How to deal with an uncooperative production team? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Pack34
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2017, 10:37:05 pm
content: I work at a small instrument manufacturer and I've been having an extremely difficult year.It takes way too long to build our products so I made an automated application in MATLAB to reduce build times from days to minutes. I've also updated designs to be more reliable and flagged quality issues from our PCB assembler. They can't even provide capability information because they outsource it overseas and didn't know.The automated tools were never used, updated designs never ordered, and they refuse to audit the supplier or even do some test runs with someone else.Now it looks like I'm getting into some hot water and they refuse to provide any information regarding yields or issues.Has anyone else been in a similar situation?

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2017, 11:00:57 pm
content: You're probably working the problem in the wrong direction.If you have management authority over the team (i.e. you are above them in the chain of command--not sideways--and they report up to you), then you can manage that team and get them to do what you want.If you are not in their management chain, but are sideways, or in a different department, or even junior to their manager, then you are fighting a losing battle trying to get them to do your bidding and you should choose a different strategy. What you have to do is manage upwards through your management until you find a point of convergence with their management ladder (e.g. the VP of product delivery or operations or whatever), and then get the necessary requirements to descend down on the production department from above.The way you do this is to construct solid business arguments about the problem (cost, quality, time) and show how this impacts the bottom line. Get these arguments coherently expressed to someone high enough in management to appreciate them and then you will see results.But don't try to fight the battle yourself as a foot soldier in the trenches. Infantrymen get shot at.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2017, 11:02:38 pm
content: There's a problem with pronouns like 'they'. Which 'they'? Your in-house people or your suppliers?If your in-house people don't want process improvement, it's time for you to look for job improvement. There are companies, like GE, where process improvement is never complete. It goes on continually under their 6-Sigma program. It's amazing the kinds of things that are institutionalized (we always did it that way) and can be removed or replaced. Look for a company with an active QC or 6-Sigma program.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2017, 11:05:35 pm
content: One other thought: Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig.

author: Pack34
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2017, 11:05:53 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on December 27, 2017, 11:00:57 pmThe production team reports to the VP of Operations. I was the engineering manager and reported directly to the CEO. I took my concerns to the CEO and was told to stop complaining.

author: Pack34
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2017, 11:08:38 pm
content: Quote from: rstofer on December 27, 2017, 11:02:38 pmThe only They that's directed outside the organization was about the Assembly House's PCB capabilities. The VP Ops seems to be all about process but only stuff he directly controls. Anything from outside his fiefdom gets roadblocked.

author: Pack34
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2017, 11:11:24 pm
content: Quote from: blueskull on December 27, 2017, 11:08:58 pmThe problem is that they screw up and I get burned for it.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2017, 11:29:04 pm
content: Find another job. Your skills and input aren't valued so it's time to find a place where they are.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2017, 12:01:48 am
content: Probably only way to make progress is work out and document exactly how much money they are wasting and how it could be improved, and present it to top management.

author: jpanhalt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2017, 12:05:32 am
content: Quote from: Pack34 on December 27, 2017, 11:05:53 pmTime to find a new job.

author: TerraHertz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2017, 12:06:09 am
content: Keep a detailed diary. What problems you recognized, what solutions you proposed and to whom, what were the results.This should include business cost/benefits, so far as you are able. It's such a shame audio recordings are illegal, despite being so easy to make.Your CEO's "stop complaining" suggests the CEO is either working with incomplete/biased information, or incompetent. This can easily be due to others in the company structure covering their arses, and being better at social engineering than you, the actual engineer.Make sure the CEO has a correct understanding of the situation. Give it to him in writing, with easily comprehensible diagrams.If you can present the CEO with incontestable facts that support your position, and you still get that 'stop complaining', then leave. Enjoy watching the company burn down (metaphorically speaking) due to the cascading incompetence, while you are comfortable in knowing you did your best and it's not your fault.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2017, 12:33:09 am
content: Quote from: Pack34 on December 27, 2017, 11:11:24 pmI think I used to work for that company!I became "an enemy of the people" for suggesting simple improvements to processes, which would have saved a lot of time & money.The silly thing is that they raved on about ISO 9000, whilst still doing their best to build errors into each unit they made.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2017, 12:49:30 am
content: Quote from: jpanhalt on December 28, 2017, 12:05:32 amI agree. Just reading the story makes me want to quit that job instantly and I'm not even working there! Some people are so set in doing things in inefficient ways they don't even realise it. I like CNBC's 'The Profit' in which a business man tries for fix companies. This series features businesses with the exact same problem the OP is describing.

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2017, 12:54:25 am
content: So take the product and go make your own.If the company is so confident in their business plan that they don't need your input, they'll do fine without you.If your concerns are spot on, you'll kill them in competition.That's how business works.Issues like copyright and IP rights are small -- you have a right to work (give or take local laws), and since you (presumably) have intimate knowledge of the product, you know exactly what changes are needed to avoid a lawsuit.Lawsuits, by the way, are just another operating cost; factor that into your business plan. Prepare for the worst, hope for the best! (On that note, business insurance covers expensesand actionssuch as these -- it's legal coverage for you and your company, and worth shopping for if you go ahead with this.)Tim

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2017, 01:03:25 am
content: Quote from: Pack34 on December 27, 2017, 10:37:05 pmMight it be that there are external factors like your boss and the assembly place owner being old friends ( or the latter having some dirt on the former..!)

