FLIR - Interesting dual FOV thermal camera on eBay. Save me from myself ! - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2021, 03:22:53 pm
content: There is an interesting FLIR thermal imaging camera on ebay at the moment in an auction that has 6 days to run.The seller has already sold three others and says this is the last unit.So why is it interesting ?1. It is a thermal imaging camera module designed to be integrated into a larger housing such as found in surveillance and military applications. As such it is beautifully made.2. It appears to be an uncooled microbolometer design and I suspect it shares its microbolometer type with those of the venerable PM series that I love so much.3. The front lens is slightly pitted from weathering but nothing too serious.4. Now the killer feature .... this camera appears to be DUAL FIELD OF VIEW ! That is to say, it has a set of lenses that provide a 20 Degree FOV and a second set of lenses that rotate into position between the first set to provide an optical Zoom function. In this case I believe the Zoom is X4 to provide a 5 Degree FOV. Such a capability on a thermal camera is expensive so relatively rare in units found on the secondary market. The camera also likely has electronic zoom to further enhance its zoom capabilities.5. The camera appears to be very modular with the optical zoom section demountable from the microbolometer/electronics section6. The camera is likely, but not confirmed, to be a QVGA unit as such was common at the time of its likely build.7. This would have been a very expensive and capable thermal imaging surveillance cameraSo am I sure about all of the above..... in a word..... nope. I am working purely from my previous knowledge of similar cameras from FLIR and what I can see in the auction pictures of the camera and previous units sold by the seller. One example was damaged and missing its front and zoom lens elements so i could see the internal lens designIs the camera complete and easy to get running ? Sorry, no idea as I am not the seller and have nothing to do with the auction. The camera is sold as untested so Caveat Emptor. There is always the risk that the camera was 'decommissioned' before disposal or parts robbed from it. Even if complete, I do not have any information on the camera or its I/O connector so do not expect me to be able to help get it going. The Zoom lens content is worth what these cameras have been selling for though !So why am I posting about this camera instead of buying it ? Well in the past I would likely have remained quiet about such a nice camera and added it to my collection. Times have changed and I am sworn off of spending more money on my thermal camera collection. In fact, quite the opposite, I will be selling some of my thermal cameras and downsizing my collection as you can only use so many thermal cameras and I have a lot of money invested in them ! I will not bid on this camera but hope someone on this forum does buy it as I would love to know more about it.I will attach the pictures of the camera from the auction plus those of the cameras the seller has already sold. Most interesting is the damaged camera with no front lens. If you study the interior you will see the lens holder frame that rotates 90 degrees into the optical path when the Zoom mode is selected. It appears to be moved into position using a quadrant gear at the top of the housing. The camera module may be seen at the rear of the lens housing. It would appear that the damaged unit was robbed of its lenses so any potential buyer of the camera currently on offer may wish to ask the seller to check that the lens assembly is complete.Would it be easy to return this camera to service ? Sorry no idea. You are on your own there. one of these cameras previously sold for under £170 so, if complete, they are a bargain in my opinion.Remember, buying kit like this is a calculated risk. I used to do it for fun and was rarely unhappy with what I boughtThe Auction:https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/FLIR-Thermal-Digital-Camera/124576469717?_trkparms=aid%3D111001%26algo%3DREC.SEED%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20160908105057%26meid%3D629c355e214948c0b852323cc609abe7%26pid%3D100675%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D15%26mehot%3Dnone%26sd%3D124565198280%26itm%3D124576469717%26pmt%3D0%26noa%3D1%26pg%3D2380057%26brand%3DFlir&_trksid=p2380057.c100675.m4236&_trkparms=pageci%3Af47b8802-712f-11eb-ae91-52c8affb1681%7Cparentrq%3Ab07bb9471770ad4ef71747f9ffd4b6fa%7Ciid%3A1As already stated, I have no connection with this seller, the auction or this item.Fraser

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2021, 03:25:13 pm
content: The damaged camera that sold for £40. It likely still had a functioning camera core in it but no lenses. Bargain !

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2021, 03:26:47 pm
content: Previously sold camera 1

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2021, 03:29:53 pm
content: Previously sold camera 2....

author: Vipitis
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2021, 03:41:07 pm
content: if you are saying this is likely a QVGA core; the image circle can't be that great in the end. As I have been keeping my eye on ebay every few days looking for anything thermal camera (just on ebay.de) as well as vintage c mount lenses for other stuff - I haven't come across another fantastic bargain yet. Given that this is still days out and has shipping costs attached to it; I see it more as getting a lens out of this. I need image circles of 21mm and more, which usually means older cameras.

author: Bill W
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2021, 04:10:13 pm
content: QVGA maybe, but at what pixel pitch ?50µm is getting close with a 20mm diagonal.Depends how good you need the illumination / distortion in the corners

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2021, 06:19:26 pm
content: I have confirmed that the camera came out of a military system so will use very high specification parts if my previous experience of Military FLIR products is anything to go by. The unit was mounted along side a CCTV visible light camera and was a surveillance system. The seller has also been selling the CCTV camera assemblies in his auctions.I believe the microbolometer will be a 320 x 240 pixel array dating back to the late 1990’s and will employ 50um pixels. I say this only because similar FLIR units that I have worked on used this microbolometer, as found on the FLIR PM570. I could easily be wrong though.Fraser

