Partner needed - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / projects

author: applebeam
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: January 14, 2016, 02:28:42 pm
content: Hi guys,I am not technical so need someone who would like to get involved with a great little project.I would like you to design and build a small electrical device (explained later) which can be presented as a prototype to various people I know with mid to large scale manufacturing and marketing experience.You would retain 10% share of the business for your involvement.I will provide you with full details of the initial design proposal and do all the 'leg work' in building the business. All you would need to do it take the idea and build it.If you think you have a good level of engineering for small gadgets, have a skill in simplifying a product, enjoy improving products etc .. then read on.In order to give you an sense of the project (without giving away my idea) I will explain the type of thing I need in a nutshell.Note: The actual device will have two unique additions (not mentioned below) which make it unique and unlike anything else on the market.We'll be building a simple analog switch using something like a Force-sensing resistor to enable someone to switch on/off a set of small LED lights (or similar). The device would be put in someone's trainers and the lights will be on the outside of the trainers. This has been done lots before but as I said, I have a unique twist on this idea.Important notes;- I am based in Eastbourne so best it you are no further North than London- You will need to sign an NDA before full idea explained- I need someone who can finish a project and understands that design/build simplicity is key- You will have an interest in keeping costs down. For example, perhaps a long FSA can be cut into shorter strips to reduce cost. The price of the final product is essential in determining it's viability as a business.Let me know if interested guys! We'll chat and I will hopefully find the right person (or persons) to move forward with.

author: Pack34
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2016, 02:31:07 pm
content: You want to get someone to do all the work for a 10% stake?

author: fivefish
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2016, 02:37:36 pm
content: LOL

author: cowana
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2016, 02:38:08 pm
content: Quote from: applebeam on January 14, 2016, 02:28:42 pmThis sounds like a fairly sophisticated design - most likely a custom pressure pad, and impressively small integration to fit inside a trainer.From a functional perspective, the circuitry is most likely trivial. The hard part is finding someone with enough experience of 'the other bits'. For the amount of time and design effort required for something like this, you will be very unlikely to find someone willing to work for a (very small) 10% share in a company that is currently worthless, in a very crowded market.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2016, 02:46:46 pm
content: Quote from: applebeam on January 14, 2016, 02:28:42 pmLet me guess. You are an industrial designer, probably a student.in any case, consider the reception you would get if you presented that in "Dragon's Den".Hint:ideasare 10-a-penny;implementationsaren't.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2016, 04:44:48 pm
content: Quote from: DiligentMinds.com on January 14, 2016, 04:37:17 pmSame here. Ideas are a dime a dozen! If there is no money for development then there is no money for any serious marketing so the project is doomed before it started!

author: babysitter
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2016, 04:49:41 pm
content: Haha, every electronics forum gets a visit from a guy exactly like you. Outcome: None at all.Good luck with your Idea. I squashed yesterdays three of them. Which is a normal bi-weekly output rate at my workplace, but we only go for the excellent ones, maybe three in a year.

author: rx8pilot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2016, 05:20:02 pm
content: I don't sign NDA's.The person you need probably won't either. An offer like this will attract someone that is hoping to learn something new. The resulting learning curve will risk the entire effort.10% is hilarious for spec work on a startup. I have started and sold a number of businesses, but have started and bombed more. What you are asking is for someone to work an unknown amount for NOTHING and if everything is absolutely perfect including many things that are not in their control, they may get 10%.Good luck.Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using Tapatalk

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2016, 05:39:49 pm
content: here in our ghetto country, 10% is what someone get by doing nothing, just other people use his company account for doing business. the person who did the whole work get 90%. the OP business model is entirely reversed, what a modern world..

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2016, 05:56:58 pm
content: Quote from: Mechatrommer on January 14, 2016, 05:39:49 pmIt's also depends who is asking. For Steve Jobs I would do it for 7%.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2016, 06:01:27 pm
content: Quote from: zapta on January 14, 2016, 05:56:58 pmI hope not because you'd be visited by a zombie!

author: mrpackethead
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2016, 06:02:13 pm
content: What an awfully negative bunch.I'm not north of London, but i don't think you've thought about the South Boundary.Do you have the required $20-30,000 Quid to protect this "invention" with a Patent. If in fact it is patentable.

author: Howardlong
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2016, 06:13:04 pm
content: My thoughts on NDAs between small businesses and individuals are that they're usually not worth the paper they're written on, and bring in an unnecessary element of distrust at a very early stage.At the end of the day, the average small business or individual does not have the financial clout to afford to take up a legal IP case, nor would they gain financially from taking legal action anyway from another small business or individual. Sure it's a risk, but overall in the long run it's better to engage in cultivating mutual trust, pressing the flesh, and seeing the whites of your business partners' eyes than it is to mess about with a pre-nup. If something doesn't feel right in any relationship, trust your instincts and go elsewhere.The same applies to patents too. For one man bands and small businesses, the cost of global patent can hit 6 figures before you've lifted the soldering iron or typed a line of code. Say someone on the other side of the planet pinches your idea, how much is it going to cost you to pursue it anyway? Do you honestly think that you have the financial resources to be successful in making a claim, and in that event be able to make good your losses?

