Bought a vintage record player in Italy and want to use it in the US - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / beginners

author: Oscar14
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: November 20, 2023, 04:13:11 pm
content: I bought this very unique record player in Italy that was made in the 1960's. It's currently being shipped to me. I really would love to use it in the US. I asked a local electronics repair place in South Florida if they could help me since I knew the voltage was different and had heard that the frequency would be 50 rather than 60 and their response was:"Vintage record players, earlier than mid-1970s, have the transformer integrated in the motor. It was designed for the speed and, in this unit, the European 50 hertz. There is no way to modified it. Unfortunately we are no able to assist your request. We suggest getting a step-down transformer to see if it works."Can I assume their response is correct? If so can someone recommend a step-down transformer to use?

author: Andy Chee
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 20, 2023, 04:28:02 pm
content: A regular step-up transformer only changes 110V(US) to 220V(Italy), it does not change frequency.For a vintage turntable, the motor is likely a synchronous motor, thus a 50Hz motor running from a 60Hz supply will run faster.I would first look at the motor. You may be in luck and it’s a DC motor running from rectified and filtered mains, in which case a transformer will work.Next look at the belt drive mechanism. Maybe the pulley has two speeds, in which case you simply move the drive belt to the other pulley.If it’s a single speed pulley, you may be able to purchase a new one (or 3D print a pulley).If all that fails, a new 60Hz motor might be required.For a brute force solution, you can buy a small car inverter 12V-240V 50Hz, though I think the electrical interference from the inverter could find its way into the audio chain.

author: Le_Bassiste
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 20, 2023, 04:36:18 pm
content: kind of a shot in the dark here, but maybe a 230VAC inverter for car use does the trick.must probably have "true" sinewave (as opposed to "modified sinewave") output though, to avoid motor buzzing / overheating.edit: oops, for the player made in the '60, AC voltage was probably rated to just 220 VAC, so above mentioned inverter might need some "fine tuning" for proper output voltage.

author: shapirus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 20, 2023, 04:55:55 pm
content: Quote from: Le_Bassiste on November 20, 2023, 04:36:18 pmIf it works in Europe today, it means it can handle 230-240V just fine. Besides, there's no way they designed it for precisely 220V without any margin.So the way to go will be: 115VAC --[AC/DC PSU]--> 12VDC --[DC/AC 230V 50Hz "pure sine wave" inverter]--> device.

author: Terry Bites
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 20, 2023, 05:59:04 pm
content: Small synchonous and shaded pole motors arent all that fussy about waveform, square wave drive is ok. You can stick a cap across it to filter out the 3rd harmonic.

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 20, 2023, 06:19:39 pm
content: Different motor pulley options were the standard way for manufacturers to address the mains frequency problem on idler drive and belt drive mains turntables. Somebody local with a lathe, and a bit of maths, is your best bet (in addition to a step-up transformer).

author: jonpaul
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 20, 2023, 07:02:40 pm
content: photo? Cost? Make/model?

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 20, 2023, 07:06:33 pm
content: There are inverters for turntables out there, using a quartz reference oscillator. Some of them give pitch control which can be desirable.Silicon Chip Magazine had a project: "230/115VAC, 50/60Hz Precision Turntable Driver" SC 04104161 May 2016 John Clarkehttps://www.siliconchip.com.au/Issue/2016/May/230-115VAC%2C+50-60Hz+Precision+Turntable+Driver

author: Oscar14
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: November 20, 2023, 07:47:19 pm
content: Quote from: jonpaul on November 20, 2023, 07:02:40 pmThese are a few sites showing the same model I bought so you can see photos/videos but I don't see anywhere I can find specifications.https://www.catawiki.com/en/l/68779559-milani-bidone-l-dual-turntable-italy-1960

author: Oscar14
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: November 20, 2023, 07:49:15 pm
content: Quote from: Gyro on November 20, 2023, 06:19:39 pmThank you (to all who responded). I'm hoping to find someone local in the South Florida area since I'm not capable of modifying anything on the unit except to buy and external transformer or similar. Again if someone has a link to a single purchased device that I can add to fix my issue that would be very helpful to me.

