China undercuts Taiwanese based Goodwill by 50% - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 16, 2011, 06:03:26 am
content: http://www.eetimes.com/electronics-news/4218760/China-puts-the-squeeze-on-TaiwanQuoteDave.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 16, 2011, 06:20:37 am
content: That's typical of a problem I see in the USA all the time. People will always pick the cheapest thing they can lay their hands on, regardless of the quality, or even whether it works effectively.

author: Kiriakos-GR
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 16, 2011, 06:40:16 am
content: Quote from: IanB on August 16, 2011, 06:20:37 amI will disagreeThe teardown reviews made by Dave, they do attract allot of interest, mostly from people who do care about quality.Not all people are effected by this principal equally, but if you love and respect your work,you will continuously seek quality.About China and every corner of this planet, some corporations owned by relatives of the government officials,they always have some special handling speaking about finance / banking / exports / promotion.But no matter what they will do, if they do not invest about customer care, there is no way to make a big bang about international sales.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 16, 2011, 06:44:32 am
content: Visibly identical Clones make it that much harder, many have the same nameplate. And unfortunately I can see many of the legitimate distributors using this as a reason to maintain uncompetitive margins. Just look at EPSON marketing.More than one of the teardowns of unsafe product hear have had a legitimate brand label on the case.Equally worrying in Australia is the regime for validating compliance and approvals. It's not hard to place whatever specification you like on a data sheet and it's not hard to spoof compliance marks. It seems nothing is even type tested now. A paperwork jungle with no one asking questions before someone is injured.The really dangerous thing here is that in sending Taiwan broke the end result could well be industry mayhem.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 16, 2011, 07:04:24 am
content: Quote from: Kiriakos-GR on August 16, 2011, 06:40:16 amBut I'm describing what I see, here in the USA, where I am. It's no good disagreeing when you are not here to see what I see.It's true that some people will try to pick quality, but most will not. I have seen products pushed out of the US market by a flood of cheap crap that sets people's price expectations lower than any reasonable quality can compete with.Only just today, for example, I have noticed that Cables Unlimited (http://www.cablesunlimited.com) have recently gone out of business. They sold reasonably priced products that had decent quality and actually worked. But doubtless they have been forced out of business by lower priced competing products of dubious quality that may not work.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 16, 2011, 07:19:24 am
content: Quote from: IanB on August 16, 2011, 07:04:24 amI think many would choose quality and reputation if they could but sadly we all face cost pressures, most have a continual battle with the bean counters and the perpetual demand to produce more with less resources. That is an environment that is allowing so much of this junk to be sold. But yes I'd also agree that there are many just to stupid to recognise quality or even medium term cost effectiveness,QuoteSame situation here and it's a worrying trend, but while I blame idiot consumers and clueless management, I also see much of the established supplier base being equally responsible. You have to deliver what the market demands, in not being responsive to price pressure at the bottom end western manufacturers have allowed even cheaper substandard junk to gain a foothold. (and at times market dominance).

author: Bored@Work
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 16, 2011, 07:22:20 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on August 16, 2011, 06:03:26 amThey are probably better known asGW Instekin the West. We recently lost some respect for them when they botched a repair job. The main reason to buy from them was they are supposed to offer some kind of service. It turned out they weren't better than their mainland Chinese cousins.QuoteInteresting. It was always a problem to buy GW Instek stuff within the EU, because they don't have an authorized distributor in the EU. At least they couldn't name on last time I asked. They have one in Switzerland (which isn't part of the EU). Distributors in the EU either resell instruments from the Swiss distributor or from the gray market.The problem is that GW Instek's "lifetime" warranty only applies if you buy from an authorized distributor. That means you have to import from Switzerland. And in case of a problem you have to send the instrument back to Switzerland, because GW Instek handles all repairs via their distributors. A distributor then sends the instrument back to Taiwan, or doesn't (as in our case ...) but attempts to perform a "certified" repair under the "guidance" of GW Instek.Well, as we learned, when things go wrong there, GW Instek goes into hibernation, just like any of their Chinese cousins when it comes to service and support.From that point of view Chinese companies going after GW Instek distributors means cheaper instruments with the same lousy service. In other words, it is almost an improvement.QuoteSounds like EE-Times misspelledRigolhere, or does anyone know of a T&M company called "Regal"?

