I may have found a legit need for a .."batteriser" - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / beginners

author: epigramx
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 07, 2019, 06:20:34 pm
content: The G700 mouse seemed to mysteriously kill rechargable batteries fast; I always attributed it to bad batteries or a hungry mouse.However today I noticed two important things.a) The G700, while on circuit, reads 1.13V out of those "dead" batteries (and 1.35V when they are full).b) The Wii Remote which takes the same batteries (2 x AA (the mouse gets 1)) finds them 50% fullSo I wonder if that mouse just has a very needy circuit that can't work with 50% full recharchables.What if, a regulator that turns them all near 1.5V/1.35V would work?

author: Audioguru
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 07, 2019, 07:51:06 pm
content: You forgot to tell us if the batteries are obsolete Ni-Cad or modern Ni-MH types.You also forgot to tell us if they are good Name-Brand or cheap ebay Chinese ones.What charger manufacturer and model number do you use?I use modern North American Energizer alkaline batteries in my Microsoft mouse and keyboard. They last for months.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 07, 2019, 07:59:17 pm
content: G700 undercharges NiMH batteries, especially when they were used for some and are somewhat worn. Just using external charger with the same battery may give you 2x of run time. Not to say Yuasa LSD battery which comes with it is not that good. BTW 1.13V is not 50% of the charge left. More like 5-10%. And yes, it's power hungry.

author: epigramx
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 07, 2019, 10:37:57 pm
content: Quote from: Audioguru on January 07, 2019, 07:51:06 pmNo I didn't mr passive aggressive. I didn't know you needed that info.Quote from: Audioguru on January 07, 2019, 07:51:06 pmBoth and both. Same behavior.

author: epigramx
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 07, 2019, 10:39:41 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on January 07, 2019, 07:59:17 pmNah, it's same with an external normal or fast charger.How do you explain the Wii Remote powers on with the same "dead" batteries and reports them ~50% full?update: The only logical explanation is a sketchy G700 either by design or specific case or wearupdate: And mind you, the Wii Remote is not fooling around. If it says 50%, it keeps working.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 07, 2019, 11:03:22 pm
content: Quote from: epigramx on January 07, 2019, 10:39:41 pmI myself verified that when G700 is charged by itself, battery charge is enough for 1 day or a bit more (12+ hours of use). If I take it out and charge it in Opus BT-3100, mouse will run around 2 days.QuoteG700 of course could shut down a bit later but if you look at battery discharge curves, at 1.13V there is only a little bit of energy left. Battery voltage drops gradually till about 1.20-1.15V (light load) when only little energy is left and then voltage drops rapidly. I can only say that Wii remote displays charge level incorrectly. And actually it shuts down at around 1.10V IIRC. Voltage can rise a bit after load is removed.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 08, 2019, 02:39:06 am
content: By all means try it for yourself - but the general consensus (as I have come to understand it) is that the Batteroo sleeve (we have to call it by its allowed legal name)maygive you alittleextra life past the unassisted cut-off - but ......* This is contingent on the Batteroo sleeve NOT being fitted from the fully charged state, but only after the battery has drained to the point where the device has refused to operate.Reason: The Batteroo sleeve, while very efficient, still has a power overhead whenever it is in circuit. This will be wasting energy at any time the native battery voltage is sufficient to run the device. If the Batteroo sleeve is fitted with a fully charged battery, there is the question as to whether this additional energy usage would result in the battery having a shorter overall run time than when used without any "assistance".* Once the battery discharge has reached the point where it cannot run the device natively, there is not a lot of energy left in it. The necessary conversion effort by the Batteroo sleeve would result in significant current draw from the battery, resulting in a significantly increased rate of decline. It would depend on the device, of course, but it is questionable as to how much additional run time you would get - and whether it was worth the hassle.There is one use case of the Batteroo sleeve that has been conceded as being beneficial - and that is where you need the device to run consistently until the battery is drained, at which point the device just stops dead. This is more noticeable in device that have electric motors, for example. They run at (or near) full speed until the battery cannot supply the Batteroo sleeve with enough energy for it to operate - and they just stop. In normal battery use, they just getting slower and slower. There has been a report of this sustained performance being beneficial in some classes of toys.

author: spec
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 08, 2019, 05:35:34 am
content: Sometimes it helps with old batteries to put a high value electrolytic capacitor across them to reduce the apparent internal resistance. I have often done this on wall clocks to extend battery life and also on a portable radio.

