I finally decided on a degree program - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: etstudent
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 11, 2013, 03:07:41 pm
content: Some of you may remember me as the guy looking for a degree program, well I found the one, and I am already enrolled in it. Its not strictly an Electronics engineering technology program, its more of an electrical maintenance program. Its the direction I really feel comfortable moving forward in. Its a direction I actually would rather go in. Anyway this is the program:http://www.pennfostercollege.edu/industrial-electronics-maintenance/ProgramOutline.htmlI know some might not like that its a "for profit" school but I like them so far. The education seems very, very good, and in depth. Interesting program so far. The math coming up scares me but I will need to learn it, so I will do my best. I have Geometry, algebra, trigonometry, precalculus, and the metric system. Kind of daunting to me, but I gotta do it. Any thoughts I will appreciate your input?

author: Flávio V
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 11, 2013, 08:34:46 pm
content: So the metric system is now scary??I would be scared of imperial if i was there....1 mili-meter is 39.4mils, a meter are 1000 mili-meters, a kilometer are 1 million mili-meters...Metric system uses the pico,nano,mili,unit,kilo,mega,giga,tera... so a unit will increase of name if is 1000 times bigger...Much better than:1 "mile"=1760 "yards"Metric is goody:1k meter=1000 meters=1000k mili meters

author: smashedProton
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 11, 2013, 08:36:16 pm
content: Check out dave's video on orders of magnitude. That will set you straight!

author: Stiege
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 11, 2013, 09:27:14 pm
content: Khan Academy is great for this stuff:Videos for whatever level you're at. From arithmetic right up to some heavy calculus concepts. Sponsored by the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation.Here's the playlist page:https://www.youtube.com/user/khanacademy/videos?flow=grid&view=1

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 11, 2013, 09:50:20 pm
content: A compulsory Arts and Humanities Elective?That's always been a pet peeve of mine. You sign up for a specific specialist course and are forced have to do other stuff. Isn't that what high school is for?One class for the Fundamentals of Electronics? That's a lot to cover in one class!It's interesting to see the differences in associates degrees and degrees around the world.In my course for example we had separate introductory electronics elements - analog, digital, semiconductors, and power.Although given that this is maintenance focused then that's probably understandable.Have fun!Dave.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 11, 2013, 09:54:36 pm
content: Quote from: etstudent on February 11, 2013, 03:07:41 pmCalculus is usually the hardest one to wrap your head around, but a lot of people seem to have trouble with complex number theory as well, which I'm sure you will do also.The best thing about studying today is that there are countless video and online stuff stuff out there that can teach you this. So the best plan is to go into each class already knowing some basics, then it will be easy.Not everyone learns the same way, so you might have to try 2 or 3 different approaches to the same topic before you find one where you just go "ah, NOW I get it".Dave.

author: etstudent
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 11, 2013, 09:59:32 pm
content: Quote from: Stiege on February 11, 2013, 09:27:14 pmThanks I just discovered Khan and they will be VERY helpful in this program. It is awesome that there so many great online websites dedicated to free education. I am amazed actually. There are formulas and calculators for everything math wise and formula wise. Impressive I must say.

author: etstudent
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 11, 2013, 10:07:55 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on February 11, 2013, 09:50:20 pmThanks Dave, yeah no one hates the "non-career" parts of the degree more than me, but they make ya do it, so I have to do it. Also yeah its a maintenance program. I would like to be a manufacturing/industrial mechanic/technician/electrician. I need very much to learn PLC's for this. They have a PLC program, but I think I will also take a separate specialized PLC program also.I am excited about this program, Its gonna be tough doing the school work around working. Also there is a hands-on lab at Penn State U in the 4th semester. I talked to them and I can't wait to get in that lab. I was dreading it, but after talking to the instructor that runs the lab, I can't wait to get onto it. Its packed every minute with hands-on lessons. I loved the sound of it to be honest.Thanks for all the feedback guys.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 11, 2013, 10:10:49 pm
content: QuoteUGH!!!3 Credits for the wordpad of the CAD programs? You better learn it fast and move on to more serious stuff. I am an autocad user for the last 15 years and I would agree that it is the absolute rock bottom foundation of CAD and you cannot go very far without learning it first. However Autocad has largely stayed still while the rest of the world moved forward, so better not waste too much time with it. Learn Solid Works and even SketchUP (this one looks unassuming but it is a very potent weapon).

