Rigol DS1054Z Bandwagon Tips? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: technix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 07, 2017, 02:59:27 pm
content: My first-paycheck gift to myself is a brand new Rigol DS1054Z. I gave it network access and have installed the hack and it is working properly as a DS1104Z. Is there any use and maintainence tops I need to be aware of?

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 07, 2017, 04:34:10 pm
content: Quote from: technix on January 07, 2017, 02:59:27 pmThe ground clip of the probes is connected to mains earth. Anything you clip it onto will therefore connect to mains earth. If what you're examining isn't floating then magic smoke can escape from it (nb. the scope should be OK unless you manage to pass enough amps to melt the probe lead).On-screen numbers are calculated using the data on screen. For the most accurate readings always zoom in as much as possible on the area of interest (both height and width).Apart from that, just read the manual and enjoy it.

author: Karel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 07, 2017, 04:48:17 pm
content: Just check if it has the latest firmware installed and have fun with it.

author: technix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 07, 2017, 05:15:42 pm
content: Quote from: Karel on January 07, 2017, 04:48:17 pmMy unit is running firmware 00.04.02.SP4 on hardware 0.1.1 (as reported in the system information screen.) Is it okay?

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 07, 2017, 05:27:57 pm
content: Quote from: technix on January 07, 2017, 05:15:42 pmSeems very old to me. Latest official firmware is 00.04.04.00.07Press this secret key sequence to get extended system info:Menu -> Menu -> Force -> Menu -> Utility -> System -> System Info

author: technix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 07, 2017, 06:07:23 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on January 07, 2017, 05:27:57 pmWhere to find the latest one? And what key combination you are talking about? There are multiple Menu buttons.

author: Karel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 07, 2017, 06:28:53 pm
content: To display the full version information:- In the trigger area on the front panel, press MENU > MENU > FORCE > MENU <<< press this sequence very quickly- In the menu area, press UTILITY > SYSTEM > SYSTEM INFO

author: Karel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 07, 2017, 06:32:02 pm
content: Normally you can download the latest firmware here:http://int.rigol.com/Support/SoftDownload/3But Rigol removed it because there seems to be a problem with the latest version.Conract Rigol for a firmware update and they will send you a link where you can download it.

author: technix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 07, 2017, 06:36:34 pm
content: Quote from: Karel on January 07, 2017, 06:28:53 pmHere is the screen (in Chinese as I speak that language natively.)

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 07, 2017, 06:47:33 pm
content: Quote from: technix on January 07, 2017, 02:59:27 pmAs with any scope, the probes and probing technique are important, since they are part of the circuit and the oscilloscope.Make sure you use the right type of probe for the task (e.g. HV, Z0, current, differential, isolating, active etc etc) and that you use itsafelyand correctly - particularly w.r.t. that fictional entity called "ground". Classic examples: a standard *10 "high" impedance probe self-resonates at ~100MHz, and at high frequencies its input impedance islowerthan so-called low impedance Z0 probes.FFI, see the references athttps://entertaininghacks.wordpress.com/library-2/scope-probe-reference-material/

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 07, 2017, 07:03:38 pm
content: Use 'x10' mode.Don't try to use the probes in 'x1' mode until you understand why you're not supposed to do that.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 07, 2017, 07:30:21 pm
content: Like with any other equipment that can:Self Caloften.

author: elcaron
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2017, 01:22:03 pm
content: Talking about the ground issue: I found that the USB connector is able to power an Arduino or ESP8266, with common ground. So, would doing that and leaving out the ground clip entirely be a good idea? I guess starting at some frequency, you want to keep the loop small and use the short ground clip wire, but for a lot of stuff, this should work, shouldn't it? It wouldn't be the first time that I have a hard time finding a good position to place ground on a miniaturized µC board.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2017, 02:14:09 pm
content: Quote from: elcaron on January 09, 2017, 01:22:03 pmI never really thought about doing that, the dev board is usually connected to a PC for software uploads.There's no reason it won't work though. Give it a try and see what happens. Have a look at a square edge and see if you get more ringing (or not... If the entire board is at the same potential as the 'scope then I'm not sure what happens).

