Profitability of component level repair on electronics? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / beginners

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 23, 2017, 08:28:20 pm
content: Is it profitable to complete component level repair on electronic devices to refurbish them and get them functioning again? Just looking to know the profit of such devices if you get them on places such as eBay as I have most of the tools. Cheers!

author: Rerouter
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2017, 09:14:28 pm
content: only for products where they are both electrically simpler, (e.g. 2 sided mixed throughole and smt), and there inherent value to repair or replace is a good margin above what you wish to charge.so say your customer walks in with a broken speaker amplifier, one that you have never seen before, there may be schematics online, there may not, you will need to ballpark what you think your time is going to be to fix it and tell him what that time will cost,There are a number of devices i do component level repair on at my work, we charge around $200 for the service on the premise that the devices cost about $500-$6000 to buy new, which means people stop arguing about the price, this pays for my time, most components we could conceive replacing, and still has a margin for if things go wrong, but this will depend on your end device.Never take a person at there word when you hear "yeah its just something simple", or "oh i forgot to mention can you also repair X while your in there" after you have quoted them. set down what your time is worth and make clear that if its simple they may pay less, but until you have it apart on the bench it costs full fare. and don't be afraid to ring with a new quotation if you open the device and see that it really is far worse than you where expecting, or admitting you cannot repair it if say its corroded to the point there is not much of the pcb left (seen this more than once).

author: retrolefty
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2017, 09:27:29 pm
content: For current general consumer electronics items I don't think there is much of a market for component repair service.However one way I know for a fact, because I did it as a hobby for awhile in the 95-05 time frame, and that was searching thrift stores, craigslist, e-bay for repairable vintage 70s stereo hi-fi equipment. The top models from companies like Marantz, sansui, kenwood, sony, etc fetch quite the $$$ on e-bay. A used repairable Pioneer SX-1980 I bought for $450 would probably fetch $2K at least these days.So maybe find a niche and learn the market and maybe there is an opportunity out there for you.

author: buck converter
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2017, 09:30:24 pm
content: I would recommend you watch Louis Rossmann's videos. He repairs Macs at the component level. He talks about how to run a successful repair business as well as how to repair stuff.https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCl2mFZoRqjw_ELax4Yisf6w

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2017, 10:31:04 pm
content: Quote from: buck converter on July 23, 2017, 09:30:24 pmYes, same suggestion.He said, that preatty much he 99% repairs Apple products because that is the overpriced sh*t that gets broken all the time, which is worth fixing.

author: Cliff Matthews
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 24, 2017, 12:38:06 am
content: My brother found a niche in vintage audio repair as well (although holding-out for $2k is a bit much).He turns over auctioned amps, monoblocks and receiversevery week. Most of his work is finishing, deoxit, dried caps, bad-biasing, fuses and bulbs.

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2017, 12:40:08 am
content: It's profitable is the device costs enough. Then you have the liability to worry about. Customer is also going to want insurance and tracking. And fast turn around. And they will want to call you every day.

author: Nusa
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2017, 12:53:23 am
content: Pick a device. Find out how much it sells for in used but working condition. Subtract what it costs you to obtain said device in broken condition. Is what's left worth your overhead, time, materials, and the effort of reselling it? Or in repairing it if it's a customer item. There's your answer.

author: Dubbie
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 24, 2017, 01:17:14 am
content: Quote from: NANDBlog on July 23, 2017, 10:31:04 pmIt's not really that. It's because Apple devices are:#1 Premium priced, so they aren't treated as disposable.#2 The product range is small compared to the units out there. Hence keeping the knowledge and spare parts around to fix them is possible.There are eleventy billion android devices out there. Keeping spare parts and the knowledge to repair them economically would be prohibitively difficult.

