[SOLVED] I am furious - Ordered PCBs are defected. - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / projects

author: Asim
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2016, 04:47:13 pm
content: Hey guys,So, I designed my circuit and sent it for manufacturing in China as I usually do. I also paid for DHL shipping because I was in hurry for this design.Order was placed on 11th and reached today the 19th. So far so good.Me being a fool started assembling immediately. After finishing a portion of the circuit, I started testing this is when Murphy came to say HI.after only 10 minutes of troubleshooting, the problem was found. A via is not plated correctly/fully.At that point, I decided to check the other batch of PCBs I got, all had the same issue BUT IN DIFFERENT AREAS and some PCBs are worst than the others.who's the supplier you ask ?That would beseeedstudioTheir specification for via is 12 mil (3 mm) minimum . my design was 15.75 mil (4 mm)what should I do now?how should I approach them ?Your valuable comments are appreciated.Regards,AsimUPDATE:SeeedStudio offered me a compensation for the defected PCBs

author: Kalvin
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2016, 04:55:35 pm
content: Have you tried contacting them, like writing an email, and explaining your problem and waiting for a reply. Writing a rant in here doesn't really help with the problem and fix your PCBs.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 19, 2016, 04:56:27 pm
content: You should certainly take some photos and send them as evidence and request compensation / boards redone. As of PCBs themselves, if you are in hurry, maybe make another order somewhere else to not waste time on communicating them back and forth, before they agree to remake them. PCBway is very fast, however PCBwin offers best quality I've seen from China.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 19, 2016, 04:59:44 pm
content: BTW it also suggests they didn't run the boards through automated electrical test.

author: Asim
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2016, 05:04:17 pm
content: Quote from: Kalvin on November 19, 2016, 04:55:35 pmThis all happened in the last 4 hours. I will be contacting them shortly, but I had to rant it out of my system.

author: Asim
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2016, 05:05:21 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on November 19, 2016, 04:59:44 pmYea, I came up with the same conclusion. or they did a partial test ?!!

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 19, 2016, 05:13:22 pm
content: Quote from: Asim on November 19, 2016, 05:05:21 pmAre any boards marked somewhere on the edge? Any decent enough PCB house makes 100% testing these days. All what I've seen were boards with crappily "repaired" defects. They didn't retest boards, though. As there were a few occasions they cut through the short, but a bit of it still remained.

author: Asim
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2016, 05:16:25 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on November 19, 2016, 05:13:22 pmno marks( other than the serial number they love to attach to the pcb)

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 19, 2016, 05:18:45 pm
content: Should be like this. If they are not, likely they were not tested.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2016, 05:33:25 pm
content: AFAIK electrical testing has been replaced by automated optical inspection a long time ago due to cost and ever decreasing pad sizes.

author: AndyC_772
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2016, 07:21:54 pm
content: For completed PCB assemblies, sure, but how would you AOI a multi-layer PCB to ensure all the vias are correctly connected to internal layers? There's nothing externally visible to inspect.True story... (wavy lines)We ordered a batch of several hundred multi-layer PC cards from a major UK supplier, and as usual, paid for the bare boards to be 100% tested. The PCBs were duly assembled, and they arrived with us for functional testing and configuration.The failure rate was 25%, all the same problem. A track, clearly visible on an outer layer, had a tiny break in the same place on each one.We took it up with the board manufacturer, who shared with us the results of the investigation:- the board was made 4 up on a panel- one copy of the artwork for the bottom layer had a tiny scratch on it- the operator carrying out the bare board testing had deliberately waived the test of that particular net because "too many units were failing it". He thought there was a fault with the test jig, so just ignored the faults rather than investigating. Thirty seconds with a multimeter would have found the problem

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 19, 2016, 07:26:20 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on November 19, 2016, 05:33:25 pmNonsense, you cannot optically test vias. manufacturers advertise E-test, not optical test. As well I see flying probe marks on all of my boards (under microscope, hard to see on ENIG, very noticeable on HASL). Optical testing is valid only for single layer boards. As well widely used on PCB assembly.

