Charmhigh T560P4  PnP Problems - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 23, 2020, 12:19:09 am
content: Charmhigh ain't look'n good.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 23, 2020, 12:20:44 am
content: And a new video:

author: Kean
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 23, 2020, 12:24:25 am
content: Awful situation.It is hard to diagnose from a distance, but it really seems to be a batch of poor quality CL feeders.I hope Seon can get hold of a genuine or alternate CL feeder to test with and confirm.

author: nuclearcat
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 23, 2020, 03:21:37 pm
content: Quote from: Kean on June 23, 2020, 12:24:25 amIt more looks like whole machine is piece of useless sh&t.And offering him to pay $10k more for some crap(electric feeders) that might not work as well - is max stupid. And their way gives strong hints, that they dont have anybody else than half-educated tech sales, who is not capable to solve problems and fix bugs, but just person to guide buyer thru usual troubleshooting procedure.Either this machine some OEM/ODM, or some poorly built, unsuccessful clone of other machine. (Or they are just nuts - which is less likely, who in clear mind will ruin their business like this?)Personally, when i buy a product cost more than $500- $1000, I always try to check who is on the other side and how adequate is seller/manufacturer, by asking technically challenging questions. If it is just some reseller, i always take care how i will get my money back, if product are broken.For example, even in case of cheap equipment - asked Lilygo to send me more info for their devboards (how camera connected to ESP32, info was missing on website) for my own software development, they did, with some delay (it was holiday time). Sure now i will buy their products.Most hilarious part (and i feel sad for the guy) that P&P machine is not intended to pick, it's just to place

author: zerohimself
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2020, 06:29:30 pm
content: Yeah, me and Seon both ordered machines at the same time. Mine doesn't arrive for another week. I'll keep everyone posted about how my experience goes.

author: TIOUK
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2020, 07:49:59 pm
content: This is in no way an excuse for Charmhigh and not something you should have to be fixing, might be that they sell bad feeders or it's a bad batch that they should replace FOC, but I hope my problem/solution helps you.So, I have one really old machine from before plastic tapes that throws components in plastic everywhere and as a result turns the air blue.It doesn't use Yamaha feeders, but I think you might be able solve the issue if, like ours, it's the difference in the thickness of the tapes.The plastic tape of my Kingbright LEDs is 0.25mm, paper tape is 1.02mm. For me, the plastic tape isn't held down between the non moving cover and the base of the tape recess, when the fast movement of the cover occurs, plastic tape is able to move vertically. My old PNP feeders don't have a sliding cover,they have a solid plate over a bank of 10, but when the tape advances it bends up and flips the part.The resolution, I glued thin strips of plastic to the plate that covers the tape channels which presses the plastic tape down to the bottom of the channel so it can't move vertically. The first intention was to machine some new cover plates, but the test with glued shims worked.On the Yamaha feeder with paper tape the top cover looks parallel, with plastic tape the non moving part of the cover looks like presses down at the sprocket end of the feeder this might create enough room for the tape to flex up and eject the part. I can see this is going to be far more difficult to achieve, but could you put a shim under the non moving part between the tape peel and the sliding part?It will be interesting to see how our new SMT660 performs when I get it placing, just started the calibration process, but sure glad we passed on the not so charming Charmhigh.

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2020, 03:06:22 am
content: The bouncing parts and the fact that he was able to reduce it somewhat by lowered pressure and flow rate suggests maybe there are dampers in the feeders that have somehow gotten out of position or are missing completely...?Some more discussion of that here:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/manufacture/how-is-your-yamaha-feeder-doing/

author: SMTech
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2020, 10:38:07 am
content: Quote from: amyk on June 25, 2020, 03:06:22 amThe impression I get form that thread is that most of the clones are frankly rubbish but people put up with it because they cost less (~1/5th?) than new ones.On the Essemtec feeders you can adjust the clamping pressure of the bit that holds down the tape, but you don't have a retractable cover at all. As well as a lack of damping it feel like the tape can move too much up and down when advanced.

