Soldering iron question (based on my American Beauty restoration) - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: pcm81
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 11, 2023, 02:04:50 am
content: I am in the process of restoring a 550W american beauty soldering iron i picked up on ebay. It is a big boy; 1.125" chisel tip.While restoring it and playing with it i thought; how cool it would be to have this much power with a smaller tip as well as it being temperature controlled. Think large gage wire and connector soldering instead of using a torch.So, this thread is going to have 2 parts in it:1. Why do i not see any commercially made high power soldering irons that are temperature controlled? I am probably going to build a temperature controller for this American beauty 3198 soldering iron. Just need a $40 controller from Amazon and some time to wire up the thermocouple and AC relay into a nice box. What scares me is that this seems like a trivial $50 project, yet i have not seen any commercial irons that are this high power and are temperature controlled.... Am i missing something? Even the temperature controlled stand that American Beauty makes for their irons only goes up to 300W and only controls the iron while it is on the stand...2. I am planning on making a custom hot end, basically a 3/8" chisel tip hot end inserted at 90 degrees into a 1.125" hot end, to give me a 3/8" chisel tip with 550W of power behind it. I realize there will be a temperature drop due to smaller diameter of 3/8" rod, but since the 1.125" iron naturally runs at about 1000*F i don't see it being a huge problem.I just recently got a Weller 650 soldering gun and given its weight i am thinking the American Beauty 3198 with 3/8" 90 degree tip will actually be slightly lighter and moar powa.With modern day fast acting electronics i would thing making a 200W, 300W and higher power temperature controlled soldering irons should be trivial, but i don't see any...

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 11, 2023, 02:19:18 am
content: there is a french company that makes a controlled big iron, but I am not gonna look for it any time soon

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 11, 2023, 02:21:00 am
content: I liked, but no more for nowhttps://www.ftm-technologies.com/produit/300w-heavy-duty-soldering-station/?lang=en

author: pcm81
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 11, 2023, 02:38:38 am
content: Thanks,I did also find this:https://www.monotaro.my/g/1003486564.htmlbut at $2300 this is kind of ridiculous, since temperature controller can be bought on Amazon for $41: Inkbird PID Temperature Controller Kit, High Voltage 100ACV to 240ACV, Comes with SSR 40DA Solid State Relay, K Type Thermocouple, and White Heat Sink

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 11, 2023, 02:39:14 am
content: thats not alot because its meant for connectors that cost like 50-100$ each in a factoryeven those heavy gauge lugs from burndy are not cheap, and thats the most simple onei.e.https://www.amazon.com/BURNDY-YA2C2TC38-2Hole-Barrel-NoPeep/dp/B074MH6MPCif you make boat parts or something... 2000$ is nothingcompare to 0W crimp tool that does 28AWG wire for 800$

author: pcm81
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 11, 2023, 02:49:09 am
content: I work in aerospace industry and am familiar with connectors that cost up to $500 each, and crimping tools price of which still makes me roll my eyes after 15 years in the business, but that does not change the fact that a $300 soldering iron is still just an AC powered resistor and can be controlled by a $40 programmable relay.Edit:here is a cheap chinese crap for $100 EXSO High Temp Heavy Duty Soldering iron for big ground connection, earth wire and steel plate, 500W 110V Adjustable Temperature Welding tool.But since it does not even have a ground connection i would not trust it.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 11, 2023, 02:59:12 am
content: To me it makes sense, the business guy sees 'the tool can assemble something that is worth 500$ with ease. By this logic, if molex charges 500$ for a tool that does a $0.5 crimp, a commonly accepted cost of doing business, and they only had to get a mechanical engineer to design it, it means that if we charge between X and 1000 times the cost of the average connector, we can be in the same ball park as every other connector tool supplier, and we had to have a mechanical AND a electrical engineer work on this project, and it has to plug into the outlet and use electrons! this means the customer is getting a great deal!'.I am not saying that it would not be fair or unethical to beat down the price by offering a nice controller... their logic is 'the customer should be glad that we even exist, someone can attempt it without doing thermal R&D'and in the end its like 'I broke down and bought it so I can get my money producing machine operating, i am making a killing anyway, screw thinking, golf time!' (factory)Am I torn up that some french shop is able to make money off the yacht industry or something? not really... I bet that french soldering iron assembles plumbing for luxury craft.The people that use that can't use your idea anyway, someone will yell at them for making the place look cheap on tours. Its like 'well, how come there are TWO manufacturers involved in that process....??!!?!! we are not willing to use rupe goldberg tools to assemble our riches' The boss is gonna get scared someone is gonna ask him to build the controller into the handle via a custom engineering order or something if they see 'cobbling'. Just my hunch though

