Why multimeter safety matters - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: joe72205
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: October 03, 2010, 09:38:19 pm
content: Just ran across these articles. Multimeter accidents hurt people.http://www.bnl.gov/userscenter/Immediate/cen_tech.asp'On Wednesday, December 7, 2005 an electrician at the Fernald Closure Project was injured when the multimeter being used to check voltage in a cabinet experienced an electrical short. 'http://www.iaei.org/magazine/?p=556"A recent survey ESA conducted with 5,000 electricians from across the province of Ontario revealed that 11 per cent of respondents had experienced a “violent failure of a multimeter.”"http://ecmweb.com/ops_maintenance/defective-test-equipment-20100101/"As he made this measurement, a fireball erupted from the panel, severely burning all three individuals and causing significant damage to the electrical equipment and surrounding area. Although witnesses and medical professionals provided rapid response and assistance, the injuries proved fatal for the electrician and the fire official."

author: Bored@Work
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 03, 2010, 10:34:27 pm
content: You can show these pictures a thousand times. And yet there will still be advocates for cheap multimeters, because they are so cheap.QuoteAnd it beats me why an electrician would use such a meter. They should know better. It also bets me why five years later one can still find these rubbish meters with their fake CAT II 600 V ratings in the market.

author: Kiriakos-GR
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 03, 2010, 10:56:40 pm
content: Quote from: joe72205 on October 03, 2010, 09:38:19 pmAnd your point are ........??That you are safer in the street ?There is no bulletproof protection in anything .Even the called bulletproof glass has limits.

author: joe72205
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: October 03, 2010, 11:00:44 pm
content: I thought the point is obvious. I don't really understand the intent of the reply.When the limits are well known and backed up by testing, it means a lot more than unknown or untested limits.Your safety in the street is certainly enhanced by proper street lighting and markings, properly operating signals, etc...What isyourpoint? Is it that safety doesn't matter and should be ignored because an asteroid could strike you dead any moment?

author: quantumfall
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 03, 2010, 11:18:13 pm
content: How tragic, these incidents you would think should never happen with people from the electrical industry. The training is so important. I worked as an electrician for a few years and never understood "Arc Flash".I did only installation work, not any commissioning or live maintenance work so only worked with it being isolated from power. Edit: I worked on installation of "Medium Voltage" switch gear and the phase conductors on three phase systems always had Flash barriers / guards between the bus bars and conductor with rubber boots on the lugs etc as far as I can remember. Maybe the switch gear is better in the UK.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2010, 01:55:11 am
content: my youngr bro is an electrician, but yet he never touch a DMM (or even bought one) like the one shown above (yellow), the company already provides them with more rugged one that i never have a gut to ask for the price. then i wonder what a such an electrician to use that $5 DMM?and the clamp meter? its like burnt to hell all over!i think its just a publicity crap!Dave has tested $5 DMM with KVolt, and all we have is an exploded parts at certain area. and then this is a clamp meter? non contact one?!urghh! give me a break! IMO its just exagerration of marketing trick!what do you think guys? we are all the real practicioner here. we dont hear it, but actually feel it.and if its for real, i think those electricians are soo sooo stupid that they dont know whats "electrocuted" means! i think it should be included in any electrician certification including the big bang boom! to teach safety

author: PetrosA
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2010, 03:50:02 am
content: Thanks for posting these links. The reality is that many professional users and most amateur users of multimeters have low end ones that may not be great with safety and many electricians aren't very well educated on using their meters safely. The local electrical supply houses in my area have lower end test equipment than the box stores. The average person has no clue how much energy can be released when you take a piece of wire or even a trace on a PCB and change its role during a dead short from that of a conductor to that of a resistor under high current. boom.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 04, 2010, 04:40:11 am
content: Quote from: shafri on October 04, 2010, 01:55:11 amYou can always argue that these type of photos and the exploding multimeters catching in fire etc are extreme examples and part of "shock'n'awe" type marketing, but the fact is it can happen.Anything that involves high capacity electrical installations (start from the household powerpoint) has the potential to cause this sort of damage. So that's why you should aways use a properly rated and designed unit when dealing with the mains and up.The clamp meter will also have regular probes and voltage ranges etc, that's why it likely exploded in this case.An analogy to this is that when I go canyoning/mountaineering etc I only use certified and tested name brand rope and equipment that is rated and tested to break at many tons. Yet even with a heavy pack I weight under 100kg, so why not just use a $1 200kg OneHungLow brand steel shackle from K-Mart?I hope the answer is obvious!Dave.

author: Bored@Work
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2010, 05:41:18 am
content: Quote from: joe72205 on October 03, 2010, 11:00:44 pmDon't wast your time. He is just the resident troll and attention seeker. He is attacking everyone when he sees his imaginary opinion leadership about "multimeters" threatened. Ignore him.

