Scroll Up or Scroll Down?[SOLVED] - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: jpanhalt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 25, 2023, 07:08:32 pm
content: We all know that in Windows, when you want to look higher on the screen you move the scrollbar up. That moves the screen down, right?With an LCD when values are out of range high and the screen scrolls down to show them, is the button that can command that still a scroll up or scroll down button?My adult daughter and "media expert" for her local school district says she would consider that scrolling down, i.e., the screen scrolls down to reveal higher values. In our conversation today, we each succeeded in confusing each other. She's a great sport and from my standpoint, it only means swapping two lines of code.So, what's the definitive answer? (BTW, I am not Faringdon in disguise.)EDIT: This is not unlike the difference between British and American manual lathes. In the former, e.g., my 1960's Smart and Brown "infeed" and "outfeed" have the opposite meaning from American (e.g., Southbend and Hardinge) lathes. You need to be stone sober when switching from one to the other.

author: Benta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 25, 2023, 08:25:43 pm
content: I have no 100% correct answer, but the convention is that "PgDn" or down arrow moves you down in the document. Now, this of course means that document moves up on the screen, but that's irrelevant.It's about your reading focus."PgUp" moves your focus backwards in the document.

author: jpanhalt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 25, 2023, 08:36:00 pm
content: Hi, Benta,Thanks. I know we both enjoy machining stuff. You may not be familiar with the infeed vs. outfeed difference between older American and British lathes. I believe Germain lathes follow the American convention.John

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 25, 2023, 10:12:22 pm
content: There is no answer, but that's what is called "natural scrolling" or something, and has been an option at least in several Linux desktop environments for ages. Maybe MacOS too, although I'm not a user so, not sure.So, nothing new, and a matter of personal preference. I do prefer the classic way. But if you prefer the inverse way, sometimes called "natural", why not. Both can be defended.As long as we have a choice.

author: jpanhalt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 25, 2023, 10:43:07 pm
content: That's the whole problem. My daughter pulls the screendownto see the top on her smartphone. I don't have a smartphone.I looked for a "standard" on Google, and all I came up with was the Windows (opposite) way. Like I said, it is a trivial change in code, and I hadn't really thought much about it until I had my weekly telephone visit with that daughter.I was wondering, since the EU and others have directives for toilet paper,* whether there was something relative to scrolling.I'll wait a few more days to see whether the crowd here has some other view.*So far I have not seen a directive for whether the loose end should be closest to the user or on the wall side. That debate raged on Ann Landers years ago.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 26, 2023, 03:08:01 am
content: A directive?Are you guys after a nasty orwellian dictatorship or what? (As if it wasn't bad already as it is!)That said, seems obvious that, while it may be down to personal preference, the most general approach is that "key up" for going up, "key down" for going down a document / a list of any kind, sounds like the most sane UI.This has extended pretty naturally to the mouse wheel for a similar reason. Up is for going up, not for moving up a virtual page.Now OTOH it also seems relatively obvious that touch interfaces are completely different, since you act on a touchscreen more as you would a sheet of paper. Thus the other way around.One approach for each type of UI. Sounds like captain obvious to me, but apparently it's not for everyone.And I don't get (in the sense that I absolutely dislike) the underlying idea of a single UI for all types of interfaces. We've had enough of that crap already with MS trying to force mobile touchscreen interfaces on the desktop. It doesn't work. Different interfaces, different UIs.

author: ledtester
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 26, 2023, 03:19:59 am
content: Quote from: jpanhalt on February 25, 2023, 10:43:07 pmFor trackpads the behavior is usually customizable.For touch screens the only option I've seen is the "natural" mode -- it's like your finger is physically moving the document.For keypads (eg. arrow keys) it's like Benta said -- you are moving a cursor.

author: Whales
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 26, 2023, 03:35:13 am
content: Touch-worshippers and their desired direction of scrolling are the subcontractors of the devil sent here to slowly sue variations into the one true way.I'm unusual in that I enable horizontal scrolling too. Some software chokes (eg: in some image viewers even the tiniest amount of horizontal scrolling movement loads the next/prev image) but overall it's handy. I presume folks who like vertical inverted also like this horiz inverted?If you ever encounter someone using circular scrolling on their touchpad... murder first, ask questions later!

