Electric car for £9500? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Faringdon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 30, 2023, 04:53:50 pm
content: Hi,All new cars must be electric by 2035.Cheapest ATM is Chinese BYD at £25kI reckon, if the government , or someone, payed me, id be able to produce an electric car, 70mph, range 200 miles, 4 seat, for £9000.Would be ugly, but would get from A to B.I dont even think it would be difficult.

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 30, 2023, 04:59:41 pm
content: Looks like an AI troll, the OP must be banned immediately.Do you agree?

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 30, 2023, 05:00:40 pm
content: Off the meds again?

author: Faringdon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 30, 2023, 05:07:30 pm
content: On or off any meds i could knock this product out for cheap, easily.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 30, 2023, 05:09:14 pm
content: Who is stopping you? Go for it.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 30, 2023, 06:12:48 pm
content: Quote from: Faringdon on September 30, 2023, 05:07:30 pmGo on then. Let us know when you're ready for orders. I'll take two.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 30, 2023, 06:20:07 pm
content: Quote from: Faringdon on September 30, 2023, 04:53:50 pmIt is not going to happen. Even the new Euro7 standard which started very ambitiously has been cut down so significantly in the final form that it is almost not worthy of increasing the number from Euro6 to Euro7.

author: voltsandjolts
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 30, 2023, 06:34:21 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on September 30, 2023, 06:12:48 pmI advise caution. The in-vehicle DC-DC converters are likely to be ropey at best.

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 30, 2023, 06:41:13 pm
content: UK car production has been falling steadily every year since 2016.I cannot believe the UK, being outside the major markets (US, EU, China, Japan) can compete in the mass market car production. They can compete in luxury and other niche markets but I cannot see how they could compete with the economies of scale of the big three markets.EU countries have a much larger supplier base and customer base.Today a car assembled in France might have parts from Germany and other countries and those parts might have components from other countries as well.I just cannot see the UK being competitive if they are outside and have to deal with documentation, tariffs, etc.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 30, 2023, 06:45:27 pm
content: Quote from: Faringdon on September 30, 2023, 05:07:30 pmI've been lurking for the last two years, as I have better things to do than hand around here, and was around a long time before then. Through this time and all incarnations of your user account I've seen you deliver absolutely fuck all other than scraping away at other people's existence with your parasitic fantasist attention seeking bullshit, bold claims, stupid questions and general ignorance of the reality of business, engineering and not being a complete dick.Please for gods sake think before you start another one of these fucking threads, open your face hole or do something. Just be normal. You're not special. Neither are any of us.My grandmother said that if you have nothing useful to say, then shut up and listen. Do that. You might learn something.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 30, 2023, 08:02:19 pm
content: Quote from: Faringdon on September 30, 2023, 05:07:30 pmGo for it! About time to revive that rich tradition of quirky and unreliable British cars.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 30, 2023, 09:28:29 pm
content: Quote from: Faringdon on September 30, 2023, 04:53:50 pmSure. Anyone can design and build safe, reliable cars compliant with the required regulations.

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 30, 2023, 10:03:44 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on September 30, 2023, 09:28:29 pmDon't forget the low price point and other requirements: 70mph, range 200 miles, 4 seat, for £9000

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 30, 2023, 10:03:59 pm
content: The electrical and battery controls are the easy stuff, in this day and age.The safety requirements are just as stiff as on presently available automobiles (ICE, hybrid, or battery powered).What is the cheapest ICE vehicle available now in UK?

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 01, 2023, 12:55:37 am
content: Quote from: tom66 on September 30, 2023, 06:12:48 pmProbably will have a "Driveway warranty". Once you've left the driveway - no more warranty.Having said that .... What will be the landed cost in Oz?

author: Shonky
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2023, 01:31:30 am
content: Given you've pulled out 9500 GBP and not guesstimated 9000 or 10000 it seem you have some kind of nonsense BOM to come up with this figure.Post a cost breakdown. If this could be done it would be. You're living in some kind of fantasy land.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 01, 2023, 01:44:38 am
content: I see the BOM as a small part of the exercise. The BIG cost factor is going to be the R&D for the construction of a vehicle that will pass safety requirements for travelling on public roads.Of course, if it's just going to be a paddock basher (ie being driven on private property), then that cost falls to pretty much zero - but it limits the market somewhat.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2023, 01:50:13 am
content: Quotewho said anything about a battery? just that it will be an electric carLeaked pictures of the first prototype

author: Shonky
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2023, 01:50:28 am
content: Fair but for laughs let's ignore R&D costs...

author: .RC.
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2023, 03:49:29 am
content: What is going to happen in the forthcoming copper wars? use aluminium?

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2023, 04:38:00 am
content: What's going to happen with the electricity war?

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2023, 05:37:13 am
content: You guys reading it wrong. £9000 will be the price of the power supply OP will design for an electric car.

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2023, 08:11:04 am
content: In my opinion the UK would be the last one to produce a cheap electric car. By a long margin of probability it would be China and then Japan. At a distance the EU and far behind the USA.

author: hans
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2023, 08:44:42 am
content: QuoteI think I'd rather have a car with a price level of over 9000Anyhow. An car? Is that just 1? Or a series run?200miles = 320kmx 195Wh/km= ~64kWh battery packBattery pack cost 151$/kWh in Dec 6'22Battery pack: 9664$ or £7923.Good luck to build a whole car around it for £1500.

author: Kalvin
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2023, 08:56:55 am
content: Feasible, if "Batteries not included".

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2023, 09:10:41 am
content: Quote from: Faringdon on September 30, 2023, 04:53:50 pmWell maybe if someone "payed" you several hundred million to cover R&D & production facilities and subsidised the batteries you could sell a few, but even then it would be difficult. Production is hard.

author: Faringdon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2023, 09:28:15 am
content: QuoteThanks,In 2017, in UK, you could buy a brand new Dacia Sandero for £5000.It is , and was, a perfectly good, reliable , comfortable car.

author: Shonky
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2023, 10:08:43 am
content: It was more than that and how is the price from 6 years ago relevant?

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2023, 10:38:23 am
content: Quote from: Faringdon on October 01, 2023, 09:28:15 amNow £14K

author: Faringdon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2023, 11:28:37 am
content: QuoteIt was ~£5000 in around 2015-2017.It shows it can be done...not that long ago.The car was unfairly trashed on Top Gear so didnt sell well.

author: hans
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2023, 11:36:11 am
content: Eh, no:https://www.buyacar.co.uk/dacia/sandero/sandero-hatchback/238/dacia-sandero-2013-2021QuoteAnd subsequently, the entry level trim which nobody buys got axed in 2021:https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/dacia-sandero-nudges-%C2%A310000-access-entry-trim-axedThat car costed 10.8kEUR in NL around 2015. Thats 13.7k in todays money. A new one costs 14.5k EUR. So they're asking 800 EUR more for it, but considering we had a chip shortage, a covid crisis (everyone got out public transport, needed a cheap or 2nd hand car) and possibly tax changes, it's not too strange.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2023, 11:56:33 am
content: Over here list prices for the basic Dacias are 11 300€ for the Sandero and 22 700€ for the electric "Spring" (reduced to 15 500€ after subsidies). Not that far apart if one can live with the limited range of the Spring.

