Many UK Electronics engineers are doing nothing at work - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: ocset
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2018, 07:22:28 pm
content: Hi,Many of my Electronics Engineer friends in UK are doing nothing whilst at work they tell me.There is no work coming in.The company keep paying them, though not terribly much.I must admit at many of the Electronics co's that i have been to, i was aware of large numbers of UK electronics engineers not being given anything to do, and often they are moaning about it.How do these companies manage to keep paying them to do nothing?Does the UK government heavily subsidize their wages.?The most classic and striking example of a member of staff doing nothing was when I was at Alstom in UK back in 2004…….one particular UK electronics guy used to come in to the office, plonk his bag on the table and not unpack it….pull his chair back from the table, then sit down but not pull his chair back to the table, and sit there facing the floor for the rest of the day!!

author: Echo88
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2018, 07:40:01 pm
content: If they are as competent in their work as you, then its no wonder that their firms dont get orders.

author: Ian.M
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2018, 08:05:01 pm
content: And some *still* manage to do nothing even though they appear to be busy working at their desks and benches.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2018, 08:08:09 pm
content: If they were incompetent or thier firms weren't getting enough orders, they'd be sacked or made redundant eventually.In some companies there is a cycle of lots of work, followed by nothing for awhile. They could hire contractors or give the work to another engineering firm, but I suspect it makes sense to have permanent staff, who are familiar with how the company operates. Employing contractors or giving the work to another company demands more than double the hourly rate, compared to a permanent member of staff., so it can make sense to hire someone and only use them 50% of the time.

author: m98
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2018, 08:20:41 pm
content: How much of an underachiever do you have to be, to be satisfied with just sitting around while doing nothing?There is always something to do, to learn or to improve in a company.

author: dmills
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2018, 08:39:07 pm
content: Indeed, I cannot conceive of a circumstance under which a lack of immediate orders would correspond to no work for an engineer (Maybe for a production guy, but not in development).I could probably spend a year with nothing further on my plate just tidying up software and documenting things, and I know there are at least half a dozen sort of defined projects that are just waiting for the bandwidth to get them done.Even if management were not producing requests for new products (and it would be a fairly sad sack sort of product manager who did not have things they wanted designed over and above what R&D could manage), any engineer worthy of the name has a list of existing products that are causing a redesign itch. God knows I do!Some very large companies do sometimes manage to end up in a rather dilbertesque tieup with the unions that can sometimes result in people being paid to be a bum on a seat, don't work for those guys, nothing good (or interesting) comes of it.Regards, Dan.

author: Domagoj T
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2018, 09:10:02 pm
content: Uh, the only place I would expect people getting paid for no work is the government sector. From what I've seen, private companies tend to keep their employees occupied, especially small to mid sized ones.I have a to do list with 12 items on it, and by replying to this thread I've realized it's not comprehensive. I could easily add two or three more items to it. Most of these are not projects that take months to complete, but some of them have been on the list for more than a year because other stuff got added and prioritized. 9 out of those 12 on the list involve electronics hardware and some will require a bit of software.I'm not an EE, but 70% (rough estimate) of my work ends up being roughly that.Oh and I'm not in UK, so why am I even replying to this thread??

author: Ian.M
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2018, 09:15:49 pm
content: Or that 'bum on seat' bag packed engineer may be rostered for emergency field suport, and in industries where a few minutes customer down time can cost thousands of dollars or have human safety implications, its probably worth paying an engineer to twiddle their thumbs if it even shaves two minutes off the emergency response time. Of course *smart* management will let the on-call duty engineer read books to self-train or for entertainment while waiting for a callout . . .

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2018, 09:29:59 pm
content: Quote from: dmills on November 24, 2018, 08:39:07 pmIt depends on whether you're allowed to do any of that. If the boss doesn't want any modifications to existing software, designes, documentation etc. then there's not much you can do. You could start designing something new, but you won't get any appreciation for it or the budget to buy any materials for it and there will be no booking code to put your hours against on the time sheet.I often spend awhile were I work with not much to do, so I research interesting things on the Internet and occasionally post here.

author: basinstreetdesign
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2018, 09:32:42 pm
content: I have been in that situation but I have to go back 30 years to remember it. It was a spooky experience. Few engineers complained about it but some did move on to other jobs. My management at the time was broad-minded enough to allow us to work on whatever we wanted even if it was a personal project as long as it didn't cost the company any money. Obviously they were making no money. Cash was always tight. When payday came around there was literally a footrace by everybody to the bank to get their paycheck certified. Some didn't make it in time...the well was dry.My business was the broadcast video industry and there were several large trade shows that our industry had to show at or lose market share. The wish list of products was always long and making it to the show on time was always a race.Once, I did work for the Canadian government and I can honestly say that is the only organization which can tolerate a lack of work for employees for the long term. It was generally considered that if you had a Gov job you could not be fired and some people seriously flaunted that.

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2018, 09:51:04 pm
content: Is this due to economic downturn in the UK, from Brexit-related drama?

author: dmills
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2018, 10:19:10 pm
content: The Brexit insanity is mostly still restricted to Westminster (where it is causing some of the best comedy in the house in years), it will undoubtedly cause all sorts of gyp, but we are really not seeing it yet (And in fact that the pound in the toilet is making exports wonderfully cheap, but my trip to Leipzig over Christmas expensive)....There is actually plenty of work out there, to the point that we are finding that we have to process CVs and set up interviews FAST, because the good people are only on the market for a few days.Regards, Dan.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2018, 10:23:54 pm
content: It is always worth examining the motivations behind a question and the credibility of whoever is posing the question. In this case that means the OP.In that rather limited sense, post modern literary criticism (pomo litcrit) can have some value

author: KJDS
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2018, 11:24:47 pm
content: I've contracted at a lot of companies over the years. The fact that I was contracting there meant they were having a busy period. During quieter times then the permies weren't too rushed, but it's rare that anyone ever stays very lightly loaded for any length of time.Having said that, I once spent seven months as a contractor waiting for a big design package to start, which was always between one and two weeks away. It's very hard work trying to be in an office for 40 hours a week when there's nothing to do.Quote from: floobydust on November 24, 2018, 09:51:04 pmIf you read the other threads the OP has started, then you'll realize that the "drama" of this thread has nothing to do with brexit and a lot to do with the OP.

author: ocset
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 25, 2018, 01:02:03 pm
content: I wonder how these companies pay all these UK engineers to do nothing?It must be from a government grant...in other words, the UK taxpayer is paying for it.

author: ocset
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 25, 2018, 01:09:38 pm
content: I often find that the UK companies concerned just want the unoccupied engineers to sit and do nothing…the company certainly doesn’t want them to do any kind of training….likely because they are worried that if they do training they will learn new skills and possibly go and use those skills to procure employment somewhere else.A friend told me that a company that was paying him to persistently do nothing got very upset when he told them he would like a reference to apply for other jobs….these companies just want a good proportion of their engineers to sit and do nothing….bizarre!Sometimes, the companies give the unoccupied engineers “duff” jobs………One ex-colleague from Alstom told me that he was once asked to investigate possible leaks coming out of cone-to-cone joints in an electric drive liquid cooling system.( Cone-to-cone joints are well known to be able to stop liquid hydrogen leaking out if they are assembled properly).........The company insisted that he just stand by the test jig all day for several weeks…every hour he had to unwrap pieces of toilet tissue that he had wrapped round the outside of the cone-to-cone joints in order to see if moisture specks were on the tissue (due to fluid having possibly leaked out of the joints). It seemed ridiculous……..all that needed to be done was to measure the amount of fluid in the test jig at the start….then leave it running for weeks…then re-measure the amount of fluid at the end of the few weeks.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 25, 2018, 01:10:24 pm
content: Quote from: treez on November 25, 2018, 01:02:03 pmYou are 100% correct!It is called the LED or L.E.D. grant.Lazy Engineers Do (nothing) all day, grant.

