Technical things overlap the political topics, unfortunately. - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 25, 2023, 12:08:24 am
content: Hello there, hope all readers doing well today.I'm noticing some conflict emerging, partly due to it being election season, already started this month in U.S.Both major US parties have officially begun campaigns this month (Sept. 2023), 14 months before scheduled elections.Likely there will be more things, coming out of the woodwork, as they say.Doing some thinking, but I can't come up with any good suggestions, or EEVBLOG forum rule changes.My sympathy to the moderators, here; likely only going to get worse, for a bit of time.Some post, in (locked) thread, above did mention this dynamic, coming whether ready or not.Maybe a good start, would be to skip the trashing, of the thread originators, while simultaneously LOCKING their thread.(I should have named this 'LOCK THIS ONE' provocative style, as sarcasm employed many years ago, (by radical author Abbe Hoffman, 1968 book 'STEAL THIS BOOK!'. ).

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 25, 2023, 06:21:17 am
content: Quote from: RJSV on September 25, 2023, 12:08:24 amYeah, why not, let 'em post whatever they want and then lock others from responding.For a good start I would ban the OP on the spot, he's clearly up to no good

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 25, 2023, 07:42:37 am
content: I wouldn't worry. Dave seems to have been a bit more relaxed about this recently.Many things are political: regulations which affect product design/standards, big tech censorship, diversity, inclusivity and equity training etc.Normally a thread will either run its course, or will get locked if it gets out of hand. I don't see the problem.

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 25, 2023, 03:36:44 pm
content: Thanks for replies. I figure, for now, if I can't suggest a better way, managing the traffic flow, can least express the desire for ALL those active to obtain some positive reinforcement.Some participants here are experiencing some bewildering trends, that, as my title suggests, that often involves technology, and some very blatent misuse / ignorance. You could ask; What groups had the most skepticism when covid outbreak started impacting (businesses) ?Answer to that is that the folks who have lived through other similar situations, being talked down to, by a fake 'science expert'.My own case, of massive frustration in America, is somewhat impacted / worsened by those closest to me; Roommates and neighbors constantly obsessed with their hate-speech TV channels blaring the most juvenile, gossipy junk, often termed as 'Tsnami of lies'. That's part of why EEVBLOG has to moderate, a task harder than it looks, I bet!Certainly, we should have a moderator function 'fairly', skipping the obvious posts that 'seem' to comply with forum rules.Case in point:'Elon Musk is a nice chap'. Talk about evading the rules ! (In spirit).

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 25, 2023, 04:04:42 pm
content: There are millions of sites oriented toward politics, we don't need to add EEVBlog to the list. Unless a thread touches directly on electronics (and I mean DIRECTLY) dump it and ban the author. If threads start out properly and devolve into politics, lock it as soon as possible and note the contributor that firstdrove it off the rails. A couple of these diversions and ban the contributor.Let's try to keep EEVBlog 'politics free'. Yes, I know I would have been banned years ago...It's going to get ugly over the next 16 months or so (and possibly beyond), let's don't port it toEEVBlog.

author: Wallace Gasiewicz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 25, 2023, 04:49:01 pm
content: OK!!! Good idea to end the contentiousness, before it even starts.Sounds like pre crime enforcement....... Wait, wasn't that in a sci fi movie??I have a better idea, for those in the US, E mail me and I will tell you how to vote and what to think.That way nobody gets hurt publicly on the forum. That way of doing things also puts less stress on the government, since they will not have to tell anyone what to do since everyone will be listening to me.HA!!!

author: Benta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 25, 2023, 05:25:23 pm
content: There are plenty of sites, networks and forums for political kooks and other nuts.This is one of the few quality forums for EEs.Let's keep it that way.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 25, 2023, 05:41:13 pm
content: No matter who you vote for the government always gets in.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 25, 2023, 07:51:00 pm
content: The political forums I've seen tend to have a strong bias and have plenty of crackpots. I find it interesting when the discussion turns political here, because I get to hear from those who live in the real world and not just what the mainstream media pump out.

