Allegro out of business? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: blueskull
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 21, 2017, 07:32:35 am
content: I just found this today, and I seriously think Allegro and other so called high end PCB tools are being challenged by Altium, a so called mid-range PCB tool. Yes, they still have advantages such as built-in optional SI/EMI tools and MCM/LTCC design capability, but for consumer FR4-based designs, it seems the gap between AD and those high end tools are diminishing.http://www.altium.com/workshops/?utm_source=ownedmedia&utm_medium=stickybuttonad18overview&utm_campaign=VirtualWorkshop#Routing-with-Activeroute%C2%AE

author: Fire Doger
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2017, 12:20:04 pm
content: They are challenged, if not yet definitely in near future (if Altium doesn't shoot their foot like FPGA crap again)Low range are also being challenged by CS.I like that, it means that other competitors must improve their programs to stay in business.

author: Gibson486
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 21, 2017, 05:13:16 pm
content: The only places I know that do not use Altium are military places and places that have very seasoned senior guys. People say Altium cost a lot, but when you see how much the competition costs, it is not that much especially when you consider that most places do not pay what the MSRP is. The only other viable solution are the cheaper stuff, which is meh if you ar every serious about rolling out to a team and then there is KiCad, which is actually pretty dam good for a free package.

author: olkipukki
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2017, 03:57:44 pm
content: Quote from: blueskull on December 21, 2017, 07:32:35 amHope that Autodesk will realise how sh***y is EAGLE, and improve to "Inventor vs SolidWorks" level,so we will have a bit alternative in case if Altium keep "milking" customers by increasing subscription cost...

author: DerekG
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2017, 12:12:12 am
content: Quote from: olkipukki on December 22, 2017, 03:57:44 pmOr perhaps move across to DipTrace like I did. I no longer use Altium apart from updating some legacy boards.The latest version of DipTrace can even import Altium schematics & pcbs.I've never looked back.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2017, 03:02:22 am
content: What do you mean by "Allegro out of business"? Allegro is a Cadence product, and Cadence isn't out of business. Cadence still seem to be offering Allegro, although I know some big organisations which have migrated from it to Altium.

author: rfbroadband
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 16, 2018, 04:26:24 pm
content: Allegro is a powerful tool, but I think in the long run they will lose more market share because of their pricing structure. You can get started with just a $1000 or so but many features are disabled. The idea is to get the user hooked and then have him pay for software options to get some of the disabled features enabled. The pricing options for some of these 'advanced' features are completely insane (e.g.30,000$ per option).I personally can't judge to what extend Altium is playing the same game and tries to get people to buy more and more software options as you become used to the tool.Attached is a nice overview of Allegro features and what kind of software option you will need to access them. I would be interested to know how many of the 'advanced' features listed here are included per default in Altium.http://www.parallel-systems.co.uk/matrix/Usually such a detailed comparison takes weeks of work and the few companies who have done such an analysis keep the results confidential.Maybe an experienced Altium user wants to look at the PCB High Speed PCB options listed in the link above ? I think the US price is around 25,000$ (yes just for this one !option).I am surprised that Altium has not created a feature comparison matrix and put a check mark next to every feature that competitors charge 10s of thousands of dollars for.....Anyway, if Altium fans could point out a few "Allegro Advanced" features that are included in the base version (thus no extra charge), that would be very interesting to see.

author: Warhawk
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2018, 10:06:30 pm
content: Quote from: DerekG on December 23, 2017, 12:12:12 amDerek, I like you posts but every other one is about how you like DipTrace. Sometimes you sound like Jehovah's Witnesses or Apple fanboys. I worked with Diptrace and it is nowhere close to Altium although I wish it did. If it was, Diptrace would be way more successful. Especially the circuit diagram editor is far below today's standards. There are also problems and quirks reported years ago which have never been addressed. Instead, there is new length tuning feature which users of DipTrace don't need.Diptrace is OK for hobby but far away from being a professional mid-range EDA tool.How complex your boards are?

