Proof that expensive HDMI cables make no difference - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 21, 2014, 10:46:57 am
content: Well, I'm shocked...http://www.expertreviews.co.uk/home-entertainment/1292371/expensive-hdmi-cables-make-no-difference-the-absolute-proof

author: electrophiliate
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 21, 2014, 11:16:38 am
content: No surprises there. This part made me laugh out loud:"In fact, James Randi has even extended his $1 million prize for anyone that can prove paranormal activity to include anyone that can prove that expensive HDMI cables make a difference."What other audiophoolery could that offer be applied too?Some of the cheap HDMI cables I've purchased didn't last long before the picture started breaking up. Poorly made or even faulty wires from (minimal) wear and tear due to occasional movement?

author: Dave
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 21, 2014, 11:23:55 am
content: Quote from: electrophiliate on May 21, 2014, 11:16:38 amProbably poor contact from shitty connectors.Quality cables might be more reliable than cheap shit, but they still aren't going to give you a more vivid picture and warmer sound (marketing wank for morons like audiophools).

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 21, 2014, 11:30:15 am
content: Quote from: electrophiliate on May 21, 2014, 11:16:38 amHe started out offering it for monster/wank speaker cable. No one has claimed it yet...

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 21, 2014, 11:35:38 am
content: Quote from: electrophiliate on May 21, 2014, 11:16:38 amI think that was just a joke, but would be a risky offer, as you could hook up an expensive data analyser to measure differences in error margin and demonstrate that some cables were better than others in terms of analogue signal integrity, though I suspect there would be little correlation to cost.

author: Dr. Frank
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 21, 2014, 11:38:01 am
content: Well, the sad truth is, that the mechanical design of the HDMI plug is really poor, especially the contacts construction, obviously regarding contact pressure .Those cheap cables, with tinned contacts, often lead to complete interruption of transmission, especially on our TV set, connected to SAT receiver + BluRay Player + MM PC, and which is mounted on a moveable desk.Jiggling at the plugs helped temporarily only.Only when I bought SLIGHTLY more expensive cables , with gold plated contacts and better mechanical feeling of the plugs, those problems vanished completely.Therefore, those gold plated HDMI cables should cost a little bit more, up to 10 bucks.The Display Port standard is much more reliable, because the plug is tightly hooked.Frank

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 21, 2014, 11:45:34 am
content: Money has nothing to do with it indeed, it is all about the quality of the shielding.There is even a rating for it : high speed hdmi cable or standard speed and yes that makes a huge difference (in shielding)For short lengths (<5m) and low bandwidth there will not be any difference as in the test but take my personal experience almost two years ago:A 10 meter HDMI cable from a processor to my HD projector playing 1080p 3D 24fps content on it (uncompressed so +/- 4Gbps at 12 bit colordepth) and my old (2004) Oehlbach cable (costing $200 in 2004) could not handle it (bit errors, green/red/blue pixel rain).A brand new cheap wank-name cable couldn't handle it either (also picture defects but less then the old cable) and a (rather expensive unfortunately) active cable (built in amplifier) it was perfect again.

author: andtfoot
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 21, 2014, 11:47:12 am
content: I work in the AV industry myself, so have come across various HDMI cables. I try to only use cables from commercial AV manufacturers, like Extron or Kramer Electronics.Generally, from a reputable manufacturer, a more expensive cable will allow longer distances before issues. This is due to better shielding, thicker conductors, etc.It obviously doesn't make the picture better than a cheap one, as long as both are working properly.Like the difference between these Extron models:Extron HDMI Pro SeriesExtron HDMI Micro SeriesThe Micro series is better suited to interconnects in a rack because it's easier to work with, but is only specified up to 2m without active extension.The Pro series is specified up to 23m without active extension. If I'm hitting that kind of distance though, chances are I'd spec in aHDBaseTextension system, which runs over CATx cable.The other difference I've found is the connectors themselves. The decent brands have less chance of munching the connection, stay in better (you can even get locking ones), and are terminated better. I've had cheapy Jaycar ones with the rotatable heads barely able to get 2m; pulling apart the end, and there is unshielded/untwisted wires for at least a few cm...

