Choosing home lab equipment for an EE student - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: jassoul
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 02, 2017, 03:08:05 pm
content: Hello,Long time lurker, first-time poster here.I did a lot of searches before posting here but I still have some questions.Oscilloscope:The consensus seems that the ds1054z is the go-to oscilloscope for the task when on a budget and for the capabilities offered so I'm almost set on it unless I'm missing another option.Power Supply:I'm considering the Instek GPD-3303S (the one without the fault in the 3rd channel) but I'm wondering if there's anything else I Should be looking at.Function Generator:Through my research I stumbled upon the Rigol DG1022, however, what originally appealed to me was the 2nd channel but while looking through the specs it seems like the 2nd channel only supports 3v which I either don't understand properly or isn't enough for even the most basic projects I'm learning at school. I'm also worried about the 5Mhz limitation of the square wave, but truthfully I don't know if that's founded or not.I'm also after a nice 1/4w resistor kit, not too worried about amount per resistance value vs having more resistance values. I use 1 Ohm - 100 kOhm mostly but having some values between 100 kOhm and 1Mohm might be helpful too.Other than a multimeter and soldering station, which I already have (87v & hakko 888d) I'm wondering if you guys have some other ideas of equipment that may come in handy in the future.I'm looking at the main 3 listed above because those are the ones I know how to use for now and those are the ones that would allow me to practice school work at home and get started on my own little projects.Please keep in mind that I'm still in my 1st year so if I said something that doesn't make sense here I apologizeMy budget is around 2,000$ CDN (1600USD) and I'm in Montreal, Canada.Thank you all for your time,I look forward to being part of this great community!- Jonathan

author: Kleinstein
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 02, 2017, 03:32:41 pm
content: The Rigol scope is good enough for learning, so it the power supply. I don't know much about the generator, but usually one can get away with rather low frequencies for most parts.For other instruments, one can decide later - no need to buy everything at once. It helps if you know more before buying more and the prices for electronics are more like going down. It might be handy to have a reasonable size breadboard and parts as just need.As far as I see it, the main advantage of having a few instruments at home is, that one really learn on how to use such basic instruments. In this respect it might even be an advantage if they are not the very best - so one also learns about there limits and how to stretch them.Today another important tool is a computer and simulation software.

author: nugglix
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 02, 2017, 04:46:04 pm
content: Hmmm... maybe another multimeter?Would allow you to measure two things at the same time.Just as an idea.

author: beenosam
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 02, 2017, 05:01:08 pm
content: I'm an EE student in the same position as you. I started buying equipment over the last couple months.I own a GPD-3303S. It works pretty well, definitely no complaints. You can pick one up pretty cheap online at certain auction sites if you look for a bit. I got mine for less than $130 CAN.I got a DS1054Z recently and it works great, I would recommend it, if it suits your needs and your budget.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 02, 2017, 05:06:10 pm
content: What I bought and why...DS1054Z - as an addition to my Tek 485, this DSO is fantastic. If I need bandwidth, I use the 485. As an 'only' scope it will still be more than adequate. It can make a lot of measurements and my 485 makes none other than the traces. There is simply no comparison! I really like the 1054Z.SDG2082 signal generator - It's kind of a mid-price unit, more than $400, less than $1000. The max frequency will be adequate for my needs and I really like the display. Especially when I mix in some harmonics. I think you're supposed to look at the Rigol 1032 instead of the 1022. There are some comments about that on this forumhttps://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-dg1022a-function-gen-frequency-counter-function/msg949417/#msg949417Here's the Valentine's Day demo that sold me on the 2082:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/a-valentine's-day-activity-for-your-scope-and-function-generator/Other signal generators will allow harmonics as well. I just duplicated what the author used. Make sure whatever you buy will allow you to generate harmonics of arbitrary phase. Oddly, some of the higher $ units won't!DP832 power supply - well, why not? I can upgrade it to DP832A if I want, it has 3 outputs, the user interface is clean, the display shows what I need to know and the paint job matches my scope (not serious).It seems to me that you should make your budget but the exchange rate and any import fees might make it difficult. Anyway, let me make a suggestion: Look into the Digilent Analog Discovery. This $279 gadget ($300 in PRO configuration) will give you a lot of capability for not much $. Dual channel scope, dual channel arbitrary waveform generator, 16 channels of digital IO that can be used as a logic analyzer, dual power supply (voltage up to 5V, current is limited, read the specs) and some external trigger capability.For the experimenter, this is a very handy tool and some of the software features just aren't available on any scope. The network analyzer is my favorite tool because I can sweep a range of frequencies and get the Bode' plot of amplitude and phase versus frequency. Handy for filters and amplifiers.http://store.digilentinc.com/analog-discovery-2-pro-bundle/This thing was built for students! You can put it in your backpack along with a laptop or tablet (known to work on Win 10 Surface Book) and away you go. You can do your lab work at Starbucks! How cool is that? The power supplies are limited so having something like the DP832 might be very handy when you want to work on dual supply op amps. You will probably have to use single supply op amps at Starbucks!

