What if Dave were transported to 1890? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Galenbo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 20, 2014, 12:24:06 pm
content: What if Dave were transported to 1890?A 3-phase AC generator and motor was just developed, lamps and primitive batteries also existed.How long would it take to develop the first transistor? radio? processor? cell phone?How to proceed? How to find the necessary materials? How to deal with many chicken-egg situations?Given reasonable budgets and no obstructions like religion or politics, how would 1900 look like?

author: dexters_lab
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 20, 2014, 12:56:16 pm
content: i have often wondered similar...if the global population was transported to a new world like the earth with all our knowledge but with no tools, materials... not even paper or writing instruments etc how quickly would we progress back to our current levels of tech?

author: nihilism
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 20, 2014, 01:02:49 pm
content: Depends. Do we have to take everyone or can we leave the idiots and assholes behind?

author: dr.diesel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 20, 2014, 01:07:30 pm
content: Quote from: nihilism on February 20, 2014, 01:02:49 pmGood idea, restart life without Democrats.

author: ahnuts72
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 20, 2014, 01:18:16 pm
content: Or Republicans

author: dexters_lab
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 20, 2014, 01:57:10 pm
content: they should be included in the Ark Fleet, Ship B...

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 20, 2014, 04:25:33 pm
content: Dave is an electronics engineer, not a semiconductor physicist.No offence intended to Dave, but I do not think he could make a practical transistor except possibly suggesting a theory of operation to someone already in the field.He could try making a transistor like Jeri Ellsworth did, p-channel MOSFET I believe?

author: Rigby
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 20, 2014, 04:42:46 pm
content: Quote from: ahnuts72 on February 20, 2014, 01:18:16 pmSeconded. Actually, not any particular party, just those that base their decisions on what they're told to think, rather than thinking for themselves. This will eliminate almost all of the waste that we speak about when we say "leave the democrats" or "leave the republicans." I know plenty of both party who gleefully toe their party line, quoting the talking points word for word, rather than spending a small amount of effort to actually think about what they're being fed. Conservative leadership treats it too much like a game, and prefer victory over all else, and Liberals don't treat it enough like a game, arguing with themselves endlessly about what a game actually is and who had the rulebook last.Back on topic!I think that technology could very quickly ramp back up to where we are now, or very close, within just a couple of decades. All of the back-end infrastructure and tooling that supports the manufacturing processes needs to be set up first, but now we know very well how to do that, and we know very well where to find the resources. Fortunately, that stuff is fairly well understood by many, and could be very quickly established again.Dave would be schooling Tesla and Edison on quite a few things. They would fall to the side as Dave's mysterious knowledge of the unknown, coupled with his demeanor, would spook the hell out of everyone. Fortunately the world was not as skeptical as it is today, and we would be in awe of his phenomenal knowledge. We would be furiously searching for the origins of his knowledge and the accent that contemporary Australia would not recognize as their own.It would be cool to see.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 20, 2014, 04:48:41 pm
content: Quote from: dr.diesel on February 20, 2014, 01:07:30 pmQuote from: ahnuts72 on February 20, 2014, 01:18:16 pmOr americans... (mandatory smiley not to offend anyone even if you are serious)Dave would need to reinvent youtube first, then prevent WW1, not transistors and stuff.

author: Rigby
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 20, 2014, 04:57:35 pm
content: Quote from: NANDBlog on February 20, 2014, 04:48:41 pmBefore YouTube would be World Wide Web, Internet, DNS, TCP/IP, Ethernet, Ethernet switches/hubs, servers, home computers, video codecs, and so on.Stopping WWI would be a lot harder than that. He'd have to be DEEP in several European monarchies at the same time to prevent WWI, if I remember my history correctly, which I probably don't.Oh you were joking weren't you? Damn. Well I'll leave that up there since I typed it already.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 20, 2014, 05:02:01 pm
content: Quote from: dr.diesel on February 20, 2014, 01:07:30 pmInternal quarrels on an international forum are not cool. The US haters do not distinguish between democrats and republicans.

