Old'ish vs New'ish test equipment - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: Finderbinder
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2023, 09:02:25 pm
content: Is there a serious reason to pack valuable space with a high level but bulky and heavy old benchtop test equipment (like 90' HP, Agilent, Keithley and so on)?Besides that, old equipment have a less informative displays, consumes more electricity, is less compatible with nowadays technologies.Finally mentally it makes you feel stuck in the pastOr... I am wrong?

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2023, 09:11:35 pm
content: Quote from: Finderbinder on February 04, 2023, 09:02:25 pmYou are not.Very few of the old classics can't be well smacked by the better Asian stuff and it's wise to have double up of the old classics to keep them going.Very soon one runs out of space.....Been there done that and got them out of my system.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2023, 09:30:51 pm
content: Quote from: Finderbinder on February 04, 2023, 09:02:25 pmIt kinda sorta depends on what you are doing and what equipment you are talking about....

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2023, 09:46:24 pm
content: Quote from: Finderbinder on February 04, 2023, 09:02:25 pmYes, you are right. Repeat: no you are wrong.It all depends on your objectives and constraints - and without clearly articulating those your question has no simple answer.If you can afford (money, timescale, reliability, bugfixes) to buyeverythingyou need new, then that is a good option.If you are already familiar with a working and adequate piece of equipment, then not buying something else is a good option.If you can't afford everything new, then buying old working equipment can be a good option.If you sell modern Asian test equipment as a business, then persuading others to buy new Asian test equipment makes sense. (No names, no pack drill) But any such person trying to persuade other people that old equipment is inappropriate because it is old is, to be charitable, being disingenuous.Understanding equipment old or new, and learning how to use it corrrectly and to good purpose is something allengineersshould know how to do. Technicians may not need that skill, and may simply have to do as they are told, without needing to understand. Amateurs and hobbyists can enjoy settling with equipment.So, which category fits you?

author: Finderbinder
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2023, 10:18:15 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on February 04, 2023, 09:46:24 pmMaybe new Chinese equipment, but 5-10 years old branded ones (compare to 30 years old stuff).My job is to repair electronics, mainly TVs, but other consumer stuff too. Indeed I don't badly need any serious equipment to get job done, but as a techie a like to use one or another.BTW I didn't miss a thermal camera in electronics repair, but when I got one and used, I can't imagine not having itbdunham7 asked:"It kinda sorta depends on what you are doing and what equipment you are talking about...."I have in mind rack mountable cased equipment - famous 3458A, power supplies, electronic loads, signal generators, LCR meters...

author: switchabl
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2023, 11:02:28 pm
content: Quote from: Finderbinder on February 04, 2023, 09:02:25 pmI avoid the old, boat-anchor CRT stuff for various reasons, most importantly I don't have the space. But the 90s (and 00s) equipment you mention usually isn't so bad in that respect. I guess in the end it comes down to budget?Now in some cases you can get a competitively priced instrument from China and that may or may not be a good alternative for you (nope, not going there). But look up the price of a new- RF signal generator- spectrum analyzer > 3 GHz- oscilloscope > 500 MHz- frequency counter- power meter- SMU...from any brand.E.g. I have an old E4418A power meter that doesn't have a nice modern UI (it actually has a graphical LCD and it is terrible). But it works fine and it probably cost me around 200€ (sans power sensors) vs. 7000€ for a shiny new N1913A that basically does the same thing. So until I win the lottery, I'm indeed stuck in the past with old Agilent, Keithley, R&S etc. equipment at home. I don't mind, I think it's amazing what you can get these days without spending a fortune (new or used).

