Doubt HDD impact contact - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: renan88657
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2024, 11:35:38 pm
content: I finished copying the files to my 2.5" external HDD. I ejected the HDD in Windows 10 but the enclosure case LED was on and then I went to pull the USB 3.0 cable but when the cable came out of the PC port my hand hit the side of the HDD case and the case moved slightly to the right of the table. Did this event cause damage to the HDD?

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 11, 2024, 01:15:37 am
content: Run a chkdsk /r in Command Prompt to check.

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2024, 02:57:51 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on October 11, 2024, 01:15:37 amBetter yet, check the SMART attributes.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 11, 2024, 03:08:34 am
content: Quote from: amyk on October 11, 2024, 02:57:51 amThat too, but be mindful that it might not show a failure for sectors if it hasn't tried to read from or write to them yet.

author: renan88657
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2024, 09:13:51 am
content: The impact was with my hand on the side of the HDD case. It was on the table and moved to the left after the impact, but it didn't fall to the floor. I pulled the USB 3.0 cable from the PC and it came out immediately. My hand hit the case. I know that HDDs are fragile when impacted.After ejecting a 2.5" HDD in Windows 10, why does its LED stay on? Some people say that there are several models of the same brand and some models turn off after ejecting in Windows and other models do not turn off after ejecting in Windows.

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2024, 09:35:48 am
content: The important thing is whether the disk spins down when "ejected", not the LED.As Halcyon said, run something that reads the whole disk. If that works, nothing happened to it.Probably nothing happened.

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2024, 10:01:30 am
content: Actually, the important thing is whether the heads have unloaded. I think virtually all relatively current HDDs (and all 2.5" ones) have head unload ramps that take the heads off the disk surface and lock them. Once the heads are no longer flying over the surface, the shock resistance increases by at least an order of magnitude - normally to several hundred g.There are two forms of unload... The normal unload/load under s/w or f/w control, and the Power Off Retract. The load/unload cycle is performed after a preset idle period, and (probably) unmount. The Power Off Retract happens immediately on loss of power and uses back-EMF from the spindle motor to drive the heads onto the unload ramps and lock them. Because this is less controlled (louder and harder on the mechanism), the HDD spec will indicate a lower limit for these than the normal controlled load/unloads.You can find both counts in the SMART data (no. 192 and 193). The important thing is that heads are already off the disk surface within a few ms of power loss, so head crashes or spurious writes cannot occur and it becomes much more shock resistant.P.S. Several laptop brands, eg. Thinkpads make a feature of 'active protection systems' where an accelerometer on the motherboard detects that the laptop is in free-fall and unloads the heads before it smashes onto the ground. It might trash the case, but the data should be safe.

author: golden_labels
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2024, 10:55:06 am
content: Just use the drive as normal. Don’t waste your time on doing tests, other than those you’d do if all this didn’t happen.A hand is too light and soft to produce significant forces by just randomly flying around and hitting things. 2.5" HDDs are expected to work in laptops, which are much harsher environment.

author: newbrain
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2024, 11:59:57 am
content: Modern mechanical HDD can resist shocks of hundreds of G for a few mswhile operational.If a distract hit of your hand can deliver such kind of blow, I would not want to be around you in any situation.

author: renan88657
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2024, 12:00:33 pm
content: This auto-parking technology was implemented before the 2.5" HDDs came into existence, so do all HDD models of any brand have this auto-parking?In my case, I ejected the HDD using Windows 10, but the LED remained on, so I thought the HDD was working at the time of the crash.Some people report that there are several models of the same brand, and some turn off after ejecting, while others do not turn off after ejecting.I have two Kesu HDDs purchased on Aliexpress. Inside the case, there is a WD and an HGTS. I read that the Chinese reset the SMART so that the disk is shown as healthy and has few hours of use. If they reset the SMART or modify the firmware, the auto-parking function is disabled?

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2024, 12:03:49 pm
content: You can hear if the disk is spinning or not and you can hear when it parks.Everything from China is fake until proven otherwise, but it's unlikely that they change any setting, because why?