author: MatCat
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 20, 2014, 05:05:47 pm
content: I have thought long and hard on the concept of what happens when Humanity loses it's knowledge, the cold hard reality is it would only take a few generations for us to be back in the stone age. Destroy the internet, and lose most of the books and it's game over for a while. Could an EE going back in time make a difference? Yeah it could at 1890, but like previously stated you aren't going to have the ability to fab semiconductors, nor the knowledge even to do it yourself from scratch. Not to mention the tooling which requires other technologies not yet invented.

author: 6E5
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 20, 2014, 05:11:25 pm
content: If he was, I'm pretty sure that the vacuum tube era could be bypassed entirely. In a few years he could build something similar to the 1947 point junction transistor, provided he had the funds. To impress others he could invent the modern AC induction motor before tesla, develop an improved electric record player, and invent the speaker and sound system. With the transistor he could have developed the superhet and other radio technologies by around the same time, maybe 1910's, get TV by the 20's (provided he develops the CRT) However, I think, without modern semiconductor factories, he would find it next to impossible to get to the IC era, or at least, a modern CPU before the 50's.

author: dr.diesel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 20, 2014, 05:12:29 pm
content: Quote from: zapta on February 20, 2014, 05:02:01 pmI don't either, Democrats are just easier to make fun of, hence the.Dave would be too busy being a billionaire, correctly predicting events, stock market, sporting events etc. Electronics would likely be the last thing on his mind, too hard to feed his family attempting to bring future electronics way too early.Mmmm, however, I couldn't even tell you who won the last superbowl. Guess I'd die hungry not knowing how to farm.

author: N2IXK
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 20, 2014, 05:22:15 pm
content: Quote from: 6E5 on February 20, 2014, 05:11:25 pmDoubtful.Production of high purity germanium and silicon crystals would have been impossible without big honking vacuum tubes powering the induction heaters used in crystal pulling furnaces.

author: KedasProbe
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 20, 2014, 05:30:37 pm
content: Similar question: You are transported back but with all important information on an external hard drive with USB connection. How long before it drives you crazy?(or how long before you are locked up by 'national security' because you own some strange alien device)

author: lapm
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 20, 2014, 05:52:02 pm
content: Personally i think 1890 would not be that bad.Acording to wikipedia in 1890 us start firs sensus with puch card computer...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tabulating_machineSo not that badly behind current tech. Most we have now is just smaller and more energy efficient. Vacuum tubes were invented arround that time..And since electricity exists im sure you could build a lot of things we call modern... After all time traveler would have one huge benefit. He knows all ready that something can be built and how it supposedly works.. And regarding to semiconductor makeing, well you know its bossible and probably approximate how... So first transistors would be invented about 50-60 years earlier...

author: N2IXK
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 20, 2014, 06:02:59 pm
content: "Edison Effect" (aka thermionic emission) discovered--1880Fleming's Valve (diode vacuum tube) invented--1904Deforest's "Audion" (triode vacuum tube) invented--1906

author: johansen
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 20, 2014, 06:05:47 pm
content: Write a book about who started WWI, get it published in 1890.it took a while to find a mineral that would dissolve aluminum oxide.. you have time to bring cheap aluminum to the table 30? years ahead of schedual.electrical steel would have a tremendous impact.. it was pretty common to run transformers and motors at .6T and below.. today we manage 1.3T for motors and 1.9T for transformers.. so you could have a big impact on the electrical industry pretty early.electrowinning copper was very expensive, electricity was 10 cents per KWH in 1900.. so anything to reduce the cost of electricity would have tremendous impact.i would suggest stopping WWI, but it takes millions of man-years to start wars.

author: G7PSK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 20, 2014, 06:20:49 pm
content: The technology that existed in the late 1890's early 1900's was such that Dave would be able to produce a crude A bomb for delivery by large naval guns, and thus become world ruler. He could then start from there.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 20, 2014, 06:26:24 pm
content: There is a book about it.....http://www.baenebooks.com/chapters/0671578499/0671578499.htm?blurbQuite worth a read, and the whole series and associated novels is quite good as well.

author: Rigby
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 20, 2014, 06:33:43 pm
content: Quote from: MatCat on February 20, 2014, 05:05:47 pmYeah, of course. Our knowledge and our ability to create new knowledge is really the only thing separating us from other apes. You can word that differently and choose different adjectives, but it's our will to advance and learn, and our curiosity that really makes us who we are as a race. The rest of it is really vestigial stuff left over from evolution.

