Oscilloscope Feature Wars - Agilent Options - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: nowlan
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2014, 12:54:27 pm
content: MOD: I've split this into a new topic from the Agilent Hack threadHave you guys seen this yet?http://www.home.agilent.com/agilent/editorial.jspx?cc=US&lc=eng&ckey=2428917&nid=-53827.3925750.00&id=2428917&cmpid=fbultscpFor a limited time, we are offering you an incredible investment protection opportunity with the new Upgrade to your Ultimate Scope program. Whether you are a loyal Agilent X-Series customer, or looking to purchase your first Agilent oscilloscope, starting April 1, 2014 you can take advantage of a new oscilloscope application bundle that will enable ALL software applications (including DVM and AWG) on your InfiniiVision X-Series oscilloscope, for the price of one option!Through March 31, 2014 you can also ‘Supercharge Your Bandwidth’ with the oscilloscope promotion for all InfiniiVision X-Series oscilloscopes that offers the next higher bandwidth model for the same price.http://www.home.agilent.com/agilent/editorial.jspx?cc=AU&lc=eng&ckey=2430287&nid=-53827.3925750.00&id=2430287Upgrade to your Ultimate ScopeStarting April 1, 2014, you can turn on all software applications on an Agilent InfiniiVision X-Series oscilloscope for the price of a single option! Just purchase a single promotional product license, and have all software applications enabled instantly. This is available to both existing Agilent InfiniiVision X-Series oscilloscope customers as well as new scope purchasers.2000 X-Series$500 USDDSOX2AUTODSOX2COMPDSOX2EMBDDSOX2MASKDSOX2MEMUPDSOX2SGMDSOX2WAVEGENDSOXDVMDSOXEDK3000 X-Series$800 USDDSOX3ADVMATHDSOX3AERODSOX3AUDIODSOX3AUTODSOX3COMPDSOX3EMBDDSOX3FLEXDSOX3MASKDSOX3MEMUPDSOX3PWRDSOX3SGMDSOX3VIDDSOX3WAVEGENDSOXDVMDSOXEDK

author: grego
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2014, 01:47:37 pm
content: Wow. I am so getting that.What it tells me though is they have a new scope coming out soon and want to squeeze the last bit of revenue out of the 2000 and 3000 scope.

author: taemun
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2014, 01:49:39 pm
content: @grego:Either that or this thread has been read by someone at Agilent. Considering that the Power application by itself was around double the all-app pack, it's a fairly big turnaround.

author: Carrington
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2014, 04:03:08 pm
content: Quote from: grego on February 15, 2014, 01:47:37 pmI don't know why, but I've had the same feeling.

author: kilobyte
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2014, 07:17:03 pm
content: I hope this announcement was not an 1 april jokeBut i think this announcement is a marketing strategy by Agilent.http://www.agilent.com/about/newsroom/presrel/2014/11feb-em14028.htmlIf you look at the leaked Information to the comming new Tek Scopes / already available Tek 2000-4000 series the are very similar to the Agilent 2000-4000 series.So with this offer you will get a software bundle of round about 11000$ for only 800$. So that could be a reason to buy an Agilent scope.If I had not already got one, I would now buy the DSOX3034A for the price of DSOX3024A

author: ben_r_
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2014, 10:17:20 pm
content: Yea definitely a marketing strategy. A new scope is probably on its way out. That being said I have already bought about $400 worth of software upgrades and have three of those listed there. Unless they wanted to give me credit for what I have already spent Ill just be getting the rest of the upgrades via the hack. I will call them on April 1st though and see if I can get them to give me the credit and let me just pay the difference. That would be sweet and Id definitely do that.

author: MarkL
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 15, 2014, 11:07:01 pm
content: Quote from: grego on February 15, 2014, 01:47:37 pmPlus, there hasn't been a SW release for 8 months. Seems Agilent's development focus is elsewhere now.I feel pretty stupid for buying $5k worth of licenses for a X3104. So much for any legitimate resale value. Thanks, Agilent.

author: ben_r_
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2014, 11:35:03 pm
content: Quote from: MarkL on February 15, 2014, 11:07:01 pmWOW. Yea that would hurt. Im a little angry I spent anything knowing that I could have waited and hacked it and gotten it all for free. Thats why software unlocks have always been worthless and a waste of money. They are never worth anything in the end and usually, if the product is at all popular, someone figures out how to mod/hack it to get it all for free further reducing the value.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2014, 11:43:14 pm
content: I doubt they have a new scope as such. If there really was an all-new scope, why would they offer a bargain-basement license package - this would only make any new model harder to sell to existing users.My guess is any new scope will the old one but with more/all licenses enabled, to piss all over any new offering from Tek on features, and also make them more competitive with Rigol.Think about what new features a new model might have - apart from the decodes I can't really think of much you could usefully add.My 10+year old MSO6034A does pretty much everything the MSOX3000 does (apart from AWG), in some ways better.What is really left to do in the midrange scope world, other than including decodes as standard?

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2014, 11:46:32 pm
content: Quote from: MarkL on February 15, 2014, 11:07:01 pmIs there actually anything left to fix/do on these scopes?

author: ben_r_
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2014, 12:02:20 am
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on February 15, 2014, 11:43:14 pmI keep applying the same logic and asking people the same question with respect to cell phones, but then like clock work, one year rolls past and there is the next, upgraded with the only things they can really upgrade due to normal technology constraints: better camera, faster processor, and more memory. Doesnt matter that my smartphone from FIVE years ago was screamingly fast enough, but it still seems to be enough to get the people lining up to buy. These days it doesnt matter WHAT else they add, just THAT they add or change or upgrade or update or change the looks of SOMETHING and its a new model and a reason to "upgrade" your old one.

author: Lukas
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2014, 12:09:02 am
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on February 15, 2014, 11:43:14 pmMore Memory! Fast memory (DDR3) has become so cheap these days, I'm waiting to see a medium-performance scope with 1GSa of Memory...Slightly ot: Take a look at the big iron scopes:http://www.home.agilent.com/en/pd-1820590-pn-DSOX93204A/infiniium-high-performance-oscilloscope-33-ghz?nid=-33821.931871&cc=US&lc=engThey offer a memory upgrade to 1G/ch (4G total) for 40000$ ... but that's just a software option, even the base model has all memory builtin. According to free_electron they're using GDDR5, so the cost of the memory is negligible in relation to the frontend, ADC, etc. Customers still seem to think that they're using some special kind of memory, otherwise I cannot explain why anyone would pay 40000 for just a bit of GDDR5...

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2014, 12:18:08 am
content: I'd disagree with both these last points.Cellphone and testgear markets are totally different. Latter is driven by fashion and sells in such numbers that dev costs are recouped quickly.Test gear addresses specific requirements, and has a much longer payback time due to much lower sales volumes.What do most people really need in a scope that isn't already well covered?Memory - although more is always better, above a few mpts it's very much a case of diminishing returns outside of a few niche applications.Bandwidth - how many people need high bandwidths but can't afford a higher end scope? probing becomes a limiting factor as well.Decodes, segmented memory - yes absolutely, and I think the time has come for these to become a standard feature, not an option.DVM is a gimmick, AWG is nice but more of a bolt-on than a fundamental scope feature.Again, look what has changed over 10+ years between 5/67000 series and X2/3/4 series. Actually very little, apart from lower cost in real terms.

author: RRobot
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2014, 12:33:08 am
content: One feature would be a actual large hi-res screen. I've got a MSOX3054a and a MSOx7034a and the 3000 series definitely feels cramped in comparison.I'll also be getting this 800 deal, its almost hard to believe.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2014, 12:52:39 am
content: Quote from: RRobot on February 16, 2014, 12:33:08 amMaybe, but then there's the issue of bench space. And with video out there's always the option of an external monitor, albeit a bit less convenient.

author: Rigby
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2014, 03:08:59 am
content: Quote from: ben_r_ on February 16, 2014, 12:02:20 amAt least in the case of Android, the platform continually gets upgrades which benefit from higher-performance hardware. Because of this, the phone upgrades are not always completely pointless. Software marches on, always. New features always get added, then other features are imagined that require the new features, and therefore the new hardware, to have enough performance to make the phone useful.I agree with the sentiment of your statement. Sometimes product manufacturers upgrade things when they don't need to just to hype things up and begin the product cycle anew.

author: Hydrawerk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2014, 04:19:49 pm
content: One day, there will be 12-bit low end oscilloscopes, I hope. Note that ADCs are still the most expensive part of scopes...

