Rigol DS1054Z - Successor after ~5 years? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / beginners

author: Rooster Cogburn
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2019, 09:28:16 am
content: Is it still advisable to buy a DS1054Z even though it has been on the market for quite a while? I could wait a bit longer if a successor was on the horizon. The jump from the 52E to the 54Z was huge, I'd hate to buy one just to have a massively improved successor drop 6 months later.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2019, 10:28:04 am
content: Have a good hard look at SDS1104X-E, a bit dearer but beats the 54Z in many respects.Check the comparison chart in this post:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/msg1290409/#msg1290409

author: Jacon
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2019, 11:47:55 am
content: Quote from: Rooster Cogburn on March 10, 2019, 09:28:16 amWith such thinking, you may wait your whole life for "possible" successor...I've bought my 54Z 1.5 years ago, after 3 days of thinking, and am still pleased with it

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2019, 11:52:14 am
content: Quote from: tautech on March 10, 2019, 10:28:04 amIt's also a fair bit more expensive. In the bang for buck department, the DS1054Z is still unbeaten. They do still appear to sell like hotcakes too, so I don't think Rigol is in a hurry to come up with a replacement.

author: Rooster Cogburn
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2019, 12:16:54 pm
content: Quote from: Jacon on March 10, 2019, 11:47:55 amWell, you're talking to somebody with a ~10 years old TV and Computer, so... maybe that's just my thingCan we do any educated guesses on a successor? How long was the 1052E on the market till the 1054Z basically replaced it? Does the latter use any known end-of-life parts like an old FPGA etc.?Quote from: tautech on March 10, 2019, 10:28:04 amYeah, I had a look at the alternatives from Siglent. There's basically a 200Mhz 2 channel competitor for a tiny bit more and a 4 channel alternative north of 500EUR. I'd say the SDS1104X-E is out of my budget and I'm not sure about the 2 channel variant. I don't really have that much experience with a scope and while I have a few basic use cases established, it's hard for me to predict what I'll need a year or two down the road. The 54Z with its 100Mhz soft-upgrade apparently even goes a little beyond that, so I suspect I'm good there. The logic analyzer and function generator updates and the build-in web server sure look neat...

author: Mortymore
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2019, 12:41:53 pm
content: Just for consideration, look for information on GDS-1054B (GW-Instek)It's a 4 channel 50MHz scope, but can be "upgraded" to 100MHz like the Rigol, and one or 2 more things maybe can be added. A warning: if it matters to you, the GW software for PC is crap.When considering price though, go to Ebay and search for IDS-1054B. The brand on it is different (ISO-Tech), but it's a GW-Instek all the way, apart from the sticker.In the 500 price range, I would go for the Siglent SDS1104X-E.I don't know for how much you can find the Rigol, but below the 500 mark, and from what I've seen on the web I prefer the GW over the Rigol.But I'm kind of new to the latest test equipment, so consider what the experts here have to say about this.PS: ISO-Tech was a RS brand. I believe they don't use it anymore, and now they'r using the brand RS-Pro, I think.

author: Rooster Cogburn
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2019, 12:59:32 pm
content: So at Batronix the 54Z is 379EUR and the SDS1104X-E is 510EUR, incl. shipping. GDS-1054B is > 500EUR, but seems like the IDS-1054B is on eBay for a similar price as the 54Z, interesting. I don't think you can do a lot better in Europe. I don't really want to spend > 400EUR.Problem is, I'm not 100% sure what I need. Normally, I'm a big fan of starting with a cheap product like a 5$ soldering iron and then actually figuring out what it fails at and why you need the better one and then actually appreciating the difference and understanding why it performs better. But given that even a decent entry level scope like the 52E is >200EUR, that's not a viable approach here. I have a few basic use cases for why I'd want a scope, but I think any entry level scope would handle them well enough. I'm just trying to avoid needed to buy something new a year or two down the line.

author: JoeO
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2019, 02:13:50 pm
content: Rooster - You have a case of "Analysis Paralysis".

author: Rooster Cogburn
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2019, 02:28:54 pm
content: Quote from: JoeO on March 10, 2019, 02:13:50 pmIf this scope came out 1 year ago I would've probably just bought it. But since it's a 2014 model it feels like a major refresh is about due?

