Confused about PHEV, Hybrids, etc... - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: edy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2022, 03:11:52 pm
content: One of my colleagues recently leased an Acura 350h NX 2023. She was told by the sales rep that it will use all electric up to 60 km per hour. I said, "do you mean up to 60 km distance", and she said "no until driving 60 km per hour". I asked "what is the range, does it do all electric, is it a plug-in" and got a blank stare.My point is, I'm getting very confused about the mix of technologies now available in hybrid vehicles. It seems that we have a huge mix of modes and much of it seems to be minimally controlled by the user (which I guess is a good thing?).On the one extreme, you have your typical internal combustion engine (ICE), and on the other is EV all-battery vehicle. In between I thought there were essentially only 2 different hybrids... "HEV" and "PHEV". The HEV doesn't plug-in and essentially just figures out the best mix of power from the ICE and Battery and charges itself, and the PHEV actually lets you drive for a certain distance using all-battery and when it depletes it switches on the ICE to charge it and falls back to more of an HEV mode.What confuses me about the Acura 350h is that it does not seem to be a PHEV, but up to a certain speed it will operate only from the battery and if you drive slowly and not accelerate too much it will stay on battery only? I guess they didn't bother giving a range spec as it doesn't apply in this case, as it is not truly a PHEV. I don't know what kind of algorithms they are using so I was hoping someone in here can shed some more light on this.The PHEV is simpler to understand. It seems that if a user wants to travel under a certain range per day they could simply use their car almost like a full EV, and never rely on the ICE. However if they decide to go beyond the range and battery depletes, they can rely on the ICE to get them around (eliminating range anxiety).HEV mode is more confusing as there seems to be more going on regarding how the car actually balances between the two. Does it use the EV motors to accelerate only, to assist torque during acceleration, to keep it rolling at a constant speed? When are those motors active and do you really have any control over it? Can you actually drive the car so that you never use the ICE, or is going to be running no matter what as it needs to recharge the battery?

author: sokoloff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2022, 03:41:27 pm
content: I'm not familiar with that specific car (I wonder if it's actually a Lexus rather than an Acura), but I am shopping for and have done a lot of research on a different brand's PHEV.There's a limit of both capacity and power that would limit the distance you could go on battery (capacity) as well as the maximum speed (where power matches aerodynamic drag), so having a maximum speed limit spec makes sense.Integration between the ICE and electric motors is automated and relatively seamless in the current hybrids (and has been for years).The Lexus 350h is not a plug-in hybrid, but uses the ICE to charge the electric battery. Where the electric battery gets its charge is somewhat irrelevant to the hybrid driving experience. You have to run the ICE engine at some point to charge the battery, but while the battery is charged, you can drive it in electric-only mode. Some amount of people buy a PHEV and then rarely plug it in. This car works the same way as those cars, just with a smaller battery and no capability to plug it in.https://www.drivingelectric.com/lexus/nx-350hhas more info on this specific car.

author: ejeffrey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2022, 04:17:18 pm
content: The NX 350h is a Lexus, not an Acura, and it is a regular hybrid. The NX 450h is a PHEV.I'm not familiar with the newer hybrid systems, but if it is like the older Prius models it can can travel at low speeds (like in a parking lot) on battery alone but with no significant battery only range. Also, sometimes the sales staff will quote a number that doesn't mean much of anything: the maximum vehicle speed at which the ICE engine can be at zero RPM. This is given by the gear ratios and the maximum RPM of the electric motor. On the Prius this is in the 40 mph / 60 kph range. Again, this number is not terribly relevant -- the electric motor doesn't have enough power to maintain this speed on level ground. When coasting or going downhill at above 40 mph, the engine still must rotate but will do complete cylinder deactivation. The exhaust and intake valves are closed and fuel delivery is shut off. This eliminates pumping losses and overall the drag is pretty low.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2022, 04:47:17 pm
content: Toyota only makes a few PHEVs; the majority of their hybrid line up is the so-called "self-charging hybrid" which is a stupid, loaded marketing term that makes people think the car is better than one which needs to charge, but I suppose that's the awful genius of marketing terms.The Toyota hybrid architecture has changed over the years but the majority of these are based on some kind of power-split device. This allows the electric motors and engine to run simultaneously with the pairing of motors and planetary gearset acting as a variable-ratio transmission, and it gives these cars the "e-CVT" gearbox marketing name, but crucially these cars do not really have a CVT with all of its associated problems. The hybrid synergy drive is actually a rather clever architecture and it deserves praise for its simplicity and performance (as much as I think hybrids are becoming obsoleted by pure electric vehicles for most users.)QuoteWhen Toyota (not Acura/Honda) say the vehicle can run up to 60km/h on electric power alone they are in the technically correct but not really useful category of facts. Yes, the e-CVT/HSD architecture can *probably* get the vehicle up to 60km/h without engaging the engine, but since achieving that will likely (a) exceed the nominal acceleration limit for pure-electric mode (typically more than 20-30kW) and (b) likely deplete the battery sufficiently such that the engine must run to recover charge, that fact is really not that useful.The battery in these vehicles is typically of the order of 1-2kWh, with peak charge/discharge of around 25-40kW. Even in the most optimistic driving pattern you are not going more than 1-2 miles on a full charge, and the full battery cannot be utilised anyway (merely around 50% to protect its lifespan). And, even so, that battery must be topped up by the ICE, as you note, there is no way to plug the vehicle in. So even if it did offer pure EV mode, what would be the point? You are still burning petrol, just a few miles earlier. They do often offer an 'EV Mode' button in the car. I would not recommend using this, because you are just going to get 1 mile of pure electric mode, followed by a few miles more of the engine running under higher load to recuperate that charge. You would be better off just using the petrol-electric motor hybrid as normal, with the computer selecting the most appropriate mode given the acceleration, grade, temperature etc.Non-plugin hybrids offer pretty good economy when you use them as they are really intended for: stop-and-go traffic or city traffic. There is a lot of opportunity to recuperate charge there, which can allow the pure EV modes to work longer. However, many times they seem to be sold to people who do a lot of driving on the highway, and this might be where the 60km/h claim also comes into it. These people would be better with diesel or pure EV, but Toyota doesn't like marketing either.

author: edy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2022, 04:56:55 pm
content: Quote from: ejeffrey on July 26, 2022, 04:17:18 pmThanks! Yes it's the Lexus she was talking about.Quote from: ejeffrey on July 26, 2022, 04:17:18 pmSo the ICE is still mechanically coupled to the wheels via the transmission via some gear ratio, so it is actually still rotating the crank shaft and cylinders are pumping but empty (no fuel/spark), or does the ICE get disconnected from the wheels completely (like when the transmission is put into "Neutral" or like when a clutch is pressed down?).I wonder if some kind of "phase diagram" exists which shows the blend of ICE/electric contributing in different scenarios. Like a chart with one axis being speed/RPM, the other being torque or something like that, with areas shaded based on whether they are mostly ICE, mostly electric motor or both.There is also "parallel" and "series" hybrid configurations, where in parallel mode both ICE and electric motor can drive the wheels (coupled to transmission).... i.e. "electric motor assist", whereas in the series mode the ICE is used to primarily produce electricity for the electric motor system and not coupled directly to the drivetrain (essentially it is an EV with a small efficient ICE that runs only to charge the battery when needed). I'm assuming the second type (series) would be more likely to be in the PHEV type of vehicle.I'm sure at the end of the day the consumer doesn't really care what is going on under the hood as long as they see a fuel savings. Driving pattern will likely also affect efficiency. If I'm interested in purchasing a hybrid one day in the future I would also want to understand at least a bit about what is going on, but it seems there quite a number of variations now and algorithms that the vehicle uses to figure out what to use when.Quote from: tom66 on July 26, 2022, 04:47:17 pmThank you for the explanation, as well about the EV mode button and the way the battery is used. Then I am to assume this is a "parallel" type configuration and that the ICE/electric motors are both coupled into the drive-train and a computer can figure out the best times to use either and even do some fancy engine shut-off or cut fuel to cylinders (cylinder deactivation/CDA) when needed?My wife's Acura MDX is not a hybrid, but when we come to a full stop the engine will shut off completely. When you press the gas, it starts up again quickly and let's you move. it's a bit scary because there is a delay and I worry sometimes doing a left turn, if it shuts off how much lag will there be to start up again. Feels like those diesel golf carts.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2022, 05:10:50 pm
content: Here's a good simulator:http://eahart.com/prius/psd/The ratios will vary between vehicle models but it will show the rough idea. For cruising, the HSD system will essentially want to keep the engine at the most efficient speed, which is typically the lowest speed that will support the torque required. Net battery charge will be zero, MG1 and MG2 will have balanced power so the only losses are a little bit of heat in the inverter/motors. Under acceleration, the engine speed will necessarily increase (to both accommodate the increasing speed and the increased torque required) but additional torque will be input from the battery/EV system. Once up to speed, the engine loading will be increased to recuperate this charge, again ideally maintaining that most efficient operating point for the given load requirement.The vehicle will essentially act to keep the battery at around 50% SoC. If you regen a lot, e.g. going down hill, it will be able to use more electric torque later on to return the battery back to 50% effectively 'recycling' that energy. Similarly, if you drive with a lead foot and the battery goes below 50%, then it will use regen or engine charging to return it to 50%.

author: YurkshireLad
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2022, 05:11:33 pm
content: I used to have a Camry Hybrid and it could drive on electric at just under 60km/h, but only on a flat road and with constant speed. Typically I could drive on electric for, I'm guessing here from memory, almost 1km while crawling in stop/go traffic if I didn't press the accelerator pedal too much.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2022, 05:25:12 pm
content: Some other notes --Quote from: edy on July 26, 2022, 04:56:55 pmI couldn't say for sure about this Lexus but there are hybrids out there which have clutches to disconnect the engine, to improve efficiency. An engine, oil, and valves adds a fair bit of load that can be eliminated for coasting and regen. But how much benefit? Harder to say. It was enough for VW to add it to my car.Quote from: edy on July 26, 2022, 04:56:55 pmIn my experience (owning a VW plug-in hybrid and somewhat knowledgeable about other models of PHEV) the series-hybrid configuration is very rare. I think the reason for this is the double-conversion losses are excessive. Most PHEVs are parallel hybrids only. In the case of my Golf, the hybrid motor sits on the crankshaft of the engine and goes through the same gearbox as the engine's torque does. There is a simple clutch that disengages the engine when it is not required to reduce drag. The clutch slips as necessary to provide engine start as well, with the electric motor mapping in the extra necessary torque, without impacting the driving feel (the engine can and will start at 30 mph, and you don't notice it, it's all rather impressive in my opinion!)The Volt and BMW i3 REx are two examples of series-hybrid vehicles. For the Volt the architecture is much the same as the Prius but the engine *can* run in parallel with the motor in some cases - I am not an expert on the Volt so defer to others here. For the BMW i3 REx, there is only an electrical connection between the 25 hp engine/generator and the battery pack, so the vehicle cannot be powered by the petrol engine alone. This simplified the design at the expense of efficiency, but the REx was only ever offered as 'training wheels' for long distance trips, in case you needed to reach the next charger. It's no longer manufactured anyway.

author: edpalmer42
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2022, 06:04:07 pm
content: I own a 2020 Prius Prime Plug-In Hybrid.I accelerate to highway speed on battery alone. Acceleration is adequate, but not impressive. I drive at highway speed on battery alone. The battery is rated for 40 Km (~25 mi.) range, but that's more for around town driving. I think battery range on the highway would be less. Battery range will also be reduced if the battery is too hot, too cold, if you use air conditioning or heat, etc.The connection between the two electric motors, the gas engine, and the tires is pure gears. There are no belts, chains, etc. that you'd typically see in a regular CVT. By controlling the speed and direction of the two electric motors the computer gives you the equivalent of a CVT. The gas engine doesn't spin unless it's actually running and providing power. The hand-off between the gas engine and the electric motors is invisible. Unless I'm watching the display that shows energy flows around the system, I can't tell the difference. If I'm watching the display, I can see changes on a second-to-second basis. Sometimes the engine drives the wheels, sometimes it charges the battery, sometimes both, sometimes the engine shuts off and the battery handles everything. Sometimes the engine drives the wheels by itself, sometimes the electric motors handle everything, sometimes both the gas engine and the electric motors drive the wheels at the same time. The car decides what is most efficient at that moment.There's a Youtube video that explains the transaxle on the Prius and the Prius Prime.Overview - 25 min.:Deep Dive - 113 min.:Ed

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2022, 07:19:47 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on July 26, 2022, 04:47:17 pmNo. Diesel is expensive to run & repair (been there, done that) and emits a lot of pollution. An EV takes long to charge (with expensive electricity from fast chargers on top of that). I already ran the numbers and a Toyota hybrid offers the best economy for doing long highway journeys plus having very low emissions.

author: YurkshireLad
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2022, 07:27:58 pm
content: Hybrids are better around town than they are on the highway. If you're doing mostly highway driving, I don't think a hybrid is the best option. It's not bad, but I don't think you'll get the best mileage out of it. You're not doing enough braking to put energy back into the battery. I think I got my best economy on a single journey while driving up and down the hills in Vermont. I think it was something like 4.6l/100kms.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2022, 07:31:12 pm
content: That depends on the type of hybrid; the only hybrids to consider need to have a true Atkinson cycle engine. Such engines are much more efficient so even on highways, you'll get a much better mileage compared to a conventional ICE based car. Unfortunately there are only a few manufacturers that make such hybrids (typically with a drive train from Toyota).

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2022, 11:22:07 pm
content: Just for completeness, there's one category missing, the mild hybrid.These have thrown away the alternator and starter motor, and replaced them with a motor capable of moving the vehicle and being used as a generator. This is combined with a relatively small lithium chemistry battery - 1 kWh or less. So to start moving you use the electric motor, then the ICE is "bump started" once you're moving. They will have a small, low speed all electric range, but we're talking 10s, perhaps 100s of metres, not kilometres. Typically there's a small amount of regenerative braking as well, and the motor is obviously used in generator mode to recharge the battery. At the end of the day it's more of a re-working of the standard ICE engine's ancillaries than a true hybrid.

author: ejeffrey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2022, 11:41:20 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on July 26, 2022, 07:31:12 pmThis. The biggest efficiency improvement on traditional hybrids comes from using a more efficient engine and keeping it running in the most efficient operating range as much as possible. The battery and electric motor work to provide a torque boost to get more acceptable performance out of an Atkinson cycle engine and also to average out load a bit so that the engine can stay operating at peak efficiency more of the time. Regenerative braking definitely helps around town, but the car will also charge the battery from the engine while cruising if doing so keeps the overall system operating higher efficiency.As for mild hybrids: they are more like an improved stop-start system with a 48 volt electrical system so they can use an electric AC compressor. They hardly count as a hybrid -- while the motor can technically move the car it is a negligible fraction of overall traction power.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 27, 2022, 12:32:50 am
content: Quote from: Cerebus on July 26, 2022, 11:22:07 pmQuote from: ejeffrey on July 26, 2022, 11:41:20 pmThey might be stretching the term "hybrid" but a battery of roughly 1kWh is close to the optimum overall energy efficiency for interurban driving (not carting around more weight than required, it is unusual to have conditions where a car can use more than that from regenerative braking.Around town with lots of start stop and low speeds, pure electric makes sense.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 27, 2022, 01:02:19 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on July 26, 2022, 07:19:47 pmYes, you have extremely strong and blinkered opinions about what works for you, but dont mention all the constraints/conditions which make that true.Here in Australia (where diesel and petrol are almost identically taxed, no incentive either way there) a diesel car is cheaper on running costs as the maintainence has been shown to be no higher than petrol engines, either type of engine wears out well past the other drive train parts which are common to both. That's comparing identical models available in both engines, slightly higher upfront cost, lower operating costs. Which applies to hybrids, higher upfront cost for promise of lower operating costs.One of the auto associations here puts out a broad (but somewhat shallow) analysis:https://rac.com.au/car-motoring/info/buying-a-car/running-costsFor the typical 15,000km/year and mixed city/highway driving that normal people do, the life-cycle cost of any engine choice petrol/diesel/hybrid ends up lost in the noise. People need to be heavily biased toward/away from long distance highway driving, or much higher/lower km use for any difference to appear.

author: gnuarm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 27, 2022, 05:12:38 am
content: Quote from: tom66 on July 26, 2022, 04:47:17 pmHybrids are not being obsoleted by BEVs. They are different technologies for different purposes. A hybrid provides a similar experience to a pure ICE vehicle, while offering higher gas mileage. A BEV provides a total break from gasoline and the resulting potential for elimination of pollution.An ICE is like wearing a bullseye in a shit slinging contest. A hybrid is like being in the same contest, but wearing a poncho. A BEV is like sitting in the stands watching the bloody mess.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 27, 2022, 08:04:38 am
content: Quote from: Someone on July 27, 2022, 01:02:19 amWhere these 'running costs analysis' go wrong is by looking at the first few years only. Spending over 500 euro per month on a car? You've got to be friggin' kidding me. If you are going to look at craddle to the grave, you'll see an entirely different picture. It takes a very careful selection to find that car that has really low costs. The first step is to buy a used one which is 6 to 8 years old with around 125k km 'on the clock'; that way most of the devaluation has been eaten by the previous owner(s). The second step is to figure out whether the typical problems are simple (and thus cheap) to fix. Ofcourse it helps that I'm in a country where you can buy cars that are produced in Germany and are of decent quality to begin with.And diesel is just dead. Just because of the pollution associated with diesel it is not a good choice. In addition to that diesel engines have become extremely fragile and expensive to repair/maintain. Look at prices for replacing the particle filter for example and problems due to internal pollution of a diesel engine. My previous car was a turbo diesel from 1999 with exhaust recirculation (EGR). The latter caused a buildup of 1cm of oil and sooth inside the air intake manifold. It was difficult to get that cleaned out. Fortunately it was possible to close the EGR to stop sooth getting into the intake but you can't do that on modern diesels. At the end the fuel injection pump (Denso, not some kind of crappy brand) started to have issues. Currently I'm driving a car on gasoline which has far exceeded the mileage of my previous 3 diesel cars and is still going strong while being very cheap to run (around 21 eurocents per km). Again: careful selection. When looking for my current car I started with looking at diesels but quickly found out that these are prone to very expensive repairs and most cars for sale needed such expensive repairs.Currently I'm looking into a new (used ofcourse) car and I keep getting back to the hybrid Toyotas for the lowest cost per km. Downsized engines do offer a much better fuel economy compared to my current car but these are also prone to expensive failures or are just expensive to maintain (like 1200 euro for changing a timing belt which is buried deep inside the engine and needing special oil). Many cars just aren't designed to last more than 5 years and/or being maintenance friendly nowadays.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 27, 2022, 10:06:51 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on July 27, 2022, 08:04:38 amSo now you start to build out the picture of your throwaway unsubstantiated comment.... But sticking to claiming you know better than everyone else and your experience is 100% applicable to everyone else, which is isn't. Diesels are not more expensive to maintain, you found some outliers with your limited/narrow experience, that's not a universal truth and you're unable to fid any industry data to back it up. Oh and complaining about pollution while admitting you blanked an EGR? lol.I have friends and family in the motor trade, and know what their highly experienced opinions are (that need to be correct for them to make money), as with the auto clubs not much difference in petrol/diesel/hybrid as the free/open market is pricing them all pretty fairly. The second hand market quickly picks up on any unreliable models/engines and they're priced accordingly (making motor swaps a profitable business). Modern low emission petrols are now using most of the tricks that diesels were 10-20 years ago, and surprise surprise the whole world of emissions control systems failing and particulate buildup (rather than being washed out into the air) are affecting modern petrol engines roughly equally.Differences only appear for the outliers like: taxis spending all day in stop-start traffic (hybrids win easy), long distance travellers/commuters putting in 25,000km a year on the highway (diesel), or "grandma" going to church once a week for 1000km/year (petrol). Regular people are what the market is pricing cars for, and the open market works at levelling the lifecycle cost.

author: edy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2022, 04:53:37 pm
content: Thanks for all the discussion, it is helpful, I've learned a lot. I also found this video that is great at explaining some of the nuances between the different types of electrification of vehicles:

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2022, 05:29:44 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on July 26, 2022, 07:31:12 pmA 'true Atkinson cycle engine' is an entirely different animal and not something you will see in any modern car. Modern "Atkinson' and 'Miller' cycle engines are simply marketing designations for regular Otto-cycle engines with modified valve timing and higher compression ratios (as calculated from swept volume and combustion chamber size). Yes, these setups can be significantly more efficient at the cost of reduced power (for a given engine size) and limited operating range, but the name is just that and nothing more. Many modern engines, including non-hybrids, use variable valve timing and lift along with mechanical compression ratios higher than would be otherwise workable to achieve similar results under the right conditions.

author: gnuarm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2022, 06:06:05 pm
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on July 28, 2022, 05:29:44 pmIf you think modified valve timing does not produce a "true" Atkinson cycle, you aren't grasping the nature of the Atkinson cycle. The mechanics are a trivial detail. What is important is that the power stroke is longer than the compression stroke (or consider power and compression ratios, either way). The compression ratio is limited by the anti-knock properties of the fuel. So with a given compression ratio, the Atkinson cycle provides a longer power stroke, a higher power ratio, and more power from the same amount of fuel.The fact that the piston moves the same path for the compression and power strokes is not relevant. The valve timing makes the compression stroke effectively shorter than the power stroke, creating an Atkinson cycle.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2022, 06:41:59 pm
content: Quote from: gnuarm on July 28, 2022, 06:06:05 pmI fully grasp the concept of the Atkinson cycle and I don't want to debate the details with you and I don't know what you mean by 'power ratio' anyway. The actual result is simply that the exhaust temperature is lower, meaning more energy has been extracted than would be otherwise. However, none of that is my point--what I was pointing out is that many engines today use this general method of increasing efficiency but only a select few market it as an 'Atkinson cycle' or 'Miller cycle'. Therefore, IMO, making your purchasing decision based on whether the marketeers have attached this particular name to the product is not helpful.

author: gnuarm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2022, 07:14:08 pm
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on July 28, 2022, 06:41:59 pmWhat you described (or actually didn't really describe) in other engines is not the Atkinson cycle. The Atkinson cycle has a very specific detail, the compression ratio is lower than the power stroke (expansion) ratio. The point of it is to allow more energy to be extracted from the expansion stroke than with a regular cycle, specifically by using different ratios on the compression stroke and the expansion stroke. Anything else is not an Atkinson cycle.Other methods of achieving more power extraction may achieve similar results, but it's not an Atkinson cycle if it doesn't have the same features.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2022, 07:29:11 pm
content: If you look closely at the animation in this video from Toyota, you'll notice that the length of the strokes is different:https://sherbrooketoyota.ca/en/videos/atkinson-cycle-engineSo it looks like Toyota is doing more than just having different valve timing.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2022, 07:41:16 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on July 28, 2022, 07:29:11 pmLength of what strokes compared to what? Compression vs power on the same engine, like the original Atkinson cycle engine? That would require an insanely complex mechanism that I can assure you does not exist on any current common product. Now in general, these types of engines often do use a longer overall piston stroke than similar size/power 'normal' engines, but the movement of the piston is completely set by a rigid connecting rod and crankshaft.

author: edy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2022, 05:11:50 pm
content: What I saw in that Toyota video is that the cylinder heads move exactly in the same fashion and amplitude in all 4 phases of action (fuel/air intake, compression stroke, power/explosion/expansion, exhaust stroke). However, what I see happening is that in the early part of the compression stroke the intake valves remain open so that the cylinder is not being pressurized from the start... instead as the cylinder head moves up, because the valves are still open, it lets some of the air/fuel mixture push back out into the intake chamber area. Finally when the intake valves do close, the cylinder starts to pressurize, compressing but against a smaller volume of fuel/air. This reduces the effective "size" of the cylinder, as if a smaller cylinder is being compressed.I assume that part of the fuel savings is simply because it burns less volume on each stroke, you are taking say a 2.8 L engine and effectively only using it as a 2.4 or 2.2 L engine (for example). Perhaps the efficiency is also improved as there is more complete combustion of the contents of the cylinder since there is less fuel trying to completely burn up in the time that the power/expansion stroke occurs. Somewhere there must be a trade-off in power/torque and at what RPM, but perhaps a computer can figure out based on the speed of the car and what is required of it this is a worthwhile trade-off to milk a bit more efficiency out of the engine with nuanced valve timing.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2022, 05:18:38 pm
content: You have to account for the fact that the hybrid system improves the performance allowing for a less than powerful engine tune at the expense of lower performance which is supplemented by the hybrid system. The hybrid motor adds about 40 hp to the engine output under peak acceleration in the Prius; it adds 100 hp to my Golf GTE.Mostpeople don't need the full 100 hp from their vehicle for long periods of time (exceptions apply, yadda yadda, but this is generally true for most driving profiles) and this allows the use of smaller engines and/or less power-optimised tuning for these users.

author: gnuarm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2022, 04:00:18 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on July 28, 2022, 07:29:11 pmSorry, I don't see that and they don't talk about it.

author: gnuarm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2022, 04:09:37 am
content: Quote from: edy on July 29, 2022, 05:11:50 pmExactly, that's why this is not an accurate representation of where the advantage is.In reality, they would design a slightly longer stroke for the Atkinson cycle engine, which would provide a higher compression ratio, if it weren't for the different valve timing. So now the Atkinson cycle engine has the same compression ratio, but a higher expansion ratio, all with the same stroke length, but not the same stroke length as the corresponding Otto cycle engine.QuoteYou are comparing two engines based on the power stroke. Compare them based on equivalent (effective) compression strokes and compression ratio, and you get a different picture. Now they can have the same compression ratio, but the Atkinson with a longer expansion stroke to make it more efficient.

author: emece67
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2022, 08:44:58 am
content: .

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2022, 08:48:56 am
content: Quote from: emece67 on July 30, 2022, 08:44:58 amYes. And a lot of this is down to the relatively new obsession with SUVs. They have a place for people with large families, but the majority of people would be absolutely fine with a small to medium hatchback car, or an estate, which all have better aerodynamic profiles due to the small frontal profile and lower road position, and usually they weigh less.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2022, 01:49:10 pm
content: Quote from: gnuarm on July 30, 2022, 04:00:18 amI put the mouse pointer at the lowest point and at some point the piston doesn't reach it. But this could be an animation effect / artefact. Bottom line is that I have not been able to find whether Toyota Atkinson engines do or do not have different stroke lengths. I don't want to get into the mechnanical details; if Toyota uses it they probably found a clever way of doing this.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2022, 02:16:26 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on July 30, 2022, 08:48:56 amBig cars don't have to be inefficient. The new Sienna gets 36 MPG - better than some sedans!https://www.toyota.com/sienna/The EPA really should tighten up efficiency requirements. Toyota showed what's possible, no excuse for automakers to keep cutting corners.

author: gnuarm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2022, 04:17:01 pm
content: Quote from: emece67 on July 30, 2022, 08:44:58 amThere have always been plenty of small cars to buy, and this will always continue. If you can't find a small car, that's on you.QuoteCar makers have to sell the vehicles people want to buy. Otherwise they become another Hudson or Studebaker.QuoteHow about we simply put the responsibility on the people buying the cars. How about a tax on gross vehicle weight and/or frontal area, or even just increase the fuel taxes? A fuel tax gets right to the heart of the matter. To make it less regressive, we can offer a income tax credit for the first 280 gal (14,000 miles at 50 mpg). So buying a car with worse mileage than 50 mpg or driving more than 14,000 miles, incurs the tax. It also equates to a credit to drive less than 14,000 miles or getting better than 50 mpg.

author: emece67
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2022, 04:47:01 pm
content: .

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2022, 04:48:01 pm
content: @gnuarm:The EU already has limits for the average CO2 emissions for all cars sold per manufacturer. Toyota is the only manufacturer meeting the requirement without needing to sell BEVs to compensate because they are the only manufacturer that actually foresaw the future right (and develop hybrid cars). The rest of the manufacturers just screems 'jobs get lost if you add more regulations!' and hope the politicians will swing their way. In the end that isn't going to hold up.And no, you can't leave it to consumers! People say they like to take action but the reality is that they would like to see other people take action. The government needs to be the driving force behind making cars more efficient and more clean while keeping mobility affordable.Small cars get more rare as well (at least in the EU). Manufacturers are pulling out of this market because the margins are too thin. 10 years ago you could buy a car for 8000 euro. Nowadays the same car costs twice as much due to stricter safety regulations and emission requirements. For example: Citroen and Renault used to have a tiny car but they don't sell it any longer.Fuel taxes aren't the answer either. This has been tried in the NL and it doesn't work. Only drives up inflation. So the NL government is taxing purchase prices of cars based on fuel consumption. For some cars that tax is several times the price of the car (a Lada Niva with a list price of 12k euro ends up costing 47k euro including taxes).

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2022, 04:57:43 pm
content: The EU regs seem pretty effective if the goal is electrification of vehicle fleets. We wouldn't have the ID.3 without dieselgate fines and EU regulations. So I think it's still a good thing that they're there.And hybrids are a technology that is going to rapidly die out as larger capacity EV batteries become more common. 58kWh is standard in the ID.3, prior to the chip shortage that was a 26,000 GBP car, not much more than a standard Golf of similar trim. That battery will do over 200 miles. I doubt that most people will pay a lot extra to avoid one charging stop, but we'll see.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2022, 05:02:14 pm
content: Again, you are not counting in public charging costs which make BEVs an uneconomic choice for many. Hybrids will be here to stay for the next several decades in larger numbers compared to BEVs simply because hybrids are more economic to drive in.Rest assured that public charging prices will go up when the investors in charging infrastructure (none of them is making a profit at this moment!) start wanting to see return on their investment. After that governments will step in to regulate prices. Just look at how mobile phone operators used to charge an arm & leg for certain services and now got clamped down by governments to charge fair amounts for their services.

author: gnuarm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2022, 05:13:49 pm
content: Quote from: emece67 on July 30, 2022, 04:47:01 pmQuoteThis is what I responded to. You seem to be saying there are no smaller car, but that they keep making larger cars. Now you seem to think a car should weight less than 2,000 lbs (or maybe thats 1,000 kg, a metric ton). Not sure what you are expecting.QuoteSounds great. So build the cars you want to force on people. I'll wait while you try that.QuoteYou don't seem to understand fuel taxes. Or maybe they are different where you are. Here, in the US, they are based on the gallons you burn. If you drive more or drive a less efficient vehicle, you pay more tax. My understanding is fuel taxes are much, much higher in the EU and it very much impacts the choice of cars.

author: gnuarm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2022, 05:15:07 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on July 30, 2022, 04:48:01 pmOk, I guess we are all doomed!

author: gnuarm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2022, 05:19:29 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on July 30, 2022, 04:57:43 pmHybrids and BEVs are completely different animals. Hybrids reduce fuel consumption, but do little for carbon emissions, because "reducing" emissions are pointless when we need to get to zero! Hybrids have never been about anything other than saving money spent on fuel.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2022, 05:27:07 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on July 30, 2022, 05:02:14 pmNot really my experience. Even the most expensive public charging has been cheaper than petrol here. And of course if you can charge at home on your drive or similar you can take advantage of very cheap domestic rates in the off peak. Even with the current energy hikes I'm still paying about 2 pence per mile for my PHEV when on electric - that's around 8x cheaper than petrol is per mile.What we need is more 'slow charging' infrastructure for people parking on streets, it's just as vital as rapid chargers to enable mass EV adoption. And these chargers would incentivise overnight charging for those who don't need priority charging.Quote from: nctnico on July 30, 2022, 05:02:14 pmLike all markets, there will be an inflection point at which competition and demand keeps prices low. Your argument makes no sense, as otherwise petrol stations could charge as much as they like.For Ionity for instance you can already get a membership with e.g. Bonnet EV which gets rates at under 40p/kWh, not much more than a domestic daytime electric tariff right now costs. I think these membership schemes will end up being part of your domestic energy tariff eventually, you will pay for home and away electricity from the same provider.

author: gnuarm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2022, 05:27:34 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on July 30, 2022, 05:02:14 pmEven when charging a pay chargers, BEVs save a lot of money compared to gas. In reality, BEVs are not about saving money. That's just a nice side effect. What is important is eliminating carbon emissions. It is essential, in fact. That's why we also need to invest heavily in renewable energy sources to complete the process. Hybrids will NEVER do anything but slightly reduce carbon emissions, which is ENTIRELY pointless.QuoteCell phone providers are regulated??? I think you need to check again. Well, maybe you are someplace other than the US. I only know about the US.BEV charging is not very expensive. Mostly it is done at home. With time, every apartment, condo and detached home will provide charging at nominal rates, or even include it as part of the overall cost, just like parking. Average miles driven is 40 or 10 kWh. In the US, that mostly ranges between less than a dollar, to $2.50 per day. It's not going to break anyone. They can raise the rent $50 a month and you'll save $150 a month on gas.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2022, 06:36:06 pm
content: @gnuarm: the situation in the EU is different compared to the US. Prices are very much regulated. With today's high oil prices, governments across Europe are cutting taxes on fuel in order to maintain low price levels so people can afford to go to their work and keep their homes warm.And please don't move the goal posts by bringing in 'charging at home' when I explicity state 'public charging'. Just do the math for people that have to rely on public charging exclusively and you'll see a hybrid wins hands down on 'fuel' costs.Fuel from oil isn't going away overnight so franticly going after electric cars and trying to shoehorn BEVs as a universal solution isn't going to work. There is a market segment for which BEVs work well at this point in time. For the remaining market, hybrids are currently the best solution. Looking at the trends, hydrogen looks to become the new oil so who knows what the future will bring. It might as well be that BEVs go away and cars will move towards FCEVs (fuel cell -typically hydrogen powered- electric vehicle). Even today a FCEV would be more economic to drive compared to a BEV when needing to rely on public charging.

author: emece67
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2022, 06:44:11 pm
content: .

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2022, 10:03:49 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on July 30, 2022, 06:36:06 pmIf your 'public' EV charging is actually a privately owned for-profit enterprise while the H2stations are highly subsidized, then that is probably true. But the problem is easily solved by making the public charging universal and free, or else subsidizing at least the delivery systems so that the end user pays roughly the cost of the electricity. Gas-hybrids wouldn't work very well either if there weren't fuel stations.b/t/w, how many H2stations are there in the EU?

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2022, 10:24:44 pm
content: FCEV is not cheaper - that's bollox.Hydrogen at a filling station is £14 per kilogram, about the same in EU, if you can find somewhere to refuel.And you can't refuel at home, so you had better live somewhere near a refuelling station - but let's pretend you do and you don't mind the inconvenience of this - unlike at least with petrol where the infrastructure is common.A Mirai is rated around 60 miles per kg, so one mile will cost 23p. In euros, roughly 28 cents. Average UK petrol price is £1.75/L right now and a typical car might get 50 mpg or about 4.7L/100km so the same distance on petrol is about £8.20 - 75% the cost of hydrogen even considering the inflated cost. A diesel car might push 60 mpg, 3.9L/100km (~£1.90/L around here right now) = £7.41 for the same journey. If it's an EV, getting 3.5 miles per kWh, the cost-parity with hydrogen is only reached at a fast charger costing 80p/kWh, and with diesel around 43p/kWh. Ionity charges up to 69p/kWh for non-members, but as mentioned before which you so conveniently ignore,most people do not pay this. The average rate is closer to 40p/kWh. That's *still cheaper* than diesel for an entirely unusual scenario of no AC charging and no home charging.So even relying purely on fast-dc charging, the BEV is half the price of the FCEV. If it can be charged at home (which roughly 50% of people can do with just a home charger install) then the BEV is around 1/10 to 1/20th the cost and with no inconvenience of having to find fuel all the time, petrol or hydrogen.https://cafcp.org/content/cost-refill(US price, but it should be cheaper than the UK)

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2022, 10:44:07 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on July 30, 2022, 10:24:44 pmI think that is one of the two real questions for most people, the other being the cost of a car. Even in todays inflated market, you can find (here at least) a decent used car for $10-12K that will go 500 miles between trips to Costco for gas. A BEV with home charging eliminates those trips, which is really nice, but a reasonable range BEV (it doesn't have to be 500 miles, 150-200 is good enough) will be at least 3-4X that new and there aren't many used. Without home charging, its hard to see the point.

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 31, 2022, 12:08:57 am
content: Quote from: tom66 on July 30, 2022, 05:27:07 pmFTFY.In some cases it's the same thing, but with the amount of PV on the grid nowadays it's not the case that overnight now always represents the cheapest or 'greenest' electricity.

author: gnuarm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 31, 2022, 06:36:34 am
content: Quote from: emece67 on July 30, 2022, 06:44:11 pmIf you don't want to discuss reasonably, that's fine."Fuel taxes exist now and are useless, as they tax equally small and big cars,"This is what I was responding to. Do you have some special fuel tax that taxes every vehicle the same, no matter how much fuel it uses? I would say that's not afueltax.

author: gnuarm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 31, 2022, 06:44:51 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on July 30, 2022, 06:36:06 pmOk, then it costs a lot to have your car transported to other countries overseas. That's about as relevant as talking about paying for "public charging", because very few people do it.QuoteYou exaggerate and create a strawman.BEVs will work as a largely "universal" solution once they are in place in numbers that will encourage appropriate charging to be built for charging AT HOME or AT WORK.QuoteWhat is this "remaining market"Hybrids don't compete with BEVs, because they are inherently linked to producing carbon pollution. You can't solve the carbon problem with hybrids. That's not what they do. They simply save people money on fuel, but much less so than BEVs. When petroleum is cut off for whatever reason, BEVs won't go very far.QuoteHydrogen has literally no future for cars. The issues are numerous. You again talk about public charging as being hugely expensive. Is charging in your country $10 per kWh? I know FCEVs are not that insanely expensive to run, but they are around 10X the cost of electrons in the US.

author: gnuarm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 31, 2022, 06:50:57 am
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on July 30, 2022, 10:44:07 pmIf you want to buy a used BEV, what is stopping you? There are lots of used BEVs in the US for $10k. They are typically Nissan Leaf or similar, but can easily go more than 100 miles on a charge, potentially 150 even.Then there is the issue that you are judging BEVs on what is available today. Other than a few such as the Leaf, the only vehicles with 150 to 200 mile range are the Bolt and the Tesla Model 3/Y. The Teslas have not been on the market long enough to be $10,000 cars. You might be able to pick up a $10,00 Bolt, not sure. But give it another 5 years and there will be a lot more used BEVs with 200 mile range.So don't buy one now. Wait for the right price. Even the new ones will be dropping in price as the competition heats up in the next few years.

author: gnuarm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 31, 2022, 06:53:51 am
content: Quote from: Cerebus on July 31, 2022, 12:08:57 amThat's true. California sees regular surpluses of electricity from solar generation during the day. That's why we need to promote charging at work!BEVs are a natural complement with intermittent renewables. They don't need to be charged every day. They can be charged when the power is available and then driven for up to a week!