author: rf-loop
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 16, 2011, 07:45:07 am
content: This Taiwan question is not so simple.Lot of Taiwanese companies use mainland China just as for cheap manufacturing. Lot of products (half produced etc) trawel between mainland and Taiwan island. Trafic is heavy. Some product may even travel once to mainland, next back to Taiwan for some small installation (secured components), then next agen back to other place in mainland etc. Some Taiwanese companies do lot of money using some cheap factories in mainland... mainland peoples get nothing. This mugging is nearly end of road.Next possible (develop) step is "one china" including this Taiwan island.Maybe even some Taiwanese hope this but then there is USA (military) politics. Look world map and you know why USA want keep this Taiwan as a potential base for U.S. Half of whole Taiwan question is U.S. propaganda. U.S. Taiwan downright extortion but hidden with highly secret.Later (my prognose) Taiwan is peacefully integrating to mainland China.All states and territories, including Taiwan province, will have to stop the pillaging of China.It is going becouse China need slowly stop money loaning to U.S. becouse U.S. is more bad situation as we many times think example Greege in European union.Separated Taiwan province do not give any good to anybody but only for U.S. military strategy.-ugh-Sorry this, I promise never agen talk so heavy politics.

author: ciccio
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 16, 2011, 09:10:54 am
content: I've some GW INSTEK or Good Will labeled instruments, and I've been satisfied with them.About 20 years ago one 40 MHz analog scope developed an intermittent fault.It was out of warranty, and was bought from a distributor that had gone out-of-business, so I contacted Good Will in Taiwan describing the fault. They mailed me (at no cost) spare parts, some suggestion for fault-finding and complete schematics, that allowed me to repair the scope.I don't know if some of their competitors will offer the same service, even now, or if another company's scope will be serviced in Europe, and not in China.

author: rf-loop
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 16, 2011, 09:23:47 am
content: Quote from: ciccio on August 16, 2011, 09:10:54 amNice.I know one people who years ago buy chinese made some lamp with dimmer. Later dimmer board have some fail. He go to store where he buy this. No one know anything and "product stopped years ago" no spare parts, no service.But this guy find small information about company who have make it in China. He find some people name, address and only phone number in internet but no any email or sides.Well, he think he try. He draw small picture by hand abiut this card. Then he enclose some USD inside letter. He send (from europe) this letter with drawing and english explanation to this address. He think, some dollars, no matter.I do not know exactly how long time but some x month. He get letter from China.Inside soft letter was this right card and Company boss personal letter and also some explanation how to change it. Wow, and also some kind of apologize abiut fail. Also they promise what all help he need with this company products you are welcome to ask.chinese...

author: nukie
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 16, 2011, 10:26:55 am
content: Try that with Rigol. My DS5102CE, a generation earlier than the popular rigol DS1052 has some serious user-interface bug. I contacted Rigol for the latest firmware, all I got was "This product has been discontinued". And that it was like two months since it was discontinued.On the other hand, Uni-T has great supportas demonstrated by a few members on this forum. I also have first hand experience with them, they really do care about their customers.China under cutting other countries for now it is, until their workers wages starts to increase. GW Instek makes great products and quite a innovative company. I hope they pull through.Quote from: ciccio on August 16, 2011, 09:10:54 am

author: rf-loop
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 16, 2011, 10:40:08 am
content: Quote from: nukie on August 16, 2011, 10:26:55 amThis is one reason why I stop all business with brand name Rigol.And this continue as long as they customer care is nearly as zero even if (some) products are semi good.Also this all hassle with "overseas" customer care where nobody do not know what is Rigol official things and what are some distributor things. Confused also with rigol/rigolna case. Who is who and who is responsible about aftersales customer care. maybe really nobody. Just like talk to walls. Why I knock my head to wood for nothing -- there are other Chinese companies. They Rigol and some others do not understand that competite only with price is ending road. Why they can not learn anything from companies who have make good brand tens of years. They give service manuals, they listen customers, they do not afraid copycats as paranoic - and they win.

author: Bored@Work
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 16, 2011, 12:51:20 pm
content: Quote from: ciccio on August 16, 2011, 09:10:54 amThe only "schematics" we got from GW Instek was showing the connectors of the power supply. The only suggestion for fault-finding was to measure the voltages on those connectors. Since the voltages are silkscreened on the power supply PCB the "schematics" weren't really needed for that. Oh, and we got some "lecture" about their "lifetime" warranty.When the power supply turned out to be OK, GW Instek insisted the instrument needed to be sent back via the distributor. Although we repeatedly asked for a direct contact with a service center and the availability of spare parts. But no, it must be sent via the distributor, no exception, no spare parts.GW Instek went into hibernation mode when things went south with the distributor, similar to what one would expect from a typical rubbish Chinese manufacturer. I had GW Instek higher on my list than typical Chinese rubbish manufacturers. Not any more. They are just the same - manufacturers of throw-away equipment. Only that you pay more for service you don't get.I say it is a good thing when Chinese rubbish manufacturers now undercut GW Instek rubbish by 50%.

