Is it me or... - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Alex Eisenhut
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 05, 2019, 12:31:35 am
content: Lots of vitriol in here lately it seems to me. How about a nice (t/l)ame subject...Is it me or do new electrical countertop appliances have shorter and shorter power cords? I just bought a new hot water kettle. The old one was starting to smell like burnt plastic every time I used it, and the new one has temperature settings and boils quietly.But the cord on the old one was already annoyingly short and the new one even more so. Serves me right for having a big counter I guess.But at what point do we balance out cutting manufacturing costs and just paying a dollar more for 6 extra inches of power cord??

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 05, 2019, 12:39:03 am
content: I assumed that shorter lengths are to match regulations. A friend of mine recently did kitchen remodel, and he was forced to install outlets every 3 ft along the counter top length. Apparently that's a regulation for new and remodeled houses, and it would not pass inspection otherwise.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 05, 2019, 12:41:42 am
content: I have a small worktop, so I often prefer short leads. Except when an instrument is on the floor, when I prefer a long lead with a 90degree plug.(And there does seem to be an increased volume of vitriol and wacko "I don't understand it so it must be a lying conspiracy" threads)

author: tsman
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 05, 2019, 12:41:56 am
content: Quote from: Alex Eisenhut on January 05, 2019, 12:31:35 amYeah. There does seem to be a lot of not very civil arguing and name calling lately. Some of the topics I just look at and gobut I just don't read or reply to them.https://xkcd.com/386/for some users here.Quote from: Alex Eisenhut on January 05, 2019, 12:31:35 amHmm. I always thought that was because there were accidents before where a kid or something yanks on the excess power cable that dangled over the edge and pulls the device off the counter top. My kettle has a excess cable storage arrangement in the bottom of the base and tells you in the instructions that it should be set so you have exactly the right amount of cable needed.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 05, 2019, 12:43:03 am
content: Quote from: Alex Eisenhut on January 05, 2019, 12:31:35 amI thought it was me, but you unfortunately seem to notice it too.I think the power cords on hot water kettles are intentionally short. That way they can be tucked away neatly near the back of the countertop without cables and no place to hide them. An additional benefit would be that it's harder to move to shimmy the thing towards the edge or drop it completely.

author: Alex Eisenhut
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 05, 2019, 12:57:11 am
content: Quote from: ataradov on January 05, 2019, 12:39:03 amCan you see what's wrong with this outlet?Yup, my place... that's quality.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 05, 2019, 12:59:58 am
content: Quote from: Alex Eisenhut on January 05, 2019, 12:57:11 amMay be that's why they want them every 3 ft. So that you always have one not blocked by anything.

author: Alex Eisenhut
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 05, 2019, 01:01:26 am
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on January 05, 2019, 12:43:03 amSomething changed along the way, my 1990s Braun food processor has like 3 feet of cord and a place to store it on the base. But then that's not the same power level.

author: LapTop006
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 05, 2019, 07:29:58 am
content: Quote from: Alex Eisenhut on January 05, 2019, 12:31:35 amI wonder if that's not pretty much it, copper has gone up in price, and the manufacturers don't want to pay for a longer cord, or even pay more for the same cord, so it keeps getting shorter.

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 05, 2019, 07:58:58 am
content: Geez.. what a coincidence, just disgruntled after my kettle's cable is way too short that I can't put it at the kitchen's table, and had to lift it with it's own box (temporary) so the plug can reach into the mains outlet which is only 60 cm height.The kettle's base is locked with the evil bolts that only can be opened with triangle head screw driver, just don't have time yet to buy it yet, so I can replace with longer cable.Just lets the photos to tell the story, the stainless steel ruler is standard 30cm/12 inches long.

author: Avacee
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 05, 2019, 08:16:41 am
content: Quote from: Alex Eisenhut on January 05, 2019, 12:31:35 amI was thinking exactly the same after replacing a toaster and hand blender over Christmas - also the new power cords are quite stiff and feel considerably cheaper. Have you noticed this too?Not a problem with the toaster since coiling the cable and a couple of cable-ties puts it out of the way.After use the blender would reach the sink so the worst could be easily cleaned off - now it's a few inches too short so I made up an ~10 inch long extension cable which is left permanently in the socket.But what is really irritating is that it no longer conveniently fits nicely in the previous gap in the cupboard as the stiff cable wants to uncoil and knock over everything; alas, SWMBO won't let me put on a flexible cable until the warranty has expiredBoth were branded products bought from John Lewis (so probably genuine) but I'd have happily paid a bit more for a slightly longer, flexible cable.I blame the accountants for knowing the cost of everything and the value of nothing.

