How long does a modern fridge stay "cold enough"? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 07, 2017, 04:29:37 am
content: I've just been informed of a scheduled power outage due to occur in my area which will last for up to 7 hours during the day.I currently have my fridge/freezer set to 3°C and -21°C respectively. The ambient temperature outside the fridge will probably be around 20-22 degrees.I know this a really difficult question to answer, but maybe someone has thought of it already? At it's lowest setting, do you think it'll hold a cold enough temperature so I don't need to throw out food (or go on a mad eating spree the day before)? Most of what is in the fridge is not suitable for freezing.

author: rdl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2017, 04:44:52 am
content: The U.S. FDA says 4 hours. I bet if you bought a few bags of ice to help out 7 hrs would be okay.https://www.fda.gov/Food/ResourcesForYou/Consumers/ucm076881.htm

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 07, 2017, 04:54:12 am
content: Quote from: rdl on December 07, 2017, 04:44:52 amYeah I saw the FDA recommendation, I dare say they would err on the side of caution on that one especially for things like dairy and raw meat. Ice is an idea, a few bags would only cost $4 or so.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2017, 04:58:03 am
content: When my fridge/freezer had an issue with the defrost mechanism I was defrosting it manually. Even leaving the fridge door open for 12 hours to reach room temperature nothing really spoiled (milk had a shorter life, and obviously there was no fresh meat or fish in there). Cheese, salad, vegetables, jars and other stuff will be fine at room temperature for a day. Cold meats and left-overs iffy, maybe eat them quickly. Remember there was a time before fridges and people didn't get ill from bad food.If I leave the fridge door closed the contents will be fine for a day without power, no problem. I wouldn't really worry about even longer.In the freezer compartment, nothing will spoil badly enough to cause problems unless you are without power for more than a day, maybe more, as long as you leave the door closed. Even if stuff starts to thaw it will still be chilled, and it will re-freeze fine when the power comes back.But 7 hours? Keep the door closed and don't even worry about it.

author: edpalmer42
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2017, 05:02:35 am
content: If you have a picnic cooler, particularly one that's powered off of 12V, use it to store anything you might want to use during the power outage. That way, the fridge door can stay closed. Otherwise, every time you open the door, all the cold air flows out the bottom and warm air replaces it.Ed

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2017, 05:04:56 am
content: Yes, it's a good idea to put lots of extra cold stuff in the fridge if you can. Ice packs for coolers are good. Having the fridge full of jars of pickles and stuff is also good. And for sure, fill all the extra space with food containers full of water, frozen if possible.But there was a 24 h power outage a few years back and I don't remember being the slightest concerned.

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2017, 05:08:08 am
content: Quote from: wilfred on December 07, 2017, 05:00:26 amWhat may go wrong with cooked rice after just 7 hours?

author: Ampera
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2017, 05:08:47 am
content: just use a couple of AA's and a batteriser and you're golden.I'd just pop down to the store, grab some ice, and throw it in there.My thinks is that it would potentially be fine, but if you are worried, ice is nice.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2017, 05:14:05 am
content: Quote from: Bud on December 07, 2017, 05:08:08 amThere can be a food poisoning danger with stored cooked rice if you do not reheat it thoroughly before eating.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 07, 2017, 05:14:49 am
content: Quote from: wilfred on December 07, 2017, 05:00:26 am7 days. Plenty of time to prepare.I'll have no cooked food or raw meat in there (all leftovers will either be eaten or frozen). It's more the case of things like cheese, milk, vegetables and opened jars of various things.I might just take your suggestion wilfred and freeze some containers of water beforehand. That should do.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2017, 05:16:39 am
content: Then just make sure you don't have any raw chicken or fish in there. You'll be fine.OK, you edited after I posted. But yes, cheese, milk, vegetables, open jars, no problem at all.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 07, 2017, 05:29:16 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on December 07, 2017, 05:25:19 amI'm not that concerned. No one will be home during the day anyway. I'll stick with ice trays and measure the temperature after the power returns.

