A learner's rant - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / beginners

author: David Aurora
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2012, 05:06:29 am
content: I've been teaching myself about electronics over the last few years from various books, websites, experimenting and conversations with smarter people than I. With every source of knowledge (besides experimenting), I have the same complaint, and it's reached the point lately of driving me fucking berserk (and I've realised it's why I've abandoned so many attempts to learn in the past), so I'd like to humbly request right here and right now that nobody producing educational content ever again uses the following words together:"Let's assume that..."No. Let's NOT assume anything. Tell me why it's the case. Whether it's choosing a collector current, or a filter cap value, pull up/down resistor values, input/output impedances, fuse sizes, whatever, please tell me WHY we're using that value/voltage/current/etc. Don't shortcut, teach it properly or don't bother.I understand that at a certain point you collect a certain amount of knowledge and can fill in the blanks for yourself. I'm reaching that point myself now in lots of situations. But it has been hell to get there. It seems like every damn book or tutorial I ever find on a subject starts on some unexplained assumption and leaves me scouring 20 other books or sites for an explanation of why we started with that assumption. I have so many dog eared half finished books laying around because the information is completely useless to me until I find out why they chose certain starting points in a circuit. The info is fine to copy their design, but tells you absolutely stuff all about designing your own circuits for your own requirements.I hope this rant makes sense. It's hard to explain exactly what I mean. Argh. My brain is fried right now. I just got halfway through reading another whopping explanation on a topic only to find another value chosen to explain equations with no explanation of why out of every possible value available you'd choose that one. Is it related to impedance? Power dissipation? Stability? Frequency response? NFI.Now... off to go figure that out from another 50 sources before I can continueP.S. This is why I'd love to see Dave tackle some super basic beginner concepts at some point, he makes things so much easier to understand. Maybe it's because we both speak Strayan, I dunno

author: Bored@Work
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2012, 05:52:43 am
content: And you know what would happen if your wish was granted? You would be coming here and complain why they use pages after pages full with Math to explain details, while never getting to the point.

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2012, 05:57:03 am
content: This issue is a bit complicated, because everyone learns in a different way.However my perspective is...You need some level of "lets assume that.." otherwise things are too complicated to get your head around.It's the same with computer/mcu programming, you need abstraction to break things into chunks you can understand.A lot of people make the mistake of trying to understand everything (or believing they should know everything). It just leads to getting depressed and annoyed.Even the most experienced engineers don't know it all.It's a lot less about "what you know" and more about "what you can build"Also its about having the skills to research areas you don't understand in order to get something to work (even if you don't really understand why it works).Everything you build teaches you something and that enables you to build more complicated things in the future.

author: David Aurora
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2012, 06:43:21 am
content: Bored@Work- That's a bit straw man, really. There's no need for it to be taken to ludicrous extremes, just simple one line statements here and there. As a super simple example, say you're explaining voltage dividers. You can give the formula and an example quite easily, but it doesn't really help a beginner much staring at a pile of resistors going "Well should I use the 100k resistors or 10k resistors". Mention the (obvious to us at this point) current draw aspect, and they'll have a much better idea of how to select suitable values.Psi- Yeah I hear what you're saying, I just think there's better ways to explain things. To put it into something I've got more expertise in than electronics, let's jump to music. When I was taught chords by various people, they generally went "Put your fingers here, here and here. That's a C major chord". Whereas the way I've taught people is "The major chord is the first, third and 5th note of the major scale". The former explanation lets you repeat the chord you've been shown, as it was shown to you. The latter let's you find any major chord anywhere you want on any instrument you want. So yeah, you definitely need a certain level of knowledge (here it's knowing the major scale). BUT... this step is a complete lesson built off that prior knowledge, it doesn't gloss over anything the way the copy/paste "Put your fingers here" method does.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 12, 2012, 10:37:19 am
content: Working at a French company once, I decided to take the French language class they offered.I lasted a couple of weeks before I quit.They started right at the frigg'n beginning with all the technical aspects of the language, with all the accents and forms etcAll I wanted to do was learn some basic phrases etc, we never got to that partIt was like trying to learn electronics by starting with quantum theory and maxwell's equations.With the original question, it's ok to say "Let's assume that..." when the value doesn't really matter much and you are trying to teach a higher level concept.Getting bogged down in the details can be boring.I actually have on my to-do list a video just about pull-up resistors. Because someone asked that once on here (you?), and I was curious to see how long a video I could make on the details of choosing one of the most mundane component values in electronicsDave.