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2023, 11:57:55 am
content: The original Sandero wasn't tested for NCAP safety. The current 2021 Sandero model scores an impressive.... 2 Star NCAP rating! (Source, official Euro NCAP site).Would your £9k figure include NCAP testing and decent safety rating, or would buyers and their families have to rely on the 'trust me' approach.

author: HwAoRrDk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2023, 04:23:31 pm
content: I think Mr. Faringdon may end up crashing his marvellous motor vehicle through Chesterton's Fence if he thinks in this day and age a competent, safe, and desirable electric car can be produced for £9500.

author: langwadt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2023, 07:37:36 pm
content: Quote from: Gyro on October 01, 2023, 11:57:55 amtbf some of the NCAP stuff is a bit .... being safe in a crash is just a part of it, to get a top rating you need things like automatic braking for cyclist, be soft to a pedestrian you run over, have lane assist, parking assist etc.

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2023, 08:02:59 pm
content: Oh agreed, you need lots of safety bits to come out with 5 stars these days but, downloading the pdf report, things like chest protection in frontal impact come out as marginal too (lack of belt load limiters I think).

author: jpanhalt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2023, 09:14:03 pm
content: Quote from: Faringdon on September 30, 2023, 04:53:50 pmHave you considered GoFundMe or a KickStarter? Heck, I might even spot you that cash IF YOU PROVIDE INSURANCE YOU WILL DELIVER IN 9 MONTHS (or any agreed upon time frame). Now, if you can't deliver within the agreed upon timeframe, what would the penalty be? That's the problem you have created.

author: Circlotron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2023, 09:41:51 pm
content: eevblog forum will need a whole new sub section just to deal with all the design questions that will asked along the way.And what would this new car be named?

author: langwadt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2023, 09:53:21 pm
content: Quote from: Circlotron on October 01, 2023, 09:41:51 pmimaginary?

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2023, 10:10:01 pm
content: Quote from: Circlotron on October 01, 2023, 09:41:51 pm"F-King" car, in honor of the creator's alias.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2023, 11:13:16 pm
content: Quote from: Faringdon on October 01, 2023, 09:28:15 amYou know where Dacia cars are manufactured, right? And they are benefiting from decades of experience in the car industry from both former Dacia and Renault. Definitely not your random newcomer.With that said, are most car makers currently milking the green cow and will be for years to come with EVs? Absolutely!

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2023, 11:35:59 pm
content: As usual, beaten to the punch by themmeddlingupstartsuperior foreign engineers:https://tiagoev.tatamotors.com/price/

author: Shonky
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2023, 12:48:28 am
content: Quote from: Someone on October 01, 2023, 11:35:59 pmNow deliver it to the UK fully compliant with vehicle requirements and see how much it costs.As usual this thread is another time sink. Nonsense premise and then when simple questions are asked Faringdon just ignores them. I was somewhat anti ban before but how do these threads add any value here? Yes the solution is auto ignore the user but so is banning.I can't possibly see why he's held so many positions over the years. /s

author: ejeffrey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2023, 01:24:58 am
content: Quote from: hans on October 01, 2023, 11:36:11 amExactly: even if someone could produce such a cheap car, you wouldn't get a lot of people in the UK actually buying it -- regardless of whether it's electric.Most people want crash safety and power seats and emergency braking and navigation systems, and everything else in modern cars. If they can afford it they are willing to pay for them. The few people who don't want those things are already driving some 1990s economy hatchback held together by duct tape and they like it that way. They aren't going to buy your new car either.So to sell such a cheap car you would need to either do so in a market that values those features less or aren't willing or able to pay for them. Or make a car that people in the UK actually want.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2023, 07:49:42 am
content: Quote from: Circlotron on October 01, 2023, 09:41:51 pmTreez 007

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 02, 2023, 08:14:26 am
content: Quote from: Circlotron on October 01, 2023, 09:41:51 pmGrim Reaper

author: .RC.
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2023, 08:36:06 am
content: Quote from: Circlotron on October 01, 2023, 09:41:51 pmThe Pinto.With an advertising blurb.Ignite an inferno of fun. Get in and in no time at you will be burning down the highway. Years from now they still be recalling the Pinto. Get one quick because they are hot, hot, hot.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2023, 10:15:04 am
content: Quote from: Shonky on October 02, 2023, 12:48:28 amPlus VAT at 20% and import duty for non-EU manufacture at 10% plus any consumer rights legislation (right to reject if defective, mandatory parts supply, recalls for safety issues etc.) A huge amount of car cost is paying for these added consumer benefits.

author: nali
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2023, 10:29:53 am
content: Quote from: Circlotron on October 01, 2023, 09:41:51 pmThe Mitty.Heck, make it amphibious too :- the Water Mitty.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2023, 10:38:59 am
content: Quote from: Faringdon on September 30, 2023, 04:53:50 pmQuote from: Faringdon on September 30, 2023, 05:07:30 pmAI generated post?Attention seeking individual?Troll?Naive fool?Could be any or all of those, who knows.More importantly, IMHO it doesn't matter. The key point is that the OP bringing the forum into disrepute, and degrading its usefulness.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2023, 10:45:28 am
content: We finally reveal the face of Faringdon

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2023, 11:57:56 am
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on October 02, 2023, 10:45:28 amFaringdon, can you confirm or deny that is you in those videos?

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2023, 12:15:27 pm
content: Quote from: nali on October 02, 2023, 10:29:53 amIts not going to fly?

author: vad
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2023, 12:47:06 pm
content: An electric car for £9,500 is entirely feasible. It could even go lower. Consider subcontracting a Chinese EV car maker, modifying one of their models to meet safety compliance requirements, and then seeking taxpayer subsidies to cover the cost difference.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2023, 12:50:23 pm
content: Quote from: vad on October 02, 2023, 12:47:06 pmThere are electric cars in China for well under £9,500. They aren't very large, or sophisticated, or long range. On the other band, they seem practical for use around town, like a kei car in Japan.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 02, 2023, 12:53:38 pm
content: The renault twizz ? they don't make those anymore as people tend to want a bike or a car, not a bastardization of the two. That was "cheap" no modcons, bit cold and breezy

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2023, 12:59:13 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on October 02, 2023, 12:53:38 pmThose things were a joke. The vehicle looked OK. The price looked OK. The two did NOT match up. I think at a more reasonable price there would have been a reasonable market for scooter like applications.

author: nali
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2023, 01:07:53 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on October 02, 2023, 12:53:38 pmI remember seeing one of those for the first time in London first impressions was "what the f*** is that?" as I recell.Citreon Ami looks like it might be fun at just under £8k, I'm trying to convince my wife that she needs one as she wants a smaller car for whizzing down the tiny lanes here in the rural South West

author: langwadt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2023, 01:11:54 pm
content: Quote from: nali on October 02, 2023, 01:07:53 pmtop speed 45km/h ....

