New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 12, 2013, 02:47:04 am
content: http://www.home.agilent.com/en/pd-2270273-pn-34461A/digital-multimeter-6-digit-34401a-replacement-truevolt-dmmhttp://cp.literature.agilent.com/litweb/pdf/5991-1983EN.pdfYes, I have one.Yes, it's sexy

author: ben_r_
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2013, 02:51:29 am
content: Nice! Cant wait for the review!

author: ChrisGammell
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 12, 2013, 02:51:48 am
content: So nice. So cheap!

author: Fsck
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2013, 02:53:59 am
content: Hello sexy colour display.

author: robrenz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2013, 02:56:06 am
content: Finaly,Trend plot on a Agilent. Looks realy good

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 12, 2013, 03:05:31 am
content: Quote from: robrenz on June 12, 2013, 02:56:06 amThat green screen Fluke looks pretty 1980's now doesn't it

author: digsys
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 12, 2013, 03:12:36 am
content: Quote from: ChrisGammell$1,100-1,200 .. Guess you'd need to need all the fancy buttons :-)

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 12, 2013, 03:36:08 am
content: Quote from: digsys on June 12, 2013, 03:12:36 amUS$945 and $US1095

author: nukie
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2013, 03:43:53 am
content: I assume its made in Malaysia?

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 12, 2013, 03:45:48 am
content: Quote from: nukie on June 12, 2013, 03:43:53 amCorrectamundo.

author: AlfBaz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2013, 04:19:20 am
content: LXI GPIB optional

author: AlfBaz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2013, 05:09:36 am
content: That's odd the web page says "LAN/LXI (optional), GPIB (optional)"In the pdf under options it says "3446LANU Enable rear panel LAN/LXI web interface, ..." INCLUDED STANDARD.Just checked some more. It seems they have mixed it up on the web page. Its optional for the 60A, included for the 61A

author: fpga
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2013, 05:38:23 am
content: The 34461A looks very interesting -- nice specs, nice flashy new GUI, USB and LXI. Only thing they omitted was Capacitance measurement, which is of questionable value on a high end DMM.The cheaper 34460A is not much of a bargain compared to the 34461A. Half the precision of the 34461A, reduced capability, no LXI, no probes, they even took out the USB cable (cheapscates!).So my question, is the 34461A worth the 300USD over the 34450A? The 34450A has all of the features one would _need_ in a "budget" bench DMM. However the 34461A has 4x the precision, 6.5 digits, faster measurement rate, color GUI, LXI, etc.I really think that Agilent has done to the bench DMM market what they had done with the X2000/X3000 scopes to the scope market last year.

author: PA4TIM
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2013, 06:41:06 am
content: A keithley 2000 was allready cheaper as the Fluke and agilents and Keitley has just this month introduced some cheaper models. They are maybe not that fancy lookimg but they sure are good and especially accurate-over-time meters. But I never hear much over them on this forum.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 12, 2013, 06:43:50 am
content: Quote from: fpga on June 12, 2013, 05:38:23 amI agree.If you can afford $945 you can afford to spring the extra.QuoteThe ability to get trend plots and histograms in the unit (as opposed to PC control) is worth it's weight on gold to some people.QuoteNot quite that far, as there aren't any huge feature innovations here, but yeah, it's designed to give the competition a real kick up the butt.

author: Fsck
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2013, 07:08:46 am
content: Well DMM market is pretty stagnant. The 3458A is.. older than I am (the manual I have says Edition 1 came out in 1988)I'm kind of curious to know when Rigol's going to stick their finger in the 8.5d pot.

author: AlfBaz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2013, 07:32:24 am
content: A lot of companies seem to be doing this weird model placement. I know canon are doing it with their DSLR's.They bring out a new model that supposedly fits between existing models (although here they are suggesting it replaces the 34401) and then cram it full of features the next model up doesn't have but lacks some of the superiority in measurement accuracy (aka 34410)

author: fpga
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2013, 07:37:58 am
content: Could we have a quick, first impression, video on how the unit feels in your hands?Use it to make some measurements, especially the bar graph, histogram, trend plot, etc. Save some data to flash drive, is it fast enough to be usable? Is the display responsive? Any lag during measurements? Any lag on going through the menus? Or will you stick to your tradition of first taking it apart? We kind of know/expect that the insides will be first class, and the specs to be dead on, but want to know how well the unit lives up to usability and how well the new features actually work.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2013, 08:25:54 am
content: Quote from: AlfBaz on June 12, 2013, 04:19:20 amSeems entirely sensible that the baseline model has _some_ connectivity, via USB, and that others are options for people that need them.GPIB is surely on its way to the graveyard, and including it as standard on any gear nowadays would be an unnecessary expense for the majority of users.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2013, 09:12:09 am
content: I wonder if the quality of the solder joints is up to snuff?

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 12, 2013, 09:26:49 am
content: Quote from: fpga on June 12, 2013, 07:37:58 amI do could that if there is enough interest.I was planing on having a review and teardown ready on the release date (was supposed to be June 17th, don't know why it's early), but that's tight.I've had a quick play and it feels as good as it looks. No response issues, but I just played at home without measuring anything. My guess would have been it would have cost at least twice as much, but I only found at the price yesterday and was quite staggered.It runs windows CE, and I have been told I have pre-release firmware with a longer boot time, but seemed ok to me considering.

author: fpga
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2013, 09:44:23 am
content: Could we have a quick tour today?

author: AlfBaz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2013, 09:47:49 am
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on June 12, 2013, 08:25:54 amI'm not up to speed with communication offerings from new test gear, but if I don't see visa mentioned anywhere in USB connectivity does this mean you have to program each device using proprietary commands related to each devices' driver? If this is indeed true and you are paying 1k+ for a multimeter surely you intend on carrying out setups that involve coms with more than one instrument

author: Hypernova
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 12, 2013, 10:21:23 am
content: If it's anything like the scopes what you get with USB a also a USB serial SCPI interface, so ubiquitous SCPI command support should be there.

author: AlfBaz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2013, 10:26:58 am
content: Quote from: Hypernova on June 12, 2013, 10:21:23 amThanks, good to knowEdit: I guess I should do some reading to find out for my self, but if I have a bunch of code that does coms to instruments via gpib-32.dll, would I have to talk to these USB scpi instruments through some vendor specific dll or will the gpiib-32.dll handle it?

author: Hypernova
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 12, 2013, 10:39:40 am
content: Quote from: AlfBaz on June 12, 2013, 10:26:58 amNo idea about that since I've only played with Command Expert's Excel plug in, which does connection through Agilent IO library which treat all devices from different buses like they are just different addresses.

author: bingo600
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2013, 12:16:16 pm
content: Quote from: AlfBaz on June 12, 2013, 10:26:58 amAlfBaz google USBTMChttp://digital.ni.com/public.nsf/allkb/044FA220F32774ED86256DB3005850CA/BingoPs: How's the 3457A program comming along , do you master your Agilent USB-GPIBDrop me a PN ...

author: saturation
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2013, 12:37:12 pm
content: Scanning its other bench MM available now, the differences between each model are increasing fine. The service manual is available and I like that like its HH DMMs, calibration can be done either manually one range at a time, or automatically. You can tweak a single function and range without affecting or needing to adjust the other ranges or functions.

author: Circuitous
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 12, 2013, 12:44:00 pm
content: The specs look quite similar to my 34410A, with the addition of a 10A range. But, it only takes 1,000 samples/sec. I'm really looking forward to the review.I wonder if the fan is as loud as the 34410A? The fan in mine is similar to the DS1052E, maybe even louder.

author: Christe4nM
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 12, 2013, 12:51:35 pm
content: Dave, I'm most interested in a first impression / review AND teardown of course! Curious to know what that trueVolt stuff is they mention.Things I'd like to know how the color display is compared to VFD for example. It is easy to read from an odd angle, and is a quick glance enough to see what you want to see? I mean, when there is just a single color number against a black background that's easy to read. Now it displays UI together with your reading, possible making that quick glance into a longer glance to interpret what your eyes see. It seems a trend to get these color displays in instruments, but I really like to know if that is just the best option today or that 7segment, VFD etc are still considered more user friendly. What do people think about the displays in the rigol PSU's for example?This morning I spend a bit of time comparing the 34410a (not 34401a!) and 34411 to the 34461a, and basically I cannot see why the latter aren't replaced as well. It seems only a small step up from the 34461a, so I'd think they would do that as well with say a '34466a'. It would at least bring the price on those units down. That would indeed be to the bench DMM market what the the 2000X,3000X did to the scope market like someone mentioned above.

author: nukie
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2013, 02:02:23 pm
content: The hp34410a failed to replace the industry standard 34401a, I hope this new colourful unit gain some popularity. I stick to Keithley 2K for long term accuracy.

author: robrenz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2013, 03:29:00 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on June 12, 2013, 03:05:31 am[/8846A fanboy][attempt to be objective mode]The 34461 screen is awesome, this is aVERYnice meter. There are several things that are an improvement over the 8846A.Trend chart is more versatile in what it displays and shows the axis scales rather than them being implied.Limits is a nice feature that is integrated very nicely into all the display modes.Probe hold looks extremely handy with up to 8 measurements displayed (can be a mix types of measuremants)Statistics has span displayed.Bar meter looks nice because it has configurable span and center.Better ACI performance outside the 10Hz to 5kHz bandMore modern manual with more measurement technique information.linearity and input bias current are the same on both.Max reading rates are basicaly identical except the 34461A is faster on ACEDIT: both meters need to add offset compensated ohms on the 4 wire resistance modeBut for $280 dollars more you get:1000V24ppm instead of 35ppm DCDual display modeCapacitanceBetter DCI performance 1A and aboveGeneraly lower burden voltages10 ohm and 1Gohm ranges on resistance1MHz frequency5V and 10v diode rangesSelectable continuity threshold from 1 to 1000 ohms at 300 samples per secondBetter NMR 100db vs 60db above 1PLCVery high resolution available on trend plot down to 1nV below 100µV readingsIf you dont need any of the things listed for the 8846A you would be crazy to not buy the 34461A[/attempt to be objective mode][8846A fanboy]That was hard

author: bingo600
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2013, 05:30:56 pm
content: Ohh btw. DaveDid Agilent keep their promise , by lowering the voltages used when testing in the Ohms range ?I think someone complained that he fried an expensive 1.2v board , using a 34401A. When he was measuring some traces in the ohms range.You could mention that in the video./Bingo

author: Hydrawerk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2013, 05:38:14 pm
content: Multimeter with Windows and colorful LCD, welcome to the 21st century. Might be useful for those who want statistic functions or such things

author: Hydrawerk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2013, 05:45:54 pm
content: It looks familiar.

author: robrenz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2013, 06:05:37 pm
content: People have no idea how usefull Trend plot is until they us it a while.Visual indication of when a signal has settled and if it has any intentions of settling (logarithmic shape evidenced or not).Stability testing of power supplies, etc. etc.What else can graph/check the stability of a 10V signal at 10nV resolution over hours or days without a pc?meter is zeroed before going into Trend plot in each of the three examples of a PD2005 power supply at 10VCold start 7mins 27 secs elapsed4 hours 5 mins additional3 days 17hrs 26mins additional

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2013, 06:07:59 pm
content: Quote from: robrenz on June 12, 2013, 06:05:37 pmI don't have one and I drool over it every time I see yours!Hey, that's actually a good idea. I've got a Fluke 45 with RS-232 output - I ought to spend a weekend throwing together a little receiver+display to throw on that and get a trend plot.

author: ben_r_
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2013, 06:55:37 pm
content: So Im kinda confused, how is Trending different than Datalogging if they are both done in the DMM?

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2013, 06:57:05 pm
content: Quote from: ben_r_ on June 12, 2013, 06:55:37 pmTrending shows you a graph of the data?

author: saturation
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2013, 07:03:33 pm
content: Yes, trend plot is great; you can eyeball a lot the data trends very rapidly; I lust after such a function. I have to datacapture it from the DMM and plot it via PCQuote from: c4757p on June 12, 2013, 06:07:59 pm

author: ben_r_
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2013, 07:31:45 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on June 12, 2013, 06:57:05 pmHmmm... Maybe. I guess more specifically where Im confused is that I have an Agilent 34450A on order and it does datalogging with a graphical OLED display and Im wondering whats lacking (if anything) in that functionality from what the 34461A offers and whether or not its just the same thing but with a color display.

author: robrenz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2013, 07:43:14 pm
content: looks like the 34450A has statistics and histogram but no live graphing.

author: fpga
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2013, 08:32:47 pm
content: You can "do" everything on DMMs with PC connectivity that the 34461A can, except that the 34461A also can display it in realtime without any programming. This in itself can be a huge productivity boost if you can quickly perform various different measurements quickly at will. True, you can capture the data to a PC and then run an application to do statistics or graph it, but somehow it is not the same as having it all done in front of you right there on the bench.For manufacturing, automated testing, or calibration use, having the instrument display the data is not as useful as an automated application running on a PC that simply tells the operator GO or NO-GO. As designers and engineers, we want the data displayed right when we are probing.

author: fpga
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2013, 08:36:47 pm
content: Interesting that they removed dual display from the 34461A. All of the older models, including the 34450A could display two different measurements at the same time. The 34461A displays more than one value only with the statistics display enabled, and then only in small fonts.

author: fpga
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2013, 08:42:37 pm
content: Quote from: ben_r_ on June 12, 2013, 07:31:45 pmDon't you just hate it when they come out with a nicer and better model soon after you ordered an older model. I kind of wish I waited an extra 1.5 weeks.

author: ben_r_
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2013, 08:48:08 pm
content: Quote from: fpga on June 12, 2013, 08:42:37 pmHa ha usually, but in this case not so much. The 34405A WAS already the "only an additional $300 more" model for me and overkill for what I need as it is. Spending $1100 on the 34461A just wasnt going to happen anyway. As it is though my Fluke 289 is plenty enough for 99% of my needs, Ive just always wanted a nice benchtop DMM. NOW, if it had been only $100 more or something like that, yea, Id have been upset.

author: Rufus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2013, 10:30:00 pm
content: Quote from: ChrisGammell on June 12, 2013, 02:51:48 amThe 61A price is a bit less than the 34401A.My 34401A manuals show copyright from 1991. Considering developments in the electronics industry over the last 22 years getting substantially more for your money isn't so surprising.I think I will tentatively put one on my shopping list. Look forward to seeing a review.

author: fpga
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2013, 10:58:21 pm
content: Quote from: ben_r_ on June 12, 2013, 08:48:08 pmActually, I just got a quote for $985.50 USD for the 34461A from an authorized distributor. I also have several cheap handheld DMMs for debugging work, but always wanted (sometimes needed) a DMM with 5.5 digit or better certified accuracy. Sometimes I need to monitor and perform V or I tracking over time as I stress test a circuit. Being able see a trend plot right there in front of you is highly valuable as opposed to capturing the data on a PC and plotting it in Excel. Doing the same using hand held DMMs is time consuming.

author: ben_r_
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2013, 04:59:41 am
content: Quote from: fpga on June 12, 2013, 10:58:21 pmStop it! Youre trying to make me feel bad for ordering the 34450A!

author: fpga
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2013, 05:38:57 am
content: Quote from: ben_r_ on June 13, 2013, 04:59:41 amI'm returning the 34450A I just got (haven't even powered it) and ordering the 34461A. Hopefully my only loss is the shipping back and forth. I just hope Dave doesn't uncover something in his 34461A review I'll regret.But seriously, if I had a Fluke 289, I wouldn't be able to justify to myself ordering a $1000 DMM. The Fluke 289 has stats, bar, trend, data logging, so you're right, it can do at least 95% of what any engineer would ever need. In my case my only other DMM is a cheap $50 handheld on which I don't trust to better than 10%. I was initially looking for something in the $500 range, and now the Agilent carrot on the stick led me to spending $1000.My hope is that when they release the 34470A/34471A to replace the 34410A/34411A, that they will price it significantly higher not to tempt anyone here.

author: ben_r_
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2013, 06:31:31 am
content: Quote from: fpga on June 13, 2013, 05:38:57 amYea I might be more tempted if I could even cancel my order, but once it was placed with TestEquipmentDepot for $787 out the door I was committed to it with no backing out and FOUR month delivery time. So no matter the temptation Im stuck until September anyway.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 13, 2013, 07:26:42 am
content: Quote from: fpga on June 12, 2013, 08:42:37 pmThat does suck!Not even I knew it was coming 1.5 weeks ago.Quick resell it on ebay before the masses find out!

