Cheques being phased out in Australia by 2030 - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 08, 2023, 05:59:13 am
content: This was something a few of us were discussing over on the EEVblog IRC channel today.I learned that the Australian government will be phasing out the use of cheques by no later than 2030. Which to me is still quite late considering the use of cheques in Australia is almost zero today.Most Australian banks haven't offered cheques for most accounts for some time, however they will still process cheques that are sent to them (at least for now).In my experience, I've never owned a cheque book and I can count on one hand the number of times I've had to cash a cheque. Same goes for writing cheques, I think I last wrote one in 2002, as the company I worked for at the time still used them.Keen to hear about other's experiences around the world. Correct me if I'm wrong but the US are still fairly reliant on cheques as a form of payment?

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2023, 06:23:43 am
content: I've used to write one every month for rent payments, since that was the only thing management were accepting (other than cash in the office). And a few years back they moved to online payment.The last check I wrote was when I applied for a passport, since that's literally the only form of payment they would accept.And tax refunds also get mailed as a check, unless you provide a bank account number.So, the only use of checks for me are government transactions. They can change that any time and I would be glad to stop using them.

author: Circlotron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2023, 06:38:56 am
content: I wonder what would happen if you got a tax refund cheque for example, from the Reserve Bank of Australia and put it aside and forgot about it for a few decades until they were totally obsolete. Then one day you found it and took it to the bank to deposit it.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2023, 06:41:50 am
content: They have expiration date, usually 2-3 months. But in no case they will last more than 6 months.

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2023, 06:44:20 am
content: I've never had a cheque book at all.I had a deposit book when I opened my account and got a eftpos card in ~1995. but I never got a cheque book, or wrote a cheque.

author: kjpye
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2023, 06:56:33 am
content: Quote from: ataradov on October 08, 2023, 06:41:50 amIf I remember correctly, cheques in Australia have to be valid for at least 15 months. This is to allow for people who accidentally put the previous years date on a cheque—fairly common early in the year.But then I haven't written a cheque in years either—certainly not since before the pandemic.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2023, 06:59:58 am
content: Still not going to work with a few decades of wait time. I'm sure they will wait for 15 months to accept the last remaining ones.

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2023, 07:07:15 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on October 08, 2023, 05:59:13 amPractically nonexistent, but there are a few banks which will cash foreign cheques if you open an account with them. One even did it for free last time I tried.US is where I saw cheques for the first time, as an adulteditApparently they are still legally a thing in Poland, but again, I have never in my life heard of anyone actually writing one.

author: sleemanj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2023, 07:56:05 am
content: Cheques have been completely discontinued here in NZ for a few years now I think, afaik banks won't accept them any longer, and certainly don't issue them. Probably been at least 12-15 years since I wrote a cheque.

author: jfiresto
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2023, 08:43:42 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on October 08, 2023, 05:59:13 amAccording to the U.S. Federal Reserve, Atlanta,3657 million checkswere collected in 2021, roughly half business and half consumer, with an average value of $2395. Their number declined 8.3% per year between 2018 and 2021.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2023, 08:58:42 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on October 08, 2023, 05:59:13 amIf cheques are becoming unused, then it costs banks very little to keep the processes going. Whereas once they might have to have, say, 1000 staff, now they only need one. The banks make enough money that they should be required to deal with a few "corner cases".There are use-cases that strongly indicate using a cheque for random one-off payments.If a recipient doesn't want to give out their bank account details in an email or similar.If the sender cannot use electronic banking, for any of many reasons.If the monies are a surprise gift.Grandparents giving birthday presents are a prime example of the last two.Such considerations caused UK politicians to not allow banks to cease using cheques. Pressure from constituents is a useful tool.

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2023, 09:12:38 am
content: 1. Seems related to the utter insecurity of Direct Debit, at least in the US. As far as I understand, anyone who knows your name and account number can simply take your money by swearing that you authorized itI'm not aware of such fraud happening in Poland (which seems to strongly imply that it is simply impossible) and people used to routinely exchange bank account numbers with strangers to pay for stuff ordered through auction sites or classifieds. Nowadays most of those websites use various "instant electronic payment" services to streamline the process, so it happens less.2. Cash can be deposited into any account at the receiving bank's office or any post office here. A transfer can be ordered at the sending bank's office.3. If you don't know the recipient's account number and don't want to ask you are stuck with cash.

author: jfiresto
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2023, 09:53:44 am
content: Quote from: magic on October 08, 2023, 09:12:38 amI was told you have to be a trusted payee to pull money out of an account, at least within the ACH system.QuoteI can not speak for Poland, but IIRC (I have only done it once in the last 30 years), a payer here, can within five or was it six weeks, simply tell their bank to reverse the debit. That appears to be a sufficient threat to discourage the fraud. The right of time-limited, unconditional reversal was a condition the banks had to agree to to get rid of paper checks.

