Another 3Way Switch Wiring - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / beginners

author: Larsson55
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 29, 2024, 07:15:54 pm
content: The way its wired now I can only control the corridor light from the FR switch. Where the family room switch is located its packed with wiring and I'm unable to see the switch wiring. Also the corridor has a stucco ceiling and I cant remove the fixture without damaging the stucco ceiling. If I switch around the BLK & RED wires in the corridor switch doesn't solve the problem. Any way to have the family / corridor switches function properly?Thanks

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 29, 2024, 07:28:27 pm
content: swapping the red and black wont help, you need to find were the white and red wires from the corridor switch go

author: Larsson55
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 29, 2024, 08:58:07 pm
content: How do I find where the white/red wires go?

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 29, 2024, 09:05:08 pm
content: You have to carefully, and safely, after isolating all the breakers and ensuring the power is off, remove the switches from the wall, and use a continuity tester to find out which wires go where. You might want to put an incandescent bulb in the fixture so you can use a resistance tester to find out which wires go to the light. Then you can label the wires, or sketch the findings on paper.With this information, you should be able to determine the correct connections for the wires.

author: WattsThat
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2024, 01:24:32 am
content: Some additional info would help provide some context for the problem.1. Is this a problem you inherited with the purchase of the house or did you change switches and/or make changes that created the problem?2. How old is the construction, or if a remodel, when were things wired?The fact that there is a red wire on one switch would imply that there is a piece of 14/3 run between the two switches. A 14/3 cable would contain a black, white, red and bare conductor. This is the current North American standard way to connect two three way switches - where the red and black wires are the “travelers” between the switches and the white is the neutral. Having a white wire on one of the traveler terminals is sign things are wired incorrectly.You might be able to figure things out by identifying the cables that enter/leave the switch boxes. In order to do that, you would typically need to remove one or more, perhaps all of the switches to see the cables and follow the individual wires to those cables. The drawing shows cables and colors for the convention way of wiring three way switches to a light.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2024, 02:57:42 am
content: Quote from: WattsThat on August 30, 2024, 01:24:32 amI don't know that there is a single conventional way of wiring things. I think it might depend on the particular building, and how the main power circuits were run when it was constructed (behind the walls, above the ceiling, or both).For example, in the diagram above, the main power might feed in to the box on the right, rather than on the left. That would leave the switch box on the left as a satellite, with a single run of 14/3 able leading to it from the box on the right. You could have black (hot) running out, and red/white running back as the return.For another example, you could have the main power directly feeding the light receptacle on the ceiling, and a cable running down behind the wall to the switch(es).I think it all depends on what the electrician found most convenient at the time, and what used the least amount of cable.Therefore, since there is no way to know what you will find in any particular house, you have to diagram it out.From my own experience, I do know that once you pull a rat's nest of wires out of a wall box, it can be very difficult to squeeze them all back in again. Nevertheless, if you really want to figure out what's what, you may have to do it.

author: Larsson55
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2024, 03:11:47 am
content: Many thanks for your post,The house was build in 1986 and been living here for the last 25 years. I replaced the switch in the corridor myself when I bought the house with a programmable timer and it was working good until last November when we had a power failure due to a storm. After the storm the timer was not working and decided to install a "simple" 3-way switch instead. After some unsuccessful tries I gave up due to other priorities and now is the time to give it another try to get it working properly.Referring to my posted schematic it is true that the power comes from the box on the left, and the light is "in the middle of the run". On the switch on the right the wiring stops there.Your observation about the white wire been connected to one of the travelers is important to me and I'm asking is it safe to try and switch the RED/WHT wires to see the results? If its wrong would it just trip the breaker?Tomorrow I will try to open the left switch and identify the wires + open the ceiling light to do the sameMany thanks

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2024, 03:27:19 am
content: OK, so if the corridor box is where you have replaced the switch, and if that box only has a single cable coming into it with black/red/white/ground, then you should not have to touch the box in the family room (yet).First thing to do is to make sure the incoming black wire is truly hot. Test it (carefully) with a meter or voltage tester to make sure it is really carrying power. Then, make sure you are connecting that black wire to the correct terminal on the switch. Look at the wiring diagram that came with the switch to make sure. Or remove the switch and test it with a meter. The screws can sometimes be in different places, and it is not always obvious.You want the black wire to go to the common terminal. The common terminal will have continuity to either of the 2nd and 3rd terminals depending on the switch setting (but not both). If you connect the black wire to the wrong terminal, the circuit won't work properly.If the black wire is not hot, then you may have to investigate the family room. But if it worked before the switch replacement, there is very little chance anything is wrong there. That's a last resort.If the black wire is hot, but your replacement switch does not behave properly when tested with a continuity meter, then your new switch might be faulty. (Again, make sure the switch is completely removed before you test it. Do not try to test it in-circuit.)

author: Larsson55
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2024, 04:23:18 am
content: Very happy to hear what you are saying IanB, thank you.I tested today the black wire and it is live. Also as per my schematic the black wire is connected to the dark colored screw. Tomorrow I will remove the switch and test the continuity between the dark screw and the other 2 screws to assure I have continuity.Can you please answer what I said earlier? switch the white wire to where the red is now and put the red wire to where the white wire was?Will do this work tomorrow morning.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2024, 04:32:24 am
content: If the black wire is connected to the right screw terminal, then swapping the red and white wires will make no difference.If the black wire is connected to the wrong screw terminal, then swapping the red and white wires will not make it work.So don't do that.First, make sure the black wire is connected to the correct terminal. Then connect the red and white wires to the other two terminals in either order. It doesn't matter which way round.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2024, 11:19:29 am
content: is there always power on the black wire regardless of what way the other switch is switched?

