Do old pipes really have lead in them? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Analog Kid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2025, 07:07:23 pm
content: Topic inspired by this being brought up in another thread here, the one about tariffs.Disclaimer: I haven't done extensive research on this before posting, and furthermore I don't intend to.I'm not a public-health official or anything remotely like it. Just a guy who's curious about something.I have done some plumbing work, including completely replumbing a house I owned, so I know something about the subject.First of all, my overall take on this, based on what I know (which I admit is not all-inclusive):Some residential plumbing that uses soldered copper pipe installed before the mid-1980s (in the US, anyhow)maybe soldered with solder containing lead. While this obviously poses some risk of contamination, it seems to me that it would be minimal, as the only place where the water would be exposed to lead would be on the inside of joints; the majority of the solder is going to be on the outside. (However, lead poisoning is a bad thing, so this should be avoided.)What I take exception to is the idea, apparently widely believed out there, that some houses containlead pipes. Meaning pipes made out of lead.So far as I know, this was true when the Romans were plumbing their cities (hence the word "plumbing" itself, fromplumbum, lead). But it hasn't been true since then for a very long time. So no, we don't pipe water through lead pipes any more.When I was re-plumbing my house I did run across one joint that was filled with actual lead; it was a large waste pipe connection that had had oakum (basically jute) inserted, then filled with molten lead to seal the joint. This was commonly done with cast-iron pipe back in the day, but so far as I know is no longer practiced. And it was a waste pipe, not a supply line.So I am very sympathetic to those folks, like the unfortunate souls in Flint, Michigan, who were exposed to very high levels of lead because of incompetence and negligence on the part of those who administered their water systems. But I think this is a somewhat anomalous case, an outlier. But I don't know for sure.Anyone know for sure what the actual hazards are of lead contamination in modren plumbing systems? including any "legacy" plumbing still existing in older buildngs?

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2025, 07:15:23 pm
content: Lead isn't common inside the house, but a lead supply up to the house was very common in the US, just as it was in Europe, installed right up until probably around the middle of last century - apparently, only banned in the 1980s in the US. Many still remain, as they're extremely well buried and costly to replace. Some of them may already be partially replaced at both ends, making it hard to identify them.The EPA, for example, believes around 9 million may still remain in service from water providers:https://www.epa.gov/ground-water-and-drinking-water/lead-service-linesHow many remain which belong to the property rather than the supplier, I have no idea. I doubt anyone does.Wouldn't this be tube, though? Lead's really soft..

author: edpalmer42
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2025, 07:17:15 pm
content: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead_service_line

author: Analog Kid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2025, 07:22:15 pm
content: Yikes. Problem is worse than I thought.

author: shapirus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2025, 08:02:09 pm
content: The very word "plumbing" is quite suggestive in that regard.

author: Analog Kid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2025, 08:03:55 pm
content: Quote from: shapirus on August 09, 2025, 08:02:09 pmMaybe we should change it to "cupring".(Not "polyvinyling"!)

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 09, 2025, 08:10:40 pm
content: Lead pipes may be harmless depending on chemicals contained in water. For example, infamous Flint water crisis happened because city switched water source and previously essentially harmless pipes started releasing lead into the tap water.

author: ejeffrey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2025, 08:19:09 pm
content: Lead is/was also present in brass fittings. I think most brass fittings sold in the US are now at least very low lead, but that change was very recent.Lead from solder and brass fittings is much less of a problem than lead service lines. The actual rate of leaching depends on the water chemistry and the total amount of lead containing alloys exposed -- not to mention how beat and careful the plumber was. Water supplies are treated to be a slightly basic pH to reduce lead leeching.

author: langwadt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2025, 08:27:29 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on August 09, 2025, 08:10:40 pmafaiu they not only switched water source but also decided to save money by not doing the water treatment that is normally done to would to reduce the leaching

