Measurement instrument with live trend/histogram similar to Agilent 34461A? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: LaurentR
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2014, 07:35:21 am
content: I was looking at Dave's review of the Agilent 34461A and really liked the live trend/histogramming capabilities, which seem really useful for first-level debugging of signal behavior issues.Is there any other instrument that provides the same type of features, but not in a $1k DMM? I actually briefly had a Fluke 289 and was disappointed by the logging/graphing capabilities, which can only be used offline, i.e. after having stopped collection. The Agilent on the other hand seems to do a great job at live updating all the graphs and histograms.This would be interesting mostly for voltage and current, so a DMM (handheld or bench) or some version of an oscilloscope could do the job. I assume a PC-based device could provide this functionality nicely (I had hopes for the Fluke 289 with the FVF adapter, but it wasn't great either - maybe the new IR3000 for mobile apps can do better). Precision is nice to graph noise, but the 6.5 digits of the Agilent seem overkill for my hobbyist applications.Laurent

author: saturation
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2014, 11:49:09 am
content: Most any DMM capable of sending data real time to a PC can log and graph data. Even the $100 Keysight 1231 DMM can do it after you buy the IR cable. The key issue is doing this freuquently and having those cables all over the place, PC boot time, etc., overall becomes very time consuming.

author: HighVoltage
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2014, 01:23:14 pm
content: You could also use the older model Agilent 34401A and combine it with the free BenchVue software to get the same logging ability.

author: LaurentR
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2014, 04:56:46 pm
content: Quote from: HighVoltage on November 18, 2014, 01:23:14 pmThanks, looks nice. Is there histograming in BenchVue? I couldn't find it.Laurent

author: HighVoltage
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2014, 06:10:36 pm
content: From the Keysight websitehttp://www.keysight.com/en/pd-2307503/digital-multimeter-dmm-connectivity-utility-softwareVisualize multiple DMM outputs at onceDisplay single measurements, charts,or histogramsfrom a single instrument or up to four DMMs simultaneously. See what’s happening on your bench, all on one display - to spot correlated trends you might otherwise miss.--------------You can also export your data and create your own histogram in Excel or other programs

author: LabSpokane
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2014, 07:21:52 pm
content: The 6.5 digits are extreme overkill for most applications...until you need to verify calibration of something. If all you need is a couple digits, just have a microcontroller read the value and pump the data into a text file on your PC and use excel to get the graph. That's essentially what I did with a 34401a in the pre-BenchView days.All that said, the display on the 34461 is so good, it's hard to go back to a dingy LCD or even VFD for bench work. The readability may seem like a silly reason to pay so much, but I'm happy I sprung for the extra dough over a used 34401.

author: Macbeth
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2014, 07:35:50 pm
content: The RIGOL DM3000 series have inbuilt histogram and history list functions.Check out Shariers Signalpath blog review hereI have a DM3058E and am happy with its 5.5 digits and lack of GBIP or LXI Ethernet (I still have RS232 and USB), compared to the DM3068 with 6.5 digits, GPIB and Ethernet.The continuity buzzer is very rapid and you can change the minimum ohms for the continuity too, but the buzzer is very weak, and isn't latched. I'm surprised the latching hasn't been fixed in a firmware update by now. I will probably fix both issues with a hardware mod.

author: toli
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2014, 07:39:54 pm
content: If you are going to use a PC to do this, even the UT61E is a good enough option. I believe UltraDMM is capable of doing this quite well with this meter. I remember using it with the UT61E in the past with no problems. I simply don't like to have a laptop next to the device just for logging. But if its there anyway, than why not use it

author: LaurentR
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2014, 07:50:09 pm
content: Thanks for the answers.I use a 87V for most needs, so this would be a second meter.In that context, a bench meter or any meter connected to a PC work equally well (i.e. they don't need to be instant-on or transportable). I just hung a screen on the wall and got a SFF PC (Intel NUC - highly recommended) that's always on, so a PC connection is not an issue.The issue with the PC connection is the quality of the software :-) FVF for the Fluke 289 wasn't that great. The various Rigol pieces of SW are also so-so. I did install a demo version of BenchVue as recommended by HighVoltage and it looked good but still can't find histogramming :-)Quote from: toli on November 18, 2014, 07:39:54 pmI'll check that one, thanks.Quote from: Macbeth on November 18, 2014, 07:35:50 pmThe Rigol was on the list (I already have a lot of their gear and I am generally happy with it - apart from the modest quality of the software), so I'll check the data portion. The continuity is not an issue, the 87V works well for that :-)

author: plesa
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2014, 10:42:29 pm
content: Quote from: LaurentR on November 18, 2014, 04:56:46 pmUse rather DMM_Connectivity_Utility_1.0.2.0.exe instead BenchVue. There is no limitation for log lenght.

author: LaurentR
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2014, 12:30:47 am
content: Quote from: plesa on November 18, 2014, 10:42:29 pmThanks! I hadn't realized that the "digital-multimeter-dmm-connectivity-utility-software" HighVoltage was pointing to was this and not BenchVue. The histogram icon you're showing is indeed missing in BenchVue.