author: DerekG
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2018, 11:55:08 am
content: Quote from: Warhawk on March 16, 2018, 10:06:30 pmOK, I will tone down my posts. I just try to convey that this is one of the quickest pcb packages to learn & master.QuoteMost (many) people on this forum are generally looking for a cheaper option than Altium's US$8K+I am the first to admit that Altium gives you so many options, there is generally nothing you can't do with it. It does have however a large learning curve & it is quite (very) complex in some areas like scripting. Even moving from a schematic to the pcb can cause you to pull your hair out overcoming all mismatches that Altium keeps complaining about.QuoteI agree on both counts, however in these past 2 years the development team has worked hard in overcoming some of these long held complaints.QuoteI can do pretty much everything I want/need to do using DipTrace. The boards I design usually fall into the 50 to 200 component range. Most boards are designed using micro-controllers to reduce the parts count.To manufacture boards in a high cost country such as Australia, you must work hard at your designs to minimise the component count which in turn (nomally) reduces production costs. We own our own plastic moulds to keep our box/enclosure costs down & mainly V groove our boards so that we can handle large panels through the production phase economically. This means that most of our boards are rectangular in shape.So, no we are not into flex or hybrid boards & our designs generally run under 50MHz.One would envisage that if you were into PC motherboard design that you might well choose a package like Altium, not that I don't believe I couldn't do it in DipTrace.Anyway, your points are taken on-board & I will take more of a backseat on this forum.

author: ahbushnell
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 20, 2018, 09:14:38 pm
content: Quote from: Gibson486 on December 21, 2017, 05:13:16 pmWhy is it not used in military places?

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 20, 2018, 09:56:02 pm
content: Quote from: rfbroadband on March 16, 2018, 04:26:24 pmWell, Altium are a publicly listed company and they have to keep:a) The shareholders happyandb) Show continued growth in revenueAnd the only way to do a) is to do b)They have gone from 8 cents to $22 a share.Hint: If you own Altium shares, think about selling. That continued growth isn't sustainable at a PE Ratio of 68.There aren't many ways to grow your revenue, and many of them involve raising prices on your existing customers.Even if they converted all existing Allego users, it's probably not a huge number. This is why they have their new high end PCB tool they can sell to them and prices way higher than Altium Designer.

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 20, 2018, 10:18:41 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on March 20, 2018, 09:56:02 pmInternal competition, that always works out well.

author: DerekG
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 20, 2018, 11:27:52 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on March 20, 2018, 09:56:02 pmYes, I fully agree. 15 years ago there were quite a few players who were active in the PCB CAD arena. Many have fallen by the wayside and other smaller players have been snapped up by the larger players.This CAD design industry is now be considered "mature".There are a pile of free offerings now that have forced Altium to enter that space with low cost offerings such as Circuit Maker & Circuit Studio.Whilst many Eagle users are very unhappy about Autodesk's move to an annual subscription model, more users on the forums are saying it is working out well as a lot of effort is being made to bring the software up to the next level. I've even read that users believe it will compete well against Altium Designer if this development work continues in just a couple of years time ............. and at a couple of hundred dollars a year, Autodesk's subscription licence is less than Altium's annual maintenance fee.So, I full agree with Dave. Altium's share value has risen steeply these past 6 or so years, based on a heavy sell to investors & users alike, but I do not believe it is sustainable.Let's revisit the share price in another 12 months & 24 months time.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 20, 2018, 11:43:22 pm
content: Quote from: Marco on March 20, 2018, 10:18:41 pmIt’s called “market segmentation”, and yes, it seems to work well for most companies. Sell two products with different feature sets and price points to two groups of customers (with different needs and budgets).“Internal competition”, in my understanding, would imply selling two competing products to the same customer base, in the same price range. Makes less sense, and Altium does not do that to my knowledge.

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2018, 12:14:46 am
content: The feature sets however are not all that different, or they wouldn't be eating into Allegro's market share. Other than thermal, signal integrity and EMI simulations there is nothing which is warranted to be exclusive to a super premium price product, by holding features back from their mainstream product to allow more internal differentiation they'll open the door for competition.

author: Gibson486
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2018, 01:37:19 pm
content: Quote from: ahbushnell on March 20, 2018, 09:14:38 pmNot sure. If I had to guess it is because they started out not using Altium, so they just use what they have used for the past number of years. Military is one of those industries where change is not easy to come by (speaking from a tools point of view). In fact, if any place started using a tool, you better have a good reason to change it and it better be compatible with your older stuff.

author: ahbushnell
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2018, 02:16:17 pm
content: Quote from: Gibson486 on March 21, 2018, 01:37:19 pm

author: Karel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2018, 03:42:38 pm
content: Quote from: DerekG on March 20, 2018, 11:27:52 pmMy impression is a bit different. I believe thatmost hobbyists / makers have moved on to Kicadsome hobbyists and professionals keep on using Eagle V7 for the next yearsprofessionals / small companies moved (or are moving) to Altium Designernot too many people are happily using autodesk eagle V8

