Learning electronics on a budget. - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / beginners

author: mjn2024
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2021, 06:36:41 pm
content: I am a freshman in high school who wants to learn electronics. The problem is there aren’t many places that higher high school students are. So I have little money to spend on electronics. That being said I do have some stuff, I have an auto-ranging multimeter, a soldering iron, I found an old analog oscilloscope in a dumpster, I also have various tools and a small set of components including an Arduino kit and led kit and a capacitor kit. I have gone through many Arduino tutorials and have enjoyed them but felt something was missing because I was just plugging in a sensor with a couple of wires. I am interested in building circuits without a microcontroller. Any suggestions on where I should start. I do have a birthday coming up.

author: Grandchuck
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2021, 06:50:14 pm
content: You will need a power supply so you could build your own. There are kits available at low cost. Also, a signal generator would be good. Again, you can build one. Ham radio is a way to meet folks interested in electronics. Any clubs in your area?Whatever you decide, proceed with safety in mind. Learn about shock, high voltage, chemical fumes and so on.

author: captainscarlet
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2021, 07:22:06 pm
content: Hi,Honestly, you don't need much to get started.A cheap multimeter, a cheap power supply, a breadboard, and some through-hole components will get you sorted.The basic Arduino tutorials are VERY basic, but the learning curve gets a bit steeper as you dig in.Honestly, I'd have a look at websites like Instructables and Hackaday, and see if any project catches your eye.It's one thing to go on a spending spree and buy tools you "think" you need, but it's better to buy tools specific to a project or problem you have.My advice is to start small. Small, simple projects to build a foundation of knowledge.My biggest mistake was to take on massive projects (radio controlled lawnmower) and I hadn't a clue, got disheartened and ended up with my first unfinished project.I live by the sea, so I used an arduino and a real-time clock to build a tide clock on a breadboard.Then I added LEDs to show the tide rising and falling.Then I built a simple PCB.Then a more complex PCB with images etched into it.Then optimised the code to lower the power requirements.Then a frame.Now it's up on the wall.

author: andy3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2021, 08:49:22 pm
content: Not knowing your level of knowledge, if you are a total beginner, it will be rewarding to take a class on analog and digital fundamentals at a local community college. That should not cost much.

author: Kleinstein
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2021, 09:04:36 pm
content: Building your own power supply is a tempting frist project and historically this was often a way to start. However this often involves mains voltage and with some of the cheap Chinese parts it does not really save money, at least not much.A breadboard is definitely an easy way to get a feeling for real world electronic circuits.For the more theoretical side one could consider a simulation program. There are free ones, like LTspice and TIna. The usage is not that easy, but it can help to understand circuits and look at details that are hard to see real world.A simple generator (e.g. square and triangle with 2 OPs) could be simple first project: test on the breadboard and than maybe build on proto board or even dead bug soldering.For some signals it is also possible to use the Arduino as a signal source.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2021, 09:48:38 pm
content: Any of the books by Forrest Mims are approachable. I can't convince myself that "Art of Electronics" and "Learning the Art of Electronics" are anywhere near as approachable.https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000NXEHYOTake a 2N2222 (or 2N3904) NPN transistor and build a class A amplifier. Then measure things like Ib (base current), Ic (collector current) and Vce (voltage drop between collector and emitter). Maybe start with some voltage (perhaps 3V from a battery pack), a 10k base resistor and a 1k collector resistor. Then change the values, See what happens when the base resistor is too high (like 1Mohm). Don't drop the emitter resistor value without understanding how much power will be dissipated.Watch w2aew's video on transistor amplifiersWhile you're at it, look at Dave's 'Fundamentals' videos and w2aew has more as well.There is a sticky to reference materials at the top of this forum.By all means, play with the 555 timer and build yourself a signal generator. It probably won't be elegant but you will always need some source for signals.In particular, you need a reasonably slow square wave to study the rise and fall of an RC circuit. I like 10k and 0.1 ufd but this requires a scope. You can slow it down a lot by using 100k or 100 ufd.Look back through Dave's earlier works on DC FundamentalsWant a more elegant square wave generator? Use the tone() function on an Arduino. You will get a symmetric square wave. You will find this somewhat more complicated with the 555 just by the nature of the charge resistance and discharge resistance. Asymmetric signals are not nearly as useful.Get very familiar with exon your scientific calculator.

author: johnboxall
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 15, 2021, 10:30:02 pm
content: Quote from: mjn2024 on July 15, 2021, 06:36:41 pmHappy Birthday!All the free information you need to get started is available from:http://www.talkingelectronics.com/te_interactive_index.html99.9% you can just print to pdf and keep for your own files. If you scroll down there's a yellow box with a list of magazines, many thousands of people just like yourself used them to get started.

author: Old Printer
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2021, 01:28:42 am
content: I am also teaching myself electronics, mostly from online sources and fellow forum members here. Become a regular here and you will be amazed at how helpful the members can be. Lots of free publications are available. I really had my sights set on the two Art of Electronics books, but the cost is very high. After some searching and tips from forum members I found the price of the previous versions (silver covers) was extremely affordable through used book outlets. I got both the text and the lab manual for $16 each.. The books were in excellent shape, and for what I need to learn, being 15 years old doesn’t matter. The basics are still the same. Enjoy your journey.

author: Canis Dirus Leidy
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2021, 03:54:07 am
content: Quote from: mjn2024 on July 15, 2021, 06:36:41 pmHow much exactly? In the sense of whether a Chinese $100 PSU/ signal generator will fit into the budget, or is it too expensive even as a birthday gift.Quote from: mjn2024 on July 15, 2021, 06:36:41 pmWell… De facto you already have pretty decent starter kit. So, my suggestions:Bunch of jelly-bean parts likeКТ3102/КТ3107BC548/BC558 (or 2N3904/2N3906) transistors, general purpose op-amps (like LM358 or TL07x) andYe Goode Olde TimereNE555 timer IC. A search on the forum will give more complete lists,like this.Some more powerful BJTs like BD137/BD138 and load for them, like toy DC motor or loudspeaker.Another multimeter (not mandatory, but the possibility to simultaneously measure current and voltage will be useful)."Transistor tester"(Chinese clones are sold on aliexpress for $6 - $25, depending on the specific clone model, plus there is a bunch ofcommunity mods and firmware) - it will be useful when dealing with old (or suspicious) parts in old devices.If you can salvage old vacuum tube TV (or just some device with powerful mains transformer), then you already have half of variable PSU for your workbench.Just add some rectifier and voltage regulator.Function generator.The simplest low-frequency version can be made on a single LM324 chip, and articles like "Simple functional generator" were regularly published in old amateur radio magazines:

author: mjn2024
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2021, 12:04:31 pm
content: I do have some money saved up and my parents are usually very good with birthdays (for example last year I asked for an ender 3 3d printer or a jetson nano with a case wifi dongle, camera, and sd card and said they could decide and I got both). so with my birthday and saved up money my budget is probably somewhere between $300-$400.

