Watt the fμck? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: paulca
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 28, 2022, 05:50:15 pm
content: I'm not going to preach to the choir here, but "leccy don gon expensif don it"Maybe I am preaching to the choir, but...Forget the momentary devices like kettles, coffee machines, etc.Track the high power items. Tumble drier, oven, electric hob, microwave etc. etc.The thing is, as I found, while the bullshit you get in the media on "standby power" is cringeworthy and usually highly inaccurate, the reality of "It all adds up" is a genuine factor.So... I invested in monitoring plugs and plugged different "device groups" into them and monitored them for (by now over a month).By device group I basically mean a 4 way power bar extension or a chain of same for N devices. (UK fused 13Amp spec at each bar and plug). In the case of something like the bedroom that's 3 plugs. In the office, there are 2 buses with about a dozen on one, and half a dozen on the other. The office has a total of about 8 x 4 way or 6 way extensions. The non-essential stuff which isn't adverse to being switched off and on and stuff I will never need to run if I'm not present, is on that bus. Lights, monitors, speakers, most of the electronics bench. The other bus has essential stuff. It's plug has a bit of label tape sticking the power switch down into ON that says, "NO!!!!! ANY OTHER PLUG" on it. It runs the PCs and network gear... and a sneak plug for the electronics bench.-----------------------------------"OMG! THIS GI! Had NO IDEA! grumble grumble".... yes, these cheap smart plugs are absolutely inaccurate. Yes, they all actually add a few deciwatts to the mix. Yes they are point of failure and a point of potential fire. ABSOLUTELY YES, their 13 amp rating will take me to open them and see for myself how they are wires and the ratings before I would trust them with half of that. None of that matters. Except maybe the fire hazard if one exists in the units I use.USA viewers: "Don't cascade, tree and chain extensions. It's dangerous." Dude.... UK plugs, fuses in all of them. The WHOLE chain if it was 100 long of 4 way power adapters is STILL fused by a single 13amp fuse. Obviously there is risk of miss-inserted and partially inserted plugs. These in the past have melted extensions on me when running high power items. NONE of the devices I connect to these plugs consume more than 500W.-----------------------------The thing it shows it's exactly unexpected, "things add up". However, seeing it in hard data on your screen every morning when you log in with your coffee makes it hard to ignore.Multiplying things run time by they output, even to 1 significant figures should show you where you NEED to look is...Medium power items that run for long (or 100%) duty cycles.I identified 3 problem areas of standby over use.1. Office.2. Living room.3. Bedroom.(Why not the obvious kitchen? Because if you need, you need. They are momentary, choice items.)These rooms are "in use" or "not in use" and while somethings need standby power to retain their state and config, most don't.----------------Numbers....My living room media centre plug was pulling something like 30W idle. Nobody in the room. That was standby/active power for:* 55" TV* Dell Optiplex SFF desktop in standby.* network "smart" switchI would often just walk out of the room, knowing the PC will time out and black the screen after 5 minutes, the TV will time out and go standby after 5 minutes of that.... the PC will go to sleep after a total of 20 minutes elapsed. It turns out that returns the room power consumption slowly down from 160W to 30W.Still,30W * 24h = 720whNot a flies dick off a kwh. (Fly from Boogie nights)kwh = £0.39p UK as of 1st Oct.It starts to matter. That's compared to last year at £0.16 on a good tarrif.What prompted me to open this discussion and probably accept the heat, is because.... an examplar.I got a new, cheap ass, chinese OSC. Tested it, it's as shit as expected, but ... also better than requirements. So fine. It say 100Mhz, it struggles above 10. I don't need more than 1. It consumes 7W. So leaving it sitting there displaying pretty pictures for no reason is costing...7W * 24h=168Wh / day. It's still 8p per day.(Mine is connected to the off grid 12V solar system so irrelevant for me)I mean if you look at the things you leave on in the lab, you can justify they individually, they consume a dozen or two watt hours a day.I'm saying if you pay attention to all of them and find ways to segment things into "needs to be on all the time" and "can be turned off as suits", you can half your "base load".

author: paulca
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 28, 2022, 05:58:16 pm
content: The whole post and (due to red wine) I forgot the most important load which seems to be in the middle field. It's too small to care, but it tends to run nearly permanently.Computers, PCs.If you have a weedly little desktop that people insult on forums, you are going to do well.If you have a modern, baller gaming PC, you aren't.Real stats:5800X 32Gb (idle) 3080, 850W PSU --- on line 100W-120W.Dell Optiplex 70xx i7 with 8Gb RAN and onboard gfx = 20WWork laptop 18W.If you run any of those 24/7, you need to start calculating the cost. The price of leccy has more than doubled a lot of "don't care" items will now have migrated into the "should" care category./red wine (sorry).Overall with little inconvenience I have lower my "base load" in the office from 260W to 140W and my house wide "skeleton base power" from close to 500W to more like 260W. Over night power from 300+W to 120W.

author: jpanhalt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 28, 2022, 06:16:19 pm
content: If you think that's bad. I have a second home that is now vacant and for sale. About 8 weeks ago, a main water line was replaced in the neighborhood. After restarting the water, a toilet in a room I hadn't been in for ages got stuck in "on." Unlike the usual running toilet, there was no noise and no ripples in the water bowl. The overflow tube was simply running continuously. The penultimate month's water bill was $60+. I investigated and fixed the problem, but not soon enough. Last month's water bill was $97 for 1.3 MCF. Wow. As of today, there has been no water usage since the last reading.I am amazed that that one could fill a small swimming pool through a straw, so to speak.

author: Electroplated
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 28, 2022, 06:55:33 pm
content: I had my WTF moment a few months ago when I discovered my new Siglent scope has 'soft off' and not a real power switch, according to my tplink watt meter, it uses 3 to 4 watts when off by its power button, unlike everything else in my lab that has a real power switch, its something I over looked during my research on it, if I would have known about it then no way on earth would have bought it.Other things that are now turned off, the new washing machine that goes into sleep mode after playing a fancy tune, using 8 watts, the 2 watt cooker clock and the fake electric fire that used half a zillion LED's and a motor to produce a crap flame effect, when on it used 40 watts just for the flame effect, it was rapidly replaced with a more wallet friendly led effect using fading and flickering LED's, and some ceramic logs, it now uses 5 watts and is actually better to look at and far brighter.PIR outside lighting, we have four of them, 2 are being replaced soon because when off during the day both of them consume 4 watts each, the other two, a different brand use 1 watt.My beloved CCTV set up had to be trimmed down, off went two cameras at 5 watts each and out went the recorder because it was using 60 watts, its been replaced with a SFF dell and blue iris, its consumption is now 22 watts, it also serves as a small server, the PC, router and switch run off the same power supply, shaving a few watts off individual power supplies.Yes, every little thing does add up and I am glad I am not the only one who noticed this, in fact I think I have reduced the over all consumption so much I can afford a small bottle of red wine to celebrate !