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 21, 2018, 10:28:27 pm
content: Quote from: blueskull on March 21, 2018, 10:07:47 pmAltium want everyone on subscription for obvious revenue reasons. But last I looked at the company investor data, less than half were on subscription.

author: Warhawk
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2018, 07:07:33 am
content: Keep in mind that engineers are seldom in charge of picking the right EDA software. Capital investments are usually decided one layer above where marketing materials play important role. At least to my experience. Second, Altium is somehow manageable by a single person. When you do a rapid prototyping and you need a symbol/footprint immediately, you can do it without causing much harm. I had to do a couple of footprints for allegro and it was extremely inconvenient.

author: Gibson486
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2018, 01:56:04 pm
content: Quote from: Karel on March 21, 2018, 03:42:38 pmI started a new job. They were using Eagle. I told them flat out: let me choose something else, or I will not work here. Anything is better than Eagle. I swear, they just updated the program boot up logo, but kept everything the same for the past decade.

author: snoopy
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2018, 01:04:50 pm
content: Quote from: DerekG on December 23, 2017, 12:12:12 amI used diptrace a while ago to view some cad files for an evaluation board. I don't think I could get used to the chunky graphics. Not a patch on Altium and the update speed was somewhat sluggish compared to Altium.cheers

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2018, 12:56:14 am
content: Quote from: Karel on March 21, 2018, 03:42:38 pmAltium is often choosen because many companies use it. Interestingly Orcad from Cadence is cheaper and offers similar features when it comes to schematics/PCB design. Also the minimum PC requirements for Orcad are way lower (Intel Core2 duo versus Intel Core i7 for Altium).

author: DerekG
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2018, 02:29:34 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on March 30, 2018, 12:56:14 amFully agree.QuoteAny idea on what the current cost is? I presume there is also an annual maintenance cost?

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2018, 03:01:32 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on March 30, 2018, 12:56:14 amThat makes Altium sound like the dominant player in the market. It isn't, although this forum often makes it seem so.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2018, 03:07:27 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on March 30, 2018, 03:01:32 pmhttps://www.slideshare.net/mjoass/altium-2016-presentation

author: DerekG
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2018, 03:40:58 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on March 30, 2018, 03:01:32 pmThe pie graph above needs to be examined carefully. It says "Revenue Share". I have not looked at the current cost of Cadence but both Zuken & Mentor Graphics are a LOT more expensive than Altium.If we take both Zuken & Mentor Graphics as being 2.5 times Altium's seat price (they are in reality more like three times the price of Altium), this would indicate that Altium is either first or second in the number of total users.Altium's growth in total seats has been quite phenomenal over the past 18 years, so (one would expect) that it will not be long until it does hold the most active seats in PCB design.

author: DerekG
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2018, 03:56:13 pm
content: Page 6 of Altium's presentation to shareholders shows the revenue growth for 2015-2016. This graph shows they are significantly outperforming their competitors. If this continues then Altium will certainly take the lead with the total number of seats (which would qualify them to claim to be the dominant player in this industry).To make it clear, I actually don't like Altium (the company) or their AD design package that much. But, they have risen from a very small player back in 1988 (the Protel days) to be one of the biggest.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2018, 03:57:29 pm
content: Quote from: DerekG on March 30, 2018, 03:40:58 pmYou also need to consider that the chart only shows the top 4 suppliers. Large numbers of board designers don't use any of these 4. 5 to 10 years ago, my team received significant numbers of CAD files from customers, who were hoping we could help them refine their designs. They were hardly ever in Altium format. I don't know how that would compare today.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2018, 04:10:29 pm
content: @DerekG -- sure, valid points. I just wanted to illustrate coppice's point that, contrary to what the discussions in this forum might sometimes make you believe, Altium is not "the only game in town" when it comes to professional PCB CAD.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2018, 10:00:26 pm
content: Quote from: DerekG on March 30, 2018, 02:29:34 amMaintenance costs are never mandatory. IMHO software should work out of the box and not depend on future updates. Anyway, with component management count on spending between 4k to 5k euro on a single seat for a one time buy (perpetual) license.

author: olkipukki
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2018, 09:04:25 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on March 21, 2018, 10:07:47 pmLast time I tried to negotiate 3 years subscription, but Altium is not interested to give any discounts, just pointed to "a price will be fixed for 3 years"...

