Electronics whiz Elon Musk is now the world's richest person - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: VK3DRB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 08, 2021, 08:09:30 am
content: Musk is "worth" $190 billion. The arts/economics degree electronics whiz kid is smart. Most qualified engineers would take roughly 130,000 YEARS (if they lived and worked that long assuming $75K per annum salary) to make what he made justin one day yesterday; and 2.5 MILLION YEARS to earn his total net "worth".Is he worth it?https://www.theage.com.au/business/companies/elon-musk-ousts-jeff-bezos-as-world-s-richest-person-20210108-p56slw.html

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 08, 2021, 08:36:14 am
content: He's not "worth" $190 billion. He holds TSLA stock that is worth that much but if he tried to liquidate it all and live like a billionaire with no involvement in any of his companies, he'd probably be worth half as much or even less, because there's no way he'd be able to offload so much stock.Now whether TSLA is worth $700+ bn given VW is only worth a third of that and sells 100x more cars, that is an interesting question!!

author: VK3DRB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 08, 2021, 10:27:40 am
content: Net worth includes stock, bank balances, real estate, cash, gold etc. Having that much stock just means it is less liquidity and more susceptibility to volatility, unlike government bonds. Hence some of these super-rich are quietly offloading smaller portions of their stock; an indication that the market is nearing its peak or even overheating.By the way, VW don't sell 100X Tesla; try only 20X according to 2019 figures and about half of the sales are to the Chinese market. Volkswagon is a company convicted of fraud on global scale which is the biggest reason it is worth a lot less. The history of the stock price supports that argument.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 08, 2021, 01:09:55 pm
content: Tesla's P/E is 1638. At least not negative, like previous years.SP500 average is 35.Keep pumping that balloon, for sure it's not gonna burst.

author: S. Petrukhin
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 08, 2021, 05:31:59 pm
content: VK3DRB, are you ready to kiss Musk's ass? Probably, it would be even more useful to this topic in the forum.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 08, 2021, 05:33:07 pm
content: Quote from: VK3DRB on January 08, 2021, 08:09:30 amIs he an electronics whiz by any definition?! I think his talent is in being visionary and tenacious, not in having any particular engineering chops.

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 08, 2021, 05:53:18 pm
content: Who the hell called that pot smoking head Electronics wiz?

author: VK3DRB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 08, 2021, 09:59:18 pm
content: Musk's cars are full of electronics and advanced software. It is under his direction it all came to be. However I bet you he does not even know how a 555 timer works. Nor does he need to. "Electronics whiz" is a term used by the media. We had an expert at self promotion here who made a fortune under the guise of "electronics whiz", who was really just an importer and retailer, creating a hugely successful electronics chain. His name was Dick Smith. He was in reality no electronics whiz, but the media thought otherwise. His self-promotion work only inferred he knew a lot about electronics.Musk being a pot smoker has not affected his ability to become the richest person in the world. Barrack Obama was a pot smoker. And so is Britain's richest entertainer, Paul McCartney.

author: VK3DRB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 08, 2021, 10:03:42 pm
content: Quote from: S. Petrukhin on January 08, 2021, 05:31:59 pmNo, not at all. Musk's stinginess is surpassed by Bezos who upped his lowest paid workers form $11 per hour to $15 per hour.The big issue is inequality. Its root cause is greed.

author: S. Petrukhin
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 08, 2021, 10:26:32 pm
content: Quote from: VK3DRB on January 08, 2021, 10:03:42 pmI do not know the history of the appearance of capital at Musk, I have not heard that he created something unique and popular in the garage with his own small money, which raised capital. I think this is just a successful huckster, like everyone else, who has successfully guessed from the probability theory where the gold mine lies. Hundreds or thousands of them were wrong, and he was lucky.I also had a time when money suddenly fell on me almost out of thin air, I can say from my own experience: you feel like a great sage at once, I forget that this is a matter of chance. Life brought me back to earth.However, in today's World it's a bit better than the rest - he spends money on production, spends money not on quick profits bought/sold, but on engineering work and I'm happy for my colleagues that they have the opportunity.

author: engrguy42
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 08, 2021, 10:47:47 pm
content: It's one thing to show the world you can get them what they want for cheap like Sam Walton did with WalMart...But if you can convince the world that you have NEW TECHNOLOGY that can SAVE THE WORLD, the sky is the limit.People desperately want to believe that all NEW TECHNOLOGY is awesome, by definition, and will save the world. It makes them feel good. Renewables, electric vehicles, dancing robots, AI...We'll see in 20 years or so.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 08, 2021, 11:02:59 pm
content: Musk has teams of talented engineers, but the guy himself is a visionary and a bit of an asshole. I think it's a lot of credit, more than deserved, to say that Musk is a genius. Steve Jobs was a similar type of person. Visionary and very motivational, although he was more art-oriented. He didn't design the iPhone though, as others often say, instead his engineers did. They are the ones who should get the most credit.

