Quandary: gotta have a PC at the workbench but what kind of setup is best? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: peteb2
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2021, 10:07:58 pm
content: (Lets go with a Money no object scenario). So for years i have used your usual junkbox hack come 2nd hand PC running some sort of Windows so i can use the USB test gear i own, to hunt the interweb for free service manuals, parts data, do orders with the likes of Digikey, Mouser etc, design stuff, simulate circuit ideas, cad yadda, yadda. The current junker is my SurfacePro3 that i actually bought myself for some stupid reason wayback when. Once i found it to be beyond annoying it became my hack at the workbench... but even though it has the full compliment of accessories it's beyond pathetic using the USB ports on the external brick i/o. They maybe faulty now or they are just unreliable! I really need something to replace the setup. I don't like the idea of a laptop because of the footprint they occupy. I've come to like dual screens (i tend to work with stuff parked on one for reference the main work displays on the other) that don't need to be huge (but for some reason now new screens are big). A small BT keyboard & BT mouse so they don't hog valuable benchtop space. Lots of USB-2 sockets & a few USB-3 to connect to my testgear & at least an SD card slot.... My workbench is not massive but it has a return so one part of its real-estate has become the PC i/o test-gear zone so to speak.I'm thinking minPC or NuC or something... I've just been given a boat anchor of a HP Z800workstation of all things that i know nothing about & haven't even fired up but was pulled from duty and the two top-end graphics cards removed...(it's actually very clean inside) .... the opposite sprt of hardware to ever becoming my repair bench PC.... or is it?Love to know your ideas, & apologies if this is discussed elsewhere. I searched the forum for threads on this subject but none cut quickly to the dilemma i'm facing. TIA.

author: Ian.M
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2021, 12:43:44 am
content: If the PC is under the bench, it really doesn't matter how big a tower case it is. You'll need extension cables to bring up USB (at least one port direct for kit that doesn't play well with hubs + another feeding a powered hub) to the back of the bench, a wall mount for the monitor, and preferably a keyboard draw, to keep it out of the way e.g. when you are soldering. With a draw, a wired keyboard is acceptable. The monitor should be multi-input so it can be used when testing stuff that needs one (if you have a second screen, the primary one can be single input PC only). It may also be worth fitting a second network card and bringing its cable up to the back of the bench as well, so you can get at various gadget config pages without loosing LAN and internet access.

author: rdl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2021, 03:18:08 am
content: I use a Core2Duo system I built in 2008 in a mid-tower case that sits on the floorand a wall mounted 24" monitor. It runs Windows 7. It has lots of ports. I use wired mouse and keyboard just because it doesn't bother me. The way my bench is set up all equipment that needs AC power is on shelves not on the bench top. This makes it easy to pull it out from the wall when needed and makes for the largest possible work surface. A laptop would be unacceptable to me because of how much surface area it needs.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2021, 04:09:51 am
content: Mount a rack server to the underside of the bench. Easy way to make use of space that otherwise is likely unused.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 01, 2021, 04:12:46 am
content: My desk is a multi-purpose work space.Underneath, I have a 2 drawer filing cabinet to the left and a regular tower PC to the right. (IanM is right, size of the PC box is not really a concern.)On the desk, to the right I have a 19" 12U rack which is straddled between the desk and a storage unit I made. (I could get more space on my desk if I could move that rack further to the right, but the storage unit has a laser printer on it that SWMBO uses, so I only get a third of it.) The rack has an old shelf unit I made sitting on top. Nearly all my accessible TE is located in these (at the moment) and this includes my soldering and hot air stations.At the back, I have two 27" IPS monitors, leaving the space in front for all manner of work. Wireless keyboard and mouse - so they can be easily moved out of the way at any time.Above the monitors is a double shelf which contains a variety of bits and pieces which include lighting and a camera for photography, label printer, some commonly used tools and so on. This area is the subject of a complete redesign to allow for placement of some TE - such as my 3478A - to be accessible but out of the way.I have a direct connect USB extension cable as well as a 4 port USB hub snaking up, coming out from under the rack. The monitors have 3 inputs each - two HDMI and one VGA. They are both connected to the PC as well as one being connected to a microserver. There is a spare HDMI cable connected to one and a spare VGA cable connected to the other. Since dual monitor KVM switches are so expensive (and I don't use that functionality much) I get by with manually switching inputs to the monitors. I did, however, make myself a little USB changeover with a mechanical 4PDT switch in a box with a USB socket for the keyboard+mouse receiver, with two cables. One goes to the main PC and the other is 1.2m that I can plug into another machine.Behind me to the left is a storage unit for all the common bits and pieces and the other storage unit under the rack, for less frequently accessed stuff.It is cosy - but I manage.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 01, 2021, 04:14:26 am
content: Quote from: NiHaoMike on July 01, 2021, 04:09:51 amI mounted two LED strips rescued from a defunct TV under my desk. Provides EXCELLENT lighting for those times when you have to go fishing for dropped items.