author: ciccio
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 16, 2011, 03:02:32 pm
content: Quote from: BoredAtWork on August 16, 2011, 12:51:20 pmSorry, I was reporting something that happened about 20 years ago.Maybe they have changed politics, or people, or maybe the size of the company has increased.Fortunately I had no more needs for their services.

author: saturation
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 16, 2011, 03:33:56 pm
content: From the article, I presume they use Instek as a comparative benchmark for Chinese labeled T&M gear, since they've been around for 30+ years, have an established reputation, and have some of their finances publicly available through the Taiwan stock exchange. Based on their Capitalization of earnings and dividends in these reports, they are down from 2008, which was up from 2007. Since all of industry was hit by the economy of 2008, that's actually a good show as they profited when everyone was down.http://emops.tse.com.tw/emops_all.htmEnter Code 2423Cash dividends ~ profit, and they have been distributed every year for 5 years, although lower in the past 2. Note these are Taiwanese dollars, to US is 1 : 0.04.If the Rigol et. al. clan were eroding Instek markets purely, it should be hurting year after year. Assuming the stock reports aren't false, I can only presume the growth of the Rigol et. al group are also taking markets that Instek hasn't penetrated.

author: FreeThinker
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 16, 2011, 04:19:40 pm
content: Quote from: BoredAtWork on August 16, 2011, 07:22:20 amI have an Isotech scope (RS badged engineered) and it is a GW Instek scope, so do they not qualify for authorised distributor status? RS are just as bad when it comes to support as once a product is delisted support seems to dry up too. No service manuals or schematics, only 'This product is discontinued'. Managed to track down a similar product (from GWInstek) and down load those , but you don't have to be Chinese to give PPS (piss poor service)

author: Bored@Work
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 16, 2011, 04:58:05 pm
content: Quote from: FreeThinker on August 16, 2011, 04:19:40 pmI don't know, you have to ask GW Instek. I guess there is a reason they sell a badge-engineered version.QuoteSure. But Chinese can write the book on piss-poor service. And a supplement. And teach lessons. And make the movie. And start a franchise.

author: Kiriakos-GR
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 16, 2011, 09:18:35 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on August 16, 2011, 07:04:24 amOk lets exchange of what we seeIn Greece every Micky Mouse DMM or electrical device, comes from China with large fonts of " American technology " lots of red and white stripes in the corners of the package, and it looks like that those Chinese they beg to dress up like an American so to attract the European who has poor education, and that he will trust the external package because of the large American flag on it.Does this Micky Mouse stuff do sales ? Yes but very few, its products found mostly in the baskets in the street, and in very few shops.Amazingly UNI-T does not move a finger , no gifts no advertising, no large scale web promotion,with just a very basic in quality web site, with just few friendly technicians answering the emails from people who need help,they managed to do sales , and the good word goes by mouth to mouth.They operate so silently, but even so, they are in a road of success.In Greece the 80% goes for quality, why ? simply because Greece is the cross road of east with the west world.And the Greeks are very trained buyers.My own father trained me to appreciate quality, I will do the same to my own kids.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 16, 2011, 10:47:38 pm
content: Quote from: Kiriakos-GR on August 16, 2011, 09:18:35 pmHell yeah they have managed to buy millions more than they can ever repay.

author: Kiriakos-GR
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 16, 2011, 10:58:04 pm
content: Speak with the wall, that's the only one who has ears for you.

author: FreeThinker
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 17, 2011, 10:54:13 am
content: Quote from: Kiriakos-GR on August 16, 2011, 10:58:04 pmWhile I agree with what you are saying, your answer is simple - DON'T read him!. You can (apparrantly) put him on your twit list in your profile and his responses will not appear, your choice, Just play nice and enjoy the forum

author: saturation
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 17, 2011, 12:25:23 pm
content: An example of Goodwill potential fate is the fate of Xytronic. It has a reputation, but over the years its been diluted by their OEM model and pressure from the Hakko work alikes like Aoyue and others.Their stations still are good, but reports of their quality control is mixed so I'd only consider it a buy if you examine it personally to QC its build and return it to the dealer if it bombs.http://www.xytronic.com/corp.htmhttp://www.xytronic-usa.com/shop/In their case, they also compete with folks like Hakko, Weller, Oki, JBC, Ersa for a product that in general, has very long lifespans.

author: Kiriakos-GR
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 17, 2011, 02:11:54 pm
content: Quote from: FreeThinker on August 17, 2011, 10:54:13 amHi FreeThinker , as one productive person speaking to another productive person,I would say that I had never use the ignore list.He had removed (edit) the 3/4 of the insults, but its good to know who has the tendency to act like that,so to be aware.Regards,Kiriakos.

