recommed me a leveling agent for copper plating - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2024, 08:06:49 am
content: I got my SPS brightening agentI got my PEG supressorI still need a leveler.Does anyone have any suggestions, so I can happily fabricate thick copper structures with electricity?I got janus green B because its the standard. I would love to hear from someone that has experimented with this to try to make commercial quality plating.

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2024, 10:36:28 am
content: Just thiourea worked fine for me, when I was playing with it. I forget what all I used but it wasn't very picky for generic use. Tap water, copper sulfate of modest strength, a bit of acid, chloride, and a few drops of Tarn-X (thiourea and a detergent, I think).That did things like, a dense matte (crystals evident) deposit, on graphite electrodes, thick enough (a few days at low to modest current?) to get a good connection and last a while in a corrosive environment.Never had any of the other modifiers on hand, but in the right amounts (these are very minor things, a little will do, don't overdo it, it's like semi doping) that should do very well, fine grained smooth or even shiny deposit. At that point, you might need to pay attention to minor impurities: sulfate, calcium, alkali, transition metals; organics...Probably, those modifiers are more important for other metals; copper is one of the easier things to plate, I never succeeded with anything else (but again, didn't try very hard).Tim

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2024, 07:46:08 pm
content: I was hoping to try some hard things like maybe trying to do a electroplating weldI don't know if thiourea is a leveler, brightener or suppressorthe terms seem to be contestedSince its sulfur bearing, I think Thiourea is a brightener.The levelers are usually dyes or some kind of ammonia thing, which urea is.they say levelers are either some quantary amine or a dye. I went with dye since it seems to be referenced everywhereI see they say it can be used for either purpose, of course that is totally confusing, that sounds like the substitute teacherThey seem to make a stink about dyes, and how non dye could be better, but I did not see thiourea listed there, even though its liek 1000x more basic then what they suggest. Is there some grizzly industrial OSHA thing about thiourea ?It seems that messing with levelers can lead to problems like levelers being absorbed in the copper.and thiourea stinks

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2024, 08:08:32 pm
content: so is thiourea a non dye leveler AND brightener?

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2024, 07:46:52 am
content: This project also came out more expensive, if you don't want to keep your chemicals in shitty bags. I got all the proper media bottles and stuff so I am confident about storage and thats a pretty big surcharge. I had some random chemicals in ziplock bags for ages and wow does it feel great to put them in proper chemistry containers.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 29, 2024, 03:54:10 am
content: well, it became very blueand now I am blue because I bought a wide copper pipe for the anode. I read it should be phosphorus copper, meaning you need a copper plumbing pipe that has the 0.05% phosphorus.I think the tank geometry that is good is 1/2 tank OD copper cylinder, with the part submerged in the middle bottom half of the tank (so for a 4 inch tall tank, 2 inch tall pipe and part suspended 1 inch off ground and 1 inch away from pipe in the middleI used copper chloride anhydrous for my chloride ion, instead of messing with HCl. It was easier to use the powder then to try to dilute HCl.The Janus Green B is very potent dye, for my 200mL sample, 6 miligrams made it absurdly blue.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2024, 07:26:27 pm
content: my mixture worked well for about 3 hours but when I left it on over night the bottom of my coin got kinda looking like slag and 90% of the object turned hazy/frosted copper.. this is for the high throw bath for viasNext time I try1) agitation with mag stirrer2) making part lower then electrode (electrode was just sittin in beaker with part in the middle), your not supposed to have the electrode lower then 1/2 of the part.The"IN GTR "part of the coin looks great though after 12 hours @ ~50mA/square inchIt looks like the scratched up screen of a sand blasting machine, but copper color.it does however weigh about 9.5 grams, compared to a 5.6 gram quarter. Its copper clad to like 3-4 oz. It needs some work before it can handle useful current

