Keysight Discontinuance Announcement - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 13, 2015, 06:15:42 am
content: Just got this email:Quote

author: daqq
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2015, 07:02:53 am
content: Well, they had a good life - to be honest I'm amazed they kept making them for so long - three decades old core design? Don't get me wrong - they are good machines, but I'm guessing that you can get more bang for just as much buck, or just as much bang for less buck - both as far as the manufacturer and customer are concerned.

author: nadona
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2015, 07:18:32 am
content: Thanks for the info.So they will continue with the 3458A and 34420A.

author: HighVoltage
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2015, 07:23:36 am
content: Interesting that they will stop the production of the 34410A and 34411A, which are a much newer design.

author: nowlan
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2015, 07:54:44 am
content: 34401 = $147134461A = $1298who would buy the 34401 ?

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2015, 08:01:58 am
content: Quote from: nowlan on July 13, 2015, 07:54:44 amPeople who have contracts, manuals, training courses, etc.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2015, 08:10:34 am
content: Quote from: nowlan on July 13, 2015, 07:54:44 amSome company who doesn't like the Teletubby GUI look and only need DVM in a rack application?

author: daqq
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2015, 08:35:28 am
content: QuoteIt's better than the old Rube Goldberg menu interface with several layers of menus that are a definition of a mess. I like the new GUIs, and if they are used in a rack then who cares what GUI they use. It's pretty, it's clean and easily accessible.

author: Rupunzell
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2015, 03:44:58 pm
content: Reflection of current market demand and their need for profitability.Their replacements will be lower in overall build quality, less customer repairable-servicable, more disposable but will better meet the needs of computer driven needs.Discontinuation of DSA's are another reflection of market demands and how this group of instruments is no longer considered a significant market need. Much like the hp 3577A, 3562A, 3326A and others there is no current direct replacement.Bernice

author: plesa
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2015, 04:03:44 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on July 13, 2015, 06:15:42 amI'm curious if there is connection with RoHS. e.g 34420A and also the 3458A does not have alternative for Europe after 22 July 2017. Which also means that these meter will be not CE compilant.This can be limiting factor for some deals with big companies outside EU. So we will see....

author: ElectroIrradiator
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2015, 04:24:04 pm
content: Quote from: plesa on July 13, 2015, 04:03:44 pmTE is not considered consumer electronics, so I'd expect them to be exempt from meeting the RoHS directive, along with some forms of medical, military and aerospace equipment/components?

author: dadler
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 13, 2015, 05:08:02 pm
content: Hmm, most if not all of these products have been listed on the Keysight website as "discontinued as of Dec 2016" for at least the past few months.

author: plesa
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2015, 05:51:30 pm
content: Quote from: ElectroIrradiator on July 13, 2015, 04:24:04 pmI suppose that statement on website is clear enough:Notice for European Union Customers: This productis not updated to EU RoHS compliance, therefore Keysight will only continue to sell this product to EU member states until 31 December 2016. Please contact your local sales representative for questions and recommended alternative product(s).

author: LabSpokane
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2015, 06:19:54 pm
content: Quote from: Rupunzell on July 13, 2015, 03:44:58 pmOK, if that's so, why were they able to triple the warranty from 1 to 3 years? I've had the 34401 and the 34461 and the latter is much much better as a day to day unit. I will not miss the VFD era at all. Just like I don't miss the low-contrast LCD era. Just like I don't miss having to screw around linking a PC to my meter and hacking Excel macros just to see a trend chart.The less service-able issue I will agree is a real issue and is primarily due to the severe restrictions Keysight is placing on service documentation and spare parts. Just about everything is "return to factory" now. I'm not thrilled with that, but I also don't have to balance the books while satisfying investors. So this all may be "necessary evil" for them.I don't like everything that's happened at AgilSight. I especially didn't enjoy watching our local campus getting shut down and seeing friends lose their jobs. But, I will also give them credit where it's due. I like the new product by and large.And lastly, in Keysight's defense, keeping legacy equipment in production is a nightmare. After ten years, so many parts are going obsolete that it becomes a massive resource drain just to find replacements and/or make product changes to maintain production. The people assigned to supporting that legacy equipment probably have been hating life for the last three years. You're buying stupid quantities of stuff on last buys to the wrath of management, or worse, buying mystery meat from brokers. I doubt many Keysight insiders will miss that aspect of it.

author: John Coloccia
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2015, 06:57:16 pm
content: The nice thing about companies like Keysight is they realize products like this are built into various setups, and they keep stuff stable for long enough and give enough warning that it doesn't send everyone into a panic. Obviously they needed to kill them off at some point. Glad they're not leaving everyone in a panic situation...I wouldn't really expect any less from them. I've been caught in situations where a vendor just discontinues an item and we're left high and dry without a replacement. Definitely one of the advantages to working with companies like this.

