Meeting the Rigol R&D manager: what would you ask? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: scrat
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 09, 2012, 11:43:16 pm
content: Hi,sorry for the strange place for this thread (this is not a review, but could possibly be about products, so I posted it here).Monday 12th in the afternoon (CET) I'm going to a presentation by the Rigol R&D manager. This, at least, is the promise of a reputable distributor, which among other marks sells Rigol products. They say this person has a wide experience in Tektronix and Agilent...Since Rigol, besides their products, seems to be quite unreachable as a company, I think it's interesting.Maybe I'll have the possibility to directly ask some questions. What would you ask?

author: amspire
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 09, 2012, 11:56:13 pm
content: Can they please have a policy to make the service manuals available to customers as a PDF download?If not now, can they have a policy that after 5 years or 10 years, they release their manuals?It is a pity that they are making all this fine equipment, but it will be near impossible for hobbyists to keep it working the way they can keep old HP, Tek and Fluke gear working.To me, I feel that modern companies have no pride in the equipment they make, and unfortunately, they don't seem to mind if it ends up on the scrap heap after 5 to 10 years when it becomes uneconomical to pay for a factory service.If they cannot do this, can they at least have a reliable archive for manuals, software, etc for old equipment? Again, many companies don't even bother with that.I think going forward, the company that has the policy of making service manuals available will become the new HP. I am not sure it will be Agilent.Richard.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2012, 12:07:40 am
content: Even Agilent only do module-level service manuals these days, which are of minimal use - for most faults the only answer is "Replace main board".

author: nukie
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2012, 12:14:36 am
content: When I have a huge list of bugs that render the oscilloscope useless, when I ask for firmware fix I was told it was discontinued. They don't even bother to ask for my firmware version. So is this what they are going to do to all the products they release? New products released old products unsupported?It fumes me everytime I have to access a function with a bug. So for now, I won't buy a Rigol luckily I have other wonderful choices like Hantek/Tekway.Look how other established companies like Mastech, Extech do their business. They have very good support for dinosaur products. Sorry if it sounds like a kid whining about his melted ice cream but I felt like being ripped off for a product that doesn't do what it was advertised to do.

author: amspire
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2012, 12:25:45 am
content: The point I was trying to make about the manuals is that the people using their equipment at home who cannot afford to pay $500 for a failure in a 10c part are the same people who are recommending what products their company should buy.Companies who couldn't care less about their old products will suffer when a company appears who really does care about their old products. If I am recommending an instrument, I want to know I won't be embarrassed in 5 years when a company no longer even wants to know about an old product.If they do not prepare a service manual now (with schematic - even if they do module replacement), then it is guaranteed that they never will.At the moment, I see Rigol as good for "throw away" quality gear - the sort of stuff that you buy expecting it may not work in 5 years. Would I buy $5000+ gear from them. I don't really trust them right now.I suspect that the R&D manager may actually be proud of his designs, but probably the accountants are not.Richard.

author: Bored@Work
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2012, 09:26:03 am
content: * No long-term support for their equipment* Silently hardware obsolescence (e.g. DG1022 00.01 hardware), combined with immediately dropping all support for the old hardware (no new firmware, no PC software fixes) shortly after market introduction.* The sad state of their PC software* No easy firmware update download. Instead the need of having to beg their "support". No pro-active information that new firmware is available.* Their "support". Pre-sales: Impossible to get information about details, even when threatening to actually buy there wares. Post-sales: A lottery is more predictable.* Disappearance of information every time they redo their website, e.g they once had app. notes. And their "support" of course knows nothing about it.

author: nukie
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2012, 11:39:15 am
content: Sorry I just realised he's going to meet the R&D manager so at most he can do is to relay the info to the customer service department. I doubt they care much about International users, nowadays their domestic sales are more important to them.

author: T4P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2012, 04:02:15 pm
content: To make it big , anyway , i hardly see any china residents using rigol , they use atten .Rigol and Atten needs the above mentioned fixes to make it big .

author: Ajahn Lambda
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2012, 05:04:54 pm
content: Tell them to not even bother with their half-assed attempts at removing the information from the tops of ICs anymore. Remember Dave's tear-down and inspection of the DS1052E?"Okay, I hit it with a piece of 60-grit sandpaper for half a second. That should prevent anyone fromeverknowing it's an Analog Devices chip!"