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2024, 08:25:40 pm
content: May want a reversal power supply as well. Simply put the cell under an H-bridge and run it like that, at some modest duty cycle (say 80% ballpark). Frequency lower than ionic cutoff / diffusion limit; fractional Hz probably. I don't know what settings are best, and I'm sure there are electrolyte tweaks to go with, so, see what works.Operating principle is, asperities are preferentially removed during negative, then plated uniformly while positive.I don't know if additives are consumed or decomposed in solution, and need to be re-upped from time to time. May be something to check.I remember getting a nicely dense (if lumpy) deposit, running a cell for long term with just the thiourea in use. Not something you could use for a boardthat thick, but I mean, it waswellpast "heavy copper" territory. Lemme see.. I still have the largest plate I made back then,mostly about 1/8" thick, with knobs out to maybe 1/2", mostly around the edges. Behind, I *think* was the backing plate I grew it on, with various other deposits still stuck to it (with poorly-washed remnants of electrolyte giving the patina). This was without reversal.Never got around to melting it, before I moved... that stuff's been in storage foreverHad also built a reverser circuit around that time, but similarly didn't get a chance to use it. Not that I had much reason to grow heavy copper on what few PCBs I made, nor had the activators to make PTH.Tim

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2024, 09:42:06 pm
content: I can do duty cycle up to 2A on my linear amp with DC (HP) using a function generator. up to some KHz.That looks gnarly. Mine is just a little rough but its only 4oz you have like a few pound copper there.From what I understand1) there is conductive sediment on the bottom of container that makes a parasitic electrode. Stirring negates it, filtration removes it. You can also do something with 'tea bags' but that part is just irritating me right now to think about making socks.2) the OUP (object undergoing plating) should be hung with its mid point at the bottom of the electrode.3) a circular electrode might be the best (which is why I got high diameter copper tube, I can TIG copper weld it into the perfect shape if I want to4) my bath is very high throw (lots of H2SO4), for plating flat objects I think you want much less H2SO4. Mine was meant for vias. I would say it delivered, if it made 4oz plating. I just need to try it on a PCB5) the balance should be 70% standard polarity or so square wave (soft square?) for optimum results on ... dc offset PWM. Not sure if you need a dead zone though (i.e. not simple PWM)6) electroforming should be slow, 60mA/square inch or so. If you have filter and stirring it should get rid of the "my cell gets worse with time problems)7) copper should be phosphorous copper type (0.03-0.06% phosphorous, rest copper. Apparantly plumbing tubing satisfies this condition)electrode need scrubbing eventually because of fowling. I have a 4x stir plate hot plate thing, I wanted to make a round robin thing with electrocleaning, cleanbath, etc. I suspect that the best way to clean this shit might be a citrate solution in ultrasonic cleaner, followed up by electropolishing. That should keep that electrode looking proper.9) Cell is not efficent with copper, eventually the electrodes dissolve in it. Not sure how to determine this, the best I can figure it to burn and weigh a sample from volume. I.e. the idea is you remove 1/4 bath, and add H2SO4 and water, and additives in proportion, to dilute it to maintain your desired concentration. It is simple accounting for the copper, the dye... you can use a spectrophotometer and a cuvtette to control it... but the other additive (SPS and PEG) I don't know. I thought maybe you can track PEG using a viscosity tester. The SPS is a wild card however!!!! I don't know how to deal with that shit. a MS?? I imagine the best way might be to totally destroy/capture the additives some how (hydrogen peroxide? active carbon?) filter it, and add new additives by volume. You don't need alot.. it might not be absolutely necessary to conserve them). I bet someone knows about this.**** or since its heavy, it might be possible to just weigh a 1mL volumetric flask on a precise scale to work out density! alot better then burning.I don't know how far you can take those best practices anyway. At some point its going to lump and I assume what you need to do is take it out and sand it at some point, unless there is a trick, like periodic electropolishing after it gets a bit lump. It sounds like I would need a robot arm to move around between baths. I personally would like to find a solution that is minimum sanding, I notice that its smart to figure out ways to avoid abrasives, their a blunt instrument.. any cave life can rub something on a stoneInterestingly I can play with anodizing dutty cycle on a kepco I have if I ever fix it (never plugged it in for 2 years), I think it was broken, for the HV.I think that all these control measures would just extend the time before bumps appear, and I doubt that you can take it that far to deposit pristine bus bars in a single bath very easily.The best information is IMO the 1970's NASA videos, because they make rocket engine coolers with this technique, which may be replaced by metal 3d printing, maybe or maybe not. They put some seriously thick copper on those rocket, but it required machining, they did not perfect the method, and they might never because 3d printer is easier to manage and gets public approval for being fancy. The body of the rocket is clad with heat exchange channels that the fuel goes through to cool the engine down to reasonable temperatures (i.e. 'the rocketeer').I personally think in the far future electro deposition techniques will be perfected because if you figure out how its very simple and you can setup a rocket thruster manufacturing facility on any old planet with some copper ore. no dependance on mom to get you lasers and shit

