Replacing old house electric (mains) installation, lets make it smart?? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: onesixright
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 07, 2017, 12:18:10 pm
content: Hi All,In a older house the current (lol) installation needs to be replaced (220V). Now, its 2017, so no more old school stuff!Im looking for a product that allows you to configure each socket via a timer/wall switch (with some software). Also being able to measure the (usage) for each socket would be a nice feature.I'm well aware of after marketed products that do this (via RF, wifi, etc). But these tend to be very expensive. For a house (200m2) you quickly need 40-65 sockets and at least 30 switches.I would think there are sockets (built-in) that contain a SSR that can be controlled over the main power lines (so not via RF!). Well thats what i would hope.Anyone know of such a product (EU) ?Thanks a bunch!

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 07, 2017, 12:30:14 pm
content: Do your requirements include being controlledremotely, from next door or anywhere in the worldin 5 years time, when components and/or protocols are obsoleteby the house's next occupants

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 07, 2017, 12:45:49 pm
content: AFAIK most companies producing electrical outlets (Eaton, Niko, etc) have some kind of home automation system but these systems are usually geared to switching outlets on in certain patterns (combination of lights/outlets, timer based, etc) than having things remote controlled or measured. I strongly doubt you'll benefit much from such a system in a regular home.

author: onesixright
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 07, 2017, 01:08:50 pm
content: Hey Guys, thanks for the feedback.@ tggzzzI think you hit the nail on the head, so to speak. Thats why i don't want any RF / Z-wave / Zigbee / X10 solution. I would like to see if you can bypass any form of vendor-lock-in.Th best would be SSR at the socket level, and switches with a "simpel signal" back to the central (junction box? not sure how you call it). At the central a simple "API" (turn socket x on / off) would be enough and future proof. Could be a SPI or I2C signal. Best is since its not RF no hacking, way less security issues.One step further might be controlling via a Raspberry Pi and Apple Home Kit. But if there is a simple API (after all its on or off).As to you question, maybe you wanna control it all around the world. Maybe not. But the above approach would be pretty flexible.@ nctnicoAt certain times functions of a house do changes and this allows for a flexible config. Today socket X is a lamp, tomorrow its maybe a TV. With a API you could easy group all sockets that are "lamp" and switch them off with one "command". Obviously its not something that changes daily, or weekly... But being able to control each socket individuals has it advantages. Question is what are the cost, if each socket is going to cost 25 EUR (vs maybe 5-7) well, then i agree. If its just 3-5 EUR more per socket, i would seriously consider it.Basically im looking for a very simple basic product, that you can build on. The products that you can buy now, well i see a risk (tggzzz says it) protocols can become obsolete, etc...On a side note, i don't know if you guys every experienced this, but when rebuilding a house youwillmake wrong choices (like switch on a wrong place because somethings you can not forth-see ...) and being able to change the "connections" afterwards is a big plus (i would say)

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 07, 2017, 01:52:11 pm
content: You better investigate how the controls are nowadays. 6 or 7 years ago you'd need to have a service technician come over with a laptop to reconfigure your home automation system. I've been out of touch with home automation for a while but it seems systems which allow the user to have some actual control over the system are just emerging. Then again there are no real use cases for normal homes so progress in this area is slow.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 07, 2017, 02:41:00 pm
content: I don't see how to economically future proof this. If you run control lines back to a central point you have added a requirement for at least one wire for each socket, probably two, and a fairly large box. You can get around that by addressing and multiplexing, but now you are talking specific protocols and probably vendors. It seems that your best bet is to pick a protocol that is likely to be stable and available for quite a while. Two that come to mind are the old RS-232 and CAN bus. Both would give you a lot of flexibility. There is widespread vendor support for the RS-232 leg, but it is relatively expensive, and after many decades is waning. Who knows how long CAN will last.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 07, 2017, 03:37:15 pm
content: Please don't add another type of bus to the miriad of wired, power line and wireless home control 'busses' and protocols! There are way too many already.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 07, 2017, 03:44:59 pm
content: Quote from: onesixright on January 07, 2017, 12:18:10 pmAre you sure you want to do this for every one of 65 or more wall sockets in your house? (I have over 100 wall plate sockets in mine.)Surely the number of devices that actually need remote control or monitoring at any given time is much smaller than that? So wouldn't it be better to use a plug-in adapter on a case-by-case basis that can then be controlled by conventional wi-fi?Advantages now are the adapters are not permanent and so can be updated in the future if technology changes, they can be addressed more simply because they can be numbered or labeled with what they control, and you can take them with you if you move.

