The "Decline of Hobby Electronics", interesting video/documentary - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2016, 04:10:55 pm
content: Also staring someone you might recognize, from Australia ...

author: retrolefty
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2016, 09:47:27 pm
content: Decline my foot, it's never been a better time to be an electronics hobbyist.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2016, 09:58:44 pm
content: Quote from: retrolefty on October 21, 2016, 09:47:27 pmWell the amazing range of super cheap electronics kits/components and stuff like that on ebay and other places, would have made my eyes pop out, and steam come out of both my ears. If I had, had access to even some, of today's ebay's massive range of pocket money priced items.When I was a lot younger and had Electronics as a hobby.Even if many of them are fake/clones/junk/faulty/cons and other problematic issues.Even the easy access to online freely downloadable datasheets, would have been quite a revelation, decades ago.But on the other hand, there are so many distractions and other timesinks, for kids these days. I'm not sure how much of a negative effect that would have had, if I had been born in very recent times.With Mobile phones, Internet, YouTube, TV, DVDs/Blurays, Video games, Facebook, Friends, and a number of other things. It must be hard these days, to sit down and carry out Electronics as a hobby, for younger people.

author: Assafl
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2016, 08:02:38 am
content: It is an altogether different hobby today.In the past it was about building commercial equivalent products for less (or for similar price - like Hearhkits). All that is left from that are loudspeakers and perhaps power amplifiers (that are cheaper to build than buy).Today it is about customization. Customizing an art installation. Customizing an espresso machine. Customizing lighting. Most are used as timers and controllers of sorts.What is surprising is how decreasing costs killed the repair industry. Although I believe it is also shoddy workmanship by many repair shops that killed their industry.

author: jonovid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2016, 08:17:49 am
content: QuoteQuotei do more now, then i did back in the 90s when you only had Dick smith & Tandy to pick from.

author: AntiProtonBoy
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2016, 08:22:24 am
content: Quote from: retrolefty on October 21, 2016, 09:47:27 pmAbsolutely. The ease of access to just about any component you want these days is mind blowing. As much as appreciated Dick Smith back in the 90s, I really wouldn't want to go back to limited choices at over the top prices. What I do want to see, however, is more electronics surplus and junk shops where you can pick up really weird and wonderful things.

author: jonovid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2016, 09:25:30 am
content: QuoteAsian surplus electronics parts sell on aliexpress if you know the name or number & can find a datasheet / schematics winner winner chicken dinner.

author: chris_leyson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2016, 09:54:15 am
content: The construction methods and techniques from 50 years ago have all but gone and perhaps you could say that is what has declined, but as a hobby electronics hasn't declined it's probably got more followers than it did 50 years ago.

author: CraigHB
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2016, 04:03:50 pm
content: Started with electronics as a hobby in the 70's at a young age. I went on to get an EE degree, but I still do electronics projects as a hobby. The difference now is the stuff you can do, how you do it, and the availability of parts. I don't know if people are losing or gaining interest with electronics as a hobby, but it's wide open now compared to when I started. Parts are so cheap and widely available and information so readily available it's almost unlimited what you can do. In the early days it was about what I could afford, what parts I could get from the local electronics shop, and what information I had available. I think now is the best time ever to be into electronics as a hobby.

author: JoeN
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2016, 10:17:22 pm
content: They seem to define decline as the decline of the traditional monthly flyer advertising a thousand different products all from one place (Radio Shack, Fry's, Jameco, etc. in the USA, Dick Smith in Australia, etc.). Those suppliers have declined. Now it is much more widely distributed - the shops are smaller and more boutique (Adafruit, Sparkfun, Polulu, etc.), or really tiny suppliers on eBay, but the number of products available today is larger in aggregate, and cheaper as well. Seems to me as many people are into electronics now as ever, probably more. I disagree with the video, if indeed it is saying there is a decline in hobby electronics. Watching the video it seems to me that the participants mostly agree that "hobby electronics is changing" rather than declining, but the electronics industry itself in Australia is declining. That is a different subject and it seems to me that may be true. Australia has given up its independence in manufacturing in a number of industries, not only electronics, relying on imports while encouraging higher value added industries domestically (plus, the primary sector stuff which Australia has been gifted by chance to be exceptional at in several ways).