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 28, 2022, 06:59:14 pm
content: There's a reason I'm ebay hunting for equipment to replace my VM host. 155W idle at 33.86p/kWh hurts.

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 28, 2022, 07:18:00 pm
content: I'm still trying to acount for the parasitic power drain since we had a smart meter installed a couple of years ago. I went completely paranoid at first about those 10s of Watts. I still prowl around in the middle of the night occasionally when I get an idea (even the RCBOs in the consumer unit run warm!).Standby current goes up with every smart or energy saving gadget, there are so many that need to be permanently powered to maintain functionality. I'm just glad I don't have any wireless chargers.

author: Kasper
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 28, 2022, 07:40:16 pm
content: When you turn off all your little 'heaters', does your heating bill go up? Or for those in warmer climates, does your a/c bill go down?

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 28, 2022, 07:57:48 pm
content: QuoteIf you fit the new all singing all dancing wylex mcb-rcd-afd your using roughly 6 kw/h per year,per device before you even switch the kettle on

author: Electroplated
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 28, 2022, 08:06:00 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on September 28, 2022, 06:59:14 pmI grabbed a HP Elite 8300 SFF PC i5-3470 to use as my cctv / server, I'm used a SFF dell with the same cpu but the HP would be better due it its intel nic. ( I use pfsense for a firewall and its quirky with realtek nics ) Not sure what your needs are for VM but there are a few Elite 8300 SFF on fleabay, they make decent servers and are pretty quite so long as the psu is dust free, the front cover / bezel clips off and can be fitted with filter foam to keep a lot of dust out, air runs from front to back on them.

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 28, 2022, 08:15:38 pm
content: Quote from: Gyro on September 28, 2022, 07:18:00 pmDo not forget GFCI wall outlets (they have LEDs) , outlets with USB chargers, bathroom fan switches with timers, that sort of things. Death by a thousand of cuts.

author: Electroplated
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 28, 2022, 08:17:27 pm
content: Quote from: themadhippy on September 28, 2022, 07:57:48 pmThat's one reason I am holding off having a newer CU fitted, I'm a retired electrician and don't always agree new ideas are good ideas. I did rewire my own home before I retired, the cables I replaced where not even 10 years old but had reasonably low insulation resistance, badly installed, pulled tight around corners and half of it was imported junk that suffered the infernal green goo problem caused by cheap pvc reacting with the copper and moisture I thought I was going crazy because the entire power consumption dropped a little, well of course it would, it was the same as having 4 x 1 meg resistors in parallel across the supply.

author: Electroplated
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 28, 2022, 08:22:50 pm
content: Quote from: Kasper on September 28, 2022, 07:40:16 pmOver here when we notice the effect of turning off mini room heaters the men put on thicker socks and some of the less hardier women stop shaving their legs

author: unknownparticle
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 28, 2022, 08:24:16 pm
content: Another little rogue power munching device is, or potentially is depending on the type you have fitted, is the central heating pump. I had a problem with mine last season, it had gone noisy so needed replacement. When I took the old, I mean OLD, as in 20+ years old, Grundfos pump out I was horrified to see that it was rated at 120 watts!!. It was a single speed non modulating pump, so when it was on it was consuming the full 120 watts. So, the replacement was a smart pump with loads of settings depending on the type of system in use. For me that was 35 watts max and modulating, so sometimes less. That was last year, so I'm bl00dy glad I discovered that with the situation we have now!I've also stopped using my desktop PC, now use a laptop, and I'm going to stop even using that and go to a Raspi 400, which uses about 4 watts!! Plus the monitor of course.I will have to cut WAY back on messing with my high power PSU's, I have some that are 1KW plus, so load testing those at full power is no longer viable! The biggest offender is my Farnell H30-100, which is upto 30 volts and 100 amps, 3KW is just not on just for fun! Fcuk Put1n, the b4stard, messing up our recreation!

author: nali
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 28, 2022, 08:32:05 pm
content: What about those natty little in home displays you get to tell you how much money you're saving with your smart meter? (according to the sales propoganda)

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 28, 2022, 08:40:39 pm
content: Yeah?

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 28, 2022, 08:43:35 pm
content: Quote from: nali on September 28, 2022, 08:32:05 pmAt least that has the decency to blank its display at night, it must save all of 100mW.To be fair, the guy who installed the meter said we could unplug it and chuck it in a drawer. It would probably help with the paranoia too!

author: Electroplated
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 28, 2022, 08:46:59 pm
content: Quote from: unknownparticle on September 28, 2022, 08:24:16 pmOld diverter valves tend to use a fair bit as well, people don't usually consider the cost of those running, its the gas they consider.I've just finished yet another bench psu, not a new design, a rebuild of one I designed 40 years ago, doing a full load test for 24 hours seemed a good idea, that is 150w plus for a whole day ! I have a few bench supplies but they all need to boot up and be twiddled with, most times I just need instant on and simple volt and current controls.

author: Electroplated
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 28, 2022, 09:03:16 pm
content: Quote from: Gyro on September 28, 2022, 08:43:35 pmWe will eventually reach a point where these little helpful gadgets will begin to use more energy than we are saving, they show us whats using what, great but the people who invented them never took people like us into account, we use them to hunt every last watt of waste until the day arrives where the last watt to save is the one the little energy monitor is using.I have a junk box filled them, some I was sent by the companies but most where donated from people who never used them, its a pity LCD's can not act as little solar cells like LED's can, other wise I would wire them all together and collect some free solar, it could charge the battery on the led camping light I will be using if prices go up any further.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 28, 2022, 09:39:50 pm
content: Quote from: Electroplated on September 28, 2022, 06:55:33 pmThe whole point of an electric fire is to produce heat. All of the energy going into those zillion LEDs turns into heat, so you're not really saving anything by replacing it. Unless that is you only want the fake fire effect and don't care about actually heating the room.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 28, 2022, 10:15:38 pm
content: Oh and saving a few W will save your life and the planet. Yeah, really.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 28, 2022, 10:18:01 pm
content: Quote from: Electroplated on September 28, 2022, 08:06:00 pmTad too crusty, but right idea.