author: mgraves235
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: July 24, 2017, 04:54:03 am
content: I've worked in the office equipment repair trade for years, Including banking machines and medical equipment. It is no way economically feasible to component level repair anymore. When I started in this field, I was considered top dog because i could component level troubleshoot and repair, but as time went on, it became harder to make money doing that. Most pwbs in electronics now are SMD, which severely limits repair-ability in the field. power supply units are still through hole design on larger equipment, but they'be become so inexpensive that at my labor rate of $200 USD/hr, my time is better spent replacing entire units instead of repairing in the field. i always take the servicable units and repair them in the office as time allows and put them back in my truck inventory as Refurbished, as it saves the customer some money and down time. it isn't really even economically feasible to do that, and i rarely have available time on the clock, but it allows me to take a break and unwind occasionally. years ago, the majority of my customers were small offices and businesses, they've quit using multi thousand dollar equipment, and instead use cheap consumer grade stuff from big chain department stores, so it's cheaper the toss the whole unit than pay me to troubleshoot the problem. Nowadays, my client base is almots entirely big corporate accounts, large banks and hospitals. Situations where it's worth the expense to have local qualified techs handle their equipment. But it's inevitable that my industry is for the most part dying. I make a few bucks by servicing music gear, amplifiers and pedals on the side, but their isn't enough demand for that around here to be lucrative, just a few hobbyist who are dedicated. I was hoping that my industrial robotics experience would keep my employed in the future, but i've lost the ability to work due to health problems, so it's moot i guess... I love the idea of a repair cafe/ hackerspace. I wish we had one near here. Hanging out there all day helping and teaching people sounds like a perfect way to spend my time nowadays, but i digress...

author: Jeroen3
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2017, 07:08:48 am
content: Quote from: buck converter on July 23, 2017, 09:30:24 pmRanting on Apple being shit whilst it provides his livelihood. Don't take what he says, think about it first.Quote from: Dubbie on July 24, 2017, 01:17:14 amFTFYPeople that can afford an iPhone can afford to fix the shattered screen. People with Lumia's or Samsungs (not flagship) often are not able to afford the repair.

author: Ian.M
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2017, 08:25:45 am
content: As a rough rule of thumb, consumer electronics devices depreciate in value by about 33% per annum (excluding rare and./or collectable items). It is very difficult to justify the cost of a repair exceeding 50% of the residual or replacement value of an item. This breaks down at the lower end where the convenience of not having to source an exact replacement or make other changes to use an alternative replacement may persuade the customer to accept a repair quote higher than the replacement cost, but its nearly impossible to make a living doing small repairs at less than $50/item, unless you are very very good at doing them very quickly, have enough demand to keep you busy (but not so much that your turn-around time suffers) and specialise in a limited number of models so you can keep stock of all spares required for same day or while you wait service.Its *EXTREMELY* difficult to get started as a small business owner in the electronics repair trade in any 1st word country. The fixed costs and overheads of setting up a business are high, even if you work from home, and unless you are already near-expert in a high value niche market and have a good contact list, you'll face great difficulties growing the business fast enough to break even before you run out of your startup capital.

author: grumpydoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2017, 02:21:34 pm
content: Quote from: s1-84 on July 23, 2017, 08:28:20 pmThe quick answer is "almost certainly not"The longer answer is: well, it depends.There are probably two ways of approaching this - the first is to simply set up as a repair shop but you have to price your time for repairs realistically to make a living at it. Any hourly rate needs to take into account all the costs of running a business and the fact that you are not doing customer chargeable work all the time. Absolute minimum is going to be £75-100 per hour - figure on the average repair taking two hours.As has been pointed out you need to find a niche where the items you are repairing have sufficient inherent value that they are worth a £150-200 repair. As Rossman (and a lot of other small repair shops) demonstrate Apple products can be such a niche. They are expensive so worth repairing and official Apple rates are very high so independents can undercut Apple while still remaining profitable.But most consumer equipment is designed to be throw-away and even where it isn't modern manufacturing does not lend itself to repair - too many hard to solder and impossible to get hold of devices together with lack of component level service information. There are just too many variants as well (consider for a second just how many models of laptop and mobile phone have existed over the last 10 years). This is another advantage of doing Apple stuff. It's a monoculture with a comparatively tiny number of variants.There are other niches (again some have been suggested). High end audio might be one. I made a few bob in the early 90's repairing disco equipment and nearly got sucked into it as a career. The main difficulty is going to be getting the business up and running and breaking even.The other "model" might be to buy broken equipment and repair it for sale - I think this might be what you meant by saying " if you get them on places such as eBay ".This does have the advantage that you don't have customers breathing down your neck demanding to know when the repair will be done but otherwise as a business model this is basically doomed, especially if you intend to source your raw material on eBay.To buy stuff on eBay, fix it and flip it back out on eBay for a profit you need a mark-up of at least 2x and preferably 3x once you take eBay and PayPal fees and the cost of postage into consideration. And that does not count the cost of repair.There are at least two problems - one is that "for parts" items on eBay go for prices quite close to used items (on average, though I have seen items go formorethan typical "used" prices on occasion).The second is that suitable "stuff" does not come up often enough. Suppose you can flip an item back out at £500, eBay & PayPal will eat about £75 & lets say you were very lucky and bought the item at £200 and got the repair completed for £25 leaving you with £200. It sounds a lot but to get any sort of income you need to do that consistently twice a week for ever and eBay cannot supply you that consistently.That also assumes you can sell the item. I do occasionally buy stuff on eBay for repair (a few specific items that I have been able to turn a profit on in the past) but my prime goal is just the satisfaction of the repair. However my last quick repair which I thought would be easy to sell is still sitting there unsold after a month.In short you need a steady supply of broken high value items essentially for free which can easily and cheaply be repaired and then sell well on eBay - not going to happen.