author: JDubU
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2024, 01:55:42 pm
content: Watch this video starting at the 5 minute mark:Note that all white wires (neutral) are connected together in each box and are not attached at all to either switch. They form a direct connection between the power source and the light.The red wire (one of the two "traveler" wires) only forms a direct connection between the two switches.The black wires have two different uses depending on location. They are either hot wires (from the power source and to the light) or they are used as the second "traveler" wire between the two switches.

author: Larsson55
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2024, 03:26:47 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on August 30, 2024, 04:32:24 amWe have not define which is the "correct terminal". As per attached snips the BLK wire is connected to the dark colored screw and the WHT / RED to the other brass colored screws. The BLK is LIVE and checking with my continuity meter there is continuity between the BLK and the other 2 screws. With this setup only the family room switch is working to turn the corridor light ON/OFF.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2024, 03:54:12 pm
content: Quotedid you remove the lamps before testing? otherwise you could be reading through a parallel path thats giving strange results

author: Larsson55
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2024, 04:01:48 pm
content: I removed the lamp and have continuity between BLK & RED.What I find strange that the wiring is the original since the house was built and the timer I had installed before worked for so many years. So there is no point checking the wiring in the family room switch or by the light. Perhaps I should connect the RED to the dark colored screw?

author: JDubU
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2024, 04:03:16 pm
content: With the timer, was the red wire connected to anything?

author: Larsson55
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2024, 04:10:13 pm
content: Sorry, I dont remember but somehow I believe one wire was not connected cause I remember something funny about it.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2024, 04:10:37 pm
content: Quotedoes it change when you flip the switch in family room switch

author: Larsson55
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2024, 04:16:40 pm
content: Yes there is a change. With the family room switch in one position have continuity between BLK & RED, the switch in the other position I have continuity between BLK/RED and BLK/WHT

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2024, 04:38:08 pm
content: Quote from: Larsson55 on August 30, 2024, 03:26:47 pmYes, we have defined which is correct terminal:Quote from: IanB on August 30, 2024, 03:27:19 amNote, the common (black?) terminal should NOT have continuity to the other two screws. It should have continuity to only one screw at a time, depending on which way the switch is set. If it has continuity to both screws, then the switch is faulty and needs replacing.(Just checking, you did completely remove the switch from the circuit before you did the continuity test between the switch screw terminals?)

author: Larsson55
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2024, 05:10:11 pm
content: The switch was removed from the box and at the top of my workbench, it has continuity only between each terminal like it should, so the switch is good.Now the empty wires in the box with the power ON and the other switch in the family room in one position I have voltage between the BLK and RED and when no volts between BLK and WHT. Turning the switch in the family room to the other position I have volts between the BLK and the RED or WHT. This is wrong to my limited experience.Perhaps as it was mentioned before I should only connect the BLK and RED or WHT but not both?

author: JDubU
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2024, 05:16:13 pm
content: When you made that test, was the load (light bulb) removed? If not, remove the light bulb and do the same test again.

author: Larsson55
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2024, 05:18:40 pm
content: With the bulb in place or removed its the same

author: Larsson55
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2024, 05:24:36 pm
content: I dont know if it matters or not but the corridor ceiling fixture has 2 sockets and I only have 1 bulb installed.

author: JDubU
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2024, 05:34:25 pm
content: If it's a fixture that turns both sockets on with a single switch, it does not make a difference.While the timer was activated and the light was on, could you still turn the light on and off with the FR switch?

author: Larsson55
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2024, 05:46:38 pm
content: Yes, when I had the timer which it was also a switch I could turn the lights ON/OFF from either the timer or the family room switch. The timer was there only to turn ON/OFF the corridor light between the set times it was programed.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2024, 05:52:38 pm
content: Quote from: Larsson55 on August 30, 2024, 05:10:11 pmI suppose from the above, you have established that there is a common terminal on the three way switch, and this common terminal is black?QuoteThis does seem wrong. Only one wire, red or white, should have voltage with black at a time (assuming there is a bulb in the fixture). But you have to be careful about ghost voltages. Sometimes it might look like there is a voltage but there isn't really. You have to test voltage with a proper voltage tester and not the volts range on a multimeter. Or pull the breaker and do continuity tests.QuoteNo, all three wires need to be connected.If you connect the black wire to the common terminal of the corridor switch, then connect the red and white wires to the other two terminals, in either order, then it should work.If it does not work, then you will have to open up the family room end and examine how the switch is wired there.

author: Larsson55
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2024, 06:14:23 pm
content: It looks like I come to the same point I was last November when I gave up to fix the problem and I'm very surprised since the corridor had before a 3-way switch since the house was build and no wiring has been changed.I can't open the family room end switch today due to visitors because this location has 2 more ON/OFF switches and it means I have to switch OFF the breakers for all 3 switches. Most likely tomorrow or Sunday and I will post the findingsMany thanks to all for the great help

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2024, 06:26:43 pm
content: Quote from: Larsson55 on August 30, 2024, 04:16:40 pmWait. If you pull the breaker there is no complete circuit, so there should be no continuity between any pair of wires. If you measure continuity with a continuity meter, the only time you should find a connection is going point to point between the corridor and the family room.Inside the corridor box, there should be no continuity between any pair of wires.Please confirm again, there is only one cable entering the corridor switch box?And the black wire is always hot (measured against ground), with the family room switch in either position?

