EEVblog #840 - Yamaha M3000 Mixing Console Teardown - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 13, 2016, 11:59:53 am
content: Dave tears down a monster of a mixing console!A Professional 40 channel Yamaha M3000 mixer designed for sound reinforcement and concerts.

author: alexanderbrevig
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2016, 01:13:38 pm
content: That's some old school analog mixing console porn

author: obiwanjacobi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2016, 01:26:09 pm
content: Dave mentioned it not being build to a price point, but I think it always is. Adds up these parts for a mixing console so you want to be as efficient as possible.I have repaired a few of them (although no top studio grade ones - but semi-pro) and they're all sort of built the same (and work the same). Single sided pcb's usually. Although I repaired a Behringer - which is known for being pretty cheap- that had a double sided board, but it was a single board for 8 channels.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 13, 2016, 01:55:13 pm
content: I would love a mixer like that - but if I dared suggest I could take it off Dave's hands, I'd be dispatched to the garage and end up sleeping on it.Nice vid.

author: Salas
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2016, 02:08:22 pm
content: Single sided and through-hole is as repair friendly as it gets and those beasts had this aspect on top of their priority list. There should be some scratchy faders as expected in that old guy but the elcos are holding. Ruggedness (hence the chassis brass spine beams), accessible maintenance, and low noise was the name of the game in such stuff. Even low noise Toshiba 2SC2240s seen in the phantom module. I had mixed live music professionally night in-night out on such Yamaha consoles and they were always enough good sounding and dependable for the job.

author: SNGLinks
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2016, 02:13:15 pm
content: It could be cut down to make it more usable and get plenty of spares in the process!

author: Salas
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2016, 02:17:14 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on January 13, 2016, 02:12:24 pmGood consoles, not like Midas Heritage 3000 grade of course ($$$), but very honest gear

author: PeterZ
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2016, 02:26:54 pm
content: SSM2018T trimless VCA chip

author: Salas
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2016, 02:35:28 pm
content: Here is it powered up in a short check video I found on YouTube for completeness

author: dr.diesel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2016, 02:37:18 pm
content: For the non audiophile like myself, what does/did this thing retail for? Are smick Pro models these days all DSP?

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 13, 2016, 02:46:19 pm
content: Don't know it's original RRP, but there's a second hand M3000A available in north-east USA for $1,667.00http://www.gearsource.com/catalog/listing/61907I thought this was interesting...Warranty48 Hours

author: Salas
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2016, 02:48:54 pm
content: An M3000 maybe US$2000 but if in top condition rather circa US$5000. A Midas Heritage 3000 in top condition maybe US$30000

author: Salas
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2016, 03:00:00 pm
content: Quote from: dr.diesel on January 13, 2016, 02:37:18 pmYep, but analogue mixers are still around because of many second hand bargains and straightforwardly fast to operate. Mostly for foldback mixing (for the stage monitoring) not so much front of house (FOH) in bigger events anymore

author: SL4P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2016, 03:12:38 pm
content: If you like real audio desk porn, go look for AMS /Neve / Calrec / Euphonix and SSL...Since the 70s these guys have been making studio consoles that sell for upwards of A$200K

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2016, 03:14:27 pm
content: Quote from: dr.diesel on January 13, 2016, 02:37:18 pmYep.I know a guy who has a 96-channel beast at home. It looks a lot like that one but has more LCDs and LEDs.Every single knob and slider on it is motorized, you can press buttons and every single control moves into position for the track you were working on. Every control also lights up when you touch it (capacitive sensing?) It's a schmick piece of kit.But these days he doesn't use it much. It's all PC based editing/mixing with multiple monitors.

author: dentaku
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2016, 03:27:08 pm
content: I haven't been able to find photos of the pots used in this thing. I know it was too much trouble for Dave to look at that part because you need to remove all the knobs and even more screws. Markus Fuller rarely disassembles those bits anymore too because it's just a lot of the same parts repeated over and over but I always like looking at audio gear and what kind of quality the pots are.

author: halkabar
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2016, 03:55:03 pm
content: About a year ago I got hands dirty with a former soviet made analog mixing console... The smell of decades worth of audio engineer sweat is priceless!

author: frogblender
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2016, 05:15:27 pm
content: "Bad Ass Semi Corp." - lol.

