Eu kettle regulations video - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Telonic
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: August 25, 2015, 03:17:33 pm
content: Moderator note: I will leave this in place given the ensuing discussion but would otherwise consider this post/video as spamHi Guys,You probably heard about the EU banning high power vacuum cleaners.We heard a rumour they where going to do the same with kettles, this video proves it won't work!Love to know you opinions.

author: German_EE
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2015, 05:23:27 pm
content: Given the unscientific method that he used to find out when the kettle had boiled a 3% difference in energy consumption is almost down in the noise. The bare minimum requirements to run the experiment again are:1) Confirmation that the water inside the kettles is at room temperature and so are the kettle elements.2) A method of stirring the water inside the kettle so that all water inside is at a uniform temperature.3) A timer that starts at the beginning of the experiment and finishes when the water inside a kettle reaches 100 Degrees C. You then have an accurate reading of when the kettle has boiled.4) Repeat the experiment at least ten times and then take an average of the results.

author: nihilism
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2015, 05:36:51 pm
content: Dosen't affect us. Here in 'straaalia we use wood powered kettles

author: Mechanical Menace
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2015, 05:39:20 pm
content: Quote from: German_EE on August 25, 2015, 05:23:27 pmI'd have to agree with that. Tbh with elements made to the same standard I can't see any reason a larger or smaller kettle would be any less efficient. Now if you need to constantly keep the water hot a bigger kettle filled to capacity would have less heat loss than a smaller one but meh, over filling the kettle is probably the biggest waster of energy anyhows. A maximum minimum fill for kettles would be better than regulating their maximum size and power.

author: DimitriP
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2015, 06:04:43 pm
content: QuoteBanning tea would save even more energy.

author: Mechanical Menace
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2015, 06:23:36 pm
content: Quote from: DimitriP on August 25, 2015, 06:04:43 pmNope, not happening. Even though Brits drink a surprisingly small amount of tea compared to the stereotype* they would use the veto.*Both tea and coffee are at about 2.8kg per person a year, but you get much more cups of coffee out of that weight than you do tea.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2015, 06:36:30 pm
content: Quote from: Mechanical Menace on August 25, 2015, 05:39:20 pmIt does prove though that smaller kettles won't be any more efficient and there's no evidence to suggest they will be.Although the experiment isn't accurate enough to prove this. It is true a lowered power kettle will be less efficient than a higher powered kettle. With a lower powered kettle, there's more time for the heat to be lost into the surroundings. Suppose the power was reduced to just 8W. The kettle would probably never boil because, unless it was very well thermally insulated, it would soon reach a point when the heat loss becomes equal to the power input.To increase the efficiency of a kettle you need to to improve the thermal insulation or you could use a heat pump but it would be expensive and finding one which works efficiently up to boiling would be difficult.

author: firewalker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2015, 07:22:57 pm
content: Same volumes of water will need the same energy to reach a specific temperature independently of the power provided by the kettle. If we assume that the offer of energy via the element is way faster that the water can dissipate energy to the environment for both the kettles, the two numbers should match. I strongly believe that the final numbers is within the statistical error off such a loosely conducted experiment.Alexander.

author: apis
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2015, 07:37:02 pm
content: Yeah, the idea must have been to make people not boil more water than they use. I try to get my mom to measure the amount of water with the cup she's going to use, she always boil two or three times the amount she use. Boiling water takes a lot of energy so reducing this waste might be significant. Not sure a ban is a good idea in this case though. I think the incandescent light ban turned out well, but they could have waited for the LED lamps to mature more and skipped the compact fluorescents. But on the other hand, the EU ban might have been an incentive to get the LED lamps to market quicker?

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2015, 07:39:57 pm
content: Do you have a reference to the proposed legislation?I'd agree about kettles needing to work with a single cup of water but I think capping the wattage is a step backwards in this case, especially as science indicates it will result in poorer efficiency.

author: Delta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2015, 07:42:38 pm
content: Well thank feck for the almighty EU, they know best. What on earth would we do without them? I hope you buy a vacuum cleaner before they get limited to 900W in 2017, or you might have to pay your cleaner an extra hour a week...

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2015, 07:43:11 pm
content: Makes sense that you feel so strongly about this, given how enamored you always seem to be with any legislation that bans anything. You must have been the kid in kindergarten who loved to tattle with glee on anyone doing anything even remotely off-limits.

author: Delta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2015, 08:03:47 pm
content: Quote from: c4757p on August 25, 2015, 07:43:11 pmHe'll change his tune if Brussels tries to legislate against electric beard trimmers...

author: PChi
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2015, 08:25:30 pm
content: I remember seeing a graph of electricity demand many years ago that showed that when the Televison adverts started large numbers went to put on kettles. I am guessing that the real reason that they might want to legislate to ban higher powered kettles is to reduce the power peaks. Modern jug kettles use a flat element at the bottom so can boil small amounts of water.I've been told that UK electricity demand peaked at 99 % electricity capacity last year. If this winter is severe then power cuts are likely.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2015, 08:35:53 pm
content: Quote from: PChi on August 25, 2015, 08:25:30 pmThat would make sense but the law we're talking about here was made by the EU which is the problem. The EU can make whatever laws they like but they are not held accountable to the people. It's very undemocratic. There's a difference between legislation which covers trade and safety standards for products sold to the EU and laws which affect a state's sovereignty.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2015, 09:05:30 pm
content: So for maximum efficiency you need a one cup kettle. As engineers we don't even need an experiment to figure that out. But when you have a guest you will need a two cup kettle. And then when the folks come over for a visit you need a three cup kettle. You couldn't in good conscience use two or three one cup kettles because that would be less efficient.Sounds like the kettle manufacturers will love this. Either you buy three different size kettles, or a single Rube Goldberg monstrosity that can optimize efficiency at multiple quantities. And if you go the three kettle route you need a larger flat to store them. Or maybe you just rent a kettle as required, running down to the local agency to exchange for the size needed today. The energy costs of the larger flat or the complex kettle or the various trips to the rental agency come from a different account so it is all OK.Legislation, even when well intended often has consequences quite different from that desired.

author: Delta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2015, 09:33:12 pm
content: Sounds like an interesting machine, do you have a link to it please?I admit that I did have to look up "pogonophobia", but I certainly do not suffer from that condition. In fact, your extreme offence at my insinuation that you were a pogonoist, leads me to think that you may well be the pogonophobe!