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 11, 2013, 10:20:06 pm
content: Quote from: etstudent on February 11, 2013, 10:07:55 pmYou can learn a lot in a single PLC class.In practice it all comes down to learning a particular vendors system, kinda like using a PCB or CAD tool.I wonder if they still teach and use ladder logic these days, or if it's all changed? That's what we did, and learnt on the Allen Bradley gear.No software/programming stuff? I would have though maybe a Labview program or something at least would have been very worthwhile in such a course?Dave.

author: Bored@Work
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 11, 2013, 10:29:57 pm
content: Quote from: etstudent on February 11, 2013, 03:07:41 pmHe selected a distance learning program, no classes. Not even the exams need to be taken on site. He can basically name his own exam proctor. National accredited only.

author: Stiege
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 11, 2013, 10:45:45 pm
content: Quote from: Bored@Work on February 11, 2013, 10:29:57 pmYeah, the course does look more like a pre-cursor to more advance study.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 11, 2013, 10:54:24 pm
content: Quote from: Stiege on February 11, 2013, 10:45:45 pmIt's an Associate degree. In other words it's like a vocational training certificate or diploma designed for people looking for a job in a skilled technical trade.It could be viewed as a stepping stone to a Bachelor's degree, or simply as a qualification in itself.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 11, 2013, 11:13:36 pm
content: How long is this course?There doesn't look like enough material and classes to even cover a typical 2 year full time dipoma level course, let alone a 3 year associates degree?Dave.

author: Stiege
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 11, 2013, 11:22:44 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on February 11, 2013, 10:54:24 pmNot that I'm in a position where I hire people, but if I were I'd be unlikely to consider an online year long course as being worthwhile training. Especially as it covers "how to use a scientific calculator" in detail, but no mention of an oscilloscope or multimeter until semester 3.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 11, 2013, 11:31:37 pm
content: Quote from: Stiege on February 11, 2013, 11:22:44 pmDoesn't four semesters work out at two years?I read the course as providing training for an industrial electrician and maintainer of electrical machinery. I don't think it should be taken as training for a desk job. It's for people who will be working on the shop floor, is it not?(And that being the case, the mix of subjects is odd. What is the possible relevance of music appreciation? But I just take that as a sign the that US education system is screwed up.)

author: Stiege
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 11, 2013, 11:53:46 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on February 11, 2013, 11:31:37 pmYeah I thought 4 semesters would be 2 years... but then the course material seems very light. US education may be screwed, but no more so than many other places I guess. I'm not sure what the "for profit" model is, but I can see that they must be raking in some good coin for actually providing very few resources. Money might be better spent just reading the free stuff online, buying a few text books and some tools.

author: etstudent
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 12, 2013, 01:18:10 am
content: #1 guys that is just an outline. The actual lessons within are MUCH, MUCH more than what you see. There are actually two different courses on CADD. #2 this is a full 64 credit program, that is a legit Associates degree, not a certificate. #3 National accreditation is completely 100% accepted by employers, 70% of the time the credits transfer to RA schools. #4 These credits will transfer nicely into a Electronics engineering technology program that I have my eye on already. I probably will not go that far, but I can, I checked. #5 All that stuff that you deem not necessary, and that I would LOVE to skip is what makes this a real degree program. Degree program give you a well rounded complete education, not just career training. Believe me I'd like to skip it, but that is what makes this a "degree program". Thanks for the concern though.

author: etstudent
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 12, 2013, 02:03:51 am
content: Also while I do pick the proctor, it has to be approved by the school and there are rules. They can't be related to me, and they have to have at least an associates degree. Libraries are the best place to have a proctored exam. I already talked to my library that does this, and its free through them which is awesome.