author: JoeB83
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2015, 06:58:38 pm
content: Quote from: HighVoltage on July 13, 2015, 07:23:36 amAgreed. I just bought my 34410A the beginning of this year.

author: sacherjj
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2015, 07:01:20 pm
content: I opened this thread half expecting to read that Keysight was discontinuing the name for something else. Again.

author: rx8pilot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2015, 07:05:58 pm
content: Onward and upward.....Almost ALL commercial electronics are becoming non serviceable. The advances in feature sets and designs along with the pressure/challenge to be profitable make it easy to understand this trend. Almost my entire bench is made from repaired eBay TE and that has allowed my small business to get a solid start in electronics without any financing. That opportunity will diminish over time I guess, based on the 'disposable' concepts in the newer gear.For me, the overall gain in performance, usability, features, etc is worth the trade-off for most of the usual professional equipment. For scopes, the trend is to combine traditionally separate pieces into one integrated box. Analog, LA, ARB, etc...not to mention the advanced analytics that previously required a GPIB network and external software. How often do these boxes break and need service? Not very often.If hard-to-service is the price to pay for awesome new features - I will pay it.

author: ElectroIrradiator
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2015, 07:16:21 pm
content: Quote from: plesa on July 13, 2015, 05:51:30 pmYou are right, I managed to miss that part.Strange though, as I was of the impression the RoHS issue wasn't one for T&M gear.Also I notice the E36xx series of VFD equipped PSUs soldier on. Will they still be made past the 25 year mark since introduction...?

author: HighVoltage
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2015, 08:24:52 pm
content: Quote from: JoeB83 on July 13, 2015, 06:58:38 pmI don't really see myself replacing my 34410A with a 34465A anytime soon.And having the 34410A integrated in to BenchVue is a huge step forward for me.The same is true for all my 34401A DMMs, they all have their special place in my lab.I do have 10 of them, the oldest one from the early 90's and the newest one from 2014 with a Keysight logo on it.They are so reliable for every day use in a small production environment, no need to replace them.But for other uses I love the 34461A and its graphing display, I would not give it up any more.The trend chart feature of the new generation meters is just fantastic, just to name one.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2015, 08:28:21 pm
content: end of stock for parts ... probably the main cause. the asics in those machines are made in very old processes that simply aren't around anymore.Anyway, onward to the future.As for the 3485 no being not RoHs compliant : who gives a hoot. If it can no longer be imported in europe for that reason then stupid europe can go back to 3 1/2 digits for all i care. Serve's em well.

author: bitwelder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2015, 08:29:57 pm
content: Quote from: sacherjj on July 13, 2015, 07:01:20 pmOh good, I thought I was the only one with that hope while reading the thread name.

author: HighVoltage
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2015, 08:35:05 pm
content: Quote from: free_electron on July 13, 2015, 08:28:21 pmThis will probably increase the price for the 3458A significantly after 2016May be time to get one before.

author: plesa
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2015, 08:40:29 pm
content: Quote from: free_electron on July 13, 2015, 08:28:21 pmI suppose that they can still sell non RoHS equipment through Remarketing program, second hand market will be not affected ;-)

author: ElectroIrradiator
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2015, 09:16:27 pm
content: Quote from: free_electron on July 13, 2015, 08:28:21 pmI have now been reliably informed, that the EU RoHS exemption for T&M gear expires on ... December 31th 2016.This was despite serious lobbying effort by the usual suspects in this sector (Agilent/Keysight, Tek, NI, Anritsu...) to try and explain the possible outcome to the relevant EU bodies.Have a feeling this will be amended in due time, once certain key pieces of gear are no longer available. Just like the ban on Cadmium was partially amended for some particular types of electronic components.

author: eas
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2015, 09:21:01 pm
content: Quote from: rx8pilot on July 13, 2015, 07:05:58 pmA lament at least as old as the integrated circuit...QuoteWhat disposable concepts are you talking about? If you are talking about the equivalent of razor blades and inkjet cartridges, or subscription/service-tied offerings, then yes, that will diminish the opportunity to assemble a useful bench out of older gear. To what extent is any of that happening? Is there a hidden requirement of consumable volt, amp, and ohm cartridges for the 34461A that I'm missing? Perhaps it requires more frequent calibration, but basic accuracy is the same.QuoteWhich doesn't seem to represent a significant break with the past. These newer boxes may be less serviceable, but chances are, need less service (such is the way of integration). Meanwhile tomorrow's instruments will have to find other ways to get people to upgrade, and when they do, their older instruments will be on the market, and most will probably work without repair. If there is a significant discontinuity in this trend, then the most likely result is that new instruments will get cheaper (witness the lower end DSO market), enough so that older instruments aren't as attractive unless their priced on the used market declines.So, I think you can have your cake and eat it too.

