Is it okay for systemd (on Linux) to "fall back" to G**gle's DNS? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2018, 10:07:50 pm
content: Lets say you don't enter in a DNS on some Internet enabled-thang, because you don't intend to connect it up to said Internet. But maybe it does get connected inadvertently, sometimes.Knowing that, IS it okay for (the systemd developers) tohard codethat 8.8.8.8 8.8.4.4 20...into the application?Quick poll, what does your computer return fromcat /etc/systemd/resolved.confThis is an important issue, for reasons I won't go into here. (because I'm pissed)

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2018, 10:34:03 pm
content: Quote from: cdev on January 29, 2018, 10:07:50 pmcat: /etc/systemd/resolved.conf: No such file or directoryShocking.

author: Paul Moir
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2018, 10:40:43 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on January 29, 2018, 10:34:03 pmLol!Nothing there in Kubuntu 17.10; it got quashed some time ago. That said, the apparent reason for it being there is that the distros were supposed to change it to a distro-relevent DNS server, but didn't. Do not attribute to malice what can be otherwise explained by lazyness...

author: grumpydoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2018, 10:47:34 pm
content: Not there in Scientific Linux eitherresolved is the systemd supplied name resolver, it isn't totally unreasonable for it to be configured with a default DNS server, though if you care you can do "./configure --with-dns-servers='<your-preferred-servers-here>'" and rebuildNow I would be a little worried if systemd itself makes DNS queries.Does the ability to make DNS searches make an "Internet enabled-thang" less secure if it "get(s) connected inadvertently", probably not markedly more so than "inadvertently" connecting it in the first place.Quote from: cdev on January 29, 2018, 10:07:50 pmAmerican English or British English usage of the phrase "pissed"?

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2018, 10:48:27 pm
content: Quote from: grumpydoc on January 29, 2018, 10:47:34 pmCan't it be both?

author: Macbeth
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2018, 11:59:45 pm
content: Quote from: blueskull on January 29, 2018, 10:49:28 pmI have the same with UbuntuCode:No LSB modules are available.Distributor ID: UbuntuDescription: Ubuntu 16.04.3 LTSRelease: 16.04Codename: xenialBut the # just means they are commented out anyway so have zero impact. It just so happens I use googles DNS servers anyway because only a fucking idiot would use a UK ISP's nameserver.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 30, 2018, 12:04:07 am
content: Quote from: Macbeth on January 29, 2018, 11:59:45 pmIts compiled into the code, that means thats the defaults. You may have to change it in the file to get different behavior.Systemd also has different, compiled in, NTP servers.The problem I have is that some corporations are clearly amoral.What does it take to not have amoral corporations inside hardware I have paid for?----------------Request domain name, e.g.www.g-----.comRequest type, e.g. A (which stands for IPv4 record), AAAA (IPv6 record), NS, MX, TXT, etc.Transport protocol on which the request arrived, i.e. TCP, UDP, or HTTPSClient's AS (autonomous system or ISP), e.g. AS15169User's geolocation information: i.e. geocode, region ID, city ID, and metro codeResponse code sent, e.g. SUCCESS, SERVFAIL, NXDOMAIN, etc.Whether the request hit our frontend cacheWhether the request hit a cache elsewhere in the system (but not in the frontend)Absolute arrival time in secondsTotal time taken to process the request end-to-end, in secondsName of the G----- machine that processed this request, e.g. machine101G----- target IP to which this request was addressed, e.g. one of our anycast IP addresses (no relation to the user's IP)

author: Macbeth
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 30, 2018, 12:12:08 am
content: Quote from: cdev on January 30, 2018, 12:04:07 amIt isn't compiled into the code, it is a user editable file distributed with the code. The suggestion of DNS server is commented out, but a far better choice than any ISP DNS server that would be the actual default if you don't override it - with this Google example being an example.

author: lundmar
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 30, 2018, 12:13:14 am
content: systemd does what systemd does - if you are worried about google simply change the fallback server.systemd is no longer a simple init system but a full fledged system layer for better or for worse.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 30, 2018, 12:13:54 am
content: Quote from: Macbeth on January 30, 2018, 12:12:08 amhttps://www.freedesktop.org/software/systemd/man/resolved.conf.htmlQuoteQuoteAt least do your research.Some distros disable this - others do not. Ubuntu might? Unclear, launchpad's a turd, not digging.

author: llkiwi2006
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 30, 2018, 12:16:31 am
content: I think using google dns as a fallback dns makes sense. From a user's perspective, you would still want your internet to just work™ even if your dhcp fucks up and doesn't give you a dns.I think your problem is if something really shouldn't connect to the internet, you need to make sure it can't "accidentally" connect. Why are you relying on dns configuration to limit internet access?

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 30, 2018, 01:07:22 am
content: "Pissed off" to me (American) means "angry".Quote from: wilfred on January 29, 2018, 11:38:14 pm

author: BradC
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 30, 2018, 01:22:10 am
content: Quote from: cdev on January 30, 2018, 01:07:22 amUs too, but you didn't write that. You wrote "pissed", which can also mean inebriated.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 30, 2018, 01:40:00 am
content: I'm sorry, I meant angry. The issue that is bugging me the most is the loss of privacy. It seems that these MNCs are massing huge amounts of data, and they have an agenda and its one that conflicts directly with democracy. (something I care a lot about)We may think we have a free press but we don't.The most important issues aren't getting any coverage, and I'm certain thats intentional.

author: grumpydoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 30, 2018, 09:49:33 am
content: Quote from: cdev on January 30, 2018, 01:40:00 amOK I don't disagree with the above but II'm struggling to see why you are so pissed off about this.Systemd includes a name resolver (resolved) and, presumably in the interests of being "user friendly" it has a default DNS server configured at build time.Whatever you think of google - and I'm not sure they have followed the "do no evil" mantra in a long time - people are often advised to switch their DNS server to a google one being told they are more "trustworthy" than the ISP server, or to bypass filtering implemented by the ISP at the DNS level. Given that Google offers a globally reachable DNS server which answers requests to all and sundry it isn't a totally unreasonable choice.In fact in most configurations systemd's resolved would not use the default - if /etc/resolv.conf is there it will scan it for DNS servers and if you use NetworkManager /etc/resolv.conf will be populated with the results of the DHCP response when the box asks for an IP address,But you are in a free world here - you have choices- don't use systemd- don't use resolved (I use named as a local server so reliance only on the 'net root servers).- configure systemd with your favoured DNS server at build time- edit /etc/systemd/resolved.conf- edit /etc/resolv.conf- Don't let the device have access to the internetAs I said above, "inadvertent" conenction is the real problem here - if you have IoT things that are calling home block them at your firewall.