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2024, 03:51:57 pm
content: Quote from: renan88657 on October 11, 2024, 12:00:33 pmWARNING:Seems to be a well known SPAM bot (or something, if a real person, they seem to spend all day, creating apparently pointless threads, hundreds of times, often with Ali-express stuff).It is tricky to link to (can have hundreds of copies of threads, round the world), because admins/mods delete the threads.E.g. :https://forums.truenas.com/t/doubt-hdds-buy-in-aliexpress-test-health/12982Usually plonks Ali-express link(s) and Ali-express stuff, sooner or later.QuoteOnly given one link as an example, usually if you search for them, there are dozens or hundreds of them, round the world.N.B. AI/ChatGPT or whatever, may change the exact messages.EDIT: More here:https://www.techpowerup.com/forums/threads/doubt-hdd-buy-in-aliexpress.314778/It also links (via google) to a particular Ali-express shop, but I'm NOT linking to that place. As I suspect they are behind that SPAM bot.EDIT2:https://community.wd.com/t/doubt-firmware-and-smart/286192Example, of alternative message style (but same SPAM/source):https://www.tek-tips.com/threads/doubt-sponge-enclosure-case-hdd.1831564/EDIT3:Thread on here (this forum) about that SPAM bot (or whatever it is), here:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/capacitors-used-in-dvd-drives-sata/EDIT4:Example list of links (i.e. Demonstration of SPAM intent):https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/416145-Doubt-contact-hand-in-HDDhttps://forum.hddguru.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=44725https://maker.pro/forums/threads/hard-disk-damage-impact-contacts.301423/https://forum.core-electronics.com.au/t/doubt-hdd-impact/20999

author: golden_labels
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2024, 08:39:36 pm
content: MK14: the thread seemed sus to me, in particular with the fake screnshot. I decided to respond in case somebody has a similar problem, and just to give the benefit of doubt if my troublemaker detector needle is a subject to a parallax error.But if this is spam, reporting this to moderators directly would do more good. Thanks for spotting the issue!

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2024, 08:45:47 pm
content: Quote from: golden_labels on October 11, 2024, 08:39:36 pmThanks!I have contacted the mods (reported).Just on Reddit alone, there are about 100 (VERY approximate, I haven't counted) of their SPAM (or whatever) things, almost all, deleted, but are still mentioned.Example (so far, this one has avoided deletion):https://www.reddit.com/r/techsupport/comments/1fymzom/doubt_hdd_impact/As it might get deleted:Quote

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2024, 09:03:34 pm
content: Thanks, good catch.I vaguely recall that DVD capacitor guy, pretty sure he was not a spammer but simply nutsI already noticed that the OP here has a tendency to ignore answers and just keep repeating the same questions pointlessly (which is why I couldn't be bothered to post more than a few borderline snarky sentences), if it's the same guy (and it does seem so) it explains everything. BTW, he existed before ChatGPT was a thing and hasn't changed much, so it isn't machine generated.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2024, 09:06:54 pm
content: Quote from: magic on October 11, 2024, 09:03:34 pmIf you look at the following one (I've refrained from posting ALL the links), you can actually see that all of its responses, seem to be a 'mechanical' SPAM bot, and make no sense, and totally ignore everyone's responses.I.e. It surely must be a spam bot.https://forums.tomshardware.com/threads/doubts-about-damage-to-my-external-hdd.3857063/EDIT:Ok, on reflection (going to that website again, link in this post, reading it again), there does seem to be some partial responses, so I'm NOT sure, what exactly is going on.But anyway, creating hundreds (I don't know the exact quantity), of identical (or similar), threads, on a huge number of forums (and similar), is SPAMMING by definition.Regardless of if it is fully or partially, automated, or even if done manually.

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2024, 09:25:20 pm
content: Now you are repeating yourself like a robotAgain, this has been going on for several years (including before GPT) and hasn't changed much since then. A bizarre obsession with some minor details, inability to find and understand answers to irrational doubts/fears/worries, and generally massive XY problems. And apparently still on a quest for perfect data storage.I will ask a different question: why would anyone waste a machine's time to produce something like that?

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2024, 09:34:19 pm
content: Quote from: magic on October 11, 2024, 09:25:20 pmPython bot script error, on line 239Python bot script error, on line 239Python bot script error, on line 239Python bot script error, on line 239Python bot script error, on line 239Out of stack space, BotScript prog#367#REBOOTINGQuote from: magic on October 11, 2024, 09:25:20 pmI suppose it is a VERY big world, with a huge number of different people.So, there must be quite a few, rather strange, unwell individuals.So, I agree, that does make sense.