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2021, 01:40:43 am
content: Quote from: VK3DRB on January 08, 2021, 10:27:40 amThis is a commonly quoted excuse. The counterargument I've seen notes that, the market cap of the US stock market is ~$40T. The market can bear it. Hell, it can bear every billionaire selling every stock they own, over say a five or ten year period. That's fast, compared to say government-scale rates of exchange.And yes, liquidating it would affect the value of at least the stock in question, which is whywhen they normally, and regularly, sell off that stock, it is done on a publicly announced schedule.Like, I mean, they're not stupid, they're not going to saturate the market by dumping stocks. Which is illegal or something anyway. Come on now, y'know?Quote from: tom66 on January 08, 2021, 11:02:59 pmAs any good capitalist -- he got his start in apartheid SA from family wealth, and maintains it through exploitation of his many laborers. You're welcome to read whatever political slant from that you like -- just understand, if you celebrate these people, then you are also celebrating all the hardships they have created, and profited from. If that makes you uncomfortable, maybe just don't do that, then.Tim

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 09, 2021, 01:52:27 am
content: Quote from: T3sl4co1l on January 09, 2021, 01:40:43 amBullshit. He started his first business with no money whatsoever. He slept at his "office" because he could not afford an apartment. Also those "exploited" ended apartheid and turned country into a shithole ridden with crime including widespread rape and murder. They literally live worse than when they were oppressed.

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2021, 02:11:33 am
content: Quote from: wraper on January 09, 2021, 01:52:27 amI won't dip my toe in the apartheid denial, but your other fact appears to be in error:https://www.businessinsider.com/tesla-elon-musk-net-worth-2017-10#four-years-later-in-1999-they-sold-zip2-for-307-million-earning-musk-22-million-he-invested-more-than-half-of-his-earnings-to-cofound-xcom-an-online-banking-service-9There's also the story of selling emeralds in New York City, not exactly an ordinary teenager's experience. And his family owning substantial stock in an emerald mine, at that point in history makes it rather hard to separate from the institution in question.Perhaps these aren't actual fact, either (Musk denies the emerald story; but he obviously has a vested interest in doing so). It seems there are few primary sources, among the top hits on this subject. I don't particularly care to spend more time on the subject, but I would be interested in reading primary sources if others are.And besides this one example, one doesn't need to go far to find other unseemly figures. VW was mentioned earlier in this thread; along with BMW and others, during the 1930s and 40s, they were, well, literal Nazis. I mean, it's not even Godwin's law, that's simply a historical fact. They knew what was going on, and along with everyone else, went along with it, because, well, what are you going to do? Big businesses can claim a great many things in press releases, but the one and only thing they always agree on is money. Among their priorities, morals and human well-being are coincidental at best.Tim

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 09, 2021, 02:29:54 am
content: Quote from: T3sl4co1l on January 09, 2021, 02:11:33 amWhat fact? His first business was Zip2 which started from nothing. And I do not deny apartheid. What I say is that cure turned out to be worse than illness.Quotehttps://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1211054942192119808?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1211054942192119808%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.insidehook.com%2Farticle%2Fhistory%2Ferrol-musk-elon-father-mythsQuoteFrom your own link:Quote

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2021, 03:22:32 am
content: thats a nice little puff piece. learn about motor drives in your dads precision masonry equipment at the emerald factory. adds up for metake the back breaking jobs in Canada because.. you are used to it from installing old ass 50lb 10kW inverters at the emerald factory. then decide to put a conveyor belt on the road. Make your truck look like.. a nicely cutemerald.I think it is hard to deny. Everyone kept saying the Tesla truck is a polygon, a glitch car.. but no... its just jewelry for rich guysDoesn't he do shit studded in diamonds also? The MO leads to a match people. Pretty sure I saw some diamond studded stuff on his website.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 09, 2021, 05:12:47 am
content: Hardly a whiz kid. Business man? Sure. Whether he is a good one is yet to be seen. The cars his company produces are average at best. However he can prove himself with SpaceX and Starlink.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 09, 2021, 05:58:32 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on January 09, 2021, 05:18:15 amSales of Tesla is insignificant in Australia (and many other parts of the world). Tesla is facing very stiff competition from "real" car makers in the EV segment. Also, Tesla sells their cars at a loss. They make their money from "green" certificates in the US.

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2021, 06:34:06 am
content: Quote from: Bud on January 08, 2021, 05:53:18 pmQuote from: VK3DRB on January 08, 2021, 09:59:18 pmFor as annoying as Musk is to some people, at least he isn't an annoying, stereotypical pot head: "everyone's down on me, man."I don't get the contempt he receives for his ability to turn a bit of dough into the loaves and fishes. Envy is dangerous emotion. Jealously is a curse. Both things mis-targeted only lead down a path to self harm.