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 31, 2022, 07:45:04 am
content: Exactly. A typical car is parked up for 95% of the time. If it's plugged in, it can absorb electrons whenever there's a surplus.Used EVs will probably retain their value for longer than expected because the maintenance is less and the batteries are lasting long. Leaf's are only as cheap as they are because their batteries are crap.As an example, my PHEV has barely dropped in 'value' compared to equivalent models over the last 3.5 years. That's true even before the chip shortage made it harder to buy cars. So unfortunately those hoping to buy a cheap EV on the used market, may be disappointed. Demand is high and supply is low.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 31, 2022, 09:07:36 am
content: Quote from: gnuarm on July 31, 2022, 06:44:51 amAnd the reason very few people do it is because it makes a BEV too expensive compared to a hybrid. That is the simple reason; no need to dream up all kinds of future scenarios that don't take away the primary issue: charging infrastructure is too expensive. Do you really think charging at work stays for free forever?Over here prices for public charging go from about 50ct (slow charging) to 80ct (supercharging) eurocent per kWh with no guarantee these prices won't increase a lot due to investors in public charging wanting to see an ROI. OTOH: the current crisis has shown that governments in the EU cap gasoline prices to around 1.60 to 2.0 euro per liter.A BEV needs 200Wh per km as a year round average when it is not used as a inner city roundabout (which could easely be replaced by a much more efficient electric bike).So the BEV sets you back 12.5 to 16 ct per km.A hybrid easely reaches 5l / 100km which sets you back 10ct per km (assuming the fuel price is 2 euro per liter).

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 31, 2022, 09:51:00 am
content: -MHEV: Just a beefed up starter motor, 48V battery, 0km range. The electric motor is used to reduce consumption, and the ICE is always on. The best benefit of these is being able to cheat on taxes.-"self charging hybrid" (I hate that term as well): ~300V battery, 2km range, cannot be charged from the wall. The ICE is shutdown about 30% of the time in normal use, fuel efficiency is very good, 4-5L/100KM, compared to the 7-8L for similar sized car. Most Toyota, Lexus is this category.-PHEV: Plugin hybrid. Goes 20-50KM on a charge from the wall. The ICE can drive the wheels.-REX PHEV: This is BMW i3, i8 and Opel Ampera others. The wheels are driven only by an electric motor, range is limited to ~50KM or so. There is electric generator and a ICE completely separate from the drivetrain, to charge the battery. The i3 motor is like 600cc, and comes from a motorbike AFAIK.-BEVQuote from: gnuarm on July 30, 2022, 05:19:29 pmThat's so wrong on so many levels. The toyota prius has 200x less NOX emissions than those Diesel VW. And in many countries it is greener to drive a hybrid than an ICE just because where that electricity is coming from.But look at it another way. Battery manufacturing capacity is not unlimited. If you can choose to build 1 BEV and save 100% emissions of one car, or build 30 hybrid, and save 30% emissions of 30 cars, which one is better?

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 31, 2022, 10:15:44 am
content: Comparing electric vehicle TCO by comparing the cost per mile with highway supercharging is like complaining petrol cars cost a lot to run if you only fill them up at highway service stations that charge 50% more than anywhere elseLike, no one who owns a BEV who has any kind of sense would do that, so stop with this argument, it's stupid. We get it, you can construct a use case for BEVs being more expensive. You would be foolish to use a car like that, just like you'd be foolish to buy a hydrogen car... well, in general, but especially if you did not live near refuelling infrastructure.The most I have ever paid for AC electricity was 35p/kWh. When I had an i3 for a few weeks, I paid max 38p/kWh once, to charge up off a motorway. All other times, I charged at home or on street charging at half that or even less. Still, I can get overnight electricity for 1/4 daytime rates.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 31, 2022, 02:12:12 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on July 31, 2022, 10:15:44 amUnfortunately for me the utility here has convinced regulators to do away with reasonably priced nighttime power so my lowest cost at home is 31 cents/kWh. My BEV averages 239Wh/mile, so 7.5 cents per mile. At $5/gal for gasoline, a hybrid would have to get 67mpg to match that. It is getting to be a close call with our high rates, and if electricity was any more expensive a less-efficient BEV wouldn't be looking so good.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 31, 2022, 03:20:10 pm
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on July 31, 2022, 02:12:12 pmThe difference is that one could easily generate their own electricity using solar panels or wind turbines. Making gasoline at home is not anywhere as easy or practical.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 31, 2022, 03:54:37 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on July 31, 2022, 10:15:44 amGood for you. Over here prices for charging are much higher -according to the websites of companies that provide public street and highway charging services-.

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 31, 2022, 04:21:12 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on July 31, 2022, 09:07:36 amBEV costs are only higher than hydrocarbons in the specific, narrow scenario that you pick. In every other scenario they are cheaper.My PHEV has used two, repeat two, tanks of gas this year (82L). All the other mileage has been done on electricity, mostly charged at home at £0.208/kWh, a little free at supermarket public charging points (10-20 kWh), and one, repeat one, top up charge at a public point that I had to pay for (£1.05 @ £0.28/kWh) done purely to try out the infrastructure. I have spent a fraction of what I did last year running a small, efficient car on petrol aloneandI've done proportionately higher mileage.In pretty much any scenarioother than your carefully picked one, BEVs and PHEVs cost less to run.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 31, 2022, 04:29:10 pm
content: Quote from: Cerebus on July 31, 2022, 04:21:12 pmLet's be fair here, even with those whom we disagree. The situationnctnicodescribes isn't one he dreamed up to discredit BEVs, it just happens to be his real situation. BEVs and PHEVs work for me and apparently for you, but they aren't for everybody. Even here an urban apartment dweller might struggle quite a bit with a BEV. A significant number of BEV buyers have given up and gone back to gas.Another non-trivial issue--our BEV just had its battery replaced under warranty 7.5 years into an 8 year warranty. If the problem (leak) had occurred at 8.5 years, I'd likely be burning gas as well at this point.

author: gnuarm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 31, 2022, 08:59:07 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on July 31, 2022, 09:07:36 amI don't know why you can't grasp the concept that charging a BEV doesn't need to be expensive. There is no need to use "public charging". Charge at home or charge at work. Even if charging at work is not free, there's no reason for it to be overly expensive.I don't know what you have read that makes you think this is a huge problem, but waving your arms over you head and shouting "public charging" doesn't make it a problem.QuoteAs with all things, supply and demand set the price. I don't know what your kWh of electricity costs, but that would be the floor.QuoteLOL!!! I want to see your population on bikes. People here don't like being rained or snowed on.QuoteElectricity price varies a lot in the US, but it's seldom over $0.06 a mile or ~$0.04 a km. My cost is $0.03 a mile and I drive a model X, an electron guzzler. I think your problem is in your expensive electricity. Maybe you should look into that?QuoteYup, you definitely have an electricity price problem. Hybrids only reduce the cost of fuel. They will never address the pollution issue. So they are not comparable to BEVs.

author: gnuarm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 31, 2022, 09:04:59 pm
content: Quote from: tszaboo on July 31, 2022, 09:51:00 amIt's not at all wrong. It's a fact.QuoteQuoteA false dilemma. We will build all the BEVs we want as people adopt them. Presenting false arguments do not help. Carbon emissions is a long term game. We will be supplying half the US auto production as BEVs in just five years. I can't say what people will do who believe hybrids are the way forward.

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 31, 2022, 09:15:44 pm
content: Quote from: gnuarm on July 31, 2022, 08:59:07 pmNctnico is talking about the Netherlands which is famous around the world for the amount of cycling done there, except apparently in your neck of the woods. They have 1.3 bicycles for every human being and 27% of all journeys are made by bike.

author: gnuarm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 31, 2022, 09:36:43 pm
content: Quote from: Cerebus on July 31, 2022, 09:15:44 pmI suppose the distances make that possible. I'm a couple of miles from the closest little country store around here and 25 miles from a real city with places where I can buy food. The roads would be a death trap for anyone on a bicycle, on top of dealing with ugly weather like today. No, we don't have many people using bikes.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 31, 2022, 09:53:00 pm
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on July 31, 2022, 04:29:10 pmAgreed, but the scenario depicted is not really that realistic. It suggests that the car would always need to be DC charged, there is never an opportunity while parked to AC charge. In reality, the average car gets 5% usage and is parked somewhere else for 95% of the time.I am not all that familiar with the charging network in the Netherlands but did find that Amsterdam and other large cities are covered in AC charging (after all, this was Tesla's biggest market, or pretty close to it, a few years ago). I found this resource that suggests the majority of AC charges are EUR0.39/kWh or less - about the same as the UK.https://help.evbox.com/s/article/What-are-the-charging-fees-of-EVBox-roaming-partners?language=en_USThat's still at parity or cheaper than fuel - and ignores other TCO benefits of EVs like reduced servicing needs and lower congestion/pollution fees/taxes.Do we need more on street charging - absolutely... this is infrastructure that pays for itself, even if only charged at 0.05 EUR over the cost of electricity. Example: if the average post dispenses 7kW and is used overnight for 6 hours and in the day for 6 hours, then that's 1500 euros a year in profit alone for the operator. The install cost and maintenance is easily paid for within 10 years (especially if 10+ of these are installed at once). For a fast charger dispensing 50kWh per hour (ok weird units) in say 12 hours then it's making 30 euros per day alone at that margin - so has a 5yr or so payback time. BUT crucially this infrastructure only works when there is high EV usage. It is not profitable if there are only a few % of users and posts get little use.We are in that early stage where it is still a bit chicken and egg - providers are still a little nervous about massively scaling up because they're worried the demand won't follow (and EV sales have surged but a little slower because of chip shortage issues reducing supply) - which is pushing prices a little higher than ideal. I expect they will fall in the longer term, because competition waits for no man. But, it's getting there; I've had my PHEV for almost 4 years now, and this is probably the best year to own an EV of any kind, so much more infrastructure, and I can't even take advantage of a lot of it because my car doesn't DC charge.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2022, 10:24:04 am
content: Quote from: Cerebus on July 31, 2022, 09:15:44 pmIts more of a situation with the current electricity prices. Right now I got a contract at 0.4 EUR/KWh. Considering an electric car uses 22KWh for 100 KM, this is 8.8EUR in electricity. A hybrid would have let's say 4.5L fuel usage, resulting about ~10 EUR for the same trip, since fuel costs somewhere around 2.2EUR/L.I think right now it's probably cheaper to run your house from a diesel generator than to pay for these absolutely ridiculous electricity prices. I cannot wait for the gov. to drop the hammer on these companies because for sure they are price gauging the situation. If I wouldn't have my solar panels I would be absolutely upset.

author: Miyuki
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2022, 12:13:07 pm
content: Cycling is a good option for people living in dense areas with flat terrain and suitable weather. So it is naturally limited to just a small percentage of big cities.Quote from: bdunham7 on July 31, 2022, 04:29:10 pmIt is another elephant in the room of this industry. As all car industry is heavily anti-repair, EV offered them a great weapon to make repair "impossible" (they prohibit it even when it is in most cases a simple repair that can be done by any equipped repair shop)Minor issues like this, some small seal leak or faulty cell will render the whole car a brick.Same as is now a big battle about if you can choose what repair facility you use for your car.Quote from: gnuarm on July 31, 2022, 09:04:59 pmNo, you won't have 50% of BEV in 5 years. There is no way to ramp battery production this fast and source raw materials for it.The only possibility is to artificially limit the number of new cars sold. And I do not see it will pass an angry mob.Plus of course, governments will have to slowly bring all the taxes they pose on "conventional cars" to EVs as it is a huge part of their revenue and it cannot go down

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2022, 02:25:25 pm
content: Quote from: tszaboo on August 01, 2022, 10:24:04 amThis is the next issue--some manufacturers have emphasized efficiency to increase range, others just bolt on ever-larger batteries to their luxobarges. An efficient BEV should be <15kWh/100km and I don't mean less-than-car alternatives.

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2022, 02:26:19 pm
content: Quote from: Miyuki on August 01, 2022, 12:13:07 pmThey don't have to be flat. Brighton on the South Coast of England has huge numbers of active cyclists, 22% of the city's residents regularly cycle, and it's very far from flat, the whole city is built on a slope that goes from the South Downs behind it to the sea in front of it. The main north-south routes from the seafront have a 5% gradient. In fact it has one of the steepest city roads I've ever encountered with a 20% gradient and that used to be one of my favourite short cuts when cycling between Hove and Brighton when I lived there. (It also has one of the best Fish and Chip shops in Brighton, possibly the whole South Coast, at the top of it.)

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2022, 03:08:14 pm
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on August 01, 2022, 02:25:25 pmSee, for instance, the Hummer EV: 200kWh battery giving a 400 mile range. Meanwhile a Model S with the 100kWh battery nearly hits that (and the 'S' is a big car!)Yes - it's good that the Hummer EV is fully electric - no it's not good that it's the size of a small house. We need to rethink transportation if this is considered a normal sized vehicle for a family.I hope 'if' autonomous vehicles become more common it will be possible to packetise transport, where you can be picked up in a 1-2 person vehicle if you are commuting but rent a 4-5 person vehicle for longer trips.Long way off from that future so for now we need to make smaller vehicles more popular whilst improving access to larger ones when needed (car/van sharing, better delivery...) It always amuses me the sight of someone buying something at IKEA with their giant SUV - and still not being able to fit it all in, usually having something poking out of a window.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2022, 03:20:33 pm
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on August 01, 2022, 02:25:25 pmI have wrote it before: if you look at very efficient BEVs (like the new Mercedes EQXX concept) you'll see the same shape as people use to modify ICE cars to become a lot more efficient.A problem I do see is that cars become less practical. The booth space shrinks and the space people have in the rear seats get smaller due to the roof becoming lower. At some point you can't optimise further without sacrificing useability.Quote from: tom66 on August 01, 2022, 03:08:14 pmOne of the advantages of a bicycle is that you can easely transport very long items like tubes and lengths of wood. IIRC my record is 5 meters or so.I don't get the appeal of a SUV either. Last year we had to rent a car which turned out to be some kind of SUV model (Renault 2008) but we could barely fit our luggage in it.Quote from: Miyuki on August 01, 2022, 12:13:07 pmNot really. With suitable clothing you can cycle all year round while being warm and comfy even when it is cold and/or raining. In the end it is about changing your habbits. With electric bikes being commonly available, flat terrain isn't necessary.

author: emece67
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2022, 04:02:00 pm
content: .

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2022, 04:36:15 pm
content: One can always find edge cases where climate or terrain will defeat cyclists, or at least mass adoption of cycling, but most towns and cites are built in river valleys, river basins, rivers deltas or coastal plains precisely because that's where you find a climate and terrain that's best for people, building and transport.The majority of places where the majority of people live are geographically well suited in terms of climate and terrain to cycling as practical everyday transport. Most of the barriers aren't natural but man made, often made that way because of the assumption of motorised transport as the primary way of accessing facilities and employment. e.g. I've just made a 14 mile (22 km) round trip in the car to the 'local' waste and recycling facility with a load of things that the council won't collect, and that load would have been impractical to take on a bicycle as well as a bit of a slog.

author: gnuarm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2022, 08:59:06 pm
content: Quote from: tszaboo on August 01, 2022, 10:24:04 amIt should be easy enough to tell. In the US such utilities are required to release their financials. In fact, in most places in the US, utilities must have their rates approved. Sometime 20 years ago or so, they were allowed to include a variable for fuel costs. Again, with public disclosure of costs.

author: gnuarm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2022, 09:07:29 pm
content: Quote from: tszaboo on August 01, 2022, 10:24:04 amI think your numbers are faulty. 22 kWh/100 km is around 350 Wh/mi. That is a high average consumption, even for my model X which is the BEV equivalent of the US family station wagon (now it's a van or large SUV). Most BEVs are more in the 4-5 mi/kWhr, 200-250 Wh/mi. Try your calculations with those numbers.

author: gnuarm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2022, 09:11:32 pm
content: Quote from: Miyuki on August 01, 2022, 12:13:07 pmWow! You like to change the goal posts. How many examples of this can you find?QuoteYou can make any claims you want. We will see.Quote"Huge"... really? Again, you have no numbers for what constitutes "huge". What difference if you pay the tax at the gas pump or through a direct tax? You are really reaching. A clear sign of desperation.

author: gnuarm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2022, 09:14:31 pm
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on August 01, 2022, 02:25:25 pmSo which BEVs can't attain 15kWh/100km? Mine is one, it gets more like 300 Wh/mi (19 kWh/100 km), but it is an outlier because it is a large luxury car.

author: Miyuki
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2022, 09:21:06 pm
content: Quote from: gnuarm on August 01, 2022, 09:07:29 pmI know "early" EVs from the 80s and 90s were around 20-25 kWh/100 km with lead acid batteriesAnd it was small cars like VW Golf

author: gnuarm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2022, 09:22:26 pm
content: Quote from: Miyuki on August 01, 2022, 09:21:06 pmLike I said, faulty numbers.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2022, 09:59:14 pm
content: Quote from: gnuarm on August 01, 2022, 09:14:31 pmGoing by the window sticker figures and a bit of math, any of them that don't get at least a 139.6 MPG-E rating--which is actually most BEVs that aren't microcars. The Hyundai Ioniq is an example of one that does make that rating @ 150MPG-E (city). Our old Ford only has a 118 MPG-E rating (city) but it still has averaged 239 Wh/mile or 14.94 kWh/100kM in real life. If you are really only using 300Wh/mile with your Model X, then you are well under the spec as well.

author: gnuarm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2022, 10:31:48 pm
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on August 01, 2022, 09:59:14 pmI don't use the MPGe ratings because they are detached from reality. They are used to try to compare BEVs to ICE, but not in a useful way and clearly with significant variations.I obtain anywhere from 270 Wh/mi to 370 Wh/mi depending on how much I am abusing the performance of the car. A typical number for my model X is between 300 Wh/mi and 330 Wh/mi depending on circumstances (mostly speed). Turns out the mileage goes up quickly in heavy traffic because of the lower speeds, and the lack of significant penalty in stop and go type driving.The commonly accepted number for more common models 3 and Y are 250 Wh/mi.I have no interest in MPGe numbers because i never use them. Why not calculate using furlongs per fortnight?Ultimately what matters is cost and range. Standard consumption numbers in Wh will give you both. With MPGe it would be very difficult. How many gallons does your BEV hold?

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2022, 02:56:46 am
content: Quote from: gnuarm on August 01, 2022, 10:31:48 pmBecause MPG-E numbers are what is listed on the window sticker, so that's all there is to go on for an apples-to-apples comparison between models. And converting to Wh/mile or kWh/100kM is straightforward enough. 15kWh/100kM is 139.6 MPG-E. Like any EPA ratings, YMMV.

author: gnuarm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2022, 05:05:58 am
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on August 02, 2022, 02:56:46 amAll you need to do is talk to people. It's easy to get good numbers. But I've never cared much about the tiny details. There's too much variation in conditions to worry with be overly accurate. 4 mi/kWh is plenty good enough. Every BEV I've seen will report the remaining charge in both kWh and distance.Is the MPGe rating something linear? How do they calculate it? I assume it has a magic fudge factor?

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2022, 05:38:48 am
content: Quote from: gnuarm on August 02, 2022, 05:05:58 amIt just starts with the fundamental assumption that a gallon of gasoline is 'equivalent' to 33.7kWh. Which it is, provided you have a 100% efficient gasoline powered water heater.One thing about the numbers we've been talking about, including my 239kWh claim for my Focus, is that MPG-E is based on 'at the wall' power--including charging losses--whereas the car will generally report power used from the battery. So that becomes a 'fudge factor' if you will. But still, 139.6MPG-E simply means you drew 15kWh from the grid for every 100kM.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2022, 08:53:14 am
content: Quote from: gnuarm on August 01, 2022, 09:14:31 pmSpeed dependent (of course), but my PHEV Golf gets about 18kWh/100km on longer trips before engine is used. The e-Golf gets about 15kWh/100km. Even big SUVs like Kona electric can get less than 16kWh/100km (4 miles per kWh) when driven sensibly.At about 120km/h then efficiency falls. e.g. 20-22kWh/100km may be more realistic.The problem with EVs is torque is addictive and if you full throttle it all the time from the lights your battery will not last as long as you expect

author: gnuarm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2022, 12:48:28 pm
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on August 02, 2022, 05:38:48 amI suppose that's useful if you want to calculate the impact to your electric bill. Not much use to determine range or anything else. To me it is a pointless value.

author: gnuarm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2022, 12:53:59 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on August 02, 2022, 08:53:14 amTires too!You seem to be talking about hybrids. I have no idea how the extra weight of the engine, etc. and the added complexity affects the mileage. I'm rather amazed that they barely beat my tank.Nothing personal, but hybrids are only about reducing cost of fuel. They will never be a zero emissions solution. BEVs may not be zero emissions currently, but as more renewable power comes online, they ultimately will be truly zero emissions.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2022, 12:59:01 pm
content: If you don't need that much fuel, then it becomes easier to replace fuel from oil with synthetic / organic fuel that has no additional CO2 emissions.

author: gnuarm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2022, 01:02:58 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on August 02, 2022, 12:59:01 pmWhat does "easier" mean? Producing gasoline from biological sources is no small task. It takes a huge amount of energy. It would only be viable if energy were extremely cheap and maybe not, even then. The cost of the plant to convert the fuel is much more involved than a refinery, for example.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2022, 01:07:54 pm
content: Quote from: gnuarm on August 02, 2022, 01:02:58 pmIf you use less fuel with a hybrid, then you'll need less non-fossil fuel as a replacement. In turn this means that 1) synthetic / organic fuels may be significantly more expensive compared to fossil fuels while you can still get from A to B for the same price. 2) you'll need to produce less fuel in order to replace fossil fuel consumption.And ofcourse modern day synthetic / organic fuel factories are powered using renewable sources so it doesn't really matter how much energy they need. In the end all what counts is that the price of the fuel being produced is competitive or not.https://www.toyota-europe.com/world-of-toyota/feel/environment/better-air/biofuelsBottom line is: BEVs are not the only possible solution for zero emission cars. Far from it!

author: gnuarm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2022, 01:26:15 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on August 02, 2022, 01:07:54 pmNo, BEVs are not the only possible choice. We can wait for the Jetson's flying car too.Let me know when any of what you are talking about is ready for the market.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2022, 01:33:14 pm
content: In case you aren't aware: the fuel you buy today already consists of 5% to 10% bio-fuel! This has been the case for a long time already.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2022, 02:15:19 pm
content: Quote from: gnuarm on August 02, 2022, 12:53:59 pmOf course, PHEV can't achieve 0% emissions if petrol is used.But then technically neither can BEV until we have 100% emissions free power grid, and zero-leakage from air conditioning system etc. So this is a longer term goal.In the short term PHEV is great as a taster to electric mobility and as you say reducing fuel usage, which is still of a benefit to the environment. In my old job my PHEV reduced my petrol usage by upwards of 85%, in my current position I have to use the engine to commute back but I still get at least 50% reduction compared to similar sized vehicle and all local trips are electric only.I would definitely get a BEV as soon as one is practical but I have other priorities for my money right now. Namely I have to buy our house before spending any more money on silly toys. Given what I have seen I would probably get a VW ID.3 but I will give the Peugeot e-208 a try as well. I am attracted by the 204 PS motor in the ID.3 (it is equally as fast as my GTE hybrid) because I like a faster car... But it is rather expensive and the payback time will be very lengthy.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2022, 02:18:10 pm
content: The problem with synfuels for mobility is they will likely cost 3-4x the cost of fossil fuels, based on the latest research I read. So equivalent to $400 per barrel oil costs. That may allow them to be used for aviation (with a corresponding cost in the ticket price!) but I think it will be very difficult to sell them for general transportation. Also biofuels produced from ethanol may be worse than using fossil fuel given the land use changes required to accommodate extra crops. If the ethanol is produced by a synthesis process using modified algae then it may work out but last I heard these projects were stalling with the difficulty of getting the algae to produce sufficient quantities to be economically viable.

author: edy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2022, 02:59:24 pm
content: Interesting discussion so far...So another thing I'd like to bring up is that oil prices can (and have) significantly swung in both directions in the past, creating uncertainty to consumer behaviour which (let's face it) has more to do with cost than trying to save the planet. How and why would car manufacturers with obvious large investment costs in production lines and difficulty "pivoting" on models/designs be able to predict how to best drive their profit-margins?For example, latest oil barrel prices have been up in the $90-100 range. Not long ago, if you remember, a barrel of oil was "negative" (yes I know that was a sort of economic glitch). The pandemic also killed oil prices. OPEC and others can fix prices, artificially elevating or flooding the market. The Ukraine war is obviously another huge factor. Sure, the last few months everybody is worrying about gas prices and there is more interest in fuel-efficient cars. But when during the typical lifespan of a vehicle, the oil barrel price can range by a factor of 3-4x up and down, who is looking at this when deciding their purchase?

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2022, 09:23:16 pm
content: Quote from: gnuarm on August 01, 2022, 09:22:26 pmhttps://ev-database.org/cheatsheet/energy-consumption-electric-carI picked a number in the middle.If you are going to do a "but but but" then include charger efficiency and then you end up with this number.

author: gnuarm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2022, 09:46:54 pm
content: Quote from: tszaboo on August 02, 2022, 09:23:16 pmI don't really care what numbers you use. They are wrong. Today's BEVs get around 4-5 miles per kWh. Convert that to kWh/100km or whatever unit you prefer, but if you start with faulty numbers, you won't get a meaningful result.I don't know anything about your database because it doesn't load.The connection has timed outAn error occurred during a connection to ev-database.org.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2022, 10:32:07 pm
content: Quote from: gnuarm on August 02, 2022, 09:46:54 pmDont worry, I dont care about what you have to say either, since you shown yourself to be an opiniated irritating person, in write only mode, who doesn't consider anything even if someone sends them actual fata proving them wrong. Ignore list. Good day sir.

author: gnuarm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2022, 12:15:38 am
content: Quote from: tszaboo on August 02, 2022, 10:32:07 pmThat's the trouble, you foundsomeinformationsomewhereand picked data from that whichseemedreasonable. Meanwhile it is not relevant at all because a huge percentage of the BEVs on the roads get 4-5 miles per kWh.You web site wasn't even working. Here's one that does.https://ecocostsavings.com/electric-car-kwh-per-mile-list/I don't know how you can blame me for being unreasonable.

author: Miyuki
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2022, 05:02:10 am
content: Quote from: gnuarm on August 02, 2022, 09:46:54 pmThe reason why you two are operating with different numbers is that you are talking about "cars" whereas in this average are not just cars but vans likeCitroen e-SpaceTourer MAnd it pushes the average significantly higher

author: gnuarm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2022, 05:34:37 am
content: Quote from: Miyuki on August 03, 2022, 05:02:10 amOk, enough said.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2022, 07:05:22 am
content: Quote from: Miyuki on August 03, 2022, 05:02:10 amAlso, electric cars are most efficient in slow city traffic exactly where a fossil car is least efficient. On the highway the roles are reversed and fossil bombs are running closer to peak efficiency while electric battery tanks hit the laws of physics.So when anyone with astrongbias wants to argue "facts" they're likely picking some unrepresentative numbers.Comparable cars (same model!) on the Australian (older/slower NEDC type) testing:https://www.greenvehicleguide.gov.au/Vehicle/SearchHyundai 2021 Kona EV 150kw Electric 13.1 kWh/100kmHyundai 2021 Kona EV 100kW Electric 14.3 kWh/100kmHyundai 2021 Kona 2.0 4cyl 6.2 l/100kmHyundai 2021 Kona 1.6 4cyl Turbo 4wd 6.9 l/100kmThey're one of the lowest claimed electric consumption per 100km across the market (bizarrely the reported figures are reverse of what would be expected for the different electric models!) while mediocre on the fossils (and if you check the full database the combined is lower than either urban or extraurban for that last example). Its not unknown for manufacturers to have enhanced aero features/parts only added to some models within a lineup, making comparison even harder. But when the offical databases are this hard to follow/broken the numbers are close to guessing.Don't know why EV's aren't reporting separately for urban/extraurban like "normal" vehicles.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2022, 07:18:32 am
content: Quote from: Miyuki on August 03, 2022, 05:02:10 amYep. If you split the list at the point where the Wh/100km goes over the average, the only vehicle there which isn't an SUV is the Mach-E -- and that's really a CUV by automotive standards so not much different. The Peugeot e-Rifter and Opel Combo-e are both vans, and they're 10% higher than the average.Whereas on the bottom end you have the Model 3 at 151Wh/100km almost 50Wh less than the average, or the ID.3 at 166Wh (suggesting that VW need to up their efficiency game as the ID.3 is comparable in size to the 3.)

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2022, 09:30:54 am
content: Quote from: Someone on August 03, 2022, 07:05:22 amNEDC is pretty optimistic where it comes to BEVs. When looking at a year round average (cold / hot) which includes a decent amount of highway driving (IOW: not using a car where a bicycle would be a better choice anyway), a reasonable ball park number for a BEV is 200Wh/km.

author: gnuarm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2022, 01:19:40 pm
content: Quote from: Someone on August 03, 2022, 07:05:22 amI would not term it "efficiency". I don't think the efficiency changes (unless you are a certain road test magazine that accounts for regenerative braking in a way that pushes efficiency over 100%). What changes is where the energy goes.In city traffic, the ICE requires dissipative braking resulting in the ICE being used repeatedly to restore the momentum of the vehicle. The BEV simply restores the energy to the battery. On the highway, BOTH types of vehicles simply need to expend more energy to overcome the greater losses of high speed driving.QuoteI don't follow what you mean, "reverse"?I'm very impressed with the range of the 150kW model, >340 miles. I see that various sources report lower numbers. Since the battery is the same in each case, I wonder if there is some difference in fuel efficiency being reported.QuoteWhat is an "aero feature"?

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2022, 06:02:27 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on August 02, 2022, 01:07:54 pmIt is unfortunate that nobody developed an E85-only hybrid, since an E85-only engine can be made even more efficient than the gasoline Prius engine by using even higher compression. E85 is typically much cheaper (32% on average IIRC) but has 25% less thermal energy per gallon. The increased efficiency would probably make up for about half that, meaning a slight reduction in range or increase in fuel tank size along with lower operating costs and an 85% non-fossil fuel. Sadly E85 isn't common enough for this to be a viable product. An E85 only Prius Prime would really slash fossil-fuel usage.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2022, 06:07:45 pm
content: There are a couple of diesel hybrids, which theoretically could run on some forms of biodiesel if well refined.Examples include the Mercedes "BlueEfficiency Diesel" PHEV and Citroen DS5 Hybrid.I don't know of any North American examples -- maybe in trucks. Ford has some hybrid F150 but it's petrol powered.There are issues with diesel hybrids due to the short-cycling of the engine, so they didn't seem to gain much market share compared to petrol hybrids. I think it's telling that VW didn't attempt to make any given they liked to pretend they were well ahead on diesel tech (or at least the cheating part)

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2022, 06:23:03 pm
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on August 03, 2022, 06:02:27 pmThe problem is that ethanol production needs to make a lateral move towards more sustainable production first (2nd and 3rd generation bio fuels) before production can be increased significantly. There really is a lot going on where it comes to making ethanol from agricultural and other plant based waste instead of growing crops specifically for ethanol production (seehttps://ethanolproducer.com/). But making this move likely takes another decade as the whole chain from harvesting until production needs to be build up.

author: Miyuki
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 04, 2022, 05:22:07 am
content: Quote from: tom66 on August 03, 2022, 06:07:45 pmModern emission system in diesel engines needs at least 20 minutes of running time to workThis is why they fail in city trafficAnd with highway traffic is no benefit to a "normal" hybridYou need to have PHEV to use a diesel engine only for long waysThose Mercedes PHEVs look with decent parameters, but the price is crazy.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 04, 2022, 10:13:07 am
content: You can never get good control over emissions on a diesel engine. A diesel engine works with excess air which also contains a lot of nitrogen. So you get a lot of NOx. Now you can try to control that by additives and reducing the amount of air by mixing exhaust gasses into the inlet but that causes the formation of sooth (fine particles consisting of half burned fuel) and reduces engine efficiency.

author: Miyuki
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 04, 2022, 10:45:28 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on August 04, 2022, 10:13:07 amYou can deal with emissions relatively easy when you keep exhaust gasses hot enough, which means you are using at least 20-30% of engine power/keeping within an efficient region (typical engine example, dark blue line area and better)But you cannot reach that in a common passenger car with engine side, they uses. As city traffic requires 1-5kW of power with short peaks to lower tens of kW.It works kinda Ok in things like busses where the engine size is well suited for city speedsAnd of course, highway traffic is the best for themAnd with today's efficiency of over 40%, they can beat batteries with the current energy mix in CO2 easily, especially when we will talk about cargo transport for long distancesBut for cities it is terrible and I understand why dense cities are trying to push them from centersAnd the start-stop system won't help it either as it lets catalytic converter cool even more

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 04, 2022, 10:50:14 am
content: And then we have bizarre vehicles like the Nissan e-Power Qashqai (I hate this car so much in any form, but maybe I have an irrational hatred towards SUVs.)https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/nissan/qashqai/357617/new-nissan-qashqai-e-power-2022-reviewThis car features a 1.5cyl petrol engine driving a generator which charges either a 2.1kWh battery or powers a regular 187 hp electric motor then driving the wheels. So it's a series hybrid. But it has no option to recharge the battery - all energy comes from combustion. There are very few series hybrids in use, as I understand it the concern is double conversion losses from generator to motor are notable enough to avoid this design in most cases.I can't imagine this offers any benefit on the highway but maybe in the city the ability to keep the petrol engine at high load all of the time is of some benefit. Still, it does seem like a rather odd design.Edit - typo

author: Miyuki
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 04, 2022, 11:07:56 am
content: Quote from: tom66 on August 04, 2022, 10:50:14 amWith at least 10kWh, a better 20kWh battery, and charging it will be a great thing but thisIt seems Toyota refused to give them their hybrid technology and it might be a little cheaper to build. But makes no sense in this configuration.Keeping the engine at a high/constant load has significant benefits on pollutants (NOx, hydrocarbons) and can be easily tuned for higher efficiency as commonly required wide RPM range gives a significant hit to efficiency

author: gnuarm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 04, 2022, 12:40:10 pm
content: Quote from: Miyuki on August 04, 2022, 11:07:56 amBut no matter how hard they try, they won't get the carbon emission down to zero. This is why hybrids are pointless. They are a solution to a problem we no longer have (non-CO2 pollutants) with the introduction of BEVs.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 04, 2022, 02:03:27 pm
content: I guess you are missing the fact that bio-fuels have existed for a long time already and are being used more and more! And BEVs don't make coal and gas fueled power plants go away!

author: edy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 04, 2022, 02:07:18 pm
content: I remember a video about an old bus in Germany (Gyro bus) that used a flywheel to power itself. There is even someone who tried to make a bicycle with a flywheel to help recuperate some of the breaking energy lost to heat (with the added advantage that the flywheel acted to help balance the bicycle at low speeds).Could there be any advantage to using such a purely mechanical system let's say within the wheels themselves or on the drive-train that can be coupled to a small CVT/clutch mechanism that will not be overcome by the added weight needed to carry such a flywheel around all the time? (NOT TO MENTION the SAFETY CONCERNS if there is ever an accident, these flywheels can wreak havoc on anything in the area if it escapes).Here are the different videos, first on the German flywheel bus and second video on the attempt to make a flywheel bicycle:Flywheel bike:

author: Miyuki
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 04, 2022, 04:27:32 pm
content: Quote from: edy on August 04, 2022, 02:07:18 pmIt is called KERS and is used in some race carsTurns out it is way more expensive than a hybrid drive train with a small batteryQuote from: gnuarm on August 04, 2022, 12:40:10 pmTell me when US and EU (not saying about China and India) will have zero carbon electricityIt won't be in this or even next decadeThey are to bridge the gap, and with some bio/syn fuels to be used even then for cases when BEV won't offer the required range, because there always will be some minor cases where you will need more flexibilityPlus another rare example, but sadly real. How would a massive amount of people run from disaster (like a natural one or a war), you will end up with plenty of people stuck at 100-200 km. Current cheap EVs have these ranges plus will be a big portion of people do not have them fully charged.BEVs are great city cars and I will agree they shall be even mandatory in city centers (even as I'm libertarian) but with the current technology level, energy mix and state of society are not a silver bullet.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 04, 2022, 05:23:09 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on August 04, 2022, 02:03:27 pmAre there any biofuels in commercial production that:* don't have land-use issues (bioethanol from crop is at issue here, specifically - there's absolutely no point in chopping down trees to free land for emissions-neutral fuel)* are produced from sustainable, volume-scalable waste products (i.e. we can't just take the McDonalds chip-fat example and expect to run the whole country off that stuff) OR;* are produced in a carbon-neutral synthetic process?I think the answer is 'no', but you seem keen promote this as a viable alternative to BEVs so perhaps you know better?On BEVs still requiring fossil fuel. Yes, they do. But they are increasingly requiring less of this as the grid goes towards zero emissions technology. Even today, a VW e-Golf at 250gCO2e/kWh (average for the UK) produces just 60g CO2 per km whereas the equivalent ICE Golf (1.5 TSI) is 129g CO2 per km - excluding emissions produced during refinement, extraction, transportation etc. of the fuel (which can contribute upwards of 40% more emissions depending on the company)The BEV is the only technology CURRENTLY available where it is viable that they could be powered from emissions neutral energy. There is no other technology. Not hydrogen, not biofuels, not synfuels... It just does not exist.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 04, 2022, 05:40:35 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on August 04, 2022, 05:23:09 pmThe answer is yes and no and becomes more yes every day. For sure a lot of development needs to be done but there are already industrial scale factories running that convert agricultural waste into bio-fuels. See the link I posted earlier (ethanolproducer). It is absolutely wrong to keep clinging to the picture that bio fuels are not energy efficient (they wouldn't be affordable / competitive if they where) or take land away from food production.For example: France is one of the largest ethanol producers of Europe but they don't use a significant amount of farm land. The majority of the production comes from using agricultural waste. AFAIK France was the first country in Europe to mix ethanol with fuel.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 04, 2022, 10:14:28 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on August 04, 2022, 05:23:09 pmThe solution is biofuels from ocean algae. Specifically, if they could figure out how to make biofuel from the kind of algae that forms algae blooms, the act of making biofuel would help solve another problem!