author: SgtRock
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 20, 2011, 02:23:39 am
content: --Our friend from the land of the blue sky and the wine dark sea has said:"And the Greeks are very trained buyers. My own father trained me to appreciate quality, I will do the same to my own kids."--Good Lord, all he was trying to do was uphold quality. He is working family man, not some suit from the ministry. I see a love of county and honorable pride in this statement. I'll be damned if I can see a thing wrong with it. Certainly there is no call to insult the man's nationality. Try doing without the word electron from the from Gk. elektron "amber" (Homer, Hesiod, Herodotus).--Uncle V might want to see to his own eye rather than worrying about the spec of solder Kiriakos might have in his. There is nothing wrong with the Greek people. So the government has made some mistakes. Here in America we just had a big argument about money. The people who won the argument said that in order to avoid default we had to borrow a couple more trillions of dollars. The also said it was financially reckless not to borrow, and that people who argued otherwise were terrorists.--Very soon the USA is going to face exactly what the Greeks are facing. And when we do I will bet you drachmas to donuts Kiriakos will not insult us. He might say "I told you so", and he will be right. But I am guessing he will not be dealing any sniveling snarks from the bottom of the deck.--By the way. How does one edit one's own posts? I did not notice anything marked edit on the page. Best RegardsClear Ether from Gk. "aither" upper air

author: Kiriakos-GR
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2011, 02:53:00 am
content: Greece is an major cross road about products and services.I have see tons of goods from Taiwan and China and Korea and Singapore, years ahead than the other nations.For more than 40 years Europe was counting on their own products, or the ones that was coming from the East.The American products never was a "first choice ".The worldwide market was flooded with products from the East in the last 15 years.And just to be honest I will not let the Japanese out of the equation,for example at the 1978 their Toyota had major issues with the head lamps,and just a bumpy road was enough for those sealed head lights to burn and die,and you was forced to buy the complete head light again.I am not riding my wooden stick with the wooden horse head and dance in the streetBut I will not tolerate any international parental control at my 42 , from some one at the sunset of his life.And no matter the financial problems of the market, and the political mistakes,I have 5000 years of history, and because I am crazy and proud I will make them 10.000

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 20, 2011, 02:59:06 am
content: Quote from: SgtRock on August 20, 2011, 02:23:39 amAny reference towardsaGreek is not a reference towardsallGreeks! A subtlety not understood by those choosing to grovel in the depth of sweeping generalisations.QuoteUncle Vernon might want to tell you, SgtRock, to get a clue, too!QuoteNot at all, on the whole wonderful people, but just like Australia, USA and most other fine nations they have their share of retards who grovel in the realms of generalisation and a false sense of national superiority.QuoteThat's nice for you, hope you get it sorted out real soon.QuoteWon the argument? eh? There hasn't been too many winners emerging from that debate thus far.QuoteI've found Kiriakos's racial slurs and tirades of supposed national superiority so annoyingly, insulting and off topic I've added him on the ignore list. Guess where your tirades of incoherent nonsense is heading now?QuoteI care little what he or you say, what's even better is I can make a few keystrokes so I don't have to suffer through having to read the slop.QuoteOne clicks the help and information buttons, one reads, one learns, one comprehends, and one attains a level of basic competency before shooting ones mouth off half cocked is how one does it.Quoteobviously! A common yet still inexcusable trait!

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2011, 03:43:23 am
content: Quote from: Uncle Vernon on August 20, 2011, 02:59:06 amUncle Vernon has come very close to being added to my ignore list too. This is great, if we all ignore each other the forum will be a haven of peace and light!There is some truth in what Kiriakos says however; US made products have hardly any presence in Europe at all. One of the fun things about coming to America is seeing all the brand names like GE (with the curly letters) or GMC that nobody in Europe has ever heard of.Not that Great Britain has anything to be proud of. "British Made" has gone the way of the dodo and nearly everything these days is "Made in China". At least the Germans have somehow managed to continue making stuff, even if it does come at a price...

