Small industrial power generator - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Dajgoro
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 27, 2021, 10:38:41 am
content: HelloI'm working on a project which requires a small power generator (2-3kW) that would be automatically turned on as a backup to solar panels when there isn't enough sun to keep the device operating.Its a device installed in a semi remote location so it should be all automated.The usual small petrol generators often come with a hand starter, which is bit useless for this. Those that do have electric starters are still carbureted with a manual choke which is a bit unreliable to start, and there is nobody to pull the choke lever when needed.For now the solution is a diesel generator, but that is a bit overkill since the smallest one that I found was 5kW, and is is huge are utterly loud.Is there anything out there that can be started reliably every time, isn't huge, fuel efficient, relatively quiet and can be used in a semi industrial environment?Also it should be something available to purchase in Europe, so can't be some mysterious alibaba product.

author: Berni
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 27, 2021, 11:22:07 am
content: One type of such are so called "Marine generators", here is an example of a company that makes them:https://www.fischerpanda.co.uk/marine_ac_generators_home.htmlThese are more sophisticated things that aren't just a lawnmower engine strapped to a generator. They are water cooled engines with electronic fuel injection and sound proofing to make them quiet. They have starter motors and electronics that can automatically start it when required.But i would imagine they also cost many times more than the cheep lawnmower abomination generators found in local hardware stores.

author: Dajgoro
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 27, 2021, 11:39:44 am
content: Quote from: Berni on January 27, 2021, 11:22:07 amThis is more like it, but from what I read, this needs seawater for cooling, which might be an issue inland.

author: Berni
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 27, 2021, 12:02:31 pm
content: Quote from: Dajgoro on January 27, 2021, 11:39:44 amYeah this is why the whole thing can be put into a foam padded box to make it quiet.I think they have an internal water pump that will push water around the loop, so then all you really need to do is hook up a large enough radiator to the water ports and fill it up with antifreeze.Its a lot more difficult to make an air cooled engine quiet.

author: mzzj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 27, 2021, 12:17:03 pm
content: Diesel engine is maybe not so bad idea at all. Modern day gasoline gets stale in couple of months and cause all kind of problems. ((Bio)Diesel has also its problems but if you buy FAME-free diesel it stays good for years)Remote start generator brings lots of gasoline options, some with manual and some automatic choke.

author: Dajgoro
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 27, 2021, 03:14:47 pm
content: Yes, but all of those seem to be oversized for what I need here.Also when looking at the efficiency of such generators, they seem to all be most efficient at full load, at light load they are way worse.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 27, 2021, 04:42:52 pm
content: Is lpg an option? honda used to do a nice little 2kva unit with remote start but buggered if i can find it on there web site

author: Nauris
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 27, 2021, 05:32:06 pm
content: Hatz has the new fiPMG series 3 kw inverter single cylinder diesel. But I have no experience with those.Older ones I have seen equipped with auto-start systems, they are quite reliable engines and don't use much fuel.https://www.hatz-diesel.com/en/fipmg/

author: Dajgoro
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 27, 2021, 06:01:18 pm
content: Maybe LPG is an option, I'll have to check.

author: dmills
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2021, 11:54:41 am
content: The fischerpanda stuff is available with an (externally mounted) radiator, they are very common in broadcast trucks.On past experience however, do watch the size of the sump fitted, you want the big one or the required frequency of oil changes will be a serious pisser.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2021, 12:19:51 pm
content: What sort of run-time do you need ?How about an EV battery. If it's remote, the lack of maintainance and refueling could outweigh the initial cost

author: Nauris
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2021, 04:55:05 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on January 29, 2021, 12:19:51 pmBut you can use regular car too, don't need to be an EV! Easy to fit auto-start in older one and they are really cheap and available everywhere!

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2021, 06:25:49 pm
content: Quote from: Nauris on January 29, 2021, 04:55:05 pmI meant an EV-style battery, in terms of size & capacity ( 10s of kWh), not one that was actually still in an EV!The point is that a solar charged EV-scale battery would have near-zero maintainance and zero noise. Depending on the run-time requirements, it may not even cost much more than an industrial quality ICE generator, and would probably pay for itself over time.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2021, 06:49:50 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on January 29, 2021, 06:25:49 pmYou mean a Li-ion battery pack!However I don't think this is economic. The OP states a 3kW generator is necessary. You'd need a Li-ion pack costing thousands of euros to offer a reasonable runtime. And add extra solar panels to that as well to get the battery charged.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2021, 06:59:09 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on January 29, 2021, 06:49:50 pmBut the savings in accessing a "semi remote location" over a few years might make it more economic. It's probably at least worth a look.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2021, 07:39:50 pm
content: I'm not sure what you mean by a "semi-remote" location since you also state that a 5kW diesel set is too loud. Do you have access to the Honda EU3000-series generators there? They cost about $2K USD (here in the US) and are the top choice for outdoor temporary merchants--food vendors, etc--due to their low noise and high reliability and efficiency.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2021, 08:05:42 pm
content: Quote from: Dajgoro on January 27, 2021, 06:01:18 pmAn advantage of LPG is that you don't have the issue of additives settling out that you do with petrol/gas

author: Alti
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2021, 08:17:13 pm
content: Quote from: Dajgoro on January 27, 2021, 10:38:41 amIf you want to power sth of ~constant power 2-3kW then PV won't work on Earth*.Get a small generator, start it once. Then service/replace regularly. IC engines have efficiency of 20-30% so for 1kWh electric you need 4-5kWh in fuel. There is about 13kWh in each kg of hydrocarbon so for 2kWelectric you need at least 8kWhfuel/h and 192kWhfuel per day, about 15kg per day and about 5400kg per year.Of course it is possible to build solar freakin PV field with solar freakin backup battery that can deliver 2kW in 24/7/365, it is only a matter who pays for this.

