English and wot ‘ow it should be writ (or Tips for better technical English) - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Just_Understand_It
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2019, 12:04:05 pm
content: According to the internet, about 90% of the population of the UK and Ireland are native English speakers. That’s about 58 million people, or less than 1% of the world population. If we allow that Americans, Canadians, Australians, New Zealanders and some others speak English [dubious, discuss] that brings the total up to about 360 million (roughly 5%) who “speak English as their first language”. (https://www.babbel.com/en/magazine/how-many-people-speak-english-and-where-is-it-spoken).According to the same source, “1.5 billion speak English — that’s 20% of the Earth’s population.”What does this have to do with Electronics or EEVblog?Well, I’m reading lots of technical documentation — datasheets and manuals. A very large proportion of these originate in the US (where, I shall grudgingly admit, they do speak English). But a significant proportion comes from elsewhere:ST - French/ItalianRohde & Schwarz (Hameg) - GermanPhilips - Dutchetc.And, of course, Japan, Korea and China.And I’ve noticed that certain “errors” in English Usage have established themselves. And what happens is that people, non-native English speakers, read these documents, read the incorrect English, learn it, and perpetuate it.And thus the language develops and changes over time. But this change is being driven by Non-native English Speakers (who, remember, outnumber the natives 4:1)! I’m sure linguists have a term for this.Anyway. I’m a multi-lingual native English/German speaker, with fairly good French and Italian. I used to work in an international organisation where I occasionally corrected people’s English.This was usually expressly appreciated— people wanted to improve their English and complained that many English speakers wouldn’t correct them, for fear of offending. In the same way, I expressly had to ask native French or Italian speakers to correct me. [and, full disclosure, an Italian once corrected my English! :-) ]So, in the spirit ofconstructive criticism, and in an attempt to improve the world andstave off the collapse of Western CivilisationI offer the following and invite others to contribute:1. Eventually (EN) != eventuell (DE)The word “eventually” is NOT the correct translation of the German “eventuell”. The correct translation is, depending on context, something like “may”, “might”, “maybe”, “possibly”, “in the event that” etc.“Eventually” is letztendlich, schließlich, endlich(see also finally, ultimately, in the end, at last)“Eventuell” is possibly, perhaps, in certain circumstances(see also möglicherweise, gegebenenfalls, vielleicht, unter Umständen)Eventually means “it definitely *will* happen. It might take some time, but it *will* happen.Eventuell means “maybe, possibly contingent on something else.”“Possibly” is the OPPOSITE of “definitely”!Examples:A, und eventuell B, werden gesetzt.=A, and possibly B, will be set.A, and eventually B, will be set.=A, und letztendlich auch B, werden gesetzt.2. Allows to doAnd variants with allows/encourages/enables/requires/forbids etc.The system allows to set the frequency. Should be:The system allows the setting of the frequency. orThe system lets you set the frequency. [BETTER?]This is an odd one -- because it sounds just as bad in German:Das System erlaubt zu setzten die Frequenz. which should be:Das System ermöglicht die Einstellung der Frequenz. (or, if you’resettingbits)Das System erlaubt das Setzen der Bits.And in French:Le système permet définir la fréquence.Should be:Le système permet la définition de la fréquence.orLe système vous permet de définir la fréquence.Or in Italian:Il sistema consente la definizione della frequenza.orIl sistema ti permette di definire la frequenza.

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2019, 03:50:08 pm
content: I have seen some non-English speakers use "shall" instead of "should". "You shall measure the voltage" instead of "you should measure the voltage". I have no idea why. It's odd.And I have seen quite a few native English speakers drop the final d like "he is suppose to do it" instead of "he is supposed to do it". This grates me very mucho.Then common mistakes like payed for paid. Mistaking affect and effect, principal and principle, there and their, your and you're, etc. I mean, come on, different words, different meaning, different spelling.I know it is prejudice but I have a harder time taking seriously anyone who cannot express his thoughts correctly in his own mother tongue.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2019, 04:19:02 pm
content: Quote from: Just_Understand_It on August 03, 2019, 12:04:05 pmOH nothing less! Really! (And jokes aside, English is not just used in the western world, so I'm not sure why you'd think it could hurt the western civilisation more than the others...)Anyway, regarding your examples: eventually is a very common false friend for many other languages. Anyone having learned the basics of english should know what it means, but I agree this word is still very commonly misused. But since it's a known false friend, usually you pick up the mistake pretty easily.Regarding "allowing to", this is really nitpicking here. In most cases it doesn't hinder comprehension.(Just a small correction: in French, "Le système permet définir la fréquence." is not quite correct, that would be "Le système permetdedéfinir la fréquence.")Still the two above examples are very far from being the worst and are often pretty harmless. But there are far worse common mistakes and false friends that can lead to completely erroneous interpretation.English has become the de facto "universal" language. I don't think Esperanto has really caught on. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Esperanto)Yes it's actually a problem... not really as an "auxiliary" language, because it does that relatively well, but because it often becomes the ONLY, or at least main language allowed in some areas such as scientific publication. Even when it doesn't lead to ambiguous or even false statements due to language mistakes, I think it makes written communication poorer overall. To me it's a real problem in scientific publication. Many articles written in english by non-native speakers really are painful to read.

author: 001
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2019, 04:38:11 pm
content: I cant told english but I can readI absolutelly not understand eevblog youtube channel but forum is great

author: Just_Understand_It
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2019, 05:04:29 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on August 03, 2019, 04:19:02 pmThat was an example of it being incorrect in French. But if "Le système permetdedéfinir la fréquence." is correct, and "Le systèmevouspermetdedéfinir la fréquence." is unnecessarily wordy, then maybe that's the source for this error.QuoteSo, which are the worst?QuoteAgreed, but I'd like to emphasize, again, that this is understandable. These people's English is infinitely better than my Korean or whatever. But I think the most common errors, and those likely to cause confusion, should be highlighted and corrected.

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2019, 05:23:19 pm
content: @SoldarShall and Should are widely used in standards and policies documents and have different meaning. SHALL is used to specify absolute requirements, SHOULD is used to specify "good to have" requirements.As to Shall not used by native English speake it is absolutely false. Fraser from UK who is a prominent member of this forum uses it all the time, as well as BigClive from Scotland.

author: Just_Understand_It
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2019, 05:24:54 pm
content: Oh god!I wasn't going to try and correct native English speakers' English. That's a lost cause!Where?Here, there. See a pattern? Their and they're are different.It's = it is. Its = belongs to it.I saw him. Whomdid I see?He saw me. Who saw me?It's not muchofa problem. It's not that big [] a problem.Isaw him. You saw him. You andIsaw him.He sawme. He saw you. He saw you andme.Pointless. Even English teachers, politicians, journalists and editors can't get this sort of thing right.Oh, and Mrs May's "I am clear that this is very concerning."

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2019, 05:32:23 pm
content: Quote from: soldar on August 03, 2019, 03:50:08 pmHow do you hear the difference between a quickly spoken "suppose to" and "supposed to"? "Shall" is generally used when people are expected to do something or strongly advised to do so. "Motorists shall turn off their engine during refueling"

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2019, 05:33:14 pm
content: Quote from: Bud on August 03, 2019, 05:23:19 pmI have no idea how any of this relates to what I said. I said some people use "shall" where they mean "should" and I have noticed it mainly in people from Eastern European countries.Can you explain your post to me? Because I have a feeling I am not understanding you.