author: jpanhalt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2023, 10:03:20 am
content: I still use checks. They give one a little control over monolithic entities like pubic services with no customer service. They are also safer than plastic and autopay. Checks at least have a recognizable signature; whereas, the virtual "signatures" on touch pads are to me unrecognizable.As for old checks, yes banks can refuse to take them on deposit after several months as stated. However it becomes somewhat optional at the short end of that period. (I have never tested the 6-month limit.) In the past year, a "lost check" arrived, and it was a little past the printed expiration date. My bank suggested the simplest solution was to deposit it and see whether it cleared. It did.Also, an expired check is not lost money. The debt for which the check was written still exists, at least in the US.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2023, 10:08:22 am
content: I visited a business recently that only took cash or cheque in the UK. In the end we agreed to use the bank account numbers printed on the cheque to transfer the money electronically, for some reason that had not been apparent to the owner as a possibility.

author: jpanhalt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2023, 10:54:19 am
content: I can understand why some businesses would not take plastic. The fees charge for plastic are high, and profit margins for some businesses are quite low (e.g., 5%). One local market I go to has a minimum for using plastic for that reason.

author: EPAIII
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2023, 11:39:56 am
content: I still routinely pay my lawn crew with a check. I don't think they can take credit cards or any kind of direct transfer of funds. The only other way would be cash but the government wants to do away with that as well.Other service providers also want cash or a check - no credit cards. My AC service man. My appliance services. So, what happens from there?But I can see where more than one government agency may find the idea of having all financial transactions totally traceable would be a good one. But that does not mean that I would.I am probably too old to ever trust something like bit-coin.I just had a thought. When a certain political party here finds out that their imported "voters" only want cash, they may change their minds about all this. Of course that won't happen in every country.

author: EPAIII
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2023, 11:47:25 am
content: Just as an aside, my bank now has a cell phone "app" that allows me to deposit checks by taking pictures of the front and back, with my endorsement signature. I get one check every month and deposit it that way with no problems. After depositing them that way, I just mark them "Deposited" and stuff them away. The bank never gets the actual paper check. I guess after a while I can destroy them.This may be an intermediate step.

author: BrianHG
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2023, 01:38:52 pm
content: Still use checks for some private contractors like hiring painters / renovaters / yard work / plumber / temp employees.I cant see paying them cash as some of them would be receiving upwards of a few thousand dollars.A check also leaves a traceable paper trail as the receiving bank sends my bank a scan of the deposited check they had to sign the back of.I wouldn't know how to send large sums of money except for a money transfer which involves going online and dealing with my bank's website having to get everything done right...I basically have this little book of blank checks. I write down the recipients name, a dollar amount, and sign. Then give it or mail it to the recipient. It's very convenient and doesn't require an online connection.

author: AndyBeez
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2023, 02:52:39 pm
content: When did I last write a cheque/check? Let me look...Whoa 2008.I still had surfers hair back then

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2023, 03:09:50 pm
content: Quote from: Halcyon on October 08, 2023, 05:59:13 amThe US and most people here are not "reliant" on paper checks, but unfortunately they are still widely used. Less than 10% of my bills need to be paid with a paper check, but unfortunately that isn't just outfits like the landscapers--we have two doctors offices that won't accept anything else. In addition, a lot of elderly people still write checks and balance their checkbooks manually.This has led to widespread fraud recently where thieves are intercepting checks in the mail and altering them or using the account numbers. IMHO, this is 99% the fault of banks for not implementing consumer positive pay. Mailing paper instruments that have your checking account numbers in plain digits right on the front is a insane risk in a modern world where it is so easy to implement countermeasures. Even if I use online bill pay, if my payee is not setup for electronic payments the bank mails them a printed check. One of my banks withdraws the money from my account and sends them a bank check without my account information on it--and I'll be they have positive pay set up on that. The other two send a printed check that has all of my account info on it anyway.

author: DimitriP
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2023, 04:29:56 pm
content: VISA (matercard AMEX and friends) welcome the obsolesence of any physical form of payment that doesn't involve ...VISA (and friends).Goldman Sachs doesn't mind that either (https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2021/08/apple-card-and-goldman-ranked-highest-in-customer-satisfaction-in-jd-power-study/)2% to 5% of a very large amount is still a very large amount.With a cheque you can pay without anyone getting the 2% to 5% "hit".Of course if you are "VISA" or an online payment processor , you want checques over and done with, since you are collecting 2% to %5 on the entire planet's transactions with a realtime digital trail.(not to mention interest collected on credit cards, because you want those "reward points" don't you ?As for NZ...it's a liitle larger than the City of Los AngelesNZ ~ 5M , Los Angeles ~ 3.8M ( county of Los Angeles is ~9.8 M)Compared to the planet, it's what in some circles called " a small sample size".Apologies to all NZ readers. It's just the numbersAs for AU...."Non-cash payments account for most of the value of payments in the Australian economy. On average, in 2022 non-cash payments worth around $280 billion were made each business day...".What's 2-5% of $280B with a B ? (https://www.rba.gov.au/payments-and-infrastructure/payments-system.html)Yeah!

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2023, 04:34:59 pm
content: You need to look at the number of transactions performed with the checks today, not the total market for payments. This number would be their incentive to kill the checks. If even in the presence of checks today people pay using VISA, this is a clear vote that VISA fees make up for convenience.For example, when I paid the passport application fees, I'd happily pay 10% more to just be able to pay with the card.

author: DavidAlfa
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2023, 04:45:43 pm
content: Cheques looked extremely outdated even 20 years ago when online banking was already a thing.I only had a cheque once, it was a PITA to cash, my bank wanted a fee because it was issued by a different entity, had to go to the f** end of the city, get the cash, go back to my bank and deposit it.To me it's just a messy way to transfer money!