author: Tomorokoshi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2016, 06:46:33 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on January 14, 2016, 06:01:27 pmYeah, but that would look totally rad and awesome on a resume!WORK EXPERIENCE- Developed new electronic appliance for Zombie Steve Jobs. Electronic design, software design, and lots of running around.

author: Seekonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2016, 06:47:21 pm
content: Confused, isn't this how Steve Jobs started. Getting someone else to do the actual engineering.The majority of OP's here are trying to get someone to do their engineering. And they are quire successful at it!

author: 8086
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2016, 06:53:11 pm
content: Wants a 'partner' to basically create the entire product......for 10% stake in unknown value business......and sign an NDA because the idea is obviously so great that everyone will immediately steal it...Sounds like a typical clueless 'ideas man'...looking for a sucker(no offence to OP, really. I suspect they're just over excited and haven't engaged brain yet.)Hint to OP, pay an engineer to design your product.

author: rx8pilot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2016, 07:11:48 pm
content: Quote from: Howardlong on January 14, 2016, 06:13:04 pm+1I avoid deals with NDA's for a couple of reasons:1. (As you said) They are nearly worthless and bring distrust to a new relationship.2. I make a living on my creative ideas - not the parts on the circuit board. I cannot accept creative hand-cuffs that could prevent me from implementing a new idea. NDA's are general in nature and some companies would be inclined to protect any and all information that is a derivative of the original idea or created from its pursuit. Even if the NDA cannot be enforced, the effort to enforce it can be crushing. I cannot have someone threaten me with legal action from the beginning.I am the type of engineer that makes paper napkin ideas a reality and then moves on. My skills are wide and relatively shallow so I can get a reasonable product to market quickly. I never hoped to be the best of any discipline, but rather pretty good at many. This includes practical fabrication as well from CNC machining to molding to PCB's and software. This is what a startup needs, but the OP could not possibly make this interesting to pursue. In the end, most commercial products that I design need specialists to polish, test, and finalize but that is usually after a successful pilot program has proven the business viability.I now own 100% of what I design. I was a freelancer at one time and worked on spec. I watched my employers rake in many $millions and I ended up with pennies. This is my own fault, but I learned how valuable my contribution is. The people that hired me didn't really know what they needed or how to get there. I figured out all the secrets and they are essentially a marketing company. Marketing definitely has value, but not 90%+ of the value.

author: AndyC_772
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2016, 07:29:42 pm
content: To the OP: I'm guessing you're not experienced in product design, so here's a bit of a clue as to what we're all thinking and why.Ideas alone are worthless. Seriously. This is one of the hardest lessons to learn, it comes as a major surprise to a lot of people, and usually provokes a response along the lines of "surely not!" - but it's absolutely true.Offering just 10% equity in your business says several things:- that you can't afford to simply hire an engineer at a fair market rate, otherwise why wouldn't you?- that the total, accumulated value of all the time, effort, expertise that the engineer is expected to invest, will be no more than 10% of the total value that you and other participants will invest. Even though the engineer will probably be bringing the majority of the technical expertise, and developing most of the value in any eventual IP that comes out of the project,nine timesas much value is still going to be generated by other people. You'll need to be able to explain where all this value comes from, in a way which is exceptionally clear, detailed, and justified.- the eventual value of your business will be such that 10% of it is likely to end up being worth enough to cover the engineer's time, at a fair market rate, times some reasonable multiplier to account for the risk involved. Otherwise the opportunity just isn't worth it.Let's make up some figures. Suppose the design required is fairly simple, that your business wants to own the resulting IP, and that it amounts to no more than a few weeks' work for an engineer. You might, if you're very lucky and don't require anything in terms of ongoing support, need R&D work amounting to about £10k worth.That immediately values your business at £100k.Then suppose that this £100k valuation is justified by the company's ability to earn that amount in profits within 3 years, and that it does so by selling its product at a 20% margin. If you can make £33k/yr on 20%, then you need to turn over about £165k p.a. averaged over that period.Feel free to substitute your own projections, of course, but they need to be realistic.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2016, 08:02:12 pm
content: A good test for an idea is to get some real investors to back it. If you can sell an idea to investors you may be able to sell it to customers. Once the investors are onboard it is time to find a engineer who can design the product using the investor's money.

author: hamdi.tn
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2016, 10:43:50 pm
content: Quote from: Mechatrommer on January 14, 2016, 05:39:49 pmam not sure about that ... i know so many business where 10% is for the one who do almost everything.am not saying it's fair, am saying it's how many real world company work

author: hamdi.tn
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2016, 10:52:18 pm
content: Quote from: DiligentMinds.com on January 14, 2016, 04:37:17 pmsorry but ppl still invent cause they don't think like that, kickstarter is full of crap but full of awesome ideas that had the courage to say it maybe thought by at least thousand people who thought it was not viable, but they did it.example of product i think crap :changing color led lighting ... crapwireless lighting .. crapfitness wearable stuff ... crapevery thing apple made ... crapand am sure 1e5 think like me but those product are on the market and they are successful product

author: Seekonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2016, 10:54:59 pm
content: Once upon a time I worked for a small custom electronics company. I sat across the table from a lot of these people. If you design it and build it we will buy a lot of these from you. They couldn't even come up with the money for the first 100. A free engineer is the least of your problems.

