Hugo, 14, electrocuted in his bath because of his mobile phone ! - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: oldway
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 14, 2018, 11:25:15 am
content: http://www.dhnet.be/regions/charleroi-centre/hugo-14-ans-electrocute-dans-son-bain-a-cause-de-son-gsm-5aa66ab8cd7063d5672f4d7fThe GSM was charging and the charger had an insulation fault.One can not let to emphasize the danger of these crap and poor quality battery chargers.Okay, handle a device connected to the sector when you're in your bath, it's a complete mistake .....But there are many other circumstances that can give the same result .... for example, manipulate your mobile phone when you touch a metal tap mounted on a metal pipe.

author: Cyberdragon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 14, 2018, 08:00:20 pm
content: Not this again.As has been discussed before, crap chargers are not the main issue. It's using an unprotected (non-GFI) in the bathroom period!

author: CNe7532294
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 14, 2018, 08:08:11 pm
content: Why are people so daft as to use unnecessary electronics (like a phone) near water sources. I do not understand.That being said, GFI sockets should be present when using things like a hair blower or powered toothbrush. It sad if there was none at all.

author: Ampera
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 14, 2018, 08:14:25 pm
content: I just can't get the mindset of a person who can't put their phone down for the 30 minutes it requires to take a bath. GFCIs in bathrooms are required by law in the US, and households without them are idiot traps waiting to happen, but I wouldn't blame the charger, or even the outlet, I would blame the chuckleduck who decided that electronics near water was a good idea. Now we are gonna have to start putting GFCIs directly into phone chargers like we do on toasters and hair dryers.

author: capt bullshot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 14, 2018, 08:18:09 pm
content: Quote from: Cyberdragon on March 14, 2018, 08:00:20 pmUsing his brains would have saved him (didn't read the article, just a guess), not the GFCI. To me it looks like just another darwin award.

author: llkiwi2006
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 14, 2018, 08:43:29 pm
content: Quote from: capt bullshot on March 14, 2018, 08:18:09 pmPeople need to be educated on the dangers of mains electricity and dodgy chargers from china.I would much rather see the entire house be protected by a GFCI, but they seem to have issues with false tripping due to old and leaky appliances, and they are not cheap so they don't get installed when not required by the electrical code.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 14, 2018, 09:05:14 pm
content: Quote from: capt bullshot on March 14, 2018, 08:18:09 pmThe guy is 14. There is no physics education in those ages in many places, and some are just not going to realize the dangers involved. Also today it seems to be more important to have gender studies and literature for 12 years studied than talking about these topics at school:Electricity and how not to die.How to not spend all your money.How do you become a useful person in society.Swimming, aka how not to die in 2m deep water.

author: Cyberdragon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 14, 2018, 09:20:57 pm
content: Quote from: NANDBlog on March 14, 2018, 09:05:14 pmYep, electrical safety should be part of education.But there should always be a GFI, because kids will be dumb anyway (especially if they're really young). Although if there are no plugs in the bathroom, they'll probably just run a lead (the parents would to for shaving and blowing and stuff). So again, safety education.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 14, 2018, 09:37:18 pm
content: Quote from: Cyberdragon on March 14, 2018, 09:20:57 pmThe article is from Belgium, where it is mandatory for all new installations to have a GFI.But back in the day, it wasnt. In fact in some EU countries, the outlets in the bathroom were handled very differently. I've been to houses, where all the outlets come with earth pin, except the bathroom.

author: Ampera
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 14, 2018, 09:41:23 pm
content: My grandfather's house, underneath the sink, has an ungrounded 20A outlet...what

author: helius
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 14, 2018, 10:11:59 pm
content: Quote from: NANDBlog on March 14, 2018, 09:37:18 pmSome bathrooms have 120V "shaver" sockets that are transformer isolated. Those do not need a ground pin.

author: CNe7532294
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2018, 12:38:01 am
content: Quote from: NANDBlog on March 14, 2018, 09:05:14 pmI know that this unfortunate incident didn't take place in the UK but I believe kids are educated there on electricity. I heard about this coming from someone there. The kids have to eventually know how to set up their own plug since an appliance's mains comes with bare wires you have to screw in yourself. Not sure how true it is nowaday though. Picture related.