author: borjam
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 30, 2018, 10:03:19 am
content: Quote from: cdev on January 29, 2018, 10:07:50 pmThe systemd guys are not exactly famous for being security conscious, or even sane, I'm afraid.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 30, 2018, 10:32:18 am
content: Quote from: borjam on January 30, 2018, 10:03:19 amIndeed. The systemd guys are just fucking dickhead part monkey shite eagles of the highest order. I agree that the problem needed solving but not via having to jam a traffic bollard up your own arse every time you go near it. And for the proponents, you wait until you get a hosed box that won't boot. The whole Linux boot process, added to the joys of initrd etc has turned into a massive rube goldberg machine. You know what? We don't even fix it now. Just hose the box and redeploy with ansible.Back on topic: no it's not acceptable. For many reasons:1. This is what DHCP is for. Use the right tools for the job. The moment you don't use the right tools you end up with two problems to solve every time something goes wrong, which it will because it's systemd.2. This is not how the Internet is supposed to work. DNS is supposed to be load balanced via delegation across the planet. You should use your ISP's DNS servers to avoid adding more traffic and latency and then add a reputable upstream as 3rd/4th DNS servers. If you have a large network, you should run your own edge cache (nscd / windows DNS etc)3. The provider they default to tracks location and requests made and stores your IP address for 24 hours at least.4. If you're airgapped, mobile or temporarily connected, this causes all sorts of fuckage.5. Open source is about choice. Providing a default is removing a choice.6. Google's implementation has wild and scary latency peaks that really fuck with your network performance.7. Google's implementation is closed, proprietary and that's not how we play ball on the internet thank you very much.

author: borjam
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 30, 2018, 10:48:20 am
content: Quote from: bd139 on January 30, 2018, 10:32:18 amGoogle's implementation is good, but you are at their mercy. Moreover, no matter how good Google are operating their network (they really are!) I've seen they fail several times.And the way they handle their network doesn't let your ISP make decisions in case of need. Google doesn't necessarily follow information received with BGP; they manage their own network using SDN techniques and they even operate your network by monitoring latencies, throughputs and retransmissions. Unfortunately, it may turn out that their traffic works perfectly but they may be hurting other users.I remember the frustration of building a good performance recursive resolver service using anycast only to have users complain that "Internet doesn't work" because of a Google error.So yes, there shouldneverbe a hardcoded DNS server address. Trying to correct poor configuration or administrator errors can make people lazy and, at worst, have potentially serious security consequences.

author: grumpydoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 30, 2018, 10:55:56 am
content: QuoteOh, FFS providing a default is not removing anyone's choice.For most people running systemd, in most scenarios, the fallback DNSwill not be used.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 30, 2018, 11:15:36 am
content: Quote from: grumpydoc on January 30, 2018, 10:55:56 amIt is when there was a race condition in systemd-resolved that caused the fallback servers to get called anyway. And that's systemd for you. Never trust it. The original implementation, which appears to have been changed fortunately, hard coded the fucking servers into the binarySeriously there should be no default here. 100% never a default. It's wrong on so many levels.Please note that bitch-slapping Poettering is one of my hobbies. Most of my github activity is this and whining at MSFT's open source projects.

author: Nusa
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 30, 2018, 11:44:46 am
content: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/systemd/+bug/1449001Bug reported in 2015, good explanations in the report and comments. Proper fix released about 6 months ago, if this is your flavor of linux.Psst cdev, do you know about the default NTP server list?[NTP_SERVERS="time1.google.com time2.google.com time3.google.com time4.google.com"]

author: Jeroen3
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 30, 2018, 11:49:57 am
content: Quote from: cdev on January 29, 2018, 10:07:50 pmYou don't provide a gateway. There will be no route 0.0.0.0.DNS is not the correct way to block internet access.Layer 8 error imho.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 30, 2018, 12:59:33 pm
content: Yes, I actually found that one first and it was making me wonder, where else had this been done. Now I know.Quote from: Nusa on January 30, 2018, 11:44:46 am

author: grumpydoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 30, 2018, 01:25:48 pm
content: Quote from: Jeroen3 on January 30, 2018, 11:49:57 am+1Or block at the firewall.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 30, 2018, 01:56:30 pm
content: I need to learn a lot of new things to understand what is happening with ipv6.I need to understand a lot more about Internet security generally. We all do.

author: grumpydoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 30, 2018, 02:52:56 pm
content: Quote from: Nusa on January 30, 2018, 11:44:46 amThat's an interesting read I agree, which demonstrates how the provision of default DNS fallback masked other bugs in systemd.But this is a straightforward bug - resolved is a systemd component, it should know not to do DNS queries before the network is fully up, and systemd should know when that is the case.As to the security issues - well, DNS queries are pretty public anyhow. If you use your ISP resolvers you have to trust your ISP, and not all are trustworthy IMO. If you use an edge copy of bind (as I do) your queries will be visible to your ISP and everything between you, the root servers and all the intermediate servers to the final resolver that you need to talk to.If you care about this - which is reasonable - then use DNSCrypt and block regular DNS at the edge of your network.Resolved having a configured-in fallback would frustrating if it could not be changed at all but that isn't the case.Quote from: cdev on January 30, 2018, 01:56:30 pmI still have IPV6 on the TODO list, for now I verified I could get an edge address, then turned it off.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 30, 2018, 02:55:50 pm
content: What about setting up your own DNS to connect to the root name servers (and authenticate them?)

author: grumpydoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 30, 2018, 03:05:23 pm
content: Quote from: cdev on January 30, 2018, 02:55:50 pmI'm not currently running DNSSEC, but might. I have an edge server and do not use my ISP resolvers** so, yes, my queries start out at the root servers.** Though I do trust my ISP, it was one of the criteria for choosing an ISP.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 30, 2018, 03:53:16 pm
content: Andrews and Arnold?