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 02, 2017, 07:17:47 pm
content: As rstofer says the SDG2082X is a pretty nice AWG, its little brother the 2042X (40 MHz) being the forum favourite ATM as members have discovered how it can be hacked to 120 MHz.....but this is only its sinewave capability. Square wave capability stops at 25 MHz. Unlike some other manufacturers the 2nd channel has the same amplitude characteristics as Ch1.But the new kid on the block is SDG1000X series with both sine and square wave capability to the max frequency of the model. Looks the same as SDG2000X but with a few subtle differences.http://siglentamerica.com/pdxx.aspx?id=4705&T=2&tid=16

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 02, 2017, 07:25:33 pm
content: I like the GW Instek GPD-3303S PSU over the Rigol and Siglent ones because it can be bought cheap from Ebay nowadays (especially if you are in the US) and it has more readout resolution. Regarding the function generator I'd look at the ones from Feeltech like the FY3200S and FY2300.

author: jassoul
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 03, 2017, 04:04:17 am
content: Quote from: Kleinstein on March 02, 2017, 03:32:41 pmThank you for your advice, you're right it doesnt need to be all at onceQuote from: nugglix on March 02, 2017, 04:46:04 pmI think im at 3 now lol, i inherited a couple random ones that can act as backupsQuote from: beenosam on March 02, 2017, 05:01:08 pmI would love more details on what else you bought and where, especially if you're in canadaQuote from: rstofer on March 02, 2017, 05:06:10 pmthat psu and function gen look amazing, too bad its outside my budgetthe analog discovery thing looks cool though im definitely gonna check it outQuote from: tautech on March 02, 2017, 07:17:47 pmI'm gonna check all those out thank youQuote from: nctnico on March 02, 2017, 07:25:33 pmI didnt check that brand out yet, I will. Thank you

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 03, 2017, 04:10:40 am
content: The Rigol ds1074z comes with a function gen option. Compared to having a separate FG, the one on the scope makes you want to claw your eyes out with a fork but is fantastic for simple tasks where space or portability is a concern.

author: RGK
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 03, 2017, 04:30:52 am
content: Don't forget to look into the steeply discounted STUDENT price for the Analog Discovery. You'll need to provide proof of student status + course need.BK

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 03, 2017, 10:32:56 am
content: I haven't spotted your outlining your "use cases". They are always key, e.g. an ideal scope for audio work probably won't be an ideal scope for fast transition digital signals, nor for looking at PSU sequencing transients.The other question is always the "lost opportunity cost", i.e. if you spend money on X, whatwon'tyou be able to spend the money on. That becomes a very interesting question when your interests and understanding are evolving rapidly - which they should be when you are a student!At your stage it would be valuable to learn which is the right tool for the job at hand (yes, it is possible to insert wood screws with a hammer (and professionals do it), but it isn't ideal). For digital logic systems that meansusing a high speed scope (min 100MHz) to validate the voltages and relative timings of digital signals - "signal integrity". If the signals aren't valid digital signals then you need to get that right first. (Don't forget the cost of the probes, and don't use 6" ground leads!)debugging digital signals in the digital domain, using protocol analyser or printf statementsFor RF signals it means a spectrum analyser rather than a scope.As others have said, the student Analog Discovery is pretty unbeatable value for money, because you get 100MS/s protocol analyser and signal generator, a 10MHz scope and signal/AWG generator, and software for bode plots, nyquist diagrams, and FFT based spectrum analyser. That's great for audio/mechatronics stuff, and I've also used mine to capture PSU startup sequences.But it won't do the signal integrity - for that I prefer my Tek 485 and decent probes, but I would expect a hacked DS1054Z is just about adequate (and smaller plus more easily shipped!).

