How long does it take you to solder projects by hand on a proto-board? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: ballsystemlord
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2024, 05:12:10 pm
content: Hello,Assuming you're using a generic proto-board (i.e. where you have to run wire to each through-hole), and you're soldering in an 8-pin DIP, a potentiometer, and a cap with associated wiring, about how long would it take you to do it?I ask because it took me slightly over an hour. Granted, I had to write up a schematic, gather everything, hand strip the wire, and then put it all together. But it seems to me that it's taking me rather a long time to do soldering. I'm not the fastest in the world at anything, and I'll probably improve in speed as I get more practice in, but I'm curious about how fast other people are.Thanks!

author: Grandchuck
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2024, 05:41:52 pm
content: I would need more detail but 15 minutes or so?

author: shapirus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2024, 05:48:51 pm
content: Yeah it takes a lot. Not sure of exact figure, but that's a lot of time. Much of it is consumed by stripping the wires (and tinning them, if the wire isn't pre-tinned). Speaking of which, I usethiswire with PTFE insulation. It's really excellent: pre-tinned multi-strand core, where the strands have just the right thickness; insulation is a proper heat-resistant PTFE and is reasonably easy to strip. Perfect for protoboards. I got two AWG sizes: 34 and 28, and these cover pretty much everything that a protoboard needs. Anything thicker usually requires an altogether different wire anyway.Another time-consuming issue is perfectionism. Making the assembled board look good takes some time.Then, washing.OTOH, time can be saved by printing the schematic and then marking the parts and wires that have been soldered on paper to avoid mistakes and make it easier to plan what to solder next.An hour or so sounds reasonable for what you described. May take less when you have all the parts handy and the schematic is ready.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2024, 06:36:11 pm
content: Quote from: ballsystemlord on June 21, 2024, 05:12:10 pmStart by timing each operation, so the sum of the times adds up to the total elapsed time. Then find a way of minimising the longest time.There's no use in us speculating, sinceourtimesinks might be different toyours.

author: ballsystemlord
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2024, 07:03:24 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on June 21, 2024, 06:36:11 pmThe longest time spent was the self loathing over bumping the potentiometer with the soldering iron's side.Actually, it was probably the schematic write-up and/or circuit assembly step. I triple checked everything and re-read the datasheet. Nothing like soldering a circuit, powering it up, and watching the smoke leave the $20 IC you just bought.But that's a great idea and I'll do it in the future.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2024, 07:05:56 pm
content: Quote from: ballsystemlord on June 21, 2024, 05:12:10 pmOne hint would be to avoid the crazy, weird protoboard with no connections on it, and look for stripboard instead. Stripboard makes things much faster as you need fewer, or even none at all, jump wires to make connections between components.Examples of such proto-boards:https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/schmalztech,-llc/ST-PROTO-2-3/16400249https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/busboard-prototype-systems-ltd./ST1/19200400You should be able to find examples of such boards from many sources.

author: RoGeorge
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2024, 07:13:38 pm
content: Building on perfboards is one of the most time consuming prototyping techniques in my experience.Point to point wiring is tedious. The overall time spent can easily add up to 10 minutes per each soldering point. 1-2 hours is not unusual for a simple circuit like yours, especially if it's a one off and you treat it like it would be a permanent build that has to last forever.Assembling on a PCB is much faster.

author: Buriedcode
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2024, 07:38:31 pm
content: DependsI tend to use stripboard unless its really simple where a few point-to-point wires won't take longer than a few jumper links, and so I use eagle to design the stripboard layout first. Once that is done, and I have all the parts to hand, not long. Through-hole takes longer just because you're constantly flipping the board over, trimming leads, bending leads, so I try to use as many SMD passives on stripboard as possible, its neater and speeds things up a fair bit.That said, it does always seem to take me longer than I expect. A fairly small prototype (65x95mm stripboard) took a good three hours to populate with mixed TH and SMD, but it was pretty dense. A proprerly manufacturer PCB with mostly SMD is much quicker.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2024, 07:45:27 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on June 21, 2024, 07:05:56 pmOverall I find stripboard to be a pain; I spend too much time planning where to cut tracks.You might like to consider the ones illustrated below. I don't consider them perfect, but at least there are many types available. FFI, see the bottom ofhttps://entertaininghacks.wordpress.com/2020/07/22/prototyping-circuits-easy-cheap-fast-reliable-techniques/

author: shapirus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2024, 07:57:05 pm
content: Quote from: Buriedcode on June 21, 2024, 07:38:31 pmHomemade PCBs are a viable option too. When the number of components and interconnects reaches a certain point, they will be quicker and way less tedious and error-prone to assemble than perfboards, which can easily justify them even for one-off builds.Designing a PCB can be a satisfying experience on its own as well.

