Best skill list/gallery format directed to nontechnical people? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 25, 2024, 06:17:52 pm
content: Do you have a good idea how to explain ones skills and expertise to nontechnical people?My own tend to be either very generic (likemathematics,web tool development) or very specialized (likesystems programming,system integration,embedded development,server-side software development,computational materials science,high-performance computinganddistributed and parallel simulation development), so nontechnical people really have no idea what I actually do, and thus have no way to gauge my skill/expertise level.I'm interested in doing something about that. Currently, I need to spend about 30 minutes to describe examples of various projects I've completed (just a couple of minutes each, but my experience is so very widely spread out I need to list a dozen examples), and I don't like it, because it feels to me like I was asking others to "trust me bro, I know these". I'd be a bit sceptical when listening someone else describe the same myself, because humans tend to "garnish" their descriptions...I've mentioned here and elsewhere that I suffer from repeated burnout and related recurring depression, and am and have been unable to work for some time now, so this is definitely not about writing a CV. That's different. What I'm interested in is trying to explain my professional background and skill level to ordinary non-technical people. People like your own parents, your kids, relatives, or your therapist/psychiatrist. I want to make it easy, efficient, and reliable forthem, and save time for everyone.The only thing that I can think of that I believe works well is some kind of project gallery, describing the stuff in visual terms –– basically a PDF or web page gallery with basically the same content as the 30 minutes description I mentioned above, but one that they can browse through on their own speed and leisure. Any better ideas? Any examples of something similar you've found useful/informative?

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 25, 2024, 06:29:19 pm
content: A huge number of people won't only not understand what you do. They won't even grasp that humans are capable of doing those things. They seem to have some notion that designs are handed down from the Gods, and mere mortals just make and sell them. The first time I realised I was talking to someone like that I was really shocked.

author: globoy
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 25, 2024, 06:54:07 pm
content: This is a burden people in this forum share for sure.In my own life - which is populated almost entirely with non-technical people - about the only time people can relate to what I do is when the end-product is something they can relate too. For example when I've done the electronics and code for a large art installation, or something like a wildlife monitoring system that they can appreciate or when it has some prestige associated with it (e.g. being used by some big/famous organization). Or possibly when I create a gadget (like my bluetooth to POTS telephone adapter) that they find fun. Also they always ohh and ahh when seeing my studio and look at mounds of test equipment and boards with tiny parts on them. But then they never appreciate or even know how to ask about the details of what I do that *I* find interesting. I've just learned to live with it (and get satisfaction sharing in online communities).

author: armandine2
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 25, 2024, 07:07:59 pm
content: ...a book mark I need to put back into the book -The Working class in the Labour MarketextractNew Society 12 July 1979Not free to choose"nobody unapprenticed can choose a challengingly skilled job no matter how much he is prepared to sacrifice in terms of wages and other work rewards."Employers are interestedstabilityrather thanability.

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 25, 2024, 07:37:22 pm
content: Quote from: armandine2 on November 25, 2024, 07:07:59 pmSure; but that's a completely different subject, more related to how to present yourself and your CV to prospective employers. This is not that.This is more along "how to put together a portfolio for friends and family interested in what you do", albeit with a tinge on non-employer, non-employment-related professionalism; perhaps "here's what I'm interested in" and "this is the level of my skills and expertise" sort of way.For example, I'm only a hobbyist on the electronics side, with zero experience on BGA PCB design, but have implemented a few break-out boards and such. On the other hand, Unix/Linux software, system integration, C development I've done for almost 30 years, with my first paid software development gig over three decades ago. When I offer my opinion, it would be nice to provide a link, say"I'm only a hobbyist (seemy background/portfolio), but", so that others could more effectively decide for themselves what my suggestion is worth to them, as it depends on many things including our relative skill levels and experiences which otherwise take a few paragraphs of text back and forth to establish. Faster, and more effective, too.As an example of the stranger stuff I've had my hand in, I actually designed the first set of collector's cards/trading cards for the Finnish Defence Forces in 1997, handed out selectively as swag/memorabilia in military/conscription events as PR. Included things like F/A 18D card with (public) key performance details on the back side.

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 25, 2024, 07:50:12 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on November 25, 2024, 06:29:19 pmI'm painfully aware of this.A particular example of this from over a decade ago was when a work colleague asked me for a primer/prep on certain Linux appliance tech for an oncoming meeting, and my own boss ended up presenting them tomeas a subject matter expert that I should learn from. I just don't present/exude the expertise I have. Similarly for my family, who really do not grasp that the only limits to what I can do with/in Linux is time and equipment: anything I can imagine, I can implement. And I have a vivid imagination. I just hate the idea of them thinking I'm just boasting and full of hot air, and would rather just let them discover and make up their mind on their own – assuming they care enough to look into it. (Which I'm fine with. To some in my family and friends, that kind of stuff just doesn't matter: if your work supports yourself and lets you help others, it is most valuable; to hell with degrees and titles and posturing.)Ergo, this question. I do believe this is solvable using some kind of an (interactive? browser-based?) tool these people can use, presenting key points about my expertise. What kind of tool or presentation that would be, is the key question.

author: Andy Chee
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 25, 2024, 09:27:28 pm
content: “Problem solving skills” and “working in a team” might sound like HR buzz terms to pad out your résumé CV.But is this what you’re asking for? Generic catch all terms to describe your skill set?Otherwise if you need specific skills, just state them outright as you have already done.

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 25, 2024, 10:37:26 pm
content: Quote from: Andy Chee on November 25, 2024, 09:27:28 pmRead the post, Andy. This is explicitlynotabout CVs or employment or employers.