author: Benta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 25, 2023, 08:51:34 pm
content: Quote from: Zero999 on September 25, 2023, 07:51:00 pmWhich "real world?" Oceania? Greenland? Or just the UK (and perhaps the US)?And which "mainstream media?" Le Soir? Sueddeutsche Zeitung? The Sun? Fox News?Don't even go there. Political navel-gazing brings nothing to this forum. We're engineers.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 25, 2023, 08:56:24 pm
content: Quote from: Benta on September 25, 2023, 08:51:34 pmIt's good to hear opinions from around the world.QuoteYes, real people. Most of the political views I get exposed to come from the BBC, CNN, Fox News, GB News, The Telegraph, Guardian etc.QuoteYou're entitled to your opinion, as am and I disagree. I've found many of the political topics here interesting, because I get different perspectives.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 25, 2023, 09:10:33 pm
content: Each of us is entitled to his ownopinion(including on pronouns), but in engineering and science we tend to considerfacts.

author: Benta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 25, 2023, 09:15:35 pm
content: Quote from: Zero999 on September 25, 2023, 08:56:24 pmPlease see:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/forum-rules-please-read/Pay attention to point #5.Take up the discussion with the forum owner, if you wish.Good luck.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 25, 2023, 09:21:11 pm
content: Quote from: Benta on September 25, 2023, 09:15:35 pmThat doesn't matter. It's not strictly enforced, which I think is great. Dave has made plenty of political posts, which is fine, because occasionally politics gets into work. It's inevitable.If you feel it's too much, press the report button, then ignore the thread and don't post in it.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 25, 2023, 09:21:34 pm
content: Opinion and facts:As an example of a present-day controversy, consider the increase in the Earth's surface temperature over, say, the past century.The scientific data show a clear trend of increasing temperature, and scientists have developed models that can be compared with future temperature trends and power usage, along with possible effects on agriculture, etc.Scientists and engineers can suggest possible methods for improving the future trends.Engineers can calculate the costs and benefits, along with practicability, of possible methods.The political process (whatever you may think about it) will determine what (if anything) is actually done about it.

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 25, 2023, 09:34:06 pm
content: Both engineers and polititians can do their calculations and make laws until the cows come home. Back millions years ago when the ice cap formed and dinosaurs died there was no engineers and polititians. As there was no engineers and polititians before that happened. Still, that happened. Think about it.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 25, 2023, 09:39:54 pm
content: Quote from: TimFox on September 25, 2023, 09:21:34 pmData can be open to interpretation, there's a huge level of uncertainty and risk vs benefit is often subjective. More often than not we have to choose the least worst option, but it's difficult to know what that is. People make this more difficult because individuals make decisions which benefit them personally and everyone has biases. Censorship is a big problem. If we're not allowed to debate ideas, which many consider to be bad, then how do we know they're really bad? Just because there's a consensus, it doesn't mean it's right.Government policies have unpredictable results, because how people respond is often too complex to predict, especially when it comes to economics. For example, raising taxes, doesn't necessarily result in increase income, as people avoid paying them and too higher tax burden hampers the economy.Some people believe it's always better for the government to intervene, whilst others think it's better to keep state interference to an absolute minimum. Full disclosure: I tend to lean towards the latter philosophy.

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 25, 2023, 10:02:12 pm
content: Yes they overlap.No the politics themselves rarely need to be discussed, yet people always feel the need to dump their opinions here which are not wanted.Quote from: Zero999 on September 25, 2023, 09:39:54 pmThen discuss the data and provide evidence or alternate data. For sure consensus is not always right, but thats not the issue here.QuoteNow you've left the relevance of this forum and are discussing political opinions which many of us do not want here. Best kept to yourself.

author: MrMobodies
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 25, 2023, 10:45:55 pm
content: If it is to do with the one I started yesterday about an article that I thought was true I am sorry about that it was a mistake and my fault.I got taken in believing it but it turned out to be fake/propaganda maybe? as Simon said it was to do with frightening people into voting for a political party and spreading it around. I was wondering how they'd go about doing such a thing in a technical sense (the point of the thread in question) but there won't be one as I see they were not being seriousI did more checking later to find it something to do with a bill that targeted at landlords but they did a uturn on that yesterday. Joke: That one would be about showing "how reasonable they are." Spot on as Simon put it.The author who wrote the article was on a political newspaper, as a "political correspondence" in unclear faint front, near his name, according to his Linkedin profile he wrote for others newspapers that are too of the same political party. The article he wrote was about other members of the same party in question. I wasn't thinking of them and the influence they had over the article when I posted. I was wondering how they could technical and electronically make their plan work but as Simon sad it was garbage there to scare people into thinking they were good and now they did a uturn on it.I am relieved it is not true but still feel ashamed of myself by getting taken in by it thinking it was real and spreading it here where they gain attention. I thought the newspaper in question was an established respectable one but how wrong could I be.Next time I will cross check to see, if the article has political influence with the newspaper itself and the author/journalist and verify other facts about it.Sorry about that again.

