Why is Dyson Head Office being re-located to Singapore? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: ocset
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 22, 2019, 07:44:41 pm
content: Is it being Sold to a Far Eastern Buyer?Which other Global companies have their head office in a country where they are not domiciled?I dont think any.Surely, selling is the only reason for this move?https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-46962093Do any of the folllowing companies have a head office "overseas" from the home country?...BMW, Mercedes, Panasoni, LG, GE, Ford...etc etc.....It looks to me as if Dyson is getting sold.How can this be allowed?I bet if BMW owner tried to sell BMW out of Germany , they would be stopped, ditto any other global company.

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 22, 2019, 08:37:16 pm
content: Asia is "pro-business" compared to the UK or Canada, for example. I'm talking about taxes, engineering talent, financing etc.I think the move is to develop autonomous electric cars- although Singapore does not manufacture cars.Set up shop where you are supported and don't have a wishy-wash government constipated with their Brexit strategy."Dyson supported Britain’s campaign to leave the European Union, citing labor laws which he said force him to hire engineers from the trading bloc instead of better qualified equivalents from, for example, Asia.""Dyson has also made his irritation with British corporate governance rules known before. Last year, he complained about the U.K. requirement that closely held companies file publicly available accounts – a regulation that hands an advantage to overseas rivals, he told the Financial Times in an interview."

author: Wolfgang
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 22, 2019, 11:13:23 pm
content: ... maybe I am too conservative, but I dislike all Dyson stuff. The worst and unhygienic hand dryer on the planet, vacuum cleaners that look like they can fly to the moon but are weak like hell, all kinds of design gadgets but no Frank LLoyd Wright (form follows function).

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 22, 2019, 11:14:04 pm
content: Since Dyson is only moving 2 company officers, this has to be done to ensure market access to the EU after Brexit - regardless of what the company says. Dyson says no but there might be some tax advantages,Additionally, I would rather work in SIngapore than London any day of the week. I lived there for a while and I love the place!

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 23, 2019, 12:32:26 am
content: Quote from: treez on January 22, 2019, 07:44:41 pmOh really? I'm not sure your eyes are really open then.Do you remember what happened to Jaguar maybe? Would you say it was better or worse than it would be if Dyson was sold? Seriously?Just a recent example:https://www.dw.com/en/berlin-approves-kuka-sale-to-midea/a-19479483Foreign investors have been buying european companies at an impressive rate. Even strategic companies. China and the US come first, but they are not the only ones either.

author: CJay
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 23, 2019, 09:16:19 am
content: 1. Tax reasons possibly although Singapore isn't much lower than the UK, the UK loses out because Dyson's tax won't be paid here.2. (the most important) Continued, tariff free access to the EU markets, it's absolutely no coincidence that they're moving there shortly after Singapore signed an EU trade deal.Dyson is a weapons grade, brexit elite hypocrite.

author: raptor1956
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 23, 2019, 07:04:49 pm
content: Companies go where the cost is lower and if there's an increased market potential to sell there -- this is a paradigm that's been in vogue for 50 years or more and since the 1990's has taken off as trade deals make it ever more desirable to abandon one country for another.Just what exactly Dyson is up to I don't know, but there's little reason to doubt the factors mentioned are the main reasons.Up through the mid 70's the workers earned a share of the productivity gains that have been ongoing since the start of the industrial revolution. By the mid 70's, however, that deal was broken and the working class wages flatlined at that point and have remained flat to down ever since.https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:US_productivity_and_real_wages.jpgThe economic era we live in is defined by the power that capital (wealth) has to shape policy in there favor. At it's simplest, if the leisure class can move production to places with cheaper labor and less investment in workplace safety and environmental controls the products and services sold will be less expensive and a greater share of the sale value is given to them -- the leisure class. Sometimes the move is not to the absolutely least expensive place but to somewhere in between -- somewhere where there's sufficient talent at a lower total cost.Brian

author: ocset
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 23, 2019, 08:26:05 pm
content: Thanks All,Its strange though, that there are no other examples of other companies moving their "head office" to a different country than the country of origin/domicile.I mean Nissan has a factory in Sunderland, but Nissan head office didnt move to sunderland....the Nissan head office is still in Japan.(as you know im not knocking dyson, i like the "stick" vacuum cleaner, and the "dunk-'em-once hand dryer....my workplace had some dyson "sticks", and i abused one badly one evening as a test for it...but it passed my "test" with flying colors.)

author: Towger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 23, 2019, 10:16:34 pm
content: Simply but Brexit. James compained for it, but there are more unexpected side effects.For example, I was informed today that in the event of a hard Brexit companies operating here, but with an parent company incorporated in the UK will no longer be able to operate here. To continue in business they will need to incorporate new a company within the EU and effectively re-employee the staff within the new parent or a local sub company of it. This is a huge paper pushing exercise, which would normally take many months/years of legal planning...

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 23, 2019, 10:37:12 pm
content: "Future proofing" was what he said.Quote from: treez on January 22, 2019, 07:44:41 pmIt doesn't work like that. Owners are given a lot of latitude to do whatever they want.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 23, 2019, 10:54:40 pm
content: Dyson has been moving step by step to Singapore for years. Now, with their electric car activities committed to being entirely in Singapore, it make sense for them to move their HQ there and abandon the UK entirely over the next few years.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 23, 2019, 11:20:17 pm
content: I really doubt if they would 'abandon' the UK.Quote from: coppice on January 23, 2019, 10:54:40 pm

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 23, 2019, 11:50:36 pm
content: Quote from: cdev on January 23, 2019, 11:20:17 pmWhy not? What useful purpose does the UK serve them now? Despite campaigning for brexit, Dyson himself has clearly never had any commitment to the UK.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 24, 2019, 12:25:03 am
content: "Disneyland with the death penalty" (popular nickname for Singapore)If Dyson was born and grew up in the UK, it's his homeland, doesn't that count for something?

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 24, 2019, 08:32:13 am
content: Quote from: treez on January 23, 2019, 08:26:05 pmOh, sweet, naïve treez...Moving the company’s “headquarters” to a tax shelter is anextremelycommon thing. Hundreds of companies are “headquartered” in Zug, Switzerland alone with nothing more than a mailbox, so as to reduce taxes. A great example of this is Walgreens (the Boots pharmacy of USA). There’s never been a Walgreens in Switzerland and likely never will be. But their tax home is in Zug.There are entire economies based on being tax shelters (like the Cayman Islands).And that’s just tax shelters. Companies do occasionally move to a different country altogether, especially very large companies that are really on the verge of becoming multinational.

author: Electro Detective
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 24, 2019, 09:27:41 am
content: Quote from: Wolfgang on January 22, 2019, 11:13:23 pmLOLThey look and work great out of the box, but once that honeymoon period is over... and the credit card statement arrivesthey work as well as any other brand or knockoff at a fraction of the price,and need maintenance like any vacuum cleaner doesto restore performance, and oust all the smelly hidden nasties pasted to the insidesAnother overpriced marketing wank product, now owned by Audiophool Products Inc. OHL Division perhaps ?

author: CJay
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 24, 2019, 09:39:54 am
content: Quote from: cdev on January 24, 2019, 12:25:03 amNo.Next question?Oh, and today, Airbus, the huge EU aircraft manufacturer, has announced that in the event of a no deal exit, they're likely to relocate to an EU country.I can't make my mind up if 'leave' is more tax evasion, disaster capitalism or foreign power influence, it's definitely a combination of all three, I just can't decide the percentages.

author: Alex Eisenhut
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 24, 2019, 10:22:02 am
content: Quote from: Electro Detective on January 24, 2019, 09:27:41 amI have the cheap and cheerful Dirt Devil 24V Reach Max. A bit plasticky but works well. Of course I live in a shoebox with only one floor, not a house. So it's enough. Once a week I take the container apart and clean it all with water. Once dried it works like new again. No new filter needed after one year.

author: Gromitt
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 24, 2019, 03:38:17 pm
content: The most Swedish of Swedish companies, IKEA, have it's head office in the Netherlands. In Leiden to be precise.

author: all_repair
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 24, 2019, 05:09:55 pm
content: Primary reason is China market, yet do not want to have the development done in China. Secondly the other Asian markets as other Asians are getting rich fast and right for Dyson. Singapore is a very small market, but she has the most free trade deal with many countries and many regional block. The logistic and distribution infrastructufe is probably one of the best in the world. Many MNCs like to employ Singaporean as their auditors to check their factories and operation in the Asian regions and beyond, and also Singaporean plant manager to safeguard their design blueprint in the safe.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 24, 2019, 05:17:14 pm
content: Quote from: all_repair on January 24, 2019, 05:09:55 pmOn the other hand, a huge amount of manufacturing has moved out of Singapore, because costs are too high there. Putting development in Singapore makes a lot of sense. However, Dyson is putting a large manufacturing site there.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 25, 2019, 03:42:18 am
content: Quote from: CJay on January 24, 2019, 09:39:54 amA riddle.. not about Dyson, about Brexit.Often described as 'everything that can't be dropped on your foot' I am an entanglement of sectors a tiny bit more than 23 years old, described by two four letter acronyms. To leave me one must pay dearly, and to join me one must pay dearly also. I privatize everything.

author: cs.dk
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 25, 2019, 07:03:17 am
content: Not only Dyson moves, it seems like Sony follows;Sony Europe moves legal base out of UK because of Brexit

author: Electro Detective
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 25, 2019, 08:31:29 am
content: Seriously folks, should we really lose any siesta timeabout where the curvy design, overpriced, land fill bound, unserviceable products -BRAND X- 'bean counter HQ offices' are based?China, EU, Moon, Mars, Mos Eisley, Alpha Centauri, Romulus...makes no differenceit's just an office with some laptops, coffee maker, faux leather Chesterfields,and refurbished Xerox machine for Xmas partiesI doubt most EEVblog-ites would waste their attention on most of this bin bound product anyway...unless it's a dumpster or nature strip 'acquisition' at the right price

author: Electro Detective
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 25, 2019, 09:33:41 am
content: Fair enough mate, since we are on a frankness vibe, I toohadmorbid arachnophobia,till one day a quarter pounder spider was on my pillow at wake time, staring me downi.e. as you know it's >FREAK OUT CITY !!!What did I do?I thought about it for a second... and panic flicked it off the pillow with my middle finger (cigarette binning experience) and it landed into a cornerI got up feeling wacked out, and thought about it some more... then I got a plastic wall wart package that has the sliding cardboard thing,captured the spider, and what to do ?Instead of sending it to Arachnid HELL, I decided to drop it on a lemon tree,reasoning was to hopefully it build a web and sort out any nasties like ants, caterpillars, wasps etc which were a REAL problemThought about it some more over time and realised... hey "morbid arachnophobia" GONE !Since then a LOT of spiders have been captured roaming about with the same method described,and put to good use in the back yard.They rarely return btw, and if they do (unlikely) they go back asapTheir offspring can appear occasionally looking for a base of operations in a corner somewhere,same deal for them tooHope that helps, and FWIW most vacs in a maintained state can do what a Dyson can doJust wait till a Dyson gets blocked up badly by hair,you have to dissect the head unit completelyand have a selection of pickey type tools to do the job properly20 minute job on a good day...if the hair balls have not welded to the plastic...

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 25, 2019, 11:26:23 am
content: Quote from: cdev on January 24, 2019, 12:25:03 amThat applies to Disneyland, Florida.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_punishment_in_the_United_StatesFor Disneyland without the death penalty, go to Paris.Anyway, back on topic: I like some of the Dyson vacuums, but their hand driers are crap. There's one where I work and it gets very smelly!I don't see how Dyson moving their head office to Singapore is going to make much difference to the UK's economy. There will be some job losses, but not many.

