Electronics from a North Korean manufacturer - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2017, 11:51:27 pm
content: I thought I would throw this out there for discussion..the manufacturer is called Glocom and they (had?) a web site that sells military radio equipment which claims to be from Malaysia - but its really from North Korea!and it violates UN sanctions. It appears that the equipment is actually manufactured in NK.There is no stranger place in the world than North Korea.UN Report PDF - (converted on the fly from Word)http://www.un.org/ga/search/view_doc.asp?symbol=S/2017/150https://martinplaut.wordpress.com/2017/04/01/us-places-eritrea-under-fresh-sanctions-for-military-deal-with-north-korea/http://38north.org/2017/03/aberger031617http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-northkorea-malaysia-arms-insight-idUKKBN1650YGhttps://documents-dds-ny.un.org/doc/UNDOC/GEN/N16/010/96/DOC/N1601096.DOCX(lots of other stuff in here too)https://documents-dds-ny.un.org/doc/UNDOC/GEN/N17/024/94/DOC/N1702494.DOChttps://www.un.org/sc/suborg/en/sanctions/1718/panel_experts/work_mandateWhy does this matter?yes, nukes, chemical weapons, all that- but there is an ongoing human rights tragedy there also.http://www.ohchr.org/EN/HRBodies/HRC/CoIDPRK/Pages/PublicHearings.aspxThis is a video that concatenates small bits of testimony from many of the hearings-http://webtv.un.org/meetings-events/human-rights-council/commissions-of-inquiry-hearings/watch/human-rights-in-north-korea-excerpts-from-the-public-hearings-of-the-commission-of-inquiry-23mins/3339582047001----A Venezuelan poet who came to the DPRK in the 80s was arrested and imprisoned for several years and finally was released after intercession from Romanian dictator Nicolai Ceausescu, a friend of Kim Il Sung'sHere is his account of his ordeal.https://www.amnesty.org/download/Documents/204000/asa240021979en.pdfThis is a web site on human rights in North Koreahttp://eng.nkhumanrights.or.krThis is a summary of their political prison camps which you can see on Google Earth. a history which goes back quite a while, many of them have been closed but several are still clearly operating.https://web.archive.org/web/20120426032452/http://nkdb.org/bbs1/data/publication/Survey_Report_on_Political_Prisoners_Camp_in_North_Korea_.pdf

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2017, 12:23:09 am
content: Apart from all that human rights BS, how do you know where it is manufactured?

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2017, 12:57:03 am
content: There is material in the linked UN report on that. I will extract it and add it to the story.Also, as far as whether they really came from DPRK, they definitely do. Ive seen these radios - especially the handhelds, in pictures in their news. (Typically being used by Kim Jong Eun's personal guard force)I'd been trying to figure out where they came from and what frequencies they covered for awhile.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2017, 01:07:13 am
content: It would be interesting to have a piece of equipment from there, it's not something I've ever had. Strange place indeed, it has always seemed to me like a parody of a nation.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2017, 01:13:52 am
content: Quote from: james_s on April 03, 2017, 01:07:13 amIf they indeed have capability to produce military equipment that is of any interest for any other nations, they are pretty far as a nation, I would say.It would be interesting to see what's inside. If they made it from NK made parts, then good for them, they are ahead of most other countries. If that is made from smuggled parts, then it is something to investigate.As far as human rights go, not every nation has the same idea of what they are. There is no need to impulsively impose your western views on them. If you disagree with what they are doing - don't have any business with them, which is exactly what happens.The need to overturn governments comes from a position of fear - they have nukes, and apparently capability to make marketable radio equipment. I'd be worried too

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2017, 01:21:07 am
content: I suspect anything they make is full of Chinese parts. You can bet there is a black market flow of parts and equipment from China.

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2017, 01:30:12 am
content: Found this -http://glocom-corp.com/index.phpLots of military products, look fairly sophisticated.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2017, 01:35:58 am
content: This obviously contains a chip from Infineonhttp://glocom-corp.com/index.php?page=product&p_id=16

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2017, 01:38:17 am
content: And also, thishttp://glocom-corp.com/index.php?page=product&p_id=20and other related products, is basically thishttps://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/forget-iot-here-comes-the-iobt/

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2017, 01:45:41 am
content: Here's a board from their "GP-2000 Ultra High Speed Parallel Processor"I downloaded the image to examine it - are those Altera chips on that? Can't quite tell.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2017, 01:47:58 am
content: The description says "Main processor FPGA GL2S15F484", but chips are clearly AlteraCyclone. Correction - Stratix V. Here is a picturehttp://www.ebay.com/itm/5SGXEAF45NESAB-ALTERA-STRATIX-V-BGA-ADDAM1207A-/360890587975It actually is Stratix II. The original Atera part number is EP2S15F484. So it is easy as that to make a new FPGAAll you need is technology to change 2 letters in the name