author: calexanian
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2016, 12:13:08 am
content: +1 for it has not declined, only changed. Why would somebody coming up nowadays play with piles of wire wrapped TTL chips when a little micro on a board from ebay for all of a few dollars delivered will do the same thing and in a easy to handle high level programming language? Additionally the commodity nature of electronics kits, dev boards, and modules allows for low cost of entry without the need for specialized tools. for a few hundred bucks on ebay you can get yourself set up with everything you need to play around with high level digital electronics. Something completely unheard of just 20 years ago.To get more people into it now in my opinion is better learning tools and more seamless integration. Bridge the gab between arduino and lego type platforms to true firmware.

author: @rt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2016, 04:39:38 am
content: That depends if you want to call plugging one small PCB into a larger PCB electronics.

author: TheNewLab
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2016, 06:31:04 am
content: I watched that YT awhile back. I believe it is from "State of Electronics" Channel...Fun to see a younger Dave.hobby Electronics in decline? ARE YOU KIDDING? THEY MUST BE KIDDING. The video appeared to be about the decline from a retail, and G-20 nation base product manufacturers. In their case they are right. But a hobby in decline? Just the opposite. It is growing. A wave of young enthusiasts have appeared, older professionals finding time to get back in and explore, both old and new.I am a frickin' commercial photographer, and i got the bug! Just to find something relaxing and a nice distraction. And I blame it all on Dave and MJ Lorton on all the equipment, parts and development modules I have accumulated. (Ha Ha!)My little sister calls me the "regressing to a nerd" and a "neo nerd" This hobby has surpassed nerdishness.. In that video, note how "our Dave" was the only one optimistic about the future of hobby electronics.Let's ask Dave: "hey, when will you be offering tours of your new diggs?" My wife is considring for us to fly out to New Zealand for an "Art Deco" event. your town is just a hop, skip! detour!

author: jonovid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2016, 06:32:10 am
content: Quotenot all electronics is worth the effort. take the switched-mode supply. I will probably never attempt to build another one from scratch. like I attempted in the 90s to build a 100W RMS car audio power amplifier using two dick smith power amplifier pcb kits that needed 40V+ -0- 40V-so my own DIY DC to DC switched-mode power supply. using a ferrite transformer and a power flip flop circuit. try as I may I could not get it to oscillate outside the audio range 20 - 20 000 Hz or run under full load.today 100+ W audio power amplifiers are cheap & pre-built. as with most other electronics, why mess with a tricky RF or Power switched-mode circuit, when you can use a pre-built electronics module. it also helps if you own an oscilloscope, that i did not have one at the time. the Hobby has not declined just the old bricks & mortar retail stores.

author: CraigHB
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2016, 07:04:01 am
content: Most of the stuff you build can be purchased already built and ready to use. It's always going to be cheaper than building something yourself. Gone are the Heathkit days where you could actually save money building your own equipment. It's not about any kind of savings, it's about building something to your own specifications and the personal reward of success. I've had a few failures, DC-DC converters have given me some grief. I don't think you can ever avoid failure completely. Electronics now is not the analog stuff of years past. It's mostly about doing things digitally. You have to be able to code your controllers. If someone really hates coding then electronics is not going to be a good hobby choice.

author: hamster_nz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2016, 07:48:10 am
content: I think hobby electronics is all but dead.In the early/mid 80s computing displaced a lot of hobby electronics. Electronics mags started to cover computing topics, displacing rhe old skills like RF.In the 90s the internet made a lot of shortwave/ham seem quaint - why listen to the BBC world service when you can read it on your phone? (I hope SDR can make it come back... but it won't)Analogue audio projects have all but disappeared... I can't recall the last time I plugged anything in by RCA leads! Now all all connects via HDMI, Optical Bluetooth or WiFI.So where there was a progression in skill with useful projects along the way there is now a huge skill gap between 'maker' boards-and-wires projects and real hobby electronic projects (where you need to design and analyse a circuit). The bridge to more complex projects is no longer there, and the gap is too big for many to jump.It is odd that hobby electonics has never been as cheep and available but at the same time so inaccessible to the newbie.