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2015, 09:35:25 pm
content: Quote from: Delta on August 25, 2015, 07:42:38 pmI don't know how old you are, but over the years the vacuum cleaners got more and more power. Old ones got around 750W and current ones are 2200W and even more. Are current high power vacuum cleaners better than old ones? I doubt it, but most people think that more power is better. It's like using a 500W lab PSU for powering a circuit which runs off a AA.

author: Towger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2015, 09:38:43 pm
content: Quote from: nihilism on August 25, 2015, 05:36:51 pmYou'll be a long time waiting till your billy boiled. We use electric 3Kw kettles in this part of the world.

author: Delta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2015, 10:26:18 pm
content: I would say it was more a case of caricaturing than characterising. It's a good one nowadays as it merges the traditional bearded psuedo-liberal lefty with the modern hipster knobhead. Your extreme indignation at my initial throwaway comment is the only reason I have repeated the reference.

author: Mechanical Menace
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2015, 10:40:12 pm
content: Quote from: Towger on August 25, 2015, 09:38:43 pmSo do I and I have a ridiculously low energy consumption for someone in the UK. For places nowhere near as well off as the UK actually too. And I don't really do without tbh.Two things I don't use though are my dishwasher or tumble dryer.TBH I use gay as an insult at times. I don't automatically associate that word with homosexual though. Usage defines meaning hence English evolves easily and (relatively for a language) quickly.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2015, 11:00:53 pm
content: Quote from: nihilism on August 25, 2015, 05:36:51 pmDo you still have those dodgy jug kettles with uninsulated mains elements in the water ?

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2015, 11:13:04 pm
content: Wait, you're now talking about vacuum cleaners which are totally different and much more complex than kettles.It's possible to improve the efficiency of a vacuum cleaner by doing things like replacing the universal motor with a brushless one, using cyclonic filtration, rather than filters and improved aerodynamics.The kettle is just a heating element immersed in water. It takes 4.18kJ of energy to increase the temperature of a litre of water by 1°C. If tap water is 15°C then that's 88.8kJ to boil a 0.25l cup of water. There will be some heat lost to the surroundings which can be reduced by using better thermal insulation. However, reducing the power input will always increase the amount of heat lost and reduce the efficiency, as more heat is being released into the surroundings, as you're waiting for the kettle to boil. This is basic physics.This just proves the EU bureaucrats know nothing about science and engineering and the fact they're making laws which would increase carbon emissions and reduce efficiency of a kettle is a joke.

author: Delta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2015, 11:17:43 pm
content: Quote from: Mechanical Menace on August 25, 2015, 10:40:12 pmWhen I were a lad, gay meant "not very good", as in "Man United are gay", or "homework is gay" etc. Now I believe it has been hijacked by the homosexualist community...

author: Mechanical Menace
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2015, 11:22:06 pm
content: Quote from: Delta on August 25, 2015, 11:17:43 pmQuoteEDIT:https://youtu.be/Xe1a1wHxTyo

author: apis
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2015, 11:40:55 pm
content: I think another problem with the test is that they use the same amount of water when determining efficiency. The big kettle is approximately half full, the volume of water is therefore sphere-ish and thermal losses will be smaller. In the case of the small kettle it will be full and the volume of water will be more elongated, thus it will have larger surface area to total volume and emissions will be larger. There will also be differences in convection currents in the water and so on.I don't really understand why they expected much of a difference in efficiency?Quote from: Towger on August 25, 2015, 09:38:43 pmI like my 3 kW kettle as wellbut you can get huge power with a wood stove, efficiency and emissions are horrible though.Quote from: Hero999 on August 25, 2015, 11:13:04 pmWell, it's not a law is it, it's allegedly something that has been proposed and we don't even have any details of what has been suggested so all this is just loose speculation.If you look at all the bills in your local parliament I'm sure you would have nightmares for a week as well.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2015, 11:46:36 pm
content: If someone boils a kettle twice a day and uses 3kW for 3 minutes, that's a total usage of ~100Wh/day or 37kWh/year.That does seem fairly negligible really. Maybe the focus should be on improving other efficiencies.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2015, 12:55:50 am
content: Wow! 'Idiots', 'dumb fucks', 'stupid', 'morons'....

author: sleemanj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2015, 06:27:28 am
content: What is needed is not less powerful jugs, it's a super mega powerful but very low capacity jug, ideally, no capacity, just flow-through, cold water flow in, boiling water flow out, on demand, without pre-heating.

author: Towger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2015, 07:38:06 am
content: Quote from: sleemanj on August 26, 2015, 06:27:28 amThey exist but never seem to have taken off for domestic use. The main problem is the power required to 'instantly' boil water. Fine is you have 3 phase in your house.There are also small kettles which take about a cup/mug of water and boil it in a few seconds.

author: G7PSK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2015, 07:56:24 am
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on August 26, 2015, 07:53:20 am