author: Electro Detective
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2017, 01:30:16 am
content: Drop the concerned employee/production hero thing,grab your paycheck every week and'leave the company to their own devices'It's their money, their decision making, their profit or loss,and they are making it quite clear it's not your business, concern nor problemEnjoy the 'hired help' benefits of mediocre wages, sleeping easyand enjoying weekends.

author: SL4P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2017, 02:27:52 am
content: The bottom line to the CEO and directors/shareholders is that ‘production’ make products -> sales -> moneyThey’re a profit centre.Engineering is the opposite... a cost centre.You need to explain the relationship and benefits of the senior managers working the two together.The VP operations needs to be “spoken to” by the CEO.

author: daqq
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2017, 07:11:50 am
content: I'd say that instead of trying to fix the horrible mess you should just leave, unless you have severe reasons not to. Since even the CEO has this kind of attitude, I'd say that the problem is embedded deep within the company culture.It might be possible to fix it, eventually, after lots of stress, conflict etc. but you should ask yourself whether it is worth it.

author: Jeroen3
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2017, 08:11:40 am
content: Quote from: Pack34 on December 27, 2017, 10:37:05 pmWhat are you hired for?

author: Seekonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2017, 10:36:52 am
content: I worked for a place that was ISO9000. Many products used the same circuit board. They would be just stuffed with different components. To pull parts to build a prototype I had to create a product number. Sometimes a customer would call trying to rush a shipment. I would be at my desk still working on the prototype. Production would come in all mad with a box of failed modules and say my design didn't work. They managed to build and test the product using preliminary parts list another products test procedure.Engineering did not have to sign off on a product before it went into production. Never could change that. And I was the ISO auditor! Repeatedly told to back off on the issue by management.

author: Pack34
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2017, 11:11:51 am
content: Quote from: Jeroen3 on December 28, 2017, 08:11:40 amI was hired to fill the responsibilities of the VP-ENG/ENG-MGR and lead EE. Hardware, Firmware, and FPGA.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2017, 12:20:16 pm
content: Quote from: Pack34 on December 27, 2017, 11:05:53 pmTime to move shop.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2017, 12:43:45 pm
content: Quote from: Pack34 on December 27, 2017, 11:05:53 pmIf you can't interest the CEO in the problems then either you are not explaining it right, or the problems are not as significant as you think they are, or the CEO is incompetent.For example, if you have data showing excessive costs (of missed shipment dates, of warranty rework on customer returns, on internal costs of wasted time) and these don't interest the CEO, then you should probably be looking for another job.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2017, 12:51:57 pm
content: If you want to piss on the party, go to the CEO with a cost saving via outsourcing it directly. He/she won't ignore anything that affects the bottom line.Start the ball rolling then walk away from the company while it descends into a pile of shit, leaving existing production team to manage it all.Then buy their assets from them when they are cash desperate for virtually nothing after non delivery.Then start a new company and production.Then hire the old CEO as your personal bitch.This is how the company I currently work for got off the ground

author: mc172
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2017, 01:36:45 pm
content: Quote from: rstofer on December 27, 2017, 11:02:38 pmSix Sigma is a Ponzi scheme. I have never experienced this being implemented correctly. It always seems to end up with some muppet whose sole purpose in life is to convince the management that he should remain on a ridiculous salary or even employed.One bloke I had to work with, who was a 6 Sigma ninja warrior, said that he had improved the efficiency of production of a particular product by reducing the amount of distance it had to travel around the building. He said he had reduced it to something like 24 metres. The product had to go from one side of the building to the other (goods in to goods out), absolute minimum distance. The building was over 100 metres long. Before his intervention it left the building at the same end that it arrived at.All the while, the rest of the manufacturing process was not made any more efficient.Another Six Sigma nutcase at another company said it would be more efficient if we cease production for six months while we dig up the floor and fit a complicated conveyor belt type thing on rails to move around some military trucks on an assembly line, where the trucks arrive driveable and leave driveable. They are at no point in their assembly, not driveable. You can just drive them around the building. But nope, this is more efficient.Anyway... OP, be mindful that people don't like to be proven wrong. I have tried to go to CEOs and others with hard evidence, scientific facts etc. pertaining to why something won't work or isn't more efficient... They mostly don't want to know. I've even been told by a CEO that I don't know what I'm talking about when it comes to a mains transformer because my job is to design electronics not to manage the site facilities.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2017, 02:22:30 pm
content: Six sigma survivor here as well. Agree entirely.

author: Pack34
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2017, 07:38:58 pm
content: Quote from: mc172 on December 28, 2017, 01:36:45 pmI just learned this one out the hard way. We hired a consultant EE that the CEO knows. It's been two months and he's still yet to have a working breakout board for new sensor. It's just a handful of capacitors, three regulators, and the 64pin BGA sensor.I raised concerns that perhaps we're asking him to do something that he's not comfortable with. Maybe he's an FPGA guy and just isn't seasoned in layout or something. I was told by the CEO that a criticism on this consultant is a criticism on him.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2017, 07:50:10 pm
content: Quote from: Pack34 on December 28, 2017, 07:38:58 pmOld proverb: "There's none so deaf as them's won't hear".For whatever reasons, right or wrong, you are not going to win. Your team role is "corporate scapegoat".Time to leave, but don't leave in a panic. Do your best to make sure that the grass on the other side of the fence is greener when you are standing in it.