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 04, 2022, 10:19:35 pm
content: I'm quite sceptical you can produce enough road fuel (let's just assume this is for passenger cars for now) from just agricultural waste.In the UK, petrol cars consumed 12 million tonnes of petrol and diesel a similar amount. Petrol is currently E10, 10% ethanol, with that ethanol being primarily imported from Brazil , a country that runs many of its vehicles on E85 or E100. I won't make a density calculation but this is say roughly 1.2 million tonnes for petrol with bioethanol alone coming in on boats. Brazil is producing this ethanol using sugar cane - they produced over 26 billion tonnes of the stuff, most of it for road fuel, with a huge domestic market for the stuff.This doesn't mean that it's impossible to produce it from waste, but it does make me skeptical that it's practical given the shear tonnages required. (Besides, France is not making most of its ethanol from waste, it's making it from sugar and maize too.)Realistically, I can't see how there is going to be enough waste when waste is undesirable. And if you make it desirable, for use in production, then you give a dilemma to the farmer. Retain existing processes that give waste as a benefit for fuel, or improve the processes to improve yield and increase food production. I'm sure there's unavoidable waste, but how much is there really in the end?https://www.greencarguide.co.uk/features/the-uk-gets-its-first-bioethanol-plant

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 04, 2022, 10:28:39 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on August 04, 2022, 10:19:35 pmOne quality reference to suggest that bio-fuel is a non-starter for mass replacement of fossil fuels:https://www.withouthotair.com/cD/page_283.shtml

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 04, 2022, 10:37:52 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on August 04, 2022, 10:19:35 pmI ran some numbers based on yield per area information from Poet-DSM. Based on their numbers and just taking the amount of farm land, countries where farming is widespread should have enough agricultural waste to get to 50% to 75% of the fuel needed based on current consumption.@Someone: the claims in that book are horribly outdated. Nowadays nobody involved in bio-fuel development is suggesting to grow crops to make bio-fuel or burn agricultural waste / plant based material (wood) for electricity production.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 04, 2022, 11:26:46 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on August 04, 2022, 10:37:52 pmThe numbers in that book start with specific/replacement crops as you say, waste from another crop is never going to exceed the bio-fuel production of a dedicated crop (or people would just grow that instead). Its the land area use that is telling, the figures in W/m2. Agricultural waste energy production is too low to support the current energy demands.Worldwide agricultural land use? About 50x10^12 m2 (world bank)Energy output of pure biofuel crop in excellent conditions? 1 W/m2Nice round number 50 TW400 PWh annuallyWorldwide transport fuel use? 110 exajoules (IEA) 30 PWhsounds doable if you cut it that way, except thats for high efficiency (sugarcane) crops on excellent (limited) land. The link I provided was for the first page of a chapter which does have an explicit heading and paragraphs addressing your point of only using waste:https://www.withouthotair.com/cD/page_286.shtmlWhen you start scrounging in the agricultural byproducts, there isnt much left. Most farmers are already pretty good at reducing their operating expenses and reusing any "waste". Trying to pull more than 10% of the agricultural output out of thin air (without reducing something else) sounds pretty extraordinary. Show us how it adds up! Because the reference you poo-poo says it doesn't.But hey you'll just keep throwing out unreferenced unworked and unjustiified opinions as if they are fact that disprove others well researched and considered work. That might work on the lazy, but it wont work here.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2022, 08:53:58 am
content: That's a good point about using biofuels in general. I was a big 'fan' of algae a while ago but the numbers don't add up.A 1m^2 solar cell at 30% efficiency might generate about 1kWh per day, whereas photosynthesis has an efficiency of at most 5%. So you need a much larger collector area to make it work. You also need a way to recycle the 'waste' that the algae produce - most biofuel algae produce more than the desired fuel which requires a further distillation process.More land take, more equivalent CO2 emissions if the land has other useful purposes already. Solar farms can be built on top of existing meadows without harming the meadow too much, as long as the panels have a bit of space between them. Wind turbines have even better kWh per m^2 equivalent, and have almost zero impact on the land surrounding them.There may be something in it for specialist applications that can't move away from hydrocarbons but I don't see it being a major energy source. Although I think synthetic fuels produced from electricity and CO2 will ultimately win out here, e.g. Fischer-Tropsch producing jet fuels (and shorter flights will eventually be pure electric or at least hybrid electric.)

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2022, 10:27:22 am
content: Quote from: Someone on August 04, 2022, 11:26:46 pmIf you cared to do some actual research you'd be better informed. Go look at yield number from Poet-DSM and other companies that actually process agricultural waste into bio-fuels. These companies have numbers that come from running industrial scale factories instead of assumptions. In addition to that, there is a wealth of up-to-date information on ethanolproducer.com .Quote from: tom66 on August 05, 2022, 08:53:58 amAlgae looked very good for a while but it seems scaling up to industrial production is far more difficult than expected. It looks like the idea of using algae has been largely abandoned (for now).

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2022, 11:24:34 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on August 05, 2022, 10:27:22 amOh look replying to figures that can be checked and referenced with... more unreferenced and unworked opinion.Even if the ambitious claims of "sustainable" yield for Poet-DSM has zero impact on the existing cropping its 130PWh should those claimed rates (from rich US corn land, also a crop with significant input fertiliser) prove possible in 100% of all agricultural land worldwide. Against world oil use of 80PWh. Most of the world's agricultural land is not as productive as the US corn industry, its hard to believe bio-fuels will ever be more than a small part of the future energy mix. tom66 puts it really simply:Quote from: tom66 on August 05, 2022, 08:53:58 amSynthetic hydrocarbons and hydrogen are more likely as they can "store" the predicted excess electricity from the land efficient solar/wind generators.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2022, 03:21:51 pm
content: Other thing about synfuels is using them ... they're not exactly efficient in the whole system.Hydrogen production and use roundtrip efficiency is about 50% in most optimal case. (70% electrolyser best case, 70% state-of-the-art fuel cell, zero loss of hydrogen, zero cost of cryogenics.)Synfuels are worse if just combusted - production efficiency around 60% and combustion of nat gas in an ICE (e.g. some cars can run on nat gas) or CCGT (30-40% each) would get somewhere around 20-30% round trip efficiency.There will be a part for either in the future but their high costs compared to using the energy to charge a battery and drive a motor (60-70% round trip efficiency) will be a lot harder to compete with. Consequentially they will be only used in applications where the cost of electrification is too high or manifestly impractical (e.g. aircraft on long haul routes.) I expect to that end we will still see ICE cars for sale long into the future but they will be progressively taxed out of existence or will only be permitted if they can run on a synfuel. Or maybe this is where hydrogen will find itself.Long haul trucking has been mentioned as an area where EVs are impractical. I'd like to see overhead catenaries become more common (there's a line under test in Germany.) These vehicles use diesel or batteries to power their route when off the cable. Would be interesting to know how much of the highway network you'd need to cover in these lines to cover all use cases - the majority of trucks I suspect cover some distance on highway and if the overhead line can charge a battery up at over 250kW for instance then you might only need a ten miles of line for some sections followed by long gaps. Probably position the lines close to existing power infrastructure. Working out how to bill the customer will also be interesting. Electric meter in the truck?

author: Miyuki
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2022, 04:39:28 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on August 05, 2022, 03:21:51 pmI do not know how reliable are current german highway overhead lines.But I know for city (trolley)buses the system is very fragile and needs huge maintenance. Especially when it has crosssections and switches (or how they call it when you split lines).Both lines and centenary damage are common.I expect short straight charging lines will be more reliable. As those complicated areas are what cause most issues. Bumpy roads are also a big problem for them.Yeah power stealing sounds like a possible issue

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2022, 04:56:56 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on August 05, 2022, 03:21:51 pmDon't fall into the trap of looking at efficiencies alone. In the end the only thing that counts is the price you pay as a consumer.What synthetic / bio fuels inherently solve are storage and transport. When I look at my electricity bill (excluding taxes) it turns out that about 50% of the costs are transport costs. So a decrease in generating efficiency of 10% would translate to only 5% more expensive electricity (and vice versa).Quote from: Miyuki on August 05, 2022, 04:39:28 pmI have passed under the overhead lines test track in Germany a couple of times. It is not like a trolleybus system. More like the system you see on a train. I doubt it is unreliable since the mechanical principle is very simple (just like it is with a train). I doubt though the system as it is currently installed in Germany is capable of doing serious charging. Imagine 100+ trucks (the stretch is 5km long!) charging 1MW each. Even big railway stations can't deliver that much power; trains have to take turns pulling out.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2022, 09:13:37 pm
content: Re catenary power, the 25kV AC lines that power most trains can easily provide 500kW to a train as that is what is required to cruise at 125mph. If you scaled that up, you might be able to get several MW. These are typically powered every few miles by small substations located along the line, connected to 275kV+ infrastructure.How much power does a truck need? We can estimate it from the Volvo electric trucks, e.g. Volvo FH has up to 300km range in 4x2 axle configuration with 560kWh battery so crudely 1.86kWh/km and at 90kph that's 167kW.So to charge the battery and maintain cruise you would need 250kW+ per truck, assuming that net power is averaged for hills. Length of a truck is 16.5m and safe following distance at 90kph is 70m, so a 1km section of overhead line is supporting an average of 11 trucks. That would be ~2.5MW ... it doesn't sound extraordinarily high for 25kV line (100A @ 25kV, so 3-4x conductors would probably be ok.)Some intelligence would be needed in the case of traffic jams or slowdowns. How do you communicate an overall power limit of 3MW for example ... maybe load on the line should be determined by voltage sag, or by vehicle speed. Would it be better to regen energy back into the grid or into the truck's battery?I also wonder if ~25kV HVDC would be better than AC - most trains use onboard 50Hz transformers which add some weight.Edit: maths error, power of ten, d'oh

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2022, 09:53:46 pm
content: Trucks in that area of Germany usually drive bumper to bumper. Not 70 meters apart. Often you can't even squeeze your car in between to take an exit!

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2022, 10:01:53 pm
content: That's not even possible with some of the newer trucks, the radar unit won't let you as it'll just trigger the braking system or reduce acceleration.I guess if too many trucks drive close together then an overall power limit would be hit which could result in them slowing down so it would (kind of) self regulate.It does frustrate me. Tailgating gets you nowhere faster and endangers other users of the road - I know Germany is one of the few countries that actually prosecutes drivers who do that so... more power to the Polizei on dealing with that.

author: gnuarm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2022, 05:58:46 am
content: Quote from: Miyuki on August 04, 2022, 04:27:32 pmYou don't understand. All electricity doesn't need to be zero carbon. Many people have their own solar chargers, others buy energy from solar or wind farms. Yeah, that's a thing.Quote"Bridging the gap" is meaningless. There's no gap to bridge. There's no logic in this statement.QuoteSilly argument. If you have a disaster that stops charging of cars, you also stop pumping gas. In the US, Florida is the poster child for mass evacuations. Big hurricane comes north and everyone hits the highways. Gas and electricity aren't the big problems. Cars are. Too many cars, not enough roads!QuoteNo one is telling you what to drive. But in 15 to 20 years, if you are driving an ICE, you will be hunting for the remaining few gas stations open since 98% of cars on the road will be BEVs. Gas will be $20 a gallon. It really is that simple. Watch and see. Not many people are going to buy an ICE because they are worried about an earthquake or war.I hope I am still around then. Because every time I hear a fire belching gas burner roar by I'll feel good knowing how dearly they are paying for the privilege.

author: gnuarm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2022, 06:03:06 am
content: Quote from: tom66 on August 04, 2022, 05:23:09 pmI don't follow. Why can various manufactured fuels use only renewable energy? Biofuels use some form of crops, but that carbon was just absorbed from the air, so releasing it again does no harm. Hydrogen involves no carbon at all if you don't use hydrocarbons as your hydrogen source. That can be water.Are you just making the point that these are not currently commercially practical?

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2022, 09:44:03 am
content: Quote from: gnuarm on August 06, 2022, 06:03:06 amMore or less.Biofuels have land use offsets. If you chop down parts of the Amazon rainforest to make bioethanol, then you released more carbon over ten years than you did just burning fossil fuels. In the longer term biofuels can be carbon neutral, especially if they are produced on land that's otherwise not that useful. There are still concerns about offsetting food, which is more essential than energy. But I have doubts that in any case we could get enough biofuel production to replace all fossil fuels, without turning the earth into a dust bowl again. Also algae biofuels, the former love of the likes of Exxon, seem to be making little progress.Hydrogen is almost exclusively produced from steam reforming of natural gas and the emissions profile of a hydrogen car powered from said "blue hydrogen" is worse than a diesel/petrol car. There are lots of additional costs with hydrogen for vehicles, the high gas pressures requiring cryo storage and pumping, the high cost of fuel cells, the low overall efficiency, and the relatively high cost of the fuel itself, despite subsidies.Synfuels are just not produced at a large enough scale for practicality yet - and there is a lot to work out to get the process efficient and scaled up. I would say synfuels are probably the most promising technology for applications where electrification is impractical, for instance aircraft, portable generation, etc.So of the technologies available I don't see passenger cars going anywhere but battery powered EVs. There will be a greater proportion of hybrids in the future, and plug in hybrids will still be popular. Hydrogen won't be any more of a technology demo. For trucks and trains, it's harder to say, hydrogen could make some sense there but electrification is also quite likely. For aircraft, maybe hydrogen will be investigated, but due to latency in the industry I expect the dominant technology will either be synfuel or biofuel for quite some time.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2022, 12:47:02 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on August 06, 2022, 09:44:03 amThe majority of front and back yards are not used for growing food. Turning that into revenue streams for the owners would be a great thing.Exactly what problems are algae based biofuels running into?

author: gnuarm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2022, 04:29:33 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on August 06, 2022, 09:44:03 amYou are thinking of crops like corn which do use arable farm land. My understanding is most biofuel research is in crops that would use land that is not good farm land and so would not compete with food crops. You have to keep in mind that for fuel, the crops have to be very, very inexpensive.QuoteThere is nothing that says hydrogen must be produced this way. If the renewable energy is inexpensive enough, electrolysis of water becomes economical.I don't disagree that hydrogen has a dismal future as an automotive fuel, but it's not because hydrogen can't be carbon free.QuoteYou can say similar things about BEVs. There aren't enough chargers for long trips, there aren't enough chargers for apartments and condos, batteries cost too much, range is too short... the list goes on.Yes, we have to convert many forms of transportation to eliminate the carbon and it's being worked on. Nothing happens overnight... except sleep.QuoteI don't disagree. I run into hydrogen advocates on Quora who just can't grasp that hydrogen is still a long way off, even if there are many cars on the roads today. Having prototypes is not remotely the same as having paths through all the road blocks.The real problem for hydrogen is the simple fact that BEVs are here, today and are only improving. Hydrogen will require multiple billions of dollars to be invested in infrastructure in addition to research. With the clear path forward for BEVs, I think that investment will not be forthcoming. Now that BEVs are becoming entrenched, there are no significant problems for hydrogen cars to solve.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2022, 04:41:25 pm
content: There are still huge problems for BEVs to solve. Raw materials is one of them. But also cost of charging infrastructure. In the end there is really is no use to try and figure out what the definitive solution will be right now. There are too many wheels in motion. Remember: BEVs came and went before! A large part of the popularity of BEVs is based on hype.Looking at the future I see a lot of movement to make hydrogen the new oil. What is the use of converting hydrogen to electricity only to store it in a heavy battery that gets lugged along in a car? Also from a raw materials POV running a car on hydrogen makes a lot of sense. The amount of platinum needed for the fuel cell starts to approach the amounts that are presently used in catalytic converters. Bottom line: it makes no sense to discard cars on hydrogen at this moment.

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2022, 05:22:27 pm
content: Quote from: NiHaoMike on August 06, 2022, 12:47:02 pmThat's really high on the "Hasn't got a clue" scale. Practicalities aside, people have those yards to do things in. Sit and watch the world go by, have a quiet drink or smoke at the end of a long hot day, somewhere for the pets and kids to play, somewhere to do some exercise, somewhere to eat, somewhere to have a party, a BBQ, some people deliberately plant wildlife friendly plants in the (probably forlorn) hope of preserving enough biodiversity to stop local ecosystems collapsing, or just some pretty flowers, perhaps a few fresh herbs for the kitchen. Suggesting that people would welcome an additionaltinyrevenue stream by replacing all that and more with a likely monoculture of fuel plants at the cost of quality of life is, well, farcical.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2022, 06:46:39 pm
content: Having attempted to grow all kinds of stuff in my back yard (check on quite few items Cerebus has listed and more -no drugs though-), I know first hand that it is extremely hard to get to some kind of production level quantities of anything. So far potatoes have been most succesful. Farming is a profession not to be taken lightly. You need a fairly large piece of land and machines to get to a sufficiently large scale.Where I live they designed a neigbourhood specifically for people to have food crops in their garden (with some promotion as well). Recently I overheard a conversation from someone who lives in that neighbourhood: it turns out the whole 'growing food' thing is a massive flop. It takes too much time to do it right. Some even hire people to take care of the garden or just rent it out so others can use the land

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2022, 08:40:23 pm
content: There's good reason we moved from a society where ~50% of people were employed in agriculture to one now where less than 1% are: mechanisation, the Haber process and a significant level of scientific rigor. I have an enormous amount of respect for farmers. But, yeah, it's not something you do at home. Not on any reasonable scale, unless you're prepared to work 12 hours a day doing it.

author: gnuarm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2022, 03:12:20 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on August 06, 2022, 04:41:25 pmI find your comments amusing. We are not discussing BEV popularity, we are discussing BEV practicality and use. Clearly BEVs are practical and are being bought literally as fast as they can be make. That's why Tesla dropped all their lower priced versions, upping the minimum price by nearly 50%.BEVs are not a fad. lolQuoteHow can you see movement in the future? Petroleum is an energy source. Hydrogen is an intermediary, like electricity, a means of transporting and using the energy from other sources. So it can't be compared to petroleum.Your analogy of hydrogen being an intermediary on the way to powering a BEV is complete nonsense. Hydrogen ultimately will be produced from electricity. So obviously it makes no sense to turn electrical power into hydrogen, which is turned back into electricity to charge BEVs or anything else. Electricity is easy to transport and is a primary energy, readily changed into nearly any other form of energy. Hydrogen has no role in the energy processes, unless there is an end that is satisfied more easily by hydrogen than electricity, such as various construction efforts or ocean or air transportation.If we ever get the will power to actually stop using gas, petroleum and coal we may find a need for such an energy supply as hydrogen. But it will only be to fill in the cracks, where electricity is not practical.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2022, 03:20:55 pm
content: Maybe you should read the news a bit more in-depth. There are hydrogen storage and production projects in various states allover the world in order to supply energy across the globe. This is one close at home for me:https://www.shell.com/media/news-and-media-releases/2022/shell-to-start-building-europes-largest-renewable-hydrogen-plant.htmlAnd you are wrong about oil being an energy source. It isn't; it is stored solar energy.And you are also wrong about electricity being a primary energy form. It is a handy intermediary form for local use but storage and/or transport over long distances is expensive.Nuclear energy is the closest we can get to a primary energy source on earth.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2022, 05:41:35 pm
content: Quote from: Cerebus on August 06, 2022, 05:22:27 pmUsing the yards for biofuel production doesn't have to interfere with the uses you listed.Quote from: gnuarm on August 07, 2022, 03:12:20 pmThere are processes that make hydrogen from sunlight without making electricity first. Not sure how they will ultimately compare to electrolysis powered by PV.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_production#Photobiological_water_splitting

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2022, 06:37:54 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on August 06, 2022, 04:41:25 pmThere speaks a man who hasn't driven one, or at least lived with one for a while. The popularity, among those who have driven them, is that they are good to drive. I'm a petrol head of long standing, having driven a range of cars and motorbikes, for the cars mostly "performance" cars including some serious exotica and I like driving EVs. My PHEV gets driven almost exclusively in EV mode where it only has 66kW/88bhp available to drag its 1735 kg kerb weight around, but it doesn't feel like "only" 38kW/51bhp per tonne, it feels more responsive and tractable than the 130bhp/tonne sports car it replaced and that I liked so much, and couldn't find anything comparable in performance or handling, that I've stuck to driving for the last 22 years.Then you add not having to listen to a petrol or diesel engine drone at you all the time, or the vibrations from the same, and it's a different world. Quiet, fast, calm, what's not to like.

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2022, 06:42:59 pm
content: Quote from: NiHaoMike on August 07, 2022, 05:41:35 pmHave you tried playing football (any of the four kinds) in a cornfield, wheatfield, or in the middle of any other crop? Or, cricket, tennis, badminton, croquet, boule, even table tennis.

author: gnuarm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2022, 06:58:41 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on August 07, 2022, 03:20:55 pmYes, there are projects for generating hydrogen. None of them are in competition with Petroleum, or more importantly, none are in competition with BEVs in any way.QuoteLOL!!! I actually laughed at that one. When you decide to get serious, let me know and we can continue the discussion. LOL!QuoteYeah, it seems I have forgotten the correct term. Energy has various forms which are ranked by how easily they can be turned into others. Electrical is one of the highest, being easy to turn into mechanical, thermal, chemical and many other forms of energy. Heat is the lowest, being hard to turn into other forms.Anyone know the proper adjective? A Google search did not find it. It did find many energy drinks, however.QuoteA pointless distinction however.

author: gnuarm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2022, 07:00:02 pm
content: Quote from: Cerebus on August 07, 2022, 06:37:54 pm+1

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2022, 07:21:03 pm
content: Quote from: gnuarm on August 07, 2022, 06:58:41 pmNot yet but the wheels are in motion.QuoteSo, where does oil come from according to you?

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2022, 07:27:26 pm
content: Quote from: Cerebus on August 07, 2022, 06:37:54 pmThat remark misses the point by a mile...Look at resource and scalability issues of BEVs. If it would have made sense for my to drive in a BEV I'd would have but it doesn't. Despite living in a country that is among the few countries that has the highest percentage of BEVs driving around.

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2022, 08:18:20 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on August 07, 2022, 07:27:26 pmNone of which is about "popularity".If you wanted to ride a mile you'd need five horses you keep changing between them so often.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2022, 09:39:22 pm
content: Quote from: Cerebus on August 07, 2022, 06:37:54 pmVery much the same for my GTE. It's little 100hp electric motor provides more than enough power for zipping around the city. It has a six-speed auto gearbox which the motor operates through (present only because it's a hybrid, and, y'know, ICE power-bands kind of suck) which is the only cause of any of the latency... usually the gearbox hasn't managed to select the lowest gear needed for max torque. (I've taken to blipping the gearbox down when approaching roundabouts, etc. The instant torque is very useful there if you spot a gap on the approach.)I cannot wait to replace it with something fully electric because I know it will just be better to drive. The gearbox is a compromise.I used to drive a five-speed naturally aspirated petrol engine car, which I thought was a nice car to drive. But, it took one test drive of an EV - a Nissan Leaf at the time, back in 2017 - to convince me that electric was the future.

author: gnuarm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2022, 11:28:41 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on August 07, 2022, 07:21:03 pmThe point is no one sane gives a durn. Petroleum is as much an energy source as any. As much as the sun, as much as an atom, as much as coal. We dig it from the ground and burn it to make heat which we then, with low efficiencies, turn into useful energy.Hydrogen doesn't even exist as a pure substance until we free it from methane or water by adding copious quantities of energy and in the case of methane, release copious quantities of carbon into the air.When hydrogen can be produced at a price equivalent to even $4 a gallon gasoline, without releasing carbon into the air, come back and tell us about it. Until then, hydrogen is stillborn.

author: edy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 11, 2022, 04:02:04 pm
content: I just read an article about how car manufacturers are trying to make everything a "subscription" to drive future revenue, from installed hardware (that you choose whether to use or not) to software features (especially "cloud-connected" stuff). Knowing that, how will it impact the future owner-subscription model for automobiles and green-energy?For example, would we essentially have a fleet of eco-friendly vehicles lined up to use in a neighbourhood and share them between people? Perhaps apartment blocks could have a scheduling system where you can reserve the car and pay for certain time using it. Would we be paying per mile driven? Would anyone even own their electric or hybrid vehicles, or would car manufacturers actually embed eco-friendly features and then disable them unless paying a subscription to utilize them (e.g. a larger-capacity battery but you can't use most of it).So far we have been thinking "in the box" regarding the same standard private vehicle ownership model and commuting to work, stores, for leisure, etc. But what sort of paradigm-shifting future plans exist for transportation? More people working and shopping from home, via the "Metaverse" can also reduce fuel consumption. Ride-sharing and other modes of transportation to reduce traffic congestion, which also wastes a ton of fuel (how many single-passenger vehicles occupying the roads). Yes we can work on making more fuel-efficient cars but that will eventually hit a limit.... it is only one part of a multi-pronged approach. I feel like other ways to reduce transportation in general, like increasing efficiency of existing modes (not in terms of fuel but eliminating single-passengers in 5 ton vehicles, more carpooling, store deliveries, pooled shipping, lighter/smaller 1-2 passenger vehicles like weather-covered e-bikes, etc) will have more impact.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 11, 2022, 04:37:33 pm
content: Self driving vehicles really change the dynamics.If you use a car a lot it is more practical to self drive - taxi drivers are a significant part of the cost of a taxi ride. SDCs eliminate that cost (sorry, drivers) but at same time allow packetisation of traffic into smaller services. You could easily have 1-2 seater vehicles for short single person trips and 5-7 seater vehicles for family trips. A trip to IKEA could be one way in the microcar and the way back in an autovan. Suddenly huge parking lots become small drop off / pick up areas and all of that tarmac gets used for actual businesses and homes.Of course, SDCs don't really exist yet, but I do think that from 2030 or so they will start to play a significant role in our transport infrastructure. Private cars will still exist especially for areas much less profitable to serve with SDCs (very rural areas) and there will be people who like driving or want a customised vehicle / have accessibility needs. But a lot of car ownership is about convenience and the only thing more convenient than owning a car is all of the benefits of a car without actually having to park it on your drive.

author: gnuarm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 11, 2022, 04:44:32 pm
content: Quote from: edy on August 11, 2022, 04:02:04 pmI will refuse to buy any car that has a subscription model for features.QuoteSubscription model for car features and sharing cars are two different things. There are already places that let you "rent" shared cars via several different payment plans. That's great for people who mostly don't need to own a car, but many people do need a car every day for commuting.QuotePublic transportation is the obvious way to commute to work, but it has convenience issues. It is also a one time improvement. Once everyone is commuting by public transportation, you've reached the minimum of energy use and pollution. So it's not a ongoing improvement. Renewable energy can be ongoing as more and more aspects of our energy use is converted.QuoteI don't know that we need to reduce energy use as much as simply finding ways to make it cleaner.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 11, 2022, 04:48:53 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on August 11, 2022, 04:37:33 pmThat sounds reasonable until you have to pay for it. What you describe is what is called a taxi. I think you will be surprised how small the part 'labour costs' is for a ride in a taxi. IOW: self driving cars as a rental form is not going to be cheaper. Especially if you are sensible with your money and buy a used car.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 11, 2022, 04:55:49 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on August 11, 2022, 04:48:53 pmI see no reason that a SDC would be more expensive than owning your own car, especially when you consider insurance, maintenance, breakdowns etc.A taxi driver around here makes about £15 per hour if busy, if they do 30 mph average that's 50p per mile. Most taxi companies charge about 80p-£1 per mile around here. And there's no reason an SDC would need to be a new vehicle - they could easily do 500k miles before being scrapped if designed right.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 11, 2022, 05:07:04 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on August 11, 2022, 04:48:53 pmUber and its ilk have grossly mislead people as to the actual costs of this type of arrangement by initially subsidizing their operations with investor cash. They aren't so cheap anymore as they try to transition to a profitable model. One of the things I've noticed is that they are allowing older and more decrepit cars to be used as their 'independent' drivers have realized they aren't getting paid enough to account for the depreciation and wear on a newer car.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 11, 2022, 05:21:38 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on August 11, 2022, 04:55:49 pmYMMV, but my all-in costs per mile are much less than $1/mile and taxi/ride services are much more than $1/mile every time I've used them. And while a service may be more convenient in some cases--airport runs, congested cities with no parking, etc, it is much less convenient for everyday use in a suburban environment. I drive my own car from my driveway to the dentist/grocery/whatever and I have zero waiting time and can change my itinerary at will. Again, YMMV.Why would an SDC last longer than any other car? Is that simply based on using the car more, so the time effects are lessened compared to mileage? 500K miles lifetime is going to require either a lot of maintenance or a different vehicle design even in a shortened timeframe due to high usage.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 11, 2022, 06:13:30 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on August 11, 2022, 04:55:49 pmMy car (reasonably sized station wagon) costs me around 0.21 euro per km all in while not skimping on any maintenance. Next car is going to be cheaper due to lower fuel consumption.

author: Miyuki
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 12, 2022, 01:37:21 pm
content: In Prague, there is for exampleAnytime CarsharingThey use Toyota hybridsJust have an app and use it as a key to the car. Can use any of their vehicles and can leave them anywhere in the city.And pay either by minutes used or for longer rentals for days + distance (both have fuel included)It is pretty convenient if the service does not have any issues or not have a problem with a car. As customer service has not the best review.If you do not use the car daily it is cheaper than owning a comparable car. And for most inner city commute is better to use public transport (not all places are reachable by public transport). So technically there is little reason to own a car except people want to own one as it is a status symbol.But this can work only in densely populated areas and not in outer suburbs and villages.And for daily drivers, this might be a good solution in some cases.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 12, 2022, 01:52:55 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on August 11, 2022, 06:13:30 pmAre you truly including all of the other costs of a car?- Space to park it, either on a driveway or an area with sufficient street parking, which influences where you can afford to live- Opportunity-cost and actual cost from servicing (take it in for a service, emissions test etc.) or if you do as much of this yourself, the time cost- Cost of a breakdown, like a large repair bill if something expensive goes wrong- Taxes and disincentives towards driving (parking fees, toll fees to enter city centres)I do think a well built electric SDC could achieve 500k miles with ordinary maintenance. The battery pack or chassis perforation from rust would be the most common reasons to scrap a vehicle IMO. Ultimately it would cost less to sporadically hire one than to leave a car on your driveway.PS I am pro car ownership for now as obviously SDCs are well off being practical, but I do think there will be a massive transition towards them once they become practical alternatives to owning a car.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 12, 2022, 11:14:23 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on August 12, 2022, 01:52:55 pmIts like you two have been here before.....Quote from: nctnico on March 27, 2022, 03:37:40 pmnctnico is on the side of parking should be provided for free/subsidised by others.Quote from: tom66 on August 12, 2022, 01:52:55 pmI know of some fossil vehicle models that routinely do 500k without major repairs, so it is possible to build vehicles like that.In Australia the fixed costs of ownership dominate over the variable costs for most people, which is a perverse incentive to drive more if you do own a car (and little political will to change that). At 12,000km/year (average use) in an older car the rough numbers averaged over the fleet of vehicles in my garageFuel: $1000Maintenance: $1200Registration: $950Comprehensive Insurance: $400Garage parking: $3200Depreciation: $1000Breakdowns: $20066c AUD/kmthe offical government allowance for car use (tax rebate) is 78c/kmhttps://www.ato.gov.au/Business/Income-and-deductions-for-business/Deductions/Deductions-for-motor-vehicle-expenses/Cents-per-kilometre-method/they know what it actually costs

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 12, 2022, 11:58:00 pm
content: Quote from: Someone on August 12, 2022, 11:14:23 pmAny examples? My (extensive) experience tells me that vehicles don't get that far without both a significant repair budget and a willingness to allow the overall condition of the vehicle to deteriorate a bit. I've seen some Prius taxis still running around at 300K miles, but there is some survivor bias built into those types of anecdotes.QuoteNo, they really don't. The tax agency numbers are typically based on reasonable costs for an average newer vehicle. Your numbers and their numbers may be wildly off the mark for others. In your example, registration and parking are over half your total cost. For me and many others, those are nearly nil.But my real puzzlement is how many people use their cars in a way that they canalwaysuse a service instead? And it has to be 'always', since the whole rationale requires divesting yourself of the personally owned car to save the fixed expenses. Suppose we want to drive to the beach and have a picnic, then drive up the coast and have dinner and then stay someplace? Where do we keep the chairs, beach umbrella and picnic basket while we're having dinner? Do we lug them all into a hotel room instead of leaving them in the trunk of our personal car?

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2022, 12:12:59 am
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on August 12, 2022, 11:58:00 pmYou in some other country, sure. That doesn't say that the Australian tax department has a bad handle on what a car costs to operate, its very very close to real world figures (have checked with an accountant who do this for their clients).That's what registration and parking actually cost, here in this location. They might be different for you, great, add in your averaged figures and provide some other data points. Some countries bias the cost more towards fixed costs and others more toward variable costs. But to say parking has zero cost is only true for those people using on street parking, which does have a cost to others and by using it for "free" is a subsidy on the operating cost of a vehicle.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2022, 12:29:04 am
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on August 12, 2022, 11:58:00 pmI'm not doxxing myself by providing the models of the vehicles I have. US cars and salty snow regions are famous for being short lived, out in arid Australia away from the salt breezes on the coast cars can and do last. In the local area we have many 25-40 year old cars in use as daily drivers, which is completely unimaginable for those from salt land/belt. The average age of a car in Australia is over 10 years old:https://www.abs.gov.au/statistics/industry/tourism-and-transport/motor-vehicle-census-australia/latest-releaseTaxi and fleet operators have been able to weed out the long running models pretty well. Its somewhat dependent on the owner/driver and how they treat their car, servicing and driving styles contribute which is where fleet/taxi operators tend to have better servicing records/efforts.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2022, 01:34:53 am
content: Quote from: Someone on August 13, 2022, 12:12:59 amIt isn't necessary to change countries to prove this wrong, at least in the way that I meant that it was wrong--there is no single number that works for everyone. All you would have to do is drive twice as far every year and your numbers would change drastically. So their numbers may work for many 'average' cases, but they can't work for everyone. Here the rate is $0.625/mile and I can easily beat that and my neighbor with his new SUV can't even dream of a number that low. As they say, YMMV. Perhaps an Uber driver with a newer economy sedan might get close to that over a 5-year period. But the tails are fat.QuoteUnless you are building a new civilization on Mars or are just waxing eloquent on philosophical economics, you need to talk about incremental costs when it comes to changing the status quo. I have a garage, a driveway and available street parking. My current and futureincrementalcosts for these are zero regardless of what the inputs were long ago or what expenses might be attributed to them in the future as they aren't going away even if my cars do. Many people will be in this same boat.I don't think specifying a vehicle would be doxxing your self, but I can give you simple numbers for our very-low-usage vehicle that we only use for long trips. 2010 Honda Accord, we've had it 12 years and driven it 42k miles. It cost $22500 and is now worth maybe $10K. All maintenance including a set of tires has been less than $2400. Insurance is ~ $500/year and registration is <$200. It gets 30MPG, so at $4/gallon (historical average) that isDepreciation $1000Insurance 500Maintenance 200Registration 200Fuel ~470Total 23702370/3500 = ~$0.68/mile.And that is for a nice, large car that I can sleep in if I have to, stores all of our luggage and beach stuff when we travel and is available at all times--even peak service times--just for me. Even better, the incremental cost of additional mileage is much lower than that 0.68 number so I have no issues going on a long trip if I want to. I'll be heading to Arizona on a 1000-mile roundtrip drive (to pick up my new Tek 576 from Goodwill) and the incremental cost of those miles will be less than $0.25/mile, just fuel, tire wear and a bit of oil life.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2022, 02:41:05 am
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on August 13, 2022, 01:34:53 amThat is yourchoiceof accounting method, which does nothing to make my explicitly statedchoiceof accounting method any less correct. Parking space has a market cost, if someone parking a car in a garage left it empty with nothing in its place that's a poor use of a resource, which has a opportunity cost since there are other productive (and paying) uses for that space. Incremental cost of nothing is plainly wrong when land and buildings have a cost, that should be amortised/apportioned over their use.If the council stopped all free on street parking and charged residents permits (as other areas do) I would pay lower rates or the services would increase, nothing needs to be rebuilt from scratch. Again, opportunity cost, vs your misleading assertion of no incremental value. Free parking is a huge subsidy to those who use it when land prices are around $1000/m2. An on road car parking space needs 14m2in the local regulations, so for an 8% return (with zero other costs) around $840 per year for the crappiest form of parking. I'd happily buy the street parking space in front of my house and extend the verge.Common situation in Australia where there is free on street parking... people fill their garages as storage and park in the driveway or on the street. People dont leave their buildings empty and derive no value from it.Quote from: bdunham7 on August 13, 2022, 01:34:53 amI explicitly stated average, and it happens that the vehicles here are almost on that average. Of course other country, other situation, other economics radically change the numbers.Quote from: bdunham7 on August 12, 2022, 11:58:00 pmThe Australian tax department do know what it costs to run a car in Australia, its very very close to the fairly average use case of the vehicles I operate.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2022, 03:45:58 am
content: Quote from: Someone on August 13, 2022, 02:41:05 amSo suppose I ditched all my cars and signed up for your perpetual SDC service. What productive and paying uses would I have for my garage and driveway? I don't live in SF or Manhattan where you can sell parking spaces for $100K+. And being able to acquire and store a larger oscilloscope collection does not count as a paying use!You can always use a 'choice' of accounting methods to prove a point, just like companies magically use 'goodwill' to even out their balance sheets when they are actually bankrupt from a future cash flow vantage point. We're talking about the practicality and economics of an imagined 500k maintenance free driverless shared car replacing my actual cars and everyone else's. If you are going to pencil it out to see if people will bite and if the numbers work, you have to use methods that describe what actually can and will happen in particular instances. Saying I'll be ahead by thousands every year because I'm not using my driveway is the same accounting that says a bankrupt company is going to be able to pay their bonds with shareholder equity and goodwill.Rideshares and taxis work well in lieu of personally owned vehicles in congested urban areas if other public transportation doesn't work well. Suburban USA, not so much. Rural USA, no way in hell. I'm guessing it isn't so much different in other countries that I've observed, but I'd be happy to defer to those that live there.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2022, 05:50:24 am
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on August 13, 2022, 03:45:58 amYou have paid for that garage space, but you refuse to apportion any cost to the car parking when you talk about the cost of owning/operating a car. Perhaps the purchase of the car should be "zero" as you already have it and aren't planning on selling it? Equally stupid.For people who have access to car sharing, they dont buy a garage in the first place. Hence the significant cost savings that you and others are trying to pretend aren't there. You're putting car parking "off the books" which is plainly incorrect as there is a cost.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2022, 09:19:10 am
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on August 13, 2022, 03:45:58 amLong term? You might turn that into a larger front garden, or you might build an extension there if permitted. Or use it for a project car, instead of a day to day car (people will still drive/use private cars for a long time.) Depends what you're into.Over time, properties with driveways have no more value than properties without them, if SDCs take off in the manner described. Larger properties can be built without the need for parking. Streets become safer when they're not lined with car parking.

