New Agilent scopes - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2011, 11:17:27 am
content: I've had an MSO6000 since it came out - looks like they are basically pushing the features from this range downmarket. Don't know why they have chaged from VXWorks to WinCE - maybe the VXWorks license cost was too high. At least WinCE may make it easier for someone to hack the license crippleware!Why 70MHz version ? So Agilent can advertise a low entry cost product that nobody will actually buy.Similarly LAN and VGA as options , although I think this was as much about providing a GPIB option as anything else as they;d be stupid to include GPIB as standard. However they have a USB host port on the back so they could have provided GPIB via an adapter into that.Segmented memory "on a $1000 scope" = 'fraid not - this is an option. Ditto mask test.Why no ground coupling? - there is a ground level mark on the side of the screen so you don't really need it.Are you sure there isn't a hardware counter - the 5/6000 has it but it is a seperate measurement labelled 'counter'. You can even feed in an external ref freq for mode accuracy.I hope they've made the upgrade process more streamlined. Here's what happenned when I upgraded the memory on mine :Make enquiry on website. Get email asking to phone UK sales rep. Takes 2 days to finally get in touch. Had to fax order to them. A week later received Fedexed piece of paper from USA containing a number that then needs entering into their website to get the licence key. What a joke. AFAIK they;ve now moved all their UK sales to independent distributors - had to get a quote via them recently when I wanted to know how much serial decode costed (too much!), so I'd be very surprised if it's as simple as it should be, i.e. immediate online purchase.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 15, 2011, 11:39:24 am
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on February 15, 2011, 11:17:27 amMaybe, but there is not a huge difference between 70MHz and 100MHz in a practical sense, so if you need the scope for say it's fast update rate but not it's bandwidth, you'd just buy the cheaper one.QuoteYes, sorry, forgot to mention that.I really meant "a $1000 class" scope, i.e. under $1xxxNot sure how much those software options cost.Maybe you can do deals with your Agilent Rep to get them to throw in one of those options to sweeten the deal? Dunno.QuoteYep.QuoteI had no details on the software update process, and have not tried it.Dave.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2011, 11:55:11 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on February 15, 2011, 11:39:24 amAbsolutely agree about the fast update rate and it's exciting they are bringing this to the lower end of the market - fast update and intensity display are what makes a digital scope a real replacement for an analogue one.However I think the cost difference between 70M and 100M would be interesting to see - it makes no sense whatsoever technically, so can only be a marketing ploy, to provide an apparently low entry cost, and my guess is that upgrading to a more decent spec will make it look a lot less price competitive.Maybe someone should ask for some quotes and post them here...

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 15, 2011, 12:08:24 pm
content: The only pricing I got was the lowest and highest end, so I don't know just what the 100MHz option costs on it's own.Agilent - "Any colour you like, as long as it's optional"!Dave.

author: the_raptor
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2011, 12:14:06 pm
content: So we should look to buy one before they do hardware revisions to stop the free upgrade firmware?Personally I really hate software unlocks (like games that come with "additional content" that is already on the disc and is really just stuff cut out of the final game) and arbitrary restrictions so as to not annoy other divisions of a company. I mean a pre-defined function generator for $400 isn't really exciting. Allowing it to do arbitrary functions is what ties that function in with the rest of the o-scope instead of it being like something duct taped to the side of the case.EDIT: I loved the bit at the end of the teardown where you put it back together dave. In the middle of the video I was thinking "and how many hours did it take him to put it back together". And I didn't even notice any spare screws!

author: johnboxall
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 15, 2011, 12:56:42 pm
content: Also good to see the standard warranty for the lowest model has increased from 12 months to three years.

author: tinhead
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2011, 03:09:28 pm
content: until today Hantek/Tekway DSO was my favorite low end DSO.As a Hantek/Tekway friend i would say - for sure the 2500wfrms/s are not comparableto 50k on Agilent, but still better as on all others low end DSOs on the market.Of course they a 3 times cheaper (and hackable) and the core functionality is very comparabletoo (except function Generator and teaching stuff),but for someone having at least 1k USD budgetthe new Agilent is definitely the best choice from all DSOs up to 5k USD.The modules are bit expensive (i did found pricing on a german distibutor page, but not for bw expand), but that's typical for Agilent anyway.Even the full 200MHz model with all modules enabled is still cheap (if you compare what it can to what you will get from others),so yeah, i love it too!Rigol's new CA series costs almost the same, but if you look on the wfrms/s yuo will definitely chose Agilent,probably Rigol ppl are a bit pissed off now - the former "partner" Agilent fooled them.

