smart meters ? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: PA0PBZ
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 16, 2012, 09:34:06 pm
content: Ok, I made it to 6 minutes, going to look for a tin foil hat now...

author: Sionyn
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2012, 08:52:33 am
content: i kinda lost intrest when he mentioned electro over-sensitivity what a bunch bupkisshis ideas that smart meter can spy are a real 'worry' of coursebut his idea about rf energy and adverse effects on health are junkyou dont have to believe cellular corps, governmentscience and data will tell always get you the truthhere a real leading expert on RF and health

author: siliconmix
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2012, 09:04:24 am
content: Quote from: Sionyn on April 17, 2012, 08:52:33 amthere has to be a scale of side affects from microwave radiation in all living organisms.surely?

author: Sionyn
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2012, 09:46:41 am
content: by what mechanics ?Humans have a seemingly infinite capacity to worry.The problem is, with a near-infinite supply of things to worry about, worrying about problems that do not exists. Take cigarettes for example , damaging and cacogenic yet look at tolerance there is for smoking.This is a non-issue, the idea that cell phones cause brain cancer.Despite there being study after study of cell-phone radiation showing no link at all to brain damage, and despite there being no physical way a cell phone can cause brain damage, people still worry about it.1) People fret when they hear the word radiation, but there are lots of kinds of radiation, most of which is harmless.2) One type of radiation is light. Radio waves are radiation. Microwaves are radiation. These types of radiation are essentially harmless.3) The type of radiation cell phones emit is on the borderline between radio and microwave light.4) Not only is the type of radiation from cell phones harmless, the amount of it is too small to hurt us. Regulations set the power of cell phones far, far lower than levels known to be even borderline noticeable.5) There have been many careful studies looking at any connection between cell phones and health risks. None has been found6) Cell phone use has exploded worldwide, with hundreds of millions of users. Yet the rate of brain cancer detection has been steady for years. If there were even a tiny connection, we’d see a dramatic increase in brain disease. We don’t.

author: david77
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2012, 09:53:16 am
content: What Sionyn said.OT: I wonder would a tin foil hat work better if attached to ground, e.g. by its own grounding stake?

author: siliconmix
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2012, 10:03:36 am
content: Quote from: Sionyn on April 17, 2012, 09:46:41 amby what mechanics ?.well eggs get scrambled in microwaves at the top.lower down the scale we dont know.http://www.mthr.org.uk/research_projects/HO_funded_projects_excell.htmhere's a study your man was involved in .i 'd like your thoughts gents.i don't believe what my govenment tells me about health risks caused by numerous things.on the issue of mobile phone towers .i would like to see more of them dotted around at lower powers.which wouldn't drain the battery so much if your far from the cell and better signal coverage.

author: siliconmix
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2012, 10:06:59 am
content: how can light be hamless sionyn there's these things called lasers you can buy now.

author: G7PSK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2012, 10:33:37 am
content: When I took my amateur radio licence exam the course tutor impressed upon us the legal requirements of not more than 6 wattsRF within 6 inches of the eye, due to cataract concerns. This is why hand held's never have more than 5 watts on the aerial, I read somewhere that some mobile phones can exceed this at times.

author: tesla500
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2012, 07:32:39 pm
content: Of all the sources of radiation to worry about, a smart meter is one of the last. With the short duration of the transmissions and the distance the typical person is from the meter, a single cell phone call could easily expose a person to more RF energy than the smart meter would in their entire life.All this BS about radiation is diverting attention from the more real potential problems with the meters. My main concern with these meters is the remote disconnect capability, specifically whether or not the meter will still give me power if the electronics are damaged by lightning, for example. The old analog meters certainly won't shut off my power. The other concern for some people is that they enable time of use billing (higher rates during peak periods).

author: chickenHeadKnob
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2012, 09:22:08 pm
content: I just had a smart meter installed last week, an ITRON. BC Hydro had a dog and pony show that went around the province trying to placate the worriers. I think this actually made them worse, it feeds the paranoia somehow. The news showed one of the chief refuseniks, - a middle aged woman, outside the meeting hall talking away on her cell phone, apparently those are healthy RFs.

author: siliconmix
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2012, 09:32:55 pm
content: Quote from: tesla500 on April 17, 2012, 07:32:39 pmdo you know what kind of power they put out ? the power would have to increase if your property is a good way from another or cell tower.i hate the idea of it all.i'll be switching all the time when it comes to my area.hows that going to work.

author: tesla500
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2012, 11:22:40 pm
content: Quote from: chickenHeadKnob on April 17, 2012, 09:22:08 pmYep, I'm from BC too. I really laugh at people who worry about the meter's radiation, then go on talking on their cell phones.Quote from: siliconmix on April 17, 2012, 09:32:55 pmSomething on the order of the power of a cell phone, but for very short bursts instead of continuously. Yes, it may vary its transmit power depending on where the receiver site is, but a cell phone does exactly the same thing.siliconmix, have you ever talked on a cell phone, or used a laptop with wifi? If so, you've quite likely already been exposed to far more RF energy than you'll ever get from a smart meter.

author: siliconmix
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 18, 2012, 06:44:36 am
content: Quote from: tesla500 on April 17, 2012, 11:22:40 pmSomething on the order of the power of a cell phone, but for very short bursts instead of continuously. Yes, it may vary its transmit power depending on where the receiver site is, but a cell phone does exactly the same thing.siliconmix, have you ever talked on a cell phone, or used a laptop with wifi? If so, you've quite likely already been exposed to far more RF energy than you'll ever get from a smart meter.yes to the three questions.i have all them in my house does this mean i want more ? i dont.i certainly dont want what this thing does.

