Apple plans on leaving Intel architecture even for their PCs and laptops. - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: BrianHG
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2018, 12:07:39 am
content: News: Apple plans on leaving Intel architecture even for their PCs and laptops:

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2018, 12:37:33 am
content: That would be great, if only they could make ARM be even remotely comparable to X86 in performance. Or they will explain why it is better if things are slow. I'm sure marketing department is on it.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 08, 2018, 12:41:51 am
content: So even further restricting what the end-user can and can't do with their machines and forcing them to buy Apple hardware and software?

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2018, 12:51:40 am
content: Quote from: ataradov on April 08, 2018, 12:37:33 amARM is pushing higher and higher in the server market. Now that Intel has lost its process edge, architectures that are inherently more efficient will have an advantage. (Albeit the difference between x86 and ARM as far as efficiency is concerned is not as big as you might imagine.)

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2018, 12:51:56 am
content: This is a very interesting development. I haven't been able to find whether Apple plans to enter the x86 market or is going the ARM route with their desktop computers, or is planning to develop its own flavour compatible with none of the others. It's also interesting to see whether that'll be the end of Bootcamp.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2018, 12:53:31 am
content: Quote from: NiHaoMike on April 08, 2018, 12:51:40 amThere's more to it than pure efficiency. A lot of software is licensed based on processor or core count and the exact terms make a massive difference when it comes to TCO. It's silly, but the licensing model regularly dictates the hardware choices.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2018, 12:55:48 am
content: Quote from: NiHaoMike on April 08, 2018, 12:51:40 amThey are pushing in a market where actual computing performance is secondary, like web servers, VPS, and all that stuff. That's where they are great, because you can put more of them into the same volume. Nobody puts ARMs in high-performance computing, where calculations are a primary task.I' not sure how those processors will do in desktop applications. If Photoshop or Premiere runs slow, people will not be happy.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2018, 12:58:09 am
content: Seems it will push them into even more of a niche. A significant selling point is that OSX, Windows or Linux can all be used relatively seamlessly. Also I suspect it would take a long time for all the 3rd party software to be redone for yet another architecture change. When they switched to Intel they did a pretty good job in the transition though.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2018, 01:01:04 am
content: Quote from: ataradov on April 08, 2018, 12:55:48 amMicrosoft has released review samples of Windows 10 for ARM to journalists, and it seems to do fairly well. Even light gaming is doable. I'm very curious where that ends up going.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2018, 01:03:14 am
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on April 08, 2018, 01:01:04 amI've seen quite the opposite opinions. I mean it works with a performance of high-end Atom chip, but nothing special really.

author: BillB
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 08, 2018, 01:03:53 am
content: This could also be a ploy to gain favorable leverage in price negotiation.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2018, 01:07:04 am
content: Is there a technical reason why ARM is difficult to optimize for performance?

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2018, 01:09:20 am
content: Quote from: NiHaoMike on April 08, 2018, 01:07:04 amNot that I can see. They just have not been at it as long as Intel has. They are catching up fast though. And since Apple has their own people working on this stuff, they may have something really great already.Plus Apple will benefit from tight coupling of software and hardware, both optimized for each other.

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2018, 01:14:42 am
content: Quote from: ataradov on April 08, 2018, 12:55:48 amNobody? How about Cray, Fujitsu and Atos, all building supercomputers based on ARM cores?

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2018, 01:20:24 am
content: Quote from: Cerebus on April 08, 2018, 01:14:42 amThey are trying, for sure. But there is not a single ARM cluster in Top500. It is all Power and Xeon.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2018, 01:23:15 am
content: Quote from: NiHaoMike on April 08, 2018, 01:07:04 amARM has traditionally been about efficient portable computing, not about maximizing performance for the sake of it. Unfortunately, when you start increasing ARM performance it also loses much of its efficiency edge.http://www.hectronic.se/embedded/arm-or-x86/arm-or-x86.php

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2018, 01:23:22 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on April 08, 2018, 12:41:51 amOh please. They'll be forced to buy Apple hardware because it's got an Arm CPU? That's like saying you'd be forced to buy Intel hardware because the current Apples have Intel CPUs, or were forced to buy Motorola or IBM hardware when they used PowerPC architecture CPUs.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 08, 2018, 01:32:04 am
content: Quote from: Cerebus on April 08, 2018, 01:23:22 amWhat do you mean "oh please", this is typical of Apple's business model. Has been for decades. Where have you been living? I don't doubt for one moment that it won't just be a typical ARM processor, it'll have some kind of Apple-specific goodness in it.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2018, 01:34:49 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on April 08, 2018, 01:32:04 amIt will not be a typical ARM. That's the whole point of them investing millions of dollars into R&D of their own chip.But you are not forced to buy it. Just buy Lenovo or Dell.

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2018, 01:47:30 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on April 08, 2018, 01:32:04 amAnd how will that force people to buy Apple hardware? And 'Oh please' because you're just Apple bashing rather than putting forward a reasoned logical argument.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2018, 01:55:55 am
content: Could the Queen's subjects please be nice?

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 08, 2018, 03:28:37 am
content: Quote from: Cerebus on April 08, 2018, 01:47:30 amI have almost 20 years in the IT industry. I've used both PC and Mac's since the early 1990's. I've repaired both and continue to repair all types of computers, laptops and portable devices, including Apple products to this day. I've seen how Apple has evolved both as a company and in terms of their hardware since the Apple Macintosh Classic. I use Apple's OS and software weekly and know their limitations well. I might not know Apple products as intimately as I do stuff in the PC world, but I'd say I'm pretty experienced and have University and industry qualifications to back it up.Do you think Apple are making the switch to make iteasierfor consumers to use whatever hardware or software they want? Or to make their own choices when it comes to upgrades? In recent times they've screwed the consumer in such a way they make it near impossible even for so-called "power users" to upgrade or repair their machines. Have you pulled apart a recent Apple desktop machine? RAM and SSDs soldered to boards, machines glued together rather than screwed, proprietary "Apple only" parts. The proprietary ARM-based CPU is just another way Apple can control how consumers use and what they do with their machines and ultimately ensure their repeat business. They have no intention of helping Apple users run Windows (for example) on their machines or supporting hardware that isn't made by Apple.I can't think of a recent design decision in any Apple product which was good for the consumer. They just churn out the same crap over and over with a prettier box and a higher price tag.Is that reasoned and logical enough?

