Texas Instruments to Hobbyists: No soup for you! - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: mtdoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2014, 11:35:25 pm
content: Got this email below from TI today. I guess the hobbyist sample gravy train is done. Seems shortsighted to me. I have only requested samples from them twice but I know others do it regularly. I wonder if they'll accept my work .org email address?

author: marshallh
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 25, 2014, 12:14:44 am
content: easy, register yourname.com and use it for the emails

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2014, 12:39:33 am
content: Although if you're going to the trouble of registering a domain (>$12/yr?) plus email, you might as well order a handful from Digikey...Tim

author: SirNick
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2014, 01:19:07 am
content: I'm not surprised. I've never worked for a silicon vendor, but I do assume they were never meant to be the source of free / cheap parts for hobbyists. They're called "samples" for a reason -- you're meant to buy something if they work out for you. 1-off projects pretty much preclude that from ever happening.I know many will disagree, but IMO, "hobbyist use" was a bit of an abuse of the system, unless they specifically advised otherwise.

author: tesla500
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2014, 01:20:08 am
content: I never really understood the point of free samples. They primarily target businesses, yet in a business, the time and money (possible custom PCB etc.) required to evaluate a sample is orders of magnitude greater than the cost of just ordering the sample from a distributor. And for really expensive parts where it would make a difference, samples aren't offered.What's the point?

author: mtdoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2014, 01:22:46 am
content: Easy ways around it for sure. For the occasional part it's not worth the effort. Ironically, it would be worth the effort for those apt to abuse it with lots of sample requests.

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2014, 01:29:49 am
content: Silly to do free samples, I never once use that. But I do get into their special offerings where you pay for pretty much sample parts but way cheap.Even if I ordered those discounted samples direct from them I didn't get that e-mail you got yet (or maybe it only applies to actual free samples).My take on free samples is that it's for companies that an engineer is curious on some new part and if he can get his project green lit it might become a substantial order for the vendor that offered the free sample in the first place.

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2014, 03:21:50 am
content: Free samples work wonderful to establish relationships. If ADI gives me a free PLL chip for my high frequency clock source prototype, when it is time for me to look for an ADC, guess who I will check first to buy one from , ADI or TI ?Also another example, while not exactly about free stuff but about relationships. Many years ago I decided to buy a new car. I walked in to a Honda dealership and the sales guy told me sort of it does not necessarily they will be willing to sell me one, until they check my criminal records, my financial status, my this and my that. I said fine, walked out and went to a Toyota dealership across the road and made a deal there with no stupid conditions. Guess what, since then many years have passed and I am on my 3rd car now and all my 3 cars were Toyotas. I never bothered checking Honda anymore after that case when they damaged relationships with me by treating me badly.So yes, it may not seem obvious but free samples help get customer's feet at your door through establishing trust and relationships. Minicircuits has just resurrected free samples program after they stopped it years back. Do not you think there was a reason for them to start doing it again.

author: Macbeth
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2014, 03:43:41 am
content: I would get free samples myself too. What got me was instead of them just sending a few dollars (or even cents) worth of chips, the companies insisted on sending them in ridiculous over the top ESD packaging, plastic flip boxes, acoustic foam and UPS or DHL next day international delivery!!!Clearly it's some marketing knob jockey that decides to send the free samples out with all the bells and whistles. All I could see when my 2 x $1.50 IC's or whatever turned up in this elaborate package, complete with uniformed courier expecting a signature for delivery, rather than it just turning up in regular post in my letterbox a couple of days later, is a company that is going down the drain.

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2014, 03:52:52 am
content: They are not setup for one offs, it will cost them more in changing their infrastructure than to just ship those big packages where filling up an order is probably automated. Put actual hands on and it gets costly to send samples.

author: sacherjj
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2014, 03:57:13 am
content: Quote from: tesla500 on October 25, 2014, 01:20:08 amTI sends samples fulfilled by Digikey. I may not be the norm, but I've requested many of them. They arrive very fast. In a day, I've been able to route out a quick proto board on the mill. THe chip arrives a day or two later and validated if the chip will work for what we want. I've thrown out one TI chip that by the datasheet seemed like it would work for us and added two more to our design that actually will. At least on my instance, it will have paid for itself for TI.I've seen no difference in time from Digikey order or TI sample order, with normal shipping. I've found it very helpful.