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 18, 2012, 07:39:11 am
content: Does anyone know if smart meters will run in reverse if you backfeed power? (like the old motor based meters would)

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 18, 2012, 07:53:46 am
content: Quote from: Psi on April 18, 2012, 07:39:11 amYes!

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 18, 2012, 07:57:40 am
content: Quote from: Uncle Vernon on April 18, 2012, 07:53:46 amYes they do, or Yes you'd like to know as well?I would have thought they'd lock them down so people have to buy a second meter.I've heard some power companies requiring two meters and then selling you power at retail prices but buying your power at wholesale prices.

author: G7PSK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 18, 2012, 07:58:22 am
content: I read something about the smart meters using each other as relays when buildings obstructed direct connection to the main mast, the problem then becomes that some of them are transmitting all the time as they are relaying information from a whole cluster of other smart meters and if the meter is the other side of a wall where there is a sleeping minor it could possibly cause problems, the operative word being possibly here. if you don't want the meter spying on you and reporting back what equipment you are using just install a very large and very good filter on the line to the consumer unit, the smart meters check what you have switched on from the noise and current draw on the line, no noise it can only register the current.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 18, 2012, 07:59:11 am
content: Quote from: Uncle Vernon on April 18, 2012, 07:53:46 amAs to the answer you are probably seeking. Most (if not all) electronic meters will not decrement with reversed current flow. Quite a few domestic solar applications could save a meter if they could.

author: ejeffrey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 18, 2012, 08:04:50 am
content: Quote from: siliconmixThis thing will not harm you. At all. It is 100% harmless. Fears about low power RF radiation are nothing but the insane rumblings of madmen and conspiracy theorists, or the lies of scammers who want to sell the ignorant and the gullible useless protection devices.The idea that 1000 watts is very bad so 1 watt must be a little bad has no basis in reality. RF/microwave energy causes tissue heating. That is all. Obviously too much heating is bad for you, but a little bit of heat makes no difference, just like walking through a warm room doesn't give you cancer. This is considerably different from (for example) ionizing radiation where at least in principle a single gamma ray can cause DNA damage to a cell, possibly leading to cancer. Although exposure levels far below the background level are statistically not dangerous, they are not considered harmless.There is no mechanism to expect a link between low power RF/microwave and cancers. Despite years of study, there is no evidence of a link. Even studies that include people exposed to much stronger fields as part of their work there is no evidence of even a slight risk. Low energy RF is one of the few things in the world that is actually completely harmless. Please don't go around suggesting to others that there might be a link, and certainly do not present yourself as any kind of expert, or even informed citizen on the subject.Now if you object to smart metering on the principle that you don't want the power company monitoring your power usage, that is at least reasonable. I think that ship sailed when you agreed to buy electricity from them, and I wonder why you think it is OK for them to collect monthly usage but not hourly. Still, that is a reasonable concern. Please don't mix it up with this complete nonsense about RF radiation.

author: siliconmix
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 18, 2012, 08:11:48 am
content: you dont know for sure jeff do you?

author: G7PSK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 18, 2012, 09:05:48 am
content: There is a direct link between high power fields and health harm, Ozone produced by electric fields will cause positive harm in an enclosed space, You only need to stand near a sub station or an overhead line with the wind right you can smell the ozone.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 18, 2012, 09:41:51 am
content: Quote from: Uncle Vernon on April 18, 2012, 07:53:46 amI would expect they can be configured by the supplier to either count backwards, ignore, or show a tamper indication.

author: Sionyn
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 18, 2012, 10:50:27 am
content: i had one these installed a about 2005 not nearly invasive as others, and yet the guy who come to read the meter still reads off display yet has to make use of using irda to read the meter despite carrying a old style window ce base pda like device.http://www.elstermetering.com/en/949.html

author: steve_w
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 18, 2012, 10:56:42 am
content: What a load of crap this guy is just so wrong its funny.Just consider the bit where he mentioned the distance from your mobile to your head, then compared that to the smart meter, like you spend all day with your head on the smart meter, he also noted that the smart meter has a dipole antenna pattern so that means the power is rapidly decreasing with the distance from the antenna. I gave up there

author: ejeffrey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 18, 2012, 11:55:33 am
content: Quote from: siliconmix on April 18, 2012, 08:11:48 amYes, I do.Quote"Electric fields" don't create ozone, arcing causes ozone. This is common in high voltage systems and from the increasingly rare brushed DC motors. Low power RF does not create ozone.