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2022, 01:56:46 pm
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on August 13, 2022, 03:45:58 amGo and wash your mouth out with soap!

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2022, 02:31:39 pm
content: Quote from: Someone on August 13, 2022, 05:50:24 amThe difference between an economist and an accountant is that the economist will theorize that if something has value, the 'market' dictates that it must have an appropriate cost. The accountant will realize that both value and cost can be positive, zero or negative and that value and cost can be uncorrelated. Swimming pools are a good example here in SoCal. As I said already, your ideasmaywork for urban areas and new development where eliminating a drive and garage will actually result in a reduction of cost. But for my situation, there's no evidence that I actually paid for my driveway (meaning that an equivalent house sans parking could have been purchased for less) nor that if I did I could recover any value by not using it. In any case, unlike my car which I certainly could and would sell for cash, there's no reasonable cash recovery possible for my parking. You're proposing to save me money that I'm not spending in the future and am not certain that I spent in the past.There's all sorts of other reasons that your SDC-replacement theories are unworkable for the foreseeable future. Take the amount of non-revenue mileage as the car drives empty to get to the next pickup, vs my car that goes where I go. Again, in an urban environment that can be managed, but it is much harder in a suburban scene and impossible in rural areas. Your SDCs will be driving 40-100% more miles than private cars for equivalent use in my area.

author: sokoloff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2022, 04:33:40 pm
content: Quote from: edy on August 11, 2022, 04:02:04 pmWho the hell is driving around in a 5-ton vehicle today?!

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2022, 05:18:15 pm
content: Quote from: sokoloff on August 13, 2022, 04:33:40 pmWell it isn't 5 tons, but a Tesla Model X has a GVWR of over 6700lbs and qualifies for a significant tax credit (Section 179) for being over 3 tons.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2022, 05:35:44 pm
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on August 13, 2022, 05:18:15 pmIt's a ridiculous tax rule where trucks are exempt, and SUVs get classified as light trucks. It needs to go. I mean fair enough for a pickup if it's a legitimate business expense as in the bed is full of gravel or tools all the time, but an SUV...

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2022, 10:52:19 pm
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on August 13, 2022, 02:31:39 pmYou can keep picking out unusual/corner cases all you like, I put forward some very average figures and explicitly stated as such.For example:Quote from: bdunham7 on August 13, 2022, 01:34:53 amThat is an unbelievably low maintenance cost including tires. I can't even get an oil change for $200 (the oil wholesale is $100 already). Brand new cars with their "free" servicing don't even get that cheap onaverage:Quote from: Someone on July 27, 2022, 01:02:19 amAll this kicked off with what I was (again explicitly) responding to:Quote from: tom66 on August 12, 2022, 01:52:55 pmBut do keep trying to argue my referenced figures are "wrong", under your entirely different set of assumptions and accounting (that you haven't been making explicit).

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2022, 10:55:25 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on August 13, 2022, 05:35:44 pmThe US consumer vehicle market is completely distorted, and the majority of their consumers are happy with the cheap inefficient trucks that it produces. Leave them to it. But do fight if they try and push that in your country (Australia is now wash with US style "trucks" after the local manufactures died off).

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2022, 11:30:37 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on August 12, 2022, 01:52:55 pmYes. The majority of the costs (over 60%) are fuel costs anyway. After that tyres and suspension parts (I don't skimp on safety so I change the tyres long before they are at the wear indicators and I have the shock absorbers changed every 150k km). My previous car was even cheaper per km (around 0.18 euro per km) but that ran on diesel and the fuel prices where lower when I drove around in it. But again: I very very carefully select the car I buy -used- for low TCO.An expensive repair -say 800 euro- gets lost in the noise completely due to the large number of kilometers I drive with a car before buying another one. Basically I drive a car until it becomes uneconomical to have it repaired. For my next car I want it to have a 30% lower fuel consumption so I can keep hitting the 0.20 euro per km mark. Maybe even go below it depending on how many km I manage get out of the car.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2022, 11:32:26 pm
content: Quote from: Someone on August 13, 2022, 10:52:19 pmPerhaps $AUD are weaker than I thought? A 5-quart bottle of very high grade synthetic oil runs me $40, but I could cut that in half if I went with a cheaper brand. A set of good tires was $550. I suppose I could spend more on maintenance, but with very low usage this car has been pretty repair free. Yes, I do most of the work on my own, but if you want to count that as a 'cost', I want to add back in the time that I wait for your SDC service every time I summon it.I never said that your or your tax agency figures are 'wrong', just that individual costs can vary significantly. There may be some disagreement as to what 'costs' are, but my accounting is simple--if it goes on my credit card it is a cost. Otherwise, not so much. However, should you disagree, you can triple my costs if you like and you still won't be over the actual cost of any existing ride share service for the same trips and uses. So for it to work for me, your plan first requires a drastic cost reduction over a current money-losing model and then requires me to accept a service that has some shortcomings over having my own car.As for corner cases--what? All of rural and suburban USA is a 'corner case'? There's no way to avoid deadheading if you are using a reasonable number (not too many) of vehicles. I have and use the Uber app and I even get $15/mo in free Uber cash every month from a CC promotion, so it isn't as if I haven't tried it or am unaware of the costs and utility. Rideshare has its uses, such as when parking is problematicat the destination, or where I need to leave or pick up a car for service. But that doesn't help me recover any costs by losing any cars. There are probably at least a hundred million Americans who are situated similarly or worse when it comes to using their own cars vs rideshare. I don't know their per-mile costs, but I suspect most of them drive more miles than I do.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2022, 12:07:37 am
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on August 13, 2022, 11:32:26 pmPrices are similar over here. An oil change with full synthetic oil and filter sets me back almost 80 euro. Not worth doing it myself.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2022, 02:06:26 am
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on August 13, 2022, 11:32:26 pmhow much more clearly do we have to say this....Quote from: tom66 on August 12, 2022, 01:52:55 pmKeep talking off in the other direction, its just you making noise at this point. The argument has been carefully framed and explained, unlike your meander up the garden path to some backwater.Quote from: bdunham7 on August 13, 2022, 11:32:26 pmThe US has had (driven) rideshare wider/longer than other western countries, its nothing new. You dont think "oh I'd like to do something" and wait while staring at the wall. Like anything else (buying a car, fuelling/maintaining/storing it) you think ahead, order a ride share to turn up when you are planning to need it. But this is your corner case of rural/dispersed living.... which isn't representative of the majority of people living on the planet, who live in cities where a distributed transport system is minutes away just like taxis. Shared cars are fairly easily available here, you can walk around the corner and pick one up.The basics are already there and routine/well known. It is the economics that will change it over. While people keep imaging cars are cheap to run because they ignore/discount all the fixed costs and only look at the incremental cost of fuel it massively distorts that. So yes, I'll keep pushing back and pointing out how the private motor centric viewpoint is blinkered, misleading, entrenched, and against most individuals financial interest.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2022, 04:53:22 am
content: Quote from: Someone on August 14, 2022, 02:06:26 amThere are shared cars in select places here too, as well as those electric scooters laying around in random spots. But I'd guess (by a fair amount of observation with local knowledge...) that fewer than 20% of the people in my state (an 0% in my county) could switch to rideshare or shared car services and eliminate their vehicles. And that 20% would include the ones in urban areas that already don't have vehicles. The remainder--just in my state--would be 31 million people, more than the entire population of Australia. Not a corner case! As for the rest of the world, yeah there are some populated spots where owning a car is a huge pain in the ass, but in most of those areas there is workable public transportation already. In addition, driving can be miserable and dangerous, so lots of people already don't have cars. People have already made those decisions based on circumstances, taxis have been around forever and I don't think an SDC service is going to move the needle either way. You show me an SDC that works in Delhi and I might change my mind.QuoteI wonder what we are actually arguing about as we both came up with pretty low figures (less than $1 USD per mile) running costs for our cars even with entirely different methods. However, when you are imagining how the SDC is going to change the blinkered, entrenched 'private motor centric viewpoint', remember that I and a lot of other people can easily afford our cars no matter how you figure the costs. Indeed my low costs are just habit and happenstance--I may end up buying a much more expensive car and my costs may go way up and I won't care. We like having our own cars that we're used to with the seats adjusted correctly and the beach chairs already in the trunk. Even if you convince me that the SDC service will be 1/3 the price and you give me free oscilloscopes to fill up my garage, I'm not going to bite. I'm pretty sure at least 30 million people here agree with me.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2022, 08:12:47 am
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on August 14, 2022, 04:53:22 amUS has been car centric since the 50's, its part of the culture. That is one barrier, and something entirely different to density/distance/availability which is what you started brining up.Quote from: bdunham7 on August 13, 2022, 11:32:26 pmHowever, seems you're just going to keep arguing to the ends of the earth about how your US car centric view is the "majority"....Attached is an example density of the US, the majority (within the US, before considering the 95% of the world population outside those borders) live in dense suburbs or cities not the acre+ block per person you're imagining from the mass media representations. "Exploratory analysis of suburban land cover and population density in the U.S.A". The majority of the world live in cities, the majority of the US live in cities.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2022, 02:23:49 pm
content: We've (almost, once the solicitors finish the paperwork) bought a house and we wanted somewhere with a driveway partially because we both plan to get EVs but also because we don't want to street park our cars. Around here the average house with a drive seems to cost about £30,000 more than one without (I'm comparing to places where it would be impossible to install a driveway, due to no front garden for instance.) I don't know how this varies across the world - I suspect places like the USA in suburbia land is so cheap it may have little impact but in denser areas it would have an impact.If SDCs do come to pass while we still own the place we'd consider, within the realms of planning permission, extending the house into where that driveway is. May not be possible now due to regulations, but in 20 years if everyone has empty driveways, it could be a big shift.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2022, 06:12:18 pm
content: Pretty good video summarising ICCT findings. Spoiler: battery EV or hydrogen EV (powered by genuine carbon-neutral hydrogen) are the ways we reach Paris agreement / 1.5C by 2050.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2022, 06:26:28 pm
content: OMGAnother 'truth' video from YoutubeYou do realise that 2050 is still over a quarter of a century away? A lot, and I mean a LOT can happen during that time.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2022, 06:36:17 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on August 14, 2022, 06:26:28 pmDo you just react instinctively to things like this? Is it like an area of your brain dedicated to "yuck, climate change stuff"?If you actually read the post or watched the video before you reacted (hard, I know right?) it is a summary of a scientific report by ICCT looking at the whole lifecycle emissions of ICE, EV, biofuel ICE, hydrogen, etc. and modelling this in 2030 too. It includes manufacture of the batteries. Emissions from the power plant powering the EV. It shows pretty conclusively there's no way to get to Paris goals without EV or hydrogen (but not natural gas derived hydrogen).It's kind of scary how close 2050 is: if the average car has a lifespan of say 15 years then 2030 is really the absolute last date that we can sell a new ICE car, and we should be getting rid of them for good from 2040 or so.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2022, 07:16:33 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on August 14, 2022, 06:36:17 pmNo, it is a reaction to people pulling random videos from Youtube to prove some kind of point that doesn't exist. I wish people stopped doing that and stuck to actual science that can be verified. Every year KPMG puts together a nice report about what the automotive industry may look like in the near future. That is a far more interesting read (and it doesn't claim to be the truth; just a detailed report on what is going on).There are so many wheels in motion that it is impossible to predict what the world will look like after 25 years. Just look at how the world has changed during the last 25 years. Mobile phones... flat TVs... internet... . The last few years alone have been quite a ride. Whatever long term plans are being made, these are going to be overtaken and obsoleted by technological and geopolitical developments.BTW: your reaction is so typical for the 'cancel culture'. Suddenly I'm a climate change denier while there is absolutely no ground for that. You won't find any post from me on the entire internet saying that climate change doesn't exist because I never wrote something like that. I have been around long enough to notice the climate is changing by myself.

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2022, 07:31:15 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on August 14, 2022, 07:16:33 pmAlternatively look howlittlethe world has changed in 25 years. Twenty five years ago I had a mobile phone, I'd been running an ISP's network for two years, and flat panel TVs were starting to replace CRTs.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2022, 12:07:34 am
content: Quote from: Someone on August 14, 2022, 08:12:47 amActually, here's what I said on that subject:QuoteSo I'll just speak on what I know well, the US. My 'corner' of the world (California) accounts for ~0.5% of world population and ~3% of the worlds motor vehicles, IIRC. And both electric vehicles and rideshare services in modern form first appeared here in any significant volume. So it isn't a minor player or a small, local anomaly.QuoteSo if I understand correctly, we are discussing the viability of an SDC service supplanting private cars to the point where users would willingly no longer own a car. As I said previously, newly developed areas or places where people already don't own cars would be different as SDC services would just be taking market share from taxis and other public transportation. The city that I live in has a density of about 2k/km2, so right in the middle of that big peak on your graph. LA County is about 1k/km2, but the majority of it is probably about the same as my city because there is a lot of undeveloped area. In my estimation, almost everyone to the left (lower density) of me on that graph and probably a good chunk to the right--say up to 5k/km2--would absolutely not give up their cars for an SDC service, even if they might use the service on occasion. So about 2/3 of the US population or nearly 200 million cars aren't going away. That's based on my observations about how people use their cars, cost and convenience. For some, cost would be the issue and those people will be the ones that manage their per-mile costs to be much lower than is achievable by a for-profit commercial service. For some, like me, it would be convenience and the way I use vehicles. Keep in mind that we've had Uber longer than anyone and I've used enough to evaluate its pros and cons.The core problem with these ideas, IMO, is that you aresimply replacing a car with a different car. My cost example, as low as it was, was my most expensive per-mile car. We have a BEV that we use for the majority of our driving and the incremental cost of keeping it around is trivial. Even when Uber was subsidized by investor cash and by drivers not understanding how much their (required) newer cars were depreciating and wearing, they were much more expensive than just driving our own. And for me and a lot of others, cost isn't the primary factor--as I said, you could triple my costs and it wouldn't affect my decision nor that of any of my neighbors AFAIK.So to sum it all up: An SDC service as opposed to a privately owned car (which, b/t/w, could also be an SDC if they ever actually produce one) will always end up driving more miles simply because there is always at least some deadheading. Because of that and the nature of a for-profit operation where there is always at least some overhead, staff, etc, the SDC service will always have a higher per-mile cost unless you try to add back in things like the cost of parking at home. Thus your viable cases for an SDC service are where parking is unavailable or prohibitively expensive (on an incremental basis, not paid-in like mine) or the paid-in parking owner can somehow recover value from the unused parkingandthere are not good public transportation options alreadyandthe users don't mind other aspects of shared usage, like not being able to keep their beach chairs in the trunk.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2022, 12:45:05 am
content: Quote from: tom66 on August 14, 2022, 02:23:49 pmIt's about a million dollars an acre around here, but the plots were laid out long ago so there is little opportunity for change. People have and do convert their garages to other uses, but the driveways remain. Newer high-density developments can be more compact, but I haven't seen any without parking around here yet. Typical new high-density single-family homes are 2 or 3 stories with an 18" side yard and a short driveway in the front yard. You could convert the garages and park in the driveway if permitted (HOAs can be silly), and even if you didn't have a car the concrete driveway is just about as usable as anything else--so losing the cars still doesn't net you anything.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2022, 02:17:20 am
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on August 15, 2022, 12:07:34 amIf you can't imagine how a share car (self driving or not) is different to a taxi or mass transit, then you're never going to get it.Quote from: bdunham7 on August 15, 2022, 12:07:34 amWe get it, you want to cost parking as zero. That's explicitly what we said is misleading, as parking has a cost. Private cars are parked up and doing nothing more than 95% of the time, storing all those cars while they are doing nothing is a cost to the individual and society. The promise of car sharing is that the number of vehicles required will be reduced, and the fixed operating costs (parking, registration, etc) are divided among many users which should more than offset the additional repositioning movements.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2022, 08:22:20 am
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on August 15, 2022, 12:07:34 amWe can't really predict human behaviour here, there's a big attraction to cars as an aspect of class. But I don't see the per-mile cost as being more. A typical private car spends 95% of its time parked up, slowly deprecating. An SDC can use a lot more of that time, say, pretty much all the time between 6am and midnight, with maybe one or two charging stops depending on mileage. Deadheading would assume that the car returns to the same location to pick up passengers, e.g. going between a city and an airport. But why would an SDC not just pick up the next car-passenger pair? If cars are less common anywhere, there will be a journey. It's just taken you to work, now it picks up Betty to go to the shops, and collects Dave from the shops to go back home, and then takes John to the airport... The connectivity is complete with very limited void periods; and if there are any void periods, these can be used to charge, for cleaning, or just idling (but at very little cost, as the driver's not hourly!)The only reason (imo) Uber is as expensive as it is, is because there are limited numbers of drivers who need to be paid a wage. When you change that to an allocation of SDC vehicles then it becomes feasible to offer the service at a much lower cost.Think about it this way, if say the average CA car is $40,000 and lasts 15 years and does the average of 12k miles per year, then per mile depreciation alone is 22 cents per mile (that's more than nct's quoted cost on depreciation alone, but this is a new car.) Plus you need parking, insurance, fuel, maintenance, have breakdowns and, if you really want to look at it from an economists lens, there's the opportunity-cost of buying that $40k car over putting that in your pension or going on holiday more often. Even if you don't allocate your driveway's cost, what about the places you go? Even if the parking is free, someone is paying for that, and that *is* reflected in whatever you buy. That could be better allocated if cars didn't need to be stationary for so much of their lives.OK, so what if you buy a car half-way through its life but because it's a little undesirable it only costs $10k? The maths on depreciation looks better, as you buy at the more linear part of the deprecation curve, but you then have the unknown of prior service history (I've bought a car before that later transpired to have mostly fraudulent history.) You have to spend e.g. that $10k twice as often because the car lasts half as long on average, and you have potentially higher risks of getting a proper lemon (like I did!) Of course, the used car market is funny now, and demand has shifted more into used cars, raising their price. It's still probably cheaper, but harder to work out. Still, about 40% of cars on the road are leased in the UK, suggesting that there's a strong bias towards 4-year and newer cars.An SDC may, say, with sensors and car computer cost, say, $50k (I figure you save a lot of money by making it not compatible for human drivers), but it could do 500k miles before being scrapped. (I think this is feasible with general maintenance; age is worse than mileage, in general.) Half the cost per mile, but with NONE of the other mentioned costs, just "tap on an app and go". Instead of spending 95% of its time parked up, the SDC is spending only 33% of its time parked up. It's doing perhaps 13x more mileage per year, so it reaches its mileage limit in about 3 years. At which point, it may get a new battery pack, or it might be allocated into different service e.g. shorter routes, or be recycled. Since the parts only need to last, say up to 5 years at a time, it may be possible to optimise them for higher mileage instead of age. Certainly, it's clear that buses can do many years of service with just general maintenance.

author: sokoloff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2022, 12:02:10 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on August 15, 2022, 08:22:20 amThe average car in the US is 12.2 years old. (I think, but am not sure, that this is the average of registered cars.) Given that CA is one of the better climates for car longevity, I think it's far to estimate that cars last quite a bit longer than 15 years, likely bringing the figure you calculate down to $0.12-15.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2022, 01:55:08 pm
content: Quote from: sokoloff on August 15, 2022, 12:02:10 pmIndeed. Cars don't get scrapped after 12 years but sold to a new owner. Typically cars get exported to drive around for another 15 to 20 years in a different country (or in case of the US: maybe a different state).You'd have to look at the age distribution for the cars in order to draw any meaningfull conclusions. Likely a lot of cars leave the market to be exported at a relatively young age but that also means that such cars have not devalued to 0.

author: Bassman59
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 16, 2022, 03:25:09 pm
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on August 13, 2022, 05:18:15 pmAlso in the "not 5 tons but ..." category are all of the big pickup trucks and SUVs I see around here. F250, Silverado, etc can all easily weigh in at 6000 lbs.

author: gnuarm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 16, 2022, 11:53:21 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on August 15, 2022, 01:55:08 pmI haven't followed this to know the context exactly, but as BEVs progress, the cost advantages will become more pronounced. With the difference in operating costs, it will become advantageous to scrap ICE vehicles before their "use by" date has expired. In 10 years, virtually all cars sold will be BEVs. Over the course of another 10 years, we won't see very many ICE left on the roads. There may remain a few diehards who want to drive for 12 hours with no breaks (the only use case where ICE has an advantage) and insist ICE is the only answer, the 1%. The life expectancy of ICE vehicles will be dramatically reduced.The rest of us will happily drive BEVs and not worry about the obsolete junkers we used to drive.

author: sokoloff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 17, 2022, 12:59:38 am
content: I will be shocked if in 10 years 50% of new cars sold are pure BEVs. In fact, I’ll take that bet, specifically for US new car sales.I have one BEV (a 2015 LEAF) and one ICE (2005 CR-V) as daily drivers. Rust will kill the CR-V before other economics will and I expect to replace it with something around 6-8 years old and with an ICE (perhaps a PHEV) when that time comes and expect they will be economical to keep running come 2032.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 17, 2022, 02:18:47 am
content: Quote from: sokoloff on August 17, 2022, 12:59:38 amI'll take that bet too, and I'm as pro-EV as they come.The reality has already hit the EV industry head on. Batteries have not plummeted in price like predicted, even with all the Gigafactory hype, and I don't see this changing much this decade. Certainly not by the half order of magnitude drop in price required, not to mention production capability.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 17, 2022, 03:16:27 am
content: Quote from: gnuarm on August 16, 2022, 11:53:21 pmSome bold predictions there. But aside from the obvious argument that capital costs generally outweigh running costs for the typical car buyer, I think you might want to have a look at what cars are actually being scrapped currently (for reasons other than being totaled in collisions). For many BEVs, a failed battery is the end of the road. For many ICEs, the same may be true for transmissions, but that usually applies to much older and less valuable models.

author: gnuarm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 17, 2022, 03:54:14 am
content: Quote from: sokoloff on August 17, 2022, 12:59:38 amIt's the US and the EU where this is most likely. BEVs still have a sticker price penalty, which the more affluent can afford. The battery is expensive enough that it's presently hard to make a low end BEV. But that will improve. Remember Moore's Law? Still going strong after how many years? Same thing with batteries. As the number of BEVs sold increases, the more money will be poured into battery research.QuoteMaybe in 2032 you can still run an ICE, but by 2040 gasoline will be hard to come by. The distribution channels require constant use and with less than 5% of the cars on the road being ICE, gas will be hard to find. Gas stations will close and you will have to buy gas in special places, industrial parks and maybe airports.Gasoline will end up in the same position hydrogen is now, no real infrastructure to support it.

author: gnuarm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 17, 2022, 04:03:38 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on August 17, 2022, 02:18:47 am"plummeted in price like predicted"Pure nonsense. Who predicted that? This is like the climate change denialists who tout the claims of the "world ending" in 10 years. No one who is credible has said that.If you believe in basic math, you will be able to take the numbers for the last several years and see the >50% annual growth in sales. Project that forward and you will see that in 10 years nearly all new cars sold will be BEVs.In 2018, literally every car company in the world started scrambling to produce new BEV models after seeing the success of the Tesla model 3. A car that continues to have a year long order backlog even after raising the introductory price from the $30s to the $40s. The Ford and other offerings have similar backlogs.The only possible monkey wrench I see is the possibility of raw materials, such as lithium, limiting production rates. I expect most BEV companies are working on this hard. I believe GM has said they have it covered until 2025, but that's only three years, so I'm a bit worried.It may turn out that with lithium, "We're gonna need a bigger boat!"

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 17, 2022, 04:04:31 am
content: Quote from: gnuarm on August 17, 2022, 03:54:14 amNo, Moore's Law doesn't apply to everything, sometimes there are hard limits. It doesn't even apply to semiconductors anymore as reality has been lagging the (thrice revised b/t/w) 'Law' of doubling density every two years. Remember the Concorde SST? Well, it turned out that supersonic travel continued to be prohibitively difficult and expensive, so we're pretty much stuck going about the same speed as the original 707. There has been tremendous effort put into battery technology for decades what we've achieved is what we have. Double the power density at half the cost? That will take a miraculous breakthrough. Will it happen? IDK, but it ain't no sure thing.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 17, 2022, 04:09:20 am
content: Quote from: gnuarm on August 17, 2022, 04:03:38 amProject it forward another 10 years and every person on the planet will have 42 BEVs. Or something on that order. Math is tricky like that. Don't be an economist, use math wisely!

author: gnuarm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 17, 2022, 04:20:18 am
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on August 17, 2022, 04:04:31 amNot sure why you are bringing the Concord into it. That had totally different economics which mostly depended on the wealthy being willing to pay triple the price to cut their flight time in half.The point of mentioning Moore's law is about the improvements in manufacturing continue to this day. There's a similar rule that as you increase production a factor of 10, the costs are cut by a factor of 2. We will be seeing a tenfold increase in BEV battery production over the next 10 years which will drop the costs dramatically.We've seen this with virtually everything in mass production, such as LCD TVs, solar cells and many other things. There is zero reason why this won't apply to batteries. The efforts we've made in battery technology have been trivial in comparison, because there is so much more money involved at this point. $50 per phone vs. $10,000+ per car... no contest. Money is being poured into battery research by companies who never had an interest or knowledge, like oil companies. Yeah, I was told recently that the big oil companies are spending boatloads of money on battery research!

author: gnuarm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 17, 2022, 04:20:52 am
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on August 17, 2022, 04:09:20 amNo, math is not tricky, just people.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 17, 2022, 05:47:40 am
content: Quote from: gnuarm on August 17, 2022, 04:03:38 amBingo. Throw in home and grid storage demand and your supply problems get harder.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 17, 2022, 07:32:44 am
content: The VW ID.3 comes with a 58kWh battery and outside of chip shortage times you could get one for 26,000 EUR. It's nearly the same capacity battery that one of the variants of the Model S offered.The Nissan Leaf had a 24kWh battery, smaller motor, worse build quality and cost more than 26,000 EUR new, 8 years ago.It's madness to say battery prices haven't fallen.That said, will they fall so far that a 10,000 EUR econobox with a 40kWh battery is practical? Possibly not. That segment of the market may just disappear.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 17, 2022, 07:50:43 am
content: Quote from: tom66 on August 17, 2022, 07:32:44 amDon't forget the government subsidies.Yes they have fallen, but not as dramatically as required to make EV's closer to parity with ICE cars. A new small ICE car in the Uk still costs half that.And market forces are currently driving battery prices back up.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 17, 2022, 08:19:39 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on August 17, 2022, 07:50:43 amThe Leaf had a larger subsidy - IIRC about £6k in the UK when it came out. The ID.3 has no grant at all any more, though when it first launched it qualified for up to £3.5k grant.The ID.3 is best compared to a Golf - it costs about £10k more than the equivalent Golf - which is a lot, don't get me wrong. Batteries still aren't *cheap*, but they definitely have fallen substantially.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 17, 2022, 08:25:14 am
content: Quote from: tom66 on August 17, 2022, 08:19:39 amOf course they have, there is a big market for them now.But have not, and probaly will not drop enough for Joe Average to think EV's a no-brainer compared to their ICE car.Not to mention that EV's simply aren't practically suitable to a large percentage of the population. And I don't see that changing either until you can get a large range at a cheap price AND the ability to recharge in a few minutes.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 17, 2022, 09:04:36 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on August 17, 2022, 08:25:14 amExcept that is from the mindset of like for like replacement (and the often repeated even on here "My car is my car and I won't use different vehicles on different days") yet the majority of households have multiple cars and the vast majority of those can swap out one of their cars without any practical impact.https://www.epa.gov/greenvehicles/what-if-one-your-cars-was-electricThe low hanging fruit is already a huge market, and likely the majority of households.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 17, 2022, 09:14:31 am
content: Not to mention a proper car sharing infrastructure would eliminate a lot of that anxiety.VW had/have a scheme where if you want to go on a really long trip and you have an EV you can rent a dirty diesel from them - and I think 1 week's rental per year of lease is free.But I guess it's the same reason people drive big SUVs. They want a car for that 1% of the time when they go to the airport, or on a long road trip etc, but most of the time they use it to commute to work and back or get shopping etc with one or two passengers. And it's really a waste of resources because it's *hard* to share a car. Improving that is really important.

author: Miyuki
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 17, 2022, 10:19:15 am
content: Current Lithium based batteries practically hit the raw material cost so they won't be significantly cheaper. Rather might even go a little up.Maybe Sodium based ones in 10 or so years, can offer a solution, but who knows.And when I look at the price of BEVs without subsidy it is not niceVolkswagen ID.3 58kWh current price 48-50k €Nissan Leaf 39kWh 35k € for the cheapest model and 59kW starts at 43k €Hyundai IONIQ 5 58 kWh starts at 47k €Kia EV6 58kWh starts at 52k €Those are not affordable cars for the average Joe

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 17, 2022, 10:35:31 am
content: The price of all cars is crazy inflated right now due to Chipageddon, high natural gas prices, supply chain issues etc. The lead time for an ID.4 for instance is 14 months.On that basis I don't think you can look at the price of any of these right now and draw conclusion about the long term price stability. Li-ion batteries are under $150/kWh so even a 58kWh pack is less than $10k in cell cost: this is a small factor of overall vehicle price (for 50kEUR car!!)

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 17, 2022, 11:20:35 am
content: Quote from: Miyuki on August 17, 2022, 10:19:15 amThe solid state li-ion is supposed to drop the price of the cells by half. And integration and electronics will be cheaper, as they could use higher voltage battery packs, like lead acid, without cell balancing.But even used car prices went up like 30% in the past 1-1.5 years. I could sell my car for almost the same amount (80% let's say)than I bought it used 5 years ago.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 17, 2022, 11:57:01 am
content: Quote from: tom66 on August 17, 2022, 09:14:31 am“You’ll own nothing. And you’ll be happy.”The WEF just came out recently and said they won't want you to own a car.Yeah, nah.

