We -all- lie about our age. Car mileage hack. Big Clive. - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2019, 01:16:04 am
content: Check out this little bit of fuckery.Winding the clock back in the 21st century.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2019, 10:01:44 pm
content: Back in the day, an electric drill was all that was required to clock a car.The slope control on the CAN IC is to limit the slew rate of the output squarewave, thus cutting the high frequencies and reducing EMI. The downside is a lower slew rate limits the baud rate.

author: MrMobodies
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2019, 12:10:43 am
content: Some extra things to check when buying a used car.

author: blacksheeplogic
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2019, 01:19:49 am
content: Quote from: Ed.Kloonk on December 10, 2019, 01:16:04 amYep, start a thread without actually knowing any of the background claiming fuckery.You don't know the reason or really have any background to know if this was done for a legitimate or fraudulent reason.It's not uncommon to need to correct distance or for that matter to alter the on going recording of distance (for example compensating for MPH / KPH). Bikes in particular have this problem and it's quite common depending on where they were imported from or their intended market. A new bike here (from the manufactures importer) for example is just as likely to have the cluster in MPH even though we use KPH as often they chose to bring in Bikes built for the NA market.Re-dialing or re-programming if available can be expensive and often not even available though 'Authorized' centers . Equally likely is a salvaged ECU may have been used to lower a repair cost for example.It could have been fraudulent BUT you don't know in this particular case.

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2019, 01:59:33 am
content: Quote from: blacksheeplogic on December 11, 2019, 01:19:49 amSo you're saying that the expression fuckery should only be used in the case of a fraudulent reason?

author: blacksheeplogic
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2019, 02:11:31 am
content: Quote from: Ed.Kloonk on December 11, 2019, 01:59:33 amBased onYOURthread title, yes, your are implying a nefarious intent.

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2019, 02:20:45 am
content: Quote from: blacksheeplogic on December 11, 2019, 02:11:31 amI'm sorry you feel that way. Why do you get off your high horse and go back to riding little black sheeps.

author: Red Squirrel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2019, 02:37:31 am
content: I'm surprised they did not just figure out a way to permanently change the value. That way no electronics are left behind as evidence. Guessing that's very hard to do?

author: sleemanj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2019, 05:52:34 am
content: Nobody would want to fudge the numbers to make a car in miles show the numbers in km, that would be stupid, make your car with 30k show as 50k just because you can't do math? I drive a car with miles on the dial no trouble.Besides, the device in question just lopped off a fixed amount from the odo reading apparently, nothing to do with making it read correctly.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2019, 06:00:38 am
content: I've always had cars with mechanical odometers, I can take them apart and set the mileage to anything I want. The only time I've ever done so was to dial the mileage *up* to match my estimate of the true mileage after fixing odometers that had been stopped for some time due to broken gears or other faults.I don't think rolling back odometers to increase the value of a car is common anymore. Cars last such a long time now that I've never even really cared about the mileage, it's all about the condition and the first thing that usually starts to show deterioration due to high mileage is the driver's seat, steering wheel, and paint. If the car looks well taken care of, drives well, engine and gearbox behave and don't make funny sounds or leak a lot then it's probably ok.

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2019, 06:51:06 am
content: Quote from: james_s on December 11, 2019, 06:00:38 amYeah. It really depends on who drives the car how old the car actually is. I thought that ODOmeters were mainly for the owner to know when the service intervals are due to comply with manufactures warranty. But you know car makers, as soon as the car's out of warranty, you're on yer own, son...

author: Red Squirrel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2019, 07:13:23 am
content: Mechanically car engines are super reliable, it's usually the rust that is an issue so the frame, body etc is what goes first. Had to put my car to pasture a few months ago because the subframe was rotted out, it had a bit under 130,000km or so. A vehicle of same year with 50,000 would probably be just as badly rusted. I really hope stainless steal and aluminium start to become more popular in vehicle construction. For what a new vehicle costs, it should last close to a life time imo.

