Effect of Weight of Electric Cars - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: apelly
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 25, 2017, 11:34:57 pm
content: I haven't seen it come up in the usual "Wow! Electric!" feel-good stories, but it occurs to me that a whole bunch of heavier vehicles on the road could be a disaster for already poorly maintained infrastructure. It's my understanding that roads are designed with traffic loads in mind to balance cost of construction with cost of maintenance.What happens when the weight of the average car doubles?Discl; I didn't check how much heavier electric cars actually are.

author: Dubbie
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 25, 2017, 11:49:33 pm
content: The model x weighs about 2.4 tons and Audi Q7 weighs about 2.4 tons. I guess there is your answer.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 25, 2017, 11:52:08 pm
content: Yep, likely we've all wondered that but modern electric motors are much lighter that internal combustion engines, transmissions and full fuel tanks.....What did surprise me was a customer came a few days ago in a E BMW with 155/20" wheels that one might wonder don't distribute the vehicle's weight to as big footprint as a smaller and wider tyre.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2017, 01:10:31 am
content: Total weight is a non-issue:Chevy Silverado 1500 pickup - 4510 lbs and upChevy Bolt - 3563 lbsChevy Bolt battery - 960 lbs.They are also using a lot of aluminum in the body of the Bolt to cut down the weight. Details available on Google...

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2017, 01:15:28 am
content: That depends on where you live. In the EU the average car is around 1100kg to 1500kg.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2017, 05:57:50 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on November 26, 2017, 01:15:28 amThe Chevy Bolt is 1616 kg - not entirely out of line compared to larger EU cars.The Mercedes Benz S-class is somewhere over 4700 lbs or 2142 kg.Now, the Bolt isn't anywhere near the size of the Mercedes and nowhere near the same quality class but in terms of roadway wear and tear, the Bolt isn't a heavyweight.

author: Nusa
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2017, 06:29:18 am
content: Heavy vehicles are exponentially more damaging to roads than light vehicles. So much so that I doubt any difference in light vehicle wear would even be measurable in most cases.The limits on heavy vehicles may differ based on location. In the US, it's generally up to 80,000 lbs for a five-axle semi without special permits. In other words, the single-tire load of a truck can exceed the weight of an entire passenger vehicle.Note that commercial weight limits include the weight of the truck itself, so if the new Tesla truck happens to weigh more, it's at the expense of load capacity.

author: Benta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2017, 04:02:20 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on November 26, 2017, 01:15:28 amThat's some years back. Today average is around 1600 kg with all the X5s and Q7s being sold.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2017, 05:13:21 pm
content: Here regular motor vehicle with trailer has to have a mass fully laden under 3500kg, otherwise it is a light truck. All up mass allowed for a vehicle ( otherwise it is classed as an Abnormal load) is 65 tons, with allowed axle masses for a steering axle of 18 tons, and 20 tons for non steering axle sets. Thus the popularity of dual steer vehicles ( mostly ERF for older ones) for things like brick delivery, and length is also limited to 22m overall. Do not see an electric vehicle falling out of this, and there is a quite large fleet of hybrids around, mostly the Lexus LS350h, the Prius along with a smattering of others.

author: Bashstreet
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2017, 05:27:05 pm
content: Quote from: Benta on November 26, 2017, 04:02:20 pmThe average mass of new cars in the EU is 1,385 kg (2015) (trend it downward)X5's surely cannot increase average...

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2017, 05:45:04 pm
content: Quote from: Benta on November 26, 2017, 04:02:20 pmNot everybody is driving such cars (not even in Germany).

