How is it to work as an engineer? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: matlerbru
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: December 16, 2017, 05:16:02 pm
content: Hi. I have a question about what is important as an engineer.I am at my 5th semester, at a 3½ year long EE education.At my university the work is very project oriented, and focuses very much on working in groups.The group work has made me doubt if it is really what I want to do. Right now, I am in groups where other people are better than me at all the theory, a lot better. This makes me wonder if I ever really will be good at it.I can follow the courses and haven’t failed anything, but I never really get a good understanding of anything.I am good at making circuits, and working it the lab. I can get the most to work, and design things using the simple formulas from our courses. It is, however, when being in groups with people smarter than me I get the doubt. In out project we use pretty advanced simulations of control theory (in MATLAB), and for the others it is, seemingly, a piece of cake to do all of this mathematics, and models.So the question is:How is engineers working in “the real world”?Is it all mathematics and models, or is it also practical work, where choosing components and circuitry is a big part?I do know that it is very different for every workplace, but I just want to ask here, as none of my teachers can give an straight answer.I hope my question is understandable!

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2017, 05:31:31 pm
content: Quote from: matlerbru on December 16, 2017, 05:16:02 pmEngineering is, typically, a desk job. In most branches of engineering you are going to spend a lot of your time working with numbers, computers and calculations. The mathematics is the key to understanding how things work, and without the understanding of how things work you will have a hard time doing what is needed, whether it be design, test, troubleshooting or customer support. You can of course progress into less technical things like project management or sales, but even for these you should really have the foundation and understanding of the fundamentals to be effective.How were your mathematics skills in high school? If you were good at mathematics before beginning university then it may be that it's just taking time for things to sink in and it will click eventually. Many people have that experience.If you struggled with mathematics in high school, then it may be that a career in engineering is not for you. Engineering is, fundamentally, applied mathematics.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2017, 06:35:06 pm
content: Day to day electronics work varies enormously. There is no one answer to your question. Large numbers of people make a reasonable living with very weak theory and maths, developing code for MCUs. Sure, some MCU code requires deep maths, but most doesn't. There are lots of other tasks in the electronics industry which are similarly light in their requirements for deep understanding. They are, however, towards the technician end of the spectrum. Most of the deeper jobs require deeper understanding, which should be no surprise.You need to consider the kind of work you hope to be doing in a few years. If you see yourself doing lots of hand on work, writing straightforward code, etc. you will probably be OK. If you want to be developing the next generation comms platform, or pushing the limits of circuit design, things might not work out to your liking.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2017, 06:43:53 pm
content: As IanB said, engineering is applied mathematics. Most of us suck at math even if we can manage to work things out. Engineers tend to be 'hands on' people and they want to 'see' how things work.I struggled with differential equations because I just couldn't 'see it'. For the last couple of years, I have been playing with DEs and Matlab Simulink building up the equivalent of analog computers. It is really nice to be able to take the 2d order DE for damped harmonic motion, organize the equations the way Lord Kelvin suggested and then build up an analog computer to 'solve' the equations.See near (1) here for a discussion of Lord Kelvin's approach:http://chalkdustmagazine.com/features/analogue-computing-fun-differential-equations/His approach is all in the '=' sign. Put the highest derivative by itself on the left of the '=' sign andassumeyou have this function. Then integrate as many times as necessary to create the lower derivatives and the function itself and then multiply by coefficients to create the right hand side from the derivatives created by integration. Here's the magic: The '=' signs says you no longer have toassumeyou have the highest derivative, you just created it! Feed the result of the right hand side back into the left hand side, set up the initial conditions and hit the 'Go' button. I love this stuff!I also built up a real analog computer and modeling these equations is a lot of fun. I think I'm picking up a little more about DEs. Of course it has been 40+ years since I took those classes...I went to EE school for fun; I never spent a day working in the field. Mostly I did project management and some electrical work. I never liked drafting board engineering and I avoided it at every opportunity. My best work was done on a napkin over coffee with one of my contractors.