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2019, 05:42:12 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on August 03, 2019, 05:32:23 pmWhether you hear it or not literate people are supposeD to know the difference. Like between "there" and "they're". They may sound similar but literate people know the difference between "hair" and "hare" even if they sound the same.Quote from: Mr. Scram on August 03, 2019, 05:32:23 pmI know the difference very well and do not require any further clarification. I just mentioned that some people use "shall" when they obviously mean "should". You can take it up with them.

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2019, 05:45:21 pm
content: Agreed on the 'technical imperative' use of 'shall' in standards and requirements documents.The only casual use of shall that I can think of is in questions. Eg. "Shall we go to the beach?" This usage, while coming from previous generations (often found in classical books) is still in common usage today.

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2019, 06:36:29 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on August 03, 2019, 05:55:21 pmYes, sorry, I was (obviously, I thought) referring to posts in this and other forums.Quote from: Mr. Scram on August 03, 2019, 05:55:21 pmI have seen it in this and other forums. For instance, a made up example: somebody asks about repairing a faulty item and someone might say "Before assuming it is faulty you shall check it is receiving power". Obviously the correct meaning is "Before assuming it is faulty you should check it is receiving power". In other words, my advice is that you should do this but "shall" is a command and if someone seriously means "you shall" the appropriate response might be "I shall do whatever I want and not what you tell me to do".I think this may be a thing with people whose native language leads to this confusion. I do not remember seeing it in native English speakers.I am sure a search of this and other forums will turn up a few "you are suppose" and "you shall".

author: Benta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2019, 06:51:54 pm
content: @Just_Understand_It:You forgot the worst one:Sensitive - sensibelSensible - vernünftigI see this one again and again in presentations done by native German speakers, and it leaves listeners with big question marks hovering above their heads."This device is very sensible to temperature changes."

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2019, 09:35:20 pm
content: English As She Is Spoke.

author: HwAoRrDk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2019, 10:24:27 pm
content: One thing I have noticed that seems to be common to many non-native English speakers is their use of 'since' as an indication of a period of time. For example: "I have worked here since 6 months", which more correctly should be: "I have worked here for 6 months". The word 'since' is generally only used in partnership with a specific point in time.I suspect it comes from translating directly from native grammar, but I've never really looked in to which languages work like that.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 04, 2019, 12:58:41 am
content: @HwAoRrDk: Dutch for example.

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 04, 2019, 03:24:31 am
content: Quote from: Red Squirrel on August 03, 2019, 10:19:24 pm

author: bitseeker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 04, 2019, 03:39:53 am
content: Among common written errors, the one that has been bothering me the most during the past few years is "its" (possessive) vs. "it's" (contraction). The error rate is so high (and has persisted for so long) that I have to second guess my own spelling in order to ensure that I don't succumb to"change  is being driven by Non-native English Speakers (who, remember, outnumber the natives 4:1)."the momentum.The most annoying verbal error for at least a couple of decades has been improper use of "I" (subject) vs. "me" (object). It seems that at some point in time, some group of people perceived the word "I" to be a more proper-sounding replacement for the word "me." Hence, we hear people say things such as, "Bob picked Tom and I for the part." Yet, those people would not apply the same error and say, "Bob picked I for the part."With regard to technical writing, one of several recent developments from the Far East completely redefines words. Take a look at ads and listings for frequency counters, USB testers, or other bare-PCB testers that have digital displays. The description will often state something like, "4-bit display" or "9-bit LCD" when they mean "4-digit" or "9-digit," respectively.I asked a sales person in China who worked for a company that made such devices when I saw the error in one of their brochures. His answer was that "bits" is what they call them. I explained that using "bits" instead of "digits" made his product sound inferior because four bits is much smaller than four digits, to which he replied he'd let the marketing department know. Of course, nothing was corrected in their materials.(Edited to eliminate an unintentional implication.)

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 04, 2019, 03:54:50 am
content: Quote from: bitseeker on August 04, 2019, 03:39:53 amI wouldn't be so quick to blame non-native English speakers for things like "it" and "it's" being confused. It seems native speakers struggle with this as much or more, perhaps because non-native speakers are more deliberately choosing their words and taking care of their grammar. Some of the worst and persistent butchering seem perpetrated by native speakers.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 04, 2019, 04:06:54 am
content: Quote from: soldar on August 03, 2019, 03:50:08 pmIt's sort of understandable. Considering the modifier verbs may, might, must, ought, should, could, would, shall and will, it is a lot to ask to understand where and how to use them.("You shall measure the voltage" is not wrong. It just has a slightly different meaning to "you should measure the voltage". Either will be understood.)

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 04, 2019, 04:32:01 am
content: Just a comment. Possibly is not the opposite of definitely. It wasn't clear in the post whether this was intended as a truth statement or another example of bad usage. Possibly is a stochastic word allowing for the event to occur, but also allowing for the event to not happen. There is not to my knowledge any customary usage indicating any numerical likelihood, though often it tends to be used for relatively unlikely events. Won't or never are more appropriate opposites of definitely.It won't happen. or It will never happen. vs It will definitely happen. Or perhaps simpler for non native speakers just use a simple negation. It definitely will not happen.This forum could be a vehicle for reducing or eliminating the most common source of this fractured English - the user manuals/data sheets of low cost products. These manufacturers usually don't want to pay a highly skilled translator as their price point doesn't support it. If members of this forum and other venues offered "free" cleanups of the original manual (or perhaps in trade for a copy of the product) it might over time become customary for people around the world to take advantage of the opportunity. It would presumably have a positive effect on sales. Exposure to these improved translations might also provide training material for the translators, improving their initial efforts over time.

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 04, 2019, 04:36:07 am
content: Quote from: IanB on August 04, 2019, 04:06:54 amIt is wrong if the intended meaning is something else, which is, obviously, the case.

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 04, 2019, 04:39:03 am
content: Quote from: Rick Law on August 03, 2019, 10:41:27 pm

author: Cubdriver
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 04, 2019, 06:07:02 am
content: Quote from: bitseeker on August 04, 2019, 03:39:53 amThat, and simply the feral apostrophe are ones that make me cringe. The Oatmeal has a good poster illustrating the use of the apostrophehttps://theoatmeal.com/comics/apostrophethat I have thus far resisted posting on other forums in response to several members who horridly misuse apostrophes, adding them regularly to words they're pluralizing, and then, perhaps more aggravatingly, then NOT using them when they should.QuoteAnd that one's so simple to detect - read it to yourself, dropping the other person. If, like your example of "Bob picked I for the part", it doesn't work, then it should be "me"! Soooooooo simple, yet so few seem capable of doing it.Homophones are great challenges to many, too - There, their and they're; to, two and too; break and brake... Again, not rocket surgery, but impossible for too many on forums for sure!Ahh, the joys of 'creative' writing. (The sad thing is that non-native English speakers often write better than those that grew up with it, perhaps because they're more careful.)-Pat

author: bitseeker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 04, 2019, 06:16:20 am
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on August 04, 2019, 03:54:50 amTargeting native vs. non-native speakers wasn't my intent. Now that you've mentioned it, I see how it could've been construed that way since I included Just_Understand_It's quote. Thanks for pointing it out. Even when you spell everything correctly, writing can still be hard.I've updated my post to hopefully correct the implication.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 04, 2019, 06:20:23 am
content: Quote from: soldar on August 04, 2019, 04:36:07 amMaybe you can give an example of a sentence where "shall" is wrong and "should" is right?

