Sydney tower collapse fears - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: member_xyz
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2018, 11:07:46 am
content: Not really relevant to electronics, but may be of interest to some viewers.Must be terrible for residents and people affected literally on Christmas eve.https://www.smh.com.au/national/nsw/opal-tower-residents-evacuated-after-concerns-building-may-collapse-20181224-p50o4b.html

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 24, 2018, 11:48:22 am
content: This comes as no surprise. So many apartment buildings, semi-detached houses and even detached dwellings are slapped together without any regard to quality or longevity. Like with many things (Apple products excluded), you get what you pay for.In 10-15 years, Sydney like most other modern cities will have residential premises literally falling apart.Some people in Sydney are paying upwards of $1000 per square metre just for land, leaving very little in their budgets for the construction where it really should be the other way around.Thin walls and windows, poor quality materials and fixtures and minimal insulation is what you find in the majority of "modern" homes these days. A lot of people tend to go for cosmetic appearance rather than quality and substance.

author: Rerouter
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2018, 11:57:32 am
content: Yeah, Low quality materials are becoming more common in Sydney apartment complexes, even in the suburbs I've seen places where someone accidentally broke the gyprock and found no wall bracing, only some blocks of timber glued to the opposite sides gyprock to keep them both steady.Housing in Sydney is one of those things where you never get what you pay for, you can only hope to make something off the rise in property value and jump ship to the next one before it sinks or breaks.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2018, 12:11:05 pm
content: Cowboy builders, and inspectors who do not do the work they are paid for by the taxpayers, either because of lack of knowledge, lack of resources or from taking some "cooldrink" money. Not exactly unknown all over the world, and here there is an advert on radio that implies that if you use this particular cement you can use less of it as "it goes so much further".Some new buildings I would be concerned just leaning on a wall, let alone hanging a picture frame on them, because they have used so little cement in the mix, poor quality aggregate, less than the minimum required reinforcement, no brickforce, too much water in the initial mix, insufficient cure time before removing bracing, under thickness on the main floor structure and beams, and a whole slew of poor choices in construction. Plaster and paint unfortunately can cover a multitude of building sins, and one builder I know ( now in the UK), said even he would, as a cowboy builder, would think they were building on the far side of shady. Newly built walls, less that a year old, should not have the sun visible through them in the cracks, and you really should not have to wear hard hats indoors because of falling masonry.

author: Synthtech
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2018, 05:33:24 pm
content: Two years ago a building across the laneway opposite the rear of my business was demolished except for the front wall fascade (they do that for “historic” reasons to preserve to look of an old commercial structure) and then the workers proceeded to build a set of low-rise “luxury” apartments (maybe 6 on all) behind the fascade that were then sold at eyewatwring prices. It all looked ultra-modern and hip and high tech and expensive.I was amazed as I watched it all go up. It could be best described as being built out of compresssed tofu, sheet metal and Weet Bix with plenty of Gyprock thrown in and all held together by glue and staples. It looked like a 20 year building under the skin. There would have been very little sound isolation between the rooms, you would have had to run aircon 24/7 in the sydney summer and it was less than 6 months and the brown water stain lines were showing through the paint on the external masonry. I suspect that water leakage into the whole structure would also be a foregone conclusion. It was thrown up with very little care.

author: grumpydoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2018, 05:49:49 pm
content: France has had a spate of inner city buildings collapse apparently for no reason at all.Except, perhaps that at least some of them were built without foundationshttps://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/nov/07/marseille-building-collapse-fifth-body-found-in-rubble

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2018, 05:54:59 pm
content: This sounds like a really dangerous situation.I am really glad that they heard the sounds and that the building officials responded appropriately!