author: DaJMasta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2023, 11:08:51 pm
content: I don't have much 'vintage' stuff on my bench because it's generally bigger, heavier, less efficient, less featured, etc., but there are good reasons to keep the older stuff, especially as a hobbyist. Part of it is the idea of restoring older equipment - both for the equipment and for the experience of doing it yourself - is an appealing one, and especially with the tendency towards publishing less and less service information, is often easier to actually do with older equipment. Then usually, hobby usage is not pushing the limits of measurement 20-50 years ago, so older gear is up for the task, so if you can get it for a cheaper price than modern stuff, you can either save money or get more equipment (and we all know it's usually the latter). Then for some applications, there are actually fewer dedicated options among new equipment - not because new techniques can't do it, but because it's been rolled in as a software option to something else and the demand for the task has gone down - sometimes having a dedicated meter to tell you the thing you want is easier/simpler/cheaper than finding a modern instrument that happens to have the option you need for that measurement.Then you get to build quality, and while test gear is generally built to a more lasting standard than consumer gear, getting higher end older gear for a similar price to the lower end new gear often has a better longevity proposition - maybe it needs work now that the new won't, but it's often over-engineered to a degree deemed unnecessary in more modern, mid to low end gear, which pays dividends in long term stability, repairability, durability, or just ease of use (though I am all for manufacturers actually paying attention to UI innovations from others and not just throwing something 'functional' in there). There's also the fact that a lot of hobbyists are people who have gotten to the point in their life where they have more disposable income and time on their hands, and they remember working with (or lusting after) equipment that's dated by today's expectations. If it's something you always wanted or something you're already familiar with using, those are both good reasons to go with the older gear over the new.Of course, then there's also the value of systems integration and monitoring through more modern interfaces, the ability to find replacement parts, the extra features, and especially, the built in analysis options found on more modern stuff thanks to the ubiquitous nature of memory and processing power now - reasons for me to avoid a lot of stuff pre mid-90s or so for my own use, but there's a reasonable argument to be made for working on and with older equipment.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2023, 11:11:04 pm
content: Quote from: Finderbinder on February 04, 2023, 10:18:15 pm5-10 years old equipment from an A-brand wins hands down in my experience. There is a lot of value in pedigree; knowing how to build test equipment so it actually works as intended without nasty surprises. Since I got an ethernet GPIB adapter, not having a USB port for screendumps on older equipment is no longer a problem.

author: Electro Detective
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2023, 01:31:10 am
content: Quote from: Finderbinder on February 04, 2023, 10:18:15 pmThe one time where there can't be too much debate on a piece of troubleshooting gear like a thermal camera/imager, that's a must buy for me (SOON)and save bundles of cash by just using all the other operational test equipment, be it oldish or last years newish, to compensate for the purchase.i.e. if I had to choose one item to blow dough on and celebrate 'new toy day'that will most likely pay for itself on a handful of PITA diagnose tasks, it would have to be a thermal camera/imager at under $1000,from a local seller and with boatloads of warranty

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2023, 04:46:06 am
content: Quote from: Finderbinder on February 04, 2023, 10:18:15 pmSome of those old 'boat anchors' will have capabilties that are unaffordable for a hobbyist or even a TV repairman (actually I'm pretty sure as a hobbyist I can afford far more than could be justified for TV repair).Sure the 3458A is large, but what would you use in its place?Modern power supplies might seem nicer, but older models may be more durable or in some cases have features like 4-quadrant safe operation that those nice new Chinese models don't.Once you get into things like SMUs, electronic loads and bench LCR meters, I'd say if you can afford new, go for it. However, I don't really get your statement about 'compatibility with today's technologies' unless you are talking about device communications like GPIB and floppy drives vs USB ports.

author: Finderbinder
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2023, 08:41:32 am
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on February 05, 2023, 04:46:06 amExactly. Old communications are useless today. Informative displays are also big advantage of modern equipment (you can see some related parameters at once, no need to fiddle around).

