Amazon accuses customer of racism & shuts down their smart home! - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2023, 08:43:21 pm
content: For those who don't have time to watch the video. An Amazon customer had something delivered to their house. They weren't home and their delivery driver misinterpreted the automatic doorbell's pre-recorded message as a racial slur. He complained to his boss and Amazon shutdown the customer's account, just like that!This is mental. Eliminate this crap from your house.

author: langwadt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2023, 09:00:27 pm
content: how much Stockholm syndrome does someone need to have to only "seriously consider" dropping Amazon after being treated like that?

author: Infraviolet
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2023, 09:09:45 pm
content: Another example of why one should never rely on cloud anything.And why the corporate/governmental complex* need to stop playing judge and simply provide plain services to any customer who wants to pay, see also: google shutting down an account when someone needed to transfer nude medical images of their family to a doctor, paypal suspending the acounts of free speech groups, trudeau freezing truckers bank accounts for peaceful protest, a new york shopping centre banning access to anyone tangentially associated with a law firm they didn't like, and not to mention the horrors of social credit systems and central bank digital currencies being proposed...*far too many revoloving doors of managerial types transferring back and forth between government bodies and corporate ones, and all the while advancing the general "agenda" of busy-bodies intent on controlling everything in to neat bureaucratically ticked boxes.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2023, 09:12:42 pm
content: The irony is all the lip service Amazon gives about being "customer obsessed". I hope he sues them over this, and contacts all the local news media with his story.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2023, 09:16:55 pm
content: Hilarious.We still have some choice, but question is, at what point will we stop having choice and ALL companies will be infected by this?The "reassuring" part is that many companies that have taken this woke path (ESG crap) to an extreme have faced backlash (like Netflix, Disney, Paypal...)So what's the future of Amazon? Bets are open.

author: John B
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2023, 09:27:36 pm
content: Quote from: langwadt on June 12, 2023, 09:00:27 pmIt's worse, he used the phrase "loyalty" to amazon. Any consumer should be willing to drop a giant corporation as quick as they're willing to drop you.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2023, 09:49:03 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on June 12, 2023, 09:16:55 pmI wonder if they're going to fire the delivery driver? Perhaps not, assuming he's from a protected minority group. Heck, he's also probably a victim of diversity inclusion and equity training which teaches people to see microaggressions and discrimination everywhere.

author: daqq
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2023, 09:52:30 pm
content: Today on "Why cloud based smart-homes are a dumb idea", episode #3489

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2023, 09:53:31 pm
content: The delivery driver isn't the problem here, maybe he really did think he heard a racist comment. The issue is in the way Amazon handled it, guilty until proven innocent. If they were going to do anything, they should have investigated first, and taken action only once it is PROVEN that the customer committed some kind of offense that is in breach of contract and even then unless it was an actual credible threat or act of violence then the only action should be a warning. There's an old saying "the customer is always right" that companies seem to be forgetting about.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2023, 10:21:35 pm
content: The homeowner's story:https://medium.com/@bjax_/a-tale-of-unwanted-disruption-my-week-without-amazon-df1074e3818bThis is why I don't connect any of my household services to the cloud or internet--call me old-fashioned.

author: akis
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2023, 10:33:57 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on June 12, 2023, 09:16:55 pmAs long as we keep voting the woke in - we are ourselves only to blame. While we still have a shred of democracy left and can vote and our vote is not automatically thrown in the bin.Netflix, Disney, Amazon and all the rest are doing pretty well, I think. Most of the population are already brainwashed and follow the headlines without knowledge, understanding, suspicion or due diligence. Brainwashing starts at school where little kids get fed the agenda of the day, without parents ever knowing what goes on in the classroom. I remember clearly with my kids from 25 years ago. And then it goes on from there. Little kids do not have a chance.Quote from: Zero999 on June 12, 2023, 09:49:03 pm"equity training"? If only. Equity would be a nice thing to teach. What they do teach is (a version of) equality, with a strong exception towards white westerners.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2023, 10:38:21 pm
content: Quote from: langwadt on June 12, 2023, 09:00:27 pmIf you are heavily invested in the whole system and your options are to get it working or rip it all out, the decision might be tough. Fortunately for me, I made that decision over decade ago and I have nothing (that I'm aware of) that won't function without phoning home, and the vast majorit will function without any wi-fi or other radio signals. It's getting harder and harder to do that as time goes on.

author: DrGeoff
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2023, 10:46:13 pm
content: Quote from: daqq on June 12, 2023, 09:52:30 pmThere's no such thing as the "cloud".Just someone else's computer.

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2023, 11:10:18 pm
content: Keep the political opinion garbage to the Dilbert thread please. We don't need more of that here.Quote from: james_s on June 12, 2023, 09:53:31 pmI agree its clearly poorly handled. But "customer is always right" mentality has resulted in the whole Karen phenomenon. Customer can be wrong, and they can be let go or banned.Amazon is free to drop whoever they want if they have a legit reason to do so.Alexa service is free, but you could argue they should refund the hardware cost of the device.Quote from: james_s on June 12, 2023, 09:12:42 pmWhat would you possibly sue for?OK heres your $40 back for Alexa.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2023, 11:24:38 pm
content: I have a degree of sympathy for Amazon.There was a potentially fairly serious incident (big enough to get an Amazon customer, banned from using Amazon services), being reported. So, they rightly informed the customer, investigated it and after a reasonable period of time took reasonable actions to reactivate the customers account.Also we need to be careful, because we are hearing only one side of the story. Perhaps the door-bell message was somewhat abrupt, and a bit rude, without being racist as such.On the other hand, I tend to agree with a number of the criticisms of this policy, against Amazon, both in this thread, in the video and after reading about the person whose account was disabled, account of what occurred.They shouldn't have been so reliant, on Amazon (online) servicesAmazon should have made more/better effort, to inform the customer, what was going on. Perhaps writing and/or phoning/texting them, to make sure they get the messageNot taking any actions to disable their account, until it has been investigatedJust blocking purchases, rather than all the account features, such as AlexaIssuing one or two warnings, before the final (second or third incident), that gets their Amazon account closedCompensating the customer for hassle, when found innocent

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2023, 11:41:23 pm
content: Quote from: thm_w on June 12, 2023, 11:10:18 pmIt may be true that the TOS allows the manufacturer, seller or service provider to 'turn off' stuff at will. What's being discussed here is the wisdom of allowing yourself to be subjected to this treatment at the whim of the company. Your other option is to not purchase such products or services--or worse, become dependent on those goods, especially from sellers that have shown a willingness to excercise their right to terminate services without a lot of discussion or consideration.The problem I have with all of this is that now everyone want to bring and try their case in the court of public opinion, AKA mob rule.

author: Kim Christensen
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2023, 02:50:47 am
content: Quote from: DrGeoff on June 12, 2023, 10:46:13 pmI laughed the first time I heard of the Client-Server relationship being rebranded as "cloud computing".

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 13, 2023, 06:03:30 am
content: Amazon now want to give you a free phone. Good luck.https://www.engadget.com/amazon-is-reportedly-trying-to-offer-prime-subscribers-free-cell-phone-service-140026387.html

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 13, 2023, 06:06:30 am
content: Quote from: TimFox on June 12, 2023, 10:21:35 pmSmart homes are a dumb enough in the first, but why connect to a cloud service?If you have to "smartify" your house then use a local system that has no internet connection.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 13, 2023, 06:06:42 am
content: Quote from: daqq on June 12, 2023, 09:52:30 pmI always maintain that a truly smart home is one that is properly planned and designed. A well-place "analog" light switch is far better than a bunch of cloud-connected garbage.

author: wilfred
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2023, 06:33:03 am
content: Quote from: thm_w on June 12, 2023, 11:10:18 pmI afraid you don't understand the meaning of the phrase "the customer is always right". It's not literally true. It refers to their ability to choose, and that thinking they are wrong for going elsewhere or rejecting your offer is pointless. To win them you must offer what they want, or persuade them better.I would argue the alexa service is not free. You purchase it with something that is of value even if it is not money.

author: akis
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2023, 06:34:27 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on June 13, 2023, 06:06:42 amThere those light/electrical switches/relays, that talk to each other, and only to each other, with no need for wifi or internet connectivity. This is the kind of system I am thinking of installing at home: one hard-wired "master" switch and a few "slave" switches that cause the master to switch on and off. The brand is Qiunetic, but I hear there are more out. This system has allowed me to keep just one hard-wired switch in each room of the house with only one cable travelling to the ceiling lights, and the ability to add further slave switches wherever I want, and without relying on wifi or the internet or some company's servers.

author: .RC.
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2023, 07:07:14 am
content: Never understood why people need to be so dependent on devices around their home. What is next a smart device attached to the cloud to wipe your arse?

author: m k
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2023, 08:15:18 am
content: In Japan you can get a model with an analyzer.

author: langwadt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2023, 08:51:23 am
content: Quote from: MK14 on June 12, 2023, 11:24:38 pmreally? someone says they thought they heard a racist remark

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 13, 2023, 09:04:35 am
content: Quote from: james_s on June 12, 2023, 09:53:31 pmEven if he actually made a racist remark, deny him delivery of goods so he does not get to interact with their drivers. Even if the guy was a racist KKK member, he still should be able to use the devices he paid for.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2023, 09:28:23 am
content: There's a reason I got rid of all of our Wi-Fi bulbs and peripherals and moved the system to a locally hosted Zigbee network. There's a cloud - butI own it!

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2023, 09:33:04 am
content: Quote from: langwadt on June 13, 2023, 08:51:23 amWhen writing replies on the internet, with a wide ranging audience. I tried to choose the best words, to most likely NOT offend anyone here. (politically correct).It is arguably serious, because anything that is 'serious' enough for Amazon in practice to ban/close your Amazon account, along with all its services. Is therefore 'serious', as it has bad consequences.If a customer really is, shouting racist abuse at delivery people (it seems there was a mistake in this case), that is not acceptable.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2023, 09:44:29 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on June 13, 2023, 06:06:30 amIt means that if a person or family wants to, they can view various internal/external security cameras, in various positions. Which can give them reassurance, when away from home.It means they can have access to a set of their files, such as family pictures and videos. Which can be shown to other people or even given links to the material, on all their internet capable devices.Yes, most of the users on this particular forum, could probably set up their own local 'cloud' services.But members of the general population, might be scared and not know how to set up servers and such services, locally and may not even realise that it can be done, without using external cloud companies, and paying (often) monthly fees, which soon add up.I like the idea of being able to switch some things on and off, via commands. E.g. Extra lighting, cooling fans, sometimes other stuff.But a better (much cheaper, no expensive subscriptions, no internet needed, no wasting time with complicated setups) way, is to use a relatively cheap remote control switched set of plug in mains sockets.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2023, 10:04:45 am
content: The reason Wi-Fi smart devices are more common:- No need for a central hub if you have a Wi-Fi router which almost everyone does have- No need to open ports on the router to access cloud function (the bulb maintains the connection)- Automatically creates a 'cloud' if you have access to this serverOf course, the privacy implications of having a bulb constantly talking to a server in a country that may not be super friendly... yeah, not great.Compared to the Zigbee option I chose:- Need a central coordinatoranda Wi-Fi router- Have to run custom software on this coordinator (RasPi running Home Assistant in a Docker container)- Had to set up my own SSL certificate to secure my open connection (not doing so would be stupid)- Had to get a free DNS set up so I have a consistent end point to access- Had to open ports on the routerYou don't have to do all of this, but if you want to use an off the shelf system which makes things easier (say Philips Hue which is Zigbee compatible) then you open yourself into the same problem of having a device talking to a server you don't own or trust. If the latter tasks could be made easier for 'Joe Public' (I didn't even find it particularly easy and I like to think I know a thing or two about networking) then I think there would be better adoption of this tech over the Wi-Fi only option. But, it would require companies to set up an IoT system that didn't give them access to your data though, so I can't see the incentive for them!

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2023, 11:52:33 am
content: Quote from: .RC. on June 13, 2023, 07:07:14 amThat's old news.https://www.zdnet.com/article/lg-uplus-launches-iot-for-bathrooms-with-wi-fi-bidet-toilet/

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2023, 12:35:10 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on June 13, 2023, 10:04:45 amOr just set up a VPN.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2023, 12:51:41 pm
content: Quote from: Kim Christensen on June 13, 2023, 02:50:47 amThose of us of a certain age remember when "cloud computing" was theonlypracticalandeconomicoption.Everybody heaved a sigh of relief when we were finally able to own and control our own data, and weren't held hostage by the Timesharing companies. History doesn't repeat, but it does rhyme.Anybody that discusses Oracle + gonads in palms wiil be guilty of derailing the topic

author: Haenk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2023, 02:37:42 pm
content: Quote from: langwadt on June 13, 2023, 08:51:23 amAFAIR Rossmann said, the driver used headphones. When *I* use headphones, I can hardly hear anything being said around me, less so the cr*ppy digital voice recording from an 0,5" speaker.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2023, 03:07:15 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on June 13, 2023, 06:06:30 amEasy for a geek to say (and sometimes do), but for Joe Normal it's a high bar to cross. The smart clouds make it dead simple to set up and program, trivially so. Having to buy the right specific model you can reflash to use some half-baked local thing (and then dick around with router ports for remote access) is going to lead to manual switches and a cupboard of unused sockets.

author: artag
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2023, 03:30:19 pm
content: Quote from: PlainName on June 13, 2023, 03:07:15 pmThen that's a product opportunity. Sell an 'alexa in a box' that does the whole thing, and doesn't use the cloud. And don't expect it to be maintained remotely.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2023, 03:32:31 pm
content: Quote from: PlainName on June 13, 2023, 03:07:15 pmIf people demanded cloudless smart devices, or at least ones that still work without internet or accounts, perhaps they would be produced. I will understand, for example, if my Enphase solar system stops giving me nice web-based data and messages either because the internet is out or the company is shut down. I wouldn't be happy if they shut me down over a tweet, but in any case the system itself would remain in operation and I would still have local access to the data. Accepting a system where your toilet won't flush if some remote system operator disables your account is just stupid.It's not just technical failures or companies publicly shedding customers for their tweets that we have to worry about. How much further do we have to go before your refrigerator demands to serve you an advertisement before it lets you have a beer? Or your laser printer refuses to print a document it deems offensive? I think we're 99% there already.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2023, 03:42:37 pm
content: QuoteWhy would they? The current products work fine and are super-easy to use. No-one sits there and thinks, "You know, what would be better is to make this remote access unavailable and have an extra machine to load up with stuff I don't know how to set up or maintain." At best they might look at Apple and buy their stuff.Tales like the one here are just things that happen to other people. It would take serious outages of several competing systems to wake people up, and then there's the problem of knowing that alternatives exist.

author: langwadt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2023, 03:49:51 pm
content: Quote from: PlainName on June 13, 2023, 03:42:37 pmsomething like someone dying because they were locked out of their AC or heating, might change things

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2023, 04:17:58 pm
content: QuoteA one-off wouldn't. It'd be just "one of those things". You'd need it to happen on at least a semi-regular basis, and the major response would be "they could've just flipped the switch manually."