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2021, 06:54:16 am
content: Quote from: wraper on January 09, 2021, 01:52:27 amA bit of both. I think having the Canadian citizenship was a springboard. As for him being a dick, that comes from him having a shitty father. These things combined made him prosper if not well liked.

author: hans
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2021, 07:05:29 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on January 09, 2021, 05:18:15 amFor crying out loud, let's not call Tesla cars reliable. And please also let's not call all of their inventions a pioneering innovation. It's the same crap like Apple. Apple products also break down and that's not surprising, because anything can. But coincidentally Apple products are designed in such a dick move way, that you can't repair them because there are no parts. They are designed in such a way, that if you attempt to repair them, you're likely to break something because someone can't afford to use a screw but must use adhesives. They are designed in such a way, that if you swap 2 non-security critical parts on 2 identical products, they won't "pair" due to serial numbers and remain broken.Apple and Tesla think this is a good way of doing business with their customers. Their customers buy into a brand and hype, much rather than a product, and a large part of that is the CEO of the company. Meanwhile, customers are ripped off once their product does break down, because they would have to buy into the manufacturers own monopoly on repair and servicing.I'm not saying that this means their product is by definition bad. In fact, I think that Apple and Tesla do offer compelling options for many use cases. And also, this whole right to repair thing is arguably *FINE* if this is how *THEY* want to do business. The problem is the whole industry adapts these techniques which extrapolate things for consumers. Do consumers really want smartphones that are 0.5mm thinner with glued on glass back panels that break the moment you bump it into a car door? Alright, I heard you like a glass panel, let's make it so you cannot replace the battery anymore that will die down in a couple years time anyway.Coming back to the Tesla quality and reliability thing. They are not outstanding. The number of defects per car is substantially higher than any other car brand:https://thelastdriverlicenseholder.com/2020/06/25/j-d-power-blasts-tesla-quality/https://www.bizjournals.com/sanjose/news/2017/11/29/tesla-model-3-production-defects-fremont-tsla.htmlYou could argue that it's in the same order of magnitude as other luxury car brands such as Audi or Volvo, which similarly have many extra buttons that can break down. But Tesla doesn't even seem to get the basic stuff right like the panels. How can anyone at quality control think that a 50k$+ semi-luxury car with huge panel gaps should go to a customer. HOW?! You won't even get to see such a defect on a VW Up or Citroen C1, which even we Europeans we would literally call a shopping trolley car, and probably most will beat the crap out of it.And then I think, well what's so innovate about Tesla cars? Sure to pack the batteries in a huge floor is very novel and perhaps a pioneering point, which allowed to really pack alot of kWh into their electric cars at the time. But then, what else is up there?The interior design? I have heard build quality is not that great compared to the germans.Big centralized screen? Please give me a button to change the heater or wipers, please.Is Tesla the first manufacturer to bring humor into their cars again? Like "ludicrous" driving setting or fancy show modes? Well, maybe they have a branding and marketing department after all, because it's all a bunch of bollocks.Their autonomous driving option? I don't have any reason to be that impressed yet, it's still a 1st-gen design and will likely be ancient in a few years time.Other decisions from Tesla are irresponsible at best, either for their customers or their employees. So as you can see, I'm not really a fan of them, and for sure I really can't understand how their stock is so overvalued.

author: ogden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2021, 07:17:55 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on January 09, 2021, 05:58:32 amReally? Could you please provide links to resources supporting your claims? I know that Subsidies for Teslafinishedat the end of 2019. TSLAreportsdo not show any "sell at loss" either.

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2021, 07:50:21 am
content: Quote from: ogden on January 09, 2021, 07:17:55 amOne thing to remember is that although the initial green tech initiatives are ending their course, other car manufactures are subject to the mandating of higher taxes on cars that require fossil fuel to run. Cities such as L.A.All other car manufactures are subject to this tariff in proportion to the number of cars sold that are smog spewers. In this regard, Tesla owners don't pay extra just to own the car.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 09, 2021, 08:06:52 am
content: Quote from: hans on January 09, 2021, 07:05:29 amYep! Exactly.

author: ogden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2021, 08:07:57 am
content: Quote from: Ed.Kloonk on January 09, 2021, 07:50:21 amWell... Good for EV carmakers then. Time ago many laughed about idea of "battery car" manufacturing, laughed about idea to land rocket booster. Now (same) skeptics say that Tesla and SpaceX had head-start and it is unfair to competition. Go figure

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 09, 2021, 08:09:19 am
content: Quote from: ogden on January 09, 2021, 07:17:55 amReally? You didn't know this? I though this was fairly common knowledge. Tesla making a profit has nothing to do with the manufacture of vehicles. Anyone who knows anything about Tesla and their vehicles seems to know this? Those subsidies for EV still exist in the US today.Here is a brief overview. This is not the only source of the same information either, feel free to investigate yourself.As I said, Tesla are becoming irrelevant in the EV market. I have a Volvo sitting in the garage that does everything a Tesla can do (legally) and then some. You have real car makers like Volvo, Hyundai, Ford, VW etc... investing a lot of R&D in EV and semi-autonomous vehicles long before Tesla were a thing.

author: ogden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2021, 08:53:11 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on January 09, 2021, 08:09:19 amDidn't know about Regulatory credits sales. Thanx. Same story: good for battery-car makers. FYI Tesla automotive gross margin @Q2 was 25.4% (pdf). [edit: ~17% w/o reg.credits] This is far from "selling cars at loss" as "expert" in video tries to prove. We shall take in account that profitability of whole company is set at target 1..2%, excess (including money from regulatory credits) goes into growth. Look at growth and buy some Tesla share for your kids[disclaimer: I am pertrolhead, far from Tesla fanboy].

