analog oscilloscope or Rigol DS1054Z to check computer hardware? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / beginners

author: Z80user
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 17, 2016, 07:19:09 pm
content: I will like to buy my first oscilloscope and by now I only have 3 cheap multimeters and one old analog multimeterI never needed something very acurrated by now, only to check voltages and continuity.And now I will like to fix and check things like power supply, hard disk drivers and other things than I know (and think) are very complicated to check with cheap multimeters like I have by now.I see some analog oscilloscopes for arround 100 euros (I'm from Spain) and every one than I see don't have any probe...I will used it check computers old like Sinclair spectrum and new like my netbook one than the sound turn off a few minutes after turn it on, and one apple who refuse to turn on the light of the monitorI see the Rigol DS1054Z is more expensive but I think I will it to can check more things and I will can buy it at the end of this year as xmas giftsome oscilloscopes than I can buy for arround 100€HAMEG HM203-6 (20MHz 100€ no probes)Pintek PS-205 (20MHz 22€ but don't work need to be repair)Tektronix T912 (10MHz 50€ +shipping, no probes, the seller tell me it's work but I don't have probes)Tektronix 2432A (300MHz,250MSa/s + probes, 1024-points record length per channel 100€)Rigol DS1054Z (410€ in a shop or add shipping cost)My question, I buy one analog oscilloscope for that price and a couple or probes or better I wait to get the DS1054Z?

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 17, 2016, 07:56:29 pm
content: I would be inclined to look at the Tektronix 2432A - the price is right and it has decent bandwidth. It's a place to start...You don't have to buy expensive scope probes right away, even 150 MHz probes will work. They just aren't ideal.I have the DS1054Z and it's a pretty good entry level scope. But to get any kind of decent bandwidth, you have to plan on using the serial number hack. This will get you 100 MHz and all of the decoding options. I still have my Tektronix 485 analog scope for measurements requiring serious bandwidth. I bought it used about a dozen years ago for $200.The 2432A can't match the DS1054Z in terms of sample rate or memory depth. Not even close! But one is a Tektronix, and the other isn't. Not quite Mercedes vs Yugo but the same kind of deal. Also, the DS1054Z can't come close to the bandwidth of the 2432A!I guess I would start with the professional model scope and learn how a real scope should work. Then I might get the DS1054Z for the 4 channels, higher sample rate and increased memory (plus a bunch of other neat features). The 2432A was a very capable scope when it was introduced 30 years ago.

author: uncle_bob
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 17, 2016, 09:49:54 pm
content: HiThe only competition to the 1054 on your list is the 2432. The rest of the scopes simply are not worth messing with. It's not a brand new device and it likely has been used for a while. I would want to make sure that the CRT is in good shape and is not got any major issues.The Tek:1) Has more bandwidth2) Has a fancier name3) Is < 1/4 the priceThe Rigol:1) Has 4 full channels vs the 2 on the Tek (Tek has 2 trigger inputs)2) Has all sorts of fancy features you may or may not need3) I *much* lighter and more compact4) Has various forms of serial data capture / decoding that you may need5) Comes with a warrantyIs one the obvious choice? It depends entirely on how much the money means to you. I have ... errr .... many .... scopes. One of them is a Rigol. Several of them are Tek's.Bob

author: newbrain
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 17, 2016, 10:50:44 pm
content: This is just to make sure you are aware that the Tek is equivalent time sampling oscilloscope (see e.g.http://www.tek.com/document/application-note/real-time-versus-equivalent-time-sampling), as it declares 300MHz of bandwidth with 250MS/s.The effective bandwidth for real time sampling is limited by Nyquist to 125MHz, and for practical purposes to much less, as you need at least 5 samples per cycle to have an idea of the signal shape (more or less, opinions differ).This means, for example, that you can't expect to do single events captures for non repetitive signals at full bandwidth (for the non-A model, 40MHz BW vs. 100MS/s).

author: alsetalokin4017
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2016, 06:38:55 am
content: 1. Don't even consider purchasing something that is broken or isn't fully functional.2. Just go ahead and get the Rigol DS1054z.( Wait.... are those two statements contradictory?)

