Fluke 87V MAX versus Hioki DT4282 compared [video] - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: Jiri Bekr
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 03, 2023, 07:49:01 pm
content: Hello guys,I am bringing you my Fluke 87V MAX versus Hioki DT4282 video - Two hi-end industrial multimeters compared side to side. Most of the important features for everyday serious probing are thoroughly tested, and their behavior and implementation is examined. Comprehensive table with 75 rows of different parameters is also available for download here or under the video for clearer evaluation or easy later return for some info.PS: few bugs and problems foundVideo:https://youtu.be/hfAm1Gen9ng

author: NoMoreMagicSmoke
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 04, 2023, 03:41:50 pm
content: I had to stop watching pretty quickly. The Fluke was definitely done dirty. A 6000 count meter is expected to have worse specifications compared to a 60000 count meter. The price for the fluke was also very skewed as well (I see the 87Max listed as $588 USD, but the comparison showed it as $994 USD).The 6000 count Fluke 87 is more comparable to the 6000 count Hioki DT4261, and a fairer comparison to the 60000 count Hioki 4282 would have been the 60000 count Fluke 287.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 04, 2023, 04:07:47 pm
content: Not sure what you are getting at as it doesn't make any more sense to 'compare' those meters than it would to compare an Audi sedan to a John Deere tractor. The whole point of an 87V MAX is that it is a rugged, durable meter for use in difficult environments. So its USPs (unique selling points) are the IP67 rating, the 4-meter drop rating, extended battery life and limited lifetime warranty. None of the issues you compare are of much relevance to the vast majority of customers that would purchase this meter. Also, if you are going to use US$ as a price comparison you should use (at most) the US list price from Fluke which is $589, or else be explicit about the source of the prices.

author: Jiri Bekr
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 04, 2023, 04:21:25 pm
content: TO: NoMoreMagicSmokeYour stopping watching very quickly is the problem here.If you would actually watch it, you would see how I compare them when Fluke is running in Hi-Res 20 000 counts mode.The price is actual price I took from two Czech OFFICIAL distributors (Teste.cz for Hioki and GHVTrading.cz for Fluke, feel free to check out, they cost even more today). And if you actually watched the video, you would also hear that prices may vary depending on where you are, and that these prices include 21% tax. It's impossible for me to find prices for every market on the planet and mention them all...The 6 000 / 20 000 counts Fluke 87V series is fully comparable to Hioki DT4282, as they are both industrial hi-ends and there is not that significant price difference as between 87V MAX and DT4261. 87V MAX costs twice as much... And trying to compare DT4282 against F287? Are you serious? F287 also costs exactly twice as much as DT4282.There is no problem with these mentioned in the video, the only problem is you not watching the video, and rather trying to dishonor someone's work based on made up arguments, fabricated by you, that are far from truth. I am not responsible for people not seeing my video, and for them making up their opinions based on nothing, just made up stuff. Also, this behavior is very unprofessional.

author: JeremyC
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 04, 2023, 05:40:05 pm
content: Jiri, as others already mentioned, you’re comparing apples to oranges.If you want to make a fair comparison, then compare the Hioki DT4282 with Fluke 287.Prices in the US:AmazonDT4282 $435 (on sale)Fluke 287 $662TequipmentDT4282 $574Fluke 287 $670

author: BeBuLamar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 04, 2023, 05:46:45 pm
content: I must agree that is not a good comparison. For my work I definitely choose the Fluke 87V Max but for my home use I definitely pick the Hioki DT4282 regardless of price. So it depends on what the intended use.

author: Jiri Bekr
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 04, 2023, 06:20:31 pm
content: Quote from: JeremyC on May 04, 2023, 05:40:05 pmThese prices you have mentioned are dependent on the market though, as things like import tax are applied, and these are not the same for every country.Here in Europe, the prices are as I mentioned in the video. And just as I mentioned in the video, they may be market depentent. And also, I have included 21% VAT, that is only paid if you are not a company.Prices right now in Europe (2023-05-04):Official distributors:Hioki from Teste: 685,37 USD (incl VAT)Fluke from GHV Trading: 1047,58 USD (incl VAT)Farnell:Fluke 87V MAX: 922,27 USD (incl VAT)Hioki DT4282: 692,64 USD (incl VAT)While I agree 87V MAX is not exactly direct competitor to DT4282, you can easily take in account the differences between 87V and 87V MAX (that I have of course mentioned in the video), and then it's like comparing classic 87V against DT4282. Classic 87V costs 951,16 USD right now here in Europe.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 04, 2023, 07:37:24 pm
content: Quote from: Jiri Bekr on May 04, 2023, 06:20:31 pmYep. The 87V MAX is worse than the plain 87V in measurement specifications but much more expensive because of the ruggedness.

