Is my boss being reasonable? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Muffins
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2025, 07:57:21 am
content: I work at a place where I am developing fairly simple electronics products. They also sell non-electronics products.I'm the only engineer there as they have previously had external people develop their products, which has ended up in them not having the IP for their designs as the director doesn't put in the effort to read contracts.I've got to a point where I've got a product ready to be sent off for EMC compliance testing. I've not done this before but I'm learning about the process. So I send all the information I can to the testing house and I get a quote back for about £16k, of which around £9k is related to AC safety testing.The device runs on 12v DC from an off the shelf power supply. I get that since the whole device plugs into AC mains, it is seen as an AC device.My boss however, does not think this is appropriate. He is quite upset about the 'additional' costing and has even gone as far as to say that the process is not affordable for the products and implied that I would be out of job if it wasn't cheaper. Now he has given me the task of determining what standards the electronics products need to meet to be sold in the UK, EU and US markets. I am very uncomfortable with this request, I feel that it should be the director of the company who is responsible for determining which standards their products need to meet. I don't know the ins and outs of the legal requirements of selling products and if I try to figure it out I feel like I'll basically be guessing. If I choose standards that don't actually apply it could mean unnecessary testing costs, or perhaps even legal consequences for not meeting the appropriate standards.I've found companies that consult for this sort of thing but the director won't have it. It's falling on me to figure out.So basically, he wants me to figure out what standards the products need to meet to be sold on those markets, but they also need to be cheap to test at the testing house or the electronics department gets canned and I get fired.Should it fall on me to determine this sort of stuff? Is it actually easier than I am thinking? It's all bloated legal documents and really difficult to get through.

author: Sorama
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2025, 08:27:58 am
content: Have a look in detail at what is mentioned in your job description.If you feel it’s not part of your job, then send him an e-mail saying this is not part of your job nor do you have the knowledge for it and that it stays the responsability of the company.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2025, 08:32:02 am
content: its a full time position to determine and track the requirements, then another one to check if its implemented properly. Thats a multi national product release. I don't think they even know how much paper work and research is involved.I have a feeling your project is meant to vanish. All the one man product release shows seem to... just disappear.Clearly they don't know what they are doing. They think they replaced a entire contract service, but what they really did is acquire a single engineer.What I don't know is where they keep finding people that get such "shock" that a electric product release is expensive and confusing. Where do those guys come from??? And I am almost sure there is someone there counting on millions in profit but freaking out about a petty 16k fee.I just started to think in this situation they know exactly what they need but they want to get some naive that misses requirements so they can manufacturer it cheaper.protect your reputation and integrity at all costs

author: jc101
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2025, 08:43:08 am
content: The last time I put a device through formal UK/EU and USA (FCC) testing, my local test house didn't do any AC mains testing. The unit took a 12v input, so I just had to take along a "typical" power brick to use for the testing. As I didn't include the power brick with the unit, it doesn't form part of the system under test. I have no control over what power brick the end user may use, so I do add protection on the DC input incase they do something foolish.Before testing I went to see the test people, walked through what the unit did and the usage scenarios. They came back with some applicable standards and we formulated a test plan. Only took a couple of hours. With that info I could complete the design knowing the targets I had to meet.All in all I think it cost ~£6k. This was for a few hours doing some pre compliance checks on a prototype. The formal testing, and two sets of reports. One for FCC and one for CE.It would be more if I had radios in it, such as WiFi or BT, though depending on how you implement those testing time may be able to be reduced.If you're nearish to Cambridge, it might be worth arranging a visit to dBTechology, they are very helpful and knowledgeable people.https://www.dbtechnology.co.ukAs to whether this forms part of the job, that depends. The scope of the project should steer what the requirements would be, such as commercial or residential for starters. Ideally you know what you need to pass before you start, as compliance should be part of the design from the start. Trying to fix things afterwards can be a real pain.Who wrote the project scope, as I would expect the requirements to be given in that?