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2017, 05:35:38 am
content: Quote from: IanB on December 07, 2017, 05:14:05 amFine, but then it does not matter if rice was stored cooled in a fridge or not.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2017, 05:38:57 am
content: Quote from: Bud on December 07, 2017, 05:35:38 amIf the rice is not stored chilled the risk of food poisoning is far higher. Never eat cooked rice that has been kept at room temperature for very long, even if you do reheat it first.

author: Ice-Tea
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2017, 06:25:09 am
content: - Set your freezer to as low as it can go. Will give you more margin- Use your freezer to freeze a few 2l bottles (plastic!!) of water. Put them in your fridge. Much less messy than a leaking bag of ice cubes

author: BradC
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2017, 06:34:27 am
content: Some ice in the fridge.A good measure on the freezer is pop a small coin on top of one of the ice cube trays. If it's still there when you get home then you know the freezer stayed below zero. If it's frozen in the ice block then you know it got above zero and re-froze when the power came back on.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2017, 06:37:34 am
content: Most people are far too cautious about food storage, recall that the modern household electric fridge is a relatively recent invention and took a while to reach market saturation:http://www.telegraph.co.uk/foodanddrink/8605239/The-rise-of-the-fridge.htmlThe majority of foods will keep for days at room temperature without spoiling to the point they would make you sick, they might change colour or taste different but they'll still be healthy to eat. Use by, best before, and expiry dates are set by manufacturers to maintain their quality "standards" which is dominated by looks and tastes and rarely food safety. Cultured milk products are particularly aggressive in their expiry dates despite being pasteurised in Australia.Almost anything is safe to consume once it has been cooked properly, heck get over 70 degrees Celcius and you too can drink that pint of sewerage:http://www.who.int/water_sanitation_health/dwq/Boiling_water_01_15.pdfThings I would avoid that haven't been refrigerated are chicken and pork products.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 07, 2017, 06:47:11 am
content: Quote from: Someone on December 07, 2017, 06:37:34 amThe issue is, I deliberately purchase foods which are low in sugar and salt (natural preservatives) and other artificial preservatives. We consume way too much "shit" these days, even the humble margarine is terrible for you, nothing but pure butter in this house! The less processing, the better. That's my opinion.Even though I like my butter and other oils (Olive, Grapeseed, Peanut), my sugar and cholesterol levels are excellent (eating plenty of fresh eggs, yolk and all contributes to that, I say 'fresh' because some people prefer their eggs from a carton!)

author: Ampera
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2017, 07:04:03 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on December 07, 2017, 06:47:11 amThe fact that you use butter rather than margarine has now given me an even greater sense of respect for you.I'm by no means a healthy eater. I am actually unable, be it physically or psychologically, to eat most vegetables. I just can't eat them, I immediately start to puke upon oral contact. So because of that my diet is a bit on the more artificial side. I love fruits, and can tend to eat healthier foods.Anyways, I hope your fridge doesn't rot apart. The city I live in has a rock solid power grid that has, at least for us, had only two major power outages (I define major as lasting more than ~10-30 minutes) in the last 8-10 years.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 07, 2017, 07:13:46 am
content: Quote from: TwoOfFive on December 07, 2017, 07:04:03 amThe thing is, people need to spend more time reading the ingredients list on products, if it's full of E and C numbers, put it back on the shelf. Thankfully in Australia we have an abundance of fresh fruit, vegetables and products like dairy, fresh meat and amazing seafood, there really isn't any excuse to eat healthy. Even our sugar is made from sugar cane as opposed to high fructose corn syrup which is almost non-existent here (unless you buy imported products).I've heard the argument that "living healthy costs more", that's absolute crap. For around $15, I can cook a huge batch of spaghetti bolognese with nothing but the good stuff and get a good 8-10 servings out of it.That being said products marketed as "low fat" are generally worse for you than the full-fat stuff. Where do you think the flavour comes from? Sugar and/or salt!The other thing many people don't seem to understand is that all fats are not bad. Mono and Polyunsaturated fats are necessary for a healthy diet, as are foods (such as eggs) which are high in HDL (good) cholesterol. Countless studies have shown that eating eggs daily contributes to good cardiovascular health and those that eat eggs regularly have a lower LDL (bad) cholesterol level.

author: Ice-Tea
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2017, 07:29:06 am
content: Quote from: 3roomlab on December 07, 2017, 07:02:45 amPretty sure you got your math wrong (perhaps forgot the latent heat?)