author: ealex
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2019, 07:46:53 am
content: this is the specific item:https://www.ebay.com/itm/Hot-MB-Benz-CAN-Filter-18-in-1-for-W222-W221-W205-W204-W447-CAS-FEM/184040829136?hash=item2ad9b030d0:g:hRcAAOSwsCdd7xWefrom the description: "This MB CAN Filter 18 in 1 Benz / BMW Universal filter should be added to car after odometer adjustment for most chassis model"so it looks like it's specifically designed to roll back the odometer.over here it's still ~ common practice to fake the odometer and increase the resale value.those things are mainly used here, where "cheap and low mileage" second hand cars are sought after.=> you have to be extra careful when you plan to get a SH - you might end up with a dangerous piece of junk with only 50000km ...

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 11, 2019, 09:35:11 am
content: Quote from: blacksheeplogic on December 11, 2019, 01:19:49 amI can't think of a single legitimate reason why someone would purchase a device online which modifies the mileage of a vehicle, particularly one with a digital readout.In older cars, it's not reported via OBD (so a dealer or mechanic would easily be able to do this for you if you had to replace the instrument cluster). In the case of more modern cars where the readout is on an LCD display, the value is not stored in the display itself so even replacing it wouldn't change the real mileage of that vehicle.In the rare case you bought a vehicle which doesn't allow you change the unit of measure through a menu, well, tough I say.Not to mention, in many countries, deliberately modifying the speedometer of a vehicle is considered fraud and punishable by law.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2019, 10:38:31 am
content: Quote from: blacksheeplogic on December 11, 2019, 01:19:49 amExcept this device doesn't convert km to miles. It simply knocks 20k off the number.There really isn't any reason for converting km to miles. Here in the UK we use miles and if I bought a European bike, it would be clearly all marked up in km, so I'd know how many miles it has done. I certainly wouldn't consider buying a vehicle if it had one of there devices installed.

author: VK3DRB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2019, 10:58:57 am
content: Your sweeping statement that we ALL lie about our age is utter nonsense. Are you God and know everyone? No evidence, no data, and no logic. I have never lied about my age and I personally don't know don't know anyone who, to my knowledge, has lied about their age.As for the winding odometers back, the Holden VE Commodore instrument cluster is designed that the odometer cannot be wound back after the odometer exceeds 100km. I worked on the encryption algorithms for the instrument cluster, and we made it near impossible to hack. The comms uses an unorthodox and very tight tolerance serial baud rate, it uses public/private key encryption, and has two other unique and innovative anti-hacking methods. We did this to stop crooks and prevent piracy of our technology in China.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2019, 11:05:58 am
content: LMAO I can't believe anyone actually suggests there is a legit reason for this to exist. Some utterly bonkers people out there.And this is really worrying. If it's that easy then buying any car on the second hand market is a massive risk. Even a dodgy dealer could buy one and just ram it in.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 11, 2019, 11:09:30 am
content: Quote from: VK3DRB on December 11, 2019, 10:58:57 amYou're assuming the VE Commodore would even reach 100,000 kilometers before being sold for parts or scrap.

author: wilfred
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2019, 11:21:26 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on December 11, 2019, 11:09:30 am100km was the original claim. So it might be to make it more appealing on the showroom floor when new.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2019, 11:35:32 am
content: Quote from: Red Squirrel on December 11, 2019, 07:13:23 amHow would aluminium be an improvement? I've had a car with some aluminium panels, and these degraded faster than the steel ones. This is not an unusual experience. Alloy wheels are notorious for leaking due to corrosion. I recently had a set taken back to bare metal, and epoxy powder coated, because the tyres were deflating a couple of PSI per day. The car is only 7 years old, and the steel body is still in great shape. The place which did the work indicated that the bulk of the alloy wheel rework they do relates to slow deflation problems due to corrosion around the rim.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2019, 11:39:34 am
content: I drove an aluminium car for a bit (land rover). All it did was make the non aluminium bits rust quicker.