author: Nusa
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2017, 08:43:19 pm
content: The title is misleading. If your description is correct, the production team is following the correct master, which is not you. Your problems are at the management level, which you cannot bypass.Previous responses have laid out your options, although I don't agree with most of the revenge-based suggestions.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2017, 09:02:39 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on December 28, 2017, 02:22:30 pmI also agree, to an extent. I nearly quit my job for being forced to take the week long program and dealing with all the statistics and crap. However...There is no process that is minimal, particularly those dealing with people. Some processes are institutionalized and can be a great opportunity for reducton. Especially when the money to implement the projects is essentially unlimited. Many process improvements are free.Here's a process:Employee wants to use a Medical Reserved parking space due to a recent injury. This is not a permanent requirement for which Handicap spaces are available.Employee visits company nurse who agreesNurse writes a memo to Facilities to issue a pass.Facilites reviews the request and writes a memo to Security to issue the pass.Security issues the pass.Here's the revised process:Employee stops by Security and gets the pass. This works because all employees are adults.There are literally hundreds of these processes where change actually improves the work environment, cost no money to implement and reduce costs although that may be hard to show. The work always got done, there is no headcount reduction so costs weren't really reduced. But if you find enough of these things, somebody will be out the door and costs will be reduced. That's the real goal of Six Sigma. It has little to do with quality and much to do with cost reduction.I like these process improvement projects because they result in less work. They result in the removal of institutional bureaucracy and, when in my job function, allow me to get on with the work and avoid all the nonsense.I'm still not a fan of statistics or the QC aspects of Six Sigma but I do like the way the program allows, even encourages, me to change processes. Mine or someone else's.Want to get rid of somebody? Just start a Sig Sigma project to prove their work is redundant and unnecessary. Or show cost savings of just outsourcing their work. Remember, there are no retirement costs for outsourcing. This only applies to companies with defined benefits plans..."Core Competency" can be used to remove entire departments. If a department doesn't relate directly to the product, outsource it. It wasn't a core competency.That's kind of ruthless! Well, yes, but I would rather be the surviving 'idea guy' than one of the ones thrown under the bus.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2017, 09:22:45 pm
content: I've run into situations where any costs not actually on a bill would be ignored, even though they add up to much bigger numbers than what would be on the bill. An example would be having all sorts of meetings and wasting much time on a problem which would be easily solved by spending a relatively small amount of money or by just cutting your losses. The employees would get paid anyway, so there's no actual bill, but that obviously doesn't mean the time spent came free. Meeting culture just exacerbates the problem, as the time wasted increases almost exponentially.I suspect it has to do with the former being already budgeted and therefore without much risk, while the latter might attract attention and requires explanation. It's frustrating to see a lot of time and money wasted because of this, only to be hounded to compensate the wasted resources later.

author: mc172
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2017, 10:03:25 pm
content: If Six Sigma is about reducing cost and not so much QC then why all thatabout 1.5 sigma shift and 3.4 in a billion failure rate etc?Seems to me like one of those diet pills, roll up whatever sells more into a nice colourful package.I can't quote easily on my dog and bone but the bit about the security guard... That's just common sense and from working with other people we all know you can't teach that, so where does Six Sigma come into that other than a load of buzzwords?I've come up with my own scheme. It's called Eight Epsilon and is all about QC, reducing cost and all about how the total sum of your company can be improved as a whole. The first secret can be taught on a week-long course at a cost of £1,000 per person. You can even become an Eight Epsilon Grand Master by teaching 2 people per year to become Eight Epsilon ninjas and forwarding a nice bit of commission to Eight Epsilon.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2017, 10:34:05 pm
content: That's as close to the mark as you get. Six Sigma was about selling an ideology to people.We're going through the latest fad at the moment: "continuous improvement" / kaizen / whatever it's called now etc. The first mistake was not thinking and immediately finding a consultancy who could help guide the implementation, for a capped cost of course. 2,356 hours of meetings later (no shit - that's the time and cash burned on it). I reckon that's at least 5 years of delivery improvements that will be required to offset the implementation.The previous methodology was applied to silence the critics like myself. Still getting a fad wad of cash every month so meh.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2017, 11:05:15 pm
content: You know, I've faced similar situation. We were discussion production schedule for a product. Out of the blue, I wasn't prepared. I told them I need a few days to come up with a number, on how much time it will take to order everything.And there was the guy, who is a manger, understands IT but dumb in electronics as a rock."Oh, it cannot take days, I'm doing something wrong, just upload the BOM to Octopart and it will only be 5 minutes." -the guy said, in front of two managers and others, who immediately joined, that I should just do that, maybe even right now."It doesn't work like that"You know, what I should have said?"F*ck off. You have no idea what you are talking about, stop believing that you know how to do my job better than me." They don't know. The BOM has several components, which are not sold from Farnell Digikey Mouser, not stocked anywhere, and the only way to know how much time it takes is to write emails asking for quote, and call people to make them answer the email as soon as possible. It takes time. Days. If you ever did that, you know it well.Instead I was made to look like a fool. So yeah, I've been in a situation like this. It is not plesant, in fact infuriating.Maybe you should ask first, if there is any way to improve production. Maybe they dont automate it, because it would mean that poor old Joe would be fired, because 95% of his job is doing this production, while the other 5% is vital, and only he has the skill to do it. Maybe people just take it badly, when you (without the authority) are trying to tell them how to do their job.

