Intel aims at the Arduino: Galileo - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Fsck
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2013, 09:17:36 pm
content: http://download.intel.com/support/galileo/Galileo_Datasheet_329681_002.pdfdiscuss/mock/scorn.that is a boatload of ram though..

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2013, 09:26:58 pm
content: Indeed. It seems Arduino is becoming a house for big boy processors:http://blog.arduino.cc/category/arduino/tre/Both Galileo and Tre benefit from a ton of legacy code. I wonder if this will become a race or they will aim different niche markets...

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2013, 11:28:22 pm
content: wow. i see lots of huge finepitch BGA's.will this be open source ?if so .. will it be made in eagle ? ( i dont thinks so.. not with that ddr on there and those bga's )even if it is all open source . who has the capability of replicating one..que : flamewar...

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 05, 2013, 01:10:35 am
content: You probably have to program that Quark CPU in Ferengi...Designing such a board is very doable even using Eagle. I've seen people do boards like these using much simpler PCB layout tools. In the end its the skill of the designer which counts. The biggest bottleneck is getting the board assembled. If you have a setup with stencils and a reflow oven you stand a chance otherwise you'd need to outsource. Choosing the package with the largest pitch is a good idea either way.

author: george graves
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 05, 2013, 01:21:41 am
content: QuoteFatal flaw?

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 05, 2013, 01:27:38 am
content: 230 Hz??Hertz??Quote from: george graves on October 05, 2013, 01:21:41 amAbso-fking-lutely.

author: Harvs
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 05, 2013, 01:32:03 am
content: Schematics:https://communities.intel.com/docs/DOC-21822The board file:https://communities.intel.com/docs/DOC-21824But it's a allegro binary (.brd), whatever use that is to anyone. Shame, I was hoping to have a browse in Altium if it was possible, but you need a install of allegro to import the binary version.

author: Fsck
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 05, 2013, 01:37:20 am
content: Quote from: Harvs on October 05, 2013, 01:32:03 amthanks for making me choke on tea with that board file link. that's definitely "easily accessible"...

author: Harvs
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 05, 2013, 01:38:48 am
content: Has anyone found a price for this thing?edit:Quote

author: GeoffS
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 05, 2013, 01:41:55 am
content: Looks like Arduino is fighting back -Arduino Tre

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 05, 2013, 01:46:48 am
content: Quote from: Harvs on October 05, 2013, 01:32:03 amWhat a joke.

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 05, 2013, 01:54:05 am
content: Quote from: rsjsouza on October 04, 2013, 09:26:58 pmMy initial gut reaction of the TI and the Intel boards were: "why would I want that?"I enjoy playing with the MCUs to get away from the big boy processors and use the MCU like the way I used microprocessor at the started: simple control program doing one or two simple tasks. Now microprocessors are too complex to be bread-boarded for say something with the level of complexity of controlling a simple 7-segment LED control.That was the initial gut feel. Then I thought, perhaps MCU will grow to a simple personal computers replacing the generic every-machine-the-same WinTel machines out there. Today's PC's are like toilets. Whether you are in Germany or USA, one toilet bowl is like another.An MCU based new generation of personal computer with a browser, a word processor, an email (not web mail but like earlier mail managers with pop3 and smtp. That may not be a bad thing -- just to get away from the PC's of today.But then that likely will not happen. Wintel based machines are so matured that they can be manufactured efficiently (cheaply). No one will spend 5x as much just to get a simple machine with less complexity. And most will only complain about it not having the feature they used to have anyway...

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 05, 2013, 02:07:48 am
content: Quote from: Rick Law on October 05, 2013, 01:54:05 amYes, they even connect to the sewer!

author: mrflibble
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 05, 2013, 02:18:32 am
content: Quote from: c4757p on October 05, 2013, 02:07:48 amAsymmetric Digital Sewer Line. check.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 05, 2013, 03:08:07 am
content: I dont think they got what is arduino about. it doesnt run with one USB cable. It requires bloatware code to run. They even put a pciexpress on it. What are they expecting? people putting Wifi cards together on breadboard? Or starters can blink an LED on a 400Mhz x86 processor? They also send a serial port over an audio jack (standards can kiss it). And there is of course 256Mbyte Dram together with 512 Kbyte for your code. It might even run java on some embedded windows to emulate a Atmega just for the argument:"Hey! We wasted more processing power than no one else before"

