Multicore 62/32/2ag - is this it? And is it as easy to use as 63/73? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: dman777
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 07, 2020, 12:37:19 am
content: I was watching EEVblog #180 Soldering Tutorial Part 1 - Tools and Dave mentioned that Solder with silver is the best. I don't mind spending extra money to get the best solder.Would this be the same kind of silver solder as shown in the video?https://www.newark.com/multicore-loctite/dlmp26-250g-reel/solder-wire-62-36-2-179-c-250g/dp/26H0805Also, is it as easy to use as the 63/73 solder that I hear about?One more question, please.... does the multicore 63/73 come in 5 core? I am only finding 3 core for it

author: Jay_Diddy_B
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 07, 2020, 01:26:57 am
content: Hi,The reason that 63/37 is the easiest solder to learn soldering is that it is a eutectic alloy:From here:https://store.curiousinventor.com/guides/how_to_solder/kind_of_solderEutectic, is the alloy with the lowest metaling point. The phase change from liquid to solid is clean, without a pasty phase. The pasty stage is bad joints.The reason for using a solder with a 2% silver content is to prevent the solder dissolving silver plating from silver plated components.In most applications the silver content isn't necessary.Note these alloys are Tin /lead alloys. Because of RoHS, reduction of hazardous substances, the use of lead bearing solder is not normally used in manufacturing environments.Lead-free solders melt at higher temperatures and are not as easy to use.The diameter of the solder, the manufacturer and the type of flux is also important.A reel of solder will last a long time.I suggest getting some very small diameter solder, for surface mount parts and large diameter for bigger thru-hole parts.Regards,Jay_Diddy_B

author: dman777
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 07, 2020, 02:16:43 am
content: Does the Multicore 63/73 come in 5 core? I am only finding 3 core. Also, that brand is it bit to hard to get over the internet. The selections are slim.

author: Nuno_pt
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 07, 2020, 03:01:25 am
content: Try Kester 44 core 66 available in US, Kester is US brand, look at cmpsupply on epay.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 07, 2020, 05:18:38 am
content: keep in mind with a narrow slush point the solder has less chance of being disturbed while cooling

author: Ian.M
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 07, 2020, 06:05:02 am
content: If you are soldering silver on ceramic terminals you *NEED* the Sn62/Pb32/Ag2 eutectic solder (or possibly a high silver ROHS solder if you are doing commercial work). Its hard to say if it makes a major difference if silver on ceramic isn't involved*, as the results are very subjective and highly dependent on the flux used.However for ordinary use you may well be better off with Sn62/Pb37/Cu1 eutectic solder, as it reduces erosion of copper by a couple of orders of magnitude, which is critically important when working with very fine magnet wire, fine stranded wire, fine pitch QFP ICs etc. and very narrow tracks, to prevent them being weakened by necking where they enter the solder joint. It also vastly improves soldering iron bit life.* For silver on base metal it doesn't matter - the silver dissolves into ordinary SnPb solder and leaves it wetting the base metal.

author: dman777
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 07, 2020, 01:06:49 pm
content: Quote from: coppercone2 on May 07, 2020, 05:18:38 amWhat is the narrow slush point?

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 07, 2020, 09:07:07 pm
content: Just get quality 63/37 and a good tube of flux (the amtech clone stuff is actually decent). If its 5 core or 3 core IMO its not really going to matter.I bought some thinking it would be superior, after seeing SDGs review. Its worse than the normal 63/37, but that is certainly from the no-clean flux that they use:http://www.chipquik.com/datasheets/SMD3SW.020%201LB.pdfQuote from: dman777 on May 07, 2020, 01:06:49 pmeutectic region, see the image already posted by Jay_Diddy

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 08, 2020, 12:42:18 am
content: Quote from: Ian.M on May 07, 2020, 06:05:02 amIt matters on a tinned IC lead? I find the point about using it on bare copper wire with fine strands very interesting.Also, what is a silver on ceramic terminal?this?http://w140.com/tekwiki/wiki/Ceramic_Strips

author: Ian.M
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 08, 2020, 04:06:22 am
content: It depends how fine the IC lead is, and how good your technique is. If you have salvaged an unobtanium IC for reuse, or trying to fix water damage, when the pads and leads have already been partially eaten away, a copper loaded solder with minimum appetite for fresh copper will increase your chances of success. It also makes a massive difference if you ever have to work with <40AWG magnet wire, or those headphone cables with bundles of colour coded very fine magnet wire, all in the same jacket. On PCBs its not usually critical, if you are good enough to be *FAST*, minimising the time the solder is liquid. and dissolving copperYes the silver plate on ceramic terminals in old Tek scopes and cursing the ancestry to three generations of the cud-chewing idiot who'd 'liberated' or just forgotten to replace the little coil of silver loaded solder that Tek had originally left stored inside them for future repair work, was the first introduction of many of us to silver loaded solder. however, as has been mentioned earlier, some SMD parts have terminals that are basically sintered silver ink (so silver plate) on ceramic, with no barrier layer of a solder-resistant metal. You'll also encounter thin silver on ceramic if you need to solder wires to piezo transducers.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 08, 2020, 04:33:35 am
content: how do they make those ceramic strips? its the superior wiring block, I have a stock pile of them but they use plasticVacuum Metalization?I wonder if you can make them with a weld flame metalizer and post machining

author: dman777
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 08, 2020, 04:43:54 am
content: I decided to go for Kester. The two sizes I can get for 63/37 no-clean is .508 or 0.381mm. I am trying to go with the recommended size of less then .50mm from the eevblog tutorial. Which size would be best between the two?