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 28, 2017, 11:47:15 pm
content: Look at the psychology of the production team. It's a totally different world from engineering.They constantly fear for their ranking/status and employment, so eliminating or reducing the work needed causes a backlash, a rebellion. The guy who had an important task- now has nothing to do, so they create drama.People like routine on the Production floor and do not think for themselves because they are to follow the law, the Quality System, instead.You bring in a new process or method, everyone is afraid to screw up and get in trouble.It all adds up to a stubborn lot.I deal with it by making everyone feel important and involved, like an episode of "dancing with the stars".And if they just won't budge, I'll farm out the testing to a contract manufacturer and bypass Production entirely. That usually gets their attention.

author: GreyWoolfe
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 29, 2017, 12:29:37 am
content: Quote from: mc172 on December 28, 2017, 01:36:45 pmThose people are a lot like seagull managers: they fly in, sh*t on everything and fly back out. Myself and a fellow co worker had to deal with one of these goofballs-a 6 Sigma Green Belt. She decided that she could reduce the number of service calls for issues with the inventory management system deployed in our program by 90%. 6 months of conference calls, conference calls to set up more important conference calls, many emails looking for information and many other emails summing up the info seeking emails, complete with charts and spreadsheets. At the end of all of this mind numbing, time wasting nonsense, the % reduction in service calls was exactly zero. She never could factor in the stupidity of the people making the errors and then calling in service calls to fix their screw ups. The final point to this monumental exercise in futility was that we had to provide a new inventory management system anyway to support the new contract we won with our client so anything she could have come up with would have been a moot point. This was implemented 6 months after she flew back out and was already in process when she flew in.I have learned that, in my company, if there is a way to create an impediment to allow us field service techs to do our job more efficiently, someone will create and implement it, on both the hardware and software fronts. It's exciting to be the face of the company to our clients, resolving their issues and yet be in the bottom of the bowl, circling the drain.

author: Pack34
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 29, 2017, 12:40:16 am
content: Quote from: Nusa on December 28, 2017, 08:43:19 pmOne of the big stickler problems though is that they're doing their job poorly which reflects bad on me because I'm responsible for the designs. There's a glaring quality problem from our PCB manufacturer that I've been photographically documenting when I can sneak back there. Since their refusing to supply engineering with any yield figures or quality metrics they can make up whatever number they want to the higher ups and accuse me of being a poor engineer.They're doing a bad job of converting one design to another (to save money) and marking poor reflow work as "design issues".

author: Electro Detective
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 29, 2017, 01:56:03 am
content: Always make sure the 'poor engineer'has another good paying gig ready in case the company points to the doorTell the next employer why the previous employer will soon flounder in case the previous one slags youas some nasty asses do sometimesYOUR ongoing paycheck is what's importantand if no one wants to listen to improvements you offer for FREE,then let them pay for it to someone else... in Blunder Currencyfwiw an internet search for 'six sigma sucks' brings up some great laughs

author: BrianHG
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 29, 2017, 02:50:14 am
content: Quote from: bd139 on December 28, 2017, 12:51:57 pmLOL, Dejavuu.... Back and forth. ^2...

author: HalFET
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 29, 2017, 07:44:53 am
content: Quote from: vk6zgo on December 28, 2017, 12:33:09 amYes, but it are grandma's authentic high quality errors!I found that small changes can often be pushed through a lot easier from the bottom. Go and sit with the folks assembling the thing during lunch, slightly drop hints to figure out their complaints and grievances, drop in a few suggestions. It's easy for management to ignore you, it's harder to ignore 30 technicians whining about the same thing 😉 And the moment changes are being made you can usually push in the main package.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 29, 2017, 10:04:50 am
content: Quote from: Electro Detective on December 29, 2017, 01:56:03 amYes.QuoteNo. It makes you look like anignoreddisloyal whiner.You can, however, drop hints along the lines of "I don't like the direction the company/division/job is headed, but I can't say more for commercial confidentiality" - but it is better to be leaving "to go to something better" than leaving because you feel you have to.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 29, 2017, 10:10:05 am
content: I believe in honesty when I leave a place. They know that which is why I’m still working thereWhen you get a senior position, MAD is an acceptable strategy.

author: schmitt trigger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 29, 2017, 04:31:35 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on December 28, 2017, 02:22:30 pmI've worked for electronics industry-related facilities for a long time. June 2018 will be my 41th anniversary.If I recall correctly, this preoccupation with quality fads started in the 1970s, when the Japanese really went into high gear kicking the collective asses of whole industries which had been dominated by US or European companies.You name them: Electronics (both products and components), automobiles, steel, heavy machinery, cameras and optical equipment, automation, motorcycles, etc.Similar with what is happening with China nowadays but with one fact: outstanding quality and reliability.There were scores of books and "experts" discussing the "secrets" of Japanese production techniques. And of course, these "experts" could help your company learn those "secrets". For a fee, of course.CEOs and boardrooms adopted en masse mantras like six-sigma, lean manufacturing, Just in Time production, the 5S system, and a host of other names which I've forgotten.Deming's 14 points became mandatory study. We had one manager who would stop people randomly and ask: "What is Deming's 12th point?" Poor of you if you did not answer correctly.But just like the 10 Commandments, the easy part is learning them. Applying them earnestly is the difficult part.

