Li-Polymer Battery Pack Discovery....Almost exploded. - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / beginners

author: Falcon69
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 15, 2016, 07:43:26 pm
content: Okay, so I've been having trouble getting the battery to charge in my Laptop. And now it seems I can't even get the laptop to turn on at all. Before I had to sit there and play with the on/off switch for awhile until it kicked on.So, I took the battery apart, as it wasn't holding to the case anymore and it was 'bubbled',Here's what I found... (pics below)So, A new battery Pacl for this laptop is $280 USDPretty spendy, and the dang battery pack when new only ran the laptop for about a 1/2 hour anyway. It's a High Performance gaming laptop, that draws a crap load of power. So I usually have it plugged in when playing anyway.So, My question is...can I buy some larger batteries that have more mAh to them, and just get 3 3.7volt ones? That will make the 11.1v as before. (see battery Tag I cut off).I'm sure I need to keep the existing circuit board. I think it is the charging board for the battery pack that stays in communication with the laptop itself.Can I just solder some wire leads using maybe some 14ga wire to the mainboard....Unsoldering the existing leads of course.Does the temp sensor vital? Should I extend that to a new case (which will sit outside the laptop) and enclose the temperature taped to the top of one of the batteries like before. I figured I would solder it all to a heavy duty 6-pin quick connect connector. 2 wires for the temp sensor, and 4 for the battery leads as shown.So, I was thinking maybe thesehttp://www.ebay.com/itm/2x-3-7V-12000mAh-LiPo-Li-Polymer-Rechargeable-Battery-for-Power-Bank-10-74-135mm-/221237093456?hash=item3382c22450:g:r8kAAMXQhpdRsD~Ofor the Batteries, and thishttp://www.ebay.com/itm/1Set-WS20-6Pin-20mm-Panel-Mount-Metal-Aviation-Connector-Threaded-Coupling-/331889065442?hash=item4d46213de2:g:nqEAAOSwi0RXyqWofor the connector? Maybe a case like thishttp://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-DIY-Aluminum-Project-Box-Enclosure-Electronic-case-Black-160x95x41mm-L-W-H-/230965971698?hash=item35c6a50af2:m:mrGhbmy589KrRZyXjqW-EXAto house it all.So what do you think? Would this work? The cost of the replacement battery is expensive, and only 3800mAh, the new would have 12,000 mAh if it works. Sure I have to haul around another box with the laptop, but I don't mind that. It will fit in it's case the laptop fits in, along with the power Pack.Can the batteries be stacked on top of each other without problem? If so, should they be separated by a piece of plastic or aluminum?One more thing, I guess I got lucky, but while trying to cut the soldered tabs off the batteries, they didn't explode, but did kinda smell like a chemical escaped. I didn't see anything leak out though and they did NOT get hot. But just to be safe, I threw them outside in the snow. How do I go about getting rid of those? I assume dropping them in the trash is just a bad idea. Take them to the dump and drop them off at the hazmat section?

author: ayrex
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 15, 2016, 11:26:01 pm
content: Uh wow! The upper teabag looks like well expanded.I can't recommend to solder these things directly. Maybe if you buy some with point welded solder pads.If you use batteries with a higher capacity you should ensure (anyway if you replace them by some with identical capacity) that the new one's current rating is same or higher than your old's current rating.You could also use some battery clips and get cylindric batteries.I would recommend to buy some from original manufacturers. Not the rebranded crap. I got some LiIon batteries for my e-cig. They were rated at max. 20A output. But the voltage drops when using my e-cig and it shuts down. Use sony, panasonic, etc. But there are also fakes on the market. It's sometimes a cruel...Maybe that database of batteries helps you a bit. Don't know if there are also LiPoFe batteries. But take a look.http://www.dampfakkus.de/index.phpAnd unfortunately I think you can't replace LiPoFe with LiIon because the charging is different a bit.LiPoFe are not as dangerous as LiIon batteries are.Hope that helps a bit.