author: bitseeker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 04, 2019, 06:31:19 am
content: Quote from: Cubdriver on August 04, 2019, 06:07:02 amYes, that's a great one, especially the possessive being used when plural is intended. It seems to be gaining popularity.Contractions of more than two words, though, are interesting constructs that I haven't used as they're not common in my neck of the woods. However, I have heard them used in other parts of the US.https://www.merriam-webster.com/video/contractions-with-more-than-two-or-three-words-triple-contractions

author: bitseeker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 04, 2019, 06:40:17 am
content: Quote from: IanB on August 04, 2019, 04:06:54 amJust as difficult, if not more so, is determining which preposition to use and when. The meaning of a sentence can change in subtle ways just by using a different, but seemingly similar, preposition. I would be hard-pressed to come up with a rule for picking the correct one, but I'm not a linguist. To me, being adept at it is almost something you feel as a result of ongoing use.

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 04, 2019, 06:49:18 am
content: Quote from: IanB on August 04, 2019, 06:20:23 amMaybe you can bother reading the thread? Because I already gave several. Or should I retype them for your benefit?

author: Gribo
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 04, 2019, 11:37:45 am
content: A recent trend with user manuals is to define the meanings of 'Shall', 'Must' and 'Should'. Luckily, English is not French, there is no language academy to enforce the standard.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 04, 2019, 12:01:07 pm
content: Quote from: Gribo on August 04, 2019, 11:37:45 amWell, it shows.

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 04, 2019, 02:11:14 pm
content: Quote from: bitseeker on August 04, 2019, 06:16:20 amInterestingly, native and non-native speakers tend to make very different kinds of mistakes. Non-natives tend to succumb to false friends while natives tend to fall for misspelling homophones.A particular peeve of mine is using "impact" as a verb in order to avoid using "affect" which people have difficulty spelling so they just avoid it altogether by using "impact". I hate that (mis)use of "impact" and whenever I hear it I think "bad speller".A BTW comment about editing posts: In general I have a policy of not editing my posts after someone else has posted after me. I believe this is a good policy to follow because editing posts way back in the thread can make the thread confusing to follow for a latecomer. I prefer to post corrections in the natural order of the thread but if I absolutely felt I had to edit an older post I would make it clear it was a later addition and at what time it was made. I just think it keeps the threads clearer.

author: Cubdriver
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 04, 2019, 06:28:06 pm
content: Quote from: bitseeker on August 04, 2019, 06:40:17 amMy inclination in situations like that is simply to write "Measure the voltage."-Pat

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2019, 12:34:03 am
content: Quote from: soldar on August 04, 2019, 02:11:14 pmMy "pet peeve" is where (mostly) newsreaders say "ahead of" meaning "in the lead up to", or even just "before" ----aaarrrgghhh!There are still some quite correct words which have virtually died out:-When I was a kid, I did correspondence school for a while.Amongst (there's one, right there!) the lesson papers were some Maths ones where they used the word "shew", rather than the the more common "show".-----these had been printed in the 1930s!(As an aside, it was interesting to see how many State Government official papers used in the 1950s had been printed in the "thirties".Most had the first three numbers of the year printed, eg, "193", so the "3" would be slashed out & replaced by a "5".)Pesonally,whilstI don't make a fetish of it, I quite enjoy using semi-archaic words, .

author: bitseeker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2019, 06:37:51 pm
content: Quote from: soldar on August 04, 2019, 02:11:14 pmI agree and I generally don't make changes to an earlier post after someone has already referred to it. However, there are times when leaving a post as-is can be detrimental or causes recurring replies to the already corrected information because it's rare for someone to read an entire thread before commenting. So, what I do (and did with my post in this thread) in that case is use the strike through markup and add an explanation of the change in the edited post. That applies the fix in a transparent manner to minimize disrupting the continuity of the thread.

author: bitseeker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2019, 06:43:34 pm
content: Quote from: soldar on August 04, 2019, 02:11:14 pmSales and marketing departments add their own touch to that sort of thing. One (of many) such atrocities is the use of "ask" as a noun instead of "request." For example, "Do you have an update on when the asks from our meeting will be completed?"

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2019, 07:27:26 pm
content: This is #21 on this page of funny Tshirts.https://www.boredpanda.com/creative-funny-tshirts/

author: bitseeker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2019, 08:21:15 pm
content: To top it off, we say "math" over here, which adds another layer to it.

author: edavid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2019, 09:06:51 pm
content: A few things I have noticed lately:1. Confusion between "insulation" and "isolation" (which made me realize that the difference can be quite subtle)2. Calling any linear voltage regulator an LDO3. Calling any through hole part a DIPWe also have one German poster who abbreviates op amp as "OP". Does that make more sense in German?

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2019, 09:55:41 pm
content: Quote from: Just_Understand_It on August 03, 2019, 12:04:05 pmI'm afraid that the obvious conclusion from your introductory paragraph isnotthe rulebook you chose to follow up with, but rather: "Get used to it!"English is so popular because it is so simple, and because it still allows for working communication even if you mangle it and over-simplify it beyond what the rules allow. The fact that so many generations of immigrants and voyagers have "worked" on the language is probably a significant reason for its simplicity. I'm afraid that any attempt to preserve its subtleties, especially in everyday technical and practical use for international communications, is a lost cause.On the other hand, a notable English politician is just trying to re-establish "Esq" as the correct form of address for gentlemen, so maybe the dialcanbe turned back...

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2019, 10:06:22 pm
content: Quote from: soldar on August 04, 2019, 02:11:14 pmYou seem to see mistakes where there are none.https://www.merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/yes-impact-is-a-verb

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2019, 11:32:20 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on August 05, 2019, 10:06:22 pmNo.Youseem to see mistakes where there are none.Let me help you with your reading comprehension by parsing what I wrote:Quote from: soldar on August 04, 2019, 02:11:14 pmRead it carefully. If a law says "it is unlawful to do A in order to avoid doing B" it does not say it is always unlawful to do A. It says it is unlawful to do Ain order to avoid doing B.So, I never said there is anything wrong with using "impact" as a verb. Is that clear now or would it help if I drew a diagram?