author: iMo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2019, 02:44:49 pm
content: I think the MSO5000 is the successor of the 1054Z.Rigol has invested a lot of effort and money into their chipset, so they are going to use it in all their DSO gear, imho. I doubt they can produce something cheaper than the 5000 with that chipset.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2019, 03:13:13 pm
content: The SDS1104X-E can be unlocked to be equivalent to the 200 MHz 4 Channel SDS1204X-E - details in the Test Equipment forum. Yes, it costs more than the DS1054Z.There's no way of knowing what is coming around the corner and the manufacturers won't say because it will disrupt sales of the existing product. Given that Rigol dominates the entry level scope market, they won't be disrupting that anytime soon. Siglent has 3 entries in the lower range so they're not going to do anything soon. At some point, the only players left are high dollar.Even if the DS1054Z went EOL the day after purchase, it's still a great scope for the money.

author: Rooster Cogburn
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2019, 07:27:54 pm
content: Maybe I'm thinking about this the wrong way, but it still feels to me like I'm buying that one Mac Pro that Apple hasn't updated in half a decade

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2019, 07:55:25 pm
content: Quote from: Rooster Cogburn on March 10, 2019, 12:16:54 pmYep I get that loud and clear and until you have some real scope experience you can only be guided by us on the forum and the info you can find here.You need study some more IMHO and sleep on it some.Your whole life has been without a scope, what's another couple of weeks ?Study up on the datasheets, videos and comparison tables and come back with questions about the stuff you don't understand.

author: Rooster Cogburn
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2019, 08:54:38 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on March 10, 2019, 07:55:25 pmI can study all time and still won't know what I'll need down the roadThe only thing that I truly worry about is how bad buying a five year old model really is. Nobody would buy a 5 years old computer or TV unless it was at a massive discount. Maybe scopes move slower, that's why I made this thread. If it wasn't for that concern, I would have bought the DS1054Z already. I know the Rigol is great for my immediate use cases and it's among the lowest cost models. The more expensive alternatives sure look 'cool', but don't really have anything that I truly need and I'd rather not spend more. I would happily wait a while longer if there was an updated model around the corner that would deliver more for the same price... Looks like that's either not the case or impossible to say.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2019, 09:16:36 pm
content: Rooster, many here have been in your exact position !Let the datasheets guide you not what you can get for free with a hack.There's a reason why the Siglent 4ch models are dearer and right at the limit of your budget, I get that and deal with it everyday with my business inquiries.At this point your DSO inexperience is creating indecision and holding you back from making a choice.Down the track when you want more from a DSO other than basic scope use is when the Siglent will come into its own with 2x the sampling rate, higher sensitivity and a faster processor that can support the additional functionality they have now and any you might add on later.54Z and 1104X-E each have their followers but the feature set and datasheet for each is what you need focus on.Either is a scope you can grow into but the X-E will allow more growth and serve more complex requirements into your future better.Enjoy the ride.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2019, 11:47:05 pm
content: Quote from: Rooster Cogburn on March 10, 2019, 08:54:38 pmYou don't know your future use and neither do we. And, trust me, there is always a better scope for a bunch more money.It took 4 years to get the Rigol firmware fixed and, at this point, the DS1054Z is pretty well bug free. Not design compromise free... I haven't followed along with the Siglent but it's pretty much assured that no scope comes to market bug free. Does that make older scopes better in the sense that the bugs have been ironed out? Search the Test Equipment forum to see what the latest story is on Siglent.Amazon prices (US)DS1054X $379 <= 4 channel can be unlocked to 100 MHzSDS1202X-E $379 <= 2 channel 200 MHzSDS1104X-E $499 <= 4 channel 100 MHz can be unlocked to 200 MHzSDS1204X-E $759 <= 4 channel 200 MHzGiven the choices above, I would buy the SDS1104X-E with the intention of unlocking 200 MHz. These days there is little point in buying a 2 channel scope because, among other things, debugging an SPI bus is easier with 4 channels (CS', CLK, MISO, MOSI). That is precisely the reason I bought the DS1054Z - I wanted features and channels. I already had bandwidth with my Tektronix 485 (350 MHz, 2 channel).In any event, prices and budget will be the deciding issues. I would like to buy the SDS1204X-E (so I don't have to play unlock games) but it is simply not in my future based simply on cost. The extra 100 MHz is great over the DS1054Z but I don't have a need at the moment and when I do, maybe the 485 will deal with it.

