Choosing hobbyist PCB software in 2023 - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: baylf2000
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: August 26, 2023, 10:43:30 am
content: I realise this may be a contentious topic for my first post, but I'm going to give it a go anyway.I'm a hobbyist shopping for a new Schematic/PCB package. I bought and used Eagle for many years, but after a few years away I see they are no more. I'm a little sad as I really enjoyed Eagle and used it to make many PCBs, both professionally produced and home made.So now I'm hunting for a new product to use. A lot of videos on YouTube I've seen are now pushing Altium, but their prices are so far away from anything a hobbyist would or should spend on a piece of software that they're a non-starter. I see that CircuitMaker and CircuitStudio have been abandoned, which rules them out. It's sad to see Altium are still taking online payments for CircuitStudio too.I had a play with KiCad and was surprised at how modern and relatively simple to use it was. I also looked at DipTrace, which seems reasonably easy to use, but the interface looks like something from the 80's, which doesn't fill me with confidence. Their pricing flexibility is great though. They seem to have really picked the right spot for hobbyists. I also like the look of their features for high speed signals, as that's something I want to get into.So are there any serious recommendations for products for hobbyists that have good community support, good parts libraries and reasonable pricing that won't be abandoned a year after purchase?

author: Karel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2023, 11:07:29 am
content: KiCad

author: voltsandjolts
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 26, 2023, 12:10:10 pm
content: KiCad

author: Doctorandus_P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2023, 01:01:34 pm
content: KiCadQuote from: baylf2000 on August 26, 2023, 10:43:30 amKiCad has a very active user forum. 20 to 30 questions a day and answers between a few minutes to hours. It seems rare that a topic can't get solved quickly on the KiCad user forum.https://forum.kicad.info/Quote from: baylf2000 on August 26, 2023, 10:43:30 amCheck!KiCad is also getting noticed by EDA library websites such as PCB Libraries, SnapEDA, Ultra Librarian and more.Quote from: baylf2000 on August 26, 2023, 10:43:30 amCheck!You decide what's reasonableQuote from: baylf2000 on August 26, 2023, 10:43:30 amCheck!KiCad has been growing quite rapidly over the last few years. Lot's of extra functions, old annoyances get removed, libraries and library management gets improved.It sure has it's own set of flaws and limitations. The biggest limitation at the moment is that the project may be growing a bit too fast. I'm guessing that in the near future when KiCad is "mostly feature complete" more emphasis shifts to stability instead of fixing old annoyances and introducing new features. Users helping a bit with the development by finding and reporting bugs is part of the nature of Open Source software. When KiCad V6 was released, (after 3 years of development) this worked quite well, and when a lot more users started using it and reporting bugs, nearly all of them were fixed within a month or two. And now with KiCad V7 (released last February) the going has unfortunately been a bit rougher. Overall it works quite well (and better than V6) but fixing the small annoying things seem to go a bit slower with V7. Bugs do get fixed, and quite fast (over 60 in each monthly point release) but due to the stormy development, they keep coming too. But don't be discouraged, It's mostly small stuff, and when important bugs are found they get a high priority and are usually fixed within hours to a few days.And users are working on KiCad development too. KiCad has a "Plugin and content manager" that has now already over 50 plugins, including several written by (or at least for) PCB manufacturers to set up their rules and/or help with ordernig (Aisler, PCBWay, JLCpcb, NextPCB, Sierra, PCBGoGo,) And although I prefer to work with Gerbers myself, it's also getting more common that PCB manufacturers support uploading KiCad projects for manufacturing directly.And other fun things, such as this link below, which indexes over 19.000 KiCad (related) projects on Github:https://forum.kicad.info/t/kicad-project-explorer/44440I've also seen the growing number of advertisements for altium, I guess they are waking up and slowly starting to see KiCad as a thread to their business.Quote from: baylf2000 on August 26, 2023, 10:43:30 amYes, if there is anything I've learned about that company is that they like money very much.About Diptrace, peaple who use it, seem to like it. I have never used it myself. I started using KiCad about 10 years ago, when it was quite rough, but I saw potential in it and that is now flourishing.You also wrote you already gave KiCad a test drive and you liked it. Are there further concerns why you are doubting to adapt KiCad?