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 05, 2013, 03:29:37 am
content: It's only the Arduino that it's going after, I think it's the Rpi that's the target as well.Who wouldn't want to run their hobbiest x86 code on a thing with a pinout like what is on the Arduino?Might be a silver bullet.

author: Harvs
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 05, 2013, 03:36:18 am
content: I agree that the arduino form factor is really a bit of wank. But I'm all for manufacturers producing these sorts of small boards. The more competition and variety the better IMO.Since the release of the RPi and beaglebone, combined with the proliferation of below cost manufacturer ARM dev boards we've now got access to more embedded processing and peripheral options than you can poke a stick at. All in convenient boards for one off projects and for a pittance compared to a few years back.Continuing development and expansion in this field can only be a good thing IMO.

author: lgbeno
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 05, 2013, 03:47:18 am
content: Quote from: c4757p on October 05, 2013, 01:46:48 amFor what it is worth, there is a free viewer for Allegro files:http://www.cadence.com/products/pcb/Pages/downloads.aspx

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 05, 2013, 04:30:50 am
content: Quote from: NANDBlog on October 05, 2013, 03:08:07 amOR, perhaps they know but they are trying to change it. If they succeed in making popular MCU's as bloated as P5 or Atom style CPU's, they fragment the market into Bloat-MCU and embedded MCU. Bloat-MCU with higher margin, and the embedded (simple task) MCU.1. Bload MCU for things like Microwave Oven - now the menu can be touch screen - or even talk and listen. Fridge that can self-report "I'm out of milk". In-Car entertainment system, things like that.2. Bload MCU for pseudo-nerds to play around. A P5 (CPU class) MCU module to run a mood-lamp with browser interface. The mood lamp that can tell "talk back" to you with instead of "shields" but PCI-Express audio, so forth. I said psedu-nerds because I think the real nerds would like to do it themselves instead of buying a "shield".3. Once they got the more complex MCU market with their Bloated MCU, the traditional MCU market remains and they they wont engage in much - margin is too low. That is where MCU do really just the simple basic things like well, scrolling LED signs.Perhaps that is what they have in mind to get a piece of that pie.Once that market changes, Bload MCU

author: Electro Fan
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 05, 2013, 05:34:14 am
content: Quote from: Harvs on October 05, 2013, 03:36:18 amHarvs, 100% agreed. Intel's participation and the resulting competition is good for everyone.What it should be called though is not Galielo, but Gallant - as it is a gallant effort by Intel to jump on the tide being made by ARM processors that increasingly appear to be the semiconductor architecture of choice for the Internet of Things.Where we are headed is a lots of "things" with semiconductors attached or embedded and these things are going to have a unique ID (but not necessarily an IP address), and many (eventually most) are going to be able to communicate wirelessly, and they are going to become increasingly programmable, and increasingly intelligent. The ability to port software across a family of such devices will be the hallmark of the winning semiconductor architecture.Intel is saying "hey, what about us, we already had a ton of software written for our architecture (especially in the PC realm) over the last couple decades - so why not use our architecture that leverages our (kind of older) software when you are writing your new Arduino software, and making your new "shields".Meanwhile the ARM platform is saying here is our sufficiently powerful architecture that is less expensive and it will become increasingly resourceful (with more processor and memory capabilities) and by the way who wants to load their Windows software on here anyway? No doubt, some/many people will have a desire to leverage various vestiges of the PC architecture, but overall it might not be the way of the future. It is becoming very interesting.