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2025, 08:45:08 am
content: also how is legal not involved in something like that. Usually these things have like a strong coordination with legal, lots of meetings, so they understand exposure and stuff.Also the requriements guy role is like a serious one that pays alot and also bears extra responsibility. When I did stuff like that, you basically left the requirements guy out of it. No one thought it was a good idea to make him do "work" on the project, because all it takes is 1 missing document to cause a shit on fan scenario. He would look through the documents, find the relevant ones to your top level design, make specific notes for you, let you work, then review stuff and be available for questions as needed. And since he does not do the nitty gritty of the design work, he gets to go to the labs for testing, do some meetings and other important stuff. IMO there is no need for the designer to constantly have that stuff in mind, your goal is to make something that works. you modify it after a review to meet requirements that someone determines. Chances are if you can't meet something with your functional design, and it cant be modded, it can be sold for something with less requirements.

author: nali
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2025, 08:52:17 am
content: Quote from: coppercone2 on July 05, 2025, 08:32:02 amA big clue and a red flag here:QuoteTempting to use a bit of FUD; point out that non-compliance can lead to acriminaloffence, he's liable as a company director, and start looking... (maybe not in that order!)

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2025, 08:55:59 am
content: yeah lol I wonder if later hes gonna make him work in the shipping deparment to figure out how to package the products and then tape boxes.one man can only do so muchand sometimes you get a special person to just deal with 1 of the requirements that can get insane. Like for instance humidity. Some of them can turn into a ridiculous debacle.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2025, 09:19:40 am
content: This is indeed a tricky situation, which indicates the manager is quite ignorant of the complexities of compliance. I don't know your company but, in my experience, a director would delegate to a group/team the responsibility to determine these details and provide resourced from other teams (e.g. the legal team) to complete this task.However, since you must provide your manager an answer, this can be either direct ("not part of my job description") or a best guess. The type of answer will depend on how much you need this job, since the first option might make you lose it.If you follow the second option above, there are ways to communicate your best estimate of the compliance needs based on what you found on the internet. However, be absolutely clear in your communications that these are best estimates but might have gaps due to your lack of experience with compliance, and provide a suggestion to connect with a professional or third party about this. Always put everything in writing and with copy to the director if possible. Save your emails and keep a record of in-person discussions and meetings by sending e-mails containing the meeting minutes or "just to reiterate what we discussed earlier..."This will help build your defense if the axe falls in the future.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 05, 2025, 09:38:48 am
content: You either use external power brick or you need safety testing. The only exception could be if PSU faceplate has a mains inlet that sticks out of the device. So nothing of your design is in between the mains cable and PSU like in prebuilt desktop PCs.

