Adelaide dad’s $240,000 18-month Tesla Powerwall nightmare - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 27, 2022, 12:35:13 pm
content: InsaneWhy install that many power walls and go completely off-grid in suburbia?Why not just rip up the garden and install extra street capacity?He's presumably home all day to use this insane amount of power, so just install the panels. Maybe one or two batteries to use excess power at night.https://www.couriermail.com.au/technology/innovation/im-sick-of-this-adelaide-dads-240000-18month-tesla-nightmare/news-story/3ee7702c7ec44bde25152585d267394eQuote

author: SpecialK
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2022, 03:06:30 pm
content: I don't get it. Sounds like a stupid plan. Pay $220.000 upfront to save $10.000 per year? That's 22 year ROI if everything goes well. Yeah electricity would likely increase in price, but the loan probably isn't 0% interest. Maintenance costs and all the risk is yours.I'm surprised the solar loan allows off-grid and doesn't require it to be grid-tied.

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2022, 03:46:47 pm
content: Insane? Maybe, but it's an interesting experiment. It's good someone buys these systems and report how it works out, even if it's not the optimum choice for them. Similarly, early adopters bought EVs before they were really usable, even if gas guzzlers were better suited to their needs. And it's good they did.I would concentrate on the story about Tesla Powerwall itself. It sounds like this is another failure of firmware designed by software guys.Actually insane points:* Parallel inverter load sharing controlled by something where "CPU and RAM usage" is even a thingHow it should be done, then? Obviously using a microcontroller, with statically allocated memory and specified maximum number of units it can control, with timing verified during firmware development. If it needs a physical bus like CAN or RS485, then this is what you add to the product. This is a task you cannot do through Internet. (I don't know if they try to do that, but that would explain the problems).* Firmware update requiring 50 power cycles and 4-8 hours.This is all everyday work for firmware developers, 1-2 person team can do this job in 3 months just fine. But if the story is even remotely true, it appears Tesla either does not have firmware developers, or they are not allowed to do big enough part of the project without the software team messing up the whole thing.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2022, 04:00:05 pm
content: QuoteAt first glance yea it sounds stupid,but thenQuoteHow much was increasing the supply going to cost?that may eat up a chunk of the 22K if its anything like uk prices, especially if its going from single to 3 phase

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2022, 04:10:46 pm
content: A classic, beta testing performed by the customer. However, in this case it's not just a gadget, it's serious stuff with the potential of a lot of magic smoke.

author: Stray Electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2022, 06:47:14 pm
content: He said "“At the beginning there were actually only three 10-Powerwall installs in the world that were off-grid,” he said. “ probably have the exact same problem.”Probably? or they DO have the same problem?So the buyer bought the fourth 10 PowerCell system ever sold and was willing to fork over $240,000? It sounds like he wanted to be a Guinea pig.He also claims that commercial power would have costs him $10,000 per year. Is that even possible with only a 63 Amp power feed? My older home has 100 Amp service and everything build in the US in the last ~30 years has at least 200 Amp service.

author: boB
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2022, 07:01:08 pm
content: Just needs to add solar panels to his driveways and sidewalks !

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 27, 2022, 07:05:50 pm
content: Quote from: Siwastaja on November 27, 2022, 03:46:47 pmIMHO it sounds more like those who installed and/or serviced the thing are a bunch of monkeys who couldn't figure out what actually causes the problem and blamed everything on firmware. I've seen such sort of technicians who considered repeated flashing of a smartphone which gets back after a month a valid repair.