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2024, 10:16:01 pm
content: Yeah, IIRC that deposit was pretty flat for a few days, until the growths started getting pronounced. Might've been slow on re-upping the thiourea too and that's when the growths started, then smoothed out again, then etc., I don't know.I put down probably 10 or 20 thou on the graphite electrodes I did, and it was fine, matte to visibly crystalline.I didn't have stirring, which will be a big contributor to unevenness. I also had a fairly dirty bath as I was using a crude (maybe 90, 95%?) melted bar for the anode. There might've been too much chloride present, it would cake up with Cu2Cl2 a bit, unless that was PbSO4 or other impurities laying around. I didn't analyze the anode sludge (I don't actually remember if I did any workup of it, or just filtered and trashed it..?!).Anode doesn't matter, it's dissolving, just don't let it drop bits really, and maybe filter from time to time (or continuously with a pump, good for stirring action too) to handle any precipitate or sludge that forms (don't want anything getting trapped in the deposit, weakening it or introducing impurity). As much copper is removed as deposited, unless you're using an inert anode (PbO2, Pt?) and Cu concentration is falling while the anode bubbles off O2 (or forms persulfate), or you're running entirely too much current density and bubbling H2 at the cathode (Cu concentration rising) (but obviously, you aren't going to be doing that *and* getting a good deposit, and with  rising, the problem sort of solves itself).Tim

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2024, 10:16:14 pm
content: And spinning might help its like a antenna running over the maximum frequency when it gets dirty and develops lobes, I wonder if the lumps occur because there is area of the electrode that are dirty that force current path to change.Performing the same experiment but changing the electrode to a fresh one after every 3 hours might provide very interesting results for thick plating ! There is no way to determine which parameter is causing problems unless you swap things out IMO. I can do this experiment with copper sheet because its bothering me, I never saw data that tells you what happen if you electrode is always clean........... just assumptions

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2024, 10:21:12 pm
content: In my test the electtrode was the entire beaker wall, and the part was in the middle (half circle electrode). The bottom of the coin is substantially thicker then the top, the last 1/8 inch of the quarter has like a wart on it. I don't know why that is. It makes me think the bottom of the beaker is doing somethingI only made up 200ML of solution, next one will be on a nickel coin thats smaller then a quarter and I will cut the electrode in half so its not sitting on the bottom of the beakerIt is irritating because after 3 hours, it looked like perfect, I could sell that to someone.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2024, 10:25:53 pm
content: It should be thisI imagine for 3d plating, you would want two pipes, one under and one over the OUP, with the pipes being 3-4 times the diameter of the objectthey make it more fancy toothat is hard though

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2024, 10:46:36 pm
content: QuotePeople are saying this is not true, that in a normal bath your copper concentration goes up! not all gets put on work piece, it goes into solution, hence the idea that you need to dilute the mixture once in a while. I don't know exactly how much this is. It is said in the context of a properly functioning plating bath, it just seems to be a bath maintence reality... they define it as not being 100% efficient. This is in addition to filtering the sludge, that you actually have excess IONS in the solution some how, that you need to dilute out. Or I guess plate out some how, with a inert electrode (does this deplete the solution?)I don't know WHY this is happening, but its what people are saying about the realities of copper plate solutions! If this is true I imagine it gives someone with a strong academic knowledge alot of problems!THis is why I suggested density testing, to try to measure if there is more copper in the used solution after filtering. It should be easy to measure it.I have a feeling that it might be true because in general there is alot of things that happen outside of the "superconductive copper block on a zero friction ramp" approach to process designA few percent should be easy to pick up on a scale. I did not measure density before, when I make up my 1L batch after more testing I will keep an eye on density. Only caviat is you need to make sure to take temperature into account.