author: 1xrtt
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 29, 2017, 07:55:33 pm
content: Not meant to criticize, just offering an alternate point of view:I would drop any revenge and "me right, they wrong" attitudes. Even if you are, there is a lot of grey area and, wild guessing here, this looks much more related to misunderstandings and/or cultural conflicts. I dare to say it's a failure of everyone, not "they screw up, I got burned".Start by doing a self-review and be honest with yourself. I'll throw some points that come to my mind, reading your posts, but add as you feel necessary: You were hired to do a specific job. You tried to improve things around. Were those within the scope of your job? How did you approach the problems? Specially, how do you approach people to show the problems and your solutions? Were these problems really important to the company? Were the rebuttals you suffered, a result of the way you approach the situation or there can be other issues you don't know about? What could you have done differently, to avoid this "uncooperative" scenario?You may have done this already and came up with the conclusion that your peers and boss are at fault. In this case, I don't have much else to add.Regardless of your future in this company, it's fair game to ask for honest feedback, primarily from the CEO, who you report (reported, you said?) to, and if you feel like, from your peers. Be prepared to hear criticism, be open to their comments, and reflect upon it. Use this as a learning opportunity, for this or for your next employment.A few years ago, the company I work for came up with a new way to charge customers (not the same, but reminds me the Patreon issue) and it was my VP's idea. My manager, who reported to that VP, was very critical of that and he was not afraid to express his opinion to him. Eventually, my manager got sacked, with a measly excuse as "Business requirements".Six months later, it was the VP's time, as his strategy did not deliver as promised, so my manager lost his job for nothing.This is corporate life and right or wrong has little to do with it. As I said, use the learning opportunity to your advantage.Edit: typo

author: John Heath
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 29, 2017, 09:32:48 pm
content: Quote from: Pack34 on December 27, 2017, 10:37:05 pmThere is an expression "a new broom sweeps clean". My policy if given new responsibilities is ears open / mouth shut or at least a month before making decisions. Maybe you rushed it a bit. New management flexing mussels saying there is a new sheriff in town is not the earmarks of seasoned management.

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 29, 2017, 10:42:22 pm
content: Quote from: Pack34 on December 27, 2017, 10:37:05 pmEngineering can have a real nightmare with crappy manufacturing and production.I've experienced a few times where a PCB-assembly contract manufacturer was terrible quality.Management refused to dump them and use another company. I think it was politics, or kickbacks.One contract manufacturer's salesman offered to take to lunch downtown, then to a place with lap dancersI just wanted them to stop warping the PCB's from too much heat. A stripper bar sounded interesting but c'mon.

author: MT
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 29, 2017, 11:14:40 pm
content: Quote from: Pack34 on December 27, 2017, 11:05:53 pmThe indications is clear, (particularly over a longer period of time) if top brass is distancing despite providing facts on their desks they have a different agenda or are just incompetent. Then you have two options, do only what your position requires and be quiet and collect salary or move on for better fishing waters where your efforts are valued and pays off.Dont waste your time on "corporate civil wars" unless you have major stocks/interests in the company.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 29, 2017, 11:24:46 pm
content: Please don't do yourself a huge disservice by getting all wrapped up in self pity about something that's clearly out of your control.You have been doing what you are supposed to do, bringing it to their attention, and that's not working. So I think its time to quietly, and from home, not from work (that's important) look for another job.Don't act unprofessionally.Just keep their problems to yourself after you leave. Find another employer where you can do what you have been trained to do, fix problems. You'll be much happier.Don't get trapped in a dysfunctional situation, just move on.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 29, 2017, 11:39:29 pm
content: Strangely enough, businesses are made of people. Also strangely they are not perfect computers working every instant for the benefit of the company.If you want to effect change you must figure out what is really driving the people involved.The CEO is theoretically in charge of creating most value for the company. Seems simple but how is that value defined. Is it stock price this quarter? Projected profits? Volume of sales? And beyond that, most CEOs are really at least as motivated by maximizing their personal compensation. Again this may have interesting components. It is easy to end up in a situation where cutting the cost of manufacture will result in a loss of bonus. Think of a reward plan that is written in terms of maximizing use of capital.Realize that when you tell a worker that he/she can get the job done in half the time the immediate thing they think is my hours will be cut in half, or half of us will be let go. Not the most motivational carrot for trying a new process.This kind of thinking needs to be applied to everyone involved - including the 6 Sigma expert if one is involved. You will benefit from crafting the story so that your great idea came as a result of your training in 6 Sigma. This isn't a knock on the 6 Sigma concept which actually has a lot of value, but like anything else it is implemented by people and has many flaws in practice.It is a huge and difficult job to do this. But it is great training for running a successful operation or company. It is also something that some people find very rewarding (not just financially) to do. Things you will have to learn and do if you quit this job and strike out on your own. These things are often not appealing to engineers.

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2017, 12:44:06 am
content: Engineering has all of the responsibility, but none of the authority to fix things within corporations.I've never worked under a CEO that isn't corrupt or inept or both, of the 15 people.Official CEO values are "adding value to shareholders", short-term gain, up the numbers now, meeting objectives, organic growth etc. all that MBA bullshit.Nothing at all about oiling the machine.I quit if the stress is too much. There's no a lot else you can do.

author: Seekonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2017, 07:01:20 am
content: We had to write a report on every failure that happened in the field. One day I walked into the test area and saw a couple dozen modules out of the production line that had been unsoldered. This was half a production run. I inquired what this was all about and the tech said test procedure said to change this resistor if it did not pass. A transistor became obsolete 5 years earlier and a substitution had been made. They have have had half the units fail for 5 years without telling engineering. I asked production management to send any failed products off the line to engineering for evaluation. Most products were just thrown in the bin anyway as repair wasn't cost effective. They would have nothing to do with it, didn't want failed units showing up in production reports.A number of a product came back from the field. I found bad solder connection in them all. I wrote it up as a soldering issue. They argued forever that it wasn't. It was a wave solder, a board, a lead and no connection. I don't know what else you would call it. They would never admit to a production problem.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2017, 09:29:12 am
content: Quote from: floobydust on December 30, 2017, 12:44:06 amHit the nail on the head.

