Singapore tops global education rankings - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Homer J Simpson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 29, 2016, 04:06:09 pm
content: http://www.bbc.com/news/education-38131731Top 5SingaporeSouth KoreaTaiwanHong KongJapan

author: Fsck
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 29, 2016, 07:28:33 pm
content: I visited Singapore with my parents when I was young and we stayed with some of my parents' friends. Those friends had two kids, one about the same age as me and one several years younger than me. (primary school, so <=gradeTheir school system is pretty (insanely) intense in comparison to the Canadian system. You're talking about several (I saw them do 3-4) hours of work each night in addition to school. Extra workbooks, those after-school cram schools.I did close to zilch at that age after school.It's pretty similar in Hong Kong. Those kids are pushed crazily hard.

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 29, 2016, 07:45:08 pm
content: Quote from: Homer J Simpson on November 29, 2016, 04:06:09 pmUSA/Euro students has to get better. We in the USA are doing awful. As our scores get lower, we fool ourselves with a redesigned test to hide the decline.The redesigned SAT (rSAT) is about 70 points easier that the OldSAT. There was challenges to my statement when I made it a couple of months back in another reply. Back then, I got it verbally that rSAT about 60 points easier, but being verbal I could not cite examples. Now I can cite a specific:University of South Carolina website:"For example, if the average SAT of the entering freshman class is roughly1210 on the SAT, we expect that the average for a class with similar characteristics to post arSAT average close to 1280."https://www.sc.edu/about/offices_and_divisions/undergraduate_admissions/requirements/for_freshmen/redesigned_sat/(Screen print also attached since rSAT replaced oldSAT March 2016. The linked page will likely be gone after this cycle as freshmans with OldSAT scores will mostly be gone after this cycle.)I hope the PISA test will continue to be independent. The same Common Core folks that redesigned down the SAT wants to work with PISA to realign their tests. With clear rejection of Common Core in the USA (besides 11 of 50 states passed law to reject it, opponents of Common Core won the Presidential election), it is getting more likely that PISA will remain as it was. None the less, it will likely be noted by the outgoing administration that "SAT score got better under their administration..."First thing about fixing a flaw is admitting that we have a flaw. So we must admit that our high school students are not as good in their fundamentals. It is true that "perhaps we are more creative." But without having fundamentals to anchor that creativity, that creativity is worthless.High school is where one learns the fundamentals. It is high time we stop fooling ourselves that we are more creative therefore our engineers are better... Wake up, smell the poop so we know we need to clean up and get serious about doing it.

author: vodka
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 29, 2016, 09:11:46 pm
content: Quote from: Fsck on November 29, 2016, 07:28:33 pmBut clairly but this is not explotation childhood, now that the childreen that work for helping their families that is a sacrilege.I only see that these rankings don't serve for nothing , simply it serves for struts. So on theory, Singapore would be the power of world as Japan or China, but the really they aren't on the top 20 , apart that only have 23% industria and the rest Service ,so here something fail.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 30, 2016, 01:08:24 am
content: First of all, Singapore has a population of 5 million and Japan has a population of 127 million.Japan has a GDP of $39k per capita and Singapore has a GDP of $55k per capita (US is about $53k) so it seems to me that Singapore does very well, thank you!I lived and worked in Singapore back in the late '80s and their education system impressed me quite a bit. I was blessed to work with some of the best educated engineers I have ever known. They didn't necessarily have direct experience building a semiconductor plant (at the time) but they were really smart!The are 3 forks to their educational system. If a student is gifted and makes it into Raffles Institute, they will probably wind up as high level managers or politicians. If they attend the National University, they will probably turn up as engineers or scientists; good ones! If they attend the Polytechnic they will probably be highly qualified technicians - just look at their Robotics Team. Those folks know the material.When I would hit McDonald's in the afternoon, I would often see a couple of dozen young students sitting quietly at the back tables working on homework. No rough-housing, no screaming and hollering - just diligent study. They know that if they don't get the grades, they won't get into the University and life will be much less rewarding later on. They take education seriously in Singapore. It is an obsession. I admire the system, I admire the results but it does put a lot of stress on the kids. Sometimes that doesn't work out so well.I have nothing but good things to say about Singapore. Their society, their legal system, their work ethic and the people themselves. I had the best time of my life working over there.