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 02, 2023, 01:27:49 pm
content: ... when pushed off the top of a building.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2023, 01:50:18 pm
content: If I underdeliver enough I can do you one for £500.https://www.argos.co.uk/product/9544725(£180 distribution fee added to the supplier cost)

author: nali
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2023, 02:15:57 pm
content: Quote from: langwadt on October 02, 2023, 01:11:54 pmThat's plenty, you've never driven round here then......nor been a passenger with my wife

author: hexreader
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2023, 02:25:36 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on October 02, 2023, 10:38:59 amMy guess is that options 2,3 and 4 apply, but I am no behavioural analyst or psychiatrist, so I do not know for sure.You missed out option 5:5) amoral scammer/fraudster/crookI have no idea if option 5 is true or false, but if I were to invest, I would want to investigate the possibilityI suspect that if anyone were to be duped into investing in treez, there would be no intention and/or ability on his part of putting any of the investment into any kind of real productAll evidenced on old old post still available from history:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/electronics-device-to-count-numbers-of-people/msg3958469/#msg3958469Quote+1 for a third forum ban on this forum, plus all other aliasescupoftea, eem2am, Faringdon, flyback, opampsmoker, treez, zenerbjt, ocset

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2023, 02:27:07 pm
content: That's worse garbage than the VC shit I have to listen to in the fintech industry

author: AVGresponding
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2023, 04:38:58 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on October 02, 2023, 10:45:28 amHah, yes I remember watching this loon. Serious lack of understanding of the laws of physics, thermodynamics, or even basic logic.He should get this guy to be his chief development engineer:

author: hexreader
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2023, 04:50:35 pm
content: Regarding lead acid car videos in reply #50 ....Has anyone noticed how the car body above has an opaque windscreen?Does anyone think it odd that there is no video of the car travelling along a road?Maybe I am just too scepticalI call BS on those videos

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2023, 04:53:15 pm
content: Quote from: hexreader on October 02, 2023, 02:25:36 pm6) Total incompetent who's too dumb to realise that he shouldn't troll the people he regularly ask for help doing his day job.

author: hexreader
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2023, 04:55:52 pm
content: Good pointMy bet is on 2) to 6) inclusiveplus maybe 7, 8, 9 10 and above...Not good whatever way you view it...I will not be investing (ROFL)

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2023, 09:32:22 pm
content: Quote from: Shonky on October 02, 2023, 12:48:28 amYou're thinking Australian levels of automtoive protectionism/safety/red-tape. UK is the land of road legal lounge chairs:https://www.thedrive.com/news/28311/watch-this-couch-drive-down-the-highway

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2023, 09:47:44 pm
content: Quote from: Someone on October 02, 2023, 09:32:22 pmThere is a difference between building a single custom car and importing pre-made cars for sale. Custom junk is permitted in most places with minimal regulations. But once you start talking productions quantities, you are in a huge trouble.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2023, 10:36:37 pm
content: Quote from: ataradov on October 02, 2023, 09:47:44 pmIts actually not that different for mass volume, other than needing to undertake the mandatory compliance tests. Having actually looked into this.Yes you might end up with a comically low safety rating, but those vehicles still end up on the market. Or sell them as second hand and that all disappears.ps, most places might have minimal regulations, but Australia is the reverse being harder to register one-off/custom vehicles than arbitrary mass volume vehicle from some other country. Having actually looked into this.....

author: Shonky
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 03, 2023, 02:38:22 am
content: Quote from: Someone on October 02, 2023, 09:32:22 pmNo I'm thinking to make an actual production car. You can't just attach an engine to something and sell it as a car even in the UK.Import costs/duties as well.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 03, 2023, 02:50:58 am
content: Quote from: Shonky on October 03, 2023, 02:38:22 amThe barriers are fairly low in the UK for that sort of thing:"In the case of unmodified Mass Produced vehicles, the standards in this section shall be considered to be met."Bringing an already engineered vehicle into the UK is not some Sisyphean task, and relatively encouraged/easy compared to other markets (like say Australia). That Tata motors model also demonstrates the discussed price point is achievable in volume. So it would be believable to import that model which is..... already electric and passing through UN/ECE harmonised testing:https://www.globalncap.org/s/SaferCarsForIndia-Tigor-2021-fact-sheet.pdf

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 04, 2023, 06:23:10 am
content: Quote from: AVGresponding on October 02, 2023, 04:38:58 pmI needed that laugh - though I'm glad it was only highlights. My head would have exploded if there was any more of it.It is appropriate here, though.

author: woodchips
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2023, 09:16:04 am
content: I am seriously impressed with just how objectionable the people are on this forum. Not one 'hey, how would the car be made' post at all, just flaming and snide comments.Note that the OP gave no boundaries to what this car would be other than price and performance. So, lets think outside the box. In my odd trips to the scrap yard I see cars with early noughties registration plates on them, so 20 years old. Why are they scrapped I ask? Fag tray is full, or more usually they can't be bothered to replace the cam belt, stuffed engine. So here we have a complete car, just missing a working engine. Why not replace with an electric motor and some batteries?Lots of space to hold the batteries, and if use lead acid then a reasonable price as well. Need a speed control, ever used an electric fork lift truck? My one worked fine with a not very expensive speed control, even has regenerative braking. A range of 100 miles at 5 miles/kWh means 20 kW, a 12V at 100Ah is 1.2kWh, so need 24V at 1000Ah. A 6V 150Ah battery is 22kg so total weight is about 600kg, easily carried in a small car missing the engine and transmission. Lead acid batteries are a well known item, can be endlessly recycled, easily available in a huge range of size and capacity, and weight can't be a problem when electric cars seem to be over 2 tonnes.What else is needed? Got rust free body shell, brakes, steering, door, windows, all safety approvals, so just a heater for winter.There are people who will replace your classic car engine with an electric drive, price I have seen is about £50k, not really affordable. There is so much traffic on the roads now that single carriageway speeds are about 45mph from my experience.So, how about it, what would be possible using scrap car body shells?