author: borjam
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 30, 2018, 04:12:35 pm
content: Quote from: cdev on January 30, 2018, 02:55:50 pmI do it at home but only because I use to do anycast experiments.Despite having a FTTH line with a low latency (< 4 ms) name resolutions can be slow. Being the sole user of your shiny DNS servers will mean that most of your queries won't hit a cache.Moreover, running a recursive name server has its fine points. Notably, source port randominzation. You want to make sure that it has enoughports available for outgoing connections.You can test it using this web page:https://www.dns-oarc.net/oarc/services/dnsentropyor, in case it doesn't work (seems they have some problems) use the command mode test.https://www.dns-oarc.net/oarc/services/porttest

author: grumpydoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 30, 2018, 04:12:58 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on January 30, 2018, 03:53:16 pmYes

author: IanMacdonald
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 30, 2018, 05:32:54 pm
content: Should fall back to using DHCP. In which case DNS is set by DHCP server.Systemd == Linux Vista.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 30, 2018, 05:42:17 pm
content: That’s not a bad analogy. Systemd is like adding NT service manager and event viewer to the OS. DBus is the bastard child of DCOM and MSMQ.

author: technix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 30, 2018, 06:30:45 pm
content: Actually I do find it a good fallback option when all other DNS server configuration strategies failed, trying a known good DNS server before bailing out, and being Google servers it is much more likely that they would work. It would be curious if this behavior is introduced by Google's engineers working on systemd. (Although on my specific server all DNS requests from internal network is caught and redirected to my DNSCrypt proxy and sent out encrypted.)Systemd is more of a blatant copy of Apple's launchd and mDNSResponder without the plists. The Linux community overall is copying a lot of Apple's design decisions recently, especially on the desktop front. Wayland is a copy of WindowServer without Mach IPC dependency. I bet that Vulkan and DirectX 12 takes inspirations from Metal. I actually do see it as a progress since Apple is so far the most successful company marketing a desktop UNIX to consumers.

author: imidis
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 30, 2018, 06:32:48 pm
content: Personally I despise systemd and uniity

author: CharlieEcho
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 30, 2018, 06:35:54 pm
content: I think it's OK to have a fallback, but it should be read from a .conf so it can be changed. Not hard coded in source. And the default should be documented.4.2.2.2 still responds reliably, if you'd rather not rely on google. I think it's Verizon these days, not sure. If nothing's changed it's a pretty low-level server.

author: technix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 30, 2018, 06:50:29 pm
content: Quote from: CharlieEcho on January 30, 2018, 06:35:54 pmThe hard coded DNS servers is intended to be used when even the .conf is missing. When all you can have is the program binary and maybe a bare bones filesystem (like during initramfs) you need something that is guarantees to be loaded even before the first line of code is executed.

author: CharlieEcho
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 30, 2018, 06:58:28 pm
content: well, if that's the requirement I suppose you have to pick something...

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 30, 2018, 07:47:42 pm
content: Quote from: technix on January 30, 2018, 06:50:29 pmAnd how is it going to use that DNS server?

author: paulca
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 30, 2018, 07:56:03 pm
content: An initrd probably won't have much of a systemd setup either, though it's possible.SysVInit still work fine for me, so I'm not upgrading it until they (Gentoo) force me.If you can't find /etc/systemd/resolv.conf, it might well be in the older location /etc/resolv.conf. If it's not their either just create it.Also pay attention nssswitch.conf which lets you set the order of priority between files, dns, nis etc.If you hard code DNS IP into you app, how is the system going to know that is the DNS to use, unless you call some systemdctl fandangle thing. You could of course use a non-system called based nslookup function or implement the DNS request yourself.Unless you take action in the networking config the DNS server is likely to default on 99% of distros to whatever the DHCP server sends it. Be warned, dhcpcd client will overwrite your /etc/resolv.conf at will, which can be annoying if you have it manually set.Code:paul@localhost ~ $ cat /etc/systemd/resolved.confcat: /etc/systemd/resolved.conf: No such file or directorypaul@localhost ~ $ cat /etc/resolved.confcat: /etc/resolved.conf: No such file or directorypaul@localhost ~ $ cat /etc/resolv.conf# Generated by dhcpcd from eth0# /etc/resolv.conf.head can replace this linenameserver 8.8.8.8# /etc/resolv.conf.tail can replace this line

author: janoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 30, 2018, 10:21:08 pm
content: Quote from: IanMacdonald on January 30, 2018, 05:32:54 pmChrist, people, engage brain before bashing stuff.That fallback is designed to be a fallbackwhen DHCP does not provide DNSfor whatever reason. How do you imagine it "falling back to using DHCP" when DHCP does not provide correct DNS??

author: paulca
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 30, 2018, 10:40:01 pm
content: Quote from: janoc on January 30, 2018, 10:21:08 pmApologies as I made this mistake too, I am too familiar with the old, working, non fussy, simple and robust sysvinit and /etc/resolv.conf. It wasn't broken I have no idea who let someone masturbate over it and produce systemd. Well I can understand it, but why make it default for most distros. It's overly complex, requires template init scripts with meta data, even then I couldn't get a simple init script to work on Raspberry PI before I lost my temper and added it to rc.local.Ubuntu is another example of making things configure automagically just like Windows. The downside is, when the automagical side fails for you, you can't even edit the configs because it will regenerate them and overwrite them. NetworkManager for example will destroy your hand done configs for you. Grub on Ubuntu is unusable without using it's automagical thing. In work for 3 years I booted my workstation by manually typing at the grub console. It was better than trying workout the non-sense that Ubuntu had done with grub.conf... a VERY, VERY simple mechanism turned into a fiasco, deathstar of auto config. They are turning it into windows! I wish they would stop.Recently there was an initiative to do this with the RC set up. It was rewritten in C rather than bash. I watched warnings go up the screen about converting my configs for over a year until suddenly everyone got sick of it and went back to bash.I was hoping that systemd was another trend and would go away.Then again maybe I'm just resistant to change and if someone can give me a gunuine reason to favour the over complicated nature of systemd I might consider it.</rant>

author: janoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 30, 2018, 10:46:33 pm
content: Quote from: CharlieEcho on January 30, 2018, 06:35:54 pmThe default is /etc/resolv.conf and its ilk. If your distribution doesn't configure things correctly that's not really problem of systemd. The default in systemd comes into play onlywhen everything else fails, i.e. practically never.The default is documented here:https://www.freedesktop.org/software/systemd/man/resolved.conf.html#FallbackDNS=It doesn't say it defaults to Google's DNS but that could wary depending on how the distro configures systemd. Using it for managing DNS, NTP and such is actually not that common, most Linuxes don't use those bits of the systemd suite (contrary to the popular belief, it is not one monolitic tool but an entire suite of programs and daemons).BTW, there is another "default" enabled on many modern distributions when DHCP fails - zcip aka Zeroconf or Bonjour. Which will also try to resolve names for you. Nobody bashes that one for some reason ...

