Getting new HF rig--are used HF rigs a good value? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / rf-microwave

author: MarkKn
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2022, 12:53:52 am
content: Getting a new (to me) hf rig. Used to do ham stuff maybe 30 years ago, and re-starting the hobby. I have most of my modest steup figured out. There is the question of the transceiver itself. I like the idea of an icom 7300--but it looks like most internet outlets are out of stock. As I look at used rigs, some of them pretty old, it seems like the used rigs are overpriced compared to the value equation of the 7300. Right now I am only interested in CW at 40 meters, so I don't necessarily need something complicated, but maybe I would regret getting a minimal rig if I decide to expand what I am doing. I don't have my finger in the pulse of old hf rigs and what they are worth, like I am with computer gear.After at least 30 years of looking at want ads and craigslist when I want another computer, I think the sellers have an exaggerated idea of what their older stuff is worth and I almost always build a new computer. I am wondering if its like this with ham gear--the sellers have an inflated idea of what the used gear is compared to what is available new. I don't at all mean to be provocative here, just kind of feeling my way around hf stuff and wondering what the landscape looks like. BTW, I am thinking a 100 watt rig is the power for me. I had a yaesu 757gx back in the day--and I saw one of those used on ebay for $800--that struck me as a bit much. I am more comfortable fixing tube hear, so if I get an older solid state rig, is it common to replace all the electrolytics? I saw a cap kit on ebay for an older hf rig. Thoughts?

author: bob91343
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2022, 04:01:24 am
content: I haven't bought a new radio in many decades. I find that estate sales and such allow me to get some nice stuff at reasonable prices.My favorite radios are Kenwood. I now own two TS-940S and a TS-440S and a TS-520S. The 940s are, to me, the ultimate radio. These are in the process of upgrading; when that's done the 440 and 520 will be sold. The 440 is very good and has never hiccupped once in the years I have owned it. The 520 is dated, and probably would only appeal to a nostalgia freak; mine is nearly pristine, gotten from its original owner who never used it. All the radios have CW filters.Any of these radios would satisfy a ham who wants 40 CW. If you are into bells and whistles, well then you are on your own. I am not; I prefer a core of a solid radio that will keep going. Modern radios are far too involved for me, with all the menus and buried features. If I need to make some adjustment, I want to be able to reach for a knob and adjust it.

author: tkamiya
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2022, 12:00:58 pm
content: I agree with Bob....I think new designs depend too much for menus and combination of keystrokes. I like older radios and have many. But, one think that is negative for today's operation is stability. Newer digital modes require TCXO at minimum to maintain stability. It doesn't matter much for CW, but if you want to expand in future, it'll be an issue. There is no way FT101 and TS520/820 era radios will be stable enough for FT8, for example.Having said that, I love my Yaesu FR101/FL101!

author: ahbushnell
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2022, 02:30:08 pm
content: Quote from: bob91343 on April 03, 2022, 04:01:24 amHow do you find estate sales with Ham equipment? Thx

author: bob91343
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2022, 04:57:24 pm
content: Good question! In my case they sort of come to me. I check Craigslist (that's where I got my TS-520S) often and it's a good idea to get involved with a radio club. Often they have swap meets, SK sales, and individual items. Ask for help even if you can get by without it. Borrow a radio and see how you like it. Go to a club meeting and let it be known that you want to buy a radio.Once you get on the air, you make friends who can inform you of extra equipment. There are swap meets on the air as well and you don't have to transmit to take advantage of them. Here in California there is a swap net on the air on the weekends on 40 meters. For the most part, items are a bit overpriced but usually negotiable. My favorite negotiation phrase is 'do you want to get rid of this or not?'.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2022, 05:02:06 pm
content: I think most used ham equipment sold on ebay is overpriced. Sometimes ridiculously so.Ive recently been impressed by some new SDRs that are finally being sold for fairly decent prices.But you have to hunt the vendors out via their mailing lists. You wont find these radios on ebay or similar.I like the Hermes Lite 2 (requires a standalone computer)and the mchf standalone (its its own SDR radio and its a good one). Avoid the Chinese knockoffs on ebay.Both should cost you around $400 away from your ownership.. Not bad considering that similar radios might cost >$600 to buy from the traditional vendors.. Too expensive.

author: chrisl
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2022, 05:59:07 pm
content: Stay away from eBay or FB - people ask crazy $$$ for ham gears.eHam and QRZ have more reasonable price.For CW op on 40M TS830, TS130 should be more than plenty.