author: @rt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2016, 07:59:31 am
content: It's definitely more expensive to make something already available commerciallyIt's all downhill from here.I know one kid who practices what I call electronics.Even amateur radio now is more about deriving satisfaction from plugging two boxes together with a cable than making anything, with a few exceptions.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2016, 04:16:15 pm
content: Quote from: jonovid on October 24, 2016, 06:32:10 amBecause a lot of it isn't that tricky and you can do better than prebuilt stuff.Why do electronics at all? Just bolt stuff together off the shelf like lego..

author: jonovid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2016, 04:49:58 pm
content: QuoteWhats the largest number of RCA sockets you have seen on one 1990s home appliance?

author: Buriedcode
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2016, 11:56:42 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on October 24, 2016, 04:16:15 pmBecause the time/cost difference usually outweighs any loss of performance. I'll admit the 'modular' approach allows almost anyone to plug things together, follow instructions on how to download sketches onto an Arduino and have something that 'does something' - but these days the bar is set higher. I love the fact I can buy very cheap modules that may not function as well as a purely custom design, but cost significantly less than the parts and come prebuilt because it means I can concentrate on the stuff I *don't* understand very well.I regularly liked to do (almost) everything from scratch, including home etched double sided PCBs, my own programmers, cables, audio amps/guitar pedals etc... Sure sometimes it worked out 'better' but that's a lot of time and effort (and money) that could have been better spent on added functionality, reliability or lower power. There will always be the 'because its a challenge' reason for things like, an all-7400 series clock, or designing a custom FPGA dev board but in terms of building/making/designing something for a need, or a contract, cheap eastern electronic 'modules' allow for more complicated and occasionally impressive projects.There was another thread about this a couple of months ago, with the same arguments made. Some very cynical, claiming that 'maker kids' don't' really know anything about electronics, whilst others, like myself, had to restate the idea that its the best hobbyists have ever had it. It comes down to what you would consider 'hobby electronics' to be.Is it taking things apart and modifying then with what you have to hand?Designing RF stuff from scratch, doing all the maths by hand?Making a few LED's blink and them hot-gluing it into a hammond box?Soldering a kit together?Repairing old electronics for re-purposing?Designing, populating a 8-layer board with transmission lines for GHz+ computing?All of those things can fall under the umbrella term 'hobby electronics'. I think the different opinions here really stem from where peoples interests lie and the idea that those who design microwave amps probably dont' like to be put i the same category as say, someone who programmed an RGB LED to change colours. But they are both 'electronics'.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 25, 2016, 03:01:51 am
content: As can be seen from comments, one fundamental difficulty of assessing thestateof 'Hobby Electronics' is the definition.Electronics is a function of a technological society - and that technology is evolving ... quite dramatically. A number of traditionally individual disciplines are stretching their capabilities and together with new ideas for using technology, we are experiencing crossover to ever increasing degrees.As an example, when I first got into 'Electronics' at the hobby level, the closest thing I could come to a computer was to build a few a few flip-flops and make myself a binary counter. A binary adder was a whole level up from that. Sourcing the parts was a real pain until Dick Smith opened up, but even then cost was a consideration. But now .... I can get an Arduino Nano compatible board delivered to my letterbox for under $2. Back then, 'programming' a circuit consisted of flipping a few switches or changing jumpers. Now, it's not just a different ball game, it is a whole new universe.One could get caught up with just trying to detail the areas of impact from computing development alone. I would consider it the single most pervasive technology of all. Radio station programming and broadcast. Audio mixing and production. Video editing and publishing. What was involved in just these disciplines when I started into electronics is vastly different to what can be done now - ALL of which I can perform while sitting at this very computer. The same one I am presently using to discuss the subject ... with a global community.The definition used for "Hobby Electronics" is now the key for answering the question.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2016, 04:12:17 am
content: Let's see. The electronics hobby died when:a. You couldn't buy some magnet wire, fahnstock clips, a pair of headphones and a piece of galena and make your own radio. On a piece of wood you stole from the kitchen (the breadboard). And later rolled your own capacitors with cigarette foils and made your own resistors with a pencil on paper.b. When you couldn't take apart a couple of old radios to get the tube sockets and resistors and capacitors to make your own SW receiver.c. When kits lost their cost/or performance advantage over assembled gear.d. When the mail order surplus electronics stores in New York (was it 44th st?) went out of businesse. When you could buy a better personal computer than you could build for yourself.f. When all of the really neat electronics required VHDL and mask fees that are out of reach of the hobbyist.g. When the vitality went out of the print electronics magazine business.h. .....People from all eras have a love affair with the form of electronics that captured their fancy, and mourn its passing. We electronics geeks have always been a tiny minority. Only the very luckiest of us had nearby mentors and guides. We remain thin on the ground. So it is not surprising that few of us find our successors hanging around.