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2018, 03:33:17 am
content: What makes you think Apple users want to run Windows? And what makes you think Apple has to make it easier for their customers?Apple controls less than 10% of the market. You have plenty of other options if you don't like them.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2018, 03:42:25 am
content: I guess there are reasons to glue devices together when you're going for an ultra compact form factor, though I suspect there are other ways of doing it. However, in most cases it doesn't add a lot yet hugely impacts repairability and longevity. I suspect it won't be too long before regulators step in, as it's a consumer right and environmental matter as much as anything else.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 08, 2018, 03:58:37 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on April 08, 2018, 03:37:42 amWell yes, I think you're right to a degree. I'm not saying all Apple's designs are bad, some are actually very good and I can see why other's copy. As for the 3.5mm jack, I think those that follow suite will piss off a lot of customers just like Apple did. This is largely the reason why the likes of Samsung have kept the jack or those that have removed it in favour of USB-C (like Sony) have at least given you an adapter in the box.

author: Bassman59
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2018, 04:00:35 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on April 08, 2018, 03:58:37 amApple puts an adapter in the box.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 08, 2018, 04:01:49 am
content: Quote from: Bassman59 on April 08, 2018, 04:00:35 amI stand corrected. They have made one good decision.

author: Harb
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2018, 04:27:51 am
content: Apple are awesome......they cant do wrong, and I trust every decision they make

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2018, 04:38:57 am
content: Quote from: Harb on April 08, 2018, 04:27:51 am

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2018, 04:50:21 am
content: Smartphones going USB-C have created a large market for tiny high quality USB DACs. The DAC that came with my Le Pro 3 uses some custom USB 2.0 chip from SaviAudio. Beats the venerable PCM2707 and manages to hold its own against the PCM1792A. (As in it gets into the quality level where it is very difficult to hear the difference.)Quote from: Harb on April 08, 2018, 04:27:51 amWhat they can't seem to do is make a cable that lasts. Or make a mobile device that is friendly to small third party developers.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 08, 2018, 05:28:54 am
content: Quote from: NiHaoMike on April 08, 2018, 04:50:21 amAussie sense of humour... he was joking. :-)

author: ruairi
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2018, 05:29:24 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on April 08, 2018, 03:28:37 amI'd suggest that perhaps you are over qualified to comment, and not at all representative of the typical latter day Apple end user. Apple are optimizing for weight and form factor and they are being rewarded for this design choice. Yes, their modern products are less repairable because of this but most people don't care. The Apple model is built around Applecare and high end support when things do go wrong.If their approach was wrong the company would be in the toilet but they are hugely successful andprofitable(not just "valuable" like so many tech companies).Techies have been whining for years about Apple lagging on raw performance on their laptops and desktops, Intel have been a contributor to that lag. Controlling the chipset is an obvious next step.

author: BrianHG
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2018, 06:24:35 am
content: Quote from: Harb on April 08, 2018, 04:27:51 am

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 08, 2018, 06:57:47 am
content: Quote from: MasterTech on April 08, 2018, 06:30:45 amThat's an overly simplistic way of looking at it. Of course no one is forcing anyone to buy Apple or Microsoft products.Look at it deeper. How often have you heard people say they use Apple products, but often accompanied by a groan and them admitting it's "too hard" to change, especially if those people aren't technically minded. I hear it frequently. I'm going through that exact mindset at the moment with Microsoft Windows. I refuse to use anything beyond Windows 7 because quite frankly, it's utter rubbish. In the coming years, I'm converting my entire workflow and everything I do from Windows to Linux and it's not easy.Apple products are designed for the masses, not power users like it was back in the 1990's where graphics and video was almost exclusively on Apple machines. These days, they make simple to use products, with limited hardware and software support (comparative to PC). Then they turn the screws on their customers to make sure they keep going back, spending more money on Apple products. It's a clever business model, but people are becoming increasingly resentful of being treated like chumps. I think this the reason why Apple have lost the market share when it comes to smart phones.I would have half a mind to actually buy an Intel-based Apple machine if I could just install Windows on it natively without resorting to trickery and messing around or I could just buy off-the-shelf components, remove the old ones and replace them with faster/larger/newer ones. But part of the reason I don't bother is I can build a far more powerful, flexible and stable machine for far less than I would to buy one off Apple.For the most part, consumers of Apple products honestly couldn't give a crap about any of the things I've mentioned or what you and I have said. They buy them because they like them and more power to them. I'm simply pointing out my experiences and some of the reasons why Apple might be going down the path of custom CPUs.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 08, 2018, 07:31:07 am
content: Quote from: BrianHG on April 08, 2018, 06:24:35 amSee - even the Loonies get it.

author: glarsson
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2018, 07:48:21 am
content: Quote from: MasterTech on April 08, 2018, 07:38:14 amWhat do you mean? Apple have never "gone back" when changing processor families.6502 > 68000 > PowerPC > X86 > ARM?

author: PartialDischarge
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2018, 08:09:48 am
content: Quote from: glarsson on April 08, 2018, 07:48:21 amYou are right, "go back" misused here. I meant that whatever switch they make, hope it lasts long

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2018, 02:23:00 pm
content: Quote from: Halcyon on April 08, 2018, 03:28:37 amNo, because you haven't actually answered the question. You made a nonsensical assertion:Quote from: Halcyon on April 08, 2018, 12:41:51 amYou further went on to assert:Quote from: Halcyon on April 08, 2018, 01:32:04 amWhen asked:Quote from: Cerebus on April 08, 2018, 01:47:30 amYou offer an 'I've been in the Industry 20 years and I've seen what Apple are like' argument. You don't actually answer the question as tohowadopting a new processor architecture will have the effect of "forcing them to buy Apple hardware and software".If you've got a proper argument as towhy adopting a new processor architecture will have the effect of "forcing them to buy Apple hardware and software"then make it. If you can't, then I submit you're just Apple bashing by making an unsupportable assertion.It doesn't matter how long you've been in the industry*, what you claim Apple's practices are, if you can't back up your claim with a cogent argument.*For what it's worth, I've been in the industry over 40 years, and was labs manager for one PC magazine and technical editor of another PC magazine before your 'nearly 20 years' experience started.

author: Ampera
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2018, 02:50:23 pm
content: I love these sorts of debates. It's trying to dictate what stupid people should buy.Apple has, since the Lisa, and always has sold specifically to stupid people, and I don't just mean that as an insult. Objectively, they specifically designed their machines for people who were too stupid to operate a CP/M or DOS prompt, and couldn't be arsed to learn how. The flashy windowing system and hipster design made it quite attractive to people who just wanted a computer, and didn't really give a shit about how powerful it was.At the end of the day, if someone wants to buy a Macintosh, or other Apple product, they will. Screeching about it in a forum doesn't make it any better. I'm sure most people in the tech industry with a brain and a general understanding of mathematics could see that a crippled Unix workstation based on the same hardware architecture as the IBM PC, just heavily marked up, is an entirely stupid idea, especially considering you could get a much better Unix experience with a couple of cheap Xeons and a fresh install of FreeBSD, or your choice of now free Unix distro.Idk what Halcyon is on about with forcing people to buy Apple hardware, maybe he means Apple's restrictive ecosystem. At least OS/X doesn't as severely limit what you can do unlike iOS, where the concept of installing your own applications is one that's met with haughty derision, followed by a kind, warm, pat on the back by the jailbreak developers who presumably were stuck with an iPhone after their nan bought them one for Christmas, so decided to make the best out of it. (Maybe a bit of humorous (I hope) projection here, but I'll move on)ARM is best suited for eating next to no power, making very little heat, and kicking ass at very mobile tasks. I wouldn't ask an ARM CPU for a second to do something like proper video editing or any real CPU workloading. This is one reason why I don't fricking trust x86 compatible Windows NT on ARM.x86 is the classic workhorse. Despite being outclassed at times by RISC chips like, well pretty much all of them, they have persevered to become the largest and most significant processor architecture in the industry. Apple abandoning it is another Apple move. They've done it before, and they may do it again. Screaming at people about how bad it it doesn't really do much, it's best to let people find out.The thing that pisses me off about modern Macs is they don't even have any element of class that older Macs did. What I mean by that is you could run a G3/4/5 tower with PCI cards, a custom configuaration, etc. You could run it as it was, a unique RISC Unix workstation with it's own special architecture. As a legacy hardware enthusiast, that just sings to me. Even older NuBus machines like the Macintosh 2 just attract me so much. Today, you just get a load of below the curve parts that they sell without update for years without price cuts. Macintoshes are and always have been the machine for idiots.