author: bob91343
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2022, 01:20:17 am
content: Actually for CW on 40 almost any radio would be fine. My TS-520S would serve well. It covers 10 through 160 (no WARC) and puts out 100 W. CW filter, speech processor, nice radio. But it's analog and carries with it the limitations thereof - imperfect frequency readout and stability (although I cobbled up a freq readout for it that resolves 10 Hz). I don't even use that radio; I got it because I wanted to qualify for the vintage SSB 75m net every Tuesday but have lost interest in that.My only warning is to stay away from a Swan radio; they are notorious for frequency drift. And no RIT.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2022, 04:29:55 pm
content: Prices on HF rigs online are ridiculously, ludicrously high too much of the time.I would rather build my own from scratch than pay so much.

author: bob91343
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2022, 04:56:11 pm
content: Building a rig today isn't what it used to be. I built my first rig running an 807 final, on 10 meters. I used the receiver power supply to run it. But I was a teenager and had no money for these things. You can't readily buy parts for such a project, today. Of course it would be solid state but just finding tuning components is difficult.It's simple to find an old radio and, if needed, repair it. There are literally hundreds, perhaps thousands, of them languishing in garages under tons of dust and rust. They appear now and then at swap meets and on Craigslist, but forget about auction sites or any other online sales.I reiterate my suggestion regarding going to club meetings and picnics. If you don't pay too much, it's a minimal risk and often one can recover the cost in a later transaction. I was on 40m CW last night and there was some DX there to be worked.

author: El Rubio
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 05, 2022, 12:54:21 am
content: I have bought and sold many radios and other gear on qth.com. I have never had a bad deal on there ( at least 20 things bought and sold. I trust hams. I find used HF rigs seem to hold their value like pickup trucks. I just saw a TS-180 in working condition for $295. He has an Icom P.S. for $50 too. You can post a want to buy ad as well. Good luck.

author: m3vuv
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2022, 01:27:49 pm
content: For what its worth,i always avoid yaesu rigs,when repairing them i often have to pull datasheets for finals etc,it always seems yaesu run components right on there upper limits!,i try to stick with kenwood,i find most of there components are run at 50% of there rated specs and not 90% as per yaesu,the only issues i have had with kenwoods is leaky caps due to age!.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2022, 03:00:57 pm
content: Quote from: bob91343 on April 04, 2022, 04:56:11 pmIt seems as if many "modules" are around now which could be tied together to make a functional transceiver. (although using it might be clunky or require one to write or even script ones own software tools to do it)I don't know. The possibility has been knocking around in my head for a while.

author: Wallace Gasiewicz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 12, 2022, 11:42:04 am
content: I have a few old radios.If you want a tube radio I suggest a Drake TR4, yes the PS may need recaps. I sold my tube Collins set because I thought the TR4 sounded better. (can't keep everything)The 940 has a bunch of problems but it is so popular that people fix it all the time, lots of resources, I prefer the 930, I think there are fewer problems.These are both really great sounding radios.The Kenwood 520, 530, 820, 830 series are good also. I have repaired a few.The receivers are pretty good, no AM. The 830 is the best one.The Yaesu 101 series is popular still. Many have been used on CB bands and have "mods" and have been beat up. The 101 ZD is a different radio and is more difficult to get on CB bands, it is a good radio.The Kenwood and Yaesu I mentioned only use tubes in the Transmit section.Icoms are good also.I'll hold my comments on Heathkit and Hallicrafters for now, other than they are easy to maintain.Most old tube radios will require PS cap upgrades soon if not immediately. Not hard, just takes time and is a bit expensive only if someone else does it.You wish to get exotic??I use a Military GRC 106 and a Sunair military type radio. The GRC is good and can be repaired, The Sunair is a mystery to work on.There are groups on Groips.io for each of these radios.Wally KC9INK

author: A.Z.
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 12, 2022, 03:35:38 pm
content: Quote from: MarkKn on April 03, 2022, 12:53:52 amA good pick may be a TS-940sat, it can be found for less than $700 in good conditions; if instead you are going for a new rig, you may consider a Yaesu FT-891 or, if you are ok with QRP (but you may add an amp later on), an Elecraft KX3 which imHo is a perfect CW machine; then, before buying anything, consider to invest some amount of your budget into a good antenna system (by "system" I mean everything going from the shack to the antenna, just to be clear)

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 12, 2022, 04:10:48 pm
content: The mcHF looks like a very good choice too, and not too expensive.

author: Wallace Gasiewicz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 12, 2022, 05:49:40 pm
content: If you are considering a Kenwood 930 or 940The tuner is of limited usefulness. Only tunes a mismatch of 2 or 3 to one.Much better to have an external tuner.

author: A.Z.
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 12, 2022, 07:35:22 pm
content: Quote from: Wallace Gasiewicz on April 12, 2022, 05:49:40 pmWallace, the tuner is there to allow matching a decent antenna system, not to match a barbed wire fencing

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 21, 2022, 07:09:23 pm
content: One can use a good matchbox to tune a tree, without chopping it down, or even climbing it to put a wire there. .Tall Tree as antenna.. Probably one with decent low angle of radiation/reception if tall enough. Roots as radials..Since trees conduct, kind of...

