Found Sercret FAA radar in the woods of NH USA - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: yada
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2017, 02:16:55 am
content: I found this while hiking in the woods in New Hampshire US. Its an FAA facility, looks like it has a bunch of little antennas that bounce off that big cone in the middle. The metal grate that goes around it must be for RF because you couldn't walk on it. Has its own transformer with underground cables that come from a near by road. Uses a lot of electricity from the size of the transformer. Does anyone know what this is? Its kind of near a big airport on top of a hill. Strange that they didn't have power lines to it but I guess that's so ice doesn't knock out the power.

author: yada
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2017, 02:18:37 am
content: Another:

author: yada
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2017, 02:22:00 am
content: I think this is a directed energy weapon that takes energy from your smart meter and penetrates tin foil hats. I saw an episode of VICE where a lady wears one to bed because she's a "targeted individual"

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2017, 02:23:21 am
content: This is a VOR navigation facility. You see them on aero charts. They predate GPS.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VHF_omnidirectional_rangehttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VOR/DME

author: yada
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2017, 02:30:54 am
content: That's what they look like. I remember using VOR first time I flew before GPS. I thought they would just use a tower with an tenna at the top. What kind of antenna is that? Are the little domes the actual transmitters? Heading over to Wikipedia, I'll be back in a few hours clicking on links.

author: Nusa
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2017, 02:37:31 am
content: Nothing secret about them. They're published on aviation maps, and are active radio beacons for anyone with the right receiver. A doppler VOR like in your pictures sends out a differently phased signal for each compass point, which means a VOR reciever will have a compass heading from the VOR without needing direction finding equipment.GPS is great, but it has the potential for outages. Especially deliberate outages or degradation for military reasons. In aviation it's very bad not to have fallbacks, so I don't see the very successful VOR system going away soon.

author: rx8pilot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2017, 02:37:49 am
content: VOR is not particularly secret, LOL.They have become almost completely backup navigation these days too. Still important, but an outage is unlikely to have any impact on a flight, much less create an incident or accident.

author: rx8pilot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2017, 02:39:36 am
content: They are not based on Doppler- but rather radial pulse timing. Very clever use of technology back in the day.

author: Dan Moos
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2017, 03:52:54 am
content: Definitely a VOR station.They are very much still in use, at least for general aviation stuff (think little Cessnas and the like)The pilot has a receiver and an indicator. The station sends out a beam on that freq at each compass degree around the station. At least that is how it appears conceptually to the pilot. I forget how it actually works, but its timed pulses of some sort. These "beams" are called radials. Imagine spokes on a wheel.So the pilot dials in the station's freq, and the radial he wants to navigate on. The needle on the indicator centers if you cross that spoke. So if you crossed it perpendicularly, it would briefly center as you crossed it. If you were aligned with it, and flying at the station, it would stay centered.Most planes have two receivers, so you can triangulate using two stations.Pretty crude by GPS standards, but not that difficult to use. When I flew, just about any plane you encountered was VOR equipped, but GPS receivers that were certified for aviation were crazy expensive. Maybe that's changed, but I'd be surprised. Anytime something has "aviation" in the title, you can plan on slapping another '0' on the end of the price.