author: BradC
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2018, 02:58:21 pm
content: Quote from: TwoOfFive on April 08, 2018, 02:50:23 pmAs I sit and read your post on my Macbook, I'll assume the lack of experience, eloquence and worldliness is a result of your age and means you've not communicated yourself effectively.Heaven forbid someone buys a machine that happens to fit their specific use case.

author: Ampera
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2018, 03:38:34 pm
content: You got a problem with me or something?I'm not wrong. Maybe I'm a bit harsh because that's how I talk in general, but Macintoshes were designed to fit the use cases of people who didn't want to learn the slightest bit of computing, and now they are designed to pull every nickel and dime out of the consumer as possible. There have been entire businesses built around giving the repair support that Apple doesn't even remotely bother with themselves. The exact same hardware I can find in any Macintosh I can find for cheaper, or for par price and faster. They barely even run higher ground with software support.When I say idiot, I use it as an insult mostly out of a matter of crass humor and as a brash description of how I see the situation. Ultimately all of what I said, and almost all of what has been said here is completely subjective. I've bought stuff that definitely makes me an idiot, and I have liked those products. I've plowed probably a grand, if not more into buying old computer parts of E-Bay and assembling them for the fun of it. When I say idiot, I also sort of mean it with a sense of pride, to do something against what people say, just because you like it, even if it might be objectively down in several places.I can't call myself a Macintosh collector, but I do hope to one day have a good collection of Macintoshes. I find something interesting and special about some of the machines, even if some of them weren't up to par to their contemporaries. They are a different world I do like to explore.As a techie, and even someone who enjoys a nice POSIX environment from time to time, I can't think of a single scenario where a Macintosh would do a task better than an alternative on an NT or Unix/Linux machine. That's just me, and I can imagine there are some I haven't thought of. I honestly believe all of the purchases of Macintosh are based on subjection. You like it because of how it feels and it's atmosphere, and while I call you an idiot, I respect you for it.

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2018, 04:08:32 pm
content: Quote from: TwoOfFive on April 08, 2018, 02:50:23 pmThe Lisa was designed after the Apple bods discovered the work being done by Alan Kay at theLearning Research Groupat Xerox PARC. That work was specifically aimed at making computers accessible to non-experts, down to the level of primary school children.If you're going to deride all non-experts as idiots whenever you encounter them, then you're going to spend a lot of time in Emergency Rooms as many of the non-experts will take objection to being called idiots and some of themaredomain experts in short tempers and the use of big fists.And that "flashy windowing system" from Xerox was copied by everybody and his dog. It's called Microsoft "Windows", not Microsoft "DOS Prompt". Ditto "X Windowing System" etc. etc.Alan Kayet almanaged to get average 6 year old children programming on the system they designed, and all the copiers (Apple, Microsoft,...) have failed to produce a system that is properly comprehensible to the average adult, let alone programmable by them. If Apple aim a little closer to the Xerox original (and that's a highly dubious and debatable 'if'), and produce computers usable by 'idiots' then that surely is a good thing unless one wishes, for whatever reason, computing to be the sole preserve of some intellectual elite.

author: edavid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2018, 04:11:47 pm
content: This report raised many questions.The PA Semi team is undoubtedly good, but can they really compete with Intel and AMD's armies of CPU designers? Consider the cumulative man hours that have gone into a current generation X86 CPU core. There's no way even Apple can match that.Also, considering the cold war between Apple and Adobe, would Adobe port the Creative Cloud apps to a new architecture? Or is Apple planning to definitively dump Adobe and build their own Photoshop, Illustrator, InDesign? Neither option seems very plausible.Then there is Windows. I have heard that Boot Camp is actually quite important for corporate sales of Apple hardware. I don't think corporate customers would accept emulated X86, or Windows on ARM, as a solution.My guess is that there will be 2 lines of computers, low end ARM laptops and iMacs running a beefed up iOS (Apple's version of Chromebooks), and higher priced X86 (or hybrid) machines running MacOS.

author: gertux
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2018, 04:16:35 pm
content: Is Apple moving to ARM not the logical next step in their evolution ?Their most profitable business is iPhone/iOS so why wouldn’t they move their desktop machines to ARM and an evolution of iOS ?The gap between an iPad pro and a MacBook is narrowing anyhow.

author: glarsson
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2018, 04:18:02 pm
content: Quote from: TwoOfFive on April 08, 2018, 02:50:23 pmI think you have identified the wrong group as stupid.Quote from: TwoOfFive on April 08, 2018, 02:50:23 pmWhy do you call a workstation running a certified UNIX crippled and instead recommend various uncertified UNIX distributions?

author: Ampera
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2018, 04:28:15 pm
content: Would it help if I apologized?I see your various points. When I say idiot, it's more of a jab than anything serious. The same way someone who supports an opposing sports team is an idiot, someone who is an Apple fanboy is an idiot.I guess OS/X isn't that crippled. I'd have a much better time with pretty much any other version of Unix.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2018, 04:36:39 pm
content: I was always a PC guy, never cared for Macs, and then I ended up accumulating a number of vintage 68k Macs along side my vintage PC gear and then I really started to appreciate just how far ahead the Macs were at the time. 640x480 256 color graphics with 8 bit sound and everything plug n play (that actually worked) back when I was using DOS on a primitive VGA graphics system that could do 640x480 with a paltry 16 colors, sound through a beeper and fighting with IRQ, DMA and address settings. The Mac came standard with SCSI, it could use the entire installed memory without silly tricks, it was polished. There's a good reason why it became the defacto standard in the graphic arts industry.PCs did eventually catch up, but through a period from the late 80s through the mid 90s the Mac was so far ahead it's not even funny. Where they failed most is in not encouraging or in fact even discouraging game development. Steve Jobs notably said "The Mac is not a toy" which ignores the fact that in the consumer market gaming has long been a major driver of PC purchases and upgrades.Something that has bothered me for decades is how much time and effort people spend childishly promoting their platform of choice while bashing the other platform, instead of actually doing something useful with their computer.

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2018, 04:44:41 pm
content: With NT the Mac OS was made to look quite archaic for a while as well, they've both had their periods of complacency.My main problem with the Mac is that their vertical integration is poison to the industry, it will make it so very very boring. Windows even at its peak because their relative laisse faire attitude towards hardware was a vehicle for innovation in a way Apple will never be. Their dominance is rather scary.PS. also Apple's use of patents/IP is even more obnoxious than Microsoft. Rounded corners, look and feel, their habit of just trying to dam off technology with kitchen sink type patents with clearly no research behind it ... bleh.

author: Jeroen3
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2018, 04:53:47 pm
content: This is some really bad news for Intel.Quote from: NiHaoMike on April 08, 2018, 01:07:04 amThere is a legacy reason. Everything was and up until recently still is being made for x86.Only the last decade saw a major change. In 2007, the iPhone was released and created the App Developers.This is a major group of ARM programmers, optimizing for low power and memory targets.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2018, 05:16:45 pm
content: Quote from: ataradov on April 08, 2018, 12:55:48 amIt will depend on how fast an ARM CPU can be if it dissipates 50 to 90 Watts. Most of the ARM stuff we see around today is limited at a few Watt max.