author: onesixright
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 07, 2017, 04:14:21 pm
content: @CatalinaWOW see below@nctnico agreed!@ianb, well why not (all 100)? Nice feeling if you go on holiday and you can switcheverythingoff (thats needs to be off)? If you could do monitoring, you see exactly what uses what. The plugin versions are all proprietary. All wireless (which gives big problems since you need to be within range). Not truly cheap. If you have a 25 sockets and need to update you need to buy 25 new + your IFTTT solution needs probably updating as-well. And TBH there all pretty ugly (IMO)OK, well hear me out? ;-)Since thereseemsto be no solutions (yet)Anyone up for some open-source h/w?If you split the functionality, its pretty simple: there are switches and sockets.BTW a socket could also be also something you would use for direct connecting: a ceiling lamp, fan, etc. (without the plug)In essence a switch is a trigger. So a trigger can be generated via different ways:- Mechanical (human flips a swich)- Software (Andriod, iOS, Apple Home Kit, Webpage, etc..)- Sensor (Light, Sound, Movement, Smoke, Rain, Sun, Wind, you name it...)- Timer- ?Once a trigger fires, its send a message to a "basic controller" (could be a Arduino, Raspberry, PLC, .... ). The controller "flips the relay" by putting a message on the power line (i.e. SWITCH-X => ON/OFF/TOGGLE). The socket receives the messages and "acts" accordingly.Each switch and socket has it own address, and with software the possibilities are then endless (IFTTT):- group sockets and bind them to a single switch- different switches control multiple sockets (i.e. in a hall you have multiple switches: ground + 1st floor and any of those switches will turn on/off all lights in the hall/stair-case)- ...Now the sockets seems to the (my) main issue. You need a socket, a relay, dc power (for the relay) and you need some minimalistic circuit that can respond to a command (comms).The commands a socket should understand:- status? (is it on or off)- switch on- switch off- toggle- (usage: watt)- ....And obviously it should bebuilt-inversion.I know you can send communication over the mains. But can you miniaturise a circuit in such away that: the relay, power and communication circuit can get in inside (behind) the socket? If you can "throw" in a current meter, then for the energy-minded you can measure (log) each socket (optional).I have seen the power sockets that contain already USB power, so a socket with some DC circuitry (for a built-in socket) is apparently possible. I have also seen already sockets with WIFI/RF controller. Now if we can fiddle in "Power Line Communication (encrypted?)" to toggle the relay :-)NOTEThe problem with all the current WIFI / RF controlled versions is that is just a matter of time before someone can hack it (if not already). The technology that has now built bluetooth, wifi, rf, etc. needs to be replaced in the near future simply because of (potential) security issues (and updates in protocols). Also wireless will always have signal reception problems (under certain conditions) that are eliminated with wires).Therefor, i think, a wired solution with a single "central" means: only update the "central software" or replace it with a new peace of h/w. It also leaves you the choice to not use any wireless technology. Anyhow, you will not need to replace your sockets, switches and triggers!I do realise, that wired solution is also not "hack proof", but at-least it means a hacker needs physical access (which is a a extra boundary). The last thing i wish is that some script-kiddie playswith a house, if it would be a remote operated x-mas tree

author: Brutte
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 07, 2017, 06:07:09 pm
content: It is 200m2 so the average distance from socket to some central electrical box should not be longer than 15m, IMHO. So using average distance, that is 65*15m=975m of wiring with dumbest star topology.Considering that 1km of 3x1.5mm wire costs around 250euro and 1km of 2x0.4mm control wire is below 100eur, a networked bus system seems totally pointless in your case. Even with extravagant requirement of 65 individually controlled points in a 200m2 house, the wiring cost (hardware) is below 350 euro it seems. There aren't any significant differences in between installation costs of networked wiring or star topology wiring although some other installation costs have to be included.Just get a beefyDIN 35electrical box, twice as big as in your most demanding dreams, 65 DC relays, 30 power meters, a raw PLC controller, DC supply, some circuit breakers and you are good to go. Of course you can always add and remove some arduino, Wifi, bluetooth, UPS, temperature sensors or even Geiger counter.