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2018, 06:13:57 pm
content: If I am reading your description right you're likely talking about fake wood composite materials which are basically various kinds of fibers held together with copious amounts of glue.That building may have some structural issues from what you're describing.Composites have become quite popular because of low weight and high structural strength, however there a number of important issues which they tend to gloss over. The most important one is that if they get wet, especially if they get saturated with water they can 'delaminate' and sometimes they literally fall apart, they lose all their structural strength/shear strength!The other is they emit lots of formaldehyde if they have ever gotten wet, indefinitely. One strong rainstorm while a building is being built, before the material is covered in some manner (that has to be done) is enough to do all this.In fact, even if they have never gotten wet during the construction phase (when it usually happens) and still have all their structural strength, they still emit what some consider to be dangerous amounts of formaldehyde. Its enough to be irritating to most people, thats for sure.Another problem is - they have a serious problems with mold growth, much more than real wood has. But the structural strength issue is particularly dangerous.This "delamination" is particularly bad after extreme weather events. After Hurricane Sandy it was fairly common to see the same kinds of damage again and again. many houses lower floor collapsed in a diagnonal manner because of total loss of shear strength of the lower story due to flood waters and some small push sidewards caused sudden delaminationFormaldehyde can make people feel ill all the time and not know why.So buildings built with large amounts of these materials (basically almost all new construction in some countries!)shouldbe mechanically ventilated year round. Doing that economically in a cold winter climate basically requires a heat recovery ventilator.They are mandatory on new construction in some countries but not in others.Quote from: Synthtech on December 24, 2018, 05:33:24 pm

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2018, 06:19:24 pm
content: Quote from: Halcyon on December 24, 2018, 11:48:22 amYou are right about that. This house (near where I live) is so fuggly that the real estate agent didn't even want to post a close-up picture:Yes. It is a metal box. The interior is even worse:It has been for sale for over half a year and it will probably be for sale for a long time. The new owner will likely tear it down and build a proper house.

author: vtwin@cox.net
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2018, 09:11:30 pm
content: Quote from: Rerouter on December 24, 2018, 11:57:32 amTo be fair could this be a matter of an improper foundation which caused a portion of the building to settle/crack, rather than improper building materials themselves?

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 24, 2018, 10:06:51 pm
content: Quote from: vtwin@cox.net on December 24, 2018, 09:11:30 pmOf course it could, but I'm just saying it as I see it.There are thousands and thousands of homes popping up in these so-called "modern" suburbs which are just awful quality for example internal doors are literally made of cardboard (they are called hollow or honeycomb core). External walls are thin and built so close to next door that you can hear your neighbours going to the bathroom. I'm honestly not exaggerating here.As you drive past it, all you see is a sea of grey rooftops all squeezed into tiny little blocks. A few examples of these "cookie cutter" suburbs is Oran Park and Spring Farm in south-western Sydney and Jordan Springs in western Sydney - it is truly a depressing sight.Here is a link to some aerial photos of both suburbs:https://www.perthnow.com.au/news/nsw/the-westward-expansion-ng-47c65b32e8fdc5b707f721b375681974

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2018, 11:04:37 pm
content: Same here, just they are sold as high value units in new developments, and the value of the unit compared to the build price and quality is incredibly high. 100m2 house with 3 bedrooms, build cost is around the same per square, excluding finishings, as that used to build low cost houses, yet they are sold for millions while the RDP houses, those that do not fall apart within a year or two, are given out for free. Density of the developments is the same as well more or less.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 25, 2018, 12:12:53 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on December 24, 2018, 10:06:51 pmNo ... No exaggeration at all. I've often mused when they build these houses if you had two bathrooms either side of the fence, you could pass the shampoo from neighbour A to neighbour B while each was in their shower. When you look closely, that's not too far out of the realm of possibility. Cats don't need to jump from roof to roof, they can just step over ... maybe stretching a bit.QuoteTree count, anyone .... ?

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 25, 2018, 12:32:18 am
content: In Oakland, CA (and many other cities around the US) there are a great many single story houses built on small narrow lots fairly close to the house next door (maybe at the most four or five meters between them. Many of these houses are built in the so called "Craftsman bungalow" style from kits that cost around $1000 at the time and they are really quite nice.It is possible to make nice small houses on lots of that size. These houses are a good example.They have aged quite well. many of them are worth a lot of money now.

author: SparkyFX
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 25, 2018, 01:02:25 am
content: Another video on the topic of poor quality buildings:Are NEW Chinese buildings really FALLING DOWN?Isn´t there any liability by the construction company? I mean there are plenty of cases in which the turnkey homebuilding went wrong over here and adjacent lawsuits take forever, but the average (private, planning for minimum 20 years) home builder over here would not accept such solutions.