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2023, 09:22:58 am
content: Quote from: woodchips on October 04, 2023, 09:16:04 amI think you miss the problem here which is not the topic, but the user. You need to understand some of the history behind the user to appreciate the comments.

author: Shonky
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2023, 09:23:12 am
content: Quote from: woodchips on October 04, 2023, 09:16:04 amMaybe go back and look at poster's history (and previous aliases)? And when asked reasonable questions like post a cost breakdown it's completely ignored anyway.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2023, 02:35:53 pm
content: Quote from: woodchips on October 04, 2023, 09:16:04 amPersonal background of the OP aside, I understood his idea to be for a production-model car, not a personal tinkering project. And I can't see a viable business model which starts with scrap car shells. Availability of "good enough" shells (of the right model) would severely limit you, and the quality control, warranty and liability issues sound like a nightmare.

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2023, 03:18:31 pm
content: Quote from: hans on October 01, 2023, 08:44:42 amThis is where median vs. average matters (and median over the whole population i.e. taking number of cars sold for each model into account). The average of this list is clearly biased by large vans, which, due to frontal area and weight are going to consume more. OP is designing a small (4-seater, not even 5!) car, so Tesla Model 3 numbers would be closer. In city traffic, numbers around 140-150Wh/km are realistic in all smaller passenger cars (excluding those stupid large SUV-type frames).

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2023, 03:38:26 pm
content: Even my ID.3 which has a modest aero footprint gets around 170Wh/km even at highway speeds in summer. In city traffic (stop start) I've seen 130-140Wh/km provided I'm careful with regen and don't gun it at the lights every time!

author: langwadt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2023, 05:00:32 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on October 04, 2023, 03:38:26 pmCitroën Ami claims 70km on a 5.5kWh battery ~= 80Wh/km but that's barely a car with only two seats and a top speed of 45km/h

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 04, 2023, 05:25:03 pm
content: Quote from: woodchips on October 04, 2023, 09:16:04 amYou see, some of us actually are engineers. Some of us have had to develop products and seen the costs of the products beyond the components.Note that the OP gave no boundaries to what this car would be other than price and performance. So, lets think outside the box. In my odd trips to the scrap yard I see cars with early noughties registration plates on them, so 20 years old. Why are they scrapped I ask? Fag tray is full, or more usually they can't be bothered to replace the cam belt, stuffed engine. So here we have a complete car, just missing a working engine. Why not replace with an electric motor and some batteries?Quote from: woodchips on October 04, 2023, 09:16:04 amit's a small matter called safety and complying with regulationsQuote from: woodchips on October 04, 2023, 09:16:04 amHave you asked these people why they charge so much? partly it is the classic car effect, but those kits have to be developed and gain approvals. Then each car has to be re approved as it is now a new and unique car that requires examination by the relevant authorities to ensure it complies with regulations.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2023, 05:39:41 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on October 04, 2023, 05:25:03 pmI know why. I ran those cars for many years. They are mostly held together with paint and moss.Not only that they are designed with a specific weight distribution for handling which is difficult to reproduce with batteries. I've seen some conversion kits offered where they distribute the battery between the engine compartment and the boot. But you lose the boot and the handling is much worse.I think it's probably better the material is recycled and turned into new EVs.But there is a bigger issue is that the average age of a car in the UK is 11.6 years because everyone is fucking poor and can't afford shiny new cars, even if they are only £10k. The most I ever paid for a car was £5.5k. Until there is a well understood second hand EV market running for a couple of decades, which there *definitely* isn't now, then we are cruising towards the edge of a cliff. The second hand EV market is completely different to the second hand ICE market as well as the economics are different. Two distinct differences are the capital risk of EV battery replacement and the manufacturer's software.

author: woodchips
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2023, 05:42:19 pm
content: Coo, some response, bit naff though.Do you have to re-approve a car if it is changed? Not in the UK, put a different engine in and off you go. This is all I am suggesting, a different engine, the safety, steering and brakes stay the same. If it is an approval problem then something for the government to change then isn't it? Restrict the speed to 60mph say. As for selling outside the UK then why, enough cars, RHD, for the UK, other countries can do what they want.I have no idea who the OP is or has done, I just took the post as is and thought about it.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2023, 06:12:20 pm
content: There are a few companies doing EV conversion kits, mostly for the original VW bus, the VW Beetle, and the venerable (and much missed) original VW Golf, of which there are probably around 4 million in my country alone, seeing as they were locally made for 38 years with minimal upgrades to the basic design, aside from those due to needing to replace whole swathes of the production line, as it fell apart from wear. There are some EU based converters, who do EU spec vehicles, and they seem to be doing well in a bespoke way. Depending on the company, it varies in range and power, and in battery type. Some are highway legal, as they can reach 80kph, while others will only reach 60kph.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 04, 2023, 06:32:51 pm
content: Quote from: woodchips on October 04, 2023, 05:42:19 pmyou can't change a car without approval. The car is designed and tested and approved to be safe, if you change something to make it different from the original design then it is no longer road worthy.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2023, 06:38:36 pm
content: Quote from: woodchips on October 04, 2023, 05:42:19 pmThe battery and charger won't require any safety consideration at all, right? And the drivetrain won't require any change except swapping out the engine? Do you prefer your electric cars with a manual or automatic transmission?QuoteKeep thinking a bit more.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2023, 08:16:57 pm
content: Quote from: woodchips on October 04, 2023, 05:42:19 pmThe OP has form. A lot of form. None of it good.Then he makes extraordinary claims (again) without anything even resembling extraordinary evidence.I'll think about it if it was a different OP or the OP gave any evidence for his claims.

author: hans
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2023, 09:20:27 pm
content: Quote from: Siwastaja on October 04, 2023, 03:18:31 pmI get your point, I agree in the difference of avg vs median, but for the sake of this discussion I don't really care. I haven't read what kind of a car I will buy for my 9500. A hatchback, sedan, or SUV-MPV crossover? Its a big assumption that some random person will make an electric car as aerodynamically, mechanically and electrically efficient that it directly competes with modern competitors.With that I think its still a fair ballpark figure to use slightly more pessimistic values.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2023, 09:38:14 pm
content: The cost of the car itself is likely to become moot in a few years from now anyway, if by then you have to sell a kidney to pay for a year's worth of charging. (Oh and also if all you can do is rent it rather than buy it.) Just a thought. Of course it will never happen.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2023, 09:59:45 pm
content: Agreed. IMHO those who say we should consume less have it completely wrong. We should consume more efficient, not less. Consuming less means evolving backwards like walking on all four instead of upright.

