Now humans must be EMF resistant. - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: G7PSK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 03, 2014, 09:26:57 am
content: Now humans must be EMF resistant, well according to the new EU regulations they will need to be. I was sent t6his piece of information today by TWI.http://www.twi-global.com/technical-knowledge/job-knowledge/workers-exposure-to-electromagnetic-fields-from-welding-processes-132/It would appear that the EU has decided that the fields that some have been exposed to since the 1890's are harmful and need to be monitored (no doubt at great expense by a chosen few) It looks to me like a job for the boys situation again.Some thing the EU is extremely good at.

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 03, 2014, 09:48:38 am
content: On the one hand,I've read a number of studies saying electromagnetic radiation is, get this, healthy for you. The benefit correlates with latitude for some reason.And yet, every time I've been exposed, I get acute first degree burns! How can this be!On a more practical note, I was playing with low impedance (<= 50 ohms) tuning coils in the 20MHz range today; physical touch or proximity has very little effect. Evidently I'm quite transparent in that situation, which is handy to know.Tim

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 03, 2014, 11:01:50 am
content: Seems like a waste of money to me.Hopefully it'll just get ignored.

author: G7PSK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 03, 2014, 11:23:54 am
content: Quote from: Hero999 on December 03, 2014, 11:01:50 amWaste of money all right, Ignored here in the UK NO, the elf and safety wont allow that and any one who has not handed over large amounts of cash to the anointed ones with the gizmo will get prosecuted. It will be another milch cow for the government they will hand out licences for a large sum to company's that will conduct the tests who in turn will charge even larger sums to conduct the survey that will be required to write the report that lives in the drawer until elf&safety arrives to inspect it.

author: LukeW
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 03, 2014, 12:05:15 pm
content: I thought this crazy EU stuff on EMF safety regulations was thrown out, or at least postponed, when somebody figured out it would mean completely banning medical MRIs among other things?

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 03, 2014, 12:06:29 pm
content: QuoteThat's how great civilizations launched into their own demise.

author: daqq
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 03, 2014, 12:09:50 pm
content: Perhaps tinfoil hats will finally become a socially accepted piece of protective gear. They'll even stop looking at me like I'm a crazy person! Yet another blow to the foul Reptiloids!

author: LordNobady
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 03, 2014, 12:18:24 pm
content: Long live the EU overlords. With there bureaucratic and there unknowing wisdom to listen to the lobby's with the most money thy will protect all the people from ever making a wrong decision.

author: GEuser
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 03, 2014, 01:01:15 pm
content: This all makes sense actually , then everyone will have to wear a EMF meter detector and it'll only be a coincidence that they will be manufactured and designed lets say in Germany , 100EU each for millions and millions of people and then billions will also be only a coincidence .Then comes the Fart detector so one can pay for Global warming (1EU per Fart?) also linked to the credit card via a satellite link direct .I named this phenomenon a few years back , its called Neurosity (Neur os ity) , squid heads like in Dark City movie .Like thishttp://www.bbc.com/news/technology-30290540, using a gadget to get around , talk , think? yet claims its the demise ? , if only he had TV like 15? years ago , he could have kept up to speed by watching the Terminator movie series with Skynet and others like Predator , Stargate , HAL , and Red Dwarf and the likes ..edited> actually it seems it does not watch Dr Who? either ..

author: con-f-use
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 03, 2014, 02:36:18 pm
content: I know it's your goto-response to blame the EU, when actually you and I are to blame. We didn't care for EU elections. We didn't listen when this stuff was debated and weighed in. We didn't protest, when only thrid-rate politicians went into EU politics. Now we are to blame for idiots in charge pushing through stupid ideas and listening to lobbyists. Go distribute your black-and-white worldview somewhere else. The EU wasn't responsible for the fary-tale economy in France or a Mafioso as head of state in Italy. Nor was it for greedy calculating banks that risked a lot and lost. I have been to Greece and seen their bloated, inefficient and lazily corrupt ways of not doing things. I for one enjoy being able to work in other EU countries, without (as much) paper work, paying in a common currency, being health ensured, not having to pay horrendous roaming or money transfer fees and not having a different charger for every electronic device I ever owned. I like not having to work more than 10h a day and I like teaching students in a EU funded course program. The real reason this stuff happens is because ordinary people become too compliant and self-important, lazy and comfortable. They rather talk big and blame a symptom for the disease.Can we get back to the science of it? I'm not aware of any evidence indicating that this particular kind of EMR is harmful. Are you guys?Fun fact: Turns out rats, that are isolated from background and EMF radiation are more prone to cancer and weak immune response. Turns out small constant damages on the cellular level are actually required for the repair mechanisms to keep working efficiently. Its suspected that both immune response and DNA rapair atrophies without the stimulus of radiation.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 03, 2014, 02:49:15 pm
content: QuoteThat's the fundamental difference between liberals and conservatives: liberals believe that only the government can protect the people, and conservatives think people should be free to make their mistakes.QuoteI have a patent on that,.Actually, it is not far fetched to think a tax will be levied on things that produce greenhouse gases: cows are the biggest offender there - there have been accidents where cow farmhouses blew up due to methane concentration and I'm not kidding here.Actually, some form of methane collectors would be helpful.