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2021, 06:33:18 pm
content: I have been talking to the seller. He is a really nice chap but information on the camera is limited. I cannot establish a build date so cannot be more certain on the electronics package used within the camera. In days gone by I would have just bought the unit ‘blind’ and reverse engineered the interface to determine whether it could be returned to operation. Sadly these days I am not so adventurous.Fraser

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2021, 08:29:10 pm
content: This UC624 imaging core from FLIR in 2004 looks similarhttps://web.archive.org/web/20040204090312/http://www.flir.com/imaging/OEMModules/Products/ThermovisionUC624.aspxFraser

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2021, 08:50:01 pm
content: Here we go... circa 2007.... the uc-520 is a match to the auction corehttps://web.archive.org/web/20070324003257/http://www.flir.com/imaging/OEMModules/Products/UC520.aspxA surprise.... it contains an Indigo Photon Core !Fraser

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2021, 08:53:24 pm
content: The cores brochure is attached......With a Photon core inside, it should be possible to get this core running without too much effortFraser

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2021, 09:00:46 pm
content: The UC520 is stated as being auto focus and requires just RS232 plus power to drive it. The connector presents composite video output. The Photon core GUI may be directly compatible with the UC520 ?This is a great little camera, I wish I could buy it but it is not to beI must remain strong and resist it !Fraser

author: svgurus
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2021, 10:11:31 pm
content: Quote from: Vipitis on February 17, 2021, 03:41:07 pm21mm is huuge, 17µm vga is less than 14. You will invest in big lenses and wont use them fully after further upgrades. And not sure lenses will be cheap, some folks put price lenses with conventional mount according to size) kinda good news - one guy is selling old 25µm vga core(about 20mm diameter) from Xenics in Moscow, it costs about 1100 euros, kinda good for 30hz. Not sure you will be able to deliver it through/avoiding customs, but description might be useful anyway)https://www.avito.ru/moskva/audio_i_video/modul_teplovizionnyy_640x480_xenics_2016579827Frasers ebay found might be a steal if you could replace the core) zoom/focus is quite likely mechanically controlled, saw some folks make Thermal-eye 250D 100mm lens focus manually just by adding a knob, initially it was AF

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2021, 10:33:53 pm
content: Further information on the core being sold in the auction..... it was removed from its original casing by the seller and was not ‘deactivated’ by him so hopefully it will be completeI advise caution if you are interested but outside the UK. This is Ex military hardware and can be subject to export licence requirements due to its capabilities and original deployment.Fraser

author: Vipitis
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2021, 11:32:09 pm
content: I will think about this for the remaining days, as I am importing (beyond EU borders now -.-) it could be an issue. I am only in it for the lens and might have a chance to resell the core (or keep if it easily work). As those are 5° and 20° fovs, I expect that is horizontal field of view which would mean like 40mm and 160mm focal lengths for ~20mm image circle.As I have 25µm VGA and 35µm QVGA cores to use with, a 50µ QVGA made lens should do it just fine. I will try to guess the size of that large front element by looking at the various images provided.Having a larger lens collection that just the 32mm and 150mm with something like a dual fov lens would be great. I also have some smaller lenses and a few spare elements already - but to combine it all into useful lenses that can be focused and mounted to the same core will be a longer project I might need professional help with.E: the brochure is archived in the archive linked, it's f/1.44

author: Ultrapurple
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2021, 09:15:39 am
content: Well, I bid on it - and was astonished to see the price nearly triple in the last few seconds. Congratulations to whoever bought it; it looks like a very interesting piece of kit. Thanks Fraser for spotting it.

author: CJay
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2021, 10:26:51 am
content: He's got some interesting stuff, the 'Unknown manufacturer' camera with what looks like an N type connector for instance...

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2021, 11:26:35 am
content: The “Unknown Camera” was the visible light partner to the dual field of view thermal camera in its original deployment. It is a military camera and these commonly use high quality connectors that are weather proof. I own a couple of these cylindrical long range military cameras. They often have sophisticated CCD cameras in them but sadly the control protocol is proprietary and, as far as I know, not in the public domain.Fraser

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2021, 11:29:31 am
content: The dual FOV camera sold for the right money considering its unknown operational state and its dual view Germanium lens. It is a very nice camera that in years gone by I would have bought without hesitation. The person who bought the other examples from the seller got a bargain IMHO.Fraser

author: CJay
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2021, 11:39:37 am
content: Ahh, makes sense now, it's obviously very high quality, O-Ring seals, heavy duty frame, the two multi-pin connectors look to be aerospace/military grade.Worth a punt just for a teardown I think, the lens mount looks to be C or CS so the lens and control assembly itself would be fun to add to a 'standard' camera.

