RANT: Professionalism - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: at2marty
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 15, 2015, 11:21:38 pm
content: I need to obtain a qualification in my current job (CompTIA Security+). Fortunately, there are books available to me to read and understand the material. I have been reading the books, studying and learning the material. I have a notebook that I use to write down stuff that I need to remember or study further. Part of my study routine is to take my hand written notes, research them online, then make notes on my computer with references that I can go back to later if needed.I have been approached by several "senior" people in my workplace, some of them supervisors suggesting that I use some of the "cheats" available online. They tell me that this is what they used to pass the test.The "cheats" are basically the test questions, and it's suggested that I just memorize the answers. A couple even told me that they failed the test the first time and had to take it a second time.I have a real problem with that. The purpose of a test, especially to earn a certification or qualification is to see if the candidate has the knowledge required to hold the certification or qualification. I don't want to just "memorize answers to questions", I want to know the answers to the questions based on my knowledge. I refuse to just "memorize answers" to certain questions. If I pass the test and earn the certification, I want it to be because I know the material.It both amazes me and pisses me off that people senior to me in my workplace hold qualifications/certifications that they didn't earn. What really burns me up is that the workplace gives us the material to actually learn the content, yet these people chose to take the cheating (easy) route in order to obtain their credentials.It makes me wonder how many so-called "professionals" or "engineers" are out there in the workforce that are in their position based on their credentials obtained by simply "memorizing" answers to test questions.

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 15, 2015, 11:23:57 pm
content: If they're supposed to need those qualifications for their jobs, they need to be fired, out of a cannon.

author: kony
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 15, 2015, 11:35:07 pm
content: What if I told you, that most of the scholar systems boils down exactly to this (memorising just the right answers for test)?Totally twisted? Perhaps. But really not uncommon at all, unfortunatelly.

author: George_Race
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 15, 2015, 11:50:40 pm
content: You are an exceptional person, wanting to earn your certification the hard way, by actually passing your exam based on your education! Congratulations, you are one in a big bunch, and I admire your passion to do it the right way.I am in my 80th year and can still remember my wife carrying around my Gherardi Q & A Manual as I tried to learn all that was needed to get my First Class Phone ticket. At the end of the 7 hour written exam, the first time I got my Second Class. Went back in 6 months and got my First Class in about 4 hours of time in the tablet arm chair at the Detroit MI branch of the FCC. A couple of years later I got my Amateur Extra Class in the same room, passing my 20 WPM code test and several written exams.Within a few years there were books out that had the complete exam, question by question, and it became easy to memorize all the Q & A for the exams. Since that time, both the FCC Commercial and Amateur Radio exams have almost become a joke. All you need to do is listen on the Ham Bands and you can hear the results!Stick to your guns, and you will go far in your professional life. And to top it off, you WILL know what you are doing and saying is based on your study and experience. You will go far, and gain the respect of your peersAll the best,George - WB8BGY.

author: Wilksey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 16, 2015, 01:18:11 am
content: Unfortunately that is the way of the world!I have a friend who worked in a particular company, another of our friends went for an interview with the same company for a similar position (senior software engineering) and he basically told him what to memorise for the interview, and what questions would be asked as he was asked the same questions as on his interview, similar in principal.

author: Nerull
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 16, 2015, 03:30:21 am
content: Its CompTIA. It exists to make managers happy. The tests are completely irrelevant to anything you will ever do and are worse than useless - they're often wrong.