author: jpanhalt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 26, 2023, 09:11:45 am
content: I've decided to use the Up Arrow for moving the screen down. That is, the Windows scroll convention which in my code equates to increasing an offset value.As for directive, I meant that tongue in cheek.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 26, 2023, 01:22:09 pm
content: This issue is conceptually really simple: oncomputerdisplays, we have generally moved theviewport. So imagine the virtual, long document, and the viewport is a mask with a hole in it we can look through. When we scroll down (scroll wheel, page down key, etc) we are moving themaskdown relative to the document.In touchscreens, where the content tracks under your finger as you drag, the conceptual model is an unmoving viewport (mask), with thedocumentmoving beneath it. So you move itupto see what's farther down it.In other words, it's akin to "are you moving the camera or the subject?"Of course, mathematically these are simply the exact negatives of each other.

author: Bicurico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 26, 2023, 02:12:57 pm
content: It's the same with elevator buttons. Most people, to go up, press the down button, because it seems they are commanding the elevator to go down to where they are.People are stupid.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 26, 2023, 03:16:29 pm
content: Quote from: Bicurico on February 26, 2023, 02:12:57 pm"Most people"?? No.I have literally never evenheardof anyone making that mistake, never mindseenanyone make it. And even if we accept that some moron has thought that before, it's certainly not "most people". Everyone knows you press downto go downand upto go up.You don't think about where the elevator already is right now -- and indeed, many elevators don't have an exterior display, so youcan'tknow where it is.Also, what would such people do or think when they're at the lowest or highest floor, and there is no button that would "command the elevator to go to where they are"??

author: Bicurico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 26, 2023, 04:43:17 pm
content: You are lucky to live in a country with smarter people. Come to Portugal and go to an official building, i.e. an hostpital. You will have lots of opportunities to see people "calling" the elevator to where they are, instead of just pressing the button of the direction they want to go to.But mind you, it was just an example of how people understand and use a GUI in the exect opposite way it was intendend.Regards,Vitor

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 26, 2023, 04:45:29 pm
content: Quote from: jpanhalt on February 25, 2023, 10:43:07 pmCorrect answer is, it depends: Do you have cats or dogs that like unrolling the paper?If you do, then put the loose end closest to the wall. While the paper can still be unrolled, it is less easy for anyone without opposable fingers.Otherwise, put the loose end furthest from the wall, so that pulling downwards andyankingdownwards and slightly towards the wall and sideways will separate a section at a perforation, because such a yank increases the friction against the wall enough.In the loose-end-closest-to-wall case, you usually need another hand or other limb to push the roll to the wall, or otherwise stop rotating, to have a piece separate along the perforations. A trick is to pull the paper upwards and towards the wall, thenyankslightly sideways to separate along a perforation, as it behaves the same as the other way downwards. The downside is that you'll leave a longer than necessary "tail" hanging off the roll.As to scroll, my preference using a touchpad is opposite to my preference using a touchscreen. Try and take that choice away from me and I'll bite you.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 26, 2023, 07:20:33 pm
content: Quote from: jpanhalt on February 26, 2023, 09:11:45 amAgain, while a convention, this one looks like the most sensible if you're interacting with *keys*. Up is rather naturally "going up" in a list or document.Touchscreen interfaces appear to implement it the other way around, but *only* for swiping the screen with your fingers. If you swipe downwards, you'll naturally expect the screen's content to move downwards. It's a completely different interaction, and that's fine.Insisting on "swiping" here, because if you implement virtual buttons on a touchscreen, like "up" and "down" buttons, the "key" convention makes a lot more sense. So it's not just about touchscreen UIs or not, but about swiping or nor swiping.To swipe or not to swipe...Sure people used, almost exclusively, to mobile, touchscreen interfaces may find using a desktop-like UI, or even any device with just buttons, difficult, and being exposed mainly to one type of interface tends to make them want to use it for everything. That's human.Quote from: jpanhalt on February 26, 2023, 09:11:45 amOf course, the "toilet paper" thing made that obvious, but it still looked like something that could very well happen - wouldn't be too surprised - so, the idea made me cringe.Brave new world...