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2019, 12:49:06 am
content: Quote from: soldar on August 05, 2019, 11:32:20 pmI'm not quite sure why you go on the offence in an unnecessarily grating fashion. It's probably safe to assume you can't read the minds of these people and can therefore not assess why they use "impact" correctly when they do. We could make up stories all day. Are you sure you didn't just learn "impact" is a valid verb?https://www.merriam-webster.com/thesaurus/affect

author: aneevuser
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2019, 07:25:22 am
content: Quote from: Just_Understand_It on August 03, 2019, 12:04:05 pmCan't this be expressed as "Das System erlaubt, dass die Frequenz gesetzt wird"? If so, then a non-native speaker may translate that into your "The system allows to set the frequency" if they're trying to avoid a passive form.Along the same lines though, you omitted one of the most common: "I have a doubt", which I guess comes from the Spanish "tengo una duda" but seems to be used widely by speakers of many languages.

author: blackbird
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2019, 07:33:54 am
content: This all does remind me of a time ´long ago´ (1993-1994) where I had to use a variety of 'English' documents.Few examples:Manuals for Rolls-Royce gasturbines (UK origin)Manuals for MBB Bo-105 helicopters (German origin)Manuals for Lockheed F-16 fighters (USA origin)When comparing some standard texts (usually in the first chapters) you could identify the country of origin.

author: JPortici
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2019, 07:52:00 am
content: Quote from: Just_Understand_It on August 03, 2019, 12:04:05 pmthis soundsveryarchaic to me even though it is certainly correct. It reminds me of the electrical machines textbook which were written between the late 50s and the 80s (i was in high school in the mid 2000s!)I'd rather write "Il sistema consente di impostare la frequenza" (at least i'm not writing "settare")Languages evolve, we can fight that as hard as we can but we can't stop it.I like this thread

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2019, 07:56:38 am
content: I believe that everyone writing technical manuals, datasheets and technical documentation should follow the rules set by:ASD-STE100It is great. I sometimes have to write, or correct such documents, and it helps a lot. These will be used by people all over the world, and I think mayority of the users are Germanic language speaking technicians.http://www.asd-ste100.orgThe standard is free to download. And to use.QuoteQuote

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2019, 08:45:34 am
content: I appreciate what the standard tries to do, but you can't force people to write well through a set of instructions. To some it comes naturally, some people learn by doing and seeing and some people will never learn.

author: Jeroen3
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2019, 09:20:48 am
content: I think you have hit the nail on the head with this topic. We are all malforming English into something it will never recover from.Often we complain about Chinglish, but we may as well be creating "Netherlish" while we're at it.That standard looks like a good resource. I write some of user manuals occasionally.Is that standard worth a read?I only followed English from 12-17, at university an entry exam made around 50% of the students exempt.Yet I have never heard of gerunds or participles before... Maybe I didn't pay enough attention?

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2019, 09:48:55 am
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on August 06, 2019, 12:49:06 amBecause you were correcting something I did not say. If you had read and understood what I said you would not have felt the need to correct what I did not write. Still, I apologize if I was too harsh.Quote from: Mr. Scram on August 06, 2019, 12:49:06 amNobody needs to read any minds to know when a word is being misused but I take it you are one of those persons who believe the verbs "impact" and "affect" are perfectly synonymous. They are commonly used that way and that is what I criticize. I guess you are one of the people who does it and that is why you can't see anything wrong with doing it.Let me provide some examples."A great variation of voltage at the input hardly impacts the voltage at the output." No!"A great variation of voltage at the input hardly affects the voltage at the output." Yes!The use of "impact" in that phrase is non-sensical."Her excessive alcohol consumption that night impacted her driving skills." No!"Her excessive alcohol consumption that night affected her driving skills." Yes!"Her excessive alcohol consumption that night affected her driving skills and when she impacted against the concrete wall her body had to be cleaned off the site with a hose and a mop."So, yes, there is a difference but many people use "impact" when the use of "affect" would be more correct.Quote from: Mr. Scram on August 06, 2019, 12:49:06 amAre you sure you are not a blithering idiot? Because if by now you still can't construe correctly what I posted I don't know what else to say. Or are you just trying to save face by not admitting you misconstrued what I posted? Because that would be truly idiotic.Sometimes I may post something that later needs some clarification but this is not such a case. My post is clear enough for anyone with basic reading skills and comprehension. It seems this is not your case and now you are trying to save face by intentionally misinterpreting my post.

author: bbrand67
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: August 06, 2019, 10:29:52 am
content: Well, you should maybe take a look at Merriam-Webster's definition of 'impact', particularly the section titled 'Is impact a verb?':https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/impact#note-1Regards,Bernd

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2019, 10:30:04 am
content: First you apologize for being too harsh, to subsequently use terms like "blithering idiot?"I didn't misconstrue what you posted, it just seems you overlooked it being an actual verb and are desperately trying to save face by falling back to the line you can still defend. I know what you pretend to have said, I'm just not buying it. Still not having given examples of what you consider to be correct usage of "impact" as a verb gives credence to that doubt. Or maybe you're just not the most effective communicator. I love how this thread has become a working example of the subject!

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2019, 11:22:49 am
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on August 06, 2019, 10:30:04 amOh, well, now you have removed any doubt I may have had. You just have no reading comprehension.Please read my last post as many times as necessary until you find a phrase with the correct usage of "impact" as a verb. (Hint: it mentions a hose and a mop.)I have no interest in wasting any more time on this issue. If you are convinced your interpretation of my post is the obvious and correct then I am willing to bet some money and submit the case to arbitration by someone we can agree on. Let me know to what extent you might be interested in a friendly wager.

author: GlennSprigg
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2019, 01:38:55 pm
content: Wow... It's ironic that 'English' (for a lot of Englanders) is spoken so 'gutterally', depending on the region.People always stir up us 'Aussies' for our 'drawl/accent', but we generally pronounce our words better thanthe Poms, especially from certain regions. You hear them talking of... "Bu-uh" instead of "Butter" etc etc...Most Americans, don't realize that 'their' language comes from English, before their country was populated,but they like to re-invent words, as if they aretheir own!!!If they invented something, then well & good!,but when they talk of "Sodder" instead of "Solder", (like Colder, holder, folder, bolder), they are WRONG !!NOT different, but just WRONG. It is NOT 'their' word to change. And don't get me started on Aluminium/Aluminum !!!Mind you, I'm as Shitty with 'some' Aussies too!!, especially from ourEastern States!!!!!!!!......Even on National Television, they say things like... "Beddaa Wardaa"... (Better water!!). GUTTURAL !!!!And to put some in "Heeooooh", instead of "Here"... (God, it kills me)... The poor kids there have no hope !!

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2019, 02:30:22 pm
content: Quote from: soldar on August 06, 2019, 11:22:49 amThanks for confirming what we suspected. "Impact" is the first synonym of "affect" that the Merriam Webster lists. The links have been posted but have been conveniently ignored. You have given an example where "impact" was a perfectly valid substitute for "affect" yet claimed it was wrongly used. "Her excessive alcohol consumption that night impacted her driving skills." is a valid sentence. Next you've posted the example "Her excessive alcohol consumption that night affected her driving skills and when she impacted against the concrete wall her body had to be cleaned off the site with a hose and a mop." Here "to impact" means "to crash into or impinge" but not "to affect".The hunch that you refuse to acknowledge "affect"and "impact" are synonyms seems to be confirmed at every turn. You're saying you concede they're synonyms but in practice you're still denying it. It's time to concede you overlooked the words being synonyms, as that's pretty obvious by now. Congratulations, you learnt something today. I guess we can safely say this thread impacted both your knowledge and your mood!

