Impossible (cancelled with an apology!) - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Artlav
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2014, 08:28:42 am
content: A folding electric bike that weighs less than 5kg and can fit into a backpack.https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1181257820/impossible-0Looks kind of flimsy to me.Also, the pothole performance is questionable.From the comments, maximum rider mass is between 85kg and 180kg, depending on how you read the chinglish.From an electric standpoint: "The disc motor of Impossible is both lightweight and powerful. With ten 2900mah 10A 3.6V 44.5g batteries, Impossible can travel up to 12.4 mph for 45 minutes or at normal speed for up to 15.6 miles."Does that sound plausible?Off the top of my memory, a bicycle takes about 80W at 20 km/h cruise speed, and they have 100Wh of batteries in there.So the numbers add up if i remember right.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2014, 08:38:28 am
content: I can't see any brakes or steering mechanism. Is the bike supposed to pivot in the middle to steer it?

author: hamdi.tn
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2014, 09:26:10 am
content: Ok supposedly it run 15.6 mph how you supposed to stop this thingAnyway i don't know how ppl give away there money, i don't care either but i suppose they have to give some performance test. From mechanical point of view , i doubt this thing will hold in one piece for long.

author: Artlav
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2014, 09:51:56 am
content: Quote from: coppice on November 13, 2014, 08:38:28 amAccording to the comments, it's an electric brake - with the motor itself.Might be a safety issue if something breaks or the battery goes flat.Not a clue about steering.It kind of looked like the steering wheel is there, but it does not seem to connect to anything.Lean-steering perhaps?Quote from: 3roomlab on November 13, 2014, 09:10:41 amWhy should they?Lithium batteries are quite light, and i expect there to be a lot of variations on run time and e-bike size.Guesstimating 5 kg per kwh (lifepo4, a 350wh pack i have weight 2 kg), 10 kg of them would be plenty even for a drag bike or a go-kart.

author: Refrigerator
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2014, 02:23:25 pm
content: Quote from: 3roomlab on November 13, 2014, 12:35:55 pmI remember seeing police on segways, because why walk ?

author: sunnyhighway
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2014, 03:20:17 pm
content: Quote from: Artlav on November 13, 2014, 09:51:56 amLooks like the front ring contains two hinges.They even thought about placing the bottom hinge more to the front of the bike, making the bike stable when you don't put your hands on the steering handles.

author: Artlav
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 20, 2014, 03:41:52 pm
content: Recent updates:Motor type : Brushless DC MotorMotor power : 24v, 250WMaximum speed : 700R / MINMaximum output torque : 8.5N.M"The brake installed in the bike is an electric brake, it’s in form of a button not a hand brake as in traditional electric bikes, that’s why it’s not visible to the eye from the distance.""The height is adjustable from 65cm up to 80cm you can adjust it the way more comfortable for you between four given options 65,70,75 and 80.""The recommended weight for now is 85kg, the weight tolerance is up 90kg. For safety purpose only we do recommend not to exceed 85kg for now. And good news is we are already working on different models with different weight tolerance up to 110kg-120kg."Big question is, how would it perform on hills?Perhaps it's possible to do the math based on the motor power/torque and mass?Also, can anyone think of legal issues?The thing have no pedals, so might it get weird classifications in some countries, needing a licence?On an electronic note, how do you power a 24V motor from 10 li-ion cells?They don't exactly split into sufficient 2P pack, and 1P voltage seems excessive.

author: jc101
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 20, 2014, 05:07:55 pm
content: Quote from: Artlav on November 20, 2014, 03:41:52 pmFor the UK it may well be classified as a motor vehicle, but as there is no defined type/test for this, simply be banned. Just like the Segway is in the UK, despite an EU ruling they exempts them.The law used for this was written in 1835, as it doesn't have pedals it cannot go under the Electric Bicycle regulations. The UK is quite hopeless at sorting all this out.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 20, 2014, 09:02:43 pm
content: A human's peak power output can approach 2000W for an athlete but an ordinary fit adult can produce around 200 watts peak. Since an ordinary adult can cycle up a hill, I would say this can do it.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 20, 2014, 09:40:47 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on November 20, 2014, 09:02:43 pmI think you have something mixed up with your numbers there. 2000 W is over 2.5 hp. A human can produce the power of two and a half horses?I believe an extremely fit competitive cyclist may achieve a significant fraction of a horsepower for brief periods, but the sustained output is somewhat less.

