Need oscilloscope suggestions from a reputable brand  - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: 5370H55V
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2019, 12:59:38 am
content: I currently work in a university and I'm in charge of helping my professor purchase some lab equipment before some unused funding expires.I've recommended the SDS1104X-E but he's not too eager to go with a brand he hasn't heard of. He's an engineer from the 70's and wants something from a reputable brand like tektronix or keysight, and he's willing to pay a bit more for it.For reference, our school uses the EDUX1002A for instruction and he wants something with a higher bandwidth (>70MHz) and 4 channels.Features/options like serial decoding and the ability to do a frequency sweep/bode plotwithouthacking would be a bonus as well.Are there any scopes that fit the criteria I should be looking for within the $1500-3k range with an educational discount?

author: JDubU
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2019, 01:04:36 am
content: This new Keysight 1000x series scope fits your description:https://www.keysight.com/en/pdx-2969966-pn-DSOX1204G/oscilloscope-70-100-200-mhz-4-analog-channels?cc=US&lc=eng

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 23, 2019, 01:06:43 am
content: Quote from: 5370H55V on May 23, 2019, 12:59:38 amObviously the new 4CH Keysight 1000X series is what he needs. 200MHz.

author: maginnovision
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2019, 01:14:17 am
content: It's what he needs and maybe all he'd accept.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2019, 01:25:39 am
content: Quote from: 5370H55V on May 23, 2019, 12:59:38 amTell him to get up to date with current offerings and then show him this:Quote from: tautech on February 25, 2018, 05:28:44 am

author: tkamiya
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2019, 01:52:19 am
content: Quote from: maginnovision on May 23, 2019, 01:14:17 amThis may be something like why investment bankers buy IBM stocks rather than new hot companies. When something goes bad, no one will accuse him of making a wrong choice if it's IBM. But he will never hear end of the insults if it's something no one knows about.Also, when dignitaries visit, rows of TEK is a lot more impressive than room full of Rigols.

author: DaJMasta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2019, 02:02:38 am
content: The Keysight seems to be the right product for the situation, if you want to fight the good fight and try to get another one considered, maybe you can convince him to squeeze a Siglent or a Rigol into the mix for comparison/future purchase considerations. That said, one of the value adds for some of the name brands is more comprehensive dedicated teaching materials, so if part of what's required is premade teaching materials/onboard tutorials/etc., then that could be a consideration that could sway you.Also worth mentioning that if you've already got a distributor in mind, you can probably request a demo if you're going to be buying several units through them.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 23, 2019, 02:35:39 am
content: Quote from: tautech on May 23, 2019, 01:25:39 amOh come on, you know very well the suggested Keysight does the exact same Bode plot.And Keysight offers additional education material, kits, and complete learning systems for schoolshttps://www.keysight.com/au/en/industries/education.htmlhttps://www.keysight.com/main/editorial.jspx?id=1928332&cc=US&lc=eng

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2019, 03:21:13 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on May 23, 2019, 02:35:39 amBut really can we be sure.Check this post on early KS Bode plot where the plot result resolution doesn't appear to be as fine:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/msg1368562/#msg1368562In both cases AFAIK the Bode plot FW was still in its infancy whereas each should be better today.Dave, haven't you got both the 4ch KS and 4ch X-E with which to do this ?Oh, and don't forget you'd be comparing 2GSa/s against 1GSa/s scopes of which the 1GSa/s one can do 3 Bode plot traces.Some one put up an example that's easy to replicate and let's have a proper head to head shootout.Or if you like I can bring a SDS2352X-E along to the party for an apples vs apples 2GSa/s Bode plot comparison.