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2024, 02:07:52 am
content: Yup, I knew right away what approach I like best:Commodore64 Memory Bank.I'd start by accessing the level of interest, which has a range, from no eye contact, to wide-eyed stare."You know about video games, and how they get real complicated. Nevermind that.Commodore64 has what they call a memory bank".Then, I'd describe a few details, on how big that is, how it is 256 by 256 if you wish to arrange rows and columns. Saying that ultimately that isn't a lot.Computers do things in tiny tiny steps, and so you need lots of that 'memory'.Never mind binary, or codes, or bytes, or...(That's nerd village,...we won't be going there, tonight.)Then, and this is the peak crucial;Start in with the 'emptyness' of that 64K block,..."Wow, lookit all those empty boxes!"Then, explain that feeling. "Some folks like it (the expensive field of empty boxes), and...some folks will be scared off...intimidated."Then, wind down. (Smoke em if you got em).(Pull a C64 out of the desk drawer from more informal learning.- - Rick B.

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2024, 02:14:45 am
content: If you are talking to a relative wanting to know what you do, maybe preface by saying "I put the control stuff in, by programing in."THEN, start in with the 64k ram thing.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2024, 01:12:06 pm
content: Quote from: Nominal Animal on November 25, 2024, 06:17:52 pmI'd still think that describing some sample projects is the best way to illustrate your skills. For a non-technical audience, that's bound to feel more "tangible" and relatable than if you try to name and describe the relevant technical disciplines.Maybe you can plan and trim your project pitch somewhat. I agree that talking about them for 30 minutes is too long and gets you into "I'll tell you more than you ever wanted to know" territory. You don't need to boil it down to a 30-second elevator pitch, but maybe aim for 10 minutes or so of storytelling?Do you really need to strive for completeness, describing a dozen projects to cover all your core skills? In the informal situations you described, talking to family/friends/acquaintances, I'd think it is enough to give people a good "flavor" of what you do and enjoy, by picking just a few examples.Also, for each project you may think in advance about the "highlights" you really want to get across. Why might "regular folks" find the project interesting? What was one of the key challenges in designing this? How were you able to solve that -- building on experience you had gained with some earlier project, or was there a key idea or invention required? Again, there is no need for a complete project description in my view, but you just want to give a flavor.Ah, that's all easily written down... In my personal experience, the main difficulty is not to get carried away with too much detail, or go on tangents into related fields and projects.Edit:Oh, I forgot to address your actual "portfolio/gallery" suggestion. I am not sure I like it for the specific purpose of an informal outline of what you do. That may again lead you into "more than you ever wanted to know" space: Someone harmlessly asks you what you do, and you get out the laptop and give them a formal presentation. I would first aim for a purely verbal description which can stand on its own.If you want to put a project website together for a separate audience which wants more details -- e.g. descriptions, schematics and source code for some selected open-source designs you want to share with others -- then that website couldalsoserve to illustrate the projects to non-technical people. But I would only show it upon request, if someone expresses an interest to see a bit more.

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2024, 04:39:17 pm
content: Quote from: ebastler on November 26, 2024, 01:12:06 pmThat is exactly the problem I'm having, too. What I do now is just noteffective; I'm "wasting" their time.Quote from: ebastler on November 26, 2024, 01:12:06 pmVery true.I've been idly thinking about this further, and making a web-based portfolio, structured around field of interest –– say, visual arts, appliances, software development, software tools, electronics, math, workflows –– instead of a flat list might be the way to go. Maybe starting with a ring of icons? Each field in their own subdirectory so I could give a direct URL in written text (footnote-style) when appropriate? I'm not sure.

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2024, 04:58:58 pm
content: Perhaps this:An 8 by 11 poster with your name and an announcement at top:'JOHN SMITH, Senior Program Designer,Solving Deep Math problems, since 1972'With a bit of color and graphic around that announcement, but dignified.One approach might be to let the viewer if your resume summary ask their own questions, early on.I don't know, there are perhaps 5 or 6 approaches you could develop. You might need a keen perception to guide which style to use, at any given scenario.There's always possible complete miss, when you try swinging bat at that ball. You glance up from your notes and no one is watching.The dog is puking in the corner of the room, and people coming and going.Similarly, I once prepared a couple pages presenting a problem set (in personal stock market participation.Well, that meeting didn't go so well, when the phone rang. A kid was in hospital emergency room, and the parent, my advisor, scooped up my papers, and left, in a semi-panic!You couldn't plan for that, totally.Best with some component of adventure, or sense of wonder...you can claim those quite quickly, and pull your listeners in.What would that book be; 'Effective Speaking for business and Pleasure'. Bet there's lots of motivational related books, on how you can approach the current question.- - Rick B.

author: AndyC_772
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2024, 05:50:29 pm
content: Quote from: Nominal Animal on November 25, 2024, 06:17:52 pmIf you do something very specific, which falls outside of what constitutes 'general knowledge', then you really can't - and shouldn't try.For example, one of my key technical skills is FPGA design. What does that mean, to another electronic engineer, or to someone whose own knowledge and skill set is in a completely different area?An EE probably might ask me what languages I use, or what device families I'm most familiar with. Or, they might at least know what programmable logic is, and ask for a bit more info. That's easy.But suppose the person I'm talking to is a lawyer, a bricklayer, a sports coach, a medical doctor, or whatever? Changes are I'm talking complete gibberish by mentioning a skill that's highly specific to my profession, and never encountered outside it. In this case I'm much better off explaining theend resultof what I do, because that's much more readily understood.So, I'd explain that what I do is design bespoke electronics for companies that need them, and that I have a laboratory where I design, build and test electronic devices. I produce CAD drawings, software and other technical documents, support my customers in taking those products to production, and then provide ongoing technical support and maintenance until the product reaches the end of its commercial life.That's a description that doesn't rely on knowing what an FPGA is, or that I use a particular CAD tool, or know SPICE, or whatever. More often than not, my customers don't care about these things and nor do my friends and family. They're more interested in theend resultof what I do, not the details ofhowI do these things.