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2014, 04:06:38 am
content: If they come from the Dallas area in TX, then they are not fulfilled by Digikey.Edit: There is a facility (other than the Headquarters) on I-635 between I-35 and I-75. All my TiStore orders seem to come from there.

author: Bored@Work
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2014, 08:02:56 am
content: Quote from: SirNick on October 25, 2014, 01:19:07 amOne manufacturer in the past told me they stopped giving out samples altogether, because they found "hobbyists" abusing the system and reselling samples on eBay. Fortunately I am not affected by such policy changes. I don't use samples in my job and I don't use them as a hobbyist.

author: chickenHeadKnob
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2014, 08:04:10 am
content: Quote from: tesla500 on October 25, 2014, 01:20:08 amI think the point is to by-pass the cumbersome and byzantine purchase order approval bureaucracy in some large companies. If one chip maker obliges with free samples quickly and the other doesn't guess who gets the multimillion design-win and subsequent order.

author: westfw
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2014, 08:44:09 am
content: QuoteSomeone who resells samples on eBay is not a "hobbyist"...

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2014, 10:05:33 am
content: Quote from: Macbeth on October 25, 2014, 03:43:41 amNo, the packaging and the speed and the price totally makes sense if you are an engineer at business.Speed: If you are making a prototype, it does matter if you get your stuff tomorrow, two days later or a week later. If it is there tomorrow, you actually do something, and you dont need to start doing something else to avoid raised eyebrows.Packaging: sending a sample which got damaged by ESD is the wors that could happen. The engineer will evaluate a chip based on that 1 or 2 sample hes got. If it is damaged, he will use a different chip, and TI doesnt want that.Free: There is a huge difference between free and 1 cent, and that is because how companies work. Engineers almost never have money at their discretion. Which means, if you have to spend 1 cent, you need to turn to your supervisor, you need to write a purchase order, maybe a purchase requisition, plan the requirement in the project, make feasibility. Accounting has to process the payment. Money needs to be transferred. If you need to pay, that can delay the whole process by days, and the overhead cost will be a magnitude bigger, because the work is bigger. Free samples are free to kick the whole business process in the ass (as it should be).I really dont like the change TI made with their support. First they stopped answering emails, now the samples might be crippled. What is next? Going the Maxim route?

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2014, 10:33:10 am
content: Quote from: tesla500 on October 25, 2014, 01:20:08 amIf you've ever been in a company fraught with bureaucracy you'll know how hard it is to even get the company to spend a single cent without going through a huge tangle of paperwork.Being free eliminates this issue.

author: G0HZU
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2014, 12:00:40 pm
content: QuoteSo true...Where I work it has recently become a nightmare to buy stuff because it takes so long to get the purchase authorised. Free samples are sometimes the only route to getting things quickly.I've probably spent £300 in the last year of my own money on Farnell orders when I need some 'next day' parts at work. The bureaucracy is so bad I'd rather spend/lose my own money than try and claim it back via the various business forms and the required authorisations and then suffer the inevitable inquisition as to 'why' I did it this way.I'm not the only one who does this. 5 years ago I could fill in a purchase request, sign it myself and then hand it to someone in purchasing and I'd have the bits next day.The whole thing would take a few minutes. Now it can take weeks and I mean WEEKS to buy something as simple as a bag of capacitors and the cost to the company in terms of time/money is huge.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2014, 12:04:08 pm
content: TI's move makes perfect sense to me.Other than for students, free sampling makes no sense as the reps / distributors would be on the case of a potential customer.For students, it is an investment into TI's future.So the policy of requiring a commercial address or an educational account is the right one for them.