author: elcaron
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2017, 03:08:48 pm
content: QuoteSure, that should also work, as PC USB ports are also usually at earth potential. Just makes the loop even bigger.I actually did it and it worked for the stuff I did, but that was basically digital stuff in the lower kHz region with not much interest in analog stuff (just got the osci and mainly finally debugged my IR hub). So I am not sure if that would really be a generally good tip are would fall apart very soon.In Any case it is surely better that letting out the magic smoke by connecting the clip to the wrong contact.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2017, 03:52:31 pm
content: Quote from: elcaron on January 09, 2017, 03:08:48 pmYes, it will work. I'm just worried you'll get a lot more ringing on fast rising edges (I think you will, otherwise what would be the point of the little spring thingy for the probe).

author: technix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2017, 04:03:09 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on January 09, 2017, 03:52:31 pmWell I was seeing ringing even with the ground clip, probing a square wave right at the pin of a STM32F103 pushing out square wave with its PWM hardware.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2017, 04:06:32 pm
content: Quote from: technix on January 09, 2017, 04:03:09 pmTry using the spring (see other thread), it really helps.

author: alsetalokin4017
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2017, 04:44:42 am
content: Quote from: tautech on January 07, 2017, 07:30:21 pmHeh... whenever you have a spare hour, anyway.Warm it up for 30 minutes first, then run the self-cal routine.... and it takes 17-19 minutes to complete the self-cal.The instrument is indeed sensitive to changes in ambient temperature. I get DC offsets appearing whenever the room temperature changes by a couple of degrees.

author: alsetalokin4017
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2017, 04:51:53 am
content: Quote from: technix on January 07, 2017, 06:36:34 pmHah... I see you have Boot Version 0.0.1.2. Unfortunately there seems to be no way for the _user_ to upgrade the Boot Version. The "firmware" updates that we can install only change the "software version".Since you have that early Boot Version and are still running an older "firmware" version, you may still be susceptible to certain bugs that were found, like the Freeze Bug and the Measurements Fail bug. There are threads talking about these bugs if you want to check for them.You should also know about the "fifth grey button reset" if your scope ever freezes and becomes non-responsive.Press this button repeatedly during the bootup process, and the scope will reset to "factory defaults":

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2017, 05:03:51 am
content: Quote from: alsetalokin4017 on January 10, 2017, 04:44:42 amReally ?Shite that's slow.Let me do one for a 1102X, bet it's under 4 minutes......I lost...4 min 5 sec.SDS2304X........2 min 47 sec, but these have a Quick Cal too that Cal's on the fly. Haven't used it for a long time but IIRC it takes just a few seconds.No restarts required for either series of these, if fact AFAIK any of the Siglent DSO range.

author: alsetalokin4017
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2017, 05:27:51 am
content: Just ran a self-cal to check for certain:Start time 23:06:30End time 23:25:01 (not including restart after calibration routine finishes)This is the third DS1054z unit I've had in my possession and all of them have taken about that long to self-cal.

author: Karel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2017, 07:32:02 am
content: Quote from: tautech on January 10, 2017, 05:03:51 amI feel pitty for you that you are so desperately trying to promote your siglent stuff in every thread here.Is business going that bad for you?

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2017, 07:34:16 am
content: Quote from: tautech on January 10, 2017, 05:03:51 amThat only has 2 channels... DS1054Z has 4!

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2017, 07:59:37 am
content: Quote from: Karel on January 10, 2017, 07:32:02 amWhat's the matter Karel ?.....do the facts hurt ?Confirmation by alsetalokin4017 indicates the Self Cal process of 1054Z's is pitifully slow. Period.I've not seen it mentioned before, why shouldn't I comment ?QuoteIt's excellent, 2016 was a record year. How about you ?Quote from: Fungus on January 10, 2017, 07:34:16 amSDS2304X........2 min 47 secSo somebody with a DS2072A chime in with their Self Cal time and then there can another for fair comparison.