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2023, 01:18:35 pm
content: Definitely Kicad for hobby use. If you gow out of that, skip Altium and go for a 'big boys' package like Orcad (which is also more affordable compared to Altium).

author: woody
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2023, 01:47:52 pm
content: Kicad, What Else?

author: Karel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2023, 03:07:38 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on August 26, 2023, 01:18:35 pmI tried to find the system requirements for Orcad but I can't find it onhttps://www.orcad.com/I suspect it's windows only now...

author: ahbushnell
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2023, 03:53:55 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on August 26, 2023, 01:18:35 pmWhy do you say OrCAD is big boys vs Altium?I use Altium professionally but if I was just doing hobby Kicad.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2023, 05:29:24 pm
content: Quote from: ahbushnell on August 26, 2023, 03:53:55 pmIf you have used Orcad, you'd know... I had to use Altium for a project but told the customer to find someone else to do the layout. I had enough after fixing the schematic. I have a decent PC to run Altium but it is soooo slow and cumbersome to use compared to Orcad. If you look around you'll notice that complex SoC reference designs are all made using Orcad. Altium just doesn't has the performance for really complex boards. And Altium lacks impedance and crosstalk simulation as well.Quote from: Karel on August 26, 2023, 03:07:38 pmLast time I checked the schematic program (Orcad capture) runs on Windows only. The PCB program (Allegro) runs on both Windows and Linux. The Schematic and PCB programs run just fine in a Windows virtual machine as well so no real showstoppers in case you (like me) run Linux as your primary OS. I had to get a separate PC to run Altium though.

author: baylf2000
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: August 26, 2023, 10:18:25 pm
content: Wow, what a beautifully elequent reply. Thank you! I suppose the only issue I can really see right now with KiCad is how it handles high-speed signals, which is something I'm specifically working on right now. Routing DDR3 ram for example. This used to be well outside the capabilities of a hobbyist only a few years ago but is now something we can do. I believe KiCad can assist with differential pairs, but anything more becomes difficult?

author: Doctorandus_P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2023, 11:05:46 pm
content: KiCad has a function for routing differential pairs and for length matching. I experimented with this a few years ago, and the basic functionality is implemented, but it is (or at least was) a bit cumbersome to use. I do not use this function myself though and can't really judge it's quality.On the KiCad website,https://www.kicad.org/made-with-kicad/You can find a link to the Olimexino 64 It is a design made in KiCad, it has DDR3 routing on an Allwinnner A64 and the complete project is downloadable from github, so you can easily use it to do some benchmark test or review how others use KiCad.Also, if you type in "description:ddr3" in:https://devbisme.github.io/kicad_project_explorer/Then it does not find the Olimex designs, but it does find a project with a ZYNQ.https://github.com/julianfl0w/zynqPCBAnd this other project:https://github.com/McflyWZX/BujiUAV2(I only did the search, I did not look into those repositories, but both appear to be KiCad projects).Also, when looking at old KiCad projects, then reading and/or converting them to the recent KiCad version is possible, but it may be cumbersome. Mostly because old projects tend to be damaged (partly due to the way KiCad V5 or earlier worked). From KiCad V6 and newer these problems are a thing of the past.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2023, 11:16:29 pm
content: Quote from: Doctorandus_P on August 26, 2023, 11:05:46 pmThat board has the memory running at only 667MHz (if that isn't the DDR rate so the actual clock is 'only' 333MHz). Routing memories at those rates is relatively easy. Keep in mind that DDR3 is over a decade old already. Try to do a modern day DDR4-3200 design with clocks running at 1600MHz and you'll find Kicad doesn't have the means to automate doing the length & phase matching required. In the end you can do everything manually (using a spreadsheet) but it will take a huge amount of time. Then again, a design like this is not very likely to be taken on at a hobby level.

author: Doctorandus_P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2023, 11:21:23 pm
content: Quote from: baylf2000 on August 26, 2023, 10:18:25 pmKiCad has:PCB Editor / Place / Add Microwave Shapewhich has some standard RF shapes. Other things are also improving in KiCad. It is quite easy to add some graphics to a pad (the pad itself is then the attachment point), and this can be used from designing antenna's or spark gaps.In the "Post V7 thread on the KiCad user forum, there is also an announcement for making any graphic a part of the netlist. Features listed in that thread are not yet in the stable KiCad version, but are expected to be in the next big release, which will be KiCad V8 and is expected in the first few months of 2024.https://forum.kicad.info/t/post-v7-new-features-and-development-news/40144/24

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2023, 11:38:20 pm
content: KiCAD is really a good answer. But the UI has just never clicked for me. With enough time and effort I could get through this, but I have been using Autotrax DEX for a couple of decades now and have that UI burned in. It is cheaper than Eagle was and does many things well. It also has warts and is not done by a development team, but by a single person. Makes the development team dynamics simple, but the guy will eventually lose interest or die, and as many on this forum have found he can be opinionated and hard to communicate with.One thing that might be a plus for you is that it imports Eagle projects well, and has also imported all of the Eagle libraries.