author: con-f-use
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 03, 2014, 02:56:04 pm
content: The very word "conservative" (lat. conservare - to keep, to preserve, to retain) means they are static - as in conserve, don't change. The core of conservative belief is that change is bad. Actually liberal in the sense of the word means there should be no rules. In the US these words got twisted somehow (metaphor?). And please, how on earth should a man born poor or sick or handicapped protect himself from the mighty, without help? Don't the US have similar problems as the EU despite a stronger, in your sense of the word, conservative wing?

author: G7PSK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 03, 2014, 04:02:30 pm
content: It is not voters lack of care about EU elections most of the rubbish starts in the unelected council of ministers who come up with things like this and then had it to the EU parliament who can only rubber stamp it. The sale of chain mail underwear should go up.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 03, 2014, 04:10:50 pm
content: QuoteDemocracy has become tyranny of majority.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 03, 2014, 04:28:38 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on December 03, 2014, 04:15:35 pmI can't see why anything needs to change. When it starts to burn, you move your hand away because it's too hot. A lot of the heat will be through conduction, some from radiation (probably mostly due to incandescence than current flow).The only parts of the body which are really at risk are those without pain receptors or little blood flow, such as the eyes, brain and groin which should be far enough away from the weld and/ appropriately shielded a the wavelength/frequency which causes the heating.

author: G7PSK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 03, 2014, 06:15:15 pm
content: Once the British health and safety get hold of it there will be mandatory requirement for every engineering workshop to have a written statement on file as to the amount of magnetic field exposure for workers and procedures on limiting said exposure. I have had health and safety and fire officers tell me that I could not have acetylene cylinders in the workshop due to it being inflammable, would be of no use if it was not. I have filing cabinets full of cosh sheets on everything even if they just say substance is harmless, if I did not health and safety could ask to see the cosh sheet along with a written report as to handling etc, if not ready to hand I can get hefty fines. A lot of it is bureaucratic nonsense and a nightmare. It would of course be no better if we were not in the EU and most likely worse.

author: GEuser
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 03, 2014, 06:50:40 pm
content: A little bit here , a little bit there , just little bits over time (years) , exponential and accumulative , no one really notices , thenand in the meantime Ha Ha Ha Haimo of course this time .

author: hamdi.tn
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 03, 2014, 07:18:28 pm
content: Quote from: GEuser on December 03, 2014, 01:01:15 pmi said the same thing when i was asked to design a PCB to control water level in some water purification solution. As they explained to me, law in France forbid that you just link your indoor sanitation network directly to the public network but you have to install some kind of container and filter so you only throw back to the network a "clean" filtered water and you end up with a tank full of shit, that you have to buy and install and check level every once in a while, and call some specialised company to clean it ... and exactly what i said, the law created the opportunity for some ppl to make money. and force citizen to pay money for a useless service. i can only think that some rich bastard are forcing political decision to get even more rich, that's how the world work anyway since human kind exist, this will not change soon.

author: GEuser
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 03, 2014, 08:15:59 pm
content: Quote from: hamdi.tn on December 03, 2014, 07:18:28 pmYou mean Merde, out here we nearly had forced on us to drink merde/piss and everything else water that had been "cleaned" to supposedly drinking safe quality , people just have no idea what goes down a dunny and its not just shit and piss , anyway it rained and so far we got out of that but I bet its still on the agenda as you have mentioned there will be money in it and saving the planet , they be really really sicko bastards out there .It'll all end and change eventually no doubt about it , Wheneverythingdies and the planet with them .

