Selling circuitboards legally - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Dajgoro
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2017, 05:38:47 pm
content: HiI've been wondering what is the situation when selling electronic boards online (in house developed).I've googled the topic and found all sorts of replies, but nothing to give a definitive answer.So for start, lets say I sell things trough a company, in fact I can do that from a company located in Croatia (EU).So lets say I make a company webstore that sells the boards worldwide and gives the buyer a proper invoice that is taxed.Reading this post on sparkfun:https://www.sparkfun.com/tutorials/398It says its ok to sell sub assemblies. So would then that allow sales of development boards, shield boards, etc... ?Also, since its the IoT age, can such boards contain RF stuff like bluetooth, wifi, NFC/RFID, and use 433MHz transceivers?Can I then just say that the boards are not certified, and only allowed for hobby or development use?Also, is there a difference if the sold boards are open source, or if the schematics and documents are only allowed for buyers?

author: janoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2017, 07:23:42 pm
content: First, don't rely for this, which is essentially a legal question, on tutorial like from Sparkfun. US rulesdo notapply in Europe! In fact, the system is completely different in EU.Assuming you handle your business stuff (tax, prices, business license, etc.) which are controlled by your government, then there are rules you need to obey when bringing a product to the market. That's mainly the CE marking and the WEEE directive (electronic waste). These are EU-wide but you need to consult your local laws to understand how exactly they were transposed into Croatian law - it differs, e.g. the German implementation is infamous for its bureaucracy and rigidity.QuoteThat's US, doesn't apply in EU. That said, CE marking is self-certified, so you need to supply the declaration of conformity for each product - basically saying that gizmo XYZ complies with all the relevant norms - and then you can put the CE mark on your product and sell it. However, you are legally responsible for it, if there is any trouble or the authorities decide to spot check (e.g. the German ones do), you need to have documentation to justify your steps. One way to get it is to do the EMC (and any other required) testing at an accredited lab. Or you can even do it yourself, assuming you have the relevant skills and equipment.AFAIK, items that are meant to be integrated into other products (modules, etc.) don't have to be certified but then they are not meant to be sold to end users. This is a grey area, IMO. That was why either Sparkfun or Adafruit started to certify their products, even though strictly speaking they may not have to.QuoteAFAIK, not relevant, you still have to obey the same rules. Just when the board has RF, there are more and stricter rules to follow.QuoteNo. You can only sell them as components meant to be integrated into something else, not as final product. The "hobby or development use" plays no role here. As components they may be excepted from some of the paperwork, but check your local laws before you do it. It is not very clearly defined and if the regulator comes to a different conclusion than you as to whether your gadget is a completed product or a component, you will have problems.QuoteFrom a regulatory point of view there is zero difference, AFAIK. The neighbors TV receiving a ton of interference really doesn't care whether the noisy gadget causing it is open source or not. If you have sold it, you will likely get in hot water with the authorities either way. This is only your business decision.

author: mdszy
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 19, 2017, 07:35:34 pm
content: I would honestly suggest consulting with a lawyer. EU laws are going to be entirely different from US laws and you're asking about things which involve a number of different regulatory bodies (tax authority, trade regulations, wireless radio communications regulations...) and if someone here gives you incorrect advice which you follow, you could be in deep legal water.

author: Dajgoro
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2017, 10:38:08 pm
content: Thansk for the replies, seems I'll have to consult somebody.Googling local law gave me 0 results, closest thing that I could find was e-waste management.But then again, in such a small country that does not produce almost any hardware, its gonna be difficult to get proper info.But lets say I get the local rules sorted out, and I can sell it EU-wide. What happens if a US citizen decides to order it online?Who's fault is it then if something goes wrong?

author: mdszy
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 19, 2017, 10:59:29 pm
content: Quote from: Dajgoro on June 19, 2017, 10:38:08 pmWhat do you mean, "if something goes wrong?"

author: Dajgoro
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2017, 01:43:30 am
content: Quote from: mdszy on June 19, 2017, 10:59:29 pmBuyer in US buys item, and for some reason he causes it to catch fire.

author: mdszy
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 20, 2017, 01:51:55 am
content: Quote from: Dajgoro on June 20, 2017, 01:43:30 amThen that's their fault? They can't sue you for that sort of thing or anything.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2017, 01:55:24 am
content: The key thing you need to understand is "importer" this is where the responsibility shifts from one jurisdiction to another. You only need to comply to your local laws unless you have a presence in the other regions.

author: MosherIV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2017, 09:33:35 am
content: QuoteAs everyone says, depends on the laws in the country that you are selling in.The point I would like to make is : even sub assemblies must be fit for purpose and safe to use, as far as a component can be.If however, the fire was caused by the end user miss-using the component and therefore causing the fire - then it is not the suppliers fault.By miss-using I mean pushed beyond specification or used in a way that is not recommended by seller.