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 13, 2013, 07:33:19 am
content: Quote from: ben_r_ on June 12, 2013, 07:31:45 pmThe 34450A is 5.5 digits vs 6.5 digits for starters, and 3 times better accuracy or so. But it doesn't have dual display.And no graphing capability, although I think it does some stats.Also much slower update speed.At $787 vs $945 for the 34460A, there isn't much in that price, and I think you get a lot more bang-per-buck there on the new model.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 13, 2013, 07:37:05 am
content: Quote from: DiligentMinds.com on June 13, 2013, 07:21:28 amThe new 34461A gives specs for 2 years cal intervals along with the traditional 24hr/90day/1 year specs.

author: Hypernova
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 13, 2013, 07:48:23 am
content: If one has the facilities, what about swapping out the reference? If it's just another 399 based 6.5 the rigol DM3068 is much better value for money as it also have rough histogram/trend AND cap measurements. Every once in a while I open itsproduct pageand go "hmmm..." but never could pull the trigger. Dave's review is going to be a big factor.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2013, 09:15:42 am
content: Looking through the spec and user manual, it appears that although it can copy its 10K volatile readings memory to internal NVM or external USB, it doesn't appear to be able to do continuous logging to NVM or USB, which seems an odd limitation.

author: bingo600
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2013, 09:58:07 am
content: Isn't there a fan in this unit , as opposed to the 34401A.Dave ought to tell if it's as noisy as the 34410 (or just noisy) , before people starts returning their goodsSeems like old 34401A users liked the silence ..../Bingo

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 13, 2013, 10:05:52 am
content: Quote from: bingo600 on June 13, 2013, 09:58:07 amI didn't really notice it, which means it can't be too bad...Will have to pay attention when I next power it up.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 13, 2013, 10:07:14 am
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on June 13, 2013, 09:15:42 amYou could presumably simply manually get a single remote measurement, and do that as fast as possible?

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2013, 10:24:15 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on June 13, 2013, 10:07:14 amIt's not the speed, but the ability to do a long log (e.g. battery discharge over several days) standalone without connecting to a PC, and displaying the data so far on its own screen. It appears that this is possible with the trend function, but limited to the 10K sample memory (not looked deep enough to see what happens when it fills - presumably it does a fifo roll).It would be very useful to be able to either have it write to NV memory during logging, or periodically empty the internal RAM to a CSV file in either internal filesystem or USB. The latter ought to be very easy to implement.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 13, 2013, 11:05:05 am
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on June 13, 2013, 10:24:15 amUsually you don't need that much memory for that, hundred of points are enough, it's a just matter of setting the sample time if you know the estimated total sample time.If you don't know the total time, then yeah, you need sample compression and/or level based compression or a crap load of memory to brute force it.

author: robrenz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2013, 12:05:35 pm
content: Details of how 8846A Trend plot workshereexcerpt from that:TrendPlot is a form of min/ max recording in which the meter automatically compresses the timescale each time the trend approaches the end of memory. As the meter starts to run out of memory, signal processors quickly go to work. They combine adjacent recording intervals into a new min and max. You still get to see the worst-case measurements and the overall trend. And because you choose when to stop the measurement, you automatically get the best time resolution with the available memory.

author: quantumvolt
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2013, 12:22:29 pm
content: This Agilent "Interactive Demo"http://wireless.agilent.com/html/dmm/answers many of the questions here: Truevolt, Display, Trend, Fan, Statistics, Data Logging, Memory etc.Except from USB/LAN and the primitive Display, this instrument has very little more than the 34401A. But of course - it is more sexy and has graphic display and colors. That makes the measurements much better for many people - including some here ...Interesting: The RS232 port is gone and the GPIB is optional - I guess they are both outdated. Modernity is USB on the bench (as you see it in many handheld meters) and LAN/WEB when more than 3 feet distance is involved. If one has the cash to buy accessories I guess one can make a data logger / real-time math-statistics processing software with 1000 measurements pr. second until the end of the world ...For a few dollars and an Arduino - the data stream from the 34401A is also real-time accessible for SD card writing, wireless, USB or Ethernet/Web and online PC processing. First test (I need to buy a DB-9 plug ... - the set-up monitors a voltage and sends the measurements real-time to a USB port or Ethernet shield or SD card writer).

author: quantumvolt
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2013, 12:35:24 pm
content: Quote from: robrenz on June 13, 2013, 12:05:35 pmAs far as I can see fromhttp://wireless.agilent.com/html/dmm/the Agilent feature is just a data plot 'value against time' (last 60 seconds or all data available). The Fluke feature is signal processing and is part of the branch of mathematical statistics called 'Time Series Analysis'http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Time_series_analysis.

author: ftransform
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2013, 03:01:03 pm
content: IDK, considering that I can have data being graphed in about 30 seconds on my PC, I just don't see the use.I'm sure a program like labview or something can do it in real time too, once its setup. I'd rather pirate a program then fork over money to agilent.I mean seriously, if you have intuilink running, you just move your chair 3 feet to the left, open up excel, click graph. And you have it on a nice big screen with alot of data points that you can easily run statistical analysis on on a good user interface instead of pressing buttons like its star trek. You can run a fourier transform, this that, easily and not have to deal with a 1 by 1 inch display or whatever. 24 inches baby

author: Hypernova
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 13, 2013, 04:22:43 pm
content: As long as the underlying reference (LM399, LTZ1000) don't improve, they are stuck.

author: fpga
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2013, 07:54:03 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on June 13, 2013, 07:26:42 amHaving ordered from a reputable, authorized distributor, I was able to return within 7 days for a full refund, minus the shipping charges.

author: ben_r_
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2013, 08:14:01 pm
content: Quote from: fpga on June 13, 2013, 07:54:03 pmWho did you order through?

author: fpga
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2013, 08:27:26 pm
content: Agilent has chosen to omit several features in the 34461A that were present in older and competitor's models. I'm curious as to whether they were omitted due to being of limited use or to leave as a carrot on a stick for future higher end models.The first one is removing the dual measurement display, which given the new higher res color WQVGA display, they could have easily incorporated this feature. Apparently this feature on other models, including the 34450A, permits displaying frequency or DC offset while the main display shows AC V, or to display AC ripple V while the main display shows DC V. I can see use for these features.The ability to display both V and I at the same time is nice in theory, but not sure if it is practical. First, you need to be able to attach multiple leads to your circuit, and second, most important, chances are that the V and the I would be measured using different ranges. I'm not sure about the Fluke and Keithley, but according to the manual, the 34450A performs the two measurements by switching back and forth. If this involves different ranges, the relays will switch back and forth, which I presume will impact the measurement accuracy and speed. Any experience with doing these measurements in practical use?The second feature is Capacitance measurement. While it sounds nice in theory, it is of limited value in practical use. First, if you wanted to check if a decoupling cap on a board wasn't faulty, this won't work because you generally have many caps in parallel. If you wanted to verify the quality of a cap, this too wouldn't be of much use because high accuracy of capacitance is less important than quality. For the capacitor ESR, you need to use an LCR meter, which is based on different measurement technology. For checking just capacitance of loose caps lying around on a bench, you might as well use a cheap handheld DMM or a tweezer LCR meter.So perhaps Agilent used common sense for omitting these features?

author: fpga
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2013, 08:31:33 pm
content: Quote from: ben_r_ on June 13, 2013, 08:14:01 pmmetrictest.comIf you put in a Web order, you get 10% discount. Sometimes they will match the 10% discount on their quotes. If it is a non-stocked item, like license key options, they sometimes quote with a 12% discount. All the distributors charge sales tax and the usual shipping charges.

author: ben_r_
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2013, 08:53:48 pm
content: Quote from: fpga on June 13, 2013, 08:31:33 pmAh. Yea not so good a deal for me as that 10% discount probably wouldnt even cover tax and shipping whereas with TestEquipmentDepot there is neither. But, good to know about anyway. Thanks.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 13, 2013, 09:25:17 pm
content: Quote from: DiligentMinds.com on June 13, 2013, 04:07:20 pmYou expected it too for the price?QuoteMaybe the market just isn't there for a more expensive 10pmm 6.5 digit meter?

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 13, 2013, 09:30:26 pm
content: Quote from: DiligentMinds.com on June 13, 2013, 04:38:56 pmTwo significant claims they make are Noise and injected current and Input bias current.Stabs at who "Brand X" are?

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2013, 09:31:34 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on June 13, 2013, 09:25:17 pm

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 13, 2013, 11:39:26 pm
content: If you purely look at accuracy, then the latest significant improvement was probably the HP 3456a, introduced in the early eighties. Its revised 1 year specs are quite similar, if not slightly better, than modern 6.5 digit DMMs. It's also rated for 24h transfer standard accuracy. All improvements since then have been functions, features, connectivity and speed.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 14, 2013, 12:09:13 am
content: Quote from: DiligentMinds.com on June 13, 2013, 11:25:12 pmYou don't seriously think that was the result of your suggestion do you?

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 14, 2013, 03:01:31 am
content: Quote from: DiligentMinds.com on June 14, 2013, 01:47:04 amThey were just being kind to youBig companies like HP don't simply take a single idea from a customer and then bang, turn it into a product, especially not an obvious one. The idea was almost certainly already thought of and possibly already developed at the time. The need to synchronise (and combine) logic analysis and scope analysis is not new at all, even I had the idea (and played around with the concept) with my DSO and LA projects back in the late 80's. And I was just a teenager with no industry clue, and pre information revolution. It was blindingly obvious that a DSO could also synchronously store logic data.It is common for marketing to go and ask such questions after or during the product development to get a feel for if they are on the right track.See here:http://www.hpl.hp.com/hpjournal/97apr/apr97a1.pdfQuote

author: billclay
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2013, 04:20:21 am
content: Quote from: robrenz on June 12, 2013, 03:29:00 pmYou can't move off trendplot & histogram screen once you've started it in the Fluke 884X, I think Agilent lets you move off the screen without losing the data. Also, I found the trendplot and histogram almost useless on the Fuke because of the fixed resolution and auto-scaling of the graphs. Let's see if the 34461A does it any better.

author: billclay
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2013, 04:34:34 am
content: Quote from: bingo600 on June 13, 2013, 09:58:07 amYea, I love equipment without fans! No noise and no ingesting dust!The 34460A does NOT have a fan, but the 34461A does.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 14, 2013, 04:48:48 am
content: Quote from: billclay on June 14, 2013, 04:34:34 amIt's not that loud or distracting, just a low level whir. Less than Rigol 1052E for example.In a silent room, yes, you can hear it, but if oyu have any other gear it would just get lost in the background.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2013, 06:22:41 pm
content: Quote from: DiligentMinds.com on June 13, 2013, 04:38:56 pmhave you ripped it apart ? taken a look at the schematics ? if no : shut up.This machine is a replacement for the 34401. Nothing more. The reason ? because 50% of the parts in the 34401 are now obsolete. The vfd's are gone ( remaining stock depleted ) , half of the chips in the machine are EOL ( the cpu's, gpib amongst others... even the rs232 level shifter is eol) and they are close to being out of the ASIC's and the precision hybrid as well.Expect to see the 34401 being switched to last time buy on the Agilent website very soon...the key selling point is that it is a 100% compatible 34401a . the intended audience is people that have automated setups running and need drop-in replacement without code changes.if you want a machine with better specs : take a look at their other machines like the 34411 or the 3458 ...

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2013, 07:37:16 pm
content: Quote from: free_electron on June 14, 2013, 06:22:41 pmI don't think I've ever seen a datasheet that puts so much emphasis on a product being the same as the previous version... surprised they didn't call it the 34401B!

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2013, 08:35:38 pm
content: B versions are typically small changes , little improvement here and there. Replacing of one or two parts that are obsolete. the 60 is a completely new design. the display and user interface is completely different so it warrants a complete new number.But you are right. the key selling point is : drop in replacement for 34401.

author: saturation
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2013, 08:48:04 pm
content: Yes, the older sales brochures pushed the 34410a to replace the 01a but there are enough known incompatibilities that needed software rewrites that likely were significant enough to require a true drop in replacement be made; add graphical capabilities too as all their bench DMMs lack it [ graphics is pushed heavily in their sales brochures].http://cp.literature.agilent.com/litweb/pdf/5989-4038EN.pdfQuote from: mikeselectricstuff on June 14, 2013, 07:37:16 pm

author: plesa
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2013, 10:10:32 pm
content: I like idea of instrument with large display, similar to other products like SMU B2900A or generators 33500B.For such a price range is seems to be realy good replacement for 34401.Do not continue with trolling about precission of the instrument, it is entry level bench top DMM.Manufacturer cannot "kill" their other product with 1k USD multimeter with high-ends like 3458 (8k USD) or K2002 (6k USD)I agree that both multimeters are quite old - but there is still demand from customers and these customers are more traditional.

author: fpga
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2013, 03:01:25 am
content: Quote from: DiligentMinds.com on June 14, 2013, 08:57:44 pmIt is marketing that decides what features to put into each instrument for each price level.It is obvious on this model that there are things they could have done to make the instrument significantly better, but they wanted to save those features for future higher end models, such as replacements for the 34410A and 34411A.From reading the datasheets, manuals, and viewing the videos, it is clear that they wanted to defend their commitment to delivering the 34401A to their volume customers. If they had a "functionally" new instrument, those customers would be pissed off when they EOL the 34401A. For some people, better specs does not mean a better solution if they need to retrain their employees or re-write their test software.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2013, 04:12:52 am
content: @diligentminds. Sorry i came over rude. But i took your post as 'instrument bashing without backup'.The new machine does not aspire to be better than a 34401. Its goal is to be a 100% replacement for the aging 34401. Like i said the 34401 will disappear soon as they are running out of parts for it. Yet industry demands it. There are rpoblems plonking in a 34410 or 34411 instead of a 34401 as there are software incompatibilities ( sending 10nplc to a34410 is different dan 10nplc to a 34401. What is slow 61/2 on the 34401 is fast 61/2 on the 410... This gives problems. Also some of the other new machines have no more gpib. The new 6x has gpib (albeit an option).It is purely designed as 100% code and function replacement.So they are not going to put in ltz references as it is not needed. Nor does it need to ne more accurate than the 34401. As they will not alter the program code driving the testsetup the extra precision would be lost anyway. If the code is written to extract 51/2 digit in fast mode. It does no good to plonk in a machine that can doe 71/2 digit. The code only extracts 51/2 . So they dont want to pay for functionality that will not be accessed. Like i said: goal no1 of the machine is 100% compatibility. Sure they threw in some extra stuff that did not add to the bomcost. But adding an ltz style reference would have mandated higher cost. The twrget price was 34401 territory.If you want better performance , faster reading, better tolerance they got other machines.And by the way , the service manul IS up for the machine. No schematics though but there are some color pictures of the inside , some repair , replace tips and an explanation of how it does certain things.I have it on good authority that we will see a replacement for the 3458 as well....

author: plesa
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2013, 08:41:19 am
content: Quote from: free_electron on June 15, 2013, 04:12:52 amCan you share rough timeline for this replacement? Month(s), year(s)?

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2013, 12:16:19 pm
content: RS (UK) are showing 7534461A's in stockat GBP705.No 34460a but they are listing the LAN upgrade for it! (looks like this is a license job)

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2013, 01:41:49 pm
content: With all the talk of compatibility with the 34401 I'm surprised there isn't an RS232 option - wouldn't exactly have been hard. Maybe even by plugging an FTDI cable into the USB host port - FTDI have WINCE drivers so wouldn't be much effort to support it.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 17, 2013, 04:47:45 pm
content: Farnell now havea couple of 34460A's

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2013, 12:40:19 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on June 15, 2013, 01:41:49 pm..well it appears that there is,all they need to do is add software support for it...

author: quarks
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2013, 03:29:08 pm
content: I did add the new Agilent to my DCV chart for my own gear to see how it compares in the 1 year specs.I also added the Keithley 2002 8.5 Digit DMM, because I was surprised to see that it is not that much better then the 6.5 Digit meters shown.edit: correction in chartedit: added DCI chart

author: robrenz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2013, 04:22:51 pm
content: That Keithley line looks too erratic, I would check your cell formulas and spec interpretation

author: quarks
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2013, 05:48:31 pm
content: here is the chart with Fluke 8508A

author: quarks
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2013, 06:03:45 pm
content: Quote from: robrenz on June 18, 2013, 04:22:51 pmI checked the formulas and had a mix of 1 + 10 PLC accurracy numbers, but there is not much difference (now with 10PLC data only), see new Chart in original post plus specs here

author: robrenz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2013, 07:22:19 pm
content: My appologies,it is that bad over 20V

