Do kits provide any value to learning electronics - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / beginners

author: eventhorizon
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2016, 06:51:04 pm
content: This is something I have been pondering for a little while and see these kits all over amazon while looking at/for things. Do you feel that they provide any real learning into circuit design and electronics or are most of them a way for the manufacture to cut cost and have you do the soldering? I do understand that you get out what you put into them and sure I could also read the source code for all the software that I ./configure; make; make install too and learn programming but I know from experience in programming that reading code make your programming literate and not a programmer.So what do you guys think buy some kits and learn or books datasheets and google and leave the kits for a fun little time wasting side project?(Unrelated but hello from Austin, TX. I am new to electronics but have been a linux engineer for a long time and finally decided to do what I have always wanted to do and learn electronics to finally understand how all these crazy gadgets I have around work and who knows make some of my own.)

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2016, 07:21:43 pm
content: I think the learning depends entirely on whether the kit includes not only the schematic, but principles of operation, etc. Cheap kits don't. Nor are kits cheaper than buying the finished product; on the contrary, it's often more because bagging parts costs more than letting a pick and place machine assemble them. (And the volume of kits isn't that big compared to finished goods.)Nonetheless, kits can still be fun to assemble, and they're great practice for assembly skills, like soldering.(I wish there still existed REAL kits, like in the Heathkit days.)

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2016, 07:22:16 pm
content: I suppose they're good for soldering practise.Cost saving is not a reason. Kits are generally more expensive that just buying the same thing pre-built.

author: edavid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2016, 07:30:09 pm
content: Simple modules (e.g. DC-DC converters, audio amps) can certainly help you learn about circuits and how to use your test equipment.As long as you have or can figure out the schematic, assembled modules are as good as kits for that.Kits are good for soldering practice, or if you want to modify the circuit, or if you want to build something more rugged than a hand wired circuit.P.S. I don't understand the nostalgia for Heathkits, because they were the worst as far as learning goes. The manual was 50 pages of how long to cut each wire, and then 1 page of schematic and theory of operation.

author: GreyWoolfe
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 18, 2016, 07:35:49 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on September 18, 2016, 07:21:43 pmI would have loved to build a HeathKit kit. You still see unbuilt kits on eBay but they are a bit too rich for my blood, especially since it probably is best practice to get all new caps for any kit you buy. There is an unbuilt HW-9 that is almost done auction wise that is up to $450. It was $250 in 1980 which is $770 now. A good price but, as I said, too rich for my blood.edavid, you're right, there is a lot of nostalgia for HeathKit. I don't understand it either but it would still be fun to build one. I have talked to a lot of fellow hams that have built them and they said it was a blast to build.

author: eventhorizon
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2016, 07:51:21 pm
content: Thanks for the quick response guys. I guess I never looked at the price between the kits and the finished product but I guess it does make since it would be cheaper with machines and what not doing the assembly. I have seen a couple DC-DC kits and well decided to just get some lm317s instead as I have seen the circuit for a constant current circuit and it just does not make any since to to so im going to build one. I did a dso-138 kit for the fun of it and learned that I need more solder practice but nothing about how it works or why it does what it does. I think I may need to see if I can find good solid kits but its almost more fun for me to breadboard and research.

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2016, 08:00:30 pm
content: For what it's worth, that little DSO-138 is a good kit to build (only available in kit form), but it is a real pig to solder. I think it's down to the very small pad sizes, so your soldering is probably better than you think (assuming it works that is!). They do include a schematic which isn't too difficult to work out once you get into it.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2016, 08:06:20 pm
content: Quote from: GreyWoolfe on September 18, 2016, 07:35:49 pmI started building Heathkits in the mid '50s with an 8 watt amplifier that I converted into an intercom between my house and my friends a few doors down. His father gathered up some field telephone wire and we ran it down the alleyway behing the houses.Over the years I have build several of their kits up until about the late '70s.Did I learn anything about electronics? Probably not. But I learned the valuable skill of following directions and, of course, I learned to solder. Every one of the kits worked.If they were still in business I would probably be buying even more kits. They were fun to build!

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 18, 2016, 08:20:47 pm
content: QuoteI think kits are nice to get a first feel for electronics and also get that immensely proud feeling when you have made/assembled something yourself that actually works. Like rstofer said it also helps if you can follow directions closely. Often you will have to follow directions if you want to get library XY up and running in embedded systems for example. However, I would agree with the other people here, that you will probably not learn a lot about electronics theory in general...Just keep doing it if your having fun or stop if you don't

author: eventhorizon
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2016, 09:15:43 pm
content: Quote from: Gyro on September 18, 2016, 08:00:30 pmYep shes running. I did think that the pads were a bit small but I said who knows it could be some standard as I just finally got my mind around the difference between voltage and amperage so my knowledge of standards and sizes is none.Quote from: pla on September 18, 2016, 08:20:47 pmYep I was walking around like something special when I connected it and I seen a square wave on the screen