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 21, 2014, 11:52:53 am
content: Quote from: Dr. Frank on May 21, 2014, 11:38:01 amA few years ago all HDMI receptacles got a screw above it. They are meant for modern HDMI plugs to be screwed tight so the weight of the HDMI connector does not get it loose. For older HDMI plug you can buy HDMI clips that fit round HDMI cables and screw it tight (see picture).I used them for all my HDMI cables on the processor where I could hardly reach it (so annoyance to push them back every two months) since the heavier connectors have more problems with it. You can alternatively use other means of mechanical support.But I agree totally with the (*&^(*&^ quality of the HDMI plug you would think that after the SCART debacle where the cable would also get loose if you use all pins connected they would think twice. But no.... Even for HDMI 2.0 where the bandwidth has tripled they still choose the same shitty design so I am already waiting for the next round of complaints with those incredible bandwidths of 4k uncompressed video.

author: saturation
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 21, 2014, 12:04:45 pm
content: Great link and test strategy.I've been using 50c cables since 2008 and work well to 1080p/30fps, i.e., bluray. By 2012 I had so many cables and wondering about new specs I got certified category 2 HDMI from Monoprice cables for $3 each delivered, and they sell them in many colors, so the true advantage for me was color coding which cables came from what device. No difference visually.1st generation HDMI cables, including the cheapo 50c no name cables did have looser fitting HDMI jacks. I think the mechanical integrity was improved later. Also because of the shielding issues, short cheapo cables are likely to be trouble free than those over 3 feet long.Note, because of increased counterfeiting I'd be leery today of any cables from dubious sources [such as eBay no-name], they may not even have wire inside them. In the USA, this company went from a garage operation to what they are today in 10 years.http://www.monoprice.com/Search/Index?keyword=hdmi

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 21, 2014, 12:17:55 pm
content: For the common setup with short cables I buy cheap HDMI cables and haven't had any issues so far. Ok, if you need long cables or you're re-patching them several times, higher quality cables make sense. OTOH, I'm asking myself why there aren't more opticals links used. Copper is fine for short distances and the chips are cheap but if you have longer distances, optical links become the better choice. Or define a transceiver module slot which allows to insert a HDMI or optical module, like the GBICs for Ethernet.

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 21, 2014, 12:31:56 pm
content: "if two files have the same MD5 hash, they're physically and scientifically identical, no argument"Strictly speakingnot exactly, although the chances of them producing an MD5 collision in the frame image are next to nothing.From what I know HDMI is 8b/10b-encoded so I would've liked to see them use a test image that truly stresses the electrical characteristics of the cable i.e. contains mostly high-frequency components, thatmightmake a difference with the cheapest cables (but then again, that would be imperceptible in regular use.)"We had to force an error by reversing a uni-directional cable"Wait, what?

author: Fsck
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 21, 2014, 12:32:21 pm
content: Quote from: madires on May 21, 2014, 12:17:55 pm(consumer) world doesn't like transceivers. increases complexity and cost. and how far do you really need hdmi to go? I live in an apartment so I've never ran into any length issues, 10ft is already overkill for me.also, monoprice's redmere cables are great, they're the most flexible cable used in my home theatre setup. (try bending 2 conductor 12AWG speaker cable with a 1/2 foot bend radius and getting it to stay and not cause damage!)

author: gxti
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 21, 2014, 12:38:11 pm
content: Quote from: amyk on May 21, 2014, 12:31:56 pmDunno. Active cables are (usually?) uni-directional because they have an amplifier/equalizer in one end or both, but I wouldn't expect that to work at all if you had it backwards.