author: NE666
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2025, 10:16:55 am
content: Pessimism first: Your employment is in a precarious state whatever you do. You should keep your CV up to date and be actively looking at other opportunities.There are many red flags in the situation as you've described it but the stand out one is that the existence of your role seems to be the result of a poorly considered experiment in cost reduction by someone not qualified or responsible enough to appreciate what is really involved. I foresee that when the perceived savings or outcomes don't materialise, it will get pulled and you'll potentially be made redundant. Replaced by external design with better contracts in place.As for "covering your arse" with either emails or job descriptions, long experience has taught me that unless there's the potential in a situation for you personally to be prosecuted legally, a paper trail defense of your performance within a company isn't really worth diddly. In the UK, employment law provides little practical recourse for unfair or constructive dismissal. Even if you can successfully prove that at tribunal, the average payout is 3 to 6 months' salary. Nothing that you can retire on.The positive: My advice would be to embrace the opportunity this represents to learn something new. Make it clear that you'll be working outside of your previous experience and try to ensure that when major decisions are made, they are delegated upwards and there's paperwork reflecting that. If all goes well, you keep your job and you've added a valuable skillset to your CV. If it doesn't, no one can take that experience from you and you carry it into your next employment. "It's not in my job description" isn't a practical option here imho, it's just a resignation letter with extra steps.But start looking for another job.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2025, 10:33:19 am
content: Buy a wall brick from a company like Stontronics, and that is a CE / UKCA approved device so you would only need to pass EMC directive, and radio equipment directive if there is an intentional radiator. Low voltage directive would be a paperwork exercise: we are using a compliant adapter, see reference testing certificate #xyz supplied by OEM "abc".Be aware though that whilst this islegal(your product may be placed on the market), if there is a problem with the OEM adapter that you supply, the legal buck resides with your company,notthe OEM supplier. When I worked at a larger company, efforts were spent on verifying the compliance of OEM adapters because of this.If you've taken appropriate steps in building and designing the product, you can get through the standard set of EMC tests with 2-3 days of lab time. A typical day at the lab costs £1k. So £16k does seem excessive to me. Then you compile the technical file with reference to the relevant IEC standards and the legislation.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2025, 11:39:24 am
content: Quote from: tom66 on July 05, 2025, 10:33:19 amI agree with this.My advice would be to hire a consultant who specialises in compliance. There are many of those consultants around and they can tell you exactly which standards and testing requirements apply to a product. This is a specialist field in itself and not something you pick up on the side. If the boss insists the OP should be able to determine which standards apply, then the OP will need to take product compliance courses and do the study work (paid by the company).AFAIK FCC testing requires doing tests at a certified testing facility. CE can be self-certified but I highly recommend against it unless you really know what you are doing AND the company's legal department signs off on it.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2025, 02:27:57 pm
content: Self-certification for EMC can be useful for very simple devices. Say for instance you make a device that has an LED and linear regulator, and is powered by a compliant 3rd party adapter. You can make an engineering assessment (maybe with a couple of scope traces to show it's not oscillating for instance) that asserts that if the power adapter passes, this device will pass, and you used a certified and tested adapter so that's OK. This is the case in UK/EU at least. I am not sure about other markets.The way it was described to me by someone who works in this business is... doing the certification process (including testing) is like doing the homework to prove you've done it right. There isn't any legal requirement to do testing to the relevant EN IEC standard. In fact, you could invent your own protocols provided it was technically sound. But doing it the proper way gives you a legal backstop in the event the product is discovered to be non-compliant, all that would be required is some way to rectify that non-compliance (for instance, recalling the products, or a firmware update, if that was practical). But if when the relevant authority asks for your technical file and you go "what's a technical file?" then there can be criminal consequences because you have been negligent in releasing a device onto the market without any kind of assessment or testing. You don't have to actually take the product to an EMC lab, but it sure looks better to the authorities if you do.Note that there are some product areas where certification is a legal requirement, for instance, smoke/fire detection devicesmustbe tested by a competent authority in order for a device to be put onto the market legally. You will usually know if you are in this market, because it involves things like life safety devices, medical devices, automotive stuff, etc.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2025, 03:01:56 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on July 05, 2025, 02:27:57 pmI'm not so sure about that. Typically there are laws which refer to those standards as a requirement for products being put on the market. In case of problems you'd need to prove your products comply which more or less infers a legal obligation to test using the referred standards. I don't see how testing along your own protocols is going to provide legal proof a product complies with the legal requirements. Going that route sounds like a world of pain to me.Keep in mind that some certification experts may have ideas of their own. I've encountered a few of those over the years.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2025, 03:13:11 pm
content: External off-the-shelf PSU - no need for AC safety testing.But if it's an internal off-the-shelf PSU, you still have the safety aspects of how the mains gets to it ( unless maybe it has ain integral IEC, like a PC PSU) , as well as things like labelling, which are part of the standard.With an internal off-the-shelf PSU, it would probably be reasonable to self-certify the AC safety aspects within the PSU based on its certification.Probably not to much EMC though, as certified PSUs are usually tested with a benign resistive load at full load, and performance will vary with anything different.It would certaoinly worth a few hours' consultancy time to determine which standards are applicable - this can be harder then the actual testing. Test houses can help with this but don't forget they make their money from testing, so their advice may not be entirely impartial, and where there is some doubt may be more likely to advise testing where it may not be necessary.And make sure your boss is the one who signs the decleration of conformity.

author: Vertamps
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2025, 03:26:15 pm
content: How many products will be sold/how much money is involved, does it wireless transmit in any way?In the few dozen products iv worked on at my company compliance testing has never been done. Most projects have MCU's running under 20Mhz, and only one iv done used RFID communication (Previous products had some bluetooth modules).If the company does under $1 million U.S. a year, probably not worth bothering expensive testing other than setting up in house testing.If your product intends to emit high power radio waves that's where id say testing and compliance cost have to be built into the project.Most products unless from a big name company (>10 -100 million dollar companies) never get EMC tested unless specific transceiver type products. Small companies might do not have there product audited, in 40 years my company has never had a problem (iv only been there for 6).EDIT: Many of our product are battery powered and we have used thousands of cheap 5v USB chargers that come from China. One batch was bad and malfunctioned causing failure to put way more than 5v out the usb port frying boards in the field. We corrected the issue and went to a different charger. The cost was replacement, but scary these danged cheap chargers. Due your own diligence.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2025, 06:26:08 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on July 05, 2025, 03:01:56 pmThe EMC Directive doesn't reference any specific EN standard. What it does state though is if you do assume these standards (the so-called "harmonised standards", given EN IEC numbers), you get a "presumption of conformity" - if the product passes the tests in the lab, you don't have to explain yourself if it turns out it makes phones go wonky when turned on next to them (unless the lab samples were not representative of the marketed product, which is a complicated area).Emphasis mine:QuoteIt is still possible to produce a product without meeting the presumption of conformity, but you would need to explain why you felt it was acceptable to deviate from the harmonised standard. That can get very expensive, with lawyers and technical experts involved.Thelegal requirementis, emphasis mine:Quotehttps://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX:32014L0030