author: djacobow
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2016, 09:54:56 pm
content: I know electronics reasonably well, and I am an EE, but I still enjoy building kits.In addition to it being relaxing, kits give you a chance to meditate on someone else's design choices. Sometimes I also see a new technique or learn about a part I did not know about.Best,Dave J

author: JS
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2016, 10:13:46 pm
content: I never built a kit, I started with guitar pedals that are such easy and still really rewarding things that I keep it going till I had quite some experience. Sourcing few common parts was easy locally, for building such small projects was still cheap. I wouldn't know how would getting a kit at that time would be, I was around 14yo, grabbed my bike and to the sparks store, give me two 2n3904, one tl072, this twenty resistors and ten caps. back home, burn them away.If you don't play the guitar I don't know how to get it started as such simple level, one opamp and 2 diodes makes so much. Then you can go increasing in complexity to crazy levels, digital delays or automating things, modifying existing circuits, etc. I seriously don't know any other application where one opamp would make your day, not only for a 14yo kid but any guitar player.You are already much more into, I wouldn't point you to do kits, if it's turns out to be practical to order a kit rather than sourcing the parts and making or buying just the PCB, go for it. If ordering the components directly for a supplier is not a problem for you, I'd say that's the way to go. PCBs are quite a challenge once you start to get into it, I have a decent method and tooling for etching the boards and here is really hard to source PCBs fast for prototypes, and I already manage to go a bit further than just for prototyping.JS

author: JPortici
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2016, 10:29:36 pm
content: if you just want to assemble and get to the result, no they will never do.

author: BMack
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2016, 12:42:58 am
content: Quote from: GreyWoolfe on September 18, 2016, 07:35:49 pmI'm not young but too young to have built Heathkit kits but the shop I work at has a bunch of them. The shop has been open for over 40 years and the owner was doing it for longer than that. Every single one of the Heathkits were at once used every day, now they are used less but they STILL work and work well. They've never failed, never been rebuilt, the just work. In fact, Heathkit is what led me to fall in love with audio(signal) tracers, sometimes they're a lot easier to use than an oscilloscope due to size of the unit you're working on or how it's packaged(a console stereo for example).

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 19, 2016, 02:22:09 am
content: Quote from: pla on September 18, 2016, 08:20:47 pmThis is very true - and the point I would like to add is that, once you have had the taste of success, your confidence grows and your curiosity is encouraged (that is, if you are the curious type.)You may then find your kit is lacking in some function or you might want to adapt it to a specific purpose - either of which will take you into circuit design. There you WILL start learning ... and starting from a functional circuit gives you a very useful reference.Interest grows from there.AND Let's not forget ... you will learn LOTS when you have a kit that doesn't work and you persevere until you've got it up and running!

author: Kappes Buur
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2016, 06:31:52 am
content: Assembling kits definitely provides some education. Mainly how to solder.When the kit does not work after assembly it can also teach patience and perseverence if one wants to correct parts placement or replacement.However, what does it teach about the basics of electronics? Nothing.In my estimation, the best approach to learning electronics is as outlined in this course:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/beginners/electronics-primers-course-material-and-books/msg595164/#msg595164

author: joseph nicholas
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2016, 09:26:20 am
content: My first experience building a kit was a disaster. It was a Heathkit cristal radio.Fifty-five years later I built a DSO138 and got it working after replacing a voltage regulator. The thing works great and I have learned about voltage regulators an other things like negative an positive voltages in the process. If you are on a budget and most young people are, you will quickly find building kits are about half the cost of paying for things assembled. If money is no object dont was your time, if you arent curious dont bother since any mass manufactured product is likely to be better.

author: mrpackethead
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2016, 09:29:30 am
content: its not going to provide negetive value.

author: Ammar
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2016, 12:36:18 pm
content: I started with the funway into electronics kits from Dick Smith (back in the day when they sold components). The explanations of how the circuits worked were quite good, as well as the practice soldering.I think most people started on them when they were around 10 years old or something, so depends on your age and previous experience with other subject matter too.

author: setq
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2016, 12:52:54 pm
content: Yes they do.I'd like to see a resurgence in proper kits if I'm honest. When I say proper kits, I don't mean wanky flashing LED shit and self-congratulationary back patting crap from Adafruit or Sparkfun but stuff that you actually have to put someseriouseffort and understanding to put together. The nearest we see these days is ham transceiver kits.Heath used to do a series of training kits where you would receive an analog trainer kit (ET-3100/3600) and a massive book and some components. You had to build the trainer (sig gen, power supply, breadboard basically) and then learn how everything worked. So you developed both construction and design skills by the time you had finished it:Then when you hit the equipment wall, you shelled out for the oscilloscope kit and built that.If you needed a meter, you bought a multimeter kit and built that:The problem comes is that it's 2016 and you can buy a superior multimeter for $5 an oscilloscope for $100 and a box of shit from China for $50.However it's the journey that counts and everyone has forgotten that for a quick fix and a black box that does what they want already for a low price therefore deriving themselves of experience and satisfaction of building the tools they use and working with them over a long period of time.

