Small electronics company wants to compete on price with  huge Electronics co's - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: ocset
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 15, 2018, 03:00:34 pm
content: Hi,At our small company in UK, we try to design LED drivers which can compete on price with LED drivers which are already available ‘offtheshelf’. The competitor products to our own, are designed and manufactured by huge electronics corporations. Many would say we are fools to even attempt this..However, our contractor believes that by searching through the website “findchips.com”, we can find cheaper replacements for the components in our LED driver, and in this way, we will be able to compete on price with the huge electronics corporations. This is because he tells us that there is a “free market” (equally accessible to all) in electronics components and that this is equally available to all. He says that in order to compete on price, all we have to do is search through finchips.com and find the cheapest components...Though I think there is some truth in this, it only works up to a point. –Because it is just a fact that the huge electronics corporations can always get components cheaper than a small company (-because they have “relationships” with distributors and semiconductor fabrication plants that small companies cannot have).In any case, a particular component that is cheap on “findchips.com” in one week, may be more expensive than others in a few weeks time.Do you agree?....ie, that firstly the pricing on findchips.com is not absolutely representative of the actual price of any given component at any given time……the price of individual components is “up and down” with time.Also, even if we do find the cheapest components on findchips.com, these prices are still going to be well above the prices that the huge electronics corporations are paying for their electronics components. Do you agree?The following are some of the components in our BOM that our contractor has pinpointed as being “expensive” on findchips.com, and has asked us to find alternatives…..I mean, one of these components is a simple radial inductor by Panasonic (ELC09D221)…I tend to think that finding a cheaper alternative component to this one is a waste of time…because in a few months time, the ELC09D221 will be cheaper than whichever alternative we find.ELC09D221 inductor datasheet:http://www.farnell.com/datasheets/2245397.pdf?_ga=2.152052733.534014099.1537016082-711356958.1531003040&_gac=1.262824376.1534088552.EAIaIQobChMIhYuVlu3n3AIVBLTtCh1WOw0UEAAYASAAEgIsnfD_BwE7448640415 Common mode choke datasheet:-http://katalog.we-online.com/pbs/datasheet/7448640415.pdfIPA90R800C3 TO220 MOSFET:-https://www.infineon.com/dgdl/Infineon-IPA90R800C3-DS-v01_00-en.pdf?fileId=db3a30431b3e89eb011b8cd8a0b90fc6100nF, 1812, 1kV, X7R capacitor (C1812C104KDRACAUTO)https://uk.farnell.com/kemet/c1812c104kdracauto/cap-0-1-f-1-kv-10-x7r-1812/dp/2834518RLSTTH3010 datasheethttps://www.st.com/resource/en/datasheet/stth3010.pdfMCP65R46T comparator with referencehttp://ww1.microchip.com/downloads/en/DeviceDoc/22269B.pdf

author: doobedoobedo
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 15, 2018, 03:15:13 pm
content: https://www.taobao.com

author: Benta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 15, 2018, 03:27:08 pm
content: Congratulations! You've just found a way to close your company!Using dodgy components from dodgy sources is the certain way to run into quality problems. And when that happens, you won't have customers anymore, they've all run away.

author: mzzj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 15, 2018, 04:03:31 pm
content: Why I had the feeling that this thread is started by "treez" before even opening it?But this time I actually agree with treez, sounds generally as a bad idea.If you get enough big volume for the inductors it's probably worth checking what the chinese manufacturers can cook for you..

author: Ice-Tea
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 15, 2018, 06:27:01 pm
content: Just what exactlyisyour current strategy in terms of component sourcing? I hope it's not 'find the cheapest' on farnell for anything over a hundred pieces?I have no experience with findchips but it seems to mostly lead to reputable distributors like Arrow, Avnet, etc? Nothing wrong with that (if you stick to the reputable ones) but it also begs the question: why is your BOM not already with them??Aside from cherry picking the best offers from the usual suspects, there are a few manufacturers that try to cut out the middle man as much as possible and approach the customer directly with a portefollio that is as wide as possible. Würth is a good example. While their Farnell etc prices are ridiculous, their negotiated prices are quite decent.