author: BillyD
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2019, 12:22:08 pm
content: Quote from: blacksheeplogic on December 11, 2019, 02:11:31 amNot sure what you're getting so angry about. The youtube video is even titled "Naughty CANbus odometer "interface". (Fakes mileage.)" and in the video he describes it as 'illegal electronics' so 'fuckery' is hardly the most offensive word here.Yes there are many legit reasons for modifying the mileage stored in the computer - ecu replacement/engine replacement/etc - but it's fair to say that a covertly fitted consumer device which subtracts exactly 40,000 from the displayed value is highly suspicious and certainly not the right way to do it.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2019, 12:34:58 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on December 11, 2019, 11:39:34 amRover, and now Jaguar, have long been keen on the use of aluminium for body parts. The partially aluminium car I had was a Rover P6. They were great cars. However, I've never heard of anyone choosing a Rover for its wonderful durability.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2019, 12:54:03 pm
content: Quote from: VK3DRB on December 11, 2019, 10:58:57 amI think the lying about age statement was tongue in cheek.QuoteNothing is unhackable. There will be ways round that, such as replacing the display in the instrument cluster with a fake one.

author: schmitt trigger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2019, 01:26:20 pm
content: The only time I would lie about my age is when I was a teenager and wanted to purchase cigarettes.Nowadays people ask for an ID.

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2019, 08:52:25 pm
content: Quote from: Halcyon on December 11, 2019, 11:09:30 amThere is some interesting after market stuff starting to come out for to '97-'06 era commodores. Holden have killed off the Commodore and more importantly Holden according to the business fish-wrappers will no longer be a operating two years from now.That leaves owners of these cars that have had the engine and gearbox reconditioned a need for replacement electronic modules which are drying up at the wreckers. When you swap out an engine computer, you must also match that cars' BCM (Body Control Module) or the engine wont start and/or the keys and radio don't work.The new generation of replacement ignitions will be interesting and quite interactive for the owner in terms for problem reporting.

author: Red Squirrel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2019, 03:38:18 am
content: Quote from: bd139 on December 11, 2019, 11:39:34 amThat's part of the issue too it's very hard to implement properly. You can't just have different metals touching each other.

author: eti
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2019, 04:22:10 am
content: Quote from: blacksheeplogic on December 11, 2019, 01:19:49 am"But but but butttt officer, I am using it for entirely legal purposes, honest officer..."Yeah okay, well done and see you in a few years.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2019, 05:57:50 am
content: Quote from: eti on December 12, 2019, 04:22:10 amThere's no law against adjusting an odometer, at least not in the US and certainly not against owning hardware capable of doing so. It's illegal to falsify the mileage but I haven't heard of someone doing that in decades. Once a car is old enough, about 10 years iirc the mileage is exempt and no longer needs to be reported.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2019, 08:28:23 am
content: Ethics stand above laws.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2019, 12:52:42 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on December 12, 2019, 08:28:23 amEthics which are not codified in law are merely for personal consumption.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2019, 03:45:28 pm
content: Quote from: CJay on December 12, 2019, 08:47:32 amCertainly trueQuote from: coppice on December 12, 2019, 12:52:42 pmNothing wrong with shaming someone for being a dick however.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2019, 08:53:27 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on December 12, 2019, 05:57:50 amIsn't selling a car with an adjusted odometer falsifying mileage?

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2019, 09:06:24 pm
content: Quote from: Zero999 on December 12, 2019, 08:53:27 pmI think it depends whether you claim the odometer to be accurate or not. In the 1970s it was common to look around the cars at used car dealers in the UK and find all the odometers set to zero.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2019, 09:27:03 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on December 12, 2019, 09:06:24 pmBut, if you're upfront about the odometer being off, then it would considerably reduce the car's value, as the buying won't know the true mileage.

author: sleemanj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2019, 09:42:46 pm
content: Don't know about other countries, but here in NZ light diesel vehicles (and soon electric vehicles) pay Road User Charges based on dash odometer readings (heavy diesel vehicles have hubometers), the owners of such vehicles buy a block of Road User Charges that takes them to a specific odometer reading.It is not unheard of for odometers on such vehicles to be disconnected or made to run slow such as to commit fraud and pay for less kilometres than they actually use.However, simply shaving off a fixed amount as this device does is not going to achieve that result, well unless you drive 40 thousand without getting caught or buying RUC stickers and then "wind it back" 40 thousand and buy yourself 1000km to "get legal" (fraudulently).