author: Ice-Tea
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2017, 08:31:41 am
content: Plastic bottles expand, actually. Never had any problems filling them at 95%.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2017, 08:42:36 am
content: Quote from: Ice-Tea on December 07, 2017, 07:29:06 amI think so. Water has a relatively lowtemperatureheat capacity, whist frozen. Most of the energy, taken from the surroundings, occurs when it changes phase, from solid to liquid.

author: Jeroen3
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2017, 09:16:54 am
content: I've recently performed a -25 cold test on a product in a regular freezer.After turning the freezer off and with the lid closed it took about 6 hours to get to 0 C.This was with one product of 1.4 kg, and three more 5 kg aluminum heatsinks as thermal mass. Plenty of room in the freezer left.I guess if you fill the freezer with as much stuff as possible you can keep it cold long enough.Then don't fill it with foam, but material with a highspecific heat.Those are materials that require a lot of energy to heat up. Water for example.

author: Paul Moir
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2017, 09:23:37 am
content: Quote from: Bud on December 07, 2017, 05:35:38 amPeople's idea of "Hot" <> thermal death temperature of microbes. Also the particular microbe of concern can produce a toxin which cannot be destroyed easily.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2017, 09:39:20 am
content: Quote from: Bud on December 07, 2017, 05:08:08 amBacillus cereus, whichisserious (sic)

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2017, 09:43:09 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on December 07, 2017, 04:29:37 amSimple physics: it depends on the ratio of internal thermal mass to thermal conductivity from the inside to the outside.You can increase the thermal mass by simply having more stuff inside. Water is a good option, frozen water even more so due to the latent heat of crystallisation.You can decrease the thermal conductivity by putting a blanket over it and preventing draughts, but beware of putting a blanket over the radiator.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2017, 09:55:11 am
content: Quote from: Someone on December 07, 2017, 06:37:34 amIndeed; I remember my parents getting their first fridge, and I couldn't afford one for 2 years.QuoteI'm speaking as someone whose cupboard contains has an item marked "best before Dec 1992", some homemade jam from 1988, and who leaves meat hanging in the air for 6 months without ill effect.Your statement is dangerously ignorant. A couple of the more obvious examples below.QuoteThat's dangerously ignorant. Botulism kills and bacillus cereus can kill; sometoxins are not affected by cooking. There are too many other examples.An entertaining read is "Cooking for Geeks: Real Science, Great Cooks, and Good Food" by Jeff Potter. It goes into some detail about what happens and does not happen to food and pathogens at various temperatures.Summary: youmustknow the exceptions.

author: Ian.M
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2017, 11:06:36 am
content: Freezing strong brine solution will vastly extend the time you can hold the freezer contents at a safe temperature for. e.g. 1Kg of salt in 6 litres of water starts to freeze at -10°C, and will help hold that temperature until its all melted. Fill 2L PET bottles not more than 90% full - 85% is good (measure 300mL of water into one empty, cap and invert it and mark the level to use for all of them), expel all the air and freeze them down. Each will take about 540KJ of heat energy to fully melt them and a further 65KJ to reach 0°C.For comparison a 2Kg bag of Ice at -20°C will only take 85KJ to reach 0°C and start melting.You'll probably need to stagger freezing the bottles due to the heavy thermal load they'll put on the freezer during freeze-down.Alternatively if you are out of time, start with 1/3Kg of salt per 2Kg bag of crushed ice, and use wider mouthed containers than PET bottles soyou can mix it in-situ to avoid the uneven distribution of ice and brine that you'll probably get if you mix in bulk and decant.As you don't want to freeze your fridge contents, ordinary ice is better there.

author: Seekonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2017, 01:56:38 pm
content: My mother gave me my favorite sausage that I can't find where I live. A week later I ate it. After eating I looked at the packaging and it 5 months beyond the sell by date. Not that bad, but they had gone through a major storm that left them without power for 6 days. They had a big filled SubZero fridge and no more than two little coolers. That woman wouldn't throw out anything. Tasted great.I have am off grid camp I stay at all summer. Just a chest fridge and that only runs daylight hours. Large mass of liquid keeps it through the night. Freeze a lot of milk jugs.

