Does the use of an IC capable, but not implemented, of HDMI require a license? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / projects

author: magicmastja
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 27, 2023, 09:34:22 am
content: Pretty much what the title says. Im knee-deep in designing a from scratch vehicle car stereo/infotainment board. I plan on doing an initial prototype for personal use for a few months, and then if it performs well rolling that design into a lowvolume side business product line for sale. Problem is being only a hobbyist by far the best chips that I can find that are both actively stocked and have the perfect combo of features at reasonable prices are NXPs IMX8 chips. The one snag is im not going to be able get LVDS and MIPI DSI without also getting saddled with a chip capable of HDMI. If I absolutely don't use the HDMI functionality in anyway, no traces, no drivers, do I still have to buy a license to be able to sell a product that cant use HDMI out of the box unless significantly modified?

author: Ian.M
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 27, 2023, 09:59:10 am
content: IANAL, but if a MCU/SOC is capable of HDMI, then its also capable of DVI-D on the same pins, which does *NOT* require a HDMI licence, provided *YOU* don't supply any means of connecting a HDMI cable, use higher HDMI only resolutions or output audio packets.

author: magicmastja
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 27, 2023, 10:17:21 am
content: Ah gotcha thanks for the reply. For me the initial design is looking to use LVDS reserved for a small video only display in vehicle, and im looking at MIPI DSI to Displayport bridge ICs at the moment for video only connection of a PC monitor just for initial setup and troubleshooting, expected to be 1080p res. Audio will have its own whole discrete subsystem never to be entangled with video signals

author: fchk
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 27, 2023, 11:55:30 am
content: Quote from: magicmastja on January 27, 2023, 09:34:22 amYou might have a look at the NVidia Jetson modules: Xavier NX or Nano (Orin Nx and Orin Nano starting in March/April). These modules provide HDMI or Displayport, and the Xavier NX and Nano also have DSI. For me it seems as NVidia has licensed HDMI just like H.264 and H.265. Nowhere in their documentation is a note that the user needs a separate license.The modules contain everything critical (CPU, RAM, EMCC, PMIC), so you have many problems already solved for you.For an internal display eDP seems to be the easiest way. I'm not sure if the iPad3/iPad4 displays are still available:https://datasheetspdf.com/datasheet/LP097QX1-SPC1.htmlfchk

author: langwadt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 27, 2023, 01:42:53 pm
content: Quote from: Ian.M on January 27, 2023, 09:59:10 amI don't see how using a HDMI cable or connector would require a license as long as you don't use HDMI owned standards or HDMI brandingHDMI cables/connectors can be used for DVI or just for random highspeed differential signals

author: berke
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 27, 2023, 05:05:15 pm
content: Quote from: magicmastja on January 27, 2023, 09:34:22 amHDMI is a private thing and they typically try to enforce their gatekeeping bullshit through trademarks and logos. If you don't say HDMI anywhere and don't use their logo, copyright/trademark law doesn't enter into it and they have no leverage, IMHO even if you had a working HDMI port, which you don't. Whether NXP included some HDMI cores on their silicon is their business, if you can buy their chips without signing something with them there is nothing binding you to the HDMI trade association and I don't see why you would concern yourself with licensing from them. But then IANAL either and every country has its own weird laws. For example in North Korea it looks like you have to have Kim Il Sung's portait as high as possible in your home.If you're going to sell your product to consumers there are other things to worry about such as EMI compliance, ROHS, consumer protection (warranty etc.) or recycling.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 27, 2023, 08:32:42 pm
content: Quote from: langwadt on January 27, 2023, 01:42:53 pmThe issue is the encryption/decryption keys for the HDCP copy protection that is, IIRC, mandatory in HDMI. (It’s optional in DVI.) That and agreeing contractually to not undermine the copy protection in practice, for example by providing an unencrypted output, or an unencrypted digital media path in a PC, allowing memory copying.I assume that the contract terms for HDMI receivers are much more onerous than for transmitters.

