Can I run this welder on my home wiring? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / beginners

author: made2hack
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2015, 07:50:25 pm
content: Hello all,Here's the "datasheet" on a low-end chinese welding machine. The model is the first one, the 130B. Am I reading this data correct? That when welding, the output voltage drops to 23.2V and you are putting through anywhere from 60-130 amps?So, I could potentially be using from 1400W - 3020 W? So will I be Ok using this welder on a 230V / 16 Amp circuit?Also, what does 10% duty cycle mean in this case? What about Rated Input Capacity of 7Kva?

author: AF6LJ
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 10, 2015, 07:53:46 pm
content: The duty cycle refers to the amount of arc time VS the amount of resting time. (no Arc) That is a really low end welder...

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2015, 08:04:21 pm
content: Quote from: trs80 on December 10, 2015, 07:50:25 pmThe technology used will have an influence on how your supply manages the load, inverter types are the most efficient.10% DC is very low, it might imply this is just a transformer type welder, so yes you must modify your use to stay within it's ratings.In saying this, standards specify the max welder temp rise permissible and even 1C above a duty cycle range will make the rating drop to the next range down, in this case 10% @ FULL power.I'd be using only 12G, 2.5mm rods in this one.

author: made2hack
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2015, 08:20:46 pm
content: Quote from: AF6LJ on December 10, 2015, 07:53:46 pmIt is without a doubt the cheapest one they list.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2015, 08:21:03 pm
content: Quote from: trs80 on December 10, 2015, 07:50:25 pmThat's the number you want to pay attention to.You might not even get an arc going on a B16.

author: made2hack
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2015, 08:22:43 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on December 10, 2015, 08:04:21 pmIf that's the case, can I just use a transformer that I wire myself for 24V and with some heavy enameled wire?I have to go back and watch Post Apocalyptic Inventor's video on the subject of welder transformers.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2015, 08:24:38 pm
content: Quote from: trs80 on December 10, 2015, 08:22:43 pmWelding requires a limited current or you'll just blow stuff up. They're not just plain transformers, they use a shunt to restrict output (usually).Also, you need some very, very heavy wire to handle 60A+ in a transformer (and that's why the duty cycle sucks).

author: moya034
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2015, 08:32:05 pm
content: Quote from: trs80 on December 10, 2015, 07:50:25 pmDuty cycle, (at least with Welding Machines) refers to the amount of time you can be welding constantly in a 10 minute time period. For example, 10% duty cycle would mean you can weld for 1 minute, and then you have to let the machine rest for 9 minutes before you use it again. 10% is a very low duty cycle. You want something more like 20-40%. Using less power will increase the duty cycle as opposed to if you had the machine maxed out.Example, my Idealarc is rated for a 30% duty cycle at 250 amps. If I am running a 3/32" rod at 80-90 amps, I'm pretty darn close to a usable 100% duty cycle.16 amp circuit may be a little light... My Lincoln IdealArc is rated for a 50 amp circuit, but I use it on a 40 amp circuit. That said, I never max out the machine, so it doesn't pull the full amount of current and has never tripped the breaker. You might shoot to install a 30 amp circuit at minimum.

author: moya034
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2015, 08:34:52 pm
content: Oh, and I almost forget, don't buy Chinese Welding Machines. You will only be sorry and wind up with a piece of shit that will leave you wondering if these bad welds are the fault of you or the machine.You can get really good machines like Lincoln, Miller, Hobart on the used market at good prices, because the economy is slow and people aren't building stuff they way used to. Check out craigslist.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2015, 09:18:04 pm
content: Quote from: trs80 on December 10, 2015, 08:22:43 pmYou need output current control.In the spec sheet it's a heavy pig, why not consider something like this?http://www.aliexpress.com/item/welding-200A/32226258912.html?spm=2114.01020208.3.1.3mntsO&ws_ab_test=searchweb201556_4_79_78_77_82_80_62,searchweb201644_0,searchweb201560_45.5 Kg complete shipped.

author: Floyo
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2015, 09:30:46 pm
content: Quote from: moya034 on December 10, 2015, 08:34:52 pmSeconding this, I started with one of those bottom of the barrel welders, it was soooo awful. The dutycycle of 10% is rather bad, I cannot express how frustrating it is to be five electrodes into a welding job and have the "overheat" light come on, which means you get to wait for like 30 minutes before you get another single electrodes worth of welding. Either look for something second-hand, like an oldschool professional welder, or a decent brand inverter. Those have the advantage of being super light and tiny, and they start an arc really easily. Also overspec your machine a bit, none but the biggest welders will run on full blast all day long (those actually have watercooling in the torches etc), and being able to use bigger diameter electrodes is also nice.When I got sick of that crappy welder I bought a Lincoln MIG unit, much bigger and more expensive, but so much better built, it just always works. I did have problems with the breaker tripping due to the inrush current on the higher settings. I replaced the breaker for the welding circuit by an oldschool ceramic fuse, which doesn't blow because of inrush. It depends on your local codes if you can actually do that. Getting modern breakers with different breaking characteristics is also possible. All this is more important for a MIG welder though, since an MMA unit does not switch off the transformer when you put away the handpiece.