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2015, 08:18:40 am
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on August 25, 2015, 06:53:46 pmSo back to topic...I've used a kettle which was designed to only heat up x amount of water. It was like those coffee machines, it heated up the water to 95-100 degrees as the water was going through it. It was perfect to make a cup of tee.I I dont think it is a idiotic idea (I haven't seen the video).Actually it was this one:http://www.reuk.co.uk/Tefal-Quick-Cup-Eco-Kettle.htmActually, I might buy one for myself now that they reminded me to it.Also, for your information, my father bought a vacuum cleaner after the "big vacuum cleaner scandal" and he said it is working much better, even though the wattage on it is less. His previous and current vacuum is both Philips.

author: bookaboo
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2015, 09:00:34 am
content: Quote from: Hero999 on August 25, 2015, 08:35:53 pmSmoothing of peak electricity demand does make sense, they have teams in power stations monitoring TV output so they can be ahead of the curve when popular soap operas go on break. The trend may fall off somewhat with on demand tv but it still exists.As for EU being unaccountable, the eu parliament is elected just like councils, regional assembly and national parliament. I find all to be inefficient and capable of ridiculous decisions. All are equally unaccountable to anyone unless you have sufficient cash to offer a "donation" to a party.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2015, 09:04:31 am
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on August 26, 2015, 07:45:37 amI think you'll find you're the one who started the ad-hominem attacks, just look at your first response to this thread.Quote from: mojo-chan on August 25, 2015, 06:53:46 pm

author: Delta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2015, 11:53:21 am
content: Quote from: Hero999 on August 26, 2015, 09:04:31 amIt's very much a case of the bearded pot calling the high efficiency kettle black...

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 26, 2015, 12:36:35 pm
content: The only real argument for reducing the power of kettles is to spread the load over time and reducing the instant power required by the network. There is of course also the transmission losses which follow a square law so there is a difference, how fast that catches up with losses due to dissipation during heating is going to be another hot debate.As to the original video it's publicity wankery, the experiment is just abouts reasonably controlled and clearly it was a poor excuse to put the companies name on youtube on what was hoped would become a hot video.

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2015, 01:23:43 pm
content: Quote from: Hero999 on August 25, 2015, 11:13:04 pmThe common kettle has the heating element at the bottom, below the water. I haven't seen old style kettles with the heating element inside the kettle (fully immersed in water) for years. Safety vs. efficiency

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2015, 03:32:28 pm
content: Quote from: NANDBlog on August 26, 2015, 08:18:40 amMy ex-girlfriend had a similar kettle. It was very good.However if the EU cap the maximum power rating for kettles then it would be banned. Read the specification.Quote

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2015, 03:41:08 pm
content: We had a similar case where politicians tried to limit the size of soda cups with some 'common good' justification and the courts stroked it down.http://www.nytimes.com/2014/06/27/nyregion/city-loses-final-appeal-on-limiting-sales-of-large-sodas.html

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 26, 2015, 04:40:56 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on August 26, 2015, 04:13:18 pmtime to heat = total power required / instant power availableI tried to build an instant water heater into an automated hand wash unit once but as we had an energy budjet of 3KW we could not use it as even for the slow flow requested and the low temperature required we needed 4KWHeating water is 100% efficient ignoring dissipation and transmission losses.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 26, 2015, 04:41:42 pm
content: Quote from: nihilism on August 25, 2015, 05:36:51 pmcmon at least use a kelly kettle

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2015, 04:44:14 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on August 26, 2015, 04:13:18 pmThe laws of physics are the same the world over. With only 1500W it can't boil water that quickly, at 100% efficiency, it will take about a minute to boil a 250ml cup of water.

author: apis
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2015, 04:57:30 pm
content: Sigh, I've tried to find more info on this and it seems to be rumours based on a research that was ordered by the Commission. So it's not even proposed legislation.Quote from: theweekAs for the vacuum cleaners, what matters is how good they are at removing dirt. You can improve dirt removal efficiency in two ways: improve the design (aerodynamics and so on) or you can simply put a bigger and bigger fan motor in it. The ban is obviously intended to prevent manufacturers from simply putting larger and larger motors in the vacuum cleaners which apparently was the trend. Sounds like a good thing to force manufacturers to improve the design instead. Over 2 kW power for a vacuum cleaner is ridiculous.

author: SL4P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2015, 04:58:43 pm
content: I'm lost for words after watching the test protocol!Impossible to add more than already posted.Edit: Actually I did think of something's to add...I wonder what benefit there would be if there was a radial finned 'heat sink' wrapped around the element - to maximise the transfer of heat into the wafter... rather than the simple curved stainless steel worm that is seen in most kettles?

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2015, 06:00:46 pm
content: My kettle does a single cup in 2 minutes, using 800W of power. Single cup in the microwave oven, and the timer is a single push button. Put cup in, close door, press start and wait till it finishes. As a plus it does tea nicely as well.Popcorn is put the kernels in the bowl, put the cover plate on and press 3 times as it stops. No oil, just add ground pepper to taste.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 26, 2015, 06:14:30 pm
content: Quote from: SL4P on August 26, 2015, 04:58:43 pmHow would this help ? the element would still deliver the same power, it may run slightly cooler but that makes no different to the amount of heat transfered and it would only affect the temperature at the surface of the element that is usually immersed in flowing coolant (water)

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2015, 06:17:13 pm
content: Quote from: SeanB on August 26, 2015, 06:00:46 pmThat's a very inefficient way to heat water. If the microwave has a power rating of 800W, the input power will be nearly double that. Buy a 1600W kettle and boil that cup of water in half the time and use half the energy.