author: technix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2016, 07:35:46 pm
content: This is very strange.I almost always order my boards from a local no-name board house, but so far there have only been one board being messed up - the first run of M180v4 had a partially missing ground plane on the bottom - which cannot be caught by electrical testing but easily identifiable in visual testing. After I sent them a photo of the messed-up board and a reference image exported from CAD, they very quickly sent me replacements. (Although they did mistook M180v3 for M180v4, which is a fairly minor revision, and a second replacement have to be sent. I ended up getting to keep a working-but-incorrect batch of M180v4, an extra batch of M180v3, and a correct batch of M180v4, all for the cost of one batch of boards)

author: Asim
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 20, 2016, 03:40:31 am
content: I contacted them and explained the issue.Instead of waiting for their reply, I ordered another batch from a different manufacturerWill wait and see

author: Mattylad
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 20, 2016, 10:44:17 am
content: What they may do is re supply you with foc replacement boards and at a faster delivery time so may arrive before the others you ordered do.Seedstudio are cheap, you gets what you pays for with them, when you order you keep your fingers crossed.

author: ludzinc
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 20, 2016, 11:33:10 am
content: Once received boards from Elecrow, without any drill holes!Checked the files I sent - yes I had included the drill files so the problem wasn't at my end.Sent an email with a pic, no questions asked a new batch was sent with their deepest apologies.I always like to judge customer service not on them getting it 100% right, but how they react when it goes wrong.Elecrow FTW!

author: Ice-Tea
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 20, 2016, 12:06:40 pm
content: Aside from drill diameter, did you check their anular ring requirements?

author: janoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 20, 2016, 12:38:49 pm
content: Quote from: Mattylad on November 20, 2016, 10:44:17 amI believe Seeed and ITead are both using the same fab and they are both the cheapest of the lot (or used to be, didn't check the prices recently). So you get what you pay for in a way - an occasional mess-up like this is to be expected. On the other hand, Seeed has decent customer service and you shouldn't have a problem with getting this rectified.If you are making something where quality is critical, don't choose the cheapest hobbyist-oriented supplier.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 20, 2016, 01:51:03 pm
content: Quote from: ludzinc on November 20, 2016, 11:33:10 amI agree. Every now and then PCB manufacturers mess things up and what counts is how they make it right. Over the years I have received several PCBs which where made wrong by various suppliers. People make mistakes so switching to a different supplier isn't the solution.BTW in my experience the boards from Seeedstudio are just as good as the ones I get from Eurocircuits. The price difference is in the cost of labour.

author: Asim
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 20, 2016, 02:25:15 pm
content: Quote from: Ice-Tea on November 20, 2016, 12:06:40 pmTheir minimum is 4 mil, I designed for 8 mil

author: Asim
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 20, 2016, 02:29:26 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on November 20, 2016, 01:51:03 pmto be honest, I have been using Seeed for some time now. first time to get a issue with the PCBs

author: Ice-Tea
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 20, 2016, 04:03:26 pm
content: Quote from: Asim on November 20, 2016, 02:25:15 pmAnd how did you interpret this? This is how it should be:If you added 8 mil to the 0.3mm for the final via diameter the you effectively have selected 4 mil AR. I noticed seed has options for 4 5 and 6 mil so if you had 4 mil and selected 6 from the options perhaps this could be the reason...