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2024, 06:06:25 pm
content: Good points.It is quite possible theunderlyingproblem I have is that I feel overly annoyed and insecure when non-technical people in my life do not appreciate my abilities, skill, and expertise. It would also explain –– in combination with my verbosity –– why I go into too much detail when explaining what I have done and can do.The problem of explaining my background and experience to nontechnical people (not employers), effectively and concisely, still remains though.I'd also like to find how to concisely explain my background and knowledge as a web page for when I'm giving advice to others, for context so they can decide what value if any my advice has for themselves. I'd really like that kind of "find out for yourself" approach, and "I'm just a hobbyist" isn't very descriptive.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2024, 07:01:32 pm
content: Quote from: Nominal Animal on November 26, 2024, 06:06:25 pmIf I understand you correctly, you have two different scenarios in mind: (a) Having some materials which can support the description you give in a conversation, and (b) a "self-service" website which can speak for itself. I am wondering whether one portfolio can serve both purposes well, or whether they are best kept separate?For scenario (a) you probably want something pretty concise -- maybe just a few pictures per project or area, which you can go through wo illustrate what you are talking about. That would ensure that it still feels informal, not like an official presentation. And you can adjust your verbal presentation depending on the level of interest in certain areas. Keep the information density limited; it might be concenient if you can show this on a mobile phone when the topic comes up spontaneously.For (b), you probably need text, diagrams, more pictures, to enable visitors to explore on their own. Also, I expect this would often address a more technical audience? Depending on your target audience, you can probably assume that people will sit in front of a proper computer screen when viewing it, and hence have more space to work with. (Although it would be nice if it can also be viewed on a phone, if you expect to occasionally interact with people below the age of 30.)Some form of "progressive disclosure" for (b) would still be good: Let visitors skim the projects, let them dive deeper where a topic catches their interest. But it seems to me that even the top level of a website for scenario (b) would need different information than what you would want to show in scenario (a).

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2024, 07:03:10 pm
content: Quote from: ebastler on November 26, 2024, 01:12:06 pmSure, but this doesn't usually end well. For example, if you explain how you developed an autonomous mobile robot platform from scratch, then they say "Oh! I know, the neighbor's son does that thing too!" and it turns out theyboughta robot and turned it on or something. And your mom won't understand the difference. Except just barely maybe after the 30-minute lecture Nominal originally mentioned. I don't think it can be optimized to anything simpler.Sometimes I do the "trust me bro" thing, it's surprisingly effective, possibly more effective than trying to squeeze that 30-minute lecture into 5 minutes. I mean, in every American action movie there is this "I have no time to explain, trust me on this" part and it always works in the movies, but it can work nearly as well in real life. At least you don't lose anything.But in the end, I don't care that much. One of the key points is to accept your own superiority and also accept that trying to explain it to laymen is so complicated task and most likely ends up them not understanding it anyway, or thinking about it as unnecessary egoism, boasting (and they would be probably right!) that... Better just to keep it between those who understand, and for example this forum is an excellent place for that.I mean, even my wife does not havecompletelyclear understanding of what I do daily. My coworkers probably know better. And many frequent contributors on this forum as well. But those who are really close to you will build intuitive understanding and respect anyway even without knowing all the details.