author: baylf2000
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: August 27, 2023, 12:58:00 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on August 26, 2023, 11:16:29 pmThanks for that info. I don't see myself doing anything more difficult that DDR3 for a long while yet, but I guess that's part of my fear of jumping into a something like KiCad. What happens if I do outgrow it? I means starting from scratch with another package.I think that's why I liked the look of DipTrace. Their pricing structure means it's accessible to hobbyists but seems to have all the "professional" features like phase and length matching.

author: Doctorandus_P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2023, 01:11:06 am
content: Even if you outgrow KiCad and need to switch at some time in the future, I think it's not such a big deal. It may take some time to get productive in that other / new to you program, but in the end the difference is mostly in knowing which buttons to press.All the things from knowing how electronics work and how to draw a schematic, to doing footprints placement (that is an important part) are generic knowledge that stays the same, regardless what program you use.Also, with the speed KiCad is growing, those functions may be implemented if you only think youmayneed them in a few years time. But I don't know your needs, and I don't know Diptrace, so I can't compare.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2023, 12:54:33 pm
content: Quote from: baylf2000 on August 27, 2023, 12:58:00 amYes, it means starting from scratch in another package. Count on having to do that several times in your career. And people saying that all PCB packages are alike so knowing one means knowing them all, are dead wrong. At the surface they may look the same but if you go a bit deeper there certainly are differences that require going through a learning curve. Especially when you are doing PCB design professionally for more complicated boards. Every package has a different approach and you'll need to learn & understand the ideas behind that approach.But it could be Kicad grows with you. Not so long ago Kicad switched from having the footprints & symbols in external libraries (which is horrible) to including these into the design file. The same for having a component database. Even for hobby purposes I highly recommend adopting a workflow that uses a component database because it helps a lot to get the right footprints for the parts on your board. Nowadays there is a huge variety of packages and a mistake is easy to make.

author: Solder_Junkie
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2023, 09:45:48 am
content: For those who started out with an etch resist pen and ferric chloride etching at home, Sprint 6 from Abacom is very straightforward to use. It is a program that I have used for many years and find it suits my hobby needs.While most of the packages, including KiCad, take you through starting a project, drawing a circuit, picking parts, then (and only then) do you progress to the PCB layout. Sprint 6 allows you to take a circuit, perhaps from a magazine, place typical parts on the board, then join them up with tracks. Just as easy as using an etch resist pen. You can produce Gerber and drilling files for commercial board production too. It is very straightforward to create your own footprints from data sheets too, so you aren't limited to their library.The main limitations with Sprint 6 are that it doesn't offer castellated pads (through hole pads that are easier to solder), nor does it offer isolated mounting holes, you have to create isolated areas yourself. Also it's not free, but for 49.90 Euros it's not particularly expensive either.https://www.electronic-software-shop.com/lng/en/electronic-software/sprint-layout-60.htmlSJ

author: Doctorandus_P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 05, 2023, 12:05:29 pm
content: Quote from: Solder_Junkie on September 04, 2023, 09:45:48 amI once considered that program. And the main limitation I found (before buying it luckily) is that it does not have schematic entry at all. Attempting to draw a PCB without a schematic and netlist, is sheer madness for anything more complicated then a NE555 blinkinglight. For me that was an instant game stopper.Quote from: Solder_Junkie on September 04, 2023, 09:45:48 amYes, and I see it as an advantage.Quote from: Solder_Junkie on September 04, 2023, 09:45:48 amWith this "circuit", do you mean a schematic, or such a B&W picture of the track layout?In KiCad, you can add images to both the schematic and the PCB editor. You can make a picture of a PCB, and then use **PCB Editor / Place / Add Image** to put it on the PCB (KiCad can scale it, but only X&Y in the same amount). KiCad can also back import Gerber data into a KiCad PCB and this is also a neat reverse-engineering aid.Working in KiCad without a schematic and the netlist is very cumbersome. If I have a reverse-engineering project, I usually build up both the schematic and the PCB simultaneously. You see a few connections on the PCB, create parts and wires in the schematic, put them on the PCB, and then draw the copper tracks. This is more work. But you end up with a schematic too, but it makes the process also much more reliable. When you are building the schematic, you can easily analyze it too, and a faulty connection is easily spotted. KiCad also has a"Wire It"plugin which can create the netlist on the PCB itself, but because I value the schematic itself, I have not used it, except for a very short test.If you just draw tracks on a PCB, it is just far to easy to make mistakes. I can see the merit of the"Wire It"plugin in KiCad, but I would not want to (re) create a PCB without drawing the schematic too.

