EEVblog #280 - Talking Electronics - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Spawn
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 17, 2012, 11:41:24 pm
content: Don’t forget to visit Colin Mitchell’s webpage:www.talkingelectronics.comHe has really nice old school projects and a lot information for everyone in to electronics. Put it in to your bookmarks, believe me you will need it one day.Follow this link for a play list with all 5 partsor watch them below one by one.1. Talking Electronics - History2. Talking Electronics - America3. Talking Electronics - FM Bug Kits4. Talking Electronics - The Internet And Learning5. Talking Electronics - Old HardwareHow wonderful Dave, I think we are around same age and begin eighties till end eighties the kits where so popular and all my pocket money went in to those, I was visiting our local electronics shop at least twice a week to see if something new was there, the young seller from back than is running the shop now he took it over from the previous owner and whenever I visit him we talk a lot about old days, just like in this video.Magazines where for some reason a lot better than now days, I am not sure if it is a fact or my feeling about old days.I really enjoyed watching this episode and from bottom of my heart I thank you for posting this one.EDIT: All video's added.

author: Bored@Work
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 18, 2012, 12:14:39 am
content: Quote from: Spawn on May 17, 2012, 11:41:24 pmYes, even Elektor was palatable in those days, while today ... Although Elektor was always ripping off people for the PCBs. They did print some PCB layouts in the magazine, but I don't remember if they ever told people how to turn a layout from the magazine into a PCB. But of course they told you how to order the PCB for lots of $$$.One thing I fear is that all the piracy on the Internet will finally make publishing books and magazines so unattractive that we will face a shortage of good new books and new magazines in the future. Interestingly Colin was claiming one doesn't need books any more, because "everything" is on the Internet. Well, first, not everything is on the Internet. Second, what is there didn't just magically appear. It is either there because people learned it from some books and then put it there or because of piracy. Third, what is there is often wrong. Forth, especially wrong stuff seems to be copied on the Internet ad infinitum and getting a life of its own. Maybe because the stuff got wrong by oversimplification and now sounds so simple that everyone copies it.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 18, 2012, 12:21:02 am
content: Quote from: Spawn on May 17, 2012, 11:41:24 pmThey felt a lot better because that's one of the few information sources you had before the Internet came along.We just take it for granted that we can Google something and find it in seconds these days.Search Digikey and get datasheets and price on a few hundred thousands chips and parts instantly etc.The worlds has changed since those days.Dave.

author: Rutger
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 18, 2012, 12:35:44 am
content: Yep, I remember the original Elektor in the Nederlands called Elektuur in the late 70's and 80's, but I have build several projects from the magazine that didn't work, so I don't think the quality was that great of the articles. Also if you had any problem who did you ask for help? I much prefer today's fast and easy access to a lot of technical information. I would not like to go back to the old ways if you paid me.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 18, 2012, 12:58:05 am
content: Quote from: BoredAtWork on May 18, 2012, 12:14:39 amNot sure about this one BAW. The advent of the printed book was seen as a sort of piracy at the time but this is only a matter of changing the medium. The information wants to be out there and will leak one way or another. Not everything is on the internet - yes, but what is not out there tends to be ignored.So we face a conundrum, not sharing leads to piracy, sharing leads to poverty, not writing leads to ignorance...As Dogbert says - The real money is on the conference circuit.

author: Spawn
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 18, 2012, 01:07:56 am
content: You are right about the media such as internet Dave, most things are one click away and it spoiled us when it comes to comparing magazines. Internet changed our lives in a good way and I think no one can deny that. Most of us hide away their printed media because they got pretty useless.But I also agree with BoredAtWork about new Elektor and their so called PCB layout in their magazines last 7 years or even more, in” good old days”you could have a real PCB layout which you could copy and make your own but now days it is just too much commercial than it was before they just post a PCB like below and comment with “The high quality ready-made board is available from ElektorPCBservice.com”And when we were at school if someone had a kit from Velleman or Kemo we all copied the PCB layout, which maybe was not fair to those companies but it was just normal thing to do in those days.Yes Rutger they had some issues in Elektuur projects and next month they published some fix for it, but I can’t remember anything that didn’t work at all, maybe I just didn’t build one with a big issue. I am not talking about going back to those days, of course not, but what I like to see is when I buy a magazine I want the whole thing not some picture of a PCB and a comment to get it from their PCB shop, that was the whole idea to get such a magazine in first place when they got published those days.

author: pickle9000
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 18, 2012, 01:40:55 am
content: If there was an 8x10 pcb with as many projects as you could fit on it, would you buy the magazine for 35 bucks. Would you pay the 35 bucks to get the board sent to you and download the magazine (no paper)?Remember Electronics Today Circuit File?I think that if for example you had a beginners issue with pulsers, logic probe, headphone amp, simple variable power supply and so on you would have a winner. Another issue for people interested in micros and so on. You can fit a great deal on a board that size. It would be great value.Even with what I see on this board you could fill up a pcb that size in no time. If Dave sold an 8x10 board with the eevblog forum greatest free hits, would you buy it, and how much would you pay? No instructions, no support, you'd have to do that yourself....mike

author: Spawn
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 18, 2012, 01:58:32 am
content: Quote from: pickle9000 on May 18, 2012, 01:40:55 amWell Mike, I don’t want to rain in your parade but you can forget about that part, indeed internet is great but it has also down side, like making “kids” now days lazy, there will be always someone asking stuff which is already explained even if it is just two topics below their own topics.For example: Buying a scope and asking here how to operate it without reading anything in the manual. In my opinion someone with that attitude does not earn the privilege to have oscilloscope, but yeah I am old fashion when it comes this kind a things

