Avoiding China for PCBs - anyone tried S Korea? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: peter-h
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 12, 2023, 07:33:03 am
content: Chinese are good for consistent boards but comms ranges from hard to impossible and often one tends to conclude they do it deliberately.I have tried to establish comms with firms in S Korea but while I sort of managed a few, their prices were basically UK prices, so a pointless exercise.

author: nigelwright7557
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 12, 2023, 07:40:59 am
content: I use JLCPCB (Hong Kong) and rarely have a problem.On the order form there is a notes area where you can add extra instructions.

author: slavoy
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 12, 2023, 07:42:36 am
content: Quote from: peter-h on July 12, 2023, 07:33:03 amWhich one?

author: peter-h
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 12, 2023, 07:45:09 am
content: To clarify: this is forproduction, not small qty for which JLCPCB is ok. There are also low volume Korean firms but about 5x more expensive than JLCPCB.The topic isnon Chinaand whether anyone here has tried it.

author: bookaboo
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 12, 2023, 08:02:40 am
content: Our local CM swears by Eurocircuits for our productions runs, most of which are in the low 1000's. Though I find them more expensive than aforementioned JLC, I can only assume there's some SMT line specifics that explain their preference.Do you find JLC quality varies on high volume?

author: peter-h
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 12, 2023, 08:48:52 am
content: The topic isnon Chinaand whether anyone here has tried it.Endless threads on JLCPCB etc etc.Do Eurocircuits (where are they? - a common name) manufacture in S Korea?

author: bookaboo
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 12, 2023, 09:25:21 am
content: Maybe you should try North Korea, you might like it there,

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 12, 2023, 10:23:51 am
content: Quote from: peter-h on July 12, 2023, 08:48:52 amWhy are you fixated on South Korea? Eurocircuits has factories allover the world but their main office is in Belgium. They are super easy to work with and will fix a mistake without making fuss. I have been ordering from Eurocircuits for over 15 years and they have fine tuned their workflow to minimise room for error.

author: loki42
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 12, 2023, 11:07:59 am
content: How many units are you looking for per order? There's board houses all over the world but there's also premium Chinese ones with excellent communication, even for very weird stuff. Are you doing HDI, high layer count?

author: peter-h
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 12, 2023, 01:46:10 pm
content: 2k-10k circuits.I've been using China for 30 years. Some good firms, many crap ones. Nowadays a lot of gangsters too; recently spent a lot of $$$ retrieving a moulding tool (posted about it here).Not interested in discussing China in this case.Eurocircuits probably manufacture in China, at least some stuff. We used to buy from companies which did that. One pays about 2x more for it.Another factor with mainland Europe is that there is a lot of "unofficial brexit punishment" going on. For example the customs offices in BE, NL, DE, FR chuck UK packages into a corner and leave them to rot there for a few weeks, then quite often return them as "unclaimed". The couriers (UPS, etc) got this too but sorted it so the delays are much less. This attitude will calm down eventually but it is taking a long time.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 12, 2023, 02:05:54 pm
content: AFAIK Eurocircuits has a facility in somewhere like Romania - their webpage says manufactured in Europe

author: peter-h
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 12, 2023, 02:44:17 pm
content: I could send them a board to quote on but by the sound of it they are an agent for various PCB companies. I've seen many of those...

author: mon2
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 12, 2023, 02:50:39 pm
content: I think I can help. We have used S. Korean PCB shops for years while China was learning the ropes on halogen free laminates. Korea has technical leads, along with Taiwan but you will pay a higher cost.Suggest for you to contact Steve Ra of ACEROYAL in S. Korea:http://www.aceroyal.co.kr/product/tyntek/TYNTEK_CompanyProfile_EnglishVersion_2023_Korea%20ace.pdfWe met Steve when he used to live in Toronto and was at a local tech fair. Years ago, he moved to South Korea to expand his business. Openly his quality of PCBs surpassed the local vendors.One PCB shop that comes to mind is Seil PCB in Korea. As noted, the costs are higher. We can also share some excellent shops in China and believe that we are quite anal on quality. Some good shops in China include Founder PCB (used by Dell); Suntak PCB; China Fastprint; Yaxinda; Kingford PCB - each we have used for many years to date to supply HP / Dell / Intel and many medical accounts.https://m.seilpcb.co.kr/Trust Steve on his experience and hope it works out for you. Feel free to post back if there are any questions.BTW - as noted a few times in the forum - if you can, consider to attend the electronic fairs in HK this fall (October) - very likely Seil will be there and so will many other PCB shops. We are planning to also attend the Nepcon fair in Shenzhen to review some new Yamaha SMT equipment.

