Hacko 888D Handle Free Play Between Ceramic Heating Element to Tip? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / projects

author: SuzyC
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2015, 06:58:18 pm
content: I bought on ebay a Hakko 888D handle model number 8101, just arrived by mail from China, but I only bought the handle itself, and the low price I got it for on ebay..it seemed like a bargain.When I unscrew the tip, I can see a slender white cylinder which is the heating element and the topmost inch or two slides into the tip to be used. But I notice a lot of slop, there seems to be a loose fit of the element into the top of the tip. Maybe a millimeter difference of diameters, but easy enough to feel by just moving the pieces around.If this is a fake, then this would be normal.But PLEASE tell me, you Hakko handlers, can you tell me how much free play do you notice in your tip to element..tight fit or not?I've heard rumors that air is a good insulator.I've also heard that things expand with heat, would it be that the ceramic element expands at soldering temperature to snugly fit into the inner diam. of the tip?

author: devanno
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2015, 07:06:59 pm
content: My Hakko 888s are a snug fit.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 31, 2015, 07:10:21 pm
content: There is noticeable gap because it is fake. If you buy genuine tip, likely there would bee less gap.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2015, 07:12:56 pm
content: It's a very snug fit. A sliver of paper 1/8 inch wide willjustfit inside the gap between the sleeve and the heating element.

author: SuzyC
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2015, 07:16:11 pm
content: Thanks devanno for your quick reply, now if you say it is a tight fit for you to slip it in, there are two possiblities..(1) The tip is a fake, and it I.D. is out of spec.(2) The ceramic element is itself too thin.I don't have a micrometer, but I wonder if the inner diameter of a proper tip is equivalent to a standard mm drill size?Or do I have to buy a genuine Hakko tip(the one supplied would be excellent as an interrogation instrument, but rather large for SSOP 25mm chip pins soldering!)So maybe it's just the tip..the one which was supplied is a round conical tip, tell me where I do find the best price and delivery if I want to buy a genuine smaller chisel tip?

author: SuzyC
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2015, 07:22:17 pm
content: Thanx IanB, you are a genius! I didn't think of using paper!I can print out exact 1/8in strips on my laser printer but I just try to eyeball the scissors using a ruler..seems like I could easily have a 1mm error in the cutting.But my laser printer can print a very high accuracy PCB trace line and I can use PCB layout software to precise a 1/8 in strip trace. I think then I can carefully cut exactly outside of the rectangular strip printed on my high quality HP color laser and thereby get a very close strip to 1/8-in.Is 1/8-in the exact spec for the ID of the tip of the Hakko tip?

author: SuzyC
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2015, 07:35:00 pm
content: I also measure 59-ohms on my DVM of the PTC sensor at 21-deg C, I guess that's normal? When the temperature of the tip optimally melts solder the sensor PTC reads approx 110 ohms. Ok, then if I disconnect the 24-VAC transformer and watch the resistance drop with cooling, it will still just barely melt solder at 94-ohms.On heating, a reading of 100-ohms will not melt solder at all, but the resistance must reach a reading of 110-ohm before solder melts easily, it reads about 110-ohms when solder seems to just begin to be optimally melted, but on power switched off, on cooling, a reading of 100 still is a good heat for melting 60/40 solder at the tip and 94-ohms the solder turns to mud.Am I a correct in saying that this 10 or 20-deg C hysteresis a directly result, a measure of the gap between the heating element and the interior of the tip? I am measuring thermal resistance of element to tip, am I not?I seem to get it that the quality of a soldering instrument's regulation of tip temperature is very dependent on the lowest thermal resistance between the heating element and the tip of the tip where soldering action takes place.

author: SuzyC
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2015, 07:51:56 pm
content: Hmm, could I just apply a little thermal compound, I do have a syringe full of computer PC CPU heatsink thermal compound grease, would this help to fill the gap?

