New kickstarter - Voltera - Print - Paste - and toast :) your prototype board - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: kaz911
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2015, 02:47:40 pm
content: And another Kickstarter for the EE's (maybe)The Voltera - a circuit printer that prints conductive ink on FR4 - and with isolation ink can do dual layer boards (from standard dual layer schematics - conversion done in software)Once printed it can apply solder paste - - you then place the components - after which it can bake it (reflow) it at up to 250 degrees. No pick and place though *G*Looks neat for quick prototyping if you don't like breathing to much acid.https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/voltera/voltera-your-circuit-board-prototyping-machineedit: They blasted to $74.000 - $4.000 past their goal in 45 minutes...

author: mikerj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2015, 06:12:12 pm
content: Looks very neat. I do wonder how strong the bond between the ink and the board is though, would be annoying to have components fall off a prototype board after a little knock or slight flex of the board.

author: electr_peter
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 10, 2015, 07:07:09 pm
content: If it works as good as they claim, it could be useful for some prototyping work.However, I see one issue. What is the point to test PCB layout with such "simulation" when you don't have a real 2 layer PCB with tracks/vias/soldermask/silkscreen/...?

author: rthorntn
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 11, 2015, 12:45:21 am
content: The main issue for me is the fact that you cannot use the Voltera reflow function on a board with Voltera printed traces. As far as I can gather they need to work out how to stop the printed traces from being impacted by the heat, from the comments:"You can solder components onto a printed board no problem. You can also dispense solder paste onto fabricated boards, place the components, and the printer will reflow them…Hence, eliminating the need for stencils.We have had some success reflowing onto our printed boards, however it is still not in a state that we feel comfortable supporting our backers with. However, it is not a problem we may not be able to solve. We are actively working in the chemistry lab to get the reflow standards up to par so that we can confidently support this feature too!"

author: lutkeveld
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 11, 2015, 05:13:56 pm
content: Out of reach for me, hoping the local fablab will buy one

author: edavid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 11, 2015, 07:05:57 pm
content: People are really buying a pig in a poke since they haven't published a price for the ink cartridges. It seems like the ink cost will be around $5 (?) for a 5x7cm board, but I wonder how much clog clearing and general ink waste will be involved. What happens if it ends up costing $20 for a board? Or if they stop selling the ink after a year?

author: kaz911
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 12, 2015, 02:51:07 am
content: Quote from: edavid on February 11, 2015, 07:05:57 pmIf I cut the "processing" time down on etch-a-sketch - and don't need to handle the acid all the time - it is worth $5 - even $10 in total material cost....I did back as a section 2 early bird - but there is still about 29 days left to reverse the decision if questions like prices does not get answered.

author: mazurov
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 12, 2015, 04:49:41 am
content: The opening sentence of their pitchQuotetells me that they are not even trying to appeal to reasonable people. Like most ads they're selling promise of happiness to those who don't know any better.

author: electr_peter
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 12, 2015, 09:07:36 am
content: In The Amp Hour 236 Chris and Dave talked about it. Main points - 1) you essentially have to build something different (in comparison to real PCB) to use that thing (massive time investment for low gain), 2) for the price you can get excellent quick prototype PCB service for many boards (why bother with something else?). Otherwise looks good.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 12, 2015, 09:16:07 am
content: Quote from: electr_peter on February 10, 2015, 07:07:09 pmIt's a niche requirement area. You have to think about laying your boards out differently in order to use this thing, so not as easy as "just press print" like they claim.There is little comparison between these printed boards and proper professional PCB that can be had for as little as $5.You trading of the time convenience for having to lay our your board different, less robust, lack through hole parts etc.People think this thing fills a need they think they have, but most are wrong.But yeah, it's neat, and potentially a cool way to get quick protos.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 12, 2015, 09:19:09 am
content: Quote from: mazurov on February 12, 2015, 04:49:41 amThat's my problem with this thing (and other PCB printers).They market it as a real replacement for getting a real board made. They really do think it solves everyone's problem of PCB lead time. It's not even close.The way I look at it is it's simply neater way to prototype compared to veroboard or dead bug etc, but beign honest about that would not sell units, you have to sell the dream.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 12, 2015, 09:22:32 am
content: Quote from: rthorntn on February 11, 2015, 12:45:21 amThen what is the point of having that capability at all?

