2.1 kg of solder for $1 - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: grifftech
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 20, 2019, 07:58:53 pm
content: I got it at a thrift store, modded my solder dispenser to hold it.

author: GreyWoolfe
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 20, 2019, 08:59:15 pm
content: That is enough to pass on to your grandkids. Time to teach them that the only programming language is solder.

author: Gr8fulFox
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: July 21, 2019, 03:15:27 pm
content: Can we get a banana for scale, please?

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 21, 2019, 03:37:57 pm
content: I am soldar and I approve this message.

author: MyHeadHz
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 21, 2019, 04:06:11 pm
content: It looks like plumbing solder in that picture. What is the percentage breakdown, or is it listed anywhere?

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 21, 2019, 09:15:56 pm
content: Quote from: MyHeadHz on July 21, 2019, 04:06:11 pmYes. Still a good deal though.Too often I (mis)use electronic solder for copper plumbing just because it is only one or two joints and I can't find the plumbing stuff.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 21, 2019, 11:41:51 pm
content: Quote from: MyHeadHz on July 21, 2019, 04:06:11 pmProbably 60/40 non fluxed 3mm solder for stained glass lead light work:https://www.glassstation.co.nz/collections/soldering-tools-supplies/products/solder-reel

author: MadTux
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2019, 09:33:58 am
content: Quote from: tautech on July 21, 2019, 11:41:51 pmThe plumbing solder I had so far, was quite different to leaded electronic solder. Melting point was much less defined, at a certain temperature, it partly melted, with chucks of solid alloy parts in between the melted stuff which made it squishy. Bad stuff to work on electronics.So I don't think it's 60/40 alloy, it probably has more lead to get cost down.

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2019, 09:35:12 am
content: If it's acid core keep it well away from electronics.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2019, 09:41:15 am
content: Quote from: soldar on July 21, 2019, 09:15:56 pmHopefully the ROHS stuff, you do know that it is a big no no to use leaded solder in plumbing esp. for drinking water ?

author: MyHeadHz
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2019, 02:57:30 am
content: Quote from: Psi on July 22, 2019, 09:35:12 amWhat? I was under the impression acidic flux core solder was preferable because it broke down the oxide layer allowing a better connection.

author: SteveyG
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 23, 2019, 06:48:05 am
content: Quote from: MyHeadHz on July 23, 2019, 02:57:30 amIt's fine if you clean it off.

author: SteveyG
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 23, 2019, 06:50:51 am
content: You can never have too much solder:

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2019, 11:03:33 am
content: Quote from: SteveyG on July 23, 2019, 06:48:05 am...which is precisely the problem: it can't always be reliably cleaned off. It can wick under or into components, and especially into stranded wire, where it WILL wick up and cause failure later. A wash only makes it wick deeper.That's why acid flux/water soluble fluxes are only suitable in electronics under very, very carefully controlled conditions, with careful engineering and process design. It's in no way suitable for hobby use.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2019, 11:06:57 am
content: Quote from: MyHeadHz on July 23, 2019, 02:57:30 amThat's the function ofallflux.For electronics, except for theverynarrow exception I state in the prior post, acid flux is not suitable. For heavily oxidized components, use mechanical cleaning before soldering, if possible, and use RA flux, which is the most aggressive type of rosin flux. You can get RA flux both as the flux core, as well as in liquid and gel/paste forms. My everyday solder is Kester 63/37 with type 44 flux, which is RA.

author: MyHeadHz
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2019, 01:06:41 pm
content: Are you referring to adipic acid?

author: SteveyG
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 23, 2019, 07:20:55 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on July 23, 2019, 11:06:57 amRA flux still needs heavy cleaning as it has the highest level of activators out of any rosin flux. RA flux residues certainly should not be left behind.

