eevBLAB #72 - BUSTED! Medtronics Open Ventilator FAIL - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 31, 2020, 01:12:58 am
content: Unfortunately Medtronics opening up their design files for their Puritan Bennett 560 Ventilator is not much more than a publicity stunt.

author: navin_siri
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: March 31, 2020, 01:57:30 am
content: Hey Dave, I think this is somewhat unfair. The word "Open Source" is not used on the company website, which I think would give a clear insight to the intentions of the company to not intending to actually be open source. If they actually wanted to be open source, wouldn't they plaster that word everywhere?

author: johnlsenchak
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2020, 03:33:42 am
content: This is just speculation on my part , but maybe a company like Medtronics is being careful not putting all the technical information online due to the fact that a rogue country like China would use them for profit The country is well known known for stealing documents for the purpose of creating counterfeit products of low qualityIf push came to shove and you where in need of ventilator would you trust one from made in China ? I wouldn't

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 31, 2020, 04:34:25 am
content: Quote from: navin_siri on March 31, 2020, 01:57:30 amThey have "open" in the URL Medtronic.com/openventilatorIn their press release:QuoteSorry, I'm calling BS on that.Sure they aren't saying "open source", but that's not the point, they are clearly trying to give the impression that they are saving the world by releasing "design information", in full knowledge that the media are going to run with this as it seems they have done.What they have instead released of any real value is the requirements documents, and only then really useful to a multi-year approved product design effort (I stand to be corrected on that). It would do very little or nothing to address any need for ventilatorsnow.And even then you've gotta read the permissive license very carefully, as the license ends the final day the WHO’s Pandemic call is in effect is in effect, or October 1, 2024, whichever comes first.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 31, 2020, 05:06:31 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on March 31, 2020, 04:34:25 amWhich is what you would expect from the Media.Details, accuracy, practicalities and other engineering aspects are totally irrelevant. Their job is to attract people's attention - so they can sell their audience to advertisers. Actually saving lives would be a bonus story - but they won't be betting on that one. It's enough that they can sell theideaof that happening.

author: Mr.B
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 31, 2020, 05:10:37 am
content: A 100% Medtronics publicity stunt.Deliberately manipulating the dumb media to pull on the heartstrings of the common public to appear that they alone will save the world.I hope their share value dives and the fleas of a thousand camels infest their patents.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 31, 2020, 05:13:44 am
content: Now, the cynic in me might also think it may have something to do with how Medtronic failed to deliver ventilator for a US government contract since 2015:https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/29/business/coronavirus-us-ventilator-shortage.htmlQuote

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2020, 08:57:04 am
content: Do not know why they call it open source. To me the message was clear when i saw :"Our specification, your ingenuity"Their specification. Specification. Get it?

author: Smokey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2020, 08:57:44 am
content: I haven't looked at these documents to see what's exactly in them, but it sounds like there is enough to essentially make/use their specification for this machine.Having an established proven working specification is a HUGE time saver for an engineering effort. Anyone that wants to make themselves a device now would have the roadmap. The spec if the map. If you are actually capable of doing the engineering work across multiple disciplines or leading a team, which most people aren't, then this would be enough to get you going.I don't design ventilators, so if you asked me to make one from scratch I would need to first make a detailed specification to ensure I really understood all the important aspects of the problem at hand. As any engineer knows that has ever had to go through this process, you cut corners on the spec at your own peril. When you have that "You mean I need to monitor the oxygen concentration of the exhaled air? I didn't think of that! No one told me that! I need to do another rev!" moment, you are going to wish you had a proven design spec to work from at the beginning.