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2014, 04:24:00 pm
content: Quote from: Hydrawerk on February 16, 2014, 04:19:49 pmNo there won't, because very few people need them. 8 bits will always be cheaper, and is good enough most of the time, not just for the ADCs but for the performance of the analogue front-end and the processing power to deal with the data.You may see things like higher effective data width at lower sample rates by oversampling, and many scopes already do this in some form.

author: taemun
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2014, 04:44:34 pm
content: Honestly, 9-bit would be a reasonable improvement on the DSOX2/3000. You should at least aim for more ADC count than you have vertical pixels.That said, I can't see any significant changes like ADC resolution; their big fat MegaZoom ASIC is presumably not going to be respun every cycle. Hence the screen res can't change, nor depthIf there's an update coming, Marketing would ensure it's after the KeySight launch (so what, August?).Other than slapping a B on the end, I can't see what they'd be adding, other than rolling existing features down hill. Anyone for a two-channel AWG on the DSOX3000B?I wouldn't mind them doing more advanced processing for the FFT (a proper filtering chain in an FPGA), and making all of the Math stuff in general snappier would be nice (although really, not needed).They could make the Ethernet a standard option, but why bother changing?I wouldn't mind seeing better probes by default, the N2890A set that comes with the MSOX3054A is decidedly from the 'Economy' range. Tek's MDO3000 ships with 10M || 3.9pF probes. Even the PMK probes that the MSOX4000 series comes with can't compete with that.This thread seems to have wandered a bit off course....

author: Rigby
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2014, 05:12:36 pm
content: Quote from: taemun on February 16, 2014, 04:44:34 pmDon't they all.12-bit won't happen because there's no genuine need for 12-bit readings for most people/applications. An oscilloscope isn't meant to be a precision measuring device; it's used to look at waveforms of analog circuitry to help the operator discover and diagnose faults.Modern scopes add a lot of measurement features because once you've gone digital, it's more or less trivial to add that stuff, and because it's nice to have a single piece of equipment that can offer visualization and measurement at the same time. It doesn't mean that an oscilloscope should be all things to all people.

author: MarkL
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 16, 2014, 07:21:49 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on February 15, 2014, 11:46:32 pmPlenty. I submitted a list of about 45 bugs and enhancement suggestions over a year ago that was enthusiastically accepted. Only one of them, I2C glitch rejection, was addressed.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 16, 2014, 08:52:53 pm
content: Quote from: RRobot on February 16, 2014, 12:33:08 amNot going to happen any time soon. The screen resolution is hard coded into the Megazoom 4 ASIC. That is why the newer 4000 model with the bigger screen was crippled with the same resolution.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 16, 2014, 08:57:52 pm
content: Quote from: grego on February 15, 2014, 01:47:37 pmWow indeed!Maybe they do have an upgrade in the works, because this is certainly spilling all your marbles.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2014, 12:07:18 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on February 16, 2014, 08:52:53 pmIt's not out of the question that they could have a slightly upgraded ASIC for higher resolution and/or more memory.However the license bundle does smell like a quick way to make people either buy Agilent or at least hold off for a while, presumably due to something new from Tek - I can't think why else they would announce a deal like this so far ahead, unless it's part of the Keysight name relaunch.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2014, 12:07:42 am
content: Quote from: MarkL on February 15, 2014, 11:07:01 pmYes it is rather rude to devalue customers existing units, T&M equipment has historically been able to hold its value well and the options even more so.Of note is they don't enable the MSO function in the "ultimate scope" upgrade, and probably don't open up the whole 8M of memory in the 2000 series.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 17, 2014, 12:29:26 am
content: Quote from: Someone on February 17, 2014, 12:07:42 amWhy?It's coming up on 3 years since that scope was released, and in that time they went from zero competition to plenty of red hot competition where they now struggle to compete on price.Do you really expect Agilent to "owe you something" by never dropping the prices to stay in the business?

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 17, 2014, 12:30:37 am
content: Quote from: Someone on February 17, 2014, 12:07:42 amThe MSO function is useless without the probes.The 2000X series (and 3000X) only have 4M of memory.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 17, 2014, 12:39:46 am
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on February 17, 2014, 12:07:18 amIntegrating more memory might be hard, as I believe it's already a big expensive die due to the 4M integrated. A lousy 8M area would double the die area for the memory again. Agilent are the only ones who integrate the sample memory on the main ASIC, and it was great at the time, but they might be paying a price for that now. To really compete on memory I think they have to go to external memory, and that changes the architecture significantly.Maybe the same with resolution. They didn't bother to do it with the big screen 4000 series, so obviously it can't be that easy for them to change.To tight integration of the sample memory and fixed resolution display logic on the ASIC is why Agilent are still the leaders in update performance at these price brackets.Only a fool would think Agilent aren't working on a Megazoom 5 ASIC though...QuoteYes, pre-announcements like this are fairly rare. It's got to be to lock people into Agilent now, and make them reconsider the competition.

author: grego
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2014, 01:00:34 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on February 17, 2014, 12:39:46 amIt worked on me - I'll be buying the full monty for my 3014 (I already got the MSO option so at this point the only "overage" I have on my scope is I paid for the MEMUP but it's a small price to pay for full licensing).

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2014, 01:19:45 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on February 17, 2014, 12:29:26 amI can't recall any of the competition releasing such a large group of options together for free (final firmware releases etc) or at a discount of this level. Until this serial decode has been an expensive option on any scope, and this will shake up the market if they continue it as an ongoing promotion.But for those customers who purchased several options to see them reduced in value to nothing and not even a mention of existing purchases being eligible to claim the whole package, leaves them with a sour taste. A firmware that upgraded existing purchased options to the package would have gone some way to address the perceived value loss.Quote from: EEVblog on February 17, 2014, 12:30:37 amYes, I was wrong on the maximum memory being 4M not 8M. But the "ultimate scope" package still leaves the 4M locked out on the 2000.But the MSO option not being included is bizarre, they sell the cable alone for the price of the MSO upgrade so why not just open it out like the rest of the options? Probably to keep the people who purchased it happy

author: echen1024
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2014, 01:24:39 am
content: Note: oscilloscope are not some consumery shit that is upgraded every year. You buy the oscilloscope that can serve your needs, and keep it for a long time, until you have outgrown it. Simple.

author: Hypernova
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 17, 2014, 01:32:39 am
content: This is a pretty insane deal and I'm very tempted to get it even though I already got the hack (and paid for MEMUP and SEGMEM before that), I tend to try go legit when it's economical and $800 for everything is very economical.As for what can still be fixed definitely more RAM, one clear resulting limitation is when you turn on measurement trends. On lower time bases you can only trend on a small center section of sample memory.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 17, 2014, 01:39:22 am
content: Quote from: Someone on February 17, 2014, 01:19:45 amYou don't see the other manufacturer doing it because they are NOT in the same position as Agilent currently.i.e. having an almost 3 year old design that was the market leader and is now seriously threatened by new competition.Would you prefer that Agilent come out with a new scope instead that undercuts you existing model? What's the difference between doing that and offering the option for free now to stay competitive.QuoteYou don't buy a tool in order to resell it, you buy a tool in order to use it.If you paid X amount for something last month, and it was worth it to you then, then it'sstillworth the same toyounow.QuoteThat might have been nice, yes, for those who just purchased. But in this case they are giving youtwo monthsadvance notice!QuoteOnce again, why? What is the point giving people a MSO software option and having no cable to go with it?Do they think they are going to build their own probes? Do Agilent seriously want to support customers who hack their own probes?Agilent have done nothing wrong here that doesn't happen in the industry all the time. You bought your scope, you take your chances in regarded to a new model coming out, a price drop, a new promotion the day after, or a new deal on free options.