author: jassoul
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 05, 2017, 09:15:56 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on March 03, 2017, 10:32:56 amthats because i dont really have one tbh, I want to be able to do my school work at home, like view steady state of a capacitor / inductor / sequential circuit analysis and troubleshooting frequencies.Also want to work on some little personal projects such as building arduino stuff & making myself a home made function generator to practice concepts learnt in class.I think that I definitely want dedicated tools that'll follow me throughout my education as a technologist & then engineer.I've been trying to find other options for the power supply but it seems like the instek is way above the curve in terms of price vs features. Am i mistaken there? are there others i should be looking at?im almost decided on the scope too, there again I dont see anything matching its specs vs its price.In terms of the function generator, i think ill wait for that as I dont see myself using it as often as the rest.Do you guys have any recommendation for protective matting for the desk that I can solder on / acts as ESD mat?thank you all for your replies I really appreciate it

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 05, 2017, 10:28:07 pm
content: Points to ponder, not answers...Tools will get cheaper/better over time; delay can lead to a different choice.Engineers don't worry about price:performance ratios. Instead they use skill and imagination to work out what is the minimum that will meet the objectives.Every piece of equipment has a learning curve, and the time required is a very definite cost. In this respect, simpler is better than more complex.Giving a right answer is easy. It is more important to determine the right question, and to determine when a question must be answered.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2017, 04:24:52 am
content: You certainly can't do all the textbook problems regardless of your equipment list. The numbers are sometimes gigantic - 100A, 400V, other such nonsense where all the book is trying to do is demonstrate the math, not a realizable circuit.Scale the problems! If the circuit uses Ohms and Amps, change it to k-ohms and milliamps. You would also have to scale the C and L values.Every once in awhile, textbook problems can be modeled.One problem with the Analog Discovery is that everybody who looks at it thinks it's some kind of toy. A joke... I'm not going to say that it replaces my discrete test equipment but it could. If all I had was the AD, I could do a whole lot of electronics. I suppose it is useless for the motors, rotors and dynamos class and probably even field theory but it can handle the rest. It replaces an entire bench worth of discrete tools and, up to its limits, it does a better job than most. For example, if you really want a Bode Plot, there is no practical way to get it with discrete equipment.You can make a half-assed attempt at a Bode Plot on a scope but: Neither axis will be logarithmic, frequency will be unknown and the -3dB point will be buried in the first 1/4" of trace. The whole point of the Bode Plot is to plot dB vs logarithmic frequency - we want the dB fall-off in decades of frequency.Going to be working on filters, tuned amplifiers, just ordinary amplifiers? You will want Bode Plots. Oh, and you did want the plot labeled, scaled and suitable to turn in for credit, right? Good luck with that on a scope!And what do you do for digital IO? Maybe you want some buttons and LEDs. Now, to be perfectly honest, the AD wants to work with 3.3V logic so get two logic level shifters from Adafruit - $1.50 each. Put them on a breadboard and wire one for Arduino inputs and the other for Arduino outputs. Now you are covered, the logic signals to and from the AD are at the proper level in all cases.Maybe you want to simulate something that requires a parallel digital pattern - a discrete state machine or some other digital project? Good luck with that. Sure, there are logic analyzers all over the place but not so many pattern generators.The list of stuff the AD can do that requires more than a barn full of discrete equipment is exhaustive. It is not a toy and it is not a joke. It is a serious piece of equipment. If i were going to school, I would certainly have one. Unfortunately, my college days are long past.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2017, 05:19:46 am
content: You might consider buying tools as you find you need them rather than collecting a bunch of equipment you may not really use much. All you really need for sure is a decent multimeter and soldering station. A power supply comes in handy but you can get a surprising amount done with a handful of salvaged wall wart adapters and power supplies make quite good beginner projects, they were some of the first things I built. At some point you'll probably want a scope, but you may not need anything fancy. Other tools you can pick up as you go along. More important than having a lot of tools is knowing how to properly use the tools you have and get the most out of them.

author: jassoul
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2017, 11:45:37 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on March 06, 2017, 05:19:46 amThe reasoning behind the psu is that as a beginner I tend to make mistakes in wiring which causes shorts and such and Id rather not have the magical blue smoke escape every time that happens (or have to replace fuses) and it also gives me a instant visual representation that theres an error. I can also control current for other purposes as to prevent damaging in components in case of other mistakes.But I agree with you that buy as you go is definitely the way to go.I'm 100% sure on the oscilloscope I want, given that I cant see anything that gets anywhere near its specs for the price & number of channels.But for the rest (func. gen etc) I think im gonna wait until I have a better understanding of my needs and then go for it.Quote from: rstofer on March 06, 2017, 04:24:52 amAt first I was thrown off cause of the price, but it seems like an education one is available for around 150 which is really not bad, definitely something to consider with an open mind.Thank you all that are taking the time to help me its greatly appreciated.So far I'm equipped with:Fluke 87vHakko fx-888d (looking into which tips I need) probably gonna start off with a chisel tipConsidering:ESD Matting (rubber 2 layer)DS1054z (will probably get that as my next component)atten 858d+ hot air rework, (thoughts?)GW Instek GPD-3303S DC Power Supply (without 3rd channel fault)for the function generator, i think im gonna make it a personal project to try to design a very simple square wave one, and try to improve it as i go along. it probably wont be anywhere near as good as something comercially available but i think its a fun project that puts into practice a lot of concepts im currently learning about