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2022, 12:38:17 am
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on September 28, 2022, 10:15:38 pmEvery watt is sacred.I remember ads on TV telling us to burn power like fools.

author: Kasper
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2022, 12:42:50 am
content: Quote from: Electroplated on September 28, 2022, 08:22:50 pmAny good sock stocks out there? I think sellers of sweaters, tea, and similar items might do well this winter.

author: Electroplated
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2022, 08:41:31 am
content: Quote from: Kasper on September 29, 2022, 12:42:50 amI'm going to do well this year that's for sure, all those little bits of fleece I collected from farm fences over the last year will be turned into socks and bobble hats, teasel and card the wool, spin it to thread then onto the wooden knitting contraption, then sell them on fleabay.

author: Electroplated
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2022, 08:50:55 am
content: Quote from: james_s on September 28, 2022, 09:39:50 pmWe sat around this fire last year and we still got frostbite, we even tried turning it on to no avail. Keep in mind this fake fire was to create a cheap illusion of a fire, not warm up anything, we burn wood for that, we did try burning peat one time but he didn't burn that much.

author: paulca
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2022, 09:03:28 am
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on September 28, 2022, 10:15:38 pmSays the man in France with the cheapest electric in the western world or certainly Europe.

author: Electroplated
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2022, 09:21:56 am
content: Quote from: paulca on September 29, 2022, 09:03:28 amHe's rich I tells ya, rich ! Cheap Electricity and affordable cheese, hes living a life of luxury we can only dream about.

author: paulca
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2022, 09:22:35 am
content: Quote from: Kasper on September 28, 2022, 07:40:16 pmI've considered this. I've spent a few hours staring off into space trying to work out how to graph that and see where (if) they cross. I decided it would be difficult, especially without a gas flow meter.What I have definitely noticed is the heating started coming on 3 or 4 times a day for 15 minute bursts in the office. Losing that extra 100W of constant heat did get noticed.However, electric heating is off to a bad start due to it being anywhere from 30-45% efficient and the 45% is dubious as I believe it need to be power from and via all the latest grid tech for someone living right beside the plant.Also, they still ARE spreading propaganda encouraging using more power. Over night cheap tariffs still exist. That is 90% commercially driven an maybe 10% engineering practicalities on stop/starting the plants instead.Then there are the renewable tariff scams. Next time you are on the phone to your "green tariff" providing utilitiy. Ask them for proof of generations certificates for all the power you consumed and for all the green power they sold. They won't have them. The industry is so loosely regulated they just say they lost them down the back of a filing cabinet. They are traded, IOUd, borrowed, offset, debted, written off etc. etc.The second things on those of course is that we don't generate any excess power, so switch YOUR meter to a green tariff, just means there is less green energy for eveyrone else, so they will just use dirty power. It saves nothing. The same amount of green and dirty power will get generated, the same amount of CO2 gets released, its just that you are mug enough to pay more for it. Maybe the world is actually a nice place with fair people and that extra money goes to developing more renewables, but I fear that's dream world and it most likely ends up in an Exec staff bonus.

author: paulca
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2022, 09:30:42 am
content: The things I'm looking at now are the network infra stuffs. I upgraded my house network to be fully VLAN switched to keep nosey work laptops out of the LAN etc.Thing is there are 3 Wifi APs and 4 switches. I know the 2 main routers use about 15W each and the switches use 10W each. Well, at least 2 of them now power off. I could technically do without one of the APs as I don't really have much wireless use for 5Ghz upstairs.

author: Electroplated
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2022, 09:53:24 am
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on September 28, 2022, 10:15:38 pmAll those watts add up, the money saved could be enough to cover the cost of boiling a pan of water in winter, so giving poor old aunt Ethel a much needed cup of hot oxo and therefor saving her from hypermedia and death.Anyway, I cant stop here chatting, have to break up next doors furniture so we can have a hot meal tonight.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2022, 10:02:55 am
content: I had this moment when I measured one of my over 30 Hue lights.In off they still use 10-25mA @230V = 2 to 3W each.So I shut them off hard with the wall switch.Nice all the home automation but if each "smart" device has to be listening over "radio" be it BT, or zigbee or wifi or have an active ethernet stack running they aren't that smart anymore to use.My electricity price has gone up from €0,22/kWh in july 2021 to €0,81/kWh for coming month.For gas and electricity I have to pay €5000 more per year, which hurts.The problem I like to solve is how to switch off dozens of devices (like networkswitches, APs, etc.) off at night without using a clockswitch which also consumes electricity per device.If someone has an elegant ultra low power solution preferably with a latching relay I would be very interested. Otherwise I have to build it my own.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2022, 10:35:24 am
content: Quoteclockwork timeclock?

author: paulca
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2022, 10:39:49 am
content: Quote from: Kjelt on September 29, 2022, 10:02:55 amI think you need to revisit the low power device market. Most Zigbee devices run on battery. My hallway motion sensors are well over a year on the coin cell they came with. They still show 55% battery.Gas meters here, the pre-pay card type run 24/7/365 for 10 years on a single battery.So while, yes, there are lazy people who use cheap dropper power supplies and use a few watts. But still, all of them house wide (mains powered smart devices) adds up to less than 30W.The advances in MCU low power mode in the last 10 years has been amazing. Most zigbee MCUs have a deep sleep power requirement of micro-amps. Their radio sleep power draw is also in micro-amps. When they need to wake up and send data, they can do that in a millisecond at 30mA and go back to sleep at 2uA for 55 seconds.If you are mains powering things you can be a lot more lazy. When I made my sensors I didn't even put the MCU to sleep and left the Wifi radio on constantly. They still only consumed 40mA at 5V.