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2013, 08:06:14 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on June 18, 2013, 12:40:19 pm..but at the moment it's a debug port.....Code:U-Boot 2010.03 (Oct 09 2012 - 12:48:30)Agilent P510CPU: SPEAr320DRAM: 128 MiBUnknown id: 0xffffff. Using ST_M23P40Flash: 64 KiBNAND: INTERNAL ECC 128 MiBIn: serialOut: serialErr: serialSerNum:MY99999999Chip: AA Board Rev: 4init RTC: 2013-06-18 20:02:38.47Net: No ethernet found.splash RTC: 2013-06-18 20:02:39.51Press space to stop autoboot: 0NAND read: device 0 offset 0x320000, size 0x1000065536 bytes read: OK## Booting kernel from Legacy Image at 00600000 ...Image Name: PBOOTCreated: 2012-05-22 16:06:43 UTCImage Type: ARM Linux Kernel Image (gzip compressed)Data Size: 38780 Bytes = 37.9 KiBLoad Address: 00000000Entry Point: 00000000Uncompressing Kernel Image ... OKStarting kernel ...Debug serial initialized ........OKNo RTC on 320Microsoft Windows CE Bootloader Common Library Version 1.4 Built May 22 2012 09:09:57Microsoft Windows CE 6.0 Ethernet Bootloader for the Agilent P500 boardAdaptation performed by Agilent Technologies (c) 2008Reading NAND configurationSystem ready!Preparing for download...No RTC on 320Loading image 1 from memory at 0xD0620000OBL_IMAGE_TYPE_BINXXXOXOOOXOXOOOOOOOXOXOOOOOOOXOOOXOOOOXXXOOOOOOOOOXOOOXOXXOOXXOOOXOXXOXOOXXOOOOOOXOOOXOOOXXOXOOOXOOXOOXXOOOXOOOOOXOOXOOOXOXOXXOXXXOOOXOOOOXXOOOOXOOOOXOXOXOOOOOOXOOOXOOXOOOOOXXOOOOOXOXOOOOOOOOOOOXOXOOOOOOOXOXXOOOOOOOXOOOOXOXOOOXOOOXXXXXOXXOOXOOXOXXXXOOOOXOOOOOXXXXXOOOXOXOOOOXOOOOXOOOXOOXOOXOOOXOOXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXrom_offset=0x0.XXImageStart = 0x80361000, ImageLength = 0x14FD1FC, LaunchAddr = 0x80362000Completed file(s):-------------------------------------------------------------------------------: Address=0x80361000 Length=0x14FD1FC Name="" Target=RAMLoading image 1 succeeded.ROMHDR at Address 80361044hPreparing launch...No RTC on 320Launching windows CE image by jumping at address 0x 362000Windows CE Kernel for ARM (Thumb Enabled) Built on May 7 2012 at 12:47:43Setting up for a Cold RebootDone Setting up for a Cold RebootWindows CE Firmware InitBSP 1.0.0 for the SPEARHEAD600AB board (built Mar 14 2013)Adaptation performed by ADENEO (c) 2005+OALIntrInit-OALIntrInit(rc = 1)Initialize driver globals Zeros area...pDrvGlobalArea 0xa0060000 size 0x800 (0xa0060800 -0xa0060000)Initialize driver globals Zeros area...doneOALKitlStartFirmware Init Done.OALIoctlHalEnterI2cCriticalSection init i2c csERROR: C:\WINCE600\PLATFORM\COMMON\SRC\SOC\STM\SPEARHEAD600\DRIVERS\GPIO\.\sh600_gpio_hw.cpp line 170: GPB driver, RegQueryDword('ISTPriority') failed, status:2ERROR: C:\WINCE600\PLATFORM\COMMON\SRC\SOC\STM\SPEARHEAD600\DRIVERS\NandFlash\.\sh600_NandFlash.c line 57: ConfigTimming - Unable to open device registry entryERROR: C:\WINCE600\PLATFORM\COMMON\SRC\SOC\STM\COMMON\DRIVERS\NandFlash\.\stm_NandFlash.c line 1039: LLD_GetInfo - Unable to open device registry entry++SER_Init: context Drivers\Active\10SER_Init, dwIndex:2GPIO_Select0 Register 0xB300_0024: 0x80000000Control Register 0xB300_0010 : 0x00000040RAS Select Register 0xB300_000C: 0xffffacf4CORE_CLK_CFG 0xB300_0024: 0x80000000SER2 got sysintr:0x00000013SER2 Serial Port, new baud rate:0x1c200 (UARTCLK:83250000 IBRD:0x2d FBRD:0xa)++SER_Init: context Drivers\Active\11SER_Init, dwIndex:3GPIO_Select0 Register 0xB300_0024: 0x80000000Control Register 0xB300_0010 : 0x00000040RAS Select Register 0xB300_000C: 0xffffacf4CORE_CLK_CFG 0xB300_0024: 0x80000000+OALIntrRequestSysIntr IRQ (1) already used by SYSINTR (19)SER3 got sysintr:0x00000014SER3 Serial Port, new baud rate:0x1c200 (UARTCLK:83250000 IBRD:0x2d FBRD:0xa)OHCI\system.c, GCFG_USBH1_SW_RSTOHCI\system.c, GCFG_USBH2_SW_RST-EDeviceLoadEeprom 00:30:D3:24:69:A4Phy found addr 7 (ticks=3435)WaitForLink Start (ticks=3436)No Link (ticks=4439)<--EDeviceInitializeGMAC DMA status register = 0x0Resetting the USB-device siliconsh600_pdd, IOCTL_BUS_POSTINITERROR: C:\WINCE600\3RDPARTY\Agilent\HPP\Common\Drivers\stm320_UsbFnBusDriver\.\ufnbus.cpp line 1137: failed opening \Agilent Flash\SPD\usbOverridestm320_UsbFnBusDriver, set IST priority 96With some debug commands....Code:? - alias for 'help'adc - performs A/D conversion on channelbase - print or set address offsetbdinfo - print Board Info structurebdt - enables or disables output pins on UART1boot - boot default, i.e., run 'bootcmd'bootd - boot default, i.e., run 'bootcmd'bootm - boot application image from memorybootp - boot image via network using BOOTP/TFTP protocolcdp - Perform CDP network configurationcmp - memory compareconinfo - print console devices and informationcp - memory copycrc32 - checksum calculationdcache - enable or disable data cachedhcp - boot image via network using DHCP/TFTP protocolecho - echo args to consoleeditenv - edit environment variableerase - erase FLASH memoryexpi - program EXPI Clockfactory - factory - program factory data into NAND memoryfatinfo - print information about filesystemfatload - load binary file from a dos filesystemfatls - list files in a directory (default /)flinfo - print FLASH memory informationfpga - loadable FPGA image supportfsinfo - print information about filesystemsfsload - load binary file from a filesystem imagego - start application at address 'addr'help - print command description/usagehwreset - Perform HW RESET of the CPUicache - enable or disable instruction cacheiminfo - print header information for application imageimls - imls - list all images found in flashimxtract- extract a part of a multi-imageitest - return true/false on integer compareloadb - load binary file over serial line (kermit mode)loads - load S-Record file over serial lineloady - load binary file over serial line (ymodem mode)loop - infinite loop on address rangels - list files in a directory (default /)md - memory displaymm - memory modify (auto-incrementing address)mtest - simple RAM read/write testmw - memory write (fill)nand - NAND sub-systemnboot - boot from NAND devicenfs - boot image via network using NFS protocolnm - memory modify (constant address)ping - send ICMP ECHO_REQUEST to network hostprintenv- print environment variablesprotect - enable or disable FLASH write protectionrarpboot- boot image via network using RARP/TFTP protocolreset - Perform RESET of the CPUrtc - print time from RTCrun - run commands in an environment variablesaveenv - save environment variables to persistent storagesaves - save S-Record file over serial linesetenv - set environment variablessleep - delay execution for some timesource - run script from memorysplash - load splash image on displaytftpboot- boot image via network using TFTP protocolusb - USB sub-systemusbboot - boot from USB deviceversion - print monitor versionxload - xload - program xloader image into NAND from memory

author: Rufus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2013, 08:16:01 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff link=topic=17741.msg248639#msg248639Lol - has it got an 8051 in there? Maybe in the FPGA?

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2013, 08:34:48 pm
content: There's an LPC900 on the front panel board.

author: plesa
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2013, 08:43:01 pm
content: I checked similar WinCE based generator (33500B) and there is no such a port inside.

author: quantumvolt
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2013, 12:34:36 am
content: Quote from: quarks on June 18, 2013, 06:03:45 pmVery interesting and informative plot. A simple and intuitively correct behavior of a plot of "accuracy" vs. voltage (range).As one poster said the higher ranges are determined by the quality of resistor arrays for voltage dividers. At the lower end it is noise and the quality of the DC amplifiers that rules. Somewhere in between the AD converter is "naked" and the instrument is at it's best. Also it is clear for everyone to see why it is better to measure near full scale.An interesting thing is that better millivolt amplifiers can be bought or built, and the same goes for resistor dividers. But the inherent quality of the AD converter and it's minimum front end determines the instrument's final quality and can not be changed. Also the huge drop in one of the curves represents as said by another poster only a precision increase from around 0.005% to 0.001% and shows up in the naked AD converter range. Shows that the converter is very good but the front amplifier for lower ranges and the dividers for higher ranges are so so.One can also compare this graph to the "history" of voltage references from 1+ Volt cells to today's 10 Volt arrays. This is the span where the AD converter and it's reference voltage operates and where the instrument's are at their best (I include lower voltages even in modern equipment because there is a lot of portable battery powered calibration / measurement stuff that references much less than 10 volt).Very nice graph.

author: quarks
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2013, 05:54:29 am
content: Quote from: quantumvolt on June 19, 2013, 12:34:36 amThe credits for that go to robrenz. He was the first I saw this kind of chart from!!! I only adopted it and used it since then for almost all gear I own and for most I liked and tried to buy.

author: robrenz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2013, 02:12:39 pm
content: IMO the only way to objectively compare specs. Banner specs and huge +LSD counts are quickly equalized between instruments using this method. It is a little tedious getting all the formulas correct for each range of each instrument for all measurement types. You have to make sure you have test values that occur on the range changes/maximum reading for each range for all the instruments compared.

author: fpga
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2013, 05:04:02 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on June 18, 2013, 08:06:14 pmWow! I'm amazed that they would expose all these goodies!On my projects I'm always required to turn off all debug info in the production build. Perhaps they are shipping the instruments with beta firmware.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 19, 2013, 05:34:33 pm
content: hello. After viewing teardown tuesday ihave some questions:1.Is it normal that most vias on the backsdie of the PCB are filed wih solder?This dual slope converter.Why do you use an opamp to charge the capacitor? All you do is just charging a cap and measuring the time. You dont need an opamp for it. And is the charging curve not exponential ( DaveCad showed a linear increasing of voltage).

author: adh
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2013, 01:36:43 am
content: Quote from: fpga on June 13, 2013, 08:27:26 pmOn most of bench meters (and probably even on reasonable handheld ones) there is no need to switch any physical switch when going between current and voltage measurements. On 34401 going between current (except 3A, because 3A range relay also switches in current source for R measurements) and voltage ranges involves switching two MOS switches in the input switching hybrid (U101 in service manual). And actually the thing by default does moral equivalent of switching ranges between each sample - "autozero", which involves measuring voltage on input shorted by 100k resistor to ground.It is truly surprising how simple the 34401A's input circuitry is (essentially whole real input range switching is on sheet 2 of schematics). You essentially get two ranges each for I (5R an 0R01 shunts) and U (small voltages going through few series high-value protection resistors and large voltages going through 9M9:0M1 divider, with both connected at once for "low" impedance mode) and any other ranges are done by adjusting gain of input amplifier after that (U106 and discrete JFET pair U104, with another pins of U101 used for changing divider ratio in its feedback network). Notice that you only have 3 relevant (ie. ignoring K101) relays in this whole mechanism. But because K102 serves dual purpose of switching current ranges and measurement current source for R ranges it is not exactly practical to measure U and I at once, but only slight redesign (probably without any additional components) will enable that, and without any relay clicking between samples.On the other hand, I would like to not only be measuring U and I at once but also RMS power, which seems to not be practical by switching inputs of relatively slow ADC.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 20, 2013, 01:47:08 am
content: Quote from: Citizen on June 19, 2013, 05:34:33 pmYou need an opamp to created the virtual ground at the input and steer all the (constant) current through the capacitor.It is linear because it's a constant current.

author: AlfBaz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2013, 12:46:09 pm
content: Quote from: Citizen on June 19, 2013, 05:34:33 pmIt's why they call this circuit an integrating op amp. It performs the mathematical integral of the applied voltage over the time. If it wasn't linear (for a fixed dc input) then it wouldn't be called an integrator

author: ben_r_
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2013, 05:43:53 pm
content: Man, after watching Daves tear down and review of this unit Im kinda glad I didnt get it. That boot time (or anything other than instant on) would annoy the heck out of me! That takes WAY too long. When I pull out or power up my meter I want instant access to take my measurements and Im out. That Windows CE boot sucks.

author: AlfBaz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2013, 06:02:04 pm
content: Presumably you want to pull out the 6.5 digit meter for some accuracy. You should be waiting an for an hour for it to warm up. So what's the big deal?

author: ben_r_
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2013, 06:04:09 pm
content: Quote from: AlfBaz on June 20, 2013, 06:02:04 pmlol I guess we all look at thing differently. I would use it as my daily/normal bench meter but not necessarily leave it on all day long and I think in this day and age with all that technology crammed in there we shouldnt have to wait at all for the thing to boot up.

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2013, 06:06:53 pm
content: Even an accurate, expensive meter like that can (or, should be able to) serve well as a general-purpose meter in addition. Sure, it'll be warming up for a while if I need that much accuracy, but if I don't, I still want to be able to use it without waiting for that damn startup sequence.

author: grego
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2013, 06:35:21 pm
content: Quote from: c4757p on June 20, 2013, 06:06:53 pmYeah but remember Dave specifically said his had pre-release firmware on it with extra debugging and that Agilent told him it would take longer than normal to boot.

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2013, 06:38:40 pm
content: Remember? I missed that entirely!Thanks.

author: ben_r_
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2013, 06:45:48 pm
content: Quote from: grego on June 20, 2013, 06:35:21 pmI did catch that in the video review, however being that it does run CE, Im sure the boot up is still long, just maybe not AS long.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2013, 07:39:27 pm
content: Quote from: grego on June 20, 2013, 06:35:21 pmThe current production firmware takes 50 seconds to boot. Way too long.

author: robrenz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2013, 07:44:47 pm
content: 8846A running Linux takes 14 seconds

author: grego
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2013, 08:05:04 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on June 20, 2013, 07:39:27 pmIf 50 seconds is what they consider "faster" than the debug software then yeah - that's a long-ass time for a DMM to start up. Gotta love WindowsCE.

author: ben_r_
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2013, 08:43:49 pm
content: Quote from: DiligentMinds.com on June 20, 2013, 08:33:33 pmAll we can do is try and vote with our dollars. Dont buy devices running Windows CE if you dont want them on the market anymore.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2013, 08:46:51 pm
content: Quote from: grego on June 20, 2013, 08:05:04 pmI don't think the production SW is much, if any different to what Dave has - most of the boot-up message build dates are the same. Hopefully this means an update is coming to improve it. Most of the time is before the main DMM app starts & relays start clicking etc.I suspect they may need to go back to MS to address some of the time-consuming stuff - I suspect a lot of it is stuff like inappropriate timeouts waiting for non-existent interfaces and unnecessary selftests.Or they could change the way that powerdown works to go into a standby state - as it has a soft power switch this ought to be possible. Not ideal as you'd still have the long startup from plug-in, but should be a much faster restart from the front panel, which would be better than nothing.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2013, 08:52:49 pm
content: The problem is that Agilent will now have a big investment in their own developments under CE - for example all the remote LXI stuff, calibration & production test, so it's not just the OS, at least not now.I'm sure they would have looked long & hard at the options, and that there were good reasons to move away from Vxworks (used on 5/6/7000).An obvious reason for choosing CE over Linux is support from the manufacturer, althoigh Agilent are big enough that they could have set up an internal Penguin department.

author: grenert
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2013, 08:53:43 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on June 20, 2013, 08:46:51 pmThis is what the Fluke 8846A does. Boot from plug-in is 14 sec as explained by robrenz above, but subsequent turn-on from the front panel is pretty much instant.

author: don.r
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2013, 08:56:54 pm
content: Ahh.. the simple life. My Keithley 196 boots in less than 3 seconds.

author: jonese
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2013, 10:08:03 pm
content: WinCE wasn't that great on a phone platform either.

author: ben_r_
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2013, 10:11:41 pm
content: Quote from: jonese on June 20, 2013, 10:08:03 pmSure as heck was not!