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2024, 12:22:44 am
content: That doesn't happen... redox is redox, and copper is copper.At least in a pure sulfate solution, Cu(I) isn't stable, the anode will only oxidize as Cu(II).Now, it could be that sometimes the anode corrodes as Cu(I), e.g. as Cu2Cl2, because chloride is too high. Perhaps this is even an intended feature of the bath (, I don't know. If you aren't removing the Cu2Cl2 sludge (it's white, quickly turning greenish in air when moist), it can disproportionate to Cu(0) + Cu(II), or oxidize with air (particularly if a bubbler is used) to Cu(II) (which will also need to top up acid from time to time).I do recall some gray or white sludge in those experiments, but I don't know if it was that, or lead or what.Also if you aren't stirring, the solution becomes stratified, the Cu-heavy (literally denser) electrolyte falling off the anode and sinking to the bottom. This, along with local depletion of ions near the cathode surface (and give or take further convection patterns)Oh yeah, I also seem to remember striated deposits, don't remember if it was on that plate I showed or what. But that could very well be due to cathode convection.Insert Destin LAMINARFLOW gif here.Tim

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2024, 12:31:24 am
content: Well like I said its a method they recommend with trouble shooting, it would suggest the reaction is more complicated then we think, maybe there is a intermediate or something and it seems like common knowledge in electroplating troubleshooting related discussions.I used CuCl2 as my chloride source, 24mg of anhydrous for ~200 grams of solution, it is easier then weighing and diluting acid

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2024, 12:39:41 am
content: Quote from: coppercone2 on September 01, 2024, 12:31:24 amI don't understand why you have mentioned acid more than once?If you want to electroplate copper, you need copper ions, not chloride ions. Hydrochloric acid contains no copper ions, so it is on the surface, useless. (Pun intended.)

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2024, 12:42:48 am
content: its chloride

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2024, 12:49:55 am
content: Sorry, I meant to write copper. Brain fart.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2024, 01:14:26 am
content: I don't see any need for sodium in there, I see that the chemistry knowledge is shady for this and it does not seem to work too good, sodium chloride made it in there because people have it in the kitchen probobly, I am not trying to make a soup

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2024, 02:06:03 am
content: Sodium shouldn't play any role, the ions are inert, and not concentrated enough to affect conductivity or whatever. Chloride forms a complex with copper, though how exactly I don't know here; it's certainly not enough to turn the solution green (CuCl4(2-) ions) but is plenty to affect surface chemistry in some way.Tim

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2024, 02:27:14 am
content: maybe it gets high blood pressure

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2024, 07:46:36 am
content: What is the mesh of that sludge left behind? The copper sheet I used (thin) was basically rice paper thin.It looked like copper powder. It looked like it might be useful for something but I got rid of it.It looked VERY fineIt looked like the perfect stock reagent for my experiments with glass metal PCB traces

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2024, 01:44:37 pm
content: Mesh?... Oh like mesh sieve, particle size. Probably related to grain size of the metal. Corrosion proceeds from crystal faces and edges, variously; it can very well be that some faces corrode faster than others, cutting off nubs and a particle is shed, some fraction of a grain in the solid metal.Yeah, you might want to use thicker sheet, or bar.If you're after powder, you might also want to make copper sponge, say by oxidizing (Cu2O can be made easily by electrolyzing a copper anode in salt water) then reducing (heat in the presence of a fuel e.g. hot alcohol vapor?), or by electroplating at low [Cu(2+)] and high current density, thus producing H2 at the cathode that froths up the deposit. Either way, some ball milling might still be necessary, but less than say starting with turnings.Cu2O might be useful by itself, as it's a semiconductor, and easily reduced on firing.Tim

