TDS460 either a scope error or op error........ - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: xwarp
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 14, 2014, 07:13:49 pm
content: Ignorant op error.

author: Howardlong
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 14, 2014, 07:56:02 pm
content: QuoteIf it's any consolation, that scope has to be one of the hardest to fathom, the menu system was designed when we were in the crossover period between CROs and DSOs, and it's a real head scratcher.To enter single trigger mode, Shift -> Single Trigger (Force trigger button in the trigger section).To run another, press the Run/Stop button (top right on panel).To get back to normal running is a bit harder!Shift -> Acquire Menu (on the Run/Stop button);Select RUN/STOP button only;Press RUN/STOPBy the way, the normal/auto is in the trigger menu accessed by pressing the Trigger Menu button, but this doesn't disable the single sweep.Also of use is getting the scope back to sensible settings if you get yourself into a pickle: Setup -> Recall Factory Setup -> OK confirm factory init. This won't delete your own setups previously stored or any calib settings despite its name, it's just to get the scope back to a sensible operating state.I also spent ages trying to turn off unused channels, you select the channel with the CH1-CH4, and then press the Waveform Off button below the CH buttons. Took me a while to realise that there was a button just to do that.It's a good scope, the UI is a bit slow, and I definitely would not recommend it to "young player" but It is a 400MHz unit, although only with equivalent time sampling. When you turn the wick up to 1ns/div, it does ET at 50GSa/s, which sounds impressive, except you have to wait a bit to see the result! But it is indeed quite an academic exercise to figure out how to drive it.

author: xwarp
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2014, 12:07:39 am
content: Thanks Howard.After figuring out why it wasn't triggering in the single acquisition mode, I was able to look at some signals and now have a pretty good grip on using this thing.When I first got it, after replacing all the caps, I played with it quite a bit and had to resort to application papers written by Tek that were not model specific, i.e. FFT waveform math to figure out some things with it.In any case, the manuals for the early TDS 200, 300, 400, 500, 600 series ALL SUCK for providing somewhat decent info to new users of these types of scopes.Only took me an hour I think to figure out that if you are using CH1 and FFT, that the time knob will span out the FFT waveform if the Math LED is on.Oh, and what I did that seemed to correct the initial issue of getting the Single Acq to work.......Running the Signal Path Compensation.

author: Howardlong
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2014, 12:26:48 am
content: Almost nothing is straightforward, I have this vision of a room full of monkeys and a dart board when they designed the Ui.

author: xwarp
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2014, 12:41:47 am
content: Imagine half of those monkeys throwing some darts at the other monkeys....oh, was the dart board on the wall, or was there a monkey holding that too?

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2014, 01:55:24 pm
content: I used the TDS460 series of oscilloscopes when they were still being produced and the only confusion I had with the interface was when unlocking the horizontal positioning. I really liked the soft menus along both edges of the display which was not quite a new feature at that time.The oscilloscope I used regularly before then was a Tektronix 545A (all tubes but recognizable as "modern") so I did not find the TDS460 series user interface intimidating at all.

author: xwarp
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2014, 02:10:36 pm
content: Quote from: David Hess on November 15, 2014, 01:55:24 pmDavid, what do you mean by that in bold?(I think your reply might help me with something I was wondering about.)

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2014, 02:21:58 pm
content: Quote from: xwarp on November 15, 2014, 02:10:36 pmThere is a function to unlock the horizontal positioning on individual traces so they may horizontally positioned independently from each other. From the user manual on page 3-48:You can also control whether changing the horizontal position setting affects alldisplayed waveforms, just the live waveforms, or only the selected waveform.See Zoom, on page 3–135 for the steps to set the horizontal lock feature.

author: xwarp
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2014, 02:24:14 pm
content: O.k.I was hoping that you'd say that the horizontal could be unlocked from the FFT display.I've still got some learning to do, so I'm not sure if that is possible.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2014, 04:10:15 pm
content: Quote from: xwarp on November 15, 2014, 02:24:14 pmWe were too cheap to buy the FFT option but my understanding from the user manual is that this should be possible.

author: Howardlong
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2014, 07:56:19 pm
content: Quote from: David Hess on November 15, 2014, 01:55:24 pmIf you are coming from a CRO without having ever used a modern DSO, I can see it making a little more sense: for example the delayed trigger is implemented similarly to a CRO. However, I do find that the menus are all over the place, and often not intuitive. I had the same problem as xwarp, in trying to get a single sweep, and, even worse, trying to go back to a continuous sweep, involving far too much random button pushing, and finally having to resort to the manual.I definitely think that it's just not a beginner scope, there will be lots of functionality that just wouldn't be used partially because the UI is just too hard to navigate, but also because there are concepts that work well with CROs that don't work well with DSOs and this shows it.Perhaps it's because I've been used to either a CRO like a 2465, or a more modern DSO, without anything in between. If it was my only scope I'm sure I'd be more inclined to work with it.As a "mountain to climb" achievement learning how to drive it though, I can recommend it!

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2014, 09:15:28 pm
content: The menu organization isn't really much different from standard layouts, but they sure made some boners. The sheer slowness is unforgivable. Several functions should've been brought out to buttons, like trigger settings that are three buttons deep (channel select, polarity, etc.) and vertical settings (coupling, termination), not to mention start/single/stop. The measurement menu is goofy too (if I want a new measurement, why don't you turn off the last fricking one that I don't need anymore instead of beeping at me?).Otherwise, a fine instrument, appears to be top-notch measurements anyway. The 'signal path compensation' stuff seems inelegant -- I don't know exactly what's in it, but it seems like a roundabout solution for something that should've been solved correctly the first time. It's not like they had technical limitations in the 90s, ECL/LVDS comparators were available (if not cheap, but we're talking Tek here).Tim

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2014, 11:12:12 pm
content: Quote from: Howardlong on November 15, 2014, 07:56:19 pmI never really understood delta delay timebases on newer oscilloscopes until working with a 7000 series with alternate timebase support which to me is now a really cool feature that no DSO supports. Delta delay timebases are a way to make accurate pulse width and delay measurements on analog oscilloscopes but some early DSOs supported this also.Quote from: T3sl4co1l on November 15, 2014, 09:15:28 pmThat is basically my thoughts about the interface on the Tektronix MSO/DPO4000 series.QuoteGoing by their older oscilloscopes, most of the signal path compensation corrects for offset drift versus temperature at various stages in the vertical signal path. Recalibration of the timebase occurs whenever the timebase configuration is changed.