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2014, 01:43:28 am
content: Quote from: Dawgie on February 17, 2014, 01:30:53 amRe:Maximizing profitMake sense. For the leaders of the company, it is their fiduciary duty to maximize profit for the investors.

author: nowlan
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2014, 01:48:58 am
content: I know the Hameg scopes came with serial decoders when they first launched via promotion.Not sure how they can compete with the free speed upgrades Agilent pushing.Still $500 for some decoders (plus memup/segmem) when a separate logic analyzer is cheaper has me confused.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2014, 02:27:00 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on February 17, 2014, 01:39:22 amReleasing a new model with a complete serial decode suite as standard would be a big shake up just as this greatly reduced pricing will be as I mentioned, and any of the competition could have done the same thing by introducing cheaper decode options or more protocols in the option bundles. This is a big move and will be interesting to see how the market responds. Up to this point there have not been affordable serial decode options and the whole option system has been geared around suppressing the second hand value of products since the mix of options you want may not come up on a second hand item, now thats no longer the case.The value of a second hand unoptioned model, vs one that has several options purchased for it is now very slim. And will remain so while this sort of bulk option offer is in place.Quote from: EEVblog on February 17, 2014, 01:39:22 amFor products with a healthy second hand market such as electronic test and measurement hardware, there is a loss of value and it will be measurable. It has only lost no value if you never intend to sell it, true for some people and not for others.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2014, 02:40:21 am
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on February 15, 2014, 11:43:14 pmWild speculation time.Note the package only includes a specific set of options, no promise of any future options to be included. The usual marketing headline from other markets (notably software) is "ultimate upgrade, everything included now and into the future".Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on February 15, 2014, 11:43:14 pmThere are always more options to add, an obvious one is measurement histograms. I'm sure a creative team could come up with another half a dozen "options" to add to the product, some might even be more interesting than the DVM option.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 17, 2014, 02:44:11 am
content: Quote from: Someone on February 17, 2014, 02:27:00 amThe manufacturers don't give two hoots about the price of 2nd hand gear.I don't think you are quite seeing the point here. Agilent were once way ahead of the market in bang-per-buck, and now they are behind. They are simply trying to remain competitive.Ordinarily they would have done this by releasing a new model with new features, memory, bigger screen etc, but they bet BIG on the ASIC and they have to see it through for likely quite a few more years. The only way they can do this is by effectively dropping the price of the options, to try and entice the customer by choosing Agilent now cheap options instead of the competitors deeper memory for example.Ultimately scopes have three 3 main specs, just as they always have, bandwidth, memory, and update rate. Agilent still lead on update rate, but they are quickly looking pretty lackluster in the memory department, so they have to make up for that in added value elsewhere.QuoteThat's not Agilent's problem, and it's not your problem unless you bought your scope to resell in the near future.QuoteNo, it's true for all.If youperceivethe value of your "investment" dropping, then that's entirely your own problem.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2014, 03:18:12 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on February 17, 2014, 02:44:11 amTek and Agilent have both been active in manipulating the second hand market and probably still are, both remove second hand items from the market through buyback or tradein schemes.Quote from: Someone on February 17, 2014, 02:27:00 amIts a big win for the consumer, more function at a lower price. More interestingly Agilent are going about it in a new way that the market has not tested before, the 2000/3000 series from Tek were lagging for several years but they didn't make any offers of this scale to induce sales. This is a huge play from Agilent and it will be interesting to see what follows.Quote from: EEVblog on February 17, 2014, 02:44:11 amI'm not impacted at all, just sympathising with those who paid for options. The claim that the value for them has not dropped is based on your assumption that it is an item they will never sell, which Ithink is insanedisagree with.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 17, 2014, 03:46:55 am
content: Quote from: Someone on February 17, 2014, 03:18:12 amSure, but how it that Agilent's fault?, or how does it have anything to do with the way Agilent should price their products or do business?As someone else said, Agilent are a listed public company, they have a legal fudiciary responsibility to make a profit. They obviously deem that this is the best way for them to achieve that goal at this point in time.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2014, 04:39:40 am
content: EDIT: Oops, sorry, I accidentally edited this post instead of quoting it! I may have killed some text? Dave.Dave's defense of modern business practice almost makes him sound like a Agilent Fanboy and maybe he is, but his remarks are correct.The market moves so quickly these days that stuff is old by the time it is released. We are all pissed when we see something we have bought with our hard earned dosh then sold discounted, but thats the world we live in.

author: Electro Fan
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2014, 05:16:34 am
content: Agilent is looking a bit concerned. And this move probably won't help them at the low end (but it might help them up stream somewhere).At the low end look at Agilent's entry model: DSOX2002A at $1258 + $500 = $1758. How many Rigol DS2072 customers are going to pay nearly $1k more beyond the base model? Some of the Agilent options are already included in the base Rigol model. And some Rigol base features aren't available from Agilent at any price. Maybe Agilent will get a few of these customers but I think Rigol is giving Agilent some competition.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 17, 2014, 05:29:56 am
content: QuoteYes I like Agilent stuff, but that has nothing to do with it, my comments would be the exact same whatever company it was.QuoteCorrect. For anyone to complain that a company dropped the price of their product after they bought it is just having a whinge. Nothing wrong with a whinge of course, but people must realise that no company owes you anything to maintain the "value" of the product after you bought it. To think that is to reject the reality of the commercial world we live in. test gear is no different.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 17, 2014, 05:36:52 am
content: Quote from: Electro Fan on February 17, 2014, 05:16:34 amThe Rigol with arb gen like the Agilent has is $1200, so only $500 difference, but still quite significant.Agilent have a 4CH option also, but you have to buy that up front.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2014, 05:46:33 am
content: Quote from: tautech on February 17, 2014, 04:39:40 amYep sure did, but no big deal Dave.Now we all know how Dave can change posts to his liking. :-)

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 17, 2014, 05:53:25 am
content: Quote from: tautech on February 17, 2014, 05:46:33 amSorry, only realised when I hit Post, and then the original post is gone for good.It's annoying for admins and moderators because the Modify button is right next to the Quote button.

author: AndyC_772
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2014, 08:01:57 am
content: I can see this new option being attractive for new scope buyers - why buy any other options? - but much less so for existing ones such as myself.I already have the options I need - serial decodes, extra memory, wavegen and DVM. I might be upset at the fact that they'll become available as part of the new package for much less, were it not for the fact that I've already had good use out of them. They've already paid for themselves in terms of the work they've allowed me to do, and Agilent owes me nothing.The only reason to buy this package now would be to 'mop up' the extra options that, until now at least, I've not needed. Part of me quite fancies segmented memory and advanced maths, and it's just possible that one day the power analysis or CAN bus decodes will be useful too - but that's not really justification to spend $800.I'm still quite surprised to see this package being offered, though, and I'd guess it may be a way to help shift stock of unsold new units before a model refresh later in the year.

author: iRad
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2014, 02:37:50 pm
content: While the frustration of those who spent hard earned personal cash on some of these options is understandable, everyone including the aforementioned should be very happy with this move. It may seem immediately painful to some, but ultimately, moves like this in the marketplace greatly benefit us ALL, even those who may initially feel negatively impacted.If your newly purchase and optioned out Agilent scope was your last ever expected purchase of this type of equipment, then as Dave said,QuoteThe rest of us can be happy that this will help to drive prices into more sane places, greatly benefitting the vast majority of hobbyist and small entrepreneurs on limited budgets. Whether it lowers the entry price bar on new kit, or it drives the price of used gear down, we all benefit. WAY TO GO AGILENT (er uh Keysight)! I know you did not really do it for us alone, but thanks anyway!That said, it would be nice if Agilent (Keysight) were to give some consideration to those who in good faith gave up their hard earned cash to option out their scopes previously. After all, customer satisfaction and their perception of value goes a long way to achieving customer retention and new customer sales.

author: grego
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2014, 12:46:16 pm
content: Quote from: taemun on February 18, 2014, 12:30:54 pmCompletely unrelated - they missed their EPS estimate from the analysts is all. Natural market reaction when the news drops of that. When it's a trend, THEN it's a problem.But while their EPS came in short (which is why the stock dropped, stockholders earned less per share than they "thought" they would) Agilent itself actually earned more (higher net income for the quarter). Meh. Stock market.