author: G0HZU
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2014, 12:10:45 pm
content: The other thing that complicates the sample process is the modern (ethical) issue of 'kickbacks and gratuities'google it if you don't know what it means.But, for example, I'm not allowed to accept anything extra from a sales rep from any company that isn't a 'requested' sample. eg I'm not allowed to accept a free calendar or pencil or even allow them to buy me a sandwich or provide me transport to/from a sample request meeting.It's a serious issue if I do any of the above. Even accepting a free pencil would get me in deep trouble if the wrong person found out about it.I'm not surprised that companies are tightening up on sample requests because in my experience a rep will be tasked with following up the sample request to see what they were used for or if they were good enough. i.e. I think the manufacturers use reps and sample requests as a basic gateway to allow them to mine information about how companies use the sample components and also what the companies are doing in terms of technology.So they are not normally 'free' samples

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2014, 12:31:00 pm
content: It is not like Texas Instruments has to compete with National Semiconductor anymore.

author: GreyWoolfe
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 25, 2014, 04:26:55 pm
content: I'm with Nandblog. For large purchases, we have to go through a purchase requisition. That can take a month or more. When I was a student at ITT Technical Institute, we did the free samples a few times for class projects as students. After I graduated, though, that was the end of asking for free stuff-just me personally.

author: Rufus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2014, 04:42:39 pm
content: Quote from: tesla500 on October 25, 2014, 01:20:08 amA. Distributors may not have stock.B. Distributors may have whole reel MOQsC. Distributors may have minimum order values.D. For many companies the cost of raising an order, processing it and subsequent payment is significant.For a few cheap parts it is just all round faster and more economical for the supplier to give you them.If one of my customers needs a cheap spare part I just stick one in the post - it isn't worth generating the paperwork on both sides.As for TI's actions it was probably being abused by people selling the parts on ebay, Microchip restricted their sample program a few years ago for that reason.

author: Rufus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2014, 04:49:03 pm
content: Quote from: G0HZU on October 25, 2014, 12:10:45 pmI used to work with a guy who previously worked for a large TV manufacturer (before everything moved to China). He said he missed all the freebies from reps which extended as far as sexual favours.

author: ShawnD
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2014, 05:26:33 pm
content: Being free eliminates this issue.I was once told I should have created a purchase order for a free sample, because otherwise receiving didn't know who it went to (It had my name on the box!). They are much better now, but some people still get samples sent to their homes to save the day or two it takes to get through receiving.

author: Tinkerer
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2014, 05:29:14 pm
content: Quote from: Rufus on October 25, 2014, 04:49:03 pmThat isnt suprising based on news stories we have all heard.Actually, gifts are quite common overseas compared to the US though. There was an article once about how US companies were losing business because they werent allowed to give or receive even token gifts while other companies outside of the US could.

author: G0HZU
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2014, 05:31:12 pm
content: Quote from: Rufus on October 25, 2014, 04:49:03 pmLooks like I missed out then10 or more years ago it was quite common to see a growing collection of 'treats' from reps on an engineer's desk. eg calculators, tools, pens, USB sticks, mugs, torches etc etc.It was a sneaky way to allow the rep to see as many engineers as possible in one visit. The rep might just be hand delivering some samples to one engineer but once the free treats were known about the rep could easily get access to several engineers.There was a time when the reps from some manufacturers would glean a lot of info about our products and our timescales from such meetings with our engineers. These days we are not allowed to say very much about why we need the samples or what projects the company is working on but it doesn't stop the reps from asking these questions several times during a meeting

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2014, 07:11:56 pm
content: Quote from: Rufus on October 25, 2014, 04:42:39 pmI have gone with alternate parts and even designs because of the first three in your list. If samples were not available for development from the manufacturer or distributors whether free or paid for in small quantifies, then the part effectively did not exist despite the sales guys constantly phoning me up to tell me of its virtues. I remember Motorola and IRF being particularly bad about parts being on allocation and unavailable forever so I just gave up on them for anything.At least now it is more common to be able to buy parts directly from the manufacturer in small quantities but some manufacturers are still effectively invisible if you want anything less than thousands at a time.