author: Howardlong
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 12, 2015, 09:53:13 am
content: I can see the convenience, but once you've had some experience of making your own boards using conventional methods and have perfected your process, you can turn them round pretty quickly. I don't use a dedicated place to do my own boards, I use the kitchen (taking care not to etch the sink, you don't do that more than once!) and from start to finish it takes me half an hour to fab a single sided board. That includes getting the chemicals out, UV exposure, developing, etching, resist stripping and clearing it all away again. I can go down to 0.4mm pitch.But the trick is to have a process, and itwilltake several attempts to get it right, so don't be afraid of failure, it is a learning thing. Also always use the same raw materials, especially the pre-sensitised boards.

author: electr_peter
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 12, 2015, 10:10:26 am
content: Aside from solderability on printed traces question, what do you think about single side only printing? They claim to take gerbers of 2 layer PCB and print it on a single layer (with some non-conductive ink for bridges). That would mean that:initial board has to very sparse to fit everything on one sidesome packages have to be mounted dead-bug style (or swap the pins)Thus, for most applications finished board would look like something complete different in comparison to equivalent normal 2 layer PCB. User also has to layout 2 boards - one normal 2 layer PCB and one "single" layer PCB (twice the time and twice the work).To me this idea starts to seem like an elaborate alternative to breadboarding/home made board. It may work, but it is not a PCB.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 12, 2015, 11:07:07 am
content: Quote from: electr_peter on February 12, 2015, 10:10:26 amCorrect. That's the same point I was making on the Amp Hour.

author: iampoor
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 12, 2015, 08:04:00 pm
content: The marketing of this is targetted twards people who have never laid out a board in their life I think.Plus no mention of the cost of their machine. ELecrow will do 10 10cm by 10cm boards for 15$. Get dhl shipping and the turnaround time is 1 week (to the USA)This machine seems like a hopeless toy for people who hate veroboard! By the time I make a schematic, lay out the board, and then print it, I could of already made it! I could see the benefit of doing a complex board on this, but good luck when you can only do single sided boards.Oh......and they seem to have conveniently forgotten you cant use through hole parts.

author: FrankenPC
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 13, 2015, 04:49:10 am
content: This has a high neat factor. I'm going to put on rose colored glasses and imagine this might be a cool new avenue that future (CHEAPER) generations will find a place on my bench.Adding a small drill/router bit to the carriage so it can cut out holes and shapes prior to printing the paste would greatly add to it's value.

author: kaz911
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 14, 2015, 04:30:26 am
content: Quote from: iampoor on February 12, 2015, 08:04:00 pmyes you can get them for $10 - but where I live - it is terrible for shipping. My total cost for the $15 boards would be $45 with DHL.Shipping with postal services are a gamble as parcels might get lost (50/50 chance at best).Where I am it is also almost impossible to get things like acid for doing boards. Getting solder paste can be hard (most sellers don't stock so 6+ weeks delivery time unless you will take their 1+ year out of date paste of their hands) - so I have to import myself and got myself a "Hazardous Material Import License"I am considering getting a mill vs the Voltera - but Othermill is twice the price (plus they don't ship outside of the USA) - if I ship it through my FF shipping will add another $200'ish to the price.So who has any better suggestion? Still got 26 days to change.... And the only reason I'm considering it is I'm tired of feeling the acid fumes. I can feel it on my teeth after 3 minutes in a well ventilated room even when wearing a mask.

author: mux
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2015, 06:55:49 pm
content: Quote from: kaz911 on February 14, 2015, 04:30:26 amThat's still pretty awesome, though. Not even 7 years ago I had to pay €600 for a 4-layer board with 5-day shipping (7 actual days turnaround). 3 years ago I had to pay €60 JUST for the board, without shipping. Now I can get everything, fast, good quality, for €45-55. And even the slow boat isn't that slow, if you really want the board to be dirt cheap.QuoteI use chinese manufacturers for my business, NEVER had a single board go missing in 100+ orders. This may be a local issue.QuoteIf you need a general purpose prototyping tool, there is no substitute for PCB mills. Get an LPKF, othermill, whatever. Just in the past 6 months I've seen 3 sub-€2000 second hand LPKF machines on our national second hand website (Marktplaats.nl), plus a university getting rid of their old machine for less than €1000 including mill bits. If you look around you can get a good deal. There are tons of these machines around.Do keep in mind though, that as with Voltera: it's not nearly as cheap as chinese PCBs. You break/blunt on average one mill bit (€90+) for every one or two euro card sized boards. The bare copper clad boards aren't necessarily cheap either, but you do have the added choice in copper thickness.Also, the older machines need to have a special computer (something that runs DOS and the specific version of their piece of absolute shit software) as well as usually a high-suction vacuum cleaner to function. So there are minor extra costs.