author: ogden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 15, 2018, 06:44:20 pm
content: Quote from: treez on September 15, 2018, 03:00:34 pmMost likely it will become more expensive - because its through hole component that's already expensive today. Sorry to say, but only  designer would put such into low cost (!!!) product. I feel that TO220 transistor is even worse. Where and how do you assemble your low cost led driver? Using slave labor is no good those days

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 16, 2018, 03:34:01 am
content: What males you think the "big boys" don't have access to the same pricing opportunities? You can bet your boots they do - AND will have better negotiating power from the volume they will be able to purchase. You haven't got a hope, I'm sorry.Even then... IF you can get the components at a kick ass price:Quote from: ogden on September 15, 2018, 06:44:20 pmTo be honest, it sounds to me like your "contractor" is blowing smoke up your arse in order to stay on as long as they can so as to suck as much out of your budget as possible. There are some "consultants" out there that haven't got a decent clue about anything and couldn't hold down a permanent job if they tried - so they just take on stints where they can get in, take the money and leave before things turn to crap.I may be wrong ... but that's the "vibe" I'm getting.

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 16, 2018, 04:14:10 am
content: I do laugh when people think the component prices are the key to being competitive.PCB assembly, manufacturing labour, enclosure mechanical, QA, and warranty is a huge part of the total cost.Most companies have "fat" sales and marketing and executives, so a high margin is really the problem.Meh, let's push the engineers to save $5 with cheapola parts that backfire into warranty claims- but the accounting numbers will not show this long path, so it still looks good.Some companies are actually losing money selling their products and don't even realize it.If the component prices were miraculously 1/2 of what they are now, do the pie-chart and see what the product will now cost. You will find it's not worth a lot of sweat, compared to your labour costs on the production floor.

author: Rerouter
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 16, 2018, 04:46:07 am
content: Competing with larger companies is the easy part, there size gives them much more influence and power, but greatly slows down there development time and how quickly they can change things around.E.g. to get there whole supply chain ready to knock out 1 million units will take months of coordination, this is after the design is finalized, the molds for the enclosures routed and shipped, and the assembly lines optimized.VS you, Pick non custom housings, and parts common across many suppliers, and you can likely punch out 1000 units in 3 weeks, and if people ask for new features, it would again take you that 3 weeks or less to spin out a new model.So I would approach it from that angle, address your customers needs, e.g. is the competitors product to large an bulky, would they prefer another interface? is there something about the competitors product that makes developing on it painful?Atleast that is how I make my money, having all the idiot checks in place well ahead, and talking shop to the users to get an actual feel for how there using them, and what they dream of.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 16, 2018, 05:52:10 am
content: Yes. Small, nimble and responsive will give you an advantage over the big guys ... and cost is not going to be one of your prime metrics.

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 16, 2018, 05:58:20 am
content: Quote from: Rerouter on September 16, 2018, 04:46:07 amI've been working with a large power electronics company, on a project that's been in development for several years now. Design seemed to be going okay within this small department, primarily by one employee -- who has since left. The project manager is now responsible, and as he can't do it himself, we've been called on for design assistance. At first, we were supposed to help with programming, then it became tweaking the circuit for production-readiness or other small fixes. Well, we then discovered that, the sensors originally selected for the project, simply cannot give the performance expected, and no one did the analysis to figure this out. The reason is partly because E&M fields are hard, but also partly because the original proposals just didn't envision the use-cases where those fields will be a problem. So, while they followed internal procedures to a tee, but the project never touched anyone with enough breadth of knowledge to have that insight, and as a result, it's well below the required spec, and well behind schedule.So yeah, being agile, unburdened with internal procedure, you can* deliver a product much faster, and potentially better, than a large company can. Maybe cheaper, too.*Can, not will. There is always opportunity to fail; it takes commitment and excellence from the whole team to succeed, of course!Tim

