Microsoft broke into my office and vandalized my work!! - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: AlfBaz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2021, 02:15:03 am
content: Ok a bit diva-ish but really wtf?So I left my pc on overnight to log some important data to work on the next dayI enter the office next morning and instead of a graph populated with measurements I'm facing the login screenI log in and peruse the event log, Microsoft have decided to install updates and restart the machine, terminating the running measurement program and loosing all of it's valuable data.The only professional thing about W10 Pro is the professional way in which they ruined my day!They "virtually" did exactly what the title says albeit remotely

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2021, 02:25:44 am
content: It's pretty easy to disable if you know where to look.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2021, 02:27:34 am
content: Bummer. After they did that to me, I fixed the problem: (Windows Pro only, unfortunately)

author: blacksheeplogic
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2021, 02:29:25 am
content: Quote from: amyk on November 11, 2021, 02:25:44 amBS unless you pay for pro.After doing a bunch of 'suggested' fixes and still having the reboots, I found the only way (at least right now without buying PRO) is to enable Metered Connection.

author: AlfBaz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2021, 02:38:29 am
content: How many time do you have to set that?It appears to be something that has to be added as a weekly maintenance task to ensure MS haven't changed it back because I know for a fact I have set it to notify and more than once

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2021, 02:41:07 am
content: Quote from: AlfBaz on November 11, 2021, 02:38:29 amIt's a Group Policy set by the administrator (me). I don't think Microsoft can reset it. It's more than their business is worth to mess with administrator policies.

author: blacksheeplogic
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2021, 02:43:03 am
content: Quote from: AlfBaz on November 11, 2021, 02:38:29 amSetting Metered Connection is the only method I have found that does not require you to reset it. Once set it stays set. You just have to remember to manually do updates once in a while to keep your system up to date.

author: blacksheeplogic
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2021, 02:44:57 am
content: Quote from: IanB on November 11, 2021, 02:41:07 amSome of us don't want to pay MS for the Pro edition just to get the policy editor. Hacking the register on Home Edition does not work.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2021, 02:47:46 am
content: Quote from: blacksheeplogic on November 11, 2021, 02:44:57 amUnderstood, but AlfBaz is running Win 10 Pro, so this option is available to him.

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2021, 02:49:13 am
content: Turning off all the related services and scheduled tasks also works.

author: AlfBaz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2021, 02:56:43 am
content: Looking at the group policies now, thanks IanB.Maybe I need to change the title to MS exposes idiot to his clients

author: AlfBaz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2021, 02:58:44 am
content: The only thing I have ever needed to configure in group policies was to enable synchronising databases

author: edpalmer42
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2021, 03:11:04 am
content: I always run a software firewall on my systems. Although it also provides protection against incoming attacks, its main purpose is to block outgoing access. The only programs that I allow to 'phone home' are those that need the Internet for their basic functions i.e. a browser or email program.It takes a bit of work configuring it, but after that, all unwanted outgoing accesses from the OS itself are blocked. Other apps are just as easy to block. No telemetry, no automatic updates. Very few problems. YMMV.Ed

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2021, 03:13:28 am
content: Where I work, IT has some sort of application that warns of updates that require a reboot at least 24 hours in advance, with lab machines having the option to delay updates for up to a week, probably even more if a good reason is given to IT.It's all a reminder of why I don't use Windows on my personal machines. Linux updates often don't need rebooting and the ones that do let you reboot when you want to after applying the update, without taking forever to finish on the next boot.

author: AlfBaz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2021, 03:17:36 am
content: Quote from: edpalmer42 on November 11, 2021, 03:11:04 amJust wondering what software you use, assuming it's not the router.I ask because I was under the impression windows firewall is hard coded to allow windows telemetry including updates

author: BradC
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2021, 04:03:24 am
content: Quote from: edpalmer42 on November 11, 2021, 03:11:04 amYears ago I started treating Windows as an appliance to run the windows specific software I needed to run (Office, AutoCAD, Revit and a few others) and constrained it to a VM with absolutely no outside access (not even external DNS resolution).It's faster, more reliable and more predictable than running on the bare metal, plus all the other advantages of being able to snapshot/backup/rollback the VM filesystem.I acknowledge it's not for everyone, but it works for me.

author: edpalmer42
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2021, 04:09:01 am
content: Quote from: AlfBaz on November 11, 2021, 03:17:36 amI've never heard that windows firewall is hard coded, but it is configured to allow almost all outgoing access by any app, not just telemetry and updates. I'm not that familiar with windows firewall, but I did play with it and I believe that I had it set up to block updates. But it was supposed to give me a popup when an app tried to access the net and I never got that to work. In any case, if you load an external firewall program, windows firewall shuts down. It's likely that any firewall program could be configured to do what you want.I chose Comodo's Internet Security. You could also use their Firewall program. They're both free, just make sure that you click the correct link. They're similar packages, but have a few different features. Both include the firewall and a module that runs in memory and pops up if a program tries to do something unexpected. You can set different notification levels for this. I normally run 'Paranoid Mode'.https://www.comodo.com/home/internet-security/free-internet-security.php?af=3272https://www.comodo.com/home/internet-security/firewall.phpOne thing I like to see is that after I boot up, the network icon in the system tray says that as far as Windows is concerned, I'm not connected to the net! That doesn't change unless and until I use a program like Firefox or Thunderbird. Then Windows realizes that I am connected and updates the icon.Ed

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2021, 04:28:49 am
content: Why anyone finds this even remotely acceptable is beyond me, but you'll find corporate apologists justifying it disturbingly frequently. It is the primary reason I absolutely refuse to install Win10 on any of my personal devices. Bottom line is I should not have to constantly fight with my operating system to keep it working the way I want. I almost never shut down my system, I keep all sorts of stuff open that I'm working on and an uncommanded reboot is a huge pain.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2021, 04:54:09 am
content: Quote from: blacksheeplogic on November 11, 2021, 02:29:25 amEnabling the Metered Connection for all network adapters seems to be the most reliable way to disable unintended updates even on PRO for me.

author: emece67
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2021, 07:11:06 am
content: .