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 01, 2021, 08:43:38 pm
content: The camera is available again.Apparently the wining bidder was in Germany and the seller refused to ship to Germany due to the items sensitivities. Currently at £160 with 3 bids on it. I will not be bidding on this camera and have no association with it or the seller.https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/FLIR-Thermal-Digital-Camera/124602086698?_trkparms=aid%3D111001%26algo%3DREC.SEED%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20160908105057%26meid%3D91613dcdcfa847f086e6dba3b571d0e0%26pid%3D100675%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D15%26mehot%3Dnone%26sd%3D124602086698%26itm%3D124602086698%26pmt%3D0%26noa%3D1%26pg%3D2380057%26brand%3DFlir&_trksid=p2380057.c100675.m4236&_trkparms=pageci%3A6ff79428-7ace-11eb-88a2-e2dee41e9eaa%7Cparentrq%3Aef85d90b1770ada5d50b8058fffe70a8%7Ciid%3A1Fraser

author: Ultrapurple
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 09, 2021, 10:49:04 am
content: I am pleased to report that not only has Fraser been saved from himself, the camera is now safely re-homed into the hands of a Forum member.

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 09, 2021, 11:44:53 am
content: Ultrapurple,Thank you for saving me from the temptation to buy yet another thermal camera that I truly do not ‘need’I am pleased that the camera has gone to a good home with a forum member. From what I understand, three of these cameras are now in the hands of forum members so hopefully we will hear more about the design in the future.I have some documentation and the GUI for the Photon core that is apparently in the rear of the camera module so I can provide such if needed. I am hopeful that the Photon is a standard firmware build so that the GUI will work. The lens control was likely an external system so focus and FOV will have to be operated manually unless the controller can be replicated. I believe these were auto focus units.I will continue to highlight auctions for nice cameras I find on eBay as it seems the only way to stop me buying them myself !Fraser

author: bap2703
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 09, 2021, 12:26:55 pm
content: Can't wait to see a teardown or it in action

author: Ultrapurple
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 09, 2021, 05:04:06 pm
content: Well, I haven't managed to have a proper look at it yet but I have opened it up and taken some quick snapshots.All the casework is milled from solid billet and made to a very high standard. No wonder these cameras were expensive.Underneath the camera is an inch-deep box with a D-connector jutting out. That's the only external connector. Opening the base reveals quite a lot of circuitry on several boards.The optical section splits into two: the lens assembly and the sensor assembly. The latter is fixed to the inch-thick box mentioned earlier. The lens assembly has a D-connector that marries up with another on the sensor assembly. A jumper cable would be required to run the camera 'open' - but there wouldn't be much point, as the sensor would have no optics in front of it...Anyway, on to the photos. As I said, these are just a quick and dirty initial look-see.

author: Ultrapurple
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 09, 2021, 05:31:32 pm
content: Re-reading the brochure that Fraser so kindly located and uploaded, it seems that maybe all I need to to is frighten the thing with 12V and I'll get analogue video out. How about that?Looking at the main electronics assemblies there appear to be four 16C550 UARTs and four LT1381 RS-232 driver/receivers, so identifying the serial connection(s) shouldn't be too hard. Likewise, the larger PCB that's visible is clearly a power supply board, so it should be easy enough to work out where to apply volts. As for the video output - well, analogue video probably won't be too much of a challenge to spot.Rather than dive into all this though, my first move has to be to ask if anyone has got any technical data, pinouts and/or command set info for these beasties?

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 09, 2021, 06:05:30 pm
content: Ultrapurple,That is not what I was expecting to see inside this camera ! This looks more like the PCB’s in the AGEMA/FLIR PM series cameras. Even the PCB naming convention looks the same (RIPO2, RISL 2). There is nothing there that looks like it came from an Indigo Photon core. This may be a previous version of the camera module to that for which I found the datasheet.The unit exudes high quality as found in the Industrial PM series cameras and the lens assembly will likely be very high quality as well.Sadly I do not recognise any of the PCB’s in your pictures so cannot give you a steer on the pin outs or command protocol used. When we look at the chipset I may be able to ascertain whether this camera is based on one of the FLIR Industrial models that I have worked on. If so, it’s command set may be more AGEMA-FLIR than Indigo-FLIRFraser

author: Ultrapurple
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 09, 2021, 06:17:49 pm
content: Thanks Fraser - very interesting indeed. The plot thickens, as they say!One gratifying thing worthy of note is that all the screws I undid had what appeared to be their original seals in place, so there's no suggestion that anyone had been inside before me - well, not since FLIR fastened the case shut on the production line.I still hope I'm on course for at least basic functionality with just 12V in and video out. But we'll see. It'll be a little while before I can do any more investigation.

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 09, 2021, 06:21:18 pm
content: The date codes on the IC’s suggest that this camera was built in 2005. That is around the time that FLIR bought Indigo but would explain why this appears to be a pre FLIR-Indigo merger design. 2005 would place this in the era of the FLIR Pxx series and the FLIR A40 static camera.http://alacron.com/clientuploads/directory/Cameras/FLIR/A40M%20Researcher%20Datasheet.pdfFraser

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 09, 2021, 06:27:16 pm
content: I will see what pictures I have of the FLIR A40 PCB’s as that may provide clues to your cameras design origins.For those unaware, the A40 was a static QVGA thermal camera with excellent capabilities. It had a local keyboard for control via menus plus IEEE1394a and RS232 connectivity to a PC. It would make a good basis for the camera that Ultrapurple has and both were from around 2005.Fraser

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 09, 2021, 07:44:19 pm
content: Pictures of the A40 PCB's. Sadly, apart from the PCB identity notation being typically AGEMA Thermovision, there is no match that I can see. I have pictures of the SeaFLIR PCB's so will look for those as well.Fraser

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 09, 2021, 07:46:49 pm
content: A40 pictures continued....Sadly, no match to the Dual FOV camera.

