Fnirsi LCR-P1, $30 LCR tester (August 2024) - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: tunk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2024, 04:59:42 pm
content: Specs in the screenshot below.https://www.aliexpress.us/item/3256807382982191.html

author: indman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2024, 05:31:33 pm
content: What's the new type transistor I've underlined in red?

author: tunk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2024, 10:21:50 pm
content: Picture of the PCB taken from this link:https://mysku-club.translate.goog/blog/discounts/100948.html?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=no&_x_tr_hist=true

author: mawyatt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2024, 02:38:15 pm
content: Quote from: indman on August 23, 2024, 05:31:33 pmAlso, they can't seem to get the transistor right!!!See image an NPN with current flowingintothe EmitterMaybe it's anInvertedNPN, or they preferElectron FlowBest,

author: indman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2024, 03:39:49 pm
content: Quote from: mawyatt on August 26, 2024, 02:38:15 pmYeah, I noticed that too!But boxes and cases FNIRSI can make beautiful, that is, the shell is nice, and what is inside this box is a secondary and non-responsible matter.

author: RAPo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2024, 03:48:08 pm
content: That must be the NPN-transistor with inverted emitter from the first image.It is magick.Quote from: indman on August 23, 2024, 05:31:33 pm

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2024, 10:18:14 pm
content: The case and big ass TEST button looks good.But no real difference in this very basic circuit over all the hundreds of existing testers right? So don't see any advantages. Other than maybe that 32V zener voltage.And of course they will probably never update the firmware again.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2024, 10:54:18 pm
content: Quote from: thm_w on August 26, 2024, 10:18:14 pmIf the device works as it should, then that is great. I see needing firmware updates as something bad as it means the product wasn't good when it was sold.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2024, 11:12:53 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on August 26, 2024, 10:54:18 pmWell, none of them are perfect. That's for certain.

author: BillyO
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2024, 06:25:31 pm
content: After the failure of their "100MHz" bench and tablet oscilloscopes FNIRSI seem to have taken things very seriously and have released some really nice entry level products like their HS-01 and HS-02 soldering irons, the DMY-99 smart meter and their line of USB meters. A lot of people are getting a lot of good use out of those products. They are quality made and actually do meet their specifications and meet them well. However, the thing that really stands about about them is their responsiveness. If you contact them on an issue they are right their to work with you on it very muchunlikeUNI-T and Aneng, where your requests are cast upon deaf ears.For instance, I got to play with one of their DMT-99 "Smart" meters recently. They position it as an entry level hobbyist instrument and that's exactly what it is. No ridiculous CAT ratings that you know it will never meet, again unlike their competition, and it's built like a brick shithouse. This being my first experience with a "smart" meter, I thought it would take forever to figure out what to do, but when comparing it to my Brymen BM786 it was able to figure out what it was I was measuringANDautorange to give me a value 3 times faster than the BM786 managed to just autorange. Bonus was the result was well within specification when compared to the Brymen.For now I'm going to keep an open mind about FNIRSI. I have one of these LCR-P1s on it's way to me just for fun and to compare with the 3 other component testers I have. I'll report back.

author: cahillsr
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: September 05, 2024, 02:07:16 pm
content: I have purchased this device.I am having a issue with it. When I test a Darlington transistor it says it is a dual diode. The same transistor test fine on my LCR-TC1. I have 1.03 firmware installed and have tryed to install 1.04 from the linkhttps://www.mediafire.com/file/3tbiflxjsfcxzxa/LCR-P1.rar/fileI can not find file at this address. Anyone else having issues with this device

author: RAPo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 05, 2024, 03:00:05 pm
content: Mine arrived yesterday. Of course, I immediately tested an NPN transistor: the image had the correct symbols. So the graphical designer erred, not the Fnirsi engineers.I did discover that if you test a bi-colored LED (two legs), the image was badly readable. After presenting this to Fnirsi, they mailed back in one day:version 1.0.5should solve the problem, and indeed, it did.Be careful with the link, my virusscaner gave a warning.I really like how the zener testing is implemented.Quote from: cahillsr on September 05, 2024, 02:07:16 pm

author: Kim Christensen
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 05, 2024, 03:24:32 pm
content: Quote from: tunk on August 24, 2024, 10:21:50 pmHmmm.. Curious as to what the mechanical relay does. Is it for protection? (Discharging the DUT)

author: indman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 05, 2024, 03:54:07 pm
content: Quote from: Kim Christensen on September 05, 2024, 03:24:32 pmYes, this is protection according to this picture from FNIRSI.

author: cahillsr
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: September 06, 2024, 12:44:57 pm
content: Still having problem were Lcr-p1 is testing Darlington transistors the tester display says they are dual diodes. Looking for working firmware download link. If someone could post it. No response from mfg as yet

author: BillyO
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 06, 2024, 01:33:48 pm
content: Quote from: cahillsr on September 06, 2024, 12:44:57 pmDid you see post #11, right after your las post?

author: cahillsr
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: September 06, 2024, 02:13:11 pm
content: That link does not work

author: indman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 06, 2024, 02:15:36 pm
content: Quote from: cahillsr on September 06, 2024, 02:13:11 pmThis link RAPo works, check it againhttps://www.mediafire.com/file/stm6kf5r9oqfjgq/LCR-P1-1.0.5.rar/file

author: cahillsr
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: September 06, 2024, 10:01:06 pm
content: Thank you firmware 1.05 fixed my issues

author: Randy222
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 06, 2024, 10:03:32 pm
content: What accuracy % do they publish for the ranges they list in spec sheet?

author: Andrey_Ak
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2024, 05:30:20 am
content: Hello! FNIRSI DSO TS3 and TS2 do not measure ESR correctly or do not know how to measure it at all! Fnirsi LCR P1 - Does it know how to measure ESR and does it measure correctly?So the FNIRSI DSO TS3 and TS2 testers are completely inoperable, and are just toys.I would like to buy a normal tester, in a good case, which measures the ESR correctly, and not randomly like the TS3.

author: MadTux
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2024, 01:58:54 pm
content: Same cheap garbage component tester from like 10years ago, just in fancy case and with color display.10years later and still no curve tracer and some nice connection posts, which would make that thing actually somewhat usable....

author: BillyO
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2024, 04:59:47 pm
content: Quote from: Andrey_Ak on September 08, 2024, 05:30:20 amHave you read any of this thread? Just 2 posts above yours you can see that a poster was able to fix the problems he was having by installing the latest firmware.

author: Calambres
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2024, 05:10:15 pm
content: Interesting. I'm keeping an eye on this thing.

author: Andrey_Ak
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2024, 05:12:45 pm
content: Quote from: BillyO on September 08, 2024, 04:59:47 pmYes, I read the topic. My main question was as follows:"FNIRSI DSO TS3 and TS2 do not measure ESR correctly or do not know how to measure it at all!FNIRSI LCR P1 - Does it know how to measure ESR and does it measure correctly?"And the last line was addressed to the manufacturer, I just copied it not carefully. It should not have been written here.

author: BillyO
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2024, 05:24:50 pm
content: Quote from: Andrey_Ak on September 08, 2024, 05:12:45 pmWell, first, even LCR meters that cost in the hundreds or even thousands of dollars have a very hard time agreeing on what the ESR of a given capacitor is. Given that what are your expectations on the accuracy of a $30 device?Yes, the LCR-P1 does measure ESR. I don;t know how accurate it is yet, but I have bought one and it should be with me soon. I will report here what I find.The TC2 and TC3 are primarily scopes. The TC3 does have upgradeable firmware and I do not believe FNIRSI have abandoned it.