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 25, 2018, 01:17:38 pm
content: Sadly, treez carries such a large chip on his shoulder that nothing short of psychological help is likely to improve things.If you look at his posting history, you will find that he starts such threads most weekends with anecdotes and 'experiences' of the UK Electronics industry. That and dodge LED lighting design related questions on the themes of 'no space to do it properly', 'fails EMC', 'gets too hot / blows up', 'why can the Chinese do it cheaper', 'Philips et-al are out to get me'.Why do I care? Because it portrays the rest of us, with distinctly different and more professional experiences, in a bad light to those unfamiliar with the UK.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 25, 2018, 01:32:23 pm
content: Quote from: KJDS on November 24, 2018, 11:24:47 pmThat does seem to be the case. Unfortunately too many people accept the OP's question's presumptions without that context.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 25, 2018, 01:34:50 pm
content: Quote from: Gyro on November 25, 2018, 01:17:38 pmAgreed.His posts might have been mildly amusing once, but they are becoming repetitive and tiresome.

author: chris_leyson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 25, 2018, 01:48:14 pm
content: QuoteI couldn't agree more, it's quite difficult for an engineer to sit around doing nothing. Right now we're working on the next generation of product, taking into account lessons learn from the last generation, so no time to sit around doing nothing.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 25, 2018, 01:52:51 pm
content: Quote from: chris_leyson on November 25, 2018, 01:48:14 pmI think this depends a lot on whether the job market is good or bad. Only a fool would walk out of a bad job when the alternative is no job at all.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 25, 2018, 02:22:43 pm
content: I do not recognize the OPs situation.Going to the end of the year the budgets for next year need to be made so managers are busy with their hoolahoop dances on higher levels to grab the budgets they can.The engineers that have no direct project to work on have lots of options:- update the technical documentation- investigate returns / failures from the field- learning from other designs from colleagues or competitors- R&D new stuff or lowering BOMThere are not much xtra costs involved, soNo excuse for any engineer to start picking their nose.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 25, 2018, 02:36:01 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on November 25, 2018, 01:52:51 pmEr, yes - but your comment has no useful relationship to finding a way to not sit around foing nothing. Doubly so when that activity could enable you to re-skill yourself for another job!

author: ocset
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 25, 2018, 03:41:43 pm
content: These unoccupied UK staff are not allowed to do anything unless their boss gives them permission......if they do, they get spoken to....they get left doing nothing.If they start doing some training of their own accord they are spoken to...and told not to.if they start working on product improvement of their own accord, they are told to "not have ideas above their station", and stop doing it.My point is that the British government is paying for all this inactivity...its throwing UK public money down the drain....your money in many cases judging by the Flags here.Given this fact, here is a better use of this British government money...https://massey276.wixsite.com/governmentwould you agree?

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 25, 2018, 03:47:42 pm
content: Quote from: treez on November 25, 2018, 03:41:43 pmNo, just no.We have had threads like this 1,000,000,000,000,000,000's of times (by the OP).Can't the mods do something about this ?Also this is POLITICAL which I thought was BANNED here ?

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 25, 2018, 03:50:01 pm
content: Quote from: treez on November 25, 2018, 03:41:43 pmHow is the British government paying for the inactivity of people in industry? Don't they only pay when the inactivity leads to layoffs?

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 25, 2018, 03:56:12 pm
content: Quote from: Gyro on November 25, 2018, 01:17:38 pmDon't worry, we know the difference..

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 25, 2018, 03:58:32 pm
content: Quote from: treez on November 25, 2018, 03:41:43 pmGo and spend 2 weeks in a mental asylum and then come back. I have never read such rubbish!

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 25, 2018, 04:01:13 pm
content: Quote from: Ian.M on November 24, 2018, 08:05:01 pmMy boss hardly has a clue what I am doing and I could dissapere into the porta cabin in the carpark with a laptop all day and no one would notice. But I am ovorwhelmed with work or rather there is so much that we should be doing to not always run in crisis mode but I am always in crisis mode, so,

author: Ian.M
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 25, 2018, 04:10:49 pm
content: @Simon,That was a somewhat sly dig at our 'beloved' O.P, who I now see is currently Banned.May I enquire how long do we have to enjoy EEVblog being Treez-free?

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 25, 2018, 04:13:54 pm
content: Quote from: Ian.M on November 25, 2018, 04:10:49 pm2 weeks! I'd really love to work in one of the companies treez describes, but they don't exist. This is not the soviet union. Yes there are lazy people, but there are not swathes of people paid to willfully do nothing!

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 25, 2018, 04:14:39 pm
content: Quote from: treez on November 25, 2018, 03:41:43 pmNo. Of course not!That URL refers to a page about "The UK Government should fund a Switch Mode Power Supply (SMPS) design and Manufacture industry in UK. " and other such twaddle which isremarkablysimilar to Treez' agenda and pontifications.Since it is signed "Andy", should we infer that is treez' first name? (No, that isn't an invitation to dox him).Anyway, I don't think Simon's banning you will cause this forum to lose anything useful.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 25, 2018, 04:18:49 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on November 25, 2018, 04:13:54 pmCompanies like this have existed in the UK, but I think its mostly a bygone thing. In the early 80s I could have taken you to a certain canteen at a certain defence contractor which was full of people, mostly trained mechanics, drinking coffee all day, who were never expected to do a stroke of work.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 25, 2018, 04:20:43 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on November 25, 2018, 04:18:49 pmI am aware that this could have been the case once, but not anymore.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 25, 2018, 04:44:18 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on November 25, 2018, 04:14:39 pmDon't worry, it's an entirely stock website, even the contact details i suspect are those of wix. Is that the quality of industry we are to setup?

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 25, 2018, 05:03:29 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on November 25, 2018, 04:18:49 pmThat was in the days of the Ministry of Defence offering "cost plus" contract terms, which basically meant you could spend whatever you wanted and would get that, plus a fixed percentage for 'reasonable profit', back from the MoD when you invoiced them. It invited behaviour from their suppliers that would be considered fraud under any other remuneration scheme. Those days are, thankfully, long gone.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 25, 2018, 05:29:51 pm
content: Quote from: Cerebus on November 25, 2018, 05:03:29 pmYou really think it has gone? From the things I've seen since the 80s I think things have just morphed into a new way to suck at the public nipple. Does the F35 program look any less messed up that any 70s or 80s cost plus project?

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 25, 2018, 05:54:23 pm
content: Since the TS/OP is benched for two weeks and can no longer respond may I suggest locking this topic also for two weeks.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 25, 2018, 06:08:37 pm
content: Quote from: Kjelt on November 25, 2018, 05:54:23 pmThe topic as he intended to discuss it would be deleted quite quickly. As it is here and not going down the tubes right now I have chosen to leave it.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 25, 2018, 06:13:14 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on November 25, 2018, 05:29:51 pmWe were talking UK, not America. The UK from what i know has cutback so much that there would be none of that and they don't give a toss where their kit comes from. Tho company i worked for once sold aic con gear to a vehicle builder abroad who then sold the vehicle back to the UK. We have not in a long time supplied the MoD directly and while anything military tends to have a higher price tag just for being military the military market itself is now highly competitive.America on the other hand only buy gear from there own so there is little incentive to be competitive. Tho company I work for infact would love to get into the american market. We once supplied two systems to a project prototype that ended up in america and were told that they would not use one of our systems on the production because they wanted to use their own.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 25, 2018, 07:05:14 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on November 25, 2018, 06:13:14 pmOn the one hand, I can understand, why America wants to make sure their military, is "home grown", as regards suppliers.But on the other, NATO/Friendly countries, should also be able to supply some military stuff to America, as well.America would probably gain from it, because (as you already mentioned), it can lower the price they would need to pay, and maybe in some cases, mean they get something better, or as good.It may even help the fellow NATO/Friendly country, build up their military capabilities.I guess that the American policy, could be right. As it means that you will have a strong, home grown, military supply base.I suppose, it is quite a complicated issue, really.In all fairness, there are often complaints, when the UK Government or military, buys stuff from non-UK sources. Especially, when the UK was able to supply it, and it was just to save a few pennies, that the order(s), were given to a foreign country.E.g. A very big, UK passport order, being given to France, rather than the long established UK supplier.https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-43489462

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 25, 2018, 07:08:06 pm
content: Yes we gave orders for new trains to siemens in germany and the UK supplier made redundancies......

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 25, 2018, 07:08:42 pm
content: that UK supplier is in turn a customer of ours.....

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 25, 2018, 07:19:39 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on November 25, 2018, 07:08:42 pmIf those orders, had been placed in the UK (Passports, Trains, etc), then the UK (government), would have indirectly got some of the money back, because the UK companies would be paying UK taxes, UK VAT (where applicable), UK council bills, etc etc.So it is very short sighted, to reject an order for (I don't know the real figures, so I made some up) £575,000,000 because a foreign firm will do it for £475,000,000.Because there are so many ways the UK will rake back some of the £575,000,000 in taxes (and business rates), many jobs, other UK suppliers getting work/business, etc etc.But, maybe from an economic point of view, they did the right thing ?