author: Mechanical Menace
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2015, 06:19:47 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on August 26, 2015, 07:53:20 amI think as an adult you should be expected to understand that in English usage defines the word, they can often change meanings many times in one persons lifetime, one wor can have many disparate meanings, and it doesn't matter if you want to limit the definition in your head to what you want it to mean so you can get off on being "outraged," you shouldn't expect it of others or try and dictate your love of being purposely hypersensitive as the only valid standpoint. You enjoy your persecution complex, that's fine. But others are happy to "move with the times" and accept a common 30+ year old usage of the word with no homophobic intent as such.

author: PChi
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2015, 06:27:48 pm
content: Quote from: SL4P on August 26, 2015, 04:58:43 pmIt's a good idea that has been implemented. The worm has been superceeded. Kettles that I have seen in recent years here in the UK have the element bonded to the base of the water container so that it's possible to boil only 1 cup of water.

author: apis
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2015, 06:49:38 pm
content: Quote from: Mechanical Menace on August 26, 2015, 06:19:47 pmAround here we use the word British to mean bigot. Well actually we don't, but I hope you get the point.You may not mean it in a homophobic way but why do you expect others to understand that you don't really mean what you are saying?

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2015, 06:50:45 pm
content: It seems like more insulation might be in order too. I've noticed metal kettles get extremely hot during use - some energy must be lost due to dissipation.

author: rolycat
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2015, 07:16:34 pm
content: Quote from: PChi on August 26, 2015, 06:27:48 pmWhich is why crippling the power of electric kettles is a stupid idea. Mine is rated at 3.1kW and boils a mug of water in around 30 seconds.If I want to boil a mug of water, I pour in a mug of water. Two mugs, twice as much.It's not rocket science, and it doesn't require fancy Japanese hot water dispensers (whicharen't capable of dispensing boiling wateranyway) or intrusive EU legislation to provide boiling water quickly and efficiently.

author: rolycat
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2015, 10:59:44 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on August 26, 2015, 09:37:26 pmYes, 250ml. And it's by no means rare - most kettles with flat elements can do it, although not all have graduations for a single cup.Here are a few that do - the first on the list is Amazon's '#1 best seller':Russell Hobbs 20070Bosch TWK7603GBBosch TWK7601GBPhilips HD4644/00Kenwood JKP210

author: Delta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2015, 11:24:15 pm
content: Ah but but but but, they're just normal kettles, like those awful working class people have! If it's not pretentious and expensive, how can one feel smug enough to save the planet?

author: bookaboo
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2015, 09:11:27 am
content: Im all for saving energy but if I always boil 1 cup more than I need. If you dump all the water out of the kettle you can get the odd flake of limescale (at least here).

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2015, 09:21:13 am
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on August 27, 2015, 09:00:06 amThe power output is probably fixed. The quicker the energy is transferred to the water, the more efficient it will be. Assuming no losses that 300ml of water would boil in 36s, in reality 40s to 45s seems more reasonable.

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2015, 09:35:14 am
content: Quote from: bookaboo on August 27, 2015, 09:11:27 amWhy don't you delime it with some vinegar essence? Cheap and effective. The limescale also decreaes the kettle's efficiency.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2015, 12:27:48 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on August 27, 2015, 09:00:06 amWhat a lovely system you promote. The bureaucrats of the central government outlawing kettle sizes they deem 'not needed'It doesn't surprise me though considering your post history.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2015, 12:57:34 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on August 27, 2015, 12:46:04 pmThis distraction attempt doesn't surprise me either considering your post history.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2015, 03:20:52 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on August 27, 2015, 02:19:01 pmThat's exactly what that law does. It doesn't force anybody to provide kettles that the EU government deems 'needed', as you called it, it bans kettles that they EU governments deem 'unneeded'.Mind your own kettle.

author: Delta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2015, 11:48:31 pm
content: Well praise the the lord for the extemely expensive EU bureaucracy we now have, because before they existed, technology didn't advance at all...

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2015, 12:25:19 am
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on August 27, 2015, 08:24:24 pmIt worked. But what a strange way to operate. If something is needed, it rarely goes unprovided. If it is merely desirable, or needed by a tiny number of individuals it may not be provided. So, on the theory (or fact, depending on your inclination) that Y is needed you outlaw X. Suppliers who used to make X must either go out of business, or supply something else. That something else might be Y, but it might be Z or Q or whatever. Seems an inefficient way to get Y.It seems that if something really is required, and if the market really isn't supplying it (a truly unlikely combination in my experience), you should mandate the desired product. Or tax deviations from the desired product.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2015, 12:47:41 am
content: The idea isn't too bad. Capitalism as a system is really, really good at finding the cheapest solution to a problem. But this is not necessarily the solution which is best for individuals or for everyone else (environmental concerns etc) or even the most optimal solution to a problem.Manufacturers found that people didn't particularly care about the energy usage of the vacuum cleaner - they just wanted the most power and suction available - which sort of leads to an arms-race of ever-increasing energy usage figures. I don't mind regulation or taxation here to encourage manufacturers to improve efficiency and suction without getting into that arms race over motor power.

author: apis
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2015, 01:26:24 am
content: Some interesting topics of economics that might be of interest:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragedy_of_the_commonshttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Externality

author: apis
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2015, 01:41:31 am
content: Quote from: CatalinaWOW on August 28, 2015, 12:25:19 amDefine needed? (And even if you do, that is a difficult statement to prove/disprove). An example of something that would never have been provided by the market is the internet. Is it needed?

