Large Hi-def TV as a ubermonitor - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: mubes
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2017, 09:54:31 pm
content: Perhaps a dumb-assed question, but I'm pretty good at those....For lots of reasons related to CAD and other such things I keep hanging my nose over a large hi-def monitor for my working setup, but I wondered if anyone had played with using a hidef TV for the same purpose, I'm thinking something along the lines of;http://www.philips.co.uk/c-p/55PUS6401_12/6000-series-4k-ultra-slim-tv-powered-by-android-tvtm-with-ambilight-2-sided-and-pixel-plus-ultra-hd/specifications...perhaps not this specific one, I'm only using it as an example.I only sit about 2ft in front of my monitor, so a 55" screen is obviously complete overkill, but there again I have a 8ft wide desk and I can't reach that far either. I'm figuring that such a large screen, coupled with the high res, would allow me to work on one part of it and use the rest as a 'proper' desktop to dump windows onto etc...I don't think I'd mind moving my head L/R/U/D to focus onto a different application - after all, that's what I do right now with my dual monitor setup....a 55" 3840x2160 res display should be comparable to my current two monitor (2x24" 1920x1080) setup, with two more on top, shouldn't it?Obvious questions exist around inputs, refresh rates etc, but this is for work purposes so as long as my PC can fly it, and the refresh rate is high enough to not be intrusive (I'm no gamer) then I don't see these as fundemental issues....does anyone have any experience of this? Reasonable idea or just very very silly? What did I miss? There must be something 'cos otherwise lots of people would be doing it.DAVE

author: Tomorokoshi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2017, 10:07:54 pm
content: I have 3 screens. The two outside ones are 24 inches wide. They are angled on the desk to approximate the inside of a hexagon where I am in the middle. With a screen that wide you would start to look at the outer edges at such a high angle that you may encounter various image artifacts such as blurriness, vignetting, etc. along with other eye stresses.

author: oPossum
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2017, 10:08:05 pm
content: I use a 40" UHD TV as my primary monitor. Takes some getting used to.Make sure whatever TV you choose can do 4:4:4 color at full resolution. This is very important when using it as monitor. 4:2:2 and 4:2:0 look horrible up close.You will also need a video card that supports HDMI 2.0 if you want to run 60 Hz refresh. Some HDMI 1.3 cards support 4:4:4 color at 30 Hz - that is what I currently have. The 30 Hz refresh doesn't bother me. I don't play games.

author: mubes
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2017, 10:12:10 pm
content: Quote from: Tomorokoshi on March 10, 2017, 10:07:54 pmYes, I was also looking at the curved ones for exactly that reason...trouble is that's getting proper spendy and SWMBO would probably notice such a thing turning up unexpectedly....

author: Howardlong
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2017, 10:21:01 pm
content: Barnacules Nerdgasm runs three 50" 4K TVs in his setup rather than monitors and he's done a couple of Youtube videos on it.Until recently I ran three 4K 28" monitors, I've now switched to a single 34" 4K monitor for most of the time, occasionally bringing in a second when doing PCB layout so I can have the schematic on one screen and the board on the other.The problem of three 4K 28" monitors was that I found myself only using one monitor for prodctivity except for board layouts. Te other problem was that the pixel density for desktop monitor distance was too high, so I ran the monitors at 3200x1800 instead of 3840x2160. You can try to use software scaling but I found it didn't always work.I've now settled on a single 34" (except for board layout when I use an extra monitor) which I run at 3840x2160 and it's just at the edge of what I'd call reasonable at 100% scaling.I think the smallest 4K TV is about 40" which is a bit too big for my main bench setup.For some time I ran my monitors at 30Hz but more recently have upgraded to 60Hz, and if you can do that it makes a difference mostly around mouse cursor lag and judder.For 4K 60Hz you need either Displayport 1.2 or HDMI 2.0 support at both source and monitor. Many motherboards with integrated graphics don't support 4K at 60Hz, even new ones, the devil is in the detail!At one extreme, the new Asrock Z270 Fatal1ty ITX board will support three concurrent 4K 60p monitors on its on board DP, HDMI and Thunderbolt ports, I ran a test on it a few weeks ago.I use lower end AMD FirePro cards for 4K CAD (W2100, W4100, W4300) but I've also used the recently released GTX 1050Ti which is a cost effective way of achieving 4K 60P, but again check the specs of the board, although I think most now will be HDMI 2.0 as well as DP 1.2.