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2024, 04:49:52 am
content: Alright I am going to do a experiment with a power amplifier and AWG instead of just a DC power supply for the next job.What frequency, duty cycle and line levels should I use? Should it go negative current for cleaning... or just 0?I thought60mA/Inch² - Upper Limitnegative ___mA/inch² - lower limit0.1 Hz - Frequency80 % - Plating current (positive) duty cycle

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2024, 04:56:59 am
content: Negative, like I said, reversal. AFAIK just a polarity switch is fine. But maybe varying current density is something to try.Already said frequency and duty.Tim

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2024, 06:27:24 am
content: Its probobly like welding where you set offset and balance. Both have to do with transfering something.my wavetek has been consistently turning on after some resocketing and cleaning so I think it might be a goI have been thinking about the magnitudes. Aggressive plating is a thing, I don't know if agressive cleaning is a thing.Given the fact that electrocleaning solutions are totally different then electroplating solutions, none of the information I have really crosses over at all.The high throw solution can get things into a hole. Having it go into the hole is very much wanted, for filling voids and such. You don't want those copper ions to come out. I am going to make a guess and say that 10% reduction in cleaning current vs plating current might help keep copper in holes... you want the bumps to come off but the holes to get filled. Maybe more cleaning can get vias to prevent getting clogged or misshapen, because you basically do not care about the copper on the top when you are doing that, infact I bet the pros use two solutions, ones to get the holes finished to 90% then go to a low acid bath to get the top of the via finished without effecting the hole too much.I wonder what tricks they have for the very reliable PCBs

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2024, 08:02:48 am
content: Lol that wavetek is harder to set then I thought for some reason. I set it only using the analog gauges on the amplifier, I got some pulse that spend 80% of time @ plating current and 20% of time at ~20% reverse current.The first coin looked really shiney at first, this one looks matte.I need to get a scope down there but anyway I wonder if those dreaded bumps will show up. If it stays flat, it will still be interesting.I can't seem to get it into the mHz, so its at 1Hz for that generatorthis shit is ridiculousits most amusing to see it go down on a +- dial with the electrons doing tug of war

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2024, 08:24:54 am
content: Ehh its looking like etched PCB.I need to make sure that bath is still good to see if it plates nice on DC still with a fresh coin, because if this is it, the reverse current makes the finish crappy. Maybe it could delay or prevent bumps, which would be useful for electroforming thick parts, but this would make crappy waveguide finish.... I can't polish the inside of a apature easily if it looks like thisI will run a test on the other power supply later to see if its the solution or if reverse current makes chalky surface finish...All these experiments will require a control to verify the solution for a short duration plate, because with just DC it took 3 hours to get it to this texture. Again, maybe it prevents bumps. Maybe the frequency is just way too high.did you notice if surface finish was effected by the polarity reversal?

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2024, 09:19:06 pm
content: Perhaps I trusted the gauge dial too much for current and voltage. I set the duty cycle to 50% to see what is actually going on to give the dials time to respond. I don't want my scope near that bath lolI am trying it at a much lower interval, that is -100mA 0.05 S and 250mA 0.95s for plating a nickelI think last night I was pulsing it like 400mA -> -300mA at 20%. so now its 250mA -> -100mA @ 5%

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2024, 05:25:12 am
content: lmfao I figured out the problem with my coinI thought pi*D was area of circle, not circumference.I guess I was flooring that plate job!I kept thinking something aint seem right with 6 square inches LOLI think it was going like warp 10If the results I got is for 400% of recommended current, I say they were damn fine

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2024, 05:46:55 am
content: Quote from: coppercone2 on September 03, 2024, 05:25:12 ampi * D has dimensions of length. Area has dimensions of length squared. Therefore it is impossible for any formula that only has a single length dimension in it to be an area formula. Dimensional analysis is your friend.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2024, 05:59:17 am
content: its a good proofing test I am glad it happened

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 05, 2024, 01:41:17 am
content: do you think using a BeCu wire to suspend stuff is a bad idea for this bath if its on the object being plated?I can make a neat BeCu spring that can clamp to the object and then go above water to connect to power source, its combined electrical contact and mechanical support.I don't think any Be can leach into the bath unless the polarity is wrong?

