Vacuum Cleaner "Horsepower" - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Cyberdragon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2020, 04:50:10 pm
content: Just like space heater "room size" (see Technology Connections), we have another example of BS marketing wank from appliance companies.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2020, 05:10:47 pm
content: I haven't bothered to watch the video, but it's BS.1hp = 745.7WWhat's the maximum power output of typical mains sockets in the area it's sold in?UK230V 13A = 2990W = 4hpEurope230V 16A = 3680W = 4.93hpBut the power consumption by vacuum cleaners in the EU is capped at under 1kW, if I remember rightly.US120V 15A = 1800W = 2.41phPerhaps this should be in the dodgy technology section?

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2020, 05:32:06 pm
content: Hmm. About 3 kW seems a lot for a vacuum cleaner. Most of house vacuum cleaners are like half that or less.Items meant to be plugged in basic mains sockets rarely draw over 2 kW or so. But a few are close to this: some hair dryers are rated close to 2 kW.While this thing would probably have no market and would even be non-compliant in many parts of the world, it could still be real. It would just be illegal to sell it.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2020, 06:35:16 pm
content: Marketing indeed. Here's a central shop vac with a real 5HP motor:

author: Cyberdragon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2020, 07:11:32 pm
content: Quote from: Zero999 on March 21, 2020, 05:10:47 pmNo, it's worse than that, watch the video.They claim 4.5HPMECHANICAL POWERwith a basic brushed motor (measured at 51% effeciency).There is even fine print claiming some sort of "testing" and that it's some sort of vague "peak power". He called the company (ShopVac in this case) to ask about it and they said they weren't allowed to disclose that information.The "4.5HP" motor burned out at 1.68HP mechanical force.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2020, 07:19:15 pm
content: Quote from: Cyberdragon on March 21, 2020, 07:11:32 pmAhaha. No question then. It's pure fun!

author: mzzj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2020, 07:31:23 pm
content: Americans and their silly marketing horsepowers.Who rememers PMPO watts in amplifiers?

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2020, 09:24:19 pm
content: If you measure the DC resistance of the motor, use P = V^2/R and convert that to HP, that might be where the 4.5HP comes from. 4.5HP is around 3.4kW which gives a winding resistance of 4.2 ohms, seems about right for a low efficiency universal motor.

author: Cyberdragon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2020, 11:16:40 pm
content: Quote from: amyk on March 21, 2020, 09:24:19 pmNo, the fine print on the box says it's motoroutput.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2020, 11:34:50 pm
content: There's a joke that those crazy HP values are obtained with strange testing done only for marketing purposes.http://repairfaq.org/sam/humor.htm#hum011Quote

author: engrguy42
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2020, 11:35:08 pm
content: Awww, come on. Don't be so rough on them. When they say "horsepower" they're just referring to a very small horse. Y'know, like those miniature ones that are only like 1 meter tall. They have power too don't they? Don't be so judgemental.

author: WattsThat
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2020, 11:55:25 pm
content: It’s the same kind of marketing BS that has the brewers battling it out for the biggest lie in who has the lowest carbohydrate content beer.Pure BS like “2 grams of carbs and 90 calories”. Yeah, so that’s a lot of fat or protein making up the remaining 82 calories that’s unaccounted for. Unless of course they’ve come up with a new basic food group that we haven’t heard about

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2020, 11:59:57 pm
content: This is nothing new, it's no different than the cheap amplified speakers that claim "600 Watts!" yet run off a small wall wart. Vacuum cleaner makers have listed the amps and shop vacs have been rated in bogus horsepower for decades. One of the issues is that there isn't really a standard measure of effectiveness for a vacuum cleaner and most consumers have no idea what a horsepower is anyway in useful terms. They're going to end up being rated in some arbitrary unit anyway.