author: nick_d
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 25, 2018, 01:28:40 am
content: My story is that I was working in the Netherlands for my company doing EE and software work and formed some relationship with colleagues, including this one family that was especially kind to me and that I've kept in touch with.When I first met them I used to go to dinner often in their inner-city (Diemen) apartment, a large 2-storey apartment in an older building that seemed to use a lot of concrete (at least based on what I saw in the public areas, stairwell etc). It was quiet and peaceful and well built, but also rented.So with much anticipation they moved to a brand new 3-storey attached house in the Polder about 30 mins from Amsterdam, the Polder means reclaimed land and basically if you have ever seen a "new suburb" you will know what the Polder is like. Beautiful to the eye, cheaply constructed!Basically it starts as a gigantic Government sponsored engineering project to drain it and either build dykes or truck in millions of tons of earth from elsewhere or both. Then it is parcelled up and contracted out to development companies that build roads, artificial lakes, rows of apartments etc.So I was very admiring of this beautiful new suburbs, the sparkling clean canals, parks and bike paths etc. I happen to remember they lived in "Islands Town" or similar and the streets were named like "Azores Street", "Maldives Street" and so on. To get there from the freeway you pass through a number of similarly but differently themed suburbs, etc.I was looking into investing there. Searched through lots of real estate listings etc, although there was not a lot for sale since they are sold off the plan before they're built. Those who did sell were the lucky ones -- I went back there recently and it was an utter hell-hole. It really shattered my illusions.Part of the problem is basically that all the houses are built at the same time and hence they all get that tatty run-down look at the same time (about 10 years later). Some, like my friends, had maintained and repaired, kept the strip of garden by the front door neatly trimmed etc, most hadn't bothered.I think what happens is when the gloss wears off, those who can move elsewhere, leaving a vacuum where basically drifters and transients move in. I'm sure it kills the investment.Give it 30-40 years and individual renewal projects will eventually improve matters, but I sure hope they use good building materials. Cement sheet often tends to lift and warp a bit over the years, ruining the neatly rendered look and revealing the structure for the house of cards that it is!cheers, Nick

author: MT
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 25, 2018, 01:38:33 am
content: I hope it will collapse and revile a biiiiig finical scandal causing unrest and turmoil and by so focusing light on the housing bubble thats going on down under! Well, not only down under even here on top we have a housing bubble, well all over the planet as we getting closer towards the planetary financial meltdown!This one is quite creepy the dude pooking away column cement is about 10 stories up in a 20+ stories building somewhere in china i recall, but not 100% sure.NIST and China gov column stress tests.

author: Gregg
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 25, 2018, 01:49:58 am
content: Quote from: cdev on December 25, 2018, 12:32:18 amMost of Foster City is built on land that used to be the San Francisco landfill; and before that it was bay tide lands which these days would be strictly forbidden to develop. Plus the whole area is adjacent to the San Andreas fault. It basically boils down to politics and who spends the money to grease the political machine. Sidney is not alone in the area of poor building and greedy politics.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 25, 2018, 02:00:00 am
content: Yes, I totally see what you are saying.As somebody who reads planning documents, it seems to me that when builders build neighborhoods of townhouses only meant to last 20 years that is entirely the planners intention for those areas also, basically to fill them up with something shoddy and temporary until the next phase comes along, at least it seems they think that way from the language they use.......

author: edy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 25, 2018, 02:17:12 am
content: I read some reports and they mentioned 1-2mm of movement of the building. How would they be able to determine this to such accuracy? Is this just an estimate based on the size of the crack? And if an internal support wall cracked, how can they be sure it won't sheer off at some point... This doesn't instil confidence. Another issue is that the property value now of this building is forever scarred.... NOBODY in their right mind will move in now unless there is a significant financial incentive (i.e. big drop in real estate value) to buy an apartment in this building. I am certain there will also be a number of people selling to get out. This is going to be a disaster either way, whether the building stands or not. I hope for the sake of innocent human lives that it stands... But as far as the economic repercussions, that is going to be years to sort out.I mean, look at the price of this place:https://www.realestateview.com.au/real-estate/1801-opal-tower-australia-avenue-sydney-olympic-park-nsw/property-details-buy-residential-11452676/$720,000 for a 1 bed 1 bath 1 car apartment? I thought Toronto prices were insane... this beats the cake! Who wants to bet that the prices in this building will deflate very quickly after this incident?Here's another apartment, 2 bed 2 bath 1 car and the listing if you scroll down the bottom has a bunch of recent sales and prices for various apartments in the building... all in the $700-800k range:https://www.realestate.com.au/sold/property-apartment-nsw-sydney+olympic+park-127955206Here's one for $935,000:https://www.realestate.com.au/property-apartment-nsw-sydney+olympic+park-128043754No amount of reassurance by engineers will tame the market collapse for this building. I'm not sure if they can sue or get some kind of insurance fund available to compensate for the drop in the value of their homes, or everyone is just S.O.L.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 25, 2018, 02:36:01 am
content: Money is the root of all evil.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 25, 2018, 02:43:30 am
content: Quote from: edy on December 25, 2018, 02:17:12 amLaser ranging and RTK-GPS - seehttps://rtklib.comand the home page of its author Tomoji Takasu, which you can find at the very bottom of that page.Check it out, its very interesting and you can do it too. For not that much money!