author: Smokey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2020, 09:04:05 am
content: ::Rant on::I feel like this is another example of why "open hardware", especially whole complicated product designs, is to a large extent a lie anyway.(By lie I mean having a chance at recreating the device by yourself)Take just one piece here. Say they gave you the cad files for the injection molds, AND you happen to either be an injection mold expert or have an amazingly excellent relationship with an injection molding company that is willing to stop all their other paying work to help you try to make a ventilator. Great. How long does it take to have the dies machined for your specific injection molding machine? How long to get the dies modified after they come back and don't work the first time (and likely second time)? How much machine time and material cost can you dedicate to this side project? And this is all assuming you already knew what you were doing. Your average garage hacker has a zero chance of success here.The same thing goes for essentially every part of a machine like this. Metal parts need a machine shop, which means stuff like fixtures and CNC programs (more iterations). Electrical parts need PCBs and components sourced, and stencils, and pick and place programs, and bed of nails fixtures (more iterations). You probably need a fairly complicated final functional test setup that involves references like specific O2 concentrations and calibrated flow rates (more iterations). All these manufacturing processes are iterated over many revs before the bugs are worked out at a serious cost of time and money and man hours. What's the MTBF? Once a design is rolling in production you don't make any non-essential changes (part substitutions, vendor switches, skip procedures) because you can't foresee all the consequences but you think some garage hacker can get all this working in a short period of time. This thing needs to run 24/7 and CAN NOT FAIL. Can you ensure that? Oh yeah, and did anyone mention that some places are already at their peak ventilator demand now and others will be there in weeks, so you have to sort all this out by yesterday.Again, garage hacker is going to fail here even if they have 100% of the manufacturing design files. Even big companies that make products with related processes is going to fail at immediately recreating someone else's design before they go through all the manufacturing process iteration.Making a medical device has a seriously high bar for a reason! The consequences of failure at any step here is that you may kill someone who otherwise might not have died. That's not helping. Any medical professional that has to debug your ventilator in the field is wasting time that could be saving someone's life.Like Dave said. A big chunk of this is mechanical, and he's not a mechanical guy, so this isn't what he does. It would be so much easier if all the garage hackers could come to the same conclusion and stop this "lets build a ventilator" stuff.If you actually want to help now, go volunteer delivering groceries to some old folks.

author: G7PSK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2020, 09:15:53 am
content: It would seem that CPAP machines would be better that the ventilators as they save people from needing the ventilators in the first place.https://news.sky.com/story/coronavirus-mercedes-helps-develop-breathing-aid-as-f1-teams-join-ventilators-effort-11965584

author: Smokey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2020, 09:21:36 am
content: Quote from: G7PSK on March 31, 2020, 09:15:53 amI read normal CPAP machines contaminate the whole room with exhausted virus.

author: G7PSK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2020, 09:42:28 am
content: Quote from: Smokey on March 31, 2020, 09:21:36 amBut most corona virus patients are in an open ward with other corona virus patients. It is only when things get really bad they go to intensive care the CPAP machines keep at least 50% of patients out of intensive care which is a big win, the CPAP machines are cheaper and easier to manufacture as well.

author: nardev
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 31, 2020, 10:11:14 am
content: I already posted this on another thread. Just wondering what those guys from Turkey made? Can't find any more info for now, looks like they made a HUGE team to build this very quickly.The post:Check this out:https://twitter.com/Selcuk/status/1244661929777532930Looks like the team:https://twitter.com/Selcuk/status/1244663216313155587I'm i'm not wrong the pictures from the process:https://twitter.com/Selcuk/status/1243539495401783320Also the clip is here:

author: ormaaj
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2020, 02:31:55 pm
content: It is doubtful that flexible licensing was a consideration in designing the software stack for a product like this. They're probabaly licensing dozens of 3rd party libraries and running some proprietary RTOS. All of the supporting code and software will need to be replaced with something that permits at least 3rd party redistribution and ideally modification. Custom code for the specific device will then need to be reworked or rewritten around that.

author: Michael_P
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2020, 06:23:37 pm
content: take a look