author: alm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2023, 09:19:10 am
content: Quote from: Finderbinder on February 05, 2023, 08:41:32 amYou're right for consumer equipment, like a camera with Firewire or a parallel port ZIP drive. Test equipment is unique in that the ubiquitous legacy interface GPIB/HPIB/IEEE488 is still well supported, in software and hardware, by both commercial offerings and hobbyist offerings. For example there's an Arduino sketch. You can easily hook up a GPIB instrument to ethernet using VXI-11 and it will be transparently supported by VISA. I'd argue this is easier than networking an USBTMC-only instrument.The only thing missing is a buggy Windows application to control it. But there are alternatives like Test Controller.

author: AVGresponding
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2023, 09:51:19 am
content: I paid less than £200 (shipped!) for my 1GHz Tek 784C. Good luck finding a new 1 GHz scope for that money... Likewise all the rest of my TE, including Fluke, Keithley, HPAK DMMs, both bench and handheld, sig gens, power supplies etc. As has been mentioned, GPIB and variants are still well supported, and thosedon'ttry to phone home when you plug them into your network...Even if I won the lottery I wouldn't fill a lab with brand new gear, either from the old names or the new ones, but that suits my use case. Yours is different, so you should choose what gear suits it best. When you're using it in a business, you want good, fast warranty support, since down-time is costing you money.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2023, 09:53:47 am
content: Quote from: Electro Detective on February 05, 2023, 01:31:10 amI have a Flir C2 that works fine for troubleshooting. Bought it with a decent discount from Toploser but even at full price it is well worth the money. I have found many problems with it in minutes instead of hours.

author: AFTORF
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2023, 12:58:11 pm
content: In RF and microwave, old test equipement are cheaper, easy to repair (many with discrete components without SMD) and real complete service manuals are available on the Web.

author: precaud
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2023, 03:15:34 pm
content: For me it comes down to capabilities and budget.Find me a new Chinese swept VNA/FRA with isolated inputs, built-in splitter, with more than two input ranges.Find me a new Chinese variable frequency LCR/LCZ meter with that can measure the impedance of in-circuit DC sources up to +-40V.AFAIK, they don't exist.

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2023, 03:27:49 pm
content: Quote from: AVGresponding on February 05, 2023, 09:51:19 amKeysight I/O Libraries do.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2023, 03:59:15 pm
content: Quote from: Finderbinder on February 05, 2023, 08:41:32 amCan you be specific, as in examples? Floppies have faded for sure, but I have "older" equipment that uses things like GPIB, RS232 and CF cards. Some of those give me capabilities that otherwise would be wildly unaffordable. And dealing with those old systems takes an extra step, but once you are set up it just works. As a bonus, some of that old equipment is easier and faster to operate--2 second boot times and 1 button push for any function, things like that.

author: mendip_discovery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2023, 06:13:00 pm
content: In some cases, the new kit is made by people who interpret the things made by greybeards but with the added issue of sales droids who ask for daft stuff like touch screens and the purchasing department trying to get the price down. So new gear isn't always as good.Old gear suffers from age etc but some of it is just affordable.Also, it is much like the desire for people to own vintage vehicles, the way they work is part of the fun/challenge of owning them.

author: 0culus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2023, 06:21:31 pm
content: O-scopes? Sure, why not. At the other end of the expense spectrum, how about a microwave network analyzer covering 26.5 GHz? Considering a NEW one likely costs at least twice what my house did, I'll stick with my 8510C...not to mention the far east cheap brands don't even offer something in that space AFAIK.I would also note that 40 and 50 GHz capable test sets for the 8510 are getting hard to find because small shops with low budgets are buying them up to get in on the 5G FR2 bandwagon without blowing a few million yankee bux.