author: janoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2022, 07:46:02 pm
content: Quote from: Siwastaja on November 27, 2022, 03:46:47 pmWell, I have seen a lot of firmware designed by the "hardware guys" that wasn't working or fit for purpose at all. So such jabs are a bit cheap.For me this sort of problem with yet another Tesla product only shows a general company culture problem. Many people like their cars and the company has a fanatical following second only to Apple.However, the shoddy manufacturing quality, poor material choices, questionable quality of software compounded by very questionable business practices, such as disabling features in resold vehicles that had them and using paying customers as unpaid and unaware beta testers are very well known. As is the horrific/non-existent customer support.So given that the Powerwalls are made by the same company, why is this surprising anyone?If you speak German, here is a one year old Model Y with about 76000km on the odo that wouldn't pass the TüV inspection anymore - i.e. not roadworthy/can't be driven. Only legal because the German law requires TüV check for new cars only after 4 years. All this because of 8 major faults/worn out pieces, requiring a fairly expensive undercarriage repair work to be done. The owner wanted the car checked because the Tesla warranty is 4 years or 80 000km, whichever comes first.And this sort of "Tesla quality" is common knowledge already (Youtube is full of horror stories, including how Tesla refuses to fix the problems). Yes, 76000km in a year is a lot but in Germany that's about a 150km daily commute to work and back. A lot of people do that and other cars do hold up to the abuse, not requiring ball joint replacement at 80k km.

author: srb1954
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2022, 08:06:46 pm
content: Quote from: Stray Electron on November 27, 2022, 06:47:14 pmQuite possible. Remember this is in Australia where they have a 240V supply so this expenditure (at A$0.30 per unit) would only require an average 16A current draw on a continuous 24/7 usage basis.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2022, 08:31:59 pm
content: Quote from: srb1954 on November 27, 2022, 08:06:46 pmVirtually the entire world including the USA has a 240V supply, the standard domestic service in the US is 200A at 240V. The only major difference is that we have a split supply with a grounded center tap so most branch circuits are 120V, it's still a 240V suppl.16A continuous draw is quite a lot. the article mentioned home business though so I suspect he's got a rack of servers or something.

author: John B
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2022, 08:59:28 pm
content: No way a 3 phase cable + board upgrade would have cost that much to install. But I suspect getting in an earth moving company was needed, which would make up a lot of the cost.This is my concern with these all-in-one black box solutions. When stuff like this happens, no one can provide any solutions except the manufacturer - IF they provide a solution at all.I have wonder what his actual electrical demands were, peak and average. If his average power draw was <4kW from the 16A guess, there's quite a range of low frequency inverters that could work. I know of one place in Sydney that will do up to 12kW nominal, 36kW peak inverters coupled to 48V battery banks. They take solar and generator inputs too.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2022, 09:04:36 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on November 27, 2022, 08:31:59 pmQuoteHomeOffice

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 27, 2022, 09:08:30 pm
content: Quote from: SpecialK on November 27, 2022, 03:06:30 pmYep. Zero value in it apart from the wank factor saying you are off-grid.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 27, 2022, 09:09:26 pm
content: Quote from: Someone on November 27, 2022, 09:04:36 pmWhy disconnect from the grid?

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2022, 09:12:15 pm
content: Quote from: John B on November 27, 2022, 08:59:28 pmEven then, you can also have a tube pushed underground if you want to preserve a garden & avoid landscaping costs. Likely the guy isn't too clever and got himself talked into a super expensive solution for which the technology is still in it's infancy stage. AFAIK the Tesla powerwalls are insanely expensive as well compared to other battery storage systems. It would not surprise me if you can buy a similar solar + storage system for a lower price AND that actually works.Still, getting a bigger mains feed sounds like a much better option to me. At least the solar panels can offload excess energy to the grid. The grid is a pretty cheap battery.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 27, 2022, 09:13:43 pm
content: Quote from: srb1954 on November 27, 2022, 08:06:46 pmHe's got a 240V/60A single phase supply same as mine you've seen in my solar videos.$10k/year is 40,000kWh/year @ 25c supply cost.That's 110kWh/day or 4.5kW (18.8A) continuous 24/7/365

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2022, 09:16:49 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on November 27, 2022, 09:13:43 pmJust a question out of interest: the cable that runs to your home (or -let's say- a typical, reasonably modern home in a city in Australia), is that a single phase cable or is it already prepared for a 3 phase connection as well?