author: Red Squirrel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 08, 2019, 07:06:51 pm
content: Some devices (like wii remotes) are very picky about input voltage. Especially ones that take multiple in series as it adds up. A non rechargeable alkaline AA is 1.5v nominal while a rechargeable is 1.3v IIRC. So right off the bat, the remote thinks the battery is at a lower capacity due to less voltage. I could very well see something like batteroo help for this case. It's not so much that you're "squeezing more energy" out of the battery, but rather, tricking the device into not going into "low battery" mode and shutting off.Now what I'd like to see is more devices designed to take 18650 cells directly. If they were designed to accept that voltage then you get the benefit of rechargeable without the downside.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 08, 2019, 07:59:09 pm
content: Quote from: epigramx on January 07, 2019, 10:39:41 pmI'd tend to think that 50% estimated remaining charge at 1.13V for a NiMh battery is a bit optimistic.That said, no two devices using AA batteries are designed the same. At all.The designers may have chosen a completely different cut-off voltage, either as an explicit design choice or for limitations of their power supply section they decided to compromise with. As to the estimated state of charge, again this is largely based on heuristics. NiMh AA batteries can typically have anywhere from 2000mAh to 3000mAh capacity for instance. Their discharge curve also depends on the current draw. Designers have to settle for a middle ground (plus, usually settle for the lowest cost possible, sometimes impacting the lowest input voltage the device will run at.)I personally have always considered 0.9V to 1V a reasonable cut-off voltage for NiMh batteries, especially for moderate current draws, which is also what Energizer recommends in this note:http://data.energizer.com/pdfs/nickelmetalhydride_appman.pdfObviously many designers like to cut off way above this point, some out of compromise, others because they are dead sure this is what needs to be done. Point is, it all depends on the application. In some cases, you can lose anywhere between 10% and 20% if you cut off too early - which may or may not matter. (Still kind of doubt the 50% at 1.13V... but about 20% may be right.)Technically, there's much less choice of step-up regulators (often needed in those devices) that work down to 0.9V, so this is also one compromise point.

author: Kasper
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2019, 06:30:33 am
content: When the batteries are in the wii remote and it says 50%, what is the battery voltage?The batteries might have different voltages when they are in different devices. If battery has higher voltage in wii, there might be less current draw in wii.

author: BrianHG
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2019, 05:47:04 pm
content: Imbalanced batteries can also mess up your expected usage life per charge by a large factor as one battery has extra voltage as your second cell accelerates to it's 'cliff dive' to below 1v at the end of it's capacity.

author: Audioguru
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2019, 10:00:11 pm
content: My wireless mouse draws an extremely low current so that ordinary cheap alkaline batteries last for months but your mouse draws such a high current that you need rechargeable batteries and need to charge them often. Either your mouse is defective or it has a very poor design.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 09, 2019, 10:10:51 pm
content: Quote from: Audioguru on January 09, 2019, 10:00:11 pmG700 was a top end laser gaming mouse. Battery life sacrificed for maximum performance. On the other hand, your mouse sacrifices performance for maximum battery life.

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2019, 10:59:52 pm
content: QuoteI smell excuses.I am thinking it's more like the G700 is a top end gaming device. Hence, it might take too much time and effort to optimize such a short run, niche product for low sleep current.Designing and coding for low sleep current is device specific. It is one of those things a consumer takes for granted, but it is a total PITA and requires some work with the datasheet. You can't just code it in C with your favorite compiler. There's a big nest of decisions that has to be made, correctly, starting from the start.Even if the one mouse draws 10x the current while in use, that wouldn't necessarily be noticeable over the life of the batteries. If there's a huge difference you can bet it's the sleep current.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 09, 2019, 11:12:40 pm
content: Quote from: KL27x on January 09, 2019, 10:59:52 pmIt's not about sleep current but about low lag and accurate tracking. Sensor and wireless transfer eats a ton of power. This mouse eats a lot when moved but can last very long when just stays idle. Running from only single AA battery also contributes to low run time. Also it's not like it's a low volume product. BTW Logitech did not have any issue simultaneously selling mouses which run for 6 months at lower price.

author: helius
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2019, 11:15:47 pm
content: Quote from: Red Squirrel on January 08, 2019, 07:06:51 pmFor the few devices that do this, you still aren't forced to use alkalines. Nickel-Zinc cells have similar energy capacity to NiMH, are rechargeable for similar number of cycles (500-800), and have a nominal voltage of 1.5 V. You don't need a Batteriser.