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 18, 2012, 03:41:14 am
content: Quote from: Spawn on May 18, 2012, 01:58:32 amAt least the "lazy" kids stand a better chance of staying in the game now!"Lazy" kids pre-internet would have never taken up any form of electronics at all.Dave.

author: bullet308
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 18, 2012, 05:02:07 am
content: The near-universal availability of information is no substitute for having the intellect to make use of it. I tutor in a college computer lab for part of my living, and I cannot count the number of times in a day that I have to say, "open a browser and use Google". Are you stuck on using the syntax of some obscure MS Excel formula? PLUG IT INTO GOOGLE! Its not like you are the first person to ever have this problem! The student: "Oh, really?"But I hate the word "lazy". Its a sloppy, stigmatizing way of saying 'unmotivated" that is often-times not deserved.The really lazy ones are the folks in education that cannot figure out that the entire paradigm has shifted away from how-much-crap-can-you-pack-into-your-skull to how-can-you-best-utilize-that-crap-that-is-OUTSIDE-of-your-skull. Beyond a certain point, having "facts" crammed into your brain is not very useful as compared to being able to know how to select, find and process information that is stored someplace like the Wikipedia, or the EEVBlog, for that matter.

author: T4P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 18, 2012, 07:08:38 am
content: The best collection of information online is all at EEVBlog ... really.Actually, i have been recommending my (course) mates and lecturers to come over the EEVBlog forums and the Dave's EEVBlog tubeOH sure i forgot something, lecturers are the ones who won't agree to this and won't agree to that

author: Bored@Work
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 18, 2012, 08:02:21 am
content: Quote from: HAL-42b on May 18, 2012, 12:58:05 amThe question is how do you motivate the good, or even brilliant people, to structure, codify and release their knowledge? It takes many years to acquire deep knowledge in some subject, then it takes more years to write a good, comprehensive textbook. It takes talent. If we reach the point that those with the talent and the knowledge no longer want to write books, we have a big problem. Then we have managed to cut off our own air supply, the source that feeds the Internet.I do not buy into this "information wants to be free" thing. Simple information wants to be free, because there are enough doofus who copy it piecemeal, and add their own pointless spin to it. But complex information needs to be dragged out, it refuses to come out on its own.Did you notice that a lot of electronics articles on the Internet stop at the point where it starts to get difficult? Did you notice that web pages tend to be short, so neither the author or the readers with a short attention span are overwhelmed?This piecemeal, simple stuff only, collection of information on the great garbage dump called the Internet is a real problem. It fosters simple how-to style "solutions", often try-and-error style - if you have exactly symptom X, try solution A, B, and C, in that order. That does not foster understanding the subject sufficiently to make your own conclusions. And it does not foster creativity. E.g. I find the Arduino "artist" movement one of the most uncreative movements in electronics. Everything dumbed down, everything served piecemeal, everything just following pre-made recipes, everything just copying and endless iterations of the same few things. No real teaching of understanding. And the target audience doesn't want to understand.Quote from: bullet308 on May 18, 2012, 05:02:07 amSo you subscribe to the school of thought that one is not supposed to tell stupid people they are stupid, or lazy people they are lazy? And that they will all become mass murders if you tell them the truth? And that it is perfectly OK they feel entitled to everything without the need to put anything of their own in? And that it is OK to be lazy, because some eduction clown didn't sufficiently motivate / amuse / entertain to become active and learn?QuotePlease explain how "that crap that is OUTSIDE", i.e. stuff on the Internet, is supposed happen to end up on the Internet? How it is supposed to be enhanced, get better and more complete once the "just google some fragments of it" paradigm has driven out those with the talent to structure and explain complex things?The best you can hope from the "just google it" people is endless iterations of existing material.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 18, 2012, 09:19:05 am
content: Quote from: BoredAtWork on May 18, 2012, 08:02:21 amThere is a current debate among scientists, who are an arguably creative and knowledgeable bunch, that following scientific papers is becoming disproportionately more expensive due to ongoing division of the journals into smaller and smaller subfields. This is a marketing trick on the side of the publishers to increase profits which leads to increased cost to scientific institutions and also to most work to remain buried into some archive. So the scientists themselves are pretty well motivated and do want their work to be shared and disseminated but there is a middleman who is preventing this. There is some work going on I believe towards getting rid of the middlemen.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serials_crisishttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_access_journalQuoteYou are talking about blogging aren't you, the most pointless shuffling of manure there ever was. It is not what I mean by "information wants to be free" rather it is that exploiting the public by means hiding information is a common pattern these days both for companies and governments, a sort of extortion. The society tries to liberate as much information as possible, ideally journalists are supposed to do that with governments and hackers are supposed to do the same on electronics.

author: david77
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 18, 2012, 10:01:37 am
content: I remember I once wanted to take an electronics book out from our local library and the lady at the till refused to lend it to me because I was too young and the stuff in there was too dangerous for a kid. That must have been in 1992-93 when I was 11 or 12 years old. I went home and complained to my mum who had some very strong words with the library manager. Had no problems with them from then on.

author: tinhead
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 18, 2012, 10:01:49 am
content: Quote from: BoredAtWork on May 18, 2012, 08:02:21 amfull ack on that.