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 25, 2018, 07:22:16 pm
content: No idea, I only remember it making the news about 7 years ago.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 25, 2018, 08:08:24 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on November 25, 2018, 06:13:14 pmThe biggest market for BAe Systems is supplying US defence contractors, who then supply the US and British governments, among others. The British government seldom buys proven off the shelf systems, and has a say in how things are developed. Things are very interwoven in the defence market.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 25, 2018, 08:12:08 pm
content: Yes, but America is that big that it can source only internally if it wishes, the UK i suppose may not have all of the desired expertise.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 25, 2018, 08:16:36 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on November 25, 2018, 08:12:08 pmThe UK is bigger than France, and a lot bigger than Sweden. Both those countries maintain a high level of autonomy in the supply of their military systems. Even back in the 70s and 80s the biggest push we saw for local supply in UK defence companies was to maintain the ability to sell to governments the US wouldn't let us supply their technology to. I was offered a couple of jobs back then, engineering out US parts to broaden the potential market for a weapon system.

author: MrMobodies
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 25, 2018, 08:23:17 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on November 25, 2018, 08:16:36 pmThat reminds me of the case of Racal (now Vodafone) and Collins Radio when they were not given a license to build them and had to start their own.

author: Discotech
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 25, 2018, 08:32:39 pm
content: Quote from: MK14 on November 25, 2018, 07:19:39 pmI'm pretty sure there's more to it than just a simple better quote, there's likely some form of unrelated trade deal behind the scenes that brings in more money for the UKIt's why we still send £98million a year to India as a bribe disguised as "aid" in order to get trade deals despite India being rich enough to afford a space program

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 25, 2018, 08:35:54 pm
content: Yes it is a complicated web of arrangements.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 25, 2018, 08:37:15 pm
content: Military exemptions from trading rules may be challenged under a great many conditions. The 'exemptions' that some may think would reliably exempt large swaths of well connected industries could easily come under pressure in an organization such as the WTO if that country has commercialized them or traded with other foreign countries in 'like' services.A web of international regulations set up strict requirements for government procurements of all kinds, involving trading partners. They may even require that countries privatize all sorts of things thought safe from globalization.Many countries are given special status "National Treatment" is one example, which means a country who enjoys this special status in a tradeable sector- their firms must be treated as if they are domestic, to the country, even if they are not. (with certain exceptions, this can be controversial - for example, with regard to whether a nation's domestic wage laws apply to companies whose presence is part of- as its seen as repayment of a sort of debt) a trade agreement)"Most Favored Nation"is similar.Countries have not been legally able to only source goods or services locally since before the creation of the WTO (January 1, 1995). A more recent agreement, the AGP or in the US, GPA, attempts to accelerate the process of creating a global common market by mandating e-bidding for goods and services via an e-portal.These changes are supposed to add trillions to world GNP by reducing the costs of a plethora of newly tradable services, by means of increased competition. In order to bow out of these agreements, which severely restrict the amount of autonomy a nation has in anything involving its governments buying practices, a country would have to leave the WTO (or forgo joining it, but only a few countries have not joined the WTO mostly in the Middle East.) Many countries have to make huge sacrifices upon joining the WTO giving up public services in favor of private for-profit vendors. Oftentimes this has proven to be a huge mistake and the system is under criticism globally as illegitimate, especially by critics in developing countries, which can't afford to give up their social safety nets like the rich countries are demanding they do as a condition of trade. Military and national security is one of the only areas that is exempt from these rules, and even those exemptions rarely succeed if a country has contracted out any "like" services to any other country.Quote from: coppice on November 25, 2018, 08:16:36 pm

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 25, 2018, 08:40:43 pm
content: Countries that can be qualified as 'least developed' (i.e. poorest) have a specialLDC Services Waiverthat lets them charge slightly more and still win bids.Its the international trade equivalent of the minority and small business set asides that are still being relied upon in the US by many small businesses to steer work their way. (and seem intended to replace them)Quote from: Discotech on November 25, 2018, 08:32:39 pmI think that Western countries shouldn't trade away the bird in the hand (jobs) for the bird in the bush (cheap labor and market access). India has not been growing in terms of key areas that would need to change in order for those trades to be worth it in terms of business. India is still such a backwards country in many ways and the infuriating thing is that its current government seems to want it to remain that way.You cant have your cake, (low wages and high profits) and eat it too (have a thriving middle class and economic growth as consumers) India would need to invest more in its own peoples futures in a way that I don't see their elites doing, to become a market for western products at rates predicted. That elitism and greed and entitlement radiated by the upper class in India doesn't seem likely to change in the foreseeable future.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 25, 2018, 08:45:20 pm
content: Quote from: Discotech on November 25, 2018, 08:32:39 pmYou're right. Without knowing the real/full facts, it is very easy to be a "back seat driver", and get the wrong end of the stick.For obvious reasons, they probably can't or won't release, anything like the full story. In-fact, they may need to be quiet about the details, because the bid process needs to have significant elements of secrecy. Otherwise, the bidders could "cheat", and charge higher prices.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 25, 2018, 08:51:28 pm
content: There's a culture of presenteeism in the UK -- it's also common in other countries, but particularly strong here.I've been present for a number of months at my employer while not doing any work. I would not say I was working. I was mostly browsing the internet and EEVblog, because nothing had been assigned to me, despite me continuously asking for more work to do.But, I can't go home either. I have to be in the office. And attend a meeting once in a while. I still get paid whether or not I have work assigned, so of course I'll come in, with a 12 mile drive, even though I have nothing to do.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 25, 2018, 08:53:36 pm
content: Quote from: cdev on November 25, 2018, 08:40:43 pmI see. I'd not heard about that, thanks!It makes a lot of sense. As, it helps weaker partners/countries/businesses, to progress and become bigger and more useful, in the future.This is beginning to get rather complicated.I suppose business stuff (and politics), can be harder for people to understand, compared to more down to earth things, like electronics and schematic diagrams.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 25, 2018, 08:55:11 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on November 25, 2018, 08:51:28 pmSo is this incompetence on your employers part or a conspiracy theory?

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 25, 2018, 09:18:24 pm
content: I hear a lot about Africa, I think their plan is to sign a lot of deals with Africa -which has the cheapest labor in the world, (whomever does gets the entitlements to win the work under WTO-GATS etc) and an elite who in many cases have been educated at the top schools, who need jobs. So companies in places like India are hoping to be able to broker consultants from African front firms - in essence act as brokers and get in on the ground floor of a huge services explosion as those low cost services are marketed around the world.This is going to start with the highest value services and work downward. Licensing has to be cross-recognized and 'disciplines on domestic regulation' established in professions to facilitate cross border trade. Any regulations that stand in the way, including visa regulations like have been preventing this in the US will likely be pushed aside one way or another. So much effort has been put into this that they will just keep rehashing these schemes again and again in one form or another until they do it.The only alternatives would be a race to the top instead of bottom with rising living and work standards for everybody. (Basically what the middle class in many countries still naively thinks is supposed to happen, and politicians of all kinds feed that hope shamelessly by making the most outrageous promises, promises that clearly violate all the trade rules, as if they didn't exist, just to get elected. Of course they are totally BSing people..)But anyway, the kinds of changes that people everywhere want conflict directly with capitalism and the global supply chains/comparative advantage / services liberalization agenda, which basically feels entitled to a race to the bottom on wages as automation kicks in, with a massive concentration of wealth upward.The idea of rising labor standards, shorter work weeks and hours (after all there is less work to do as machines do more and more) they see as an existential threat to their entire means of survival, it scares them all so much that an alliance now clearly exists between groups of oligarchs everywhere.Much of the talk about trade is best understood as setting up proxy disputes which are really ways of signaling on other disputes they cant discuss publicly because they speak to this sort of global coup in the form of trade agreements (which do an end run around democracy) which the oligarchs everywhere want to keep under the radar.Because the changes that they want to make threaten the very existence of a middle class. (Which they see as sort of a temporary phenomenon forced on them by the situation that existed in the 20th century when they needed large numbers of highly skilled people to man the labor intensive machines of industry.)Now they agree that wages should be falling. A situation which would put much more of the worlds wealth into their hands and indeed that is exactly what is happening in a nutshell.Quote from: MK14 on November 25, 2018, 08:53:36 pmSome want to funnel the jobs to the children of elites in developing countries in order to keep their friendly governments in power. If there aren't enough jobs to go around, they want those jobs to go to the 'right people' whomever they want to get them. Otherwise those people. would press harder for changes like real democracy, around the world, which they really don't want.So oligarchs set up a completely amoral 'rules based' trading system to replace all the values shared by western society in a very stealthy way. You can see how stealthy in the EU Bolkelstein Directive, for example, which is a good example of this ideology's sort of Doppelganger or evil twin approach.Everything it says it is, it pretty much is the opposite. Which is really to say its 'extrinsic fraud'. And everybody who tries to point this out gets attacked from all sides. This is because both right and left wing parties all around the world have been 'captured' at this point by a sort of cult. Thats really what it is, a sort of doomsday cult, which is a very specific thing.One that wants to tear down the society we had/have and replace it with something else where the wealthy are even more powerful than they are today and the poor are even less powerful, because the vote wont have any meaning in a world where all real change is blocked by entanglements created via democracy superseding 'trade policy'. The international 'trade' aspect is the pretext by which they emasculate the vote and democracy.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 25, 2018, 09:21:45 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on November 25, 2018, 08:51:28 pmThe culture is so strong in the UK that it amazes me every time I hear of someone allowed to work from home.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 25, 2018, 09:33:56 pm
content: Another world is possible, and ironically, it would not just be possible, it would be incredibly productive and wealth enhancing for all humanity.Because commerce is not a zero sum game.But I suppose when you're on top its quite possible that you see all change as a threat when it really isn't.Quote from: coppice on November 25, 2018, 09:21:45 pm