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2023, 04:48:31 pm
content: Quote from: DimitriP on October 08, 2023, 04:29:56 pmThere are many different electronic payment systems that don't go through VISA, MC or the like and have minimal or no fees (to the user in any case). ACH, Zelle, etc. Even wire transfers are cheap to free at many banks.

author: jfiresto
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2023, 05:19:16 pm
content: Quote from: DavidAlfa on October 08, 2023, 04:45:43 pmI did not find sending or receiving Eurocheques all that much bother, but then I could expect that any branch of a bank routinely handled them. I wrote my last one just over 22 years ago. They were discontinued three months later, at the start of 2002, at which point everyone just used the guaranteeing Maestro/Eurocheque card purely as a debit card. (It already was one.)

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2023, 06:31:21 pm
content: Is the Australian government phasing out checks due to consumer demand, or demand by the banking industry?

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2023, 07:04:33 pm
content: To save trees.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 08, 2023, 08:49:37 pm
content: Quote from: jpanhalt on October 08, 2023, 10:54:19 amSeems to be the opposite case here and many other parts of the world. Increasingly, businesses are starting to refuse cash in favour of electronic payment methods. Transaction fees aren't zero, but they are pretty negligible in the grand scheme of things (and the amount is capped by law).Even sole traders are able to accept card payments because it's cheap and easy, and doesn't come with all the complications of handling cash. You can walk down to a local office supply store, buy a $30 card reader and start accepting card payments in minutes. Card fees are typically under 2%, or capped at some nominal fee like $4 if the transaction is particularly large.It would be unusual to walk into a shop in Australia where card wasn't accepted. Years ago, a few in my local area tried that and either had their hand forced (through customer domain) or went out of business.There may be some exceptional edge cases where a business is being transacted simply doesn't have cellular coverage or internet access via some other method, however, I can't say I've ever been to such a place. I've been to some pretty remote towns in Australia where even Telstra (AU's largest telco) coverage is non-existant, and they still have broadband via satellite or the National Broadband Network. It would be highly unusual to go to any town with any kind of population and not have some cellular covarge. Years ago I travelled through a small town called 'Tilpa' in New South Wales. I think it has a population of 40 and the pub is also the petrol station, post office, corner store etc... Even that had 4G/LTE coverage.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2023, 09:17:52 pm
content: Quote from: TimFox on October 08, 2023, 06:31:21 pmLikely to simplify their systems (fewer options, less to maintain) so basically just cost saving.

author: David_AVD
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2023, 09:24:59 pm
content: I officially stopped accepting cheques about 5 years ago, but in reality I think I only ever saw one or two in the previous 10 years before that.I'd much rather have the funds in my business account that night even with the 1 - 2 % transaction fee. No worry about going to the bank, will the cheque clear, etc.I see a mix of American Express, MasterCard, Visa and debit cards and the odd cash payment. Good riddance to cheques I say!As a consumer I pay with credit card, EFT or cash.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2023, 09:30:45 pm
content: Many of the above posters not only do not like or use checks themselves, they want to stop everyone else from using them.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2023, 09:34:16 pm
content: Quote from: Halcyon on October 08, 2023, 05:59:13 amLast time I used a cheque must have been nearly 30 years ago. I recall buying my first logic analyser using a cheque but that was one of the last things I paid with a cheque. Nowadays I use my phone to transfer money to somebody directly and they can see the transaction entering into their bank account near realtime. No risk of a cheque received from somebody getting declined or forgetting you wrote one and run out of money.

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2023, 09:34:48 pm
content: Quote from: Halcyon on October 08, 2023, 08:49:37 pmI do not believe it is that simple. There are likely monthly system connection fee. No payment service provider would allow you to jump in that simple.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2023, 09:39:25 pm
content: Quote from: Bud on October 08, 2023, 09:34:48 pmIt is that simple (and cheap). You can buy these card readers which connect to a mobile phone app. Prices are as Halcyon indicated.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2023, 09:40:25 pm
content: Quote from: TimFox on October 08, 2023, 09:30:45 pmI don't object to others using them nor is it a problem for me to accept them, but I don't want to be compelled to write them without reasonable security features (that we don't have).

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2023, 09:41:06 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on October 08, 2023, 09:34:16 pmPersonal electronic transactions here have limits. To pay big amounts like to replace the roof, do the driveway, instal HVAC equipment, build a fence, etc, it is easier to write a single check then spread payments over several days. Also make contractors happy for same reason.

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2023, 09:49:13 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on October 08, 2023, 09:39:25 pmPhones? I have never seen merchants using phones to accept payments. Here everyone is using proper Point-of-Sale terminals. That equipment is regulated by Payment Brands and have payment encryption keys loaded. Not sure what Mikkey Mouse system you guys are using on your phones.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2023, 09:51:19 pm
content: Quote from: BrianHG on October 08, 2023, 01:38:52 pmHave these people not heard of Square & similar services ?