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2021, 07:34:45 am
content: It's totally ridiculous that a person must jump through such hoops in the first place. I understand that there are valid reasons to strongly encourage most people to stay updated, but I demand full control over the process on my systems, this is not negotiable. There must be a simple setting (that STAYS the way I set it) to enable manual control or I will not use it.

author: Messtechniker
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2021, 07:51:01 am
content: Simply search for a Windows 10 update disable tool.Installed one on my audio recoding notebook.Its not nice when Windows decides toreboot during a live recoding session.

author: Mark
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2021, 08:18:10 am
content: I use Windows Update Blocker from Sordum. it has blocked all updates so far. I enable updates on my schedule.

author: PKTKS
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2021, 08:57:15 am
content: I am still to figure why people use and pay such a crock of shit product ...We are in the 20s why wtf anyone would just tell these jerks to fuck off...Go to hell ms and take your hands off my hardware... very simpleDid that in the 90s..Never had prejudice again with these assholesPaul

author: BradC
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2021, 10:46:55 am
content: Quote from: PKTKS on November 11, 2021, 08:57:15 amBecause some people use (for either need or want) software that only runs on Windows. It's pretty simple really. If you need application X and it only runs on Windows then you need Windows to run it on.

author: Kleinstein
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2021, 10:52:14 am
content: Quote from: PKTKS on November 11, 2021, 08:57:15 amIn most cases Windwows comes with the hardware. So most users don't directly pay for it. You rarely get the same PC without windows for less.We still use it because some software needs it - for many things there are alternatives, buit not for everything.

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2021, 11:06:19 am
content: ... and don't forget to install also a tool for managing the privacy settings (e.g. O&O ShutUp10++) . As usual, Tuesday's update enabled telemetry without my consent.

author: Berni
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2021, 12:52:22 pm
content: Yep it happened to me before too.I left some unsaved work open at the end of my shift, put my PC into sleep mode, came to work the next morning to find an empty desktop. I went to investigate trough the logs what happened in case it somehow had a bluescreen or something. Nothing to be found, but i did find that it installed updates on that day.So it turns out that updates will install themselves without warning, on purpose choosing a time when you are not at your computer to perform a reboot. If any application shows a "Do you want to save?" prompt the process will not stop, but instead windows will kill the apps that refuse to close and perform the reboot anyway. So this is functionally the same as if you had your PC bluescreen at random times, since you loose all unsaved work in just the same way. I also had times where i would get a major update that would render my PC unusable for nearly 1 hour when i arrived to work.Even tho i have a Pro version of Windows 10 i still could not find a setting to turn off this behavior. I had to google tricks how to set all sorts of complicated policies buried deep in the guts in order to actually stop it. Also since Win 10 seams to randomly and secretly turn things on i decided to completely kill all updating functionality. As an alternative i manually run an update about once a year when i know its safe to do. Then undo any stuff the update messes up, since it always messes up something. I had my color theme randomly changed by an update, my default image viewer overridden, i had Edge browser randomly get installed and set as default...etc Fuck off Microsoft, i just want to use my computer.

author: VK3DRB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2021, 12:56:42 pm
content: Quote from: amyk on November 11, 2021, 02:25:44 amUnless Microsoft secretly re-enables it again.I disabled updates a few years ago on a work machine. Sometime after that, I did a manual Windows update and unbeknown to me, the update overwrote the setting to halt automatic updates. A few weeks later, after I went to a 20 minute meeting, I found an automatic update had rebooted my PC. I lost six hours of work. I could have punched Bill Gates in the head, even if he had nothing to do with it.Lesson learnt: Save your work regularly.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2021, 01:18:45 pm
content: Quote from: Kleinstein on November 11, 2021, 10:52:14 amPerhaps the solution would be to move Windows into a VM like Xen?Quote from: madires on November 11, 2021, 11:06:19 amWhat we need is some way to send fake telemetry as a protest.

author: nigelwright7557
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2021, 01:21:09 pm
content: Microsoft have a habit of messing things up.I spent months writing some software using C++ and Win forms.The next revision of visual studio came out and they had removed it ! FFSI along with many others complained about it until they put it back in.They then came out with WPF and C#. Great language but screen driver is very slow so a backward step from C++.I then go into website design which went fine.Then one day after a upgrade in visual studio I found I could no longer right click on files to publish them to the website, I had to upload the lot which took 10 minutes.I complained about it and they eventually fixed it.Since then they have removed twice ! and each time I had to complain to get it fixed.