author: GlennSprigg
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2022, 11:59:32 am
content: My father in-law, many years ago, (who I found out had figure-8 speaker wire strung between trees to get 240v powerout to his pigeon sheds from the house!), told me that you have to save power by turning off ALL appliances at the power-point to save wastage. Even a Lamp or Toaster etc... I couldn't make him understand, so I gave up! Yes, as a technician, Icould have mentioned the likes of a 'Corona Discharge' to the atmosphere!!!, but I think that the concern for the likes of anincrease in your bill of say 1c or 2c over a 10 year period for the whole house, was not worth debating!!!(And yes... I re-wired his sheds!, with the correct wiring/catenarie's)

author: snarkysparky
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2022, 12:22:09 pm
content: I have a different point of view on it.Forget about all the tiny consuming devices. If you include them in your thinking then you are distracted from where the real problems are.Hot water heater !!!!Put an insulating blanket on your electric hot water heater.When you shower turn the flow rate of water down to a trickle. Don't reduce water temp ( that just miserable ) but the flow rate. At full on most of the hot water misses the body anyway.Refrigerator !!Other than making sure the seals are good and air flow is good around the unit not much you can do.Run the heat pump mainly when outside temp is favorable. In summer that is at night. In winter that is when the sun is on it.Favor microwave instead of oven of possible ( unless you heat with electric resistance heat ).More ideas ??

author: paulca
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2022, 01:02:23 pm
content: Yeah, I now have an issue with my freezer. I think I overloaded it or a bit of packaging got stuck in the door seal. Unfortunately it might not be fixable without defrosting it. It seems to have collected a lot of ice via damp air and freshly inserted food adding moisture.The freezer is running 50% of the time. It's about 220W with around 100W reactive going back out.I've tried to clear out some ice and I've powered it down for an hour which sometimes causes it to switch it's defrost heater on when you repower it. All that ice is having insulative properties and fighting the freezers attempt to cool more.I don't want to lose the food in it though and I don't have anywhere that will keep stuff frozen for the hour it will take.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2022, 02:20:57 pm
content: QuoteIn the uk it wont make much difference as we tend to use instantaneous electric showers with a fixed wattage heating element.Quotewouldn't worry to much about it,bet from plonking it in your trolley at the supermarket to chucking it in the freezer at home is nearly an hour

author: woody
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2022, 02:27:03 pm
content: Quote from: Kjelt on September 29, 2022, 10:02:55 amPOE switch(es). Usually you can set a power schedule into them and power off / on connected AP's, camera's, POE powered switches and other equipment that is POE powered (RPI). Not a magic bullet, but it does help save a few watts.I remember years ago looking at Enocean devices. They are wireless, self-powered sensors and actuators. Never got beyond looking so I am not sure what the status is, but they fill your requirement of needing no external power.And at this point I was going to make a closing remark that according to Domoticz our baseload, when everyone is asleep and everthing is off, is ~400W and that I did not care as that is the price you pay for all the stuff that makes modern living possible. Until I realized that 400W translates in 10kWh/day. Or, in current current prices, €9,- per day. Or €270,- per month. WTF indeed! The only thing between me and real problems is the 5 year energy contract I entered in May 2020. I am definitely going to hunt for power savings now, this is not future proof!

author: paulca
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2022, 02:30:21 pm
content: Well, unfortunately I was wrong about the power usage. With the freezer powered off, the square wave was still there.I knew "it can't be the 50W fish tank heater" because the square wave has an amplitude of over 100W, well over.Just to be sure I went and unplugged the fishtank heater. Square wave is gone.This is now much more disturbing as it most likely means the 50W heater is broken is a rather bizarre way, as it's not tripping the electric, so it's not leaking to earth (unlikely on a 2 pin plug I suppose), I wonder if it's seals failed and it filled with water would it's load increase with partial conductivity through the water? It shouldn't be drawing over 100W and it shouldn't be generating ANY reactive power. I'm baffled.EDIT: Sorry, blonde moment, I was reading the power factor graph wrong. When the fish tank heater comes on the power factor rises. Which makes sense as it's a 100 perfect resistive load. Just need to work out why it's consuming 2 to 3 times its power rating.

author: paulca
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2022, 02:45:10 pm
content: Quote from: woody on September 29, 2022, 02:27:03 pm400W, ouch.Mine has come down to about 97W now, ruined by the fish heater. Any want a fish tank - sorry - humidity generator?

author: Neper
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2022, 03:33:28 pm
content: We've just bought and returned aGreen Cell UPSthat constantly draws a whopping 35 watts when it's just switched on without anything connected at the output side. Where all the energy goes? It gets warm. So much that our cats don't want to sit on top of it. And, yes, I had waited a whole day to make sure the built-in batteries were fully charged.At our current electricity rate that would be 140 euros per year.No mention of the standby power consumption in the published data. Now we know why...

author: AVGresponding
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2022, 04:40:25 pm
content: Quote from: Neper on September 29, 2022, 03:33:28 pmNot familiar with that brand, but typically a UPS is at its best efficiency when running at 70-80% of its rated load. The advertising blurb implies it's an offline type (only switches the inverter on when the mains fails).It doesn't mention the Wh rating of the battery, but at £160 for a 2kVA unit with battery installed, I'm guessing it's not much, one of the 12V 40Ah batteries they show on the same page maybe? Assuming the battery is only being overcharged in the usual way, the charger probably isn't using more than 10 of those 35W, leaving 25W to power the control board and display backlight... it seems excessive to me too.You might have a duff one, with the charger cooking the battery even more enthusiastically than usual. Have you measured the float voltage?