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2018, 12:45:42 am
content: Quote from: TwoOfFive on March 14, 2018, 08:14:25 pmSmart guy, looking ahead. "What do I do if I run out of shampoo half way?" I know! I will bring the phone with so I can do a search if I run across a problem washing my hair.Quote from: TwoOfFive on March 14, 2018, 08:14:25 pmIn the USA, GFCI is required fornew housessince the regulation took effect (1970's I think, then added rules in 1980's), but for an old house that is still standing, it is not covered. A different sets of rules apply when a house is sold. Whether GFCI is part of it or not, those are beyond my knowledge.Old houses are all around. A little over 25 years ago (long but not that long), I looked at a used house. Electrically, the whole darn main is only 19amps! If the fridge is running, turning on the vacuum cleaner would probably take out your lights.

author: GreyWoolfe
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 15, 2018, 01:35:21 am
content: Quote from: TwoOfFive on March 14, 2018, 08:14:25 pmSWMBO has been known to regularly enjoy 2 hour baths in our nice deep soaker tub. That being said, there is no charger allowed in the bathroom, even though the outlet is gfci protected. Besides, her phone is IP67 rated, so no worries if she gets it wet.

author: helius
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2018, 06:27:42 am
content: Houses more than 40 years old are unlikely to be part of homeowner associations.

author: Ampera
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2018, 06:32:56 am
content: Ah yes, it is new houses that need them. I've just never really seen a house without them, and any person with any level of sense walking into a bathroom without one would immediately drop what they are doing, run to the store, and throw one in for 5 bucks.Whole house GFCIs are something I have NEVER seen here in the US. I'm not saying they don't exist, but if there is a fault to ground, usually the best protection there is, is the circuit breakers (most modern houses don't have fuses either, whereas modern European installations I've seen, which is one, usually have both).19A on an entire house sounds like a load of shit, but we do have some stupid issues with our house. Running the microwave and the air conditioner on the same circuit is one instance that has come up quite often (requiring a frequent run to the attic circuit breakers on some years).I have never EVER bought anything vaguely electric into the tub with me. It's how not to be a complete and total dumbass 101 in life, and I thought that was well known, but this appears to be a common occurrence. I'd hate to see these people on a camping holiday. When I went on mine, I actually sat there, enjoyed the weather, built fires, andhad fun. Maybe I'm just born old, but I don't get some people.Quote from: helius on March 15, 2018, 06:27:42 amI've never seen anything like that around here, or even heard of the concept until recently, or in big cities. I honestly find it to be a stupid idea, but that's the cold blooded American speaking inside of me not wanting other people to winge on about what I do to my own property.

author: IanMacdonald
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2018, 07:12:50 am
content: In the UK, all bathroom metalwork has to be earth bonded. This is to prevent any potential existing between pieces of metal.The issue with this concept is that it relies on there being absolutely no risk of touching a live terminal. Therefore, socket outlets in bathrooms are prohibited. If someone takes an extension into the bathroom, then the existence of numerous touchable earths actually increases the danger they are exposing themselves to.I believe the latest regs relax the bonding requirements if GFIs/RCDs are used.

author: Ampera
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2018, 08:12:03 am
content: Most plumbing in US households is grounded (I mean if you have a metal waste pipe that goes to the sewer, that's effectively one big grounding post) unless it's plastic or clay (the former of which is becoming increasingly popular)That always struck me odd that the UK bans outlets in bathrooms. Here in the US, GFCIs are generally required for wet environments, but there is no real ban that I know of.

author: Yellofriend
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2018, 08:17:01 am
content: Quote from: oldway on March 14, 2018, 11:25:15 amI tend to disagree. Chargers are not designed for underwater operation.A current leakage switch would have helped though.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2018, 09:28:06 am
content: Quote from: IanMacdonald on March 15, 2018, 07:12:50 amAdditionally, the only electrical sockets allowed in a bathroom are transformer isolated shaver sockets.