author: yada
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2017, 04:19:00 am
content: Quote from: rx8pilot on June 12, 2017, 02:39:36 amThe doppler signal encodes the station identifier, i(t), optional voice, a(t), navigation variable signal in c(t), and the isotropic (i.e. omnidirectional) component. The navigation variable signal is A3 modulated (greyscale). The navigation reference signal is delayed, t+, t?, by electrically revolving a pair of transmitters. The cyclic doppler blue shift, and corresponding doppler red shift, as a transmitter closes on and recedes from the receiver results in F3 modulation (colour). The pairing of transmitters offset equally high and low of the isotropic carrier frequency produce the upper and lower sidebands. Closing and receding equally on opposite sides of the same circle around the isotropic transmitter produce F3 subcarrier modulation, g(A,t).t = t + ( A , t ) ? ( R / C ) sin ? ( 2 ? F n t + ( A , t ) + A ) t = t ? ( A , t ) + ( R / C ) sin ? ( 2 ? F n t ? ( A , t ) + A ) e ( A , t ) = cos ? ( 2 ? F c t ) ( 1 + c ( t ) ) + g ( A , t ) c ( t ) = M i cos ? ( 2 ? F i t ) i ( t ) + M a a ( t ) + M n cos ? ( 2 ? F n t ) g ( A , t ) = ( M d / 2 ) cos ? ( 2 ? ( F c + F s ) t + ( A , t ) ) + ( M d / 2 ) cos ? ( 2 ? ( F c ? F s ) t ? ( A , t ) ) {\displaystyle {\begin{array}{rcl}t&=&t_{+}(A,t)-(R/C)\sin(2\pi F_{n}t_{+}(A,t)+A)\\t&=&t_{-}(A,t)+(R/C)\sin(2\pi F_{n}t_{-}(A,t)+A)\\e(A,t)&=&\cos(2\pi F_{c}t)(1+c(t))\\&+&g(A,t)\\c(t)&=&M_{i}\cos(2\pi F_{i}t)~i(t)\\&+&M_{a}~a(t)\\&+&M_{n}\cos(2\pi F_{n}t)\\g(A,t)&=&(M_{d}/2)\cos(2\pi (F_{c}+F_{s})t_{+}(A,t))\\&+&(M_{d}/2)\cos(2\pi (F_{c}-F_{s})t_{-}(A,t))\\\end{array}}}where the revolution radius R = Fd C / (2 ? Fn Fc ) is 6.76 ± 0.3 m .The transmitter acceleration 4 ?2 Fn2 R (24,000 g) makes mechanical revolution impractical, and halves (gravitational redshift) the frequency change ratio compared to transmitters in free-fall.The mathematics to describe the operation of a DVOR is far more complex than indicated above. The reference to "electronically rotated" is a vast simplification. The primary complication relates to a process that is called "blending".[citation needed]Another complication is that the phase of the upper and lower sideband signals have to be locked to each other. The composite signal is detected by the receiver. The electronic operation of detection effectively shifts the carrier down to 0 Hz, folding the signals with frequencies below the Carrier, on top of the frequencies above the carrier. Thus the upper and lower sidebands are summed. If there is a phase shift between these two, then the combination will have a relative amplitude of (1 + cos ?). If ? was 180°, then the aircraft's receiver would not detect any sub-carrier (signal A3)."Blending" describes the process by which a sideband signal is switched from one antenna to the next. The switching is not discontinuous. The amplitude of the next antenna rises as the amplitude of the current antenna falls. When one antenna reaches its peak amplitude, the next and previous antennas have zero amplitude.By radiating from two antennas, the effective phase centre becomes a point between the two. Thus the phase reference is swept continuously around the ring – not stepped as would be the case with antenna to antenna discontinuous switching.In the electromechanical antenna switching systems employed before solid state antenna switching systems were introduced, the blending was a by-product of the way the motorized switches worked. These switches brushed a coaxial cable past 50 (or 48) antenna feeds. As the cable moved between two antenna feeds, it would couple signal into both.But blending accentuates another complication of a DVOR.

author: NivagSwerdna
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2017, 10:55:52 am
content: Do you have the GPS co-ordinates? It would be fun to find it on an aviation chart.

author: sokoloff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2017, 11:36:36 am
content: Here's one that it might be:https://goo.gl/maps/MG7qZFCYwWyThe coordinates of VORs are public information and can be easily accessed here: (among others)http://airnav.com/navaids/(The one above is "LEB", just northeast of Lebanon airport in NH.)

author: German_EE
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2017, 06:42:26 pm
content: t = t + ( A , t ) ? ( R / C ) sin ? ( 2 ? F n t + ( A , t ) + A ) t = t ? ( A , t ) + ( R / C ) sin ? ( 2 ? F n t ? ( A , t ) + A ) e ( A , t ) = cos ? ( 2 ? F c t ) ( 1 + c ( t ) ) + g ( A , t ) c ( t ) = M i cos ? ( 2 ? F i t ) i ( t ) + M a a ( t ) + M n cos ? ( 2 ? F n t ) g ( A , t ) = ( M d / 2 ) cos ? ( 2 ? ( F c + F s ) t + ( A , t ) ) + ( M d / 2 ) cos ? ( 2 ? ( F c ? F s ) t ? ( A , t ) )Of course, yes, quite clear.Now back to my downloaded copy of the Batman TV series and a large quantity of chocolate.

author: babysitter
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2017, 06:28:45 am
content: Anything is a dildo.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 16, 2017, 10:29:27 am
content: They don't tend to put "secret" facilities near a walking trail, without CCTV and marked with signage.