author: GK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 30, 2016, 10:29:57 am
content: Meanwhile Australia continues to sink towards the bottom:http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-11-30/australia-declines-in-global-education-report/8077474A really intelligent comment from our Education minister:"I don't want to denigrate Kazakhstan, or indeed their artistic skills with movies like Borat," Senator Birmingham said.

author: GK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 30, 2016, 11:11:38 am
content: Quote from: rstofer on November 30, 2016, 01:08:24 amYeah, their totalitarian government in particular is just awesomehttps://www.hrw.org/world-report/2016/country-chapters/singaporeI was there for a week as a ten year old and even at that age I had enough insight to find the universal servility of just about everyone in the hospitality industry and the public service beyond natural and as creepy as fuck. Though it is a great holiday destination, particularly for westerners who find it delightful to be treated so well as visitors. There is much to be said for the firm hold of the authorities on the strict maintenance of public morality too. We stayed at the family-friendlyHoliday Inn, though every evening upon returning to our apartment there was a new room-service business card for the establishments unofficial prostitution, err private massage service, discretely slipped under the door. Though I'm sure that in such a libertarian society the girls employed to fondle foreign wieners are adequately recognized under some relevant workplace act awarding them generous remuneration and fair working conditions. It would be hypocritically and oppressively turning a blind eye for profit otherwise, and that surely can't be so!

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 30, 2016, 04:49:10 pm
content: Quote from: GK on November 30, 2016, 11:11:38 amThey do have a centrally managed society but they also have a near-zero crime rate. Just ask the US brats that got caned for graffiti:http://www.nytimes.com/1994/06/27/us/teen-ager-caned-in-singapore-tells-of-the-blood-and-the-scars.htmlAnd the Germans:http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2015/3/5/two-germans-to-be-caned-jailed-for-singapore-train-graffiti.htmlIn actuality, they have the same Parliamentary system that seems to be left behind wherever the British ruled. Oh, and voting is mandatory! Compare that to the turnout in the US...Yet for all the rhetoric about their 'totalitarian' government, which it is not, I was never 'stopped and frisked' - ever! In fact, I never had any interaction with Law Enforcement at all.Traveling through Changi Airport was a breeze even with all my dive gear. They would look at my passport and green card and I was on my way.I needed an International Driver License so I went to the Police Station, showed them my California DL and they issued my license. I had never driven on the wrong side of the street in my life but, no problem, here's your license!I could walk the streets day or night and never have a concern about crime. There simply wasn't any! I sure can't do that around here! We have multiple assaults and robberies every single day in my town. Fourty six murders in a town of just 300k, year to date!It's true, I couldn't bring my guns when I moved to Singapore but the water is warm so I took up SCUBA diving. I made 13 trips to Malaysia, spent a week diving on a sailboat off Phuket (Similan Islands), Thailand and another week in the Maldives - 103 dives that year. Here's the deal for weekend dive trips out of Malaysia: The trip, including boat, air and a spot on the beach for a tent - $25. If you drive up and carry another diver, they paid $25 (trip is now free) and the 2d additional diver covered the gas. Basically, the trip was free. But that's not all! The American School provided the food (their chef dove with us) and the Australian and New Zealand embassies provided the wine. Kind of a competition between the countries, I guess. Pup tent on the beach, warm water, friendly people, plenty of food and drink, what's not to like?$6/night for a cheap motel on the beach at Phuket, Thailand. Lobster was cheaper than ice!And, no, I never saw any evidence of prostitution. There was a red light district for the simple reason that Singapore is a huge sea port. I suspect the area may have expanded now that the US Navy hangs out there. But, wherever it was, I never ran across it. Did I mention that the women in Singapore are flat out gorgeous? And smart!To the point re: education. In the US, we have a class of people who will never get an education. Nobody in their family tree has ever had an education and they don't want to be the first. Unfortunately, this applies to a huge segment of the population and tends to do two things: It drags down the overall score for the country and, more important, their presence in school tends to be disruptive to the education of those who want to learn. We need a way to separate the groups other than by way of private schools. OTOH, we may not test well but all of the magic is invented here! We import a lot of talent but we grow quite a bit as well.