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 20, 2023, 08:43:11 pm
content: Just a quick note - I'm suggesting getting somebody to turn up a replacement pulley rather than modifying the original (even though you need a reduction in diameter), best to keep the original as a pattern. Hopefully the pulley is just held onto the motor shaft by a grub screw. Turning up a replacement should be an easy job for any half decent amateur or small engineering shop.

author: edpalmer42
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 20, 2023, 08:51:01 pm
content: Quote from: Oscar14 on November 20, 2023, 07:49:15 pmThere are a few smart (aka expensive) UPS units that would allow you to set the output voltage and frequency seperate from the input values. Typically these are full on-line units where the output inverter is seperate from the input side and is running continuously. One such unit is the Liebert GXT2. I have two of them, but I've never looked at this feature. Note that this model has been discontinued but is still widely available. There are likely similar units available from Liebert and other vendors.Ed

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 20, 2023, 10:50:08 pm
content: Quote from: Gyro on November 20, 2023, 06:19:39 pmBack in the day, Western Australia, uniquely amongst Australian States, had 40Hz Mains.For most purposes, it didn't much matter, but for record players it did.The "fix" by local suppliers of such devices was to get a bunch of new stepped idler wheels turned up locally.A small premium was charged for this service, & the supplier kept the 50 Hz idler pulleys.When, ultimately, the Mains went to 50Hz, they sold those previously "unusable" 50Hz idlers they had "tucked away" for a small premium to those wishing to continue using their record player."Market forces" don't get much better than that!

author: DimitriP
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 20, 2023, 11:05:47 pm
content: It's best to hold off until you have the actual article in your hands.It all depends on which actual Dual model turntable you receive with it.Plenty of simlar vintage Duals on ebay to "upgrade"I hope you receive it soon so this thread won't go into page 8 speculating and listing all the possible ways to handle 60Hz

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 20, 2023, 11:24:17 pm
content: Quote from: DimitriP on November 20, 2023, 11:05:47 pmGood point, as there may well be "dead" Duals lying around in attics, already fitted with the correct 60Hz idler wheels.The only practical way to "handle 60Hz" is to change the stepped idler pulley.All the other ways introduce other, in many cases more intractable, problems.

author: Jeff eelcr
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 21, 2023, 02:11:27 am
content: I do not know where the Dual name got into this? BUT this does not look like any Dual TT I am use to.Maybe a BSR TT? Sometimes the information was under the chassis.Jeff

author: DimitriP
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 21, 2023, 02:26:50 am
content: Quote from: Jeff eelcr on November 21, 2023, 02:11:27 amit's Schrödinger's tuntable until it arrives and it's unpacked !

author: Jeff eelcr
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 21, 2023, 02:14:07 pm
content: Not according to pictures.Jeff

author: SL4P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 23, 2023, 07:12:38 am
content: What supplies do the electronics require ?

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 23, 2023, 10:43:27 am
content: Quote from: Jeff eelcr on November 21, 2023, 02:11:27 amOn answer 8, the word '"dual" is used in the "write up", but apparently in a descriptive manner, not as a brand name.It does have a plainly marked BSR mat on the turntable.It definitely looks more "BSR style" in appearance.

author: DimitriP
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2023, 09:35:15 pm
content: Quote from: vk6zgo on November 23, 2023, 10:43:27 amThe pic in he link mentions "Dual", my own searches found pics with Dual and BSR, and I'm still not 100% what the OP is going to receive.

author: Doctorandus_P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2023, 11:21:38 am
content: Another option is to use a 60Hz generator, a Class-D audio amplifier and a transformer in reverse to get to a high enough voltage to run the motor. The biggest pitfall with this setup is saturation of the transformer, You can prevent this by using a transformer with a winding that is rated for more then the voltage you need, using two transformers in series, or adding a bunch of extra turns to the high voltage coil of the transformer.

author: Oscar14
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: January 02, 2024, 09:28:26 pm
content: I did finally receive the unit. Unfortunately the cover is cracked (from shipping) but I assume it still works. I can't tell if the motor is dual or not. I'm just not capable like that. I'm trying to find a local electronics/repair/restoration/etc. person in South Florida to help me out. I know several DiY options were mentioned with inverters, etc. If someone can reference actual products to buy I may be forced to go down that path.Thank you all.

author: GLouie
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2024, 12:09:19 am
content: For sure OP will need a mains voltage converter from nominal 120vac (USA) to 220 vac just to run the thing, unless the device has that built-in.The turntable brand is usually visible, printed on top, and usually on a label underneath. Whether he got a Dual (brand) turntable, such as the 1015 pictured, or a BSR brand, my recollection is that both had synchronous motors and either 50 or 60Hz pulleys for the rim drive idler wheel. If so, you just need to change the idler pulley, or at worst, have a machine shop make one once the dimensions are figured out.Here's a 60Hz. pulley for a Dual 1015 on ebay:https://www.ebay.com/itm/133849904554and here's a 50Hz unit:https://www.ebay.com/itm/292885730234I'll wager that BSR pulleys also exist.