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2017, 02:03:11 am
content: It looks like they maybe have a new radio, the one with the blue display,I don't think those are live pictures of the actual units, they look like renderings and there likely is a reason for that, for example, suppose that was the real radio, could anybody identify the source of the display? Probably somebody could.If they get their hardware from some reputable company and they get notified, they should cut them off, because they are an international pariah state.For example, they use their electronics to hunt down innocent people who are using Chinese cell phones (North Korea is fairly small and some portions of it are close enough to the border for Chinese cell phones to work).In that case people sometimes use them and if they get caught if they don't have enough money for a bribe, they can be imprisoned and executed. It came out (in 2008) that they were using a fairly sophisticated Rhode and Schwartz portable cell phone radiolocation system to locate people.. I'm not saying that they bought it direct from the manufacturer but somehow they got it. And its horrible what happens when they catch people.Also, in some of their news broadcasts they showed Kim Jong Un on top of mountains watching military exercises.. in the pictures you could plainly see radiolocation antennas.. it didnt look like a homebrew system it looked like a commercial system.With sanctions companies that knowingly sell to them really should be notified and they should be engaged in a discussion so that it can be stopped and if they dont cooperate they should get sanctioned.While the government spends money on all this expensive equipment a substantial number of people there are literally starving or close to it. Not like in the late 90s when perhaps as many as three million people starved to death, but it is still happening..

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2017, 02:07:31 am
content: Quote from: cdev on April 03, 2017, 02:03:11 amThey obviously don't buy direct. There is no one to cut off. Altera did not sell them those chips, they got them from a black market.Sucks, but not much you can do without imposing too many limits on legitimate buyers.

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2017, 02:25:42 am
content: Cdev your empathy for poor nork people is very touching but try warching less propaganda in the evenings.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2017, 02:45:54 am
content: The stories aren't propaganda, they are way too consistent to be plus you can see the places they are talking about on Google Earth. I have a plugin that lets be get the place names - if it was propaganda it wouldnt be so consistent that its actually quite rewarding surfing the accounts cross referencing them with real places and you come up with all sorts of stuff. If you can call figuring out the logistics of really horrible atrocity rewarding.A significant number of NK escapees have been beaten and have scars and badly set broken bones, etc. You couldnt make that up. Nor could you make up all the burial mounds from the late 90s, also its a matter of historical record that Kim Jong Il was buying expensive Mig-29 jets at the same time. Each jet cost around the same amount as the rice would have to save about the same number of peoples lives that died in Hiroshima. So it was like he was nuking his own cities by starvation.Also, I used to have a friend from work who had grown up in Dandong, China right across the river from the DPRK, so close he could hear them shooting at people who were trying to cross the river from his house.This was in the 1990s when it was already pretty bad. he went away to college but his family was still there. I trust his account, he wasnt North Korean he was Chinese. He said they were starving to death and people were so emaciated they looked like skeletons. People would die trying to cross the river in the winter all the time..It they get caught China sends them back. It should stop doing that. Once in awhile they let people transit through. If they would just let the poor people go to South Korea that would be a major accomplishment.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2017, 02:49:27 am
content: Quote from: cdev on April 03, 2017, 02:45:54 amIs there a way to mix in 9/11 here somehow? And Titanic accident as well.Sometimes you need to violate "human rights" to defend the country. And they don't have a whole lot of resources and the world is very hostile towards them, especially neighboring countries (SK), which just want their territory, so they publish all those reports.I'm not saying that NK does not have problems, but they are not that much worse than any other country with bit population poverty levels.Soviet Union was portrayed by the US as the most horrific place on Earth, but general public in the USSR did not really mind living there and were doing just fine.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2017, 02:57:42 am
content: I don't think anybody wants the huge problems associated with NK now, plus they have no, or very little oil.There is one defector I spoke with who runs a laundromat now he lives in a big west coast city, and the situation he went through was really horrible, he was actually in two prison camps. He had been in their secret police.Ex -USSR$ was nothing like it was under stalin after maybe the 70s and 80s it was no worse than prisons here. The

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2017, 03:00:28 am
content: Quote from: cdev on April 03, 2017, 02:57:42 amYou are missing the point. Nobody goes to a secret police if they are not doing anything "bad". Where "bad" is defined by the regime. And if you do something bad, those are the consequences in that specific place. Everyone knows the rules, play by them, and you will be fine.Again, you are trying to impose your understanding of "freedom" to a completely independent nation. US should knock it off and mind its own business.Now, if you think you deserve better as a citizen, tough luck. I personally think I deserve to be rich like Jeff Bezos. Where are whiny reports on how poor and mistreated I am?PS: And good for that guy, he found a better place to live.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2017, 03:13:35 am
content: He did.. now he runs his own business, a pretty easy one he just has to keep his machines happy.

author: Dago
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2017, 07:14:54 am
content: Quote from: ataradov on April 03, 2017, 02:49:27 amAnd if they did mind, they got executed or sent to a prison camp. Great way to keep the general populace happy!