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 21, 2022, 07:12:06 pm
content: Some of those old tube radios can run into a bad mismatch all day long and not miss a beat.. But the prices on ebay are all over the map, often just insanely high.. Not even remotely a decent deal. Some of them are cult classics but relatively few compared to the bad deals..

author: A.Z.
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 22, 2022, 07:09:00 am
content: Quote from: cdev on April 21, 2022, 07:09:23 pmExactly so, a "good matchbox", but we are talking about the ATU built into a rig to allow adjusting the relatively "low" mismatch of a multiband antenna; also, you're sidetracking the topic, please let's stay ON topic, thanks

author: Wallace Gasiewicz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 23, 2022, 10:14:25 pm
content: Here is my philosophy on old or used radios:You buy one, let's say for $500You don't like it.You can sell it for $450 or $500You buy a new radio, You pay $2KYou don't like it.You sell it for $1200. Oh My!!! Hobby just cost you more money.If getting started in HF go for the used radio. Just my opinion. You could buy and sell three or four radios before you find the "one". And it would not cost very much, you could even break even. It could even be fun!About TS940I repair 930s and 940s. If you buy one, it would be nice to have a service person available. They are getting old. But, don't get me wrong, they are really great radios and lots of people really love them. And there is definitely a market for them used, although the prices on them are higher than a few years ago. I prefer the 930 over the 940. Again just my opinion. I have owned and repaired both models.My comment about the tuner was to set the OP at ease if the unit he buys does not have a tuner. An external tuner is relatively cheap and will do a good or better job.If you buy one without a tuner, don't worry about it. Again Just my opinion.

author: bob91343
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 23, 2022, 10:38:29 pm
content: I agree, Wallace, except for the comparison of the TS-930S with the TS-940S. I have owned and repaired both, and I much prefer the latter. Performance is nearly identical but memory management is better on the 940.As a matter of fact, I recently got a bit more serious than usual with my 940 and I can't remember ever using a better radio on CW. Interference rejection, copying through noise, and ease of use are impeccable. The RIT and XIT range of 10 kHz is excellent. A friend told me that the speech processor gave a signal improvement at his QTH of two S units. Add to that a good antenna and an amplifier, and I consistently break pileups. Best radio I have ever used.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 23, 2022, 11:53:43 pm
content: Ive always heard good about them. They must be great to inspire such glowing comments from owners

author: Wallace Gasiewicz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 24, 2022, 12:34:59 am
content: The last 930 unit I repaired was just great. The voice processor got many praises in OTA contacts. It is easy to set up once you are used to it. Many processors on older and newer rigs make you sound like Donald Duck. The one in the 930 is just great. Makes you sound like a DJ. Really the circuits in Rx and Tx are the same in both radios.The radio has to be set up internally well for everything to work well, there are lots of adjustments to keep repair people in coffee money.One of the reasons I prefer the 930 is the board layout. And the additional stuff in the 940 drains more current from the potentially troublesome PS.

author: medical-nerd
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 16, 2022, 03:07:30 pm
content: HiyaI use ebay - I just take my time and wait for a reasonably priced transceiver to be advertised and set myself a realistic limit to my bid - usually about 2/3 ofthe second hand asking price on ebay and elsewhere.You also have to decide whether digital modes will interest you in the future - its slightly more complicated with older transceivers.This has its disadvantages if you become a fanboy of a certain manufacturer - I look for transceivers I could never afford but always wanted.An easier approach would be one of the new QRP fully digital rigs and all a PA if required - this would be less than half the price of a 2nd hand transceiver.CheersSteveM0OYR

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 19, 2022, 02:38:59 pm
content: Quote from: medical-nerd on May 16, 2022, 03:07:30 pmI was just coming here to make a similar suggestion. Some of these QRP rigs also seem likely to make decent general coverage receivers and they are cheap, too.I am constntly amazed by how much some sellers want for these old boat anchor rigs. The prices are sometimes as high as they would have cost brand new.. 30 years ago.. I remember some of those prices.

author: bob91343
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 19, 2022, 06:07:51 pm
content: It's the old supply amd demand story. If you have something to sell, it's reasonable to try to get as much as possible. If someone comes along willing to pay your price, the market for the item has gone up.Getting upset over this is a waste of energy. You can ask $1500 for an S-38 receiver and if someone has that much to burn, there goes the neighborhood. Asking prices have an influence on the market but actual sales have a stronger effect.Meanwhile, technology advances and the older stuff may or may not get cheaper.So the answer to the OP is yes and no, it depends. As has been famously stated, quality is remembered long after price is forgotten. Don't worry too much about value; the years of pleasure you might get overshadow it. It's only a hobby, after all.