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2021, 10:12:34 am
content: Quote from: ogden on January 09, 2021, 07:17:55 amYup. It's nonsense. Tesla has a gross margin of about 20% on every car they sell. Less on Model 3/Y, more on Model S/X.Most automakers would KILL for a 20% GM.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 09, 2021, 10:22:52 am
content: Quote from: tom66 on January 09, 2021, 10:12:34 amWould you like to link to figures? 20% on every car? That is laughable and demonstrably untrue.

author: ogden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2021, 10:49:03 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on January 09, 2021, 10:22:52 amI already linked pdf which says automotive GM is 25.4% including "green" certificates and 17% when we deduce them:https://tesla.gcs-web.com/static-files/f41f4254-f1cc-4929-a0b6-6623b00475a6

author: sandalcandal
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 09, 2021, 11:00:16 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on January 09, 2021, 08:09:19 amNeed to watch that video fully but looks like a rant video with opinions based off 2nd hand news articles. Edit: I really hope you're not basing your opinion on this video alone and pushing it so heavily without looking at some first hand information.Here is a video (1:13-8:49) by a business analyst (with very pro-tesla interests) using first hand information and the actual numbers rather than flinging around hearsay. In particular looking at how the company balances up without regulatory credits. Tesla is not losing money on their cars or as a company even without regulatory credits but the extra cash is obviously beneficial to grow the company.Well worth watching this debate about Tesla's value as a company. It address lots of points people have brought up or probably will bring up.Edit: Another albeit less less productive debate (same pro-tesla bull vs different bear)https://youtu.be/19Xkj2PKOV4

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2021, 11:08:42 am
content: Their gross margins are 35%+ for made in China Model 3 according to analysis.https://thenextavenue.com/2020/06/10/teslas-model-3-profit-margin-is-35-and-it-can-double/You'd need to ask Sandy Munro what his thoughts are on the newer Model 3's but they are profitable on a per car basis, after all manufacturing costs. Can't recall where I got the 20% figure from but remember reading it from investor analysis.Note I don't have any investment or personal interest in TSLA (I hold some S&P500 in an index tracker, but <2% of that is TSLA), other than hoping that they succeed as a company (or that some other big EV succeeds, like ID.3)

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2021, 11:23:24 am
content: Margin isn't everything. In the end the R&D needs to be paid for as well. It is not a secret that Tesla receives a huge amount of money for their CO2 emission rights (which in itself is insane because it means that for each EV out there, there is also an ICE vehicle creating the CO2 output on top of the CO2 output most EVs cause). The big question is whether Tesla can continue their R&D efforts at a sufficient level in order to stay ahead of the competition without the revenue stream from the CO2 emission rights. Either way I don't think Tesla will ever dissapear because the brand is so strong.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2021, 11:29:50 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on January 09, 2021, 11:23:24 amOf course R&D is an issue but no company burns R&D money without expecting a return (well, maybe with exception of uBeam etc...)Also Tesla only make about 10% gross margin from auto credits, so while it's non-zero, they're still profitable without them.VW spent over $91 billion on MEB, a single car platform that currently only underties ID.3, yet people seem to balk at Tesla spending ~$4 bn/year?The biggest problem with TSLA I have right now is their $700 bn valuation seems sky high, it's got to crash down to something more reasonable like $100 bn... right? I just can't see that being sustainable.

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2021, 11:35:59 am
content: Like him or not, personally I valued what he is doing or has contributed in space launching system, hard to argue about that.

author: sandalcandal
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 09, 2021, 11:36:53 am
content: Quote from: BravoV on January 09, 2021, 11:35:59 amYOU CUT OUT THE BEST PART OF THE TEST!

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2021, 11:39:55 am
content: Quote from: sandalcandal on January 09, 2021, 11:36:53 amLOL, still impressive though where a fat big ass metal thingy can do that while falling, even eventually it turned into pieces at the end, but pretty sure next time there is a huge chance of a successful landing.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2021, 11:48:13 am
content: Quote from: tom66 on January 09, 2021, 11:29:50 amThe big difference is that VW has the cash on hand and Tesla doesn't. Tesla needs to emit shares in order to get more money to spend. Besides that VW has a production capacity for the ID.3 which rivals Tesla's production capacity for all Tesla's models together. In the end Tesla is a very small car manufacturer with limited resources.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 09, 2021, 11:48:39 am
content: Quote from: BravoV on January 09, 2021, 11:35:59 amOh I completely agree. The stuff he is doing with relation to space/satellites, amazing. Their cars, meh. I can buy a Hyundai or Kia which is built better than a Tesla for less money.

author: VK3DRB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2021, 11:49:05 am
content: Don't know about you blokes but I drove a high end Tesla myself and it was one impressive car, especially the acceleration and responsiveness. BUT, it was not mine and I only drove it for a day. I have heard the build quality is generally not that good. I drive a Honda Civic since it was new 12 years ago and it is the most reliable car I have ever owned. Pretty happy with it, despite its relative lack of power. It does not attract the chicks, does not feed my ego and my down-to-earth Australian culture does not require me to drive a something like BMW or Mercedes to save face.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2021, 12:03:22 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on January 09, 2021, 11:48:13 amVW did a share offering to raise cash after the dieselgate scandal, and has done numerous other offerings. It's a common procedure as it's often cheaper than borrowing from institutional lenders.I agree that Tesla is small and I think VW represents the biggest existential threat to them. If they get ID.3 right and launch an ID.2 to represent the smaller Polo/sub-Golf market and the ID.4 to cover small SUVs, they may well have Europe sealed from an EV perspective. Getting success in US and China will be harder. And for VW, their biggest risk is PSA Group and the Chinese manufacturers.Definitely a good time to be an electric vehicle enthusiast. Want to change my PHEV Golf GTE for a pure electric soon.