author: Asim
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 20, 2016, 05:33:25 pm
content: Quote from: Ice-Tea on November 20, 2016, 04:03:26 pmIt is available in their specification pagehttp://support.seeedstudio.com/knowledgebase/articles/447362-fusion-pcb-specificationthey mention 4 mil for the annular ring.I believe what you read is for Min Tracking / Spacing which is not applicable for annular ring?below are my via specs:pad size=8 mmhole size=4 mm

author: Niklas
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 21, 2016, 12:01:25 am
content: If it is just a 2 layer board, then it would be very obvious if the layer to layer alignment and drill positioning are off. I guess that either the plating and/or drilling process are more likely to cause failure on the PCBs you received. Drilling small holes fast and trying to maximize the service life of the drill bit can cause uneven walls inside the holes. A worn out drill bit can wobble and also cause burr from the fiberglass to extend into the hole. During the following plating process, this burr can result in uneven thickness of the deposited plating material. Something to look out for if the PCBAs are failing after some time with thermal cycling.If you have a microscope, fine grit sandpaper and some patience then you can make a cross section cut of a via hole to check the plating thickness. Typically the thickness should be approx 20 um or about half the thickness of the copper on the outer layers (18 um copper foil + 20 um plating)

author: salbayeng
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 21, 2016, 01:09:40 am
content: Class 1 boards don't require any visual inspection, but should have less than 3 voids in any via.seehttp://www.circuitnet.com/experts/86649.htmlI always specify 20mil (0.5mm) vias with 10mil annulus when using cheap PCB manufacturers.And 100% electrical test.Even then you can see gaps in the vias occasionally.If you need quality PCB's then specify class2 with a reputable supplier.

author: batteksystem
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 21, 2016, 01:53:09 am
content: Quote from: Asim on November 19, 2016, 04:47:13 pmYou mention this is done in a hurry, how long does it take from taking order to deliver to you? If they don't have enough time to do proper checking this is what could happen.

author: AndyC_772
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 21, 2016, 07:13:22 am
content: Quote from: batteksystem on November 21, 2016, 01:53:09 amOh, hell no. If a supplier can't deliver aworkingproduct within a particular turnaround time, it shouldn't offer that service at all.

author: Wilksey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 21, 2016, 10:53:27 am
content: All of the Chinese fabs I've used have been fine, you get your silk screen issues, slightly mis-aligned drill holes (you get what you pay for!), but they work fine and I have never had to complain about the boards (I have some awaiting delivery, let's test Murphy to his law!)Once I had one package go missing and I emailed them and asked them for an update (I didn't know it had gone missing at this point), and they sent out a new package with no fuss (Elecrow), I have only had this happen with 1 supplier, and it was more likely the postal service than the fabs.As people have mentioned, it's not them getting it 100% correct, it's what they do to rectify when an issue does arise!Most will offer a "production" style PCB service as opposed to their cheap / pool type service, they are better quality, but take more time and cost more, a lot more if you want them quick.

author: nuno
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 21, 2016, 02:16:36 pm
content: Too small to stick a tiny wire and solder and go on with your project while waiting for the new batch?

author: Asim
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 21, 2016, 02:42:12 pm
content: Quote from: Niklas on November 21, 2016, 12:01:25 amDefinitely platting issue. alignment is fineQuote from: nuno on November 21, 2016, 02:16:36 pmI was doing just that yesterday, total of 22 vias found unplated.

author: Asim
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 21, 2016, 02:44:30 pm
content: Status update.They replied asking for a proof.How to take a picture of a 0.4 mm unplated holes

author: nuno
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 21, 2016, 03:30:33 pm
content: Maybe a small video showing the problem with an ohmmeter.Or pic with a magnifying lens in front.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 21, 2016, 03:44:41 pm
content: Quote from: Asim on November 21, 2016, 02:44:30 pm"Because I said so, and I'm not chinese."

author: CraigHB
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 21, 2016, 03:48:25 pm
content: Quote from: Asim on November 21, 2016, 02:44:30 pmThese China vendors always want a photo whenever there's some complaint with a product they ship, never take the customer word for it. I could take a photo with my camera of something that small. I'd use my camera stand made for close shots with the camera in its super macro mode.Pretty sure they advertise 100% electrical testing with Seeed. All the board orders I've made in the past include electrical testing and I've not received a bad one. Though I think for Seeed you have to select 100% testing on checkout, though it doesn't raise the price. I don't see how they could have missed that even with the default checkout setting of 95% electrical testing. As far as I know it's always an automated process using actual probes so it would be pretty hard for something to get past that.