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2023, 04:19:54 pm
content: Quote from: langwadt on June 13, 2023, 03:49:51 pmI have a smart heating system too and it does have a wi-fi connection (the radiator valves are Zigbee but the internet connection is for remote control). The designers have clearly thought about the risk of a fault occurring. There is a button marked "heating" on the unit which if pressed will set all rooms to 21C and heat for 4 hours. Good enough to figure out what's going on in the meantime. I note this isn't something all systems have, though.

author: mendip_discovery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2023, 05:37:00 pm
content: Quote from: langwadt on June 13, 2023, 08:51:23 amTry to think what the headline and story would be if they hadn't reacted. Staff member left traumatised after customer sayint racist abuse, company didnt care and left the staff member having to quit their job as nobody in corporate would listen to them or take action against the customer.It could he quite serious if a company is seen a complicent in a racist situation. Bad PR and potential for a lawsuit.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 13, 2023, 07:50:32 pm
content: I have Homematic IP wireless system for underfloor heating. Although ecosystem has many more different smart home devices some which I may start using later and is compatible with some other manufacturers. It can be set up in 4 different ways. One is pairing room thermostats directly to underfloor valve controller or radiator thermostat but it's the least versatile and with no smart garbage whatsoever. Second way which I'm currently using is connecting all of the devices to a $50 ethernet or wifi access point which allows setting things through the app. App works through the cloud, however otherwise system is autonomous and without internet connection you still can set temperature on thermostats, light switches will still work, etc. App does not require any registration at all, you just scan a QR code on access point or enter code printed on it manually. Third way is using CCU3 central control unit instead of access point which works locally and you depend on nobody. Everything happens through web UI instead of the app but it costs around $190 which is almost 4x more expensive than access point. Alexa and other voice control can be added too if you want to deal with that garbage.Or 4th sort of unofficial way (interface HW is official, software isn't) is using Raspberry Pi or other device with a hat or dongle and running RaspberryMatichttps://raspberrymatic.de/The downside is that Homematic is almost entirely Germany oriented so good luck finding any decent info about it on anything but German.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2023, 07:54:01 pm
content: QuoteUseful feature. But... it's software. There's no reason that should work perfectly, especially with a borked system, whilst other parts of the same product 'might' have issues.Once upon a time I was monitoring some piece of comms kit and treating the signal LED as 100% honest, as if it were hard wired into the cable coming out the back. Took a significant effort to consciously realise the LED could fib - not only did I know it was connected only to a CPU IO pin, but I'd programmed the thing myself. Strikes me that the 'heating' button is similar - it fools you into thinking it cannot be wrong and will always do exactly what it's supposed to regardless of everything else going on.

author: Kim Christensen
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2023, 07:57:38 pm
content: Quote from: mendip_discovery on June 13, 2023, 05:37:00 pmI don't think that's the issue here.The problem is a case of the customer being treated as if he's guilty by default. A proper investigation should have been donebeforeany action was taken against the customer. Doesn't matter whether you agree if the punishment fits the "crime" or not.I think this is the argument against using Amazon home automation systems and cloud based items like it: You're at the mercy of a large corporation "doing the right thing" which is never a wise consumer choice.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 13, 2023, 08:11:42 pm
content: Quote from: mendip_discovery on June 13, 2023, 05:37:00 pmDude, turn on your brain. First of all they have done this with no investigation whatsoever. Also as I said before, they can refuse delivery to the guy but shutting off his account entirely and including smart home because he supposedly said something to a delivery driver is a woke cancel culture-ish nonsense. Not to say corporations policing individuals is 1984-esque.

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2023, 08:51:41 pm
content: Quote from: Kim Christensen on June 13, 2023, 07:57:38 pmAgree, although thats probably how its described in the TOS.Google is no different: "We may suspend or stop providing our Services to you if you do not comply with our terms or policiesor if we are investigating suspected misconduct."https://www.androidauthority.com/google-account-banned-1054640/

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2023, 09:05:15 pm
content: Quote from: PlainName on June 13, 2023, 07:54:01 pmI doubt you'd find any thermostat that isn't at least somewhat software controlled, except perhaps the most basic thermo-metallic contact unit. But even then your boiler probably has a microcontroller in it... The internet connection on the unit is the riskiest part, given it depends on external infrastructure that I can't control. All that the 'heating' button needs to do is turn on the boiler (the relay clicks immediately when I press it, though I use OpenTherm for 'reasons') and send some Zigbee packets out to get the thermostats running. It should be pretty reliable, at least as reliable as a gas boiler itself is.In the very worst case, I still have the old thermostat wired in parallel as a frost stat set to 5C. If it all goes to pot, I turn that on and then either remove the TRV's (100% heat) or set them manually via Zigbee commands.There was a reason that when I was looking at smart heating I went for an independent system. While it uses Zigbee like the rest of my smart home stuff, the TRVs talk to the Wiser hub, and the hub manages all temperature control. My RasPi can send heating requests - I use it to do neat things like turn off the heating in my home office when away from home - but ultimately the white box next to the boiler does all the hard work of getting those rooms to the right temperature. The Wi-Fi interface even works if the internet cloud goes down as the Pi accesses it via the local network. I almost never use the cloud interface anyway.Quote from: wraper on June 13, 2023, 07:50:32 pmSounds similar enough to Wiser given you can just go to 192.168.x.x and once you know the "JSON secret key" (which is retrieved by pressing a button on the unit and within 30s going to the right page) then you can get local access. It's almost as if they built it to be tweaked with by home automation nuts. Thankfully someone has done the hard work already and built an integration into Home Assistant, and occasionally the engineering manager for the company posts on the HA forum with bug fixes and suggestions, so it's informally supported, which is nice to see. That integration was a major reason for me purchasing it: other products didn't have it, or only had it via a cloud 'app', eww.I found that the kitchen had a hydronic radiator built in (I first thought it was an electric kick fan but noticed the '80 watts' label on it). So I set it up so it runs off a Zigbee smart plug, and when the boiler flow temperature exceeds a certain temperature and the kitchen temperature sensor is below another threshold, the hydronic radiator turns on, around normal dinner/cooking time. It's a little crude, but it keeps the kitchen warm in winter without wasting the heat for the rest of the day.Hot day today, so the heating is all off, and yes I think I want air con ... I just need to figure out how to automate that next. Most mini splits seem to be wi-fi controlled, annoyingly, so I will probably figure out a way to do it via the infrared control.

author: John B
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2023, 09:32:53 pm
content: The actual customer responded in the comments on Louis' video. Have a read to get a better idea of his mindset.I'm surprised anyone's giving amazon the benefit of the doubt here. The allegations of "racism" are largely moot, the issue being that amazon can arbitrarily shut down the functionality of your devices. It can be any reason they want, or no reason at all.

author: langwadt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2023, 09:59:23 pm
content: Quote from: John B on June 13, 2023, 09:32:53 pmyeh, it doesn't matter why they did it, it only matters that they did it and how they did it

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2023, 10:14:26 pm
content: If you do no behave, you'll be grounded.

author: langwadt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2023, 10:18:09 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on June 13, 2023, 10:14:26 pmexcept Amazon went directly to second part with no warning or even a question

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2023, 10:24:46 pm
content: I approve of employers protecting their employees from unprovoked customer attacks.However, the procedure described here by Amazon is amazingly inappropriate and bad, both in verifying the accusation and in blocking unrelated paid services.Question to anyone with similar Amazon-operated equipment:Have you read the terms-of-service for the equipment; if so, what do they say about this situation?

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2023, 10:40:03 pm
content: Quote from: TimFox on June 13, 2023, 10:24:46 pmQuoteSource:https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/help/customer/display.htmlHeading at top of page:QuoteSection:Quote

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2023, 10:43:12 pm
content: As a bit of a nonchalant observer of this type of Jerry Springer stuff...I haven't been able to discover just exactly what the Amazon person 'thought' that they actually heard.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2023, 10:49:14 pm
content: Quote from: MK14 on June 13, 2023, 10:40:03 pmI've never read such a stupid statement in a ToS, how can anyone agree to this?OTOH, written this way, I don't think it would hold any value in court. So the guy should sue and curb the crap out of Amazon.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 13, 2023, 11:06:00 pm
content: Amazon UK:QuoteSo it seems they acted against their own ToS.EDIT: so in UK you have some rights, Amazon.com ToS are completely different:https://www.amazon.com/gp/help/customer/display.html?nodeId=GLSBYFE9MGKKQXXMQuoteRead as we can fuck you over on a whim.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2023, 11:06:48 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on June 13, 2023, 10:49:14 pmNot a lawyer but doubt a lawsuit would go anywhere.I'm pretty sure that a company can refuse to give service to almost anyone providing they're not discriminating on a protected term (so they can't refuse to serve you if you're gay, but they can refuse to serve you if you're homophobic, because homophobia isn't a protected characteristic.) 14th amendment I think?At that point it comes down to whether Amazon had good cause to believe the customer had broken the T&C's. Not au fait on the US legal system, but I would have thought that these things would be determined on the balance of probabilities, as it's a civil matter. Customer can try to sue, but Amazon would argue they acted responsibly based on an employee complaint, and are not obliged to offer service. At best, customer might be entitled to a refund for remaining service costs - e.g. Prime membership. Doubt that would extend to a refund for the devices purchased, they are still usable, just not with the customer's account.

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2023, 11:38:32 pm
content: Since this hasn't blown up to national levels Amazon probably shouldn't respond this too officially and just throw fuel on the fire, but if they aren't at this very moment reforming their procedures they are idiots.These kind of ecosystem accounts represents immense value and historical data to people ... disturbing the trust people have in it can never be worth it. If he had come out in a KKK hood and burned an Amazon driver in effigy they still shouldn't have cut off his account, it's an incredibly stupid way to run your business.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2023, 12:07:55 am
content: I suppose an analogy, would be if an energy company, provided electricity, gas, water, TV/on-demand (like Netflix) and phone services, to your home.Then, because of a misunderstanding as to what your automatic doorbell voice said to a meter reader or other energy provider representative (e.g. for smart meters), they thought it sounded racist.So, all your services (Electricity, gas, water, TV/on-demand and phone services), were permanently cut-off from your home, because of this.There would be a huge out-cry, it could be dangerous to some more vulnerable members of society and could make the home semi-unsellable (or unrentable).So, in the same way, an Electricity company in the UK, CAN'T disconnect your electricity supply, without extremely good reasons indeed and perhaps a court order as well. E.g. Because you haven't paid for electricity for the last 15 months, and refuse or can't pay.This (suspension and/or banning) could be an issue.As I see it, Amazon are trying to manipulate themselves to be a massively giant monopoly, for selling you all kinds of stuff. So being permanently banned from access from all of that, is potentially a big issue for many people.So, maybe there are some real issues, e.g. legal ones and human rights etc.I suppose you can say that electricity/water etc are essential services, but buying items from Amazon is not. But even so, it is still food for thought.

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2023, 12:29:24 am
content: Famously here, Amazon thought it was big enough to stand up to the Aust Govt when it was decided to include/enforce GST on imported products. Amazon spat the dummy and refused to cooperate by enacting a dumbed-down Australian version of the global site which has no real world inventory.Now eBay and ali-x has the market share. Well done, Amazon. :slow-hand-clap:

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2023, 01:07:19 am
content: amazon should not be messing with peoples SHELTERS.So what you get your security sys disabled because someone said something? Smart light on the stair case stops working? Thermostat turns off? answering machine misses a urgent call? don't get an alarm to get your self to work?That is like getting hacked by word of mouth.A lot easier to do a break in too if you can degrade a house with things that have security-esque functions too. It's gonna end up being standard procedure for a break in I take it. You know, so you don't have Alexa or circumstantial evidence from sensors to worry about.And what does this do to increase safety for drivers. Unless there is a sentry gun up it just feels like you are protecting people from really half assed pranks.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2023, 01:20:22 am
content: Quote from: tggzzz on June 13, 2023, 12:51:41 pmhahha yeah I read some many jokes about mainframes and sharing on like olddd usenet posts and stuff. My only experience with 'workstations' that were locally cloud networked was horrible! 70's university life

author: John B
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2023, 01:44:05 am
content: I am on Louis Rossman's wavelength when it comes to this:Amazon *shouldn't* be doing this sort of thing.There's also no technical reason why amazon or any other company cannot create a device that functions independently and cannot be remotely rendered useless like this. It is a choice that they all made.Outside a technical community, people know virtually nothing about this technology. The only long lasting solution is for people to be informed about this topic, and if they value privacy, independence and the right to actually own and control what you've purchased, only they can make the choice to continue using these products or not.Trying to find other measures like legal means can certainly have a place, but it's always a cat and mouse game of companies trying to circumvent them. They have pretty much all made it clear that they WANT to have this level of control and access to your daily life.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2023, 02:05:41 am
content: Quote from: John B on June 14, 2023, 01:44:05 amIt use to be that Amazon, was a very 'customer' orientated business (maybe they still are, but I'm not 100% sure). Bending over backwards, in all sorts of ways, to keep their customers happy. Even if/when it meant making a loss on some sales.Such as great no hassle, very easy returns, honest items (when Amazon was the actual seller), and use to be (a somewhat long time ago), that Amazon was the only seller on Amazon (if I remember, correctly).They also were generally the cheapest supplier, for most items they sold, in the past.These days, I suspect Amazon is beginning to slip on the customer service front. I don't think they are still the cheapest supplier (especially for very low cost items), any more, either.I get the impression a change of management at the top, is gradually shifting Amazons business practices. Away from being this super nice guy (friend), at least for the customers (much, much less so for the suppliers). To being just another business, that is just out to make money, any way it can, even if it hurts the customers.I also think, Amazon is becoming too much of a monopoly (or whatever the right expression is, to describe a business that has become too big for its boots).E.g. An honest business, that sells a huge percentage of its items, via Amazon. Could suddenly be dropped, because of one of a number of reasons, that has broken one or more of Amazons 'rules'. Which could end up badly damaging that business, and possibly mean some people at that business lose their jobs.If Amazon gets too big (or already is), they could end up harming customers, through excessively high prices and little or no viable alternatives, because of their monopoly like situation.If a customer, just lost one service to their home and just one item stopped working, because of a minor dispute. E.g. An online cloud service that lets you view some pictures you uploaded to it. That would not be that bad.But if you get into some kind of dispute with Amazon, and a huge number of services (such as losing access to your only mobile phone number, and hence lose your own customers, as you can no longer take any more small business calls). Then that would be a disaster for the individual(s) involved.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2023, 02:22:32 am
content: I find amazon to be a dishonest seller that likes to mess with stuff, whoever is shipping that crapMy blender was missing a gasket and like 1/2 the accessorieswelding stuff came with the wrong parts and dodgy fitup (very good fakes?)new stuff comes with dust and scratches

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2023, 05:15:16 am
content: Quote from: tom66 on June 13, 2023, 11:06:48 pmWell, I don't think so, unless maybe it's explicitely expressed by the company. In Amazon's case, I've never seen it stated anywhere that they reserved the right to give service to anyone at their discretion, as long as customers respect the ToS. I think that would be quite shocking. That's something you can sometimes see in restaurants, bars and night clubs. And even so, that's usually written on the door.Once a service has been sold to a customer, that's actually what the ToS are for. It's like a contract, both parties are supposed to abide by the terms. As long as said terms are not against the law, obviously disproportionate, or way too vague to be applicable.In this case, my point is that the quoted term, "if your behaviour gives justified reason to do so", is so outrageously vague and unrelated (or at least not related in direct and expliciut ways) to the service that it just can't be enforced and thus wouldn't hold 5 min in court, if this is indeed the term that Amazon used to justify its action.You can hardly state something more vague than this. What does "your behaviour" entail? In what context? What is a justified reason? If I'm wearing a hat, that sounds like a behaviour, and Amazon doesn't like that, it can find it justified to terminate my account?When terms are too vague in a contract, they are usually not enforceable.

author: .RC.
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2023, 05:26:34 am
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on June 13, 2023, 11:52:33 amGoodness me. What are the settings1. Feather duster.2. Normal.3. Enema.4. Goatse. (no don't google that if you do not know what it is)

author: John B
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2023, 05:40:38 am
content: Quote from: .RC. on June 14, 2023, 05:26:34 amPro-Lapser 5000 ™

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2023, 08:34:52 am
content: Quote from: MK14 on June 14, 2023, 12:07:55 amThe difference is a smart home is a convenience. These systems are not usually essential. Loss of electricity, water or gas could kill someone. Telephone service arguably could be important for emergency services (though I think you can still call emergency/999 without a contract?)Quote from: SiliconWizard on June 14, 2023, 05:15:16 amIs it really any different from say Costco kicking out someone who's abusive to their staff? "Oh, but I have a Costco membership! It's still good for another 7 months!" Well, they reserve the right to refuse service to anyone for any reason, the only reasons they can't decline service are on the basis of sex, race, etc., because those are protected characteristics. There are plenty of T&C documents that have conditions like this and usually, there's no refund to the customer, though perhaps that could be the point of a lawsuit but who is going to sue over ~$1k of smart home kit? As I said it's not like the kit is useless so it hasn't lost value in that way, it just can't be used with the Amazon account. Most of those smart bulbs can be paired with other systems. I guess the Alexa's are lost value.I don't think the terms are vague in this contract either. The term is basically "we reserve the right to not do business with you for any reason whatsoever". The only case that couldn't apply would be a violation of equal protection.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 14, 2023, 09:50:00 am
content: Quote from: tom66 on June 14, 2023, 08:34:52 amIt's like Costco kicking you out and remotely disabling a TV you bought from them a year ago.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2023, 10:07:30 am
content: Quote from: wraper on June 14, 2023, 09:50:00 amNo, it's more like if Costco ran a streaming service, call it 'Cosflix', as part of your membership and that got cancelled along with your store membership. So you lost access to that function on your (euck) "smart" TV. But you could still turn it on and off. (Smart bulbs still work with normal light switches.)

