Dave Could you please talk aboout IC and it's pins and intterfaces? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / beginners

author: Gakex
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2013, 11:04:22 pm
content: Hello Dave I have seen your videos for a while and I like them, unless they aren't in my maternal language, I have been learning a lot.But I wanted to know about IC interfaces or they're pins, thinks like ICSP or I2C, or other interfaces could be interesting for beginners.I recently bout an Arduino and I get into it making some projects but unless there are a lot of documentation that could be overwhelming for beginners and only know the basics of that.It's only a suggestion and I think would be interesting for many people around the globe and could be an interesting series of videos...what do you think about that?sorry if I write something wrong

author: Stonent
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2013, 11:50:49 pm
content: To get started in Arduino, watch some videos by Sciguy14 on youtube. After watching his videos I wanted to go and buy an Arduino.Also HumanHarddrive, and Chickenparmi have some pretty good Arduino stuff.And since Arduino is just a easier way to work with AVR chips, take a look at some videos by patrick hood-daniel, he gets into the pins more.

author: Gakex
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2013, 03:50:46 am
content: Woow I have been watching some of this videos and they are awesome, that's the reason of my late rerply.thank youYet I guess It would be interesting some Dave's videos of this topic.thanks Stonent, great suggestions in this topic.

author: poorchava
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2013, 06:27:35 am
content: To get started with electronics trash the arduino and built something similar yourself. Yes, you will waste some components. Yes, you will waste some time. And yes, it's not going to be that pretty. But you will learn 20 times as much.Arduino =On the other hand, a communications interface talk would be rather interesting.

author: smashedProton
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2013, 06:51:26 am
content: He has a book now too

author: Gakex
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2013, 08:10:56 am
content: Quoteprochava what do you mean

author: AndrejaKo
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2013, 08:03:42 pm
content: I actually started that way, as my first AVR project (and if I remember correctly second electronics project, right after adjustable LED flashlight) was building a little experimenter's board which turned out to be similar to Arduino.Basically programing with Arduino, if you're a beginner, is just like living in a fish-tank. There's an invisible barrier that you won't know is there until you hit it. Arduino itself hides many, many problems and what's even worse, it seems to hide the paths you need to take to solve them.For example, one thing I often see Arduino users NOT doing is reading the datasheet, which turns into problem of fearing the datasheet. Yes, the datasheet is a big huge document that has hundreds of pages, and yes, Arduino can hide lots of complexity of that. Why is that bad? Well sooner or later, you'll reach a point where you'll hit the Arduino barrier and be forced to read the actual datasheet to solve something. That can end up being very problematic, since you'll need to go outside of your comfort zone and that's the point where many give up. Also did you know that manufacturers make mistakes when they build chips? There are separate errata sheets that document bugs on a chip. You should know how to read them too. Unlike datasheets, they should be short. If it's long, skip the chip!There's one more thing: Arduino hides a lot information about hardware from you. That's both good and bad. It's good because you don't need to troubleshoot your design and its bad because you don't need to troubleshoot your design. Dave said in one of his videos that he hopes that viewer's next project won't work. Why? Well you'll learn how to debug it! For example, when I made my first board, it just stopped working when I switched AVR from internal oscillator to crystal oscillator. It turned out that the reason was quite strange: I did not connect the chip's ground pin, but it still worked somehow.Anyway, I'm ranting now... What I wanted to say is that by making such board yourself, you'll learn first how to lay out a board (even if you do it on one of the prototyping boards or even a breadboard). Next, you'll learn how to connect components yourself, how to make a programmer yourself (which can be done for parts under $5, if you have serial port on your computer and under $20 if you need a serial card or USB to serial converter) and how to actually program the chip. Many Arduino users "killed" their Arduinos by erasing the bootloader (do you know what that is?) and ending up with no way to communicate with the AVR chip on it.So my advice to you would be to "bootstrap" yourself up. Get an AVR chip in DIP package. Make a serial programmer for AVR. There are tons of schematics on the net and if you aren't sure which one to make, make several. Don't be afraid to ask if you get stuck, but remember that you knowing how to ask a good question is a skill in itself that needs to be learned. No matter what you do, that will help you! If you don't have a serial port on your computer, get one! It will make your experimenting much easier. USB to TTL cable would be fine too and with it you can skip lever conversion.Next, do a couple of traditional experiments, like blinking an LED, "debugging" by serial port (that's when you send a message via serial port after every important step your program takes) and so on.After you get familiar with the simplest programs, make a USBASP programmer. Don't buy it, make it yourself! It's not complicated and only needs few commonly available components. Now you'll have a fast programmer.After that, try designing a simple experimentation board. You can even make it Arduino compatible, if you want and burn Arduino firmware on it. From that point on, find a topic that interests you and experiment with it.The reason why I put several steps before getting the experimentation board is that by the time you get the board, you should already have some basic programming, circuit assembly and debugging skills. You'll be able to gauge what's too complex for you and what isn't, which is another problem of Arduino users who often have unrealistic projects. I see many Arduino using "makers" who only think about the way they'll stack up the shields on their Arduino and if it so happens that they need two shields that use same pin, well that the end of that project! You on the other hand will actually know what's happening, what to expect, when using Arduino ecosystem is appropriate and when it is not. Also a very large number of Arduino users have absolutely no idea how libraries they're using work.At the end of my Arduino hate spech I'd like to mention that large number of Arduino guides promote bad practices which on first look may appear to be good! For example, they may use the hated Fritzing diagrams, which show you how the board physically looks like, but they do not explain the pin functions at all, instead of a real schematic! Often Arduino user try to ask for help and show those diagrams. As a result, other people need to look at the diagram and manually count pin numbers, manually look up pin assignments (on the other hand, pin description is common on the schematics), manually figure out the pin assignments on the other side and so on. All this takes time and effort and may distance people who are used to "doing it the hard way". The main problem with this is that it's often those people who actually know what the beginner needs to get rid of the bug. For example, last time I did anything serious on a breadboard, I had a forest of wires 10 cm high sticking above the board. Wiring diagram, such as the one Fritzing may produce, would be almost impossible for someone else to decode. On the other hand, the actual schematic took one A5 paper and was very easy to follow.