author: up8051
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2020, 05:00:52 pm
content: Continuation of the Charmhigh story:

author: seon
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2020, 10:23:48 pm
content: They just keep showing they are not dealing in good faith, and they keep getting caught out in lies and deceit.They are just trying to wear me down until I cave, but they've never met someone with my level of stubbornness & determination before... oops!Please help me spread the word to not deal with them - Not all Chinese companies are like this, but those that are need to be shown that in 2020, doing business this was is just unacceptable.It's a crowded marketplace with many competing suppliers offering similar "templated machines", with I'd imagine a much smaller target audience and a lot of competition between suppliers, so it should not be that hard to send a clear message that their behaviour just wont fly.Thanks everyone!SeonUnexpected Maker

author: nuclearcat
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 12, 2020, 08:02:22 am
content: Thats exactly what i am doing, we need to force natural selection to throw them out of market, if people are aware that those guys are selling garbage, so it will be lesson for others.Till now, what i saw:1)Making shitty product, not tested well P&P machine.2)Refusing to support it properly and have zero motivation to fix the bugs. (This is very rare to have such skilled customer, and if he assist it worth all money to refund him, rare opportunity to fix the machine, if company engineers so idiots, that they released such junk.)3)Making idiotic statements, that their P&P(pick&place) is only P(place). (Did they hired yesterday support from department of toilet brushes?)4)Refusing to refund customer while it is obvious, that his influence can do enormous damage to their reputation + EE community is small enough, so he can easily reach each corner.5)Deceiving customer to buy more garbage, promising full refund if doesnt work, that still doesnt work properly and no refund.They had chance to fix situation on each damn step, but some lunatic in company kept pushing his agenda, like guest train station scammer, while company for sure spent resources for making this machines and promoting them.It is really business suicide. Person who made such bad decisions is not qualified even for mopping the floors.

author: HwAoRrDk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 12, 2020, 11:40:35 am
content: It doesn't surprise me that they refused any compensation or a full refund and take the machine back. At this price point, such amounts ($1500 or return packing and shipping fees) would probably wipe out any profit margin they had.Doesn't excuse their behaviour, though. If it's a shitty machine, whether through poor quality or flawed design (or both), then grow up and take responsibility. Being in denial about producing a turd because it could hurt financially is cowardly.I had to laugh about their comment that this negative exposure is bad for their business. What about seon's business? This is bad forhisbusiness!

author: MR
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 12, 2020, 04:04:35 pm
content: Quote from: HwAoRrDk on July 12, 2020, 11:40:35 amIt seems like Charmhigh and Mechatronika can marry each other nowadays.The worst that can happen to pick and place machines are gantry and feeder issues

author: olkipukki
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 12, 2020, 07:41:07 pm
content: Quote from: nuclearcat on July 12, 2020, 08:02:22 amNot really, they will rename from Charmhigh to Charming PnP's and paint eveything in a redAnd people keep buying these with a Hope...

author: HwAoRrDk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 12, 2020, 09:04:27 pm
content: Quote from: olkipukki on July 12, 2020, 07:41:07 pmDon't you meanCharming P? After all, there is no pick!

author: nuclearcat
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 13, 2020, 06:49:07 am
content: Quote from: olkipukki on July 12, 2020, 07:41:07 pmThats why i am saying - EE community is relatively small. If they sell $10k+ product, they need to have decent support.It's not like they can rename it like a toilet brush and sell with hundred other nonames in supermarket.1)A technologically complex product must not only be renamed, but also made a new design, otherwise it will be identified immediately.2)The second problem is that many people will not buy untested noname after the infernal failure of Charmhigh. They made life more complex not only for themself, but also for all new P&P manufacturers.3)Their competitors just had opportunity now to take their niche.

author: MR
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2020, 02:50:55 pm
content: Quote from: nuclearcat on July 13, 2020, 06:49:07 amSeon said that he got the same feeders from another company as well.Our experience is that some resellers are even selling used feeders as new, when looking around some other people can confirm that too however there was nothing wrong with the "used" feeders on our side.And maybe missing steps he could solve by setting the machine slower somehow.So all together it seems that's something someone could get from any small scale manufacturer. I think we also had that problem with our machine (again other manufacturer) at the beginning. Our luck was that that manufacturer integrated an off the shelf servo including controller.After reconfiguring it we did not see that again. For investigating those issues it would be useful to buy adequate equipment eg. a dial indicator.We have tested long and short distances, usually when driving short distances quickly things became a bit misaligned.

