Measure of how far "AI" has gone? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Analog Kid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2025, 10:19:33 pm
content: As a possible metric for "AI" acceptance--and not as a measure of its actual progress as a technology, nor of any real successes attained, but as a measure of hype and promotion of BS--a question:Have any aircraft manufacturers publicly announced integration of "AI" into their flight control systems?To me, this would be the ultimate (or perhaps the penultimate) gigantic gulp of marketing Kool-Aid.A. "not an aviation expert" K.

author: brucehoult
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2025, 11:30:38 pm
content: Do you mean autopilot, or something that sits between a pilot's controls and the aerodynamic surfaces?

author: jpanhalt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2025, 12:05:46 am
content: Query: If you are headed North and want to turn to 300°, which way should you turn?QuoteQuery: If you are headed North and want to turn West, which way should you turn?QuoteDoes that answer the troll?

author: brucehoult
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2025, 12:19:21 am
content: Grok (in the X app, which I always have open): If you are headed North and want to turn to 300°, which way should you turn?Quote

author: Langdon
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2025, 12:48:17 am
content: The ultra-superfluous wordiness makes me very annoyed.

author: brucehoult
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2025, 01:20:26 am
content: Quote from: Langdon on April 08, 2025, 12:48:17 am

author: Analog Kid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2025, 01:26:43 am
content: Quote from: brucehoult on April 07, 2025, 11:30:38 pmWell, my answer to that is both? I guess?(not being an aviation expert at all; I've watched a lot of @Mentourpilot's YouTube videos (very good, BTW), so I know more than I used to)Actually, both seem like possible ripe candidates for the "AI" czars ...

author: Analog Kid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2025, 01:29:01 am
content: Quote from: jpanhalt on April 08, 2025, 12:05:46 amYou rang? (I assume you mean me)Well, I got you, didn't I? Don't worry: you can pull that hook right out without even feeling anything.So what's your answer to the question? (re:"AI" in aviation) I'm genuinely curious.

author: brucehoult
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2025, 01:56:56 am
content: Quote from: Analog Kid on April 08, 2025, 01:26:43 amI'm categorically against any form of automation getting between a pilot's control inputs and what the control surfaces do. Sometimes in extreme situations it is worth it to exceed airframe load limits or to slightly stall the wings in order to avoid a crash. Let the automation protest as loudly as it wants, even physically push back on the controls as long as it is possible for the pilot to force their way past that. Even having to retire that airframe after it is safely back on the ground is better than killing 500 people.As for autopilot ... AI is doing far more in cars such as Tesla, in an environment with far more hazards, than any aircraft autopilot. Traditional autopilots are basically very simple maintain constant heading, maintain constant speed (via throttle / airbrakes), maintain constant altitude or rate of climb/descent. They will absolutely happily fly you into the ocean or into a mountain if you tell them to.There is also commonly a function to maintain heading until intercepting a VOR radial or ILS and then turn onto that. Or to continuously turn to maintain a constant distance from a DME. Or equivalent functions using GPS and arbitrary geographic points.The latest modern jets such as Boeing 737NG/MAX or Airbus A320 with RNP capability, can fly a complex RNAV (GPS) approach with multiple turns (including descending ones) fully hands-off, and this technology is available in smaller planes using e.g the Garmin G1000 NXi which at $60,000 could be fitted to even a small Cessna but is pretty much a no-brainer for any multi-million dollar plane now.But that's still nothing remotely like AI. It's just a series of pre-programmed lat / long / altitude points using a standard rate turn or custom turn radius at each transition. If you enter the wrong data it will still happily fly you through a mountain.Here's an example RNAV approach through an early morning low cloud layer in mountains:You can clearly see the autopilot rock the wings quite a bit trying to fly absolutely precisely over the centre of the airport about a dozen seconds before starting the turn to the right.

author: Analog Kid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2025, 02:48:15 am
content: Quote from: brucehoult on April 08, 2025, 01:56:56 amYes, although you may be lucky enough for there to be a GPWS activation before that happens, if your plane is so fitted.

author: Langdon
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2025, 08:43:45 pm
content: Quote from: brucehoult on April 08, 2025, 01:56:56 amFor some strange reason, that video makes me nauseous.Whatever, I didn't want to be a pilot anyways.

author: jpanhalt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2025, 09:37:15 pm
content: That's not so bad compared to Jackson's Hole WY:https://resources.globalair.com/dtpp/globalair_00504izlz19.pdfLook at those emountain elevations.