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 09, 2021, 07:54:52 pm
content: Just checked the SeaFLIR PCB's for similarity. No match but some example pictures attached for interest.A very different PCB style so the dual FOV PCB's are not from the 'Military/Law Enforcement division'.Fraser

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 09, 2021, 08:16:55 pm
content: Looking at the pictures of my AGEMA/FLIR Thermovision PM570 PCB's you will see why I thought the PM series might be the basis of the dual FOV camera electronics package. Note the design style and PCB ID format. The PM series ended with the PM695 released around 2000.Pictures of my 1997 PM570 attached for interest.Fraser

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 09, 2021, 09:04:44 pm
content: After some more digging in my archives for FLIR/Indigo technology PCB pictures I have realised I am mistaken about the Photon core not being present in the camera...... I now believe that the Photon is indeed fittedI looked at the likely depth of the microbolometer module at the rear of the cameras casing and think there is enough room for a Photon but I am not certain so Ultrapurple will need to investigate to confirm. The Photon is normally self contained so I assume that the other PCB's are associated with power and the lens control/auto focus.Take a look at the attached pictures and look at the FFC flag pivot, the three front cover mounting screws and the front cover locating dowels. I think you will agree that we are looking in the face of a Photon.The Photon teardown from which I borrowed the image is to be found here:http://www.rtftechnologies.org/general/thermal-imager-flir-photon-320.htmlI should of checked this before setting the Hares coursing by saying that the unit was not Photon basedTime to give the somewhat fatigued brain a rest me thinks.Fraser

author: Ultrapurple
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2021, 03:52:09 pm
content: Thanks FraserI managed to squeeze in a little more time to disassemble the camera further and take snapshots of the main boards. They appear to be- power board RIPO2- serial interface RSIL 2- logic / framestore RICO3- what I'm calling (for now) 18Mbit store (the board with 2 chips that is definitely part of the core PCB set)Anyone recognise anything?

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2021, 06:31:35 pm
content: It uses the MC68340 ! ..... my old friend from the Thermovision PM seriesThat processor board is called the “LiCo” in the PM series cameras and I immediately recognised the AGEMA hand in the “RiCo” board designIn the PM series that board is the heart of the camera that is connected to another large PCB that has its own processor board and deals with the output of the microbolometer. Your camera design is somewhat different however. I will need to study the pictures some more and try to make sense of them. Parts of the RiCo PCB look familiar, others not. I think I can recognise the video encoder stage as it looks similar to the PM695 LiCo that uses a FPGA in place of the dedicated BT series video encoder IC that went obsolete.Can you check to see if any of the Photon ‘stack’ PCB’s are fitted behind the Microbolometer ? I am hoping that you will find all but the power PCB mounted on the photon and that FLIR are feeding the cameras digital output to the PCB that you have shown on the end of the FPC.The camera will clearly comprise of some core elements that should not be hard to identify. I have made a list that draws on my knowledge of the AGEMA Thermovision PM series.1. Power supply PCB with main power rails created for board set. Some power rails may be further processed locally on other PCB’s2. Main processor PCB that controls the camera and possibly provides the auto focus function.Any video output often comes from this PCB.3. Interface PCB between the microbolometer and LiCo PCB. This PCB can be a dedicated processing stage with its processed output being fed to the LiCo for use.4. Communications interfaces. There is usually a Serial interface on the LiCo but other interface options may have their own dedicated PCB’s that feed into the LiCo.5. Servo PCB. Where a camera has additional functionality such as auto focus and Zoom functions, there can be a dedicated servo driver board that is either ‘dumb’ or contains processing for the focus element position as part of an auto focus feedback loop. Heavy current drivers can be included on this board where larger servos are being used.6. Display PCB.Where required a local display screen or EVF can be integrated into ten design. This is usually connected to the LiCO PCB that contains ten video encoder. Available video types include composite and S-Video but composite is often used for a EVF.7. Battery power. where there is a need for battery power here will often be a dedicated Battery PCB that deals with the needs of the battery pack and connects to the main Power supply PCB.Fraser

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2021, 06:37:00 pm
content: Just comparing the PM series LiCo and the Dual FOV RiCo, the provenance is clear to meBT858 video encoder is located in the bottom left corner and has a FPGA to its right (covered by thermal pad in my picture) In later PM series cameras the BT858 was replaced by an FPGA. That area of the RiCo looks like what I saw in the PM695.Looking at the left side of the PCB there is a lot that appears familiar to me from the PM series, and more specifically, the PM695. Look at the connector positions on the left of the PCB and compare the LiCo with the RiCo. The small additional FPC connector tor is used for the visible light camera input from a video encoder IC in the PM695 visible light camera ‘pod’. The PM series included a PCMCIA card port so IC’s relating to that function will not be needed in the dual FOV camera. From memory there was a PCI bus IC that serviced the PCMCIA port.Looking at this RiCo PCB I have hopes that this camera will behave like a PM series camera and will present the user with an on screen control menu that is navigated by simple serial commands (Up, Down, Left, Right, Enter etc). More advanced commands would directly access functions and set parameters. If the same team designed the PM series and this dual FOV camera, there us a chance that the firmware is similar to that with which I am familiar. I have a copy of the Thermovision complete command set so we may be in luckI own a FLIR static camera that was developed from the PM570 but that uses PM570 PCB’s and just deleted the EVF and user controls. The Dual FOV camera appears to be a development of the PM695 using a new microbolometer, namely the Indigo Photon core. The PM series used a large and expensive microbolometer and by 2005 it would have been quite old technology to use in a new design.This is really interesting to meFraser