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2025, 08:40:36 pm
content: This puts me in mind of the Woody Allen film 'Sleeper'https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sleeper_(1973_film)Where he is cryogenically frozen and wakes up in a dystopian future where smoking and (I think) red meat have been found to have really health giving properties. I can visualize a scene where they extol the health benefits of Lead piping over early 21st Century plastic piping!That film has some classic moments in it if you haven't seen it. Eg. the freshly awoken Allen sitting drooling in a motorized wheelchair repeatedly running over the toes of a circle of doctors, deep in consultation while frantically trying to avoid him.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2025, 08:57:16 pm
content: Quote from: Analog Kid on August 09, 2025, 07:07:23 pmAs is frequently the case, you are completely wrong. Shapirus was right: "plumbing" is a Big Hint.All the houses in my road will have plumbing like that. The houses aren't that old, being just less than a century. There are many many older houses around here, and they won't have copper pipes.Here's a picture under my kitchen sink.A fat lead pipe from the road exits the wall top left behind the corrugate grey pipe, and descends.It is joined to a more modern 15mm copper pipe, there's a stopcock, and it proceeds up to the kitchen sink tap behind the white waste pipe.That's how my drinking water is supplied.There are other lead pipes in the mains cold water supply., e.g. leading to the bathroom sink and bath.I had it tested 35 years ago. The Pb content was 49/l when the limit was 50µg/l. The limit has since been lowered to 10µg/l.I have two options: expensive and disruptive replacement of the lead pipes, or run the water before drinking it. Since water is free, I choose the latter.

author: Analog Kid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2025, 09:01:01 pm
content: OK, I admit I was wrong. Happy?

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2025, 09:38:50 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on August 09, 2025, 07:15:23 pmLater around herehttps://www.bristolwater.co.uk/lead-pipe-replacementindicates "There are a large number of properties in our water supply area, builtbefore the 1970s, that have a lead pipe supply from the water main and into the home."

author: Stray Electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2025, 09:47:58 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on August 09, 2025, 08:57:16 pmWhen was your neighborhood first laid out and those pipes installed?I have never seen lead pipes in a house in the US. Some of the old houses in some of the OLD cities might have them but in most parts of the US that I've been in, people didn't have indoor plumbing before the 1920s or 1930s and all of the houses in the 1930s and up into the 1960s or 1970s had iron or steel pipes. After that they went to copper and then PVC and now to PexCrap. One of my grandfathers died in 1959 and my grandmother used some of his life insurance money to add some basic indoor plumbing to their house which was built in 1934. Before that they were still using a hand drawn well and an outhouse. Oh and she added an electric pump placed in the well. The same thing happened with my GGF's house (different family). He was a circuit riding minister and quite well off but their large, quite nice house was built in the 1880s and didn't have indoor plumbing until someone added it in the late 1960s or early 1970s.My current house was built in 1979 and used (pre-chinese made) copper pipes and I've never had a moments trouble with any of them. It was one of the reasons that I bought this house.IMO, unless you live in an OLD house in an OLD neighborhood in an OLD city in the US I don't think that you really need to worry about lead pipes.When I visited Ft Leavenworth, Kansas some years ago I learned that much of the main underground water distribution system was still using wooden pipes that were installed in the 1800s!And regarding brass containing lead, "free machining brass" does contain some small amount of lead but I don't think that the cast brass (made in the US) such as that used in plumbing fixtures contains any measurable amount of lead.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2025, 10:09:27 pm
content: Yes, leaded solder is a problem, but not so much as the pipes.Although I prefer lead solder for electronics, I would never use it for anything carrying water or jeweller, which can come into contact with the skin.I've recently repaired my father's pump spray. One of the nephews broke the copper pipe, so I decided to solder it back together. Using unleaded solder made it more difficult and dangerous to do, as it required more heat, but there was no way I was going to take the risk. He fills it with rain water which is slightly acidic and might also put vinegar in it, for killing bugs, which would increase the risk of the lead leaching out an contaminating the soil, or people, if the kids squirt them with it.