author: nisma
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2020, 08:59:29 pm
content: What is the tickness of the feeder plante, probably it is too thin.

author: alanb
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2020, 10:28:49 am
content: Further comment on this.https://youtu.be/3NSSbhoFEw8

author: pisoiu
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2020, 01:11:00 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on June 23, 2020, 12:19:09 amHi,I am currently in the middle of designing and building a pnp machine. For the purpose of analyzing this kind of problems, too fast to be observed with naked eye, I am using a casio ex-zr200 as a budget solution for high speed camera analysis. Image quality is crap at high speed but it can do 1000 fps at ~200usd so I'm not complaining. Perhaps such tool would be useful in your case.Looking at feeder problems, I don't think the vibrations (which tumbles components) comes from head movement, poor feeder fixture, etc. It is a high frequency mechanical vibration and it must come from low mass items. I think it comes from the tape being pushed on that curved evacuation channel, when advancing. If the surface of the evacuation channel is not smooth, tape may rub against wall with variable mechanical pressure and vibrate. I think you can check this by hanging a weight to the tape end, at the exit, so that the tape is constantly under tension. May worth a try to see if it solves the problem.

author: SMTech
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2020, 03:31:36 pm
content: Quote from: pisoiu on July 14, 2020, 01:11:00 pmI suspect that because the tape wraps round a spikey gear type thing, hanging a weight on the exit would do almost nothing at all, the jumping is happening before that apparently under the retracting cover. Most feeders clamp the tape down so it can't move, the feeder parts (little bits of sprung steel) that do this on his feeders are either crap or missing depending on the feeder size plus there's all sorts of slop and other movement in the whole feeder itself. His feeders are plain nasty but there are 100% also other issues with he rest of the machine. Just about every mainstream machien from Autotronik (Chineseish to Essemtec or Fuji) would have LogmeIn or something simailr to let them dial in and run some diagnostic tools in real time with the user. On our Essemtec you can see live readings from every sensor and encoder in the control system, diagnostic info from the vision system, everything so you can dial in on root causes pretty quickly. Feeders less so, but these feeders are dumb, either they work or they don't.

author: seon
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2020, 03:12:23 am
content: Hahaha, Charmhigh are taking peoples comments down off their videos on YT.This is their "look how good we test the machines" video... Now 0 comments!https://youtu.be/HFnfTX8dvpEI have screenshot evidence of what was posted - nothing bad or even rude or insulting.... well, mine called them liars, because they are, and I have all the proof to back it up, but still, CHMT are hiding any evidence of shady workmanship or that they sell untested and crap hardware.https://twitter.com/unexpectedmaker/status/1285768586774994944Seriously, everyone needs to boycott them - So many alternatives for same level hardware are available, so if you are looking for a PnP, don't buy Charmhigh, buy from one of their competitors.SeonUnexpected Maker

author: nuclearcat
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 22, 2020, 04:51:05 am
content: I think its link to wrong youtube video.Correct one ishttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZpHuxBBOZs&feature=youtu.beTest, that is barely enough for some $10 home appliance.

author: seon
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2020, 05:54:32 am
content: Quote from: nuclearcat on July 22, 2020, 04:51:05 amThey have a few test videos.. all show poorly tested machines.SeonUnexpected Maker

author: zerohimself
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2020, 02:03:26 am
content: So far I can't speak either way to my experience.. the shipping company mishandled everything, and I got the machine, but had to wait more than a week to get my feeders.. Upon first run of the machine, it was configured in chinese(with English behind a password wall, that I can't yet access),and the X axis began crashing into the machine's body due to a lack of the leaver on the endstop switch (it was either broken off at some point, or never present, but I don't want to speak prematurely about how this could have arrived this way, at least until I remove the old switch and examine it), but so far to this point charmhigh is communicating and has sent out a package with new switches, and some extra's according to them. I am trying to give them a fair chance here, hopefully they are trying to improve their service after Seons experience and videos.I'll keep everyone posted on how my experience goes, once I am able to setup the machine and get it picking (and hopefully placing).