author: hamdi.tn
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2016, 11:00:57 pm
content: to the OP what you asking for is impossible to accept by any thinking person ( if not a recently graduated student that will learn on the way), if you have such awesome idea ask investor for money as ppl here suggested, capital risk company will hep you with the money (if they think you really have an idea) and recrute some ppl. most capital risk company help you defining your idea as well, so you will have to explain it for someone at some point and by that you can really be sure that your idea is great. cause we all had that idea at which we said "eureka" and it's just unrealistic.asking for NDA from someone you consider PARTNER is not the way to start at all. and am sure your idea how great it is, will be copied by countless company around the world ... and an other countless company in china

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 14, 2016, 11:03:49 pm
content: Quote from: DiligentMinds.com on January 14, 2016, 04:37:17 pmDitto.QuoteOr already done in some way which the person simply doesn't have the skill enough to Google.I've lost count of the number of times I've been approached by people with some great idea they want me to build for them. Almost always I'm able to show that:a) It's already been doneorb) Is not viable because of *insert problem here* that they didn't think of.

author: hamdi.tn
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2016, 11:14:33 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on January 14, 2016, 11:03:49 pmTrue most of time, wrong sometime. am sure most innovation (not invention) are done in a context where everyone think that's the most that can be done.Most engineers around me think about something to innovate most of time, and all the time they are within (a) and (b) as you said, this can change one day.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2016, 11:18:41 pm
content: Actually sometimes people do have good a idea but lack the skills to sell and/or money to invest. I'm tempted to take on such a project if I have some quiet time later this year and see where it goes. I'll be keeping all the production data & source code to myself ofcourse!

author: timb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2016, 11:19:34 pm
content: If you're looking for a life partner you might want to check out Match.com.

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2016, 01:02:58 am
content: QuoteThis is why 10% is enormous. But unless the other parts all get there, 10% of nothing is worthless.I wish I had designed the Fitbit for 1%.If you think the guys that designed the Fitbit are 80-90% responsible for its success, lolz. Marketing and distribution sells the Fitbit. Production expertise helps to make it profitable. And money. A pretty good bit of money.Same goes for Apple. Put a thousand of the best design engineers together, you will have a lot of cool stuff but not two dimes to rub together. Anyone ever hear of this guy named Tesla?

author: Howardlong
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2016, 01:04:00 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on January 14, 2016, 11:18:41 pmI can recommend it. It's a serious learning curve, particularly in volume manufacturing if you've never done it before (I hadn't), full of highs and lows, but managing, designing and developing the entire project yourself as well as owning all the know-how can't be beat. Just be prepared to get your hands dirty: nothing like honing your soldering skills by hand-making a few hundred boards for you waiting customers while you wait for your contract manufacturer to deliver a few weeks later.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 15, 2016, 01:11:24 am
content: Quote from: hamdi.tn on January 14, 2016, 11:14:33 pmI'm simply pointing out my personal experience in people who have approached me.And because I've had an electronics website in some for or another since the mid 90's that was easily searchable, I've gotten a lot of people approach me. Before that it was old school snail mailRarely has a project been novel enough for me to consider it a decent idea worthy of consideration to work on, or worthy of anyone else working on that I'd direct them to someone else I know.I think there must be something about the ideas from such people who have to randomly approach people on the internet, or forums etc for people to help them.But yes, doesn't mean it's always the case.These days they all end up on Indiegogo

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2016, 01:17:29 am
content: You might be surprised how much money a dumb idea can make if someone really wants to make it happen. Smart guys thought a prebuilt computer was a dumb idea."Sure I could do that. But who's gonna write all the software to make it do anything? Anyone that can do that is going to build their own computer that is better than that, anyway."Smart marketing and good timing will always make more money than intelligent engineering.Why Jobs was great? He was dumb enough to believe in an idea so strongly he could convince other people it was a good idea. This is how great things are accomplished. Smart people can't do this.So, first off, the OP doesn't keep 90%. If he can't pay an engineer, he will have to hand out a lot more of his company to get anything done. 10% for making a prototype of a stress sensor and a few LEDs to fit in a shoe? If I was in the UK, I'd at least bite.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 15, 2016, 01:33:34 am
content: Quote from: KL27x on January 15, 2016, 01:17:29 amBut to make it work, you have to convince people to buy that dumb idea.QuoteThe paying public is still the ultimate arbiter.Sure, even the pet rock sold squillions, but it actually offered something people wanted in some way. e.g. something cute that had an emotional attachment, and didn't need maintenanceNot all dumb ideas are marketable. Although I'm sure the marketing people would say otherwise.

author: rx8pilot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2016, 01:34:46 am
content: Quote from: timb on January 14, 2016, 11:19:34 pmI met my wife on match.com, it actually works!

author: jwm_
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2016, 01:34:55 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on January 14, 2016, 11:03:49 pmI feel like there is a corollary of "scheiner's law of cryptography" here, that goes "Anyone, from the most clueless amateur to the best cryptographer, can create an algorithm that he himself can't break."Except it would go something like"Any idea, from the most brilliant to the utterly inane can be insufficiently researched so as to appear novel."Which I dub "Meacham's law of ideation" seeing as how I have insufficiently researched it to find out it has been stated before more eloquently.John

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2016, 01:37:06 am
content: QuoteNo I don't. I wouldn't. The OP would.This is why the guy dumb/optimistic/energetic/naive enough to actually believe this LED shoe is the next big thing and to tote it around like it's gold, because he actually believes it, is the guy that deserves the big money if it takes off! All I have to do is stuff a sensor and some LEDs in a shoe with a uC and a battery and then sit back on the couch. I'd at least hear it out, if I was local.Guys who can do technical things are a dime a dozen. Guys that can believe in long term large scale things are the ones that make stuff happen. The potential success of an idea can often be proportional to how strongly one guy believes in it, more than how technically good or useful it is.

author: rx8pilot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2016, 01:46:32 am
content: I design, engineer, build, and test ALL of my dumb ideas so that I can fail in private.When I get lucky and have a hit, there is no one to blame but myself.