author: switchabl
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2023, 06:43:13 pm
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on February 05, 2023, 03:59:15 pmTo be fair, that period (90s, and also early 00s) has also produced PC-based test equipment that took 15 minutes to boot (I'm not even exaggerating) and was basically unusable without a mouse. The situation has certainly improved with faster PCs and touchscreen UIs these days.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2023, 06:44:44 pm
content: Quote from: 0culus on February 05, 2023, 06:21:31 pm8.5 GHz 4 port no problem....have one but not sure if I'll splash out on the 26.5 GHz one coming soon.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2023, 06:49:05 pm
content: It totally depends on what you're doing and what your budget is. I like old high end gear, it's so nicely built, it feels good to use, I enjoy collecting it and tinkering with it, there's something I just really dislike about cheap Chinese equipment, it's fine for hobby use but I don't find it to be a joy to own or use. I have a 1GHz 4 channel CRT based scope, it's bulky and heavy but it was affordable, about the price of a modern 200MHz scope from one of the cheap brands. There is no way I could justify purchase of a modern replacement with comparable performance. Space is limited but not *that* tight for me and being a hobbyist collecting and playing with the old gear is a hobby in itself, it doesn't have to pay the bills.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2023, 06:56:47 pm
content: Quote from: mendip_discovery on February 05, 2023, 06:13:00 pmYou'd never know until you spend some time with it.There is much UI benefit from having a mouse capable UI and touch screens are only a simple progression of that where if you really don't like them or need them you can turn it to OFF and use a mouse.Now quite used to them, for fastest slickest UI performance I now use all 3 UI inputs, front panel, mouse and touch.YMMVQuoteCertainly, however when their reliability impacts on the pursuit of your electronics hobby something has to give where now after not using a CRO for nearing 15 years you are welcome to one as one will never grace my bench again. Last year I moved 4 boat anchors onto members here to return some valuable shed shelf space.

author: Tomorokoshi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2023, 06:59:10 pm
content: Quote from: precaud on February 05, 2023, 03:15:34 pmYes, I'm quite fond of my HP 4194A.

author: AVGresponding
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2023, 07:53:12 pm
content: Quote from: Bud on February 05, 2023, 03:27:49 pmYes but that's the Keyshite software on the PC, not the device itself. If you use generic GPIB software, that doesn't happen.

author: Finderbinder
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2023, 09:05:45 pm
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on February 05, 2023, 03:59:15 pmOk, CF is acceptable. I didn't deal with GPIB so far so can't comment, maybe you are right. BTW are GPIB and HPIB compatible or are they separate standards?As other person mentioned, there were hi end units based on PC (internally). Surely they would be appealing devices if not obsolete PC part. Or if PC part would be upgradeableLooks like an easy task (as with most PSs) but...old horse refuses to run

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2023, 09:10:14 pm
content: Floppy disks still work fine, I use them with my scopes and logic analyzer, I have a USB floppy drive to transfer the data to a PC.I never liked PC based test gear in the first place but you can still use it the same as always, running the original OS and software that it came with.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2023, 10:09:03 pm
content: Quote from: Finderbinder on February 05, 2023, 09:05:45 pmHPIB = Hewlett Packard Interface Bus.That was so successful other manufacturers adopted it and it became an IEEE standard, number 488, often referred to as the General Purpose Interface Bus. To put it simplistically, it is the PHY and MAC and IP layers.Effectively GPIB = HPIB = IEEE488.On top of that is SCPI, a set of commands for getting instruments to do something.FFI, use google.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2023, 10:12:55 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on February 05, 2023, 09:10:14 pmVery often the drives no longer work. Even my USB floppy drive has failed, the only one I have is a MAC one. And 1.44MB is pretty limiting...