author: Analog Kid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2025, 10:13:06 pm
content: Quote from: Zero999 on August 09, 2025, 10:09:27 pmTotally agree.Regarding situations where you don't want lead, that's why [insert name of deity here] created silver solder.I've used it quite a bit, and it's not that much harder to use than the leaded stuff.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2025, 10:25:14 pm
content: Quote from: Analog Kid on August 09, 2025, 09:01:01 pmIt was probably my fault, since I mistakenly said so, in the other thread. I don't know why I said that, since I knew full well that it's the pipes in the streets which often contain lead, not inside houses.https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/tariffs/msg6006117/#msg6006117Quote from: Analog Kid on August 09, 2025, 10:13:06 pmI've never used silver solder. I used generic lead free solder, probably tin and copper, which is actually more hazardous to use, because it requires higher temperatures to melt and stronger flux. Lead isn't an issue when soldering, because it doesn't get hot enough to evaporate, but it's obviously bad to use it on water pipes.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2025, 10:31:24 pm
content: Quotewere in the uk do ya live as im moving there. In this part of the country were paying £2.47 per m3 for water and another £1.54 per m3 to take it away,happily put up with a bit of lead if im gonna be saving a few hundred quid a year

author: Analog Kid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2025, 10:41:36 pm
content: Quote from: themadhippy on August 09, 2025, 10:31:24 pmThere's a place in the United States where the water is free. (At least it was when I lived there in the 1990s.)It's literally in the middle of the desert.I'm talking about Bishop, California, which happens to be in the Owens Valley (not far from Death Valley and Mono Lake, which is where the city of Los Angeles steals their water from).Yes, steals: when the LA aqueduct system was built in the 1930s, there was literally a water war between the LA predators and the Owens Valley folks, including shit being blown up with dynamite. See the movie "Chinatown", which tells part of that story.Anyhow, LA won, the aqueduct got built, and as a sop to the residents of that small town, the LADWP (Los Angeles Dep't. of Water and Power) granted the people of Bishop free water. Some sections of town even have little canals with running water bordering the lots. Totally crazy.At least the fight over Mono Lake finally ended with the defeat of the LA bastards, but that's another story for another day ...

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2025, 10:53:59 pm
content: Quote from: Analog Kid on August 09, 2025, 10:13:06 pmSome "Silver Solder" contains Cadmium & carries a "not suitable for plumbing" label.

author: Dougmc
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2025, 02:27:29 am
content: I actually have a 2" lead pipe. I assume it was used in the drain.House was built early 1900s. It's not in service .it's thick.bends somewhat easyNo threads or connector on the ends

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2025, 02:58:02 am
content: Read some late 19th/early 20th century plumbing books and you'll see plenty of historical information about the use of lead pipes. Note that although the dangers of lead toxicity were known at the time, it was not considered a problem because the pipes naturally formed a passivation layer of other minerals when exposed to the appropriate type of water.

author: wilfred
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2025, 03:34:49 am
content: Quote from: Analog Kid on August 09, 2025, 07:07:23 pmIf you remove a topic from the tariff thread how will future anthropologists studying debate on the internet know accurately how internet debates evolve. Godwin's law doesn't hold there yet as far as I know. I have been thinking does it meander in a way analogous to the way I used to doodle ant-trails on a page. will all topics eventually become included as a page will eventually become covered by squiggly lines?A major concern about lead is if it enters the blood it can lead to developmental and learning problems in young children. Not good for adults but a lesser concern than with children. It is nigh on 40 years since unleaded petrol was introduced in Australia and even longer since it was removed from housepaints. For similar reasons.

author: Analog Kid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2025, 03:39:23 am
content: Quote from: wilfred on August 10, 2025, 03:34:49 amYepper.And let's don't forget that lead is bioaccumulative, meaning once it's in the body it stays there.Apparently some amount can be removed by chelation, but it's not a cure.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2025, 04:45:11 am
content: Quote from: Stray Electron on August 09, 2025, 09:47:58 pm1930

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2025, 04:49:05 am
content: Quote from: themadhippy on August 09, 2025, 10:31:24 pmIn Wales, everywhere.In the England you aren't required to have a water meter installed, and I haven't. The water companies will tend to install them at the slightest provocation, however.There is a separate annual charge for beingconnectedto the mains water supply