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 20, 2014, 10:21:04 pm
content: At the end of this subsection:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horsepower#History_of_the_unitQuoteEdit: So a healthy human can produce 74.57 watts sustained power, and trained athlete can sustain 223.71 watts.Unless is metric HP, then 73.55 watts and 3*735.5 for the athlete.

author: jolshefsky
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 20, 2014, 10:32:05 pm
content: I'm glad to see it fully funded ... I'll be curious to see how it performs. I think the propulsion aspect is probably pretty sound, although I suspect the braking will be a bit underwhelming, especially in emergencies or downhill.The thing that gets me, though, is the position of the rider. I've made a couple wacky bike frames (see below), and if you don't get the geometry just right, it's a nightmare to ride. This one looks like the rider is leaned forward over the handlebars, making the weight distribution closer to 50-50 and making it kind of rough on the hands. The short wheelbase and small wheels are compounded by what appears to be the lack of substantial rake angle and trail making it pretty unstable to ride. Like the Spiral Bike I made below, I bet that when turning, you need to lean first then turn (if you just turn the handlebars, the bike doesn't lean on its own) and that makes it tiring to use (lots of extra muscle necessary to stay balanced.) All this is compounded at higher speeds and makes emergency maneuvers impossible.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 21, 2014, 11:26:17 am
content: Quote from: IanB on November 20, 2014, 09:40:47 pmHorse peak horsepower is about 10 hp. Most horses can manage an average of 1 hp.

author: Rerouter
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 21, 2014, 12:23:00 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on November 21, 2014, 11:26:17 amThank you for that, probably the only time i have seen the unit used on actual horses,

author: EricVanWyk
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 04, 2014, 04:10:20 am
content: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horsepower#History_of_the_unitIt is an interesting article if you are a history of units of measure nerd.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 04, 2014, 04:19:22 am
content: Quote from: tom66 on November 21, 2014, 11:26:17 amWatt's original definition of horse power was to find the output a shire horse could sustain for a whole working day, doing a job like ploughing, and then add 50% for good measure. So, a really big horse can sustain 2/3 hp for a working day.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 04, 2014, 04:24:54 am
content: Quote from: tom66 on November 20, 2014, 09:02:43 pmMost people can only cycle up a hill by changing to a low gear, and moving slowly. Unless this electric cycle can sustain its 250W at very low speed its in trouble on a hill.

author: jh15
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 04, 2014, 04:58:30 am
content: So a typical horse is a fractional horsepower as many motors are classified.Of course!

author: Rasz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 04, 2014, 05:18:56 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on December 04, 2014, 04:24:54 amthats the magic of electric motors, they deliver full torque from almost 0 rpm unlike combustion.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 04, 2014, 07:05:44 pm
content: Quote from: Rasz on December 04, 2014, 05:18:56 pmDepends on the type of motor. Uncorrected induction motors actually have a torque curve that looks like this:On electric cars like the Tesla Model S, the control loop is based on torque demand with power limit. So, if you press the accelerator pedal down, you get full torque instantly as the VFD frequency starts low and the motor control unit maintains a constant torque. A different accelerator position = different constant torque. As the speed increases the power limit is hit, so the torque rolls off to maintain a peak power at a given RPM.(An additional limit kicks in for the top speed limiting, probably related to inverter and motor losses increasing at higher speeds, necessitating a safe operating area be implemented.)