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2021, 06:57:33 pm
content: The other side of the LiCo and RiCo PCB’s.....Note that the large white connector at the centre of the LiCo PCB is for the PCMCIA card port. There are IC’s on this board associated with the PCMCIA memory storage system that are not needed on the dual FOV camera.Fraser

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2021, 07:36:21 pm
content: I have dug out some documentation that may be helpful/of interestI attach a picture of the FLIR Thermovision 320 that I own but that unit is basically a PM570 and not like the dual FOV camera we are looking at here. The Thermovision command set is common across PM series models so there is a good chance that the dual FOV camera uses the same command set. It is not a dedicated military FLIR design and was a commercial product so using the standard Thermovision command set seems logical. The cameras ID plate calls it a "THV" and this means it is from the Thermovision familyFraser

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2021, 10:19:14 pm
content: This old tread may be of interest.https://www.eevblog.com/forum/thermal-imaging/flir-pm695595-teardown-pc-connectivity-firmware-modifications/50/Ratatosk included pictures of his PM675 LiCo PCB that I am including here as a comparison to the earlier PM570 PCB.Fraser

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2021, 10:28:23 pm
content: I have not got a lot of time today to study the pictures of the dual FOV camera PCB’s but I have marked up the 12 pin I/O connector on the RiCo PCB that, in a PM570, provides the following connectivity via the I/O Lemo connectorsComposite Video outS-Video Out CS-Video Out YRS232 TXRS 232 RXEarphone audio outMicrophone audio in (with phantom power)Signal groundThe +12V supply goes from the 10 pin Lemo connector directly to the Power PCB.Fraser

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2021, 11:27:29 pm
content: I just remembered, if serial communications can be established with the RiCo board, there is a member of this forum who has been successful in extracting the firmware from the PM series over the serial data link. He was then able to extract the command set from the firmware downloadIf the dual FOV camera is not using the standard command set for its control, it may be possible to download its firmware and obtain the commands that wayFraser

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2021, 01:03:06 pm
content: I will add the pin out of the I/O connector later as I will need to dig out my PM570 notes.There is no guarantee that the pin out is the same on the dual FOV camera of course but it may still help.Fraser

author: Ultrapurple
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2021, 02:05:09 pm
content: Thanks FraserI am led to believe that document PM501708 is the technical specification for the THV Integrator 5/20.This is the source, on manualslib. The document I found it in is a manual for a cased camera that probably uses the same or very similar core + optics package, but which has a different set of connections to the outside world - and though I didn't find any info on the internal wiring harnesses, there is a lot of info on the UI that I haven't had a chance to look at yet.

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2021, 03:00:22 pm
content: An excellent reference documentLooks like you are going to need the standard Thermovision hand controller for local control. I have these but sadly they are very expensiveI was recently approached by someone wanting such a controller but, as he has no responded to my emails, I consider it back on the market. Sadly it costs almost as much as your camera though so we may need to consider other remote controller options.Fraser

author: Ultrapurple
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2021, 03:11:54 pm
content: Ouch! I think a laptop and RS-232 are going to be the likely candidates - unless of course there's a simple way to reverse-engineer the FLIR box?

author: Miek
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2021, 03:20:30 pm
content: Quote from: Fraser on March 10, 2021, 11:27:29 pmHere's the info on dumping the firmware over serial by the way:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/thermal-imaging/getting-digital-data-out-of-my-pm695/msg3186726/#newI assume the official FLIR controller just has a microcontroller inside sending RS232 commands. It wouldn't be too hard to make one from scratch.On my PM695 at least, the serial command to do button presses is:Code:BUTTON:arg1[,arg2]where arg1 is one of U, R, D, L, ENT, ESC, F1, F2, LEV, SPN, EMI, DSTand arg2 is optional and is either 'P' or 'R' (I'm assuming press/release)

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2021, 03:24:11 pm
content: I have just read the Sentinel manual and I am pleased to say that this camera looks simple to recommissionThe manual provides most of the information needed and my Command manual contains the serial commands you will needThis dual FOV camera is a pretty standard AGEMA/FLIR PM series static camera design.It would be possible to build your own RS232 remote control that sends the required data strings to the camera. It is plain old fashioned RS232 and nothing unusual.The camera may also be controllable from FLIR software of the era, such as Researcher 2001 or 2.8. There was also a Thermovision control program but I cannot remember if I have used it so do not know if it works with the PM series.The Sentinel uses RS232 or RS485 for its control. I suggest sticking with the standard RS232 for simplicity. RS485 is common in CCTV systems for remote controlling PTZ’s but it appears that the common PELCO D command decoder is not included as standard so your unit may not understand it. It is likely that there was a board in the camera housing that manages the RS485 commands to the visible light and thermal cameras. I see no advantage in using RS485 for you.The pin-out of the Sentinel camera connector gives you an excellent insight into what is likely present on the dual FOV modules D-Type connector. The ‘RS232 Service Port” is the one you will be using.Fraser

