Another Engineering failure (not for weak hearted)... - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 10, 2013, 08:25:59 pm
content: i couldnt stand it watching and just letting it go (kid fall off the escalator, dont watch if you faint hearted). i know its harsh but i wish i can educate as much young engineers as i can, trust me this is the only best place i have and i have no practising engineers friends around, so thats why it will be here. please pass the message to your fellow esp civil and mechanical engineers... put netting or blockage or something between storey, always think for the worst while designing things... the fact is, things do happened (mostly for the sake of aesthetic'sm and "glamour")... i saw the same issue a while ago somewhere. the escalator "hand rest" (not sure what the term) that goes upward is too close to the horizontal beam (parallel to the escalator direction) upstair, if some kid laying his head protruding out of the "hand rest" while going up, it will be chopped off by the beam, i only didnt know where to make the complain, even if i did maybe i just get ignored (just as usual)... prevention if more important than cure.

author: houdini
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 10, 2013, 08:46:27 pm
content: I see no problem with the escalator but rather with whoever was watching him that shouldn't have let him try to go head first down the escalator hand rail.

author: Radio Tech
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 10, 2013, 08:50:46 pm
content: The good news is the boy lived.http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/4488675/Lucky-boy-5-falls-three-floors-and-escapes-unharmed.html

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 10, 2013, 09:04:18 pm
content: Quote from: houdini on April 10, 2013, 08:46:27 pmhuman is not perfect. kids act could be a split second while the mom checking the clothes or she could be paying the bill etc. and that only if you want to take that into consideration. another solution is you dont put escalator inline like that, maybe in zig zag manner. i always scared when "high rise falling" is easily accesible to public esp children.Quote from: Radio Tech on April 10, 2013, 08:50:46 pmmust be a "lucky" day for him, when is the time you win lotteries twice in a row? as the video showed, the kid hitted 2nd or maybe 1st floor escalator before hitting hard floor, maybe that help absorbing the momentum and he is very light small kid.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 10, 2013, 09:05:53 pm
content: now, this is an accident, but here is my thoughts on this :1) escalators have been built like this for years.2) when i grew up my parents imprinted on me that the shopping mall is NOT A PLAYGROUND !3) they also imprinted on me that there was to be holding hands of an adult when going on escalators. especially at that age.if i would have been farting around like that kid trying to dive down the handrail there would have been some serious 'imprinting' of the type that the area of my body used to sit on would have been glowing red ....Don't blame the engineers. Blame the parents. they are obviously distracted , blabbing about their latest purchases, on the phone, tweeting and whatever. the kid is not conditioned yet for an outing to the mall.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 10, 2013, 09:13:51 pm
content: Quote from: free_electron on April 10, 2013, 09:05:53 pmyou must be a good kid listening to your parents. i'm not blaming for what is already happened, engineers are human, human not perfect. this is something to think about in the future. Fluke is designed to be safe even if we abuse it, and power outlet is not designed to be easily accesible by poking our finger in, must be a reason for that, not simply an advice "dont go near it its dangerous" thing

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 10, 2013, 09:32:12 pm
content: when i was allowed to go to the shopping mall at such a young age there was hand holding from exiting the car to getting back in the car.And if as a kid , in my time , there was no listening there would have been swift 'corrective action' of the type that is remembered the longest.My parents were not distracted by cellphones and other stuff. They watched the kids.this is no longer the case... kids roam free, have tantrums on the floor if they don't get their way and consider everything a playground. a few weeks ago in a grocery store some 6 year olds were running around on their socks throwing their shoes at each other. mom was on the phone , shopping cart full of junkfood , snacks and sugarbombs , screaming at the kids to stop. shoes ended up in the meat section , between tomatoes. when mom finally got off the phone and did some more yelling one of the kids dropped to the floor and started a screaming tantrum that it was bored and they never went anywhere fun. Its younger sibling started crying it wanted to have an icecream.THAT WAS UNTHINKABLE in my time. ( 40 years ago )kids today are left cooped up before tv to watch their hyper manga tv shows , get fed sugerbombs which make them even more hyper and are bored out of their skull... the parents are bogged down and clueless and have no time to provided proper education as they are too self absorbed in gabbing to their friends on the blabphone/tube/fartbook. they are also overcomplimented. if they draw a squiggly line between to points it is immediately. oh good, look at how great you did . you are so good . no you didn't . the line ain't straight and there's 2 inksplotches on the paper. you FAIL.I'm all for stimulation and reinforcement and reward. but it has to merited. and that takes discipline.