author: Artlav
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2014, 11:53:57 am
content: Unfortunately, it does not seem to go well.There have been no coherent communication from the creators lately, nothing at all besides irrelevant blabber.Key questions remain unanswered, promises remain broken.The only update was lacking any sort of details and had a single unrelated picture.All in all, something looks fishy.It does not feel like an outright scam, but that these guys severely underestimated the complexity or missed some really serious problems, and are now clueless at what to do.On the other hand, if they don't know how to solve a problem, then why push for funding? Hope it would get solved one way or another?Whatever the case, i scaled down the pledge to $5, just in case i forget to withdraw at the end of it.

author: Artlav
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 15, 2014, 05:14:30 pm
content: Another pair of completely useless updates, blabbering about how they are represented in the media, and a few CGI images.They did answer the "how about uphill" question - it's not supposed to go uphill, it was designed to ride around the campus.People in the comments speculate that the only video of it in action was made of it free rolling downhill, since there is no starting and stopping on camera.Neither is there a straight cut of it being unfolded, then used, so it might be just a solid look-alike that can't fold.In other words, it starts to raise many, many red flags.What do you think?Scam or ignorance?

author: Refrigerator
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 15, 2014, 06:45:26 pm
content: Quote from: Artlav on December 15, 2014, 05:14:30 pmStupidity and underestimation to say the least.I can bet my bottom dollar they thought of this idea and thought that they'll hire some engineers to do the electronics and stuff and live happily ever after.Then comes the problems when they want something and engineers say it's impossible or if it's possible it's super expensive, and the campaign slowly digs it's own grave.

author: Dongulus
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 15, 2014, 07:16:20 pm
content: I feel like the name "Impossible" was a bad choice.Likely they wanted to give it that name so they could set themselves up for some easy marketing slogans (i.e. "Making the Impossible, possible"), but I think they are really setting themselves up for so many obnoxious comments when doubts turn into accusations of vaporware.

author: Alexei.Polkhanov
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 15, 2014, 09:52:35 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on November 21, 2014, 11:26:17 amO, you know my horse is also 4x4, all terrain and amphibious and auto-parks itself back to stable in 10 min if not tied properlyIt has an autopilot mode that allows driver to get home safely even if he/she is completely drunk or incapacitated otherwise. It is teenage driver-proof, re-charges itself by eating grass of neighbour's loan and violently kicks headlights out if divers don't keep safe distance. It costs about $180/month in fuel and supplies. Now it comes with row of blinking LED lights along its tail.NOTHING on Kickstarter can beat that !

author: Refrigerator
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 15, 2014, 10:20:10 pm
content: Quote from: Alexei.Polkhanov on December 15, 2014, 09:52:35 pmYou forgot to mention that it also produces fertilizer.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2014, 07:31:37 am
content: In large quantities. Seemingly about double the amount of fertiliser than the feed that went in though.

author: Neilm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2014, 06:35:36 pm
content: Quote from: Refrigerator on December 15, 2014, 10:20:10 pmWell, if it produces a lot of fertilizer if has a future in management.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2014, 06:37:05 pm
content: Quote from: Neilm on December 16, 2014, 06:35:36 pmIt cannot be in management, it has actual horse sense.Now, if it was a bull...................

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2014, 06:54:38 am
content: Quote from: 3roomlab on December 19, 2014, 06:33:01 amThat's actually cool !Firewheel Test Unicycle eWheel.net Electric Self-Balancing Technology in USA Airwheel RockwheelAnd another:where were these things hiding? Seems there are a lot of them, maybe battery life is not that great.Argh no video embedding allowed in the youtube demo

author: Artlav
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2014, 10:56:51 am
content: Hm...Now that is a first (that i'm aware of) - project cancelled, with an apology and explanation of underestimation.QuoteSo, odds are that they were in fact honest but clueless, and not intentionally scamming anyone (or that's what they want us to think).Regrettable, since that was a good concept, but also good, since no one is going to lose tons of money on a doomed project.