author: yada
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2017, 10:12:14 pm
content: Quote from: sokoloff on June 15, 2017, 11:36:36 amNo not that one. There is a baseball pitch nearby. I might have a pic with letters that were written on the side of the building. The town was called Londonderry NH. A few km <10? from MHT Manchester international airport in Manchester NH. IF you google map MHT then look east and slightly north you should be able to find it by a recreation area surrounded by woods and its in a field that's not well maintained with irregular outlines (not a nice circle from what I could see on the ground) You have to drive into the recreation area to get to the dirt road that leads to it. The top looks like those pictures on conspiracy web sites of phalanx (penis) figures.

author: Howardlong
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2017, 10:34:37 pm
content: If you have a VHF receiver with AM on it and scan 108-118MHz in 50kHz steps, you'll be able to find it, and it will ident in morse code.As already mentioned, for its time VOR was pretty advanced. In the UK they are gradually disappearing due to maintenance costs and the move to GPS. Having said that, their positions have been so built in to air traffic procedures that their motional positions are used extensively for navigation even though many no longer physically exist.

author: yada
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2017, 10:46:16 pm
content: I guess those little domes transmit at 50Hz rotating around to make it appear as if it was a spinning dish. Still don't know if that middle bit is a reflector or just another antenna all together. They should keep them incase an EMP solar flare disrupts GPS.

author: yada
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2017, 10:49:54 pm
content: I thought this was secret because they have new boston center which is a huge secret installation in New Boston NH. If you climb the right mountain you can look over into it. But sometimes when you climb up that mountain army guys with M16's will greet you and escort you the whole mile long hike down off of it. There are signs around it telling you that you can be shot on sight for entering. In the 1950's it was a UFO hot spot.

author: sokoloff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 17, 2017, 01:28:10 am
content: Quote from: yada on June 16, 2017, 10:12:14 pmThat's the MHT VOR then.https://goo.gl/maps/Tfzb367oZm52Frequency: 114.40Morse ID: -- .... -

author: Howardlong
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 17, 2017, 06:03:48 am
content: Quote from: yada on June 16, 2017, 10:46:16 pmThe centre antenna carries the reference signal. As well as the morse beacon, it also transmits a subcarrier outside the usual AM bandwidth at 9960Hz which itself is FM modulated at 30Hz, the same frequency that the antennas on the periphery are successively transmitted on with exactly the same RF signal as the reference, 30 times a second, synchronised with the subcarrier's modulation.The receiver receives three signals. There's the AM morse ident, the 30Hz reference signal from the 9960Hz subcarrier, AND the 30Hz modulation from the interference between the reference and rotating signals.By measuring the phase difference between the 30Hz signal on the reference subcarrier, and the modulation caused by the interference between the reference and rotating RF carriers, also at 30Hz, you can figure out the bearing. Depending where you are around the beacon, that phase difference will change.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 17, 2017, 07:23:26 am
content: Quote from: yada on June 16, 2017, 10:49:54 pmYou'll find that most "top secret" locations that people know about, like Cheyenne Mountain (USA), Pine Gap and Woomera (Australia) and other sites such as headquarters for various organisations and those connected to"five eyes" are not much to look at. They essentially "hide" in plain sight. Not to say restricted and classified work doesn't occur there, but the building/locations themselves aren't covert, just the work that goes on inside them (and even then, a lot of the "stuff" gets shipped/transmitted/transported to other sites for more "stuff").Meanwhile, while people focus on the big mysterious facilities various governments have, it takes a lot of the heat off actual covert locations (the ones you aren't aware that they exist). A lot of interesting work happens behind closed doors which appear like normal, everyday boring offices, retail centres and industrial complexes. I guarantee you've walked or driven past one at some point and not bat an eyelid.

author: John Coloccia
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 17, 2017, 11:56:44 am
content: Quote from: yada on June 16, 2017, 10:49:54 pmYou mean this "secret"?https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Boston_Air_Force_StationThat's not very secret either. You're just not allowed to go there, just like a lot of other military installations.

author: Augustus
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 17, 2017, 12:28:01 pm
content: Psssst... Secret nuclear bunker is secret

author: yada
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 17, 2017, 01:05:00 pm
content: On sept 11th the planes that crashed were being controlled by new boston center, because they would have been in their air space. This station would have been the first to find out the planes had gone off course.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 17, 2017, 01:33:24 pm
content: Yada, you need to get out more. Read the wikipedia article. The New Boston center tracks satellites. The military doesn't control civilian flights, and this station probably has technology to eliminate the clutter of atmospheric air traffic. The guys at the New Boston center probably found out about the 9/11 situation the same way most people did, on radio or television.