author: Electro Detective
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2018, 10:26:31 am
content: Transformer isolated or not, with a faulty charger this months Darwin Award winner would have got zapped regardlessBoth legs of the transformers output added with water and conductive phone 's e x y'metal parts will fix you real good with either a good terminal jolt or a gradual low current demiseSomeone should tell the phone junkies to take their chances hooking up to one of those common rechargeable battery devices,if they really must fondle their phone in the bathroomor check Facebook to see who else is in the bath taking selfies

author: Maxlor
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2018, 10:43:28 am
content: Hm... but GFIs need a bit of current to trip, don't they, on the order of 20mA? If this is leakage from a charger, might the current not be below the tripping threshold, but still be very dangerous to someone in the bathtub, possibly handling the phone with wet hands?As for the advice of not using a charger in the bathroom... it wasn't a thing when I was 14, but I probably would have disregarded the advice if it had been. I mean, not sticking things into the socket kinda made sense to me then, but chargers I would have handled all the time and they would have seemed perfectly fine to me, so I'd probably have evaded any lockouts with a extension cord too.

author: Red Squirrel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2018, 02:41:08 pm
content: I don't get why people bring their phone in the bath AND charge it at same time. Why not spend another period of the day to charge it if you absolutely need it in the bath.

author: Jeroen3
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2018, 02:56:22 pm
content: Quote from: Maxlor on March 15, 2018, 10:43:28 amMay trip from 0.5 In. Must trip at 1.0 Inwithin 300ms.30mA typical. However, older houses here have 100 or 300mA for the entire house fitted later. Before the fuses (real fuses).

author: CopperCone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2018, 03:01:13 pm
content: How do these faults even happen?Shitty enamel on the wire, bad fuse that lets the enamel burn, bad coating on the transformer core.. What else?I kinda blame cheap manufacturing and excessive minaturization for these problems.Some phones are advertized as being waterproof and sitting in the shower is pretty relaxing.For something that has such a propensity for being handled while plugged in it should be built better.

author: Jeroen3
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2018, 03:20:31 pm
content: 0603 Y capacitors.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2018, 04:59:36 pm
content: Quote from: Electro Detective on March 15, 2018, 10:26:31 amThat's extremely unlikely to happen, with an isolation transformer powering the SMPS.

author: oldway
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2018, 06:46:52 pm
content: Glad to see that my post has provoked so many reactions.My goal was to remember the dangers of electricity and the importance of compliance with safety rules.I offer my condolences to the family of this young boy victim of an unfortunate accident.Even if for the experts of this forum, he has committed an obvious imprudence, it is certainly not his fault because he was not informed of the dangers of electricity.Despite all the very strict standards and regulations that exist in Belgium (GFI 30mA mandatory, ban electrical outlets near a water point, grounded conductive parts...) and in Europe (double insulation, compliance with safety rules, .. ..), the system was unable to avoid a tragedy ....We must learn a lesson: never neglect safety, whe are responsable of our own safety and for the safety of other people.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2018, 09:33:50 pm
content: Quote from: blueskull on March 15, 2018, 05:46:39 amRight now I am writing from a hotel, from The Netherlands, and non of the plugs have ground pin.

author: GreyWoolfe
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 15, 2018, 09:41:16 pm
content: Quote from: TwoOfFive on March 15, 2018, 06:32:56 amOur house was built in 1989 and didn't have a gfci in the bathroom. It didn't bother my wife or I when we bought it in 2004. When we remodeled the bathroom in 2010, I replaced the outlet with a gfci. When the city inspector came to do the final sign off on the plumbing rework, he noticed the addition. He looked at me with a raised eyebrow and I just smiled. He didn't say a word, just signed off on the permit. I should have pulled an electrical permit to change it because inspectors were going to come in and out to check the plumbing work but didn't want to spend the extra money and wait for a sign off just to change it.

author: Ampera
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2018, 09:50:08 pm
content: You need a permit to change an outlet?Damn, you need one for everything.

