camera format vs gun format - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: artag
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 09, 2024, 12:38:19 am
content: Anybody got any comments on the relative goodness of the gun format (small screen trigger handle) versus the camera/tablet format (larger screen like an organiser or phone) ?Intended use is mainly as a bench device for analysing circuit boards.

author: DaJMasta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 09, 2024, 04:13:57 pm
content: I don't know if either will make a difference. The thermal image will be lower resolution than the screen, you'll be physically close to the screen (size matters less), and neither has the camera at a right angle to the viewing axis of the screen (allowing for hands-free inspection of boards with a supporting arm). If it were me, the versatility of a single handed unit is my preference (though not for bench reasons), but I would assume the larger format would make for easier to use menus.My advice? Get the cheaper one if everything else is the same.

author: artag
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 09, 2024, 09:30:42 pm
content: I was trying to see what the downside of the camera format is. Most popular thermal cameras are the gun style, but no visible-light cameras are in that format except ancient bolex movie cameras, which are held to the eye.You've perhaps explained it by saying the one-handed gun format is more versatile but it puzzles me.

author: Bill W
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 09, 2024, 09:59:07 pm
content: The 'visible' camera format is so you can hold it steady and avoid shake in an image with a very low angle-per-pixel. You are not (usually) using the camera just to look at the picture live - although some wildlife photography you might. There's also often more adjustments to make so calling for both hands.With a thermal camera you are looking at the screen a lot more, as it is showing you things you cannot otherwise see, and generally not fiddling with controls. If you do, the 'gun' format is indeed a bit of a pain. The 'gun' format in thermal is perhaps also skewed by 'Chinese copyism', if you lump all the Chinese camera as one copy of FLIR, the format dominance changes a bit.Bill