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 05, 2024, 03:52:51 am
content: Cathode? It'll get plated like anything else. Titanium is the usual stuff, which may still get plated but the metal can simply be cracked off, it won't ever stick to it.Tim

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 05, 2024, 05:16:30 am
content: well I tried it and it looks like its just being plated I did not want Be to be dissolving in there but I think its sealed up by nowyou just wind 4 turn spring on a shaft and you can clip it on the partlike 1mm is plenty unless you need a wide springthe whole 'cake string' setup was pissing me off. they make god damn cake box windings around the part, or expect someone to buy a 10$ titanium clip. the hell with that, its not even good conductor. Its like a proper connector for a part.you can probobly take a thicker one and make a C spring clamp to hold a part with minimum contact too

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 05, 2024, 05:44:47 am
content: Is there a way to make a ultra deep throw copper solution?This one gets my horn about 1/2 depth good, the last 1/4 is really thin compared to the first 3/4.I think you can do a final plate by fixture a copper rod in the middle of the object, but is there maybe a different approach? Say adding even more acid to lower the conductivity. Or I guess you can mask it.Because they optimized it for a PCB thickness via. I need a wave guide.If I could get away from having to do masking and special electrode it would be better IMOI think I will add a drop of tarn-x to the mixtureI bent a piece of refrigerator tubing in a shape so it can clip on the side of the tank (dewalt toolbox organizer) and go down the middle of the horn. Maybe that will put some meat on the aparture cuz it has chicken legs right now.It looks like I need to build some kind of complicated dielectric apparatus with scaffolding and such.......

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 05, 2024, 07:25:34 pm
content: Well, two things: electric field, and ionic concentration. The leveler is supposed to adsorb to the metal surface, blocking current flow particularly on prominent surfaces, thus encouraging deep and even plating. So it changes the electric field, microscopically: in the ionic boundary layer around the cathode itself. For this to work, you also need enough ionic concentration, especially in crevices, holes, pits. If you aren't circulating electrolyte, you're relying on ionic diffusion, extremely slow, and so the plating current must be extremely low to allow ions to diffuse about. With agitation, stirring, or even spray, current density can be higher, but keep in mind, any pores where fluid isn't flowing, will have poor coverage.Reversal helps by preferentially removing prominent features, or perhaps passivating the surface (say by depositing Cu2Cl2 or whatever?), and may be necessary for the deepest-throw processes. I don't know what the practical limits are of purely chemical vs. electrically assisted plating are.Tim

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 05, 2024, 08:38:03 pm
content: ok the thiourea "tarn-x" addition made the antenna into almost exactly carrot color. I think it was the wrong move.it looks like i carved it out of a large carrotneed to run test coinsthere is copper under neath, but right now its optimally camouflaged for a fruit platter or chaquita banana hat, maybe useful for cuban embassyhome depot can also treat their roof this way, perfect.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 06, 2024, 02:27:11 am
content: well i finished and its a bit of a fail,10.1 mm vs 4.8 mm for a WR42and it should be10.7 x 4.3I guess I screwed it up somehow ...so6% x 11% error for the launcher waveguide input interior dimensions.My print must have been scaled and too much paint etcI think I scaled it with a guess to what it might look like after paint and plating.Ferengi wave guide, the kind the grand magus used to contact deep space nine.the paint is too much of a wild card, I need to get electroless copper down, then I can just deal with plating , meaning I can periodically measure it while its going. trying to predict what that paint will do is too hardand forget about doing a "nice" job on the waveguide launcher bit without precise fixturing and possibly masking etc. its not too pretty in there The flange is great but the ID I guess needs a special short plating pin to go in there about 1/2 inch deep , plate that and then plate the interior with a longer bit and then plate the exteriorthe sharp interior corners are also difficult to polish, I used silicone rubber abrasive points, but its wonky, and the silver plating (kool amp) did not do a 100% job on that bit either, I get a bit of dark spots that are really hard to clean up. You probobly need to scrub it using a tooth pick that has diamond abrasive on it to get those "nice". Because I had to polish it and add kool-amp silver coating, the kool amp had a few inner corner spots that are black, but under it it has copper metal if you scratch it.I put off buying alot of the polishing tools I wanted for a long time, those will be a expensive key..But this waveguide is outsdie my VNA capabilities. The next smaller one requires a few liters of solution to properly plate that I can try to measure