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 30, 2018, 11:06:17 pm
content: I do.I would like to say "Adieu" to "Bonjour"!Quote from: janoc on January 30, 2018, 10:46:33 pm

author: lundmar
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 30, 2018, 11:35:45 pm
content: Quote from: paulca on January 30, 2018, 10:40:01 pmsystemd started out as a simple init system based on very aggressive mechanisms for parallel start of services (in particular socket based services, ideas stolen from mac etc.). However, agendas and technologies change and new ideas arrive and so systemd has basically evolved into a fully fledged user space system layer offering many and well defined system services. Distributions using systemd accepts the systemd way of doing things. This is great news for Linux because it helps reduce fragmentation - it is one of the main reasons systemd is successful and likely to remain successful in the future. However, if you don't like the systemd way of doing things then systemd is bad news.There are things that I like and don't like about systemd. In particular I'm not happy that systemd tends to re-implement existing solutions/services instead of perhaps attempting to integrate existing ones. However, I have accepted systemd long time ago because I see the end goal of a more unified Linux experience across distributions which will help make Linux a successful alternative to Windows on the desktop.

author: janoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 30, 2018, 11:40:02 pm
content: Quote from: paulca on January 30, 2018, 10:40:01 pmQuote from: paulca on January 30, 2018, 10:40:01 pmWhich has nothing to do with systemd and everything with the way Ubuntu has chosen to configure their system. Systemd does not generate config files.Quote from: paulca on January 30, 2018, 10:40:01 pmThe problem is that a lot of people ranting about systemd don't really know what it is for and why it was created.Replacing the problematic SystemV init is only one its purpose. BTW, SystemV style init really *is* problematic - think unmanaged concurrency between scripts, think lack of dependency checking between scripts, lack of monitoring for started processes - there is plenty of material written on it online, not going to repeat it all here. Those things were traditionally handled by an enormous spaghetti mess of fragile (and buggy) shell scripts and it never worked too well.Actually once you read the documentation, writing service files for systemd init ismuch simplerthan writing arobustSystemV init script (aka not a hacked up mess, but a script that actually checks whether the daemon is running, restarts it if not, doesn't start it twice, waits until the pre-requisites such as network are up, etc.). A systemd service file doing all this is perhaps 10 lines, including comments.The other big thing systemd is for is support for hotpluggable devices (USB but not only) and dynamically changing configuration - that is something SystemV style init could never do properly. The bits and pieces around managing DNS, NTP, routing, etc. are basically consequences of this. If you plug in an USB network card (e.g. a 3G modem dongle), then there are plenty of things that may have to be reconfigured - and that is exactly what systemd is designed to deal with.The implementation can be debated, but the idea is sound - there is nothing else that can do what it does. This is mostly important for supporting modern desktops, where the user expects that turning on wifi will actually configure the card and network correctly, that any USB devices will work as intended (udev is part of systemd suite too), that plugging in USB headset will redirect e.g. your Skype to it (that's PulseAudio doing it but it needs to be notified that something was plugged in - which is systemd/udev's job), etc.All of the above needs to be accessible from user space too, so that user's applications can be told that there is a new device or request mounting of a USB stick, for example. This happens through D-BUS messages to the various systemd components.Before systemd the non-privileged user could, for example, only bring up/down network interfaces (e.g. to turn wifi on/off) only by running system commands using sudo or some suid root binaries. Which is hardly ideal - both from the compatibility point of view (distros traditionally use different ways for managing network and the commands aren't the same) and also from the security point of view - suid root binary is only one buffer overflow away from a privilege escalation and system compromise.Of course, if you don't care about the desktop, there is little need for systemd because basic hardware (network cards mainly) tends to be fixed. (however, there are things that are useful even for the server folks - such as cgroups management).However, there happens to be a lot of people who want to use Linux for other things than running servers and virtual machines. And for the distro developers it is easier to maintain one system that does all this than a separate one with a ton of hackish shell scripts for a systemd-free server.Until someone writes something that actually does the job that systemd does today better, we are going to be stuck with it, I am afraid. Bashing it (and its author) is cheap but there aren't really any comparable alternatives for the many functions these tools do. It is by far not about the SystemV init only.

author: janoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 30, 2018, 11:52:54 pm
content: Quote from: cdev on January 30, 2018, 11:06:17 pmAnd why, exactly?You never needed to discover services on the local network, such as a printer or a computer that has a dynamic IP and you don't know it? A typical case is plugging in a RaspberryPi without monitor and keyboard - if you have Zeroconf/Bonjour enabled and the Pi is configured for remote access via SSH, all you have to do is to connect to:ssh pi@raspberrypi.localI certainly prefer to use Zeroconf/Bonjour which is well documented and standard (http://www.zeroconf.org/- relevant RFCs are linked from there) than hacks like UPNP or Microsoft's LLMNR, which apart from Windows nothing else uses. Zeroconf is also fairly easy to implement on small microcontrollers that want to advertise their presence on the network - the packet format is very simple.Btw, if you want to turn off Zeroconf in Linux (I guess not in Windows, as Windows doesn't come with it, it has only the link local addressing), you do it like this (assuming systemd managed system and the name of the service could vary slightly):$ sudo systemctl stop avahi-daemon$ sudo systemctl disable avahi-daemonProblem solved.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 30, 2018, 11:58:15 pm
content: Except it keeps turning itself back on again.Seriously.Services like that are entirely appropriate for some environments, and entirely inappropriate for others.What I don't like is the coercive way that these "services" make themselves next to impossible to remove or disable.