author: SgtRock
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 20, 2011, 03:54:01 am
content: Dear Uncle V:Kiriakos stated:"And the Greeks are very trained buyers."--You stated in reply:"Hell yeah they have managed to buy millions more than they can ever repay."--It seems clear that you meant your statement to apply to "the Greeks" Come on now, own up to it. You did not have a counter to his point that most Greeks appreciate quality so you attacked the Greek national character. Naughty naughty. Also, I think you meant to say billions rather than millions.--Then you stated:"Any reference towards a Greek is not a reference towards all Greeks!" A subtlety not understood by those choosing to grovel in the depth of sweeping generalisations ."--This begs the question. Your first statement was clearly a reference towards all Greeks, an as such was patently offensive. I'll assume you meant "generalizations" with a z and not and s. Also I do not believe I made any generalizations, least of all sweepings ones. Perhaps you could provide an example.--I guess I will have to mark you down as "no sale" Still all in all a most entertaining series of posts for all to see. I love to see someone try to walk a statement back, while dancing the shilly shally.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 20, 2011, 04:30:24 am
content: Quote from: IanB on August 20, 2011, 03:43:23 amYour choice, any time you feel the need.QuoteSome truth indeed it's a pity you have to wade knee deep through nationalistic ramblings to try and find it.QuoteThat always been the US's own curse, their market being so huge it could afford for decade to be insular and ignore the rest of the world. One of the the benefits this GFC has brought is a change of attitude in many now hungry US vendors could never be bothered with export. But while being critical of the US I'll make it quite clear that Europe can and usually is just as insular in the way they do business.QuoteI couldn't agree more, considering Britain was one the world hub of manufacturing and trade, something has gone very wrong. But Britain is not alone in suffering the made in Asia phenomena. For many developed contries their greatest engineering export over the last few decades have been the engineers themselves, that is true here in Australia, and while I am only surmising appears to be true for you.Across the developed world we appear to be suffering a battle where the economists and paper shufflers have stifled creativity and productivity turning proud national economies into some kind of sick card game. Stockmarkets into casino, the results of this worldwide are now coming home to roost.Greece is not some world leader in electronics any more than Australia or the Congo is. That is not to say that Greece Australia or the Congo is devoid of clever engineers or innovative companies. Be proud by all means, I know I am, but to suggest so kind of nationalist superiority is bullshit. The facts and figures just don't support the wild claims.I could brag ad nauseum about my Australia's apparent lack of GFC carnage, but the reality is our minerals based economy is yet to suffer the full impact of a global demand shrinkage.The US is in the toilet financially, the national debt per person higher than that in Greece, but when making comparisons it may be worth also considering each nations ability to gear up industries that will earn enough to repay debts various.All the flag waving and voodoo economics in the world won't change the simple fact that you cannot continue to spend more than you earn without things going pear-shaped. That applies fornations just as much as it does for individuals.We are all responsible and we are all suffering the results of the governments and the policy makers we elected. No nation is going to improve by waving it's flag, flag waving never fed clothed or housed any population.

author: Bored@Work
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2011, 04:33:02 am
content: Kiriakos is here to stir up shit at every possible opportunity. He is known to have been banned from other forums for this.He is an attention-seeker who has no clue, but that doesn't prevent him from pulling arguments out of his arse at every opportunity. Once again he managed to derail a thread. While you are arguing he is wanking himself silly over the attention he once more got. Congratulations for giving him what is so desperately seeking.Dave keeps him around for some reason. That allows him to assemble a small group of equally clueless fanboys here. I guess we have to add SgtRock to that fanboy list.

author: Kiriakos-GR
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2011, 04:48:20 am
content: Quote from: BoredAtWork on August 20, 2011, 04:33:02 amThat's partially trueHe keeps me and 9053 total members up to date.EEVblog Electronics Community Forum » Members List » Viewing Members 1 to 100 (of 9054 total members)But the door is always open, if you dislike reading about electronics.

author: SgtRock
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 20, 2011, 05:47:50 am
content: Greetings All:--I just received a PM from Uncle V:"From: Uncle VernonCongratulation : You have won an all expenses paid one way trip to my ignore list. To do so within so few posts could even be the all time record. The maxim was and always will be think before you type, a concept clearly beyond your intelect  and abilities.Feel free to rant there as incoherently as you already do! Feel free also to send as many abusive replies as you see fit, I do not mind I will never have to read them or any of the other tripe you are capable of regurgitating.Indeed you were the weakest link!"--Now it think it is Congratulations rather than Congratulation. Also notice while he is criticizing my intellect he misspells intellect. It must be getting hot it the kitchen.--If one were to add enough people to the do not view list. Ones comments could come off as not taking in to account what had gone before. This could make one seem more ignorant than one really is. So I will never do it, no matter how much I disagree with some postings. Best RegardsClear Ether