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 04, 2014, 12:35:49 am
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on December 03, 2014, 10:52:14 pmThere are plenty of pain receptors in the hands which are not a particularly vulnerable part of the body, as far as heating is concerned. The regulations are bullshit. The power level is far too low for any significant heating to occur (look at the numbers, the amount of absorbed energy is tiny, especially at the very low frequencies used in welding). Like you say it's in a hot environment anyway, so there will be more heat transferred to your hands by conduction, than anything else.I recall similar legislation calling into question whether radiographers should be exposed to the strong field created by MRI scanners, despite the fact it's never shown to do anyone any harm.

author: G7PSK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 04, 2014, 09:11:00 am
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on December 03, 2014, 10:52:14 pmI have been in the metal bashing industry for 40 years and have never seen any one with cancer or any other trouble in the hands caused by welding other than the occasional idiot who grabbed the work just after welding without any gloves on.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 04, 2014, 10:29:40 am
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on December 04, 2014, 10:14:18 amI did read the directive and it's total nonsense.We're not talking about other internal organs such as the brain, where it's very possible for slight increases in temperature to cause tissue damage without any pain. Unlike other parts of the body, the hands which have enough pain receptors to tell the brain they're hot enough to be damaged. If it doesn't hurt your hands, then it's not hot enough to cause any damage.That's also a moot point because impossible for the amount of low frequency electromagnetic radiation emitted by welding to cause such heating. Just look at the numbers: the amount of energy absorbed, by capacitive and inductive effects, is far too small.

author: hamdi.tn
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 04, 2014, 10:37:22 am
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on December 03, 2014, 10:52:14 pmactually i don't see the problem , here in Tunisia we use to have septic tanks 40 to 50 years ago ... cause there was practically no public sewers except some main city, but since this network is almost everywhere no one install this tank any more, and if the indoor sanitary network is well build , you rarely need to maintain , you can have problem with it every 5 to 10 year.so yeah i can't see why i will put a septic tank at home again for so much money.

author: timb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 04, 2014, 10:38:20 am
content: mojo-chan is quickly becoming the forum's resident know-it-all nanny state white knight bleeding heart crusader.Mojo-chan, you seem about 20-ish, with, let me guess, either access to money or wealthy parents. Is that about right?Don't worry, your disease will cure itself once you're bitch slapped by the real world.Sent from my Tablet

author: ConKbot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 04, 2014, 01:01:58 pm
content: Quote from: hamdi.tn on December 03, 2014, 07:18:28 pmAre we talking just household/office/commecial sewage with nothing more than what people produce directly (toilets, showers, sink) or an industrial application where they have to manage their water before they dump it into the public sewer. I worked at a place that had lots of monitoring on water discharge lines to make sure solvent was low enough and the ph was correct so the industrial discharge was in compliance with their EPA license to use the public sewer.If the former, thats ridiculous,Around here if there is no public sewer, after water runs though the settling tank it goes out into the leeching field to go back into the ground, though thats only feasible for a house with ~1/4 acre or more IIRC. A public sewer that can handle anything barely more dirty than storm drain? Could the infrastructure not handle it because it was absurdly outdated? Why use scale of economy to your advantage when you can make everyone else pay 10x as much per pound for disposal.http://www.vice.com/video/you-dont-know-shit-part-1-811Looks at NY's waste water treatment. Solids get screened, processed, and some eventually makes it to composting, or a landfill.

author: hamdi.tn
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 04, 2014, 01:06:46 pm
content: Quote from: ConKbot on December 04, 2014, 01:01:58 pmYes.

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 04, 2014, 01:38:19 pm
content: Are there any proper studies of EMF impact on humans? Which levels are safe?

author: dr.diesel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 04, 2014, 02:24:51 pm
content: Guess I'd better not stand between the two 550MW generators at the plant anymore.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 04, 2014, 03:35:47 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on December 04, 2014, 03:13:22 pmDuh, you shouldn't put your head that close to the arc anyway and like I said, the energy absorbed is minimal; using a mobile phone will cause far more heating of your brain tissue!

author: timb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 04, 2014, 03:58:33 pm
content: Mojo, if you're not in your early 20's and haven't started growing out of this yet, then you've got a tough, lonely life ahead my friend.It's been my experience that people with your attitude are generally early-20 something's that still live with their upper-middle class parents (or live off their dime, anyway). The whole weibo shtick and "MY SUPER KAWAII ASIAN GIRLFRIEND \^~^/" things are huge tip offs.Sorry for making assumptions, but that's the image you project: A bit spoiled with no experience in how the real world works.Edit: "My Asian Girlfriend" is the new "my Girlfriend in Canada."Sent from my Tablet