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2023, 10:16:01 pm
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on February 05, 2023, 10:12:55 pmI ought to check whether my 8" drive still works : )The capacity limitation matched what people used them for. Of necessity

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2023, 10:17:49 pm
content: I've never had one fail and they're still plentiful and easy to find. 1.44MB is limiting by modern standards but it's what these instruments were designed around at the time so it works fine for that. A disk will hold a few dozen screen captures.You can get USB adapters to replace the floppy drive for those that prefer, but I don't mind using the floppies.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2023, 10:18:32 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on February 05, 2023, 09:10:14 pmYet with cheap modern processors, RAM and SSD there's potential for really modern PC based gear to provide really fast boot times.Modern PC's with an i5 or better can easy boot in 15s and no doubt much faster with a trimmed down OS.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2023, 10:18:59 pm
content: Quote from: Finderbinder on February 05, 2023, 09:05:45 pmThere are cases where you can upgrade the PC part and still run the device, or update the display from CRT to LCD. However, other than HDD upgrades, you are usually better off just leaving them alone running their original operating system. DOS-based devices generally work great, early Windows versions can be annoying because of modern ideas about what acceptable boot times are.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2023, 10:20:38 pm
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on February 05, 2023, 10:12:55 pmSame here. IIRC I have tried 2 USB disk drives. One didn't work out of the box and the next one kind of works but often you need to format the disk in the drive on the test equipment to get the tracks in the proper position on the disk. But even then the drives in the test equipment can also be flaky. A disk-to-USB unit also turned out to be a turd.Nowadays I'm using an ethernet GPIB adapter and some Python scripting. Even though the Python scripting takes a bit of work to setup, it is ready to go and works right out of the box every time.Quote from: bdunham7 on February 05, 2023, 10:18:59 pmAgreed. Upgrading to the fastest processor and most memory the existing motherboard supports AND adding an SSD is the best course of action. Upgrading the motherboard and/or OS (which is more likely to be a downgrade) is asking for trouble. More often than not, you'll need special drivers. Some test equipment software doesn't even like multi-core / hyperthreading CPUs.But this doesn't mean you can't get healthy speed upgrades. At some point I replaced a 468DX2 with a Pentium1 Overdrive that fitted in the same socket (socket 7 IIRC). That made the system fly because it did a lot of floating point calculations which is exactly what a Pentium is way better at than the regular 486.

author: alm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2023, 10:40:18 pm
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on February 05, 2023, 10:12:55 pmI've started replacing floppy drives in instruments by Gotek floppy emulators (can be found on AliExpress / eBay / Amazon) withFlashFloppy firmware. That allows you to use an 1.44 MB floppy image on a USB memory stick while still looking like a floppy drive to the instrument. Multiple 1.44 MB images if you need more space. They can be found for $25.

author: Ground_Loop
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2023, 12:26:25 am
content: Old Iron is hard to beat. And from what I've seen, no one has come close to the display quality of the TDS 5xx/7xx color shutter display.

author: precaud
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2023, 12:45:30 am
content: How do you kep it so neat? I'm jealous.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2023, 01:50:27 am
content: Quote from: Ground_Loop on February 06, 2023, 12:26:25 amThe NuColor displays are fantastic, that was a significant part of the reason I bought my scope that has one. Nice sharp colorful display with no shadow mask.

author: 0culus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2023, 03:47:09 am
content: Quote from: tautech on February 05, 2023, 06:44:44 pmYah, and that box won't be anything like affordable to the average hobby person either, even if it is a fraction of the cost of a PNA-X (which it basically looks like a rip off of).So, it will probably cost as much as a nice car, vs a nice house. Still liking my 8510C better.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2023, 04:12:57 am
content: Yup. My 4.5 GHz 4 port SNA5004A (now 8.5 GHz) was bad enough at nearly $14k and its big bro $24 so that beast will certainly be a good deal more plus the darn test set more still.Even for a little guy like me it starts getting outta reach.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2023, 10:21:45 am
content: Quote from: james_s on February 06, 2023, 01:50:27 amUnles you can't stand the flickering of the display... The image is sharp with super contrast but I can't work with the NuColor displays. Always swapped them for TFT.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2023, 10:46:42 am
content: Quote from: mendip_discovery on February 05, 2023, 06:13:00 pmSpoken like a true curmudgeon.Do you own a smart phone? Do you find the user interface "too modern"? What do you suggest as input instead of a touch screen?

