Help to select a Automotive qualified microcontroller - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: rvalente
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2020, 01:53:01 pm
content: Hello Mates,I'm looking to select an automotive uC, for chassis level use. The first eval boards (just as proof of concept) were based in the STM323F103C8T6 (blue pill board) here some requirements.The device will be used in trucks, mainly with 28V systems but, could be used for 14V as well.4 channels input compare, the STM32 is running at a 10MHz timer, with 4 input channels, I need to read frequencies from 0 to 1500Hz.44 to 64 pin package, TQFP/QFNAEC-Q100 qualifiedAt list 32KB RAMAt list 128KB Flash (i know it is a lot, but do not want to change this device in the future)One channel CAN (CAN FD would be very nice to have)10 bit adc (12 bit would be nice)At list one SPI bus (for interface with eeprom devices, microwire compatible would be nice)As for the IDE, would be nice to have a free one with cheaper debuggerI'm looking for the ATSAMC21G18Ahttps://www.microchip.com/wwwproducts/en/ATSAMC21G18AI know in the automotive world Renesas is the company, big big players in the field, I've used nec stuff in the past, but found the support very poor.Greetings!

author: Rudolph Riedel
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2020, 07:07:49 pm
content: I am using ATSAMC21 and ATSAME51 with Atmel Studio 7 and an Atmel ICE or a JLINK Edu mini.These do have all of your required peripherals and then some more.

author: rvalente
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2020, 09:18:29 pm
content: Quote from: Rudolph Riedel on August 14, 2020, 07:07:49 pmTks by your reply, have you already done any EMI/EMC testing?

author: Rudolph Riedel
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2020, 02:47:36 pm
content: No, I have not as I am usually doing prototypes only.I have an upcoming project that may use a C21 and that would be properly tested.But this is far off.

author: Niklas
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2020, 03:52:36 pm
content: Is the AEC-Q rating a firm customer demand or is it more of a "nice to have"? I cannot remember that any of our customers have mentioned it for an emissions related sensor that is not safety critical.

author: rvalente
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2020, 06:35:55 pm
content: Quote from: Rudolph Riedel on August 15, 2020, 02:47:36 pmSame scenario here, prototype stante and still many months behind this kind of testing.Quote from: Niklas on August 15, 2020, 03:52:36 pmIs truly on "nice to have", I've worked previously at continental (Siemens VDO) and there everything had to be AEC-Q, so I believe I got it in my mind.This device is not safety critical, but is chassis level so, as cost is not a huge issue now, I feel is safer to use AEC parts only

author: eutectique
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 16, 2020, 02:03:46 pm
content: One of my clients has passed through the same selection process recently. SAMC21 was on their short list, but was stricken out mainly because of impossibility of getting the SDK easily. Creating an online project on start.atmel.com and downloading the generated libraries have been considered impractical.Their final choice isNXP S32K1xxfamily.Regarding EMI/EMC certification, the same client had several previous projects with SAMV70 which have been certified successfully. But your question was about C21, so this example probably does not apply.edit: fixed the URL

author: rvalente
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 16, 2020, 06:17:35 pm
content: Quote from: eutectique on August 16, 2020, 02:03:46 pmI have not looked at the S32K, looks very promising, tks!

author: mipl
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: August 16, 2020, 07:54:33 pm
content: I don't know if ARM ISA is hard requirment here, but if not maybe PowerPC would make be for this task, e.g.https://www.st.com/en/automotive-microcontrollers/spc58-2b-line-mcus.htmlMaybe from the SW side is not fancy new, but from the HW perspective should pass all requirment (EMC etc.). There's IDE from STm to speed up the SW development.

author: Rudolph Riedel
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 16, 2020, 09:42:13 pm
content: Quote from: eutectique on August 16, 2020, 02:03:46 pmYou have to be kidding.