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2018, 09:51:20 am
content: Quote from: DerekG on March 30, 2018, 03:40:58 pmI've started using OrCAD recently, because my new workplace had that. It has a very low entry point of 0, and you only rent the software, and it stops working as soon as you stop paying for it. It costs about the same as Altium subscription.For now, I see it as a very very powerful tool. I'm still at the beginning of the learning curve. I think the high end versions could do a lot more than Altium. For example it can repour on a layer instantly, or you can "easily" change the thermal connections for just one component.But it lacks 3D. Or the interactive routing in Altium is a bit better. Ask me in a few months, how they stack up.

author: DerekG
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2018, 11:12:10 am
content: Quote from: NANDBlog on April 02, 2018, 09:51:20 amExcellent. We look forward to an update in several months once you have come up to speed with Orcad.

author: asmi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 13, 2018, 11:47:55 pm
content: Quote from: NANDBlog on April 02, 2018, 09:51:20 amIt has 3D, and averygood one. One feature I particularly like is the fact that it's interactive - meaning you can move components in 3D view and it will automatically update layout. When combined with ability to load up the model for the enclosure this makes placing various connectors, dials, etc, much easier. This is a quite recent addition (and it's still ongoing project), so if you don't have it, you might want to download and install the latest update (SPB17.20.037 at this moment).Orcad is available on both "lease" and perpetual basis - you can see current priceshere. Currently Capture + PCB Professional suite is $5k + $1.8k per year for maintenance subscription. But their sales people seem willing to negotiate prices - they provided a great discount to me I as a hobbyist.

author: olkipukki
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 14, 2018, 08:51:03 am
content: Quote from: asmi on April 13, 2018, 11:47:55 pmDid you have a chance to use OrCAD Library Builder? Is it a separate license?I like their "Advanced PDF datasheet extraction" feature and wondering if it's works in most cases and not only as advertised on Cypress partshttp://www.orcad.com/resources/library/orcad-library-builder-fast-part-creation-demonstration

author: asmi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 14, 2018, 05:08:51 pm
content: Quote from: olkipukki on April 14, 2018, 08:51:03 amThese are all extra (at least at Professional license level) so I can't comment on them. As I said above, I'm a hobbyist so I don't have six-digit budgets to burn (if I would, I would buy a fully-optioned Allegro license first). Besides, I prefer making my own schematic symbols. As for footprints, I use PCB Library Expert Lite to generate standard ones (as a nice bonus it also generates 3D step models of packages), and for non-standard footprints I create them manually using built-in tools, and create/edit 3D models in Fusion 360 if manufacturer doesn't provide them, or if I don't like how they look.

author: olkipukki
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 15, 2018, 02:07:47 pm
content: Quote from: asmi on April 14, 2018, 05:08:51 pmIt seems that some OrCAD extras already available in standard Altium package.For example, "OrCAD Panel Editor" for panelization...Anyway, OrCAD has promotion now "OrCAD Capture & OrCAD PCB Editor (Powered by Allegro) 1yr license$620$299"I have Lite version installed locally (to open a read-only custom designs etc) - very limited and annoyed mostly time, might pull a trigger for 1y std proper license...

author: asmi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 15, 2018, 11:21:29 pm
content: Quote from: olkipukki on April 15, 2018, 02:07:47 pmI suggest you to request the trial version before jumping the ship and handing them money. I don't know which country you're from, as they usually have different offers in different countries, but over here in North America as part of their "trial" you get assigned a dedicated Field Applications Engineer who will help you get up to speed quickly. As part of the purchase package I was also given access to free e-learning course for Capture and PCB Editor, and these (along with FE) were very helpful.Also you can find a bunch of useful tips-n-tricks here:http://www.parallel-systems.co.uk/guides/Lastly, whatever license you choose, make sure you order USB HASP key (it was $100 here) so that your license won't be tied to your physical computer, and you can easily move your installation (or even have several installations, but of course you can only use one at a time) without involving support personnel. Rehosting the license is free as long as your maintenance license is active, but if you let it lapse and decide to rehost it after that, their support will charge you for that service.