author: Bored@Work
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 18, 2012, 10:49:49 am
content: Quote from: HAL-42b on May 18, 2012, 09:19:05 amYes, the scientific community is working on solving their unique problem.s Scientists don't get money for publishing scientific papers, but have to pay for getting scientific magazines with the papers of other scientists. In the past publishers provided a valuable service by helping to share ideas between scientists in a controlled way. But these days publishers became to greedy for the service they provide. They essentially sell the scientist community back their own ideas they got for free from then. And that is indeed a situation which can be fixed with the Internet.But that situation is unique to the scientist community. Scientists are not used to get paid by publishers and don't expect to get paid by the Internet.What I am talking about is different. I am talking about engineering books. Most scientific publications are hard to read and hard to understand by the average engineer. It takes someone to bridge that gap. The special kind of engineer or scientist with the talent, skills and knowledge to reduce abstract scientific research to practical use and record that in a book or other media, thoroughly treating the subject. So other engineers can understand and apply it, teachers can teach it to students, etc. And these authors need to be motivated to put the hard work and time into writing.QuoteNo, because that would include this EEVblog video blog thing, you might have heard of itFor me a blog is just information which is presented by using a simplified content management system, called blog software. It says nothing about the contents and the value of the information.What I mean is, for example, that the world doesn't need yet another presentation how the ideal op amp works. There are thousands of these presentations out there. I don't care if such a page has been hand-crafted or written using blog software.QuoteOne argument of the "information wants to be free" proponents is that hiding information won't work in the long term because it gets cheaper and cheaper to distribute information, and government and companies are therefore fighting a lost battle.However, what they miss is that information you can't comprehend because it is too complex, even if free, is not information, for you but just data. If we lose those who can translate information so we can understand it, we just end up in a see of data.QuoteThe society tries to liberate simple information or simple to transform and interpret information. It shies away from the complex information it can't make sense of.

author: Spawn
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 18, 2012, 01:47:51 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on May 18, 2012, 03:41:14 amDave, I am talking about people who don’t even do a single research before they ask things on forums, they want everything handed over in a golden plate. Indeed some of them improve themselves but still 10% (just a number in my head) won’t make it easily, because of their laziness and yes like you said they have better media than we ever seen in eighties and have also better change to improve them self.You are right about the lazy kids pre internet, most of my collage friends didn’t make it, out of a class with 12 youngsters only me and another guy is still in electrics the other 10 are doing totally different things. Problem in the Netherlands is that youngsters don’t do electronics in eighties where the classes not full and now days classes are still not full, if you compare this to metal workers and car technique the numbers are really low, like now with my son he is also doing electronics and his class is so tiny he has to share class with other kids doing totally different education, whilst the metal en structure classes are full which they have to split in two.Quote from: bullet308 on May 18, 2012, 05:02:07 amWhy? And no it was not my intention to say they are “unmotivated” why would I? I am talking about laziness the word we know as it is. Just like me asking my wife to grab my beer when I could get myself while we sit in same room. A unmotivated person won’t come here and ask things to learn something because they are already unmotivated why would they come here in first place, here again I am comparing with my beer, if I was unmotivated I wouldn’t want to drink that beer, I want it but I am just too lazy grab myself (this matter of speaking of course, and I am not a alcoholic btw)So I don’t understand when word “lazy” became “unmotivated” in my opinion totally two different things.

author: bullet308
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 18, 2012, 02:16:42 pm
content: Quote from: bullet308 on May 18, 2012, 05:02:07 amSo you subscribe to the school of thought that one is not supposed to tell stupid people they are stupid, or lazy people they are lazy? And that they will all become mass murders if you tell them the truth? And that it is perfectly OK they feel entitled to everything without the need to put anything of their own in? And that it is OK to be lazy, because some eduction clown didn't sufficiently motivate / amuse / entertain to become active and learn?QuotePlease explain how "that crap that is OUTSIDE", i.e. stuff on the Internet, is supposed happen to end up on the Internet? How it is supposed to be enhanced, get better and more complete once the "just google some fragments of it" paradigm has driven out those with the talent to structure and explain complex things?The best you can hope from the "just google it" people is endless iterations of existing material.Not much point in telling people they are "stupid". That simply sets them up to sell themselves short, which is entirely too common a problem. Same thing with "lazy". Instead of calling people names, why not simply offer them up the material as best you can and then assess them on how well they learned it? I understand what you are saying, though The problem is not that we are not telling enough people they are stupid, but rather we are dumbing down the assessment of what they have learned for reasons that have little to do with what needs to be learned in order to be proficient. Just teach the material, set the standard and hold them to it. They will either get it or not. They will then either be able to perform or not.As for the "just Google it" bit, what you are talking about is what is referred to in the education business as "higher-order Blooms", which stems from Bloom's Taxonomy, a way of grading just how complex an intellectual activity is. The higher order ones include things like synthesis and creativity, lower order ones things like remembering and understanding.The trick is to match the level of "Blooms" with the material to be learned. Another thing about them is that they tend to build upon one another. In electronics, for instance, things you might want to remember include stuff like Ohm's Law and things you might want to understand include what Ohm's Law is supposed to capture, the relationship between resistance, voltage and current. On the high-end, you might use things like Ohm's Law to design and build a new type of audio amplifier or some such.The thing is, in this new world of ours, you may not have to memorize so much stuff like Ohms Law, as it is generally going to be available on the Internet at any time, but you will still have to understand that it relates to resistance, voltage and current and how that applies to designing and building more and more complex circuits. You may not need to memorize how to, for instance, measure inductance in a component using a pair of vacuum tube voltage meters in the absence of an LCR meter, but it sure as hell is useful to be able to look it up when needed. I don't have a LCR meter but I do have a pair of old VTVMs, and knowing how to use Google got me an old military TM that told me how to do it "the old fashioned way". But then, it certainly was helpful to look up the Wikipedia definition of "inductor" and the formulas associated with induction...So, its all about applying the right set of tools to the job, and knowing when to apply them. "Just Google it" is a great answer for looking up Ohm's Law, but it will only buy you so much when designing the great multi-million dollar widget. One builds on the other.Sorry for rambling on.