author: Fank1
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2015, 10:50:33 pm
content: Max rated input on 220 is 7 KVA or nearly 32 amps.You would need a 50 A circuit to run safely.

author: moya034
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2015, 11:38:42 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on December 10, 2015, 09:18:04 pmSo, for Wire Feed welding you actually need a Constant Voltage Welding Power Supply. TIG (GMAW) and Stick (SMAW) both use Constant Current Welding Power Supplies.

author: briselec
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2015, 12:55:35 am
content: Quote from: Fank1 on December 10, 2015, 10:50:33 pmPlease rephrase that. Safety has nothing to do with the size of the load matching the current carrying capacity of the circuit. What you meant to say was it would require a 32 amp circuit to run at full amps without tripping the circuit protection device.

author: john_p_wi
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2015, 02:26:31 pm
content: Quote from: moya034 on December 10, 2015, 11:38:42 pmYour nomenclature is not quite correct. TIG = GTAW, MIG = GMAW. GOOD TIG welders generally offer high frequency starts to facilitate an easier arc start along with a variable frequency balancing "pushing or pulling" the arc balance to help with pulling impurities out and the amount of heat that the tungsten electrode will be subjected to / penetration. "AC" is used for aluminum."DC" is generally used for TIG welding steel.CURRENT is the main adjustable controlling factor for wire / electrode / tungsten size and material thickness whether it is AC/DC, SMAW, GTAW or GMAW.

author: moya034
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2015, 02:29:49 pm
content: You are correct that I mixed up my nomenclature, but I can guarantee you on any WIRE FEED type welding, you are controlling voltage, not current. Only the bigger/better machines will acutally calibrate the "HEAT" control in volts.For example, check out this multiprocess welder:https://www.millerwelds.com/equipment/welders/multiprocess/xmt-350-vs-multiprocess-weldersYou will see it can be calibrated in Volts for Wire Feed, or Amps for stick/TIG.For a more detailed explanation, see this:http://www.thefabricator.com/article/arcwelding/arc-welding-101-cv-or-cc-what-s-the-difference-

author: john_p_wi
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2015, 03:02:45 pm
content: This is an overly generality and simplistic comment on the MIG welders. MIG welders useVoltageto establish the arc, voltage is determined by wire size and wire feed speed.Currentis what actually does the welding.I'll admit, been a number of years 15+, since I worked as a supervisor in a mainly GTAW production facility. I'm sure technology has changed to simplify equipment setting and operations. The guys were welding 0.032 / 0.040 in SS ribbon to 1/4" thick x 3" inconel buss bar all day long / 2 shifts.

author: moya034
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2015, 03:12:37 pm
content: Quote from: john_p_wi on December 11, 2015, 03:02:45 pmCURRENT is determined by wire size and speed in a MIG welder. The Voltage is controlled by the user, which defines the arc length, which controls whether the transfer mode is short circuit, globular, or spray.In Stick and TIG, the user sets the Current, which is determined based on the diameter and flux type of electrode. The voltage is going to change based on the arc length which is controlled by the user manually.The machine settings have not changed in 15 years, nor how they work (Except for square wave technology). CV is used for MIG, and CC for stick and TIG. There is no over simplification here, that is how it works. I challenge you to produce a document from a reputable source that says otherwise.

author: Kleinstein
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2015, 03:47:01 pm
content: Though higher than the nominal 16 A rating for essentially all 230 V outlets, the welder should work an most household outlets. The at the low 10% duty cycle normal B16 fuses allow for something like 30 A for a while.It won't help very much if the welder would permit a higher duty cycle, als the fuse and wiring might not. For larger parts you may want a welder that runs from a more powerfull 400 V (3 phase) outlet. It depends on the fuses used, so there are chances to trip a fuse that reacts relatively fast.

author: moya034
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2015, 03:52:08 pm
content: If upgrading the circuit capacity is not possible, then your best bet would to get an engine driven welding machine. No electric power needed.(Unfortunately, multiprocess engine driven machines are expensive, and you will still have to purchase a separate wire feeder)