author: oldway
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2016, 07:16:05 am
content: Buy something simple and easy to repair.In my opinion, the Hameg HM203-6 is the best choise.You will find low cost 60 or 100Mhz new probes on ebay.Tek 2432a is a "white elephant"...if you want to buy a DSO, go for something more modern, as Rigol DS1054Z

author: SaabFAN
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2016, 09:00:59 am
content: Try getting a Philips Combiscope (PM3350A or better).With those you get both analog mode and digital storage mode with good sampling rate, as well as a very nice and easy to understand User Interface.And also get a Logic Analyzer with at least 16 or 32 Channels (Depends on the architecture: For 8bit Systems 16 Channels are probably enough for 16bit you need at least 32) - When working on old computers, logic Analyzers are basically a must to debug the parallel circuitry.ORGet a MSO1054Z (the one with the logic analyzer)The MSO1054Z is probably twice as expensive as a Combiscope and a dedicated Logic Analyzer, but it combines everything in one tiny, compared to the other option, package.

author: uncle_bob
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 18, 2016, 01:16:47 pm
content: HiJust to be first at this level of price escalation : How about a $20,000 scope ... that would do a lot more things ...Bob

author: Z80user
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2016, 02:35:10 pm
content: for things like thathttp://trastero.speccy.org/cosas/JL/Harlequin/superfo1.htmlI will need a logic analyzer with a lot of channels but some thing go one after anotherHCa-HC8 is easy to check if this work good with 2 probes with the main clock and see the changes. maybe 16 channels are just enought to can see something.About the price... my dad send one apple macbook pro (the first edition with Core2Duo) to repair and their ask for about 700€ to repair it and I know the only one problem are on the backlight, I think because the firmware, well buy one oscilloscope to repair it is less expensive to repair it, their want to change all of the screen without check it and the macbook come to my house without anyscrew on the cooling systemafter call their to ask for it their tell me "no problem to used the macbook without that screws"I think if I buy one oscilloscope to repair and check all of my computers (I stop to count more at arrive at 30, I have more than 40 surely) and to repair things of people the cost, well is a lot but if I can fix things and don't needed to buy a new one and also I can fix and check things for the people who ask me to repair their devices (computers, phone mobiles, lamps)I have a haberdashery but I also repair computers on it, now is more than only a haberdasheryby now I refuse to send anything of apple to fix and I have some knowledge about electronic, programing and I'm not scary to learn more things a oscilloscope with a complycate menu, don't worryNow I only think in two oscilloscopes or three from my listHAMEG HM203-6 (20MHz 100€ no probes)Tektronix 2432A (300MHz,250MSa/s + probes, 1024-points record length per channel 100€)Rigol DS1054Z (410€ in a shop or add shipping cost)Hameg because I can test it and the seller told me for me will be more cheap. (and I have the service manual too)Tektronix, a good one analog, surely will help me with some issues than rigol can't, I never used any oscilloscope yet, and maybe know if I will need one better as the rigol or another one much better.Rigol... I still thinking will be the best choice to can see more things with 4 probes at the same time and 50MHz I think will be enought to see something in digital too... upto PCI/VLB, USB 2.0 but I think rarely I will see that, is too fast to can check a whole package, better one logic analyzer with deep memoryabout have a dedicate logic analyzer, the size of the house is enough big and the room where I fix things too 16 square meters.no problem with have too many things on it.In the future I will like to design something like the harlequin (the first link) and can check it before sell it

author: uncle_bob
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 18, 2016, 02:41:47 pm
content: Quote from: Z80user on June 18, 2016, 02:35:10 pmHiThe only point I would make:The Tek you are looking at is *not* an analog scope. The 2465 is an analog scope. The one you are looking at is an older digital scope.Bob

author: Z80user
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2016, 03:26:40 pm
content: I think the Tektronix 2432A is a analog oscilloscope 350MHz (I think is too much) with a extra to store and repeat a signal do display it and measure the waveform on it but the main part is analog. I saw the video of one 2432 without the A and I think is analog as one who repair DaveEEVblog #502 - $19 Hameg Analog Oscilloscope

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2016, 04:02:50 pm
content: Of the lot, the 2432 & DS1054Z are the only ones to consider IMHO.Personally, I'd opt for the DS1054Z, and perform the unlocking procedure to increase the BW & memory depth (as well as the software features).Makes it one heck of a value.As per locating one, you might want to consider Batterfly.com in Italy, as they're running a special on them (327.95EUR & free shipping in Europe + VAT of course;here).