author: R005T3r
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2017, 01:59:21 pm
content: How annoying, I've solved power-outage problems with a used diesel generator, and it works not only for fridges but also for other appliences as well.

author: Vtile
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2017, 02:13:35 pm
content: Food storage recommendations are made for worst case scenario in mind, they are pretty paranoid at least this side of the ocean. Ie. My mother (age of 75) refuges to usefreezerfridge for her cheese (as it doesn't taste anything if cold she says) and it basicly sits on the kitchen desk for a week or two straight at 23 deg.C. Any food official would die from just to know that someone is letting it to get warm.The difference for older days though is that especially meat can be over aged already when you buy it from the store, that is unfortunate. With the quality sold here I wouldn't be worried, but I don't know the US situation. The E. coli is a real problem in US what I have heard as the life stock is drowning to their own poop in farms.Freeze some water like said in plastic bottles and fill the freezer. The fish, seafood and meat are the things one should look after, especially crayfish etc.PS. Where did I get to my head that Halcyon were from US, sry... I now see you were from down under.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2017, 02:33:07 pm
content: Quote from: Vtile on December 07, 2017, 02:13:35 pmQuite right too!I leave my cheese like that for months, but it is a decent truckle of cheddarI would be more cautious about soft cheeses, especially for those with compromised immune systems (e.g. pregnant women).

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2017, 02:42:18 pm
content: Here in the US they sell sealed containers of "blue ice" which increases thermal mass. If you have a bunch of that in your freezer and turn the temperature down to its minimum settingbeforethe power goes out,assuming it is only seven hoursyoushouldbe fine.

author: Vtile
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2017, 02:53:54 pm
content: The food storage hysteria is pretty annoying to be honest, as a hiker and outdoor enthusiast the information is non-existent today, all you can get is is peer / community knowledge at which foods can hold in ambient temperature and how long. Any official information is wothless, because of CYA.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2017, 03:40:07 pm
content: Quote from: Vtile on December 07, 2017, 02:53:54 pmThe solution is simple: research and understand the physics and (bio)chemistry. Then come up with informed strategies."Cooking for Geeks: Real Science, Great Cooks, and Good Food" by Jeff Potter is a good starting point. It goes into some detail about what happens and does not happen to food and pathogens at various temperatures.As for CYA syndrome, yes it exists but that isn't the main point. People dispensing advice have to be aware that readers may well half understand and/or half remember the advice, and it is prudent for advice givers to take that into account.The same is true on this forum, e.g. w.r.t. measuring high voltages, isolation transformers, cheap 300mW lasers, etc.

author: 691175002
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2017, 03:57:40 pm
content: As others have mentioned, it depends on the thermal mass of the contents of your fridge. If every spare square inch is filled with water or ice you have a very good chance of surviving longer than a day in both the fridge and freezer.An empty fridge will only stay safe for two or three hours, and if you log its temperature over time the on-off behavior of a fridge thermostat will produce massive under/overshoot.Under/overshoot is more damaging in a freezer because some foods (ice cream and fish in particular) start to sofen at maybe -10c. If you fluctuate across that threshold the texture gets destroyed very quickly.

author: Vtile
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2017, 04:04:39 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on December 07, 2017, 03:40:07 pmErrr. I have too many obsess.. hobbies already, can't start to study yet another, that is the reason I pay taxes and state keeps specialists in the payroll.QuoteI need to get that book it seems...QuoteThat is why the old books are so nice in many times (No CYA), "The young inventor, circa 1920s, where were "Build and do funny experiments with Ruhmkorff coil" and other safe experiments in physics and chemistry.I'll get your point though.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2017, 04:33:44 pm
content: Quote from: Vtile on December 07, 2017, 04:04:39 pmYou can probably read excerpts on Amazon, to see if it would actually interest you.QuoteI have two such "Boy Electrician" books. One has a chapter giving hints on how to build your X-Ray machine, the other has fun things to do with it. The latter cautions that if your skin becomes red, you are probably using it too much.