author: Gregg
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2019, 09:44:42 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on December 12, 2019, 05:57:50 amHere is a real lawyer on youtube that states the 10 year date is only for reporting the odometer reading upon title transfer; but it is still a crime to roll back odometers

author: Rerouter
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2019, 10:08:17 pm
content: For the record. Holden VE commodores are very easy to reprogram. You just need to know the trick.In Australia you can set a cluster to any non original milage so long as you fit a milage change sticker supplied by I think the rta.So far only about 40 of the ~1600 or so models i know how to change have used actual crypto. Most are just obscure patters (nissan kansai clusters where a right pain to get 1km accurate), renault and peugeot just throw a crc16 at the problem. For most of them they made interesting suduko level challenges to reverse.For reference we only do legal alignment (original cluster brought in and a new replacement one matched to the same km and settings),some models of cars have the cluster die in interesting ways. The ford falcon AU for instance. Its coil pack would fail and break just the eeprom in the cluster via over-volt down the rpm signal wire. And only the eeprom.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2019, 11:10:37 pm
content: Quote from: Gregg on December 12, 2019, 09:44:42 pmAn important detail in that video, "if you roll the odometer back *with intent to defraud*" that is a crime. That doesn't make it illegal to roll an odometer back, for example if you replace the speedometer or instrument cluster with one from a salvage yard (as I have done many times) it's perfectly legal to roll the odometer back or forward to match the approximate mileage on the car. It is certainly not illegal to own tools capable of doing so.It should be plainly obvious to anybody that misrepresenting a car as having lower than actual miles in order to sell it for more money is morally wrong and almost certainly illegal. Speaking as someone who has adjusted odometers numerous times that was never my goal. It was always either correcting a replacement odometer or rolling forward a formerly stopped odometer after I repaired it in an effort to have it read as close as possible to the actual mileage on the car.

author: VK3DRB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2019, 03:53:50 am
content: Quote from: james_s on December 12, 2019, 05:57:50 amNot sure what it is now, but in the 1990's if a dealer got caught winding the odometer back he could be hit with a $180,000 fine. A friend went to buy a second hand Mitsubishi Magna in a certain town in Victoria. My friend noticed the service log book showed a lot more km's than what was on the odometer. My friend worked in the legal profession and the dealer knew it. When my friend brought this anomaly up with the dealer, the dealer offered him a brand new Mitsubishi Magna for the second hand price, effectively about 40% of the new price.

author: VK3DRB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2019, 04:35:58 am
content: Quote from: Rerouter on December 12, 2019, 10:08:17 pmNope, it is is illegal.https://www.choice.com.au/transport/cars/used/articles/odometer-tampering-fraudhttps://www.theage.com.au/national/victoria/car-dealer-fined-for-winding-back-odometers-20140103-308qd.html.It is rife...https://www.drive.com.au/motor-news//5000-dodgy-used-cars-sold-every-week-20140123-31arfThe perpetrators are lucky their victims do not take the law into their own hands. I know of someone who would provide some "contact counselling" to anyone who ripped him off by winding an odometer back. Actually he would do a lot more than that as he has a rather violent side.