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2016, 04:27:32 pm
content: The step from a multimeter to either of these scopes is so large that you will not regret what ever choice you make. For the applications you describe either will work fine, and both will allow you quite a bit of room for growth. I grew up in the analog scope era, and while they have much nostalgia value, there is little intrinsic value to me in "analog".For me, the real decider in scopes is not the fundamental bandwidth, or the analog-digital divide, but the triggering capability. Real world, not spec sheet. All the Tek scopes I have used do well in this area. I recently purchased one of the Rigol's and am happy so far with triggering, but haven't really exercised it on tough conditions yet. The Rigol does have far more sophisticated triggering capability than the older Tek scopes in terms of triggering on patterns, so from a spec sheet standpoint would be far superior. Time will tell if all of these features work as advertised.

author: uncle_bob
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 18, 2016, 05:01:44 pm
content: HiSee:http://w140.com/tekwiki/images/3/33/Tek-2430A-2432A-2440-catalog.pdfThe term "Digital Storage" is what Tek used in that era to describe their digital scopes.Bob

author: oldway
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2016, 06:39:55 pm
content: This is why I said the 2432a is a "white elephant":http://spurtikus.de/basteln/repair/tek2432/index.htmlCompare with a Rigol DS1054Z

author: daybyter
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2016, 08:13:49 pm
content: What about a USB scope plus a salae clone? Or a Hantek 6022bl ?

author: uncle_bob
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 18, 2016, 08:18:17 pm
content: Quote from: daybyter on June 18, 2016, 08:13:49 pmHiI think that a Salae (the real thing) is a great way to go for the logic analyzer. It is a lot easier to do on a PC screen than on an instrument screen. A scope is the other way around. Trying to do "scope stuff" (like troubleshooting) on a PC screen ... not so much. Getting anything done that way (no knobs) is painful.Bob

author: daybyter
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2016, 12:08:06 am
content: Yeah, I agree.But on the other hand: setting proper triggers and then record a one-shot sample is essential for computer repair and/or mcu stuff in my eyes. So I have a 6022be and an old tek. And the 6022 is what I use most of the time. I would trade them any time for a rigol 1054, though.

author: uncle_bob
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 19, 2016, 12:21:50 am
content: HiThere are *plenty* of threads around here talking about the 1054 for serial capture. It *does* work. It is not prefect. I keep a USB logic analyzer around for doing anything serious. When bad stuff happens, it always seems to be in the middle of a few million messages ....Bob

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2016, 01:08:02 am
content: Quote from: oldway on June 18, 2016, 06:39:55 pmThere is also something to be said for a $100 scope today versus waiting until Xmas for a $400 scope. There's a lot of electronics that can be done with the Tektronix.

author: Z80user
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2016, 02:59:33 pm
content: Finally I think I will wait to get a better oscilloscope and keep some money for the rigol, 1.000 samples after or arround a triger sometimes don't will be enough but normaly are near of the triger, after get me only with a couple of oscilloscopes than can be capable to can be good for my work/hobby and maybe cann't check some before buy it, better I will wait for the rigol.Logic analyzer, I have one, not too powerfull with only 8 channels (no enough sometimes)for a 8 bits computers... maybe it will need some more channels: 8 bits, 16 address, control signal from the cpu, ... the Zilog Z80 have 40 pins and some don't need to check it, reset, nmi, Vcc, GND ...for a MCU, now used analog pins something to check the ADC is needed, some noise can frozen it (the SAI of my 3Dprinter do it sometimes), are things than a logic analyzer can't do itthe Batterfly.com in Italy, well 10€ less than buy it on Spain and something more for send it.My Santa Wish of 2016: one Rigol DS1054Zthe next wish a better Logic analyzer with much more channelsThanks guys.