author: tronde
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 01, 2016, 02:17:47 am
content: Before you spend too much time discussing the results of TIMMS and next week's PISA you should spend a lot of time educating yourself about what these tests actually are. The journalists don't bother as long as they get some headlines and the politicians cherry-picks as best they can, so you have to do the hard work yourself.Why do we test?How is the test conducted, and how many pupils are tested?In what way can differences in culture and language affect the test?What is tested, and what is not tested (and why)?What can we learn from the results, and what do they not tell us?How is the final points calculated, and what is the uncertainty?++++++It's a lot of info about both TIMMS and PISA available. Spend some time and gain more knowledge about them. They are too important than just to be some funny headlines in the news, and education deserves better than politicians acting in panic.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 01, 2016, 06:36:17 am
content: Quote from: tronde on December 01, 2016, 02:17:47 amNone of these issues matter when the US is ranked so far down the list. We ought to be ashamed of ourselves. If we were in the top two or three, we might look into subtleties but we're nowhere close.The date was October 4th, 1957, the day when Russia launched Sputnik. I was in elementary school (6th grade) when, all of a sudden, education in math and science took on a whole new priority. The US simply had to catch up. No more screwing around, the US needed engineers and scientists and they needed them right now! We spent a lot more time at the blackboard doing arithmetic. Suddenly, the fun and games were over. The space program came around and on July 21st, 1969, we walked on the Moon! Twelve years from nothing to creating man's greatest achievement. Six flights and 12 astronauts have walked on the Moon and we haven't done anything since... What, ISS? Interesting, but hardly the impact of the Apollo flights.We have drifted away from education. There are a lot of reasons, the topic has been discussed endlessly in the newspapers. Everybody has a well reasoned explanation but we still fail! We just can't seem to get going in the right direction. Is it 'touchy-feely', everybody needs to feel good about themselves? Is it the inability of the teachers to present the material? Arw unions protecting incompetent teachers? Are the students disinterested simply because we aren't afraid of Russia any more? We should be... Lots of other countries get their people educated but not the US.I don't pretend to have any of the answers. There is some debate about whether I even understand the questions. But, head to head with other countries, the US is failing!

author: GK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 01, 2016, 12:06:32 pm
content: Quote from: rstofer on November 30, 2016, 04:49:10 pmComparisons with the USA or elsewhere are irrelevant. You deliberately ignore the basic civil liberties and political freedoms denied to the population of Singapore and then bang on about all of the wonderful things as if the two realms are mutually exclusive. The Singaporean authorities actively prosecute/detain/fine/imprison people who publicly criticize the government. That alone is something for which you can think of nothing bad to say?This brief article I think neatly outlines what is obviously bunk with your type of selectively/willfully blind "utopia" romanticism:http://www.theonlinecitizen.com/2015/03/27/singapore-is-not-an-autocracy-but-were-not-free-either/But yes, there are nice things in Singapore. The breakfast buffet at theHoliday Innwas incredible.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 01, 2016, 03:35:51 pm
content: Quote from: GK on December 01, 2016, 12:06:32 pmThe article is long-winded but not entirely wrong. The question is, does it matter? Singapore has a Sedition Act, so does the US. Singapore can prosecute LGBT but doesn't. In many US states, the LGBT life style is still not settled law. Singapore doesn't round up the transgender folks that hang out at the Marina. And that was 30 years ago, long before LGBT became acceptable in the US.In Singapore, riots are not allowed. Somehow people in the US feel that the First Amendment covers looting and burning. Free speech and free Nikes! What's not to love!Am I free? Well, as long as I don't want to walk down the street in my US town, day or night. If I do, I'm talking an inordinate risk. No problem walking the streets of Singapore. So who'e free? What does free even mean? Free to do whatever I want? Like in anarchy? Or free to behave within a framework? So the question really is, "How large is the framework?".How can the author deny the 'gun culture' of the US? 100 million citizens own 300 million guns. It may not be culture but it darn sure is guns.Singapore has been an independent country for a mere 51 years (just 23 when I was there). In my view, they're in better shape than the US and we've been independent for 240 years.Let's not forget the ever popular US Patriot Act which basically tossed the Bill Of Rights. Boy, those were the days! Way back when I had individual rights... Yup, tacked right onto the back of the Constitution, a whole list of them. No warrantless search or seizure except for the newly popular 'asset forfeiture' which allows LE to steal property when a crime isn't even charged. They get to keep the proceeds! Get caught with a few thousand in cash, see what happens. See how you like 'stop and frisk' - an obvious violation of several articles of the Bill of Rights. Being detained along the side of the road until LE can get a drug dog on scene to sniff your car. They can't search but a dog can sniff.Is Singapore perfect? Probably not. But the US isn't doing so well either. I'm in no hurry to criticize a system that works for the people involved. I can tell you with certainty, the US system isn't a model to emulate.