author: TerraHertz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2018, 05:37:29 pm
content: Maybe Apple got sick of building machines with inescapable CPU-harware level backdoors courtesy of Intel, and are determined to instead build machines with all-new Apple proprietary CPU-hardware level backdoors.

author: Bicurico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2018, 06:04:46 pm
content: The future is Cloud computing and Pay-Per-Use. The industry wants people to have thin client computers and pay subscription and pay per use services. That is how they can have maximum profit, especially on closed platforms. Most applications are mature and there is no real need for maintenance contracts or purchasing new versions. Heck, many here on this forum still use Windows XP. Why? Because it is good enough! Same with Office and CAD/CAM products. What have been the top 5 new features of CATIA (considered the "best" CAD software) in the last 5 years? I have no idea!And the truth is that 75% of all internet connected users would be perfectly happy to use an iOS/Android style device with keyboard. As said in this thread before: Apple users normally don't care about hardware and OS, they just want to USE the computer, NOT KNOW how it works.So, apart from the "fan-boy discussion, if Apple is great or not", the intention of dropping x86/x64 in favor of Arm might be a real indicator that the future is now, unfortunately. This thought actually scares me, since it means losing more and more control over privacy in all kind of forms, plus people will understand less and less how things work.Regards,Vitor

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2018, 06:35:31 pm
content: Quote from: Bicurico on April 08, 2018, 06:04:46 pmThat's where Microsoft wants to drive it. Apple has no horse in that race, since they make their money on hardware.QuoteAny sane company which can operate without an internet connection would be insane to go to the cloud if it's not absolutely necessary and it won't be. The past, present and future for most sanely run companies will be mainframing, or as they call it nowadays Local Cloud

author: mtdoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2018, 06:36:54 pm
content: Quote from: TwoOfFive on April 08, 2018, 04:28:15 pmYes, it's that kind of tribalism that leads to these pointless my OS is better than your OS arguments. (as well as my political party/country is better than yours, etc. arguments.)QuoteHorses for courses. There's plenty of hard core Unix/Linux geeks who chose to use OSX as their GUI in addition to lots of time spent with the command line.Quote from: james_s on April 08, 2018, 04:36:39 pmThat's right. At the time I was working at as a lecturer and research assistant at UC Berkeley. Part of my responsibility was purchasing and supporting a whole fleet of computers used for data acquisition and display (primarily using NI daq boards and LabView). The Mac specs where better at the time.As someone whose been using both Apple computers (First Apple II then Macs) and DOS/Windows for 40 years, these continual Mac versus Windows arguments are tiresome - with the same tired arguments of the haters on either side. I continue to enjoy using both depending on the task - with a house that currently has 3 Macs, 6 Windows (2 XP, 3 W7, 1 W10), plus 2 IPads and 3 Android tablets. Horses for courses.I'm glad to hear Apple is moving to their own CPUs. It will be interesting to see what this brings. Intel has gotten a bit stale IMHO.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 08, 2018, 08:35:14 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on April 08, 2018, 04:36:39 pmYou are absolutely correct! Especially regarding your last point. It seems the Apple lovers out there seem to get their knickers in a knot every time someone is critical of their beloved platform, I suspect that it's because they've spent so much money locking themselves into a particular 'ecosystem' (whether they knew it at the time or not) and now find it difficult to revert to anything else.When you put forth an argument, they revert to the old "oh you haven't provided proof", "you just have something against Apple"... and so it goes...

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2018, 09:28:10 pm
content: Both sides do that. Apple does have more of a cult following but I know lots of Mac users who are not stereotypical Mac cult members, they just like the machine for one reason or another and I have no reason to care. I myself am very happy with my Lenovo but it's not perfect either. Mac, PC, Linux, they are more similar than ever before, and all can do more or less the same tasks.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 09, 2018, 01:00:59 am
content: Everyone should remember that until Apple makes an announcement about this, it's nothing more than unsubstantiated speculation. I'd take it as a given that Apple has an ARM version of macOS running internally, but this alone is not indicative that they will make the jump. Apple made an x86 version of System 7 "just in case" and never used it, and made x86 versions of Mac OS X for almost 10 years "just in case" before announcing a switch to Intel.Apple knows very well that running on the Intel architecture has been a huge boon to the Mac, with Windows (and to a lesser extent Linux) VMs having facilitated the Mac's introduction into many environments. Similarly, running on Intel has also allowed for WINE (and more importantly, its commercial counterparts, Crossover and above all TransGaming's Cider engine), which have formed the platform for nearly all Mac game releases in the past 10 years. Abandoning Intel for ARM would be a huge loss in this regard.Additionally, as it was explained to me by an OpenBSD kernel developer, the ARM architecture has (compared to Intel, PPC, m68k, etc) some significant limitations regarding how it handles hardware enumeration or dynamic kernel module loading or something, the upshot being there has to be a specific OS build for a given hardware configuration, without the possibility of a build for multiple models. Unless Apple fundamentally changed this in its ARM implementation, it would make any expandable Mac impossible (including Thunderbolt, which is essentially PCIe over a serial cable).Quote from: james_s on April 08, 2018, 09:28:10 pmHaving sold Macs for years, I can agree and expand: thevastmajority of Mac users are not "cult members", they just want a computer that works without fuss. And frankly, that's been the case from the beginning. The "cult" myth is based largely on a small percentage of super enthusiastic users, who do not actually represent the majority. But every platform has those. People's perception of Apple is wildly distorted due to the bizarre way the media treats Apple, schizophrenically bouncing between adulation and baseless criticism, since they a) know that putting "Apple" in a headline will get reads, regardless of what the article says, and b) fundamentally do not understand the reasons behind Apple's success.Quote from: Halcyon on April 08, 2018, 08:35:14 pmIf there is resistance to argue with you, it's got nothing to do with buyer's remorse or investment in the platform. It has to do with years of stupid arguments with Apple haters who argue with you based on stereotypes, myths, and willful misinformation. We get defensive because of being constantly attacked and dismissed as "idiot" (we're not) cult-like lemmings (we're not) who are "too stupid" (we're not) to use "real computers" (Macsarereal computers) and "wasted" money on "overpriced" (also untrue, given lower TCO and the value of time), when in fact we merely like using devices that work with less fuss, or just work in a way we prefer. In my experience, the majority of people who "discuss" Apple and its products and are not actually Apple users themselves, do so with little basis in facts and reality. (I've been a Mac user since 1992, FWIW, and have heard every myth in the book, and then some…)To be sure, there's misinformation among Apple users about the competition, but I don't think it'squiteas factually untethered from reality.As for the ecosystem argument: everyone has some kind of investment in a platform, meaning that switching will incur some kind of cost, be it monetary (re-buying things you already have for the existing platform), time, learning, etc. It is eminently reasonable to factor this into a decision, and certainly isn't a valid reason to deride someone for staying on a platform. For example, I have a significant investment in hardware and time on the Nikon camera platform, and so there would have to be some massively huge benefit to switching to justify the cost of rebuying hardware and spending the time to practice with the new hardware until I knew it as intimately as I do the Nikon gear. Does this mean I hate Canon or Sony, etc? Not at all. But the friction to switching is significant.Finally, as always, we mustn't forget that we are, by definition, not "normal" users. We are engineering types, and as such, atypical compared to the 95%. Most people don't know how computers work, don't want to know, and don't need to know. They need a tool they can use which has been designed to eliminate errors (or allow recovery from them) with as little learning curve as possible — basically, a tool that gets out of the way. The Mac's designers understood this from the beginning, Windows' designers learned this eventually, and these days Mac, Windows, iOS, and Android are all reasonably good for the typical user. (The open source world like Linux, on the other hand, is struggling to wrap its head around this concept.)