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2025, 06:45:09 pm
content: imo if you have to deal with the words "state of the art" and also a PCB design something is very wrong @ work, unless its one of those weird situations where they have you patent something you invented

author: stretchyman
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2025, 09:24:28 am
content: Run the product from a 12V battery.I used to take 3G basestations to be tested and we carted along 4x12V batteries for the 48V supply.J.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2025, 09:45:50 am
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on July 05, 2025, 03:13:11 pmBeware that some countries have different interpretations.Few years back I visited a company that explicitly sold the external power supply as a standalone add on product (its own box and product code).When you ordered at their website it was included in the total pricing.This way they did not have to emc and mains test the power supply, it had its own certification and UL/KemaKeur/TuV etc marks.If they shipped it in the same box they could only get the EMC certification on their product when it was tested with the powersupply.Worth while checking this for the countries you would like to sell the product to.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2025, 01:35:03 pm
content: Quote from: Muffins on July 05, 2025, 07:57:21 amSo, to get back to the original question:Don'ttake on the task (and legal responsibility) of creating an analysis of applicable compliance standards. Butdopropose a modified technical solution, namely the external power brick as suggested by others in this thread. Then let the test house provide an updated analysis of the compliance requirements and a quote for the revised test scope.That way, you limit your job and liability to what it should be, and you hopefully score points with the boss for the more cost-effective design.

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2025, 07:22:28 am
content: The test lab is trying to con you, or you miscommunicated with them (more likely). Supplying a COTS, legally imported power supply is one of the most usual things to do, and no, it does not mean your product needs to be tested for LVD compliance. So your boss is definitely right; listen to him.(I'm assuming here you are aiming for CE and UKCA, and further assuming there is no significant change in UKCA compared to what is was pre-Brexit, but I'm not really sure.)

author: JPortici
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2025, 07:27:26 am
content: Quote from: Muffins on July 05, 2025, 07:57:21 ambut does AC enter your product? if it doesn't then you don't need to test for AC safety compliance. If it does, use a power brick on your product, and test the device with 12VDC from the Lab's power supply.Maybe (maybe, because you should) test your product only for radiated EMC with the power brick you're going to sell it with

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2025, 08:07:57 am
content: Quote from: Siwastaja on July 08, 2025, 07:22:28 amI'm told that UKCA is a waste of time since it was announced that CE will be accepted indefinitely by the UK

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2025, 08:29:57 am
content: The company needs to hire a compliance consultant to figure this out.It's all regulatory stuff so not up to the engineering team or person. Engineers are not qualified in compliance laws.The regulatory consultant will tell you want you actually need to test to comply with the laws.Then you go to the test house with a list of what you want them to test.Without that list, they will throw in everything, including the kitchen sink, into the quote.If you really can't hire a regulatory consultant then you could perhaps get quotes from 4 different testing labs.You might get lucky and get someone who won't oversell you stuff.You can also ask to speak to someone at the test lab who's an export on the regulatory side, schedule a proper meeting and pay for their time if required. Then go through each item asking what it's for and if it's needed and why. You may find that, by getting them to actually talk about it and your product, they will tell you want isnt needed from their original quote.Test labs are used to dealing with the regulatory person at big multinational companies. Usually that person is high up in the company and less concerned with getting the costs down for a one-off expenditure. They are usually more concerned about timeframe and just want everything tested asap.So the test labs do tend to add lots of stuff in if they can get away with it. Some are worse than others obviously. But they are usually helpful if you actually talk to them rather than sending an email asking for a quote based on a quick description of your product.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2025, 08:30:19 am
content: Call back the testing house, and clarify that the power supply already has CE or UKCA or whatever certificate.But in the end, they try to charge you a certain amount for a product certification, no matter what. If it's not AC safety, then they send it for more EMC testing, or they IP test it or whatever.