author: Stiege
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 12, 2013, 02:05:29 am
content: Quote from: etstudent on February 12, 2013, 01:18:10 amIn other countries a degree (by definition pretty much) is 3 years. An engineering degree is 4 years (as it is an honours degree). A proper engineering degree will be internationally accredited and recognised under the washington accord:http://www.washingtonaccord.org/washington-accord/.

author: etstudent
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 12, 2013, 02:22:06 am
content: Oh well here an associates is 2 years or 4 semesters. A bachelors is 4 years or 8 semesters. Roughly 60 credits for an A.S. and 120 for a B.S.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 12, 2013, 02:24:09 am
content: It's true. An associates degree in the USA is not a degree as such, it is just given the name "degree" to make it sound good. What you are signed up for is something along the lines of what would be called anHNCorHNDin the UK.It's OK if a full engineering degree is out of reach for you; that path is not suited for everyone. However, you should not imagine you are going to reach the same level of study as someone who graduates with a bachelor's in engineering.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 12, 2013, 02:43:37 am
content: Quote from: IanB on February 12, 2013, 02:24:09 amIn Australia, a 3 year engineering course is called a Diploma, Associate Diploma, or Advanced Diploma. We don't use the term "degree" to refer to anything other than a 4 year engineering program. And regardless of the name, that's how it's accepted world wide, an engineering degree is 4 years full time.There are 3 years "degrees" here, but they are for courses like arts, and I think a few general science ones have it too.The Sydney Accord recognises 3 years programs at "engineering technologists"http://www.washingtonaccord.org/sydney/And the Dublin Accord recognises 2 year programs for "technicians".http://www.washingtonaccord.org/dublin/So yes, unless you have done a 4 year program, the term "degree" not not recognised in the industry.Dave.

author: etstudent
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 12, 2013, 03:30:04 am
content: Quote from: IanB on February 12, 2013, 02:24:09 amOh no doubt I won't be at the same level as someone with a bachelors degree, that's the point of taking an associates degree. Its 2 years of study or I should say 4 semester as apposed to 8 semesters. Its not the same, and I would never pretend it was. I think it will lead to something decent in the industry though, but only time will tell.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 12, 2013, 04:41:11 am
content: Quote from: etstudent on February 12, 2013, 03:30:04 amBare in mind that qualifications, in most of the general industry, are only useful for getting your first job. After that, it's what you know and who you know.Dave.

author: jhalar
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 12, 2013, 05:15:04 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on February 11, 2013, 09:50:20 pmThe one arts subject I had to take for my engineering degree at uni (1989) had a 50% pass rate just for turning up to class.Couldn't believe it at the time, thought there was a catch. Marks from the exam were a bonus.

author: etstudent
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 12, 2013, 02:01:52 pm
content: Bare in mind that qualifications, in most of the general industry, are only useful for getting your first job. After that, it's what you know and who you know.Dave.That's a good thing no? I'm just looking to get an entry level job and prove myself and run with it. By the way this is the program I "might" transfer my credits into:http://www.grantham.edu/online-degree/electronics-engineering-technology/#curriculumMight is in quotations because its a mighty big "might". I don't think I want to go this far, its just too much. I would like to but its just too much.

author: Stiege
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 12, 2013, 07:20:21 pm
content: Quote from: etstudent on February 12, 2013, 02:01:52 pmDepends on your qualifications and first job!

author: etstudent
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 13, 2013, 04:03:22 pm
content: I just received my books for the big math portion of the degree program. The first book is a very big general "math for trades" book. I looked through it, and I think I can get through it, I can learn it. The way this school breaks things down makes it easier to learn, to digest. I like this school to be honest, they are different, they do things a bit differently. It fits my style, and personality perfectly to be honest. If i have an questions, I will shoot them out here.