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2016, 01:48:54 am
content: That's the thing, is WE as engineers think our stuff is "fail" due to technical/utility reasons, but some of your inventions could be profitable in the right hands/minds. Most of us couldn't have a hit if it hit us over the head.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2016, 02:53:15 am
content: Quote from: zapta on January 14, 2016, 05:56:58 pmit also depend on who is asked for... for enthusiast postgraduates who want to build reputation in resume... 0% is fine as long as they still have their parent to feed them... but i believe majority in this community are able to do design and build to production, the only thing we usually lacking is money, marketing and sales department. valuing engineering and technical department as 10% is not nice for us..ymmv.Quote from: Seekonk on January 14, 2016, 06:47:21 pmi dont think wozniak only got 10%Quote from: rx8pilot on January 15, 2016, 01:34:46 amit wont work if you promised her 10%... imho.

author: Muttley Snickers
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 15, 2016, 03:13:38 am
content: I've just stolen the OP's idea and modified it for my own personal needs, now I will be able to see what type of snake is about to strike my leg whilst out and about on the farm in the dark. Patent not bloody likely but that doesn't mean you can steal my idea either, waterproof as well by the way.....Perhaps I should start a Shit Kicker campaign just like everybody else......https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shit_kicker

author: rx8pilot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2016, 03:26:15 am
content: Quote from: Mechatrommer on January 15, 2016, 02:53:15 amI met my wife on match.com, it actually works! it wont work if you promised her 10%... imho.She promised me 10%. I took the deal.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2016, 05:31:58 am
content: sure you will satisfy with that, but also surely you will dont know what you dont know

author: bxh
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2016, 06:12:08 am
content: I'd actually consider doing this. NDA aside, the project might only require a very short time for an experienced hand..

author: Richard Head
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2016, 06:50:33 am
content: NDA aside, the project might only require a very short time for an experienced hand..In 25 years I've never had one of those projects!

author: MrSlack
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2016, 11:24:41 am
content: I get one of these sorts of offers once a month in the software sector. In an entire decade and a half of software experience, they've all been shitty ideas that I've walked away from instantly.Typically it's either:Great startup, excellent culture, 20% stake, next gen web 2.0 project, node.js, NODE.JS and more effing NODE.JS. Turns out it's another mobile only social network for transexual guinea pig adoption or something vomited out of the arse of a fresh MBA loaded with starbucks and lies.-or-Important company, no we won't tell you who it is, industry leading salary, must sign NDA. Finally get kicked through, find out it's a startup again, doing something borderline illegal like surveillance or touting, is entirely stake based i.e. no retention salary and the NDA is just so you don't tell the investors who have already bought the idea how shit it is.Walk away.

author: applebeam
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: January 15, 2016, 11:37:55 am
content: Wow I didn't expect anywhere near this many responses!I think anyone seriously interested should send me a private message please.I agree that ideas are easy and implementation is hard. But there is something harder than both, that is putting your own money into something. 10% is the amount offered because you will probably work for a month and spend no money. I will be working for at least 2 years pushing the product and will be investing my hard earned money. I am not a student. The guy who liked my idea (who I'm friendly with) has made millions from similar items so there's a good start. If you think 10% isn't enough then I respect that.Thank you.

author: applebeam
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: January 15, 2016, 11:47:10 am
content: Quote from: mrpackethead on January 14, 2016, 06:02:13 pmYes if needed. The whole issue is that without a prototype there's no way of testing the concept. That is your risk because it may be a dead suck. I don't know. That is why I said "partner" in the subject.You're right, a very negative bunch on here. I started an internet company 4 years ago and offered the designer 10%, I pushed the businesses very hard and it ended up paying him way more than his original fee! I did the same with another businesses 10 years ago. The point is that it can work if both parties know what they're roles are. My 90% would be diluted heavily when bringing on others but your 10% would remainuntouched.I must admit, I originally thought the gadgit would be easy to make. My mistake. In light of that I would consider re-thinking the 10%. I don't think the reception is positive on here so I will check my private messages only for anyone interested.I know you guys get lots of these offers. Nothing is guaranteed. It could be a waste of your time. Don't get involved unless you want a nice project and won't feel short changed. I appreciate you are all skilled and your time is worth something.Thanks

author: applebeam
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: January 15, 2016, 11:48:38 am
content: Quote from: 8086 on January 14, 2016, 06:53:11 pmNice. Thank you.