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 25, 2019, 11:55:34 am
content: You Brits should be worry or at least sympathize those Airbus employees, instead of these Dyson's few office workers. Thousands will be laid off if Brexit happened, really, personally I feel sorry for those workers if worst case happened.Quote -> "The world’s second-largest aerospace group employs 14,000 people in Britain, including 6,000 at its main wings factory at Broughton, Wales, and 3,000 in Filton, western England, where wings are designed and supported."Source ->Airbus CEO warns of ‘harmful decisions’ for UK jobs in a no-deal Brexit

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 25, 2019, 12:35:21 pm
content: Quote from: BravoV on January 25, 2019, 11:55:34 amThat specifically relates to a no deal, not just Brexit.In any case, although I agree no-deal isn't a viable an option, it would be stupid for our government to publicly rule out a no-deal Brexit, because it would reduce the possibility of the EU compromising. Clearly the current deal doesn't have enough support, so an alternative must be found.The real problem with Brexit really is no one ever agreed on what it actually is. People who voted for Brexit, did so for differencing reasons and had opposing views on what it should be.

author: Wolfgang
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 25, 2019, 12:41:35 pm
content: Quote from: Zero999 on January 25, 2019, 12:35:21 pmMaybe the best way is a hard Brexit. Then the brits can figure out if they really like it and if all the proposed benefits really happenIf not .... they could make another people's vote after they found out how it feels in reality. In the moment they look like a totally confused people who only know what they *dont* want.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 25, 2019, 01:17:35 pm
content: Quote from: cdev on January 24, 2019, 12:25:03 amRupert Murdoch was born and grew up in Australia, so no!

author: CJay
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 25, 2019, 03:30:50 pm
content: Quote from: Wolfgang on January 25, 2019, 12:41:35 pmThat thought occurred to me too but unfortunately, no, it wouldn't work.There would always be another scapegoat, it'd be 'remainers' or somehow the EU again because they refused to bend over and give us everything we asked for or that tree over there because it looked at them funny.A for instance, we are experiencing drug shortages here because of brexit stockpiling, a leaver told me it wasn't true, despite it being widely reported in the media and my partner's pharmacist telling her that is the reason she couldn't have some of her regular meds.According to him, it's not true because he didn't vote for that and even if it was true he wasn't responsible for it, nor were any of the other people who voted leave, it was the government's fault.That's the level of weapons grade stupidity that brought about Brexit.

author: Wolfgang
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 25, 2019, 04:02:30 pm
content: Quote from: CJay on January 25, 2019, 03:30:50 pmWell, to me it looks like some drunk upperclass people had a bet in a bar at night if they could manipulate the public into this "adventure". Its a prank that somehow went out of control. Normally you appeal for patriotism when all other intellectual means are exhausted.

author: Wolfgang
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 25, 2019, 05:19:49 pm
content: ... I am afraid that the hard-core Brexiteers wont listen to any kind of warning, is it that what you ment ?

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 25, 2019, 05:37:46 pm
content: (referring to a post I decided to delete just a minute after I posted it)No, something completely unexpected. Any change will trigger it.Quote from: Wolfgang on January 25, 2019, 05:19:49 pmNo, none of them seem to have any idea of what will be triggered by this change. One has to look to opinion pieces like the one penned by Peter Ungphakorn in ICTSD Bridges on 27 June 2016. And even that one only hints at something which is certain to be determinative of so very much it should be seen very differently. The whole direction of our planets future may hinge on what happens.

author: schmitt trigger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 25, 2019, 05:44:33 pm
content: For me, Brexit has served a purpose: piquing my interest in, and convincing me to make an effort to learn about the UK's parliamentary system, of which I must confess, my previous knowledge was completely wrong.It has been a fascinating, high-stakes drama for which I am sure many textbooks will be written, documentaries will be made, and perhaps even an Oscar-worthy film will come out when the dust finally settles.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 25, 2019, 05:54:16 pm
content: (or whatever award is applicable in this theatrical context)What an amazing performance indeed. And its not over yet.Quote from: schmitt trigger on January 25, 2019, 05:44:33 pm

author: Wolfgang
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 25, 2019, 05:54:19 pm
content: In some aspects British people are like women to me; you should love them, but trying to understand them is futile.

author: CJay
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 25, 2019, 05:56:03 pm
content: Quote from: Wolfgang on January 25, 2019, 05:19:49 pmThat's about it, even today, with the announcement of Airbus possibly having to relocate if we 'crash out', they are still trying to deny there will be ill effects, some are still claiming it's all scare stories, the best I've heard today is a radio interview with a British woman who says none of the stories of businesses leaving are true.She was calling from her home in Italy.

author: Wolfgang
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 25, 2019, 06:04:00 pm
content: ... thats British humour at its best.

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 25, 2019, 06:10:40 pm
content: The Brits will get through the hurdles, rebuild their independence and become free, while other countried remain enslaved and raped.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 25, 2019, 06:14:43 pm
content: Theres an old saying "Out of the frying pan and into the fire"

author: Wolfgang
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 25, 2019, 06:17:21 pm
content: While sympathies for the Brussels bureaucrats are very moderate no other EU country found it attractive to imitate what England is doing at the moment. If splendid isolations stands for less living standards, less freedom of travel, more expensive supplies and other drawbacks - fine. Nationalism comes at a price.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 25, 2019, 07:02:42 pm
content: Except nothing is as it seems in this mess.Any change at this point may trigger TWO SETS of demands from 163 potential countries on them, because much of what they do - the UK's safety net, which was grandfathered in more than 20 years ago, as well as their market access, like the situation with most other EU countries, is alleged to be 'nonconformant' with the rules they think will be so simple to manage. Other countries are pushing hard for changes, to make the UK and other similar countries more like them. They don't want to become more like the developed countries in terms of a safety net or labor standards or food safety or anything. They want the market access they claim to have been promised. Especially in services. They often frame much of what most people in Western countries see as the irreversible improvements made in the 20th century, as bad, as forms of discrimination or protectionism.So Brexit may end up in retrospect as a bit like jumping out of the frying pan, into the fire.

author: CJay
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 25, 2019, 07:10:33 pm
content: Quote from: Bud on January 25, 2019, 06:10:40 pmBud, with all due respect, you clearly have absolutely no idea about the EU, what it does or how it works.

author: dave j
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 25, 2019, 07:38:54 pm
content: Quote from: BravoV on January 25, 2019, 11:55:34 amMost of them voted leave. Reserve your sympathies for those who won't be the architects of their own downfall.

author: Wolfgang
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 25, 2019, 07:56:28 pm
content: How do you know that the British Airbus people voted "leave". That would be a big surprise for me.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 25, 2019, 07:57:11 pm
content: In some ways, (not the ways that are publicized, in the sense that they could sense that the means by which they managed to survive were being traded out from under them) the people (Not their leadership!) who wanted to 'Leave' had some legitimate beefs.However, the whole situation has the reek of having been created by external forces deliberately. For example, the push to create a single market for labor is a means of labor arbitrage, to lower wages. Immigrants arent to blame, nor are people fleeing warfare. We could deal with all these challenges much better than we are, whats happening everywhere is the people who currently hold the reigns of power are not the kinds of wise people we need, they are more of a tribe of the very rich who care more about one another than they do about the needs of their respective countries.As they game the system by taking unfair advantage of its power gradients, they want to keep the planet as divided as they can for as long as they can, blaming everybody but themselves so skillfully that virtually no attention is being focused on the looting of everything, as fast as they can, or the huge problem of exponentially increasing productivity (which should be seen as a good thing by any sane society, leading to people being given more time with families, etc.) The bar to employment is rising, yes, but that shouldn't lead, as it has, to disinvestments in education, or society.Basically, a failure to implement fair policies like progressive taxation, also overspending on military hardware and washing of hands of the responsibilities to all of us is occurring.Making the world everybody wants for all of us happen needs to be much higher priority and everybody rich and poor knows this. And admits it in private. SO actually people agree much more than the media implies! Very few people actually agree with the extreme right that gets so much airtime. Those people are basically put there in an attempt to shift the Overton Window by the rich. To prevent attention from being focused on rapidly increasing inequality.Education is a crucial positive force, instead we're seeing disinvestment. Health is an essential good and we need to have it become a human right. Instead we're seeing efforts to make it less and less affordable. By fiat.Rights to clean drinking water, energy needed for homes and businesses all need to be protected, instead the wagons are being circled to extract more, before people realize how little they may have for these things in the future, and make these things more expensive than they need to be now. And require countries not provide them to the poor when in many cases they did in the past.So, it seems to me - as an outsider that at least some of the beefs the pro-Brexit Leave people had were right. Are right, but they were being manipulated, and misled, by people who deliberately mis-attributed the cause of those problems to the EU entity that -although it was in no small part one of the main parties RESPONSIBLE for the huge attack on the (very existence of a) middle class (and also on the poor) that is just beginning, (a founding member, so to speak) it was also in a sense a semi wrapped up package that also had the effect of diluting orpostponingthe worst of the changes into the future by making huge promises, OR SO GOES THE COVER STORY.. But really, its been implementing policies that originate in Geneva, which is a body of oligarchs, many of whom are bad for their countries.Because the coalition of the greedy (speaking of all the nation states, north and south that drink the Kool Aid of antidemocratic global governance orgs and their vast cult-like attempt to disruptively remake society with an amoral scheme that reverses right and wrong quietly) its framing public goods in its totally broken definition of public services as a taking of new artificially created 'rights' from corporations and typically oligarch run countries, framing all countries as equally legitimate (a sort ofdivine right of kings, that nobody ever voted for, or would vote for) its 'programme' is arguably designed to be a wet dream for the despotic, when before they felt pressure to change, now they seem to be held up as the model, the countries where the rich are really rich, and the poor invisible.This was never anybody's wish except for a very few, and its really a huge global theft of the planet's hopes and dreams for a better less corrupt future, more than any kind of rules based system.Because it sets up a system where even the worst governments have equal rights with the best. They get everything political, and corporations, BAD AND GOOD get almost total control over everything involving money. And both seem to be bending over backwards to hide this shameful important change.This is kind of a "Straw Man Transaction" or an "Adverse Possession" to take beneficial ownership - de facto possession of the planet and its future- before what was a gradually improving expectaion that democracy can really become a real one everywhere, someday,- because an uncontrolled Internet with free speech would have had the potential to do that.Trust me, not only the UK people but to varying degrees the entire world, both developed and developing have been misled on a scale which boggles the imagination.The best thing people could do to figure it out is stop watching or reading any popular media except very very critically, and instead do research on the roots of the multilateral trading system in the Bretton Woods conference, starting with the so called Uruguay Round, and its alleged 'compromise' on 'services' that first was put in writing via a single paragraph in the preambulary language (non-binding) in the Punta Del Este Declaration of 20 September 1986, as part of the transition from GATT into the totally undemocratic, undisputedly illegitimate, (the only disagree about how to fix it, but none of the proposals could because to fix it would require disclosure that they will never do) The so called 'rules based system' (cough) we (don't) know today.This is now alleged to have created a body of expectations and obligations, however its really a masterfulcon gameto implement a sort of "Golden Straightjacket" that directly conflicts with democracy, in other words, the hyperglobalization "Trilemma" situation that exists today.When you understand that all this shenanigans will make much more sense.

author: dave j
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 25, 2019, 08:18:52 pm
content: Quote from: Wolfgang on January 25, 2019, 07:56:28 pmAirbus staff: ‘I voted Leave. People said Brexit would never affect us because we’re too big a company.’You have to remember that a lot of people didn't think leave would win and voted for it as a way to protest about the government's austerity policies and because the two main parties have ignored them for decades. Our first past the post electoral system means that the vast majority of people live in safe constituencies - they either always return a Conservative MP or a Labour one. Conservative governments ignore people in safe Labour constituencies because they'll never vote for them and Labour governments ignore them because they'll always vote for them. Similarly with safe Conservative constituencies.

author: CJay
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 25, 2019, 08:33:02 pm
content: Quote from: Wolfgang on January 25, 2019, 07:56:28 pmThere have been quite a few interviewed on television outside the factory in Broughton who have freely admitted they did.