author: edy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 25, 2018, 03:02:35 am
content: Yes, thanks, laser-ranging and interferometry would do it. I guess my question is not that they can measure a change of 2mm, but what is the normal "error" expected when measuring a building or any such structure? For example, there must be various effects just from natural causes that can cause minor movement, swaying, error in accuracy, etc? Are they using another building as their original reference point? Some kind of surveying reference points? GPS? It just seems that 2mm is so small a distance that the error expected in measuring and surveying buildings such as this would be expected, even under normal situations.One other thing that I can't reconcile with this "2mm shift" statement is the following quote from this article:https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2018/dec/25/sydney-olympic-park-opal-tower-evacuation-51-units-deemed-unsafeQuoteSo can 2mm change cause door jambs of buildings to shift enough to affect doors opening? My gut is telling me that the tolerance of a typical door jamb and the ability to swing open a door is more than 2mm. Last time I installed and adjusted a door, I did not get out my calipers and get it within 2mm accuracy.... my door worked fine. So unless these doors are super-tight-tolerances, I can't understand what this 2mm shift is... unless the building moved 2mm horizontally/laterally (when measured externally) but the crack has caused the shear to move much greater in a vertical direction. Either way that is not a good situation.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 25, 2018, 03:14:18 am
content: Around four years ago a high-rise building collapsed in Pyongyang. Luckily there were a few minutes warning and many of the people got out, but not all.For some reason people had occupied the building before it was officially finished.

author: edy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 25, 2018, 03:45:01 am
content: Quote from: cdev on December 25, 2018, 03:14:18 amI saw some footage on the Pyongyang building and I can't imagine the level of engineering or safety in North Korea would be anywhere close to the same levels in Australia. Have a look at this footage of them building this place:

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 25, 2018, 03:50:35 am
content: The level of safety is not as good as Australia of course, but evidently it is good enough for the DPRK to make a huge amount of foreign exchange renting out their construction workers all around the world, especially to the Middle Eastern countries, which is a major issue because of the sanctions and because of horrible working conditions which they toil under. The government takes almost all the money they make.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 25, 2018, 04:03:33 am
content: Quote from: edy on December 25, 2018, 02:17:12 amYep!The Sydney property market is absolutely insane. A lot of places on the markets aren't worth anywhere near the asking price. The people playing those kinds of prices for shoe boxes seriously have rocks in their head, but the "fear of missing out" has set in big time.Once the market (in certain suburbs) collapses and people start to default on their mortgages, these types of places will sell for far less.Already some banks are refusing to lend against properties like this, because they know they are inflated and won't hold their value.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 25, 2018, 04:08:30 am
content: Watch out for the 'financial inclusion' scam, its a way to leave poor people holding the bag when they pop the bubble.

author: Whales
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 25, 2018, 06:01:36 am
content: Quote from: MT on December 25, 2018, 01:38:33 amThat looks like unmixed material (sand, agg), judging by the colour difference. Or concrete termites.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 25, 2018, 07:20:09 am
content: That is just them cutting the cement ratio down to whatever was left in the drum, and adding sand and water then pouring. you can see the poor cement is at the end of each pour, so they likely were using less than the minimum amount of cement, not using any extra in the last pours and recycling the wash water to make the last batch as well. Might come out the mixer looking like concrete ( though there is naff all aggregrate in there, or it was made with dolomite) but once it has had a few days to cure it will still have almost zero structural strength in it. Shows as well there was zero QC on batching as well, that would never have passed any sort of slump test.