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2019, 04:02:46 pm
content: OK, acknowledged. I'm done.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2019, 04:33:18 pm
content: Quote from: GlennSprigg on August 06, 2019, 01:38:55 pmThe Australians often say budder.QuoteOn the contrary. US English is closer to old English, than British or Australian English. In many cases, the US variant is closer to the original form. For example, the way they say oo instead of u, so tube becomes toob, which is still common today in some parts of the UK, especially the older speakers, although it's slowly dying out.QuoteIn most forms of English the T sound is often dropped. In the UK you'll often hear bedda, was well as be-ah, but the latter is more common.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2019, 04:42:47 pm
content: Well anyway. You have to accept that different countries sharing the same language use it in slightly different forms.People in Quebec have slightly different french words and expressions for many things compared to France, and obviously different accents, same in Belgium, etc. We still understand one another. Well mostly.That's part of local culture. I don't see what's wrong with that really.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2019, 05:00:51 pm
content: Quote from: Jeroen3 on August 06, 2019, 09:20:48 amThat's OK. There are not many native English speakers that even know the word "gerund" let alone define it.It's a funny thing, but in the educational system I grew up with we did not learn much about grammar in English lessons, so my first introduction to rules of grammar was in French and German lessons. Only then did I learn about tenses, conjugations, participles, imperative and subjunctive moods and so on. It came as a surprise to learn that these existed in English too.

author: bitseeker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2019, 12:20:00 am
content: Likewise, I became adept at American English by way of Spanish classes. Then, the Internet came and I've been heading downhill ever since.At the same time, though, I've expanded my vocabulary with many dialectal synonyms from all y'all fine folks (not to mention recognizing many more country flags than I ever have before).

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2019, 12:39:34 am
content: Quote from: GlennSprigg on August 06, 2019, 01:38:55 pmWhere are you from, Glenno?"Eastern States" is a subjective term---- to "Sandgropers" like myself, it means "everywhere East of Eucla", but I have heard South Australians use it for Victoria, NSW & Queensland.Of course, folk from NSW & Queensland refer, in a derogatory way, to the "Southern States", when a quick look at a map would show them SA's Northern border is further North than that of NSW, & WA ocupies the whole Western third of the continent.So, even with impeccable English, people can still end up "talking crap"!

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2019, 04:18:06 am
content: Quote from: vk6zgo on August 07, 2019, 12:39:34 amI don't know the details of how Australia was populated, but here in the US those funny geographical relationships often have a historical basis. As an example, CASE Western Reserve University, in Cleveland. In today's world Cleveland is well onto the eastern end of the United States. But when the name developed it was on the bleeding west end of European culture.Those examples of how languages grow by accretion demonstrate the folly of trying to standardize a "correct" version. The usages develop because they serve a purpose at the time. Very few alive today would be happy to be forced to use the English of the Canterbury Tales.

author: bitseeker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2019, 05:22:23 am
content: Quote from: CatalinaWOW on August 07, 2019, 04:18:06 amWhich reminds me of the following:And for those who prefer text:http://www.todayifoundout.com/index.php/2019/07/how-far-back-in-time-could-a-modern-english-speaker-go-and-still-communicate-effectively/

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2019, 09:34:59 am
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on August 06, 2019, 08:45:34 amSure you can. This is what you need to say this to them:"You need to follow the standard, otherwise I'm not approving the document"Very simple. I'm working in an industry, which deals with electronics in explosive atmospheres (ATEX zone).If the technician messes up something, there is no upper limit to the damage it can cause.Literally, they could blow up an oil refinery, with the entire staff in it.So we make sure that the instructions are clear.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2019, 09:56:23 am
content: Quote from: NANDBlog on August 07, 2019, 09:34:59 amBut then, to Mr. Scram's point, you arenotdoing it simply via a set of instructions.Rather, you are adding one or multiple reviewers, who(a) understand the technical subject matter,(b) have a feel for language,(c) are experienced in structuring and presenting information in logical order,(d) keep an eye out for potential ways to misunderstand the draft document,(e) provide feedback on all of the above to the author.Ideally, the author will learn and improve over time, so the reviewers have less to do. Maybe he won't, resulting either in busy reviewers forever, or in a career change for the author...

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2019, 10:12:13 am
content: Quote from: NANDBlog on August 07, 2019, 09:34:59 amThey'll follow instructions and still produce barely readable documentation.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2019, 04:46:04 pm
content: Quote from: GlennSprigg on August 06, 2019, 01:38:55 pmGoing on again about Americans Glenn?

author: dnwheeler
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2019, 08:19:39 pm
content: The word "its" often seems like an outlier (a possessive noun without an apostrophe) until you realize it's part of a set:its, his, hers, theirs, ours, yours, whosenone of which have an apostrophe. The key is they are all possessive pronouns.

author: bitseeker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2019, 08:22:20 pm
content: Exactly. I've mentioned that on occasion and it does help folks to see the light.

author: Cubdriver
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 07, 2019, 08:35:32 pm
content: Quote from: dnwheeler on August 07, 2019, 08:19:39 pmLOL - fixed it for you.I've seen plenty of people online put apostrophes in hers, theirs, ours and yours. I find it annoying to read things with feral apostrophes scattered about.-Pat

author: bitseeker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2019, 08:54:26 pm
content: But they generally don't put an apostrophe on "his," so I use that as the example for "its." Many get "whose" wrong, using "who's," instead.I think I'd have a pretty hard time learning English as a second (third, etc.) language. It's such a mashup.