author: corrado33
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 16, 2015, 04:29:15 am
content: I love the ad at the bottom of the page says "Free (some test) exam prep with practice exams"Unfortunately this is the way education is now-a-day.The really scary part is that this is how high schoolers are taught to study for things like MCATs and GREs. (Those are our future doctors and scientists.)Generally, if a high schooler's parents have money, then can pass whatever type of exam they want. All they need to know is the questions asked and how they're supposed to answer them. That's not hard to find now-a-day.(BTW, I know this from first hand experience. I took an MCAT prep course online. They didn't teach you the material, they taught you how to make good "guesses." It was bullshit. They tell you things like "it's better to not answer questions you don't know because they won't count against you". That may not be true now, but it's one thing they told me. Crap that a normal person would never know.Another first hand experience for me. I went to school with a girl in college (university for you non-Americans) She was in our "honors" science courses, but consistently did the worst in the class. The CRIED on every exam and probably only passed because the teacher felt bad for her. She then dropped the honors courses the next year.She is now a dentist.I took the MCATs. I know how hard they were. I was at the top of those honors classes. I know there's no way in hell she passed the dentistry exams without a shit ton of "expensive" help. Turned out that her mom and dad were very wealthy.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 16, 2015, 09:07:38 am
content: If the test is that easy to pass and all the questions and answers can be found on line, then it's not a very respectable qualification.You probably won't learn much anyway, so just do what you need to do to pass. See it as a box ticking exercise.

author: Galenbo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 16, 2015, 12:46:56 pm
content: Quote from: at2marty on April 15, 2015, 11:21:38 pmYou should have a problem with the bad way this test is made, and that your company uses this worthless results.There are scientifically proven ways to develop questions for a test where this level of cheating is impossible.Quote from: at2marty on April 15, 2015, 11:21:38 pmIt's not up to you to decide what the purposes of such test are.It's up to you to take part or not, and to decide to cheat or study.Both ways have their advantages, honesty and rendability are not on the same side. Try to know what is appreciated more.Quote from: at2marty on April 15, 2015, 11:21:38 pmIt's a 2-dimensional thing here. You can also know the material and fail the test, there are 4 possibilities.But in the normal situation you will archieve 2 things: Receive a congratulation AND you know the material.That knowledge is maybe needed for the next test. I hope it's a better one.Quote from: at2marty on April 15, 2015, 11:21:38 pmIt's not simple to memorise aswers instead of understanding, especially if you are intense enthousiast and motivated. But sometimes you get into situations where you have no choice.That's where succesful managers are good at: Knowing fast what is important, estimate the minimum effort for it, spend the 98% rest of your time on other important things.

author: at2marty
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 16, 2015, 08:37:02 pm
content: Quote from: kony on April 15, 2015, 11:35:07 pmUnfortunately you are right. Steve Wozniak talked about that in an interview that I watched.Quote from: Galenbo on April 16, 2015, 12:46:56 pmIt's not my company's decision regarding the qualification. I am government contractor, and it was mandated by our government (DOD) to get certified to a certain level. I already posses the A+, Network+ and Linux+ certifications. Those were all pretty easy for me since I have been working with computers and Unix-like Operating Systems for the last 25 years or so. I'm pretty confident that I could pass the Security+ exam right now with no problem, but I would rather go over the material that the exam covers to be sure.Here is the really crazy part though. The bulk of my job is more electronics/electrical related rather than computer related. Sure the equipment is all computer driven, but the bulk of it is all I/O and peripherals. To get a better understanding of what I do, I maintain aircraft trainers/simulators. An example of what I typically do happened just today. A digital input wasn't working correctly (a switch on the aircraft console). I looked at the drawings, did some troubleshooting and narrowed it down to a faulty relay on a circuit board. I replaced the relay and got the system working again. Now how does having the above qualifications show that I have the knowledge and capability to do that?There is an answer to that, but I can't really expand on that.That being said though, if it's something that I need to do to keep my job, I'll do it. My rant was mainly because of my personality I guess. I was always taught to learn the material, take a test and get graded on what I learned. Simply memorizing answers to questions is not learning.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 16, 2015, 08:49:25 pm
content: One value of memorizing the test answers is that you are then using the answer they want to hear, which is at least occasionally different from the correct answer. I personally endorse starting by learning the material so that you won't make a fool of yourself using your credential (and so you will know your limitations), and then reviewing the questions and answers. By knowing the material first you will quickly recognize the bloopers and ambiguous situations where you might go wrong based on your knowledge. You only have to memorize these few oddities.

