German V1 and V2 control systems and electronics discussion - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: schmitt trigger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 12, 2018, 02:28:09 pm
content: I've always been fascinated by the technology developed during WW2, too numerous to list here.But a pair of those specifically interest me: the Vergeltungswaffen 1 and 2 flying bombs.This is not a political nor historical forum, so I won't entertain discussions about the effectivity as weapons, or whether an earlier development would have helped Germany win the Blitz. Or about the morality of its deployment. Or the effect on British morale. Those are speculations, and other forums are ablaze with related discussions. You are welcome to join the fray.Rather, since this is a technical forum, let's focus on the technical aspects of these fascinating weapons.Now, there is plenty of information on the web, books and museums about those aspects, but they tend to focus on the propulsion systems.Don't get me wrong...the propulsion systems were revolutionary, and in the case of the V2, it helped launch the space age.But too little is discussed about their control and electronics systems. In a sense, those systems allowed them to become the world's first mass-producedautonomous robotic weapons.So those systems were also revolutionary. True, they were primitive and very inaccurate, but it helped that London back then was already a huge urban sprawl and not very far inland.Unfortunately, I've been able to find precious little information,and I'm not sure that it is all correct.I know that both weapons used fuel cutoff to determine where they would fall. The V1 used a clock, and the V2 used an inertial system for the purpose.But how about guidance? I know that the weapons had to be aimed in the general direction of London, but were there any mid-flight corrections?I would assume that the V2 would use ballistic trajectories to complete its final leg, but how about the V1? How did they kept a level flight, how did they do course correction due to winds?Also...were the controls electronic, mechanic, hydraulic?And I've read that the V1 was the first to use mag-amps as their control devices. Is this correct?

author: Zucca
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 12, 2018, 02:38:10 pm
content: In Munich@Deutsche Museum you can still admire a V2 rocket... it´s so cool!http://www.deutsches-museum.de/en/flugwerft/exhibitions/rockets/

author: schmitt trigger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 12, 2018, 02:49:42 pm
content: Yes, I've been to the Deutsches Museum in Munich.And to the White Sands Missile museum in New Mexico. And other mockups throughout the US, like the War Museum at Ft. Bliss.And I believe the Imperial War Museum in London also has some bits....but I visited in 1979 and I can't fully recall.

author: capt bullshot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 12, 2018, 02:50:32 pm
content: Been there (Peenemünde) back in the holidays, there's an exhibition at "Historisch-Technisches Museum Peenemünde", showing some innards of the V1 / V2, but little explanation. From what I could see there, the rocket(s) did have an inertia based system (using gyros) controlling electrically actuated fins. So the rockets would able to follow a heading. Afair, they used batteries for the electrical power supply.Another interesting thing was the fuel pump: some kind of steam turbine system powered by a chemical steam generator.

author: babysitter
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 12, 2018, 02:56:57 pm
content: You might like this:http://fafner.dyndns.org/~vaxman/publications/hamburg_hoelzer.pdf

author: capt bullshot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 12, 2018, 03:00:27 pm
content: Found some photos:http://wunderkis.de/peenemuende/The german explanation on one of these says:4.7.32Control Unit for steering of Fi 103 (V 1)Pfeiffer Apparatebau GmbH, Wetzlar, est. 1944 (name of the Company manufacturing the unit)Courtesy Helmut Niethammer, Stuttgart (the owner of the unit)The "winged bomb" control unit consists of:1. Bootstrap Gyro2. damping gyro for heading3. damping gyro for elevation4. elevation controller

author: RoGeorge
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 12, 2018, 03:09:37 pm
content: V2 guidance system was based on diode ring mixers.

author: robotsfromthesky
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: January 24, 2018, 05:12:33 pm
content: Hello -I have been studying the V1 for years and I am gathering information into a website calledwww.robotsfromthesky.comI have documents, photos, technical information, relics, etc. and I am trying to organize it all into one location. On the main page there is a tab for Resources/Research the first link on that page leads to a great resource about the V1 and helps to answer a lot of questions. Feel free to ask any specific questions and I will help in any way that I can. I have been involved in giving technical assistance for two V1 restorations and I have access to a library of research material. Thanks, RFTS

author: schmitt trigger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 24, 2018, 08:41:00 pm
content: Great website.I hope that it continues to expands its archives and photos.Speaking of photos, there is an iconic one of a V1 falling in the whereabouts of Fleet street in London.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 24, 2018, 09:35:01 pm
content: Quote from: RoGeorge on January 12, 2018, 03:09:37 pmThis paper describes how the guidance system was designed using analog computers - very good and advanced work for the time. Diode ring mixers used in the analog computers. Analog computers remained the key method for simulations of missile guidance through the 1980s when digital simulation started taking over.As far as I know the V1 and V2 did not have guidance systems in the modern sense of the word. No measurement of error in trajectory relative to the target used to correct trajectory. They did have flight stabilization systems, and as outlined in the German paper the flight stabilization system of the V2 was quite sophisticated - again far ahead of the rest of the world. Deviations from the planned ballistic trajectory (as measured by an on board gyro platform) were corrected.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 24, 2018, 10:36:39 pm
content: There's both a V1 and a V2 in Paul Allen's collection, they're on public display at the combat & armor museum in Everett WA.As I recall the V1 used a relatively simple system of gyros to maintain attitude and heading. I don't recall how the control surfaces were actuated but it was not very complicated by modern standards.

author: janekm
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 24, 2018, 11:49:51 pm
content: Quote from: RoGeorge on January 12, 2018, 03:09:37 pmThis article is quite amazing... as a little side project the speaker developed an analog computer with functions such as root, integration, differentiation, double integration(!) (and of course had to hide it from superiors who only wanted him to work on his “real work”).Based on feedback with signals modulated with 500Hz carrier to overcome linearity and offset issues (reminiscent of chopper amplifiers, which later led to the second generation of analog computers).

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 25, 2018, 12:48:52 am
content: Deutsches Technikmuseum Berlin has quite some detail on display:https://www.tripadvisor.com/LocationPhotoDirectLink-g187323-d559453-i293205368-German_Museum_of_Technology_Berlin_Deutsches_Technikmuseum_Berlin-Berlin.html

author: Alex Eisenhut
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 25, 2018, 02:07:36 am
content: Find thishttps://archive.org/services/img/1946-04IntelligenceBulletinI have a printed copy somewhere. It's amazing to read how these things were analyzed at the time.