author: Legionary
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2016, 04:35:31 am
content: I have to agree with most of the preceding posts: the hobby is not in decline but on the rise.We can get pcb's manufactured to spec for a few dollars and a week's worth of patience.The Internet makes finding information or a specific part and how to use it easier than ever.Online suppliers offer significantly more selection and much better prices even after shipping than the "local" store; supposing you were lucky enough to have one within a reasonable distance in the first place.The advent of pre-assembled, module-based, micro-controller boards has significantly decreased the cost of entry to the field in terms of knowledge and skill.All of these things allow a much greater proportion of the populace to partake of the hobby. Sure some of them will never graduate beyond the arduino and shield concept, but some of them will recognizethe limitations of those platforms and get into the more serious aspects of the field, but for many "legos" are enough for them. The important part is that they are having fun, and at the end of the day, ahobby is an activity performed for fun. So if they are having fun with electronics, then they are electronics hobbyists in my book.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2016, 05:17:25 am
content: Some very good comments in this thread.Overall, Electronics as a hobby is alive and kicking, but (as many others have said in this thread), it haschangeda lot, in the last few decades (and longer).But many of the things, which I really, really enjoyed, when I was much, much younger, with my electronics hobby (then), have (largely) disappeared these days.A few decades ago, there were many electronics shops around the UK (and the rest of the world). There were all sorts of components and electronic things, one could buy. Some would have a wide assortment of semi-scrap pcb's and stuff. Anything from old computer boards, faulty electronic organ boards, and all sorts of other goodies.Those goodies might change, almost weekly, so it was great fun, traveling to the electronic shops, and seeing what they had in stock.Overall, the prices were quite reasonable as well (in my opinion).A typical electronics project, would cost about £5 to £10 in raw parts and bits and pieces to make. So maybe a couple of weeks pocket money, or some earnings, if you were older.The electronics magazines then, were really enjoyable, and great for getting circuits (and ideas), for projects to build. They would teach a lot of electronics, from numerous articles inside the magazine. The adverts in it, were really useful for getting hard to get parts, as well.There were also bargain component packs, sold by some mail order companies, and Tandy (the UK's version of Radio Shack), had a number of component packs as well.(It was a very long time ago, so I may misremember the prices) For about £2, you would get a large packet of transistors, or Leds, or Resistors, or Capacitors etc etc.They were great for getting lots of components, for not too much money.In that era, friends and family would know you are into electronics. So they would sometimes give you their old electronics kits, bust radios/calculators, etc etc.These were great for opening them up, which helps learn more about electronics, and its manufacture. They can also be disassembled to get more bits to play with.In some places, you could meet up with other electronics hobbyists. This was useful, for learning more about electronics, and also for gaining insights to what to buy for the hobby etc.When I was older (I'm not sure how old I was, when they first opened), there were places like Stuart of Reading, who had a very wide range of used test equipment, power supplies and things like that. I would spend ages, eyeing up these huge tektronix oscilloscopes, which (if I remember correctly), were located, right by the front door of the shop, on the wall. They were the really big/heavy valve (tube) ones. Luckily I resisted any urge to buy them.Some things, have not changed that much. These days you can buy lots of things on (e.g. ebay), from China, with various electronic components and/or assemblies, for low prices.A few decades ago, you could do a similar thing. By using the electronic magazines adverts, including the classified adverts at the back. There were various components and/or assemblies (much like what you can get today, but less of a range, and the prices were more expensive. Butnotthat expensive. I.e. Still perfectly affordable).Obviously modern things, like microcontrollers, were not usually available from such sources. Many things had yet to be invented/available.I prefer through hole (as regards hobby electronics and breadboarding). But surface mount for serious hobbyists, is perfectly viable. You just need to sort out the PCB's, and maybe get some surface mount equipment, such as Microscopes/magnifiers/hot-air-stuff/very-fine-soldering-tips etc etc. Peoples equipment choice can vary.There is much more information available these days, such as explanatory youtube videos, PDF datasheets, and tons of internet sites etc etc. This is extremely useful, for any subject areas within electronics, which you don't know that much about, but want to.There are many forums, where you can get help with electronics as well. (The point about the forums, is that a few decades ago, you couldnotdo that. So if you were stuck, it was tough luck, much of the time, unless you can solve it yourself).