author: onesixright
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 07, 2017, 09:27:42 pm
content: Quote from: Brutte on January 07, 2017, 06:07:09 pmYour right, and tbh it did cross my mind to just make a star. However, what kept me from it, is the "brute" solution of pulling wires into a star (redundant), while plenty of sockets will be paired. So something more "elegant" as in "smart", was my 1st choice for exploring.I did a quick look on "DIN35 relay" (key here isDIN35thanks!)DIN Rail Mount 16 SPDT 16A Power Relay Interface Module120 USD each, a few of those and your home free!https://www.amazon.com/ELECTRONICS-SALON-Mount-Interface-Module-G2R-1/dp/B00M1LVOO2Nevertheless im still open to see if we could make it smart.

author: smbaker
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 07, 2017, 09:33:09 pm
content: Quote from: onesixright on January 07, 2017, 01:08:50 pmI have an Insteon system here. It's nice to be able to control any Insteon device from any Insteon keypad and to create n-way switches on a whim. The builders of the homes I have lived in often don't put switches where I would have put switches.Insteon is an RF and PLC solution. Insteon has been hacked, though I believe the hack occurred to the Insteon "HUB" via its web portal, not to the Insteon mesh network itself. That's the point of vulnerability of many of these systems -- they have a hub or gateway that takes a private communication network and attaches it to the public Internet.While the OP's proposal of hardwiring everything would be more secure, I can't possibly imagine running low-voltage control cable to every outlet in my home. First, I don't know what codes would be violated by mixing low-voltage and mains in the same outlet boxes. Second, it sounds like a nightmare of low-voltage cabling. I had enough of that stuff wiring an alarm panel to a relatively few sensors and keypads. Third, the control devices at the receptacles would have to be capable of switching the load. SSRs give off some amount of heat.Homerunning all of the mains to one central box and putting all the relays in that box is better (one central location with 65 relays rather than 65 locations with one relay) but still sounds like a daunting quantity of wire. Consider that each of the 65 locations are likely duplex receptacles, so you'll likely want to control each half of the duplex individually. Furthermore, sometimes you have several devices you want to power from the same receptacle -- what do you do in that case? Do you install a pair of duplex receptacles for areas where more than two loads are anticipated? Also keep in mind that many of your light fixtures you're going to want to be dimmable. It's not just the fixed light fixtures, you might want to plug a dimmable table lamp into a receptacle.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 07, 2017, 09:34:52 pm
content: Whatever you do will have to comply with local building codes. It might prove valuable to consult a qualified contractor before making very detailed plans.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 07, 2017, 09:37:58 pm
content: Quote from: Brutte on January 07, 2017, 06:07:09 pmThe maths gets a bit more complicated when you want real switches to also turn the endpoints on/off, running a control wire (appropriately segregated) all the way back to a central board gets old fast since you need to keep it all labelled, documented, and maintainable. Having worked on several "smart" building installations you have an easier time when the control systems are distributed down to the level of a few rooms each, more than 10 loads and less than 100 per controller/hub.C-Bus is opened and there is a wealth of cheap hardware out there for experimenters:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C-Bus_(protocol)

author: Brutte
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 07, 2017, 10:47:19 pm
content: Quote from: onesixright on January 07, 2017, 09:27:42 pmI do not like that idea. It is more expensive than a generic single relay and less flexible at the same time. Just get a bucket of DIN35 mounted relays of various kinds your project requires (+ some spares). Most of the relays needed are 24VDC but most likely some relays would have to be mains powered, or even bistable. Then you can pick any type you want, there are single/double pole versions, solid state, etc.When you install 16x module like this one, you loose the flexibility.As for doing low voltage and high voltage - no one said these have to be physically placed together. You can/should put mains lines separate from control lines same as you do not put TV coax twisted around a dishwasher socket. And a wall switch does not have to be mains powered as a 24V wiring would do the job. But if you are a wealthy man you can put a mains wire there and use a 230V relay or even 230V IO in PLC - no problem.Also if you feel your expectations could sky-rocket in the nearest future then you can always hide somePVC conduitsin the walls. These are much harder to place than just doing plain wiring butmore "elegant".