author: philpem
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2014, 01:53:10 pm
content: Having blown nearly £6k on a pretty well optioned out CertiPrime MSOX3054A (specifically: Wavegen, I2C/SPI, MEMUP), I'd be lying if I said this wasn't a little disappointing. Taken as a 1:1 currency conversion, that $800 is less than I paid for those three options (though if you factor in VAT it's about the same)...But on the other hand, $800 is a damn good deal for all the options -- though realistically Segmented Memory and CANbus are the only ones I'd really use.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 18, 2014, 10:24:30 pm
content: Here is the press release:http://www.agilent.com/about/newsroom/presrel/2014/11feb-em14028.html

author: ben_r_
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2014, 11:11:20 pm
content: Ha, come April 1st I am seriously going to try and get someone over there to credit me back the money I spend on upgrades for this scope already and let me pay the difference for this all inclusive upgrade!

author: ralphrmartin
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 04, 2014, 10:31:35 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on February 17, 2014, 02:44:11 amWrong, for 2 reasons (just as for cars):1) Higher retained value means you are more likely to buy one of their products if you think you may need to upgrade in the future.2) Higher retained value gives the impression of more desirable / higher quality gear, making purchasers more likely to buy your product.

author: mjkuwp
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 06, 2014, 03:52:35 am
content: Quote from: ralphrmartin on March 04, 2014, 10:31:35 amwell maybe, but on the other hand I have seen from the inside that the financial people are sometimes heavily motivated by the sales targets they have been given. This could be monthly or even quarterly. in the long run it can be said they care but in the short run - and especially when facing a tough situation I don't see them looking beyond the quarter.This odd thing about having a promotion through March 31 and a different one that is announced yet not available until April 1. Are they trying to spread revenue into two different fiscal quarters?I am considering taking advantage of this deal, whatever the reasoning they have. It would be my first digital oscilloscope. I am also considering Hameg, though it will be tough to do this in the US. I would consider Rigol if they had a mixed signal option on their 2000 series.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 06, 2014, 03:57:50 am
content: Quote from: mjkuwp on March 06, 2014, 03:52:35 amPerhaps, but it's pretty obvious that their real goal is to make you reconsider buying the new Tektronix MDO3000 which offers a spectrum analyser for the same price as Agilent's 3000X scope.

author: echen1024
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2014, 04:00:11 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on March 06, 2014, 03:57:50 amAlso, when is our review coming?

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 06, 2014, 04:20:06 am
content: Quote from: echen1024 on March 06, 2014, 04:00:11 amDon't know. Teardown is rendering now, all 1 hour 15min of it.

author: mjkuwp
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 06, 2014, 04:45:03 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on March 06, 2014, 03:57:50 amoh! but I am looking at the 2000 series, in the region of 3000 USD . And the 3000 series seems to price out to around 10,000 USD when the options are added in. I thought they were responding to excess inventory coming from competition from Rigol.... but then I am new in this field and sort of making a WAG so .... maybe others can make better guesses than me.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 06, 2014, 05:17:34 am
content: Quote from: mjkuwp on March 06, 2014, 04:45:03 amIf you look at the price comparisons between the MDO3000 and the DSOX3000 models they are almost the same price.Rigol is part of it, for sure, but Tek have always been Agilent's biggest rival (and vice-versa) and still are. But Tek haven't been able to compete for the last 3 years since Agilent bout out the X series. Now Tek are back in the game and it's almost certainly causing Agilent to soil their pants, hence the new offer.

author: Neganur
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 06, 2014, 06:39:09 am
content: I hate how you now have to ask for a quote to see the price, their website used to have all the models listed with prices shown.EDIT: called and got a quote for the DSOX3014A (4-Ch, 100 MHz, no options), 3100 EUR before VAT (it's 24% here so some 3850 EUR total). I think I'll look for a Rigol instead.

author: Frost
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2014, 11:42:16 am
content: Quote from: gazelle on March 06, 2014, 08:13:49 amThis month you get a discount of 15% at any HMO3000 model.http://blog.hameg.com/What I not like at the Hameg scopes, but that's only my personal view,There is only one rotary controller for the y-axis, so you have to switchthe channel with a button.

author: nowlan
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2014, 12:31:08 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on March 06, 2014, 11:18:14 amThe guys from Watt Circuit did a review on youtube. Althought im not sure how objective they are (exposure to brands).

author: Frost
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2014, 02:59:02 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on March 06, 2014, 02:47:49 pm4800wfm/sThe RTM2000 Series -> 12500wfm/sThe RTE Series -> >1000000wfm/s

author: mjkuwp
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 06, 2014, 06:25:42 pm
content: Quote from: gazelle on March 06, 2014, 03:45:42 pmhow do you know it works this way (wishing to learn and discuss)? What I see in their datasheet is that generally both HOO11 and HOO10 are listed as "hardware accelerated decode". The difference seems to be:HOO10allows you to use both the digital logic channels AND the analog channels as sources for decode {you could decode two busses}HOO11allows only to decode using the analog channel as the source for decode.so HOO10 option on the Hameg scopes looks to be a lot better because you can decode on the digital channels and use analog channels to monitor power supplies or analog sensor signals.hopefully this hasn't taken the discussion too far off base. I am comparing Agilent, Rigol and Hameg right now (2000 series levels).

author: Hydrawerk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2014, 09:43:36 pm
content: Hameg digital scopes are quite compact, but the user interface is IMHO rather confusing. At my university, there are Teks, Agilents, a few LeCroys, even some UNI-T and Owons but no Hameg. On the other hand, I have at home an analogue Hameg 504-2 made in 2007. It is OK.

author: dr.diesel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2014, 11:30:41 am
content: Quote from: mjkuwp on March 06, 2014, 06:25:42 pmI would be very interested in reading your comparison, please do post when you're ready.

author: mjkuwp
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 07, 2014, 11:51:46 am
content: Quote from: dr.diesel on March 07, 2014, 11:30:41 amoh. sorry. I am comparing them in consideration/hopes of purchasing one of them. As such, I will only be able to really learn about the one I purchase. Compared to that my only other references are the Tek scopes at work and my analog Tek at home.So far the main difference is that Rigol does not have 4 channel yet nor the mixed signal but I assume and hope it is coming.Hameghas low noise front enddoes not have uber-high waveform per second rates.small screen, but built in DVI output - yeah!only 3 analog channels when you hook up the digitalvendor and manufacturer Support? tbd.AgilentReally attractive pricing right nowlarge screenindividual vertical controlsCAN decoding will be part of the April 1 offer (pretty sure) and this is attractive as I might peek at the signals in my TDIgood support from the vendor and manufacturer (based on my experience with the DMM)I think in the USA Agilent is the way to go if you want mixed signal and more than 2 analog channels as I do. But of course each person is unique.

author: Frost
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2014, 12:48:34 pm
content: Quote from: mjkuwp on March 07, 2014, 11:51:46 amYes, with the new MSO1000Z Series from RigolLook at the link below and click on the picture.The text is German but the picture is multi languagehttp://heise.de/-2126545According to the text, the release will be in summerand the price 200 Euro above the equivalent DSO version.

author: Mark_O
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2014, 02:14:03 pm
content: Quote from: Frost on March 07, 2014, 12:48:34 pmYes, looks nice......though the screen is starting to get a bit crowded.

author: echen1024
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2014, 03:54:58 pm
content: Damn. I already bought my DS1074Z.

author: dr.diesel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2014, 05:24:11 pm
content: Quote from: echen1024 on March 07, 2014, 03:54:58 pmGood things come in pairs!

author: echen1024
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2014, 06:46:02 pm
content: Quote from: dr.diesel on March 07, 2014, 05:24:11 pm7 analog channels. Huh. That's getting me interedted.

author: Rigby
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2014, 08:56:44 pm
content: What are you doing that needs 7 ANALOG channels?