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 04, 2014, 04:04:51 pm
content: Well here they do a little treatment, which is basically remove the rocks, clothing, most of the sand, the pebbles, bodies and such then the remainder is pumped through a mulching pump and then flows through a pipeline out to sea. Kind of sucks to be downwater of the outlet when the tidal pattern changes due to a heavy storm though. A good hnt though is not to eat any local sea life, especially mussels, crustaceans or any fish that comes out of the harbour. There you will be lucky only to have enough lead and mercury per fish to fill a thermometer or make a shotgun pellet. Refinery found a hole in the bottom of a tank of TElead, which has been there for a few decades, while decommissioning the tank. They do not know where the quarter million litres went.As to EMP the doves are quite unfazed sitting on top of the roof in the beam of the cellular antenna arrays. They, along with the Ibis, are quite happy to stay there till feeding time. the geese prefer another roof where they can just drop over the edge 3 floors down when the gosling's are ready to move to the park to the water.

author: jeremy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 04, 2014, 04:49:17 pm
content: Quote from: con-f-use on December 03, 2014, 02:36:18 pmWow, this is really interesting! Do you have any papers/citations on this?

author: mrflibble
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 04, 2014, 05:32:13 pm
content: Quote from: jeremy on December 04, 2014, 04:49:17 pmNot super surprising.Disclaimer up front: different part of the biosphere, and different test conditions, but same area of concerns.They did experimental gardens where they exposed plants to some extra radiation. Primary reason being to increase the rate of mutation and then select the beneficial ones.You plant your botanical variety du jour in a circular patch. Then you put a pole in the middle of that circular patch with a radiation source. In addition to the natural background radiation the plants are now exposed to an extra radiation source, for which the intensity falls of as the usual function of distance to source. And they found that 1) closer to the radiation source meant more mutations on average (no real surprise there). And 2) descendants of plants at some distance that was definitely smaller than infinite did better than plants that were not subjected to this additional radiation. Too close and leafs would get radiation burns and plants would die. Too far, and they would essentially just be getting background radiation. And in some sweet spot they would get juuuust the right amount of radiation to be beneficial.

author: G7PSK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 04, 2014, 06:27:48 pm
content: Our house is on a septic tank. The company that empty's it usually takes the contents to the local sewage works, that is the preferred option these days otherwise it is emptied over farm land. A correctly operating septic tank digests the solids entering it this is a biological procedures and chemicals should not be used , the surplus water goes into a soak away and enters the soil. The resulting solids build up over time and are pumped out, they are relatively harmless hence the spreading on farm land the only reason they pump into the local sewage treatment works is convenience of travel and access, this I know as I asked the driver what happens to the tank contents when it was emptied last spring.

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 04, 2014, 06:30:44 pm
content: Aren't these limits partially based on levels necessary for nerve simulation? This is not aluminium wallpaper kookiness ...When you start getting a metallic taste purely due to EMF it might be time to take a step back.

author: G7PSK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 04, 2014, 06:36:42 pm
content: Never heard of a welder getting a metallic taste from emf while welding, known them get metal fever from breathing fumes.

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 04, 2014, 06:46:09 pm
content: Third resultfrom googling for welding metallic taste ... I don't think they were breathing welding fumesIf you make the fields strong enough a lot of weird shit can happen. It seems to be spot and plastic welding more than traditional welding creating the strongest fields BTW.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 04, 2014, 06:58:11 pm
content: Yes they get something, but look at the welding current. 650A is a lot more than you typically use in welding, where you will go from around 30-300A max with almost all welders, depending on how thick the metals are.Today I was doing some quick and dirty welding, using a 2.5mm rod at 100A ( way too much, but I was basically doing spot welding with the rod), while most of the time I will run at 80A. Highest I have used is 200A from a big 3 phase DC welder, though there the parts being joined could more be described as heavy plate as opposed to cold rolled sheet metal or tubing.