author: Electro Detective
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2018, 10:07:09 pm
content: Quote from: oldway on March 15, 2018, 06:46:52 pmWe who are electrical safety minded can nag other people till the cows come to water,but very few take warnings seriously till a mishap comes along and then they 'listen',the ones that live to tell of their 'adventure' are the lucky onesUnfortunately Hugo didn't make it, and unlikely any of his phone junkie age group will take it on board once the mourning is overThey should be worded up to leave their phones on charge in the bedroom, and go old school in the bath with comics... or 'magazines'Quote from: Hero999 on March 15, 2018, 04:59:36 pmMy old mate Murphy can make anything like that just happen...somehow

author: Cyberdragon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2018, 11:46:29 pm
content: The article said nothing about EXACTLY how he was electrocuted, it just said he was "handling" it. It's way to short and could be just oversimplified news spin (IE, he may have actually touched the mains).Again, it's not "OMG, kids and their phones these days!", it's "OMG, kids with electricity and water!". It would have been the same result if a girl was curling her hair in the tub. The parents should know there should be GFIs in the bathroom just in case the kids disregard their safety anyway. Some kids like to be defiant and do things just because you tell them not to (forbidden fruit principal).

author: Electro Detective
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2018, 02:26:42 am
content: If you're going to have faith in GFCI / RCDs I'd suggest having one in the bathroom as well as a main one at the switchboardIt's a good bet but not really that safe, especially if not tested often with an external trip deviceThose TEST buttons merely test the internals of the GFCI / RCD,it's not a REAL 'test' simulating a fault or dumbass family member or guest about to get zappedI believe a bathroom should have separate isolation from the rest of the building, consisting of a separate GFCI / RCD, a very fast MCB, and a thermal cutout breaker to cover most basesand if there are guests at the house, young children and phone junkies into water based selfie snapping, you can switch off power to the bathroom at will from the switchboard with a lock off device,so it's no longer your possible liability or problem...and continue boozing and blabbing away and let them fry themselves somewhere else

author: Cyberdragon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2018, 03:03:24 am
content: If you turn off the bathroom power, you'll create a wet floor + darkness situation...

author: IanMacdonald
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2018, 08:30:51 am
content: Best safety policy would be no exposed earths allowed in a bathroom. Require that metal fittings have a tough non-conducting coating.The situation is very similar to live work on high voltage gear. As soon as you earth yourself, any shock will be MUCH worse. When your hands or feet are wet, doubly so.It took a long, long time for the electrical industry to recognise that hand tools with insulating cases are much safer than those with earthed metal cases. Probably only came about when stats for electrocutions were analysed and it was found that metal cased tools were the usual culprits.

author: Electro Detective
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2018, 08:47:33 am
content: Quote from: Cyberdragon on March 16, 2018, 03:03:24 amI was referring to bathroom power sockets only, lighting is usually on separate circuitsIf they slip on the wet floor with or without lighting they deserve it for getting it wetI supply clean personal and floor towels, assuming most phone junkies at least know how to use them without googling itor posting the 'how to' question on FacebookEither way, whatever precautions taken to save lives, some bright spark will run an extension cord to the bathroom when I'm out, and get the party started

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2018, 08:53:48 am
content: Quote from: IanMacdonald on March 16, 2018, 08:30:51 amNo copper plumbing or stainless, chrome plated or heaven forbid, gold taps ?You best rethink that statement.

author: Electro Detective
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2018, 09:00:19 am
content: I've had a re-think tooBathroom door kept locked 24/7,anyone needing to use it gets searched for phones and chargers which must be handed over if foundand returned afterwardsAnyone not complying can go out in the rain with a bar of soap, BYO towel and mirror and rubber boots,and take their chances lightning won't come

author: Cyberdragon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2018, 03:20:05 pm
content: If you find a cord your kid ran into the bathroom. You unplug it immediately, bust in to see if they're alive, then whack them with the end of the cord.

author: Ampera
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2018, 04:04:02 pm
content: Quote from: Electro Detective on March 16, 2018, 08:47:33 amNot in my part of the US. Circuits tend to just be thrown together here. Our kitchen has 3 different circuits, and each of them are shared with 3-5 other rooms, including one on the third story. If the microwave and the AC take out a circuit, half the kitchen is out, half the upstairs lighting is out, but the fridge and stove timer are still on.