author: ocset
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 16, 2018, 09:55:08 am
content: Thanks, i think with our case, the huge celectronics corporations have already done the work, and already produced their led drivers, and have them on the shelves ready to buy...and we are now choosing to try and compete with these ready-to-sell products (LED drivers).What we are making is the same spec as what they have already produced. ..What we are doing just doesnt add up.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 16, 2018, 10:12:30 am
content: Quote from: treez on September 16, 2018, 09:55:08 amIf something is not profitable and/or worthwhile to the company for other reasons. It should not produce and sell stuff in that market.If a company does not stop producing unprofitable items. Eventually it can run out of resources (money), and go bankrupt.E.g. Maplins

author: ocset
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 16, 2018, 10:42:09 am
content: QuoteThanks very true, i think there is a case though, (at least in UK) where a company that gets minted importing stuff in from the Far East, must make "something" in-house, in order to masquerade as a "designer/manufacturer", because when you have that status, you are then more likely to be chosen by customers who will buy stuff from you that you have imported fromt the Far East.So its all about "positioning" your company to be able to make those big "middle man" Far Eastern import contracts. Its all a clever pretence.Its also about the middle men being able to knock the Chinese further down in price, by saying to the Chinese…either you sell it cheaper or we’ll just design/manufacture it ourselves…and we have that capability…blah blah blah….just look at “these” products, that we made all by ourselves already…...you don’t knock the price down, and we’ll just make it ourselves.

author: m98
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 16, 2018, 11:01:08 am
content: Wait, so you only manufacture LED drivers because then you'll attract more customers and have better negotiation power for your main business? Then why do you even need a profit margin on those? Just sell them for competitive pricing, keep the loss to a minimum and call it marketing expenses.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 16, 2018, 11:03:31 am
content: Quote from: treez on September 16, 2018, 10:42:09 amTesco's are talking about doing something similar, right now.They are planning on introducing a new range (Brand) of shops. So that they can compete with Aldi and Lidl.They see it as a win win situation. Because they either make lots of profit from the new shops, or don't (if no profit, it at least hinders the competition (Aldi/Lidl), from taking too much business away from the Tesco brand).E.g. Intel might produce some new cpus. Not to make money necessarily, but to prevent AMD from successfully making money from AMD cpus.Microsoft is blamed for doing this, to stop other companies from releasing competing operating systems. Hence maintaining Microsofts monopoly on the software market.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 16, 2018, 01:53:51 pm
content: Forget it, let me tell you a true story.The amount of drivers sold each period is predicted and the amount of components ordered a year ahead.One of the drivers were sold 150% so production had to ramp up.One of the preferred manufacturers could/would not sell a critical ic, our quota was all we could get.So the hw eng dept got the task to pick an ic from the alternative manufacturers and use that.It was a well known chinese manufacturer. The ic on paper would be equal but needed different external components, usually no problem.During testing it was found out the ic would be unstable at high temperatures eeding more expensive npo caps, extra compensation circuit etc etc.In the end we just burned half year engineering and still had not the same quality.So in short it is not about price for critical components and you can be assured that the a-manufacturers play the cost down game as well.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 16, 2018, 04:49:48 pm
content: If you want to play in the big leagues, you need to make the rules.When Jack Welch ran GE, he had a rule for the business segments: If they weren't number one in the market or number two with a chance of becoming number one, he sold off the business. Only the leader can set the price. GE sold a lot of perfectly good businesses that simply had no chance of becoming number one in their market.The only way a small company can compete with a large company is by having much less overhead. The small company can't get economy of scale in purchasing or manufacturing so the only place left to cut costs to hit the price point is to dump overhead. This also means that R&D will probably not exist. The small company will simply be a "me too" business.It is counterproductive to use cheaper components and take the hit on warranty and reputation.

author: ocset
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 16, 2018, 05:05:19 pm
content: Thanks, i'd add to that that the small general lighting company, if it wants to survive, must just start importing direct from China and just be a "middle man" importer of Chinese goods.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 16, 2018, 05:11:16 pm
content: Quote from: treez on September 16, 2018, 05:05:19 pmBut then, sooner or later.The Chinese may get more aggressive (in the business market), and utilise the fact that they know (trade secrets), how to make, reasonable (or good) quality lighting products.So the Chinese, may decide to grab the full 100% of the profit. By opening up sales distribution agencies in the UK (and other places), who can sell direct WITHOUT involving the middlemen.I.e. You could be without a job, along with the rest of your fellow workers.

author: ocset
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 16, 2018, 07:24:58 pm
content: thanks, yes, i agree with you, and this is why the UK must abide by the recommendations of the "Revive British Industry" campaign...