author: MrSlack
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2016, 11:55:48 am
content: Your own money will be wasted.I think people are worried about the probability of a return. 90% of startups fail and there's no insulation of their time investment if you want to sell a stake to someone. I've worked for startups for stakes since about 2003 and have rather first hand experience of this. I've made a shit load of cash out of this using ramp and bail tactics but that's a rarity and most people get shafted. Fortunately I landed a keep about 5 years ago and sold my stake last year for a ton and took a salaried position instead.Start up a Limited Company yourself (£150ish), find a VC, throw a pitch at them, get funding and work through that Limited facade for insulation. Pay yourself a salary. Use that cash to hire engineers on contract rather than self-fund and promise a stake.If you don't do this you will be shafted. I lost £80k working like you are going to and that stings.

author: timb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2016, 12:18:16 pm
content: Quote from: applebeam on January 15, 2016, 11:37:55 amIf you can afford to pour your own hard earned money into this idea then why can't you afford to pay an engineer to design the prototype? If it's as simple as you say it shouldn't cost that much.If you won't fork over $1000~ to have someone build it, then you clearly aren't motivated to make this actually work.

author: MT
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 17, 2016, 01:01:56 am
content: Quote from: applebeam on January 15, 2016, 11:47:10 amWhen people start to talk about 10 years i get suspicious! I wonder why so not 9,5 or 11 years why always even numbers?Real partners always share dead sucks, a con artists or scammers always leave the so called partner to stay behind andpay for the dead suck!

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 17, 2016, 08:52:46 am
content: Quote from: applebeam on January 15, 2016, 11:37:55 amI've started lots of businesses, bought businesses, invested in businesses, been invested in by angels and VC's and private equity and so on.In the course of business I've often been solicited by people looking for sponsorship - race car drivers, YouTubers, people that run events, etc. There are two kinds of pitches. One is "give us a bunch of money/freebies and you will make tons of money because so many people love me/my event/my channel. The other pitch is well thought out with numbers and details.Your pitch is very much the former. You say the person will not spend money for a month or two. That's not true and shows right from the start that you are not valuing their time or contribution. You see the person who is, ironically, creating *all* the value as only worth 10%. You want 90% for your expected future contribution. You need to polish up your pitch and move it from amateur to professional.You are asking someone to invest thousands (or tens of thousands of pounds) in your business. You already value time and work because you've stated you will be working hard for years to make the company successful, and for that you want 90%. So you need to demonstrate why your company is worth an amount such that 10% ownership is significantly more valuable than the cash you would otherwise need to pay for engineering services. It has to be significantly more valuable as you are asking your engineer and investor to take a risk, so he is going to be looking for a similar ROI to a VC - 10 times their investment in 5 years. So if the engineering is $10k worth of work, then your engineer is going to be looking for $100k within 5 years, meaning you need to demonstrate your company is worth $1MM today.What are the company's assets (cash, equipment, receivables, IP, etc)?What are your sales projections and based on what market research?And if you are not a student and you really believe in your idea, why are you offering equity to your engineer instead of cash? If you are offering equity because you don't have cash, then why not? Why hasn't someone else invested in your business purely as an idea? You are asking a non-qualified investor to invest in your business so why wouldn't you approach a qualified investor? If they would not invest in your business then why would an engineer invest? What proportion of cash are you putting into your engineers pocket in addition to the 10% equity stake offered?It's all a very strange way to approach going into business. So strange that it really isn't done that way. Why not sell your car or take a second mortgage on your home to pay your engineer? Seeking investment from your engineer is sort of like seeking marketing services from your banker or lawn care services from your dentist... it's a bit strange and very suspicious. Surely if you believe the engineer is getting a great deal for 10% equity, you would MUCH rather raise the necessary cash and keep that 10% of equity? I mean, why wouldn't you do that?

author: mrpackethead
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 17, 2016, 09:32:09 am
content: And on the other hand. This guy could be onto the next big thing. And you guys have just written off, and you'll never know what you might have written of, becuase his approach was a little non standard.

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 17, 2016, 09:46:26 am
content: Quote from: mrpackethead on January 17, 2016, 09:32:09 amNo chance, you'll need to know the trade to figure out new things. Just hoping you are right instead of knowing is not a good investment.I would not subcontract Jules Verne to build a spaceship no more than Asimov to build a robot.Imagination is one thing, you are free to run with it anywhere you want. Engineering, well, not so much. You are not only bound by the laws of physics, but by the engineering constrans that makes things work.Engineering is applying Science in a practical way.Case in point the UBeam thing. I'm just a thinker and innovator, throw me more money and I'll prove it, meh.

author: MrSlack
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 17, 2016, 11:48:46 am
content: This. Shit's hard. Many many software startups I've seen total themselves because they have no idea of whether or not you can actually build what has been sold or even afford to build what you've sold.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 17, 2016, 12:55:27 pm
content: Quote from: mrpackethead on January 17, 2016, 09:32:09 amFollowing this reasoning you will be statistically better off by buying a lottery ticket!