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2021, 03:26:15 pm
content: Miek,Yes building a remote controller is pretty simple and an Arduino could easily meet that needI had plans for such a project but life just got in the wayThanks for detailing the firmware download methodFraser

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2021, 06:01:11 pm
content: Pin-out of the PM570 I/O connector is attached

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2021, 10:08:01 pm
content: Regarding a means to locally controlling the camera via RS232, there are several options....1. Buy the official THV PM series remote controller (sadly rare and expensive as Industry pays serious money for them)2. Build a simple pre-programmed RS232 remote controller that sends the command strings in response to a button press. Arduino can easily do this task.3. Buy a programmable RS232 keypad and program it with the RS232 command strings as key macros. Genovation made such keypads but they cost around £100.4. Find a suitable Audio Visual remote control panel used to control AV equipment over RS232 links. These are expensive new, but available on eBay at reasonable prices5. Use a laptop or tablet PC to control the camera via a program that can send RS232 command strings in response to button or mouse inputs. This has the disadvantage of boot time and bulk but the advantage of versatility.I have the original AGEMA/FLIR remote controllers so do not have a great need for an alternative solutionI have bought a few Audio Visual equipment RS232 control panels from Extron, Procon and AMX. I have some 6 key, 8 key and 16 key types. Each controller has individually programmable keys and is designed to send a RS232 command string when the key is pressed. A software utility assists with the programming side of things, including data format and baud rate. Procon was bought by AMX so the control panels are the same. Care is needed to buy 'Master' controllers and not 'Slaves' and the controllers must include AV equipment control via RS232. Some are designed to control a video switch or operate on a network to a main controller. Those do not always offer direct RS232 output for equipment control as well. 'IR Blaster' LED output is common and of no concern as long as RS232 is also present.I attach a picture of my favourite AMX control panel. I bought this particular one recently. It has 16 keys arranged in a useful layout for controlling a Thermovision cameraAll key legends may be changed and are just acetate sheet. You can print new ones with a laser printer and laser compatible transparent sheet. The keys are all backlit with blue LED's. Lovely bits of kit and very versatile so I have bought a few over the years.The 16 key control panel supports multiple RS232 appliances via its three RS232 output ports. Expect to pay between £12 and £40 for such a unit on eBay.Fraser

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2021, 10:17:28 pm
content: For anyone wanting a cheap AMX controller there are some here:https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/AMX-YP2016-03-16-Button-Novara-ControlPad-Control-Pad-2/202905858987?hash=item2f3e21b3ab:g:CUIAAOSwmU9eSAYchttps://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/AMX-YP2016-01-16-Button-Novara-ControlPad-Control-Pad-W-Mounting-Plate-2/123964575361?epid=1105048497&hash=item1cdcdd4e81:g:Mi8AAOSwLARdwWrihttps://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/AMX-YP2016-03-16-Button-Novara-ControlPad-Control-Pad-With-PSU/123968527251?hash=item1cdd199b93:g:a~YAAOSwJwFdxYg6https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/AMX-YP2016-01-16-Button-Novara-ControlPad-Control-Pad-W-Mounting-Plate/123964556795?epid=1105048497&hash=item1cdcdd05fb:g:b2UAAOSwTm1dwWTwYou buy at your own risk though so do not blame me if they are not suited to your task! Do your own researchFraser

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2021, 10:52:13 pm
content: The Genovation programmable RS232 keypad .....https://www.dsi-keyboards.com/shop/brands-category/genovation/genovation-controlpad-684-programmable-rs-232-serial-keypad/Fraser

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2021, 02:22:11 pm
content: My latest AMX programmable RS232 keypad purchase has just arrived. I have several brushed stainless steel versions but wanted this white variant with its nice pin stripe around the keys. Looks to be in excellent condition.Fraser

author: Ultrapurple
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2021, 05:09:26 pm
content: IT LIVES!!!I X-Rayed the power board so I might get a clue what pins did what. I was helped somewhat by FLIR's decision to populate the main power connector with red wires for +12V and black for 0V (although the colours were re-used on other pins so it wasn't as simple as it sounds). (Note that the X-Ray here is a composite of three exposures. The rectangular area is screened by a metal box that my X-Ray system I could only just penetrate, but at least it showed that there was something suspiciously like a switch mode PSU in there).Knowing the camera was supposed to run from 12V and that there was a 3A fuse between the input pin and the rest of the circuitry, I set my trusty bench PSY to twelve-and-a-bit volts, set the current limit to 2A and connected up.There were some weird graunching noises from within the camera that stopped after a second or so. They were, I believe, the dual field of view and focus systems stretching their muscles. The only sound after that was the very, very quiet internal fan.After 20 or 30 seconds the monitor lit up with the FLIR ThermoVision Integrator 5/20 splash screen. The monitor reported that the signal was PAL, which was useful to know. Definitely a good start. Shortly after that I was rewarded with a very nice thermal image!As yet I have no means of adjusting the focus or field of view but I was able to get good quality, 25Hz (possibly 50Hz) images in good focus simply by pointing the camera at something about the right distance away.Finally, I tried the time-honoured handprint on the wall test. The handprint was very visible after one minute and still detectable after more than 3 minutes. This bodes very well for sensitivity!I have purchased one of the RS-232 macro keypads that Fraser mentioned in the preceding post (mine appears identical). Now 'all' I have to do is find out the command set and figure out the comms pinouts, baud rate and start/stop bit format.Thanks and kudos to everyone who has helped me to get this far.