author: brucehoult
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2024, 12:41:53 am
content: I haven't done a lot of protoboards (and mostly using Freetronics' Arduino shield boards (https://www.freetronics.com.au/products/protoshield-basic).I would say they are very consuming of human labour, but even if you spend a couple of hours that's still far less elapsed time from idea to working prototype than ordering a PCB from an online service.Maybe some kind of home made PCB where you use some kind of pen (or printer?) to draw the traces you want would be faster. I think such things exist but I haven't tried them.I mostly use excess leads from components (resistors, transistors) to do the wiring, making each end just a simple through hole solder to keep it in place, then bend the lead to what it needs to connect to, solder, and trim off the excess (or in the other order). The cut off excess can also be used for other connections.It's stiff and self-supporting, but easy to bend, and tends to stay in the position you bend it to while you solder it.I only ocassionally need to slip a little insulation over the wire, if it crosses another one.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2024, 12:57:51 am
content: The hurrier I go, the behinder I get. If you want to compare, me soldering in not so ideal circumstances.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2024, 01:05:54 am
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on June 22, 2024, 12:57:51 amThere is a British saying for that: "More haste, less speed."

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2024, 01:10:10 am
content: Quote from: ballsystemlord on June 21, 2024, 05:12:10 pmI honestly don't think an hour is very long for a one-off project from start to finish. In fact, it seems rather rapid.It's not like being on a production line, where everything is lined up and ready to go (like mise-en-place in cooking), where all your tools are on the bench and readily to hand, and all the steps are known and require no pause for thought.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2024, 03:55:41 am
content: It... depends?

author: pqass
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2024, 07:18:52 am
content: For ten or less components, 20 minutes seems reasonable (eg. 555 oscillator) if you have an idea of the general layout ahead of time. But then I've had practice.I'm a huge fan of bare proto-board vs strip-board or etched PCB (for prototyping).PROS:spontaneous design/build, no waiting,minimal use of solder; less globs, cleaner (vs strip-board),no cutting strips; making sure there's no connection between,can be "multi-layer" or dense connectivity,can modify design without restarting from scratch,mechanically sturdy, reliable (vs bread-board),can be disassembled into parts for reuse.CONS:tedious to join every connection but can get faster over time,worthwhile for just one-ofs, not viable for multiple copies,no ground plane.See my handiworkhereandhere. Orthisvery clean looking SBC (not mine).

author: Messtechniker
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2024, 07:47:41 am
content: Before heating up the soldering iron, I often optimisethe perfboard component layout with the help of "Lochmaster"from here:https://www.electronic-software-shop.com/lng/en/electronic-software/lochmaster-40.htmlSaves a lot of time de-soldering and rearranging the components

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2024, 07:56:41 am
content: I usually do 1 of the following.- Dead-bug the circuit- Make a PCB for it and wait until that arrives- Hack an existing PCB so i can re-use it for the circuit i need.- Use a breadboardIt's very rare that i use a proto-board/Veroboard for anything.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2024, 08:22:13 am
content: Quote from: ballsystemlord on June 21, 2024, 05:12:10 pmI'd say it would take me 15 to 20 minutes. I can highly recommend using enamel wire. This can be stripped by tinning it using a soldering iron and it is much thinner compared to insulated wire. Enamel wire is available in colors as well but most I'm using is old stuff sources from old transformers I unwound when I was still a kid (IOW: I have a huge stock of enamel wire).At one of my employers it was custom to build prototypes using thin enamel wire because it worked so quick. We used to call enamel wire 'monkey hair'. Enamel wire is surprisingly robust as well. Even with a bunch of boards stacked in a drawer, the prototypes would still be intact after a long time.

author: jonovid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2024, 08:27:08 am
content: the general layout planning takes a day or maybe a weekend then the time breadboarding re-testing 2or 3 hours and then about 30 minutes soidering.hardware enclosure fabrication when I get around to it, a weekendconsuming time is not an issue here this is not a race, this is Australia