author: MrMobodies
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 25, 2019, 09:30:47 pm
content: Quote from: cdev on January 25, 2019, 07:57:11 pmAlso zero hour contracts and I see that they use the immigrants for their "market forces" on wages.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 25, 2019, 09:32:30 pm
content: Quote from: CJay on January 25, 2019, 08:33:02 pmIts easy to find some people to interview who will say they voted to leave, even if only a small percentage did. You'd need a rather more scientific study to get a real picture of specifically how Airbus employees voted. However, it does look like many of the towns most reliant on a robust EU, like the towns where Airbus and the Japanese car assembly plants are located, generally had some of the high percentage votes to leave the EU.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 25, 2019, 09:38:47 pm
content: Quote from: cdev on January 23, 2019, 11:20:17 pmSingapore is cheaper and James Dyson is a well known liar. He trumpets he UK and us leaving the EU being good but he clearly does not believe his own words he is just another piece of Tory scum that tells lies, obviously actually entering politics would be too tedious for him but he is no better than a scumbag politician.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 25, 2019, 10:26:53 pm
content: It is totally irresponsible to mislead people. Especially when money may be involved.When some really important situation exists, or when somebody is a fiduciary (people in public offices, or running for public office, should be considered to have afiduciary responsibility, basically a legal obligation to try to tell the truth)it should then be mandatory to do ones best to tell the whole story. Even the inconvenient parts. Anything else is irresponsible.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 25, 2019, 10:38:17 pm
content: Well, if you drink the Kool Aid that they were empowered to make the (illegitimate) deals its claimed they made you still end up with the fact that then they made what amounts to a worldwide deal to do something that 99% of the public would guess wasn't theirs to promise away.Thatshouldtell us that that deal was not made, that its unconscionable and void.But they did it anyway and continue to try to do more of it.A trade so horrible I can't even explain it without invariably falling into rant territory. So I guess if I was a fiduciary (I'm not) I would then be breaking my own proposed rule, but I did it both because people don't believe me (or others) when they try to explain this and also because people need their mental health.Look up the phrase 'control fraud'.Some people have no moral compass. That doesn't mean they have some moral compass it means they have no moral compass.How to visualize it. Trust somebody gives you, to a narcissist, is a bit like money, they see it as something they could spend. Most of us wouldn't see it that way but they do. Do you see what I am getting at. By creating a world where accountability is made to not exist where 'money is everything' (thats what we're doing now) we're opening up the door to really serious abuses.Maybe thats not so clear, let me try again.The Mob, organized crime, sometimes when they have 'captured' a business sort of max out its credit, they take out as many loans in a business name as possible, they leverage every possible thing, they create a massive debt that can never be paid, and leave it a shell with as large a negative balance as they can.Corrupt despots in Third World countries, the ruling classes in despot ruled countries 'banana republics' used to be known for doing that (creating the huge "Third World Debt" that the banks in developed countries insist must be paid, by their people. Even though their people were not the ones who stole that money or put it into Swiss bank accounts. But they must pay, their retirement funds, their everything really, is what pays off the debt of the insiders, who walk away scot free.Quote from: MrMobodies on January 25, 2019, 09:30:47 pmGuess what, thats the way the system we have now works. Thats by design.Too much is left unsaid, when things are left open, don't always assume that people will behave the way they did in the past. Under different conditions.The powerful call this LYING 'creative ambiguity' People believe them because they have no choice, its not 'consent'.You'll notice that every ten years or so, there is another, massive global theft, each one gets bigger. The same people seem to be making more and more each time, they always get away scot free.Here is some stuff on the second or third to last one, for example.http://visar.csustan.edu/aaba/BCCICOVERUP.pdfhttps://www.sec.gov/rules/proposed/s71300/sikka1b.htm

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 25, 2019, 11:30:43 pm
content: Quote from: cdev on January 25, 2019, 10:26:53 pmI think you've confused the words "irresponsible" and "profitable".

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 26, 2019, 01:44:09 am
content: Note, I am not talking about Dyson, I'm talking about BrexithypothesesYou can find a lot of stuff if you google "Control Fraud". The movie "the Producers" (the original one from 1967, I haven't seen the remakes, Broadway play, etc) depicts a"Control Fraud". The term was coined by William Black.Or here, watch this video.http://wallstreetonparade.com/2019/01/former-sec-attorney-james-kidney-is-captured-regulators-worst-nightmare/Another "Control Fraud" (which was also made into a book and a movie, however this is the real story.)

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 26, 2019, 04:17:21 am
content: Quote from: CJay on January 25, 2019, 03:30:50 pmPoms love to moan -- without something to "whinge"about, they might be happy, which would make them unhappy, if you get my drift.It's a bit like a relaxation oscillator.Moan because they are unhappy, moaning makes them happy, then they are unhappy because they don't have anything to moan about, so they moan about that!

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 26, 2019, 04:31:39 am
content: Not wise at all because any change you make to WTO status (like leaving the EU WTO umbrella) will trigger 162 countries demands from you for compensation. And those demands will also include conformance with current, not pre WTO pre 1995 rules. Simply put in real terms, only one of the likely many required changes, the loss of the NHS's grandfathering alone could cost individual Britons a half million dollars apiece over their lifetimes in today's money, in increased health insurance costs, more if they have any kind of pre-existing conditions, and thats a very conservative estimate (based on very old costs not current ones) . Thats enough to buy a house in many areas. Ask Americans how much health insurance in US urban areas cost, I dare you. That could easily be the cost of WTO accession. I have a feeling I know what country might demand that. And as I said, thats just one of dozens of changes you will likely face.

author: CJay
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 26, 2019, 08:48:30 am
content: Quote from: vk6zgo on January 26, 2019, 04:17:21 amWe do love a good whinge, that's true, and brexit will give us amazing fodder to moan about for decades to come.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 26, 2019, 09:08:51 am
content: QuoteOooh. Politics.For the record, I don't disagree - as was obliquely mentioned in a Guardian article a week or so agoNo, I don't intend to discuss that further

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 26, 2019, 09:27:59 am
content: i was told that James Dyson wanted a tax break from the UK government but did not get it, he is only doing electric car design in the Uk because of all of the tax breaks for R&D (60% back instead of 20%). The man is a self serving asshole that same as all of these so called entrepreneurs.Have we all forgotten his zero carbon emissions vacuum cleaners?

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 26, 2019, 01:06:47 pm
content: Here they come- these are the first I've seen so far.These are for Taiwan - 162 more countries to go on compensation, 163 possible objectors to UK's solo accession.Imagine 163 countries getting a free pass to go into your "house" and select one piece or another of your economy for themselves and all the other members to enter. They will try to pick one where they can underbid your own firms, under one of the"Four Modes of Supply"which is how they are broken up in their schedules. If I were you I would find a good description of those four modes and print it out to have handy so you'll understand them as these "request-offer" negotiations proceed. I think that some of the existing UK schedule docs are available on tradebetablog which is on wordpress.com .Will it be this service sector or that one each new country wants concessions to service?http://focustaiwan.tw/news/aeco/201901170014.aspxhttps://www.taiwannews.com.tw/en/news/3619246'Taipei looks forward to “entering into consultations expeditiously with the United Kingdom in order to reach a satisfactory resolution to this matter".'Seriously, this ordeal is going to make Brexit itself look like "the comfy chair".

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 26, 2019, 01:55:53 pm
content: cdev, we are not interested in trade deal talks so zip it please!

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 26, 2019, 02:03:02 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on January 26, 2019, 01:55:53 pmHow can you discuss brexit and Dyson moving to Singapore in isolation from trade deals? If trade deals are off the table, this entire thread, and any others about work moving from place to place, have to be off the table.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 26, 2019, 02:05:19 pm
content: The thread is about Dyson moving. If you let cdev he will fill the entire thread with extensive essays on trade deals out of the scope of the topic. Alternatively I can close the off topic thread.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 26, 2019, 02:10:52 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on January 26, 2019, 02:05:19 pmDyson is moving because trade deals, and the Singapore government's love of subsidising new industries to attract them, make that a good deal for them. Singapore can only get away with these subsidies because of the trade deal framework in which they operate. Trade deals are EXACTLY why Dyson is moving.Singapore doesn't do very well from these subsidies. I have seen numerous examples of places closing in Singapore the very day the subsidies ran out.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 26, 2019, 02:14:31 pm
content: Dyson is moving for tax reasons, as a non EU company his goods will face tarrifs but if building in singapore is significantly cheaper the tarrifs are no issue anyway which is the whole basis for making things in Asia. He is taking advantage of UK R&D tax breaks AND tax deals on his manufacturing.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 26, 2019, 02:31:46 pm
content: How about if I created a thread specifically for them? No ranting, I'll just post links to the articles I see to these requests and their links.For example, India wants various changes.. including ones in engineering..https://www.thequint.com/voices/opinion/what-should-brexit-mean-for-india-2Here is an article from a few yrs ago that explains this process...https://www.ictsd.org/opinion/nothing-simple-about-uk-regaining-wto-status-post-brexit

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 26, 2019, 02:38:34 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on January 26, 2019, 02:14:31 pmHave you looked at costs in Singapore? Their basic costs are well above the UK's. Its only cheaper to do business there when a combination of subsidies, trade deals, and tax breaks make it so. Almost 100% of hard disk drives were made in Singapore at one time, as a result of focussed government activities. When the sweet deals ran out, so did all the manufacturers, to the nearest low cost place - Thailand. Since then Singapore's costs have been rising, each new industry they attract is more tightly tied to sweet deals, and they keep loosing them faster as the deals expire. In the early 90s places like Ang Mo Kio were really bustling with a diversity of high tech development and manufacture. Now they will go to great lengths to attract replacements for the companies who have left.A few years ago Singapore was eager to build comms businesses. They offered sweet deals for companies, and some well funded PhD programs. It didn't seem to work out very well for them. If you want to found a bio-tech startup right now, Singapore is a great place to go. I know friends of friends who have left the UK to found bio-tech businesses in Singapore, because it was so much more attractive. Its all down to trade deals, because they determine what tax breaks and subsidies a government can get away with.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 26, 2019, 02:47:28 pm
content: Tarrifs are charged by the importing country and are governed by their rules not anything that singapore can offer. So if we buy dyson crap in the UK we will be paying whatever tariffs the EU impose, or us under an anglo-singapore deal or WTO, singapore does not get to make these rules so all they can lay on the tables it the taxs breaks he wanted out of the UK for being a massive Tory supporter.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 26, 2019, 02:51:02 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on January 26, 2019, 02:47:28 pmTariffs are a two way thing. They are either set by a body like the WTO, or they stabilise to a stand off position between the two parties.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 26, 2019, 02:52:55 pm
content: We are currently in the EU, so we are governed by EU trade treaties. What is the Eu trade deal with singapore?

author: BradC
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 26, 2019, 02:54:45 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on January 25, 2019, 09:38:47 pmQuote from: Simon on January 26, 2019, 09:27:59 amQuote from: Simon on January 26, 2019, 02:47:28 pmYou seem to dislike the bloke. Did he shoot your dog or something?

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 26, 2019, 02:56:40 pm
content: Quote from: BradC on January 26, 2019, 02:54:45 pmYes I do, you just quoted my reasons!

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 26, 2019, 03:05:20 pm
content: Quote from: BradC on January 26, 2019, 02:54:45 pmIt more the reaction to Dyson in the UK that bothers me. In previous generations he would have been treated as a great marketer. Now engineering in the UK has sunk so low he's treated as a great engineer. When he made a poorly engineered rip-off of a Mitsubishi hand dryer he was lauded as a fantastic innovator. That's how blindly he is followed.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 26, 2019, 03:20:03 pm
content: He is followed so blindly that he is called an inventor and star in his own fraudulent adverts on TV

author: Buriedcode
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 26, 2019, 03:43:43 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on January 26, 2019, 03:20:03 pmAgreed. Dysons marketing department is everything that is wrong with the world. I realize I tend to get on my soapbox often and rant, but I couldn't stop myself postingThe list:Not the best source:https://www.thesun.co.uk/tech/5299010/dyson-purifier-banned-tv-ad/https://www.theguardian.com/media/2015/dec/02/dyson-advert-sucks-advertising-watchdog-advertising-gtechClaiming his "revolutionary" new portable vacuum cleaners are so good, he's stopping producing the standard types, when in reality - its because the EU is banning them:https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-41119355Calling brushless DC motors "V6 digital motors", even though he couldn't use any other kind, because its the only kind of motor that has the power at that small size. He implies that his company invented it. The V6 is what? version? 6 pole? Trying to make people think of it as a petrol engine?https://www.forbes.com/sites/patrickhanlon/2012/05/06/if-sir-dyson-doesnt-believe-in-brands-why-has-he-spent-millions-building-one/And our very own Dave at his finest:http://www.eevblog.com/2010/12/13/eevblog-132-delusional-dyson-marketing/And also I don't believe he's actually invented anything. I don't see how he has "revolutionized" vacuuming, especially as portable vacuums making use of lithium batteries and small light powerful brushless DC motors were around about 5 years before he jumped on the bandwagon. Good businessman? certainly, you don't build a huge company like that without aggressive marketing towards a demographic. But "inventor" ? Naa. I do think the world has a place for companies like it though, the whole "disruptive by design" has an effect on innovation - forcing rival companies to innovate, and not stagnate. But I really can't bear the man.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 26, 2019, 03:59:40 pm
content: Quote from: Buriedcode on January 26, 2019, 03:43:43 pmIndeed. He simply waits to see what others are producing and then jumps on the bandwagon swamping the competition with his brand and adds. It pained me to see a well meaning member of the public appeal for funds to purchase dyson fans for a hospital that had treated her because they had to dump all of their dirty and dusty fans. So firstly the fans were not at fault and it was the cleanliness of the hospital that was at fault. The fans could have been cleaned and reused. If dust on the ward was really a concern then for every piece of dyson shit they could have bought 4 other brand air cleaners and perhaps some new fans of another brand that would now no longer be collecting and/or moving dust around. But due to the Dyson lies he is the number one brand and all of that advertising costs money and that is why his products are so expensive.He is one of the last to go into making electric cars and has spent a fortune in the UK. So much that where he opened his R&D facility house prices have skyrocketed due to the influx of people. That whole operation will be partly paid for by the tax payer s R&D in the UK attracts a further 40% tax rebate from your usual 20% (charge costs against income and the costs take 20% off your tax). But having gotten all of this money out of the British public he has taken the manufacturing abroad while Ford is looking to keep their plant in the UK by converting to electric engine making after its combustion engine contracts run out so it's not like it cannot be done.