author: Nerull
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2015, 07:58:54 pm
content: Most thermal compounds don't like temperatures anywhere near that high.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2015, 08:05:28 pm
content: I've got 3 cheapy handles and an array of several tips that I use on 2 stations.Mone of which are genuine I suspect.Ocassionally I have to "mix & match" nuts, outer sleeves and/or tips to get a combination that snugs the tip properly to the element.I paid little for most of it except the ex Jaycar rework station, bought new some years ago.It works but does need care to be efficent.As the old saying goes: you get what you pay for.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2015, 08:05:55 pm
content: That is what I use, though I use copaslip lube, as it handles the high heat better. Smokes on the first power on, but after that it settles down and the tips never seize on the elements. You buy it at the auto parts store as a brake pad slide lubricant. Also works on drum brake pivots and handbrake adjusters to keep them from seizing the next time. Can also be used when putting on an exhaust manifold to lubricate the threads of the fasteners. That way when you remove it next you do not need a stud extractor to get the broken stud out.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2015, 08:12:09 pm
content: Quote from: SeanB on January 31, 2015, 08:05:55 pm@SeanBMechanical Anti-seize compounds you mention might also include well know brands like:CoppercoteLoctiteHave you tried the Nickel based types?

author: SuzyC
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2015, 08:12:30 pm
content: Thanks for your non-binding advice, tautech and SeanB. I'll see if I can find this at an auto parts store.I don't have any nuts to worry about, but I would really hate it if my nuts started to seize!

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2015, 08:16:44 pm
content: Quote from: SuzyC on January 31, 2015, 07:22:17 pmNo, no, no. This is not exact, it is just to give a rough idea of the closeness of fit. It obviously depends on the exact width of the sliver, and also the thickness (weight) of the paper.What I mean is that if I put the end of such a sliver of paper inside the solder bit, and then try to fit the bit over the ceramic element, it just fits without tearing the paper. So there a gap between element and solder bit, but is is a very small gap.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2015, 08:23:08 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on January 31, 2015, 08:12:09 pmNo, but I have a large can of an aluminium based one that I have tried. Works just as well as the copper one, but when it gets hot it turns to grinding paste. Should work well on the tips, but have not changed any since I put it on so am not going to look to see if it is working. On brakes though it works well, just leaves a black residue mixed with silver, which cooks black with heat.

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2015, 08:28:26 pm
content: FWIW, the average sheet of writing paper (I don't recall the "weight" offhand..) is around 4 mil (0.004", about 0.1mm). Printer paper can be up to double that, for the heavy, opaque, top quality stuff. (Beyond that, it's called "card", or whatever. Photo paper probably gets up there, too.)1/8" is only ~3mm, so you must be pretty sorry at cutting if you can't eyeball that within 1mm (~30%)!Mind that, if you need to print accurate shims... laser printer toner will add a noticeable thickness as well. So, be sure to cut just within the lines. Inkjet probably not... at least, not within the tolerance of whatever paper you're starting with. It will also be very (to the single digit % level) sensitive to humidity and moisture...Not to hammer on it or anything, just an interesting thought to entertain. If you have a micrometer, you could measure some paper you have on hand, and come up with some ideas on using it for shims and gauges (as above).Tim

author: SuzyC
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2015, 08:29:19 pm
content: Oh Oh IanB, sometimes it could be mine is thicker than yours,Is my paper thicker than your paper?When my brother was rebuilding the engine on his VW, he bought something called Slip Sticks, thin pieces of blue shim plastic that showed the end play and run-out and slop of the piston rod sleeve bearings and crank bearings. Clever idea!However, I need an optimally shaped tip for SMD chip soldering, and especially for work with tiny SOT23-6 IC's and the tiny pin to pin spacing of my SSOIC chips. Might be the easiest thing to to is to just buy a Genuine Hakko Tip and see how things fit!What's a good tip to use for this and where to buy it?

