Looking for ideas for a fancy electrical control system - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / projects

author: Veriatalon
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: September 04, 2013, 11:41:13 am
content: Hi everybody,I am currently working on a large scale project and I am looking for people to join and contribute with their ideas. Basically, the task is about designing a new electrical control system for heavy machines that are used in buildings (like escalators). The challenge is to come up with a system that should be very compact, 100% reliable with long operational life (10y +), and using advanced communication / sensor technologies (easy to upgrade for future technologies). Did you experience a similar challenge?We are consciously looking for passionate people from all kinds of backgrounds that have dealt with similar challenges and ideally found their own solutions.If you are interested to learn more about the project please send me an email for more detailed information: veriatalon(at)gmail.comHope to hear from you! Thanks.CheersElisabeth

author: dr.diesel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2013, 11:48:11 am
content: Quote from: Veriatalon on September 04, 2013, 11:41:13 amNothing is 100% reliable. If you need maximum uptime, you are making a HUGE mistake by designing it from scratch, go with something preexisting with a proven tract record.In the power industry we used Emerson Process Management Ovation systems, offering uptimes measured in years, but far from 100%.

author: Veriatalon
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: September 04, 2013, 12:02:36 pm
content: Hello Dr. Diesel,thanks for your note. Well, the yet to be designed control system must guarantee utmost safety, therefore we should get as close to 100% as possible

author: dr.diesel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2013, 12:14:45 pm
content: Reliability in a control system is hardly a measure of personal safety. Power outages, lightning strikes, operator error can easily cause control glitches, spontaneous output state changes etc.You can rely on a racked out breaker (assuming it's the correct one and the clearance doesn't get cut off!), not an output relay.Designing a plant wide system will cost more than a canned system, with many gotchas for even a seasoned group of engineers, I sure hope you get the right people involved. I am of course assuming your project is fairly complicated, lots of IO etc.

author: V_King
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2013, 12:16:13 pm
content: ug, the dreams and distorted view of the world of marketing people.well the budget is not mentioned, so maybe the team will have a complete freedom for the designok, enough dreaming

author: komet
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 04, 2013, 12:27:22 pm
content: Quote from: Veriatalon on September 04, 2013, 12:02:36 pmEmoticons will get you nowhere. What will get you somewhere are statements of requirements and budget. From these two documents an engineer will then tell you the degree to which you are deluded or not, after you have paid his or her consulting fee.Also, you are not looking for reliability. You are looking for safety, which means designing in mechanisms to cope with failure. In other words your base assumption is that the reliability is not 100% and everything else flows from there.

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2013, 12:35:35 pm
content: Quote from: V_King on September 04, 2013, 12:16:13 pmHad the same thought when reading "100% reliable". And a highly redundant and error tolerant system wouldn't be compact.QuoteI'd guess this is another student's project. In two weeks we'll see the kickstarter :-)

author: fcb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2013, 04:05:46 pm
content: Stairs. Nearest you'll get to 100% reliable.Don't confuse reliability with safety.

author: cosmos
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2013, 04:24:37 pm
content: Safety is normally the opposite of reliable, a safety system will be looking for faults (mostly the dangerous ones) and it normally will stop working in a safe way when it finds one.A non safe system would often not even know something was faulty and would at least for some situations continue operating as if nothing had happened hence being more reliable.A safe AND reliable system ... now that is a much more challenging thing to do.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2013, 04:50:13 pm
content: Quote from: Veriatalon on September 04, 2013, 11:41:13 amThe words highlighted in red are in contradiction to the words highlighted in green. If your objective is reliable and predictable, the last things you want to include are new, untested designs and advanced (cutting edge) technologies. New and advanced things will have an unproven track record, teething troubles, unexpected modes of failure, higher maintenance costs (due to unfamiliarity and uncommon parts), and unpredictable long term performance.In short, your proposals do not make good sense.

author: G7PSK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2013, 05:17:11 pm
content: This all sounds like government type of proposal. Vague and contradictory, millions are then invested until the whole project falls flat.

author: fcb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2013, 09:53:59 pm
content: or someone just started back at school/university and has just got this terms project to research..

author: Jebnor
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2013, 11:14:50 pm
content: Quote from: fcb on September 04, 2013, 09:53:59 pmDING DING DING... I think we have a winner.

author: dr.diesel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2013, 11:18:23 pm
content: Quote from: fcb on September 04, 2013, 09:53:59 pmHa ha, yup. Anybody that thinks they can up and design such a system should FAIL as well. (granted we speak of this without proper design criteria)

author: Veriatalon
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: September 05, 2013, 08:21:57 am
content: Dear all,thanks for your posts. Obviously, you are the experts and I am not, so please excuse the vague wording.To be clear on the background of my posting:The idea is to find cool people who areexperienced with similar challengesand would be available for a short discussion via phone so that wefind out whether there is a fit for both parts. Furthermore, I am able to share more detailed information outside of the forum, and maybe that will make a clarification of some wording/requirement issues possible.The idea in the next step is that I recommend selected people (idea-holders) to the project owner who will then discuss budget/remuneration accordingly.The project owner is neither a university (student) nor the government, it is a company.Regards

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 05, 2013, 09:34:40 am
content: When you are talking to engineers please try being frank."Hi! I'm a headhunter (or whatever term you prefer :-) and looking for EEs for a cool project. The project is about .... and involves .... Skills/experience expected are ... Job location would be ..."That would make it much more simple!

author: Dave
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 05, 2013, 09:36:27 am
content: So if I understood correctly, you are trying to find people with great ideas for your fancy electrical control system, so they can advise you on your big project. For free. Good luck with that.

author: Jebnor
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 05, 2013, 02:01:01 pm
content: Quote from: Veriatalon on September 05, 2013, 08:21:57 amBest of luck...

author: Bored@Work
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 05, 2013, 04:24:10 pm
content: Quote from: madires on September 05, 2013, 09:34:40 amIn engineer circles this is called a pimp. A quick google reveals the same advertising was spammed to a number of sites. If we really have a pimp, and not a student, then we have that kind of pimp who sells life insurances in the morning, used cars in the afternoon and at night tries to pimp a few engineers to some clueless startup.

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 05, 2013, 05:07:07 pm
content: Quote from: Bored@Work on September 05, 2013, 04:24:10 pmI didn't meant to be disrespectful :-) The local ones have to be quite creative because they may not call you at work anymore.

author: Frenchie
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 06, 2013, 01:30:34 am
content: Quote from: cosmos on September 04, 2013, 04:24:37 pmNot to mention one that stays that way despite all the abuses operators, electricians and fitters throw at it. Oops, my grumpy inner Chemical Engineer is shining through.