author: German_EE
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2017, 06:53:15 pm
content: 1) Engineering is frustrating. Your boss can give you a task, you can spent two weeks drawing a schematic, then he can look at it and tell you "no, we won't do it like that"2) Engineering (like everything else) is driven by the MBAs and bean counters. Expect to spend a lot of time preparing BOMs or justifying a 2 Euro part when to their eyes a 1 Euro part will do.3) Engineering is restrained by paperwork and regulations, everything from what you can wear (ESD problems) to what color of wire you can use.4) Engineering has long hours, this is not a job you can do 9-5 Monday to Friday.But, when you are sitting at your workbench with half a million Euro worth of test gear in front of you and you have to fix a 25 000 Euro piece of equipment using tools and facilities you could only dream of it all seems worth it.Me? I ended up spending the majority of my working career installing and maintaining elevators. When I started there were still relay controlled systems assembled on slate beds and by the time I retired the control system for an entire building was on a single Eurocard. I traveled the world and I had FUN!Welcome.

author: Tom45
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2017, 07:33:43 pm
content: What do you enjoy most related to EE? If nothing, then you may be in the wrong program. But if there are things that you really enjoy and understand, then you have a likely career path.Not every engineering job needs all of the knowledge that you are exposed to in school. Out of all of the topics that you are exposed to in an engineering program, you may only end up using 10 to 30 percent of them in a career. Another student in your group will likewise use only 10 to 30 percent. But not the same 10 to 30 percent that you will use. Neither the school nor the student knows what will be used. But you have all been exposed to a broad enough range that a fair amount will end up being useful to your career.Among my least favorite courses in college I thought I would never use Thermodynamics and steam tables, or motors and generators (we disparagingly called it dynamo science). I was right about Thermodynamics but wrong about the "dynamo science". I was working on controls for DC servo motors within 5 years of graduating from college.There is plenty of engineering done that doesn't involve the intense math. I once worked with a guy that was a whiz with engineering math. Way better than I ever was. And I majored in EE and math. But he had no common sense or problem solving skills. He didn't last long in the job.

author: matlerbru
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: December 16, 2017, 08:03:01 pm
content: I want to thank all of you for great and diverse answers.What I got out of it is that there is pretty much a place for every kind of interest in the field.As I understand some of the mathematics, and can apply it, without really understand the theory behind. Because of this I guess I will not work in cutting edge development, which by the way is not a problem for me!I truly enjoy working with electronics, so if there is a place for me, I doubt I will leave it!

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2017, 08:14:00 pm
content: Quote from: matlerbru on December 16, 2017, 08:03:01 pmI think you nailed it. A good summary of the diverse, sometimes contradictory posts -- and I'm glad to see the conclusion you are drawing for your own future!

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2017, 08:21:26 pm
content: People have different qualities. As long as your not dangerously incapable, there will be places where you will lack the needed qualities, and places where your specific qualities will shine. It pays to work on your weaknesses, but you also need to accept that some things come naturally, and others will be a struggle. If you keep at it and if you are honest with yourself, things should work out.

author: chris_leyson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2017, 09:23:46 pm
content: Welcome to the forum. It's good that your university course is project oriented because at least that way you get some important "hands on" experience. You're good a building things and you probably have a good intuitive grasp of how things should work and that's an important step in the right direction. In the real world I would say a practical hands on approach will teach you a hell of a lot that you might not get from theory alone. A lot of good engineering comes from past experience and common sense and that is something you gain from building circuits and when they work as you want them to then that's great but when they don't you've learnt how not to do something or what to watch out for next time. As for theory and modelling, it can be a lot quicker than building things but you still need the practical experience to tell you if your model is right or wrong. As a practicing engineer I would employ the person with the hands on practical experience.

author: rhb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2017, 10:50:37 pm
content: Mathematical physics is very important to electronics engineering. But it is only useful if you can apply it to a circuit design. And it is just an approximation to reality.At this point, I think one has to have an MS or PhD to really be able to grasp and apply all the mathematics and physics. I just don't see any way to learn it all and also learn the actual practice. As you noted, the people who are better at the theory than you are, are not as good at the practice. Unless someone got started at 12 or 13 building things, I don't see how they can learn all they need to know in 4-5 years of getting a BS.As a practical matter, everyone uses a computer to solve the problems.Read "Max Wien, Mr. Hewlett and a Rainy Sunday Afternoon" by Jim Williams. Jim had no significant formal education in electronics. But he knew what those little electrons were doing and why better than most. He is generally regarded as one of the best analog EEs ever.You should read the writing of Bob Pease and Jim Williams. Look on the EDN website. If you enjoy those, you'll enjoy working as an EE, though you might not like some of the places you work. Also read about Bob Widlar.The fact that you asked the questions suggests to me that you'll be very good and have a lot of fun.