author: mwilson
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2014, 09:41:41 pm
content: Quote from: echen1024 on March 07, 2014, 06:46:02 pmThat's a 4-channel, 70MHz scope.Seven analog channels would be pretty wild, though.

author: echen1024
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2014, 10:41:46 pm
content: Quote from: Rigby on March 07, 2014, 08:56:44 pmNothing at all. But if my DS1074Z does get an analog friend, maybe I will have 7 analog channels. Looking around for a broken 2465 under $125.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2014, 11:09:02 pm
content: Quote from: mwilson on March 07, 2014, 09:41:41 pmHow about 8..?

author: echen1024
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 08, 2014, 12:03:04 am
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on March 07, 2014, 11:09:02 pmI would think that 2 Rigol's would be cheaper than that gorgeous beast.

author: Frost
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 08, 2014, 12:12:38 am
content: Quote from: echen1024 on March 08, 2014, 12:03:04 amLOL 2 -> 20

author: echen1024
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 08, 2014, 12:27:07 am
content: Quote from: Frost on March 08, 2014, 12:12:38 amPurchasing the best models in both lines, (DS1104Z-S and DLM4058), I could get 20 signal gens and 61 analog channels! Or, I could get 10 analog channels with 3 Agilent 3k series.

author: Rigby
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 08, 2014, 02:03:38 am
content: Quote from: echen1024 on March 07, 2014, 10:41:46 pmI have a Tek 7633 (4x100MHz), a Tek 7623 (4x100MHz), a Panasonic VP-5610P (3x100MHz), and a Rigol DS1104Z-S (4x100MHz). I'm waiting for the weather to warm up so I can start to work on the 7623. It is the only one that doesn't operate perfectly, and it seems there is a great deal of crap in the module edge connectors on the mainframe unit; turning knobs and pushing buttons on the plugins makes the traces jump like crazy, when those plugins don't do this in my 7633. Anyway...Highly recommend the 7000 series Tek scopes, by the way, and I will admit to wanting a 2465 as well. A 7900 chassis will support up to 500MHz, if I recall.http://www.tek.com/Measurement/Support/scopes/faq/history.html

author: echen1024
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 08, 2014, 04:01:58 am
content: Quote from: Rigby on March 08, 2014, 02:03:38 amThe Tek 7k series is very nice, however, take up waayyy too much bench space. If I can snag one on the cheap however, you betcha I will go for it.P.S. aren't the 24xx scopes simply beautiful?

author: Hydrawerk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2014, 06:56:43 pm
content: Yokogawa scopes are too expensive. And often they have not much impressive ADCs. This DLM2000 500Mhz scope has only 1,25GSa/s per each channel. (It can be interleaved to 2,5GSa/s per channel if you use only two of all four channels or so...)On the other hand, they have some interesting software features and function. But they are not much popular in Europe...http://tmi.yokogawa.com/products/oscilloscopes/digital-and-mixed-signal-oscilloscopes/dlm2000-mso-series/

author: dr.diesel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 13, 2014, 10:27:14 am
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on March 13, 2014, 09:54:56 amI haven't used any of their T&M gear, but their process control/transmitters/displays/etc are absolutely top of the line, used them by the thousands.

author: mjkuwp
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 17, 2014, 06:03:56 pm
content: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/agilent-msox2012a-'logic-analyzer'/is a related discussion. Agilent serial decode seems to be available on the analog channels. leaves me wondering what to do with the digital ones.With Hameg there are two different options one can purchase - I mentioned it a few posts back. One is like Agilent and only has decoding on the analog channels - the other lets you do decoding on both. You are supposed to be able to decode two busses at the same time.

author: MarkL
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 17, 2014, 06:24:19 pm
content: Quote from: mjkuwp on March 17, 2014, 06:03:56 pmThe 3000X and 4000X do not limit decode to the analog channels. So, you could trigger and decode on a 4-signal SPI bus with the digital inputs and still have your analog channels available.If you're referring to just the 2000X, I dunno either. The digital inputs do seem a little pointless.

author: Mark_O
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2014, 07:44:27 pm
content: Quote from: mjkuwp on March 17, 2014, 06:03:56 pmIf you have serial decode enabled, then... nothing. The digital channels are disabled when serial decode is turned on.

author: mjkuwp
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 17, 2014, 08:07:42 pm
content: Quote from: Mark_O on March 17, 2014, 07:44:27 pmyes, I am referring to 2000 only - sorry I keep forgetting there are other series to this line.yikes Mark_O. Really sorry to do this to you Mark_O... but are you _sure_? is this confirmed in the manual or did you ask Agilent directly? I know it sucks to have something like this questioned but I have to ask as I am considering a purchase really soon. I'll do my own checking as well given the fact the user and service guides are online.I just wonder if given how complicated a scope can be - is there a different mode or settings change that would affect it.What do you think of trying the trigger output? I thought there is one.

author: MarkL
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 17, 2014, 09:20:15 pm
content: There's a thread over in the Agilent scope forum that provides a little more detail about the 2000X MSO/serial decode issue:http://www.home.agilent.com/owc_discussions/thread.jspa?threadID=36390&tstart=60FYI.

author: Mark_O
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2014, 10:42:57 pm
content: Quote from: mjkuwp on March 17, 2014, 08:07:42 pmThat's OK. You just made me go back to find the spot in theUser's Guide PDF. Chapter 6 on Digital Channels starts off with: "Digital channels and serialdecodecannot be on at the same time. The  key takes precedence over the  key. Serialtriggerscan be used when digital channels are on." (emphasis mine)So, while you can use serial triggers with the digital channels, as soon as you turn serial Decode on, the digital channels go away.QuoteSorry, I don't know what this means?

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2014, 11:30:06 pm
content: My opinion is that the 2000X is too expensive now compare to the DS1074Z and DS2000 series.Even the 1074Z scope beats it on most fronts. It's wfms/s is slightly lower, and it might only sample at 1GSa/s or 250MSa/s on four channels, but it makes up for those limitations for the much lower price, and greater feature set (four channels, serial decode on all four channels, or two decodes at once, advanced triggers (incl serial trig), deep 24Mpt memory, etc.) For a bit extra you get the extra DDS hardware for sig gen (you're paying for it in the Agilent regardless of whether you use it or not.)That's not to mention that Rigol fit all of the fast update rate (25,000) into one FPGA. Agilent spun an ASIC to do 50,000. I think that's an amazing achievement on Rigol's part.I think Agilent is lucky to have the loyal base that will buy into a good brand name, and there's no doubt the 2000X is a good scope, but it's going to really have to drop a lot in price to compete in the next few years as Rigol gets even more popular. And there needs to be a lower-end 2000X (like a refresh of the 1000 series, moving away from badging Rigols) The fact that Agilent's T&M business is spinning off due to being a loss maker should indicate they need to improve their strategy... and hopefully not become another Tek. (Though it has to be said it appears like Tek are at least doing some product R&D with the MDO scopes.)

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 18, 2014, 12:16:42 am
content: Quote from: tom66 on March 17, 2014, 11:30:06 pmNot quite fair.The ASIC in the 2000X is the same as the 3000X, it is capable of 1,000,000 wfps but is software limited to 50K

author: Hydrawerk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2014, 12:49:19 am
content: Quote from: tom66 on March 17, 2014, 11:30:06 pmWell, I miss a PictBridge on my DSOX2000. But it has better and bigger fan than DS2000 or DS1000.

author: mjkuwp
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 18, 2014, 01:09:38 am
content: Quote from: Mark_O on March 17, 2014, 10:42:57 pmthanks for the info!The Agilent should have a TRIG OUT. It is a signal available that can be passed to external equipment. A signal on a second oscilloscope can be stabilized by this signal and so it might let you use two instruments in tandem....I agree Rigol will change this 2000 series end of the market but right now the product offerings don't have apples to apples. For example the 'z' series from Rigol seems to only go up to 100MHz and does not have MSO option.