author: fcb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 17, 2016, 06:16:43 pm
content: Applebeam. Yes, people on this forum are going to be negative - mainly because we are veterans of the electronics industry and most of us have heard similar pitches (and indeed many of us have run with them in our early days).The problem you are going have is chicken & egg: No one is going to sign an NDA unless they understand the credibility of the concept and the people behind it, this will go for the Engineer as well as the VC/investor. As for putting a limit on the latitude on the people you are prepared to work with - faintly ridiculous, you would be excluding some of the best product design companies in the UK, if not the world.So how do you go forward???...1. Google product designers, sub-contract electronic engineers, etc..2. Make an appointment to see a couple of them.3. Get their opinion on the feasibility of the product and a quick ball-park quote to run up a prototype.4. Raise the money to get a prototype made (ask FFF - family, friends and fools).5. Show your potential investors AND LISTEN TO THEM.And BTW I run a small company that does exactly what you want - we don't do free and we are busy for the rest of 2016.

author: rx8pilot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 17, 2016, 07:55:55 pm
content: Quote from: mrpackethead on January 17, 2016, 09:32:09 amIf I followed everyone else's dreams, I would be dismissing my own. This may or may not be the next big thing, but statistically, it is a VERY long shot. Let's say it is the next big thing, how do I know that I will ever see any value? What is 10% even? Do I have access to the books and able to audit the value? Am I part of the negotiations to sell the business? At 10% ownership, I doubt it.Now, I am left with someone that I don't know having total control over the financial outcome of this (likely) dubious effort. Like others here, I have dealt with all types of business people and the thing I learned is that you only trust those that have earned your trust. Blind trust is not how you get things done. With that said, the initial pitch is not worth any consideration since it requires trust as the first step followed by a totally unknown and proportionally small percentage.I am not even close to being gods gift to engineering, but I can (and do) make a good living with only 10% of my ideas actually getting any business traction. This is similar to what VC's expect - 10% of their investments make 100% of their returns. 90% fail completely as a total loss. With that as my business model, I am in a great spot. This offer is required to be 100% successful with a single idea. Just that on it's own is enough to move on. The OP may have great intentions, but I have no motivation to bother when I can do my own thing and have ZERO worry about anyone else that can sour the deal.Now, if a savvy startup group came in and offered a roughed-in contract with a signing bonus and guaranteed R&D budget - plus 10% - I would at least listen. That would show that they have taken the time to build a plan/team/projections and have already taken real risk. Subtract all that and I want a starting offer of 50% just to get me to the table. I already know how to prosecute a variety of businesses from concept to sale - done it. I already know how to design, engineer, and manufacture a wide variety of products. I have done marketing, trade-shows, press releases, web-site,web store, etc. With all that on the table, this is still an uphill battle.If the OP is looking for less experience, then the uphill battle starts to look like a vertical, jagged cliff, 3000ft high. For 10%, I would expect someone to step forward that has (maybe) one piece of a complex skill set needed to get from a napkin drawing to a store shelf. To get the whole project done you either need a team or you need one very widely skilled and experienced individual. Widely skilled and experienced individuals don't need this kind of offer. Their experience and skills offer much more and better opportunity.The OP writes about how negative this bunch is......don't confuse negative people with realistic people. Take a look at your offer and your pitch technique. You are asking for high-end, offering low-end and doing it like an 8th grade science fair project. That is constructive criticism that you should at least consider. When you are asking for money, you better be a pro. Have data, details, risk assessments, payout scenarios - anything at all.Also, keep in mind, a forum like this is like any social gathering. We are all standing around have various conversations and this random, unknown person walks in and dives right into a pitch. In a real life social situation, this would get many blank stares, followed by "Who is this guy?". Don't start with the pitch. You look, sound, and feel like a pitchman. No one likes to be ambushed by a pitchman regardless of what is being pitched.

author: KJDS
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 17, 2016, 08:06:25 pm
content: @Rx8pilot, whilst I agree with much of what you say, every VC I've known has worked on a 10, 80, 10 rule.10% of investments are great80% just about show a return, but hardly worth the effort, but at least the initial investment comes back with a measly rate of interest.10% get written off, quite often rather quickly.and if you do have a Mazda RX8, you have my sympathies.

author: rx8pilot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 17, 2016, 08:25:10 pm
content: Quote from: KJDS on January 17, 2016, 08:06:25 pmI did have an RX8 along with bunch of other rotary Mazda's. They were a lot of fun. I built an RX7 into a race car too. The only real problem with the RX8 was that it was under-powered by 100hp. It needed a turbo or a wildly modified normally aspirated engine to deal with its weight. A bit of a dog, but had great driving qualities for a 4 door car. I nearly tore it apart to install a 4 rotor turbo (600hp), but spent the money on an airplane which is FAR more fun than a temperamental machine that gets you killed or your licence suspended.You are right about the VC formula, I should not have said a 'total loss on 90%'. Emotionally I feel that a product that a break-even is a total loss from the perspective of time. In reality, a total financial loss is truly a double whammy loss of both time and money. I can usually do a pilot run of a marginal product and sell enough to cover development before abandoning the idea. I have to work hard to separate the emotional and hard business of it all. Emotions make poor business insight.

author: mrpackethead
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 17, 2016, 10:25:47 pm
content: I was trying to be kind and not completely kill the guy.

