What kind of meter box is this? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: DylanM
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 14, 2012, 06:34:30 am
content: Hi, just a quick question..Our house only has one meter/breaker box, this one:It always looked perfectly normal to me and I didn't think much of it. But after looking them up online, it seems everyone else has something like this:http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y188/patlucado/100_0419.jpgSo is the box I have just an example of a really cheap scrappy electrical installment, or is it nothing to worry about?Thanks

author: adam1213
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 14, 2012, 06:54:17 am
content: disclaimer: I am no expert on this.What kind of meter box is this?: an old one.Some of the fuses at the top look like the old wire sort. At the time they were installed they would likely have been considered reasonable.It appears that your fuse box lacks RCDs. If this is correct you may want to consider getting a qualified electrician to upgrade your fuse box (along with checking that all earth leads are properly connected to power points and is connected to earth). *in some countries this might not be applicable.

author: DylanM
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 14, 2012, 06:58:39 am
content: Quote from: adam1213 on November 14, 2012, 06:54:17 amYes the lack of RCDs is the reason I've been looking into this. So you think it's time for an electrician? And when you say "upgrade your fuse box" do you mean a complete replacement of this entire unit with something new?

author: adam1213
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 14, 2012, 07:15:30 am
content: "So you think it's time for an electrician?" If you value the safety benefits more than the cost of upgrading it then yes. *I can't quantify the safety benefits entirely. Though some stats on it are available athttp://www.commerce.wa.gov.au/EnergySafety/RCD/RCD_laws.htmlAs for upgrading your fuse box an electrician could likely advise you on what would be required. A few years ago I had the majority of my fuse box replaced though what needs to be changed may differ in your case. * note that on installing RCDs they may initially trip if there are issues with your wiring.

author: Kremmen
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 14, 2012, 07:23:30 am
content: Electrical code varies country by country, but let me comment based on my local code.Firstly yes, this is obviously a relatively old box. The meter looks almost a museum piece at least if you compare with anything recent.What else might be under the galvanized sheet is anyone's guess but what i am missing in this picture are the main entry fuses and manual master breaker. In my country those would be mandatory at the metering panel where the distribution line enters the premises. The main fuses must be of the fusible type, these toggle breakers do not have the I^2 rating needed to break a hard short in the box busbars or similar.The box looks mechanically a bit wonky too. While that may be just the photo you definitely don't want any water or moisture inside this box.RCDs are a real good idea. At the same time you should get rid of all the ancient fuses and replace them with properly rated and labeled circuit breakers. At this point a completely new box will start to look like the way to go. So yes, do consider a visit from an electrician.

author: GeoffS
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 14, 2012, 07:47:01 am
content: Typical Aussie meter box. Seems to have a combination of wired fuses and RCD's (or possibly they're MCBs - miniature circuit breakers.)Pretty much the same as my meter box (except I have 3 meters). Mine is all fuses and no RCDs at all.I'd get an electrician to install RCDs, he/she will be able to check the wiring and to bring anything up to code that needs it.It won't be cheap!

author: Gall
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 14, 2012, 08:25:07 am
content: A really good meter/distribution box may look like that... (not yet installed)They are for rather small apartments. Basically almost every outlet has its own breaker and cable. The 3rd picture shows a priority relay to limit the total current to 40A.

author: GeoffS
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 14, 2012, 08:38:12 am
content: Nice setup! I've never seen anything like that here, at least not for a single dwelling.Meter boxes here typically to have 1 or 2 circuits for power and one for lights. Separate circuits for hot water, stove and heating/.cooling.There will be a meter for each different electricity tariff.

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 14, 2012, 10:07:35 am
content: Stay away from Quicklag circuit breakers. Expensive.

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 14, 2012, 10:24:03 am
content: Quote from: DylanM on November 14, 2012, 06:34:30 amTo answer your question. The ceramic fuse holders can be dangerous because of fracturing components and when you remove the fuse, live contacts are exposed. You are looking a few hundred bucks or even over a grand to replace the fuse box just because you don't like the look of it.A simpler way might be to get a bigger din-rail box with enough breakers to control everything. A box like the one you have that says "evap cooling" only longer. You'd turn it side ways so it runs vertical- should be enough room. Get a local sparky to give you a quote. Tell him you want RCD's (safety cut-out breakers) on your power circuits and that you want to tidy it all up a bit. He will understand. He should be able to indicate to you what is bad and what can/should be done.The metal plate covering the meter is a little worrying. I'm pretty sure that's illegal because (and I don't know for sure) it looks as though the fire-resisted black back board doesn't run the whole length of the meter box which could be deemed a fire hazard. You might be up for a new back board. It can be a lot of work to change the meter box to another one since it's "bricked in". If you can access the wires going from the box into your house you may be able to fix up the meter box and have just the meter, a main switch and a sub board isolator which controls a nice, compact sub-board inside the house(depends on the existing wiring accessibility, desired location and other factors).Plenty for you to think about.