author: VK3DRB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2021, 12:16:26 pm
content: I personally don't think Musk is worth even 1% of his so-called net worth. However, the meritocracy system allows some smart people to amass such an obscene amount of wealth and generally pay minimal tax. Worth should be somehow based upon how you help others and mankind. You'd be blind Freddy to think Alice Walton, "worth" $54 BILLION, is not at least just a little bit greedy when Walmart only pays their cashiers a lousy $10.78 per hour. Something is wrong when lowest paid workers can barely afford a decent meal for their kids or transport to get to work, whilst the super-rich are hell-bent on making more money than they know what to do with. Inequality is getting a lot worse in the US and other places (very evident during COVID-19) and I suspect this kind of greed might be a major cause of the civil unrest in the US.It will not be long before the world has its first trillionaire and my bet is he will make it from the tech sector. However, Gates is working very hard at increasing his "net worth" with most of his investments in the non-tech sectors, including a large investment in Walmart. There might need to be a global movement (or revolution) to limit the amount of wealth a person can accumulate, or at least share wealth more equitably. Easier said than done. History has proven society works better when there is incentive. I would like to see a society where people are rewarded in proportion to their real worth.

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2021, 12:41:41 pm
content: Quote from: VK3DRB on January 09, 2021, 12:16:26 pmHmmm .. so no more freedomof greedand right for collecting wealth, and if you are rich, your wealth must be distributed among those low life peasants ?I guess you are the socialism aficionado ? Any plan to migrate to Rusia or China ? Be warned though, every and any thing related to China, is evil.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2021, 12:49:55 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on January 09, 2021, 12:03:22 pmVW is a strong brand in both the US and China. AFAIK the ID.4 will be produced only in China AND the ID.3 alone has outsold all Tesla models combined in some markets already (for example in the Netherlands). But in the end the market for EVs is not that big in Europe so it makes more sense to produce in China and ship whatever is needed to the EU and the US. According to (recent) research from KPMG about 10% of the consumers in the EU is interested in buying an EV in the next 5 years versus 80% in China. The number of people is in the same order of magnitude so it is easy to see it makes sense to concentrate on China where it comes to EVs.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 09, 2021, 01:11:23 pm
content: Quote from: Halcyon on January 09, 2021, 05:58:32 am20-30% profit margin is selling at loss? Green certificate money goes into building new factories.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2021, 01:21:56 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on January 09, 2021, 01:11:23 pmBut without new factories there are no cars to sell. The big question is whether Tesla can still expand without the revenues of the emission certificates.One of my former co-workers was offered early retirement at 80% of his income. Much to my surprise he declined. It got clear to me once he explained to me that that last 20% of your income is the part you use to do fun stuff. Sure you can survive on 80% but no more fun stuff like holidays or buying something for your hobby.For companies it works the same way; enough money has to come in in order to maintain and possibly expand the product line. Otherwise it is only surviving and slowly moving towards being obsolete.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 09, 2021, 01:37:59 pm
content: Quote from: VK3DRB on January 09, 2021, 12:16:26 pmNet worth is not like having that money in cash, it's a virtual "money". Taxing net worth like lunatic Bernie Sanders suggested is ridiculous. It's like if government told you to sell part of your home to pay the tax as housing market price rises. Which happens to some extent as property tax, and then old couples are forced to sell their home in expensive area because they can no longer afford paying tax. Limiting amount of wealth would mean that private companies cannot have strong leadership, and would become the same ineffective jelly as governments. Even communists in China understand that this does not work.

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2021, 01:41:55 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on January 09, 2021, 01:37:59 pmI guess the OP is an extremist, more extreme than China that he hates so much.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 09, 2021, 01:42:33 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on January 09, 2021, 01:21:56 pmBeing in expansion stage does not mean you work at loss. It means that instead of stopping growth and paying dividends you choose to invest into expansion, which Tesla does very rapidly.

author: vad
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2021, 03:26:39 pm
content: Quote from: BravoV on January 09, 2021, 12:41:41 pmYou can strike off Russia from that list. Russia used to be commi state, where everyone was equal in their poverty, but that was over 30 years ago.The gap between rich and poor in that part of the world is now comparable to developed countries (for example, Russia’s Gini index is higher than Australian), while the tsar’s wealth (wealth available for Putin’s immediate personal disposal, measured by the wealth of his old buddies from kindergarten, wealth of his mistresses and family members, wealth of personal trainers, personal stylists, former bodyguards etc.) easily outshines Musk’s paper valuation.

author: vad
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2021, 03:53:51 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on January 09, 2021, 11:29:50 amSure, all investors are greedy idiots. But wait a minute, they can’t be greedy, if they waste money paying 7 times the stock price.TSLA stock today is worth what others are willing to pay for that stock now. Same applies to future prices. Today’s market price is the best approximation of the future price.PS. If someone can buy TSLA at $125 per share at the market today, or buy Bitcoin for $6,700 - be my guest. You will not only be able to prove me wrong, but also will have a chance to sell immediately at +500% profit, pay the taxes and feed the hungry. Any takers?