author: Avacee
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 10, 2017, 10:21:58 pm
content: Try sitting 2ft from a 55inch TV in PCWorld for 30 minutes and see if you get any eye strain.If you look like a serious buyer they'll probably let you hook up a laptop as a test - try reading text that is in the corners - it will probably be a strain over time with all the refocusing as the distance will vary greatly compared to the screen being a fairly constant distance.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2017, 10:28:16 pm
content: I've used my 60" 1080p TV as a monitor before, although I didn't sit 2' from it. Looks nice from the sofa.

author: mubes
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2017, 10:48:51 pm
content: I run a Macbook Pro (Retina 13, late 2013 model) as my primary desktop machine....works perfectly well for just about everything I want to do, but looks like I'd be limited to 30Hz at these kids of resolution;https://support.apple.com/en-gb/HT206587

author: VK3DRB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2017, 11:14:12 pm
content: Big monitors have one big drawback: They are not ergonomic and you risk getting a sore neck.If you were done PCB design, 3 x 24 inch monitors side by side seems to to be the ideal, with maybe the middle one at 4K, 27 inches maximum. If you were using Altium and doing layout, you can have the left monitor display the schematic, the middle monitor display the PCB, and the right one display, say, a datasheet or some other documentation.The old saying that "a bad workman blames his tools" is usually used by people that have no practical experience or skill. Good monitors, like a good bed, are always worth the investment because you spend much of your life using them. Anything less is false economy.There are two-bit companies out there that do not understand that not investing in decent monitors for their engineers is false economy. I know one "Ma and Pa Kettle" company who has some of their staff use very old single core Pentium PC's with old hard disks, diskette drives and old consumer type inkjet printers that are almost 10 years old. From what I heard the company is run on false economy and contempt for their employees. For some reason, the owners don't understand why they have high turnover of staff.

author: mariush
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2017, 01:08:29 am
content: To get 4k 60Hz Full RGB or YCbCr 4:4:4 you kinda need HDMI 2.0 ... the more recent Polaris series video cards (RX 460, 470, 480 have it) and the Pascal series (GTX 10** ) support it and a couple of older models as well but don't know which ones from memoryThere are displayport to hdmi adapter/converters which convert displayport connectors to hdmi , here's an example:https://www.amazon.com/AmazonBasics-DisplayPort-to-HDMI-Adapter/dp/B015OV4Z0A/So you can grab a card like RX 460 with 2 display ports and a hdmi and drive 2-3 monitors at same time at 4k each. Or just use your existing card if it has Displayport and use such an adapter if your video card only supports older hdmi 1.3 or 1.4 which can do only 4k @ 30 hz

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 11, 2017, 01:34:59 am
content: The biggest drama is that you'll experience "input lag" with a lot of televisions (you move your mouse and the display updates significantly later). This is due to extra features/processing that standard computer monitors don't do (it's also the reason you have an audio delay feature on most audio amplifiers and DVD/Bluray players, so that you can compensate and correct unsynchronised audio/video).I have a new Philips TV and whilst it's an amazing display, it's not really suited for use as a computer monitor because of this input lag. The displayed image is about 100-200ms behind "real life".

author: casinada
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2017, 01:49:27 am
content: I have a SEIKI 39" 4K TV I'm using as a monitor. It's about 2.5 feet away from me. It is Pre HDMI 2.0 (HDMI 1.4) only 30HZ. I don't play games so no problems so far. If I buy a new one it would be something with HDMI 2.0 and 4.4.4 color as recommended by others. I went from 24" to 28" to 39"..... What's next?