author: Brutte
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 07, 2017, 11:15:52 pm
content: Quote from: Someone on January 07, 2017, 09:37:58 pmThat is true. Especially when a contractor is involved. Then you need to put every detail of every wire documented in a design. Not only where the ends are but also how the wire snakes through the house. That is also similar with networked solution although the length of the wires is indeed lower than with a star. As for maintainability, the star topology with relays and/or PLC is even simpler to maintain than a distributed network because everything that can get wrong is in that one electrical box.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 07, 2017, 11:27:37 pm
content: Quote from: Brutte on January 07, 2017, 11:15:52 pmMore than one contractor. The installer, and the maintainersand modifiers over the decades.I suspect any such maintainers will either think "mmm, lotsa time/money needed simply to understand the system before I touch it and recertify it is safe", or run away screaming and find something easy do to and certify.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 08, 2017, 12:12:43 am
content: IMHO the central box idea isn't bad. They use that in hotels as well. Over here the electricity wiring code allows the run multiple wires through one conduit for as long as they are behind the same (single/multiphase) breaker. When using 10A breakers you could use 1.5mm^2 wires and run several relay switched live wires along one neutral (and ground) through one conduit towards a group of outlets. Over here there usually is one (or more) central junction box(es) in the ceiling (also used to hang a lamp from) which feeds the switches and outlets in a room. It would be the ideal place to pull a bunch of wires to and then spread over the outlets. That way the electrical installation is completely passive and easy to up or downgrade.The more I think of this method the more I'm convinced it is the best way to do it because everything else is just a way to add home automation as an afterthought to an existing installation.

author: Brutte
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 08, 2017, 09:55:14 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on January 08, 2017, 12:12:43 amThat is kind of star of stars topology: one electrical box per room plus one central electrical box. Although doable and advantageous in a hotel with long corridors, impractical for a 200m2 house (unless it is 1m x 200m house). Wiring is too cheap to play with, saving a conductor here and there. As for conduits, actually single 1.5mm2 conductors are easier to pull inside than 3x1.5mm2 wire so it is a matter of installation procedure, preferences and local resources.Remember that any grid requires servicing and it is inevitable that occasionally someone hammers a nail right through the wiring. Two months later, in the middle of the winter at at 2 a.m. a main circuit breaker triggers... Figure out which nail ruined your day.KISS.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 08, 2017, 10:35:02 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on January 08, 2017, 12:12:43 amUnfortunately that will remain the case for the foreseeable future, because the field is changing so fast that in a few years something significantly better will have evolved and will be incompatible with whatever has gone before.In the mid-80s a colleague was renovating a house, so he buried comms lines under the plaster. RS-232 lines. A few years later it was thin-ethernet, then a few years after that it was... The same will be true for home automation.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 08, 2017, 01:29:40 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on January 08, 2017, 10:35:02 amBut the mains wiring has been the same for over 100 years: insulated metal wires. So if you bring those wires to a central point then you can use the same infrastructure for decades when it comes to home automation.BTW I hope your colleague has learned to run wires through conduits. That way you can replace them later on. When I have the chance I fit extra pipes in my home for data cables.

author: nfmax
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 08, 2017, 02:51:27 pm
content: You might try browsing around inhttps://www.domoticaforum.euand seeing what others have done. It's also a good place to ask questions. The site is NL-based, and 'domotics' seems to be very popular there.At least your wiring practices are more conducive to automation than the UK, with our ring mains wiring, no neutral to light switch boxes, and other quaint customs (all of which seemed reasonable at the time, though)

author: Wilksey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 08, 2017, 11:11:20 pm
content: In the UK the light "switch boxes" or switches, are just Live (Hot) contactors, one live feed coming in, one switched live going out, the neutral is connected at the light source. C/w Earth.I don't really understand the need for the general consumer to have "home automation", if I want to turn my lamp on, I get up and turn it on, I don't start fumbling for my phone, load the app, wait for it to pair / connect / whatever then turn the lamp on with an on-screen button.The closest I had was an RF controlled socket (4 of them to be precise), it was fun for a few weeks then I started getting interference on the 433MHz band and they stopped working, back to the old switch!At this rate you're going to need 6 different skillsets to wire a bloody plug in the future! What's wrong with a standard switch for turning things on and off?EndNow, I can see a need for some kind of automation for the elderly or disabled, that's a different story, there is a whole world of aids that can be designed to help in this area!What surprised me the most having helped friends and family who fit the category, is how much people (and contractors) try and monetise from being old or disabled, it can be quite sickening what people quote and try and con you out of.You can buy things online VAT free if they are for a disabled person (or certain things anyway), some of the people I have dealt with thought I was the disabled person wanting them for myself personally (apart from a bit of occasional mental disablement, i'm physically able, just lazy), and they are unbelievable!