author: Neganur
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 16, 2015, 09:48:48 pm
content: Unfortunately tests are made like this. And some of the questions are also more about that you read the task properly than the actual content: i.e. 3 questions are "which answer is correct" the following one "which statement is false" etc. Do yourself the favour and use the internet material to train yourself to be able to answer the questions quickly. It is not cheating if you use it to drill your memory.Consider it your course material. The matter (what the course is about) is not a secret and certain problems are always the same pattern. It's just the nature of things. At universities it is not uncommon to use last years' exam as exercise exam. So nothing stops you from learning those by heart - of course numbers will change but methods or general concepts don't and there is no shame in learning methods by heart.

author: at2marty
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 16, 2015, 10:42:14 pm
content: What ever happened to actuallylearning the materialrather than learninghow to take a test? I must be getting old because I have always thought that a test was about seeing if you know the subject.

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 16, 2015, 10:57:46 pm
content: Quote from: at2marty on April 16, 2015, 10:42:14 pmWhere there is money, there is going to be cheaters to cheating to get the money.In Atlanta, Georgia (the US State, not the country) 10 teachers (and or admin staff) were convicted of changing student answers so the student get a higher score -- which in turn get them better salary. This scheme according to news report involved 200-300, just this 10 got caught with an easily provable case. 9 are sentenced to jail time.That said, some kind of certification is not necessarily a bad thing. You want to know "the guy designing the bridge" isn't because he is just a classmate of the wife of the one in charge. You want to know the guy can really do the job.

author: kony
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 16, 2015, 11:19:39 pm
content: Quote from: at2marty on April 16, 2015, 10:42:14 pmNot in times, where almost a college diploma becomes a meaningless paper you can just put on your wall or wrap your lunch in...So many times I questioned myself, if is it my knowledge and ability to cope with some problem tested, or just capacity of my short-term memory. And quite often the answer was memory.Also, students in almost all cases blindly follow only grades, not knowledge - and you can be sure they will use the easiest approach possible (well, easiest if you have good memory). Most of them will realise it too late. And when there is no self-interest in topic of your study, then too bad.And with things like grades inflation and ever vanishing common sense and applied logic in place, I call the scholar system generally broken.BTW: The most talented self-taughts I know of actually in several cases dropped willingly from college just for the reasons stated above. It is also interesting, that many of them are now involved in science and technology propagation (and making better resources for newly incomming self-taughts).Fortunatelly for us, in the end - it is the "show what you can do" that counts.

author: Neganur
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 16, 2015, 11:29:40 pm
content: I share your opinion about those exams. But look at it from this perspective: you are not gaining anything by not taking advantage of the situation.You only lose. Why would you willingly get a potentially worse grade (not necessarily ofc!) than someone who is really just learning the questions by heart?This is a very good example where 'being honest' gets you nothing. You're not getting a medal.Not sure how people around the world get their driver's license, but in Germany there's a catalogue of multiple choice questions. Out of this pool of lets say 4000 questions you get 50 for your exam, and you have all the time in the world to prepare and practice those 4000 questions. Is that cheating?Is there not also a similar catalogue of questions for HAM licenses?

author: kony
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 16, 2015, 11:38:40 pm
content: Quote from: Neganur on April 16, 2015, 11:29:40 pmIf this was pointed to me, then honestly I don't give a damn. Give me whatever grade to pass - if I don't care about that subject, then i don't care, if I do, I'll study it most likely much more deeper than what is required for me - and grades will most likely reflect that (as a side product).