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2013, 03:34:34 am
content: Quote from: Mechatrommer on April 10, 2013, 08:25:59 pmWalls on both sides (entry at the top or bottom, and exit on the opposite end).Here's an example:This aside though, at what point do people have to take responsibility for their own actions, or in the case of a child, the parents?I just don't think it's truly possible to fully idiot proof the world, and a little discipline and education of common sense (and application of it) can go a very long way.Quote from: free_electron on April 10, 2013, 09:05:53 pmSame here.Quote from: free_electron on April 10, 2013, 09:32:12 pmSadly, this is far too common.I even have to witness this sort of shenanigans with kids of one family member in particular. The parent of these little monsters wasn't raised like this either, so it's not a lack of knowing the difference.

author: smashedProton
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2013, 03:58:17 am
content: I once saw a child run into the street while her mother was on her phone. I screamed at her and stopped traffic. I made sure to chew up the mother tooThis brings up the issue that kids growing up in this generation may believe (which probably also is true) that their parents care about their iphone more than them. Sadly my father seems that way with his ipad.Sorry for hijacking the thread OP

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2013, 06:28:51 am
content: Wouldn't have happened if he'd been leashed.If any "human rights" activists complain then you can show them this video and tell them that a young kid with no sense of danger whatsoever is no better at judgement than an animal (actually I don't even think a dog would try that...)

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2013, 08:37:02 am
content: Quote from: amyk on April 11, 2013, 06:28:51 amanimals act based on "threat and safety" (or "opportunity" not sure what the term is) its been like that since the big bang. otoh us human go the other way around, must be evolution.

author: bitwelder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2013, 04:48:19 pm
content: Quote from: free_electron on April 10, 2013, 09:32:12 pm10 minutes of applauses...

author: M. András
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2013, 06:08:27 pm
content: i would simply get the parents not the engineers for this, seriously you as a kid must be dumb enough to try to climb on anything in a multiple stories building

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2013, 06:52:05 pm
content: Quote from: M. András on April 11, 2013, 06:08:27 pmno, the kid went to the thing that apparently looks like a "sliding machine" usually found in a "fun fair". now he is in the middle on the left is the parent, on the right is the designer. the parent failed to notify, the engineer failed to block, both recipe mixed, both hand clapped... BOOM.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2013, 07:04:23 pm
content: Here the centres all have big signs by the escalators and pictograms ( seeing as half the kids that graduate high school are totally illiterate ) that show the right and wrong ways to use them.You can now assume that the kid, when they get out of hospital, will never want to go to the mall ever again.

author: BillyD
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2013, 09:58:52 pm
content: It's the parents fault? And suppose another parent came along the following day and the same thing happened? And the same the following day. Is it still all those parents faults? Do you not think somebody else might also bear at least some of the responsibility for the safety here?Yes the kid should not have climbed up there, and yes his parents should have had better control over him. But does that make it ok for some kid to lose or almost his life?I'd class that as a 'system failure' i.e. a good system should be able to respond at least some way gracefully to all the cock ups and unexpected events that happen in the real world.If I owned that building I could sit back and say it's all the kids+parents fault and do nothing else or I could learn from the experience and do something:I could put an permanent safety attendant standing there (in fact that was actually done in a centre here in Dublin in the last few years in response to a similar incident).I could raise the barrier.I could put netting underneath.etc.This is not pandering to the compensation culture, this is seeing risks and playing your part in mitigating them. Countless tragedies and disasters have been preceded by warnings which were ignored.It's only an engineering fail if you see a problem and do nothing about it.

