How do they know if you have a HAM license or not? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: raspberrypi
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 03, 2017, 02:10:38 am
content: How do they stop people from unauthorized broad cast? Do HAM radios only transmit on certain frequencies? I'm wondering about radios that work below 30MHz.What keeps people from just using any freq. on the shortwave bands?

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 03, 2017, 02:18:25 am
content: Off the shelf ham radios generally only cover the ham bands for the country they are sold in.As far as enforcement, generally it is self policing. If other hams notice that an unlicensed person is transmitting on ham bands, they will turn it into a transmitter hunt exercise, recording evidence and turning it over to the local regulatory authority (e.g. the FCC). As far as non-ham bands, the users of the bands look out for their own assets and are the ones that will prompt an investigation, if they notice interference.Especially at VHF and UHF where things are more local, interference and jamming can get very contentious. I have seen people drive out to the jammer's house and cut coax, etc.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 03, 2017, 02:23:48 am
content: How do they know that you are speeding on a highway? They don't, but if you get caught, you are in trouble.

author: Richard Crowley
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 03, 2017, 02:30:19 am
content: Back decades ago when the authorities actually stuck to their jobs, at least here in the USA, the FCC actually had teams of inspectors and radio direction-finding vehicles out looking for scofflaws.But, as @Elf says, it is more "interrupt-driven" by victims of interference. These days the government is more concerned about supporting non-productive snowflakes and 3rd generation welfare tribes than actually budgeting for anything the they were chartered to do. We can't even keep bridges up and pot-holes filled. Employing teams of technical people to police the airwaves is not even on their agenda anymore.Of course, you could also argue that modern communication protocols with frequency-hopping channel selection and a network of more limited-range links (i.e. cellular coverage) perhaps blatant stepping on other people's channels isn't the kind of problem it used to be.Certainly in the ham-bands, someone transmitting without a call-sign (or with an expired or appropriated call) would be pretty obvious to the local community. Most ham gear is locked to transmitting only on legal frequencies. Although there are products out of China that are made for international customers using different band allocations, leaving it up to the customer to know where it is legal (or not).

author: Red Squirrel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 03, 2017, 04:15:24 am
content: There's no way they can stop you technologically, but from what I hear the fines are quite high up there for transmitting on frequencies you're not allowed to. Nothing stops you from building an AM or FM transmitter and starting your own radio station either, but once the authorities find out you're going to be in a world of pain. Especially if you're causing interference.

author: raspberrypi
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 03, 2017, 04:17:25 am
content: Quote from: Richard Crowley on March 03, 2017, 02:30:19 amYou mean people like me who are 30 years old and living off social security? I didn't choose to have an accident causing me to start going blind and barely being able to walk most days. I only paid well over $200,000 in taxes during my short working career at a business that I created along with five full time positions. God forbid some of your tax dollars should go to feeding your fellow americans who's taxes paid for roads you are driving on and the infrastructure that powers your ham radio. That money could be better spent on tax breaks for exxon mobil or bombs for non-christian countries. Try lying on your mothers living room floor for a month (with no pain killers) with a broken back while you get rid of your assets so you qualify for medicaid because your injury is a preexisting condition that happened after your group insurance policy lapsed. Shame on me for being a "snowflake" who didn't want to become a paraplegic because I couldn't afford a $180,000 surgery. But the real problem is funds for ham radio enforcement.No compassion left in this country.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 03, 2017, 04:59:52 am
content: I'm not sure what the FCC are like in America but in Australia ACMA do get involved, usually after someone makes a complaint. It usually involves the Police. I know of at least one case just in my area where ACMA and the Police executed a search warrant on someone's home and seized a bunch of radio gear. I'd say he was transmitting in a band and/or at levels he shouldn't have been. Most likely ended up in court too, they don't just come over and take your gear, say "naughty boy" and leave without any further action.

author: metrologist
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 03, 2017, 05:35:28 am
content: Quote from: raspberrypi on March 03, 2017, 04:17:25 amI usually think of the 3rd generation welfare group as the young deadbeat's that have not contributed anything more than a strong ability to suck nipple. I don't think your situation represents the problem, but rather that seemed like a dig at how US government has shirked it's responsibility to the citizens. Think of the issue with the VA - where the vets and their needs are not the problem.The fine is encoded $10k and it usually requires a fairly significant and repeat infraction (on the Ham bands), or if you are unfortunate to key on a safety service band and get picked up and caught, especially if they are in an operation, would be bad.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 03, 2017, 05:37:27 am
content: It's one of those things where you're probably not going to get caught unless you're causing trouble, but the penalties if you do get caught are stiff enough that few people take the chance. I mean it's pretty trivial to get a technician class license, I got mine a few years ago and all I had to do was sign up to go take a test. The test was all pretty basic stuff, a mix of electronics and radio theory and rules and regulations. All of it multiple choice and you only have to get around 80% to pass. You're required to transmit your callsign regularly so if you aren't doing that one of those grumpy old guys like the ones you might find in charge of an HOA is bound to try tracking you down.

author: metrologist
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 03, 2017, 05:40:53 am
content: Quote from: james_s on March 03, 2017, 05:37:27 amLoL, the irony in that analogy. HOA managers are a Ham's best friend...