author: pcm81
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 11, 2023, 03:26:24 am
content: A youtuber can explain how to build it in 50 minutes and the parts cost 50 bucks to add a temperature control to just about any dumb soldering iron.I think i am just going to build it and see how it goes. Just surprised that with technology this easily accessible no one has flooded the market yet with a commercially made product. Or that American Beauty manufacturer still exists as if it is 1950s.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 11, 2023, 03:43:00 am
content: I think it would cause confusion between manufacturers and suppliers of parts that is too complicated instead of 'we recommend AB 300W' to install this flange in sheet metal gauges x-yBut I think it will get cheaper if they start using heavy weight copper PCB for electric cars in the future. And like repairs of stuff like that. It will take a while. But advanced power electronics should make the demand for that tool increase.I think its just supppper esoteric because to get that soldering iron, first you need to get a torch and fail a few times before you break down and decide to use a corded tool vs portable gas tank thingLike I join brass tubing sometimes for whatever. I have some fancy iron that can do that kind of stuff (like resistance), but the fact is, if I can grab the 2oz plastic mini-torch and make the joint, going for the iron is pointless. The flame is faster, lighter, safer (no electricity, small fire risk)I imagine 90% of the solder joints made have zero concern for non-flame applications. And even then, unless its like a PCB, people will tend to use thermal heat sinking compound to protect areas from flame (tub cost 20$ in the welding store for 2lb, you just slap it on, like wet paper mache).When someone has to fix the 10 year old EV power board rivet thing on a 20oz copper PCB as a side job in the body shop one day, that regulated high power iron will be popular.if I mention some of this stuff IRL, their like WUT?! r u working on a utility transformer?!The roofing guy does not want to put a electric extension cord on a roof being built with potentially sharp copper either. 'we lost another man because of that damn gutter'. Sheet metal + power cords = desire for battery or gas. And that 300W tool is most useful for sheet metal.And I suspect in the industry the law is "use the biggest one you think you can hold for as long as the job takes", I doubt they care about the maximum temperature. its still better then a torch, when they actually do it

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 11, 2023, 03:58:54 am
content: I am not even sure about PCB applications for this kind of stuff. I see a few that are interesting but it looks like you need to get very heavy weight copper boards manufactured in the first place to be required to use that regulated tool.I would love to hear more about that part of the industry. All I can think of is like 'motherboards' for electric vehicles and maybe large scale renewable projects (100kW?). And they will tend to want to use crimps too. It seems like it would be useful to repair the budget car I am envisioning being made in.... 2070

author: pcm81
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 11, 2023, 09:41:31 pm
content: I kind of disagree. IMHO more power is always better. Lets say you are working on a small pcb. A 20W iron gets solder flowing in 10 seconds (still doable) a 60W iron in say 2 seconds (ideal by today's standards) a 200W iron gets you there with just a touch (say 0.25 to 0.5 seconds) whatever is the human reaction time. So, 200W would spread less heat and have lower chance of damaging. Technically speaking, all soldering irons are like 3000W at the instant you touch it to the solder joint, but once temperature of the tip drops, so does the power of heat transfer and since thermal capacity of small tips is very small, bulk of heating occurs at soldering iron rated power. So if you could actually heat that small tip at say 200W with heater further down that may need to be 500W all meanwhile switching that heater on and off using solid state relay to keep the tip at desired, safe, temperature you can have a very safe and nice set-up even for what is today a low power jobs. If you are soldering an smd then heaters duty cycle may only be 5%, but if you move to soldering ground lug the duty cycle goes up to full 500W average.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 11, 2023, 10:48:15 pm
content: Where do you find these huge thermal mass PCBs though? I never even really saw them. Even power supplies I see (say sorensen) have bus bars clamped to the PCB with bolts.I feel like unless there is laminate that can decompose, heat control is just irrelevant so long you don't char things.Because a few months ago I made a post about these kinds of irons some where here, with the same plan to maybe contemplate a external controller on a high power iron, but I thought that I would never end up using it... I have one of those old school gas heated irons (you can aim a torch near a fire brick and rest the iron there to heat it up perodically) and it was good enough, even though I Have NO idea what the temp is, I know its not melting metal or vaporizing anything, so whatever.. at best maybe there will be less solder migration, but that is easy to basically grind off with a burr on a dremel and carefully wet sand off. If you use lead free, its not much different then any welding prep operation. If you use lead then its hazardous and there is a benefit I guess.Only thing I thought maybe is copper structure seams, like for RF, but even that... preforms + heat I can do already, and the copper is so expensive on those projects my stomach is already turning without thinking I have to buy another tool.Flashlight/LED power boards I guess, but I do those on a hot plate usually, they are simple.Are you like working with industrial drives, inverters, etc? I don't have much experience with those, maybe its more common there? Like I think its cool but that will be a blue moon when I come across actually needing it... I figure its gotta be in real expensive exotic high dollar value stuff.... but I don't know which one it would even be in, and I know for a fact buisness people are super stingy with copper weight.Like the American Beauty youtube vids, it looks to me like there is basically VERY little requirement for a maximum temperature on most of their work. They seem to control the issue by using the correct amount of solder to prevent flow, and like joint design. Most of it seems like "oh just buff it off if you get some oxidation from over heating if anyone even cares" and almost all of their examples seem to be very receptive of heat sinking protection if required via cooling putty.Do you have a example of a high density sensitive circuit board that would benefit from more then say 150W ? To me it feels like technology is just not there yet. I heard EV manufacturers are interested in boards like that though, for motor controllers... but I think its kinda R&D at this pointAnd in tons of examples, the product comes out way neater if you use preforms, induction/resistance heating, rather then using a soldering iron for transfer that leaves a ugly blob at the contact point!I do however support a 1/4 inch copper thick PCB with jumbo sized standard through hole parts on it with 3/8 inch bus bar leads (555 timer's big brother). But that is scifi