author: tronde
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 01, 2016, 05:22:47 pm
content: Quote from: rstofer on December 01, 2016, 06:36:17 amWhen you say so, you ignore both science and knowledge. That is rather funny since you complain about poor education in your country...If you don't know the answer to those questions I listed, the test result will tell you absolutely nothing useful except that you are not the aboslute winner or looser of a competition you don't know what you competed about.

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 01, 2016, 11:22:50 pm
content: Quote from: GK on December 01, 2016, 12:06:32 pmre: "...Comparisons with the USA or elsewhere are irrelevant. You deliberately ignore the basic civil liberties and political freedoms denied to the population of Singapore..."I suppose you are trying to say, USA is freer than Singapore, so it make up for the poorer education?Education and liberty are two different things. One can be educated and not free (such as, Unabomber Ted Kaczynski), locked up in jail - but that doesn't take away from the fact that Unabomber is highly educated.Beside, we in the USA are rather limited in our ability to criticize government. A couple of reminders:- Remember the rodeo clown who wore an Obama face mask and got persecuted? Wearing face mask of Presidents is a tradition until this President.http://www.cbsnews.com/news/missouri-fair-bans-rodeo-clown-wearing-obama-mask/- Remember Dr. Ben Carson (2013 National Prayer Breakfast) speaking out on the danger of political correctness and made some remarks about Obamacare? Whitehouse called twice asking him to apologize. After his refusal to apologize, here comes the tax auditors.http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/10/03/dr-ben-carson-says-irs-targeted-him-for-his-anti-obama-comments.html- Now if you still think we are not mouth-locked by political correctness, try to make some black/white jokes on the week of Martin Luther King holiday at work. See if you don't get send packing within minutes.Besides being mouth-locked with political correctness, we are also highly restricted lacking many basic freedom - you can't even have an open air barbecue in many places. Just in yesterday's paper, new federal regulation coming into effect next year to make government owned housing projects "smoke free", you can't light a cigarette in your home.http://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/30/nyregion/us-will-ban-smoking-in-public-housing-nationwide.htmlEven business environment is highly restrictive. 2015 was a record breaking year with over 80,000 pages of regulation, and we are set to have a new record for 2016. This year we are at over 90,000 pages and 4000 new regulations are waiting in the wings.http://thehill.com/regulation/administration/264456-2015-was-record-year-for-federal-regulation-group-sayshttp://www.wsj.com/articles/the-all-time-regulation-record-1470435716According to2016 Index of Economic FreedomfromHeritage Foundation:#1 (most freedom). Hong Kong#2. Singapore#3. New Zealand#11. USAhttp://www.heritage.org/index/rankingSo, comparing USA with Singapore by claiming we "made up the lack of education" by having more basic freedom is rather unfair and inaccurate.

author: GK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2016, 12:08:51 am
content: Quote from: Rick Law on December 01, 2016, 11:22:50 pmWhat? I said nothing about education standards in the USA one way or the other.