author: Asim
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 21, 2016, 04:58:14 pm
content: Quote from: CraigHB on November 21, 2016, 03:48:25 pmI gave them a video, easier and clearer.This is the test method I used to check for connectivity of vias in the videoa. I used a power supply & LED to confirm the connectivity of the ground plane viasb. Power supply was connected to the 5V rail of the PCB.c. LED connected to the 5V rail ( in step b)d. a probe is used to complete the circuit between the 5V and LED to the ground vias.if LED=on >>>>> via is platedif LED=off >>>>> via is not plated

author: batteksystem
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 22, 2016, 01:54:58 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on November 21, 2016, 08:51:53 pmActually for normal order, the supplier should keep a few pcs for QC purposes. If there are any problems, the supplier will check the board at their side to confirm. At least this was how I were doing.

author: AndyC_772
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 22, 2016, 07:29:21 am
content: In my experience, failed vias are rarely isolated one-offs. If a board has one, chances are it has more than one, and so do other boards in the batch.

author: Asim
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 22, 2016, 09:43:41 am
content: Quote from: AndyC_772 on November 22, 2016, 07:29:21 amYea, this is my case, all boards had failed vias in different locations

author: Asim
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 23, 2016, 03:58:01 pm
content: Status updatethey replied to me with the following: "The quality issue of your board which was indeed our mistake , we are really sorry for this inconvenience caused ."three options were given to me as compensation:1. 150$ coupon2. redo the the boards3. 122.62$ refund to my account ( this is the amount I paid for the boards)

author: timb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 23, 2016, 09:22:51 pm
content: Take the $150 coupon, reorder the boards with it. That way you gain a small balance out of the screwup.

author: rcourtney
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2016, 04:16:11 am
content: 1 or 2 oz copper?Copper pours solid or hatch?Large etched areas?These might cause over etching.

author: Asim
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2016, 04:21:59 am
content: Quote from: timb on November 23, 2016, 09:22:51 pmI did take the coupon, but because I ordered the pcb again from another supplier

author: Asim
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2016, 04:23:51 am
content: Quote from: rcourtney on November 24, 2016, 04:16:11 am1 ozSolid pourNo

author: RogerRowland
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2016, 06:18:25 am
content: Quote from: Asim on November 23, 2016, 03:58:01 pmSo, when all the dust settled, it seems like SEEEDStudio did the right thing. I've used them in the past although I favour ITEAD now, but it sounds like it would not stop me using them in future.

author: Asim
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2016, 08:10:08 am
content: Quote from: RogerRowland on November 24, 2016, 06:18:25 amYea, all good.My only grind is the slow communication( 2 days for each reply)

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 24, 2016, 08:13:21 am
content: Quote from: Asim on November 24, 2016, 08:10:08 amThat's why I suggested ordering elsewhere. Usually you'll get your problem fixed but will lose significant time in the process. Time zone difference with China does not help either.

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2016, 08:21:53 am
content: Quote from: ludzinc on November 20, 2016, 11:33:10 amAgreed.Ive had nothing but good results with elecrow up until last week. They sent me somone elses pcb. Lol. I picked it up right away in the photo they email of your pcbs before shipment.Let them know and they made me a new rush batch immediately .I'm happy to keep using them. Mistakes will always happen and they fix them when they do