author: Ranayna
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2021, 06:07:42 am
content: If you don't need more than just surfing the web (as if that is not taxing enough nowadays), i would really just go for a Intel NUC or an AsRock Deskmini X300 with AMD CPU.Mount it behind one of your screens or on the wall behind the screens, and it will take essentially no space at all.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2021, 05:24:36 pm
content: I would at least consider the Raspberry Pi 400. The entire computer is in the keyboard. I use one as a workstation and it works quite well. Among other things, Digilent's Waveforms software works on the platform so I can use my Analog Discovery 2 to watch whatever signals I am generating on the GPIO pins.It has 2 micro-HDMI outputs so dual monitors should be easy. It doesn't have an audio output so plan on a USB->Audio adapter. It's short on USB ports so plan on a powered hub.

author: fourfathom
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2021, 05:42:39 pm
content: For non-intensive work I have a couple of these:https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B082VZP76P. At $200 it's cheaper than a standard NUC, but has enough guts for most everyday work. I have a bigger PC for FPGA and PCB design, simulation, compilation, etc. -- haven't tried using those tools on the little box.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2021, 08:11:02 pm
content: Well, if it fits your requirements in terms of processing power (and it probably largely does), I would favor a mini-PC. The very best, as long as you don't load it too much, is a totally passively-cooled mini-PC. The big benefit in a workbench setting is that it makes zero noise AND takes in and out absolutely no dust. You literally set it and forget it.Good cases for passive cooling of mini-PCs can be a tad expensive, but they are well worth it. You can find "standard" stuff that fit a mini-ITX motherboard. That leaves you a relatively large choice of configurations. The only thing is, I recommend not using any external graphics card. Just use a motherboard+CPU with integrated graphics, that's usually more than enough for workbench use.

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2021, 09:42:20 pm
content: Just saying that nowadays monitors have USB hubs built-in, so with two monitors you can have several USB ports available. It is however often a pain to use them because of where the ports are located, either underneath or on the back or on the side of the monitor casing.