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 08, 2020, 09:32:28 pm
content: Quote from: dman777 on May 08, 2020, 04:43:54 amI use 0.5 for SMD work and its ok. If you are only doing fine SMD work and limited/no through hole then 0.381 might be a better option.Up to you. Its not much of a difference.

author: Ian.M
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 08, 2020, 09:45:17 pm
content: Quote from: dman777 on May 08, 2020, 04:43:54 amVery thin solder is difficult to use for through hole work. It takes too long and too much coordination to feed enough solder into larger joints, due to the length required, so its likely you will end up cooking the joint. If you *HAVE* to stick to one size get the 0.50 and twist three strands together for through hole work so you can feed it quicker, but personally I'd get 1.2mm for through hole and 0.38 mm for fine SMD work. No-clean flux can be a PITA to remove if you ever need a totally clean board so I tend to use RMA (rosin, mildly activated) flux, which is easy to clean, but for many purposes can be treated as no-clean, if some flux residue is acceptable.Quote from: coppercone2 on May 08, 2020, 04:33:35 amFor silver on ceramic its most likely they applied silver ink, with a binder formulated to gas off and/or flux the silver particles when its fired, then fired it in a reducing atmosphere to sinter the silver and bond it permanently to the ceramic.Its possible to deposit silver chemically, from solution onto a prepared insulating surface, (Google how to silver mirrors), and once you have a thin flash of silver it would be easy to mask off the areas you didn't want to thicken it then build up the terminals by electroplating, then finally strip the mask and briefly etch to remove the chemically deposited thin flash from between the terminals, that was needed to connect them all together so they could be electroplated. Its also possible to do low temperature vacuum deposition, but its *SLOW*, although it would also serve to provide a conductive surface for electroplating. IIRC fast sputtering or flame deposition involve a much higher surface temperature which would be problematic for most plastics.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 08, 2020, 11:22:24 pm
content: I thought the adhesion of silver from deposition on substrates that are not metal is extremely weak. I did the one with some kind of sugar before as a experiment in school, to coat glass, in order to make a mirror (on like a petri dish) and it rubbed off extremely easily. I think if the initial bond is not good, the rest won't adhere very well, and it will act like a mold, unless it gets much stronger after its fired?Perhaps the weak silver coating gets strong after its red hot for a while, if its thickened with electroplating? So deposit, thicken, heat?You could really make nice parts DIY if you can use machinable ceramic and common methods

author: Ian.M
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 08, 2020, 11:44:05 pm
content: I believe how clean the insulator surface is, and whether or not its been chemically activated has a lot to do with the bond strength of chemically deposited metals. Obviously for a normal (second surface) mirror you cant pre-etch with anything that would mar the optical surface, so its normal to lacquer over the silvering then paint it for further protection. Done right, chemically deposited silver can withstand light burnishing to make a first surface mirror.For plastics, I suspect you'd have to activate the surface by plasma etching to get really good adhesion.If you are working with ceramics that can withstand higher temperatures you've got many more options as a DIYer. e.g. you can get fireable precious metal clays intended for art and jewellery use, which are basically the same stuff as the silver ink used for silver on ceramic SMD terminals. Make a slip out of it, paint it where you want it on your ceramic substrate and you can fire it to burn off the binder resulting in solid silver plate fused to the ceramic. With care it can be torch-fired on a firebrick, but you'll get better results with a small kiln.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 08, 2020, 11:50:23 pm
content: sounds like a excellent technique for home made vacuum tube equipment, tektronix quality without organ theft

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2020, 04:08:45 am
content: Quote from: dman777 on May 07, 2020, 12:37:19 amIts advantages include much greater strength and not dissolving silver, and maybe palladium, electrodes as quickly. In theory it wets better but I have not noticed this.QuoteMy own experience is that it is easier to get a good joint with Sn63Pb37 or Sn60Pb40 than with Sn62Pb32Ag2 unless more flux is used.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2020, 05:08:16 pm
content: Quote from: David Hess on May 09, 2020, 04:08:45 amlead/tin, used for a long time, no precious metals, its a magic mixture

author: Johnny10
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2020, 06:31:56 pm
content: I have had problems with desoldering DIP components I previously soldered with 63/37 solder. Owing to the compressed melt temperature range.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2020, 07:18:19 pm
content: Quote from: Johnny10 on May 09, 2020, 06:31:56 pmstrain causes it to compress and changes the melting point?I have noticed in old equipment sometimes its very difficult to desolder something for no apparent reason where I know they must have used lead solder. is this why? I never gave it much thought (frustrate and forget)