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 20, 2014, 07:59:07 pm
content: Even with semiconductor knowledge, I don't think the chemical techniques were available to produce that sort of thing. Analytical chemistry has long been big on precision, separation and purification, but there was absolutely nothing that needed more than 4n (99.99%) purity, and that was mostly... precious metals like gold? The semiconductor industry completely drove demand for high purity materials and processing.Germanium was discovered in 1886, so there'snocommercial supply of the stuff anywhere. You have to make it yourself if you want any, and you need to do a damned good job at it. That's not so much difficult as tedious -- given enough ore, reagents and time, but needless to say, taking years out of your life to make a few ounces of the stuff puts a big hamper on any kind of development you can do with it. (On the upside, if you can get a university to do it, you can do some more analyses on the stuff, publish a bunch of papers about it and secure your tenure. If you're into that sort of thing.)Scientists had already played with semiconductors like selenium, copper oxide and so on and made some strange observations, but they weren't repeatable, let alone practical. The theoretical knowledge wasn't available to help, either: statistical mechanics was still growing, and quantum mechanics was only being hinted at.As both a technological stepping stone and an achievable goal, I think vacuum tubes are a required milestone. If you're familiar with the devices and construction methods common from the '40s on, I think you could easily advance electronic history by two or three decades. But remember also, it's not simply knowing something. Suppose you managed to more-or-less reconstruct a 12AX7 and a 6L6 by 1900 (a good 40 years early). You've enlisted the help of all the top analytical chemists and industrial engineers you can find -- and this is assuming you've gotten to a big city and earned the patronage of a sufficiently large company (like GE or IBM) to hire these eggheads and pay for materials and lab equipment. It means nothing until there's a market to sell them, and the parts are in production, at high yield. And in order to establish a market, it's not your knowledge that matters, but everyone else's: consider, the virtues of negative feedback weren't widely understood until the '20s! Radio was just beginning to enter the home then, mainly as a luxury. Radio was in fairly wide use for maritime communications (even the Titanic had an early... spark gap set, was it?), but that's high cost low volume specialty equipment -- also with a long development cycle because they'll want it reliable as well (or, as reliable as can be made; I can't imagine those spark gaps and coherers were all that reliable at their best).There's also the matter of geography; I'm not big on Australian history, but they started out as, eh, colonies of dubious purpose, just a few decades before, right? Even in the large port cities, I would guess there were a lot of things in the world which rarely if ever found their way there. So if we assume Dave remains in roughly the same geographic area, there's that. If he is instead transported to a random location as well during this trip through time, who knows... the U.S. "wild west" was still being tamed in the 1890s (think BTTF, if not exactly a historical documentary). On the other hand, big old cities like New York, London, Paris or Berlin (to name just a few) would've held all the current to advanced technology we read about in the history books.Tim

author: Rigby
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 20, 2014, 08:18:37 pm
content: Quote from: T3sl4co1l on February 20, 2014, 07:59:07 pmYes, but you must be willing to admit that Dave's knowledge would speed things up greatly, even if Dave didn't have the ability to personally do it all.New South Wales (where Dave is) stopped being accepting new prisoners in about 1850 if memory serves, and for a long while before that, voluntary immigrants outnumbered prisoners in terms of the numbers that arrived in Australia each year. Dave arriving in 1890 as a 40-something dude would not be easily mistaken as a prisoner.If I were sent back to 1890 the very first thing I would do is invent the airplane. It's an easy enough endeavor that it could be done within a year if one had any understanding of aerodynamics and any mechanical inclination at all. I wouldn't patent it, I wouldn't protect it in any way, I'd just get it done a bit sooner and have some fun.

author: dfmischler
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 20, 2014, 08:39:22 pm
content: The field effect transistor was patented in 1926 by Julius Edgar Lilienfeld.But there weren't any applications for a long time, possibly due to inadequate theory.

author: IanJ
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 20, 2014, 09:08:44 pm
content: Dave in the 1890's.................easy!

author: jpb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 20, 2014, 09:38:39 pm
content: I am impressed by prisoners-of-war in WWII who managed to build themselves radios with very little - using a lump of coal and a sprung wire for a diode and so on. They still needed high impedance phones though.In 1890 a big problem would be insulation without decent plastic, they had bakalite I think (I've spelt that wrong probably). Semiconductors would be out but they probably had good enough vacuum technology to build valves.There was quite a fun programme on UK TV a few years ago in which a bunch of scientists/engineers were dumped on an island and had to build themselves high tech stuff out of what they could find (they were set problems such as finding the latitude and longitude of the island).