author: merlinb
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2013, 10:35:47 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on February 12, 2013, 02:43:37 amYikes, I got worried there for a second- had to look up how it works for the UK. Here virtually all degrees (BEng, BSc, BA...) are three years (my engineering degree is only three years, with honours, IET accredited). Four years is a masters. Fortunately, it appears that we're allowed to do this because we start school earlier than most countries, and we specialise sooner too.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 17, 2013, 10:56:13 am
content: Quote from: merlinb on February 17, 2013, 10:35:47 amThat's unusual, as the UK is a signatory to the Washington Accord, which defines a 4 year degree program AFAIK.Dave.

author: merlinb
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2013, 11:17:23 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on February 17, 2013, 10:56:13 amWith a three year UK degree (BEng) you can become anIncorporated Engineer, akaEngineering Technologist, akaEngineering Technician. With a four year masters degree you can become aChartered Engineer. Either way, the qualification is a degree and not diploma. Here a diploma is a level below a degree, but maybe the words are used differently in other countries? (I find America usually likes to do everything in reverse, so maybe there a diploma is better than a degree? And Australia seems to pick and choose between UK and US vernacular...)

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 17, 2013, 12:11:58 pm
content: Quote from: merlinb on February 17, 2013, 11:17:23 amI think it's pretty universal around the world that the word "degree" means the highest graduate level award you can get in graduate engineering. With masters and PhD usually being "post graduate" studies. I've never heard of a diploma being higher than a degree in any country?That's why it seems very strange with the OP using the word "degree" with what is basically a 2 year technician level course, but that term "associate degree" seems common in the US for community or private colleges, but I thought that only applied to 3 year courses?I don't think any university would use the term degree to describe a 2 year course? That would be a "certificate" level course here in Oz, the lowest you can get in any field of engineering.As I mentioned before, in Oz, for engineering, a Certificate is 2 years, Diploma is 3 years (at least one place I know uses the term Associate Degree), and a Degree is 4 years.Dave.

author: Bored@Work
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2013, 03:54:01 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on February 17, 2013, 12:11:58 pmIn some European countries the diploma is/was the highest engineering qualification, short of a PhD. For example in France, Austria (not Australia :-) ) or Finland. E.g in Finland they have the wonderful title diplomi-insinööri, and in France the Diplôme d'Ingénieur. In Austria it is the DI - Diplomingenieur.I wrote "is/was", because with the Bologna process (harmonisation of higher education qualifications in the EU) some of these titles are phased out, replased by the anglo-american Master title. A title traditionally used in Europe for master craftsmen only.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2013, 06:25:10 pm
content: What's happened in the UK is that a standard engineering degree (BSc, BEng) was always three years of study (as it was when I got my BSc), although they had to cram a lot of material into that three years to make it all fit. In my first year we had timetabled lectures, tutorials and labs from 9 to 5 every day of the week, so that all assignments, project write-ups and tutorial study had to be done in evenings and weekends. It was a punishing schedule.Around the time I was studying, some universities started to offer an MEng degree with four years of study open to the most able students. Originally, this was seen as a "super degree" (not a Masters, just an advanced undergraduate degree).Then gradually sentiment changed in the engineering world and the MEng started being seen as the regular degree, and the BEng as an inferior degree for weaker students. The professional institutions changed their requirements. Where originally a three year BEng would satisfy the academic requirements for professional registration it was no longer so. Now a four year MEng became the minimum.In theory, therefore, UK students get six years of study for their MEng degree: two years of foundation study in the sixth form and four years of undergraduate study at university--although there are many complaints (perhaps justified) that the standard of sixth form A-level study has become weaker today. There is less problem solving, fewer open-ended questions and more directed solutions, multiple-choice and continuous assessment.