author: Electro Fan
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 05, 2013, 06:29:34 am
content: http://www.anandtech.com/show/7387/intel-announces-galileo-quark-based-arduino-compatible-developer-board"Intel finds itself in an interesting position today. When it first launched Atom, x86 compatibility was a selling point - something no competing ARM solution at the time could offer. These days the bulk of the mobile world is built on ARM code. Similarly, because of ARM’s excellent portfolio of super cheap, low power cores, there are many other markets where ARM is just as prevalent. Add onto that some of the lowest cost platforms to develop on and do neat things with run ARM based silicon, and not x86. In other words, there’s an entirely new generation of platforms, developers and applications that aren’t x86 compatible. Over the long run this poses a big problem to Intel. While x86 might not be an advantage in a lot of high growth markets, it’s still an advantage in many others. Any erosion of that advantage simply puts Intel in a much more difficult position in the long run.The solution, albeit a bit late, is Quark. The design is 32-bit Pentium ISA compatible (Intel apparently loves starting out new projects with the Pentium ISA), and features a core that should be roughly 1/5 the size of Atom and capable of operating at as little as 1/10 the power. Quark's other major selling point is it is a fully synthesized design. It'll be built exclusively at Intel fabs to start (the first chips are built at 32nm), but Intel made it very clear that if you want a cheap, low power x86 core to integrate alongside your own IP, it'll offer you Quark. Previously Intel provided no such solution, which drove some customers to ARM."

author: AndyC_772
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 05, 2013, 07:56:13 am
content: Quote from: lgbeno on October 05, 2013, 03:47:18 amAlso, you don't need Allegro itself to edit a .BRD file, all the Cadence PCB packages are file compatible - they're all the same software but with different licence options enabled.I use Orcad PCB Designer Standard, which uses .BRD and was about £2k (UK). I'll grant that's more than any of the hobby grade layout tools, but not exactly crippling for a small business.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 05, 2013, 11:22:54 am
content: What i really don't get, is how can they fail again and again in this market, they preatty much dominated in the past. Think of 8051. Everything used it. It was the de-facto microcontroller. And they discontinued it, I'm not sure if they get royalties anymore. And then there was the Xscale ARM MPUs, which were used in all PDAs, almost exclusively. It was sold to Marwell. Why?If they would have spent just a little time improving these two families over the years (think of 38051), they could sell billions of chips. These two families were the right size, right technology, right architecture. Now they redefined "embedded" as "pc without keyboard" and they are running for their money with chips no-one seems to be interested in.

author: TheWelly888
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 05, 2013, 12:28:08 pm
content: I thought it was going to be one of these:http://www.argos.co.uk/static/Product/partNumber/4219608.htm?CMPID=GS001&_$ja=cgid:9914396945|tsid:41370|cid:130513265|lid:48710501345|nw:g|crid:32276115905|rnd:2028246646553889592|dvc:c|adp:1o1

author: Bored@Work
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 05, 2013, 01:25:02 pm
content: Quote from: NANDBlog on October 05, 2013, 11:22:54 amThey have/had that big x86 cash cow. Like many large companies with a big cash cow all other business in the company is measured against the cash cow. Add to that a certain arrogance of those working for the cash cow and add that the cash cow departments are usually the largest in the company. Then all other businesses in a company have to fight an uphill battle. Those company parts that can't even spin a story how their activity is helping to sell the cash cow have the most problems.

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 05, 2013, 06:25:32 pm
content: Quote from: Tepe on October 05, 2013, 07:11:12 amOn a side note, the one most significant difference I saw, in this case, with urinals... In Brussels intl airport, the urinals has a "target" painted/baked into the ceramic - a blue-ish color fly. At first, I thought it was real. Then I realized it was a figure baked on to the ceramic. Thinking about it, I think it was there at a specific spot to reduce splash. Like reflect action, I was aiming at it...(For the picky readers, it could have been Amsterdam, or both. I spend enough time in either of them that sometimes I don't even remember which one I was in.)So, the "user interface" would be a little superficially different, but the guts of the PC would be the same.

author: Bored@Work
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 05, 2013, 06:30:57 pm
content: Quote from: Rick Law on October 05, 2013, 06:25:32 pmIt is indeed for target exercises. It is supposed to reduce the accidental misses by motivating users to target better, and this should then reduce cleaning costs.