author: CJay
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2017, 02:36:54 pm
content: Consumer level items, forget it, a TV bought five years ago will almost definitely not be worth repairing unless it's *really* special.Prosumer items, audiophile items, items with vintage and historical appeal, professional and industrial electronics, go for it, there's money to be made.The hardest thing about that is getting an 'in' to those markets.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 24, 2017, 06:39:16 pm
content: Thank you for the informative reply. I am primarily looking to repair products on the side mainly for the satisfaction of the repair as well as I wouldn't want something ending up in a landfill as well as some profit on the side is possible. Not looking to start it into a business, just something for fun that will improve my soldering skills. I guess I would have to look at a range of products or market that provides such products at a good resale value when working. Thank you!

author: hermit
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2017, 06:56:30 pm
content: You might want to factor in storage space for this endeavor. That allows you to collect multiples of items and scavenge parts.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 24, 2017, 07:54:40 pm
content: Quote from: hermit on July 24, 2017, 06:56:30 pmStorage space won't be a problem at all as I am simple looking to do this at a hobby scale purely for the satisfaction of repair (so it doesnt end up scrapped or in a landfill) and also to see if I can make a little bit profit off it

author: hermit
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2017, 07:58:39 pm
content: Quote from: s1-84 on July 24, 2017, 07:54:40 pmHoarding is a mandatory part of the hobby padawan.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 24, 2017, 08:04:18 pm
content: Quote from: hermit on July 24, 2017, 07:58:39 pmI should have plenty of space then for hoarding. Any ideas on a specific range of products I could do some research on?

author: RoGeorge
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2017, 08:27:57 pm
content: Component level debugging makes sense only for fun, hobby, or for a new designed board. Otherwise, no.Maybe yes, but only for very few special cases, or very expensive industrial equipment.As an example, at one of the companies I worked for, it was forbidden to repair any kind of embedded power supplies. The hourly wage was just too high for this kind of repairments, so the company will actually loose money. Just plug a new board instead.

author: PA4TIM
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2017, 09:54:57 pm
content: 3 years ago I started a a small repair business and I'm specialized in component level repair of measurement and calibration gear. See:http://schneiderelectronicsrepair.nl/?page_id=29And here : (www.pa4tim.nl) you see my gear and most of the home made gear I use. It started as a hobby.I can not and will not make a quote because most times if I know the problem the repair is almost done. But customers who know me and trust me (the most important thing in this niche market) sometimes give me a max allowable cost. Will it make me rich, no, but that is for a part that I can only work a few hours a day because medical reasons. On the other hand, I really love doing it and I'm good at it.If I did not already had most of the gear it would be almost impossible to start. Keeping your own gear optimal also cost time. And things like probes, soldering gear, testleads etc wear. Biggest problem now is space. Not only my gear but also that of customers, and things the boxes they send them in, and then there is parts.Most stuff is 10-20 years old and without service manuals or schematics. It is expensive stuff and the value for the owner is the calibration history they have. But it depends on the instrument, I will do not do complex things like a spectrum analyser without service doc. My first customer and the one who stimulated me to do it commercially has an industrial cal lab, so a lot of repairs I do are industry related. Often temperature calibrators, drywells, oil/water baths, thermometers, portable process calibrators, so now and then a flowmeter. But also volt/current/resistance calibrators (a Valhalla, a few Flukes, a Datron) scopes, scopemeters, megohm meters, (a lot of G&M secutests) Also the more exotic things like a 3 axis fluxmeter, a vibration detector, (and unrelated a week later) an amp for a vibration table. Or strange things like a potted pressure sensor, it only took me 3 hours to get the pcb out. Had to desolder and resolder it through the cable entrance.I also do repairs on things you can not power-up to measure like PCB's from some machine. I can test many components out of circuit because I have a lot of component testers (DIY made and commercial) and I know how to use it. I use things like a curvetracers, LCR meters and bridges, VNA, impedance bridges, a IC tester I build on the principle of a tubetester , signature analyse, fixtures for voltage regulators, opto's, several things to test transformers.I repair PCB damage (done the repair of a inner layer a few months ago), I can wind transformers on my home made semiautomatic winder. But I also do mechanical things like making a new shaft for a switch or potentiometer, a switch, a connector etc You see some things on my site.I do not, and will not do consumer electronics.Fred