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2022, 04:50:31 pm
content: Quote from: snarkysparky on September 29, 2022, 12:22:09 pmDoes anyone have a hot water storage tank without insulation? I thought that stopped 50 years ago.Quote from: snarkysparky on September 29, 2022, 12:22:09 pmIf you find you need a high flow rate to get a good shower consider a new shower head. Some distribute the water much better than others. A large number of fine drops is much better than a small number of large ones.

author: Electroplated
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2022, 06:20:25 pm
content: Quote from: paulca on September 29, 2022, 02:30:21 pmI had one of those test tube shaped fish tank heaters years ago, worked for years then while cleaning the tank I noticed the burn marks inside the glass tube, replaced it same day, the old ones element supports had crumbled and allowed the coils to short in a few places, it probably still worked, heating faster than it was supposed to do, I wont mention another one of those that had a faulty seal, back in the days predating rcd's.

author: Electroplated
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2022, 06:27:52 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on September 29, 2022, 04:50:31 pmCame across that a few months back when I replaced a Mira shower bar, the new head looked the same as the older one but despite messing with the heads spray setting, it just pissed out water, we like the fine spray so fitted the old head. I should have paid more attention to the bloody thing, they carry a five year warranty and the old one was leaking from a valve two years in DOH!Some electric shower units have a safety blow valve, nothing more than a one shot thing that pops if there is back pressure in the hose or head, fit a head that restricts pressure and it could pop the valve so the water pours out from the base of the shower unit.

author: Neper
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2022, 06:38:34 pm
content: Quote from: AVGresponding on September 29, 2022, 04:40:25 pmNot even that. Two batteries of 12 V 9 Ah each.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2022, 07:02:04 pm
content: Quote from: paulca on September 28, 2022, 05:50:15 pmThe problem with standby power is little settings deep in configuration menus can massively affect it. The only way you can figure out the real effect of each setting is using a power meter, which few people have access to. There are warnings in some manuals. For example, our LG TV manual says you can turn the TV on and off by bluetooth wifi or ethernet commands, but enabling this increases power consumption. They don't say how much it increases, but the fact that they provide a warning suggests the effect is pretty bad. I haven't checked the effect on our particular TVs, but in the past I found some standby settings increased a TVs consumption from a couple of watts to about 50W. Even a couple of watts is pretty bad. In 2022 its not hard to engineer a standby power level of a few milliwatts. Even being able to start from a bluetooth, wifi or ethernet command can be done for a small fraction of a watt.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2022, 07:18:07 pm
content: Quote from: paulca on September 29, 2022, 09:03:28 amUh yeah. Sure. Prices are inflating a lot over here as well though. And...On a more serious tone though, one thing that defies logic is that from what I know, the UK is almost self-sufficient energy-wise - at least for electricity and gas. They do not get any gas from Russia AFAIK, whatsoever. Please correct me if I'm wrong though.So how come prices are skyrocketing there? The UK is not even part of the EU anymore, so it's not a matter of decisions from the EC either. What is it? I'm curious and not the only one wondering, so if some enlightened people can explain this to us.The OP's title looks quite right.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2022, 07:32:42 pm
content: Quoteopen markets,the energy makers flog it on the word markets and the suppliers buy it from the world markets.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2022, 07:56:23 pm
content: Quote from: snarkysparky on September 29, 2022, 12:22:09 pmI have a gas hot water heater so that doesn't affect my electric usage and costs relatively little to run anyway. My refrigerator is a relatively steady draw with a roughly 50% duty cycle that doesn't seem to change much. All the little stuff adds up quickly though, 5W here, 3W there, pretty soon you're talking significant power, my steady state base load is about 250 watts.I'm only paying a hair over 10c/kWh so I haven't put any great effort into reducing it yet but it does annoy me that there are so many random loads, I had a spreadsheet years ago but I haven't updated that in a long time.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2022, 07:58:40 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on September 29, 2022, 07:02:04 pmAnybody has access to a power meter if they want one, those Kill-A-Watt and similar devices are inexpensive and have been available for at least a decade.

author: Electroplated
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2022, 08:07:47 pm
content: Quote from: Kjelt on September 29, 2022, 10:02:55 amI have an external tplink AP that supplies part of the garden with wifi during the day, I set it up so family members can sit outside and work remotely, its under the control of an old battery zero volt heating timer/ thermostat,the relay is rated at 2 amps and batteries last about 12 months, I set the timer to the required time intervals in 24 hour mode, same can be achieved by having the same settings for each day, set the temperature to the lowest it will go so its tricked into working even on warm days, works for me but make sure the device has a static IP otherwise its IP may change on boot.I wonder if that same idea could be used to control a more capable relay or solid state relay to control a higher load.Of course I could use a powered timer but I had one of those cause a small fire a long time ago and have never trusted them since, far too many cheap junk ones about with corners cut, no thanks.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2022, 08:20:39 pm
content: I have a couple of electronic light timers that use a latching relay and run off a single AAA cell that lasts about a year, somebody must still make those.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2022, 08:43:14 pm
content: QuoteInteresting Brand? Model ?As some mentioned before if I should build it diy I would indeed look for some ultra low power arm microcontroller running off a single LiIon cell, that now and then would be charged when it switches on its load. But since I have te s of unfinished projects still waiting, it might be wiser to go for this route

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2022, 08:51:42 pm
content: They're made by Intermatic as I recall, I'm not actually sure where they are currently, I've since replaced them with Sonoff devices that tie into my automation.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2022, 09:08:53 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on September 29, 2022, 07:58:40 pmThey aren't great for measuring for measuring standby power, as they don't measure well at the one or two watt level. If you are going to get one get an actual kill-a-watt, as most of the clones are pretty awful across the whole power range. Some don't even measure active power - they give a rough apparent power reading. A real kill-a-watt will do well at telling you when you have a really gross standby consumption, like the 50W TV I referred to. I guess it will work fairly well for comparative measurements, too. Its not great, though.

author: AndyBeez
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2022, 09:10:45 pm
content: Power scheduling network hardware not only saves money, the planet and the MTBF, but it also keeps hackers from dialing into the network when you're in bed and they are eating their midday bun cha. PoE scheduling is good practice. But don't turn off the CCTV or the IP recorder!+ I once used a device that powered down my printer and monitor when the computer switched off. It was called an eco-plug. You may have been sent one or similar by your energy supplier. Piece of unreliable junk that received a premature teardown for parts. I think I just kept the LED.In a domestic setting, there is a ton of stuff that's always on and turning the meter. Not just the phone chargers, fridges, aircon and heating system, but other 'subliminal' stuff like cookers, hobs, ovens, extractor fans and dish washers. Maybe even the solar panel inverter is secretly sipping the off hour watts? There is only so much that can be turned off.One saving you can make....