author: Berni
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2021, 02:03:17 pm
content: Quote from: VK3DRB on November 11, 2021, 12:56:42 pmYep, this is why i killed updates all together rather than just fix the "don't randomly reboot my machine" problem. That way i have to set things back only after my yearly update adventure.Quote from: nigelwright7557 on November 11, 2021, 01:21:09 pmI also hate how scattered they are with the direction of developing Windows apps. They keep inventing new fancy ways to write them, removing support for old ways, then noticing they really needed the old way and putting it back in. Yet i still think WinForms are the way to write Windows apps, it works perfectly well, so there is no need to replace it with something 'better'.Tho i find that C# was a step in the right direction. Nice blend of modern language features with the syntax of good ol C. The JIT compiler for it is also impressively performant. Sure its still not the lean mean speed of C++ but for most things it is close enough. It also includes a good deal of useful libraries for doing almost everything. The graphics library i find plenty performant enough too, letting you draw quite a lot of stuff to the screen at 60fps. It is my favorite way to create Windows apps now.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2021, 03:10:13 pm
content: Quote from: Berni on November 11, 2021, 12:52:22 pmThis is another thing that I find annoying, that recent computers do not power off when you put them in sleep mode like older computers used to do. There is this thing called "modern sleep", which means the computer remains switched on, but in a low power mode, like phones. Because it is switched on, it can still come to life and do things when you are away. I want it so that off means off. Whoever led this change in hardware design was not making things better for users.

author: AntiProtonBoy
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2021, 04:14:33 pm
content: The best thing I did is install Windows 10 LTSC edition. Cuts out all the bullshit and issues op was talking about.

author: PaulAm
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2021, 04:33:06 pm
content: All I can say to this is that MS made me a lot of money fixing client systems.For personal systems I always used Unix and then Linux systems. One of the big benefits of retirement is that I don't have to deal with that crap anymore.

author: Berni
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2021, 06:34:30 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on November 11, 2021, 03:10:13 pmIt still is the same kind of sleep mode. The PSU switches off while the motherboard uses the 5V standby rail to hold the RAM contents.The thing is that various hardware also runs from the 5V standby rail and has the ability to wake the computer from sleep using an interrupt line (Much like interrupts are used to wake up a MCU from sleep). The OS configures the interrupt sources appropriately before entering sleep mode to determine what can wake it up (and this is configurable if you dig deep enough). The obvious source of a wake up interrupt is the power button, but typically anything being a keyboard or mouse is configured for wakeup, network cards can wake up a PC upon receiving a wake on lan packet, laptops usually send a wake up signal when the battery is almost empty(typically used to transition into hibernation before it dies). It is also possible to set an alarm in the RTC chip, this can wake it up at any predetermined date and time in the future, this is what windows might use to schedule a surprise secret update during the night. This ability was in the hardware for a long time now, it's just that Microsoft only now started using it for evil purposes.My solution is still sticking to Win 7 for the time being. So far i have not seen Win 10 do anything nice that Win 7 can't do. That is apart from the artificial walls that are put in to make your life on Win 7 more difficult, like making drivers refuse to install on it (Yet they work perfectly fine once you have a hack that skips the OS check error message) or some new software that uses APIs that are made to be incompatible with Win7 on purpose. So far i have been able to find a way around these walls, but we will see for how long.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2021, 06:54:49 pm
content: Quote from: Berni on November 11, 2021, 06:34:30 pmTraditional sleep mode is as you say, and older computers did this. However, what I read (and have experienced) is that "Modern Standby" is different. The CPU does not switch off, it remains on in a low power state and is still able to execute code. Therefore, it does not need a hardware event to wake the system; the system keeps running in standby mode and the CPU continues to execute background tasks.With traditional sleep, it was possible to disable all the hardware wake events in the BIOS and the system would remain powered off. With Modern Standby you cannot achieve the same result, as the CPU never powers off completely.Quotehttps://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-hardware/design/device-experiences/modern-standby

author: MadTux
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2021, 06:55:39 pm
content: Good thing I switched over to Linux 20 years ago ;-DUptime of 1/2 year or so, no problem, even with a Thinkpad, no server hardware needed....

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2021, 07:01:39 pm
content: Presumably the data wasn't being sent over the Internet and it was being stored locally on the hard drive. If so, then why not simply unplug it from the Internet? That's what I would do, if I needed to run a Winwoe$ PC, without it randomly rebooting.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2021, 07:03:56 pm
content: You can disable this if you have at least a Pro edition of Win 10, but it looks like Win 10 likes to reset those settings back to automatic after some updates. So after updating, you may need to check those settings again. Just in case. Oh yes, this is lovely.Can't wait to own a car with a Microsoft OS.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2021, 07:08:17 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on November 11, 2021, 07:03:56 pmYou mean, like a Tesla?

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2021, 07:19:51 pm
content: QuoteAn oldy,but still rings true1. For no reason whatsoever, your car would crash twice a day.2. Every time they repainted the lines in the road, you would have to buy a new car.3. Occasionally your car would die on the freeway for no reason. You would have to pull to the side of the road, close all of the windows, shut off the car, restart it, and reopen the windows before you could continue.For some reason you would simply accept this.4. Occasionally, executing a maneuver such as a left turn would cause your car to shut down and refuse to restart, in which case you would have to reinstall the engine.5. Macintosh would make a car that was powered by the sun, was reliable, five times as fast and twice as easy to drive - but would run on only five percent of the roads.6. The oil, water temperature, and alternator warning lights would all be replaced by a single "This Car Has Performed An Illegal Operation" warning light.7. The airbag system would ask "Are you sure?" before deploying.8. Occasionally, for no reason whatsoever, your car would lock you out and refuse to let you in until you simultaneously lifted the door handle, turned the key and grabbed hold of the radio antenna.9. Every time a new car was introduced car buyers would have to learn how to drive all over again because none of the controls would operate in the same manner as the old car.10. You'd have to press the "Start" button to turn the engine off."