author: station240
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 25, 2018, 08:11:30 am
content: Latest on Opel Tower.https://www.theage.com.au/national/nsw/olympic-park-residents-make-new-sleeping-arrangements-after-christmas-eve-evacuation-20181224-p50o5h.htmlInternal support wall on the 10th floor has failed.51 of the 392 units in the Opal Tower have been declared structurally unsafe, residents allowed to return to gather belongings.Some who's unit is safe to move back into, have decided to go elsewhere for now.

author: Electro Detective
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 25, 2018, 08:43:40 am
content: If it was me I would be deciding to shack up at the 'Easy Dollars Construction Co.' developers and shareholders mansions and their tradies urban paradisesThese are buildings that will never fall down, and safe to occupy till it all gets sortedHappy to camp out and sleep in the games and cigar rooms, and heated car garagesMyself and fellow homeless neighbours will look after their properties like it's our own,mow the lawns, gardening, cook, clean, check the guttering etcbag up thoroughbred horse pooand flog it for $2 a bagand walk the corgiesToo easy, win win...

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 25, 2018, 11:20:34 am
content: Just take them, handcuff them together and put in the shoddy building, with a portapotty per hundred, a single tap for water and feed them expired MRE's from the Russian army. Russia because those are in Cyrillic and you have mystery tins. Chinese MRE's would also work, though there I would prefer to give Chinese made baby formula and pet food, all fully QC checked and chock full of all the melamine and filler you can find.

author: edy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 25, 2018, 05:10:48 pm
content: There are apparently 350+ units in that building, say average price about $800,000 on today's market? I'd say get construction company to pay out $300,000,000 to buy everyone out of their units and relocate them. I'm sure they have insurance for this, no? Or class-action lawsuit? Someone took the profits for this... follow the money. If this is a new apartment, then most of these people are first buyers, directly from builder. So if the builder charged upwards of $700-800k per apartment they should be able to refund. What is the alternative? Wait for the thing to collapse one day? Can they get in and analyze the extent of the flaw and shore up the entire core of the building to at least bring *some* assurance to the remaining residents? Who can trust the situation now?I'm also not sure how you can still live in a building where 50+ apartments in the center core of the building are "condemned". How the heck do you trust the remainder of the structure? By the way, that video above showing unmixed aggregate "clumps" that made it into the cement is scary! Like someone mentioned, no quality control and the wrong formulation perhaps (not proper ratios) and not proper mixing. I see the cement processes here at local condo projects and they have special machines that mix concrete and much attention paid to making sure you get a homogenous and consistent proper mix for each batch before it gets poured. If you have a building with "Swiss cheese" holes in it composed of loose material, it is not going to withstand the compressive strengths required for all that weight. Scary!

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 26, 2018, 04:13:23 am
content: Quote from: cdev on December 25, 2018, 02:36:01 amIncorrect.Money itself is neutral. It's the attitudes towards it that is the problem - which is clearly stated in the correct wording of that adage.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 26, 2018, 06:14:47 am
content: In 2015 they changed the building liability laws and reduced it from 6 years to 2 years that the builders are liable for defectshttps://www.smh.com.au/national/nsw/home-building-amendment-act-sydney-apartment-owners-say-law-changes-are-draconian-20150113-12n57u.html

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 26, 2018, 06:26:52 am
content: Quote from: vtwin@cox.net on December 24, 2018, 09:11:30 pmHalf of Sydney Olympic park were this tower is a reclaimed landhttps://www.sydneyolympicpark.com.au/-/media/files/sopa/sydney-olympic-park-site/education/fact-sheets/web_fs_history_2015.pdfQuote

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 26, 2018, 06:33:44 am
content: Quote from: edy on December 25, 2018, 03:02:35 amYes, and apparently there were claims of door jamming in this building the previous months.Some photos of the damage:

author: Synthtech
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2018, 07:08:08 am
content: Building large tower blocks on reclaimed swampland. What could possibly go wrong?