author: Lukas
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2015, 09:26:28 pm
content: What's the oldest (electronic) instrument still sold by Keysight?Good candidates:3458A, introduced 1989537A (although not electronic) 'Frequency Meter', I've found a manual dating back to 1972. Why would anyone still buy this thing? Military customer?

author: dadler
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 13, 2015, 09:38:54 pm
content: I will miss the equipment that starts up immediately.My 53132a boots almost instantly, a few seconds at most.Windows CE on my 34465a takes like 30 seconds to boot.Maybe someday they will make equipment start up fast again

author: Macbeth
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2015, 10:55:25 pm
content: I wonder how this will play out? 3458A's must be the holy grail for volt nuts. The price may sky rocket in Europe as they are only available on the black market via local coke and hookers dealer obtaining them from the drugs and people smugglers shipping them through our porous borders?-OR- As this is down to RoHS, all the scientists at CERN, Unis, Research Labs, etc will have a diktat from Elf'n'Safety and Human Remains departments to get rid of this dangerous to staff & poisonous to the environment gear - So it will have to be disposed of in landfill, complete with hazardous waste disposal costs and EU pollution levies for using landfill to go towards the commission gravy train.Of course, the kind of people who deal in hazardous waste (like the Camorra in Naples, and the "travelling" communities over here in UK) - most won't end up in landfill and there will be a flood of this gear on the market. No "big" businesses will buy it and the prices will tank.There must be thousands of perfectly new old stock equipment like this languishing in stock rooms of ivory towers, once justified as useful expensive stuff to pad the budgets with in order not to get them cut the next year, then ending up being used as an accounting entry on the fixed assets schedule.Hmm... I am optimistic and look forward to joining Martin Lorton amd becoming a curator of a pristine example of this fine instrument for a few hundred euro!

author: lowimpedance
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2015, 01:48:05 am
content: Quote from: Macbeth on July 13, 2015, 10:55:25 pmHmm - A rather familiar sounding 'ding' of the bell !!

author: Electro Fan
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2015, 03:22:53 am
content: Quote from: Lukas on July 13, 2015, 09:26:28 pmMight not be a lot of present day users but kinda cool.Looks like a pre-digital or possibly an early transitional piece from back when a frequency meter was a frequency meter

author: ElectroIrradiator
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2015, 08:21:48 am
content: Quote from: Macbeth on July 13, 2015, 10:55:25 pmWhat will happen is likely to be the same scenario as has already played out numerous times already:*) EU bureaucracy mandates no more substance X is to be used in electronics equipment by date Y.*) Corporations either adopt their products before Y, or, if physically impossible/ridiculously ineconomical/no substitute/unsafe not to use X, they don't.*) Date Y comes and corporations stop selling equipment containing X in the EU.*) People wake up on date Y+1 and suddenly realize no more 8 1/2 digit DMMs for you because no more low EMF solder (or whatever).*) People starts calling Bruxelles and tell them choice words until an amendment is added to the (long) list of RoHS exemptions.*) Shortly after the 8 1/2 digit DMM comes back on the market in the EU.So don't get your hopes for an inexpensive 3458A up just yet...

author: daqq
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2015, 08:33:00 am
content: QuoteI can already see the shady character outside of my local electronics store, in a black duster:"Pssst, hey, you, wanna buy some 8.5 digit precision multimeters? I also got some lead solder... the good stuff!"

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2015, 09:54:13 am
content: Hah, I remember using these frequency meters at the university; they are in fact microwave resonant cavities. It has internally a big threaded screw tied to its top dial and the frequency scale shown in the picture. Twisting the top dial changes the height of the cavity, thus changing the resonant frequency. The outer scale also turns, showing the frequency.The microwave signal enters on the waveguide on one side of the chamber and a power meter is connected to the other waveguide. Thus the effect the resonant cavity applies to the incoming signal can be measured.It is a pure mechanical device, but very effective. Otherwise, how to mesure such high frequencies without spending a fortune?

author: Jwalling
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 14, 2015, 10:27:53 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on July 13, 2015, 08:01:58 amPeople who want to do their own service when something goes wrong. There's no schematics for the 34461A.

author: Deathwish
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 14, 2015, 10:30:36 am
content: Quote from: daqq on July 14, 2015, 08:33:00 amGoing to look kind of weird with a wrist full of those

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2015, 07:44:52 am
content: Quote from: Macbeth on July 13, 2015, 10:55:25 pmI really doubt that the RoHS is taking into account the service life of instruments. A 3458A's lifetime is easily 25 years, I w=can totally see serial number 1 still working somewhere. I can only point at the stupid bureaucrats. I'll take a dead lead acid battery to the recycling plant, that has as much lead as like the units sold over ten years, we call it even.Like there are EU countries putting tax on solar panel, because it contains not environment friendly materials.