author: Infraviolet
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2024, 02:31:19 am
content: A new idler puley could probably be 3d printed rather than machined? The forces involved will probably be pretty small, and record player rotation speeds aren't huge. Printed plastic should probably survive pretty well here?

author: Oscar14
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: January 05, 2024, 11:44:34 pm
content: I've spoken with an audio restoration company and they said that because of cost ($1000's of dollars) they just recommend a digital converter specifically for european record players and we foud this one:https://www.kccscientific.com/I spoke with the company and they said 80% of their users are doing what I'm trying to do. The only thing left is to figure out the watts of the record player. I can't find any sticker on the device. The Italian name for record player is "Giradischi" so googling Giradischi Milani shows similar players but I can't find the specs for the system. The only thing I see is on the italian plug that says "16/250" but I think that's 16A/250V.

author: shapirus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2024, 12:38:00 am
content: Quote from: Oscar14 on January 05, 2024, 11:44:34 pmThis is some insane audiofoolia in one of its purest forms. $1500 for a 500W power converter? "Special AUDIO edition"? Give me a break!All you need is an AC 115V -> DC 12V PSU plus a DC 12V -> AC 230V/50Hz pure sine wave inverter of whatever power rating the device requires. I'd bet it does not consume over 100W. Maybe a little more if it's tube-based. A 500W (and I mean Chinese watts here) inverter and PSU should be more than enough and fit in, I guess, $100-$150 at most, for both, delivered.edit: there is one caveat however. The PSUs and invertors I mentioned are usually fan-cooled. This is important because of the audio application. Many have temperature-driven fan control, you'll need to look for these. It may make sense to get ones with a higher power rating with the idea that they won't turn the fans on at all for light loads (such as the device in question). It's best to find any 220/50 AC source (borrow/ask to use somewhere local?) to measure the device's power consumption before buying any power converters to get an approximate idea of what to look for.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2024, 02:53:59 am
content: Ok, let's back up a bit.When you say "record player" do you mean just the '"deck" or the whole device with amplifier, etc?If just the former, you only need to find a 115v/230v transformer, plus get a 60Hz idler pulley made up.If the transformer has to provide power for the amplifier, it will need to be a tad larger, but if it is only used for the player motor you won't need a lot of power capabilities.If it includes a tube-based amplifier, the amp may include asecondarywinding of around 220v or so.In that case, you could cheat by finding something similar with a 115Vprimary,to replace the existing one,---as a bonus, you may be able to run the player motor off the transformer secondary.If you are using the player deck with an existing amp, all you need is a smaller transformer.PS. Ok, I found the video.In 1965, it is almost certain for the amplifier to be solid state.I would probably "bite the bullet" & buy a 230/115v transformer, then look for a machine shop to make you up a modified pulley.Another possibility could be to check under the player baseplate for a model number & Google.You may be able to pick up a "dead" 115v deck that you can "rat" for the motor & pulley.

author: Andy Chee
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2024, 04:29:09 am
content: Quote from: Oscar14 on January 02, 2024, 09:28:26 pmIf you can take a photo of the bottom of the unit (and top and all around for that matter!), we can tell you which screws (if any) should be removed to gain service access underneath.Once that's done, take a photo of the internals and we can further advise your course of action.

author: Haenk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2024, 08:59:05 am
content: Quote from: Oscar14 on January 05, 2024, 11:44:34 pmThe 16A is the cable/plug spec, no way this thing consumes 3500W, unless it has a built in room heater.With ampflifier & stuff, I would guess around 250W, max.The idea of a 2 car converters is great (110-12-220), that is a bit of a hack. But likely the cheapest option to run the player unmodified (if that is important).

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2024, 09:16:58 am
content: Quote from: Terry Bites on November 20, 2023, 05:59:04 pmUse an inductor, rather than a capacitor. A capacitor across a modified/square wave inverter will draw huge current surges, every time the output transistors switch on, which will put them and the capacitor under considerable stress. An inductor will limit the turn on current spikes and form a low pass filter, which will reduce the harmonics.