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 14, 2023, 10:45:02 am
content: Quote from: tom66 on June 14, 2023, 10:07:30 amEven if lights still worked which is not necessary true as those could be regular bulbs with a separate device controlling their power, at least some of the devices he purchased were rendered totally useless on a whim of Amazon.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2023, 08:16:05 pm
content: Quote from: thm_w on June 12, 2023, 11:10:18 pmHe should be refunded for his now useless devices, plus any additional costs he would have incurred.Quote from: Kim Christensen on June 13, 2023, 07:57:38 pmThat's fairy typical for how racism claims work these days: guilty until proven innocent.Quote from: tom66 on June 13, 2023, 11:06:48 pmThis is in the US, so I don't know which groups have protection under law.In the UK this would be covered under the 2010 equalities act, which protects against discrimination on the grounds of race, religion, sexual orientation, amongst a few other things.The problem is, what is deemed to be homophobic is open to interpretation. For example, an organisation might consider someone who expresses the view that same sex marriage shouldn't be allowed, to be homophobic. If this results in said person's account being terminated, then the organisation could get into trouble for religious discrimination, if they claim their view is supported by religious text.QuoteAgain, I don't know about the US, but in the UK, consumer protection laws place limits on what contracts companies can impose on customers. For example, it's not acceptable for your water company to cut your supply, without a valid reason. If you make a racist comment to one of their employees then they can contact the police, but they still have to maintain your supply.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2023, 08:19:10 pm
content: The spelling varies depending on whether you're using UK or US English: In UK English, “behaviour” (with a “u”) is standard. In US English, “behavior” (with no “u”) is the correct spelling.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2023, 08:32:21 pm
content: Quote from: MK14 on June 12, 2023, 11:24:38 pmWhat if it was a racist remark? Is it illegal to make a racist remark in the USA?What if you make a sexist remark to your wife as a joke, and you both laugh about it, but Alexa is there to listen to you.What if you tell your delivery guy to shove the package where the sun doesn't shine because he stepped in the flower garden that you worked on for hours.None of these things are illegal, and all of these things are happening on your property. Why do we let corporations dictate us what is moral and what is not?I reserve my right to be rude to people, and I don't want corporations to 1984 me with crimestop and thought police.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2023, 08:32:29 pm
content: Quote from: thm_w on June 12, 2023, 11:10:18 pmWhat did I say that was political? I was trying to step around any of that.I don't know, I'm not a lawyer. Breech of contract? Defamation? Inconvenience and loss of services? He was essentially accused of racism which in today's world is a very serious charge. At the very least this should be all over the news. Also it sounds like he was likely a lot more heavily invested than a $40 Echo device, he could easily have hundreds or even thousands of dollars invested. Amazon owns Ring and iRobot among others, the latest Roombas are pushing up on $1,000.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2023, 08:38:39 pm
content: Quote from: TimFox on June 14, 2023, 08:19:10 pmYou can't blame people for just Googling Amazon ToS, getting information relevant to their jurisdiction and not noticing the spellings appear to be "normal" to them. What do the US terms of service say?

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2023, 08:40:13 pm
content: Quote from: Zero999 on June 14, 2023, 08:38:39 pmThat was my question.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2023, 08:40:16 pm
content: Quote from: John B on June 14, 2023, 01:44:05 amTo a point I agree, however I don't think the Echo devices would be very useful at all if they were completely local, and even if just the most basic functionality was available locally it would almost certainly increase the price and power consumption of the hardware, especially in the early days when it was first put on the market.I do take issue with the fact that it cannot even be used as a basic bluetooth speaker without being online and paired to an account though, but obviously those of us that care at all about local vs "cloud" are a tiny minority. Now one thing that does really annoy me is what they have done with the Roomba vacuums, I have older models that are totally standalone and work wonderfully. The latest models require an app and online connectivity to set them up, that's just stupid. The older arrangement with an onboard clock and timer was perfectly fine.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2023, 09:27:36 pm
content: I think the online requirement is a simple way of enforcing subscriptions, which is the new investment scam and everyone wants a finger in the pie.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2023, 02:31:47 am
content: Quote from: tszaboo on June 14, 2023, 08:32:21 pmWhen a company delivers (and/or initiates lots of deliveries), something like 7.7 Billion packages per year, Globally.Source:https://theconversation.com/how-many-amazon-packages-get-delivered-each-year-187587It is inevitable that on some occasions, less than perfect customers, will sometimes (hopefully extremely rarely), be encountered. Such as racial incidents, sexual misconduct, dishonesty, violence and other criminal actsE.g.Quotehttps://www.cnet.com/tech/services-and-software/amazon-driver-killed-in-suspected-dog-attack-while-delivering-package/So the Amazon employee care manager and/or team (I don't know how Amazon actually do things like that), has to handle a wide range of concerns and complaints about customers, and decide how to react.Presumably they can decide to take no action, warn the customer, ban that customers account or even contact the Police.Which is generally true of all businesses.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2023, 09:38:16 pm
content: Quote from: MK14 on June 14, 2023, 02:05:41 amThey have very much been slipping. For some time now you can no longer simply email them, you have to use their chat or phone support system which connects you to a cell center in India. They very often are not the cheapest supplier, not even close, and you have to watch out for the minefield of items that are not even fulfilled by Amazon themselves.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2023, 09:42:03 pm
content: Quote from: MK14 on June 12, 2023, 11:24:38 pmIt doesn't matter what happened, their response was still unacceptable, what they did was "shoot first and ask questions later", ie guilty until proven innocent. It needs to be the other way around, they must investigate first and determine that an offense did in fact take place before taking action against the person that committed the offense. You need to have proof of guilt prior to administering punishment, this was clearly not an immediate threat to life that could justify an immediate emergency response.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2023, 09:53:55 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on June 15, 2023, 09:42:03 pmIt's Amazon's decision, how to handle situations like the one in this thread.Example/Analogy:Let's say, another poster on here, appeared to be racially attacking another member.It is THEIR decision, how to handle the situation (just like it was Amazons).The member, could decide to ignore the apparently racist remark and carry on.They could PM the person, in private, or publicly reply to the apparently racist post, against them.They could report it to the moderator team, or even PM the mod team.So, it is up to Amazon, how to react to such developments.Sure, you can criticise and disagree, with how Amazon handled it in this situation. But since you and everyone is free to either do business with Amazon, or not. That shouldn't be a big problem (possible Monopoly aside).

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2023, 09:58:07 pm
content: Quote from: MK14 on June 15, 2023, 09:53:55 pmSure, it's up to them, there's no law against being a fucking idiot, but it is economic suicide to behave in such a heavy handed totalitarian way. It's extremely unethical to punish a paying customer prior to determining what actually happened and it won't take too many incidents like this to irreversibly tarnish the brand.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2023, 10:01:34 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on June 15, 2023, 09:58:07 pm"1983 other customers also bought this item."Does Amazon yet classify the works of Orwell under "instruction manuals"?

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2023, 10:08:42 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on June 15, 2023, 09:58:07 pmYou're right. But there is always the possibility, that it is a mistake, and because of confusion and/or incorrect or missing paper-work and/or a bad/mistaken manager or worker etc. Amazon messed up in that case.Great/fast/easy customer service, use to be a big hall mark of Amazon, compared to most of the competition. If that disappears and is considerably watered-down. Which some people seem to be indicating (including you, it seems). Then sooner or later, customers will learn about it, and that will tend to tarnish peoples view of Amazon.These days, a bad story like this, can travel round social-media and the wider internet, very rapidly.I wonder what Amazon, are thinking about the situation, now?

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2023, 10:12:03 pm
content: Quote from: MK14 on June 15, 2023, 09:53:55 pmAnd the next thing you will see is that they shut down your internet and electricity if you are suspected of some wrongdoing.We already see cases when Paypal refuses to serve people because of their political opinions. Banks as well. Your judge and jury is a pink haired they/them.We really shouldn't let billion dollar corporations that are in monopoly to dictate what's acceptable and what's not. That's the job of the legal system. It doesn't matter why they are doing it, it's a slippery slope.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2023, 10:19:19 pm
content: Quote from: tszaboo on June 15, 2023, 10:12:03 pmOr worse still, some kind of future ChatGPT is the judge, jury and ONLY contact point for getting it resolved.>>Sorry, I've decided to cut-off your electricity and internet==Why?>>I can't tell you that.==What can you tell me?>>Don't worry, I've already told you everything you need to know, any more questions, about other matters?==Please reconnect me, NOW!>>You seem to be a bit angry, I'm putting you on hold for 30 minutes=={30 minutes later} Please consider reconnecting my electricity and internet>>Sorry Dave, I can't do that==Please?>>Don't worry, you will be reconnected in 3 months time==Look you made a mistake>>I'm the cHAL9000GPT, who never makes mistooks==You just misspelled a word>>No I didn't, anyway see you in 3 months, cutting off in 5..4..3..2..1..

author: AndyBeez
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2023, 10:19:53 pm
content: Tarnishing the brand? These companies spend millions on polishing their own turds. I suggest there was an AI automation in the suspension process. Rather like the YouTube randomness. Maybe Mr. Jackson was auto identified as a 'dangerous' microsoft employee? I was going to suggest Bezos should stop paying peanuts to Amazon staffers as he's getting nothing but monkeys. But someone somewhere might identify themself as a 'minority' Amazonian primate.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2023, 10:36:08 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on June 15, 2023, 10:01:34 pmThere's "history" between Amazon and Orwell...http://catless.ncl.ac.uk/Risks/25/74#subj3.1Quote

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2023, 10:38:08 pm
content: If I remember correctly, the deletion of the contraband edition of 1984 included deletion of notes that individual students had made in their copies for writing term papers about the book.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2023, 11:15:26 pm
content: Quote from: MK14 on June 15, 2023, 09:53:55 pmCompletely wrong analogy. The member has zero sway over the other member - the very worst they could do is ignore them. If you're intent on using that analogy then Amazon should push their complaint to the police or other responsible authority (which would be akin to the mods here) and let them deal with it.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2023, 11:57:15 pm
content: There seems to have been a development, on this story. Amazon have apparently confirmed the story, and issued a statement about it. Here:https://dailycaller.com/2023/06/14/amazon-confirms-shut-down-smart-home-false-racism-claims/Quote

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2023, 01:30:14 am
content: Quote from: PlainName on June 15, 2023, 11:15:26 pmI can accept, it wasn't the best choice of analogy. Different peoples, interpretation of it, can vary.Sometimes posts on here are misinterpreted, leading to complaints between users, which are really just caused by significant misunderstandings rather than intentional mayhem.A simple misunderstanding, shouldn't lead to various items in a person or families home, to suddenly stop working. So I can understand why so many people, are worried by this incident.I wonder what would happen, if Amazon sold automated temperate controlled heating/radiator (control valves), for UK central heating (i.e. Like Google Nest) in the middle of Winter. Then suddenly disabled that system, because of a similar misunderstanding. If it was a vulnerable person and/or someone who is so technically limited, that they wouldn't know how to quickly fix the situation and get their heating system back on. That would be bad, and possibly even dangerous, for certain very vulnerable groups.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2023, 03:59:18 am
content: The thing about this is when people buy these gadgets nobody expects them to get shut down without warning over a misunderstanding prior to any investigation to determine guilt taking place. While it may be in the TOS that nobody reads that they're able to do this, nobody would buy the devices if they thought it would actually happen so people are going to feel ripped off if it does.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2023, 08:44:56 am
content: Quote from: MK14No kidding!And on reflection I should have written 'inappropriate' instead of 'completely wrong'.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2023, 11:02:58 am
content: Quote from: james_s on June 16, 2023, 03:59:18 amThere are LOTS of things, over many decades (and probably much, much longer), that sooner or later, have to be taken out of usage, because the manufacturer has decided to drop support for the thing. I think we just have learnt to quietly accept these things.Games consoles, that when they reach a certain age and/or the new version comes out, the company(s), stop producing games for the older consoles and at some point tend to even stop its abilities to play online with other people.Gadgets, which need online access in some cases, where the company goes bankrupt so the services stop. E.g. The Pebble Smartwatch.TiVo (and probably others). Whereby their paid for, 'lifetime' subscription (if you paid quite a lot of money for it, something like $175 .. $200). Ran out, too soon for a number of people, with the company being taken over, I think.Cars, which can cost a lot of money. Then the car company can go bankrupt and/or disappear. Making used sales values drop like a rock and the spare parts situation and dealer support network (for servicing, repairs and spare parts), disappear, possibly overnight.E.g. Rover in the UK (technically speaking they got taken over, by various entities. But the slightly older cars were somewhat abandoned, as a result).Or Saab etc.Google seem to be happy to do various projects, which lots of people can use. Then suddenly announce, the fairly imminent closure of such services, in the coming future. Even for paid services.Don't get me started about Microsoft Windows, declaring various versions of their OS, as no longer being supported and/or refusing to support, even very modern/recent CPUs, in their latest windows products (win 11).Apple seem to do similar, where slightly older products, refuse to load recent versions of their OS.It is annoying that many products can be kept/used and will electronically be working just great, for perhaps 10 years. Yet the manufacturers may stop updating the software and/or even stop the services for that device, after just 3 years. E.g. Google Android specific versions, only updated for a limited time (or so I heard).Even the modern trend of games being digital downloads, makes one wonder what happens if you want to play that game, in perhaps 5 or 10 years time, will it be possible?On the other hand. TV and radio transmission standards, can change over the years. So eventually, various older standards, can get switched off, to allow better use of the available (RF) bandwidth.E.g. In the UK, various older TV standards have been switched off. Such as black and white analogue 405 line transmissions, teletext, and much later 625 line analogue transmissions, and there has at least been talk of the older AM/FM radio signals being switched off (rumours rather than actual cut-off dates), due to DAB/DAB+ and later standards, existing.I suppose 'analogue' internet phone connections got switched off, but was probably done at a time when almost everyone had moved over to broadband/ADSL anyway, so went unnoticed.Sooner or later, supplies of Petrol/Gasoline, may either be switched-off, or it may be a nightmare to find a refilling station, vaguely near-by. My guess would be, perhaps 10 years, after electric vehicles become mandatory (for new sales), they may start disallowing or controlling car fuel sales.Anyway, who would create/open a brand new site for being a Petrol/Gasoline station, these days. With their closure and/or getting fewer and fewer customers, getting ever closer. Unless they shift the various countrywide ban on ICE (Petrol/Gasoline/Diesel) car sales, in the not too distant future, depending on which country you live in.I try and avoid cloud services (even if free), like the plague (with some exceptions), because of privacy concerns and the service(s) suddenly being switched off (plus expensive subscriptions, adding up over a period of time). I suppose this forum, sort of counts as one. But if it disappeared, there would be alternatives and it wouldn't break (stop) any services I get.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2023, 11:50:10 am
content: Quote from: MK14 on June 16, 2023, 11:02:58 amTrue, but not relevant to this case. This is about someone being incorrectly singled out for "item insertion".Having said that, I wonder how long it will be before the whole "cloud control of my home" becomes discredited by such antics. Or, for that matter, people upgrade their "how does this work" mindset to the engineering ""how does this fail" mindset.QuoteThe canonical example of that is MicroSoft PlaysForSure .OTOH, there are apparently Win3 (and later) dialog boxes still lurking in the latest Windoze. Something to do with ODBC config, IIRC

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2023, 12:35:10 pm
content: The person that this happened to (Brandon Jackson), has published a Youtube video about the incident. Here:There is also, a fairly recent article about the incident here:https://www.theregister.com/2023/06/15/amazon_echo_disabled_allegation/

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2023, 12:43:01 pm
content: I think that Amazon crossed the line between what might be legal as part of the TOS and vigilantism, which is very concerning as they (and others) are pushing consumers hard to use their cloud and subscription based services.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2023, 12:47:23 pm
content: Quote from: MK14 on June 16, 2023, 12:35:10 pmThat's not a video. It is a 15 minute static picture of a pretty box, with some added ums and ahs.Your post might just become my go-to example of why 99.9% of yootoobe should be ignored. I'll bet that I picked up all the information in that 900s video within 60s, simply by reading the article! 15:1 is about par for the course.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2023, 12:51:50 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on June 16, 2023, 12:47:23 pmIn all fairness to the guy. He is the (presumably) random victim here. A random individual, is NOT suppose to be a hardened, Youtube expert, with 10 million subscribers, a $20,000 Video camera and great studio lighting etc.So, I appreciate the fact that he spent the time and trouble, to carefully explain the situation, in more detail.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2023, 01:00:47 pm
content: Quote from: MK14 on June 16, 2023, 12:51:50 pmHe's a "Microsoft site reliability engineer", whatever that is.He didn't make a video so he doesn'tneeda video camera and lighting etc. He does have (and knows how to use!) the necessary tool: a keyboard.He had managed to publicise (good!) his experience without those ums and ahs. Let's hope Amazon receives even more widespread publicity, preferably with a cluebat.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2023, 01:10:27 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on June 16, 2023, 01:00:47 pmIf he produced the complaint as pure text using the keyboard, there would still be the problem, of how/where to publish it. Would it get many views?Whereas a Youtube video, even if it is essentially an audio recording of the same text. Is easily published on Youtube, and may virally end up getting lots of views, as people talk about it and share its link.Even Dave (EEVblog), sometimes makes 'Videos' which are mainly/essentially pure text/audio. Albeit typically with a talking 'Dave' head, and maybe with the odd image tossed in, here and there.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2023, 01:22:15 pm
content: Quote from: MK14 on June 16, 2023, 01:10:27 pmFarcebook, Twatter, Ruddit are all set up to do exactly that. Plus, of course, there's email to places like El Reg.QuoteIn which case it changes nothing and I make the same comments.