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 04, 2014, 07:04:28 pm
content: I'm just saying, they might be overly cautious ... but to compare these regulations to the cellphone scaremongering is a bit ridiculous. The lower limits are close to levels needed for significant thermal effects, nerve activation for the lower frequency range and significant enough to interfere with implanted medical devices. Lines have to be drawn somewhere, they are arguably drawing them a bit too conservatively but not by orders of magnitude.

author: Phaedrus
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 04, 2014, 07:11:09 pm
content: Regulation should be based on evidence. If there's doubt, do more studies. Find out what the safe limits are, and set them. Regulation should not be passed before a sufficient pool of data is collected; but neither should we fight studies that do seek to determine the risk.People used to scoff at wearing protective gear while machining/welding stainless steel. Now that we know what hexavalent chromium does to the body, no one's laughing anymore. Not for long anyway--lung cancer tends to make that painful.

author: mtdoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 04, 2014, 07:12:16 pm
content: I know nothing about the validity of the regulation in the OP. I wouldn't be surprised at all if it is unnecessary bureaucratic meddling. There are certainly numerous examples of unneeded government regulations. BUT, taking that fact and then arguing that all government health, safety and environmental regulations are unnecessary or evil is not only fallacious logic but says more about the rigid ideology of the person making that point than it contributes any meaningful to the topic.Claiming that concern about worker safety and the environment is somehow a sign of youthful ignorance that one will "grow out of" is just plain silly and demonstrably false. In fact one could easily make the opposite point that someone who claims government regulations to protect worker safety and the environment are unneeded is the sign of someone too young or too uninformed to be aware of the well documented history of masses of workers being killed or maimed prior to government regulations being put in place that improve workplace safety or the environmental devastation, pollution, filthy air and water that was common in the US before the environmental reforms of the 1970s,Are there lots of unneeded and misguided government regulations? Yes, of course - but just because this is true it does not logically follow that all and any such regulations are unnecessary.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 04, 2014, 08:33:39 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on December 04, 2014, 05:14:51 pmThe frequency produced by welding gear is several orders of a magnitude lower than that of a mobile phone.It's true that high intensity radiation at low frequencies does have a biological effect but it needs to be orders of a magnitude higher than that produced by welding gear. Apart from the thermal effects, currents induced in the nerves can interfere with the central nervous system, in a similar manner to electric shock. The E-field is too low to cause this because the welding gear runs at an extra low voltage. The H-field won't be a problem either and you don't even have to use Lenz's law to work that out. The human body is too poorer conductor of electricity to allow enough current to flow to cause a problem. Perhaps if you wrap a few turns of welding cable round your head something bad may happen.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 04, 2014, 09:13:20 pm
content: Quote from: Hero999 on December 04, 2014, 08:33:39 pmIs it, though? Spark gap transmitters can produce frequencies into the hundreds of MHz. Welding is pretty close to that. Sure - it's not 1.8GHz - but it's within an order of magnitude, and of considerably higher peak power.

author: johansen
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 04, 2014, 10:57:01 pm
content: QuoteQuoteI think that maybe you have no idea what you're talking about.

author: timb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 04, 2014, 11:09:51 pm
content: God forbid they find out how much radiation a 2000 watt home microwave spews out! I'd hate to have to garb up just to make a Hot Pocket.Hoooooooooot Pockets.Sent from my Tablet

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 04, 2014, 11:29:14 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on December 04, 2014, 09:13:20 pmSpark transmitters have a tuning network and are specifically designed to radiate. Indeed it's possible to design such a transmitter to operate at 1.8GHz and well beyond but a welder isn't tuned. There will all sorts of harmonics but that's just a tiny proportion of the energy emitted and well under that of a mobile phone. If emissions were that strong at the frequencies you're talking about, then it would interfere with mobile phone networks, TV and radio over a fairly wide area.

author: johansen
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 05, 2014, 12:09:26 am
content: the radiation from the arc isn't significant if the bulk field of 1mT is doing the body damage.. God forbid we sleep on top of neodymium magnet filled blankets lol..think about this.. most high power welding is done with dc.. and the current has a strong 360hz ripple due to the three phase supply, but the actual magnetic field at the welder's body is going to be really stable. if you wrap a coil of wire around your head, you might pick up, maybe 100mVac, and most of that at the fundamental frequency of the ripple current.holding a 1 watt RF transmitter right next to your ear is a completely different problem.