author: firehopper
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 05, 2013, 10:38:02 pm
content: same thing at the urinals at work. blue fly like thing

author: westfw
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 05, 2013, 11:30:12 pm
content: QuoteWow. I was looking at photos of the board, and thinking "Quark isn't much of an SoC (in the microcontroller sense of the word); it looks like there are external chips for the ethernet, and maybe the USB, and the RAM, and..." But I did not expect GPIO to be "distant."This is one of the reasons people over in the 8bit vs 32bit thread are so hesitant to accept 32bit chips; No, I don't want to set up a DMA'ed PCI Express bus transaction to the USB-hosted I2C controller port expander so that I can flip a digital bit. I just want to flip the damned bit. Yes, it helps that you've provided libraries so that I can just do digitalWrite(p,b), but since it turns out to be 40x slower and much bigger, what was the advantage of the 32bit 400MHz CPU again?I think I know "why", though. It's that "Internet of Things" stuff. You just can't fit even Trivial IoT applications onto 8bit cpus, because even Trivial apps "require" non-trivial protocols, parsing, encryption, and security. By the time you add "hw support" to do that stuff on an 8-bit CPU, you might as well have started with a 32bit CPU (cost wise, ease-of-implementation-wise, size-wise, etc.) (Look at the ridiculous prices of an Arduino with WiFi, for instance.) Similar things happen when you start thinking "GUI."

author: ovnr
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 05, 2013, 11:42:43 pm
content: I'd be really happy to have a cheap x86-based dev board, but this isnotit.Because the more alternatives to ARM cores there is, the better - I'm getting sick and tired of seeing them every-fucking-where, and I am doing my part to avoid 'em.Yay MIPS cores.

author: Harvs
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2013, 01:17:08 am
content: Quote from: ovnr on October 05, 2013, 11:42:43 pmIs it the processor or the peripheral implementation that turns you off? Just curious...QuoteIs there any MIPS devices that have dev boards to compete in this space? (i.e. against ARM A processors.) Are there even any MIPS processors in this space at all?

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2013, 02:47:48 am
content: http://www.imgtec.com/mips/developers/development-platforms.aspThere you go, the MIPS lineup. I did my time with PIC32, i must say, they are not all that bad. If you are prepared with the usual Michrochip silliness.

author: Stonent
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2013, 03:07:09 am
content: How about a 40 Pin PDIP 8086 (software) compatible processor with 1MB of RAM and a couple of megs of flash all in one chip.Have an option in the software to turn a block of pins into a VGA output or serial port. So basically an all in one 1980's PC on a breadboardable chip.

author: AndyC_772
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2013, 06:50:30 am
content: Quote from: ovnr on October 05, 2013, 11:42:43 pmI'm not sure I see the logic here. The important thing about a microcontroller project is what the microcontroller is doing, not what it actually is. If an ARM processor ticks all the boxes for cost, performance, feature set and so on, then why not get on and use it? Learn CMSIS and the standard peripheral libraries once, then get on with the interesting, important bit of the job.I still get jobs coming in which specify the need for a PIC (generally because the customer in question is already using them, has the tools for them and so on), but otherwise I'm very much aiming down the ARM Cortex route for new designs.When I worked out that I can get an STM32 with the same peripheral set as a PIC18 but several times the memory and many times the performance, for much less cost than the PIC, then it was pretty much game over.

author: westfw
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2013, 07:26:40 am
content: Quote8086 only has 1MB address space (or did you mean x86 in a more generic sense?)I'd be sort-of happy with an "original IBM PC" on a chip: 256kB flash, 256kB RAM, plus the usual microcontroller set: uart, gpio, SPI, I2C... Maybe, anyway. In some sense it'd be like my original favorite PDP10 mainframe architecture. Sure, it was classic and had its strong points. But I don't really want to go back to anything with pointers smaller than 32bits, if it's supposed to displace 8bit micros. (Where 8bit micros really get painful is with the kludges that have been bolted on to make them use more than (usually) 64k of memory. Bank switching sucks.)

author: Stonent
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2013, 07:31:21 am
content: Quote from: westfw on October 06, 2013, 07:26:40 amYeah that's why I said 1MB, or actually no, the 8086 I think could do 16MB but the 8088 could only do 1MB I think. The 8088 was a cut down version of the 8086 with only an 8 bit bus.

