Low volume industrial cable assembly - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: jacau
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2024, 12:11:31 am
content: We have an industrial application for 14metre signal and power flex cable sets with Hirschmann CA series connectors and I was looking to get these outsourced to a company that ships to Australia.I have reached out to some companies but as we are only looking at 5-10 sets, nobody has replied.Any recommendations of who might be able to assist?Thanks

author: mtwieg
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2024, 11:05:02 am
content: Finding a CM willing to do small quantity cable assemblies can be quite difficult at any price. One thing that has a big impact on how you're received is the drawing/specification you provide to them. Having a professional-looking drawing means a lot, can you share yours?Providing a real sample can also be helpful (but is not a substitute for a drawing).

author: artag
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2024, 11:11:05 am
content: You could try a manufacturer of high cost low volume wiring such as those used in motorsport. They may not be familiar with the specific connectors but will have the skills to make high quality cables without automation and will ship anywhere.The name I was thinking of was F1 Harnesses in Norfolk, UK but I can't find a website. They may have morphed intohttps://www.ascwiring.co.uk/This search got lots of hits.https://duckduckgo.com/?q=formula+1+motorsport+wiring+harness&t=brave&ia=webIf the Hirschmann connectors need special tooling you could look for a similar company in whatever product area they're most commonly used. Motorsports typically use military, autosport or Lemo connectors.

author: ftg
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2024, 11:48:08 am
content: We used these folks at one point to make some wiring harnesses.https://milcon.fi/enOur price for a handful of wiring harnesses with M12, M8, DE15 and some bare wires terminated to ferrules was around 90eur/pcs, a far cry of the 270eur official cables cost us.We later redesigned the wiring harness for even lower cost and went with a separate contract manufacturer for volume production.

author: selcuk
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2024, 12:03:26 pm
content: If you usually work with a local PCB assembly house, you can ask them to do it for yourself. Here, the situation is the same with low quantity orders. I usually ask my component dealers or assembly houses to make me a favor. They have somehow very good relationships with wiring manufacturers.

author: SMTech
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2024, 12:32:01 pm
content: Quote from: selcuk on July 16, 2024, 12:03:26 pmThis isn't a bad idea, if you're lucky your CM already has compatible crimp tooling to work with the connectors and can make a small batch, and if not there's a good chance they know a few places that might help. If you have any Electronics manufacturing industry contacts in your LinkedIn, there's a good chance your feed will include posts from several potential cable/harness companies. Lots of these seem to start out small in a garage/garden shed and grow from there. The little ones might choose be less picky about volume.Otherwise I would follow the other route, look for people who specialize in whatever field those cable types are typically used in, keeping a good library of dies&tooling to handle the huge number of crimp types out there is an expensive venture. Nobody wants to buy a tool to make 5 cables.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2024, 12:33:47 pm
content: TBH for a 1-off build of 5-10 I wouldn't even bother with the hassle of dealing with subcontractors - this can't be more than half a day's work to do it yourself.

author: ajb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2024, 02:51:53 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on July 16, 2024, 12:33:47 pmYeah. I'm not familiar with the referenced connector series, but from the brochure that google brings up, they have screw terminal terminations, so no special crimp tools or fiddly soldering required. That makes a lot of sense for an industrial cable connector, and should make them pretty easy to do yourself. Might be worth picking up a jacket stripper/slitter if you don't already have one.The hardest part may just be getting hold of suitable cable without having to buy an enormous spool of it, depending on the specific requirements.Quote from: jacau on July 16, 2024, 12:11:31 amWhat kind of cable exactly? "Signal and power" generally implies two or three larger gauge power conductors and then some lighter signal wires, possibly with some separation/shielding between the two. That could be hard to source in small quantities. If all the conductors can be the same size, you'll have a lot more options.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2024, 05:57:17 pm
content: Quote from: jacau on July 16, 2024, 12:11:31 amFor what it's worth, I second the idea of just doing them yourself. I really like these connectors and have used them in multiple projects since discovering them. In particular, if you stick to the screw terminal version, they're extremely easy to terminate. Stripping the jacket off the cable is the most difficult part of the entire process! Then just strip the wires, crimp on ferrules, and screw them in.In addition to Belden (which bought Hirschmann), Amphenol sells compatible/interchangeable connectors as theEcomate Plastic(aka Ecomate m series, and previously the C16-1 series), and Binder as theRD24 series.Note that while Belden and Amphenol only sell the 4P (3P+PE) with screw terminals (leaving the 7-pin (6P+PE) versions as solder and crimp only), Binder has both 4P and 7P in every termination style.