author: Ribster
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2020, 09:08:31 am
content: I've had the machine for 1+ years now. And i can say that my feeders do not have this issue. They were also supplied from charmhigh.It's a cheap chinese machine. So expectations should be handled accordingly.I've had 1 pick head smash into my pcb because i did not set the pick height of a 7mm smd cap correctly. This mangled the hollow stepper shaft.I've ordered 2 new ones and replaced it. No issue there.I do have 1 feeder bank position that does not work, this is after 9 months of use. I assume that the valve / coil failed. Have not yet replaced that part.The pressure reduction he put on the individual feeders is a fix he's using for the pressure. If you just decrease the flow of the air to the feeder, it will just reach the pressure more slowly, as he said.Now, he can take the edge off with this reduction, but will need a non-return valve (don't know what it's called in english) in parallel over the reduction. So he only limits one direction.That said, altering the individual feeder pneumatics is not the way to go.On my feeders, the pressure at .6 MPa is just perfect. I've had some issues with the 24mm/16mm (can't remember) feeders in combination with a plastic usb-c connector.In this case the plastic tape falls down on one side in the feeder. But hey, it's not a big deal.Doing 0402 parts, which i almost always do, is pretty stable. Sometimes i have a resistor on it's side, but in the correct rotational direction.On the most part, can't complain for the machine. It does what it needs to do for my needs.IMHO, there is a lot of energy going on with the youtube making. Their experience is valuable. But it's a sample size of 1.There are others out there that are using the machine successfully.It's certainly no fun if you get the machine and there are issues, but, it's expected. Try and be creative, get to know the machine and do some manual pick/placing when required.

author: SMTech
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2020, 10:32:05 am
content: Our relationships with companies are not forged when tings are going well, rather by how they respond when things go poorly. We recently had two issues with PCs the first was a HP unit that stopped POSTing after a windows update, in 2 days HP had sent someone out with a new motherboard (3 year onsite warranty option taken up by the equipment manufacturer that put this PC in their kit) . The second was a new laptop delivered damaged from Dell, 3 weeks on, we are still waiting for a refund & for them to arrange collection, you can guess who won't get another sale. The impression I get with all of these machines is that on the whole if you have a small issue and ask for a part, you seem to get a response and a spare part. This is as you'd expect and what is required.What has happened here is the machine has much more than a minor fault and their response has been poor to say the least. As there are no proper on-board diagnostic tools on board and some of the issues could be caused by different problems, China has no way of helping remotely, they are are relying on guesswork tainted by language barriers and client ideas, and somewhere in the conversation someones fur got rubbed the wrong way and there doesn't appear to be a way of getting back to an even footing. I've watched a few of his videos, you can hear just how upset and angry he is even when he's trying to laugh it off its quite hard when you feel that way to deal nicely with the people causing the issue, a 3rd party maybe, but the lack of one of those is just one of the things that makes this machine cheap.

author: Mark19960
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2020, 01:38:13 pm
content: Been watching this situation from afar and I know a few people with these Charmhigh machines and the various clones.. or is the Charmhigh a clone? who knows.With any larger scale projects I just get the boardhouse to assemble it.They will do it cheaper and faster than I can.My issue is that Charmhigh won't get the thing sorted.And if they can't or won't get the thing sorted you can't rely on them for support period.Not the first time I have heard about them not supporting or poorly supporting the end user and support is kind of important with these machines.That said, for my proptyping I pulled the trigger on another machine the other day and I had been considering one of their desktop machines.Charmhigh lost out on that one because I don't think I could rely on them to support the machine.Not going to have that nightmare and be out 5k nicker!!!!