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 20, 2014, 09:39:16 pm
content: Quote from: dr.diesel on February 20, 2014, 01:07:30 pmOr more importantly, without religion.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 20, 2014, 09:43:20 pm
content: It would take a long time, many many decades. Probably half the time it took before might be a reasonable first guess.Getting to the stage of manufacturing semiconductors again for example requires the building of massive infrastructures and other technology first.

author: Rigby
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 20, 2014, 09:46:19 pm
content: Quote from: dfmischler on February 20, 2014, 08:39:22 pmthat patent should probably have never been granted. It was entirely theory and had no working model. It wasn't even possible to implement a FET at the time that patent was granted. It probably expired before it was possible to make a FET.

author: babysitter
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 20, 2014, 09:51:30 pm
content: +1 at no religion.Dave should go to a certain nice wild west village in 1885, visit the blacksmith there !

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 20, 2014, 09:59:06 pm
content: Quote from: jpb on February 20, 2014, 09:38:39 pmThe 19th century had a lot of those sorts of resources, if you were in the right places. Faraday made his own insulated wire by wrapping it with linen or thread! Vacuum was being played with, and if you can convince someone to make a mercury diffusion pump (which should do well enough, unless you want to synthesize or purify your own vacuum oil!), you can easily achieve the hard vacuum required. Sir Humphrey Davy even isolated alkaline earth metals, so you can install a lump of the stuff for getter! Tungsten wire hadn't quite taken off yet, but the development of things I think would put some pressure on that.So, going back further, say to the 1850s, though being specific about the place -- say, London; you could very well do some significant advances on tech. There was even an existing market: telegraph networks, needing repeaters, amplifiers, that sort of thing; and later, telephone. The quality of amplifier wouldn't need to be much (the Audion was pretty weak by later standards), just that it exists at all would be sufficient.That at least seems to me like one of the biggest advances a single person, in the right place, could introduce. Later works (like semiconductors) depend on many things being established already, and even if you're very knowledgeable about the subject, theoretically and in practice, there's so much you'd have to do to be able to implement these things. So it starts taking teams of people, learned in their respective subjects, to start something from the ground up like that.Perhaps an even more dramatic advance could be seen in the century before that; suppose Sir Henry Bessemer, having developed his Converter, was transported back to the 18th century. Plenty of steelmaking was going on, but the sheer industrialization wasn't there yet to inspire something so grand.Tim

author: Neilm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 20, 2014, 10:17:09 pm
content: Quote from: jpb on February 20, 2014, 09:38:39 pmhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rough_ScienceMy lasting memories from that series were some of the ways the scientists worked out (and bodged) some of the tools they needed, using bits of junk around. Not to mention Kate Humble (the presenter) in a wetsuit...

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 21, 2014, 12:28:34 am
content: Quote from: 6E5 on February 20, 2014, 05:11:25 pmThe Superhet already existed by 1910,TV was well on the way by the 1920's.The 50 years between 1890 & 1940 saw a Tsunami of Technological innovation that we are still riding.Don't knock the vacuum tube---all the circuit theory you use to analyse Semiconductor amplifiers,etc wasdeveloped for these devices.

author: Phaedrus
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 21, 2014, 12:54:33 am
content: Superhet wasn't invented until 1918

author: 6E5
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 21, 2014, 02:20:59 am
content: Quote from: Phaedrus on February 21, 2014, 12:54:33 amYup, 1918 by Edwin Armstrong. But, the regenerative circuit was around about a decade before. I wouldn't dream of knocking vacuum tubes, they're my pride and joy! Plus, I'd think you'd break them...