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2023, 12:46:15 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on February 06, 2023, 10:46:42 amNo; a smart phone would be useless as I am deaf.As for GUIs, I do hate the "modern" flat GUIs since they giveno indication of what is a clickable link and what is a graphics designer's idea of "pretty"no indication of state. For example, if you see a black rectangle with white characters "ON", is that an indication that it is already on and/or that you can click it to turn something on? Answer: it varies depending on the GUI designerAll of those problems were solved in the late 80s by, of all companies, HP with the Motif "3D" widgets. They were a significant improvement over the earlier "flat" GUIs, and were rapidly and universally adopted.Shame web weenies have forgotten history.

author: Ground_Loop
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2023, 12:59:04 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on February 06, 2023, 10:21:45 amI have a 584D (upgraded to 784D) with a TFT. I don't even turn it on any more. It's been relegated to parts mule if ever needed.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2023, 01:30:28 pm
content: Quote from: Finderbinder on February 04, 2023, 10:18:15 pmSurprised with the disposable products like TVs and the high cost of repairs, that making a living this way would be an option. Seems like if the repair required more than a very basic meter and possibly a scope, it would be ready for scrap. An hour of service time may be half the price of a new TV.So, in your case, I tend to agree with you. You lost me when you brought up an 8.5 digit meter. There is certainly uses for it but it's not for TV service.

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2023, 01:45:43 pm
content: Quote from: Finderbinder on February 04, 2023, 09:02:25 pmIt's not a simple thing to answer (of course right?).You say "bulky and heavy old benchtop test equipment (like 90' HP, Agilent, Keithley and so on)". well it's not all "bulky / heavy" stuff. 90's test equipment isn't all like that. In fact some of it is the same size as much modern stuff. In the pic you see two 90's hp kit alongside a very new Siglent scope (SDS2202X-E). The hp kit is an hp 5385A 1 GHz frequency counter, and an hp 437B power meter. The older stuff works fine and isn't expensive compared to brand new equipment of the same type, isn't bulky, and doesn't use megawatts of power.However, an older CRO of that era would be bulky (depth) and use a lot more power, and for the price point, wouldn't have the bandwidth of the SDS2202X-E (opened to 400 MHz). So you see these different generations of equipment alongside one another.In the second pic you see two units of the bulky / heavy class of which you speak. The Agilent 8648A RF generator cannot be replaced with a new item of the same caliber of design for the same money. You'd have to spend a whole lot more for brand new so I make room for that. Below it is an hp 5334B frequency counter. It can be replaced with a smaller unit (which I already showed). However, some of these things are items I used in my career and I choose to have them out for sentimental reasons (but they do work very well).

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2023, 01:54:19 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on February 06, 2023, 12:46:15 pmSmartphones areperfectfor deaf people. You can do text messages with them...Quote from: tggzzz on February 06, 2023, 12:46:15 pmI agree with that but I don't see what it has to do with touch screens. My Windows laptop is touch screen and I can't imagine going back to non-touch/trackpad.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2023, 02:24:40 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on February 06, 2023, 01:54:19 pmI send/receive text messages with my phone.If you give people/companies a phone number, they tend to presume they can contact you on the phone. That's perfectly reasonable, of course.QuoteYou asked about a 'user interface  "too modern"':pixels are part of the user interfacemost graphical user interfaces aren't touchThe only good user interfaces where touch is important are safety critical, e.g. nuke power plant controls and aircraft controls. There the touch gives you a vital clue as to whether you are about to operate the right control

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2023, 02:31:11 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on February 06, 2023, 02:24:40 pmYou're missing out on sending/receiving photos?