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 16, 2018, 07:53:17 pm
content: Quote from: treez on September 16, 2018, 07:24:58 pmWARNING: This post has been created in a light-hearted (semi-joking style), and only vaguely, if at all, represents reality. Hopefully the jist is still partly correct.People sort of have to accept, lots of hard business facts and realities.The 1950s has been and gone, and probably is not going to return, anytime soon.For example, let's say I had an identical twin brother, and we both were as good (or bad), at high tech stuff, as each other. So we jointly, invent, this wondrous new type of LED lighting system, which is assembled out of normal electronic parts, but otherwise is a great invention.We each have £100,000 in cash (bank loan), to start up a new business.So, I start one such business in the UK, and my identical twin brother starts up a completely separate company in the best Electronics part of China for doing stuff like that. The Chinese government agree to this business, with no strings attached. (unrealistic, I know, they will want approx 49%/51% of the company and/or significant Chinese involvement, plus they will want its IP). N.B. All figures very approximate, and NOT 100% realistic, I know!So, in the UK, I would have to pay, something like £1 for a suitable set of transistors for the device.My Chinese identical twin only has to pay £0.05 for the set of transistors.I have to pay an additional £5 for the device to be manufactured in the UK.My twin only needs to pay £0.25 for quality Chinese manufacturing (he found a good quality factory there).I have to pay £3 import and other taxes, he only has to pay £0.10 taxes and fees.So the LED lamp, made in the UK, costs £20 per lamp.But my twin brothers lamp, in China costs £1 per lamp.We both sell the lamps mail order.I need to charge £50 to the UK customers. Cost breakdown, £20 per LED lamp, £10 profit, £10 delivery charge, £10 VAT. Total = around £50.My identical Chinese twin brother needs to charge £3 via ebay, to deliver them to the UK. Doesn't pay UK taxes, such as VAT. Should, but in practice I think Chinese sellers get away with it.At £50 final sale price, I manage to sell 2 LED lights. So I received £100. Made £20 profit. Had to pay £10,000 to hire the unit and busines tax rates and Electricity bill.Total profit = -£9,980 over 12 months.The Chinese company, my identical twin brother, sells 100,000 of the LED lights, £3 each.Makes £1 x 100,00 = £100,000 profit.After paying £500 in Chinese taxes and £0 in UK taxes/VAT, and £200 for the rental of a unit in China.Total profit = £99,300So a question.Which one of the twins, is driving round in a shiny, Red Ferrari, with a nice wife/girlfriend, while driving to their nice luxury home, in China ?And which one is being man-handled by court bailiffs, over £9,980 they owe to the bank. Sleeping rough and getting very cold and wet, in the British weather ?WARNING: This post has been created in a light-hearted (semi-joking style), and only vaguely, if at all, represents reality. Hopefully the jist is still partly correct.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 16, 2018, 08:31:53 pm
content: That is why you let an italian guy design your lamp, built it with your hands and out of the most luxury expensive materials you can get your hand of, sell maximum eight per design @ £79000.- and don't forget to call it exclusive art and lay the emphasis on only 8 pieces made and lie that half are already sold to make those people with too much money make haste for ordering.