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2012, 05:19:41 pm
content: Heck, tell the R&D manager that he/she should start to do r&d in food or other type business should Rigol decided to change the direction of the company into food producer like making noodle or even making frying pan, and will shutdown the scope manufacturing by tomorrow if owner predicts in next few months will be a bad for scope biz.If they're not govt backed/funded (fully private) company, majority of these type are typically very short sighted.

author: Fender123
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: March 11, 2012, 08:20:45 am
content: R&D is Ok, just need more work on usability. Whole support concept. And firmwares etc.Rigol's problem is service to international customers. I was taken for a complete ride around the world just to get a 50 cents worth probe-clip replacement which never worked properly, it just fell off the probe tip. Funny thing is the time wasted by all their support staff was ten times more expensive. Their best suggestion was to buy a new probe set. I cannot imagine the nightmare to get a replacement screen or board.What a difference between Chinese and Japanese! Years ago, we had a Japan-made ageing digital storage scope, which died. We contacted the supplier, and after answering a few questions, they immediately, they sent, free of charge, a bag of components to replace in the power supply, with instructions.For big ticket equipment, I think I'll just stay away. Rigol was interesting, for a while...

author: scrat
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2012, 03:02:43 pm
content: As I expected, I collect many complaints about service, manuals,...Any technical questions?

author: scrat
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2012, 10:08:41 pm
content: Sorry for the long absence!I discovered that the Rigol R&D manager was "on tour" in Italy. I appreciate the effort, it's quite unusual (since he's not a singer or an actor!).The presentation was mainly about the DS4000, which is not an hobbist's scope. It has some nice features, and has in its base version many features that are considered optionals on Tek and Agilent (some kind of triggers, for example). Besides what you can find on the datasheet, some details are interesting, like the very fast response to all commands, or the "recording" function, which records a certain (quite high) number of trigger sweeps (also present on the DS1000E), and also allows to find those in which the signal was out of a certain mask (pass/fail). I don't remember exactly, but they claimed a big difference in the BW specs for the high sensitivity range (1mV/div), with respect to others (Tek and Agilent), which I didn't verify on the datasheets.Oh, the knobs are exactly the same as on my DS1052E! Why don't they invest few euros more for their mid-class instruments?I think it's fair mentioning the e-commerce site of the company which organized the meeting:www.shopalldata.itA good thing is they should offer assistance (at least for Italy, Slovenia, Croatia and Serbia), being a well-known electronics instrumentation supplier.

author: Galenbo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 22, 2012, 11:49:41 am
content: Quote from: scrat on March 09, 2012, 11:43:16 pmCan I come to your factory, to meet the R&D Engineers for a week?

author: scrat
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 14, 2012, 08:12:02 am
content: Could have been a good question...

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 14, 2012, 08:35:56 am
content: I'd rather ask when Rigol starts making 4 channel entry level scopes. There is a huge gap in the market!

author: poorchava
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 14, 2012, 02:39:56 pm
content: True that. A while ago I got interested in various motor (stepper, bldc) driving techniques. After spending some time at this, I'd say that 3+ chanel scope is essential. Personally I've only got Atten ADS1022, and bandwidth is fine in most cases, but an extra 2 channels would rock.Also, when debugging for example bidirectional SPI at least 3 channels are nice to have.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 14, 2012, 04:01:38 pm
content: I ended up buying a Tektronix TDS744A. 500MHz / 4 channels, long memory and FFT.

author: 0xdeadbeef
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 14, 2012, 04:24:50 pm
content: Talking of Rigol: is anything known if at least the better Rigol scopes (DS2000/DS4000) base the automatic measurement on the sample buffer (as Lecroy scopes) and not on the screen buffer (as Owon and all the Agilents I used up to now).I.e. can you automatically measure a period with the resolution of the sample frequency (or at least close to it) no matter what the current display time resolution is?

author: T4P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 14, 2012, 06:18:23 pm
content: Quote from: 0xdeadbeef on May 14, 2012, 04:24:50 pmRight... But Agilents are lovely... Wait, WHICH AGILENT?

author: 0xdeadbeef
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 14, 2012, 06:38:45 pm
content: While this is a bit offtopic: we have some oldschool CRT based Agilent MSOs at work,which were crap about ten years ago when we bought them. We also have several MSO7000A, which are so basic and limited compared to Teks or Lecroys roughly in the same price range that it's nearly unbelievable that anybody would buy them. The only nice thing that you could say is that they are silent and don't consume much power. So honestly: I loved the old HP logic analyzers and e.g. Agilent signal generators (3352x) are really great, but all Agilent scopes I used in the last 10 years or so were a sad joke regarding trigger possibilities, measurement features and also measurement accuracy. Probably there are other usecases where they are somewhat usable, but for embedded stuff they just lack too many features.