author: brucehoult
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 09, 2025, 12:54:20 am
content: Quote from: jpanhalt on April 08, 2025, 09:37:15 pmThe runway is pretty high at 6500 ft so the mountain peaks are 4000 to 6000 ft higher.At Queenstown that long chain on the left just before starting the turn (The Remarkables) are 6500 ft above the 1000 ft high lake level, and the one right in front of you as you descend into the clouds is 5500 ft above the lake.I see Jackson Hole doesn't have immigration and customs service. Queenstown has around half a dozen A320/B737 flights a day to/from Sydney, Melbourne, Brisbane, and Gold Coast in Australia (1950 to 2400 km), more in ski season as skiing in Australia is poo.

author: UnijunctionTransistor
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 09, 2025, 01:16:43 am
content: Wouldn’t Boeing’s failed MCAS an example of AI gone awry?

author: brucehoult
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 09, 2025, 02:00:58 am
content: Quote from: UnijunctionTransistor on April 09, 2025, 01:16:43 amAlmost certainly not. I'd expect it to be a simple direct mathematical formula based on AoA and possibly other inputs such as speed and engine thrust.

author: Analog Kid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 09, 2025, 04:54:12 am
content: Quote from: UnijunctionTransistor on April 09, 2025, 01:16:43 amNot exactly "AI", but an attempted (mis)step in that direction ...

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 09, 2025, 08:11:58 am
content: Quote from: jpanhalt on April 08, 2025, 09:37:15 pmAnd then there's Courchevel airport "The airfield has a very short runway of only 537 metres with a gradient of 18.6%. There is no go-around procedure for landings at Courchevel due to the surrounding mountainous terrain." FFI, see youtube videos where the moving picture makes good use of the medium.

author: brucehoult
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 09, 2025, 08:41:48 am
content: Quote from: tggzzz on April 09, 2025, 08:11:58 amReally nothing like. Jackson Hole is a perfectly normal 6,300 ft (1,920 m) long, 45m wide, runway.It's only 150m shorter than Wellington International which used to have regular 747SP service (35-40 years ago when it was shorter!) and sometimes has scheduled 777 service though passenger numbers don't usually warrant it. One time it did happen was following the major earthquake in Christchurch in 2011 with 777 flights added between Christchurch and Auckland/Wellington -- usually the 777 doesn't operate domestically at all.The main things about Jackson Hole are just that it's reasonably high up so faster takeoff and landing TAS is needed, making it perhaps roughly equivalent to a 1200m runway at sea level, and it has a few mountains around to avoid hitting.I'd like to see someone try to put an A320 or B737 in to Courchevel!747SP landing in Wellington:https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/54/QANTAS_747SP_touches_down_in_Wellington.jpg/1280px-QANTAS_747SP_touches_down_in_Wellington.jpgFull sized 747s sometimes divert to Wellington and it's no problem for them to land there. They just have to fly out again empty.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 09, 2025, 09:17:02 am
content: Quote from: brucehoult on April 09, 2025, 08:41:48 amOf courseIf you only consider airliner-sized airports, then Toncontin International Airport is entertaining. "Instead, an RNAV (GPS) approach is used, resembling a circle-to-land approach. Aircraft are routed through shallower terrain in a circular fashion, then follow along the Anillo Periferico road to a cloverleaf interchange, at which point aircraft take a sharp left turn to line up with runway 02."Apparently demolishing a hillside has made it less entertaining, and now it seems to be closed to large international aircraft. Perhaps that's for the betterFor a cockpit view of "turn left at the roundabout", start from 2:15 in

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 09, 2025, 01:20:45 pm
content: Quote from: UnijunctionTransistor on April 09, 2025, 01:16:43 amWell, with the modern definition of "AI = computer something", sure.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 09, 2025, 01:55:01 pm
content: Quote from: Siwastaja on April 09, 2025, 01:20:45 pmYes. Otherwise, in any sensible sense, of course not.

author: Analog Kid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 10, 2025, 01:38:50 am
content: Quote from: tggzzz on April 09, 2025, 09:17:02 amWhat's that, "stabilized on approach"--at the last second?And I heard someone say "That's not fun; I don't like this one!" at the end.

author: UnijunctionTransistor
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 10, 2025, 01:53:16 am
content: My insurance company proudly boasts “an AI Powered chatboat”, that could never provide the regular business hours.

author: Langdon
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 10, 2025, 03:29:41 pm
content: Quote from: Siwastaja on April 09, 2025, 01:20:45 pmSo true!!!!