ITAR frame rate limit work around - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: xidilamini
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: July 16, 2019, 01:27:36 pm
content: I remember that the reason why ITAR limit thermal camera's frame rate to <9hz is to prevent people use them on thermal tracking missiles.However, for a project that big/serious, I think the budget would be very huge, so they can just use multiple cores, and start them with a little time shift, then... problem solved?With good timing, they just need about 4 imagers to get 30hz, and 8 imagers to get 60hz. Or do I get anything wrong?

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2019, 03:30:43 pm
content: The last thing I would wish to assist with is circumvention of Dual Use technology regulations on a public forum, especially when missiles are the example case ! For that reason I will not comment on your proposal but will comment on the regulations that control thermal imaging technology, and that is not just ITAR.Thermal imaging sensor arrays are commonly read out at full frame rate. That is a well known fact. The video processing that follows is used to set the frame rate presented to the user. The current regulations pertaining to thermal imaging take account of resolution and frame rate capability. The regulations were relaxed some years ago to enable greater use of thermal imaging technology in countries deemed non-threatening to the USA and Western Europe. The <9fps limit is actually very generous considering the concerns surrounding this dual use technology. There are many who would say 9fps is still adequate for many weapon systems and so the limit should have been nearer to 1fps.The <9fps thermal cameras remain a controlled technology. Many people do not realise this. The regulations were modified to permit such cameras to be sold and supplied in friendly countries with a far simpler paperwork process. High frame rate cameras have always been available in those countries, it just took some paperwork and checks to purchase one. The <9fps cameras and their associated FPA’s remain a prohibited item when it comes to supplying them to certain countries considered a threat to Western democracy. I will not get into the politics of that. The regulations and restrictions are in place for good reason and that is just how life is, no matter how unfair it may seem to some.So with regard to your question....... there are easier ways to achieve the desired result and this is why the actual Thermal Imaging FPA is a controlled technology, and not just the whole camera. The ‘good guys’ do not want the ‘not so good guys’ or ‘bad guys’ getting their hands on large quantities of the sensor arrays, be they just the FPA or whole cameras.That is enough from me but please do consider carefully what you say on a public forum. Detailing a potential work around for international dual use technology regulations may not be the best of ideasYou can certainly ask the question but people need to be a little careful in their responses.Fraser

author: filssavi
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2019, 03:31:49 pm
content: From the electronics point of view it could be done, and I guess It would’t even be that difficult.The optics design needed to support that contraption would probably be a nightmare, I guess, since you have to compensate for the sensors being offset, keeping in mind that l custom high performance IR lenses don’t exactly grow on trees.Also since the thermal sensor’s resolution is so poor I don’t think you will have a much better time trying to do it with DSP.Also keep in mind that even in case you succeeded, Uncle Sam is probably going to not like what you are doing, and I think there are multiple ways they can make your life difficultAll in all is probably easier to jump through the hoops and buy a off the shelf ITAR controlled thermal imager, the only caveat is that if you live in a country that is classified as an enemy by the USA (China, Russia, Iran, and so on) this is not possible

author: OwO
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2019, 04:21:01 pm
content: There are far better ways to get access to >9fps thermal imaging especially if we are talking about state level/military level budgets and quantities required. I don't think anyone here really thinks Russian and Chinese military haven't had this technology for a long time. Fuck, I just saw some Chinese companies selling 30fps thermal cameras to the general public a while ago. Export controls are stupid and only affect plebs like you and me and are no more than security theater.

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2019, 06:18:26 pm
content: Who said Russia and China did not have thermal imaging technology capable of 30fps ? The question you should ask is whether the likes of N.K., IRAN and some other embargoed countries have free access to the weapon grade technologyTry exporting a load of 320 x 240 Microbolometers to those countries and see how much security theatre is presentI hope you like prison food, that’s all I can sayFor those interested, China has been legally importing and using French ULIS Microbolometers for many years

author: Halfdead
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2019, 06:44:32 pm
content: Quote from: OwO on July 16, 2019, 04:21:01 pmThis right here, it's another example of the illusion of security.

author: hendorog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2019, 07:23:53 pm
content: Where in the ITAR docs does it state 9Hz cameras are controlled items?I thought it was a more complex situation involving pixel rate- so it depends on resolution and refresh rate.It would be good to know what the facts of the situation are.