author: jacau
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2024, 02:47:48 am
content: Thanks everyone for the replies.Quote from: mtwieg on July 16, 2024, 11:05:02 amYeah finding that out... I did try our PCB assembly house (PCBWay) but no luck.Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on July 16, 2024, 12:33:47 pmQuote from: ajb on July 16, 2024, 02:51:53 pmYeah I have been making these cables up - and the connectors are straight forward enough to solder and crimp - but I'm having health issues that make manipulating the thicker cable and looking down for long periods very unpleasant.Quote from: ajb on July 16, 2024, 02:51:53 pmYeah 0.5mm2 6 core for signal and 2.5mm2 4 core (Electra F4025) for power. Both 24V. I was going out of connector spec for 30m runs of 4mm2 cable for a couple of situations but I wouldn't be asking that of a 3rd party or want to do that again.Quote from: tooki on July 16, 2024, 05:57:17 pmInteresting...thanks for that tooki as removing soldering from the picture widens my options.Thanks also for the links to the specialistic CMs.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2024, 03:09:11 am
content: I would do some research to see if you can get a pneumatic crimper to meet most of your needs because they really take alot of work out of crimping.For stripping you can still do it with zero 'work' by getting the correct fixture (i.e. spring of correct dimensions) and going thermal.. or ergonomic orientation of panduit clamps to fixture cable/wire for stripit might in the long run benefit you to have the hardware that gets rid of labor despite the initial costI don't think I would advise manual crimp tools for regular work at all really if you have the money. For repairs and prototyping even a young person can get beat up making cables IMO. it seems to find strange muscles you don't know you have, like climbing.... even if its relatively low force.Biggest PITA I had recently with crimping is I had to make a bunch of thermocouple spades with constantan and alumel. That shit is tough as hell in a regular solistrand crimper for ring terminals and spades. After like 20 I was in "fuck this" mode. If my budget was a bit higher I would buy the auto crimp machine and try to make it all work because it feels like a monsterous trollI think its one of those things that people under estimate the work required for it. Easy is a solder pot. It seems to kill your forearmsThe best advancement I have seen in hand crimps is from stabuli, they have a thing that gets 'pumped' like 15 times to do a heavy crimp, incramenting a wheel with a gear box and ratchet. Its really zero effort. But its also like 900$ + dies... and its not hydraulic size, so it fits in a tool box. Not much bigger then a regular small crimper (10 x 3 x2 inch). But man I would say its like type writer levels of force required to press down that lever lol

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2024, 07:12:29 am
content: Quote from: coppercone2 on July 17, 2024, 03:09:11 amI’ve used it before. Very little effort indeed.Many companies sell the same tool or ones like it. It’s actually made by Rennsteig (which is, for all intents and purposes, Knipex’s crimping tool subsidiary).https://www.rennsteig.com/en/products/detail/6340305.htmlThere are also similar hand tools (a bit bigger) using a hydraulic system. (Google “manual hydraulic crimp tool” or similar.)And of course nowadays they also sell electric versions that evoke a centaur, in that it’s the lower half of a cordless drill with the front half of a crimp tool grafted on.