author: Tandy
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2016, 01:01:47 pm
content: Kits vary enormously, a single purpose kit teaches you very little, especially if the instructions don't give any information on how the circuit works. However they do offer a great introduction to someone who would otherwise have no electronics experience. You get to practice soldering, learn to identify components and perhaps learn from some mistakes like putting an LED in backwards or something. The best thing however is the sense of achievement, just the same as gluing together the pieces of an Airfix kit it feels good to know you completed the project. All the parts were supplied ready made but the sense of achievement is often the starting point to learn more.Some of the better kits have good explanations how a circuit works sometimes with advice on modifications that can be made. This kind of thing does teach you the theory and perhaps inspire you to build something using the ideas you have learnt.The multi-purpose kits like the Science Fair 130 in 1 are quite educational as you can make numerous simple circuits and gain an understanding of what simple building blocks can be used together to create more complex circuits.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 19, 2016, 01:25:30 pm
content: If the kit fails to work first go then you learn alottroubleshooting it.

author: rrinker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2016, 01:35:56 pm
content: Indeed. After I graduated from basic electricity, using light bulbs, switches, and batteries, my next step were several iterations of those X in 1 kits. The manuals for those generally explained how the particular circuit worked and gave a good basic introduction to electronics. Later on, I built some of the Science Fair P-Box kits, these came in a plastic box, one half of which was a red plastic perforated piece and the other a clear plastic (later smoked) cover, with the parts and instructions inside. You built it on top of the red part, inverted so the wiring was hidden underneath, and had the clear plastic top to fit over the components when not in use. I had a bunch of these - neon light sequencer, shortwave radio receiver, indoor/outdoor thermometer. The instructions supplied with these always explained the theory of operation as well.In today's surface mount world it may be different, but it used to be that kits were less expensive than the built up model, plus there was also some satisfaction in "doing it yourself". Just like other hobbies, the kit concept seems to be disappearing. Too many people want instant gratification. It's probably the same in electronics, but in model building, the kit makers found that they could take their $5 kit, have it assembled by the same Chinese factory that was doing the injection molding for $1 per kit, and now sell the fully assembled version for $30. Netting a much higher profit PLUS no longer having to deal with people who lost, were missing, or broke a piece in the kit.

author: setq
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2016, 02:05:43 pm
content: Ikea still do ok so there must be a mid ground somewhere.

author: Tandy
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2016, 02:08:59 pm
content: Quote from: setq on September 19, 2016, 02:05:43 pmI assume said partly in jest but it is a good example, putting together Ikea (and other flat pack) furniture I learnt a lot about how furniture is put together, the shortcomings of the designs and I have successfully build my own storage units etc by copying what I learnt and improving on it.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2016, 02:11:38 pm
content: Kits often teach quite a bit because they aren't quite up to what they claim. Figuring out the differences is where the learning occurs.This is true even for the best manufacturers. Some of my best learning came from a Heathkit 25" television kit. The set worked fine initially, but failed early. Turned out that a component was being used beyond its rating. That same set had built in alignment and analysis tools for adjusting the picture. Learned things I would never have known about video and color processing.

author: setq
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2016, 02:53:50 pm
content: Definitely. I have a Heathkit IP-2718 power supply, built by a complete muppet, which had a couple of metering issues on it. Solving these I learned all sorts about moving coil meters, shunts, multipliers and tolerances.Quote from: Tandy on September 19, 2016, 02:08:59 pmI was actually completely seriousThese are kits that make SWMBO happy, unlike the electronic ones

author: djacobow
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2016, 03:07:51 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on September 19, 2016, 01:25:30 pmOne of my earliest kits was a Heathkit 19" color television. I was 13 y.o. It was obviously a large, complex kit. Some boards you had to assemble, some came assembled.In any case, when I first powered it up, magic smoke came out. I found the damaged component on the main board and ordered a new main board to assemble. It smoked the same way. After much time upset, and much time debugging, I finally worked out that the one un-keyed cable harness in the whole kit was in backwards. After calibrating the beams, the TV worked perfectly for 25 years until my folks tossed it, working, for an LCD jobbie.The Heathkit manual had a detailed section on theory of operation. I learned a lot from that. Also, you really can't assemble a television without learning a bit how they work. In particular, they require calibration of the RGB beams by moving the control yolk and some fixed magnets. That means you can't escape without learning at least that there are beams.Well, were beams. Today, all that knowledge of how a CRT TV worked is grampa-level, like knowing how to chink a log cabin.