author: scrat
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2012, 10:56:24 am
content: Quote from: 0xdeadbeef on May 14, 2012, 04:24:50 pmYou're right! I forgot to check this on the scope I could try for a moment! However, I think that I could ask to the reseller, they're not the usual ebay-like shop, they are in the T&M market since many years.BTW, the DS1052 has a counter, which works quite good, so at least for frequency the problem is almost solved.

author: 0xdeadbeef
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2012, 10:28:25 pm
content: Quote from: scrat on June 26, 2012, 10:56:24 amIn the meantime I learned that the DS4000/DS2000 limits the digits in automatic and manual measurements to 4 digits. So e.g. you can measure 100.1µs, but not 100.01µs. Furthermore, there seems to be a bug regarding cursor measurements which makes it impossible to move the cursors independently in zoom mode.Quote from: scrat on June 26, 2012, 10:56:24 amA counter only helps for periodic signals.Some other thoughts on the new Rigols:- It's a shame that there's no 4ch scope in the DS2000 line. If you want 4ch you need to get a DS4000.- There's no MSO option.- While serial decoding options are affordable on the DS2000, the SPI decoding is kinda crippled as no CS is supported (e.g. Hameg HMO 2ch scopes can use ext. trigger input as CS). Again, if you need real SPI decoding, you have to get a DS4000, where each protocol option costs around 600€ -> decoding of I2C and SPI and UART costs ~ 1k5€. This is a bit excessive. E.g. he very same package costs 226€ (including VAT) for Hameg HMOs and 345€ if you need decoding on digital channels as well. Even for the DSOX3000, you get at least two protocols for ~600€, not just one.- Neither the DS2000 nor the DS4000 supports searching or setting markers in the large sample memory.- Some automatic measurements are missing, e.g. counting pulses/edges.- advanced trigger options have to be paid forAll in all my conclusion is that the DS2000 and DS4000 are not quite as attractive as the first impressions suggests.Besides my experiences with a DG2000 arbitrary generator make me wonder if I really want to buy from Rigol again as they seem to drop product support while a product is still on sale.

author: Gunb
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2012, 12:42:23 pm
content: QuoteFunny, reducing scopes to one special case.QuoteYes, the bug I told you about at mikrocontroller.net . But then you should mention also that I've reported the bug to Rigol support, they've confirmed immediately. It's in progress to be fixed, usually it take up to 2-3 months until an update is released.QuoteWho cares if the user does not need it. If yes, buy another scope, just that simple.QuoteWrong. Not as comfortable and comprehensive as with Agilent, Hameg & Co., but recording frames and choosing a template offers revealing deviation of the amplitude, time and shape of a signal. A bottom bar shows the position in memory. Many cases can be captured with that function.QuoteI can find nearly every scope where I'm missing a few functions. It's always a compromise unless you take more money.Counting pulses can be done also with any cheap counter up to a much higher frequencies, not the general usage of a scope.QuoteWrong. The DS4000 includes them all without extra fees. Absolutely OK to downgrade to DS2000which do not. Users who don't need them never get a scope for less money, users who need them latercan purchase later und users who need all these options immediately buy a DS4000, just that simple.And bus decoding of DS4000 series is in the range of Agilent scopes, even a bit cheaper.QuoteAlways complaining as always. A few weeks ago at mikrocontroller.net, too. No scope can be good enough - funny!By the way: three bugs in the DS4012 where fixed within hours after reporting. Currently I'm waiting for the cursor bugfix.I also own the HMO2524, which has many options more and 4 channels, but less memory and no zoom in roll mode as theRigol. Usually updates need many months more as for the Rigol.Concluding it always depends on the user's needs what to decide for, but that doesn't degrade the Rigol scopes more thanothers.