author: bitseeker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2019, 04:54:56 am
content: Unless you have specific requirements (or use cases that drive the requirements), since the well-known models in the budget scope market are somewhat in their own price bracket, it pretty much comes down to budget and how you feel about unlocking features. Pay more, get more (features, speed, etc.), as expected, but they'll all do the fundamentals (and some may argue that some of those fundamentals are still done better on an even older analog scope).You are correct that the scope market doesn't move at the same speed as consumer electronics. The volumes are orders of magnitude lower, so it takes more time to recoup development costs.Considering that resolving bugs in the firmware can takes months or years, there's something to be said for not buying the latest version right when it comes out, unless bug hunting is an enjoyable part of ownership for you (it is fun for some, as represented in the extensive bug threads here).

author: alsetalokin4017
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2019, 06:47:11 am
content: You could always buy a used Rigol DS1054Z, save some money and see if it fits your usage cases. Then if it doesn't, sell it off. At least then you'll have a better idea of what you want/need.If you can find a used one for sale, that is.

author: bitseeker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2019, 06:51:14 am
content: There's one in the buy/sell/trade forum for $300 shipped. US-only, though.

author: Mortymore
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2019, 10:03:27 am
content: Quote from: bitseeker on March 11, 2019, 06:51:14 amOn Batronix (DE) the DS1054Z costs €379.21 with VAT. New, and 3 years warranty.Buying from US, will add when it arrive to EU, some income taxes and VAT. Those $300 may easily turn into something like €350...€370. Assuming that it's used, the warranty, if there's some, will be at least diminished. I don't know if it's the case with Rigol, but some companies won't assume the warranty if claimed on a country different from what it was originally bought.Some 15 years ago I bought a TEK2445 for $300 on Ebay, from US. Payed €175 on taxes. VAT is higher on Portugal (23%) than it is on Germany (19%) though

author: Rooster Cogburn
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2019, 11:14:34 am
content: I checked for imports and that doesn't make much financial sense inside the EU.It seems the scopes hold their value quite well. I would've expected the 1052E to crash in price completely now that massively improved successor is out, but that didn't happen. It's still around ~300EUR new, which is absolutely insane considering that the 54Z is only ~80EUR more. I also didn't find any spectacular deals on the used market and 3 years of warranty from Batronix is nice.The SDS1104X-E unlocked to 200Mhz and generally better specs with the option of later adding a logic analyzer and waveform generator is a more future proof buy, but probably not worth the extra ~130EUR to me.

author: Mortymore
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2019, 11:49:31 am
content: Quote from: Rooster Cogburn on March 11, 2019, 11:14:34 amIt's your money and your needs so in the end it's up to you.To me the Siglent worth at least 2x the Rigol.As advised, you should read the datasheets, but one good way to make judgments for yourself in this days is to watch videos on the web.For instance, just se the latest Dave video:https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=707&v=nImoQcoqkuQThere you have FFT capability in action for 3 of the scopes that was being mentioned here. They all claim to do it... that some are better than others.One note: For the GW-Intek that Dave shows, there's an APP I believe it works on the 1000E series too, that splits the signal input from the FFT display in 2 windows, and not one on top of the other as shown in video. I have that APP on my IDS-2074E, that you can see on the picture attached.And one more thing. If you intend to "hack" a scope don't forget to check if the test probes can handle the upgrade frequency well. I did it to my scope but I had already 4 200MHz Tektronix probes.I don't know if the probes that came with my scope were good for 200Mhz, since I never used them. The only ones I know of, from what I read in this forum, is that the probes that came with the Siglent 100Mhz are good to go for 200MHz.EDIT: The IDS-2074E came with 100MHz probes, reference GTP-101A-2