author: Andrey_Ak
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2024, 05:40:52 pm
content: Here's a comparison, the first three devices show correctly.And the fourth column is the readings of the fake Chinese tester T7 (former TC1).https://tis.kz/temp/20240908_223153.jpghttps://tis.kz/temp/20240908_223256.jpg

author: indman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2024, 05:41:22 pm
content: Quote from: BillyO on September 08, 2024, 05:24:50 pmWe don't need to expound nonsense. A responsible capacitor manufacturer always accompanies its products with a technical description and characteristics, which also indicate the ESR or Z limits at a certain frequency, temperature, etc. There are quite strict conditions for measuring parameters at the manufacturer's factory.Instruments forMEASURINGcapacitor parameters must meet these conditions. That's all we need to know.Quote from: BillyO on September 08, 2024, 05:24:50 pmNo, it does notMEASUREESR, but onlySHOWSsome result on the display. These toys cannot measure ESR by definition and due to their hardware.Quote from: BillyO on September 08, 2024, 05:24:50 pmTC2 and TC3 are positioned as 2 in 1 devices. Which part is more important here is difficult to say, since both are just parodies of measuring instruments. FNIRSI usually drop support for their products as soon as they release a new product with similar content to the market.

author: Andrey_Ak
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2024, 06:01:12 pm
content: Quote from: indman on September 08, 2024, 05:41:22 pmI completely agree with you.I hoped that something had changed with the release of the LCR-P1, that they could at least make just a transistor tester normal, without useless toys "oscilloscopes", "generators"..

author: BillyO
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2024, 06:53:46 pm
content: Oh goody, the God of metrology chimes in in our discussion of sub $30 devices.Quote from: indman on September 08, 2024, 05:41:22 pmYet, three different top end LCR meters WILL measure a given capacitor differently even when the measurements are done to spec. Prove me wrong. You are lucky if you end up with agreement within 10%-15%Besides, measurement of ESR should ideally be done based on application, not spec sheets. At best they are a guide. ESR is dependant on voltage, frequency, temperature and the color of your great aunt's underwear. If you need a specific limit on the ESR of a capacitor, it should tested against the conditions of the application.Quote from: indman on September 08, 2024, 05:41:22 pmBy what definition? (word salad alert) Yes, blah, blah, blah ...Get off your high horse here! We are talking about things that cost $30 or less. We're not talking about a Keysight E4980A here so trying to compare these things to something like that is trulyexpounding nonsense. Not everyone can afford an E4980A, and that's a cheapie in the Keysight lineup. And if you are looking for one of these $30 devices to give $30,000 results, your an idiot.So, let's compare McDonald's burger patties to Kobe beef tenderloin next. Make sense?The internet

author: indman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2024, 06:59:44 pm
content: Quote from: BillyO on September 08, 2024, 06:53:46 pmDon't embarrass yourself by spouting your nonsense here.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2024, 07:33:38 pm
content: Quote from: BillyO on September 08, 2024, 06:53:46 pmWhat if she went commando? 🤔

author: BillyO
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2024, 07:55:21 pm
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on September 08, 2024, 07:33:38 pmAll bets are off!

author: Phil1977
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2024, 07:57:18 pm
content: I really like a few of the FNIRSI products (thinking about the SG04...) but I´m absolutely not convinced of their transistor tester clones.For well below $30 you can get a good version of the original transistor tester, capable of using the open source software and being supported by its community. And usually the good versions even deliver a usable ESR value.Why do you want to buy a closed source tool that doesn't care a tiny bit about the open source nature of its core design? Just because of the fancy housing?

author: BillyO
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2024, 08:05:27 pm
content: Quote from: indman on September 08, 2024, 06:59:44 pmNo answer, eh?There are multiple ways you could measure ESR. Even using step functions like these cheap things do. Bur please, tell us thedefinitiveway?All this nonsense aside, these are handy and useful devices if you get one that's decently made. However, measuring actual ESR is not one of the things I would ever use one for. ESR is not easy to get accurately for a host of reasons no matter what method you use. That's why a decent ESR meter costs $30,000. Even still, you could use the "ESR" reading on one of these usefully. Like comparing a new electrolytic capacitor that measures "X" to and old suspect one that measures "5X". You don't really need to know the exact ESR to determine if something should be replaced.I hate bullies and snobs.I'll give you the last word.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2024, 09:56:46 pm
content: Quote from: BillyO on September 08, 2024, 08:05:27 pmI'm sure some excellent ESR meters cost that much, but nice meters exist well below that.For example:https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/647-UHE1H102MHD3TNAccording to Mouser and other retails: UHE1H102MHD3TN has an ESR of 21mΩ. (the datasheet only specifies the max/min ESR)My office right now is 24.4C (76F) and 39% RH.IM3570 @ 1kHz:Cap 1: 27.69mΩCap 2: 26.20mΩCap 3: 25.96mΩ3532-50 @ 1kHz:Cap 1: 26.41mΩCap 2: 25.86mΩCap 3: 25.82mΩEven the humble Shannon ST42 did well.ST42 @ 1kHz:Cap 1: 23.52mΩCap 2: 20.81mΩCap 3: 20.08mΩIt might be relevant to note that the ST42 is the only device I didn't do a fresh open/short correction with.With a target of 21mΩ from Mouser, I think all 3 meters did pretty well. 🤷Thanks,Josh

author: Circlotron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2024, 10:31:35 pm
content: Quote from: indman on August 23, 2024, 05:31:33 pmLooks like a miosprint.

author: BillyO
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2024, 02:42:38 am
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on September 08, 2024, 09:56:46 pmYes, I'd agree. Not quite within the 10%-15% I had mentioned over all 3, but what I'd generally expect from past experience.You have quite a range there from $15,000 to $170 though. The ST42, not being calibrated might have gotten luckyNow, what would you expect for a sub $30 instrument that had no way to set any testing parameters?

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2024, 03:03:09 am
content: Quote from: BillyO on September 09, 2024, 02:42:38 amYou can't expect results within 10% of a stated number without knowing the actual test frequency and room temp. Considering my office was still warmer than typical labs, and none of my meters have an active cal cert, I'd say it was pretty awesome. I could have changed the test frequency to match the ESR better, but I picked 1kHz since it's pretty common. ESR is dead on at 118 kHz (attached). 😉😉The ST42 was open/short corrected yesterday. I think it wasn't much to do with luck. 😉 I have to correct the bench meters more frequently because I'm always changing fixtures.I've mentioned before in these threads, I would never use or recommend any of the Fnirsi or TC1 type devices for anything other than transistor testing/identification. The small exception being the DSO-TC3, with which the scope mode was sometimes useful to test the outer foils on film capacitors...but I only really did that to test the TC3. I'd obviously stick with my Siglent HD scope for any real scoping.ETA: All 3 test caps are nearly identical at 118kHz.

author: BillyO
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2024, 03:29:58 am
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on September 09, 2024, 03:03:09 amEven then you can't expect within 5% even for $15K instruments. ESR is a f'k of a thing to measure accurately.You can get a $15K DMM and measure a voltage and it's going to agree with a $50 DMM to within 0.1%or better. Same with ohms or current. ESR, no bloody way.When I was the of the facilitator of the 4th year electronics lab at the University of Toronto back in the late '80s we had a lab on measuring ESR of capacitors. The whole idea of the lab was to demonstrate there are physical properties of things (ESR of capacitors in this case) that are so entangled as to be almost impossible to ascertain to any high degree of precision.Here, try this. Take one of the capacitors you just tested on the $15K Hioki, test it again. Now rotate the entire test setup physically by 90%. Does it measure even slightly differently? How about inserting the cap 10mm more into the fixture? How about 10mm less? How about standing off to the side? Mabe leave a coffee cup close by?There will be differences (if the meter gives enough precision), and that is with the same cap and same instrument. BTW, I notice they don't have too any digits of precision in the ESR readings, do they?. Dead giveaway right there.Long argument made short .. ESR measurement is never precise nor is it accurate. Not even with tens of thousands of dollars spent. With $30 spent, WTF do you expect? And this is my whole point.