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2016, 12:21:07 am
content: Quote from: 3roomlab on December 01, 2016, 11:37:32 pmFrankly, I think in the USA the student should learn to deal with more stress. Recent election disappointment sendcollegestudents to- cry room (Yale Univ)- play dough (play-doh) to help cope (Univ Michigan Law School)- therapy dogs (Cornell University)- coloring book (Univ Michigan)The list is endless. Come now, a university student, playing with coloring book because of a disappointing election result? I sure hate to have someone like that working for me. What do I say to the guy who locked himself in the bathroom to cry - after he got back from the McDonald that ran out of french fries.According to payscale.com 2016-2017salary potentialfor bachelor degree:#2 - Massachusetts Institute of Technology - mid career $134,000#6 - US Military Academy (West Point) - mid career $126,000#7 - US Naval Academy (Annapolis) - mid career $125,000#8 - US Air Force Academy (USAFA) - mid career $124,000#10 - Havard Univserisyt - mid career $123,000All three military academies are in the top 10 list. I think apart from obvious factors like academics, their student's ability to deal with stress and cope with adversity has something to do with their superb performance.(The salary listed ismid-careerbut it is not the only judgement factor. For how they rank, go to their site:)https://www.payscale.com/college-salary-report/bachelors

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2016, 12:41:09 am
content: Quote from: GK on December 02, 2016, 12:08:51 amMy point still stand however. Singapore is rated 2nd most free per the Index of Economic Freedom list I cited.So, to say that they lack "basic civil liberties and political freedoms" when they are second only to Hong Kong is probably a big stretch. If they are freer than most (except Hong Kong) economically, they have a lot of freedom right there.

author: GK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2016, 12:44:03 am
content: Quote from: rstofer on December 01, 2016, 03:35:51 pmThe article is reasonably brief and for the most part to the point, which I think has whooshed right over your head.

author: GK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2016, 12:59:53 am
content: Quote from: Rick Law on December 02, 2016, 12:41:09 amWTF? Singapore is an amazingly successful business/financial hub, no question. That does not translate to an equal measure of political and civil freedom! In terms of political freedom/press independence and civil liberties Singapore ranks woefully low:https://freedomhouse.org/report/freedom-world/2016/singaporehttps://www.hrw.org/world-report/2016/country-chapters/singapore

author: Faith
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 02, 2016, 05:31:11 am
content: Since I am actually from Singapore, I guess I'll chime in.Yes, our education system is good at topping rankings, and yes, the average Singaporean is definitely better educated compared to the average individual from most other nations.But you know the saying; the devil is in the details.Singapore certainly has a healthly population of individuals who are book smart, but that does not necessarily translate into them being street smart.Many Singaporeans leave our education system with a wealth of knowledge acquired through years of textbook memorization.But what if a problem beyond the realms of textbooks, a realm which many have become dependant on, needs to be solved? What if a step out of the box needs to be taken? Ah ha.I consistently see Singaporeans fresh out of university requesting top-dollar salaries as a pat on their own back for their acadamic achievements who fail to succeed in the corporate world.Even the best education can fail to produce a competent workforce if the education in question isn't preparing students to meet the expectations of the real world.Sometimes it's not about giving the right answer, but it's about giving the answer your boss or client wants. Again, it's not always about being book smart, but also about being street smart.I've always loved this essay for bringing across this point rather well:https://aeon.co/essays/you-don-t-have-to-be-stupid-to-work-here-but-it-helpsFurthermore; the competitiveness of our education system has resulted in stories of sabotage emerging.I have heard from both teachers and students of peers intentionally stealing notes, destroying exam necessities (such as calculators), ruining group projects, and so on.And you really do have to ask yourself; is this how you want to groom your population? Where backstabbing becomes the norm in order to satisfy and stimulate one's self-interests and desires?So what happens when such an environment becomes the norm? Well:http://www.todayonline.com/singapore/singapore-workers-unhappiest-southeast-asia-surveyIt isn't always ideal to blame students for such behaviour, either. Stress really does become a big problem within such a competitive environment coupled with the high demands of many parents.And with stress comes inevitable stories such as this one, from a month or two ago:http://www.tnp.sg/news/singapore-news/pri-5-boy-falls-death-after-failing-exams-first-timeYou know just how skewed priorites are when a boy commits suicide and the mother cries at his corpse saying these exact words:"I only asked for 70 marks, I don't expect you to get 80 marks."There is also a problem of our education system not catering to those who do not fit perfectly into it.I don't really know how to explain this well. But our education system is extremely structured with little allowance for deviation from said structure.Thus if you fail to cope, or if your pace isn't equal to that of your peers, chances are you will fail, and when you do fail, your opportunities rapidly diminish.I knew one friend who absoluted flopped under the pressure of our education system in Singapore; but when he moved to the US, he excelled and went on to work for Google as an engineer.And speaking of engineers, it is actually incredibly ironic how this discussion is actually appearing on an engineering forum.Because you should really ask the average Electronics Engineer (or even Electrical Engineer) how well their career is going in Singapore.I'll let this post do the talking, and it isn't even unique:https://www.reddit.com/r/singapore/comments/57rjtx/my_dad_has_been_jobless_for_nearly_5_years_i_dontSo yeah. We at Singapore love to be number one. We love to top charts, we love to top rankings, and we love to boast about said achievements.But at what cost?Oh, and except for this one that everyone seems to forget about:https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2127rank.htmlYou know, because it's not at all important or anything.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2016, 03:46:27 pm
content: Quote from: Faith on December 02, 2016, 05:31:11 amMy experience when working with Singapore NUS engineering graduates was that they knew more formulas and had better book skills than me. Sure, I had a pretty decent education but nothing with the rigor of the Singaporeans. My job was to transfer specific knowledge/experience to the engineers who would ultimately be responsible for the plant. It was pretty easy work because the folks we hired were SMART!The biggest hurdle is something you alluded to: Thinking out of the box isn't encouraged. That's a shame because it is the way to the very best results. "If you want what you always got, do what you always did!". There were many conversations about "You can't do it that way over here!". Somehow, it always worked out!I spent all of my time with a young woman who was a nurse at Mount Elizabeth Hospital. Several times a year, it seemed, there were social gatherings to get all the single nurses and all the single young men together in an attempt to solve the 'not getting married - ever!' problem. Smart women don't tend to be highly regarded. This is particularly true when the women really are the smartest people in the room. We had several on staff. Very smart!Yes, the rankings are not all that important but when the US is near the bottom, it's embarrassing. We are the only country to put a man on the Moon, something we did 47 years ago, and yet we don't rank well when compared to other countries. Embarrassing! We spend over 1 TRILLION dollars per year for education. That's over $3000 for every man, woman and child in the country! We are not getting our money's worth!http://www.usgovernmentspending.com/year_spending_2017USbn_18bs2n_20#usgs302