author: rrinker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2017, 02:18:53 am
content: I'd think 55" on a desk would be WAY too big for comfortable use. I have dual 23" at 1080 on this machine, I could do for a pair of 27" but not at 4k, everything would be too small for me. I have a 27" at ~3k on my workbench machine and it's borderline too small, but since it's on an adjustable arm I can move it closer when I need it. I just got a 27" at work that's 1080, it's glorious (I do have poor eyesight, very thick glasses, plus some vision loss in my right eye due to glaucoma.). I've thought about putting a 32-37" 1080 TV on the wall above my desk for playing movies, but even hanging it on the wall I am less than 4' away and that's just too close.I don't think I would want to replace my main desktop with a single larger one, I've gotten so used to dual screens that it's sort of a pain using the one on my lab workbench, even though I get nearly the same amount of information on one screen as I do on the two on this one. But I don't have room for dual screens in the space I have for a workbench so I make do. I'd love to get 2 or 3 of the ones I got at work, I can fit 3 of them on my desk if I clean most stuff off it, or get an arm. One straight ahead and two angled on the sides.

author: rdl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2017, 03:21:59 am
content: I have a 27' 1080 desktop monitor, and I almost think it's too big. I know I don't want anything much bigger, but 4k would be nice. I have my best PC in the living room for games and movies, and such and it's hooked to a 42" 1080 TV. That works fine, but the TV could surely stand to be a lot bigger since it's 8 ft from the sitting position.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2017, 03:33:48 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on March 11, 2017, 01:34:59 amHunt through the settings for the TV many have a "gaming mode" or similar that will reduce latency by removing all the unwanted filtering.

author: Red Squirrel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2017, 04:22:11 am
content: I've been toying with the idea of replacing my 3 monitor setup with a single 4k. I hate that no operating system in existance seems to handle multi monitor properly and it just drives me up the wall. Ex: you are working in a program and it launches a dialog, and the dialog ends up 2 monitors down instead of on the screen you're working on. Or you launch an application from your primary and it ends up on another monitor... window placement in general has always been terribly supported in both Windows and Linux. To combat this issue, I use two raspberry PIs for the side monitors so the main machine only has the one, and use Synergy for mouse/keyboard to work across. Problem is Synergy is a POS that crashes all the time. This also makes 3 machines to manage instead of 1. Updates, etc.So if I went with a single 4k I'd have as much real estate as 4 monitors but only one monitor so none of the annoying window/dialog issues. Hopefully. It's such a large area to work in, it might still be problematic.TVs seem cheaper than monitors too for some reason. I would prefer a normal monitor, like 32", than a TV. Especially considering most if all 4K TVs are going to be smart TVs. No thanks.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2017, 04:37:13 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on March 11, 2017, 01:34:59 amSet it to "game mode" to disable the built in scaler. That's something better done by a decent GPU anyways. Really, some manufacturer should come out with a "gaming optimized" TV that is designed for very low latency and support 120Hz or greater at 4K and/or HDR, maybe even adaptive sync. (The latter of which lets you use DSR to do fast upscaling with the GPU.)Quote from: casinada on March 11, 2017, 01:49:27 amThere's a hacked firmware for it (and the 50") that also allows it to operate at 1080p120. Basically a "super game mode". The difference between 1080p and 4K isn't that significant for gaming but going to 120Hz makes a huge difference. For desktop work it's the other way around.

author: boffin
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 11, 2017, 05:02:52 am
content: I know a few guys that bought the Philips 40" 4k HDTV and essentially made "monster monitor" with it; when they went on a black friday sale in the fall.