author: Bill158
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2017, 05:16:26 pm
content: How new is the fridge? Mine is a 2012 Maytag with new generation insulation, probably super dense foam? We have had 7 hour power outages where I live, for routine equipment maintenance, with no problem whatsoever with the internal temp of the unit. Once we had a 25 hour outage due to power company equipment failure (the infamous PG&E who allowed a San Bruno,CA,USA neighborhood burn down because of poor gas pipeline maintenance). The power outage started at around 4pm and the power didn't come back until 5 pm the next day. Temps were above 80 F all night and 100F during the next day. As a precaution I took 6 whole chickens from the deep freeze and put them into the fridge. The chickens didn't even start to thaw. Everything was ok. Of course don't open and close the door except when necessary. PG&E did reimburse anyone who filed a claim if they didn't trust any food after the 25 hour outage. The Courts found PG&E responsible and did fine them for the San Bruno disaster!Bill

author: Brutte
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2017, 05:31:03 pm
content: Unfortunately you cannot extend the freezer's capacity with water/ice. Ice has a serious heat of fusion 334kJ/kg but it chnges state at 0degC. So it will start to melt when all the food is already unfrozenThe specific heat of ice is quite low, around 2kJ/kgK so to get a *reasonable 1kWh and staying below -18degC (assuming you set it at -21degC) you would need 600kg of ice. Pointless, do not bother putting a 2L bottle there.You need a thing that changes state of fusion at below -18degC.An eutectic solution of 22.4%wt. of NaCl with H2O changes state at -21.2degC.It has a heat of fusion of 222kJ/kg. To absorb 1kWh you would need 16kg of this stuff.With fridge it is much easier of course as it pumps out ~5x less heat (with similar volume) than a freezer.*Lets assume a typical freezer pumps out 1kWh of heat from inside in 24h (COP is around 2 so it eats up 0.5kWh of electricity then).

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2017, 09:30:39 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on December 07, 2017, 09:55:11 amOnce again I use a very specific example complete with reference and you run off in another direction with nothing more than your opinion and trying to link unrelated facts. But just because you are still posting rubbish there are well respected and learned organisations claim that the Botulinum toxin can be destroyed by appropriate cooking well within normal process windows:http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs270/en/https://www.foodstandards.gov.au/code/proposals/documents/P296%20Dairy%20PPPS%20FAR%20Attach%202%20FINAL%20-%20mr.pdfThis second link also includes dated outbreaks to show just how rare the events are and extremely detailed discussion of the food safety environment which delivers exceptionally safe food to us. Yes people need to learn what they are doing but I'm just the pushing off point and not giving any specific instructions, but rather links to examples where people can learn more. There are toxins that can be found in food and water sources which cannot be removed with treatment or cooking but people are unlikely to find them unless they intentionally go looking for obviously unpalatable sources.Bacillus Cereus is not considered a risk for cooked food that is consumed immediately, only for food which is kept warm. Back on dairy products Bacillus Cereus is commonly present but in low enough numbers that the toxicity produced has no effect and the temperatures required to grow significant numbers coincide with other growths which would make the milk unpalatable and/or inhibit the growth of Bacillus Cereus. Milk for human consumption has been left unrefrigerated for centuries and considered a "safe" foodstuff even before the introduction of pasteurization, its much safer today with the extended and tightly controlled cold chain which opens up a larger shelf life for the consumer and ability to store at less ideal temperatures without causing problems.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2017, 11:32:35 pm
content: Quote from: Someone on December 07, 2017, 09:30:39 pmYou should emphasis the word "can"; that's very important. Given that the toxin is undetectable before ingestion, there's too much of a chance it wouldn't be removed by extended boiling.I well remember several people being killed in the late 70s by botulism in John West salmon. I remember it because a week later I was at a wedding ceremony where my cousin married one of the John West daughters. Comments were made in one of the speeches!QuoteAgainyouare ignorant.Up until the 1930s milk was known to be one of the more dangerous things you would be likely to eat. Common problems were TB, addition of "flowers of sulphur" to disguise that it was going off, and brucellosis.In the 1970s a relative of mine in the south of the UK was ill for over a year, and they were about to remove lymph nodes (for no good reason, but that's a different story). They finally diagnosed the problem: brucellosis from "green top" milk (for the avoidance of doubt, "green top" != semi-skimmed. Google images take note!)Nobody in their right mind drinks cold milk in India; it is OK in hot coffee or chai, of course.