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2017, 07:18:34 am
content: Quote from: Dago on April 03, 2017, 07:14:54 amIf they did mind and acted on it, violating the law, they would be prosecuted according to the law. How is this different from any other country? You violate the law -> you go to prison.If you are an activist and want your point to be heard, you need to accept that there will be consequences. That's why Assange and Snowden are sitting in small rooms in weird countries right now. How did disagreeing with local laws worked out for them in a western world?

author: Dago
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2017, 07:38:39 am
content: Quote from: ataradov on April 03, 2017, 07:18:34 amDefinitely I think it is fair for someone to go to a gulag without a trial (half of political prisoners were imprisoned without a trial) or most cases being investigated by the secret police (essentially the same thing as no trial or "prosecution" as you said) for crimes such as; being a relative of someone, telling a joke about a government official, being late to work etc...

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2017, 07:42:47 am
content: Quote from: Dago on April 03, 2017, 07:38:39 amThat's not up to you do decide how other countries should operate. Nobody got imprisoned or sent to gulag without a reason. Whether this reason was severe enough or not - it is up to the prosecution. Why do you think that norms established in your country are better than the others?If you don't like this, you are free to leave the country under certain conditions (one of which, is having a country to take you). A lot of creative people (poets and such) did, and were just fine.If you want to fight the system - expect to be sent to gulag.

author: Dago
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2017, 08:05:07 am
content: Quote from: ataradov on April 03, 2017, 07:42:47 amSo people were/are completely free to move away from soviet union and north korea? Wow I've been misinformed by western propaganda I guess.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2017, 08:09:11 am
content: Quote from: Dago on April 03, 2017, 08:05:07 amI don't know about NK.You could freely leave Soviet Union, but you had to have a country wanting to take you. This never happened for general public, but it happened all the time for poets, actors, painters, etc. Basically famous people with something to contribute to the culture of the receiving country. This is not ideal, of course, but if you let everyone move freely, they will all move to more developed countries, forgetting the fact that those countries are developed possibly because all those people are not there.Look at the recent European refugee crisis. Somehow those people decided to skip less developed, but still pretty free countries (like Romania) and went straight to Germany and Sweden. They automatically felt entitled to do that, somehow.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2017, 08:16:29 am
content: One example that comes to mind, is my favorite poet Joseph Brodsky (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Brodsky). Quote from Wiki:QuoteAlso, note his status - Stateless (1972–1977). You did not have to have another citizenship, as long as some other country is willing to take you, you are free to go.PS: Just to be clear, he was on trial and in labor camps, but that was at the time, when authorities expected that he could be changed.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 03, 2017, 08:20:42 am
content: Sure, sanctions and isolating the country from the rest of the world make living conditions of the people in North Korea "better" and more democratic, that is what you are concerned for, rrright? Or, just maybe, it's the same as with animals. You push it to the corner with no escape, and it will attack violently.

author: Dago
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2017, 08:20:56 am
content: Quote from: ataradov on April 03, 2017, 08:16:29 amI don't know where are you basing your claims that people were free to leave SU (other than some single famous guy) "Emigration and any travel abroad were not allowed without an explicit permission from the government. People who were not allowed to leave the country and campaigned for their right to leave in the 1970s were known as "refuseniks". According to the Soviet Criminal Code, a refusal to return from abroad was treason, punishable by imprisonment for a term of 10–15 years, or death with confiscation of property."

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2017, 08:27:03 am
content: Quote from: Dago on April 03, 2017, 08:20:56 amIf you could convince another country to take you, you could obtain that permission. Technically this applies to anyone, but not anyone could convince to take them. This excludes scientists, and other people with access to secrets, of course.So realistically this luxury was only in hands of famous or at least well known people.But I don't see how this is different from modern world. Can citizens of free Germany permanently move to free Norway? Not without approval of the receiving country. And Germany will not let you out, unless you have a valid visa.EDIT: I'm not saying that it was easy. I'm just saying that it was possible, if you chose to pursue this path. It is way-way harder to get away from strict regimes like SU or NK, for sure.EDIT2: Today's Russia is free, and people are free to leave without prosecution, but, surprise-surprise, they still can't, since there is still no place to go, even if they don't like conditions or authorities. And I don't see this being any different if NK became democratic overnight. Democracy does not grow more rice.Countries need to evolve on their own path. Sooner or later people of NK will organize and overthrow their government, if they really don't like it. A lot of them may be disappointed as the result.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2017, 08:32:25 am
content: Quote from: wraper on April 03, 2017, 08:20:42 amI think it is pretty clear that nobody wants to "free the people". Everybody wants to grab the land, in a region, where it is at a premium.