author: Old Printer
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2021, 03:38:12 pm
content: The simple fact that it is no longer legal to put old electronics gear in the trash can be a boon to us. There is a lot of gear waiting around for recycling day, and that slows it down long enough for us to have a look. Particularly gear from the 70’s and 80’s that was made with leaded components before the days of surface mount. An old 5mhz analog training oscilloscope kept me occupied for hours salvaging components.Find an online source for basic electronics training and start at Ohm’s and Kirchhoff’s laws and build some circuits. If you feel the need to add a piece of equipment, another DMM is a good place to start. The little Aneng 8008/8009 meters for $28 are hard to beat.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2021, 03:47:02 pm
content: Quote from: rstofer on July 15, 2021, 09:48:38 pmThe 1st edition Art of Electronics and the associated Laboratory manual, both available in PDF form with a Google or two, are far more approachable in this respect. I cut my teeth on them.To learn properly, min test gear is probably:1. bipolar or dual power supply or two power supplies2. Any old analogue scope that's 20MHz or better with some chinese probes3. Function generator - any old 2MHz thing will do.4. Couple of rock bottom cheap DMMs5. parts. They are soooo cheap and readily available now. Hitwww.taydaelectronics.com6. soldering iron - anything will do but look out for a better one as you go along.7. Any old scientific calculator.If you wait it out (might take a while) you can get this stuff for next to nothing from ebay, craigslist and hamfests.The best education descending order of usefulness is as follows:1. A pile of broken old stuff that needs fixing, preferably test gear.2. Here.3. Youtube (W2AEW is a good place)4. Art of electronics (just get a PDF of it)5. The Internet as a whole.6. Other books.Remember if you fix something, you can sell it and buy better kit. This funds the hobby. I've run my entire electronics budget separate to my main income buying and selling test gear. This is a good thing to do if you have no income already.Don't skip the maths / algebra. It's a good skill to have and opens a whole world past electronic construction and doing projects rote and enabling you to design things from scratch to suit your own needs. You can pick up any gaps in knowledge or start afresh using Khan Academy (free online).Forest Mimms books are awful and should only be used as kindling. I wish people would stop recommending them.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2021, 04:19:02 pm
content: One of the problems with these 'I want to learn electronics' threads is the definition of 'learn'. The second problem is the definition of 'electronics' or, more properly, the scope of 'learn electronics'.Electronics, at an EE level, is a math problem. Tons and tons of math. Most people don't aspire to actually become EEs (and I wouldn't recommend it based on industry job growth). So, maybe we constrain the conversation to hobby level.At the hobby level, applications of electronics is more important than the theory. I don't need to understand the physics of a transistor in order to apply it. The physics is 'nice to know', not necessarily 'need to know'.There is a lot of grey-beard grumbling about Arduino taking over the electronics conversations. Truth is, anybody with an Arduino can build far more sophisticated projects than we ever could with transistors. Or even using logic chips. I remember when a dual flop fit on a 4"x4" PCB. Now I can buy an FPGA with millions of flops that is about the size of a postage stamp. And it's at least 1000 times faster!Were it me (and it usually is), I would play in the 'embedded' world where I write code to make hardware do something useful. Those Arduino Starter Kits are very useful in presenting building blocks for bigger projects. There is an enormous amount of 'electronics' in a simple Arduino Robot Kit.https://www.amazon.com/ELEGOO-Tracking-Ultrasonic-Intelligent-Educational/dp/B07KPZ8RSZAll those 'sensor' projects come together to make a much larger project. Get a white melamine sheet from Lowe's or Home Depot and tape down a dog-bone pattern using Scotch 33 electrical tape (also Home Depot or Lowe's) for a line tracking project. There's a huge number of things that need to work to get that toy robot to follow the line. There's a lot of 'learn' in a project like this.If you get to the point where you truly understand all of the code being presented, you are well on your way to embedded programming. BTW, all of the code is given.I'm not convinced that the traditional 'build a power supply' is the best first step. Many projects will work from a battery pack and most microcontroller projects run from the USB port. There are even USB power supplies (5V & 3.3V) for breadboards:https://www.amazon.com/RLECS-2-Pack-Breadboard-Battery-Arduino/dp/B07XSKYNN2This gadget provides quite a bit of 5V and 3.3V for sensors. If I were powering it from the USB port, I would want to feed it from a powered USB hub, not my high dollar laptop. 9V batteries don't last very long...I got along with battery packs and wall warts along with a fixed 5V power supply for many years. A couple of years ago, I finally bought a Rigol DP832 because I could. I had certainly gotten along for decades without one.\Need +-15V for older op amp projects? Here's one:https://www.jameco.com/z/PD-2515-MEAN-WELL-Power-Supply-Dual-Output-Open-Frame-15V-1A-Negative-15V-1A-24W_2100857.htmlDon't forget to order the connectors separately...There are a lot of places to play in the electronics sandbox. I prefer digital and embedded, others prefer RF or audio. There's room for everybody.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2021, 04:39:47 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on July 16, 2021, 03:47:02 pmKhan Academy also has an EE program separate from the math program. In the 'for pay' world, I highly recommend CalcWorkshop.com. The sequencing of videos tends to closely track what would actually be taught in the various courses. Highly recommended!https://calcworkshop.com/courses/Desmos.com for plotting equationsSymbolab.com for solving stuff.MATLAB for just about everything. Free to students, $149 for Home license plus option packs at $50 each (I believe). Annual maintenance cost is nearly 50% so this is expensive. Yup! I happily pay for it every year...If any STEM degree is on the horizon, learn MATLAB now! "Eat-Sleep-MATLAB-Repeat" There's a T shirt...GNU Octave is VERY similar to MATLAB in terms of number crunching but it lacks all of the other stuff that MATLAB can do. The thing about Octave is that it's free!Earlier this morning I was playing with a MATLAB Enigma machine application - truly amazing stuff!https://www.mathworks.com/videos/the-enigma-machine-and-matlab-107967.html3Blue1Brown videos are also highly recommended. For entertainment, numberphile and computerphile videos are great.

author: mjn2024
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2021, 04:43:08 pm
content: Just to make sure I am looking at the right thing is this the book you guys are talking about when you say the art of electronics.http://www.uvm.edu/~gpetrucc/courses/Chem219/Lectures/%5BTom_Hayes%3B_Paul_Horowitz%5D_Learning_the_Art_of_Ele(z-lib.org).pdf

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2021, 05:02:00 pm
content: Yes!"Learning The Art Of Electronics" is the matching lab manual.There is also a matching "The Art of Electronics: The X Chapters"https://www.amazon.com/Art-Electronics-x-Chapters/dp/1108499945This volume deals with various updates and errata.Scroll down and you can get all 3 volumes for about $200In a perfect world, all 3 volumes would be the same version. I believe they are all available for the 3rd edition.You might find a better price at Alibris.com. Again, try for the 3rd editionOf course, for a start, the online PDF is entirely adequate.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2021, 06:36:49 pm
content: While we're on the subject, look into LTspice. It is a circuit simulator and it can deal with some very complex circuits. Look around for tutorials and other examples.The video is pretty good! There are many...

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2021, 06:47:09 pm
content: You've already got more tools than I had back when I learned, oscilloscopes weren't something you'd ever find in a dumpster back then and they cost way more than I could afford as a teen.You can learn a lot with what you have already, something I did a lot of was finding broken electronics and either repairing it or if it wasn't worth repairing I would strip it for parts and use the stuff I salvaged to build other things. For a lot of learning you don't need any parts or tools at all, you can learn from books and use a simulator. I do think it's a lot more fun to actually build something but it doesn't have to be anything complicated. I built a lot of power supplies, light flashers and noise making circuits back then.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2021, 07:17:40 pm
content: Save up your money, you're very close to being able to buy a perfectly adequate NEW scope like the Rigol DS1054Z (which I have) $349https://www.amazon.com/Rigol-DS1054Z-Digital-Oscilloscopes-Bandwidth/dp/B012938E76This scope can be unlocked to 100 MHz (details over in Test Equipment) and that process will ultimately involvehttp://gotroot.ca/rigol/riglol/The right input string used to be 'DSER' but that may have changed since most of the options are now unlocked at the factory. I don't know whether the answer is 'DSER' to unlock everything or 'DSEA' to just unlock the 100 MHz. Don't worry that 'DSER' doesn't show up in the list, it IS the right answer when everything was locked at the factory.There are also some pretty compelling Siglent models at the entry level. I prefer 4 channels but they aren't strictly necessary. Two channel scopes got us to the Moon and back.For $279, the Rigol DS1102Z-E 2 channel scope is pretty compelling. 100 MHz right out of the box.There are a number of alternatives with prices spread all over the map and the topic of 'which scope' comes up all the time. Search this forum and the Test Equipment forum.I would NEVER recommend a new user buy an old analog scope. First because it is unlikely to work properly or for very long but the real reason is there is simply no comparison in capability. The modern DSO is what all analog scopes wish they could be.Except bandwidth! I can buy a lot of used analog bandwidth for very little money. I paid about $200 for my Tektronix 485 350MHz scope and, while it is a great scope and covered my needs for a number of years, the only thing it features is bandwidth. Every other capability favors the DSO. Single Shot mode may not make any sense right now but it is one of the things an analog scope can't do and it seems we can't live without in the age of DSOs. Measurements is another feature that favors the DSO. Some analog scopes do a reasonable job but, in the end, the DSO is better. Not many analog scopes can do a Fast Fourier Transform or a Bode' Plot like some DSOs can do.This is a completely different topic and you can search for threads.Here's an epic thread about selecting an entry level scope. It's not until Reply 150 or so that Charlotte spends money. Then things get interesting when she wants to test virtually every feature of the scope. Interesting reading!https://www.eevblog.com/forum/beginners/what-an-oscilloscope-recommended-for-a-woman-passionate-about-electronics/There's some good learning in that thread!

author: mjn2024
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2021, 08:32:35 pm
content: A lot of people are saying repairing and just looking at old electronics is a good way to start. There is a recycling center near my house the last time I went there I went in a wharehouse that had many boxes containing all types of old broken and working electronics(this is where I found my oscilloscope) this would probably be my main source of old electronics to repair because I live in a small neighborhood right next to the high way so I can not easily walk to other places. SO next time I go there what should I look for(for example computers would not be all that useful because they are 99% SMD) they have lots of stuff though; Flatt screen TVs, non flat-screen TVs, monitors, appliances laptops ...