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2020, 08:11:53 pm
content: Other discussion here:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/medtronics-open-source-ventilator-bullshit-pr/?topicseenFor the code, there is the chance they want to do an internal audit before release. You wouldn't want to release code that has any hint of liability eg "//this line caused vent to crash once and the motor stopped".I'm not sure if you have to submit code for review on medical devices normally? If so then no excuse there.

author: bushjavier
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: March 31, 2020, 08:55:44 pm
content: Please check the website again they are releasing more files, the say more to come. The new release come with a lot of mechanical stuff.Medtronic PB560 Ventilator System – Release 2.0 (.zip)Includes:Manufacturing fixturesPrinted circuit board drawings (including multiple BOMs)3D CAD filesMechanical part drawings

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2020, 09:09:46 pm
content: They've released schematics, gerbers, PCB layouts and BOMs, which actually makes these files quite useful now. All that's missing is software which arguably is a huge part. It would be nice if they at least released binary blobs for firmware, they could watermark the units with the "COVID-19 disclaimer" in the licence document if needed.

author: BrianHG
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2020, 08:15:45 am
content: Quote from: bushjavier on March 31, 2020, 08:55:44 pmCareful, read the required 'Permissive License'. You need to register to get the cad files because it's designed to be a legal trap once the terms in the permissive license has reached it's imposed 2 possible deadlines:https://youtu.be/TltM74rNasM?t=152

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 01, 2020, 02:40:13 pm
content: I can see some possible reasoning behind the staged release of information...Stage 1. Paint a picture of just how involved the design of such a product is. Give those opportunists who want to jump in to make a quick buck something to think about.Stage 2. Provide all the information to produce the physical product which will show just how much effort will be required to produce this thing. If anyone wants to take this on, then they will need to be pretty capable!Stage 3. Release the software. If you've made it this far, then why not be able to get the product out.As for the licence - why all the cynicism? Why all the criticism? It is very clear Medtronics have invested quite a lot into the development of this product ... just imagine the hours that have gone into the documentation presented, let alone all the R&D that went into their production.Why should they completely give that up?As I see it, the licence is meant to maketheirdesign available for others to manufactureduring a time of needand that once that period has passed, they are closing that offer and regaining direct financial interest. They were entitled to this before the pandemic and nobody would have questioned it then, so why should their desire to reclaim this control be a problem? Remember, the purpose of this action is the facilitation of health services - and this licence allows such an outcome. It would be absurd to think that they are just "giving it all away". Also, by spelling all this up front, no manufacturer should expect anything less ... and it allows them to make sure they are prepared for the inevitable end of such an arrangement.Having the licence conditional on gaining the relevant approvals is just a further protection that the clones produced will be of an appropriate quality as to serve the purpose. This prevents half-assed efforts from being produced and flogged off - which could cause more problems than exist already.To put it another way - How would you present a design of yours for alternate production in a time of need without losing all benefits of something you spent years developing?

author: ormaaj
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2020, 06:38:04 pm
content: Quote from: Brumby on April 01, 2020, 02:40:13 pmI don't know that they're necessarily giving up anything. Anybody that wants is still free to buy one from them, which will be the vastly cheaper easier route. Major well-funded competitors won't give a crap or bother looking at this design. The only risk is in being undercut by Chinese knockoffs. U.S. health providers probably wouldn't touch something like that if it risks liability.

author: Doctorandus_P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2020, 10:23:56 pm
content: When I saw the first blab, the first thing I thought was Jeez, give this company some slack.It's probably a rush job in an understaffed company that may be trying to help while the phone is busy because everybody is trying to buy ventilators.I gather it's a 10+ year old design. and it seems "normal" that design files "get lost".They may have well have a software team working on figureing out if they are even allowed to release the sourcecode and the libraries to build the thing.It's probably not their most sophisticated design. I haven't checked but it may have been out of production for years and they have to go through closets and old backups to find info.This also seems to me to be the most logical reason for stuff being released in stages. They just release what they have when they've found it.