author: paulca
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2018, 01:43:51 am
content: In further evaluation, what causes my hate/fear of systemd is probably what you describe it's intended to fix.When I was learning Linux first back in year 2000 I found it incredibly difficult to make sense of things because starting on Mandrake sometimes Red Hat instructions worked, sometimes they didn't. Everything seemed to be almost random. Things were in different places, called different things, done different ways. It was frustrating. I tried different distros, didn't find one that "clicked" and made sense compared to online documentation.I found a website called "Linux from scratch" and I believe at the time it's opening paragraph was about the only way to truely know what a Linux system is and does is to build one from the ground up. A few "boot loader to login" guides added in and I think I did actually do "blinky" or "hello world" linux style by compiling a kernel and setting the init= to a helloworld C program outputing the "console".I built my Linux from scratch of course and I understood more and more of how it worked. By that I mean, when you take the packages as released by the developers and put them together with the minimal amount of tinkering, patching, reconfiguring (ala Distros) it was much easier to understand as things made sense. The documentation matched the software documentation etc.The downside is, the niceties that distros provide auto-magically were not available. You found your own way to do something, even if it meant hacking the code. Sometimes you realised you just hadn't switched something on and the investigation of an issue you put off for weeks turned out to take 5 minutes to resolve.Linux from scratch was great, I used it for 3 or 4 years. I build scripts for building it and used a few build process automation tools to be able (at one point) to format a partition, mount it, compile and configure a fresh install completely from source, update the bootloader and reboot. If everything compiled though. On an AthlonXP 1.8Ghz that took around 20 hours to find out if you would make it to a working shell, another 20 hours to make it fully into KDE with sound and a browser.I moved to Gentoo as it provided a much more flexible mechanism around the installation from software approach.Back to systemd. It bothered me as I have used it on distros and I read the guide on Gentoo for the upgrade and have only had frustration with it. I believe this comes from the fact that I understand how to configure a network, write an init script, mount a drive, hot swap a soundcard. So when things don't work I know were to look and the questions to ask. When I'm faced with a systemd system I get confusing results, things aren't were they are supposed to be. Something is always fighting me.A few facts that might make you laugh.I still mount USB devices by su'ing and using mount. The same goes for network drives.I spent 3 months with broken sound, so badly broke I was down to sound in one browser tab or sound client at a time and if I swapped a sound card I had to reboot. At least now I have fully swappable sound cards and duplex sound. Simply because I stopped neglecting my .asoundrc and fixed it up properly. I still have broken sound in KDE. KDE sound setup is a bit mental and I believe it's because it's DBus and it's SystemD adaptions are getting confused that I don't even have systemd installed so it doesn't respond to hardware updates. (It used to though).I don't run X as root. Never have. I don't run a login manager for X. My PC boots to a getty login prompt. I login, then I run startx. I was burnt too badly by failed X11 drivers which simply caused the X display to respawn every 5 seconds (a security feature required by running X as a multiuser system with graphical login... if you can knock X over you could get it's shell as root). The only way to fix this was to reboot into single user mode, make a config or driver change and reboot to retry again. Back in the early days of Voodoo cards and getting things like Mesa and OpenGL to play nice this failing X happened a lot. Thus I stopped using the X login. I disabled X completely in inittab or booted to run level 3 by default. When I started X from a console it tried once and returned me to my shell with the log displayed on the screen.Would it be nice to have all the comforts of ubuntu? Possibly, for somethings, sometimes. But I can do them myself, my way if I want. Or work out what the conventionally way they were meant to be done and follow that. Don't think I'm spending all my time in a console either. I have a fully function KDE5 setup, my browsers, media players, spotify, the works, but I have "Konsole" as the first item on my quick start and I have full "su", none of that sudo muck. I built this system. I may have moved to compiling it with Gentoo, but I built it from the ground up. If it does something that's because I configured it to do that. I have been running this system without reinstall for around 10 years. It has migrated between about 3 PCs in that time and seem all manor of hardware and software changes. It's had good days and bad days, it's even been dead and unbootable a few times, but it's mine.I understand I am not your typical Linux user. I understand the more it behaves as auto-magic as windows the more likely people are to move to it.That does not come free though. In my experience I have found that automating things often removes them from being human manageable. It's like you can have "easy to understand for a developer, impossible for a noob" or you can have, "complex, frustrating and obtuse for a developer, easy for a noob".Then there are the "DONK, I can't let you do that Dave, moments". Like plugging a non-standard USB card into Ubuntu or trying to mount a SMB share from the internet with Ubuntu when it refuses to see it. I set off into sudo -i land try and try and do it myself, but... what's this... where is /dev/sd* ? WTF? Why is the -t smbfs not working? Why are all my hard disk partitions named with hash code UIIDs? I invariably get angry. I can often get round their annoyances, but I often have to brutal to do it, ripping out config, killing deamons or pausing auto spawning ones. Reconfiguring udev rules. The booting from grub thing. How are you meant to work out which partition is your / when they all have names like FF67-77AB-234ED and group uses /dev/sda1 or HD(0,0)So when it works, great, pointy clicky, draggy droppy fantastic.When it doesn't. Nightmare. You either fully understand all the auto-magical behind the scenes stuff and get friendly with the man behind the curtain or you struggle.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2018, 07:45:09 am
content: Same journey. Still use startx. If I ever use X which is rarely as I use the things as an ssh destination only.FreeBSD gets service management and boot right. Even though I rarely use it, I can recover a fucked machine regardless of the state.When a CentOS 7 box turns up that has mdraid and systemd drops into recovery mode, or does nothing, you realise what a fucked up pile of shit Linux boot is. mdraid, grub, initrd, systemd all work together to make your day hard.

author: borjam
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 31, 2018, 08:00:59 am
content: Quote from: paulca on January 31, 2018, 01:43:51 amThat's one of the most serious problem with many Linux users. Documentation is often poor and there is a lot of chaos. I always recommend people to learn Unix. Once you have really grasped what it's about you will be ready to understand the many nuances present in Linux.The easiest route is (in my opinion) to begin with a BSD system (FreeBSD is the easiest to manage) together with a good book on the subject (I always recommend a classic: "UNIX and Linux System Administration Handbook".In order to get a better perspective try a System V version such as Solaris. And armed with that experience you will be in a much better position to tame the Linux chaos.