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 16, 2018, 08:33:20 pm
content: Quote from: rstofer on September 16, 2018, 04:49:48 pmInstead of growing or developing the business, including (first) doing a decent business plan - this is the corporate cancer: demand the business unit be number one or off with your head.GE sucks badly lately, so I wonder if this "swing the axe" rule is good for anything other than war.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 16, 2018, 08:36:16 pm
content: Quote from: Kjelt on September 16, 2018, 08:31:53 pmGreat idea!Banksy LED Lamps.Limited edition of only 8.I can even use the £79,000 in Italy, to buy the Red Ferrari, there and then.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 16, 2018, 08:39:11 pm
content: Or buy the front of the ferrari and built a led lamp from it and sell it for £790000 goes quicker that way.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 16, 2018, 08:44:58 pm
content: Your idea, is still NOT crazy enough. Google was able to find someone who has done it already, or at least fairly similar.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 16, 2018, 08:48:14 pm
content: Quote from: treez on September 16, 2018, 07:24:58 pmAnything with a hint of protectionism (like government owned businesses) is an all-lose situation. You charge the taxpayers for the privilege of overpaying for goods. They get hit for the cost of running the business and then they get to overpay for the products. In general, people don't like this idea.We, in the first world countries, don't want to see our way of living reduced to that of third world countries. That is understandable. But we can't keep what we have if we also include barriers to trade.So, as bad as it seems, we need to step away from low level manufacturing. Sure, cars and airplanes can be competitive but not T-shirts and jeans. We need to walk away from those things and take up technology.The US doesn't have the lowest manufacturing cost in the world, far from it. What we do have is creativity. We don't build magic but we do invent it. For that you need to world's best educated work force. We're a little light on that but, overall, we're in pretty good shape. We have some great institutions as do many other countries.Why is Silicon Valley so successful? Stanford University - simple as that. The best education breeding startup companies like puppies. Some succeed, some fail, but if enough startups succeed we make a lot of money. We (California) used to build airplanes and still do to some extent but it's nothing like the days after WWII and up through the cold war. People whose only skill was bucking rivets are unemployable today. People who design avionics will always have a job.So, as to that "Revive British Industry" document, I think the part about encouraging STEM education is absolutely the right thing to do. The bit about having government owned businesses, maybe not so much. The government, any government, is not going to run an efficient business.I was in 7th grade, I believe, when Sputnik was launched. Unless you were there, you couldn't imagine the shift in focus. Everybody had to really get into math and science. No more fooling around with navel gazing, we had things to learn. Everybody had to go to engineering school.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 16, 2018, 08:51:15 pm
content: Trying to compete with big companies for what are universal "jellybean" products like LED drivers makes no sense.If there are reasons you need an own-brand product, buy in and badge something from China.The only way you can succeed is if you fill a special niche that's too small for the big guys, but big enough to be worthwhile.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 16, 2018, 08:55:23 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on September 16, 2018, 08:51:15 pmBut it can make sense to at least one person. I.e. OP/Treez.Hopefully, we can persuade the OP/Treez, that his idea may not be a good business/government plan.EDIT: I'm disappointed, that the business where he works, seems to be trying out that very strategy.It could go, badly wrong.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 16, 2018, 08:57:07 pm
content: Quote from: floobydust on September 16, 2018, 08:33:20 pmIt worked very well under Jack Welch. His successors have been totally incompetent.I think maybe GE shot themselves in the foot when they sold off GE Capital. At one time they were the profit leaders of GE. They owned more airplanes than any airline, they owned more railroad rolling stock than any railroad and a vast number of containers hauling cargo were owned by GE. Plus consumer credit, of course.They got badly hurt in the 2008 meltdown and I guess GE didn't see a way to resurrect that business. Now that the markets have fully recovered, GE isn't benefiting. Too bad...Or, one could argue that Jack Welch was a unique individual running a business during a unique period of time. "He got lucky!". I'm not buying that, he was a genius!