author: J-R
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 04, 2023, 10:17:39 pm
content: The 87V Max is actually the 28II inside. This has been discussed to death previously in other threads.Forcing two DMMs to compete makes no sense to me. It makes some sense to compare two competing stud-less sports-sedan snow tires, or two vinyl triple-pane residential windows, whatever...I like the 87V (non-Max) and I also like the DT4282. I've been planning to buy one for quite some time, just never hit the button. The best prices I've found for these are on ebay, shipped from Japan.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2023, 03:22:45 am
content: Quote from: J-R on May 04, 2023, 10:17:39 pmSo how come the diode test voltage is different?

author: J-R
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2023, 03:39:18 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on May 05, 2023, 03:22:45 amBecause it's not?

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2023, 05:30:42 am
content: Quote from: J-R on May 05, 2023, 03:39:18 amTime to re-open those discussions in the other threads?Different voltage, different accuracy.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2023, 05:50:28 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on May 05, 2023, 03:22:45 amQuote from: Fungus on May 05, 2023, 05:30:42 am28 II, Diode2.000V Range, 0.001V Resolution, ±1% + 1 AccuracyYep, 28 II matches the 87V max, not the 87

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2023, 06:12:20 am
content: Quote from: Someone on May 05, 2023, 05:50:28 amYep, the "Max" is the 28 II, not the 87V.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2023, 06:34:14 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on May 05, 2023, 06:12:20 amRead the quotes (minus your obnoxious whitespace and inflammatory emoticon):Quote from: J-R on May 05, 2023, 03:39:18 am

author: J-R
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2023, 06:52:51 am
content: It's understandable, Fungus must have forgotten his glasses or missed his afternoon power nap!To bring things back on topic, I did watch some of the video when it was first posted. It's a bit long unless you just need that level of detail. The interesting part I learned about the 87V Max is the fact that when you're in Hi-res mode, the manual range display does not match:https://youtu.be/hfAm1Gen9ng?t=1873The 87V has this same "issue". It is an odd situation to try to solve, and I suspect Fluke made a conscious decision here. Personally I think they should have just made the DMM a 20k count DMM all the time and just skipped the 6k count mode completely.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2023, 08:37:49 am
content: Oh, brain fart.I was reading a thread about price of 87V vs. price of 87VMax and somebody slipped in a 28II.

author: BeBuLamar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2023, 11:43:17 am
content: I haven't use the 87V or 87V Max in high res mode except to see if it works. I guess it's slower and for all the work I do with the 87 I do not need the high res and I want it to response fast. One of the reason I hate to use the 289 or 287 for my work because it's autorange in resistance is too slow.

author: J-R
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2023, 05:04:24 pm
content: Quality, not quantity, Fungus...I'm sure there could be other ways to solve the "problem" with the manual range not reflecting reality in Hi-res mode, I'm just saying that is one way they could have addressed it. I don't think they would have had any issues making a fast 20k count DMM if they went that route.The other solution of having additional LCD digits is really not going to be practical, because even "2 00" for example would be confusing since it can only display a "1" in the most significant digit. So they may have had to use "19 00" or similar.

author: coromonadalix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2023, 09:56:30 pm
content: Another nothingless thread .... bad compairaisons indeedsame thing for the false 500,000 count on some meters, an "high res" gimmick compare real ranges without resorting to display tricks

author: J-R
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2023, 12:54:42 am
content: Quote from: coromonadalix on May 05, 2023, 09:56:30 pmHey now, the video has good information if you're shopping for either of those models. The flashing red backlight on the Hioki is kind of cool, BTW.And if you're referring to the relatively restrictive 500k count mode on the BM869s, it actually does work especially if you just make a point of calibrating it. Specifically the 5V range is dead-simple to do since there are lots of cheap 5V references out there. At the upper end of each range it can be a bit off depending on environmentals, but up to 25% or so it's spot on to the very last digit, and maybe one LSD off above that which is useful. It's also very good for values just beyond the range, say 10V. Again, assuming the calibration is good.

