"Russians plunder $5M farm vehicles from Ukraine-to find they've been remotely d - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / projects

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 01, 2022, 07:16:52 pm
content: "Russians plunder $5M farm vehicles from Ukraine -- to find they've been remotely disabled"story on CNN.Well, thats what it says..the presumably electronics-related story by Olexsandr Fylyppov and Tim Lister, CNN says..So much for those demanding "owners" have a right to repair..huh? Things are funny that way..The story is athttps://www.cnn.com/2022/05/01/europe/russia-farm-vehicles-ukraine-disabled-melitopol-intl/index.html

author: Benta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 01, 2022, 07:34:52 pm
content: The "right to repair" doesn't really apply here.Modern agricultural machinery is so expensive that it's usually leased, either from a manufacturer subsidiary or an independent leasing company.They have every right to disable the machines, and apparently did that quickly.

author: eugene
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 01, 2022, 08:00:07 pm
content: Please be very careful that your comments are limited to technical matters and avoid politics entirely. Otherwise the thread will likely be closed.

author: Benta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 01, 2022, 08:06:42 pm
content: Quote from: eugene on May 01, 2022, 08:00:07 pmPoint taken, thanks. Modified.

author: bson
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 01, 2022, 09:14:10 pm
content: Too bad they weren't remotely detonated...

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 01, 2022, 09:17:37 pm
content: I would expect that somebody will find a way to re-enable them, I mean how hard can it really be?

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 01, 2022, 09:29:41 pm
content: The Russian terrorists working for the right to repair movement are already working on it! According to our news media. This really is the Golden Era of conspiracy theories.""When the invaders drove the stolen harvesters to Chechnya, they realized that they could not even turn them on, because the harvesters were locked remotely," the contact said.The equipment now appears to be languishing at a farm near Grozny. But the contact said that "it seems that the hijackers have found consultants in Russia who are trying to bypass the protection.""Even if they sell harvesters for spare parts, they will earn some money," the contact said."

author: Benta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 01, 2022, 10:08:15 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on May 01, 2022, 09:17:37 pmQuite hard, I'd say. The amount of computing power in modern harvesters etc. is considerable. And the immobilizers on par with modern cars.The diesels are not old-fashioned piston-pump-injection, but high pressure electronic injection types needing an ECU.They're more likely to be scavenged for spare parts.Interesting that they're in the vicinity of Grozny "the most destroyed city on Earth" according to the UN (after a friendly Russian visit).https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Grozny_(1999-2000)

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 01, 2022, 10:49:16 pm
content: Quote from: bson on May 01, 2022, 09:14:10 pmHow much control does the software have? Would a Stuxnet type attack be feasible?

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 01, 2022, 11:11:50 pm
content: Is it really the appropriate section?

author: CJay
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 01, 2022, 11:12:17 pm
content: Quote from: NiHaoMike on May 01, 2022, 10:49:16 pmClever enough that a remote OTA update could make it overrun and trash the engine but it is after all is said and done, a diesel engine which is a relatively small part of the overall cost of the machinery and not impossible to replace with something a lot simpler.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 01, 2022, 11:27:18 pm
content: Quote from: CJay on May 01, 2022, 11:12:17 pmI was thinking along the lines of detecting attempts to bypass the lockout and pretend to allow being bypassed, but then do something during use that results in catastrophic damage such as starting a fire.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 02, 2022, 12:04:11 am
content: QuoteAnd then get sued for damage by an innocent,or following the american lead,not so innocent , party.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 02, 2022, 02:05:11 am
content: Quote from: themadhippy on May 02, 2022, 12:04:11 amThere would definitely need to be safeguards to prevent it from getting deployed outside the target area. If the serial numbers of the stolen equipment are known, that can be checked so it accidentally making its way to other equipment shouldn't cause anything bad to happen. It could also check GPS although that could also make an easy way to disable it. Finally, it can pop up a maintenance or error message informing the user to discontinue use and call tech support.

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 02, 2022, 05:53:21 am
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on May 01, 2022, 11:11:50 pmProlly not. And there is already a thread about it in "general chat".I'm more interested in what this event means for legitimate owners of the same equipment.

author: Haenk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 02, 2022, 07:46:53 am
content: Quote from: Benta on May 01, 2022, 10:08:15 pmThere is likely much more technology implemented than in a standard car. I would not be surprised if there was GPS-based geofencing, plus you can't simply use electronics as spare parts. They very certainly have to be enabled by the manufacturer.Sure, you can take the tires and chassis parts and sell them, but those are very specific parts and a service technician might find out about those parts in the future.