author: Smokey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2017, 11:08:38 am
content: Quote from: Pack34 on December 27, 2017, 10:37:05 pmThere's your problem right there. No one likes MATLAB. Try to pitch to your boss that you need to buy MATLAB seats for each test station! HA! Should have used python. Would have been a hero....

author: Pack34
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2017, 12:34:07 pm
content: Quote from: Smokey on December 30, 2017, 11:08:38 amYou can compile it and run it on any computer without extra licenses. Same exact setup the CEO gushed about that a customer provided us for an OEM product we build.Initial version embedded some python. The product is scientific imaging and MATLAB has some canned functions that calculates everything we need. Peak locations, local maxima and minima, FWHM, etc.

author: janoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2017, 01:58:50 pm
content: Quote from: Pack34 on December 30, 2017, 12:34:07 pmThere are other tools (even for that Python) that can do it. But that's beside the point - did you consider that the production guys may not be engineers and not familiar with Matlab? Also the licensing/installation issue point is valid, especially in corporate environment where every piece of software that goes on a workstation has to be 10x vetted and approved before it makes it to the master image and is deployed sometime in the next decade ...So while well intentioned, it probably didn't help your efforts.

author: Pack34
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2017, 02:41:38 am
content: Quote from: janoc on December 30, 2017, 01:58:50 pmUncompiled you just hit play. Compiled you double click an exe. It's all gui based.

author: mlefe
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2017, 08:49:29 pm
content: Quote from: Pack34 on December 27, 2017, 11:05:53 pmYou could try to find someone that thinks like you in Prod and team up with him or her. In this way, you promote the changes from the bottom and with agreement from both sides.More interesting than that is trying to understand why you're not being listened to: is it that you're missing something important in your solutions? Is it that they don't like the way you're approaching them? Did you approach the VP of operations before going to the CEO?

author: TerraHertz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 01, 2018, 05:51:19 am
content: How to deal with an uncooperative production team?Cyanide.Cuts out all the interpersonal and political bullshit, bypasses management obstruction. Perfect.

author: GreyWoolfe
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 01, 2018, 02:40:33 pm
content: Quote from: TerraHertz on January 01, 2018, 05:51:19 amAnd much less messy than C-4.

author: Pack34
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 01, 2018, 02:56:23 pm
content: Quote from: mlefe on December 31, 2017, 08:49:29 pmI tried going to the VP but he just smiles, nods, and then does his own thing. There seems to be no communication in this place besides going to the CEO, which seems to do nothing.The technicians seem to tread lightly. They seem to be fearful of doing anything that would be seen as negative from the VP.The first step for a solution is to determine whether or not it's useful or fit-for-purpose. I haven't been able to get any input whether it be usefulness, ease-of-use, correct-ness, etc.The only thing I can think of, is that I put this together in a weekend while the "product engineer" who works for the VP Ops spent four months on an Excel workbook to do the same job. The problem with the workbook is that it doesn't pull data from the instrument and requires constant adjustments that only that "engineer" can do. It makes it take days to QC an instrument before it goes out the door.It just feels like subversive behaviour.

author: schmitt trigger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 01, 2018, 04:26:59 pm
content: In the 70s, there was a very popular song by Paul Simon called: "50 ways to leave your lover".I'm sure that this song could be updated to "50 ways to leave your employer".

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 01, 2018, 04:31:22 pm
content: Quote from: Pack34 on January 01, 2018, 02:56:23 pmYou could do that. Worst thing that can happen is getting fired which doesn't seem like a real issue in your situation. Maybe just have the QC department use your solution and tell nobody in management. Just make sure your name is in the GUI part of the software so you get credit for your work. Let others speak for you.

author: Pack34
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 01, 2018, 05:00:28 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on January 01, 2018, 04:31:22 pmThe product engineer micromanages QC. So its a no go. He's inserted himself back there and is roadblocking everything.

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 02, 2018, 12:12:46 am
content: It seems you're up against a corrupt corporate structure, and complaining about it will just get you fired.Remember- "the squeaky wheel gets replaced".I'd say the product(ion?) engineer is in a conflict of interest, the same person can't evaluate their own group's work.A real quality system is independently audited and would find that. QC is a separate dept. for that reason.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 02, 2018, 11:42:22 pm
content: What do you have to gain from staying there? It doesn't sound like it's a healthy environment to be in. Don't burn yourself out by flogging an already dead horse.

author: station240
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 04, 2018, 05:46:22 pm
content: Quote from: Pack34 on December 27, 2017, 10:37:05 pmDid you ever consider this is because not one left at the company knows how to do any of these things ?It's called brain drain, all the smart people leave (in disgust) while the fools and clowns remain.Doing nothing is easy, so that is exactly what your CEO and other management are doing.

author: Pack34
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 05, 2018, 03:01:28 am
content: Quote from: station240 on January 04, 2018, 05:46:22 pmThe VP Ops that's in charge of production to make spectrometers made makeup for the last 20 years. I try to guide and help but it's been refused.

author: schmitt trigger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 08, 2018, 02:58:07 pm
content: Of the many dozens of memes that make it to one's phone, there was one which describes the situation:"Companies are like septic tanks. The largest turds are the ones that float to the top".

