Quality tools for DIY electronics - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / beginners

author: analogix
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2015, 06:11:01 pm
content: On the subject of tools, what types of pliers (needle-nose and cutter?) should I be looking for and which brands are good if looking for quality? This is for DIY hobby electronics, but I still like things to last.I think I've got the choice of multimeter and soldering station worked out (thanks to this forum). I also have a "helper hand" (to hold the PCB/parts while I'm soldering along with a magnifying glass) -are there other tools I should look into buying?I've been into DIY electronics for around 30 years (on and off) but it's time to get serious with tools to make it all a little easier and more enjoyable

author: plesa
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2015, 06:49:00 pm
content: Lindstrom has quite good pliers including cutters. For general purpose I use Knipex mostly and TE connectivity crimp pliers. For screwdriwers is good brand Wiha or Wera.

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2015, 07:36:29 pm
content: A very interesting question, and I don't think a straightforward answer - especially when it comes to making things more enjoyable!I've been in engineering myself for 30+ years so I understand where you're coming from, this is a purely personal view, sorry in advance that it may seem a little 'philosophical'...I have collected various high quality cutters etc over the years and they are all showing serious signs of wear and abuse. I know there is little better feeling than getting a brand new pair of expensive Lindstrom Supreme cutters, followed shortly after by the deep despair of doing something stupid and putting the first nick in the blades. To paraphrase Yoda. "With great quality comes great responsibility!" - Only using up to the specified diameter soft copper (is that resistor lead copper or plated steel???), only using the tips when you really need to etc.I've come to the conclusion that fine tools will always be very much 'wear' items, no matter how expensive, and lifetime doesn't necessarily reflect cost in normal use.The best cutters I have are actually the cheapest, small Xcelite ones:http://uk.farnell.com/xcelite/170m/cutter-side-132mm/dp/202332- very sharp, flush cutting, nice feel and seem very wear resistant hard steel. The best bit is that I don't have to worry about damaging them the way I would a £50 pair of box jointed Lindstroms (which don't actually seem as hard) and I can get brand new pair of fresh sharp cutting edges whenever I want - very enjoyable and stress free!The same applies with fine nose pliers, these inevitably round off over the years, so look for the hardest possible steel for the minimum practical cost. Similar riveted construction to the cutters, these seem to stay tight much longer than the jointed ones, which seem to develop play very quickly. I actually think they can economically use much harder steel in the riveted ones than when they need to be able to forge box joints in them.The one place I do spend more money is on tweezers, nice fine Venus Regine Swiss made antimagnetic ones , the smaller the better for smt:http://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/tweezers/2386227/I actually use the 90mm straight ones, but I couldn't see those. They wear too, but at least you can easily re-shape the points with fine nose pliers. I've hand prototyped some seriously large Digital TV smd boards at work with these and for feel and control they are worth the money.Sorry to ramble for so long. Anyway, this is my personal view on stress free, enjoyable tools, maybe not what you want to hear though.Edit: Ah, found them:http://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/tweezers/2386176/

author: RobertHolcombe
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2015, 11:31:35 pm
content: I agree with Gyro to a point.Tools wear out, but they'll wear out a lot faster, or even break if you misuse them. There are manufacturing differences when you pay more, but if you can get 10+ pairs of cheap flush cutters for the price of one Lindstrom/Knipex/Tronex it makes more sense buying cheap until you establish your specific requirements. Even when you do settle on your ideal tool set it is still valuable to have disposable tools - if you bought cheaper tools to begin with then you probably still have a pair5ky has a video worth watching

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2015, 12:43:44 am
content: +1 for lindstromThey really are top quality, but you do pay for it.

author: Cliff Matthews
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 23, 2015, 01:51:33 am
content: Quote from: RobertHolcombe on August 22, 2015, 11:31:35 pmThanks for the video! I had forgotten Excelite and didn't know Hakko was into more than just irons and rework stations. Back in the 70's I had a pair of Excelite flush cutters with a secondary blade farther up, designed to hold the cut lead from instant flight. They worked for me - does anybody sell those anymore?