author: BiOzZ
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2013, 10:57:17 pm
content: GOD DAMN kids are resilient O.o

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2013, 11:30:11 pm
content: Quote from: BiOzZ on April 11, 2013, 10:57:17 pmAmazingly, they bounce really well.Stuff I've seen of my family's kids have me in awe. They walk away with maybe a scratch or scrape instead of broken bones (closer to what I expected the result to be).

author: ddavidebor
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 12, 2013, 05:14:52 am
content: Yeah the good side of not completed formed bones

author: Ghydda
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 12, 2013, 07:49:31 am
content: Oh boy you people are really digging trenches.It's not about removing all dangers from society, nor is it about making sure Darwin gets the last word.Bad arguments are made in both camps (paraphrasing here):"Let's bubble wrap the world, then we're all safe!""Let's remove seatbelts and airbags, because if you can't avoid hitting shit you need to be taken out!"It's all about walking the fine line between sensible safety measures and not overdoing it.In my opinion, the kid acted stupid, but the mitigating factor was that the hand rail aided him in getting up there. A normal stationary handrail wouldn't have done that. I bet the kid was surprised how fast he was pulled up.So yes, the safety precautions were inadequate, especially so considering the 2 floor drop onto hard concrete.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 12, 2013, 11:07:08 am
content: Quote from: Ghydda on April 12, 2013, 07:49:31 amso your conclusion is....? from discussion so far, my take is, both parties, parents and engineers must play their role to ensure safety.

author: BillyD
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 12, 2013, 11:21:24 am
content: Quote from: Mechatrommer on April 12, 2013, 11:07:08 amI think you've hit the nail on the head.From the engineering viewpoint you should try to learn from every incident and consider whether or not there is something you should do in response. Sometimes you'll do something, sometimes you'll do nothing. This is the approach which led to cars having seatbelts and airbags, bridges having railings, airliners having oxygen masks but not parachutes, etc. In fact a similar logic can be applied to parents + how they manage their kids.

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 12, 2013, 11:42:58 am
content: Quote from: nanofrog on April 11, 2013, 11:30:11 pmMass relative to structural strength also has a lot to do with it, in the same way that insects can fall from many times their height and be unharmed while large structures can deform under their own weight.

author: BillyD
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 12, 2013, 12:11:53 pm
content: Quote from: AcHmed99 on April 12, 2013, 11:32:54 amI'll admit that there are probably quite a few cases worldwide where kids fall over the edge at escalators. But that's only part of it. Of those incidents, how many are compounded by the victim subsequently falling through another?Nobody is saying that the parents are without blame. But it's surprising how many people seem to think that escalator design is now perfect and final, and apparently needs no improvement or tweaks. Or afraid to take any action in case they get blamed or sued.

author: ddavidebor
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 12, 2013, 03:50:20 pm
content: If you're stupid you can kill yourself with a piece of paper.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 12, 2013, 05:47:41 pm
content: Then you must never go to malls with atria, as they often are using them for escalators, and there is nothing preventing you from jumping over and doing a 4 floor flight, except for the signage at each entrance, and a pole so you cannot take a trolley on to the escalators ( and you will not be surprised how many try to get one through around the pole before finally figuring that there is an elevator right next to the escalator for that) and have it fly down mowing all before it.