author: SteveThackery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2024, 08:03:50 pm
content: So, perhaps a rather controversial response, but I mean it constructively and it's shaped by my own life experiences.You've made it clear that you are not talking about selling your skills to a prospective employer, so this is solely about explaining what you can do, and have done, to your friends and family.My question is: is this for your benefit or their benefit? Do they actually care? Are they really all that interested? I ask this because in general I don't think people care that much about someone else's past achievements, nor do they wish for an in-depth appreciation of exactly what you can do. In general people like you or not, admire you or not, based on their day-to-day interactions with you. Are you good company? Do you make good conversation? Can they have a laugh with you?They soon learn at a high level where your interests lie, and that gives them some idea of where you might be able to help them. For example, I've been a hobbyist watch and clock repairer for the past 45 years, and I'm a past chairman of the British Horological Institute. That is probably the limit of what people know, and it is sufficient for them to think of me whenever they want a clock repairing, or advice on what make of watch to buy. They have no inkling of all the technical things I have achieved, what I have written, what I have innovated. They don't need to know, don't really care, and wouldn't understand it anyway.Does that matter? No, I don't think so - not at all.You wrote:"I've been idly thinking about this further, and making a web-based portfolio, structured around field of interest –– say, visual arts, appliances, software development, software tools, electronics, math, workflows –– instead of a flat list might be the way to go. Maybe starting with a ring of icons? Each field in their own subdirectory so I could give a direct URL in written text (footnote-style) when appropriate? I'm not sure."Have you ever been interested enough in another person to ask them for a web-based portfolio along the lines you describe? I bet you haven't. Let's say you met a lawyer socially. What level of detail about her specific skills and achievements would you want? I imagine you would ask her what field of law she worked in, and maybe spend five minutes talking around that. What you would not want is to make her list her academic qualifications, list her five or ten highest profile cases, list her favourite wins and most dreaded losses, explain in detail what she contributes to her chosen field of work. People just don't do that sort of thing.I think if you prepared a personal portfolio like you have described, nobody will ever bother to look at it.Back to the question: are you doing this for friends and family or for yourself? There are two things to say about that latter reason. Firstly, I, too, have been tempted to write something along the lines you describe, but only for myself. It can be most uplifting and fulfilling to review the things in life you are most proud of. If you are like me, you will recall achievements that were long forgotten. Also, I think it is valuable to explore the things you got wrong, and even things you are ashamed of (I have loads of those). Those are the things we learn our lessons from. By contemplating my past mistakes and my bad behaviour as a young man I genuinely am a better person for it: more thoughtful, more careful.Secondly, if you are anything like me, you (perhaps secretly) want to be admired and appreciated by others for your achievements. In other words, you need the admiration and respect of others as a form of validation. Knowing you are really smart and accomplished isn't enough; you need others to know it, too.I don't know you, but I know myself, and I think what I have just described is true for many people, most probably including yourself. Unfortunately, having someone tell you how smart and accomplished they are is pretty disagreeable. Nobody wants to hear it. It can come across as boasting, which nobody likes. It can come across as self-absorbed and more interested in yourself than other people. And if you leave it to them to read your portfolio if they choose, they won't read it. They aren't that interested and they wouldn't understand it anyway.In summary, I would think hard about why you want to do this. I suspect you are looking for validation: knowing how smart and accomplished you are isn't enough - you need others to know it, too, and to respect and admire you for your skills and achievements. Your proposed solution won't work because nobody is all that interested, especially in things they don't understand or can't relate to. Also, there is a risk that it will come across as boasting, or being overly smug and self-satisfied at how smart you are. Nobody likes that in a person.The real solution seems to be reducing your need for validation. I haven't managed that yet so I'm not one to offer advice! 😄 However, I have found that writing down a summary of my life, concentrating on the skills I've acquired, my achievements, the lessons I have learned, is itself a great boost to my self-esteem and reminds me that my life has largely been one of success, personal growth and fulfillment.Perhaps the answer is to write this portfolio for yourself first. Only when you have done that should you consider whether to share it with others, and how to do that.

author: temperance
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2024, 08:35:41 pm
content: did you have this presentation about your technical activities before or after the discussion about the latest gossip, the new car from the neighbors and how it compares to yours, the holidays, how well the children do in school and how they are all highly intelligent all have ADHD, ADD,VCC and GND,... . Did you also listen to these with wide eyes? That's how much people care about your technical capabilities. 0.0

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2024, 08:49:06 pm
content: Sorry if I mis-read the original post, but I had gotten the impression that it was a room full of relatives, at holiday get togethers.Question for you, when they ask; "So what is you do, in computers,...uncle...?"A half hour presentation sounds more formal and planned ahead of time.As others have stated, here, might be best to just stay where you are, on a scale of expertise, that many folks aren't capable of meaningful exposure.'Marcy', a sister in-law, responded, when I mentioned 'Engineering department Quality Control guy', with;"So how hard is that job, as English department Quality Control specialist ?"Couldn't even convey the word, 'Engineer' properly. So the rest of (your) efforts are really a waste of time. Better to just talk office things, like "Boss likes me, mostly."But I do think that a half-hour presentation is more formal, that your audience needs to show up, etc.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2024, 08:53:13 pm
content: Yes, it might not be pleasing, but as some have pointed out, fact is, most people won't care whatsoever. It's not that they don't care about you, but many don't care about what they're not directly interested in. Especially when it's technical.So no amount of effort will really help.I think the best bet though is to present your skills in the highest level possible, not getting into any detail, so, focusing on the end results and not on the how. Show people what you have done and what you can do, but not how. That may not look like you're really exposing your skills, but that's what has the higher probability of not annoying them.

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2024, 09:04:03 pm
content: What I COULD SEE, right today, is yourself giving a half-hour presentation, to a younger classroom setting. Practically that might be as a volunteer.Wouldn't hurt, to have a brief chitchat with some local parent's group member or school teacher, to check if they will host you to come speak. The reason I say that is, a group of kids don't always have pre-formed prejudices and feel excited in (your) presence...that is if you are really good at what you do.That at least is a worthwhile volunteer gig, that helps you focus and get some feedback.

author: SteveThackery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2024, 10:01:09 pm
content: People seem to intuit how smart you are without you having to tell them. In fact, modesty is one of the most admired qualities in a person. Don't throw that away.