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2015, 01:49:56 am
content: Quote from: tom66 on August 25, 2015, 11:46:36 pmlike leiminiating 250 highly paid politician that serve no purpose at all.

author: pickle9000
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2015, 02:01:39 am
content: Quote from: free_electron on August 28, 2015, 01:49:56 amCan we boil them?

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2015, 02:12:01 am
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on August 27, 2015, 08:24:24 pmYou are making things up again Mojo Chan.I didn't say that they are banning *only* 'unneeded' kettles, so banning also 'unneeded' vacuums cleaners doesn't contradict anything.

author: apis
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2015, 02:21:13 am
content: Quote from: zapta on August 28, 2015, 02:12:01 amMight be worth repeating that EU are not banning any kettles. The kettle thing appears to be a controversy fabricated by tabloids. It has not been suggested by any politician in Brussels, it was something mentioned in a research report ordered by the Comission apparently. Kind of pointless to get worked up over IMO.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 28, 2015, 06:51:56 am
content: Quote from: apis on August 28, 2015, 02:21:13 amHence I added the warning note to say that the video should be deemed as spam but pity to break up such a scientific discussion

author: richard.cs
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2015, 07:47:08 am
content: Coming back onto the subject of fast kettles, I understand it is/was possible to buy a 3.5kW kettle in Germany (16A at 220V) which would be about 4.2 kW at 240V in the UK.Does anyone know of one that will boil just one cup? The voltages haven't actually changed since harmonisation but it is possible that you can no longer buy such a kettle as it would be over 16A when run at 230V even though the incoming supply is still 220V in reality.I have once connected a 3kW kettle between phases, it survives 9kW and is super quick but I'm not sure it'd last long term.

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2015, 08:59:37 am
content: Quote from: richard.cs on August 28, 2015, 07:47:08 am10s seems to be feasable. Please seefor more details

author: richard.cs
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2015, 11:10:15 am
content: Quote from: madires on August 28, 2015, 08:59:37 amI'd forgotten about that video. I guess it depends on the element design, some certainly seem capable of lasting rather longer than that. When I did it we made a few cups of tea that day with nothing dramatic happening other than some arcing when the switch opened on boiling.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 28, 2015, 11:52:46 am
content: Quote from: richard.cs on August 28, 2015, 11:10:15 amIf I remember rightly the kettle destroys itself by the end of that video.The other problem with high-power kettles is thermal inertia this makes some very inefficient small quantities of water. Your heating element is now a huge piece of metal which need heating up and then once your water is boiled you still have a heating element and lump of steel full of heat which is why the water continues to bubble furiously as it tries to dissipate the excess heat being dumped into it as steam. I usually turn my kettle off well before it is due to boil and it still boils. What would be ideal is a kettle with a feedback system that doses the power based on the speed the water it heating at so that a minimum amount of heat is left behind in the heating element which is also a waste. Of course flat plate kettles are also prone to damage if they are completely emptied of water right after boiling particularly if they are of poor design. I bought one kettle for £15 from home bargains, it lasted a week. So I went and spent £50 on a kettle and that has lasted me well over a year now and counting.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2015, 03:07:32 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on August 28, 2015, 11:04:11 amWrong again.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2015, 06:29:47 pm
content: You can pretty much be sure that is the ending with all of Photon's videos....... Except for the few where he was showing how he earns a crust fixing laundry equipment. Those are pretty good, a fast worker.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 28, 2015, 06:59:19 pm
content: Quote from: SeanB on August 28, 2015, 06:29:47 pmoh yess how silly of menever worked out what he does.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2015, 07:59:50 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on August 28, 2015, 11:04:11 amTo an extant that's perfectly valid. Car manufactures are forced to make their cars cleaner.It's probably too early to say whether the vacuum cleaner legislation works or not. The idea of not only capping the motor power but specifying decent performance is a good one but whether it actually results in people getting better value for money or not has yet to be seen.As far as kettles are concerned, making sure they can boil they can boil a single cup makes sense but whether reducing the power consumption increases efficiency or not is highly questionable.A more scientific approach would be to use the same kettle and vary the power input by changing the voltage.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 29, 2015, 12:35:36 am
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on August 28, 2015, 11:04:11 amAgree that markets deal poorly with externals. But governments often do poorly when trying to fix that. Rather than obeying a doctrine of minimalism, they feel that they do understand the entire problem and understand a best solution. An example here in the states can be found in ceiling fans with included light fixtures. For energy conservation reasons and also fire safety reasons it is best to limit the total lighting power in these light fixtures to the manufacturers recommendations. The market did not provide a way to make this compulsory (through different socket sizes for different bulb wattages as an example), and apparently there was a significant problem with people doubling or tripling the lighting power in these fixtures. This was back when incandescent lamps ruled. So the government stepped in and mandated power regulators on these fixtures. Now, by law you must install a device which actively limits power to 300 W in ceiling fan light fixtures. This has had two horrible affects. One, the cretins who overloaded their fixtures still do, straining the power limiting box. The attempted overload is reduced because very high power bulbs just don't work, but modest overloading still happens. Second, the power limiting modules have a short life, and there is virtually no replacement market. So now the excess energy consumption of the overloaded lamps is transferred to the manufacture of and installation of new ceiling fans. Just a different externality. And as you say, the manufacturers love it. Instead of selling a new ceiling fan every 15-20 years they have shortened the cycle to 3-5 years. I have personally experienced a couple of these failures and suspect that the overall fire hazard has not been reduced either.Examples like these are why I favor tariffs and other soft limits to simulate external costs. It isn't perfect, but seems to me to work better over all.Of course anyone who subscribes to this blog can deal with lack of replacement power regulators, but we represent a tiny fraction of the market.