author: madshaman
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 21, 2014, 01:29:04 pm
content: Yikes, it's so uncomplicated, as long as the cable assembly meets spec the only differences from one cable to another are mechanical, like: how sturdy are the connectors? Do they have good tolerances? Is the cable flexible enough to be easy to work with? Does the cable wear well?Why don't more comparisons focus on this important stuff?Why can't we put up a billboard that says: "if it's digital and the cable works, you're already getting maximum fidelity".Honestly, we forget that for most consumers, technology is no different than magic and the stuff an EE says sounds no different than a bulls*** artist to them.What compounds it is that no-one likes to be dumb and many consumers educate themselves by taking bulls*** artists at their word.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 21, 2014, 02:00:32 pm
content: Quote from: madshaman on May 21, 2014, 01:29:04 pmThat's the whole point for HDMI. The cables should be tested on maximum bandwidth and this should be guaranteed and put on the cable.Instead there is no exact spec where the term high speed is guaranteed so every manufacturer puts it on their cables (when it passes at 1 meter) even when it fails after 8 meters.The only company that specifies and guarantees the data througput of their HDMI cables and put their rating in Gb/s on the package is Monster, a company that makes a lot of money and a lot of engineers here will probably call a wanker company, but at least they test it, guarantee it and put it on their cable.That said, I think the whole forum will explode in a giant rant if an A brand testequipment manufacturer would put on their new generation scopes and probes only a bandwidth specification of:high speed

author: Richard Crowley
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 21, 2014, 02:10:18 pm
content: Quote from: madshaman on May 21, 2014, 01:29:04 pmI typically agree with that, but there is a narrow margin where digital circuits engage "recovery" mode and attempt to re-construct a bitstream that has some corruption. Now, most equipment has a "hair-trigger" where it is either 99.4% "good" or else it simply mutes the signal as "unrecoverable".We think of "digital" as simply ones and zeroes. But, of course, in the real world, "one" and "zero" are represented by some analog voltage or current. And getting those analog signals from one place to the other, intact, is the trick. We keep developing better ways of doing this. The latest of which is LVDS (Low Voltage Differential Signaling), TIA/EIA-644. HDMI and DVI and SATA, for example, use LVDS. And the hinge connection between the keyboard/base and the flip-up screen in most laptop computers use LVDS twisted pairs for communication.

author: diyaudio
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 21, 2014, 02:12:26 pm
content: I just buy a cable and normally just grade it based on the build and materials (not the silver and gold claims)

author: Stonent
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 21, 2014, 03:52:36 pm
content: There's a company in the US called Bluejeans cable that custom makes audio and video cables they are significantly less expensive than the wank cables but using better plugs and genuine Belden cable. They claim that they frequently make cables that are used for special situations that exceed and sometimes double the maximum allowed HDMI length before they get noticeable artifacting.I think the owners used to be television broadcast engineers.No nude virgins or tellurium copper though but they are a certified Belden assembler and crimp their connections with a 3 ton press.http://www.bluejeanscable.com/aboutus.htm

author: Fsck
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 21, 2014, 04:03:34 pm
content: Quote from: Stonent on May 21, 2014, 03:52:36 pmactive hdmi is probably still better, though I haven't looked into long runs personally.not sure about the dig against tellurium copper though. it's basically the "proper" default for machined items and electrically superior to beryllium copper (which manufacturers also "promote")

author: Stonent
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 21, 2014, 04:16:23 pm
content: Quote from: Fsck on May 21, 2014, 04:03:34 pmIt was just a joke. Mainly how Dave gets excited about probe connections.

author: SirNick
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 21, 2014, 06:38:34 pm
content: Quote from: Stonent on May 21, 2014, 03:52:36 pmWhen I upgraded to HDMI, I got all my cables from them. Good stuff. I like how they separate the options into useful classifications, like: good for the price, and perfectly OK for short runs; and: you'll want this for feeding a projector, but the bend radius isn't so hot.On the other hand, their RCA cables are a little north of reasonable IMO. I needed an 8-cable snake to connect my 7.1 pre/pro to the amp. I swallowed a bug when I saw the price for a 1m long patch.I picked up a Hosa snake instead, for something like $25.Just for fun, stop by an audiophile forum some time and try to explain why lossless codecs cannot possibly sound different. I went so far as to encode three sample tracks from different genres of music from wave to FLAC and ALAC. Then, I decoded them back to wave. I stripped the header from each, leaving just the PCM data behind, and used a binary comparison tool to compare them. Zero differences -- bit perfect. Nonetheless, "I'm telling you,I heard a difference on my system!" Sure ya did.Guess I just need to upgrade my speaker cable to get those file comparisons to show the real differences.