author: MT
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2023, 10:09:47 pm
content: There are clearly room for "affordable" cars, as such have been manufactured numerous time for past 100 years like the "faster Ford horse". Strip off all electronic garbage for example,referring to the University of Gothenburgs study from 2017 telling us 74.2 % of the cars price is due to electronics. The thing is, the car mafia (read banker families) dont want to makeaffordable cars BECAUSE in 2035 you are supposed to embrace the ; own nothing, eat bugzz and be happy, paradigm.....while sometimes if your social scoring are OK be able to renta car for an hour driving out of your 15 min city to the protected CO2 free pristine natural nature watching the natural animals like squirrel, moose and rabbits.

author: Circlotron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 05, 2023, 12:57:36 am
content: Quote from: MT on October 04, 2023, 10:09:47 pmReference please.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 05, 2023, 01:32:21 am
content: Quote from: Simon on October 04, 2023, 05:25:03 pmEven ignoring the practicality of converting an ICE vehicle to EV (it's not as simple as you think), uh.. how much time have you spent working on cars, exactly? I've spent enough hours under 15-20 year old cars to know just how bad they get.. complete car, minus 10% of its original weight in rusted away material. But the rear axle gets lubed every time you brake hard!

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 05, 2023, 05:46:31 am
content: Quote from: hans on October 04, 2023, 09:20:27 pmYou will get an ugly 4-seater.QuoteWhat? You don't believe in treez' aerodynamic design skills? This guy is world-class. I'm sure he'll deliver.Quite seriously, I was commenting on that consumption number because the small size of the vehicle was obvious given the specification of 4 seats, and with top speed of 112km/h, people would mostly such car for commute / city driving. Even home-made conversions of old (1980's) cars of this size go well below 200 Wh/km, and this is despite use of heavy battery chemistries like 30Wh/kg lead acid or 90Wh/kg chinesium crap LFP, so it's not particularly difficult goal to achieve.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 05, 2023, 06:04:40 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on October 04, 2023, 09:59:45 pmLess can be more efficient. Lost of things people do is just pointless. Several people in my company live in the same small town, do we lift share? I would net even dare broach the subject. We just travel to work in a convoy almost.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 05, 2023, 07:00:44 am
content: Quote from: Simon on October 05, 2023, 06:04:40 amAccording to whom? That's so pretty when people start deciding for everyone what is pointless and what is not.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 05, 2023, 09:05:22 am
content: Quote from: Simon on October 04, 2023, 05:25:03 pmAn old car is unique; it might have rust, worn suspension, it might have one type of rear axle or another, different braking systems, different final drive, etc. Where is the engineering resource to design hundreds of custom systems for these vehicles and find places to fit electric motors and batteries? And all this work on a car that might last 5 more years before having to have substantial overhaul?It's far simpler to crush them into a cube and recycle them. Cars are possibly the most recycled consumer item out there. Something like 50% of the steel in a modern car is recycled, and aluminium (where present) can approach 80%.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 05, 2023, 10:21:37 am
content: Quote from: tom66 on October 05, 2023, 09:05:22 amI don't think Simon is writing about rare classic cars but common models build to reasonable quality standards like a Toyota Corolla, Ford Focus / Volvo V50, etc. The models that got sold in the hundreds of thousands with very little variation between them. There are two things that really wear on a car: the engine + gearbox and the suspension. If you do a complete suspension overhaul (which sets you back around 2.5k euro), you have a car that drives like new from the factory and has lots of life left. Still, for a battery conversion you'd need to have a place to put the batteries in an existing car which isn't very easy as it has not been designed to accomodate a battery pack. That is where the conversion gets labour intensive and thus expensive.

author: mendip_discovery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 05, 2023, 12:00:13 pm
content: In the UK any changes to a vehicle are based on a points / percentage thing. So you could change an engine like for like or change a few suspension parts but if you make any big changes such as converting to electric it will need to go for a inspection which isnt that bad as long as it meets the specifications. Adding a lot of extra weight may cause some issues but so far its seems to work.I asked at a place the cost for converting my 24 year old Land Rover Defender 110 and they said it would be around £60k if I fitted it myself. So for now I am just waiting for the hover convertion to become available as that is worth the extra cost for the MrFusion setup.The whole idea of cheap electric cars isnt new and China is making a lot of them but the current market is for better build quality than what would be offered at the 6k price range. It's bad enough that several of the options at the moment are plastic poor build quality cars aka American with a few Euro and Japanese cars at the higher end.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 05, 2023, 01:12:40 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on October 05, 2023, 10:21:37 amA car is more than just driving though. You need DC-DC converter for 12V stuff, you need climate control, possibly air con, you need a radiator for the electric system and A/C (even if the electric rad is smaller), you need to fit a charge port, you need to make sure all of the safety systems like airbags, ESP, ABS etc work ok. All EVs need A/C because the battery pack needs cooling when charging (this is why even the 15kEUR Dacia Spring has A/C). You need to replace the vacuum brake system with an electronic brake pump. The dashboard needs to read speed and fault codes correctly. The gearbox and clutch need replacement or adjustment to work right, it would probably want locking in 3rd/4th gear which could create unusual wear due to high motor torque. All of this needs to be safe and reliable for 100k+ miles.You might be able to build a package for something like a Mk4 Golf and save those from the recycler, but you'd have to have thousands of customers willing to pay 20kEUR+ for what is essentially an old slightly knackered Golf that's electric. Meanwhile you can buy for not much more something like a brand-new e-208 or a second-hand e-Golf. It would be a tough sell I think.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 05, 2023, 05:32:25 pm
content: Car conversions are a waste of time. it is bad enough that you can buy an "electric" car that is not more than a rushed conversion by the manufacturer from chitty chitty bang bangs to electric in the "design", they are generally awful. there is an MG car that only uses the hydraulic brakes in cruise control, because they did not want to re integrate. My cupra born does not seem willing to use the hydraulics when it has run out of regen braking, at least that is the impression I got when someone pulled out ahead of me and the car went bannanas and apparently could not slow down enough unless I slamed my foot on the brakes.It's a shame that basically you can't buy a decent car these days, they are all crap unless you are minted.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 05, 2023, 05:46:30 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on October 05, 2023, 05:32:25 pmIf that was in adaptive cruise mode its normal, and has nothing to do with the regen vs hydraulic braking split. If you look at the manual for most ICE powered cars with adaptive cruise they say the automated braking will not apply more than 40% or 50% of total available braking. I haven't seen one that explains why. Around town, when the collision avoidance braking kicks in, that can be quite aggressive. A pigeon crossing quite close in front of my car one day produced very heavy braking, so the automated system is capable of an emergency stop, even though that one was spurious. Its a good thing nobody was close behind me.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 05, 2023, 05:55:54 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on October 05, 2023, 05:46:30 pmYeah, this is definitely the case. My ID.3, which is essentially the German-badged version of the Born, is limited to somewhere around 50%. I've had it light the collision warning up when approaching stopping traffic, it's essentially saying "I've reached maximum braking authority, you need to do more!"As for hydraulic vs regen, not true at all. Braking performance is identical in ACC, it will modulate as required to reach equivalent deceleration. Regen is only about 10% of the total braking capacity of the car. Enough for normal usage, but certainly nothing like pressing the brake pedal even moderately hard. So full battery with no regen doesn't make much difference and the control loop compensates by applying brakes more when battery is full if it's not slowing fast enough.In 'B' mode this doesn't apply, since 'B' is just "max regen when not pressing the pedal", you need to press the brake pedal if you need more deceleration -- at a guess this is not done because you might not realise the brakes are being pressed while going down hill and therefore could overheat the brakes unknowingly.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 05, 2023, 06:47:58 pm
content: well I've not read enough of the manual to know the details but it is like, I can be in D mode and it will slow down by itself for a junction - only the junctions in it's database which makes it only semi functional - so you think cool, a bit like partial cruise control, will slow down for speed changes too. Oh but if there is a car in front of you it will do nothing and scream blue murder, I mean what the fuck is all that about. If it is strict adherence to law then they should not put such half cocked features in that turn out worse than nothing, or is it simply poor integration. The car has the ability to detect something ahead and slow down but in this driver assist mode it won't. It makes the thing so complicated to drive in a mode that is supposed to make life easier that you may as well turn the lot off.Oh and don't beleive what cupra say about fitting a better media controller or whatever you call the screen, it's awful!