author: SingedFingers
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2017, 08:54:05 am
content: Also NK is chock full of mineral resources.If you look at the Eastern Bloc, they eventually produced their own electronic components including at least LSI ICs and built their own VAX and mainframe clones eventually. VEB Robotron, Tesla etc being the canonical examples.However NK is just a place where there is cheaper labour because the Chinese want real money these days. That's where this crap comes from.

author: borjam
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 03, 2017, 09:08:53 am
content: Quote from: ataradov on April 03, 2017, 08:27:03 amExcuse me?I live in another European country, Spain, and being part of the EU many of our laws are alike. The prerequisite to leave the country ¡s to have a valid passport. The passport is a document that is issued to any citizen upon application, unless there is any serious judiciary issue (actual convictior o being subject to investigation for fairly serious criminal issues).I don´t need any kind of permission from my government to leave the country.As someone said, in a totalitarian system you can do only what is explicitly allowed. In a regime of freedom you can do whatever is not explicitly forbidden, which is quite a difference.

author: Nusa
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2017, 09:11:58 am
content: Quote from: ataradov on April 03, 2017, 08:27:03 amI think you picked a bad example there, as the general answer would seem to be "yes" for citizens of those countries. For much of Europe, the citizens are now able to move almost as freely as we move between states in the USA. Yet they're still different countries.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizens%E2%80%99_Rights_Directive

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2017, 09:12:11 am
content: Quote from: borjam on April 03, 2017, 09:08:53 amFor 90 days in a year? I may be wrong here, but don't you still need some sort of permission to work and take permanent residence in another EU country?And anyway, I picked Norway just for that reason - it is not a member of the EU.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2017, 09:14:58 am
content: Quote from: Nusa on April 03, 2017, 09:11:58 amIt appears so:QuoteBut what constitutes an "undue burden"?Anyway, change this example to US and Germany. The idea is still the same.And even with Norway, it is the case only since 2010. Fairly recent addition.

author: borjam
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 03, 2017, 09:20:40 am
content: Quote from: ataradov on April 03, 2017, 09:12:11 amDepending on the destination country, I would need permission from the destination country, but not from my own one. If I want to move to Germany I can just do it. No hassles.QuoteNot the best example, as Norway is more than a half member state. They are not full members but there are mutual agreements of free circulation of trades and citizens, and they even apply lots of EU directives to their law.Let's say I want to move to USA, which is a better example. I need a passport (in EU countries the passport is a right, not a privilege), period. Of course I need permission from the US authorities, but that's not my government's business. From my country's point of view it's the same if I travel to the US as a tourist or for permanent residency.When settling abroad it's advisable to register yourself at the local embassy/consulate, but it's mostly for your own benefit in case any issues arise.

author: razberik
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2017, 09:23:27 am
content: Quote from: ataradov on April 03, 2017, 07:42:47 amYes, many people got.Quote from: ataradov on April 03, 2017, 08:09:11 amNo, you couldn't. Even if you received acceptance by another country.Quote from: borjam on April 03, 2017, 09:20:40 amHeh, yes, in former communist Czechoslovakia, it was common practice to confiscate citizen's passport. There was also a law for "non-authorized country leaving". Those brave who left to refugee camps in Austria e.g., their relatives (uncles, parents, etc.) were punished because only being relatives to them.But hey, yes, it was perfectly correct in respect to laws.

author: Alex Nikitin
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2017, 09:26:48 am
content: Quote from: ataradov on April 03, 2017, 08:09:11 amYou obviously don't have a first-hand experience of the Soviet Union. You had to get a permission even to move from one place to another inside the country. If you even just mentioned to someone that you think about leaving the USSR, you would be (if you are reasonably lucky) blacklisted and if you are not so lucky, could lose your job and even freedom (whatever was left of it there).CheersAlex

author: borjam
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 03, 2017, 09:32:51 am
content: Quote from: ataradov on April 03, 2017, 08:09:11 amSo nobody was shot when trying to cross to Western Europe. Interesting.I have know several citizens from Eastern countries during the Cold War (some are friends of mine actually!) and theyescaped.QuoteRomanians are not refugees. They are citizens of an EU member state and they can move freely. British retired citizens who come to live to the sunny Spanish seaside are not refugees either, even though they are fleeing the English weather.Refugees are coming from conflict areas like Syria which are not members of the EU.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2017, 09:35:46 am
content: Quote from: borjam on April 03, 2017, 09:32:51 amI never said that. But those Syrian refugees decided not to stay in Romania, and kept on moving to Germany, and other better places. They turned from needy to picky very quick.