author: LaurentR
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2017, 12:43:03 am
content: Over the past decade, I have had the occasion of deploying some home automation and remodeling a few houses with this in mind.Random system list: Z-Wave, Elk alarm, Hikvision IP cameras, Synology NAS, AIPhone intercom, Nest thermostat, Rainmachine irrigation, Harmony multi room remote, Google Home and Chromecast, Samsung SmartThings, various LAN/WiFi/Audio equipment.First, for most people, I'd recommend to do nothing to your home infrastructure and use mass-market, wifi or cloud based solutions. Integration is getting better everyday (IFTTT, Amazon Echo...) but be ready to change parts of the puzzle somewhat often as things become obsolete/unsupported.On the other hand, for those handy with technology and wanting to go a bit further with more durable and reliable solutions (i.e. many people on this forum), I'd recommend doing this:For power wiring and power control:* Make sure you have hot, neutral and ground in all boxes, especially switch boxes.* Put bigger switch boxes when possible to allow for various control items to be neatly integrated in the wall.* Do not run low-voltage control wiring for power control. Power control is a low-bandwidth activity and PLC or wireless works well and this is the direction of history.* Add smart switches/outlets/controllers only where you need them. There is no need to spend more than you need and even with reliable technology, you may yourself want to switch solutions eventually. My current house has ~100% controllable switches (mostly Leviton Z-Wave - about 40 nodes total). Only 20-40% ever get switched remotely (landscape and outdoor lighting, wake-up lights, TV room lights, some remote switches for far-away lights...).For low-voltage wiring including networking:* Put 1-3 Cat5e/6/6A outlets in each room (depending on room topology) with 2-3 runs per outlet (cost permitting).* I use them for my backbone LAN (WAN, wifi APs, PoE IP cams, NAS, a few fixed computers, alarm, test equipment...).* I also use them for some weird stuff that I didn't plan (RS-485 for alarm keypads, video and remote keys for intercom, some remote audio signals, wired communication between alarm, intercom and IP cams, irrigation...). Cat 5e/6/6A can do it all and it won't go obsolete for a long time.I am a firm believer in wired (non-LAN) communication if that works first as this can stay working for decades with no maintenance. Second comes wired LAN-only connections as these are more reliable and need little maintenance. Third, wireless LAN if wiring is unavailable or RJ-45 is not available on the (consumer) device. Last, cloud-based when uniquely useful. That's what works for me. YMMV.Laurent

author: stj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2017, 02:35:14 am
content: whatever you do,put any cables into conduit tubing.that way if you need to replace or upgrade anything later, you dont need to rip the floorboards up or destroy the plasterwork.