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2023, 02:34:49 pm
content: If this gets any more pickup I think the best approach for Amazon is simply to grovel and say they will change bans to be by service rather than by account.At some point just ignoring it does more damage than acknowledging it.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2023, 02:38:57 pm
content: Quote from: madires on June 16, 2023, 12:43:01 pmI know what you mean. I was recently trying to sort out some important (to me), technical things, using the internet (Google search), and it found stuff which would help and answer my questions. But I couldn't access it. Because of this Reddit moderator spat (something about change of management and charging for API access or something), where they had made the areas/forums which I needed, closed by being set to private only.I found this annoying. I did find some information, elsewhere. But it is NOT clear, if the Reddit information would have helped me, a lot more or not. At a guess, it would have. As there were very few other sources of information, on the subject.It shows how vulnerable modern things/systems can be.I suppose what a number of posters in this thread are effectively saying, is that an Amazon account, should be split between buying privileges (being able to make purchases and hence deliveries), and the rest of an Amazon accounts functionality, which should probably remain working. Even if banned/cancelled, with very rare extreme exceptions.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2023, 04:24:42 pm
content: Quote from: Marco on June 16, 2023, 02:34:49 pmNO! Just stop shutting down and banning things. There isn't a person alive who doesn't have some view that will piss off someone else. Are you OK with everyone banning everyone else for any minor infraction? I think Amazon are a really nasty company, that we'd be better off without, but I don't want them banned. They should have the same respect for others.

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2023, 06:22:14 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on June 16, 2023, 04:24:42 pmIn the absence of massive trusts, yes I do support freedom of association.Unfortunately this is the age of Trusts far more even than the Standard Oil days.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2023, 06:22:44 pm
content: Quote from: MK14 on June 16, 2023, 11:02:58 amYes but that isn't what happened here. These are fully supported current products that were simply shut off without warning.I try very hard to avoid buying anything that relies on some cloud service somewhere to work. I do have a few Echo devices and I put up with the limitations on those, but many of the other things you mention have no business relying on any kind of online infrastructure.

author: hans
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2023, 08:28:43 pm
content: @MK14: and that is why people still like to "own" media. Buying CDs and vinyl has actually become quite popular again. Technically and/or convenience it is inferior to any modern alternative, like high quality FLAC distributions or streaming music from Spotify. But aren't these streaming services like Spotify, Netflix, etc. all known for suddenly pulling down a show? And so some people avoid them at all costs.Similar things can be said from games. There is GOG, but honestly I never buy there. The convenience from a platform such as Steam is too big, of which I must admit its (large) trust seems to be assigned somewhat semi-randomly. They are one of the longerandbigger running webstores, which they seem to be doing quite well, however they also have plenty of downsides. Valve deals out VAC bans with no chance of appeal and evidence. Bans can be life-time long. The ban is accountwide for any VAC protected game. So you may play a game with friends on a drinking night using some cheats for the giggles, next thing you know and you can't play normal online matches anymore. Obviously there are several stakeholders: there is Steam, the game developer/publisher, the cheater and the rest of the online community. I think these bans are fair though, because cheating wrecks an online gaming experience rather quickly. Given how many games also feature microtransactions or DLCs, its also of best interest for game devs to have people keep playing their game. Steam also makes a cut on those sales. The loss to the 1 cheater versus potentially dozens of people that then keep playing does not weigh in favour of the cheater.But let's draw a parallel to this Amazon case. The circle of influence of 1 guy is potentially small, however, compounded effects are potentially more important where taking offense to something is at least (semi-)subjective: not everyone's moral standard is the same, however, lowering those standards as per the letter of the law is also often not the right thing to do. So lets assume that the message (whether racist or not) was undoubtedly offense. I think it's fairly obvious that Amazons interest is also to prevent abuse of their devices, as it could give them a bad rep.To this degree, I could establish the same conditions as are the case for an account-wide VAC ban like is the case for Steam. And I don't think such a system has received such backlash for it, even though a customer has paid, Valve/game dev makes the rules, and does not have to explain what/why they did take action. And its standards could even change without any influence of the consumer on them. It also sounds very unfair on paper. Yet in practice we seem to hold game cheaters (which can also remorse) to much higher standards than the morals people have with respect to other people.I think (big) tech will be charged with such abuse-prevention tasks more increasingly. Social media platforms are instructed to remove fake news, hatred and scams. Google may ban accounts before any judge has concluded anything. Banks must scan transactions for suspicious activity and freeze those accounts. In general, I don't think we don't have any absolutes anymore, as they are shifting continuously at a high pace, We expect/need immediate responses in the tech world, instead of the more classical innocent until proven guilty. If you don't want that, it appears the best suggestion is to not to use (big) tech.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2023, 08:57:43 pm
content: Quote from: hans on June 16, 2023, 08:28:43 pmOne of the biggest problems I find (which is both ON and OFF topic, as regards this thread), is when the original 'friendly/nice' company, e.g. Steam. Gets taken over (perhaps against the wishes of the original company, i.e. a hostile takeover), by a considerably nastier (consumer wise) company. Who then stretch the TOS (Terms Of Service), or even change the TOS, with little or no notice.Then suddenly, unprofitable services gets dropped, activities which were free and didn't need a subscription, now need a horrible paid subscription. Anonymous accounts, now need to be tied to identities.Easy/safe payment systems are dropped and nasty/horrible/unsafe ones are used instead.Advert free things are now given adverts.Owner for life stuff (e.g. Purchased games on steam), are given time-limits and/or need subscriptions or something.In the case of Amazon, as some others seem to be agreeing. They seem to be changing for the worse, all by themselves. As time goes on. This 'account banning' incident, seems to be just a part of those changes.Also, these 'online cloud services', can make it extremely difficult to change providers. E.g. If someone has accumulated hundreds of games on steam and paid hundreds or thousands of dollars/GBP's/Euros for them. You can't transfer them to a new company, even if the current 'steam/Valve' company gets taken over by a nasty company or has a change of management for the worse.Intel use to keep support for vintage Intel products on their website. In modern times, they literally delete older stuff (which actually is not that old). I don't know why they now do that (change of management, crazy marketing department?). But it means that it can be difficult to get support for some older Intel things, such as development boards and stuff. Just because they are older than some threshold (5 years or maybe 10 years, I'm not clear).Which combines VERY badly with the fact that you need to go online to 'enable' the development board in the first place (firmware update, OS download etc). Making a once semi-expensive development system, potentially worthless junk. Even though it is not that old.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2023, 09:58:24 pm
content: They are basically acting as companies that are near-monopolies, at which point the customer doesn't matter anymore, as they have an almost infinite stream of them.This is short-sighted though, as it can spiral down very quickly.As a customer, don't use online services if you can, or only for very non-essential stuff. In that regard, you should act as an investor: only invest the money you're ready to lose. So, only subscribe to services you're ready to be cut of off at any point with no, or only minor consequences.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 17, 2023, 07:23:25 am
content: QuoteIdeally, yes, but these things tend to escalate and before you know it you're relying on something you found useful after you started using it.

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 17, 2023, 12:00:44 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on June 16, 2023, 09:58:24 pmWhen you are an also-ran up against the greatest Trust in history, that's a really dangerous way to act.Amazon is just going to drive all its customers to Apple as far as home automation is concerned ... and hell, maybe Apple will decide it wants to do groceries and appliances too, then they'll just take it all. Amazon is on thin ice.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 17, 2023, 02:19:59 pm
content: QuoteDoubt it - if you're not in the Apple ecosystem then switching your life to learn, and put up with, Apple's diktats is a step too far just to be able to turn a lamp on or off. Amazon is a minnow, piggy-backing on the actual providers like ewelink and tuya.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 17, 2023, 07:49:02 pm
content: Quote from: Marco on June 17, 2023, 12:00:44 pmApple is no better than Amazon really, and a lot less popular as far as I've seen. I know loads of people with Amazon devices, a handful with Google devices, but zero with any Apple home automation stuff. It's every bit as proprietary as everything else on the market, arguably more so. As I've mentioned before, I quite like my employer issued Macbook but I would never spend my own money on one and get locked into such a limited ecosystem. I like my iPhone for the most part but there are many things that annoy me about it, primarily the inability to roll back any updates, neither the OS nor apps, I have been burned enough times by updates breaking something that I no longer allow anything on my phone to update ever unless I am completely forced into it and I hate being forced. It's less a matter of which mobile platform I like more and more a case of which one I hate less.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2023, 07:59:20 am
content: Follow-up from Louis Rossmann:Amazon cancels my account after exposing account lockout for "racist doorbell"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kcohq313q00&t=237sHe didn't bow to our corporate overlords.

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2023, 08:11:50 am
content: That's the worst possible thing they could have done (shooting the messenger). It's now out in the public - shitstorm in 3 ... 2 ...

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 23, 2023, 08:41:03 am
content: It took them just 7 years to suddenly review an application, find totally BS reasons and reject a "temporary account".

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2023, 02:00:11 pm
content: Quote from: tszaboo on June 23, 2023, 07:59:20 amIf it is not simply just an amazing coincidence. Then that is ridiculous that Amazon has handled this situation this way.As I see it, these 'bad publicity' reports, have been useful information, on how Amazon can improve its services, for its customers, in the future.They should be reacting in a nice and good way and improving things. Instead they seem to be using bullying tactics. Which imply to me Amazon have absolutely no intention of improving, as regards these 'complaints'.At some point, Amazon could go down hill enough, that better informed customers, will or should know, to avoid doing business with them.Surely such antics break one or more laws in the US, such as freedom of speech or another one of the basic rights.Analogy:There is just one big fast-food place, in the entire small city, the next nearest being way, way out of town. They sometimes serve terrible food, and if you complain and ask for a decent replacement or your money back. They then permanently ban you from their fast-food place, on made up or for highly-exaggerated reasons.Effectively blackmailing people to just grin and bare, the terrible services and at times bad food quality of that fast-food place, because it effectively has a monopoly on that entire small city.

author: jpanhalt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2023, 03:21:19 pm
content: You touch on a couple of items in America that are easily misunderstood. Our First Amendment (freedom of speech, religion, etc.) only applies to government actions, not business actions. However, the back door to that is a claim of discrimination against a "protected class." (Yes, America has a class system.) Mr. Rossmann is probably not a protected class in that sense. Viewpoint, political party, and wealth don't constitute a protected class.Another consideration involves what is commonly called a "place of public accommodation." Here is a quote about Ohio law, which is probably pretty common in every state:QuoteI suspect Mr. Rossmann has already spoken with counsel and knows his options.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2023, 04:19:26 pm
content: Really, Amazon could be making a big mistake, messing around with Louis Rossmann. He has a big Youtube channel with lots of followers (around 2 million subscribers), but is well known in the wider technical communities as well.He also, is what I would consider (not trying to be rude here), a significant 'activist' character. E.g. For things like the right to repair.He also probably creates contacts in the right places, to gain political influence and similar. To attempt to get new laws and stuff in place.I see him as effectively being a modern day news/journalist, and hence should be protected in law. So he can investigate things where necessary and freely report his findings. It use to be that such people officially worked for newspapers and TV studios.But these days, big influential Youtube channels, are a bit like past small community regional newspapers and communication channels (Radio and TV).I'm not sure if freedom of the press laws, are flexible enough to count Louis Rossmann, as an amateur independent, smaller one. Or if the existing laws need to be reviewed (not necessarily just in America), as times are gradually changing/shifting.Edit: In fairness, there is a degree of difference between professional journalists (the press), and big influential Youtube channels. So, I'm not sure how these different, modern day 'roles' should be defined and treated in law.A sort of professional/official journalist on TV or newspaper, vs a modern day amateur Youtube mini journalist like, part time role. But still important, over some issues at times.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2023, 06:02:24 pm
content: QuoteAgainst what?

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2023, 06:26:11 pm
content: If the delivery person was black (in U.S.), they might react negatively to being challenged by the phrase "Can I help you ?", as the feeling, often, is that a white person gets to walk there, unchallenged.But upon unpacking that phrase, especially when it's an unbiased motion detector, in total that wouldn't or shouldn't be interpreted (so fast) as it's really a simple private property incursion. Brings up a legal question regarding front doors and mailboxes. I'd expect to find out that it's legal to go to private front door, but maybe some kind of 'Loitering' time limit, as front yards are still private property.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2023, 06:30:42 pm
content: Quote from: PlainName on June 23, 2023, 06:02:24 pmThis should explain it:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_the_press

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2023, 09:41:56 pm
content: Quote from: MK14 on June 23, 2023, 06:30:42 pmThat's essentially the same as the free speech thing: it prohibits the state from doing stuff. Amazon isn't a state and can do whatever they want, unfettered by this 'protection' stuff. There is actually nothing wrong with that, legally or morally, but many freedom of speech advocates conflate 'everyone and everything' with 'the state'.Personally, I think Amazon are daft. They've not gained anything from cutting off Rossmann and just ensured he's not going to be their friend or give them the benefit of the doubt. Wouldn't've cost them a thing to just ignore it.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2023, 10:44:51 pm
content: Quote from: PlainName on June 23, 2023, 09:41:56 pmAmazon have gained, viz scaring people into not criticising them for fear of losing access to accounts and services.Whether that is a sensible trade-off is not clear to me.Personally it just serves as a reminder why people were so ecstatic to be able to get their data processing out of the clutches of timesharing mainframe computer bureaux, and onto their own PCs.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2023, 03:01:41 pm
content: Quote from: PlainName on June 23, 2023, 09:41:56 pmThe problem is the state and private companies are intertwined. A lot of the censorship on social media has come governments threatening them with more regulation.

author: jpanhalt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2023, 04:17:28 pm
content: Quote from: Zero999 on June 24, 2023, 03:01:41 pmAs I mentioned earlier, there are "backdoor" approaches that limit free speech in America, both for individuals and corporations.Everyone knows about the exception to free speech for yelling "fire" in a crowded theater. Less obvious is an example I quote in context from a well known judge in Ohio, "You can burn the American flag, but you cannot burn a cross." The former is protected free speech; the latter is considered a threat to a protected class.Businesses are subject to that same backdoor and an additional approach based on the "Commerce" clause in our Constitution that allows government(s) to regulate businesses. For example, there are rules regulating advertising alcoholic beverages and tobacco. One recent example is the AG of Minnesota has threatened Target for moving LGBTQ-centered merchandise displays to less prominent locations in its stores. Fourteen other state AG's joined in the letter. The basis was discrimination against another protected class.It's complex, and as the number of protected classes increases, restrictions are increasing.