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2021, 04:27:26 pm
content: Quote from: vad on January 09, 2021, 03:26:39 pmHmmm ... you're right, I stand corrected as just realized the current "developed narrative" lately is stealthily shifted where its now white (as in caucasian) versus the evil China and the dictator Xi Jinping, while Putin no longer carry the dictatorship name tag anymore, and the calling is slowly fade away.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2021, 06:46:42 pm
content: Quote from: vad on January 09, 2021, 03:53:51 pmBubbles can and do happen. Just look at the first Bitcoin crash or the Dot-Com bubble.The only way Tesla is worth $700 bn is if they outsell every other automaker in the top 10 - right now they aren't even in the *top 20*.Sure, Tesla could overtake all of the other manufacturers, but I think a more likely outcome is they become a big player in the top 10, the stock market cools down for a bit, and they take on a valuation that is more in line with revenues.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 09, 2021, 07:16:20 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on January 09, 2021, 06:46:42 pmTesla in not only a car manufacturer. Also they do way less outsourcing than others. You can think about it as several times more car made per car sold. Say one company does only a final assembly, which amounts to 20% of a whole process but other company does 80% of total manufacturing. It would mean that second company produces 4 times more car per car. And thus has much larger manufacturing capabilities and expertise in different areas. Tesla has their own material R&D, they develop their own alloys no other company has. They develop their own batteries and develop production lines. That's besides solar, energy storage and other things. They are even into medical (not ventilators, happened before COVID).https://bioprocessintl.com/bioprocess-insider/therapeutic-class/instant-carna-tesla-touts-rna-bioreactor-it-is-developing-with-curevac/

author: vad
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2021, 07:28:50 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on January 09, 2021, 06:46:42 pmRight. And what is today’s Bitcoin price?The reason why TSLA, Bitcoin and house prices on my street are surging is because there is too much liquidity on the market. Investors can take loans at record low interest rates and put the money where they believe there is growth potential. And it looks like the investors prefer Tesla to VAG.

author: vad
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2021, 07:45:17 pm
content: Quote from: BravoV on January 09, 2021, 04:27:26 pmThe form of government and economic system is not the same thing. You can have dictatorships with free market economy (Singapore) and you can have socialist dictatorships (Soviet Empire).The developed narrative also shifts the other way. Russia’s GDP per capita at nominal values is now below China’s GDP per capita. What an insult to Russian chauvinism.

author: vad
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2021, 09:26:05 pm
content: In fairness to VW and petrol car manufacturers in general, I do believe that EV industry is driven by marketing hype. Investors are trying to follow the hype, ignoring the facts. And the facts are - the current EV technology, which is based on Lithium-Ion battery packs, does not provide significant advantages over cars with internal combustion engine.EV is not the future of transportation, but rather one of the types of vehicles that will exist on the market in the mid-term future. Similar to lawn movers and pressure washers. You can have a fancy battery mover, that is underpowered, has short range, is expensive and short-lived (been there done that), or you can have a Honda mover. You can have electric Karcher, or a powerful gas pressure washer. Both types of products exist on the market, and both types have their uses.I considered buying Model 3 for my wife a year ago. Did some math, decided against it, and bought her similar sized compact car VW Jetta that is as expensive to run as Model 3, half the price of Tesla, does not require hiring electrician to install 50 A outlet, and can be refilled in minutes anywhere.The most surprising part was electricity cost.Model 3 has rated economy of 26 kWh per 100 miles. Some users reported on forums 0.33 - 0.36 kWh/mile of actual economy, higher in winter, but let’s forget about that for a moment, and use the official 0.26 kWh/mile rating.I pay 23 cents per kWh for electricity (11 cents for actual power, and 12 cents is delivery charge).Putting charger efficiency and wiring power losses aside, 5.98 cents would buy me a charge that is good for 1 mile of travel (23 cents/kWh * 0.26 kWh/mile = 5.98 cents/mile)Today gas price at the nearby station is $2.16 per gallon. So for the price of a gallon, I can charge Model 3 enough to travel 36 miles (216 cents/gallon / 5.98 cents/mile = 36 miles/price of gallon of petrol)So thanks to greedy power distribution companies and low petrol prices, where I live the running cost of Model 3 is equivalent to running cost of petrol car with 36 MPG mileage rating - typical rating of a similar sized petrol compact passengers car.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2021, 11:06:43 pm
content: You have 'unreasonably' cheap fuel in the USA, though!Here, I can charge my PHEV on off-peak tariff at 5.5p/kWh (5 hours from 8.30pm). A full charge of ~6.8kWh costs 37.4p and goes ~20 miles. Cost per mile is therefore about 1.8p. Even on normal electricity rates at 15p/kWh that cost per mile is around 4.9p.When I have a BEV and put a 7.2kW charger in I would be able to charge up to 36kWh or ~125 miles per night on the cheap rate, depending on my use profile this could easily cover all of my typical driving with on-peak usage only being needed for the occasional road trip or mid-day charge.Whereas on petrol at £1.10 per litre (US$6.60 per gallon!!) my cost in the petrol-hybrid mode at ~45 mpg is about 11p/mile.So in the worst case electricity is half the cost and in the best case it's a sixth the cost.Now the other benefits:- I don't have to worry about annual oil and filter changes, nor being careful not to drive the car too hard when cold- My car 'de-ices' and 'pre-heats' in the morning from the electricity supply, so I've never got to scrape ice from the windshield, and I can pre-heat it remotely if I need to- My car 'fills up' overnight and unless on longer trips, I never need to visit a 'fuel station' and stand in the freezing cold for 5 minutes getting ripped off- I have instant torque - EVs are really nice to drive - and regenerative braking means less brake wear- I'm doing less damage to the environment and not causing health effects from pollution which harm the lungs of city dwellers