author: borjam
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 03, 2017, 09:37:38 am
content: Quote from: ataradov on April 03, 2017, 07:18:34 amBeing "law" doesn't mean being "just". In History, recent History and even nowadays, there are plenty of examples of clearly unjust laws.Is it my western prejudice? Maybe. But not all laws are just. Not at all.

author: Alex Nikitin
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2017, 09:40:33 am
content: Quote from: razberik on April 03, 2017, 09:23:27 amAh,laws. In the Soviet Union laws were only for show and the government's convenience. As the saying goes "If there is a person, there is always a suitable law to imprison him".CheersAlex

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2017, 09:40:45 am
content: Quote from: borjam on April 03, 2017, 09:37:38 amDon't get me wrong, I feel the same way. But I don't claim that I know which laws are good, and which laws are bad.

author: Alex Nikitin
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2017, 09:43:08 am
content: Quote from: ataradov on April 03, 2017, 09:40:45 amI can only wish you may never need to know that.CheersAlex

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2017, 09:44:01 am
content: Quote from: Alex Nikitin on April 03, 2017, 09:40:33 amIt goes both ways. If you know how to work the system, you could get things done. All those people that formed Brighton Beach Jewish/Ukranian/Russain settlement immigrated perfectly legally.I did not say that it was ever guaranteed or easy, but it was possible.Same goes for movement within the country. You just needed to know the right people where you want to be, and you will be there.

author: Alex Nikitin
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2017, 09:46:11 am
content: Quote from: ataradov on April 03, 2017, 09:44:01 amYou have no idea what you are talking about.CheersAlex

author: borjam
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 03, 2017, 09:48:41 am
content: Quote from: ataradov on April 03, 2017, 09:44:01 amWhich is quite insane!I remember a silly piece of news from two months ago or so. Two British friends who lived in different cities wanted to meet, and trains there are very expensive. Turns out it was cheaper for them to buy plane tickets to Malaga, Spain, and meet at the airport.Even though the UK is not part of the Schengen agreement it's a trivial matter.

author: Alex Nikitin
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2017, 09:58:38 am
content: The worst thing about the USSR I remember (and still shivering even now from that memory) is not even the essential absence of freedom or a hardship, but the necessity to tell various lies 90% of the time. To tell lies is against the human nature, to tell lies most of the time is to destroy that nature in a person.CheersAlex

author: borjam
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 03, 2017, 10:24:59 am
content: Quote from: janoc on April 03, 2017, 10:07:18 amThat reminds me the insane propaganda I loved to listen from the Eastern block countries. They weren't jammed here (hint, hint, nudge nudge!) and it was perfectly legal here to listen to their nonsense about "Spontaneous demonstrations of joy by peasants and miners at the Red Square".It was so ridiculous (I've always found propaganda extremely amusing) that they used to tweak reality in different ways depending on the target audience. So-called news intended for Latin America were much more radical than the same "news" targetted for audiences in Spain.

author: razberik
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2017, 10:36:26 am
content: Some very lucky people got permission to visit western countries. But even then they have to put some of their family member as a hostage in country to avoid emigration attempts.One my friend's father's brother escaped to austrian refugee camp in Wien in 80's and got acceptance by Australia. When czechoslovakian authorities got this information, friend's father was punished by relocating him to town which he hated. No family, no friends, stranger in a strange land.My mother was the hostage when her family got permission to travel to France in 70's. I don't know exactly how my grandfather got the permission, but perhaps the fact he was extremely pragmatic and he entered the communist party for economical reasons. He was some leader of sport club and he had to have some marx-leninism lessons. In fact it was a cigarette smoking lesson. Luckily authorities never knew this fact.QuoteYes. In some period, punishments for transmitter/receiver possession were much more higher than for possession of firearms. Very true story I was told by an old man.

author: Assafl
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2017, 11:20:26 am
content: Quote from: Alex Nikitin on April 03, 2017, 09:58:38 amOutstandingly vivid and clear thought. Friends of mine who were trying to explain why they hated the USSR (to the extent they even hated visiting family) failed to find such a empathy inducing concept: being forced to lie 90% of the time.The idea that you lie always and to everyone is an outstanding burden. That you cannot discuss things that bug or interest you, cannot critique and cannot express thoughts is horrendous.On the flip side (if there is one), this constant need to lie and find indirect ways to discuss stuff makes for unusually compelling literature, poetry and cinema. Animation (and other "childish" techniques) were also a favored way for critiquing government (such as Jiri Trnka "the Hand" and many other such films).

author: borjam
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 03, 2017, 11:30:04 am
content: Quote from: Assafl on April 03, 2017, 11:20:26 amThat's so true!My country was under a military dictatorship from 1936 to 1975. Some of the very best movies ever produced in Spain come from one director, Luis G. Berlanga, and his movies from that period aren't short of masterpieces. Moreover, all of them heavily criticized the regime right under the noses of the censors, who themselves became ridiculed by their own blindness. As long as you didn't show a cleavage you were fine! They were utterly unable to notice what was going on.For anyone curious about Spanish cinema, the movies I am mentioning are "El Verdugo, "Bienvenido Mr. Marshall", "Calabuch", "Plácido" and "Los Jueves, Milagro".Although these movies can be really alien to someone not familiar with Spanish culture. And I'm not meaning just about the language issues.