author: Andrey_Ak
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2024, 09:34:28 am
content: FNIRSI's response from their official website:https://tis.kz/temp/answer_fnirsi_LCR-P1.jpg

author: Phil1977
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2024, 10:38:44 am
content: If you want to spend $30,- and get the best ESR estimation that is available then please take- LCR tweezers like the Zoyi or Fnirsi ST1- An ESR meter like the RC3563If you want to get a capable transistor tester, then I can recommend the following:https://de.aliexpress.com/item/1005004914474349.htmlIt´s only $10 and it uses a standard Atmel 328 MCU. I`m not sure if it´s an authentic one but you can change it in case of doubt.I still don't get why people want to buy a closed source version of an open source project for 3 times the price

author: Phil1977
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2024, 11:03:56 am
content: Out of curiosity I checked a standard 1000uF/35V cap with 5 devices I just have available:FNIRSI TC3: 987.9uF, 420mOhmFNIRSI ST1: 905.1uF, 59.9mOhmET 432: 892.4uF, 71.82mOhmATMEL 328 Transistor tester: 926uF, 40mOhmRC3563: 6.795mOhmThis test shows that the TC3 and RC3563 are ridiculously wrong. At least the two LCR meters are not worlds apart, and the "original" Atmel 328 is at least showing the right order of magnitude.As soon as I find 30min of time for it I´ll do the ESR-check with the scope and waveform generator with the same cap.

author: Aldo22
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2024, 11:16:00 am
content: Quote from: Phil1977 on September 09, 2024, 10:38:44 amFunny, I was just about to write the same...

author: Andrey_Ak
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2024, 11:20:05 am
content: Quote from: Phil1977 on September 09, 2024, 10:38:44 amI have a GM-328 with the original controller, it works fine.I want a complete, beautiful device in the case.

author: Xena E
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2024, 12:13:54 pm
content: If you want to measure ESR for a critical new product application do it properly with a scope!If you have to measure capacitors to ensure good quality then change your supplier.If you want to measure ESR in a repair situation and the fault indicates a duff capacitor just forget the friggin ESR measurement wankery, change the bloody thing and get on with your day.We hand out those Fnirsi things to the field service techs, great for simple ball park checks, and there's no tears if they loose them or f*ck them up.They could be better for the money, all their products could, and the specs could at least be honest (scope bandwidths are a big joke!) that would improve their reputation. To give to kids in a classroom to play with and study a 555 circuit though they're fine.If you need lab grade equipment you have to pay for it. Comparing cheap hobby grade stuff with professional instruments is just stupid.

author: BillyO
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2024, 02:06:00 pm
content: Quote from: Xena E on September 09, 2024, 12:13:54 pmThey are definitely getting better at this. The 1014D and 1013D were a mess in this respect but it seems they have learned something from teh experience.Quote from: Xena E on September 09, 2024, 12:13:54 pmI couldn't agree more.

author: Phil1977
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2024, 02:16:56 pm
content: Quote from: Xena E on September 09, 2024, 12:13:54 pmThere is exactly one good reason to do it: To learn about your equipment. There´s rarely anything more educational than analysing where the deviations come from. And sometimes even the expensive instruments display something non plausible - it´s always good to be able and to be used to cross-check your results.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2024, 03:39:50 pm
content: Quote from: BillyO on September 09, 2024, 03:29:58 amSee attached. I'd say the shift of .01mΩ at 90 degrees (I assume that's what you meant) is not significant. The cap gets inserted fully in the fixture. Pulling it out 10mm only adds inconsistencies and questions the fixture's mechanical hold on the DUT. It's easy to make measurements worse, but using fixtures and devices as intended helps a little bit. 😉My office temperature is 69F right now. That's much closer to the datasheet, and typical lab temps. At 100kHz, the ESR is on target now. 100kHz is the freq with which the datasheet notes ESR.QuoteI'm not disagreeing with you. I do agree that measuring ESR is a big pain in the ass. However, if the tools are sufficient, and used properly, with known targets (ESR @ freq) and environmental conditions, it's a lot easier to get aprobablyreliable ESR reading.I 100% agree with you about trying to measure ESR with $30 toys. Even if Fnirsi claims a device can test ESR properly, I won't believe them unless they're talking about a better brand. 🤣

author: BillyO
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2024, 03:58:11 pm
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on September 09, 2024, 03:39:50 pmThanks for doing that test. No, it's not really significant. but it is a demonstration that even in controlled conditions even something like minor environmental changes can make a small difference. Placed in a circuit where there may be heatsinks, ground planes, and transformers close by the effects add up - possibly to being significant. I guess that's why we have only two significant digits of decimal even on high end LCR equipment.Quote from: KungFuJosh on September 09, 2024, 03:39:50 pmYes, as good as you're going to get.Quote from: KungFuJosh on September 09, 2024, 03:39:50 pm

author: mawyatt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2024, 05:31:11 pm
content: There seems to be many misconceptions/misunderstandings about Capacitor ESR, this is just a parameter that helps describe the capacitors loss in a simple 2 element capacitor series model, C + ESR, or 3 element series model C + ESR + ESL. ESR simply lumps all the capacitor losses into one simple parameter, similar to Capacitor "Q" which represents overall "Quality" which shows relative Reactance/Rloss, or 1/(omega*C*ESR).Unfortunately ESR is a highly dependent variable with frequency, waveform type, capacitor type, value, applied voltage, temperature, age, history and so on, which often prevents one from precise results, and makes it difficult to pin-down a specific reading with any confidence. Some capacitor types have a more repeatable ESR measurement, such as some large value PP Film types.ESR tends to be low values which place importance on cables/fixture, setup and calibration (Zero/Short specifically), which adds additional uncertainty in measurement.However, ESR measurement is not all Black Magic, as one can achieve respectable results with good engineering practice. First off, one needs to KTI (Know Thy Instrument) and how the results displayed are created. Significant differences exist in operation between the low-cost All-In-One Testers and LCR Meters, even between LCR dedicated instruments themselves!!One also needs to understand the DUT under investigation. For example, ESR is highly temperature dependent in most large value Electrolytic/Polymer Capacitors. During measurement Lab Grade LCR Meters can produce significant DUT current, often greater than 100ma RMS!! This current heats the capacitor internally by means of I^2 *ESR which changes not only the Capacitance but also the ESR readings. One can experience this effect by simply watching the Capacitance and ESR readings change as time moves on, and should wait for these to stabilize for a more repeatable result.Since low Z values are present where ESR is usually of concern, setup and fixtures play an import part in achieving repeatable results. One should study the various resources (some on here) for these and become intimately familiar with if repeatable results are expected.Calibration is extremely important for quality repeatable measurements of any kind, especially true for Short/Zero Calibration for Low Z, ESR is no different. Lab Bench LCR meters often have an extensive Calibration Routines which should be employed, and some fixtures require specialized means for Calibration. For example the popular Leaded Component Fixture such as the Tonghui TH26048A has a specialized Zero Metallic Blade TH26010 for quality Zero Calibrations.Anyway, the general message here is that repeatable ESR measurements are indeed difficult, especially so between different instruments, but with patience and good engineering practice can be reeled in to respectable results.Here's a quick example achieved with various capacitors and LCR Meters TH2830, IM3536 @ 1KHz and Multi-Function Tester T7. Results shown C in uF and (ESR in ohms).As always YMMVTH2830 IM3536 T743.7068 (0.4911) 43.7060 (0.49879) 44.78 (0.52)945.931 (0.03833) 946.561 (0.03788) 1028 (0.11)424.159 (0.06465) 424.435 (0.07221) 440.2 (0.15)95.6551 (0.04040) 95.5962 (0.04214) 96.84 (0.11) Polymer9.85790 (0.06412) 9.85680 (0.06405) 9.377 (0.08) Polypropylene4.90324* (0.00338) 4.90205 (0.00813) 4.651 (0.07) Polypropylene*Edit, added. Even with careful Setup and Calibrations, Leaded Capacitors with very low ESR (<10 mill-ohms) present a difficult measurement. Here a special fixture which reduces lead and contact effects would be appropriate, similar to what was developed for very Low Z SMD Components.CorrectedBest,