author: apis
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 29, 2015, 06:57:36 pm
content: Quote from: CatalinaWOW on August 29, 2015, 12:35:36 amCouldn't they just install fuses?Anyway, there are plenty of examples of bad regulation, that doesn't mean we are better of without any; for the most part regulations are working, you just don't notice them when they work as intended.Even when it's bad and overly bureaucratic it's usually better than no regulation at all. One example is building regulation; it solves a lot of safety, health and environmental issues, but it's a nuisance for anyone who wants to build his/her own house. I find all the rules that prevent me from installing my own electrical wiring in my apartment annoying as hell, at the same time I'm grateful that the guy who lived here before me didn't tamper with the electrical system. Rather than saying all regulation is bad, people should try and improve the laws so it solves the problem it was intended to solve without any negative side effects.People who are arguing for no regulation are essentially arguing for anarcho-capitalism which is a horribly bad idea. There will always be a government and all governments meddle. What is important is to make sure we have as much democratic influence over it as possible and thereby can make it meddle in a way that is good for everyone, not just a tiny elite (as in the past and in totalitarian societies).

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2015, 03:18:21 am
content: Quote from: apis on August 29, 2015, 06:57:36 pmOf course they could. But they were given a golden opportunity to increase cost and design in obsolescence while blaming the government. It is just one of those unforeseen consequences. (And to be fair, the morons of the world would just put a higher amperage fuse in the slot. This may actually be the reason they have chosen the path they did, though I have to believe the first two reasons had some weight in the decision. The power limiter at least requires a fair amount of knowledge to figure out why the lamp isn't working, where the problem is, and what is going on. Weeds out the lower end of the moron range.)

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 30, 2015, 07:54:29 am
content: ever heard what a great universal fuse a 6 inch nail makes ?

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2015, 08:36:14 am
content: Small thermal self resetting thermal breaker would work as well, and the flashing would annoy all other than potheads.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 30, 2015, 08:40:48 am
content: Quote from: SeanB on August 30, 2015, 08:36:14 amcmon the solution can't be cheap, given the chance to blame the government you just have to make the most of it

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2015, 09:04:58 am
content: Those breakers do fail after a few years, so still built in obsolescence, and you can bury it inside the fitting where it would be hard to get to to replace.

author: rolycat
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2015, 09:19:50 am
content: Quote from: Simon on August 30, 2015, 07:54:29 amIs it time to trot out the standard chart again?

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 30, 2015, 09:22:11 am
content: Quote from: rolycat on August 30, 2015, 09:19:50 amOh that is hilariousIs the 350 Amp one the sort that blows up propper after a while and earns the fitter a darwin award ?

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2015, 09:57:51 am
content: Quote from: CatalinaWOW on August 29, 2015, 12:35:36 amI can see that being a problem in the past, when everyone used incandescent lights, but is it so bad now CFL and LED lamps are more widely available? Hasn't some good come out of this by encouraging people to replace incandescent lamps with more efficient alternatives if they want more light?

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 30, 2015, 01:01:05 pm
content: and I've seen it done

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2015, 01:05:25 pm
content: 16A, the multisense fuse indicator. Even the deaf and the blind can tell it has failed or soon will. Anosiacs will only have limited warning though, and will have to do visual checking.

author: GK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2015, 01:10:11 pm
content: Ooh, the Laughing Cow cream cheese portions. I haven't eaten one of those for over 20 years. Wonder if they still make them.......

author: rolycat
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2015, 01:19:55 pm
content: Quote from: SeanB on August 30, 2015, 01:05:25 pmAnosiais the condition of being healthy. Maybe you mean anosmiacs?rolycat - Proudly peddling peeving pedantry since 2012

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2015, 01:51:14 pm
content: CBBTGT, so I got it wrong......Yes, you still get the laughing cow, though I highly doubt it actually could be classed as cheese, more like a salted flavoured cheese substitute. They did have to remove the majority of the tartrazine, E102, so it is not as yellow, and not so likely to make kids hyperactive.

author: Mechanical Menace
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2015, 03:24:14 pm
content: Quote from: apis on August 26, 2015, 06:49:38 pmNah British is the PC term. Calling yourself English is is bigoted*. Welsh and Scottish are fine though, unless you're English (I mean British) and call a Scott Scottish then you're racist...TBH I also find anyone flying a flag makes me instantly think they're racist and jingoistic. I've got to admit I don't know why, I actually hate having a flag instead of the countries name displayed on forums such as this...QuoteHow many definitions of the word "tramp" are there and how do you know which is meant? You see I am actually saying what I mean and the surrounding context would let anyone know who isn't going out of their way to find offenceIt's hardly a new definition and it's hardly only used by straight cisgendered people either.OT: I still think a maximum minimum fill would be a better solution. Being able to boil only one cup should be mandatory by now methinks.*Though I'll admit idiots like the EDL don't help with that.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 30, 2015, 03:35:57 pm
content: a kettle with a PID control system would be ideal for boiling low quantities of water without leaving more heat in the element on boiling than was transfered into the water. The problem with small amount of water is that the thermostats are mechanical and need a minimum amount to work. A full electronic control is the only solution....... but that costs money!

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2015, 04:35:18 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on August 30, 2015, 03:35:57 pmI wonder how much heat energy is actually left in the kettle just after boiling?That depends on the kettle and element composition and mass. Most modern kettles are made of steel which fortunately has a much lower specific heat capacity than water. I haven't weighed a kettle though so wouldn't be able to estimate it.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_capacity#Table_of_specific_heat_capacities

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 30, 2015, 04:45:57 pm
content: if you consider how long it takes to boil one cup and how long the water continues to boil for after switch off you may be left wondering.fuel fored heaters we use at work have to run for 2 minutes after heating is cut to ensure all of the residual heat is removed.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2015, 04:50:22 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on August 30, 2015, 04:45:57 pmWhy do they need to boil at all? Is there anything special about 100C?