author: Chasm
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2011, 03:44:41 pm
content: Since Dave can't tell the prices, here some I've found today in Germany:DSOX2002A , 70Mhz, 2 Channel: EUR 1000 + VATDSOX2004A , 70Mhz, 4 Channel: EUR 1500 + VATDSOX2012A , 100Mhz, 2 Channel: EUR 1200 + VATDSOX2014A , 100Mhz, 4 Channel: EUR 1800 + VATDSOX2022A , 200Mhz, 2 Channel: EUR 1750 + VATDSOX2024A , 200Mhz, 4 Channel: EUR 2120 + VATMSOX2002A , 70Mhz, 2 Channel + 8 channel logic: EUR 1550 + VATMSOX2004A , 70Mhz, 4 Channel + 8 channel logic: EUR 2100 + VATMSOX2012A , 100Mhz, 2 Channel + 8 channel logic: EUR 1800 + VATMSOX2014A , 100Mhz, 4 Channel + 8 channel logic: EUR 2350 + VATMSOX2022A , 200Mhz, 2 Channel + 8 channel logic: EUR 2300 + VATMSOX2024A , 200Mhz, 4 Channel + 8 channel logic: EUR 2700 + VATWaveform generator option X2000 series: EUR 400 + VATMask test option X2000 series: EUR 250 + VATSegmented memory option X2000 series: EUR 250 + VATEthernet / VGA module X2000 series: EUR 320 + VATGPIB module X2000 series: EUR 400 + VATMSO upgrade DSOX2000 series: EUR 570 + VATA Very Interresting find:"Training Kit Education" option DSOX2000 series: EUR 400 + VATThis is actually Daves beloved help function. So if you want it, you have to buy it.So the reviewed scope comes out at a current Retail price of 4320 Euro + VAT or about 4.5 times the entry price. Maybe subject to an additional "everything and the kitchen sink" discount.Which is ok, but I think that there should have been less emphasis on the "70Mhz, 2 Channel, without anything" price of about $1200. Or rather more emphais on the fact that the review is about the fully souped up version.Just for giggles and as a reference for future price changes, x3000 series prices:DSOX3012A , 100Mhz, 2 Channel: EUR 2370 + VATDSOX3014A , 100Mhz, 4 Channel: EUR 2740 + VATDSOX3024A , 200Mhz, 4 Channel: EUR 3300 + VATDSOX3032A , 350Mhz, 2 Channel: EUR 5200 + VATDSOX3034A , 350Mhz, 4 Channel: EUR 6200 + VATDSOX3052A , 500Mhz, 2 Channel: EUR 6500 + VATDSOX3054A , 500Mhz, 4 Channel: EUR 8450 + VATMSOX3012A , 100Mhz, 2 Channel + 16 channel logic: EUR 3200 + VATMSOX3014A , 100Mhz, 4 Channel + 16 channel logic: EUR 3670 + VATMSOX3024A , 200Mhz, 4 Channel + 16 channel logic: EUR 4200 + VATMSOX3032A , 350Mhz, 2 Channel + 16 channel logic: EUR 6100 + VATMSOX3034A , 350Mhz, 4 Channel + 16 channel logic: EUR 7150 + VATMSOX3052A , 500Mhz, 2 Channel + 16 channel logic: EUR 7400 + VATMSOX3054A , 500Mhz, 4 Channel + 16 channel logic: EUR 9400 + VATEthernet / VGA module X3000 series: EUR 320 + VATGPIB module X3000 series: EUR 400 + VATMSO upgrade DSOX3000 series: EUR 930 + VATWaveform generator option X3000 seriesMask test option X3000 seriesSegmented memory option X3000 seriesComputer Serial Trigger und Analyse (RS232/422/485/UART) option X3000 seriesAutomotive Serial Trigger und Analyse (CAN/LIN) option X3000 seriesEmbedded Serial Trigger und Analyse (I2C,SPI) option X3000 seriesAudio Serial Trigger und Analyse (I2S) option X3000 seriesfor EUR 580 + VAT, each.4Mpts memory expansion option X3000 series: EUR 400 + VAT"Training Kit Education" option DSOX3000 series: EUR 400 + VATNot too bad either, but the heap of serial protocol triggers stinks, especially since they are not that cheap.