author: AVGresponding
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 30, 2022, 05:38:42 am
content: Quote from: Neper on September 29, 2022, 06:38:34 pm9Ah is a non-standard size, I wonder if it's really a 7Ah that they massaged the discharge rate on, to get a more favourable capacity? Either way, at the rated load, you'll get less than 5 minutes of inverter time to do a controlled shutdown (assuming you're protecting a PC). Realistically a PC running at say 200W, you'll get probably thirty minutes or so depending on the low battery voltage shutoff settings. The batteries aren't going to be very happy in any case though.

author: timenutgoblin
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 30, 2022, 06:40:33 am
content: Quote from: paulca on September 28, 2022, 05:50:15 pmIf your kettle is rated at 2200W (2.2kW) and is switched on for 90 seconds at a time, 5 times day, then at £0.39p per kWh it will cost you £9 - £10 per quarter-year (90 days or 3 months).Do you use a laser printer? My laser printer is rated at 4.3A 240V and uses nearly 1000W (1kW) while printing. Fortunately, I rarely use it.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 30, 2022, 06:46:03 am
content: Quote from: AVGresponding on September 30, 2022, 05:38:42 am9Ah is the most common size of SLA battery I've ever encountered, they're the same external dimensions as the 7Ah type. Of course in UPS duty you don't get anywhere near that rating, which is for a far slower discharge.

author: Neper
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 30, 2022, 08:27:59 am
content: Looks like 9 Ah is the new 7 Ah. Ebay is full of them.

author: paulca
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 30, 2022, 08:54:02 am
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on September 29, 2022, 07:18:07 pmI have come across a different view of why the gas price is so high. It's an international market with international prices. The reason it's gone nuts partly the Ukraine war. But not entirely. The war caused a shock to the price, which started the price bouncing under volatility. The number of companies trading in the international natural gas market went from 9 when the market was stable to over 200 when it destabilised. These are option traders and speculators, buying low and selling high. Their entire goal is to keep that price volatile so they can scrape the profits off of it.Worst though, the energy companies are whining about the RISK cause by the price bouncing, so they lift their consumer price to protect themselves. However they also purchase energy futures to offset their risk. The net is, when the price is down your utility company are making record, bumper profits. The price is bouncing massively.It's correct the UK don't import gas, oddly, Ireland is a net exporter of natural gas.So it does bear a question.... why can't the UK and Ireland take it's gas off the international market and sell it to us for sensible "localised" prices.

author: Electroplated
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 30, 2022, 09:24:31 am
content: Quote from: paulca on September 30, 2022, 08:54:02 am

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 30, 2022, 11:28:25 am
content: Quote from: paulca on September 30, 2022, 08:54:02 amNetherlands has the same issue, we pump up 20 billion m3 a year and export 17.5m3 for a price twenty to thirty times lower than the current market price.And the inconvenient truth here is that our government or whoever they assigned the rights to signed very long lasting contract to other eu countries.Morons, short term profit seekers. The only country I know of who was smart enough to put thecearnings from their gas fields into a mutual fund and now earns billions per month is Norway.

author: AVGresponding
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 30, 2022, 01:12:27 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on September 30, 2022, 06:46:03 amQuote from: Neper on September 30, 2022, 08:27:59 amNever seen one here in 30 years in the business. Sounds like it's a 7 that's just been qualified at a different, lower, discharge current. Either that or it's a Chinese "9Ah" like those 900,000mAh power banks and 5000mAh 18650's on ebay.

author: paulca
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 30, 2022, 01:19:45 pm
content: Sure the ideal way to keep a UPS SLA bank topped up is a small 12V solar panel?

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 30, 2022, 07:27:28 pm
content: Quote from: AVGresponding on September 30, 2022, 01:12:27 pmOr technology has improved and they're able to pack a bit more into the same size package?Power Sonic is a reputable brand, they offer both a 7 and 9Ah battery, Digikey is a reputable seller and carries them, albeit at an inflated price. I have about half a dozen UPSs with that size and they all came with 9Ah batteries in them.https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/power-sonic-corporation/PS-1290-F2/13577465

author: Neper
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 30, 2022, 08:45:43 pm
content: Quote from: AVGresponding on September 30, 2022, 01:12:27 pmFrom what I understand, they use a somewhat different technology named AGM (for Absorbent Glass Mat). No lead gel as before but fibreglass mats soaked with a liquid electrolyte. Might explain the slight difference in capacity.

author: mikerj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 30, 2022, 09:15:02 pm
content: Quote from: nali on September 28, 2022, 08:32:05 pmI presume the power that the smart meter requires is drawn from the unmetered side? Anyone know typical power draw? Guessing not huge but when there is millions of the bloody things...

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 30, 2022, 09:28:41 pm
content: We all hope so. Given that smart gas meters are powered by a big lithium primary cell that we didn't get charged for, it seems likely.

author: nali
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 30, 2022, 09:31:49 pm
content: Quote from: mikerj on September 30, 2022, 09:15:02 pmYes they do. The meter itself doesn't draw much, most of the power goes to the bolt on comms hub which facilitates the Home Area Network. Although the interface spec calls for a maximum power delivery of 6W typical power might be a 100-200mW.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2022, 01:54:09 am
content: Quote from: mikerj on September 30, 2022, 09:15:02 pmIt is a requirement that an electricity meter is powered from the unmetered side. If you think about it, it really has to be. Otherwise the meter would creep when the entire property is turned off, and they would have a customer service nightmare. Meters also don't read the first few milliamps, so they don't creep on noise. The exact number of milliamps varies with the location. Germany estimated that it took a 600MW generating set to power all its Ferraris wheel meters. Electronic meters initially had the selling point of cutting this considerably. Early smart meters took a modest fraction of a watt, However, they have grown in complexity, and I'm not sure how much most of them currently take.