author: G7PSK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 18, 2012, 12:21:44 pm
content: Quote from: ejeffrey on April 18, 2012, 11:55:33 amAny high voltage produces ionization and ozone if the ionization becomes great enough you get an arc but you do not need an arc for ionization to occur. Most RF will not produce ionization but if the antennae are fed with high voltage you will get ionizing around it. With the super grid there is petty well a continual coronal discharge, stand directly below a pylon you can smell it and feel it especially if the weather is damp.

author: steve_w
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 21, 2012, 02:05:21 am
content: Do you spend much time under power pylons?Its a matter of risk. I would hope local planning authorities don't allow houses under major power distribution lines if ozone is a health risk.What about power workers, wouldn't they limit risk to exposure when working on power lines? what do power workers do?Does anyone know what precautions power workers take prior to working on high voltage?regardsSW

author: G7PSK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 21, 2012, 09:52:42 pm
content: There have been cases of cancer clusters around substations and over head power lines where houses have been built very close.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 21, 2012, 11:56:39 pm
content: Quote from: G7PSK on April 21, 2012, 09:52:42 pmYeah and those like claims of asbestosis from random contact with cut fibro are absolute unsubstantiated bunkum. The claims of risks from micro power RF are nonsense. A thousand studies and reports and not a scrap of evidence. End of.High power RF will roast your ghoullies, cell phones are not high power, even the cell themselves are safe from 3 or 4 metres away. High voltage will kill without doubt same deal a safe distance of a few metres and no problem. Your biggest risk with power poles is driving home pissed and a wrapping your car around the buggars.There are enough ways on this planet to become ill and/or meet a premature end without inventing obscure linkage. If all the effort that goes into these ghost hunts was put into depression and alcohol poisoning then there is the slim chance of doing some good.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 22, 2012, 12:22:59 am
content: Quote from: Psi on April 18, 2012, 07:39:11 amThey are electronic. If you try to tamper with them they shut off completely and notify the power company to come and arrest you

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 22, 2012, 12:33:29 am
content: Why have the power company come down to arrest you? Just build in some AI and hook it up to some home automation stuff, and have the meter do all of the work. Install cameras and you get a free horror film. And those poor customers thought it was the innocent RF that made it dangerous...

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 22, 2012, 12:43:09 am
content: Quote from: alm on April 22, 2012, 12:33:29 amThey already do that. They have smart meters that will turn off your air conditioning to save power in times of high demand...

author: slateraptor
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 22, 2012, 12:49:46 am
content: Quote from: IanB on April 22, 2012, 12:43:09 amYou've gotta be shittin' me...

author: Excavatoree
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 22, 2012, 01:22:15 am
content: Quote from: slateraptor on April 22, 2012, 12:49:46 amMy boss had one of those installed - fortunately it was voluntary. It turned the compressor off for two minutes every hour or half-hour or something like that. He got a discount, but I didn't think it was worth it.

author: ejeffrey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 22, 2012, 09:02:10 am
content: Quote from: slateraptor on April 22, 2012, 12:49:46 amNo, its actually a great idea if done properly. They only shut of your A/C for a few minutes at a time. The net effect is to synchronize the cycling of everyone's AC to smooth out the load and reduce the demand on the expensive peaking generators. My parents signed up for it when they did this in our home town and didn't notice any effect.Obviously if you live in an area that has trouble meeting their capacity requirements at all, you may have a problem, but even then I would prefer losing my AC from time to time than rolling blackouts, and it is unfair to lay the problem at the feet of the smart meter.

author: T4P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 22, 2012, 09:24:39 am
content: But then again in an area with rolling blackouts it's highly possible that the power supply company can't afford installing smart meters for everyone .And yes , some compressors don't like their A/C's switched off . Once started back up they take 10mins to restart again .

author: TerminalJack505
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 22, 2012, 08:10:50 pm
content: The cycling of the air conditioners brings up another potential use for smart meters. The power company could use it to temporary disable heaters and other high power appliances when they bring power back online after a power outage.I remember a couple of years ago we had a bad ice storm and every time they tried to bring the power back up everyone's heaters and whatnot would kick-in. Several transformers blew. I don't if this was the primary cause or not but having smart meters in this particular case would have been handy, I'm sure.

author: slateraptor
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 22, 2012, 10:25:04 pm
content: Once the general public becomes tolerant of such invasive practice, there's no question that what necessarily follows is abuse by the controlling establishment.

author: Lawsen
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 23, 2012, 07:08:20 pm
content: Smart meters are used in California by the Pacific Gas and Electric utility company to measure and relay the telemetry data from one meter to the next meter until it reaches a PG and E customer consumption and billing data center. Smart meters not only measure electricity consumption, but natural gas usage, too.

author: Sionyn
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2012, 08:42:42 am
content: new report surprise surprise say no harm to humans from radio frequencyhttp://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-17843953