author: G0HZU
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2014, 07:41:00 pm
content: QuoteI think a lot depends on potential sales volume and also if the manufacturer wants to get a foot in your company door.Also a lot depends on the maturity of the component. If it is something relatively new (and maybe not yet visible in the public domain) then the manufacturer will usually provide pre production samples for free even if the part is relatively expensive (eg $200 each). This is because they want dev/application feedback from engineers.However, if its something that is mature and they have been selling it worldwide in large volume for several years then it's going to be harder to get free samples unless you can promise it will be worth their while.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2014, 07:54:22 pm
content: Quote from: G0HZU on October 25, 2014, 07:41:00 pmThe problem I ran into here with Motorola and IRF was that paid for samples or small production quantifies were not available from them, their representative, or their distributors. I once got a call from a Motorola representative asking how the parts we had discussed years earlier were working out and I had to tell him we never used them because we could never buy them for any price.

author: Howardlong
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2014, 08:37:38 pm
content: There is another way to deal with the situation, and that is to work for yourself.My own Mouser/Farnell/Digikey/Microchip/Golledge/RS annual spend is well into 6 figures. If my assembler calls up and the P&P machine has thrown a tantrum and is short of a part, I buy it while they're still on the phone and have it shipped. Sometimes I have sufficient stock at hand, in which case I jump in the car and have it with them within 90 minutes. Paperwork? What paperwork? The accountants are a long way from running this asylum, thank you.Regarding TI, many of their development boards and eval kits are so cheap now that I don't have any problem in spending $20 on something that they're clearly not making a dime on, merely covering their costs.It is very rare I get samples, maybe once or twice per annum, and these are always for parts that just aren't available from the usual distributors, perhaps needing an NDA signed also.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2014, 09:12:55 pm
content: Quote from: miguelvp on October 25, 2014, 01:29:49 amI order samples every now and then if a particular part isn't carried by Farnell et al. Actually the sales reps. from Wurth get slightly agitated when I tell them I order single quantities from Farnell instead of asking for samples

author: G0HZU
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2014, 09:29:10 pm
content: QuoteNowadays, I would really like to do the same because the company is changing in ways that no longer suit me...However, if I went solo I would expect to struggle in terms of getting free samples for my line of work (I do RF design at a large defence company). At the moment I can often pick up a phone and have a rep drive here the next day with samples in his car.Or I could arrange a face to face meeting (or a conference call) with their application engineers about a new device and they would usually provide samples and eval PCBs for free. But that would obviously cease to happen if I worked for myself.So I'm not sure how easy it would be to still get samples like this. I'd be happy to pay for eval PCBs and pay for the samples but I fear I would be effectively locked out from quite a few of the top RF component manufacturers so even this option would not be available to me

author: westfw
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2014, 10:40:49 pm
content: Quote"kids" today are so spoiled. Distributors that exist and sell small quantities of most chips to anyone who has the money are a relatively new thing.With the larger manufacturers (like TI) having online stores that sell small quantities of chips (however they decide to implement that), "free samples" are a lot less important than they used to be.(now, even before samples, manufacturers used to mail out free databooks. LARGE, HEAVY, databooks. I always found the ones that would send you 10lbs of paper, but NOT samples, to be rather puzzling.)(I've had the thought that those eBay sellers selling sample-quantities of chips could be a sort of "cottage subcontractor industry" for the semiconductor manufacturers. Instead of managing their own sampling department, they could hire eBay resellers (at nominal salary, plus the income received from sales) to do the repackaging and shipping for them. It does seem like it would be hard to keep accountable, though...)