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2023, 09:53:37 pm
content: Quote from: Bud on October 08, 2023, 09:49:13 pmThe phone app is used with a small box connected via Bluetooth, which provides the NFC and chip reading, and does the security stuff

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2023, 09:56:45 pm
content: QuoteSum up in the uk have a no monthly charge optionQuoteagain the uks sum up uses the merchants phone to contact the mothership,the card reader connects via bluetooth to the phone

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 08, 2023, 10:04:29 pm
content: Quote from: Bud on October 08, 2023, 09:34:48 pmSquare is just one example. Officeworks (it's like Australia's version of Staples) sell the readers on the shelf. Zero monthly fees and it really is just "that simple". Some major banks also have their own terminals which you can rent if you're processing a larger number of payments. They're usually around the $30/month mark. You can even walk in and buy yourself a proper POS terminal:https://www.officeworks.com.au/shop/officeworks/p/square-register-with-detachable-customer-display-pisqu012, you own the hardware, and again zero on-going fees. You just pay a nominal transaction fee.Even if you are just a hobbist and you want to accept the odd card payment, there is really nothing stopping you from doing so.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2023, 10:05:47 pm
content: Quote from: TimFox on October 08, 2023, 09:30:45 pmPrecisely.It would be good to hear from those that use cheques, to find their use-cases.Banks would like to save money by phasing out cheques. Use of cheques is diminishing, therefore the costs are diminishing - and that reason for preventing cheque use doesn't hold water.Banksshouldserve their customers, not dictate how the customers have to behave.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2023, 10:07:45 pm
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on October 08, 2023, 09:40:25 pmSurely that is a straw man argument! Nobody is compelling use of cheques; rather the compulsion is to not use cheques.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 08, 2023, 10:10:55 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on October 08, 2023, 10:05:47 pmI don't think it's just on the Government/banks. Consumer and business habits dictate this.There is a reason most businesses these days don't use Telegrams, Telex, or even fax for that matter. How long do you go out of your way to support obsolete methods?

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2023, 10:12:51 pm
content: Quote from: Bud on October 08, 2023, 09:49:13 pmHere most street market traders and festival traders use a card reader connected to a cellphone. My daughter sells ice creams that way. There is essentially zero barrier to startups.I believe this is one of several examples:https://www.zettle.com/gb

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2023, 10:21:09 pm
content: Quote from: Halcyon on October 08, 2023, 10:10:55 pmSince the mechanisms already exist, it isn't "out of your way".You mention telex. One interesting aspect of telexes is that contracts could be legally enforced if telex comms were used, since the endpoints were rented from trusted third parties. Not so for emails, of course.You continue to have the mechanisms untilallof the use cases can be satisfied by other means. I have indicated a couple of problematic cases.Backward compatibility is very important. IBM and Microsoft never break backwards compatibility, for sound reasons. There are even some unchanged Win3.1 dialog boxes in Win11!

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2023, 10:42:06 pm
content: Quote from: Halcyon on October 08, 2023, 10:10:55 pmThere are a number of claimed reasons for this move, but it is clearly a strategic governmental plan. It doesn't "just happen".https://ministers.treasury.gov.au/ministers/jim-chalmers-2022/media-releases/modernising-payments-infrastructure-phasing-out-cheques

author: DimitriP
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2023, 10:42:52 pm
content: Quote from: Bud on October 08, 2023, 09:41:06 pmLike somone said earlier ...... 2% to 5% of a "big amount" is still a big amountI always wanted to buy a car and use my card. I got the chance to try it. Nope. No go. They wanted cash or check. At 11pm at night.Wrote a check and drove off !Next time I might try to pay with $1 bills.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2023, 10:49:53 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on October 08, 2023, 10:42:06 pmThat document states, in all seriousness, "As cheque use declines, the cost of supporting the cheque system will continue to increase". That's bovine excrement, pure and simple.What's happening is that the government is merely enabling banks' strategic plans.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2023, 10:51:33 pm
content: Quote from: DimitriP on October 08, 2023, 10:42:52 pmMy limited understanding is that banks charge the same for handling cash from businesses.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2023, 10:57:49 pm
content: Quote from: Bud on October 08, 2023, 09:41:06 pmNo. I can raise the limit temporarily and make a single large payment. Same for things like buying a car with a debit card.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2023, 11:08:59 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on October 08, 2023, 10:05:47 pmOf course it does - if usage is low, the costper chequeincreases massively. Equipment, training new staff, keeping old systems going/integrating with new systems, increased printing costs for low quantities and probably lots more.At some point it's just not worth the hassle.

author: DimitriP
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2023, 11:13:51 pm
content: Quote"obsolete" is not obsolete until IT IS obsolete.unfortunately most of the time, it's used to paint negatively a product or service the current salesman or company can't sell you.esigning subscription, phone company replacing POTS with VOIP etcjust wait until "cloud oscilloscopes" show up and the only way to use it would be to sign into your subscription acccount and the oscilloscope salesman will say "stand alone oscilloscopes are "obsolete" "1995, microsoft guy whose name I wish I knew said "No one is using the comand prompt any more".Then Microsoft "innovated" with Windows server core, powershell, and the "windows terminal".Command prompt...not so obsolete.

author: DimitriP
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2023, 11:19:33 pm
content: QuoteThe problem with this thread is we are dealing with different personalities, from different backgrounds from different countries.I don't know what fees businesses get chanrged for having a bank account in the use.But I do know that when I deposit a check for $100 , I do end up with $100 in the account.When you take a card payment for $100 , you end up with less than $100.Just ask a business that doesn't take american express, why they don't. They'll tell you

