help with project of 4g in rural area - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / beginners

author: Pcaiman
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2020, 07:53:02 pm
content: Hi people, sorry if this not is the site for My question, but is the web with more technical knowledge than I know.In the next months I will go live in rural area, and in this place don't have GSM/4g signal, don't have internet service and My idea is make a project for bring internit or 4g to that area. In the house área have a celullar tower to 9km (in a hill)With clear view, i think that i can install a antenna in the house and position it in the direction of the tower hill, and repeat this in the house area. Can anyone explain what products can be used to carry out my project. (Antenna model, repeat GSM 4g and antenna Omnidirectional) thanks for read and sorry for the Bad English.

author: wizard69
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2020, 08:13:56 pm
content: I think you might not have good electronics solution because 9 km should be doable. I suspect you are so far out of line of sight that a climb to the top of one of those mountains is required.

author: Pcaiman
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2020, 08:27:47 pm
content: Quote from: wizard69 on March 18, 2020, 08:13:56 pmThanks for answer, the celullar tower hill is high to 900 meters, and is the most high in the área, i climb this hill and have clear view to house area and in the house can view the top of the hill, i tried to find any ideas maybe put a antenna in the tower and repeat to the house.

author: Tom18991
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2020, 09:06:57 pm
content: Can I ask what country you are in, and which service is transmitting 4G from the tower. They make cell boosters and directional antennas that are probably your best bet, but some are carrier specific. I have not had great results with them, but if you put effort into the installation, I don't know of anything better. You might also need to strategically locate the antenna and run a low loss cable to where you need the service.Read up on some options here:https://www.wilsonamplifiers.com/blog/best-ways-to-boost-cell-phone-signalAlso, consider a satellite-based internet service. The location shown looks like a perfect candidate for satellite internet.... Not cheap, but designed to work where cell towers don't...https://www.hughesnet.com/https://www.viasat.com/internet

author: Pcaiman
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2020, 10:11:12 pm
content: Quote from: Tom18991 on March 18, 2020, 09:06:57 pmHi i'm from Chile, my 4g is from Entel, the band is 700, 2600 and 3500 mhzHughesnet have this service in My country but the prices Start from 70 usd and 10gb for 1 month...

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2020, 10:31:41 pm
content: Normal solution is to purchase BW from the cell provider then through a 4g router and into sector panel/s that subscribers that have LOS can point their dishes to.Ubiquity can provide most of the HW for PnP installations.Quite simple if you have a mains powered relay site but certainly not impossible if you don't.Here above my place a private data relay pole with solar and battery power for a 24V system with 3 point to point links for transmission to other distribution sites and a sector panel for customer connections. Some 500MB/s throughput from a fiber site some 10km away.

author: Tom18991
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2020, 11:19:42 pm
content: What is BW, LOS, HW, and sector panels? Looks like you are serious about all this, so would like to understand what you're up to there. My booster is "ok" but not close to all that.... do tell....

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2020, 11:49:30 pm
content: Quote from: Tom18991 on March 18, 2020, 11:19:42 pmBW is the package of data you purchase from a data supplier which might include both speed limitations and a data cap.Some cell sites have wireless backhaul provision and so they can only supply so much data speed by virtue of how they are set up whereas a fiber provisioned cell site can generally provide much higher speeds although both can be throttled to maintain cell customer service quality.LOS = line of sight.HW = physical hardwareSector panels are what the subscribers wirelessly connect to and offer much wider degree of connection than say a dish point to point connection. 45 and 60 degree panels are the norm. Still, the subscribers must use some small dish to focus their connections to the sector panel which depending on the panel selected could handle 100 customers although their service will be highly dependant on the entire system data rate throughput.Nere in NZ the 5 GHz band is freely available but only supports so much data throughput whereas the 11 GHz band is licensed and provides much higher throughput.These are some of the products we're using:https://www.ui.com/products/#airmax

author: Tom18991
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2020, 01:03:19 am
content: Very cool. Sounds like you are setting up your own little cell tower, for you and your neighbors? I've never heard of that here in the US -- do you know if people can do that in the US? Once/if the data provider sells you a BW package, how do you get it to your tower? And when you say 4G router, does that mean you are basically broadcasting your own 4G signal just like a normal cell tower?How many users do you need before this becomes competitive price-wise with a satellite internet service?

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2020, 01:38:58 am
content: Quote from: Tom18991 on March 19, 2020, 01:03:19 amDon't get fooled like most of the population about xG cellular transmission vs the wireless GHz bands.3G, 4G and 5G refer to thegenerationof cellular transmission technology which has ZIP to do with the numerous frequencies they operate at whereas the likes of 5 GHz P to P data links operate in a narrow band ~5 GHz frequency.Cell repeater stations I know little about however if you broadcast on a frequency that the public can access you lose control of who can use your service and therefore miss any chance of ROI.Handling data to a remote site ex a cell tower must be via a xG router (at the highest speed available if you plan to serve any # of customers) then though a 1GB switch if you need to use 2 or more sector panels which BTW use POE so for mains installations makes it pretty easy and then assign a working band for the your HW and the dish to be connected to it.The billing side of it is another matter though as you might prefer to cap and/or speed limit users which can be done in secure routers or through a server at your data launch/management point.OTOH some cell providers will sell connection packages that you on-sell to your customers but they are generally capped. Others don't want a bar of anyone to provide their service outside themselves.