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 19, 2012, 12:57:25 am
content: Hehe, There's a bit in part 2 around 10minutes where he has just started to go on a rant about things in America and then there's an editing cut.Coincidence?Makes me wonder what was cut.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 19, 2012, 02:26:22 am
content: Quote from: Spawn on May 18, 2012, 01:47:51 pmI see those as separate issues.What I was talking about was that the internet and new hacking/making scene has meant a LOT more kids are getting into electronics in some form or another, and that's a good thing. Yet there seems to be this big argument that the power of the Internet has also made then lazier.Whether or not the internet has made them lazy is another issues entirely, but I have experienced the same sheer laziness pre-internet too. Not only in normal schools, but technical schools and universities too, and people who responded to my projects by (snail) mail, on old BBS forums etc. It's nothing new to me at all.Dave.

author: vxp036000
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 19, 2012, 02:34:38 am
content: Honestly, while getting people into electronics is a great for the hobby, the market for EEs is saturated. The pay has dropped over the years, jobs are going oversees, and there is virtually no job security. I tell people to get a technical degree so they can get a decent paying job, but get out of the rat race ASAP. The few jobs left in my country are in academia or business development. There is no room left for "real" EE jobs around here.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 19, 2012, 02:38:22 am
content: Quote from: bullet308 on May 18, 2012, 02:16:42 pmSometimes I think people have to earn such a detailed response. It takes someone a lot of time and effort to serve up good information in a usable way, and if you like doing that sort of stuff for anyone regardless of how they approach you, then of course that's terrific. But what happens when it's completely wasted on them? Would have been better to just point them to some existing material first?This is why I now have a policy of not replying to personal technical email enquiries, I direct them to the forum, so that not only can other people help them as well, but then the information becomes publicly available for others to find as well, and contributes to that knowledge pool of "just google it" pointers.And sometimes teaching peoplehowto find information instead of just giving it and explaining it to them can be a much better approach. So the "just googe this" response can actually teach them a lot.Dave.

author: bullet308
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 19, 2012, 07:04:19 pm
content: I don't blame you for not offering up personal responses for technical questions. It would be insane for you to manage, and inefficient and ultimately less effective in getting them the right answer for their needs than submitting it to a forum, just as you say. Hell, you can still jump in and offer up an answer if you want to. To not leverage this thing called the Internet, which is all about the collection and redistribution of information, would be madness. And, as you say, directing such things to the forum does nothing but enhance the nutritional quality of the sea of information we all swim in together.I suppose what we have to differentiate here is between teaching people stuff and teaching people how to think, two very different tasks, the latter of which is largely (but not entirely) beyond the purview of a specialized forum like this. They say one definition of an intellectual is his/her ability to hold two contrary ideas in mind at the same time without the cognitive dissonance disabling them. I suppose one way to teach how to think is exercises that force them to work with those contrasting ideas in just that way. Its easy to do when teaching history, since history is full of conflicting interpretations and clashes of ideas. In electronics and engineering...not sure how that works.Facts are the building blocks of knowledge. Knowing where the blocks are does you a limited amount of good if you don't know how to stack and weave them correctly, but then, knowing how to stack and weave blocks that are not available is even less useful. "Just Google it" gets you the building blocks and teaching people how to get those blocks is extremely valuable. The rest is going to be largely up to them, and how much they care to learn.The hacker/maker thing is similar except it it offers the advantage of providing immediate sensory feedback, which is invaluable for many learners. Just because most of them produce derivative and not-very-creative work does not make it a useless exercise by any means. Just making a bigger slice of the public more technology, science, engineering and just plain logic-aware is an invaluable thing, by my estimation.Further, those that go on to get their proper bona fides as engineers and learn of the fancy-schmancy math will find that it gives them a real leg up over the kids that were good in math and figured engineers make good money, so why not, but have never melted a drop of solder in their lives. Win-win-win. Putting up with another boring-ass assortment of blinky LED projects along the way is a small price to pay, I figure...

author: Spawn
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 20, 2012, 05:52:35 pm
content: Videos and information added to first post.

author: firewalker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 21, 2012, 07:33:14 am
content: Dave, how does it fell to meet an actual "hero" from your childhood? Anxious? Afraid that he could be different than what you thought?I believe that that you left the interview with a big smile stuck on your face.Alexander.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 21, 2012, 12:01:32 pm
content: Quote from: firewalker on May 21, 2012, 07:33:14 amI had some advantage in knowing what he was like by the short clip in the State of Electronics doco preview "Roll Call" video.But yeah, quite anxious and excited to meet him.I was a fair bit surprised to find that he's now a big property developer which takes up all his daytime hours, I pictured him still slumped over the soldering iron and shipping kits, but that was not to be.I didn't dare ask his age, but I was surprised at the huge level of energy and enthusiasm he still has.QuoteIndeed, until I thought of a dozen things I hadn't asked him. I really should have went in with a plan and some questions, instead of just turning up, hitting record and having a chat.And he was kind enough to take me to dinner afterwards, during which I thought "wow, 25 years later I'm having diner with Colin Mitchell, this is cool!"Dave.

author: Rerouter
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 21, 2012, 12:05:36 pm
content: dave your comment can't help me but think at some point later in your life you will probably experience the flip side of the interveiw, to many of us you stand in similar shoes

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 21, 2012, 12:53:32 pm
content: Quote from: Rerouter on May 21, 2012, 12:05:36 pmBut I'm just a someone who presses record and mumbles!Dave.

author: Rerouter
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 21, 2012, 12:56:36 pm
content: and he was just someone who sat down at his table and scribbled

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 21, 2012, 01:02:27 pm
content: Quote from: Rerouter on May 21, 2012, 12:56:36 pmand pioneered the kit business, and produced a magazine by hand back in the days before computers made it easy.Anyone can do what I do because it's so relatively easy, as we all have the tools and it costs nothing. But few could have done what Colin did, and indeed no one else in the country, and probably the world, did.Dave.