author: NoMoreMagicSmoke
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2023, 04:16:42 am
content: Quote from: Jiri Bekr on May 04, 2023, 04:21:25 pmI watched up until the point where you made the statement "Hioki measured ACV and the Fluke estimates ACV". I was willing to give it a chance, but I couldn't keep watching after picking a poor comparison, then bashing the Fluke because of the poor matching. I hope you can agree that watching 20 minutes was enough for my opinion to be something more than "Made up stuff".Again, the Fluke 87 Max is a different target market than the Hioki DT4282. The Fluke 287 is the meter that competes with the DT4282, and in my opinion making that comparison (and stating your cost difference) would have been a more fair comparison.

author: BeBuLamar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2023, 12:11:43 pm
content: Quote from: NoMoreMagicSmoke on May 06, 2023, 04:16:42 amI have to agree with you. For my work I definitely pick the Fluke 87V Max and really never even care about the 20,000 count mode. I don't need that high res nor accuracy. I do want the IP67 and the long warranty. I did need them both. But if I buy one for use at home the Hioki is a better meter. I think the Hioki DT4282 is closer to the Fluke older 189 or 187. It's 100 hrs battery life is comparable to the 189/187 not the 87V or 87V Max.One thing I hate that when my work is hectic and I am in a hurry and I have to get new batteries for the meter.

author: NoMoreMagicSmoke
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2023, 05:13:54 pm
content: Quote from: BeBuLamar on May 06, 2023, 12:11:43 pmI have always thought the 20,000 count mode was a bit gimmicky. I know people use it to measure for drift, but since the accuracy spec is double digit counts in 20k mode, it's not really good for much more than that.I agree with you on the Fluke 187 and 189. I much prefer those older meters to the newer 287/9. I think Fluke went way to complicated with the 28x series.

author: BeBuLamar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2023, 06:30:44 pm
content: When I sent in my original 87 (bought in 89) to Fluke for repair of the bad display the second time in 2004. They said they can't fix it anymore and offered me $100 credit toward the new 189. So I bought the 189. About a month later or so they contacted me and wanted an interview with me for an hour and gave me a $100 HomeDepot gift certificate. So I sat down with them and they showed me on their laptop a simulator of what was going to be the 189 IV (now they changed the name to 289). I asked me a couple of things like do I want the temperature to show in bot C and F? I said I want to be able to switch but I don't want to see both at the same time. Any way I liked the new dot matrix display but little did I know that when I got my hand on the real 289 the display is so low in contrast that I almost always have to use the backlight. The simulator on the laptop didn't show this problem. Also I didn't know that it boots up so slowly and the autoranging in Ohm mode is too slow. So I told them I liked the new meter a lot which I don't really now that I have used them in real life.

author: ahakman
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 16, 2023, 11:42:00 pm
content: The 189 IV and the 289 are completely different meters. They have similar specs and similar operations on the dials, but the 189 IV boots instantly, and uses a normal (non dot-matrix) LCD. It also chews through way less battery power.The 289 has very similar features and specs to the 189 IV, but is worse in almost every way - dot matrix screen, slow booting, chews through batteries, etc etc.The 189 IV is the meter you want for a super high end portable.

author: BeBuLamar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 17, 2023, 09:21:27 am
content: I actually never know of the 189 IV. There was only the 189 II but it's the same as the 289. It was my typo to call it the 189 IV.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 17, 2023, 09:48:29 am
content: Quote from: BeBuLamar on May 17, 2023, 09:21:27 amThere's no such meter. The 189 was launched as the 87 IV but too many people complained so Fluke renamed it as the 189 (and made the 87V).Quote from: BeBuLamar on May 17, 2023, 09:21:27 amThe 189 II became today's 289.Bottom line: The 187/189 are Fluke's design peak. After that it's all just "Protect the 87V"

author: BeBuLamar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 17, 2023, 03:50:26 pm
content: What I meant is that when Fluke demostrated to me the 189 II/289 using the laptop it didn't reveal the problem of low contrast, slow boot time and slow autorange in resistance mode all of which made me not using the 289 much. At the time just shortly after I bought the 189 they did that demo to me made me feel bad and thought I should wait. But now I am glad I bought the 189.

author: J-R
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 17, 2023, 11:48:10 pm
content: Comparisons like this can break down pretty quickly without a specific (narrow) use case. The 189 does feel closer to the DT4282, from the perspective of the display. Similarly, the 289 seems like a different product entirely, with the unique Min/Max and graphical trend display options.BTW, battery life, directly from the Fluke manuals:189 - "72 Hours typical (with backlight off)"289 - "100 hours minimum. 200 hours in Logging mode"

