Starting up a lab - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / beginners

author: Ben sage
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2019, 08:54:38 pm
content: Hi guys I have a few questionsquestion 1Any good cheap soldering iron‘s and some flux also some Solder and is there anything else I need?question 2Any suggestions for resistor kits cap kits etc.question 3I’ve been looking at the Fluke 8050AMultimeter is it good and are there some other good cheap metersquestion 4I’m wondering what the best way is to learn electronics any good books?question 5What are some good power supplies I’m willing to do a kit as wellThanks guys

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2019, 09:31:21 pm
content: Define "cheap". To some degree you get what you pay for, avoid the really low cost Chinese clones, there have been several threads on the matter.Don't worry about buying kits of parts, find a project you want to build and buy the parts you need to build it.The 8050A is a decent meter but it's also very old, you might consider something a bit more modern like the EEVBlog branded meter Dave sells, it seems to be well liked and is modestly priced for what you get.The "best" way is probably to go to an accredited university and earn a EE degree, lots of other ways though. For books "The Art of Electronics" is often recommended.Early on you can get by with batteries or cast off "wall wart" type plug in power supplies. Once you have a better idea of what you want to do you can start shopping for a bench supply.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2019, 09:55:46 pm
content: For general bits and bobs AliExpress can be good and cheap. For bits that matter use Digikey.For bigger purchases like $$ test gear use a local supplier in the US.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2019, 09:59:38 pm
content: For the soldering iron, I've been pleasantly surprised with KSGER -https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32983347123.html. For the price it is excellent device.I'm not a fan of T12 tips range, so my main station is still PACE ADS-200, but it is also considerably more expensive. KSGER has way better UI as well.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 17, 2019, 10:29:38 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on October 17, 2019, 09:31:21 pmNo need to spend $100 on a meter up front, A couple of $20 AN8008 or similar will be fine.As for parts there are countless kits on ebay and AilExpress, I'm thinking about doing a video on this. Have covered a few in previous videos.

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2019, 10:44:56 pm
content: Quote from: ataradov on October 17, 2019, 09:59:38 pmWhat about ergonomics? I never understood how people use that half bee's dick ksger. It is a tiny control unit, i would hate squinting at the tiny screen doing some acrobatics with the temperature control pot each time temperature needs to be changed.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2019, 10:49:04 pm
content: Quote from: Bud on October 17, 2019, 10:44:56 pmI almost never need to change the temperature. I always have it set at 240 C or something like that.It has a very nice temperature boost feature. Any time you just need more temperature, you can turn the knob to the right. No need to look at the screen. Turn the knob back when you need to go back.And even if you need to adjust the temperature, it is very easy and intuitive actually, unlike PACE and Hakko with their 2 button and 7 segment LED displays BS.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2019, 10:57:36 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on October 17, 2019, 09:31:21 pmI got along for decades with fixed voltage supplies of +5 and +12V. It wasn't until just recently that I bought the Rigol DP832 but that was because I wanted to play with op amps and micros simultaneously. Batteries and wall warts work fine!A decent power supply is a heck of an investment and the lesser priced models have a fair number of warts.What is electronics? There are a lot of hobbyists that think an Arduino and some kind of robotics projects is electronics. They're right! A wee bit of Ohm's Law, a little research on motor drivers (or buy a Motor Shield from Adafruit or Sparkfun) and you're ready to write code. There's a lot of electronics that involves code.As to a book: I'm going to back away from The Art of Electronics and Learning the Art of Electronics as a starting point. Maybe "Getting Started In Electronics" by Forrest Mims is a better place to start.Really, without a definition of what "learning electronics" is supposed to provide, it just isn't possible to give much guidance.At a minimum you need Ohm's Law and probably Kirchhoff's Laws along with Thevenin's and Norton's Theorems.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2019, 11:28:09 pm
content: I started on this above: What does "Learn Electronics" mean to you?If you want to know enough to copy and paste projects, a few simple concepts like those I posted above are all you need. You could probably even derive some circuits from prior art with no formality at all.If you want to know it like an EE, sit down, strap in and get ready for 5 years of no sleep and math spilling out all over the floor. Not highly recommended unless you want to work in the field. And it really isn't necessary for the hobbyist.If you want to see some easy EE classwork, look into Khan Academy Electrical Engineering or Digilent's Real Analog course.Watch Dave's "Fundamentals Friday" series. These are excellent and far too few. We need more "Fundamentals Friday" videos!Seek out w2aew's videos on all sorts of things. He also does an excellent job of presenting electronics.Of course, there are hundreds of other sites about which I know absolutely nothing.In some ways, there is a difference between the goal of 'learning electronics' and 'building electronics'. By that, I mean the 'learning electronics' will be spent breadboarding educational experiments that have no particular end use. Everybody knows the equation for a charging capacitor but not everybody has taken a resistor, capacitor and square wave and watched the charge and discharge waveforms on a scope. That's 'learning' in my view. Or, plug in a sine wave and do a Bode' Plot to see how a low pass filter really works. Not mathematically works, not hand-wave works, how it truly works. Breadboarding and testing is learning!There's a reason for all that differentiation: I want to suggest you put ALL of the test equipment, other than a couple of Aneng AN8008 DMMs, on hold and consider the Digilent Analog Discovery 2 and the education kit. Sure, it's expensive but nowhere near what it would cost to outfit a lab with similar discrete tools. Couple it with the Digilent Real Analog course if you wish. Dave has done a video on the AD (the earlier model) and I use mine all the time when I want to demonstrate some concept like the frequency spectrum of a square wave like I did on a different thread earlier today. If I want to play with a transistor amplifier, the AD2 has differential inputs which makes it easy to measure certain voltages that aren't ground referenced. Like measuring the collector or base current by connecting the differential inputs directly across the collector or base resistor. There are other ways to do it but none are as clean as using the differential inputs of the AD2.As to the AN8008s, there is concern that the CAT ratings are bogus. It is recommended to avoid using them on mains voltages. Dave's meters are several levels more highly respected. I have both and they are excellent but the 121GW is pretty pricey. The BM235 is also a very nice meter. Over in the Test Equipment forum there is a lot of information on DMMs - look at the 'stickies'.The newer version has adjustable supplies (up to 5V) and the software is much more sophisticated. You can actually download the Waveforms software and run it is Demo mode with no device attached. Just to get a feel for things.