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2024, 06:44:16 pm
content: QuoteAll depends how the other switch is wired,if its the method which seems most common in the usa,or the conduit method as i call it,feed in on one common 2 strapers between switches and feed off to the light on the other common then yes there shouldn't be any continuity between wires , however if ifs wired "conversion method" or "loop in method" depending on who you ask, thats fairly common here in the uk then you would expect continuity between between 2 wires

author: Larsson55
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2024, 06:53:21 pm
content: The breaker was ON and using a test lamp (dont know how you call it but its specifically made to insert the ends to a socket to tell you if its live or not). So this test is not a continuity test but rather to say if I have powerThere is only one cable entering the corridor switch boxThe BLK wire is always hot with the family room switch in either position. I didnt touch the ground, I put one tip of my test lamp to the BLK and the other tip on RED

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2024, 07:04:41 pm
content: Quote from: Larsson55 on August 30, 2024, 06:53:21 pmThat's not how you test for hot wires. You put the tester between the wire under test and ground. (Note, this might trip a GFCI.)So you need to test between black and ground, red and ground and white and ground, with the family room switch in either position, in order to find which wire(s) are energized.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2024, 07:06:50 pm
content: Quote from: themadhippy on August 30, 2024, 06:44:16 pmYes, I saw someone show that method once, but I find it hard to get my head around it without drawing out the circuit on paper.

author: Larsson55
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2024, 07:14:08 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on August 30, 2024, 07:04:41 pmThat's not how you test for hot wires. You put the tester between the wire under test and ground. (Note, this might trip a GFCI.) So you need to test between black and ground, red and ground and white and ground, with the family room switch in either position, in order to find which wire(s) are energized. I'm afraid to touch the GND IanB but I will do it now you ask me and hopefully I will not get any sparks! I will post back the results soon

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2024, 07:17:01 pm
content: QuoteIt makes more sense in the uk were we have lighting on its own circuit and loop the feed between fittings with just a 2 core and earth dropped to the switches,to make the switching 2 way you just add a 3 core n earth between your switches.

author: Larsson55
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2024, 08:25:33 pm
content: Will take me more time to get the results which are different than I posted begore. Later on tonight

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2024, 08:44:45 pm
content: Quote from: themadhippy on August 30, 2024, 07:17:01 pmOff topic, but houses built before about 1960 did not have earth on the lighting circuits. It was just a two core, 5 amp. It can be really annoying when you don't find an earth wire where you want it.

author: Larsson55
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2024, 09:24:05 pm
content: Below are readings with the light bulb removed and readings taken between wire and ground with my light tester gadget.Corridor switch in one position:BLK and GND = Light OFFRED and GND = Light ONWHT and GND = Light ON but dimmed (no full intensity)Corridor switch in another position:BLK and GND = Light OFFRED and GND = Light ON very brightWHT and GND = Light ON very brightDont know how to describe but the test light gadget has low intensity and high - very bright

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2024, 09:37:38 pm
content: That's now a puzzle that I couldn't solve without getting out a pen and paper, and spending some time working on it. Maybe later, after work. Right now, no idea.

author: WattsThat
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2024, 11:58:18 pm
content: Please post a photo of the light test “gadget”. If it has a name and model on it that would be even better.Edit:addedIs there any difference in brightness between Red and Gnd in the two groups?What was the brand/model of timer that you used?Theory: the timer required a neutral (white) which was added. There may be a floating, loose but taped off black wire in the box. The white needs to be removed (if it is a pigtail) and the lost black wire goes where the white was removed.

author: Larsson55
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2024, 01:02:04 am
content: Here it is, have it for more than 30 years, it must have a name

author: MarkF
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2024, 02:24:53 am
content: I haven't been following this much.From the picture with the switches, it looks like there are only 3 wires at each switch???All the wires at the switches will be hot at some time or another.In which case, you have all the connections and power at the light:You will need to identify the two traveler wires (I'm guessing red and white from your photo).You really need to take the light fixture apart.Another thing you can try is to disconnect both switches, find which of the six wires is hot (has power), connect that switch again with the hot wire on the dark terminal, find which of the wires at the other switch is hot toggling the connected switch (those two wires are the travelers), connect the 3rd (non-traveler) to the last switches dark terminal and the two travelers other two switch terminals.If a 3-way switch is working the dark terminal should connect to one of the brass terminals. Then when the switch is thrown, the dark terminal should connect to the other brass terminal. The two brass terminals should never be connected together.IF!!!The light is wired correctly.Any possible way of making connects at the switches will result in:- light works correctly- light never comes on- light never goes offAre there any bare ground wires in the switch boxes?