author: vad
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2023, 12:57:58 am
content: The cheapest BYD Seagull has a 305 km range, and its price tag starts at 78,800 yuan, which is just shy of £9,000.

author: Shonky
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2023, 01:17:26 am
content: Quote from: vad on October 06, 2023, 12:57:58 amRight but where can this be purchased in the UK or outside China? My point being that it's unlikely to be suitable in many countries.300km is based on China's version of range tests which are "optimistic"A very "theoretical price estimate" starts at the equivalent of 13k GBP here in Australia

author: vad
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2023, 01:25:03 am
content: Quote from: Shonky on October 06, 2023, 01:17:26 amIt's just an illustration that the 9.5K GBP price point is not as crazy as it might seem, and it has already been achieved in other market.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2023, 01:34:45 am
content: Quote from: vad on October 06, 2023, 01:25:03 amIt's been achieved, but does that thing even come close to meeting the standards required of vehicles in other markets?We don't need more horror stories like this:https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-67005620

author: Veteran68
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2023, 02:05:31 am
content: Quote from: coppice on October 05, 2023, 05:46:30 pmMy 2021 Audi Q5 will definitely slam on the brakes HARD if it thinks you're about to hit something. Like, snap you forward in your seatbelt and almost giving you whiplash. It's extremely unnverving when it's a false alarm and comes out of nowhere, where it misinterprets something as an imminent collision but it's not. You can disable it, but I do like the peace of mind that it brings if one day I'm not paying attention, fall asleep/pass out, or whatever. It might save somebody, and it's far faster than my reflexes could ever be -- I just wish their detection was a bit more foolproof.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2023, 12:32:56 am
content: Quote from: Veteran68 on October 06, 2023, 02:05:31 amYeah, that's not something I personally am comfortable enabling so far.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 07, 2023, 08:21:46 am
content: the born/i3 screams blue murder when I am going around parked cars. when I drove an ioniq (uh horrible thing) it would scream at me when I approached a certain bend as it could not distinguish the pavement from the road and decided that I was headed for the school kids that it probably assumed where on the road.These things will only work with good stereoscopic vision and god only knows how much processing power to do all of this in true 3D.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2023, 09:15:44 am
content: I owned a model S for a couple of weeks (my father’s when he dropped dead). It was the same. Driving down the M4 at 70mph and it made the usual “phong” sound and tried to chuck me through the windscreen. Literally no other cars around. Even when it wasn’t trying to kill me it was complaining constantly.If there’s no repeatability or determinism then you can’t trust the system. Hence I felt safer in my zero tech Citroen C3.

author: hans
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2023, 09:23:38 am
content: Quote from: Veteran68 on October 06, 2023, 02:05:31 amCould be 2 different systems at play. Adaptive cruise is a comfort feature. Collision avoidance systems are safety features. It can make some sense that a comfort feature wont engage brakes at 100%, while a safety feature most definitely should.Both systems also may use a different mix of sensors. IIRC collision avoidance systems almost always use some vision system, while ACC usually rely on some radar sensors as well. Radar sensors may have a non-zero min. range though, while vision may not work well at larger distances. There is probably some large amount of sensor fusion and data processing going on that is tuned "just so" (in next-gen they will call it AI powered for higher sales) in order to pass standard road tests. But practice may beg to differ.I can understand keeping such a system on out of fear of driving into a truck or obstacle with >100km/h at night after a tiring day. But those unnecessary emergency stops are also not without danger, for example when someone is not expecting/reacting to it in time.Correct me if I'm wrong, but iirc collision avoidance systems for pedestrian safety has been mandatory on all cars in EU for a few years now (even a VW Up! has it). But usually those baby-systems only work at low city speeds (30km/h max)

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2023, 02:51:01 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on October 07, 2023, 09:15:44 amMost cars with a bunch of sensors are quite quirky. The ultrasonic sensors used for close in obstacle detection tend to alert once every trip or two on some low and innocuous kerb, or when a car creeps past in a jam, with an entirely reasonable separation from you. My car alerts about a frontal issue at the end of our drive. It drops about a metre from our house to the road with a gentle slope, but something about the relative position of the sloping car approaching the horizontal road triggers the ultrasonic sensors every time. That one is no bother. Its just expected now. Thankfully those sensors do behave well when you are relying on them in a tight car park.