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 25, 2018, 09:37:00 pm
content: calm down cdev, if this goes political it will be locked.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 25, 2018, 10:42:56 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on November 25, 2018, 09:37:00 pmWhen cdev writes such long posts it becomes a significant effort to scroll past them and ignore them

author: MrMobodies
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 25, 2018, 11:02:35 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on November 25, 2018, 09:21:45 pmI know of a rise in sub contractors who have more freedom on where and how they work and are not always checked up on until there is a problem but they have to meet targets and tight deadlines of what is expected of them.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2018, 07:21:55 am
content: Quote from: Simon on November 25, 2018, 08:55:11 pmNo conspiracy. Incompetence, poor planning and poor management.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 26, 2018, 07:24:48 am
content: Quote from: tom66 on November 26, 2018, 07:21:55 amSo same where i work but the other way around. They live in denial that electrical products now make up a major part of what we supply and attitudes change to suit the moment and given that no one tells anyone what the latest feeling is about things there is no policy as such.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2018, 08:15:15 am
content: Having worked for no less than 12 companies this year I see two observations:1. Most companies don’t have any idea what they are doing or where they are going.2. A lot of companies are just convenient social gatherings for incumbent staff and management haven’t noticed yet.This leads to people being able to disappear into the noise.If you’re sitting there doing nothing and not taking initiative, be prepared to not be needed suddenly one day. Many a person has got that surprise I have known. And it has never been me.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 26, 2018, 08:20:53 am
content: Indeed, professional managers that do not actually understand the nitty gritty of their own industry. I usually am the one to try and take initiative but they don't like that either. When I started in the office I was told we have subcontractors for electronics and i was told off when I tried to help. Then I pulled them out of the smelly stuff having let them simmer for a week and my help was gladly accepted. 4 years on I am now designing PCB's and writing the software but still paid like an apprentice with now more work than i can handle and they don't understand how much there is to do.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2018, 08:30:15 am
content: That's exactly how you win at work.When you get pissed off with that, tell the next company you signed a salary NDA and take a job for 3x the salary

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 26, 2018, 08:56:09 am
content: sadly the lack of qualifications bars me from working anywhere else. We still live in a world where how much you spent being given good marks for writing your name on an exam sheet makes a difference.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2018, 09:13:50 am
content: Indeed. That is a bugbear of mine. Everyone should hire based on aptitude and capability which rarely correlates to a qualification. Aptitude is something you can only find out through actually working with someone for a bit.I have fought valiantly against many an HR team on this front to the point of getting rid of a few HR staff for discrimination

author: Ice-Tea
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2018, 09:18:50 am
content: Quote from: bd139 on November 26, 2018, 09:13:50 amIf only the was some kind of test to determine this. Like, I don't know, an exam or something*runs*

author: IanMacdonald
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2018, 09:24:32 am
content: Well, at least they get to do nothing, which is better than spending all day running round the building scribbling dates, times and serial numbers into ledger books. Which seems to be the way things have gotten in big business, thanks to 'accountability' and ass-covering.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 26, 2018, 09:32:23 am
content: Quote from: Ice-Tea on November 26, 2018, 09:18:50 amSure, give me an IQ test any day. Universities do not quantify your IQ, only your ability to bullshit your way through an exam which in this country seems to amount to being able to write you name and second guess which bit of the poorly written module your poorly written do it at home question is aimed at and copy. Yes in my current HNC course the only way to answer one question was to copy and paste. I gave credit to the course material of course so that i was not accused of plagiarism.

author: AndyC_772
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2018, 09:38:56 am
content: Quote from: Simon on November 26, 2018, 09:32:23 amWhichspecificuniversities are you referring to here?You're certainly not describing any university exam I ever recall. Mine wereincrediblydemanding of the ability to understand technical questions and solve them by applying cold, hard science in an objectively correct way.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 26, 2018, 09:41:25 am
content: Quote from: AndyC_772 on November 26, 2018, 09:38:56 amHow old are you?I am doing a teeside distance learning course at HNC level. I have also had to deal with graduates (I do not know where they studied) who were incapable of problem solving and lacked basic electronics understanding.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2018, 09:50:11 am
content: Quote from: bd139 on November 26, 2018, 09:13:50 amExcellent.I've never worked anywhere where I felt that was necessary; perhaps bad HR-droids wouldn't have employed me in the first place.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2018, 09:58:06 am
content: Quote from: AndyC_772 on November 26, 2018, 09:38:56 amI went to the University of Leeds. I earned a first class degree (83% grade overall), MEng, in Electronic Engineering, with honours.I did not find it particularly challenging. Some exams were hard, but it was mostly a memory exercise. A few exams, I got only 45%, just above the pass mark, I just wanted them to be over with. The hardest bits were coursework, but I did electronics as a hobby (and still do). I had my own lab (oscilloscopes, soldering irons etc) so doing coursework at home, and not in the limited lab hours, meant I could achieve a lot more, and my practical work was generally better, especially software wise.Most lectures were a waste of time. The lecturers could have been easily summarised into 1/3rd or 1/2 the time actually taken, or would be better as a slideshow or article. As a result, I cannot say I attended every lecture, as I had better things to do with my time. Mostly finishing coursework. I didn't have much of a social life during university because I was focused on results. I also did some contract work to gain experience from the industry while at university and took a gap year to do an internship.Overall, though, I think it was worth it. I learned a lot at university, and I was able to get a good job offer pretty quickly after graduating. I've definitely learned more in my last 18 months at my current employer than 4 years of university, though.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2018, 10:05:57 am
content: Quote from: Ice-Tea on November 26, 2018, 09:18:50 amHmm. Problem is when Ug went to the best fire school in the country they made him sit through lectures and text books on making fires. When he graduated first in fire studies and landed himself at a "big fire" company he didn't even know how to make a small fire but knew all the theory. It took 4 years of his 30 year median lifespan to do this fire studies course and landed him with a decade of debt, pretty much finishing him off. Right after this he met Mrs Ug and they had Ug Junior 1, 2 an 3. At this point the money was shit because his fires were no good. So the options were to teach yourself again or find an exit plan. SO fuck that, Ug got into making the new thing he had heard about while at fire school: wheels. Wheels paid for his house and his early retirement so he could live his life out before dying of a preventable disease at the ripe age of 34. Ug likes fire but and likes to play with it but now has time to develop a deep understanding of it.I see a lot of Ug's. Hell I'm an Ug. What I want to see is more Ig's who pissed around with fire in the woods for a decade and know fire intimately through self interest. Ig wants to do the job because he is interested in it and will cover any gaps in capability and aptitude.Quote from: IanMacdonald on November 26, 2018, 09:24:32 amI don't know. There is an advantage there. Some of the accountability and ass covering actually serves to protect the people implicitly as the accountability logical fallacy works in their favour. The accountability chain has to be 100% trusted or it isn't useful and no one wants to admit to the latter. Therefore any shit that goes into it is implicitly trusted even if it's rubbish. You can't question it because you question everything that is in it.Case in point, back in '02 I was working for a trendy internet startup and we slacked off for a whole week while the boss was away and played Unreal Tournament. Friday 16:30, did timesheets. Was never questioned.Quote from: tggzzz on November 26, 2018, 09:50:11 amI tend to work for rapidly growing organisations. HR sort of explicitly becomes a function as they scale past 70 or so staff in a department or whole company. You can feel the step of friction there when they start to exist. I think HR is some step function of the universe; any significant organisation automatically evolves HR.Quote from: tom66 on November 26, 2018, 09:58:06 amI don't think it was worth it for me. I had to support the course with TOAE to make it of any practical value. So I did a degree side by side with it. The degree was less valuable!