author: Falcon69
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 15, 2016, 11:32:23 pm
content: yup. all 3 were expanded that way, I accidentally cut the package and released the air I guees when I was cutting off the tabs.Yes, the battery I linked to on eBay was LiPo...not LiPoFe or LiIon. The original are Li-PolymerYou don't think that using leaded solder or low temp solder would be okay to solder those tabs? It says the battery can take a short bust of 100oC

author: electrolust
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 15, 2016, 11:42:46 pm
content: Solder doesn't melt until what 160°C and you have to run the iron at what 350°C?

author: Falcon69
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 15, 2016, 11:51:22 pm
content: low temp solder may be enough..maybe.If I can't solder the tabs, is there another way of connecting those tabs? some type of a clamp or something? Type of conductive glue maybe?

author: RGB255_0_0
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 15, 2016, 11:54:05 pm
content: I'm not so sure the lack of a battery is the reason your laptop is struggling to turn on. I'd check your power rails as it should turn on without a battery.

author: Falcon69
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 15, 2016, 11:58:45 pm
content: no, it is. I borrowed a friends battery from the same laptop make/model #. It works just fine.The Laptop will NOT work without the battery having some type of a charge. Since it won't recharge (obviously) and it only holds a slight amount of power, it's intermittent how it turns on. I have to kinda depress and press the switch just right for it to make the connection and switch over to the power cord. Stupid design in my opinion. I've had other laptops that will start up with or without the battery plugged in. But, now that the batteries have 'ballooned' there is NO charge/power in them at all. Not even enough to supply enough for the regulator inside the laptop to switch to power plug mode.

author: Falcon69
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2016, 12:19:03 am
content: This guyseems to be soldering, but he makes a big point out of being careful. but this guy heredoesn't seem to worry about anything, not even cooling the solder joints.Here's another guy doing the same thing.In all 3 though, they are using a huge chisel tip so it heats up faster.So I guess it is possible to solder these without incidence.

author: Audioguru
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2016, 12:22:49 am
content: I agree that no-name-brand batteries sold on ebay are not good and are probably fakes, buy name-brand ones.The original battery might have been over-charged or over-discharged by a faulty charger circuit in the laptop then a new battery will do the same.I think the very high cost of an original battery is a ripoff, maybe because they sell only a few. Hobby stores sell thousands of name-brand Li-Po batteries for radio controlled model airplanes at reasonable prices.

author: Falcon69
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2016, 12:25:00 am
content: hmm, never thought of the over charge or discharge. how would i check that? I'd really hate to buy another battery from factory at that price and still only have very short duration (3800mAh vs. 12,000 mAh)

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2016, 12:25:33 am
content: If you are doing anything other than replacing with OEM identical batteries you are taking some risk. You don't know what the battery charge management system is, and the condition of your first battery suggests that it wasn't a top drawer solution.If you really are running this plugged in all the time, why not set up an external pack with an external charger and just run power leads into the battery connector. Perhaps with a diode isolator so the internal charger can't mess with your battery, but you could also use a more bulletproof battery technology since size and portability aren't a real issue. Even an absorbed electrolyte lead acid type.

author: Falcon69
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2016, 12:38:41 am
content: well, not sure how to accomplish that yet.On the back of that large ribbon connector you see in the photo, it has 7 solder points connected to that circuit board...of which appears that 2 are for + and 2 are for -.Here's how it looks...... (it's printed on the ribbon cable).... + + C D T - -I am not sure what the CDT is, so How would I set up a new pack, and eliminate this circuit board completely.