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2015, 12:02:47 am
content: That white karate garment and the black belt around the waist of the wearer tells you right off the bat that he can probably out-punch an average person of similar built. Probably.Grades and certificates both put a gauge on expected abilities of the grade/certificate holder.Someone like Bruce Lee, the legend that he was, he would probably out punch a typical black-belt karate guy. But with the Chinese ku-fu stuff, they don't wear something to advertise nor do they quantify. So, if you need to pick a wing-man to go with you to a bar fight, you have a surer bet taking the black-belt guy as your wing man than the other Chinese guy who may know nothing about holding fist let alone punch.Employers and contractor are in the same shoes. They are taking you on without knowing much about you, so a certification while not always indicative, is at least something.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2015, 02:39:34 am
content: Quote from: at2marty on April 16, 2015, 10:42:14 pmThat's the intention but like most metrics, people find unintended ways to maximize the score. That's life.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2015, 03:11:27 am
content: Quote from: c4757p on April 15, 2015, 11:23:57 pmPREFERREBLY AFTER SETTING THEM ON FIRE FIRST.

author: pickle9000
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2015, 03:20:56 am
content: Quote from: free_electron on April 17, 2015, 03:11:27 amInto a brick wall.

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2015, 04:08:47 am
content: Quote from: pickle9000 on April 17, 2015, 03:20:56 amI like how you guys think!

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2015, 04:39:46 am
content: Not a brick wall, but a concrete wall built to military specs. One part gravel, one part sand, one part high strength cement, with steel reinforcing every 15cm buried at 15cm under the surface. I have seen that survive unscathed, the vehicle collapsed to half it's length.

author: magetoo
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2015, 06:17:52 am
content: Quote from: Hero999 on April 16, 2015, 09:07:38 amIt is almost as if the business model is cranking out as many certifications as possible (and making as much money as possible), not testing knowledge.

author: con-f-use
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 17, 2015, 07:37:01 am
content: Well I've done alot of useless, very specific tests that did not actually test my qualifications but rather my ability to memorize unimportant details. If I encounter a test that has that problem, I weasel my way around it. If I think its a sensible test, and I might actually learn something useful that will prevail in my brain, I study in a similar fashion as you do. It don't know which kind of test yours was, but I can understand both approaches. It depends on the circumstances. I don't want to waste my time on useless stuff that is "required" by some authority but has nothing to do with what I do or want to do in the future.When I started to work at my University, they made us take a teaching class. It was basically just "a hundred ways to pin colored paper to a whiteboard". They asked us about method 58 and 74 in the test. Does that make me a better teacher? Not to speak of endless varieties of IT training, safety qualifications and public speaking drills.It's not unprofessional to be efficient and there is a lot of qualification testing that just qualifies you to sit in a chair. But I'm assuming your qualification test was actually important, so fire their burning asses into solid brick.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2015, 11:07:37 am
content: Quote from: magetoo on April 17, 2015, 06:17:52 amThat's often the case.If someone is required to take the test by their employer, they should just do whatever it takes to get the best score because that's what they're being paid for. Of course they can raise their concerns with their employer, if they want to but at the end of the day, their boss has the final say.

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2015, 01:48:38 pm
content: It's sad, but it's the way it is. You even can't rely on certifications which aren't easy to achieve and also include lab tests, like CCIE for example. At one ISP we had a dedicated CCIE assigned by Cisco to support the network engineering team. One day I was asked if I could have a look at a rather simple task and in about an hour and a half the job was done. Later on a colleague told me that the CCIE worked on the same task for two days and didn't accomplish anything. At another ISP I re-engineered the backbone network originally designed by a Juniper engineer who had all their certifications. Guess what, it was not the prettiest design, much room for improvements. I'm not saying that there aren't good CCIEs or whatever around, but it's the person and not the certification you can rely on. The certification gives some indication of some knowledge, but nothing more. Unfortunately a lot of people, expecially in HR, haven't learned that yet.

author: smjcuk
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2015, 02:24:52 pm
content: Quote from: madires on April 17, 2015, 01:48:38 pmThat's about right. Microsoft certs are even worse. There's a sharp divide in our company with respect to can do and can't do. This correlates almost 1:1 with certifications. The cants are the certified people almost universally.Its down to an differing approach to things which I suppose could be classified as both professionalism and differing motivations for working. If your motivation is purely hard cash, you tend to trade off certification investments. For the rest of us, cash is a side effect of having fun.Also you can't tell a shit person in an interview; you have to hire them and work with them for a bit before that conclusion can be made.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2015, 04:07:24 pm
content: Quote from: SeanB on April 17, 2015, 04:39:46 ami can see the youtube video. flaming idiot shot out of cannon into military grade wall..that should get a few million hits.too bad we can't link the youtube click to the firing of the cannon.that way the title would read : click here to shoot a flaming idiot out of a cannon into a concrete wall.Every time someone looks at the video the cannon fires the aforementioned flaming idiot.that would give a whole new meaning to 'live videostream' ...