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2017, 12:01:27 am
content: I like my Atten 858D+ hot air and I'm using it for serious rework jobs but then again I have not used any other brand of hot air station. I have a spare 858D+ on hand because I can't do without a hot air station.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2017, 12:21:44 am
content: Hot air is very nice for rework and repair, but I've known a lot of engineers who never did any of that, they had lab techs for rework. If it's something you intend to do then hot air is great.Function generator is easy, there are all sorts of options there. Used to be anyway there was a single IC that was a full function generator up to something like 20MHz with just a few external parts. Now there are cheap DDS boards and of course you can build something from scratch with a 555 and/or some op amps. Won't be fancy but it's a start.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2017, 02:56:48 am
content: Or buy the FG085 kit and assemble it. The waveform is a little noisy but it has some really nice features and the UI is pretty good.https://www.amazon.com/Function-Generator-DIY-Tech-FG085/dp/B00C5UO8U6A bit of soldering is required...200 kHz waveform here:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/should-i-buy-a-bk-precision-4017a-function-generator/msg1152196/#msg1152196Square waves are easy to generate. In most cases, an Arduino can do a good job. Frequency selection may be limited.Sine waves are a lot harder to generate without some kind of DDS. It's pretty easy to filter the fundamental out of a square wave but if the frequency changes, so do the requirements for the filter. There are projects on the Internet. Some work better than others.There's an Arduino project that uses PWM to generate a sine wave and it works pretty well. Forgot where I found it.

author: jassoul
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2017, 11:40:18 pm
content: Ordered the ds1054z, itll be here tomorrow, cant wait!I was wondering what's the maximum you guys would pay for that PSU? (Instek GPD-3303S)keeping in mind that shipping to me will cost 60-80$ canadian (50$ USD)Quote from: rstofer on March 07, 2017, 02:56:48 amthanks for the advice, but I wanna use that as a learning project dont wanna buy something ready-madeQuote from: james_s on March 07, 2017, 12:21:44 amI'm not an engineer yetand I like to tinkerQuote from: nctnico on March 07, 2017, 12:01:27 amsounds like its worth putting on the listthank you

author: JenniferG
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 08, 2017, 12:40:43 pm
content: Quote from: rstofer on March 02, 2017, 05:06:10 pmWould be nice if Analog Discovery Waveforms software worked on iPad as well, but just searched and it doesn't look like itThumbs up for the surface. Apple could of done similar thing with Mac OS X on iPad, but they want to control everything. Heard WaveForms software works on Mac OS X.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 08, 2017, 03:47:10 pm
content: Waveforms does run on my Surface Book (and I suspect the Surface Pro) but when I use it I also plug in to a 27" monitor.I have even split the Book display so I can have the signal generator on the Book display and the scope on the 27" display.Waveforms runs on Windows, Linux and Max OSX and Linux on ARM (that might be cool!).

author: gnavigator1007
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 08, 2017, 04:22:26 pm
content: Quote from: jassoul on March 07, 2017, 11:40:18 pmLooks like prices have gone up since I sold the last of mine. Lowest I sold for was $102.50 + shipping, highest was $125 + shipping. Still, for what it is I would say it's a decent deal as long as you don't spend over $200 including shipping. I'd shoot for around $175 with shipping. Honestly, I would have spent more at one time for my personal use, but many went for really cheap. A few sellers still accepting best offer, but looks like most are running out of these supplies. One seller still has a mixed lot of 100 (some with the overshoot issue) but he's asking over $15,000 lol. Curious to see what happens to prices if he ends up breaking the lot up into smaller auctions. There may still be someone sitting on a bunch of these that hasn't listed them yet, but I do think they're probably running out.

author: JenniferG
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 08, 2017, 10:54:13 pm
content: Quote from: gnavigator1007 on March 08, 2017, 04:22:26 pmI won one in auction a couple weeks ago for about $150 shipped.