author: Gregg
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2019, 01:15:53 am
content: The manufacturers are only thinking about your safety (yeah, sure); the shorter cables may be made with copper clad aluminum that would overheat if made longer.Nothing new here, it’s the wave of the future. After consumers pay attention to cheap short cables in great enough numbers, some new high end models with longer real copper cables will appear at a much higher price and many new “features” to embed unforeseen planned obsolescence.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2019, 01:47:41 am
content: Yup, the same thing happened to me a few years ago.Quote from: ataradov on January 05, 2019, 12:39:03 am

author: langwadt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2019, 01:49:26 am
content: Quote from: Alex Eisenhut on January 05, 2019, 12:31:35 amthe cord is short so a kid can't reach it and pull it off the table

author: djacobow
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2019, 02:09:45 am
content: Related to the short cords things are the rules I hear more and more often:-- this appliance should never be plugged into an extension cord-- power strips should never be plugged into an extension cord-- don't even *think* about daisy-chaining power stripsThere is never a word about making sure an extension cord or power strip has adequate ampacity for the load, just these silly rules that make it seem like breaking them is like crossing the beams in Ghostbusters. And it's all doubly stupid because people break the rules, then nothing happens, and then they think the rule is dumb and can be broken in any circumstance.What would be better would be the slightest, littlest, tiniest bit of electrical education. But we can't have nice things.

author: MrMobodies
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2019, 02:45:25 am
content: I think mine is about 1m long which just about reaches.Some of years ago I got a couple of 1m 13amp 4 way Masterplug extension lead and plugged it in the kettle but the cable and plug got hot so I left it plugged in the wall.A couple months ago I brought some 5m 3x1.5mm cords to replace the 30 amp cords that were in the ten way extension sockets that I brought second hand on Ebay.I tried the kettle on them as an experiment to see how much it will heat up but cable and the plug didn't get warm or hot at all.

author: ajb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2019, 03:00:28 am
content: Quote from: djacobow on January 06, 2019, 02:09:45 amTo be fair, many people are not equipped to accurately judge the suitability of wiring to its application. That's why the rules are stated so simplistically, because telling people "don't do X" is a heck of a lot easier than saying "don't do X, unless you've verified that Y is less than Z and A is at least B but not more than C, and the environment will always be L, M, N, and O". It's the same reason that building and electrical codes are created, because you can't expect contractors and building inspectors to all be engineers, and even if they were, they don't have time to sit down and determine whether this particular wire should be 10AWG or 12AWG using first principles and an old HP calculator. Straightforward rules, even if they are overly conservative, are way easier to enforce, and straightforward prohibitions are easier to defend in case of lawsuit than complex (if more accurate) warnings about behavior that may or may not cause a problem.

author: Gregg
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2019, 03:19:40 am
content: Cords to small appliances reminds me of my very first electrical experience. It was early 1950s and I was about 3 ½ to 4 years old and about as curious as could be expected. The family was at the breakfast table on which was an old fashioned toaster, the trapezoid shaped type with two doors that one had to manually turn the toast; I don’t think it even had a switch. The cord was cotton braid covered with possibly asbestos adjacent to the conductors; the two pronged non polarized plug was one of the Bakelite type with a loose thin fish paper covering the two screw terminals. The cord was across the table and plugged into the wall receptacle.After the toast was done, my father asked me to unplug the toaster, which I did; but being a curious little boy, I wondered if the prongs of the plug were hot and touched them. I burned my finger, they were so hot.My father’s response was, “don’t touch that, it is the hottest part.” That didn’t seem correct to me but I probably wasn’t articulate enough at that age to question my father. I remember thinking that maybe the wall was in danger of charring like toast burning if it really did get that hot.All in all it is a wonder that we all have survived childhood and can post our experiences and advice for others to possibly learn something and maybe avoid some smoke and sparks.

author: schmitt trigger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2019, 03:56:48 am
content: I see a business opportunity here.Perhaps an audiophool grade extension cord.With hydrogen-free palladium-plated copper wire.Which will allow the electrons to flow freely, such that your coffee is brewed perfectly enhancing all the flavors and aromas.Kickstarter anyone?

author: djacobow
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2019, 04:47:29 am
content: Quote from: ajb on January 06, 2019, 03:00:28 amOh, I understand the motivation for this kind of simplicity, but am only pointing out that it does come at a cost.In left-hand drive countries, turning right is less trouble than turning left. Given how many people get into accidents trying to make left turns, it stands to reason that we should just outlaw left turns, especially when three rights are just as good. We'll also save on turn signals. Simplicity!