author: ftransform
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2012, 10:40:43 am
content: they need to fix firefox so it does not shit itself when I have 100 tabs open, 100 tabs solving the problem you indicate.I do not bother with paper textbooks. Open two textbooks on the same subject, 3 app notes and 4 web pages to get a good understanding.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2012, 10:54:55 am
content: lets learn opamp subject!... a simple one, voltage follower... "lets assume that"... no bias current no voltage offset no temp drift super linear opamp bla bla, so we get the equation.... Vout = Vin+, simple! fun! now lets dont assume the above mentioned are zero, try to put those into the equation and see? i dont thing thats fun esp at introductory chapter.

author: jeroen74
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2012, 11:23:00 am
content: I think 'The Art of Electronics' has a good approach. Start out with the ideal component assumption, and later on talk about the imperfections of real components.QuoteThat's the subtle difference between training and teaching I guess.Like the Microsoft Word trainer who regards Ctrl+S as the wrong answer to the exam question: "How do you save the document?"

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 12, 2012, 11:42:41 am
content: I find the best way to learn is to design and build a project that includes lots of things you want to learn; then just build it! Soon enough you'll run into lots of weird phenomena that makes no sense or if you're really unlucky and your project works first time; great! but if you're lucky enough it doesn't actually work; that is when you learn the most! ;-)

author: ptricks
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2012, 12:30:44 pm
content: Use some of the online video courses from the major colleges. Like anything though it is going to depend on the teacher. Some teachers are great while others shouldn't have ever been teaching. I learn best by doing, someone just talking about things makes me start to daydream in class.Free video tutorials.http://www.infocobuild.com/education/audio-video-courses/electronics/electronics-and-electrical-engineering.html

author: grumpydoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2012, 02:27:46 pm
content: QuoteThat's the French for you, unfortunately.

author: G7PSK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2012, 04:08:29 pm
content: The best way to learn any language is to go to the country where that is spoken, the same principal applies to electronics go where it is spoken and mix with expert speakers and ask questions and get down and dirty and do.

author: AndyC_772
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2012, 04:28:17 pm
content: This is something I found highly frustrating many times, both at school and at university. Many people who are experts in their field really have no concept at all of just how difficult their subject is for someone who has no pre-existing familiarity with it. Often it's as if they start teaching at chapter 2 of the course text, and leave out those crucial first pages entirely and without even noticing it.Earlier this year I started writing a book. It's a beginner's guide to electronics, designed for the curious hobbyist who wants to learn about the subject in a practical way, without getting bogged down in maths. Most importantly of all, I wanted it to give the reader a really solid, intuitive feel for what each component really does, and how its presence might influence those components around it.The way I approached the subject was by analogy: electricity is like beer. We can all imagine beer, and it captures interest in a way that abstract concepts and equations never will.Sadly real work got in the way, so I only got as far as the first couple of chapters before having to shelve the project. Maybe I'll pick it up again if work goes quiet again next year. In the meantime, if enough people ask, I might be persuaded to post a chapter...