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2019, 07:34:29 pm
content: Just Google thermal camera export regulations. All you need to know is in the public domain to help exporters.The terms of interest will be: ITAR , EAR, ECCN, BIS and Wassenaar as ITAR is only a part of the regulatory system applicable to thermal imaging equipment. I have provided exact references to the dual use technology regulations previously on this forum so it is out there to be found with GoogleThe ECCN list I use is here. It provides the ECN used in export controls. Section 6 covers thermal imaging as well as other sensor technologies.https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/812555/UK_strategic_export_control_lists_20190630.pdf10 seconds of Googling also brought up guidance from a company to help customers understand export controls. FLIR offer similar help to potential buyers of their products. There are the Official Government web sites that cover your countries export controls on dual use technology as well. It is best to check your own counties regulations as some countries are embargoed by local Governments and not internationally. The UK has some dual use technology embargoed countries in addition to the published US/European lists.https://blackthorneit.com/controlled-exportsFraser

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2019, 07:54:40 pm
content: The UK guidance for UK exporters of technologyhttps://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/341998/10-668-codepractice-compliance.pdfMore guidance and explanation here...https://www.sierraolympic.com/images/uploads/documents/SOTI_Export_Guidelines_140701_v02.pdfExport controls are so easy to research with Google as Governments want exporters and customers to understand the regulation and responsibilities.Fraser

author: hendorog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2019, 08:19:42 pm
content: Quote from: Fraser on July 16, 2019, 07:34:29 pmThanks Fraser. I have looked several times for this information in the past and have not succeeded.I haven't found your post about the subject yet, but I did find something else which was useful.I think a sticky post summarising all of this would be useful.The signal to noise is very low when searching as everyone parrots the same thing without linking to the source documents.It seems the situation has improved and some corporate sites have good information now though.This post has links to docs, and did lead me to a mention of 9Hz in a govt document (for the first time!):https://www.eevblog.com/forum/thermal-imaging/export-of-thermal-imagers/msg1321057/#msg1321057Which references this document (Wassenaar )https://www.wassenaar.org/app/uploads/2018/12/WA-DOC-18-PUB-001-Public-Docs-Vol-II-2018-List-of-DU-Goods-and-Technologies-and-Munitions-List-Dec-18.pdfWhich states on page 114:QuoteSo yep, it is just as simple as needing a license for cameras with a frame rate greater than 9Hz for Wassenaar.But :- the plot thickens according to:https://www.oemcameras.com/export_conditionsSo :- Since I am in an STA country and am not a military user and will not be re-exporting it seems that I would not need a license anyway.QuoteUnless :- The camera is listed in the USML for ITAR, which then requires a license for all destinations.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2019, 08:33:52 pm
content: While many of the restrictions on export technology are relatively easy to Google and find, others are somewhat intentionally obscure. The purpose I believe is to not provide direction to undesired parties about fruitful areas of research. Thus it is not always easy to avoid the export drama that Fraser correctly says should be avoided. For this reason those who plan to export advanced technology of any sort are well advised to consult an export technology expert for advise and assistance. Due to bickering between various interested parties in this area, even this is not a complete warranty of safety, but can provide evidence of a good faith effort towards compliance.If you set out to deliberately skirt the rules you must be prepared for the potentially very unpleasant consequences. Particularly if you are in one of the more top driven countries which also have reasons and interests in controlling technology movement.