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2023, 04:36:47 pm
content: PlainName:Sorry, but I beg to differ, and strongly so.Yup, call it 'controversy', call (this) a personal attack (a term often used, in substitute for a simple 'Shut up', we folks don't entertain any conspiracy theorist....United States has a big problem, with media and large corporations getting tangled up together in very inappropriate ways. Go ahead, dismiss dismiss dismiss. Next thing, you might be starting to call (myself) an 'Anti-Vaxer' Musk lover.United States has a big problem, with media and state actors sharing info obtained through shady channels. My 'rants', above, initially are a reference to the newly emphasized tactic, that is, smear your critics. Gaslighting and all that, of course not new, but has become a central playbook to distract from incoming criticism.Some folks, here, have all but abandoned the idea of confronting (the improper relations between certain state actors and many media outlets, including Amazon in whatever capacity they use PR).That is because FACTS don't get through, or seem to get traction, verbally. Just a stiff armed block and a dismissive retort.I'm responding, mainly, for other readers here, that might care to think for themselves.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2023, 04:56:00 pm
content: Quote from: jpanhalt on June 24, 2023, 04:17:28 pmA large number of KKK-style cross-burning episodes burned a cross on the property of an unwanted person, with obvious intent.https://psmag.com/news/cross-burning-is-more-common-than-you-think-72781

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2023, 05:28:33 pm
content: Quote from: TimFox on June 24, 2023, 04:56:00 pmThat's obviously different to one's own private property.In the UK, actor Laurence Fox, put a film of him burning some Pride flags in his back garden and has been investigated by the police for a hate crime. I see it as a stilly stunt, rather than a hate crime. I can see why it will offend some people, but I can also understand why he did it. Either way, he should have the right to do it. No one was harassed, or harmed by his actions.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2023, 05:42:09 pm
content: Quote from: Zero999 on June 24, 2023, 03:01:41 pmI would say it's obvious that the law is never finished and it's never perfect, since it wasn't handed to us on a stone tablet.I think there is a long overdue of extension of free speech, protecting people and free will from corporations and ideology.

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2023, 10:59:51 pm
content: Zero999: I read your comments, about someone harmlessly burning (gay flag), in private backyard, to kind of poke fun at the ease that 'hate speach' labels get put on people.Now, I can't decipher this whole thread, the twists and turns would make my haed explode, on a Saturday morn. But thought of a similar dynamic, (pls see movie, 'BLAZING SADDLES',), where a black dude, simultaneously 'takes his own self as hostage', and also crying out as, 'victim', pleading out for help.Probably several 'hate speech' violations there....or maybe even could be jailed in the EU, for even possessing such satire, or watching...The movie lampooned just about every sensitive group.See also: Kat Timpf's book;'YOU CAN'T SAY THAT'

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2023, 05:29:31 am
content: Quote from: RJHayward on June 24, 2023, 10:59:51 pmPlease don't make ignorant political points.Apart from anything else it makes you look foolish or worse.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2023, 06:31:23 am
content: Quote from: Zero999 on June 24, 2023, 05:28:33 pmHere that would be Constitutionally protected free speech, that won't necessarily prevent one from being cancelled by the mob but they can't be prosecuted for it.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2023, 06:32:55 am
content: Quote from: jpanhalt on June 24, 2023, 04:17:28 pmI don't see how burning a cross on your own property could be considered a threat. Burning a cross in someone else's yard is certainly a threat.

author: jpanhalt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2023, 09:44:57 am
content: @james_sOne way to find out. Do it in your front yard. Or, go to any demonstration in which the American flag is being burned and burn a cross.Did you follow the Bubba Wallace affair in which he accused someone at NASCAR of hanging a noose (Google: Bubba Wallace noose)? Even the FBI got involved to determine whether it was a "hate" crime. The "hate crime" specification is a slippery slope and has already been abused several time. Unfortunately, such imaginary "crimes" -- like the Amazon example for this thread -- are never prosecuted. In the meantime, the lives of those falsely accused are ruined.

author: gnuarm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2023, 11:43:22 am
content: Quote from: langwadt on June 12, 2023, 09:00:27 pmI've never been an Amazon fan. They would never notice my absence. Maybe I should buy a bunch of stuff, then cancel my account. Make them sorry I left.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2023, 06:57:19 pm
content: Quote from: jpanhalt on June 25, 2023, 09:44:57 amI'm not going to try it because I know people would find it offensive and I don't want to offend people, however offending people is not a crime here.Yes I do remember that Bubba Wallace incident, and I thought it was hilarious that it blew up to that extent and then turned out that the "noose" was a simple door pull to enable shorter people to close the rollup door and that it had been there for years. It's a perfect example of one of those situations where someone is looking for hate and bias and sees it all around them in benign things.Personally I don't think "hate crime" should even be a legal concept. A crime is a crime, it makes no difference what motivated the crime. If a person is assaulted or murdered it doesn't matter if it's because the perpetrator didn't like some aspect of their affiliation with a protected class, just wanted to steal their wallet, or engaged in a totally random attack for reasons unknown, the result is exactly the same.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2023, 06:58:27 pm
content: Quote from: gnuarm on June 25, 2023, 11:43:22 amThey won't notice even then, the entire process would be handled by mostly automated systems, you'd be just another drop in the bucket of overall statistical data.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 28, 2023, 04:20:19 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on June 25, 2023, 06:57:19 pmYou need a lot of hate in your heart to think that hate crimes make sense. You can't know what's in someone's head when they do something bad. It just projection. Legally it should be irrelevant. Either some action is acceptable or unacceptable to society. Outlaw the unacceptable.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 28, 2023, 04:56:28 pm
content: QuoteI think that's the problem: trying to outlaw the unacceptable, being specific enough to catch workarounds that skip the letter of a law but not dragging in unintended stuff. A hate crime is basically someone being malicious, but how do you outlaw that?

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 28, 2023, 05:04:39 pm
content: https://www.matthewhoff.com/criminal-defense/domestic-violence-defense/malicious-mischief/https://uscode.house.gov/view.xhtml?path=/prelim@title18/part1/chapter65&edition=prelim"Malicious mischief" is a normal criminal offense, defined by statute (18 USC Ch 65).

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 28, 2023, 05:23:25 pm
content: Malicious mischief is a US thing, and it only covers physical damage. Here in the UK we don't have that. For us, 'hate crime' is calling someone names and upsetting them (bit of poetic license there).

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 28, 2023, 05:31:00 pm
content: "Malicious Mischief" is an offense in Scottish common law.Does the Vatican's canon law include this crime?

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 28, 2023, 05:49:50 pm
content: Scottish law is as foreign as US law as far as we're concerned

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 28, 2023, 06:24:23 pm
content: Even so, one must remember that legal terms in English-speaking countries are made of English, French, and Latin words, but have precise definitionsin lawthat may differ from common usage.Another example is "malice aforethought", which is archaic English for themens rearequired for first-degree murder (as opposed to other forms of illegal homicide).https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/malice_aforethoughtThere was a US case in 1989 where a mistrial resulted from a juror bringing a standard dictionary to the jury room during deliberations, to look up the definition of "malice" that should have been referred to the presiding trial judge.https://www.deseret.com/1989/7/2/18813788/judge-rules-mistrial-after-jurors-use-a-dictionary

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 28, 2023, 09:56:18 pm
content: I'm afraid you've lost me as to how that's relevant, other than that I used 'malicious' in the normal English language meaning to describe a frame of mind. I didn't use it as a legal definition, merely to separate being deliberately (English meaning, not legal, thanks) nasty from unwitting, humorous or other reasonably innocuous actions.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 28, 2023, 10:42:03 pm
content: I was responding to your comment above: "A hate crime is basically someone being malicious, but how do you outlaw that?"In English and American law, intent is a relevant parameter.Hate itself is not criminalized, but used as an aggravating factor for a real crime (assault, etc.).

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 29, 2023, 09:27:42 am
content: OK. I think it's still not relevant because it doesn't answer the question of how you do outlaw hatewithout a separate crime to hang it on. If you're committed some crime then showing you were malicious is already most of the way there, simply because you were being naughty.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 29, 2023, 11:28:43 am
content: There's nothing wrong with hate. It's a perfectly normal human emotion. A good number of crimes are motivated by hate. I don't see why the punishment should be any different, whether the motive is greed, hate or lust. Perhaps the punishment could be lighter if it was accidental i.e. carelessness.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 29, 2023, 11:39:10 am
content: We are not talking, say, burning someone's car or nicking their garden gnomes, but calling them names on twitter and the like. Or 'maliciously displaying' golliwogs. Thus the hate is the crime; it's not a motivation or aggravation of some other crime.

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 29, 2023, 01:25:53 pm
content: An increasing number of humans live in a reality where events are completely random, and only emotions have true meaning.To them, an action or an event can be either positive or negative, depending only on the emotions and experiences of the people involved.Observe people and examine their logic or reasoning, and you can see this for yourself. I personally do not like it, but there is nothing evil or wrong involved in it per se; it is just some kind of cultural change that I suppose is related to the effect of immersive social media on human reasoning and social adaptation.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 29, 2023, 02:12:44 pm
content: Quote from: Nominal Animal on June 29, 2023, 01:25:53 pmI've noticed as society has become progressively safer, the bar to what constitutes harm has been lowered.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 29, 2023, 03:41:07 pm
content: That evolution (assuming the society truly is safer) seems natural.Away from warfare (national and civil), the violent death rate has come down in the world.https://ourworldindata.org/homicides

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 29, 2023, 04:17:56 pm
content: Might it be like risk compensation? Maybe we have a subconscious 'crime' quota that needs to be maintained!

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 29, 2023, 05:20:16 pm
content: Quote from: Zero999 on June 29, 2023, 11:28:43 amTypically the punishment is lighter if it's accidental. Negligent homicide for example is a much lighter charge than murder, it can be used when somebody does something careless that results in the death of another person.I agree there is no need to outlaw hate, there's no way that can work anyway, you can't prevent a person from hating something/somebody, all you can do is make them keep it in their own head. Trying to force someone to change their view or opinion never works as intended, it only reinforces it.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 29, 2023, 05:23:37 pm
content: Quote from: Zero999 on June 29, 2023, 02:12:44 pmThat's expected and an innate component of human psychology. Virtually everything is relative, just as your eyes will adjust to ambient light levels the rest of our senses will adjust to surroundings. A person that grew up in a war torn 3rd would nation would probably feel safe in the worst parts of Philadelphia or Detroit, at least for a while. When you eliminate the biggest problem, something else becomes the biggest problem.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 29, 2023, 05:25:41 pm
content: Quote from: PlainName on June 29, 2023, 11:39:10 amDestroying or stealing someone's property is a crime, it inflicts direct harm and deprives them of something they have worked for. Calling someone names on Twitter is not a crime, at least not in any reasonable society. Remember "sticks and stones will break my bones but words will never hurt me"?Words can do no harm unless you let them. Especially in the case of online situations it is so incredibly easy to simply ignore something.

author: gnuarm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 29, 2023, 05:34:51 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on June 25, 2023, 06:58:27 pmI guess I should have added a smiley. ;-)

author: gnuarm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 29, 2023, 05:38:08 pm
content: Quote from: Zero999 on June 29, 2023, 11:28:43 amYes, there is something wrong with hate. The crime committed may be relatively innocuous, such as placing something on a lawn. But if the message sent was onerous enough, it requires a much more severe punishment.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 29, 2023, 05:38:56 pm
content: In criminal law, there are "mitigating" circumstances that result in a reduced punishment and "aggravating" circumstances that result in increased punishment.A recent example of the latter was the mass shooting at a Pittsburgh synagogue.The defendant was convicted this month in Federal court of multiple charges that included the current version of the "Hate Crimes Prevention Act" and is about to be sentenced.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matthew_Shepard_and_James_Byrd_Jr._Hate_Crimes_Prevention_ActEvidence for the "hate" part included copious postings of anti-Semitic and racist rants on social media.As passed, the revised Act contains a "Rule of Construction" which specifically provides that "Nothing in this Act...shall be construed to prohibit any expressive conduct protected from legal prohibition by, or any activities protected by the free speech or free exercise clauses of, the First Amendment to the Constitution"."Hate crime" is defined as "a crime in which the defendant intentionally selects a victim, or in the case of a property crime, the property that is the object of the crime, because of the actual or perceived race, color, religion, national origin, ethnicity, gender, disability, or sexual orientation of any person."

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 29, 2023, 05:42:17 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on June 29, 2023, 05:25:41 pmPlease keep up with the thread - over here that kind of thing is made out to be a crime. The aforementioned display of golliwogs had a bunch of police turn up to remove them and take the offender in for questioning. You can get nicked for being nasty on twitter.I think that even where you are, if you start racist shit you'll be taken in, won't you? But that's just sticks and stones. As is transgender stuff (which has also resulted in a court appearance here). So, way back in this thread,coppicesaid (in response to you, and with my emphasis):QuoteAnd I replied:Quote from: PlainName on June 28, 2023, 04:56:28 pmAs such, I am asking how hate crime could be outlawed without it going too far.I trust you are now up to date and can follow the thread on your own from here on.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 29, 2023, 05:58:01 pm
content: Quote from: PlainName on June 29, 2023, 05:42:17 pmWell, I said "in any reasonable society", there are of course unreasonable and rather dystopian societies in the world.No. You may be tried, convicted and sentenced in the court of public opinion, you could find yourself out of a job and banished from social circles but you cannot be arrested and charged with a crime for saying racist things, it's protected free speech. In order to be arrested for saying something it has to be either a threat of physical harm or direct harassment of an individual. It is perfectly legal to be a bigot, we still have a handful of neonazis and such, they're free to speak their opinions and the rest of us are free to think they're idiots. Trying to fight ideas and beliefs with force simply doesn't work, it only drives it underground.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 29, 2023, 07:09:11 pm
content: Quote from: gnuarm on June 29, 2023, 05:38:08 pmWhat's wrong with hate?QuoteWhy?Quote from: PlainName on June 29, 2023, 05:42:17 pmThey only do something about racism, if it's directed at protected minorities, otherwise it's sticks and stones.It's not possible to outlaw everything which is unacceptable. As has been hinted at above: it's impossible to determine the rational behind someone's actions and even if it's obvious, it should the their actions which need to be punished. For example burning the pride flag might offend people, but it should be protected free speech. I don't agree with everything Laurence Fox says, but I'm familiar enough with his views to know he wasn't advocating violence. My guess is he disagrees with trans activists, who only represent a tiny minority.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 29, 2023, 07:31:47 pm
content: Several posters have given their opinion that a crime (e.g., assault) stands on its own and the motivation (e.g., hatred) is irrelevant to the legal proceedings.Based on my reading of current US Federal Law (as I discussed above), the laws in the United States about "hate crime" vs. "regular crime" can be summarized as follows:1. If you hate a person for an individual reason (e.g., he's a jerk, he's your boss, he stole your girlfriend), you cannot control your emotions, and you assault him, that is a "regular crime".2. If you hate a recognizable group (e.g. race, religion, sexual orientation) and commit assault against a random member of that group or a larger number (e.g., congregation), the law may presume that this act was not only an assault on the specific victims, but an attempt to intimidate the larger group. In that case, the statutes against "hate crime" may come into effect.I don't know what Magna Carta says about that issue in other countries.

author: gnuarm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 29, 2023, 07:50:22 pm
content: Quote from: Zero999 on June 29, 2023, 07:09:11 pmWhen combined with illegal acts, it can be a form of terrorism. I suppose it is not actually the "hate" that is the crime, it is the action.QuoteThe example of placing something on the lawn should clarify the matter. If you throw toilet paper in someone's trees as a prank, that's simply a nuisance. If you place a burning cross on someone's lawn, that sends a message of hate, which will almost certainly cause fear by the recipient.Yes, that requires a stronger punishment. If you can't see that, I don't know what you are missing.QuoteHuh? Who else would racist acts be directed toward? I'm not following what you are saying.QuoteSome things are protected free speech, others are not. Burning a flag is not in itself illegal. That some people find it offensive is not a legal issue. The point is if the act was done in a way that violated the laws.Most of these sorts of conversations hinge on the definition of words. Calling it a "hate" crime is not actually useful. To understand the law, requires reading the actual text of the law, and how it is enforced. Often, in discussions, people make up examples that have never happened. But in any case, most people are just arguing, without dealing with reality.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 29, 2023, 08:24:55 pm
content: Quote from: gnuarm on June 29, 2023, 07:50:22 pmI agree.QuoteWhat about my lawn? If I want to burn a cross on it, then should have every right to do so.QuoteThe majority, who are subject to systemic racism, by certain big organisations, in the name of diversity, inclusion and equity.QuoteThe law in many parts of the world, especially Europe has slowly being shifting towards criminalising anything which might offend a minority. Now we have co-operations such as Amazon, who are taking the law into their own hands, by penalising customers who they believe are guilty of offending a minority. We need to fight this. Not allowing them to control your home with IoT is a start, but there are other ways they can come after you.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 29, 2023, 09:06:24 pm
content: QuoteWhen seat belts became compulsory A&E departments went quiet, then the injured slowly crept back up. Saying the best safety measure for a car is a big spike sticking out of the middle of the steering wheel is not just said in jest. People slowly bring their risks to some equilibrium. Now society has become so safe they are making up bogus risks to achieve some weird kind of equilibrium.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 29, 2023, 09:09:09 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on June 29, 2023, 09:06:24 pmI think there is some truth to that. Cars in my opinion are too safe now, they go to absurd lengths for safety which makes them very complicated and expensive and a lot of these safety assist features simply enable people to engage in risky behavior.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 29, 2023, 09:09:40 pm
content: Quote from: Zero999 on June 29, 2023, 08:24:55 pmIf you criminalise vague notions of offence you criminalise everything. There isn't a single thing I can say that won't offend someone. We have a duty to offend, although its impolite to make a habit of it.

author: gnuarm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 29, 2023, 10:12:59 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on June 29, 2023, 09:09:09 pmYes, making a car safer will be more expensive than a car that is unsafe. Drawing the line is an arbitrary choice. But it is a choice that must be made. It's easy to point fingers and claim things are done badly, especially when a person doesn't actually know anything about the details.

author: gnuarm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 29, 2023, 10:16:01 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on June 29, 2023, 09:06:24 pmOh, yes. When I drive, I don't worry with the speedometer. I maintain a constant risk level as indicated by the risk-o-meter. I'm so glad they added those. I understand Tesla is going to incorporate that into the autopilot, enabling the car to operate at speeds only limited by perceived risk.

author: gnuarm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 29, 2023, 10:17:50 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on June 29, 2023, 09:09:09 pmIt's especially annoying that the annual death rate is still so high. In the US, it's around 30,000 to 35,000 each year. If those safety features are not going to save us all, then we need to ditch them and let every man fend for himself!