author: ovnr
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2013, 12:12:41 pm
content: Quote from: Harvs on October 06, 2013, 01:17:08 amWell, the processor core itself. But I've also heard some less than flattering things about the peripherals (LPC & STM32).Sure, all micros have their "endearing features" (bugs disguised as features), but there is often far too much dicking around to get even simple peripherals to work.Yup, there are libraries, but in my experience the documentation has been less than stellar, often in a"why don't you just go read the source and datasheet and try to figure it out, we can't be bothered documenting it" fashion.Quote from: AndyC_772 on October 06, 2013, 06:50:30 amYes, but this is apoliticaldecision, because for my usage, the performance/cost difference is miniscule - and fairly irrelevant.I'm just sad to see ARM dominate the market the way things stand, and if I can do my part to use different architectures, I'm happy to.Also, the MIPS instruction set makes me happy because it makessense. Haven't gotten that deep into the ARM side of things due to the above reasons, and I don't plan to.And for the people who go "oh but noone cares about assembly anymore" - I've learnt heaps of things from reading the machine code generated by the compiler.

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2013, 03:32:24 pm
content: Quote from: Stonent on October 06, 2013, 07:31:21 am8086 and 8088 both have 20-bit address bus (1MB space); you're probably thinking of the 80286 with its 24-bit address bus.To me, the advantage of x86 comes along with the PC architecture (standard peripherals like the 8042, PIT, DMA/PIC, CMOS/RTC, ISA, PCI, ...) so it doesn't make as much sense to pull out the core and leave everything else out; much of the legacy code that makes x86 so successful is also code that uses those other standard PC-amenities. ARM cores are incorporated into tons of widely incompatible system architectures, x86 customarily is part of the PC. Galileo isn't really a PC, it can't run Windows or DOS, so I don't see as much point to it.The GPIO, as pointed out above, also sounds horrible; a full-size PC chipset usually has a few dozen of them, and since they're in the southbridge, they can be toggled at rates in the MHz range...

author: usLEDsupply
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: October 07, 2013, 01:33:05 am
content: i like the idea of being able to use a Wi-Fi module and all the memory and the fact they are providing tons to schools but don't like the slow speed I/O ultimately it will all come down to the price, if it can isn't much more than the Netduino i may order up a few but it sounds like we have to wait a few more weeks until they are releasedthe Arduino Tre also looks sweetbut it sounds expensive as well?

author: cubansite
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2013, 02:25:33 am
content: Lets not forget how we can pull the AVR off the Arduino and embed it in our final projects.Then go on ebay and pick up another AVR for dirty cheap

author: peter.mitchell
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2013, 03:09:46 am
content: Quote from: cubansite on October 07, 2013, 02:25:33 amI'm not sure what you're implying with that?

author: senso
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2013, 03:13:56 am
content: Arduino uses AVR's, not crusty pics.

author: poorchava
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2013, 06:11:43 am
content: Intel's like 3 years or something to late with this. Less capabilities than a simple beaglebone or RPi for more money. Fail!

author: Rerouter
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2013, 06:25:18 am
content: Quote from: peter.mitchell on October 07, 2013, 03:09:46 amWhat diameter wire is thatand if that was hand soldered, what is the bga pitch?

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2013, 06:42:04 am
content: Looks like a 0.8 mm ball pitch and enameled wire. It is not that hard to hand solder, just time consuming and requires a decent soldering iron.

author: konatsu
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: October 07, 2013, 07:21:12 am
content: I'm not sure what you're implying with that?Nice Skill

author: mrflibble
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2013, 07:58:38 am
content: Quote from: konatsu on October 07, 2013, 07:21:12 amIndeed. An interesting combination of skill, determination and no small measure of masochism.Personally I draw the line at dead bugging QFN's. What is that, 107 balls? Impressive.

author: marshallh
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 07, 2013, 08:24:15 am
content: Pretty impressive, but whoever did it didn't check to see what kind of device they were lifting, or whether all 100+ pins needed to be extended. Wires on the outrigger pins? If that is a NAND flash memory then it is only going to have a narrow data bus and some control signals. No need for many of those wires. It wouldn't look as neat though.

author: ZeroStatic
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2013, 08:25:45 am
content: Seems like massive overkill for basic projects.May be really interesting for development of higher end projects with the massive amount of x86 legacy code that can run on this thing.I wonder how much power it uses, could be a good home automation controller if the power used is low.Probably the Raspberry PI will kick it's ass in almost every category especially price.Just my opinion.

author: peter.mitchell
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2013, 08:41:46 am
content: Quote from: marshallh on October 07, 2013, 08:24:15 amseems like some kind of dram

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2013, 09:48:13 am
content: Quote from: Rerouter on October 07, 2013, 06:25:18 amA steady hand.

author: GeorgeHahn
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2013, 10:14:08 am
content: So... disregarding all of the negatives, is there anywhere this boarddoesmake sense?