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2016, 08:35:49 am
content: The problem with Seeed, as well as some others, is that they are over-preferred by the so-called "hobbyist" segment; even though in reality, they are just the typical lowest-segment Chinese basic fab, there is a huge segment of people preferring them just because others do the same.This means that some people will always choose them for non-technical reasons no matter what ("it's THE open source hardware fab everybody uses!!!"), which means that customer satisfaction is not as important as it is when you order from a not-so-well-known fab that pops up on the top of pcbshopper.com. Because, in the case of some random Pcbway or Shenzen2u (these two tend to be the cheapest on pcbshopper.com so I tend to use them), if you are unsatisfied, you don't use them again, and you don't recommend them for a friend.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 24, 2016, 09:32:45 am
content: Quote from: Psi on November 24, 2016, 08:21:53 amThen you should inspect their PCBs under microscope. More than half of orders I got from them included some crap. Drill misaligned with vias so much that broken annular ring (annular ring well within their design rules), the most strange thing it was only random amount of vias on the PCB. Mouse bites in solder resist around pads, repairs after solder mask already applied (ugly cut shorts with a knife). Solder resist delaminating over vias. Lines of missing copper on the ground plane and almost broken traces. Board scratched all over. Very imprecise V-groove.

author: RogerRowland
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2016, 09:43:49 am
content: @wraper - so you mentioned PCBWin earlier as the best you'd seen from China. Do you use them exclusively now or is there anyone else you'd recommend? I've had numerous boards from ITEAD over the last couple of years and always been happy with the quality, although I'm never running too close to their DRC limits.

author: Asim
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2016, 10:03:02 am
content: Quote from: wraper on November 24, 2016, 08:13:21 amI did order elsewhere to avoid any extra delayAlso, time difference between me and china is 4 hours only

author: Asim
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2016, 10:04:34 am
content: Quote from: RogerRowland on November 24, 2016, 09:43:49 amI will update you with the quality after I receive my batch as I did order from them

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 24, 2016, 10:11:28 am
content: Quote from: RogerRowland on November 24, 2016, 09:43:49 amI've made 2 quiet big orders with them. Have not ordered any PCBs since then yet. As I check all of the PCBs under microscope after reflow, can say no shit noticed whatsoever. If nitpicking, sometimes small misalignment with layers (noticeable on the vias on bottom side, always perfectly in the center on the top), but that was perfectly acceptable and far from breaking annular rings. Of course this does not guarantee future orders will be as good. But with other fabs there always were at least some small imperfections here an there. If ordering ENIG, there are layer of paper between the boards, HASL don't have.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 24, 2016, 10:22:53 am
content: Quote from: RogerRowland on November 24, 2016, 09:43:49 amIn the past I made a few orders from them for around ~$500 in total. Cannot say I was impressed with quality in any way but boards were functional and IIRC without showstopper flaws unlike Elecrow.

author: Asim
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 03, 2016, 09:27:06 am
content: Quote from: RogerRowland on November 24, 2016, 09:43:49 amSo, the new PCBs arrived in a week ( fastest order I got so far).the quality is good & the customer service is also good.Happy with the service

author: digsys
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 03, 2016, 10:28:42 am
content: I've used PCBWin a few times now. OK it's not the razor-sharp photo quality I get from local or big-name places, but so far, they've been pretty good.I have 200+ pcbs to check tomorrow, so stay tuned :-)ONE damn GRIPE though. I've always had a gerber v-grove layer, and a routing layer (usually the board edge layer. Their auto-checker rejects it.Tried a few times, different ideas, no luck. Sent emails and test pcbs, and still they can't tell me WTF? One one design, they v-groved all the panel pcb outlines !!Doesanyoneknow how to present V-Grove info?

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 03, 2016, 11:05:39 am
content: Quote from: digsys on December 03, 2016, 10:28:42 amI just put outline, slots and v-groove to mechanical layer with comments what is what.

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 03, 2016, 11:08:19 am
content: Quote from: digsys on December 03, 2016, 10:28:42 amThere is no widely used standardized way. It is always specified by the fab. Normally, it's on the website. If such info doesn't exist, and the fab cannot provide it even when asked, the fab is only usable by random pure luck.

author: digsys
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 03, 2016, 11:35:26 am
content: Quote from: wraperYup, did all that, and tried other ideas. The auto-checker rejects it ! Maybe Siwastaja is right - pot luck ! :-)