Advice sought on handheld oscilloscopes for automotive work - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / beginners

author: original_chisel
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: July 15, 2019, 02:12:01 am
content: Hi.Saving for a scope for automotive work and would welcome input from anyone who has experience with the lower cost handhelds - lower cost with respect to Flukes.I've been reading here for years for personal enjoyment so I know the site doesn't have as large a contingent of automotive electronic enthusiasts as trade specific forums. Still I'm hopeful for enlightening responses.I've read practically every post on the subject here and know that recent suggestions have included a new tablet scope. I'd really like to avoid things that I have to tap and squeeze. it doesn't seem the tablet is automotive specific. Is it an advantage over a handheld?Still, I'm yet to read of a handheld (except the Flukes) which has software preconfigured for vehicle troubleshooting. Laptops don't seem to do well in bright sunlight and with a Pc based system, one would have to tote that with the data box and accessories. New Fluke handhelds are out of the question.The issue is what is enough for automotive work as its so hard to separate adequate fromad-vertisements. I'd be more comfortable with the hand-held form factor than with the others but don't have a closed mind on it.Bottom line: Would a moderately priced two channel handheld scope, not preconfigured for automotive work be too challenging for a beginner?Kind regards.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2019, 03:24:02 am
content: I bought a Fluke 98 when they came out many years ago and used it for many years. I still have it. I also got a 98 Series II later on, which I've sold. In many ways, they are still a very good option if you can find one at a reasonable price with all of the leads and accessories. There are other options from the various automotive tool manufacturers like Snap-on, but I never really liked those--they seemed dumbed down to make it easier for non-EE types to use.Three things you should consider.First, as far as being a tough, reliable, robust field instrument, the Fluke 98s are pretty good, but they are pretty low-spec as DSO's go. The Picoscopes have much better specs and pretty good auto-specific features but aren't as portable and you need the tablet or laptop.Second, with improvements in modern automotive electronics, and diagnostic systems, there's less and less need for oscilloscopes. It's nice to have, but in the end I wasn't hauling out nearly as much as I did in the early 90s when automotive electronics were evolving rapidly with quite a few shortcomings along the way.Third, there is a learning curve to these things. I got pretty good at setting up the trigger on the Fluke 98--and it has some pretty good features in that regard--and it is good enough to find things like cracked ABS tone wheels or intermittent Hall effect sensors. My goal was to try and set the scope up so that it would beep when a malfunction occurred--and I could often do it. The thing is in 1990, a cracked tone wheel was a terrible problem to diagnose because it would often cause very intermittent erratic ABS activation with no trouble codes set. Nowadays, the electronics are smarter and will give you a much better indication of what you are looking for.So the bottom line is that while more modern scopes will have much better specs as far as sampling rate, record length and so on, if I had to fix a car and needed a scope, I'd drag out my old 98 and charge the batteries before almost any other option. Just try and find a decent one with all of the extras--the leads and stuff are more valuable than the scope itself. And if it doesn't turn out to be the best option for you, they hold their value enough that you can flip it and try something else.

author: original_chisel
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: July 15, 2019, 04:22:48 pm
content: Bdunham7, thanks for your kind response.Fluke's quality is legendary and I would not hesitate to purchase one if I could afford it.You likely live and work in the USA and would know first hand what the auto manufacturers' trends are. Still, you must be a very brave man to state “There's less and less need for oscilloscopes. “You'd be broken at the wheel for saying this on any of the trade forums. Those fellows appear to live and swear by these things! It is useful to hear a view to the contrary.In my spot, vehicles are either used JDM or new Japanese and Korean imports assembled specifically for this region. Models with smart state-of-the-art electronics would hardly reach me.I'd be looking at 1990s to 2000+ where the scope perhaps would be of greater value.Consider also, that to get data, wiring diagrams et al for these vehicles is as easy as herding domestic cats!I willingly embrace the learning curve. This is not tinkering (an otherwise enjoyable pastime).This is serious bread-and-butter matters. It helps that I actually enjoy electronics though not very good at it.You make excellent points – never thought of most of them and I'm obliged.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2019, 08:49:53 pm
content: Where are you located? And what trade forums would lynch me for downplaying the role of the DSO? iATN? It's true my USA perspective may not be as applicable to a different situation. And keep in mind the my observation about using the scope less and less has two factors--the first obviously being better diagnostics and scan data, but also better knowledge about failures generally. The scope served as an important tool in learning about automotive electronics in the first place.

author: original_chisel
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: July 16, 2019, 05:23:19 pm
content: I'm in the Lesser Antilles.Again I respect your views as a professional. You are in the right location to be on the leading edge.While not forums per se, if I'm allowed to post the following and the links actually work, this is a small sample of views that differ from your own.https://youtu.be/cLOFxmEXrWs?t=3822Perhaps there is no right/wrong here. Isn't it more a question of what work actually shows up at the dealership, at the independent shop or such?

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2019, 08:02:25 pm
content: As I understood the question you posed, it's not whether more equipment is useful, it's what would be a good investment now and what do you absolutely need--right?I have had multiple scopes (including the Snap-on Counselor way back in the 80's) and many scan tools over the years. I still have about 10 oscilloscopes lurking about. I could have had more, I could have had less, I suppose. Sometimes they make a job easier, sometimes (as is claimed here) they make it possible. I also had a complete machine shop, including a crankshaft grinder--that's $100K alone--and you can't regrind a crankshaft without one, right? I'm all for tools, but as a devil's advocate and adviser to one on a limited budget, I'd point out that you can just buy crankshafts if need be, and in the case of the Honda 3.5L (the second video) I'd point out that a) he never actually determined the exact cause of the failure and b) he could have solved the problem by simply insisting on redoing the previous repairs with all-OEM parts. I'm not criticizing his approach in any way, I'm just questioning whether you are ready to go down that path--or if you need to. You said this was a bread-and-butter issue, and I can tell you that while I've done my share of "superhero" repairs, fixing the ones that nobody else could, that isn't the path to riches or even business success. You can learn from these adventures, but I'd be cautious getting into someone else's messes. I certainly respect you for not wanting to be a parts-thrower, but don't get sucked into cleaning up after them after they've emptied the customer's wallet. I don't know your local clientele, but I did know someone that lived and worked on one of those islands that told me that customers were generally pretty cheap and didn't appreciate large repair bills.To do this particular type of diagnosis, you really need a PC-based unit and the Picoscope auto-specific ones are the best. If you already had something like a Fluke 98, a basic Picoscope would more than suffice, as their feature set doesn't overlap that much. The Fluke would not be good for this type of work because of it's limited number of points on the screen. I did it before the PC based scopes came out, but it's tricky. You might also look at other low-cost PC based units--I think Hantek has some pretty cheap models. You can never have too many channels, though.

author: MarkF
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2019, 11:47:19 pm
content: I have no experience with these but they may fit the bill.Forum discussion:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/micsig-tablet-oscilloscope-tbook-mini-to1000/Review:

author: original_chisel
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: July 19, 2019, 07:59:00 pm
content: MarkF, thanks for posting this one. I'm going over it thoroughly.Bdunham7, Sage advice of which I take cognizance.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 19, 2019, 08:28:54 pm
content: You might want to start here. I had no idea these had gotten so cheap. Not a tablet, but it get's you a long way down the road for very few bucks.https://www.amazon.com/Pico-PicoScope-2204A/dp/B00GZMRZ3M/ref=sr_1_3?keywords=picoscope&qid=1563567999&s=gateway&sr=8-3