author: Ultrapurple
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2021, 05:14:29 pm
content: Just as an aside, while I had the camera in pieces I tried putting a Therm-App camerasanslens against the optical block. I was pleased to discover I could get a nice, sharp image quite easily. Given that the Therm-App sensor is much smaller than the one the optical system was designed for, I wasn't surprised to see pretty fantastic magnification - something like a 2° field of view.Using the optical block with a Therm-App was really only a fallback position in case the camera didn't work; I'm pleased to report it all works very nicely.

author: Miek
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2021, 07:11:42 pm
content: Nice!Quote from: Ultrapurple on March 15, 2021, 05:09:26 pmIf it's the same as the other ThermoVision cameras, it should be 19200Bd 8N1. It should also print a bunch of info on bootup so you can look out for that.Most of the commands are documented in the SC3000 manual available here:https://flir.custhelp.com/app/account/fl_download_manuals

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2021, 01:17:34 pm
content: In case anyone has trouble finding the configuration client for the AMX RS232 keypads I mentioned. They were originally made by PROCON and AMX bought them in 2008. The PROCON configuration client is available via Wayback Machine. AMX may also provide the configuration client upon request.WWW.PROCON.CO.UKFraser

author: Ultrapurple
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2021, 04:02:34 pm
content: Here's a direct video capture from the analogue output.There is a better sample video still here]Here's how I got it using an Easycap dongle and an old phone.The black borders are the same as we saw in the off-screen photos posted previously (particularly the 'first light' image, which was deliberately cropped loosely to show the whole monitor).

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2021, 04:35:07 pm
content: The first thing I saw when looking at your Picture was a Frog looking back at meI have highlighted froggy in the imageFraser

author: Ultrapurple
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2021, 04:42:34 pm
content: I see what you mean!

author: Ultrapurple
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2021, 04:44:08 pm
content: Here's the basic pinout that I can confirm works and produces good video. I'll add details of RS-232 etc when I have established communication with the camera.I recommend you remove the black lid that houses the electronics and unplug the tape-style heater element that's attached to the lid. It would normally be off but if it does turn on you can expect the current consumption to increase substantially from the 600mA or so when the camera is displaying a static picture. Current consumption is higher - but I don't know by how much - when activating the focus or FoV motors.

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2021, 05:11:05 pm
content: It will be interesting to see whether the camera is also able to supply a S-Video output like that found on the PM series.In case anyone is wondering... the PM series cameras use a conventional RS232 interface. That is to say, it adheres to the RS232 standard signal levels and polarity. It is not the “UART RS232” that is found on FLIR cores like the TAU series. I would expect the Dual FOV core to be using standard RS232 as well. The UART to RS232 level converter should be easy to find on the cameras RiCo PCB, as seen on the PM series LiCo PCB.It is also worth noting that the PM series LiCo boards contain two RS232 ports, of which only one is brought out to the I/O port. I believe the second RS232 port is associated with engineering tests etc.Fraser

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2021, 06:37:45 pm
content: As expected the same RS232 level converter IC as found on the PM series is to be found on the RiCo board of the dual FOV camera. It is an LT1381 and I have marked its location on the attached image.https://www.analog.com/media/en/technical-documentation/data-sheets/1381fas.pdfFraser

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2021, 06:39:55 pm
content: The location of the LT1381 IC is different on a PM series board.

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2021, 06:43:07 pm
content: Interestingly the PM675 uses a MAX232 RS232 level shifter IC

author: Ultrapurple
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2021, 03:35:08 pm
content: The plot thickens.I realised that I was getting composite video the opposite way round from that shown in Fraser's pinout of the PM570. So I thought it would be worth investigating further. I X-Rayed the RICO and RISL boards and marked up a portion of the RICO boards with the PM570 pin functions (red), colours of the wires that are plugged in (black), wires that are twisted together in two sets (cyan) and the known functions or resistance measurements to ground (magenta).It's fairly clear that the pinout doesn't match the PM570. Initially I wondered if the pinout was a mirror image (as the composite out appeared on the same pins, but swapped), however it soon became clear this wasn't the case.Unless anyone has any bright ideas to the contrary I guess my next move will be to hang a scope off the pins during startup (to see if I can spot a RS-232 output talking) and then check the voltages when the camera is booted and in a steady state. Any thoughts?

