Mission critical aerospace grade PCB suppliers - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Erkel
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: June 11, 2019, 12:43:10 am
content: Hi,I am after some recommendations and peoples experience with PCB suppliers that work in the aerospace or military fields.We currently source PCB's out of China, but one particular customer has an extremely mission critical aerospace application where we want to have the best possible quality of PCB.We are finding the quality control out of asia is not really upto spec. A failure is potentially a multi million dollar loss. So we need to have confidence that the quality control is extremely tight.We are currently having to scrap most of the PCB's we are receiving as they are not meeting our quality standards.I am thinking to give Wurth a try, any thoughts?Thanks

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2019, 12:50:05 am
content: I'm not sure I'd ask on here, but am curious about any suggestions.

author: mairo
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 11, 2019, 12:03:47 pm
content: What about these guys:https://www.ttmtech.com, orhttp://www.lintek.com.auAlso, there is a company I believe in Canberra (do not remember their name on top of my head) that does mainly military work, that could be OK.https://www.hetech.com.auin Brisbane may be able to help out with sourcing the right PCBs, but you could be paying a 'middle man' for the 'help'No experience with either of them, just trowing out some names that come to mind.

author: Daixiwen
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2019, 07:55:18 am
content: We have used Systronic in France for satellite PCBs.http://www.cimulecgroup.com/en/le-groupe-cimulec/systronic.phpThose were very high quality PCBs, but the prices are not the same than in ChinaFor non space PCBs we have often used ACB in Belgium, the quality is also very high:https://www.acb.be/I have heard a lot of good things about Würth but we haven't tried them yet.

author: Ribster
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2019, 10:29:28 am
content: Quote from: Daixiwen on June 12, 2019, 07:55:18 amI see they have some ESA certification on their website from 2017.So they might be able to do space stuff too.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2019, 10:35:32 am
content: Quote from: Daixiwen on June 12, 2019, 07:55:18 amCan you say something about the pricing? I understand you may not want to give out exact numbers, but having an idea of what to expect would be good.

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2019, 12:42:21 pm
content: Offhand, Advanced Circuitswww.4pcb.comdoes mil/ITAR/whatever, probably includes space approval too?Tim

author: OwO
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2019, 12:59:53 pm
content: Quote from: Erkel on June 11, 2019, 12:43:10 amThere are so many things wrong in one post1. If a sizable portion of the PCBs you receive are failing, either you are violating DRC or the board house is trash. I have never in my life encountered a single faulty PCB, and I've used both chinese and non-chinese board houses. PCB failures is something you are basically not supposed to encounter ever.2. If a single failure means a million dollar loss, it is unthinkable to me that you would rely on the QC of an ordinary PCB fabhouse, even the top end ones. NO one will cover collateral damage without a contract (good luck getting Wurth to sign such a contract). Such things are your responsibility, and I think this question falls into the "if you have to ask..." category. If you are the most competent person in your company then I don't think your company is prepared to take on such a project (that is the polite version).

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2019, 01:07:52 pm
content: Just because they aren't going to put their money where their mouth is insuring yourentire freaking missionon account of their one part, doesn't mean they can't provide a meaningfully lower risk, through whatever means are applicable (e.g., higher spec materials, better bake-out, better inspection, mechanical tests, temp cycle tests..).Tim

author: Daixiwen
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2019, 07:33:45 am
content: For the space PCB it was a bit under 2000 € for the tooling plus two prototype PCBs (8 layers, polymide 1.6mm, 10*10 cm, no solder mask, no silkscreen).For ACB I don't have the details here, I only have the offer for the fully populated circuit. But if I remember correctly it was around 200-300 € per PCB for small series, 12 layers, FR4, 8*12 cm. The price was high because it was a very dense PCB (class 12, some places had less than 60 µm clearance). They get cheaper if you have a more reasonable clearance. This PCB didn't have microvias or burried vias, but had vias in pads. The price is so much dependant on what you want that it's better to ask them with your design files.