author: PA0PBZ
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2016, 07:10:42 pm
content: I think the board under the master control was not fully extended to the right side because that is where the side panel goes on the little brother.

author: ciccio
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2016, 09:40:35 pm
content: I designed analog mixing console for a living for many years (about 35, with some interruptions).I hope that this long post will not annoy the readers...My curiosity pushed me to open every console I could put my hands on, and truly appreciated Yamaha's models for their technical (and sound) quality and reliability and mechanical robustness: this is VERY important: in live tours it was not unusual to repair broken pots when a stage hand walked on the console, or to have a upper panel bent, and all the channel's pots broken, for some mysterious accident (the console fell off the stage).I remember well an old Midas desk, a model LS4, 32 into 8 into 2, live sound console: a friend bought one in 1980, at the cheap sum of 17,559 pounds ex works (about 60.000 to 100.000 pounds to-day), then the price of a small house..It sounded extremely well, better than my designs, and was built like a tank (you needed two or four very strong men to move it).When left in the summer sun, the frame heated and expanded, and channel 1 (the leftmost module) worked intermittently because it disconnected from the bus PCB. We had to adjust some clearances.What I can criticise of this Yamaha model (and many other model of the same Company) is the extremely complicated wiring of this console: too many cables, too many connectors, too many wiring looms...Open a Soundcraft or an Amek of the same age: most of the wiring is done with a flat cable or a bus board connecting all the modules.I read previous posters asking why there are still analog mixers on the market: the reason is the ease of use in respect to the digital ones: a competent mixing engineer can use any analog mixer after a very short time, whilst any digital mixer is quite different from the others, and there is a step learning curve. If you have a desk in a location that will be used by different mixing engineers, analog is better.About the single sided vs double side PCB, and the SMD vs through-hole components discussion, you must consider that the channel's PCB main dimension is dictated by the number of controls (pots and switches) and the distance between them, for ease of operation. Most of the times this allows for a single sided board.The number of boards that will be manufactured is usually very high, especially for input channel's boards (there are from 8 to 48 of them in a desk), so automatic placement of through-hole parts is economically reasonable (surface mounting is most of the times impractical because a single sided board needs space for traces under the components). Automatic placements allows for a lot of wire jumpers (or Zero Ohm resistors) to be used at almost no cost.In fact, only the modules that are lower in number (eg master, groups, effects) were double sided.For consoles that were intended for large numbers, we (and some competitor) used another solution : the channel's PCB was single-sided, and it carried all controls and connectors and some large component, whilst about all of the module's circuitry was on a custom hybrid circuit.This resulted in a simplified production process (hybrids were tested and adjusted by the supplier, with automatic equipment) and an easier maintenance (if no pot is broken, replace the hybrid).Now a double sided board of decent quality has about the same cost than a single sided one, so a channel is built with SMD standard parts on a double sided board.Best regards

author: Porto
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2016, 12:29:08 am
content: Bloody Hell......

author: AF6LJ
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 14, 2016, 12:50:33 am
content: That was fun.

author: bigsky
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2016, 01:12:47 am
content: Quote from: Salas on January 13, 2016, 02:08:22 pmThe 2SC2240s will be the first stage of the balanced mic preamp before an opamp - a simpler version of the circuit here -http://www.sound.westhost.com/project66.htm- note the position of the gain control, which needs to be a reverse log pot.The construction of this mixer is rather unusual and reflects its Japanese origin - normally mixers of that size will have a single vertical board for each channel, as ciccio said, either linked by ribbon cable, or plugging into a motherboard.Despite Dave's lack of knowledge, most of what he said was basically correct - one mistake was that the faders are not high quality - they looked cheap and cheerful carbon track ones, possibly made by Alps. However, they may just control a DC voltage for the VCA rather than passing audio (can't be bothered to read the manual to check).The digital side of it is almost certainly just programmable mutes for the input channels, possibly for the outputs as well - recallable by the front panel switches or the MIDI input.Large analogue mixers are pretty much obsolete now as digital (ie DSP) has virtually taken over.

author: SteigsdB
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2016, 02:26:55 am
content: Quote from: bigsky on January 14, 2016, 01:12:47 amBite your tongue! :pIt's true that many tours these days will opt for DigiCo or Avid desks due to the small footprints and built in processing/dynamics, but there are still many engineers who prefer the sound of analog.The Midas XL4 is one such desk still enjoying its share of road time. This 270+kg behemoth is pretty much considered the Gold Standard of analog live consoles, and it's substantially easier to disassemble!