author: Nusa
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 08, 2017, 01:37:24 am
content: The more cold mass in the fridge, the longer it will last. If there is time to chill bottles of water before the outage starts, do so. If there isn't time, don't. There's a limit to how much a fridge can cool over time, so don't overdo it.Before the outage: Try to eat the whatever is most likely to spoil first.During the outage: If at all possible, do NOT OPEN THE DOORS. At all! You can drink water without ice instead of grabbing your favorite whatever. 7 hours shouldn't be that bad.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 08, 2017, 01:53:02 am
content: Quote from: tggzzz on December 07, 2017, 11:32:35 pmFor those who can't be bothered to follow the links:Quote from: World Health OrganisationWhich is in direct contradiction to your suggestion that "toxins are not affected by cooking" (your emphasis not mine), then you dig in and try to draw some argument back out to unspecified toxins. The Botulinum toxin is readily destroyed with normal cooking processes. I've framed that so specifically about the Botulinum toxin but you still run off on tangents.Quote from: tggzzz on December 07, 2017, 11:32:35 pmAdulterants are not a concern in the current food chain, so why bring them up now? You're just scrambling for any possible foothold.Quote from: tggzzz on December 07, 2017, 11:32:35 pmSo its not good to drink cold but ok when warmed? Please do explain what the difference is there because so far you've gone out of your way to say that heating is not the solution. I'd suggest that warmed (but not boiled) milk products are in fact the most risky option and would rather drink it cold (still preferable to much of the tap water if untreated).

author: Red Squirrel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 08, 2017, 09:01:27 am
content: Given it's middle of winter just put your stuff in some containers or coolers and put it outside if you're worried.But think 7 hours you'll be fine, Just make sure any raw meat is in the freezer, that would be the only thing I'd be worried about, but if it's frozen then it will be fine I'd say.One trick with freezers is to put water in a small container and let it freeze, then put an object on top. If ever you find that the object is inside the ice it means at some point the freezer unthawed.

author: BradC
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 08, 2017, 09:17:45 am
content: Quote from: Red Squirrel on December 08, 2017, 09:01:27 amLocation error, (a)bort, (r)etry, (e)nter correct location.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 08, 2017, 10:10:26 am
content: Quote from: Red Squirrel on December 08, 2017, 09:01:27 amMiddle of winter in Sydney is still about 12 degrees outside during the day. :-) Also, it's summer here now, next week we are expecting high 30 to 40 degree days.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 08, 2017, 10:30:00 am
content: Quote from: Someone on December 08, 2017, 01:53:02 amYou have no concept of Indian coffee and chai containing milk. Your entire point is based on the presumption that it is the same as in the UK/US/Antipodes: it isn't, and your point is false.Apart from that, you repeatedly snip important context, to help "make" your points. We notice.It is easy to get hold of non-pasteurised milk products in the UK and US (and probably elsewhere); some classes of people (pregnant and old) are warned against consuming them.https://www.fda.gov/Food/ResourcesForYou/HealthEducators/ucm083320.htmhttps://www.nhs.uk/chq/Pages/917.aspxhttps://www.nhs.uk/LiveWell/over60s/Pages/Foods-to-avoid-for-over-65s.aspxetcAnd brucellosis from unpasteurised milk is still a concern, as my relative found out to his cost.https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/brucellosis/

author: AndyC_772
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 08, 2017, 12:10:24 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on December 07, 2017, 05:14:05 amThe risk with rice isn't the same as with meat. Bacteria produce toxins as it cools down from being cooked originally, and these toxins are not destroyed by re-heating. Instead, minimise the risk by cooling any spare rice quickly, rather that leaving it to cool slowly before refrigerating.

author: TMM
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 08, 2017, 12:22:29 pm
content: My experience of having ~10year old fridge fail recently was that after 8 hours it was pretty much at ambient temp (~20*C) inside the fridge section and maybe 5-10*C inside the freezer. Large frozen objects were still frozen in the centre and starting to thaw at the surface. We quickly transferred everything to a working fridge at that point, threw out leftovers/opened perishables, consumed everything else in the following months and didn't get sick or die from food poisoning.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 08, 2017, 12:36:20 pm
content: Quote from: Ian.M on December 07, 2017, 11:06:36 amI agree. Using something like brine is a good idea. It will keep the water in the liquid phase, which is where it has its highest heat capacity.