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 17, 2022, 12:47:20 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on August 17, 2022, 11:57:01 amThe richest people in the world must be very unhappy thenQuote from: EEVblog on August 17, 2022, 11:57:01 amIs this coming from Klaus Schwab? I have heard some conspiracy talk about the "great reset" where a 4th industrial revolution has to come and create a more sustainable and green economy and governments get total control over you by granting and taking away social security privileges. No idea what is true here and don't want to read the book Klaus Schwab wrote.But keeping the people happy won't come from them owning nothing and being controlled to the last breath they take. See what happened during covid when the governments turned on the screws. People where not happy

author: sokoloff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 17, 2022, 01:21:04 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on August 17, 2022, 09:14:31 amIt sure is hard to share a car.Part of the reason that it's hard to share a long-range car that people might want for 2 weeks out of 52 is that a lot of people will want that car around the same time (summer holidays and Christmas trips). I don't think there's any amount of demand management that's going to make people happy to make their winter family visit on the 4th week in January instead of over Christmas and New Years.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 17, 2022, 09:56:57 pm
content: Quote from: sokoloff on August 17, 2022, 01:21:04 pmWhich is why very few people are suggesting that every household will use exclusively share cars. Share cars, easily and economically replace cars that are used infrequently. There is already a demand management in place which works for: airlines, hire cars, rental accommodation, the price goes up during cultural "peak" demand. Even at those higher rates, it still makes economic sense to hire/rent. Or are you the 0.001% who own their own jet and international holiday accommodation for each season? Convenience has a very high cost when all that is being held operational for use only a tiny fraction of the time.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 17, 2022, 11:50:02 pm
content: Quote from: Someone on August 17, 2022, 09:56:57 pmIt's turtles all the way down.People like owning stuff, and that will always trickle up the ladder depending on your your wealth level and desire.For majority of people the car ranks right up there with owning a house.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2022, 03:50:38 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on August 17, 2022, 11:50:02 pmroughly 1/3 of Australians own a house, 1/3 loan leveraged, 1/3 renting. Similarly 1/4 of people with a car have it on finance. A house generally appreciates (over recent history, bubble etc) while a car is almost always a depreciating asset which is where it falls apart on an ownership model.Its a social pressure to own those things, and people buy in despite the economics saying otherwise. Then convince themselves and others that it was the "right" thing to do with the sorts of misleading arguments flying about in here. Having been in all the different combinations of above (rent/leverage/own house, rent/own/share car) there can be situations where one is more profitable than the other. Trying to make generalizations across "majority" when that is mostly based on feelings/desires rather than financial basics, you can say it all you like. I'll point out how its to (the majorities) financial detriment.

author: gnuarm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2022, 04:04:34 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on August 17, 2022, 05:47:40 amGrid storage is not likely to be lithium based going forward. Autos and other "mobile" devices have a specific need for high energy density, both by volume and by weight. Grid storage does not. Other battery technologies will dominate that market.Currently vanadium flow batteries are looking very good for stationary storage. I just read something about a very large installation that is going in. I believe it was in an article about how the technology was developed with US funds, and somehow ended up in a Chinese factory. It seems that is being corrected with the license being pulled.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 18, 2022, 04:09:02 am
content: Quote from: Someone on August 18, 2022, 03:50:38 amYou don't hear horror stories about people paying cash for a car (lemons aside, warranties generally cover that). But there are countless horror stories of people coming-a-gutsa on car loans. They literally make drama stories on the current affairs shows with monotinous regularly.If you have the available cash, buy the car, it's pretty uch ano-brainer unless you have other cricumstances like you move or change jobs often or don't have the lifestyle etc. Yes it depreciates with time, but it's also a cash insurance buffer that should SHTF, you can sell it and get instant cash. But if SHTF financially and you are locked into a car repayment loan, good luck.Only with hindsight can you look back and calculate the overall financial analysis. And sometimes, that's not the point.I would strongly advise people, as first order advice, don't get a car loan. You are way better off buying a junker outright than going into a replayment plan for a new (or heaven forbid, used) car.

author: gnuarm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2022, 04:14:54 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on August 17, 2022, 08:25:14 amWhich "large percentage" of the population would find BEVs impractical?I often hear how the UK has far too many cars parking on the street making it impossible to charge at home. That's not actually the case, since level 2 charging can be placed anywhere, literally. The cord can be with the car, leaving only a connector on the EVSE, so little opportunity for stealing the copper (much harder to do when in use).I think many people simply are defeatist, not being willing to even think about the problems. Bottom line is BEVs are happening, and attitudes will change as people see them adopted widely.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2022, 04:22:48 am
content: Quote from: Someone on August 18, 2022, 03:50:38 amIt's not social pressure, its more like not wanting to be annoyed with having to deal with other people's issues on a daily basis. I don't want to have to deal with a car that has other people's fast food wrappers and cat vomit in it. OTOH, if I happen to eat lunch on the road or my cat throws up in the car, maybe I'd like to wait a week before cleaning it up. That's a big reason why people like to own their cars (and houses), at least in my case. If you like your utopian model, then go for it. Just don't expect to be able to impose it on the majority of the population.QuoteWhile the facts as stated are more or less true, this canard is actually one of the most annoying bits of bad financial advice I hear over and over. Neither houses nor cars are normal investment assets and shouldn't be thought about that way, unless of course the suddenly appreciate at an unexpectedly high rate and you are in a position to sell them for a profit. Whether the car 'depreciates' or just wears out really shouldn't matter much. Both the house and th car are expenses--you pay to have a place to live and you pay to have transportation.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 18, 2022, 04:23:40 am
content: Quote from: gnuarm on August 18, 2022, 04:14:54 amIt is actually the case for those that have investigated it and say it's a problem. I hear this all the time.

author: gnuarm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2022, 04:27:25 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on August 17, 2022, 11:50:02 pmNot the same thing. People in cities often don't own cars. They "share" by using public transport, or taxis or walking/riding bikes. The idea of car sharing is not bad and many people, who live in apartment complexes with convenient access to many facilities would be happy to share cars.Yeah, when everyone wants a car at the same time, some won't get one and they will have to rent or make other plans. It doesn't seem like an unworkable plan though. If you want to fly around the holidays, you need to book well in advance, otherwise you don't go. That doesn't mean people buy their own airplanes.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2022, 04:28:12 am
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on August 18, 2022, 04:22:48 amLol, spoken like someone who has never shared or rented a car. I'm not pushing utopia on anyone, just pointing out the blinkered thinking that leads people to incorrectly believe a car is cheap convenience.

author: gnuarm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2022, 04:30:11 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on August 18, 2022, 04:23:40 amSo anecdotal and not anything we can actually debate.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 18, 2022, 04:31:51 am
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on August 18, 2022, 04:22:48 amAs someone who lives in typical small suburban street, I can't see how renting a communal car would possibly be an option. Even if I was able to convince everyone in our small dead end street to abandon owning their car and having a rental (or even two) that gets left in the street just for our use, you'd constantly have everyone wanting to use it at the same time to drop off and pick up kids, go the gym, sports, shopping, weekends etc. Not to mention work.It's insanely impractical and people would be jack of it after a week.And then you are almost certainly financially better off just buying a junker outright and having it to yourself.There are hug reason why the majority own their own car (finance or otherwise). The communal rental thing will always be a niche.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2022, 04:34:29 am
content: Quote from: gnuarm on August 18, 2022, 04:14:54 amI know multiple people in my town who have no parking - they own cars, and they own a house or rent a flat, and have no assured place to park and with that, no place to charge a BEV except sitting at a (currently rare, mostly slow) public charger.It is a problem, whether you want to admit it or not. One which must be solved, not handwaved away.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 18, 2022, 04:35:41 am
content: Quote from: gnuarm on August 18, 2022, 04:30:11 amI know people who have said it, and in some cases, have seen their actual living situtations myself, and I know it's true.I don't want to debate it, it's a literal truth that many people do not have the ability to practically charge an EV. And it's often not easy to get such infrastructure installed due to physical access, cost, council regulations etc.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2022, 04:45:44 am
content: Quote from: Someone on August 18, 2022, 04:28:12 amI've rented cars as needed for 40 years. Although I've been pleased at times with how inexpensive they were (not lately, b/t/w) it still costs more than having my own car would, at least on my home turf. I haven't tried a shared car service, but here's a recent review of a local company, ZipCar which is pretty much in line with my expectations.Absolutely terrible. I will never be a customer again. Received a car reeking of weed, with gum stuck to the windshield, sand all in the trunk, and crumbled food all over the floor (Saturday). Submitted the complaint with images via the app, AS INSTRUCTED IN THE APP. Nothing happened.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2022, 04:59:57 am
content: Quote from: gnuarm on August 18, 2022, 04:14:54 amPeople that live in apartments or other rented accommodations with assigned parking and landlords that will not permit the installation of chargers (often for totally legitimate reasons, b/t/w). People who have a budget of under $10-15K for a used car and need a reasonable daily range. Those two alone account for a pretty large swath of the US population.Even L2 charging isn't free or anywhere near free once you price in the wiring to it. Streetside charging, even if only outlets, is a pretty big capital outlay. I'm not sure there is enough copper available.QuoteThey certainly do if they can afford them. I would buy a Honda Jet if I could. Unfortunately anything I could afford would only be recreational and not practical transportation.

author: Bassman59
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2022, 05:17:47 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on August 18, 2022, 04:09:02 amObviously things have changed recently, but for many years, people with "good credit" could get new car loans with interest rates below 1% and sometimes even literally 0%. Now of course the car manufacturers offering these loans did so because they knew it would sell cars, and the low/no interest rate would make the upsell into a higher trim level or into a higher-end model easier. Financially savvy buyers could take advantage of these rates and get the car they needed and preserve cash flow. Let's see, would I rather just hand over $20,000 in one lump sum or pay $417/month for four years? (I assume a decent down payment.)Also re: new vs used, that 0.99% rate is for new cars bought by people with "excellent" credit. If your situation is such that you will be a used car and the loan rate is 8%, then sure, paying cash, even if the car in question has to be a junker to be affordable, is the better option. Where it gets weird is when the price for used cars coming off lease, so three years old, cost slightly under the cost of new, but because the car is used, loan rates will be higher, so in terms of monthly payments and total cost of the loan, the new car might very well end up being less expensive.And the argument against the junker is that you're buying someone else's problems. You can budget for a car payment, but can you budget a surprise $2,000 bill (or whatever) for a new transmission? Do you value reliability? Do you have the skills, the tools, the time and the space to do the repairs yourself? Can you be without the car for a day, or for the week it takes for you to repair it?Everyone has different answers to those questions, because everyone's situation is different.

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2022, 05:39:17 am
content: Lived in Delft for 10 years and left about 26 years ago to move to a new build location in Hoogvliet and after living there for 4 years moved on to Nunhem a small town in Limburg and now in rural France for already 10 years I have some insights in car ownership and parking over time.In old town Delft most of the people living there had their own car and parking has always been hell. When my wife moved in we had two cars and her working as a nurse with different shifts had to park quite a bit away when she had night shifts. Charging a BEV on the streets there would require street poles everywhere since you can't have your own on your own parking space. There is no own parking space unless you are one of the very few with a garage. The house next door had one, but that was an exception.In the new build location of Hoogvliet we had a house without opposite front neighbors and two sides of parking. In year one we had all the space to park no problems. By the time we left four years later, parking had become a problemSo no guaranteed parking in front of your house to charge your car.In the small town of Nunhem we had our own driveway and a garage and there it would not be a problem to charge our car. Here in rural France we also have our own driveway and garage. A BEV would do fine for the shopping we do, but would be a drag for the two trips a year we take to the Netherlands. Sure we could rent a car for that, but we decided to upgrade our 17 year old car to a 1 year old ICE and hope to use that for the next 15 years or so. A hybrid could have done here if the price was within our budget, but they are still to high for us.In all the situations above car sharing would not have been an option with the work we did and even here in rural France I don't see it work that well. And with a lot of people being pigs I fear the state of a shared car every time I would like to use it. No thanks, I will keep my own car, even if it depreciates in value.

author: chickenHeadKnob
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2022, 05:44:26 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on August 18, 2022, 04:31:51 amWith respect to buying junkers, the WEF almost certainly can make this same calculation. Which is why I anticipate Anglo-sphere countries will introduce society wide coercive measures to prevent personal ownership of old cars. They will become inviable through some permutation of emission, road safety, licensing, insurance, carbon fuel rationing ect. laws. The same with cash transactions. Banksters are hot and horny for the elimination of the cash economy. You know, to fight crime and stuff.For most of my life I bought pick-up trucks, both used and new, and then hung on to them till they were 18-20+ years old. Easy to self-fix and maintain, used for some construction work and commuting. Made good deals along the way with very low amortized cost of ownership. Within the next 2-3 years I am looking to buy what will likely be my last vehicle and don't know what to do. Shit has gotten confusing real fast. I am still inclined to stick with a gasoline powered vehicle, but as others have already mentioned the prices in the used car market are insane.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2022, 07:21:08 am
content: Quote from: Bassman59 on August 18, 2022, 05:17:47 amThis is the point that is against the "convenience", there are measurable downsides of private ownership compared to rentals, nothing extra to pay or time to spend for a maintained, warranted, and breakdown covered vehicle, its all included in a rental. The time spent getting to/from a rental or share car for me has been less than the time spent administering an owned car, which with wider adoption would only improve.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2022, 07:28:46 am
content: Quote from: gnuarm on August 18, 2022, 04:04:34 amI think grid storage even being a battery is unlikely.Convert it into hydrogen and store that at STP in natural gas caverns, then pull that hydrogen through a few "fool-cells" to make electricity.Or, convert that hydrogen into natural gas using Fischer-Tropsch, or ammonia using the Haber process, and then combust as necessary (carbon-neutral fuel, assuming the natural gas leakage is kept low enough.)Most countries that use natural gas have huge salt or geological caverns underground suitable for storing whole seasons worth of gas and it's typically at a low pressure. Reuse what we have.Small battery-packs will handle the hour-by-hour load management but I doubt they will ever do much more than that - e.g. for the UK you'd need a 960GWh battery for 1 day's electricity (assuming demand stays as is) - that's roughly enough to build 13 million Tesla Model 3's - and you'll need more than one day worth of storage if the grid is fully renewable.Edit: typo

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 18, 2022, 08:46:46 am
content: Quote from: Someone on August 18, 2022, 07:21:08 amDo you have a family? Doesn't work so well then.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2022, 09:32:06 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on August 18, 2022, 08:46:46 amNo-one is saying they will replace all cars. Sure, have a family hatch/wagon/van/mover (sized to number of young) for the daily routine, and then share/rent/borrow a car for the non daily routine tasks.Owning a car has "hidden" costs which people pretend dont exist, which makes alternatives appear less desirable when they aren't.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2022, 10:46:18 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on August 17, 2022, 11:50:02 pmThere is ofcourse a number of people for whom owning a car is some kind of status symbol. But I think the group that simply needs a financially sensible car to travel to/from work every day is much larger. In the Netherlands used cars outsell new cars roughly 4 to 1.Quote from: Bassman59 on August 18, 2022, 05:17:47 amI don't think you have to do repairs yourself to run a car cheaply. I neverhadto. If you select a car carefully so you know the model is reliable + have the actual car checked by a mechanic before buying it, you won't be in for nasty surprises. Next to lending money for a car, the worst thing to do is buy a used car simply because it looks pretty. Typically I spend between 800 to 1500 euro on a used car to get it back to the proper maintenance level (including good tyres). With >80% devaluation eaten by the previous owner, that is well worth the money.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 18, 2022, 11:04:37 am
content: Quote from: Bassman59 on August 18, 2022, 05:17:47 amSure.And "junker" doesn't have to mean a $1000 bomb. It could simply mean a decent $10,000 used car instead of a $30,000 new one. Modern cars are very reliable, and if you get one of the common Japanese ones for example (Toyota Corolla for example), they are super reliable and parts are plentiful and fairly cheap if needed.In my wealth video I think I recommended not buying a new car, or the latest iPhone etc. Save your money and live frugally until you don't have to any more.

author: gnuarm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2022, 02:55:20 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on August 18, 2022, 04:34:29 amThe problem is you can't imagine this will change. BEVs are only just now entering the rapid sales growth, a bit like the inflationary phase of the universe after the big bang. Expect a lot of things to change. The one thing that will change the most is the appearance of level 1 or 2 charging at virtually everyplace where people park cars. Level 1 charging is dirt cheap to install. It's comparable to an outlet. Level 2 charging is also not very expensive and can be installed everywhere there is a need.No one is "handwaving" away anything. I'm just saying the present lack of overnight charging is not the huge, impenetrable roadblock that people try to make it out to be.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2022, 03:00:23 pm
content: Indeed. Some 50% of UK households do in fact have driveways so those are the 'easy pickings' for installing charging.The other half will need a solution, and it's definitely harder to solve. But in the meantime, what's holding that the first half back? How can we make EVs more attractive for those guys?

author: gnuarm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2022, 03:14:57 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on August 18, 2022, 04:35:41 amYou can't claim "large percentage" based on a few of your friends. That's what is meant by anecdotal.You are talking about the situation at this moment, as if it is impossible to change. This is what I hear from lots of people in the UK. It really makes me wonder if they are the same people who made so many advances in science and stood up to the Axis in WWII.This is such a trivial problem to overcome. Yes, it is not worth debating. If people can't figure this out, they deserve to be the last ones driving ICE when the rest of the world is clean.a43h2m_0_0.jpg(25.45 kB - downloaded 61 times.)

author: gnuarm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2022, 03:21:59 pm
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on August 18, 2022, 04:59:57 amThe landlord problem is easy to solve. In the US, in particular California, where most BEVs are bought, various regions have legislation that require landlords to cooperate with the tenants to install charging.As to the used car budget, there will be plenty of used BEVs in a few short years. In the US, the average daily use is 40 miles. There aren't any BEVs that can't manage twice that and even plug in hybrids (not really a pollution solution) can handle that. I know someone who drives a PHEV just so he can charge from a 120V outlet and round trip to work every day without the ICE ever starting.QuoteLOL. Ok, if you say so.QuoteOk, you are in a different world than me.

author: sokoloff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2022, 03:31:33 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on August 18, 2022, 03:00:23 pmFor two car households, I think most could already have one pure-BEV. We've been doing that since late 2014 and only twice in that timeframe has it been even moderately difficult to work out a way for both adult drivers to get where they needed to go. (Once, I just hyper-miled/rolling-roadblocked my way to 96 miles on a charge. Just this week, my wife used a DC fast charger for the first time to get ~100 miles in a single trip where I needed to use the CR-V around the house and she had to go 100 miles away. [We have a LEAF, with perhaps only 75 miles of range now.])The cost of acquisition is still a hurdle for some. I paid $8K for a perfectly suitable 5 year-old CR-V back in 2011. I paid $32K (before $10K in government handouts) for my LEAF in 2014. That's a good used vs a new car difference, but for a lot of people, that's the choice they're facing. I wouldn't willingly pay the current used price for a LEAF. [I'd also try to avoid paying the current used price for any car, but especially a LEAF.] I've spent a little over $4K in maintenance on the Honda and around $250 on the LEAF, with a fuel difference of about $6K, but an insurance difference against the LEAF of around $3.5K, meaning the Honda has still been slightly cheaper over the comparable period.The ready availability (in normal times) of excellent functioning, reliable 5-year old used ICE cars at under 50% of original MSRP and the comparative dearth of 5-year old used electrics makes it hard for some to justify pulling the trigger.If you're someone who leases a new car every 2-3 years, that's no factor. If you're someone who buys new cars every 3-5 years, that's no factor. If you're someone who wants to minimize their overall car costs, it's a pretty big factor still. To the extent that this is a reason, continued government purchase incentives is probably the quickest way to incentivize people to consider a new electric over a used ICE (as it changed my purchase behavior in 2014) AND to drive more used BEVs in the market in 2027.

author: gnuarm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2022, 03:55:25 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on August 18, 2022, 07:28:46 amHere's the big reason that is not a good idea, battery storage is between 80% and 90% efficient. You can't get anywhere near that with hydrogen. If your goal is to waste energy using expensive processes, then hydrogen is ideal.QuoteNow you are doubling down on bad ideas. You need to keep in mind the goal of using renewable energy. It is to reduce and ultimately eliminate pollution, mostly the carbon emissions of fossil fuels. The processes you list above start with fossil fuels as feedstocks. You could substitute synthetic fuel or biomass derived fuels, but the cost would be quite prohibitive.QuoteWhere do you get the natural gas that doesn't make this a huge polluter?QuoteIt would be a very serious drought that left wind farms and solar farms with zero output. Still, they will be producing 13 million BEVs for the USA alone by 2029. I don't see why this makes it unreasonable to build vanadium flow batteries. Remember that the lithium ion battery is chosen for mobile applications because of the high specific energy (energy per weight). Stationary applications don't care about that and will be built at a far lower cost per kWh than lithium ion cells. Read up about it. If you want to invest money in battery technology, vandium flow batteries are going to be a bigger wave than lithium ion because of the huge demand from buffering intermittent energy sources.

author: gnuarm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2022, 03:58:26 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on August 18, 2022, 03:00:23 pmBy having them for sale, to start. I don't know about the UK, but it's hard to buy a BEV in the US because they've all been sold. Some models have a 1 year waiting list. Automakers are ramping up literally as fast as they can.Hmmm... I wonder if BEVs will ever catch on?

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2022, 04:29:28 pm
content: Quote from: gnuarm on August 18, 2022, 03:58:26 pmHah. True that... I think I remarked a few posts ago about the VW ID.4 having a 14 month lead time. Well 2 year old ID.3s are selling for the same price as new. Market is kinda screwed right now.I'm going to wait a bit for those to drop... happy *enough* with my PHEV for now.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2022, 04:50:07 pm
content: Quote from: gnuarm on August 18, 2022, 03:58:26 pmLess than 1% of the 250 million cars, SUVs and light-duty trucks on the road in the United States are electric.Percentage of BEV in sales of new cars is irrelevant.https://graphics.reuters.com/AUTOS-ELECTRIC/USA/mopanyqxwva/World figures are somewhere better, somewhere worse..It is easy to talk about infrastructure when 1% of cars on road are BEV.It is easy to say they will scale electricity production, high voltage distribution networks, millions of local transformer stations, hundreds of millions of chargers etc..etc... But making current BEV electricity infrastructure 50-100x larger than now is colossal undertaking...Making 50-100x more batteries for BEV than now???

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2022, 05:00:08 pm
content: No problem at all... in a dream fantasyThe reality is that selling 50 BEVs instead of 25 is a 100% increase. And for sure there is a niche market segment waiting to be filled by BEVs. There are some rumours BEV sales are levelling off in the Netherlands because the market for BEVs starts to become saturated. We have to wait until the end of 2023 to draw some conclusions on that though.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2022, 05:21:12 pm
content: No one says 100% BEV by tomorrow. It will transition over the next 15-20 years. There will still be ICE on the road in 2040.The power generation argument is idiotic. VW e-Golf is 4 miles per kWh... average let's say of 12,000 miles per year... So we need an extra 3,000kWh per car.UK has 30 million cars - so extra generation of 90TWh. Country generated 323TWh last year.So yes... It is a lot... But also it is not that much - about 25% of total generation. It seems completely feasible over the course of 20 years that generation could increase by 25%. It will, after all, need to increase as gas heating is phased out. The beauty of EVs is they can charge any time they are parked up, so they are great for soaking up excess renewables.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2022, 05:24:36 pm
content: I agree with the 25% number. However what worries me is whether electricity becomes a scarse commodity at some point. More scarse compared to keep using oil in very efficient hybrids. Switching to hybrids will already cause a huge decrease in fuel consumption and CO2 emissions.Also keep in mind that under current EU regulations each BEV sold in the EU is equal to a car that emits 90 to 95 grams (don't know the exact number currently in effect) of CO2 due to the fact that car manufacturers have to meet a CO2 emission goal for their cars on average. IOW: for each BEV sold, an ICE car which emits more CO2 is being sold.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2022, 05:30:46 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on August 18, 2022, 05:21:12 pmYou might want to ease up on calling things idiotic, while ignoring data you don't like...Generation IS a problem. But not the biggest one. Grid needs to be taken to the streets. And grid is NOT specified by kWh, but by peak power... THAT is the problem.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2022, 05:35:41 pm
content: @2N3055 I agree that charging infrastructure costs are the bottle neck which will cap BEV adoption at some point short term. Going to a central fast-charge station just like a gas station is a much more money-efficient solution because the infrastructure is shared by more people. But that will take a new type of batteries so it will not happen in the next 15 to 20 years.

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2022, 06:16:27 pm
content: Expanding the whole electricity infrastructure will take a lot of time. Take the Netherlands, there in the north solar installations are setup, whilst there is no sufficient grid infrastructure to transport the power. Due to politics the estimate is 8 years before new cables can go into the ground.But that is just one of the problems. The earth has finite resources of everything. So the biggest question is are there enough for all the plans every government has to obtain the unobtainable goal of zero CO2 emission.I have asked about the actual numbers in another thread, but no one seems to know. Categorized per system emitting CO2 what the actual values are. The main focus at the moment is on the car and the households using fossil fuels to run. Some say this only takes up a very small share in the total CO2 emission the human race is responsible for.So is there a chart that shows how much CO2 a human or other big animal produces by eating and pooping, how much industry produces, how much house holds produce, how much cars produce, etc.And further more is there actual proof that the CO2 is the true and only culprit for climate change? How about methane which is far more a greenhouse gas than CO2. Waste disposal sites in South America are emitting a but load at the moment.My view on it all is that it is a desperate attempt to turn the tides and in the mean time keep up the growth economy.Just my 2 cents.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2022, 06:47:55 pm
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on August 18, 2022, 05:30:46 pmNo - sorry if I offended you, but the generation argument is parroted all the time by anti-EV zealots. I'm not saying you are one, but I've heard it so many times, and it just doesn't make sense. So it needs to die as an argument.As for local grid upgrades, sure. Loads of people charging 7kW at night would need to be accounted for, so we will probably see the upgrades being done there. At the 11kV (local medium voltage distribution) there is almost certainly enough capacity.It will depend especially on the distribution of cars and charging times ... For instance the average driver does like 20 miles per day so they only need 1hr of charging at 7kW for most cars. With some delayed start, that could be charged almost any time between midnight and 6am, no capacity issue even if everyone does that (oven & electric hobs at 3-4kW at 6pm is not an issue already.) But if people are charging up before summer holidays to go on a long road trip, and nearly every house is pulling 7kW... possible issue. Or if everyone on that street has a really long commute...e.g. a popular commuter town... then the average may not hold out so well.One thing I've learned recently is there's a serious lack of monitoring at the secondary side of most of the UK's LV distribution - the DNOs (local network operators) often only know there's a capacity issue when fuses blow or transformers show excess wear upon periodic inspection. That will probably change. Fortunately one benefit of smart metering, I suppose, is that this can be monitored on a street-by-street level so it will be possible to figure out what needs to be done and where.

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2022, 06:56:03 pm
content: What you are forgetting in the equation of usage is that house heating also needs to shift to electricity with heat pumps to get of the gas, oil and coal.This means another load on the grid, and during the night it tends to be colder then during the day, so the heater might run then. You would need a hell of a good communication system to control every system to get some proper load balancing.So to fulfill this chosen path of everything electric a lot has to be engineered and thought through.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2022, 06:57:08 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on August 18, 2022, 06:47:55 pmI hope you see that there are lot of 'ifs' and 'depends' in what you write above. And that is exactly where the problem is: lots of unknowns! The most costly part of the grid is the last bit to your home (or charging point) because that is shared by the least number of people. Load balancing schemes are a crutch and basically a sign that the grid can not deal with the load.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2022, 07:29:37 pm
content: Quote from: gnuarm on August 18, 2022, 02:55:20 pmIt is for those who do not have it. The difference between 'now' and 'some indeterminate time in the future with no concrete plans' seems lost on you.Quote from: gnuarm on August 18, 2022, 03:14:57 pmI look forward to your detailed plans to resolving this issue for the majority of the affected population base. It's clearly simple, you should have those sorted by next week.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2022, 07:32:24 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on August 18, 2022, 06:47:55 pmNo offense was taken, I just wanted to make sure we don't float off in wrong direction.And that is not argument from anti EV zealots, and for sure I'm not one. I cannot wait to have vehicle with electric motor group. But not until it is actually practical where I live. What I wrote is actual argument by some people I know in electro-distribution network here where I live. Not only it cannot die, it is primary problem for widespread adoption of BEV, next to BEV being more expensive than cheapest ICE cars.Let me explain. First it is an old city where center was made in Austrian-Hungarian empire, centuries ago. Also, it was once part of Italy. So city and suburbs are looking like those crammed, cramped Italian cities you see in the movies... They have huge problems keeping electrical grid running as it is. There are no enough cables, there is no place for additional transformer stations locally (on the streets) and no bulk capacity to the city. All of that needs to be solved.As for when people are charging, you can see the pattern by looking at parking patterns. Pretty much, it will be happening overnight. All of them at the same time.When they are home from the office, and all other activities. 7 kW is not enough power though, you need at least 16kW to charge it in reasonable time. Average of 50km is not important again, but a peak drive.. If I have to go Rijeka-Zagreb two days in a row (something very common here) I need to charge for 2 X 360-380 km in two days. And that has to be range, about 400km on a charge.

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2022, 07:34:24 pm
content: Quote from: gnuarm on August 18, 2022, 03:21:59 pmYou clearly haveno ideaabout infrastructure costs. We're talking about places where you need to dig to install new electricity connections, none of that third world pig on a pole stuff.The average cost of a new supply connection from existing street cables to a dwelling in the UK is £1790, most of that cost is digging in metalled roads and making good. There are 52 roadside parking spaces down my typical residential London street. That's a minimum of 26 type 2 charging points, at a minimum of £1000 a pop for the supply, £1000 a pop for a twin socket charging pillar, so ~£50,000 plus for one street.If you include all the streets that London Licensed Taxi drivers are required to learn there are over 30,000. That's only the streets within six miles of Charing Cross. London is about 30 miles across, give or take. Which leads to a crude estimate of 180,000 streets. There's 9200 miles of roads in London (not an estimate). So that's on the order of £9 billion, just for London. Over £1000 for each man, woman and child that lives in London. The current property taxes for London total about £5 billion a year.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2022, 07:39:34 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on August 18, 2022, 07:29:37 pmExactly. It is primary and absolutely "impenetrable" block for me to buy BEV. I cannot have it fuelled (charged) so it will not drive me anywhere. And that holds true for ALL the people (several hundreds of them) living on my street. What am I saying, all of the 5000-10000 people living in this part of town have no chargers available. Only people I know here that have BEVs have private houses with garages ad driveways where they can charge at home, and not a single one have BEV as only vehicle.

author: gnuarm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2022, 07:41:46 pm
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on August 18, 2022, 04:50:07 pmWow! I don't know if you are uninformed or choosing to be in denial. How much do you believe electrical production capacity will need to be increased? Not talking about production, but capacity. How many electrical generating plants will be built to supply BEVs by 2040 when nearly all cars on the road are BEVs?Yes, we will need to build an EVSE for every BEV sold. Let's see... comparing the issue of building a quarter billion BEVs, vs building a quarter billion EVSE... Yeah, I guess the EVSE are going to be the road block. Clearly impossible.I mean, wow! There's no way we could go from none to everyone having one of something in 30 years! Wait, what am I typing this on?

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2022, 07:50:22 pm
content: Quote from: gnuarm on August 18, 2022, 07:41:46 pmOh I see, so it is equal challenge to providing every household with a stationary 3kg box costing 500USD that needs 50W of power from standard (already there) outlet to function. You literally could not have found worse comparison.Yes, I'm in denial and uninformed..Please read the article..

author: Miyuki
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2022, 07:59:57 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on August 18, 2022, 05:21:12 pmThere will be some offset by this:"it takes around 2 to 3kWh of electricity and 2 to 3kWh of heat energy (DOE figures) to produce a gallon of gas"If the numbers are correct then it is a significant portion of the electricity needed for EVs when switched from ICEsQuote from: gnuarm on August 18, 2022, 03:55:25 pmVanadium flow batteries are around for at least a decade yet is anywhere any working installation?Hydrogen storage might a necessity in European conditionsBecause you need to withstand a winter when you have minuscule solar power and wind can stop blowing for weeks (it happens quite commonly)So to be able to have fossils as a backup for the worst case you need about 1 week of storage (for peak draw power as it happens in the same time)And to be 100% renewable + nuclear it will have to be at least one whole month worth of energyThere is no way around it. Sahara solar farm is not a realistic approach as it is not a stable region. And you won't be able to transfer energy across Europe anyway.So some huge chemical storage is a must.In the US it can be significantly different.

author: sokoloff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2022, 08:02:07 pm
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on August 18, 2022, 07:50:22 pmI'm pretty sure the 50W figure is in error somehow, but I'm not sure what you're talking about to know what it should be. Surely not 50kW (not available from a standard outlet), but I also can't figure out what you could do with only 50W that's relevant to BEVs. Could you clarify?

author: gnuarm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2022, 08:07:01 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on August 18, 2022, 05:00:08 pmLOL! I bought my BEV four years ago when the people who already had BEVs told me I wasn't an early adopter, they were the early adopters. Now I am told I am part of a niche market. Yeah, just like cell phones in the 90s, or the VCR and microwave in the 80s, or color TV in the 60s.If you just stop resisting for no reason, and pay attention to the advantages of BEVs, you will see they are a slam dunk. But don't take my word for it. Give it ten years and you will see how very few new ICE are still sold. If for no other reason, that once the numbers drop off enough, models will be discontinued left and right. Car makers simply can't make money on low volume sales of low end models.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2022, 08:08:15 pm
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on August 18, 2022, 07:32:24 pmThere aren't many EVs (or any currently made, that I'm aware of) that go above 11kW, or 16A x 3ph, so I'm not sure 16kW is a near-term requirement. Of course, it could change.The capacity issue is mostly down to average usage though.There is nothing in principle wrong with using the average journey distance to calculate grid loading - so if the average daily usage is 20 miles then a user will need 5kWh per night in charging. That is 7kW for less than an hour, or 3.6kW for just under two. The grid already handles - with some margin for capacity - peak times when cookers are switched on, or morning time if you have electric showers (9kW+ per home) and similar.The point of using the average is of course there will be cases where you need 7kW x 8 hours twice in a row - but it's unlikely everyone on the street will need it. And most homes in Europe have at least 40A single phase service so can support 16-24A EV charging. Many homes in Europe have 3ph in which case EV charging is even better because it sits equally across all three phases, even at lower powers. No diversity or phase-balance calculations to make.The biggest issues are not on the cables to each home but at the distribution network between those - it's common that there might only be a 300A x 3ph cable feeding a whole street. This may need to be replaced, depending on the load, but that can be monitored and upgraded as needed. At the low-voltage to medium-voltage transformer, it's possible there will need to be larger transformers fitted, or upgrades to the 11kV (or other AC voltage) lines - that could get expensive. But I'm not sure I'd be that worried by space for a bigger transformer. Transformer design has only improved since some of those have been installed. A 3MVA transformer fits in a 2m x 2m box, and that's enough to support an Ionity fast charging station.For what it's worth I know two people who work in the distribution network here - National Grid plc - and they both tell me they are very on board with EVs. They are giving their employees who have a driveway a company electric van, and are converting the fleet to EVs. See, the distributor gets paid the more kWh's flow, so it really is in their interest to make sure they can allow it. Their biggest short-term concern, for the UK, is building more HV transmission lines to allow the renewable power in Scotland to make it to the rest of the UK, as at present there are only two 400kV (~10GW each) links connecting the two halves.

author: gnuarm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2022, 08:11:33 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on August 18, 2022, 05:24:36 pmLOL!!! Hybrids are still terrible compared to BEV when it comes to efficiency. Hybrids only look good when compared to the worst possible alternative, ICE autos!QuoteLOL!!! You are really reaching! I can't even respond to this with an answer that would not be insulting to your intelligence.Why not just say every BEV made kills a kitten?

author: gnuarm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2022, 08:18:31 pm
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on August 18, 2022, 05:30:46 pmAh ha! You are so close to the truth, if it were a snake, it would have bit you! YES! What matters is PEAK power. BEVs are mostly charged at night, at OFF-PEAK times. So the 20-25% increase in electric generation will use idle generation capacity that otherwise is wasted capital... which still must be depreciated and shows up in the high per kWh rates at peak times!So charge BEVs at night (when no one has to sit around waiting...) and you also use fallow capital, decreasing the cost of electricity for EVERYONE!So BEVs will increase electric production by 20%. Assume a high number of 5% of BEV charging will be done at peak time. That increases peak demand by just 1%. I expect BEV charging at peak time will be more like 1% (people on trips) which would be just 0.2% increase in production required.

author: gnuarm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2022, 08:25:10 pm
content: Quote from: pcprogrammer on August 18, 2022, 06:16:27 pmThe sheer magnitude of CO2 emissions dwarfs everything else that is part of the problem. Yes, there are methane emissions, but not the massive, continuous emissions from transportation, building and many other human endeavors. Once you explore the problem and get a feel for how large the magnitude is, it's amazing. Just making concrete releases CO2, independent of the source of the energy involved. I believe that is a non-trivial part of the problem, around 8%.

author: gnuarm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2022, 08:31:59 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on August 18, 2022, 07:29:37 pmLOL! "No concrete plan" applies to nearly everything we do. The point is there are no unforeseen hurtles. This is not rocket science, no new technology is needed. We just need to install some EVSE units. As far as apartments and condos, they will be motivated by economics. The ones that install EVSE will have renters and buyers. The ones that don't, will end up empty. Yeah, that's real. Just like cable, Internet and even phone lines. At one time they did not exist. Places that didn't have them were the ones the ended up with fewer renters and buyers and lost money. Now they are universal.QuoteI just gave it to you. What details plans do they prepare to deal with traffic congestion when new homes are built? None, nada, zip, zilch. Yet, they eventually build roads and people get where they need to go.

author: gnuarm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2022, 08:42:04 pm
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on August 18, 2022, 07:32:24 pmNonsense. BEVs mostly get around 4-5 miles per kWh. In the US the average drive is 40 miles, or 10 kWh. I can do that on a 120V outlet overnight! In fact, that is what I do and my car is a glutton at 3 miles per kWh. A 4 kW EVSE (16A @ 240V) gives 16 mph charging rate and will provide 200 miles in 12.5 hours. Is that not fast enough?QuoteOr you stop for 10-15 minutes along the way, have a coffee and hit the bathroom. You can get up to 200 miles or even 321 km in that time. If you are going to whine that this is not reasonable, then I guess you can keep your gas burner and be the last guy driving an ICE in 2050.

author: gnuarm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2022, 08:49:49 pm
content: Quote from: Cerebus on August 18, 2022, 07:34:24 pmI'm sorry, I really have no idea what you are talking about. "new supply connection from existing street cables to a dwelling"Are you planning to build a new house just for your car?This is the sort of stuff people from the UK give me all the time. There are some who have BEVs and discuss rationally how they charge in their garage or driveway. None of them have needed new feeds from the street! You must think a BEV requires a direct connection to a nuclear power plant to charge! I charge my Tesla model X from a 120V, 15A outlet that provides 1.44 kW to the car which puts just 1 kW into the battery. In the UK, you don't even have such low power outlets, do you?This is why I typically don't discuss BEVs with people from the UK. They managed to essentially run the world at one point, but today can't seem to be able to wire a 240V outlet.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2022, 09:01:42 pm
content: @gnuarm: please stop. I'm pissing my pants here

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2022, 09:05:10 pm
content: Quote from: gnuarm on August 18, 2022, 08:49:49 pmI'm charging my PHEV from an extension lead run out of the kitchen window! That's 2.3kW. About the lowest you would normally charge a car on around here... Still, it shows that you can install EV charging even if you rent. The total cost of the infrastructure was... about £20 for a heavy duty waterproof lead from the DIY store.I'll put a proper EV charger on the wall once I move in to the new place.

author: gnuarm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2022, 09:06:41 pm
content: Quote from: Miyuki on August 18, 2022, 07:59:57 pmI've looked for substantiation of these numbers and it is not to be found. The "heat energy" is not particularly relevant unless the source of that energy is given. The 2 to 3 kWh of electricity is probably more like 0.5 kWh. If I find the sources of this info, I'll post it here.QuoteBy "around" you mean they were invented a decade ago. So? Why is that relevant? The application of grid storage is very recent and every technology for that purpose is relatively new. Lithium ion batteries are only used for grid storage because of the advances in production from Tesla's use in autos. Now we need similar advances in production for vanadium flow batteries.QuoteSorry, that doesn't make sense. How does a need for "fossils" turn into storing hydrogen? If you are going to use fossil fuel, why not just store that?QuoteDon't forget that nuclear requires storage. It has the opposite problem of renewables which are intermittent. Nuclear is not easy to scale back. Not only is that uneconomical, but if you try to ramp it up and down for the daily cycle, you end up xenon poisoning the reactor. So it needs to store energy at the slack demand times so it doesn't get throttled back, then it needs the additional energy reserve to power the peak times.The US also has political instability issues. Texas, a very large region, is an independent grid. So the rest of the US has to operate around them, even though they are an ideal location for wind power. I'm hoping they will secede so we can treat them as a foreign country, possibly hostile.

author: gnuarm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2022, 09:11:01 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on August 18, 2022, 08:08:15 pmI understand that it is very common for the majority of homes to switch on the kettle at the same time during commercials on the TV, especially for football matches. I think that is 2 kW per house, 9 amps, right?You can actually charge a BEV quite well on that power level. I'm getting by with less.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2022, 10:20:38 pm
content: Quote from: gnuarm on August 18, 2022, 08:42:04 pmThere are very few chargers on the way. All of them are slow and usually taken by desperate ones.... Also I don't have time to faff around. I need to get there and back without wasting additional time.. 15 minutes charge on slow charger is not helpful. 2 hours I don't have just because I made a wrong decision to buy a car the doesn't serve my usage patterns..I don't serve my car purposes. It is the other way around. Until BEV serves my lifestyle as well as gasoline burner and is affordable to me to buy, no BEV for me. And that is how it is for 90% of all population. THAT is the reason why there no more BEVs on the street. These people are not anti green. They just cannot afford it. In more ways than just price to purchase it.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2022, 10:28:56 pm
content: Quote from: gnuarm on August 18, 2022, 08:31:59 pmAnd I'm sure you're quite happy to go and invest tens of thousands of dollars into a vehicle which is impractical for you with no foreseeable change to that fact. The rest of the world has other ideas.Quote from: gnuarm on August 18, 2022, 08:49:49 pmThe issue here is that you are arguing from a point of profound ignorance as to the reality of living in this country.Running cables to a dwelling was brought up as an example of the cost of running underground cabling. The reverse would be required for a house to provide its own charging point at the roadside, or similar work required to provision charging up a street on behalf of the houses there by, say, a local council, or a private company providing charging facilities.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2022, 11:01:02 pm
content: Quote from: pcprogrammer on August 18, 2022, 06:16:27 pmThat sort of data is readily available:https://www.csiro.au/en/research/environmental-impacts/climate-change/climate-change-qa/sources-of-ghg-gasesreported in co2 "equivalent"Private transport is somewhere around 5-10% of total Australian emissions by that measure. Still a bigger opportunity for change than things like LED bulb replacement (and the carbon offsets that were shuffled around on that).