author: paulca
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2018, 08:20:49 am
content: Quote from: bd139 on January 31, 2018, 07:45:09 amTo me it makes it more like Windows in that regard.It brings configuration and management to the same level as Microsoft Word generated HTML, verbose, limited, buggy, gibberish which is next to impossible to fix yourself.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2018, 09:20:34 am
content: Windows is a piece of piss to recover though compared to linux:1. Format a new disk with NTFS2. Mark it as active.3. Copy all the files over using xcopy.4. Run bootsect on the volume.5. When it comes up, convert to dynamic disk and add the other volume back as a mirror.Takes 5 minutes of effort + file copy.Linux us MUCH worse.

author: paulca
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2018, 10:18:10 am
content: Quote from: bd139 on January 31, 2018, 09:20:34 amI think we are talking about different types of broken. I'm referring to when the auto configuration goes nuts and gets itself confused, corrupted and the system just goes mental. In Linux nothing is hidden away from you, if you have the right know how you can fix anything in a running system.As to failed discs on linux.cp -a /mnt/old_drive/* /mnt/new_drivechroot /mnt/new_drive /bin/bash --loginvi /boot/grub/grub.confgrub-installexitrebootUnless you are in Ubuntu or other distro that makes grub config obnoxious

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2018, 10:32:17 am
content: Try that with an mdraid volumeReally windows is fine in this space. There are only two killers I find and that is network location awareness and shitty broadcom network drivers. If you eliminate them then it's very reliable. I've had NT4 nodes up for 8 years (airgapped of course)

author: paulca
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2018, 11:09:17 am
content: Quote from: bd139 on January 31, 2018, 10:32:17 amYea, that an LVM bollox.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2018, 12:12:39 pm
content: LVM is horrid.Again FreeBSD + ZFS = nice.

author: borjam
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 31, 2018, 12:16:16 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on January 31, 2018, 12:12:39 pmDon't waste energy, I've been admonished so many times by people claiming that ZFS doesn't have anything that LVM doesn't!!! (BS of course, but I was provided with "alternative facts" of course)The Holy Church of Licenciology has a serious problem. Whenever a license is not kosher they can go to unbelievable lengths to avoid using a "tainted" piece of software. Nuts!

author: technix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2018, 12:49:34 pm
content: Quote from: borjam on January 31, 2018, 12:16:16 pmI do find some reasoning in this kind of behavior. They have been bitten by SCO, Microsoft and some other big entities before in litigation with kosher code, and they have the scare of AT&T vs Berkeley over non-kosher BSD. If they failed to keep the code kosher with the licenses they will become one giant target of lawsuits and complaints.Quote from: paulca on January 31, 2018, 10:18:10 amThis is a common behavior of almost all UNIXes. macOS does this too - I can asr-restore copy my installation onto a SD card and it will still boot (Apple put their bootloader directly inside the machine's EFI. And my standard procedure of reinstalling a Mac in booting off a SD card pre-loaded with either a working instance of macOS or the macOS installer) For Linux I have been installing systems on bcache before it was mainlined and it relied on being able to rsync a system over from a scratch monkey into bcache.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2018, 12:50:43 pm
content: Quote from: borjam on January 31, 2018, 12:16:16 pmYeah been down that road a few times as wellAll the whining sounds like this to me:

author: BradC
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2018, 01:10:03 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on January 31, 2018, 10:32:17 amJust because you don't understand it doesn't make it bad or difficult.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2018, 01:18:02 pm
content: I understand it perfectly well.Your day has clearly never been ruined by:# mdadmBus errorThe bus error was caused by a bug. This was a down system which was hosed.

author: paulca
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2018, 01:26:55 pm
content: Quote from: BradC on January 31, 2018, 01:10:03 pmTechnically speaking it does make it both bad AND difficult "for you" at that moment in time.As to whether it is good and easy for others at other times is indeterminable in the current context</pedantry>

author: CharlieEcho
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2018, 01:36:54 pm
content: I see thescary devil monasterylives on.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2018, 01:41:49 pm
content: I miss that newsgroup, and trn, and uucp.

author: grumpydoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2018, 01:53:06 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on January 31, 2018, 12:12:39 pmZFS is on Linux if you want it - just not bundled so you have to put a bit of work in.I gather that Linux is not felt to be a "natural home" for ZFS though.

author: paulca
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2018, 02:03:36 pm
content: What about this as an alternative?https://github.com/yarrick/pingfs

author: borjam
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 31, 2018, 02:16:19 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on January 31, 2018, 01:41:49 pmThat reminds me, turns out that Apple removed telnet and ftp from Mac OS X. But, look at this:Code:Zaphod-2:etc borjam$ ls -l /usr/bin/uucp /usr/sbin/uucico /usr/bin/uux-r-xr-xr-x 1 _uucp wheel 93648 Sep 21 06:35 /usr/bin/uucp-r-xr-xr-x 1 _uucp wheel 97760 Sep 21 06:35 /usr/bin/uux-r-xr-xr-x 1 _uucp wheel 232752 Sep 21 06:35 /usr/sbin/uucicoOne of these days I must try it. Would be fun if it worked!Code:borjam$ uuchkconfig file: /usr/share/uucp/configsys file: /usr/share/uucp/sysport file: /usr/share/uucp/portdial file: /usr/share/uucp/dialdialcode file: /usr/share/uucp/dialcodepasswd file: /usr/share/uucp/passwdcall file: /usr/share/uucp/callSpool directory /var/spool/uucpPublic directory /var/spool/uucp_pubdirLock directory /var/spool/uucpLog file /var/log/uucp/LogStatistics file /var/log/uucp/StatsDebug file /var/log/uucp/DebugGlobal debugging leveluucico -l will strip login names and passwordsuucico will strip UUCP protocol commandsStart uuxqt once per uucico invocationSystem: uucpsys1When called using any login nameCall out using a specially defined portThe port is defined as:Port name system portPort type tcpTCP service uucpCharacteristics: eight-bit-clean reliable end-to-end fullduplexRemote address uucpsys1.apple.comChat script "" \r\c ogin:-BREAK-ogin:-BREAK-ogin: \L word: \PChat script timeout 10Chat script incoming bytes stripped to seven bitsLogin name uucp_tstPassword sekretAt any time may call if any work (retry 1)May retry the call up to 26 timesMay make local requests when callingMay make local requests when calledMay send by local request: /May send by remote request: /May accept by local request: /var/spool/uucp_pubdirMay receive by remote request: /var/spool/uucp_pubdirMay execute ALLExecution path /bin /sbin /usr/bin /usr/sbinWill leave 50000 bytes availablePublic directory is /var/spool/uucp_pubdirWill use protocols tSystem: uucpsys2When called using any login nameCall out using a specially defined portThe port is defined as:Port name system portPort type tcpTCP service uucpCharacteristics: eight-bit-clean reliable end-to-end fullduplexRemote address uucpsys2.apple.comChat script "" \r\c ogin:-BREAK-ogin:-BREAK-ogin: \L word: \PChat script timeout 10Chat script incoming bytes stripped to seven bitsLogin name uucp_tstPassword sekretAt any time may call if any work (retry 1)May retry the call up to 26 timesMay make local requests when callingMay make local requests when calledMay send by local request: /May send by remote request: /May accept by local request: /var/spool/uucp_pubdirMay receive by remote request: /var/spool/uucp_pubdirMay execute ALLExecution path /bin /sbin /usr/bin /usr/sbinWill leave 50000 bytes availablePublic directory is /var/spool/uucp_pubdirWill use protocols tThe trickiest part will be to make a modem work on a VoIP line, though