author: Berni
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2021, 08:04:46 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on November 11, 2021, 06:54:49 pmAh this. Yeah i don't like the sound of it.So far i have personally not come across a Win 10 machine that actually supports this. Just went and tried the "powercfg /a" command on my Ryzen laptop and Ryzen work desktop and they don't support S0 Idle (And a 4th gen i7 machine is too old for it). All of these also taking the usual second or two delay to actually show something on screen after waking up. Maybe some of the smaller form factor intel laptops/tablets that use it. Yet Win 10 will still do the secret sneaky update during the night even in the regular sleep mode.I guess the next step with this S0 mode is to now also always listen to the microphone during sleep mode.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2021, 10:21:00 pm
content: Quote from: emece67 on November 11, 2021, 07:11:06 amI initially tried that also, and invariably an update would reset the changes, or ignore them, and automatic updates would continue. So I settled on the metered network connection solution which has held so far.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2021, 12:35:46 am
content: Quote from: IanB on November 11, 2021, 07:08:17 pmAhah, not that they don't have their own set of issues, but Tesla uses Linux AFAIK.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2021, 03:14:37 am
content: I'm not a fan of the level of computer integration in Teslas, but as far as I know it won't ever just force you to update at whatever random time it sees fit.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2021, 03:22:53 am
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on November 11, 2021, 07:03:56 pmDidn't Ford try that like 10 years back, to find it a spectacular failure? Fix Or Repair Daily...

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2021, 03:27:54 am
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on November 11, 2021, 07:03:56 pmHmm this makes me wonder. I know vehicles have computers somewhere ... under the seat perhaps. Does anyone know if it has an "OS" or is it a glorified microcontroller? I can't recall ever having to reboot my Subaru.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2021, 03:34:53 am
content: Quote from: xrunner on November 12, 2021, 03:27:54 amOh yes, they boot up these days. If you've ever got in a recent model car with a glass console, you will observe that when you turn on the ignition it takes several seconds before the console boots and displays the home menu.

author: BradC
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2021, 03:35:57 am
content: Quote from: xrunner on November 12, 2021, 03:27:54 amMy 2007 Landrover has 19 CAN BUS accessible ECUs. That doesn't include all the other embedded devices and LIN bus elements. An acknowledged fault rectification strategy is a "hard reset". Basically a turn it off and back on again. Disconnect the battery and short the cables for some magic "Chinese whisper witchcraft old wives tale" period of time.Most of the ECUs are chatty, and if one stops chatting the car will drop into limp mode. That could be caused by something as simple as a blown tail light bulb or worn brake switch contacts. Funny, pretty much everything that causes issues on this vehicle has "FoMoCo" stamped on it.On the other hand, my 1988 Volvo has 3 ECUs (Fuel, ignition & ABS). <shrug>

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2021, 03:36:30 am
content: Quote from: james_s on November 12, 2021, 03:14:37 amDoesn't it do automatic updates overnight?

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2021, 03:52:52 am
content: Quote from: IanB on November 12, 2021, 03:36:30 amNot that I've seen. It lets you know there's an update available and you can choose to install it. There might be a way to have it automatically update overnight but I sure wouldn't set it to do that, it would be a disaster if you had an emergency and needed to drive somebody to the hospital or something late at night.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2021, 03:55:12 am
content: Quote from: BradC on November 12, 2021, 03:35:57 amAnd they are completely independent, aside from an analog engine load signal from the ECU to the ignition box.

author: BradC
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2021, 05:28:35 am
content: Quote from: james_s on November 12, 2021, 03:55:12 amActually, not quite. Ign sends timing info to the FI and a separate urgent "please richen the mix, I can't stop it knocking" signal, and the FI sends a PWM load signal to the FI. Regardless, if either die then it's time to get out and push. Oh, and in fact the ABS ECU sends a vehicle speed signal to the FI also and odd things happen if that goes missing.Easy to fix with hand tools and a worst case a CRO for diagnosis, unlike the Antichrist which needs a separate diagnostic computer just to figure out which of the 9 high speed CAN BUS ECUs is actually causing the cascade fault putting the thing into limp mode.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2021, 05:43:38 am
content: Quote from: BradC on November 12, 2021, 05:28:35 amI forgot about the enrichment signal, in most cases that shouldn't really be active though, especially the non-turbo models, I've tinkered with a lot of older Volvos and I've only ever encountered pinging on the turbos. I had the ABS relay fail once which turned on the warning light in the cluster but I don't recall it causing any problems with drivability for the couple of days before I found the relay and fixed it. That was a 1987 740 which was an odd duck in that it had the optional ABS which was rare that year, but unlike all later models the ABS system was hidden under the trunk bottom in the well behind the right rear wheel, took me a while to figure out where it was. No special tools needed to work on it, but on the flip side the LH 2.2 system had no built in diagnostics at all.The hardest to track down problem I ever had with that car was an occasional misfire under boost only in hot weather. I finally figured out it was bad spark plug wires, it was arcing around the plug boots when they were hot and the higher cylinder pressure under boost resulted in a higher voltage across the spark plugs.This is totally off topic for the thread though.