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2024, 07:58:29 pm
content: Quote from: mawyatt on September 09, 2024, 05:31:11 pmIs that line correct? I don't know whether to be more surprised by the disagreement between the 2830 and 3536, or by the (almost) agreement between the 3536 and T7. 😉

author: mawyatt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2024, 11:55:51 pm
content: Good catch, should be 0.4911I'll correct it, thanks for pointing this outMy badBest,

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 10, 2024, 12:29:39 am
content: Wow, I guess then I'm shocked that the T7 was so close on that one. 😉

author: indman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 10, 2024, 05:31:55 am
content: Quote from: mawyatt on September 09, 2024, 05:31:11 pmLet me ask you - what firmware is installed on your T7 and what controller is it built on?I see a difference in ESR readings by a factor of almost 2-3 compared to the TH2830 and IM3536.Look at the measurements I took recently and compare them to your own.https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/$20-lcr-esr-transistor-checker-project/msg5620855/#msg5620855

author: Andrey_Ak
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 10, 2024, 06:03:28 am
content: Quote from: Andrey_Ak on September 08, 2024, 05:40:52 pmThe T7 transistor tester has been producing a fake for a long time, with an incomprehensible controller. It is simply not capable of measuring the ESR, its readings are just an algorithm based on the capacity value. Perhaps the old first TC1 and T7 testers that were on the original ATMEGA controllers could work correctly, but now they can't be bought, only non-working fakes are on sale. At high ESR values, the readings are no good. Check out the comparison on the links.

author: indman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 10, 2024, 06:07:50 am
content: Quote from: Andrey_Ak on September 10, 2024, 06:03:28 amFor you and for me, this has been known and understood for a long time. That's why I asked the questionmawyatt.Even though FNIRSI assure you in their letter that their new tester measures ESR correctly, I still doubt it very much, because it is not based on an AVR controller and it is unlikely that Chinese friends have done as much grand work to customize the measurement algorithm as our respected German project authors have done.

author: Andrey_Ak
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 10, 2024, 06:29:35 am
content: Well, the M-Tester LCR-T4 and M328 and the like with open firmware measure correctly.Well, let's wait for FNIRSI P1 to arrive and test it.

author: indman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 10, 2024, 06:40:07 am
content: It is necessary to compare the results at several frequencies and not just at 1 kHz. The ESR readings on the original AVR Atmega are close to the readings of LCR meters at frequencies of 10 kHz and 100 kHz.Because I’ll quote from Karl-Heinz’s manual:"Strictly speaking the ESR of a capacitor depends on the operating frequency and temperature.Usually the value measured with sine wave-form signal of 100kHz is denoted in the data sheets. Thismeasurement can not be done with the ATmega without external equipment. With the subsequentwritten method the measurement frequency with the standard ADC clock rate will be below 640 Hzwith nearly rectangular signal. With 500kHz ADC clock rate the measurement frequency will be2400 Hz. To get the value of the equivalent series resistance, the voltage of both connections willbe measured during loading in one direction with the ADC internal reference voltage (1.1V ). Afterthe measurement the load current will be switched off and the voltage of the capacitor is measuredagain without the current."For the newer ESR measurement method, the manual contains the following note:"The measurement periode is about 900µs, which resultsto a frequency of about 1.1kHz. Because the load pulse is very short, the measurement result iscomparable to measurements with 10kHz"

author: indman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 10, 2024, 09:56:04 am
content: Quote from: Andrey_Ak on September 10, 2024, 06:29:35 amI have not yet seen full testing of this tester, but this message already allows us to slightly assess the reliability of the ESR readings.https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/smart-smd-tester-ms8911/msg5632465/#msg5632465ESR of 50 mOhm for the Nichicon RNS1C470MDS1 capacitor - such a capacitor can safely be sent to the trash bin, if you believe this tester.The Fnirsi LCR-ST1 tweezers give more realistic readings for this capacitor at a frequency of 10kHz - 17mOhmThere are fairly high-quality photographs of the hardware components of this toy and a short review herehttps://mysku.club/blog/aliexpress/101064.htmlI especially laughed at the 22 Ohm Rds of the N-E mosfet.

author: mawyatt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 10, 2024, 02:05:34 pm
content: Quote from: indman on September 10, 2024, 05:31:55 amWe've had the T7 for some time now and haven't ever updated the firmware, it's in original state. T7 is based around an Atmel ATMEGA324PA U-TH 35455G 1950E7D.This T7 apparently does not use an algorithm for ESR, we proved to ourselves by measuring a ~47uF Electrolytic with 0.42 ohm ESR. Measured 1 ohm resistor (~1.1 ohms), then added in series with cap and T7 measured 47uF with 1.5 ohm ESR.BTW this is a simple way to verify if ESR is reasonable and measured properly, or at all. Just add a known small value series Resistor with the DUT cap and see how the ESR reading behaves. Of course do this at a low enough frequency where DUT and Resistor lead inductance doesn't matter!!Anyway, for us the T7 does its intended purpose, and that is identifying a component with approximate values/types/polarities and NOT for any type precision or detailed comparison measurements, we have multiple precision lab instruments for thisAs always, YMMVBest,

author: indman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 10, 2024, 02:15:28 pm
content: Quote from: mawyatt on September 10, 2024, 02:05:34 pmYou still have a classic T7 clone on a proper Atmega. If you install OSHW firmware and calibrate it properly, it will measure ESR almost similar to your LCR meters TH2830 and IM3536. This has been proven time and time again by numerous users of similar T7's to yours. But it already depends only on your desire. If you are happy with the Chinese firmware, then so be it

author: mawyatt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 10, 2024, 02:26:37 pm
content: Quote from: indman on September 10, 2024, 02:15:28 pmPlease provide a link to this resource.Best,

author: indman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 10, 2024, 03:20:36 pm
content: Quote from: mawyatt on September 10, 2024, 02:26:37 pmOk!The current k-firmware distribution is here:https://github.com/kubi48/TransistorTester-source/tree/master/trunkThere is a folder for your clone "mega644_T7_Mod". It does not contain the firmware for your ATmega324, but it is not difficult to compile it if you so desire.The current m-firmware distribution is herehttps://github.com/madires/Transistortester-Warehouse/tree/master/Firmware/m-firmwareIt does not contain ready-made firmware for your clone, but it is also not difficult to compile.But I must give you one important warning so that you do not later blame me for breaking your clone.In order for the OSHW firmware to work normally on your T7, you will have to work a little, that is, program another small chip for 8 legs or replace it with a simple circuit of 2 transistors to control the clone’s power.

author: indman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 10, 2024, 03:27:21 pm
content: Quote from: mawyatt on September 10, 2024, 02:05:34 pmA long time ago I did the same experiment with an additional no-inductance resistor 17,4 ohm when I checked how my multifunctional Chinese device BR866A measured ESR and C. I even saved the photos, see below

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 11, 2024, 03:26:14 pm
content: I'm sure we'll all be shocked to see that the P1 still cannot accurately test ESR. The P1 doesn't have open or short correction either. It comes with the 3 shitty test clips like the DSO-TC3, but neither the manual nor the device itself show any way to apply any kind of correction.

author: BillyO
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 11, 2024, 03:34:47 pm
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on September 11, 2024, 03:26:14 pmBut it does come with an interchangeable test fixture so that you can design and build whatever it is you want for your purposes.Mine has arrived and I'll be playing with it today. I'll let y'all know.BTW, what is the ESR of that cap according to the Hioki?