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2015, 09:03:26 pm
content: Quote from: SeanB on January 31, 2015, 08:23:08 pmNot surprising, high quality abrasive is aluminium oxide.Quote from: SuzyC on January 31, 2015, 08:29:19 pmSOT23-6 are easy with a smallish tip and for the 28 pin you might want to learn drag soldering.

author: devanno
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2015, 09:20:40 pm
content: Quote from: SuzyC on January 31, 2015, 07:16:11 pmAll the reports I've read on the "fake" tips / elements is that they don't fit snugly. You asked about where to find the best price, etc., but that depends on your location. I suggest checking Amazon or doing an internet search for a true Hakko supplier. I haven't mic'd mine out, but I think we're in the clearance range of only a couple of thousandths... it doesn't take much use developing a slight bit of corrosion between the ceramic and the tip to make them more difficult to change out.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2015, 09:29:38 pm
content: QuoteI bent mine with a plier so the tip is a small J -> used to solder all of my ghetto boards (TSSOP20 STM32F030F, 0.65 pitch). Worked like a charm.As to your fitness question -> it doesn't matter.

author: SuzyC
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2015, 09:36:47 pm
content: BTW, the total length of the tip if5.5cm, seems longer than pictures of Hakko 888d standard tips. The tip fits and is bound to a cylinder that extends back to the screw-locking nut and is one piece with two different internal diameters, that of the sleeve and that of the internal diam of the tip.Where do I get this kind of tip?

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2015, 09:42:17 pm
content: Quote from: SuzyC on January 31, 2015, 09:36:47 pmAre you sure the tip is just not stuck inside the sleeve?Normally only 1 internal diameter.

author: SuzyC
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2015, 09:45:27 pm
content: Thanks tautech,I took the tip off with the sleeve and gave it a vertical good knock upon my worktable and the smaller tip separates from the sleeve and it now matches the pictures of standard 888d tips!

author: SuzyC
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2015, 10:01:08 pm
content: Thanks dannyf,Sounds like a cool bend of soldering reality, but the short, stubby conical tip I have is too fat and stubby and the tip of the tip just seems all too likely to just break off. I've seen some long conical tips and my tip is not that long, this is a great idea that would work swell, but mine is too short.

author: SuzyC
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2015, 10:11:37 pm
content: I found a tip on AdaFruit, seems like it might be what I need to work work, Genuine Hakko tip.What do you all think? It this a good price and a good place to buy it?

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2015, 10:13:54 pm
content: QuoteLooks nice.Just don't bank on it being genuine: unless you go directly to Hakko, chances of your running into a Fakko are high, especially from an unauthorized reseller.

author: SuzyC
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2015, 10:26:21 pm
content: Ok, found a genuine distributor of Hakko and the tip I want at the same price as IdaFruit! Its on order.Hakko Soldering Tip: T18-C2 Hoof - For Lead or Lead-Free Use