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2022, 11:21:30 pm
content: Quote from: gnuarm on August 18, 2022, 08:49:49 pmI'm obvious talking about kerbside charging, which is a necessity for the majority of city dwellers in European cities to be able to use BEVs at any scale as practical everyday transport as the vast majority of city dwellers do not have a drive or a garage. Have you ever been to a European city? Perhaps people from the UK give you this "sort of stuff" because they live there and know the conditions and you don't. You sit in your little corner of Puerto Rico and just imagine that the rest of the world works just the same, well it doesn't. The population density of urban London overall istwicethat of San Juan, Paris 7.5 times that of San Juan, Barcelona 5.7. Heck the urban population of London is 3 times that of the whole of Puerto Rico, and population density 16 times that of Puerto Rico as a whole. The London metro area has a population 4 1/2 times that of the whole of Puerto RicoMy house is a very typical victorian London terraced house built circa 1850 which is 7m odd wide, as is my neighbours, and so on until the end of the road, and the next street, and the next street in both directions for a mile either way. No driveway, no garage, I have to park on the street in front. Perhaps 1 in 100 houses in my borough (population density 25,000/sq mi, 3.5 times that of San Juan) has a drive or a garage. It's a 2000 year old city, that has been crammed into a river basin. Most UK cities are slightly less packed, but still most of the housing and the residential roads were built well before motor cars were invented; and the average city dweller didn't have a stable for a horse and cart or any attached land that could be repurposed for a drive or a garage.Here's a typical London street of Victorian terraced houses, similar to mine, ~6 miles from the centre of town.I've been very lucky, my neighbours are considerate, and I get to park in front of my house almost all the time, and so can cobble together charging at the kerb, running a cable under a safety yellow tread strip. But as soon as there are a few people in my street needing to do that you can bet your last dollar that the local authority will ban it on safety grounds, and probably rightly once these become a common hazard to foot traffic rather than a rare one.All you are doing by your handwaving and saying that nothing is a problem and everything is all so simple to fix is betray your parochiality and ignorance of the world more than a few thousand feet from your own front door.

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2022, 11:49:20 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on August 18, 2022, 09:05:10 pmI just upgraded from that to a purpose made extension cable made out of 2.5 mm2"arctic" cable (for the lower I2R losses) and a pukka IP66 socket for the outdoor end of it. Combined with the IP66 rated charge cable (with integral 3 pole disconnect ELCB) that came with the car I can now charge the car without keeping an eye on the weather (which I was being ultra cautious about before). I wasn't very happy with either the low IP54 rating of the commercial "waterproof" extensions or the whispy thin 1.5mm2cable - used to getwaytoo warm for my liking (even though I'd obviously done the correct thing and unravelled the whole thing for heat dissipation).

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2022, 11:57:44 pm
content: Quote from: Cerebus on August 18, 2022, 11:21:30 pmYup. In the city where I live you get a 259 euro fine for putting a cable over the side walk (to charge your EV). Even if it is in a safety strip.

author: gnuarm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2022, 12:51:36 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on August 18, 2022, 09:01:42 pmYes, I gather that's par for the course.

author: gnuarm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2022, 12:58:28 am
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on August 18, 2022, 10:20:38 pmOk, then you live in a country that isn't ready for BEVs. Perhaps you can join the rest of us in anther 10 years or so. In the US, Tesla has made a point of building a very good charging network that is very effective. They are still continuing to expand it. I know in Australia, not so much. People live around the perimeter mostly, yet have to drive across the inner parts to reach other parts of the perimeter. They don't have so many Teslas yet, so not so many trip chargers.QuoteYeah, I get that. Not everyone is ready for BEVs. But don't invent numbers where you have none. The only thing currently limiting the number of BEVs on the road is how fast they can make them, literally! There is a year backlog on many models.

author: gnuarm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2022, 01:02:52 am
content: Quote from: Monkeh on August 18, 2022, 10:28:56 pmYou seem to have snipped something you wanted to reply to. But my BEV is not impractical in any way. It works very well and charging is nearly everywhere.QuoteYes, there are many countries I am ignorant of. I have found that by the description of the electric grid in the UK, by the people who live in the UK, it is not unlike the grid here in Puerto Rico, constantly on the edge of crashing and putting everyone in the dark. I hope you can find a path forward that will resolve your grid problems and BEVs can be used as in the more advanced countries in the EU.

author: gnuarm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2022, 01:06:30 am
content: Cerebus: I'm not handwaving. I just know that this is not such an insurmountable problem. It only requires a bit of innovative thinking rather than not looking past the roadblock.Ok, that is what I have said several times. Many, but not all people from the UK, who discuss this seem to think it is an intractable problem. I'm willing to bet that in 10 years, solutions abound.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2022, 01:48:38 am
content: Quote from: gnuarm on August 19, 2022, 01:02:52 amThere was nothing of substance to reply to, merely the presence of your attempted reply.Your BEV may be practical - you are missing the issue that for many people it simply would not beand no change to this is in sight despite your assertion that there is no problem. Nobody is going to buy a BEV which they cannot practically use based upon the dream that someone else will shortly turn up and fix it.Quote from: gnuarm on August 19, 2022, 01:06:30 amIt is an intractable problem for those who have it, and the vast majority of those are not in a position to keep changing their vehicles.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 19, 2022, 02:09:55 am
content: Quote from: gnuarm on August 19, 2022, 01:06:30 amTo the person making a decision ot buy an EV it doesn't matter that the probemcanbe solved, ormaybe solved in the future, it's a simple fact that it doesn't work for them NOW.And solving street parking charging is not as easy as solving say a home charging problem. Installing an extra power in your garage or outside your house and running an extension lead is trivial, you can do it yourself or just hire an electrican to do it fairly easily, so it's no impedement to buying an EV.But if you are forced to park on the public street you don't have the same easy options. And regardless of how much effort oyu put into solving this problem, there wil ALWAYS be people who are unable to buy an EV because of the charging issue.EV's will never reach the convenience point of getting 500km range in 2 minutes at a petrol station like ICE cars. So you need to be a certain kind of buys to go for an EV. This will not change for the forseeable future.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2022, 02:29:37 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on August 19, 2022, 02:09:55 amPeoplechooseto own a carandpark it on the street. So many choices! Upsides and downsides to those choices.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2022, 02:31:07 am
content: Quote from: Someone on August 19, 2022, 02:29:37 amThat is not always the case, but it does nicely identify those with the privilege.

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2022, 02:33:55 am
content: Quote from: gnuarm on August 19, 2022, 01:06:30 amIf it just requires "a bit of innovative thinking" then you should be able to provide that if it's so simple. Reducing it to "a bit of innovative thinking" without proposing even the faintest hint of a concrete solution isexactlyhandwaving.Of course, it doesn't just require "a bit of innovative thinking" it requires 100s of billions of pounds spent on infrastructure for the UK alone before BEVs for the masses is a practical thing the way ICE vehicles currently are. These are hard costs, not costs that benefit much from economies of scale. Someone has to dig the roads, install a vast number of public charging points where they are convenient for all people to use at a reasonable price* and wire the whole lot to the electricity distribution system. Someone has to make that investment and until they do BEVs will remain not a mass market thing but the playthings of dilettantes with upwards of £30k to spend and a relatively large property with off street parking that they can fit their own charger in.London currently has around 6000 EV public charge points, mostly 7kW slow AC chargers, a population of 9.5 million people, and currently 2.6 million cars registered to London addresses. One charge point, of the type that needs a whole night to charge a typical BEV, per 433 cars. Say for arguments sake that's one charge per car per week. That cuts the factor to around 62. So we are short 370,000 charge points just for London. If we take your mythical 10 years when all will be solved, that requires the equivalent of 102 off 7kW chargers to be installed in London every day. Or to put it differently, the number of public chargers currently available would have to double in the next two months.The whole UK has less than 35,000 public charging points in total, only ~5000 are rapid or ultra rapid. If we are going to ban the sale of new ICE cars in 2030 as mooted, a shit load of infrastructure needs building in the next 8 years to support the 2-3 million new cars purchased a year in the UK plus the BEV and PHEVs sold in the interim before BEVs become the only game in town..* A lot of the current public charge points charge double what you'd pay for home charging without even offering fast charging.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2022, 03:43:28 am
content: Quote from: Monkeh on August 19, 2022, 02:31:07 amWho is contractually obliged to own a carandpark it on the street. It is a choice.Don't own your parking? you cant complain about its lack of amenities or convenience. Want to own a vehicle (say so you can conduct business as a tradeperson)? That's part of the costs of choosing to do that.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2022, 03:46:51 am
content: Quote from: Someone on August 19, 2022, 03:43:28 amOnes choices are, I'm afraid to say, often constrained by available accomodations, work, and transit. Many simply do not have a choice about owning a car, nor any short-term choice about where they live. It's very nice that you do, but as I said, it demonstrates your privilege.

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2022, 05:51:23 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on August 18, 2022, 11:57:44 pmThat is so typical of politicsOn the one hand they push you into buying an EV, but when you do and try to charge it with a cable running from your house to the car over "public" land then you get fined for it.Quote from: Someone on August 18, 2022, 11:01:02 pmStill only a partial answer, but an interesting take from it: Generating electricity is the number one in producing CO2 emission, and what do we do, switch to EV's which use electricity. Sure there is a big movement to get electricity from "renewables", which I find a wrong term for solar and wind, but that is another discussion.Through this thread I saw mentioned a lot that overnight charging is the thing, but with solar electricity there is not a lot of it around during the night! So this means wind has to fill in here, but that does not always blow, meaning there still is a large need for conventional electricity. No will many say, electricity storage will do here. With current state of battery technology I doubt that will be feasible. What will, I don't know. Just pointing out problems I see here.Also something to think about. Do we have any idea of the long term influence of what we are doing? Erecting big wind farms everywhere on the planet. What does this do to the climate. Are we changing micro climates that can have an impact on the big picture? Think of it, a wind mill takes energy from wind blowing, reducing its strength a bit. On a large enough scale, does this change how clouds are being dispersed and with that change rain distribution?Same question with wind farms in the north sea. All the pillars that stand on the seabed how do they affect current flow and with that temperature distribution through the water?Solar installations on grasslands, how does that affect the thermal behavior? We know that asphalt has a big impact where it comes to heat. It absorbs a lot during the day and releases it at night.See the bigger picture here? Do we know about the long term effect of what we are doing to try and change the effects of what we already did?And don't come knocking with "sure we do, because we did simulations on the computer". These are just simulations based on models that we tune to get the outcome we want. Look at weather predictions. These are based on models and are often wrong, at least here where I live. Has to do with the mountain range in the Cantal. We use three different website to check the forecast and they mostly differ between them and can't even seem to predict it right for the current day.Take from it what you will, again just my 2 cents worth.

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2022, 05:53:47 am
content: Quote from: sokoloff on August 18, 2022, 08:02:07 pmHe was talking about a computer, reffering to gnuarm his remark that he was typing his message on something that was not available some 30 odd years ago.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2022, 07:23:01 am
content: Yes, street dwellers will need infrastructure.NO, it doesn't need to be on the street.- It can be in town when they visit, or at the supermarket (a bank of 50kW units)- It can be at a "petrol station" but electric- It can be at work- It can be by a mobile service (there's literally a service that drives around in London and gives people 20kWh quickly)The average driver at 20 miles per day or 140 miles per week would only need a charge about once a week.If you look at London then you get a pretty good idea of what the start of on street charging looks like.As far as I am aware there is no proposal to extend home electrics to the street (some have done it, but it's complicated, messy and a safety engineering nightmare.) A better approach is to have proper on street infrastructure. Some have used existing street light feeds, which are often connected to the distribution ring main (through a 20-30A fuse) and so have more than enough capacity. Others are bona-fide new infrastructure.For those who wanted to access discounted tariffs like homeowners do, I think it should be possible that a street charger in the same region as your house has the same kWh cost. A higher standing charge covers infrastructure repair.

author: Miyuki
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2022, 07:46:28 am
content: Quote from: gnuarm on August 18, 2022, 09:06:41 pmThat numbers about gas processing vary widely so it is hard to get any relevant onesI know lithium batteries had already scaled production. But Vanadium flow was presented as a quick "magical" solution.And even when some are built recently, they are small compared to Lithium based installations.So it seems there is some huge technical difficulty in turning them from a lab demonstrator to a commercial scale.QuoteEither there needs to be a fossil backup or huge storage of hydrogen, electrolyzed from hugely abundant electricity in times when conditions are idealBecause if you scale renewable to be more than a few percent of the average load you end up with idling solar and wind for a big portion of the time when will the sun shine and wind blow at the same time.So you have basically "free" electricityNuclear can easily just dump "waste" power to the cooling tower. This is not an issue, just wasteful behavior.As renewable electricity price is massively volatile even on an hour-to-hour scale, you can use this time when it is so abundant its price fall to zero to things with relatively low efficiency.Like electrolyzing water and then burning that hydrogen to get power.Or just wait with high energy demand tasks to this time, not all can be timed, but a surprisingly big portion can be.For example, in households, most energy consumption tasks like water and space heating and cooling (which can be done with proper insulation without any effect on comfort), clothes, and dishwashing can be easily delayed to the high generation times. Just bill the actual price of electricity to people and most of them will do it. And this is way over 50% of consumption for most houses.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2022, 08:40:57 am
content: Quote from: Monkeh on August 19, 2022, 02:31:07 amIs owning a car now considered a privilege?How about it being a basic human right, and a consequence of living above the poverty line?Quote from: pcprogrammer on August 19, 2022, 05:51:23 amNothing.Quote from: pcprogrammer on August 19, 2022, 05:51:23 amNot really, I see ramblings, which are basically equivalent to the "Solarpanels are going to suck away the energy from the sun and we will all live in darkness"Quote from: pcprogrammer on August 19, 2022, 05:51:23 amYou are either looking at low quality websites doing predictions. Or your expectations are too high, and you want to know the weather more than 5 days in advance. There are weather models that take 27 parameters in a 100m grid, and can predict pretty much how the weather will be for maybe two weeks. The best supercomputers have trouble running the model in real time, plus the smallest observation error, measurement error will change the outcome.

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2022, 09:00:05 am
content: Quote from: tszaboo on August 19, 2022, 08:40:57 amThat you know of, but you can't proof it. Only in 10, 20, 30 years time we will know the answer.Quote from: tszaboo on August 19, 2022, 08:40:57 amThat is your provocative to see ramblings, but your comparison is off base. That is not what I'm saying.Placing solar panels on existing roofs is no problem, but covering fast planes of land might cause problems we have not for seen. Just think of how deforestation to make room for housing, industry, farming and infrastructure changed the earth and its climate.But I know it is not a message people want to hear. Just keep believing that everything will be just fine as long as we change to electricity and move away from fossil fuels.Quote from: tszaboo on August 19, 2022, 08:40:57 amNo I would like to know if it is going to rain today or not. And when the predictions say it is not and you trust on it, it is a bit of a bummer that your paint job gets ruined because it starts to rain. Or when looking at the radar on weerplaza.nl telling that it is raining and then you look outside and the sun is shining.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2022, 09:34:51 am
content: Quote from: Monkeh on August 19, 2022, 03:46:51 amYou imagine there is no choice, while in fact you aren't living in a totalitarian dictatorship eliminating all free will (east Germany anyone?). Your choice of accomodation and job are just that, there is no force requiring you to undertake them with no other option.People get stuck in what they perceive to be optimal situations, that with a narrow/short view may well be the nearest best option, but miss the wider choices that could be better overall.Quote from: tszaboo on August 19, 2022, 08:40:57 am... can't tell if serious or joke. Car ownership being a basic human right? Even if it were a right, that doesn't make it mandatory or an essential of life.

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2022, 09:39:57 am
content: Quote from: Someone on August 19, 2022, 09:34:51 amIt certainly is not mandatory, but it makes things a lot easier.At least when you live out in the sticks. In a big town it might even be a hinder.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2022, 11:39:28 am
content: Quote from: Someone on August 19, 2022, 09:34:51 amAh, great. Next time I need to go to the toilet I'll take a dump in the neighbour's garden. According to you, I have that choice.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2022, 12:06:52 pm
content: Quote from: Someone on August 19, 2022, 09:34:51 amYeah, it is covered by many many legal systems. Just one below:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_to_an_adequate_standard_of_livingAnd it's impossible for a country in Europe to ban you from car ownership. They can take your license, if you don't deserve it.Of course there are always hippies and gen-z living in a city center debating this.But car ownership is not a privilege. It's not something that is given to you by someone else for any reason, you are born with the right.

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2022, 12:08:58 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on August 19, 2022, 11:39:28 amOh you do have that choice, but your neighbor won't be very happy and he might kick the crap (Pun very much intended) out of you

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2022, 12:23:14 pm
content: Quote from: Someone on August 19, 2022, 09:34:51 amI don't imagine, I am simply aware that not everyone has the full range of choices you or I have. You seem to be stuck in the optimal situation of having every option available to you at all times with acceptable levels of risk, which simply isn't reality.Quote from: tszaboo on August 19, 2022, 12:06:52 pmAll very interesting, but car ownership is not a privilege I was talking about. And yes, ownership aside, the use of a vehicle on the public roads is a privilege, not a right.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2022, 12:34:56 pm
content: Quote from: tszaboo on August 19, 2022, 12:06:52 pmDid you read that link? a car (or transport) is not included on the list of adequate standard of living. Quoting the original source:Quote from: Universal Declaration of Human Rights25% of UK households have no car, 30% of Dutch households have no car. It's not some fringe thing or solely out of poverty, but a legitimate choice for many.

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2022, 12:44:25 pm
content: Quote from: pcprogrammer on August 19, 2022, 05:51:23 amYup, if and when it happens to me I shall be using exactly that argument to make a very public, very embarassing, fuss over it.The particular irony for me is that 1 1/2 years ago my local council introduced payments for permits to park in residents only zones based on vehicle emissions. Prior to that it was free to get a residents permit, now it's only free if you have a very low emissions vehicle (basically PHEV or BEV). Also this year there was road charging (£12.50 per day) introduced in effectively the whole of London for using vehicles with that don't meet Euro 4 petrol or Euro 8 diesel emissions standards, effectively banning older cars with technically lower emissions that are too old to have been homologated to those standards. Which so happens to include my old car.So faced with those two my hand was pretty much forced into getting a new car, which needed to be a PHEV/BEV to satisfy the parking requirement, when I could have happily run my existing car for several years more and spread its embodied energy/carbon emissions over a while longer.Quoteit's probably better to think of 'idle charging' rather than 'overnight'.There are plenty of opportunities to charge vehicles when idle as long as there are places to plug them in when idle and it's quite possible to modify charging to take place when there is abundant wind/solar power available and defer it when there is enough general demand that non-renewables would be brought on-stream to satisfy demand.Infrastructure to do this could be cheap and implemented tomorrow if there was a will. Even without infrastructure it's possible for a vehicle or charge point to monitor mains frequency to assess the current whole grid demand today, it would require very minor changes to current AC chargers to implement - basically a mains zero-crossing detector, a stable microprocessor clock, and a bit of extra code in existing chargers.The first requirement however is to have enough EVs plugged in when idle whenever possible so that they can charge opportunistically when there is low electricity demand.Currently I try to manage this manually, only charging my car at times I know are typically low demand and have high availability of solar or wind as sources (sometimes even actively checking demand/availabilty on gridwatch.co.uk). I'm sure that it makes bugger all difference, but at least I know that I'm doing my best to not make thingsworse.QuoteYup, we don't know, for a fact, the long term implications of going down those routes. What we do know is how damaging our current/previous energy infrastructure is/was. All we can do is pursue a policy of harm minimisation based on our best current understanding of the science and update our policies as we learn more. As we've already intimated, sound science/engineering and politics are poor bedfellows and as we have to go through the political process to achieve the engineering outcome we stuck with that and all its faults. A cynic might say doomed, if past observation of politics is any predictor of future behaviour.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2022, 12:46:40 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on August 19, 2022, 12:23:14 pmNo-one has infinite/all imaginable choices available, but at the same time very few have no choice (even incarcerated people have choices). You can try and argue stupid extremes, but they are stupid and do nothing to discredit the basic premise that people make their own choices and are not forced to do anything a specific as own a carorpark it on the street (let alone theandcondition presented above).Nothing compels someone to have a car, they choose it... for one of many possible reasons that they have ranked/valued. If you really can't understand the complexities, perhaps the following might illuminate you:"Household Car Ownership in The NetherlandsThe Changing Influence of Factors Explaining Household Car Ownership Levels in The Netherlands"https://repository.tudelft.nl/islandora/object/uuid%3Aa33eb3a5-5f30-4744-934e-613644fd14d2a thesis elaborating on this without relying on hyperbole and nonsense

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2022, 12:53:49 pm
content: Quote from: Someone on August 19, 2022, 12:34:56 pmWhere did you get those numbers? The report you linked to says 12.9% in 2014 (which is higher compared to 2010; keep in mind 2014 is just after the credit crunch). Since then the number of cars in the NL has grown by more than 14%.But your whole 'it is a choice' theme is utterly ridiculous. For many owning a car means being able to make more money and thus have a better live. Who wouldn't want a better life? It is stupid to even question that.In the same 'it is a choice' reasoning you can also say to stay alive or kill yourself is also a choice. It is ridiculous and your trademark method to bait people into endless circular discussions.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2022, 01:03:56 pm
content: Quote from: Someone on August 19, 2022, 12:46:40 pmIf the only work available to you to support your basic living expenses requires travel by car, and the only accomodation available within the budget this creates has no parking, this is not hyperbole nor nonsense. And yes, those conditions exist simultaneously for many, even if you have never been placed in such a position (this is the privilege I have been describing - a lost point to most of those with it).Technically, one has the choice to have none of the three (job, car, and home) and live on the street where they used to park their car, however very few would consider that a reasonable choice - fewer still who have families.

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2022, 01:05:42 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on August 19, 2022, 12:23:14 pmit's very easy to demonstrate that there are a whole class of people, doing essential jobs, that need personal transport to do them. Any essential worker who works shifts outside of convenient public transportation operating hours: police, nurses, firefighters, utilities workers, transport workers who have to get there first to open up public transport for the day, and so on. There's a sewage works near me, without which most of London would be up to their necks in shit, that needs 24 hour "boots on the ground" workers present - it's not somewhere convenient to 24 hour public transport. It's very easy for the middle classes to completely ignore all those invisible people who make their cities work, often at awkward times of day or in awkward places, who have to live in and get around the cities to do their jobs.These people don't have a choice of expensive vehicles or expensive properties to live in, not unless we as a society decide to pay them many times more what we do at the moment. To write off their situations as being "choices" reeks of privilege; I'd like someone who takes that attitude try to live without them for a few months. We call these peopleessentialworkers for a reason.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2022, 01:12:26 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on August 19, 2022, 12:53:49 pmWell done crossing different posts to try and make out like I'm being inconsistent, one is an 8 year old set of data with extensive discussion of underlying reasons for car ownership (or not), vs current figures that you could equally try and find disputing numbers and references but hey:UK 25%https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/personalandhouseholdfinances/incomeandwealth/adhocs/009922numberofvehiclesperhouseholdDutch 30%https://www.iamexpat.nl/lifestyle/lifestyle-news/30-percent-dutch-households-do-not-own-caror Dutch 26%http://techzle.com/car-ownership-in-the-netherlands-continues-to-increase.. specifically noting that more cars per capita /= more households with carsQuote from: nctnico on August 19, 2022, 12:53:49 pmSome will be better off and some won't, but they have the choice. Its not ridiculous to say people can make choices about these things, for some the choice will be obvious, but the "reasoning" shown in this thread is laughable.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2022, 01:17:13 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on August 19, 2022, 01:03:56 pmChoices. Move closer to job, or take different job closer to accomodation. No one is forced with no choice to take a job that they must travel by private car to, they choose because they believe it is in their interests.do I have to keep repeating this? choice, is for the individual, they make their decision. Owning a car is a choice, working a given job is a choice, living in a particular location is a choice, its a tiny tiny minority who have even one of those "forced" upon them with no choice.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2022, 01:24:18 pm
content: Quote from: Someone on August 19, 2022, 01:17:13 pmOnce again you discount the reality of limited available employment and housing. Do we have to keep repeating that your idyllic world isn't the entire world?

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2022, 01:32:46 pm
content: Don't feed the trolls... Don't become the next Wuerstchenhund.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2022, 01:43:21 pm
content: Quote from: Someone on August 19, 2022, 01:12:26 pmhttps://english.kimnet.nl/publications/publications/2022/02/22/the-widespread-car-ownership-in-the-netherlands"Car ownership used to be a choice but is now a necessity."Monkeh, also, about your parking opinion:"Most Dutch people can park within 10 meters of their homes"If you want my opinion, build better cities and towns.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2022, 01:48:50 pm
content: Part of the issue is when cars became popular (50's onwards) we never made the assertion that if you want to own a car you have to park it on your own land. It would have changed housing infrastructure and probably reduced car dependency - probably both - if this was insisted upon.Instead people just parked it on the street which is odd if you think about it, I'm not allowed to put a skip on the street without oodles of paperwork, a few phone calls and a strict time limit for removal, yet a car can be parked for years, as long as it is taxed and insured!!

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2022, 01:53:57 pm
content: And it's far too late to do it now, so reality unfortunately has diverged from utopian dream.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2022, 02:48:27 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on August 19, 2022, 01:53:57 pmI don't see why an utopia would exclude cars, and other forms of personal transportation. It's literally an object that gives you freedom to do things at other places, whenever you want.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2022, 02:50:16 pm
content: Quote from: tszaboo on August 19, 2022, 02:48:27 pmAre you trolling, or just dense?Time to take nctnico's advice.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2022, 02:52:10 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on August 19, 2022, 02:50:16 pmCan you accept that other people would have different opinion or life goals than yours? And they are just as valid.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2022, 03:06:16 pm
content: Quote from: tszaboo on August 19, 2022, 02:52:10 pmI 200% agree in principle but look at the history of Someone and judge by yourself whether he/she is genuinly participating in discussions or just trolling / stirring up sh!t. You can find pages of Someone and Wuerstchenhund discussing the same thing going round in circles. Argumentum ad nauseam. I have drawn my conclusion a long time ago.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2022, 10:19:18 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on August 19, 2022, 01:24:18 pmLimited, but not singular, there is choice. Your extreme position is plainly nonsense.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2022, 10:38:23 pm
content: Quote from: Cerebus on August 19, 2022, 01:05:42 pmFinally something that can be quantified rather than the sensationalist hand waving.Australian Census 2016 (2021 is not complete and a covid special so not used), how did different groups of essential workers travel to their job?TransportPublicDriverPassengerActiveHomeOff WorkAll Workers11.7%63.4%4.6%5.2%4.7%10.4%Medical Practitioners4.7%76.0%2.3%7.2%0.9%9.0%Nursing Professionals5.5%67.5%3.1%4.2%0.3%19.2%Fire and Emergency Workers2.1%67.0%1.5%5.1%0.3%24.1%Police8.8%66.4%1.5%5.7%0.2%17.5%Ambulance Officers and Paramedics0.8%65.8%0.9%4.9%0.2%27.3%Cleaners and Laundry Workers12.4%61.1%8.3%6.3%1.2%10.7%Rubbish Collectors3.7%72.1%6.7%8.9%1.5%7.7%Essential service employees aren't utilising wildly different transport methods, car as driver floats right around the 2/3rds point just a little above the population average.Or if you take out the days not worked (rotating shift/roster unlike 9-5ers) to see the routine weekday transport method:PublicDriverPassengerActiveHomeAll Workers13.1%70.8%5.2%5.8%5.3%Medical Practitioners5.1%83.5%2.6%7.9%0.9%Nursing Professionals6.9%83.6%3.9%5.2%0.4%Fire and Emergency Workers2.7%88.3%2.0%6.7%0.4%Police10.7%80.4%1.8%6.9%0.2%Ambulance Officers and Paramedics1.1%90.7%1.2%6.8%0.3%Cleaners and Laundry Workers13.9%68.4%9.3%7.1%1.3%Rubbish Collectors4.0%77.6%7.3%9.6%1.6%No clear bias towards those occupations needing a car any more than others. That really needs correcting for income (a much stronger influence on travel mode) as the lowest paying jobs are using carpool/ride share (passenger) at a higher rate (as do for example construction labourers). The benefits of a private car is elevated in some situations, but there are still choices.

author: gnuarm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2022, 07:12:34 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on August 19, 2022, 01:48:38 amYou can't seem to separate this moment from the future. Yes, I agree that as of this moment, there are problems for some people to charge a BEV at home. But to assert it will not change, that it can not change is absurd.Economic pressures will require every property owner to provide BEV charging just like they currently provide Internet, cable and other services, your protestations aside.QuoteBut you said I was investing in a vehicle that was impractical forme.Again, you can't seem to think a few years ahead. Ok, you will live in the past riding a horse if you want to. Enjoy the fertilizer in your garden.

author: gnuarm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2022, 07:26:40 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on August 19, 2022, 02:09:55 amNo one has said anything different.QuoteTechnically they are not so much different. It's just a matter of deciding how it is paid for and who is responsible for continuing costs. One very obvious solution is a new type of utility, not unlike the electric company, perhaps even the electric company.Is this really so hard to consider, that we have a need and a way to supply that need should be found? Why are people so close minded to the idea that there are solutions?QuoteSimply not a fact. I challenge you to find a solution. You have been made the head commissioner of EV development for Australia and the fate of your country is in your hands! Now, where do you start?QuoteFortunately this "convenience point" is vastly outweighed by the savings of time you currently spend filling your tank at the gas station every week. 5 minutes x 52 times a year gives 260 minutes a year or 4:20. That's a lot of BEV trip charging, over 2,000 miles. Do you drive 2,000 miles/3,200 km of trips?I really get tired of hearing the whining about time spent charging from all the people who have not even tried to understand the change in the paradigm. People are just too used to the idea of running the tank down, then running to the gas station to fill up. THAT'S THE INCONVENIENT auto model. Instead of the car telling you when to fill, you simply keep the car topped off every night. How much more simple could it be?So here's another question. What will you do with all the gas stations when they close? What can they become after the leaky gas tanks are pulled from the ground and the mess cleaned up?

author: gnuarm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2022, 08:05:11 pm
content: Quote from: Cerebus on August 19, 2022, 02:33:55 amHappy to. What's the problem to be solved? If it's charging BEVs, the obvious solution is to install charging.Next!QuoteUK has 33 million cars * £1,500 per EVSE = £46 billion. Let's say half of those are installed at home by the owners. Another 25% are installed in apartment and condo parking facilities at the owners' expense. That leaves us with 25% that need to be installed, so about £10 billion, give or take.1) Add a car tax at time of sale of £330 and you will have the money needed to install charging everywhere cars are parked. This tax can be designated as an infrastructure tax and specifically stated to exist for just 15 years.2) Grant a monopoly to a public utility (including a new one) for the purpose of installing charging at appropriate locations. The utility will provide the capital outlay and have regulated profits just like the electric and water companies.3) Provide incentives for commercial investment in appropriate charging facilities. Allow competition to provide charging where charging is needed.Are these enough options? I suppose there is going to be much nitpicking.QuoteWhich are fast for level 2 charging and EXACTLY what you want!!! BEVs are not gas fueled smoke belchers. You don't stand around waiting for them to charge. You charge when they are parked, which is 95% of the time. Parked at home, be charging. Parked at work, be charging. Parked which shopping or at a movie, be charging.I remember years ago, Ed Begley Jr told people that EVs were very practical if you just remember, ABC, Always Be Charging. You don't need to take that literally, but the point is you should forget the mindset of the ICE overlord telling you to "feed me"! Just give it a binky whenever it is parked.QuoteYes, 100 level 2 chargers per day is very doable. Thank you for showing this.QuoteTo help with clarity, the fast chargers are needed for charging while you wait, such as on trips. They are typically located along highways. Level 2 charging is used for the daily, routine, overnight charging.Did the UK ban the sale of ICE by 2030? That's very progressive. Clearly not everyone in the UK is defeatist.QuoteYes, it is cheaper to charge at home. You probably don't want to use fast charging. You have to wait around for that needing to move your car when done or pay a fee for occupying the spot. Level 2 charging is intended to happen while you do other things, so they typically don't charge idle fees.

author: gnuarm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2022, 08:20:29 pm
content: Quote from: pcprogrammer on August 19, 2022, 05:51:23 amThat's a bit silly. Not allowing obstructions on sidewalks is a very reasonable restriction. It does not prevent the installation of a permanent connection point for BEV charging. This is something local governments will need to address.QuoteI hope you understand the increased efficiency of the BEV power process is so much more efficient that it results in only a third of the pollution, even when the electricity is generated from coal! So in the short term, BEVs are a 66% improvement in pollution and longer term they can use renewables.QuoteOk, forget storage. How about charging during the day? BEVs and renewable energy sources are the perfect marriage. Most renewables are intermittent and require storage if they will become the 100% energy solution. What do BEVs have, STORAGE!!! You can charge when the energy is available, then drive your BEV all week in bad weather, blocking the sun and the wind not blowing! Not that this really happens. Wind is very seldom at 0%. The same is true for solar during the day. Even on cloudy days solar can still generate power. But your BEVs will be able to ride through nearly all outages.QuoteIf you had any idea of the magnitude of the wind over the Earth's surface, you would realize this is simply not a real concern.QuoteSo it's Henny Penny? It's a problem until we prove it's not a problem? You should take a look at how far apart wind turbines are installed.QuoteHuh??? What???QuoteWe know they are much, much smaller than the very well measured impacts of burning fossil fuels. So, if, in 40 years, we find the wind turbines are a problem, we can accelerate our efforts in fusion power and put an end to the energy problem once and for all.QuoteDo you even have simulations that show thereisa problem? No, you are just wide eye, pie in the sky, spitballing.QuoteWould you like the change?

author: gnuarm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2022, 08:23:09 pm
content: Quote from: pcprogrammer on August 19, 2022, 05:53:47 amNow that I understand it, yes, that's a great comparison. The only real issue with charging points is the cost. PCs originally cost thousands of dollars, coming down in price as the volumes ramped up and technology improved. The cost is very similar to a charge point and nearly all homes have at least one, if not multiple. It all happened over a decade or two.Great analogy!!!

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2022, 08:27:08 pm
content: Quote from: gnuarm on August 20, 2022, 07:12:34 pmProperty owners provide none of these things.Here's an example from a friend of mine of a street which will be problematic:https://goo.gl/maps/62227FQWX5SyFpaj6I await your suggestions.E: Or how about this one:https://goo.gl/maps/8nbw3BvUu3bhknUH9

author: gnuarm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2022, 08:37:10 pm
content: Quote from: Miyuki on August 19, 2022, 07:46:28 amLOL Your conclusion does not follow from the facts. The size of installations is still small because ramping up something like this is a process and takes some time. The point is vanadium flow batteries are the better match to the need of grid storage, which has to supply much higher energy levels at lower prices than lithium can provide.Vanadium has not been fully commercialized, so the price is not as low as it will be. So give it a few more years and you will see it dominate grid storage.QuoteYeah, so why is that a problem? As long as the renewable resources are low enough in cost idling them is not a significant factor. You do realize that most regions idle 50% of generating resourcesevery nightas demand drops, right?QuoteUh, very expensive wasteful behavior. That's the problem with nuclear, the cost. It is only close to economical if it is run at 100%, 24/7. The down time for refueling is a significant impact on the cost.QuoteSo far, hydrogen has not proven to be economically practical. Perhaps when electricity is near free it will be more cost effective.QuoteYeah, that is the future. Oddly enough, many dishwashers allow delayed start to the night, with the thinking that's when it is best, but with large amounts of solar energy, some areas would be better served running them at midday. Eventually, every appliance will be smart enough to know the energy price and the user's habits, to optimize cost of use and load on the grid. This will probably require some standardize means of communicating data for this. Presently the utilities are so far from this level of modernization that it's not funny.

author: gnuarm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2022, 08:40:53 pm
content: Quote from: tszaboo on August 19, 2022, 12:06:52 pmOk, you can own a car. Doesn't mean you, or anyone else can drive it. It has to meet requirements to be operated on the road.Is that clear enough?

author: gnuarm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2022, 08:55:51 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on August 19, 2022, 03:06:16 pmYeah, there's no shortage of that here.

author: gnuarm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2022, 08:59:43 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on August 20, 2022, 08:27:08 pmSo no one in your city has Internet, cable or other facilities?Don't be pedantic. When I said, "every property owner to provide BEV charging just like they currently provide Internet, cable and other services", I meant access. No, they don't pay for your cable or Internet service, but you would not have access if they didn't allow the building to be wired for it. Same with charging.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2022, 09:01:56 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on August 20, 2022, 08:27:08 pmInstall drainage gutters like these:https://energysavingtrust.org.uk/case-study/oxgul-e/allowing those who live on the same side that they park on to charge their vehicles from their home.Add on street infrastructure according to extra needs, like homes on the alternate side, visitors, etc. Or negotiate with residents to have public EV infrastructure fitted to their property in return for no standing charge or some discount off charging.Quote from: Monkeh on August 20, 2022, 08:27:08 pmMuch the same.Some of these issues can be resolved by other means of public charging, like at work, supermarket, or electric "petrol" stations.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2022, 09:13:05 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on August 20, 2022, 09:01:56 pmThat still doesn't solve the problem with people having no fixed parking spaces. Over here it is first comes, first served. If you are late, then you have to park your car far away from your home. Street level charging can only be solved by having a public charging point at each parking spot (and then some because typically there aren't enough parking spots to begin with). But that is a rather expensive solution. With better batteries that allow charging in a few minutes and gas-station like super chargers, things will be much easier and more economic. At home charging is a crutch and shouldn't be an end goal for charging infrastructure.