author: smashedProton
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 12, 2013, 07:45:11 pm
content: Damn... that kid woukd remember that for the rest of his life. Or lack there of

author: Ghydda
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 18, 2013, 07:08:28 am
content: Quote from: AcHmed99 on April 12, 2013, 12:54:07 pmIn my line of work were not taught to make that kind of reasoning - ie. if something is less likely to happen then we can ignore it.Where I come from you make an FMEA-analysis of the different events/scenarioshttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Failure_mode_and_effects_analysisand implement the appropriate responses to scenarios which .The analysis (somewhat simplified) looks at two parameters:ProbabilitySeverityIf either of those two parameters yield alarming numbers you have to act upon it.IMO the severity of said accident is very high because of the 2 floor drop onto concrete (rates catastrophic in FMEA i.e. the kid could die - just imagine if he landed head first instead).Every engineer should practice the FMEA-analysis on everything he/she creates - most of the time most error-scenarios will be taken care of just by implementing common sense.But once in a while I stumble upon a use-case which I initially wouldn't have considered potentially troublesome but turned out to be quite unfortunate given the right plausible circumstances.And for the record I am not rooting towards engineers and government agencies assuming full responsibility for our children's safety. But they are required to set and ensure a reasonable baseline safety level in all of man's constructs.

author: Rerouter
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 18, 2013, 10:08:16 am
content: now to me, if one was to try and rectify that, it would involve enclosing the feed to the handrail and squaring the edges to prevent an easy slope to rise on, however as most elevators can operate in either direction (say 1 fails, ) that introduces a far more probable risk of catching a finger or such in a pinch point, which doesn't help the situation (just a tradeoff) but at-least a pinch point is generally easy to mitigate using rolling flaps, ,this still leaves the risk of a fall which is always present, but it removes the risk of a small child "easily" getting on-top of it,

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 18, 2013, 01:35:47 pm
content: in other word, AcHmed is better than FMEA-analysis. the solution is not rocket science, nor sending one to the moon, how much cost you want to substitute with one life? accidents do happen, but wise man will act upon it once it happened rather than putting up the holy sacred statistical proof.

author: BillyD
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 18, 2013, 02:50:54 pm
content: I don't think it's as simple as sloppy parenting. Many would say there are a couple of other factors involved here.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 18, 2013, 03:16:59 pm
content: FMEA is a standard procedure in all engineering. it's purpose is to examine the sequence of events for any possible failure and the consequences and put in place any steps to avoid catastrophic failure. For example someone designing the wiring for a hospital will examine the effects sudden loss of power would cause and identifies that power failure to the operating theatre would be life threatening to the patient so stipulates a requirement for back up power which may also in turn have a failsafe backup.At work we had to do an FMEA on radiators, to see what would happen should they fail, if the car suddenly stops it will be the cause of a massive pile up.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 18, 2013, 04:11:11 pm
content: this is issue is not design failure as.. what if my dsign, bar, wire or building crack or fail. this is about we forget to put covering to a dangerously access area. the solution is not changing all the thing. just adding barracade, or tightening open space etc, simple, engineering is about solving problems in simple, achivable and practical solution. and no, we dont expect perfection that need years to develop it. we only "should" learn from past history, at least that, we can do.i believe toddler problem in electrical wiring is already solved long time ago by installing in high place and covering distribution box in well insulated well built well locked mechanism. its unlikely toddler will reach there unless some unnatural power defying gravity lift the kid if being left unattended.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 18, 2013, 06:04:34 pm
content: Quote from: AcHmed99 on April 18, 2013, 03:57:39 pmListen have you finished trying to "argue the toss" ? I told you what an FMEA is as you were ridiculing it and calling it things it is not. If you want to carry own inventing your own little world go right ahead.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 18, 2013, 06:59:57 pm
content: I meant technical possibilities, not stupidity possibilities, i was pointing out what an FMEA is, it's not some random concoction of paranoid possibilities.It's a document that most manufacturers of a system have to produce to pass on to their customers so that they can plan the next level and so on. It's a recognized standard in the engineering world (the civilized one that is). It usually precedes and provides input information in certification that a product like a car is not going to have serious problems.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 18, 2013, 07:55:53 pm
content: we dont have to think about the likeliness or the unlikeliness of an event. the "burden of proof is for people who make the claim", andwe "only" base on "an event that we have seen or witnessed". i think that simplifies alot of things. and i believe we all agree on the bolded fact religious or unreligious

