Photodiode array cost - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: RoscoeP
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: June 16, 2022, 02:45:20 am
content: Hi all,Looking at getting a custom monolithic p-i-n photodiode array produced. Does anyone know ballpark NRE costs for this?I don't want to waste a company's time going through specs only to find out my budget is completely unreasonable.It would be a fairly simple linear array with 10 elements around 1 x 0.5mm each, common cathode, PDIP package.Any advice much appreciated!

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2022, 03:46:00 am
content: I think the lab equipment required depending on technique is 5-30 million or so for a infrared device prototype in a place that's like 'relatable' to industry (not a mad scientist in a barn using whatever means necessary, aka standard/easy)I would not expect a low price for labor because its optics and that always gets hikedLike do you have a basic idea for what it should be, or do you need ALL semiconductor/IC aspects designed? If you just need a technician to run your 'blueprints' and maybe adjust a few parameters for the machines thats one thing (i.e. you are like a pHd in optics that needs a chip made that you designed), if you want someone to give you a device with a data sheet that you just wanna use like a black box, that's gonna be another game.And then do you need your device like mapped, tested, etc? (i.e. commercial shit related to defects etc)like if you just want a barely tested bare die that you designed and are gonna bond and package yourself, you might get out 'alive', but if its the other thing, I think you will need some big money

author: Kleinstein
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2022, 08:01:15 am
content: A first point would be to look for what is already commercially avaiable. Usually one has some room to adapt the optics a little and a few extra elements may be an option if a standard part.Chances are the specs of the custon diode array would be similar to comparable stock parts - so you may have to look at the specs anyway.In principle the extra costs would not have to be very high, as the photodiode would not need a high resolution mask. It is more a thing of an old process, but with a high purity substrate. At the university I remember cost for a mask "set" (likely 2 masks) of some $300 for experimental chips ( in this case coarse dimensions MEMS, but this should not make a big difference).The mask design should not be complicated - more like scale / adapt a genral design.How much the companies actually charge is a business question and to tell. This may also vary quite a bit between companies - so you likely have to just ask for a quote to get an idea.

author: daqq
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2022, 08:09:07 am
content: For a weird sensor I've seen standard photodiode dies precisely positioned onto a substrate and then wirebonded. Wouldn't that be an alternative?Or something commercial like this?https://www.hamamatsu.com/content/dam/hamamatsu-photonics/sites/documents/99_SALES_LIBRARY/ssd/s8558_kmpd1062e.pdf

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2022, 09:49:36 am
content: Quote from: daqq on June 16, 2022, 08:09:07 amIf someone is asking about custom parts on an open forum, its usually a sign they don't meet the usual prerequisites of:needing a volume large enough to have contacts with suppliersorhave access to research labs to assemble/build something close enoughOP, go back to the drawing board with available off the shelf parts, then come back and explain why existing options won't work.

author: RoscoeP
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: June 17, 2022, 01:05:13 am
content: OK thanks to you all, some good info there, was honestly not expecting anyone to reply!@coppercone2 it's more a datasheet level spec related to wavelength, sensitivity, bandwidth etc etc. Relative to capital equipment costs I reckon you've given me some idea of what to expect, thanks.@kleinstein I didn't expect mask costs to be that low, sounds like doing multiple prototype-test cycles wouldn't be a deal breaker.@daqq @someone Yes I've seen some suitable die-only photodiodes I can use to hand place and assemble prototypes initially, cheers daqq for the Hamamatsu part example but I can never quite find exactly what I need.I get the feeling the NRE and iteration costs are going to be similar to a fairly complex and sizeable injection mold tool but we'll see.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 17, 2022, 01:26:01 am
content: the cost I gave you is for like a single prototype lab, I don't know what happens to that cost when you need equipment for an assembly line. I just think that number I posed should make the worker using the stuff there feel 'modern' and 'relevant' and not outdated when it comes to the hardware.You know you need alot to get confidence data right? Like evaluating a custom package for reliability and whatnot. But I never saw the business side of optics. I get the feeling that they charge more just because it says 'optics'.And also, I do wonder if a bigger manufacturer would be interested in 'helping' if you can prove that you would provide volume for manufacturing to keep assembly lines running at capacity and stuff.. if you can figure out how to do the business aspect of that. Maybe its a pipe dream but people might be interested in having early control of a developing market. I don't think EVERY project goes through the same path... the only danger is 'signing away your soul' to some kind of poor agreement. I think the 'landscape' is changing because of the recent market changes. The big people always know something but you might not know how much their knowledge is worth and how much it can help you.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 17, 2022, 02:05:18 am
content: Quote from: RoscoeP on June 17, 2022, 01:05:13 amYou're likelyoff by multiple orders of magnitude. Injection molding is routinely to customer specification/design (and done in a single house/factory in basically one step, commodity materials with wide choices), encapsulated eletro-optic widget rarely customer designed (and spread across several facilities with narrow supply chains).

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 17, 2022, 02:52:51 am
content: I heard of cheap prototype digital IC's but never about optics onesA diode is one of the simpler electronics structures too, it might not be hopeless

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 17, 2022, 03:12:11 am
content: Quote from: coppercone2 on June 17, 2022, 02:52:51 amAll the "cheap" routes rely on you accepting whatever packaging (or none) is default for that service:https://europractice-ic.com/services/packaging/asic-packaging/There are many places who can do electro-optic package assembly:https://www.schott.com/en-us/products/microelectronic-packaging-p1000286Even when buying from a "brand name" supplier, the assembly is often subcontracted out invisibly. The silicon (particulalry if off-the-shelf) is likely the smallest cost of such designs.original comment stands, the OP has not motivated the need for a custom design. Dreaming is fun, but cost realities are another.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 17, 2022, 03:34:06 am
content: wire bonding and glue might be something a research team can do, but that would just be for characterization of the die