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 16, 2018, 02:38:29 am
content: Quote from: DerekG on March 30, 2018, 02:29:34 amDepends on what package you go with. And yes, there are annual maintenance fees to keep it current and continued access to support after the first year.They're running a special onPCB Designer Standardright now for $299. It used to go for ~$2150 IIRC (MSRP is $620 if the $299 special wasn't available), so it's a decent offer. Seems they're making the real money on the maintenance fees as well as hope you'll add options as your needs grow.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 16, 2018, 09:04:57 am
content: Quote from: nanofrog on April 16, 2018, 02:38:29 amRight now, I think Allegro is not worth it, unless you are working in a big team, with at least one expert in it.Generating libraries and output files is a pain, and you need to work a lot onbasicthings that is set by default in other EDA software. The fact that you have 200 different layers is also bad, and you dont get a gerber viewer to check your output. My collegue describet it as an "empty box, that lets you do a lot of things, but you need to configure it yourself", and I have to agree with it. Placing just a via is difficult, something that should be simple. Making footprints also. The 3D is very basic compared to Altium. A lot of things are very cumbersome.Unless you want to learn how to route high end digital stuff, like GBit routers, Video cards or so, I dont think it is such a good software. It is made for companies, where separate people work on the schematic, library, layout and so on. For people, where 20 engines are working on the same project, and you need a RFM to get stapler. And if you want to be a layouter, a CID at a big firm, so be it, learn how to use it. Otherwise I would stick to Altium.

author: hammy
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 16, 2018, 03:02:53 pm
content: Quote from: NANDBlog on April 16, 2018, 09:04:57 amSetup -> User Preferences Editor -> Interactive 3D canvasYour knowledge about this software is limited. Robert Feranec "Fedevel Academy" created anew coursefor OrCAD/Allegro. I highly recommend it for everyone who is interested to improve his skills.Cheershammy

author: hammy
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 18, 2018, 08:25:38 pm
content: Quote from: NANDBlog on April 16, 2018, 09:04:57 amAdding a via has traditionally been done with a double-click of the LMB. Using the Space Bar can save you several thousand mouse clicks per year. The Space Bar is an easy key to click and hence best for adding vias.Code:funckey " " "pop bbdrill -cursor" (double quote – space – double quote)The document "Allegro_Tips_Tricks.pdf" is included in you orcad/allegro installation package or easy to find via google.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 18, 2018, 09:09:17 pm
content: Quote from: hammy on April 18, 2018, 08:25:38 pmYeah, but first you have to go to a different software, specify via for a layer stackup, save it, screw around with enviroment setting for the folders, import it to your pcb, do this for each and every type of via you want. In Altium you just change a layer while routing, and a via is there. With default values that are usually fine.Quote from: hammy on April 16, 2018, 03:02:53 pmI dont doubt that. After spending thousands of hours in one EDA software, it will take time to learn another one. But I'm seeing stuff, which I dont like and what is totally not intuitive. For example thermal reliefs. In altium, it is a properly, with pictures, explaining exacly what you are doing. Here, you need to edit Dyn_Thermal_Con_Type. This is something that is fine in a source code of some software, not the final product. And perhaps if I would spend the price of a compact executive sedan, then I would get all the functionality, and another million magic settings.

author: hammy
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 18, 2018, 11:18:11 pm
content: Quote from: NANDBlog on April 18, 2018, 09:09:17 pmSure, it's the same for me with AD. They are both total different. UI, style, usage. After several hundred hours you are used to it and it feels "intuitive". The way you think and plan adapts to the software. After this point every other software feels awkward.

author: robertferanec
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 24, 2018, 06:58:45 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on March 20, 2018, 09:56:02 pm- I agree, a lot about Altium's current strategy is about keeping shareholders happy. Let's see what will happen and how far it will go.- About the market share, this graph from Natasha's Baker ( SnapEDA )answer in Quoralooks interesting:There is a note about PADS:" ...Since PADS support on SnapEDA is in Beta, it is most certainly under-represented here ...", so ignore the PADS number.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 24, 2018, 08:03:14 pm
content: Quote from: robertferanec on April 24, 2018, 06:58:45 pmI'm sorry, but 12% KiCAD is just not believable. Also 26% Eagle...This is more like a statistics, on how many users are incapable of creating a library.I dont think there will be a clear statement on the number of licenses from the big 3 companies. They are busy charging 5 digit numbers for a single seat, and mixing IC design tools with PCB design tools. Meanwhile if you mention Zuken for an engineer here, they will think it is some sort of German candy and Pads is something they showed once in university twenty years ago. And eagle is a bird, and a software that is almost as good for designing PCBs as MS Paint.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 24, 2018, 08:07:43 pm
content: Quote from: NANDBlog on April 24, 2018, 08:03:14 pmPads is heavily used in China, but mostly pirate copies, so they won't appear in the statistics.