author: ocset
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 26, 2019, 06:32:05 pm
content: QuoteThanks Tooki I do see your point that loads of small companies put there head office in different countries to their country of origin/domicileQuoteThanks Grommit, that’s interesting because IKEA is big. But IKEA is the only other Big Global company (other than Dyson) that i‘ve ever heard about that puts it head office in a country of “non-domicile.”I reckon Dyson is moving to the Far East partly because he will better be able to employ Chinese electronics engineers there….i think China is not happy about too many Chinese engineers leaving the Far East, but may agree to them working in Singapore.Also, because Huge companies virtually never move the “head office” to a country of non-domicile, you have to say that this move looks like a pre-cursor to selling Dyson off to a Far Eastern buyer. Dyson has long lamented the lack of British Engineers for him to grow Dyson in UK with.Dyson is the last Bastion of British large-company electronics engineering…..if Dyson gets sold off, that’s mega bad news for the UK.Another British originated electric car company, (Protean electric), got sold off to China and USA.To me Dyson's brilliant invention was the bagless vacuum cleaner, which is augmented by his dual cyclone technology.I only owned one vac cleaner in my life, and the bag blocking up etc was a real nuisance.I think the bag blocking up overstressed the motor and made it fail.So i reckon bagless must be good.I think Bagless co's have to pay a fee to Dyson if they use bagless + dual cyclone. (due to the patent)

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 26, 2019, 07:11:12 pm
content: The biggest problem is capital flight as countries compete for investment. So we're getting a race to the bottom on everything as countries cut taxes and benefits and jobs dry up. And they're making it so people can't vote to fix it.

author: ocset
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 26, 2019, 07:20:36 pm
content: Dyson is a massive proportion of the UK engineering sector.I bet if a massive proportion of big business's in USA, China, Germany, Netherlands, France, Japan etc etc tried to put their head offices overseas, then their respective governments would step in and stop it.BMW, Mercedes, Audi, VW, etc etc all sell massively outside of Germany...but their head offices are in Germany, and i bet the German gov't would stop them moving head office out of Germany.....as just one example.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 26, 2019, 07:27:51 pm
content: You mean like we sold out ARM to the japanese

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 26, 2019, 07:30:55 pm
content: I'm sorry, I just don't buy that one company, especially such a pathetic one (sorry) could be 'a massive proportion of the British engineering sector'.Airbus, yes, I see that is a big loss.Given that the ECJ ruled that you can decide to forget Brexit tomorrow and never give it another thought...

author: ocset
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 26, 2019, 07:33:56 pm
content: QuoteThanks, thats right...Dyson will be sold i feel.Tax breaks from moving to Singapore would be good but too small to be interesting to a company of the wealth of Dyson.I am also wondering if the "Dyson company" has been put under some kind of "pressure" to move the Head Office to Singapore.The Brit Government should have stepped in and stopped this, but due to the "Enterprise Act 2002" they have no such obligation.Ill bet if BMW tried to locate the Head Office to USA the German Gov't would step in.Brit companies are just too free of Government control......in this case i can't help but feel that Dyson has come under some kind of pressure, from somewhere.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 26, 2019, 07:43:14 pm
content: "Money is the root of all evil"- Old proverb

author: ocset
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 26, 2019, 07:45:38 pm
content: Dyson’s no greedy money grabber…he’s an engineer first……when I worked at Dyson I used to see him in the café at lunchtime having technical meetings with all the engineers around him……all with their laptops, having a kind of working lunch. I passed him in the corridor once, and he said "hello", few others in his position would do that.Some of my ex colleagues were on first name terms with him…he loves engineering, and loves talking tech with engineers. I wonder if he has come under some kind of pressure. I cannot help but think this.If Dyson was wanting money, it would be to re-invest in some big tech project......tax break money just isnt enough for this....he hasnt moved to Singapore for tax reasons.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 26, 2019, 07:50:43 pm
content: Quote from: treez on January 26, 2019, 07:45:38 pmyea that is why he appears in his own advert telling utter lies, tat is not an engineer, that is a nasty bastard!

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 26, 2019, 08:01:15 pm
content: ALL companies are under pressure from investors, TOO MUCH pressure - to make a profit.This is causing more and more problems all the time.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 26, 2019, 08:03:31 pm
content: Quote from: treez on January 26, 2019, 06:32:05 pmIKEA did not move its actual headquarters to the Netherlands. It's just a tax home. The actual operational company HQ remains in Sweden. Having a legal HQ in a tax haven (or subsidiaries in tax shelters that actually make the profits) is the same category of tactics practiced bycountless thousandsof companies.If the news reports are accurate and Dyson is actually moving its functional HQ to Singapore, that's a fairly unusual — but not unheard of — thing.Quote from: treez on January 26, 2019, 06:32:05 pmBro… you're delusional. Dyson is a £3.5 billion company. It's not nothing, but it's a drop in the bucket of British engineering (for example, Rolls-Royce alone is over £12b). And I wouldn't call them "electronics engineering" since they make appliances, not electronics as such.And while it's probably true that Dyson is the only remaining major British-owned appliance company, many more remain that simply have foreign ownership.Quote from: treez on January 26, 2019, 06:32:05 pmBagless cyclonic vacuums predate Dyson bydecades. The first one was patented in 1928 and were on the market by 1939.Dyson popularized it in consumer vacuums, but cyclonic separation has been a staple of industrial processes for a LONG time.If you burned out a vacuum with a full bag, it was either a dud machine, or you let the bag get way, way, WAY too full.For what it's worth, I owned a full-size bagless vacuum once — never again. It wasn't a Dyson, and I freely acknowledge that the model I chose was a lemon for various reasons. And I've had small ones like a Dustbuster and Dirt-Devil hand-vac. One aspect of bagless — the f••king mess that emptying the dust makes, defeating the whole point of vacuuming — made me swear them off once and for all, even after using friends' Dysons. Modern vacuums with bags work great, thanks to modern filter materials and better machine designs that don't cause airflow loss as the bag fills.Quote from: treez on January 26, 2019, 07:20:36 pmAbsolutely not.Quote from: treez on January 26, 2019, 07:20:36 pmAgain… you talking about an actual operational HQ, or just a mailbox company for tax evasion? Two entirely different things...Quote from: treez on January 26, 2019, 07:45:38 pmOne can be both!I have no reason to believe he's not an engineer — applying established engineering principles or processes in novel ways is also engineering. But this doesn't in any way preclude him from being a shrewd marketer.(IMHO, many Dyson consumer appliances are clever, well thought out products — but with prices that are not justified by the cheap plastics used to make them.)

author: ocset
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 26, 2019, 08:05:07 pm
content: Quotei am talking about different kind of pressure........others may dislike it if i say what i think is really happening.I think he's a good bloke that has his head deep in his engineering thoughts.I think the British Government should step in and take over Dyson.....keep Dyson in Charge, but not in full control.Its too dangerous to have an individual in total control of any company the size of Dyson...

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 26, 2019, 08:05:18 pm
content: Quote from: cdev on January 26, 2019, 08:01:15 pmWell, while I fundamentally agree, two comments:1. not only have big investors pushed companies that way, they've also pushed laws that way, too, so that companies are essentiallyrequiredto put profit above all else.2. Dyson is a privately held company. So pressure from outside investors isn't an issue.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 26, 2019, 08:09:47 pm
content: Quote from: treez on January 26, 2019, 08:05:07 pmDyson is nowherecloseto the "too big to fail" category of company that a government would step in to save. (For context, General Motors, which was famously bailed out, is a $145 billion company — but above all, in an industry where domestic suppliers play a huge role.) Dyson closing up would suck for the local economy, but it would not put the entire British economy at risk. THAT is when governments step in. (Well, that or when politicians are getting paid off…)

author: ocset
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 26, 2019, 08:13:09 pm
content: Dyson is "relatively" small, but is the biggest British Engineering company in UK. (possibly 2nd after JCB).Hence the UK government should step in.QuoteMy impression is that the Functional Head office of Dyson has moved to Singapore....ie the whole thing, lock stock and barrel.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 26, 2019, 08:29:40 pm
content: Why is the government taking money from people and giving it to corporations who don't give a ****?Let them go!What really is out of control is organized LOOTING. Taxpayers are beingforced to indemnify businesses that should have been insured by commercial all risk insurance, which would have limited their problems to themselves, or more likely they would never have gotten in trouble.Because they would have been under adult supervision.Example here of organized looting of the taxpayers.:https://www.thisamericanlife.org/355/the-giant-pool-of-money

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 26, 2019, 08:35:29 pm
content: According to google..Singapore Is Still The Most Expensive City In The WorldCountry City Rank changeSwitzerland Geneva -3France Paris -2US New York -2Denmark Copenhagen -1

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 26, 2019, 08:43:20 pm
content: Quote from: treez on January 26, 2019, 08:13:09 pmStill kind of scary that you used to work for him! If you'd stayed you might have got a free ride to Singapore.

author: CJay
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 26, 2019, 09:47:55 pm
content: Quote from: treez on January 26, 2019, 08:13:09 pm1. No, Dyson is small beans compared to several other British engineering companies.2. No, he's already had a shit ton of British taxpayer's money which is now going to earn a nice tax revenue for Singapore, what exactly do you think the government should do?

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 26, 2019, 10:01:35 pm
content: Quote from: CJay on January 26, 2019, 09:47:55 pmImpose massive import duties on his crappy products. As it is the UK is in trouble with the EU for not imposing import duty on all that shit from china!

author: Wolfgang
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 26, 2019, 10:17:03 pm
content: Do you want to fly to the moon ? Buy a Dyson. Do you want to clean your house or dry your hands ? Buy something else.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 26, 2019, 10:44:44 pm
content: Anything that pushes air will have absolutely no effect in space except as a gyroscope.Quote from: Wolfgang on January 26, 2019, 10:17:03 pmAgreed, I use a shop vac and a generic cheap HEPA vacuum cleaner - both use filters I can wash out, and reuse so no need to buy filters.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 27, 2019, 08:48:56 am
content: My vacum cleaner came from Lidl, £35, it's a metal bucket with the motor and filter on the lid and the suction pipe on the side. Only uses 1KW and is the most powerful thing I have ever used.

author: ocset
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 27, 2019, 09:26:54 am
content: QuoteThanks, Are you sure?…can you name them? (British ‘owned’ ones)QuoteThanks, Do you know how much?…I thought he just re-invested his profits?I wonder how this Dyson University is going?....Is it giving the Yield of British Electronics grads that Dyson needs?The move of Dyson head office to Singapore cant be for tax reasons….the saved tax would be too small beer for Dyson. Its either “pressure” being put on the Dyson company, or the desire to employ Chinese & Far Eastern Engineers, or the desire to sell the company.The move also can’t be to give him a better chance to sell his electric cars into the Far East…because loads of other electric car companies would also have moved Head Office to Singapore if that were the case.QuoteSo from a legal point of view, now that the Dyson Head Office is in Singapore, the UK now has to "import" Dyson products?