author: Berni
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2021, 06:20:02 am
content: Things in cars tend to run raw C or a simple RTOS, but we are clearly moving away from that.For example lot of modern cars have a digital dash now and they have a boot time. In my 2016 Volvo they clearly tried to mask the boot process of the dash by playing back a fancy pants animation early in the boot sequence that animates in some of the dial outlines before fading into the proper application at the end once its ready to go. They didn't even try to mask the boot up time of the center console, it just shows a logo during the boot process. At least mine doesn't yet have a ridiculous touchscreen that is a major pain to use while driving.On top of all that all the fancy modern graphical menus in cars are always poorly optimized for performance. On top of that insult to injury is that they use plenty of animated transitions where i can clearly see the whole UI is being drawn at only about 15fps. But okay i can look past a choppy animation, what is worse about this is that such a slow framerate causes a very noticeable delay from your button press to the menu moving on screen. This makes menu navigation feel really slow and clumsy since if i go too fast i will overshoot menu items. You only had to write your software for 1 SIGNLE piece of hardware for gods sake, surely it is not that hard to get it running at 60fps even if that means dropping some of the eye candy. I seen more responsive displays on a microwave oven.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2021, 06:43:09 am
content: I really think that touchscreens in cars should be illegal, they are defective by design and not fit for purpose. My car has physical switches that are laid out logically and the switches and knobs are all different shapes depending on function. I can operate any of them completely by feel without ever taking my eyes off the road at all. That is impossible to do with a touchscreen, there is no tactile feedback at all, you cannot operate it without looking at it. Allowing car makers to use a touchscreen on the dash of a car is criminally negligent.

author: BrianHG
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2021, 06:55:50 am
content: Quote from: james_s on November 12, 2021, 06:43:09 am1 key reason I will never buy a Tesla.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2021, 08:37:10 am
content: Quote from: BrianHG on November 12, 2021, 06:55:50 amIt certainly makes me less likely to, but the performance is just unreal. The higher spec model 3's will do 0-60 in under 3 seconds, that's exotic supercar territory. There isn't much on the road that can beat it other than a crotch rocket sportbike.

author: SparkyFX
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2021, 11:10:48 am
content: +1 for permanent victims of the group policy... just that i can't change mine at work.Quote from: james_s on November 12, 2021, 03:52:52 amThat's the type of reason that separates consumer electronics from road traffic. Just looking at the upsides makes some people forget that they come at a cost.Quote from: xrunner on November 12, 2021, 03:27:54 amMost people can't tell apart the software running on the radio from the rest.It's a network of networks of controllers and processors that use strictly defined communication protocols, which means state machines run distributed over several nodes. This architecture usually works, until it is the supply voltage, a state needs to be consistent/persistent but is not or something very important broke. Then there are more fault tolerant architectures than others.

author: Berni
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2021, 11:50:09 am
content: Quote from: BrianHG on November 12, 2021, 06:55:50 amThe problem is that other car manufacturers also look at Tesla and copy the idea.Dad has a more modern 2020 Volvo and it also went to the big touchscreen and minimal physical buttons. For example the only way to adjust the climate control is using the touchscreen. Same for heated seats. I think among the things that have a physical button is the hazzard lights, window defroster, volume up/down and play pause, along with a home button (that puts you into the main menu similar to a iphone). Yet they dedicate significant surface area down lower on the center console for a silly start button that you actually turn 1/8 turn to start rather than just push and some fancy large scroll wheel for selecting the drive mode between eco/normal/sport (That also takes up the whole center console screen with a menu when you spin it, has a fixed timeout before it hides, and always defaults to normal drive mode on start rather that remembering the setting.A minor detail is also that heated seats default to off when starting the car. While in my one generation older Volvo has a dedicated soft button for heated seats. Not only does it remember what setting you left it on, but also upon a cold start the seats are set to max power for 1 minute to get them up to temperature, then reduces down to the actual setting. So i just set it to the minimum 1/3 power and i leave it there for the whole winter, getting my seat nicely up to temperature when i get in without me having to do anything other than just start the car.This sort of stupid form over function keeps becoming more prevalent these days. Both in cars and modern software more effort is put into making it look sleek and less effort put into making the features actually useful. Win 8, Win 10 and upwards are breaking Microsofts own UI design rules that they established back in Win 3.1 and ware followed all the way to Win 7. All just to make Win 10 look more modern and sleek while confusing older windows users.

author: IDEngineer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2021, 04:06:46 pm
content: Run Win7 everywhere. Problem solved.