author: Old Printer
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2021, 09:10:51 pm
content: Quote from: mjn2024 on July 16, 2021, 08:32:35 pmAudio equipment, stereos, amplifiers, record players, tape recorders are a few. The earlier video games are likely to contain discrete logic chips. Any sort of electronic test and measurement gear. I would probably avoid tube gear for now, that is its own rabbit hole and you should be better versed in electronics before messing with the high voltages found in them. It would be a good idea to read up on electrolytic capacitors if you are going to be digging around in old electronics, they can hold pretty fair electrical charges long after being unplugged. They are easy enough to drain and make safe once you know how to recognize and work with them.

author: BrokenYugo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2021, 10:09:31 pm
content: What sort of dumpster scope are we talking about here? If it works (ask if you don't know how to test) it's probably good enough for now. I'd prioritize a second multimeter, sometimes you'll even want three.I'll second watching the W2AEW transistor videos, or all of the more tutorial type ones if RF interests you, like #55 is the explanation of resonance that really clicked with me.Desktop PC motherboards aren't very good for parts salvage, but the power supplies absolutely are.

author: Doctorandus_P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2021, 10:36:25 pm
content: If your budget is very tight and you want to build stuff without a microcontroller, then building your own power supply is a very good option.The "Hiland" PCB costs around EUR10 from Ali, and with a few limitations and gotcha's which need some modifiction (there is a long thread on this forum about this) ic can be a quite usable power supply.You should also look at stuff thrown out. Old laptop power supply bricks can be a abase for a power supply.You can also build a function generator with a few opamps.But these day's you won't do much with electronics without interfacing to a microcontroller.I never liked "arduino". I know it is popular, but it teaches too many bad habits. "arduino" is just a start though. There is much, much more on microcontroller world.A popular saying is that you can never have enough multimeters. I'd say buy one decent multimeter (or start with an el-cheapo), and then build the rest yourself. The meters you build yourself do not have to be full blown multimeters.A few simple meters that can only measure a voltage, or a current is quite useful, and you can use them to continuously measure some signal in the circuit you're building, and it frees up your multimeter for any ad-hoc measurements.About the cheapest ADC with a decent number of bits is the HX711. And with some proper signal conditioning you can measure voltages and currents with it. It does need a microcontroller to do something with it, and you have to decide on a display. There are much better ADC's. with an ADS1220 for example you can already build quite decent measurement circuits.Scullcom has a whole series of measurement equipment you can build yourself.

author: mjn2024
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2021, 10:49:25 pm
content: It is a tektronix 2445A 150mhz 4 channelsI hooked one of the probes up to the built in calibrator and got the expected result

author: Doctorandus_P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2021, 10:59:52 pm
content: Only 150 milli Hz?https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_System_of_UnitsYou can test the front ends of your oscilloscope by plugging two different channels to the same signal. If the signals match on the oscilloscope screen, then they're probably both all right.

author: WattsThat
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2021, 11:13:29 pm
content: QuoteSweet! Vintage Tektronix, that’s a very lucky find and a piece of first class gear there. You’re off to a good start. Now for some power supplies.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2021, 01:25:12 am
content: Quote from: mjn2024 on July 16, 2021, 10:49:25 pmThat's a real nice scope, take good care of it. Looks like you've got the brightness cranked up pretty high, maybe it's just the photo but otherwise dial it down a little so you don't wear out the tube, lifespan drops dramatically at high beam current. Also be sure to watch Dave's video on how to NOT blow up your oscilloscope, those old Tek's contain a lot of irreplaceable custom parts.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2021, 05:05:17 pm
content: That is a great scope. It isn't a DSO but who cares? It will serve for a long time.Since you already know Arduino stuff, play with the tone() function to get square waves of various frequencies. See if both channels look the same. Remember, the tone() function only goes up to about 65 kHz on an Arduino Uno.Here's an 80 Hz example on pin 2Code:void setup() {tone(2,80); // the only line of code I wrote}void loop() {}I used the output to drive an RC circuit of 10k and 0.1 ufd so I could see the charge and discharge curves on a scope. Just probe the junction between the resistor and capacitor to ground.The curves will look like these:https://www.electronics-tutorials.ws/rc/rc_1.htmlhttps://www.electronics-tutorials.ws/rc/rc_2.htmlDave did a video:BTW, I attached an image of the charge/discharge curves and the project above (Arduino 80 Hz square wave into 10k and 0.1 ufd) should give similar results on a scope. I used an Analog Discovery 2 for the image. Doesn't matter, it's the curves that matter.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2021, 05:20:41 pm
content: There are other waveforms you can generate with an Arduino. Here is a more general purpose project on an Arduino Due that generates 4 waveforms: sine, triangular, sawtooth, or squarehttps://www.arduino.cc/en/Tutorial/DueSimpleWaveformGeneratorNo, they aren't the most elegant of waveforms but they are something to play with for the cost of a Due - about $35 at Amazonhttps://www.amazon.com/Arduino-org-A000062-Arduino-Due/dp/B00A6C3JN2It's a good place to start and will give you a lot of experience with your scope.

author: Faringdon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2021, 07:49:59 pm
content: Here is a free power supply course for you, it also introduces you to the excellent LTspice free circuit simulator.......this is an ace way to learn....i mean, hardware on the bench is best, but it just takes too long to build all the time.https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B7aRNbu3Fes4TU92Mkw3YlA3ams/view?usp=sharing

author: Wallace Gasiewicz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2021, 11:17:10 pm
content: For a "bench" Power Supply, I would see if there are any Hamfests in your area. You can pick up an old but good 0-30Volt supply for maybe $10. Triple supply PS would be more. I sold a nice triple supply for $40. Get a heavy one that has a transformer. The cheap new PS are switching and the spurious frequencies they generate can be maddening (the cheaper the PS the more the spurs.) Also the old "linear" ones are cheaper. You do not really need one that is "accurate" or has a digital readout, you can check the output with your meter.Linear PS are easy to fix also, switching PS are tricky to repair.Your scope is just a wonderful good old scope and you will probably keep it even if you get a fancy new one. Besides, it is cool. Make sure you probes match the input capacitance for best results. This is not absolutely necessary but without the proper probes, the waveform and amplitude will be wrong. Almost always use a 10X probe. I have much older scopes that I use and still work well, even though I am using a 500 MHz digital Agilent at the present. Remember, they put a man on the moon using analog scopes..As has been said, a cheap transistor tester is a great idea. Most of these things will also measure capacitors and resistors., so go for it. I bought one for $20 new. I think you can get a better one for less.As far as recycled stuff goes, maybe find an old CB radio and look at the signals with your scope. You can get the schematics online. You can learn about crystals and oscillators and IF mixers by just understanding one radio. Besides, if you are into it, if you get good enough, you can make a few bucks fixing these things and have more money to spend on fancy equipment. It will be fun. Check voltages with DC scope function also. If there is a CB shop around and old working CB (nobody wants the 20 channel ones anymore) can be $20. A broken one could be free.Maybe I am wrong but any good frequency generator is going to be expensive, few hundred bucks. unless you just want a low freq one. Again, look for one at a Hamfest. You can pick up an old analog one for almost free however and use you scope to make sure it is on freq. Or get a freq counter.To test a radio, it is nice to have a freq generator that has audio modulation, so you can hear the tone in the speaker.I think your scope has a built in freq counter, but I think the scopes I have seen are not that accurate (most ore OK, not great) as far as their freq counter. Sometimes you can add an external 10MHz reference in the back of the scope.Remember to have fun, consider getting a HAM license.I would not look at generators that make square waves or other functions till I knew what I was going to be experimenting with. Unless you can get one cheap. IMHO these things are hard to repair.OH and you will need a decent soldering iron... lots to choose from.. Important to get one that does not require expensive tips.