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 18, 2023, 03:54:20 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on May 17, 2023, 09:48:29 amYes, that was a very interesting (and confusing at the time) turn.But when you have an industry standard is totally makes sense to protect that cash cow for as long as possible.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 18, 2023, 03:59:42 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on May 18, 2023, 03:54:20 amI bet it annoys the Fluke engineers though.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 18, 2023, 04:33:14 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on May 18, 2023, 03:59:42 amI don't know where you get the idea that they 'protect' it unless you're suggesting that they introduce a cheaper 'bang for buck' model to compete with Uni-T for your hobbyist dollar. There are two more rugged (IP67) meters at similar price points that could be considered competitors and the 287 sits right above it in the line, only $200 more. The basic 179 sits right below it in the lineup. Those are all 'cash cows' as they've been in production for decades, which is a 'feature, not a bug'for Fluke. And then there's the 3000FC, which is probably attractive to many real Fluke 87V customers.https://www.fluke.com/en-us/product/electrical-testing/digital-multimeters/fluke-3000-fc

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 18, 2023, 05:26:55 am
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on May 18, 2023, 04:33:14 amThe renaming of the 87 IV to the 189 was clearly done to protect the traditional 87III market at the time and avoid confusion that Fluke were going to discontinue the 87V form factor and features.It's likely that no amunt of reassurance that they weren't going to discontinue the 87III worked, so they changed it quick smart.And then it's been the same design and features for two decades now, with no visible upgrade. The 87V came out in 2004, almost 20 years ago now.In that time a lot has changed inside, IICR they switched processors to the MSP430 and did other things, but outside it was the same.They are clearly protecting a winner, and Fluke have told me as much.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 18, 2023, 05:29:15 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on May 18, 2023, 03:59:42 amIt took them a year to fix that GSM hardware problem I raised in a video a long time ago. Probably the most excitement they'd had in years

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 18, 2023, 05:56:30 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on May 18, 2023, 05:26:55 amI think that's more of a "New Coke" story, so we may not agree on what 'protect' means. If it means promising to continue producing the same old product--even with respun insides--that's one thing and one Fluke does as a matter of policy. But I don't see that they've protected it in the way thatFungusimplies, meaning they deliberately withold other products from the market. My point was that there were and currently are Fluke products that a user could reasonably buy instead of the 87V. (They're all cash cows as far as I can tell...) The 189, no matter how named, would have still been a Fluke model that advanced users could have bought instead of the 87 series. I wouldn't expect Fluke to design and produce a cheaper product with more features just to compete with themselves. I think the 87V protects itself with continuing demand for that specific model.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 18, 2023, 06:01:10 am
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on May 18, 2023, 05:56:30 amWhat's your opinion on those "Asia only" models that they don't sell in the USA?

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 18, 2023, 11:15:24 am
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on May 18, 2023, 05:56:30 amThey actually trialed this 20+ years ago or so. Although it didn't have more features or better specs. But bang-per-buck was vastly better. It started with the Fluke 19 that was made in China and only sold in the Asia Pacific region which included Australia. Dick Smith used to sell it. It used the 87V (87III?) chipset at the time.https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/a-quick-look-at-a-fluke-19-dmm/But they had serious problems with the chipset failing or some such. We had half a dozen of these at work, and I had one personally, and every one of them eventually failed.You'd be lucky to find a working model these days.It was eventually morphed into the 110 series and the 18B+ is the modern equivalent.QuoteYes. Military, government, and other industrial sales would drive that. But they deliberately haven't updated it in 20 years now. No extra incremental feature 87VI

author: BILLPOD
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 18, 2023, 12:35:42 pm
content: I bought my 189 in 2007, and remember choosing it over the 87V because of the logging function. I have never regretted my decision

author: BeBuLamar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 18, 2023, 06:47:39 pm
content: Yes I bought the 189 when Fluke said they couldn't fix my original 87. After I bought the 189 they came out with the 189 II (289) and at the time I thought I made a mistake not waiting a while longer to get the 289. But now I am glad I bought the 189 with my own money. I have both a 289 and a 287 rarely used but I have them for free. I wouldn't pay for them.

author: willinsau
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: February 18, 2024, 05:45:33 am
content: QuoteI am now in Australia. I got a fluke 19 2 month before, It works well. But when I open the case, it use the bargain components replace the normal Fluke does. So I resell it at $35.