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2019, 05:47:48 am
content: Quote from: VK3DRB on December 13, 2019, 04:35:58 amI still wouldn't buy a car solely on the amount of mileage. As I said above, a buyer should inspect the car thoroughly or have it done professionally.One thing a seller can do instead of being temped to fudge the miles is replace the shock absorbers and rubbers. A buyer might have road tested 4 or 5 other cars but your one rides the best and has less rattles.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2019, 07:30:01 am
content: Quote from: VK3DRB on December 13, 2019, 04:35:58 amYou're either missing or deliberately ignoring a very important detail here. "so long as you fit a milage change sticker supplied by I think the rta"You and many others are fixating on fraud being the only reason one might adjust an odometer and ignoring the valid reasons for doing so that do not involve fraud. It's very, very common to encounter broken odometers in cars built at least up into the late 90s.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 13, 2019, 01:23:13 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on December 13, 2019, 07:30:01 amCould you give me one legitimate example for using for a cheap Chinese device used to deliberately obfuscate or lie about a true odometer reading in a modern car?I get that analog odometers break and need replacement and that's fine (and acceptable by law if done correctly). But this device has nothing to do with those types of vehicles/odometers. It is designed for modern vehicles with an LCD / digital readout. As I mentioned, even if the LCD becomes faulty, replacing it is a trivial task and normal function can resume after replacement. The vehicle management hardware and software doesn't stop logging correct mileage just because the display doesn't work.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2019, 05:28:01 pm
content: Can it set the mileage to a specific value? If so then sure, any time you swap out the cluster or ECU, whichever stores the mileage then you need a way to set the odometer. There are lots of faults that are not just the display, ECUs and clusters both fail occasionally, several others here have noted examples.If it *only* chops off a random mileage then no, I can't think of a legitimate use of that particular gadget.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2019, 05:29:47 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on December 13, 2019, 05:28:01 pmFor which you have programming tools.

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2019, 06:05:41 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on December 13, 2019, 05:28:01 pmThe way I understand it (from various car repair forums over the years), it's normal that the Engine ECU and the Cluster are 'paired' and the mileage is stored in both. In the case of replacement (requiring unpairing and re-pairing), the part with the highest recorded mileage wins and updates the other.P.S. Presumably the 'device' was lying to both the ECU and the cluster, mirroring what each expected and passing across less mileage increments. In the above situation, the Odometer would suddenly show a big step-change after it was removed (which is what Clive implies at the end of the video).

author: Rerouter
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2019, 09:11:00 pm
content: These modules are very rarely used legitimately. But they could be used if your replacing a module in the vehicle with a higher milage. E.g. an ECU from a wreckersIt is possible to have someone reprogram the odo in that ecu the same as the rest before using it. But its usually a more involved job. And if you just grabbed something off a wrecker. You would probably end up testing it in your car first. Everything updates and woopsThe module blocks the pairing. But other than that. Driving 100km will increment the dash by 100km.

author: rrinker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2019, 09:27:17 pm
content: Not having bought or sold a car in any different states in the US, I can only speak for the one I live in, but on a title transfer here, there is a line to sign that you certify that the mileage shown is accurate - there is an option to indicate the mileage on the odometer is not the actual mileage, which can be useful if it's rolled over once or twice, or does not match because of replacement of the instrument cluster. You still need to indicate the actual mileage, and by signing you are committing perjury if the number is false and you sign to testfy that it is.I've never had a problem, but we did get some skeptical looks when I bought my friend's truck a couple of years ago - 1993 Toyota (just Truck in the US, Hilux elsewhere), with only 63k miles. Yes, it really is that low. And I only put about 1000 miles a year on it.

author: Red Squirrel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2019, 10:48:32 pm
content: I guess if you were sketchy you could lie about the mileage via pictures/ads, and then only put the real mileage in the legal parts of the sale such as that line. You would technically be within the law I think. I guess the device itself is still illegal though.

author: Shock
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 14, 2019, 12:08:10 am
content: Somewhere on the internet... "It's not illegal"Somewhere in the south.... "Your honor, the defendant cannot adequately prove his motives were not fraudulent and no mileage was removed as a part of this modification. We cannot let the public at large think that they can just adjust their vehicle at will, why I could set your vehicle right now to appear factory new and just driven around the block.He should therefore receive the maximum punishment handed down for a clear case of the felony crime of odometer mileage tampering of a motor vehicle. In addition due to the nature of his electronic modifications that he receive the maximum punishment under felony wire fraud. This is a very unscrupulous and fraudulent crime your honor and we must set an example to protect the public from these modifiers."