author: Rerouter
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 21, 2012, 01:06:42 pm
content: i know.. i was oversimplifying like you did,while colins shoes are probably bloody hard to fill, your mumblings are understandable enough that you have a following, sadly not what most people have, thus making you unique,

author: robrenz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 21, 2012, 01:31:37 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on May 21, 2012, 12:53:32 pmYes, but with infectious enthusiasm, great depth of knowledge, effective teaching style, yet with humility.Many thanks and keep up the great work Dave.Regards, robrenz

author: bullet308
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 21, 2012, 02:32:13 pm
content: You don't have to be Colin Mitchell. Just keep doing what you do.I sense a passing-of-the-flag moment here. Perhaps a strategic alliance leveraging his resources...?

author: wosser
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 21, 2012, 06:40:30 pm
content: I just wanted to say I really enjoyed the video interview series with Colin Mitchell. People who give up (large amounts of) their own time to help people learn in this way are heroes to me. I put Dave in the same category for sure.I sent Dave a few dollars for his efforts and I'd encourage others to do so too, EEVBlog is one of the best and certainly most individual sources of electronics advice and ideas anywhere I've seen on the web.

author: Precisiontools
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2012, 11:25:58 am
content: Thanks for making the effort on catching up with Colin and getting his thoughts. It's all good info on the golden years of the electronic scene in Australia.I would have to say Jim Rowe was my inspiration, and single handedly guided me into electronics. How about an interview with him?

author: gregariz
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2012, 06:19:37 pm
content: TA! Thats a trip down memory lane.Its funny how we get the dates mixed up. I had thought it was about 82 or 83 when I saw his magazines in the newsagents, rather than about 85 as he mentioned. I remember writing him a letter to tell him I got a mile out of the bug (Ant/Amoeba cant remember).On a side note does anyone remember the small hobby computer programming mag (small local aussie one on colour newsprint) that was in the newsagents around the same time?. It used to just have listings in it that you could type in. It had an advertisement for the Sega SC-3000 when it came out. I've never heard it mentioned anywhere.. I suspect it only lasted a few issues.

author: PA0PBZ
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2012, 10:13:13 pm
content: I was very surprised to see a BC548 used as a FM (100Mhz) oscillator (the FM Bug). I would never have tried that because in my head that is a LF transistor. Just had a look at the datasheet and it says FT = 300Mhz... Is it just me?

author: FrankMc
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: May 24, 2012, 11:06:25 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on May 21, 2012, 12:01:32 pmHi DaveIt was nice to see you interview Colin.....Back in around 1988 ( i think) i wanted to learn about microprocessors and came across Colins TEC...I built it and all the add ons and im sure i built the Microcomp as well.....Brings back some nice memories......Called into Colins house in Moorabbin to purchase kits and met him several times...Also got into pic micro,s from an ad on one of his Mag,s...Hoping to see an interview soon with Don Mc Kenzie ;-)... Built some of his stuff as well...Z80 printer buffer..Thanks againFrank

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 24, 2012, 11:31:45 am
content: Quote from: gregariz on May 22, 2012, 06:19:37 pmYeah, I have similar mix up's. Like I was sure DSE et.al were making EA kits before TE came along. But I trust in Colin's memory.I'm going to start a series on going through the old EA mags in chronological order, should be really fun. Just not sure how to space it, one mag every 2 or 5 years?I'm talking 40 years worth here...Dave.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 24, 2012, 11:34:43 am
content: Quote from: FrankMc on May 24, 2012, 11:06:25 amSo did I, with Newfound Electronics PP1 programmer.I quizzed Colin on this, but he did not recall every advertising a PIC programmer.QuoteThat would be interesting. I know Don (never met personally though), he watches the blog, and I think was the first ever person to comment on it back when it was on the aus.electronics group.Dave.

author: bullet308
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2012, 01:33:54 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on May 24, 2012, 11:31:45 amHow about just pick out some of the cooler projects and do them on a breadboard? Be nice if there were gerbers available for the boards...

author: amspire
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2012, 03:04:35 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on May 24, 2012, 11:31:45 amI am really looking forward to this.I remember one of the really exciting moments was the what may have been EA's first ever IC project. I think it was a Fairchild uLogic 914 RTL (Resistor-Transistor Logic) IC, and I think they used it to build a differential audio amplifier or something. This would be probably be late 60's.It is not that it was the first IC available, but it was the first range of cheap ICs for the hobbyist.It may look like a dumb project now, but it is very hard to explain how exciting it was at the time. At that time, we were still playing around with germanium Mullard OC71 transistors that came in a black painted glass tube, and to actually have an IC was like having something magical.It was also a time when not only did AWA make transistor radios, but they made the germanium transistors. The capacitors, resistors, diodes, speakers, batteries, transformers, the PCB and case were all made in Australia.The series will be a great trip through the history of electronics.Some other key points in history I can think of is the first silicon transistor projects (probably the BC107/108/109 transistors). The first uA709 opamp projects. The thing about the 709 is if you took an input to a rail, it would blow up. The first uA741, LM301A and LM324 projects. The first 7400 series digital IC project. The ping-pong tennis gave for a TV screen - that was huge. Definitely a few of the pre-transistor Valve projects. Probably one of Jim Rowe's Playmaster amplifier designs. A few instruments like a frequency counter, the low distortion audio oscillator using one of the now un-obtanium thermistor bead devices for amplitude stabilization. The first AM/FM tuner.Richard.

author: Kevlarious
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: May 25, 2012, 02:29:19 am
content: SWEET vids !!! TY 4 sharing