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2025, 08:36:57 am
content: Yeah, its mostly about talking to them and giving them all the relevant info. Without the right info they will always choose the option where the most things get tested.They don't want you coming back later pissed at them and asking why they never tested X because you've just found out you need it, and now the product release is going to be delayed 6 weeks.So if there a 0.1% chance they reckon you might need X, or they are unsure, then they will add it in.

author: Njk
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2025, 06:40:06 pm
content: One related story from my life.My boss once asked me to do a product design. I'd started with the parts selection. There was one component (relay), for which the part selection needed to be done based on the target market. In the US, the mains voltage is lower than in Europe, and the part formally meeting the European requirement was more expensive. So I asked the boss about the market. He replied that the product is only for the domestic market, don't care about Europe, the cost consideration is more important.Did the design, applied to the test lab. The lab sent me two quotations, about $2k each, to my memory. The first quotation was a one-time registration fee, to get my company registered in the lab's records as a customer forever. The second quotation was for actual testing against the FCC requirements. The tests passed, the lab did all the work to formally register the product with the gov agency, and all were happy.In about a year, the boss found a customer in the UK and asked me to contact the lab again, this time for testing the design for CE mark. I'd tried to suggest that it's a bad idea and most likely waste of money. But the boss knows better. The lab sent me two quotations again. Out of curiosity, I asked the lab why we have to pay for the registration again. They said oops and recalled the quotation. The tests failed, but I've a strong suspicion the result would be different without my unnecessary questions.In the end, the product reached the UK. The CE mark was there. The company sold the product to a small start-up internet store, which marked the product with their own brand. The liability of that legal entity is so limited no one will try to get a profit by taking it to the court for false CE declaration.

author: Muffins
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 09, 2025, 11:04:51 am
content: Thanks guys, this has given me a lot to think about. I've had a chat with my boss again and told him that compliance engineering is a completely different profession. He was asking if I was taught about the standards at university and I explained that university was orientated towards fundamental concepts. He was then asking if we could setup in house testing and self certify all the products.I'll just keep things stable at the moment, I'd like to send the product through testing to find out how that is done, then I'll start applying for new roles in a couple of months.Fortunately the product I am dealing with right now is a redesign, they don't have the manufacturing files or data for it but there is a certificate saying it was made to comply with the 2013/35/EU - Low Voltage Directive, 2013/30/EU - EMC Directive and 2011/65/EU - ROHS. There isn't a technical file or any certification or test results.

author: jc101
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 09, 2025, 11:33:12 am
content: I do pre-compliance EMC checks in house, to look for anything which could be marginal during formal testing. Over time this has saved time in the formal labs, and is quicker as I can test something whenever I want to. My results are close enough to the EMC lab I use to be able to spot a problem that needs sorting.Some parts companies offer free EMC lab time if you use their parts. The local Wurth rep was reminding me of this recently. If you are Wurth customers you can book time in a lab in Manchester (I think), who can help you with pre-compliance testing, standards, and advice on resolutions if things aren't a good as they could be. Wurth have a lot of free support available. Even tiny customers like me get the same treatment, it's quite a pleasant surprise these days.

author: u666sa
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 09, 2025, 02:36:05 pm
content: Quote from: Muffins on July 05, 2025, 07:57:21 amYour boss has his boss. The top boss is comparing you Vs. outsourcing and realizing you have got to go. It's as simple as that.What you want to do is leave before they fire you. Otherwise it will sting on your career sheet.Start looking for new job and leave asap.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 09, 2025, 03:17:50 pm
content: Quote from: Muffins on July 09, 2025, 11:04:51 amWhat I'm missing from the entire story is: what is the volume of the products? If these are niche products which only sell in the tens to hundred units, certification costs will be way more than can be recouped from sales. From there I can see your boss being upset with certification costs. For a small number of units, it is very unlikely for the company to run into problems.It is possible to do in-house testing with relatively low cost setups like a spectrum analyser, LISN, TEM-cell, RF generator (with AM modulation), RF amplifier and an ESD gun. With these tools you can check ESD, conducted emissions, radiated emission, radiated immunity and ESD. Tekbox has a wide range of EMC testing equipment which is quite affordable. You'd still need to know what you are doing (which is going to take a learning curve) but for devices running at 48V (nominal) or less, you can cover like 90% of the testing.

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2025, 12:20:52 am
content: Quote from: Njk on July 08, 2025, 06:40:06 pmNo reputable lab is going to sabotage your product testing over $2k in profit.If the tests fail they will usually offer to help you to pass with whatever equipment they have in house (ferrites, etc.). The labor rate can be a few hundred per hour, but when testing is $10-20k its worth it.