author: Mr Smiley
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2012, 05:15:50 pm
content: The problem with assumptions is there based on what the person making the assumption already knows. Their brain flashes through all their past knowledge and experience in a moment and up pops a value. They won't be able to give you a 3 seconds explanation because sub consciously it's been done for them and there told from inside that it's gonna be X.This really is a major problem, particularly in books.When i was taught programming with pascal and machine code, electronics and all other things i wanted to understand i was in a fortunate time.Books in them days, the 70's and 80's described principles and examples in simple to understand ways, say for example programming C and pascal. If you look at today’s books you have a few pages of 'for' 'while' and 'if', then the rest goes into brain deadening masses of unexplained dribble.If you get hold of the 'old' books, they give pages and pages of clearly described code full of comments and what you shouldn’t do and why.Same with today’s electronics books, there written by people who just want to churn out what they know, get the 'old' books from the 50's and 60's, even valve based, and the detail and explanations is beyond belief.A lot of the foundations and basics what you may want to learn is no longer available in today’s publications or on the internet, as you've discovered it's all assumed you know it all. It has gone with those that knew and have since died. As an example, about 25 years ago i wanted to build my own studio flash units, at that time 'bowens' ruled supreme, you couldn’t by the tubes or the caps or anything to build these big beasts. There was no internet, and the library ruled. But the only info i could find, very little but very detailed was in books from the 50's. I found a small company that made the tubes, went and fobbed my way in and tried to make out i knew what i was talking about. From that i got the name of a designer, got his phone number and phoned him up, The amount of info he was giving me just went on an on, after 10 minutes i was forgetting what he had started telling me, so i hung up, grabbed a tape recorder, phoned him back, apologized for being cut off and then recorded over an hour of information that to this day i have never heard again. Did you know that high power studio flash units can self trigger in complete darkness, illuminate the room with almost no ambient light and they never will.Another thing you may find is that you will learn more from what you 'notice' than from what your told.ps , get the old books, i have books from librarys that were put out of circulation and had their hard covers ripped from them do dissuade people from taking them from the bins, old, damaged but worth their weight in knowledge that is now disappearing.

author: robrenz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2012, 06:47:13 pm
content: I use two modes of learning.One is absorbing whatever I am capable of with my current knowledge base as I read the forum and watch videos. If something sparks a deeper interest I may spend some time researching it. I absorb what I can follow and I don't worry about what I can't follow at the moment. I usually gain some incremental amount of understanding. I am interested in all of it but I realize I am not going to be an expert or even adequate in all of it.Over time my "knowledge + understanding = wisdom" grows. I am enjoying the journey, I have no specific destination.Second is doing a project that provides aNEEDto learn. I pick something that I am inspired to do because I know its going to get ugly and I will need staying power to not quit. So I decide to build a better/more usefull decade resistance box to sell. Who can't handle a decade box design? So that has led to a 1-1/2 yearobsessivestudy of resistance, resistance measuring etc. etc. With a many rabbit trails inspired by the forum ofmode onelearning thrown in. I don't just read, IDO/BUILDthings that reinforce the concepts and burn it into my brain. So now I know a lot about resistance and measuring it, I may not be an expert, but I can explain all the important concepts to someone off the top of my head. I will never forget this knowledge because I have used it long and hard enough that it is relatively permanent. My overall electronic knowledge/wisdom has increased in the process. On the other hand I could not build a simple transistor circuit without looking upEVERYTHINGbecause I don't have any experience or a current need. I know the basics but not the details andthat doesn't bother me.So now onto the next project, making a controller for my 4 quadrant PS so it can be an Eload

author: poodyp
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2012, 08:12:37 pm
content: I personally love the Arduino "tutorials" that ammount to "plug this widget in and use this code. Put function_call(4) in your code somewhere and tada, you're totally a programmer dude".

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2012, 08:18:34 pm
content: Another point to remember on this subject is that the information may not all be in the same place, or under the same heading.For instance with electronics, the basic assumptions of things that "everybody knows" may not be found in electronics textbooks at all. At some level you will have gone back to basic physics and the assumed information will be in physics textbooks. It may be things you might have learned in science classes at school under a quite different subject heading.Similarly with advanced material like the discussion on the operation of studio flash units. This information might be consolidated in a highly specialized text on the design and manufacture of high power studio flash units if you could ever find such a text. However, all the information is most likely out there as quite general and un-specialized theory about the physics of gases and plasmas and gas discharges, if you knew how to interpret it and put it all together.Experts become experts by learning all sorts of general and widely dispersed material, combining it with experiments, and salting it with time and experience. Experts themselves may be lost when they retire, but the information is not lost. It just drifts apart and scatters again like dust on the wind.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2012, 08:31:04 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on December 12, 2012, 10:37:19 ammy speculation is a good 4 hours ... don't forget topics such as adjusting for the line capacitance , differenc ebetween carbon , metal film , power dissipation in the resistor, how to place via's on the board ,difference between series termination , parallel termination , source matching , load matching , daisy chain. don;t forget resistor netorks. single pin common , multiple pin common.here's a nice one... i got calle din to help debug a system that kept reboot endlessly. it was built around a 68000 processor. the power supply kept collapsing... the doofii ( plural of doofus .. ) had install 1k pullup resistors on all address, data, and control lines to make sure to have nice 'hard' levelsso whenever the cpu wanted to access memory location 0 all 32 address lines 16 data lines and some control lines all were driven low , effectively putting like50 1k resistors parallel with each other ... thus loading the power supply with 20 ohm. poor 7805 was already heavily loaded by all the chips and threw a fit when that happened. thermal overload kicked in , board screwed up...there such a thing as overdoing it.oh, and don;t forget to mention active pull ips with edge accelerators. linear technologies makes that ( amongst others )