author: Kremmen
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2013, 07:15:01 am
content: Quote from: Bored@Work on February 17, 2013, 03:54:01 pmWhile it is true that in Finland we carry this title "diploma engineer", you should understand that really, it is a regular degree and not a diploma. It translates directly as Master of Engineering. Those carrying the title are graduates of a Technical University just like elsewhere. The MEng graduation requires 300 ECTS according to the current European Credit system, and usually takes some 5-6 years to complete.This title comes from Germany originally. Finland has very long cultural and scientific ties to Germany witnessed e.g. by the fact that almost all of us are followers of Martin Luther, i.e. protestants. In the 19th and early 20th centuries (and today still), Germany was the paragon of technology and engineering so what more natural than to emulate the best.

author: Bored@Work
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2013, 03:23:14 pm
content: Quote from: Kremmen on February 18, 2013, 07:15:01 amThat's what I wanted to say. In some countries, having a "diploma" in your title could mean you have the highest, and not the lowest enginering qualification. I remember that in some countries they even call the piece of paper certifying that you have that high qualification "diploma" - meaning these people have a diploma to prove they have a degree ...It is actually the ECTS point system, a result of the Bologna process, that makes the degrees somewhat comparable in the EU. Not the name or title.

author: gregariz
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2013, 09:02:24 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on February 17, 2013, 06:25:10 pmMy understanding is that this IS the reason that the BEng/BSc was downgraded to Incorporated status. Most of the world runs a K-12 system of education. The UK A-level pathway is a K-13 system so 1 of those years was said to contribute to the 3 year BSc, essentially making a 4 year degree. That argument was always a little strenuous to make (that a Grammer/Comprehensive could provide year 1 of uni), although in my opinion a 3 year UK BSc is often superior in content to the US 4 year BSEE simply because of the higher technical content that exists because there is no liberal arts requirement. The liberal arts requirements relegate many US programs to second rate simply because it sucks content/technical time. However, studies at Masters and PhD's generally take longer in the US so in general I think US grad programs are on par with grad programs of the rest of the world.The traditional european 'engineers degree' (Dipl Ing) has long been considered one of the best and is usually regarded as being somewhere between a bachelors and masters degree. This is not to be confused with the US 'engineers degree' (the EE) which is generally done after a Masters and is considered as a practical alternative to a research degree. ie somewhere between a masters and a PhD.With regards to the US use of the word 'Diploma' my understanding is that its use in the US is that its a common-speech term to identify any piece of paper you get from a school/university/other place of learning. ie people say High School Diploma / College Diploma. It just means high school certificate or university degree. I know of no formal 'diplomas' being offered in anything in the US. The system of of 2 year courses in the US are usually referred to as Associate Degrees. (ie Associates in Science - AS, Associates in Arts - AA). There are no Diploma's of Science/Engineering here. There are also no Graduate Certificates / Graduate Diplomas / postGraduate Certificates / postGraduate Diplomas, except in perhaps a few small cases. Its Masters or nothing. There are many introductory certificates being offered at the Community college level, that people may use as credits towards and Associates Degree.To the OP: you've been thinking about the courses for a long time. My suggestion was to forget the AS as you already had a basic certificate. Jump straight to the BS and get it out of the way or do it part time while working. I did the stepping stone pathway you seem to be doing and it was a good education but it will mean you will be in school longer because your credits NEVER transfer cleanly. ex. if you spend 1 year doing a certificate and then another 2 years doing a AS you've spent 3 years. You'll need to spend another 2 years at least to jump to a BSEET. Thats 5+ years for a 4 year course generally considered inferior to a 4 year BSEE. By the time you finish the AS you could have been in a place where you need only 1 more year to finish the BSEE.The other aspect is cost. I hope you don't pay much for the AS. I have a technician who was going to a private university in the US (something like DeVry). It cost a fortune for same piece of paper that he could of gotten at Community college for less than 1/5th the price. He's still paying it off. BTW places like DeVry / Phoenix etc etc have tragic reputations as Diploma mills. I generally view their courses as significantly inferior to your local State University or Community College. Local Community colleges generally also have good transfer agreements through to the local State University. On top of the the local State Universities also take the same view so admission to graduate programs for people from DeVry or Phoenix can be difficult. States never hire DeVry / Phoenix's to teach anything.