author: Ian.M
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2021, 10:01:20 pm
content: .... and then a mishap with a USB device or programming pod/lead fries your monitor instead of the $20 powered hub. If you do use USB ports on your monitor, keyboard etc. save them for known good USB sticks, dongles and low power self-contained peripherals, not for general bench use.With the ubiquity of black for cases, monitors and peripherals, highliting port and even power button locations with a silver Sharpie can save a lot of fumbling under the bench or round the edges of monitors.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2021, 10:15:52 pm
content: I'd grab a second hand Lenovo M800 or M900 SFF PC. i5 whatever. Chuck 32Gb of RAM and an SSD in it and. Job done. If it's of the last 3-4 generations of Intel CPU you probably won't notice much difference. They are very quiet, very reliable and stuffed full of ports. 2 front USB, 6 rear USB, gig ethernet, 2x displayport, 1x VGA, 1x serial, usual audio. Also usually come with a windows 10 pro license embedded. It'll run 2x 27" 1440p displays quite happily which can be stuffed on a second hand Knoll Sapper stand. That keeps the bench clear of monitor footprint. Put the PC under the bench.Don't bother with the tiny PCs if you want a lab PC. They are basically laptops which have some performance constraints still as they have mobile SoC processors on them. I use a passive cooled Celeron N3010 based Lenovo M600 as a headless linux utility computer but running a desktop on it would be painful and the gruntier ones are quite irritatingly noisy.While people love Xeon class workstations running they are extremely expensive to keep alive, drink a hell of a lot of power and make a lot of noise. To run a basic dual xeon, just the electricity bill will buy you the Lenovo box I mentioned above once a year.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2021, 01:01:27 am
content: My solution is to place two benches at the corner of the room, leaving room in the corner between the benches large enough to hold a tower personal computer case tall enough to mount one of the monitors on top as well as associated gear.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2021, 02:01:29 am
content: Quote from: bd139 on July 01, 2021, 10:15:52 pmThose old dual Xeon platforms aren't great for 24/7 operation unless warming up the room is a welcome side effect. But for occasional operation as a test PC, they're often available for really cheap which is what matters in that case.

author: rdl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2021, 08:49:34 am
content: What do you guys think of this? I'm trying to resist, mainly because I don't really need it...https://www.newegg.com/gigabyte-gb-bri3-10110/p/N82E16856164150

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2021, 09:13:57 am
content: Quote from: NiHaoMike on July 02, 2021, 02:01:29 amI wouldn’t bother myself. The newer desktops gave about the same amount of aggregate whack as the older cheaper xeons for the same price.

author: Johnny10
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2021, 09:59:29 am
content: I have 4 HP Z800 series machines in my lab.Z800's Z820 Z840They are big, heavy and are very picky about memory.Very capable machines that will handle all sorts of storage SAS or SATA and built in RAID.I only hate when I have to move them or open them up to change cards.I run my GPIB through one of them.They are cheap, these one time expensive Computers like Server computers are Cheap.LGA 1366 CPUs are 20 dollars and under.Built to last forever.Z800 series are Dual CPU machines.Look for low wattage CPU's and they won't heat up the room too much.And they are quiet.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2021, 10:48:27 am
content: Quote from: bd139 on July 02, 2021, 09:13:57 amXeons, and the AMD Threadripper and EPYC, have the virtue of more PCIe lanes to support more expansion slots. When I built my Ryzen workstation last year, I had to specifically look to find a motherboard with a x8/x8/x4 PCIe slot arrangement.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2021, 11:18:56 am
content: I don’t think I’ve used any more than an i3’s worth of PCIe recently even on workstation builds. Only thing is in servers with lots of DAS enterprise SSDs which is a notable and large exception to what a workstation usually consists of as they usually cost house sized amounts of money.If you need processing it’s waaaay cheaper to rent it from Amazon if you can as you’re paying by the minute.My main workstation is a 16gb laptop. Anything that doesn’t fit gets sent to Amazon.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2021, 01:46:46 pm
content: Pete, drop by for a coffee and chat and have a squiz at my PC setups not that they’re anything special but there’s a few ideas that might be of interest to you.I will add the bench you are to work with really determines what style of PC suits it best.Wireless keyboard is a must have ! Mouse not so much unless you can find one that doesn’t eat batteries.

author: duckduck
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2021, 07:38:06 pm
content: Quote from: Ranayna on July 01, 2021, 06:07:42 amAmen to this. Both monitors and mini-PCs can use VESA mounts. Not endorsing this company, but they have a nice description of the standards:https://www.ergotron.com/en-us/support/vesa-standard

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2021, 07:59:21 pm
content: If you mount the monitor and a PC on a VESA mount then it will encroach on your desk footprint and you’ll need to sit further back. Not generally a good win if you ask me.I’ve got a single 27” on a VESA mount stand which is fully articulated and rotates and goes nearly flush to the wall. Knoll Sapper variety.