author: Jr460
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 17, 2017, 01:42:39 pm
content: Yes a VOR, most likely a VORTAC.Before GPS, VORs where great, much easier to deal with than a NDB.If you ignore the ident for now, a VOR has both FM and AM modulation. The first versions of VOR had a vertical 1/4 wave antenna inside a rotating metal cylinder. There was a slot in the cylinder. A bit of the antenna stuck out the top so you always got just a bit of the signal. What the rotation did was give the signal an AM modulation, and where the peak was depended on where you where in relation to the VOR. That alone doesn't help you much, so you have an FM modulation that is timed with it's peak to be when the slot is pointed to magnetic north.Think of it in terms of lighthouse. You have a white light that spins and you see the flash. Now add a red omni directional light on top that flashes just as the rotating light points north. With the time difference between when you see the red flash and the white flash you know what "radial" you are on from the light house.You now have two ways to tell exactly where you are, use two VORs and see where the radial cross. Or use DME and a VOR. Distance Measuring Equipment. DME is in the 900MHz and above range gets you within .1nm.Having both at a site makes it a VOR-DMEVORs are VHF, the military needed something a bit more and also wanted UHF, so they have TACAN. TACAN also has DME by default. So a facility with all 3 is a VORTAC. This what most are, a VORTAC, a plain VOR or TACAN, or VOR-DME is rare. Even on a military base they put up VORTACs.Newer VORs don't have an moving parts, they are a Doppler VOR like in this thread.Wait, nothing moving..... Doppler......Yea they electricaly move the signal around to the smaller antennas, you just think the transmitter is moving. The Doppler gives the FM modulation and the fixed part in the center gives the AM.

author: yada
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 17, 2017, 02:00:09 pm
content: Quote from: CatalinaWOW on June 17, 2017, 01:33:24 pmI used to fly airplanes (cesna's single prop around 5000' elev.) around the north east. When you leave the airports air space (think upside down cones) you are controlled by "new boston centre" as they call it on the VHF radio. We made a circle off our flight plan, and as soon as we were 180' in, New Boston centre called us up on the radio to see what were doing or if something was wrong, this was pre 911 too. We told them sight seeing and told them how many minutes we were going to do that and had to resume our flight plan. You can't just fly around, you always have to check into someone's air space. As soon as those 9/11 planes deviated in course or altitude NBC would have called them up to see why.

author: sokoloff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 17, 2017, 08:51:58 pm
content: Quote from: yada on June 17, 2017, 02:00:09 pmI fly now (and flew before 9/11/01 as well). Most light aircraft are not "controlled" by ATC en route, and (way) less than 5% of my flights are under a flight plan. You absolutely can still take off and just go sightseeing around in 99+% of the country's airspace. I am based at a towered airport (Lawrence Airport) and once I'm 5 miles away from there, I can fly to my parent's airport in NC and I don't have to talk to anyone else on the radio if I don't feel like it. Flying to my wife's family in Ohio, we use a towered airport at the other side as well, so I need to talk to someone for the last 5-10 miles.Below 10K and away from towered airports in the area, it's "Boston approach" on the radio. Above 10K it's "Boston center". The handoff/transition altitudes aren't always 10K MSL, but that's typical.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2017, 04:22:23 am
content: I haven't checked the maps for your area, so don't know what NBC controls, and don't know if this is a joint FAA/military operation (such things exist).It could be that you were just lucky in your choice of flight locations. Like flying out of the LA basin north - you go near or over Edwards flight test area and I am sure the Edwards controllers are interested when you fly near their airspace - and very interested if you enter it.In any case calling an entity that contacts you, identifies itself and responds to your responses "SECRET" must involve a special meaning of that word.

author: John Coloccia
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2017, 09:59:12 pm
content: Quote from: CatalinaWOW on June 18, 2017, 04:22:23 amLike any other restricted area, you'll get in big trouble at Edwards, and you may even get intercepted. That said there is (or was, at any rate) a flying club there, so it's not like you absolutely can't go in and out, but you do need to talk to them and have a reason to be there. My home field for several years was Fox in Lancaster (just west of Edwards). No real big deal flying around there. Stay away from Edwards, and for your own sake stay away from the military routes...those boys can cook, and if I remember correctly there where drones every now and then too.BTW, I have a friend that used to work at Boston center. As far as I know, it's still in Nashua, NH...not really anywhere near New Boston.

author: EE-digger
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2018, 04:58:02 pm
content: Old thread but I live a few miles from the OP's FAA installation, a popular local walk. Nothing secret about it. It may have an alternate use though ... generation of complex, lower frequency waves to penetrate the thin skin of those tin foil hats.