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2019, 04:55:18 am
content: Quote from: ataradov on January 05, 2019, 12:39:03 amThat may incur serious cost as most likely it is required each of the outlets to have its own power feed from the breaker panel, or two of them if it is a twin outlet.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 06, 2019, 05:15:28 am
content: Quote from: ajb on January 06, 2019, 03:00:28 amVery true.I have told a couple of people I know who like to "think for themselves" that these black and white rules are for simplicity and safety. They know I understand more about the details and that you can dosomethings that are outside those rules. I haven't tried to explain anything to them because they mightfeellike they understand and do something silly - so they just ask me. I'm quite OK with that.

author: radar_macgyver
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2019, 06:41:37 am
content: I prefer the shorter cords since there's less mess on the countertop, but my older house lacks the spaced outlets, forcing me to use extension cords and power strips, and that brings me back to a messy countertop. Yay progress.Quote from: schmitt trigger on January 06, 2019, 03:56:48 amJust don't install the cable backwards, that will cause the electrons to flow back into the wall and leave you with alkaline coffee.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2019, 09:43:51 am
content: Older appliances had this "circular" storage space for excess of the cord.With a watercooker going 2kW that might give heating issues (coil).I also prefer the short cord, more hygienic. Looks like you don't need longer cords but moving the wall outlets. I have replaced some of my Shuko outlets with the 21st century Wieland GST18i3 system.

author: macboy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2019, 05:15:58 pm
content: Quote from: Alex Eisenhut on January 05, 2019, 12:31:35 amThis is certainly the result of some law/regulation. My kettle (15 yr old) has a cord so short that I need to rotate it so that the spout faces outward, just to prevent the steam from going under the cabinets and damaging them! Then the handle is facing the wall, so when it boils, I need to carefully reach around the hot stainless steel body to grab it. I suppose it does prevent a child from grabbing a cord and pulling a kettle full of boiling water onto himself.

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2019, 10:26:46 pm
content: Quote from: Gregg on January 06, 2019, 01:15:53 amThat's not how it works... resistance is per unit length, so a longer cable would dissipate more power but it would also dissipate it over a larger area, so the power density and thus temperature rise remains the same.Unless you coil the cable tightly, is that what you're referring to?

author: Gregg
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2019, 06:10:48 am
content: Quote from: amyk on January 10, 2019, 10:26:46 pmYou are correct if the load is strictly resistive, the cable insulation can really dissipate the heat from the additional resistance and strands are not broken form the easier to break aluminum core of the wire, However in the real world substituting copper clad aluminum of the same cross section as copper especially if the copper was already at maximum safe current limits makes whatever is being powered receive a lower voltage and some things just draw more current while purely resistive loads like a toaster will need to run longer to achieve the same results.Something like a mixer may draw a much higher current for a much longer time with a relatively high resistance cord and cause insulation breakdown whereas a shorter cord with less resistance may have a significantly longer interval before failure.

author: Wolfram
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2019, 10:48:48 am
content: If there is a limit on the cord length for kettles, it will be in IEC 60335-2-15, which is relevant EU safety standard. Unfortunately I don't have access to this standard, but the index of the standard is open access:https://webstore.iec.ch/p-preview/info_iec60335-2-15%7Bed5.0%7Den.pdf