author: Buriedcode
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2016, 01:41:46 am
content: Quote from: Falcon69 on December 15, 2016, 11:32:23 pmAir? It was most likely hydrogen, and as you well know it doesn't play nice with anything, you were lucky it didn't combust.The trouble with laptop batteries is they contain 'smart' devices, fuel gauges/coulomb counters, and use the SMbus to communicate with the motherboard. That conveys info like manufacturer, individual cell state, charge state, temperature etc.. You simply can't just remove it, plug in replacement cells and expect it to work. This is all on top of the standard cell protection of over-voltage, over current (either charge or discharge) and cell balancing. It was added for safety measures, but had the nice side effect that one could implement a counter that counts charge/discharge cycles, and just 'stop functioning' after a certain number of charges. This guarantee's that every owner has to replace a battery after a certain number of uses - so safety, but also good business sense as they're forcing one to buy a new battery every coupe of years. But again, it also means the motherboard can query the battery for ID's and decide whether it wants to charge it or not.If it still 'worked' whilst the batteries were in this state, I am surprised. Either it was a fake OEM battery pack, or the manufacturer really skimped somewhere. The fact that a new battery is very expensive is either indicative of the cost of the laptop (premium devices means they can charge much more for replacement parts, because if you can afford an expensive laptop..) or that it has been out of production.Whilst there are many fake laptop batteries, the only 'cheap' solution would be to either purchase one of those, open it up and check it has appropriate safety features and the batteries are the stated capacity or... find identical cells (same chemistry, same, or higher capacity) and if that works ok.. but you may have to reprogram some devices on the protection boards to reset the charge counter. If you use batteries with higher capacity, they will still charge at the same rate as the old ones, but the fuel gauge and coulomb counters will be specified for the original capacity, and will probably report wrong values.I have done both the above for an old dell, and it was such an arse I ended up just getting an OEM battery, giving it the once over, and testing it for a few days (so that it charged, didn't get hot, and worked). The fuel gauge in windows was completely wrong (said 10% constantly, but lasted 6 hours) but that's the price we pay.

author: 3roomlab
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2016, 01:42:12 am
content: you dont have a battery shop near you that refurbish cells?http://kuzyatech.com/testing-laptop-battery-pinout-smbus-charge-capacity

author: Falcon69
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2016, 02:02:41 am
content: interesting read 3roomlab.Well, I found a place that has the battery for $113 and says they are in stock. But before I order, I should probably email them first. Everywhere else I checked, says out of stock, and this is a 7 year old laptop (Still a kickass laptop though, with a Geforce 480m GTX video Card and Intel 940XM Extreme CPU).I will order the lipo batteries and solder them up, if i can, and see if it works as a larger capacity battery pack.Hopefully, it works good, maybe I'll get lucky and the only thing it will do is report a wrong charge amount like Buriedcode mentioned.And yes, it is a premium custom built Laptop I had done.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2016, 02:16:34 am
content: What people would usually do is carefully disassemble the battery without damaging it, carefully detach and remove the old, bad cells, replace the cells with new cells of the same physical size and type, and reassemble the battery.But maybe you have already gone beyond that stage from your pictures. I'm not sure if your battery is still capable of reassembly?

author: Falcon69
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2016, 03:01:57 am
content: no. I cut old batteries off. I will need to solder on new type.I still have the other part of the battery cover, that locks the batteries into place in the laptop. It was part of the actual laptop battery, i had to cut it apart to get to these batteries and the circuit board.

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2016, 08:45:37 am
content: As long as they do not catch fire, the materials inside a lithium ion battery are relatively nontoxic, as in you should obviously not leave the electrolyte on your skin, get it in your eyes, drink, or deliberately concentrate and inhale it, but a little exposure won't hurt. The electrolyte is flammable, however.You probably smelled a mixture ofhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diethyl_carbonate,https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dimethyl_carbonate, andhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethyl_acetate(this one in particular has a rather pleasant odour) --- none of which are dangerously toxic.

author: ayrex
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2016, 12:51:00 am
content: Quote from: Falcon69 on December 15, 2016, 11:32:23 pmYou could give it a shot. But on your own risk. Maybe with a large chisel and cooling it afterwards with cooling spray. Didn't solder such a thing on my own. So no experience