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2021, 11:52:03 pm
content: I don't think we need another pro / con EV thread here.

author: vad
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2021, 12:01:29 am
content: It is not that we have unreasonably cheap gasoline in the US, and you have unreasonably cheap electricity rates. The difference is probably due to redistribution through taxes and subsidies.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2021, 12:04:26 am
content: Quote from: VK3DRB on January 09, 2021, 12:16:26 pmProbably the actual wealth of Musk is like 1%. As others pointed out: if Musk dumps all of his Tesla shares the shares will be worth 0 the next day. Musk is Tesla and if he stops believing in it nobody does. He'll already have trouble unloading 0.1% of his shares. Also the worth of a person owning shares in a single company is highly volatile. IIRC Jef Bezos (Amazon) went from 200 billion to 150 billion. That is mostly due to share prices fluctuating. He didn't go to the casino and gamble it away.QuoteThat is not entirely true. A lot of wealth is invested in companies. Inflation makes sure that sitting on a stack of cash is making people poorer. Investing their money into the economy makes them richer. How well countries are run and taxed has a much higher influence. In some countries there are large groups of people which have no outlook at making a decent living due to lack of education and jobs. That is not just the case in the US but France is also a very good example.

author: vad
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2021, 12:05:29 am
content: Here is how Musk is going to spend all his money:“The CEO of Tesla and SpaceX plans to dedicate as much money as he can to colonizing Mars, and he's selling most of his material possessions in the process”https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.businessinsider.com/worlds-richest-person-elon-musk-dedicate-wealth-mars-colony-2021-1%3famp

author: VK3DRB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2021, 12:56:58 am
content: Quote from: BravoV on January 09, 2021, 01:41:55 pmBravoV, your guess wrong. Probably unlike you I have studied Chinese history and I have worked in China. In fact I was part of a team that engineered the very first computer manufacturing plant in China. I have a plenty of Chinese friends. I don't hate China at all. Its regime is another matter but I don't want this thread to devolve into a political discussion that you seem to want to stir up. I am not a socialist by the way.There is nothing wrong with fairness and equality. Some of the super-rich say anyone can achieve whatever wealth they desire "in a free country". Some religious charlatans selling the prosperity gospel preach that God will make you rich if you ask Him (just give us your credit card details first though). In India people are destitute "because they were bad people in a past life" - a perfect excuse for the rich to ignore the poor. People brought up on the wrong side of the tracks or in the wrong country have the opportunities stacked against them. Musk may have been born poor, but he is one in a billion who has hit the jackpot though "merit".There is nothing wrong with becoming wealthy. What matters is what the rich do with their wealth. If it is just to hoard more loot (greed) by exploiting others, that cannot be good. If it is used to make the lives of others better (altruism) in a fair and just way, that is a good thing. Unfortunately most of the super-rich fall into the first category.Consider this example... a billionaire only buys two new pairs of jeans per year, and a poor person cannot afford new jeans at all. Now if the billionaire shared a small portion of his wealth to help uplift 1000 poor people (through responsible taxation and good government) so the poor people can now afford two new pairs of jeans per year, the number of jeans manufactured every year goes from 2 to 2000. The jeans business is now booming. Simplistic example, but it shows growing inequality actually impacts economies negatively.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 10, 2021, 01:11:59 am
content: Quote from: VK3DRB on January 10, 2021, 12:56:58 amYou are one of many people who do not understand that there are only so many goods produced. If you give free money away, what will happen is inflated prices, not increased production and all-embracing happiness. And all those rich people do not keep all their money in the bank or cash. That money is invested in something, to take it back, they need to sell something, like factory. And if sell, to whom? The same rich person who have their money invested in something.You can make some small group of people happy by giving the money away. But in no way it will work on large scale. BTW if you didn't know, there is way more money than goods which can be bought for it. If that idle money is released to "peasants" for immediate use, it will cause immediate money devaluation and thus burning of any monetary savings.

author: VK3DRB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2021, 01:24:12 am
content: https://www.drive.com.au/news/elon-musk-had-an-unusual-reaction-to-being-named-the-world-s-richest-person-124918.html?trackLink=SMH1

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2021, 01:36:02 am
content: Quote from: tom66 on January 08, 2021, 11:02:59 pmAt least Steve Jobs really did have a deep understanding of usability (which is why IMHO Apple’s usability has suffered since Jobs’ passing), and while he wasn’t an engineer, by all accounts he did know a lot more about the underlying technology than a lot of people give him credit for. Yes, he absolutely brought the arts/humanities angle to Apple, but it was simply the lens through which he viewed technology: how can technology solve problems for users and for humanity as a whole?