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2019, 07:38:56 pm
content: Quote from: Kjelt on July 22, 2019, 09:41:15 amWell, .... what can I say? Guilty as charged?My apartment has all lead pipes many decades old and I am still alive. I believe the occasional bit of lead in a sweated copper pipe joint is nothing to be concerned about. The water contact area with the solder is close to nothing.I also like eating tuna and now we are being told we should not eat tuna because it accumulates mercury.I am not very much concerned about these things.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2019, 05:05:31 am
content: Quote from: SteveyG on July 23, 2019, 07:20:55 pmThat’s not true. For most applications it does not need to be removed. See the data sheet for Kester 44 in the attachment:Quote

author: SteveyG
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 24, 2019, 05:59:05 am
content: That's the only datasheet that I've ever seen suggesting it's OK to leave RA flux. Every other source plus my IPC training course suggested it must be removed.Look at any other RA flux datasheet. E.g.http://www.farnell.com/datasheets/2785194.pdfI'm conducting some tests anyway at the moment on my YouTube channel on the effects of leaving various fluxes on a PCB.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2019, 08:28:06 am
content: The MG Chemicals and Multicore RA solders also say no cleaning needed:MG Chemicals catalogMulticore datasheetI suppose it’s possible that RA paste/liquid fluxes do require cleaning (though I’m sure there are exceptions), but I’m fairly confident that RA-core solder wire does not. I’ve never even heard of one that requires it for ordinary applications. Bear in mind that this has been the default flux for flux core solder wire for ages, up until recently, and nearly all vintage radios/TVs and hobbyist products were built with it and not cleaned.

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2019, 10:25:46 am
content: Some years ago I was working on the copper pipes of my solar collector panels. I was sweating some copper pipes and it seems some flux drops fell on an electronic control box below without me noticing. The circuit stopped working and it took quite some work to repair it. The flux had eaten away a lot of the copper tracks on the PCB. Lesson learned.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2019, 10:58:03 am
content: Quote from: soldar on July 23, 2019, 07:38:56 pmCorrect methods for joining copper tubing is by brazing and even copper to brass with any of the range of copper brazing alloys.https://www.harrisproductsgroup.com/en/Expert-Advice/tech-tips/procedures-for-brazing-pipe-and-tubing.aspxSpecialized copper brazing alloys require zero flux if the joint is properly prepared and clean.Lead solders for copper tube work...............never seen that in a whole lifetime loosely associated with the plumbing trade. No self respecting plumber I know would ever consider using lead based solder for copper pipe work.Before the days of premade tees and various fittings that are now commonly available plumbers would hacksaw notch a pipe and notch the branch line to a reasonable fit then braze the two together, something lead solders would have no chance of holding together.

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2019, 11:21:07 am
content: Quote from: tautech on July 24, 2019, 10:58:03 amI have never seen residential copper pipes for water or gas brazed. I have always seen them "sweat" soldered. Never ever.Sweating copper brings up many results in Google and in YouTube.I'd be interested in knowing which codes and where prohibit sweating pipes and require brazing. I have never heard of such thing.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2019, 11:27:06 am
content: Brazing = sweating.Different terms, same result.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2019, 12:13:22 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on July 24, 2019, 10:58:03 amLeaded or unleaded soldering is perfectly normal (well, leaded isn't allowed any more) and capable of holding joints just fine.

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2019, 12:16:25 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on July 24, 2019, 11:27:06 amNo. Brazing and soldering (sweating) are different things done at different temperatures. I think they are never mistaken one for the other.Besides, I said I was sweating copper and you saidQuotewhich implies brazing is not the same as soldering.

author: SteveyG
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 24, 2019, 01:38:59 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on July 24, 2019, 10:58:03 amLead or more recently lead free solders are the default method for copper pipework, particularly gas in domestic environments. At least on the majority of the world

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2019, 09:22:00 pm
content: Quote from: soldar on July 24, 2019, 12:16:25 pmSemantics.For the 45+ yrs I've swung an oxy set, arc, TIG, MIG, LPG-Oxy, Acetylene-air and soldered stuff for many types of materials brazing is a widely accepted term here and yes it can also be considered as sweating 2 parts together in which a thin film of the filler holds two closer fitting parts.Typical brazed steel joints are held together in this way ......sweated, while stronger brazed joints may require more filler material for strength or to build mass so to replace a lost or small part of a broken part under repair.Yes, brazing too can be done at different temps where you might use higher temps to ensure good flow of the molten brass between 2 parts, aka sweat. Another example is build mass say for a broken gear where a tooth might be formed with brass and then care must be taken to layer the brass at just above its melt temp but not too high for the build up to flow.Copper is handled in the same way, some joints are sweated and they are typically close fitted while others that aren't require filling and the subtle temp difference between a sweated joint and a filled joint doesn't define a different type of weld but only operator skill.Yet there are different products that can be used for the same joint, one might flow more readily while the other allow for gap filling and the building of mass around the weld for strength.MaterialsFor steel brazing we just use brass and a rod with a external flux coating ar a flux power in the case of a plain brass rod.Copper and many other materials use a variety of brazing alloys of which their formulation determines their suitability for a material or if they are best suited for a close fitting sweated joint or one that needs gaps to be filled.For quality joints in copper we might use a silver based rod but it's only suitable for close fitting joints whereas in NZ the most widely used products for copper are SIL-FOS as it allows for sweated and filled joints, requires only clean prep and is cheaper than the higher silver bearing brazing alloys.http://www.silfos.com/EN/Products/SIL-FOS-15.htmHigher silver content allows for a wider range of materials to brazed with the disadvantages of needing a flux and greater operator difficulty to fill gaps or build mass.https://www.boc.co.nz/shop/en/nz/mig-tig-stick-welding/brazing-alloys-flux