author: Karel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 24, 2018, 09:44:52 pm
content: source:www.altium.com/resources/investor-announcement/investor_presentation_august_2015.pdf(page 50)

author: Karel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 24, 2018, 09:46:54 pm
content: Okay, it's from 2011, but still...https://www.eejournal.com/article/20110517_board/

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 25, 2018, 07:00:56 am
content: Quote from: Karel on April 24, 2018, 09:44:52 pmThat is revenue, not number of seats. Allegro is about 5x the price for a full config.And OK, big companies are going to use Allegro for example, but they are not going to ask you to know the tool because "We have CIDs doing the PCBs". So in the end you have a lot of tiny companies working with Altium, where the enginer has to do sch, layout and sometimes coding.

author: mrtn
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2018, 12:24:20 pm
content: Quote from: ebastler on March 30, 2018, 03:07:27 pmHas anyone here tried Zuken? I'm trying to get a "test drive" license but my company and their company's legal departments are figuring out the NDA. It's been a month so far.

author: ajawamnet
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2018, 12:39:57 pm
content: You have to realize that Cadence is a chip design tool company. They give ORCAD and full seats of Allegro away to their IC design customers. I've talked to the old AD guys and they battle that constantly when trying to get Altium in larger tech companies. A full seat of Allegro is about $50K - and try to get basic signal integrity from Cadence (Sigrity) - I was told a years subscription is silly expensive.Here's an example.In Altium, there's an output generator that will great plots/PDFs of each layer, one per sheet configurable to show things like mech layers board outlines on all sheets. To get that same style of plot out of Allegro is something like an $11K option according to our VAR - it's tied into Advanced Package Designer. If you go thru Allegro help, you'll see alot of it is directed toward their IC tools....I was an ORCAD customer back int he DOS days; when the first Windoized versions came out in 1995 (6.22 for sch; a bastardized Masstec eventually for PCB) it ate one of my dsn's so bad even tech support couldn't recover it. I jumped to Protel, which was actually had very similar key shortcuts to DOS SDT Orcad.Every once in a while I'll update my Orcad Allegro thing; but I get the more expensive version since the only thing I really use is the Specctra autorouter (based on the old Cooper & Chan) - I have tons of DO files gathered over the years. Altium screwed that a bit with AD15 I think, where if you have more than one clearance it hoses the global with the largest size - but the dsn is ASCII so it's easy to fix.More information on my lab and shop:http://www.ajawamnet.comhttp://www.ajawamnet.com/ajawam3/swarf/swarf.htm

author: Karel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2018, 03:55:37 pm
content: Quote from: mrtn on April 26, 2018, 12:24:20 pmOnly Cadstar, which is terrible in my opinion. The more professional packages CR-5000 and CR-8000 I haven't tried.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2018, 06:22:12 pm
content: Quote from: NANDBlog on April 25, 2018, 07:00:56 amThat is not entirely true. If you want to do schematics and PCB design then Orcad Capture + component library management (CIS) + Allegro PCB (including the signal integrity tool) is way cheaper compared to Altium.

author: ehughes
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2018, 06:25:51 pm
content: Zuken is primarily used in Japan. Be prepared for a 80k price tag for CR-8000 by the time its all done. They have been more aggressively marketing in the USA and more flexible with pricing but when I asked a few years ago it was nuts.