author: Shock
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2019, 12:22:24 pm
content: The Ksger is a cheap Chinese made station that comes with many safety issues, additional design issues and no stand for the iron. People grey market import these, they would never pass any local standards. If you look at the specs temp stability is 10C and power is 70W. They go for under $100, price depends on a few things such as getting a stand.The Pace ADS200 is a US made professional station that is all metal construction and includes an aluminum iron (for operator comfort). There is no known safety issues and it comes with a very solid stand. The ADS200 meets RoHS, ANSI/J-STD-001, ANSI/ESD S13.1-2015, ESD S20.20. If you look at the specs temp stability is 1.1C and power is 120W. They go for ~$200.Quality, durability, safety, ergonomics, performance, accuracy wise the Pace wins. The Ksger has a oled display that looks fancy. But displays don't solder joints and even if you found the boost option handy, the Pace has a preset button that can be set to do the same thing.

author: Shock
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2019, 01:23:58 pm
content: Q1. For soldering you also need desoldering tools, a hand desoldering pump also known as a solder sucker and some desoldering braid/wick will get you started. Solder and then additional flux is useful, do some searching it's too broad a topic to cover.Q2. Avoid buying too many cheap resistor and cap kits. It's a trap that many people fall into. Do collect some scrap PCBs to practice soldering and desoldering. Assemble some cheap kits and experiment.Noname brand kits have cheap low quality Chinese components, if you plan is to design or repair the difference is often only a few dollars to get the branded components which also will have datasheets which are often essential in evaluating the components performance.Q3. Secondhand multimeters are fine. The more you pay the more accuracy, resolution, features and quality you should get. But stick to name or recommended brands. Don't use cheap Chinese meters above 60V or so. Once you have a decent meter (secondhand Fluke 87 for $100 or so for instance) 95% of the meters out there will be rubbish in comparison.Q4. There are threads on the forum for book recommendations.Q5. When you are starting you can use a cheap PC switch mode power supply, you should be able to source one for free if you ask around. You can add a cheap Chinese DC to DC controller to get a low cost regulated power supply. Do some research on power supply features. Secondhand is always going to be the better value option. Don't sink too much into low end Chinese supplies, just like multimeters the cheap stuff is easily replaced.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2019, 04:16:10 pm
content: I'm not really sure what is so unsafe about Ksger soldering station. Do you have any prof that it does not pass those standards? Or you just like to bash China?I've been using it more, and it performs very. It would absolutely be suitable for a beginner.But if you are one of those people that buy Flukes only for no real reason, then sure go ahead and spend more money than you actually need to.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2019, 05:03:58 pm
content: Has Dave ever done a review and teardown of one? If not I think that would be worthy of a video at some point since it's getting recommended for beginners. I got by for many years with cheap firesticks by necessity which I'm sure were vastly inferior to even a cheap Chinese soldering station, it's great that there are affordable options these days.The Pace does look like a very nice system and a good value, certainly worth considering if one has the budget, otherwise it could be a nice upgrade once it is decided to pursue the hobby more seriously.There's some middle ground too, some of the Hakko stations are decent for around $100 or so, and I'm sure there are others.I never found any real use for those solder sucker gadgets, they never worked worth a crap for me although I know some guys swear by them. I have a Hakko 808 vacuum desoldering gun which I absolutely love, once I got that I never looked back. It wasn't cheap though, on a budget I think I'd be looking at some of the similar Chinese devices.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2019, 05:18:42 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on October 22, 2019, 05:03:58 pmThere are reviews and teardowns by others. I too disassembled my unit to see if there is anything sketchy going on, and it looks well designed. I personally have no problems with the design and build quality.And UI that is not frustrating to use is a nice addition.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2019, 05:57:45 pm