author: epigramx
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 12, 2019, 11:23:42 am
content: Quote from: wraper on January 07, 2019, 11:03:22 pmbut then there's this claim

author: Buriedcode
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 12, 2019, 07:46:35 pm
content: I'm calling bullshit on that claim.For a start it implies, well, blatantly shows that alkaline batteries - I'm assuming its a standard AA here - have ~900mAH capacity. The few I have tested (lidl, Aldi, Sainsburys) have been roughly 2400mAH.The blue line is believable, and I would guess fairly realistic given its capacity of 1900mAH. What it doesn't show however is the current draw. I'm not sure exactly what chemistry those enloop are but I'massumingits NiMH that have a nominal voltage of ~1.2V. For it to remain flat for what looks like ~1.3V+, along with the capacity approaching max, I'm guessing thats a current draw of <100mA.The graph misrepresents alkaline batteries either by using a different current draw (would have to be>1A) that makes the comparison incorrect. Or.. they've used a discharge curve from azinc-carboncell which generally have 800mAH capacity and are rarely used. Duracell use this trick in their TV ads "when compared to AA zinc carbon cells". So they compared two completely different chemistries, that have wildly different capacities and discharge curves, and claim that their alkaline cells are superior.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 13, 2019, 11:26:31 am
content: Quote from: KL27x on January 09, 2019, 10:59:52 pmIt's not "excuses", wraper is absolutely right: it's deliberate design decisions.In normal wireless optical mice, the sensor goes into sleep mode after a period of mouse inactivity (somewhere in the ballpark of 10 secs, IIRC from my last wired mouse), waking up briefly every 1/4 second or so to check for motion, and waking up if there is. (You can see this because the LED starts a slow blink.) The downside is that if you haven't moved the mouse in a bit, then there's a delay before the mouse pointer actually starts moving. In normal desktop use, this is absolutely no problem and essentially unnoticeable. Additionally, the wireless receivers use low-power modes.In gaming mice, where a 1/4 sec lag could cost you a shot, wireless mice totally forgo sleep, and stay fully awake the whole time so that they react instantly. On top of this, they use faster sensors, which use more power to begin with. Finally, they use different wireless that uses higher polling rates and no sleep. And that's why wireless gaming mice have miserable battery life compared to their regular counterparts.I have the non-gaming equivalent of the G700, the Performance MX. I do notice the tiny little lag when waking it from slumber. (I can't observe it directly, since the Performance MX and G700 do not use an LED light source, but infrared lasers.)

author: epigramx
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 13, 2019, 09:06:26 pm
content: Quote from: Buriedcode on February 12, 2019, 07:46:35 pmIn any case the graph I replied to doesn't disprove my claim either, in fact it can strengthen it since itself shows that certain batteries can stay above 1.15v for a long time which seems to be the problem with the original test (being < 1.15v).

author: jeffheath
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 13, 2019, 09:30:35 pm
content: Quote from: epigramx on February 12, 2019, 11:23:42 amNice troll but the batterizer is a dead meme

author: epigramx
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 14, 2019, 08:26:11 am
content: Quote from: jeffheath on February 13, 2019, 09:30:35 pmThat implies the Wii Remote is voodoo magic since it can go on for hours after the G700 considers the battery dead.update: Btw, barely on topic but it seems the crappy switches of the G700 were keeping it alive/wasting its energy too. After I ..switched them with new ones and leaving it overnight, it remained on 3 bars (it used to waste every single time).unless resoldering it also helped

author: epigramx
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2019, 03:50:47 pm
content: Not exactly about a "batteriser" discussion but here's a video portion related to that mouse being terrible with power management:https://youtu.be/i4nYqfZlnMY?t=1409

author: hermitengineer
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 20, 2019, 08:08:56 pm
content: Quote from: KL27x on January 09, 2019, 10:59:52 pmI've at least played with an optical tracker chip for a mouse, so I can say this much: It's all in how you program the chip. You can program it to go to sleep after a variable amount of time, or not at all. It's possible that the "gaming mouse" never goes to sleep because then it can't react to sudden movements as you suddenly have to maneuver the cursor over the new enemy who just appeared. In default mode, the chip goes through various levels of sleep when it doesn't sense movement, cutting its sampling rate by maybe 5x after a second or two of stillness at first and then dropping to just a couple per second after enough time elapsed.So both a "gaming mouse" and a standard mouse may even be using the same chip, just programming it differently.

author: SparkyFX
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 22, 2019, 11:07:53 am
content: Quote from: hermitengineer on November 20, 2019, 08:08:56 pmThat's probably the whole point. OTOH most of these mice works precise enough to no noticeably difference once in operation. Maybe there are high noise environments in which more packets would result in better performance or such, but after all most is imho marketing wank and you pay for the looks and brand.However, as others already pointed out, the power supplies in these devices are either smart enough and already contain a boost converter and have a rechargeable battery-friendly cut-off voltage, so adding another boost converter in line is not beneficial, or can not be run with rechargeables. You sooner or later have to change batteries with these wireless mice, so i don't think it might be a game changer, especially if it limits you to non-rechargeable types and takes a toll when used with fully charged batteries.