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2021, 04:27:49 pm
content: But that implies that you have either paid support (just a short term solution) or don't connect that PC to any network with internet access.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2021, 05:19:01 pm
content: Quote from: madires on November 12, 2021, 04:27:49 pmOh really.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2021, 10:42:37 pm
content: Quote from: madires on November 12, 2021, 04:27:49 pmSupport? I've never used it. I turned Windows update of completely back around 2015 and never looked back. It's connected to the internet and I use it every day, I've ignored all of the "sky is falling" Chicken Littles for years and so far so good. I have an old XP system that I use occasionally for stuff that needs it, also connected to the internet. I'm pretty careful about what I do, my whole network is behind a firewall/NAT and I keep a pretty close eye on traffic. I know a lot of people with fully modern updated systems who have been infected by things despite being up to date, and I firmly believe that it is mostly down to user behavior, you can't patch the user. When the behavior of modern software is virtually indistinguishable from that of malware and viruses I'll take my chances.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2021, 10:49:00 pm
content: Quote from: Berni on November 12, 2021, 11:50:09 amVolvo died years ago and exists now in name only. I'll keep my 1990 740 as long as I possibly can, the 850s are also lovely cars and exemplify what Volvo once was, my mom has a 1996 that is a fantastic car. I would never buy one of the current models, I see nothing of the Volvo heritage in any of them. They started turning into bloated luxury cars in the late 90s and turned completely away from the focus on extremely practical, rugged, long lasting and safe cars that they were legendary for making. For many years most of the outdoorsy types around here all had Volvos, campgrounds and parking lots at the hiking trails were crawling with them. Now that entire market has been handed to Subaru for some years.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2021, 12:09:33 am
content: Quote from: james_s on November 12, 2021, 10:42:37 pmI have applied most updates myself on Win 7, but couldn't care less about them having stopped. If you half know what you're doing, there nothing much to worry about. My network is behind a decent router with firewall, I always check everything I download... Never had a single issue for as long as I can remember.And occasional fuck-ups on Windows (especially 10) updates have given people signficant grief too. Pick your poison.Now for less tech-inclined people, that would be another story of course. If you must consider computers for your kids, for instance, that's a different approach!But if you're in the context of a company, especially one with an IT service, you will have no problem paying for support, and will probably do so anyway if you have a good reason for sticking with an older version of Windows. In this context, the IT manager has responsabilities for the whole company and a bunch of employees using machines in who knows what way. Completely different environment.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2021, 01:45:54 am
content: Quote from: Berni on November 12, 2021, 11:50:09 amCar manufacturers copied the stupid monostable shifter which looks like a shifter that indicates state, but does not and operates completely differently, leading to accidents, deaths, and lawsuits.

author: MrMobodies
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2021, 03:05:32 am
content: I had to go through a lot of aggravation to deal with this problem.Now I got it the way I want. I can turn on and off USCORE service so it don't automatically start. I have taken care of Task scheduler because USOCORE recreates the keys and denies the administrator and all other accounts access. So note down what is in it c:\windows\system32\tasks\microsoft\UpdateOrchester (with the service off), set inherit and set permission to do so and then delete the entries and set the SYSTEM account write permission to deny. do the same in registry, you'd need to find the task noted down, delete the values but keep the keeps and this time deny not "system" but TrustedInstaller access to them. Also another service that turns the update on as well Waasmedic.I use to loose my temper when I discovered this behaviour upon I finding an Acer down the skip in 2019 preloaded with Windows 10 Pro.Now I just use Windows 10 Enterprise LTSC 2019 from a disk image with everything set in the way I want so I can copy it and I always trying to improve it from time to time when I discover something that I don't like.I think MSpaint is something I am trying to sort out now. I am looking to either replace it with a previous version that won't do that or remove it find something else as it has this message that soon it will disappear one day but will be available in the "app store".No no no no no! I do not want "install a stupid app on your pc!" just to use something so basic and bundled for around three decades?

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2021, 03:57:10 am
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on November 13, 2021, 12:09:33 amFor non-technical people no amount of patching really solves that problem, I finally set up my mom with a locked down limited user account because I got tired of formatting the hard drive and reinstalling every time she somehow managed to break the system. Other people are so much worse, back before my friend's business had one of those contract IT services I was their IT guy and I was constantly cleaning up systems that were infected with piles of different stuff. This was back when Windows 7 was fully supported and I kept everything completely up to date but that didn't stop people from being idiots and installing stuff. I have yet to ever see an unpatched flaw exploited on a desktop, it's ALWAYS the user, and the more you lock down the machines, the higher your workload installing and configuring stuff for employees. Public facing servers are of course a completely different ball of wax, keeping those update is imperative. I *have* seen servers get compromised by outside attackers before.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2021, 03:59:38 am
content: Quote from: David Hess on November 13, 2021, 01:45:54 amIf cars all had proper manual gearboxes that would solve almost all of those problems. It is impossible to have unintended acceleration from a stop by confusing the gas and brake or forgetting the car is in gear. You can't put it in gear without depressing the clutch, if you let out the clutch without giving it gas the engine will stall. If you mash any two pedals to the floor the car will stop moving one way or another.

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2021, 04:25:03 am
content: Quote from: james_s on November 13, 2021, 03:57:10 amIt's been a while since I've set this up but there's a way to make Windows treat the drive as "read only" and all changes made only persist until the next full reboot.

author: VK3DRB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2021, 06:25:55 am
content: Quote from: IanB on November 12, 2021, 03:34:53 amOne major flaw with Windows is there is nothing to tell you then the operating system has actually completed its boot-up. Linux has never had that problem.If a car booted Windows after the ignition is started, the "Where Do You Want To Go To Today" would pop up on a screen and then you would have to sit there and do nothing for a further minute or two, else the indicators might miss a few flashes, the accelerator will have a delay, the steering could over steer, and brakes would be sluggish.I once worked with a high-end LeCroy oscilloscope that did that ran under Windows XP. Horrible boot-up time, but at least you could play solitaire at lunchtime.

author: BradC
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2021, 08:47:37 am
content: Quote from: VK3DRB on November 13, 2021, 06:25:55 amIt does now. Every recent distribution I've played with that is systemd based boots to a command prompt like greased lightning. Then you have to sit and wait as pretty much every service in the background is still in the process of booting up. It *looks* like it boots fast as long as you don't actually want to use it. *Exactly* like Windows.

author: PKTKS
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2021, 09:11:27 am
content: Quote from: BradC on November 13, 2021, 08:47:37 amNever was a surprise...SYSTEMD thinghy is conceived to implement windooze mimimcs in nixThe POTTERIX system is meant as a compatible layer thrown in the wildRemove user from bootAllow a fast vm with wayland piped GUIPUF MAGIC CORPORATE KIOSKS...just like same old 30y of shitPaul

author: blacksheeplogic
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2021, 09:18:37 am
content: Quote from: PKTKS on November 13, 2021, 09:11:27 amSure we can bang on about Windows and Systemd, but let's not forget about Arch.