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2015, 04:47:42 pm
content: The driver survived the impact.............. His passenger did not.Though he did not survive more than a few minutes more. The fire brigade got there, and he was still breathing. Before they could figure out how to get him and the entire steering column, which was pushed through him, out as a unit he died. They placed that wreck on the main road intersection for about 3 months as a warning not to speed and not to drive drunk.The vehicle left an imprint of the front grille, complete with an image of the number plate, in the paint on the wall, as a lighter image against the drab brown paint. the gate guard was rather shocked by the accident. He saw the lights come over the hill 1km away, picked up his rifle and turned towards the door. then the impact, and he picked up the phone to report it as opposed to pressing the panic button, which would have brought an entirely different response.

author: Smokey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2015, 07:57:13 pm
content: If you have open access to the questions on a test (ie you didn't steal them) then you would be a fool not to study those exact questions. Seriously. It has nothing to do with professionalism. When you took your drivers test at the DMV, did you refuse to look at the practice tests there too? What are you supposed to do, go back to traffic studies and legal cases and derive all the driving laws that way?A person is either terrible at their job and the only way they will ever be considered for employment is based on their certs, or they are competent and the certs are mostly a waste of their time.

author: at2marty
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2015, 08:21:25 pm
content: Quote from: Smokey on April 17, 2015, 07:57:13 pmI have to disagree with that. Taking a practice quiz or exam is one thing, but taking a "practice test" that I knowis the testis another. The book that I am studying has practice quizzes at the end of each chapter. After reading/studying a chapter, I'll wait a couple of days, refer to my notes and take the quiz to gauge where I'm at and see if there are topics that I might need to research further.Call me silly or whatever, but I want to gain the knowledge required to pass the test, regardless of whether or not it pertains to what I actually do. It's not about just passing a test or getting a cert, it's all about actually learning the material.I don't know if it's because I'm an "older" guy, or if it's because maybe I'm kind of "wired differently". I view most tests as challenges, and I want to overcome the challenge of being able to not only pass the test, but also do my best to ACE the test based on my knowledge.

author: Smokey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2015, 08:46:51 pm
content: About testing specifically:If, as you say, the test is actually a good measure of your understanding of some subject then knowing the answers to the test questions implies you have understanding of the subject. It doesn't matter how you got those answers, by that definition passing the test = understanding. Either that or the test doesn't mean as much. If they wanted you to have a deeper understanding then they would have all that material on the test, but they don't.Generally:A good rule that I've always found to be true, so far at least, is that as long as you know where to look something up you shouldn't spend the time to memorize every detail. That said there is an exception of stuff you do ALL THE TIME, but that's a really small subset of everything you can possibly know. Being able to mentally throw up enough material to pass a test isn't understanding anything. You are never going to be able to hold the depth or breadth that a text book (or the internet) can hold so your memory will always be inferior. As a working engineer you will never be asked on the spot to come up with a complete solution by yourself without any resources. That just doesn't happen, and if it did that company isn't long to live. "I'm not sure, I'll get back to you on that", is a perfectly valid response to pretty much any engineering question, which gives you time to go look stuff up and give the right (and complete) answer with confidence.I think the part of this thread that tweaks me is the fact that it's trying to say it's unprofessional to use available resources to complete a task. If you have to get something done you use all the resources available every time. Only a terrible engineer artificially limits their resources for anything and they are the ones being unprofessional since it wastes your and your companies time. Passing tests is in no way a measure of how well someone will perform in the real world and the real world is the only thing that matters anyway.

author: Bassman59
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2015, 08:54:53 pm
content: After reading through this entire thread, I have to ask: what does everyone think of the standardized tests that are being pushed on school kids these days?