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 20, 2011, 06:06:22 am
content: Quote from: BoredAtWork on August 20, 2011, 04:33:02 amThe Google search is certainly informing.QuoteA gift from the post-count fairies, huh.QuoteI think Dave runs things pretty well, he's not keen on over intervention and for that I applaud him.This is a great forum, it's just a pity some haven't come to terms with the concept of forum and see it as their own shout post.A lot of clever and helpful people participate here, I try to listen to what they have to say and avoid the rabble.Sadly if left unchecked the usual suspects will bang their tin until every thread is poisoned and every topic is twisted to suit their particular agenda.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 20, 2011, 06:16:19 am
content: Quote from: SgtRock on August 20, 2011, 05:47:50 amYour other option, of course, would be to spontaneously combust, hell why not do it as a video post, while I will not be able to see it I am sure I will hear about it when it happens. :-)

author: SgtRock
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 20, 2011, 08:04:52 am
content: To All:--Please allow me to give a brief summary of this thread as I see it:--Dave posts an article for our elucidation. The thrust of this articleis that the mainland Chinese companies that make clones counterfeits and knockoffs are beginning to lay the wood to Taiwan companies using lower priced inferior goods. And that the Taiwan companies using lower prices have been getting market share from companies like Tektronix and Agilent. Dave's point in posting the article, I think, is that it is dog eat dog out there and that the bad drives out the good.--Some good discussion follows with some give and take. Then at one point Kiriakos says many people appreciate quality and that is why they watch Dave's tear down videos. There is more polite disagreement and give and take, and war stories. Then Kiriakos says he thinks most Greeks appreciate quality like his father taught him and like he will teach his children. He also states that "the Greeks are very trained buyers."--This is the point ay which the fit hits the shan. Now Uncle V decides to make an uncalled for crack about the Greek people buying millions (he probably meant billions) more than they can pay for. I then make a post defending Kiriakos and the Greeks. Now there is another post by Uncle V where he shilly shallys and tries to crawl away from his uncalled for crack, claiming he never said any such thing. One can see that he is getting angry. I then make a post pointing all of this out.--This sends Uncle V off the deep end and he sends me the hostile kiss off PM letter saying he is putting me on the ignore list. The PM is shown in my previous post.--Then Mr. Boreatwork jumps in and tries to save the bacon. He say the Kiriakos and I are clueless, and fanboys. And implies that Dave just keeps us around to glorify his megalomaniacal ego. Apparently these two are the all troll contrarian tag team.--Finally Uncle V comments on my last post. Which is interesting because he already stated he had put me on his ignore list. He says:"Your other option, of course, would be to spontaneously combust, hell why not do it as a video post, while I will not be able to see it I am sure I will hear about it when it happens. :-)"-- When someone starts wishing a very painful death on the person they disagree with, I can only conclude that they have anger management issues. Good Grief! You folks are welcome to disagree with me all you want. I am not going to hate you or wish death on you. God bless you all.--Dave is correct. The bad is driving out the good. It is hurting all of us. It cost Dave a Job. It cost my brother his job. All we can do is try to uphold quality and fight the good fight. Best RegardsClear Ether

author: Kiriakos-GR
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2011, 01:33:37 pm
content: Quote from: SgtRock on August 20, 2011, 08:04:52 amYes that's the complete story and for your information I got also, not so civil PM's( Many ) from Vernon or what ever he calls him self.And I will say this as my last word, if some one likes to shoot a peacock because it looks enthusiastic and happy,in contrast of his own self who looks like a crow, its his problem.God made peacocks pigeons and crows so to be some diversity, and a less boring world.Its true that my talent at using the English language and defend my self or win the impressions,its not my strong point.Either way I prefer some enthusiasm mixed with knowledge plus few good laughs,rather to morn about my own lost job and the unemployment problem.And basically this community is born from enthusiasts who shares the enthusiasm of Dave too.If Dave change his root, and stop be enthusiastic he will be alone , and the EEV will end up like a million slowing dieing web sites,who has nothing to offer other than tons of boring text and videos.SgtRock just select and reply only to the people who has an positive way of thinking,I hate the crows too, but I do no wish their death.But either way, I have to congrats you, you did spotted the most famous crow's in this forum ... LOL

author: SgtRock
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 20, 2011, 02:37:36 pm
content: Dear Kiriakos:--Indeed it must be a lonely thing to not feel love burning fiercely in ones heart. Love of family, love of nation, love of work, some find this hard to avoid. For this I am thankful. I think is was Omar who said:"But leave the Wise to wrangle, and with meThe Quarrel of the Universe let be:And, in some corner of the Hubbub coucht,Make Game of that which makes as much of Thee."Best RegardsClear Ether

author: ciccio
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2011, 03:50:10 pm
content: All the above posts leave me with a bad taste in my mouth.I believed that we were here to discuss of electronics or other related arguments.Many member's (including me) fluency of the English language is limited, and this may carry to some misunderstandings.Personal attacks seem illegitimated, and surely out-of-place.It is sad that things are gone so deep into the ashes.