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 09, 2018, 01:12:41 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on April 08, 2018, 06:57:47 amUhhhh…. what? Boot Camp is Apple's Windows installer tool, which prepares the Mac to dual-boot a bare-metal Windows installation, and then provides all the drivers for the hardware so you don't have to scour the web for them. No "trickery" involved.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 09, 2018, 01:29:23 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on April 09, 2018, 01:22:13 amOther than the trackpad driver (where Apple has always only provided a barebones driver for Windows, sadly), none of those things negate my reply: no "trickery" is involved to install Windows. Your complaints have nothing to do with the installation process, and indeed may be of zero consequence to many users.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 09, 2018, 02:28:09 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on April 09, 2018, 01:40:19 amI said it MAY be of zero consequence to many users. Not that it WILL, and not to ALL users. In other words: Not talking about you specifically.Again: I was dispelling someone else's incorrect assumptions about the Boot Camp installation process. They, and I, made no claims about its file sharing capabilities.

author: Bassman59
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 09, 2018, 02:42:00 am
content: Quote from: tooki on April 09, 2018, 01:12:41 amI've never even bothered with Boot Camp. I use VMWare, and it works well enough. By that, I mean, it runs Windows 7 Pro with no fuss, and in that environment, it runs the software I need. That is: Altium, Xilinx ISE and Vivado, Lattice Diamond, MicroSemi's tools, ModelSim, and for my other life, the off-line editors for Avid, Midas and DiGiCo professional audio mixing consoles.And yes, the various USB JTAG dongles all work in the virtual environment.

author: Nusa
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 09, 2018, 02:45:09 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on April 08, 2018, 01:32:04 amThat wasn't the bottom-line reason in the past. Back in the old Mac vs PC days, one had to buy the hardware the software you needed ran on. A number of the leading packages of the day only ran on one or the other. Used to be ALL the professional A/V people had macs, because that's where the best software was for a long time. They also stuck with the BetaMax up to the digital age, even after VHS won the consumer market battle, because it was the better technology. But that's another story.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 09, 2018, 03:12:30 am
content: Quote from: Nusa on April 09, 2018, 02:45:09 am"Better" is subjective, VHS offered substantially longer play times which is something that was important to a lot of consumers. It's also worth noting that the short lived Betamax home format was quite different than the professional Betacam format that saw long term success in professional fields.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 09, 2018, 11:43:09 am
content: Could we please have this thread be about the new Apple plans, rather making it yet another generic pro versus con Apple thread?

author: Nusa
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 09, 2018, 12:16:21 pm
content: Do we actually KNOW anything beyond what the title says? It seems to all be speculation at this point. There are even some that say it's only a bluff to put pressure on Intel pricing.

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 09, 2018, 12:36:08 pm
content: Quote from: Halcyon on April 09, 2018, 11:11:07 amIf they weren't such assholes about repairability and third party repairs, the limited number of models could make repair of macbooks very cheap. They shoot themselves in the foot for minimum extra profit ... I dislike Apple though, so more power to them.

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 09, 2018, 12:42:18 pm
content: Quote from: Nusa on April 09, 2018, 12:16:21 pmThey steal employees from the NSA to control their leakers, speculation is probably the best we can expect till third party software developers are involved.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 10, 2018, 06:20:43 am
content: Quote from: Marco on April 09, 2018, 12:36:08 pmPrecisely. Louis Rossmann sums that up nicely in this video... it's not just specific to "Error 53", it's specific to a whole myriad of problems and design failures that plague Apple devices. This is why I raised the point earlier, if Apple are switching from Intel to ARM or some other type of CPU, I bet they aren't doing it for you, the customer.Louis' comments in this video apply pretty much across the board when it comes to Apple...

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 10, 2018, 08:34:14 am
content: I don't buy the hate. Stuff fails. Recently my iPhone 6s died. First the screen developed a white spot, then a chunk of the screen died. Walked in Apple Store, walked out with a brand new handset in 30 minutes. £0 spent. No argument. Try any other vendor for that one. All daily use tech has a lifetime of 2 years at most. Take the AppleCare and use it (or use consumer legislation in the UK). After 2 years, sell the damn thing and buy a new thing. Never do you have to employ the likes of Louis Rossman to do hooky last minute hacks and repairs then. If you can't afford to do that, pick another platform but TCO works out about the same over a couple of years.Third party repairs are literally a shitfest. It's not worth it.Apple are doing this change so they have control over the architecture and engineering, nothing more. It's much more difficult to integrate a 3rd party CPU which is poorly documented (Intel!) into a design than build on your mobile core experience.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 10, 2018, 09:35:15 am
content: Quote from: bd139 on April 10, 2018, 08:34:14 amYou bought insurance for your phone in the form of AppleCare, so it seems obvious that they'll honour that and replace your phone. There have been reports by consumer organisations that Apple isn't so forthcoming when it's just regular consumer laws.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 10, 2018, 09:50:33 am
content: They are because my other half got hers replaced no questions asked and she doesn't have AppleCare. This is UK though so YMMV elsewhere.The only reason I bought it was to get the priority replacement service where they send you a new device out first by mail. Downtime costs me money.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 10, 2018, 10:12:47 am
content: Quote from: bd139 on April 10, 2018, 09:50:33 amConsumer law is basically the same all over Europe. I don't doubt there are examples of people getting easy replacements and have seen some cases myself, but I've also seen the opposite happen. These consumer organisations don't speak up for no reason.Tl;dr: getting a no hassle replacement is not a given. This seems to apply to whatever manufacturer.

author: jazz
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 10, 2018, 11:29:05 am
content: Looked for some benchmarks and found these Geekbench scores:Apple A11 (iPhone X): 4205 single core / 10123 multi core (6 cores, but 4 of them low power)Intel Core i7-7920HQ (top 2017 MacBook Pro): 4261 single core / 14176 multi core (4 cores + ht)Intel Core i7-7700K (top 2017 non-pro iMac): 5705 single core / 18773 multi core (4 cores + ht)That's actually a similar single core performance to the MacBook and 73% of the iMac's single core performance.They could probably improve the multi core performance by making a chip with more high performance cores instead of the low power cores. On the desktop there might be room for higher clock rates due to better cooling etc.Also, Apple has improved their chip's performance by at least 25% every year for the last couple of years (by their own account anyway).Benchmark links:https://browser.geekbench.com/ios_devices/52(iPhone X)https://browser.geekbench.com/processors/2040(i7-7920HQ)https://browser.geekbench.com/processors/1779(i7-7700K)