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2015, 03:55:37 pm
content: Quote from: Kleinstein on December 11, 2015, 03:47:01 pm~200s thermal, assuming it doesn't trip magnetically, which is highly likely. From experience, a 2-3kVA transformer will trip a B16 quite easily.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2015, 04:14:35 pm
content: It will basically be usable to weld up anything that you can do with a single 2.5mm welding rod, without overheating or tripping the mains breaker. While the circuit is rated for 16A, it typically will be protected by a 20A breaker, which will generally not trip for the time it takes to use up the single rod.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2015, 04:20:51 pm
content: Quote from: SeanB on December 11, 2015, 04:14:35 pmThat would be a 20A circuit, not a 16A circuit.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2015, 06:58:05 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on December 11, 2015, 04:20:51 pmHere in South Africa a socket outlet is nominally rated at 16A maximum, but the cable in the wall is rated for 20A, and is protected by a 20A circuit breaker. Typically you have 2 socket outlets per breaker, in a single outlet box, though you can daisy chain a near unlimited number of sockets on one breaker providing you do not exceed length of cable for voltage drop. Typical use would be adjacent rooms having a single breaker feeding the socket outlets in the room, mounted back to back on the wall, and the kitchen might have 2 or more breakers for outlets depending on the size, but they normally are very frugal socket wise, typically one per room in the house.In Australia/NZ I do understand they can either be 16A or 20A outlets, but even there the 16A outlet will still be able to handle a short period of welding using a 2.5mm welding rod, as there you are between 80-110A or so, so the input power draw will be lower than 30A.Admittedly a welding plant is the only home use item that can draw much more current than a single standard ( for any country) socket can supply, but they have such a low duty cycle in home use ( 30s on, 10 minutes weld prep, slag removal, setup of weld) so are usable without needing to have a dedicated high current socket and cord set for the welder, which you do need with proper high duty cycle welding equipment that is rated for near continuous duty welding at max power.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2015, 06:59:34 pm
content: Quote from: SeanB on December 11, 2015, 06:58:05 pmSo, SA has firestarter wiring regulations. This is not typical.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2015, 07:12:52 pm
content: Quote from: SeanB on December 11, 2015, 06:58:05 pmTypical domestic 3 pin outlet here is only 10A rated, the outlet that is, but often via a 20A MCB when 2.5mm + cable is installed. We do now have another 3 pin outlet, 16A rated that has a wider Earth pin, plugs for which do not fit the 10A outlet, however 10A plugs do fit the 16A outlet. Makes sense IMO.High draw appliances now come with these 16A plugs so they can't be connected to the 10A outlets that in domestic installations "mostly" are only served via 1.5mm cabling.

author: dan.soethe
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2015, 09:54:13 pm
content: 230V x 16A = 3,680WSent from my SM-G900P using Tapatalk

author: moya034
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2015, 10:15:56 pm
content: Quote from: dan.soethe on December 11, 2015, 09:54:13 pmWell, 230V x 16A = 3680 VA, which is fine for an ampacity calculation. The wattage used may be different (AC circuit) and then you get into power factor, and that's the point I'm no longer qualified to talk about the subject.I'm hoping someone will chime in, as I've seen welding machines that have the option of adding power factor correction capacitors, and I've always wanted to know how that works, why or why not I would want them.. and when I've asked people who I considered experts, I found they don't know anything, and my own research has been confusing at best.

author: dan.soethe
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2015, 12:16:26 am
content: Power factor is probably, useful for power distribution. But for end users, power factor should be close to 0°.So VAs are aprox. the same as Watts.Sent from my SM-G900P using Tapatalk

author: briselec
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2015, 02:10:38 am
content: In some places the electricity supplier charges industrial and commercial users more depending on their power factor. Not something to worry about for domestic use.

author: moya034
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2015, 02:51:53 am
content: I'm aware it's a non issue for domestic use, but i'd like to be informed about power factor in relation to welding machines in industrial situations for my own edification.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2015, 04:39:08 am
content: Quote from: Monkeh on December 11, 2015, 06:59:34 pmMost electrical fires here are started by the usual things, stove left on with a pot of oil, cheap imported non approved electrical appliance failing in flames, or the most common shack wiring where any semblance of safety is not even considered, bare conductors strung haphazardly, fusing by the substation fuse only, no breakers and night illumination by the red glowing wires.

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2015, 07:32:23 am
content: My WSE200P 200A TIG welder is rated 220V 20A 4.5Kva and i run it on a normal 16A wall outlet.I don't weld anything at 200A though, so it never draws that much.China welders have a tendency to blow up if you run them close to the max output.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2015, 08:03:10 am
content: My buzzbox runs most of the time between 80-110A, while the inverter welder is often used at around 60-80A for about the same job. Buzzbox also doubles as a car battery booster, using a half wave rectifier diode ( an old generic press fit one on a big block of plate as heatsink and a 40A thermal breaker) so I can do a quick battery boost if needed when flat. Not efficient, and definitely heats up more, but does work for a single start after 2 minutes.

author: mikerj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2015, 03:11:01 pm
content: Quote from: moya034 on December 10, 2015, 08:34:52 pmAs with everything there are good and bad MIG welders that come out of China. In the UK the "Clarke" branded welders are reasonably well made and good value, I've had a 150 Amp Clarke machine for 15 years or so and it has seen a lot of use.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2015, 04:50:54 pm
content: should i recommend the wet and heavy transformer welding? it has nothing just a big 30kg transformer with 3 output, and cooling oils... very little can go wrong very little to take care if something wrong... my cheap and china brand has been years with me, few time modded the broken rusted wiring inside. with china "dry" and light weld machine i've heard many damage stories and i'm not sure how to fix that if i have one...