author: onesixright
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2017, 08:22:55 am
content: Have a look here:Dave made a nice videohow notto blow up you precious toy ;-)

author: eKretz
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2017, 09:28:56 am
content: Quote from: Karel on January 10, 2017, 07:32:02 amHonestly I don't see a problem with his post. Almost 20 minutes to cal the scope is crazy long. Even my old Tek does SPC in less than 5 minutes for 4 channels. I haven't timed it exactly but I know it's in the 3-4 minute range from just watching the clock waiting for it. That kind of info is useful to new or potential users - I sure would like to know that before purchasing - it would be an unhappy surprise to me. It doesn't kill the scope in my eyes by any means, but geez that's almost an hour before you can trust measurements.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2017, 10:27:46 am
content: Without knowing what the self calibration covers (does) it doesn't make sense to compare the time.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2017, 10:37:53 am
content: Quote from: eKretz on January 10, 2017, 09:28:56 amSo? The Siglents and Teks need more than 45 minutes. That's not really much better, is it?

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2017, 11:05:27 am
content: Quote from: eKretz on January 10, 2017, 09:28:56 amHmm... How often do you guys typically run self-calibration?My espresso machine needs to be descaled occasionally, and I couldn't care less how long that takes, as long as the coffee tastes good.I have always considered scope self-cal to be in a similar class of operation: Do it once or twice a year, or maybe if you move the scope to a different environment. (Say outdoors -- but I have not had that need yet.) Are you using it much more often?

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2017, 11:31:47 am
content: Quote from: ebastler on January 10, 2017, 11:05:27 amMe? Almost never. Maybe after a firmware update or when winter/summer arrives.I never imagined my scope as a multimeter, I know the voltage readings are only about 5% accurate even when perfectly calibrated (it says so in the manual!)If you know that simple fact you can relax and use it for what it'smeantto be used for, ie. look at the wiggly lines and see if they're the right shape or not.5% accuracy is enough to see if there's a problem in the circuit. Everything else is just volt-head obsessing.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2017, 01:52:16 pm
content: Quote from: ebastler on January 10, 2017, 11:05:27 amMaybe once every 2 years. Probably when I notice the DC offset at the mV/division ranges is a bit off.

author: RoGeorge
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2017, 02:10:01 pm
content: I am recalibrating only after a firmware update. Recalibrating time is not important, since you need to let the scope to properly heat for at least 1/2 hour before recalibrating. Otherwise, repeated recalibration is pointless.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2017, 02:41:56 pm
content: Thanks, all. That makes me feel better. So I will keep doing what I've been doing (or rather not doing) regarding self-calibration... And I will keep not caring at all how long it takes.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2017, 07:05:36 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on January 10, 2017, 10:37:53 amTypo I guess, otherwise no idea where you got 45 mins from ?

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2017, 07:22:09 pm
content: Quote from: tautechNope, just basic math.If the 17-minute Rigol takes "almost an hour" to calibrate then the original poster must have done a 42 minute warmup.With the same math the 4-minute Siglent takes over 45 minutes.The Siglent is therefore 23% faster.Not exactly a showstopping difference is it?

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2017, 07:22:16 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on January 10, 2017, 07:05:36 pmWarmup time plus a few minutes for the actual self-calibration, I assume.No cause to get overly excited, tautech. Don't hurt your head there...

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2017, 07:50:40 pm
content: Quote from: ebastler on January 10, 2017, 07:22:16 pmIn the many years I've had DSO's (Teks and Siglents) none have had Self Cal times or more than 5 minutes, 2 or 4 ch models. Period.Self Cal is not something one uses every day or even during an extended period of use unless there's some reason for it like a "sanity check" because the measurements captured aren't what you'd expect. In this case whileusingthe instrument and a Self Cal seems necessary a short break while it happens for a coffee is fine but a whole lunch break for it to finish.Should Siglent present the market with a entry level DSO that takes more than a few minutes to run a Self Cal, I won't be selling it and they'll get told to sort it out.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2017, 08:00:10 pm
content: Running the self calibration daily is severe overkill. On some oscilloscopes (Agilent DSO7000 series for example) running the self calibration even voids the calibration performed by a calibration lab. Hooking the probes to the calibrator output and check if the signal is OK is even better because you'll also test the probes.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2017, 09:09:29 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on January 10, 2017, 08:00:10 pmAgreed.QuoteHow can that be ?If the conditions that the Cal was performed in are replicated (ambient temp, warm up time) and the official traceable Cal has nulled the internal reference errors, why would a Self Cal void any official Cal ?I don't get it.Might there be a bug in the Agilent DSO7000 Self Cal ?Is there a note from Agilent that explains this behaviour and why it is so ?