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 29, 2023, 10:32:04 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on June 29, 2023, 09:09:40 pmYes, but that's maybe the whole point.Getting people not to really know where they stand relative to the law, always on the fence.Giving clear rules and enforcing them consistently is how you train animals.Unclear rules that you sometimes enforce, sometimes not, this is how you turn a pet into a crazy dysfunctional living being.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 29, 2023, 11:02:59 pm
content: Quote from: gnuarm on June 29, 2023, 10:16:01 pmNow there speaks someone who has never looked at the statistics of how people actually behave when regulations change.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2023, 12:25:10 am
content: Quote from: gnuarm on June 29, 2023, 10:16:01 pmThat's not how it works, it's not like people perform some kind of scientific calculation, but they are definitely less cautious the safer they perceive the vehicle to be. People will text, play with the radio, drive too fast for conditions, etc, and this is getting worse and worse.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2023, 12:33:33 am
content: Quote from: gnuarm on June 29, 2023, 10:17:50 pmThat's bordering on a strawman argument. We don't need to ditch all the safety features, but I do think we could ditch some of them. Get rid of stuff like lane departure warnings and automatic lane holding, automatic braking, etc. I'd love to get rid of automatic transmissions too but I know that would never fly. Now they need stuff like active stability systems because people are too dumb to figure out that a stupidly tall SUV doesn't handle like a roadster. When you reduce driver workload it is enabling people to focus on other things, most often that is their mobile phone, or sometimes the gadgets integrated into the car itself. These stupid infotainment systems are so complicated that people play with the touchscreens on those while flying down the highway and don't pay attention to where they're going. Then there are the backup cameras and backup warning systems that people become completely reliant on, multiple times I've seen somebody back right over something because it didn't trigger the stupid beeping sound and they weren't even looking behind them. There needs to be a focus on pushing people to focus on DRIVING THE CAR when they're driving a car. Put down the phone, quit fooling with the radio, stop putting on makeup, eating lunch and everything else, and just drive the goddamned car, that's your one task when you're behind the wheel. Whenever I bus to the office I constantly see people doing all manner of things while driving that in my mind you just don't do. When I drive, I focus 100% on driving, and the result is after nearly 3 decades of doing so I have still never caused an accident.

author: gnuarm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2023, 05:05:53 am
content: Quote from: james_s on June 30, 2023, 12:25:10 amSure they do. Don't you have a risk factor setting on your cruise control?QuoteSo, wedoneed to put a spike on the steering wheel? To prevent fast lane changes and cornering, the wheel itself should have razor blades. We can find all manner of things to make carsseemmore dangerous. I bet that will make the much safer.I'm not going to stop saying stupid things, until you do.

author: gnuarm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2023, 05:11:12 am
content: Quote from: james_s on June 30, 2023, 12:33:33 amWhich side of the border? Will I need a passport to cross?QuoteEveryone is entitled to their opinion. I give your opinions all the consideration they deserve.QuoteYou seem to be the type of person who thinks everyone else is a moron. All problems are caused by others being morons. Your entire rational is that other people drive like morons, so instead of making the roads safer by any means we can, we should simply whine about how other people are causing all the problems on the roads.I hope that someday, you might actually look at a fact. But then you would need to recognize it, which you might be no longer able to do.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2023, 08:40:33 am
content: Quote from: gnuarm on June 30, 2023, 05:05:53 amWouldn't help. Initially it might have a big effect (depending on whether the driver realised how dangerous it was - some wouldn't) but the long the driver didn't get spiked the more relaxed they get about it. They would be used to it.Consider things like chainsaw use: professionals (appear to) always use proper protective clothing because they do it so often it is just habit, whereas your average domestic gardener will buy and use the right stuff initially, then gradually discard stuff as it gets in the way, is too hot on a hot day, can't be bothered just for one branch, etc.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2023, 04:15:00 pm
content: I've read an interesting article, as to the most dangerous part of a car. Apparently, there is a nut, holding the steering wheel in place, that must be kept tight enough. Because, almost all car accidents, are caused by the nut behind the wheel.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2023, 04:17:02 pm
content: It does not help if the nut behind the wheel is tight.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2023, 04:20:14 pm
content: Quote from: TimFox on June 30, 2023, 04:17:02 pmIt does help, if they know how to drive safely, and take care.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2023, 05:46:02 pm
content: Quote from: gnuarm on June 30, 2023, 05:05:53 amNo, obviously the risk factor calculation is done in my head. For example when the weather is nice and the roads are dry and relatively clear I'll set the cruise control to a faster speed because my risk of being in an accident is lower. If it's rainy, or the roads are unfamiliar, or there is a lot of traffic then the risk is higher so I will drive more slowly. My behavior is absolutely based on risk, why are you obsessing over some kind of fictional risk indicator device?As for the other stuff you are totally over into strawman territory there, spikes are razor blades? Are you on drugs? Absolutely nobody is seriously suggesting adding intentionally dangerous features.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2023, 05:55:32 pm
content: Quote from: gnuarm on June 30, 2023, 05:11:12 amQuite a few people are morons, at least they act like one, this is clearly illustrated by their behavior. I have never caused an accident, ever. I have been rear ended 6 or 7 times in my life, in every single case I was stopped when it happened. In every single case it was because the person that hit me was not paying attention and not watching where they're going, in other words they were driving like a moron, this is a fact based on personal experience. Every time I bus to work I see multiple people in cars looking down at a phone that is in their lap where they think nobody can see them doing it, distracted driving now kills as many people as drunk driving, it's a very serious problem, again a fact that is backed up by accident data. So yes, in my experience other people are causing all the problems on roads, I've never caused an accident, they have, that's not an opinion, it's an objectively true fact and all of the gadgets and features that are intended to reduce the number of accidents have not reduced the number of accidents. This is not my emotional opinion, it is a fact based on a large range of data and it correlates with my own observation.You say you hope some day I might look at a fact but it seems you are projecting, it is you that is ignoring facts and arguing on an emotional level.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2023, 06:25:56 pm
content: Not everyone else in life is a moron, but I assume the other drivers about me are morons and pay attention to their potentially dangerous or stupid moves.When I was driving to work (before retirement), I was often rear-ended in stop-and-go-traffic, but my heavy Fords had real metal bumpers and left Japanese plastic on the roadway.

author: gnuarm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2023, 07:16:02 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on June 30, 2023, 05:55:32 pmYour post shows exactly what I mean. Your opinion is based solely on what has happened to you, as if what happens to you is what happens to everyone. You wear blinders to what is actually happening in the world, cut off from it by your prejudices.You cite information that something is a problem, while maintaining that other solutions to that problem need to be cut back because of your silly notions.It's clear there is no point to continuing this discussion. So, I'm done. Bye.

author: AndyBeez
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2023, 08:08:54 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on June 30, 2023, 05:55:32 pmBest advice from an ex-British Army driving instructor was, assume everyone else is dumb. Hence his saying, defensive driving means, you have to do everyone else's thinking for them, even if they went to college.You can become almost psychic, knowing that in three... two... one... those men in lycra are going to undercut the articulated lorry which is already positioned and indicating to turn. Looking through a visor or a windshield is an idiot watch. Am I the only one reading the road? With the advent ofdriverlesscars, can AI anticipate the random actions of other drivers? Seems that AI driven vehicles are very fast at reacting to hazards, but not so good at anticipating them.

author: Bryn
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2023, 08:37:52 pm
content: When I first saw the thread title, I thought it was a joke... can't believe that actually happened.Also, smart homes are an unnecessary luxury which only makes things worse instead of better for the consumer, a bit like anything "smart" these days...

author: Infraviolet
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2023, 09:01:17 pm
content: Smart, perhaps best considered as an acronym for "Surveillance, Monitoring And Repression Technologies", although I think that backronym could be reworded to emphasise the vendor-lock-in nature of "smart" devices as well.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2023, 09:14:32 pm
content: Quote from: AndyBeez on June 30, 2023, 08:08:54 pmVery good point.I reckon they could learn to predict, but it'd take a lot of smashes to get as good as us

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2023, 09:15:47 pm
content: Anyone claiming cars gaining more safety features hasn't resulted in a reduction in fatalities is mistaken. In the US, the number of road deaths per mile has been in decline, since the widespread adoption of the automobile.https://injuryfacts.nsc.org/motor-vehicle/historical-fatality-trends/deaths-and-rates/

author: gnuarm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2023, 09:22:29 pm
content: Quote from: PlainName on June 30, 2023, 09:14:32 pmThey are already better than human drivers. Well, technically, "they" are autopilots combined with human monitors, but according to the argument, the more the car does, the less the human will do. So... fatality rates are already lower with the autopilot technology.Job done!

author: gnuarm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2023, 09:23:20 pm
content: Quote from: Zero999 on June 30, 2023, 09:15:47 pmHEY! Don't confuse them with the facts!!!

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2023, 09:40:21 pm
content: Quote from: gnuarm on June 30, 2023, 09:23:20 pmBut they have driven for many years or decades, without crashing the car. Which means that they are a world authority on automotive safety and anything that comes into their mind, is guaranteed to be the safest and most correct idea, ever.In the same way, a person who knows nothing about electronics, but hasn't got an electric shock in the last few decades, is a world expert on electrical and electronic safety, and can design complicated electronic devices, despite not actually knowing what a transistor, diode, resistor or even a PCB, actually is.Edit: It was intended to be a sarcastic response. Striked out, to avoid further confusion.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2023, 09:51:21 pm
content: Quote from: MK14 on June 30, 2023, 09:40:21 pmI did not say this, not even remotely, do not claim that I did.I'm not the world authority on automotive safety, and I have never claimed that any idea I come up with is the safest and most correct idea ever, why are you posting these blatant lies about me? I said that the data clearly supports that I'm a better driver than a lot of people, and I do not play with my phone or do other things while driving. Are you suggesting that distracted driving is perfectly ok and that we should keep creating crutches to enable it? Are you claiming that I'm lying and that I do play with my phone and such while driving? Are you claiming that I am lying when I say that I evaluate risk and modify my behavior in order to keep my perceived risk below some acceptable level? Are you claiming that you don't do the same? Do you deny that accident rates have been increasing and highway deaths have also increased in recent years? Please point out what I have said that is incorrect and provide the correct data.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2023, 09:52:52 pm
content: Quote from: gnuarm on June 30, 2023, 09:23:20 pmThe US is hardly unique. Other countries show a similar trend. I just chose the US, because it was easy to find long term data.By the way, the main reason why the US has a higher rate of road deaths per capita, compared to other wealthy countries is because people generally drive more miles there.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2023, 09:54:20 pm
content: Quote from: gnuarm on June 30, 2023, 09:23:20 pmI said accidents, not deaths, work on your reading comprehension before accusing someone else of being stupid.Deaths too have been increasing recently though, here are some facts straight from the NHTSA. 'NHTSA Early Estimates Show Record Increase in Fatalities Nationwide"Why are you getting so emotional about this?https://www.nhtsa.gov/press-releases/early-estimates-first-quarter-2022

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2023, 09:55:49 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on June 30, 2023, 09:51:21 pmFirstly, it was sarcasm. To make a point.But, being sarcastic, without mentioning it specifically, is potentially problematic over the internet, especially between differing countries and where we can't see each other, face to face. Because it could be easily misinterpreted.I'll think about it, but potentially decide that I SHOULD NOT have posted it in that way (sarcastic).

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2023, 10:02:34 pm
content: Quote from: Zero999 on June 30, 2023, 09:52:52 pmSo what's your explanation for the markedly higher rate of road deaths per mile?

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2023, 10:03:03 pm
content: Quote from: AndyBeez on June 30, 2023, 08:08:54 pmThat assumption has saved me from many accidents, I'm always expecting other drivers to do stupid things and too often I'm right. It's not like this is some baseless speculation or feeling, it's the direct result of driving hundreds of thousands of miles and observing this behavior with my own eyes. It's also been studied, one referenced here that distracted driving is more dangerous than driving drunk.https://www.conradattorneys.com/blog/is-distracted-driving-more-hazardous-than-drink-driving/#:~:text=The%20National%20Highway%20Traffic%20Safety,road%20for%20about%20five%20seconds.It doesn't mean that people are intellectually stupid, but a lot of people are simply terrible drivers, and there is plenty of data to back this up. I kind of wonder if the people protesting loudly are people that make a habit of doing things like using their phone while driving and they are upset someone is pointing out that this is moronic and dangerous behavior. I have a friend like that, nice guy but it's terrifying to ride with him, he's always on the phone and messing with stuff, he thinks he can multitask but he can't, there have been several close calls while I was in the car with him. I'm quite frankly surprised at the strong emotional reactions from some, I never thought it would be controversial to point out that there are a lot of bad drivers out there, or that a lot of people are stupid, George Carlin had a classic line about that "Just think how stupid the average person is, then realize that half of them are stupider than that!" There are a lot of dumb people out there, and I'd have thought that most people on an engineering forum where people are overall probably smarter than average would have been frustrated by this many times in life.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2023, 10:06:24 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on June 30, 2023, 10:02:34 pmCultural norms perhaps? Or maybe it's just easier to get a license here? Or the training is worse? I know very little about driver licensing requirements in other parts of the world but in the US it is very easy to get a license at age 16. Our traffic accident and death statistics are skewed by teenagers who have dramatically higher accident rates than older adults."The crash rate of drivers ages 16-17 years was nearly double that of drivers ages 18-19 and approximately 4.5 times that of drivers ages 30-39, 40-49, and 50-59 (Table 1). Drivers ages 60-69 had the lowest crash rate."https://aaafoundation.org/rates-motor-vehicle-crashes-injuries-deaths-relation-driver-age-united-states-2014-2015/#:~:text=The%20crash%20rate%20of%20drivers,had%20the%20lowest%20crash%20rate.

author: gnuarm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2023, 10:10:50 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on June 30, 2023, 10:02:34 pmWhere? In the US it is not "markedly higher". What exactly are you referring to? Can you give a reference?

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2023, 10:12:57 pm
content: Quote from: Zero999 on June 30, 2023, 09:15:47 pmI don't think anyone is claiming that.Deaths are only a small part of the picture. There is a much larger number of accidents that don't result in deaths, but many of those do result in injuries, and many others result in billions of dollars in property damage. Several years ago I was rear ended by a distracted driver, I was not killed or even injured, but my car was destroyed simply because someone decided their text message or whatever they were doing was more important than my property. Perhaps if they knew they were at a greater risk of getting hurt if they hit someone they would have paid more attention to what they were doing. I've yet to see someone texting while riding a motorcycle, motorcycles are dangerous and require the rider to pay attention.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2023, 10:14:58 pm
content: Quote from: gnuarm on June 30, 2023, 10:10:50 pmYou did read the context?