author: Mark_O
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2014, 12:10:12 pm
content: Quote from: mjkuwp on March 18, 2014, 01:09:38 amYou're welcome.QuoteAh, OK. You didn't provide any of that context before (in this thread), and while I agreed it has a TrigOut, I didn't know what your point was. I see though you mentioned that in the other thread, so it makes sense now.Yes, you could use two in tandem, one handling digital and the other analog. If all you need is to see both at once, that would work (though using two instruments to do the job of one isn't ideal, from the standpoint of either space or cost). But if you had any interest in correlating the timing of the two, you'd be SOL.QuoteWell, in my opinion, the MSO option on Agilent's X2000 series is so crippled it isn't worth much. Certainly not the price they're charging. And for what I do (mixed systems, and embedded systems development) it frankly isn't worth anything to me, even if it were free.

author: Hydrawerk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2014, 07:35:50 pm
content: Quote from: mjkuwp on March 18, 2014, 01:09:38 amYes, Agilent DSOX2000 and DSOX3000 (and more...) have a Trig Out.

author: alex.forencich
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2014, 10:52:50 pm
content: Quote from: Mark_O on March 18, 2014, 12:10:12 pmYes, this is very true. I did not realize that you could not use the MSO option and serial decode at the same time. That's one of those "features" that just makes you say "you have GOT to be kidding me!" I have personally used the MSO7000 and MSO3000 series, and these are excellent units, especially if you can get a good deal on a used one. It really makes the MSO2000 series sad in comparison. The least they could do is transition to software decoding if the scope is lacking the proper hardware.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2014, 11:35:40 pm
content: Quote from: alex.forencich on March 18, 2014, 10:52:50 pm..and even more so now they've been hacked

author: plesa
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2014, 11:57:44 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on March 18, 2014, 11:35:40 pmAnd It probably makes Agilent thinking about new promo action - full feature set for 800 USD :-)

author: alex.forencich
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2014, 12:44:51 am
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on March 18, 2014, 11:35:40 pmHmm, where did this service menu on my scope come from, I wonder....

author: alex.forencich
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2014, 12:56:23 am
content: Quote from: plesa on March 18, 2014, 11:57:44 pmIt would be really nice if they offered that for the 5000/6000/7000 series as well, but unfortuntately it's just for the newest ones, probably in an attempt to get more units going out the door. Not that it would have made much difference for me as the scope I have came with most of the modules when I got it originally, the only one I eded up purchasing was I2C/SPI decoding.

author: Hydrawerk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2014, 02:25:25 pm
content: An Agilent distributor fromhttp://www.htest.cz/index.phptold me that there will be a new Agilent scope released in a few months... A successor to DSSOX2000 and DSOX3000 from 2011.

author: mjkuwp
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 21, 2014, 05:09:15 pm
content: Quote from: Hydrawerk on March 21, 2014, 02:25:25 pmcredible? how would they know this and is it more than just a SKU change to put the new name on the scope? Is it typical to have such a short release schedule in this market? just 3 years for a product line?hate to say this, as I really wanted to buy Agilent due to the product quality and service quality but it is hard to justify the extra many, many hundreds of US dollars on my home, personal budget - compared to Rigol, of course

author: Rigby
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2014, 06:16:19 pm
content: I guarantee that somewhere out there is an Agilent beta-tester or two. Usually they are very, very good at keeping quiet, sometimes they flap their trap.free_electron is an Agilent beta tester, but if you ask him about any current betas going on, he's going to do the right thing and feign ignorance of any and all tests, even those he's a part of.So, there are people in this board who know what's coming, but they're bound by contract to shut up.

author: Frost
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2014, 06:23:09 pm
content: Quote from: Hydrawerk on March 21, 2014, 02:25:25 pmThe latest promotion ends September 30 2014Maybe this could be a hint.

author: AndyC_772
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2014, 07:38:42 pm
content: IMHO that date is just [start date] + [time to get purchase approved in large company].

author: Neganur
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 21, 2014, 10:25:43 pm
content: Quote from: gazelle on March 06, 2014, 08:13:49 amThanks for this, I had not thought of R&S/Hameg oscilloscopes at all so I needed to take some time to research their models. (I use their spectrum analyzers and power sensors at work)I'm looking for a 4ch scope in the 200-500 MHz region (500 is nice to have, 200 or more is need to have), I have no opinion regarding DSO vs. MSO since I can use dedicated hardware for that if needed. I'm considering the DSOX3034, the HMO3524/HMO3034 or a Rigol DS4000 series scope.I like the HMO3524 you recommended and received a quote for an ex-demo unit at 3500 EUR (excl. VAT). However, the newer HMO3034 goes for 3600 EUR (excl. VAT) and with the current 15% HAMEG March promotion I could get it for as little as 3000 EUR, which makes me prefer the HMO3034. Then, there is the optional bandwidth upgrade from 300 MHz to 500 MHz, whereas the HMO3524 is maxed out at 350 MHz.At the same time (until the end of March still), I could get the Agilent DSOX3034 for 3400 EUR and then the complete option set for 640 EUR, which puts it into the price range of an premium used Agilent MSOX3054 (without options, and ofc excluded from the current bandwidth promotion) or the Hameg 500 MHz HMO3054 (~4100 EUR). The Rigol DS4034 sits at 3500 EUR.(all prices ecl. VAT)The main feature differences are:Hameg:+ 4 GSa/s max at 300/350 MHz (HMO3054/HMO3524)+ 4+16 channel MSO as standard option (BUT: the [I²C, SPI and UART] or [VAN and LIN] trigger- and decode functions are optional ~300 EUR each)+ 1 mV/Div vertical+ 640x480 6.5" screen, with 31 steps intensity grading, 8x10(12) Div x-axis, y-axis (12 with menus disabled), (x-axis 20 Div virtually, vertical scroll bar)+ 2x8MPts memory (i.e. 1x8, 2x8, 4x4 etc depending on the amount of analog channels in use)+ 64kPts FFT+ Ethernet and DVI-D (480p) outputs as standard option+ selectable interpolation: sinx/x, pulse, linear+ 8/10 bit vert. resolution- 4800/5000 wfm/s (HMO3054/HMO3524) display update rate- Bandwidth upgrade from 300 to 500 MHz costs 1300 EUR (buy the 500 MHz model right away, it's cheaper).- comes without the digital pods (550 EUR for two 8-bit pods)- segmented memory is optional (500 EUR)- I²C, SPI and UART trigger- and decode functions are optional (300 EUR)- CAN and LIN trigger- and decode functions are optional (500 EUR)- inputs 200 Vp max?Things that annoyed me:Really, if you make MSO a standard option at least include the pods? Then, if I buy the pods for 550 EUR, I can't use the I²C serial trigger or decode without spending another 300 EUR?One vertical knob for four channels is probably going to irritate me in the long run. I've always had one knob for each channel on all of the scopes I worked with. But this really depends on how it was implemented.The 4800 vs. 5000 wfm/s is the only difference between the HMO3054 and the HMO3524 that I could fine (except for the bandwidth of course)Agilent 3000 X- series:+ 4 GSa/s max at 350 MHz+ 16 bit DSO pods are included in the MSO model+ 800*480 8.5" screen, 64 steps intensity grading, 8x10 Div+ 1 million wfm/s+ 2 MPts memory (or was 4 the standard now?)+ AWG option+ 64 kPts FFT+ 640 EUR promotion for the AWG, memory upgrade, segmented memory, serial decode, advanced math functions+ great user interface (I'm biased, since I use the scope at work)+ 8/12 bit vert. resolution (they claim 12-bit with averaging on etc)- 1mV/Div and 2mV/Div are magnifications of the 4mV/Div setting- advanced math is an option- segmented memory is an option- LAN connectivity optional- MSO model a lot more expensive than the DSO modelEven with the current bandwidth promotion, the premium Used MSOX3054 seems to be the best deal around by far.Rigol:Still need to look at the specs in detail+ 4 GSa/s max at 350 MHz+ 800x480 9" screen, 256 step intensity grading, 8x14 Div+ lots of memory+ USB, LAN, VGA output standard+ 2mV/Div+ up to 110k wfm/s+ 8 bit vert. resolution ("two channels sample at the same time)+ complex triggers standard+ complex math standard- 2048 points FFT- serial decoder optional- decoding and fuctions are in software (slow responsiveness?)It's a tough choice with the current Agilent promotions.