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 18, 2013, 09:29:38 pm
content: Quote from: AcHmed99 on April 18, 2013, 07:12:13 pmAs I was recently taught in risk assessing, there are two factors: probability and severity. We aim to keep both low, should either become high we start looking and taking precautions. You look at probability first, get that down, but if there is a conceivable risk that something not so likely will happen that will have drastic effects try to do something.FMEA has nothing to do with what the installed observe. Like I said the FMEA is a document that the manufacturer of a subsystem produces to illustrate what problems can arise and what there effects will be and what is put in place to stop that happening altogether or what has been done to divert the problem and release the effect in a way that is not harmful. The overall system designer will need to take these into account when he makes his design as he can see what will happen over all if one part of a subsystem fails. Then based on that information he has from his suppliers about his products he can produce a system that is deemed safe according to the governing authorities and can generate any relevant documentation.

author: BillyD
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 19, 2013, 09:11:16 am
content: Well if I was the manager of that shopping centre, and I had just been given the video proof that it *can* happen, and the only consolation was that the kid didn't lose his life, I'm not sure if either my bosses or my conscience would be happy with the argument that it's not likely to happen again and therefore we're doing nothing.

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 19, 2013, 09:40:20 am
content: We currently have school holidays here in Australia (not Austria).Yesterday as I rode the carpark escalator, I watched a mother with a (I guess) 8 year old boy and younger sister.The boy obviously had behaviour problems as he was climbing on the handrail and running ahead just be to naughty after repeatably being told by his mother to stay with them.The whole time I was thinking if there was some better way for the mother to handle this situation. But all I wanted to say to her was: "Belt that little bastard!"

author: george graves
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 19, 2013, 10:04:33 am
content: There overly dramatic thread titles have to stop.....it's worse than reddit.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 19, 2013, 10:57:55 am
content: Quote from: BillyD on April 19, 2013, 09:11:16 amPut is this way, if you worry and think of it too much you would never live your life and never leave your bed. we take risks every day and some of the most common things we do can be the most dangerous like driving. What is the severity of you being hit and crushed by a lorry ? Very Very bad, the fact that you still drive means that you accept that the probability is quite low.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 19, 2013, 11:49:06 am
content: unfortunately particularly in the US people look for reasons to sue others.In the case of the step: low severity, moderate probability, worth taking some reasonable steps particularly if the step is a bad one.Lightning in the car park: extremely severe, negligible probability - do nothing.

author: jpb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 19, 2013, 09:50:07 pm
content: My son when he was small, though not as young as the boy in this case, was carried up an escalator hand rail backwards - he leaned back against it whilst looking around a shop and suddenly the friction was enough to grab him and carry him up! Fortunately I was close at hand and just grabbed him. He was unhurt, apart from his pride - the look on his face though when he was suddenly grabbed by the shorts from behind by this rubber handrail!Generally escalators are pretty safe, there seem to be few accidents but when there are ones they can be horrific. A case in the UK fairly recently was that of a man who had his toe ripped off (he was wearing sandles I think and his toe somehow got caught where the escalator goes under the floor at the top). But the fact that these cases make the papers shows that they are not common.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 20, 2013, 12:57:09 am
content: i was once, like a mentally retard went to the escalator try to put my sandle into it, try any possibilities if it can sucked in. no i cant so i'm satisfied, it has this kind of meshing of interleaving rails to avoid this accident. i wonder whats people around me thought about me.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 20, 2013, 05:27:34 am
content: He can lose a toe because somebody broke off a single lifter finger, and this left a gap. To break the finger all you need is to take a trolley up the escalator ( and have no brain as to the fact that that trolley will fall over on top of you as well, just as soon as it starts to go up, or will fall down onto those below) and rest the wheel edge on it as it exits, which will snap the casting. Most centre escalators now here ( unless they are trolley travelators) have a pillar in the centre of the entrance way so that you cannot get a trolley past. Only issue is they are exactly the right height to cause injury to most men.

author: Joules
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 20, 2013, 06:41:35 am
content: Then it needs an illuminated sign with two bulbs that reads "Bollocks"