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 09, 2024, 10:41:23 pm
content: Camera case format is an interesting topic when it comes to thermal i aging. It is often “horses fpr courses” and personal preference, but I shall list some pertinent points……1. Traditional visible light film cameras were commonly the rectangular box with a lens sticking out the front and normally held with both hands to reduce image blur due to hand shake. This was a stable hold format for which the cameras box style case style was well suited. Once digital cameras became common, they offered a variety of case formats to tempt the user. There were, of course, the traditiona rectangular boxes but with digital and optical image stabilisation, single hand hold camera formats appeared on the market. These could take many forms now so the traditional rectangular box design is basically just one of many case formats offered to users. That said, it is interesting that the traditional case format faired well against the competition and just became more hand hold ergonomic or smaller in size. The problem with single hand holding this format of camera is the ease with which it can slip out of the hand and the difficulty with which the controls may be operated whilst trying not to drop it ! So these cameras remain better suited to a two hand hold.2. The mobile phone camera has become an extremely common format as users like to always have it available to them and the integration into a mobile phone casing has been a real success story with all manner of clever technology used for great looking pictures. The challenge with a mobile phone camera can be finding a comfortable hold method. The phones can be compact of large and can suffer from the “slippery soap” problem that leads to them being dropped. There are various options to add a selfie stick or “pistol grip” hand hold to a mobile phone to ease use. These accessories were created and sold because there was a need for them. Mobile phone based cameras can be less than ergonomic to hold, either one handed or with a two handed hold.3. Products that needed to be “aimed” accurately often use the “pistol grip” format. This offers ease of holding and aiming with a low chance of being dropped as a firm grip is possible. Single handed and two handed grips are possible. Think about pistols and how they may be held and you get the idea. The pistol grip format also permits the index finger and thumb to activate functions. In the case of a pistol it is the thumb for safety and index finger for firing the weapon. The “pistol grip” format offers great stability, excellent grip and it allows the user to move their index finger and thumb without the risk of dropping the unit.4. The Binocular format of two lens tubes mounted side by side and a nominal two handed hold have been around for many years. As binocular long range imaging benefits from being held steady it is no surprise to find that the format encourages the user to use two hands to grip the lens barrels. With larger binoculars there is also the benefit of two arms supporting what can be significant weight.5. The monocular is basically a tube that contains lenses and this is easily held in one hand if light in weight and short in length. If the weight and/or length increases, there will be a point at which two hands are required to steady the monocular/telescope.6. The Camcorder and Palmcorder case format has proven very versatile and may often be held with one hand or two hands, close to the users face (EVF) or at a distance (LCD panel display). Such units were often designed to be very ergonomic with regularly used controls easily reached with fingers and the thumb. To counter the risk of dropping the users hand grips the casing but a strap secures the camera to the users hand. This is a very good case format for cameras that use an EVF for their display and they normally sit well in the hand thanks to ergonomically sculpted hand holds in the casing.So what has all of the above got to do with the OP’s question ? It highlights that there are different hand holding formats found in the world of optical imaging, be it photography, observation, laser speed cameras or thermal imaging ! Which one is best is open to debate and often dictated by the specific needs of the end user or the technology being employed. I have used thermal imaging cameras from each of the above case formats and they most definitely have their pro’s and cons that can make them great for some tasks and unsatisfactory for others. Now the OP has stated that they intend to use a thermal camera for PCB analysis and this is indeed a common use of the technology and I have some experience of that use case. I will share some thoughts in this specific use of a thermal camera….1. Many commercial thermal cameras for PCB analysis take the form of a stand holding the thermal camera directly above the PCB and imaging an area of the PCB at close range, or the whole PCB at greater range. Close-up lenses may be employed in some cases but many such cameras have adjustable focus that permits easy height setting for best view and then fine tuning of focus. The focus is often hand adjustable and is easy to do as the camera is held rigidly in a stand. Obtaining comparison images from multiple PCB’s is simple as the camera is static and the PCB’s may be simply swapped out from below the camera. Everything is held in place and stable. This is important in some PCB analysis cases. The display in such PCB analysis systems is normally either angled towards the user or completely separate from the camera, such as the use of a laptop or tablet computer.2. Mounting any thermal camera on a suitable stand or support arm will increase its usefulness for PCB work in many cases. The camera can be stationary with focus set, whilst the PCB may be moved as needed. There will always be the challenge of the display not being at the optimal angle for the user to view unless an external display option exists.3. Hand holding a thermal camera for inspecting a PCB can be the quick and simple way to look for thermal anomalies as the PCB is either viewed in its entirety or in sections. The focus of the camera may be fixed, manual, true autofocus or set by a particular close-up lens. The challenge can be depth of field and the handholding can become tiresome with small depths of field where the image keeps going in and out of good focus. That said, the focus may be adequate for many PCB repair investigations as they tend to be quick and exact focus is not always essential in the preliminary search phase. The challenge with hand holding a thermal camera is the case ergonomics. In the case of a mobile phone case format (mini tablet style) the user has to hold the camera whilst not obscuring the display and yet be able to adjust settings as needed… all without dropping the camera. A pistol grip case format is easy to hold with a low risk of being dropped, and the settings may be adjusted with a simple thumb movement in many cases. The Binocular and Monocular case formats are less commonly used for PCB inspection and are more common in observation or search roles such as law enforcement and fire fighting. I remain surprised that few thermal imaging cameras used the camcorder format that offered great versatility with an EVF and LCD display panel viewing option. FLIR did produce some camcorder case format industrial cameras but preferred to offer pistol grip case formats to consumers. The camcorder case format can be well suited to both hand holding and bench mounting as the LCD display panel was sometimes provided and could be adjusted for best viewing angle.It could be argued that hand held imaging of PCB’s suits the electronics repair industry and bench mounted static imaging using a stand is more common in research applications where image captures and comparisons are more common. Hand holding a thermal camera permits the user to view a PCB at many angles with ease and speed. The only issue with such is the users ability to grip the camera with confidence that they will not drop it whilst manoeuvring around the PCB. I personally prefer the pistol grip case format for it’s ease of holding at all angles. That said, the handle might get in the way for some low angle imaging but there is the option to invert the camera in such scenarios.I think I have written enough for now but if someone asked me which case format I would recommend for a general use thermal camera that might also be used for PCB inspection work, I would say buy a “pistol grip” type camera format plus maybe a articulated arm mount to hold the camera steady over a bench for occasions when you want both hands free or to compare PCB thermal profiles. If the camera also offers video streaming to a larger screened computer, phone or tablet that would also be a benefit for bench working. Image analysis software availability may also be a factor in the buying decision. Now if someone said they needed a camera mainly for PCB analysis, but that was not crazy expensive, I would have to point them in the direction of dongle type thermal cameras that mount on mobile phones. Why ? Well such dongle cameras may be easily mounted on a bench stand with an extension cable enabling convenient positioning of the display (phone). For handheld use, the dongle may be attached directly to the phone and I would recommend a pistol grip style phone holder for ease of use. The small dongle cameras can be very versatile and some come with a close-up lens option or manual focus. The latest dongle format cameras are now so small that they can image inside equipment casings or other confined spaces. You just use them with a USB extension cable. Look at my Infiray P2 Pro review to see the different mounting options I investigated. If you do not have a suitable phone, it is worth buying a used one, especially if it has a fault that prevents its use as a phone but is otherwise working OK = very inexpensive.Hope this helpsFraser

author: artag
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2024, 01:35:46 am
content: Quote from: Fraser on July 09, 2024, 10:41:23 pmThanks, Fraser - very thorough reply !

author: artag
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 12, 2024, 10:21:23 am
content: I had rejected the idea of a phone accessory even though the P2 Pro is very attractive as an object. I have previously had a Seek Compact and found it annoying to use due to the physical arrangement and it was hard to use on a PC. However the infiray core devices do seem to have UVC compatible data and look like working with Linux or on a tablet (the seek device would bizarrely only work on a phone, not an android tablet).I found the Topdon TS001. This is fairly new and I can't see any mention of it here but it appears to be the TD001 with manual focus and a clip arrangement to fit it to the phone. They're expensive compared to TD001 but I found a used one - waiting for it to arrive. I hope to use it with Redux software or a tablet as I rarely use Windows and a phone is inconvenient, though that clip will help.The one that appealed most was actually the Hikmicro Pocket2 for it's features and overall style. But maybe this will do for now until the next resolution increase makes its way into the cheaper options.

author: arjen
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2024, 12:55:52 pm
content: I’ve used both types for bench work. Personally, I prefer the tablet format because the bigger screen makes it easier to see details on circuit boards. But if you’re looking for something more compact and comfortable to hold for long periods, the gun-style format might be better.