author: wizard69
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2022, 01:51:31 am
content: The best thing you can do is to not pay the high prices for used electronics. There is demand but often I think that is due to people scarred of new technology. Supply might be an issue with some models at this point in time but that has little to do wit the high prices of used ham gear which has been high for decades now.As an aside, a few years ago I was at a ham fest and walked buy a guy with a transceiver he had reconditioned with an excessive price tag on it. It was a rather old machine which in and of itself is not a problem, the problem was with a machine price tag almost as much as new radio of similar capability. That is just silly for a 30 year old radio. So I walked on.To put it in black and white if I can't get at least 50% off the new price, there is no sale coming for used electronics. That is for relatively recent old stuff, if it is more than a decade old 10 cents on the dollar often makes better sense. there may be cases of rare equipment that forces you to reconsider value but if we are talking equipment that is mainstream with several manufactures supplying the same thing, I don't feed the monster. Lets face it even though the number of suppliers has shrunk we still have plenty of radios to choose from.Quote from: MarkKn on April 03, 2022, 12:53:52 am

author: Kerlin
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2022, 11:36:01 pm
content: Recommend a TS440SAT, known as the last good non menu driven radio.Japanese made and reliable.Good performance and easy to work on, uses standard parts, simple to fix. Some mods have been sorted for it, plenty on the net.Full service manual available on the net, what are you going to do if your new pricey SDR radio fails - good luck, you'll need plenty of it, and where are you going to get the equipment parts and firmware to repair it, I had a generic one fail its now useless.I got a TS440SAT with the dot problem and just fixed it, if you are a real radio tech its easy to fix. Just remove the the five or so bits around there and scrap away the glue - done, easy. Step by step video on you tube. I think most have already been done by now anyway.Great for surfing the HF bands, is very pleasant to use, has Vacuum Florescent Display (VFD) and extra smooth big tuning knob, also keyboard if you want to use it.Maintained its value over the years, price hasn't moved since I bought it. Sure better than buying a toy one from you know where!

author: bob91343
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2022, 06:06:53 am
content: I have a 440 and it hasn't blinked an eye since I got it. Reliable, powerful, easy to operate, stable, and has the famous 'Kenwood audio'. I A/B it with my TS-940S and the other guy can't tell the difference. The '940 has a slightly better receiver and built in power supply.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2022, 07:08:08 am
content: I wouldn’t buy a new one. As mentioned if you buy a second hand one you probably won’t lose any money on it if you don’t like it and sell it.The Yaesu FT-450D is a good bet if you ask me. It turns up cheap, has general coverage receive, transmits on everything up to 6m, has built in ATU and importantly has a fairly decent DSP system built in so you don’t have to spend on filters like some older radios. I used it to learn CW on and it was pretty good for an HF radio and built like a tank. It’ll kick out 100W if you need it.If you are just using CW though, you don’t need a lot of transmit power despite what everyone says. I found the Yaesu FT818 to be excellent as well with a CW filter installed and that thing is a Swiss Army knife radio as it does 2m, 70cm and airband etc. Also very portable. I was regularly making contacts on that with 4W output.I eventually settled on an Elecraft K2 kit though. That was designed with CW operation in mind. Again a good buy if you get a cheap one that wasn’t assembled by an idiot. That’ll run rings around most of the other radios.Worth noting that older radios are more likely to require servicing and may have already been serviced by someone who has no idea what they are doing. Buyer beware.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2022, 11:49:52 am
content: CDEV get into a political, medical or religious discussion? Ban for life? Just curious. Site does seem to take out some long standing posters from time to time.

author: Kerlin
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2022, 11:20:39 pm
content: I haven't seen any service manuals for the for the FT450 so how to service it ? Is the FT450 surface mount, I handle surface mount every day but in that case I have a manual and spares available.I have put an external BHI DSP on my TS440SAT.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 15, 2022, 05:52:26 am
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on June 14, 2022, 11:49:52 amNot that it's relevant to this thread, but the decision to ban legitimate users isn't make lightly. One of two things happened in this instance, either he ignored repeated warnings to stop breaching the (rather flexible) rules of this forum or he requested that his account be banned.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2022, 06:32:38 am
content: Quote from: Kerlin on June 14, 2022, 11:20:39 pmService manualhttps://media.sm7iun.se/2019/10/FT-450_serv.pdfAll surface mount other than some of the higher power parts in the PA chain. Parts orderable directly from Yaesu still.