author: SMTech
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2020, 02:08:21 pm
content: Quote from: Mark19960 on August 06, 2020, 01:38:13 pmIndeed but how many of the others would act in the way we would like with an issue of similar scale? The machine in question clearly has an entire batch of crap feeders, which has to mean other people do too but also has dodgy drives/wonky frame/poor belt tension affecting the overall accuracy.I can only reiterate what I've heard about a certain other brand, the reseller in the UK was so unhappy with the build quality and support they received they ended up refunding multiple installs out of their own pocket and took them off their books. In that instance there were two level of support open to them, China and the European distributor who was somehow still in the mix and had a very european shrug response to pretty much everything. On that basis I don't think you can RELY on any of them, they are just machines that will do a job and you need to be able to handle significant self diagnosis & solving of issues and waits for parts if issues crop up.I can rely on our Essemtec, its a global company with spares in multiple locations, dedicated support staff, knowledgeable trained distribution channels and everything on the machine is configured for remote diagnostics. All of that we have to pay for, its comparatively expensive but by no means the most expensive option and critical to the operation of the business, the cheaper option is to buy a 2nd user machine that also has all those support avenues still open. If this Essemtec machine had arrived working that poorly, I wouldn't have just had the local tech here, there would almost certainly be an engineer from Switzerland on-site too.

author: nightmar3
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: August 10, 2020, 10:28:08 pm
content: Hi Everyone,Just to let you know. I bought the same machine about a couple months ago and finally got around to getting it up and running unfortunately....I am having the same issue as Seon with the part bounce. Not only that but some of my feeders are completely useless. I have found about 5 of my 3 (8mm feeders) are not able to keep the air and I believe it is because of a faulty solenoid. I will keep you guys posted since Seon and Zero have not provided any update. I pinged them with a couple of updates the past couple of days I will see if I get different feedback than Seon

author: Whales
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 11, 2020, 12:10:33 am
content: He's now claiming he will take all of his videos down if Charmhigh sends him working electric feeders. Sounds like a dangerous promise, but given his claims that Charmhigh won't talk to him it might not be much of a risk.

author: Whales
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 11, 2020, 12:45:11 am
content: New claims: machine mysteriously picks up and places parts from feeders that are not even being used for the given board. Vacuum (loss?) detect doesn't work. Vision is unreliable. Machine behaves slightly better after reboots.I was thinking the head accel/decel might be too high and parts are flinging off, but that doesn't explain why his 0402 resistors started reliably appearing in one spot.

author: Whales
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 11, 2020, 12:52:07 am
content: I really want to see footage of this machine failing to place parts. Rhetorical questions:- Can you record/tap off video from the vision camera whilst it's running?- Can you tell the machine to run the head a lot slower?

author: Whales
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 11, 2020, 12:57:32 am
content: Quote from: nightmar3 on August 10, 2020, 10:28:08 pmWelcome to the forum nightmar3.Faulty air solenoid? Hmm. I remember from repairing printers that simple/tiny things can throw solenoid timing off, eg steel-on-steel contact where there used to be a small foam or paper spacer (residual magnetism in the touching steel parts makes them stick for a little longer). It would be worth checking if they are all the exact same solenoid design or not.I hope things go well for you. Keep things polite and best of luck.

author: Whales
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 29, 2020, 11:11:11 pm
content: We're back with "NEWS! Delivery from Charmhigh!"Summary:- 3rd party now helping mediate between Charmhigh & Unexpected Maker- UM has received replacement feeders (electric instead of pnuematic) from CH- One new feeder tested appears to be much better (not bouncing/losing parts), but UM is still to try them all- UM says CH won't acknowledge any problems with the machine itself, only the feeders, so he is only negotiating about feeders- UM says he will take down all videos + forum posts critical of CH if this fixes the major problems with the PnP.- UM is really pissed and wants to "move on", not keep making videos about CH, doesn't want his channel to become centred around CH critiqueI hope this fixes his problems and he doesn't end up walled by new ones. It's risky to say the problems are only in the feeders, but I'm not sure if the other side will appreciate this risk. I hope both sides can work it out.