author: tinhead
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2011, 03:59:31 pm
content: Quote from: Chasm on February 15, 2011, 03:44:41 pmfew hrs ago it was listed as free if you buy until August 2011 from a Education pool (so yes, not for everyone free).The Eductation pool price is anyway much lower, so definitely a really good choise for students/schools.

author: Chasm
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2011, 04:33:57 pm
content: It is free - if you happen to be an university or school.As in institution, Students do not qualify for this. Well, unless you call them up and get a different deal.Quote from: tinhead on February 15, 2011, 03:59:31 pm

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2011, 04:48:32 pm
content: Dave - have you opened up the VGA/LAN module yet?- would be interesting to see how much is actually in there!

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2011, 04:55:00 pm
content: QuoteThat's about half the cost for this option on the old 6000 series - don't suppose for a minute they'll reduce the old ones to match though...Just imagine the impact they'd make in the scope market if they threw all the options in at the entry cost...!BTW - did you take any high-res pics of the boards? If not, can you do some if you take a 3000 apart?Also, re. the differential lines to both ASICs - I'd guess one set is for signal and the other for trigger.From the change in sample rates you saw it looks like they've done the same as on the older series - muxed each channel pair, so on the 4-channel model you should get full speed on 2 channels if you use Ch1 & 3.QuoteThat's odd - according to theuser manual, its standard on the 3000 series

author: Chasm
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2011, 05:26:13 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on February 15, 2011, 04:55:00 pmThats pretty much depending on what they actually throw in, or how they price them differently if you buy multiple options.The way it currently is it is just ahugeinvitation for firmware hacks especially since the units are actually physically the same and fully up to spec. (Otherwise you could not upgrade any unit.)The only thing you can not update via firmware are additional channels (there are only 2 on the 2 channel version) and the Ethernet/VGA and GPIB module.It would be even more funny if you could introduce parts of x3000 series into the x2000 series. But to answer that someone would have to take a really close look at the hardware and the software. (Same boards but different parts is after all an option.)

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2011, 05:55:10 pm
content: Quote from: Chasm on February 15, 2011, 05:26:13 pmWouldn't surprise me if that's just a board with standard peripheral chips on - haven't checked if the ARM they use has onboard ethernet, but if it has, the LAN part could be little more than a mag-jackQuoteReading through the user manuals, there do appear to be significant differences in the 2000 vs. 3000 hardware. The 3000 has a hardware frequency counter, a lot more memory, higher bandwidth and more MSO inputs.Agilent use hardware acceleration for their protocol decode, which may explain the lack of it on the 2000 - a particularly poor decision IMO as you don't need a high bandwidth scope to be doing the sort of work for which protocol analysis would be useful.Wouldn't surprise me if the 3000 has a bigger FPGA inside to add these features - my MSO6000 has a Spartan 3S1000, compared to the 3S500 in the 2000. Could still be the same PCB but likely to be differently populated.The waveform generator is oddly very basic (I wonder if that's what all those LM324's are doing..!) A blatently obvious omission is a sweep capability - this would seem to be a no-brainer for anyone integrating a sig-gen into a scope, for frequency response testing. The only integration appears to be the ability to trigger from it.I really can't see any point in this feature, except maybe for the education market - you can buy a better sig-gen for less money than the upgrade!

author: tinhead
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2011, 06:18:11 pm
content: Quote from: Chasm on February 15, 2011, 05:26:13 pmnot exactly, for bw update you have to send the DSO to Agilent service because they will have to replace the mainboard :http://www.elektroniknet.de/messen-testen/produkte/messgeraete/article/75424/1/Mehr_Scope_fuer_weniger_Geld/So "only" MSO, WaveGen and soft modules can be enabled by code/hack.