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 26, 2018, 07:29:18 am
content: Quote from: Synthtech on December 26, 2018, 07:08:08 amIt was only supposed to be for the 2000 Olympics, and then they realised they could sell it to the developers.

author: member_xyz
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2018, 10:43:59 am
content: Update,Quotehttps://www.theage.com.au/national/nsw/absolutely-no-danger-developer-defends-evacuated-opal-tower-building-20181226-p50o9o.htmlReader comments at the bottom of the article.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2018, 11:25:49 am
content: Quote from: member_xyz on December 26, 2018, 10:43:59 amDeveloper made his money, the suckers who bought can go pound sand, the money has been sent through shell companies, and he thinks he is made from PTFE.Just like KPMG, still getting the fallout from doing dirty business, along with SAP.

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2018, 11:48:11 am
content: Quote from: Synthtech on December 26, 2018, 07:08:08 amJust drive more piles.Quote from: SeanB on December 26, 2018, 11:25:49 amI'd take him at his word, they are still heavily invested in the project. Less teflon, more fear of bankruptcy.

author: member_xyz
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2018, 06:33:35 am
content: UpdateAll residents now forced to evacuate for up to 10 days.I wonder where they will be relocated, whats the vacancy in 5 star hotels at the moment?https://www.theage.com.au/national/nsw/all-opal-tower-residents-forced-to-leave-cracked-building-for-up-to-10-days-20181227-p50ofi.htmlReader comments at the bottom of the article.

author: mac.6
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2018, 12:26:51 pm
content: Quote from: grumpydoc on December 24, 2018, 05:49:49 pmNot really the same issue here. These are old buildings (>50yrs) which were derelict and not properly maintained.Once water goes into these stones walls it's over, they literally fall appart.With proper maintenance these can outlives many recent buildings.My grandparent house has parts over five centuries, even more as a neolithic stone axe was found when doing some digging.

author: MrMobodies
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2018, 02:15:10 pm
content: I read about his happening a lot in around India and countries nearby it some years ago.Savar building:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013_Savar_building_collapseIt was designed for shops and they had factories in there and 4 floors were built withoutpermitany checks.There was a building in Taiwan that collapse after an earthquake.Some of the walls were filled with empty cans.https://www.todayonline.com/world/asia/photos-show-felled-building-taiwan-quake-had-tin-can-fillersThe build if over 20 years old and fortunately the developer was still alive for questioning:https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-35530722I don't remember and I couldn't find what happened to the developer of those involved in swapping the bricks for empty cans.Some experts think it many not have the structural collapse but it goes to show that it spilled all the cans.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2018, 02:51:19 pm
content: Quote from: Synthtech on December 24, 2018, 05:33:24 pmYou pretty much described every single family house I came across here in the US - coming from Brazil, where we get brick and mortar housing everywhere, my wife and I call them "lolipop stick and styrofoam" houses.This is probably due to the fact they are quite quick to build (which is a constructor's main concern), not durability (which is a homeowner's concern).

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2018, 03:08:33 pm
content: Quote from: Synthtech on December 26, 2018, 07:08:08 amIn many parts of the world this is done all the time. If you know what you're doing, it really isn't anything special.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 31, 2018, 06:42:02 am
content: There arereportsthat some people paid up to AUD$1 million for a 2 bedroom apartment in this building. I know Sydney is an expensive city to live in, but it seems either some people who bought in this building (and many others like it around Sydney) either didn't do their homework or didn't care that they were paying way too much for property. If I had a million dollars to spend on a place, it wouldn't be in that area of Sydney and it certainly wouldn't be an apartment.Here are some better examples of what a million dollars will buy in and around Sydney:https://www.realestate.com.au/property-house-nsw-wentworth+falls-129559182https://www.realestate.com.au/property-house-nsw-wentworth+falls-128739750https://www.realestate.com.au/property-house-nsw-box+hill-130026598https://www.realestate.com.au/property-house-nsw-windsor-130123002https://www.realestate.com.au/property-house-nsw-kings+langley-130016206

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2018, 06:50:21 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on December 31, 2018, 06:42:02 amPeople who spend that kind of money on that kind of apartment typically have reasons to do so. They don't want to live somewhere outside of Sydney or in the 'burbs. They want the location and convenience these apartments bring to the table.