author: Sparky
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2014, 12:24:32 am
content: Quote from: Frost on March 21, 2014, 06:23:09 pmQuote from: AndyC_772 on March 21, 2014, 07:38:42 pmIn seriousness, end Sept is not so surprising for the coming promotion:The bandwidth upgrade: Oct 1 2013 to March 31 2014 =6 monthsThe feature bundle: Apr 1 2014 to Sep 30 2014 =6 months

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2014, 09:11:48 am
content: Quote from: Neganur on March 21, 2014, 10:25:43 pmYou should also take a serious look at used Agilent 6000 or 7000 - these still stand up well to current models.

author: eurofox
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 22, 2014, 09:32:08 am
content: Hi,I got my Agilent MSOX3104A (1Ghz version) and this scope is really amazing. I enabled the trial options and 1st of April I will have the permanent full option.I did a quick and dirty test of the FFT compared to my Rigol Spectrum analyzer with the same parameter frequency of 1 Ghz and get similar results, mainly the noise floor difference because the dynamic difference of both instruments.No visible response delay from the front panel on the scope, I suppose the FFT is computed in hardware, not by CPU.eurofox

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2014, 01:30:55 pm
content: Quote from: mjkuwp on March 21, 2014, 05:09:15 pmIf there is something new, after only 3 years I can't see it being anything remotely radical - could be as little as a facelift, the new name, maybe throwing in some options & some new software features.

author: Hydrawerk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2014, 02:09:25 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on March 22, 2014, 09:11:48 amI would prefer InfiniiVision 7000BSeries Oscilloscope, because they have Automatic Search and Navigate.The 6000 series does not have this.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2014, 02:55:55 pm
content: Quote from: Hydrawerk on March 22, 2014, 02:09:25 pmYes, and a bigger screen. However the 6000 is otherwise the same and tends to be cheaper and more widely available. The differences with the 7000A/B versions were discussed in another thread and ISTR the conclusion was that the differences aren't a big deal.The 5/6/7000 still offers good value for money compared with newer models, and doesn't really lack anything major, more so with all the "free" options now available, and should be in the list of scopes to be seriously considered by anyone looking to buy in the >$1000 price range

author: Neganur
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 22, 2014, 05:39:49 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on March 22, 2014, 02:55:55 pmI'm not sure how to deal with this fact. It certainly makes the 6000/7000 series scope very attractive. IIRC, the 3000 X-series has had it's bandwidth options exposed too - meaning with the current promotion you'd get the DSOX3034 for the price of a DSOX3024, increase its BW and then buy (or don't) all options after April 1st.I really like that the 6000 series has LAN as standard standard option and I prefer the footprint of the 6000 or 3000 X-series with a slight bias towards the bigger screen of the 3000X. Both the 4000X and 7000 are too big on my desk. I must admit I prefer the newer GUI of the X-series...but the 6000 is very usable.How responsive is the touch on the 4000x by the way?

author: mjkuwp
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 31, 2014, 02:54:13 am
content: The Agilent offer for higher bandwidth versus price will expire soon. March 31.Starting the next day, April the 'ultimate' upgrade offer will start.Any takers out there? I am curious.Personally I am going to pass because I think I can get something better if I wait a bit. I will be working with strain gauges and battery powered analog circuits so I prefer the good sensitivity and low noise front ends offered by Hameg and Rigol. I am also looking for serial trigger and decode options since the rest of my work is digital.On the other hand, those Agilent scopes are really nice with the large screen and the ergonomic layout.

author: KD0RC
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2014, 12:13:12 am
content: Quote from: mjkuwp on March 31, 2014, 02:54:13 amI went with the Agilent DSOX 2022A and am very happy with it. It was essentially the same price as the Rigol 2000 series that I almost went with. I plan on doing the April 1 deal tomorrow to keep all of the cool options alive. I don't have a burning need for the function generator, but to have it thrown in with the items I really need (1Mpt memory, UART and I2C decode) is a real plus.The only control that is a bit disappointing is the small multi-function knob. I am getting used to it, but I still intuitively grab one of the large knobs by mistake from time to time. Otherwise, the ergonomics and feel of the controls are excellent.

author: alex.forencich
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2014, 03:44:41 am
content: Well, at least one multifunction knob is better than Tektronix with two, and no very obvious indications of which one corresponds to which function.

author: Hydrawerk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2014, 08:19:42 pm
content: Is it possible to replace that knob with a bigger one?

author: iRad
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2014, 12:04:15 am
content: Talked to Agilent Sales Support today about their new ‘Upgrade to your Ultimate Scope program’ (started today, April 1st).I mentioned to them that I had previously purchased the DSOX3WAVEGEN, DSOXEDK, and DSOXDVM for my MSOX3054 Scope. I said I was hoping I could either get a credit for those items, or simply purchase the ‘bundle’ without the three options I already owned (same thing, but the bean counters might view it differently). First off, the sales rep was not at all familiar with the program and had to do some research. Then they needed to get their sales manager involved, only to finally say that there is no such discounting allowed for previously owned/installed options. Well... I was not terribly happy with that bit of news, so I have now opened a case with customer service. I should expect to hear back from them tomorrow, but it doesn’t look very promising.We need any DSOX/MSOX owners that have previously purchased options to also put this question to them as soon as possible. If they hear enough flack, they might give way to reason.

author: that1guy
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: April 02, 2014, 04:22:00 am
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on March 10, 2014, 04:05:50 pmWe have a few of these at work. While our lab is mostly agilent scopes (with a handful of teks), the guys who use yokogawa scopes seem to like em.

author: neslekkim
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2014, 08:06:14 am
content: Quote from: Frost on March 07, 2014, 12:48:34 pmLooks like there are more MSO's coming from Rigol?http://www.certipedia.com/certificates/50277060?locale=en

author: eurofox
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 02, 2014, 08:36:37 am
content: Quote from: iRad on April 02, 2014, 12:04:15 amI can understand your frustration but I understand the position of Agilent as well.People usually agree when it is hardware in such case but not software, imagine you got from Microsoft Word and Excel that you bought, one year pass and the full Office Suite is available for a price just above the price you pay for Word and Excel, do you think that Microsoft will credit you?This 1st April bundle is a real aggressive action against competition, you get for $800 a value of +/- $11000 of software options, there are more player now on the professional oscilloscope market and lets face the true electronics development/service is not growing in Europe and USA.eurofox

author: nowlan
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2014, 11:40:21 am
content: I do not think you can any bw upgraqde.just decoders, seg mem, etc.

author: AndyC_772
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2014, 11:43:28 am
content: You don't get bandwidth or MSO upgrades... nothing that would effectively turn your scope into a different model.The list of options included is here:http://www.agilent.aspen-electronics.com/dsox3appbndlQuote from: eurofox on April 02, 2014, 08:36:37 amI'd contend that you're not really getting $11000 of "value" with the bundle, unless you'd otherwise have bought every last option at full price.I already have quite a few options on my scope, and I've had good use of them. It's a shame I had to buy them before the bundle was announced, but they've more than paid for themselves anyway.Nevertheless I'll probably be getting the bundle because I have a couple of jobs coming up which may require CAN decoding, and it would be silly to just buy that one feature alone. That makes the value of the bundle (to me) the price of the CAN feature I need, plus the price at which I might have considered buying a couple of other 'nice to have' options that I don't strictly need but which might make my life a bit easier... segmented memory and advanced maths, perhaps.Features included in the bundle but which I don't anticipate ever using have no value, of course.

author: eurofox
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 02, 2014, 12:03:20 pm
content: Of course the value is only if you need the options but it add anyway value to the oscilloscope.I got the full bandwidth of 1 Ghz and have since yesterday the full genuine options.eurofox

author: Neganur
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 02, 2014, 12:44:12 pm
content: IIRC, Agilent had since the release of the 2000/3000 X-series several promotions, like free sig gen for the 2000 at some point? It's pretty much like the super market sale of the week. Are you going to file a claim on tomato's last week price just because this week it's 20% off? I could imagine that even if you now buy the promotion package, the prices of the individual packages that you didn't buy yet amount to far more than what you already paid.I do understand your feeling though. *pats shoulder*

author: HackedFridgeMagnet
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2014, 02:16:48 pm
content: I guess people may be wary of buying upgrades in future if they think upgrades are going to be discounted heavily later on.That said they were seriously expensive upgrades, they cost more than the scopes.