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 14, 2019, 12:10:02 am
content: Hang him! From the tallest tree.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 14, 2019, 03:59:16 am
content: Quote from: Monkeh on December 13, 2019, 05:29:47 pmWhich is precisely what I thought we were talking about, I thought. If you mean authorized dealer programming tools, very few shadetree mechanics are going to have those so that doesn't count. I don't think there's a car new enough to need such a tool that I'd have any interest in owning but if I did have a need to program an odometer I'd certainly go looking at cheap clone hardware first.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 14, 2019, 04:05:32 am
content: Quote from: james_s on December 14, 2019, 03:59:16 amWe're talking about a device which man-in-the-middles the bus to alter very specific messages in order to fake the odometer reading. It is very specifically designed for a select number of modern vehicles where a healthy profit can be made by doing so.. If you actually owned and cared about one of these, the cost of having a competent shop with the tooling reprogram it would be irrelevant to you (and it might well evenstill be in warranty).

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 14, 2019, 04:08:53 am
content: Quote from: Shock on December 14, 2019, 12:08:10 amI can't speak for other parts of the world, but here it would be up to the prosecutor to make a case that the defendant had broken the law and then a jury of citizens would need to be convinced in order to convict them. Again speaking only for the US since that's where I am, it's legal to possess all kinds of things under the right circumstances. For example you're allowed to have a set of lock picks but if you're caught lurking around at night with them in your pocket with no reasonable legitimate reason for carrying them you could be charged with possession of burglary tools. Nothing wrong with owning a baseball bat, but carrying one around wielding it in any threatening way you risk being charged with possession of a weapon. Intent absolutely matters.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 14, 2019, 01:45:30 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on December 14, 2019, 04:08:53 amThe law is similar in the UK. For example, carrying a knife is illegal but a chef carrying a bag or case of knifes, securely locked up, whist walking to work will not be breaking the law, since they have a valid reason to do so.I believe the law will also help to sway whether someone is presumed innocent or not. For example, if it's normally illegal to adjust the odometer and it can be proven the defendant had done so, then it would also be assumed they intended to commit fraud and they would carry the burden of proof they did it legitimately. On the other hand, if it's legal to adjust the odometer, then the court would have presume they did it legitimately and the prosecution would have to prove they were intending to commit fraud.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 14, 2019, 02:11:17 pm
content: Quote from: Zero999 on December 14, 2019, 01:45:30 pmbut anyone who goes into a shop and buys a kitchen knife is on shaky legal ground just taking the thing home. This is one of those "make almost any reasonable behaviour illegal, so we can get anyone any time we want" laws.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 15, 2019, 10:45:30 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on December 14, 2019, 02:11:17 pmI agree. The law about carrying knives is a dodgy one. I suspect if the knife is still in its packaging and sheathed you probably won't be arrested, unless you're black, in which case the racist cunts will nick you anyway, especially if you're listening to drill or grime whilst you're walking home.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2019, 12:02:02 am
content: Quote from: Zero999 on December 15, 2019, 10:45:30 pmYour colour doesn't matter. What matters is whether they want to control you when you've done nothing else they can grab you for, such as expressing your opinion. Its the reason no British government will ever repeal the conspiracy law. Its just too useful to keep in reserve, however bad a government, like the Thatcher one, has looked when they actually used it.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2019, 12:37:17 pm
content: Paranoid lot here. It's actually a fallacy that having a knife on you will get you nicked. It's having a knife on you without reasonable purpose that will get you nicked.Hiking with a knife = yeah fineProfessional chef on the way to work = yeah finecheap ass santoku knife from Wilkos in shopping bag in packaging = yeah fineKitchen knife ambling around suburban west london = gonna get nickedQuote from: coppice on December 14, 2019, 02:11:17 pmThat's absolute bollocks.I live in the most stabby bit of the UK and it's literally a non issue.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 17, 2019, 11:42:02 am
content: Literally the law states that you need to have a "reasonable excuse" to be carrying a knife. That can be that the knife was just purchased (and is still in protective packaging) or the knife is required for their trade. For instance I carry a locking knife in the form of a Leatherman multitool. It would be illegal to carry without reasonable excuse, but I need it for my trade.