author: Dajgoro
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2021, 11:20:28 am
content: I looked into the Hatz thing, I talked to their UK office (understanding native English people over the phone is not as trivial as one might think) and they seem to have what I was looking for, and they sent me to a local dealer. I talked to the local guy here in Zagreb but so far whats being offered does not make much more economic sense that what we have already.By semi-remote location I mean a field where a operator can come to do service and refueling, but it can't be expected to come every day.I looked the Honda EU3000, and it looks nice but I still see a choke lever, and it would still require me bodging up every unit with relays so it has a start/stop control connector to hook the plc.If only they made such generators which are fully automatic and had external control inputs, that would be wonderful.As for the EV battery thing, its just bit too pricey to have so many batteries to last the entire winter season.We actually did ask a local company that does solar solutions to give us a solution that would work all year long, and due to the shitty weather in December/January it turned out we would need an entire little solar farm.Also, what is the situation with gumming up with diesel, from what I saw diesel is in a better position than petrol.Tho I did have the idea of starting the generator once a week just to prevent things from clogging up.

author: fcb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2021, 11:46:39 am
content: +1 for FischerPanda diesel marine generators. They do a 4kVA unit now in a silencer. Cooling will be straightforward with an external radiator/fan. Remore start, etc... Kubota also good. J series.Regular oil changes will be an issue with any small unmanned operation (typically they specify oil changes every 100+ hours), you could increase this if you built an external oil system and extra filtering but still. Modern 4 stroke petrol generators have other things that require servicing/cleaning (plugs, arrestors).

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2021, 11:55:10 am
content: Yamaha does have electric start small generator sets, and also offer an AMF option that you wire to them so that they will start 30 seconds after the mains fails, using a standard DIN rail module that implements all the functions of mains detection, start output, retry and generator protection, and which controls the 2 contactors directly. The box also has a battery charger, so the starter battery is maintained, as the control uses the 12V battery for power. works with most of the small generators with electric start, and while you will need to have a monthly oil change there with it running probably 12 hours a day, it will work.

author: beanflying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2021, 12:07:32 pm
content: Depending on local availability take a look at the Onan RV range. Should be able to meet all your needshttps://www.cummins.com/generators/rv-generatorsDiesel and Petrol/Gas options.OrKohlerhttp://www.kohlerpower.com/home/index.htmlback in the dim dark past I worked for the local importer. Generally Petrol or Gas powered.

author: richard.cs
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2021, 07:26:06 pm
content: Quote from: Dajgoro on February 01, 2021, 11:20:28 amDiesel is better than petrol, there's no gumming but the big issue is biofilm. The diesel tank will tend to build up a layer of water on bottom with the diesel floating on top due to inevitable small amounts of contamination, condensation etc. Bacteria grow at the interface between the two layers and form a mat that can clog up fuel filters.Propane totally avoids degradation, it'll sit in a tank unchanged for hundreds of years until the walls rust out and it leaks.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2021, 11:22:19 pm
content: Quote from: richard.cs on February 01, 2021, 07:26:06 pmDoes propane have any issues starting at low temperatures due to poor vaporisation?

author: beanflying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2021, 11:40:36 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on February 01, 2021, 11:22:19 pmSome reading and numbers herehttps://www.elgas.com.au/blog/1948-how-lpg-propane-liquid-changes-to-gas-lpg-vaporisation#:~:text=Water%20boils%20at%20100%C2%B0,looks%20a%20lot%20like%20water.The little disposable cylinders are however an issue if you go camping a lot. Fairly common for people to sleep with them to allow use the next morning

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2021, 11:45:31 pm
content: propanes good down to around -40c,butane around 0c,although by running the canister upside down and looping the feed tube through the burner you can get it to work lower than that

author: Berni
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2021, 08:05:33 am
content: Yeah as it gets cold the pressure inside the cylinder drops really low, once that happens more demanding appliances might not get enough flow rate from it. The gas cylinders are typically filled with a mix of propane and butane so the actual boiling point is somewhere in between those numbers. The cooling effect of the boiling LPG is also pretty significant.My previous car was modified to run on LPG. They got around the low temperature problems by running on gasoline at first until the engine warms up to about room temperature. They also got around the boiling issue by taking LPG from the tank as a liquid then running it trough a evaporator unit where it is heated using the engine coolant, delivering it to the injectors as a warm gas.Then again the big diesel generators have heaters on them that keep them constantly warm, so when the power goes out they easily fire up and can go straight to full throttle.

author: richard.cs
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2021, 09:42:28 am
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on February 01, 2021, 11:22:19 pmWith a boiling point of -42 C, not in most of the world). That is assuming pure propane, mixes with butane have a higher boiling point. Larger propane engines withdraw liquid from the tank and have their own vaporiser rather than relying on ambient heat transfer into the tank. Here (UK) there is a specific bottle type intended for forklift trucks which is intended for liquid withdrawal.

author: mzzj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2021, 09:37:24 am
content: Quote from: Dajgoro on January 27, 2021, 03:14:47 pmHonda EU3000IS with automatic choke kit.Alkylate gasoline for storability. Or propane kit for the Honda.Don't know if alkylate gasoline is available at any pump in Croatia? If you don't need huge amounts you can probably find Aspen alkylate gashttps://www.drezga.hr/aspen-goriva

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 12, 2021, 10:33:39 pm
content: Quote from: Dajgoro on February 01, 2021, 11:20:28 amSorry for the late reply. There are ready-made remote start kits for the EU3000is.https://www.pinellaspowerproducts.com/product/honda-eu3000is-4-function-wireless-remote-control-kit/