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2018, 02:32:28 pm
content: Didn't know UUCP was still in there! telnet and ftp are insecure and network bound so I understand why they have removed them.If you've got IP only then you're probably screwed. I reckon you could have fun with that and a couple of radio modems though like thesehttp://www.radiotelemetry.co.uk/sections/radio-modems.aspTempted to set up one to the shed.mail server!shed!bd139

author: lundmar
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2018, 02:36:18 pm
content: Linux from scratch is great if you want to learn the details of how user space Linux works.It is also worth noticing that even LFS is now supporting systemd.Clearly, a lot of people enjoy tinkering with their Linux system and spend time doing so - I think that is great. For some it is a hobby, for others it is work or both.However, in general, if you are still using startx to manually start your desktop session or fighting to get your hardware working then I think you are doing it wrong!

author: CharlieEcho
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2018, 02:43:42 pm
content: The trickiest part will be to make a modem work on a VoIP line, thoughFax works w/t.38 so I suspect you'd just need a VOIP provider with fax support and a compatible ATA. Or else a software modem that shows up like a normal device.Good luck with bang path addressing on the contemporary internet.Of course, APRS is still using a form of X.25 so....

author: borjam
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 31, 2018, 03:01:10 pm
content: Quote from: CharlieEcho on January 31, 2018, 02:43:42 pmIt will work at a low speed, probably V.32 (9660 bps) tops.I remember when telecommunications were liberalized in Spain in the late 90's. Several long distance carriers appeared and you couldroute your call just through them just by adding a prefix. Soon I found that at least one of the alternative carriers was using voice compression in their trunks and a 28800 bps V.34 modem was limited to 9600 bps (V.32). Not sure about the voice codecs.Considering finding a phone line simulator like those made by Pika many years ago just for the fun of it. And they will love it at the local university for a "vintage communications demo"

author: paulca
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2018, 03:28:39 pm
content: Quote from: lundmar on January 31, 2018, 02:36:18 pmIt's less about fighting and more about breaking things than putting fixing it off because you have a work around.I often groan when a discussion on something like a USB to Serial adapter explodes into 1000s of internet posts because Ubuntu doesn't ship with the driver and the poor Ubuntu users suddenly realise that binary drivers are a curse and compiling a source driver on a distro isn't all that easy either. The first kernel I compiled was for RedHat. I gave up in the end. I unpacked a vanilla kernel and had it built in minutes. The reason is the RedHat kernel build process is super hacked to be super generic and support everything under the sun.My kernel has all my normal hardware compiled in. The only thing in modules is stuff like USB dongles and adapters, or anything that might benefit from being unloaded and reloaded.The same applies for my software installs, for one examples, nothing has printer support because I have no printer. Nothing has touchscreen, graphics pad, standing desk, kitchen sink support either, because I don't have any of thus things either... except the kitchen sink.This makes it small, light, performant, easy to diagnose (ish).The downside ... as I discovered the last time I bought a printer... the proposed recompile to globally enable printer support was a bit frightening. So I build on the apps I needed with printer support.Also when I get a new USB widget I usually have to go "make menuconfig" and find the driver and compile it.

author: lundmar
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2018, 04:35:33 pm
content: Quote from: paulca on January 31, 2018, 03:28:39 pmThats greatYour approach to running Linux is quite different from mine.What I do, is make sure that the hardware I buy is well supported by Ubuntu. This way I avoid having to mess with the system. In fact I make a point of not tinkering with the system because it makes Ubuntu system upgrades more prone to failure. For example, I've been running Ubuntu Linux upgrades on my laptop for the last 5 years without ever having to roll my own kernel or apply any sort of hacks, simply because of this strategy. Everything just works.I guess my point is, all the work you have described you are doing to make things work is very much a consequence of your choices. For desktop, I prefer less work. But thats my choice

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2018, 04:48:07 pm
content: I prefer less work too which is why I'm sitting in front of a Thinkpad running windows and that was only because I smashed the screen on my macbook and can't be arsed to deal with it at the moment

author: paulca
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2018, 05:02:20 pm
content: Quote from: lundmar on January 31, 2018, 04:35:33 pmMaking/sourcing hardware to support software is such an anti-pattern it's disturbing. I remember it starting back in the 90s when stuff started shipping with "Designed for Win95". That and the whole host of dumb printers with zero control logic inside them, just a few MCUs to control stepper motors and the cartridges. All the actual logic was in the driver.It is what it is though and I do tend to check "Linux support". I do not look for distro specifics though as I am more-or-less distro agnostic. That said I do have to fight or go along with some Gentoo mandated things... or follow the Gentoo way occasionally for a bit of peace usually.