author: cortex_m0
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2021, 09:52:42 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on November 12, 2021, 10:49:00 pmThat coincides nicely with Volvo being acquired by Ford Motor Co. in 1998.I absolutely agree with the touchscreen thing. I haven't been able to re-set my car's clock for Standard Time because the touch screen has developed some dead spots at 6 years old. The good news is I only need to use the touch screen for a few functions, like changing the time zone and resetting the service needed light. Haven't yet tried to check what it would take to repair/replace the touch screen.

author: IDEngineer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2021, 10:09:43 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on November 12, 2021, 10:42:37 pmUpvoted as "Computing Quote of the Year"!Besides all the other valid comments on this topic herein: I look at how I intend to use the tool, and weigh that against the advantages/disadvantages of whatever "upgrade" is being proposed. In my case, the tools I use run fine on Win7. I also know how to fine tune Win7 to do what I want - and not to do a lot of what I don't want (example: At rest, Task Manager reports a grand total of 41 processes on my workstations). I could give all that up for Win10/11 and gain... what? More intrusiveness, less control? How does that move my marker forward?Oh yeah, Win10/11 "gives" you random resets and dead time too, often at the least convenient times. Literally as I've been typing this my wife, across the lab at her desk, just let out some choice words because her Win10 laptop just decided to "upgrade" again. Right when she needs to send some things to people.Maybe Microsoft needs to ship two versions of their operating systems: The "For Dummies" version and the "Take your Chances" version. I'd gladly pay - extra - for the latter if it meant they'd leave MY optimizations alone and not open a bunch of outbound TCP sockets to somewhere.I just want a tool. One that does what I need, in the manner I configure it, with no extra hands "helping me" changing settings and updating files. The fact that all of my systems run Win7 SP1 and I have yet to find anything that even slightly tempts me to move to anything later is a huge, HUGE clue that creeping featurism isn't always an advantage. Quite the contrary.

author: Berni
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 14, 2021, 11:33:38 am
content: Quote from: cortex_m0 on November 13, 2021, 09:52:42 pmYeah Volvo is not what it used to be and Ford definitely left its mark on it. Now that they are owned by the Chinese they seam to have gotten a bit better in terms of luxury cars, but the high tech user experience is also moving towards the user experience of a cheep noname brand Chinese oscilloscope.Quote from: IDEngineer on November 13, 2021, 10:09:43 pmThis is the exact problem i have with Win 10. It doesn't actually provide me with any new functionality i would find useful. I like sticking with something until i have a reason to upgrade. I kept using Win 2000 for quite a few years into the Win XP era since it could do pretty much everything that Win 2000 did while Win2k ran great even on old outdated hardware. Skipped Vista for obvious reasons, but then when Win7 came out i was so impressed with the step forward it made from Win XP that i actually installed the free Win7 RC1 release candidate on my main machine and was actually positively surprised. Most of the hardware worked out of the box, some quick tweaks got the rest working, it ran fast it looked nice, the new menus actually made sense, there ware tons of quality of life improvements like the new taskbar, snapping windows etc... And yet i was not even using the final version and there ware no bugs to be seen. It quickly became my new favorite OS, years down the line it has also proved to be reliable, continuing to run without issues even after years of crap have accumulated on it. Pretty much never needed to reinstall it because something broke badly like it happened here or there in WinXP with daily driver machines.Then we have Win 8 that way basically Windows redesigned for a touchscreen tablet OS but still running on a desktop computer for 99% of the user base, screw that. Then Win 10 comes along and fixes some of that but keeps swanky useless setting menus that don't actually let you set much, sends your data back to be sold by Microsoft, constantly has updates that introduce bugs every so often, introduces a app store just so Microsoft could milk app developers for a cut of the cake, the whole thing feels so polished it feels like an Alpha release version of a OS. On top of that it has the ugly graphical refinement of Win 3.1 while at the same time being more resource intensive than Win7, how the heck?! All of this while coming with 0 features that make it more useful than Win7, apart from not being affected by forced obsolescence because drivers and modern games are made to only support Win10

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2021, 03:09:03 am
content: Quote from: VK3DRB on November 13, 2021, 06:25:55 amWindows actually lies about it. Some modules are delayed until after the desktop is started to make it seem like the boot time is faster than it really is. Microsoft implemented this behavior to improve benchmarks.

author: nigelwright7557
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2021, 05:14:42 am
content: Quote from: Berni on November 11, 2021, 12:52:22 pmIn 2006 I had to reinstall Windows.So put in Windows CD and let it do its stuff.As it was a clean install it formatted the hard drive which was fine as I had put my stuff on a backup hard drive too.I found out to my horror it had formatted the back up drive too.I managed to find some items on old DVD's I kept but still lost a lot of work.Since then I unplug the back up drive when installing Windows.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2021, 05:25:24 am
content: There are un-format utilities that can often recover nearly everything assuming the drive has not been deliberately wiped. Most of the time when Windows formats a drive it just marks the space as available.