author: KD0RC
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2014, 02:24:11 am
content: Quote from: Hydrawerk on April 01, 2014, 08:19:42 pmIt is. I moved the larger knob from the horizontal spot to the multiselect spot and it fits pretty well. I am trying to get Agilent to sell me the larger knob, but I am not doing this as a company, so they denied my request. I will try to reach out to someone there to get past this red tape.In the meantime, I ordered the App Bundle, but have not heard back from the retailer yet. I assumed it would come in the form of an e-mail, but their tracking site just says TBD for delivery. They shipped me the scope REALLY quickly, so I am surprised about this delay. Has anyone else ordered this upgrade and gotten it yet?

author: eurofox
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 04, 2014, 04:44:45 am
content: Quote from: KD0RC on April 04, 2014, 02:24:11 amI think we have a better customer service over here, last year I order a large knob for a generator, a few days later I got it in my mailbox free of charge.I order the bundle and on the 1st of April in the morning it was in my email.

author: KD0RC
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2014, 05:13:16 pm
content: Quote from: eurofox on April 04, 2014, 04:44:45 amWow, that is good. I did get the scope the same week that I ordered it, so I am happy about that. I think they must have goofed when ordering the App Bundle. I called them and they said all the upgrades would be in next week, and that they would get me a temp license extension, but just as I am typing this, the real thing showed up! I will have to try it to be sure it loads OK.EDIT:Loaded just fine!

author: iRad
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 16, 2014, 10:18:43 pm
content: The Agilent app bundle is a huge bargain, too bad the promotion will be over September 30, 2014. I wonder how many will want to add options afterwards, and only then realize they missed the opportunity.

author: Sbampato12
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 16, 2014, 11:12:10 pm
content: Quote from: KD0RC on April 04, 2014, 02:24:11 amHere (brazil) I bought a pair of bumpers a handle and a knob for my used power supply. It arrived yesterday, take about 2 weeks, but mainly because our customs are very slow.The only question here is the minimal value of purchase, we need spend at least R$150 (or about US$ 70~80) on each order.If I'm not wrong in Agilent website in United States have a online store for parts.

author: JoeN
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2014, 01:32:38 am
content: I can't wait for a competent but second tier oscilloscope company like Rigol to figure out they can get an edge on Agilent and Tek if they make the scope an open platform for third party applications. Run it on Windows CE and let developers write their own software which runs in a sandbox on the scope. They could provide a lot of value without having to do very much development by doing that and I think Rigol doesn't exactly make a ton of money by selling their own software upgrades.

author: Rigby
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2014, 02:04:00 am
content: Quote from: JoeN on May 22, 2014, 01:32:38 amAfter working with Rigol PC software for a while, I'm not totally confident that Rigol can be called "competent" in any way, except for the in the bare minimum terms of the definition.That said, I agree with your notion; it would be powerful. I fear that it won't happen though, because option licensing revenue for scopes can bring in more revenue than the sale of the scopes themselves.

author: FrankenPC
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 22, 2014, 03:05:35 am
content: Quote from: Rigby on May 22, 2014, 02:04:00 amI'm not sure why they don't have pricing models for personal use. There's no better way to embed your brand into the public consciousness than put one in the hands of every hobbyist.

author: NYEngineer
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2014, 04:39:12 am
content: Quote from: FrankenPC on May 22, 2014, 03:05:35 amNot a bad idea. I would buy new (or recent used) Tek or Agilent if I could afford it in a heartbeat.However, Agilent does have a Used and "Premium Used" store on eBay where you can get things directly from them at a significant discount. The Premium Used stuff is essentially new - with all accessories, warranty, etc. I've "talked" (meaning, e-mailed) with their eBay rep and he's been very responsive.

author: JoeN
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2014, 07:11:38 am
content: Quote from: Rigby on May 22, 2014, 02:04:00 amOptioned bandwidth, optioned features that require hardware (digital channels, wavegen on Agilent), and optioned/segmented memory I can see. I am not so sure about pure software and I am doubly unsure that Rigol makes a mint at it. I can see Agilent and Tek not wanting to do it because I think they do make money, but I think Rigol does not because they don't seem to provide a lot of it. That is why I suggest Rigol.

author: Rigby
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2014, 07:40:17 pm
content: I was going to say something about allowing scope owners to write their own protocol decoders, but then I remembered about things like the BusPirate and free/open logic analyzer firmware, so now I'll probably just pick up some hardware that's a lot cheaper than a scope and do that work there.

author: rstoer
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2014, 07:13:12 pm
content: It looks like Keysight/Agilent has extended the "Ultimate Scope" promotion. I just saw this on their website:"Available April 1, 2014 – November 30, 2014"

author: ErikTheNorwegian
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 05, 2021, 09:58:55 am
content: Quote from: KD0RC on April 04, 2014, 02:24:11 amHi,i know this is a old tread, but here goes;What model did you move the horisontal knob to the multiselect spot?I got a fully hacked MSOX 6004A, got it cheap (had two of it, but sold one) now mainly for hobby use, and i presume i can do the same there? It fits right on the rotaryencoder?So i may order a new knob from Keysight..My hands are not as unshaky as they was before i got disabeld and in a wheelchair.. So it would make my day to have a larger knob there, get more accurate controll. The voice controll is great, and every scope should have it, this is the only scope that has a utilety for us handicaped users. The keyboard and mouse support are great tools to when fingers and hand coordination is not at is best. Great when both hands are ocupied with probes and as in my case just holding onto the tabel not falling of my chairErik

author: ErikTheNorwegian
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 05, 2021, 11:17:12 pm
content: Case solved..Found large rotary knob for Keysight 1000X 2000X 3000X 3000T xxx on Ebay.for just 15$ , pluss shipping. I wounder how much Keysight would charge...So now i can change the smal multifunction knob to a larger one for better accuracy.https://www.ebay.com/itm/352899670767?hash=item522a75a2ef:g:diEAAOSwuOJd~B7eErik

author: ErikTheNorwegian
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 20, 2021, 11:37:45 am
content: A large multifunction rotary knob in place! Much easier for my shaky hands to use it now!Let's start a campaign against small knobs in places that they're mostly used!

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 20, 2021, 07:10:45 pm
content: Quote from: ErikTheNorwegian on September 05, 2021, 11:17:12 pmThe issue is less ceost but whether they will deal with you. Last time I ordered a part from Agilent (MOSOX6000 rubber membrane button strip) many years ago, the cost was very reasonable, about £5 I think with free shipping.

author: ErikTheNorwegian
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 20, 2021, 09:18:48 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on September 20, 2021, 07:10:45 pmYes, but main concern is one big one . The time to get the part! 6-7 weeks. That was probe parts! That's way to slow shipping!The incredible package for a probe to BNC adapte for a MSOX6004A was "hilarious". The generous amount of plastic, it was difficult to find the part! A big, I mean BIG box .. look at the picture, the blue ray is the for seeing the dimensions. The part in the red circle! Environmentaly crazy these days. To be fear, I complained to the Norwegian distributor , 4test, and they sent it to Keysight. There came a message back from Keysight that shows that they listen. Relearning the staff that's packaging and shipping and will change to environmentaly better packaging materials.

author: YetAnotherTechie
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 20, 2021, 11:14:04 pm
content: Maybe they don't want packages to get lostIt's not as bad as HP shipping a mouse in a pallet...https://www.theregister.com/2008/07/23/enormouse/

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 20, 2021, 11:37:20 pm
content: Quote from: ErikTheNorwegian on September 20, 2021, 09:18:48 pmWell... better more packaging than less. Recently I got a piece of equipment back from a customer which they half-assembled themselves before shipping. Since it is a heavy item and the casing needs to be assembled for it to be structurally sound, it turned up a bit bend here and there because they wrapped it in a few layers of bubble wrap and used a thin box.