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2012, 08:34:49 pm
content: on the 'assume that'good luck tring to explain the classic astable mulitvibrator with two transitors.. to explain that you need to assume that one transistor will go in conduction faster than the other and this the system will begin oscillating.as for why that one transistor reacted faster ... and why it is not necessarily always the same one that reacts fast we need to delve in transysteor physics , transistor construction and the laws of probability , statistics (and other lies) ... and may have to drag in schrodingers cat ...The mere fact that you are watching the LED's blink has an impact on which of the two transsitors will conduct the first.is that all necessary to explain a simply circuit made form 4 resistors, 2 transistors 2 caps and 2 led's ? i don;t think so. so 'assuming that' is perfectly fine.

author: jeroen74
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2012, 08:42:29 pm
content: Until the learner simulates the circuit in, say LTSpice, and finds it doesn't work

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2012, 09:34:16 pm
content: Quote from: jeroen74 on December 12, 2012, 08:42:29 pmTake computer that has spice installed and make a pile with computer, installation media , manuals , whatever that relates to spice.Douse pile in gasoline and set on fire. After fire self-extinguishes : collect remainders and grind them down to powder.Make a mixture of cement , water and sand enough to fill a 1 cubic foot container. Add aforementioned ground-down remainders to mixture and pour in mold. Once the mixture has set : bury hardened concrete block 6 feet deep and plant an apple tree on top of it.Affix sign to apple tree : not fit for human consumption.What i'm trying to say : Beginners (and even moderately advanced) should be kept away from things like spice at all costs until they have fried enough parts and genained enough prectical experience with real parts to understand the problems with simulations and their flawed models.Experience in electronics is linearly propertional with the amount of fried circuits and test equipment.

author: David Aurora
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2012, 11:50:16 pm
content: OK cool, looks like I'm not crazy, people got what I was talking aboutOn the points about learning by experience, yeah, that's always the main thing. I want to DO things, not just KNOW things. But you definitely need to start with a little bit of study, there's no way to instinctively know how to build a rectifier, or what an op amp does, or Ohm's law, any of it. You need the basic idea of how to do what you want as well as references now and then while learning.Mr Smiley- The old books suggestion sounds like a good one. I picked up a couple of books on transistors from the 60's a while back, and they're much better than the newer explanations I've come across. Basic electronics knowledge is assumed (e.g. You need to know Ohm's law, what a resistor or capacitor is, how to connect things together etc.) but no prior knowledge is assumed for THE TOPIC THE BOOK IS SUPPOSED TO TEACH YOU ABOUT. Books like that aren't really there to show you how to build 10 different things, the point is to teach you the ins and outs of the component so by the end of it you can figure that out for yourself.But I guess like the Arduino example, it comes down to what the readers want, instant flashing lights or a proper understanding.

author: lewis
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2012, 11:58:01 pm
content: Quote from: free_electron on December 12, 2012, 09:34:16 pmWhat he said!"Let's assume that" is absolutely fine in my opinion, as long as the text immediately goes on to explain why the assumption is invariably wrong.Autodidacts unite!