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 20, 2013, 11:22:09 pm
content: Quote from: c4757p on June 20, 2013, 06:06:53 pmThen simple, don't by a feature laden meter with a complex OS for on/off intermittent use. Use the right tool for the job.

author: Fsck
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2013, 02:10:51 am
content: Quote from: DiligentMinds.com on June 21, 2013, 02:07:19 amSo wrong. It's good at pissing people off. (though, not a very good pro)On another note, I wonder if we'll see more siba fuses in NA with this.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 21, 2013, 09:10:16 am
content: it's a good meter for the price, but my priority now is to get a waveform gen....

author: ben_r_
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2013, 04:34:54 pm
content: Quote from: Oracle on June 21, 2013, 09:10:16 amI recently picked up an Agilent 33220A Arb Gen and its been awesome! You can sometimes find them in good to perfect condition on eBay for around $800-900

author: fpga
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2013, 06:23:35 pm
content: Quote from: DiligentMinds.com on June 20, 2013, 08:33:33 pmQUIT BASHING WINCE!!! We all hate Microsoft, but give some credit where credit is due!Decisions for choosing an OS for a product is not made on a whim, particularly if it impacts a good portion of the products developed and supported by a company for a period of 10 to 20 years. Agilent most likely made the decision for their future instruments back around 2004 or 2005. Back then, before Android, iPad, iPhone, and smartphones, the choices were much different than they are today. Blackberrys had 2 line LCD screens, the Palm Pilot had a green backlit monochrome screen, the iPod had a white monochrome screen with the click wheel, and Microsoft had WinCE, which had full color graphic touchscreen support, Ethernet, WiFi, Bluetooth, USB, etc. The first smartphones and tablets (PDAs) ran WinCE. The first competitor to WinCE based smartphones was the Palm Treo, which became quite popular, but it was Palm proprietary, had no support for Ethernet or WIFI, and very limited 3rd party app support.Where was embedded Linux back then? Back then, embedded Linux distros were basically ports from desktop distros, with limited peripheral support, very limited graphics support, poor GUI, no low power management, very limited non-PC hardware support, etc. If you wanted a BSP, and perhaps some form of support, your only options were to go with MontaVista, LynuxWorks, or TimeSys, which were exorbitantly expensive. The development tools were around $80k USD per seat, with licensing easily exceeding $120k for the OS and a few options like video display, USB, and Ethernet. Also the licensing model was tied to end product model number and single binary. If you developed a whole product family, then you would multiply the licensing cost by the number of products, plus you had a 20% annual maintenance fee. So for Agilent to choose Linux back than, they would have to shell out several $M easily on just the OS plus the 20% maintenance for the next 10 or more years.That would have been half the problem, but GUI for Linux was simply not a priority. Most Linux hackers back then did their entire development using a text only screen. Yes, they booted their workstation to Linux console and would never run a GUI desktop. GUIs were for sissies, or lamers as some of my coworkers would call them. Real programmers used vi and make files, not IDEs. The Linux GUIs back then were all based on X-Windows, which worked very well for remote logins, but was very inefficient for an embedded type GUI, plus the fonts and dialog boxes were usually misaligned, and no touchscreen support.Embedded Linux was used very successfully in stuff like network equipment, routers, gateways, servers, NAS, etc. These devices needed the network support and file system of a full fledged OS, but didn’t care for a GUI. Most of these devices would have a few push buttons and 2 or 4 line LCD screens on the front panel for displaying status.By contrast, WinCE Platform Builder was ~$1k USD, and that included the BSP and all the tools needed for development. The licensing model was based on stickers that needed to be purchased for each shipped unit and ranged between $10 to $30 each in low volumes with volume discounts. Microsoft offered support for over 30 different processors, plus all of the major vendors back then had a WinCE BSP to support the specific peripherals for their SoC MCUs. For 3rd party support, there was Adeneo and BSquare, which developed BSPs for many of the MCU vendors as well as offered design services. Remote debugging WinCE on the device was over Ethernet and worked just like debugging any application in Visual Studio. Pressing F5 would build your WinCE app, download it to your device, and start execution. You could step through code and set breakpoints, and view variables and stack just as easily as debugging any desktop application. By contrast, on Linux you would run make files in the console, then use a $20k JTag pod to download your application, and then run console GDB, and have fun decoding hex addresses and values. Take your pick.As for WinCE taking a long time to boot – Toradex have been able to offer an ARM SOM running WinCE 7 that boots in less than 500ms. It does a full cold boot to GUI in about the time it takes to press the power switch. I have yet to see an embedded Linux board boots that fast.That was then. Today, Microsoft is not the same company it once was, and the new management geniuses are hard at work to make sure it will never be. Today most of the major ARM MCU vendors provide free of charge embedded Linux BSPs with full support for all of their onchip peripherals. There is Android and QT for GUI development. You still have to buy the development tools, but the competition has driven the prices down to more justifiable levels.Where are the Microsoft programmers today that developed WinCE? They quit in frustration and went to work for Google to develop Android.While I agree that the days for Microsoft are numbered (with the help of their management), I would not blame Agilent, or anyone else, for choosing to use WinCE a few years back because, quite frankly, it was the best option available at that time for an embedded OS with a nice GUI.

author: fpga
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2013, 11:35:16 pm
content: Quote from: DiligentMinds.com on June 21, 2013, 09:58:36 pmI referred to Microsoft in a past tense -- their days of inspiration are long gone. Maybe they have a future with their game consoles. Personally I believe that Linux, both desktop and embedded is the future, but there's still work to be done.I'm impressed with your experience using WinCE, Windows Embedded, and embedded Linux. Unfortunately, things are a bit different if you develop products with multiple complex interfaces and GUI using an RTOS. Unless one of the free or open source versions fits your application perfectly, using an RTOS can be very expensive, particularly with the licensing. And very often you are on your own to support the MCU of your own choice and the onchip peripherals. For a product like the 34461A, you could be talking about $30k for the base RTOS + $20k for the TCP/IP v4 stack + $15k for web server + $20k for USB host + $20k for USB device + $15k for FAT16/32 file system, and $50k for GUI. Some vendors charge royalties, others base the prices by the number of units you predict you'll sell up front. Now multiply by the number of end models you have and add 20% annual maintenance. On top of that investment, you still need to develop all of the drivers. That WinCE looks real cheap now for what you get out of the box.I'm not sure why you would call WinCE a full blown general purpose OS. Yes it can be built as such, but you have full control over which drivers and components are added to the BSP as well as which applications are in the binary. I don't think one would be able to install and run solitaire on the 34461A.Second, the hassles you had experienced with WinCE and Windows Embedded -- I presume you had done .NET application programming. Whoever came up with the brilliant idea of running managed code on an embedded device, is beyond me. The last thing you'd want a scope to do when you press the trigger button is to start garbage collection.As for the "information nanny" -- not the case. Anyone can say just about anything here, even bashing poor judgement -- that's the beauty of these forums, but if you criticize without insightful backup, you're bound to get negative a reaction. There are a lot of haters out there that hate just about everything. Problem is that many of them can't give an intelligent reason for their hatred.

author: fpga
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2013, 01:12:18 am
content: @DiligentMinds.com:If what you say about Keil MDK is true than it would be a game changer in the industry. Do you have actual experience using it in a commercial product or just believing in the marketing material? Do you know what specific commercial products use it?I've banged my head with the RTOS vendors for years. They all sound great on the glossy paper, but once you buy in and start integrating the parts, they are quick to tell you that you are on your own. Things like the TCP/IP stack that you just licensed for $15k along with that $30k RTOS, well you are on your own to port them to your ARM because we only tested them on an x86 with a generic NE2000 Ethernet adapter. Then when you get to see the source code, you realize that they designed it to used the 8037 DMA which has no functional resemblance to the bus master DMA you are adapting. Try telling your manager that the RTOS and stacks he licensed will take you at least a few months to get working. I have yet to see a nice BSP with an RTOS that supports all of the on-chip peripherals and all you have to focus on is developing drivers to your own custom interfaces and the application code.I agree that people are the most expensive resource. That is why using a well supported OS and tools can often be far cheaper than "free" software.I'll take a look at again at the Keil MDK, but I need to see more than the glossies to be convinced.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2013, 01:34:50 am
content: Quote from: fpga on June 22, 2013, 01:12:18 amAltium added something of that scale quite a long time ago, look where it got themAs I recall the licensing was effectively bundled with the designer package and there was no piece part royalty.

author: fpga
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2013, 03:15:20 am
content: Quote from: Someone on June 22, 2013, 01:34:50 amFunny you mention Altium. I bought their package and pay them yearly for maintenance. It's great for schematics and layout, reasons I bought it. It also includes an embedded C compiler and embedded software. But unfortunately they have not updated that part of the product in the last 10 years, and unless you care for using 10 year old micros, its of limited value. Same goes for their FPGA tools -- great for playing around with their NanoBoards, but not much else. So if you can ship a NanoBoard, repackaged as your own product, its great. If you need to design your own board and use a more modern MCU or FPGA, look elsewhere.

author: AlfBaz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2013, 03:36:25 am
content: Quote from: fpga on June 22, 2013, 03:15:20 amFunny you should say that. I remember them offering enclosures for the nanoboard for just that reason

author: fpga
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2013, 03:38:48 am
content: Quote from: DiligentMinds.com on June 22, 2013, 02:40:30 amI know the Keil compiler supports all ARM MCUs, but were the MDK libraries customized for all of the peripherals on each vendors MCU? Do they provide GUI libraries beyond simple vector drawing and widgets, i.e., do they support dialog boxes, popup menus, 2D animation with smooth screen updating, etc.?

author: fpga
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2013, 03:46:03 am
content: Quote from: AlfBaz on June 22, 2013, 03:36:25 amPure genius! Now why do I need the schematic and layout part of Altium if I can just use the Nanoboard and call it my own product?

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 22, 2013, 06:10:53 am
content: Quote from: fpga on June 22, 2013, 03:15:20 amCorrect. Altium never got close to keeping up with embedded/FPGA device support, and never will.It was a novel implementation, and looked great in the demos, but beyond that it was pretty useless and had to many traps for any serious work.Hence hardly anyone used it for anything but traditional schematic/PCB. The embedded and FPGA tool idea was a complete flop, and cost the company almost it's entire several hundred million dollar fortune.Altium really did think everyone would use their FPGA board instead of designing their own! Hence why they offered the PCB tool as "optional extra"(rare triple emoticon worthy)

author: David_AVD
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2013, 06:14:00 am
content: I don't personally know of anyone that uses more than the schematic and pcb design tools in Altium.

author: Bob S
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2013, 01:35:17 pm
content: DiligentMinds..Thanks for attempting to get this thread back on topic. Did Dave even mentioned WinCE in his video?I will have one of these DMMs next week and keep hoping to see some helpful feedback on its overall use.

author: ben_r_
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2013, 05:34:57 pm
content: Quote from: Bob S on June 22, 2013, 01:35:17 pmYes its glad to see that the topic is getting back on track, but in all seriousness, dealing with the bootup time and any other issues there may be is definitely helpful feedback on this device.

author: Leon
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2013, 05:54:57 pm
content: Quote from: ben_r_ on June 22, 2013, 05:34:57 pmI see the bootup time as a non-issue. Benchmeters are not bought for their quick boot properties: you need these puppies to warm up for about an hour before you can do some serious measurements. And waiting for 60 or 61 minutes really isn't that much difference. So you either wait a long time anyway or keep the unit on all of the time on your bench. In any case, a boot time of 50 seconds really is a non-issue. And if you really need a quick and dirty measurement, surely you have a hand-held DMM lying around?

author: grego
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2013, 06:27:11 pm
content: The big question now is splurge on this new 34461A or get a used 34401A on ebay for less than half the price. New shinies are so hard to resist sometimes.

author: grenert
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2013, 07:03:23 pm
content: I completely agree with the complaints about boot-up time. While certainly you need a long time to get accurate precision measurements, you don't always need that level of accuracy. Sure, you could just use a handheld, but if you've already got the bench meter there, why should you have to clutter it up with another meter?If I had a Ferrari, I would hope that it could get me to the corner shop as well as take me around a track

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2013, 12:08:47 am
content: Quote from: DiligentMinds.com on June 22, 2013, 11:05:12 pmIt's run as diff.pairs near the edge of the PCB, so pretty well seperated from the other stuff, and being differential it will already be pretty robust. I can't see why the link from magnetics to Phy should be particularly sensitive - 100Mbits isn't really that high. Take a look at the liberties taken in some cheap DVI cables and switches, which still manage to mostly work...

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 23, 2013, 02:06:56 pm
content: Quote from: ben_r_ on June 21, 2013, 04:34:54 pmI know $800 is a very good price the problem is the shipping price+tax....but i think i get a HMF2525: it's going to be something like 900 eur, used only 3 times and already taxed...

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 03, 2013, 05:03:13 am
content: Quote from: DiligentMinds.com on June 22, 2013, 11:14:51 pmThe 10A range does not have the autoranging.Probably done to use the same shunt resistor value.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 03, 2013, 06:03:36 am
content: Quote from: DiligentMinds.com on July 03, 2013, 05:41:49 amThat wouldn't surprise me. I would expect them to chose a display from a big name with long term support commitments. Not just whatever they can get from the Shenzen market this week

author: Rufus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2013, 01:59:25 pm
content: Quote from: DiligentMinds.com on July 03, 2013, 04:56:11 am10A on a single input would mean the relays (one extra), shunt protection circuits, and front/back terminal switch would all have to be rated at 10A (+ whatever overload they have to take before a 10A fuse blows). If that was practical and economical then why didn't the 34401A do 10A or even 5A?10A on a separate front only terminal costs the terminal, an HRC fuse, and a current shunt.

author: robrenz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2013, 02:09:03 pm
content: Quote from: DiligentMinds.com on June 22, 2013, 10:54:24 pmFluke tech support has told me that they age the references before they go into the 8846A to eliminate the larger initial drift. They would not tell me exactly how long but that it is averylong time. IIRC they actually have a room dedicated to aging references.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 03, 2013, 03:42:54 pm
content: Depends on what you consider initial drift. The LTZ1000 in the HP 3458A used to be binned in the normal models (From memory these were specced 8 ppm/yr) and the high stability option (4 ppm/yr IIRC). After a number of years, the majority of the normal references would be down to the 4 ppm level. I'm sure they aged their references for a long time (unlike for those run-off-the-mill 6.5 digit meters), but there would still be a residual 'initial' drift.

author: Andreas
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2013, 09:09:47 pm
content: Mhm,after having seen the review there are some open questions:Agilent does not seem to have a sliding average function over e.g. 50 measurements.When doing real precision work, just using the 6.5 Digit multimeter as a "null voltmeter" against a high stable reference/calibrator this would be a very useful function.Does the 34461a still use the LM399 as reference or is it replaced by a cheaper LT1236LS8 device and some temperature compensation which was recently launched by LT?How stable the new instrument really is against the old version will be seen after the 3rd calibration cycle....If a LM399 is used as reference: The reference itself has a stability issue when being tilt. So all instruments that I have seen up to now with a LM399 have a more or less drift whether they are placed flat (bottom down) or one of the other 5 directions (e.g. upside down) on the table. (notice: it takes around 1 minute until the readings stabilize).Usually the current consumption of the LM399 heater is a minimum when the legs are in upside direction.So Dave: with the new instrument how much influence does the placement orientation on the table. Should I remove the handle before sending the instrument to calibration (so that they can only put them flat on the table instead of gentle tilting) or has this minor influence?With best regardsAndreas

author: Andreas
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2013, 05:33:46 am
content: The reason for the tilting issiue can be found when having a look at the chip photo of LM399(thanks to branadic for the links).http://m.radiokot.ru/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=52829&start=60The heater structure is built on the right side of the chip which gives a unequal temperature distribution depending on orientation.With best regardsAndreas

author: Dr. Frank
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2013, 06:23:44 pm
content: Quote from: DiligentMinds.com on July 04, 2013, 02:24:39 pmSorry D.M.,what you assume about the 3458A is absolutely incorrect!NIST, PTB and all other metrological institutions wouldn't use such a scrap instrument, like you describe the 3458A.. but you can see it in every other photograph around JJ standards there...Simply study its specifications, i.e. 0.05 + 0.05 ppm transfer accuracy for 10min. and +/- 0.5°C, and you'll directly recognize, that your theoretical assumptions are false.Obviously, you compare the 3458A with the Fluke 8508A, (a 8805A does not exist!), but latter stability specs are even slightly worse, (0.12 + 0.1 ppm for 20min. / +/- 1°C)And also, its T.C. is 0.3ppm/K, compared to 0.15ppm/K for the 3458A.From practise, i.e. from my own measurements, I can tell you, that the 3458A really is able to deliver 8 stable digits on a short time scale, and to < +/-0.1ppm over > 24h, even if the internal temperature changes for a few tenths of °C.Reason for your wrong assumptions: You have lost the overview in the 3458A CLIP, very obviously:The +/-10V reference you mentioned: U400 = LT1013 with RP400, R402, R403, is used in the OHM circuitry only, and its stability is not important for that function at all.The A/D in the 3458A runs instead on +/-12V references, generated on the A/D board by U160, U165 = LT1001 and 4 resistors on the A/D hybrid.For sure, those resistors are T.C. matched, and they are isothermal, so that their influence on stability is very,very low (as the spec proves right).Those OpAmps contribute very little to T.C., but do not add noise in the A/D circuitry, as ChopAmps (as in the 8508A???) would do in that place.I can absolutely recommend to you the 3458A, if you go for best DCV stability and linearity.. although there are some disadvantages in that old design.One is the mistreated LTZ1000 reference, at 95°C , which nearly gives no better 1yr. stability than a LM399. (Can easily be pimped to much better stability).And the 1000V range is not compensated for self heating effects, as is the 8508A.The new 34461A is really nice, because it's a modern and cheaper version of the old 34401A. And the scrappy current ranges are improved a lot.Once again, an improved 1yr. stability for the 34461A would require a well designed LTZ1000 only ( agilent would suck several 100 bucks more for that).You can age the LM399 as long as you like, but you will NEVER get a stable reference out of it..As there exists no spec and no method for reliableageingfor a smaller 1yr. stability, it will drift forever, and everything else is simply wishful and very theoretical thinking.You only have the chance tomonitorrunning references and to sort out the most stable - and that's exactly, what they all (Fluke, agilent,..) are doing.Not to forget: If you need for some reasons 6,5 digits of stability and uncertainty in yourmeasurement, you'll have to use a 7,5 digitinstrument, due to the digital, i.e. 10:1 ranging.A 6,5 digit instrument 'precise' to the last digit won't make sense, therefore.Therefore, a 3458A would be the right choice for that requirement.Frank

author: quarks
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2013, 05:38:57 am
content: about the comparison of HP/Agilent 3458A and Fluke 8508A, the att. charts might be helpfulAll shown graphs represent the 1 year DCV datasheet specs.In this comparison I find the 3458A is not even close to the 8508A accuracy.The 3458A-02 Option looks a little better and comes closer.Only the (Fluke) 3458A/HFL version is in parts of the 10V range a little bit better then the 8508A.BTW I would be interested to know if/where you can actually buy the HFL version and how much it is (or was).http://www.fluke.com/fluke/r0en/digital-multimeters/HP-3458-HFL.htm?PID=56270When I looked at other functions accuracy comparisons I found the Fluke 8508A overall is superior to 3458A.The next best thing to the Fluke 8508A still seems to be the good old Datron/Wavetek 1281.edit: added another chart with changed colors of the 3458A-02 and 3458A/HFL to better see the differenceedit: error correction in HFL and with input about 3458A 1kV range from Dr.Frank revised the chart

author: Dr. Frank
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2013, 07:02:06 pm
content: Quote from: quarks on July 07, 2013, 05:38:57 amHello,interesting charts..but 1 yr. stability might not be the key parameter.transfer accuracy / linearity is often more interesting, and there, 3458A has not been beaten yet.Also don't forget, that the 3458A is VERY mediocre on 1kV DC specification (not shown in your charts), in the small footnotes, you'll find 12ppm cross something squared Volt, for an uncertainty of 12ppm for 1000V only...All other 8,5 DMMs are specified much, much better.Frank

author: lewis
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2013, 12:27:08 am
content: Quote from: quarks on July 07, 2013, 05:38:57 amNice graphs, but which is which? The bottom and the top curves look the same (in colour) to me.Maybe label the curve right next to the curve itself rather than using a key?