author: jacau
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2024, 08:39:21 am
content: Quote from: coppercone2 on July 17, 2024, 03:09:11 amLooks like this is the way we will go considering the low volume - at least in the short term.I'll buy decent equipment to strip/desheath/crimp and couple of colleagues have generously offered to help with reel cutting and preparation.Thanks everyone for the feedback - a problem shared certainly is a problem halved.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2024, 11:19:26 am
content: yeah IDK why the crimp tool is so hard to get in pneumatic if you tried to get a sheet metal guy to use a manual nibbler they would be like WTFThat part of the industry lagged. Of course, the problem is if someone just wants to do repairs, then you need manual or small electric tools. But for prototyping places.. its like under equipped without a benchtop crimper TBHLike its kinda within the budget of even the smallest company. For the amount of BS it gets rid of , its cheap. Like lol they have a 3k expresso machine but its being crimped by archemedes with a cheater barThere is something to be said about a pneumatic stripper too. I have the most expensive of the hand tools in my toolbox but their not fool proof. Its still made of plastic and if you switch wire insulation around (like you should during prototyping) you will run into some thickness or material that does not quite work well with the tool. The problem with that one, is that damaged strands and torn insulation get covered up EXTREMELY well by the work force so people don't know whats really going on there. Dead eyed liar saying the wire is "fine' after being mangled by a 20 year old harbor freight deal. Ok, maybe its fine for the code inspector on the job site you got your training on, but its not ok on the 30 awg teflon wire in a telemetry adapter box.So basically I noticed, with the hand strippers, I can do a good job, but its way slower. You need to frequently readjust the tool with test wire. Within only 3 months I noticed none of the settings I had are working anymore. If you care enough to look at your wire under a microscope, you will desire the nice stable pneumatic stripper (one of the things I miss from a factory). Something about the momentum makes it tear off the wire insulation nice and clean without having to get too deep in the insulation. The hand tool is more likely to do damage IMO.. I get a little worried doing multi conductor cables that are fine with it. If you only got 7 strands, and its thin gauge, I can't accept a nicked strand there in something I deem reliable.... its bearly strong enough if its made perfectly... but thats a thing you run into with signals that have to be compact IMO. The little matchbox strippers are also just as problematic as the self adjusting ones if you expect it to have a long tool life. seems like a false economy in some senses.. you can get by of course, but its a bit of a painI thought I could have people do some of the labor like distribute it, but with the hand stripper, its like.. your just gonna end up nicking one of the wires unless your good because the tooling seems to drift. so i stopped trying to make that part into a team activity. With the pneumatic one you could get the desk jockys to help out if its set right

author: IconicPCB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 21, 2024, 03:02:01 am
content: Try Andrew Wood athttps://woodtech.net.au/sales-%26-purchasingBrisbane

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 21, 2024, 11:43:02 am
content: Quote from: coppercone2 on July 17, 2024, 11:19:26 amI feel like you're a bit hung up on pneumatic specifically, when the real goals are a) hand tools that are easy to use, and b) automatic tools (regardless of technology).Crimp tools vary widely, even for a specific type of contact. For example, at work I have two different Knipex hand crimpers for insulated terminals. They use identical dies. But one is the slightly cheaper, more compact handle design, the other is larger and slightly more expensive. I far prefer using the latter, because its longer handles and different lever arrangement result in it requiring significantly less hand force to operate. (And its jaw action is closer to parallel.)Or how Molex has made many, many, many different hand tools for the Mini-Fit Jr. contacts over the years, at various price points. The current "PremumGrade" ones (= the non-budget hand tools that cost around $400), with parallel-action jaws, made by Pressmaster, need far less hand force than more traditional tools.This huge range of performance is all with purely mechanical hand tools.Then there are the partly automatic hand crimping tools that use reeled contacts, eliminating the need to insert individual contacts in the tool. These tools are designed for medium volumes that are too tedious and unergonomic for the simpler tools.Then you get to benchtop crimpers that are still operated by humans (i.e. you insert the wire manually). And finally, fully-automatic machines that feed, cut, strip, and crimp the wire without human intervention.Similarly, with wire strippers there are many different types, from the cheapest manual strippers, to automatic manual strippers, to benchtop machines, to fully automatic unattended ones.At work, a different department (where I used to work) has two benchtop strippers, one using V-cut blades (good for most kinds of "ordinary" insulation and some more challenging ones), and one rotary coaxial stripper, which uses flat blades spinning at high speed. It's primarily intended for step-stripping coaxial cables (i.e. you program in the various cut depths and strip lengths, then you insert the wire, press the pedal, and it does it all in one go), but it's also great for challenging insulation like Kapton.I TOTALLY understand your frustration with people who don't "see" quality, and think crap is "fine". Especially the ones who don't see flaws even once told what to look for. I think this is why military and aerospace have such strict requirements not only on workmanship standards, but on which tooling is allowed, and how it must be maintained. It has to be made idiot-proof, especially against what I consider to be "willful idiots" who dismiss what they are taught.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 21, 2024, 01:13:28 pm
content: yeah idk the ones I like are pneumatic they really have some momentum for stripping wire and punching stuff, if you can get them its greatI think the parts are under a different 'regime' with the high speed air powered blade and grabbers / hammerstheoretically slower is better for crimping, but I think faster is better for stripping because it like tears the insulation beautifully. It does not seem to elongate the wire insulation because its so fast... but even with the crimp, there might be a benefit to that really fast point deformation, perhaps the rest of the structure that is not designed to bend, bends less and it stays geometrically better. Old papers on crimp research showed that metal held under pressure does behave a bit differently if you "hold" the crimp longer.. but proving anything there would take ALOT of money and work.That stupid little... turtle neck.... can form on wire that is stripped sometimes. I feel like I never saw it with the air strip. Like the very thin 0.5mm tall deformed pulled insulation thing. I thought that the machine is so blazing fast that even if its not set 100%, it seems to like tear that bit off, instead of letting it stretch out. It won't happen with silicone insulation but it can happen to PVC and PTFE and probobly ETFE. Its kind of like pulling whipped cream, the little "santa hat".