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2023, 11:23:34 pm
content: Quote from: DimitriP on October 08, 2023, 11:19:33 pmThis is because the bank is not transparant about what they do with your money. How much time does it take for a check to appear in your bank balance? I bet this is a couple of days to maybe even more than a week. Where is your money during that time? Well, the bank is using it to make a quick buck and cover the expenses for doing the transaction.Over here banks are no longer playing that game. You typically get charged a monthly fee and a cost for every transaction you make (the latter mostly for business bank accounts). Over here banks charge companies for doing cash deposits. So taking electronic payments is cheaper, faster (nobody needs to go to the bank at the end of the day) and safer.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2023, 11:30:07 pm
content: In the US banks are obligated to make the deposited check balance to be available within 24 hours. They can settle the processing with the issuing bank.This is the base for a lot of scams that make people deposit bad checks and pay back some sum of their own money. The check bounces after a few weeks, but by that time it is too late.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2023, 11:30:28 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on October 08, 2023, 11:08:59 pmStrawman argument: I didn't mention cost per cheque -and neither do the banks (or their enablers, governments).The argument put forward by banks is in terms of cost.Since the processes and organisation are mature, non-staffing costs will be fixed - and/or fully depreciated.If the number of cheques is diminishing, fewer staff are required to support cheques is diminishing, and staffing costs are probably the dominant costs.Hence, unless worked reasoning and costs are provided, it is reasonable to presume the cost of processing chequeswill be diminishing.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2023, 11:32:01 pm
content: Quote from: DimitriP on October 08, 2023, 11:13:51 pmDon't give them ideas! Oh but I know those ideas are already there...

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2023, 11:33:06 pm
content: Quote from: DimitriP on October 08, 2023, 11:19:33 pmAnd when a business in the UK hands in £100 cash, they end up with less than £100 in their. 2% less, I've been told by an auction house.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2023, 11:36:52 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on October 08, 2023, 11:23:34 pmAnd then there was the famous $95,093.35 cheque...https://www.scotsman.com/news/opinion/columnists/patrick-combs-heard-the-one-about-the-cashed-junk-mail-cheque-1613914

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2023, 11:37:45 pm
content: Current law in the US is a bit complicated, depending on the nature of the check (along with cash and other forms of deposit).Seehttps://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/CFR-2018-title12-vol3/xml/CFR-2018-title12-vol3-part229.xmlfor full text.For lots of typical checks (with exceptions carefully enumerated in that long text), money must be available in the customer's account not later than the "business day after the banking day" when the check or cash is deposited.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2023, 11:38:49 pm
content: Quote from: ataradov on October 08, 2023, 11:30:07 pm... or not, as with the famous $95,093.35 cheque (q.v.)

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2023, 11:44:10 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on October 08, 2023, 11:23:34 pmWhile you can argue some "hidden" fees like that on cheques, it is a rather moot point in times where interest rates have been very low. Sure rates are raising back now (which is another story), but it's a relatively recent trend.There was absolutely zero quuestion that the actual fees on card payments have been much higher than anything you'd potentially lose from the banks delaying cheques for a few days.Of course the downside of cheques has been that you took the risk of them bouncing. Even though (at least in some countries), there had been services for a long time where as a professional you could consult whether a given cheque would be honored, past a certain amount. Of course that wasn't a 100% guarantee as the money could have disappeeared from the bank account in the meantime, but that prevented the obvious "scams" from people paying with cheques that would be certain of bouncing.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2023, 11:44:26 pm
content: Quote from: TimFox on October 08, 2023, 11:37:45 pmSo basically the banks can do what they like with the money for 24 hours. Imagine how much extra interest free money that is on a balance sheet of a bank with a couple of million customers. There ain't not such thing as a free lunch.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2023, 11:51:38 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on October 08, 2023, 11:44:26 pmI'm not sure they can. Because with this system, the money is not out of the issuing account. If they also consider the money to be available internally on their side, then the same money exists twice and can be invested twice by two separate banks. So, newly deposited check looks more like a credit, not the real money.And given that it takes weeks to settle the transfer, the money would be doubled that way for a very long time.

author: vad
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2023, 02:58:55 am
content: Checks are still widely used by businesses here in the US, especially for B2B transactions. Organizing AP workflows and controls for check payments is easier than for ACH. Wire transfers are higher risk than checks and are more susceptible to fraud. I know of an incident where fraudsters using social engineering attempted to modify beneficiary details for a wire transfer of an 8-figure sum and were stopped at the last minute thanks to the vigilance of an AP clerk, but they were very close to success. Unlike wire transfers, checks can be canceled at least several days after issuance.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 09, 2023, 05:02:28 am
content: Quote from: tggzzz on October 08, 2023, 10:21:09 pmYou can only keep backward compatibility going for so long. Eventually it just becomes uneconomical to maintain. You can only flog a dead horse for so long.Australia has already said goodbye to PSTN lines, Frame Relay, public pager networks, Telex, ISDN and probably others I'm not aware of.Handing over little bits of handwritten paper to transfer money between bank accounts is as archaic as the bank transaction books that used to be printed using a dot matrix printer over the counter.I can't think of a single use-case, other than consumer stubbornness, that can't be satisfied with current technologies, in a faster, cheaper and arguably more secure manner.As for backwards compatibility within operating systems; it wasn't that long ago we were running 16-bit applications and drivers. Look at where that support is today.