author: KE5FX
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2017, 09:37:25 pm
content: Quote from: Bud on April 03, 2017, 02:25:42 amThis must be some of that "alt-truth" I keep hearing about. Speaking of stuff to do in the evening:I guess it's a paradise for astronomers. Some of the last dark sky left on Earth.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2017, 10:04:09 pm
content: Quote from: ataradov on April 03, 2017, 09:12:11 amYes, you are wrong. Even though Norway is not a member of the EU. It participates in the single market and Schengen Agreement, which means open boarders (no passport checks!) with other EU countries and allowing other EU citizens to live there indefinitely.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2017, 10:23:19 pm
content: Quote from: Alex Nikitin onTodayat 03:58:38>The worst thing about the USSR I remember (and still shivering even now from that memory) is not even the essential absence of freedom or a hardship, but the necessity to tell various lies 90% of the time. To tell lies is against the human nature, to tell lies most of the time is to destroy that nature in a person.CheersAlexOther counties are falling into the web of lies trap too. Example: healthcare situation in the US as described by the US media now has NO resemblance to what's really going on - which is all about the WTO and various mid to late 90s era trade instruments that lock the country in to really horrible (but profitable) traps irreversibly. That was also perhaps behind Brexit- as its my understanding a politician lied about the cause of NHS defunding - same deal slightly different set of conditions.

author: MarkS
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 04, 2017, 07:07:15 am
content: Quote from: ataradov on April 03, 2017, 07:18:34 amThere can be immoral laws. An evil regime, like those seen in the former Soviet union, North Korea, and the like, impose laws that are designed to oppress their citizenry. Most of these laws are draconian, excessive in quantity, difficult to follow and result in extremely harsh penalties, far outpacing the actual offense (death for crossing a wall, anyone?). Add to that a general disdain for anyone breaking the law, to the point of reducing their humanity to subhuman, and you get prisons/prison camps that are just a couple of notches above that of Nazi Germany's (which, as noted above, were fully compliant with German laws at the time). These are not regimes and systems of laws to defend.When I hear from NK prison camp escapees that were born in the camp, grew up in the camp and were so indoctrinated by the regime that they alerted the guards to offenses carried out by their parents, leading to their parents death, I find it hard to defend North Korean "rule of law".Here is an example, albeit a pretty tame one, of former Soviet "laws". This song is absurd and I ridiculed it until I found out the reasons behind it. The original folk song was about farming or something very mundane and tame and had actual lyrics, but had certain elements that alerted Soviet censors. After multiple revisions, all of which failed to pass review, he was forced to create this abomination:But, hey... Laws, right?

author: borjam
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 04, 2017, 07:53:11 am
content: Quote from: MarkS on April 04, 2017, 07:07:15 amTo most of us, who have been born in free or reasonably free regimes (well, I was born in a military dictatorship but the dictator died when I was 5) the notion of an evil regime is somewhat alien. Sometimes we tend to be suspicious of information coming from those regimes dismissing it as propaganda. After all, the wealthy owners of newspapers surely don't like those regimes and they have vested interests on overturning them, right?It helps to read some History. For example, what was going on before World War II. How some British politicians believed in Hitler's reassurance that they wouldn't invade other European terrotories beside the Sudeten. I am sure that newspapers from that time will show op-ed articles defending Hitler, saying that, well, he wasn't so bad, it was impossible for all that propaganda to be true. And I am pretty sure that not all of those articles were written with deception in mind, but by skeptic, well meaning people.

author: MarkS
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 04, 2017, 08:15:12 am
content: Quote from: borjam on April 04, 2017, 07:53:11 amPart of it is an unwillingness to accept that such atrocities could happen. How could six million Jews be killed in labor camps during the Nazi reign? How can entire families, multiple generations deep, be imprisoned in North Korean camps? Surely no one ever was really shot and killed for trying to cross the Berlin wall, right?! We look at our insulted and relatively stress-free lives and cannot fathom that the entire planet is not the same. Not only is it NOT the same, but the differences are not as small as, say, the differences in freedom of speech enjoyed in the U.S. versus the comparative lack seen in the U.K (I can go to jail for criticizing Islam in the U.K.? Seriously?!). We're talking about people imprisoned and/or killed for not celebrating the leader's birthday at a level found satisfactory. Hard to comprehend.