author: uncle_bob
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 19, 2016, 03:06:52 pm
content: Quote from: Z80user on June 19, 2016, 02:59:33 pmHiI think that is a reasonable approach.Since you have time, watch the auction sites and see what comes up. The good deals on test gear pop up and are sold quickly. The things that hang around forever and ever are either over priced or so specialized that nobody needs it. Also consider your whole bench and what is missing on it. It is easy to go overboard in one area (or *many* areas ... see my bench) and find you are missing things you need in another area. A good soldering station isn't as exciting as a new scope. It's still something you need to have ... Probably a good idea to stop getting them before you pile up eight or ten thoughBob

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2016, 11:17:33 pm
content: Quote from: Z80user on June 19, 2016, 02:59:33 pmFWIW, Batterfly.com is offering a free shipping deal for Europe on a DS1054Z right now, so it's only 327.95EUR + VAT (not sure if the free shipping is a short-term special, or will be the norm).

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2016, 11:47:19 pm
content: Quote from: Z80user on June 19, 2016, 02:59:33 pmAnother alternative is SDS1102X+ with 16 Ch LA that decodes.http://www.siglenteu.com/pdxx.aspx?id=2373&T=2&tid=1

author: Z80user
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2016, 02:02:04 pm
content: the guy who sell "HAMEG HM203-6 (20MHz 100€ no probes)" give it to me free and now I need to repair it, the most of the buttons don't work and I see noise when I press it, at least some thing work on it is not dead, the CRT monitor work good.The square signal look more like Sine_wave with a gap betweek the upper and the lower part of the signal (I barely see it)Tre trigger signnal work but don't made any diference in the signal on the CRT when the light is on and trigger is turn on, and when trigger is turn on and the light is off I didn't see anything1X and 10X don't made anythingI think I will made a couple of videos at least to repair this unit in my channel on youtube and attack it here in the future

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2016, 03:35:32 pm
content: Quote from: Z80user on June 17, 2016, 07:19:09 pmYou have to understand different types of faults and the different types of tool used to debug them.Q1: can the computer possibly work? Use meters and >=10MHz scopes to check power voltages and ripple.Q2: are "bits" getting from "here" to "there"? This requires that you look at theanaloguesignals to see that they will be correctly interpreted asdigitalsignals. You need to see the voltages, the overshoot/undershoot and time differences between clock and data signals (or clock and strobe signals). The waveforms are repetitive, so you don't need a storage scope, but you do need analogue bandwidth >=100MHz and to be able to see timedifferencesof 1ns-2ns (to catch setup/hold violations). AworkingTek 2432 would be ideal; a hacked DS1054Z is just about OK.Q3: is the logic responding at all? Sometimes you just need to see that an input causes an output. Possibly a scope is sufficient, especially if the stimulus/response can be made repetitive.Q4: is the logic responding correctly? If you need to look at an address bus or a data bus plus control signals, then you will need a logic analyser with the relevant number of bits. (The latter is a problem for scopes). It is best if they can have an external clock, so that you can pick out just the events that are relevant.Q5: is the system working? Use a program with printf/logging statements.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2016, 01:10:56 am
content: The Tektronix 2432A is a DSO through and through but it is getting long in tooth so even if it works now, be prepared to do some maintenance in the future. Assuming it works, 100€ is a deal. Likely problems include the aluminum electrolytic power supply capacitors (of course) and the battery backed up memory.The 2432A has some features lacking in the Rigol 1054Z but you would be unlikely to need them; it has a dual delayed timebase with A and B triggers and dual delta delayed timebase capability which I suspect was included as a legacy feature for people used to older oscilloscopes which had this. Some of the portable analog oscilloscopes which were contemporaries to the 2432A had dual delta delayed timebase capability as well.As far as the real time bandwidth, I disagree strongly with newbrain; sample rate has nothing to do with bandwidth. The input bandwidth of the 2232A is always 300 MHz at any sample rate and if you beat an input against the sample rate, the -3dB point is still 300 MHz despite aliasing. This is actually done during external calibration for aligning the interleaved CCD sampling system. In most applications, you will not even notice equivalent time operation and I would much rather have a 20 GS/sec equivalent time sample rate rather than a 1 GS/sec real time sample rate split among the input channels.