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2019, 11:51:35 am
content: Quote from: Rooster Cogburn on March 10, 2019, 02:28:54 pmCareful what you wish for, you might get a few years of refreshing bugs too.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2019, 11:53:14 am
content: Quote from: Gyro on March 11, 2019, 11:51:35 amYes. I am watching the MSO5000 thread at the momentIt went "ooh shiny" to "hmm buggy" to "I'll wait".

author: alsetalokin4017
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2019, 12:32:53 pm
content: Quote from: Rooster Cogburn on March 11, 2019, 11:14:34 amPerhaps you miss my point. There are not very many _used_ DS1054Z scopes on the market, in spite of the facts that there are lots of them in the field and they've been around for years, and the used ones that do show up cost nearly as much as new-in-box. What does that tell you?

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2019, 12:40:33 pm
content: Quote from: alsetalokin4017 on March 11, 2019, 12:32:53 pmAlso I've been wondering why there are no big numbers of reported broken/damaged DS1054Z since it was released years ago, at least here in this forum alone, which I believe has big population of DS-1054Z owners that already passed their warranty period for quite sometimes now.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2019, 12:42:10 pm
content: They're mostly quite reliable I suspect. There's not a whole load to go wrong in them.

author: Rooster Cogburn
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2019, 01:38:54 pm
content: Quote from: alsetalokin4017 on March 11, 2019, 12:32:53 pmI had multiple thoughts regarding that- The cheap caps in the PSU leaked all over the place and they're all broken- They're incredibly popular so they get snagged up quite quickly and there's not much point to the used market as you might as well buy new with warranty at those prices- Since these are the No 1 beginner's scope I bet a lot of people just never needed anything else. They bought one for a single purpose. Maybe all they wanted to do is check a PSU or recalibrate some optical disc drive, and that's it. It now collects dust or performs a simple task, so why ever buy a new oneIn any case, it seems to hold its value considering even a used 1052E goes for prices that I'd consider far to high. So I think I'll stick with my original conclusion and buy one. If I need anything better or a successor comes out, I haven't wasted that much money.

author: alex-sh
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2019, 02:08:30 pm
content: I can vouch for SDS1104X-E - excellent scope.What's your budget?

author: bitwelder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2019, 03:19:16 pm
content: Quote from: Rooster Cogburn on March 10, 2019, 09:28:16 amIf you'd buy the Rigol, what would be your possibilities to sell it as used (on eBay or your local flea market) in perhaps a couple of years?If you liked the 54Z, you could get it now, use it (treating it well to keep its value), learn from it, and then when its 'successor' you can quickly decide how to act.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2019, 04:36:42 pm
content: Good suggestions all around - I am with rstofer: the SDS1104X-E would be my choice if I were looking for a new scope.Despite it is not entirely mature as the DS1054Z, it is a more modern architecture that has more horsepower and therefore more "room to breath" - i.e., if Siglent keeps a consistent trend of improving the features and usability, it will be a much better equipment when it reaches maturity. I understand this is a bit of a gamble, but they have been providing support for older platforms for a few years now and, due to its cost, the SDS1104X-E is probably selling well to warrant the same long term support.I wouldn't be too caught up on the used prices, as they vary greatly. The price you mentioned for the DS1052E is too high in my opinion.The one huge compromise the DS1054Z has is during serial stream decoding: it only decodes what is on the screen, which is very limiting in my opinion but others will certainly differ.

author: Springer
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: March 13, 2019, 09:09:13 am
content: Is the earth tab for the 1kHz output on the Rigol DS1054Z meant to be slightly wobbly?

author: JohnPen
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 13, 2019, 09:48:45 am
content: Not really. I believe the more times you connect your probes to set them up the looser they will become. In my case only the signal output terminal is slightly looser and I do mean slightly. Probably because I tend not use the earth terminal so much as it has little impact on the trace set up. It is probable that the mounting of these terminals is not very mechanically sound but to be fair setting up of probes should not need to be repeated very often. A consequence of the relatively cheap price for a pretty comprehensive 4 Channel scope.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 13, 2019, 10:48:38 am
content: AFAIK it's a bit of bent metal soldered TH on the motherboard. I am very careful of such things. In an educational or school environment they'd be broken in a week.