author: ejtagle
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: April 01, 2020, 10:31:05 pm
content: There you have: The 3rd link includes all the source code of both boards. BTW: I am not related to MedTronic in any way. I just tried a little bit harder to get all the parts of the project!https://www.medtronic.com/content/dam/medtronic-com/global/Corporate/covid19/downloads/ventilator-files/medtronic-pb560-ventilator-system-file-set-1.ziphttps://www.medtronic.com/content/dam/medtronic-com/global/Corporate/covid19/downloads/ventilator-files/medtronic-pb560-ventilator-system-file-set-2.ziphttps://www.medtronic.com/content/dam/medtronic-com/global/Corporate/covid19/downloads/ventilator-files/medtronic-pb560-ventilator-system-file-set-3.zip

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 02, 2020, 02:14:04 am
content: Quote from: ormaaj on April 01, 2020, 06:38:04 pmPerhaps you misunderstand me. I am not suggesting that they completely give up anything - but it seems to me that others are.Comments I have heard indicate an expectation that Medtronics revoking the licence (at known and not open-ended conditions) is unfair to those who do enter manufacture ... and that Medtronics shutting that down is being mean and nasty. The implication being that these manufacturers should be allowed to continue. In that case, Medtronics will have lost the rights to their product to the world.As I see it, the Medtronics licencing here is very much the same as Disney licencing the use of Mickey Mouse. The licensee can benefit from that under the terms of the licence - and that licence is not a free pass by any stretch of the imagination.

author: Dr Bob
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2020, 03:25:04 am
content: I expect that they need to go through the software and scrub out the "Medtronic" name and any mention of Medtronic or associated companies in the code. There may also be 3rd party licensed code fragments that Medtronic is contractually prevented from releasing without permission which may take time to get sorted out.Dave Jones, thanks for pointing out that it's a good idea to included Data Sheets with documentation. I've done it for years but when I was in aerospace, I rarely found other engineers following that practice which meant having to pull them all up myself when going over implemented hardware.

author: Dr Bob
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2020, 03:38:57 am
content: The design in question appears to be the most basic ventilator that's been on the market for a decade. Dave is correct in pointing out that anybody that wants to manufacture from the design understand going in what all of the ramifications of the license might be. What happens if the pandemic status is downgraded and you have a few thousand complete units in stock and another thousand in process? Can you sell all or some of those or will you be required to destroy them? I'd like to have a license that states that I have X days to wind down production and the ability to sell remaining completed stock for X period of time to recoup component costs. Perhaps Medtronic would be open to that but it would need to be formal and in writing.There's no knowing how long the pandemic status will apply, so it could be a huge gamble to get into manufacturing ventilators on Medtronic's existing terms. If you wind up production and the day after you go into producing finished units the license ends, you could be out thousands of dollars and sitting on a huge inventory of parts and trained employees that you won't be able to pay. Maybe sales to government stockpiles can be allowed for a specified interval. That would keep units off of the general market, but still on hand for the next time. Maybe all you can get is cost, but it keeps you from destitute through trying to help.I don't worry about the sticker that reads "For Covid-19 use only". That will come off easily in third world countries that don't have as many lawyers as they have limitations on health care spending.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 02, 2020, 03:44:05 am
content: Quote from: Dr Bob on April 02, 2020, 03:38:57 amThat is, indeed, a very important question - and Medtronics should address that immediately. I expect potential manufacturers would be unlikely to dive in without a satisfactory answer.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 02, 2020, 03:57:20 am
content: They have again modified their web page replacing"Our hope is that manufacturers and engineers will use this intellectual property to inspire their own potentially lifesaving innovations."with"Medtronic publicly posted design specifications for the Puritan BennettTM 560 (PB560) to allow innovators, inventors, start-ups, and academic institutions to leverage their own expertise and resources to evaluate options for rapid ventilator manufacturing. Medtronic’s goal has been to release this information in phases over the course a brief period."Bet you bottom dollar that is deliberate.

author: Lord of nothing
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2020, 03:39:25 pm
content: QuoteWell I am afraid get on one "of the shelf" one who maybe Damage my organs more.I personally would say its better to die than "life" like a Vegetable. Thats just my opinion.Another Topic is in many Country where People must pay for every Medical Treatment them self what should the do when the get released and must pay a 5 or even 6 digit Amount for be on a ICU?