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2023, 02:35:52 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on February 06, 2023, 02:31:11 pmNo, not in the slightest.(My phonecouldsend/receive photos, but they would be too crappy. I still have £10 data credit available, even though I bought it a couple of years ago).

author: Njk
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2023, 03:45:44 pm
content: It's always good to keep using the existing equipment for as long as possible. In that way, you can reduce the demand for new ones. Not much, but still. So less resources and energy will be wasted for mass manufacturing of new toys.

author: chilternview
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2023, 05:50:43 pm
content: Quote from: Finderbinder on February 04, 2023, 09:02:25 pmWell, I haven't seen a modern version of my trusty HP4145B that either (a) I can afford or (b) is even available from those Chinese vendors. Yes its large and the user interface is very 80's but it does the job and nothing seems to come close.

author: Finderbinder
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2023, 09:29:49 pm
content: Quote from: xrunner on February 06, 2023, 01:45:43 pmOk, I have to agree, if you can stack units nicely on each other at least it looks neat and visually takes less spaceBut when all units are of various dimensions that looks like a bunch of crapIs it possible/easy to choose a needed/wanted equipment with identical dimensions (mostly width, and some depth)?

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2023, 09:42:12 pm
content: Quote from: Finderbinder on February 06, 2023, 09:29:49 pmYep, they're called Rack Mount and some equipment is only available in a RM format and others you can get bracketing for rack mount installation.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2023, 10:05:57 pm
content: Quote from: Finderbinder on February 06, 2023, 09:29:49 pmThat can be a problem with newer equipment, where manufacturers have "incompatible" cases that don't stack well.Older equipment tends to be bigger, and have standard widths (e.g. 19" ) and standard heights (1U, 2U,3U, etc)Racks to contain such equipment is widely available. Not so with "random" small modern equipment.

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2023, 10:18:57 pm
content: Quote from: Finderbinder on February 06, 2023, 09:29:49 pmThanks.QuoteFor the older stuff I was referring to, such as hp, you can choose other types of gear that do various functions, that stack together neatly. For example in the pictures I have a 3457A DMM, which could fit in a 19" rack. Then on top we have two smaller units that are half the distance across - a 5384A freq. counter and a 3468B DMM. All these are two rack units in height (1.75"). But if you do not rack mount them they have feet which match the notches on top of the units, and can allow stacking without slipping off.The modern stuff of various manufacturers, which has various designs of rubber bumpers and other such feet as their designers favored for one reason or another, is not really standardized to sit well with other makes. While they may stack up within the same manufacturers line of kit, there is no guarantee it will sit well on top of another different manufacturer's line. Such is life. I can't really lock myself into only one manufacturer just because I want it all to stack up nicely. But given all that, it's possible to do a decent job if you try.

author: 0culus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2023, 04:15:32 am
content: Quote from: chilternview on February 06, 2023, 05:50:43 pmLove mine too...you can do a lot of interesting analysis with it that is difficult with a traditional curve tracer.Keysight still offers something in the vein of the 4145/4155/4156 though:https://www.keysight.com/us/en/products/parameter-device-analyzers-curve-tracer/precision-current-voltage-analyzers/b1500a-semiconductor-device-parameter-analyzer.htmlI have a feeling the price is also "if you have to ask, you can't afford one".

author: chilternview
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2023, 05:15:22 pm
content: Quote from: 0culus on February 10, 2023, 04:15:32 amThere is a secondhand B1500A on eBay for £51000 - goodness knows how much a new one is.

author: wd5jfr
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 12, 2023, 01:33:27 am
content: Which thermal camera did you buy and what are the pros & cons of your model. I'd like to get one for general use for finding what's hot and whatever else it can do.ThanksHank