author: deadlylover
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2021, 04:23:17 am
content: I like the ultra small PC idea,Serve The Homehas done a great series on them. If you look on eBay you should search for "HP Mini", "Lenovo Tiny", "Dell Micro". If your needs are modest then a quad core Skylake era machine is only a few hundred dollars and you can always repurpose them as a media centre PC and such (or give to a relative/friend for a basic office PC).A monitor arm is absolutely fantastic to help reclaim valuable bench space. I used to scoff at the idea of spending say $100 on an arm but it makes a huge difference being able to reposition the monitor if you're working on something huge. You can often find a VESA mount as well for the ultra small PC's.Great thing about those tiny PC's is the low idle power usage, usually in the 8-12W range, so you don't feel that guilty for leaving them on while collecting data or controlling instruments. I do have a load of Z820 workstations and the ~70W idle is just so wasteful.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2021, 05:03:42 am
content: Quote from: deadlylover on July 03, 2021, 04:23:17 amExcept they lack enough USB ports.Using 6 of 9 available constantly here yet the MB headers can support another 2.Never underestimate the grunt required when running a decent PCB Cad program like Altium or even the old Protel on something not up to the task and getting 30-60s boot times.Running a 3.4G i3 here and that's sufficient but certainly wouldn't want anything slower however if you just want to surf to find datasheets you can get away much with less.For anything serious you need at least dual monitor support and preferably 3 so you can display CAD schematics, PCB layout and datasheets all at the same time.

author: deadlylover
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2021, 05:41:11 am
content: Quote from: tautech on July 03, 2021, 05:03:42 amIt depends on the model/options you pick (can be hit or miss on eBay because businesses often go for the bare minimum when buying in bulk), for example the HP 800 G2 I have includes 6x USB Type A and 1x USB Type C. It also has 2x DisplayPort outputs and a VGA one too, so I'm running 3x monitors on mine.The newer ones with Thunderbolt means you can slap a dock on there and have heaps of USB ports. They can also use the "full" 65W desktop parts as well so they're not dinky little 5W Atom CPU's from the netbook era or anything, maybe you are confusing them with the old "thin clients"?For a workbench PC (not the home office workstation) they are an excellent choice because they're so common to find on eBay used cheaply. Of course if you want to go all out and drop a grand for a brand new one with an 8 core Ryzen, by all means go for gold.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2021, 06:35:57 am
content: USB hubs still exist if there aren’t enough holes.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2021, 03:42:29 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on July 02, 2021, 11:18:56 amIt does not take much to exceed commonly available PCIe expansion. Most motherboards now will not support more than 2 big expansion cards and many are now down to only 1, which makes for a problem if you plan for a RAID HBA, fast networking, and the GPU. Back when I built my Phenom II system, even the lowest cost motherboards supported 3 big PCIe cards at a minimum.I thought I might get around it this time with one of the Pro series of Ryzen APUs so no GPU is required however they are only available through the Chinese grey market.What I ended up doing is finding one of the increasingly rare motherboards which support PCIe splitting. Had I not, then I would have had to move up to Threadripper at considerably higher cost.QuoteEven if I trusted Amazon, my available internet bandwidth and transfer caps make a remote solution untenable.Quote from: deadlylover on July 03, 2021, 04:23:17 amI like putting my mediocre woodworking skills to use to make monitor shelves restoring the desk area they would otherwise take.QuoteThere are a lot of things to recommend small form factor PCs.Quote from: bd139 on July 03, 2021, 06:35:57 amI would recommend using a USB hub whether needed or not. It might save the computer from an accident and it will certainly save the port on the computer from wear and tear. They can also be had supporting the higher power charging modes where computer ports do not.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2021, 05:46:45 pm
content: Quote from: David Hess on July 03, 2021, 03:42:29 pmMost USB PD hubs I have seen only support PD on the port connecting to the PC, which is not very useful for a desktop.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2021, 06:01:47 pm
content: Quote from: David Hess on July 03, 2021, 03:42:29 pmYep. I also gave a few. I wanted to add that the reason they can be cheaper than full desktop computers or laptops was not one of them, for me, and the approach I personally suggested relied on Mini-ITX motherboards, which gives you options for building something pretty powerful already. And yes, passive cooling is pretty nice. But don't expect such a config to be cheap.Quote from: David Hess on July 03, 2021, 03:42:29 pmYes. You can of course plug "permanent" devices on USB ports directly on the computer, but for those ports to which you frequently connect and disconnect stuff on your bench, possibly including your own prototypes, a HUB is definitely a good idea. And, of course, it allows you to put the computer itself anywhere you like.