author: CJay
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2018, 10:23:38 am
content: Quote from: Simon on November 25, 2018, 04:20:43 pmPrivate companies, perhaps not, but there are a few places I have had the 'pleasure' of doing work for where unions still rule the roost (I've had my union membership questioned and been called 'comrade' in a non ironic way on more than one occasion) and the engineers have a cosy little rest area where they can sleep, watch Sky, play games etc.True they're on standby but the kit is reliable and I've spent more than a few nights with my feet up waiting for parts to be delivered while they snore in an armchair.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2018, 10:26:42 am
content: Quote from: bd139 on November 26, 2018, 10:05:57 amOf course you feel a difference when HR moves it. The day before the company had a staff of 70 people. The day after the company had a head count of 70 resource units. The day before people were seen as individuals, with their own particular strengths and weaknesses. The day after the resource units were seen as a homogeneous interchangeable commodity, despite the front line constantly fighting against this for practical reasons.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 26, 2018, 10:28:10 am
content: Quote from: tom66 on November 26, 2018, 09:58:06 amThis is my problem, I have a very poor memory so i would foil most exams, yet in no job has someone told me "you can't use text books" so the exam situation is unrealistic and biased towards people that can remember shit and are vaguely competent even if they are not actually that clever.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2018, 10:30:25 am
content: Quote from: bd139 on November 26, 2018, 10:05:57 amThe trouble with Igs can be that they are very good at fires made from trees, but can't see/understand the similarities/differences of fires made with fossilised trees.Theory without practice is mental masturbation. Practice without theory is blind alchemical fumbling. Theory and practice are complementary; each is insufficient on its own.QuoteThere are a couple of numbers that occur repeatedly. One is that an ideal team size is 4-6; beyond that and intra-team comms becomes a problem. The other is that people can have "relationships" with up to 150 others; beyond that and significant impersonal organisational overhead must appear.One interesting organisation I worked for was Cambridge Consultants. They had 150 people, excellent HR (two people) and a continual staff turnover forgoodreasons - people were moving out to other activites in the area, typically startups. Thus I was interviewing candidates while serving my notice period; they had no problem with that since they knew I wasn't going to do anything reprehensible.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2018, 10:36:00 am
content: Quote from: Simon on November 26, 2018, 10:28:10 amI have had "open-book" exams. Fools thought that would be sufficient that they could avoid preparation. During the exam there was - and should be - insufficient time to refer to books for more than checking a trivial detail.Projects, on the other hand, are long duration andrelevantuse of books and other reference material is amply rewarded.Hence projects should form a significant portion of the overall grade.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 26, 2018, 10:42:13 am
content: Quote from: tggzzz on November 26, 2018, 10:36:00 amI have 7 modules with 3-4 assessments each and one project. What that project is to be is a great mystery because in theory I have not gained enough knowledge from the course to do anything practical so the only way to pass the last practical module is to know my shit outside of the theory I have been taught, ergo the previous 21-28 written assessments not to mention badly written modules are a waste of time and I may as well just do the practical.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2018, 10:42:39 am
content: Quote from: tggzzz on November 26, 2018, 10:36:00 amI've never been sure quite what the goal of open book exams really is. Is it to sucker the fools into less preparation, or is it to ensure a well prepared candidate is not severely hampered because one fact has slipped their mind under the stress of the exam. Perhaps its both.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2018, 10:44:35 am
content: Quote from: tggzzz on November 26, 2018, 10:30:25 amIgs tend to know the theory behind it. Igs are the guys who will quite happily use every level of abstraction to solve the problem.There is a third class; Ogs, who are merely assembly workers.Ugs -> theoretical only (taught at universities)Igs -> theoretical and practical (taught in industry after education or self-taught)Ogs -> practical only (taught at trade schools and apprenticeships)Quote from: tggzzz on November 26, 2018, 10:36:00 amThis is where it falls on its arse most of the time. From experience unfortunately. My immediate peers were totally useless. I mean hopeless. We had to work in groups because the final year projects were not insignificant. I carried the entire weight of our group on my shoulders and they leveraged my work to pass. Literally I did the research, the analysis, the engineering and the prototype build and they put their names on it. One of them didn't even turn up to the project meetings, not even once. My attempts to get them to assist were met with blank faces and me having to fill in the gaps in their education because they weren't there half of the time. And they passed with decent degrees. This was a total failure of the education system.The tutor was even complicit with this because he didn't want to see anyone failing under his name.I left with a sour taste in my mouth.

author: CJay
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2018, 11:33:57 am
content: Quote from: Simon on November 26, 2018, 09:41:25 amSimilar experience here, I looked after final year students on a 'month in industry' program, there was only one out of many that actually had any interest or aptitude for the job, they could all spout theory but had no ability and fell over as soon as they were asked to apply it, one even told me he had no need of ohms law because he had a multimeter.

author: CJay
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2018, 11:37:16 am
content: Quote from: coppice on November 26, 2018, 10:42:39 amOpen book exams are not uncommon in industry where a manufacturer offers 'qualifications' but wants to restrict it to employees of companies who are already tied in to the 'dealer' network, it's a lock in that restricts service work to those who are approved.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2018, 01:39:50 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on November 26, 2018, 10:44:35 amI had a similar experience over 2 decades ago. Well... nearly. The class (about 8 people or so) was offered a complicated project we could tackle as a 'team'. I quickly realised I was the one who was going to do all the hard work. So I declined doing the big project. That didn't get me extra social points though.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2018, 01:58:20 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on November 26, 2018, 09:32:23 amUnfortunately an IQ test wouldn't help much. There will be bright people with no interest in the subject or willingness to work and there are people who are less gifted but more driven. It also won't help out the experienced from inexperienced. A more intelligent person may learn something more quickly, but if there isn't time for them to learn, then it's better to employ someone with the experience.One of the good things about formal education is it helps to sort out those who can be bothered to learn a lot of stuff which doesn't interest them and those who don't want to.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2018, 02:15:32 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on November 26, 2018, 10:44:35 amAh. If I had known that definition of Igs, I would have agreed. Without any definition I presumed Igs were practical only.As for your definition of Ig, I agree they are the ideal. I prefer a self-taught Ig to an in-industry Ig because self-taught implies a very strong internal motivation that will last a lifetime.QuoteI'm in two minds about cooperative projects. Learning how teams work/failisvaluable experience. Having clearly delineated personal achievement/failure is also valuable. In either case a decent candidate can use the experiences during job interviews; "what I would do differently next time" is something any interviewer likes to hear.Projects on my course were single-person, but having recently returned to an open day on the 40th anniversary of graduation, it appears that they are now team projects.QuoteYes, that is indeed a modern failing.As I have recounted elsewhere Prof Eric Laithwaite used to insert one question that could not be answered well in the time. He expected the good students to recognise impossibility and avoid it!

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2018, 02:15:41 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on November 26, 2018, 10:44:35 amI had the same thing during my third year group project.Luckily, the work was marked independently. One slacker in our group of five (the others were fine) did almost no work and at the end got 33% grade. I got an 80% grade. Document what you did, prepare to defend it, and write a good report.Some group projects have a collective mark. Those were the worst but a small percentage of the overall module mark. But I accepted that, it's the cost of university projects, I guess. Most of them were marked independently.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2018, 02:18:10 pm
content: Quote from: CJay on November 26, 2018, 11:33:57 amCrap candidates indeed. 'Twas ever thus.The crap ones need to be kept away from irons and keyboards, and shunted towards something less demanding.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2018, 02:20:14 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on November 26, 2018, 02:15:41 pmIt is a shame to teach undergrads the benefits of armour-plating their back.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2018, 02:26:57 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on November 26, 2018, 02:18:10 pmUnfortunately they all seem to have ended up in ITQuote from: tggzzz on November 26, 2018, 02:20:14 pmActually that makes me happy about my university education. I learned mostly about:PoliticsFutilityAsshatsDick sucking