author: 0xdeadbeef
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2012, 04:46:02 pm
content: It would be too tiresome to comment on each and every bit and anyway arguing with people that tend to be so emotional and aggressive in their discussion habits is nothing I really enjoy, so let's ignore all that usual flaming and have a look at the two "wrong" statements of mine:1) The advanced trigger option AT-DS2 contains triggers like "delay trigger" and "windows trigger" etc. that are not mentioned at all in the most current DS4000 manual. Maybe they were added with a firmware update in the meantime, but then the manual is not up to date. Or maybe they are defined as subset of other trigger features. But at first look, some of the optional triggers seem to be missing in the DS4000.2) The correlation feature that the DS2000/4000 feature to identify deviations from a default waveform is something completely different than a search feature. IMHO it's completely useless for non-periodic signals while a proper search feature of course isn't. And markers are so obviously different that I don't need to comment about them. So like it or not, but not implementing a sensible search function lowers the usefulness of that large memory quite a bit.Besides, what sense does it make to lower your expectations all the time? Lots of people do so nowadays but this just leads to more crappy products and a downwards spiral from a quality point of view. I refuse to share this attitude, so if this makes me a bitcher in your eyes, I can certainly live with it.

author: Gunb
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2012, 07:00:33 pm
content: There's nobody aggressive, maybe you feel so everytime you don't understand the devices you're discussing about which you don't own and being corrected by people who have more experience. When you're wrong, you're wrong.QuoteOf course, why should they be mentioned as an option when they're standard. Logically there's no AT-DS2 option for DS4000.QuoteNo, absolutely not, they're included from the beginning and that's what the manual says. I printed it months ago, it's there very easy to find. You should read it.QuoteOh man, you're really a funny guy. Nobody said that it would be useful for ANY kind of signal, but it's wrong to say it couldn't be used for that at all - done it a few times, and worked fine for that purpose. Nothing else was said before, and your argumentation that there's no search functionality at all is wrong then.QuoteRead your own threads and maybe you'll notice your permanent afflictions. Many people are very comfortable with the devices. Better you should work a while with the units before you're teaching others who own them and use them every day. Up to now I didn't miss any of the functions you permanently complaining about. And I know a few other guys who are comfortable with these scopes, too.Especially you should learn reading manuals first - that's not agressive, but a fact.CheersBy the way: meanwhile I own a third Rigol device, which is new in the market. Today I've got an update fixing two bugs - very nice! Support has done it's job very well again ;-)

author: 0xdeadbeef
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2012, 07:34:26 pm
content: Sorry, I already wasted too much of my lifetime in the µC forum to discuss trivial and obvious implementation issues with you - and I spent already all of my patience there. So I don't intend to do it all over again in this forum just because you like to argue.I uttered my concerns about the Rigol and I don't see where you would have invalidated them.Anyway, let's just wait and see until you detect a flaw in the functionalityyouneed and then you'll be swearing and cursing like you were because of your HMO.

author: Gunb
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2012, 09:51:37 pm
content: LOL - you ask me more then we've discussed - and the person who wasted time was I since I answered to all your questions you've used later in this forum to pretend to be an expert. Vice versa you told me ten times what I knew long before we've started.QuoteBla bla, as always. Cannot happen, we're only talking about material things - not important to me. And if I need a scope with missing features which we don't have in the lab, I just buy it - just that simple.

author: 0xdeadbeef
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2012, 10:52:39 pm
content: Yeah well, your way of twisting facts is really unique, yet a little predictable. Honestly after the µC.net discussion I can't take your self acclaimed expertise seriously anymore anyway.Be that as it may, I don't care. Just ask yourself when and why you joined this forum and what your activities where since then.

author: Gunb
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 28, 2012, 07:24:37 am
content: Quote from: 0xdeadbeef on June 27, 2012, 10:52:39 pmI joined this forum long ago under a different name, I'm not a new user ;-)You should accept that other users - especially those who own the devices and use them daily - correct your mistakes that base only on a theoretical approach by reading the manual roughly.You're quotes about the options of the DS4000 are wrong, that's a fact. It's also a fact the users do not reduce usage of scopes to your always quoted 100.01µs pulse-problem. And blaming the Rigol support always not to be helpful where others are successful might be your personal experience. Should be also allowed to report other's experience, especially when the results have been very positive.Just to give a broad hint: a friend of mine worked for many years at one of the big scope manufacturers and I know very well why some of your permanent discussed limitationscannot be implemented, especially because I know details about the schematics, firmware and used chips. And it's even not just a matter of clumsy firmware implementation as you always try to explain.Have a nice day.

author: Galenbo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2012, 11:44:26 am
content: To reply to the topic question:I would ask the R&D manager to throw these 2 guys out.To be put in a cage, full of weapons. Only 1 guy comes out alive..