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 27, 2022, 09:18:29 pm
content: Quote from: themadhippy on November 27, 2022, 04:00:05 pmIf he needed that amount of reliable power 24hrs a day then you get the grid connection upgraded, no if's no butts. Trying to get that with solar and batteries and going completely off-grid is the dumbest choice possible.

author: John B
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2022, 09:28:29 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on November 27, 2022, 09:16:49 pmThe power lines above or below ground servicing the neighbourhood will have 3 phases, then you have to liaise with the power company* for them to attach your point-of-attachment on your property to the power lines with either a single or 3 phase cable.Plus you need a board upgrade, each phase is protected with a fuse and the power meter needs to be changed from single to 3 phase.*Technically the company that owns the infrastructure, not necessarily the company that bills you for your power usage.

author: John B
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2022, 09:50:07 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on November 27, 2022, 09:09:26 pmDid he fully disconnect from the grid though? I can imagine the owner being advised that if he wanted X amount of power outlets on Y amount of circuits and breakers, that to meet standard he would have to have a 200A peak demand supply even if he no where uses that in regular usage.At least as a concept it's not crazy to have a dedicated circuit to run some equipment, especially if it comes in at around 4kW average demand, with a battery bank being able to supply high peak power for a short time. Not sure how standards apply in this case.The guy definitely got upsold on this system though.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2022, 10:47:42 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on November 27, 2022, 09:09:26 pmThats was just clearing up that its not a home office worker, but some much more complex mixture of business(s) on the same site with the house. Sending home workers is crossing over into commercial operations rather than home office.There are huge pieces of important information missing from the article, mostly what is using all that power! There is probably some peak load (pool pump is mentioned) where the combined use exceeded the 63A feed and instead of being intelligent and spreading that load out over the day/night the owner got hard sold the power walls (government loan/subsidy may have been a big incentive to make the books look nice). An aerial photo of the property would probably be a start, see if there is a large number of inefficient HVAC loads + floor area + size of pool etc.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2022, 10:51:38 pm
content: Quote from: John B on November 27, 2022, 09:50:07 pmExactly, the average draw is somewhere in the 5-10kW region which is a fairly high load fraction of a "normal" 15kW supply. Poor demand management from the owner (other regions/countries are much more aggressive on peak demand charging/limiting).

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 27, 2022, 10:52:10 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on November 27, 2022, 09:16:49 pmMost houses are single phase connection. They have to pull or install new cabling if you wanted three phase.IIRC they banned new home 3 phase aircons and those under certain efficiency star ratings.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 27, 2022, 10:58:11 pm
content: The Reddit thread from the owner:https://old.reddit.com/r/teslamotors/comments/z07nh4/10x_tesla_powerwall_failure_offgrid_setup/And his Youtube channel:https://www.youtube.com/@AttackLabsHe has a 28kW pool heat pump

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2022, 10:58:31 pm
content: Quote from: Someone on November 27, 2022, 10:47:42 pmSeems he may be running some computer equipmentQuote

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 27, 2022, 11:00:01 pm
content: Answers to questions:

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 27, 2022, 11:04:13 pm
content: Haven't watched it, but an update from a year ago:Looks like he's doing mining:QuoteI still come back to the main issues of power outages, it was crazy to disconnect from the grid when he didn't have to. He's into home automation and has custom load controllers. He could have kept the existing grid for the base load and used the solar for some peak load. And he could obviously disconnect the crypto miners.

author: johnboxall
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 27, 2022, 11:08:48 pm
content: Five minutes of googling would have found him a professional system such as a dropbear or copperhead plus a genset for rainy weeks. And he could have a direct line to the designers in Australia.https://redearth.energy/products/copper-head/