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2017, 02:49:06 am
content: Car ECUs is one niche where component-level repair and even modification, may be somewhat profitable.

author: hermit
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2017, 03:41:12 am
content: Quote from: s1-84 on July 24, 2017, 08:04:18 pmI'm in the US so no. You might try and focus on things that interest you. That way you can't lose if it is hobby.

author: mikerj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2017, 10:27:20 am
content: Quote from: amyk on July 25, 2017, 02:49:06 amBut testing is very difficult.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 25, 2017, 04:13:42 pm
content: Quote from: mikerj on July 25, 2017, 10:27:20 amIs it? What a shame, seemed to be promising.

author: Dubbie
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 26, 2017, 03:22:11 am
content: Mainly because it is a subsystem of a much larger system that you don't necessarily have full control over.

author: senso
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2017, 11:09:19 am
content: And they all use different connectors, just in connectors you will/would need a fortune, getting pig-tails from a scrapyard might or might not be possible.You can make a somewhat decent engine simulator, but crank/cam position sensors are best done using real reluctor wheels strapped to dc/3 phase(rc engines are nice) motors, you will need gauge clusters, ignitions, keys, because immobilizers most likelly wont even let your ECU power on, deleting the immo is possible, but what if the problem with the ECU is in the immo?You will also need a fortune in ecu reader/programmers(unless you resort to ebay tools that might or might not work, or worse, not even support your ecu).But, you can make a living out of coding and setting immobilizers in botched cars, one guy was quoted 10k(and lots of new parts, an a month of waiting time) from Audi to re-code a pair of keys on a Q7, one guy did it in 3 hours, just be prepared to be in shaddy forums, google translating russian, and getting random tools from random people and install random software to use said tools.It as its niche, but you must be interested in it to get started, and dont hope to make rivers of money.Component level repair in consumer electronics, is a pain in the butt, cellphones are all crap, HATE to repair cellphones, bonus points for Apple crap.Laptops are a bit better, but, almost all forums where you could get bios dumps and schematics are going the paid way, ranging from 10-20€ a month to annual subscriptions over 2k €, at least some indian forums are still ok, almost all of them are as expected russian, google translate is your friend.There are a lot of easy repairs, because Windows 10 loves to fuck(its indeed the right word) with UEFI BIOS, so you get some laptops that are an easy BIOS flash and its done, some you chase some random smd mosfet that gave the ghost and now it wont detect AC power, to cracked ferrites that lead to dead usb ports.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2017, 11:10:39 am
content: Quote from: s1-84 on July 25, 2017, 04:13:42 pmWhat, you solder on the thing, just slap it back to the car and off you go? Hoping that you dont crash into the next tree?

author: CJay
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2017, 11:49:04 am
content: Quote from: NANDBlog on July 26, 2017, 11:10:39 amIt's not difficult to test ECUs.If that's a route you really want to explore there are companies who will sell you an ECU test fixture that will exercise and 'burn in' an ECU after repair but they are not cheap as they require significant investment in wiring harnesses, software and hardware updates to keep them up to date.Best to specialise in one make or even just one model and hope you can get the volume.

author: senso
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2017, 01:08:11 pm
content: In Europe, best bet might be Bosch, EDC16 and EDC17 are the most common, but there is a lot of difference between an EDC17 that comes from VAG and one that comes from a Toyota.