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2017, 09:16:29 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on January 10, 2017, 09:09:29 pmOne word: "Lawyers".Pushing a "self cal" button doesn'tproveit's working properly.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2017, 09:18:44 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on January 10, 2017, 09:09:29 pmNot really but the manual says a performance verification has to be performed after a self cal using equipment with traceable calibration to make sure the oscilloscope meets it's specifications.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2017, 09:33:40 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on January 10, 2017, 09:18:44 pmHmmm.Weird, I would call that a bug.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2017, 09:38:11 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on January 10, 2017, 09:33:40 pmHere we see why the DS1054Z "bug" list is so long - anything outside of somebody's personal expectationsmustbe a bug!

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2017, 10:02:08 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on January 10, 2017, 09:38:11 pmYou need to do some more study why equipment have Self Cal capability and why there is a need to use it occasionally.Measurements are affected by primarily temperature and the combination of runtime and ambient might not equate to the temp when equipment was calibrated and if this is the case that Cal will not be valid. Component drift from aging is another factor and why manufacturers recommend yearly calibration for traceable accuracy.The best we have between annual calibration for those that require it is a Self Cal feature to null these temp discrepancies to make measurement more accurate. If it doesn't one can only assume the Self Cal routines themselves are flawed.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2017, 10:22:53 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on January 10, 2017, 09:33:40 pmOn a scope with a US $25k list price for the basic configuration from a manufacturer with over half a century of experience with manufacturing oscilloscopes? I don't think so.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2017, 10:42:35 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on January 10, 2017, 10:22:53 pmDo you mean the same manufacturer that makes these too ?https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/agilent-dsox2024-won't-boot/

author: technix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2017, 11:44:15 pm
content: Since I don't use the scope too often, I think I am going to deploy an automated weekly or monthly self-cal.The scope have Ethernet connectivity so self cal can be initialized and queried by my always-on server. Just power the scope with an Ethernet-enabled power strip (so I can bypass the clunking power button, leaving it always on, and switch the power to it in software)I need to cook up software for this task, and set up a cron job on my server to run it periodically.

author: eKretz
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2017, 12:46:22 am
content: Quote from: ebastler on January 10, 2017, 11:05:27 amThat is true. I suppose my head is just spinning from the handheld debacle I'm dealing with. It won't hold its calibration for more than a minute.

author: mtdoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2017, 12:59:49 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on January 10, 2017, 11:31:47 amYes. This, absolutely.

author: mtdoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2017, 01:02:17 am
content: Quote from: eKretz on January 11, 2017, 12:46:22 amTo be fair eKretz, the issue you're experiencing with your Micsig really has nothing much to do with holding calibration. You seem to have had bad luck getting a Micsig handheld with an issue that needs to be resolved but it is not really a calibration issue per se.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2017, 06:45:40 am
content: Quote from: technix on January 10, 2017, 11:44:15 pmHey, glad you are still following this thread! Apologies for having spent so much time on the self-calibration, which is certainly not the most important topic to familiarize yourself with in your new scope.I don't think it is worthwhile to invest so much effort in an automated, periodic self-calibration setup. The consensus here seems to be that doing it once per year is enough, especially if your scope remains on the bench under stable ambient conditions.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2017, 08:14:23 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on January 10, 2017, 11:31:47 amI'd change the last sentence to "Everything else is using the wrong tool for the job".