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2024, 08:31:53 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on June 22, 2024, 08:22:13 amImportant caveat about enameled wire: not all enameled wire works that way! There are different types of enamel, and some are “solderable” (meaning that no mechanical or chemical stripping is required, and can be stripped by heating with solder), others are not. And the fumes are nasty, so you need ventilation. Additionally, the temperatures needed to burn through solderable enamel are significantly higher than recommended soldering temperatures, so don’t expect it to burn off at your usual ~320-350°C.Special low-temperature solderable enameled wire exists, but is hard to find.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2024, 08:53:55 am
content: Well, most of the older enamel wire I have strips just fine with the iron set to 330 degrees. I do have some newer wire (specifically for prototyping) which needs the iron to be at 340 degrees.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2024, 08:57:47 am
content: Quote from: tooki on June 22, 2024, 08:31:53 amThat probably explains why I've never had sufficient success with it, and have just used ordinary hookup wire or wirewrap wire >50 years old now, IIRC offcuts from the installations at London Air Traffic Control Centre.I remember being taken up into the control centre at the top of the control tower at Heathrow, and being warned not to hit a low-down switch with my knee. And being appalled at how cables were strung around in the equipment rooms. How times change

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2024, 09:08:38 am
content: Quote from: tggzzz on June 22, 2024, 08:57:47 amMe neither, in that constantly changing the soldering iron temperature is too inconvenient, and I don’t want to use a crazy high temperature otherwise.I haven’t had a need to protoboard anything recently, but at work, I found an old “wiring pen”, whose enameled wire is almost guaranteed to be the low-temp solderable stuff. Maybe I’ll have to experiment with it for fun.Quote from: tggzzz on June 22, 2024, 08:57:47 amA friend of mine recently started working at the Zurich ops center of the Swiss ATC operator, Skyguide. Maybe he can get me a tour sometime.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2024, 09:15:13 am
content: Quote from: tooki on June 22, 2024, 09:08:38 amOh, I remember those! I tried one once, and it didn't work with my only soldering iron, a 1970s 25W Antex poker. Naturally I still have that, and it works apart from the cable being stiff anf unplasticised.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2024, 09:53:15 am
content: Make sure to have a big blob of tin on the tip though when stripping enamel wire, otherwise it won't work very well. You really need to stick the wire inside the blod and the enamel will melt away nicely. Especially with thicker enamel wire, the copper will 'suck' the heat away quickly so you need to make sure to have the best heat transfer between the iron and the wire.

author: EPAIII
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2024, 10:07:22 am
content: So start with circuits that use $0.20 ICs.Quote from: ballsystemlord on June 21, 2024, 07:03:24 pm

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2024, 10:24:29 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on June 22, 2024, 09:53:15 amBe aware that burning off the enamel (actually Polyurethane) insulation evolves a certain amount of nasty toxic fumes, including Cyanide and so requires decent ventilation. This was a bit of an issue with the old Verowire wiring system (still sold all these years later!)...https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/bread-board-backers/msg5318800/#msg5318800

author: ballsystemlord
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2024, 10:24:05 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on June 22, 2024, 08:31:53 amIf it makes a difference to anyone, here's the Japanese enameled wire spec which is used today:https://forum.allaboutcircuits.com/ubs/japanese-magnet-wire-spec.1829/You can find Chinese sellers that reference that spec when specifying what the enameled wire they sell is rated at.For example:https://www.fd-enameledwire.com/news/the-difference-between-qa-and-qz-enameled-wire-meaning-of-qaqz-in-enameled-wire.htmlManufacturers today seem to prefer the higher temp wire because then they can use smaller gauge wire for the same application -- or so it seems based on the weight and size of the older and newer motors to which I have been exposed.But back to your question. You can use that info to find pretty much any wire that you'd like. For example, here's 130C wire with a diameter of 1.2mm and 10m in length or 0.8mm/100m bulk (~$4 / ~$26 USD before S&H and tax):https://www.aliexpress.us/item/2251832586344633.htmlhttps://www.aliexpress.us/item/3256805285295618.htmlGranted, I shouldn't be driving my question further off topic, but I thought you'd appreciate the effort.BSL