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2024, 10:39:41 pm
content: Quote from: ebastler on November 26, 2024, 07:01:32 pmAbsolutely. And as visual and non-technical as possible.Quote from: RJSV on November 26, 2024, 09:04:03 pmI've actually done that (successfully). Before the COVID epidemic, I had a Linux laptop triage/help session at the student lounge at the local university. (I had written the Python application that verifies the user against the Uni AD, and creates the matching local user, so that they could just hand off the laptops in bulk – sponsored by the uni for a 100€ deposit – and had direct access to the current Linux IT support staff.) Basically, I told them they could ask me anything about Linux, or about the laptops; and I could help with bugs and problems, at least by triaging them so that they'd get precise help when admin access was required (which I did not have, except for my own laptop, one of the same models and installations).Quote from: Siwastaja on November 26, 2024, 07:03:10 pmExactly.Quote from: SteveThackery on November 26, 2024, 08:03:50 pmMine, absolutely. I don't want to waste their time when they're not really interested, just want the information available if they happen to care. If they don't, and they repeat the mistake, I can point out the mistake and go on and forget about it. I don't need them toknow, I need them to have a way to find out for themselves if they want to know, and a way for me to point to if their understanding of me does not match observable results.You know, as in "Heh, that's not it. If you really want to know, look here <showing website>" and then continue in good mood, no harm done.Currently, that kind of mistakes stymie me, because I really don't know what is the appropriate social response/action, and leads to awkward pauses..Quote from: SteveThackery on November 26, 2024, 08:03:50 pmAh, but I have no such label myself, at all. Even though I've done subject matter courses in computational materials physics somewhere between a MS and PhD, helped about a dozen others with their thesis works, I myself have no degree, not even a BSc (a BSc wasn't necessary back when I started, one could directly go for a MS). This means only the"They have no inkling of all the technical things I have achieved, what I have written, what I have innovated." part applies to myself.Quote from: SteveThackery on November 26, 2024, 08:03:50 pm"Web-based portfolio", no. Website, yes; often. (Not Facebook/Instagram/Twitter/X and such; but mailing lists, questions and answers in public, any website on their interests if they happen to have one, definitely yes.) In fact, I do tend to look up people on the net on my own, if we share a common area of interest.But you are on point on exactly why I want to avoid the 30-minute talks, too: I don't want to waste their time, either. It would suffice if the information useful to these non-technical family and friends and acquintances was out there somewhere so I could point to it, and avert/ignore the mistake.Quote from: SteveThackery on November 26, 2024, 08:03:50 pmNo, which is why I'm so adamant about this not being a CV thing, but more about .. uh, focus? interests? .. but in a way that allows them to form an opinion on my skills and knowledge.I'd definitely ask her about what kind of disputes she finds most engaging, in the abstract. I might discuss patent law issues and EU legal stance regarding open source and such, if she was interested in that. I often end up discussing workflows and tools, and the related quirks across the globe; for example, the role of fax machines and "legal papers" in different jurisdictions. This is very natural to me, and seems to "work" well in practice.Quote from: SteveThackery on November 26, 2024, 08:03:50 pmI've tried a couple of times, but it isn'tusefulenough to motivate me to do it properly.Quote from: SteveThackery on November 26, 2024, 08:03:50 pmAbsolutely. I've even learned not to dwell on them per se, but consider what I now know and how I would handle asimilarsituationnow; what the differences are and why. (This is important, because dwelling on the past is not healthy; one needs to accept history as it is, and use it as a learning experience; and, with the experience, do better now and in the future.)Quote from: SteveThackery on November 26, 2024, 08:03:50 pmOf course!To be precise, I do not need others to know it per se; it is more that others seem to assume otherwise, too often for my liking.I'd like to react to that by dismissing their assumption by pointing out where they can find out if they care, and move on.Feeling my skills and expertisevalidatedtends to come from helping other technical people, not from "everybody". So, while it is absolutely true that I do need admiration, respect, validation, on the skill/expertise front that comes from other technical people, not from the nontechnical family and friends.Quote from: ebastler on November 26, 2024, 07:01:32 pmAgreed. Any kind of traditional portfolio is definitely out. And it's not something I'd tell people about unless they asked about my experience/skills/expertise.Quote from: SteveThackery on November 26, 2024, 10:01:09 pmMy experience indicates otherwise. I seem to surprise people extremely often, even with family members who have known me all my life still being surprised every now and then and telling me "I never knew you coulddo that" or "I never knew you knewthat".

author: bte
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2024, 10:41:32 pm
content: I attached a picture of what I think best describes non-technical people's approach to the topic at hand.During my initial college years, an old(er) relative asked me whether I work on washing machines. Since it was the early years, I was able to get away with the "we are now just dealing with the courses" kind of answer.Later on, after BS and MS degrees, I found a job in software industry which shaped the rest of my career. Then the questions turned into "can you fix my computer" to which I replied along the lines of "I work on server software" and then having to explain the server as "you know, the big computers at the bank's headquarters" (one example).In recent years, the questions are in the form of "can you take a look at my phone" or "can you fix my phone". The approach is similar.It's been a long time since I did stop doing software development in a professional sense, so these days I just try to avoid any questions relating to either field (even if it means staying away from such people).

author: Smokey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2024, 10:52:19 pm
content: I think this is generally true but especially true for highly technical jobs. Unless you do something people actually care about (popular entertainment for example), then they don't really care about the specifics of what you do. People are mostly just being nice if they ask. They don't really care. If you spend too much time/effort going into the details then you are probably boring them to death.I usually say something like "it's like robotics"... or "making consumer electronics widgets". If they nod and smile, I move on. If they ask for more information I'll go into it but only if they actually seem interested and aren't just doing polite small talk.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2024, 11:13:27 pm
content: Quote from: Nominal Animal on November 26, 2024, 10:39:41 pmStill feels a bit pushy from what you describe.A more common way to attempt a start at a relationship is with some common ground. A real world example from myself:Someone walks into a cellar door shop at a wineryBartender "hello are you interested in something in particular"Someone "I'm buying some presents, something of XXX nature would probably do the trick"Bartender "We have some things like that such as YYYY and ZZZ would you like some samples"Someone "No thanks I'm driving but I'll have a dozen of YYY"while bartender goes about collecting the order they make some small talkBartender "What do you do for a living"Someone "I build the scientific instruments that do things like measure the sugar concentration in your wine".... common connection, relatable, they can choose to take it form there

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2024, 11:22:47 pm
content: Quote from: Someone on November 26, 2024, 11:13:27 pmI'm Finnish. We don't do that sort of idle chat.Think more about having coffee and talking about work and life and such with people you know the first and last names of.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2024, 01:12:28 am
content: Quote from: Nominal Animal on November 26, 2024, 11:22:47 pmSounds like Sweden, where people work closely together for 20 years, and don't know if their colleagues are married, have children, how they spend their spare time, and so on. Then some foreigner comes to visit, starts a conversation, and they all open up.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2024, 01:56:52 am
content: Quote from: Nominal Animal on November 26, 2024, 11:22:47 pmThe situation might be different but the point is that you start with some common ground between you and the other person, give them a little nugget that is relatable and they can choose to pursue/ask more if they want (given they have some understanding and language of that common topic).