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 27, 2019, 09:33:34 am
content: Quote from: treez on January 27, 2019, 09:26:54 amHe moved manufacturing out years ago. With a UK base i don't know if that counts as importing but with his head office abroad it looks ever more likely. Like I said with everything made in china these days there must be an advantage despite tariffs, probably lower wages which make the imported product cheaper and therefore less tariffs that have little impact on his ridiculous retail prices in the Uk that can be fed right back into advertising.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 27, 2019, 10:16:04 am
content: Quote from: Simon on January 27, 2019, 08:48:56 amMine is very similar.It is an Ozito from Bunnings, & cost me $A49 .Noisy as hell, powerful, & easy to clean ---it does use a disposable bag, but it is a big one.We had a little Sanyo for years, that worked well, but was getting a bit "long in the tooth" so a few years ago, we bought a "Wertheim", paying nearly $A600.It was a great big thing with a "Power head", was bagless, & came with a lot of ballyhoo about how great it was.As you will anticipate, it was a great steaming heap of duck poo!It wouldn't go for more than 15 minutes without overheating & ceasing to work, emptying the dust receptacle was a nightmare, the wires to operate the power head flopped around loose in the hose, so objects could get tangled in them, blocking itThe old Sanyo had similar wires, but they were imbedded in the side of the hose!The handle which held the "wand" on the end of the hose wasn't gently curved, but had a fairly abrupt angle, giving still more chances of blockage.Ultimately, the Wertheim went out for the verge junk pickup, & we went back to the Sanyo, but, unfortunately, it croaked a couple of years later, so we grabbed the Ozito.The thing is, it is so cheap,that even if it does fail, it can easily be replaced by another "El Cheapo".It doesn't show any sign of imminent failure.

author: ocset
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 27, 2019, 12:27:51 pm
content: Thanks,Dyson moving the Head Office to Singapore means he can sell his electric car there (ie to the Far East) with less of a tariff......but then why havent other big electric car makers also moved their head office's to singapore?..Is it because their countries have trade deals which allow them to sell into the Far East, but the post-Brexit UK does not (yet) have such a trade deal.?I guess Dyson has invested 2.5bn (but probably much much more) into his electric car, so he desperately needs some kind of return on this investment, and if he has to move to singapore to get that return, then i suppose he has to do that.I am guessing that if Dyson doesnt sell as many electric cars as he needs to, (to break even) then he will be forced to sell Dyson off overseas in order to make back the money that he invested in electric cars in the first place.I am guessing that Dyson approached the UK government for the investment, but the UK gov't possibly refused to give money over, which then forced Dyson to go to Singapore.I have to say, i am sure Dyson electric cars will be fantastic, but this is a very saturated market.......there's no garantee of any company making good sales in this one.....i reckon Dyson will end up getting sold off overseas.The trick will be for some other (perhaps British) company perhaps to scoop up the Engineers that have been developing the Dyson electric car in UK (after Dyson gets sold off) and get them to use their experience to develop a different electric car , under a different company banner.Its hard not to imagine that some huge Chinese company is gearing up to buy out Dyson, then sell "Dyson" Electric cars back to UK.They've got Dyson HQ'd in Singapore now...so they can analyse and interrogate Dyson better, ready for swallowing it up...the Buy Out.In light of how British industry has gone over the last 70 years, this is actually the most likely outcome......ie a continuation of this....https://massey276.wixsite.com/ukdeclinePML Flightlink, (later called Protean) who were a British company that got started up into Electric cars, got swallowed up by the Chinese and the USAIf only the Brit Government could have bank-rolled Dyson to make Electric cars for the UK market, then things could have moved forward from there.Too late.If you ask me, Dyson, ever submerged in his Great Engineering thoughts and aspirations, has unwittingly hopped into a jungle without the support of his own country’s Government….He is now just moving about to keep himself out of whichever of the Lions’ jaws he encounters…….and will end up having to sell off Dyson overseas, as a final personal survival bid.Ta Ra Dyson, it was nice while it lasted.I am not going to post my link to the "Revive" British Industry campaign, (on "wix") which predicts such things and shows how to avoid them.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 27, 2019, 03:43:18 pm
content: Unless he's getting the cars manufactured there, I doubt moving to Singapore will make any difference to the tariff paid. Singapore is probably a small marked, compared to the rest of the world.I wouldn't be surprised if Dyson gets bought by a foreign power, but only when he's ready to retire.

author: ocset
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 27, 2019, 03:49:21 pm
content: Dyson is indeed getting the cars manufactured in Singapore.QuoteDyson's son is co-running Dyson at the moment..Jake Dyson....so Dyson snr retiring won't have much significanceI used to actually work at Dyson ..for Jake Dyson.The UK Government failed to bank-roll Dysons electric car episode, and now Dyson will end up getting sold off overseas.

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 27, 2019, 04:17:12 pm
content: QuoteShame you didn't get him into LED lighting, they could have had streetlights that sucked more than all the others. Sorry, Ireallytried but couldn't help myself.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 27, 2019, 04:53:41 pm
content: Quote from: Gyro on January 27, 2019, 04:17:12 pmLove it!Dyson will go where ever he can make money. if he really was just an engineer he would not make adverts that tell out and out lies and even star in them himself.Inventor, yes Dyson is an inventor not an engineer, he bangs existing blocks together and pretends he has invented a new technology

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 27, 2019, 06:04:09 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on January 27, 2019, 04:53:41 pmGranted that's doesn't seem too glorious, but that's actually what most successful businessmen have done.Still not sure why treez seems so affected by this, whereas as I noted there have already been many other and more prestigious UK businesses sold to foreign investors. Maybe he was recently considering switching from the lighting business to the vacuum cleaners one, or something.

author: CJay
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 27, 2019, 06:14:46 pm
content: Quote from: treez on January 27, 2019, 09:26:54 amRolls Royce holdings, 16Bn turnover,BAE Systems, 18Bn turnoverThose two off the top of my head, dwarf Dyson. There are more, Dyson is small beans but has a high profile because he's great at publicising himself.Hell, the company I work for turns over more than Dyson and employs more people here thatn he employs world wide.

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 27, 2019, 07:09:30 pm
content: What Dyson is seeing, and maybe other big UK corporations too standing in queue to move out from UK is what so called "stability".Business people need that, with the uncertainties and with recent the populist move across Western countries, they don't like that.Look what happened to GM when Trump kicks in, it basically sink in shit hole that it has to close so many factories abroad, while downsizing local workers to be ready for the upcoming bad impact. Populist or ultra nationalist are head ache for big corporations, let alone the radical ones that love to seize big corporation's asset in so called "nationalism". With M.A.G.A. in US, who knows the next MP has the Boris Johnson's Ver.2.0 that yelled M.B.G.A. and randomly pick Dyson as an example as GM in US.What you people rarely seen or even noted in Singapore is, as most the times its buried under the marvelous business paradise cover it has, but underneath there is a huge human right issue and yes, Singapore is not a "democratic" country.The idea of "democracy" is the best for economic is not applicable to Singapore, this country has set a new brilliant example that without democracy, yet business can be booming and good in long term.This article explains this nicely ->Brexiteer fantasy of Singapore-style economy will be hard to achieveQuoting the most related section ..."Singapore's authoritarian-lite system has allowed its ruling party to stay in power since independence and see through long-term policies rather than the short-termism seen in democratic countries."Why did the IBMs of the world come here very early on?" Vadaketh said."Part of the reason is we offered them  lots of transparency and tax incentives,but we also gave them clarity," Vadaketh added. "Singapore said, 'hey, we are not going to have a change in government in five years... some nationalists are not going to come in and steal your assets.'"

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 27, 2019, 07:10:28 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on January 27, 2019, 06:04:09 pmYes engineers don't get rich, they design the building blocks that so called inventors cobble together and then get all the credit. i thought it was well known that sales people get more than engineers? It is rare that a CEO is an engineer, all they understand is sales figures.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 27, 2019, 07:47:50 pm
content: In many Asian countries, there is such a huge surplus of people who want 'desk jobs' befitting their social status as college graduates, that those jobs pay very little. Factory jobs pay better than many desk jobs.So now the developing countries are looking to the ElDorado of Internet and e-services to 'solve this problem'. Thats the #1 subject being discussed at Davos this week.They won't ever discuss structural problems like lack of decent wages for workers or rapidly growing inequality, nor will they question the faulty assumptions they all make.So, this could lead to a lot of heartache for both the would be global firms and workers, and existing ones, and their current workers, including changes that might be more difficult to manage than those in the past. A race to the bottom.Because there are finite numbers of jobs in the planets future. No matter how little people are willing to work for. People who make less and less can't buy things. Customers will dry up.It's not simply a matter of working over the net, or eliminating red tape or making lower wages or traveling farther for work.You can't squeeze water out of stones.

author: apis
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 27, 2019, 08:08:17 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on January 27, 2019, 07:10:28 pmMost real innovation happens at universities by competing teams of people who are tax funded. The lone genius inventor who applies for a patent and becomes rich is a myth. Patents mainly serve to keep out competition from new players in an established niche. I knew people working at a large cell phone manufacturer that shall remain unnamed. They applied for whatever patents they could and every now and then compared the size of their patent pile with the competitors and made an agreement with them that they could use each others patents. For a new player with an mostly empty patent pile and no money to litigate it would be impossible to enter the market. There is a narrow window of opportunity in new markets, that's basically how apple, microsoft and google managed to succeed. But you have to be at the right spot at the right time to even have a chance, and for everyone who does make it there are thousands who doesn't. Jobs and Gates weren't exactly technical/engineering geniuses either, they were really good salesmen.

author: ocset
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 27, 2019, 08:13:41 pm
content: QuoteThanks, yes BAE i agree....however, there's a lot of "project engineering" there, with the design work being mainly done outside of UK.Rolls Royce....now mostly German.Rolls Royce Marine electrical systems is the only part thats British now...but i heard the USA was after it.I think Dyson (after BAE) is UK's biggest (British owned) company that does electronics engineering design.Only other big UK owned one i can think of is JCB.Then i think its Stannah stairlifts, but Dyson dwarfs them

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 27, 2019, 08:31:14 pm
content: I actually met Jobs and Woz at around that time. When I was still a kid. In NYC of all places. And maybe 15 years later I met him briefly at a friend's house. According to my friend who knew him really well over many decades, although Steve Jobs was definitely a great salesman he was not a non-technical person. He was an exasperating person to work for and with, too.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 27, 2019, 08:33:49 pm
content: Quote from: apis on January 27, 2019, 08:08:17 pmThe tax funding is irrelevant. What's important is that the funding does not come with strings attached, and that can come from industry.QuoteThat's standard operating procedure, and one of the main reasons for patenting.Another reason is that in order to sell a company, the company has to have assets that can't just walk out of the door. Patents give investors a warm fuzzy feeling.

author: raptor1956
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 27, 2019, 09:13:36 pm
content: Quote from: cdev on January 27, 2019, 07:47:50 pmSpeaking of Davos ...There was a panel that included Michael Dell and a brain dead economics reporter for the Washington Post and the reporter asked Dell about a proposal to increase the top tax rate on anyone earning more than $10M/year to 70% and Dell first went into his 'foundation' apparently to sidestep the question and frame an answer common among his type but when pressed he, well, watch for yourself.Brian

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 27, 2019, 09:23:55 pm
content: Oh so Mr dell knows better about how to run a country than a government? why does he not run for president if he is such a visionary..This is why i have such a distaste for organizations like Rotary which is full of well to do earners (Bill Gates is a member) who I'd bet are being "tax efficient" while giving money to charities that would not need to exist if the government bothered to collect tax better and did it's job instead of accepting tax avoidance.

author: apis
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 27, 2019, 09:47:42 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on January 27, 2019, 08:33:49 pmTrue, but industry only pays for research that is very likely to be directly advantageous to them. Like in Sweden the car industry has been paying for engine research that helps improve performance, but no one in industry would pay for fusion research so that has to be tax payer financed if it's going to happen.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 27, 2019, 09:57:31 pm
content: Quote from: apis on January 27, 2019, 09:47:42 pmThat's notalwaysthe case - even if it often is the case.Another consideration is that funds from industry also pay for some fixed costs, thus freeing up "tax money" to be used for fundamental research.

author: raptor1956
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 27, 2019, 09:59:30 pm
content: Quote from: apis on January 27, 2019, 09:47:42 pmIt goes deeper than that ... President Eisenhower saw how useful the autobahn was and decided that the USA needed something similar. He began the interstate highway program that cost many billions of dollars but the economic impact was 10X that at least. Private industry or the investment of billionaires didn't build the national highways system, tax payers did and industry profited may times over. If building a highway system were up to private industry and billionaires you can bet that all such roads would have toll booths every few miles so they could get there ROI.For the leisure class the idea is that government is the problem and private industry is the answer -- the interstate highway system is but one example that destroys that argument.Brian