author: Dago
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2016, 05:46:00 am
content: Having not lived (at least when old enough) during the supposed "golden age" of electronics in seventies or eighties or whatever I definitely think that we are living the hay day of hobby electronics right now. I do not know in terms of amount of hobbyists (though I have a feeling that is also higher, just different kind of hobbyists) but at least in terms of tools and information of what is available and what is possible to do. Like other people have said even a few years back you could not get custom made PCBs from China for the price of a pizza or a very wide array of different kinds of ICs which alone fullfill some function that would have been completely or nigh impossible to do with discretes. Information and simulators and software is widely available for free etc.The hobby has definitely changed and the importance of analog and discrete circuits has definitely been (slightly) reduced but change is the only steady state of the universe...I personally don't consider stuff like SMD to be any kind of problem or hindrance, I've made very few projects in my lifetime with through hole components. Sure if you try to do projects in a way you did them in the 80s and try to deadbug surface mount components to a breadboard sure it is more tedious than with through holes... Or then you just accept change and order a (almost free) PCB for the project, just have to change your ways to suit new technology. In my experience if you have ~200$ worth of tools you can use almost any IC you can purchase anywhere with very few exceptions (some BGAs and CSPs). Even those exceptions you can solder with no additional tools, just need to accept a higher possibility of failure and need for a bit more expensive PCBs

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2016, 08:03:36 pm
content: I used to have resistance to SMDs for home/hobby use. But after making the first few SMD boards I would never go back to all of the drilling required for through hole. Unless I get a wild hair and do a couple of cordwood packaged modules for some application requiring extreme mechanical robustness.

author: julian1
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2016, 08:33:15 pm
content: I'm trying to move to smt, and making my own boards for the faster turn-around time.Using two-layer to ease the routing, with signals on top and +/- rails and 0/gnd fills on the bottom. But it means I still need to do a fair bit of drilling for manual vias to route power up to IC pins/decoupling caps. Still not sure what the optimum approach is here.I feel these sorts of construction approaches may be more complicated than in the golden age of through-hole. On the other hand the internet changed everything in terms of access to information, parts, markets and community.

author: Buriedcode
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 26, 2016, 01:57:21 am
content: Quote from: julian1 on October 25, 2016, 08:33:15 pmDon't forget, even with DIY boards you can get a trace under an 0805, or two under a 1206. Under-chip vias are probably out, although I've had limited success using those tiny copper 'rivets'. I've pretty much given up on DIY boards because of the hassle, but if you want a list of 'tips' for SMD layouts, hit me up. Theres a wealth of info on the web already but you know.. specific problems and specifics answers etc..I forgot how much longer TH boards are to populate after doing SMD for so long. Sure theres usually some TH components, headers connectors etc.. but once you start having lots of passives it really can take a while compared to placing 0603/0805's on solder pasted boards.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 26, 2016, 04:36:14 am
content: If you hate drilling holes, and don't like SMD, go back to soldering leaded components to solder lugs on terminal strips. Works with transistors, but gets a little funky with DIPs and is just plain crazy with TQFPs.Up through DIPs you can also use the Bob Pease technique of 3D cage assembly on a copper substrate. No through holes, but a little slicing on the copper substrate.