author: quarks
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2013, 06:40:47 am
content: Quote from: DiligentMinds.com on July 07, 2013, 06:26:33 pmhere you gohttps://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/8-5-digit-dmm/msg258880/#msg258880

author: quarks
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2013, 06:43:31 am
content: Quote from: lewis on July 08, 2013, 12:27:08 amin the3rd2nd chart there is the legend on the right side (top graph is 3458A, bottom is 8508A in between is 3458A-02 and HFL)

author: quarks
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2013, 10:01:15 am
content: Quote from: Dr. Frank on July 07, 2013, 07:02:06 pmHello Frank,you are right about stability and transfer accuracy / linearity. The 3458A still is a very good meter. I also had it on my wishlist, especially because of the nice/easy artefact calibration with only 10VDC + 10k Ohm references.I found and use my charts for almost all of my considerations and always before making a buying decisions. Therefore when I look at gear, the 1 year specs are the first parameters I compare. Because in my experience most of my better gear (I check regularly), indicates to stay at least within these limits over years.Unfortunately I do not understand your comment about 1kV. I used the att. numbers in the charts (incl. 1kV). Please let me know what is wrong or missing, so I can fix it.byequarks

author: Dr. Frank
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2013, 10:32:54 am
content: Quote from: quarks on July 08, 2013, 10:01:15 amIn the specification (e.g. page 82 in the calibration manual), you'll find footnote 6 for the 1kV DCV range:"Add 12 ppm X (Vin/1000)2 additional error for inputs >100 V."That means, you have to add a quadratic term for the 1kV range, culminating in additional 12ppm for 1kV.=> 1000V: 24h = 14.6ppm, 1yr = 22.1ppmThis describes the shift in the 100:1 divider, due to self heating effects.All other DVM will have this same effect in their high voltage divider, but obviously have software to compensate for that (to 1ppm level), e.g. by adding additional cal points at 500V and 1000V.The full autocal feature of the 3458A does not allow such a compensation calibration...In practise I have measured about 3-4 ppm additionally for my 3458A @ 1000V, measured directly with a Fluke 5442A (this instrument has an oven-stabilization/compensation of its range resistors) and by comparison with my DIY precision Hamon type 100:1 divider, which should be by design uncertain to < 1ppm @ 1kV.Which other DVM / standards really have full auto-cal or artefact calibration capabilities, i.e. calibration by 10V and 10kOhm references only?I know the 3458A, the 5440/5442, the 720A, 752A, and the 5700/5720 only.As DVMs are not accepted and not usable as real 'standards' (e.g. statement from NIST), it is more helpful to have external 10V, 10kOhm standards (stable ones) instead, and then forget about the 1yr. specs of the DVM.Together with the autocal feature of the 3458A, such a system is much more versatile...And not to forget: The references drift mainly if they are powered on.If you switch the 3458A off most of the time, its 1yr. drift will be very low, even with the regular 8ppm/yr. reference.Best regards Frank

author: quarks
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2013, 12:25:54 pm
content: Quote from: Dr. Frank on July 08, 2013, 10:32:54 amThanks Frank, now I got it. I revised the chart with this detail.Quote from: Dr. Frank on July 08, 2013, 10:32:54 amThat is exactly what attracted me most. I actually bought my SR104 to be ready for a 3458A.BTW: Maybe this whole page 13 should be moved tohttps://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/8-5-digit-dmm/msg258880/#msg258880by an admin

author: Lawsen
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 09, 2013, 12:48:19 am
content: I totally like the graphic display and color, too. This is a nice improvement to the original HP-34401A "alf code name of HP (Agilent)." The price is reasonable for a bench top multimeter. I like the menu buttons along the bottom and USB memory port, but I will not need that feature.

author: KedasProbe
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2013, 10:24:37 pm
content: While I was comparing specs:The burden voltage on the ranges 1A and 3A are very high compared to other DMM even the BM869 (45mV/A) is much better, their 10A range is then normal again.1A < 0.7V3A < 2.0V10A < 0.5VThe 2 lowest ranges 100µA and 1mA are very good though even better than the Fluke 8846A. (<0.11V vs <0.15V)They only make you switch to the 0.01ohm shunt (10A terminal) above 3A.The DM3068 makes you switch to this shunt above 200mA the Fluke above 400mA (BM869 >500mA)So it makes you switch later but you pay a big price for it. Measuring 1A will be with lower resolution or bigger burden voltage.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2013, 09:18:09 am
content: QuoteWhat is the basis for that statement?

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 14, 2013, 09:59:55 am
content: Quote from: DiligentMinds.com on July 14, 2013, 12:35:09 amThe 10A range is fixed, it does not do autoranging. If you want the lower range you have to use the 3A input.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 14, 2013, 08:40:38 pm
content: Does Agilent release schematics for equipment when it gets old, or is it just that old equipment was released when the policy about releasing schematics was different? I can't see a good business case for Agilent releasing schematics when equipment gets near EOL. Sure, it might get them a tiny amount of goodwill, but it won't give them many new sales for that instrument. Unless they make this a written police, it won't help them selling newer equipment either.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2013, 08:56:47 pm
content: Links to any released Agilent (as opposed to HP) schematics anyone?

author: lewis
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2013, 09:25:18 pm
content: www.schemati..... bugger.

author: lewis
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2013, 10:14:15 pm
content: The 3458 schematic is here:http://www.schematicsunlimited.com/h/hp-agilentbut it's an HP schematic, not 'Agilent'.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 14, 2013, 10:19:15 pm
content: Component level information packages (CLIPs) are usually for sale to customers, although they might cost around $200 (not that big of a deal given the price of a 3458a). As far as I know, both the 3458a and 34401a schematics were released either when the instrument was released or shortly after. At which point the availability can still affect purchase decisions.

author: plesa
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2013, 06:56:33 am
content: The Agilents offered manuals does not contain schematic, which is the biggest pain in the ass when you are troubleshooting.E.G for 20k spectrum analyzer they only offer assembly level service quide with block diagrams and list of service parts for $500.As far as I know Agilent does not release schematic anymore, only for instrumnets which were released prior Agilent takeover HP.The 34401A and the 3458A are not good example, try to find the schematic for 34411A.In my job we had to send many time the instruments for repair to one company which was takeover by Tektronix and everytime the repair cost more than new instrument. But they offer the discount for the brand new ;-) Their service did not try to replace or troubleshoot, just replace whole main board. In most cases it will need to replace just transistor or opamp and calibrate it.

author: KedasProbe
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2013, 12:44:43 pm
content: About the true RMS it only takes the AC component of it, present in the spec. sheet(doesn't really make it true RMS from my point of view)I just checked with my DM3068 and since there is an filter in it (3Hz and up) it also only shows the AC component.Also the reason why the Gaussian pulse of the DG4160 seemed wrong, the AC component was right.(the cardiac one and others are still wrong though I only measure 0.63Vrms)The DG4160 signal has the mean in the middle between peaks (not DC mean, after cap)My Brymen BM869 is doing true RMS of the signal (DC+AC) it even shows the AC only part in the dual screen.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 26, 2013, 07:35:56 pm
content: RMS stands for the root mean square, or sqrt(mean(x^2)). It does not specify what this x is. The datasheet only mentions true RMS in the context of AC voltage or current. The true in true RMS is there because these meters measure the RMS value, unlike average responding meters that rectify the signal and multiply the average by sqrt(2), which is only accurate for purely sinusoidal signals ('fake RMS').If I press the 'Vac' button, then I expect to read the AC voltage, not AC+DC. This is important for for example ripple measurements. I don't mind an extra AC+DC feature, although I find sqrt(Vac^2+Vdc^2) as easy as switching to AC+DC mode. If AC+DC is important for you, then you should specifically look for this feature. It's not a standard feature, as you have found out.

author: KedasProbe
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2013, 08:11:59 pm
content: I agree if they offer AC+DC then they should obviously also have DC and AC only.I just find it strange that it's missing AC+DC for a new device and mention the relation to what the function generator was generating.You can measure them separately and add(rms) them together on your calculator though. (so it's not that you can't determine it)

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 31, 2013, 02:34:33 am
content: New firmware just released:http://www.home.agilent.com/agilent/software.jspx?ckey=2367633&lc=eng&cc=US&nid=-536902435.1058513&id=2367633Changes:Quote

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 31, 2013, 01:01:06 pm
content: I can confirm it boots in about 30 seconds now. Much better.

author: ben_r_
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 31, 2013, 04:22:30 pm
content: Nice. Now that I think I could just barely starting living with.

author: plesa
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 31, 2013, 04:40:47 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on July 22, 2013, 02:26:13 pmIs it for continuous reading or there is some time period which is not covered - during reading data?

author: neslekkim
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 08, 2014, 10:55:02 pm
content: So, I got this meter the other day, lots of things to learn, looks like an very decent meter.But, I have an fluke, with thermocouple adapter, and an thermocouple beadprobe, For some reason, that adapter does not fit this meter (physically), and, it seems that this meter is not compatible with ktype thermocouples?, only thermistor?, and rtd's?

author: ielektros
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 08, 2014, 11:19:52 pm
content: Yes. The 34461 is not compatible with K-type thermocouples. I bought same DMM yesterday.Very good multimeter. The first impressions are quiet good. Only I can't use with Windows8.1 and BenchVue together. I tried a whole day to configure without results. Thats make me crazy a little bit...

author: ben_r_
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2014, 04:08:26 pm
content: Quote from: neslekkim on March 08, 2014, 10:55:02 pmYea this was a let down for me too. The only Agilent device of any reasonable price I found that will use and log thermocouples was one of their DataLoggers which was quite expensive and required accessories to make it work. Not ideal at all. Thats why I picked up a Fluke 53 II B for my thermocouple and datalogging needs. My Fluke 289 will do it as well but only with K-Type thermocouples and half the accuracy of the Fluke 51, 52, 53, 54 series.

author: neslekkim
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2014, 04:43:30 pm
content: And the Agilent is an benchmeter, not needing to feed the batteries.. i have av 289 also, but I was not very crazy about the whole deal around the expensive proprietary software for datalogging from Fluke.I wonder if that is something that could change through an firmware update, it's just voltages to be measured..But It seems like the distance between the terminals is slightly different than on the fluke meters, since I cannot push the thermocouple adapter in? or is the meter to new?

author: HKJ
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2014, 05:06:29 pm
content: Quote from: neslekkim on March 10, 2014, 04:43:30 pmNot just voltage, you must also measure the temperature of the connection.

author: ben_r_
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2014, 05:13:48 pm
content: Quote from: neslekkim on March 10, 2014, 04:43:30 pmIts a bit more than just measuring the voltages unfortunately. Read the wiki on thermocouples and youll see what I mean. That beaing said, the $135 (LINK) FlukeView software with the cable isnt really too bad a price considering its cheaper than a good quality dedicated digital thermocouple based thermometer (like the Fluke 50 series). And you can use the software with a number of other devices and on your 289 you can use it for all types of other logging. Personally I cant imagine owning a 289 without it.

author: Sparky
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 12, 2014, 06:05:40 pm
content: I'm interested! I have 34461A and it would be great to have flexibility to stream data from it, so I'd be interested in testing if it works, or the changes needed. Could you upload your project to GitHub? Thanks!

author: plesa
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 20, 2014, 09:19:15 pm
content: Does anybody knows how to add the timestamp to .csv logging?

author: Sparky
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2014, 12:54:04 am
content: Quote from: plesa on March 20, 2014, 09:19:15 pmI am not sure, but mojo-chan has done a fair bit of work with the 34461A; I'm still hoping he will report back with his updated script for streaming 10kS/sec from the multimeter.

author: plesa
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2014, 10:23:53 pm
content: Thanks, I was probably not clear enough. I mean for logging to USB drive.Some fast digitizing can be useful. But without details it is useles :-)For such a fast reading I suppose that LAN is only one option.There were some app notes related to digitizing with 34411A.

author: Sparky
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2014, 10:36:18 pm
content: Okay, no worries! Thanks for the update and tips! Love your application of the 34410A for streaming high accuracy current / voltage measurements from battery powered devices! Neat!I will play with the 34461A, and see what can be created with MATLAB!

author: plesa
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2014, 11:09:42 pm
content: Interesting with 34411A is USB only little bit slower than LAN32-bit BinaryGPIB 89,000USB 265,000VXI 110,000LAN 270,000

author: Sparky
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 24, 2014, 06:00:50 pm
content: Thanksmojo-chan! I looked for your screenshots earlier, but didn't find any. Thanks for posting some!This is the first time I've heard of KST (http://kst-plot.kde.org/) and it looks like an awesome data visualization tool --- cross-platform and free, too!If I understand correctly, you did not integrate the "data logging" into a KST application. Rather, you have a separate (command line) utility to start/stop the data sampling from the Agilent DMM, and save the results to text file. Then, you use the KST to show the results.I suppose it could be possible to build a KST application with the data logging integrated with it, so that real-time plotting was possible?

author: neslekkim
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 24, 2014, 07:15:18 pm
content: I have been searching around to find documentations and sample code for programming against the 34461A, the Agilent website is useless, I'm not finding much and it seems like some information are scattered around.On this blogpost I found an link with more info than the productpage for the 34461:http://gpete-neil.blogspot.no/2013/11/continuous-measurements-with-34461a.htmlAnd on this there is an link to some C# code, but when I download the archive mentioned here, it does not contain the same samples as discussed on the blog:http://gpete-neil.blogspot.no/2014/03/scpi-programming-with-visual-studio.htmlDoes it exist anything better than this?, for instance, is it not possible to get binary data from the meter?, on some it seems you can use somehting like:FORMat:DATA:REAL,32or something like that to get binary?

author: Sparky
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 24, 2014, 09:04:46 pm
content: Quote from: plesa on March 21, 2014, 11:09:42 pmThe numbers quoted byplesaare from the 34411A data sheet, page 4 (which I've attached). These speeds are specific to readout from of data memory ("Path B"), not coming from the ADC ("Path C") -- see pic on page 4.It would help everyone to quote where you get the values from, or if they are your own measurements.

author: dc101
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 25, 2014, 01:47:43 am
content: Thanks many for the links! I've been looking for an easy solution to chart data for the past month. I recently got a DC load and wanted to make some voltage vs time plots of batteries. This looks like just the program.

author: alex.forencich
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 25, 2014, 05:24:08 am
content: Quote from: neslekkim on March 24, 2014, 07:15:18 pmI think for most instruments, the format command will affect all calls to read out data. So if that format:data command puts it in 32 bit floating point format, then all subsequent calls to readout methods should return data in that format. Just make sure you read it out correctly, it may have an IEEE block format header that needs to be stripped off.

author: neslekkim
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 25, 2014, 06:11:46 am
content: My point is that there is no docmented Format function in this "manual"Do Anyone know how to unpack the firmware upd file?, so I could extract the strings out from that?

author: plesa
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 25, 2014, 08:28:42 pm
content: Quote from: neslekkim on March 24, 2014, 07:15:18 pmIt is quite usable link, thanks for sharing. It looks like Agilent semi-official blog.I will try it and compare the 34461A and 34411A performance.

author: Sparky
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 25, 2014, 09:28:27 pm
content: Quote from: plesa on March 25, 2014, 08:28:42 pmWill be great to see your results! I have 34461A (which its data sheet lists the streaming data rate at 1kS/sec), but 34411A is a beast! Very interested to read about your findings.

author: plesa
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 27, 2014, 07:37:36 am
content: The fastest readings which I achieved34411A 4476 readings/sec with NPLC 0,00134461A 991 readings/sec with NPLC 0,02The most fancy will be faster but continuous reading.