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 10, 2018, 11:58:51 am
content: Quote from: bd139 on April 10, 2018, 08:34:14 amI have to disagree. The iPhone 6 series are among the biggest pieces of crap I've ever used. They all eventually develop LCD problems (among others). You were lucky, I've used phones where the touch just responds randomly to different things (or not at all). I also don't agree that daily-use technology lasts 2 years, it SHOULD last longer. I've owned Blackberry's, LG, Sony and Motorola smart phones, all of them (including the batteries) lasted far longer than 2 years. The only time I replace my phone is when new functionality that I could actually use comes out or the handset fails.Also in Australia, other than phone support,AppleCaredoesn't give you anything more than what is already guaranteed under consumer law for free. AppleCare is essentially an extended warranty and with consumer gear, it's almost always a total waste of money.Louis Rossmann has made a business out of these repairs because Apple refuse to touch them and I reckon he knows a hell of a lot more than those guys in the "Genius Bar". I don't always agree with the method on which he goes about some of his repairs, but who am I to judge? It's not always pretty, it's not always "best practice" but he gets it done and actually takes the time to look after his customers, unlike Apple.In one recent case, a single resistor was the cause of the problem, Apple quoted $750 for the repair (which was blindly, swap out the main board, toss out the old one). In another case a single crumb of food in the JTAG port caused the entire machine not to even boot. How is this good design? Going back to my point from page 1, Apple couldn't give a shit. They charge too much for their products which really aren't any better than other consumer brands out there and they get enough repeat business due to clever marketing and locking their users into a specific system.Apple was great in the 1980's and 1990's. They were actually innovative and had products in the market which shat all over the competition. In the last decade or so they just churn out rubbish, even to the point where some of their machines look like actualgarbage cans.

author: BradC
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 10, 2018, 12:26:02 pm
content: Quote from: Halcyon on April 10, 2018, 11:58:51 amOr providing hardware/software their users are happy with at a price they are willing to pay.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 10, 2018, 12:48:31 pm
content: Quote from: Halcyon on April 10, 2018, 11:58:51 amCrumb in the back of your Fluke 87V will do the same. High Z stuff needs to be kept clean.

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 10, 2018, 12:52:37 pm
content: Quote from: jazz on April 10, 2018, 11:29:05 amThere are some "small" differences between Geekbench microbenchmarks and more holistic benchmarkssuch as Tabletmark.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 10, 2018, 12:55:44 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on April 10, 2018, 12:48:31 pmUnderstood. However Fluke 87V vs. a Macbook... Kind of a different league of product. I'm generalising here but I suspect that most people using a Macbook to watch "the Youtubes" wouldn't know what a Fluke was or how they are used.An analogy I like to use: Apple products are for those who like drawing with crayons. Simple and easy to use (when they work) but that's about it.

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 10, 2018, 01:20:28 pm
content: Quote from: Halcyon on April 10, 2018, 11:58:51 amName any one example of a manufacturer of consumer electronics that does component level repair of their products. They all do board level swaps. It's unfair to single Apple out for this criticism.

author: PartialDischarge
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 10, 2018, 01:37:43 pm
content: Quote from: Halcyon on April 10, 2018, 12:55:44 pmSeriously Halcyon, we got the point long time ago that Apple is the root of evil, stupidity and awry engineering in the world, but please stop embarrassing yourself

author: Nusa
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 10, 2018, 01:44:55 pm
content: Quote from: Cerebus on April 10, 2018, 01:20:28 pmAnd to be fair this is an efficient way to do warranty service. Many of them, including Apple, THEN do component level repair at a central location on boards deemed easy to repair...creating working boards for future swaps. Non-warranty service is where such a system no longer works well for customers, fee-wise, and gives third-party repair services an opportunity to make a few bucks.

author: jazz
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 10, 2018, 02:21:28 pm
content: Quote from: Marco on April 10, 2018, 12:52:37 pmTrue, definitely a different picture there, and I'll admit that i didn't search too hard for different kinds of benchmarks. Even the CPU scores of the other benchmarks in your link look very different. I guess I was hoping for Geekbench to allow for a mostly CPU-centered comparison, to see how good their ARM cores are in relation to Intel CPUs, but now I feel like I don't know anything more than I did before.

author: Horusaem
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: April 10, 2018, 02:26:18 pm
content: HmmmIt makes sense , swap from the expensive CPU to a Cheaper CPU but keep the price as it wasAnd to avoid Intel vs Meme You know who warI`ll enD here

author: glarsson
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 10, 2018, 03:04:00 pm
content: Makes sense to switch from a cpu manufacturer that is constantly late with new features and performance, to their own cpu where they controls the time plan and features.

author: AlfBaz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 10, 2018, 03:31:44 pm
content: Makes sense to switch from a cpu manufacturer where everybody can get the data sheet and see the features and instruction set, to their own cpu where they control the back doors into your personal data that nobody will ever find.Data mining is a veritable goldmine. Why then, use the same pick and shovel everyone else is usingMy tinfoil hat contribution for the day

author: AlfBaz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 10, 2018, 03:35:02 pm
content: Quote from: MasterTech on April 10, 2018, 01:37:43 pmTo be honest, I find it refreshing to see there are people who refuse to drink the KoolaidQuote from: AlfBaz on April 10, 2018, 03:31:44 pmMaybe not

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 10, 2018, 03:43:11 pm
content: Quote from: AlfBaz on April 10, 2018, 03:35:02 pmYou realise some of us actually run companies off the kit and have hundreds of devices and are far more experienced than the cock wagglers.Quote from: Halcyon on April 10, 2018, 12:55:44 pmYep. And when we're not paining with the crayons, we're being part of the security community, computer scientists, Google employees, hardware engineers and finance sector etc.It's just a Unix machine ffs.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 10, 2018, 03:43:32 pm
content: My experience with ARM embedded Linux systems goes a while back and I can confirm what others have said: ARM has been focusing for years in the power efficiency region of the spectrum and only somewhat recently (ARMv8-A 64-bit) started implementing some of the long existing features of its Intel brethren such as out of order execution, superscalar pipeline and branch prediction, which can be power hungry. Although some seem to scale well (low 2GHz for quad core and hi 2GHz for dual core), I couldn't yet see a physical device implementation of these cores exclusively for high end computing with advanced memory controllers (anything other than LPDDR3/4), larger than 64-bit memory buses and gobs of L3 cache.The road is long but not impossible. However, at this time Intel and AMD still have many years (decades?) ahead in expertise.

author: AlfBaz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 10, 2018, 03:53:33 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on April 10, 2018, 03:43:11 pmMust be something of a cultural divide between poms and ausies, because bragging about running companies and having hundreds if things is, in Oz at least, the very definition of flopping it out and swinging it round

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 10, 2018, 05:20:12 pm
content: Quote from: AlfBaz on April 10, 2018, 03:53:33 pmThe difference is being full of hot air or having a lot of useful and relevant experience. Who knows about the practical useability and reliability of a product? Someone with experience with a large sample group. The internet is full of people who huff and puff and base themselves on how loudly their cat purrs and how much traffic there was this morning.