author: Dr. Frank
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2017, 06:00:29 pm
content: Here in Germany, all European trucks pass our Autobahn , from east to west and south to north and vv.These commercial vehicles are identified to wreck our roads, and especially all of the bridges the most.Over 60% of all Autobahn bridges in Germany, many originating from the 1960ties, have to be replaced in the next decade, because nobody accounted for this heavy increase of truck traffic across our country, additionally increasing a lot, when the iron curtain opened in 1990.The passenger cars, let them even be these popular heavy SUVs (again here in Germany), contribute far less to these damages.It is generally assumed, (originating from the AASHO Road Tests), that the damage depends to the 4th potency on the weight of one axle of a vehicle, so that a 3-axle, 30t truck damages the road 10000 times more, than a 2-axle 2t passenger car.Concerning energy conservation, cars should weigh as least as possible, because the acceleration of its weight consumes at lot of the invested energy.Therefore, I can't really understand, why so many people ride these SUVs, although they only use them on the regular roads, and are not farmers, foresters, lumberjacks, or similar.Just a replacement for their small ego, or similar..Frank

author: Benta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2017, 06:27:46 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on November 26, 2017, 05:45:04 pmSUVs are now the largest segment of new cars on the German market. The compacts have been relegated to second spot.https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/news/suv-neuzulassungen-zulassungszahlen-oktober-2017-736985.html

author: GreyWoolfe
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 26, 2017, 07:19:18 pm
content: Quote from: Dr. Frank on November 26, 2017, 06:00:29 pmNot everyone is compensating for something smallOur 2nd vehicle is a 2013 Ram Tradesman CV, a cargo van version of the Dodge Grand Caravan/Chrysler Town and Country minivan. The curb weight is 4510 lbs/2046 kilos. The van offers flexibility that the Hyundai Sonata(SWMBO's car) can't match, such as full sheets of plywood/drywall, 10 ft lengths of lumber, furniture that would never fit in the Sonata's trunk. We helped friends clean up yards after Hurricane Irene, carrying lawn mower, weedwacker, blower, chainsaw and all that goes with them. Some of us actually have a use for the larger vehicles we own, it may only be a 2 seater but it has a big honking trunk.

author: Bashstreet
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2017, 07:24:04 pm
content: Quote from: Benta on November 26, 2017, 06:27:46 pmWe are talking about Europe not Germany.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2017, 07:37:43 pm
content: Quote from: Dr. Frank on November 26, 2017, 06:00:29 pmA light weight car versus a heavy car in a collision and the heavy car wins every time. In my view, the 1958 Buick is the car to drive. It was a veritable tank! A Prius would just be a hood ornament!Acceleration is everything! If the car is a bit heavy, add horsepower. That 840+ HP Dodge Demon seems just about right!0-140 MPH in 9.6 seconds and 1.8 g's:https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-04-12/meet-the-840-horsepower-dodge-challenger-srt-demonFinding 100+ Octane gasoline might be a problem...The environment can take care of itself!

author: lukier
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 26, 2017, 08:08:54 pm
content: Quote from: Dr. Frank on November 26, 2017, 06:00:29 pmIt is worth mentioning that vehicles above 7.5t pay toll to drive on the Autobahn:https://www.toll-collect.de/en/toll_collect/bezahlen/maut_tarife/maut_tarife.htmlI have no idea if the total amounts collected via this system are enough to finance the infrastructure maintenance.Quote from: Dr. Frank on November 26, 2017, 06:00:29 pmThat is a very important point and I think not many people know that. Maybe, if they did, more people would support rail freight or rolling highway (like the Swiss do).

author: Dr. Frank
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2017, 08:17:13 pm
content: Quote from: rstofer on November 26, 2017, 07:37:43 pmAmericans are really funny, especially when it gets to cars, and to waste of energy... wait until the Earth wastes mankind...heck no, we are doing that all by ourselves already. (Mainly by exponentially increasing over-population, but I don't think by excessive CO2 exhaust)No kidding, I'm also fascinated by strong cars and sometimes by high speed.. but I always wonder, why you Americans love these horsepower, cubic cm and Nm monster cars, when you're allowed 60mph only..Frank