author: rs20
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2015, 12:28:46 am
content: Print, paste and reflow your boards?? More like printORpaste and reflow your boards...I just don't understand why people feel the need to lie like this. This would have been moderately interesting if they just focussed on the multilayer printing part (is there any limit to how many layers it can lay down? fascinating possibilities...) but they stuck to their initial spec, even when they failed to achieve it, choosing to lie by omission instead. Compromise is at the core of engineering; lying is at the core of marketing.

author: hamdi.tn
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2015, 10:30:19 pm
content: I like the idea , and i think the THT and 2 layer is not a big deal , since i guess you can drill a board fill the hole with the conductive ink and print the circuit twice , one layer at the time on different side with no need to the non conductive ink. but what i think it may be a problem is how good is that conductive ink so it can't cause any problem for some serious frequency range. and how hard this ink stick to the board and will not be damaged by excessive rework and soldering on the pad.

author: kaz911
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2015, 07:48:38 pm
content: The Voltera Team just won the James Dyson Award for 2015 - Congrats!The latest update -https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/voltera/voltera-your-circuit-board-prototyping-machine/posts/1395370and they announced beta version of "reflow" with/on their own material - so now you can (in beta) print the design - manually place components - then reflow. That was one of the " criticized issues " in original "design"counting the days.. First batch shipping next week they say (5 cheap and 20 v expensive printers) - I have one in the cheap 2nd batch in about 3 months? time (was scheduled for January but with a bit of delay - but not too bad for a kickstarter at all)

author: snoopy
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2015, 11:47:35 pm
content: Wasn't there an australian kickstarter campaign that did a similar thing but using ink jet cartridges ?But what about drilling holes for through hole components ?They should forget about the pcb side of it. Just focus on solder paste dispensing and pick and place on existing pcb's. Now that would be a great prototyping product

author: FireFlower
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2015, 04:40:38 am
content: Hmmmm... could we hack just those print heads to work with out own self build CRC machines?

author: FrankT
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 28, 2015, 09:35:19 pm
content: A first look on hackaday...http://hackaday.com/2015/11/20/review-voltera-v-one-pcb-printer/

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 30, 2015, 03:28:40 pm
content: Yeah, like James Dyson really can't afford to get PCBs made next-day.....

author: RobertBG
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 08, 2015, 08:29:39 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on November 30, 2015, 03:28:40 pmTrue but that's not what the award is aboutAt first I was really excited about this but the more I've looked into it the less practical it is for me at this point in time.While it can be argued that it's not of much use to a serious engineer or hobbyist I can see it really helping some of the younger generation get and stay involved in electronics.It would be a real shame if this turned out to be a one trick pony,I think they could in time make it into something great.Lately it can be argued that things are getting further and further away from the hobbyist level and more specialized compared to how things where in the 80's.Products such as this could really open doors and possibly fuel a resurgence on the hobby level.Similar to what modern 3d printers have done for the average hobbyist.The "I want it now" generation really wants a point and click solution for just about everything and waiting for boards and parts really could turn some away,being able to click print till they get it right instead of turn around time for a few boards should keep more than a few from getting discouraged.I also wouldn't mind being able to find a real electronics/hobby shop too but that's a whole different issue.This is not for everyone but it definitely has its place and hopefully leads to better things for us all in the future.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2015, 11:44:55 pm
content: I noticed on the specs that the reflow function requires the use of bismuth solder. I'm not an expert like you guys, but isn't that kinda... suboptimal for most situations?

author: edavid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2015, 12:48:17 am
content: Quote from: tooki on December 10, 2015, 11:44:55 pmWhere did you find that? Does bismuth solder paste really exist?

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2015, 05:34:16 pm
content: Quote from: edavid on December 11, 2015, 12:48:17 amhttp://voltera.io/index.html#specsMaybe they're having it custom made.

author: mux
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 15, 2015, 09:48:29 pm
content: Wood's metal solder or Bismuth solder is fairly available:http://www.ebay.com/itm/Roses-metal-Rose-metal-Bismuth-Lead-Tin-alloy-100-g-LOW-MELTING-SOLDER-/281801724005?hash=item419cb11065:g:JJwAAOSwKIpV-Zo0It's a very, very soft metal that you can literally just put in a mortar and pestle, grind into a paste-like consistency, add flux and you have solder paste. Even a bit cheaper than regular solder paste that way. Alternatively, I've seen people make microbeads by heating it up in a syringe and squirting it out, creating a stream of small beads.

