It is here: crime tax! - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2022, 01:13:46 pm
content: I just got an email from a bank. It says I have to pay a monthly fee for customer research.Why do I have to pay a bank to research whether I'm happy with them? This must be a crappy translation from someone phishing for information. Let's check the links in the email... they all look legit. Let's read the message more carefully... FFS it really says that I have to pay a monthly fee to compensate the bank for the effort they have to put into checking my account for criminal behaviour.

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2022, 01:25:12 pm
content: Yes got that one too a while back. It's a savings account that used to be free of charge, but it seems the banks are not earning enough, so they are now charging for the protection of your account. Because, so they claim, the cost for protection against cyber crime has gone up.I too was like "what the f..., those mother f...ers, is it not enough that you can use my money to make money and give me nothing in return". But I'm afraid that is the world we live in.My wife read something this morning about a couple that paid for the vacation of some relatives, and after the vacation, the relatives invited them over for drinks and offered them some snacks. Feel free to take them they said. Next day the couple got a "ticky" each for 50 cents for eating the snacks. What is the world coming to.When I invite someone over for drinks or dinner I'm not going to charge them for it. Would be nice when they invite you back, but it is not a score card.Had never heard of a "ticky", don't even know if that is the correct spelling.Edit: Here is a savings tip for the bank. Don't send snail mail twice, when the dual account holders live at the same address. Because the wife and I got the same letter with only the addressee being different

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2022, 02:01:13 pm
content: Quote from: pcprogrammer on August 30, 2022, 01:25:12 pmThey want to have their ass covered in the event that you are in the process of separating and lie and hide things from each other.True story, actually.editI don't think it's very effective if shit gets genuinely ugly, but you can't sue them for not having tried, that's the point.

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2022, 02:08:29 pm
content: Good point. Not an American so "sew the bastards" is not in my mindAnd yes, when things get ugly, the one getting the post out of the letter box could easily hide the letter for the other partnerAnd then it is the banks word against yours. Guess who wins.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2022, 04:57:56 pm
content: QuoteYes, ridiculous. They should have just said it's a fee for maintaining your account or something like that.I've never had to ask a bank to compensate me but I read of people caught up in scams who do. There is the well-known scam where the scammer calls to say they are the bank and there is something wrong, and just to prove they are not a scammer the target is told to hang up and call the bank's published phone number. Of course, when they make that call they reconnect to the scammer and from there on it's very expensive. Absolutely not a bank fault, yet banks are expected to cover that kind of loss.Someonehas to pay for all those compensation claims. Presumably it's previously come out of the bank's profits from other operations, which would include fees on accounts. Maybe the banks have now got to the point where they can't afford to cover such losses, and previously free accounts now need to be paying a fee. If so, their mistake might be that they are up-front about the reason for the fee.

author: jpanhalt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2022, 05:32:20 pm
content: Must be an EU thing (no politic implied). I don't think such a thing in the US would get to first base, much less fly for long. My current bank monitors for suspicious activity, gives alerts when they occur (so far none), and gives monthly confirmations of "no suspicious activity" all for free.Many banks in the US waive various charges based on balance and/or age. For example, since older people write fewer checks, if you are over 60 or have a certain balance and are younger all checks are free.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2022, 05:44:59 pm
content: Quote from: jpanhalt on August 30, 2022, 05:32:20 pmAll of this so they can refuse to do anything when a defective vending machine charges you $65k for a bouquet of flowers. Yes, that happened.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2022, 05:55:40 pm
content: I am gobsmacked. Flowers from a vending machine?!?

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2022, 05:57:17 pm
content: Quote from: dunkemhigh on August 30, 2022, 05:55:40 pmRight? Welcome to America.