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 14, 2016, 02:51:43 am
content: Quote from: ciccio on January 13, 2016, 09:40:35 pmThat digital learning curve is not insignificant. On an analog mixer you know what each knob does and can see it's state by just looking at it. There are no 'alternate' functions - what you see is what you have.FWIW a mixing matrix is a simple enough concept to understand - but is a bit more of a challenge to use effectively.

author: SteigsdB
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2016, 04:03:42 am
content: I think that learning curve has diminished in the past few years.Just like their analog brethren, the majority of the digital desks on the market still handle signal flow in a somewhat traditional way. It's gotten to the point that if you can navigate a digital console from manufacturer A, you'll likely be able to find your way around manufacturer B's product with a small amount of digging. Functions are largely the same but some of the nomenclature varies.That being said, you still probably wouldn't want to walk up on one you're not familiar with 5 minutes before you need to use it.

author: crispy_tofu
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2016, 04:09:47 am
content: Quote from: SteigsdB on January 14, 2016, 02:26:55 amUS$26000 used?!

author: rx8pilot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2016, 04:18:04 am
content: Brings back memories of my first career in sound reinforcement. I used the fancier PM3000 and PM4000's for big shows but this model was similar in size. No problem when you have fork lifts and 100 huge guys to move it around.These things were VERY basic in that they mix and offer parametric equalization. All effects and dynamics control have to loop through to many racks of processing. It kept the FOH engineers very very busy compared to today's integrated digital systems that can be automated. Any minute problem with anything would create noise and buzzing that was a PITA to track down.Good memories and bad memories. I don't miss analog for a second.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2016, 04:18:11 am
content: what's to prevent someone from simply hooking up all the pots to 10 bit adc's , collect their state over usb and then stream in audio using a MOTU.has been done. feels like an analog machine but fits in a 1 u 19 inch unit...mixing happens in digital domain.http://www.motu.com/products/avb/1248

author: rx8pilot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2016, 04:24:09 am
content: 10bits?

author: DrGeoff
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2016, 04:36:18 am
content: Quote from: SL4P on January 13, 2016, 03:12:38 pmYep, and the channels strips are individually replaceable. Much more serviceable in a short space of time.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2016, 04:42:19 am
content: Quote from: DrGeoff on January 14, 2016, 04:36:18 amThat's great for studio desks, but its hard to get the robustness you need for mobile use with all those separate little front panel pieces.

author: DrGeoff
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2016, 04:44:25 am
content: Quote from: rx8pilot on January 14, 2016, 04:18:04 amYeah, likewise. Dodgy channel strips, re-patching the back panel because one strip decided to pick up the local radio station etc etc.Then again, easier to re-patch then to deal with a crash and re-boot in the middle of a gig

author: SteigsdB
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2016, 06:44:06 am
content: Quote from: crispy_tofu on January 14, 2016, 04:09:47 amThey sold new for just over US$100k.Pocket change though compared to this Calrec Apollo that will run you, as configured, just shy of US$1M.BTW, Dave I have to say as I watch your videos and a lot of the tech you describe goes right over my head, it was fun to watch you wander around that Yamaha a bit lost on the items I use everyday. Great video!

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2016, 07:23:51 am
content: Quote from: SteigsdB on January 14, 2016, 06:44:06 amObsolete tech. Now it's all like this:

author: SteigsdB
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2016, 07:32:28 am
content: The raven is a cool piece of gear, indeed.You'd never mix the superbowl on one though.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2016, 07:50:36 am
content: Quote from: SteigsdB on January 14, 2016, 07:32:28 amI only posted that one because the picture was pretty and it shows the way things are going. I'm sure there's one out there that youcanmix the Superbowl on.(But will it cost less than $1 million? And will it be roadie-proof? I'm guessing that thing isn't meant to be taken on the road...)

author: SteigsdB
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2016, 09:03:25 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on January 14, 2016, 07:50:36 amActually, that's exactly what it's setup for. It's in here:This truck, and the other one that accompanies and completes it, were built for NBC's Nascar coverage by Game Creek video. I was with a crew that used it for college football afterwards. The truck(s) that end up at the superbowl will be very similar designs.It'd be awesome to see Dave do a teardown on one of the Kalypso switchers..