author: rs20
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 15, 2015, 11:14:40 pm
content: Quote from: mux on December 15, 2015, 09:48:29 pmThis doesn't sound like an ideal solder! Especially for surface mount components, solder is of mechanical importance...

author: kaz911
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 14, 2016, 03:48:55 pm
content: Voltera has updated specs. Gone is the "isolated ink" - in is true dual sided print.1. So do side 1 (print & bake)2. Drill holes for VIA's3. Cover already printed side with masking tape4. Manually push in the "track" paste into via holes from "blank side"5. Remove tape - and print side 26. Bake (after which you should have fully functional VIA's7. Deposit solder paste8. Deposit components9. Reflow on VolteraDONE.https://youtu.be/iMqxk5a3u0QUpdate here:https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/voltera/voltera-your-circuit-board-prototyping-machine/posts/1546761

author: Kean
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 14, 2016, 04:28:45 pm
content: It sounds like it relies heavily on their template boards with known features on both sides for accurate alignment. An expensive solution, but still quite neat and pretty fast turn around which has educational value. And I guess you could always get you own custom templates made in advance if you have some specific layouts you want to use. Or possibly someone will make a hack to use some "known" but manually drilled holes for alignment from one side to the other.I did like the idea of multiple layers on a single side by printing the insulator material (like old school remote control and calculators). It doesn't quite match today's real PCB manufacturing though, but again it could be used in creative ways, for small runs.Of course my recent designs are using even smaller parts than before (many 0402, and devices that rely on thermal pads) so this would be pretty useless for me, and many other professionals. I did back the project, but only to get a ruler.

author: edavid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 14, 2016, 04:37:38 pm
content: Quote from: Kean on April 14, 2016, 04:28:45 pmNo, you don't have to use template boards at all.P.S. Have they ever said how much the ink is going to cost?

author: Kean
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 14, 2016, 04:45:25 pm
content: Quote from: edavid on April 14, 2016, 04:37:38 pmThen I must be missing something - how does it align top to bottom?In the video they mention that the template has "premade features" - i.e the Arduino header pins - that need to be probed for alignment.So when you turn a non-template board over, what does it probe to do the alignment? You have to include some alignment vias I guess.Quote from: edavid on April 14, 2016, 04:37:38 pmI think so, at least an estimate, but that was so long ago it doesn't mean much. No pricing for consumable on their website, but you can order a machine!

author: voltera
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: April 19, 2016, 07:13:14 pm
content: Hey everyone, thanks for all the thoughts and feedback! We really appreciate hearing what you think.As for 2-sided boards, you don't need a template board at all. The printer will orient itself to the location of your drilled pads rather than templated vias. You need to manually locate two drilled holes on the board using the probe, then the printer will orient itself to the rest of the board based on the location of your initial two holes.I hope that's helpful. Let me know if we can ever be of assistance!- Kelly

author: eeadata
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 19, 2016, 07:35:08 pm
content: What about robustness ? Durability ?BTW (i hate arduino )

author: voltera
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: April 19, 2016, 08:06:04 pm
content: Quote from: eeadata on April 19, 2016, 07:35:08 pmHi Eeadata,One of our batch 1 Kickstarter backers printed a board and tried to destroy it and wasn't able to scrape the traces off the board. We are currently undergoing lifetime testing of the ink under constant load in-house, and we are at the 4 month mark without seeing any degradation in ink quality. That said, these boards are meant to be prototype boards and not meant to replace mass manufactured PCBs.- Kelly

author: eeadata
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 19, 2016, 08:30:35 pm
content: Thanks For reply.i asked robustness for soldering termal stress , surface corrosion etc . not mechanical stress.