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2022, 06:48:40 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on August 30, 2022, 05:44:59 pmMost have been Dutch flowers and you got charged extra for the shippingWould have been quite the shock to see that on your bank statement I can imagine. Try explaining that to the wife

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2022, 06:51:54 pm
content: I have been charged double for petrol once over here in France. Was also a bit of a hassle to get it refunded, but it was payed back, but that was not a criminal act, so no money lost for the bank.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2022, 08:31:31 pm
content: Move to a different bank? NL central bank interest rate is 1.47% so you're saving the bank most of that by giving them your money. It's only right they provide all the other services FOC in return.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2022, 08:33:44 pm
content: Ah hah hah hahhh

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2022, 09:07:08 pm
content: Speaking of American banks...I left behind an account with some two digit sum on it.A few years later they mail me that the account is about to be considered abandoned and the funds forfeited to the state government.Too much effort to get the money out of there (cards are long dead, the password is the card number, the nearest branch office is in another country).A few months later my account receives a free upgrade to a different plan. A small monthly fee may be charged unless XYZ conditions are met.A year later, the account is drained dry and I never hear from them anymore.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2022, 09:15:02 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on August 30, 2022, 01:13:46 pmLikely to do with your Gubbermint laws on money laundering.We need pay these costs too in both time and money, albeit the monetary costs are hidden in various bank and money institution charges.The time component is a one on one phone survey we must undertake with our FOREX provider every 2 years which we get an email warning that is to take place soon.They need to ensure you are not using them for laundering the proceeds of illicit dealings and thereby making them an accessory.Right PITA it is and a sign of the times we live in.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2022, 09:17:27 pm
content: Quote from: magic on August 30, 2022, 09:07:08 pmSo much for the funds forfeited to the state! The bank wasn't gonna say goodbye to your 50 bucks!

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2022, 09:25:18 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on August 30, 2022, 09:15:02 pmOh, I'm sure people actually laundering money are completely terrified by those very tough measures!Meanwhile there are tons of modest people getting buggered by their bank because they received a transfer from their grandpa and now they need to justify the entirety of their sources of income for the past two years with tangible evidence, otherwise they'll get their account blocked.If you think that's sci-fi, not even so!

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2022, 09:29:45 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on August 30, 2022, 09:25:18 pmMaybe you missed absolving themselves of being a party to money laundering is behind this.Highlighted for your reference.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2022, 09:47:09 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on August 30, 2022, 09:25:18 pmThere are some banks here that are demonstrating significant obtusity in their implementation of anti-money-laundering protocols. It isn't paranoia on their part as far as I can tell, it is simply incompetence and incoherence in their understanding of basic facts and their own policies coupled with a lack of accountability--some of these banks have their 'fraud department' siloed so that nobody in management can even talk to them. They must think they are the NSA and ATF all rolled into one. The key is to figure out which banks these are (I won't name names here) and simply move your assets elsewhere. If you own a small business, it is a very good idea to have a banking relationship (not necessarily your sole one) with a bank small enough that they know who you are personally and approximately what you do. Otherwise you may find that all your money is frozen at a very inopportune time.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2022, 10:18:12 pm
content: It's easier than ever to open multiple bank accounts these days, and I strongly suggest doing so. Certainly do not put all your eggs in the same basket.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2022, 10:40:23 pm
content: Particularly sensible if your company account is with the same bank as your personal account - they will raid one to pay the other without asking if it comes to the crunch.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2022, 12:13:17 am
content: Quote from: dunkemhigh on August 30, 2022, 10:40:23 pmYep. Same for mortgage. Never have a mortgage at the same bank as your personal / business accounts.

author: temperance
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2022, 12:25:57 am
content: Governments do the same... You pay tax so your government can spend that on investigating criminal activities.

author: MT
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2022, 01:00:18 am
content: Quote from: tom66 on August 30, 2022, 08:31:31 pm

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2022, 04:45:22 am
content: Quote from: temperance on August 31, 2022, 12:25:57 amBut instead it feels like your tax money is being wasted on a lot of other things and crime fighting is left behind.Quote from: SiliconWizard on August 30, 2022, 10:18:12 pmUnless you live in another country then where you like to have your bank account. Hell I had an account closed last year due to the fact that I don't live in the Netherlands or Germany, because their Germain customers are still welcome. The bank is established in the Netherlands. Long live Europe.And this charging of fees is just the new trend. Like the negative interest, that now is reversed again, but when it started many banks followed that trend. So moving to another bank won't be free for long.But it is certainly wise to have your eggs in multiple baskets.

author: MT
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2022, 11:54:58 am
content: Well, obviously "multiple basket" is good "if" it worked which it obviously dont as there is something called the "oligarchic owner class" who owns the so called multiple basket banks.