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2017, 09:51:29 am
content: Quote from: technix on January 10, 2017, 11:44:15 pmYoucoulddo that, but it won't make anything better. Devices don't decalibrate themselves on time spans measured in weeks/months, it takes many years if it's in a stable environment.A much better action plan is to grok the idea that the voltage readings on screen are only approximate. Good enough to see if there's a problem but that's all.Use a multimeter for important measurements (aka "the right tool for the job").Here's some numbers for your perusal, taken from the DS1054Z manual:(I just saw a typo in the manual - "Analog channe")

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2017, 10:06:49 am
content: Quote from: tautech on January 10, 2017, 10:02:08 pmAny calibration needs to be verified. What if the internal voltage reference is broken? What if you didn't warm it up properly?For corporate use, don't mess around. No boss wants legal liability because some intern pressed 'calibrate' every day right after he switched on all the test gear.For hobby use I say go ahead and calibrate it yourself. Maybe verify it against a multimeter. Just don't imagine that frequent calibration will make the slightest bit of difference in real terms.Maybe you work in a place that's freezing cold in the mornings and baking hot in the afternoons after The Machine has been on for several hours. Youcouldcalibrate twice a day, or... just relax and accept that the numbers on screen won't be exacteven if you do that. You want exact numbers? Get a bench multimeter with temperature compensation, ie. the right tool for the job.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2017, 10:13:29 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on January 11, 2017, 09:51:29 amAnd I'd take that further, and try to get the people into the frame of mind thatallreadings fromeveryinstrument are approximate. The questions arehowapproximate, and what does the applicationrequireI have a suspicion that if someone measures voltages with a scope, they will also not understand probes, probing techniques, and the consequent lies you will see on a scope's screen.My favourite example is an expensive piece of test equipment with a resolution of 0.001dB but an accuracy of only 0.1dB. Guess which wasn't important in that application!

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2017, 10:15:12 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on January 11, 2017, 10:06:49 amJust so.That's why many instruments disable the "cal button" unless an internal jumper is in the right position. Good thing too.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2017, 10:34:52 am
content: Also: You might have to use somebody else's oscilloscope one day.Is that oscilloscope going to be calibrated?What will you do if you see 4.8 volts where it should say 5.0V?

author: technix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2017, 11:04:47 am
content: Quote from: ebastler on January 11, 2017, 06:45:40 amIt sits on my desk where sunlight can reach. So probably not that stable ambient.

author: Assafl
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2017, 12:00:56 pm
content: Be careful of ground. Consider getting a differential probe for ungrounded and higher voltage work (such as power supplies).BTW - One can utilize scopes, or a DMM, or any other device, for critical measurements (for example, you are measuring a single occurrence that will not happen again, or too costly to make happen again; or Need to refer to a physical property accurately like volt, ampere, ohm, Hz, SPL, lumens, etc. ; or Need great resolution for a very sensitive sensor).Usually these types of measurements are run against external calibration. The simplest example (for a DMM) is if I work on mains I stuff the DMM in working mains. I don't trust a 0V shown until I am calibrated at 220v. It is even better to go back to the 220V and validate the DMM did not die between the two outlets... (It is critical because if the measurement is wrong I won't be around to do it again - becoming a 1 time measurement....)Doing DC or ohms - compare against a fresh 9V battery (or better yet - a silver oxide battery) or a calibrator, measure a precision resistor salvaged from discarded T&M (in the same range as the DUT).One can do the same with a scope. If one channel is down and both measure 4.8V instead of 5V - then the voltage isn't a clue. However, if one is 4.8v and the other reads 5v - it may be (per Fungus' post). The second (working) channel serves as a calibration reference against the first.One can also work around limitations: If one is aware of the noise floor, one can raise the input signal for a good SNR using a calibrated amplifier. Use a mixer (properly) to work around bandwidth limitations, Etc. the options are endless...Getting calibrated readings can get pretty complex pretty quickly - I did lots of these types of experiments in the Navy - it was all about calibrating the T&M chain. The hydrophone, the B&K charge amplifiers, the parametric and notch filters, the scopes, the recorders, the HP TRMS voltmeters, you had to plot and save a bathymetry (and work the predictions), plan the test with the operations team so that you know distances and depths fairly accurately, etc. In the ocean, everything needs to end up as dB re 1uPa @ 1yd in defensible accuracy.Heck - eve a bad grounding scheme can destroy your test. So we'd calibrate the individual components and the setup as a whole for weeks prior to the live sea tests (and calibrate backup T&M in case something fell in the ocean - or decided to throw a tantrum) - Imagine the cost of redoing a test with a frigate or submarine because you could not figure out the SONAR equation...