So apparently HP has some new calculators...but why can't I buy them? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: FenderBender
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2012, 11:05:41 pm
content: So I was roaming around the internet looking at calculators and I ran across some new HP calculators, but when I went on the USA HP website, none of them were there! Just the same old HP 50g, 35s, yadayada..Then I checked the UK HP website and lo and behold, there they were! They appear to have 3 new calculators, though I guess I would probably call them re-styling..HP 39Giihttp://www8.hp.com/uk/en/products/calculators/product-detail.html?oid=5154837HP SmartCalc 300s+http://www8.hp.com/uk/en/products/calculators/product-detail.html?oid=5265921HP 10s+http://www8.hp.com/uk/en/products/calculators/product-detail.html?oid=5265920Interesting...a company who started operations in the US releasing to other parts of the world first. I wonder why that is.These calculators aren't the top-tier models you guys are probably looking for, but they look respectable enough.Not sure if I care for the glossy finger-print magnet surface, but perhaps the white is good for that?

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2012, 11:30:03 pm
content: Well, that's interesting. The 300s+, basic model, looks like it has Casio's natural-VPAM feature; the LCD and formula layout looks identical. The button layout is different. I like my 83GT+ (Casio), but it has an odd problem where it will occasionally fade the LCD, lock up with junk on the screen and require a restart.

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 18, 2012, 11:31:36 pm
content: It's not an HP calculator to me if it has a = key!Try buying something here.http://commerce.hpcalc.org/and also notice he is selling a modded 30B call the WP 34S!http://commerce.hpcalc.org/34s.phpI have a 35S and it basically is a good old HP feel and look, although it doesn't have the double injected keys.

author: FenderBender
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2012, 11:40:31 pm
content: Yeah yeah. These are mostly high school/college calculators that need to meet testing standards.I'm wondering if they are looking to release a new RPN grapher...50g+? Or something

author: FenderBender
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2012, 11:41:48 pm
content: I did see that WP 34S thing. I wonder how it is

author: FenderBender
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2012, 11:51:48 pm
content: Very intruiging. The 30b actually seems like an excellent calculator. 30MHz ARM chip. Apparently it has good keys also.So this overlay seems very interesting. It might feel like you are not truly using an HP, but if you can get over that, seems nice.

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 18, 2012, 11:52:30 pm
content: Give it a try virtuallyhttp://sourceforge.net/projects/wp34s/files/

author: FenderBender
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2012, 01:35:04 am
content: Wow cool. Going to give it a try

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 19, 2012, 02:24:15 am
content: The exponent key placement on that 300s+ is ridiculous!It should be were the RCL key is.Dave.

author: FenderBender
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2012, 03:11:41 am
content: I think that's a fairly typical location for one...though I do agree that there is really no need for RCL to be so large.

author: FenderBender
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2012, 03:17:29 am
content: RE: HP "WP-34s"It looks very nice, but I just don't like the idea that the keys and overlay will probably wear out in time. Seems like you are buying a product that is fated to fail...well I guess that's just about all electronics these days, but I'd prefer my calculator always work andlooklike it was intended to.Is that a strange quirk?I do agree that it does seem like a very nice concept. If HP built this so-called WP-34s, I think it would be an excellent calculator, just I'm not too sure about this retrofitting skin thing.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 19, 2012, 04:12:43 am
content: Quote from: FenderBender on November 19, 2012, 03:11:41 amOnly on stupid oneFor scientific use It's like having the decimal point up the top and part of the function keys.Dave.

author: FenderBender
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2012, 04:33:45 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on November 19, 2012, 04:12:43 amYeah I agree. It's not like HP actually designed this thing. It's of course an Asian design with the HP logo stamped on it, but what else is new?I saw on the new Casio scientific calculators, they have a big 10^x key in approximately the same spot the RCL button is on the HP.

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 19, 2012, 05:49:32 am
content: Quote from: FenderBender on November 19, 2012, 03:17:29 amThis is why I mentioned the double injected keys of the past. They never wore out. But if you think about the WP34S, you can buy a replacement overlay very cheaply. That is better than silk screened keys that are garbage when worn out.Quote from: FenderBender on November 19, 2012, 03:17:29 amI think your strange quirk is the same as mine, expecting any quality in anything anymore.Quote from: FenderBender on November 19, 2012, 03:17:29 amI like it except for one thing, one register on the stack visible. After using an HP48 I really got used to seeing 4.

author: Dago
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2012, 08:18:17 am
content: Who even uses calculators nowadays since you can get an TI-89 emulator on your Android phonehttps://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.Bisha.TI89Emu&hl=en(Just kidding, I still do use a real calculator... sometimes)

author: T4P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2012, 08:24:50 am
content: the 39GII looks like it's a chinese design ... the picture gives it away And well the 300s+ is definitely a casio design my sister has one and natural-VPAM looks exactly like thisThe HP 10s+ on the other hand reminds me of a Sharp ...

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 19, 2012, 08:28:49 am
content: Quote from: FenderBender on November 19, 2012, 04:33:45 amAll Casio scientifics have had it in that location for the last 30 yearsDave.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2012, 09:22:24 am
content: The key layout is different on the HP, but the display graphics and LCD look the same -- down to the glyphs at the top of the LCD.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 19, 2012, 11:41:08 am
content: Quote from: tom66 on November 18, 2012, 11:30:03 pmI hate the VPAM operation.I still use old pre-VPAM Casio's.Dave.

author: FenderBender
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2012, 10:22:54 pm
content: What's wrong with VPAM?