author: bithead9
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 21, 2014, 08:16:20 pm
content: GREAT article link on Expert Reviews! I always thought there was nothing different (should not be). However my former boss would always brag about his Monster cables! I just laughed(in my head) now I would have an argumentThe only unfortunate thing is that someone wasted their time to prove the obvious.

author: Richard Crowley
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 21, 2014, 08:25:36 pm
content: Monster Cables is doubly despicable IMHO. Not only do they sell wank cables, but they have a legal firm on retainer to harrass and actually shake down (blackmail) ANY company with the work "Monster" in their name, no matter how completely removed from cables they are. They even tried to go after the employment website of that name, but of course the employment website had a bigger law firm than Monster Cables did. There are likely hundreds of little companies that have nothing to do with cables who are paying Monster "license royalties" (i.e. blackmail) to keep using the word "monster" in their name. Just because it was cheaper than hiring an attorney to defend themselves.Moster Cable's legal firm made the mistake of trying to shake down (read: "blackmail") Bluejeans Cable at one point. Alas, the founder of Bluejeans Cable is a former patent-law attorney, and he really gave them what-for in a withering legal response which he as posted on his website. VERY RECOMMENDED READING!http://www.bluejeanscable.com/legal/mcp/

author: Rigby
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 21, 2014, 09:08:57 pm
content: If it has the HDMI logo on the cable, then it'll work. That is literally all you need to know about HDMI cables.I bought a 50' (about 15m) HDMI cable on Amazon for USD$25, and it works great. I probably could have found one less expensive than that.

author: Richard Crowley
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 21, 2014, 09:33:42 pm
content: Quote from: Rigby on May 21, 2014, 09:08:57 pmI wish that were the case. Even 20-foot HDMI cables won't work with the BlackMagic Design ATEM TVS video switcher. It has extraordinarily-picky input circuits that don't seem to tolerate anything more than ~1M.

author: Rigby
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 21, 2014, 10:40:58 pm
content: Quote from: Richard Crowley on May 21, 2014, 09:33:42 pmIn that case I would suspect counterfeit cables, or something. If my TV can switch between three $10 25' HDMI cables and one $25 50' HDMI cable without any trouble, I don't see why that $1000 switcher would have issues.

author: SirNick
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 21, 2014, 11:42:05 pm
content: For better or worse, it seems to be a trend that Blackmagic devices are sometimes rather picky about the signals they accept. Take, for example, the low-end capture card. It is a no-go in the vintage video-game enthusiast community because it can't receive the low-res video modes used by consoles of the NES, SNES, and (depending on the title) N64 era.You might accept this as a matter of course in Blackmagic's target demographic. The user of an expensive video switcher isn't necessarily the same market that looks for bargain-basement HDMI cables. (But better tolerance would probably be appreciated by anyone, regardless...)

author: Legit-Design
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 21, 2014, 11:44:40 pm
content: What about long display port cables, has anyone tried display port cable longer than it's spec of 3 meters for normal cable?

author: hamster_nz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 21, 2014, 11:49:22 pm
content: Quote from: Richard Crowley on May 21, 2014, 02:10:18 pmI think that this would be a good place for active at-home research - I've got something that generates TMDS bitstreams for a DVI-D monitor, so I might introduce a random bit-error every frame and see what happens. Once the parity is out it becomes imposible to relaibly resync the words in the bit stream until the Sync codewords are seen in the blanking interval.Because I can control the timing of the error I could even draw a box around the location that it will occur in. I am guessing that as soon as an error is introduced the bit-stream parity will be out (as there are equal numbers of ones and zeros) and the display will loose sync. I don't beleive that any meaningful recovery can be performed.Maybe, (and just maybe), the monitor will forget to "update" the area of the display that is in error, and the bit error will be invisible.Quote from: Richard Crowley on May 21, 2014, 02:10:18 pmArrgh! I'm about to do that thing that I hate about some EEVBlog posts, and nit-pick on a fine technical matter that has nothing to do with the conversation at hand... please forgive me!The signalling for HDMI and DVI is a form of Current Mode Logic (CML) and not LVDS (seehttp://www.eetimes.com/document.asp?doc_id=1225744for a bit more info). LVDS is good to about 2Gb/s, and CML to 10Gb/s. In application they are much the same but for different signal termination requirements (and therefore the current flow through the circuit). DVI/HDMI/CML requires a 50 ohm pullups to act as a sink, LVDS uses a 100 Ohm termination/sense resistance between both data lines.I've run up against this as an FPGA driver on Spartan6 can be used as an HDMI source without any external bits, but not as a sink.As far as I can understand it, this means that the signalling current is drawn from the sink end of the link rather than being driven by the source (which is how LVDS works)...