author: Bored@Work
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2010, 06:06:01 am
content: Quote from: shafri on October 04, 2010, 01:55:11 amNo, I don't think they are stupid. That's why I am surprised an electrician was using that joke of a multimeter.Where I come from electricians need three years of training and have to sit two exams before becoming an electrician. And that is not the end, they need several years (I need to look up how many exactly) practical experience, yet another year of full time training (or years of part time training) and another exam before they are allowed to run their own shop and employ and supervise other electricians.As an EE, when I have an electric problem in my house I call an electrician, instead of doing it on my own. Simply because they know it better. It is the same in my job. A bunch of EEs, but an electrician is called when there is an electric problem.Should I, however, ever see an electrician pulling out such a meter in my house or in my job, he'll first an earful and then will be thrown out of the house or I'll make sure he'll be thrown out of the company. You don't pay a specialist for rubbish work.QuoteI know that electrician training here includes watching horror videos and pictures of real world accidents.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 04, 2010, 08:23:43 am
content: Quote from: shafri on October 04, 2010, 01:55:11 amDave's test was a low-energy circuit with probably a pretty high output impedance. Power distribution circuits are lower voltage, but have an almost zero output impedance and can deliver huge bursts of energy (which is what those IEC61010 CAT ratings are about). I'm not surprised that a high-energy circuit can cause much more damage. About the isolated clamp, probably either Dave's right and they were using it for voltage measurements, or the isolation of the clamp got damaged.Quote from: shafri on October 04, 2010, 01:55:11 amNot many of use are industrial electricians, or have experience with circuits beyond low-voltage mains. These were all failures at distribution level or medium voltage installations I believe.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2010, 08:28:50 am
content: So far I've kept quiet on the cheap meter argument but I'll just throw my opinion in.Cheap meters are fine for a measuring low current, extra low voltage sources, such as a project hooked up to a small battery, a wall wart, a LM317 power supply etc. but not for hazardous voltages and currents.For measuring a circuit with a hazardous voltage or short circuit current, use a decent quality meter, not a cheap and nasty £5 piece of shit. Also note the fact that it's not voltage which does damage but energy, a cheap meter can cause you a serious injury if you use it to measure the voltage on a car battery and it short circuits it, causing it to catch fire and spray you with boiling hot sulphuric acid and molten lead.So yes, buy as many cheap meters as you like for measuring voltage and currents around low current, extra low voltage projects, they're very handy but if you want to do something hazardous such as measuring the mains, use a proper meter.

author: david77
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2010, 11:39:46 am
content: I have seen meters like these a few times. Usually when someone tries to measure howmany "amps" there are left in their car battery.I work in a small electronics shop, so I do sell meters. The fact is: People, even the pro's, arenot willing to spend more then 40.00 EUR on a meter.The cheapest meter for 9.90 EUR is the one I sell most. That thing is utter rubbish.I have some nice meters in my cabinet, but they cost 80-100.00EUR and no one is prepared to spendthat much money on a multimeter. Sad, but true.The 40.00 EUR meter has some nice features but is still shite. That's what my boss gives me to work with.Usually that's OK, because we don't do repair work, I only need it to check wall warts, batteries and fuses.Recently I accidently had the leads plugged into the Cx/Rx sockets and wanted to measure 230V on the primary of a transformer... BANG! SPARK! SMOKE! That made me jump, I can tell you. Luckily I didn't holdthe meter in my hands.David

author: McPete
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2010, 12:04:03 pm
content: This is a great illustration of what a high-energy source can do to your test equipment when, if you'll pardon the expression, "Shit gets real".One of the great virtues of my employer is their insistence on replacing older, non-IEC61010 (LV input protection) rated equipment... take the old prove de-energised sets; the test lamp. Nothing more than two 240V 40W globes in series with bare copper probes and single-insulated cable. You get a transient voltage as you're measuring, those will go off like a bomb, never mind all the pitfalls of intermittent elements giving false-negatives...Most of those have been replaced by Fluke T140s- Admittedly, not what I'd call an ideal solution, but hell, every linesman and electrical fitter-mechanic can take a genuine voltage reading, prove de-energised and test continuity.Safety and functionality from modern test equipment- Why wouldn't you pay a little extra for it?