author: julian1
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 26, 2016, 06:08:01 am
content: Quote from: CatalinaWOW on October 26, 2016, 04:36:14 amI like SMD - a lot. If there's a package choice - eg. dips versus soic, then I use SMD and mini breakout boards for breadboarding. I have no problem with hand, hotair, or hotplate soldering smt components.I just haven't worked out how to route multiple power planes on a two-layer board for SMT components without needing vias - which when hand etching means drilling. I can reduce the via count by using more clever routing - but then the board starts to diverge significantly from the schematic - which makes it harder to test/debug/add bodges which is useful at a prototype stage. Yes I route under ICs, resistors, and add 0R jumpers when needed.Commercial fabrication, rather than hand-etching would solve that by electroplating the vias. But the turnaround time sucks.

author: R005T3r
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 27, 2016, 02:12:07 pm
content: SMD are easy to work with. You need to have the right tools for that. I still use trought hole components, and parts like ultracaps are impossible to find on SMD components.

author: CraigHB
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 27, 2016, 02:45:19 pm
content: Anyone who's been into electronics for a while has had to make the transition from TH to SMD. I was a bit dismayed by SMD at first, but like others have said it's actually better even for hand soldering. There are way fewer holes to drill with SMD, but I mostly send my PCBs out for fab so I don't drill holes much anyway. Though simple PCBs I still make myself like those for placing component modules on breadboards.One of the really big improvements in hobby electronics is the ability to get PCBs made cheaply. When I first started getting PCBs fabbed a couple decades ago the cost was just about prohibitive. Now those same boards cost like a tenth as much, maybe even a twentieth. The turn-around time always calls for some patience, but I haven't found it to be a huge problem. The Chinese fabs take about two weeks, but I've had two layer boards from Osh-Park show up as fast as a week. They're based just one state over from me which speeds up shipping quite a bit compared to overseas.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 27, 2016, 03:01:42 pm
content: Quote from: @rt on October 24, 2016, 04:39:38 amI do!I often buy 'stamp' versions of various boards (like the mbed) and plug them into a custom PCB to complete the project. I have one gadget where all I added was the Ethernet jack on the motherboard but it filled my requirements perfectly. Take SPI at about 11 MHz, accumulate, calculate, format and send strings to an networked printer.The project wasn't the mbed and it certainly wasn't my 'motherboard'. It was the code to convert old fashioned step-by-step plotter commands to HPGL sentences and send them out.Electronics HAS changed and it is a vastly larger sandbox than it was in the '50s. In terms of dollars, I would bet it's MUCH larger. But it isn't 'build amateur radio stuff with bits and pieces'. That boat has sailed. Better equipment is readily available. Today it is more likely to be about code.There's a reason that many colleges and universities lump the computer science department into the electrical engineering department. When I graduated from grad school, the dean asked me if I wanted my MS in EE or CS and what color robe I wanted to wear. Grad school was kind of free-form and I took about as many CS courses and EE.Today, for me, it is more about code than wires. I can't remember the last time I used my cut-strip-wrap gun and I wouldn't bet on ever using it again. Anything I could wire-wrap, I can build with an FPGA. Code versus wires...

author: Canis Dirus Leidy
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 28, 2016, 12:11:17 am
content: Quote from: julian1 on October 26, 2016, 06:08:01 amWell, there isDIY solution for galvanic metallization(in Russian), but it require access to analytical grade reagents (copper sulfate and calcium hypophosphite) plus good ventilation (unless you want to breathe ammonia).

author: julian1
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 28, 2016, 02:01:05 am
content: Quote from: Canis Dirus Leidy on October 28, 2016, 12:11:17 amPrevit!. That's impressive. Russians kick ass with their DIY skills and problem solving ingenuity.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 28, 2016, 10:28:59 am
content: Quote from: rstofer on October 27, 2016, 03:01:42 pmThat's a very good way to look at it.

author: CraigHB
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 28, 2016, 02:40:19 pm
content: Quote from: zapta on October 28, 2016, 10:28:59 amThat's the big change in hobby electronics from several decades ago to now. Back then it was about analog stuff and discrete components. Now it's more about controllers and coding. That's fine by me. I don't have a particular issue with coding and most of my projects are based in practicality, in other words I usually do a project because I have a need for some device to do this or that. Modern electronics provide a much wider range for what devices can do and it's a lot easier to do things in software than hardware.