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2024, 09:46:06 pm
content: There was also that "RF attack" guy and some others.Storage Guy's main problem appears to be unwillingness to do own research and to try solutions which require any effort. He doesn't want to be told how to test or verify something, but to be convinced that there is no problem. Any other answer is ignored right off the bat, while those he expects are still met with further doubts and questions that nobody is able to answer, and only the OP possibly could, but it would take learning, understanding, experimenting and basically work, and he doesn't want to work, he wants answers.Did I say nuts?editI am able to believe that this is an actual human simply because all of the above is merely a more extreme than usual form of behaviors that have been annoying me in some people since forever. You can sometimes experience a taste of it simply going to the "Beginners" section here, where people come with some alternative theories of electricity with weird paradoxes in them, and ask question about those paradoxes, but never accept the answer "you have no idea what you are talking about, please read up on fundamentals".

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2024, 10:25:42 pm
content: Quote from: magic on October 11, 2024, 09:46:06 pmYes, that makes a lot of sense, I agree!It would be nice to know for sure, what exactly is going on, and their situation.On reflection, I wonder if it is a sort of compulsive disorder, type of thing.A bit like some people, when they leave home, have to (compulsively) check that their door is locked, EXACTLY 25 times, before leaving home (not me at all, 24 checks and I'm good to go).So, maybe they are concerned that a tiny knock, on their external hard disk, might have broken it. So they then have to compulsively, ask on 50 (made up number) different forums, to 'CHECK' they have the right answer.If anyone seems to answer it (in some unknown to us, way, that they like, as you said, earlier), they then keep on asking (sometimes) ever increasingly bizarre and crazy looking, questions. Which (as I think you said earlier), essentially no one can possibly answer.E.g. (hypothetical, but potentially typical, although I admit exaggerated question, for dramatic effect) If the Electrolytic Capacitor, is switched on for exactly 1 hour, at exactly 36 degrees C, once every 2 months. How many years and months, will it last?Edit: Minor typo.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2024, 10:35:38 pm
content: Quote from: renan88657 on October 11, 2024, 12:00:33 pmCorrect, even the premium brands do not always turn off immediately when ejected (some OS's also differentiate between ejecting the filesystem and the hardware). But in general if you eject and then wait some time the disks will eventually reach their internal spin down timer and stop. Not sure if the heads are parked much earlier, someone else might know the details.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2024, 11:41:13 pm
content: Quote from: renan88657 on October 10, 2024, 11:35:38 pmNot a problem at all. Especially portable HDDs have fall / impact sensors and will lift / park the heads quickly; they are designed & engineered to survive drops on hard floors while being on.

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2024, 05:07:40 am
content: Quote from: Someone on October 11, 2024, 10:35:38 pmI'm yet to see a disk enclosure which blocks spindown commands from reaching the disk, and premium my ass if one ever doesIf, OTOH, your OS doesn't issue those before device disconnection, then maybe you should consider another one. But I suppose Windows does.editHmm, maybe it could be the case that software has no drivers for ATA passthrough on given USB bridge, since AFAIK this is not entirely standardized and I''m not sure if there is any "shutdown" command in the USB Mass Storage spec. I think I recall seeing issues like that, where spinning down, SMART, etc just didn't work on some particular chip on Linux many years ago, but started to work later.Quote from: Someone on October 11, 2024, 10:35:38 pmDisks can be requested to spin down after some time of inactivity, but this is never the default.That being said, many enclosures do command idle disks to spin down after a while.Head parking is a common default on laptop disks and usually after less than a minute. These things quickly accumulate hundreds of thousands of load/unload cycles.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2024, 07:33:50 am
content: Quote from: magic on October 12, 2024, 05:07:40 amI have a LaCie by Seagate here that exhibits all the undesirable behaviours I described above, cost a premium, solid aluminium chassis, but crap experience ejecting/unmounting it (on all the major OS's).