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2010, 02:43:32 pm
content: ooo ok, i saw the link already. i posted too early before making judgement. i take back my word on the marketing thing. but one thing i dont understand, is how such a big bus bar melted by an arc flash. i thought the whole pcb tracks of the DMM will become the "limiting" fuse that burst first before the big bus bar does, even if the DMM does not have its own safety fuse?. maybe coupled with user error i think.this is an arc flash video i found during the googling. luckily he survived, and i think he will become 5 stars electrician after thatArc Flash Video

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2010, 03:04:48 pm
content: Quote from: david77 on October 04, 2010, 11:39:46 am@david77 & hero: i can assure you the car battery is still rated as low energy circuit. why? i did exactly as david77 mentioned about $5 piece of shit DMM (analog actually) i firstly bought to test A on V car batt many years ago. and luckily i'm still aliveand there was no explosion or even a single click AFAICR, its just the AMM straight away went dead.

author: Time
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2010, 03:20:43 pm
content: 25,000 A!Thats a real man's current.

author: joe72205
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: October 04, 2010, 03:52:15 pm
content: Quoteshafri:Regarding PCB traces: What WAS a PCB trace is now a live arc. The vaporised metal plasma becomes the conductor. The arc creates more plasma by consuming the materials around it. In other words an arc plasma is a NEGATIVE resistance - the current just keeps going up and up until things are physically blasted away by explosive force. This can happen in 1/20th of a second (like the video you posted).The HRC (High Rupture Capacity) safety-rated fuses are specifically designed for this situation by snuffing out the arc upon overload. They achieve this through internal geometry and choice of materials. (I believe the fusible link takes a zig-zag path through a packed dieletric such as sand.)Seehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breaking_capacityhttp://canteach.candu.org/library/20050708.pdf(see page 9)

author: Neilm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2010, 06:25:44 pm
content: The reason cheap multimeters are cheap is that they don't use HRC fuses, or worse they use the cheapest they can find. i.e. cheap knock off fuses that have the correct ratings on the outside. In the UK the mains plugs contain a fuse, on moulded plugs this fuse is located between the prongs and accessed by a small cover. A few years ago there were several incidents of explosions when there was a short circuit. They found out that the manufacturers were "saving a bob" and going to a cheap supplied from the far east. Click on the linkhttp://www.era.co.uk/services/devices.aspand press play to see what happened when this was tested.I have worked at a company that imported multimeters and we insisted that any new meter (or minor variation) be retested - and we upgraded our own facility to do it on site. Admitadly we can't get the correct power availablity as the sub station for the site is not up to the job but we are able to put an 8kV spike onto 600V. Also great fun closing the contactor when you are putting it across 600V in current measuring mode.I know that the video that Time posted was part of an investigation done into multimeter accidents done by a national safety althority. I believe that it was presented to the IEC commitee responsible for 61010 as justification that 61010 didn't go far enough. I think they then did further testing and concluded that the meters had either been "designed to" 61010 (but not tested) or just claimed that they had. Certainly I know that several meters we got to test could not have passed 61010 even with a cursory glance. For example, a varistor that was supposed to protect against surges had a metal screw head between the legs, there was barely even basic clearance.Neil

author: lhc
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2010, 06:48:23 pm
content: I know a guy that was a witness of such thing. He was working with guy that used some cheap chinese no-name multimeter to check circuits in wiring cabinet. He accidentally left it on resistance range (probably after checking some fuses) and connected to live circuit. The meter was blown to pieces and the probes were glowing red and burned his hands. If he would use a good certified meter he would see overload on the screen and nothing else would happen.This is the difference between cheap crappy instruments and high quality ones.Those things do happen in reality and safety matters the most.

author: Kiriakos-GR
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2010, 09:47:10 pm
content: Quote from: BoredAtWork on October 04, 2010, 05:41:18 amI think that you need a good vacation period , at list for a week ..To all :Its my personal rule , or style of life , to walk in balance , and so my vote does not go at the low class instruments , or either at the one that screams about how safe it is ..

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 05, 2010, 02:14:01 am
content: Quote from: Neilm on October 04, 2010, 06:25:44 pmcan i buy this super quality HRC fuse, install it in my $100 Uni-T or even the $20 No brand DMM and considered it settled (safe)?

author: Bored@Work
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 05, 2010, 05:58:28 am
content: Quote from: shafri on October 05, 2010, 02:14:01 amNo.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 05, 2010, 09:37:01 am
content: You can use fused leads but that only protects the cheap DVM against short circuits, not overvoltage which can cause shocks and fire.

author: McPete
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 05, 2010, 10:45:29 am
content: Besides your fuse acting quickly and extinguishing the arc, you're really hanging on two things- Your PTC/MOV/Whatever activating quickly (which should blow the fuse/input traces), and the case, leads and terminals being able to contain a lot of current and a small explosion...The latter is why I really wouldn't want to use my BKP 2709B on a high energy source- I doubt the case would contain the explosion of the internals...