author: Canis Dirus Leidy
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2021, 03:20:04 am
content: Quote from: Wallace Gasiewicz on July 17, 2021, 11:17:10 pmNot always.™ Korad KA3005D is a good enough (Except connection cables. The Chinese cutting corners with the thickness of the copper wire and do not bother with reliable connections of banana plugs.) workhorse with iron transformer andAmazon sells it for less than $100(including free shipping in the USA).Quote from: Wallace Gasiewicz on July 17, 2021, 11:17:10 pmWell, there are bunch of different Chinese DDS-based generators in $150-$100 range (UTG962,FY6600, JDS6600, etc.), which can, formally, give you up to 60MHz offeelssinewave. Unfortunately, such price is too often achieved by total savings on the analog part (up to lack of EMI filtering in mains input and inadequate cooling) .UPD: Oh, and there is a MAG-450 and other clones ofinfamous TSG-17. $150 (with shipping, and without careful processing by a file. Because it's priceless!) for dat feel of design from an amateur radio magazine of the seventies.Quote from: Wallace Gasiewicz on July 17, 2021, 11:17:10 pmIf we talk about budget solutions, then these are, IMHO, a Chinese controller from Quicko or KSGER (approx. $50-40 oreven $25if you already have 24V PSU) and genuine T12 tips from Hakko. And, for some QoL,"third hand"with flexible (I have version with horizontal metal rod. It's can hold a small PCB, but poorly suited for wires holding: alligator clips too far apart) clamps holders.P.S. Oh, and another not so often needed, but useful tool: reference voltage source. There aremultiple AD584 moduleson Aliexpress (with $6-15 price) or you canmade you own, from inexpensive parts.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2021, 07:35:54 am
content: I’d stay away from the Chinese soldering stations if you’re a new user. Two big problems:1. They blow up. I have first hand experience of this.2. If there is a problem you need another soldering iron to fix it which is a royal pain in the butt.

author: wizard69
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2021, 11:45:55 pm
content: Quote from: mjn2024 on July 15, 2021, 06:36:41 pmI actually started a bit earlier but this does give you the advantage that you should be able to handle the math far easier.QuoteTools and instruments you can build or buy as you go! In my mind it is far better to buy stuff that will last, that means quality tools and instruments. The good thing here is that he basics remain useful to you even if your focus on electronics varies a bit over the next few years. I still have dozens of tools purchased in my teens and twenties, and I'm 60 now. The trick is to buy what you need only when you need it when getting started. This might change a bit down the road as some things are better bought by sets for example a wrench set but avoid these big expenses first off.QuoteA lot of the online stuff is terrible for learning, in fact I'd call it crap. They basically have you paste together a circuit without telling you what is going on.QuoteWell don't throw out those Arduino's, in fact you might want more. The reason I say that is that they can be programmed to do a number of things for you. Effectively a substitute for a variety of instruments. This assumes of course that you have a computer to program then with and have already developed some skill there. I had zero contact with computers growing up, they where not cheap enough to even consider until I was well out of high school so this si a different perspective to the process of learning electronics.The second issue here is that there is always the question (already mentioned by others) of what you mean by learning electronics. I strongly suggest going through the math for simple circuits and calculations as this can give you insight in how things work. I'd avoid the higher end circuit analyses until you have a stronger math background. In any event I did not see mention the Navies NEETS program that is available on line for download (free is the way to go here). This is an excellent starting point and is aimed largely at training technicians, not so much engineers. At this point I would not suggest trying to approach electronics from the full on engineering standpoint. Worry about engineering in college. This doesn't mean you don't analyze simple DC circuits and do a bit of math though.There are all sorts of arguments about building hardware, instruments if you will, and the value in doing so. Personally I think there is a lot of value in doing so especially in doing a simple power supply. It does require developing a wider variety of skills to roll your own. This includes soldering, salvaging, mechanical work on a housing, mains practices, component selection. datasheet reading and so forth. I'm not talking a complicated supply here either, a simple 3 terminal regulator outputting a fix voltage has a lot of value when it comes to learning. The other thing here is that power supplies are a high failure point in most electronics and as such understanding them is important in my mind. I work in automation and I have to say that power supplies probably represent 85% of the electronics I replace beyond video displays. So no matter where your interests go understanding power supplies will be helpful down the road. It wouldn't hurt to do a more advanced power supply kit if you can find a kit with a good explanation of how it works, but you don't need it to get started. Finally to start i didn't have any power supply beyond a few batteries so I don't see a good reason to buy a supply at this point.There is huge value in building audio level circuits when starting out. For one you don''t NEED a lot of high end test gear. You likely already have more than one signal generator (cell, MP3 player, stereo & etc.), you can get by with low end multi meters, and if you do use a scope almost anything will work to get started. Plus there are a lot of people into this, like xraytony on YouTube, where you can get a lot of information on discreet and integrated amplifier solutions. If you really get into this you can do your own chassis builds and put a lot of creativity into a preamp and amp. With audio you can explore a variety of skills to produce a really nice bit of kit. Also this can be relatively cheap is you can pick up a bunch of old hardware to salvage from (sounds like you have the resource for that). Finally designing can be somewhat relaxed compared to high speed electronics.In the same way repairing audio equipment can also be a good skill builder. Diagnostic skills are a bit different than design skills. AS others have mentioned, older equipment is sometimes a better starting point as the bigger through hole parts are easy to deal with. You do need to be aware of safety when it comes to working on higher voltage equipment. It is really hard to hurt your self on 5 VDC but a reasonably powerful amp will have lethal voltages in it. You need to judge if you are ready to work on such equipment.As for the birthday well that is up to you. However if there was two things that I would have loved to have first getting started, these would be it:A decent soldering station. My first soldering "tool" was a cheap radio shack iron, and it suck from day oneA good DMM! If you can convince the parents I'd look for a mid-range model well under $200. There are nice ones on the EEVBlog store if you want to support this sight. Otherwise I would look on the various distributor sites. There are many options!Now I know you have a multimeter of some sort, so it might already be a good one but here is another reality, having two meters can be very useful. Do remember the Arduino though as that can be setup fairly easy to read voltages in a low voltage circuit. Now given that, your meter for repair work should be CAT rated assuring you that it is safe to use on high energy circuits. Safety on high voltage / power systems, requires good technique and the right equipment.You will need other things like a breadboards and so forth. However what you will need depends a lot upon what you will be pursuing.The problem with hiring high school students it that many industries are required by law to hire 18 and over. Also temp work isn't always available at many corporations. There are some jobs that (this varies by state) you can consider but they may not be extremely attractive to you at the moment. Farm jobs, certain jobs at groceries, possibly lawn maintenance, fast food and others may employ those under 18.In any event try to find something, even if that is shoveling horse shit on a farm, for a couple of hours a night or maybe a week. The reality is you will likely be spending money on an off for a while so pocket change can make this go far easier. That money will likely go for tools, parts and texts. More importantly it will impress your parents to demonstrate that you have enough interest in something to go out and work for cash to support it. Beyond that building up a cash reserve for college is extremely smart. You could also try to pick up work mowing lawns and stuff like that, however you still have to deal with people being willing to hire a minor and if it is even legal in your state. Liability sucks and many just don't want to get screwed over hiring a part time lawn care person. In any event you probably have far more choices here than I ever had, I was so far out in the country I would have had to go dozens of miles to find a part time job. Learn to network.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 19, 2021, 01:31:11 am
content: In some communities, there are Makers clubs. A bunch of guys get together, form a club and contribute to shared test equipment and tools.https://www.meetup.com/topics/makers/I don't know any more than what I just got in a Google search. Never been a member...

author: Wallace Gasiewicz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 19, 2021, 11:49:39 am
content: OH, I forgot...To impress your parents with your safety mindedness, get a nice little fire extinguisher and put it next to you workstation, or near the door to the room.HA!!! I do keep one close to my work, never had to use it so far....Lots of useful comments so far.Maker's Clubs can be nice, depends what the particular club is mostly doing. You can tour the facility prior to joining, which does cost money.I have also had some bad experience with nice looking chinese soldering iron sets, one big unit that is used at the shop required several handpiece replacements and eventually the transformer blew. I repaired all of this but the thing was not worth it.Hey Canis, I used EICO and RCA signal generators that make that YSG 17 look like state of the art.(not necessarily recommending either one)

author: wizard69
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 21, 2021, 11:14:17 pm
content: Makers clubs are something that didn't exist when I was growing up so I can't comment much on them. Lucky for me my father had a garage. Not so lucky was him getting sick when I was young. In any event one can learn a lot in a garage if you are willing to dive in. That might mean a bicycle repair one day and building a really half assed wind turbine the next day.There is a lot to be said for exposing yourself to trying to fix just about anything. It really opens your eye to how things work. Like wise the process of imagining something and then building it can be very good developmental experience. It is often shocking to me how many adults have trouble with developing a solution to a problem that should be easy to solve. I have to imagine they took nothing apart as a child, or never took some wood and built something useful out of it.In any event I ramble, what I'm trying to get at is that a makers club sounds like a good substitute for not having a garage. This especially if the club offers access to stuff not found in most garages and the mentoring to go with it. It isn't just electronics either, knowing how to properly use a drill press or Bridgeport Mill can benefit somebody deeply involved in electronics. Apparently this is stuff not taught in high or middle schools anymore.I'm not sure what the original poster has access to, but if something like a makers club exist in his area, it can be worthwhile to join up even if electronics is not at their core. The more things you get exposed to the better off you are. In the work world even if you are handing something off to a machinist it is good to be able to communicate in his language to get done what you need to get done. In any event that club cost can be a real barrier, especially if that means not being able to buy the basics you need at home.Quote from: Wallace Gasiewicz on July 19, 2021, 11:49:39 amWow that is an especially bad case! I mentioned a good soldering station due to years of suffering without one. Those Radio Shack special soldering irons where something special, they really forced you to develop the ability to compensate.For the rest of the tool box earn a bit buy a bit. Now that I think of it an empty tool box may be a good item to put on his birthday list. A decent one costs money but on the other hand you quickly need storage. I'd seriously consider some of the Kennedy Machinist Chests. These are good for the smaller tools commonly employed in electronics. Bit expensive but will last a lifetime.Quote