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 08, 2018, 04:32:42 pm
content: Quote from: schmitt trigger on January 08, 2018, 02:58:07 pmOr, as I prefer to put it, "cream isn't the only thing that floats to the top".Of course today's Dilbert is relevant...http://dilbert.com/strip/2018-01-08Dogbert: "Company rules forbid you from insulting insulting your co-workers. I'll teach you how to insult each other while staying within company guidelines"PHB: "That doesn't seem possible"Dogbert: "You should look into getting a standing desk".

author: Pack34
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2018, 07:37:56 pm
content: Apparently they're now considering promoting the VP-OPS to lead both production and engineering...He's incapable of ordering the current revision of parts, ignores supplier quality issues, and refuses to embrace any form of jigging or software to improve build times and quality.

author: metrologist
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2018, 08:22:17 pm
content: Quote from: schmitt trigger on January 01, 2018, 04:26:59 pmI feel a bit left down...

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2018, 08:41:45 pm
content: "an ounce of image is worth a pound of performance"Sociopaths have traits that corporations desire and so they climb the corporate ladder very well.Their ability to not care at all about anything other than seeking promotion and attention, gives it away.You might want to size up the guy better, so you know what you are dealing with.I've encountered many sociopaths in the workplace and they are extremely destructive.

author: fourtytwo42
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2018, 09:04:16 pm
content: Quote from: Pack34 on January 11, 2018, 07:37:56 pmAt the end of the day you have to decide to either stop whining and join the pack, that is take the money and shut-up or if you have enough faith in yourself and your beleifs simply quit but with no expectation of some sort of final recignition as a result, just go!! of course this may result in a retainer offer I have known people who have taken it but not me ever! This is a bit like the thread complaining about the company wanting his ip when he is an inventor, it comes down to one thing, put-up and shut-up or follow your convictions and leave.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 12, 2018, 08:00:16 am
content: This isn't fixable. So either roll the dice and pack up, or stay where you are and take the beating.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 12, 2018, 11:04:50 am
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on January 12, 2018, 08:00:16 amI "sort of" did the latter.Actually, I got sacked, but they were too dumb to find a replacement, so ended up staying a few more years.It didn't really get any better, although I managed to slip a few improvements through from time to time.I convinced myself that as an old fart, I would be battling to get anything else, but eventually, it got too much, & I quit----this time for goodAt a "separating interview" with HR, I was ready to really tell them what a stuffed up show they were running, but bit my tongue, because it might have reflected upon the wrong people,so I just said,"They are very reluctant to change"."Funny", said the HR lady,"You're the third person in a row to say that!"

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2018, 11:48:39 pm
content: I done both approaches: quit and walk out the door, or stay and get fired.Staying in a crappy electronics engineering environment just made me dislike my craft. It's just no longer fun.I've seen it frustrates EE's to the point they get really snarky/hostile, their marriage suffers, they start eating lots gaining weight etc. Just unhealthy.Quitting, you looked after yourself but just have to deal with unemployment.Both approaches can be awkward to explain in the next job interview...

author: Nusa
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2018, 12:11:38 am
content: There's always the traditional go-find-a-new-job-and-then-quit approach.

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2018, 12:41:13 am
content: To elaborate- I quit immediately over engineering safety issues. Production, employers, managers, executives do push engineers to bypass safety. I don't tolerate that crap at all, it's in our Code of Ethics 'safety of the public' is #1. Pushing back has never gone well for me, they think it's insubordination.A bit risky looking for new job, have to book time off and go for that interview, and then if you are seen wearing a suit it's hard to explain.I had a bimbo head-hunter that called mypresentemployer for a referenceor people at potentially new Company B knew people where I presently worked at Company A.Then, I didn't get the job but word was out.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2018, 08:57:48 am
content: Quote from: floobydust on January 14, 2018, 12:41:13 amMight be worth retaining documentation about your concerns and what you did to (try to) improve things.A friend of mine had been a safety officer and written a damning report which was ignored. He resigned. Then somebody died. During the inquest the manager attempted to place the blame on my friend. Fortunately he had retained a copy of the report, and the manager (or the company?) was convicted.Quote"If you've got to say you're a lady, then you ain't".Alternatively since "safety of the public is #99999" is nonsense, the original carries no information and is mere motherhood and apple pie.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2018, 09:48:48 am
content: Quote from: tggzzz on January 14, 2018, 08:57:48 amOr get a lawsuit for withholding company documents which often is in your contract as "return company property after end of contract" which the judge could rule as theft.Be very carefull with those things. In this case since he was blamed for such a serious offence he probably gets away with it.Unfortunately companies, governments and the lot still treat whistleblowers as traitors.In fact a lot of these cases are unethical and highly damaging to society in general and are a blessing that they see the daylight.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2018, 11:15:27 am
content: Quote from: Kjelt on January 14, 2018, 09:48:48 amIt could be ambiguous, but an employer destroying evidence is also a serious offence.Perhaps some kind soul with a conscience posted/emailed the document to him anonymously

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2018, 11:32:31 am
content: Just a point: it’s only company property if it’s addressed from and to the company. If it’s an email from your personal mailbox or written from yourself personally then it is never company property. I’ve been dealing with this for years as a contractor and who owns what.Never underestimate the power of sending a shitogram via email. They know it’s a forward away from utter carnage.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2018, 11:57:28 am
content: Quote from: bd139 on January 14, 2018, 11:32:31 amThere is probably a difference between being a contractor and an employee. Company-company is one thing (even if one company is the contractor's company), but employee-company is another. (I haven't been a contractor, but I have written contracts for R&D projects.)QuoteJust so. In serious cases it is wise to duplicate the information in paperwork sent to several people.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2018, 12:35:24 pm
content: My point is that if you’re going to issue a complaint, do it from your own email address rather than the company one. It’s more likely to be taken seriously. Only complain about the nature of your employment contract ie if they make it impossible or difficult to do your job. It’s totslly acceptable to do this as first person elsewhere. That’s contractual and should be done outside closed doors.