author: neslekkim
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 27, 2014, 12:28:51 pm
content: DISP:STAT OFF ?if you only use lan or usb, would it have any point to disable the other also?and for reading, is it typically DATA:REM 10 or SAM:COUN 10 ? / READ ?And is it only the document named "Agilent Truevolt Series DMM Operating and Service Guide" that contains anything of interrest?

author: Sparky
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 27, 2014, 04:50:49 pm
content: Quote from: plesa on March 27, 2014, 07:37:36 amFor the 34461A, this seems very reasonable --- the data sheet lists 1000 readings/sec.The result for 34411A seems very far off reported maximums in the data sheet/users guide. On p126 of the 34411A Users Guide it says that with 0.001 NPLC, 50k readings/sec is possible (for DCV, DCI and 2-Wire resistance measures).Refer to the footnotes on p135 (pic attached) for the conditions for maximum measurement rate: ½ scale input signal, immediate trigger, trigger delay 0, autozero off, autorange off, no math, 60 Hz line, null off, sample count 50000, trigger count INFMany of the suggestions frommojo-chancan be found in the footnotes in the Specifications of the Users Guide.

author: Sparky
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 27, 2014, 06:08:53 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on March 27, 2014, 04:57:28 pmThe table I posted says "Direct I/O Measurements, any remote interface, Sustained maximum reading rate..." For DCV and 2-Wire ohms, it states 50k readings per second, which I interpret as continuous streaming of measurements. Even if it is a theoretical maximum, it is a lot higher than "34411A 4476 readings/sec with NPLC 0,001" reported by plesa. That's all that I was getting at when I said "The result for 34411A seems very far off..." There are a lot of settings (as listed under the table), for how to achieve the maximum rate; perhaps plesa can compare his setup to those settings.I didn't notice, but where/how does the data sheet imply that 50,000 samples is the maximum count, i.e. only 1 second and not 20 seconds of continuous measurements? Thanks!

author: plesa
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2014, 08:29:53 am
content: Short update.34411A 6966 readings/s34461A 1088 rediangs/secDisabling display makes only small difference and disabling interface seems to have some dependency.

author: KedasProbe
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2014, 09:32:05 am
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on March 28, 2014, 08:45:48 amIf it's the same as the DM3068 then you need to multiply this 50000 with the number of triggers.

author: Sparky
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2014, 05:45:28 am
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on March 28, 2014, 08:45:48 amI need to do some continuous temperature measurements on my 34461A, so I've followed up on the trigger and sample count aspect. The following is all relevant to single trigger recordings, but it's a clarification nonetheless:For the34461A, the User's Guide (p 114) says:"You can use the specified sample count (SAMPle:COUNt) in conjunction with a trigger count (TRIGger:COUNt), which sets the number of triggers to be accepted before returning to the "idle" trigger state. The total number of measurements returned will be the product of the sample count and trigger count."And it gives an example: return ten sets of five DC voltage measurements, using a positive-going external trigger to start each measurement set:Code:CONF:VOLT:DCSAMP:COUN 5TRIG:COUN 10TRIG:SOUR EXT;SLOP POSREAD?Typical Response: +1.00520000E+01, … (50 measurements)It seems you could collect 10k samples with just one trigger using: SAMPle:COUNt 10000, TRIGger:COUNt 1At the maximum 1000 samples/Sec, that would be a 10sec acquisition time.For the34410Aand34411Athe relevant User's Guide (p 71) says:"By default, when the multimeter is in the wait–for–trigger state, it takes one reading (or sample) each time you trigger the multimeter. You can, however, instruct the multimeter to take up to 50,000 readings (up to 1 million for the 34411A/L4411A) each time a trigger is initiated, whether from the front panel or remote interface."In the spec's (p 137) it confirms:Triggering and MemorySamples per Trigger: 1 to 50,000 (34410A)1 to 1,000,000 (34411A/L4411A)So according to the spec's it should be possible to acquire 50k Samples/sec on the 34411A, continuously for 20sec, and fill up the 1M sample memory.QuoteOn the sample blog mentioned byneslekkim, it has a page onUsing a DMM as a Low Frequency Analyzer, and with reference to the 34411A it says "The sample rate is adjustable and ranges from around 1 S/s at greater than 20 bits of resolution to 50 KS/s at 14 bits of resolution. At 50 KS/s we can analyze signal frequency components below 25 KHz." A MATLAB and VEE program are provided to test!plesaI wonder if you checked those programs with your 34411A? Would be great to hear if you can increase the sample rate from your latest result.

author: neslekkim
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2014, 11:43:23 am
content: aha, I was wondering why i got that Error sign..I was messing around with Benchvue and iotrace(?), and I had to reboot the meter afterwards, it thought it still was controlled remotely, and the error sign did not go away

author: alex.forencich
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2014, 03:58:45 am
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on March 31, 2014, 09:01:12 amHow do you get a regular trigger in this mode? As far as I can tell, the only trigger options are 'bus', 'immediate', and 'external'. Bus and immedate both require a command to be sent to he meter to take a measruement, so the trigger jitter will depend on the jitter of the commands from the control software (which will likely be pretty bad). External requires an external trigger source, so this is not really all that useful. Is there any to get the meter to take an arbitrary number of samples separated by the trigger delay, without any time-dependent intervention by the control software?

author: Sparky
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2014, 04:13:35 am
content: Quote from: alex.forencich on April 01, 2014, 03:58:45 amYes, there is. From the 34461A users guide (p 255):TRIGger:DELay Sets the delay between the trigger signal and the first measurement. This may be useful in applications where you want to allow the input to settle before taking a measurement or for pacing a burst of measurements.Also see: SAMPle:COUNt and TRIGger:COUNt

author: alex.forencich
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2014, 07:52:19 am
content: Quote from: Sparky on April 01, 2014, 04:13:35 amYes, but this is limited to the maximum SAMPLE:COUNT setting. If I want to take an arbitrary number (say 100,000,000) measurements, how do I do that? On my 34401A, I can do up to 50,000 before I have to send the meter another trigger, and this will interrupt the measurement flow. My question is how do you work around this? You can set trigger:count to inifinity, but it is not clear to me how to utilize this.

author: Sparky
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2014, 08:26:52 am
content: Quote from: alex.forencich on April 01, 2014, 07:52:19 amAh, so you need the DMM to continuously acquire readings, and in the background transfer data to your PC. In a blog post mentioned earlierContinuous Measurements with a 34461A Digital Multimeterthe author writes:"DATA:REM? X, WAIT - This command tells the DMM to take an X number of readings from its reading buffer and send them to the PC. If the number of readings is not available then the WAIT parameter tells the DMM to wait until they are available before sending it over. This command and R? are the the most efficient reading commands for the DMM to process.These commands are also supported on the 34410A and 34411A...."So,DATA:REM? X, WAITmay do what you want, but I don't know if it's supported on 34401A.

author: alex.forencich
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2014, 08:32:14 am
content: Quote from: Sparky on April 01, 2014, 08:26:52 amThe issue is not transferring the measurements, it is taking them in the first place.If I want to take 1 measurement every second for a week (1.2 million samples), all I need to do is write a script to trigger every measurement and then read it out. With some careful coding and a computer that reports times to a sufficient resolution, this works well.If I want to take 100 measurements per second for 10 seconds (1000 samples), I can configure the meter to do that with the samples:count seting and the trigger:delay setting, trigger it once, and stream out all of the samples so the memory does not overflow. Not too bad.However, if I want to take 100 measurements per second for two weeks (120 million samples), I cannot configure the meter to do this as it requires more samples than I can set samples:count to. Nor can I trigger each sample reliably because the triggers from the control computer would have too much jitter. It would be possible to do with a function generator set to 100 Hz connected to the trigger input, but this should not be necessary as the meter is perfectly capable of timing its own samples with trigger:delay. Also, if I set the unit to take samples in blocks of some size, say 10,000 samples, then every 10,000 samples there will be a 'jump' in the timebase when the unit needs to be re-triggered for the next block, again due to the jitter from the control computer. See what I am getting at here?The ideal solution would be to set samples:count to infinity. But none of the meters allow this. So, what is the workaround? How do you capture very long records with a reasonable sample rate (>> 1 Sa/s) with a jitter-free timebase?

author: Sparky
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2014, 08:58:29 am
content: Quote from: alex.forencich on April 01, 2014, 08:32:14 amSorry for side-tracking your question; you stated the issue clearly enough in the beginning but I hadn't got the subtlety of the matter.Your question is a good one, but to what extend could Agilent (or any manufacturer) reasonably provide a mechanism to do this? To illustrate with an even more extreme example, what if you wanted to acquire 1k readings per second for the next 20 years, without an external trigger.How would you design for it? Can you describe what kinds of settings or parameters would be needed? Whatever your requirements, it may not satisfy the next guy.I can't think of a solution to what you want to achieve.Edit:After reading your edits, my comments above are also a bit side tracked.... sorry! In the end it is quite simple question, and your suggestion "samples:count to infinity" would seem a perfect solution (good thinking!). The only need is a command to terminate the sampling when you wish to do so. I wonder why no manufacturer has done that?

author: alex.forencich
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2014, 09:13:32 am
content: Quote from: Sparky on April 01, 2014, 08:58:29 amWhat really puzzles me is that you can set trigger:count to infinite, but not sample:count. A remote interface clear will get the instrument out of the 'wait for trigger' state. There is no technical reason that I know of that sample:count is restricted.The only reason I ask is because I am putting together a Python script for logging off of my 34401A as an example of how you can use Python IVI, and I want to make it as generic as possible, perhaps even just 'log at rate x until cancelled'. Having a limit of 50,000 samples or whatever seems rather arbitrary, so I thought I would ask and see if there were any known solutions.

author: macboy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2014, 01:05:49 pm
content: Quote from: alex.forencich on April 01, 2014, 08:32:14 amWhy assume that the trigger needs to come from the PC? Can't you just set the measurement trigger to "immediate" (TRIGger:SOURce IMMediate)? As soon as one 10000-sample measurement is complete, it should start taking another.... am I dreaming? If I am, then accept my appoligies. I don't have a Agilent meter, I am a Keithley user.

author: neslekkim
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2014, 04:13:28 pm
content: I tried to use the IO trace thingy that comes with the NI software, but it seems like it is not logging everything, if I run commands like IDN etc, it's logged, and it logs something when benchvue is trying to connect to my meter (which mostly always fail with an exception)Isn't agilent's software using these drivers maybe?, going right to socket? (I got two meters listed when I added my meter in the VISA setup)

author: KedasProbe
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2014, 06:53:13 pm
content: Doesn't this code explain for you how to use it.... (earlier in this thread)https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-agilent-34461a-6-5-digit-bench-multimeter/msg265426/#msg265426

author: TVman
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2014, 09:13:04 pm
content: That is AWESOME!!!

author: alex.forencich
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 05, 2014, 01:55:59 am
content: Quote from: macboy on April 01, 2014, 01:05:49 pmGood point. This looks like it should work. Not sure how I missed that before. However: after some poking around on my 34401A meter, it seems that it is not possible to use this mode for arbitrary length captures. It seems that the 34401A firmware does not allow reading out measurements while in the wait-for-trigger state. The 'fetch' call can only return the entire memory content of up to 512 samples after the acquisition is complete, and all of the samples to collect must fit into this memory. Also, the meter will not enter the wait-for-trigger state if the settings can capture more than 512 data points, failing with an 'insufficient memory' error.Why would this meter allow a selection of 50,000 samples or 50,000 or infinite triggers even though it will fail with an insufficient memory error if the product of these is greater than 512 with any trigger source? Is it even possible to use the infinite trigger count mode on the 34401A?

author: KedasProbe
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 25, 2014, 12:50:11 pm
content: It is documented in the user guide.My DM3068 only has the fastest one 0.006 on a higher speed but that's logical since you want to give the same max speed of 10000hz for 50hz and 60hz users.

author: KedasProbe
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 25, 2014, 03:59:12 pm
content: Maybe it's easier if you just set the integration time instead of PLC ratio.

author: KedasProbe
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2014, 01:33:02 pm
content: Are you sure?: (from manual)Quote

author: dp
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 15, 2014, 05:33:52 pm
content: Hi,There is something I don't understand about this DMM: why is it rated 6.5 digit? With ranges of 0.1 - 1 - 10 - 100 there is no way it can provide that "half" digit, it can display only 6 digits, no matter what value it displays. To be 6.5 digit the ranges should be 0.2 - 2 - 20 - 200, so that you get 7 digits when reading values between 1 and 2 (on the 2 range) and 6 digits for lower values (as in the case of, say, Rigol DM3068).What am I missing?

author: HKJ
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 15, 2014, 05:43:59 pm
content: Quote from: dp on May 15, 2014, 05:33:52 pmThat is fairly common for high end DMM, the 6½ digit only means that it can show slightly above 6 digit, i.e. 1200000 is enough.Anyway, the actual precision is not high enough that it really matters.

author: KedasProbe
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 15, 2014, 06:32:12 pm
content: Seeing/getting that extra digit does matter for me (at 100PLC), I will decide what is useful and what isn't: see example:The exported csv of the DM3068 is giving what the 34461A is displaying (the left column)

author: Zucca
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 25, 2014, 11:17:35 pm
content: Just discovered a new FW 1.10 released on the 2014-06-20, seems like a minor updatehttp://www.home.agilent.com/agilent/software.jspx?ckey=2367633&lc=eng&cc=US&nid=-536902435.1058513&id=2367633in attachment the release note... so a failed SELF TEST 34461a unit with FW 1.09, could be easily fixed by the FW 1.10? Ebay buyer be aware! O0

author: VK5RC
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 26, 2014, 01:17:11 am
content: Doesn't the update fix the current potential problem of a false report of failed ac offset testing ie not failed , but from the update a repeat test would declare if a true fault existed?eBay buyers may get a bargain of a 'as is' failed self test 344601, then update the f-ware and have an on specification machine!

author: neslekkim
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2014, 09:22:41 am
content: Interresting that Agilent doesn't bother to send out info about new firmware or other software revisions at all, especially since I have registered my unit on their site..

author: engineer_in_shorts
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2014, 09:25:55 am
content: Quote from: neslekkim on July 26, 2014, 09:22:41 amStops them being bombarded with support questions following unnecessary upgrades... a lot of customers may not be affected/require the update.

author: BVH
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2014, 05:30:20 pm
content: I’ve been looking at specs and video reviews on 6 ½ digit DMMs for the last 4 days. I don’t “need” a 6.5 digit meter but I am very interested in electrical and electronics and I “want” one. Some background. I’m 61, retired and my most enjoyable hobby is finding, acquiring and repairing older 1960’s – 1980’s vintage military long-range Short Arc searchlights and modern day aviation Short Arc searchlights. These lights produce laser-like beams down to 1 degree and project that beam for 2+ miles – much further than the unaided eye can see. As such, I do some basic troubleshooting, parts testing and replacement and re-wiring on the lights themselves and on the short arc power supplies including their 35KV to 45KV ignition systems. I also enjoy finding “for parts” variable DC power supplies and trying to repair them.I want a bench meter capable of absolute 3-decimal place accuracy. When performing the posted accuracy calculation for the Fluke 8846A and the Agilent 34461A, my net results show that even when using the 1-year maximum error percentage factors, the result will not impact the 1st, 2nd & 3rd Decimal digits. Is this correct?I’ve tentatively narrowed my search to the Fluke 8846A, the Agilent 34410A or the 34461A. From what I can see, the Fluke is capable of a bit better accuracy over the Agilent 34461A but I love the tft screen on the Agilent and if it can give me that guaranteed 3-place accuracy, then I would lean towards that meter. The software for the Agilent units also seems to be much more user-friendly and feature-rich when used on a PC.I’m guessing that any of these units would be very much overkill for my novice needs but all the same, I would appreciate thoughts and opinions as I enjoy hearing what others with much more experience have to say. Thank you in advance.

author: robrenz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2014, 06:55:10 pm
content: I am a BIG 8846A fanboy andIFyou need the extra ppms and ranges/features it provides you will be very happy.ButI suggest you buy the 34461A because the user interface, graphing/charting capabilities and software are much nicer than the 8846A.I am very glad I bought a 8846A but my second meter would be a 34461A. That is until Keithley comes out with their new 6.5 digit meter with a interface similar to the 2450 SMU

author: BVH
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2014, 07:37:23 pm
content: Will the Keithley be out any time soon and are its specs supposed to be similar to the Fluke or Agilent? Any links to speculation threads?Being a novice, I certainly know the Fluke and HP Agilent names but am not familiar with Keithley. I assume it's on the same level (subject to differing personal opinions, of course)?Is price point going to be similar?

author: robrenz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2014, 07:46:41 pm
content: No idea on the time frame but I am pretty sure it is being worked on as we speak.

author: BVH
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2014, 10:38:37 pm
content: Is the 2x4 wire resistance measurement system that Fluke touts unique to their meters or can the Agilent do the same using the Fluke 2x4 special lead set?

author: robrenz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2014, 02:36:39 am
content: AFIK it is a Fluke only feature.