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 25, 2023, 11:50:07 pm
content: Note for MrMobodies:I wouldn't think you should tear yourself up, about a little glitch.For what it's worth, I've been trying to set this thread up in a 'Metadata' sense, where (mostly) any actual party, or even the country is discussed free of names or party affiliations. Funny thing, you've just mentioned a situation that relates to the 'metadata' here: Mention was made, perhaps casually, of the 'Political party, of Such & Such Newspaper'.Interesting (and perplexing) thing to say. My guess is that the Newspaper Enterprise, itself, would never say that. Indeed the opposite, as the usual claim is of being 'unbiased', and, ironically, claiming that the 'other side' is the one that is completely (and unredeemably) biased, politically. In a generic sense, we could start calling (the political parties)the Apple Party vs. the Fig Party, and then proceed with the discussion, using a more indirect language. Problem is still that (I bet) the whole of the readers is usually going to include some individuals that want to violate forum rules concerning refraining from attacking / confronting other forum participants.It's important, at least in my own evaluation of all this, important to not forget the denial that occurs, when someone points out the obvious, bias, or worse, when it's stated without any sense of uncertainty.Somebody says 'Trust me, not him', well that's a red flag right there.I don't care if that's the 'Apple' party, or the 'Martian' party, that's a red flag right there.Metadata can suggest results like 'The Apple Party uses unpaid volunteers, mostly.'That maybe allows discussion, while bypassing offending anyone. In theory.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 26, 2023, 07:21:35 am
content: Quote from: thm_w on September 25, 2023, 10:02:12 pmAn interesting thing I've learned recently, that data from a complex, unpredictable system, is often riddled with confounding factors. Quite often those who conducted the study have an alteriour motive, even if there's no blatent conflict of interest. Universities depend on funding from the government and bussiness, which introduces biases.QuoteI dissagree. Econnomics and governmnt are important when designing products, which have to be profitable and comply with regulations.If you dissagree, you don't have to read and reply. Click the report button, if you feel that strongly.

author: jonovid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 26, 2023, 07:56:16 am
content: the inductors & capacitors have had controversy.earth's surface temperature has always been changing like a storm in a teacup.not all facts are true. anybody can have an opinion about anything as most science is subject to new ideas.I will be unplugging my TV antenna for the next year until the political storm is over.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 26, 2023, 08:34:45 am
content: World had estimated 7,8- 7,9 billion people (10E9) in 2021. USA had a 330 millions at the time.Yet apparently many USA citizens think that the rest of 7,5 billion people in the world care for which idiot from a political cesspool of idiots they call politicians in USA will be elected in next "elections".Fascinating...

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 26, 2023, 08:56:08 am
content: One man's objective facts are another man's politics. And vice versa.That is true everywhere. Including this board.If there is a general consensus on an issue then it is not politics.If there is disagreement then it is politics.What is the settled truth in one venue will be controversial or even false in another venue.What bothers me is when my truth is censored while contrary opinions are considered the truth and allowed.Still, let me make it very clear that I am very anticyclonic and will not compromise on that.

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 26, 2023, 01:46:25 pm
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on September 26, 2023, 08:34:45 amFascinating indeed, America is what you get when you ass-ume that people are equal and capable of thinking for themselves.Most of them probably don't even know that there is over 7 billion people outside their reality distortion bubble

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 26, 2023, 01:55:01 pm
content: Quote from: magic on September 26, 2023, 01:46:25 pmAnd many people outside of North America believe this stereotype of the USA.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 26, 2023, 02:22:59 pm
content: Quoteunfortunately we need to care as america seems to think its the boss of the world

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 26, 2023, 02:28:08 pm
content: Quote from: TimFox on September 26, 2023, 01:55:01 pmThat's exacerbated by watching US TV news, where too often "foreign news" => "differentstatenews".Proverb: "the race does not always go to the fastest horse, but that's the way to bet".In this forum the bias should be very firmly on the technical aspects. Sometimes politics does affect the technical, and that cause and effect can and should be noted.When the conversation is about the politics (not the cause/effect on technical aspects), it should be stopped and moved to farcebook or twatterX.Starting a topic with politics and adding technical aspects almost as an afterthought is highly likely to lead to a political discussion - and hence should be stamped on.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 26, 2023, 03:15:22 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on September 26, 2023, 02:28:08 pmI am used to posts from other countries about the US, but 'That's exacerbated by watching US TV news, where too often "foreign news" => "differentstatenews" ' is silly.I have never heard news from the States of Iowa or New Jersey referred to as "foreign news"; a usual term is "out-of-state".