author: lundmar
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2018, 05:06:14 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on January 31, 2018, 04:48:07 pmHa ha - thats hard to fixMy laptop keyboard is missing keycaps for the following keys: 2,3,4,alt, right shift. I just can't be bothered to fix them so I'm pressing directly on the rubber domes, some of which has now broken off lol.My laptop, a Sony SVZ1311, is just worn down in general but there has been nothing on the market good enough to replace it. Well, until now. The new Dell XPS13 seems like a worthy replacement.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2018, 05:17:00 pm
content: Yeah. I should fix it though. It's just sitting there going "hahaha you stupid fuck - falling asleep that time with me on your lap cost you £300". Really the problem is that finding a replacement screen for it is difficult as it requires an entirely new lid and most of the spare ones out there are third party plastic (wtf) lids with 3rd party retina screens glued to the sold by dickheads on ebay. Swapping it out is easy enough, just time consuming. Plus I've got better things to spend £300 on like knackered old oscilloscopes.lol. I had a keyboard like that once on my X201. Someone actually gave me another laptop because they thought I couldn't afford to repair it. I just couldn't be bothered.Those XPS13's look nice. Next machine here will be a Thinkpad T470 though.

author: janoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2018, 11:05:22 pm
content: Quote from: cdev on January 30, 2018, 11:58:15 pmThen you are doing something wrong or you have some other software interfere with it (is some of your distribution-specific tools trying to be too smart?). The "disable" command will turn it off and it stays off on reboot, even if something else needs it. Avahi certainly doesn't re-enable itself.In that case you need to consult the documentation for your distro.

author: janoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2018, 11:25:54 pm
content: Quote from: paulca on January 31, 2018, 01:43:51 amWell, I am using Linux since around 1994 or so, having installed it from floppies downloaded over a 19k leased line at the Uni ... Also used SCO Unix (eww - even the 1994 Linux was user friendly compared to that) before and few other commercial Unix systems later on. So you don't have to explain me how it used to work. I have been there.On the other hand, nobody forces you to "upgrade" to more modern ways of doing things. I also used to run bare bones Slackware and Debian, built my own kernels, the works. Linux from scratch and Gentoo I have never bothered with because I didn't have that much time nor internet bandwidth on my hands. Never mind the "holier than thou" attitude of the Gentoo developers/users at the time. But if you prefer that, stay with it.But for me over the time the focus changed - the computer is a tool for work for me and I need it to work, not spend hours with compiling, configuring and tinkering with stuff. And that is when I started to appreciate things like the automation you dislike so much. It also helps when a meeting room or auditorium full of people doesn't need to wait for you while you are doing some magic incantation in the shell trying to get your laptop to work with the projector or whatever while the Windows and Mac users are twiddling their thumbs with a smug grin.I am also Mandrake/Mandriva/Mageia user, back from the start of that distribution - and never really had major issues. If some of the "automagic" didn't work, it was never too difficult to turn it off and e.g. mount disks by hand, configure network manually or fix messed up LILO/Grub setup e.g. after copying/moving disks. It still isn't and I still do it when required (e.g. for an external USB ethernet dongle I use for testing only, so normal Mageia network configurator wouldn't be able to set it up).Yes, it can be complex but is it really easier to remember how to configure 20 something pieces of various software needed just to get network running from scratch? To me your rant sounds more like "I have learned this 15 years ago and now this is different so I hate it only because it is different and my 15 years old skills don't work with it anymore", not because it doesn't work. Nobody questions having to keep skills up to date in other domains so what is so different here?

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2018, 12:38:25 am
content: Collect your MAC address which under ipv6 serves as a universal identifier for your hardware.Sort of an ultimate super cookie.

author: borjam
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 01, 2018, 07:04:15 am
content: Quote from: cdev on February 01, 2018, 12:38:25 amNo worries, that one was fixed long ago!Modern IPv6 implementations generate random IPv6 addresses that change every 24 hours or so. Those IPv6 addresses don't contain your MAC address anymore.https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4941Code:$ ifconfig en0en0: flags=8863<UP,BROADCAST,SMART,RUNNING,SIMPLEX,MULTICAST> mtu 1500ether c8:69:cd:XX:XX:XXinet6 fe80::XXX%en0 prefixlen 64 secured scopeid 0x6inet 172.16.8.47 netmask 0xfffff000 broadcast 172.16.15.255inet6 XXX::1010:c09:YYYY prefixlen 64 autoconf securedinet6 XXX::1010:e50d:a96f:654c:4066 prefixlen 64 deprecated autoconf temporaryinet6 XXX::1010:d128:45aa:15b8:a5dc prefixlen 64 deprecated autoconf temporaryinet6 XXX::1010:a58b:7364:5774:68dc prefixlen 64 deprecated autoconf temporaryinet6 XXX::1010:2836:9b5:5419:5f81 prefixlen 64 deprecated autoconf temporaryinet6 XXX::1010:5db6:ee6:73ee:face prefixlen 64 deprecated autoconf temporaryinet6 XXX::1010:4c44:9c33:7451:37da prefixlen 64 autoconf temporarynd6 options=201<PERFORMNUD,DAD>media: autoselectstatus: activeZaphod-2:~ borjam$Those temporary addresses are used for outgoing connections. So, no worries about the IPv6 address becoming the new cookie. RFC 3041was published in 2001, the newer RFC4941 in 2007.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2018, 07:53:43 pm
content: How do these informational RFCs fit in?https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7624

author: paulca
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2018, 10:13:18 pm
content: Quote from: janoc on January 31, 2018, 11:25:54 pmIt's probably a fair assessment. What annoys me is not what happens when it's working, it's when it's not or when you want to do something a certain way that it's not capable of doing or more likely you want to do something basic and manual, but it fights you and it's often hard to get it out of your way.Anyway. I took some of the points made to me in this thread to heart, so I have spun up a blank VM and will install the current flavour of Gentoo on it and try and set systemd up myself and see if I can't learn a thing or two about it. If I'm going to do systemd I want to get as close as I can to vanilla systemd without distro dickery.... it remains to be seen how far that can be achieved with Gentoo dickery in the way though.An analogy that popped into mind. If you wanted to learn basic vanilla AVR microcontrollers and someone gave you Arduino. You'd soon learn with frustration that it's not quite the same thing and none of the documentation for AVRs would make a lot of sense or at least would conflict frequently with Arduino documentation.