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2017, 08:31:35 pm
content: Quote from: Dr. Frank on November 26, 2017, 06:00:29 pmI agree and most of the drivers are terribly slow drivers as well especially when there are corners in the road. In Dutch I have a different wording for SUV: 'Sukkelt U Voort' which roughly translates to 'going forward at a snail's pace due to being crippled'.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2017, 08:35:06 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on November 26, 2017, 08:31:35 pmGo for a spin in a Q7 and you'll think differently.No I don't own one.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2017, 08:51:57 pm
content: The sales of personal automobiles are declining in the US and have been for several years. Additionally the younger generation are not buying cars or getting driver licenses in anything like the numbers that their forebears did, and that bodes ill for the future of conspicuous consumption generally. People cant buy tons of stuff they don't need if they have no way to get it home or get out and use it.Many young people can't afford cars. Quite a few cant even afford to get their own places to live. So they make do with the Internet and public transportation.Perhaps the sales of cars is still healthy in Europe but it isn't here. For years Ive been hearing that arge inventories of unsold cars remain in the country from the slump several years ago. One has to wonder, have they - or will they ever - cut prices on the unsold cars enough so they can move them out of those huge parking lots in places like Long Beach CA. and Bayonne, NJ, which are large enough to see from space.This video is from 2015 - are they still there? Ive heard conflicting reports.Looks like there are also lots of unsold cars in the EU.

author: GreyWoolfe
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 26, 2017, 09:08:48 pm
content: Quote from: cdev on November 26, 2017, 08:51:57 pmIt's not just young people. Any decent new car is way out of our price range and comfort zone for a monthly payment. We were also a 1 car family for a number of years. We bought the cargo van as it was my retired company vehicle, so we knew the history and the price was about half of the Kelly Blue Book value. It was still a stretch to come up with the cash for it but we really needed to get back to a 2 car position. Then you add full coverage insurance on both vehicles which isn't cheap here in Florida but the extra sacrifice is worth it. Funny you mention Bayonne, NJ. I was born and raised and spent half my life there.

author: Tom45
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2017, 09:23:01 pm
content: I worked for 3 summers at my state highway department during my college years. From memory, the design of the pavement, base, and sub base is determined by heavy truck traffic. The effect from passenger cars is negligible.Some detailed results are in this paper:http://epdfiles.engr.wisc.edu/pdf_web_files/tic/bulletins/Bltn_002_Vehicle_Load.pdfIn particular, the damage from a 9 ton axle load is 10 times that of a 5 ton axle load. Two axle passenger vehicles rarely weigh more than 3 tons, and usually more like half of that. So their axle loads are in the range of 0.75 to 1.5 tons.So any passenger vehicle will have very little effect on roads designed to handle trucks.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2017, 09:39:49 pm
content: GreyWoolfe, do you know if there are still huge numbers of recently made unsold cars in Bayonne like there were a few years ago?Developed country manufacturers are being cajoled into doing much/most of their new investment overseas - and so lobbyists are pressuring developed countries to sign deals that basically put millions of stable government jobs on a sort of poker table to be privatized and globalized to the lowest bidder. These new rules apply whenever tax money is spent, at all levels of government and quasi-government. They are trading service jobs here for the market access. Service jobs are basically the remainder of the economy and once a service sector like IT is opened, we cant limit it as we would hope, the quotas they have been using are under attack and may be overturned any day now by the WTO. That will likely mean a many fold increase in IT subcontracting (and other fields like engineering too) until the wages equalize somewhat between the developed and developing world. US firms claim to see their future growth being Asia where many people still don't own cars and other devices that US consumers often already have. Also, wages are a fraction there what they are here so all kinds of (both skilled and unskilled) service providers and factories' labor costs are much lower. The next wave will be service provision over the Internet. (They are just waiting for the elimination of red tape which will then be locked in making it irreversible. See the WTO"US Gambling"case between Antigua and the US for what I mean.) There is claimed to be an oversupply or people with advanced degrees they can put to work. But I think any increased sales there will be offset by the decline of the wages and the global economy due to an implosion of the economies in the developed countries. Any increases there will likely be offset by general declines in wages due to supply and demand. So, we're better off doing nothing, keeping things the way they are now.Also, the proposed changes will undercut recent immigrants and basically the whole middle class. So I think the 'efficiency gains' they claim will occur from falling wages and other labor costs in the developed countries, will cause an economic slump. And gains in Asia are pie in the sky due to the repressive governments and rigid class systems/caste systems in many countries that show no sign of relaxing hold. Even high skilled workers there will be trapped in a rut, even if they come to work in the developed countries, their pay will be only marginally higher here and their costs of living will skyrocket, leading to a net loss in remittances becuse the low paid workers will displace others and remittances home will fall.So, I think its a safe bet that the next wave in business is going to mean even fewer people will be able to afford cars. Large shifts in "services" (80% of all jobs) including the aforementioned large scale outsourcing by foreign temp firms exporting of slave-like working conditions in fields like IT, health care, perhaps even engineering, around the world using irreversible trade agreements.. will mean a general tightening of belts globally, except at the top.https://web.archive.org/web/20080313195303/http://www.afsc.org/trade-matters/issues/LaborMobility.pdfThe lure of easy money is strong, so everybody is hiding the push and when it happens, the media will look the other way. You wont read about it in the paper.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2017, 09:56:35 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on November 26, 2017, 08:35:06 pmThere is a difference between having a car with a lot of power + good handling and being able to drive it well. These large cars are like dog houses on wheels so you can't really see around you where the other traffic is at. The bussier the traffic/narrower the streets the bigger the disadvantage.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2017, 09:58:56 pm
content: Quote from: Dr. Frank on November 26, 2017, 08:17:13 pmThere are places where the speed limit is 80 MPH and it is commonly 70 MPH. But that isn't the point! Does a tree falling in a forest with no one around to hear the sound even make a sound? Similarly, if I'm blasting down the road and a cop doesn't see me, was I speeding? Who cares?I grew up in the muscle car era. Everything was FAST! Fast but evil handling. The cars wouldn't corner, the brakes were less than adequate and tires weren't speed rated. But the HP was cool! Unfortunately, Darwin had a field day in the '60s and early 70's.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2017, 10:03:20 pm
content: Quote from: cdev on November 26, 2017, 08:51:57 pmI'd wait a couple of years before drawing any conclusions. The recession we had since 2009 has turned the automobile industry upside down. In the NL for example the average age of the cars in use has climbed by a few years during the last recession. This means people have not been using/buying less cars but they just didn't buy new cars. Now the economy is doing better new car sales are going up a lot.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2017, 10:06:40 pm
content: Speed cameras have radar and OCR your license plate and will happily send you a ticket for going over the speed limit even if you are the only human being within 50 miles of it.Quote from: rstofer on November 26, 2017, 09:58:56 pm