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2021, 02:22:23 am
content: Quote from: tooki on January 10, 2021, 01:36:02 amYes, I agree with this. As far as I can tell, and whatever one may think of Steve Jobs, my view is all he had in mind was to release products that would make people's life better in some way. And with a touch of class. That's how he saw technology. I can't think of a single Apple product that wasn't designed with that goal in mind actually. I can't think of a single Apple product that was just a gratuitous display of technology.Elon Musk has a completely different mindset. Contrary to Steve Jobs, he seems to promote technology just for the sake of it, while only moderately, if at all, thinking about the consequences. He also clearly has a mindset tied to politics, whereas Steve Jobs, again as far as I can tell, absolutely didn't. This has multiple consequences. Musk's companies have been heavily subsidized, directly and indirectly. The amounts are gigantic.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 10, 2021, 04:13:06 am
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on January 10, 2021, 02:22:23 amYou don't know what you are talking about and how subsidies Tesla received compare to other car manufacturers. As of tax deductions for EV buyers, Tesla was against it for a long time since it negatively affects their competitiveness towards other EV manufacturers.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2021, 04:15:31 am
content: you know in terms of subsidies I wanna know why the hell Amazon even has a R&D subsidy, its a fucking ware house. Its like saying "i need goverment money to figure out my business logistics and management problems' under the guise of 'science'. It makes me suspicious of businesses receiving subsidies. Its probobly a bunch of BS laden with loop holes.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 10, 2021, 04:18:55 am
content: Quote from: coppercone2 on January 10, 2021, 04:15:31 amAmazon is not "only a warehouse". Its also AWS which actually brings more income than their retail part. Not to say there is much more than being a warehouse in regards to selling goods.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2021, 04:19:41 am
content: so its a help desk under the guise of r&dr&d brings to mind you know, stuff that can be taught in science class. Cloud storage is about as R&d as the bus station locker you can rent.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 10, 2021, 04:22:27 am
content: Quote from: coppercone2 on January 10, 2021, 04:19:41 amAWS does not appear and develop in vacuum.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amazon_Web_ServicesDo you really think that cloud provider with largest market share can exist without R&D?QuoteNot to say retail business does not exist in vacuum as well.What about Echo/Alexa, Kindle and other stuff?

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2021, 04:43:02 am
content: like maid service. not sure if secretary rentals (often not so synthetic as you think for advanced tasks! ask it something complicated that makes it useful and likely it will be a help desk employee deciphering it) qualify you for R&D. I think of new medications, increased process efficiencies, etc as R&D. Clearly the goverment does not but there might be a reason why Biden is so surprised that a fucking giant mail order business manages to get money from the goverment during the troubles of last year.It's like getting a microphone connected to a secretary that just listens and does nothing physical. You could do the same thing in 1920 if you wanted to.'miss just listen to this voice box and tell the gentleman on the other end of the line the time when he is too lazy to look at the clock and jot down some appointments for him and give it to the next shift'. (probobly happened half the time anyway when you get some broken russian accent yelling into the alexa box, as far as the news reports show).

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 10, 2021, 04:48:32 am
content: Quote from: coppercone2 on January 10, 2021, 04:43:02 amDude, you are so ridiculous it's not even funny. Amazon R&D budget is largest in the world. They spend way more than Google or Microsoft and develop hell a lot of things.https://www.forbes.com/sites/walterloeb/2018/11/01/amazon-is-biggest-investor-for-the-future/?sh=159f7ef21f1d

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2021, 04:51:10 am
content: all I see there is stroking where are the inventions and developments that helped the industry/country outTheir surveillance does not seem to stop crime either (as analysis in reports showed), and the web store is a huge vector for fake chinese crap. Most analysis of these amazon inventions seem to cite them as being bunk. I.e. most work is still done by people in ware houses in the instance of their robotics show cases, and alot of them seem to fail when you involve real world litigation and privacy boundaries.If it worked out there would not be irate politicians attacking them. Someone printed out a giant check to make fun of the problem and brought it into congress as I saw recently. Thats mad. They know its crappy thats why they are going after bezos like al capone. They are supposed to get a return on those discounts in other ways.. which are not presenting themselves in these guys case.It reads like a god damn joke, get rich in America then plan to buy an island off the coast of Italy (Cyprus according to rumors) to get away from taxes and other IOUs. That is like what the god father would wanna do. That's like literary the plot to die hard 3.

author: SVFeingold
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2021, 05:24:36 am
content: This thread really has it all. Gone through like 10 different topics over 4 pages. Hits every internet rant bullet point.Communism? Check. Wealth inequality? Check. Steve Jobs? Check. Linux somewhere in there? Check. Bold incorrect statements about the stock market? Check!

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2021, 05:47:23 am
content: It hasn't reached Godwin's Law point yet, so still have some juice in it

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2021, 06:25:01 am
content: Adolf has entered the game.