author: 6E5
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 21, 2014, 02:29:05 am
content: Quote from: babysitter on February 20, 2014, 09:51:30 pmDave needs to be careful. You know he can never resist when someone calls him chicken."JONES, It's 8 o clock! And I'm calling you out!"Tannon, I forfeit!"FORFEIT?uh what does that mean...."

author: pickle9000
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 21, 2014, 02:50:04 am
content: If he was transported, would he get to come back? I don't really want the YT channel to shut down.

author: Galenbo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 21, 2014, 12:06:32 pm
content: Quote from: N2IXK on February 20, 2014, 06:02:59 pmI chose 1890 for this topic, because this seemed to me a period where things became possible.1904 is 14 years from 1890, maybe with knowledge of "existable mechanisms" it could be done in 2 years?

author: Galenbo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 21, 2014, 12:12:14 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on February 20, 2014, 04:25:33 pmThe "To be transported" guy I intended, was "someone who has practical knowledge of science/technics/earth/..."Sure nobody covers it all, but the one who really wants, and knows it's possible?

author: Galenbo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 21, 2014, 12:20:59 pm
content: Quote from: N2IXK on February 20, 2014, 05:22:15 pmI also think not many things can be bypassed. Everything on how to develop USB sticks was stored on huge harddrives and diskettes.

author: johnwa
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 21, 2014, 12:36:16 pm
content: Quote from: Neilm on February 20, 2014, 10:17:09 pmCurse you! There go my chances of getting anything productive done this weekend!Attention, if you have any important jobs that need doing soon, definitely don't click on the following link:.Regarding the technological bootstrapping problem, it is always an interesting problem to contemplate, but the answer depends heavily on the constraints placed on the exercise. For instance, you won't be able to do much electronics without any wire, but there is a lot of technology required to go from digging ore out of the ground, to a fine, insulated wire. I guess you really need to look at significant inventions and discoveries from all fields, not just a particular one like electronics.EDIT: Saucepan variable capacitors FTW!

author: deth502
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 21, 2014, 01:08:33 pm
content: Quote from: pickle9000 on February 21, 2014, 02:50:04 amrelax, its just a hypothetical question. dave is not really going to go back in time.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2014, 01:29:45 am
content: Quote from: 6E5 on February 21, 2014, 02:20:59 amYep,you're right--I didn't check.Being 140 years old,it gets a bit hard to remember just when that young whippersnapper Armstrong invented those things!In my opinion,this newfangled "Wireless" will never replace the Heliograph!

author: TerraHertz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2014, 08:18:52 am
content: Two big questions that would be critical for the outcome:1. Would he have adequate warning before being sent back? Time enough to study the problem beforehand, research, decide on a strategy, read up on details of technological advances he could realistically introduce. Is he allowed to take back books or other materials?2. Startup funds & camouflage? If you just dumped him somewhere in the English countryside in shorts, t-shirt and thongs, he'd probably end up dead or locked away in a lunatic asylum pretty quickly. A bag of gold sovereigns would make a huge difference. Some elocution and accent training wouldn't hurt either.There's a fun and somewhat related time-travel novel: The Strange Affair of Spring Heeled Jack by Mark Hodder.http://www.amazon.com/Strange-Affair-Spring-Heeled-Swinburne/dp/1616142405That's set mostly around 1861 though.

author: johansen
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2014, 06:52:16 pm
content: Quote from: TerraHertz on February 22, 2014, 08:18:52 amthat's just a matter of time, bag of gold sovereigns or not...

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 22, 2014, 07:17:44 pm
content: Quote from: Rigby on February 20, 2014, 04:42:46 pmGiven the differences in human rights of the day, they might dissect him

author: XynxNet
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2014, 10:06:53 pm
content: Tooling up would be a major problem and take decades.It's all about materials science. That doesn't only include what to produce but also the production process and how to scale it up in a cost effective way.Even today with all our analytic tools, there are for example steel companies producing special alloys which still could not be copied by others.

author: Galenbo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2014, 01:03:35 pm
content: Quote from: TerraHertz on February 22, 2014, 08:18:52 amI would say, medium for both questions. 3 days preparation, takes 1kg of gold coins with him, doen't get robbed, killed, but has no fanbase either.