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2019, 12:48:39 pm
content: What vitriol? I think this forum has been fairly peaceful recently. There's the odd troll post here and there but the moderators have been fairly good at dealing with it. I think people forget what this place used to be like around five years ago, when mojochan, dannyf and zapta used to spew far left and right bullshit everywhere.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2019, 01:20:42 pm
content: for kitchen stuff I completely hate cords unless its on something permament.Say you have a bread machine, blender, or other medium to small sized appliance (like a vegetable chopper/salsa maker) that you don't use every day. You need to wrap the cord every single fucking time.For a long time I have been plotting to make some kind of POWERCON or other connector on all the appliances in the kitchen and use them on a reel that hides under the cabinets.Some devices are supposed to be time savers, say a mini-food processor that is useful for making a cup of chilli or mayonaise (working capacity about 1.5 cups). It's not useful enough to be a permament presence on the counter top, and it wins over a kitchen knife in speed. It's more cleaning but fine.However you need to wrap a power cord around it like 10 times before you can store the thing. It's preposterous. I hate doing it. If you stow it where you need to bend down there is no good way to situate it without the cord unraveling on you and going all over the place. Something must be done.I feel the same way about the blender wand, you need a decent long cord on it, say if you want to blend soup, but then storing it is a hassle.If you do it 100 times a year it gets really really old.Like you came home from work, stopped at the grocery store, did the line, unpacked, sorted, etc.. now time to deal with the extension cord again. If you are tried there is a chance you will end up stopping at the deli to buy a sandwich rather then making something healthy just because you need to deal with the cord after 10 hours away from home doing all that crap.Shorter cables on big appliances like microwaves and toaster ovens are retarded though, you want to be able to place them in a way to maximize countertop space. There is no god damn reason to put a short cord on that since no one is carrying a microwave out of a shelf every morning. I have no problem putting a adhesive cable holder thing on the back of a microwave to put a loop of wire around it after its positioned properly.I expanded my kitchen to the god damn porch so I can have more appliances out in a easy to clean way (i.e. big mixer, pizza oven, microwave, toaster oven are all on the porch). Then I can have a blender, food processor, crock pot, electric skillet out when I need to use em with little effort. And cleaning is easier if its all spread out since you can scrub in big sweeping motions with your hand. Confined space cleaning makes me insane, your range of hand motion is restricted to like 15% of the natural movement and you can't get any momentum going on the rag or scowering pad and you end up with sore hands.And I will tell you why they put short cords on heavy appliances, cost, its plain as day. I replaced the cable on my toaster oven so I can use the old one in my shop as a parts heater and I instantly noticed it was short but they had to legally use heavy gauge copper. When I just randomly picked up a replacement cord off the shelf it was twice as long an weighed about as much as the 3 foot cord on the toaster oven. They don't want to pay for copper. Had to search far and wide to find a cord of similar quality but longer length to the one they put on the oven.That thing is all about cost, in order to clean it without being a fucking ant-eater I had to make custom tools like little dowels with steel wood that straps on to them to actually clean it nice around the heating element shields which are like stamped sheet metal pressed into the chassis. I don't think it was even possible to clean without taking the back of it off and using special tools to poke at it with at it with strange angles.I don't like making money at the expense of my hands in regards to ergonomics. I know too many people with messed up hands from digging or even fine repetitive work like crimping. Same thing with heavy grease scrubbing. It's like you are making or saving money at the expense of your ligaments and joints (its not even the muscles that are taking the beating). Otherwise wives would have jacked hands.Yes most people would freak out when they see how many very similar precise looking fine hand tools like pliers and cutters I own. If its not the major muscle groups like quads and triceps that hurt after a hard days work then your probably not equipped with the correct tools.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2019, 06:46:49 pm
content: I hate short cords, I regularly replace the original cord with nice long ones. I'm not worried about kid safety as I don't have kids, if I did I'd just tuck the cord back out of the way.

author: fourtytwo42
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2019, 07:41:42 pm
content: Careful what you wish for or someone will develop wireless worktops for power transfer frying our minds with several Kw of RF, OTH could be suitable treatment for said trolls

author: radar_macgyver
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 12, 2019, 05:17:50 am
content: Quote from: fourtytwo42 on January 11, 2019, 07:41:42 pmOh I dunno, my induction cooktop effortlessly transfers 1.8 kW of power to my frying pan and I haven't grown any extra limbs. Yet.

author: G7PSK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 12, 2019, 02:42:46 pm
content: Not just kitchen equipment every power tool seems to have shorter leads these days, even soldering irons leads are getting to short for ease of use. Maybe that is to push you into buying cordless tools but the chargers on those have shorter leads now,also just got two new vehicles and both those have smaller fuel tanks reducing the range to just under 300 miles on one and just over 260 on the other,is this a conspiracy to remove range anxiety on the forthcoming electric versions, I cannot see me buying an electric truck as it wont have the range I need and takes too long to recharge.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 12, 2019, 07:47:35 pm
content: I think the cords on most things are getting shorter for the same reason food products are magically shrinking, a "gallon" of ice cream isn't really a gallon anymore, they shrink just a tiny amount every now and then to hide cost increases, blame marketing types for that, personally I notice and find it insulting but whatever.260-300 miles doesn't sound unusual, that's about the range I get from my Volvos and they're 1984 and 1990 so I really doubt EV range anxiety was on their minds at the time. A more likely reason for the smaller tanks on newer vehicles is fuel economy mandates. To get the economy they make efforts to shed weight. Fuel is heavy so by making the tank smaller they can reduce the weight of the vehicle. Surely you can still get models with larger tanks though, my friend's work truck has two tanks, I believe the second one was an option they ordered it with.