author: edy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 10, 2018, 06:51:53 pm
content: Quote from: Halcyon on April 08, 2018, 06:57:47 amIt's not easy, you are right. I did this about 1.5 years ago and managed to completely transition to Ubuntu with all my machines and have never looked back. I say I can do 99% of what I need on Linux, using a lot of very good free apps. LibreOffice is a great MS Office replacement, and there are lots of desktop publishing and photo apps (Krita, Scribus, GIMP, Pinta to name a few), tons of audio/video editing apps (SoundForge, KDenLive, HandBrake, etc), programming stuff, even some "must have" Windows programs will run under WINE directly.... but just for kicks I also installed VirtualBox to run WinXP Mode, Windows 10, Mac OS High Sierra and Android for PC... so apps think they are running on the native OS directly (virtualized) and work perfectly if WINE can't handle them.Regarding Apple, they don't need to abandon Intel to make their machines more difficult to upgrade/emulate/copy/secure. It's not like there is a huge number of Hackintoshes around or people dual-booting Windows on their Intel Mac. It must be that they can churn out more profit spinning their own chip, as they do with the iPhone/iPad line. They may see these all "converging" in the future as the power in phones/tablets/PC's increases. Also, Apple only makes a small profit from their PC business... most of their profit is from iPhone and iPad sales. Just look here:https://www.statista.com/statistics/382260/segments-share-revenue-of-apple/If anything, their PC business as a percentage of their overall profit is small and diminishing. This cannot be to "lock in" more people, that's already happened a long time ago, or to punish Intel (thinking they are a major competitor - given Samsung makes a lot of the screens for Apple also). I think Apple has some proprietary features they want to integrate and perhaps converge through their entire product line at the chip level for maximum performance and they feel it would be best to spin their own chips just like they do for the iPad and iPhone, and perhaps shave a few dollars off the BOM too (although I can't see this small gain in profit being a reason).Oh yeah... and here:https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-04-02/apple-is-said-to-plan-move-from-intel-to-own-mac-chips-from-2020... and I quote ....Quote

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 10, 2018, 08:36:46 pm
content: Quote from: MasterTech on April 10, 2018, 01:37:43 pmTouched a nerve did I? I was simply expanding on some of the comments in this thread. You don't have to agree with them (or even read them). I'm not at all embarrassed and stand by my comments. Nothing I've said here are things I haven't said before and if/when Apple change their attitude back to the way it used to be, I'll continue to think the way I do. Also, the things I've pointed out here are things I hear time and time again from users, so it's not just me.I get that humour doesn't easily translate from text back into real-life, so don't take my tongue-in-cheek comments literally.It seems those that take a critical view on Apple (or any other manufacturer) are labelled as "Apple bashing" or a "hater", "troll" etc... once the counter-arguments have run out. I've used PCs/Microsoft products since I was a child. I hate what Microsoft are doing to Windows, but I'll gladly throw my hand up and say it in a room full of professionals like myself. I have no shame in admitting that the Operating System I've grown up with, learned inside-out, back-to-front is now a steaming pile of crap.

author: Bassman59
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 10, 2018, 09:41:08 pm
content: Quote from: Halcyon on April 10, 2018, 12:55:44 pmExcept that your analogy is demonstrably false, and also reveals more about you than about those who buy Apple's products.

author: Bassman59
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 10, 2018, 09:50:07 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on April 10, 2018, 03:43:11 pmIt's a Unix machine which has had a consistent user interface going back decades, unlike Linux, which has so many GUI options it's impossible to keep up.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 10, 2018, 09:51:42 pm
content: Quote from: edy on April 10, 2018, 06:51:53 pmIt looks like Apple and Microsoft are basically trying to do the same thing. Microsoft is trying to unify traditional desktop with mobile computing by making the desktop mobile compatible, while Apple is trying to the same by making the desktop more mobile compatible. Both make sense, looking at where the companies come from. Microsoft is the alpha and omega on the desktop and has a feeble or even non-existent grip on the mobile market, and expands from there. Meanwhile, Apple's profits have consistently shifted from desktop to mobile devices, with their interest desktop devices slowly fading away. It only makes sense to absorb the suffering platform into the successful one.Considering Microsoft has a partnership with Qualcomm and is already releasing samples to the press, I'd say they have a decent head start. If these two players decide this is going to be the next thing it's quite likely to happen. Now if only they would the cloud thing go and focus on this.

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 10, 2018, 11:09:35 pm
content: I wonder what Intel will make of all this though. If both Microsoft and Apple are treacherous partners, isn't it about time they find some decent OS competition to sell their processors to consumers?I like Linux and all, I'm running it now, but other than as a component in Chromebooks I'd not dare to recommend it to any of the normies I know ... and with the Facebook drama it's only a matter of time before Google faces backlash too. A version of Ubuntu with the same level of polish and QA as Chromebooks and an appstore with quality control and modern sandboxing technology would be nice. Intel might want to spend some money and make it a reality.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 10, 2018, 11:17:15 pm
content: I have a very limited exposure to Apple products - but that experience was not comfortable.At one stage I was looking to do some website development and I thought "What mobile platform should I consider?" At the time, Apple seemed prominent, so when I came up for a new phone, I went with an iPhone 4. It was the cheapest option on a plan with Optus at the time.While I found the device functional, what I did NOT like was having to install iTunesjust to activate the bloody thing. That piece of software just stepped in and took control of a whole series of functionality that I simply did not need and did not want. Took me a while to tame it and work around it - but that was something I should not have had to deal with.It was a grand day when I moved back to an Android device. I just fitted the SIM card and turned it on.The Apple tech may have been OK - but I object to being wrapped up in a straight jacket and led around by the nose./rant

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 10, 2018, 11:30:39 pm
content: An ARM core with performance comparable to x86 will not be power competitive with existing lower power ARM cores so a separate design will be required. Is the MacOS laptop and desktop market large enough to make that economical especially considering that it means excluding high performance x86 software? This problem is why Apple dropped 68k for PowerPC and then PowerPC for x86.They way Apple has allowed the Macintosh line of systems to languish over the past few years does not bode well for the economics of designing a high performance ARM core for them.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 10, 2018, 11:45:08 pm
content: Quote from: Brumby on April 10, 2018, 11:17:15 pmYes, itunes was horrible for a long time. I don't think that's required any more, though.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 11, 2018, 12:47:04 am
content: Quote from: Bassman59 on April 10, 2018, 09:41:08 pmIndeed it does. I accept the compliment.Quote from: Brumby on April 10, 2018, 11:17:15 pmI think iTunes is still required to perform some basic tasks, like copying files to/from the handset and creating backups.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2018, 12:51:58 am
content: Quote from: David Hess on April 10, 2018, 11:30:39 pmThey have made some really stupid design choices in recent years. IMHO the touchpads are WAY too big on the current gen MBPs, and the OS went from slick and polished to ugly and blah shortly after Jobs died. I really liked the slick glossy look of iOS6, then iOS7 came out and had that bland half baked Android look. Then the same bland look spread to OSX and Microsoft jumped on the bandwagon and managed to out-bland Apple when they released Win8. I look forward to the day when the fashion winds shift yet again.

author: BradC
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2018, 01:24:02 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on April 11, 2018, 12:47:04 amI use my iPad and iPhone and have never installed iTunes. Backups are done to a Sandisk iExpand or via libimobiledevice. Calendars and contacts are managed via activesync. Goodreader handles my document library. Music / video is handled through vlc or a couple of other apps.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2018, 05:26:06 pm
content: Quote from: Brumby on April 10, 2018, 11:17:15 pmFYI, the iPhone 4 was the last one to launch with the iTunes requirement. iPhone 4S and later can activate themselves. (I am not entirely sure whether earlier iPhones, once upgraded to iOS 5 [the 4S's launch OS), also eschew the iTunes activation requirement.)I used to defend iTunes, but honestly, in the past few years, the attempts to clean up its interface have made it into a mess. :/