author: Red Squirrel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2017, 10:02:17 am
content: I'd be kind of curious about this stuff myself as I would like to eventually get into selling basic electronic items once I get more proficient, still a noob now so far from that point. Is there some blanket way of protecting yourself from any liabilities? Like some kind of disclaimer that the item is only for decorative purpose, or something silly like that?It's actually infuriating since China can sell all sorts of dangerous goods to us, or even certified ones that still catch on fire, but we can't sell locally or even to them because of all the regulations and liability risk etc.

author: janoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2017, 07:56:30 pm
content: Quote from: Dajgoro on June 19, 2017, 10:38:08 pmI believe every EU country has an official contact point for the EU-related legislation. You should be able to find one nearest to you here:https://ec.europa.eu/info/about-european-union/organisational-structure/locations_enThey should be able to point you to both the relevant EU directives and to their implementation in your country. Which is what ultimately matters - EU doesn't really produce laws, the directives become law only after each country transposes them into their own legal system (and thus each country has a different implementation). You need to obey the version adopted in your country (obviously), not e.g. a German one, even if the German version could be more strict in some aspects.Quote from: Dajgoro on June 19, 2017, 10:38:08 pmDepends. If the buyer orders it from your Croatian website and you have no business presence in the US, I would say it is the problem of the buyer - they have imported goods not meant for the US market. That's not much different from someone buying the gizmo in the brick & mortar store at the corner during their vacation and then bringing it home with them in a suitcase.That's also why is it possible to order stuff from AliExpress - if you are ordering it for yourself (aka not for resale), you are only responsible to yourself. Of course, if that gizmo sets your home one fire, you could have problems with insurance paying out you claim when they discover the device responsible for the fire was not approved for EU market (CE marking and all that). The same if e.g. a radio module transmits on a frequency not legal in your country or transmits with more power than allowed - it will be you, the buyer, who gets in trouble, not the seller.On the other hand, if you have a business presence in the US (a reseller, branch office, etc.) and are officially selling the goods there, then you will have to obey the US regulations and laws too (like FCC testing).

author: Dajgoro
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2017, 02:51:19 am
content: Quote from: janoc on June 20, 2017, 07:56:30 pmI'll try giving them a call.And for the other part of the post, yes, that would make sense.

author: Richard Crowley
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2017, 03:20:37 am
content: I have ordered boards/kits on Tindie that came from Croatia and other formerly eastern European countries. No different than ordering from China or Australia or England or Canada, etc.Offer a refund if the buyer is dissatisfied and sends it back. Otherwise its all on the buyer. Especially if it is a kit and you have no control over how the customer assembles it, powers it, or uses it.Do you have "deep pockets"? Do you have a family fortune and a big dacha in the Dinaric Alps? If you are like the rest of us you have "limited liability" simply because there aren't enough assets to make it worthwhile to go after you legally.Of course that won't stop a government who are prohibited from use of common sense. But how badly could your gadget fail to make a situation so bad a government would take notice? You may be over-thinking this.

author: Red Squirrel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2017, 03:34:02 am
content: Quote from: Richard Crowley on June 21, 2017, 03:20:37 amWon't that make you a bigger target though? They know you won't have money to fight it and will either have to settle, or battle it out and probably lose. Either way you lose your house, you lose everything. And they probably garnish your wages as well since your house will only cover a fraction of the lawsuilt losses, whether it's a settlement or an actual amount being sued for. Even settlements tend to be in the hundreds of thousands, sometimes millions.Though if you form a corporation, can they still go after you personally or only go after the corporation? Seems forming a corporation would be the best bet if you want to sell stuff, that way if you get sued you can just go bankrupt, move your site's domain to a parking page and vanish.

author: f5r5e5d
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2017, 04:36:55 am
content: I've read that sole proprietor corps (US) have weak personal liability protectionhttps://www.google.com/search?q=peircing+the+corporate+veil&oq=peircing+the+corporate+veil&aqs=chrome..69i57j0l5.16335j0j8&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8#q=piercing+the+corporate+veil

author: Red Squirrel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2017, 08:03:14 am
content: Is there some kind of insurance one can get to protect themselves? To me that is the biggest barrier of entry to any kind of business that involves selling items, people like to sue, and a single lawsuit is pretty much going to ruin your life and put you on the street unless you operate from a country that protects you better from frivolous lawsuits.

author: MosherIV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2017, 10:21:11 am
content: QuoteDepends on the country that the company is registered and operates in.Limited (liability) company is UK mainly, possibly in Germany as well. Do not know about other countries.

author: janoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2017, 08:11:57 pm
content: Quote from: MosherIV on June 21, 2017, 10:21:11 amThe concept certainly does exists in most EU countries, just the name and some of the details could vary - e.g. the German GmbH, French SARL,SAS,EURL (and maybe more), Slovak s.r.o companies, etc.