How come you never hear the term "transistor-based" storage? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / beginners

author: Solares
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2020, 08:54:47 pm
content: As we all know. Solid state disks are becoming standard on a lot of everyday computers these days.They use millions of transistors inside right?While you hear about "magnetic based storage", "platter based storage", "NAND based storage" "flash based storage" etc., in describing mechanical and solid state storage technologies, you never hear the term "transistor based storage" in reference to flash memory?Anyone have a theory why that might be?

author: Benta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2020, 09:10:09 pm
content: Because it's totally irrelevant. Who are you trying to get a rise from with this?

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2020, 11:00:17 pm
content: You just listed several more specific "transistor-based" types of storage. That seems to be your answer.Tim

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 22, 2020, 11:19:58 pm
content: Quote from: T3sl4co1l on July 22, 2020, 11:00:17 pmThis ^ ^ ^"Transistor based" is, these days, a class descriptor - which doesn't help much in conversation. It is the specific types within that class are the useful categories for discussion.

author: atmfjstc
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2020, 11:32:00 pm
content: In practice the term "flash" already covers pretty much all technology that could be called "transistor-based storage", so there's no point in coming up with a long and pretentious-sounding term when a short and popular one already exists.

author: Solares
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2020, 11:41:33 pm
content: Quote from: Benta on July 22, 2020, 09:10:09 pmYou know some people have a curiosity about the world. They love finding out about new things. They love hearing about opinions from experts. Why? Because, it's mind expanding. It helps you see everyday objects in a different light. It gives you a better understanding of how things work in the world.Sure, you will always have people trying to learn for the sake of impressing the boss. But, when the motivation is extrinsic (as opposed to intrinsic) their learning is shallow. Most people can eventually see through them.And then there is the cynics. They take pride in taking cheap potshots from the sidelines. They might be impressed with themselves when they do that. But, people of real character never do this...And, I've met enough people in my life to learn that people of real character are never impressed with cynics. If they have a negative opinion, they keep it to themselves. When they do have something to say, its usually constructive not destructive. Try to become one of those people, even just for a week. It can be life changing.

author: Solares
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2020, 11:48:13 pm
content: Quote from: T3sl4co1l on July 22, 2020, 11:00:17 pmVery true, you can't avoid them...I guess it would be like calling a Tesla and a Ford F150 wheel-based automobiles...

author: Solares
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2020, 11:54:38 pm
content: Quote from: Brumby on July 22, 2020, 11:19:58 pmRight. It's all about proper categorisation. NAND, NOR, EEPROM would probably lead to a more defined discussion alright.

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2020, 12:22:59 am
content: You could broaden the class to, for example: electronic storage. That would include a whole swath of electromagnetic (with the more-magnetic-than-electric methods being an arguable example), electronic (from vacuum and gas tube, to transistor, to other semiconductor phenomena), perhaps chemical as well (electronics and chemistry being brothers under the same electron, there are many connections between them), and probably more.Pure mechanical storage would then be excluded (e.g., the over-center cam), unless maybe when electrically actuated (relays for example, uhh DLP mirrors and other similar MEMS stuff may be included as well) or sensed.Within that, you could also ask: what's semiconductor based, but not transistor based? Memristor arrays come to mind. Mask ROM (arrays of diodes, or the lack thereof, between row and column lines) might count, if you don't mind that it's programmed by the factory. FeRAM... miiight count? I forget if it can be done without transistors (i.e., the usual stuff is basically ferroelectric DRAM, IIRC) -- core memory is the magnetic version and doesn't need transistors in and of itself, so it stands to reason the same may be true of ferroelectric RAM.Oh, I guess core memory too, the ferromagnetic materials are technically semiconductors. They aren't used by flowing electric current through the material though.Tim

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2020, 08:22:26 am
content: Quote from: T3sl4co1l on July 22, 2020, 11:00:17 pmIf the first transistor-based storage technology were named "transistor-based storage", then we would have that "transistor-based storage" and later a whole bunch of transistor-based but not "transistor-based" storageBut people came up with different names.Maybe one day somebody wise will create an ultimate classification scheme of all storage technologies and there will be a "transistor-based" node in the classification tree which everybody will be memorizing in primary school

author: iteratee
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2020, 09:19:42 am
content: Quote from: atmfjstc on July 22, 2020, 11:32:00 pmFlash is pretty specific to insulated floating-gate type persistent digital storage, and usually only the kind designed for high-speed and many write cycles. DRAM and SRAM are definitely not flash.