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2023, 04:12:46 pm
content: It is extremely alarming and nearly unbelievable to hear stories how modern cars, approved in all Western markets, use computer vision systems (camera-only) to achieve collision avoidance by applying full braking when image recognition algorithm guesses there is an obstacle present. Having been involved in some robotics years back, my light-professional viewpoint is that cameras cannot be used for automotive collision detection. Not stereoscopic; even less single cameras. Can not. Manufacturers should be legally prevented from pushing such systems into market, because I believe it is fundamentally impossible to design a system which can be proven to improve, not compromise safety.I would approve systems which use sensor fusion where vision is an assisting factor, but use real distance sensing as well, e.g. ultrasonic or laser time-of-flight / LIDAR.Randomly applying full braking is something where false positives in rates enough that normal people regularly see this and discuss it in coffee tables is completely unacceptable, by orders of magnitude. But it appears car manufacturers and politicians disagree with me.The big issue is false sense of security. A well designed system optimized to give as few false positives as possible could increase safety, even if it only detected say 80% of real obstacles, but then if you are going to tell people about this feature, itisgoing to affect driving patterns, so to compensate, true positive rate must be higher than say 80%, and with cheap-assed and poorly designed sensor technology, that increase comes with the cost of increase in false positives, too.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2023, 04:32:08 pm
content: Quote from: Siwastaja on October 07, 2023, 04:12:46 pmMachines screw up. Humans screw up. Current stats from the insurance industry seem to show a similar car with and without collision avoidance has about a 20% lower accident rate with the avoidance system. The snag is when they do crash the repairs a lot more expensive, as the sensors usually need to be replaced. So, the insurance rates for cars with collision avoidance are going up.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2023, 04:34:43 pm
content: Unfortunately, it has been noted already that the implementation of, for example, anti-lock brakes (a good technology) resulted in more risky driving behavior.A term applied to this is "homeostasis of risk": i.e., individuals tend to act in a manner that they perceive has a fixed amount of risk, rather than maintain previous behavior resulting in lower risk with the new technology.https://tc.canada.ca/en/aviation/publications/aviation-safety-letter/issue-2-2020/risk-homeostasis-reducing-risk-does-not-necessarily-reduce-accidents(That article is specific to aviation, but has citations about driving.)

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2023, 04:42:00 pm
content: Quote from: TimFox on October 07, 2023, 04:34:43 pmI saw a documentary where they followed A&E (ER in the US) statistics over several decades, looking at the ups and downs of traffic accident injuries as various things changed. Seat belt laws dropped the injury rate, then it climbed back up. Each time injuries were suppressed by some change, they climbed back to the previous level within a year or two. The puzzle is what makes them always return to a similar level? People aren't tracking the details of what happens, yet somehow as a group arrive back at the old injury rate.

author: factory
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2023, 06:24:40 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on October 02, 2023, 01:50:18 pmTop speed 3.5km/h(or 3.5mph, Agros can't decide), needs a few extra batteries, photonicinduction style.David

author: switchabl
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2023, 07:02:44 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on October 07, 2023, 04:42:00 pmPart of that may just be increase in traffic/distance travelled overall? Unless that is already accounted for.In Germany, I am not sure that this is true at all (the 1990-91 jump is because earlier years do not include East Germany):https://www.destatis.de/EN/Themes/Society-Environment/Traffic-Accidents/_Graphic/_Interactive/traffic-accidents-persons-killed-year.html?nn=24088I'll admit that it is a bit difficult to judge the impact of single measures versus the overall downward trend (safer cars? better healthcare?).

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2023, 07:14:08 pm
content: Quote from: switchabl on October 07, 2023, 07:02:44 pmYou always have to include the distance travelled in these kind of stats so you can say accidents per km travelled to draw any meaningfull conclusion.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2023, 07:23:04 pm
content: Quote from: switchabl on October 07, 2023, 07:02:44 pmIn the US, traffic fatalities increased while miles driven decreased during the Covid shutdowns.https://www.gao.gov/blog/during-covid-19-road-fatalities-increased-and-transit-ridership-dippedAn excerpt from that report: "Why might this be happening? It’s not clear yet why there have been more fatalities on the road over the past two years. According to preliminary research by NHTSA, people who continued to drive during the pandemic may have engaged in riskier behavior including speeding, failure to wear seat belts, and driving under the influence of alcohol or other drugs."Another possibility is that the highways and streets were emptier, and individual drivers interpreted that as license to speed.Most reports indicate that although accidents decreased, the increased speed involved increased the number of fatalities.Another theory is that "vaccine-hesitant" drivers were disproportionately involved in fatal crashes.https://www.amjmed.com/article/S0002-9343(22)00822-1/fulltextI remember that shortly after the shutdown in Illinois, there was a spectacular crash in Chicago during icy conditions in April of 2020, involving 50 vehicles, probably exacerbated by "empty" roadway.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2023, 08:30:53 pm
content: Quote from: Siwastaja on October 07, 2023, 04:12:46 pmWhat's the peak and mean LIDAR output power? How does that compare to eye-safe limits/The latter must include considering failure modes, e.g. an equivalent to the "car wouldn't slow down" with the error log showing thousands of errors.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2023, 09:08:12 pm
content: Just on the way back from London my ID.3 perceived "something" (I've no idea what) on the M25 as a 100 mph speed limit sign and set the ACC to 100 mph. I would have thought the software would be smart enough to know the maximum legal limits for certain countries...I am tempted to attach an OBD11 and code out a lot of these "safety" functions, they're not ready for prime time. The worst one is lane centering on badly marked rural roads, it likes to ditchfind, so you have to be quite firm with the steering wheel to override it.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2023, 12:08:10 am
content: Quote from: tom66 on October 07, 2023, 09:08:12 pmA few months ago driving north on the M! there was a long section of roadworks limited to 50MPH, with many 50 limit signs. Every one my car passed read as 60. They were all clean and clearly printed. The car is normally pretty reliable reading those numbers. The weather was good, and there were no strong reflections which might have affected it. Heaven knows what gets into these systems. Most cars use a mix of limit signs and mapping for their dashboard display of the speed limit. My car shows a faint queued up next limit as I approach a new section of road, based only on mapping (it often comes up before the sign is visible). The actual sign reading seems to be mostly for extra limiting in bad weather or due to road works. Its strange that your car would go above the normal limit, as I assume it will also have that overall mapping.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2023, 01:30:53 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on October 07, 2023, 09:08:12 pmVolkswagen... what do you expect? A couple of years ago I rented a Peugeot which also had automatic speed limit reading. It failed pretty bad while driving in France. Go figure.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2023, 02:51:22 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on October 11, 2023, 01:30:53 pmWell, I'm sure the camera system is made by Mobileye or something, VW just integrate it.I've got a Vauxhall Mokka loaner from Enterprise (no, it wasn't my choice) whilst they repair the bumper on my car - it seems to misread most of the variable speed limit signs around here too. It also assumes that after 1-2 miles of not seeing any other road sign that it should hide the speed limit in case it has changed, but this isn't very useful as many roads have only occasional repeaters.It's one of those features that sounds good on paper but the reality is it kinda sucks and it needs more work.

author: Veteran68
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2023, 07:06:02 pm
content: Well interestingly enough, the speed limit reader on my Audi works very reliably. Surprisingly so. Sometimes it can even determine dynamic zones with different speed limits based on time of day and flashing or not flashing lights (like schools zones). That part is really hit or miss, but for static signs it rarely if ever gets it wrong.