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 27, 2022, 11:13:45 pm
content: Quote from: johnboxall on November 27, 2022, 11:08:48 pmYeah, so many other options, and several of them local. For issues of this scale if it was a local company it's likely the designer would have personally come out to investigate.Who uses a Tesla for off-grid of this scale? It's aimed at high end grid connected homes.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 27, 2022, 11:27:21 pm
content: My guess is that he saw the government loan program and figured:a) that he could go absolutely crazy installing an insane system that would provide free power for the crypto miners (and other stuff of course)b) Save cost on the grid connection upgrade if he simply went completely off-grid, which in theory should have worked.c) The crypto profits would pay the loan back and he gets a free (or muc lower cost) kick arse solar systemd) Chose Tesla because he's a fanBut crypto has collapsed and he's stuck with a hideously unreliable system few if any people had experience installing on such an off-grid scale.From the Yotube video description:QuoteThey offered to reconnect him to the grid for reliability but he didn't take them up on it. Why? Because he seems to want to dick around with an off-grid system and make it work.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2022, 11:37:00 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on November 27, 2022, 11:27:21 pmI actually mined crypto for a few years using my surplus solar power, since Edison only paid a pittance for the year-end net surplus. I don't see why going off-grid would help that use-case as the money would be better spent on more solar and less backup, allowing for the crypto operation to suspend if the power goes out. I had mine timed to automatically ramp up during low power cost times and idle otherwise.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 27, 2022, 11:45:21 pm
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on November 27, 2022, 11:37:00 pmIt was a government loan, so he didn't have to pony up all the cost up front. Maybe figured the crypto profits would repay the loan and bingo, cheap system.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 28, 2022, 12:12:12 am
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on November 27, 2022, 11:37:00 pmI agree. It would be interesting to know what he paid for the Tesla powerwall batteries. If he paid the price that is listed on Tesla's website, then he is looking at a price around US $0,50 per kWh just for storage costs. But likely he didn't read the fine print about the warranty and expected usefull battery life.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 28, 2022, 03:48:23 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on November 27, 2022, 11:45:21 pmI've been saying for years that the collapse of crypto was not if but when, and if the economy goes down the toilet crypto will be completely worthless rather than becoming more useful. It has always felt like a fad, I'm kind of shocked it has gone on as long as it has. I hate to think of all the gigawatts of energy it has consumed and millions of tons of carbon it has released into the atmosphere.

author: Black Phoenix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 28, 2022, 03:35:33 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on November 28, 2022, 03:48:23 amTotally true, but a lot gone for the easy money - making money from nothing, and some done a ton.I have a family friend who was my neighbour here. His wife left him for another man and he said screw it.He sold his apartment, quit his Tencent job and moved to his hometown in rural China. There he rented a warehouse and for 7 years (during the boom of Bitcoin and Etherium) invested in equipment and mined 24/7, taking advantage of the cheaper energy prices of his prefecture.When things staring coming down, he sold all his investment and coins, made a ton of money, got married again with a childhood girl from the same town and moved back to Shenzhen.He now lives in a Mansion in Yantian, close to the mountains (5 min away from me), his wife have a law degree done in the US (she's a consultant for international companies wanting to do business in China) and him being an IT guy open his own company also providing consultancy (I've done some work for him in laying cable and server racking and configuration).Currently he is waiting for the first kid and have a better life that he only could dream about some years ago. But for his sucess case a ton of failures exist worldwide.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 28, 2022, 04:49:51 pm
content: That's probably the worst designed system that I saw in a long time. What's that, 10 x 5KW inverters?Took the pricing of the 5KW SMA sunnyboy: 1300 EUR, 25KW SMA sunnyboy: 2600 EUR. Instead let's spend 2.5x as much on the inverters, and let's have a lot of them. The more the better. I want more of everything.Hybrid inverters? No, what's that. Let's have a separate box, right next to the inverters.This was a guy, taking up useful solar incentives ordering an oversized, under engineered system so he can use it to mine a crypto fad (because Chia was that) that was pumped by chinese speculators. Now that his fake coin dumped from 1600 USD to 30 USD, he is desperately trying to get back out of the hole that he dig. First rule of crypto investment, don't invest that you cannot lose.

author: electr_peter
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 28, 2022, 08:11:43 pm
content: Ignoring monetary aspect, from technical point of view it is really not optimal to construct higher power system from small components when one bigger would do. It is like attaching 5 small trailers to a passenger car to move some stuff instead of renting mid size cargo truck.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 28, 2022, 11:46:48 pm
content: Quote from: tszaboo on November 28, 2022, 04:49:51 pmYeah, I would have gone with hybrid interters each with their own battery system (or even just some of them), all independent but grid connected.In subirbia here in Australia the grid is pretty darn reliable. A whole house AC backup is nice to think about having, but so rarely needed that it's silly to even try at this scale. Just have an emergency power outlet and wiring for emergency items in case of power failure.This is why only remote properties have off-grid solutions, because they don't have the grid. And hardly any of them use Tesla, as there are heaps of robust proven large scale off-grid solutions available, several of which are aussie designed and made.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 29, 2022, 12:01:53 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on November 28, 2022, 11:46:48 pmI'd imagine that at high power levels the inverters will have trouble to keep sync with a grid connection which can transport several timeslessenergy than the installed solar system.edit: fixed typo in bold