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2015, 01:59:54 am
content: You just have to decide if you want to buy cheap tools and replace often, or expensive tools that almost never need to be replaced.There's no need to buy lindstroms unless your seriously into electronics, (or have a really large budget).For someone starting out, or someone with only a small hobby interest in electronics, you're better off buying some $5 Hakko cutters and a second multimeter than some $55 lindstroms.If later one you become more seriously into eletctonics you can always get some lindstroms and use the hakkos for cutting oversize stuff

author: VK5RC
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 23, 2015, 04:19:38 am
content: Re cutters, I have a pretty cheap pair for everyday use, in case I absently minded nick them, a good pair Lindstrom, I keep for certain jobs, eg trimming the fine braid around coax.Do remember, you can't take them with you in the end! HiHi

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2015, 04:55:22 am
content: Quote from: Psi on August 23, 2015, 01:59:54 amThere's no need to buy Linstrom at all. I've always found them far too easy to damage. I never understood why they have such a high profile name.

author: fivefish
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2015, 06:42:02 am
content: I regularly replace my cutters after several months worth of use. My current cutter right now is a Hakko purchased from TEQ. $4.37As soon as this cutter starts getting dull, I'll try sanding it first to squeeze a few more weeks out of it... and when my frustration boils over, I'll throw this one away and just buy a new one. If I get 6 months of daily use on this $5 cutter, I'm happy with it.I do have some "production" going on in my lab, so it's not intermittent hobby use and I'm hard on my tools. Last cutter I have, the metal spring between the handles just broke from metal fatigue of constant use. I used that one for a couple of years.I'm on the buy cheap, replace regularly camp. YMMV.

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2015, 08:24:28 am
content: Quote from: coppice on August 23, 2015, 04:55:22 amI use my 8141 as my everyday cutters and they are 8 years old now.They still cut perfectly and if i hold the closed jaw up to the light there is zero light that comes through along the cutting surface.Did you perhaps buy ultra flush cutters? Ultra flush cutters are a neish item.The blade has no bevel at all so it's very easy to damage.It's quite a severe trade off.If you had purchased Linstrom ultra flush cutters and used them as your generic cutter it would explain things.There's also the blue lindstrom rx series, which are the low budget range which suck.

author: G7PSK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2015, 08:38:52 am
content: I always buy side cutters that are rated for piano wire, they never go blunt on copper or soft iron wire. I have two pairs which I got ex GPO that must be at least 50 years old and not a mark on the cutting edge.

author: eilize
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2015, 08:39:56 am
content: something you absolutly want is:to replace your

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2015, 08:51:06 am
content: Quote from: Gyro on August 22, 2015, 07:36:29 pmOh the Xcelite cutters are excellent, I very much like them. I had a bunch at work, they worked until every time some moron took it to cut their 5mm cable.Their Tweezers are also worth buying.The other brand of hand tools I can recommend for DIY is Duratool. They are cheap but they ones I tested were OK quality.

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2015, 08:58:55 am
content: QuoteYes, Xcelite still make them, they are about £1 more expensivehttp://uk.farnell.com/xcelite/175m/cutter-side-safety-clip-132mm/dp/202344(doesn't show in the photo)Thinking back, the best pair of cutters I had for heavier stuff was a pair I got from RS Components that had solid carbide inserts brazed into the blades. They were semi flush and really were bulletproof. Unfortunately they got lost at work, and I think they were discontinued, but I'd love to find another pair.P.S. Wow, I didn't realize so many people would agree with me - I was expecting a linching

author: Cliff Matthews
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 23, 2015, 09:59:30 am
content: Quote from: Gyro on August 23, 2015, 08:58:55 amYup, that's the one! And reasonable too! Many Canadians buy a lot of tools from "Canadian Tire" a store we love to hate as Crapppy Tire. I went through 3 exchanges ofChannellock 758's with them and finally got my money back because the head kept breaking.http://www.toolboxbuzz.com/hand-tools/channellock-7-5-758-flush-cutter/I just expected more from Channellock - times have changed indeed..Thanks for the fine info sir. Here's a close-up of the Excelite tip. At $8.30 it's a good deal.