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 05, 2010, 11:47:47 am
content: The bottom line is: you get what you pay for, and many people only look at the price

author: Neilm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 05, 2010, 05:50:41 pm
content: Quote from: shafri on October 05, 2010, 02:14:01 amNo -the reason you can't is that you don't know what other circuitry is there and if it is correctly rated and laid out. As I mentioned earlier I have seen over voltage protection devices that have been almost "short circuited" but poor layout - in that case a metal screw between the legs. This meant that if there was a transient it would jump from one leg to the metal screw and then to the other leg completely bypassing the protection.Somthing that is quite often overlooked is the effects of the fuse blowing. When a fuse blows you have a lot of current flowing through an inductor (the leads). This then causes the voltage to rise and if there is poor layout this can jump the fuse protection and cause (or continue) an arc.There is also the possiblilty that a poorly designed meter may have a fuse fitted that you can not get the correct rating HRC fuse for.Neil

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 05, 2010, 06:21:07 pm
content: Quote from: Neilm on October 05, 2010, 05:50:41 pmwell, so maybe at least the word for me is "better than nothing"who knows one day, thats the only thing that can cause the arc. or at least i've fixed one flaw out of many. buying more expensive DMM is in order. but i think not soon enough

author: joe72205
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: October 05, 2010, 07:30:40 pm
content: shafri:I would consider fused leads a safety upgrade for a cheap meter. Even if the two leads were connected by a bolted-down dead short (like the 10A range of a multimeter), properly rated HRC-fused leads should eliminate arc flash in many cases.The article i referred to athttp://www.iaei.org/magazine/?p=556makes this conclusion:QuoteNote the author: "Steve Smith, CFEI, CEI, C-Tech, RME , is projects manager, regulatory affairs, with the Electrical Safety Authority of Ontario. ... Steve is the project administrator for ESA's Multimeter Safety Initiative. ."Athttp://www.flukecommunity.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2820Fluke seems to disagree:QuoteIn other words, they consider a measurement of Zero volts (due to blown fuse) a more relevant hazard because it looks like the circuit is de-energized. To them, if you are using a Fluke meter you are already protected from arc flash, so there is no need to introduce the additional likelihood of an opened fuse in the test leads.To me that means you should buy test leads with an indicator that shows a blown fuse. And since wear and tear can also damage your test leads, make sure your working habits include a probe check against "known voltage" before you use them to ensure safe conditions are present.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2010, 06:05:35 pm
content: Quote from: joe72205 on October 05, 2010, 07:30:40 pmAgreed.To summarise: fused leads will make a cheap dangerous meter safer but it won't make it as safe as a decent meter.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2010, 09:15:39 pm
content: Quote from: lhc on October 04, 2010, 06:48:23 pmWhat about the Extech that was rated to 600V CAT III but blew up on a properly operating 240V CAT II circuit? I'm sure it would have really blew up if it were connected to a CAT III circuit.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 07, 2010, 07:11:27 am
content: Quote from: NiHaoMike on October 06, 2010, 09:15:39 pmDid anyone claim Extech made high-quality meters? I certainly didn't. I consider Extech somewhere halfway between cheap crap and high quality.I believe IEC61010 is self certified, although you may be able to get independent labs (like UL) to verify. So you have to trust the manufacturer to have done a good job. They can easily put 600V CAT IV on a cheap meter, especially Chinese manufacturers where there's basically no product liability.

author: Kiriakos-GR
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2010, 07:59:17 am
content: Quote from: alm on October 07, 2010, 07:11:27 amI hate doing comments on this type of descriptions , but I had to do it ... ( common sense)By slapping all day one country with one billion of people , you do not look as smart.Simple because its not an smart act ...1) Its like the American KKK to attack on the new enemy ..2) By Insulting the " number one " currently financial and industrial source in the planet ,you do not look any better , the opposite ... looks like that there is envy for those people.3) Its more wise to blame an brand if you have an good reason , than all China !!!4) I expect to meet and people from China, as members in this forum .. and so this generic expressions against China it works out by causing an hostile climate .I have more than 1000 historical generic reasons , to blame the Americans and mostly their government acts , but I do no see how this is going to help the forum life ..So my opinion is , any comment from now and on , it must to be specifically targeted to the one who worth's to be blamed.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 07, 2010, 08:23:04 am
content: Quote from: Kiriakos-GR on October 07, 2010, 07:59:17 amInstead of ranting, can you support the statement that I'm wrong with facts? I will happily change it to something like 'especially Chinese and American' if you can show that the practice of widespread fake certifications in the electronics industry and lack of product liability is just as common in other countries. I didn't claim that all or even most Chinese did it, so I'm not sure where your rant about insulting a billion people comes from, just that it seems more common in China. If you can show this to be incorrect, I will edit this statement.The problem with name and shame is that many products are sold under many different brands, and brands may disappear overnight.