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2014, 11:25:08 pm
content: Quote from: Bud on October 25, 2014, 03:21:50 amso they know if they give you one freebie you will come begging for another freebee.all the while knowing you will never BUY from them as you are a hobbyist that will build one or two of these units and are too cheap to spend 5$ ...get it now ?that is why they still give out free samples to people working for a company. company = potential design win. hobbyist = cheapskate McFreeloader ...

author: Howardlong
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2014, 11:55:36 pm
content: Quote from: G0HZU on October 25, 2014, 09:29:10 pmThis is true to some extent. When I started, without any real world demonstrable product, most of the b%stards didn't even return phone calls. However you already have a relationship, and as an independent, with a track record from elsewhere, I am sure they will speak to you. These days now I'm known not to be a tyre kicker with some real spend, the stonewalling doesn't happen. My favourite distributor has turned out to be Golledge, from whom I used to buy the odd saw filter, maybe ten at a time. I now buy in the thousands, £30k pa spend. I still speak to the same guy I spoke to all those years ago, just that he calls me up for a chin wag every couple of months or so, when he knows I'm probably going need to order anyway as lead times can be two or three months for some of the parts I use.

author: G0HZU
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 26, 2014, 12:44:54 am
content: Yes Golledge are very good. I used to deal with them a lot in the 1990s and they used to provide some decent databooks and were great with free samples and for providing their knowledge and customer support. eg they would happily send 10 or more crystals for free even if I only needed a couple. If I only needed a future total of 10-20 xtals they would just send them all as samples on day one as it was cheaper for them to do it this way. We did buy a lot of stuff from them for higher volume products so it was a pretty good relationship.IQD were also very good for similar reasons. However, these days there is fierce competition in this area and I don't always get to choose the supplier because we are more production oriented and sell products in the tens of thousands. Our xtal, OCXO, TCXO and filter requirements get sent out to multiple suppliers for quotes and it's the beancounters at my place of work who get to choose which one we buy as long as the supplier can meet all the spec requirements.This recent beancounter system tends to insulate the engineers from the 'best' local suppliers in terms of customer support etc. Not good

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 26, 2014, 01:47:23 am
content: Quote from: free_electron on October 25, 2014, 11:25:08 pmI do not think you read carefully what I wrote , my friend. Free samples help reduce cost of a prototype but they do not eliminate the cost, since in practically 100% cases my designs have multiple ICs/parts. So I do buy the rest of the parts, and I typically buy them from the manufacturer who was kind to give me samples.And you never know if a hobbyist design may one day all of a sudden hit a million dollar on Kickstarter.Also I do not think that a company would count beans once they established a free samples program. If this is a program, it will be properly financed and the money given to it in the budget have to be be spent.

author: LabSpokane
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 26, 2014, 03:18:04 am
content: TI treats hobbyists very well. I can buy hobby boards for peanuts direct from them shipped free via fedex. So far I've been able to get every TI part I want from Mouser in small quantities.I don't see why a hobbyist should get a free ride from any manufacturer. All I ask is that I can buy the parts in small quantities for a reasonable price.

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 26, 2014, 03:21:44 am
content: I agree, we got the Chronos watch and the reflective display for the launchpad, and the launchpad, etc...I do agree on their policy that the samples should be constrained to Universities and Companies that actually make huge orders if needed.

author: Rufus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 26, 2014, 03:29:18 am
content: A while ago I approachedhttp://www.pickeringrelay.com/index.htmlbecause I needed a couple of high voltage mercury wetted reed relays for a one off test box.The guy said he would just send me a couple, he even tested some for high breakdown voltage and sent a couple of good ones because I was running close to the limit. That bought a lot of good will and this bit of free advertising

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 26, 2014, 05:17:29 pm
content: Quote from: Bud on October 26, 2014, 01:47:23 amoops. my bad. i thought you wrote from perspective of a hobbyist.for company business sampling is perfectly fine. hence ti no longer responding to gmail addresses. if you are hobbyist they sell very cheap stuff to play with.actually all this on-line sampling stuff is really only dealt with fro small to medium soize customers. if i need samples professionally i simply call the manufacturer and within the hour stuff is on its way , including a visit by their own sales people , presentations , the whole shebang. oh, i need a reel or mini-reel of those since i will be building 100 proto's on a pick and place to do some burn-in testing. no problemo.of course it helps if you work for a company that vendors are fighting over to be able to sell to...