author: tronde
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2016, 05:23:48 pm
content: West vs Asia education rankings are misleading.For developed nations, there is scant evidence that TIMSS rankingscorrelate with measures of prosperity or future success. The sameholds for a similar test, the Program for International Student Achievement (PISA).[…] An analysis of 23 countries found a significant negative relationship between2009 PISA scores and ranking on the Global Entrepreneurship Monitor'smeasure of perceived entrepreneurial capabilities(MacGregor Campbell, New Scientist Magazine 07.01.2013).More reading about the same:https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg21728985-800-west-vs-asia-education-rankings-are-misleading/Remember, this is not the same as to say the western results are OK. It's about what do we test, why do we test and what can we learn from the test results. You do really need to inform yourself about the tests before you conclude about anything.

author: tronde
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2016, 05:41:54 pm
content: Quote from: rstofer on December 02, 2016, 03:46:27 pmNo, US is not near the bottom. The US is performing about the same as most other developed countries. You can discuss whether it's as good or poor as the rest (is the glass half full or half empty?), but it is not bottom.You really have to learm more about the testing and how they calculate the numbrrs they present. This test was the TIMMS, but they use the same statistical methods as for the upcoming PISA. Svend Kreiner, a Danish professor in statistics made some calculations that showed that Denmark could be both number 42 as well as number 2 in one PISA test. Needless to say, he met some opposition from PISA.I have not read his book, but this is the reference to it:Kreiner, S og Bang Christensen, K.B. (2013). Analyses of model fit and robustness.A new look at the PISA scaling model underlying ranking of countries according toreading literacy, Psychometrika.

author: snarkysparky
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2016, 06:23:16 pm
content: We don't need a bunch of smart people in the US. There are too many jobs that must be filled where knowledge would be an impediment.One old timer told me his job required a strong back and a weak mind.We in America have decided it's cheaper to have other countries develop our technology and what is more better than profit??