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2024, 07:43:16 am
content: Quote from: magic on October 12, 2024, 05:07:40 amPulled another random brand name external disk:spins up as soon as the power adaptor is on (no computer connection required)spins down on eject requestspins up again after disconnecting the USB connection15 seconds later spins downAll sorts of crap behaviour out there in the real world.

author: renan88657
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2024, 09:21:45 am
content: Why do some 2.5" HDDs not turn off after ejecting in Windows 10? Is this behavior common? Two people told me that they have several models of the same brand, some turn off, others do not, and this is a problem if when the hand hits the HDD case, the mechanical arm and the needle scratch the HDD. My HDD is very quiet. I only saw the LED turn on after ejecting in Windows 10. I have the models Seagate ST500LM030, WD WD10JPVX-08JC3T5, HGTS HTS541010A99E662enclosure cases USB 3.0 Orico 25pw1 and Kesu 2530If Windows 10 eject fails and does not power off the HDD, is there any other protection against hand shocks on the side of the case not damage or generates bad secxtors in hdd?

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2024, 10:50:35 am
content: To renan88657 (if not a bot or something)If the data on such drives (or anywhere) matters and/or is important.Then back it up and keep a suitable number of copies, on different devices.Some people are happy with three copies in total, on at least two different types of media. Some people also suggest, keeping the data in at least two different locations (i.e. one off-site).Overly worrying about one specific device, is not a good idea. Back up the data, then if that drive, does fail, you are covered.Summary:Take/make BACKUPS!

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2024, 10:58:24 am
content: This doesn't answer the question...

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2024, 11:14:43 am
content: Quote from: magic on October 12, 2024, 10:58:24 amYou're right, it doesn't answer the question.But it does suggest, what they should be doing.

author: renan88657
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2024, 10:14:38 am
content: If the 2.5" HDD is ejected in Windows 10 but remains connected in operation, what is the position of the actuator and mechanical arm? no read/no write?

author: DavidAlfa
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2024, 06:47:25 pm
content: Quote from: MK14 on October 11, 2024, 03:51:57 pm+1https://www.tenforums.com/drivers-hardware/216001-doubt-hdd-impact-contact.html#post2652045https://www.tek-tips.com/threads/doubt-hdd-impact.1831807/https://www.reddit.com/r/techsupport/comments/1fymzom/doubt_hdd_impact/

author: Haenk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2024, 11:38:40 am
content: I give him the benefit of the doubt, as it might help to post your question on several forums to make sure you receive an answer.And that Ali product does not seem like an advertisement at all; any reader will certainly make sure to *not* buy this $random_crap.And on a technical side: The head will move to a "crash zone", once transfer is done, especially on 2.5" drives. That's not the head parking after power down, but an area without data present, so in care of a headcrash, the data area is recoverable.To actually crash a 2.5" there is quite some force necessary, probably in the area of forcefully throw it on a concrete floor (unless it's reading/writing).

author: renan88657
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2024, 02:07:42 pm
content: My 2.5" HDDs are a bit old, I don't know if they have the function of having automatic parking technology only when inactive? no read/no write/parkMy models are: WD10JPVX-08JC3T5 and HGST HTS541010A99E662Auto park technology has evolved in recent yearsIn the reports of people I see some 2.5" HDD + enclosure case USB 3.0 after being ejected in Windows 10 they remain connected and operating

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2024, 04:42:33 pm
content: Any 2.5" HDD recent enough to be 1TB in capacity like yours (one Hitachi, one WD) will have unloading ramps and parking technology. Now get over it.

author: renan88657
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2024, 04:49:16 pm
content: These models are old, from 12 or 13 years ago. I think there are many updates to the park system, including the ability to enter autopark when the HDD is connected and working but without reading or writing. Some HDDs only have Park when the power goes out. I contacted WD but they said it was discontinued and they had no information about these models.

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2024, 05:23:24 pm
content: Quote from: renan88657 on October 14, 2024, 04:49:16 pmIf WD cannot satisfy you, then nobody and nothing can satisfy you other than buying new drives. I suggest that you do this rather than continuing to ask these questions.

author: renan88657
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2024, 04:29:59 pm
content: In Windows 10, does ejecting the 2.5" HDD + USB3.0 case turn off the drive or not?