author: AlexDavidson
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2017, 06:30:47 am
content: About 15 years ago I set off down a similar path to the OP. This was in a new house, so it was relatively easy to install all the wiring. I went with C-Bus, as that was (and probably still is) about the only choice here in Australia. The mains wiring was all home run back to a control room in the centre of the house, along with several Cat5+ cables to each room. It took me several months to label and terminate...A few thoughts:1. While it is easy enough to set up a system to demonstrate the basics of home automation, achieving reliable operation over many years isn’t easy. Murphy’s law rears it’s ugly head often. If something can go wrong, it will. I think that’s one of the reasons why it hasn’t really caught on.2. With CBus at least, the system is essentially dumb. To achieve anything beyond simple reassignment of switches to loads you need some sort of control system, and that’s where it starts to get complicated. Not only because whatever system you choose may become obsolete, but also because once you connect up devices that can behave unexpectedly, the unexpected happens. You don’t really want to spend half an hour every time there is a power failure or lightning nearby, trying to figure out why those 300 switches, sensors, and loads have a mind of their own.In my case I started out with a box called Minder, but because that is now obsolete I ended up developing my own software & hardware to replace & augment the original CBus system. At least with my own system I am not reliant on others to maintain, but it’s not something I would recommend unless you have thousands of hours available.3. If possible, avoid shared neutrals. It can make rewiring really difficult, e.g. if you want to reassign a load from a dimmer to a relay. Consider running one or 2 spare cables to each zone.4. Don’t skimp on network cabling. I ran 3-5 Cat5+ cables to each room plus a couple of coax cables, but in some cases even that hasn’t really been enough.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2017, 08:38:18 pm
content: I will also add please label each and every cable, and have a diagram in the central hub area with a plan view of the house, and with each room labelled, and then a separate page for each room, giving a scale drawing of the room, the outlet location on the plan, and with that cable numbers for both ends. Do this for both power cabling and network cabling, and I will also second pulling 3 cables for each low voltage conduit, along with also putting a draw wire ( thick fishing line will do) in each line along with the cabling, so you can pull through additional ones later. As well when making bends use a large radius bend on every one, and if not put a large joint box ( marked on the diagram as well with the cables running in it) in a strategic location to draw through.Put few extra conduits into the roof or floor crawl space as well from your master hub area, that way you can always put in extra conduit when doing something like an extension, or adding exterior cameras or lighting later. If you have a largish garden and are planning to put up a shed or something later these will be invaluable, and if doing the conduit to there use a larger size conduit, preferably a 50mm PVC pipe or two with temporary caps on it for construction, buried the appropriate distance underground as well.You might want to also add a conduit pair to the gate area, in case later you want either electric automated gates, an intercom or just a camera there. I will also add that many small surveillance cameras will work well off Cat5/6 cable, just using a balun to get the video back, and the other 3 pairs to provide the power to the camera. Even works with those with built in IR illumination as well. Just put a grounding rod down by the camera, and bond the camera ground along with the case to it, to survive close lightning strikes. It does work.

author: onesixright
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2017, 05:04:36 pm
content: Thank you all for the comments and advice, much appreciated! Made a note on labeling, documenting (conduits, etc.) thats of course extremely important (if you don't wanna get lost in a maze of wires). COAX and CAT/5E/6 was already the list alreadyIf i would choose the star topology and would like to measure each outlet. Would a ACS172 be good enough to measure for each socket? Any other sensor that comes to mind? Although overkill, I do want to measure per socket (and not per group). The main reason is that for the near future, i wanna move (i know ambitious and idealistic) to 100% solar power. And i wish to be able to see at any point, exactly what draws power and how much.A few other questions:Quote from: AlexDavidson on January 09, 2017, 06:30:47 amWould you like to share how did you use the C-Bus? Can I just pull in a (shielded?) 4 wire for each c-bus (sensor/switch)? since the switches needs to be powered? 5V for a C-Bus switch (20x2 meters, has a bit of voltage drop....).Quote from: LaurentR on January 09, 2017, 12:43:03 amI not sure if i follow you. How would you then power low voltage sensors and switches (like C-Bus) ? Could you elaborate?Quote from: Wilksey on January 08, 2017, 11:11:20 pmI couldn't agree more (although its not that complicated, my hue works a bit easier)! Obviously there might moment where it comes in handy (lay in bed an switch off all lights), but this is not my goal. I just want a wall switch to switch something on i like to be switched on. After 3 houses, the switches are:a) not usedb) switches something on that doesn't need to be switchedLet me give you a few examples:a) In most houses the wall switch turns on the lamp on the ceiling. Now i want to switch (with that switch), multiple lights in my living room (eg. one next to the sofa and one on the desk)?b) in the kitchen i would like to switch on my espresso machine (needs to heat up for 20 mins). Yes i can put a timer on it, and then go threw the house to change it 2x year when daylight saving changes. But whats the fun in that?c) I want some lights to go on between certain hours (eg. between 5-6 PM). Use timers? But then the wall switch doesn't workWith a star (or some semi-inteligent) network, controlled by relays, i can change it whenever i like, how i like. Of course this is not something you want to fiddle around on a daily bases, but things do change.I have seen many of the proprietary solutions that don't make sense. The house (and wiring) are going to outlive the tech. Although upgrading is not a huge issues, your not gonna replace your sockets and switches because the tech doesn't support it any more. A star with relays that you can easy control via SPI/I2C/C-Bus/Shift registers will always be working (wired). The the HA controller is thrown out in 5 years because there is a smaller Rasberry Pi, fine. Costs 30 USD.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2017, 05:41:19 pm
content: Quote from: SeanB on January 09, 2017, 08:38:18 pmAnd don't forget to ensure that every contractor that works on the installation in the next 30 yearscorrectlyupdates both the mastersandall the copies around.If CAD is involved, ensure that the application continues to be available and work on the dataset over the same time.Good luck with that.If you don't, then sooner or later it will all be very expensively ripped out and replaced, because no contractor will be able to trust whatever might be there. In other words, seriously consider that it mightreducethe property's value.