author: matkar
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 26, 2014, 08:10:08 pm
content: For the past four years I work as a contractor. I mostly develop circuit boards and make a few prototypes for companies. I have a gmail account and this new policy of theirs doesn't affect me a lot since I usually buy components I need. I don't bother with samples since it's easier to order stuff I need for a project in one place (Farnell mostly). I believe I have ordered free samples for TI only twice in this period.Just after the 2008 crisis when Microchip ceased sending samples I was visited by an Austrian rep who told me Microchip spent 280kUSD per year (or maybe per month, I don't remember) on sample postage only. TI must suffer an even higher loss since they send through courier.

author: mtdoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 26, 2014, 08:32:34 pm
content: The reason I think TI's recent policy change is folly is this:1. The people who abuse sampling will continue to do so since it is easy and cheap to set up your own email domain.2. While it is true that many "hobbyists" will never develop a commercial project, it is also true that many hobbyists eventually go on to work as engineers developing commercial projects. High schoolers, those out of school but yet to land a real job, those between jobs and those who have a real engineering job but work on hobby projects at home or who like matkar's example, work as contractors and don't use a corporate email account.3. The philosophy of providing free samples to students is a good one since one you get someone used to ordering your parts they are more likely to look to your components first for future projects. But as per #2 above and as discussed many times on this forum - there are many engineers who come to the field from non-traditional paths.4. It's not about spending a few dollars on components for a project. Everyone likes to get something "free" even if it is only a $2 part. It gives you the "warm fuzzies" about the company - and promotes brand loyalty.5. In the end what this policy will do is take away the "warm fuzzies' that hobbyists/makers, and commercial design engineers in waiting feel towards TI. Those abusing the free sample system for commercial gain will continue to do so by just getting a new, accepted email address.In the short term this might save TI a few tens or even a few hundred thousand dollars which is literally peanuts for a company with12.5 billiondollars in annual revenue.In the long term I think it will only hurt them...

author: Rufus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 26, 2014, 08:44:47 pm
content: Quote from: mtdoc on October 26, 2014, 08:32:34 pmPresumably they have some per account limits - perhaps they noticed too many accounts with different email addresses and the same delivery address.

author: Smokey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 26, 2014, 10:16:09 pm
content: Quote from: free_electron on October 26, 2014, 05:17:29 pmEven the small company I work for, I'm constantly offered free samples of stuff. I don't even have to ask most of the time time. A vendor comes calling showing off their new stuff and just about anything I show interest in they offer some samples for.The real winners are the free samples of dev boards since most of the time I won't want to spin a board with an unknown chip just to see if it's something I want to use. I'll usually turn down the single chips, but I'll take the dev boards.and like 15 years ago... geeze, makes me feel old saying that.... I used to abuse the hell out of free samples. They are mostly still sitting in a box in my lab. I hardly used any of them. If I was TI, I'd be doing exactly what they are doing.

author: westfw
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 27, 2014, 04:02:10 am
content: I suspect that students or hobbyists that manage to contact an appropriate person at TI would still be able to get samples, given a reasonable sounding story. It's the effort to save money by automating the process that ends up being particularly prone to abuse, and expensive.

author: GEuser
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 27, 2014, 04:42:31 am
content: To remove the Soup is downright mean stingy and nasty , now i'll have to go and buy it but this time i'll make sure the pea & ham or tomarto or any of the other favourites I like areNotmade in the UsA .French Fries !

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 27, 2014, 05:00:11 am
content: Quote from: GEuser on October 27, 2014, 04:42:31 amPomme frites!Or if you're an infidel, Freedom FriesTim

author: GEuser
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 27, 2014, 05:32:40 am
content: Quote from: T3sl4co1l on October 27, 2014, 05:00:11 amAy that was it I had forgotten Freedom Fries , originally from Belgium .NZ make some nice soups and for a good price but it's a catch 22 , they are Kiwi's