author: saturation
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2011, 04:14:00 pm
content: Yes, its sad but such is the world. It has never been proven scientfically, AFAIK, but like karma, the US has a saying that is echoed in many countries, languages and versions:http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/what_goes_around_comes_aroundIf you have the time to research the posts on eevblog you'll know who the trolls are and who are simply reacting to them. Eventually, it comes back to them, in spades. There are also those who are innocently caught in the cross fire so use the ignore filter so you don't get pulled in too.To stay on topic, what is happening to China in terms of IP theft is likewise happening to the same companies that appropriate the designs. Goodwill fortunately, AFAIK, continues to make products unique to their brand, so the future prospects suggests they can survive unless they yield more and more to ODM houses to lower their costs, or become ODM themselves, and risk diluting their reputation like Xytronic.Quote from: ciccio on August 20, 2011, 03:50:10 pm

author: SgtRock
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 20, 2011, 04:58:57 pm
content: Dear Ciccio:--I think I agree with the spirit of what you said. I would just like to point out that this thread is in the part of the forum called General Chat "Anything Goes" which means that by design it is not restricted to just electronics, yes?--I believe all of the personal attacks in this thread have been made by the English speakers and none have been made by people who have English as a second language, such as yourself.--When you say "all of the above posts leave a bad taste in your mouth", I hope you really meant some instead of all. Otherwise you would be saying even your own post left a bad taste in your mouth. And many of the posters in this thread have yet to utter a contentious word.--It is our duty to oppose bullies, whether with words or martial arts. If you let them get away with it, it will only get worse. I think the worst thing I have said in this thread is calling our two resident contrarians "tag team trolls", which I felt justified in saying, given the provocation. I have not wished death on anyone, nor have I insulted their nationality. I have not referred to anyone's "arse". I have not accused anyone of regurgitating tripe. I have not accused anyone of "stirring up sh*t", nor have I accused anyone of "wanking themselves silly" I hope you can see the difference. If I have said something that left a bad taste in your mouth, please tell me exactly what it was I said.--Finally, with regard to people for whom English is a second or third language, such as you or Kiriakos. I have taken courses in Russian, German, and Spanish, but I do not speak any of them as well as you two speak English. So I would never make fun of your little errors, because I know I sound much worse when I am speaking in a tongue which is foreign to me. I would only remonstrate with you for purposes of clarity, and not of ridicule. Native English speakers will receive no such quarter. By the way, may I please know what your first language is, if you do not mind telling me.Best RegardsClear Ether

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2011, 05:04:33 pm
content: Quote from: SgtRock on August 20, 2011, 04:58:57 pmItalian?

author: SgtRock
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 20, 2011, 05:18:03 pm
content: Molte grazie.

author: ciccio
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2011, 05:26:38 pm
content: Quote from: SgtRock on August 20, 2011, 04:58:57 pmYes, Italian.I want to make it clear that, when I was writing of a bad taste, I was not referring at your posts (of which I agree with most of the points) or at any other member's in particular.I was only reporting that, in my humble opinion, this discussion was going out of the correct borders, even in a general discussion thread.In any case, I think that will not continue reading this thread.

author: baljemmett
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 20, 2011, 06:51:50 pm
content: Quote from: SgtRock on August 20, 2011, 08:04:52 amTo do so would be to ignore the fact that it follows on from another spat between the two major combatants, which followed on from, etc.; perhaps wading in, picking a side and flinging more shit around is not the wisest move given that context...

author: SgtRock
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 20, 2011, 06:59:17 pm
content: To All:--The article at the beginning of this thread makes the point that what is now happening to Taiwan Electronic companies as a result of Mainland China electronic companies is the same thing that happened to Western Electronic companies as a result of Taiwanese Electronic companies.--Although China is aggressive and a bit of bully sometimes, China is not really the problem. The same sort of thing has been happening to the Japanese Electronic Companies as a result of Korea at first, then Viet Nam, The Philippines, Malaysia, etc. This sort of thing is going on in all market sectors. It is called connection shock.--Imagine there is lake, large or small that is not connected to any of the other bodies of water. The species in that lake have pretty much worked out the food chain and pecking order, and things are relatively stable. Then one day there is an earthquake and the lake is now directly connected to the Great Lakes system. You just know things are going to change radically for the species in that lake. There are going to winners and losers.--When a country becomes connected to the Global Economy through transportation and the internet, its companies and workers are now competing with companies and workers from anywhere in the world.--It is not all a matter of cheaper goods that are not as well made either. Japans auto companies have been out competing American auto companies by selling more expensive cars that are better made, in many cases. Though usually it is a case of emerging economies having lower wages and less regulation out competing mature economies which have higher wages and more regulations.--When the Brooklyn Bridge was completed in 1833 the business environment for merchants and street cart vendors on the Island of Manhattan changed radically. Now vegetables and consumables could just roll into downtown by the ton. Prices dropped in a hurry.--This is the sort of thing that is happening to all of the old mature economies in the world and short of global warfare nothing is going to stop it. It is not pretty, but there it not much you can do about it. There are not really and villains in the story, although some governments make it worse by not going with the flow.--Forty years ago gas station attendant jobs were very low paying, now thanks in large part to social security, workman's comp. and upward pressure on wages from minimum wage legislation, gas station attendant jobs pay a lot better, but there aren't any. You get what you want but you loose what you had. This just is not the kind of thing Governments can do any thing about. We are all in for a rough patch for a while, till a new status quo eventuates. I know it is hurting people. It hurting me. It is just that I do not see anyone to blame. Best RegardsClear Ether