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 29, 2022, 12:19:14 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on November 29, 2022, 12:01:53 amWhy is that? What's the difference between 10 houses on a street with one hybrid inverter each vs 10 on the same house in terms of sync?

author: Circlotron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 29, 2022, 02:09:52 am
content: Quote from: John B on November 27, 2022, 08:59:28 pmAnd that 4kW would eventually end up as heat. Must have a lot of ventilation happening. I wonder how noisy his property is when going full swing, both from the ventilation and the devices consuming all that power?

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 29, 2022, 02:31:54 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on November 29, 2022, 12:19:14 amThe impedance of the cable feeding the houses. The cable that runs through the street from which the homes a branched off will be much thicker so no real problems there. The impedance of a cable designed for -say- 63A might be too high to sync 200A of hybrid inverters. Even when most of the power is consumed at the location of the solar panels AND the power fed into the grid cable is limited, there still is a very low impedance, local node where the hybrid inverters push their power into. At least this is something I'd thouroughly check.BTW: fixed my typo in my text. It seems you have interpreted the sentence correctly though.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 29, 2022, 03:14:50 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on November 29, 2022, 02:31:54 amI thought the point was this person/setup in question was entirely off grid, so had no external sync.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 29, 2022, 05:24:02 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on November 29, 2022, 02:31:54 amSure. You'd upgrade the capacity to the street, or maybe just not have as much solar installed. Or maybe have an independent battery system for extra loads. Or...There were plenty of options and he chose the one that would be most likely to give him power outages if anything went wrong. And then struggled with it for a year and half, and refused a free reconnection back the grid when offered to sort out the power outages.

author: John B
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 29, 2022, 05:56:18 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on November 29, 2022, 05:24:02 amYeah but 0.135MW of off-grid battery and solar is some giant e-peen.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 29, 2022, 10:58:56 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on November 29, 2022, 12:01:53 amWhen the inverter is producing power, it increases the voltage. It has a voltage limit built in, so if the voltage goes 230V+5% (or whatever the local voltage standard is) then it reduces the output power to stay within the limit. This is a legal requirement for all inverters. Now, if you have 10 inverters in parallel, then suddenly you have 10 control algorithm fighting against each other to export as much power as possible. I don't think I need to tell you why this is a worse than having two inverters trying to do the same. Number of poles and zeros in a control system?Quote from: EEVblog on November 29, 2022, 12:19:14 amThere is a non negligible impedance between those inverters, dampening the system. What you end up with is: The house closest to the feed is going to export 100%, and the one further away will export 0%.I've seen the math on this. I was working on a project years ago, where the idea was to control this excess power to generate imaginary currents and stabilizing the grid. Controlling the inverter with RS485. This "too much sun" is a small issue in Belgium, I think it was estimated that 5% of the installations loose more than 150 EUR per year because... the grid operator refuses to upgrade the cabling or transformers.

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 29, 2022, 03:53:21 pm
content: The maximum voltage for feeding the grid is 230V *1.1 = 253V over here. If this voltage is exceeded inverters have to shut down to prevent damages. The resistance of the local power distribution grid and each building's power connection helps to regulate things within limits. Besides that, the electricity supplier (or operator of the local power grid) defines how much kW can be fed in by each PV system without overloading house connections or the local grid. But wIth heat pumps and EVs I'd guess that we have to upgrade the power grid anyway.

author: trobbins
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 29, 2022, 11:30:33 pm
content: One aspect of interaction can be the mechanism that the PV inverters use to determine there is a valid grid to feed into. As an example, SMA PV inverters afaik use a technique that stops exporting power for a short portion of a mains cycle, and monitors the response of the grid during that time to confirm a valid connection. That 'disturbance' from the PV inverters caused an unforeseen oscillatory kVAR response from co-located battery inverters in a grid connected system. The response was related to the number of battery inverters on-line, and was able to be somewhat alleviated by modifying the control system of the battery inverters, but not stopped.I'm not aware of what technique Fronius use, and in this Tesla system it looks like there are unresolved issues without any PV involved. But it may not take much to alter a stable operation used by the manufacturer to confirm acceptable operation, compared to field installation differences coming into play (like as suggested the different distances from the common AC bus to each battery inverter - as compared to placing the distribution bus in the middle and using equal length feed cables to each battery inverter).