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2012, 09:06:24 am
content: Quote from: free_electron on December 12, 2012, 08:34:49 pmThis is exactly the example I was going to use!Another problem,is if we don't either cover the whole gamut of human experience,or alternately,say"let's assume",& instead,just pick a transistor at random,saying say,"Q1 is initially saturated",you will have a huge number of newbies agonising on this forum about why some other book or website chooses Q2.

author: miceuz
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2012, 09:55:34 am
content: Quote from: David Aurora on December 12, 2012, 05:06:29 amI know your pain bro! I'm going the same path for the 3rd year, and I've come to some conclusions:1. The majority of content online is crap. To get semi decent understanding of a concept you are digging into you have to read piles of semi complete tutorials and cherry pick facts to fill the gaps.2. I should have gone to university to learn the subject. A good one university. But that does not count for me anymore as I'm too old and too broke for that. Online courses from MIT and Cornell are great, but when you can't ask the professor your own questions, it still leaves some gaps unfilled.3. electronics.stackexchange.com and forums like this one is a great place to fill in the gaps. You have to do it yourself and it amounts to the same cherrypicking, but at least there is a way.4. When you get some knowledge of the subject, compile it and post it online so generations to come will be able to find another resource with some gaps filled for them.Just right now I'm compiling a post about transmission lines, termination, driving long lines with digital signals and how long is too long. Yesterday I just got "The art of electronics", I opened the page about "Digital signals and long wires" and man, how disappointed I was - "just put a resistor of value equal to characteristic impedance of the line in series with capacitor to ground. Something like 100pF should do ok" wha? I've expected a better explanation, like different termination techniques, pros, cons, harmonics, rise times, etc.. ok, back to cherrypicking

author: jeroen74
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2012, 12:07:33 pm
content: On the other hand, AoE is old, second edition is from 1989. Transmission lines where not that important or often encountered as they are now I guess.And the question is how much do you want to pack into one book, it's already quite voluminous. For almost each subject in AoE you could write a complete book on itself and most likely are available too.For high speed digital I believe'High-Speed-Digital - A handbook of black magic'is universally regarded as the definite book on the subject. Start reading at page 229

author: ptricks
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2012, 12:44:11 pm
content: For the beginner to electronics I always recommend anything by Forest Mims, I started my interest in electronics back in 1984 with his 555 timer book , then collected all the others that radio shack sold.http://www.amazon.com/Getting-Started-Electronics-Forrest-Mims/dp/0945053282/ref=la_B003UGHJVE_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1355402604&sr=1-1

author: JuiceKing
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2012, 01:07:15 pm
content: Quote from: David Aurora on December 12, 2012, 05:06:29 amI have had the same frustration.All I can say is to do experiments which focus on very simple circuits that explore DC and AC interactions with passive components so that you are utterly comfortable with Ohm's Law, as well as impedance and resonance concepts. Then add in the active stuff. For me, there was an "aha" when I understood that certain passive components (or combinations of them) were doing multiple jobs depending on the frequency of the signal. Here's an example that was very helpful for me:- Ken

author: M0BSW
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2012, 09:10:32 pm
content: Now "Let's Assume" all these replies are right,we can then assume,you have the answer you needand "Let's assume" you'll still have to keep reading the books , it's better than watching the evening TV

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2012, 09:58:51 pm
content: Quote from: M0BSW on December 13, 2012, 09:10:32 pmand that, my friend, is NOT an assumption but pure fact.

author: mark5009
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 14, 2012, 01:52:14 am
content: Hmmm."Let's assume" is a simplification. It represents an ideal situation where all the nasty bits that a working designer has to deal with. But then, being a smart guy, I suspect that you know that.So, you're getting frustrated when reality is different from the model? Or are after something else? I don't get it.Let's say that you have a buffer circuit that uses a generic NPN transistor. You see that the transistor says "BC109, BC549, 2N2222 etc.", do you want to know which one to choose? Is that the kind of thing? Or do you need someone to explain that it really doesn't matter and that any NPN GP transistor will work and why that is the case? Or do we assume that you know the basics about transistors and just want to know how to construct buffers, and what the trade-offs might be between transistor buffers, JFET buffers or op amp buffers? Then, do you want to know how a TL072 works, and on, and on... Or do you just want to create a buffer?Whichever way you want to go, you are going to hit model simplification. Get over it.[As an aside, a couple of astro-physics friend say that, when it comes down to it, there are only three interesting numbers in astronomy: 0, 1 and infinity. To a first-order approximation :-) ]