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2022, 12:56:07 pm
content: It is more about the fact that your savings are only compensated up to 100.000 euro per bank per person in case of bankruptcy. So in relation to that and in the light of the negative interest wave we had, it is best to keep it below this number per bank.Some will say that it is wiser to invest when you have that kind of money, but I personally have always been unlucky with stocks. The little I still have is below what I payed for it 15 years ago. Rather keep it where I can just use it for living without big risk of it evaporating. (Like what happened with bitcoins this year)

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2022, 05:59:09 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on August 30, 2022, 10:18:12 pmI only have accounts in 3 countries and 2 currencies.And cryptocurrency.And I am strongly considering opening a numbered Swiss account.Because it doesn't matter how little you have, someone is always coming for it.

author: Sal Ammoniac
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2022, 06:02:13 pm
content: Quote from: dunkemhigh on August 30, 2022, 05:55:40 pmIf that surprises you, take a trip to Japan. You'll find all kinds of weird stuff in vending machines, including live crabs and used women's underwear.

author: YurkshireLad
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2022, 06:04:46 pm
content: Quote from: Sal Ammoniac on August 31, 2022, 06:02:13 pmMy local mall sells cake from a vending machine. No, just no.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2022, 06:48:16 pm
content: QuoteI would love to, sometime

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2022, 03:35:38 am
content: Quote from: MT on August 31, 2022, 11:54:58 amYeah, well. It's still better than nothing, they aren't yet all synchronized to fuck up all of your accounts at once. But can this happen? For sure.

author: JohanH
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2022, 06:56:50 am
content: Quote from: dunkemhigh on August 30, 2022, 05:55:40 pmOver here in the countryside, local flower shops are sometimes unmanned. You pick your flowers and drop money into a sealed box. As far as I know, there haven't been any issues. This was even before surveillance cameras (don't think I ever saw one there).

author: sleemanj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2022, 08:22:19 am
content: Quote from: jpanhalt on August 30, 2022, 05:32:20 pmYou still use checks? How many rods to the hogshead does your horseless carriage do?

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2022, 09:12:03 am
content: In Finland, we have this thing called "crime victim payment", which is solely paid for committingvictimless crimessuch as driving normally and missing small clues about police'straffic trapswhich they use when in need of money.The name is hilarious, but the purpose is to remind the people that there are no victimless crimes, even if it seems obvious to you that you committed such a thing. But the legislator knows better.

author: eugene
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2022, 01:10:42 pm
content: A few years ago someone stole my debit card number and must have made counterfeit cards as they withdrew $1000 from my bank account (in several steps as there's a limit to how much can be withdrawn in one transaction.) I needed to file a report with the police, but the bank took the loss and put the money back into my account.I thought it was a little odd that the bank was held responsible, but I realize that it's necessary incentive for them to protect my money. If they're able to charge fees to effectively cover those losses, does that mean they'll have less incentive to try to stop this sort of crime? In a sense, they're just collecting enough money from us to hand over to the criminals....That, I think, is what's really wrong with these fees. If the crime is to be prevented, then the banks need to feel the incentive to stop it.

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2022, 01:20:49 pm
content: The bank nor the CC companies have no incentive to protect you.They push the cost onto the seller who accepted the fraudulent payment.That's why places which accept CC, particularly online, are extremely paranoid about fraud.CC is generally a braindead ideaBut CC companies made a lot of money by ultimately extorting all buyers, whether using CC or not.So I guess a smart idea too...