author: eventhorizon
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2016, 04:14:01 pm
content: I think a lot of people did say something that I have said a lot of times but didn't think about. You learn more when things don't work. I can't think about how many time I have said that when talking about system design. I have actually been looking for things that do not work so I can take them apart and try and fix them. One of the issues that I have with electronics is that I try applying what I do when I have an issue with programming or want to know how some code works is follow the data and when I try to do that with a circuit I get lost in the first couple steps when trying to follow the path of voltage or what not. A perfect example is the EEVblog #221 - Lab Power Supply Design. I have tried this 3 times and as soon as he leaves the lm317 to the new design im lost I have even tried to pause the video and draw the circuit on paper and nothing its just lines to me. This is why I came to this thread is because I figured I would just give a lm317 a go because its simple (so I thought) and I seen kits that do it for me and I was bouncing back and forth on getting the kit or a bag of 317s and well now I have a bag of 317s and heading back to amazon for heatsinks because I forgot.Sidenote the Heathkit stuff looks really impressive even today and even a color tv kit man thats something.

author: jonovid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2016, 04:18:14 pm
content: QuoteSo True, But there was a time when Kits did save you money. see imagesThe Z80 based single-board computer released by Talking Electronics in Australia - andPlaymaster 116 40W Valve Amp - Circuit published by Electronics Australia June 1967kits Do provide Value to learning electronics . IF say the kit is say in-part pre-built Surface mount components.too fiddly for most without a microscope,but lets the builder decided what to add in customization say using thru-hole parts or re-programming its micro. one circuit board as a Kit can be lots of similar projects, say a 8 in one audio amp kit or a 16 in 1 home automation kit, a saving in cost. ideal kit circuit boards should be party translucent. not black, if a multi-layer PCB is used, the schematic needs to show this.

author: darrellg
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 19, 2016, 05:11:44 pm
content: Quote from: rstofer on September 18, 2016, 08:06:20 pmThey're back...https://www.heathkit.com/

author: joseph nicholas
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2016, 05:25:53 pm
content: Quote from: mrpackethead on September 19, 2016, 09:29:30 amThe DSO138 uses positive and negative transistors, if thats what you mean.

author: N2IXK
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2016, 07:16:02 pm
content: I have built and restored many Heathkits over the years, and you can get as much electronics education out of them as you want to. It is certainly possible for the rank novice to simply follow the directions and end up with a working item. Even then, the builder would gain a knowledge of component identification, color codes, soldering and wiring practices, and mechanical assembly.The more complex kits had excellent "Theory of Operation" sections in the manual, which described the circuitry in exacting detail. I recently assembled a Heathkit 25" color TV kit that had been in storage since the early 1970s, and the circuit theory and schematics fill an entire manual by themselves (the assembly instructions cover 5 volumes, and a 6th is reserved for troubleshooting). For this particular kit, there were 2 sets of instructions for doing the final setup and alignment, one using the minimal instruments (a VOM and dot generator built into the set), and a more complete procedure using a scope and sweep/marker generator. Anyone interested in details can see the thread over at Videokarma that I posted during the build:http://videokarma.org/showthread.php?t=266891Heathkits tended to be built like the proverbial brick outhouse, and lent themselves to user modifications and tinkering like no commercial gear ever did. I'm working up a mod to add composite and S-video inputs to the TV kit to make it more useful now that OTA analog TV is gone. They used largely off the shelf parts and basic circuit designs that served as a good baseline for further experimentation if you developed an interest in the actual workings of the kit, rather than just using it as a consumer device. Heathkit is sorely missed as one of the early influences that pushed me toward a career in electronics, that kids growing up now will never know. The Heathkit model is MUCH harder to pull off in this age of BGA packages and similar devices that require specialized equipment to handle, solder and test. There is still a lot to be said for components you can actually see and work with using your hands rather than a microscope and tweezers....

author: rjardina
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2016, 10:14:41 pm
content: Learning? I build kits to get the women, I can't keep them off me when I out wearing this. Best $6USD I ever spent.

author: eventhorizon
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2016, 10:23:23 pm
content: Quote from: rjardina on September 19, 2016, 10:14:41 pmI think we have a winner here. My wife loved me so much more after I finished the dso138

author: @rt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 20, 2016, 11:54:19 am
content: The kids kits that are part of a complete system certainly will... Such as the old 200 in 1 kits, or Dick Smith’s old Funway 1/2/3,which I think is now forcibly replaced with Jaycar’s Short Circuits.

author: rrinker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 20, 2016, 05:05:28 pm
content: Quote from: rjardina on September 19, 2016, 10:14:41 pmIf that pulls women, I can only imagine what would happen if I built and wore one of the nixie watches.