author: JuiceKing
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2014, 10:31:53 am
content: At least for analog audio signals, poor connections can have major impact on sound quality.In my audio system, for example, the CD player's RCA output jacks oxidize over a matter of days. Cleaning them with Deoxit makes a huge difference. Even pulling the plug out and putting it back in helps. (Oddly, other connections using the same cables at pre-amp and amp don't have this problem. It's just the CD player's jacks.)Anyway, my theory is that most people who swear a cable "upgrade" improved their system aren't imagining things. But what they've heard has less to do with the magic of the new cable than the fact that their connections were dirty.I've participated in blind listening tests comparing very expensive cables with cheapos from Radio Shack in an extremely high-quality system. The cables were swapped back and forth. The listening panel (including me) couldn't consistently identify the cable in use.But I can tell you for certain that after a week or two, my system can be "rejuvenated" by cleaning that CD player's RCA jacks. It's that simple.I've not gotten around to trying to measure this effect. If the oxidation forms a dielectric, then it should be possible to measure capacitance and maybe even find some non-linearity if it has some diode effect.

author: dexters_lab
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 22, 2014, 02:03:58 pm
content: a long time ago a local audio shop once gave me the choice of a cheap toslink (optical) cable or an expensive one with gold plated tips... i simply rolled my eyes at them and asked for the cheap one

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2014, 02:44:53 pm
content: Why people are talking about toslink (low speed) and even analogue cables (low frequency) in a HDMI cable (ultra high speed, high frequency) topic is beyond me

author: dexters_lab
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 22, 2014, 02:54:20 pm
content: same principals, cables that purport to bring greater signal integrity but in reality its often not required

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2014, 03:12:06 pm
content: Quote from: hamster_nz on May 21, 2014, 11:49:22 pmI think the best test signal for integrity would be one that maximises the frequency component, i.e. a signal that mostly consists of a 010101... pattern.Somewhat similar to how the EFM encoding scrambler on CDs was exploitedby copy protection schemes-- a bit pattern that should be valid, butgets misread because it pushed the hardware beyond margins.

author: G7PSK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2014, 03:35:04 pm
content: When do the gold plated wifi antennas come out in order to give you sharper images and better sound etc as well as flece the purchaser, just around the corner I am sure.

author: Richard Crowley
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2014, 03:36:45 pm
content: Quote from: Rigby on May 21, 2014, 10:40:58 pmI hope you don't think I came to that conclusion based on trying it with one or two cables. Blackmagic Design has a reputation for making bleeding-edge products, but they also have a reputation for making serious blunders and not communicating very well with customers.

author: XOIIO
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2014, 04:08:29 pm
content: Quote from: dexters_lab on May 22, 2014, 02:03:58 pm... gold plated optical cable?

author: M. András
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2014, 05:22:56 pm
content: Quote from: XOIIO on May 22, 2014, 04:08:29 pmohh yeah they do sell those here too at a premium price

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2014, 05:26:08 pm
content: QuoteI heard that the gold plating makes the sound warmer. Tin-plating, on the other hand, makes the sound thin - very tinny, you know.

author: Richard Crowley
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2014, 05:51:26 pm
content: Quote from: dexters_lab on May 22, 2014, 02:03:58 pmDidn't you ask them to explain the benefit of the gold tips? That would have been cheap entertainment.

author: VK3DRB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2014, 08:36:52 am
content: There can be a difference... some crappy cables produce more EMI.

author: Terabyte2007
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2014, 04:03:06 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on May 21, 2014, 10:46:57 amNo doubt. I work in the A/V business and have known this for quite sometime. We use cables in 4K installations that are 18Gbps and the cables only cost 10-20 bucks each, sometimes less. Nothing special and the video looks great. We have also seen this with speaker wire, audio cable, mic cable, video cable and so on. People get sucked into the hype and buy seriously overpriced cables which do them no good at all. Sure they look pretty, but damn!