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2023, 09:10:06 am
content: Quote from: Nominal Animal on February 26, 2023, 04:45:29 pmHeh. That reminds me of the last cat I had. When he was a kitten, he unrolled the toilet paper once. It was just too cute to even try and stop him. He was laying on his back, claws in the air, in an ever-growing pile of tissue. This was before phones did video, so no evidence of it. But he only ever did it the one time, never again!We just used toilet paper off the floor for a week. 😂

author: jpanhalt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2023, 10:51:14 am
content: UpdateI gave my roast monitor its third test yesterday with a pork loin roast (more about that to come in "cooking"). It's still very "beta" in development and my skills with a new camera (Nikon Z30) are primitive -- all the images are too dark and have a blue streak color aberration.The LCD monitor scrolls automatically when data are received that are out of limits high, low, or time (screen only goes to 60 minutes). The two images attached show a command scroll. The camera is sold as "vlogging" enhanced, but I haven't figured out how to do a movie yet. Scroll is just a very quick blink. There is no perceptible redrawing. MCU is a PIC16F1789 at 16 MHz.

author: mikerj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2023, 12:16:21 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on February 26, 2023, 03:16:29 pmFWIW I have absolutely seen people do this. I don't think most people do it, but I would expect it is a significant minority.

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2023, 01:16:08 pm
content: Quote from: mikerj on February 27, 2023, 12:16:21 pmFWIW, I've seen people eat yellow snow, and walk into a lightpost and a decorative pool while staring at their cellphones. There is no limit to human willful ignorance/stupidity: having the capability to understand and behave rationally, but simply choosing not to.I can understand people having been lied to by friends or even family members, but the concept of"press the button to tell the lift which way you want to go, up or down", should be quite idiot-proof enough. Labels like "don't dry your cat in the microwave" are not helpful, they're annoying and ridiculous. I'd much rather live in a world that catered to rational people, than in one which tries to coddle the lowest possible common denominator. Let natural selection do its job, I say.

author: shapirus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2023, 02:11:02 pm
content: If typewriters still were a thing, someone would definitely invent one that had line feed moving upwards to print the new line above the one printed before it, and call it an innovation, a "natural" text flow direction or whatever the marketing BS term of the day would be.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2023, 02:35:26 pm
content: Quote from: shapirus on February 27, 2023, 02:11:02 pmMarketing had nothing to do with the changes in UI design.

author: shapirus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2023, 03:47:46 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on March 06, 2023, 02:35:26 pmmaybe. whatever/whoever the "think different" BS is pushed by just for the sake of being different with no practical justification.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2023, 06:44:38 pm
content: Quote from: Bicurico on February 26, 2023, 02:12:57 pmThey do? I've never done that or noticed somebody else doing it, but I can't say it has ever occurred to me to pay attention.Not really an issue at the building I work in now, you tap the floor you want to go to on the touchscreen in the hall and then get on the elevator that arrives to take you there. It's kind of silly though in that there are no buttons inside the elevator car itself so I often see people follow someone else into whatever car opens up and then the door closes and they realize they can't select a floor and have to ride to wherever it's going, get off and then select the floor they want in that hall.

author: artag
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2023, 08:58:47 pm
content: Sounds like a UI invented by a lift engineer rather than a user (ie thinks about the mechanism, and the optimal strategy not the operation).What happens if two people are waiting for lifts and the first lift arrives. Which of them should board it ?

author: artag
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2023, 09:09:50 pm
content: I think Windows and Linux do it the same, since I was confused by Macs doing it 'wrong' when I first encountered one. I quickly found there was an option to reverse it. I guess that's the best way - let the user choose. But that's more appropriate to a full-blown GUI than a touchscreen panel.An then there are those differential-speed web scrolling interfaces, whose only point seems to be to attract attention to the cool interface rather than be intuitive. Intellectual masturbation.

author: eutectique
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2023, 09:10:16 pm
content: Quote from: artag on March 06, 2023, 08:58:47 pmSimilar system is installed in the hospital near me. There are 6 lifts named from A to F, and 2 call panels on each floor. When you select the floor on the panel, it displays the lift name shortly, for 3-4 seconds.