author: Kiriakos-GR
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2010, 08:33:33 am
content: I will give an single fact ... If your country was such large as China are , the bureaucracy and the low speed about running the country ( law system ) , would be an good reason so the all country to look like as a giant airplane that has true hard times if it needs to turn left or right ..Its all an matter of time ... There is few that they take advantage of the holes of the law system in China.But I bet that this is an international sport ..

author: Mambo
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2010, 08:49:43 am
content: Quote from: Kiriakos-GR on October 07, 2010, 08:33:33 amAnd in that "matter of time" you could be dead !!!Common Sence when measuring "High Energy Circuits" is clear. Stay away from Forums advice and do your research. Some brands are renowned for meeting or exceeding IEC tests.What some of you are overlooking is that the fuse even a decent HRC fuse is not always the answer. Fused Leads (decent leads - most being made in the UK or Germany are an Answer), but CAT Rating in part relates to "Voltage Creep" & "Flashover". Track spacing and board layering is a very real consideration.Guys....if you buy a cheap car and it won't start "big deal". If you buy a cheap meter and you measure High Energy Circuits then "Good Luck" !!

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2010, 08:53:48 am
content: Quote from: alm on October 07, 2010, 08:23:04 amgenerically, we may call it "No Name" Brand. we'll have a heavier liability by pointing and shaming, you probably get shot in the headChinese products are well known for their "crappiness", they are cloners. even our local community "hibby jibby" nontech people got the impression. but yet, their products (ee or not ee) are humongous in quantity in our local and even international market, and people are like fungus scattered around looking for it, including... me, for some certain noncritical application and daily life needs that dont require complicated mechanical and electronical functionalities and short/temporary/panic time use.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2010, 09:02:22 am
content: China is quoted as "Sleeping Dragon", what we felt today is only coming from its calm breath. I'm afraid when its fully wake up, it will flash fires to Germany continents throughout the perimeter radius (what?!) including the Danaher thing. my crappy dusted 2cnts.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 07, 2010, 11:57:36 am
content: I'll repeat again, china is the big photocopier, when I was working for a man that wanted to import garments from china we received terrible items as samples. I know that you get what you pay for but if the manufacturers refuse to make rubbish and charge the extra for the good product there will be no problem.Enforcing liability for a bad or dangerous product across continents is nigh on impossible. The safety certification can easily be faked and you will never catch them.when Chinese manufacturers start acting morally maybe we can stop giving them the beating they deserve, and it's partly a cultural thing and you can say the same for any country with a poor population that will do anything it can to bring in the money.The best thing would be that a variable import duty is applied to goods, work out what it is worth and if it's being imported so cheap it's silly then the European importer who is as much to blame can pay the difference in import tax, we will benefit by suddenly finding properly made items affordable and local manufacturers will be able to compete and give us what we should be getting while getting our unemployed back into work. and the now expensive rubbish will not be bought any more.But then money makes the world go round and instead of trying to get European industry going again the governments try to lick the back sides of the chinese and I can't see how they are helping their country, probably their own pockets !

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2010, 12:08:30 pm
content: and i'll repeat again, politic sucks!

author: Kiriakos-GR
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2010, 05:18:29 pm
content: Quote from: shafri on October 07, 2010, 12:08:30 pmIts not politics .... its the American dealers who buy the cheapest crap and selling them at the American mega stores .I do wonder WHY some people insist to close their eyes deliberately , at the who has the fault ...WHO IS REALLY RESPONSIBLE !!And I will say it wide open .... in anything related with the American market imports ,its responsibility of the Americans ... blame your self's ..

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 07, 2010, 05:18:52 pm
content: @shafri it sure does, instead of people pointing the finger at each other they should point it at themselvesYes Kiriakos, blame is on both sides but both are thinking of money alone

author: Mambo
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2010, 12:02:57 am
content: Blame the User. You need to take your own safety as your responsibility.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2010, 12:06:02 am
content: Quote from: Mambo on October 08, 2010, 12:02:57 ami agree and add... you need to take your own knowledge as well. dont let luxury makes you ignorant.

author: MrPlacid
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2010, 04:28:44 am
content: Quote from: shafri on October 08, 2010, 12:06:02 amDave was almost killed by one of his tested multimeters. I cannot always blame the user's carelessness or lack of knowledge in every instances.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 08, 2010, 06:37:11 am
content: unfortunately manufacturers often miss the obvious, or don't do proper testing

author: Neilm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2010, 04:19:19 pm
content: Quote from: Kiriakos-GR on October 07, 2010, 05:18:29 pmIf you are in the Eu the responibility of ensuring a multimeter is safe is down to the company that first placed it on the market in Europe. This is the manufacturer (if manufactured in Europe) or the importer.If it is unsafe then they can be hit with unlimited fines and / or jail sentances for the managing and technical directors.YoursNeil

author: armandas
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2010, 04:41:59 pm
content: Quote from: Neilm on October 08, 2010, 04:19:19 pmIn theory, you mean?