author: atmfjstc
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2020, 12:47:57 pm
content: Quote from: iteratee on July 23, 2020, 09:19:42 amSure, but I don't think DRAM and SRAM would be called "transistor-based storage" in the context of the OP's post. The phrasing suggests 'storage' in the sense of non-volatile, long-term, large-scale memories, not battery-backed BIOS data and the like. Also, while you can make a case for SRAM back and forth, DRAM would more appropriately be called "capacitor based storage" since the operating principle does not rely on any specific property of transistors - they could easily be replaced with any other form of switch and the result could still be legitimately called DRAM.

author: RandallMcRee
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2020, 03:06:14 pm
content: Quote from: atmfjstc on July 23, 2020, 12:47:57 pmBingo. A non-snarky answer to the original post is that a transistor does not "store" anything.If you look at all non-volatile storage it relies on some material property--magnetic properties of material, phase change, optics, etc. but not transistors. Obviously, to get those little bits of material to interface to the real world we then need electronics which of course implies transistors in our current state of technology.Even DRAM is using capacitance as its real memory, and the transistor is like a readout.

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2020, 04:34:46 pm
content: Heh, I guess one could quibble that it depends on the type of transistor. MOSFETs with floating gates (EPROM and such) store nonvolatile state. One could argue that it's a property of the material or geometry I guess.But then, "transistance" is itself a physical material property. Are transistors not even transistors, because they are a material property too? That doesn't seem like a good way to define things, actually.Regarding DRAM, one might note that a physically independent capacitor is not used; capacitance is a fundamental property not just of transistors, but of literally anything that physically exists -- anything that has nonzero dimension. Should we then blame the transistor for having properties that aren't purely "transistance" in nature? It's like saying, sure, humans are good at technology, but they don't actually have hands with dexterous fingers and opposable thumbs, they just happen to always be connected to them.I guess the ultimate point is to be careful how you categorize, because nothing in the universe is a pure incarnation of some given attribute; all things are a combination of all possible attributes, in varying proportions (including zero, but not necessarily often!). The character, the pattern of those attributes, defines the thing-ness of that thing; the gestalt, or personality, or soul of it, you might say, depending on context. It's very tempting to categorize by thresholds that are as narrow as possible, to simplify; this is unwise.Behold, a man:...Tim

author: RandallMcRee
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2020, 04:46:49 pm
content: Well, you are right, but you are also oh so wrong!Seriously, it seems to me the important thing here is not philosophy so much as the word "transistor" itself, i.e. its context and history. If we hearken back to when the word was coined it meant something without many of the magical (used in the sense of Tesla, here) properties that we can now ascribe to it. Think the Ebers-Moll model nothing more.Now we have bipolar transistors, FET transistors, MOSFET transistors, yada yada.None of those up until fairly recently could be used to make an SSD.So, I guess, my point, is that the word transistor, alone, does not to most people, even engineers, imply non-volatile storage.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2020, 04:51:27 pm
content: It just occurred to me that magnetic core memory used the state of a magnetic field in a small element to store 1/0 bits, where flash memory uses the state of a stored charge to store 1/0 bits. So in a sense flash memory is the natural successor to core memory. The difference being that flash memory cells can be miniaturized to a far greater extent than magnetic core elements. Both kinds of memory use individually addressable cells in a static matrix.

author: iteratee
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2020, 05:11:10 pm
content: SRAM was just the first thing that popped into my head after the thought "store bit with transistor". I figured someone might whine about DRAM. A gate or junction is a capacitor in my mind. I figure DRAM must have a cap tied to the gate to let you survive a bit longer between tREFI but I dunno.

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2020, 07:11:02 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on July 23, 2020, 04:51:27 pmAlmost. Flash (and other floating-gate types) isn't bistable. Indeed, the fact that it can take a continuum of levels, is what makes multilevel Flash possible. Likewise, it leaks away over time (though the insulation isverygood, so this takes a long enough time to be practical, even for many billions of bits). FeRAM is the direct analog -- both are ferroic materials, one a magnet, the other an electret; both exhibit hysteresis. Not necessarily bistability, but the threshold to change, in response to an applied field, makes the state more permanent than otherwise. (Though I don't know offhand how the stability actually compares; note that FeRAM only works with large cells, 200nm or so I think, necessary for the long-range order of ferroics to manifest, and this makes them much lower density, and perhaps more vulnerable to upset events (cosmic rays, etc.) than otherwise?)Tim

author: tkamiya
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2020, 10:25:54 pm
content: I'm thinking it's just a poor translation of a more common term "solid state storage". Once upon a time, solid state meant transistors and diodes. Perhaps someone who is not technically savvy translated it from English to Japanese and back to whatever language you read?(I'm Japanese, so I use that as an example)It is not that unusual that translator has no understanding of the subject matter of the document.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2020, 11:58:13 pm
content: Quote from: iteratee on July 23, 2020, 05:11:10 pmIt's not uncommon for SRAM to be used to store data, in these applications a backup battery is used to maintain the memory. It isn't as common as it used to be but it's still out there and was once widespread.