author: jpanhalt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2023, 09:27:13 pm
content: Quote from: artag on March 06, 2023, 08:58:47 pmDepends on how close you want to be to that person. I always let the apparent female board first.In high-rise office buildings at rush-hour, it is not uncommon for people in the US to pick the "up" button when they really want to go down and visa versa. That could be interpreted as picking the button corresponding to the lift's location, And then you have the really old manual machines (circa 1920's), in which the operator managed a gate and so forth. Our chemistry department had one. The user/operator decided which way to go once the gate was closed. You could even stop between floors. Some grad students (not me) enjoyed teasing certain professors that way.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2023, 09:44:00 pm
content: That shows UIs should be based not just on common sense, but also on widespread conventions to avoid confusion.Unfortunately, modern computer UI has severely damaged the conventions that had been there for decades. Goes hand in hand with the tendency to push people to a general state of mild schizophrenia, but I'm digressing a bit.As to lifts, the only UI that appears to remotely make sense is just one button to call the lift to arrive where you are, as fast as it can, using some reasonable processing to optimize its stops, which is definitely not rocket science. And then just buttons to go to the floor you want, and that's it. Any up/down shit is likely to confuse a large number of people if they have not been trained to whatever it could possibly mean.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2023, 10:46:02 pm
content: Quote from: jpanhalt on March 06, 2023, 09:27:13 pmWhy? Is this not sexist?

author: jpanhalt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2023, 10:53:44 pm
content: It's the way I was taught. Doesn't matter to me how it is labeled. I still open doors for women, and most of them still thank me. Maybe that is an advantage of being old.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2023, 07:56:55 am
content: Quote from: shapirus on March 06, 2023, 03:47:46 pmItdoeshave a practical justification: unifying the touch gesture for iPad and macOS, since many people own both. (You probably don’t know this, but lots of Mac users actuallyusetrackpads, because Apple’s trackpads are really, really good. It’s not like on Windows where most people use a mouse because they get frustrated with the touchpad.)And it’s a user-configurable setting, so this is a really weird thing to get your panties in a twist about.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2023, 08:05:56 am
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on March 06, 2023, 09:44:00 pmHear, hear!I urge anyone who is interested even tangentially about UI design to read the original (1980s) Mac human interface guidelines. While it’s true that we no longer have to assumequitethe level of inexperience of back then, it’s a model of user-centric design. Today’s Apple (and Microsoft, and Google…) could really stand to, like… read them.

author: newbrain
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2023, 09:49:32 am
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on March 06, 2023, 09:44:00 pmThat does not make any sense for a lift with intermediate stops. Think a bit more about it.

author: shapirus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2023, 10:52:51 am
content: Quote from: tooki on March 07, 2023, 07:56:55 amI don't care about what happens within this or any other religious cult. But it affects those who aren't involved when it spills outside.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2023, 07:09:50 pm
content: Quote from: shapirus on March 07, 2023, 10:52:51 am1. Be respectful. It’s not a “cult” (never mind religious), they’re simply products used by people who find that they work well for them. (The only real Apple-related religious practice is Apple haters hating on Apple no matter what it does.)2. Apple doesn’t force any of its competitors to do anything! If the competitors choose to mimic everything Apple does, that’s entirely their own decision.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2023, 08:57:19 pm
content: Quote from: newbrain on March 07, 2023, 09:49:32 amSurely, I'm all ears!

author: newbrain
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 08, 2023, 07:36:54 am
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on March 07, 2023, 08:57:19 pmI am on floor 2 and I am lazy*, so I decide to get a lift to floor 1. I push the single button on floor 2.In the meantime a lift full of people going from 1st to 15th is coming up. It stops and opens, I step in and to go 1 floor down I have to make a 29 floors trip (or force the others to go down 1 floor again, for a similar total cost).Of course that works if the lift does not allow reservation and intermediate stops - like in many small buildings and houses.Or did I misunderstand your point?* no, not really. I almost never use lifts even though I work on the 9th floor...