Rigol DS1054Z - Variable Time Base - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: starwolf73
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: August 14, 2015, 01:20:00 am
content: Hi,First I would like to thanks David L. Jones and the community who support it for such a great site and information. I been reading lots of posts and listening to great informative ( and humorous) videos.Done my study in electronic with Motorola 6809 and Z80 almost 20 years from now but... life sent me on another path. So I'm back in electronic as a hobbyist with a lots of project in my mind. I have rebuild my lab with mostly all minimum tool required like a digital scope Rigol DS1054Z, a Old Tek465B, Programmable Power Supply, etc and thanks to eBay for lots of cheap components.Trying to troubleshoot my little project with ESP8266 and a temperature/humidity sensor ( DHT11/22 ), I was trying to adjust the screen to read it better since it was a proprietary protocol. Well, to my surprise, I wasn't able to find the Variable Time Base on my new Digital scope DS1054Z. I did search the web and manual but the scale look like is fixed.I know this is an entry level scope but anyone has find a way to change the Time Scale on this model?Thanks

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2015, 01:43:27 am
content: Welcome to the forum.Most DSO adjustments when "pushed" toggle into a fine adjustment mode.Try that.

author: dadler
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 14, 2015, 01:45:57 am
content: Did you try turning the horizontal time base knob?

author: Electro Fan
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2015, 02:36:22 am
content: The illustration below the link says MSO1104Z but I think the 1000 series has a consistent layout - note No. 18 Horizontal Controlhttp://www.tequipment.net/assets/1/26/MSO1000Z_DS1000Z_UserGuide.pdf

author: alsetalokin4017
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2015, 04:05:37 am
content: Quote from: tautech on August 14, 2015, 01:43:27 amNot on the Horizontal Scale knob of the 1054z. Pushing this knob puts the scope into the "delayed timebase" aka Horizontal Zoom mode but you still only have the fixed sec/div steps available.Only the Channel Vertical Scale knob works to set a "vernier" or fine adjustment V/div mode for the selected channel. Pushing the smaller Vertical Position knob centers the trace vertically; pushing the smaller Horizontal Position knob centers the Trigger point horizontally; pushing the small Trigger Level knob sets the Trigger Level to the baseline position of the selected Trigger Channel.

author: alsetalokin4017
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2015, 04:13:38 am
content: Quote from: Electro Fan on August 14, 2015, 02:36:22 amEr... isn't that a bit obvious?Perhaps the OP means the _variable_ Timebase setting as found on Analog scopes like his 465. The small red knob on the seconds/div knob varies the actual time/div smoothly between the actual set values given by the big switch knob. Most Analog scopes have this feature so that the user can adjust the display for best look when not actually using the fixed timebase values for frequency measurement, or for "on the fly" calibration of the timebase. (Use the "cal" position or detent of the small red knob if doing frequency measurements, or tweak the red knob while monitoring a known frequency source so that the secs/div are exactly accurate on the CRT display.)As far as I am aware this feature doesn't appear on many DSOs, and certainly not on the Rigol 1054Z. You are stuck with the fixed values available on the Horizontal Scale knob detent settings.

author: starwolf73
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: August 14, 2015, 04:10:53 pm
content: Thanks everyone. I was exactly looking for this variable on the fly similar to the one I have on my analog tek465b (red button) which seem to not exist on this digital one. Seem like a nice feature to add.Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2015, 08:11:39 pm
content: Quote from: starwolf73 on August 14, 2015, 04:10:53 pmThis feature already exists on most DSOs, it's called "verticalhorizontal zoom".Edit: corrected

author: starwolf73
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: August 14, 2015, 08:33:10 pm
content: Unfortunately "Vertical" is for voltage where Horizontal is the Time/Frequency Scale. You are correct that Vertical have a Fine adjustment and that is exactly what I'm looking for but on the horizontal scale (Time/Frequency). My Analog Scope Tek 465B have it and I thought this was a basic feature on every scope. I will surely look into this feature next time I bought another Digital Scope.As an example, I'm trying to troubleshoot and learn the proprietary protocol of the sensor DHT11/22 via my digital scope. Since the 0 and 1 are specific to a timing, to better display them I normally would have change the "Variable" Time Scale so one cycle (0 or 1) fit in a square on the scope grid to decode it.Maybe I'm not using the right method. I'm curious to know what other way, you guys, would you have troubleshoot a proprietary protocol like DHT11 with a scope?

author: alsetalokin4017
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2015, 08:49:59 pm
content: I'm not exactly sure what you are trying to do, but perhaps using the 1054z Cursors would help. You can use the "A" and "B" cursors individually to bracket one cycle of your waveform, then you can move them both together along the total waveform to see if other cycles match.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2015, 09:50:43 pm
content: Quote from: starwolf73 on August 14, 2015, 08:33:10 pmYes, I know, I wanted to type "horizontal" and then typed "vertical".QuoteI don't have a Rigol scope (so I can't say if it can do that) but on every DSO I've used and which was made in the last 15 years or so this is done via horizontal zoom function.