author: Mario87
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2023, 05:46:10 am
content: Quote from: peter-h on July 12, 2023, 07:33:03 amSo what you want are Chinese prices from a non Chinese supplier that is easier to deal with? Highly doubtful you’ll find that. Either you will pay more for the privilege of it coming out of a country where workers are paid more or you simply have to deal with the Chinese comms issues to get the cheap prices you want.Even as mentioned above, a lot of the non Chinese suppliers will have factories in China but because you deal with a UK or European rep it means you pay more.Speaking of Europe you say you want to avoid them because of brexit issues, there are minimal brexit post issues with proper couriers like DHL, UPS & FedEx…although I can’t speak for standard postal services.Honestly is does sound a little bit like you want to have your cake and eat it too by wanting a non Chinese supplier but still wanting to pay their prices. Can’t have it both ways

author: ansonbao
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2023, 05:57:41 am
content: I don't know what happened to you Peter, but I can understand what you said. This happens in some small companies. The main reason is that it is very difficult to manage a factory. According to my understanding, many companies in China are not good enough in managing factories. If something goes wrong later, they are less willing to take responsibility.My suggestion is that you need to find a responsible Chinese manufacturer for a long-term cooperation, so that you can worry less and save a lot.

author: mengfei
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2023, 07:31:26 am
content: OR maybe Philippines Perhapshttps://www.pcba-manufacturers.com/top-8-pcb-fabrication-and-assembly-manufacturers-in-philippines/https://www.pcbdirectory.com/manufacturers?country=Philippines&order_type=Production#:~:text=Production%20PCB%20Manufacturers%20in%20Philippines%201%20Antech-Enviro.%202,Express.%208%20Tianjin%20Xiangyuan%20Insulation%20Material%20Co.%2C%20LTD

author: liaifat85
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2023, 08:24:38 am
content: Which particular manufacturer did you use in China. Did you try PCBway?

author: mairo
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 13, 2023, 08:51:15 am
content: Look at the exhibitors list at Nepcon in South Korea (Seoul) for a list of local PCB manufacturers.Kingford PCB in China as mentioned above are quite good (I know you are not looking at China, just wanted to share a good experience with them).

author: peter-h
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2023, 09:27:10 am
content: I've used 10+ chinese companies over the years, plus some UK based front companies who manufacture in china.The problems tend to be the same. Comms problems (some probably just google translate), hacked emails with fake bank details sent (have to phone the company to check but most hang up the call if they hear English), tooling destroyed after 1 year since last used andthen they look totally puzzled why you went elsewhere next time, etc.Actually PCBs are "easy". Try making whole products out there. I used to do that. Tooling smashed, missing, companies going bust with our stock / work in progress. Last one went bust a couple of weeks after the $20k shipment was loaded onto the ship (and we lost all test equipment and a $10k injection moulding tool). Last moulding tool was retrieved via what would make a good gangster movie, with several payoffs... I stopped all product mfg there after that. I posted about it here...Thank you all for your input.

author: ansonbao
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2023, 09:42:17 am
content: Peter,you didn't find the right company. I understand the situation you met.You cooperated with the company that don't have their own mail system. Usually in China they use Foxmail totol,it is easily be hacked(the situation serious in China before).I suggest you cooperate with those companies that have brands in the market.

author: peter-h
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2023, 10:40:07 am
content: I think the email hacks are often inside jobs.For example I use JLCPCB for prototypes. Used ITEA but JLC are fine and much cheaper. Within a month or two of buying something from these, I get emails from a load of chinese pcb companiesBut yeah if you are on gmail, with a password like jlcpcb2022, itwillbe hacked. In the West no real business uses gmail.

