spec, but between the Keygilent and Rigol for a production line, I would go with Agisight due to it having a long and healthy SCPI support system with all the standard buses installed out of the box. I fail to see how an Oscope would do the job.Edit: Looking at the only Rigol 6.5 digit dmm, it too has all the standard buses, so it just comes down to the software backend, which is where I would be concerned.

author: DavidDLC
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 28, 2015, 01:54:24 am
content: Quote from: XFDDesign on May 28, 2015, 01:51:01 amAs I mentioned we already have one that works for our purposes.David.

author: XFDDesign
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 28, 2015, 01:59:36 am
content: Ok so which is it?QuoteDo you need high impedance, or do you simply want to use equipment that you already have?There is still only trace amounts of information about the exact problem you're trying to solve here.280VAC measurement with as high impedance as possible, DMM. No need for a scope.Do you insist on the use of a scope? Then why and what for?

author: DavidDLC
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 28, 2015, 02:06:04 am
content: Quote from: XFDDesign on May 28, 2015, 01:59:36 amI hope you understand my next statement.I don't know how much information I can give about this, it is not my thing is company policy, I don't want to get in trouble.David.

author: rx8pilot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 28, 2015, 02:22:55 am
content: I give up.Parting words,If I had money on a production line (even a small one), I would not bother with a company that has a primary goal of being the cheapest option. I am not saying Rigol is useless or that the big boys have no faults. When building a high reliability system, it is rare that spending as little as possible up front will end up saving money. I have learned over many years how to analyze value over time. With that experience, I almost always end up buying the best brands and the higher-end models and usually spend less over time than the cheap up front alternatives.

author: DavidDLC
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 28, 2015, 02:35:42 am
content: Quote from: rx8pilot on May 28, 2015, 02:22:55 amIf you go back on the discussion you can see that I mentioned that I'm making the equipment proposal and I was thinking for Rigol as an option, if they are good enough to be used for production or not.I'm not saying I will use Rigol, I'm looking for it as an option where they can fit. I will not replace a cheap instrument when we need quality measurements.On the current equipment proposal we have equipment like Keysight E4980AL, Keithley 2015P, NI DAQs, LabView software and some other quality brands and some expensive ones.For some applications these instruments are overkill and a cheapest solution can be consider.I appreciate you are trying to help me with the equipment selection, I went with the engineers and asked them for alternatives to the high impedance high voltage probe and scope combination, they mentioned to me they have tried different settings and this one is the best for the immediate needs.David.