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 06, 2020, 02:15:27 pm
content: Virgin Orbit asked Real Engineering take down his video. What a bunch of dicks!

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2020, 05:31:21 pm
content: I don't think Medtronics ever intended for their life safety device to be built in someone's garage. I rather expect they released the design for major companies (General Motors, Ford Motor Company, et al) to get a head start on complying with President Trump's order that they begin manufacturing ventilators rather than automobiles.It would take years for those major manufacturers to come up with a design that could be approved and Medtronics, to their credit, just shortened the startup time.Picking on Ford and GM was based on the idea that these companies can manufacture a LOT of product. They have the machine tools, they have the machinists, they have engineering and procurement plus they have money. What they need is something to work on. Now they have the design of a device that is already FDA approved. Copy and Paste!All that assumes that the BOM stuff is actually available and, of course, they would be competing with Medtronics for those components. I think the real problem is going to be with the small parts manufacturers. Maybe Ford or GM will have to buy those companies and kick up the production rates. Automobile manufacturers understand volume.Life safety based on Open Source? Really? I'm going to trust a machine built in my neighbor's garage? Have any of these builders though about the amount of liability insurance they're going to need?I suppose Arduinos will show up here as well.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2020, 05:43:44 pm
content: Quote from: Brumby on April 02, 2020, 03:44:05 amI know the automakers were concerned about the money when Trump ordered them to start building ventilators but no other companies have the resources of GM and Ford.Here's an interesting article:https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/05/automakers-gm-ford-ventilators-coronavirus-detroitNote the size of the plants - multiple millions of square feet available for these projects.Now all they have to do is get the autoworkers on the same page.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2020, 06:01:41 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on April 02, 2020, 03:57:20 amMedtronics has a certain manufacturing capacity and no justification for expanding. In fact, when this debacle is over and hospitals are flooded with ventilators they don't need, Medtronic's market will be even smaller (potentially zero) for years to come. Expanding capacity is foolish. Maybe they can work more shifts but capital investment on additional equipment would be a money loser.So, to avoid being criticized for not creating a dubious expansion plan, they simply open up the design. Their market is dead anyway so why not? They will create a newer model (and may already have some that are superior to the one they released) if and when the market recovers. For now, they need to batten down the hatches if the company is to survive.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 07, 2020, 01:11:11 pm
content: Quote from: rstofer on April 06, 2020, 06:01:41 pmWhen you think about it, this has an enormous marketing potential, especially if the outcome is positive and significant (which it has the ability to be). I can easily envisage future purchasers of their equipment getting a positive "vibe" when they see the Medtronics name. Such a presence in a market will be worth sales.

author: MasterBuilder
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2020, 02:23:35 pm
content: The 4th set of files are available:https://www.medtronic.com/content/dam/medtronic-com/global/Corporate/covid19/downloads/ventilator-files/pb560-vent-files-4.zip

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 08, 2020, 09:09:57 am
content: Quote from: Brumby on April 07, 2020, 01:11:11 pmOf course, and they knew it. They have had some bad publicity lately as I pointed out in my video.So release files locked up with a license that prevents competition from using any of it in the medium to long term. They can't lose.Smart ploy actually.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 08, 2020, 09:11:34 am
content: Quote from: MasterBuilder on April 07, 2020, 02:23:35 pmLooks like all the BOM's and drawings.

author: MasterBuilder
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2020, 12:01:53 pm
content: Now the 5th set is up:https://www.medtronic.com/content/dam/medtronic-com/global/Corporate/covid19/downloads/ventilator-files/pb560-vent-exes.zipCompiled Software Files it says.