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 26, 2023, 03:59:47 pm
content: Quote from: themadhippy on September 26, 2023, 02:22:59 pmBoss nah more sheriffElected, more bought since it seems to be more about who has the most money than the most sensible program and strategyfor the coming years.Even the warning call from the OP: "it will get ugly" should make them think twice about what the hell are they trying to do ?Perhaps try something else than putting very old rich boomer people on the ballotGood luck americans I feel sorry for the current state of politics in your country.(Not that ours is better with 17 parties, one even stating it is for animals)

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 26, 2023, 04:09:50 pm
content: Arguments between the USA and European nations about whose politics are worse can be filed under "pots calling kettles black".

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 26, 2023, 04:26:07 pm
content: Quote from: TimFox on September 26, 2023, 03:15:22 pmTim, I lived in USA for almost 4 years, and met many good, honest people. Also many smart people. In general I don't think citizens of USA are any better or worse in any way than in any other country, but you have to understand that outside of USA, people only know what propaganda sells (i.e. USA news and media) and what foreign policy is (i.e. all the wars, sanctions, bullying, meddling in other countries etc.) that USAgovernmentdoes around the world.I was in USA when USA forces were bombing Serbia, and at lunch most of the people at the table were really not happy about it.But since there is so much fuss and smoke about how USA is great democracy and how that means that USA government is chosen by citizens and well represents will of it's people, that by logic means USA citizens are behind all this and like it.Hence Americans this and that...Same as Kjelt, I really wish for all the good people that live in USA that you see some better days....

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 26, 2023, 04:30:48 pm
content: Of course, in my foreign travels I also met good, honest, and intelligent people in almost all interactions, regardless of my personal feelings about their government.As a polite person, I didn't criticize or complain about their government when speaking with them.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 26, 2023, 04:51:37 pm
content: Quote from: TimFox on September 26, 2023, 04:30:48 pmWell that is also how I behave in Switzerland.But as soon as USA government decide to get in everybody's business and not only comment about what they don't like, but literally bomb whoever they didn't like, the rest of the world have a say now... News flash, they don't like it.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 26, 2023, 05:15:43 pm
content: Quote from: TimFox on September 26, 2023, 03:15:22 pmWhen I first heard about it, I was surprised. A few years later, when I was in a "flyover state", I kept a weather eye out for it - and encountered it.Things may have changed, and I'd be very surprised to find it in a coastal state.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 26, 2023, 05:22:22 pm
content: Quote from: TimFox on September 26, 2023, 04:30:48 pmI was on the sharp end of things when backpacking with my daughted on an overnight train in India, in the aftermath of the Iraq debacle. We were Questioned by other passengers. I wasn't afraid, but it wasn't simply making conversation.I've long liked - and repeated - this apochryphal anecdote....Stranger goes into a local store and says "I'm thinking of moving here. What are people like here?". Storekeeper asks "What are they like where you live?" "A bit standoffish and shifty". "Yup", the storekeeper confirms, "People round here are much like that".A couple of weeks later another stranger goes into the same store and says "I'm thinking of moving here. What are people like here?". Storekeeper asks "What are they like where you live?" "Greatl really friendly and honest". "Yup", the storekeeper confirms, "People round here are much like that".

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 26, 2023, 05:34:52 pm
content: @ tggzzz:I have lived for 73 years in Minnesota, Iowa, and Illinois and never encountered that usage on news broadcasts or newspapers.The closest I remember is in animated cartoons caricaturing "hillbillies" (the only minority that are still commonly made fun of here), where people from the big cities are called "furriners".