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 27, 2019, 10:04:24 pm
content: Big business always acts as though it is the root of all good and should be allowed to profiteer as much as possible tax free as thanks whilst making copious use of the countries tax payer funded infrastructure.Tax payer funded infrastructure is not built for profit but for the good of all as a necessity.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 27, 2019, 10:06:19 pm
content: Simon,That all changed on January 1, 1995.Now rich countries like ours aren't allowed to do the things charities do, unless they did them before that date,and didn't change anything. This is very important to understand.Otherwise, you're sailing blindly into a potentially huge disaster.Quote from: Simon on January 27, 2019, 09:23:55 pmThe governments have all set up new rules that say its not their jobs to help poor people out any more, itsthe market'sjob.

author: Gromitt
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 27, 2019, 10:46:11 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on January 26, 2019, 08:03:31 pmYes, that is correct. All IKEA R&D is still done in Älmhult in Sweden were IKEA started over 70 years ago.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 27, 2019, 11:11:32 pm
content: can people see this?I-S-D-S is the reason why some companies move,Investor vs. State Dispute Settlement givesmultinationalcompanies a right to sue countries in special courts set up exclusively for that purpose, under investment agreements, if they change any law or rule or any policy that has the effect of reducing the TNC's profits.Sometimes also trying to withdraw from an agreement triggers them. There may be multi year waiting periods, and demands for compensatory payments. The idea is to make countries unable to modify or even escape the terms they may have agreed to without fully understanding the implications or perhaps because of corruption. The cost - they may have to pay expected lost profits, may sometimes be so high it becomes impossible for a country to afford to leave, even if they cant afford to stay, either.Or sometimes, countries are sued for changing something they felt they needed to change. For example, Australia tried to require that tobacco companies add special warnings to their products that stated that they were dangerous and this triggered a long, extremely expensive ordeal battling this I ~ S ~ D ~ S in these special rigged courts. they eventually won, but only after spending a huge amount of money basicallydefending their right to have laws.Something similar happened to Slovakia when they tried to switch back to single payer health insurance after signing away their rights, again they won but only after a long, very expensive fight.

author: apis
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 27, 2019, 11:23:59 pm
content: Quote from: cdev on January 27, 2019, 11:11:32 pmStates only win right now because ISDS is still being considered for adoption and therefore is under scrutiny. A lot of pro ISDS people are angry that Philip Morris were stupid enough to sue Australia now since it gives ISDS a bad reputation. Once the ISDS system is permanently established it will be impossible for states to win in these private "courts".

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 27, 2019, 11:42:10 pm
content: Quote from: treez on January 27, 2019, 03:49:21 pmI didn't know they were manufacturing cars there, which is surprising. There are far cheaper places in Asia with cheaper labour and to sell to the EU tariff free, they'll need a facture in an EU state as well.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2019, 12:34:50 am
content: Quote from: treez on January 27, 2019, 08:13:41 pm1. Did you completely miss my big reply, where I mentioned Rolls-Royce?2. We're not talking about Rolls-Royce automobiles. We're talking about the aerospace and defense arm, the one that makes jet engines and the like. It's British.3. Again, are you worrying about foreign ownership, tax havens, or functional HQ being abroad? Or is this just another of your pointless whinges about British industry, in which you invent "facts" in your head that you then take as truths, despite being wholly untethered from reality?

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2019, 01:30:22 am
content: It has been used for decades, and dozens of FTAs incorporate it, You can read many case documents onhttps://italaw.com.Its truly evil. You must be confusing something else with investor vs. state. Maybe the EU proposal for an investment court which was basically still ISDS, not much of a change, not significant enough to not be a problem.Also seehttps://www.bilaterals.org/andhttps://isds.bilaterals.orgQuote from: apis on January 27, 2019, 11:23:59 pmJust read an interesting paper that discusses how specialized skills and tech mean global value chains are turning into a net killer of jobs not just in developed countries, also in the developing world. They are not the panacea or El Dorado they are represented as.https://drodrik.scholar.harvard.edu/files/dani-rodrik/files/new_technologies_global_value_chains_developing_economies.pdfThere are deep structural problems facing corporatism.

author: BradC
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2019, 01:43:42 am
content: Quote from: Simon on January 27, 2019, 09:23:55 pmPerhaps do some research on Rotary world wide before slighting an organisation that is mainly comprised of everyday people who tend towards doing a shitload of good worldwide.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2019, 02:37:37 am
content: We're headed towards a future where the main role of the state will be limiting anticompetitive behavior, so basically poor people will be on their own. Since governmental charity will be prohibited because its such a slippery slope (so many would need it) private charity will be very important. The cashless cities of tomorrow wont be open to those without means. Billions will largely exist on alms. The relatively wealthy buying what they can with their dwindling savings, the ever growing numbers with negative balances lives will be eaten up by unpayable ever growing debts. Its possible poor people might be pushed to the fringes of the human sphere, maybe Mars for example, or areas that are regularly submerged by flooding, places where life is hard and necessities costly. Massively polluted or radioactive areas. Places with extreme climates. Such is the 'magic' of the marketplace. This is the future where money is everything that we're building now.And we can bet, great pains will be taken to reduce the numbers of those deemed worthy of help.

author: CJay
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2019, 06:43:54 am
content: Quote from: tooki on January 28, 2019, 12:34:50 am2. Entirely my reason for citing Rolls Royce, Rolls Royce Holdings is British, but it doesn't fit with Treez' narrative where Dyson is the greatest company ever (because James Dyson once said hello to him)3. Pointless whinge which will lead to some random 'truth' being formed in his head.

author: apis
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2019, 09:34:46 am
content: Quote from: cdev on January 28, 2019, 01:30:22 amI know ISDS is already part of NAFTA and CETA for example. What I meant was that ISDS is currently under media scrutiny since it has been debated in the EU parliament in relation to TIPP (the free-trade agreement between the USA and the EU). (I don't have much hope that the commissions proposed "investment court" will solve the problems either, but it's kind of hard to tell since the details are unknown.)Those who like ISDS are angry at Philip Morris for suing Australia with such bad timing, since it exposes the problems with ISDS. So, of course, any investment tribunal that value ISDS (and their careers) is going to rule in favour of Australia in such a high profile case, in order to calm down the critics.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philip_Morris_International#AustraliaHowever, in general the arbitrators customers, i.e. the investors, are going to win in these tribunals (that doesn't answer to any democratic government). Put simply: 'the customer is always right'.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2019, 09:49:26 am
content: Quote from: BradC on January 28, 2019, 01:43:42 amSimon and I know Rotary very well. Yes, they do a lot of good, but it is true the main demographic is realatively well off people, who no doubt do very well at avoiding tax. One could argue that if the rich paid their taxes, then there would be less need for organisations such as Rotary.

author: CJay
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2019, 10:02:51 am
content: Quote from: Zero999 on January 28, 2019, 09:49:26 amIndeed, as do I, you can also throw the Masons in there too.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2019, 02:31:18 pm
content: Charities are oftenvery very inefficientin how they handle money given to them, many of them only spend a tiny portion of money they receive on the causes they are supposed to address, if any. Also, they function as a vehicle for the employment of wealthy people's children, by means of internships, unpaid jobs which many people cannot afford to take. Internships, like high skill low wage guest worker programs and visas, act as a costly screen preventing many young people from entering, in this case the NGO sector and other service sectors where internships are rife. (Media is another) . The result is that virtually no entry level paid jobs exist in them any more, the pipeline to decent jobs is closed to new entrants unlesstheycan work for free, in some cases for years. People leaving college with debt, however must start paying back student loans almost immediately. This creates an intentional bar to middle class students from entering these important portions of the economy (non-profits, media, and so on) where their real world experiences might do the most good.Therefore only people from wealthy backgrounds end up in the kinds of jobs where they are tasked with solving - or reporting on, social issues.I've been shocked at how pervasive the use of interns has become in the media. Some well known (YouTube especially) media organizations which one would think would pay their employees well are almost entirely staffed by interns who likely are paid almost nothing!This problem with internships and other unpaid or extremely low-paying forms of work, sometimes for years- becoming more and more necessary to get ones start in a new career is a very serious one. (one that is now spilling over into technical fields as well.) Interns are also vulnerable to abuse because they have invested in some cases years of time for what, for arecommendationthey can take to their next job?Most non-profits I would hope are not this bad, but some - its been my experience thatnot infrequently non-profits don't want to actually solve the problems they are supposed to be chartered to solve. They may even go to great lengths to be able to maintain that they were never aware of key problems, and so on. "Plausible deniability"? And of course, many politicians often do this too.Its extremely dishonest to solicit voters votes when you have no intention of doing or being what they elected you to do/be. So I dont get side tracked into that, I'll leave it there.

author: BradC
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2019, 10:51:37 pm
content: Quote from: Zero999 on January 28, 2019, 09:49:26 amMy experience with Rotary is in Australia, the UAE, Qatar, South Africa, USA and Denmark. In all of those cases a significant proportion of the work being done was in third world countries assisting with the development of things like hospitals, schools, higher education, vocational training and the like. Frankly I don't see in any of those cases how the "rich paying their taxes" in your country of reference is going to help in any way, shape or form.Just to be clear, I'm not a member. I have however volunteered on a few occasions where my skill set was of use (like in the triaging of surplus medical electronics being prepared to send to a hospital being upgraded in Cambodia, or a batch of second hand air-conditioners being prepared to be sent for a hospital in Afghanistan).

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2019, 11:30:50 pm
content: I hope I didn't sound like I was dissing the Rotary or any specific NGO! I didn't mean it that way. Certainly for people needing help, in countries of all kinds, it's better to have any help than no help.

author: raptor1956
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2019, 01:33:38 am
content: Quote from: cdev on January 28, 2019, 11:30:50 pmTrump has had to shut down a charity that was in operation for decades and contributed almost nothing to anyone but Trump. He used it as a tax scam, a money laundering scheme, and a checkbook to pay for 'things'. He may well be an exception, but I'd guess there's many like him.Brian

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2019, 02:58:07 am
content: "Culture of Impunity"Quote from: raptor1956 on January 29, 2019, 01:33:38 am

author: raptor1956
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2019, 04:17:47 am
content: Here's an article about Trump's ... "charity" ...https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/trump-agrees-to-shut-down-his-charity-amid-allegations-he-used-it-for-personal-and-political-benefit/2018/12/18/dd3f5030-021b-11e9-9122-82e98f91ee6f_story.html?utm_term=.d9682b0a0268https://www.forbes.com/sites/danalexander/2017/06/06/how-donald-trump-shifted-kids-cancer-charity-money-into-his-business/#4773556c6b4aBrian

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 29, 2019, 07:34:50 am
content: Quote from: BradC on January 28, 2019, 10:51:37 pmIf we want to be a bit more specific the particular Rotary club that I and Zero999 have had dealings with raise very little money of their own but some of their members are local councillors (lowest level local politician representing small sections of a town). These people have available to them "councillor empowerment grants" ie: My tax money that they can donate to a local cause of their choice, so they donate it to their own Rotary projects but never give credit to the fact that their work is down by recycled tax payer money and not money they have raised. They raise some money themselves but not that much. that is an isolated case of course but it shows how such organisations can degenerate at least in part.On the one hand it is great that people want to help others but having been involved with an international body like Rotary i take a very dim view on them and I would rather they simply knuckled down and paid their taxes and perhaps were more vocal towards the government to do the right thing. A charity will do a one off thing. A government will setup a system that lasts many years. Sure we have corrupt governments but that is what the rich need to be vocal about. All of these wealthy people that do grand standing donating are usually:1) dodging tax2) donating the money they would have paid in tax anyway so they lost nothing over it3) making a big fuss about it when in fact they are just depriving their fellow countrymen of the money needed to run their services.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 29, 2019, 07:37:40 am
content: Quote from: cdev on January 28, 2019, 02:31:18 pmYes most have highg flying CEO's paid more than our prime minister and will justify it by saying that they need the best to run their great charity and the opps a daisy we find out that a large proportion of their "aid workers" are just a bunch of sex offenders - case in point "save the children in the UK" not to mention the toppling castle of Jimmy Savel and the rest that came down with him.