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2015, 08:57:38 pm
content: Quote from: Smokey on April 17, 2015, 07:57:13 pmI am afraid I may disagree with you. It depends on if the test is supposed to be available to test-candidates. Similar to if it is an open-book exam or a close-book exam.Assuming access is not suppose to be available. then regardless of whether the test was stolen and by whom, looking at it is wrong. Using such unauthorized access to the test for personal gain (better score) increases the degree of the wrongness.Not to say I always succeed in adherence to my own standard, but I firmly believe the saying: "Good character is to do the right thing when you know no one is looking and no one will ever know."If you manage a guy, would you want to the guy to "break the rules a little" if that means he got the sale, helping himself and help your department reaches sales quota? Very tempting, but that is a slippery rope.We may not be able to always withstand the temptation of the gain. I cheat a little, I lie a little, but I am not going to say those were good and smart moves. Those gains should come with regret and sense of guilt. If not, one lost one's compass in life.

author: Smokey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2015, 09:22:20 pm
content: I specifically stated that my post was assuming you didn't steal the test questions. The OP said the questions were available. His arguments weren't about how you came to posses the questions, but that just having any access to the test questions AT ALL is unprofessional. That is silly.If the questions are available online then they are available to all the "test-candidates". Not being able to search the internet is not an excuse to not having the questions. If the organization giving the test did not want the questions available but continues to give the same test after the questions become available, then that is the only unprofessional and unethical (and lazy) thing going on here. Once again, the most professional thing you can do is (ethically) use all available resources to complete a task. I had assumed the (ethically) part before, but I guess I have to say that explicitly.

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2015, 09:29:41 pm
content: Quote from: Smokey on April 17, 2015, 09:22:20 pmSmokey,Just to make sure you don't think I am attacking your character...That is why I said (quote from my reply with bold added now) "I am afraid Imaydisagree with you.It depends on if the test is supposed to be available to test-candidates. Similar to if it is an open-book exam or a close-book exam.Assuming access is not suppose to be available..."I understand he said on the web. It was unclear whether it was suppose to be or not. It could be someone posted an unauthorized copy.

author: Smokey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2015, 09:53:46 pm
content: All good. I'm just ranting. It's a slow news day.