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 25, 2012, 02:53:20 am
content: It would be nice to pick out those big milestone projects etc and feature those, but it wold mean I'd have to look through every single issue which would be a massive amount of work. I was hoping to just pick say the Jan issue of each 5 years and see what has changed from the previous years. In terms of types of projects, components used, the ads, editorials, mailbags, feature articles etc.Dave.

author: pickle9000
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2012, 04:11:11 am
content: Don't forget to include some ad's, I wanna see pricing and features from way back....mike

author: amspire
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2012, 04:12:46 am
content: I think each March issue has a yearly index, if that helps.Definitely agree with pickle 9000 - ads please.I managed to find a partial index of EA articles, so here are some suggestions:Apr 71 Start of a series Basic Electronics Course that was in every issue for several yearsNov 72 Inductance BridgeJan 73 Digital volt-Ohm Meter, 2-Meter Portable FM TransceiverFeb 73 Digital Volt-Ohm Meter - 2Jul 73 Aerial Noise Bridge, Introduction to Marine Acoustics (start of a series)Mar 74 Solid State RC BridgeMay 74 Audio Distortion Meter, Simple TRF Receiver, Australia's Radio Pioneers, Musical Note SynthesiserJul 74 Build Electronic Concert Organ, Playmaster 142, Automatic Telephone Exchange, Scope SwitchMar 79 Wien bridge and op-amp select filter's bandwidthApr 79 Noise generator, Hee haw siren for toys, Handy aid to fine soldering, Caravan DC power - a better wayFeb 80 Novel way to play your old 78s, High current regulated power supplyJun 80 Bridge measures unknown resistance and capacitance, Improved resistance-capacitance oscillatorFeb 81 Add milliohms measurement to your digital multimeterSept 82 Active DC Load, NiCad battery charger, Simulate a NiCad cellAug 83 Wide Range Low Distortion Sweep OscillatorOct 83, Jan 85, Nov 88, Jun 94, Oct 95 Capacitance MeterAug 85 Adjustable supply to +/-100V at 0.25AJan 87 ECG waveform display on Apple II computerAug 87 Complex impedance meterJan 89 Electrolytic capacitor testerMay 93 Direct conversion receiver, Fuzz and wah-wah pedal, Remote control tester,Jan 95 DVM milliohm adaptor, Efficient linear power supply (1.25V - 30V @ 3A)Apr 95 In-circuit transistor testerMay 98 ESR meter measures batteries, tooJan 99 Phase Bridge gives a free third audio channelMar 00 Simple ESR tester (meter), Soft audio limiterRichard.

author: gregariz
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2012, 04:28:50 am
content: Here are the project lists that used to be on the Electronics Australia website for both EA and ETI. I used to go to the RCS website for that stuff and a list of AEM, but RCS seems to be shut now, I guess his son decided to call it a day?

author: gregariz
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2012, 05:36:22 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on May 24, 2012, 11:31:45 amI would of trusted his memory too.. but its a while ago now so I'll cut him some slack. I ran across this guys website who seems to have a couple of date stamps on his magazine (Gordon and Gotch 1982?)http://retro-riders.com/tech/magz/http://retro-riders.com/tech/magz/te/te_magz.htmlhttp://retro-riders.com/tech/magz/te/magz/Issue08/big2.jpgWhat confused me I think was when he talked of ETI/EA doing a project electronics magazine. The only one I could think of was ETI's hobby electronics, and I'm pretty sure that was around1980 or 8182, but of course a few of the mags were releasing 'books of circuits' around that time so I could be completely wrong.

author: FrankMc
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: May 25, 2012, 09:19:13 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on May 24, 2012, 11:34:43 amYour spot on Dave...I bought the same Programmer..The guys name was Jim Robertson from down Geelong way....Speaking of Mags..... When i was an apprentice i use to buy Everyday Electronics and Practical Electronics every month....Frank

author: FrankMc
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: May 25, 2012, 09:27:01 am
content: Quote from: amspire on May 24, 2012, 03:04:35 pmHiI remember having some of those OC 71 transistors.....I still have some bc107,108 and 109,s that i brought to Oz back in 1977...;-)Frank

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 25, 2012, 11:06:14 am
content: Quote from: gregariz on May 25, 2012, 05:36:22 amBoth EA and ETI did one-off and Top Projects Vol 1-x, Test Gear Vol 1-x or whatever.I showed some of these in my magazine memories video.They were just compilations of existing published projects.I think I even got a cheque for getting republished in EA's Test Gear Vol IIIDave.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 25, 2012, 11:09:29 am
content: Quote from: pickle9000 on May 25, 2012, 04:11:11 amI could do a whole series just on the ads and the progress of test gear etc over time.In fact I could split the videos into such segments. Have one video on ads spanning 40 years, one video on projects over 40 years, one on feature articles etc ?Dave.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 25, 2012, 11:17:48 am
content: Quote from: FrankMc on May 25, 2012, 09:19:13 amYep, that's him.I recall it wasn't an ad, but some form of little editorial for the programmer.IIRC it was the worlds first PICstart compatible programmer, so it worked with MPLAB. All other programmer of the day to use their own (buggy) custom program.I remember getting the board and software from Jim, it was one of the early ones, and the disk was infected with a virus!I still have the board, and the follow up Warp 13.Dave.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 25, 2012, 11:20:20 am
content: Quote from: gregariz on May 25, 2012, 05:36:22 amYeah, seems to be Nov 1982 for Issue 8.Dave.