author: Lion_Tamer
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2018, 07:47:02 pm
content: Just to clarify the situation here in the UK:The electrical regulations are not retrospective, so as long as it meets the regulations in force at the time that it was installed then no upgrades have to be made - as the regulations get updated every 2 or 3 years that would create an astronomical amount of work.If an alteration is made to a circuit then that circuit must be brought up to current regulation standard.Current standards state that all final circuits within a domestic building (except for a couple of niche cases) must be protected by a 30mA RCD (GFI) - there are normally a minimum of 2 within the property so that you don't lose all power at once.Locations containing a bath or shower are classed as a special location with extra rules, one of these rules is that we cannot have a socket outlet within 3M of zone 1 (edge of bath), the only exception is a shaver socket with isolated transformer output, all the other electrical equipment can only be installed within certain zones.Jem

author: Ampera
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2018, 11:41:51 pm
content: In the US, outside of basic safety and national standards, like NEMA outlets, and mandating things like using conduits, and GFCIs in wet areas, all bets are off in the US. You can go from a sensibly wired house with logical circuit layout and nice 20A outlets and circuits, to a mess of a hodge podge with dual fuse boxes, a mix of NEMA 1-15, 1-20, 5-15, or 5-20 outlets, as well as dryer and stove outlets in incredibly weird places. I've even heard stories about circuit breakers being in bathrooms (and maybe even in the bathtub). Shuttered outlets are a new idea, and not present in most places. You can also go anywhere from oil, to natural gas, to electric, to even wood heating for water and ambient purposes.Don't even get me started on telecoms.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2018, 12:33:44 am
content: Quote from: Electro Detective on March 15, 2018, 10:07:09 pmWhen I said unlikely, I really meant virtually impossible.If the phone charger is powered from an isolated, switched mode power supply, run off an approved isolation transformer. How can one part of the phone be connected to one side of the isolation transformer's secondary and different part of the phone, to the other side of transformer's secondary? Even if the insulation inside the switched mode power supply failed, it would connect the whole phone to the same potential and no current would flow.This wouldn't happen in the UK, since there are no three pin outlets permitted in the bathroom and the isolation transformer protected shaver sockets have a two pin socket, which is incomparable with standard 3 pin mains plugs. The only way for this to happen would be for the person to plug an extension lead into the socket in another room and take it into the bathroom

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2018, 12:35:10 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on March 16, 2018, 11:18:10 pmWeren't they the ones to invent the LED bulb that has battery backup built in which still works on a usual switched lighting circuit?

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2018, 05:56:47 am
content: Quote from: CNe7532294 on March 15, 2018, 12:38:01 amHasn't been the case since around 1990, IIRC. Now pre-attached plugs are required by law.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2018, 02:33:55 pm
content: Yes, it's been law for all appliances sold in the UK to come pre-fitted with a mains plug, for a long time now. I remember seeing appliances sold without plugs as a child and thinking it was odd that he plug was sold separately. I don't think it's done much to improve electrical safety though as quite often pre-fitted plugs are poor quality.

author: Red Squirrel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2018, 02:37:46 pm
content: I read somewhere that selling without plug attached made it so the product is not considered finished. It got around some kind of tariff. Not a bad idea I guess.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2018, 03:19:43 pm
content: Quote from: Red Squirrel on March 17, 2018, 02:37:46 pmNah. It was simply because in the past, the UK had a smattering of different outlets in use, so a manufacturer couldn’t know which you had. And then, in typical inertia fashion, the tradition of selling without plugs continued until the law changed in the early 90s.https://www.nytimes.com/1992/01/31/world/mere-plug-at-the-wire-s-end-in-england-that-s-progress.html

author: Neilm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2018, 07:44:14 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on March 17, 2018, 03:19:43 pmGiven that the BS1363 plug was adopted shortly after WW2 (as a result of the copper shortage) I am surprised it too so long. That being said, I remember at about that time having to wire a plug as part of my pysics exam.