author: AVGresponding
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2022, 07:40:59 am
content: Quote from: james_s on September 30, 2022, 07:27:28 pmLooking at the datasheet for the product you linked, they have done exactly what I said; used a lower discharge current to exaggerate the capacity. I am familiar with the Power Sonic brand, and consider them to be one of the budget brands, they are in no way a premium brand.There isn't really the potential for the kind of incremental technological improvement that you suggest; lead-acid batteries have a specific chemistry, and the volume of electrolyte is what determines the capacity. You can only fit so much electrolyte in a given volume. The size of the electrode plates and their shape determines the safe current capability, and in essence, the bigger they are, the more current, but also the less space there is for electrolyte.Gel type batteries have an additional disadvantage in that the electrolyte isn't free to circulate around the electrode plates, which means that in order to extract the most capacity, lower discharge currents are needed, and this is why lower currents in general than liquid LA batteries are specified, despite often having much larger Ah capacities. Give them too much current, and they'll locally boil the electrolyte off the plates and fail open.Quote from: Neper on September 30, 2022, 08:45:43 pmAGM and Gel are two names for the same thing. They use a gel electrolyte absorbed into a glass-fibre mat to keep it in contact with the lead electrodes. This means you can use them in any orientation, unlike a traditional lead-acid wet cell.

author: nali
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2022, 09:33:29 am
content: Quote from: coppice on October 01, 2022, 01:54:09 amThe metered side is also internally switched by a bistable relay. Shame the question didn't come up a few days ago as I've just finished a contract at a meter manufacturer otherwise I could've looked up the spec or just hooked up and measured a device.

author: Neper
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2022, 01:00:33 pm
content: Quote from: AVGresponding on October 01, 2022, 07:40:59 amWhat about Yuasa? Panasonic don't seem to make lead gel batteries anymore. Any other brand you'd be able to recommend?

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2022, 01:23:42 pm
content: Quote from: AVGresponding on October 01, 2022, 07:40:59 amNo they haven't. Read it again and note that both are using standard discharge time curves - 20hr. 350mA for the 7Ah, 450mA for the 9Ah. Also note that the 9Ah weighs 25% more than the 7Ah.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2022, 01:46:15 pm
content: I like to turn nearly everything off in my office overnight, so I arranged to switched spur that provided power for the PC, monitor, Dymo, remote TV monitor, desk lights, etc. Shut down the PC then flick the switch and it's all good, except that after a lot of switching the switch would fail. Replaced, repeat.My solution was to use an "E-ON Energy Saver Power Down Plug Surge Protect... you get the idea". This is a long time ago, and amazingly you can still buy them:https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B00VKU57D4The idea is you plug the thing you will be turning off (in my case the PC, but often a TV or something) in the monitored socket, and everything else (that is, what you want to also turn off) in the other. When the power being sucked through the monitored socket drops to some low figure, the entire thing powers down. There's an IR doobrey so you can use you remote control to bring it all back up, but it has a button built in, which is what I use. Says it uses 0.5W in standby but I haven't measured it - my sole purpose was to save me switching loads of stuff individually.

author: AVGresponding
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2022, 02:50:10 pm
content: Quote from: Neper on October 01, 2022, 01:00:33 pmAre you sure? They seem current to me (ooops, sorry, unintentional pun).https://industry.panasonic.eu/products/energy-building/batteries/battery-cells/secondary-batteries-rechargeable-batteries/valve-regulated-lead-acid-batteries#please-find-more-valve-regulated-lead-acid-batteries-here-paragraph-1322I'm not saying Power Sonic are bad, just that they aren't premium (actually they seem to have improved a lot). Any brand that the likes of RS, Digikey etc sell that are in the same-ish price bracket will be perfectly adequate, just that if you use them in a high demand situation like a UPS you aren't going to get the sticker capacity.Yuasa are good, CSB, Haze, Fiamm. Premium for me is the likes of Hawker/EnerSys. For a home UPS there's no reason to spend that much though. Better to just make sure the float voltage the UPS is charging at is not excessive, and the case temperature is reasonable.

author: AVGresponding
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2022, 03:11:19 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on October 01, 2022, 01:23:42 pmThat implies they've filled the "free-space" with plate and electrolyte. That would have a knock-on implication for the lifespan, as that would mean there's less space for the H2to expand into during charge, so it would vent and be lost more easily.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2022, 03:13:24 pm
content: Quote from: AVGresponding on October 01, 2022, 03:11:19 pmPerhaps so. In many applications these are one-shot packs anyway, one real discharge and they've had it, so it may as well be a nice deep one.

author: Red Squirrel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2022, 04:58:10 pm
content: I don't fuss too much about the standby loads, because they're a drop in the bucket compared to my server rack.I am looking into tying solar power into the servers as well as other loads though. I have to tidy up my home automation stuff and redesign it so it's more plug and play, but end goal is to have transfer switches that will transfer loads between hydro and solar based on solar power input. Probably going to just go by the battery voltage as it's easier to measure than current, so if it's at 27v it will transfer loads over. If voltage goes below say, 24.5 it will then transfer them back to hydro. May want to use time of day as an indicator too, so that in the final hours of daylight I ensure to let the battery charge back up. In the summer months I could probably run stuff off solar almost 24/7.I also want to setup automation so that the inverter turns on/off based on voltage. That will allow me to plug in space heaters in the solar system without worrying too much about if I'm killing my battery. Price of natural gas basically doubled so going to try to get more out of my solar system. Looking into adding more panels too.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2022, 07:13:53 pm
content: Quote from: nali on October 01, 2022, 09:33:29 amSome meters have switching and some don't. It depends on the utility. That don't impact anything else in the design. Its just an output switch. You could still power the meter after the current sensor, if regulations allowed it. They don't. The spec you had is probably irrelevant to most people. Basic metrology is governed my ISO standards in most countries, and ANSI standards in the US. Organisations like WELMEC and OIML cover a lot of specs for global metrology, including electricity meters. Still a lot of requirements are very local, like anti-tamper features, and including the power envelope. It has to be. The comms used in various places is so different that the power requirements are all over the place.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2022, 10:19:16 pm
content: Quote from: paulca on September 30, 2022, 08:54:02 amSo it basically looks like a great scam. Doesn't it?