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2025, 02:39:47 am
content: Quote from: thm_w on July 10, 2025, 12:20:52 amThe keyword being 'reputable'.It does feel like there's more non-reputable ones than reputable ones.But that could just be bias from only hearing about the bad test house encounter stories.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2025, 03:00:55 pm
content: Quote from: Psi on July 10, 2025, 02:39:47 amIn my experience it's more about the person doing the certification.I had people help me to pass the tests and design checks. Others from the same company were saying that their advice is to "redesign, good luck".For a certification you might meet some insufferable people who will do everything in their power to make your device fail. Like failing it because your 50 mm long cable doesn't have UL certification, only some European one. It really depends on the person.

author: John Coloccia
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2025, 04:25:18 am
content: To answer the original question, threatening to fire you without supporting you is unreasonable.

author: Muffins
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2025, 01:22:26 pm
content: I've been meaning to get back to this but now I've got a bit more of an update.So I've been looking into the compliance stuff and trying to figure it out. From what I understand so far an electrical product will need to comply with some directives set by the European Commission in order to be able to add the CE mark to a product.One of the directives is theLow Voltage Directive, which has many harmonized standards under it, most of which are not applicable to the product.The product is basically a fancy IOT LED Driver, powered by a wall wart Meanwell PSU.One of the standards that is applicable is the Safety standard,EN 62368-1:2014/AC:2015. This is apparently required if you want to sell anything electronics related in the EU. Right now it's not clear if the product has to be sent to a lab for the testing associated with the standard, or if it can just be done in house. What I do know is that the testing house wants around £8k for the testing of this standard.Obviously the boss does not want to pay this at all. He reasons that because the PSU is certified for safety, the whole product is compliant for this standard. I have no way to argue against this, I doubt this argument will hold up to inspection by an external entity or if that will even happen. It seems that people currently making similar products for us do not send them out for testing at all. Which makes me think they are really setting themselves up for some trouble if someone were to actually check if any of the products are compliant.I've no idea how to really find out information about this. I asked the testing house to remove the safety testing from the quote, I guess we can move forward with that and have the EMC stuff tested. I'll start applying for jobs in October.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2025, 01:31:25 pm
content: Quote from: Muffins on July 30, 2025, 01:22:26 pmWireless ?if so that adds another whole pile of testing stuff

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2025, 01:37:40 pm
content: Well, your boss is kind-of right about it. If you don't include the power supply with your product, and your input is less than 50V, don't have a battery built in (there might be others) then LVD is not applicable to you. Even if you include the power supply, there are ways to avoid testing, but it's best to get all the CE related documentation from Meanwell in that case.Quote from: Muffins on July 30, 2025, 01:22:26 pmI think you should hang in there. Product certification is not an easy thing to do, but it's very often part of the job. On my day job, it's not even the LVD that I need to apply, it's the ATEX directive. LVD is easy-peasy.If you feel lost, get a manager consultant who can help with certifications. Don't take the first suggestion by a nobo/certification agency, they want to test things to all the standards if they smell money.Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on July 30, 2025, 01:31:25 pmTrue, RED.

author: jc101
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2025, 01:52:46 pm
content: This article is an interesting read:https://incompliancemag.com/complying-with-the-eus-emc-directive-without-3rd-party-testing-2404/My local test house pointed me to it on a recent project.I don't think LVD applies, unless you sell the PSU as part of the supplied system as a whole. Anything powered by an external supply, I take along a typical supply that is used when testing. I could sell the PSU's as separate items, so people could buy a device and a PSU, but they are separate unrelated items.It may help to speak with more than one test house, some are more helpful than others.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2025, 04:29:02 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on July 30, 2025, 01:31:25 pmActually that is quite doable. The hard part is knowing which tests apply. For BLE you can use this document for example:https://www.bluetooth.com/bluetooth-resources/bluetooth-low-energy-regulatory-aspects-document-rad/which explains in detail which tests from the EN 300 328 (downloadable for free) apply to your device. EN 300 328 has very clear instructions on the test setup. The only tricky part is needing a spectrum analyser which works up to 13GHz but an 8GHz model will get you quite far. With the two documents mentioned I got a product (with the BLE chip on the board I designed) through RED and FCC in one go after doing all the pre-compliance testing in my own lab.