author: SgtRock
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 14, 2012, 02:03:31 am
content: Dear Dave:--You said "I actually have on my to-do list a video just about pull-up resistors. Because someone asked that once on here (you?), and I was curious to see how long a video I could make on the details of choosing one of the most mundane component values in electronics.--To which I say, bring it on, I am your huckleberry. This is an area which is a subset of the Venn Diagram of my ignorance.--You could even throw in pull downs as well, if it does not seem long enough."He was born ignorant, and has been losing ground ever since."Fred Allen 1894 - 1956Best RegardsClear Ether

author: urbanwriter
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 17, 2012, 05:13:37 am
content: Broadly speaking... I certainly sympathize with the OP; my frustration dates back to junior high school when some cad said 'well, we'll use an imaginary number...'I think is difficult is for someone who has mastered a skill to recognize, in a very positive sense, how much they know. And when you are at that level of skill perhaps one of the defining notions is that you can start with 'we'll assume...,' while the beginner is mystified, perhaps, that the 'assumed value' works at all.Ah, to hell with it. This could be a 3,000 word essay; I'm not writing it, you're not reading it. Be curious, have fun, allow for a couple mistakes.Oh, Dave, on the 'French question.' That is how 'other' languages are taught. If you speak Chinese, and you wish to learn English as ESL, you would be taught so much about verbs and nouns and adjectives and nominatives and past-perfect. The list goes on. But you'll also be taught that you can't start a sentence with 'but,' but you can. In Montreal a local guy, Quebecois, said that if I wanted to learn French, get a local girlfriend. I guess your options are limited to French classes. ; )Oh, please, I beseech thee, do pull-up resistors. And, as Sgt Rock has intimated, throw in the pull-downs as well.

author: Bored@Work
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 17, 2012, 06:25:30 am
content: The boring whining of a generation that doesn't want to put any own work in and requires to be spoon feed.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 17, 2012, 07:54:51 am
content: Quote from: urbanwriter on December 17, 2012, 05:13:37 amThen I posit they are doing it wrong. Just like starting electronics with quantum physics, it's a stupid way to do it and kills your enthusiasm.In this case the object of the (short) course was to give you the ability to hold a basic short conversation in French, not get a degree in the languageKinda like being able to wire up and program an Arduino to give you the ability to control some hardware - they should have only taught the high level French stuff, not the low level.Dave.

author: Razor512
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 17, 2012, 08:20:41 am
content: For me when it comes to learning through tutorials, I am not looking for unrelated basics, (eg the basics of learning to use a car is not how to build an engine)The problem that many tutorials have is that they assume you know everything in the world except what they are trying to teach you. It is difficult to describe it for electronics, while less related, i feel a good example of bad tutorials are math books.Many math textbooks will give you the major steps to solving a problem, but they will not tell you the steps in between the major steps. And one of the basic properties of math and numbers is that there an unlimited number of ways to get any number, If I don't understand how it got from one step to the next then I don't understand the problem, even if I do some calculation that gets me the same result, it may not be the proper way to solve the problemWith a proper tutorial (in my opinion), if there is a step where it is not completely intuitive and leading (eg a GUI install has a next button so a tutorial explaining an install does not need those in-between steps), then it must be explained why you chose what you chose or did what you did to reach the next step.Nothing is to be left to multiple interpretations, which is important when it comes to error free learning. I am currently doing student teaching at an elementary school and the most common problem I see are students who have completed a lesson (most commonly math) where they do not fully understand how to get to each step, and perform what ever in-between steps that they feel should be done, and get a number at the end. While it is not too bad it the error is discovered and quickly corrected, but what commonly happens is they get 20 problems for homework and perform the same mistake multiple times and thus conditioning them self into solving the problem the wrong way and if you correct them, they may follow it once and revert back into doing it the wrong way the moment they slightly forget something. This then requires an extended amount of time to get them to unlearn what they have learned before, then relearn how to solve a problem with (this time with all of the in-between steps that were missing before).Sorry for the long winded post in advance.(the great thing with sites like youtube is that is is easier for people to share info and tutorials so you are more likely to find someone who will post a how-to, with all of the important details)

author: HackedFridgeMagnet
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 17, 2012, 08:21:41 am
content: Not all French language classes just start on grammar.I went to one where the teacher couldn't speak English very well, and from the first lesson, for Everything we said, we had to at least try to say it in French first.It was very hard but it was really a mindset thing that needed to be conquered, and it was better than learning the exact grammar.It think this was a much better way of learning.And for further inspiration I just needed to turn to my right to where Miss Australia was sitting!je m'appelle Jon, comment vous appelez-vousNeedless to say, I tried my best to learn French, but couldn't get those throaty rrrs that sound like you've been smoking too much.