author: Chasm
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2011, 06:24:45 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on February 15, 2011, 05:55:10 pmI'd spell it: "Future upgrades".The function generator is on the very bottom line of functionality, and i doubt that the "Training Kit" uses it's own hardware to generate the signals...Quote from: tinhead on February 15, 2011, 06:18:11 pmAw, ok. Seemed to be different judging from the review.Quote from: tinhead on February 15, 2011, 06:18:11 pmWhich are not that functional (function generator) and/or have a steep price-point compared to stand alone products.

author: Time
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2011, 08:38:30 pm
content: So do they not carry the 500 MHz infiniium anymore (my favorite scope I have used thus far)? Is the 3000 level its replacement?

author: DavidDLC
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2011, 09:39:49 pm
content: I'm ready to buy one !

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2011, 11:13:05 pm
content: Quote from: Time on February 15, 2011, 08:38:30 pmFrom what's shown on the website, 3000 seems to be replacing 5000 and 6000, but not the 7000. One 'downgrade' is the 6000 had 8M memory, the 3000 only 4M max, but when you get that high the difference is less of an issue.A bit surprised about the WinCE sticker (unless its an MS requirement) - I'd have thought this would put some people off, and certainly not make anyone buy because of it!QuoteWhich makes the 70M version seem all the more ridiculous. I wouldn't be surprised to see this get quietly dropped in a while when all the fuss has died down...Quote from: DavidDLC on February 15, 2011, 09:39:49 pmWell the Agilent site claims Farnell have them in stock. The Farnell website doesn't seem to agree though - maybe they're in transit, or Farnell are slow at updating their site - if you're keen it may be worth giving them a call - I can see the initial ones moving pretty quick...

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 16, 2011, 12:59:57 am
content: Quote from: tinhead on February 15, 2011, 03:09:28 pmI'd have to concur with that. It seems Agilent have really sewn up that market segment. Until the others try and pip them.Tektronix have a 40% off sale right now!http://conversation.fuseinsight.com/topic/serv/tW5wHvYYQZ0UtF1yFB-klXw8wNhQ2oKCmS08KNeZFpielX8_ZpA1iuXwahgWTdH5sqvgvHopiPhSuKw83O2a-k45CIT6YbUTzZf6LW9n_go./html/introQuoteThe likes of Rigol can't match this technology, and they know it, they just don't have the R&D capability and funding that Agilent do.Dave.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 16, 2011, 01:01:29 am
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on February 15, 2011, 04:48:32 pmWas going to do that, but completely forgot in the haste!Dave.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 16, 2011, 01:12:28 am
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on February 15, 2011, 04:55:00 pmThey could, and still make a profit. But they aren't stupid, that would ruin the huge profit margin on upgraded units and ruin the market for them and their competition. I guess it's kind of an unwritten rule that the biggies know not to piss in their own pool.QuoteI did. Will have to post them soon.Dave.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 16, 2011, 01:19:26 am
content: Quote from: Chasm on February 15, 2011, 03:44:41 pmI disagree. The exciting part IMO is that you can get this update rate and performance for $1200.You've always had to pay for bandwidth and options, nothing new there.The base model 70MHz unit is an amazingly useful scope in it's own right.Everyone wants something for nothing. Go and try and buy a 4 channel 200MHz Rigol and see how much you have to pay. Hint, it's more than 4 times the base Rigol price.Dave.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 16, 2011, 01:27:17 am
content: Quote from: tinhead on February 15, 2011, 06:18:11 pmI'm pretty certain that's not correct. I was lead to believe the bandwidth was upgradeable via license.Dave.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 16, 2011, 01:38:07 am
content: Steve Leibson has a nice article on the new scopes:http://eda360insider.wordpress.com/2011/02/15/agilent-knocks-one-out-of-the-park-with-new-low-cost-line-of-digital-scopes%E2%80%94a-very-competitive-entry-into-the-low-end-dso-market-and-a-perfect-example-of-eda360-design-using-end-to-end-designDave.