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2024, 04:37:38 pm
content: Quote from: renan88657 on October 15, 2024, 04:29:59 pmAs has already been discussed, it probably depends on the drive/usb adapter and maybe system settings. Just put your ear against the drive enclosure and tell us if it has stopped spinning. Then you can tell us! Why so difficult?

author: renan88657
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2024, 05:05:01 pm
content: my hdds very quiet no noise

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2024, 05:44:49 pm
content: Then it's turned off.

author: renan88657
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2024, 06:11:25 pm
content: Does the plastic enclosure case for 2.5" HDD provide any kind of protection against shocks to the case on the table without damaging the HDD through the needle scratching the magnetic disk?

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2024, 07:03:51 pm
content: I don't know. Does it? All I've seen is a square of foam that you were complaining about in another thread.You know very well by now that the heads are parked when the drive is not spinning and can withstand hundreds of g. Every time a question is answered, you go off on another tangent!

author: renan88657
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2024, 07:43:18 pm
content: I asked Seagate chat and they said that the 2.5" HDD was not turned off after ejecting the drive in Windows 10 the disks kept spinning with the needle on top

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2024, 04:20:50 pm
content: Quote from: MK14 on October 11, 2024, 08:45:47 pm"classicsamus87" is literally one of the many names used on this forum by the gentleman who was obsessed with his DVD drive and video game collection rotting away. "cloudff7", which you mentioned in an earlier post, was another name used on other forums by the same guy. Seems he is back...https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/electronic-device-storage/msg4478155/#msg4478155I'll check with the mods whether they want to ban him, yet again.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 17, 2024, 11:28:13 pm
content: Yep. Matches previously banned users: tiago1986, classicsamus87, robertart, johnrodrigues, carlosff2 and tiago1986.

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2024, 05:26:06 am
content: Those threads were always going nowhere.Each time there is somebody new to learn it the hard way

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 18, 2024, 06:41:47 am
content: Quote from: magic on October 18, 2024, 05:26:06 amThe trouble is, we tend to err on the side of caution and not be over-zealous with the ban button. People are free to mostly post whatever. Banning users isn't taken lightly and we triple check that we are actually dealing with a previously banned user, or a spammer/scammer/bot before taking action. If I can't make a call one way or another, I tend to flag the account as "Watched" for other mods/future reference, with my notes.Sometimes all the information isn't there right at the beginning, but you guys reporting your observations is always a massive help.

author: Haenk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2024, 12:23:15 pm
content: (Having dealt with customers in computer-related stuff for more than half of my life, I see no suspicious questions here. Customers sending in multiple dozens of hand written pages, error protocol printouts etc. - boiling down to "yep, it's dead and needs to be replaced" did happen on a regular base. There *are* people who don't know a lot and tend to ask a lot, leading nowhere. Nervewrecking, yes, bad intentions, likely no. Sidenote: Banhammer or not is fine with me, I will not critize that decision...)

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2024, 12:50:55 pm
content: Quote from: Haenk on October 18, 2024, 12:23:15 pmIt seems to be INTENTIONAL trolling, in this case.E.g. The supplied images (including via other forums, to get the bigger picture), are often dated 2015 or 2021, which makes them sound non-genuine, as they should be considerably more recent, if genuine.Another example, is that on some forums, they can speak good English, and write long coherent responses, but on other forums, they just keep on posting SPAM (like) posts.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2024, 12:59:22 pm
content: Either it's deliberate trolling, or obsessive/compulsive behaviour which they can't control. In either case these threads are never going anywhere: No answer is good enough to put the OP's mind at rest, there's always another question, another concern, another thread. Wasting everybody's time, whether it's readers of those threads or posters who try to help. A ban is the right response in my opinion.

author: golden_labels
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2024, 09:46:43 am
content: Halcyon: thanks. Both for taking action and for delaying that action.Haenk, ebastler: I’ll paste my comment fromthe other threadof this user:Quote from: golden_labels on October 13, 2024, 08:53:24 pm

author: Hogwild
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 08, 2024, 01:52:44 am
content: OP's post was cross-posted here:https://www.bleepingcomputer.com/forums/t/802564/doubts-hdd-25/

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 08, 2024, 08:04:25 am
content: I thought it has been established that identical posts from this guy are all over the Internet?Not sure what's so noteworthy about it.

author: golden_labels
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 08, 2024, 01:04:19 pm
content: They’re already banned too.