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2022, 09:34:50 pm
content: Quote from: gnuarm on August 20, 2022, 08:05:11 pmAre you actively trying to portray yourself as a fool and a gobshite?QuoteAgain you are demonstrating your parochiality and your inability to think more than a few 1000 feet from your front door while ignoring those who actually know and live in the places you are makingex cathedrapronouncements about. Toassumethat 25% of the population live in "apartment and condo" with dedicated parking facilities proves that you know nothing about the country you're offering an easy fix for. For a start, nobody in the UK lives in anything they call a "condo". I won't bother explaining how it really is or put numbers to it because you'll just ignore them.Needless to say, your numbers are way off. Good luck getting the electricity company to merely connect a supply to a charge point for the money you think it will cost to connect, supply and install the whole thing. As I said before, you clearly have no idea about infrastructure costs. I've had to contract people to lay and populate ducting in public roads and conduct streetworks - it costs a small fortune and even if you have "code powers" with which one can force local authorities to let you dig up their roads it still involves a mountain of expensive paperwork before the first pickaxe is wielded or the first digger ignition key turned.QuoteI am struggling to decide whether you're being deliberately obtuse or are just plain dim. There aresix thousandpublic charging points forallthe PHEVs and BEVs extant in thewholeof London. Just how can you missthatpoint and wander off onto a monologue on what's a suitable style of charging as if the point wasaboutthem being 7kW chargers. That wasnotthe point. The relevance of them mostly being only 7kW chargers is that makes them difficult for vehicles to share them serially in quick order. Indeed they would have to charge overnight, which is bugger all use if there are 6000 public chargers for an estimated 263,000 EVs in London. Only an idiot would fail to see that is a significant barrier to adoption of EVs by people who only have access to on-street parking and thus are compelled to use on-street charging, which is the majority of Londoners.You still seem to completely ignore that for themajorityof Britons home charging is not practical or possible, and is not likely to become so in the foreseable future. Nobody, but nobody, is going to buy an EV if they can't first guarantee that they can charge it. You can handwave as much as you like about how easy it is to install charge points, but in the real world they are not being installed at the rate needed to support growth of EV ownership. If it is as easy as you claim and as cheap as you claim then it must make commercial sense and so people should be falling over themselves to do it. Yet they are not. Perhaps, just perhaps, it isn't as cheap and easy as you claim and that's why it's not happening.You also seem to manage to completely ignore that I'm an EV driver and lecture me as if I've no clue about how they charge, how much charge they need, when they need it etc. etc.You're so tied up in your own little world that you seem incapable of taking in information from people with first hand experience that differs from your own.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2022, 10:15:14 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on August 20, 2022, 09:13:05 pmIt does solve the need, if it's public charging. Recall a 20 mile range per day would mean the average user of a 200 mile car is charging less than once per week. So if you put chargers in that cover say 20% of all spaces then that would cover demand fairly comfortably I suspect.Fast charging is absolutely important but I think you're missing a key advantage of EVs if you don't take advantage of slow trickle charging, even if that's not done when parked at home.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2022, 11:25:23 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on August 20, 2022, 10:15:14 pmI cant stop laughing at the ridiculous extremes in this thread.person A) car parking has no costperson B) car parking is too expensive and the free alternative is too costly in other waysFor the UK numbers, here's what I can find, referenced for those who insist (but never seem to provide themselves), pre-pandemic...Annual distance per car 7000 ish/something miles (20 miles per day)https://www.gov.uk/government/statistical-data-sets/nts09-vehicle-mileage-and-occupancyhttps://www.bymiles.co.uk/insure/magazine/mot-data-research-and-analysis/https://www.nimblefins.co.uk/cheap-car-insurance/average-car-mileage-uk33 million carshttps://www.gov.uk/government/statistical-data-sets/vehicle-licensing-statistics-data-tableshttps://www.nimblefins.co.uk/cheap-car-insurance/number-cars-great-britainso with the generous 20kWh/100km, cars evenly spreading their charging is 8GW additional load, incremental increase of 21% over 38GW:https://www.gov.uk/government/collections/electricity-statisticsan average of 240W per car. It is very easy to imagine most of those cars being able to be hooked up to a domestic scale 2.4kW charge point for at least 1/10 of their life. On street charging looks plausible and cheap from an infrastructure standpoint, usual public infrastructure issues of vandalism and how to monetise the service.Replacing infrastructure, petrol stations (which are servicing the current car fleets need for energy). Number of cars per petrol station 4,000:https://www.racfoundation.org/assets/rac_foundation/content/downloadables/racf_deloitte-fuel_retail-jan13.pdfPetrol stations aren't big enough to work as parking for slow charging (10%, 400 cars per site), at a moderate 10kW rate it would be squeezy (2.5%, 100 cars per site) but not unimaginable for a multi-storey car park or car stackers.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2022, 11:37:57 pm
content: Quote from: Someone on August 20, 2022, 11:25:23 pmNot ridiculous nor extreme, just different cases.For some, parking has no ongoing incremental cost. I think I'm in that category, but if you protest you can consider the rancher in Montana.If I lived in Manhattan, I'd probably be person B.Everyone's case is different and most people aren't at the average or median of whatever statistic you are quoting at the moment. I could look around my neighborhood of sunny single-family homes and conclude that everyone can get a BEV and solar panels to charge it, just like me. But I've been enough places to realize that the model that works pretty well here might be problematic elsewhere. What is amusing to me is that someone in different circumstances than you can have solar, a BEV and use rideshare--so they're completely familiar with them all and aren't luddites--but when they point out issues and limitations you dismiss that as 'blinkered thinking' or whatever.QuoteHand-waving much? Cheap? Really? How about $3K to 10K per station, with perhaps that price coming down some with volume. And forget monetizing it, nobody makes money selling EV charging.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2022, 12:25:28 am
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on August 20, 2022, 11:37:57 pmYou cant leave vehicle charging points as free use, they require some monetising or people will find all sorts of creative ways to use the free power. Parking meters in denser areas are already grid connected here so its not some enormous new additional cost out of nowhere. Convincing people they will have to pay for these things seems to be the enormous road-block. If you aren't owning or paying for your parking I have zero sympathy for your lack of options, since its likely others are already paying/subsidising on your behalf.We have parking at work with electric charging /s for some odd reason /s it's charged both per time of use, and per unit of energy charged.Quote from: bdunham7 on August 20, 2022, 11:37:57 pmwalking back and moving your goalpostsnowagain? The vast majority of people have a cost for parking, it varies but its stupid to say its zero. The argument was clearly framed as an opportunity cost across lifetime, which you flatly disputed and keep coming back nosily to say how you were right all along... when you were always talking about something entirely different, and forgot to actually frame that, instead just going straight for claiming what I'm saying/quoting/referencing is "wrong".Freedom to park your car in a convenient location is a cost, the infrastructure to do so (including charging) is a cost borne by yourself or the community. That it has been "free" for people has distorted their view, because it was never free.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2022, 03:17:36 am
content: Quote from: Someone on August 21, 2022, 12:25:28 amI think I've explained it clearly enough, but for many people they are paying for parking whether they use it or not. And I've explained how I account for that. It's not a distorted view, it is a cash accounting view.But since you insist that parking is a vital part of the equation and that people's 'life choices' should be based at least in part on parking options, how about the air? An ICE uses 14 times as much air by weight as it does fuel. Since we account for fuel costs, why not the air?

author: gnuarm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2022, 04:51:04 am
content: Quote from: Cerebus on August 20, 2022, 09:34:50 pmSo where do you charge?

author: gnuarm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2022, 04:59:00 am
content: Quote from: Someone on August 21, 2022, 12:25:28 amThat's not realistic. Why do you think this can not be done in a way that precludes improper use? Do you think people will design vehicles with extra batteries that allow them to steal $5.00 of electricity by sitting out all night charging? Then they can power their home for a few hours during the day? Ok, maybe power where you are is a bit more expensive and we are talking about $10 a day. But it requires a $5,000 battery to implement it. Yeah, a lot of that is going to happen.QuotePaying for what???

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 21, 2022, 10:03:14 am
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on August 20, 2022, 11:37:57 pmEV owners know all too well the litter of charging companies (and their infrastruture) that have gone bust. I think Australia has at least two defunct ones.

author: sokoloff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2022, 11:07:11 am
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on August 20, 2022, 11:37:57 pmAround here (New England, but appears to US-wide), DC fast charging is charged at around 2x the cost of electricity.A lot of office park 6.6kW chargers are charged at the local cost of power but a lot are fed by solar installations (meaning the solar power is effectively being sold at retail rates in the best case).Both of those arrangements feel “fair” to me as an EV driver and I think they could be sustainable economically. Of course I’d rather charge slower and cheaper at home, but I’m happy to pay 75%-100% premium for DC fast charging to let me make a trip I otherwise couldn’t. Likewise for the office charger case: it doesn’t cost me anything more, so why not just plug in at work?

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2022, 11:18:56 am
content: Quote from: tom66 on August 20, 2022, 10:15:14 pmThere is no advantage of slow charging at all. My estimate is that a slow, public charging point costs 5k to 10k euro in a 10 year time span. That money comes from your pocket and you get nothing in return.You are also way to optimistic about how people deal with shared infrastructure. My asshole neighbour across the street will happily punch you in the face if you dare park in 'his' parking spot in the front of his home. The police had to come several times already to calm him down.Another problem is that (at least in the Netherlands) a parking space with a charger is no longer a parking space but a space where you charge your car. Once charging is done, you need to move your car (the fine is 90 euro). That just doesn't work with overnight charging; you'd have to get out of bed during the night to move your car (or be awakened by an angry neighbour that needs to charge a car). And that brings me to the next problem: charging spots take scarse parking spots away. In the Netherlands most streets have less parking spaces than cars (by design) and there is very little room for expansion. Earlier this year they actually removed two charging spots from the street where I live because the parking spaces can't be missed.One solution would be to have charging points with multiple outlets (say 6 to 8 ) that can serve several cars that are parked in a row without needing specific charging space, but that idea seemed not to have occured yet at the companies that develop / install charging points. And it would mean needing long cables that litter the street; it could be that regulations are blocking this idea already.But that still doesn't solve the principle problem that public charging is very expensive to begin with. None of the companies currently active in the Netherlands is making money from their charging points. They will have to earn their money back at some point and the problem is that you can't choose from which company to charge from; there will be only one in your street jacking up the prices for as long as they can. At some point prices will become regulated for sure, but that will take decades (*)* Note: district heating is something similar. One company that serves a whole area without consumers being able to switch to a different supplier. After 30 years of lobbying and proceedings, the Dutch government finally created a law that limits the prices for district heating.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2022, 11:24:26 am
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on August 21, 2022, 03:17:36 amDon't bother. Parking costs don't matter when comparing TCOs between cars. The parking costs will be identical so they drop out of the equation.

author: sokoloff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2022, 11:38:36 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on August 21, 2022, 11:18:56 amWell then don’t I feel like an idiot having done over 50% of my charging for 7.5 years at around 1.5kW peak and, except for exactly 4 DC fast charge sessions, all the rest at 6.6kW peak.The big advantage for me was to have a car that was usually “full” with 30 seconds of effort. That’s hundreds of petrol station visits avoided. The second advantage was lesser battery degradation when slow charging to full rather than fast charging to full.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2022, 11:54:38 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on August 21, 2022, 11:18:56 amWe've been over this before.Let's pretend your 10k euro cost is correct. I would argue it is not, but for the sake of analysis let's go with it. If the electricity is just 0.05 EUR extra per kWh above the cost price (ex VAT, other taxes etc.), then 10k euro takes 200,000kWh to pay back. That is 28,500 hours of charging at 7kW. There are 87,600 hours in 10 years, so that charger only needs to have >1/3rd occupancy to be profitable.Now the reality is that installing ten chargers in one street/car park costs much less, per charger, than one charger, because the infrastructure is shared. It may cost just 1,000 euros per space.Car parking spaces themselves cost some 20,000 euros each to construct. Many of them exist already, sure, but that is land which is dedicated to the car over being a shop or a house or something else. So it is not as if that land is free. EV charging offers yet another way to make money from that land.Economically it's a no brainer.Quote from: nctnico on August 21, 2022, 11:18:56 amOK, assholes are assholes. Not sure what this has to do with EVs. The infrastructure will be shared just as street parking is shared.Quote from: nctnico on August 21, 2022, 11:18:56 amThe spots I've seen in London tolerate overnight charging from 8pm to 9am, even if the charging finishes before then. If you have enough infrastructure, it's not a problem!Quote from: nctnico on August 21, 2022, 11:18:56 amA four-way head is probably just about possible if positioned correctly but you may need a 8-10m long cable. Most cars come with 4m or less cable length, though you can of course buy longer cables. An issue with current EVs is that charge points tend to be on random spots all over the vehicle. Mine is under the VW badge up front, but the e-Golf is in the normal petrol filler place (as bodywork is ~same as petrol Golf). There needs to be consistency here. I personally prefer the charging position of ID.3/Ioniq 5/Tesla, which is rear on driver or passenger side. Ideally there would be a decision on just one side as well, but given manufacturers of petrol cars can't make their minds up on this I may be an optimist.Quote from: nctnico on August 21, 2022, 11:18:56 amAs you can see here and elsewhere I've justified how charging can be profitable even with small margins. The problem is that there aren't enough EVs. We need government subsidies or private investors to take a risk but it is very chicken and egg. Fortunately it seems to be turning the right way. I do think it will take the better part of a decade to have the right level of infrastructure though.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2022, 12:12:12 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on August 21, 2022, 11:54:38 amNo. I wrote 'costs'. As in installation and ongoing costs like having a helpdesk, permits, rent, payment infrastructure, maintenance, fees to have a grid connection, etc. That is the investment from the company that owns the charging point. They will want to make a healthy profit margin and interest from their investment. That money comes from your pocket. You'll likely be sharing a charging point with 3 or 4 others at most (due to distance between home/charging point) so you can see that the infrastructure costs are quite high when many of the cars are BEVs and there are many charging points.Electricity from a charging point doesn't cost 0.05 euro above cost price, it is typically double the consumer cost price! And even at double the consumer price for electricity, they aren't making a profit. There is a very good reason charging point operators hide their prices; they are insanely high. The Dutch government had to step in to force charging point operators to be more open about their pricing but they are still trying to be secretive about it. That story still has some chapters to be written...Edit: also 20k euro for a parking space sounds way too high. Maybe in Manhattan but not in a regular city. Recently I got quoted 25 euro/m^2 for pavement work. Over here land (to build on) costs around 150 euro per m^2. So a 6mx3m parking space costs 25*18 + 150*18 = around 3.2k euro.

author: sokoloff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2022, 01:39:13 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on August 21, 2022, 12:12:12 pm50% gross margin isn’t “insanely high” in my book.It’s enough that I’ll prefer to charge at home when possible, but when I need it, that price seems fair (particularly in light of your claim that they’re still not making a profit, but I’d feel it was fair even if they were making a profit).

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2022, 01:46:47 pm
content: Quote from: sokoloff on August 21, 2022, 01:39:13 pmUntil you start calculating fuel costs for a hybrid; then the hybrid is more cost effective. Take the uncertainty of future price gouging into account and you see why buying a BEV is not such a good idea if you have to depend solely on public charging and want to drive the car for 5 to 10 years.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2022, 04:43:48 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on August 21, 2022, 01:46:47 pmEspecially with the current electricity prices. I also just love how a company can say they deliver 100% wind energy, and then claim that the price of electricity went up because of some global conflict. Oh dear, did that conflict stop the winds somehow?Also I hear someone got a 3 month contract for 60 cent/kwh. At that price some diesel generators might be cheaper than buying it from the grid.

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2022, 06:02:15 pm
content: Quote from: tszaboo on August 21, 2022, 04:43:48 pmAlso a nice bit of bull shit that they state to deliver 100% wind energy. Or did they knock on your door to install a special electricity meter that only allows their green colored electrons to passAs long as it is all delivered over a single cable there is no telling if your electricity is green. It is all administrative paperwork.

author: gnuarm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2022, 07:35:46 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on August 21, 2022, 11:18:56 amThis shows a fundamental lack of understanding of BEV charging. If you fast charge, the car is setting your pace. When not charging, a car on the fast charger ties up significant capital. So you have to disconnect the car when the charging is done, to prevent extra idle fees.Level 2 charging is actually quite adequate for most uses of BEVs. With an average use of 40 miles per day, this only requires 10 kWh, or less than 2 hours on a typical level 2 charger. Much less capital tied up, so usually no idle fees. The car can be charged any time it is parked.QuoteSorry, what cost is that exactly?QuoteHow are irrational people relevant? Did the police not deal with him? Did the police say, "Good thing this wasn't over a charger or there's nothing we could do"?QuoteSounds like your government fails to understand the nature of BEV charging. That's a local problem.QuoteExactly! This shows that you need to get that law changed!!!QuoteReally? So the plan is to make it as disfunctional as possible to own a car? I guess they are really going to have fun with BEVs then. Maybe moving to another country is in order to find a rational government.QuoteSorry, what does that mean, "without needing specific charging space". Are you talking about having a lot of curb and letting people park where they can fit a car?QuoteIt doesn't need to be. The equipment is not very expensive, the parking spot costs more. The electricity is not very expensive, well, not everywhere. Still, you have to pay for the electricity no matter what. So where is the expensive part?QuoteLike most utilities and public monopolies, the rates can be regulated. That's where this will be headed. After all, it's just a matter of selling electricity.QuoteAll this time it was a monopoly, but not regulated? That's strange.

author: gnuarm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2022, 07:40:04 pm
content: Quote from: sokoloff on August 21, 2022, 11:38:36 amPeople often think of gassing up a car as near zero inconvenience, but it is something you have to think about, in addition to driving there and the time filling up. We have integrated the ICE paradigm into our lifestyle and don't give it a second thought, even though it does take time and effort.Now, with BEVs, we try to force them into the same mindset of waiting for the battery to be near empty, then "filling it up" and the time for that seems very long. In reality it is not, because you simply don't go to a filling station and "fill it up". You just plug in every evening. People who have not driven a BEV don''t understand the simplicity of it.

author: gnuarm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2022, 07:44:11 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on August 21, 2022, 01:46:47 pmI'd like to see those numbers. But real numbers, not made up stuff.If a hybrid gets 50 mpg, that's still twice the cost of fueling a BEV (at US prices of fuel, not sure how high gasoline is in the UK or EU) and a hybrid has other costs like maintenance because of the ICE. It also spews pollution and simply does not address the carbon problem at all.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2022, 07:44:55 pm
content: Owning a BEV is like going from a Nokia 3310i to an iPhone.OK, on the one hand it's slightly inconvenient to plug in every night, rather than 'refuel' every two weeks. But, on the other hand, it takeszero time, because it happens while you sleep. And besides the odd very long road trip, if you can manage this nightly charging routine (or even nightly-once-every-week) then it can work out more convenient than petrol. And, like the new phone, it gives you many more advantages and it's much nicer to use.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2022, 07:52:33 pm
content: Quote from: gnuarm on August 21, 2022, 07:44:11 pmIf you factor in pollution like NOx and SO2 (the stuff that makes humans sick) then the hybrids wins hands down. I have posted the calculations a long time ago. Even with relatively clean electricity in the Netherlands, a BEV emits 5 times more SO2 compared to an efficient hybrid.And hybrids address the CO2 problem for sure. As long as BEVs compensate non-hybrid ICE car sales AND electricity used for production and driving isn't 100% renewable, BEVs do nothing for CO2 reduction. Don't forget that BEVs have a much larger CO2 footprint due to production as well. You need to drive around 150k km to break even compared to a regular ICE car. With an efficient hybrid the BEV is likely to lose (which is why you never see hybrids mentioned in CO2 comparisons between BEV / ICE). In China BEVs are an environmental dissaster compared to hybrids due to the amount of coal fired power plants. Toyota has already shown that reduction of CO2 emission is possible without selling any BEVs... All easy to verify information.BEVs have come a decade too early. Sure, BEVs are nice at some point in the future but not right now. With better battery technology and renewables further developed, BEVs will be a much better and mature product. In 20 to 30 years from now the current BEVs and charging infrastructure will be laughed upon just like the old 'portable' phones or going on internet with a 28k modem.Quote from: tom66 on August 21, 2022, 07:44:55 pmI want neither phones. I have a good old POTS phone on my desk. Doesn't need charging at all and batteries never wear. Having to plug in a car every day just sucks. There is no place on earth where that is an improvement. It is a tedious action I can do without. I'm not a fan of having to fuel my car but at least that doesn't need to happen very often. Wireless charging a BEV would be a true improvement though.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2022, 08:23:29 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on August 21, 2022, 07:52:33 pmOk, we get it. You don't like EVs. But, really, complaining about plugging one in is a bit like complaining about having to press the brake now and then. Compared to the overall action of driving a car it really seems pretty bloody minimal!

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2022, 08:30:22 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on August 21, 2022, 07:44:55 pmYes, and owning an electric car now will feel like having an iPhone 2G when the 5 comes out. Solid state lithium, twice the range from the same battery, no fire.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2022, 08:30:35 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on August 21, 2022, 07:52:33 pmIf you have your own garage space with an L2 EVSE in it, it takes 10-15 seconds every night (at most) and really is a big improvement over going to a gas station once a week or so. I can't imagine an easier or more convenient way of fueling your car.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2022, 08:42:07 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on August 21, 2022, 08:23:29 pmI don't don't like BEVs; you are absolutely wrong about that. I do want a new car to be an improvement though. It would be better if the car didn't need any meddling at all. Driving a car is already something from the stone age (especially with a manual gearbox -looking forward to driving an automatic hybrid-). I want less meddling, not more. Again, plugging in/out all the time and messing with (wet/dirty) wires really isn't an improvement. It is needing more pampering. Especially for someone like me who is prone to forgetting that. I can't count the times I don't even lock the car. The car is no longer on my mind; I'm at my destination so travelling things are done. The car is there to serve me, not the other way around.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2022, 08:49:09 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on August 21, 2022, 07:44:55 pmAnd for some it's like not being allowed to charge nightly but having to take your phone to an Apple Store half an hour out of your way and wait three hours until it's charged.

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2022, 09:34:01 pm
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on August 21, 2022, 08:30:35 pmAlso when it's plugged in you can take advantage of the electrically driven climate control system to pre-condition your car for a particular departure time without using up any of your battery charge (well, you can on mine anyway). In the recent unseasonably hot weather in the UK that's something I've been very pleased to have; more than pleased, smug in fact. No doubt I'll be equally pleased, and smug, if we have anything that looks like a winter this year - interior warm, any frost melted off and a toasty warm seat for my backside.

author: gnuarm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2022, 09:54:37 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on August 21, 2022, 07:52:33 pmLike I said, I'd like to see the numbers. I don't believe for a minute that a hybrid can be lower pollution than a BEV. I'm sure that's why you didn't post actual data rather than just a claim.QuoteYes, by emitting CO2, lots of it.QuoteLOL I don't know what to make of you. A hybrid, is just a slightly more efficient than a standard ICE because of the small advantages (~30%) of adding the electric motor and battery. So it produces around 2/3 the pollutants of an ICE. Then you claim a BEV achieves zero improvement over an ICE simply because some of the electricity is derived from fossil fuels. You clearly have not looked at any of the data. BEVs are so much more efficient than ICE, that the overall process uses around a third of the energy as ICE. Large power plants are much easier to clean up than small car engines. Where in this process does the BEV lose all these gains?QuoteAnother falsehood. There is a very small difference in CO2 emitted during fabrication of ICE and BEV. This falsehood comes from looking solely at the battery, rather than comparing the cars. Further, this requires the fabrication to be run from fossil fuels, which some factories don't. Tesla Nevada factory uses large solar arrays for much of their energy and they plan to do the same in Berlin and Texas.QuoteMore BS. It's more like 10k to 15k miles.Quote"likely"You mean you have no idea. I already know that.QuotePlease show us the links.QuoteWireless charging means you don't need to spend 10 seconds plugging and unplugging a connector. LOL You must be one lazy dude!

author: gnuarm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2022, 09:57:58 pm
content: Quote from: tszaboo on August 21, 2022, 08:30:22 pmCompared to driving an ICE in the meantime, I guess that would be the phone on the wall with the hand crank??? "Hello, Thelma? Connect me to Betty Lou, please!"When will the solid state batteries be available for sale? I mean, which decade?

author: gnuarm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2022, 10:01:30 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on August 21, 2022, 08:49:09 pmAnd those people can wait until the chargers are installed where they park. BEVs are happening. There's no stopping them. Charging is going to happen because there will be demand for it. Like everything else on this Earth, if there is demand, there will be supply.It's not like everyone can have a BEV right now. Get in line and wait your turn. There are a lot of people with more vision who are ready to buy right now.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2022, 10:06:56 pm
content: Quote from: Cerebus on August 21, 2022, 09:34:01 pmThere really is something quite amusing about watching your neighbour hurredly scrape ice off their windscreen as you get into your car, do a single swipe of the windscreen wiper and drive right off... all in a perfectly warm car with all windows demisted.And in the summer months, I can get into a cool car, it works both ways.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2022, 10:56:27 pm
content: Quote from: gnuarm on August 21, 2022, 10:01:30 pmYou know, I have plenty of vision, and a drive.. and absolutely no way to recoup the cost of even a second hand BEV within the next 10-15 years.It's amazing how there are situations which differ from yours.

author: gnuarm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2022, 11:37:55 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on August 21, 2022, 10:06:56 pmI have a BEV and it's not quite that simple. You have to take a few seconds to unplug the charging cable and hang it up! And that's almost every day!!! God, the tedium!https://www.chargehanger.com/At least you can keep it neat.

author: gnuarm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2022, 11:39:56 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on August 21, 2022, 10:56:27 pmIf you can't recoup the price differential of a BEV over 15 years, maybe your mistake is driving! You clearly drive so little, you should probably just use Uber or public transport. Some people just shouldn't be driving, I guess.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2022, 12:19:13 am
content: Quote from: gnuarm on August 21, 2022, 11:39:56 pmMy mistake is engaging the wilfully ignorant.Still waiting on your suggestions for the streets I mentioned. tom66's suggestion is great, if only there were more than two feet of pavement and anyone was going to pay to dig up and properly reinstate the entire street to suit. But therein lies the issue: Who's paying to totally rebuild towns and cities? And no, the property owners won't - whether they live there or are renting it out.

author: sokoloff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2022, 12:22:11 am
content: Quote from: Monkeh on August 22, 2022, 12:19:13 amThat appears to be an epidemic in this thread.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2022, 01:11:39 am
content: Quote from: Monkeh on August 21, 2022, 10:56:27 pmEven without parking/charging access issues, BEVs dont stack up economically for many countries/use cases. Without subsidies and/or fleet/average fuel economy requirements (Australia as an example) BEVs are not cost competitive. Looking out 10-15 years requires a guess/bet on future energy prices, so is very hard to make any certain predictions.

author: gnuarm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2022, 01:37:38 am
content: Quote from: Monkeh on August 22, 2022, 12:19:13 amNo one. The UK will forever be hopelessly out of date and irrelevant. That has been the path forward in the UK since the end of WWII.I'm glad you have come to this conclusion.

author: gnuarm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2022, 01:40:43 am
content: Quote from: Someone on August 22, 2022, 01:11:39 amNot really. It is extremely unlikely that solar will increase in price. So if nothing else, you can cap your electric costs by installing solar.It is a safe bet that gasoline prices will go up. In 20 years, when there are barely any ICE left on the roads, the gasoline infrastructure will be largely dismantled and gas will both be very hard to find, and very expensive.

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2022, 04:31:49 am
content: Quote from: gnuarm on August 22, 2022, 01:37:38 amYes, yes, it is a great shame that the UK doesn't have any hope of keeping up with the achievements of places like Puerto Rico. We only manage to commit 1.2 murders per 100,000 inhabitants, which is shamefully low compared to Puerto Rico's 18.5 - we clearly need to try harder. Perhaps if we work very hard at it we could also emulate your magnificent recent performances at the Summer and Winter Olympics. Sadly we will never, no matter how much effort we put in, match your standing in the Pan American Games as unfortunately we are ineligible to compete. And how could The Royal Ballet hope to compete with the world renown Balleteatro Nacional de Puerto Rico, or the English National Opera, Glynebourne, The Proms, the Royal Festival Hall, the Globe or the Royal Shakespeare Company or any of the piddling theatres and concert halls of London, Glasgow, Edinburgh, Liverpool, Birmingham and other little provincial cities even get a look in when compared to the dazzling array of arts venues of Puerto Rico, world famous as they are.I realise that Puerto Rico's massive EV fleet of 690 vehicles in 2020 makes a resident of the country an obvious and natural expert on the subject, but perhaps you could show a little humility and not constantly flaunt the natural intellectual superiority of Puerto Ricans (as evidenced by the stellar number of Nobel Prizes awarded to inhabitants compared to the UK's embarrassing figure of only 138) in front of the rest of us. Similarly, shaming the rest of us with the whole 11 public charge points in a Puerto Rico that show up on chargemap.com is just being needlessly boastful, and leaves those of us in countries like the UK with a mere 33,281 public charge points showing up on Zap Map feeling embarrassed and ashamed of our mere 520,000 BEVs on the road.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 22, 2022, 05:07:53 am
content: Quote from: gnuarm on August 22, 2022, 01:40:43 amIn my case it's now been 24 months owning an EV and it's done 32,000km.An ICE car at say 8L/100km would use 1280 litres/year and at say $1.80/L that would cost me about $2300 in petrol per year. 10 years is $23,000, not including inflation related or oil market related cost increases of petrol, or maintenance. Not including reduction in home electricity cost. And I agree it's a given that the cost of petrol is very unlikely to drop.EV's (and solar), from financial perspective are about paying a lot more up front now, for less ongoing cost in the future. But then you also have to factor in the desired longevity of the car and possble battery refurbishment costs.

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2022, 06:14:54 am
content: Quote from: Cerebus on August 21, 2022, 09:34:01 pmI'm not judging, but these luxuries use energy, and as long as not all energy comes from "renewables" it counteracts the whole purpose of the changeover to a BEV. Sure ICE owners turn on the engine to heat the windshield and warm the car before they start driving, which is also very bad. I make it a habit to first do what is needed to prepare for driving and start the car when ready to take of. Already did so when I was still working. Just put on a pair of gloves and use a good scraper to clear the windshield.Furthermore it shows the big flaw in the whole idea of counteracting the human impact on nature. The human race should reduce consumption of especially energy in the fight against climate change. But what we do is just the opposite. Sure I have build myself a big house I keep warm in winter, but don't need to cool in summer. Like to play the no children card hereRead SiliconWizard his post here:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/dodgy-technology/why-no-dodgy-quantum-entanglement-technology/msg4372342/#msg4372342It reflects what I'm saying.The whole energy transition thing is still aimed at a growing and not stabilizing economy. People are very concerned about the environment and climate change and sooth their conscience with owning a BEV, installing solar panels, switching to green energy and recycling, but it should not impact their lives to the extend that they can't have three vacations a year or what other luxuries they enjoy.

author: gnuarm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2022, 08:44:54 am
content: Quote from: Cerebus on August 22, 2022, 04:31:49 amExactly. It's not about ability, it's about mindset. We are limited by what we think we can do.Oh, and if you are going to dis a group, you might at least learn something about them. For starters, Puerto Rico is not a country. It's a US territory. So all your negative BS is misplaced. Compare the Nobel Prize winners of the US to the UK. 400 vs the not even close 138 for the second place UK. Yeah, thatisembarrassing foryou.Why are you being so petty? I was simply trying to make a point with sarcasm. So many people from the UK have such a defeatist attitude about BEVs. It makes me wonder how the UK ever got anything done. There has to be someone in the UK that can figure it out. I guess it will take a while to find that one person.

author: gnuarm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2022, 08:52:35 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on August 22, 2022, 05:07:53 amYou seem to understand some of the issues. But please keep in mind that there's today's situation, but BEV prices will be dropping. Just in the last year, both Nissan and GM have dropped the prices of their BEVs to under $30,000US. In GM's case, they may be treating it as a loss leader because of their battery debacle.My point is, while today, BEVs are only cheaper after accounting for a decade or two of operational cost savings, they will be dropping in price, so that in 10 years, when nearly all new cars are BEVs, they will be on price parity with ICE. Then it is all savings from day one, forward.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2022, 08:58:24 am
content: Quote from: gnuarm on August 22, 2022, 08:44:54 amI think you're being a little unfair to the UK, frankly. I would argue the US is more opposed to electric vehicles with their obsession over massive trucks/SUVs, driving to places that most people walk/cycle to and insistence that a vehicle is impractical unless it can drive 1,000 miles in a day non stop. PR is a small territory, you can easily cross from one side to another on a single charge with almost every EV made today, so your view of how accepted electric vehicles are may be influenced by that.The UK has a well-developed charging network, a large number of charging companies based in the UK which have expanded into Europe, and equipment manufacturers and suppliers. We have a factory that is supposed to be building new EV batteries (we'll see if it takes off), Nissan makes the Leaf for Europe & UK here, the plug-in hybrid-electric London taxi (100km all electric range) is made in Birmingham, UK and we've got a few EV startups too (ARRIVAL is the big one having recently won a contract to supply Royal Mail with custom built EV vans.)Engineers in general, which is predominantly the membership base of this forum, seem to have a very luddite-like view of the world and seem to be very opposed to change. This is not just in relation to EVs, it's things like smartphones, "the cloud", heck I've even seen an argument here where a chap was insistent that his Ni-Cad drill was better than a new Li-Ion one because he can leave the battery at 0% for a year and it'll still work. Never mind the fact it can do half the torque and half the work before going flat.Of the EE friends I know, only about two or three are actively interested in electric vehicles. Most are on the fence and a few are opposed in similar ways to several of the posters might be here.I imagine it will begin to shift over time, nothing changes overnight.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2022, 09:00:13 am
content: Quote from: tom66 on August 22, 2022, 08:58:24 amDon't feed the troll.

author: gnuarm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2022, 09:01:03 am
content: Quote from: pcprogrammer on August 22, 2022, 06:14:54 amThat's not realistic. We use energy in many ways, for creature comfort. The fact that it is tied to using a car doesn't make it counterproductive to have a BEV.QuoteExactly! I know someone who warms the car for 15 minutes or so, so the kids don't have to sit in a cold car. Some people do, some people don't. I use seat and steering wheel warmers.QuoteWhich is an unachievable goal. It's not possible, so where do we draw the line?The point of BEVs is to eliminate carbon emissions. This will require renewable energy, but that is doable. With ICE, it will never happen.QuoteSorry, there are no cards, because there is no game.QuoteWe don't actually have to reduce our energy footprint, just the pollution it creates. It's not about "conscience". It's about doing something useful that is practical, NOW (or at least, soon).

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2022, 09:02:55 am
content: Quote from: pcprogrammer on August 22, 2022, 06:14:54 amI metered how much energy pre-heating my car uses. It's about 2.3kW for 20 minutes, or less than 1kWh. That's ~4 miles of driving.The alternative is a diesel/petrol car idling with a cold engine warming the cabin up whilst the owner scrapes off the window.Yes it's possibly more energy than driving a completely cold car but we are allowed some luxuries!edit: though driving a completely cold engine car may have other negative effects, most cars run open-loop when cold not knowing catalyst performance etc.