author: asmi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 05, 2023, 01:29:33 pm
content: Quote from: Doctorandus_P on September 05, 2023, 12:05:29 pmYeah, I can't even imagine doing any of my projects without schematics. For anything but the very simplest breakout boards this is going to be a total disaster.

author: Georgy.Moshkin
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 05, 2023, 01:51:28 pm
content: IMO freeware version of Diptrace is a very nice pcb router, even with limitations of free version.

author: 16bitanalogue
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2023, 12:14:55 am
content: Has everyone jumped off the Eagle bandwagon?

author: Karel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2023, 06:20:06 am
content: A lot of Eagle users aren't happy.https://forums.autodesk.com/t5/eagle-forum/eagle-dying-on-june-7-2026/td-p/12017987

author: Ranayna
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2023, 07:34:40 am
content: Quote from: Georgy.Moshkin on September 05, 2023, 01:51:28 pmI second this. For some reason DipTrace was very intuitive for me, even as a total noob i was able to do a simple PCB, and the only thing i needed to look up in the documentation was the gerber export.

author: Uky
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2023, 06:59:23 pm
content: As an OrCAD/Allegro user, the only free PCB tool I can ever think of that I could consider using apart from the Cadence tool is KiCAD. As a matter of fact, some of my customers have these two system side by side. One Cadence seat for complex designs and a seats of KiCAD for less complex tasks. KiCAD is getting better with every new release. Available for many platforms and I have seen several professional products designed with KiCAD over the past few years.IMHO: Don't look any further.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2023, 10:13:53 pm
content: Yes, KiCad is pretty much the de facto answer to this at the moment.Eagle was another option if you could live with the limitations of the free version, or could shell out the cash for a full license, but now it's basically dead, so look elsewhere.There sure are other options, such as DipTrace. But I'm not sure at this point they really have anything significant to offer compared to KiCad, and one important point is that with KiCad, you'll have a much easier time sharing your designs with others. It also runs on all major OSs.

author: aeberbach
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2023, 09:52:25 pm
content: I had to install Altium yesterday to look at Einsy Rambo 3D printer controller schematics/board. It issurprisinglybulky and slow to do anything much on a decent i7/32GB RAM PC. It doesn't look bad but even if it was free, KiCad is my choice, I don't need the extra capabilities Altium might offer.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2023, 11:05:57 pm
content: Quote from: aeberbach on September 19, 2023, 09:52:25 pmIf you only need to occasionally view Altium files, rather than install anything, you can use their online viewer:https://www.altium.com/viewer/I'm not a huge fan of online tools, but in this case it's certainly an option for viewing purposes.

author: markietas
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: October 11, 2023, 06:03:29 am
content: Absolutely, I don't know how it's even a contest at this point. KiCad trades blows with multi thousand dollar paid packages like Altium and is constantly improving, and tons of people use it which makes finding tutorials and solutions easy.

author: markietas
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: October 11, 2023, 06:05:21 am
content: Quote from: karpouzi9 on September 18, 2023, 07:20:30 amAbsolutely, I don't know how it's even a contest at this point. KiCad trades blows with multi thousand dollar paid packages like Altium and is constantly improving, and tons of people use it which makes finding tutorials and solutions easy.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2023, 09:51:21 pm
content: Quote from: markietas on October 11, 2023, 06:05:21 amWell, while that is true, I don't think asking for alternatives is a bad idea in general. Even if open-source, more options is always better.There are certainly open-source alternatives to the Linux kernel, btw.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2023, 10:47:47 pm
content: Quote from: asmi on September 05, 2023, 01:29:33 pmI never start from a schematic - it commits connections too early in the process ( e.g. deciding which I/O pins to use etc.).Idohave netlist, but this is created within the PCB software as I go along. I use PCAD2006, which can create netlists when you do rubberband connections between pads, and can also create them from copper traces, pads and component patterns you've previously placed.This is very handy for things like LED matrices, where you can just place 1 LED, do a "copy matrix" to replicate them in X/Y, draw one line connecting a row, copy that, add vias and column lines, and then tell it to create nets from everything that's physically touching.I'm not sure how common this functionality is in other packages but I couldn't imagine doing some of the stuff I regularly do without it.

author: Smokey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2023, 11:02:41 pm
content: Quote from: karpouzi9 on September 18, 2023, 07:20:30 amFreeBSD ?

