Eurocircuit Stencil printer and reflow oven. - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Otatiaro
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2013, 12:00:52 pm
content: Hello,Just received yesterday my stencil printer and reflow oven from Eurocircuit.They are huge and perhaps a bit expensive for hobby use (well, 4800€ excl VAT for both including accessories), but damn, they really are great tools (I'm not working with Eurocircuit except being a customer for years).The stencil printer is very nice and works extremely well with Eurocircuit registration system, it is very precise and the result is FAR better than what you can do with manual stenciling, even with experience (Eurocircuit also sell a set of manual tools for 15€ that really help with stenciling by hand). The good thing is that it would work with any stencil, you are not bound to Eurocircuit stencils (just need a additionnal pair of board holder to replace the EC-registration specific ones).The reflow even is just pornographic ... big, provided with PC software to control everything, you can control both top and bottom separately (for double sided loaded PCBs), it is ultra silent, NO bad smell at all (no smell at all in fact), has both top and bottom sensor, plus a sensor you can tape on the PCB for ultra accurate measurement, I did a few dry runs with a PCB inside, the temperature curve is exactly what you want (+-1/2° max), the temperature is very well spread (I can barely hear the fan, but it does the job very well), and the door opens automatically when the temperature goes back below 165°C (so that solder is solid again) for faster cooling and easy handling. Setting another curve (well, you already have sets of curves for leaded, lead free and IMS soldering provided) is ultra easy. On board screen show good infos, enough to be used without PC connected.Next step is a PPP II from MDC SMT Japan ...http://www.mdc-smt.co.jp/goodsindex3.htmAlready had a quotation, that would be about 15k€ to get the PnP here working with cute tape feeders, ready to run (including glue stamp dispenser for double sided loaded PCBs and control PC).That's a total of 20k€ (excl VAT) to get a micro factory up and running ... MDC targets about 1000 components/day for the PPP II (speed is at least 600 cph ... I think it can do better than 1000 cpd), the board I have to assemble has about 40 components on it. That's about 25 boards a day at the very least, or 500 boards a month.Thomas.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2013, 12:15:37 pm
content: I have the printer - works pretty well but I sometimes have trouble getting the height right across the whole PCB.I think it's somewhat over-engineeered (e.g. do the knobs really need to be big chunks of ali.?) , an hence rather more expensive than it could have been.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2013, 04:26:11 pm
content: Thats a lot of money for assembling some PCBs. Why not outsource? Time spend on production can't be spend on designing circuits and customer support which should pay more per hour.

author: Otatiaro
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2013, 06:06:59 pm
content: Hello,@Mike: yes it seems a bit difficult to get the stencil perfectly flat on the PCB. But my first tests showed excellent results anyway. Probably needs some tuning.@Nico: I don't always drive my company with benefits as the main goal. Plus being able to assemble prototypes in house and fast is a nice addition for customers that are in a hurry or don't want their project going "outside" before production. But the main reason is I just love this stuff (especially pnp and cnc ...) and my company can afford these toys for meThomas.

author: jancumps
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 11, 2013, 07:11:54 pm
content: Quote from: Otatiaro on July 11, 2013, 06:06:59 pmI like your attitude, Thomas. One of the benefits of having your own company is that you can make decisions like these.Kudos to you.

author: johnny
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: March 21, 2018, 10:23:22 am
content: Hi Otatiaro,Just wanted to know whether the stencil printer's tensioner is adjustable in length (Y-direction). If yes, then how small stencil it can handle.Thanks.

author: Otatiaro
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2018, 11:22:51 am
content: Hello,Wow, so much things happened in the meantimeQuick answer : yes you can adjust the tensioner, the smallest stencil I'd say around 7/8cm length (including the clamped zones).We now use a Uniprint printer, with a ZelFlex tensioner (pneumatic, 4 sides), the EC printer is used only for some prototypes.We don't use EC that much, we had a couple bad issues and they systematically refused to take their responsibilities, so we moved. We work more and more with ellipse-tronic (pcb-prototype.com).As for the pick and place, we finally bought a Mechatronika M10V and cannot be more happy with it, made thousands of PCBs, not a single issue (Faktronix has been a perfect reseller).We still use the EC oven, but will probably inevest in a better one in the coming months/years.And I just signed 2 weeks ago for a CNC Milling Center Haas VF2SSThomas.

author: johnny
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: March 22, 2018, 07:40:07 am
content: Thanks for your reply. I am thinking to buy EC SMD equipment. So can you elaborate the problems you had with their machines and also kindly share some insight into their customer support.Thanks.