author: Dubbie
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 24, 2019, 09:29:48 pm
content: Here is a question for you all. I see a few folk with solder holder/dispensers.How do you use them? Do you cut off a length? or do you pull a long bit out over to your work and then roll it up afterwards?I can't quite figure that one out.R

author: aargee
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2019, 04:42:38 am
content: I pull off a length cut it with the iron, coil it around my fingers, slip it off and hold the little coil of solder.Too untidy to drape a conductive sting of solder across my workbench, also harder to handle.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2019, 07:34:07 am
content: Quote from: Dubbie on July 24, 2019, 09:29:48 pmActually both.If I need to do a quick small solderjob and the holder or longer strand of solderwire gets in the way , I use the hot iron to melt of a small piece, thereby resoldering the iron tip in the same time, wiping it off so its clean and start soldering. You always have more losses this way but it is very convenient.If I need a lot of solder(joints) then I place the holder such that it is closer to the solderjob but not in the way and keep on pulling.

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2019, 10:29:54 am
content: Quote from: tautech on July 24, 2019, 09:22:00 pmNo. You said something. Then you contradicted what you said. Then you are obfuscating trying to reconcile contradictory statements. That's not semantics, that's talking nonsense and obfuscating in an attempt to not admit your first statement was in error which would have been much easier. Jeeez.No one else seems to have any problem with this issue so I'm dropping it.

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2019, 10:32:28 am
content: Quote from: Dubbie on July 24, 2019, 09:29:48 pmI have never found a holder useful. I move the roll of solder around as needed and it often doubles as weight to hold a wire in place.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2019, 01:14:55 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on July 24, 2019, 09:22:00 pmYou may waffle about semantics and methods of brazing for hours if you like, but it doesn't change soldering being the norm for copper pipework in domestic, commercial, and low pressure industrial work.

author: MyHeadHz
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2019, 02:06:15 pm
content: Semantics aside, I'd still like some references for the strong wording against acidic solder in electronics. I have found some strong personal opinions elsewhere, but still no valid tests or references. Some people seem to be under the impression that plumbing solder uses acid instead of flux, with electronics soldering having the opposite. I don't know about plumbing solder, but electronics solder with adipic acid has flux (and other properties) the same as any other electronics solder. The only difference is the addition of a small amount of adipic acid, which helps with oxide layers. The only references I was able to find say that it isn't in many hobby/off-the-shelf electronics solders anymore because of environmental and health regulations. I found no references for fitness of purpose or other issues in my cursory search.Please provide some supporting information/terms or sources. I'd like to learn some more about this topic.

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2019, 02:34:30 pm
content: I am no expert on this topic but my experience is that plumbing soldering paste isstrongstuff, maybe appropriate for thicker copper pipes but which will eat up copper tracks on a PCB in no time so it is too strong for that. I already mentioned I was soldering some copper pipe and put some paste and I guess with the heat it dripped on the solar system control box below and it was ruined. A lot of the tracks were just gone. It probably does not mean you can't put a quick dab of paste on a pcb and quickly wipe it off.