author: engineer_in_shorts
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2014, 06:20:21 am
content: Quote from: BVH on August 01, 2014, 10:38:37 pm2x4 wire resistance is only a feature to try and reduce the clutter on your desk by having a lead set that can do voltage measurements as well as 4 wire resistance measurements. Personally i do not like the idea as you have to purchase specially made 4 wire leads from fluke. I prefer to make my own test harnesses most of the time.

author: engineer_in_shorts
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2014, 06:38:55 am
content: Quote from: BVH on August 01, 2014, 05:30:20 pmNumbers of decimal digits is hard to give an answer for since we do not know how big the values are you are measuring. At hundreds of volts you have three digits before the decimal place!Usually the places to watch out (lowest accuracy) are AC voltage on extremes of the frequency range, and AC current. For example the Agilent (now keysight) AC voltage above 100kHz is 4%.Also understand the difference between resolution, the manufacturer stated accuracy, and the total uncertainty of measurement.This is a good read:http://cp.literature.agilent.com/litweb/pdf/5989-4879EN.pdfand same from flukehttp://support.fluke.com/calibration-sales/Download/Asset/2547797_6200_ENG_A_W.PDF

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 02, 2014, 08:05:01 am
content: Quote from: BVH on August 01, 2014, 07:37:23 pmIt would have to be to compete, but Keithley have never been in that game of chasing the bottom market.Agilent were very aggressive on the pricing for the 34461A, and I wouldn't expect Keithley to match it.

author: BVH
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2014, 04:24:01 pm
content: QuoteGood points. 98% or more of my work is with 36 VDC & below and 100 Amps & below (I have other meters for the Amps work). With Series configured batteries and their balanced charging systems, I get into double-digit mAh measurements. I think I have a good handle on accuracy and resolution. Resolution being the number of places to the right of the Decimal a meter can resolve down to and accuracy being how much higher and lower the true measurement can be as compared to the display reading. I'll go have a read at the links. Thanks.I'm not in a real hurry but I am excited to get something to work/play with. Paying a few hundred bucks more is not a huge barrier for this purchase so if the Keithley was a month or two out and near the cost of the Fluke 8846A, I could probably control myself long enough to see how its' specs, screen and PC software compare. Is there any idea floating around in how far out it might be?

author: Sparky
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 17, 2014, 04:19:55 pm
content: As an update to earlier discussions about programs to continuously stream measurements from the 34461A to a PC, I updated and cleaned up some Agilent MATLAB scripts. I've attached two files: one is the main script to setup the DMM and read out measurements, the other is a simple helper script to check the DMM for errors.The code is set to read 100000 measurements, and it does so by reading 2000 sets of 50 measurements each. On my PC, the MATLAB output is:Code:Data remaining : 0Time elapsed : 90.909 secAcquisition rate: 1100.0006 samples/secIndicating the 100000 samples were acquired in just over 90 sec.I might make a graphical interface with controls to adjust the # samples, etc. If so, I'll post it here.Cheers!

author: rodpp
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 29, 2014, 12:00:34 am
content: Quote from: Sparky on August 17, 2014, 04:19:55 pmThank you for share your work.It is helpful to have a code example from start, it will be very useful.Here is the result in my computer:Code:Data remaining : 0Time elapsed : 90.8939 secAcquisition rate: 1100.1841 samples/sec

author: Sparky
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 29, 2014, 05:31:32 am
content: Quote from: rodpp on August 29, 2014, 12:00:34 amThank you for the commentrodpp! I'm glad to know someone was able to use the MATLAB code -- I hope it proves a good starting point and easy to modify. I am using the script often so I will probably make a GUI for it.Cheers!

author: BVH
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 14, 2014, 04:24:03 pm
content: Can my 34461A measure the Internal Resistance of my Lithium Polymer RC battery cells using my 4-wire Kelvin probes without being damaged by the approximate 4.2 VDC contained in the cells? Typical resistance in good cells is between 1.5 and 5.0 mOhms.

author: LabSpokane
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 15, 2014, 04:43:55 am
content: Quote from: BVH on September 14, 2014, 04:24:03 pmWhy not use the 4 wire leads on an external current shunt?

author: MarkPalmer
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 15, 2014, 01:52:52 pm
content: I see everyone in the TE business is jumping on the color TFT bandwagon in very short order for just about everything. Reason being the displays are just so nice and pleasant to read! I got my first one on an Applent LCR meter and after using it I don’t like other antiquated displays too much, especially monochrome LCD’s. (Ok, still a place in heart for nixies and red LED’s..) But I never cared for those green VFD’s- they remind me too much of 1970’s Unisonic calculators and after a few years, they all start to get dim.-Mark-

author: LabSpokane
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 16, 2014, 06:51:14 pm
content: Quote from: MarkPalmer on September 15, 2014, 01:52:52 pmI can sum up the 34461A display in a word: brilliant. I read all the nonsense and angst over the meter here. Any worries about the meter only matter on the internet. In person, it's just fantastic and the display is a huge improvement. I love the charting feature. I just wish that it would save directly to the USB stick and time stamp the readings. Those are minor gripes for something so well executed.By the way, when I ordered, disty was backordered 2 months. It's very popular. I had to get one just because the pair of 34401s I had in my work lab were so useful.

author: BVH
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2014, 08:15:31 pm
content: Yesterday, I was making up some #4 AWG cables for one of my tank lights. It's a soldered joint. For this size cable, I use a micro torch because my 50 watt Hakko station just doesn't cut it. I filled the contact solder cup with just the right amount of solder. I then used a bit of liquid flux on the bare cable and used my homemade solder pot to tin the 5/8" length of bare cable. With the contact in my vice squeezed by wood blocks, I re-heated the contact cup and slowly dipped the tinned cable into the cup - and kept the torch on the contact for about 5 seconds to allow the cable to heat up properly.I've never had a quality Ohm meter so I've never tested any of my joints. So I tested this one using the 2-wire probes. I was surprised and disappointed to see 0.033 Ohms measured from a bit of bare cable behind the joint and the contact rubbing surface - about 1 1/2" total length. I was in Auto Scale and Auto Zero. I thought about this last night and was feeling pretty bad about my soldering abilities. Today, I remembered that I didn't do a "zeroing" of the probes before I took my measurements. So I fired up the meter, punched in 2-wire Ohms and put the probes together and got a .030 reading. I then realized I didn't know how to zero the meter. So I thought that the Null function might do the trick. I went through this and ended up getting .0000 when the probes were touched together. Then I measured my joint but this time, including 9' of cable and got a between 0.009 and 0.010 Ohms. But I really don't know if the Null function is what I should be doing or if the "Auto Zero" function is already taking care of zeroing the meter. But if so, then why do I get 0.030 when touching the probes together?I tried reading about this in the manual but just can't seem to understand what the below paragraph from the manual is telling me.Step 5: Specify whether you want to use Auto Zero. Autozero provides the most accurate measurements, butrequires additional time to perform the zero measurement. Note that there is no autozero setting for 4-wire resistancemeasurements.With autozero enabled, the DMM internally measures the offset following each measurement. It then subtracts thatmeasurement from the preceding reading. This prevents offset voltages present on the DMM’s input circuitry fromaffecting measurement accuracy. With autozero disabled, the DMM measures the offset once and subtracts the offsetfrom all subsequent measurements. The DMM takes a new offset measurement each time you change the function,range, or integration time.Can someone tell me the proper setup and procedure to take a 2-wire Ohm measurement with this meter? Maybe with and without Auto Zero enabled?

author: Rufus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2014, 08:25:20 pm
content: Quote from: BVH on October 04, 2014, 08:15:31 pmThe auto zero is compensating for errors in the meter internal circuitry, nothing to do with external measurements you are making.2 wire Ohm measurement of a few milliohms is almost pointless. Read up on 4 wire measurements or for a chunky connection like that stick a few amps through it from a bench supply and probe the voltage across it.

author: BVH
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2014, 04:53:48 am
content: Got a set of Agilent 4-wire Kelvin leads and re-measured. .009 Ohms - and this was with almost 10' of the #4 AWG cable in the measurement. Much happier now.

author: HighVoltage
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 26, 2014, 01:06:31 pm
content: Quote from: Rufus on October 04, 2014, 08:25:20 pmI think the auto zero also compensates for any external voltage offset, that might be in the circuit under test.

author: Hesam_a
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: November 19, 2014, 03:28:06 pm
content: Is this unit a good replacement for HP 3457A?Specifically in the case of micro-Amp measurement.I know HP 3457A can measure micron amps at 300.0000 u Amp Dc setting . the resolution at this setting is 100p Amp (6 1/2 digits)Do you know if 34461A has the same capability?

author: robrenz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2014, 03:58:54 pm
content: 34661A has a 100µA range

author: OldNeurons
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2015, 01:26:00 pm
content: I opened my 34461A and found 2 capacitors with the top sides covered with something I believe is kapton tape ...Any idea why they did that ?

author: HighVoltage
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2015, 01:36:54 pm
content: It is the same on the later models of the 34401A DMMsIt is probably done to protect the capacitors from excess heat during the reflow soldering process.

author: slurry
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2015, 02:31:48 pm
content: I copy+paste from another thread i started in my hunt for my perfect benchtop multimeter, i bought the 34461A:I learned that there was a new firmware for 34460a, 34461a, 34465a and 34470a released may 14th,i promptly downloaded it and briefly read the release notes, now we can measureCAPACITORS!!!there is a lot of small fixes and some new functions, the multimeter now boot in 30 seconds instead of 50, great!to Keysight and a big..but please tell me how to activate that particular function because i cant find it..here is a link to the release notes:http://www.keysight.com/upload/cmc_upload/All/Firmware_2.08_Release_Notes.pdfPress shift-freq to activate capacitor measurement,max selectable range is 100µF, i tried a Elna gold 470µF and it worked fine, but 1000µF did not.

author: rosbuitre
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2015, 02:53:03 pm
content: Quote from: slurry on May 26, 2015, 02:31:48 pmHiMeasurement up to 100uFCapacitance 1.0 nF to 100.0 uFRegards

author: VK5RC
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 27, 2015, 09:09:06 am
content: Please see the link by OldNeurons (still firing well I think) re front panel reset, causes resting to incorrect PLC frequency in some countries, another update is coming.https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/34461a-line-frequency-setting-wrong-after-front-panel-reset/msg667528/#msg667528

author: rosbuitre
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2015, 03:26:25 pm
content: New version of BenchVue Software, 2.7 in the keysight siteRegards

author: HighVoltage
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2015, 03:44:27 pm
content: Quote from: rosbuitre on June 03, 2015, 03:26:25 pmThanks for letting us know.As far as I heard, Keysight fixed the bug without any other enhancements.

author: rosbuitre
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 30, 2015, 11:57:09 am
content: HiCan anyone tell me if this Temperature Probe is compatible with my Keysight 34461A ?https://www.openhacks.com/page/productos/id/153/title/Sensor-de-Temperatura-NTC-Impermeabilizado#lightbox[%27galeria%27]/2/RegardsOsvaldo

author: plesa
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 30, 2015, 05:00:55 pm
content: I do not think it is compatible, 34461A has support for 5k thermistor only.34410/34411 has suport for 10k thermistors.Maybe you can ask for adding this thermistor into next FW.

author: rosbuitre
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 30, 2015, 09:08:58 pm
content: Quote from: plesa on September 30, 2015, 05:00:55 pmThank you

author: rosbuitre
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2015, 09:18:23 am
content: New version of BenchVue, 3.0http://www.keysight.com/main/software.jspx?ckey=2417463&lc=eng&cc=US&nid=-536902435.1058513&id=2417463Regards

author: HighVoltage
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2015, 09:05:56 pm
content: Quote from: rosbuitre on October 14, 2015, 09:18:23 amNice findofficially to be released on 10-20-2015

author: TheSteve
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 06, 2016, 04:55:57 am
content: Can anyone with the 34461A tell me if the continuity test has been improved with a software update at all since Dave's review of it? It wasn't terrible in the review but certainly doesn't look to match a Fluke 87V.His test can be seen here:

author: rosbuitre
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2016, 09:09:34 am
content: HiIn my Keysight 34461A, the 2.09 version of FW worsened until it unusable in that function, worse than a DMM of $10, waiting for months an update of FW to correct it.Regards

author: TheSteve
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 06, 2016, 11:05:55 am
content: Well that is a real shame. Keysight get with it!!!

author: HighVoltage
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2016, 11:18:02 am
content: It seems the 34461A is constantly switching between an OHM measurement and beepingThe good thing, the 34470A does not have this problemAnd not all 34461A's show this as badly. But nothing changed for me with the FW 2.09 update

author: TheSteve
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 06, 2016, 11:41:56 am
content: I guess I'll be pondering it a while longer. I really want a good continuity beeper in my bench meter. I'd be selling my 34450A and Keithley 2001 to buy it and wouldn't want to be disappointed.

author: rosbuitre
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2016, 12:02:12 pm
content: The 34461A is excellent, beautiful, pity that these things bother, I have to use my old Tek to measure continuity having the 34461A in my workbenchRegards

author: billfernandez
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 07, 2016, 02:22:17 am
content: ON mine, continuity is detected with no perceptible delay. But the beeper, instead of being on continuously, emits a staccato beeping with variable period. Is that the issue you're talking about?

author: TheSteve
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 07, 2016, 08:10:05 am
content: Wow, so the 34461A doesn't have dual display either?Why is it my lower model 34450A can measure DC and AV volts at the same time, and various other combinations. It also has no fan and boots in 5 seconds. It is slow though in dual mode- especially in auto range. The green OLED display while boring is also amazing to look at.My Keithley 2001 can also measure both and it throws in frequency too - at a reasonable sample rate.Selling both to get a 34461A just doesn't seem logical even though the 34461A is a great looking machine.It is a real shame, I think Keysight needs to throw in a few more features!I guess I will keep looking for the ultimate(for me) bench DMM.

author: HighVoltage
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 07, 2016, 08:23:22 am
content: Quote from: TheSteve on January 07, 2016, 08:10:05 amOf course the 34461A has a dual displayJust push the "Display" button and then the "2nd Meas" softkey.

author: TheSteve
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 07, 2016, 08:37:28 am
content: Quote from: HighVoltage on January 07, 2016, 08:23:22 amIs this something they added in a software update? In Dave's video he specifically says it has no dual display capability.edit - just reading the firmware release notes. It looks like they added "limited secondary measurements" in version 2.08.Can anyone comment on how well it works to measure DC and AC at the same time such as you might want to use when probing a power supply in a piece of gear - does it have a decent update rate?

author: HighVoltage
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 07, 2016, 10:12:08 am
content: Yes, it was a software update, similar to the capacitance measurements, that was also updated with a new FW.The dual display is not very well implemented.For instance, if you measure DC Voltage and want to have the AC voltage as well on the second display it works with a delay, because it is switching a relay constantly between these two measurements.This was much better implemented in the older 34410A and 34411A meters.

author: TiN
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 07, 2016, 10:28:39 am
content: TheSteve just broke my Keithley-heart, trying to xchange warm fuzzy VFD-DMM to that pesky cold evil LCD thingy, called 34461.

author: HighVoltage
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 07, 2016, 11:24:13 am
content: I still have my many 34401A and 34410A meters in use and just like to use them more over the 34461A for most day to day measurement jobs.But probably the best feature of the 34461A, and one that I am using all the time is the trend chart for almost all functions.Even for small changes, the trend chart immediately shows it visually, before we see it in the numbers.

author: TheSteve
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 07, 2016, 05:45:56 pm
content: Quote from: TiN on January 07, 2016, 10:28:39 amAhh, so the TiN man has a Keithley heart - better then no heart at all!I haven't made up my mind yet, shame you can't go somewhere and try these things out.

author: Dr. Frank
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 07, 2016, 06:44:13 pm
content: Quote from: TheSteve on January 07, 2016, 05:45:56 pmShame on YOU, that you don't have a volt-nuts community in Canada?!

author: sotos
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 08, 2016, 08:36:15 am
content: Quote from: billfernandez on January 07, 2016, 02:22:17 amYou mean something like this.

author: rosbuitre
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 08, 2016, 09:03:26 am
content: New version of firmwarehttp://www.keysight.com/main/software.jspx?ckey=2367633&lc=eng&cc=US&nid=-536902435.1058513&id=2367633Regards

author: sotos
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 08, 2016, 11:13:44 am
content: Quote from: rosbuitre on January 08, 2016, 09:03:26 amThere’s nothing in the release notes mentioning the beeper problem fixed.

author: neslekkim
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 08, 2016, 03:49:24 pm
content: And it's released 11th january?, here in Norway it's still the 8th..

author: sotos
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 08, 2016, 09:53:49 pm
content: Quote from: neslekkim on January 08, 2016, 03:49:24 pmHere too

author: billfernandez
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2016, 04:24:35 am
content: Quote from: sotos on January 08, 2016, 08:36:15 amYes, like that. I find it disturbing, since I associate the cessation of the beep with a loss of continuity, which I have often found to be very useful. This is just annoying, and makes me distrust the continuity sensing.

author: HighVoltage
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2016, 09:25:08 am
content: Just don't use the 34461A for continuity measurements.The good news: The 34470A does not have this problem.The possible bad news: This could be hardware related and can not be fixed through FW updates.