author: Pcaiman
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2020, 12:33:39 pm
content: Wow this is awesome, i think that this option is great o the Best, but i think that Movistar don't wanna sell nothing for simple man, and the other story is in a hill all this equipment is stolen un the next day (in My country), but the pictures that You show is the same tower/station that i have to 9 km un a hill, (closed with jail absorber security equipment), and energy with solar panels, i think in gave acces to this tower and install a repeat for me, but i don't have control with the net and the other people in the área can collapse the net, i tried to find some cheap options

author: Pcaiman
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2020, 07:55:23 pm
content: Hi people today i see a pic with shows a lte to wifi ptp and thinks that this is a good options for me, now tried to find the tools and equipment for make this system.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2020, 09:17:48 pm
content: Quote from: Pcaiman on March 19, 2020, 07:55:23 pmFor the P to P backhaul link these:https://www.ui.com/airmax/powerbeam-ac-gen2/They are what we use for local routing but longer distances might require these:https://www.ui.com/airmax/powerbeam-ac-iso/As you apparently have mains power at your distribution/relay point just a 4 port 1GB switch will do the data distribution and locally let others connect with a small sector panel like this that will serve say 10 connections no worries.https://www.ui.com/airmax/liteap-ac/Each connection will need a dish of some sort depending on their distance from the sector panel and for just a few 100m a NanoBeam is a good choice:https://www.ui.com/airmax/nanobeam-ac-gen2/Further away a LiteBeam will be required:https://www.ui.com/airmax/litebeam-ac-gen2/All that stuff does require some configuring of IP's but otherwise installation is pretty simple.We use exterior rated CAT5E cable with an internal earth conductor and metal shrouded RJ45 plugs to maintain an earth bonding to protect against ESD events.For stand alone pole installations all metalwork and devices are further bonded and grounded for some protection against lighting although if we got a direct hit all bets are OFF !

author: gerts
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: March 20, 2020, 12:00:46 am
content: You might take a look at Ubiquiti networking products. Also, check out the youtube channel "Crosstalk Solutions". Chris did a Q&A video I think on a setup like yours, but I couldn't locate it.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 20, 2020, 12:59:45 am
content: Quote from: gerts on March 20, 2020, 12:00:46 amYes well if you'd taken the trouble to click on any of the links provided above you'd see they were all of Ubiquiti products.

author: Tom18991
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 20, 2020, 03:34:24 pm
content: I give that Ubiquiti company credit for having page of page of products without explaining what any of them actually do. I'm trying to get up to speed in this underworld but the jargon and poor communication makes it a tough road to hoe.Do any of these products allow you to get better reception on your phone without setting up your own transmitter somewhere?

author: wizard69
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 20, 2020, 08:57:40 pm
content: Quote from: Pcaiman on March 18, 2020, 08:27:47 pm9 km is about 5.5 miles, most cell phone to tower connections can be done at up to 22 miles. If you can’t do that, connect at all, then there has to be a problem you are missing at which point buying new stuff might not help. So does your phone show any connection strength at all? If not you either don’t have line of site or the radios are faulty (cell or phone).If you can connect but can’t do high speed data then range could be an issue at either end.

author: SmallCog
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 20, 2020, 10:15:07 pm
content: Firstly just because there’s a tower it doesn’t mean your cell company is using it.If the cell tower is active with your provider it’s possible it’s shooting over you given the elevation difference.It might be worth trying a yagi that is appropriate to the frequency provisioned on the tower - particularly if you could borrow one. In Australia a quality Yagi is around $200 plus something to mount it onto.If you can get some reception with a yagi then you have a few options...There’s cheap and nasty repeaters. These are on eBay among other places and are illegal in my country. I have no idea about your regulations in Chile or how well these work but they cost under $100 from memoryIn Australia we have licensed and legal repeaters available. I’ve had great experience with the CellFi vehicle mounted repeaters which have given me unbelievable increases in range from towers (useful reception at 90km from a remote tower when it would normally be lost at 25km in one instance). I have no idea if these are available or approved for use in Chile. I get a great deal on these but I think they’re about $1500 retailThe cheap option, and the one we often implement at my work for remote sites on the fringe of the cellular network is installing a yagi with a suitable router and wifi access point. Our cellular provider provides wifi calling so our staff phones work just like normal provided they have internet access. iMessages also come through but SMS’s don’t. A suitable industrial modem/router/access point is about $400 but there are cheaper non industrial quality options.

author: Pat P.
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: March 22, 2020, 02:17:20 pm
content: We've had to implement a booster at our summer cottage. Distance is about 8.5km, but mostly shrouded by terrain, trees, etc.Solution was mounting a directional antenna as high as possible and using a proper booster. It is not going to be a $100 solution. All in we paid about $700 total.Even then we are still limited for signal, but can manage to stream netflix on the second to lowest data rate.

author: gerts
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: March 22, 2020, 11:22:41 pm
content: I did not look closely at the links provided or I would have noticed the ui domain. BFD...BTW, I did find the discussion I mentioned and here's the link:https://youtu.be/IQE9HPFHh8o?t=888

author: TomS_
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 25, 2020, 07:33:21 am
content: Quote from: Tom18991 on March 19, 2020, 01:03:19 amThis kind of operation is known as a WISP, or Wireless ISP.There are various regulations and legalities that you may have to satisfy if you want to set one up yourself. The US is a grab bag depending on which state you are in.There is a forum on dslreports.com where a few operators hang out, you could try asking specific technical questions there.Also bare in mind that a Telco can't always just provision a transit or backhaul service off any random point in their network such as a cell tower, and even if they can it will not be cheap. This is largely due to network topology - a cell tower is intended to provide cell service and may not contain any more equipment or connectivity than is necessary to perform that function.A typical WISP deployment may have to include some long haul microwave links to another town where transit/backhaul can be picked up easier or cheaper.Technologies such as 4G are typically out of reach for a run of the mill WISP due to the amount of infrastructure required to operate such a service, so much WISP equipment is not much more than 802.11 wireless access points and clients on similar frequency bands (2.4GHz and 5GHz).