New EU cheap manufacturer - AISLER - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: elektronchika
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2022, 10:41:17 am
content: Hi,I just found through PCB Shopper a new to me company in EU -AISLER. Has anybody used it and what is the feedback? It looks to me like they are trying to be JLC PCB in EU...Thanks!

author: Doctorandus_P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2022, 11:00:22 am
content: A three step graphical tutorial:[ Specified attachment is not available ]

author: jfiresto
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2022, 11:08:10 am
content: My experience has been mixed. About a quarter of my unambitious jobs need to be redone, including the last two that they have not. Their customer service has been unpredictable and ranged from good to non-existent.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2022, 11:57:36 am
content: Quote from: elektronchika on December 19, 2022, 10:41:17 amForget about Aisler. They can't even process gerber files.

author: m98
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2022, 01:16:54 pm
content: Don't rely on them, my last order came over a month late and I had to pay €€€ for express service at another manufacturer to get the prototype ready in time...

author: jfiresto
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2022, 02:19:58 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on December 19, 2022, 11:57:36 amAisler has always only gotten zipped Gerbers from me. I think they can process them – just with a bit of stochastic noise between the data and the physical boards. For example, the Gerbers will specify four un-plated mounting holes, and one comes out plated for no reason that you can recover from the code. Aisler are the only ones who have done that in my twenty some years of buying pooled PCBs.

author: Warhawk
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2022, 05:41:12 pm
content: Quote from: elektronchika on December 19, 2022, 10:41:17 amYes, I do use them regularly also for business. My colleagues have had some umplesant experiences. I may have been lucky but out of about 30 orders I have never gotten something wrong. I also stick with quite moderate design rules (28/12mil vias, 10-8mil traces, I go down to 6 when I need to). It is my favorite PCB supplier. I am happy they are based in EU.

author: JPortici
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2022, 07:57:53 pm
content: I used them in 2020 for a couple of PCBs when i couldn't get any from china.Never used them for assembly because it seemed too much effort to set up / charged too much.Nice boards, but the overall experience was meh, I still prefer JLC for prototypesI appreciate what they're trying to do but all the marketing is a bit too cringe for my taste

author: Warhawk
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2022, 11:22:55 am
content: Just FYI, I quoted assembling for a small PCB and it was 1/3rd of what we usually pay to other supplier here in Germany. Asigning parts on the web and having a posibility to source them with our development silicon makes it attractive. We also tried to get some PCBs assembled in China but the experience was horendous. Even our Chinese colleague complained. I really have trust issues with assembling in China. I want to make sure that if I want to have X7R panasonic caps on the PCB, I get them.

author: woody
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2022, 01:40:38 pm
content: I use Aisler since a couple of years for bare PCB's and for assembly.My experience with bare PCB's is good. What you see is what you get, not too expensive, easy, fast, never had any problems.My experience with assembled PCB's is a bit mixed; sometimes I cannot find a flaw in a series of a 100 PCB's and the next time half of the boards in a series of 24 have components that are shoddily soldered or misplaced, with shorted pins (admitted, with some 2.5x2.5mm 9-pin DFN packages) while the other half is perfect. These problems seem to arise because they use many different outfits to do their assembly; some are better than others.On the upside, Aisler is a German company that has their work for Europe done in Europe. They invoice after shipping. They are reachable by phone which I like very much. They react to email and discussing a board or complaining about their quality control seems to be taken seriously. And indeed, as @warhawk above already mentioned, you can send them unobtainable parts that you have in your own stock and their system for that actually works ok.YMMV, as even MMV, but I still like using them.

author: Uky
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2022, 09:26:13 am
content: Approached AISLER regarding a possible order about a year ago.Wanted to submit standard Gerber 274X generated by Cadence.Never got an intelligible answer.Gave up.

author: Doctorandus_P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 25, 2022, 08:17:20 pm
content: I'm not exactly sure what is going on with Aisler.There are plenty of customers who have good to reasonable experiences, but I also see a relatively big amount of complaints.I believe they are a legit company and doing their best, but it's also a relatively small company (they don't have their own production) and are over stressed.Prices from Aisler are a bit more expensive than the average "asian PCB baker", but for an EU company they are quite cheap for low quantities.I have not made a PCB with them, but I am biased towards giving them some slack because they are the biggest KiCad sponsor (Oshpark is also a significant KiCad sponsor).

author: Warhawk
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2022, 11:17:01 am
content: Quote from: Doctorandus_P on December 25, 2022, 08:17:20 pmI understand it the way they have a very optimized automated process without a CAM operator. You have to folow it which is the price for the low cost production. As soon as you deviate from what they do (format, design rules) you're asking for a trouble.Btw everyone can compare Aisler with e.g. Betalayout DE. Also a pool service, also manufactured in EU. Better support, higher price.Aisler allows me to get affordable PCBs for my hobby and also for simple prototypes at work (DC-DC converters, small development boards, reference designs, proof-of-the-concept) without going to China.