author: Benta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 16, 2018, 09:26:00 pm
content: "treez", this is the last post from me as to your threads on street lighting. I'm fed up with the whining.Your company is doomed if it keeps following the business model of making LED drivers for street lighting. There are very big companies already doing this, and they don't just offer the drivers - they offer the complete street lamp including mast, excavation, cabling and installation. And they have 100s of engineers developing this, plus a sales force that knows exactly how to address public utilities and municipalities.This market is NOT for a SMB.YOUR market is niche, and that's where you can excel! Designer lighting, architectural lighting, mood lighting, club lighting and so on. Applications where tailor-made solutions are sought.Go actively find designers and architects that need your kind of know-how. Then you're suddenly in a high-margin business.Sorry for the harsh tone, but after reading dozens of your threads I felt it had to be said.No offense intended, I hope you find success.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 16, 2018, 10:27:55 pm
content: where is this quality chinese factory?and, don't you just feel personally violated by 49/51? chinese government should get their own ferraries off my back because they let me exploit their peons or something? i'd rather sleep at night. who the hell takes 51%, thats a legitimate take over.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 16, 2018, 10:54:03 pm
content: Quote from: coppercone2 on September 16, 2018, 10:27:55 pmWARNING: To correct a possible misunderstanding. This post has had this warning added to it. It is a joke post!It is in a very secret place, which even if I was under immense pressure, I'd never reveal to you.Ok, here it is:http://www.globalsources.com/NEWS/SIC-6-crucial-steps-sourcing-good-factory-china.HTMHow to get out of the 49%:51% and similar issues. again, I'd never tell you.Ok, here it is:https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/world/china-watch/business/shanghai-encourages-foreign-startups/As to the Ferrari, again I'd never tell or show you how or what that gets sorted out.Ok, here it is:WARNING: To correct a possible misunderstanding. This post has had this warning added to it. It is a joke post!

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 16, 2018, 10:56:33 pm
content: did you even read it? does anyone here look like a graduate from a chinese university? that whole article reads like a puff piece from some comradesand that picture in that article about factories looks like something someone set up out of a apartment.surely your joking? unless you mean I should look for a patsy that graduated from a Chinese university and then trust or find a way to control him so I can run my business? their probably a bit 'culturally (r)educated' after going to a Chinese university man..

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 16, 2018, 11:03:09 pm
content: Quote from: coppercone2 on September 16, 2018, 10:56:33 pmYou are exactly right, yes I was being light hearted. It was a joke.The original concept. That it can be considerably cheaper to get things done in China, rather than the west, is basically potentially true.BUT I did not spend the time and effort, spending 6 months (say), researching specifically how to do a real/proper start up in China, vs the UK or West. Because I don't have that specific experience, so I made stuff up.But the jist of it, is hopefully at least partly true, to try and explain the concept in this thread. It was intended to be obvious that I was being light hearted.E.g. I probably don't have an identical twin in real life, who is also technically minded. Etc etc.WARNING: I've amended the original post, with a somewhat big warning message. That it is done in a light-hearted way.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 16, 2018, 11:06:05 pm
content: I.e. It perhaps would cost me £100 to get a small prototype set of small scale PCBs manufactured in the UK.The same set of prototype PCBs, at less, but still quite good quality, would perhaps cost only £20 from Chinese PCB suppliers.So what I was saying, is similar to that. Just scaled up a lot, for LED light production.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2018, 07:20:12 am
content: Quote from: rstofer on September 16, 2018, 08:48:14 pmPerhaps it is my poor perception of the US but it seems the brightest minds are imported from abroad for big $.How are americans doing in education anno 2018 ? How is the level of highschool education at the moment? Last time I checked it was mediocre.Still, every country has a huge population and if only the 10% brightest are usefull there is a big problem. Those 90% also need jobs and good living standards because then they buy stuff that helps the economy. Your country is at the moment IMO a poor example of how we need to distribute wealth over the population. I believe your 1% richest have 99% of the wealth and someone also gave them huge tax cuts so they don't pay much tax either. The result well you can figure it out on your own but to give a hint it gets worse and worse each year. No I am not a communist but capitalism is starting to fail when the money is not circulating but hoarded by a few privilegedNr 1 solution is a lot of decent payed jobs and I don't see only technology generate that many jobs, au contraire, the amount of jobs in electronics have decreased over the years in the as you call it 1st world countries. I see a future in a lot a lot of small businesses each serving a niche product or service. The big companies like GE are dinosaurs and getting extinct. You can't do everything and be the best in everything you need to focus. But that is how I think about it.To get back on topic: building your own LED drivers might not be a good market opportunity, installing and servicing them (24/7 service?) can be, if someone wants that badly enough to pay for it.

author: xaxaxa
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2018, 11:37:27 am
content: Quote from: coppercone2 on September 16, 2018, 10:27:55 pmI think you just need to have the company owned by a chinese citizen. Plus you can always just operate without ever registering a business. In practice most small companies and individual merchants don't, and no one pays tax either. (sales tax is never paid unless a receipt is issued.)