author: BradC
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2019, 08:27:21 am
content: Quote from: Simon on January 29, 2019, 07:34:50 amI appreciate you clarifying that for me. Sounds like you guys have a nice set of council corruption to deal with.I can assure you Rotary isn't like that anywhere I've been, and so it piqued my interest when it's lumped in with "Charities" like World Vision or Save the Children.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 29, 2019, 08:34:30 am
content: Any charity is a loosely structured organisation that relies on member honesty to function. This is why invariably parts go wrong.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2019, 11:43:39 am
content: UK's 'Save the Children' produced the attached publication while John Hilary was working with them. (attached) Definitely worth reading.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 29, 2019, 12:45:55 pm
content: Save the children's CEO was and ex employee of Tony Blair and promptly gave Tony Blair an award for his humanitarian work - like starting a war based on lies that killed thousands of children unnecessarily!!!! this is my objection to charities. People think of them as forces for good and motivated by individuals will to sort problems out when in reality a charity is just a company that does not have to pay taxes and the big ones are as embedded in "the system" as any large company. I believe the top schools for our illustrious politicians are also charities........

author: ocset
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2019, 08:59:30 am
content: Thanks to all for replies.QuoteQuoteThroughout these posts, the collective count of large UK owned engineering companies that do their own electronics design came to four.1A...Rolls royce aerospace.1B...Rolls royce marine2...Dyson3...JCB4...BAE.....however, we are not sure if 3 and 4 actually do their own electronics design.This wee basket of four, is , as any Brit would agree, nowhere near enough to sustain a country of 80 million people, with a national debt of 2 trillion pounds and rising rapidly

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2019, 08:13:35 pm
content: Quote from: treez on February 16, 2019, 08:59:30 amI have no idea about #3, but #4 is a defense contractor — do you know anything at all about defense contractors? Their entireraison d'êtreis to be able to design and manufacture things that are classified or otherwise sensitive to national security. They can't just go subcontracting willy-nilly — they do subcontract, but it's done very carefully, and due to the nature of classified work, it typically requires employees to have security clearances, which is only doable within your country (or at most, with a country that is a close ally). So BAE's subcontractors, if any on a given project, will themselves be more likely than not to be British.Quote from: treez on February 16, 2019, 08:59:30 amDon't move the goalpost. The issue being discussed was this asinine claim of yours:Quote from: treez on January 26, 2019, 06:32:05 pmEmphasis mine. The size of the British electronics industry as a whole is not at issue. It's that you said Dyson is the last and biggest, and that's nonsense.

author: ocset
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2019, 09:33:23 pm
content: Thanks,BAE i believe subcontracted out the design/build of the T45 battleship (+ aircraft carrier) propulsion system to Alstom of France.Alstom used to use the large propulison system "dry land" testbed in UK in the small hours to do testing on the system so as to gain knowledge for their civil shipping fleet designs for their French customers.........this was harmless to UK, since the testbed was there anyway...but effectively it meant that the British MOD was funding Alstoms R&D for their lucrative civilian shipping division for their French customers......and shows what a bunch of mugs us Brits were taken for in this episode.Also, Dyson is nearly the biggest electronics design co in UK...with only BAE and RollsRoyce ahead of it.

author: MT
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2019, 04:39:06 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on January 27, 2019, 10:04:24 pmThen wasted by politicians coming from the sheepless masses voted in by the dumb sheepless masses who then complains about them wasting their tax money who anyway is just a fiat currency printed by some banksters at close to 0 cost, drenching all but the 1%'ers in austerity and debt.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2019, 05:13:05 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on January 27, 2019, 10:04:24 pmWhen I was a kid, in the 60s, quite a lot of things in the UK were built by DLOs - Direct Labour Organisations - which were construction operations run by councils or the central government. Those days are long gone. All UK infrastructure is now built by commercial operations, and they do it for profit.

author: doobedoobedo
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2019, 09:29:03 pm
content: Quote from: treez on February 16, 2019, 09:33:23 pmYou're not British, you're not even a native English speaker. You may fool some, but you have no credibility pretending to be something you're not.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2019, 09:39:54 pm
content: Quote from: doobedoobedo on February 19, 2019, 09:29:03 pmYou might be wrong there. Treez has not exactly kept his real name, affiliations etc. a secret around here. He looks to be quite British indeed.

author: doobedoobedo
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2019, 10:13:37 pm
content: Quote from: ebastler on February 19, 2019, 09:39:54 pmSo you're fooled then. He's not a native speaker - very, very obvious to a native speaker. He uses Eastern European phrasing. He's also sort of admitted ithttps://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/do-you-agree-this-is-how-to-approach-an-electronics-degree-in-uk/msg1449382/#msg1449382but due to the fact that he lies about who he is I'd take anything he says with a large pinch of salt.

author: Buriedcode
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 20, 2019, 12:09:41 am
content: Why does it matter?

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 20, 2019, 01:11:39 am
content: Quote from: doobedoobedo on February 19, 2019, 10:13:37 pmOh puh-leez… there are tons of native speakers whose writing is atrocious. I had a roommate years ago (native, monolingual English speaker) whose spoken English was great, but whose dysgraphia caused his written English to be barely intelligible. And yes, it'd affect structure, too.

author: doobedoobedo
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 20, 2019, 01:14:00 am
content: Quote from: Buriedcode on February 20, 2019, 12:09:41 amI have an aversion to bullshit.

author: doobedoobedo
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 20, 2019, 01:17:18 am
content: Quote from: tooki on February 20, 2019, 01:11:39 amHis writing is actually quite good. He just phrases things in a way that no native speaker would. Look up shibboleth.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 20, 2019, 01:46:29 am
content: Quote from: doobedoobedo on February 20, 2019, 01:17:18 amAs a native English speaker a) who has worked as a professional technical writer, and b) whose own mother is a retired ESL teacher, I disagree. I see lots of careless mistakes and what I consider not especially great writing, but it still comes across as fundamentally native, to me at the very least. Not saying you're definitively wrong, but I don't get the feel of it being non-native.Not that it matters either way. Treez' discussions have a way of being huge time sinks, but the wording used has nothing whatsoever to do with that, making your accusation nothing but a below-the-belt ad hominem attack.

author: doobedoobedo
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 20, 2019, 10:45:48 am
content: As someone who worked all over Europe for many years. I can tell you he writes with an Eastern European accent. His writing is fine for someone who isn't a native speaker of the language. He's perfectly understandable if a little stilted in places.As for Ad-hominem:Quote from: The DictionaryThe position that he is maintaining is that he's British - I beg to differ.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 20, 2019, 11:11:12 am
content: Quote from: doobedoobedo on February 20, 2019, 10:45:48 amI am not going to "dox" treez here, but am quite sure that he has an English name and education, and is a British citizen residing in England. Your linguistic skills might not be as strong as you think; my reading comprehension and Googling skills are serviceable enough.

author: doobedoobedo
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 20, 2019, 11:53:53 am
content: You are of course welcome to your opinion.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 20, 2019, 01:23:13 pm
content: Quote from: doobedoobedo on February 20, 2019, 10:45:48 amExcept that we know he is a native speaker, so your guess is wrong.Quote from: doobedoobedo on February 20, 2019, 10:45:48 amExcept that his nationality isn’t even relevant to the discussion, so belaboring the point is an ad hominem attack. The “position” at issue isn’t his nationality, but the views on British industry.

author: Wolfgang
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 20, 2019, 01:32:57 pm
content: ... academic fights are so fierce because stakes are so low.

author: doobedoobedo
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 20, 2019, 02:58:58 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on February 20, 2019, 01:23:13 pmSo you nowknowhe's a native speaker. OK.If his nationality isn't relevant then he shouldn't have brought it up. But as far as I'm concerned there is no point to discussing this. No-one is going to change my mind on here. It's very obvious he's not a native English speaker. I'm just calling his BS on that one point.I don't know enough about the rest of the thread to comment on it, but if someone feels the need to lie about who they are, anything else they may say doesn't hold much sway with me.

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 20, 2019, 07:11:59 pm
content: You clearly haven't followed all of his dodgy threads over the past couple of years relating to neophyte LED lighting product design issues. I remember the cheapskate UK LED lighting company that he works for (is that worked for by now?) was fairly easily deduced.He's clearly British, or at least long resident here. I kind of wish he wasn't, he hasn't exactly been a positive advertisement for our design skills, but so be it.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 20, 2019, 07:23:56 pm
content: Quote from: doobedoobedo on February 20, 2019, 02:58:58 pmYes, while you don't. Frustrating, isn't it?QuoteThis is what makes the whole, stupid nationality discussion somewhat relevant here. You are putting treez down based on an assumption which is incorrect. There are many reasons to argue with treez, and I certainly don't share many of his points of view. But your "reason" is an invalid one.

author: doobedoobedo
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 20, 2019, 07:27:30 pm
content: No I've seen most of his threads (and yes they're all dodgy). He may well have moved to this country a few years ago, but that doesn't make him a native or even a citizen. Frequently claiming to be doesn't either.I feel a car analogy coming onhttp://superunleaded.com/replica-ferrari-f40-makes-us-sad-sad/4750/

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 20, 2019, 07:35:29 pm
content: P.S. Reading beck through your own posts, your ownpositive technical contributionsto the forum seem to be very few and far between (not to mention a fair bit of Treez baiting). Maybe attempting to contribute more in that direction would make you feel better about yourself and others.

author: ocset
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2019, 12:30:59 am
content: Thread #106 predicted Dyson's electric car business "going South" sooner or later.There just arent enough electric power engineers in UK to fulfil something like that.China has some 1000's more such engineers than UK....moving to Singapore to try for the Far Eastern market with electric cars didnt make immediate sense.Any Dyson Electric car engineers here will post their version of events?And will the Dyson HQ move back to UK now?....or will it stay there, in the hope of commencing talks with a Far East Asian buyer?

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2019, 12:45:01 am
content: Can you think of any reason why Dyson would want to return to the UK? I don't see how their abandoning the car market would change the logic of migrating to Asia.

author: ocset
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2019, 09:31:26 am
content: Thanks, i hear what you say......and i know that Far East Asia has far more engineers than UK does.....Engineers who work in the general area of Dyson's products...therefore, it is now virtually certain that Dyson will be sold off to Far East Asia. The move to Asia was just a pre-cursor.The Revive British Industry campaign has highlighted the sell-offs of British industry overseas, and how UK will soon be left destitute. Dyson is next up to go. We saw ARM go recently. And many others.I will resist the temptation to post the Revive British Industry website, which is on Wix.James Dyson came up with the marvellous bagless vac + dual cyclone idea, and then followed it with brilliant products such as the hand-dryer and hairdryer. But Dyson is in UK, and does not have the huge number of electronics hardware engineers available to it in order to be able to compete in the general consumer electronics arena. Dyson would need to have a constant stream of highly innovative products to survive, and most people, even brilliant ones like Sir James Dyson, only have a few great innovations in them for their one lifetime.I fear the worst.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2019, 02:37:08 pm
content: At this rate, we europeans will end up being third-world countries.The only industry left will eventually just be plants to manufacture locally products from asian countries for the local markets.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2019, 04:15:49 pm
content: Has it crossed anyone’s mind that Dyson‘s reason for moving his corporation to Singapore is *tax breaks*? I don’t think it has anything to do with engineering talent. He has now moved his personal financial trust there, at the same time he announced the cancellation of the car „project“. Obviously a purely financial deal with the Singapore authorities.

author: ocset
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2019, 05:46:01 pm
content: QuoteI don’t think so….this is because the EU has recently come up with a great idea….the idea is to make all products, especially electronics containing ones, made of components that do not fail early, or if they do, they can be easily fixed if sent back to the manufacturer…this will end Chinese electronics imports to the EU, and the EU will wisely take charge of designing and producing all of its consumer electronics products.This is a master stroke by the EU… which will bring it great prosperity.Its almost as if the EU has been reading the Revive British Industry website, because that is one of its goals.Here you can read yourself…because this is what the EU essentially, are now doing…..its along these lines….https://massey276.wixsite.com/government

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2019, 06:11:58 pm
content: Quote from: treez on October 12, 2019, 09:31:26 amSo you didn't resist the temptation to post (your own) websiteforlink again for long then!QuoteI have nothing but contempt for somebody who pushed the Brexit line so vocally while at the same time planning to 'offshore' his own business! He's as bad as Farage ensuring that his own kids have German passports.P.S. There is nothing "marvellous" about applying, the already widely used cyclone or venturi effects. Lest we forget the bogging down ball wheelbarrow, or the counter-rotating washing machine drum that shredded peoples' clothes.