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2021, 12:09:05 am
content: Quote from: wizard69 on July 21, 2021, 11:14:17 pmI was around 20 by the time I finally purchased a used Edsyn Loner soldering station which I still have and use. Prior to that I got by with Radio Shack firesticks, soldering stations were very expensive when I was starting out as a kid and I didn't have a lot of money so that's what I could afford. Perhaps dealing with those is part of the reason soldering comes so easily to me now, a proper temperature controlled iron with a good tip made a huge difference.

author: Wallace Gasiewicz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2021, 01:36:14 pm
content: The solder station that was always breaking was used in a shop where it was on 12 hrs a day. Sometimes left on at night.So "your mileage may vary"We have used very old. more expensive soldering stations with no such failures however. I think these might be classified as "Industrial"This is a small radio repair shop and we get "donations" of old, sometimes useful stuff including good old irons. Even boxes of brand new resistors, caps, IC Chips etc...If you can find a shop like this (CB and Ham radio repair) near you they may have "old junk" like am old brand name soldering iron that might be very inexpensive to you and work just fine for the time being.I think a temp control knob is almost necessary but the digital display is not mandatory.I personally use a PACE station with a solder vacuum, it does not have temp sensing but the control knobs area adequate for maintaining the temp of the tools. Needs a little experimenting to get the right temp for a particular solder.I don't think you need to go this far with a soldering station yet, but it does make a statement of how hobbyists do gravitate to better solder stations.It is not necessary to suffer through the "Crap" soldering equipment many of us old timers remember.Unfortunately if you pursue this as a hobby you will have to suffer through mathematics and radio frequency theory and digital stuff though

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2021, 02:44:37 pm
content: I think I'll drive this topic off the rails... Assuming you are headed to EE in college...Since you are a freshman in high school (finished with 9th grade or just starting, come fall?) you should make every effort to get as many higher level math classes as you can. It isn't necessary that you complete Calculus I and Calculus II in high school but it is necessary that you have the equivalent of Pre-Calculus.Here's a description of Precalculus:https://www.khanacademy.org/math/precalculusThis list is what the college admissions people expect you to know before you sign up for Calculus I and Calc I is a first semester course. If you don't have it coming out of high school, they will add a year to your curriculum while you catch up. Our community college actually has an entrance exam to identify those who need remedial help before signing up for Calculus I. There is virtually no chance of passing Calc I without a deep understanding of Precalc.Pay very close attention to the section on Trig Identities. It's amazing how often those come up!If you intend to pursue electronics beyond the 'cut and paste' hobby level, you will need math. A whole bunch of math. Every semester for the entire 5 year college program will have a math class or a theory class which is a math class with a fancy name. "Feedback Systems" sounds like a cool class, right? Well, it's Laplace Transforms (a less fancy math title) on steroids. "Field Theory"? That's Maxwell's Equations - a topic where many fear to tread. Every semester has a math course! Probably because engineering IS math!Try to maximize the amount of math you take in high school.OK, now we can put this topic back on the rails!

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2021, 03:04:03 pm
content: As to soldering irons, I got by with the Weller WP35 for many years. It's nothing fancy but I always managed to get things soldered.https://www.amazon.com/Weller-WP35-35-Watt-Professional-Soldering/dp/B000B5YIYSI moved up to a Hakko 936 but it is obsolete. Today, I would probably buy the Hakko FX-888Dhttps://www.amazon.com/FX-888D-Hakko-FX888D-29BY-Soldering-Cleaning/dp/B00YCKGG8Y

author: Guy Shemesh
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2021, 03:23:06 pm
content: My 2 cents on learning electronics for beginners:- It's not about the gear, its about doing stuff with your hands. The gear will follow and you will gather it over the years.- Don't try to go to junkyards, and I wouldn't also recommend disassembling old stuff. Of course, it gives something but not much.- Find your passion, simple projects are the best, find some guide on how to build it and try to follow. Try to understand and learn as you go, but relax if something is not clear. Don't hang on it.- The internet is your friend but don't spend days just reading/watching. Do it to answer specific questions as you build your electronic project.- Regarding the Art of electronics, I've also been given this advice when I started and I own a hardcover book which I bought early on. I can't say I'd recommend it although its a good book, it might be long / difficult for beginners - so if you feel you like reading it and it's not becoming tedious - great. Otherwise, just save it for later.- I've also written aguide about PCB vias, it also talks a lot about PCBs in general - it is quite deep however.. try to read it and if can follow along that's great, if not you can always return to it later.- Passion and perseverance are key. Stick with it and you'll see progress.Best of Luck

author: armandine2
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 15, 2021, 01:06:55 pm
content: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Sensors-Transducers-M-J-Usher/dp/0333387104There is a schematic for a capacitance displacement transducer in above which IMO is a good vehicle for practical op amp circuits.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 15, 2021, 06:01:48 pm
content: Here's a cheap +15 -15V power supply that is perfect for dual rail op amp experiments. w2aew has several op amp videos and so does eevblog.https://www.jameco.com/z/PD-2515-MEAN-WELL-Power-Supply-Dual-Output-Open-Frame-15V-1A-Negative-15V-1A-24W_2100857.htmlTake a standard op amp, add a 1 ufd feedback capacitor and a 1M Ohm input resistor (ground the non-inverting input) and you have an integrator. Ground the input side of the resistor and the output will eventually reach 0V. Now, apply some positive voltage and the output will ramp linearly in the opposite direction. Remove the input voltage and the output should stay for a while. Apply a similar negative voltage and the output will ramp up. Normally, the input signals are in the range of -10V--0V--+10V. You could probably see the same effect using a potentiometer across the -15V and +15V scales as long as you don't try for 0V or +15V. Keep the signal in the +-10V range.What you have is an op amp integrator. When you get a little further along with math, you will run into the mass-spring-damper problem as a differential equation. You can put 2 integrators in series and use another couple of op amps as inverters or summers and solve the equation on your oscilloscope. An analog computer!https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Op_amp_integratorThat classic mass-spring-damper problem is described here:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Analog_computerFirst things first: Ohm's Law, simple transistor circuits, simple op amp circuits, analog computing - in about that order...This is simple on the surface but profound in its applications.

author: Jan Audio
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 16, 2021, 02:38:16 pm
content: Just dont go paying for software, your money will grow faster, and works as resellable investment if spend wise.

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2021, 04:39:46 am
content: Quote from: rstofer on July 22, 2021, 02:44:37 pmAllow me to echorstoferwith a loud speaker...A good math foundation is important in understanding not just EE but other sciences. Since you are interested in EE, that put you in the category of folks who may work harder to understand math and sciences. With you being a freshman in high school, you can build up quite a lead in the years to come before college.Take not just the maths, but Physics, Chemistry and other STEM stuff as well. In high school Physics, it will cover stuff like Ohm's law and elementary mechanics. Chemistry may have nothing to do with diodes and capacitors, but the foundation of Science reinforce each other.Good science students are hard to come by these days.Too many student go the easier routes of "whatever study". So, high achieving STEM students are recruited (at least that was the case 4 years ago since the students I am about to cite just finished). I know of a couple of STEM majors with good high school records and good SAT, they were offered "full scholarships" (full as in exceeding tuition, so extra dollars goes to books and expenses), managed to get good enough GPA to renew the scholarships every year till graduation. So they come out with a free degree and debt free plus a professional job; whereas, two other "art design" major I know of came out with a sizable student loan and are now at just above minimum wage jobs.You are a freshman in high school, so it will be a few years yet before you hit college. Keep working on EE, study ahead (study ahead as in studying things not just for your curriculum but for higher grades). If you learn Ohms Law now, you are ahead of most other students. Math and Physics will help you understand EE better; Programming (even if it is JAVA or Visual Basic) will help you understand Micro-controllers and programming; Chemistry, Biology will help you understand scientific methods better... etc., etc. Join the robotics (or similar clubs) and get some "rubber meets the road" experience... etc., etc."Study ahead" can also take an official form - AP (advanced placement). You can get college credit while you are still in high-school. AP Physics, AP Calculus, so on. Not only would AP put you in a higher playing field, it is also a way to shorten college, or use your college time (if you have full scholarship) to widen your study such as double-major and things of that sort.Start now, by the time you are a senior, you are well prepared with a track record that shines. College will be cheaper with some scholarship, or free with a full scholarship...Best wishes to you.