author: X
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2018, 07:04:02 am
content: Back in 2014, some brainiac decided to build a new chemistry lab at the University of Nottingham out of wood in order to "go green" and soon enough, it caught fire. The one thing I like about brick veneer and concrete in comparison to timber is its fire resistance.Now a days, the wrong materials are being used for the wrong job. I recall working on a site owned by a bunch of cheap bastards who wanted a lot of work done in a short period of time and in a bodge-job way just to save money. Those particular cheap bastards were simply patching things up to make it sellable.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 31, 2018, 08:16:49 am
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on December 31, 2018, 06:50:21 amWhere this apartment building is located is very much the 'burbs. It's located about 18 kilometres west of Sydney CBD (by road)."Sydney" covers a huge geographical area about 70 kilometres east to west and about 50 kilometres north to south.

author: LapTop006
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 31, 2018, 01:52:23 pm
content: Quote from: Halcyon on December 31, 2018, 08:16:49 amIt's also a pain to get to, both by road & rail. There really are better options out there (not that I can afford any of them).

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2018, 07:22:07 pm
content: I love how this thread seems to have become "these people shouldn't have chosen to live here".

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2018, 10:19:26 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on December 31, 2018, 07:22:07 pmThat was a similar conclusion when a building collapsed in Rio de Janeiro many years ago: the common saying was that "we shouldn't be sorry for these people that lost their houses given they probably are rich".The building was located in an upper middle class neighbourhood, but most of the people had this as their primary house.In this case, it was found the bastard builders were using beach sand on the concrete mix. Despite the collapse only happened on the balconies, authorities locked up the building and was fully imploded a short time after. After many years of legal battles, only a small portion was refunded to all the families affected, given the building company quickly divested their funds and declared bankruptcy.

author: chris_leyson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2018, 11:08:09 pm
content: An old rule of thumb, an inch of weld will hold 1 ton when driving piles. If you're building on soft ground then your piles are going to move eventually, so don't build high rise structures on piles.

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2018, 11:13:35 pm
content: Everything is soft ground here and near water not evenly soft either ... more piles, deeper. If you go deep enough you'll eventually hit something more substantial.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 01, 2019, 02:19:02 am
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on December 31, 2018, 07:22:07 pmThe point I was making is so many people go into buying real estate, either as a first home owner or an investor, half-cocked, without doing their homework and making poor decisions. Take this crumbling building out of the picture for a moment, it would still have been a bad move.The median price for apartments in this suburb is currently between AUD$750,000-$800,000 (significant losses are predicted). Growth has fallen in this area in the last 12 months and demand for property is only "average" compared to other areas. Average rental yield is also fairly low at ~3.8% p.a. Most banks wouldn't lend in this area unless you have a 30% or greater deposit, in fact Sydney Olympic Park (and surrounding areas) is among 17 of the 300 suburbs in Sydney listed as "dangerous" markets.Back in 2017, Sydney Olympic Park was blacklisted by Citi Bank unless you were only borrowing up to 65% of the value of the property. National Australia Bank, ANZ and AMP Bank quickly followed suit. This has only gotten worse since the banking royal commission, with much tighter lending criteria implemented by all lenders.This is all information I found out by spending 15 minutes doing a little research and knowing where to look. If I was in a the market for property, whether it be a house or apartment, I would certainly be taking my money elsewhere.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 01, 2019, 06:54:35 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on January 01, 2019, 02:19:02 amWithout knowing what the situation and deliberations of the people who live there are and what they actually paid, it really is just wild speculation whether it was a suitable purchase or not. Either way it seems to be wholly unrelated to the worries about the building collapsing. There are many things home owners would have to consider, but a new project collapsing on you isn't reasonably on that list.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 02, 2019, 01:35:46 am
content: Are there any visible signs of the building's sides not being perfectly vertical from outside, any evidence its sliding or shifting on its foundations externally?If there isn't, its likely they could do a (probably expensive) retrofit like they do with old unreinforced masonry buildings in California and I am sure also elsewhere. It might take some time but it would give the inhabitants peace of mind they likely would appreciate.Also it would protect their investments.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 02, 2019, 01:43:22 am
content: From the reports I've seen, the engineers aren't saying anything to the outside world.My guess is that the powers that be will want them to identify exactly what is going on and work out a solution before going public.This is a PR disaster for all those involved in the development and they will be doing everything they can to spin the story of what happened as favourably as possible. I just hope there isn't so much spin that we'll have to issue a tornado warning.