author: Alex Eisenhut
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 12, 2019, 10:03:44 pm
content: Quote from: radar_macgyver on January 12, 2019, 05:17:50 amUgh. When I moved I bought a new stove. For some reason I stubbornly stuck to calrod coils... I shouda bought an induction top since in general I have good quality pots and pans.Thanks for reminding me that not only do I have a short kettle cord, but also my stove sucks....(I mean it cooks fine, it's the clean up that sucks)

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2019, 06:22:47 am
content: Induction is neat, if my only option were electric I'd very likely go that route. I'm a big fan of gas though, it has most of the advantages of resistance and induction, with the added advantage of working in a power outage. I can light it with a match, or power my whole house with a 2kW generator. A generator capable of powering an electric stove would be prohibitively expensive, both to own and operate.

author: fourtytwo42
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 17, 2019, 09:29:49 pm
content: How far can I stray from the OP's question ? But I love gas, I use it when we go camping and it's such a relief from the slow old electric cooker at home BUT I would never give up my favorite pot's n pan's just so I could use induction!

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 18, 2019, 03:55:35 pm
content: how about microwaves? apparently one of the few safe ways to cook american bacon.Glad I am lazy and enjoy using the microwave to heat bacon.

author: langwadt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 19, 2019, 03:02:34 am
content: Quote from: G7PSK on January 12, 2019, 02:42:46 pmfor powertools I'd have the lead very short so it doesn't get tangled up in storage and then a single extension cord

author: djacobow
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 22, 2019, 11:53:25 pm
content: Quote from: coppercone2 on January 18, 2019, 03:55:35 pmWait! I've been missing out on some other kinds of bacon?!?!?

author: langwadt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 23, 2019, 12:36:16 am
content: Quote from: djacobow on January 22, 2019, 11:53:25 pmCanadian, American and Englishhttp://www.endlesssimmer.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/BaconUncooked.JPG

author: macboy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 23, 2019, 01:51:37 pm
content: Quote from: langwadt on January 23, 2019, 12:36:16 amI've never seen "Canadian" bacon so round... that is obviously a processed product; the good stuff is made from the whole loin which is the big meaty part seen in the English style one pictured. Here, we sometimes do call it Canadian bacon, but Canada is a big country with many geographic variations in culture, so it is also frequently called "back bacon" or sometimes "peameal bacon" (when the loin is coated in cornmeal before being sliced ... so I can't actually explain why "peameal" instead of "cornmeal"). Nevertheless, good old american style bacon strips are much more common here, and the single word "bacon" always refers to that.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 23, 2019, 02:37:12 pm
content: Quote from: djacobow on January 22, 2019, 11:53:25 pmYup. You only have the cheapest nastiest fattest "streaky bacon".Over here the best bacon is dry cured back bacon, the same shape as a pork loin chop.

author: schmitt trigger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 23, 2019, 04:35:38 pm
content: To me, the ultimate "Canadian Breakfast" are some pancakes smothered in maple syrup, plus a pair of thick Canadian bacon slices.

author: djacobow
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 23, 2019, 11:10:54 pm
content: I want all the bacon kinds. :-)

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 23, 2019, 11:43:16 pm
content: its about how its cured I mean. Pink generally means NaNO2 is used for curing and its bad if you apply high heat. Something having to do with industry changes in meat curing practices circa 1970.prosciutto is supposedly good but its $$. And its way too salty for anything but a sandwich intended to be used with prosciutto (i.e. with fresh cheese and tomato).But yea I don't see anything but american bacon working for a bacon egg and cheese sandwich. or a BLT. Apparently microwaving bypasses the formation of toxic chemicals some what. Is canadian bacon non nitrited?i don't really get why people like pink meat anyway. It looks wrong.