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2015, 10:29:18 am
content: Quote from: analogix on August 22, 2015, 06:11:01 pmGiven your location, I'd recommend taking a serious look atSchmitz(they also sell through Amazon.de <here>). You may not have heard of them, but you may have seen/had access to them as rebrands (i.e. CK Tools, Bernstein, and NWS's ESD line <yellow & black grips>).If for some reason you can't get them reasonably, you could look into (EU brands & manufacture):Ideal-Tek (Swiss)Erem(Swiss)Lindstrom(Spain). Quite decent, but not what they used to be when still made in Sweden (you can do better for less money IME).Piergiacomi(Italian). Stamped metal types (ODM for Hakko's cutters BTW, as well as Wiha's stamped cutters). Should be easier to find in the EU than Xuron, Hakko, Xcelite,... if you want this type.I can't recommend Schmitz enough though (equal, if not better quality than anything else I'm aware of, and at half the cost or less).They're also comfortable to use, even for extended periods of time. And as silly as it sounds, they do what they're designed for really well. Meaning the teeth on serrated pliers grab like a hungry crocodile without flattening, and cutters cut reliably for years (based on a well used pair of CK Tools cutters etched withW. GermanyI snagged off eBay). Pricing is similar to Xcelite's forged lap joint models (green handles), but you get a box joint (better than a lap for pliers), and they're a LOT more comfortable to use (longer handles, and uses dual compound grips <rubber & plastic>).As has already been mentioned, don't abuse them if you want them to last. Namely just take care not to cut wire they're not rated for (I snapped a jaw off once by ignoring this rule). Dropping them on a hard floor should be avoided as well (read a member snapped a tip off this way).Tweezers:Ideal-TekDumont(Swiss)EremVOMM(German; rebranded as Wiha, so likely easier to find)Rubis(Swiss)Regine(Swiss)Not sure what will be available to you at reasonable prices, but generally speaking, none of these are exactly inexpensive, even if you can get around the inspection fees & import duty.Fortunately, 2 - 3 pairs is all you really need (i.e. 5.SA + 7.SA makes a nice starter set, but a 00.SA can be nice to have as well). Some could argue to swap the 5.SA with a 00.SA (fine tip & thick tip respectively), but the finer point of the 5.SA allows you to do more IMHO (smaller packages & work better under magnification/a microscope should you find the need at some point). You just have to be a bit more careful not to damage them (more delicate).Screwdrivers:Regarding tips holding up, there are several brands that are well liked.Wiha - Probably the most popular. They also offer more profiles for precision electronic screwdrivers than any other manufacturer.Wera - Ergonomics seem to create two distinct camps (not seen any middle ground at any rate).PB Swiss - Not a lot of profiles for electronics, but the best tips I've ever used. Also the most expensive.Felo - Reasonably priced for the quality (I'm only familiar with regular sized drivers though).I'm guessing Wiha would probably be your best bet, should you need any screwdrivers.Miscellaneous:Lots of small, inexpensive tools can be really handy as well.HemostatsHobby knife or scalpelDental picks, scrapers, and wax carvers (really good for cleaning solder blobs & stubborn flux deposits).Dental mirrorESD cleaning brushes(check outGordon Brush).Small spring clamps (example; excellent for holding items being glued up types of tasks)Dispenser bottle/s (example)Hope this helps.

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2015, 10:49:30 am
content: After my previous good experience I just started my search for carbide tips again. CK do them but they're in the GBP 70 - 100 range. I just found these on ebay...http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/TC-TUNGSTEN-CARBIDE-TIP-JAWS-SIDE-WIRE-CUTTER-CUTTING-JEWELLERY-JEWELRY-PLIERS-/151610569656?hash=item234cb1b3b8They're certainly the right size and shape. I think I'll take the risk. Any thoughts?

author: GreyWoolfe
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 23, 2015, 11:30:33 am
content: I have the Hakko flush cutters. I bought them 5 for $25 and they work well. I don't cut anything larger than hook up wire with them, I have heavier cutters for larger wire.

author: bookaboo
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2015, 11:50:05 am
content: Those who are damaging Lindstrom... what exactly are you doing to them? I have a pair at least 12 year old in daily use and I dont treat them gently. If I dont have a bigger pair to hand I use them to cut and strip 1.5mm cable or trim random insulation. At this point even the plastic is wearing off the handles and one spring has emigrated but at this point I think I'll wear out before the blades.

author: fcb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2015, 12:07:36 pm
content: +1 for LindstromsI have always had 8160's - I take them everywhere. I've lost them (stolen?) in the past, and I've had someone damage a pair cutting s/s bolts with them. But other than that they'll last year many many years.The only down side I find with 8160's is that the handle grips eventual become loose, requiring some glue to fix.