author: voltera
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: April 19, 2016, 10:53:36 pm
content: Quote from: eeadata on April 19, 2016, 08:30:35 pmHi,That's all the information I have right now, as durability tests are ongoing. Once we have done more testing we will definitely be blogging about it. If you let me know what information you are specifically looking for I can look into it further and let you know when we have findings.- Kelly

author: kaz911
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2016, 07:06:37 pm
content: And Kelly just notified my that my Voltera is ready to ship - exiting

author: MarkS
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 13, 2016, 02:25:49 am
content: I get what this is and what it does, but please tell me why I should spend $2200 USD for a device that is so restricted? I can buy a large format V-Carve for half that and carve out the traces with the appropriate bit. Not only that, but I could use any size board I can get my hands on. Oh! And then I could switch bits and machine the case for the board. Yes, I get that I would lose the solder paste application and reflow ability, but is that worth the added expense and otherwise limited functionality? This seems like a solution looking for a problem.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 13, 2016, 03:19:01 am
content: Quote from: MarkS on July 13, 2016, 02:25:49 amThis seems to be the case.The Aussie startup Cartesian Co doing this with the EX-1 printer has folded I believe. The usage case just wasn't there, it could never live up to the hype.The website is still there but the main founder is now working full time at some other startup.http://www.cartesianco.com/https://www.linkedin.com/in/arielbrinerhttp://www.startupsmart.com.au/profiles/how-i-did-it/big-apple-beckons-for-aussie-3d-printing-startup-with-visions-of-making-truly-wearable-tech/

author: kaz911
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2016, 06:51:23 am
content: It was more relevant for me before when I lived in the UAE where getting PCB's could take at least 2 weeks - + 2-6 weeks in customs plus maybe a trip to the central police station to explain what the empty PCSs was for. So on average it took me 4-6 weeks to get prototype PCB's and a heck of a lot of hassle.I have done my fair share of etching - and that worked ok - but I had to smuggle in parts as you could not even get Flux or other "dangerous" chemicals as they require a license to import. So even the big companies like RS UAE (a local distributor for RS) - did not have stock of flux or acid for etching and would not take orders. I could find things sometimes at small shops but then usually acid granules had gotten moisture from bad storage. Bottled stuff was impossible to find. I bought a lot at export farnell - but again anything hazardous - not available - even flux pens could not be shipped.But I'm still looking forward to trying itand since I was an Early Bird backer - I got it at a sensible price. I would not pay $2300 for it.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2016, 07:52:51 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on July 13, 2016, 03:19:01 amI met him while I was out in SF.Basically after they'd finished & shipped the kickstarter model, they spent a lot of time talking to potential commercial customers about what they wanted from a PCB prototyping system, and the conclusion was that people wanted pretty much state-of-the art PCB design rules - fine lines, multilayer, tiny holes etc. as all teh money was in wearables, IoT etc.This was unlikely to be feasible even if they spent a ton of money on further development (They hired some ex-HP inkjet experts to examine what was possible), so they decided to pull the plug, and I believe paid back all of their investors. (Something ubeam could learn a lesson from!)

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 13, 2016, 10:23:58 am
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on July 13, 2016, 07:52:51 amI tried to tell them that a few years back, and it was obvious to anyone in the industry, but they were young and keen so they didn't want to hear that of course. But ultimately it was never going to happen. At least they had a go and got some experience.Quote

author: CJay
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2016, 12:29:52 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on July 13, 2016, 10:23:58 amI like that people try, even when I rag on people who are being idiots (and I'm damn sure I have been in the past and will be again) it's with the intention of pushing them along to sort out what's wrong (in my opinion) with their ideas.Nobody ever gets experience by not doing something and who knows, unfeasible but not impossible, there may be a step change in PCB CAM out there just about to be released.

author: MarkS
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 13, 2016, 02:31:09 pm
content: I'd rather see a Kickstarter for a solder paste applicator for the V-Carve or other CNC router. THAT would be useful!

author: kaz911
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2016, 04:45:24 pm
content: Quote from: MarkS on July 13, 2016, 02:31:09 pmif nothing else I can use mine as a paste applicator *G* and mini oven. But lets see how it works. Now that it does "true" double sided there would be less changes to make a production board if I can keep > 0603's. But Pin to Pin pitch is a bit on the high side even for what I do.

author: edavid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2016, 05:31:45 pm
content: Quote from: MarkS on July 13, 2016, 02:25:49 amThere are some people who are never going to buy a CNC router, for various reasons (e.g. too noisy and messy for an office), but still want to make boards. It's not for you (or me, too expensive), but I guess there were 300 people who were interested. Note that they didn't pay $2200.P.S. What router are you talking about? V-Carve seems to be a software package.

author: MarkS
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 13, 2016, 05:53:02 pm
content: My point is that this single purpose machine costs 2x more than a multipurpose machine. I get its utility, but the price puts this out of the reach of most hobbyists. If you are doing work in a production environment, you'll probably have access to far more capable machines. Noise is a drawback to a CNC machine, but it can do so much more and for less, including making prototype PCBs of far larger sizes. I cannot see the justification of this machine.