author: Kiriakos-GR
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2011, 07:23:55 pm
content: I will totally agree with you SgtRock , this is the true picture.But you forgot to add , that the fishes in the small lake, never had the cash to make the lake larger!!Some one who had the financial power = sponsors = stock holders, managed to aggressively change the life of the fishes,and the life of the stock holders.And because all that money came primarily from the American people, they do not have the right to complain for losses,they did win some money and lost their soul, and that's all about it.Unfortunately the average American did not win that much from the Global economy,and now that he is in pain, he blames everything that it moves, other than the American system that produces endless opportunities.The size of this planet its no endless, and so and the opportunities too.I think that the solution will come by disconnecting the lakes again, and by cutting down the production of the goods too.What if a robot it can assemble 1000 Fluke DMM per day ( single model) ? No one needs so many.Yes but still they are dreaming to sell them nationally or internationally , well this is an modern utopia.I just use the Fluke name randomly, add the what ever brand in the equation.Edit :The human population is unable to race and win against the machines, even as worker or even as a consumer.And this brings unemployment and a tremendous amount of goods with no buyers.And there is no exclusion for any nation or state, that it will fall apart if the new "model of economic growth" keeps to be the primary.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 20, 2011, 11:33:05 pm
content: Quote from: ciccio on August 20, 2011, 03:50:10 pm

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 20, 2011, 11:45:24 pm
content: Quote from: saturation on August 20, 2011, 04:14:00 pmWe are certainly seeing the copies of copies of copies appearing, the really worrying part is that the efforts put into deception far exceed the efforts put into QC or innovation. There is quite a bit of cloning where even the brand name is copied.GW has built a reputation but how do you know, until after purchase, if a product is the real deal if this copying continues unchecked? with clear distribution channels breaking down its now not so easy.

author: FreeThinker
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2011, 11:39:15 am
content: Quote from: Uncle Vernon on August 20, 2011, 11:45:24 pmYour only guide is price! (and then it is very tenuous) or maybe the supply chain (Farnell RS etc).

author: saturation
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2011, 12:21:31 pm
content: Yes, name brands can be priced higher. Aside from buying from authorized distributors, the other is doing in-house performance checking. Test your gear or parts to insure it lives up to its spec sheet, the more you can verify the less likely its counterfeit.This is important issue for eevblog users as many are looking for gear and parts from direct in China sources.For individuals, a key trick is to find the OEM manufacturer of a brand name, and get as good a product but at very low prices, this is part of eevblog's fame, finding Rigol as the Agilent OEM or ODM. Likewise, I forget the brands but there are well known OEM for LeCroy and Tek, these OEMs can truly give Goodwill trouble as their manufacturing and design have been 'blessed' by named brands and their engineering skills.Much of eevblog reviews on gear is performance checking, then usability after spec'ing a device and finding a lowest price. If the device lives up to its specs, whether its counterfeit, OEM or not becomes moot. Of course, longevity is another issue, but a good approximation can be done with a system burn in.Price alone is problematic guide, since its only associated, not directly related to performance.Quote from: Uncle Vernon on August 20, 2011, 11:45:24 pm

author: FreeThinker
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2011, 12:52:11 pm
content: Quote from: saturation on August 21, 2011, 12:21:31 pmYep a good trick, but not so easy in practice. If it has a licence number in the US you can look up the details but appart from that it can be very difficult if not impossible to to find, and if it is a pure copy (and not a 'me too' product) they will go to great lengths to prevent it.

author: saturation
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2011, 02:06:23 pm
content: Yes, the best trick is a forum like eevblog doing tear downs. License #, port of entry, etc., can all be futile since so many models look alike, yet are made by different factories. We've found many such gear, and others that are not, by posters doing a tear down so we can examine the guts, the PCB and makers mark. If we all did it to devices we come across, we'd be one step closer to finding the clones at low price.Quote from: FreeThinker on August 21, 2011, 12:52:11 pm