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2018, 05:32:14 pm
content: Quote from: Halcyon on April 10, 2018, 08:36:46 pmJust because you've said something before doesn't make it any less wrong now!"The way it used to be"? The criticisms you make are the same ones Apple haters have been making since the 1980s. Apple has been remarkably consistent over the decades.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2018, 05:34:07 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on April 11, 2018, 05:26:06 pmiTunes is shit. Don’t use it myself.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 11, 2018, 08:28:10 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on April 11, 2018, 05:32:14 pmWhat!? Now who's throwing around wild claims? I actually liked Apple's hardware back in the 1980's and 90's. It was actually well built (much of it still lasting today). The design decisions were well thought out. These days the same cannot be said. They are plagued with issues which just shouldn't exist for an experienced technology company. Just because you have a nice shiny aluminium chassis, doesn't make it good.I will say in the last decade or two, Apple have been consistent, it's just that consistency leaves little to be desired. I'll leave it at that.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2018, 08:33:06 pm
content: It was crap. I don't think you used it. MacOS was a co-operatively tasked pile of shit that hung 100 times a day, all the peripherals were proprietary (ADB / NUbus), bugs galore and the network stack was made out of boiled kraken excrement. The hardware was junk as well. I had nothing but shit from it.It only started looking good when they basically ripped all that up and started using COTS peripherals and replacing it all with NEXTstep on the FreeBSD/mach hybrid (OSX).Edit: to add fuel to the fire. Even a hacked up Amiga 1500 was a better machine.

author: glarsson
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2018, 08:40:59 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on April 11, 2018, 08:33:06 pmTrue, but the common alternative was MS-DOS with a bunch of TSR-prograns, some memory managers, and a co-operatively tasked pile of shit Windows on top.At that time I was running Unix on a 68008 and 1024x768 graphics.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2018, 08:47:51 pm
content: Yes Unix was the best solution, but entirely unaffordable for most. I had shell access to a Sun SPARCserver however.I had a few computers then. Until late 1990s when NT took over for me, I was using an Acorn RISCPC. That shat on the lot.

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2018, 09:55:11 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on April 11, 2018, 08:33:06 pmJust for the sake of accuracy: NuBus was standardised as IEEE 1196 a while before Apple adopted it, and had been in prior use by Lisp Machines, Western Digital, Texas Instruments and, I think, Motorola. It wasn't exactly a thriving eco-system, even though in theory it was an open standard. ADB however isalldown to Apple.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2018, 10:09:10 pm
content: IEEE 1196 you had to buy the spec for. That's not open

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 12, 2018, 04:43:25 pm
content: Quote from: glarsson on April 11, 2018, 08:40:59 pmIf you mean the 1990s, the less common alternative for the common man was Slackware. Quite incipient HW support, although it worked well on my 486DX-33 with a Trident 1024kB at 1024x768 interlaced on my NEC Multisync 3D (if you got the settings wrong your display would fry - these were the days).Quote from: bd139 on April 11, 2018, 10:09:10 pmWell, technically free != open...

author: glarsson
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 12, 2018, 05:20:00 pm
content: Quote from: rsjsouza on April 12, 2018, 04:43:25 pmNo. In 1990 I upgraded to a Sun workstation with a SPARC processor.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 12, 2018, 06:24:23 pm
content: SPARCstation FTW. Proper Unix. With beards and everything.I loved sun4c/m/d machines.

author: glarsson
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 12, 2018, 08:13:40 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on April 12, 2018, 06:24:23 pmYes, but no beard here.Bought a SPARCStation IPC in 1990, a SS20 in 1995 and Ultra60 in 2000. Then the workstations were no longer available from Sun - the only remaining SPARC systems were noisy wind tunnels for the server room. The Ultra60 was therefore replaced by Mac Pro with PowerPC G5 processors and that one was later replaced by a Mac Pro with Intel Xenon processors. Certified UNIX all the way.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 12, 2018, 09:33:25 pm
content: SS20 was my favourite machine. Had one in the office with dual Ross hypersparcs in it. Alas I went NT after that for a bit and then Linux actually wasn’t a pile of crap any more. Then Apple when the first plastic intel MacBooks came out. Now I drive Linux machines from Mac and NT.Had a flirt with HPUX as well but that was not something I remember fondly.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 12, 2018, 09:47:39 pm
content: Quote from: glarsson on April 12, 2018, 08:13:40 pmI have a SparcStation IPC currently acting as a book-end on my shelf. It even worked last time I powered it up, though I suspect the battery in the Dallas chip is dead by now, stupid design choice on an otherwise lovely system. I got mine for free when it was already old but I recall they were shockingly expensive when new. I have a few other Sun boxes from that era too, interesting hardware but sadly much less powerful than a lowly Raspberry Pi now.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 13, 2018, 12:21:32 am
content: Quote from: james_s on April 12, 2018, 09:47:39 pmI've successfully used theDallas DS12887+as a drop-in replacement for the old Dallas RTC modules in old machines before. Not sure which one the SparcStation uses, but you might be able to find a new replacement.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 13, 2018, 01:37:20 am
content: Quote from: glarsson on April 12, 2018, 05:20:00 pmLiving in a peripheric economy (Brazil), anything else other than PCs was unattainable for private citizens, thus SPARCs were a complete different game in terms of uniqueness.Despite this, SPARCs were quite popular in academia. I started TCP/IP development in Sparcstations 4 and 5 at the end of the 1990s.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 13, 2018, 01:51:33 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on April 13, 2018, 12:21:32 amThere is/was a newer "compatible" Dallas part but for reasons not entirely clear to me it doesn't work in the old Sun machines. It is possible to hack a new battery into the existing part but the problem is that when the battery dies some information required for the machine to boot is lost and it's a pain to get it all set up again. I haven't looked into it in about 10 years but I remember spending a couple hours messing with another old Sun box with that issue before giving up.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 13, 2018, 08:09:20 am
content: I did NVRAM in some ultra 1’s. Just dropped a replacement IC in. Can’t remember doing any major config.

author: brucehoult
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 22, 2018, 02:41:18 am
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on April 08, 2018, 12:51:56 amExactly. What appears to have leaked is that Apple is planning to stop using Intel, and probably x86.That doesn't mean they're going to go to ARM.Not even unifying macOS and iOS means going to ARM. New iOS XCode projects have defaulted to compiling to llvm IR and being uploaded to the AppStore that way for several years already. You can change them to compile to native aarch64 code, but I'd bet most people don't. With watchOS and tvOS you don't have the choice -- only llvm IR is accepted for upload. I'm expecting Apple to remove the option to upload as ARM code and only accept llvm IR any time now -- last year they forced everything to be 64 bit, so maybe this year it will be forcing everything to be llvm.At that point they can use any CPU architecture they want. Maybe something they design themselves. Maybe something existing and free such as RISC-V, saving Apple the work of creating all the compilers etc themselves.Apple has their own existing rather good ARM micro-arcitectures. Better than anyone else's (whether standard ARM or Samsung or Qualcomm), and pushing hard against the lower end i3s and i5s. Changing the instruction decoder on those to use a slightly different (and maybe simpler) RISC instruction set would be a relatively simple task.

author: Electro Detective
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 22, 2018, 09:45:12 am
content: Well whatever 'architecture' they decide to roll with, maybe they'll dump the mountain desktop eye candy and give their impoverished followers some coastal aerial views instead...so the spinning beachballs of death won't be out of place