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2024, 02:31:52 am
content: Quote from: Larsson55 on August 30, 2024, 09:24:05 pmOK, MarkF just jumped in, but I think I know what's going on.Firstly, I think by using a neon tester, it is sensitive to ghost voltages, and that is misleading. Only when it lights at full brightness should we consider the wire to be energized.See below a picture, with credit to BigClive for drawing it. I borrowed it from one of his videos, but I think it explains the wiring and the measurements obtained.Position 1 is the second test (OFF/ON/ON), and Position 2 is the first test (OFF/ON/OFF).Basically, it seems like your white wire should go to the common terminal, red should go to L1, and black should go to L2. That will likely make the three way switching work properly.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2024, 02:34:34 am
content: that looks suspiciously like a neon,does it glow orange? if so there to sensitive for fault finding as they can light up if a sparrow fartsQuotewe've only seen inside 1 switch,the other is a 3 gang so live and neutral could be sourced from there

author: Larsson55
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2024, 06:41:55 am
content: Regarding the post from MarkF, I think I did with the RED as common and BLK/WHT as travelers and it didn't work but I can give it another try to see the results. If I have to I can open the switch in the family room and identify the travelers + I can remove the light fixture and do the same.Regarding the post from IanB, its true my neon light glows orange and the reading when its dimmed is misleading. The schematic with position 1 and 2 looks good to me and it's the first work I will do tomorrow (having the WHT as common and the RED / BLK as travelers). However I have a problem here, since MarkF stated that "The two brass terminals should never be connected together" should I open the switch in the family room to ID which brass screw the RED and BLK wires are connected so I can connect these wires to the same screw in the corridor switch?.

author: paulca
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2024, 08:42:32 am
content: It's surprisingly difficult to explain these circuits to people. Not that they are particularly hard to understand, just hard to explain in laymans.The way I got to understanding them is:There are 2 live circuits. Each switch chooses which is connected through to live and which isn't. Therefore if you move either switch you "invert" the state because you cause the 'other' circuit to be in use. If the one you had switched was live then the other isn't and vv.If you 'need' to, it doesn't really mater, but you can consider one a feeder and one in control of the light (although this is not necessary).The concept can be further enforced by considering an "intermediate" switch. It takes the two live circuits and swaps them. (like an X) You would use this on very long stairways to have another "2 way" switch half way up.I think the biggest hurdle at the outset is that, to a layman, a switch is ON or OFF. There is a challenge to change that thinking as almost all installed switches (here anyway) are 2 way. Sure if you have 1 of them live and the other disconnected it is a 1 way. It's just cheaper to buy bulk 2 ways. So, like DPST switches, BOTH positions (ON or OFF) have connections and the switch simply chooses which one is connected.EDIT: It is somewhat (arguably) easier over here in the UK because we have that funky light wiring where we "send / return" the live to the switch from the lamp fitting. So there are no neutrals to worry about. Previously all wires were red. When you were installing them you could place a number of knicks in the insulation so you knew which was which when you came back to fit it out 2 months later. Today it's brown and blue and possibly grey. I don't think there are any hard and fast rules. I don't think they sell "double brown" cable.

author: MarkF
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2024, 08:52:46 am
content: You should really first determine where the light is getting power from (i.e. the light box or the switch box).By pulling the other switch away from its box, you should be able to "visually" determine which configuration of 3-way you have. If the 3 wires connected to that switch leave that box in one cable (a 14/3 cable, a carbon copy of the photo of the opposite switch) then the power is coming from the light box. If there are additional wires coming from else where or there is a 14/4 cable leaving the box, the power is feed at that switch.Assuming you have a bare ground wire connected to each metal box, take the wires off of the dark terminal of each switch and remove the light bulb. Try each of the six wires with your tester to the metal box. Only one of the six wires should turn on your tester. It will be the power feed wire and it will go to the dark terminal of the switch at that box. Then by toggling that switch, the two traveler wires at the opposite switch should light your tester to the metal box.Always test between a wire and the metal box with a bare ground wire. That way you're not putting your tester in series with any of the feed wires. If you metal boxes are NOT grounded with a bare wire, you will have to do something else.Have you tested both 3-way switches? You may just be fighting a bad switch.A closeup picture of the other switch and box would be helpful.Along with the previous connection diagram, here is the 2nd possible wiring you might have:

author: MarkF
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2024, 09:18:39 am
content: Quote from: paulca on August 31, 2024, 08:42:32 amPerhaps it's easier not to think of switching On/Off but switching between traveler wires. When the two switch line up to the same traveler the light is On. Either switch can select the opposite traveler and the light goes Off.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2024, 12:33:41 pm
content: QuoteThat used to be the way.but due to the rise of smart switch that require a neutral its becoming more common to either run a 3 core n earth for the switch line or wire it the 'merican way with the feed going to the switchQuoteyou've obviously lived a very sheltered life,whilst twin red T+E did exist its about as rare as rocking horse manure,same goes for twin brown.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2024, 01:15:01 pm
content: Quote from: Larsson55 on August 31, 2024, 06:41:55 amFor the moment, I think MarkF is distracting you. Put that to one side.I think it somewhat likely that my deduction about the wiring is correct. So before you try to open up the switch in the family room, just try having white as common, red and black as travelers. See if it works before doing anything else.Bear in mind what MarkF said:Quote from: MarkF on August 31, 2024, 02:24:53 amIn other words, connecting wires to the wrong terminals should just result in the light not working properly. It is not likely to cause any major upsets.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2024, 01:25:43 pm
content: If you have a continuity meter, you can test if the schematic below matches the wiring.Pull the breaker so the power is off, and remove the bulbs from the light fitting, then test for continuity between pairs of wires.With the family room switch one way, white and red should be connected and black should be floating. With the switch the other way, white and black should be connected and red floating:

author: Larsson55
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2024, 01:55:30 pm
content: I was planning this morning to finish this job but after opening the family room switch I better wait for more help. I have attached some pictures here and these explanations.The family room switch has a small gauge wire (perhaps 18AWG) which connects the dark color screw to the common RED. No idea why this is done and if you ask me to remove this small wire I will not do itThe ceiling wiring is just normal, there are 2 cable coming into the box, the 2 RED are tight together and the same for the 2 whites. The 2 blacks one connects to one light socket and the other connects to the other light socket.My question now is should I go ahead and do my connections in the corridor switch?The WHT to common and the RED / BLK to the other terminals?Regarding the continuity test IanB, with the family room switch in one position I have continuity between WHT & RED but when I flip the switch in the family room I have no continuity between any wires.Thanks

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2024, 02:35:00 pm
content: my guess is someones been in there before,presume the switch in the drawing labeled corridor switch is the one family room and part of the 3 gang switch,and the 3 cores at the ceiling light are the same 3 cores at the switches , on the family room switch id disconnect the black and remove the link on red. leaving it on the common (dark terminal) the other end of the link goes to a permanent live.The black wire (wrap a bit of white tape around it for future reference )goes to neutral,red and white (flag it with red tape ) stay were they are.At the other switch black to common ,red and white (again flag it red) to the other 2 terminals.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2024, 02:38:11 pm
content: I assume you wrote "corridor" on your sketch, when you meant "family room"?You said that previously a timer switch was installed in the corridor/hallway? Who installed that?Is suspect that it was incompatible with three way switching, and whoever installed it changed the wiring around to disable three way switching and make it work.You would now need to trace out all the wiring, find out what goes where, and then put the wiring back the way it is supposed to be, which would include removing that small jumper wire, and perhaps reconnecting other wires to different switch terminals.I think the reason for the jumper wire is that someone converted the three way switch into a two way switch.

author: Larsson55
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2024, 04:04:37 pm
content: You are right IanB, I made a mistake the corridor switch schematic is for the family room.The timer switch was installed by myself. When I did that I never touched the family room switch and even if I did my knowledge is very limited to be able to install that small jumper wire. Another scenario is perhaps the existing corridor switch was regular switch (2 way?) but the instructions of the timer switch was enough to do the installation for any switch.I am not able to do any work in the family room switch cause it's so packed with wires and I'm afraid if I remove the switch out I may disturb other wires and open a can of worms which I will not be able to handle.So I will connect back the corridor switch like its shown in my first post which will allow me to operate the light from the family room but not from the corridor switch. I'm very sorry for all the work I created for all of you and myself, I thought it would have been just something very simple.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2024, 04:12:08 pm
content: It probably would be simple for an electrician to fix. Perhaps you might consider calling one in?As it stands, it does not appear you can make it work as a three way switch unless you adjust the wiring in the family room switch box.Perhaps someone messed with it before you moved into the house? There was all sorts of crazy stuff in my house when I moved in.By the way, what themadhippy suggested makes sense. Connect the permanent hot feed wire to the common terminal in the family room switch, remove the jumper wire, let red and white on L1 and L2 be the runners to the corridor switch where they connect also to L1 and L2. Connect the black wire to common on the corridor switch, where it goes up to the light and back to the family room. In the family room, the black return wire from the light is tied to the neutral in the power feed with a wire nut.

author: SuzyC
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2024, 04:55:30 pm
content: The SuzyC MCU solution: I would remove the timer and discard it and uss this space to install a tiny black box with 7 station screw-connection block. This block is does all the wire connection interface:Now I would identify the two wires only going to the corridor switch and also two wires from the nearby family room switch.Both switches will simply be Single Pole Single Throw switches, either one can be open or closed and both are only connected only to the "Lamp MCU Logic Box" No AC power connection!The Lamp MCU Logic Box" LMLB can be simply an epoxy blob or a small project box with just the screw-pressure block exposed to the world.Find the Hot AC and Neutral wires and connect to the LMLB.Connect the remote and local light switches to3 stations (center station ground) of the same screw-pressure block.Find the Room Lamp wires (two) and connect them to 2-stations of the same screw-pressure box.Using a capacitor-resistor RC (.47uF/250VAC series 470-ohm 1w) to a LV bridge rectifier with a 12-V zener diode and 100uF filter cap. The output of this bridge rectifier connects to a 7805 voltage regulator and 100-uf filter cap. This is the LMLB power supply for the 12F1572 DIP8 pin MCU.Each of the two family room and Corridor switches connect to an input pin on the MCU with a 1000-ohm pull-up resistor to5V.The MCU will output a light on/off signal to the 5V SS Relay whose output two pins are in series with the AC power and the two AC lamps.Program Logic:If either switch changes from open to closed or from closed to open thenif Lights are on thenTurn lights offelseTurn lights on.//------------------------------------------//some very simple debounce delay logic with .1-uf caps bypass across switch connections to MCU pins may be added for noise immunity.Once I would have got it working I would mold the entire circuit into an Epoxy Blob or else mount in a tiny project case and mount it in the wall switch panel where the timer switch was located. Only the screw-pressure connect block top would be exposed.J am pleased to give credit to Rube Goldberg for inspiration on how to practically realize this 3-way light switch solution.But to tell the truth, I would very likely solve this problem this way!