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 26, 2018, 02:29:17 pm
content: Quote from: Hero999 on November 26, 2018, 01:58:20 pmexperience is a non qualification measure. i am suggesting measures that do not go by qualifications alone. Many people take courses in things they think will earn them money. My electrician can't even work out series/parallel resistances yet has more qualifications than me, obviously he would never be applying for a job in electronics and would never get one but he needs my help to set up a pump with some float switches.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2018, 02:39:27 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on November 26, 2018, 10:44:35 amAll levels of education love the idea of group projects these days, and for good reason. Showing the ability to work in teams is important in most people's lives. However, nobody has developed any kind of workable mechanism for fair assessment of these things. That doesn't hold anyone back from implementing them, though. They just end up as a mechanism for pissing off and demoralising the smart and motivated, with random marks awarded to all.In schools there is almost no ability to assess who does what. In universities the projects tend to have some mentoring steps along the way, where some kind of judgement might be made, but its pretty crude. In industry people also struggle to figure out who contributed the most to a package of work, but it matters less there. People aren't being marked at the end of a single package of work. The good people generally stand out from their consistency over multiple packages of work.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 26, 2018, 03:37:13 pm
content: Happily i work alone

author: schmitt trigger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2018, 04:08:53 pm
content: coppice;actually, working in team projects at College is an excellent education to what one will experience multiplied many times during your future work-life.Which is, how to quickly identify the bad apples, and to isolate them and prevent them from doing harm.Usually, they are good for running errands, bringing in the pizza and refreshments, and other menial tasks.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2018, 04:19:55 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on November 26, 2018, 08:15:15 amWhat kind of work do you do that you have a different company each month ?Here the people that do the one person company engineering jobs have difficulty getting three companies a year which is officially required because the companies want to keep you for years on row, project after project.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2018, 04:40:00 pm
content: I do lots of short term IT contract stuff. Two main companies, one product build, lots of small jobs.Title is "professional turd shoveler" really.Not an EE (unfortunately) any more. Anyone hiring?

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2018, 05:29:49 pm
content: Honestly when you dont have engineering work assigned you should be doing your own r&d and use the time to learn and try to brainstorm ideas for your company. Even if its just sketches and more far out concepts. And revising existing designs. You need to groom that shit like your a cat.Otherwise its 'fuck you i am mounting a insurrection'.. Beware though its mad easy for a boss to be an asshole and assign weird work details etc if you are chronically bored and off company directives. I guess it must go down easier at the managment meeting that you are keeping lazy ass peons in line. Unless the entire department is mutinous lolBut come on, pay to learn is great. Try to learn instead of youtube at work.

author: In Vacuo Veritas
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2018, 05:39:43 pm
content: Quote from: treez on November 24, 2018, 07:22:28 pmDo other people see them too?

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2018, 06:12:49 pm
content: Quote from: coppercone2 on November 26, 2018, 05:29:49 pmI second that. Feeling useless at work sucks, but then again you can also feel useless while actually doing "engineering" tasks in some companies.So if you have some time to spare, use it to learn new stuff and work on this idea you've been having for years but have not had time to work on.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 26, 2018, 06:13:19 pm
content: Team work works but I think multiple people working in the same field can be pointless. Team work also relies on the generosity of all for the common cause and for people to accept that their particular version of the solution wight not be the one used and that is fine. After a few years my boss has learnt at long last to leave me and our electronics subcontractor (a member of this forum) alone to decide how something will be designed safe in the knowledge that we will not make it over expensive and if he leaves us alone the best result will come out. As a team of 2 we work great, often have similar ideas or the very same but often see things from different angles and after a long chat we come to what we fees is the best combined solution and i am fairly certain that if one of us alone setout the design it would not be as good because sometimes talking about an idea can help you see the pitfalls in your own version of it.Likewise I am working on a project with a mechanical colleague and that is working out well because i leave him to do the mechanics allowing me to do the electronics and we get a good product from the result of our efforts consulting each other an any aspect that crosses over into the others field of work. I could do the mechanical design myself as that was my primary role when I came to the office until the electronics got in but I think he is better placed than me and it means that we get the job done quicker and again fleshing ideas out with each other helps explore all possible solutions and pick the right one.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 26, 2018, 06:16:46 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on November 26, 2018, 06:12:49 pmi third it. I am currently being asked to do something that requires what i feel is an electronics solution to a mechanical problem. But it has to be done. I spent the week before i was asked to start on iteration 3 of this job playing with the new AVR chips because i knew what was coming. I have also got them to buy me most of the Wuth books that I will work through and I also have my HNC course i can do if all else fails.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 26, 2018, 06:17:27 pm
content: Quote from: blueskull on November 26, 2018, 06:15:21 pmYou mean you took engineering because it was the best paid job.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 26, 2018, 06:19:34 pm
content: Our staff has read your question and values your contribution, even though it did not meet all of our website guidelines. Thanks for sharing, and we hope to publish next time!Submit something newThanks again,RS Components LtdMy question on a current sensor replacement recommendation by RS:which idiot thinks that I may want to use a 72A sensor instead of a 150 one? why do you think they are made in ranges.And I have not been given an answer.... I wonder which team dreamt this system up.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2018, 06:29:44 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on November 26, 2018, 06:12:49 pmSo, what is worse? Having no project work to do, or working on a project that requires a lot of sustained hours, produces something really cool, but its something you know from day one will go nowhere - probably straight in the bin when the prototype is complete? Far too many engineers are wasted on the latter.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2018, 06:45:41 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on November 26, 2018, 06:29:44 pmBoth are bad, but at least with the first option you get spare time to do interesting stuff on the side. The second really sucks, but it may still feel better for some people who are unconfortable with the idea of feeling "left out". A lot more people than you may think would prefer sinking together than floating alone, so YMMV.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2018, 06:49:28 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on November 26, 2018, 06:19:34 pmDid you actually expect to be told the name of the idiot?

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2018, 07:01:52 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on November 26, 2018, 06:29:44 pmI, and many others, haveactivelychosen to do just that. We were well rewarded, both financially and technically.In my case it was in HP Labs, but there were () other such places.The tradeoffs were obvious before I accepted that job. All jobs have tradeoffs; I worked hard to be able to make the tradeoffs that suited me.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2018, 07:04:14 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on November 26, 2018, 07:01:52 pmThat's the most important sentence in this entire thread

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2018, 07:10:43 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on November 26, 2018, 07:04:14 pmTrue, but its something that's very time dependent. When the job market is good, its relatively easy to take control of your destiny. When the job market is bad its tough to do much more than use the time you have to prepare yourself for better times to come.

author: nfmax
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2018, 07:25:12 pm
content: Quote from: treez on November 24, 2018, 07:22:28 pmIt's not the ones doing nothing you should worry about, but the ones makingnegativeprogress...

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2018, 08:12:34 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on November 26, 2018, 07:10:43 pmYou have to be preparing yourself (as best you can) for the future at all times.Part of that is estimating which few technologies will become important, and not bothering to learn more me-too technologies (e.g. C#, Delphi), nor those with a short half-life (e.g. any web framework, any generic microprocessor family).Such estimation needs understanding of fundamental (i.e. theoretical) weaknesses of the existing technologies, and understanding how a new technology ameliorates them (most don't, of course, and should be ignored).

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2018, 08:13:42 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on November 26, 2018, 07:04:14 pmIn far too many threadsToo many people think their experiences and wishes apply to everybody else.

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2018, 09:01:08 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on November 26, 2018, 07:04:14 pmQuote from: George Bernard Shaw

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 26, 2018, 09:19:43 pm
content: Quote from: ebastler on November 26, 2018, 06:49:28 pmNo, I hoped that they would tell the twat in a suit that write website code that saying: "don't worry about the 150A sensor not being in stock, we have a 72A one that will just fine" that this just sends me other places. As it happened they did not have what I needed and i had to go elsewhere. but I'm sure they have highly qualified managers.... in management!

author: nfmax
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2018, 09:31:59 pm
content: Quote from: George Bernard Shaw...which is why, of course, the world is such an unreasonable place

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2018, 09:35:58 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on November 26, 2018, 09:19:43 pmMore likely the website code was written by a very hip dude with a well-trimmed beard, who just happened to have no clue of electronics...At least they did not ban you.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 26, 2018, 09:37:57 pm
content: ban me from what?

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2018, 10:08:46 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on November 26, 2018, 09:37:57 pmFrom the RS website?Just kidding, Simon, no offense.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2018, 10:11:21 pm
content: Quote from: Cerebus on November 26, 2018, 09:01:08 pmCorollary: I am unreasonable, therefore I will make/cause progress.Not!

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 26, 2018, 10:20:01 pm
content: Quote from: ebastler on November 26, 2018, 10:08:46 pmi banned myself from their website. If they want to attract engineers they should have a customer services team with an engineering background. Last time i rang to explain for the umteinth time that a lack of stock availability option in the search made the website near useless. She told me that is just the way it is, so i told her I was going elsewhere and that is just the way it is and hung up. Of course she gets paid regardless of me ordering or not and so do her managers until they start to piss their big customers off and more manufacturers start dealing direct.