author: Kerlin
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2021, 06:29:07 am
content: My suggestion is to do exactly as Rick Law (above) says.You don't want a job as a tech finding faulty transistors, ICs and capacitors, been there done that, wasted decades.Analogue electronics is dead, gone the way of the valve.Dont spend your time trying to save peoples throw outs from the rubbish tip.You want to look at $100K plus, there is a future in that.For a hobby check out the Teensy websitehttps://www.pjrc.com/teensy/Get involved in that kind of gear not power supplies, op amps, transistors,soldering, checking the ESR of capacitors - in the near future that will all have been a waste of your time, thats how things used to be.Make a CRO using a Teensy.Best not even get too involved at a hobby level, just a passing interest is enough for now, things have changed very much.Get ready for the near the future not the good ol' days.

author: fourfathom
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2021, 06:59:52 am
content: Quote from: Kerlin on September 17, 2021, 06:29:07 amYou're kidding, right???If you want to learn electronics you should learn the fundamentals (Ohm's Law and the like), and know how a transistor works. Learn at least the rudiments of analog electronics. Go ahead and play with Teensy, arduino, PIC, etc, and that will likely be extremely useful experience too, but basic analog design knowledge is crucial.

author: AaronLee
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2021, 07:03:53 am
content: Quote from: Kerlin on September 17, 2021, 06:29:07 amI have to agree, and slightly disagree. I started out with a basic knowledge of electronics, which was almost totally analog electronics in those days, then my interests changed and became targeted at computers/software and digital circuits. I spent the next several decades working mostly in the digital arena, and leaving anything analog for some other engineer to worry about, and my analog knowledge became quite rusty. I now find myself wanting to brush up on my analog skills, by revisiting analog circuits from many years past, getting back into repair of old gear (strictly as a hobby), and such. I really think it's important to have a good foundation in both analog and digital, and to not let either skills get too rusty as you go through life. Sure, concentrate on one part (whichever interests you most or whichever you think is the best career move). But engineers who truly / fully understand analog circuits are a dying breed, and sometimes that knowledge is critical, even in a mostly digital circuit. Engineers who truly understand everything, both analog and digital will be a step ahead of those who know only digital and who's analog skills are zero or very little. Just my personal opinion regarding this matter.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2021, 07:08:30 am
content: Quote from: fourfathom on September 17, 2021, 06:59:52 amI’ll second that.All electronics are analogue. There’s just an abstraction over it in the digital domain. To truly understand what you’re doing you need to know the lower domains. I’ve seen a lot of people come unstuck very quickly the moment they need to interface one domain to another. Or as a matter of fact even do basic signal processing.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2021, 05:03:43 pm
content: There are MANY "Learn Electronics" websites. Here is one and it seems pretty good:https://startingelectronics.org/beginners/start-electronics-now/learn-electronics-for-beginners/At the site there is a list of required tools along with a shopping list for parts. If working on an Arduino, the Arduino Starter Kits are very complete and, in this particular case, the tutorials are excellent:https://www.amazon.com/ELEGOO-Project-Tutorial-Controller-Projects/dp/B01D8KOZF4I'm a big believer in learning by building. I'm pretty convinced that it is the only way I actually learn anything.At the hobby level, math isn't usually a big deal. A little E=I*R or I=E/R or R=E/I (all variations of Ohm's Law) will just about cover it for quite a long way.We should have another discussion about arithmetic, units and orders of magnitude...

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2021, 05:11:54 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on September 17, 2021, 07:08:30 amBob Widlar's thoughts on digital attachedhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Widlar

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2021, 05:49:28 pm
content: Quote from: AaronLee on September 17, 2021, 07:03:53 amI think we are actually all on the same page. Just a complication betweenusefulness in the applicationvsusefulness for job opportunities.From a career standpoint, analog has very little job opportunities in the developed countries (largely "The West"). May be in some still developing countries analog electronics job opportunities are in abundance, or at least in survivable quantity for those who must work to make a living. Less so in "The West". No doubt, programming and digital electronics are following the same trend.I am more familiar with the programming world than in the electronics world. So I'll use the programming world to make the point. I observed that in the programming world in the USA, Google, Facebook and the likes (tier-1 may be a descriptive label) are offering internships, scoping up the cream by offering above average pay, and then keep the cream of the cream "converting" them from intern to employees. How many Computer Science graduates can they "convert"? Pitifully few.So the programming world is rather bifurcated -- a small population working at tier-1 with good income, and then the rest. Their jobs may not last long, but they at least got a good job for a while. The rest, which comprises most CS graduates, is further bifurcated - those employed by the company they program for, such as an insurance company (and the likes) requiring some in-house programmers, and those employed by the "body shops" as programmers for hire. "Programmers for hire" has far less a career opportunity than those working as in-house programmers.The above made me believe that a job in the future requires flexibility and adaptability. So my suggestion to the OP boils down to:You are a freshman in high school, so you have plenty of runway ahead yet. You have EE interest. Youshould continue to practice it, and leverage it as well. Being interested in the subject make it easier to develop skills in the subject (STEM). College is not the only way, but it does increase opportunity. It also expose you to other potential future careers you may not even know existed.Leverage it to make yourself well-rounded (in STEM), thus a more desirable candidate for college, scholarships, and jobs.Leveraging it to lessen the cost of college makes the hobby all the more enticing. Even if college or scholarships are not in play, just getting into a higher playing field will make you a more valuable applicant at college or for your first job.Sincerely, good luck to you. I think competition for a good job is getting stiffer and stiffer. Levrage your interest to expand your knowledge and your horizon. You will be a lot harder to be intimidated however stiff the competition may be.

author: Kerlin
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2021, 11:28:33 pm
content: Sure thing Rick.People who think people get stuck on DSP projects have never worked on them or seen them. Such projects are done as a team not an individual.Complete support is provided by the project supervisor who sits out the front and watches every one's screen and ensures that all the work done by individuals can marry up together.I have been amazed at the ability of those supervisors, I didn't previously even believe such individuals could even exist.There is no getting stuck as there are team members with different specialties and operators at this level are able to pick concepts up in half an hour.They are of course are well qualified in the basics of electronics. Any problems then specialists are there or got in from outside.I even had difficulty doing FFTs on a particular processor so they the local chip manufacturer's specialist in to coach me.Even before these day Semiconductor manufacturers provided Field Applications Engineers who regularly visited everyone who was working on projects with using their chips, to help them with any difficulties and they could call in further support if required.In one project I am thinking of I was one of the few members of one team that didn't ride a skate board to work.In that project when I went home other team members in other countries would continue to work on the project. There were engineers in four countries working on it around the clock. That was a big infrastructure radio comms project.The problem I have with such projects is my documentation is not good, a hang over from the old days from working alone in asia, I had to I didn't speak the language very well.I remember I used to read old electronics magazines were I would see old men consistently arguing that transistors would never take over from valves, times have not changed.If the young fellow here wants some instrumentation and measuring gear I would recommend he instead look at one of these not a CRO as such.Its a credit card credit card sized board that can transform into oscilloscope, signal gen, spectrum analyzer, logic analyzer, amateur radio station, SDR receiver, LCR meter, Bode analyzer, can be controlled by using Matlab, LabView, Python & Scilab. And its as cheap as chips.This device is in fact the very type of application he needs to aim at working on, yes make yourself a more valuable applicant at college or for your first job.https://redpitaya.com/Yer I am an old school guy licensed ham radio operator, ex T.V. serviceman and all that.In my day we spent a whole term on ohms law and a whole year on Thevinin's/Norton's/Nodal. That's all done in a few hours now.He best get ready for it as there are going to be a mass of applicants applying for the very few jobs left in replacing capacitors for peanuts.