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 29, 2022, 11:47:13 pm
content: Quote from: trobbins on November 29, 2022, 11:30:33 pmI think that in the end synchronisation to the grid by using the grid itself turns out to be a less and less useful method for solar inverters (and other distributed renewable energy sources). At some point a seperate synchronisation signal will be needed (and no, not through something wireless you can jam/spoof like GPS). Grid operators in the US are already looking at resillient ways to synchronise devices feeding the grid.

author: trobbins
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 30, 2022, 12:36:30 am
content: nctnico, synchronisation is one issue. The aspect I was referring to related to the anti-islanding mechanism that is mandated for PV inverters - perhaps that is also what you were referring to ?

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 30, 2022, 12:46:41 am
content: Quote from: trobbins on November 30, 2022, 12:36:30 amThat is another facet of problems related to having distributed generation. The anti-islanding feature is requires needing to check the grid for being there. But either this has to be fed in as a seperate signal, a signal modulated onto mains by the grid and/or a certain method (one that doesn't cause problems) has to be mandated. At this moment it looks like this issue is addressed in several ways which may not be optimal; improvements will need to be made.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 30, 2022, 02:04:08 am
content: a electric blacksmith or ceramic manufacturer can use that much power. Interesting to think about if you are making parts from boron nitride or special coatings etc. Or metal recycling. I think its feasible for someone to make DIY alloys in bulk so long they have the metallurgic laboratory. Perhaps someone is tired of being gouged on super alloys.

author: DenzilPenberthy
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 30, 2022, 11:23:47 am
content: This system looks like it would be pretty trivial to implement with a few Victron inverter/chargers ganged together that have the 'PowerAssist' feature. His usage on average is well well below his grid supply. If he needs 200A on occasion then the PowerAssist can be set to take 60A max from the grid and supplement it by drawing from batteries, then recharge batteries once demand drops and there is spare grid capacity (plus feed in to batteries from solar etc). Wouldn't cost anywhere near $240k for that.

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 30, 2022, 08:01:51 pm
content: Quote from: electr_peter on November 28, 2022, 08:11:43 pmTrue and false. It really depends. It is very very usual to parallel smaller power conversion modules. Even large ones are often internally constructed from smaller modules. Car analogies are nice, but in actual technology real technological details matter, near-zero switching impedance is hard to deal with, and smaller converters can utilize off-the-shelf components.Too small, and you need too many, and it gets too expensive - but just the Right Size, and properly designed ground-up to be paralleled, and you can sell the optimum solution to everyone, in form of one product, which drives costs down compared to one massive product which remains niche and sold in small numbers.A better car analogy: look at a large semi truck or trailer. Why do you think they have maybe 8 or 10 tires, even 12? Sometimes 4 on a single axis. Surely a car only needs one in each corner?

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 30, 2022, 11:07:22 pm
content: Quote from: Siwastaja on November 30, 2022, 08:01:51 pmOr engine cylinders. It's possible to make a very large single cylinder engine and in the past that was fairly common, but now typically when you need more power the solution is to increase the number of cylinders working on a common crankshaft.

author: f4eru
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 01, 2022, 01:08:15 am
content: Quote from: james_s on November 30, 2022, 11:07:22 pmYep, true, but that is largely obsolete now, as cars are quickly evolving from 4-cylinder power to 3-phase powerNow that is real power !

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 01, 2022, 01:30:22 am
content: Quote from: f4eru on December 01, 2022, 01:08:15 amThe same principal applies. Rather than one or even a few huge batteries, they use hundreds of small batteries and increase the number when more power or range is needed.

author: Stray Electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2023, 06:38:20 pm
content: And Tesla is even using dual electric motors now.Big isn't always better.

author: bidrohini
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2023, 01:37:57 am
content: Very sad. Sounds like there are so many hidden ifs and buts in Tesla's claim.