author: pcm81
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 11, 2023, 11:09:58 pm
content: Quote from: coppercone2 on May 11, 2023, 10:48:15 pmI "work" with whatever i feel like doing at home. At actual work i do the design and someone else does building (crimping, soldering etc).Recently i actually melted an XT60 connector with old rusted 60W soldering iron that was attached to my KADA solder station... Yeah it's in the trash now and new iron is attached. Point being that even 60 watts can easily be not enough if the tip is less than perfect. The XT60 wets well with 300W weller 650 iron, but that sucker is actually pretty heavy... heavier than 550W american beauty, but heats up in 6s instead of 5m. Biggest connectors i soldered are Amass AS150 with 8AWG wire, which i use on my kweld tack welder and lipos, but i had to use butane torch to do them and would have preferred a better controlled heat source. Have not tried weller 650 on Amass AS150 but am pretty sure the American Beauty 550W would eat them for breakfast.EDIT: "... but am pretty sure the American Beauty 550W would eat them for breakfast." because of large copper tip that stored a ton of heat, not just due to 550W power.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 11, 2023, 11:21:20 pm
content: For a barrel connector, including coaxial, I think resistance heating is superior. You just won't get the barrel dirty ever, so it always fits perfect. Totally evil if you get solder on top of gold plating.

author: pcm81
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 11, 2023, 11:37:20 pm
content: Quote from: coppercone2 on May 11, 2023, 11:21:20 pmand the tool to do that costs how much and what else it can do?

author: pcm81
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 11, 2023, 11:47:22 pm
content: Another point is that my kweld does about 10KW of power and it welds real good, but was unable to weld to a very large copper rod, even with 100J pulse; just not enough energy. With large tip like in american beauty you can do about 3KW heat transfer to an ambient temperature surface (while tip is still hot) so potentially you could do lithium ion battery soldering instead of welding (yeah i'd still use my kweld for that, but for someone that does not have a kweld this would be good).

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 12, 2023, 12:05:06 am
content: I dunno if thats a good idea. Unless you mean soldering heat sinked tabs I don't even want to contemplate soldering to a actual battery terminal, I don't want to be involved in that discussionas for price, if you make some high end RF cables, the small resistance iron pays itself off after a few cables when you don't waste the center pin because it got a dot of solder on it.With a large rod I never seen a rod that is attached to something sensitive that can't take a bit of extra heat from any thermal process. Soldering stud diodes?spot welding copper is dodgy too IMO, the resistance is just too low. Resistance soldering it with some carbon works fine, but yes its a large investment cost to do that with electricity.I don't know enough to keep posting here

author: pcm81
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 12, 2023, 12:18:12 am
content: Quote from: coppercone2 on May 12, 2023, 12:05:06 amThanks for an interesting conversation, but i also feel like it got a bit deep. You are bringing up industrial applications that have some established mechanism to address them, while i am simply saying that higher power in a smaller tip iron is a good thing, especially when it is temperature controlled to prevent damage to component being soldered. Pretty much any place that you would use weller 650 a higher power soldering iron with higher thermal capacity tip would do better. Yeah most of such installs may be OK without temperature control, but could benefit from it if you are worried about wire insulation or have plastic components mounted to a chassis. Or if you are soldering to a small plate mounted on composite structure, which you are worried about overheating etc.

author: pcm81
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 12, 2023, 12:58:17 am
content: This thread did get me thinking if i actually could use my kweld as a resistance solderer. It can go down to 4V and it can dump as much as 500J in 1 pulse (never tried going above 100J for welding)

author: pcm81
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 12, 2023, 02:24:59 am
content: Thinking about it some more, my 300W Weller 650 would actually be an easy resistance soldering unit. All you have to do is remove the soldering tip, insert cable with clamp into bottom lead and a copper conductor into top lead. BAM 300W resistance solderer. or even easier, just cut the tip off the hot end and use the part being soldered to short the 2 remaining ends.