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2016, 07:00:50 pm
content: Quote from: tronde on December 02, 2016, 05:41:54 pmThat "US is at the bottom" is probably a side-effect of the past decade US news/press tends to report the top 30 only. UK for example, tends to report top 100. So, with 30 in the list, at 25 or 29, we do look near the bottom.Statistics is statistics, you can also re-cut the data to see whatever you want to see. So I agree that the ranking could be misleading. However, it cannot be an excuse to hold back frequent self-reassessments. Whether #2 or #42, an honest assessment of "how are we competing in the real-world" should be done and done frequently.Real-world data doesn't look good for the USA. The conclusion/impression of USA being in the bottom is strengthen each time we see high-school kids who can't manage the change for $1.47 out of a $20.00 bill at the grocery store.Our "STEM" college graduates are having problem finding jobs. Many of them are doing jobs barely requiring high school. This is from US Department of Commerce, US Census Bureau (I added the bold):"The U.S. Census Bureau reported today that74 percentof those who have a bachelor's degree in science, technology, engineering and math — commonly referred to asSTEM — are not employed in STEM occupations. "http://www.census.gov/newsroom/press-releases/2014/cb14-130.htmlAll the while, we are told our unemployment rate is declining and the same data say those not working are increasing... So, it is very clear things are not as it should be. Our kids are not making it.Quote from: rstofer on December 02, 2016, 03:46:27 pmFrom personal experience (ie: not statistically significant), I did ran into more 1st generation immigrants from both Singapore (PISA#2) and Hong Kong (PISA#1) who can't "think out of the box" as compared to non-immigrant kids. They also tend to be less out-going and more risk-averse.But, I did see these same attributes from "locally grown" kids as well.Some statistics would be very interesting to see.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2016, 07:14:37 pm
content: Quote from: Rick Law on December 02, 2016, 07:00:50 pmI don't know how meaningful those figures are. Anyone serious about a job above technician grade in science or engineering needs a masters these days. Most smart people leaving college at the batchelor level aren't really interested in a career in science or engineering. This has changed. A generation ago a batchelor's degree was the entry point for most technical work.

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2016, 07:27:56 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on December 02, 2016, 07:14:37 pm"...Anyone serious about a job above technician grade in science or engineering needs a masters these days..."But we are saying the largely same thing. Being a bachelor's degree holder is not as good as it was.A BS from MIT was getting noticed whereas a BS from an average state university is being snuffed at. One can draw the conclusion that academically-average kids today is not as valuable as academically-average kids of a 20 years ago.

author: tronde
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2016, 07:44:55 pm
content: Quote from: Rick Law on December 02, 2016, 07:00:50 pmI do really agree that it makes sense to know your status. The problem is how do we get that information? Education is a big pond. A lot of people fish in that pond. Some want to understand (researchers), some want to prove that they are right and the other wrong (politicians and policy makers) and some have found a nice new way to make money (look up "Pearson and PISA").I too feel that we are heading in the wrong direction. The problem is how we can get reliable information and knowledge? If we just test, and don't consider the strengts and weaknesses of the test we will probably never find the answer. We know that the politicians act in panic, and the only thing that matters is to be among the top.It is one thing that is important to know about both TIMMS and PISA: The result of the test does not in any way affect the future of the pupil being tested. The test is anonymous, the result for any given indiidual is not known, and neither the pupil nor the school gets any feedback. We know for sure that a lot of pupils (at least in Europe) deliberately underperform because of this.Given the differences in culture between the asian countries that are believed to be more likely to follow instructions from authorities and the western culture that is not as likely to follow them this important to consider.I believe, but don't know, that the gap between east and west is a lot smaller than the test results indicates. This is not the same as we are good enough. This is more that the top four are less unique and probably not as good as we believe.This is a rather easy to understand description of PISA from Ireland.http://files.nesc.ie/nesc_secretariat_papers/No_2_pisa_report.pdf