author: jonpaul
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2023, 05:24:59 am
content: Bonjour,After the inevitable hacks (banks, government, large firms) and possible future EMP your digital transactions will be at risk or lost.Any important transaction should be preserved as paper and stored in a safe or deposit box.DO NOT DEPEND ON ANY IMPORTANT ELECTRONIC PAYMENT TO BE PRESERVED .....MAKE A PAPER BACKUP.In France and EU, chèques are used for ebay, le Bon Coin, etc as electronic payments like PayPal are not trusteed, and cost 3..10% fees.In USA certain services , vendors will accept only cash or checks.Jon

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2023, 05:27:24 am
content: Also, don't rely on the car, they inevitably break down. Any important transportation should be done by horse buggies.

author: jonpaul
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2023, 06:00:56 am
content: Alex, due to environazis, your car will be gone/illegal/unuseable in a few yrs.Your gov will require you to wonderful public transport.Jon

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2023, 06:04:59 am
content: I'm scared. I'll go live under the rock to prevent that.Also, I'll be very happy to use public transport if it was not entirely broken in the US.

author: mariush
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2023, 06:06:58 am
content: Here in Romania, I used to get paper cheques from Google Adsense and from a Canadian company I worked for as a freelancer, up to maybe 4-5 years ago.Even back then, only one bank out of maybe 10 I asked was willing to accept my cheques as a private person (not company) and only if I agreed to deposit around 30$ in local currency (to cover their costs if the cheque is found to be invalid) and used to take 30 days to receive the money (I guess they waited until it was no longer possible for the other party to cancel the cheque or something like that). They would refund that deposit minus something like 10$ + 1% of cheque value in cheque processing feesAfter a few months they started to give me the money in around 15 days and stopped asking for a deposit but it was still a pain in the ass.Last year, I had another random cheque after I stopped dealing with cheques for ~2 years and discovered all the bank stopped accepting cheques. Only one bank was willing to make some exceptions but you had to be a client of theirs for at least 6 months to even attempt, and I wasn't a client... so I just had the company send me money though paypal instead.

author: johnh
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2023, 07:23:55 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on October 09, 2023, 05:02:28 amMy mother who is her nineties was telling me about a friend of hers. Her friend had to get some one to drive her to the bank in Box Hill, about 6.5k away from where she lived.Didn't have a debit card. All she had was a transaction book.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2023, 09:11:19 am
content: I hope you guys can still pay in salt or silver coins. I mean, do the bad government want to get rid of directly exchanging donkeys for goods? Can you still use seashells though, right?

author: Muttley Snickers
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 09, 2023, 09:32:42 am
content: I don't know which land the OP is living in but from my experience, observations and perspective.... cheques are still commonplace and cash is still king.

author: jonpaul
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2023, 09:36:53 am
content: US Constution Art 1 sec 10:No State shall .... make any Thing but gold and silver Coin a Tender in Payment of Debt...Jon

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2023, 09:37:12 am
content: Quote from: ataradov on October 09, 2023, 05:27:24 amCrap, my horse just died

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 09, 2023, 09:45:48 am
content: Quote from: johnh on October 09, 2023, 07:23:55 amYep, and banks have been progressively phasing those out as well. First went the dot matrix printers, so bank staff had to hand-write those few who insisted on using transaction books. I dare say that will continue until either those account holders pass away, or there are no bank branches to visit. My bank for example doesn't have any branches at all.Quote from: Muttley Snickers on October 09, 2023, 09:32:42 amPerhaps in your small corner of the world, but looking at the national picture (of which the RBA publish regular statistics), the vast majority of the population would say otherwise.That'sthe land I live in. In the financial year 2021-2022, cheques represented just 0.2% of payment methods Australia-wide.

author: rdl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2023, 11:26:39 am
content: I write two checks every month and one I could avoid if I wasn't so lazy. But how would I pay my credit card if there were no checks? I guess these days there's some way to transfer the money directly?

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 09, 2023, 11:39:39 am
content: Quote from: rdl on October 09, 2023, 11:26:39 amDo you guys not have "direct debit" or transfers between banks? i.e.: The minimum balance just gets deducted from your normal savings account by the credit card company automatically, or you manually transfer the funds via internet banking to a BSB and account number?

author: sleemanj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2023, 12:16:31 pm
content: Quote from: rdl on October 09, 2023, 11:26:39 amIn most places in the world, login to your bank website/app, choose to send some money, enter the recipient account or search known payees, enter the amount (and if you want it one-off now, or at a future date, or recurring), and hit the button. Money leaves your account and arrives at the destination, be it your credit card, your power company, or your mate Jimbob, within a short tIme.US has a very old complicated and brittle banking system which is very resistant to change for various reasons, so the old ways live on there with checks.

author: DennisCA
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2023, 12:18:43 pm
content: I think cheques where basically phased out by the late 1980s in Finland? I can't remember ever having seen a cheque outside an american TV show.

author: DennisCA
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2023, 12:21:04 pm
content: Quote from: tszaboo on October 09, 2023, 09:11:19 amWho doesn't know how to use the three sea shells?