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2024, 05:05:47 pm
content: Quote from: SuzyC on August 31, 2024, 04:55:30 pmOh. Overkill, much?

author: SuzyC
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2024, 05:08:23 pm
content: But, as we say at the asylum, "I did it MY way!"

author: Larsson55
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2024, 05:12:51 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on August 31, 2024, 04:12:08 pmI was thinking to call an electrician but about 15 years ago I had to call one to fix the power entry to the house which was damaged by a storm and if I remember I was charged $70.00/hr. Now most likely will be $140 + taxes - not worth it for something not so important. The family room switch I use very often but the corridor switch hardly.It is possible someone messed with the wiring before I bought the house but since I moved here no electrician has been inside the house. When I moved in I had to replace all light fixtures, wall outlets and plugs cause they were too old but no wiring changes - just remove the old and install the new. Unfortunately I don't remember if the corridor switch was 2 or 3 way.As I mentioned I cant touch the family room switch, its too congested with wires and definitely I will screw up something and create more work.Many thanks to all

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2024, 05:30:31 pm
content: I have come to appreciate systems that simply use an impulse relay* in the breaker box to switch the lights, and then each light switch is a momentary pushbutton that toggles the relay on and off. Unlimited number of buttons and simple wiring.*A relay/contactor that toggles between off and on each time an electrical pulse is applied to its coil.

author: SuzyC
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2024, 05:32:37 pm
content: Impulse relays may be harder to source than simple SS SPST relays.OP, have a little courage and use a careful touch and likely nothing will be disturbed!

author: MarkF
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2024, 06:30:36 pm
content: From what you found at the ceiling light, the power feed is at the family room switch. And the traveler wire colors are red and white. The problem and the fix is in the family room switch. Both switches should have the red and white wires connected to the brass colored terminals.At the family room switch, you need to identify the three 14/3 wires coming from the light. The red and white of which go to the switch. The black (being used as a ground, not a common use) should go to the feed white wire. The feed black wire goes to the small (you said 18 gauge) wire should be connected to the dark switch terminal.Green text indicates the colors you have.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2024, 06:43:50 pm
content: Impulse relays (which have a bunch of other names too) are a completely standard part for commercial installations, something any electrical supplier should have on hand.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2024, 07:10:52 pm
content: impulse relays?? come on get with the times ,just chuck a kinetic receiver at every light point and pair it with upto 10 kinetic switches,added bonus no switch wires or batteries neededQuoteno its not, its being use as a neutral,whilst there nearly the same thing getting your ground and neutral mixed up or joined together on the consumers side is a good way to test your rcd/gfi

author: Larsson55
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 01, 2024, 12:48:19 pm
content: Back again guys, hopefully this time we will solve the wiring mystery. I bought a new programmable timer Eaton AT18HM and I include its wiring schematics. This switch has 4 connections (3-Way or Travelers, Load, Hot and Neutral). I did try all possible combinations and had no success. The attached pictures are all from the Family Room(FR) switch which has this RED jumper (18AWG) and last time we did not know what it's for. Can someone tell me the purpose of this jumper and if I can remove it? Then tell me how to wire the new timer I bought?Thanks

author: MarkF
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2024, 11:06:11 pm
content: In your last photo, the 18awg red wire is wrong.In any 3-way or 4-way switch configuration,no two of the switch terminals will ever be connected together.Remove it.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2024, 11:40:07 pm
content: Did you get the23 way lighting to work with a normal switch?

author: Larsson55
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 03, 2024, 12:26:25 am
content: Thank you MarkF for the help. The 18awg red wire (jumper) has been there since I bought the house some 25 years ago and no one has ever touched that switch except now. Your statement that this jumper disables half of the switch is correct because only recently I learned the purpose of this jumper is to convert a 3 way switch to a regular ON/OFF.Your schematic helps but although I removed the red jumper wire I have not been able to get the 3 way switch and the new timer to work but I still try various combinations.themadhippy what do you mean by normal switch? Two regular ON/OFF switches? I know the light works when I use two regular 3 way switches but then the light works ON/OFF only from one of the 3 way, the other does nothing

author: MarkF
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 03, 2024, 12:34:04 am
content: The two wires not connected to the Dark terminal should leave the box in a 3 conductor cable. What is that 3rd conductor connected to? (It should be the neutral)The black wire connected to the Dark terminal should be the hot wire coming from the bundle of black wires with a wire nut.Does the black wire connected to the Dark 3-way terminal also connect to the other two single switches?You should also have a bundle of white wires with one black that don't go to any switch?Is there a 2nd 3-way switch in that box?Forget about the new timer until you get the light working with the 3-way switches.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 03, 2024, 01:49:02 am
content: QuoteIf the circuit isnt working correctly with bog standard23 way switches what makes you think adding a timer into the mix is going to sort things? get the circuit working correctly before you start introducing new problems.

author: MarkF
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 03, 2024, 02:30:05 am
content: Can you match your wiring to this drawing?