author: SuzyC
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2015, 10:36:19 pm
content: BTW, thanks a million to everyone! I am kinda ready to hoof it on to a new post.I have a good transformer and case and soldering iron holder from the kaput old soldering station made by Skylink, now the idea is to get it to work with the new Hakko 8801 handle.The old handle used a thermocouple, the Hakko uses a PTC thermistor, not a pop-in replacement, although I can snap off the center pin of the 6-pin DIN connector and it will plug right in the old station.I know just one thing and maybe that is all I need to know. When the Hakko sensor measures between 100 and 110 ohm, its just at the right temperature for soldering!Possiblities:(1) make a voltage divider that biases the PTC thermistor in the Hakko element and detect when the resistance is 100 ohms, bingo I am at the right temperature and I can turn off the TRIAC until the temperature falls. I detect the temperature(voltage corresponding to 100-0hms) with a LM393 comparator or even an op-amp.(2)Take the output of the voltage divider in (1) and feed it (through a calibration adjust pot) to the thermocouple input connections that went to the old handle, and all I got to do is match the same voltage and I can even see the old station's bar-LEDs temp indicator to show me the temperature settubg and I can then also use the same pot on the front panel to adjust temperature???The only fly in the ointment(ok, soldering paste) is that the output of a PTC thermistor is exponentially changing, while the output of the old thermocouple linearly changes as a scaler with temperature.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2015, 10:43:49 pm
content: It is not difficult to make a universal adapter that takes either PTD or thermocouples as tempearture sensors. One opamp will do.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2015, 10:49:07 pm
content: Quote from: SuzyC on January 31, 2015, 10:11:37 pmWatch for tips that step down quickly to the point, their ability to conduct heat is compromised by this sort of design. Slender taper like the one pictured are best.I have ~ 4 that see the most use, 4 mm chisel, 2 mm chisel, knife, and plain pointed fine.I believe the "hoof" styles are good but as yet I haven't tried or needed them.The 45 degree knife style are excellent for "wiping" off SMD passives as the can bridge both pads at the same time.Handles compatibility.There are 2 main types of elements, you'll have to find the one that suits your station.I converted a station to suit a cheap easily obtainable handle & I can tell you it was a PITA, but can be done.2 irons that fit your station is a good idea as you don't have to risk burning fingers changing tips part way through a project.

author: SuzyC
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2015, 10:55:45 pm
content: Thanks dannyf,Easy for you to say, but I don't have a thermometer that will measure the temperature v. resistance to calibrate things.Is it possible to find the temperature v. resistance of the Hakko 888d handle?If I could get readings of just 50-deg C steps of temp I could interpolate the correct temperature with a MCU for any temperature setting.I bought a cheap soldering station that works kinda like 6-day old Chinese take-out on a starving stomach, it has an LCD indicator that supposedly indicates temperature, but I don't think it knows up from down.One thing I do now, with the Hakko handle running at full power, open-loop, it can easily remove an electrolytic radial through hole cap from a 4-6 layer table top PCB ground plane in less than 30-secs, the old station could never do that!Maybe I can wrap the two handles together with a thin copper sheet and read the temperature of the older handle and write down the corresponding PTC Hakko resistance?Now I might just try this elegant calibration technique, I got some sheet copper, just try to not burn my fingers, char my workbench and not burn down the house.I have three readings so far:21-deg C 59 ohmsNice Lead/Tin 60/40 Soldering Temperature 100-110 ohmsFull Power Open Loop Nuke Meltdown 238 ohms

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2015, 11:49:29 pm
content: How you approach it will depend on your needs.For me, linear approximation is good enough.QuoteThe meltdown is likely in the 450-475c range.You can probably google the melting point for 60/40 solder.Or you can always get a thermocouple + temperature gauge to measure it.Again, it all depends on how picky you want to be.

author: SuzyC
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2015, 11:57:52 pm
content: Thanks dannyf,It seems that solder "begins" to melt at a certain temperature, then there exists a fairly large temperature spectrum of higher temperatures in which the solder remains "plastic/muddy" and finally there is a free-flowing soldering temperature that you instantly recognize when you apply a piece of your favorite solder on the tip and it melts just right.It is not so easy for me to get a thermocouple+gauge.My tying together of two irons is the closest thing I have to achieve calibration.Can anybody post a few other Hakko 888d sensor resistance v. temperature readings?