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2021, 01:59:08 am
content: Quote from: Kerlin on September 17, 2021, 11:28:33 pmCambrian Extinctions styled event repeating itself time and again... We the present day trilobites need to find new ways of making a living, again, and again, and again.As I said earlier, flexibility and adaptability...In truth, "flexibility and adaptability" is easier said than done, but what is the alternative?

author: Kerlin
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2021, 05:57:10 am
content: I try to just say my piece and leave a thread, but I do want to answer your point above.For me I had a bit of an wakening happened when read and I watched about the elasticity of the brain.In particular I was amazed at people who had lost part of their brain in an accident and the way the part left adapted so well.After seeing that I decided as old as I was and after failed attempts there was hope, even for me, and got up and rushed in. Thirty years ago.Staying motivated is the answer. The person who started this thread is curious and motivated. In my opinion that's the way to go.

author: MathWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2021, 09:43:51 pm
content: Don't forget old textbooks. New ones cost an arm and a leg, but old ones, in perfect condition, can be found for real cheap. I just bought a couple more old textbooks, paid $10 each on ebay, and they are in great shape, from the 1990's.Now I can't wait for winter, when my regular work slows down, I will become a math/EE hermit again.

author: fourfathom
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2021, 10:44:53 pm
content: To the OP: Please don't stop building and testing and experimenting while you are learning that important math and theory. For me, anyway, getting early hands-on experience made it much easier to appreciate and apply what little math I learned later.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2021, 12:55:00 am
content: Quote from: MathWizard on September 18, 2021, 09:43:51 pmMy favorite source is Alibris.com. They will usually have new books as well as used books in various conditions. For some truly ancient books, they may be the only source.Here the result of a search for 'pre-calculus'https://www.alibris.com/booksearch?mtype=B&keyword=pre-calculus&hs.x=0&hs.y=0There are some 'For Dummies' books, there are crib notes and a host of textbooks.I did that search because Pre-Calculus is the entry point for all the math courses coming down the line. The subjects covered in Pre-Calculus must be mastered.Even though there is an annual fee, I think that CalcWorkshop.com is a terrific resource even, or maybe especially, for high school math. Yes, it costs money but education is never really free.https://calcworkshop.com/

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2021, 05:08:29 am
content: Quote from: rstofer on September 19, 2021, 12:55:00 amI agree withrstoferwith the importance of pre-calc. Before you attack that, you need reasonably good understanding of algebra. Make sure you get your algebra solid. Many who got crushed by pre-calc or calculus failed is not because of pre-calc being hard, but failed because their foundation were bad. They can't solve simple algebra. So keep that in mind. A quick review of your prior algebra first before hitting pre-calc may be a good tactic.If you completed pre-calc and almost fully understood the material, you are ahead of many. If you manage AP Calculus (AB track), you are in very good shape. If instead of AB track, you find yourself able to take BC track instead, you got yourself into even better shape and ahead of many college freshman or college sophomore -- Except if you compare yourself to those majoring in Mathematics, they probably got AP Calculus (BC track) done before college to show "they can" do math.Calculus seem intimidating. Some people just froze or just shut down. Don't let that scare you.Does your high school has a Robotic Club or an Electronics Club? If so, join them. You will meet more like you. Mutual support (between team/club members) and mutual encouragement will help you advance as well as develop your EE capability along the way. You may even get your hands on some interesting equipment.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2021, 03:55:41 pm
content: Quote from: Rick Law on September 19, 2021, 05:08:29 amThe Calculus is easy, it's the pre-calc (or lack thereof) that will kill you.Normally, the first math course in college is Calc I. To take that you need the skills of pre-calc whether there was such a course offered or not. Algebra I, Algebra II, Geometry and Trigonometry ought to cover it. These are usually taught in the 4 years of high school so there is no need to spend a year taking a dedicated pre-calc course. Unless you don't have those 4 topics under control.Given all the tutorial sites on the Internet, pre-calc is something that can be picked up as a side issue to whatever is going on in school.If I wanted to learn math with a formal series of classes, I would pay for the CalcWorkshop program. It is priced by the year and you proceed at your own pace. You can do a lot of math while confined to quarters by the pandemic.Khan Academy is also excellent but it doesn't seem to be as structured as CalcWorkshop. I like them both and subscribe to Khan Academy (even old people should pay for education). I paid for a couple of years of CalcWorksop to help my grandson with his college work.3Blue1Brown is also quite good but not intended to substitute for a formal program (in my view) and begins at a higher level. The author does a terrific job with animations.This assumes the OP's interest is in EE, not just hobby level projects using the copy-and-paste method. We never did nail down which definition of 'learn electronics' is in play.

author: Jwillis
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2021, 05:11:00 pm
content: Quote from: mjn2024 on July 15, 2021, 06:36:41 pmHappy birthday and welcome to the world of electronics.A good with the equipment you have . Get your self a GOOD breadboard until your comfortable with what could go wrong . Cheap ones can be frustrating for the beginner . Start with low voltages under 30VDC . Higher voltages require advanced knowledge and when things go wrong can have catastrophic consequences . As your knowledge improves so does the comfort level improve .Arduio's are OK but are really just electronics Lego and don't really teach you what is going on unless you investigate what the individual components do . Kits are fine but in most cases don't come with any tutorial instructions on the inner workings .I suggest getting yourself some basic component kits . I suggest kits because you get a few of each component which allows you to make a few mistakes while learning . Resistor kits , BJT transistor kit , a few regulators like the 78xx series , few LEDs and some general purpose op amps like the LM741 and /or LM324 . There are other assortment kits available that are quite inexpensive . Most other components like small transformers and inductors can be scavenged from old broken electronics found in second hand stores . You don't need to buy the most expensive stuff to learn with. There is no functional difference between through hole components and surface mount components . Just the scale.As some one mentioned , The Art of Electronics which gives great insight with example projects. Another set of books would be the " Encyclopedia of Electronic Components " Volumes 1 , 2 and 3 . These show your what the most used components do and what can go wrong . You can download these for free .Start with simple circuits because every complex circuit is just a multitude of simple circuits . There are no magic leprechauns inside a CPU , just a whole bunch of simple circuits .Get yourself some basic saftey gear like saftey glasses and ESD gloves for those finicky microchips .Most of all , Have Fun ! Its OK to just blow things up for the sake of blowing things up. You can learn much when you take a resistor to it's limit and beyond . Just keep the windows open or your experiment outside. Parents don't like unknown smoke or shrapnel. And use your saftey equipment !Lastly come here and ask your questions . Theirs no such thing as a stupid question . All these people here are knowledgeable and experienced , which would be happy to answer questions and walk you through procedures .Again , Welcome and have fun with the exciting world of electronics .

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2021, 06:18:17 pm
content: Quote from: rstofer on September 19, 2021, 03:55:41 pmFoundations, foundations...If you really do have an interest in EE to the extend of getting a degree in EE and/or doing it for a living, make sure you do pre-calc well. That wellness indicates the wellness of your foundation. You will use that foundational knowledge over and over again.If you are merely interested in playing around with electronics and not much more than that, pre-calc will help, but a hobby clearly would not have as much importance.What follows is mainly for "if your interest is to the extend of a degree in EE and beyond":Pre-calc is merely review and firm up the basics from from grade 1 to grade 6,plusAlgebra, equation handling, graph reading, basic logic, statistics, basic trigonometry, and basic geometry. It was (4 or 5 years ago) done in grade 7-8 for those on A track (stronger in math). Given current sensitivity, I am not sure schools have A track B track any more.One may think, what does Geometry or Trigonometry has to do with Electronics? Both Geometry and Trigonometry will help develop your Spatial Reasoning (no typo there, I mean spatial as in space). Spatial Reasoning along with the abstract thinking (helped a lot by Algebra) are the skills you use to think about something that doesn't exist: like a PCB to be build, or a set of parts to be installed in a box but not yet constructed into existence yet. Can you picture that part (and even rotate it) in your mind that PCB in the box before that PCB or the box existed? Similar and related skill as in thinking about relativity when one can't really get near the speed of light to visualize what happens.Being able to pass the course is not the same as actually learned the material and incorporated the material in your thinking. There area few "special" courses at school that are gut checks. I called them gates. Barely sneaked pass the "gate" will not serve you well - you will get stuck and pay for it later. Pre-Calc is one such gate at the high school level. An example at college level is "Assembler and/or Machine language" is one for those who wants to go deep into Computer Science instead of just application programming. First year physics (non-physics major) is another gut-check for those going into Engineering.Take those on-line pre-calc course as many times as you need to make sure you understand rather than just "get by" merely obtained just enough to pass. I assure you, if you merely "got by" pre-calc, you will pay for it later by having much more trouble getting through other courses.EDIT:Most are typos, but missed one important one in the line "Pre-calc is merely review and firm up the basics..." Missed the word "plus" to correct the mistakenly ended sentence there. "Plus" is added with bold.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 20, 2021, 06:41:59 pm
content: Just to post the EE curriculum for a specific university:https://engineering.pacific.edu/sites/default/files/users/user314/Electrical%20Engineering%2012.2020.pdfPay attention to the notes at the bottom of page 2. The total will be about 120 units of course work and 32 units of internships (two summer sessions) or 152 units overall. See "Minimum Totals ...". It is possible to take 15 units per semester and finish in about 4 years with internships following the sophomore and junior years. Fifteen units per semester in a STEM program is a pretty full load, don't plan on a lot of partying. The workload could be cut back to 12 units per semester but it would take 5 years. Since tuition is based on a semester basis, independent of the number of courses taken, adding a year adds a ton of cost. There are some accelerated summer sessions but the internship requirement may get in the way. Cost versus time - a classic problem.Note that the Mathematics portion starts with Calculus I - the university assumes you have mastered pre-calc before enrolling. A course at a junior college will add a year to the duration (two semesters).I don't want this to be discouraging! Students graduate every term and if they can do it, so can you! Study groups can help. Teaching Assistants are available as well. There's a lot of help, just ask!There's a reason that STEM students are described as having glazed eyes and no social skills!