author: borjam
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 04, 2017, 08:21:27 am
content: Quote from: MarkS on April 04, 2017, 08:15:12 amThe UK has rather particular libel laws that have been a nightmare for many journalists. On the other hand, religions (not just Islam) enjoy very specific legal protection in other European countries. In Spain, offending any religius belief is a criminal offense. Of course I don'tthink religion has any merits to enjoy such a special status, but sadly most people doesn't agree with me. Sigh.But, you see, now you begin to hear people saying that the nazis surely weren't that bad, that surely all the "jewish thing" was propaganda because, well, History is written by the victors after all, and the real war criminals were the British, bombing Dresden and other cities to ashes.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2017, 09:23:48 am
content: Quote from: MarkS on April 04, 2017, 08:15:12 amNo, that's not true. It's perfectly legal to criticise Islam in the UK. What is illegal is hate speech, so advocating things such as killing all Muslims is illegal.

author: MarkS
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 04, 2017, 10:45:31 am
content: Quote from: Hero999 on April 04, 2017, 09:23:48 amTry again:http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2614834/Arrested-quoting-Winston-Churchill-European-election-candidate-accused-religious-racial-harassment-repeats-wartime-prime-ministers-words-Islam-campaign-speech.htmlMy point was that there are differences in freedoms around the world, some small differences like this, but many far larger. It's sometimes difficult in our insulated lives to fathom that even the small differences exist, much less the atrocities seen in parts of the world. I had a hard time believing that the U.K. restricted speech, so much so that I had to Google the laws. Some people simply cannot accept the truth of what is going on in North Korea and the like. It is more than their minds can handle.

author: borjam
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 04, 2017, 10:57:01 am
content: Quote from: MarkS on April 04, 2017, 10:45:31 amBe careful with the Daily Mail. One of these days they are probably announcing that the Royal Navy is ready to take on Spain because of our plans to invade Gibraltar. They are crazy.it is true that you can be dragged to court on a very weak basis, though. That's true of the UK (insane libel law as far as I know), Spain (in our particular case, offense to a religious belief is explicitly listed as anoffense in criminal law) and even the US.Note that I am no lawyer, but I have only heard of a country with reasonable protections about abuses of the judicial system: Germany.I'm not sure how many of you remeber the SCO/Linux wars, when SCO went scaremonging and demanding payments from Linux users citing unauthorized use of never disclosed patents in never shown parts of the Linux code.Some companies paid immediately because, well, court can be outrageously expensive even if you are acquited. And Germany was an exception. SCO received something like this: "Dear SCO, I am a German judge. Either you show me your evidences immediately or you withdraw your proceedings asap. Failing to show evidence is a criminal offense here". Know what? SCO withdrew everyting in Germany imemdiately. Turns out that dragging someone to court without a solid case, something done routinely all over whe world, can be a criminal offsense in Germany.

author: Nusa
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2017, 11:07:50 am
content: It's not a case of being unable to accept it, it's a case of not knowing what to do about it. And talking about it with emotionally charged vocabulary instead of descriptive vocabulary is not helpful.And in the case of my own country, I find it hard to climb on a moral high horse while we maintain our own political prison where people are kept forever without due process. I speak of Guantanamo. Never mind that some of those people were even tortured for information. Obama tried to get rid of it, Trump has promised to load it up with "bad people".

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2017, 01:16:03 pm
content: Quote from: MarkS on April 04, 2017, 10:45:31 amSo what he was arrested? Plenty of people are arrested then later on proven innocent.Was he charged? And if so, was he successfully prosecuted?That article doesn't give the full story.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2017, 01:52:13 pm
content: Anybody who wants a generally well researched book on all the world's religions and what they really taught Huston Smith wrote a very good book on them which seems above all the politics and mutual mistrust.There are common threads that run through all of them like the so called "Golden Rule". I now think of "do unto others as you would have them do unto you" as a sort of recipe for species survival. I think we should also be ready to treat self aware AI with respect once we develop it. The mindset we have today wont allow that and it seeks to exploit the most possible from everybody and every transaction, and thats like a recipe for species self destruction, so we need to move beyond it.I think we are coming to a important shift where automation will force us to evolve beyond materialism and corporatism. (If we want to continue without destroying ourselves and our little fragile planet) We need to do this soon. Why?-------------Short term we need tocarve out policy spacefrom these deals which are like an unseen hand making all bad policy irreversible..

author: rollatorwieltje
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 04, 2017, 02:13:05 pm
content: Quote from: Hero999 on April 04, 2017, 01:16:03 pmA 5 second google shows he was arrested for not following a police order to move, and investigated for hate speech. The charges were dropped pretty much immediately.The Daily Mail showing a full story, that would have been newsworthy.Anyway, talking about products from North Korea...Apparently our Dutch Railways customVIRM train setswere built there?

author: borjam
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 04, 2017, 02:45:23 pm
content: Quote from: rollatorwieltje on April 04, 2017, 02:13:05 pmSo Evil Capitalist Netherlands stole their trains or outsourced their manufacture to NK!!