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2018, 07:35:00 pm
content: Hmm, I wonder if CR-8000 is what makes all those minimal-etch boards? Anyone know?Stuff like this:https://farm6.static.flickr.com/5297/5501912915_dc67316169_b.jpgWhat's especially weird (compared to anything else) is the "trace" around C24(-), which makes a complete loop around those nearby components and joins back up with itself, and then goes up and down into the rest of the nearby circuit. Except wait, in fact it joins up with itself a second time again, between R83 and IC5-4!The random shapes, of both traces and gaps, is so weird. It seems traditional from the tape days, unless they were using some CAD back then too (e.g., I've taken apart plenty of ~70s radios with a similar design style, but smoothly curved -- presumably hand taped), but it baffles me what EDA tools would be so arbitrary and redundant, unless it's because of forever-bad autorouting.Tim

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2018, 07:56:13 pm
content: Quote from: T3sl4co1l on April 26, 2018, 07:35:00 pmIt is not a trace but a ground pour! It is pretty common in these kind of single layer designs to have the ground snake between everything.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2018, 08:57:00 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on April 26, 2018, 06:22:12 pmI think OrCAD Pro SCH + PCB is 1500, the library tool is another 1200 (dont quote me on that). But here is a catch: If you want to open two PCB files at the same time, you need two licenses. So you cannot just copy placement information or work without proper drawings, if you need two or more PCB in a design. Also, here is what you are missing out by not having Allegro:https://www.fedevel.com/welldoneblog/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/PCB_Suites-MATRIX.pdfThose options are expensive.Quote from: nctnico on April 26, 2018, 07:56:13 pmAnd those tiny ground pours are absolutely useless.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2018, 09:13:44 pm
content: Quote from: NANDBlog on April 26, 2018, 08:57:00 pmWhy? A fat, snaking ground connection is still better than a thin, snaking ground trace, isn't it?And whether or not the remaining "pour" areas provide electrical benefits, I was under the impression that they are also left in the copper layer since it makes the etching chemical last longer (compared to a layout where everything except the active traces gets etched away). So every pour is useful, in at least one way.Why does that remind me of this? I digress...

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2018, 09:24:38 pm
content: Quote from: NANDBlog on April 26, 2018, 08:57:00 pmThat comparative matrix is very outdated. The standard PCB Designer has most of the features nowadays:http://www.orcad.com/products/orcad-pcb-designer/compare

author: asmi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 27, 2018, 12:53:36 am
content: Quote from: ajawamnet on April 26, 2018, 12:39:57 pmSI tools (SigXplorer) are now included even with the most basic license (Orcad PCB Editor Standard), the only feature that's not available (requires SI upgrade) is parameters sweep - but you can still "sweep" manually by changing parameters and re-running sim. And that alone makes this offer worth looking at as it's the cheapest sim that supports IBIS/HSPICE models. Sigrity is something else entirely.

author: robertferanec
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 27, 2018, 10:38:25 pm
content: Quote from: NANDBlog on April 26, 2018, 08:57:00 pmAbout the link: I need to update the whole post where the Matrix is located - or better I need to write a new post or create a video to compare Altium and OrCAD Professional.I am currently testing OrCAD Professional. The features and capabilities are quite good. I do not know what the exact price is now, but I have got mine 2 years ago for I think around 2000 USD (depends what kind of deal you are able to get). What I am very surprised is, that OrCAD Professional includes also things which you can use to route for example T-Branch memory layout (this means you can set rules to compare length of branches and that is a very useful feature + once you setup the rules, you can do interactive length tuning based on the rules .. and you will know how much length you need to add to particular branch).I was talking about this to friend of mine, and we both agreed, that for today's designs, differential pairs and memory layout is essential, so probably this is reason why companies are including in cheaper versions also the things which used to be high speed a few years ago. Of course, I guess other reason could be, that Altium has taken a lot of market, so others are trying to catch up and need to offer something interesting.

author: asmi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2018, 12:37:24 am
content: Quote from: robertferanec on April 27, 2018, 10:38:25 pmRetail price is $5k, but their sales people seem willing to negotiate.Quote from: robertferanec on April 27, 2018, 10:38:25 pmI really like SI functionality included into Pro license as it allows you to simulate the trace as it's routed on your board (SigXplorer can extract trace information from your board file). So far all my high-speed traces (DDR3L, HDMI, USB 3) worked on a first try just like sim said they would. I also used it to determine best termination values and their best position on a board to achieve optimal SI.BTW I love your videos on YouTube, I only wish your Orcad course would be a bit cheaper for "advanced hobbyists" like meThere is A LOT of features packed in, and every so often I still encounter new ones

author: robertferanec
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2018, 01:45:38 pm
content: Quote from: asmi on April 28, 2018, 12:37:24 am- Thank you asmi.PS: Before recording the course, I was planning to set the price around 99USD. It just took much longer to prepare (7 months in total) and duration of the course itself is much longer than what I was originally expecting (almost 25h). Send me an email and make a note about this post