author: setq
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 28, 2016, 03:36:30 pm
content: My thoughts on the matter...As a hobby, I still do pretty much everything entirely through hole, discrete and analogue. My day job is software so I want something diametrically opposed to this mindset as possible. I'll even throw hours on building something I already have a superior version of (I built a DMM a couple of years back and am now working on an oscilloscope).I can write C/assembly for an AVR or ARM core, I can quite happily throw together SOICs/SOT-23's and 0805's til the cows come home, and assemble things from Linear Tech datasheets but it doesn't have the mental labour and gymnastics required to provide any satisfaction to me, and that's what I find fun.Just this afternoon, whilst waiting for a massive software build to run, I've been scribbling out designs for a simple fixed frequency signal source I need to use with my main function generator to measure CMRR on a discrete differential amp (CA3096 discrete, not individual transistors) I have designed. It has 6 BJTs, about 20 resistors and about 6 capacitors and the design spec is a constant 2v p-p amplitude and a constant 50 ohm source impedance at 1KHz that runs off a 12v supply. It's a twin-T oscillator, a buffer, voltage gain stage, another buffer and then a push-pull amplifier. I'm going to build it and see if it works in a few minutes and I can't wait to get my hands on it.All this stuff is marvelous fun which is why I do it. Doesn't matter about the method, obsolescence or if software can do a better job quicker unless there is a pay cheque at stake.I haven't actually made a PCB for about a year either. Most of these designs end up staying dead bug or disposed of once I've got them working.Incidentally, I haven't found a case where SMD was better to put something non-commercial together yet. Time is limited for these things and the TH components provide immediacy, convenience and economy. Secondarily, I'll regularly use completely obsolete parts I've bought in large batches cheap from ebay. I've got a ton of axial BC electrolytics and metal can transistors that build something that looks 70's cool which is also fun.

author: Seekonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 28, 2016, 06:12:53 pm
content: Sure glad I had my fun when I did. I'm doing more complex things now, but it is all with pre-made assemblies. More concerned now with just accomplishing a task and not the fun of discovery. Eyesight is going and even working with the big stuff is a chore. Wouldn't even think about doing surface mount stuff. Even with simple stuff that would be about 15 discrete parts I prefer to just use a NANO and write some software. No more twiddling pots for me. I think it is a steep learning cure for people starting out now in electronics.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 28, 2016, 06:16:57 pm
content: I think I have a different viewpoint on through-hole vs SMD.First of all, I'm not going to build my own PCBs. I did that back in the early '70s and I'm not going to do it again.Second, home built boards using through hole components require soldering on both sides because there is no practical way to plate the holes (well, maybe there is...). Vias are similarly problematic; little pieces of wire through the hole, soldered on both sides. And that assumes that the pads line up!I built up a reflow oven from a Black & Decker Infra Wave toaster oven and it works great. Instead of soldering one component at a time, I can solder 100 components in one cycle.My boards are denser, the traces are better defined and they tend to work much better than anything I could bash together. What about 4 layer boards? Anybody DIYing those? On small boards, a hotplate does a great job. Place the board, turn the hot plate on high, wait for the solder paste to flow and then pull the board. Set it aside and turn off the hotplate. It simply doesn't get any easier than this.I have not developed the technique for reflow soldering both sides. If I put my decoupling capacitors on the back, I will have to solder them by hand.My favorite toy these days is an analog computer I built from plans on the Internet. No code involved! Just op amps, resistors, capacitors, diodes and an analog multiplier. It's amazing! Differential equations that were a PITA in school are easily solved in hardware.So, what do I do next? I'm working at building up a library of functions to simulate an analog computer - in FORTRAN. I miss the very early '70s...

author: rrinker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 28, 2016, 07:29:59 pm
content: I always liked FORTRAN. It was the third language I learned - TRS-80 Level 1 BASIC was the first, then I got my own computer and learned 1802 machine code, programmed that computer directly with a hex keypad. Then in high school I took the computer science class which was FORTRAN - on Apple II's, first year of it, previous years everyone had to do their programs on punch cards which were then sent off to run on the district's mainframe. First year of college, all engineering students had to take a course which was FORTRAN programming which was super easy for me since I already knew the basics of the language. And probably the first programs I wrote for an actual job were FORTRAN, on a PDP-11 which drove a coordinate measuring machine. It's neat an orderly, as engineering should be