author: MarkS
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 04, 2017, 02:49:16 pm
content: Quote from: Hero999 on April 04, 2017, 01:16:03 pmHe was arrested and faced charges for quoting Churchill. That should cause chills to run down your spine. He. Quoted. Churchill. Someone got offended and called the police. The police felt there was enough to arrest him and he was arrested on, among other charges, suspicion of religious/racial harassment - FOR QUOTING CHURCHILL. <- MUST be emphasized! The charged were dropped. Great! He was ARRESTED for quoting Churchill! Let that sink in. I'm an American and I understand the importance of what Churchill did for England - heck, all of Europe. It would be like me getting arrested for quoting Lincoln. Any law that allows for that in a civilized society is an abomination to justice and cannot be defended. It is untenable and utterly abominable.Anyway, my point was to highlight a relatively small difference in laws between countries that would cause disbelief (it did for me!) in order to illustrate the issue with far larger differences in governments and laws and the difficulty accepting those differences, not to attack the U.K. or its laws.Quote from: Nusa on April 04, 2017, 11:07:50 amFor many, it is a refusal to accept that it happened/is happening. We see this all the time. Holocaust deniers, people claiming the government was responsible for 9/11 and the Sandyhook massacre,and people like ataradov who not only cannot accept the truth, but go so far as to defend the people responsible. It isn't a matter of not knowing what to do about a situation if you refuse to believe the situation even exists.Quote from: Nusa on April 04, 2017, 11:07:50 amI'm with you there. I have no problem filling it with "bad people", but do so through the courts and treat them humanly. If they cannot be convicted, they need to be freed. This is a black eye for our country.

author: borjam
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 04, 2017, 03:08:30 pm
content: Quote from: MarkS on April 04, 2017, 02:49:16 pmI understand of course, although the Daily Mail is not exactly reliable. I don't rely on Fox News nor Russian Times to find out what's going on in the USAAlso, Police and even judges can do outrageously stupid things. One of the most stupid arrests happened in Spain last year. Read on.https://www.nytimes.com/2016/02/25/world/europe/spain-europe-protest-free-speech.htmlYes, it's surreal. It so surreal that even Fox and Breitbart published it correctly.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2017, 04:56:37 pm
content: While I tend to agree with Ataradov that I (and my country) have no right to impose my idea of proper government on another country, I certainly have a right to an opinion about other countries governance. Also the right to back up that opinion by avoiding economic support of that government through purchase of that product or sales to those producers. My personal tiny economic impact is of no consequence to anyone, but a flood of tiny impacts "might" make a difference. And I would have no moral concerns about that level of coercion.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 05, 2017, 09:31:54 am
content: Quote from: vk6zgo on April 05, 2017, 08:15:52 amThat has a strange flavour. You make Churchill sound like a poor boy made good. He was born into one of the richest and most powerful families in England. His family could get him pretty much whatever he wanted.

author: Alex Nikitin
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 05, 2017, 11:04:43 am
content: Quote from: Assafl on April 05, 2017, 10:42:03 amNothing new or unique there IMHO -allthese practices you've listed were in place in the Soviet Union, only with some locality/cultural/historical variations, and somewhat softened/diluted by a traditional Russian laziness. NK only faithfully copies the methods of Lenin and Stalin.CheersAlex

author: Assafl
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 05, 2017, 02:53:09 pm
content: Quote from: Alex Nikitin on April 05, 2017, 11:04:43 amI get your point. The ideas came from Lenin and Stalin (and Beria) - while NK and the DDR implemented them with German and Korean competence while the Russians also had some fun drinking Vodka.It is like Pol Pot learning Socialism in France, smoking Galuoises and Gitanes in the Café shop - and going back to implement what he thought he learned, with a Central Asia dogmatic approach murdering millions of Cambodians (for wearing glasses).

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2017, 12:14:05 am
content: These last three responses indicate the difficulty of getting along in the world. The writers of them all believe fervently in their truth. And I believe there are flaws in all of their visions. And truth in all of them.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2017, 01:51:40 am
content: Quote from: coppice on April 05, 2017, 09:31:54 amNot really.There were limits to what riches could buy you.As a serving officer, he was subject to Military discipline, & the Commander of the British force in Sudan said "no".To others, that would have been an end to it.Churchill, however, with the resolution & audacity which was to serve him well in a better cause many years later, made an "end run" around the formidable Kitchener.These characteristics from time to time got him into strife with his Parliamentary colleagues in the inter-war period.As previously noted, outside that forum, he didn't always get his way, backing down when going "head to head" with the equally resolute Australian PM.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 06, 2017, 02:35:23 am
content: I just gave up trying to clean up this thread, it's now locked.Stick to electronics.