author: IwuzBornanerd
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2019, 08:46:13 pm
content: Quote from: hendorog on July 16, 2019, 08:19:42 pmI second that motion! Gee, why hasn't that been done yet?Fraser made a thread a while ago that might be just the thing for that:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/thermal-imaging/the-challenges-of-discussing-thermal-imaging-technology-on-a-public-forum-%28/

author: hendorog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2019, 09:26:38 pm
content: Quote from: CatalinaWOW on July 16, 2019, 08:33:52 pmAgree, but I don't think the system was engineered to be this bad. More likely they stumbled into this situation which has now become convenient. Bureaucrats with a mandate will keep layering rules upon rules until the system is perfect - but perfectly impossible to function.Clarity in the rules is the number one priority in stopping people from skirting them. It is pretty hard to obey a law which is not understood - exhibit A being our own national sport: Rugby football

author: Vipitis
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 19, 2019, 10:39:16 am
content: While it may be a delicate topic, I have found myself looking through it a few times. It took 3 people reassuring me to just not care that much. If you are not the target of said regulations there won't be much of a follow-up. The OP especially detailed the very usecase that wants to be prevented. If you look through the Twitter #OSINT community you can find extraordinary stories with proof of how high end weapon systems end up in the wrong hands. And you see the damage they cause.It would still be an interesting project for a rocket hobbyist to build a infrared seeker These already exist since the late 40s and are not using our advanced and small formfactor microbolometers. As far as the <9hz present on the Lepton, the Seek cameras have shown to go past 15hz on a powerful phone. The thermal time constant and latency can be far more important than framerate. I believe that synchronizing multiple cameras to go perfectly in between is not possible to achieve consistently. Most cooled cameras allow for an external trigger to sync, yet I have seen uncooled LWIR cameras with those options aswell.

author: Bill W
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 21, 2019, 04:24:21 pm
content: Quote from: hendorog on July 16, 2019, 08:19:42 pmWhat you have found there is an exporter with an open licence to export to STA countries. They will conduct some due diligence on you (Aussie hobbyist = OK) and a license condition may well include listing all shipments in a monthly report to the US export administration. Could be direct, or could be through FLIR.All well and good as long as your serial number camera does not turn up in a cave in Afghanistan.If it does, you will get a visit.Bill

author: hendorog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2019, 01:13:41 am
content: Quote from: Bill W on July 21, 2019, 04:24:21 pmThanks - I am not an Aussie hobbyist FWIW.I doubt an ordinary US company has much capacity to conduct due diligence on a foreigner? More likely that would be a requirement to fill out this form.And I noted earlier the condition to not re-export. That has been a requirement in many US export forms I've had to complete. Lets not go down the 'stories about people who broke the US export rules' path. That's been done to death already.

author: Ben321
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2019, 08:37:17 pm
content: It's actually real easy to make a framerate doubler for these. And your latency (delay between capturing a frame, and showing or otherwise using the frame) is only half of a frame at its input framerate (or one frame at its output framerate). Here's a simple diagram showing how it works.And because the original framerate is assumed to be about 8fps (the closest integer framerate that fits the ITAR requirement of <9fps), that means that your doubled framerate is 16fps, and the latency is only 0.0625 seconds.I'm not 100% sure, but I'm guessing that specs like that MIGHT work for a heat-seeking missile, thus making that stupid <9fps ITAR rule 100% obsolete. However, a country or other entity with resources to build an entire missile, is not going to be using a cheap FLIR-one to build their missile, because more likely they will just build the thing from the ground up with the required specs, including a specially built thermal imaging sensor just for heat seeking (again making that stupid ITAR rule 100% obsolete).

author: agiorgitis
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2019, 10:03:07 am
content: I don't think a criminal or a terrorist is able to buy a $1M missile from his friendly local weapon distributor, but rely on a cheap thermal camera to make a DIY thermal seek missile.The guys who want to buy a 30hz or 60hz camera know where to buy it from, no matter where they are on earth.Maybe we should ask them to show us how to hack the 9hz cameras into 30hz, rather than the opposite.