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 03, 2017, 05:46:32 am
content: Quote from: metrologist on March 03, 2017, 05:40:53 amHeh I see what you mean.Yeah HOA and hams generally don't mix, but the same sort of people who are attracted to HOA positions are also attracted to the ham scene it seems, amongst others. Retired guys with a lot of free time who like to feel important and go around policing what everyone else is doing.Friend of mine lived in a neighborhood with an HOA and this old lady would strut around with a ruler measuring lawns and issuing citations, it was ridiculous.

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 03, 2017, 03:11:30 pm
content: FYI, the practical side seems to indeed be: if you aren't causing problems, you aren't likely to get any action. Pirate radio has enjoyed modest activity, AFAIK. Pick an open broadcast channel, don't stomp on anyone, and don't broadcast anything foolish (like slander, or copyright infringement).Not to endorse such things, just to note that they're out there.BTW, HAMs, and commercial radio, have to broadcast their callsign from time to time -- if you've been listening to a channel for a while and haven't heard any identifiers (or you have, and they don't sound like proper registered callsigns), at the very least, you aren't listening to a responsible (or even lawful) operator, if not an entirely unlicensed one!Tim

author: 1design
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 03, 2017, 03:41:19 pm
content: Experimental radio licenses can be omitted from transmitting the call sign for example, nevertheless they are only allowed to transmit on a non interference basis. So none of the assigned BW actually belongs to them. I remember the HAMs getting very upset when MITRE was licensed to transmit in their bandhttp://www.arrl.org/news/arrl-warns-experimental-licensee-to-avoid-interference-to-hf-ham-activityAs if sounding station, over the horizon radars etc. ever tried to avoid HAM bands during operation.

author: @rt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 03, 2017, 04:49:44 pm
content: Basically you’ll look stupid.If you don’t exchange callsigns on ham bands or identify before a transmission,or identify to ask if a frequency is clear, you’ll look stupid instantly.If you identify with a fake callsign, or someone else’s callsign, you’ll look stupid within ten seconds.If you try to hide doing something just outside an amateur band, you’ll look stupid at some stage.If you transmit with something that doesn’t look like compliant equipment on someone else’s spectrum display, guess what?

author: @rt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 03, 2017, 04:52:53 pm
content: I forgot...If you use a local amateur VHF/UHF repeater, that’s worst of all. My club recorded it at all times.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 03, 2017, 05:30:55 pm
content: Given the lowered entry requirements of Ham Radio (code requirement deleted), why not just go with the flow and get the license? There's a tiny theory test, for which there are MANY tutorials, and that's about it.Higher levels of licensing require higher levels of theory but, again, there are tutorials all over the place.http://wireless.fcc.gov/services/index.htm?job=about_3&id=amateurIt's my understanding that the FCC publishes the exam questions such that tutorials are covering exactly the right material.

author: Howardlong
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 03, 2017, 06:22:41 pm
content: Tell tale signs of being a Ham are remnants of their eggy breakfast on their shirt front.I speak from my own experience as licencee myself of 35 years, your mileage may vary, as may your laundry bill.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 03, 2017, 06:55:28 pm
content: Quote from: raspberrypi on March 03, 2017, 04:17:25 amC'mon, this was not about you. By your reply it even seems that you intentionally try to find something that offends you. There are huge numbers of people who are completely healthy and able to work but prefer sucking the money they did not earn like scum sitting on benefits in the UK. They sit on their ass and receive more money than people who actually do work. About snowflakes, here is a good video:

author: LaserSteve
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 03, 2017, 07:33:24 pm
content: A little known fact. Nearly all analog FM transmitters have a transmit keying signature that is unique as a fingerprint. All I have to do is hook a suitable storage scope with decent memory depth to the FM discriminator output on my receiver and wait. Most radios don't even wait till the Phase Locked Loop VCO is stable before gating the power amp on. That VCO/loop filter combination usually has a very unique signature from radio to radio.These days, direction finding is easier and easier...Uncle Sam, Uncle Ivan, Uncle Kim, basically any government uses a time domain system with a few receivers with GPS locked atomic clocks... These look at the arrival of the wavefronts of a given signal, and it need not be the leading edge. All you need is two of these boxes, and perhaps one more to resolve the 180 degree ambiguity, and you can locate a direct path source within meters...These systems are quite common, in the US, nearly every cell site is equipped, by law, to locate a cell phone within 300 meters when an emergency call is placed. That does not mean each tower has a N6841 looking at all nearby spectrum. But it will have a box looking at the TDMA signal timing etc.If your not moving, and dumb enough to stay on the air... Hunting you is easy. I have in the past built a single band VHF direction finding add on for my ham rig with less then 40 Dollars of parts. The classic "Double Ducky" direction finder is an easy build, and works well, even in multipath.If your a clever jammer, there are some ways of buying time, especially in a city with tall buildings. However that is "means and methods" and I'm not spilling the beans.I managed to tie up the last team that hunted me as part of a Ham Club exercise for an hour and 15 minutes without moving more then 50 feet. When they called time, they had quite a pile of snowballs ready for "Mr. Fox".Steve

author: innkeeper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 04, 2017, 01:58:04 am
content: So broadcasting without a licence is being a radio pirate.pirate radio has a long tradition, and, is still practiced today in the short wave, am and fm bands. Google it to learn more.being a licences ham, id never condone pirate brocasting .. but... if your going to do it....Even with pirate radio, there are unwritten guidelines if you don't want your equipment confiscated and or end up in jail.If you do things to draw attention to yourself there going to come looking for you.These things are in general interfering with government or commercial, and emergency, and air traffic services. Do that, there going to come looking for you in earnest and they are not going to be very happy or understanding when they find you!I've noticed though there are certain frequencies used by short wave pirates in example, where broadcasts have been happening for decades and are pretty much left alone, and in fact there is a hobby in searching and logging such broadcasts. This is not to say those broadcasters do not take precautions to not get caught... it is that its in a very specific set of frequencies that are unused and since it is very contained it is not as aggressively gone after.most major cities have low power fm pirate radio stations. These tend to be eventually shut down as there are few if any free frequencies that will not interfere with a commercial station, and therfor get reported and the infringed corporate entity aggressively seeks a resolution form the FCC.as far is radio communications (two way communications) go if you try and communicate with anyone and you are not authorized for that frequency, there either going to report you or come looking for you. how they know is everyone must broadcast ther licencing info. Radio direction finding is now a honed art, and in fact amateur radio operators will do this locating as a game, called fox hunts. so if they want to find you, they will.so if you wanna talk with people, get the appropriate licence to do that. amateur radio licences are easy to get especially if you already know electronics already.Please don't pirate broadcast, but if your gong to do it anyway i implore you, make sure your not interfering with anything. Last thing you or anyone wants is for communications to be interfered with as it might be someones life your putting in danger.

author: G0HZU
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 04, 2017, 02:26:32 am
content: Quote from: raspberrypi on March 03, 2017, 02:10:38 amFor maybe 35 years, hams have been able to buy what are known as 'general coverage' radios that cover 150kHz to about 30MHz. The receiver covers the full range but the radio uses hardware links/diodes/software to limit transmit operation to the ham bands only. But usually this is easy to modify to make the transmitter cover the whole range on transmit too.Many years ago I did this to my radio within days of buying it because I wanted to use the radio as a high power signal generator and on the CB bands. However, some people (not me) also use radios like this on known pirate bands in the SW bands. I think some of these bands are still known by names like Echo Charlie but they are all classed as 'freebander' bands.The chances of getting caught on these bands depends on lots of things but it generally isn't a good idea to do stuff like this. If caught, the operator could have anything connected with radio and electronics confiscated from them. This could mean a whole lab of gear! Plus the fines can be severe. It's not really worth it, these days the ham exam is easy to pass and there are lots of ham bands to choose from. It was always relatively easy to pass but these days you can't really fail.

author: G0HZU
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 04, 2017, 02:31:09 am
content: QuoteIf you pirated on the ham bands without a license but behaved yourself and used a realistic (but fake) callsign then I doubt anyone (of any influence) would care. A few hams would probably get uptight about it but it's no big deal really. But it's much easier/better all round to just pass the tests and do it legit.

author: Red Squirrel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 04, 2017, 02:59:01 am
content: I took a mock test for fun and got around 50%, that's without much studying or any in depth RF knowledge. So yeah I imagine more studying and such it's not that hard to pass. I eventually want to actually go for the test. Just something cool to have. I have an ADS-B receiver station that feeds to Flightaware and adsb-exchange and it got me thinking I could do an APRS igate too and I'd probably be one of few stations in my area. APRS requires the licence so that would be my main motivator at getting one.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 04, 2017, 06:11:38 am
content: I got licensed so I could legally run a reasonably powerful video transmitter on my RC aircraft. I took the online practice tests a few times until I could consistently get 100% just for the heck of it.