author: maginnovision
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2019, 04:15:25 am
content: It's sort of irrelevant. The person in charge doesn't want siglent.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2019, 04:41:42 am
content: Quote from: maginnovision on May 23, 2019, 04:15:25 amChanged that for ya.Dave is a very fortunate position having all this gear in his lab, the skill to implement an apples vs apples comparison, the gear to do a video about it (like he did for FFT) and a popular YT channel on which to share it.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 23, 2019, 04:49:03 am
content: Quote from: tautech on May 23, 2019, 03:21:13 amIf you care so much, you can do it.The Bode plot functions on these scopes are mostly just educational additions, not serious R&D tools, so arguing over the finer details is kinda, meh.And you forget the point of this thread, the OP doesn'twanta Siglent, and you know what, that's a perfectly acceptable position.The Siglent could in fact costmorethan the Keysight because someone has to write (or re-write) that class educational material.Remember, theyalreadyhave the EDUX1002A, likely with educational material written around its use.This sort of thing is so important to big organisations that companies release products to directly market that one markets needs. e.g. the Fluke 27-II meter directly targets the military who have countless procedures and value written around the average responding 27, so the true RMS 28-II doesn't cut it.Absolute no-brainer for the school to chose the 4CH Keysight in this case. I'd go as far to say anything else is a dumb choice.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 23, 2019, 04:50:22 am
content: Quote from: tautech on May 23, 2019, 04:41:42 amAnd an audience who wouldn't give a toss about a Siglent vs Keysight Bode plot shootout.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2019, 05:07:28 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on May 23, 2019, 04:50:22 amDoes it have to be restricted to these two ? No.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2019, 05:12:49 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on May 23, 2019, 04:49:03 amA good and very valid point.However when it comes to the cost of a class setorsets the advantages of a much smaller outlay can out-way the cost of writing new course notes.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2019, 05:37:51 am
content: Quote from: tautech on May 23, 2019, 05:12:49 amI can tell you don't work at a University.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2019, 05:57:52 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on May 23, 2019, 05:37:51 amI can tell you the savings of a purchasing cheaper brand and despite course notes needing re-writing got me into this industry.Some chose to wear blinkers, some don't.

author: tv84
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2019, 09:07:48 am
content: Quote from: 5370H55V on May 23, 2019, 12:59:38 amI think this doesn't mean the professordoesn't wanta b-brand.IMO tautech has space to try to convince the OP convince the professor.BTW I've just bought a Rigol so no Siglent sponsorship.... unfortunately...

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2019, 09:30:32 am
content: Best thing in this situation is go and talk to regional sales reps for the two major brands (Tek, Keysight) and play them off against each other. They both have educational offerings so you can likely squeeze some further discount out of them if you play ball hard enough.Then you get a row of Teks or Keysight scopes, a nice shiny lab to show off and a precedent for screwing them for cheap gear later

author: Mr Nutts
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2019, 09:57:13 am
content: Quote from: 5370H55V on May 23, 2019, 12:59:38 amAs a former student of a college that mostly had Tek scopes I implore you to convince your prof to buy something else - literally anything elseAll of the Tek scopes we had were slow and horrible to use. It's no fun and scopes from other vendors like Keysight and Lecroy are at a completely different levelI don't know Siglent but I doubt their scopes are as poor as what Tek throws into the marketYour prof sounds a bit like the ones at my college, long away from industry and no idea how much the scope market has changed since the 70s

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2019, 11:17:10 am
content: Quote from: 5370H55V on May 23, 2019, 12:59:38 amI'd look at the R&S RTB2000 series too. I think R&S has some educational specific additions to support courses so teachers don't have to write everything from scratch. The RTM3000 (a higher end and more expensive model) can be switched into an educational mode where some features are disabled so students can't mess with some settings. Perhaps the RB2000 has the same feature.

author: Ice-Tea
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2019, 11:34:45 am
content: Quote from: Mr Nutts on May 23, 2019, 09:57:13 amUnless you've used Tek vintages spanning decades, I don't think that's an opinion you should post here...

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2019, 12:41:20 pm
content: Appearantly the Tektronix MDO3000/4000 series are slow but other models aren't that bad. The TBS2000 series is nice for example. Expensive but definitely not slow and not horrible to use.Cost savings can be relative too. If cost savings mean a teacher needs to spend a lot of his/her own time on rewriting courses then I can imagine buying a scope which doesn't come with an educational support package is not going to happen. Most teachers can do without extra work anyway.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2019, 04:45:59 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on May 23, 2019, 04:49:03 amI beg to differ. Recently I wanted to know the frequency response of a simple circuit and the bode plot on the scope I have here worked just fine for that purpose.