author: IanMacdonald
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2017, 10:55:46 pm
content: Quote from: German_EE on December 16, 2017, 06:53:15 pmThat could be true of most jobs. I moved into IT because it was relatively free from bureaucratic crap.Unfortunately with GDPR around the corner that's likely to change.Unless we get out of the EU of course.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 16, 2017, 11:01:46 pm
content: Quote from: matlerbru on December 16, 2017, 05:16:02 pmThat's how you'll most likely to working in the industry, as part of a project design group.The "one man band" jobs were you get to do it all are the minority.QuoteMost work in he industry does not require a lot of theory, it's just the practicalities of getting the design job done.QuoteThen do that, become a hardware/build/prototype person. Specialise in what you are good at and interested in.QuoteIt's mostly practical, getting a job done meeting various targets. That's practically the definition of engineering.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 16, 2017, 11:05:10 pm
content: Quote from: German_EE on December 16, 2017, 06:53:15 pmYou can work on something for a year or two and then watch it get cancelled.QuoteYou're doing it wrong.Working for a big company should be almost strictly 9-5. If you want long crap hours, work for yourself, or a design consultancy.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2017, 11:09:26 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on December 16, 2017, 11:01:46 pmTeamwork in college is nothing like teamwork in industry. In industry a team might have a mechanical engineer, an analogue engineer, a digital engineer or two, a software engineer or two. Also, it will generally have a well defined manager. In college almost all teamwork is a bunch of people with similar expertise, and no well defined leader. The leads to a very different dynamic. The main commonality is there will probably be at least one freeloader.

author: Cyberdragon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 17, 2017, 07:16:46 am
content: QuoteThe problem with me is I can't stand people like that, I wouldn't last a nanosecond if you bean counted me hard enough. I mean sure, don't Juicero level overengineer things but if someone was like "we don't need short circuit protection", the only thing left of me would be the product sizzling away on my desk. I want to try to avoid consumer electronics, I would hate making crap for landfills. How bad are the cheapskates in the industrial field?Problem 2 is I'm OCD, yet strangely extremely disorganized, IE, I only care ifyou'reorganized. I literally loose all the screws to things all the time, because I don't reassemble anything unless it's working. Of course, it always needs a part I don't have, then of course, the screws vanish.

author: hagster
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 17, 2017, 08:13:09 am
content: You will probably spend most of your career working with smarter people(if you are lucky). These people are your greatest asset. Treat them well(they may not be the most extraverted types). Ask them for guidance(not to do your work for you). Listen to them. Learn from them. Expect them to be critical and dont take it personally.

author: Naguissa
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 17, 2017, 09:18:44 am
content: Quote from: Cyberdragon on December 17, 2017, 07:16:46 am1 - Do a simple schematic drawing in one paper by layers marking all holes.2 - put blue tack where screws are placed.3 - Put the screws in their corresponding place at papers4 - Store papers with parts when neededVoilàEnviado desde mi Jolla mediante Tapatalk

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 17, 2017, 10:49:14 am
content: Quote from: hagster on December 17, 2017, 08:13:09 amThis. Engineers generally lack tact.I have precisely, zero.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 17, 2017, 11:54:29 am
content: Quote from: coppice on December 16, 2017, 11:09:26 pmThe lack of defined leadership typically is a problem in a college situation, but don't expect the frustrations of group work to be totally different in a real job. There's still a lot that's surprisingly similar. I made the mistake of thinking it'd all be different, while in reality, it's mostly the same.Don't get me wrong, it's not all bad. On the contrary. I enjoy working in a team, but some aspects need work to make it work. It's still people with different motivations, skills, weaknesses and pride working together. Sometimes things go bad and then you'll need some finessing to get things back on track.

author: Jeroen3
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 17, 2017, 01:29:04 pm
content: Quote from: German_EE on December 16, 2017, 06:53:15 pm1) A lot of time you are forced to use ancient method since those are the only methods allowed by 3) or $. And indeed, you can work on a project for a year, only to have it cancelled and the good bits ripped out. Then remember, there weregood bits, and you have gained more experience and knowledge.4) Desk engineering only has long hours when you are by yourself or a small company. Field or marine engineering, there you will find your long hours. Because the job has to be finished yesterday.