author: seon
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 05, 2020, 09:01:31 am
content: Well, here's the finale! It's a wrap... seriously, I've tapped out!SeonUnexpected Maker

author: Mecanix
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 05, 2020, 10:39:46 am
content: Quote from: seon on September 05, 2020, 09:01:31 amNice wrap-up and lucky you to have something that can be worked out, for that sort of price range anyway. Still on the All Mighty Tweesers here so I'm kinda jealousI gather from a quick glance at your thread you had a bit of bumpy ride to get it to work, watched that last vid and would like to suggest ideas on the subject of jumping parts and misalignment;- "Jumping Parts". Add weight. Enclosure construction appears weak & light sheet metal (no damping and prone to nasty harmonics). Without over-killing it, add a great amount of weight to it while carefully making sure you aren't bending its axis. Have e.g. a precision level on its axis, monitor that and gradually add that weight in.- "Homing & Repeatability". I'd be surprised the engineering dept have chosen thermally stable materials to build this machine, let alone adding temp sensors and software compensation/coefficients required to cope with this like other machine-tools have. That said, always "use and calibrate" that machine at the same time of the day or when its within a 2~3dC temp difference from the previous cal/run only. It won't 'magically' fix it however improve greatly on the repeatability side of things- "Accuracy". Google the term Axis Backlash and learn how to measure it. You'll need a dial-indicator (few dollars) with a magnetic base ideally. Process is as simple as moving the axis in one direction for a known amount of distance, then back to original starting location (note the offset on the dial indication, that's your backlash). Once you know where and how much, you can compensate via software whether manually before use or automated (not sure they have this feature, should have).Have plenty of other ideas for you but that would be a good starting point. Hope this helps a bit. Have fun.

author: ar__systems
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 05, 2020, 01:19:25 pm
content: I've had similar problems with CL feeders on my TVM920. Some appears to be worse than others. I too experimented with flow control and pressure. It can be made to work with asymmetrical valves (restricted flow out, unrestricted in). In the end I figured that rubber band around the feeder (to push the top moving plate down) is easier. Rubber bands keep breaking but I don't care. That trick virtually eliminated the problem for me.Few suggested weight of the machine - no. This has nothing to do with machine. It is a feeder issue.

author: kylehunter
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 05, 2020, 06:40:56 pm
content: Quote from: ar__systems on September 05, 2020, 01:19:25 pmCare to show some pictures of the rubber band method? We have 0 issues with parts jumping on 0603s and up, but on 0402s it can be pretty bad at times.

author: SMTech
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 05, 2020, 09:42:27 pm
content: Quote from: Mecanix on September 05, 2020, 10:39:46 amIts a closed system, he can look for loose belts & dodgy couplers, and that is absolutely the clients job when you buy a cut price thing from China, but tweaks involving firmware/software & drive control are a dead end and a waste of time and money to chase down. I think you'd need to take this thing to bits and reassemble it to even get close to having a full picture of how many things are adding up to make it this bad.

author: Mecanix
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 06, 2020, 01:11:19 am
content: Quote from: SMTech on September 05, 2020, 09:42:27 pmSure is. OP seems shattered, was just trying to chime in some. I personally haven't seen one of those machine in person but read from someone who've just had his $14.5k gone to the bin, literally. That thing came with cheap rubber timing belts without inner cords, stepper motors (I'm serious lol), no encoders, an offset in the linear rails squareness, zero motion profiling in terms of acceleration & deceleration, etc etc the non-sense list never ended. Funniest; had acetal (POM) made parts all over it i.e. a material with a thermal expansion coefficient greater than any others. Could pick-and-place a SOP-8 but positioning/repeatability was based "on luck" all depending on the ambient temp on that day, forget about 0805 and below (8 score out of ten, kinda set-up...).I could be dead wrong but looks like there some sort of scam going on. Appears that a few figured out "Makers" are on the rise and the need for P&P machines are also, taking advantage of that "trend" so to speak. Not sure if its because I've been looking into gearing up myself but I seem to find those Chinese look-alike PnP machine everywhere I look. And they aren't exactly cheap considering the good ones they sell cost $500~600 in parts, optics and sheet metal (max), add $100 for that random worker who assemble it :/ *Beware folks lol*