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2025, 04:55:39 am
content: Quote from: tggzzz on August 10, 2025, 04:49:05 amThat's not free, it's just a fixed rate for access. Metering is rather fairer as people pay for what they actually use. Also, it's a very convenient place to check for leaks.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2025, 05:01:18 am
content: Quote from: Monkeh on August 10, 2025, 04:55:39 amEdits missed in the aether! Oh well.It is an annualconnectioncharge, not a water charge.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2025, 05:06:37 am
content: Quote from: tggzzz on August 10, 2025, 05:01:18 amAnd that charge is, of course, set to accomodate the amount of water the house is expected to consume..I suppose it's free in the sense the NHS is free, anyway. You might find you could pay less - and, of course, some households should probably be paying a lot more.

author: amwales
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2025, 08:06:09 am
content: My home in Wales (UK) had lead water pipes, I was born in 71 and the terraced house was pretty old. After they were ripped out I used to play with them in the garden, bashing them with a hammer.

author: paulca
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2025, 08:16:59 am
content: Quote from: Monkeh on August 10, 2025, 05:06:37 amPaying for it in England didn't seem to help the quality or quantity sadly. I think the counties water systems just got 30 years old and all the money went into pockets.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2025, 11:51:46 am
content: QuoteTook em over 3 years from my initial request to finally get a meter fitted,although the £20 compensation every time they failed to reply to emails and letters was nice. Since fitting my bill is a about a third of what is was on unmetered

author: John Coloccia
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2025, 12:55:53 pm
content: I ran into Colonel Mustard in the study. The chap was a bit agitated when I asked him, but he seemed very sure that lead pipes do, indeed, exist.It seems funny because we're used to lead in solder form, but they were used because they're way more durable than iron based pipes, in part because they're flexible. But they really are mostly safe. Lead doesn't just jump into the water. Get the wrong chemicals in there, though, and you have a problem.

author: Wallace Gasiewicz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2025, 01:30:51 pm
content: As a child I worked with my father in plumbing / heating business. We mostly installed furnaces but did do plumbing especially to the humidifiers in the furnace. We mostly did retrofits in Detroit, in houses built in the 1920s. I do not recall any lead pipes in these houses with the exception of the main supply line to the meter. The house pipes were almost all galvanized steel pipe. These corrode badly over the years. Some supply lines were lead others were copper pipe. you would have to scrape the pipe with a knife to tell the difference after years of corrosion and possibly paint. I think everyone knows that in house pipes that were copper were soldered with lead, then lead solder was not allowed. However there still was lead in the actual spigots long after it was not allowed in pipes. Now almost all plumbing is plastic. Another possible concern. I think it is correct to assume that any older city water system has lead pipes in many places in the system. It does not leach out if the pH of the water is correct. The Flint water system debacle was quite idiotic and caused by bad decisions made by politicians, not water engineers. I am familiar with the Flint river and only an idiot would use that water if other sources were available,The Detroit water system is probably the only thing left from the city formerly known as Detroit. It was rebuilt in the 60's and 70's to use water from Lake Huron far north of the actual city and now supplies several counties in the Detroit area with good water. It is a big source of revenue. However the old water sources on the Detroit River also used. Flint opted to restart their old water system rather than continue buying water from Detroit. In Michigan it is easy to get your water analyzed by the State. You can get both elemental (lead) and bacteria analysis. Michigan State U. works closely with the state in regard to water purity.

author: John Coloccia
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2025, 01:35:28 pm
content: Quote from: Wallace Gasiewicz on August 10, 2025, 01:30:51 pmI don't know that they were ever used in homes to any great extent. Their main advantage is that you could bury them and never touch them again. Their chemistry and flexibility made it so they basically last forever.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2025, 04:56:49 pm
content: Quote from: John Coloccia on August 10, 2025, 12:55:53 pmI had my water tested 35 years ago. After being in the pipe between the road and the tap overnight, the Pb content was 49/l when the limit was 50µg/l. The limit has since been lowered to 10µg/l.After running the water for 5 mins, to ensure my lead pipe had been flushed out, the reading was not recorded which presumably meant is was significantly below the 10µg/l limit.As for whether there are any chemicals, I refer you to the declared composition for the water in my area...