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2012, 11:28:53 am
content: Quote from: amspire on May 24, 2012, 03:04:35 pmSo am I. Can't wait. As for picking out what to include, I'd suggest doing the occasional blog with a random issue featured. Be interesting how you derive the randomness of your selection.Could you explain if or how many issues are available online as an archive. Whilst I realise recent editions of current mags still attract a fee for the hard copy, surely by now the defunct ones could be uploaded for posterity.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 25, 2012, 11:38:20 am
content: Quote from: Ed.Kloonk on May 25, 2012, 11:28:53 amI think the most interesting part would be seeing how things change over time, so a regular series is in order I think.QuoteNone are available online.Silicon Chip bought all the rights to Electronics Australia, and hence ETI as well. And they still sell (photocopied) back issues.Leo has said he'll get them all scanned onto DVD's for sales eventually, but it's been a long time now, and last I spoke to him about it about a year ago, he didn't seem too enthusiastic about it any more.Dave.

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2012, 11:40:49 am
content: Bummer.

author: amspire
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2012, 02:04:03 pm
content: I think EA and probably the other Australian electronics magazines are on Fiche at libraries like Sydney University's Fisher library, but not on line, so you would have to go there in person.

author: gregariz
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2012, 05:04:24 pm
content: I don't know what the status of AEM was but I suspect that nobody would really care if we uploaded it. I'm sure 'legally' someone still owns it. Unfortunately my copies are in a lockup somewhere in Aus.http://retro-riders.com/tech/magz/aem/magz/1985/Jul/big.jpg

author: vk3yedotcom
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2012, 11:51:28 pm
content: Great series - watched them all at least twice!Quote from: EEVblogIn a way I'm not suprised. Colin's magazines often had articles about magic tricks, not being ripped off, business and making money. I enjoyed these as much as the electronics.You could certainly discern his business philosophy. Starting small, concentrating on the product and effective marketing. Basically keeping costs and paperwork low so that you can offer good value yet still make a profit. Eg working from home rather than opening a shop. Or not employing people unless they can generate much more in profit than their wage. And not borrowing money.Overseas opportunities were mentioned - saying that you can make 10 times the money by taking your ideas overseas (not sure if this was written before or after the American venture). And real estate as a sound investment was definitely mentioned at least once.All these points are in his books, indicating several skills you don't always see in the one person (ie the technical electronic design, educational/teaching and business/entrepeneurial).Quote from: gregariz on May 25, 2012, 05:36:22 amThere was a one-off Project Electronics book, published by the Electronics Today crowd. It had a plain red cover. Stapled magazine style with maybe 80 pages. Hugely popular and got into a lot of libraries. Marty's listings say it came out in 1977 (seehttp://retro-riders.com/tech/magz/).This meant it preceded the Dick Smith Fun Way series (c1980). Project Electronics isn't in the DSE 1982/3 catalogue but I'm pretty earlier older catalogues had it. Dick Smith's biography (by Ike Bain) mentions that he was a student and implementer of other people's ideas (eg supermarket style shopping for electronics after touring UK/US).Maybe Project Electronics was an inspiration for the Fun Way series, with the difference being that Funway 1 started right at the bottom - ie no soldering - and Funway 2 and (later) 3 would keep the interest (and customers) up. The cunning thing about the Funway series (from a business POV) was that whereas a Tandy Science Fair kit was complete - no more parts needed - the Funway series continually needed more parts. Either to build the basic project (FW1) or for enhancements (FW2).Back on topic, DSE didn't sell TE's Electronics Notebook in 1982/3 but did in 86/87. Their TE range expanded greatly during the '90s and was stocked until at least the early 2000s.Peter

author: vk3yedotcom
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2012, 11:53:29 pm
content: Quote from: gregariz on May 25, 2012, 05:04:24 pmMight be worth dropping Roger Harrison a line. He's active in ham radio VHF circles and on the VK Logger forum.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2012, 04:28:17 am
content: One of the few advantages of being as old as dirt,is the knowledge that the world didn't spring into being full grown on January 1st 1980!When I started my first job, at Atkins (WA) back in 1959,there were a number of companies who provided kits for RTV &H/EA projects.such as Q-Plus.RCS,& some lesser lights,Back then,you could buy a complete kit to build a (black & white) TV set from Q-Plus,(& strangely,Philips).RCS stuff was usually a bit less ambitious,being either short form kits,or small audio amps,etc.You could also get short form kits for the RTV&H Playmaster amplifiers,but you had to buy the valves,transformers,etc separately.University Graham produced a kit to build a Valve Tester--we hadoneof those in stock!Atkins also had a few Heathkits!The advantage of being a WA company is that you could buy kits & stuff from many different suppliers,without being pushed one way or the other by "The Wise Men from the East".At that time,there were 3 main Electronics suppliers in Perth,Atkins,A.J.Wyle, & Carlyles,who all sold the RCS & Q-Plus kits.By 1965,when I left Atkins,the kit situation was pretty much dying,as people could buy cheaper than build,especially TV sets,so the market was disappearing.Over the next few years, things changed fairly rapidly, with A.J.Wyle disappearing,Atkins & Carlyle merging,General Accessories appearing for a few years,with an initially successful Self Service business plan,then finally failing.In the early 1970s the Electronics Supply situation was pretty barren,then Altronics opened,(initially as a Dick Smith agent),then in its own right.Of course, DSE were going "gangbusters" in the Eastern States,but we didn't get one of his stores till later.Kits were something you occasionally saw referred to in ads in EA.In the late 1970s the CB Boom hit!-----Everybody had to sell CBs,Chemists,K Mart,Service Stations,you name it!!Kits! What the hell are kits!!Which pretty much bring us to the situation faced by Colin & others in the early '80s.By the time Talking Electronics came out,I had been working in Electronics for nearly 20 years,& to be honest,it didn't do anything for me.A lot of my younger workmates still bought the mag though,& obviously learned a lot from it.