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2023, 01:29:44 pm
content: Quote from: Halcyon on October 09, 2023, 05:02:28 amSending a present.Not wanting to send bank details by an insecure mechanism, e.g. email.Old people that can't use the internet, for any/all of several reasons.Having apapertrail accessible in 15 years time.Small local charities can prefer to receive subscriptions/donations by cheque, since it is easier for the charity's treasurer.No doubt there are others. You might not be able to think of them because they don't apply to you, but Martin Niemöller wrote a well-remembered poem that is relevant beyond its origin.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2023, 01:31:20 pm
content: Quote from: tszaboo on October 09, 2023, 09:11:19 amClearly you are young. I presume you are going to avoid becoming old.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2023, 01:33:52 pm
content: Quote from: DimitriP on October 08, 2023, 04:29:56 pmDo you think processing cheques costs nothing? The banks have to pay to manage this (large clearing houses, possibility of fraud and cancelled/bounced cheques too) and charge large businesses fees for processing these, typically a flat fee per cheque. Also negotiated interchange fees are quite low. Square for instance here charges merchants 1.7% of which half goes to Visa/Mastercard/AMEX.I welcome the end of cheques.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2023, 01:34:08 pm
content: Quote from: Halcyon on October 09, 2023, 09:45:48 amAnd hence the costs are a very small expense on the banks' balance sheet.Banks want to grossly inconvenience some customers in order to give their owners/CEO a larger payout. Not acceptable.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2023, 01:36:33 pm
content: By me cheques went obsolete, and vanished, before the Pandemic, and nobody actually misses them. Seeing as the banks estimated 10% of the cheques issued were likely to be returned RD, or were forged to defraud money, them going was good riddance. Want to pay a bill, use the phone app from your bank, and all is done immediately, no need to find a stamp or an envelope (and in any case good luck sending a letter, the SAPO is in receivership, assets less than 1% of the debt) or a post box. Plus the immediate update on your bank account to show it is sent, and then a day or two later on the verification the amount has transferred, typically next working day between any 2 banks.Want to send money there are multiple methods, use the supermarket money counter, and send a message with the transaction number, and a PIN, and recipient goes to the same supermarket chain with ID, and enters PIN, gets money, you paid the cheap fee up front. Easier now just send to the supermarket app, and recipient goes there to collect, or you use the cardless transaction feature at the ATM, which works like the supermarket, though with a slightly higher transaction fee of course (thank you Beep Bank, for making it harder), offered in some form or the other by all the banks, even those that are almost totally online and almost branchless.As to sending a present, you send it via a cardless transaction to the recipient, even elderly people here are well capable of going to Shoprite, and showing the cashier the code off the phone, and getting the money out the till. No bank details sent at all, just a transaction code, like commonly used for prepayment phone, prepaid electricity and prepaid water.No internet, just a dumb phone can do phone banking, all banks support it, and it uses short codes, and then sends a SMS to both parties, and is popular in rural areas, saving sending money home by risky methods, Gogo just goes to the spaza shop, and gets paid out.Paper trail who still gets a printed statement, all banks will email them to you, you print them out if you want, or just keep the emailed version. No way to have some dumpster diver getting the old statement, taking the bank details, and then impersonating you (easy enough) and getting a new card, to replace the "lost card", changing the address and phone number, and emptying your account.I closed my cheque account when I realised I was writing one a year, and that the monthly fees worked out to 5 times the cheque cost over the year. That was in 1994, never missed it since then, even if it meant I had to actually walk into a branch with the cash, down to the cent, to pay a bill in the late 2000's. They went online a year later, so the last time I went into a branch to handle money was then, the rest of the time was to do account stuff, collect a card, or to get lunch at my branch, as it has a pretty good staff canteen in there, open to the public. I do more banking at the supermarket over the branch, and the one low fee bank uses a chain of supermarkets, branded red and yellow, and pretty much all over the country, as their actual tellers and front end, with a call centre and online for everything else. A few branches to handle the paper and plastic cards, and send to the supermarket, is all they have.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2023, 01:46:49 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on October 09, 2023, 01:33:52 pmI rarely use cheques, but they are occasionally useful.Suppose, for the sake of argument, processing a cheque costs double processing a credit card transfer or processing cash, e.g. extra 2%. Halcyon mentioned that 0.2% of transactions are via cheque. 2% of 0.2% is lost in the noise of other expenses.I've worked for a company that provided financial settlement software. The amount of money and number of transactions is collossal, and is rarely completely reconciled. Each bank has its own rules on what non-reconciliations are acceptable, i.e. "lost in the noise". That vastly exceeds the cost of a small number of cheques - even if bounced cheques are included.So the "vast cost of processing cheques" argument doesn't hold water. It is banks' greed, vastly inconveniencing some customers in order to increase the CEO's salary. Not acceptable.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2023, 01:48:54 pm
content: Again, I would not force others to use checks, and would appreciate not being forced to use a telephone for payments myself.Live and let live.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2023, 02:03:09 pm
content: Quote from: TimFox on October 09, 2023, 01:48:54 pmJust so.Being deaf, it is very hit-and-miss as to whether I could use a telephone: the person's voice and accent, background noises/voices, and VOIP over-provisioning are all problems.Being deaf, I can't use a smartphone. I haven't been able to try a T4/M4 smartphone - and trying one is the only way to be sure. While I'm prepared to spend £20 to see if a cellphone is acceptable, I can't afford to buy multiple smartphones on the offchance that one might be usable.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2023, 02:10:47 pm
content: QuoteInstead of the ole inductive coupling wouldnt a bluetooth enabled hearing aid give a better phone choice?