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2017, 10:23:54 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on November 26, 2017, 08:31:35 pmThat clearly doesn't apply to all SUVs. We had a Chevy Trailblazer and it was pretty quick. The new Ford Explorers Police Interceptors are really quick. They also have Kevlar lined doors.https://www.ford.com/fordpoliceinterceptor/I don't actually know how they compare to the old Ford Crown Vic. With 365 HP, they should run pretty well.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2017, 10:26:27 pm
content: Quote from: cdev on November 26, 2017, 10:06:40 pmNo yet in California. In fact, the red light cameras are an endangered species and well on their way to extinction.The cameras are being discussed but, so far, not approved.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2017, 11:41:02 pm
content: How stable are new SUVs from rolling over? Stability is a recurrent problem for frequently top-heavy SUVs when they try to execute a turn rapidly.

author: brucehoult
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2017, 12:27:05 am
content: Quote from: apelly on November 25, 2017, 11:34:57 pmTesla Model S weighs between 1961 kg and 2250 kg depending on the battery size, and whether they are AWD (adds 80-90 kg) or have the performance package (adds 50 kg). The P75 is right on 2000 kg.That's a bit more than a Audi A6 (1690-1895 kg), Subaru Legacy (1613 kg) or other similar cars but it's far from double.

author: brucehoult
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2017, 12:42:57 am
content: Quote from: Dr. Frank on November 26, 2017, 06:00:29 pmExcept that isn't true.If you have well inflated low rolling resistance tyres and keep off the brakes then weight makes virtually no difference to fuel economy, within reasonable bounds. Aerodynamics are much more important.That word "invested" was an apt and important one. Yes, it takes more energy to accelerate the same car with an extra 500 kg in it to 130 km/h. But then when you take your foot off the gas it will coast much further too.In steady speed cruise you'd struggle to measure the difference at all.