author: stj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2017, 07:08:38 pm
content: if you want to go solar, you should probably think about how much sun you will actually get!given that the ozone layer is wrecked, it's a shame nobody developed a panel optimised for UV-A-B.

author: onesixright
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2017, 07:49:48 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on January 10, 2017, 05:41:19 pmI get you need to update your documentation. But this sounds i'm getting myself in to some sort of documentation-nightmare. Isn't it always the case you need to update the documentation? Whats the bottleneck, that you have 65-100 socketsgoing into a star? I mean you need to document all of them anyway? Doesn't pullingeverythingin a star gives a much better overview then all these sockets in a room that are interconnected?There is no CAD, and TBH i hope i don't need to change a lot in the near future (thats one of the reasons).Anyway, notes, i will check this with local regulation (CZ).

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2017, 08:58:18 pm
content: You don't really need to document as long as you apply the wiring in a standard way for the type of building. In that case every electrician will know by 'instinct' which wires go where. One of my relatives used to be an electrician and he is perfectly capable of telling which wires go where just by looking at the layout of the breaker panel and the layout of the rooms in a house.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2017, 12:55:05 am
content: Quote from: stj on January 10, 2017, 07:08:38 pmThat has been reversed through the international effort:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ozone_depletion#Prospects_of_ozone_depletionIt should be recovering slowly now.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2017, 01:41:08 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on January 10, 2017, 08:58:18 pmThat's true for standard design patterns.This topic is about novel design patterns, i.e. smart homes.Any electrician that presumes and relies on adherence to local building regulations is, um, bold (as in "there are old electricians and bold electricians, but no old bold electricians")

author: stj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2017, 01:43:53 am
content: no, the UV has been lied about.i intend to build my own UV meter soon to check.hopefully using one of these.https://shop.mikroe.com/click/sensors/uvor these:https://shop.mikroe.com/click/sensors/uv2

author: LaurentR
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2017, 05:25:26 pm
content: Quote from: onesixright on January 10, 2017, 05:04:36 pmWhat I meant was that, yes there are some installer-type or DIY solutions that use either home runs or run LV wiring into every switch box. However, there are many many more solutions that use PLC or wireless (or both) and except maybe in very high-end residential or commercial, nobody is going to be developing new home-run or LV-to-the-switch-box solutions since PLC or wireless is very appropriate (it's low-bandwidth) and can address 99.99% of the market.There are already plenty of PLC/wireless solutions on the market, including most professional solutions (Z-Wave through many brands, Lutron RadioRA, Lutron Caseta, UPB, OnQ-ALC, Centralite) and piles of consumer-grade stuff (mostly using ZigBee and Wifi). If you pick any of the professional solutions, you'll get support for many years and a gateway with at least RS-232 or RS-485, then your only issue is to keep a programming PC with the software (same as owning a 90s-era car that needs its custom PC to access).

author: AlexDavidson
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2017, 09:13:06 pm
content: QuoteAn Cat5 cable runs in a loop to all C-Bus devices. It operates at a low baud rate so shielding isn't required. 3 pairs are paralleled together to reduce voltage drop and create a 2-wire power and communications bus. The other pair is left spare.This documenthttp://updates.clipsal.com/ClipsalOnline/Files/Brochures/C0000239.pdfprovides a fair bit of information about the system, and there is more technical information herehttp://www2.clipsal.com/cis/technical/product_groups/cbus.If you are thinking of implementing your own similar system, I would suggest using CAN. It is very robust, and if you run it at say 50 kb/s you will achieve reliable operation over hundreds of metres. Also there are plenty of MCUs available with CAN built-in for you to make your own nodes.Re documentation, I keep the details of all loads and how they are connected in a database which I keep up to date as changes are made. I print labels from the database and attach to the wiring panels. The C-Bus installation software outputs html documentation.