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2012, 10:38:50 pm
content: I have no problem with it, but it is easily possible to turn it off: Shift+Mode->LineIO.I miss the features when using my TI-83.

author: FenderBender
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2012, 10:50:32 pm
content: I think I may do a low budget scientific calculator shootout.-Casio FX-300ES Plus-Sharp EL-W516X-TI 36X Pro-HP Smartcalc 300s(+)-Canon F-792SGAThat's what's on the list. Who knows when that will happen but I'm curious to see the results myself.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2012, 10:57:49 pm
content: Quote from: FenderBender on November 19, 2012, 10:22:54 pmIt's a triumph of marketing over functionality. Calculators should either work with direct entry--press a button, get a function--or they should have a full command line with text entry and line editing. The half-way, neither one nor the other stuff is just annoying.Most importantly, VPAM doesn't correspond to the way people think. If you are working a problem, your thinking goes "do some complicated stuff, now take the square root of the result". It doesn't go "in a few calculations time I am going to need a square root function, so I'd better press the square root key now so it's waiting for me when I get there". VPAM was invented by people who never did a calculation in their life.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2012, 11:08:43 pm
content: VPAM was designed by people who wanted to make calculators more useful for secondary school students and elementary maths; it is marketed as "natural textbook display", i.e. entering the problem as displayed in the textbook. I do wish it had some way to easily apply operators to previously entered input, although you can do that using Ans.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 19, 2012, 11:11:34 pm
content: I occasionally use a small TI calculator (TI-30X) with algebraic input, whatever TI's equivalent of VPAM is called. Seems to work the same asthe graphing calculators, with decent history and line editing abilities. I don't mind using it, although I prefer RPN calculators. There's something to be said for being able to see and edit the whole equation before pressing enter. Also makes minor changes in equations much more convenient. Try going back and changing a parameter with an immediate execution calculator.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2012, 11:12:22 pm
content: You can still buy non-VPAM calculators that work the old way; in fact I have previously gone out of my way to find them. Conveniently, you may find them cheaply in places like Tesco.

author: FenderBender
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2012, 11:31:24 pm
content: I don't know exactly why some people here seems to get down on anything non-RPN. RPN can take big nasty complex calculations and make them pretty simple, sure! But algebraic input calculators are still very useful. It's nice to see the entire equation or expression there before you hit the equals sign. I don't think they are as horrid as some people make them out to be.Maybe I'll get myself an RPN calculator for my birthday.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 20, 2012, 01:01:16 am
content: The last few posts are not so much about RPN (I've never so much used HP calculators myself), but about the traditional style of algebraic calculators before they introduced all this fancy VPAM stuff.Now as alm says, it is really convenient to have a text entry line where you can enter and edit expressions before evaluating them and then recall previous entries. Calculators that do that well are really nice, but many of the simpler models have some half-baked compromise and they are just frustrating.

author: FenderBender
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 20, 2012, 01:43:34 am
content: So VPAM is half-baked? (I'm not defending it or bashing it. I really have never used it seriously enough to know).

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 20, 2012, 01:49:59 am
content: It works fine for my basic needs, but I'm only a student and don't do much "real" calculations -- mostly theory for now. For more fancy stuff I use the TI-83.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 20, 2012, 03:06:49 am
content: Quote from: FenderBender on November 20, 2012, 01:43:34 amThe concept is fine of itself, but when they try to squeeze formula entry into cheap calculators with limited display capability then the outcome of that is half baked. If instead you have a calculator with a dot matrix display and multi-line entry and recall then it's a different story and formula entry is convenient.

author: JoannaK
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 20, 2012, 06:05:08 am
content: Still having my old HP-48SX (version A roms, so real old) and I have been thingkin on purchasing the upgrade (like 50-something) if ever found those around here. I have no idea what/how they are expected to sell those thingies, but finding their cals has been nearly impossible for decades.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 20, 2012, 09:06:22 am
content: Quote from: FenderBender on November 20, 2012, 01:43:34 amVPAM is great if you have to calculate an expression exactly as you see it on paper, because that's what it's designed to do, and is really more suited to a large display with edit etc.So if you have 20*Log(1/2) you actually type is as you see it, with the Log key coming first.But I find that's a PITA for everyday calculations.For example, if you wanted to just calculate 1/2 and then decided to take the log of that after the fact, then you have to press an extra key (=). Because VPAM expects the operand to follow the operator.So it's extra key presses for simple stuff.e.g.Log 2 is now 3 key presses: Log 2 =instead of just two key presses: 2 LogSo I find the older non-VPAM system more intuitive when youaren'tworking with a paper equation.It's just more intuitive to have single operand operators like Log, Sin, SQRT etc work instantly on the current number.I know why they did it, it was for the students, so the calculator with just like you see the equation on paper. Hence the acronym "Visually Perfect Algebraic Model".Dave.

author: rr100
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 21, 2012, 01:10:45 pm
content: I think "VPAM" will become more and more widespread as people us it rather often to just get results from Google.For me using the "old/simple" calculators for anything that I can't follow/verify easily in my head is getting more and more frustrating. Even if I do something rather simple like a+b/c if I can't verify the plausibility of the result in my head I start "oh, did I press "="? Maybe twice?! What is this result again? Let me type it from start just in case".Of course as mentioned VPAM works best when you have the adequate hardware/display with enough space for a largish "command line" and stack/history.

author: robrenz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 21, 2012, 03:08:25 pm
content: Quote from: rr100 on November 21, 2012, 01:10:45 pmThat is why many people love RPN.

author: ee851
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 21, 2012, 10:34:42 pm
content: Thanks for the info. on VPAM.DId HP stop making RPN-based scientific calculators?

author: FenderBender
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 21, 2012, 11:17:18 pm
content: Quote from: ee851 on November 21, 2012, 10:34:42 pmNo:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HP_35sI mean they don't make them quite like they used to but that ones pretty recent.