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 11, 2024, 03:37:29 pm
content: Quote from: BillyO on September 11, 2024, 03:34:47 pmYes, that is cool. It has that cute SMT test fixture too, despite not having anything to press the SMT device securely on the pads.But, I still wouldn't use it for anything besides transistor testing...which I will test out later.

author: BillyO
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 11, 2024, 03:40:28 pm
content: You may not see my edit above, so - I'll ask again .. what does the Hioki say tha ESR of that cap is? Just for interest sake.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 11, 2024, 04:44:03 pm
content: Quote from: BillyO on September 11, 2024, 03:40:28 pmlol, nope. Didn't see it.It's the same cap as 1 of the 3 tested here:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/fnirsi-lcr-p1-%2430-lcr-tester-(august-2024)/msg5635251/#msg5635251Claimed 21mΩ ESR, tested around 26mΩ.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 11, 2024, 05:52:26 pm
content: Same transistor, repeated results for each device. Which one is the (bigger) piece of shit?

author: indman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 11, 2024, 05:58:38 pm
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on September 11, 2024, 05:52:26 pmApparently the one that is larger in your photo. But the boxes are beautiful for $30

author: BillyO
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 11, 2024, 06:22:32 pm
content: Okay,Had a chance to play around with the LCR-P1.Generally, it's as good or better at testing most components as are the GM328, T4 and T7 I have. For testing capacitance, it gets the value of the capacitor sufficiently well for a sub $30 device. However, like most of these cheap testers, you cannot get a reliable ESR reading out of it.As KungFuJosh said, there is no calibration procedure. They must calibrate it at the factory. Maybe if we badger them enough they could include that feature in a future firmware. That said it was as accurate or better than the 3 other units I have, even after calibrating them. Its overall functionality is not a deep as that of the GM328, but I find a lot of that is a waste of time. YMMVOn the other hand, the build quality and the removeable test fixture are winners in my book. Also very nice are the ability to test Zeners up to 32V and the ability to do butt simple firmware updates via USB directly.Overall I rate it as a definite contender in this market.I attached a spreadsheet of an analysis of two different 100uF capacitors, one a low ESR unit and the other a cheap little Chinese device. I don't have the actual specs for these caps, but that was not the point. The point was to see whether the 4 component testers could agree on what they measured (they did on capacitance value, they did not on ESR) between each other, a XJW01 (which is not awful) and using a scope and generator (the most accurate way available to me).Here is a link to the latest firmware (1.0.5) in ZIP format:https://drive.google.com/file/d/1-yvSpG4YlS5MrrkAAr7HIxCWWDscbC7t/view?usp=sharing

author: BillyO
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 11, 2024, 06:24:04 pm
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on September 11, 2024, 05:52:26 pmWhat firmware do you have?I installed 1.0.5 and had no such problems.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 11, 2024, 06:29:26 pm
content: Quote from: BillyO on September 11, 2024, 06:24:04 pmSame firmware here. I did that before testing anything. It might depend on the transistor, I'll test some others. Either way, that was a fail for the one function I would consider any of these devices for.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 11, 2024, 06:30:14 pm
content: Quote from: indman on September 11, 2024, 05:58:38 pmI love a good literal take. 😉

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 11, 2024, 06:36:13 pm
content: Here's 3 KSA1156YS transistors tested. Results are reasonably close, but I think the TC3 is significantly better, if for nothing other than the fact that it's at least 5 times faster at testing.

author: indman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 11, 2024, 06:44:59 pm
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on September 08, 2024, 09:56:46 pmFor which test frequency is the ESR value of 21mΩ in the datasheet for UHE1H102MHD3TN?I haven't found that kind of information on the internet. I have only found this information, where the impedance limits of Z at 100kHz are given. Is that your capacitor I've underlined in red?

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 11, 2024, 07:00:50 pm
content: Quote from: indman on September 11, 2024, 06:44:59 pmYes, that's the one. Those are the claims at 20C and -10C. Retailers like Mouser all list the target at 21mΩ, but of course no temperature is given. My test you quoted was at 1kHz, I also posted results at 100kHz and 118kHz depending on room temperature.

author: BillyO
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 11, 2024, 07:11:13 pm
content: I was able to reproduce your 0,0,0 result using a known bad TIP30B.Here is a comparison between the GM328 and the FNIRSI with a good A004B. Notice the much smaller Ie on the FNIRSI. Perhaps it's Ib is too low for marginal transistors.

author: indman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 11, 2024, 07:16:43 pm
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on September 11, 2024, 07:00:50 pmMaybe I missed your results at 100kHz and 118kHz? I only see 2 photos that were taken on the IM3570.Based on the Z=21mΩ reading, your capacitor is within the manufacturer's stated specifications. What ESR and Z does the ST-42 show at 10kHz for this capacitor?

author: BillyO
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 11, 2024, 07:34:02 pm
content: LOL!So, does anyone else have a TIP147 around? NONE of my 4 testers can test this transistor!Ahh...

author: indman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 11, 2024, 07:51:39 pm
content: TIP147- This is a Darlington transistor, which has 2 built-in resistors in the base-emitter circuit. Such transistors cannot be correctly detected on these testers.

author: BillyO
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 11, 2024, 08:45:42 pm
content: Quote from: indman on September 11, 2024, 07:51:39 pmIndeed. I found out they have problems with the NPN version too, the TIP142. I don't have any small darlingtons to try out.Also, They do seem to have more troubles with power PNP more than power NPN. Small signal transistors of both types do not seem to bother them.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 11, 2024, 08:58:44 pm
content: Quote from: indman on September 11, 2024, 07:16:43 pmAttached are the 100kHz and 118kHz screenshots, note that they were taken at different room temperatures, hence the change.At 1kHz the ST42 makes sense and Z/ESR agree, but at 10kHz Z makes sense, and ESR is too low.

author: BillyO
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 11, 2024, 09:10:04 pm
content: Why are Z and ESR the same here? The Z for a cap that big (1000uF) @ 100kHz should be about 1.6mOhm, right?

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 11, 2024, 09:59:06 pm
content: Quote from: BillyO on September 11, 2024, 09:10:04 pmOh, I dunno. Educate me. 😉ETA: I looked at the 1kHz measurements, and I guess they're better because they're not the same. I'll test again with the tweezers and see what it looks like after open/short correcting again.ETA2: I tested again with the ST42 and at 1kHz Z was around 176mΩ with ST42@1kHz, with ESR at 19.23mΩ. I'm going to ask Shannon about the 10kHz results.

author: BillyO
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 11, 2024, 10:09:47 pm
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on September 11, 2024, 09:59:06 pmI am asking in earnest. Back when I learned this stuff Zc was strictly the impedance due to the capacitance ESR was everything else. Zc is dependant on frequency and capacitance alone, ESR is, well entangled with just about everything.I could certainly see a funky 1000uF cap have an ESR of 21mOhm, but would not expect Z to be anything other than 1.6mOhm @ 100kHz. So, why is the Hioki reporting it as 21mOhm? The specifics here are not important, just that I would not expect ESR and Z to be exactly the same (unless they were).Also, I can't really make out what the capacitance really is. Your previous posts mentioned 1000uF. Those last pictures - one looks like it indicates 3..something uF (two decimal points) the other shows 31.something

author: BillyO
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 11, 2024, 10:33:00 pm
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on September 11, 2024, 09:59:06 pmOne would expect Z to go up at a lower frequency. Z for a 1000uf Capacitor should be around 159mOhm @ 1kHz.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 11, 2024, 10:40:40 pm
content: Quote from: BillyO on September 11, 2024, 10:09:47 pmI didn't know at all what to expect for Z on any capacitor. I haven't paid any attention until now. This really is me learning. 😉The C value for a 1mF cap at 100kHz is bullshit (at least on any meter I've tried). 1kHz or lower will give a better C reading. At 5Hz it's 952.5µF, drops to 909.8µF at 1kHz, then down to 803.8µF at 10kHz. Anything higher is getting silly. But for some reason 100kHz is standard for ESR ratings. 🤷At no point did Z come close to 1.6mOhm. My guess is that since the C value can't actually be seen correctly by the meters at 100kHz, Z won't make sense based on nominal values.Measured C @ 5Hz = 952.554µF. Expected Z = 33.4165Ω. Measured Z = 41.7734ΩMeasured C @ 1kHz = 909.836µF. Expected Z = 174.9mΩ. Measured Z = 176.98mΩMeasured C @ 10kHz = 803.876µF. Expected Z = 19.8mΩ. Measured Z = 29.94mΩMeasured C @ 100kHz = -279.528µF. Eh, good luck.The IM3570 was calibrated properly (TH26048A fixture) and set for low Z mode, but only had a few minutes of warmup time.Thanks,Josh