author: Cyberdragon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2020, 12:32:17 am
content: Quote from: james_s on March 21, 2020, 11:59:57 pmIt's a device that creates airflow. There are several ways of measuring it, flow volume, static pressure, exc.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2020, 02:45:28 am
content: Quote from: Cyberdragon on March 22, 2020, 12:32:17 amSure but which one of those do you use in order to meaningfully assess the cleaning efficacy of a vacuum cleaner? The actual performance is going to depend on many factors and a vacuum cleaner optimized to deliver high flow, high static pressure or some other number may not clean any better than one with much lower numbers. You know vacuum cleaner makers would optimize for high numbers over actual cleaning ability, I don't think it would be any more useful than the amps or horsepower.One relatively easy thing they could do is require the horsepower rating if used to be actual rated continuous horsepower of the motor. Still not very useful but at least based on something.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2020, 04:01:35 am
content: on a lighter note, my shop vac turned into a shot gun when I turned it on spewing acorns all over because of a squirrel stash.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2020, 06:05:41 am
content: Quote from: james_s on March 22, 2020, 02:45:28 amAll hail the Airwatt:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airwatt

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2020, 09:53:41 am
content: Quote from: WattsThat on March 21, 2020, 11:55:25 pmSeems sensible to me. The alcohol is responsible for the remaining 82 calories.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcoholic_drink#Food_energy

author: unknownparticle
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2020, 03:44:16 pm
content: Similar BS to hobby air compressors marketed with outrageous HP claims! Break it down and most of them produce less than half what the makers claim, then apply a duty cycle factor and they are a joke.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2020, 05:38:21 pm
content: Quote from: Cyberdragon on March 21, 2020, 11:16:40 pmYep. Then it's either a complete lie, or the thing must be drawing so much current from mains that it would blow everything up in a second.

author: Kleinstein
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2020, 06:01:51 pm
content: 50% efficiency is about right for a cheap universal motor at there nominal power. Better ones may reach some 70%.The electrical nominal of some 1100 VA (9.9 A at 115 V) is about normal for the shop vacuum cleaners, so is the size of the motor.For the peak power they say to include the inertial. So this would be essentially the mechanical strength of the axis times the maximum speed. So this would be effective if you suck in some hard object to suddenly blockade the motor. So the more HP the more of a destructive event when shit happens.In the US this is part of the stupid marketing too many buyers are susceptible to. Just remember the larger the letters the more suspicious one should be.For the professional cleaners in Europe they usually give the maximum pressure and maximum air flow, so both of the extremes with high and low air flow. This are more like the numbers you want to compare.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2020, 06:21:42 pm
content: As said above - if the figure was right, assuming ~50% efficiency, that would be a something like 6.7kW at the mains plug, or ~60A @110V. Sounds like a bit much for a poor mains plug.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2020, 07:22:59 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on March 22, 2020, 05:38:21 pmThey find all sorts of clever ways to inflate the number. It's probably something like motor output supplied by a high current source under whatever load results in maximum mechanical energy being delivered for some fraction of a second before the motor burns up. Universal motors can be pushed far beyond their ratings if you don't care how long they last.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2020, 07:25:41 pm
content: Quote from: Someone on March 22, 2020, 06:05:41 amI'm still skeptical of the usefulness of that although it's at least something. The nozzle characteristics and beater bar/brush head design has a great deal of influence on the efficacy of a vacuum cleaner for cleaning. The same vacuum cleaner can perform vastly differently connected to different brush heads and in the case of the typical domestic upright vacuum the brush head is an integral part. Two units with the same Airwatt rating may not perform anything alike.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2020, 08:09:16 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on March 22, 2020, 07:25:41 pmI agree. That's one of the reaons why the EU decided to cap the maximum power consumption of vacuum cleaners and insist they meet certain performance criteria instead. It got to the point when vacuums were wasting power and contributing to climate change, rather than sucking.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 23, 2020, 12:02:34 am
content: Quote from: Zero999 on March 22, 2020, 08:09:16 pmOn the other hand the "performance" ratings of vacuum cleaners were not well correlated to real world use:https://www.which.co.uk/reviews/vacuum-cleaners/article/5-things-you-need-to-know-about-the-vacuum-cleaners-energy-labelI have a commercial model cleaner that scored poorly on those ratings, but actually cleans well (along with having a very long life/low lifecycle energy cost). As mentioned matching the head/nozzle to the surface is as important as the suction.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 23, 2020, 09:11:37 am
content: Quote from: Someone on March 23, 2020, 12:02:34 amIt's something which is subjective and very difficult to measure. I hope if they expand the rules to cordless vacuums, they'll mandate a standard replaceable battery and some sort of standard for attachment compatibility, would also be a good idea.