author: Infraviolet
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2022, 10:48:50 pm
content: All these measurements sound like they were on things which go in to plug sockets, which means you didn't account for consumption by ceiling lights and such. Wonder how the consumption compares for the most efficient LED lights which can screw in to bulb mountings vs LED lighting running from low voltages produced by wall wart adapters in plug sockets.In the end the real way to save energy though is to do without heating where you can, and ensure any water heating by gas/electric/heatpump boilers is done on-demand only and not for a fixed daily period.The real solution, ofcourse, is nuclear energy, with a slice of renewables for out-of-the-way areas and whatever fracking is regrettably inevitably needed until the nuclear capacity can be brought online. But too many virtue signallers have been simultaneously trying to say that the planet is doomed and yet also demonise the best solution. What it all comes down to, in the end, is that anything to do with lifestyle changes to manage consumption is a waste of time, diminishing returns, what the planet, and the economy, needs is more and cleaner production, and governments/businesses to invest in new energy production rather than burning tonnes of money on (delete as appropriate) obscene levels of bureaucracy/obscene levels of profit.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2022, 01:09:59 am
content: Lighting loads are nearly irrelevant these days, assuming modern LED lighting. It is absolutely dwarfed by heating and hot water. I think on average even just my refrigerator consumes more power than all the lighting I use.

author: cortex_m0
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 03, 2022, 01:39:35 am
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on September 29, 2022, 07:18:07 pmAccording to a 2016 report from the UK government, almost 40% of UK energy (a category including crude oil, coal, gas, and electricity) is imported.29% of energy imports are of natural gas, primarily from Norway and Netherlands.https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/environmentalaccounts/articles/ukenergyhowmuchwhattypeandwherefrom/2016-08-15France is a notable source of electricity in the UK. There are multiple grid connections between the UK and the continent, at least one of which runs alongside the Channel Tunnel:https://www.nationalgrid.com/uks-second-electricity-link-france-starts-flowing-full-capacity

author: mikerj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 03, 2022, 01:17:33 pm
content: Quote from: AVGresponding on October 01, 2022, 07:40:59 amThis isn't true, they both sealed and valve regulated designs but they are constructed differently. The electrolyte in an AGM battery remains liquid, but is suspended in the glass mat. A gel battery uses silica to form a fairly thick colloidal gel. Gel batteries are the ones very often used in UPS and security alarms, they cope with deeper discharge better than other lead-acid designs but are more sensitive to being overcharged (the gel dries up and battery impedance rises dramatically, the usual cause of death). Gel batteries tend not to be use for high current applications like starter batteries, AGM is superior for this.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 03, 2022, 02:45:06 pm
content: Quote from: paulca on September 30, 2022, 08:54:02 amA couple of reasons: Who owns the gas? Is it private enterprise or is it some subsidiary of the government? If it is owned by private enterprise (likely), then world market rules apply. He who pays the most, gets the most. Worldwide market!Nationalizing energy for reduced costs isn't going to work either. There is nothing a government agency can do that can't be done faster, better and cheaper when 'profit' is involved. Employees of government agencies aren't interested in 'profit', they are interested in pension benefits upon retirement. Customer service is right out the window.Then there are the 'take or pay' contracts that are intended to smooth prices. A utility signs up to take so much raw resources over some period of time for a certain price. If they exceed the amount, they pay going rate for the extra. If they underuse the amount, they pay anyway. Those sound like workable strategies as long as supply is relatively stable and consumers don't do something irrational like conserve. It can be counterproductive to conserve if it leaves the utility buying resources it can't sell and losing money on a daily basis. Of course they are going to raise prices. They can do this because consumer agreements are not 'take or pay'. They're more like 'pay what we bill'.Want to regulate the price? Good luck! Maintenance will go down, continuity of service will go down but profits will stay the same or climb. Just get the .gov involved if you want to see how a market actually works. There is no sense of nationalism when profits are involved.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 03, 2022, 05:12:19 pm
content: Removing ~35% of all gas from the European market (Russia is now supplying <20% of what it was pre-war) will of course have an effect on the gas price. I don't see any conspiracy here.

author: paulca
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2022, 10:15:48 am
content: I have been on this campaign for nearly a month now.So by setting my mains power graph to 1 week and moving it week by week from the start of Sept, taking the average power (in W) over that week.It's gone from 496W average to 346W average. About £40 a month.The fish tank is going to a good home tonight. I'm done with it. It turns out it IS a 150W heater, it's not broken, but the tank is using that heater for 20 minutes every hour and it's not even cold indoors yet! I'm bored of it long ago anyway.On "educating others". When you start talking Watt hours and Kilowatt hours, people lose interest and stop listening.So, without making the conversion between power and energy units a thing, just bypass it entirely and don't mention the units. Stick with Watts. Just multiple it by roughly how many hours a day the thing gets used to get a "Cost factor" - call it a unitless value (even though it's watt hours / day).Examples:Oven - 3kW - 15 minutes per day (30 minute bake) = 750Electric shower - 11kW - 10 minutes per day = ~1900Gaming PC 100W - 16 hours a day = 1600Smart hub - 1W - 24hours = 24Smart temp sensor - 0.1W 24 hours = 2.4Idle Hue RGB Bulb - 2W 24 hours = 48It should be fairly easy for most people to go through most items in their house, put an estimated power value on it, estimate how many hours a day, "Score" the items, sort them and do something small and simple to reduce each of the big ones. Maximum impact, minimum effort. and NO TEMPORAL UNIT CONVERSIONS. (You and I know we can extract watt hours, divide and multiple to get kWh and £ / $. They don't need to know.That and on everybody this winter needs at least a house wide power meter!

author: paulca
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 05, 2022, 08:45:30 pm
content: Thanks Dave for the latest video!

author: paulca
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 05, 2022, 08:54:18 pm
content: These are my attempts of data logging. At least it's data.The fish tank square wave is still f[c-u]{2}king with me. New owner, no show. It might come down to clove oil.** Mains power values, there are 3. They are the min/max/last? of the down-sampling on the series from t=whatever (pm) to t=1min (1 data per minute). (I preserves the high, low, average and last for each 1 minute sample set for 1 month.) Then down sample that to 5mins for... ever currently.* ess and nes are "essential = 24/7" and "non essential" switched at the door on the way out. Only 2 power rails, 2 sockets, 2 smart plugs.