author: Robert_322
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: October 05, 2021, 11:59:39 am
content: Even so, this sounded quite discouraging, but I think I can deal with it, as I am used to learning a lot. Plus, through the years I found many tricks and let's say secrets to learn quickly or to write some essays in a professional and academic way. Sometimes I useacademic paper editingif I don't have time to edit it by myself or even to proofread it. It is a good time saver and I can do other things instead, for example, reading a book or spend time with my friends.

author: Elixabondar
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: October 14, 2023, 09:53:50 am
content: This Electrical Engineering curriculum is no walk in the park! It's a demanding program with a substantial workload. The note about the balance between cost and time is a real concern for students. However, the message emphasizes that it's achievable, and with the right support, you can make it through. The reference to STEM students having "glazed eyes and no social skills" adds a touch of humor to the challenges they face. 📚💡👩‍🔬👨‍🔬🤯

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2023, 01:43:15 pm
content: To control costs, take the first two years at a community college. Make sure the units will transfer to the desired college/university. Counselors know about transfer credits for the various colleges.Then take the last 2 years at a state college or university.I would think that a public education should cost $10k or so for the entire program. Maybe as much as twice that. Still, a bargain!$20k might cover a single semester at a private university but maybe not. 10 semesters (5 years) is a lot of money ($200k) and there is no need to spend this much.Ask about scholarships and be careful about student loans.

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2023, 07:18:14 pm
content: Quote from: rstofer on October 14, 2023, 01:43:15 pm[ Bold added ]Re: Credit TransferTransferability alone may not be an adequate yard-stick. There is a question of level.Just to clarify what I mean by level: Depending on university, EE and other hard-science course may require "more comprehensive versions" of the course. For example, an Anthropology major may require Physics 101 & 102, where as, a Physics/Engineering major may require the similar but harder Physics 103 & 104 which are the "harder" versions of 101 & 102. How the university handles a credittransfer will depend on the university's policy receiving the transfer.I've seen credits being transferable, but not at an "equivalent" level. If you already identified likely university for after community college, I would suggest check with the target university regarding the credit transfer.I also looked into on-line "degree mill" university credit transfer (per request by a relative for his son), their "transferable" 400 level course credit was "transferable" to a 100 level course.So, just "transferable" is not enough. How it transfers matter.Re: Scholarships / Loans(OP, I assume you are in the USA based on your profile, so this applies):Scholarships typically ismerit based. If you arenot wealthy, definitely look into the FederalPell Grantswhich isneed basedand grants are like scholarships,you don't need to pay it back. Current Pell Grants limit is around$7.5K/year up to 6 years. How much you get will depend on your "need" which is calculated base on family income, etc., evaluated base on Federal Poverty Guidelines. Even if you are above the poverty level per guidelines (ie: not in proverty), you can still get the grant, just at a lower amount. Then there is the Federal "Work-Study" and other.For more info, check thishttps://www.benefits.gov/benefit/417Or call:Federal Student Aid Information Center (FSAIC) at the following toll-free number:1-800-4-FED-AID (1-800-433-3243)Last but not least:Many a well known individuals used (military) ROTC scholarships. ROTC is "Reserve Officer Training Corp". You attend university full time, and serve part time. They pay for school as well as spending money. Amount is based on merit. Some good candidates will get full scholarship at the get go. Some will start without hoping to qualify into it during training. You get a job after graduation -- in fact, you must serve the military for X number of years -- or else you need to pay the money back. But by the time you are done with that few years of service, not only are you educated, you also have actual management and leadership experience. The X in the X years service is variable, a mix of active service and/or as reserved.Navy / Marines has Navy ROTC, Army has Army ROTC, Air Force / Space Force has Air Force ROTC.If you have seen the movie "A Few Good Men", you saw the main character Lt. Daniel Kaffee (Tom Cruise) serving his "X-years of service" in the JAG corp as lawyer. The other common non-combat types are nurses and doctors. But, you will still drill like a fighting man/woman during college -- part time.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2023, 07:51:21 pm
content: Quote from: Rick Law on October 14, 2023, 07:18:14 pmI wouldn't expect any upper division credits to transfer but there are a bunch of BS classes that will. World History, US History, California History, English and similar courses are fairly common for transfers. In fact, it is these classes that make a community college program worthwhile.I wouldn't expect any STEM classes to transfer and a year of pre-calc won't count for anything at any level. You should already know this subject before you even apply for Calc I. Our community college tests for this subject before accepting enrollment in Calc I.

author: nigelwright7557
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2023, 08:27:25 pm
content: A cheap way to learn is make things you can sell on ebay.That way you get some money back on the components.

author: jonovid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2023, 10:23:20 pm
content: talking electronicshttps://www.talkingelectronics.com/

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2023, 02:29:00 am
content: Quote from: rstofer on October 14, 2023, 07:51:21 pmWe are on the same page. Those "side courses" is what community college is great at. The hard-science courses not so much. Exceptions are those not directly on one's focus (such as, Biology for an EE major), using community college credit to cover those is a viable path.I am on the fence with calc courses. Of course it should be done prior to college if possible. But if one must, even in community colleges, Calc requires little resources other than a good teacher. Lack of a good lab/hardware is not an issue. Calc teachers is much easy to find than say Engineering, Physics or Chemistry. So community college for Calc is still viable,For those still in High School, AP calc probably is as good as Junior college. I don't know if they still do, but 5-6 years back, they have two tracks for AP Calc. One of the track is advanced and was pretty good and transferable.If you play your cards right, you could get more than a whole year of college credit via AP course while still in High School. (Yes, I've seen it done.)

author: alligatorblues
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2023, 05:08:09 am
content: The simplest circuits are in data sheets. I made a precision current source with about $20 in components. I just took it off a data sheet for an op amp.

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2023, 05:30:50 am
content: Quote from: mjn2024 on July 15, 2021, 06:36:41 pmKeep in mind that the vast majority of electronic products in the world today are just a microcontroller with some buttons, switches, LEDs, motors and other input/output sensors connected to the microcontroller.What you could focus on is interfacing things to the microcontroller in a more advanced way.Like maybe you could use an opamp to interface something to the mcu input, maybe as a high or low pass filter.Or a transistor so you can control more current than the microcontroller outputs can supply.Or maybe design a charge pump driven by the MCU to produce a higher output voltage. This is often done for 3.3V microcontroller so they can drive a white or blue LED. (This option is a bit more advanced, as you could damage your MCU if you do it wrong, which could be an issue if you only have one of them)Plenty of things to learn about how to interface a microcontroller to the outside world, and they are all useful skill to have.

author: EPAIII
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2023, 09:28:39 am
content: Oh good grief! He is a high school student, not a billionaire.I started learning electricity in grade school. Scopes, function generators, multimeters, scientific calculator? I had batteries (mostly used ones), wires, light bulbs, and door bell buttons. A soldering iron? The first thing I learned about soldering was you could not do it with a wood burning tool. It just wasn't how enough. I made magnets from nails and old screws/bolts. I made a buzzer from scraps in my family's garage. If you can make a buzzer that buzzes, that is more educational than writing a thousand lines of computer code. I was in pig's heaven when I got my first transistor. He could still today learn a lot with a one transistor dimming circuit for an LED. More than he will ever learn just hooking up an IC with a provided schematic. And the parts can be had for well under one dollar.This guy is already miles ahead of where I was in equipment, BUT I LEARNED. And so can he. WITHOUT any laundry list of "must have equipment".What is more important is BOOKS and MAGAZINES. Find them and READ THEM. Don't overlook the back issues of the magazines. Understand the basics. I lived in libraries. The public library two blocks from my house. The ones at my schools. And others in the area. I often traveled over an hour on public busses and street cars to go to the main public library in my area. And sat there reading for hours before going home. I read everything I could. Today all that can be done in your bedroom or den with a computer. READ, READ, READ! And after you understand the basics and know what you want to do, then look for this or that "must have" item of equipment.Quote from: bd139 on July 16, 2021, 03:47:02 pm