author: Cubdriver
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 07, 2019, 09:53:28 pm
content: And of course to illustrate the insanity of pronunciation in English there's the famous poem from 1922 titled 'The Chaos' written by Gerard Nolst Trenité:Dearest creature in creationStudying English pronunciation,I will teach you in my verseSounds like corpse, corps, horse and worse.I will keep you, Susy, busy,Make your head with heat grow dizzy;Tear in eye, your dress you'll tear;Queer, fair seer, hear my prayer.Pray, console your loving poet,Make my coat look new, dear, sew it!Just compare heart, hear and heard,Dies and diet, lord and word.Sword and sward, retain and Britain(Mind the latter how it's written).Made has not the sound of bade,Say-said, pay-paid, laid but plaid.Now I surely will not plague youWith such words as vague and ague,But be careful how you speak,Say: gush, bush, steak, streak, break, bleak ,Previous, precious, fuchsia, viaRecipe, pipe, studding-sail, choir;Woven, oven, how and low,Script, receipt, shoe, poem, toe.Say, expecting fraud and trickery:Daughter, laughter and Terpsichore,Branch, ranch, measles, topsails, aisles,Missiles, similes, reviles.Wholly, holly, signal, signing,Same, examining, but mining,Scholar, vicar, and cigar,Solar, mica, war and far.From "desire": desirable-admirable from "admire",Lumber, plumber, bier, but brier,Topsham, brougham, renown, but known,Knowledge, done, lone, gone, none, tone,One, anemone, Balmoral,Kitchen, lichen, laundry, laurel.Gertrude, German, wind and wind,Beau, kind, kindred, queue, mankind,Tortoise, turquoise, chamois-leather,Reading, Reading, heathen, heather.This phonetic labyrinthGives moss, gross, brook, brooch, ninth, plinth.Have you ever yet endeavouredTo pronounce revered and severed,Demon, lemon, ghoul, foul, soul,Peter, petrol and patrol?Billet does not end like ballet;Bouquet, wallet, mallet, chalet.Blood and flood are not like food,Nor is mould like should and would.Banquet is not nearly parquet,Which exactly rhymes with khaki.Discount, viscount, load and broad,Toward, to forward, to reward,Ricocheted and crocheting, croquet?Right! Your pronunciation's OK.Rounded, wounded, grieve and sieve,Friend and fiend, alive and live.Is your r correct in higher?Keats asserts it rhymes Thalia.Hugh, but hug, and hood, but hoot,Buoyant, minute, but minute.Say abscission with precision,Now: position and transition;Would it tally with my rhymeIf I mentioned paradigm?Twopence, threepence, tease are easy,But cease, crease, grease and greasy?Cornice, nice, valise, revise,Rabies, but lullabies.Of such puzzling words as nauseous,Rhyming well with cautious, tortious,You'll envelop lists, I hope,In a linen envelope.Would you like some more? You'll have it!Affidavit, David, davit.To abjure, to perjure. SheikDoes not sound like Czech but ache.Liberty, library, heave and heaven,Rachel, loch, moustache, eleven.We say hallowed, but allowed,People, leopard, towed but vowed.Mark the difference, moreover,Between mover, plover, Dover.Leeches, breeches, wise, precise,Chalice, but police and lice,Camel, constable, unstable,Principle, disciple, label.Petal, penal, and canal,Wait, surmise, plait, promise, pal,Suit, suite, ruin. Circuit, conduitRhyme with "shirk it" and "beyond it",But it is not hard to tellWhy it's pall, mall, but Pall Mall.Muscle, muscular, gaol, iron,Timber, climber, bullion, lion,Worm and storm, chaise, chaos, chair,Senator, spectator, mayor,Ivy, privy, famous; clamourHas the a of drachm and hammer.Pussy, hussy and possess,Desert, but desert, address.Golf, wolf, countenance, lieutenantsHoist in lieu of flags left pennants.Courier, courtier, tomb, bomb, comb,Cow, but Cowper, some and home."Solder, soldier! Blood is thicker",Quoth he, "than liqueur or liquor",Making, it is sad but true,In bravado, much ado.Stranger does not rhyme with anger,Neither does devour with clangour.Pilot, pivot, gaunt, but aunt,Font, front, wont, want, grand and grant.Arsenic, specific, scenic,Relic, rhetoric, hygienic.Gooseberry, goose, and close, but close,Paradise, rise, rose, and dose.Say inveigh, neigh, but inveigle,Make the latter rhyme with eagle.Mind! Meandering but mean,Valentine and magazine.And I bet you, dear, a penny,You say mani-(fold) like many,Which is wrong. Say rapier, pier,Tier (one who ties), but tier.Arch, archangel; pray, does erringRhyme with herring or with stirring?Prison, bison, treasure trove,Treason, hover, cover, cove,Perseverance, severance. RibaldRhymes (but piebald doesn't) with nibbled.Phaeton, paean, gnat, ghat, gnaw,Lien, psychic, shone, bone, pshaw.Don't be down, my own, but rough it,And distinguish buffet, buffet;Brood, stood, roof, rook, school, wool, boon,Worcester, Boleyn, to impugn.Say in sounds correct and sterlingHearse, hear, hearken, year and yearling.Evil, devil, mezzotint,Mind the z! (A gentle hint.)Now you need not pay attentionTo such sounds as I don't mention,Sounds like pores, pause, pours and paws,Rhyming with the pronoun yours;Nor are proper names included,Though I often heard, as you did,Funny rhymes to unicorn,Yes, you know them, Vaughan and Strachan.No, my maiden, coy and comely,I don't want to speak of Cholmondeley.No. Yet Froude compared with proudIs no better than McLeod.But mind trivial and vial,Tripod, menial, denial,Troll and trolley, realm and ream,Schedule, mischief, schism, and scheme.Argil, gill, Argyll, gill. SurelyMay be made to rhyme with Raleigh,But you're not supposed to sayPiquet rhymes with sobriquet.Had this invalid invalidWorthless documents? How pallid,How uncouth he, couchant, looked,When for Portsmouth I had booked!Zeus, Thebes, Thales, Aphrodite,Paramour, enamoured, flighty,Episodes, antipodes,Acquiesce, and obsequies.Please don't monkey with the geyser,Don't peel 'taters with my razor,Rather say in accents pure:Nature, stature and mature.Pious, impious, limb, climb, glumly,Worsted, worsted, crumbly, dumbly,Conquer, conquest, vase, phase, fan,Wan, sedan and artisan.The th will surely trouble youMore than r, ch or w.Say then these phonetic gems:Thomas, thyme, Theresa, Thames.Thompson, Chatham, Waltham, Streatham,There are more but I forget 'em-Wait! I've got it: Anthony,Lighten your anxiety.The archaic word albeitDoes not rhyme with eight-you see it;With and forthwith, one has voice,One has not, you make your choice.Shoes, goes, does *. Now first say: finger;Then say: singer, ginger, linger.Real, zeal, mauve, gauze and gauge,Marriage, foliage, mirage, age,Hero, heron, query, very,Parry, tarry fury, bury,Dost, lost, post, and doth, cloth, loth,Job, Job, blossom, bosom, oath.Faugh, oppugnant, keen oppugners,Bowing, bowing, banjo-tunersHolm you know, but noes, canoes,Puisne, truism, use, to use?Though the difference seems little,We say actual, but victual,Seat, sweat, chaste, caste, Leigh, eight, height,Put, nut, granite, and unite.Reefer does not rhyme with deafer,Feoffer does, and zephyr, heifer.Dull, bull, Geoffrey, George, ate, late,Hint, pint, senate, but sedate.Gaelic, Arabic, pacific,Science, conscience, scientific;Tour, but our, dour, succour, four,Gas, alas, and Arkansas.Say manoeuvre, yacht and vomit,Next omit, which differs from itBona fide, alibiGyrate, dowry and awry.Sea, idea, guinea, area,Psalm, Maria, but malaria.Youth, south, southern, cleanse and clean,Doctrine, turpentine, marine.Compare alien with Italian,Dandelion with battalion,Rally with ally; yea, ye,Eye, I, ay, aye, whey, key, quay!Say aver, but ever, fever,Neither, leisure, skein, receiver.Never guess-it is not safe,We say calves, valves, half, but Ralf.Starry, granary, canary,Crevice, but device, and eyrie,Face, but preface, then grimace,Phlegm, phlegmatic, ass, glass, bass.Bass, large, target, gin, give, verging,Ought, oust, joust, and scour, but scourging;Ear, but earn; and ere and tearDo not rhyme with here but heir.Mind the o of off and oftenWhich may be pronounced as orphan,With the sound of saw and sauce;Also soft, lost, cloth and cross.Pudding, puddle, putting. Putting?Yes: at golf it rhymes with shutting.Respite, spite, consent, resent.Liable, but Parliament.Seven is right, but so is even,Hyphen, roughen, nephew, Stephen,Monkey, donkey, clerk and jerk,Asp, grasp, wasp, demesne, cork, work.A of valour, vapid vapour,S of news (compare newspaper),G of gibbet, gibbon, gist,I of antichrist and grist,Differ like diverse and divers,Rivers, strivers, shivers, fivers.Once, but nonce, toll, doll, but roll,Polish, Polish, poll and poll.Pronunciation-think of Psyche!-Is a paling, stout and spiky.Won't it make you lose your witsWriting groats and saying "grits"?It's a dark abyss or tunnelStrewn with stones like rowlock, gunwale,Islington, and Isle of Wight,Housewife, verdict and indict.Don't you think so, reader, rather,Saying lather, bather, father?Finally, which rhymes with enough,Though, through, bough, cough, hough, sough, tough??Hiccough has the sound of sup...My advice is: GIVE IT UP!