author: ciccio
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2016, 09:05:12 am
content: Quote from: DrGeoff on January 14, 2016, 04:36:18 amThis is not true: a module holding 8 channel strips is less resistant to flex than 8 single strip modules (the panels are usually U-shaped).The reason for multiple channel modules is economical (the cost is lower) and, sometimes more important, that you can pack more channels in the same space (there is no wasted space from the sides of the single, u-shaped panels) : if the modules are built using 1 mm thick sheet metal, you lose 2 mm (plus the necessary tolerance, plus paint thickness), let's say 3 mm each channel. Multiply this for a 64 modules frame and you lose the space for 3-4 modules. This can be important, especially when the console size is fixed by other reasons, as for rack mountable small units.It is usually easier to fix a console built with single modules.Best regards

author: Chasm
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2016, 09:28:44 am
content: Quote from: SteigsdB on January 14, 2016, 09:03:25 amThere are a few videos where the Kayenne is down to module level, there should be some for the Kalypso too.The control surfaces are heaps of reed switches for the most part. OLED displays and RBG leds too.Edit: Don't ever use the Toggle View button, it fsks up your post...

author: adh
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2016, 09:29:39 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on January 14, 2016, 07:23:51 amWhen we though about designing modular low-cost-ish control surface (primarily for DMX control, but digital mixing was also considered) e thought that either multitouch monitor or just capacitive touch sensors and LEDs were the way to go. But apparently, for usability it's important to have physical faders and knobs for tactile feedback and ability to discern position of control by touch.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2016, 09:57:00 am
content: Quote from: SteigsdB on January 14, 2016, 09:03:25 amI guess there's "on the road" and "on the road!".

author: orion242
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 15, 2016, 01:47:33 am
content: Quote from: dentaku on January 13, 2016, 03:27:08 pmDitto.I was hoping to see what the hell they use for pots in the thing. A quick tear down (datasheet if lucky) look of the actual look of the slider and pots used should be interesting. Can't blame Dave for not wanting to pull 300 knobs, 200 screws, etc to free a board to look at the top side. Hacking the bastard open with a metal saw and simply cutting one out via all means necessary would have been my access method. Right angle grinder with carbide blade would liberate one in < 5min....so much for finding a taker after that thoughMust say the sliders on the outside look pretty boring, but I have to assume these are not your $0.25 cheapies on ebay. Being shipped around and expected to last, they must be the brick dunny of pots.

author: westfw
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2016, 01:57:00 am
content: QuoteDitto; I was hoping to see the pots/switches closer up, and how they were connected to the PCBs. (I didn't see pot-like connections to the PCBs in the video; was there another layer, or some sort of wiring harness?)

author: rx8pilot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2016, 02:05:42 am
content: Penny & Giles supplied many of the linear pots for high-end audio. Wonder who made these. The M3000 is the low-end of the high-end of the day.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2016, 11:37:16 am
content: Quote from: adh on January 14, 2016, 09:29:39 amIt might be good to have half a dozen physical knobs as well (user assignable).They'd have to be motorized of course. Motorized sliders are cool. Ghostly.

author: Salas
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2016, 07:34:13 pm
content: Quote from: rx8pilot on January 15, 2016, 02:05:42 amEnough PM5000s still kicking around and appreciated nonetheless. One such unit featured in this vid.

author: Bassman59
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2016, 08:34:50 pm
content: Quote from: bigsky on January 14, 2016, 01:12:47 amYes, the M3000 was a VCA desk so the channel (and group) faders did not pass audio, just the control voltage.

author: bob808
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2016, 10:48:47 pm
content: I'd love me two of those vu-meters

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2016, 11:25:55 pm
content: Quote from: bob808 on January 15, 2016, 10:48:47 pmThat's easy:http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=vu+meter

author: bob808
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2016, 11:27:14 pm
content: They look even better as they are round! Thx

author: SteigsdB
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 16, 2016, 02:02:26 am
content: Quote from: Salas on January 15, 2016, 07:34:13 pmMan, that's a lot of 160's in that rack.. Nice mix of vintage and early digital processing in the outboard too.Interesting that there was a Galileo processor in there when the PA looked to be all V-Dosc.Was that just a random find or do you know whos rig that was?