author: mtdoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2016, 07:47:13 pm
content: The overarching trend of declining education, health care, job quality, etc in the US is part of a bigger problem of an empire in decline IMHO. We've been holding up a facade of "exceptionalism" for the past 40 years but the underlying problems have been seeping through the cracks in that facade and becoming more and more visible.Quote from: Rick Law on December 02, 2016, 07:00:50 pmYep.Quote from: Rick Law on December 02, 2016, 07:00:50 pmThis has been an observation since at least the 1980s when I first was involved in academia. US students have not performed as well as Asian country students on standardized achievement tests for some time, yet somehow advances in science -i.e. new discoveries - have come disproportionately from the US and other Western societies. In the 1980s it was all about Japan and how their education system was putting out graduates who performed better on tests - Yet their scientific community seemed to only excel at replicating and refining other's results, not producing a proportional amount of truly original research. The conclusion of some who have looked at this anomaly has been that it reflects a cultural difference - that is the difference between a society that places value in conformity versus one where rebellion and "outside of the box" thinking is more valued. The corresponding differences in other creative endeavors (music, etc) are also of note. We see the same trends now in engineering as well don't we?

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2016, 08:46:40 pm
content: Quote from: tronde on December 02, 2016, 07:44:55 pmre: "how we can get reliable information and knowledge?"This is where the world is an unfair world. With a kid in school, both me and my wife do a lot of research. A kid without education-focused parent would probably be at a disadvantage.I learned what are the "reliable" sources. Many "reliable sources" will have their own biases but I learned to mentally filter the noise out while get to the music. Much good information can be obtained by combining sources, but then of course I am collecting info and making decisions with the full load of my own biases.re: "TIMMS and PISA: The result of the test does not in any way affect the future of the pupil being tested"It may not affect individuals directly but it will affect the nation or region which will end up affecting the individual indirectly. A company selecting a facility location will not select a place where an educated work force is hard to get.

author: tronde
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2016, 11:16:35 pm
content: Quote from: Rick Law on December 02, 2016, 08:46:40 pmIts OK that you or me or any other induviduals can find "reliable sources". But - what about when your politicians cherry-pick results as they find them suitable totheiragenda? Is that OK? The mix of education and politics is more like advanced mud wrestling than science, so don't expect them to have your best in mind.The problem with the fact that the test does not affect the pupils directlyisa real problem because the test result will be more or less flawed. Do you think a 12 year old boy tired of school bother much about the nations best 10 years ahead? I have a lot of experience with 16 - 19 year old boys tired of school, and I can tell you they don't give shit about it.These tests are considered important by most governments, and they use them to change the educational system. Sometimes they panic, and make changes every three year when a new test is published.The real problem is not that the US or UK or Norway or any country is not on the top. The real problem is that almost all developed nations are performing equally poor (or good if you are an optimist). And as I said; I do really believe the gap between east and west is smaller than we can read from the results.The big question for me is how this can happen when we have a lot of different school systems and lot of different cultures but still almost the same performance. What kind of changes to a given school system will prove much better than any other in this environment?

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 03, 2016, 07:27:18 am
content: Quote from: tronde on December 02, 2016, 11:16:35 pmWith a TRILLION dollars up for grabs in the US alone, you can certainly expect politicians, unions, teachers and everybody else in the process trying to get a large piece of the pie.QuoteYou are right about the kids not performing for the tests. On one test, the entire grade level boycotted the test (whatever it was). The test wasn't mandatory, it didn't affect their graduation/promotion so they just decided to boycott the process. I'm just cynical enough to suspect there was a little guidance in that decision.There is concern that the US is over-testing. Teachers teach the test (because they are graded on their student's performance) and little else. That may be ok if the material on the test is correctly chosen. There has been a lot of printer's ink spilled by newspapers reporting anecdotes related to testing. Like the problem where the teacher was dinged because little Sally didn't improve year over year because she maxed the test the first time. Sometimes the stories are so outrageous you just know they are real!

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 03, 2016, 09:42:31 am
content: Well, the dept of Education is celebrating this test.http://mybroadband.co.za/news/government/189948-anc-government-celebrates-finishing-last-in-maths-and-science-study.html

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 03, 2016, 05:29:39 pm
content: Quote from: SeanB on December 03, 2016, 09:42:31 amYou just have to love statistical statements like "most improved". It's pretty easy to show improvement if you start from the very bottom.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 04, 2016, 01:23:46 pm
content: Sadly they have been digging for a while.........