Engineers told to prove qualifications in Victoria and Queensland - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 07, 2018, 10:12:53 am
content: http://www.afr.com/business/construction/engineers-told-to-prove-qualifications-in-victoria-and-queensland-20180306-h0x2n2QuoteTranslation: Engineers Australia wants to be important and control it all by government decree. Good luck getting EE's on board, who mostly want nothing to do with EA.

author: tpowell1830
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2018, 10:56:29 am
content: I love it when I see an article regarding regulations for the USA, especially from other countries. The fact is that most people don't seem to realize about the USA is that the country is made up of 50 states and the states are regulatory for most such things. I can tell you that engineers are not required to have a PE in my state, however, the lead or chief engineer of a construction project is required to have the PE.But, to rant on about regulations, sometimes (often) regulations vary from district to district.Apologize for the rant...

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2018, 12:16:39 pm
content: Qualification check is quite usual in the EU. All the jobs I applied for requested a scan of my Uni. degree.Probably there is a big database, where all the degrees are entered. If you have to register, and pay a subscription or something (reasonable amount), I wouldn't have a problem with that. Imagine, that there would be a common platform, where you could inform all relevant engineers if there is a change in some regulation. Push notification, instead of pulling.

author: jeremy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2018, 01:03:30 pm
content: Quote from: NANDBlog on March 07, 2018, 12:16:39 pmI don’t think that is a “qualification check” in this context unfortunately. The universities do have a system here that allows an employer to check for the validity of a degree.In Queensland (where I am), it is called RPEQ. I’ve not done it myself, but it involves paying money regularly (incl after you have it), writing a journal to examined, “continuous professional development” courses (150hrs every 3 years) and something like a 3-5 years of working before you can apply. It doesn’t have anything to do with the University, just a non-profit group called Engineers Australia who manages stuff as per the law.I agree with Dave though, I’ve literally never heard anyone bring it up outside of construction/mining/infrastructure firms, and predominantly for civil engineers. Even then, ive been told that they just have a handful of guys with it at the top who just get paid more to sign off on everything. It’s really just a tick the box thing.If I was to put my cynical sunglasses on, I would say that it is accepted by the big mining companies and the like because it raises the barrier of entry for smaller competitors. I’m sure if they didn’t want it, it would already be gone.As far as I’m concerned, EEs should ignore all of this and instead give their money to IEEE as thanks for producing standards. IEEE Xplore is pretty good too.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 07, 2018, 01:22:45 pm
content: Quote from: jeremy on March 07, 2018, 01:03:30 pmYes. I'm a member of the IEEE, but not the IEA. Was only ever a student member of the IEA way back.I know many EE's who were in the IEA but gave it up as it didn't provide any value at all. The only EE's who seem to still be in it are the management consulting types who like to collect fancy letters after their name.No one in the practical EE industry in oz actually gives a rats about he IEA or their membership, except for perhaps people in the power distribution industry or fields like that maybe. Even strict industries like medical advise some jobs as "eligible for membership of the IEA", they don't actually expect you to be a member, or that you become a member, just "eligible", like it's just sort of HR bar to pass.Of the thousands of resumes I've looked at over the years, it was maybe only a handful that said they were a member.Maybe I should set up a rival professional membership society, the EEV Institute. Bring a project to the interview and a bunch of grey beards rub their beards and say "You're in".

author: amspire
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2018, 01:55:39 pm
content: I did my degree back in the mid 1970's. Do I have to dig up proof that I passed a programming course for a Motorola 6800, and that I can write a simple program in Fortran on computer cards? Or that I can use a slide rule and log tables?That will really improve the Engineering standards in Australia. The current state of 6800 programming in Australia is rubbish.In fact, we better wipe out everything done by James Clerk Maxwell - he wasn't an engineer.Dave, we definitely need the EEV Institute!

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2018, 02:01:23 pm
content: In California, the process for becoming a Professional Engineer is rather formal and involves testing. A diploma and CV won't get it done.First, there is the Engineer-In-Training exam that covers engineering fundamentals. This can be taken in the 3rd year of undergrad and, in my view, is tailored for Civil Engineer students. It certainly is difficult for the Electronic Engineering students. We just don't cover enough material that the Board of Examiners considers mandatory. Not to worry, there are review classes at many state universities.It is fun to watch the candidates bring in books - on a hand truck, dozens of books - in an attempt to get through the exam. Hint: If you need more than one or two books, you aren't going to pass. When I took it, there were people making their 5th and 6th attempts. You will see them in the review courses as well. I promised myself that if I failed the exam, I would never take it again! It's gruesome for electronics types. I did pass - back in '76Anyway, upon graduation and passing the EIT exam, you work in the field at the direction of another PE for 4 years. After that, given a letter of recommendation, you can take the Professional Engineer test. This will be much more focused than the EIT exam. But still, electrical tends to focus on utilities, generation and distribution. There used to be one Fortran question but I don't think the exam covers Maxwell's Equations. In any event, upon passing the exam, you can join the society and become a Registered Professional Engineer (PE).I don't know of very many Electronics Engineers that go this route because it is technically only required for engineering involving public safety. Civil, Structural, Electrical, Mechanical and perhaps a couple of other professions.Each state will have its own procedures and there probably isn't a lot of reciprocity. I suspect an engineer needs to take the exam in each state where they perform work but I don't know that.