author: brucehoult
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2017, 12:57:10 am
content: Quote from: GreyWoolfe on November 26, 2017, 09:08:48 pmWhat do you call a "decent car"?A Kia Rio is better than any European or Japanese car from 20 years ago, and costs US$13900. You can get a Hyundai Elantra for $13450.That's less than two months of after tax income at the proposed new minimum H1B salary!!Superb quality new cars have literally *never* been cheaper.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2017, 01:58:47 am
content: Quote from: cdev on November 26, 2017, 11:41:02 pmI have been told the Ford Explorer Police Interceptors handle very well. By some accounts, better than the older Crown Vics. Despite their height, the CG is pretty low. Then too, the manufacturers can stiffen the suspension a bit because a comfy ride isn't a requirement.Our Chevy Trailblazer handled very well. Again, the CG is pretty low. True, I never tried to slide it around a corner but for everyday driving it handled quite well. It never fell over while I was driving!There are NHTSA tests for impact and rollover on virtually every car sold in the US. The data is available online. Most SUVs get 4 out of 5 stars for rollover.You have to work pretty hard to get a car to roll over these days. Even if it does, the required roof support will help prevent the cab from collapsing. I don't think any of this stuff is covered by a guarantee. People have accidents and people die.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2017, 03:54:03 am
content: Key word "proposed". I think also Simon's expression "shambolic" would apply there.You have no idea. Save your money, don't get into debt.Do you know about the challenge to the visa quotas for L1 visas? Filed March 2016 with the WTO? It won't just effect services (80% of all jobs) in the US. Read up on India's "Trade facilitation agreement on services" proposal, the 1994 WTO GATS Agreement and the WTO GPA - govt procurement agrmt. and the Trade in Services Agreement. Or "TiSA" See Sanya Reid Smith in Oslo YouTube video talk. Just think global gig economy. A race to the bottom. Not a good situation for people in developed countries, we'll be in a much larger labor market, 7 billion people, not a paltry few hundred million at most. And many of those firms really want the business so much they will underbid all the Western firms. Thats what all the GATS driven privatization is all about. Putting millions of jobs on the poker table. Not a good thing for college grads looking for decent work.Quote from: brucehoult on November 27, 2017, 12:57:10 am

author: boffin
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 27, 2017, 04:17:03 am
content: Quote from: rstofer on November 26, 2017, 07:37:43 pmYou probably want to re-think that attitude. I'd rather be in a smartcar than a '58 Buick, and this video demonstrates exactly why.

author: Dr. Frank
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2017, 10:51:32 am
content: Quote from: brucehoult on November 27, 2017, 12:42:57 amThat's utter nonsense, as you definitely have to use the brakes in many situations, in the end to get the car to a stop.A heavier car will dissipate more energy, definitely.If you search for fuel saving techniques, you'll directly find that commonly accepted rule of thumb, that per 100kg, the car will consume 0,3l/100km more. So, there's one saving rule, to get rid of unnecessary parts inside the car to reduce its weight.I see that on my daily trip to and fro work. If I commute alone, my Diesel car typically consumes 4.4 l/100km, when my 80kg colleague joins the tour, it's directly 0.2l/100km more.Maybe, recuperation systems, which work favorably in pure electric cars, might reduce this value a bit.The reason for that effect, that you forgot to take into account, that heavier cars also imply higher friction in all moving/rotating parts, therefore these heavier cars consume more fuel even if the car is running at constant speed.Frank

author: brucehoult
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2017, 11:25:32 am
content: Quote from: Dr. Frank on November 27, 2017, 10:51:32 amI don't know how you drive, but I very seldom use the brakes above about 30 km/h. Even in traffic light to traffic light city traffic I'm usually just cruising up to the back of the line of cars at the next light as it accelerates away, without ever touching the brakes. When I do have to come to a stop from 100+ km/h, I again seldom touch the brakes above 30 km/h. The energy to be dissipated at that speed is less than 10% of the energy at 100 km/h, or 6% of the energy at 120 km/h.My old banger 1997 2.5l Grandwagon uses about 7.8 l/100 km with four people and baggage in it, cruising for a whole tankful (700 km) mostly at an indicated 109 km/h. That's got to be about 300 kg more weight than when it's just me in it. Your rule of thumb would suggest that I should therefore use about 7 l/100km when it's just me in it, or close to 800 km between fills. I can assure you that has never happened - maybe I get something like 7.7 instead of 7.8 (I absolutely accept that the fuel usage *will* be less with less weight). A difference of 0.8 l/100km would be obvious over the 650 km run between Auckland and Wellington -- 5.2 litres less! I've certainly never observed anything remotely like that.