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2022, 01:29:24 pm
content: Quote from: eugene on September 01, 2022, 01:10:42 pmWho do you think the criminals areThey are the stake holders in the banks to begin withThe story the bank told us was that the IT costs to protect against cyber crime were getting more and more, so they need to charge us, the account holders, to compensate for them making less money.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2022, 02:08:31 pm
content: QuoteBut it wasn't the banks fault and they couldn't stop it no matter how big the virtual fine was. It's just that they have to pay for it, regardless.

author: eugene
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2022, 02:33:34 pm
content: Quote from: pcprogrammer on September 01, 2022, 01:29:24 pmI don't understand. You can't be suggesting that the people that made a counterfeit debit card then used it to withdraw money from mu bank account were stake holders in the bank. That doesn't make any sense at all.Quote from: dunkemhigh on September 01, 2022, 02:08:31 pmThat was my initial reaction too. But after more thought I decided that if anyone is going to stop this kind of theft it will have to be the banks, and they're not going to do it without incentive. Suppose someone forges a check in your name then goes into a bank to cash it. We expect the bank teller to make some effort to make sure that the check is legitimate and that the person cashing the check is who they claim to be. What if they just cashed the check without making any effort to verify the authenticity, then said "not our fault." Then added a monthly fee to cover the losses. That would be absurd. We do hold them responsible for those kind of crimes, and we need to hold them responsible for credit/debit card fraud.It might be the case that the current system doesn't make it reasonable for them to stop credit/debit card fraud. So who's going to fix things? The people that end up paying for the fraud are the only one's with incentive to do so, and that needs to be the banks. There is no one else.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2022, 03:01:22 pm
content: QuoteThat would be their fault and they should cough up because of that.QuoteQuote"Not your fault but someone has to pay and it is you."That's a bit of a slippery slope. Should your ISP pay because your PC got hacked? Someone has to make sure your PC is safe so give them a bit of incentive and make it them.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2022, 03:24:49 pm
content: Banks are one of the biggest criminals and scammers,look at how many have been hit with fines for money laundering ,sanction breaching ,insider trading and a whole host of other dodgy practices whilst being fully protected by the law.Steal from a bank and the full force of the law will be thrown at you,have your house burgled and you'll get a crime number,maybe.As for scams ,charging to hold the title deeds for a property that the bank holds the mortgage on , charging an extortionate fee to send a letter plus over draft fees due to bank making a payment twice,insisting you take out insurance that the policy holder isn't eligible for,telling you the account you've had for several years doesn't come with a debit card (even though you've had one since opening the account) and you need to switch to one with a monthly fee.Needless to say i dont trust em.

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2022, 03:36:50 pm
content: Quote from: eugene on September 01, 2022, 02:33:34 pmI was not suggesting that the real criminals that forged your card are stake holders in the bank. I was hinting at the fact that banks themselves are the criminals in the grand scheme, like themadhippy wrote above.White collar criminals that tanked the economy several times over the centuries.Just think back to 2008 when all those subprime mortgages collapsed.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2022, 03:39:56 pm
content: I am not saying they are trustworthy or without fault. But carrying the can for someone else still isn't right - I'm sure someone could find something I've done a bit dodgy, so it wouldn't be a problem blaming me, and making me pay, for something I couldn't affect?

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2022, 03:48:49 pm
content: I think they are legally bound to reimburse you in these cases. The bank will most likely also try to get the money back if it is traceable. And they will have some judicial backup to get it done when needed.But reading lawyer mumbo jumbo is tedious because the language they use is designed to keep the laymen out and their jobs secured. So who knows what the true rules are, other than the lawyers.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2022, 05:36:51 pm
content: QuoteYes, and from a customer point of view that's a good thing. But from a "solve the crime" viewpoint I'm not so sure because the banks now deal with the crime, rather than the police, and if they're still making a profit after paying out, what do they care if the perpetrators aren't nicked? Granted, it's hard to catch 'em so might even cost more to try than to just put up with it, but it does kind of twist things.

author: eugene
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2022, 06:35:57 pm
content: Quote from: dunkemhigh on September 01, 2022, 03:01:22 pmExactly my point! And if anyone is going to go to the effort to enforce secure CC/debit transactions, it will be them. I'm not going to do it. I don't want to depend on the government to mandate it. I don't want the retailers to be stuck with the cost because it's completely beyond their control (short of accepting cash only.) Who's left? Who's in a position to make it worth their while economically?