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2015, 02:59:32 pm
content: Ahah, Lindstrom 8160s are rated for 0.4mm piano wire... I _would_ expect those to last for ever in component lead use!Not as expensive as some of their others though.Edit: That matches G7PSKs experience too.

author: Fat
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2015, 07:05:34 am
content: This post took a strange turn, but forced me to buy some Lindstrom cutters. Wish I could have have found a vendor in the USA for Schmidt.

author: dave_k
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2015, 07:30:21 am
content: In addition to recommending Lindstroms my tool kit contains a few nice SnapOn tools as well. I have always liked using their screw drivers, and I have a 1/4" drive socket set which I have been using almost weekly since I purchased it in 1995. SnapOn tools are not cheap, but many of mine have lasted 20 years so far without fail!

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2015, 08:43:32 am
content: yeah the Lindstrom 8160 is excellent if you want something a little bigger than your normal cutters.Something you can "cut anything" with (for electronic related uses).

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2015, 08:52:45 am
content: Quote from: Fat on August 24, 2015, 07:05:34 amThey don't have vendors or distributors as it's all done directly (through their own e-store portal or through Amazon).FWIW, I ordered directly from their own e-store, and had zero issues clearing customs or fees of any kind. Arrival to my door was ~11 days (they sent my order EMS/air mail through the German Postal Service). Ran me ~$28 per pair shipped.No more effort than ordering from any e-store here in the US, so no valid excuses from saving money.

author: Cliff Matthews
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 24, 2015, 11:34:49 am
content: Lindstrom 8160's - Ok, I'll try most brands once (at least this one at the $35 level). Ebay's best new product listings are mostly from Hong Kong. are these fakes?

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2015, 03:44:17 pm
content: Quote from: Cliff Matthews on August 24, 2015, 11:34:49 amI'd recommend sticking with US or European sources.

author: analogix
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2015, 06:02:54 pm
content: I'm the OP -thank's for all the input!Attached are photos of what I've been using for the past 30 years or so which now needs replacing (the needle nose plier has been abused heavily -it used to have a longer "nose" some years backI can't imagine I paid a whole lot for them back then, so it might make sense not to pay huge amounts for the very best there is this time around either. I just don't want the usual "Made in China" garbage but like to go for quality.As I'm self-taught in electronics I assume I'm doing a lot of things the hard way and probably don't even have the right tools for this sort of thing, still I've used the cutter to cut off remainder metal wires from resistors/capacitors etc. after having soldered them to PCBs, and the needle nose to hold components while soldering. Since there are so many plier types to choose from, are the ones I've been using the right tools for this, or are there better plier types?

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2015, 06:27:34 pm
content: Haha, well I think you'll find any of the cutter options a hugh improvement. It looks as if they've lasted well though. Even if you go for a pair of the Lindstrom 8160s I'd be tempted to throw in a pair of the cheap Xcellite ones because, being piano wire rated will mean that the Lindstroms are not fully flush cut, whereas the cheap ones are. It's nice to be able to get a really close cut occasionally.For pliers I'd go for nice small ones - avoid the ones with cutters at the top (as your current ones have) because this just makes the jaws longer. Get a pair of snipe nose ones (ie, tapering to a point) for fine stuff but also a pair of non tapered of the same size. Use these for bending leads etc and you'll avoid the risk of twisting the jaws on the snipe ones. Smooth versus ribbed jaw surfaces is a personal preference thing, I go for smooth for finer gripping.

author: LukeW
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2015, 03:24:40 am
content: I recently bought a pair of Jaycar's "good" Fujiya TH2332 sidecutters and after months of general use they seem very nice, they still seem sharp and there are no nicks or gaps in the blades, they're still light-tight when held up to the light. They seem to have held up a lot longer than general low-end cheap sidecutters which I replace every 6 months or so.

author: fcb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2015, 07:36:21 am
content: On the 8160's (that I use mainly - although I have some smaller Lindstrom RX8147's - but not a fan of the 'biospring').It takes quite a time to learn how to use cutters properley - I can strip 30awg Kynar all day long with my 8160's.