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2021, 05:56:43 pm
content: Hi Ultrapurple,I did have the pin out mirrored in my first draft of the connector due to the way I was testing the cable. I thought I corrected that in my image that I added to this thread but I will check.To locate the RS232 RX and TX I would suggest a continuity check between the LT1381 RX and TX pins and the pins of that white connector. The S-Video can be spotted with an oscilloscope.Fraser

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2021, 08:54:45 pm
content: PM570 Pin out checked and confirmedThe dual FOV camera may have more than one composite video output to provide both a local and remote monitor video signal. There can also be things like Genloc inputs for image synchronisation, especially as the camera is often used in harmony with a visible light camera. The presence of an S-Video port is often given away by a dual core coaxial cable. Shield = S-Video ground plus the C and Y signals on the two cores. There can also be a 12V out power rail for a local monitor, or remote control, but that does not come from this white connector on a PM570 (it comes directly from the power supply board).Fraser

author: Ultrapurple
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 20, 2021, 05:34:30 pm
content: Quote from: Fraser on March 19, 2021, 05:56:43 pmThat quite simply hadn't occurred to me!Checking the datasheet for the LT1381 shows there to be an internal 5k to ground on the input pins so I checked for that and soon found the single pin on the white connector that matched that description. Then I had to work out which chip it connected to. After fruitlessly checking the chips on the RISL board I took another look at the larger RICO and found one LT1381 on that board that, perhaps unsurprisingly, belled out to the socket. (Yes, it was the one Fraser had pointed out earlier...) From there it wasn't hard to discover the output pin.I have updated the X-Ray image accordingly; the revised version is below.Next step: work out which of the D-connector pins are connected to the RS-232 port, and establish comms.

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 20, 2021, 05:38:00 pm
content: I ringed the RS232 LT1381 location for you on the RiCo picture, aboveGlad you identified the pinsFraser

author: Ultrapurple
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 20, 2021, 06:53:42 pm
content: Comms established!As suggested, 19200 baud, 8 bit / n / 1, Xon/Xoff.I can get into the camera and control many of the functions, including switching between narrow and wide field of views, though I have yet to discover how to adjust the focus. Control is a little tedious at the moment, as I have to simulate button presses with, for example, "button:esc" to 'press' the escape key. But I do have a panel I can program with these keystrokes so it's just a matter of finding what commands I need (particularly for focus) and programming the panel.Here are some screenshots. Do I really believe the camera has clocked 93,640 hours of runtime? 11 years or so? Maybe, particularly if it was made circa 2005.

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 20, 2021, 07:57:49 pm
content: The hours count is likely genuine. I have Ex Military Getac rugged laptops with similar accumulated hours as they were part of 24/7 systems. At least you know the unit has been well and truly ‘burnt-in’If the camera follows the same design as the PM series units, the on-screen menu does not provide the focus adjustment. The focus becomes active using the on-camera joystick or the navigation pad on the remote control. I suspect you will need to send discrete commands for joystick up, down, left and right to access functions not available whilst the menu is active. Alternatively you may have to send focus- and focus+ commands rather than simulating joystick inputs.You have yourself a very nice camera nowFraser

author: Ultrapurple
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2021, 09:41:47 am
content: Some useful commands I have found in various bits of documentation. This list is far from exhaustive: it's just notes of the ones I think are most useful. I will expand it as I find more.A command followed by a colon means 'set this thing to whatever is after the colon'A command followed by a question mark means 'tell me the current setting of this thing'Send these from a terminal program, typed as shown, followed by <enter>. Commands are not case-sensitive.echo:onechoes characters back to the terminal so you can see what you've typedfocuspos:0initiates autofocusfocuspos?reports focus position as a numberfocusmov:upmoves focus (quickly!) to near limitfocusmov:downmoves focus (quickly!) to infinityfocusmov:stopstops any focus movement in progressI think there are further ways of using these focus commands to jog forwards / backwards; more investigation neededbutton:f2force FFC flag event and optimise imagebutton:fovswap field of view 5>20 or 20>5spot:visseems to turn off central crosshairbutton:entpresses 'enter'; brings up onscreen menubutton:escpresses 'escape'; turns off onscreen menubutton:invswaps between white hot and black hot (or equivalent on other pallettes)button:upresses 'up button' (for navigating menus etc)button:dpresses 'down button'button:lpresses 'left button'button:rpresses 'right button'palette:greypalette:ironbowpalette:rainbowsets the named palette (you can get a list of available palettes by sendingpalettes?)palette:linsets linear palettefreeze:onfreezes displayfreeze:offrestores live displaya cycle offreeze:onfollowed byfreeze:offwill save current settings (palette, display modes, screen furniture etc) as a new power-on default

author: Ultrapurple
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2021, 09:52:56 am
content: It's getting to the point where I'm considering starting a new topic that brings all of these findings together into a specific FLIR Integrator 5/20 thread. Any thoughts?

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2021, 10:13:48 am
content: That sounds like a good idea as future searches will find it easier than this threadHer complete name is “FLIR Thermovision THV Integrator 5/20” . The Thermovision and THV terms may help people searching for this camera in years to come. One complication is that she appears to have been renamed “FLIR UC520” as we discovered.Fraser

author: Ultrapurple
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2021, 10:20:57 am
content: OK; I will leave this thread as it is and start a new one once I have got my head around the camera a bit more.