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2023, 05:34:37 am
content: Quote from: tggzzz on October 07, 2023, 08:30:53 pmI don't know exactly in numbers, but what I do know is that industrial LIDARs that have been approved to use in the middle of people (e.g. workers in factory) and where direct eye contact just centimeters apart does no harm, have been demonstrated in use in automotive conditions (e.g., rain) and work fine, too, to distances of at least 100 meters. The problem is mostly in price (and all those nasty engineering details like keeping the sensor glass clean, but apparently they somehow manage to do that with cameras, too.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2023, 09:49:25 am
content: Quote from: Siwastaja on October 12, 2023, 05:34:37 amI presume the required power is the same as for RADAR, i.e P=range4See p16 ofhttps://www.ll.mit.edu/sites/default/files/outreach/doc/2018-07/lecture%202.pdfThus if, say, 1mW is sufficient for 1m then 10W is required for 10m and 100kW for 100m. Ouch.But that's peak power. In slowly changing environments the environment won't need to be "sampled" often, so the mean power could be much lower. But streets are fast-changing, so the mean power would be higher.Overall, "numbers, not adjectives" are necessary

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2023, 10:31:56 am
content: Quote from: tggzzz on October 12, 2023, 09:49:25 amOn the other hand, you can observe the fact that an apple falls from a tree towards the planet, and an airplane takes off and flies, without knowing the value for g, or how the wing aerodynamics are calculated. I have made a similar observation about LIDARs. They exist in full-autonomous car prototypes I have personally seen demonstrated, using the exact same LIDARs sold for industrial environments approved working close to humans, and I have personally seen these LIDARs map obstacles in automotive environment. Thus, I don't need to know what the exact power is, and how eye safety is exactly proven; this would require deep dive into the relevant legislation and look at the LIDAR manufacturer's (e.g. SICK).In the end, devil is in details and I don't exactly know how well modern state-of-the-art LIDARs perform in presence of thick rain/snow, but my educated guess is, they do work, unlike cameras. One distinctive feature of a modern LIDAR is, for given direction, it can represent multiple echoes (distances).

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2023, 10:50:16 am
content: Quote from: Siwastaja on October 12, 2023, 10:31:56 amPoints taken, but how wings work is an exceptionally bad example: most explanations - especially in school textbooks - are simply wrong!I think you'll find there are cases where LIDAR is better than cameras, and vice versa. "Sensor fusion" has long been an interesting and important topic.W.r.t. multiple echoes/distances, that introduces ambiguities as well as resolves (ho ho) them.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2023, 12:05:32 pm
content: What I don't fully appreciate with LIDAR is, when a substantial number of cars are running LIDAR, will there not be an issue with interference between similar LIDARs using similar wavelengths? I presume there is some kind of CDMA or similar on the light pattern, but still could imagine eventually the additional light will reduce the sensitivity too much as it becomes difficult to separate 'your' code from 'their' code. But maybe this limit isn't reached in practice.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2023, 12:14:37 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on October 12, 2023, 12:05:32 pmLIDAR is highly directional, so the conflicts are probably not that big an issue. What happens as more and more cars have ultrasonic and radar sensors, with quite broad beams? The ultrasonic stuff is only going to mess things up at low speed for other cars close in, but radar cruise control illuminates quite a lot of cars on a busy highway.

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2023, 05:13:02 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on October 12, 2023, 10:50:16 amSpot on. I don't believe in the ability of doing reliable obstacle detection and emergency braking without combining at least two very different types of data source, vision and some sort of distance measurement (stereo vision does not count); human-like vision plus a "superhuman" one. It's sad to see how tech companies see all the buzz in trying to replicate very complex human systems like gigapixel vision and gazillion-neuron NNs, when they could assist these worse-than-human replicas with some superhuman skills like ultrasonic, radar, LIDAR, etc., pretty easily!

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2023, 05:53:33 pm
content: Quote from: Siwastaja on October 12, 2023, 05:13:02 pmThrowing more sensors at a problem is not a solution in itself. The key problem to solve is to determine when the sensor data is correct and when not. That will take most of the computational power.For example: In the early 2000's I worked at a research institute where one of my ongoing projects involved an instrumented car which was used for research into how people drive a car. This had a lidar for measuring distance between the car in front and a scanning sensor to measure the distance to the line on the side of the road. When I first started people had to sort through the data manually to get rid of pieces of data that where invalid. That was a lot of work so I automated it through software. One of the problems with the Lidar was that it would pick up trees or signs when driving through corners so I set a limit on the valid distance based on speed / steer rotation. The line detector was also good at detecting puddles with water. So I created an algorithm that looked for a line that was a) wide enough and b) followed the general distance between the car and the line. A car won't jump 25cm left/right in less than 0.1 seconds.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2023, 06:00:31 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on October 12, 2023, 05:53:33 pmWhy do you think that? Do you have an reference models to base that on? Everything I've ever seen where results of sensing are solid and reliable use some form of sensor fusion specifically to resolve which data is correct. Biological systems do this to an extreme. Our own senses are very easy to fool in isolation, while the fused set works quite well, Most illusions are based on the senses not being able to fuse as they would otherwise do. There is hardly anything we get consistently right with just one sense. Good solid science and engineering work almost always relies on looking at things in multiple ways to resolve ambiguities.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2023, 06:27:56 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on October 12, 2023, 06:00:31 pmThat is exactly what I wrote...

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2023, 06:37:21 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on October 11, 2023, 01:30:53 pmPeople reported this driving a Lexus.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2023, 07:17:28 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on October 12, 2023, 06:27:56 pmIt seems to be the opposite of what you wrote. You seemed to be emphasising that well thought out algorithms can do wonders without adding more sensors. The problem is this only goes so far. Our brain is using lots of the kind of heuristic algorithms you described, and it fails a lot. The flexibility needed to deal with a complex and unpredictable world needs multiple sources of information to resolve things.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2023, 10:55:42 am
content: Quote from: tom66 on October 12, 2023, 12:05:32 pmAIUI the duty cycle (in a particular direction) is very low - you want high peak power for optimum detectability, so this probably gives a reasonable head start in interference rejection. On top of that you can apply a lot of "reality checks" based on frame-to-frame changes based on likely velocities of real-world objects

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2023, 09:49:53 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on October 12, 2023, 05:53:33 pmExactly. And different types of sensors, with different strengths and weaknesses, enables reliable sensor fusion. Algorithms are still not simple, but at least it's possible. I have zero trust on camera-only neural network stuff for anything serious like safety-critical obstacle avoidance. Adding a LIDAR does not magically make it happen, but it makes itpossible. Computation is still a big risk item though.