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2018, 12:54:24 pm
content: Quote from: Kjelt on September 17, 2018, 07:20:12 amThe US isn't doing so well when it comes to education. There are a few well know flagship schools and examples that seem to dominate the discussion, but those also seem to obscure reality. The average or mean student isn't great when compared to those of other advanced industrial nations and you need those numbers to get anywhere. A few stellar examples won't cut it.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2018, 02:38:24 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on September 17, 2018, 12:54:24 pmWell, as uneducated as we are, an awful lot of innovation starts in the US.One reason is that the cost of entry into becoming a business isn't terribly high and there are risk takers willing to put money into a good idea. Sure, they're going to take a sizable chunk of the ownership but that's the way capitalism works. There were a huge number of multi-millionaires created the day Facebook went public.We're having a problem defining equality in financial terms. The right's definition is equality at the starting line. Everybody has the opportunity to get a good education at a reasonable cost but they have to do the work. The left wants equality at the finish; equal outcome without equal effort. That isn't going to happen!California is the 5th largest economy in the world but we have the highest poverty rate in the US when housing is included. The median home price is over $500k. Why? Because we make it easy to be poor. We have programs for everything!Kids have exactly one choice: Get a really good education and work in STEM. If not, flip burgers for a living because the jobs in the middle are going away. There'll still be a lot of jobs in retail and quite a few in manufacturing (and some of those pay well) but as the US shifts to a technology based society, you're either in or you're out. You can either write code or you're going to go hungry (not literally but close).Our top universities are pretty good. Cal-Tech, MIT, Stanford, Berkeley, Harvard, and that bunch. But our state universities are also pretty good as are the state colleges (even the community colleges). The students who complete the programs and can't find a job chose the wrong major. Trust me, there's no point in majoring in navel gazing.I wish we did a better job teaching math in the lower grades. The problem may just be that the teachers don't understand it either. Given that Calc I is supposed to be the first math course upon entry to a STEM program, there is the assumption that the incoming students have already mastered Algebra, Geometry and Trig. Unfortunately, our high schools don't always meet that need. There are a number of societal reasons for this but an incoming student will almost always have to spend a year taking Pre-Calc. The 5 year STEM program just stretched out to 6.We have a problem segregating students and this keeps the 'average' level of achievement in the lower grades at a pretty low level. By chance, there are dull/disinterested/disruptive students and bright students in a class and the material will be taught to the lowest common denominator and that's pretty low. There are some charter schools working on this but it isn't going to be enough. We really need a scheme for dividing up the classes. The AP concept helps but that starts in high school (I think) and that's pretty late.In effect, education doesn't really kick into high gear until college.And, yes, we import bright people from all over the world. I would like to see us pick up the pace on that. Go out and harvest all the brain power we can get!

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2018, 03:59:10 pm
content: Quote from: rstofer on September 17, 2018, 02:38:24 pmThe education problems in the US are mostly in the schools. Over half the founders of startups reaching IPO in the US were not born in the US, but many received their university education there.Quote from: rstofer on September 17, 2018, 02:38:24 pmMost countries have trashed their maths education. When I was at school in the UK in the 60s and early 70s I spent over half my maths lessons between 14 and 18 studying calculus. Today they start calculus far later, and don't get that deep into it before finishing school. They haven't added much alternative material to replace the calculus which has been dropped. When I talk with people my age in places like India and China they all complain of similar lowering standards they see in their children's education. When you see reports of high maths standards in Asian schools, they aren't all that impressive by historic standards. The quality of people hasn't degraded, but what is expected of them has.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2018, 04:26:39 pm
content: Until we separate the students who can and will from those who can't or won't, our mandatory lower level education system is doomed to fail. Then the burden falls on the community colleges to pick up the slack and get the students ready for their major.I worked in Singapore for a while and I was impressed by their education system. What really amazed me was walking into McD's late in the afternoon and seeing the back section of the dining room filled with middle school kids doing their homework. No food fights, no grab assing, just good solid work. It was a sight!But their parents are relentless on education. Everybody understands that what they will achieve in life will be a function of their education.I really admire Singapore and their leadership!