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2013, 12:45:04 pm
content: Quote from: peter.mitchell on October 07, 2013, 08:41:46 amActually it's both. JEDEC MCP DDR + NAND flash e.g.http://www.deutron.com.tw/pdf/mDDR_512x16.pdf

author: cubansite
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2013, 05:10:01 pm
content: Quote from: peter.mitchell on October 07, 2013, 03:09:46 amThat is overkill for simple projects.But that is some skill there.nice

author: XL5
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2013, 09:17:51 pm
content: As far as I am concerned, this is fantastically interesting. It also seems that bigger players are taking an interest in the hobby market.

author: GeorgeHahn
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2013, 03:40:20 am
content: Quote from: XL5 on October 07, 2013, 09:17:51 pmBut they're completely missing the point! I agree that Intel could do a world of good for us hobbyists, but they're so far off, all they're going to do is spend a bunch of money and add to the noise.For example: MinnowBoard. Open, right? Well, the layout is locked up in the format of a very expensive CAD package. Completely inaccessible. And good luck getting a datasheet for your processor.

author: marshallh
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 08, 2013, 04:19:27 am
content: I take back my comment, that is a hybrid device.. the outer edges are laid out like gddr/ddr3 and NAND on the inside. Almost all the pins are utilized.

author: AndyC_772
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2013, 06:41:31 am
content: Quote from: GeorgeHahn on October 08, 2013, 03:40:20 amYou do know there's a free viewer for the board file, and that if you want to edit it, Allegro is available in a range of options with dramatically varying price tags...? The version I use - which includes OrCAD Capture as well - didn't cost much more than the laptop I run it on. It's branded as OrCAD PCB Designer, but it's the exact same binary. If I double click a .BRD file, the splash screen that pops up even says Allegro on it.I'm afraid I don't understand why anyone would describe it as 'completely inaccessible', when it's trivial to request and install the free viewer from Cadence.I suspect the problem is really just that the hobby market is very inward looking... everything has to be Eagle, or maybe KiCad - but a professional PCB designer won't be using those tools, ever.

author: janoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2013, 01:45:00 pm
content: Quote from: AndyC_772 on October 08, 2013, 06:41:31 amI think that this whole open/closed discussion is a red herring anyway - what is a hobbyist going to do with the board file anyway? It is not like an average person can rework that type of a board or is equipped to make their own clone (assuming that they could actually acquire the CPU/SoC in the first place). Schematics and a board documentation - dimensions, connector pinouts, etc. are a lot more useful than the board file.Quote from: AndyC_772 on October 08, 2013, 06:41:31 amWell, for a hobbyist a $2k+ PCB package is simply not an option. And there isn't much else than Eagle and Kicad on the low end that is actually usable. So I this is a bit cheap shot to make.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2013, 07:22:59 pm
content: Quote from: AndyC_772 on October 08, 2013, 06:41:31 amEagle is used professionally.

author: 99wilksjam
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: October 09, 2013, 01:19:07 am
content: Saw this on hackaday, looks good I like the fact it comes with a NI, Shame we dont know how much it costs yet :s

author: GeorgeHahn
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2013, 10:20:52 am
content: Quote from: AndyC_772 on October 08, 2013, 06:41:31 amMuch as I used to enjoy working with OrCAD, I can't justify using it for open hardware designs. That's the point of open hardware - if others can't freely modify it, then it's not open.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2013, 12:11:57 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on October 08, 2013, 07:22:59 pmAnd rather extensively. I wouldn't be surprised if Eagle has a bigger market share than Altium (in number of companies using the software).

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2013, 03:28:31 am
content: Quote from: GeorgeHahn on October 07, 2013, 10:14:08 amWiFi enabled thermostat with web based interface, perhaps?