author: ejeffrey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2025, 07:27:47 pm
content: Quote from: Stray Electron on August 09, 2025, 09:47:58 pmYou may never have seen them but that doesn't meant they don't exist. Plenty of homes and apartment buildings were built using lead pipes in the post-war period. It's just that lead service pipes are much more common. And even in places that had lead pipes, it's common that the the indoor plumbing will have been replaced during maintenance or renovation in the past half century. Replacing the buried service lines takes much longer.QuoteLead service lines were common up through the 60s and in a few places longer than that. By far the worst is Chicago where 100% of service lines installed before 1986 were lead, but many other cities used lead service lines as well.QuoteNot true. Until recently brass plumbing fittings were allowed to, and often did contain up to 8% lead.

author: ejeffrey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2025, 07:34:26 pm
content: Quote from: John Coloccia on August 10, 2025, 12:55:53 pmThat's backwards. Places with lead pipes specifically add phosphates to the water in order to create a passivation layer. Without that, lead absolutely does just jump into the water. pH also makes a big difference, with a basic pH reducing leeching rates.

author: John Coloccia
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2025, 10:19:05 pm
content: Quote from: ejeffrey on August 10, 2025, 07:34:26 pmYou're right. Allow me to correct myself and say that they're mostly safe in the application they're used in, historically.

author: rogerggbr
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 11, 2025, 07:20:14 am
content: Our house was built around 1760 (UK), the piped water supply added much later. A lead pipe from the road feeds the house, as per many others commenting above. When we bought it in 1987 it was a condition of the mortgage/insurers that we replaced all the internal lead piping with copper, basically re-piped the whole place (amongst other major costs). I spoke to the insurers and said it was nice of them to be thinking of our health. They replied that it is nothing to do with health, just that lead pipes have a far greater tendancy to freeze and burst, it is all about money and risk. The pipes in the ground pose no such risk so are still there. I have also been told that the lead pipes "furr up" so very little lead is released from old pipes that are not disturbed.

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 11, 2025, 07:24:58 am
content: Quote from: rogerggbr on August 11, 2025, 07:20:14 amAny explanation on this? I would think the freeze/burst risk would be exactly the same with lead and copper pipe. The only way to deal with this is keeping piping in heated indoor areas, and insulating and adding heating cable (self-regulating PTC type - very affordable) to any pipework that has to outside the heated envelope of the house (and does so above the ground level; from basement directly to deep underground is of course OK).

author: paul cotter
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 11, 2025, 12:01:49 pm
content: I live in Ireland and my parent's house was built ~1942/43. All the original pipes were lead, some have been replaced but I don't remember any works to change the incomer and I would be fairly certain it is still lead. In addition to the lead pipes, all the wiring was cotton covered steel/iron wire- dreadful stuff that rusted and crumbled.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 11, 2025, 12:49:32 pm
content: Quote from: paul cotter on August 11, 2025, 12:01:49 pmMy parents houses have had- rubber-covered insulation (perished, unused),- lead sheathed two core (unused). The lead was PME ground (an unusual definition of "protective"), don't even think about how joints were made!- single cores laid in E-cross section wood (unused!)

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 11, 2025, 12:53:19 pm
content: Does anyone have experience with the various Lead pipe lining systems, where the pipe is cleaned / descaled, internally coated with epoxy and cured in situ? Eg.https://www.piperestorationservices.co.uk/innovative-technology/(no connection, and there are several others out there).My son's house (mid '50s) has a Lead supply pipe and replacing it would be troublesome. The local water authority, like most of the others, has a free offer to replace existing Lead supply pipes but when you read the detail, it only covers the length from the street main to the stop tap at the property boundary (which they are responsible for anyway).

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 11, 2025, 01:19:57 pm
content: QuoteThe original mini trunking

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 11, 2025, 01:47:45 pm
content: Quote from: themadhippy on August 11, 2025, 01:19:57 pmFor some definition of "mini"