author: Larsson55
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 03, 2024, 03:21:17 am
content: The two wires not connected to the Dark terminal should leave the box in a 3 conductor cable. What is that 3rd conductor connected to? (It should be the neutral)Yes its the neutralThe black wire connected to the Dark terminal should be the hot wire coming from the bundle of black wires with a wire nut.Yes its trueDoes the black wire connected to the Dark 3-way terminal also connect to the other two single switches?NOYou should also have a bundle of white wires with one black that don't go to any switch?I have a bundle of white wires but no black in this bundleIs there a 2nd 3-way switch in that box?Yes this box has two 3 way and one regular switchForget about the new timer until you get the light working with the 3-way switches.No problemThe reason I try a new timer now is because I had a timer before in the same location for 20+ years (which I install it myself) and it was working perfect until due to a power outage it did not work after. So I thought perhaps these timers are easier to get them goingMarkF I like your schematic and will study and give it a try and will post back the results

author: MarkF
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 03, 2024, 10:40:58 am
content: I thought the bundle of black wires split the hot coming into the box into three wires to feed each switch.I also think there should be another bundle of four wires which split the neutral line into three for the return from each light. The wires in this bundle would come in and leave without being connected to any of the switches.If this is not the case, you will need to sort out how power is getting to the box. You have multiple feeds coming into the box and a mystery of what all those extra wires are for.Before you go too far down the rabbit hole, remove that thin red wire on the switch and see if the light works as expected.

author: Larsson55
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 03, 2024, 02:56:32 pm
content: Its getting too complicated MarkF, in that box there are at the back two cables with 3 conductors each (blk, red, wht) + 2 more cables with 2 conductors each. The box is rally packed. One of the 2 cables with the 3 is feeding the 3-way switch and the rest I can't figure out where they are going - too difficult to see.Your schematic has the wires to the light after the switch and in my case the light is in the middle of the run, don't know if it makes a difference.Just called a local company to have the switch installed and forget about it and we are talking about +200.00 for a visit!!! So forget about paying this kind of money to have a switch installed

author: Larsson55
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 03, 2024, 03:02:55 pm
content: Sorry forgot to mention that the thin red wire on the switch is removed

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 03, 2024, 03:11:38 pm
content: Quote from: Larsson55 on December 03, 2024, 03:21:17 amDid the timer previously have two-way switching on the light? If so, what did the timer do? Like, for instance, if you turned the light off with the remote switch, would the timer turn it on again? It's very confusing when you say "timer", since it is hard to understand what it did.When I think timer, I think of a switch that you push and the light stays on for a minute or so, and then switches off again. This kind of timer? If so, how did it used to work with the remote switch in the other location?

author: Larsson55
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 03, 2024, 03:27:37 pm
content: It was a programmable timer (like the one I just bought now) where you set the times / days when the light will go ON/OFF. I had it set to turn the light ON at midnight and OFF at 6AM for every day and it worked for all these years. Very strange IanB to have now this impossible situation

author: Larsson55
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 03, 2024, 03:36:50 pm
content: Had this idea just now, I will return the timer I just bought and get another type, kind of more simple. The one I have now it's called "Astronomic Programmable Timer"

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 03, 2024, 03:45:04 pm
content: Quote from: Larsson55 on December 03, 2024, 03:27:37 pmNo. This still does not make any sense.A two way switching arrangement has one light, two switches. You can turn the light on at one switch, and turn it off at the other switch. Or vice versa.How exactly does an on/off timer fit into this arrangement? How does it turn the light on at one end and turn it off at the other end? Did the lights ever work this way?My confusion remains.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 03, 2024, 04:37:13 pm
content: Quotestop wasting your time,get the circuit working correctly first with bog standard manually operated 3 way switches .

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 03, 2024, 04:44:32 pm
content: Quote from: themadhippy on December 03, 2024, 04:37:13 pmExactly. If it doesn't work with a simple switch, it will never work with a timer.So put the timer on the shelf, use a simple three way switch, and figure out the wiring to make it work.

author: MarkF
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 03, 2024, 05:50:00 pm
content: Quote from: Larsson55 on December 03, 2024, 02:56:32 pmMy schematic has the light in the middle of the run just like your wiring:As for wires, you have two sets of three conductor wires (one set goes to the switch you're working on the other to the middle 3-way switch). You say there's two sets of two conductor wires. One of these must go to the single switch and the other must be power coming into the box. At a minimum the single switch on the left will have both of one of the sets of two connected to it (power, light, or whatever all at the other end). Should be easy enough to see. The other option is that the single switch and both 3-way switches are powered from the second set of two wires.You said you traced the black wire on the dark switch terminal and the black wire (of three conductor) to the neutral. Are they both going to the one of the two conductor cables?If this power coming in is wired correct, your light should be working. Near as I can tell, both 3-way switches and the light are wired correctly and match my schematic. It's now just the power feed.Do you have a black and a white wire on the single switch on the left? Or two black wires?The 3-way switch in the middle, do all three wires from three conductor cable go to each of the three screws? (i.e. is it wired like your corridor 3-way switch?)