author: HwAoRrDk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2023, 11:25:22 am
content: Quote from: peter-h on July 13, 2023, 10:40:07 amYeah, most likely some employee leaves and takes a copy of customer list with them to a new company. Or an employee sneaks a copy of the customer list out the metaphorical back door to their buddy who works at or runs a prospective competitor.At least once a month I get an email from some Chinese PCB company that I've never heard of trying to promote their services. (And those are just the ones that make it through spam filtering.) But I've only ever done business with a handful of PCB manufacturers: JLCPCB, PCBWay, ALLPCB, Elecrow. So one of them must have spilled my email address.

author: peter-h
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2023, 11:31:59 am
content: Exactly.There is a lot of basically criminal behaviour there.And China is the world capital for hacking. I run a few servers and they are attacked, mostly from China but also some from Russia, at 1-10HzSome I have put behind Cloudflare (which is free for nonprofit bodies) and there I block China and Russia in the firewall rules. Of course with a VPN they still get in, but far fewer.

author: AndyBeez
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2023, 12:32:54 pm
content: May I ask your motivation for avoiding Chinese PCB fabrication? Considering that 99% of the parts placed on the board will be Chinese, possibly using a fabrication process using Chinese made machines and Chinese raw materials, are your concerns to do with intellectual property, or production and quality control? If you want Chinese prices, cut out the western middle men and pay Chinese factories direct. Just because South Korea is in south east Asia, it does not mean Koreans should be paying themselves at Chinese, or even Cambodian wage levels.There is certainly nothing more productive than being able to pick up a phone and speak to a knowledgeable human at the sub-contractor, who speaks the same language and is in the same timezone. But this situation has not existed since the 1990s when the G7 'club' dashed towards globalisation, and China reciprocated by exporting their unemployment.I note my 'Korean' Samsung and LG kit all says on the backMade In China. Which is the same origin as my Apple and Asus kit. btw, South Korea is renowned for its high volume ship production, which is only possible by outsourcing component(block) production to mainland China. So unless you visit the SK fab house and watch your boards passing through the tanks, is there any guarantee that your product will remain south side of the DMZ?btw Vietnam is an emerging market.https://www.mokotechnology.com/top-10-pcb-suppliers-in-vietnam-2022/

author: Black Phoenix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2023, 12:38:12 pm
content: Quote from: HwAoRrDk on July 13, 2023, 11:25:22 amAll of this is true. I am in Shenzhen, Mainland China and also Hong Kong.That is the modus operandi of it. Last company I do a job for one of the project managers had set a parallel company and was "syphoning" customer from his employer to his own company owned by him and his brother.Main boss (who is German) knows but can't do anything (the guy family have connections with the CCP).Good thing is that the guy is incompetent in the technical side and the international customers don't go directly through him but through the office in Germany (the main money making of the company).The only reason why he still is there is because how good he is in getting customers in Mainland China and the fact the ones he "stole" come back after problems, plus his connections.

author: peter-h
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2023, 01:36:54 pm
content: QuoteThe main motivation is the difficult and occassionally devious communication.Then the fairly clear interest in simply shafting the customer. For example we lost $2k when a vendor's email was hacked and we got fake "new bank details".There were clues indeed, in the email headers, etc, but I forgot to check those and decided it was probably real since the account was in the US, and so many Chinese businesses are involved in tax evasion, this made perfect senseAnyway, clearly their gmail account had been compromised, but they just told us to f**k off and pay again if we want the goods. Absolutely no interest in any discussion. Then the tooling destruction at 1 year, etc.QuoteThey won't be actually by value, not by some way, but you aren't far off as regards component count. Obviously a major difference is that I don't need to deal with whoever makes resistors, etc.

author: Veteran68
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2023, 01:57:24 pm
content: Quote from: peter-h on July 13, 2023, 10:40:07 amIf you're on ANY hosted email platform and use stupid passwords, you will get hacked. This isn't exclusive to Gmail.Quote from: peter-h on July 13, 2023, 10:40:07 amNot many use the free "@gmail.com" service, if that's what you're referring to. But many large western corporations use Google for email and office productivity. It used to be called Google Docs, then something else, now Google Workplace. While their email address might end in "@bigcompany.com" it's still very much the exact same Gmail platform that free "@gmail.com" users are using. I have my own hosted Google email domain, in fact, have for near 20 years, since they first offered it. There is zero difference in the platform. The only things that might make them a little more secure is that with enterprise Gmail you can enforce MFA.My employer, a reasonably large multinational manufacturer, was on Google for email and office productivity apps for 10 years, up until a couple of years ago when we migrated to Microsoft's M365 platform -- which is itself just another hosted platform like Google's. Subject to the same hacking or hijacking when companies or users set it up insecurely or use stupid passwords.