author: nfmax
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2015, 08:27:47 am
content: I've just noticed that all the low-end, four-channel DSO10x4A oscilloscopes (the ones made for Keysight by Rigol) are also down to be discontinued for RoHS reasons. The two-channel variants in both the A & B series are not affected. I wonder what the difference might be?

author: Noise Floor
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 21, 2015, 03:11:32 am
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on July 14, 2015, 09:25:53 amThat and it makes it easier to source your parts if everyone is playing to the same standard.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 21, 2015, 03:50:45 am
content: Quote from: LabSpokane on July 13, 2015, 06:19:54 pmThere is a very weak relationship between practical product lifetime and a realistic warranty period. Those tank like instruments from the 70s, still going today, mostly had a 90 day warranty. Most will have been repaired numerous times during their lives, including during that initial 90 days warranty period. These days its easy to make something much more reliable than those old machines, and to make it at low cost. Only a poorly designed product will incur many failures during the first few years. However, things are now generally made of materials that just won't last. After a few years of solid operation some key plastic parts, and perhaps the entire plastic case, will become brittle and disintegrate. Many products are now barely out of warranty before the plastics start to degrade.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 21, 2015, 04:11:05 am
content: Quote from: Macbeth on July 13, 2015, 10:55:25 pmPWAHAHA.. I just had this 'vision; some dude in a dark back alley wearing a long trenchcoat and going. psst , hey , wanna buy some lead solder ?

author: LabSpokane
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 21, 2015, 10:47:12 am
content: Quote from: coppice on July 21, 2015, 03:50:45 amThe plastics on everything I've seen are as good or better than the 70s vintage. I haven't pulled anything apart, but it all appears to be the standard, thick wall, bullet proof, PC/ABS engineering blend we all know and love. I'll check the material stamp tomorrow to be sure.The only weak link is with the elastomer keypads, but those are cheap and easily replaceable as compared to mechanical switches. They will also operate for as many or more cycles than a mechanical switch. The one gripe I have is that I now have to send the unit back to Keysight to do something as trivial as swap out an elastomer. But I would only expect an elastomer to be damaged as part of heavy use/abuse on a manufacturing floor.Now with that criticism aside, elastomer keypads provide a lot of benefit in the form of sealing off the front of the unit.If there's one era of plastics I would NOT want it's the 70s. That was back in the days of no UV stabilizers and weird science fire retardants. Good riddance Noryl! That stuff was nasty!And if your plastics are getting brittle, take a hard look at what they're coming into contact with. Ammonia-based cleaners are instant death to polycarbonate. It's a chemical reaction, it's not that the manufacturer is cheating you.The only thing that I know of where HP/Agilent/Keysight deliberately cut quality in their plastics was in two shot keytops where the legends were molded into the keytop. They were hardly alone in this as virtually *everyone* got away from that because of the expense and huge maintenance costs associated with the molding process and tooling. If you compare an old HP calculator with a new one, you'll be able to see the two different color plastics and the mold lines on the two shot versus the new, which are usually pad printed.

author: engiadina
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 21, 2015, 09:51:44 pm
content: QuoteWell, try to get some Cadmium solder for low thermal connections ... I only know sources like "pssst, have some down in my cellar, wanna see?"And I don't know anyone being serious in the metrology business NOT having some secret stock of cadmium solder to solve the difficult ones ...

author: LabSpokane
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2015, 04:10:31 am
content: OK, so here it is, the manufacturer's marking from the lid to my MSOX2024 scope. And guess what? It's a PC+ABS blend - just like HP has used for decades. Wall thickness is approximately 0.120" or 3mm - which is same, ultra beefy specification to which HP/Agilent/Keysight has *ALWAYS* molded their T&M plastics to (to my knowledge and familiarity). The tooling has a hot nozzle with a shutoff which gives a nice clean gate, and the lifters that form the lid snaps that hold it onto the scope are extremely high quality . There's not a speck of flash or mismatch anywhere. We're talking about a silly $50 lid that they likely don't sell many of, and Keysight is molding it on theirown toolingwithhigh quality engineering resinto a thickness that will not crack short of hammering it or shooting it and the actual molding quality itself looks first class. Yes, the molding is done in Malaysia, but it is first quality by anyone's measure.To summarize, Keysight, as of right now, today, sells its bottom of the line T&M gear with top of the line plastics. I'm certain that this is representative of their product line.The sky is not falling. The bean counters lost. The customer won. If you were happy before with HP's plastics quality, you will be happy again.