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 08, 2010, 05:16:13 pm
content: quite, we know of many blown up meters there have been but have we ever heard of the manufacturer being chased for it, the British trading standards office is well loaded with all sorts of complaints and there are more and more dodgy goods being made by the day, basically too many to have any control over. I personally would like to see half of ALL goods found on shop shelves refused importation because they are intentionally made cheaply with the view that they will be replaced when broken because they are so cheap. Things are no longer made to carry out a function, they are made to make money, the amount of useless 5 minute wonder items around is ridiculous, our STUPID and IGNORANT government preaches about how they want to make us more green yet they are giving full authorisation to a continual train of rubbish, into the country, into the consumers hands for 10 minutes, then into the bin and landfill.We have this stupid WEEE thing in the UK but hec, I'm out and happen to remember that the stupid mouse i bought is broken after only 3 months and that i need another one, I haven't got the old one on me there and then to give back to the shop, and it will cost more fuel than the recycling of the mouse will yield to take it back later and hope they really do stick to the regulations and no just bin it.I know that people will cry out with indignation if they have to pay twice as much for an item but that's because people are to damn stupid to see that they could pay twice as much and get an item that lasts 10+ times longer. I no longer own a CD player, because you cannot find one that will withstand a fair amount of use for more than 3 months, my dad has been through many, they now sit around as radios only because the laser diode has failed and just because this one cheap little part has failed because they use ones that are deliberately crap the whole unit becomes rubbish, how come we have CD players that are 15 years old and still work ?And it's all valid for multimeters as well, the only people that can force change if the consumer cannot see the difference is the government, but then they are so scared of upsetting other countries (rather than looking after the people that elect and pay them) and lining their own pockets whilst not telling people that things are not right they let it go on.

author: Kiriakos-GR
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2010, 06:28:11 pm
content: Quote from: MrPlacid on October 08, 2010, 04:28:44 amYes, he had not see the sign " made in China " = The land that had choose to terrorize the world with exploding multimeter s ..To all.If the excuse about average products , its an good reason to throw rocks at this direction,instead throwing them to its other , yes agree its preferable to blast thesmall China,day and night. ( space program - army - plus wealthy )Dave had offered to us by his videos , all the basic knowledge that one consumer must have in order to make correct choices.And I will totally agree here with @MamboQuote1000+ to that ..By the same way that the Europeans does not accept to eat the mutant farming goods "Made in USA"and we choose the biological ones, by the same style pick up and your DMM ..

author: Neilm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2010, 08:08:54 pm
content: Quote from: armandas on October 08, 2010, 04:41:59 pmAs I was in a job where I would have been hauled up before the court if there were someone killed I did my best to ensure that we complied with all the regulations.Neil

author: david77
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2010, 08:33:44 pm
content: Simon, I agree with you. There really is so much rubbish out there it beggars belief.Last saturday I was in the city shopping with a mate, we visited a branch of Conrad Elektronik (German equivalent to Maplin) and we both agreed on one thing: We're in a huge shop full of crap. There was reallynext to nothing in there we would want to buy. He was looking for a car stereo - they had plenty, and withall the features he wanted. But not one of the stereos had a quality feel about it. It beginns with dreadfulstyling (all blinking lights for show) and ends with rattling wobbly stupid buttons that are so small you needa toothpick to press only one and not three. In times gone by there was one big dial to set thevolume and switch the thing on and off. Not so any more. Miniscule little buttons all over the frontpanel,no way you could operate without looking at it, and therefor taking your eyes and mind off the road.So he'll stick with his cassette tape radio for now...I think your run-off-the-mill consumer today has lost the ability to tell crap from quality. People seem tobe satisfied to chuck stuff out and buy the same crap in a different flavour again just to repeat that a fewmonths later.How can someone think a power drill for 25 quid could be a good deal? How can someone think a DVD player for 39,90 is good quality? Or a 4,90 EUR soldering iron? I don't get it. But it is the truth, I see it every day. Quality and safety are not something most consumers even think about. It has to be cheap!And even then they moan about it.I haven't got a DVD player because I can't find one that satisfies my quality requirements. My CD playeris a Grundig that was made in 1984.I work as a shop assistant in a small independent electronics store. I tell it as it is. Somebody asks me ifthat 5 quid iron is any good, I say no it isn't. I don't understand why they ask, it's obvious.I find I can often tell poor from good quality by nothing more than touching something. You feel thatcheap nasty plastic and think: "Nah, that's bound to be rubbish.". And then there's the solid quality plasticyou instantly know the manufaturer cares about his product. Hard to describe, but I guess you guys knowwhat I mean.I find that is most obvious with power tools. There's my good Makita cordless drill that I've had for overten years. The casing is solid, it fits perfectly, doesn't bend or creak, has a very good one hour chargerand there's the junk from your usual Home Depot style shops with crap batteries and a battery killing"charger" that only consists of a LED and a resistor.Sorry for the rant