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2015, 12:02:48 am
content: QuoteThat's life, right: you have to make difficult decisions -> do I make do with what I have, knowing that it is imprecise? or I wait for others to make precise measurements, knowing that while such measurements are precise to their handles, they may not be precise for my handle?It just isn't going to be perfect, either way.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2015, 12:05:56 am
content: Quote from: SuzyC on January 31, 2015, 11:57:52 pmWhen I did one I had a TC for my DMM and connected with a wire clip.You'll find tying irons together will not work, there is too much thermal mass.But if you extract the element and just use that as the sense it might work.

author: SuzyC
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2015, 12:29:25 am
content: Thanks tautech!Genius! Why didn't I think of that??I can dissemble both irons down to the heating element. I could wrap both heating elements together with bare #22 wire and then slide a piece of copper tubing over the both of them to form a fairly isothermal compartment and then read the Hakko resistance versus the "calibrated" temperature reading on the LCD readout of my cheap Chinese soldering station!I don't have any high-temp heat-resistant material to cover the mating heating element pair, so I can hope a piece of copper tubing would serve to keep them near the same temperature and insulate the elements from having different temperatures due to air cooling.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2015, 01:35:46 am
content: Quote from: SuzyC on January 31, 2015, 11:57:52 pmThat depends on the solder. 60/40 solder will behave that way, but eutectic 63/37 solder will melt instantly and solidify instantly. That's a reason many people prefer 63/37 solder. There is less chance of wiggling the joint while the solder is only half solidified.

author: SuzyC
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2015, 02:11:52 am
content: Thanks IanB for your comment,Unfortunately I didn't have any eutectic solder on hand.The reality of it all is that most soldering temperatures can be closely approximated by watching the melting behavior of the solder and if I know the one temperature knob position setting that melts 60/40 just about perfect, then this is just the one dot on the panel that the temperature adj. pot adj. knob needs to point to, and then a slight twist a little to left for delicate work, a little twist to the right for Pb-Free or full max power to lift defective electrolytic caps from 4-layer PC Motherboard ground plane.As long I can buy Pb/Sn, I won't ever touch lead free solder with a hot iron for repair or build.By strapping the two elements together, I discovered that the resistance increases very close to 2.3-ohms for each 10-deg C rise, very linear in the tin/lead soldering temperatures. These temperatures were taken quickly and not averaged, and reversing the temperature readings from 450 to 90 resulted in 5 ohms difference, probably because I am only transferring the heat and measuring the temperature at the part of the element that reaches into the soldering tip of the Hakko, but the older iron may have storage of heat in the mass of a much larger diameter element. If allowed a minute or two to settle, the readings tend to match the temperature rise measurements within -0, +3 ohms. So..my best guess: +/- 5 ohms +/- 20-Deg might be the worst case error. Close enough to melt my metal!Temp C RTC ohms22 60160 80170 82.8180 85.8190 88.1200 89.2210 91.5220 93.4230 95.8240 97.6250 100.2260 102.6270 105.0280 107.3290 109.4300 111.5310 114.7320 117.4330 119.1340 121.3350 123.9360 126.1370 128.0380 130.0390 133.0400 135.0410 138.0420 140.0430 142.0440 144.0450 146.0http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/181625520082New HAKKO FX8801 Soldering Iron Handle for FX888 FX888D Solder Station 26V/65W Approx USD $24 w/shipping int. mailPins 1-2 (clockwise view of male connector) heater element approx 5-ohm DCRPin 3 groundPin 4-5 RTCpint 6 (located in center) NCReaches soldering temperature within 30-secs with a 24VAC 3-Amp AC transformer open loop.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2015, 02:43:20 am
content: Code:Temp C RTC ohms180 85.8190 88.160/40 solder melt between 183-190C, and you had previously measured the PTD resistance at that temperture to be 100 - 110ohm, vs. 85 - 88ohm now.Assuming that the previous data is accurate, you have a temperature sensitivity of 2.8ohm/10C.

author: SuzyC
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2015, 02:51:14 am
content: dannyf,A spot check of my raw data shows that across the range of measurements, it is very close to delta 2.25 to 2.30 ohms/10-Deg C rise over the temperature range of 160-Deg C to 450-Deg C.Solder(60/40) started to just melt and be plastic at that (approx 94 ohm) lower temperature, but the 100-110-ohm (105 Avg) resistance was the "sweet spot." for full liquidity.