author: Sal Ammoniac
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2019, 10:27:29 pm
content: Quote from: Just_Understand_It on August 03, 2019, 05:24:54 pmThis is one of my pet peeves. I'd say 90% of native English speakers get this wrong. I even see "its/it's" used incorrectly in places like magazines that supposedly have professional editors and proofreaders."It's" also means "it has", as in "it's been years since I've been there."A simple way to tell if you're using "it's" correctly is to replace it with "it is" and see if the sentence still makes sense: "The computer blew it's power supply" -> "The computer blew it is power supply". This is obviously wrong, so the correct word in this context is its, not it's.

author: bitseeker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2019, 11:09:06 pm
content: Quote from: Cubdriver on August 07, 2019, 09:53:28 pmReminds me of one of my favorite Gallagher skits on the English language (the segment related to issues similar to those highlighted by the poem starts @ 1:45):

author: GlennSprigg
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2019, 12:16:05 pm
content: Quote from: CatalinaWOW on August 07, 2019, 04:18:06 amHello there 'CatalinaWOW', first...I'm presently living inWestern Australia, but born & bred in the state ofSouth Australia. And I do believe thatSouth-Australians do speak relatively clear/concise English, compared to some other areas.Re: My mention of the 'Eastern States".... although maybe not 'geographically' correct, by that, wegenerallymean the states of Victoria, and New South Wales !! And, although I mentioned a few words, they are just that.A few!! Generally their pronunciation (on national TV!!) is clear & concise, but they ALWAYS degradecertainwords!(Butter, Here, Better, Water). I find it embarrassing sorry. SOME differences are just Pronunciation, & that's ok...Like... "Fil-um", (Film), or "Schooool" (School) . All Ok !! Then again......Quote from: joeqsmith on August 07, 2019, 04:46:04 pmNope!We all have a place in this wonderful & diverse Globe we exist on. But you need to understand about thingsbeing said "In tongue & cheek", and not a declaration or warI have many American friends, and they understand my 'stirring'. In all seriousness though, Americans DOlike to think that certain objects/words are their 'own', instead of just 'going with the flow'

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2019, 12:04:02 am
content: There are some pretty obvious reasons why Americans consider the language theirs. The fecundity of those UK exports was so amazing that we outnumber all others. I looked up some stats, and brought along a few fun ones. Along the way I found some newer statistics than the OP, and the problem is more real than originally stated. According to these stats nearly one fourth of the world speaks English (by some definition). And still only about a fifth speak it as a native language.In spite of all these stats I am more than happy to go along and get along, though in most of these cases majority usage tends to win out in the long run.I included the source data for those who want to try other ways of slicing and dicing the information. It comes from Wikipedia who source in from roughly 2015 reports.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2019, 12:59:58 am
content: Quote from: GlennSprigg on August 08, 2019, 12:16:05 pmGlad to hear you are in "dubyu-ayy," at the moment.Yeah, "Croweaters" are fairly understandable, even if historically you called utes "buckboards"!It has been my observation that West & South Aussies speak faster than people from NSW & Qld.In WA, we also have this habit of pronouncing place names as they are spelt.e.g:- Derby is not pronounced "Darby" & Albany is not "Orlbany".This extends to things like Football "Derbies", etc.Of course, some individuals have idiosyncratic pronunciation, like the late Sir Charles Court, who was fond of announcing that "The sssspinoffsss for Wessstern Aussstralia are tremendousss!" when speaking of some new project.QuoteWe do it, too, to some extent--- WA with "Derby" as I referred to above is such a case.(from what I've heard, most Americans pronouncel it the same as Sandgropers do)Interestingly, a lot of it has to do with "middle men" in the system who pronounce the "er" & "ar" sounds differently to either the original people in Derby UK, & those in WA.--- the result is people in various places pronouncing the "er" in that place name as the hard "ar" as in"car", rather than a softer, somewhat blurred version from its place of origin.Many "Anglicised" versions of place names from other languages show a similar effect---- some sound as if they were devised by folk whose native language was Welsh---look you!

author: bitseeker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2019, 04:52:14 pm
content: Quote from: CatalinaWOW on August 09, 2019, 12:04:02 amVery interesting. I once had a chat with a couple of guys from a little country in Africa. Unfortunately, I don't recall the name of the country, but they said that they had so many distinct local languages that English was used as a bridge language.

author: GlennSprigg
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2019, 12:05:34 pm
content: I loved & appreciated the recent responses. Maybe this will clarify/simplify my 'thoughts'......There is a HUGE difference between 'Accent', and simply saying it 'wrong'. The Country 'owns'the word. A German lady used to always argue with me, (here in Australia), that a main Beachside road here was an 'Esplanaid', because we have words like... 'Lemonaid'... I explained thatno, it is pronounced 'esplanaard', (Esplanade), because it's actually a French word!!!She would go berserk in frustration. (I was used to it xxx)But the MAIN issue between languages, is EMPHASIS on Syllables !!!. Even that word 'emphasis'.If you only said 1 word to someone, saying... 'emPHASis', they would be lost !!However, saying the single word... 'EMphasis' is immediately recognizable. I firmly believethat this is the major problem with foreigners speaking English.

author: 001
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2019, 04:14:50 pm
content: I`m not english speakerAnd I don`t know any local australian brands tooSo I thought that Dick Smith Multimeter translates as fucking broken-down multimeter literallyI thought it was forum irony

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 11, 2019, 10:20:57 am
content: Quote from: bitseeker on August 07, 2019, 05:22:23 amInteresting video.Given it's about the use of the English language, I've listened to the way he speaks, his accent and use of words. On the face of it, the casual listener will note his accent is mostly received pronunciation, which is true, but there are odd words and pronunciations which differ from standard British English. He uses the word gotten*, which nearly died out in British English about two hundred years ago. He also pronounces the T sound in some words where it would traditionally have been dropped, i.e. pertinent, Britain and omits it in others. This isn't criticism. The only thing I would criticise is, he speaks too quickly for many non-native speakers to understand.*Gotten is an interesting word. It's seen as an Americanism, but as is British through and through. It was nearly forgotten a couple of centuries ago, but is making a comeback.https://stroppyeditor.wordpress.com/2017/03/27/the-us-has-gotten-this-word-back-and-the-uk-probably-will-too/One quote in that article, sounds very American, but it's taken from a John Evelyn, an English writer.Quote from: John Evelyn

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 11, 2019, 04:50:53 pm
content: Quote from: Zero999 on August 11, 2019, 10:20:57 amI definitely wouldn't call his accent RP. I met someone who speaks in RP and it is quite distinctive, and is also very rare these days, mostly spoken by an older generation.Simon's accent is hard to place but it seems to be standard well-spoken English, what might once have been called "BBC English" before the BBC decided that was too elitist. You can hear a similar kind of accent from Lucy on the "English with Lucy" channel.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 11, 2019, 05:28:36 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on August 11, 2019, 04:50:53 pmHuh? Isn't "received pronounciation", "BBC English", "Oxford English" all the same thing?https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Received_Pronunciation