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 18, 2016, 01:59:09 am
content: Quote from: mrpackethead on January 17, 2016, 09:32:09 amThat would be true if there were equal odds that his idea may be one of the 10% that work or the 90% that fail... but it's not equal odds. There are many ways to narrow down potential investments and increase your chances of success. This guy's pitch is missing any of those attributes, but puts it in the lottery ticket category. I don't generally play the lottery, but if I do it's a few bucks. Not thousands or tens of thousands worth of my time for a potential 10% of an unknown future payoff that might happen if this guy manages to make something happen possibly in the future.There's a word for that sort of thing... it's called a sucker bet.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 18, 2016, 04:14:53 am
content: Quote from: Corporate666 on January 18, 2016, 01:59:09 amYes, and that's the problem and the reason for the generally negative commentary here.The OP has admitted it's a simple idea that is simply a twist on existing stuff that everyone is doing.QuoteI think it's understandable that people would put it in the blue sky 1% shot category.

author: mrpackethead
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 18, 2016, 06:34:48 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on January 18, 2016, 04:14:53 amYes, but it could be the 1% that's worth a qua-zillon... Lucky i'm kinda busy.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 18, 2016, 06:42:24 am
content: Quote from: mrpackethead on January 18, 2016, 06:34:48 amSure, but so could any one of the 10's of thousands of other people who have similar "just a little bit different" ideas that they are just as sure will change the world. And most of them ultimately amount to nothing.1% is very generous, it's more like 0.01% or something chance of it amounting to anything.It's about statistics, that's what people are arguing here.

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 18, 2016, 06:46:11 am
content: 1% chance to win a jackpot that is worth more than 100 times what it takes to play? I'll be gambling like a foolEven 0.1% if the return is worth more than 1000 times. Further than that I won't live that longEdit: for projects that take at least a month to figure out if it works or not. Because it will be past 80 some years.

author: cobbler
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 18, 2016, 07:36:56 am
content: Depending on the definition of the word shoe... if the shoe contains a "battery cavity" you're gonna have to pay hella royalties to Celona, et al.And probably Sketchers tooIlluminatI shoe

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 18, 2016, 07:50:18 am
content: Quote from: cobbler on January 18, 2016, 07:36:56 amInsert shoe in helmetNothing to do with shoes on that patent, other than the foot in mouth

author: cobbler
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 18, 2016, 07:58:39 am
content: Quotelol upon further review, it appears on Dec 1, 2015 the USPTO awarded a patent to a "battery holding device", pretty sure prior art exists from the year 1800 AD.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 18, 2016, 09:06:32 am
content: Quote from: mrpackethead on January 18, 2016, 06:34:48 amSo, are you spending 1/12 (at least) of your annual income on any of the big lotteries? If not, why not?

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 18, 2016, 09:34:53 am
content: Quote from: miguelvp on January 18, 2016, 06:46:11 amSure, but if each play takes a couple of years off your life .... you'd be a fool to gamble.

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 18, 2016, 09:40:29 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on January 18, 2016, 09:34:53 amYup, that's why I added:Quote

author: station240
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 18, 2016, 05:36:10 pm
content: Quote from: applebeam on January 15, 2016, 11:37:55 amI hate your kind of people.1 month of power, food, rent, components to built a working prototype isnotnothing.!If you believe in your idea, go visit a bank to borrow the money so you can pay someone.

author: timb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 18, 2016, 09:47:20 pm
content: Those of us who we're alive when Vanilla Ice hit it big, Hammer Pants were in style and Saddam was getting his ass kicked (the first time) will remember this: LA Gear SneakersThe heels *lit up* when you walked! With LED lights! It's like my 10 year old feet were powered by Cylons! At school, during recess, we used to sneak into the old gym (the school was using it for storage) and play hide and seek and tag in the pitch black darkness. Of course, if you didn't have cool light up shoes you couldn't play.Mine lasted about 9 months before the batteries finally went, but I needed bigger shoes by then anyway. Still, 9 months is pretty good battery life. I wonder what kind of cells they used?Holy shit, I just checked and LA Gear still exists and they still sell L.A. Lights sneakers! I... I might have to buy a pair...

author: rx8pilot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 18, 2016, 11:14:50 pm
content: Quote from: station240 on January 18, 2016, 05:36:10 pmTo be fair, 10% is not nothing either. The OP is looking for someone with some entrepreneurial interest that can also design a product. I will not fault the concept, only the execution of the concept. It never hurts to ask, and as for the audience we can say 'YES' or 'NO' along with some feedback about why.Hopefully the OP will figure out that when you say that you are looking for someone that is absolutely critical to the success of a business, you have to follow that with offering something interesting. With no cash on the table, a percentage is all that is left. 10% probably won't attract any real talent, the idea will remain on a napkin and it hurts no one. If the OP really believes in it, he must sweeten the offering substantially with either cash, percentage, or both.As someone that has started a number of businesses, I hold the 'idea people' is high regard but only if they are good idea people. I have worked with numerous engineers that are implementors of good ideas but could never come up with their own idea that could fit in a business. They were good and talented people, but were not financially viable on their own. On the flip side, I have also worked with engineers that are very good at creating the ideas and concepts that drive a new product. Those engineers happen to be the ones that are the most sought after and paid the most. Engineering for the sake of engineering is academic and benefits no one. Engineering for a the purpose of solving a problem has real value.I would not think for a millisecond on taking this offer, but it could be an interesting opportunity for a young player to go through a design cycle and get some experience. I would not count on any payout at all whatsoever, but the lessons learned are lesson kept forever. It can always be negotiated too. Hating 'those kind of people' seems strong. I just see the OP as naive, but not someone to hate. I doubt I could count how many times I was overly optimistic in my younger years.To the OP:Pull it together and and analyze why the response you got was largely negative. Try again. Keep trying until you learn how to make an idea a reality. Persistence in the face of adversity is why I am surrounded by an infrastructure and skills to make anything I can think of. I have gone down many dead ends and just kept going - creating a new path along the way.