author: Ian.M
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 08, 2017, 01:12:42 pm
content: More important it depresses the freezing point so you get the benefit of water's large latent heat of fusion. -10°C isn't great for long-term storage, but its plenty low enough to keep frozen food safe. Generally, if you can maintain -6°C, frozen food will keep for a week without significant loss of quality. There has also been a suggestion to use an eutectic brine solution (23.3% salt). While technically that's better because there is no risk of stratification (which in my proposed 14.3% solution may keep the strongest brine out of contact with the ice and allow the temperature to rise above -10°C before all the ice has melted), it requires that the freezer be capable of getting far enough below -21°C to freeze it all before the scheduled outage. If you cant get it frozen its nowhere near as effective. As domestic freezers are normally only designed to be able to maintain a temperature below -18°C, that may be problematic, especially in the summer.Another option would be to get enough dry ice - although the freezer must be in a well ventilated location, ground level or above - *don't* use dry ice in a basement, or in a room without effective low level ventilation to the outside air. Talk to the dry ice company about how much you need to maintain a freezer for 12 hours (tio have some margin).

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 08, 2017, 02:04:12 pm
content: One nasty with power cuts (especially unplanned) is that the food may thaw and refreeze without you noticing it.One simple technique test technique is to put ice cubes in the highest point. If they are still cubes, the food did not defrost.

author: Red Squirrel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 09, 2017, 12:41:59 am
content: Quote from: BradC on December 08, 2017, 09:17:45 amOh right did not notice location. I'm just used to seeing everything being frozen at this time.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 09, 2017, 01:23:50 am
content: Quote from: Red Squirrel on December 09, 2017, 12:41:59 amActually, some cold and ice would be welcome right now in California. Today was 81 F / 27 C, with hot, dry winds and wildfires causing widespread devastation.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 09, 2017, 02:42:17 am
content: Quote from: tggzzz on December 08, 2017, 02:04:12 pmGood tip!

author: Red Squirrel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 09, 2017, 02:57:40 am
content: Quote from: IanB on December 09, 2017, 01:23:50 amUgh yeah I can't imagine living there. That heat would just kill me and those big fires every year are quite scary.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 09, 2017, 05:27:02 pm
content: Quote from: Red Squirrel on December 09, 2017, 02:57:40 amI gather it's unseasonably hot over there, at the moment. At this time of year, in southern California, it should be in the high teens, low 20s C during the day, falling to single digits, at night.

author: Nusa
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 09, 2017, 11:55:17 pm
content: Quote from: Hero999 on December 09, 2017, 05:27:02 pmNot really, outside of fire-related local effects, and I'm assuming the speaker above is somewhere near the fires. The average December high/low for Downtown Los Angeles 67.7F(19.8C)/47.5F(8.6C), which is pretty much as you say. However, the average mean maximum for December is 81.4F(27.4C), which means it's normal for temperatures that high to occur in December.The other thing is that Southern California (definitions vary from 7 to 10 counties, but roughly 1/3rd of the state) is still a HUGE area, larger than the country of England. There's seashores, deserts, and mountains over 10,000 feet. There's all sorts of climate here, not subject to a single set of numbers.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 13, 2017, 09:16:06 am
content: Well, the results were better than expected. After almost all day with no power (and it reached well over 30°C in some parts of Sydney today) the freezer remained completely frozen. My "indicator" ice cubes showed absolutely no signs of melting.I placed four 1.25 litre plastic bottles about half-full of frozen water (just water, no salt) into the fridge the night before and they mostly remained frozen, at a guess, probably 50-60% of the ice remained.Good result

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 18, 2017, 01:56:17 am
content: Quote from: Red Squirrel on December 09, 2017, 02:57:40 amDon't they have forest fires in Canada?If not, Australia & the USA want to know your secret!In the Southern part of West Oz, it isn't uncommon to have Winter days of 27C or so.Go North, & all bets are off!Summer temps are usually around the low to high 30s Celsius, sometimes up around 40C.Today is nice & cool at 21C, due to the effects of a Summer storm.I put a lumberjack type shirt on, as the short sleeved one felt a bit chilly.