author: BillyO
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 11, 2024, 10:51:21 pm
content: So I misspoke earlier. Hioki is correct: Z = Rs + iXc, Where Rs=ESR. So I answered my own question, but I had to go back to my texts to refresh my 67yo memory.Xc is the capacitive reactance and: Xc = 1/(2*Pi*f*C). So, as frequency goes up, the reactance gets smaller, and as frequency goes down Xc gets larger.ESR specifications are done at a frequency where Xc is very small compared to Rs (ESR). So basically where Z is essentially equal to Rs.Your are quite correct in that capacitance readings are better at lower frequencies for the inverse reason. At sufficiently lower frequencies Rs is very small compared to Xc, such that there is little contribution to the determination of C from Rs.So, why not use 1MHz to determine ESR? Good question. As frequencies rise other factors become more dominant. For example, series inductance becomes more and more of a factor as the frequency rises and at some point it will dominate all the other measurements.BTW, those tweezers are doing a phenomenal job. If you do the math, both the reading at 10kHz and at 1kHz make perfect sense.BTBTW: Given the above and looking at your results from the IM3570. We have @100kHz ESR=19.29mOhm and @4Hz we can calculate Xc @ 39.8ohm, so the Z measurement of 41.8 is not very far off at all.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 11, 2024, 11:09:25 pm
content: Quote from: BillyO on September 11, 2024, 10:51:21 pmI agree, the tweezer still impress me in general. However, the ESR reading at 10kHz doesn't make sense to me.

author: BillyO
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 11, 2024, 11:17:12 pm
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on September 11, 2024, 11:09:25 pmYeah, maybe, but it's fairly consistent. Given an Xc of about 160mOhm @1kHz, add to that about 20mOhm of ESR and you get a Z of 180mOhm @ 1Khz, which is not far off your 176mOhm.BTW, how are you generating the Ohm symbol?

author: BillyO
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 11, 2024, 11:21:27 pm
content: Quote from: BillyO on September 11, 2024, 11:17:12 pmΩ Ω Ha! I figured it out!! Ω ΩI guess you can teach an old dog new tricks!

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 11, 2024, 11:26:27 pm
content: Quote from: BillyO on September 11, 2024, 11:21:27 pmI use Alt+234. There's other ways too.

author: BillyO
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 11, 2024, 11:29:00 pm
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on September 11, 2024, 11:26:27 pmYup, that's what I found. Google is and old dog's best friend.

author: mawyatt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 12, 2024, 12:36:10 am
content: Quote from: BillyO on September 11, 2024, 10:51:21 pmIt's good to see folks search out things on their own rather than always relying one others, nice work!!WRT to the IM3570 measurements from Josh, we've including a plot of a frequency sweep of a High Quality Low ESR Polypropylene capacitor. Here you can see the Impedance Z and the ESR together as frequency sweeps, note the series resonance where the ESL (Equivalent Series Inductance) series resonates with the capacitive reactance revealing the leftover Real Part Impedance as simply ESR. Also, note how Z increases with frequency after the series resonance null, here you are seeing the effects of the ESL inductive reactance.High "Q" capacitors like shown usually exhibit a sharp "null", whereas lower "Q" like the Polymer show broader behavior.https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/lcr-meter-plot-software/msg4774100/#msg4774100We've posted numerous threads wrt to LCR Meters, Measurements and Fixtures, check these out if interested.Anyway, hope this helps.Best,

author: BillyO
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 12, 2024, 12:52:51 am
content: Quote from: mawyatt on September 12, 2024, 12:36:10 amThanks. I used to know much of this stuff about 43 years ago just before I got seduced by the dark side (IT). Back then a young family meant my need for money exceeded my love for the physics of electronics.Nice curves you have there! Yes, I see what your talking about. Looks like 300kHz would be an ideal frequency to measure ESR on the polypropylene cap and about 100kHz for the polymer job. .

author: mawyatt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 12, 2024, 01:04:52 am
content: BTW we had no idea how to display ohms either....so learned something new on Mac option Z = ΩBest,

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 12, 2024, 01:39:47 am
content: Quote from: mawyatt on September 12, 2024, 12:36:10 amA great point, as always. The cap I was using is an electrolytic. Here's what that looks like across the range. You can see where there's a small section of overlap.

author: mawyatt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 12, 2024, 02:38:49 am
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on September 12, 2024, 01:39:47 amCan the IM3570 show Z and R in Log/Decade format vs. Log/Decade Frequency?This should show Z and R in more detail around the resonate frequency area.Best,

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 12, 2024, 02:53:08 am
content: Quote from: mawyatt on September 12, 2024, 02:38:49 amI was already screwing around with zooming in using a shorter frequency range. I tried messing with setting Y to log instead of X (and with both set to log). Let me know what you think, or if I should set something specific.I made some firmware feature update suggestions including being able to capture any screen. I hope they actual do some of the changes I suggested.Thanks,Josh

author: TheDefpom
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 12, 2024, 04:41:32 am
content: FNIRSI sent me one of these to review, I recorded the video yesterday which resulted in 12GB of footage to edit, I intend to do that this weekend and expect to release the review next week.

author: mawyatt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 12, 2024, 01:08:47 pm
content: @ Josh,We should probably take this over to the IM3570 thread, try a much wider sweep sat 100 to 1MHz Log Scale and post on the IM3570 thread.Best,

author: indman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 12, 2024, 02:44:23 pm
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on September 11, 2024, 08:58:44 pmHmm.. I have no serious complaints about the ST42 in terms of ESR measurements; based on your photos, there are more questions about the Hioki results. In order not to clutter this topic with unnecessary information, I moved my answer to your topic herehttps://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hioki-im3570-lcr-impedance-analyzer/50/

author: 1audio
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 13, 2024, 09:58:11 pm
content: I just got one as well. Not as useful as I hoped. Doesn't understand many Jfets. And testing TO92 transistors in IC sockets is not as easy as it seems it should be. I was hoping for more usability. I have a vintage M3 tester that does more and better. Just not as pretty.

author: TheDefpom
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 13, 2024, 10:02:01 pm
content: I just finished editing my review video, got it down to 31 minutes from nearly an hour of footage, I plan to release it on Tuesday night NZ time.

author: GuustFlater89
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: September 17, 2024, 08:21:46 pm
content: Quote from: TheDefpom on September 13, 2024, 10:02:01 pmToo bad Fnirsi did not take the effort to update the device sent to you to the latest firmware 1.05. The video shows 1.02... 1.05 seems to fix some annoying issues like unrecognised/wrong recognised components.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2024, 08:31:47 pm
content: Quote from: GuustFlater89 on September 17, 2024, 08:21:46 pmSomebeing the key word, as there's still a lot left to be desired with the device.

author: BillyO
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2024, 08:38:51 pm
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on September 17, 2024, 08:31:47 pmIt's as good as some and better than most. None of these little things are, or ever will be, perfect.At least this one provides a civilized means to update the firmware. Therein lies hope ..