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 05, 2014, 03:32:24 am
content: Quote from: Hero999 on December 04, 2014, 11:29:14 pmYou seem to imply that, because it wasn't intended to be an oscillator, means it simply won't oscillate at all!Reality has a *really hard time* interpreting intention. And you thought people were bad enough...Nay, on the contrary, there's this thing called EMC (electromagnetic compatibility), which largely consists of intentionally attempting to break unintentional radiators and resonators.One way to think of a welder: it's an arc at one end (strong negative resistance), going around a loop of cable (which is probably strewn about randomly, thus containing quite a bit of area and loop inductance). The machine end may have bypass (MF or RF) at the output, or may not (filter chokes?). In either case, the cables will act as a resonant loop antenna at some frequency. If nothing else, the transient when closing or opening the circuit will be quite strong -- all that inductance is charged to a sizable current, and will generate a zap of hundreds to thousands of volts no problem.There's also the apparently neglected matter of HF start, which is standard on many welders, and basically consists of a Tesla coil wired in series with the welding leads. So, yeah.Quote from: johansen on December 05, 2014, 12:09:26 amHmm, give or take if it's 360Hz from a rectified industrial DC welder, or >20kHz from an inverter type, that's probably not far off, assuming the arc isn't singing and is stable and quiet. This might be typical of TIG at a moderate current level.I'm willing to bet the transient during other modes of operation (in particular, starting and breaking the arc) will produce more like 10V peak. Depending largely on where the cables are, of course. This will be worst for TIG HF start and MIG (which does not arc smoothly).Tim

author: G7PSK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 05, 2014, 09:04:14 am
content: The problems of deep sea welding are totally different from welding in normal atmosphere, apart from needing far higher currents to keep the arc alight most welding is not done while beeing submerged in many atmosphere pressure of electrolyte which will be conducting a lot of the current and hence the magnetic field away past the operator diver. Making legislation to cover all welding operations when the problem only occurs in sub-sea welding operations and wet welding to boot not in hyperbaric welding chambers all it will do is drive fabrication away from Europe and send even more of it to China and India or Turkey than already is going to such countries.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 05, 2014, 11:21:20 am
content: I have a 1100W Panasonic microwave. It also has a 1500W convection oven built in. You can use both at the same time but only up to ~2000W total input power as it has a 10A input fuse.Inverter technology makes the high power microwaves more practical. Most cheap microwaves still use iron core transformers and voltage doublers.

author: dr.diesel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 05, 2014, 03:13:57 pm
content: Most US outlet are 15A, or 1800watts, some/many are 20A/2400w.All of my kitchen outlets are 20A with 20 amp main breaker, most of the rest of the house is 15A. Don't know how standard that is, but just my example.

author: timb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 05, 2014, 03:21:06 pm
content: They do, in fact make them. In fact, tom66's post states you can use the microwave and convection oven at the same time, up to 2000W total input power, so it's not an issue of outlet power.A lot of kitchens in new construction for quite some time have included a separate, dedicated 20A run for a microwave. A lot are placed above a stovetop (with a built-in vent fan on the bottom) or in a special nook built into the cabinetry.The last two houses I've lived in have been like this.(I've got an 1800W microwave downstairs.)Sent from my Tablet

author: Stonent
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 05, 2014, 03:23:00 pm
content: Quote from: LordNobady on December 03, 2014, 12:18:24 pmThe larger the government gets, the smaller the citizen becomes.

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 05, 2014, 03:56:32 pm
content: German standard is 16A, i.e. about 3800W. Commonly kitchens got a 3-phase socket for the cooker and oven. 11.5kW should be enough for a nice welder or microwave

author: johansen
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 05, 2014, 04:14:31 pm
content: what's the difference between a 2000w microwave and a 500watt microwave? --both are designed to deliver less than 1mw/cm^2 10 cm from the door seal....?highest i recall reading for household magnetrons is 67% efficiency, and less from the outlet. so, a "2KW" microwave is probably 1200 watts into 1 liter of water..

author: ConKbot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 05, 2014, 05:10:14 pm
content: Quote from: dr.diesel on December 05, 2014, 03:13:57 pmPretty standard in the US, and generally code for the kitchen to have 2 (or more) 20A circuits. However you generally dont want to expect more than 80% continuous on a breaker, when you're sizing breakers to a load to minimize nuisance trips from start up surges etc... So 12A/1440W and 16A/1920W for 15 an 20A breakers.Gotta be able to power a toaster, coffee maker and microwave at the same time! Otherwise you cant start your coffee, put a bagel in the toaster, cook an egg in a mug in the microwave for an easy breakfast sandwich.That being said, when is the EU gonna start limiting microwaves to 600W to save power compared to the power hungry 1200/1500W units