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2020, 07:51:32 pm
content: I sure wish that somebody sold an assortment with small amounts of a number of the most popular solders in a given size. I like to use really fine solder sometimes but I think the flux in the Kester 44 I have been using has dried out, its so old. (I got it in an estate sale, so I was not its original owner)

author: Ian.M
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2020, 08:17:13 pm
content: Rosin flux core like Kester 44 doesn't go bad in normal storage, however surface oxidisation does build up, and if you don't remove it before use, will combine with the flux core, and once the excess flux is used up, vastly reduce solderability. Also, moisture penetration into cut ends over many years can degrade the flux core for a few inches.For any work that doesn't require traceable quality certification, try cleaning your old solder by pulling it through a folded green pan scourer a few times to loosen surface oxide, then wiping with IPA on kitchen paper till it no longer leaves a significant streak of oxides on the paper. That should restore most or all of its original solderability. Don't clean more than you can use in a week or two as the abraded surface has a greater area to accumulate oxides.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2020, 08:19:49 pm
content: Thank you!Will definitely give that a try!

author: SteveyG
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 10, 2020, 10:50:12 am
content: Alloys with silver in give a really shiny finish and excellent results, but the 63/37 is also a well proven alloy.Not completely conclusive, but generally the flux type gives more variability than the alloy.

author: Johnny10
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 10, 2020, 01:32:09 pm
content: I was speaking of the eutectic nature of the solder.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 15, 2020, 02:04:39 am
content: For the purists, does anybody know what solder"has the lowest resistance"?

author: Stray Electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 15, 2020, 02:46:06 am
content: Quote from: dman777 on May 07, 2020, 12:37:19 amI didn't read the whole thread and I'm not going to. But I use 2% and 3% silver loaded Kester solder (64/33/3 IIRC) and I've used it for years and I SWEAR by the stuff! I used 60/40 in the past and 67/33 but the silver loaded stuff makes them look like trying to solder with dog shit! The silver loaded solder melts at a lower MP, it flows and wets MUCH better and it's stronger than lead/tin solder and it has NO slush point. The only down side is trying to find it. I bought the last full rolls that showed up on E-bay. Now people are selling the stuff by the inch there.You can get the data sheet for the Kester solder (all alloys) on Digikey's website. Go look at the melting points for the different allows with and without silver.Re: Multicore. I used the hell out of that stuff when I was a TelCo Central Office installer. I would burn through a roll a day when adding new circuits to the frame room. It's great solder and I highly recommend it but the silver loaded stuff is still better.

author: IDreamChaserI
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: August 18, 2021, 12:57:20 am
content: Quote from: coppercone2 on May 08, 2020, 11:22:24 pmYes, machinable glass ceramic is having great properties.

author: Hohn
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2021, 01:13:09 pm
content: Quote from: coppercone2 on May 07, 2020, 05:18:38 amI agree, but I've actually come full circle on this and find 60/40 to be perfectly useful because moderns and irons have so much better heat throughput. The amount of time a typical joint spends in that plastic range is tiny. Only if you have a huge joint with lots of mass that takes a long time to cool does the difference actually become consequential. On small pads, standard through holes and such, I find SN60 perfectly useful.Although it is puzzling how SN60 became a standard for so long when SN63 is eutectic. What is the advantage of just 3% less tin? Surely the cost difference couldn't be significant?

author: Ian.M
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2021, 02:11:17 pm
content: Quote from: Hohn on August 23, 2021, 01:13:09 pmI believe there were a couple of issues at play:Back in the dark ages of point-to-point wired chassis and literal 'firestick' soldering irons, there was an occasional need to do longer seams for screening cans etc. and an alloy with a reasonable plastic range let you do wiped joints without needing extremely precise temperature control.Also there was no quick and accurate way to analyze the chemical composition of an alloy. Quantitive analysis was all done by wet chemistry, so send your samples off to the lab, and if it was on-site and you put a rush order on it, you *might* have the results back for the next shift, otherwise, the best that could be hoped for was a couple of days later. Therefore near eutectic alloys had a considerable manufacturing advantage over true eutectic alloys because they were easier to produce in bulk than true eutectic alloys, as they were more tolerant of small changes in the composition, and at least for Sn60/Pb40, you could get a reasonable idea if the mix was 'off' by its plastic behavior, simply stirring a blob as it cooled from liquidus to solidus. If it did so too quickly, chuck in some lead, if its too slow, add tin. Nowadays with XRF spectography, you can get the composition 'live' and adjust the alloy in the pot accordingly so its much easier to produce eutectic alloys.Also have you ever known a 'beancounter' refuse a several percent cost saving?

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2021, 08:23:40 pm
content: Quote from: Hohn on August 23, 2021, 01:13:09 pmThe cost difference is significant if your volumes are great enough.I disagree with Ian.M about seams. Despite trying, I have noticed no different between using Sn60 and Sn63 in any application under any conditions.