author: Doctorandus_P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2022, 01:14:56 pm
content: Aisler also has 4 vacancies, including two for software engineers.https://about.aisler.net/jobs.htmlThis also seems to confirm they have some "growing pains" but are doing the best they can.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2022, 04:43:05 pm
content: Quote from: Warhawk on December 26, 2022, 11:17:01 amBut in the end you'll need a person to look at the design files & BOM to see if the components are the right ones and so on. Recently I went to quite a bit of trouble with a professional low volume prototyping service because they imported the BOM wrong and thus missed several low tempco. 0.1% resistors for which they used regular resistors. I'm extremely happy I caught their mistake but I could have looked passed it and send out inferior products to my customer. Bottom line: as a prototype service you can use the customer to do final checks but that is not why I'm paying someone to do the assembly for me!Basically Aisler doesn't want to deal with Gerber files; only with design files. Which also leads to the question whether you want to handover the design files. You don't know where they end up. As others already noticed, Aisler isn't doing any production themselves. They just shove files to an assembler that happens to have some spare time. This also complicates things when something goes wrong. You won't be talking to someone who knows about electronics assembly and/or what is wrong specifically in case of problems.

author: Uky
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2022, 05:09:40 pm
content: The decision about not wanting to accept gerber 274X is to some extent understandable. But competitors like eg. JLPCB does that perfectly as longas the customer adhers to their naming conventions. JLPCB's web-based Gerber viewer is excellent. You get what you see and you are the judgeas to if the result is acceptable.If AISLER now does not accept Gerbers, why don't they then accept ODB++ or the other open standard format IPC-2581?...

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2022, 05:44:33 pm
content: Quote from: Uky on December 27, 2022, 05:09:40 pmActually, JLCPCb doesn't really care about their naming convention. Just as long as it is clear what is what. If there is something like, top, bot(tom), innerX, silk, paste, outline, drill in the filename, it will be OK. For multilayers it is a good habit to put numbers in the copper layers (top layer = 1).ODB++ makes sense as a package format for the layout, drill and placement but does not include full BOM data.

author: JPortici
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2022, 06:04:47 am
content: FYI you CAN use gerbers for pcb manufacturing, that exactly how i ordered from them (and i tried yesterday just to be sure it's still supported). But not for assemblyAlso, Diptrace not supported for assembly for some reason (probably their subcontractors don't handle it?).Not that i would ever give the project files to a third party i don't trust.Quote from: nctnico on December 27, 2022, 05:44:33 pmBOM has to be converted to their internal format anyway, using their internal partnumbers.JLCPCB make us do it which is one of the reasons the service is so fast

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2022, 06:09:54 am
content: Quote from: Doctorandus_P on December 26, 2022, 01:14:56 pmUnfortunately they have suffered from those growing pains for three years now. There are older discussions on the forum, e.g. here:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/eda/has-anyone-used-aisler-net/.Personally, I have tried Aisler several times because I would have preferred a good vendor in Europe, but have gone back to JLCPCB entirely.Quote from: ebastler on May 09, 2020, 08:30:06 pm

author: Warhawk
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2022, 09:04:58 pm
content: I believe this still works, doesn't it?https://community.aisler.net/t/traditional-gerber/99Regarding sharing the files - well, if you use the cheapest possible pool service in Europe you probably do not do a design for ESA's lunar vehicle.BTW: For corporate prototyping, we also use state of the art, high-end PCB vendors from the US as well as from Germany. We have issues with wrong assembly quite often.

author: Uky
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 29, 2022, 02:57:54 pm
content: The information presented above was new to me. As I value a possibility to use a european manufacturer very much,I will approach Aisler again next time with design files following their naming conventions. (In Gerber...)

author: thinkfat
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 29, 2022, 04:47:43 pm
content: I have used Aisler in the past, for PCBs, not yet for assembly. The "HD" service boards were always good, but I had a few precision issues with drill holes being offset against copper layers and solder mask. Nothing to make the PCB unusable, though. The "Blitz" service is really fast, but has a few annoying limitations. No internal slots is my main grief, as this also excludes oblong holes - pretty common in all kinds of PCB connectors (DC barrel jacks, many USB receptacles, ...). Contact with their support has always been good.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 29, 2022, 04:55:34 pm
content: Ordered from the once, result was OK. However their support is nonexistent. Sent questions on their website and to their email, never got an answer. Even cheapest Chinese fabs always reply.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 01, 2023, 08:51:24 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on December 29, 2022, 04:55:34 pmGood to know. Are we sure they do not even subcontract to asian companies? Are they using only european facilities? (Which if so are probably in the countries where labour is cheapest such as Hungary or Romania?)

author: Warhawk
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 02, 2023, 08:29:46 am
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on January 01, 2023, 08:51:24 pmAFAIK they do not subcontract asian companies. They used to have an overview where they make what. I can not find it now. I remember some PCBs were made in Czechia, the rest in Germany.Edit: It seems now they do everything in Germanyhttps://community.aisler.net/t/pcb-specifications/101

author: Uky
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2023, 12:28:01 pm
content: Yesterday I submitted a dual layer PCB to AISLER after having created an account and a set ofGerber/Drill files according the the required naming/precision standard.The job was accepted. Pricing was competitive and ordering process went smooth.However: Many other board fabricators have moved to accept Gerbers in metric formats long time ago.I have not designed using inch- or mill- for 15 years or even more. But AISLER accepted only Gerbersin Inch, 2.4 format.But having a european manufacturer who also cares for small/hobby customers is invaluable!

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2023, 07:46:11 pm
content: Quote from: Uky on January 15, 2023, 12:28:01 pmBut a european manufacturer that doesn't accept metric?

author: thinkfat
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 16, 2023, 07:14:54 am
content: AISLER is not a manufacturer. They're a panel aggregation service. They partner with actual manufacturers and probably, Inch 2.4 is the common denominator every partner accepts.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 16, 2023, 07:07:01 pm
content: Quote from: thinkfat on January 16, 2023, 07:14:54 amBut I was told just above that all their partners are european too. Anyway.