author: montecri
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: February 12, 2023, 02:57:28 pm
content: Today you can find floppy drive emulators. They are a drop-in replacement for the real thing but take thumb drives or SD Cards as the read/write medium.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 12, 2023, 07:11:58 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on February 06, 2023, 02:24:40 pmAs a deaf person I would be lost without my smart phone. There is, of course, the text but 'smart' doesn't have any bearing whatsoever on one's hearing. You don't need to be able to hear to view pdfs, do email, lookup the weather, etc.However, if you have an issue with companies calling you on your phone (or you needing to phone out), you should look intoBT Relaywhich essentially answers your phone (or makes your calls) for you. Some hearing person acts as a MitM and you choose whether to type and listen, read and talk, or type and read - the MitM does the rest.I use this on my PC but don't give out the redirect number (it's an additional number you plonk in front of you phone's normal number). Instead, my phone redirects incoming calls and an app on the PC then takes it from there.You can, of course, do it all on the phone: talk while reading the translation the MitM supplies, but since I prefer to type (speech isn't too hot) doing it all on the phone is too unwieldy for me.BT Relay also works with landlines, of course, if anyone still has one.Edit: another smart thing I like is the Google translate stuff that does voice to text for me when faced with someone. Also I have a spectrum analyzer which I use to gain access to intercom-controlled places. I can tell when someone is speaking (though not what they are saying) and thus know when to say my bit. I don't think non-smart phones would do those very well.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 12, 2023, 07:41:12 pm
content: Thanks for that most entertaining "edit"Superb hack!I agree with you about the other points, but I'll argue that isn't a pbone, it is a small screen computer with a fast modem. To me phone==voice.I've never tried BT Relay or other mitm mechanisms, since I can hear just about adequately with a normal phone.I don't know how an mitm mechanism would work with a half hour wait for a company to get around to bothering with this valued customer.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 12, 2023, 07:57:00 pm
content: The Relay people are very good. Generally they keep out of the way and Just Do It. Periodically they'll say still waiting or something, and once I got into having a decent chat with one while we were waiting (you don't have to, and I think it's the norm not to). A couple of times I've suggested we give up in case they have more important calls to handle, but they just say the current call is the important one and they're happy to stay online for as long as it takes. It's a great service, and completely free (except you pay for the call redirect).

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 12, 2023, 08:11:36 pm
content: OK, thanks. I'll file that user experience and review away for future use.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 12, 2023, 08:43:18 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on February 12, 2023, 07:41:12 pmThe whole phone feature is rather diminished where it comes to a smartphone. A smartphone is a very usefull universal tool though. I'm using it for all kinds of purposes (except phone calls). This weekend I used mine during some home improvement work to take pictures / videos of things I could not take a look at any other way. Along the project I found a leaky T joint in a water pipe by coincidence. I had to take the joint apart and with my 'phone' I could check whether I had cleaned the copper surfaces well enough so I could resolder the joint again. I succeeded but had to hold all tools at an arm's length to reach the joint.

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 12, 2023, 09:00:44 pm
content: Quote from: wd5jfr on February 12, 2023, 01:33:27 amThis was asked and answered many times in Thermal Imaging subforum of EEVBlog. You may want to check posts there.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 12, 2023, 09:37:09 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on February 12, 2023, 08:43:18 pmAgreed.I'm typing this on a small Amazon Fire tablet, which is a smartphone minus the phone and only Wi-Fi connectivity. Yes, they are useful gadgets - in addition to a phone. However I use my Canon PowerShot G16 since it focusses down to a couple of cm.The neutered Amazon app store doesn't have the BTRelay app but it probably could be sideloaded. But I don't know whether it would work without a phone connection.I'm still in two minds whetherautokorruptautocorrect would be a help or hindrance.Basically I hate soft keyboards. I hated letter-shift-figure shift teleprinter keyboards in the early 70s, and was delighted to be able to swap to hunting and pecking on a real ASR33 keyboard.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 13, 2023, 10:45:47 am
content: Quote from: tggzzz on February 12, 2023, 09:37:09 pmThe better smartphones can also do that. Sometimes I use mine as a magnifier.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 13, 2023, 07:38:13 pm
content: My iPhone SE from 2016 does, I occasionally use it for the same thing, taking pictures of small SMT components so I can read the numbers on them. It has a much better camera than the best standalone digital camera I own, which to be fair is older.