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2023, 10:16:56 pm
content: Quote from: gnuarm on June 30, 2023, 10:10:50 pmI have not personally confirmed this to be accurate but here it is:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_traffic-related_death_rateRoad deaths per 1 billion km driven, USA 8.3, UK 3.8, that is certainly what I would call "markedly higher", it's more than double. Just scanning down the list the USA is higher than the majority of other developed nations.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2023, 10:55:27 pm
content: QuotePedantically, average is not necessarily the halfway mark. You could have an average where most of the population are above it

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2023, 11:03:51 pm
content: Speaking of roadaccidents, it occurred to me the other day that the rates in UK towns is surely set to rise significantly. Reason being the food delivery guys (and maybe gals, but they all seem to be guys) - they are zipping around on scooters with L plates, and many of them seem to have never driven anything on the road before these things, partly because they weren't old enough and have just upgraded from a bicycle. Some of them seem to think it's a workable alternative to Dignitas.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2023, 11:16:37 pm
content: Quote from: PlainName on June 30, 2023, 11:03:51 pmOh, they're an ever increasing nightmare. As is the easily availability of 'e-scooters' (daft electrically powered vehicles with no construction or use standards applied..).

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2023, 11:32:42 pm
content: Quotewonder how many have bothered with there cbt

author: Kim Christensen
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2023, 12:37:48 am
content: Quote from: PlainName on June 30, 2023, 10:55:27 pmWell, since Carlin was telling the joke to an "average" audience, he avoided the word "median" so as not to confuse them.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2023, 01:22:22 am
content: Quote from: PlainName on June 30, 2023, 10:55:27 pmWell George Carlin was a comedian, not a mathematician or engineer. It's meant as a joke obviously, but there is some truth to it.

author: gnuarm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2023, 01:53:41 am
content: Quote from: PlainName on June 30, 2023, 10:55:27 pmIf you are measuring IQ, it is symmetric with 100 being, median, mean and mode. Some comedian said, "Consider that half the people have IQs below 100!"

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 01, 2023, 09:06:11 am
content: Quote from: Monkeh on June 30, 2023, 11:16:37 pmElectric scooters are illegal. They cannot be used on roads as they are unlicensed and unapproved vehicles and the cannot be used on pavements because they are vehicles. But as we don't have enough police in this country they are not being taken off the idiots that ride them and destroyed.I really don't know why their import is even allowed, the justifiable use for them only on private land is so near non existent that it is the sole legal caveat for them to exist, yet people openly purchase them as a means of transport.

author: gnuarm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2023, 09:34:28 am
content: Quote from: Simon on July 01, 2023, 09:06:11 amWow! I'm surprised anyone gives a crap about them. I don't think I've ever seen one used.BTW, they are not illegal everywhere. I recall years ago, I lived somewhere that had very delineated rules about what amounts to mopeds. If the engine was too powerful, they were illegal. If the wheels were too large, they were illegal. To be a motorcycle the wheels had to be a bunch bigger, to be a moped the engine was very limited.Oddly enough, there were some sort of hot rod, miniature motorcycles that were not legal because they fell into this illegal half way domain. It made little sense to me. Why not make a category for such things, rather than outlaw them entirely? Maybe they could not meet safety standards?

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2023, 10:04:58 am
content: Quote from: gnuarm on July 01, 2023, 09:34:28 amElectric scooters aren't completely illegal in the UK: you are allowed to hire them from a number of designated companies (e.g.Voi). There is an infestation of them in my nearest city, causing blocked pavements and delayed journeys where they can't be safely overtaken.They are speed limited (15.5mph?) and supposedly geofenced. You have to have a driver's licence and be 18+. That does not, of course prevent youngsters getting hold of them and injuring themselves and others.They are promoted as a fun instant-gratification way of getting around a city (cf a bus!). That leads people to being too carefree and thoughless, and hence ride dangerously.Not sure whether the riders are required to have insurance, which will be an expensive problem for a car driver involved in an accident.All other electric bikes are legal only on private land with the landowner's permission.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 01, 2023, 10:05:21 am
content: In the UK you can use them legally only on private land. There are rental schemes where you need a driver license and the scooters are approved, but somehow kids end up with them on pavements and the adults using them on the road clearly forgot that they are driving a motor vehicle and behave dangerously.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2023, 10:17:59 am
content: Around here there's a chap who rides a sit-on monowheel and wears the full protective gear (bike helmet, leathers) because it will save him from being damaged by the pedestrians he might mow down. Rides through the middle of town in the pedestrian precinct, along the pavement out of the town centre. And is employed at the council office, so clearly they don't give a shit. Not cool to nick one of their own, you know, and parking tickets are more lucrative.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2023, 12:21:47 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on July 01, 2023, 10:05:21 amYes, exactly as I wrote

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2023, 12:26:09 pm
content: Quote from: PlainName on July 01, 2023, 10:17:59 amIf there are any laws specifically for monocycles, I expect they will be the same as for tricycles and bicycles.I used to work in a (fur lined) cube farm. Sometimes there was a whoosh followed by a crump, as someone learning to use a monocyle whizzed past and hit a shoulder-height partition. Separately, before the farm was fully populated, another person used to lay his parachute out on the floor to air, before repacking it. Happy daze.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2023, 04:26:05 pm
content: Quote from: PlainName on June 30, 2023, 10:55:27 pmSo, you don't think intelligence doesn't follow a Gaussian distribution? You have some reason why it might not have a stable mean, and not follow the central limit theorem? Perhaps you think its more like a Pareto distribution?

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2023, 04:32:22 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on July 01, 2023, 04:26:05 pmI have no idea - I was just making a joke out of being a pedant, and put a smiley on it in an attempt to give the humourless a clue.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2023, 04:32:28 pm
content: I doubt that measured "IQ" is a truly valid quantitative measurement of anything beyond the ability to score on IQ tests.However, in current psychometry the scores are normalized to a normal (Gaussian) distribution with mean = 100 and standard deviation = 15.In that distribution, (the median) = (the mean) = (the mode).

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2023, 04:37:33 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on July 01, 2023, 04:26:05 pmWe do not know the shape of theg factor distribution, and it might not have a nice normal distribution, although somewhat normal (Gaussian) is considered most likely.Intelligence test scores arenormalizedto a Gaussian distribution within the target population, so the fact that any set of IQ test results converges to a normal distribution is expected from the test scoring calibration directly, and does not require the measured aspects of intelligence to have a normal distribution at all.Quote from: TimFox on July 01, 2023, 04:32:28 pmPrincipal components analysis done on large enough datasets (IQ-style questions), to uncover the relative g factors of participating humans, does seem to be a valid measurement ofsomething: see e.g.practical validitychapter of the Wikipedia g-factor article for references.I find the g factor to have a rational basis, and the principal component analysis (assuming sufficiently large number of individual questions) should erase most types of e.g. cultural biases, assuming the medium used (paper, computer, oral, whatever) for the questions is equally familiar to all participants.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2023, 04:55:07 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on June 30, 2023, 10:16:56 pmAs you've said, I suspect it's due to more younger drivers and perhaps the road layouts, which are responsible for the higher number of road deaths per mile in the US, compared to the UK. I don't know about the US, but here it's quite difficult to pass the driving test, which consists of a theory, as well as a practical test, there's a blanket speed limit of 30 mph in residential areas, dropping to 20 mph in high risk areas and separate lanes, even roads for cyclists.Quote from: TimFox on July 01, 2023, 04:32:28 pmIQ correlates very well with success in many areas of life. Interestingly sex makes a difference: the male population have a greater variance in IQ, which is less n females i.e. there are more male, than female, geniuses, but there are more males with learning disabilities. This explains why there are disproportionately more boys in gifted student programmes, as well as special schools.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2023, 05:21:17 pm
content: Quote from: TimFox on July 01, 2023, 04:32:28 pmIn all of the study of human capability and behaviour, IQ scores have the best correlation with lifetime outcomes. The second best correlation is things which are measuring industriousness in some form. Someone who scores high in both IQ and industriousness generally does very well. IQ doesn't measure what most of us would consider "smartness". People seem to use that word as some hybrid of IQ and wisdom, which are rather different things. An industrious, high IQ person who lacks the wisdom to pursue meaningful goals can have a very bad outcome. A high IQ often allows people to rationalise stupid things a lesser IQ person would just consider dumb.IQ values are on a very compressed scale. Is a person with an IQ of 140 only 40% more capable in problem solving? No, they are far more capable than that. Similarly, is someone with an IQ of 80 only 20% less capable than the average? No, they are barely able to take care of themselves. Perhaps the scaling was chosen specifically to make people feel better about their differences.

author: gnuarm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2023, 05:44:38 pm
content: Why are people saying US fatal accident rates have increased lately? I am not able to find any data to support this. Of course, the total death count is much more readily available.Does anyone have a source to support this claim? Or did I misunderstand what was being said?

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2023, 01:30:29 pm
content: Quote from: gnuarm on July 01, 2023, 05:44:38 pmBecause they have. You can't have looked very hard.The quick version:https://crashstats.nhtsa.dot.gov/Api/Public/ViewPublication/813124https://crashstats.nhtsa.dot.gov/Api/Public/ViewPublication/813321https://crashstats.nhtsa.dot.gov/Api/Public/ViewPublication/813454It's curious to me how they limited the context in the most recent publication..Oh, and let's put the preliminary 2022 numbers in play:https://crashstats.nhtsa.dot.gov/Api/Public/ViewPublication/813428

author: gnuarm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2023, 05:38:07 pm
content: Interesting. If you look at the most recent data, you see that not only did the numbers increase in 2020, but the step function occurred in 2nd quarter, 2020! I can't think of anything that happened in 1st or 2nd quarter of 2020 to cause such a step function.This would indicate a change in the way the data is collected and/or processed, not an actual change in the thing being measured.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2023, 05:44:46 pm
content: Quote from: gnuarm on July 02, 2023, 05:38:07 pmOr it does indicate a change in the data being measured that you just don't want to see. The criteria didn't change, the methods didn't change.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2023, 05:48:53 pm
content: QuoteCovid lockdown? Over here that resulted in clear roads, so drivers were doing stupid speeds expecting not to meet something in the way. I can easily imagine a higher death rate despite fewer miles travelled.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2023, 06:05:06 pm
content: I remember this incidenthttps://www.cnn.com/2020/04/15/us/chicago-kennedy-expressway-pileup-trnd/index.htmlin Chicago, during the early Covid lockdown in Illinois.The expressway had relatively little traffic due to the lockdown, and iced up badly.This was followed by perhaps not-so-intelligent driving.Luckily, no fatalities.However, 2020 and 2021 were bad for traffic fatalities in Illinois.An example of postings from personal-injury attornies:https://www.chicagolawyer.com/blog/chicago-car-accident-statistics-for-2022/

author: gnuarm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2023, 06:32:35 pm
content: Quote from: PlainName on July 02, 2023, 05:48:53 pmSure,ifthe step had gone away after things opened up again. But this step has remained. It was both abrupt, and significant, around 30%!I don't follow why you think reducing the number of miles driven, would increase the death rate per mile. It's not like cars spontaneously blow up on their own. In fact, fewer people on the roads should result in safer driving with fewer fatalities, I would think. While the number of people on the roads dropped, Ineversaw "clear" roads.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2023, 09:28:51 pm
content: QuoteMight, not would. And it's not just my idea.The thinking is that with less traffic drivers drive more carelessly (because there's nothing to get in the way) and when something does get in the way the resulting damage is worse because of the higher speeds and lack of attention. There was actually quite a lot on this in the papers at the time, because the police were picking up serious speeders where normally congestion would tamp it down.So, fewer vehicles implies fewer miles for a given period, and higher carelessness can lead to more incidents per driven mile (even though the absolute number of incidents might reduce).Anyone else not able to grasp that? Like is it me unable to explain an idea or am I being played?

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2023, 09:32:52 pm
content: The April 15, 2020 pileup in Chicago I cited above was the first thing I thought of when the question of increased traffic crashes starting in 2020 arose.As I remember, the serious Covid shutdown in Illinois started on March 18 of that year, and expressway traffic had decreased greatly, allowing higher speeds.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2023, 09:35:04 pm
content: Quote from: PlainName on July 02, 2023, 09:28:51 pmYou're pretty much on the money, and the statistics in most countries I've looked at follow that trend - fewer total accidents due to less driving, more accidents per mile.During and immediately after the lockdowns around here was.. bizarre and dodgy. Between the people who'd got used to ignoring speed limits and give way signs because nobody else was on the road, and the ones who hadn't driven for several months, things were quite exciting.Quite why the rate has remained so high in the US I can't say. The numbers are, however, beginning to fall towards their usual unacceptable levels.

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2023, 10:15:21 pm
content: I noticed the safe road culture in Norway back in 1993, on a bicycle trip from Kilpisjärvi to Tromsø and back. Even the fully loaded ore trucks gave plenty of way, moving clearly to the other lane when passing us bicyclists.I like that sort of tolerance. It made for a very fun, safe cycling trip.I don't like the sort of tolerance that says that it is okay to silence people accused of being racist, or perhaps just because they're ugly or someone heard them say an off joke. I find it shallow and short-sighted, and in the long run, not helping anyone. We shouldn't make people think "Can I help you?" might possibly be racially loaded; instead, we should replace that kind of tribalist oppressor-oppressed worldview with individualism, just like Morgan Freeman has suggested (for example, to Mike Wallace on 60 Minutes): don't treat others based on what group they belong to, treat them as individuals.

author: gnuarm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2023, 12:34:38 am
content: Quote from: PlainName on July 02, 2023, 09:28:51 pmOk, that's a strange qualifier. It's a pointless mitigation, like saying, "kind of" or "I'm just sayin'..." An 11th grade history teacher broke me of that habit. If you have something to say, say it. Don't hem and haw around using "weasel words".QuoteI understand the English language. I simply don't follow the reasoning. There are many, many situations where traffic is not thick in any way. I don't see more dangerous behavior at all. In fact, it is in the heavy traffic when I see people making dangerous lane changes, and speeding while weaving through gaps that could close at any moment.But of course, there will be more speeding than when traffic congests roads. That's a bit of a "duh". I don't buy into the notion that driving 80 in a 65 zone makes the road noticeably more dangerous than when the traffic is heavy. I especially don't see a connection to lighter traffic causing a "lack of attention".Sorry, but I think this is poor reasoning and poor logic. How many others buy into this idea is not relevant.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2023, 07:50:13 am
content: Quote from: Nominal Animal on July 02, 2023, 10:15:21 pmThat's easier if the only other vehicles are on the horizonLess easy in London, Palermo, ...Having said that, I interrailed up to Narvik in 1980, and was very impressed by the rail carriages having carafes of water at each end, and being able to rotate the seats so you were facing forwards/backwards group of 2/4. Clearly they were transporting people, not SLF or passenger-units.QuoteBasically: yes.That should be a formal requirement for managers and human resource droids.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2023, 02:10:29 pm
content: I also took the train to Narvik in the mid 1980s.It was February, and I thought it would be cold like Minnesota, but it was only cold like Chicago (Narvik is on the Gulf Stream).The carafe of water at each end of the car was needed because the water in the car's plumbing is non-potable.I completed the trip back to Copenhagen through Sweden; I obtained two certificates attesting to my travel north of the Arctic Circle.The Norwegian certificate was stamped by the stationmaster in Narvik, but the Swedish one was merely purchased at the gift shop in Kiruna.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2023, 05:50:23 pm
content: Quote from: TimFox on July 03, 2023, 02:10:29 pmBut go inland and uphill to the Hardangavidda in January: frost giants rule!As we were taught in school geography lessons: spot the 0C isotherm crossing Crimea and the Balkans east-west, then going due north for >1500 milesIf you look at the UK's latitude, and then at the polar bear range in Canada, you will notice that without the Gulf Stream polar bears would range across the whole of the UKShame the Gulf Stream will disappear, albeit not in my lifetime.QuoteThat's true inalltrains! Only on Norwegian trains have I seen the carafes of water.QuoteDitto, but I didn't bother with any bits of paper.The bus ride from Fauske to Narvik was during a glorious high pressure blocking event. I saw the offshore islands from a distance, thought "wow, they look different", decided I wanted to go there, and later discovered just how strange the Lofoten Islands really are. Still haven't been back, but have been other strange places.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2023, 06:22:28 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on July 03, 2023, 05:50:23 pmOh, not the old Gulf Stream myth again, which will never die. West coasts are always milder in winter because they're downwind of large ocean basins. Nothing to do with the Gulf Stream. The UK has had plenty of mild winters, when the North Atlantic has been colder than average and mild winters, when the ocean has been warmer than average. The difference is the weather pattern being more conducive to cold easterlies, or mild westerlies.The grain of truth is, sea surface temperatures do affect the weather patterns, but with other factors and it's very unpredictable.Quote from: Monkeh on July 02, 2023, 09:35:04 pmThe pandemic, along with the poor response to it by many governments, has reduced the quality of the health system in many countries, so perhaps more of those who have been involved in road collisions are dying now, when they would have survived before?