author: Kleinstein
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 23, 2020, 10:39:59 am
content: Buying a vacuum cleaner by the power consumption is a little like buying a car by the maximum fuel consumption, thinking more is better.Those US horse power ratings really seem to suck - of is it that horses the suckSo the essence is more like ignore those HP number.Measuring the maximum volume and maximum pressure is at least a good approximation.There still is a weak point: they usually measure with a new clean filter and bag. For a more realistic rating one would wave to measure after collecting a certain amount of dust, not when new.

author: GlennSprigg
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 23, 2020, 12:07:39 pm
content: Interesting side notes...The Horsepower affects the 'volume' of air, for various size pipings. NOT the suction power! With the same principle, some guy up North had a new water bore, with the water table at 60 feet. He tried 'Sucking' the water using 2 very different HP pumps. I informed him that it wouldn't matter if he had a '1000' HP pump/motor, The 'best' any pump could do was to try & pull a perfect vacuum it could NOT lift water more than 33.9 feet!! (Needs the pump at the bottom, pushing up, obviously). He still wouldn't listen!!It also surprises some people that blocking your hand over the end of a vacuum cleaner hose, makes the motor spin faster, because it's now doing virtually no work & is using less power, than when it's sucking a full air flow!

author: Cyberdragon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 23, 2020, 03:05:51 pm
content: Quote from: Kleinstein on March 23, 2020, 10:39:59 amCyclonics (like Dyson) maintain constant airflow untill full though.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 24, 2020, 02:26:50 am
content: this is also a issue for air compressors, it seems the air products industry is full of shit in general. (not to mention consumer aerospaceboeing).. full of air is right. Some how, funnily enough, the only good value air products are hot air heaters.. but of course you get fucked on cleaning them because if they get dusty they smell like shit (wheras a propane one quickly burns the dust away so you can run it outside). Usually the small heaters used for warming up a bathroom or auxiliary room in the winter are complete bastards to clean. Why is the thing full of hot air the only good value?What else is fucking scammed to shit? tires for cars. Indoor air conditioner too. I don't even wanna think about vacuum cleaners (it SUCKS and its FULL OF AIR.. double whammy). Try doing anything with an air compressor, you realize you need aftermarket accessories unless you wanna fuck up your paint job and trash your plasma cutter. Air filters too (good product, but holy shit its expensive for no reason).Portable air conditioner-barely works- literary puts you under water financially (and not to mention, it can easily flood your house).shop vac-wakes dead in 3 mile radius, downrightdangerousif used at night. Use it for a while and you forget you put on hearing protection (I don't even turn this thing on unless I have fucking muffs). Some how its more pleasant to use a angle grinder without ear protection then this thing.standard oil less air compressor - don't even own one anymore, its a acoustic terrorist, rusty tile saw sounds better. Propane generator sounds better. Anything sounds better. Earmuffs wont save you from this. Have a night of fun reading forum posts about people doing crazy mods to silence compressors. It's total spy craft shit, hidden rooms, derelict cars, false walls.. god damn. lithium ion tools SAVED us from these mother fucking air tools (don't bother unless you get industrial screw compressor). As soon as you turn one on, its like your house getting 5 grand theft auto stars. Federal case.little dyson-for the price I hope it lives long enough, otherwise a fucking maid service is cheaper (get this USED on ebay and sterilize it, like I did). It's a good value, if you pay ~50%. You can bill yourself 150$ for the hour you spent cleaning it with some brushes and IPA. (careful, turns on by itself if it gets wet, not sure if its a feature to dry the electronics or just a fucked up control system). Might wanna put a hard switch mod on this.In short, air products are generally ass.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 24, 2020, 08:32:46 am
content: Quote from: Cyberdragon on March 23, 2020, 03:05:51 pmThey still have filters which periodically need replacing/cleaning.