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2024, 08:40:52 pm
content: Quote from: BillyO on September 17, 2024, 08:38:51 pmThe DSO-TC3 was better in every regard for me, and at least 5 times faster identifying transistors. It also has firmware updates. That said, I wouldn't hold my breath for Fnirsi to give many firmware updates. Especially not after the next new device that does the same stuff is released in a different shaped case.

author: Andrey_Ak
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2024, 06:54:52 pm
content: The device is crude, not modified.Like previous Fnirsi toys, it does not measure the ESR of capacitors correctly.It does not measure the ESR, but simply shows pre-programmed ESR values based on the capacitance of the capacitor!Even the old original LCR-TC1 transistor testers show the correct values.Here is a 1.5uF x 400v capacitor that should show an ESR of about 25 ohms, the old TC1 shows close to the actual 21 ohms.And the Fnirsi toy gives a completely wrong value of 4.9 ohms.The Fnirsi tester is not suitable for measuring the ESR of capacitors.This 1.5uF x 400v capacitor was tested on expensive Der EE DE-5000 and RuoShui 4091C devices,its actual ESR is approximately 30 ohms. Updating the Fnirsi firmware to the latest 1.0.5 also did not help.

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2024, 07:28:17 pm
content: The problem with that newTransistortester clone is that the Chinese manufacturer simply copies a modified OSHW firmware (the Transistortester k-firmware in this case) to a different MCU. The ESR measurement method is written and optimized for the ATmega family. Porting it to a different MCU will take a lot of effort. My advice would be to stay away from any clone with an alternative MCU.

author: indman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2024, 07:40:33 pm
content: Quote from: Andrey_Ak on September 08, 2024, 05:12:45 pmSo, you can now add another FNIRSI LCR P1 to these FNIRSI DSO TS3 and TS2!Quote from: madires on October 02, 2024, 07:28:17 pmMadires, as always, gave very practical advice, golden words!

author: Andrey_Ak
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2024, 07:53:27 pm
content: There is one clone of the LCR-TC1 with the APT32F172 controller, which also works correctly and measures as well as the LCR-TC1 with the original ATmega328 controller.Quote from: indman on October 02, 2024, 07:40:33 pmI don't have a DSO TS3 and TS2, I didn't buy these toys.

author: mawyatt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2024, 07:54:20 pm
content: Quote from: Andrey_Ak on October 02, 2024, 06:54:52 pmIf this is true, and not questioning so, then our decision awhile back to avoid all Fnirsi products seems justified. We just overlooked the Fnirsi ST1 Tweezers in favor of the Zone MD1 which were just received, seems like another good decision to avoid Fnirsi!!Don't like to bash products, but this is not a bug, oversight, or UI quirk, but a deliberate attempt to mislead and cover up a lacking instrument capability and totally misrepresent instrument measurement results! Totally unacceptable behavior by Fnirsi IMOAnyway, thanks for pointing out this shortcoming.Best,

author: Andrey_Ak
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2024, 07:59:57 pm
content: Quote from: mawyatt on October 02, 2024, 07:54:20 pmI created a dispute on aliexpress where I bought this tester, and also wrote an email to the official Fnirsi support service.

author: indman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2024, 08:03:39 pm
content: Quote from: Andrey_Ak on October 02, 2024, 07:53:27 pmThe clones on the APT32F172 MCU also have a host of other disadvantages compared to the original AVR. You just haven't tested it thoroughly enough.In my opinion, there is no alternative to the transistor tester as an inexpensive multifunctional device on the ATmega644/1284 MCU!The ATmega328/324 is also good, but because of the insufficient memory size, it is less relevant now.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2024, 08:37:21 pm
content: Quote from: mawyatt on October 02, 2024, 07:54:20 pmIndeed, Fnirsi only makes toys. I have the DSO-TC3, and I was aware it was a toy when I bought it. I like it for what it is. It does better than the P1 at detecting transistors, and the scope was good enough for testing outer foil position on certain capacitors.Nobody should buy anything that says Fnirsi on it and expect any type of a precision instrument.

author: BillyO
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2024, 08:44:17 pm
content: Quote from: Andrey_Ak on October 02, 2024, 06:54:52 pmNo, it doesn't. I do not know what it is doing, but I know it its not doing this. I tested 10 100uF capacitors, some used, several different voltages and several different manufacturers. They returned very different values for ESR.Stop repeating stuff you saw or heard someone else spout. It makes you sound like a flat earther.Quote from: Andrey_Ak on October 02, 2024, 06:54:52 pmLike to place a bet on that?Quote from: Andrey_Ak on October 02, 2024, 06:54:52 pmNone of these things can be counted to give a good reading of ESR.

author: Phil1977
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2024, 08:53:34 pm
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on October 02, 2024, 08:37:21 pmIt seems FNIRSI just scans the chinese market for products that are cheap and make good revenue. Then they design a little fancier housing and sell them for a little more than the version out of the wild.They have a few good products like the SG04, the spot-welder and also the LCR-tweezer. E.g. the SG04 can't be called just a toy, it´s more kind of a backup tool for experts.But this LCR-P1 seems to be better avoided.

author: indman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2024, 09:00:28 pm
content: Quote from: Andrey_Ak on October 02, 2024, 06:54:52 pmNo, I don't think it's what you're suggesting. Asmadirescorrectly pointed out, clones with an alternative MCU use an ESR measurement algorithm that is very roughly copied from the original and not adapted to the capabilities of the other controller. Therefore, for some capacitors it will show values close to the real ones, and for others on the contrary it will be wrong 10-100 times.

author: cahillsr
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: November 02, 2024, 01:00:21 pm
content: Lcr-p1 does not read esr correctly tested with newest firmware 1.06. I have many of these component testers and find the bside esr 02

author: AndreasF78
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: November 18, 2024, 09:30:15 am
content: I have been testing my recently acquired LCR-P1 this weekend, R and C testing (and some transistors) seem to work basically OK - but I noticed some very strange results when testing diodes. It seems the polarity does not show up correctly.I tested 1N4148 - shows 680 mV forward voltage (OK) but does not identify polarity (regardless of connection), 1N4007 (685 mV, OK - but again polarity is not detected), 1N5818 Schottky (shows as Resistance 38.9 Ohm in forward direction and Resistance 4,56 MOhm in backward direction), BAT43 (shows 345 mV in forward direction and 24.96 MOhm in backward direction).I had the same behavior with older (1.0.3 or 1.0.4) firmware and recent 1.0.6 firmware.Could anyone try if this is a device issue or if I just have a junk model?

author: BillyO
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2024, 03:06:00 pm
content: Same thing with mine.We should all try to report this to FNIRSI.Edit: I have reported the problem referencing Post #123 above. Let's see what happens.FNIRSI Customer Support: support@fnirsi.comOr their Info email: info@fnirsi.com

author: BillyO
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2024, 03:04:44 am
content: Here is the reply I got from FNIRSI.QuotePlease folks, add you voice to this and let's get our concerns addressed. At least at FNIRSI there is someone at the other end offering to help. If your TC-1, TC-4, TC-7 is not working right, well, you are on your own.

author: derwhalfisch
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: November 30, 2024, 12:06:22 pm
content: Has anyone used it connected to a PC for the 'data export'? I'd love to see how that works (if it works).

author: zenon
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: January 08, 2025, 01:56:05 pm
content: LCR-P1 Firmware v1.0.72025.01.071.0.71. Modify part of the double diode and diode can not test the problem2. Modify part of the triode pin serial number is messed up problemhttps://drive.google.com/file/d/1ov6j6qDWejzmLdUSdjI1Biaitw_gOh88/view

author: AndreasF78
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: January 08, 2025, 03:16:24 pm
content: I did a quick test of this recent 1.0.7 firmware: Now all diode types are identified correctly as diodes (in both directions), but still the polarity is not detected at all. So it seems a rather gradual improvement. No idea why it can be that difficult to identify a diode polarity

author: Paldin
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: January 08, 2025, 04:27:54 pm
content: Same issues with diodes/transistors polarity on v1.0.7 . It also shows to me 10M resistor as 8M compared to around 9M on v1.0.5 . If they didn't fix it until now, I wouldn't rely on a fix and return the device.

author: HezkyDen
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: January 10, 2025, 07:58:23 pm
content: This test meter has also problem with NPN transistor, see the first picture,about polarity of silicon diodes was written before (the second picture)

author: BillyO
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2025, 01:32:14 am
content: I think they are too busy developing new products. I wish they would come here to the forum and engage by at least looking at the threads relating to their products. We are doing a lot of testing for them and they should take advantage of it to improve their products.For instance, I do not think they have a single product with banana sockets at the the correct standard spacing. I have seen wider and narrower but never correct. WTF?That said, their products do seem to be getting better over time, but they could get better much quicker if they took a little input from their target market.With this product they have released 3 firmware versions in less than 5 months. They may get it right yet.

author: 1audio
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2025, 04:55:51 am
content: The Banana plug spacing (3/4") has been a problem with "consumer" oriented gear. Its the same as an EU 2 pin plug and thats considred a NO-NO in EU CE parlance. Big nusiance for audio amps. Different spacing is a work around. However it may not be an issue for industrial/professional products. Do they see this as pro or conumer?