author: Scrts
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 17, 2020, 03:48:17 am
content: Quote from: Rudolph Riedel on August 16, 2020, 09:42:13 pmSo imagine you launch a safety related project into the series production vehicle. About 9 years later, there is an issue that caused a crash. Investigators come and ask to review all your project source code. You have to compile with the same version compiler and toolset as 9 years ago. You think all microcontroller suppliers will allow getting support after that long?This happened with one premium german vehicle manufacturer, BTW.

author: Scrts
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 17, 2020, 03:50:17 am
content: Quote from: eutectique on August 16, 2020, 02:03:46 pmWe've used PIC16, PIC24, Renesas chips for small automotive devices, but our latest choice now is S32K1xx as well. The bigger ones use either Infineon TriCore, Renesas RH850 or ST SPC56.

author: fchk
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 17, 2020, 11:52:33 am
content: You may want to have a look at the TI Hercules Cortex-R controllers TMS570/RM4xxx. These controllers have ISO26262 ASIL D and SIL 3 certifications, lockstep cpu core, everything is ECC protected etc.IDE would be TI Code Composer Studio (CCS) (free), and an XDS110 or JLink as a debugger.fchk

author: Rudolph Riedel
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2020, 07:36:04 pm
content: Quote from: Scrts on August 17, 2020, 03:48:17 amSo what?You do not click together your application, you specify, document, develop and test.Clicking it together on Atmel START is about the worst idea in this context. It's beta, buggy and left for dead.And as Microchip clearly does not intend to finish it they should have shut it down some time ago.https://www.microchip.com/design-centers/functional-safetyhttp://packs.download.atmel.com/- just the includeshttps://www.microchip.com/mplab/avr-support/atmel-studio-7- ide with compiler and includesWhat about getting the SDK for the C21 is complicated?Entry level for evaluation is free.

author: eutectique
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2020, 12:15:03 pm
content: Quote from: Rudolph Riedel on August 18, 2020, 07:36:04 pmAgree.It is always good to have the manufacturer's SDK. The way to get it from Atmel is to create an online project with all devices you can think of, download it, throw away the generated main(), keep HAL and HPL, and call this chop "SDK". What is the version of this SDK? Are there release notes from the manufacturer?Include files are not enough. The version of gcc which comes with Atmel Studio is 6.3.1 (ARM's one is 9.3). And even IDE itself is of no use -- the team prefers Atom or gvim.

author: Rudolph Riedel
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2020, 04:24:50 pm
content: Quote from: eutectique on August 19, 2020, 12:15:03 pmNo, this is not the SDK, this is a pile of junk called "Advanced Software Framework" mixed in with the SDK, ASF4 beta to be precise.QuoteNot enough to do what exactly?So you do need libraries?Have you even bothered to open the first link I provided?You can get the "ISO 26262 ASIL Library", "AUTOSAR®/MCAL", "Safety Manual" and "TÜV SÜD-Certified Compilers" from Microchip.And it is not like Microchip is hiding this stuff, so whoever did the evaluation, he did a bad job if all he found is START.QuoteSo what, use whatever compiler and editor you like, AtmelStudio and MPLAB-X is only what you can get immediately from Microchip and for free.

author: rvalente
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2020, 01:02:11 pm
content: Quote from: Scrts on August 17, 2020, 03:50:17 amI've seen PICs been used in for bikes dashboards, when I used to work for continental some HVACs controls used PIC16x, not mission critical.For the big ECUs (engine and transmission management) everyone used to use ST10 up to 2010, them some used Freescales for a bit and all europeans are now using TriCore (which I've heard is a pain to work with).I have good eyes for Renesas but I feel the have such a lack of support, from themself and basically no community at all.So I'm between ATSAM and NXPS32K1xx, more to ATSAM because is 5V, has a bunch of captures, I've good relationship with microchip reps and own a pickit4 hhahahahha