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2024, 02:21:28 am
content: Quote from: coppice on November 27, 2024, 01:12:28 amNah, I'm very curious, so I tend to find those out the first time we go out to lunch or after-work beer. People do open up to me quite easily, and seem to enjoy talking with me, for some reason. I think it is because I tend to be genuinely interested and curious, even moreso than I'm verbose –– believe or not, I love listening at least as much as I like talking!For me, there just is no idle surface social chatting. It's either technical (or related to interests, science, hobbies), or personal. I don't do "surface social" at all.

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2024, 02:32:39 am
content: Quote from: Someone on November 27, 2024, 01:56:52 amOf course, that's exactly what I do, but it tends to lead to the half an hour of me talking –– often split into shorter parts, when the discussion varies from field or focus to another.The one negative feeling I have about that is that it leaves them no way of verifying what I said,iffthey are interested enough to find out. I do realize that fewer than 1 in 20 ever is, but still, it bothers me. Because of this, I do tend to go into too much detail, and waste their time.I do tend to use my own experience as context, to pry intotheirviews and experience. Like how a technical person can form a team with a non-technical person, say an artist, to produce something neither could do alone, something more than the sum of the parts, and how that can be achieved. Or how I see lack of leadership the single most important problem in Finnish work culture. This leads to more mutually interesting discussions, and is thus moreusefuluse of time.

author: SteveThackery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2024, 11:45:40 am
content: Quote from: Nominal Animal on November 27, 2024, 02:32:39 amThatis the problem you need to fix - not inventing a way of getting that information across differently. You said fewer than 1 in 20 are interested enough in you as a person to pursue further inquiry; I put it to you thatnobodyis.You seem motivated by your need to impress people. Nobody likes that and most people consider it tedious and boring. Trust me, after the 30 minutes you mention they'll be bored out of their brains, stifling yawns, and making a lot of effort to remain polite whilst plotting their escape.I repeat: NOBODY CARES. You are tackling the wrong problem. Instead of inventing ways to impress people in writing, you should be addressing your obvious need for adulation. Fix that and both you and your friends and family will be MUCH happier.Sorry for the bluntness, but it seems appropriate.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2024, 12:33:41 pm
content: Quote from: SteveThackery on November 27, 2024, 11:45:40 amI would take a more differentiated view here:Indeed, probably nobody cares to learn about myskills and achievements-- in a private context; applying for a job or consulting contract is different of course. Doesn't matter whether it's an oral presentation or a website for self-study; there is no demand for this.Some people may care about specificprojectsI have done, because they want to replicate them or take some parts and build upon them. Mostly a more technical audience, but depending on the project maybe non-technical people as well. Probably best served by a website with sufficient in-depth information and documentation.Some people care about me as aperson(hopefully...), and may be interested to learn about things that I currently enjoy, that I currently struggle with etc. Superficial and non-technical dialog, focused more on why I find something exciting than on how it works and how I did it. Typically focused on current projects rather than a complete portfolio. I might happen to have some photos on my phone which I can show if someone is interested -- but those were likely taken for my own documentation or troubleshooting purposes, not to show them around.In my understanding Nominal Animal's interest has at least some overlap with the second and third point?

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2024, 05:35:19 pm
content: Quote from: RJSV on November 26, 2024, 08:49:06 pmThat is it exactly – except my nephews and nieces do know it much better than their parents!Up north, when visiting my mom, there are a lot of folks who knew me as a kid, and want to know what I do. I'm deliberately vague with them, because I know they're not interested in the details, only whether I'm happy doing what I do and so on, so I tend to just say "computer stuff" or "I solve all kinds of computer-related problems except those involving Windows", and maybe tell about a funny project/experience that the asker can relate to, and can counter-ask the same thing. (Except I'm genuinely curious; I could easily do nothing but ask people about their work and worldview and approaches to problem-solving.)The more detailed discussions typically emerge because either someone has done something related to computers and my family/friends/acquintances say I'm "in the same line of work", or because they need something fixed or implemented or have some other related problem. Theyask; I donotvolunteer it.It isnotlike I inject my background or know-how into discussions! I'm much more interested in other peoples' experiences and viewpoints, and prefer to talk about that stuff –– I'm always keen to understand how others see and understand things and problems, and how they approach solving them. It is only when they do start asking that it ends up taking too long for me to explain, especially since I do not have a single focus or job title or other label that could describe what I do.So, you could say that I'm looking for a more efficient way to satisfy non-technical askers wanting to know what I do and know about; with the focus on avoiding misunderstanding rather than to impress them.Quote from: SteveThackery on November 27, 2024, 11:45:40 amI needed to think hard about that, and I must say, I truly believe it is not the case. The reason is, I would not be bothered at all if they didn't ask. What does bother me, is that they seem to mis-assume a lot; to get things wrong –– especially second-hand from my family and friends.I said it before: Idoneed validation from other technical people, and perhaps it is something I need to work on. But it definitely does not extend to non-technical people, and even less to "people" in general.In general, rather than "impressive", I'd rather prefer to be "interesting"; that applies to the kind ofexpositionabout my technical aspects I'm trying to achieve, and am asking about here.In particular, I often mention when discussions veer that way that I personally don't know anything about Windows anymore; my Windows know-how is well over a decade out of date! I have zero need to describe my actual technical know-how, I just want them to know that regardless of what they might have heard, that facet of computing I'm completely dummy at.Quote from: SteveThackery on November 27, 2024, 11:45:40 amQuite possible. Although I'm notconvincedof this yet, I'll consider it thoroughly.Quote from: SteveThackery on November 27, 2024, 11:45:40 amIt is, and I do appreciate it. Thoroughly honest bluntness isin my book. Yes, it stings, but it's like disinfectant: no harm done, quite the opposite.