author: Kiriakos-GR
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2010, 09:26:13 pm
content: @david77 I enjoyed your rant allot ..In the only devices that I found sparkles of quality are only at the old one ..I had rescued from the garbage can .. yes .. ( in a wooden box in the factory )One Roadstar car stereo , simple type cassette-radio , mostly because even if it was in bad shape externally ( full of grease and dirt ) , it was " Made in Switzerland " ...I did repair it , the damage was so easy and hard to find at the same time , because the smart one who had design it , he did not had room on the PCB , and made an thin trace line at the DC line that connects .. actually returns from the power switch back to the all circuitry ..Primarily the device are like new, never had the chance to work , Some one probably connected the cables with wrong polarity , and the PCB trace acted as fuse.The long story sort , it produces one true clear sound !! It has true watts , and even at low volume,you can feel that this item its an performer .. the sound filters has on it the known German symbols about tremble and bass , that looks like the music Sol key.I am so excited about it , that I will safe keep it , so to use it on my car , if I ever get one .Model : AD-7240 GXHere is an picture .. the internet looks dry about it.

author: Nermash
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2010, 09:55:24 pm
content: Err, sorry Kiriakos, but that made in Switzerland Roadstar...is more like company registered in Switzerland and factory in China.I have seen that brand a lot here. I have even repaired one dvd player, standard crapy equipment problem: dried electrolytics in psu, 2 year of light usage and bang... Guess what, made in Switzerland label.Damn those Swiss, they sure make cheap stuff:)How can they lie about where it's made? In my country it's no problem, you can write whatever you like.In other countries they probably just get away with it, nobody is checking...

author: Kiriakos-GR
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2010, 10:04:01 pm
content: Do not worry, the specific Roadstar is that old , that China at that time was making only riceForgery copies of anything branded always pops out.I have see too those fakes Roadstar .. cheap to the boneAnother example are the Adidas shoes , the honest fakes called Abidas

author: Bored@Work
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2010, 07:06:31 am
content: Quote from: david77 on October 08, 2010, 08:33:44 pmThere is one business case were it is a good deal. If you don't use it. Having a cheap tool you don't use, as opposite to an expensive tool you don't use, means you saved some money.Not buying a tool at all would be even more clever, but many people define themselves by what they own.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2010, 07:31:55 am
content: Quote from: BoredAtWork on October 09, 2010, 07:06:31 ami second, third and fourth this! some people buy top notch gears and then they think they can beat Mr. Faraday.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 09, 2010, 08:43:39 am
content: your made in Switzerland item of today was probably made in a Chinese factory called Switzerland, yes it's true they even get up to this, see Kiriakos (and others) you can call blame the importers and consumers but this is a chinese trick and a very dishonest one, there are factories called UK, Canada, USA and I bet many many more.I personally just don't know where to turn to buy stuff, yes I can eye stuff up and mentally take it apart and know it for what it is. Maplin in the UK makes eBay look like Jesus Christs very own table top sale unless you only want wire.I have found cheap power tools and they seem good so far, obviously they don't get industrial use but for 15-25 pounds I can buy any draper power tool and recommend them, my dad at 60 still has his fully functional Bosch drill that he got in his 20s !

author: TheWelly888
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2010, 09:10:45 am
content: Talking of cheap tools, I avoid the Rolson brand like the plague since my father bought a cheap set of Rolson tweezers from Craplin which turned out to have been made of metal that was barely more stiff than tinfoil! :-(