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 11, 2019, 06:37:41 pm
content: Quote from: ebastler on August 11, 2019, 05:28:36 pmWell, not quite. Wikipedia is generalizing the situation somewhat. What that article describes as "RP" is really just "standard British English". There is an accent used by a relatively small percentage of the population that might be more specifically called "RP", which you will rarely hear unless you move in the right circles. You can learn more about it here:

author: GlennSprigg
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2019, 01:12:38 pm
content: That last reply was interesting. One of the reasons, was that for my nearly 65 years hereas an Australian, I have NEVER even heard of the term... "Received Pronunciation"To me, it's just 'English', but without the posh overtones, or mouth full of marbles!!To help our overseas readers here, may I please enlighten you xox...So called 'Aussie' sayings like... "She'll be right Cobber" & "Cooee Cobber", famously(?)quoted by Aussies of yesteryear, with corks on strings bobbing off their hats, is like someAmerican today talking about "Gitt'n a possie together & head'n them off at the pass" isstill relevant to New York TODAY!!!My English step mom, as a kid, thought that kidshere actually rode to school on Kangaroos!!! We are a little bit beyond that now, and allkangaroos put out to pasture.I mean no disrespect to England, but to us 'Crow Eaters', (South Australians), we DO tryto be more correct in our pronunciation of words, than 'VIC' & 'NSW' who still seem to keepa lot of 'flatulence' in certain words, back to the 1st fleet. (Shirt off, waiting for whips now!!).When I was in England, I loved the Yorkshire/Geordie regions!! Their old phraseology wasactually cute !!!. I spilled something once, and asked where is the Mop. They answered..."In Bookit!!" (Bucket). They've decided to omit the word 'the' as superfluous in any sentence.But I don't mind that.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2019, 02:10:28 pm
content: Quote from: GlennSprigg on August 21, 2019, 01:12:38 pmYou know, that's not quite correct. What they actually said most likely was "In t'bucket". The word "the" is shortened to a very brief stop on the tip of the tongue, but you wouldn't hear it unless you were used to the accent.

author: GlennSprigg
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2019, 02:35:31 pm
content: Nope... There was NO 'silent' or lightly pronounced 'T'.... But that's ok

author: stevelup
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2019, 03:49:57 pm
content: Yorkshire born and bred here and can confirm that it's not unusual to completely miss out 'the', so it would sound like 'in bucket'. It's hard to explain but there's something between the two words. A kind of abrupt end to the 'n' of in, and a slight pause before bucket. But to add the 't' in there is a bit of a stereotype and not often heard.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2019, 11:25:21 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on August 21, 2019, 02:10:28 pmQuote from: stevelup on August 21, 2019, 03:49:57 pmThat's the "brief stop" that I was referring to. The "t" isn't voiced, but in your own words there issomethingthere.

author: GlennSprigg
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2019, 02:51:41 pm
content: Then again, when I was young, a Scottish mates Father said to me once, when I hadtrouble understanding him.... "Mook(muck)ya lugs man".......Which translated to.... "Clean out your ears out man!!!!"That's when it goes beyond 'Accent', and understanding a whole new language!!!

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2019, 03:23:20 am
content: Quote from: GlennSprigg on August 23, 2019, 02:51:41 pmThat's where terms like "buckboard" for "utes" (Pickup trucks to non-Oz players) becomes confusing.I know it seems to have died out, but my brother was trying to find a relative in a small South Oz town, back in the '50s, & asked a local shopkeeper if she knew him.The answer came :- "Yes! he comes to town in his buckboard a couple of times a week,"Bro was bemused by this, which raised the image of said "rellie" perched on a horsedrawn wagon, in the manner of Gabby Hayes in a million Westerns!Another story he recounted was riding in a bus, telling a story to a local in that same State.That worthy replied "Ring the bell!", so Bro did just that, & the bus came to a halt at the next bus stop, to the confusion of his fellow passenger.It turns out that "Ring the bell" was a local saying meaning "You are bullshitting me!" .No doubt, those special SA peculiarities have long gone, just like many WA ones.Ask a modern person what "the Groupies" were, & they will assume you mean rock group fans, not members of a fairly disastrous "Group Settlement Scheme" in WA.(It was pretty much a lost term when I was a kid, but there were still older people who knew its meaning).

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2019, 03:55:04 am
content: But wait!, There's more!When I went to the UK in 1971 for a "working holiday" (too much work & not enough holiday!), I spent most of my time in Southampton, which was pretty much a "melting pot" of English accents, & terminology.Many people there called their car a "motor"(for some, it was more like "mo-or").One bloke turned up at work one day & said to the Boss "I got my 'motor' out the front, what you want me to do with it?"Glancing out the front door, expecting a Morris Minor or such, I was confronted by a hulking great semitrailer (or in local jargon an " artic").It was funny coming in to work on Mondays & asking my Pommy mates:-"Wadjado on the Weegend?"The reply was inevitably :-"I went to the foo-ball, didn't I?"---- We understood each other!!!A bit of a digression:-These blokes were the most loyal fans of any sporting group I have ever seen.Week after week, they would follow the Southampton Saints, who were in one of the longest slumps in the history of the game!Many years later, they had a few very successful years--- I hope those fans lived to see it!

author: basinstreetdesign
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2019, 04:45:40 pm
content: When didONbecomeOFF?For my whole life (nearly seven decades) whenever something was the inspiration for something else , the latter was basedONthe first. For the past few years, almost everything written by a millenial has it basedOFFthat something.How didthathappen? I drives me nuts.

author: bitseeker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2019, 06:29:05 pm
content: It didn't...yet. But who knows how long that'll last.Merriam-Webster,preposition sense 7b of on: "used as a function word to indicate the cause or source." e.g., "profitedonthe sale of stock"

author: donkey77
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2019, 02:59:42 pm
content: I'm English, living in England with a Swedish wife (who incidentally has a far better grasp of English than I do). We see her brother and his family at least a couple of times a year and have been impressed with how well my nieces and nephews speak English, no doubt helped by all the time spent with their English cousins. Her brother was called into the school however, to discuss the eldest daughter, 12, who had told her teacher to stop teaching the class American English and kept correcting the teacher in front of the class!

author: GlennSprigg
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2019, 11:14:22 am
content: Quote from: vk6zgo on August 24, 2019, 03:55:04 amHaha... Yes the letter 'T' is shunned !! (I know, it may be silently/softly spoken..)I forgot to mention myLATEST 'miff-ness'when watching English shows, like 24-hrs Emergency.EVERY time someone is laying in the gutter, or in the middle of the road, or on the dirt somewhere,they say they are"On the Floor"?? !! What the hell?..."they are on the Ground!!"On the 'floor' means inside a house/building.. And we also hate the sound of the Englishtelephones when they ring on those shows!Sort of a wimpy Cricket-Call that fades inand out like a capacitor discharging into an already under voltage chirper?? Nerve grating!!Alexander Bell would be flabbergasted !!