author: shabaz
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2024, 06:27:30 pm
content: I know in some countries people can't call themselves engineers unless they are formally qualified, I don't know the situation in your country, but maybe you can find a word or two to describe the types of things you have done in a very condensed manner (like sub-three-words).If anyone asks, I just say two words, Engineering slash IT, and that's usually enough.Circuits, hardware, firmware, is information that would leave 99% of people uncomfortable because most cannot relate to it. But everyone knows what IT is at a high level, there are TV shows about it, and even if it's not directly what I do, it's good enough, and no accuracy is needed in the couple of words. I might add a word to that depending on the person asking.Within family/friends, we have various Signal/WhatsApp groups, so there's one for tech stuff, and another for DIY, etc. (One for Sci-Fi too!). The family/friends tech group has eight members, which is already maybe quite large. Sci-Fi has just four.By doing that, you soon find that people who are not in traditionally technical roles, may well have experience and skills in certain bits of engineering, and then some interesting conversations can occur there (in brief sentences! no-one wants to read a wall of text if it's something not core to their interests).

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2024, 07:14:15 pm
content: Quote from: SteveThackery on November 27, 2024, 11:45:40 amAlthough blunt, I think this is correct. Rest is rationalization, trying to make it sound like there is some more noble goal, than just wanting to be admired.But rest assured Nominal, there is nothing weird or wrong in that, nearly everyone wants to impress others, wants to be admired, this is one of the most fundamental traits of a healthy human being. If not, then you are either some kind of Buddha monk, or just so outright depressed you have stopped wanting even that.It is only a problem if you have to resort to narcissist tricks like outright serious lying (normal amount of exaggeration does not count, I mean coming up with completely bogus achievements) to get that admiration from the others. Which I guess you don't have to.

author: Xena E
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2024, 08:26:04 pm
content: It's just a desire for self promotion to others, definitely a human trait, and is present in everyone by some degree, and normal.I think NA's original plan was quite a good one. Shabaz kind of beat me to it with the basic idea for the following:How to implement it is the detail, personally I would suggest setting up a groups.io bio.Make it private and read only. Then only those who you want to see it, can.Give each aspect of what you do it's own hashtag.Make it visual with photos, and with just short and non technical as possible explanations.It is a step back from a public personal blog that those I'd class as having narcissistic personalities may create, and if a person then asks what you do, and go on to ask further details, a link to join NominalAnimal@groups.io could be offered.I wouldn't do this myself, but possibly because I don't feel the locus of my identity is external to me, all that people get told if they casually ask what my job is, is "I'm a Technical Administrator".It's an inadequate term, though in the conjunction they want to know more, I would tell them. I can't remember the last time it happened though, possibly in a questionnaire for home insurance!Regards,X.

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2024, 08:27:43 pm
content: I've met some different LIARS. They are people too, and have varieties.A dating partner lied almost continuously. But, I tolerated her mis-dis-accuracy as she showered myself with good complements!Not so comfortable, is the so-called Gas lighters...that's a reference to the book, but essentially has a person concluding that your truth is a delusion, while they are the 'sane' person in the room.In the book, a husband would turn on the gas and then ask wife; "You turned down the GAS, right ?". (As he messes with her self-trust).Gaslighters seem often to be operating beyond simple everyday comments, seeking some pre-installed doubts, (for whatever end).

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2024, 09:04:54 pm
content: Quote from: Siwastaja on November 27, 2024, 07:14:15 pmI partly disagree. I do need to impresstechnicalpeople, definitely yes –– I know I'm easily manipulated because of that ––, perhaps more than is precisely healthy. So I'm not saying you're wrong per se, either of you.I don't think I want to impress non-technical people, because my emotions say that because they don't know any of this, their opinion on it is irrelevant. (Except of course in the employment domain, and especially HR/admin types, but that's a completely separate issue, better dealt with in a very different fashion. That side is more about self-marketing and self-presentation, or rather the results I can achieve and the results they can expect, but it is outside the topic of this thread.)It is the misunderstandings I really want to avoid, without having to spend half an hour discussing the details.(Thinking about such past discussions, the unease I feel is because Iknowthey don't understand, and I have wasted their time by trying tomake them understand, but really just muddling it even more in their minds. Very unsatisfactory.)When talking about impressing nontechnical people, I feel like "trustworthiness" and "honesty" and "upstanding" and "friendly" and "helpful" are much more in play than any of my technical skills/achievements/projects.Do note that when I started this thread, I wasn't consciously aware of this myself. I only examined this in detail in myself when SteveThackery brought it up, with the help of the other posts above.Thus, let me clarify my goal here:I'm seeking a way to explain what I do and can dosuperficially/intuitively/simplyto nontechnical people, without trying to impress them. I have difficulty with this, because I do not fit nor have any of the standard labels like "engineer" or "PhD".Considering all of the above, I'm leaning towards labeling myself a "researcher". Partly because I technically am, mostly because the associations with that label nontechnical Finns have best match me. It is then easy to control the depth of detail, if they inquire further; most often satisfied with one short sentence. Instead of any kind of gallery/portfolio, I might keep some pictures of interesting projects someone might ask about at hand.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2024, 09:12:51 pm
content: Quote from: Nominal Animal on November 27, 2024, 09:04:54 pmIn German, we have the nice and rather old-fashioned term "Privatgelehrter". Private scholar or independent scholar, probably more common in the humanities than in technical fields, but perfectly usable for those as well. I'm tempted to print business cards with that title once I fully retire.