author: starwolf73
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: August 15, 2015, 04:07:30 am
content: Quote from: alsetalokin4017 on August 14, 2015, 08:49:59 pmThat a great idea, thanks. I also discovery the function Nth in the trigger which let you trigger on the X edge after a specific idle time. In a more complex way I also found out the REF option which can let you have a ghost grid to compare.Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on August 14, 2015, 09:50:43 pmDon't mixed up the Zoom function with the Variable Time Base. Zoom function has you mention is just the delayed scan time that zoom in a particular time slot on different FIXED scale. Variable Time Base let you change the Fixed scale 100us/10us/1us... to scale in between 100us...10us.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2015, 12:41:26 pm
content: Quote from: starwolf73 on August 15, 2015, 04:07:30 amI know what variable time base on analog scopes does, thanks.QuoteNo, on digital scope it's not (you're mixing it up with what was called "zoom" on some analog scopes, which worked differently). Unless used post-acquisition, horizontal zoom is the *real-time* representation of the acquisition data in a different, *variable* time scale.QuoteExactly. As does horizontal zoom. I attached a screenshot showing a pulse train at a normal time base of 100ns/div and a zoomed *real-time* time base of 23.5ns/div as demonstration.As I said I don't have a Rigol but I would expect that it can do horizontal zooming in a similar way.Edit:I had a very quick(!) look into the DS1000z user manual and it seems that Rigol has implemented its zoom to work in a similar way as on old analog scopes (i.e. via delayed sweep). There also doesn't seem to be any setting to allow variable time bases outside the fixed steps. Unless I missed something that seems like a pretty poor implementation.

author: rf-loop
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2015, 01:45:12 pm
content: How it explain original very simple question about Rigol DS1054Z - Variable Time Base? (Time Base fine adjustment).How this question can generate here this kind of hassle about so simply thing. Is there variable (or vernier, or fine adjust or how we want name it) for TB setting between 1-2-5 fixed steps.RTFM.

author: Marc M.
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2015, 03:03:42 pm
content: On the DS2000 series, the fine or 'un-calibrated' setting is under Horizontal/Menu/ScaleAdjust Course/FineI would expect it to be in the same place on the DS1054Z (if it's supported).

author: Electro Fan
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2015, 03:47:28 pm
content: Quote from: Marc M. on August 15, 2015, 03:03:42 pmI didn't know that was in there - Nice Find!(It's like getting a new productwhen you discover a featurethat's been there all along)

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2015, 03:49:34 pm
content: Quote from: rf-loop on August 15, 2015, 01:45:12 pmI second that. Marc, Würstchenhund -- I appreciate that everybody is trying to be helpful. But since the OP's question was specifically referring to variable time base in the DS1054Z, why don't we leave the answer to users who have or know that instrument? As already pointed out by alsetalokin4017 early on in this thread, the DS1000Z series doesnothave this feature.

author: Electro Fan
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2015, 04:00:32 pm
content: Quote from: ebastler on August 15, 2015, 03:49:34 pmSorry for the noise to signal ratio but FWIW the original DS1000Z manual indicates the feature was present for the original version of the DS1000Z series products; perhaps/apparently it was dropped in the 1054. So to be clear, some of the products in the DS1000Z series have the feature.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2015, 04:02:55 pm
content: Quote from: Electro Fan on August 15, 2015, 04:00:32 pmSorry, mate -- you are confusing "horizontal" and "vertical". We've been there, in this very thread.

author: Electro Fan
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2015, 04:04:47 pm
content: Quote from: ebastler on August 15, 2015, 04:02:55 pmOh.... uh oh, looks like I was either 90 degrees or maybe 270 degrees out of phase.... sorry.

author: Electro Fan
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2015, 04:28:40 pm
content: OK, big disclaimer - This is OFF TOPIC:When the inevitable thread about "what are the differences between the 2000 series and the 1000 series" comes up it would seem that the ability to make fine (vs. coarse) adjustments on the horizontal scale should be on the list. It's not a huge feature but apparently some people use it or would like it....

author: rf-loop
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2015, 05:14:21 pm
content: Quote from: Marc M. on August 15, 2015, 03:03:42 pmSimple.DS2000 have horizontal t/div fine adjust.DS1000Z do not have. (and just also made live check with scope to be absolutely sure)Also same if use DS1000Z horizontal "zoom". Zoom window also have 1-2-5 steps and not fine adjust.Vertical is other case. DS1000Z have vertical fine adjust and normal 1-2-5 steps.

author: IDEngineer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 11, 2019, 04:37:59 pm
content: Ran across this older thread and thought I'd add a couple of comments.Quote from: Electro Fan on August 15, 2015, 04:28:40 pmTo expand our database: The Rigol DS4000 series also has the variable timebase feature, implemented as the "coarse vs. fine" as described.QuoteIt's an important feature for me, if only for the following reason. I like to characterize my firmware so that I understand what percentage of CPU time various modules are consuming. When you're considering choices between integer and floating point math, etc. the amount of CPU consumption can be critical. One way to do this is to set an I/O pin when you enter the code in question and clear that pin when you exit. The result is a pulse whose duration indicates time spent in the code, and whose duty cycle indicates the percentage of CPU consumed by that code. Modern DSO's can automatically calculate and display those values.Code taking different branches upon different invokations appears as jitter. Thus it's nice to average these measurements across multiple pulses. And here's where the variable timebase comes in. It's very unlikely that the period of that waveform will be a convenient multiple of the 1-2-5 timebase sequence. But if you don't correct for that, then the DSO's duty cycle measurement can be off because the DSO calculates those values based on the display. So you use the variable timebase feature to dial in the display such that it's showing an integer multiple of the debug waveform (generally, the left and right edges of the display are both on a rising edge of the signal). Now the screen is displaying an integer number of invokations of the code in question, and the DSO's resulting calculation of duty cycle reflects the percentage of CPU time that is spent in that code.Doesn't everyone develop and debug firmware with an oscilloscope?

author: IDEngineer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 11, 2019, 09:50:15 pm
content: That's handy. I'll look and see if the 4000 series does that too. I haven't tried to use markers to delineate the area to be measured... just for delta-X/Y type stuff.