author: smashedProton
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 19, 2013, 07:41:06 am
content: Holy shit

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 19, 2013, 11:55:26 am
content: Quote from: AndrejaKo on July 18, 2013, 08:03:42 pmThis is something I've never understood, but then again, I find microcontroller datasheets more interesting than most popular fiction... if you're scared of the size then my advice would be to read it a chapter/section at a time; I am suggesting that you read all of one eventually, and although you need not memorise everything in it, the idea is that by going through it once, interesting things tend to stick in your memory and you get the overall layout, which really helps in finding where to look/what to look for if you encounter problems.QuoteCurrent was still taking a path to ground, probably via the ESD protection diodes (they're mentioned in the datasheet). But a crystal oscillator requires better grounding, which is why it didn't work.QuoteA parallel port programmer might be even easier, that's what I used. I agree wholly with the bootstrapping; it dissolves any notion that the programming process is somehow magic, especially with AVRs and PICs where the protocol is well documented in the datasheet. It might even be worthprogramming manually without a computeronce, just to reinforce this fact even more...

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 20, 2013, 02:39:23 am
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on July 19, 2013, 10:35:41 amVcc : the supply rail where all collectors are connected. (Bipolar technology)Vdd : supply rail where all drains are connected (cmos technology)Vss : supply rail where all sources are comnected (cmos technology )Star ground points. Useless. You need to understand where the current flows, how current intermodulates and figure out how to direct the current flow so that one does not impact the other. There is no general recipe for 'star ground'. It depends on the full system. Current runs between two points. Voltage stands between two points.Same for mixed analogue / digital systems. You need to check all pathways and direct current flow.I am working on abook about pcb design(not just pcb layout... Drawing lines is only the layout portion. The design aspect is the current pathway control, taking care of things like EMC , ESD, assembly and pcb manufacturing aspects.).The hardest part is explaining the correct wiring of a mixed mode system. I've already spent weeks chewing over the text on that one...and ive got probably another month to chew over just that aspect. Every block of the project is different (the book is written based on a real design. I am making a mini hifi 2.1 system with fm tuner, usb audio card, usb hub , ipod /iphone charger, optical out , graphical equalizer and spectrum analyzer and a class t powerstage. It has a graphical lcd as user interface and uses an offline smps for the charger. I deliberately designed this project to incorporate all kinds of 'trouble'.Rf design in the tuner, high speed digital in usb, differential routing in usb, shielded cans in audio, high power pathways in the endstage, precision audio in the equalizer, common mode rejection to get rid of the phones well k own 'prrt-prrrt-prrrreut' whenever it transmits to the cell tower. High voltage in the offline switching supply, safety and esd. Frontpanel mechanical design , flex boards , system level design , board layou for manufacturavility of both bare board as well as assembly manual and auto ated is i cluded. Mechanical design in terms of heatsinking, mounting, stress relief for hot components and many many other aspects are covered... I'm throwing everything i know, and the kitchen sink in this one.

author: MrAureliusR
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 22, 2013, 01:36:46 am
content: @free_electron That sounds awesome! I'd love to build something like that. First I gotta work out how to even fix my current receiver...I've always wondered about Vcc, Vss, and Vdd and free_electron just explained it all in 10 seconds. Awesome.I'm assuming that, in practice, even if two or more of those were the same value they should be connected to different rails? Typically I've noticed that (at least with EPROM) Vdd tends to be -5V or something similar, Vcc is +5v and on one TI EPROM I have the Vss is anywhere from +7 to +20V (if I remember correctly).