author: Larsson55
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 03, 2024, 08:55:51 pm
content: "No. This still does not make any sense.A two way switching arrangement has one light, two switches. You can turn the light on at one switch, and turn it off at the other switch. Or vice versa.How exactly does an on/off timer fit into this arrangement? How does it turn the light on at one end and turn it off at the other end? Did the lights ever work this way?My confusion remains. "------------------------------------------------------------Just to answer your question IanB, the timer I installed 20+ years ago was also like a regular ON/OFF switch but it can also turn ON/OFF the light at pre-programmed times. It worked like that for so many years. As far as I know all programmed timers work the same, the button in the front of the timer acts like an ON/OFF switch. Perhaps in USA you call them something else----------------------------------------------------------------------------MarkF many thanks for the new schematic and to answer your questions.....All I know the 3 way switch in the Family room has a cable with 3 wires (BLK RED WHT) entering the box and connected to the switch, I did not pay too much attention where the other wiring was going since it was not important. We should not forget that since I moved into this house years ago no one has opened this box and all was working fine.As I mentioned in my #74 post I was thinking to pay an electrician to come and fix the problem but at $200 cost + the $50 I paid for the new timer was too much.The conclusion is that I returned the timer and bought another one (Leviton VPT24-W $36.00). Connected the BLK RED WHT wiring and nothing happens - the light did not come ON regardless the switch position in the Family room.So I removed the Leviton and connected an old 3 way switch I had (at the same time I re installed the red wire jumper in the Family room 3 way switch like it was before). The wiring on that switch is as per your schematic and still doesn't work. That switch must be in the up position otherwise the switch in the Family room doesn't work. If I have this switch in the down position the light is ON and the switch in the Family room does not turn OFF the light. Considering the frustration so far I'm happy!I will not do any other work folks cause this is an unsolvable mystery plus I think I will damage the circuit breaker in the panel after the so may times I turn it ON/OFFMany many thanks to all

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 03, 2024, 09:52:09 pm
content: Quoteis that the wire mentioned in post 51,the one that links the common /dark terminal to the terminal with the red wire? if so get rid of it,chuck it in the bin.just as a sanity check confirm continuity in the red wire between switches and the white wire with both swiches removed,also check the blacks in the switches are the ones apearing at the celling,if all thats good marks diagram WILL

author: Larsson55
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 03, 2024, 10:25:55 pm
content: Quote from: themadhippy on December 03, 2024, 09:52:09 pmSorry but for now I will not remove the red jumper unless an electrician does that, this jumper has been there since the house was built and there must be a reason. I will do the "sanity" check tomorrow.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 03, 2024, 10:41:48 pm
content: Quotein that case dont bother to sanity check the wiring as it will never work as a23 way lighting circuit with that link in place

author: MarkF
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 03, 2024, 11:06:21 pm
content: In one of the switch positions, the switch should be doing exactly what the little red jumper wire does.Since these are old 3-way switches and you have no way to test them, my guess is that one or both of the switches is bad.By the way, you said earlier that the jumper is to turn the 3-way switch into a 2-way switch. That is NOT true. If you want to use a 3-way as a single on/off switch, you just use the dark screw and one of the brass screws. Ignoring the second brass screw.At this point I don't know what to tell you to do. Unless you missed something and the wiring doesn't match my drawing or there is a loose connection, it should work.The little jumper wire does indicate a bad switch. I suggest replacing both of them.

author: MarkF
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 03, 2024, 11:13:21 pm
content: You could also take the two red wires and the two white wires apart up at the light.Re-connect each making sure they are making good connection.While you have them apart. You could take you tester and check for power on one or the other (red/white) to the black wire. Toggle the switch and get power of the other (white/red) to black wires. WITHOUT THE JUMPER WIRE.There is NO scenario in any 2-way, 3-way or 4-way switch configuration where it is appropriate to have that jumper.If it's always been there, then the light never worked correctly.

author: Larsson55
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 04, 2024, 12:44:22 am
content: I appreciate you guys your knowledge and time but on my end I know that I bought this house in 1998 and have renovated myself twice but never touched the existing wiring. Only in the garage I added extra lights/plugs all from the existing wiring. In any case the garage wiring is on a different breaker. All I'm saying the red wire jumper was installed for a reason and during all these years I had no electrical problems. In addition, when I work in that box where the jumper is I have to cut the main power off and the family complains. I know there are only 2 breakers serving that box however there are so many wires in there and for my safety I feel better with the power off.

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 04, 2024, 08:07:09 am
content: Quote from: IanB on August 31, 2024, 02:31:52 amI find that drawing somewhat confusing and I have this schematic in my mind since many decades ago. They are basically the same but I find mine more intuitive.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 04, 2024, 01:06:42 pm
content: QuoteThe drawing by big clive ,whilst not initially intuitive,is how your likely to find a domestic 2 way circuit wired in the uk.It makes sense for the way we wire our lighting circuits as the "switch line" stays the same whether its a one way or 2 way circuit,plus it makes converting a one way circuit into a 2 way very easy.

author: Larsson55
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 04, 2024, 09:41:32 pm
content: Well folks the mystery is SOLVED!!! and the Jumper IS REQUIREDI knew I had programmable lights timer installed in the same location and was working for 20+ years and I was wondering why now it's not working. So just now I decided to search for "lights timer with no neutral" and what I find?INTERMATICS EJ500CI bought the old timer about 20 years ago and my local stores do not have any similar but it's available at eBay and Amazon for about $10.00I attach a portion of the users guide which explains how to install the "Jumper"So my "sanity" is back to normalMy thanks to all for the great help