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2022, 09:15:15 am
content: Quote from: gnuarm on August 22, 2022, 08:44:54 amGo and check your history. The founders of America, came from Europe. Without this movements of Europeans across the globe who knows what the state of America would be today. Maybe a nice place with lots of nature not spoiled by greedy humans. Same story applies to Australia. Basically founded by the English.So by pissing on the UK so much, you are pissing on your ancestors

author: gnuarm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2022, 09:25:13 am
content: Quote from: tom66 on August 22, 2022, 08:58:24 amI hear you. As I tried to explain, I am trying to be sarcastic, really. I have much respect for the nation that fought Hitler in WWII, built the first real computer, and has made so many contributions to mankind. I'm trying to point out how opposite to the true UK nature this defeatist attitude is.QuoteI could drive from anywhere on the island to anywhere on the island and back on a single charge... but that doesn't make BEVs practical in Puerto Rico. There are almost no places to charge other than at home and there are very few BEVs. I do see a few Teslas from time to time.Quote100 km is pretty lame range, even for a city car. I don't know how many miles a day a taxi drives, well, km then, but 100 km is only 60 miles and that's not much for any sort of working vehicle, even if you charge at lunch. We'll see if it is successful.QuoteNot this one. I did think cell phones were a bit pointless (ok, one wrong) and even thought smart phones were not important until I got my Tesla and the Tesla app was important (ok, two wrong). But I havealwayswanted an electric car since day one! I watched Tesla for a couple of years and finally bought an X about the time the 3 was getting into production. It was sort of my retirement present for myself. Now I just need to retire.QuoteIs that true about NiCads? I thought they had high current output, which is why they were preferred over NiMH, which are dogs in power tools. I replaced alkalines in a model boat with NiCd and it took off like a scalded cat!QuoteI don't actually recommend for anyone to buy a BEV now. I say, don't buy anything other than a Tesla... and don't buy a Tesla. I think they will ripen a lot in a few more years. Not that they aren't useful in the meantime. I just think most people will not like the few inconveniences, which will be improved upon in short order. They have already increased the range significantly over the last five years. Give them five more and you will see 400 mile range for $30,000.My use case is actually pathological for my model X. I barely use the thing around home, then I drive 125 miles each way every two weeks. This is just under the range of the car now that it has some wear, so I always have to stop to charge, somewhere along the route, even if just for five minutes. I usually combine it with picking up some carry out. So win/win!I also charge on a 120V, 1.4 kW outlet. lol

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2022, 09:34:48 am
content: Quote from: gnuarm on August 22, 2022, 09:25:13 amIt's not a bad compromise tbh... Most of the taxis spend their time tootling around in city traffic where average speeds of 8 mph mean you're doing well. So they can easily run till lunch. The petrol engine then gets them any fares to the airport and back.But I think long term something like a 200mi / 300km all electric taxi will make the most sense. PHEVs are training wheels for real EVsAs for Ni-Cads, no doubt at all that a Li-Ion power tool battery will outperform on current output. My drill battery is fist sized and can do 30 amps without cutting out, at 18V. That's over 500W peak power. You are not getting that from Ni-Cads.

author: Miyuki
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2022, 10:15:41 am
content: Quote from: tom66 on August 22, 2022, 09:34:48 amLooking at the average value for Prague (a decent size city) average taxi (and all uber, bolt ...) are 180-220 km a working day

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2022, 12:29:25 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on August 22, 2022, 05:07:53 amNow consider I get 30-60% better fuel economy than those figures, at half the mileage or less, and have significantly less solar generation. Oh, and the insurance would probably triple, although I haven't checked on that. Someone will be along shortly to say I'd pay less tax, as if £20 a year matters.You'll forgive me for declining to go into debt to get a vehicle which will not pay back the loan any time soon.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2022, 12:45:28 pm
content: The insurance on my 204 hp Golf PHEV was less than my 90 hp Peugeot 206 HDi diesel.It turns out the insurance profile of EV and PHEV drivers (Tesla probably excepted) is "boring old guy who likes efficiency". There are few better categories as far as insurers are concerned.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2022, 12:50:58 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on August 22, 2022, 12:45:28 pmInteresting. I doubt it would be lower, but perhaps not as bad as feared. Doubt that'll last, mind.It could also be they have as low an opinion of the average Peugeot driver as I do..

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2022, 12:51:46 pm
content: Quote from: gnuarm on August 22, 2022, 08:44:54 amWell, I glad that you finally admit that you're limited by what you think you can do. Which clearly is sadly little given the lack of any concrete suggests you've managed to come up with for the problems people have described.QuoteI'm petty? You've been harping on dissing the UK for days now with no comeback from anyone and the first time you get a return shot across the bows using actual sarcasm you call it petty. Also you clearly don't know what sarcasm is, as that's very muchnotthe tool you've been using, just simple rudeness to deflect from when you can't muster an argument that has enough backbone to stand on its own. If Puerto Rico isn't a country but part of the US where are your seats in the US senate and congress? On yes you haven't got any, so you're not actually part of the US unlike Hawaii. You are just a US protectorate, one of the castoffs of the stillborn US empire, so to claim what the US has achieved as your own is just stolen valour.Now if you're not going to even try to add something useful to the discussion, just wave your hands and be rude to people, is there really any point in you continuing to participate in it?

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2022, 01:41:43 pm
content: Quote from: pcprogrammer on August 22, 2022, 06:14:54 amNevertheless, we do need to heat our environment, and in recent years it has even become necessary in the UK to cool it on occasion - the recent spells of record breaking 40ºC weather are witness to that. I've only had the car since March so I can't speak to its efficiency in heating, but the pre-conditioning system in cooling mode has used a maximum of 250Wh on the one occasion I used it for a whole 30 minutes. Mostly it uses much less - it usually only needs at most 10 minutes to get the car from "too hot to touch the seats or steering wheel" to "comfortable". That's impressively efficient.Personally I wouldn't have opted for air conditioning in a car, it's not something that I've ever specified when it comes as an optional extra, but it just came with the package. What I'm finding is that EVs, be they PHEV or BEV, are targeting a sector that iswayabove "basic transport". With a few minor exceptions, all the EVs being launched, marketed and sold at the moment range from relatively large to huge. It's a trend for the car market as a whole - you only have to look at the Mini and Fiat 500 models on sale, both ICE and electric, and compare them to the original models that held those names a few years back to see this. The mini has gone from around 600 kg in the original to around 1200 kg in the present form, the Cinquecento from a 499 kg original to around 1000 kg in present form.I have myself described a lot of the activity around EVs as "greenwashing" and while the trend for vehicles to get bigger and bigger year on year continues I don't really see that changing. I didn't have a lot of choice about replacing my 24 year old, lightweight, very efficient ICE car. Ironically two of the things driving those events were "green" levies being imposed on ICE vehicles in London. I was lucky and found a newish secondhand PHEV that was within what I was prepared to spend and since I've had it easily 80% of the mileage that I've done has been on electricity from plug-in charging. It's certainly less polluting locally, most likely more efficient and less polluting globally but yes, it's a much larger car than I would have chosen had I had a completely free choice, and had I been able to keep and operate the old car I suspect that, especially when taking embodied energy into account, the old car would have been less polluting to operate in absolute terms.Unlike the pronouncements fromsomeindividuals here we don't have a completely free choice in what we do. I was constrained by circumstances, budget, what was actually available and by local and national politics. I made what seems to me to have been the best compromise for the least ongoing environmental impact and that has had the side effect that I ended up with a luxury car, not out of explicit choice but simply because that's the way the dice fell as much as I could control them. So, in those circumstances Iamgoing to use the features that the car came with, not cut off my nose to spite my face, nor wear a hair shirt when I've got a perfectly serviceable Jermyn Street one to wear.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2022, 01:44:01 pm
content: About airconditioning in a car: Personally I consider it a safety feature. It has been scientifically proven the human brain doesn't work well at high temperatures.

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2022, 02:08:39 pm
content: @Cerebus, don't get me wrong, it was no personal attack on you. Just an observation on society in its whole.And you are right about that free choice is not always an option. More and more cities are implementing rules about what type of cars are allowed on the streets and what penalties you pay when you have the "wrong" one. Diesel cars are frowned upon quite heavily.Also by making parking more difficult your choice for owning a car gets limited.Our old car was 17 years old and the French government had a very good deal for us on trade in. As we have no income apart from some interest on savings we fall in a tax bracket that allowed a grant of 3000 euro back for our old car as long as it got scrapped. We did look into a more environmental friendly option, but the prices are to high. Now we have a ~2 year old Ford Fiesta with enough horse power to drive comfortably in the hills, which the old one lacked a bit, and it has a better fuel economy then the old one. ~5.5L/100Km. We drive maybe 8000Km per year, of which ~50% is from twice a year a trip to visit the parents in the Netherlands.To compensate a bit I switch of my internet every night. (Mostly because it saves money) This means 1 fiber to ethernet converter, 2 wireless routers in series (one controlled by my ISP) and a switch. Not a lot, but every bit helps.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2022, 02:09:42 pm
content: Absolutely, air conditioning is essential in any country that regularly exceeds 25C ambient IMO. To that end 10 minutes with the air con on from my car's remote control and I have no complaints about the all-black interior being roasting hot.

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2022, 02:10:22 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on August 22, 2022, 01:44:01 pmMany don't work that well at room temperature either

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2022, 02:18:17 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on August 22, 2022, 09:34:48 amThe latest version of the classic London "Black Cab", the TX5, has a 31 kWh battery, a petrol based range extender, a 64 mile range running purely electrically and a total range using the extender of 318 miles. It supports fast charging. Speaking to a London cabby a few months back he said that the pure electric range is enough for almost all his work, that taking an opportunistic charge while he has his lunch is generally enough to keep him from needing to use petrol at all.They aren't making pure ICE black cabs anymore, and the London Taxi Company, principle maker of black cabs for many years, has changed its name to the London Electric Vehicle Company. That a company and vehicle that's so iconic* that it's known around the world for its product has gone down this route I think speaks quite eloquently about the suitability of a relatively short range EV for the rôle of a taxi.People get hung up on range, but even the pathetic 7.1 kWh battery in my PHEV is enough to ensure that 80% of all my travel requirements are catered for by a pure electric vehicle. Sure, you need more range than that if you're driving a pure BEV but the average person doesn't need the full range of a typical fully fuelled ICE vehicle for anything other than the most exceptional journeys. Most car owners could live with a BEV with a range of 60 miles or so for pretty much all their day-to-day driving requirements, as long as they have somewhere to charge the bloody thing.* Let's face it, almost everybody in the world thinks 'taxi' when they see the silhouette of a TX series vehicle.

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2022, 02:26:53 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on August 22, 2022, 12:45:28 pmI went from "red two seater high performance mid engined sports car with negligible residual value and negligible theft risk" to "boring but expensive luxury PHEV with even more performance, considerably higher residual value and considerably more theft potential" and my insurance went down a little. So you're probably on the right track.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2022, 02:27:35 pm
content: And how about refilling the oil? Those taxis are Brittish made cars so they have to leak oil

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2022, 02:39:16 pm
content: Quote from: pcprogrammer on August 22, 2022, 02:08:39 pmNo, I didn't take it as such. I was just amplifying on what you said.QuoteI missed out on any scrappage grants here, and I thought that, like you, I was going to be forced into a newer, bigger, ICE vehicle. I was lucky in hitting the first wave of ex-lease PHEVs hitting the streets at sane prices and having enough spare cash that I could afford to think long term rather than just filling the gap with what I could immediately afford.QuoteI'm an old hippy and proud of it. I've been trying to minimise my environmental impact as much as I can while being compatible with living in the modern world my whole life. Have I made a difference? Maybe, maybe not, but at least I consciously try.

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2022, 02:42:29 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on August 22, 2022, 02:27:35 pmI think they have a separate oil tank, not actually connected to any working parts of the car, to take care of that. Got to keep up appearances, dontcha know? I think they also fit a crowbar circuit to occasionally blow the main headlight fuse to compensate for not having Lucas electrics fitted any more.

author: gnuarm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2022, 08:12:56 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on August 22, 2022, 09:34:48 amSorry, I missed that it is a hybrid. I don't have much enthusiasm for hybrids. They don't solve any problems, other than making ICE cheaper to run.QuoteThat's something people say that makes no sense to me. It's not an EV, it just uses a battery and electric motor to improve mileage. It doesn't have the same advantages or disadvantages.QuoteYou mean the density? Yeah, that's true. But I've never seen a battery power tool that lacked in power. I would still be using my NiCd Makita, but I'm not paying nearly as much for a new battery as I would for a new drill.

author: gnuarm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2022, 08:16:14 pm
content: Quote from: Miyuki on August 22, 2022, 10:15:41 amSo 150 km (90 miles) should handle a day's work with a top off at lunch. There are lots of BEVs that get that sort of range and would not be so high priced.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2022, 09:14:43 pm
content: Quote from: gnuarm on August 22, 2022, 08:12:56 pmI don't know if you actually understand what a PHEV *is*.The best way to think of a PHEV is like a battery-electric vehicle that can run on petrol when the battery is flat. That is why I say it is like training wheels. You get slowly more used to electric mobility. Working out how to schedule your charging times, finding public chargers, optimising efficiency for EV driving. That kind of thing. My PHEV offsets some 80% of emissions because the petrol engine *simply never runs for those miles*. When it is running on petrol, you get some efficiency benefits from being electrically-assisted, e.g. my car only has a 1.4L engine but is almost as fast as the comparable model with a 2.0L engine, which means less drag and higher load factors. But that's relatively minor compared to pure EV benefits.Quote from: gnuarm on August 22, 2022, 08:12:56 pmBoth energy and power density are improved, the drill can do more torque and it can supply that torque for longer before needing a battery charge.

author: gnuarm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2022, 09:32:53 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on August 22, 2022, 09:14:43 pmThat's the part that makes no sense to me. You don't need to undergo training wheels for a BEV. None of this is rocket science. Also, most PHEVs don't use level 3 charging, only level 1 and 2 which take time. People don't want to wait around for that, so not much use of public charging. They will mostly either just charge at home, or not charge at all and run off gasoline. This is why a PHEV is not at all like a BEV. It has many of the disadvantages of an ICE vehicle and few of the advantages of a BEV. It is it's own animal, which takes getting used to, in ways that are different from BEVs.QuoteOk, so from the school of if some is good, and more is better, then too much is just enough! That was my point. My Makita drill had all the power needed from NiCds. Lithium ions would not improve that since there is no need for unlimited power. It's a hand tool. At some point I can't hold onto it.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2022, 09:41:37 pm
content: Quote from: gnuarm on August 22, 2022, 09:32:53 pmWell, you live in a country that is just over 100km across, whereas I'm in a country where a holiday is easily 500-600km so I think perspectives vary. You do need to consider fast charging if you live in the UK. A PHEV eliminates that hassle. You can do shorter journeys, like your commute on electricity alone but longer trips require little or no planning, as long as you have petrol you can just... go.At the time I bought my PHEV the only other EV option in my price range was the BMW i3 94Ah which had roughly 100 mile all electric range. I would not have made much impact to my overall electric usage (maybe gone from 80% to 100% electric) but had the inconvenience of a short range EV with slow fast charging (~38kW max for the i3) making road tripping a pain. Keep in mind we own a single car, so we don't have the option to own a short range EV and a diesel car or something like some families do.Now, today, there are many better options, if you can buy them, like the VW ID.3 which have 100kW+ fast charging and 300km+ range so the 'hassle' factor drops to close to zero if you have home charging.I would argue that anyone buying a brand new PHEV (with a few limited exceptions) is making a mistake but used PHEVs are bloody good bargains.

author: sokoloff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2022, 09:46:55 pm
content: Quote from: gnuarm on August 22, 2022, 09:32:53 pmThat seems to be majorly discounting the flexibility that the PHEV offers. If you're in a situation where charging is easy and convenient and you're driving the typical short amount per day, it gives you a lot of the benefits of the BEV. If you're in a situation where charging isn't easy or where you have a particularly long day of driving, it's still able to accomplish that without any fuss or inconvenience relative to a normal ICE car.It allows someone to buy a PHEV, expecting to own it 7-10 years, without knowing in advance their exact parking/charging/garaging situation.Flexibility has value, especially in this case. Our daily drivers right now are a BEV and an ICE. When it comes time to replace the ICE, we're almost surely going to replace it with a used PHEV, for the flexibility reasons listed above.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2022, 10:25:17 pm
content: Agreed. Having a charging plug on a hybrid makes a lot of sense.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2022, 10:49:26 pm
content: Quote from: sokoloff on August 22, 2022, 09:46:55 pmSame here. I don't understand how combining the features of a BEV and ICE/hybrid into a long-range PHEV make it somehow worse than a separate BEV and ICE.

author: gnuarm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2022, 11:09:04 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on August 22, 2022, 09:41:37 pmYou don't know me. I live in many places. My BEV is, at this moment, in the parking lot at BWI near Baltimore, MD. I live in a country that is 3,000 miles wide as much as an island, which is NOT a country, but is 100 miles long. As soon as I land in Maryland, I will have to drive 125 miles back to my place in Virginia and a few days later drive 125 miles to Lynchburg where they are assembling my product for shipment, then back. Then a few days later, 125 miles back to the airport.So you know nothing of my "perspective".You also don't understand a word I wrote.QuoteYou are free to buy what you wish. The comments you are responding to, and rather inappropriately, were about how PHEVs are NOT "bridge" vehicles or "training wheels" for BEVs in any way. I don't think I've ever said what anyone should or should not buy. I'm only pointing out that PHEVs are not a useful component of our transition to BEVs. They are orthogonal to the matter.

author: gnuarm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2022, 11:12:25 pm
content: Quote from: sokoloff on August 22, 2022, 09:46:55 pmI'm unclear about your post. I have said nothing disparaging of the value of driving a PHEV. I'm simply pointing out that they are completely unrelated to the process of converting to BEVs. The two are not related.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2022, 11:25:56 pm
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on August 22, 2022, 10:49:26 pmThe battery pack will be extra weight you drag around making the ICE more inefficient. IMHO having a PHEV with relatively large batteries makes most sense if a significant part of what you are driving can be done using the batteries AND if you have a cheap source for charging. Otherwise it is not worth having the larger batteries. If you care about cost then it certainly is good to fill in a spreadsheet to calculate optimal TCO.

author: sokoloff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2022, 11:38:07 pm
content: Quote from: gnuarm on August 22, 2022, 11:12:25 pmIn order for EVs to be bought, they have to be considered. In order for them to be considered, they have to have awareness.I know many people who now have a BEV as a result of them or a friend having bought a PHEV (Volts in this case) and realizing “hey, that plug-in thing is pretty cool!”I can’t help but see that chain of human awareness to consideration to purchase as being part of the adoption path from pure ICE to BEVs.

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2022, 11:39:58 pm
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on August 22, 2022, 10:49:26 pmWell, if you're thinking like an engineer then the combination allows you to take advantage of the best qualities of both, at the cost of some increased complexity. Of course if you've caught religion, then you'll battle for your corner while disparaging the other corner and burn any heretics who think there might be a middle ground between the two. It doesn't matter whether the religion in question is mainstream "Petrolhead" or mainstream "BEV" or a small spinoff sect like Tesla drivers, they all hate heretics.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2022, 12:01:33 am
content: Quote from: gnuarm on August 22, 2022, 11:12:25 pmAnd we're pointing out that you are simply completely wrong on that matter and you've made no credible arguments to support your opinion. If I drive to work and back in a PHEV and the commute is entirely within it's EV range (the ICE never starts), how does that differ driving a BEV on the same trip?

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2022, 12:08:46 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on August 22, 2022, 11:25:56 pmI think that the ability to recapture braking energy will outweigh any weight concerns in almost all but the most extreme corner cases, even compared to a smaller battery. (small batteries have limited regen absorption capability) PHEVs are typically a bit on the expensive side, so I won't make any cost arguments, but in my view the ideal use case is when your daily driving can be done with all or mostly battery power and the ICE is reserved for longer trips. There are quite a few Chevy Volt owners that have been doing this for years and many of them get by with very low gasoline usage. There are quite a few PHEVs now with 25-40 mile EV ranges.

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2022, 12:32:23 am
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on August 23, 2022, 12:08:46 amOn that note I was quite surprised by my PHEV when I took a trip to the coast from London recently. Used up pretty much all the battery capacity getting out of the East End and onto the main roads (Dual carriageway and motorway) and the petrol engine kicks in. Stuck it into Eco mode, which takes advantage of coasting to minimise fuel use and regen on any downhill runs to charge the battery (and uses satnav data to plan it all to boot). Came off the motorway some 60 odd miles later and the battery was back at over 95% capacity. Watching the gauges on some of the downhill sections of motorway I could see it charging at over 20 kW for several minutes on several occasions while still maintaining 60-70 mph - I was quite taken aback. The strangest thing was watching the "estimated combined range remaining" gauge continuously climbing on the whole outbound journey as it both recalculated based on motorway driving versus the city driving it had been doing for a few days previously and on the fact that it was actively recharging itself from regeneration. Got about 80 mpg on the way out (Full fat British gallons, not US gallonettes).Edit: On a seperate note, I've used 2 litres of petrol since 27th July, covering 127 miles of purely local city driving which shows quite how often my PHEV finds itself operating effectively as a BEV.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2022, 01:31:10 am
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on August 23, 2022, 12:08:46 amWell, I was reacting to 'long range PHEVs'. In my mind you start to get into ranges around 160miles (say 100km to 200km) which would require a much larger battery pack. Ofcourse with cheaper / high energy per weight batteries in the future, the equation changes but we aren't there yet. Feature creep is the enemy of any good product.

author: gnuarm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2022, 02:11:07 am
content: Quote from: sokoloff on August 22, 2022, 11:38:07 pmInteresting concept, but what makes you think there are and will continue to be more PHEVs than BEVs? I believe the same process will be triggered by neighbors seeing new BEVs in driveways, but much moreso.I can't see someone buying a PHEV, actually having much impact on the sales of BEVs when the two are so different. You don't put gas in a BEV... at all.Besides, at this point, you would be hard pressed to find someone who is not aware of BEVs.PHEVs are not useful to promotion of BEVs and mostly won't hinder it since they are so different. Bottom line is, BEVs are happening, and there's not much that will have any real impact on it. So lead, follow, or get out of the way!

author: gnuarm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2022, 02:15:30 am
content: Quote from: Cerebus on August 22, 2022, 11:39:58 pmSo the "best" qualities include higher pollution of ICE, higher fuel costs of ICE, the regular maintenance of ICE, and the highest complication of any of the three.Hybrids were an idea from 20 years ago before BEVs were practical. BEVs are a much better solution today and will continue to improve over the next 20 years at least. There is so little down side to BEVs that it's a slam dunk! What downsides they have, will be highly mitigated over the next few years as every automaker produces millions. Well, every automaker who plans to stay in business.

author: gnuarm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2022, 02:17:25 am
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on August 23, 2022, 12:01:33 amThat's not the issue. You driving a PHEV does nothing to impact the adoption of BEVs. Isn't that what I said?How do you think your driving a PHEV is impacting the adoption of BEVs?

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2022, 07:49:51 am
content: I wouldn't have considered a BEV if I hadn't driven a PHEV beforehand. Sorry, you're just wrong about this. I frequent a UK focused EV forum and every poster I've seen who has traded in their PHEV has *either* got a BEV or a newer PHEV, but the majority are getting BEVs. It's clearly working. Once you drive electric, you never want to go back.And as for public charging, I make use of 3kW public chargers all the time. Go to the supermarket, 45 minutes shopping and the car has gained all the range it used for the drive there. OK it's "nothing" on the grand scale of things (6-7 miles added range) but it changes your view of how you use a vehicle. And the supermarket doesn't charge for electricity so it makes it a very cheap drive indeed.@nctnico: plugs on hybrids only make sense if the battery is a usable capacity IMO. So a 1.6kWh Prius battery is not really worth charging, especially because the car can only use about 800Wh of that.

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2022, 12:49:06 pm
content: Quote from: gnuarm on August 23, 2022, 02:15:30 amThere's little point arguing with a religious zealot. You pick what suits your belief system and quietly ignore the rest. Your reply is no different to a petrol zealot answering with "So the 'best' qualities include running out of battery and waiting ages to charge it".

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2022, 02:38:46 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on August 23, 2022, 07:49:51 amYeah, that 1.6 KWh battery is also there to drive the engine in a more efficient way, not just breaking.I've been thinking about replacing my Prius with a PHEV, because I could cover the daily commute with electricity. Too bad this government doesn't think anymore that PHEVs should be supported, instead they add extra tax because of the extra weight, and no matter how I calculate, it wouldn't make financial sense.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2022, 02:49:46 pm
content: The biggest problem with PHEVs is they are impossible to tax and incentivise correctly, at least if you still have regular petrol hybrids.The UK government gave people incentives to get PHEVs about 10 years ago and a great deal of these were bought but never charged - it became a bit of a scandal. Thing is, company car drivers were able to expense all of their miles when evidenced with petrol receipts, but home charging was only permitted at 4p/mile, which meant if you didn't have an off-peak tariff and a smart meter, you'd lose money. Even if you did have an off-peak tariff you were still incentivised to use petrol because the whole cost was guaranteed to be covered so the numerically illiterate would never worry.This was known for years and indeed certain vehicles like the Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV became known as "Taxlanders" as these cars were just being used as inefficient petrol SUVs.I know my car was used in this way: prior owner was a leasing company, leased to someone in Salisbury, UK. The car had used its charging port a total of 25 times, despite being driven over 45,000 miles before I acquired it. So it was pretty much all petrol usage for that time. In one sense, really good for the battery lifespan, to sit at 30% all the time...The secondary issue is if you have low/zero air pollution zones how can you really allow PHEVs into that - there is no way to know externally if the car is running electric or petrol.In that sense BEVs are far better because it's *impossible to use them inefficiently*, within reason.

author: sokoloff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2022, 03:09:20 pm
content: 4p/mile for electric seems like just plain bad policy all around. Tires alone are probably close to 2p/mile.It seems to me like "the simplest thing that could possibly work" would have been way better here. Give whatever per-mile rate is decided to be "close enough" for everyone and then let owners optimize for their own costs however they see fit. Aligns incentives.For Zero emission zones, fine and ticket vehicles discovered to be running their engines in those zones. It doesn't have to be 100.000% perfect to be workable.

author: gnuarm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2022, 04:36:28 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on August 23, 2022, 07:49:51 amYes, I should have checked and found you are the authoritative source on such information. The million or so Tesla owners in the US who have never owned anything other than an ICE must all be mistaken.QuoteYour logic is failing you. Please consult any book on logic to see why.QuoteYou can learn many things, from many events including talking to BEV owners. That doesn't make a PHEV a "bridge" to BEVs. They are different animals and are not much like owning a BEV.

author: gnuarm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2022, 04:39:07 pm
content: Quote from: Cerebus on August 23, 2022, 12:49:06 pmWhen the facts can no longer be argued, some resort to ad hominem.Ok.

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2022, 07:04:56 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on August 23, 2022, 02:49:46 pmThe latest version of the BMW 330e has geofencing built in, it will automatically switch to electric inside a geofenced "green zone". I don't know how it handles an "out of charge" situation inside or approaching a geofenced zone.

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2022, 07:12:02 pm
content: Quote from: gnuarm on August 23, 2022, 04:39:07 pmWhen the facts are being ignored one knows one is either talking to someone with a fixed religious-like belief system, a troll, or an idiot. At that point you can't ignore thefactsabout thepersonwho is failing to follow the argument/discussion and just being rude, sarcastic* or dismissive of anyone and anything that disagrees with them.* Congratulations by the way, you actually kind of managed some proper sarcasm today rather than merely being rude and dismissive.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2022, 09:08:41 am
content: Quote from: tom66 on August 23, 2022, 02:49:46 pmThat's the exact right wording of the problem.Like Germany. People were buying these as company cars, and never plugging it to the wall. Why? Because you still got a petrol card, that allowed you to buy petrol to the company's expense, but you couldn't get the same benefit for electricity. It's just bad policy.I could use a PHEV maybe 90% in electric mode, yet I'm to be taxed almost as an ICE. And this is happening in the 21 century, where it would take a very minimal effort to be able to send telemetry data to the tax office (let's just ignore the data protection aspects of this). So we are not switching to a superior tech, due to policies.And yes, the infamous Outlander. I think most of those were exported from here when the incentives ran out. Talk about being in the right place at the right time.

author: Miyuki
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2022, 10:44:57 am
content: All this tax-free BEV is BSI know it is meant to support its adoptionBut it has no logical reason, it uses the same roads and presents that same danger to the public (it is still 2 ton metal box on wheels)But with the current BEV position on the market when it is in Luxury or at least the top of the menuIt is just a support for the wealthy portion of the populationAnd with wider adoption, they will have to increase taxes anyway because there will be only a few ICE to tax and governments need this huge tax revenue

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2022, 11:13:20 am
content: Quote from: Miyuki on August 24, 2022, 10:44:57 amUnfortunately it seems that the only way governments seem to know how to try and discourage or encourage things these days is either with money (grants or taxes) or criminalisation. Gone are the days when they tried to inform or mould public opinion with things like educational films/adverts. In particular relation to roads related things, in my youth you'd see short road safety films on the state broadcaster (BBC) all the time, in recent years all you get is the semi-annual anti-drink driving campaign in the run up to Christmas, and perhaps once every few years you'll see a road safety advert but they are few and far between.The UK Highway Code rules changed back in January. Back in the past such a thing would have been attended with lots of publicity to inform the public, on this occasion there was none, zip, nada. The only reason I knew about them was I follow a driving instructor on You Tube (Ashley Neal) who does educational road safety videos and it was his content that drew my attention to the changes. The government made no effort at all, which means that currently UK drivers are driving to two sets of rules depending on whether they've learned about the new rules or not. I can't prove it, but I suspect that this failure is down to my first suggestion, namely that there's no way to use money or criminalisation to incentivise adoption of the new rules so they didn't really know how to do it.

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2022, 11:20:19 am
content: About the new rules, the public will learn when they violate them. And that brings money into the treasury. Win win for the governmentBut in all seriousness it is indeed bad times that this kind of information is not widely spread. I guess television time has become to expensive.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2022, 11:42:45 am
content: Quote from: pcprogrammer on August 24, 2022, 11:20:19 amWho is watching TV anyway nowadays? I read news online and watch series / films online.

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2022, 11:50:03 am
content: Quote from: tszaboo on August 24, 2022, 09:08:41 amI'm sure that company car taxation rules in the UK had a very similar effect. A few years back the UK government introduced a significant reduction in the "benefit in kind" taxation on company cars that were plug-in that led to two models in particular becoming hugely popular as company cars: the BMW 330e and the Lexus RX 450h (plus the infamous Outlander/Taxlander). The people specifying these were, I suspect, in the most part simply looking to reduce their tax liabilities. I'm sure that some were making a genuine "green" choice, but most were simply looking to their pockets and only had a few experimental charges of the battery.The good news from this is that a glut of them appeared on the post-leasing market at around the same time leading to relatively affordable hybrids becoming available to people who couldn't afford (or didn't want to pay) full ticket prices for a PHEV or BEV. I was one such person and got a BMW 330e in very good condition for a very good price (Not my first choice of style of car at all, I'm a 2 seater convertible kind of guy at heart, my only reason for choosing it was the opportunity to get a plug-in at all). It's notable that the charge cable that plugs into a normal domestic socket that came with mine had little apparent wear when I got the car, it looks much tattier now that I've used it every few days for the last 5 months.Unfortunately the same bout of tax incentives didn't inject a lot of post-lease BEVs into the market at affordable prices. Despite what some commentators here have said I'm sure that is because many people who were in a position to specify a BEV as a company car were deterred by anxieties over reliable charging. It certainly wasn't a cost issue - the BMW 330e PHEV that I picked up would, with its options, have carried around a £40,000 price tag new off the forecourt - easily enough for those company car specifiers to buy a BEV rather than a PHEV.Also because of the way the company car market has changed in the UK company cars have gravitated towards the premium/luxury end of the market with most cars that aren't strict essentials going to higher paid executives (30 years ago when I was an middle ranking employee my job attracted a company car as a perk, nowadays the same job wouldn't). Sadly what that meant for PHEVs/BEVs coming off lease was there were negligible numbers in the medium-sized or small car sector so there was no impact in that market segment that most needs affordable second hand PHEVs/BEVs to be hitting the roads.So yes, the usual story with government meddling of unintended outcomes. At least in the case of the UK gov's failures it putsomesecond hand PHEVs and maybe a small handful of BEVs onto the market at prices that private buyers who couldn't afford a new PHEV/BEV could contemplate.

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2022, 11:52:16 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on August 24, 2022, 11:42:45 amPeople with ziggo (if they still exist) or whatever internet/tv accounts and watch TV online. We have satellite (CanalDigitaal) and the wife watches the news almost daily. (Besides read a lot of the news online)But then there is the channel the British government could have used to bring the changes to the greater public. Or push them onto every mobile phone to create awareness. All sorts of possibilities I would say.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2022, 12:08:19 pm
content: Quote from: Cerebus on August 24, 2022, 11:50:03 amIn all fairness; the Dutch government has similar incentives and they seem to work OK but that is mainly due to the fact that the Netherlands is a very densily populated country so it is not extremely expensive to have a country wide charging infrastructure. Still, a lot (about 1/3) of BEVs supported by tax incentives are being exported because there is no demand for them on the second market.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2022, 12:17:57 pm
content: I do think the 0-2% BIK on company BEVs will do wonders for the post-leasing used market, but aside from Tesla, there were very few competitive EVs available until about 2019 or so. The first of those (ID.3, iPace, Polestar 2, newer Leaf, maybe e-208/Corsa-e) will be coming to the end of their lease this year and next. Unfortunately right in the middle of a shortage of new cars, so the leasing companies will make bank and we'll have to wait another year or two for the prices to drop.My Golf GTE cost half as much at 3 years old as it did new, and now coming on for 6.5 years old, I can buy a similar model for just £1k less, the used car market (especially for anything electric, hybrid or not) is insane right now.

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2022, 12:23:16 pm
content: Quote from: pcprogrammer on August 24, 2022, 11:20:19 amI'll digress for a bit and explain the rôle of the UK Highway Code, and you'll see that particular, understandably cynical, view of the situation doesn't actually pan out. The Highway Code has, currently, 310 "rules". Some of them have the force of law and those laws could attract penalties if broken e.g. you must stop at a red traffic light. Those rules use the the wordMUSTin bold capitals to mark them out. Many of the rules are codified common sense: Rule 304 - "Look out for pedestrians, especially children, running to catch a tram approaching a stop.", and the rest mostly tell road users what to expect from each other often accompanied by the wording "you should". Those rules don't have the force of law but disregarding them may be used in court to adduce evidence of offences such as careless or dangerous driving.The new changes are all in the "you should" category. Remember, these are the rules that you won't be automatically prosecuted if you'er seen 'breaking' them. The ones that have the most impact are surrounding where and when you should give way to pedestrians or cyclists, affording them more priority than in previous versions of the rules. In particular part of the new rule H2 says "At a junction you should give way to pedestrians crossing or waiting to cross a road into which or from which you are turning.". Previous custom and practice was that if a vehicle wanted to turn into a side road and pedestrians were waiting to cross, the vehicle would go first and then the pedestrians would cross afterward. Under the new rule in the same circumstances you should stop and wait to turn into the road and let the pedestrians cross. Perfectly sensible, perfectly reasonable, easy to learn to do. I now do that. As a consequence I frequently get drivers behind me who don't realise why I've stopped, honk a horn for me to get moving, and all because they don't know about the new rules and assume I'm a dullard, not a conscientious driver.Also the pedestrians don't know the new rules, and often don't cross the road when a vehicle has stopped for them, leading to vehicles working to the new rules stopping to give way, waiting for pedestrians who don't move, and eventually driving off again with the pedestrians still standing there. Or possibly waiting, and then starting to move as the pedestrians also finally decide to move.The lack of publicity for the new rules has, rather than made pedestrians safer, put them at more risk, increased congestion, and set the seeds for some road rage incidents with uninformed drivers. Good intention - "make pedestrians safer", unintended outcomes - as outlined above. I can only describe it as "pathetic incompetence".

author: gnuarm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2022, 03:30:20 am
content: Quote from: Miyuki on August 24, 2022, 10:44:57 amWhat does that mean, "tax-free BEV"? I pay plenty of tax on my BEV.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 06, 2022, 11:41:16 pm
content: Quote from: gnuarm on August 25, 2022, 03:30:20 amA lot of countries, and states within countries, have low tax or no tax incentives to buy EV's. They might even give cash grants. You know, all this net-zero stuff.Similar with solar which is why uptake exploded here in Australia when the subsidies and feed-in tarrifs were announced.

author: gnuarm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 10, 2022, 04:49:35 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on September 06, 2022, 11:41:16 pmI don't know what countries they would be. Do you? Can you name any?I bought my BEV in 2018 and had to pay $2,000 to the county. The state had a BEV only tax of $150 or so when I registered it. Not every state has a special BEV tax, but many do. I know of none that let you out of the taxes you pay on other, personal vehicles.There are incentives that are provided through the federal and state taxes, typically. That's not the same as "tax free". It's a one time incentive.I agree the incentives are no longer needed. The US incentives had a cap of 200k cars per company. I'm ok with leaving that in place, but there's no point in giving GM or Tesla further incentives. The point was to help companies over the hump. Tesla is well over the hump at this point, don't you think?I think we can still do well with incentives for residential solar. But it won't mean much if you can't sell it to the utility. Some states had laws about net use metering, but after some years repealed it leaving solar owners high and dry. If they built more capacity than they can use during the day, with the expectation it would be useful to the utility, it is wasted to the owner now they are getting NOTHING in return. Many have just shut off feeding the grid.My house in Virginia is SW facing, so perfect for solar. I won't be installing anything until there are some regulations in place that control what happens. My utility won't allow ToU to be combined with selling power to the grid. It would mean I might be paid more than I use, not because of the kWh, but because the peak rates are 10x the off peak rates! I don't have to generate much electricity to recover my costs at those numbers.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 10, 2022, 04:57:46 pm
content: Quote from: gnuarm on September 10, 2022, 04:49:35 pmProbably the best well-known example is Norway. Their polices have led to massive EV adoption even in an Arctic climate.https://elbil.no/english/norwegian-ev-policy/

author: gnuarm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 11, 2022, 08:20:47 am
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on September 10, 2022, 04:57:46 pmI see some exclusions from taxes paid when buying a BEV, which would be like the incentives we have here, a one time thing to lower the effective cost of the car. VAT is 25%!!! WowMany of the ongoing exclusions have run out, like the road tax. Tolls and ferry fees are now half rather than free.So Norway is not so much different from the US. They have purchase incentives and some minor ongoing savings on tolls, but charge a road tax.

author: Miyuki
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 12, 2022, 06:21:23 am
content: Quote from: gnuarm on September 11, 2022, 08:20:47 amAlmost all EU countries have some form of lowered taxes and/or direct incentivesAnd 0% VAT is considered to be EU wideFree or cheaper highways (this makes no sense)Free or cheaper city entry and parking make sensePlus of course making new ICE taxes, to make look EV "cheaper"

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 12, 2022, 08:36:06 am
content: Isn't it still the case that with taxes something like a Volkswagen Passat is nearly as expensive as a Model 3, in Norway. I seem to recall that "factoid" floating about, not sure if it's true or not.