author: Berni
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2021, 06:18:34 am
content: Quote from: nigelwright7557 on November 15, 2021, 05:14:42 amI had that happen when doing an installation and at the spot where you choose the drive i assumed the first drive on the list of drives is the C drive. It had a similar size so it didn't tip me off at something being wrong, then once it completes i end up at a boot selection screen with two windows installs to chose from. At that moment i just paused a bit before my heart sank as i realized what i have just done. Admittedly this is my fault for not double checking i have the right drive, but for some reason every time i installed windows in the past the C drive was at the top so i just started assuming that is always the current system drive. I did try some utilities to try and get the data back but don't think i got anything useful. Problem likely being that the format wipes away most of the file tables (regular un-delete is easier because the file is simply marked as junk in the tables).Never heard of the windows installer messing with any other drives in the process.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2021, 06:50:48 am
content: In reality he probably did exactly the same thing you did. Ran the installer, it detected an existing installation and defaulted to the backup drive.

author: Kleinstein
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2021, 08:16:25 am
content: Quote from: David Hess on November 15, 2021, 03:09:03 amIt is not just on boot up. Also the busy mouse pointer comes up rarely, even if the system is busy and not reponsive. More like coming up only if there are more processes waiting.I think Win 8 nearly gave up on the busy signal - one sometimes can type half a sentence before the things come up on the screen.The download of an update in the background seems to slow down the system quite a bit - up to the point of making the computer hard to use for some tasks, like editing, where one needs the resonse. In these times I still want my Amiga 500 back - it was more responsive even with the OS from floppy disc.

author: Messtechniker
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 17, 2021, 06:10:12 am
content: Quote from: nigelwright7557 on November 15, 2021, 05:14:42 amHave always been doing this and disconnecting all other drives including chip drivesright from the start with Windows 2000, so that there is only one single drive to install to.To avoid the described messup and prevent Windows from installingitself on drive H, for example, which some progs cannot handle.

author: Berni
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 17, 2021, 06:33:23 am
content: Quote from: Messtechniker on November 17, 2021, 06:10:12 amThe drive letters are not actually bound to the drives in the partition tables. So the drive you install it on will likely become the C drive inside that instance of windows, while the old C drive becomes something else. But yeah its more a mater of not nuking all your data, its only in Win7 and newer that if windows is installed on an existing drive the contents of that drive get moved into a "windows.old" folder, however only if you have enough drive space to do so. I do not trust it and move my data off that drive beforehand manually.This is also why the installer can confuse drives as it only sees it as drive 1 drive 2 drive 3 rather than C D E

author: VK3DRB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2021, 10:34:55 am
content: Today, Microsoft turned all my Outlook setting to a dark grey background when I booted up this morning. I did NOT change that setting before I shut down last night and did not do an update. Microsoft thinks they know what I need. I found out how to change it back. Then I loaded Excel and a message came up like, "We changed some settings for you to make you focus on your work better." What a load of frogshit. I never had problems focussing on my Excel spreadsheets.We don't think I live in a communist country run by Big Brother with some screwed up ideology, but 1984 is here today. Microsoft seems to know what is good for me because they know better about what I need than I do. Oh, silly me... I repent! I admit I am defective and should turn away from my sin of not following 1 Microsoft Way.In conclusion, Microsoft can F*** OFF.

author: Berni
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2021, 11:51:58 am
content: I recently manually ran a backlog of updates on Win 10.The result of it was:- A weather app showed up on my taskbar. I tried the usual way of removing taskbar elements that worked in Win 7, Vista, XP, Win2000, Win98... could not do it. Then when a coworker walked by i randomly asked him how to do it and he shown me the magic hide button under "News" (And he admired it also has takem him a while to find)- The start menu background is suddenly light blue while before it was dark blue- Spam notification shown up about setting Edge the default browser- A what's new tutorial shown up to explain to me 4 exiting new features, guess what feature 3 was.... Alt+Tab shortcut to swap windows- Possibly more randomly switched settings that i have not noticed so farOh and that network shared printer problem that was the reason for me installing updates? Nope still gives same non descriptive error of 0x0000007c when i try to add it.I never had a single problem with sharing a damn printer on Win7

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2021, 01:04:05 pm
content: Quote from: AlfBaz on November 11, 2021, 02:15:03 amOur IT department would reset all the PCs during the night to force the updates. We lost a lot of work because of that department.After Windows had forced an update on my PC, I basically blocked all MS addresses at the router. A few years ago, I was looking at Vivaldi browser and bypassed the router long enough for MS to get their hooks into it. After their last update, I discovered a few more addresses had been added. It's been locked ever since. Obviously not having access to any of MS sites has a down side but for me, it's been worth it.https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/windows-10-creators-update-1703/msg1319523/#msg1319523

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2021, 02:23:52 pm
content: Quote from: Berni on November 18, 2021, 11:51:58 amThe printer issues are going on for several months now.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2021, 04:06:13 pm
content: QuoteYou'd hope so. For a long time my Windows drive was M: - I think it was an upgrade install, so used whatever drive was free on the original system and then remembered it even after the first was toast. For that reason, I never had C: drive on that system.

author: IDEngineer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2021, 05:10:43 pm
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on November 18, 2021, 01:04:05 pmI'd have thought "something would have happened" to anyone who did that more than once. A little stockroom justice where reality gets 'splained to people whose "for your own good" keeps costing you actual work. And I'd think the guy signing everyone's paychecks would have been the leader of that little task force.

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 28, 2021, 06:50:29 am
content: Quote from: PKTKS on November 13, 2021, 09:11:27 amSometimes I think I'm the ugly girl at the dance. I don't use distros that have SYSTEMD. And so I just sit there and sulk because I think I'm missing out on all the fun.