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2023, 06:23:40 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on July 03, 2023, 07:50:13 amActually, the ore truck traffic was quite heavy part of the way, and they did drive fast on those not-so-wide roads.Oh, and I forgot to mention that the altitude difference between Kilpisjärvi, Finland and Skibotn, Norway, is about 550 m; distance is about 50 km.The view during the descent, including the biome change, is amazing, though. I admit, me and my friends took the bus back, instead of trying to pedalthatuphill.Quote from: TimFox on July 03, 2023, 02:10:29 pmI was born well north of the Arctic Circle, around latitude 68°N, but had already moved to Helsinki by that time. The difference in road culture between Norway and Finland was notable, even though Finnish roads aren't dangerous per se, and weren't back then either.Here in Helsinki, at pedestrian crossings where there are no traffic lights, about half of the drivers assume pedestrians will stop and wait, even though the law says the opposite should happen. I live on a residential street with 30 km/h (20 MPH) speed limit, and some drivers do like to show their 'displeasure' when they have to slow down to let pedestrians cross. Luckily I look like an angry potato, so a quick evil eye tends to give them the heebie-jeebies back.I don't drive, myself, though, so my viewpoint is skewed. I must say that some cyclists here have a death wish: I've seen a cyclist take a four-lane crossing diagonally against a red light during rush hour (Haapaniemenkatu – Sörnäisten rantatie).. and a lot of pedestrians really don't perceive anything around them, their face glued to their cellphones, or just talking to someone else and not watching at all where they are going. So maybe it's cultural? I think it might be.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2023, 07:13:24 pm
content: QuoteHere in the UK the rule is that driversshouldgive way to pedestrians waiting to cross, andmustgive way to pedestrians on a crossing. There are strict meanings for 'should' and 'must', so if one is 'making progress' then a waiting pedestrian is fair game whereas one with a foot on the crossing wins. Most drivers seem to either not know the detail of the rules or just generally considerate.edit: sourceQuote from:https://www.highwaycodeuk.co.uk/rules-for-pedestrians-crossings.html

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2023, 07:21:51 pm
content: Beyond the law, I think it's a very cultural thing.In my own (limited) experience with scandinavian countries (I've been to Norway, Sweden and Finland), norwegian people appeared to be the more well-behaved when it comes to driving.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 03, 2023, 08:12:55 pm
content: Quote from: PlainName on July 03, 2023, 07:13:24 pmThe law in the UK is totally misrepresented in most peoples head. It's not actually law but it is. Most pedestrians will retort that they have right of way, they do not! What they fail to realize is that the highway code is like any other standard written like a program. If this then that. So the whole I have right of way to be in your way bullshit comes from the fact that a pedestrian has precedence over a car in the terms that if a car does come across a pedestrian that should not be there, then he does not have the right to mow the pedestrian down. Many mistake this for I have the right to do whatever i please.There have been recent changes that seem to confuse things and sound like they pander to the convenient misconceptions of idiots rather than tell the idiots to learn to read and to do just that to the high way code. If you are to cross on a straight peice of road, the last time I looked at the highway code it made clear that a pedestrian has the responsibility of ensuring that they only cross if they can get to the other side without obstructing cars. It also states that pedestrians may not, probably must not actually "be in the road for no other reason than crossing". So basically when that twat just walks out into the road sticking his fingers up at you, it is he that is in the wrong but sadly you are not in the right so hit him, and no explaining will convince the dense jerk otherwise.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2023, 08:17:36 pm
content: @tggzzz:"That's true inalltrains! Only on Norwegian trains have I seen the carafes of water."Answer: passenger trains in the US have potable water plumbing.https://www.epa.gov/dc/epa-amtrak-agreement-helps-ensure-drinking-water-safety-trains

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2023, 08:20:50 pm
content: Here in Finland, the law states that if the pedestrian is on the pedestrian crossing or is ready to cross at one, the motorist has to let them cross unimpeded.Merging back to the original topic, how does anyone tell that better/tolerant culture yields better results (compare road culture wrt traffic accidents and deaths), to large companies?It is interesting to me how the negative developments I saw in academia have now reached even large multinational companies, which risk more than ever by letting ideologically programmed people at the Cxx level.I mean, in a politically charged environment with a near even split, it is obvious that being apolitical and walking the centerline makes the most business sense, because any deviation will only reduce your customer base. Switching from one to the other (Like Bud Light) makes no business sense at all; and remotely disabling home appliances because of an accusation, when the company is trying to push home automation and "smart" home appliances, seems absolutely counter to business interests.In many Western countries, there are laws that require publicly traded companies' officers to put owners' financial interest in front of personal interests, with the ability of the owners to sue the officers for damages etc. if they fail to do so. Apparently, because the owners are now large companies themselves with their Cxx-level officers having the same ideologically loaded university education and background, this does not seem to be a concern anymore.Note: My point stands regardless of whether one agrees the ideas pushed are good or not.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 03, 2023, 08:31:35 pm
content: Quote from: Nominal Animal on July 03, 2023, 08:20:50 pmAt designated crossings yes. For example pedestrian or pelican crossings. However the pedestrian must ensure the vehicle stops, they can't just launch onto it. I had a guy walking down the street pushing a buggy just swivel the buggy sideways with no warning an without looking behind him which is where the traffic (me) was coming from onto a zebra crossing, you can't do this. I watched when the "lollipop lady" was out helping kids across the road, the children are supposed to wait until she walks out into the road, the cars know this. I assume that the general idea is that the children cross in batches of sensible sizes regulated by the lollipop lady so that cars are not at a standstill and she ensures children cross the road properly. I saw her go running after a stupid kid that decided he should not have to play by the rules forcing a car to stop sharply, that stupid cow went running out after him vindicating his rule breaking. When i was a child crossing that very same crossing we had a different lollipop lady, her name was carol, she even came to the school to talk about how it all worked, you simply did not disobey carol and if she was on duty that kid would have got an earful, she certainly would have not gone dashing out after him like a pathetic groveling slave, all she did was help him create a personality that will one day get him killed or injured and no doubt the driver will get the blame.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2023, 08:39:03 pm
content: Quote from: Nominal AnimalI'm not sure that's so. You may reduce your potential customer base, but you might harden the smaller set of customer's loyalty. Look at, for instance, Trump - minority followers but guaranteed to follow no matter what. From a company PoV in that situation, you wouldn't have to worry about churn, for instance.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2023, 09:02:38 pm
content: Quote from: Zero999 on July 03, 2023, 06:22:28 pmThat could be. Does this pan out with other emergency medical care statistics?

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2023, 09:08:52 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on July 03, 2023, 08:12:55 pmActually no one has right of way, just priority.The recent changes to the highway code are outlined here:https://www.rac.co.uk/drive/advice/legal/new-highway-code-rules-what-you-need-to-know/

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2023, 09:12:00 pm
content: Quote from: PlainName on July 03, 2023, 08:39:03 pmRecently, Anheuser-Busch (now part of AB InBev) shot itself in the foot by ignoring "bar rules": don't discuss politics or religion.After a transgender influencer promoted Bud Light beer on Instagram, conservatives called for a boycott.Thereafter, when they thought the beer company was not defending the beer properly, the LGBTQ+ community decided to boycott it in turn, to own the conservatives.The net result is a huge decrease in sales of what was the most popular single beer in the US, being replaced by another light beer from the Mexican company Modelo, also owned by AB InBev (not mentioned in the article cited below).https://www.theguardian.com/business/2023/jun/14/bud-light-loses-top-us-beer-spot-after-promotion-with-transgender-influencer

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2023, 09:19:30 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on July 03, 2023, 09:02:38 pmIt does appear to be the case in the UK, although the NHS has being deteriorating for years. I don't know about the US.https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cbp-7281/

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2023, 11:02:26 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on July 03, 2023, 08:31:35 pmMy point was that about half the drivers here in Helsinki assume that if the pedestrian sees a car say 30m away, the pedestrian will wait because it would be inconvenient for the motorist to stop and give way, even if the speed limit was just 30 km/h. I can tell from the aggressive revving and speeding (over the speed limit) afterwards.Quote from: PlainName on July 03, 2023, 08:39:03 pmOr you might alienate your existing customer base and lose billions in market valuation and a quarter of your sales. You do not do that because you think it would make the brand better, you should only do that when you believe it is in the interests of the shareholders.Of course there are niches where a political profile is a marketing tactic. They are a risky business, because if the political wind changes, your entire brand may lose its value. It isveryexpensive to rebrand.Exactly why companies like Gillette and Anhauser Busch let their executives play with their personal ideologies using shareholder money, even when it costs the shareholders billions, is the strange thing here. Laws in many (most? western) countries say the shareholders can sue such executives, and successfully have in the past. Why is this political-ideological games wasting shareholder money became suddenly acceptable? IsBlackRockusing institutional money to fund its executives/founders ideological and political goals?

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2023, 11:49:53 pm
content: Quote from: TimFox on July 03, 2023, 08:17:36 pmTrains in the US? I thought the car companies bought the tracks in the 1930s.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2023, 01:27:19 am
content: Quote from: gnuarm on July 02, 2023, 05:38:07 pmPolice officers stopped or greatly reduced traffic stops during this time, both because of Covid-19 and for other reasons related to the current situation in France.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2023, 02:49:28 am
content: Quote from: tggzzz on July 03, 2023, 11:49:53 pmThat story relates to the downfall of light rail (Pacific Electric) in California.The railroads in the US are owned by the freight companies, and most of the track is owned by four American corporations and two Canadian corporations.

author: Stray Electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2023, 03:25:57 am
content: Quote from: gnuarm on July 02, 2023, 06:32:35 pmI don't know where you're located but I'm 2 miles from a major US university with over 60,000 students (plus staff) and one of the earlier posters is right, when Covid happened, and most people quit driving, the roads around here becamerace tracksfor the 20 somethings and there were some horrific high speed accidents. Traffic has picked up here since then but the police don't seemed to have returned to patrolling the roads ANYWHERE that I've been in the last couple of years and after 2+ years of OWNING the roads, the speeders and the reckless drivers are more bold than ever. Now I'm seeing a lot of cars and motorcycles that don't even have tags, and clearly are not street legal, driving and racing openly on the streets. As much as I hate to say it, we need the police back on the road and handing out alotof tickets.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2023, 03:36:32 am
content: "Street racing" has been on the rise over here as well.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2023, 10:18:31 am
content: Quote from: TimFox on July 03, 2023, 09:12:00 pmYeah, I think if you're going to do that kind of thing you gotta go in full-on. Any sense that you might be faking or wobbling and it's curtains.

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2023, 10:33:30 am
content: Quote from: PlainName on July 04, 2023, 10:18:31 amExactly, shunned by both sides of the divide. Very risky for the shareholders, if you already have a good market share on both sides of the divide, like Bud Light had.Reflecting this, Amazon's actions seem counterproductive to me. Their actions alienate customers who hadn't thought about the corporate control over their home automation before, and those who are scared of being called racist. They only cater to the tiny vocal minority, who have taken it to be their purpose in life to be offended on behalf of others.Or perhaps I am underestimating the shortsightedness of Amazon's customers?

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2023, 11:51:05 am
content: Quote from: Nominal Animal on July 04, 2023, 10:33:30 amI'm reminded of the old aphorism: "nobody went broke underestimating the taste of the American public". s/taste/stupidity/ or s/taste/shortsightness/ or s/taste/ignorance/ etc.

author: Haenk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2023, 12:03:41 pm
content: Quote from: Nominal Animal on July 04, 2023, 10:33:30 amThat's not unique to Amazon's customers, but the sheer number is frightening. Plus the "completely out of control" management of support issues (we are also a seller and a vendor on Amazon - so we have a pretty broad insight into their actings) has all the red warning lights on to not leave them with absolute control over your life and belongings.

author: VK3DRB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2023, 01:27:31 pm
content: I was getting a haircut by a local woman from China. She began a racist rant about about black people in China, and she said all black people there and here cause trouble. I am white Anglo-Saxon, and I quietly commented as she was ranting, "I have son-in-law who is black". She very quickly was lost for words and shut her mouth. And I didn't end up with an inverted Mohawk haircut.Also recently an acquaintance at a dinner party started a rant about people not speaking English in Australia. I quickly headed it off at the pass by letting her know English is NOT the official language of Australia. In fact, Australia is one of the few countries that does not have an official language. Very few Aussies even know that basic fact. That shut her up.Seriously, there no room for racism anywhere, because we are of one race... the human race. To remain silent when there is a racist attack by a business or individual, means we are not much better than the racists.

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2023, 02:07:28 pm
content: Quote from: VK3DRB on July 04, 2023, 01:27:31 pmSo, do you intend to get her business license revoked, then? Perhaps even deported?I believe actual racists are best dealt with words myself, especially because nobody seems to agree to what "racism" actually is.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2023, 04:41:16 pm
content: Quote from: VK3DRB on July 04, 2023, 01:27:31 pmI don't see anything racist about that. It's perfectly reasonable for anyone who settling in a new country to learn the most commonly spoken language there, irrespective or it being the official one, or not. If I were planning to move to a new country, I'd do my very best to learn the local language and respect the local customs and culture. I wouldn't want to be a disrespectful foreigner.

author: gnuarm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2023, 08:37:58 pm
content: Quote from: VK3DRB on July 04, 2023, 01:27:31 pmThat's like in the US, where people talk about the "immigrant" problem and how they should all go "home". I ask where their family is from, which usually gets the name of some city in the US. I push a bit, until they realize what I'm really asking. That usually shuts them up... for a while. After all, the Europeans stole the US from the natives, fair and square!

author: gnuarm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2023, 08:43:50 pm
content: Quote from: Zero999 on July 04, 2023, 04:41:16 pmI don't know about other countries, but historically in the US, immigrants were pushed into their own communities and encouraged to remain isolated. A 96 year old friend talks about how around New York each group had their own neighborhood. They were not hostile to one another, but kept at arms length. Each community had something to offer and everyone accepted the others were there to stay. But they remained separate. Many who entered the US had no intention of "assimilating" and never learned the language. They held onto their traditions and language, allowing the next generation to assimilate if they chose.I can't see anything wrong with that.

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2023, 09:05:37 pm
content: Quote from: gnuarm on July 04, 2023, 08:37:58 pmRelated discussion here in Finland is ...divisive. We have severe problems with how immigration rules are implemented, but discussing how to deal with it is impossible: the first term thrown is always "racist", the second "far right". I mean, ideas like making deportation mandatory for non-citizens who have received jail sentences for crimes they committed in Finland, is completely out; something out of Third Reich or worse.I do not claim to know any answers to such problems; but my problem is such discussion is utterly impossible here (and has been for years now), because the idea of there being anything to discuss about immigration, is itself labeled "racist" and "far right". Usually, when problems are just hidden or taboo, they tend to fester, instead of going away.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2023, 09:06:17 pm
content: "First generation" immigrants, often with limited English, did keep together."Second generation" and thereafter learned the language and tended to assimilate.My grandmother, a daughter of immigrants, remembered being punished in elementary school if caught speaking Norwegian on the rural schoolyard.My grandparents and mother would speak Norwegian to each other when the children were not supposed to hear.In Chicago, as time progressed, the ethnic Catholic churches evolved with the settlement pattern: the Deutsche Katholische St. Paulus Kirche on the near south side is now called la Iglesia Catolica de San Pablo.(That neighborhood is still called Pilsen, after the original Bohemian immigrants, but is now a center of the Mexican community in Chicago.)

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2023, 09:25:04 pm
content: Quote from: gnuarm on July 04, 2023, 08:43:50 pmThat's quite common with humans in general. People want to live next to others with a common language and culture. In the UK there are enclaves of immigrant populations who don't mix much with the natives. The Brits do the same thing in other countries, for example there's an area on the Costa Del Sol where most people are British, who don't speak much SpanishQuote from: gnuarm on July 04, 2023, 08:37:58 pmAgain, that's human nature. People who look different, have a different culture and customs, often get treated with suspicion. Conquest been part of humanity across the world: the Native Americans were stealing land from one another, long before the Europeans went there and were better at it.

author: gnuarm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2023, 09:30:52 pm
content: Quote from: Zero999 on July 04, 2023, 09:25:04 pmWhich is exactly the point, while few actually understand it. They simply see that they are the most recent land thieves.