author: 5370H55V
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2019, 05:18:07 pm
content: Thanks for all your suggestions so far! The keysight DSOX1204G sounds right up his alley and I've written up a doc recommending it and explaining some of its features.The E36312A power supply is interesting as well, since they claim it can work in conjunction with the oscope via benchvue. Has anyone tried it and can comment on how well this works?Personally, I've had my eye on the siglent and it would have been my top recommendation, but unfortunately I don't control the purse strings here. And with keysight scopes already in place, moving up from the EDUX1002A to the DSOX1204G in this situation makes more sense than changing platforms and is easier to justify from the administration's perspective.Still saving up and planning to buy the SDS1104X-E as my first personal scope though.Quote from: Mr Nutts on May 23, 2019, 09:57:13 amHaha, that was almost exactly what my labmate and I said after he rejected the siglent scope recommendation.He's an old-school controls engineer who worked at IBM and Boeing way back in the day before getting into academia decades ago, so I doubt he's kept up with developments in the test equipment scene.We have a few older Tektronix scopes laying around that I've tried, including a DPO2024 I think. Didn't think it was that great, and the damn thing takes several minutes just to boot up and pass self test. Was shocked at how much they go for even today.

author: BillB
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 23, 2019, 05:24:49 pm
content: Quote from: 5370H55V on May 23, 2019, 05:18:07 pmIt's almost as if he doesn't spend several hours a day lurking on EEVblog forums! And he calls himself an addict, err.... engineer?! pfffft.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 23, 2019, 10:29:07 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on May 23, 2019, 04:45:59 pmOf course, you needed a simple bode plot and it did it, that's it's job. That's why I said "mostly"What I mean is the feature is not exactly going to have the commercial bode plot tools quaking in their boots.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2019, 10:58:09 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on May 23, 2019, 10:29:07 pmMaybe, maybe not but -for example- digital inputs on oscilloscopes are likely to have put a big dent in logic analyser sales. I'd expect the bode plotting on oscilloscopes to get impedance & equivalent RL/RC circuit cursor readouts as well. That would eat away a lot of territory which is currently occupied by network analysers.

author: snoopy
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2019, 01:19:57 am
content: Quote from: tautech on May 23, 2019, 01:25:39 amThe phase response doesn't look very smooth. Is that the best it can do ?

author: KaneTW
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2019, 01:24:40 am
content: I'd recommend a RTB2004. With the current promotion and their steep educational discounts (~30%) it's right in your price range, an excellent scope and very cheap.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2019, 12:33:45 pm
content: Quote from: snoopy on May 24, 2019, 01:19:57 amAt low signal levels there is too much noise to measure the phase accurately. You'll see the same effect on a network analyser.

author: tv84
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2019, 02:28:37 pm
content: Quote from: KaneTW on May 24, 2019, 01:24:40 amIn my region "very cheap" has other meanings.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2019, 03:58:49 pm
content: Quote from: tv84 on May 24, 2019, 02:28:37 pmI agree.. 3200€ is not very cheap, even in wealthiest countries of EU.

author: KaneTW
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2019, 06:38:17 pm
content: 3200EUR with the 30% education discount (assuming it applies, but with a larger purchase I'm sure it will) is 2.2k for a fully optioned 300MHz scope. That's extremely cheap.

author: tv84
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2019, 07:05:04 pm
content: Quote from: KaneTW on May 24, 2019, 06:38:17 pm30% on top of a 42% promotion???Where do you get that idea?

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2019, 07:15:18 pm
content: Quote from: KaneTW on May 24, 2019, 06:38:17 pmIt is a very good price. Not cheap. Word cheap means very low priced as in you can easily buy it with pocket money. 200-300€ might be called cheap when a scope is in question.And even that is a stretch for some people.. But now I'm nitpicking. Sorry.

author: KaneTW
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2019, 07:20:49 pm
content: Quote from: tv84 on May 24, 2019, 07:05:04 pm30% was the educational discount I got when I bought both promotioned and non-promotioned R&S items (and when I was quoted Keysight stuff from the same distributor), so it's reasonable to assume they'll also apply it here.Quote from: 2N3055 on May 24, 2019, 07:15:18 pmI guess we can argue semantics, but let's just call it a very good deal (and within the OP's price range) and leave it at that.