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2025, 04:18:09 pm
content: Quote from: 1audio on January 28, 2025, 04:55:51 amFnirsi doesn't make any pro products, or care about them. Their business model is "new and cheap." Sell a bunch of crap, make a new shinier version, repeat.

author: Paul T
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2025, 12:24:58 pm
content: Quote from: BillyO on November 19, 2024, 03:04:44 amLooks like a form letter to me. I’d rather use my TC-7 than be fooled around with empty promises. The only way to get the full attention of companies like this is make a video about the problems with the unit and get it watched by a lot of people.

author: BillyO
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2025, 02:44:11 pm
content: Quote from: Paul T on January 29, 2025, 12:24:58 pmGood idea, and a great way to add your voice. We'd all like to see your video. Do you have a link to it, or will you supply one when it's up?

author: Paul T
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2025, 02:59:30 pm
content: I do not have this unit, someone else will need to do it.

author: Paldin
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: February 23, 2025, 06:02:52 pm
content: Fnirsi informed me they made a new version of the 1.0.7 firmware that address the diode/transistor issue.

author: BillyO
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2025, 06:12:40 pm
content: It's been out since January 8th.There are still some bugs though.Oh, wait! The current V1.0.7 is different than the older one. It has a new date on it of Feb 21st. Hmm, will have to give it a try!Old V1.0.7 log says:QuoteNew V1.0.7 log says:Quote

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2025, 06:18:48 pm
content: Quote from: BillyO on February 23, 2025, 06:12:40 pmYou'd think they could count above 7. Maybe that explains the bugs? 🤣

author: BillyO
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2025, 07:11:49 pm
content: Tried the update to the "new" V1.0.7.It now gets the direction of diodes and transistors correctly.It also seems a little faster, but I did not rigorously compare before and after.

author: Evi
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 02, 2025, 11:17:08 am
content: 30 - 100 ohms defines as two diodes in series. V 1.0.7

author: zenon
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: April 11, 2025, 11:09:24 am
content: LCR-P1 Firmware v1.0.81. Fixed the bug of misdetecting diodes with resistance less than 100 ohms2. Fixed the bug of mismatched pin numbers of some transistorshttps://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0694/8310/2426/files/LCR-P1_Firmware_v1.0.8.zip?v=1744257533

author: splitchipper
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: April 16, 2025, 02:55:04 pm
content: I applied update 1.0.8.I am regretting this purchase. When I insert a transistor and try to identify the leads, I get completely different results depending on the orientation. C and E are often swapped like HezkyDen reported in this post back in January:Quote from: HezkyDen on January 10, 2025, 07:58:23 pm

author: BillyO
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 16, 2025, 04:52:32 pm
content: It does not seem to be happening with mine. I tested the following: 2N3904, 2N3906, 2N7000 and a BS250.They were all tested correctly. I wonder if they have some consistency issues?You do realize the pin numbers reported are the pin number shown on the test socket, not the pin numbers of the transistor, right?

author: RAPo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 16, 2025, 05:15:58 pm
content: same here no problems.Quote from: BillyO on April 16, 2025, 04:52:32 pm

author: splitchipper
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: April 17, 2025, 01:34:55 pm
content: I have a KSC2383 (NPN) here. It test correctly in one orientation, but flip it around and C and E are swapped on the display.I have a KSA992 handy too, and that tests correctly in various orientations. But that is PNP.So... the firmware seems to be... half baked, at best. This is such a basic function, that it is inconceivable they have not gotten it right yet.

author: IAmBack
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2025, 02:17:09 pm
content: New 1.09 firmware is available."202504151.0.9--1. Fixed 10M measurement failure bug'NPN transistor legs still with wrong recognition.

author: jebem
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2025, 04:52:41 pm
content: Quote from: IAmBack on May 27, 2025, 02:17:09 pmGot my unit with FW v1.07.It can't identify the NPN transistors pinout correctly.It is incapable to identify the Collector and the Emitter. It keeps telling me that a C is a E and vice-versa.As others reported above, the firmware version1.09did not fix this issue.It keeps telling me that the Collector is the Emitter and vice-versa,as long as the silkscreen label is facing the user.However, if I flip it around, then it will match the correct pinout.I am using the upper second column of slots 1,2,3 to insert the DUT. Same result using the 1st column of 1,2,3 slots, or the lower 1,2,3 slots.The first transistor I tried was a plain vanilla TO-92 2SC1815GR NPN transistor - Got a wrong pinout.The second one is a TO-92 2N5551B NPN - Again got a wrong pinout.I stopped there as I do not have spare time to keep checking this unit for now.I was checking the results against a cheap Multi-function tester TC1, and datasheets to be sure.How hard is to identify a Collector and a Emitter in such a generic NPN transistors?What special specification the above NPN transistors have that is causing confusion on the Fnirsi tester?As it is, the LCR-P1 can not be trusted to check transistors.It is a pity because I really like the design and the alleged ability to measure Zenner diodes (did not test it so far, I am afraid of what I might find).Note: I also own a Fnirsi LCR ST1 tweezers and so far I could not find issues using it.Pictures:2SC1815GR_facing_wrong: 2SC1815GR with silkscreen facing user - TC1 reads the pinout correctly, while LCR-P1 confuses E and C.2SC1815GR_OK_pinout: 2SC1815GR with silkscreen facing user - Pinout correctly identified by the TC1 meter.2SC1815GR_wrong_pinout: 2SC1815GR with silkscreen facing user - Pinout incorrectly identified by the LCR-P1 meter.2SC1815GR_flipped_OK: 2SC1815GR with silkscreen flipped around - Both meters correctly identified the pinout.2N5551B_facing_wrong: 2N5551B with silkscreen facing user - TC1 reads the pinout correctly, while LCR-P1 confuses E and C.2N5551B_OK_pinout: 2N5551B with silkscreen facing user - Pinout correctly identified by the TC1 meter.2N5551B_wrong_pinout: 2N5551B with silkscreen facing user - Pinout incorrectly identified by the LCR-P1 meter.2N5551B_flipped_OK: 2N5551B with silkscreen flipped around - Both meters correctly identified the pinout.FNIRSI_FW_V_1.0.9: My unit running firmware 1.0.9.By looking into the pictures, we can see that the LCR-P1 is not checking which pin is the Collector - It just defines a slot number as being the Collector, no matter how you insert the DUT into the slots. This indicates that the programmer is not coding the required routine to identify where the Collector actually is.Just my opinion, I might be wrong, as well they are identifying the NPN pinouts.

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2025, 05:53:40 pm
content: Quote from: jebem on August 09, 2025, 04:52:41 pmDoes that happen only with NPNs, or also with PNPs?

author: jebem
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2025, 01:45:51 pm
content: Quote from: madires on August 09, 2025, 05:53:40 pmI can't say, as my unit is already packed and stored away as acollector's special buggy editionIf and when the manufacturer releases yet another firmware version, I will try it again.However, according to what others have been reporting, this issue have been detected only on NPN transistors and apparently not all of them are triggering the issue.