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2019, 07:40:46 pm
content: I'm not buying this bullshit myth of a shortage of engineers. If it was true, OP could have a new job in minutes.It looks Dyson failed on the car effort across many fronts, mainly due to his ego. They pissed off the car parts makers, making small changes and trying to patent that.“They are trying to impose Dyson’s culture on the automotive industry,” one of the recently departed employees said."You don’t build cars the same way you build a vacuum cleaner.”And going for Apple pricing on a EV, like the way they price $599 plastic vacuum cleaner.https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2019-10-11/dyson-s-expensive-road-from-electric-to-invisible-carshttps://www.dyson.co.uk/automotive.html

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2019, 07:51:07 pm
content: There's no shortage of engineers, there's a shortage of *good* engineers. But the thing is, the good engineers tend to migrate to the jobs that pay decently.Dyson wants EE's on 39 hour weeks (excl lunch breaks) and unpaid overtime is expected. Plus they will pay you 15% below the market average for an EE role. (I was offered £36k to work with them when my current job in the North of England pays about that, and Malmesbury is *not* a cheap place to live in.) This just isn't compatible with attracting great talent.Dyson is an egotist. He gets *very* upset if you don't greet him personally if you bump into him in the lift, or he walks past you. He's an arrogant prick too, from what I've heard from other engineers. And Dyson is a cheapskate essentially, he pays his engineers pennies, his products are engineered to within a penny of their life, and they end up in landfill before their fifth birthday. The labs are worn down, with old equipment and broken tools, the network infrastructure is slow, and he has a few fighter jets in the carpark which means there's even less parking (there just isn't space for that many engineers in such a small place.)I seriously have to ask why Dyson thought he could compete with the big boys in the automotive sector. But in automotive, reliability is pretty much the number one thing. If someone is spending £30k on their car, especially if it is an EV which will generally attract more value-oriented "stretch" buyers*, they don't want it in the maintenance department for a new HV pack at year four and new motor bearings by year five. Tesla learned this the hard way -- Model 3 is *hugely* better than Model S in terms of build for reliability. I highly doubt this is compatible with Dyson's ethos.*I recall a statistic that showed more than half of Calfornian Model S drivers previously owned a Prius. For them, buying an $80k EV was a huge financial stretch.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2019, 08:22:06 pm
content: Quote from: blueskull on October 12, 2019, 08:11:27 pmBosch/Siemens has decent vacuum cleaners which last very long. I'm still using the one I bought over 20 years ago.

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2019, 08:41:57 pm
content: Dyson has a slew ofalmost 7,000 patentsto stop competition. Three pending just for a car vent. He seems to have the fluid dynamics better engineered and is known as Big Bully Co. using patent litigation to stomp out competitors.The vac - it's just a BLDC blower fan and battery, that is sitting there doing nothing in the storage closet for most of its life. Paying $599 and it might last 5 years, I didn't buy it.I have a 1955 made in America vac, all metal, water filtration and does not spew out fine dust to aggravate allergies- that is why I keep it going. In 64 years it's needed new brushes and a line cord. Health is more important than plastic cyclonic bagless cheapness.

author: ocset
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2019, 09:12:49 pm
content: QuoteThanks, its good to hear your opinion.I must admit, i worked as a contractor for Dyson in about 2015 or so.There was loads of car parking. It was my equal best ever paying job at £40/hour (better than the other 31 co's where ive worked)I saw Sir James Dyson in the corridor some 10 metres ahead of me once at approx 20:00 hrs , and he nodded to me, before heading off down another corridor, which i thought was polite...he could have just ignored me.The working hours were no more than anywhere else ive worked.I like his "stick" vac....they had them in the labs there, and i used to severly abuse it to test it, (make it pick up big pieces of metal etc) and it always came up trumps.They have a very nice canteen, and other nice coffee and snack bars....very very tasty bacon sandwich each morning...and not smothered in fat.They gave me a laptop whilst i was there....this was small and easily carryable...i used to take it up to the labs with me.....i would always be on the internet because the company wifi was excellent.I didnt go in the locked labs, but the big open lab where i worked sometimes was fine.I liked the big open spaces at Dyson, and the fact that when you went to the loo, you had to walk some at least 50 metres or so...which is a good break when youve been sat down doing calculations etc.His toilets had the "dunk 'em once" hand dryers in them...which i thought were excellent.Malmesbury isnt cheap...but nowhere South of approximately Birmingham is cheap in UK.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2019, 09:45:22 pm
content: Quote from: treez on October 12, 2019, 05:46:01 pmAre you serious, or is this some kind of cynical joke?Because if you seriously believe in the above, you're probably on strong medication.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2019, 10:46:05 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on October 12, 2019, 09:45:22 pmtreezis serious about that. Other people might think he is less than serious.QuoteOr should be on strong medication

author: ocset
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2019, 11:50:04 am
content: Here are details on the EU proposal to make all electronics consumer products more efficient and repairable...this will inevitably mean they end up being designed and manufactured in the EU....https://www.businessgreen.com/bg/news-analysis/3082144/eu-right-to-repair-product-rules-should-inspire-the-rest-of-the-worldhttps://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-46797396

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2019, 12:41:00 pm
content: Quote from: treez on October 12, 2019, 05:46:01 pmAgree, also the consumers must be forced by law, to buy only products that are produced at EU, and also at the "right" price that "must" support and sustain the EU manufacturers, and put an ultra tight regulation to blockade the damn Far East imports, and all will live happily ever after, the end.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2019, 02:13:45 pm
content: Quote from: BravoV on October 13, 2019, 12:41:00 pmYes!! That approach has workedsowell for Brazil! 😂

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2019, 02:53:26 pm
content: Quote from: treez on October 13, 2019, 11:50:04 amOh, really?

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2019, 03:05:44 pm
content: Quote from: treez on October 13, 2019, 11:50:04 amEurope's design community is far weaker than it used to be, except, perhaps, for Germany. China has a massive design community, and excellent systems in place for fast turnaround of both prototypes and volume production. Who is likely to be first to market with products complying with any new requirement? What if you try direct blocks on things made in China? The Chinese are already setting up lots of production sites in places like Vietnam and Indonesia, where they can produce for the EU. What if you try creating made in the EU rules? China will just set up more assembly shops in the cheapest regions of the EU, probably working from sub-assemblies made in Vietnam to minimise costs. What if the EU tries to keep everything foreign out? Europe would really need to up its game in the component business, as it now makes so few basic components. If you don't take manufacturing seriously for a long time, its very hard to make your way back.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2019, 03:48:56 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on October 13, 2019, 03:05:44 pmIt has never done that, and will never. It would be against the free trade rules that it heavily promotes, and not just within the EU either. Thinking the latter is a big, but frequent misconception.So it's just not going to happen.Has any previous EU directive prevented goods from Asia to be imported? Not really. I really don't see why this one would, and as I just said, if it ever did, we would just have to half-close our eyes (just like we've done with many chinese products that are NOT compliant with EU directives, but claim to be), and move on as if nothing had happened.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2019, 04:31:11 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on October 13, 2019, 03:48:56 pmOf course the EU would never do that. I was just trying to cover all the options. Keeping foreign stuff out would cause immediate retaliation. Germany has far too much invested in China to allow that.

author: Buriedcode
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2019, 05:07:17 pm
content: Quote from: treez on October 13, 2019, 11:50:04 amWhy is that inevitable? I don't see that leap you just made.

author: ocset
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2019, 07:20:45 pm
content: QuoteIf the EU will be concerned about the contents of the products, and wishes to impact on their design, then they will need the factories to be in the EU...so that they can check up on them.....also, if stuff has to be sent back for repair, it cannot be sent to and from China, its just too expensive.The Chinese will not be interested in the lower margins that they will get from higher quality products, with greater regulatory control, and the need to repair and return stuff. And if it was made in China, how would the EU know they were "repairing and returning", rather than just shipping more new stuff?The EU also wants its own Army, and these days Military hardware centres on electronics...if the EU want to have the ability to have better electronics, then they will need to bring the basic consumer electroncis design stuff back to the EU.This is the reason...as the following exerpt from the Revive British Industry campaign shows...https://massey276.wixsite.com/revive...you just cannot have the high end electronics if you abandon the low end stuff like eg basic SMPS design for consumer products.,.,......it just doesnt work like that.The EU knows that the UK has abandoned consumer electronics and leaves it to the Far East....and consequently, the UK is now not capable of buiilding the electric motors and Drives for its new Naval destroyers and its new Aircraft Carrier....the motors and drives for these are built by the French by Alstom Marine. If the UK goes to war, we have to hope the French engineers will be willing to come along with us.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2019, 08:56:49 pm
content: Quote from: treez on October 13, 2019, 07:20:45 pmThat's nonsense. Most engineers who have only developed high end electronics have skills which work fine for those types of product, but have no idea how to be competitive with low end stuff. Driving every last cent out of the BOM is far more critical in low end designs, and is a skill set in itself.

author: ocset
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2019, 07:30:08 pm
content: Quote..as we have seen from the above, the EU are about to stop this penny pinching, and will enforce responsible manufacture, and build-for-easy-repair.The environment matters to them, so no more cheap electrolytics that will fail early, or cheap fans, etc etc.By the way, the UK's entire electric naval fleet is powered by motors and drives designed and built by the French, and this prooves that dropping the simple end of electronics, means the entirity of electronics gets hit. The simple electronics jobs are needed so that you get enough folks in through the doors of the electronics courses in the first place in UK. (and everywhere else, but i speak of UK because we have dropped home design and manufacture more than most other countries.....we absolutely fill our boots on whoever flogs it cheapest).We are absolute capitalists......we try and kill off even our own British competitors......not so in USA...i used to work for Ecco group, and major Yank electronics co's woudl bust a gut to work with us even if our products failed for them...they woudl stick with us till we fixed it up.......they would loose money themselves to help a fellow Yank......its this kind of comraderie that is lacking in UK.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2019, 08:56:09 pm
content: Quote from: treez on October 17, 2019, 07:30:08 pmI am still at a loss where you got that second aspect from. I am aware of discussions to make products easier to repair, and to disassemble for proper recycling when they have reached the end of their useful life. Which is already a requirement of the original WEEE directive, but apparently shall be made more stringent.So the initiative seems to be about using screws instead of glued and sealed components. But where does it state that the MTBF of products shall be extended? Don't get me wrong; I would appreciate such a directive -- but I am not aware of one.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2019, 09:32:12 pm
content: Quote from: treez on October 17, 2019, 07:30:08 pmPerhaps. Design for repair doesn't inherently increase costs. More often you can keep similar costs, but reliability suffers. That's often a better formula for sales success than increasing costs. Its pretty useless improving design for repair in most consumer products. They aren't worth enough to make repair a sane option. If you take most simple consumer electronics back to the supplier with a fault, they throw it in the bin and give you a new one. This is most often because its too expensive to repair, rather than unrepairable. What is the cost of simply having a competent person open something up, to try to figure out what has gone wrong? The EU can't change that.What the EU can and should do is demand that the information and parts which allow a manufacturer's own staff to repair high value things (TVs, cameras, phones, etc) be made available at reasonable cost, to permit competitive repair. Right now too many expensive products, which are very repairable, go in the bin when they fail outside warranty, because the maker sets a very high price for any repairs. This would not change how and where products are made.Quote from: treez on October 17, 2019, 07:30:08 pmReally? I haven't seen a single move from the EU that shows concern for the environment. They are very concerned about doing what looks good for the next election cycle. How on Earth could they regulate against cheap electrolytics and cheap fans without really draconian practices that would destroy the last remains of European consumer electronics manufacture? Parts like electrolytics impact the life of products less now than in the past, because its all about heat. Most modern electronics takes less power and runs cooler than in previous decades.Quote from: treez on October 17, 2019, 07:30:08 pmThis is merely an assertion. The RAF is getting most of its new engines from Pratt and Whitney, despite the technical prowess of Rolls Royce. It just works out that Rolls Royce don't have the right products at the right time to be a fit for the F35.Quote from: treez on October 17, 2019, 07:30:08 pmThe UK hasn't really dropped simple electronics jobs any more than most other western countries. What separates western countries is how much of the advanced stuff, like silicon design, they still do. The US, Germany and Japan still keep a lot of this advanced work on shore, although they are setting up more and more design centres in Asia.Quote from: treez on October 17, 2019, 07:30:08 pmYou must have worked with a very relaxed set of US companies. They are generally brutal in beating each other up over costs, which is how they stay lean, and competitive and in business. If British companies had acted in a more aggressive manner over the last half century there might be more of them still around.