author: JPortici
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2020, 05:42:06 am
content: Bosch has moved on to Cortex R52 (the ST Stellar)also don't underestimate the dsPIC33EV for a candidate.. though i wish they made a dsPIC33"C"V, much more powerful core.I was not impressed by the ATSAMC21 one bit, the S32K1 looked promising but i was put off by the docs (and the low volume pricing. If we did higher volume it would be compelling to use)

author: Rudolph Riedel
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2020, 02:48:08 pm
content: Quote from: JPortici on August 21, 2020, 05:42:06 amApart from that the ST Stellar does not seem to exist yet, I do not consider a BGA516 package with upto 6 Cortex-R52 cores running at up to 600MHz with 16MB PCM and 8MB SRAM, a Hypervisor and three additional Cortex M4F cores to be a micro-controller. :-)https://www.st.com/content/st_com/en/landing-page/stellar-32-bit-automotive-mcus.htmlQuoteWell, compared to an APU that can run several operating systems in parallel a Cortex M0+ is a bit puny. :-)

author: JPortici
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2020, 03:11:40 pm
content: Ah yes, the stellar existjust not publicly available.. in fact the ECU of many AUDI/BMW/Mercedes from about 2017-2018 use the stellar under the hood.ST had the populated PCB of that ECU on showcase at last year's embedded world.. Of course it wasn't marked and they couldn't say but if it looks like that ECU and the stellar has many security features in common with that ECU.."I was not impressed"Yeah sorry, i meant that compared to (any) dsPIC there is NO cortex M0/M0+ that impresses me..The stellar is just insane i can't imagine the complexity of the OS they run on it..

author: Rudolph Riedel
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2020, 02:16:31 pm
content: ECUs and BCMs or "domain controllers" are beyond my scope so it has been a while since I had a peek inside an ECU.I know that Bosch was using PowerPC controllers from Freescale for a while and then they switched over to Infineon Tricore several years ago. If they really switched to Stellar I am mildly curious why.Also in that class is R-Car H3 from Renesas or i.MX from NXP.However, the TOs specs are way below of what one of these multi-core monsters are used for.

author: bobsaccamano
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2020, 08:54:49 pm
content: What about theMPC564xLseries from NXP? They claim to satisfy functional safety requirements up to ASil-D.

author: rvalente
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2020, 12:20:11 pm
content: Quote from: bobsaccamano on August 24, 2020, 08:54:49 pmThats impressive but I'd say a bit too much for my application.I still need to better check if ATSAM/dsPIC satisfy the testing requirements, which is a bit harder to know since customer has no idea what that is..Do you guys know which testing standards does Volvo/Man/Scania/Daimler/Iveco uses?

author: Scrts
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 10, 2020, 03:21:24 pm
content: Quote from: bobsaccamano on August 24, 2020, 08:54:49 pmIf you would carefully look into Freescale MPC56 and ST SPC56, you would see that the pinout matches. You would actually see, that these two micros are exactly the same, with different fuse bits burned out to differentiate between the suppliers.What happened before was that ST and Freescale created a joint venture and came up with this microcontroller. They've later split and offered different license terms. If I remember correctly, Freescale offered a fixed fee per application and pennies for the microcontroller, while ST did not ask for license fee, but rather bundled that into microcontroller price. Therefore, there are so many Freescales in the ECUs on the vehicles from around 2008-2016 period of time, because the quantities justified license cost.Fun fact: the code runs on both microcontrollers without problems, but debuggers are not cross-functional.

author: rvalente
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 10, 2020, 08:27:00 pm
content: I've chosen the ATSAM21C, its very cheap (2.5 for 10K) and looks to do everything I need, the system is rather simple in terms of processing needs and I'm kind used with microchip MPLABX IDE.Have I chosen wrong?

author: bobsaccamano
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 05, 2020, 08:04:35 pm
content: Quote from: Scrts on September 10, 2020, 03:21:24 pmThat's very interesting! Which would you recommend for a beginner? Volumes will be low (< 10 units), so looking to optimize development costs. Hence, support, documentation, ease-of-use are higher in priority. Thanks in advance.