author: ejeffrey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 17, 2019, 05:32:29 pm
content: Quote from: Erkel on June 11, 2019, 12:43:10 amI've used TTM and Advanced circuits for extremely high spec / tight tolerance things.QuoteWhat exactly is wrong? Are you talking cosmetic, performance (impedance tolerance) or gross functional problems like shorts/opens? Have you talked to your boardhouse about this? Asian boardhouses are definitely *capable* of providing very high quality PCBs (look at smartphones for instance). Not every one does of course, but you may find that you are just not communicating your expectations properly.Quote from: OwOThat depends on what you are doing. For small standard process boards that is true. However if you do weird things, the fab house may not have good design rules. I had a project with a very large board (16 inches) with a weird stackup where we got one batch that had terrible drill alignment that was breaking out of the annular rings. The problem was that slightly non-uniform shrinkage during curing caused the alignment to drift across the board. They simply hadn't made boards like that before, and their standard annular ring tolerances were too tight. This sort of thing happens. They worked with us to figure out how to improve it (changed the material to one with better dimensional accuracy and increased annular rings) and reran the fab.

author: m98
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 17, 2019, 08:57:05 pm
content: You can take a look athttps://fineline-global.com, they will get you any quantity of any PCB technology manufactured to any standard you want.And then there'shttps://de.beta-layout.com/, they're an approved supplier for a few big space/defense companies, and are not only used for prototypes.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 17, 2019, 09:48:14 pm
content: I thought you needed special resins in the pcb substrates for space due to the vacuum resulting in outgassing. Can't recall where I read this.

author: m98
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 17, 2019, 10:03:22 pm
content: Quote from: Kjelt on June 17, 2019, 09:48:14 pmMost FR4-Materials perform quite well in terms of outgassing and longevity for space applications. Probably won't find much on a deep-space probe, but especially the Nano-Satellites use it extensively.

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 17, 2019, 10:16:00 pm
content: Of course, cube and nano sats aren't intended for long mission lives, and they're far cheaper to launch, and more numerous. So using lower reliability materials is quite justified.Tim

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2019, 12:33:37 am
content: It also depends on what you're trying to do. A common communications satellite can probably deal with a bit of outgassing, but deep space probes are typically littered with sensors easily thrown off by a thin film of molecules. Smaller probes aren't expected to live long enough for it to be an issue.Perhaps surprisingly outgassing is also a concern inside the ISS due to volatile compounds being recirculated and building up over time.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 18, 2019, 12:38:11 am
content: Quote from: OwO on June 12, 2019, 12:59:53 pmNot passing QC and failing are two very different things.

author: eV1Te
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2019, 03:41:51 pm
content: Quote from: Kjelt on June 17, 2019, 09:48:14 pmAs some others have already said, FR4 can be acceptable. For deep space stuff (for example orbiting Saturn) the company I work for has made components (not PCBs) in PTFE (or similar grades such as FEP, PFA, ETFE). I know some PCB fabs that can make boards with PTFE substrates, not sure if that is for space applications or just general high temperature, low leakage.Another issue is the radiation. Some plastics will degrade over time due to the increased radiation in space. PTFE works fine, but I am not sure about regular FR4 though (especially for deep space long lifetime missions).The company I work for also makes components that go inside nuclear reactors, there PTFE does not work because the radiation is too high (many orders of magnitude higher than space)! Material such as PEEK or Polyimide (Kapton) works very well in such environments, we even guarantee 60+ year lifetime dose + hypothetical meltdown dose of radiation for some products.But these materials absorb some small amount of water, hence for critical space missions they need to be baked/dried at higher temperature to prevent outgassing, hence they are only used for space applications when really required.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2019, 04:46:41 pm
content: Quote from: eV1Te on June 18, 2019, 03:41:51 pmInteresting that all kinds of factors come into play with extreme conditions such as space and high radiation environments. I can imagine that for an application environment such as space you rather go for the best prooven solution than try something a bit cheaper and we'll see what happens over time.Thanks for sharing.