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2014, 04:12:25 pm
content: The whole discussion misses the point of consumption: different people spend money for different reasons, but with one goal - increasing their utility.If you value tangible things like lower distortion, better bandwidth, buying overly expensive cables, however well constructed, may not do you much good.If you value feeling good about your purchases, buying overly expensive cables, even if it doesn't produce lower distortion or wider bandwidth, makes perfect sense.Freedom and liberty mean just that: you have the right to be silly or stupid.

author: Stonent
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2014, 04:28:15 pm
content: Here's one that gets me... When I see a DVD player connected to a TV using red/white/yellow when both the TV and DVD player have component RCA jacks.I'll take the red, white, yellow cable and use it on the composite connection and find 2 more cables for audio.I've even shown people that and the response was "but that's not the right cable" and I'll say "Does it look better?" and they'll say "Yes, but that's not the right cable"What's the worst that could happen, it somehow looks as bad as composite?

author: Tinkerer
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2014, 05:26:00 pm
content: Quote from: Stonent on May 23, 2014, 04:28:15 pmBecause these people are viewing it as some sort of magic. Kinda like how stories with microwaves abound.

author: SirNick
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2014, 06:45:29 pm
content: Quote from: dannyf on May 23, 2014, 04:12:25 pmThat's true. However... I think many people feel like there's a difference between marketing tactics:MONSTER CABLE: The ultimate in signal integrity -- trust us, your other cables are crap and will carry distortion and subharmonics and gamma rays that will make you fat and bald and give your cat herpes.or..MONSTER CABLE: They do the same thing as the cheap crap at RadioShack, but c'mon... they look pretty and/or formidable! That's gotta be worth 50x the price.... right?So if you're an EE, you'll read the blister pack and see something like the top one, and think... "Yeah right. Nice try. Monoprice it is then." If you're average Joe that doesn't realize electrons have no sense of vanity, you'll think, "Oh gee whiz! My poor cat! Better buy this one then."If you want to sell an equal (if not subpar) product for exorbitant prices, and people are willing to pay that for the benefit of seeing a fancy jacket for the 15 minutes while they hook up all their stuff, and then shove it into a cabinet and not see it again until they have to troubleshoot what stopped working because it was chewed on by their poor, herpetic cat.... well, fine. Just be honest that it's expensive junk that will look really sharp under the layer of dust it will inevitably accumulate. That's all I ask really.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2014, 08:47:03 pm
content: Another audiofool pretending to be an engineer:http://www.overclockers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=746671

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2014, 09:24:04 pm
content: QuoteYou are asking a lot more, actually.You are asking that the merchant be subject to your morality; that the poor under-informed buyers be protected from this scheme; that there is a mechanism that enforces such morality and executes the protection universally and consistently. That, given the track record of governments, is hard to do.Alternatively, we can decide, as a society, if this "immorality" rises to the point of "illegality" and if so, outlaw such acts.Or we can decide that it is fair that people have the right to be under-informed and if they stay under-informed, they bear the consequences of such decision.I think you will find that in the long run, giving a cost for being under-informed helps everyone, including the under-informed. To that point, con artists are providing a valuable service in terms of our evolution.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2014, 09:28:50 pm
content: You can bash monster hdmi cables all you want but they are the only ones testing the bandwidth putting the actual guaranteed Gbps on their package. Yep they are overpriced but they work guaranteed in the specs. All other cables have no specs so you have to wait what you get and yeah for 720p tv series and 1m cables there is no problem i give you that. But my 1080p 3D 24fps and 10m setup sure shows the limitation of some cables.But then you guys probably also use a $10 20MHz probe with a 1GHz scope and yell geeez you see that it works? Indeed it does up till 20MHz.