author: Old Printer
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 14, 2019, 11:11:32 pm
content: I've gone from looking at the 1054Z at $350 to the new Siglent's at $500 and now the new Rigol 5000 at $1000. I am still learning my Analog Discovery 2 that I bought because it had so many tools in one purchase. I like toys so a 4 ch MSO with individual channel control knobs and HDMI output looks fun, but at $1000 hard to justify for a sometimes hobby. I should buy a 1054Z, but I think my AD2 can out do it looking at digital signals and I love the 25" screen. So I do nothing

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2019, 12:15:11 am
content: Quote from: Old Printer on March 14, 2019, 11:11:32 pmGot a PC or network connection on the bench ?You can do this:https://youtu.be/W30AqcDQL18

author: WildMOSFET
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2019, 11:05:17 am
content: Here is a good price for the DS1054Zhttps://www.batterfly.com/shop/rigol-ds1054zLook here to unlock software "limitations"https://www.instructables.com/id/How-to-Hack-Upgrade-a-Rigol-DS1054Z-Digital-Oscill/

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2019, 11:05:59 pm
content: Quote from: WildMOSFET on March 16, 2019, 11:05:17 amI think Batterfly adds tax later, which puts the price in the same range as most other outfits.

author: TK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2019, 01:01:53 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on March 10, 2019, 08:11:27 pmThe Keysight 1000X (2-channel) is software hackable. Look for FERCSA.ksx in eevblog.

author: TK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2019, 01:05:49 am
content: Quote from: imo on March 10, 2019, 02:44:49 pmMSO5000 is too expensive (the firmware is still in like in alpha version, even when Rigol says it is 1.1.4.4) to be the successor of the 1054Z. So far, the successor of the 1054Z is the 1054Z.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2019, 09:28:09 am
content: Yes totally agree.I recently needed a two channel AWG and my other digital scope snuffed it inconveniently. I sat and thought about an MSO5000 but the basic entry level 70MHz model here is £882 after tax etc. I did a side by side comparison of it and some other off the shelf kit and came to the conclusion it wasn't worth it even if you crack it with all the options. Firstly I don't actually need a 300MHz scope (and if I do which is rare I've got a Tek 250MHz 475A floating around so meh). Secondly the AWG performance is rubbish compared to their much older standalone DG1022Z. Thirdly it's buggy and the software still sucks. Fourthly I don't want to do any logic analysis past some basic serial debugging on a scope - I'd rather use something with a better interface. Fifthly, there's a hell of a lot of investment to lose at once if it goes bang.Really when you spend £882 you're getting a 70MHz 2 channel DSO with no options. If you're not going to crack it, you could do way better.Ergo I spent £738 on a DS1054Z and DG1022Z. Old, reliable, known quantities. Due to Rigol's offers at the moment, you get ALL options free on the DS1054Z other than bandwidth at the moment and our local reseller doesn't sell the bandwidth upgrade because they know someone is going to just hit riglol. Incidentally I haven't cracked mine yet. I just want to see if I can make do with 50MHz Rigol until I need anything more and so far so good.I still think at this point the DS1054Z is the best deal out there. The siglent equivalent is more expensive. The keysight equivalent is significantly more expensive. Other cheaper units are inferior. It's literally the sweet spot they have there. It's not perfect but it's an excellent compromise.Another thing to note with Rigol. A lot of the newer things they are bringing out are inferior to the older ones. For example if you compare the new line of AWGs they are selling to the older DG1000Z series, they are inferior. The interface is poor and the specifications are worse than the older units. I suspect that this may be carried on if there is a DS1054Z replacement any time soon.This might be the pinnacle of cheap scopes and I wonder how long it'll last.

author: bitseeker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2019, 12:41:20 am
content: Very interesting survey of recent Rigol "progress" there, bd. I also don't find their new stuff all that compelling, neither from a spec nor a design point of view. Although I wish the responsiveness of the DS1054Z was better (who doesn't), it's still hard to beat for a wallet-friendly, general-purpose scope. And thank goodness the spelling errors have been fixed. Finally! It only took a few years.If the Siglent SDS1104X-E had been out when I was in the market for the DS1054Z, I might have spent the extra dollars. It's really just a matter of budget, which one to get between them.