author: rdl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2021, 02:24:04 am
content: You can get a decent quality clamp on monitor mount for way less than $100 and wall mounts are even cheaper.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2021, 03:16:54 am
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on July 03, 2021, 06:01:47 pmI do not currently have any but for me the big advantage of a small form factor system would be maintainability compared to a laptop, plus of course a much better selection of features. The keyboards, displays, and limited expandability of modern "stylish" laptops make me want to puke.

author: peteb2
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2021, 04:48:22 am
content: So folks just an update... Thanks millions everyone for your much appreciated input. So what did i do.... ? Well... i've just completed a build & installed a fully legal copy of Win 10 Pro onto a "barebones" Gigabyte Brix miniPC. (How very not a real tech for me to use Win eh? I own too much test kit that sadly only boogies on Windose so i'm stuck). I love the smallness of the thing... This exercise would be the most dosh i have ever splashed out on hardware.... I went gangbusters with the RAM at 64GS, a 1TB M.2 for the C-drive and 4TB SSD. Yeah this is the 1st time i have not spent the hours hashing up some old secondhand huge-hours run Watt-monster dunger into a machine at home. Sure my Lab come w/shop has really only seen a Surface Pro 3 & all the silly junk hanging off it for dual screen etc which all now lies in an old cardboard box looking for a new home once i transfer the stuff on its SSD i need off it.... I know i have gone the wrong path to some extent but past experiences has seen me just pile up the data sheets by the 10s of thousands & the service manuals publications & of course the designers' papers on 100s of subjects etc... it goes as messy as the bench gets at times. So i'll pull the data on the Surface across soon but seriously my final question, what oh so important 'bestist' electronics S/W should i now put on this thing.... I'm even stalled at Browser choice because my old fave Firefox has become a bloated nightmare... As always any advice truly appreciated...

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2021, 05:23:03 am
content: Pete I have some SW goodies here if you want to drop by with a reasonable size USB stick.

author: AaronLee
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2021, 06:37:57 am
content: Quote from: peteb2 on July 29, 2021, 04:48:22 amHope it works out well for you. Years ago I went with a small form factor (NUC, etc.) PC, and have never looked back. I've bought at least 10 of them over the years. I love how it takes up so little space on my desk/workbench and is easily accessible (I'm bound to be plugging things in and out of it at least on a daily basis) and I can easily take it with me wherever I go and just find an HDMI monitor, keyboard, mouse and I'm good to go. Taking my work home at night is as simple as slipping the PC into my bag. Laptops have never been adequate for me, with a small screen, fixed crappy keyboard, and annoying touchpad.

author: peteb2
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2021, 07:07:35 am
content: Quote from: tautech on July 29, 2021, 05:23:03 amWill take you up on that Rob. Working this weekend so will give you a call next week. Pity i burned up a bit more of my budget on the Workbench PC than i really intended & would have preferred to have aimed it at real test gear if you get my drift! Cheers pete

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2021, 07:50:11 am
content: Quote from: peteb2 on July 29, 2021, 07:07:35 amLooking forward to it Pete and so is the wife as she follows you a bit on the social media stuff.