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 28, 2016, 08:07:39 pm
content: Later incanations (later than IV) of FORTRAN have added some really nice features. The IF - THEN - ELSE IF - ELSE - END IF has cleaned up the 3 way arithmetic IF although it can still be used. The DO ... CONTINUE has been similarly cleaned up. Variable declaration is much more elegant. All in, I really like the newer versions. The language now has objects but I have less than zero interest at the moment. I'm just using it to create programs demonstrating problems in my grandson's Pre-Calc course.The new version just looks good.gfortran and Eclipse Neon plus the FORTRAN plug-in. Fantastic package! Caveat: Some portion of cygwin64 is required - mostly just the build tools and the gcc package.

author: setq
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 28, 2016, 09:02:55 pm
content: Quote from: rstofer on October 28, 2016, 06:16:57 pmThat stuff is fun. I built a temperature compensated log amp a few weeks back with an LF356 and a CA3096 and it worked nicely.I got bored before I built two and moved onto other things.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 28, 2016, 11:29:18 pm
content: Quote from: rrinker on October 28, 2016, 07:29:59 pmFORTRAN remains the best scientific and engineering calculation language. The only one I know that has a native complex data type. And yes, I know that in C++ and Ada you can define a complex type and overlay the operators. That is better than nothing, but since it isn't standardized in the language there will always be portability issues.There is nothing I hate worse than puzzling out some expression like ATAN(REALPART(CDIV(COMPLEX(0,F),CADD(COMPLEX(1,0),COMPLEX(0,TAU*F))),IMAGPART(CDIV(COMPLEX(0,F),CADD(COMPLEX(1,0),COMPLEX(0,TAU*F))) or something similar when people try to do simple engineering math in the popular languages like C, Basic, Java or the like.

author: bigsky
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 28, 2016, 11:55:59 pm
content: There are a couple of things resulting from the internet that weren't mentioned on this video.First is the role of ebay in providing a market for used test gear. You want a PSU, a DMM, a sig gen, or a scope, the chances are you can find something on ebay for very little money. This has only happened in the last 20 years, and it's a huge benefit to hobbyists.Second is the online world. Traditional electronics magazines have declined, but there are now all manner of web sites giving info on electronics. That's the replacement of one form of media with another. But there's also something new, and that's websites like this one which create global communities. In previous years, hobbyists didn't have the chance to interact with each other, let alone professionals. If you had a problem you couldn't solve, you were basically stuck unless you knew someone who could help. But now, post a question and the chances are you'll get several responses within hours.So I feel reasonably positive about the state of hobby electronics, especially given the recent growth of the maker movement. Anything that gets people experimenting and building things is good - it leads to creativity and innovation.A related question, of great interest, is what percentage of people who work in the EE industry started off as hobbyists. When I was at uni, I don't think that many people in my year were hobbyists, but my experience may not be typical. And, of course, doing a degree isn't the only route to an EE career.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 29, 2016, 12:35:20 am
content: Quote from: CatalinaWOW on October 28, 2016, 11:29:18 pmIs it still being taught in universities?

author: rrinker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 29, 2016, 01:13:05 am
content: I just checked the current catalog from my school and the FORTRAN and numerical methods requirement for all engineering students has been replace by something about communications in the first semester and one focused on MATLAB for the second semester.But also keep in mind that one of the classes I had to take was in 808 assembly, and we did this by writing the programs on the CDC Cyber 730 and then downloading to an S100 CP/M system with 8" floppies. 2 years later when I was a senior I helped some others with this course, only now they had an 8080 emulator than ran on a DOS PC and their FIRST program was as complex as our FINAL program.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 29, 2016, 03:26:11 am
content: Quote from: rrinker on October 29, 2016, 01:13:05 amNot surprising. In the early days, actually getting code onto the target machine and running was as big a part of the process as writing the code. As systems mature, I/O processes become less onerous, less effort is needed in the 'load and go' stages and more sophistication is expected in the coding. The parallel to electronics is pretty much identical.