author: magicmastja
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 27, 2023, 08:56:17 pm
content: Thanks ill give those Nvidia modules another look over. The main appeal of the NXP processors was 1. availability (the number of design changes ive had to make due to supply shortages is irritating) 2. Containing a solid mix vehicle communication interfacing (on-chip CAN controller), on chip DSP for audio processing, and then just general decent compute performance for running a lightweight Linux OS with some sort of opensource Android Auto friendly GUI (ie OpenAuto Pro). Most of the non-CPU related hardware is focused on high quality audio performance, the video functionality just needs that "good enough" rating for system setup and Google Maps lol.

author: BrianHG
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2023, 11:42:54 am
content: You only really need to worry about if you are playing with HDCP video encryption.If you just use or buy an IC HDMI transmitter, you are ok.If you make a product with said IC to transmit HDMI, so long as you do not use the HDMI logo or state it is 'HDMI x.x compliant', you are ok.To get the right to use the HDMI logo and the right to say you are compliant with one of it's standards, you must pay and get your hardware tested to the hill before you are allowed to do so.If you had to ask this much, HDCP is in a completely different league, stay away... If anyone offers you an IC which says it can encrypt / decrypt HDCP, do not waste your time.

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2023, 01:42:25 pm
content: You never have to buy any license for an IC you can buy and use, regardless of what features you use or don't use, including HDMI.The whole point is the IC manufacturer bought the required rights to use relevant intellectual properties when they designed the chip.Using logos and names under a trademark is different. So instead of "We don't support (insert HDMI logo here)" say "We don't support the most common audio/video interface".So you can even use the HDMI features no problem. Not using them - even less of a problem.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2023, 01:46:05 pm
content: No, not necessarily. The That depends entirely on the licensing terms.

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2023, 03:03:10 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on January 28, 2023, 01:46:05 pmIf you buy ICs from say Digikey, you are not signing any contract or license.The fact that OP isaskingmeans there is no license. If there was, it would have been process so complex and expensive they would definitely know.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2023, 09:21:25 pm
content: Quote from: Siwastaja on January 28, 2023, 03:03:10 pmWait till you try to get the dev tools or even the complete datasheet...

author: bson
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 29, 2023, 09:15:21 pm
content: No worries about HDMI as long as you don't use their connectors or use their methods to transport audio. Both of those are covered by the Forum's patent pool and neither can be sold without a license. For personal use, or a small number of prototypes you can do anything you want. Of course, you can't use their trademark logos either. Both pool licenses and trademark rights are premeditated on joining the Forum and subjecting products to their tests. But you don't need to be a forum member to tinker as much as you want, and if you want to go to market then the annual $15k is a pittance (at least in the U.S., in other parts of the world it may well be a small fortune). That'll just kind of disappear among all the other legal expenses, not the least of which is protecting your own IP and trademarks.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2023, 09:51:27 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on January 27, 2023, 08:32:42 pmIt's funny that they still care about this. IIRC the master key was leaked many years ago and HDCP has been thoroughly broken. I have a <$20 HDMI splitter I bought from Amazon that also happens to strip HDCP.

author: langwadt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2023, 11:49:56 pm
content: Quote from: bson on January 29, 2023, 09:15:21 pmSurely you can use HDMI connectors for anything you want, the only thing they can complain about is if you are using the HDMI trademarkif you want to implement actual HDMI there might be patents on some things, but since HDMI is 20 years old ...

author: langwadt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2023, 11:52:56 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on January 29, 2023, 09:51:27 pmHDMI Licensing, LLC wants to try an keep their business going?

author: jonpaul
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 30, 2023, 01:43:50 am
content: A personal use or few prptos will not be found.Make 10000s and advertise/sell online, you can be responsible to pay license, TM or (c) fees.Notice that HDMI media and PHY mai implement DRMDefeat of DRM may violate the US DCMA law.Logo, (c) >>TM>>USPTODifferent issues.Jon