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2022, 06:48:10 pm
content: Quote from: eugene on September 01, 2022, 06:35:57 pmActually it was the retailers fault for while as they dragged their feet implementing the (more) secure chip and RFID card technology. VISA and MC implemented a policy that any retailer not offering chip readers by a certain date would be fully responsible for any resulting fraud. Also, as far as apportioning costs, different retailers pay significantly different merchant rates (% of transactions) depending on their business sector, average ticket and previous loss history. Retailers are part of the show, not an innocent bystander.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2022, 06:50:08 pm
content: QuoteOK, I see where you are coming from on that, now. But I think dbunham7 has answered appropriately

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2022, 07:00:51 pm
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on September 01, 2022, 06:48:10 pmAnd on the end of the line, you the customer pays for it all.And that is the stupidity of it all. Prices go up, so you need a raise in salary, but for the employer to pay that raise, he has to raise the prices. For a good deal of time after the big war it worked well because production costs dropped and purchasing power raised, but with what is happening at the moment that kite does not fly anymore. So where does it end?

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2022, 07:31:04 pm
content: It's always the customer at the end of the chain who pays anyway. Who else?And where does it end? Oh well. You may see where during your lifetime. Isn't that lucky?

author: eugene
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2022, 07:36:31 pm
content: As bdunham7 pointed out, retailers may be partly to blame if they don't update to more secure technology. As a customer, I suppose I could choose to not deal with those retailers if I know it might compromise the security of my own money...But, ultimately I think the banks are largely responsible. They invented CC's and then debit cards. If using those is not secure, then it is their fault and they should be held responsible for any thefts.I have not lived anywhere but the US (something I regret as I grow older, but that's another discussion.) Here, anyone paying attention understands that EVERYTHING is driven by money. It's not always ideal; it falls apart completely with any kind of monopoly, but largely it works as long as the people with the money to spend have the power. That's us, the consumers.Years ago, most banks offered interest bearing savings accounts but charged fees for a checking account. Then a few banks started offering free checking, perhaps with a minimum balance. People switched to those banks and eventually most banks started offering free checking accounts, maybe even bearing minuscule interest. I count on the same mechanism to push banks to take responsibility for CC/debit security without passing the cost on to their customers. Not because the suits in the top floor offices care about us, but because they'll learn that they will lose business if they don't.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2022, 07:41:52 pm
content: Not to say that banks are not responsible, but to be fair, payment cards have NOT been invented by banks. And they are not even handled by banks directly. VISA, Mastercard, American Express (the big 3) are NOT banks.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2022, 08:16:50 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on September 01, 2022, 07:41:52 pmWell, they may not have 'invented' the concept, but the first viable general-purpose charge card was the BankAmericard from the Bank of America. Now that card is VISA, of course. Also, while VISA/MC handle the front end of the payment system, the issuing banks are still heavily involved in all of the processes including fraud protection. If I have an issue of any kind, I call the issuing bank (Chase, Citi, whoever) not VISA/MC. And some of those 'issuing banks' are primarily credit card issuers and just barely banks at all, like Capital One. AMEX is a bit different in that it is all one company. And you forgot a fairly big one (in the US)--Discover, which is in fact a complete bank as well as an integrated card issuer.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2022, 09:31:58 pm
content: QuoteIsn't that the same as any product? The purchaser has a claim with whoever sold it to him, not the manufacturer.

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2022, 04:54:22 am
content: Quote from: eugene on September 01, 2022, 07:36:31 pmYes unfortunately everything is driven by money, but thinking that the consumers have the power is naive. Sure when at mass a movement is made a company might tumble, or a government might give in a bit, but in the long run it is the BIG money that rules the world. Less then 1% of the global population.Just look at what is happening at the moment with energy and food prices. We can complain or move to another energy company or supermarket, it won't change much. Prices are manipulated by creating shortages. (And this is accelerated by the consumers hoarding supplies)