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2018, 12:46:28 pm
content: Sometimes a company doesn't want to succeed or to make more money, they just want to exist and change as little as possible. And sometimes these companies do succeed, for no real reason.Usually it starts with management and over time attracts more people who have this same attitude. All the way down the chain.In many ways its like a business form of benign cancerThere's not much you can do if you find yourself in this sort of company, except leave.

author: mc172
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2018, 07:18:57 pm
content: Quote from: Psi on January 14, 2018, 12:46:28 pmI think a worse type of cancer is the constant "increase profit by x amount per year, every year, no matter what cost" bunch.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2018, 07:51:27 pm
content: That’s not as bad as the “growth” cancer. I worked for a company that managed to consume its entire market sector. Then the shareholders were disappointed that they hit the wall and the whole place went down the shitter.

author: mc172
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2018, 08:16:09 pm
content: That's kind of what I meant. I've had a few Sunday beers. They're different to Saturday beers. They're stronger.

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2018, 01:43:10 am
content: Talk is easy, listening is hard. So, I start with listening (reading) what you alone have to say.I pasted all your replies into one continuous thoughtandsomething screams out at me:It looks like both are talking and no one is listening, and more trouble headingyourway!Engineering and Production usually live in different worlds. Engineering has its responsibilities, and Production has its responsibilities. Add to that, each has its own culture and language. So listening is hard and understanding is even harder. Not being there, no one here can guess what priority Production has been given.What is clear is that while you had it with them,they had it with you also. It is time to change the mix.Engineering is fun, but ultimately, the company has to make money. Your company sounds like it makes things and then sell them for money - so, getting the making (aka Production) to work is important. That implies:understanding THEM is important.If you have not done so yet, now is the time to really try to communicate with the VP of Ops. Before that, let me point out, it is normal for VP of Ops to focus on processes. Processes is the heart of operations.Ask the Product team: "What can I do to help?" "How can I contribute?" "Is there something I can do to make it smoother?" "What can I change?" If they never identified the manual built as an issue, the automated script is but a waste of time.Help them make the stuff bysolving the issues they identified, and most of all, have a paper trail. Problem IDed (date) and solutions provided (date).From your latest reply, "VP-OPS to lead both production and engineering......" Looks like if you don't do it soon, he will be your boss toforce you to do itorthey willget someone elsewho will(solving the issues they identified).I am inserting your original post and quotes from all your replies here. See if you get the same thing screaming at you. If so, act soon - even if you plan to move on, while you are there, treat this as the only job in the world and take every effort to make it a success - till the moment you walk out that door at your own terms and with another job waiting for you...Good luck and best regards... I feel your pain...Quote from: Pack34 on December 27, 2017, 10:37:05 pm

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2018, 06:02:18 pm
content: Rick, you have said what I tried to say far better. This approach has very broad application.You might say "They don't know what their real problems are.". And you might be right, but I can guarantee that they know which problems they are being beat up about. Solve those and they may be willing to listen to other things.

author: Pack34
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 17, 2018, 06:48:25 pm
content: Quote from: Rick Law on January 15, 2018, 01:43:10 amEvery time I've asked I get a reply "I don't know why it takes so long to build our product".

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 17, 2018, 09:02:43 pm
content: I see the suggestions that good communication and an open attitude are something OP can try.I took courses and workshops on it. We've studied math, calculus for years, and why no courses on this? It will help all your relationships.You will find people have different levels of mental health, and blaming engineering for everything can become the corporate mantra, instead of departments owning their shit.

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 17, 2018, 09:10:10 pm
content: Quote from: Pack34 on January 17, 2018, 06:48:25 pmWith the "I don't know why it takes so long to build our product", chances are, the Ops people are not understanding how to do certain things and/or may be doing something wrong, or they simply require more training. Or, may be there is something in the design that causes the lengthy build. Right now, even if you have the perfect answer, they are not listening to you yet. That has to change. You've got to gain their trust (or at least their ears).Go sit with them. Start your day walking through the factory floor (if it is near by). Let yourself be seen being with the Production people by other Production people. If the VP of Ops permits, talk to the floor guys because they know what is going on where the rubber meets the road. Production people may just repeat the party-line, so whatever the VP's position is, they will repeat it. But once you get to know them, they will open up more. If feasible, make a few unit on the production line under their supervision following their instruction.Once you have done that, you will see that Production will listen a lot more because you are no longer someone in that corner with strange ideas. You are one who breath the same dust and get the same cuts on you finger. You are one who understands what they are talking about. They will talk, and they will listen more than before. They will see you in a different light.Once a design got to the stage of manufacturing, Ops is the King. There is no point of having a perfect product design that cannot be manufactured cost effectively. Besides, the often forgotten factory floor is where one would get a lot of good input for the next revision of the product.Quite frankly, consider this damage control. Since the CEO already have other tech consultants and is considering moving Design to report to Ops, you want to move fast. The longer you wait, the more leverage you've lost.Don't be distress that Ops is King. That condition is only temporary. Once manufacture is going smooth, Sales/Marketing is King and Ops is, well, just another cost center to them. When the next version (or major revision) of the product is budgeted and "the engine starts", Design regains the Kingdom designing the next version. The trick is making sure you are relevant when you are not the center of attention.Good luck. "People are great if only they are more like me." We all think that. So, go make them think you are more like them. It may be Mission Impossible, but a mission you need to take on.