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2015, 10:25:52 pm
content: Quote from: Bassman59 on April 17, 2015, 08:54:53 pmBassman59,You pressed my hot button!!!Two part answer: Standardized test for kids is a good thing, but NOT the tests they are pushing today. I have nothing good to say about the new PSAT and the new SAT. The same can be said for PARCC, the State tests made in the same form of the new SAT/PSAT under Common Core - Horrible. Common Core was formerly called "Race to the Top". (Called "Race to the Middle" by the Pioneer Institute, a Boston public policy "Think Tank". I think they were too kind in not calling it "Race to the Bottom".)According to Washington Post, only 26 states in 2010 aligned to common core PARCC. With only 50 states in the USA, 26 is hardly common. The article cites "now the consortium has fewer than a dozen states...""Mississippi withdrawing from Common Core PARCC consortium" By Valerie Strauss January 16http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/answer-sheet/wp/2015/01/16/mississippi-withdrawing-from-common-core-parcc-consortium/Thenew SAT and the new PSAT are horrible. Mathematics and science should be objective, not subjective. Furthermore, a test's goal is to rate the student on knowledge and not to make sure more student passes. The role of ensuring more students passes the test rest with the teacher. It is not the role of the test designer.I have a high-school age daughter. I review all available material I can get my hands on. I wrote the principal to excuse my daughter from the PARCC test.News paper reports that many parents refuse the test because it is hard. To dispute that, I mustshare more information than I normally would: My daughter already took SAT twice before age 13. Each time she exceed thescores of college bound seniors. New Jersey's average SAT is 1510. She was 1800's first SAT, and 1900's second SAT at age 12. She achieved High Honors at Johns Hopkins University Center for Talented Youth (CTY). Less than one in three at CTY achieve high honors and she got it with both language (read/writing) and math.So, "hard" tests is hardly an issue; besides, the tests does not count anyway (read on). I encourage her to take every opportunity for tests, but not in this case. These new SAT and new PSAT are not tests.In my opinion based on reviewing the practice test available on line, they are not tests, instead, they are psychological evaluations using math. And when even math is that bad, you think about how much worst is language and history.--- this was the actual letter send with personal and school information XXX out ---Dear XXXXX,I am the father of XXXXX, a tenth grade student at XXXXX High School. This letter is in reference to the PARCC tests this week.At the current state of readiness of the PARCC tests, the New Jersey Assembly saw fit to pass the bill to delay PARCC requirement by three years. However, at this time, they are still working on the actual bill(s) regarding non-participation. With the test being this week, there is little time remaining for the legislature to come to resolution. The lack of clear policy at the DOE on non-participation, and the lack of information on PARCC at (xxxxx school's) web site leave parents like me with little guidance.While PARCC may in the future become a strong and welcome indicator to student performance, however at its current state of disorganization and confusion, it is clear that PARCC is not yet ready for prime time. I am concerned that rather than being an indicator of performance, instead, it may be a source of confusion to the student, and a de-motivator for the student.While the legislature continues its work on pulling back from PARCC and/or Common Core, but we are all aware of the speed of politics. I have little confidence that additional clarification will come out of Trenton this week. I must therefore act to protect the interest of my daughter. I have therefore instructed XXXXX (my daughter's name) to refuse to take the PARCC test(s).I hope XXXXX (the school's name) understands the well meaning motives of this decision to refuse the tests. I hope arrangements have been made for students like XXXXX who will not participate: so they are not singled out for embarrassment or discomfort. I understand and I rely on your devotion to the students to ensure that this event will be as uneventful as possible. I can be reached at (123) 456-7890 or email at XXXXX.Thank you and sincerely,Rick & XXXXXX LawParents of XXXXXX

author: Smokey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2015, 11:19:31 pm
content: Quote from: Rick Law on April 17, 2015, 10:25:52 pmEven if you named your daughter after your wife, "XXXXXX Law" is a pretty unique name! I guess she still gets to line up before "YYYYY Jones" and "ZZZZZ Smith"

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2015, 11:25:38 pm
content: Quote from: Smokey on April 17, 2015, 11:19:31 pmI am trying to keep up with the Jones...

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 18, 2015, 12:08:25 am
content: In this thread you can see the elements of the battle over standardized tests."Why memorize anything if you can look it up""Teaching the test"If large scale memorization is too difficult, no one can pass a standardized test without "teaching the test". Fifty to one hundred years ago in the United States there were no serious complaints about mass memorization. Most can with enough effort. If you couldn't you just weren't consider material for the educated classes. Then came variations on education which emphasized creativity, self worth, and diminished the importance of memorization. Most professional educators will tell you that the newer methods are better, developing children who are more able to think for themselves. That may be true, but somehow the old system produced some pretty good thinkers also.I personally think that there is great benefit to having a large mental toolbox to work with. You can't know that something is applicable to the problem at hand until it is in your head. If you "just go look it up" you may never figure out the need to consider some factor because it isn't mentioned in your search path. It is also faster to retrieve something from your head than it is from the internet, and much faster than retrieval from a library or technical journal.For a mundane example. Youth of today have no idea if they are receiving correct change. They never memorized arithmetic, and no one would think of looking up how to do it each time they receive change. The result is they just stuff it in their pocket, throw it away - or throw the receipt away if it is a debit card or credit purchase.So after that tirade, yes I am for standardized tests, along with a comprehensive education system that doesn't require teaching the test to get passing results. Both are possible. Many baby boomers took Ohio standard tests (something like that name, my memory has faded over 50 years), and most passed.