author: Howardlong
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2017, 08:05:00 am
content: If you're the experimental type you could add an external GPU through the Thunderbolt port. I did this with a 2012 Macmini Server, first with a GTX 750Ti and more recently with a GTX 1050Ti. The cards I used both support 4k at 60Hz. I found it's much easier to get them working under Windows (bootcamp) than OSX, but be aware that there is no hot plug in earlier Thunderbolt/bootcamp configs. This was my standard desktop setup for some time, until very recently. Note I could not get AMD FirePros to work as an eGPU.Another method is to use Displaylink USB adapters, some of which support 4k, but the ones I used at the time were only 30Hz, I am not sure if they have 60p @ 4K Displaylink adapters yet. They are perfectly good for board layout CAD, but not for full screen video, you cannot tell it's running over USB for non video and non gaming applications. One caveat is that under OSX there is (or was) a rendering incompatibilty with Displaylink adapterd since a recent OSX release. They work fine under Windows (Bootcamp) which is the way I usually use my Macs.

author: Avacee
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 11, 2017, 08:24:15 am
content: Quote from: Red Squirrel on March 11, 2017, 04:22:11 amThat's a failure of the program and not windows. When a dialog is opened the programmer can specify the screen co-ordinates (sometimes wrongly) or use predefines such as "Centre Parent".Microsoft do not follow their own guidelines on this and some system dialogs open at unexpected locations.I agree that this can be very annoying but its usually not the OS's fault.Quote from: Red Squirrel on March 11, 2017, 04:22:11 amAgain a failure of the program to not save its location upon closing and re-specify it upon startup.Or maybe you want everything to open on the primary and then you move it - It'll be hard for the OS to guess which you want (Primary) and which someone else wants (Stored) without a configuration option.You can move programs quickly between monitors using the shortcut "Shift + WindowsKey + Left/Right".Not a fix but quicker than mouse dragging.Edit: Here are the shortcuts for moving windows around on windowsWindows key + up arrow : maximizes the window or undoes minimizing.Windows key + down arrow : minimizes the window and makes windows focus be on whatever application was opened right before, or undoes maximizing.Windows key + left/right : will move the window from snapped left to unsnapped to snapped right to snapped left on the next screen, etc.Windows key + shift + left/right : will move the window to another screen in the same relative position.Windows key + shift + up: Will maximize the window vertically only.Windows key + left/right followed by Windows key + up/down: Will snap/unsnap the window in a corner.

author: rrinker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2017, 07:30:18 pm
content: Windows 10 handles this far better than any previous version of Windows. At work I have a second screen to connect to my laptop, at customer sites I usually just have the laptop. If the last time I opened a particular application it was on the second monitor, it will always be there as long as the second screen is connected. If I open it without the second monitor connected, it just opens on the main screen, no need to use the shortcut keys to move the now hidden window back like on previous versions.

author: Red Squirrel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 12, 2017, 04:20:28 am
content: Quote from: Avacee on March 11, 2017, 08:24:15 amI was mostly talking about Linux but it's a problem in Windows too. The fact that it's the programs that handle it is actually part of the issue, it should be the OS that handles it, as each program is different and that's what makes it so annoying. I have no control over if a program is badly designed or not. Excel for example is super annoying about that. You do a search and the search box ends up on the last monitor instead of on the one where the program is actually opened. Try to move it, but it keeps insisting on going to the same spot. Constantly have to train it to try to get it to open in the right place. Was trying to use code::blocks and no matter what it kept sending dialogs on the 1st monitor instead of the primary. Overall the whole multi monitor support in all OSes seems to be very broken when it comes to window/dialog placement and it's super annoying having to constantly move them to the right place. It's *slightly* better in Linux but even Linux mostly fails at it. There are even settings in KDE to force windows on the proper monitor but even then that does not always work. The simplest way to do it would be if it just opened on whatever monitor the cursor is on, then it most likely means that's the monitor you launched from.It's even more annoying when the second monitor might be turned off because you're just using the computer real quick, and you go to launch something like the browser and of course it ends up on the one that's off, almost every time.But long story short, been wanting to go 4k for this reason alone, have one single monitor with as much real estate as 4 without the hassle of constantly having to fight with where windows/dialogs end up.