author: Bassman59
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2018, 04:51:00 pm
content: Quote from: Kjelt on September 17, 2018, 07:20:12 amThe biggest problem with education in the US is that a small group of very rich people have decided that they have no interest in funding public education at the levels required to maintain excellence. To that end, they've run a some long-game parallel tasks meant to disrupt public education.One is to broadcast propaganda on a particular cable TV channel saying that "taxes are bad, you should demand tax cuts everywhere."A second is to fund the candidacies of elected officials who agree with the "taxes bad" premise, and to fund smear campaigns against candidates who recognize that taxes are needed to fund necessary public programs.A third is to demonize teachers and teaching as a profession ("that lazy teacher only works 9 months out of the year!"), so that voters in local districts see schools as a drain on public money. Part of this is demonization of education and intelligence, calling people with college degrees "elites" and the like. (Perversely, many of the people calling those with college educations "elites" are products of the most elite universities in the country! But they know their audience and feed them the nonsense anyway.)A fourth is to use standardized testing to identify "failing" schools, and use the test scores as a cudgel to say, "Your school isn't meeting our standards, therefore we will cut funding to it." Which, of course, is exactly the wrong thing to do. And while people on the ground can identify the reasons why schools "fail" (hint: poverty is the number one reason for lack of achievement in schools, this is a conclusion not up for debate), for obvious reasons the people controlling the purse are not listening and are not interested in those reasons.And the fifth combines all of the above to reduce funding for public education at all levels.Make no mistake: there are a LOT of very bright kids here. The problem is that too many of them never get any opportunity to capitalize on their intelligence. A lot of kids are born with two strikes against them and there's a fastball coming at them all the time.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2018, 06:42:12 pm
content: Quote from: xaxaxa on September 17, 2018, 11:37:27 amthats pretty shady

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2018, 08:11:59 am
content: Quote from: Benta on September 16, 2018, 09:26:00 pmThe solution is RGB streetlights, preferably with a stroboscope setting.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2018, 08:20:18 am
content: Quote from: Benta on September 16, 2018, 09:26:00 pmI too hope he finds success, but I suspect he is operating in such a small market that the other inhabitants can guess who he is. (No, I don't know, and don't want to know).He has the air of a computer engineer in this old joke...Three engineers are riding in a car. One is a mechanical engineer, one is an electrical engineer, and one is a computer engineer. The car breaks down and coasts to the side of the road."Hang on," says the mechanical engineer. "The problem is probably the engine, let me have a look at it and I'll have us on the road again in no time.""Wait," says the electrical engineer. "The way it just stopped like that, I think it's the electrical system. Let me have a look and I'll get us going again in a minute or two.""Hold on," says the computer engineer. "Why don't we all just get out of the car and get in again, and then see if it starts?"

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2018, 08:37:11 am
content: Since you just told a joke, it is too tempting for me.If and when I eventually die, I want to die, very peacefully in my sleep, just like my great grandfather did.Not screaming in abject terror and complete horror. Like the passengers my great grandfather, was giving a lift to, when he fell asleep and crashed.

author: mrpackethead
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2018, 09:11:06 am
content: goign back to the OP, try lcsc.com they are the digikey of china.

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2018, 07:59:22 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on September 18, 2018, 08:20:18 amI prefer the version where the s/w engineer says "Let's push the car back up to the top of the hill and see if the brakes burn out again".

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2018, 08:05:08 pm
content: Quote from: Gyro on September 18, 2018, 07:59:22 pmThat probably is more apt, given the OP!