author: BillB
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 07, 2018, 02:32:26 pm
content: Agree with the above. My school required that we at least take the EIT exam in order to graduate (I don't actually even remember if we needed to pass or not). Given that us non-Power EE types didn't need PE licensing, I put little effort into it. Frankly, I vaguely remember being hungover at the exam, I brought a book or two, didn't prep for squat. A few months later I was shocked to receive my EIT certificate in the mail! I passed, just barely.I would think that an EEV Institute certification would require a teardown. You can only show up with 1 flat blade screwdriver.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2018, 02:44:28 pm
content: Quote from: BillB on March 07, 2018, 02:32:26 pmI took 2 weeks vacation and crammed out of a study book. I also took a review class at Cal State LA (I think...). And, like you, I barely passed. But passing is a binary kind of thing, you do or you don't.

author: BillB
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 07, 2018, 02:51:21 pm
content: Quote from: rstofer on March 07, 2018, 02:44:28 pmI still have that stupid certificate hanging on my wall decades later... perhaps as a testament to the power of apathy and booze.

author: LaserSteve
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2018, 04:18:46 pm
content: One of my former employers designated me as an Engineer... My degree is in Education, but I have about twenty years of working with electronics and 12 years of technical service at a university. So I looked up Ohio's rules, as from time to time I was working on half million Dollar or more systems....Just get Queensland to adopt the following language and note that your employer can designate you as an engineer in title only. Your not a PE, but you then can use the "E" word within reason, you are not chartered and you do not have a PE stamp, so your drawings are not to be used anyways... See section "A" , where your employer may designate you the title of "Engineer". which may pose a little problem if your self employed... Then the corporation accepts responsibility for your work.PEs in this state do Civil and Surveying work... I was sevicing lasers. I still developed a habit of saying, "I am not a PE in the state of Ohio" when it comes to structural matters, which I did deal with when obtaining power and cooling... Thank God my title is Senior Technician now, it gets rid of a lot of the potential liability as I am supervised by a PhD PE. That does not mean I get to do a lower quality of work.In my area, I'm constantly coming across work by shoddy "electricians" that I have to fix or have fixed for grounding and phasing issues, so I do support having a few tests and certifications required in the construction industry.For the title here, You have to have a four year degree here by a ABET accredited college, pass the "Engineer in Training Exam", work X number of years under a PE, then set the final exam.. There is / was a bypass for Engineering Professors appointed to a College on the work requirement. --------------------------------------------------------------------Ohio Revised Code 4733.02 | 4733.03 >Restricting use of title engineer by itself or with other terms.(A) Except for an individual who, as part of the internal classification system of the individual’s employer, uses the title “engineer” by itself or in conjunction with another term described in division (B) of this section and who does not represent the individual’s self to the public or otherwise advertise the individual’s self as an engineer, no individual shall, in connection with the individual’s name, assume, use, or advertise:(1) The title “engineer” by itself unless the individual is an engineer;(2) The title “engineer” in conjunction with another term that modifies the title “engineer” in a manner that conveys the impression that the individual is a graduate of an accredited engineering curriculum unless the individual is a graduate of an accredited engineering curriculum.(B) Terms used in conjunction with the title “engineer” under division (A)(2) of this section that imply a person is a graduate of an accredited engineering curriculum include the following: “aerospace,” “agricultural,” “civil,” “chemical,” “computer,” “electrical,” “industrial,” “mechanics,” “mechanical,” “metallurgical,” “mining,” “naval architectural and marine,” “nuclear,” and any other term commonly used by an institution of higher learning to apply to graduates of an accredited engineering curriculum.(C) Nothing in this section shall be interpreted as prohibiting the use, assumption, or advertisement of the title “steam engineer” or “stationary engineer,” by or on behalf of a person licensed under Chapter 4739. of the Revised Code, or the term “railroad engineer” or “locomotive engineer,” by or on behalf of a person authorized to operate a railroad locomotive, or the term “operating engineer,” by or on behalf of a person who operates, maintains, repairs, or manufactures light or heavy construction equipment.HISTORY: 144 v H 482 (Effective 07-01-1993); 149 v H 337. Effective Date 08-06-2002.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2018, 05:22:16 pm
content: Quote from: jeremy on March 07, 2018, 01:03:30 pmThat's indeed worse. Although, you can make bad systems better by simple slight changes.For example, if: You are entitled by law to get salary during the courses. Your employer has to pay for it, and it is tax deductible. It gives you a nice change of pace for the daily rat-race, and networking with other engineers.Wow, I'm dreaming. Someone wake me up.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2018, 05:45:35 pm
content: Quote from: NANDBlog on March 07, 2018, 12:16:39 pmMaybe in Belgium but not in the NL. For some job applications I had to take tests to see if I actually knew what I claimed to know. I never ever had to show any degree.