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 30, 2015, 04:51:39 pm
content: Quite, Hence I'd like to see a feedback system that allows a set temperature and wind the power down as the temperature is achieved.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2015, 04:56:32 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on August 30, 2015, 04:45:57 pmDon't forget it takes less energy to keep a kettle boiling, than it does to increase the temperature of the water. A fair amount of energy is taken during the phase transition from liquid water to steam so perhaps a better way to measure how much energy is being wasted is to work out how much water evaporates after the kettle has boiled by weighing it.QuoteIs that really a fail comparison? Aren't they just heating air which isn't very dense and has a lower specific heat capacity, compared to water?

author: rolycat
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2015, 05:13:41 pm
content: Quote from: zapta on August 30, 2015, 04:50:22 pmYes, you don't need a thermometer to see when the water gets to that temperature. And when automatic kettles came along it was simple to direct the steam at a bimetallic strip which cut off the power.With modern electronic control there is potential for more flexibility, but serious tea drinkers will tell you that it's important to use just-boiled water for a decent cuppa.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 30, 2015, 05:20:22 pm
content: Quote from: Hero999 on August 30, 2015, 04:56:32 pmWell the two minutes is standard for water or air heaters and is probably exagerated for safety.

author: Mechanical Menace
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2015, 05:32:37 pm
content: Quote from: rolycat on August 30, 2015, 05:13:41 pmAnd serious coffee drinkers know you need the pressure to get well above 100 degrees...

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 30, 2015, 05:43:59 pm
content: Quote from: Mechanical Menace on August 30, 2015, 05:32:37 pmWell if the coffee is not hot enough there is nothing to sue over when one does something stupid and totally ones fault.

author: Mechanical Menace
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2015, 05:47:40 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on August 30, 2015, 05:43:59 pmThat's more to do with what's mixed with the coffee. Obviously instant doesn't need that heat but ground coffee made with 100 degree water is weak arse tasteless shit. French presses and filter coffee machines are for plebs

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 30, 2015, 05:50:36 pm
content: I do it properly with steam and use a perkulator

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2015, 06:03:37 pm
content: Any serious coffee drinker would know that you never use boiled water for making coffee.We have an old saying in Spain "Cafe hervido es cafe perdido" (boiled coffee is wasted coffee).Ideal temp for brewing coffee is 96C unless you are a fan of that bitter burn taste of burned coffee then all bets are off.90C would do as well, but the closer to 96C the better.

author: apis
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2015, 06:18:48 pm
content: Quote from: Mechanical Menace on August 30, 2015, 03:24:14 pmThere's no precedence for using gay in a derogatory way. Anyone who hear it who wasn't born yesterday is going to associate gay with a homosexual man or woman. I'm convinced many young people who use gay to mean bad don't really mean it in a homophobic way, but using it that way will be interpreted by young gay people (and others) as something negative no matter what anyone who use it actually mean. It's not as if there is a lack of synonyms to bad so way insist on using gay that way?There no-one more hypersensitive than those who insist on their right to be politically incorrect at every given opportunity.

author: apis
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2015, 06:26:52 pm
content: Quote from: miguelvp on August 30, 2015, 06:03:37 pmYeah, coffee manufacturers usually recommend 96C (204F) but taste is subjective of course. For stronger coffee use a darker roast and or higher ratio of coffee to water.Quote from: rolycat on August 30, 2015, 05:13:41 pmBlack tea need 100C but green tea only ~70C, so a PID controlled heater with adjustable temperature would be cool.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 30, 2015, 06:45:43 pm
content: Quote from: apis on August 30, 2015, 06:26:52 pmYou will never get 100c unless you put the tea bag into the boiling kettle at sea level.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2015, 06:47:43 pm
content: Quote from: apis on August 30, 2015, 06:18:48 pmEnglish has evolved over time. I believe the use of the word gay to mean homosexual was most likely derived from homophobia in the first place. If one is offended by the use of the word gay to refer to something as bad, then they shouldn't use it to refer to homosexuals either.Quotehttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gay#SexualizationPersonally, I prefer to look at the context before I get offended. If someone says all gays should be gassed then yes that's blatantly offensive but if they said CapXon capacitors are gay, it's not offensive.Everyone here should take into account that this is an international forum and that translations/meanings of words vary the world over, so think twice both before you post and take offence to what someone else has written.

author: apis
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2015, 06:52:05 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on August 30, 2015, 06:45:43 pmThat's why tea aficionados use thick walled ceramic pots that they pre-heat with boiling water before brewing. At higher altitudes they can't make proper tea.

author: apis
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2015, 07:02:59 pm
content: Quote from: Hero999 on August 30, 2015, 06:47:43 pmIt's common for homosexual men and women to refer to themselves as gay/lesbian. Maybe it was derogatory once, I don't know. What's important is how people perceive it today. Why is it important to use words in a way that is offensive to a lot of people, and then hide behind the rationalisation that it now has a new meaning completely unrelated to homosexuals?In Sweden there is a pastry that used to be called "negro buns/balls"... no-one calls it that any more except the select few who insist on being politically incorrect all the time. I'm sure it was never intended to mean anything but "dark buns" but it's not perceived that way today and that's what matters.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chokladboll

author: Mechanical Menace
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2015, 07:13:42 pm
content: Quote from: Hero999 on August 30, 2015, 06:47:43 pmOr just accept that many words have multiple meanings.Quote from: apis on August 30, 2015, 07:02:59 pmIt's also common for them to refer to rubbish stuff as gay too. Well at least the ones of my age group and younger in the UK. I'm guessing they find it very easy to tell the difference between it meaning happy, homosexual, or crap depending on the context. Or maybe when they describe someone as camp they mean they are a temporary settlement...And I'd say at least the entirety of my life (30 odd years) is plenty of precedence if I'm honest.Quote from: Simon on August 30, 2015, 05:50:36 pmSame here but I use a stove top one. Strong and only as bitter as the blend is. I also roast my own beans though so meh.