author: Kiriakos-GR
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2010, 12:20:09 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on October 09, 2010, 08:43:39 amNo no no no , I will always disagree about the part " who worth's the blame " .China are an nice country, and enormously large in population ,some they act as manufacturers .From the other side of the Coin we have West capital = hot money to be invested .And the Americans and the Europeans brands run like dogs and beg, so to start having an production line in China , so to be able to have competitive in price, products ..The common people, could throw rocks to its other or launch blames , but what matter to those Brands and manufacturers, are only the profit ...There is one chain with no feelings = Banks + Brands of products + manufacturers + resellers + media and advertising , and all those suckers targeting the pocket of the consumer ...The most of the consumers has in their head an picture about how our world spins , totally implanted by the " media and advertising " ...And the politicians do control " media and advertising ".When the people in any nation seek for answers , like "who is responsible for the unemployment ?"Those people, that with their signatures have made all the those Banking agreements and cooperation's of "Far East + West partners " due the embassy of its own country ... they say ..we do not have an idea of what did go wrong... and hide ..YES THEY HIDE ..? do not have any true reason to kick the butt of any citizen or consumer , no matter the nationality,That his signature its not on the paper of those agreements .. Made by bankers and lawyers and politicians.And so the myth-busting , reveals that no one has any right to blame China or those nice people down there ( south hemisphere ) , because it works well for some bankers + capitalists and other suckers ..

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 09, 2010, 12:29:42 pm
content: but to call a Factory UK, USA and Canada is a very dishonest trick, as was the second CE mark that they came up with, the Chinese will do what they can to make western importers happy, if they had some back bone and morarily they would just make good products and charge what it costs to make good products

author: Kiriakos-GR
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2010, 12:34:34 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on October 09, 2010, 12:29:42 pmWhat are you talking about ? This days we eat cheese that its not even made by milk !!Cows gets unemployed too.

author: Mambo
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2010, 02:06:28 pm
content: Quote from: Kiriakos-GR on October 09, 2010, 12:34:34 pmWell the Greeks are known for doing strange ( and very nice) things with Cheese & Yogurt. Having said that minus Milk is new too me....lol

author: Kiriakos-GR
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2010, 02:55:09 pm
content: Well I was referring to products distributed by large food chains , with out real brand on them,and they just have an marking " Made in EU " .The most humiliating thing are the ingredients that they make today even the ice cream ... something so simple that it should be " milk water and sugar " its ends to be an chemical formula more complex than an atomic bomb.Any way I stop here ... at list I know where to look and find real cheese .

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2010, 04:05:23 pm
content: Quote from: Kiriakos-GR on October 09, 2010, 02:55:09 pmluckily cheese is not our main food here. But our chickens are getting fatter and fatter due to injection of this atonic bomb formulation, so to gain money from heavier chicks sale, thats why i'm getting fatter too! who to blame? goverment? well i'm not so sure anymore, the sure thing is everybody is making more money than ever before.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 10, 2010, 09:09:05 am
content: yea some people get richer and many more get poorer

author: Kiriakos-GR
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2010, 06:37:13 pm
content: The point is who has the right to complain , or better to raise the voice tone first !!Fresh news ( Yesterday on the TV )Americans unemployed 40.000.000English unemployed 6.000.000Greece 50% unemployed ( 10.000.000 population is the 100% )And now I like to see an American to blast China ...What you will do American ? If your country had 150.000.000 of unemployed people !!Any way I just like to force some people to think twice before they speak about such matters.The condition in Greece , its like hell , even I, I am puzzled , even for the cost, of be on-line .

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2010, 07:01:35 pm
content: there should be no more blasting here. its enough for who negligently buy their cheap DMM and use it for high energy circuit.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 10, 2010, 07:10:27 pm
content: Quote from: shafri on October 10, 2010, 07:01:35 pmWhat's the fun ofnotblowing something up?

author: Kiriakos-GR
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2010, 07:20:27 pm
content: Quote from: alm on October 10, 2010, 07:10:27 pmI agree ..Any way , I do not support the cheapys too , because mostly its an waste of money.Many young ones " Overclockers " they get an multimeter so to measure Voltages at the CPU core or memory , and those cheapys are so inaccurate because they have large tolerances in accuracy,and they could not do even an proper measurement in DC .I got my Fluke 28II on the factory that I currently work, so to show-of a bitAnd my partner has an cheapy , and he liked to compare it with the Fluke at one measurement of AC Amperes ....and now the Funny part.. the damn cheapy had only 10A DC ... it was unable to measure AC Amperes .... you should be there to see the face of my partner

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2010, 07:32:13 pm
content: Quote from: alm on October 10, 2010, 07:10:27 pmas long as you are not blowing yourself!

author: haglered
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2010, 02:19:46 am
content: I find it hard to believe a professional electrician was using that first meter. The second meter looks like the victim of an arc flash event.Even the protection on the best meter available will not be sufficient to protect you from an arc flash event.It's kinda like standing down river when a dammed river breaks with an umbrella. It doesn't matter how good the umbrella is you are going to get wet when the water reaches you.

author: Time
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2010, 02:43:22 am
content: Quote from: shafri on October 10, 2010, 07:32:13 pmhahaha this cracks me up

author: PetrosA
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2010, 02:51:43 am
content: Quote from: Time on October 12, 2010, 02:43:22 amESL is fun