author: mrpackethead
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 18, 2016, 11:31:39 pm
content: Quote from: rx8pilot on January 18, 2016, 11:14:50 pmYes, and never give up. Refine, review, respin and have another go. Eventually you'll make it, if you try for long enough. None of us acehived anything valueable without makign a few clangers on the way.

author: Tomorokoshi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 19, 2016, 12:40:06 am
content: To put it another way, most of the people here have experienced the world of Dilbert in real life.

author: John_ITIC
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 19, 2016, 12:41:53 am
content: Quote from: Tomorokoshi on January 19, 2016, 12:40:06 amAlso known as the crab mentality...https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=crab+mentalityBut I agree with most responses; the effort put in must be rewarded or else the effort will not be put in. The question always boils down to how do the numbers work out...

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 19, 2016, 04:16:47 am
content: Quote from: rx8pilot on January 18, 2016, 11:14:50 pmThe OP isn't someone that can be learned from - well, perhaps "learning what not to do" - the project is dead before it ever starts. He has telegraphed that he doesn't have any real experience in the field, nor does he have any money, nor does he have anyone else who believes in his idea. If he had money (or access to people who believed in him or his idea and who had money) he would never offer equity in lieu of cash. If he really believed in the idea, he would never want to give 10% of an imminent huge payday to someone else. So this guy gets a doe-eyed engineer to front the entire development cost, then he takes it and *if* he can get any interest, he keeps 90%.He doesn't even have any IP. Someone posted the patent for a light up sneaker and the battery-in-a-shoe. I bet the OP didn't even know those patents exist and that he will either need to get around them or license them. He's quick to spend someone else's money (time) on a project he hasn't even done the most basic level of research on.

author: mrpackethead
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 19, 2016, 04:28:05 am
content: Quote from: Corporate666 on January 19, 2016, 04:16:47 amHe did say he had money to spend on IP protection if needed....

author: KJDS
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 19, 2016, 04:36:14 am
content: Quote from: mrpackethead on January 19, 2016, 04:28:05 amWorldwide patents would be about £50k. Protecting them at least ten times that.Making a prototype would be a few £k. If he has the money to protect, then he should pay an engineer rather than give away equity.

author: Howardlong
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 19, 2016, 08:13:28 am
content: Quote from: KJDS on January 19, 2016, 04:36:14 amPrecisely, and I'd say £50k is a basement price.

author: cobbler
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 19, 2016, 03:21:07 pm
content: If an idea is really worth patenting (most are not) it should be done way before any prototyping is done IMO.

author: cowana
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 19, 2016, 03:51:51 pm
content: Came across thison the Sparkfun forum...

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 19, 2016, 05:05:43 pm
content: Quote from: mrpackethead on January 19, 2016, 04:28:05 amI find that a curious statement (not from you, from the OP). Surely he has done market research on the industry and knows what is currently patented and what is not, and if he has carved out a small oasis of IP in this space, he would be the one to know whether it should be protected (on advice from counsel). To say "I have money for IP, if needed" is sort of like... "I have money to pay for hardware costs, if needed". And it also telegraphs that, yet again, he doesn't really value the contribution of the engineer/partner or even his own idea. If he has money for IP, he has money for salary... and nobody would ever give equity instead of salary if they truly believed the equity payoff would far exceed the cash payoff.

author: rx8pilot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 19, 2016, 05:18:39 pm
content: I don't think OP knows the actual cost of IP protection. It varies widely, but it is always a significant outlay if it is going to actually protect anything. Then, you have to be in a position to defend the patent if you are lucky enough to get one in a reasonable amount of time. Defending it is where the big money is. You can pay up front to get patent insurance or cross your fingers.Good luck fighting some obscure outfit in China that is copying your idea.I had a few provisional patents filed but never followed through to the end. Regardless of how novel my ideas were, I live in a niche world where the volumes don't justify IP protection. Happy about that.

author: SharpEars
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 19, 2016, 05:56:41 pm
content: Quote from: rx8pilot on January 15, 2016, 01:34:46 amPlease add a qualitative statement to your quantitative one.

author: rx8pilot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 19, 2016, 06:24:59 pm
content: Quote from: SharpEars on January 19, 2016, 05:56:41 pmI met a high-quality wife on match.com. After continuous testing, she meets or exceeds the specs on her data sheet - including the packaging data.

author: mrpackethead
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 19, 2016, 07:31:52 pm
content: Yeah, Patents are expensive, both on money and time.I've already sunk many tens of thousands into something we've developed. And I'm only part way there. But on this one its looking good.

author: timb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 20, 2016, 10:03:27 am
content: Quote from: rx8pilot on January 19, 2016, 06:24:59 pmSounds like a nice piece of gear! You should post some pictures without the case on. Though, you *would* have to go against Dave's motto and turn her on before taking it apart. What's her date code? Are there any sister parts available from the same family?