author: _Andrew_
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 16, 2016, 03:30:22 am
content: I'm finding the same with live sound that digital desks have taken overhttp://www.cadac-sound.com/p/digital/http://www.soundcraft.com/products/mixing-consoles/vi-serieshttp://www.yamahaproaudio.com/global/en/products/mixers/

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 16, 2016, 03:35:27 am
content: Not surprising. Once you're in the digital domain, noise figures essentially become inconsequential. Propagation delay is more of a concern - but with the performance of today's electronics, I would expect that is well in hand.

author: Salas
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 16, 2016, 12:09:04 pm
content: Quote from: SteigsdB on January 16, 2016, 02:02:26 amRandom find but I would easily bet its a French reinforcement contractor's system

author: djQUAN
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 17, 2016, 03:50:56 pm
content: Quote from: frogblender on January 13, 2016, 05:15:27 pmBA part numbers are by Rohm Semiconductors.It is an led vu meter driver.http://media.digikey.com/pdf/Data%20Sheets/Rohm%20PDFs/BA682A.pdf

author: Godzil
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 17, 2016, 04:08:05 pm
content: I would be really interested in what an Audiophile/fool would think about the construction of such a (real) pro materialI'm sure they would be really disapointed

author: German_EE
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 17, 2016, 08:51:30 pm
content: Oh yeah. no special cables, no magic rocks, no wooden knobs to avoid adding 'color' to the sound, just solid engineering.One thing I really learned from this video is that in a complicated system like a mixer ground isGROUND, something substantial and (hopefully) noise free where parts are connected together by thick copper straps. Everything on that ground bus is therefore at 0,000 volts DC and AC.

author: rx8pilot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 17, 2016, 09:36:21 pm
content: Quote from: German_EE on January 17, 2016, 08:51:30 pmI was a former audiofool in my younger days. When I got into professional sound reinforcement and recording my eyes opened to reality. Even in multi-millin dollar studios, I could not find the ridiculous pseudo-science found in high-end consumer audio. It was very deliberate and clean electronic designs that were very carefully system integrated. Lots of attention paid to clean grounds as stated earlier. Most studios had a technical ground that was far away from mechanical - air conditioning and lights, etc. Microphones had some amount of mystery and voodoo in the marketing, followed by pre-amps.In live sound, durability, flexibility, etc were dominant design drivers. Audio quality needed to be good, but not exotic. Anyway, my views formed from ridiculous audiophile magazine articles quickly faded. I also learned that the last thing that I wanted my music to sound like is what it sounded like in the studio. The engineering goal in a studio is to get a flat mix with reasonable dynamics so that it sound reasonable in as many environments as possible - home, car, headphones, cassette, CD, LP, etc. I always tweaked my own playback systems to sound the way I like, not some super flat Urei coaxial time aligned studio monitor with Yamaha NS10's as the shit reference.I like music and great quality playback - but the audio foolishness makes me laugh every day.

author: alexanderbrevig
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 18, 2016, 04:49:46 pm
content: @rx8pilot did you try to use one of those NS10 bass drivers as kick drum mic? If you're in the recording business you should try that, makes for fun times playing with the real low end.In my side business as a live audio engineer I use Soundcraft Si. It is a dream to work with

author: rx8pilot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 18, 2016, 11:23:36 pm
content: Quote from: alexanderbrevig on January 18, 2016, 04:49:46 pmI traded my budding career in audio for TV/Film production. Never used the NS10 in the opposite direction, sounds like a fun experiment though. I would like to build my own studio for my own use someday. As soon as it becomes a career, it becomes work. I like sound reinforcement and recording too much to ruin it by getting paid, lol.The Si is insanely compact for what it does. The last Soundcraft I used was a Europa which was roughly the size and weight of Europe.

author: SteigsdB
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 20, 2016, 03:34:08 am
content: Quote from: rx8pilot on January 18, 2016, 11:23:36 pmNo doubt, plus once in the case it wouldn't fit sideways in a standard truck.Really messed up the truck tetris

author: madisv
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: January 13, 2017, 08:10:09 am
content: Hi guysHere's one more video of destroying the console, this time in a bit more brutal way.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H8UoPj0IW5E&feature=youtu.beThe background is, that Yamaha had a discount program for new consoles. You just had to prove that you have destroyed the old one.As you see, it didn't break easily