author: TunerSandwich
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 20, 2014, 02:36:29 am
content: Fluke 289, with trend view forms is great. Rigol DM3068 is also great. If you want something fancy some LeCroy scopes will do up to 1 ks/div trending....all very useful tools. The fluke 289 is all you need for basics (really excellent at trend capture and export to FvF software). The Rigol is nice because you can trend operations....obviously the LX scope is another league, as you can use the trend operator on any other function....including a trend of a trend, or multiple trends averaged etc....just depends on how far you really need to go....you could even trend a measurement from an FFT or spectral operator and then link that back into a histogram....and on and on and on and on

author: LaurentR
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 20, 2014, 07:15:42 am
content: Quote from: TunerSandwich on November 20, 2014, 02:36:29 amThanks for the feedback. I had another look at the 289 with FVF and did manage to go a bit further and do full interactive forms, including histograms, although it's a bit clunky. Certainly powerful for offline analysis and printing of slow events, but less so for real-time. In particular, it seems that it can't add data points to the forms at >1Hz even though it claims the 289 sends data at 8Hz?Is the Rigol trend capture only on the display or is there a PC-based tool that can also do it in real time?

author: TunerSandwich
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 20, 2014, 09:04:21 pm
content: Quote from: LaurentR on November 20, 2014, 07:15:42 amThe FvF is the problem. Also the trending capture/trigger on the 289 itself is a weak link. It is not a real-time capture. It drops data, in an attempt to save memory. It's great for looking at IBV or mains fluctuations, but won't cut the mustard for much more.The DM3068 is MUCH faster AND yes you can not only export, but grab data in realtime, via LXi or the USB interface. There is software and a webserver application via LXi interface. You can also apply the math operators to the trend, and also it has the histogram capability.If you want near realtime trending though, I think the only option is going to be a front end input device with the bandwidth and memory to grab the specific ranges you want.I have also had issues with the 289 not being able to read frequencies it's data sheet claims it can read. I never looked futher into the issues, because I have other tools at my disposal, but that is a very interesting problem. Are you saying you aren't able to get deviations in line phase/harmonics from mains? I know my 289 has some issues with higher frequency signals, but i have never tried to trend any AC (I work on DC power stuff mostly....sine waves are very foreign to me).I will have a look through the 289 and FvF again and see if I have the same problems you are describing.....

author: LaurentR
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 20, 2014, 11:06:42 pm
content: Quote from: TunerSandwich on November 20, 2014, 09:04:21 pmThanks again. For my use case, I was looking the other day at a small lighting project that occasionally suffers from black out due to supply drop based on what is displayed. The frequency of events is definitely > 1Hz but not that much more (let's say 10s to 100s of Hz) and the 289 was of little help. It seems to record min/max at higher speed that 1Hz, but 1Hz is all I could plot/histogram in FVF and even then, the interactive plotting is not very good or configurable.That's almost scope territory, but looking at Dave's video on the 34461A, I believe that this kind of medium speed trend and histogramming would have been useful to do a quick run-around of the circuit to do first-level visual debugging more easily than with a scope.Visual tools are great for debugging as the brain is good at pattern matching and this seems to cover a useful range of applications between the static/nearly static measurement and the full-on scope.

author: TunerSandwich
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 21, 2014, 07:37:09 am
content: Quote from: LaurentR on November 20, 2014, 11:06:42 pmthe Rigol DM3068 is that in between tool....you can set extremely fast integration times....the operators and functions are fantastic.....I haven't personally used the Agilent 34461A. My only real complaint about the 3068 is the screen and menu system....bit clunkythe Agilent 34451A looks to be a fantastic tool, and is not much more than the Rigol. I might have to pick one of those up. The rigol trumps it as far as low resistance measurements and some advanced sensor inputs. you can more or less write user programs for the rigol....not sure how useful that is for your described purposes though....and again the Agilent display makes the rigol appear crude (at best)....the accuracy of the 3068 is by far the best, among all the DMM's I own....once it's verified, nulled and settled, I use it as my primary reference reading....100uS max integration time is very nice

author: Macbeth
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 21, 2014, 10:31:38 am
content: Going through the spec sheets, the Rigol 3058 compared to the 3068, one thing is glaringly obvious. Other than the higher resolution, extra digit, and the Trend function, why on earth does the 3058 only weigh 2.5kg, while the 3068 is 3.2kg?Does an extra digit really weigh nearly 1kg?I guess we need to see all three of these Rigols in "don't turn it on - take it apaaart!" style(But seriously, nearly 1kg? - OK if it was a linear PSU with a huge transformer chucking out loads more then maybe, but what on earth?)Having said that, live data capture is a doddle. The 3000 series even have emulation modes for Agilent 34401A or Fluke 45. The only problem is all the Agilent/Keysight software like Benchvue & DMM clearly use *IDN? to check if it's the real deal. I'm sure there must be a simple way of fooling such software by replacing the *IDN? response from Rigol DM30xx to HP/Agilent 34401A.I would have thought the Rigol engineers would have put that in the software, considering how well they did everything else to make the meter looks like a 34401A in SCPI mode. I expect some copyright thing or other put a stop to them masquerading...