author: Electro Detective
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2018, 10:15:33 pm
content: Quote from: Hero999 on March 17, 2018, 12:33:44 amHere in Australia it's 3 pin sockets everywhere, and no transformer isolated sockets in any bathroom,it's straight up non stop 240 volts (650v peak to peak) all the way... and off to other side if you're not carefulA lot of house wiring is a mish mash 'make it up as you go' in a lot of low income burbs,and patched up 100 year old homes, some with same vintage wiringThis is why I stated Murphy can make zaps happen from a bad mix of the three wires and ground/earth, suss appliances,and even issues from adjoining properties is possible, even if your wiring is 100% regulation and 'safe'Don't get me started with 3 phase 4 pin and 5 pin and conductor sheath color fiascos going on at many shops and factories,and how they branch off to unlabelled standard 3 pin 240v outlets in pairs or threes, that may have Active to Active 440 volt potential between themThe 'She'll be right' attitude here in Australia can suck badly where electrical wiring is concernedIt's silly really, it's no big deal to diagnose, rectify, and get right using what's already in service, and pop on some labels

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2018, 08:05:45 pm
content: Quote from: blueskull on March 15, 2018, 05:46:39 amAt the risk of seeming presumptuous... Since you are not showing a USA flag, allow me to say a word or two about how that would go down in the USA. Even within the USA, the "coastals" would not understand the fly-over country folks. I had a hell of a culture shock many years back when I moved from the cities to the boonies, and then culture shock again when I move back to the cities from the boonies.re: "WTF are there still outlets in bathroom that don't have GFCI?"You bet! I have relatives living in the same house built since 1960's. University towns are different since they have faster cycle time. If you take a drive out into the boonies, you would likely see many houses well into their half-century mark.re: "Don't say the old houses are exempted by new NEC shit. HOAs can request house owners to do virtually anything regarding to their house, and a safe community adds value to houses, at the cost of literally <$100."It is a matter of perspective. Americans in generally don't like government forcing things upon them. That was the whole idea of the American Revolution. The more rural you go, the more they hold on to traditional thinking.HOA is not a governmental structure but more like a club which by joining legally binds you to association rules. HOA's are similar to owning a house in a golf course: i.e. you must be a member of that golf club to own a house on the golf course. Zoning board is part of thelocalgovernmental structure that deals with houses. HOA if exist would typically operate under Zoning Board governance in that area.Out in the boonies, such intrusion into peoples life and properties will not be taken kindly. I can picture the reaction of the home owners if the Zoning Board (or HOA) candidate campaign on increasing government intrusion. He will get something from the Home Owner's Ass for sure, however,this time Ass is not an abbreviation but the American spelling of Arse.There is almost no chance anylocalauthorities can dictate what kinds of light switch they use. Even cost of fire coverage probably could not force the change since in all likelihood fire coverage there are by volunteers. However, cost of house insurance would probably have strong leverage in affecting the change - if they decide to buy insurance for their houses.

author: gildasd
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2018, 10:38:40 pm
content: Not exactly sure about names in English;In Belgium (where the accident happened), the rules are clear for bathrooms;Two differential breakers in series, 300mA then 30mA.If anything is in zone 2 (as in within reach) then that needs separate 10mA breaker.Not sure that would have saved that kid from his stupidity.Source (p9 to 11):https://vivreensecurite.vincotte.be/fr/publications/download/installations-electriques-domestiques

author: helius
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2018, 02:52:36 am
content: Quote from: Rick Law on March 18, 2018, 08:05:45 pmbut NEC is just a model code that needs local government regulation to be enforced. You will find some places are stricter than others.Like anything in life it's a matter of tradeoffs. I certainly would not want to be in a place like the UK with an almost hysterical fear of electric shock—where people are so mindless as to place mains appliances on top of their tub while bathing. And yet that is what we have in TFA story.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2018, 03:24:07 am
content: Quote from: helius on March 15, 2018, 06:27:42 amThat doesn't make a lot of sense. I assume you're talking about a situation specific to your part of the world?

author: orin
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2018, 04:56:06 am
content: Quote from: helius on March 19, 2018, 02:52:36 amSince you mention light switches... There are forums that discuss the application of the NEC. At one point, I was replacing a light switch (allowed by local code) and it turned out it was on a 20A circuit.So, if you have a 20A circuit with 12 gauge wire and you have a light and light switch on the circuit somewhere. What rating should the switch have? (You have a choice of 15A or 20A.)