author: Otatiaro
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2018, 08:32:16 am
content: Hello,The printer is fine for a couple PCBs with normal pitch, fine pitch (below .5mm) is a no go. The fact that you cannot fine tune the alignment makes it hard to use for bigger batches or fine pitch.Plus you pretty much have to buy your PCBs through EC, you can mimic their system but it is by far not the most efficient.The oven is not that bad (mine is one of the first revisions), but with time I think the convection is not working anymore (difference in temperature across the board), the internal temp sensor stopped working a few months after I bought the oven, and I think the temperatures are a bit off (I need to increase the temperatures compared to what the manufacturer advise to get a clean solder joint).About customer service, we had a couple bad PCBs, that were sent along with the good ones (like order 10 PCBs, got 9 ok and 1 faulty), these were NOT marked by any means, so we thought everything was ok and assembled them, then spent quite some time analysing what was wrong. When we discovered one PCB was really bad, we called them and they answer was that we didn't check that we didn't want bad PCBs in panels (so that if they have a panel with good PCBs and a few bad PCBs they send it anyway so you can use the good ones). EXCEPT ... the bad one was not marked, so we couldn't eliminate it from assembly, plus the total PCB count was not ok then (ordered 10 PCBs, got 9 OK, why should I pay for bad PCBs).My guess is that they don't do the electrical testing as they advertise, so the bad PCB went through unchecked and they refuse to admit it and take their responsibilities.So before if you work with them, do NOT trust every PCB or unmarked PCBs are ok ...I get far better service (so fat) and lower prices with ellipse-tronic, plus it's not pooling, so if you need an option, you don't pay it for the entire production panel (EC is not that bad if your PCBs has absolutely no option, check an option and the price increase 10x ...).At the end of the day, would I recommend buying their stuff ?- Oven I don't know, it is not bad for the price, but maybe there are better options- Stencil printer nope, stick with stencil-fix, it's 15€ and does the same job, if you need something beefier, look for uniprint or equivalent- PCBs, look around, there ARE better alternatives, local supplier can probably make better stuff, and you can find the same quality for cheaper in China (but I'd advise not to work directly with them, find a company in your country that work with them, like ellipse-tronic).Thomas.PS : where do you live ?

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2018, 10:31:27 am
content: Quote from: Otatiaro on March 22, 2018, 08:32:16 amThis is utter nonsense. Their "system" is simply two 3mm holes ( at any spacing) at the bottom edge, which are 30mm from two 5mm holes in the stencil, which in turn are 19mm from the bottom edge of the stencil.https://www.eurocircuits.com/ec-registration-system/I've just made a component that has a PCB hole and a paste pad of the right spacing and size - I just place 2 of these on the edge of the board at a convenient horizontal spacing . Very occasionally I get a stainless stencil with the hole size very slightly reduced so it's tight on the pins, but it's not a problem to open it up with a rolled-up piece of abrasive paper.I've only rarely had alignment issues, even on larger panels, and regularly do 0.5mm pitches with no problem -the main risk is if the hole to copper alignment on the PCB is bad.If you do have a badly aligned PCB, it is possible to work round this by opening up the holes and placing a sheet of thin plastic or FR4 between the supports and the base to allow it to be slid to align.It woudl be nice to have a small adjustment range, maybe 1mm in each direction, but that would make it even more complicated and expensive. If it wasn't so over-engineered I'd imagine they could make a unit for the same price with an adjustment facility.QuoteNot marking cross-outs on a panel is inexcusable.I've used Eurocircuits quite a lot and generally happy with them.

author: johnny
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: March 22, 2018, 10:39:46 am
content: Thank you very much for your reply. I am from Pakistan. And for PCB manufacturing I am already looking for the manufacturers in China (there are lots of them). As far as EC is concerned, I was just interested in their equipment. So, yeah I was looking at eC-stencil-fix which looks better option than eC-stencil-mate as I have a minimum of 0.5mm pitch (and both do the similar job I guess). For the Reflow oven, considering the other options like LPKF protoflow S and Manncorp MC 301, eC-reflow-mate only comes into my budget range. If you can suggest better options in USD 4k then you are most welcome.Thanks.

author: Otatiaro
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2018, 11:19:51 am
content: Hello,Like I said, you can mimic their registration system with another PCB manufacturer and still use stencil-fix or stencil-mate.I now use 4 side tensioning on the ZelFlex (http://www.zelflex.com/products/zelflex_z4p/) and there is absolutely no comparision possible.One thing to consider is the quality of the paste you use, we use only Qualitek 825, SAC305 type 4.We order the stencils from db-products in France, we always get the stencil before the PCBs, and the price not so much higher than EC type (plus you can put multiple designs on one stencil, which is almost 500x500mm).For .5mm pitch I'd say it is usable for prototypes (forget about production anyway), anything smaller will be a pain (we did .4mm QFN, was very problematic).I'd sell you mine but the shipping from France to Pakistan for this weight would proably cost more than the price of the printerFor the oven, it depends on the size of the panel you want to put inside.http://cif.fr/en/68-batch-reflow-ovenshttps://www.factronix.com/systeme/reflowoefen-und-loetroboter/reflowofen-mr10-(2-zonen)/http://www.sinerji-grup.com/reflow-and-curing-ovens/essemtec-machines/ro-06-plus-batch-reflow-ovenDon't know the price of these, but some of them are probably in your price range.The EC oven is still a good option to my opinion (this one I wouldn't sell it, at least for now).Thomas.