author: apis
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2015, 07:23:10 pm
content: Quote from: Mechanical Menace on August 30, 2015, 07:13:42 pmI'm sure they do. But saying it has nothing to do with gay meaning homosexual is BS imo. You would not find it rude if a lot of people began using British to mean bad suddenly?

author: Mechanical Menace
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2015, 07:34:01 pm
content: Quote from: apis on August 30, 2015, 07:23:10 pmWell tough titty booby because in that context it no more means homosexual than saying "I'm breaking camp" means beating up flamboyant people or "look at that poor tramp begging over there" refers to a slag. Your opinion doesn't matter, what matters is the reality. And I'm pretty certain people who self identify as gay and also use the word to mean bad don't think it has anything to do with homosexuality in that context or they wouldn;t use it.QuoteThey already do. British food means shit food, "Made in Britain" means will fall apart in no time, Britain itself means irrelevant outside of this silly little island with no power and no say, the whole country is nothing but a laughing stock.

author: apis
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2015, 08:24:52 pm
content: Quote from: Mechanical Menace on August 30, 2015, 07:34:01 pmThat's what I've been trying to say!QuoteIt doesn't work that way, everyone will do what it takes to fit in...QuoteOK, maybe it does to some people in Britain; you might be surprised to hear that it doesn't in this part of the world though.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2015, 11:07:50 pm
content: Quote from: apis on August 30, 2015, 07:02:59 pmAnd black people often refer to one another as nigga, especially in hip-hop music.QuoteWhy you you feel that it's important to censor someone because what they say offends you?Don't forget this is an international forum and what's offensive depends on the culture and area of the world; for example, in South Africa the word nigger is not considered to be racist or offensive.QuoteWhen that sort of thing happens, it's a sign being politically correct and avoiding offending people has gone too far.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2015, 11:59:10 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on August 30, 2015, 05:43:59 pmI saw a documentary about that woman that sure McDonald, actually she had a good case. IIRC it was on Netflix.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2015, 12:03:00 am
content: Quote from: apis on August 30, 2015, 06:18:48 pmWhat's wrong with being a 'homosexual man or woman'?

author: apis
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2015, 03:49:23 am
content: Quote from: Hero999 on August 30, 2015, 11:07:50 pmWhy do you think I want to censor anyone?I don't believe in censorship. I only pointed out (since it was mentioned by someone) that using gay as a derogatory term is going to be perceived as homophobic/offensive by many even if it's not intended that way, so unless that's the intention it's probably wise not to use that word that way.Quote from: Hero999 on August 30, 2015, 11:07:50 pmOr it's a sign that most people are considerate and decent enough that they care more about other peoples feelings than whatever they call their confectionery.Quote from: zapta on August 31, 2015, 12:03:00 amNothing in my opinion. I would have thought that was obvious, what makes you think I believe so? Do you think so?Sorry, this has gotten way off-topic and I don't have anything else to add to this discussion so maybe we should get back to the more entertaining discussion of electric kettles.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2015, 04:18:20 am
content: Quote from: Hero999 on August 30, 2015, 11:07:50 pmNo, it is regarded as both racist and offensive here.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2015, 09:36:30 am
content: Quote from: SeanB on August 31, 2015, 04:18:20 amLooks like I need to have a chat with the south African who told me otherwise.Quote from: mojo-chan on August 31, 2015, 09:32:17 amI've never understood the banning of gollywog dolls. It always seemed stupid and even racist banning them.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 31, 2015, 09:48:20 am
content: Does anyone have anything else to say about kettles before I have to lock this off ?

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2015, 02:13:11 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on August 31, 2015, 09:48:20 amYes.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 31, 2015, 02:46:42 pm
content: Quote from: zapta on August 31, 2015, 02:13:11 pmis there anything those carachters are not on or in ?

author: Mechanical Menace
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2015, 02:57:49 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on August 31, 2015, 02:46:42 pmFixed for you

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2015, 04:31:40 pm
content: Funny enough I know a girl called Mignon, she pronounces it as Minion.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 31, 2015, 04:32:38 pm
content: Ah different countries and different meanings to things

author: apis
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2015, 07:06:31 pm
content: I was going to say that this looks like the perfect solution, it has programmable temperature and automatic insertion and removal of the tea leafs:But then I saw the prize: only 160 GBP!According to one of the comments: "Yes, its expensive but so worth it (If its on special offer!)".http://www.johnlewis.com/sage-by-heston-blumenthal-the-tea-maker-kettle-silver/p489169EDIT: Oh the irony, censoring my message about censoring.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2015, 02:01:42 am
content: Quote from: apis on August 31, 2015, 07:06:31 pmPerfection is in the eye of the beholder

author: German_EE
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2015, 09:22:27 pm
content: During some totally unrelated work I found a very interesting kettle-related link:http://www.giangrandi.ch/electronics/lfboiler/lfboiler.shtmlIt looks like there is more than one use for a 1KW kettle!