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2018, 10:42:52 pm
content: I like the troll-power of this threadReminds me of the book I started readingBullshit Jobs by David GraeberThe author discusses useless jobs, why they are everywhere, and why they exist even in the private sector."He contends that over half of societal work is pointless, which becomes psychologically destructive when paired with a work ethic that associates work with self-worth."YouGov 2015 survey:37% of surveyed Britons thought that their job is not making a meaningful contribution to the world.https://www.newyorker.com/books/under-review/the-bullshit-job-boom

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2018, 12:06:55 am
content: Humanity is growing up. Leaving its adolescence and becoming adults.Or not. Its our choice.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2018, 12:46:14 am
content: Here is David Graeber's original essay!https://strikemag.org/bullshit-jobsQuote from: floobydust on November 26, 2018, 10:42:52 pm

author: MrMobodies
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2018, 01:03:39 am
content: Quote from: Simon on November 26, 2018, 10:20:01 pmIt reminds me of background of the staff working for Virgin Media when they took over NTL.They did not even know what an IP address was when I asked for one.I switched from Virgin Media to NTL business on cable in 2009.Reception: Yes how can I help.Me: Technical support.Four seconds I got put through to someone from the technical support going through the options I can get for a Cisco 2801 router.They can supply me with HWIC DOCSIS module that will work for a £400 and a range of modems they can supply.No problems I got what I paid for 10mbps down and 1mbps up without any throttling or any problems until 2012.In 2012 I called many times as the line was busy and when I did get through was promised a call back. No reply to email support from my normal contact as it was running really slow. I phoned again to hear the dreaded "Just so you know, we're here to give you the best service possible" and was waiting for ages. I thought I escaped that. Yes Virgin Media took them over.Me: Can you put me through to the technical support please.Yes we can but what is it regarding?Me: Well the broadband is really slow, it is so suppose to be 10mbps/1mbps down but it is like dialup less than 56k , there is little traffic on my end, and N/A was put in the registrant when I registered a domain from the control panel despite my address being correct on the account.Well if you contact out technical support by email....Me: Email? No no no that can't be right. I already phoned but it was busy and emailed technical support about the domain issue and got no response, I tried weeks ago and and got no call back.You said you will put me through to technical support.It is now company policy that we can't do that.I hanged up.I phoned the faults team and explained the situation.They transferred me to someone regarding my conduct and that I was reported for being rude and aggressive to one of their members of staff.I said that can you listen to the call and see that they lied to me and I wasn't being rude I never swore at them or anything. I hanged up because said they were going to transfer me and then said it was company policy that they can't."Look you have to understand that we have gotten rid of 2/3 of our technical support staff and we can only get them to call you back."Me: Well that was not what the lady offered.I was sent an Email from Nominet about cancelling me domain name. I told them there was no way to change it and Virgin Media took over and are not calling me back on the issue. They said I was not the only one and set me up an account on their site to change the registrant details.I went to their 50mbps package and a young sounding lady who did not have a clue and had to forward everything to the technical team and would not let me speak direct and it was a disaster. She was suppose to upgrade me for free as from a letter they sent out but she ended up setting up a new account and I got billed twice. I got my money back for that mistake in the end. They routed me all the way to Telford and Wreckin so instead of 10ms it went up to 20ms on a good day. My remote connections kept on dropping out but was kept open on the other end. I was let off the contract early due to that issue which happened after some change they made to their broadband network followed by a firmware update that bricked two of their Superhub routers.That is what happens when you replace technical/engineering staff with staff who don't have a clue.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 27, 2018, 07:40:04 am
content: I had virgin media bill me twice for the installation I had paid cash for on the same bill and ignored my cash deposit on the contract. It took a year of arguing to get my £80 back. At the time I was newly back to the UK and did not know about trading standards who now are practically no more because even the government sector is full of non jobs. Now as an individual i have to contact a charity called citizens advice which the government pays to handle the calls and defuse the situation so that trading standards have less workload. So because the call handlers are ignorant of the law unless you spell the law out to them so that they can check with a supervisor and find you are right your complaint against a company is not recorded. Same with the police. Police stations such as they are do not have officers in them anymore. Last time I wanted to try and hand some evidence in I had to sit and wait for an officer to come in from duty to talk to me because the clerk could not. If you ring the police call centre like with trading standards you are speaking simply to call handlers who don't know the law so things just go round and round in circles.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2018, 08:01:47 am
content: This is why I buy everything on the credit card or Paypal. Problem they won’t deal with? Charge back!Paypal are surprisingly good against shitty retailers.You have to use the status quo to fight itself and sit there sipping cocktails while it self destructs.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 27, 2018, 08:37:45 am
content: indeed that is what I now do.

author: CJay
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2018, 10:00:56 am
content: Quote from: Simon on November 27, 2018, 07:40:04 amPolice stations have been that way for a good number of years now, call centres much longer (sister is a copper, neighbour has been a civilian a call handler for a good 15 years or more)

author: Bassman59
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2018, 05:47:29 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on November 27, 2018, 08:01:47 amAbsolutely. Do not be afraid to use the power of your credit card's customer-protection squad. Never pay cash, never use a debit card.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 27, 2018, 06:14:43 pm
content: Quote from: Bassman59 on November 27, 2018, 05:47:29 pmYou mean credit card, debit cards give you nearly sod all.

author: MrMobodies
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2018, 06:21:52 pm
content: Paypal is great.Anything that arrives in the post I take pictures.I use Toshiba Flashair SDCARDS and have a robocopy script that waits on a server for it connect and automatically copies the new pictures over.That saves me having to mess about.When there is a problem I just open a folder with the pictures and a case on Ebay.Quite often I am sold "new" things that are actually used and this also happened to me a few times on Amazon. Last time it was a "new" hard drive from an Ebay seller with no negative feedback. It was sold out elsewhere. The packaging was what gave it away. They reset the Smart counters on the drives firmware but it didn't fool MHDD on the sector timing test and the colour of the copper joints on the board and the manufacturing date was a few years old. It had lots of slow and bad sectors on it. I left some negative feedback about being sold used as new and test your drives from this seller etc. The seller had it removed a couple of weeks later, I knew they would do that and Ebay customer services said you got your money back and there is nothing we can do. I think it was from a seller called Extreme Supplies.The pictures and date stamps of the unpackaging to testing is what gets them caught out in the end.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 27, 2018, 06:27:34 pm
content: My last case with ebay got me nowhere, the seller did not come clean and I could find no way to get ebay to review. Amazon also are in the game of making themselves uncontactable. i will use neither in future although i plan to start selling on ebay again. Paypal will not handle ebay issues they send you back to ebay.

author: MrMobodies
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2018, 06:42:31 pm
content: If found in the past there was a period when I was put through to the Indan call centers and I had a lot of difficulty with dealing with counterfeit things I get that are so sold at prices not too cheap but now they have a concierge programme for members who have joined them over a certain amount of time and I get through to mostly Scottish and Irish staff on the phone.Quick to get through. They are nice to speak to. They understand what I am talking about and they are very quick at arranging to get my money back and as long as I have got the pictures and proof of unpackaging.If someone has difficultly with a dodgy seller over dodgy things I will try and help them if is within the time of return. I will run the usual tests and take pictures. I take advantage of concierge service by phoning up as me explain the issue and pass them through to the victim. After the tests and pictures the seller doesn't have much of a leg to stand on and they just send a shipping form that they pay for with no more hassle.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2018, 07:14:08 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on November 27, 2018, 06:27:34 pmNever had that problem. I’ve had some right turds sent to me before or not even sent and they usually just decide in my favour straight away.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 27, 2018, 07:29:07 pm
content: nah, Paypal are Ok though. I had some idiot in a tin pot country somewhere make a claim on a µCurrent i sent him not being to description because the PCB was not screwed to the box. My response to the case was a rant about his competence as an engineer and that if he could not manage a screwdriver and 4 screws he is not competent enough to use the device. Paypal found in my favour. The customer is not always right.

author: Bassman59
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2018, 10:10:00 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on November 27, 2018, 06:14:43 pmI meant what I wrote: never use a debit card.To expand: when you use a debit card, money is immediately deducted from the linked checking or savings account. If there's a problem with the transaction, you have to work with the card issuer and the merchant to get a refund. Good luck with that. In the meantime, the money is still gone.If you use a credit card, that doesn't happen. If there is a problem with the transaction, you notify the credit card issuer and open a dispute. The dispute may take some time, but the key is that you don't have to pay the amount in dispute when the bill is otherwise due. (If the dispute is resolved in the merchant's favor, of course you have to pay the bill.) Further, if a vendor gets too many chargebacks, the credit companies (Visa, MC, Amex, etc) may pull their merchant account, which is basically a death sentence.One more thing about debit cards. Since they are linked to your bank accounts, imagine the worst-case scenario: the card gets compromised and a Bad Guy runs up a bunch of charges on the card just after you've sent in your mortgage check. When the mortgage check is deposited, it's bounced. Other checks bounce. And sure, the bank will investigate and make you whole, but now you've got to deal with all of those bounced check fees and then late payments and such.Never use a debit card for purchases.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 27, 2018, 10:13:46 pm
content: Sorry yes I misread your post.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 28, 2018, 08:07:02 am
content: Looking at all these posts during working hours I guess Treez was right afterall

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 28, 2018, 08:09:49 am
content: Quote from: Kjelt on November 28, 2018, 08:07:02 amThe thought had crossed my mind, my employer is too tight to buy a circuit studio licence so I use my own on my own computer - what goes around comes around!