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2014, 10:17:07 pm
content: Quote from: Kjelt on May 23, 2014, 09:28:50 pmIt's like selling mains wall sockets with a label "240V AC 50Hz" for ten times the price of a standard wall socketThe problem is that most people think that HDMI is HDMI but it isn't. There are about 10 versions! A HDMI 1.0 cable has to support 3,96 GBit/s while the HDMI 2.0 cable has to transfer 14,4 GBit/s. Or would you use a CAT3 TP ethernet cable for GigE? No, you would get a CAT5e or better.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2014, 10:42:57 pm
content: Quote from: Kjelt on May 23, 2014, 09:28:50 pmFunny, I rule 1080p 60fps over 15m of eBay HDMI cable with a daggy DVI to HDMI connector in between; not a problem with the image quality. Although the cheaper cable has a dodgy HDMI connector from many plug-unplug cycles... so next time I might get something more sturdy.Also, it's worth noting that formost3D HDMI uses the same bandwidth as conventional 2D HDMI: the image is sent in a standard encoding format but in a format like side-by-side. (This changed in HDMI v1.4, adding full-frame sequential 3D, but only much more modern TVs and players have support, and most blu-ray discs are encoded only in side-by-side due to compression efficiency.)

author: Richard Crowley
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2014, 12:08:47 am
content: Quote from: Kjelt on May 23, 2014, 09:28:50 pmBaloney. NOBODY sells HDMI cables without testing the bandwith. Probably not every cable out of the injection molding machine, but then Monster doesn't test every cable, eitherQuotePart of their wank marketing. I would rather use rusty barbed wire than anything that came from "Monster". Not only are the a wank company of the FIRST ORDER, but they are also a predator with a legal firm on retainer to shake down everyone they think they can bully. Their business ethics are absolutely at the bottom of the barrel IMHO.QuoteSo you think nobody else guarantees specs? Please.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2014, 12:57:53 am
content: QuoteProbably too strong of a statement.

author: Richard Crowley
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2014, 01:14:40 am
content: Quote from: dannyf on May 24, 2014, 12:57:53 amWhat I mean is that anyone with any $$$ investment at stake wouldn't try selling HDMI cables without even knowing whether they work or not.Unless they are selling floor-sweepings out of a white van in Shenzhen in the middle of the night under a bridge.

author: SirNick
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2014, 01:16:32 am
content: Quote from: dannyf on May 23, 2014, 09:24:04 pmI don't go so far as to suggest it should be illegal, but yes I do object to the morality. That's all. I object, and I complain about it. They have the right to sell the stuff with misleading or untruthful marketing, I have a right to point and stomp my feet. Doesn't do any good, I know, but I'm among mostly sympathetic company and it makes me feel just marginally better about life.

author: Tinkerer
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2014, 01:57:42 am
content: Quote from: dannyf on May 23, 2014, 09:24:04 pmWell, it would be nice if people would tell the truth plainly I think is something everyone can agree on. Although, I think I will agree and say that people have the right to be uninformed instead of saying we need more ambiguous laws.(although, uninformed voting sure is causing lot of problems.QuoteBeing poor doesnt stop people from breeding. Unfortunatly, nor does being stupid. Expecting everyone to become more informed doesnt seem to be a winning race either.

author: bithead9
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2014, 02:09:23 am
content: "Freedom and liberty mean just that: you have the right to be silly or stupid." - Amen brother Danny!

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 31, 2014, 03:37:44 am
content: +1 on monoprice, awesome quality, competitive pricing (not cheap but priced for the quality) and just nice company to deal with.

author: Randall W. Lott
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 31, 2014, 05:25:05 am
content: There is a difference, but not with the signal. Just the durability.If you never unplug the cable, that doesn't matter much either.

author: Stonent
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2014, 12:18:36 pm
content: I only buy certified IEC power cables that have been tested to the full 60Hz of bandwidth.

author: madshaman
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2014, 11:54:02 pm
content: Quote from: dannyf on May 23, 2014, 04:12:25 pm+1I like this way of looking at it.

author: ixfd64
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2014, 04:41:41 am
content: The same goes for Ethernet cables:http://www.amazon.com/Denon-AKDL1-Dedicated-Discontinued-Manufacturer/dp/B000I1X6PM

author: georges80
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2014, 08:03:09 pm
content: The one BIG difference we have seen with HDMI cables is during EMC testing. The shield design around the connector is important to ensure it's not a sieve as far as RF is concerned.The other is the quality (or lack of) in the connector/contacts.cheers,george.