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 20, 2018, 04:00:32 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on March 18, 2018, 10:55:45 pmI guess any where you go, HOA's (and Zoning Boards) are NAZI's. You can always run for board membership and get things your way. That was how one of my neighbors got himself exempted from a boat load of rules. The only one around with a super-sized deck.Quote from: helius on March 19, 2018, 02:52:36 amBeside local, there is the County and State level. Most of the structural/electrical housing rules around here are State. Appearance, size, etc., are more local. As of the last time I thought about moving (around 5-10 years ago), GFCI would be applicable to new houses only. As long as the home owner stayed put, those regs do not apply.But, asblueskullpoint out, those outlets are cheap. If one is selling ones house, anything non-compliant would bring down the value of the house. It would be foolish for a seller not to spend the few bucks. (That was why I was looking up the regs.)Quote from: Mr. Scram on March 19, 2018, 03:24:07 amI would not be surprise if it is wide spread in the USA (that houses over 40yr is unlikely to be in a development).I lived in 4 different States, and spend a good bit of time in another two States. Housing Developments appear to be only near major cities/job-areas.Even in New Jersey less than 2-hours drive from NYC, housing development is not as wide spread as one may think and certainly recent. I live in a development (approx 25-30 yr old) - I was told by the township (while paying for sewage fee) that this was the first development in this township, first group of houses to have sewage connection instead of sewage tanks.In earlier times, it would be flatten the trees, split the lots, build houses on them, and off they go start selling. Just new houses along a new road. No setting up common/shared facilities which requires an HOA, and no common looks for houses... For those, I do not think of them as developments - they lack all "look alike" feel associated with developments. Those are just new houses along a new road.

author: Chris56000
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2018, 10:14:20 pm
content: Hi!If that poor kiddie was using a cheap eBay charger there's every possibility it may not have had any mains isolation at all - HV2405, etc., I've broken one or two of these things open myself and direct off-mains switch chips aren't unknown by any means - what makes it worse is the datasheets describe "portable or phone chargers" as one of the typical uses of these devices!There's no way that poor lad could have known that type of circuit was in use either - if he'd put it "wrong way round" the negative DC return could so easily be on the live side of the mains!In the old days when thermionic valves were used in TV sets the high-tension always came direct off the mains supplies as 50Hz isolated mains transformers were far too large, heavy and expensive for set-makers to contemplate! Even when colour TV became all solid-state it was well into the mid 1980s and after before set-makers designed Switch-mode transformers with fully isolated HT and feedback windings allowing a fully mains-isolated chassis!Chris Williams

author: helius
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 05, 2018, 02:00:57 am
content: Quote from: Rick Law on March 20, 2018, 04:00:32 amIn earlier times, it was fairly common for new developments to come with restrictive covenants, but the rules tended to be fixed in the deed language and not subject to the decisions of a corporation. I've looked them up in deed books, and seen them written in longhand: one included rules about setbacks, banned horse stables and alcohol sales, prohibited industrial works and tenements, and nothing else.

author: Ampera
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 05, 2018, 02:36:30 am
content: I think any argument here about the fault of the charger is a stupid one. Even if the charger had a major fault (as most cheap shit does), he didn't die from using a charger in bed, he died from being a jackass and using his phone in the bathtub. With all so nice and friendly LiPos stuck in modern phones, I'm surprised getting phones wet, and having what may very likely be a continual short through it doesn't blow up more phones.

author: Cyberdragon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 05, 2018, 05:45:44 pm
content: Quote from: TwoOfFive on April 05, 2018, 02:36:30 amBecause only crap phones aren't waterproof...

author: Ampera
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 05, 2018, 05:47:15 pm
content: Quote from: Cyberdragon on April 05, 2018, 05:45:44 pmYeah, but I've seen few wall chargers that claim to be so.It's a stupid idea even if it is waterproof.