author: sotos
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2016, 01:10:31 pm
content: With Firmware, AGILENT V 1.10 its working fine, so I don’t think it’s a hardware problem. It gets messed up with Keysight updates.

author: rsivan
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2016, 08:15:45 pm
content: Mine too have annoing beeper ,I did buy when still branded Agilent ,and with 1.10 Firmware was ok = "linear beep" not like now,this incredibile ,someone crazy like us making continuity test with professional bench dmm,just ordered Fluke 101 for 55€ shipped on ebay.de, and use for continuity test... very tiny and stay in a pocket.

author: TheSteve
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 26, 2016, 06:54:38 am
content: Has anyone had a go at finding the username/password for the 34461A telnet connection on port 5810?Welcome to the Windows CE Telnet Service on K-34461A-14101login:edit: anyone have a link to download firmware 1.xx for the 34461A?

author: 6thimage
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 26, 2016, 01:06:02 pm
content: I have the 1.09, 1.10, 2.08 and 2.09 firmware files (NK.bin and build.xml - what the meter expects to find on the flash drive), but not the original update files. I'm not sure if you can get the old versions from the website (if so they will be on the firmware page), as I can't seem to get onto Keysight's website at the moment (503 errors).I believe the username is 'Torreys', but I don't know of the password.

author: plesa
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 26, 2016, 09:58:29 pm
content: 1.10 and 1.09http://www.filedropper.com/agt3446xareva0110http://www.filedropper.com/agt3446xareva0109

author: TheSteve
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 27, 2016, 09:36:03 am
content: Awesome, thanks guys!

author: billfernandez
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 27, 2016, 10:24:51 am
content: Quote from: HighVoltage on January 09, 2016, 09:25:08 amYes of course. Instead of using my new, $1,000 meter that's right there on the bench, the one that's capable of so many modern features executed with precision, I can drag out my old 1983-era Fluke 8060A DMM, which has awesome continuity response, to provide this most pedestrian of functions. Or wait, don't I still have a beeper lying around from my high school days...?

author: sotos
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 27, 2016, 12:54:41 pm
content: Quote from: billfernandez on January 27, 2016, 10:24:51 amYou said it right.

author: OldNeurons
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 27, 2016, 04:50:25 pm
content: Quote from: plesa on January 26, 2016, 09:58:29 pmThanks for the files Plesa.I downgraded my 34461A to v1.10 and confirm that continuity measurement works fine with this firmware.So, for sure, this should not be a big deal for Keysight to fix that issue.Does anyone here already reported to Keysight?

author: sotos
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 27, 2016, 05:14:36 pm
content: Quote from: OldNeurons on January 27, 2016, 04:50:25 pmIf they monitor their site it’s here. I wrote about it and the link with the problem at YouTubehttp://www.keysight.com/owc_discussions/thread.jspa?threadID=40301&tstart=0

author: TheSteve
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 27, 2016, 05:36:09 pm
content: Yes, everyone who cares should reply in the thread on the Keysight forum. I will also be opened a case with Keysight directly, they need to put their big boy pants on and fix the problem.

author: sotos
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 27, 2016, 05:58:40 pm
content: Quote from: TheSteve on January 27, 2016, 05:36:09 pm

author: TheSteve
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 17, 2016, 10:59:21 pm
content: As posted by user "jdwindrvr" on the Keysight support forum today:The "stutter" in the beep that signals continuity has been resolved. The firmware (with the fix) is going through our regression and production tests.Assuming no unexpected issues will be found, the next release should be available in approximately four weeks.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2016, 11:26:03 pm
content: Any other serious bugs they fixed? IMHO the continuity stutter is more like a cosmetic issue since the continuity beep on the 34461A is rather slow anyway.

author: Dr. Frank
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2016, 08:00:48 am
content: Firmware 2.14 has been released today.This also should fix the continuity tone problem.Please check that out.Frank

author: LA7SJA
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2016, 08:40:06 am
content: The "stutter" in the beep that signals continuity hasNOTbeen resolved on my 34461A @ 2.14It still has a periodic "shirp" sounds but it is much better sounding than with the 2.11 version. When/if I get over the disappointment I will try to make an recording of the instrument and scope trace of the audio.Johan-Fredrik

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2016, 10:26:20 am
content: Any other improvements?

author: 6thimage
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2016, 12:34:00 pm
content: The release notes are athttp://www.keysight.com/upload/cmc_upload/All/Firmware_2.14_Release_Notes.pdf, but the listed changes for 2.14 areQuote

author: KE5FX
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2016, 10:16:32 pm
content: Quote from: LA7SJA on May 05, 2016, 08:40:06 amIt's not perfect but I'd say it's "good enough" for most purposes now. To me it sounds like it did with its original firmware, before the problem occurred.They seem to be driving the piezo transducer with pulses generated by a microcontroller that has a lot of interrupt activity to deal with. Given that, it won't ever be a perfectly clean tone, but it's much better than it was.

author: TheSteve
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 06, 2016, 03:30:15 am
content: Firmware update done. I don't mind the action of the beeper at all, it is a million times better then it was. In fact it seems more responsive and reliable.Is it just me or are they running the fan faster by default now?

author: LA7SJA
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2016, 04:12:19 am
content: QuoteTry to program a highspeed CW tone generator in Windows without the MultiMedia system. The sound is a high frequency switching type noise and I should try to stop it with a lowpass filter.@VE7FMI disagree with you, the new firmware is only 103better not 106.Johan-Fredrik

author: ytterligare
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2016, 10:08:58 pm
content: Did the update 10 minutes ago...compared to my Fluke 289 the result is rather embarassing, no kidding.

author: ytterligare
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2016, 10:38:15 pm
content: Ok, please forgive the shitty video quality...did throw a couple of quick&dirty test on both DMM ( better seen in full screen )Keysight 34461a fw 2.14:Fluke 289 :A.

author: D3f1ant
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 07, 2016, 12:29:08 am
content: When I'm probing circuits for continuity I pretty much never just stab away at it randomly so don't care/notice how instantly it responds. The intermittent beeper was annoying, but it works fine now. Everybody uses stuff differently I guess.

author: bson
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 07, 2016, 02:49:28 am
content: That could just be a little contact resistance on the Keysight probes combined with a slightly higher threshold resistance for the continuity beep. Keysight DMM probes aren't the best. Try it with the Fluke probes also.

author: ytterligare
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 07, 2016, 12:13:36 pm
content: Quote from: bson on May 07, 2016, 02:49:28 amYou're probably right : here are the test with switched probes, and while the Fluke didn't particularly suffer by using KS' ones, the Keysight is really much better now with Fluke's ( apart from a "cold start" )....I was wondering during the developement of the fw, which probes did KS engineers used for that task.Keysight with Fluke probes :Fluke with Keysight probes :Anyway, and this can't be seen on the videos, I clearly felt a kind of latency while testing KS Continuity...it's like it is buffering the response before giving back the result, and this might be consistent with what KE5FX was supposing : "They seem to be driving the piezo transducer with pulses generated by a microcontroller that has a lot of interrupt activity to deal with."That latency is amost negligible in the Fluke.A.

author: Svuppe
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 08, 2016, 10:30:51 am
content: How do you even download the new firmware?I can find it on keysight.com, but it asks me to login before downloading. No problem, I have an account..... But no. Once I enter my login details, I just end up in an endless redirection loop. And that happens all over keysight.com, so I can't even see their front page anymore. Same result with IE11, Chrome and from my android tablet.

author: D3f1ant
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2016, 05:44:38 am
content: Try herehttp://www.keysight.com/main/software.jspx?ckey=2367633Although I am logged in

author: Svuppe
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2016, 08:03:46 am
content: Finally managed to download it by using the "Firmware Update 2.14 for Non-Windows Operating Systems" link (and after clearing cookies to be able to see keysight.com again). The "non-windows" link does not need any login or other details before downloading.

author: SupraWez
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: June 04, 2016, 08:17:09 am
content: Hello All,I have a 34461A and never done a FW upgrade on it, its currently running 1.10 if I read it correctly.Is it worth me upgrading and would the unit require re-calibration after the update?Thanks

author: LA7SJA
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2016, 08:43:09 am
content: First watch/listen to the videos from user ytterligare and compare with your meter to see if the continuity sound on the new firmware is good enough.Then read the combined release noteshttp://www.keysight.com/upload/cmc_upload/All/Firmware_2.14_Release_Notes.pdfand decide if you want to update or not.No re-calibration should be required after the firmware upgrade.Johan-Fredrik

author: Dr. Frank
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2016, 08:45:49 am
content: Quote from: SupraWez on June 04, 2016, 08:17:09 amFW updates do not harm the calibration at all! No re-calibration required, of course not.There's a long list of bugs being fixed, see release notes 2.14.Especially the beeper problem on 34460/461A instruments annoyed many users.This update also enables Capacitance measurement.So, an update is highly recommended.Frank

author: TheSteve
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 28, 2017, 06:55:59 am
content: Just noticed this manual addendum for the 34460A/34461A/34465A/34470A series, it was released a few days ago.http://literature.cdn.keysight.com/litweb/pdf/34460-90902.pdf?id=2848666The maximum allowable measured voltage has been updated to:DC 600 volts (was 1000)AC 440 volts (was 750)

author: HighVoltage
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2017, 07:38:42 am
content: Quote from: TheSteve on March 28, 2017, 06:55:59 amThat sounds more like an April fools jokeWhat happened to the compatibility to the 34401A?Hmm, Keysight must have found some weak spots and instead of changing the parts they are changing the datasheetUnreal!

author: 0xfede
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2017, 07:45:30 am
content: Thanks TheSteve for pointing out that. I'm wondering why I still haven't received that notice too (I own a 34465).If this is true that's a major limitation for an instrument advertised for 1000VDC and 750VAC. These values are printed on the front panel too.I'm very disappointed.Best,0xfede

author: Dr. Frank
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2017, 08:01:00 am
content: Obviously, that's not a joke.The changed specification is also present prominently on the KS product site, and our German distributor DataTec already has an updated full data sheet with the reduced max. voltages.Keysight does not have that updated, full datasheet, yet. There's the addendum only. Very strange.Did some safety standards (norms) change recently, or did they really find a weakness for the input circuitry?Anyhow, it's not ok, that owners were not informed directly.Frank

author: Alex Nikitin
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2017, 08:10:59 am
content: From the notice:QuoteThere should be a very good reason to issue an update like this. Most likely they have some actual failures in the field with multimeters working at high voltages for a prolonged time.CheersAlex

author: 0xfede
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2017, 08:37:52 am
content: The document clearly say damage so it must be an hardware problem, not safety.Yet still cannot figure out how this is supposed to be my problem when it is their fault.And I'm wondering how the other fellow on the forum reacts if a lower end brand (Rigol, Siglent and so on) do the same.This is not HP/Agilent/Keysight.And of course this is not professional, at all.

author: Alex Nikitin
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2017, 09:47:51 am
content: As this issue affects not just the 34461A and has some far-reaching implications, I've started aseparate thread.CheersAlex

author: carl_lab
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2017, 05:16:41 pm
content: [moved my post to "correct" thread:]https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/keysight-34460a34461a34465a34470a-maximum-allowable-voltage-change-notice/msg1174480/#msg1174480

author: HighVoltage
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2017, 08:01:48 pm
content: Quote from: carl_lab on March 30, 2017, 05:16:41 pmSeriously, there is no real alternative for those who measure close to 1000 V DCEspecially, as you said, this is a plug in replacement for the older models, which are no longer in production.What about all those people who have software written for these instruments, you can not just switch to another brand.And even if you wanted to do that, what do you get that has the features of the 34461A?

author: Keysight Technologies Rep
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2017, 04:52:59 pm
content: Thanks to those on this EEV blog thread for the dialog about a standards compliance issue with Keysight Technologies’ 3446XA and 34470A digital multimeters. Your conversation reinforces Keysight’s commitment to address this issue to the satisfaction of our customers. We apologize if this has inconvenienced any of our customers, and acknowledge that this response is coming later than some would have hoped.What we have determinedWhile the product was initially rated at a maximum input value of 1000VDC/750VAC, this has been reduced to 600 VDC/440VAC to allow a component to operate within its rated values. There is no change in the Measurement Category II rating of 300V. The change in the maximum rated input voltage is to ensure the product meets requirements of the IEC61010 standards. Most importantly, there are no safety concerns related to this change.Failure risk very low, no safety riskThe products maintain their performance accuracy, and no failures have been observed up to 1000VDC. While there is the possibility of component failure in using the products above 600 VDC/440VAC, there are no safety risks. Further, there have been no known component-related reliability failures since shipment of these products started in 2013.Confidence in product reliabilityThese products continue to be covered by Keysight’s three-year standard warranty, and effective immediately, we will provide an additional one-year warranty extension to ensure customers can depend on our products.Next stepsKeysight has begun redesigning the 3446XA and 34470A digital multimeters to reinstate the original maximum input ratings of 1000VDC/750VAC. We have set a goal to ship the redesigned products by December of 2017, and will make every effort to begin shipment sooner than that.For more information about the steps Keysight is taking to address this issue, we have posted a service note on the company’s website. To view the service note, navigate to Keysight’s website,https://servicenotes.literature.keysight.com/litapp/SearchSN.do?method=openExternalSNSearch&prodNum=and type in product number 34461A-04. Any customers who require 1000VDC/750VAC testing capabilities can contact a Keysight Customer Contact Center and reference the service note number.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2018, 11:53:08 pm
content: I just received an e-mail about this service note:literature.cdn.keysight.com/litweb/pdf/34461A-06.pdfIt says 34461A with serial numbers: MY53220037 – MY57210852 may have excessive drift.

author: TheSteve
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 02, 2018, 01:14:45 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on July 01, 2018, 11:53:08 pmChecked mine the other day, still good on DCV to the last count.

author: Andrew
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2018, 09:41:47 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on July 01, 2018, 11:53:08 pmHaving not checked in a while, I notice there is also service note 34461A-05 "Keysight 34460A/34461A/34465A/34470A Digital Multimeter with firmware version below “FW 2.17” may experience ACV out of specification.This appears to be relatively easy to check without opening the unit but does require a service centre repair to fix.As to service note 34461A-06 "Units may exhibit an accelerated DCV drift rate which exceeds the 90-days or 1-year product specification within 2 weeks of usage.", as there is no mention of units with more than one year of service, I'm guessing a calibration would be required and any fault found repaired at cost rather than a replacement unit as per the service note?34461A Service notes:https://servicenotes.literature.keysight.com/litapp/SearchSN.do?method=openExternalSNSearch&prodNum=34461ACheersAndrew

author: HighVoltage
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2018, 10:57:01 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on July 01, 2018, 11:53:08 pmI have three of the 34461A and they are all good.I am actually very happy with the 34461A, even after a few years in service, they are very stable and reliable.

author: Andrew
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2018, 02:49:34 pm
content: Prior to running some checks for the two most recent service notes, I checked the "Help"/ "About" screen for the latest firmware version (2.17) and noticed an extra option under SEC as:AVG - Enable AC average measurements - not installedMust have missed that...nothing in the release notes or on any of the website pages for 3446xA options....and yes the 34461A is a great dmm and the only problem with owning "one" is the missing "second one" or...

author: Messtechniker
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2018, 04:20:47 pm
content: Quote from: Andrew on August 08, 2018, 02:49:34 pmAlso applies to the 34465A. Just checked.

author: HighVoltage
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2018, 06:49:50 pm
content: The AVG update has been showing up since one of the last firmware updates.Interestingly, it is not even listed in the latest brochure on the Keysight website

author: JonM
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 10, 2018, 04:05:19 am
content: I believe that AVG is a special option to meet some US Government requirement and is not generally available. This was mentioned in another thread, a while ago.

author: Andrew
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2018, 09:17:20 am
content: New firmware release v3.0 for 3446xA/34470ARelease notes:https://www.keysight.com/main/software.jspx?ckey=2367633&lc=eng&cc=US&nid=-11143.0.00Of interest to me is: "Adds 2-wire and 4-wire support for 2.25 kΩ and 10 kΩ thermistors in addition to 5 kΩ thermistors."... and probably of more interest to 34465A/70A owners: "Beginning with Firmware revision 3.0, the digitizing and advanced triggering option (34465A-DIG/34470A-DIG/3446DIGU), is now standard" - time to upgrade?

author: ppeterl
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2018, 09:54:58 am
content: Well just a note - the download for non-windows ("Firmware Update for Non-Windows Operating Systems") still links to the old version 2.17. So need launch the VM again... was a couple a years ago, so update bonanza - here we go!Don't you just hate it when they still require Windows? 2018?

author: HighVoltage
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2018, 09:58:35 am
content: Quote from: Andrew on December 11, 2018, 09:17:20 amThanks for letting us know about the new FW.I have been waiting for this thermistor range update for a long time.Especially since the 34410A had these options already.QuoteToo bad, I bought the options for my instruments already.I did not see this one coming.Nice of Keysight to include them now. Probaly because they are standard in the Keithley meters.

author: TheSteve
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 14, 2018, 01:52:08 am
content: Playing with the html5 remote interface. Can't help but notice the image they used for the 34461A is an older rev without capacitance marked on the front panel.