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2018, 08:33:30 pm
content: Professional Engineer License, this is public information (member registry).Most employers require copies of university transcripts for proof of degree. My university mails them out as requested.Other employers are OK with a scan/pic of my degree parchment. That could easily be faked in Photoshop.Fake engineers are a problem with many immigrants claiming such creds from some school nobody has heard of or speaks their language, to confirm.This was a problem in the early 1900's, rail bridges, buildings collapsing.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2018, 08:35:24 pm
content: In the US, we have a problem giving 'tests'. First, we have to prove we give the same exam to all candidates and, second, we have to prove that the language doesn't itself discriminate against any group. Think those for whom English is a foreign language. The exam questions also have to be relevant to the job and, eventually, you may have to defend them in court.One of the drivers for renting employees from an agency is the fact that you get to see how a worker performs without actually hiring them. You can keep them for up to a year and discharge them with no blow-back. If you keep them more than a year, the get employee rights. IBM lost this case... The good news: If it doesn't work out, you just tell the agency the contract is over.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 07, 2018, 09:47:52 pm
content: Quote from: rstofer on March 07, 2018, 02:01:23 pmIn Australia you just have to show your certificate and provide a copy of your CV showing 3 years work experience and bingo, MIEAust letters for you.To get to Chartered status is more involved:https://www.engineersaustralia.org.au/Chartered/Evidence-MatrixBut I've know some pretty practically clueless engineers to get that, ones that aren't really capable of doing real practical engineering work.Ooh, looks like they have a new wanky title, Engineering Executivehttps://www.engineersaustralia.org.au/For-Individuals/Professional-Engineer/Engineering-ExecutiveAnd look, you can take the test it seems:https://www.engineersaustralia.org.au/portal/chartered/areas-of-practiceWhen you select EE you get the description:QuoteThere is no option for electronics engineering.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2018, 09:55:27 pm
content: I'm not sure what I think of this. Certainly there is no shortage of botched projects done by professional engineers, I've got a whole book on them. Some amount of certification is necessary but too many layers of bureaucracy can just add a lot of hassle with few real gains.

author: DerekG
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2018, 10:21:21 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on March 07, 2018, 01:22:45 pmAnd for many of us who travelled & worked overseas for many years, we are probably no longer members of any professional organisation.What is important is to keep a copy of your degree (& Professional Academic Transcript). These indicate your full name & the date you completed your qualification.When you apply for a job, you will supply your date of birth.In Australia, the prospective employer should then call the university (locating the phone number independently of course) & ask for the records department.By supplying the above information, the university records department will verify the applicant's academic record at that institution.The employer can protect themselves by paying a small fee to the university for an official limited stamped copy of the Professional Academic Transcript (PET).All pretty simple really.PS: Oh ........... in Australia the prospective employer should also ensure the person is allowed to work in the country. This bit is often harder than the qualification bit above. Employing a person who does not have a natural right (or a visa) to work can end up with substantial fines and/or jail time.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 07, 2018, 10:59:25 pm
content: Quote from: DerekG on March 07, 2018, 10:21:21 pmHardly anyone does that in the electronics industry here.In fact I can't recall the last time I heard that happen. Not at any company I've ever worked at or interviewed for.

author: DerekG
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 08, 2018, 01:36:35 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on March 07, 2018, 10:59:25 pmQuite right. In the past this has often been glossed over, however with technology making it much easier for counterfeits & the increasing burden of legal liability on employers, it is becoming more common.The employer generally only does it when he gets down to a shortlist of 1 or 2 applicants.

author: jeremy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 08, 2018, 02:53:06 am
content: If the authenticity of a degree is of concern, the universities here do have quite a sophisticated checking system in place now (hologram stickers, embossing, etc). But it’s easier to just contact the uni and ask ?Quote from: EEVblog on March 07, 2018, 10:59:25 pmTo be fair, there isn’t that much of an electronics industry here compared to the size of the digging big holes in the ground industry. I’m sure if there were some electronics mega corporations here like TI, intel, NXP, etc things would be different.

author: DeanA
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 08, 2018, 04:55:47 am
content: I know that some tenders here for Queensland department of Transport and Main Roads have asked for RPEQ certification on some parts of the electronics design and stand alone solar power system. So it is being used to some extent..