author: edavid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2019, 02:43:13 pm
content: Plumbing flux usually contains zinc chloride, which is corrosive at room temperature, so must be completely removed.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2019, 03:42:09 pm
content: Quote from: MyHeadHz on July 25, 2019, 02:06:15 pmFluxes are acidic. Plumbing fluxes are designed to deal with layers of oxidation thicker than the traces on your PCB, and to do so while being blasted with a dirty butane flame. They are more than aggressive enough to eat the copper off a PCB in short order, and require very aggressive cleaning. Therefore they are highly unsuited to working on electronics.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2019, 03:45:11 am
content: Quote from: MyHeadHz on July 25, 2019, 02:06:15 pmYou seem fundamentally confused. It’s not flux OR acid! It’s what KIND of flux. Acid flux vs rosin flux vs no-clean flux, etc.Plumbing fluxes are aggressive. Electronics fluxes are gentle, but even the few acid fluxes for electronics (namely, the water soluble fluxes) are only allowed to be used in limited situations and then only with strict cleaning regiments, because wicking into stranded wire and components is uncleanable and will eventually cause corrosion damage. There are stories on here about people using plumbing flux on electronics and having the traces eaten away in short order.

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2019, 08:06:56 am
content: QuoteAll electronics fluxes are acidic, true.Plumbers flux is not necessarily too acidic or too aggressive to use for electronics. There are two other problems. First off, there is no resin in plumber's flux. The ionic/salt residue is not encapsulated; it's hygroscopic and conductive.The second problem is the chloride salts leftover in the residue. Plumber's acid flux contains zinc chloride. This is the main acid in the flux. When heated it creates hydrochloric acid, which is a problem. When it contacts steel or iron, it leaves chloride salt embedded into the surface of the metal which promote rust formation. In electronics, there are some components made of steel, like spring contacts for batteries and the like, battery terminals. Some screw terminals and the like.Most electrical components can be soldered with plumber's flux, so long as you wash thoroughly (hot water and ultrasonic or brushing), but not the steel/iron. That won't ever clean off, unless you physically or chemically remove the surface of the metal to get rid of the chlorides. The plumber's flux is also bad for your soldering iron.You probably come across the term "halide free" when shopping electrical flux. Chlorine is the most notable halide. The "halide" is why you should not use plumber's flux with your good iron or your sensitive electronics.QuoteIf you leave the iron on there for a really long time at a really high temp, it might happen. But it should be unlikely that it would eat through even a tiny copper trace while soldering. HCl can't dissolve elemental copper until it oxidizes; and the purpose of flux is to remove the copper oxides, not the copper, even for plumbers; so it's unlikely that any plumbers flux contains oxidizers. The trace could eventually eat through if you leave the residue on there; if you wash it off, there's no problem to the PCB. Spoken from experience of using plumber's flux for a good couple years (using a crappo copper tipped iron). Washed with hot water and a toothbrush. 15 years later, everything is A-OK, except for the steel bits. Anything made from steel corroded and broke connection about 4 years later.Think about it. There are thousands of hobbyists who etch PCBs in HCl and peroxide. And many of these guys just remove the mask with acetone and rinse off the board with water. The PCB doesn't fall apart and corrode, later. Copper pipes don't corrode away after you solder them, nor are the lead (in the old days) or tin in the solder negatively affected. It's steel/iron that makes it a problem. Take any piece of regular steel and put it in some HCl. Wash it off as best you can (without using polish/abrasives or another acid). Try as you might, the steel is going to rust within some days/weeks.

author: Yansi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2019, 08:12:48 am
content: Quote from: MadTux on July 22, 2019, 09:33:58 amPlumbing solder is I think a non-eutectic mix of 50/50 Sn/Pb.

author: Ian.M
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2019, 09:01:50 am
content: That would be back in the days of lead pipes and wiped joints. Sn40/Pb60 was also used. Got your blowtorch and moleskin greased with tallow handy?Modern plumbing solder is Pb-free (except possibly in some 3rd world s--tholes).If you order 'off brand' 60/40 solder from Ebay or similar marketplaces and the listing doesn't specify the order of the metals, as lead is significantly cheaper than tin, you may well get an unpleasant surprise if you were hoping for electronics grade Sn60/Pb40 solder . . .

author: SteveyG
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 26, 2019, 09:54:55 am
content: Quote from: edavid on July 25, 2019, 02:43:13 pmPowerflow flux is generally not used for plumbing any more because it needs thoroughly washing through and cleaning.Most plumbers will use flux that requires no cleaning e.g. La-Co Flux.