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 27, 2024, 09:51:49 am
content: Maybe you need to share exactly what model of pneumatic stripper you mean. (Because a whole lot of wire stripping machines, using disparate methods for doing the stripping, use compressed air for some part of the machine’s operation.)“Slower is better” may be true for crimping, but without doubt, modern crimp contacts are designed for very quick termination. In volume, crimping machines just whack down the jaws with full force. Proper contact positioners and die geometry ensure that the contact is not deformed or bent during crimping.Turtleneck: are you referring to edge flash? Refer to sections 1.01 and 1.02 of the NASA inspection standards here:https://workmanship.nasa.gov/lib/insp/2%20books/frameset.html(Sorry, there’s no way to link to a section while also maintaining the navigation pane.)Speaking of stripping, I’ve got a few PUR (polyurethane) power cables to terminate next week. What a goddamn PITA they are… I did a few this week, super annoying because the cable in question has PUR-insulated conductors as well, and those use two layers, one of softer PUR, and a thin layer of harder PUR in direct contact with the copper. None of my wire strippers can reliably strip the conductors, they mostly remove the soft PUR but leave the thin layer of hard PUR, which adheres quite tightly. :/In contrast, yesterday I had to make an RG-196* BNC cable using the automatic rotary coax stripping machine at the other department at work. What a glorious doodad: after programming the strip depths and lengths, you insert the cable, press the pedal, and a few seconds later the cable is perfectly stripped with sub-mm accuracy, with jacket, shield braid, and dielectric all cut back to precise dimensions for the plug.*RG-196 is essentially a variant of RG-178 with a PTFE jacket instead of FEP.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 27, 2024, 03:42:15 pm
content: Yeah Edge flash. I don't know the name of the machine it was a while ago, but it had a micrometer adjustment for the blade and basically a little pressure switch that when you poked a lever with the wire it would actuate the stripping mechanism, and it just ran on a air hose at some modest pressure (50psi +)that is a really nice website compared to the PDF versionsprice around $5kEdge flash is absolutely annoying and if you get a very thin one, it can get into the crimp and probobly wreck havok. Even now for lab cables I write in my procedures that you need to do a 360 degree inspection after trimming to wire to verify the insulation is cut OK.. and with the hand tools and general process quality I see now, I would be generally disappointed if someone followed my procedures and did not inspect the stripping. I think the high end hand tools are pretty good at not nicking the wires, but they can do edge flash. So people are like "oh it wont nick with this" but they don't think if you will get a curl of insulation into the crimp area!And usually we get some one that is good at wire nuts and IDC type crimps, so they have zero concern for insulation, since those processes will shred/ignore it.... so you really need to be careful with wording and expectations of quality.The other problem is that people seem to watch to reach for a exacto to clean it off. I think the only good way is to use very flush cutters . I don't wanna see knives near the insulation of fine cable.For PUR, I don't know. I imagine its very gummy. For coaxial cable insulation, especially fep film, the machine is basically essential if you don't want to clown around. I have RG405? FEP insulated cables and the best tool I found for that is the cheap coaxial stripper, the one piece with a plastic flex hinge with a razor blade embedded in the plastic. Expect to ruin a few feet by nicking the braid before you find the exact position that it works. I would be embarrassed to show this 'method' at work, its basically guess work. Its thin and the cable is never strait. I think the cable stripper machine pulls it a bit so its taught and then it can cut, but if you do it by hand... your basically always cutting on a elbow piece.. Thermal would be the only budget way to get at this cable 'professionally' without looking like your widdling sculptures on the front porch of the cabin in the rocking chair with a double barrel and a xxx jug.and to add insult to your injury, I suspect PUR insulation would make a lumpy mess if you try to thermal strip it lol