author: jeremy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 08, 2018, 05:09:20 am
content: Quote from: DeanA on March 08, 2018, 04:55:47 amYes, for govt stuff definitely; I think it's written into legislation somewhere that it is required. But for private enterprise it seems to be non-existent.

author: VK3DRB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 08, 2018, 11:49:05 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on March 07, 2018, 10:59:25 pmTrue. I have not checked on people at their unis, but these days I can usually sniff if they are frauds during an interview. I don't pay too much attention to certificates either - you can buy fake degrees online.I learnt a harsh lesson 25 years ago years ago when I and some others interviewed a bloke for an engineering role. He said he had a degree from RMIT. He got the job but he soon proved to be a tosser. He knew nothing about electronics and he did not know we had 240V mains (he thought we had 120V in Australia). There is a lot more to the story (OH & S, and company theft) and he was walked to the door (literally) by management soon after getting the job. He definitely had no degree. He seriously he had some issues.So I test people if I am involved with interviews. I have a standard technical test, most of which is specific to the approach to problem solving, electronic design, and aspects like DFMEA, DFM and DFT. One question I ask is, "Please tell me about control theory." If they have no idea what control theory is, it is likely they do not have an engineering degree.As for IEAust and IEEE, I am qualified to join these, but I don't bother - no real benefit really - the money is better in my pocket. Yeah Spectrum is a cool magazine - I just get it at work anyway.

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 08, 2018, 07:22:44 pm
content: I give a basic 10 question aptitude test to potential new hires.Last guy- couldn't sketch how to connect a transistor and calculate LED dropping resistor. It was terribleNext candidate, said she "would just use Google".What they are doing is making huge fake claims about their knowledge and then using the Internet to get by.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 09, 2018, 02:29:13 am
content: Quote from: floobydust on March 08, 2018, 07:22:44 pmJeez, I'm a college dropout who has spent most of my professional career in software and I could answer those two questions without even thinking about it. That said, Google can be extremely useful, it's not that uncommon that I need to look up a formula or syntax in whatever programming language if it's something I haven't used in a while.I have noticed from networking on LinkedIn that a LOT of people make greatly exaggerated claims on their resumes. Of course with all these automated applicant tracking systems and their keyword filters that everyone is using now, one almost has to embellish to some degree just to get through the filter. I wonder if the systems will get better eventually or if companies will realize the problem. My cynical side suspects we will just end up with whole companies full of people who excel at manipulation and gaming the system.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 09, 2018, 05:04:04 am
content: These registration schemes are mostly just a liability dodge. Companies can show due diligence by requiring this.It is a lot easier than verifying actual competence. I truly respect those who are very good at sorting the good from bad in an interview. I have known a very few. And know that I am not first rank at this. Along with many others.My most graphic proof of this was on an individual I hired after doing an interview including some test questions. Apparently I ask him questions exactly on the only ten things in engineering he knew, because he did fine on those, but when he showed up for work demonstrated that he couldn't do any job more complicated that screwing in a lightbulb. With assistance.Fortunately it turned out he had lied on his degrees and when the universities responded that they had never heard of him it was easy to make him disappear.

author: DerekG
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 09, 2018, 05:07:36 am
content: Quote from: james_s on March 09, 2018, 02:29:13 amI guess this means that Bill Gates & Steve Jobs would never have got a job out here.

author: sibeen
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 09, 2018, 05:23:29 am
content: Quote from: jeremy on March 08, 2018, 05:09:20 amUnfortunately it is required for private enterprise. If you are doing a solar installation it needs to be signed off by a RPEQ, or at least if the system is above a few kW. I've done designs for one large company in a few states, normally minimum of about 30 kW up to about 100 kW, and in Queensland I have to get one of the locals with this august lettering under their name sign it off. I wouldn't hurt too badly except some of the questions I get asked by the RPEQ are bloody embarrassing.

author: Richard Crowley
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 09, 2018, 06:48:51 am
content: Let's not forget the case where a degreed and licensed professional engineer from Sweden was fined by the state of Oregon for "practicing"* without a state license. Where the "license" is essentially a receipt for the fees paid into the state coffers. Note that the "violation" was "resolved" by payment of $500.* "practicing" consisted of complaining to the government about the red-light cameras in Beaverton.https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/man-fined-for-criticizing-govt-using-science-without-a-license/

author: engineerguy
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 09, 2018, 12:54:53 pm
content: I'm not a fan of these sort of things, where otherwise useless organisations (such as EA) try to make themselves more relevant.I went to university with a guy who was working at Air Services Australia, and after we graduated he invited me to some lecturers/talks that were IEEE affiliated. He said that he's starting the process of becoming a chartered engineer (here in Aus/QLD), and needs to fulfill some criteria. Anyway, he said the whole point is for him to be promoted at work since that way he can sign off on projects, etc.