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 28, 2018, 08:18:37 am
content: Quote from: Simon on November 28, 2018, 08:09:49 amIsn't that against the license agreement ? Anyway if my company doesn not provide me with the tools I need, I can not provide them with the quality output they want.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 28, 2018, 08:20:38 am
content: In the land of 20 minute+ compilations I have a lot of spare time. Software sucks. Or does it?Also I have to provide my own kit too being a contractor.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 28, 2018, 08:40:14 am
content: Quote from: Kjelt on November 28, 2018, 08:18:37 amLet's say I am subcontracting to my employer which as a design contractor is what I'd do anyway with my licence and no they don't get full "quality" of my time because I have plenty of distractions on my own machine.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 28, 2018, 08:52:24 am
content: Quote from: Kjelt on November 28, 2018, 08:07:02 amYes, I don't think Simon should have banned him. He was entertaining and I miss him. Besides, who else is going to make everyone feel good about themselves by thanking all their posts?

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 28, 2018, 08:53:53 am
content: He can come back in a bit.

author: Bassman59
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 28, 2018, 04:58:22 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on November 28, 2018, 08:20:38 amI wish the FPGA tools would blink or do something obvious to show that they're actually running. Otherwise people think I'm not doing anything.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 28, 2018, 05:08:16 pm
content: If they let them all spend some of their time (typically 20% in the US companies that do this, so one day out of the week, or its equivalent) doing projects of their own choosing for their local communities, or for their own or others education, I bet they all would be a lot happier and healthier. Groups can do things together, not just individuals.Engineers could do a lot in their local communities. Mentoring young people on projects that teach engineering skills, is another thing they could do.I've worked in two different organizations that did this, and its a very positive thing.Google does it. Generally, companies with a lot of exposure to research and academia tend to be the ones most likely to do it.Another thing thats very powerfully positive is for people in a group to share more about what they are doing particularly what challenges are stumping them in regular meetings every week or so, that creates a lot of shared knowledge in a team about what other people are doing so that if one of the members comes across something of interest to somebody else they know they could use it so they share it.This only works in functional organizations that are actually doing things, I don't see it working if people were not actually doing any work, frankly Ive never been employed in a company that didn't have work to give me.Web devs actually are the happiest when they are automating things so they need a steady flow of new challenges to automate themselves out of having to do.

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 28, 2018, 05:28:03 pm
content: I didn't work at one company I worked for. They tried the "google" thing too.You were expected to keep the same workload and meet schedules that assumed a 40 hr workweek, even though you had lost 20% time at 32 hrs. So it added stress to everyone, which kills creativity.The time you had to "innovate" and try things- had no financial support, you could not purchase a dev board or make a prototype. Pursuit of any ideas basically had to be done at zero cost. It all hinged on the employee getting enthused and working extra hours for free.One day per week is not enough time to really get much done. It's 5X longer for you to finish anything.Eventually it was abandoned, management had no patience and too dumb to realize they were choking it.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 28, 2018, 05:32:11 pm
content: Google didn't invent it, it existed before there was a Google.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 28, 2018, 05:43:51 pm
content: Quote from: cdev on November 28, 2018, 05:32:11 pmThe great exponents of giving people free time at work to do things that interested them was Bell Labs. This lead to both a Nobel prize for Bell Labs staff, and some highly profitable technology like zone refining. I remember a very interesting talk with the head of Bell Labs on this topic, where he said that even some of the slackers eventually got inspired to work hard on some idea they had, and ended up generating a lot of money.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 28, 2018, 05:44:03 pm
content: Quote from: Bassman59 on November 28, 2018, 04:58:22 pmLet the tool run in the background and put some bogus count down timer on the screen. There may be a couple of reactions...

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 28, 2018, 06:10:13 pm
content: Well I tend to spend free time on my own projects or learning which then has an impact for my employer. I also do this the other way around, I have picked a new µC for my next iteration of the project and yes they will pay me to learn to use the chip i want to use - in my own projects too. Fairs, fair, the last iteration of the project was coded in great part from stuff I had written in my own time.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 28, 2018, 06:14:18 pm
content: Why don't they let them take a short nap at their desks around midday?Tons of research has shown that people aremuchmore productive if they get a short rest around midday. Optimum time is likely less than an hour. Even a short nap is really helpful for creativity.Many businesses in many countries shut down for a few hours around midday, and resume a bit later, not just for lunch, also for the 'siesta' (nap).QuoteTaking a siesta is SOP in a large chunk of the world but the masochistic English-speaking countries have been noted for being resistant to the logic of it.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 28, 2018, 06:21:02 pm
content: We have a guy that sleeps at will. He can hardly see anymore and will retire soon.....

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 28, 2018, 06:24:30 pm
content: If I'm ever tired, which is rare nowadays, I normally find myself going to sleep a bit later than mid day, normally about 3 or 4, depending on whether it's daylight saving time or not.I think most people don't like the idea of a nap at midday because they'll have to start or finish the working day an extra hour or so earlier or later.Personally I find the opposite helps me: I go for a short, fast bicycle ride, just before I eat lunch. It helps me relieve my stress and feel energised for the rest of the day. I think lack of exercise is a big reason for the lack of productivity in the west.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 28, 2018, 06:30:12 pm
content: Oh it's the fast bit that had you off then

author: mnementh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 29, 2018, 11:31:04 pm
content: Quote from: Hero999 on November 28, 2018, 08:52:24 amI think EVERYBODY needs to thank Hero's post so he feels better.mnem*agitating-ily*

author: Ice-Tea
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 30, 2018, 09:40:21 am
content: Quote from: cdev on November 28, 2018, 06:14:18 pmHave a look at Taiwan offices around noon. Lights go out, heads go down, 30 mins "sleep", lights go on.First time you see it it's likenext time it's like

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 30, 2018, 09:51:43 am
content: Quote from: Ice-Tea on November 30, 2018, 09:40:21 amApart from the multi-nationals that's generally the practice across both Taiwan and Mainland China. In some places its an hour.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 30, 2018, 09:57:19 am
content: Yep. I would love a 30 minute nap after lunch at work.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 30, 2018, 10:15:42 am
content: I do that sometimes. As I'm getting older it is becoming involuntary though

author: Ice-Tea
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 30, 2018, 10:18:28 am
content: Quote from: coppice on November 30, 2018, 09:51:43 amWas in Shenzen earlier this year. None of that at the company I went to. When it was time for lunch, everyone *ran* out, after some time they *ran* back and that was it.

author: CJay
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 30, 2018, 10:22:02 am
content: I've drifted off in my office, possibly more times than I care to admit.I've got ~80sqM of 3rd floor corner office to myself with a secure door that can only be opened by fire alarm or facilities and have a nice, private, glass meeting room in it with some very comfy chairs.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 30, 2018, 10:24:57 am
content: Quote from: Ice-Tea on November 30, 2018, 09:40:21 amI've long thought that the siesta is a very sensibleand productiveconvention.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 30, 2018, 11:21:14 am
content: Quote from: Ice-Tea on November 30, 2018, 10:18:28 amIts may not be universal, but after visiting hundreds of places in China over the last 20 years I can tell you its pretty much the norm. Maybe the place you visited felt very "westernised", or had some foreign involvement you were not aware of.

author: Wan Huang Luo
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 30, 2018, 06:37:31 pm
content: Quote from: Hero999 on November 28, 2018, 08:52:24 am

author: mnementh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 01, 2018, 05:27:28 am
content: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Love_and_Death_on_Long_IslandmnemMy associations have become rather loose of late, so I'll just be toddling off to ded now...