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 07, 2024, 05:57:24 am
content: I got a <10 um woven polypropylene filter sheet to try to make anode bags from.non woven looked like it would soak up stuff, so I opted for woven. Non woven is like felt I think, its gonna be mad heavy/dampwet felt is like god damn metal weight lol

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 07, 2024, 09:45:51 pm
content: of course the tin chloride from the other suppliers also makes milk.I am going to try to dissolve in the minimum amount of HCl water, filter it, then freeze crystalizeall the tin chloride sellers aretrashand they make this endevour nearly impossiblejust to make sure I will make the degassed water with nitrogen in the special degassing glassware and add fresh HCl and then try to dissolve it again. This problem will not hide behind some nebulous claims of oxygenated waterI heard tall tales about nitrogen tires from the shitty car dealership too. i feel like when nitrogen starts getting referenced there is usually a bunch of hooey behind it. The nitrogen tire man sold a car that needed $5000 in repairs and was still a piece of shit, and his tires were leaky, fat load of good nitrogen would do for that problem

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2024, 02:10:34 am
content: the third tin chloride worked to dissolve clear, this one came not as a powder but lumps.Turns out the old palladium chloride I had from a few years ago was bad too, it dissolved clear. When I added the one from a more reputable supplier the solution turned jet blacktoo many bad reagents were giving me severe agita

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2024, 06:11:09 am
content: i did the steps in that PDF with a piece of alumina, it made black stuff on it that is conductive and well adhered to the ceramic but it does not look like nice copper

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2024, 07:39:56 am
content: I electroless plated a nylon washer.It mostly worked but there is a few black spots. Like ink black.The resistance is medicore (<20 ohms)Slow electroless copper bath with dark spots – A slow copper bath exhibiting large dark areas can be a symptom of a copper content that is too low or an insufficient bath temperature.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 11, 2024, 04:24:47 am
content: its possible to solder to the electroless plating on ceramic. It beads, but it does adhere fairly strong, and if you rip it off it takes off the underlying copper, whatever did not melt into the solder.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 11, 2024, 05:31:49 am
content: I wonder if I wore out the tin chloride solution or if the copper plate is more sensitive then I thought.There is a problem with mixing it, if you do not dissolve the lye first, it will heat up and burn the EDTA, so efforts to shake and bake the stuff are kind of fruitless, it turns into black carbon in the solution.I feel that the glass-silver substrate bond is stronger then the electroless copper soldered bond, but neither is terribly impressive, well neither is standard PCB material, if you yank hard on a solder pad it will come off. All three have a satisfying "snap" for pull tests. I don't think that electroplating the copper on top of the electroless copper will result in stronger boards.While silver on ceramic is interesting for ceramic PCB, so is chemical copper... this adds another dynamic to tests, to compare silver-glass alumina substrate with electroplated and etched substrate for making boards.If you don't have thick film resistors on the PCB, is there any benefit towards using silver glass instead of just electroless copper plating, if thickened by electroplating? I wonder what will happen when I solder down parts, despite there being substantial strenght in the electroless on ceramic copper bond, it might not be enough when parts are actually soldered to the PCB, with thin traces, etc.It does add a option though, for hybrid chemical and sintered boards, where the ground plane can be made with chemical plating and the signal layer can be made with silver ceramic. The via might have more standard RF properties if chemical plated, and the added complexity of masking and stuff makes it a bit of a moot point, even for a medium board silver is cheap enough that the time saved is worth more then a bit of silverFor a connector or turret terminals, the silver glass would make for impressive strength, but for say... 0.3mm vias stitching, I am not sure its the best choice, I suspect the "paste in hole" approach might result in a substantial amount of defects if you really stitch somethinghowever if the silver glass is drillable, making full vias and drilling them out might be very perfect

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2024, 08:41:27 am
content: the blackness of the solution is not a indicator that it has enough palladium. if you do everything right for electroless copper and it looks right but its not working, add more palladium