author: Nusa
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2017, 01:24:30 pm
content: ^^^ In a sense, you're comparing apples and oranges. There are two completely different technologies being used for braking.In a traditional car, using the brakes is throwing all that energy away in the form of heat.In a proper electric car, the "brakes" are the electric motors being used as generators to reclaim and store most of the energy. (Traditional brakes are still there, but pretty much only get used in deliberately hard braking or emergency stop scenarios.)The latter system is obviously going to be more energy-efficient in nearly every situation, but it really shines in urban driving where stops are frequent. In highway driving, where braking is infrequent, it'll be less of a factor.

author: brucehoult
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2017, 01:37:04 pm
content: Quote from: Nusa on November 27, 2017, 01:24:30 pmI'm not sure which message you're replying to. Is it even possible to tell on this system?QuoteExactly.QuoteThis is absolutely true, except that the round trip efficiency is not all that high. If you drive the same way as before you'll get better efficiency, true, but driving so as to not need to brake is better. If you change your driving habits to be more aggressive because "it's all regenerated anyway" then you'll probably be less efficient.Note that aggressively and fast are not the same thing. It's interesting to use google maps' time estimates for journeys as a reference. A lot of people will tell you that:1) google's time estimates are optimistic, and2) car manufacturer's published fuel economy numbers are not achievable in reality.I generally beat google's estimates by 1-2 minutes in every hour, while also using less fuel than the official number for the vehicle. *Especially* in city rather than highway driving.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2017, 01:57:20 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on November 26, 2017, 08:31:35 pmPeople are switching for these cars, because road quality is shit. And they are intentionally messing up good roads with speed bumps. I have to drive through 4-5 of them on my way to work. And I drive on a main road. Also hitting the idiot law breaker cyclist is much more comfortable in an SUV.So I don't blame people for buying these cars. It is just one of those things, that make your life more comfortable, since your government failed you.And there is the Dacia Duster. Looks like a crossower, handles like a pig, accelerates like a snail, but you dont need to remove your hat while driving and only costs 24 months of pension.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2017, 03:33:33 pm
content: It appears that soon automobile tire tread will containsinglewalledcarbon nanotubes(SWCNTs) which are a very very strong fiber made from carbon at very high temperatures.Until recently they were so expensive they were used in heavy duty equipment/aircraft tires only.SWCNTs are part of the class of what are known as "engineered nanomaterials". (ENMs) many of which are dangerous or of unknown safety. (We know CNTs are dangerous)However, its my understanding that the addition of engineered nanomaterials to tire rubber has accomplished and significantly is likely to still accomplish more substantial reductions in rolling resistance but perhaps the future gains may well come at a cost in human health for those who breathe the dust coming off those tires. They may even already be in some tires. Its hard to say, rubber manufacturers aren't in the habit of telling us what they put into tires except when forced to.(This is one of many reasons why if I was a parent I would not want my child playing sports on artificial turf made with crumb rubber. Especially outside of the EU it is likely to have a lot of dangerous materials in it, many of which will likely remain dangerous for the foreseeable future.)

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2017, 04:02:20 pm
content: Quote from: NANDBlog on November 27, 2017, 01:57:20 pmVersatility, pure and simple.I drive my SUV offroad, on beaches to go fishing, towing, product collection and deliveries and 1000 km trips as it's cheaper on fuel than my petrol sedan for trips.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2017, 04:17:03 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on November 27, 2017, 04:02:20 pmOff-road driving in Europe is simply illegal in most countries. Yes, there are some dirt roads leading to remote places.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2017, 04:23:38 pm
content: Quote from: NANDBlog on November 27, 2017, 04:17:03 pmNot if you own the property or have the landowners permission.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2017, 09:08:47 pm
content: I guess there is also a difference between SUVs for off-road including the ability to lock the differential and SUVs which are just large and clunky but would suck just as bad off-road as any front or rear wheel driven car.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2017, 09:25:17 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on November 27, 2017, 04:23:38 pmYes. Though, it must be some off-roading, in a 200sqm garden or through a farmland or in a forest between the trees.Just put this to perspective: Belgium's population density is 120x Australia's. A 50 hectare land is considered very very big for a farmland. There are no remote areas, ranches, and the like. There will be exceptions in Spain or France, but that is not the usual. There is 5 million km of road, and 2 million km railway in EU28. It is almost half the area of Australia, and 12 times the length of paved road.95% or EU SUVs never leave the road. They dont even have locking differential, so they would be awful off roader anyway.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2017, 10:57:19 pm
content: Quote from: NANDBlog on November 27, 2017, 09:25:17 pmYou'd wonder how your primary producers could survive.Oh, that's right, subsidies...........