author: Kremmen
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 14, 2012, 10:30:59 am
content: OK, pictures. These may not be directly applicable in your case, but perhaps food for thoughts.This is the premises entry box with main fuses, master breaker and meter. The smaller meter is a clock for tariff switching (night power is cheaper). It is powered via the smnall breaker next to the main one so as not to stop the clock while servicing something.The other circuit breakers are for those 1 and 3 phase outlets you see in the picture, as well as underground cabling that continues to the garage and cellar. Also some PIR controlled and other outside lighting get their power from here. Note RCD for all external consumers.Main panel in the house vestibule. This one has a separate breaker to cut power inside the house proper while not affecting other locations. Next to the breaker are the medium level surge arrestors followed by fine protection for the electronics in the studies and upstairs TV room. Last is a button and timer for rapid hot water boiler cycle. Useful if you get a large number of sauna visitors. This way you don't run out of hot water which normally is heated by cheaper night power only. After one night heating cycle it goes back to normal.There are several RCDs guarding different circuits - maybe more than you would need in other climates. However winters here can get cold and i don't want to put all heating circuit eggs in one basket. All of the breakers in the open position are floor cable heating circuits, currently offline as the fireplace and air heat exchanger are more than enough to heat the house. Top right you can see the motor breaker for the submerged water pump in the well. Behind the blind panels are terminal blocks and SSRs for the heating circuits. That way you don't get annoying pops in the loudspeakers.Upstairs wardrobe with lighting panel. Again the lighting is divided into several circuits so that if one blows a fuse the whole building won't be dark. All lights are controlled by step relays and the button circuits are SELV 24V. This brings the benefit that a light can be controlled from arbitrarily many places without any special tricks. Just wire a control button to the corresponding relay. E.g. the master bedroom has a set of buttons to control outside lighting and key lights inside the house.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 14, 2012, 10:32:19 am
content: The meter probably dates from the 1950's, and uses a current transformer to derive the load current. If you contact the supplier they will update the meter, though you will need a lisenced electrician to place the new box and do the rewiring into it.The other example you show is a US model, which has a single neutral and 2 phase wires. They are different to almost any other country. Here in South Africa you typically have a meter either in a box on the wall ( with a disconnector for the customer side, and a fuse at the supply point on the pole feeding it) or mounted in the kitchen next to the distribution panel ( old houses that have not been upgraded since the 1960's) with the latest being a meter on the street inside a box. Others are a prepayment meter that is 2 parts, a display and paypoint inside the house ( enter a token number on the keyboard or swipe a card) and an outdoor switch, connected by a split concentric cable of 10/16mm2, that has a pair of 0.5mm signal wires in it for the communication link.

author: notsob
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 14, 2012, 10:34:09 am
content: DylanM, the backboard is what was used to make distribution boxes approximately 60 years ago in Aus, so some of your wiring may be that old or even older. The porcelain fuses look like the ancient 'wilco' ones, as a fused circuit, each circuit was limited to 10 GPO's (GPO == General Purpose Outlet - that's your wall sockets), per fuse. I'm guessing that over the years, double GPO outlets may have been fitted, so those fuse circuits may be overloaded. With circuit breakers (instead of fuses) you are permitted more GPO's per circuit ( I think it's 20). Also, I would expect two meters to be fitted. So it would be a good idea to get a sparky in to have a look.

author: DylanM
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 14, 2012, 10:53:21 am
content: Wow, that's a lot of valuable information. Thanks for the input everybody.I think I'll just ask a sparky the same thing I always ask my hairdresser "It just needs a general cleanup"So I might forget getting a new box for now and just go with a clean up of the existing box plus some RCDs. And then in the future I might think about getting a sub-panel installed.

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 14, 2012, 10:57:45 am
content: Quote from: DylanM on November 14, 2012, 10:53:21 am

author: Gall
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 14, 2012, 11:01:50 am
content: Ok, just for fun: NOT a nice setup. WARNING: (electro)shocking content!Meet a screwdriver fuse!And more:Seriously, there are basically two approaches depending on the local regulations. One is to use a single power meter at the input and some fuses or circuit breakers. Another one is to protect every single line with its own breaker. It may be differential current breaker or, as compromise, a single differential breaker may protect a group of lines each having an individual simple breaker. Another circuit breaker is used to limit the total consumption and to manually disconnect everything in an instant in case of emergency.The rule of thumb is: the circuit breaker does not protect anything after the outlet, It protects the outlet itself and its wires. If the outlet is 16A rated, the circuit breaker should be no more than 16A regardless of how many outlets are in parallel. Thus one usually wants to have a separate breaker for every small group of outlets.It is wise (and maybe required) to have separate wires for dry and wet rooms, for outlets and light. Major appliances like refrigerator and air conditioner may have separate cables too. That all may result in a 54-module distribution box for a 2-bedroom apartment.Old-style fuses and rotary switches are generally dangerous, especially if their lifetime is exceeded. Old-style energy meters are safe but may be inaccurate.

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 14, 2012, 11:09:31 am
content: I'll have to dig up a photo I took of a nasty one in a restroom the South of Egypt.

author: GeoffS
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 14, 2012, 11:33:27 am
content: Here's another Aussie one, mine.The box outside has the meters and main fuses/switches for the heat pumps (air conditioners). The smaller pane pictured l is inside.I also have another panel and meter for the shed. It's a single 3 phase digital meter but the rest of the board is about the same vintage as DylanM's

author: GeoffS
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 14, 2012, 11:39:59 am
content: DylanM,One other thing worth noting is that the black backing board is almost certainly asbestos based. Sparkies are reluctant to work with this stuff (can't blame them) so they may call in the specialist cleanup people at an extra cost to you.

author: DylanM
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 14, 2012, 12:00:36 pm
content: Hmmm.. Are those breakers/fuses that go into the backboard removable? Like a socket-type setup? (Same as these oneshttp://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/75/Four_1_pole_circuit_breakers_fitted_in_a_meter_box.jpg). Because if they are, couldn't you just pull them out and put an RCB in it's place? Or does it simply not work like that?

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 14, 2012, 12:03:11 pm
content: No because an RCD requires connection to the neutral.

author: Sionyn
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 14, 2012, 12:21:50 pm
content: interesting how much crap contains asbestoshttp://www.aic.org.uk/Tradenames.htm