content: The Hakko 936 was a nice soldering station and reasonably priced. Alas, they are out of production. There are some used units on eBay.Replacing the 936 is the Hakko FX-888D which is also a pretty nice station at a reasonable price:https://www.amazon.com/s?k=fx-888d&ref=nb_sb_noss_1I have a Hakko pistol type desoldering tool and it works - sometimes - depending on the clearance between the lead and the pad. If there is very little clearance, it's hard to get the solder out. Solder Wick works - sometimes - again depending on the clearance between the lead and the pad. Same problem...Hot air desoldering might be the best way to go for either SMD or through-hole. I have a Hakko hot air station and I have only used it once or twice.Desoldering can lead to pads lifting off of PCBs and, if that happens on a multilayer (more than 2) board, the board may very well be scrap. Even two layer boards are going to be a PITA to fix.Avoid desoldering at every opportunity. Always use sockets for DIP style ICs and at every other opportunity. If I have to desolder a multi-lead component (eg 16 pin DIP) and the component is already known to be trash, I will cut the pins and desolder them one at a time. It's a lot easier on the PCB.The components are meaningless, it's the PCB that needs protecting.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2019, 06:01:54 pm
content: I actually stopped using sockets years ago except when dealing with parts that are likely to need to be pulled multiple times such as EPROMs or parts with high failure rates like old SRAMs and buffers that interface directly with things like buttons and joysticks on arcade boards. Desoldering ICs is trivial so long as the correctly sized tip is used and the tool is clean and maintained, I haven't had much trouble with that but I have had many problems caused by flaky IC sockets. I've fixed several boards where the only problem was IC sockets.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2019, 06:30:03 pm
content: It certainly doesn't pay to use the cheapest sockets on the market but there are some very good sockets available. I haven't used many DIPs in recent years but back in the '70s and '80s, wire-wrap was king and sockets were required. I used to buy gold plated sockets from Vector Electronics. I remember having to pay a gold surcharge! They don't sell them any more. Mouser has only 8 pin wire-wrap sockets. Good thing I'm out of that game!I stayed with sockets when I started doing PCBs. I haven't had any problems with sockets and they do make it possible to pull one output pin to the side for testing without a load on the pin. Is the pin defective or is there a short circuit? That kind of thing...I just want to avoid any possibility of having to desolder anything. It doesn't always work out but the idea is good. There's a reason I have the Hakko desoldering tool, a hot air tool and multiple sizes of Solder Wick.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 23, 2019, 10:22:27 am
content: Quote from: james_s on October 22, 2019, 05:03:58 pmYou can get a rip-off Hakko for under $20

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2019, 03:52:33 pm
content: I wouldn't buy a fake Hakko, they're no better than any other crazy cheap generic Chinese thing and I don't like to support the companies that just blatantly try to clone something like that.

author: Jwillis
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2019, 11:50:31 pm
content: You can get away with a simple 60W soldering iron from your local hardware store .Weller has a long lasting reputation of descent quality . Then later on work your way into either a DIY kit or a full adjustable station. Most learners will likely start with through hole components so having super precision soldering stations aren't necessary.Just remember to use sockets for your microchips .It's just easier to test connections and saves your chips from excessive soldering heat.Any Rosin soldering paste will be fine. 1mm or 0.5mm solder will be fine for most through hole circuits. Because of possible heavy metal exposure like lead. get a soldering fan or build yourself one with a large computer fan and some sort of carbon filter.Fish tank carbon filter pads will work.Get a good solder sucker and some solder wick.Any CAT III /CAT IV multi meter will work. Look for auto ranging . Better to get 2 moderate priced ones than one expensive one. If you want to monitor the voltage of something and check the current at the same time it's just easier to use 2 multi meters. As a beginner, an expensive unit won't tell you much more than any moderately priced one.This also leaves money for other cool testers like LCR meters and transistor testers which can be acquired fairly inexpensively from Aliexpress,Amazon,Bang good or Ebay.Component kits can be acquired from any of the previous mentioned sources really cheap. You don't need to buy every component ever made right off.Your inventory will build .Salvaging components from used electronics from local flea markets is another good source and sometimes you stumble on something really cool that may be reparable.Usually you can get started electronics under a couple hundred bucks and slower build your lab up to the direction of electronics your interested in the most.Be it Digital Logic ,Audio, Radio,Power,Electric Mechanical you've found yourself a very rewarding hobby indeed.You can find a compendium of knowledge on the internet and here. No such thing as a stupid question so don't be afraid to ask.Lots of folks here are very knowledgeable and helpful. And if you make a mistake, no big deal .That's part of the learning experience..

author: Zorc
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2019, 06:44:00 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on October 17, 2019, 10:29:38 pmvideo would be great!