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2017, 11:39:53 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on November 27, 2017, 10:57:19 pmYou dont need to wonder, there are very good statistics avaliablehttp://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php/Farm_structure_statisticsMost of the farms are organic, providing a more sustainable future. Think about this, USA and Australia, have huge farms providing low quality wheat and corn, EU has small farms making special wine and cheese. I can walk into a store, and choose from 20 different type of bread, half of them will be whole grain. I eat a bread in the USA, and it felt like rubber, and tasted like nothing. It's like the "whole foods" on every corner, except we dont make a big deal about it, because healty food is normal, right?I dont know how Aussies do it.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2017, 11:43:34 pm
content: Quote from: NANDBlog on November 27, 2017, 11:39:53 pmNor much do I, I'm Kiwi !

author: brucehoult
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 28, 2017, 12:11:42 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on November 27, 2017, 09:08:47 pmIt used to be that you needed at least a pretty aggressive limited slip diff, if not a locking diff. But the former sucks energy even in on-road use, and the latter has to be manually activated and you'll break something if you drive on tarmac with it activated.But these days open diffs are fine because the ABS/stability control system can use the brakes (in fractions of a second) to manage any wheels which are temporarily without grip and spinning.Even something like the little Subaru XV/Crosstrek is surprisingly capable off-road, while getting excellent economy on road.See especially starting from about 4 minutes in. With open diffs. With normal road tyres. With a CVT.

author: Nusa
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 28, 2017, 12:40:47 am
content: That video is cringeworthy. Those tracks are comparable to many fire roads, and the Subaru was having trouble due mainly to it's low ground clearance. It doesn't even qualify as off-road, in my opinion.There's no substitute for ground clearance, greater suspension travel, and more appropriate tires for the job. Pretty standard stuff for full-size SUV's or pickup trucks.

author: brucehoult
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 28, 2017, 01:36:04 am
content: Quote from: Nusa on November 28, 2017, 12:40:47 amIt's not trying to be a Landcruiser or F150. It's a family shopping basket that gets US 39 mpg on the highway (6 l/100km, 47 mpg UK). And can cope with bad roads, snow etc.As for ground clearance, 220 mm (8.7") is not bad. Here's a little comparison:8.1 Lexus GX, Acura RDX8.2 Audi Q5, BMW X5, Lexus RX, Honda CRV8.4 Jaguar F-Pace, Chevy Colorado, GMC Canyon8.5 Porsche Cayenne8.7 Subaru XV, Subaru Outback, Subaru Forester, Landrover Discovery8.8 Jeep Cherokee Trailhawk, Mazda CX-9, Nissan Titan XD, Chevy Silverado,8.9 Toyota Landcruiser, Lexus LX, Nissan Frontier9.1 GMC Sierra9.2 Nissan Armada, Infiniti QX80, RAM 15009.4 Toyota Tacoma9.6 Audi Q7, Toyota 4Runner9.8 Range Rover Velar10.0 Toyota Sequoia, Jeep Wrangler10.3 RAM 150 Rebel10.8 Jeep Grand Cherokee Trailhawk10.9 Range Rover Sport11.1 Land Rover Discovery11.2 Ford F-150 Raptor11.3 Land Rover Sport11.6 Range Rover17.24 Mercedes-Benz G550So in fact there are several pickup trucks with less ground clearance, and quite a few with only 0.1 or 0.2 inches more.