author: peter-h
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2023, 02:22:00 pm
content: QuoteNo business should be on any of these platforms.joe12345@gmail.com just gives the business away as being a totally amateurish outfit.I agree re google hosted email. I would not use it for other reasons.

author: mengfei
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2023, 01:59:31 am
content: if they can't have their own mail system maybe better usehttps://proton.me/mail

author: peter-h
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2023, 09:22:22 am
content: Hmmm, I can tell you that nearly all people who use protonmail are doing (or planning to do, when they join up on a forum) something malicious.And same goes for most people using a VPN or a TOR browser, notwithstanding all the "privacy" and "civil liberties" arguments. I happen to know quite a lot about this, unfortunately

author: AndyBeez
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2023, 11:28:54 am
content: Quote* applies to other nations

author: peter-h
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2023, 01:35:13 pm
content: That's true but Chinese are particularly focused on doing that, probably because they are not good at developing their own ideas and technologies. There is a little bit of innovation there but really only a very little bit. The rest is just copied.This is probably a factor for someone making complete products out there, or even getting bare boards made there where the end product is identifiable. I never put the product P/N on the notation of any PCB I get made out there. With the (above mentioned) high mobility and lack of ethics of their workforce, they won't be stealing just customer email addressesObviously firms like Apple have a lot of their own people at say Foxconn watching stuff, but I bet you they won't be leaving any confidential material lying around there.

author: sam512bb
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2023, 02:05:55 pm
content: Good day all,I have had excellent service and PCBs fromhttp://quickturnpcb.co.kr/located in S Korea. I have been ordering PCBs from them for over 10 years and their PCBs are very high quality, very fast, and customer serivice is fast and responsive.Cheers,Sam

author: peter-h
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2023, 07:24:32 pm
content: That's really interesting - thanks.I tried them a few years ago and they didn't reply to emails. I will try them again.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2023, 11:36:36 pm
content: Quote from: peter-h on July 13, 2023, 10:40:07 amActually many businesses do (as gmail works well enough) but they have their own domain so you don't see the email is handled by gmail.

author: Veteran68
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2023, 01:50:10 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on July 14, 2023, 11:36:36 pmYeah I tried to explain that up in reply #26

author: peter-h
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2023, 10:59:11 am
content: As I said, I know google offer google hosted email; my point was that any company with a xxx@gmail.com address is more than likely to be a bunch of cowboys.This is ever more off topic but google runs some stupid spam filters. A while ago I ran a test with a friend on gmail, in Greece. Gmail would dump a one-word email (with just "hello") every time. I am sure it won't do it today, because google is changing things all the time, but I periodically email ~1.5k people on a forum I admin so I see all kinds of stuff.

author: NorthGuy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2023, 04:24:51 pm
content: Quote from: peter-h on July 13, 2023, 02:22:00 pmLots of companies in the US use google for their email. When I try to answer them through our server, google often put my letters into a spam folder. When I suspect that this has happened, I use a gmail account. And voila - the same text pasted to gmail always reaches the destination. Always. So, there are lots of reasons to use gmail.I also noticed, when people first contact you, they sometimes use weird gmail account. This is because they don't know you and afraid you may spam them later. Then, once the communication is established, they switch to normal email.Therefore, weird gmail address is not an indication of anything.Anyway. Your approach to Chinese companies is totally unfounded. As everywhere, there are good ones and bad ones. I'm sure there are good and bad companies in UK as well.

author: stone
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 31, 2023, 03:31:40 pm
content: If you want to contact a Chinese company, you need to find a real factory. Many are traders without their own physical factories

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 31, 2023, 04:04:07 pm
content: Quote from: NorthGuy on July 23, 2023, 04:24:51 pmGmail is provided by Google