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 02, 2022, 08:17:29 am
content: Service technicians in Chechnya won't ask questions about origin of those partsThe electronics will be a test of how seriously John Deere takes their DRM and how good the Russian hackers are. A few years ago some security company claimed that they are able to unlock iPhones seized by law enforcement, theoretically anything is possible.Failing that, there is an option of making replacement ECUs and maybe even cloning the hardware at that point to make more of the machines - wouldn't be the first time it happens in theUnionFederation

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 02, 2022, 09:41:00 am
content: It is certainly possible to reverse engineer and replace everything. But at some point it becomes more expensive than just buying the machines through proper channels. Remember that there will be much smaller economies of scale for the reverse engineered solution.Or, since that solution is politically impossible at the moment, buying machines from another vendor.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 02, 2022, 09:53:08 am
content: Just for a laugh: So Ukranian farming equipment is harder to steal than russian military equipment.

author: JPortici
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 02, 2022, 10:05:57 am
content: Quote from: Benta on May 01, 2022, 07:34:52 pmone client of ours had his new BWM remapped three times.Because apparently the car phones home at night time, firmware and map integrity checks, map being reverted to stockApparently it's in the lease contract so there is nothing you can do about it (and i don't think that privacy laws kicks in) and if you happen to buy a car you really need to read the fine print. I wonder if this will transfer over to the new owner when the car is soldTesla really paved the way for the future, naturally they could already do it for some years, they just needed someone who would be the first

author: CJay
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 02, 2022, 11:07:22 am
content: Quote from: JPortici on May 02, 2022, 10:05:57 amTelematics and 'phone home' technology is great (apparently, I'm not a fan) but the meatsacks involved in the management of it aren't (also not a fan)I had a company vehicle which had a telematics, I got dragged into head office and found myself on the receiving end of an absolute roasting from management and the HR department who'd been brought in to dismiss me for repeatedly driving in excess of speed limits (and by quite some margin).Problem was that when they provided the details of the 'offences' I was about to be dismissed for it turned out that they'd occurred months after the car had been handed back to fleet and resold to someone who turned out to be using it as a private hire taxi.

author: JPortici
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 02, 2022, 11:42:52 am
content: Quote from: CJay on May 02, 2022, 11:07:22 ambut that was probably retrofitted, like the black box insurance companies give you. Measure speed, gather position, g factor and when a collision is detected they call you. Great! awesome, i love it, i have a good discount on the insurance and it was actually of help when i needed to prove i was where i said i was.In this case that is a data link between the car and the manufacturer, active 24/7. Updates without you knowing (kind of like when you go to the dealer's service) and monitoring without you knowing. What prevents them from locking your vehichle because they think you did this or that modification, or did repairs without consent from the mothership?But you gave consent, well you were kind of forced to

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 02, 2022, 01:40:35 pm
content: Quote from: tszaboo on May 02, 2022, 09:53:08 amIt's American equipment and it's equally hard to use if you are the owner but don't have an authorized service center nearby when something breaks

author: robert.rozee
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 02, 2022, 01:57:21 pm
content: given the stolen equipment has GPS tracking built in, you could just send a drone to that exact location with a 'care package' for the thieves.cheers,rob :-)

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 02, 2022, 03:41:08 pm
content: I'm sure entire books could be written on various arguments as to who owns the stuff now. If its "Spoils of war." Once the WTO court decides, its settled forever. Couldn't make their test case clearer than this. Arent they slick!Or people would be demanding some kind of right of repair...This is how countries like the US and India and the UK among others are creating a whole world of new international law... toi get rid of all the old "rights" and laws they dont like..

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 02, 2022, 03:43:57 pm
content: If a service center is unauthorized, that probably simplfies the issue. Becoming authorized might cost millions of dollars. To keep out the riff raff?Quote from: robert.rozee on May 02, 2022, 01:57:21 pm

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 02, 2022, 03:50:06 pm
content: THis will settle the issue with would be Louis Rossmans or Harry Tuttles out there.. Forever...These things are decided permanently without any hope of appeal, by the WTO. Cashless digital totalitarinanism is total. Santa Decides If You've Been Naughty or Nice!

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 05, 2022, 08:16:30 am
content: cdev, I've warned you about political posts disguised as on-topic. Thread locked.