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2023, 11:14:38 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on October 12, 2023, 09:51:21 pmFully seconded; and I use Tux the Linux Penguin as a mascot.In particular, I personally amveryhappy thatFreeBSDandOpenBSDexist and are alive. I would not want to live in a world where Linux was the only open source fully-featured OS kernel, at all. (I also would not want to live in a world where all Linux distributions used the same configuration, even though that would make software distribution much easier for some. My reasoning for these is solid, for both end user and even proprietary development, even though some disagree; so let's leave that flamewar for a separate thread, and not derail this one.)I am now slowly shifting to KiCAD 7, but have done most of my designs inEasyEDAonline, because of how easy it makes everything (the huge component library with official footprints from the component vendor, LCSC, and board and board assembly vendor JLCPCB), and especially becauseall my designs are in Public Domain, and EasyEDA can directly publish OSHW projects at oshwlab.com. Of course, I am only a hobbyist with no "real" design experience.(Some ofmy projectsare so old they date back to when EasyEDA published projects on the same site. In the transfer, the images of the schematic and board didn't transfer properly, so I should go through them and fix. When opened in EasyEDA, the projects are in their correct state, however; no information has been lost, only the published page lacks the proper project image description.)Right now, I'd really love to design aTeensy 4.1 derivative, with a 50mm×50mm/2"×2" square board having 1.27mm pitch single row of pins on the outer edge except at corners, double-sided load, on a JLCPCB-assembled 6-layer board. JLCPCB does have a small number of suitable NXP i.MX RT1062 processors in 10x10mm BGA-196 package available for assembly, with really cheap 6-layer manufacturing options, but bugger me if I can route such a board myself. For the assembly, soldering the BGA, and the tiny passives in sub-0603 packages, would suffice; the rest I could handle. (PJRC does sell the pre-programmed bootloader IC, which would make it easily programmed in Teensyduino, or even bare metal, and that has to be soldered separately anyway.)Idea would be to either route a hole for the board in any carrier, or use SIL 1.27mm pitch SMT headers (like Harwin M50-3142045R) that have pads in alternating sides, centered on each edge, leaving corners free for perhaps M2.5 mounting holes or (3D-printed) slotted corner stands/holders.

author: Joel_l
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2023, 01:09:15 am
content: I'm late to this game but here are my thoughts.At work I use Cadence products ( Allegro )For my personal use I have,Circuit Studio - I have pretty much abandoned this and will never give Altium another penny.Diptrace - Non commercial license are reasonable and I like the program. Some say it has an "old" feel. I actually like this. There is also a free version.Kicad - This has gotten so much better over the years and I actually like it. Years ago I was not a fan, but now I am and have donated to the cause.The original version of PCB - kind of liked it, would design circuits while doing the layout. This was the first layout tool I used.Before that, mylar sheets and tape.

author: asmi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2023, 04:32:10 am
content: Quote from: Joel_l on October 13, 2023, 01:09:15 amJust in case you don't know - Diptrace also has an "extended non-commercial" license with higher limits, which is also free. If you contact them and ask for that, they will give it to you. At least that's the way it was some years ago when I was using it.

author: Joel_l
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2023, 12:37:23 am
content: They do have a limited free version, I have the extended non-profit license, it's not free, at least not any more.

author: Doctorandus_P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2023, 12:35:25 pm
content: All KiCad versions are free and without artificial limits such as PCB size or pin count. You don't even have to mess with serial numbers or licensing files during installation.

author: analityk
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2023, 11:29:00 pm
content: EasyEDA Pro - just not standard online, PC locally installed Pro version. It is really good and more than enough for hobbyist.OrCad in my opinion is far more pro and also cost a lot.Currently I working with Altium and it is hard to switch from OrCad. Class view ordering and philosophy is precious in OrCad. Also differentiate between track, part of track, line, part of line and net is gold. There are possible to place text on different layers and show/hide it for example you can left visible only references of components and any other text left invisible, for example board name and other pictures. Next nice behaviour is left visible only components silk, pads, vias and refdes, so correct placing of refdes are easy. Many other nice stuff is hide in OrCad. Best EDA but it is a bit hard to learnt.

author: remyh
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: December 10, 2023, 09:49:50 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on August 26, 2023, 01:18:35 pmI had Altium for 3 years, for an acceptable (discount) price... But to renew or buy it would have been too much for the hobby... I really regret Altium doesn't have a reasonable hobbyist solution, would be amazing. Last week I decided to check out Orcad (X/23.1), it has a more steep learning path, but feels very powerful. I could buy the standard with two years of service (and after that perpetual) for 1200 euro. It is a special hobbyist price, not mentioned on the Orcad website as far as I know.