author: vk3yedotcom
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2012, 05:45:35 am
content: Quote from: vk6zgo on July 15, 2012, 04:28:17 amA question - where did Willis Trading (445 Murray St) fit into the picture?Early 1970s EA ads (before my time) had them stocking a mixture of semiconductors, built-up amplifiers and kits (capacitor discharge ignition and simple radios).Did they stock much more than that?I remember their small Vic Park store - going in there only a few months before they closed down/retired.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2012, 06:26:28 am
content: Quote from: vk3yedotcom on July 15, 2012, 05:45:35 amHi Peter,yeah,I forgot Willis.They originally stocked similar stuff to Atkins,but on a smaller scale--similar to A.J.Wyle.Towards the end,they had a lot of the stuff you referred to,& some secondhand Ham stuff.I have a funny idea that when the old bloke retired,someone else took over & moved it up to the top end of Hay St,next door to the "Massage Parlor".(or that may have been Genacs---senility rules!!)In any case,I remember the bloke there telling us that he got told off by the Madam,because the Geeks were all parking in her parking lot!!By the way,do you remember when General Accessories used to sell "cleanskin" transistors out of a big lolly jar?We used to call them BC10?s at work.Bob Bacon at ABW2 made lots of stuff with them,he even cut the top off one to use as an opto-transistor.

author: vk3yedotcom
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2012, 07:02:08 am
content: Quote from: vk6zgo on July 15, 2012, 06:26:28 amUnfortunately that was way before my time.For me the world (at least for electronics) indeed started c1980, though often with 1950s - 70s salvaged parts due to distance from shops.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2012, 07:13:57 am
content: Quote from: vk3yedotcom on July 15, 2012, 07:02:08 amYeah,I still remember some of the valve CW transmitters you submitted to AR when you were living down south.You were a bit of a prodigy!The mid '70s to early '80s were a pretty inactive period for me in Hobby Electronics,( although I became a Ham in that period),& I didn't keep up with what was going on with the suppliers to the same extent,so I couldn't quite remember where Genacs fitted in the chronology.On reflection,they would have been mid '60s to mid '70s,so that must have been Willis that moved up to the top of Hay St.They only lasted a few months up there---maybe the Madam had them run out of town!

author: JTR
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2012, 04:01:35 pm
content: Quote from: FrankMc on May 25, 2012, 09:19:13 amFrank Mate! I was just thinking about you and wondering if you were still active in the electronics scene. You brought the very first PP1 and started of my business. I remember that phone conversation we had.You, [insert Scottish accent here] when will you have this ready to sell.Me, trying not to commit myself, "Oh maybe in three or four months. "You "How much will this cost."Me, I gave you some price that was about a quarter of what the parallax programmer was (they had the whole market to themselves, except for the shite picstart-16B and later 16C).You "OK, I send you a cheque, you will get it on Monday."Me thinking to myself, Oh shit a customer, a real customer, my God I'm going to actually sell something. Oh my God I have to actually FINISH something instead of forever working on it like it was my Sistine Chapel painting. I was beside myself - success knocking at my door.The three or four months of work was done in a few days and I posted of my first PIC programmer to you the next week. OH, I cashed that cheque too, Thanks!.From there I when on to make a shit load of money particularly with the later WARP-13 until illness, the advent of the pickit 2 and the GST over complicating things sort of all combined to force me into "retirement."Yes there was some link between talking electronics and the PP1 but I think it may have been a "favour" the Colin did for me. I cannot clearly remember exactly how it happened but I think there was a free ad on something that was inserted into something Colin published. After all that is how you (and Dave) found me.BTW. The first "Microchip" PIC was the 16C54 and 16C55 and not the 16C84. There were the masked rommed GI versions before this including the 40-pin PIC1640.I know that Colin wanted to produce and market the PP1 but by then I knew of all the problems surrounding TE. In any case I am glad I got something for all that work I did on the TEC-1. JMON and the peripherals. I was never "on staff" there and got nothing for all that work. There was some rather unfortunate events that killed any hope for issue 16 of TE and my plans to hopefully follow up with some work that paid its way. Anyway that part of the TE story is perhaps best left behind. Something about these kit FM bugs, the "law" (ha, ha) and an innocent bystander who the cops wrongly identified as the "brains" of the operation because the more technical stuff of TE was on my Dick Smith, 8MHz, NEC? V20 (Wow! 20% faster than the stock intel 8088) PC with, what, maybe a 512K harddrive. They were looking for something in particular to "steal" under the guise of enforcing the telecommunications act. It is there in the last video. That is what really killed any chance of another issue of the magazine and a new version of the TEC-1. (Anyone got a 5 1/2' floppy drive. Might be able to resurrect it...) Oh, and there was some issues with "Peter Crowcroft" and how he ripped everything from TE. Boxes of stuff he carted out the door and copied in Hong Kong and started selling these cheap knock-offs through Jaycar and Altronics.Colin was and still is a brilliant thinker and like others I got my start through TE. Back in that day there was no internet and if you wanted technical data, well for me it meant a trip up to Melbourne and a visit to the technical book shop with a pad and a pen. I could not afford $30-$80 dollars for a book when chances are there were only a few pages of relevant information. TE changed that and the Australian electronics scene has a lot to thank Colin (and Jock Ellis) for. They chiefly made electronics affordable and accessible to many young people. And here some of us are.It is good to see that Colin has kicked on and his web site is a wealth of information. The demise of the magazine and the reasons behind it are sad but never the less it did serve its purpose and continues to do so in it new internet form.Good to see that you too Dave have kicked on. I remember the tronnort days and speaking to you on the phone. I also remember that you had the world's most campest message on your answering machine. I still cringe to this day.BTW, Dave, my friends at dangerous prototypes have reworked the bus pirate LCD board to include a dual header just for you.