author: brucehoult
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 29, 2024, 03:51:40 am
content: Quote from: coppice on November 25, 2024, 06:29:19 pmThis is a huge problem, and one of the things I try very hard to do with any bright young people I meet is to tell them that the iPhone in their pocket, airliners, skyscrapers etc were all designed and made by people who probably aren't any smarter than them. Also people from small countries and small towns or rural areas wildly underestimate themselves compared to people from the city, from the USA or Germany etc.I was like that myself. I grew up milking cows and driving tractors and I didn't understand that I was good enough to go and do a PhD in Berkeley or Stanford or MIT and meet the right people to be in on the ground floor of Sun / Apple / Microsoft etc. It wasn't until I was 45+ that I had the confidence to even approach companies like Mozilla, Samsung Research, SiFive (all of which I've worked at).As for OP's question, my standard answer is:I help to make the tools that other programmers use to create web sites and apps. If you use Firefox or an Android phone then you use some of my work. Recently I've been helping to design a new kind of microprocessor and the tools for it. It's already in a lot of things like microwave ovens and drones, and it will start to be in many TVs and cars and phones in three or four years, but you won't know it.

author: shabaz
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 29, 2024, 04:02:33 am
content: Incidentally, it might be unfair on people if you describe yourself as a researcher. Reason is, you're almost forcing people to ask you about what type of research you do, because if they don't ask, it could be impolite (a least in some countries).Whereas, most of what you listed in the original post, could easily be described as (say) technical or IT or engineering, and that's immediately narrowed it down a fair amount for people, and they won't feel obligated to ask you more if they don't want to. Appreciate there's a different culture in play, and in some countries, it's OK to be more blunt, and it's not considered rude.There's a TV show that was on in the background the other day, and one of the guys was very mysterious about his job role, almost obligating people to ask him more. In the end, they found it very boring (his role was actor, and they didn't find that interesting at all, so it was a time waste for them that they had to dig that out of him over several days!).

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 29, 2024, 05:25:36 am
content: Quote from: shabaz on November 29, 2024, 04:02:33 amYup; I do need to specify my focuses somewhat like brucehoult showed, in simple terms.That is, I won't say "I'm a researcher", I will say something like "I'm a researcher, working onstuff". I do need to think about how to phrase "stuff" in a way that is simple enough to be correctly understood by nontechnical people, but cover my main interests. I'll sneakily test some descriptions on my nontechnical close ones to check what seems to work best before I decide on the wording.Quote from: shabaz on November 29, 2024, 04:02:33 amYeah, I don't like that at all. Something simple that does not mislead them, that satisfies surface curiosity, will work best.

author: eleguy
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 29, 2024, 06:22:56 am
content: Quote from: SteveThackery on November 27, 2024, 11:45:40 amWell... some people (like me) have started to "play" with computers, electronics, (...you name it!) very early. Lets call "such" (=us) now for a moment as engineers. When ever someone asks what I do, I typically say (free translation from Finnish) that "I am an engineer. It is such a person who has sat next to his computer when other guys have been partying and after girls. And the result can be seen". Typically people don't ask more.Is it then also me to blame when others don't understand or know what I am doing as I haven't taken big effort enough to explain it ever to anyone? When putting stuff this way I would say I am the one who does not care if anyone understands what I do. One wise guy once said that is how many internally/self motivated people are "seeing" things.I actually just discussed this matter with one who has doctoral degree from faculty of Humanities. She had also noticed that when they speak at work about their spouses typically people are very interested (meaning questions and discussion can go on and on) from the "other halves" if they are also working / studied humanities/social science in any form. BUT!! If one has an engineer as a spouse then he/she answers to the question "what does your spouse do?" typically just simply "he/she is an engineer" and the discussion moves to some other topic.

author: shabaz
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 29, 2024, 06:40:17 am
content: There's so many other things that define you, it's no surprise people don't want detail on the job role. As long as they can see you're happy in what you do, that's all they care about.Beyond that, I think they would be more interested in spouse/partner funny stories, or what music events you went to, your favorite drink, or what restaurants you've enjoyed or hated recently, what arguments you had, how you're dealing with your kids if you have some, what style you're decorating your home or whatever. All these are real-world interesting things, just as much as engineering, etc, is to an engineer.Also, worth noticing, that in all the discussion, no-one has said to you "hey that's interesting, tell us more about that job role that you did". Not because what you did was boring (all of us on this thread pretty much have described our jobs, and none of us have asked for more information about anyone else). Simply, people would ask if they thought you didn't enjoy your work (engineers love to solve problems like that too), but that's not the case. So, if even engineers won't dig too deep into other people's job roles, it's very unlikely that non-engineers will want to know very much. The fact that family etc just want you to be happy in your work is pretty much a success as it is, leaving you time to talk about the other interesting stuff in life.