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 26, 2023, 09:26:19 pm
content: See what I mean, by 'METADATA', just happened, since I last posted comments here: 17 responses, with a couple of folks engaging in little mini-arguments. You could call this a set of observations that reflect the topic interest, or not. Many responses, including disagreements, has a kind of 'energy' measurement to it, although that might be getting into less scientific social terminology, rather than the radiated electric / magnetic field sciences.Maybe I view some of this through the eyes of a Marketer or Salesperson, gauging responses, and noting to myself the country of origin. You could also, in my own opinion, gauge an extended dialog by how much the participants disagree and argue. Like here, for instance, I welcome the ones that aren't so happy with what I say. That's because it's more realistic, and similar to the way close family's handle controversy: They argue, curse, and argue some more. I suppose that's a reflection of a confidence in the relationships, that bad stuff can be worked on. Heck, I'm having mixed feelings myself, reading your comments opposed to the positions I've taken.I'm reminded of some dialog I read, concerning native American tribes, when engaging in sports, seemingly almost murderous when competing, getting physical in some soccer-like games, (fighting dirty). But then, at game end, they are the best of friends, no grudges, walking back home together.See how I got through that whole speil, while avoiding direct, partisan commentary !====================================================================================Just heard today, that 7 of the biggest TECH stocks, in the U.S. Stock Market, are significantly 'propping up' the market averages, ...so there's that, to support my argument for allowing some controlled and non-partisan argument..PLUS: Participating in this forum, helps me get exposure to all kinds of new words and terms.Like; 'Anticyclonic'...which I think means to be cool and (relatively) unperturbed by small issues.Thanks, - - - Rick

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 26, 2023, 10:05:30 pm
content: Look, I've told you once, I'm not arguing unless you pay me.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 26, 2023, 10:12:49 pm
content: Quote from: RJSV on September 25, 2023, 12:08:24 amQuote from: RJSV on September 26, 2023, 09:26:19 pmSo, you admit to starting this completely off-topic thread just to provoke responses? That would be trolling, pure and simple. I'm surprised that someone with so many posts here is willing to do that.Or do you have a plausible alternative explantion for your OP?

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 26, 2023, 10:30:49 pm
content: Quote from: TimFox on September 26, 2023, 04:09:50 pmYep.Now funnily enough, this thread has more "political" content than the one that got locked, IMHO.

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 26, 2023, 10:47:41 pm
content: tggzzz:Thanks, short answer is I have some personal emotional health 'deficiencies' that need more work, and criticisms are, actually welcome and somewhat helpful.But, no trolling, at least, it's just that I actively 'gauge' responses as I go, and like to have a context, of where that other person is thinking from. Especially when someone responds from someplace that...resembles where my own country is headed. I guess I'd say I can respect opinions from somebody that's criticizing (me) when they live somewhere where free speech is not tolerated.As they say; Being frustrated with local affairs and people is not an excuse, but just a reason, for perhaps provocative behavior. Some say we are watching our country become 'unrecognizable',...a distress that some people manage better than others. When politics gets me down, it's nice to take a break, and I like to watch Mehdi's videos (Youtube Electroboom).

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 27, 2023, 12:14:58 am
content: Quote from: Zero999 on September 26, 2023, 07:21:35 amFeel free to point out that the study was funded by XYZ or there may be a conflict of interest. Without endorsing or attacking the political "side" you think is responsible. Ideally you'd bring up relevant studies that favor your view over shouting "biased".This one can be tough though yes.QuoteEconomics can be stated directly, costs in dollars, taxes in percent, and left at that eg. "I pay 55% import tariff on the PCB used in my design, reducing profit margin by 5%".Regulations, there should be no politics written in the electrical standard itself. Can they be influenced by politics? Sure, as stated above already, but the point here is to discuss the technical aspects of the standard or passing the standard.

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 27, 2023, 01:27:06 am
content: thm_w, thanks for comments.I can think of one relatively famous rock musician who would agree with you (a guitarist people would recognize).Sitting in managerial meetings, he was known for sitting still / eyes closed, while the managers and lawyers argued over contracts and money.Some people, myself included, like seclusion and focus, on purely math and physics, and issues around creativity. I can understand the intolerance, for extraneous subjects, during creative times. I think right now, we've been 'arguing' about talking politics, an irony, but I still can totally see your position.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 27, 2023, 07:38:47 am
content: Quote from: RJSV on September 26, 2023, 10:47:41 pmA useful response; thanks.Many of us strongly dislike where some things are headed, and sometimes feel the need to "vent".But we should choose the audience and/or venue for our vent. Fortunately there are many venues, with many different audiences, so it is possible to choose appropriately.

author: jonovid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 28, 2023, 06:47:42 pm
content: looks like US politics has reached the point of mutual assured destruction, who ever the alleged winner is, the loser will go to Jail.