author: David Aurora
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 17, 2012, 09:14:06 am
content: Quote from: Bored@Work on December 17, 2012, 06:25:30 amThe boring whining of a generation that insists that in their day they had to walk 50 miles over frozen ground to blah blah blah blah blah...Get over it, Gramps. Technology is one of those things that you can't turn into a "In my day" story, for the simple reason that half the stuff we're trying to learn now simply didn't freakin exist a generation ago. It's one thing to start in the old technology and add a little more knowledge with each advance in technology. It's kind of different to start in the twenty-teens and catch up on the whole lot.

author: TerraHertz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 17, 2012, 11:02:01 am
content: Quote from: Mr Smiley on December 12, 2012, 05:15:50 pmI second that! If you can find a local 2nd-hand bookshop that stocks old science/electronics texts, treasure it!My first real introduction to electronics was a 1964 edition of the Radio Amateur's Handbook, that a neighbor gave me when I was about 9. The introductory section is brilliant. Still have it, see pic.Plenty of old textbooks on all kinds of topics are available 2nd hand for purchase online very cheaply. For instance seehttp://www.abebooks.com/servlet/SearchResults?sts=t&tn=radio+amateur%27s+handbook+1964QuoteADMIN EDIT: Link to Crackpot website removedEdit to add: It's also fun to find wonderful old books. For instance from the discussions here of Jim William's classic App Notes, I realized my data book library has nothing from Linear Technologies after 1989. So I found a set on ebay: Linear Applications Handbook Vol I, II & III, Linear Technologies, 1990, 93 & 97. Really looking forward to those arriving.

author: urbanwriter
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 17, 2012, 03:00:18 pm
content: Dave, I didn't say I agreed with the way language is taught, when the teaching is a commodity, I just noted that 'that's the way it is' in far more cases than nought.I wanted to order food with at least some respect for my hosts in French, in Foo Chow, in Malay, in Spanish so I learned fairly promptly in each case. And, just as with electronics fora, some participants were more helpful than others.

author: JuiceKing
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 17, 2012, 03:00:41 pm
content: Quote from: TerraHertz on December 17, 2012, 11:02:01 amNow back to our regularly scheduled program.

author: TerraHertz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 18, 2012, 01:48:37 am
content: Those Linear Technology application books arrived. They are really excellent. Even more fun than the old Nat-Semi application databooks. See pic. If you ever spot these in 2nd hand sales, grab them they are worth their weight in gold.JuiceKing, yeah, if there was a smiley for 'warning, extreme fringe' I'd have added it.But one has to wonder at the mentality of people who destroy books 'because they are old' or whatever other reason they may claim. I've seen it myself - a whole library at a Montessori school my kids were attending. The principle decided all the books should be disposed of, and new ones bought. He was in the process of loading them up to take to the tip when I found out. Most looked fine to me. I was able to take them to the Salvos myself instead. But he really wanted to landfill them. Hundreds of books, donated to the school by parents over many years. I forget his name, but it was compatible with that article.Edit: Oh, and another sad example of book destruction. In Sydney near Central Station there's an 'excess print run' (remaindered) book seller called Basement Books. Very low prices, on essentially new books. They used to have an excellent section for technical, networking and computer science books. A lot of which I think came from nearby University Coop bookstores. Then suddenly that section was virtually eliminated. No more cheap high quality tech books. I asked why, and was told that the publishers now require technical bookstores like the Coop to return all unsold stock for destruction. So that's a profit margin motive - the few people happy to buy such books cheaply a year or so after they were current, are cutting into bookseller profits to an unbearable extent, apparently. Better to destroy all excess copies. But this reasoning doesn't extend to _other_ types of books.