author: aargee
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 02, 2019, 02:53:56 am
content: And it gets worse...https://www.news.com.au/finance/two-new-cracks-appear-at-sydneys-troubled-opal-tower/news-story/0b2a98337a137071d9f05fd412dfbb08

author: Rerouter
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 02, 2019, 03:18:30 am
content: It was always going to continue like this, 1 bad batch of concrete does not cause what we have seen so far. I do find interesting that they are now mentioning the problem relates to where prefab concrete meets the on site concrete,Who wants to guess which of those 2 didn't meet spec, my guess is the on-site stuff.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 02, 2019, 03:51:00 am
content: I noticed that their website lists more towers on the same plot of land, with similar looking designs. It'll be very interesting to see whether it's a one shot kind of problem, or that maybe the whole site may be impacted. If it's the design or building technique, they may have a much bigger issue on their hands.

author: Synthtech
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 02, 2019, 06:57:58 am
content: Sydney builders and engineers don’t have experience building towers on marshland. They have experience building commercial towers in the CBD where they are building on 400 feet of sandstone with shale beneath that, a solid, unmoving bedrock where they have to laboriously cut into solid rock to build the sub-levels. Generally all of Sydney is solid sandstone substrate.It’s only relatively recently that residential towers that high have become common in the suburbs and because of the bedrock nature of sydney generally it’s not common for building companies here to have to drive piles and put high towers on them. Because of that it’s likely that these buildings are under-engineered and the piles are too far apart.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 02, 2019, 11:06:02 am
content: Quote from: Synthtech on January 02, 2019, 06:57:58 amA lot of Perth CBD is built on what was originally reclaimed swamp.The old GPO was built on piles, with pumps going continuously to stop the water table coming up .I don't know if this has been changed with the advent of more modern techniques, though.The Burswood (now Crown) casino is built on what was once a city dump, again, very close to the river.The new Stadium, & a lot of apartment towers sit on the same stuff.Many years ago, on a working holiday in the UK, I happened to work at a big warehouse where underground water flow from the Solent river had undermined the concrete "raft" floor.The floor looked like a baking dish, as the ends which attached to the wall were supported at their original height, but everything else had sagged.They got us to distribute all the heavy stuff fairly evenly across the floor, then some guys with pneumatic drills came in & cut the part which was held by the walls free, so the floor ended up fairly flat.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 02, 2019, 03:11:00 pm
content: Quote from: Synthtech on January 02, 2019, 06:57:58 amIn construction it's common to purchase knowledge you don't have from elsewhere. Not having local experience with something isn't necessarily a problem.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 02, 2019, 03:39:08 pm
content: The whole of Durban where I live, at least in the city centre basin, and definitely every part within 2km of the harbour, is built on piling, and they tend to go down 30m to the bedrock when doing so. Plenty of high rise buildings there, plenty of them as well Art Deco style dating from pre war as well, and most are still structurally sound, though quite a few need repair due to neglect, but the foundations themselves are secure. Often new buildings are built on top of the existing piling, or they drive new next to them. Ground there is a mix of swamp, sea sand and all very wet.Of course the modern trend in building is to build cheap, pay the inspectors "cooldrink" if they actually do show up, ignore any building permits and do not submit plans, or amend them from when submitted and "forget" to update.

author: Rerouter
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 02, 2019, 05:40:31 pm
content: With inspectors the far more dangerous type is the 10% effort one,After my parents purchased a house that had an inspection guide saying all good, ... I went around the house looking at exactly where he took all his photographs from, and it was clear he had spent no more than 10 minutes doing a single lap of the property,Things like half the down pipes where rusted to crap when viewed from above. 2 walls where horribly water damaged when you looked under the kitchen counters, about 1 third of the support pillars under the house where damaged, with most missing ant capping. and missing things like previous insurance claims for large scale termite damage (the nest was still intact, only deserted after fumigation, about 1.5 meters squared) and most of the power outlets where not working because someone stole the copper.And at no point did my parents ever feel like going back to the inspector and saying WTF?

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2019, 10:57:46 pm
content: Watch out for soil liquefaction. Its a serious problem on land like that, if you ever have earthquakes. Take it from somebody who has been through two big ones. Its exactly what it sounds like. Scary as could be.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soil_liquefactionQuote from: SeanB on January 02, 2019, 03:39:08 pm