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2023, 02:13:10 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on October 09, 2023, 01:31:20 pmClearly I was born in a soviet occupied country, where cheque usage was 0.00% and if you tried using it after 1989 everyone just assumed that you want to scam them.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2023, 02:20:12 pm
content: Quote from: tszaboo on October 09, 2023, 02:13:10 pmYou are avoiding the point. We noticed.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2023, 04:33:58 pm
content: I don't see the phaseout of cheques as being related to bosses wanting bigger salaries. Their salaries are set by market forces.Really it's a case of a small number of people using an obsolete method to pay which costs a disproportionate amount to handle. Bank transfers are free (in most countries) and safe.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2023, 04:51:57 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on October 09, 2023, 02:20:12 pmWait, your point is that old people cannot learn how to use anything else? That went totally over my head. Why?Because I'm coming from a country, where nobody is using cheque, and we somehow manage.

author: BrianHG
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2023, 05:10:52 pm
content: Quote from: Bud on October 08, 2023, 07:04:33 pmUsed trees will get re-planted. It they aren't being used for paper, they will end up as lumber/wood anyways.

author: jonpaul
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2023, 05:14:38 pm
content: In a gov tax audit all proof is via paper evidence.A canceled paper check is your best defense.Jon

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2023, 05:31:53 pm
content: Quote from: tszaboo on October 09, 2023, 04:51:57 pmDon't be a twat!As you will find - if you are lucky - the older you get the more difficult it is to take on radically new concepts.My father, who had a DSc (i.e. >>PhD) in two phase flow and fluid dynamics, never really got to grips with the internet and web.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2023, 05:51:48 pm
content: Quote from: tszaboo on October 09, 2023, 04:51:57 pmAnd thus it follows that the rest of us must stop using checks, as well, regardless of our own preferences.

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2023, 06:04:40 pm
content: Quote from: tszaboo on October 09, 2023, 09:11:19 amYou better sharpen your skills in trading donkeys for goods, as this is where the world is going, if you have not noticed yet.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2023, 08:47:44 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on October 09, 2023, 05:31:53 pmI think you underestimate the elderly. They are really resourceful when they actually want to do something - or when they are forced to.Quote from: TimFox on October 09, 2023, 05:51:48 pmDo you live in Australia? Am I forcing you to do something? No?Do whatever you please, but please don't be surprized when you get mockery for it from the people who send URLs or QR codes and get their payment in less than a minute.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2023, 09:02:01 pm
content: Quote from: tszaboo on October 09, 2023, 08:47:44 pmThat's no more than a convenient rationalisation of your dismissive attitude (that you conveniently snipped).How old are you?What is your definition of elderly? 90, 80, 70, 60, 50, 40, 30?What experience do you personally have of people from an earlier generation and their capability?

author: AndyBeez
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2023, 09:05:07 pm
content: I observed today in my local store queue how I was the only one NOT paying with a smart phone or an Apple Watch.Contactless payment using a real plastic card is becoming a minority option. The little old lady in front of me had an iPhone.

author: David_AVD
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2023, 09:12:31 pm
content: My parents are in their mid - late eighties and use internet banking, tablets and smart phones, etc.I don't know of anyone who has written or received a cheque in the last 5 years.Tax refunds, etc all go straight back into your bank account.Most of my customers use credit / debit card via the tap function, a few insert the card and a few use their phone / watch.The phone / watch users are not always the young ones either. Some are in the 50 - 80 year old bracket.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2023, 09:19:35 pm
content: Quote from: David_AVD on October 09, 2023, 09:12:31 pmAnd bugger the others; they can go to hell.Most people can see. Bugger the blind - it is uneconomic to enable them to be part of society.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2023, 09:20:10 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on October 09, 2023, 09:02:01 pmNone of your business. BTW I gave you a very good indication about it in this very thread.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2023, 09:23:10 pm
content: Quote from: tszaboo on October 09, 2023, 09:20:10 pmYour age is relevant to your intolerant position.Sorry I don't remember the subtleties of all your posts. Remind us.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2023, 09:25:30 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on October 09, 2023, 05:31:53 pmHaving a PhD or higher doesn't mean you are actually smart. Just good at one thing -maybe-

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2023, 09:33:15 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on October 09, 2023, 09:25:30 pmA DSc in a highly technical subject does imply a technical competance. My father was the kind of person that would try new thingsbecausehe hadn't done them before, e.g. make a suit from a roll of cloth, just for the fun of it. one of his last published papers was predicting what would happen if a PWR suffered a catastrophic LOCA (loss of coolant accident) where the bottom was blown out of the reactor. Fukushima was quarter of a century in the future, and more or less confirmed the predictions)

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2023, 09:33:29 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on October 09, 2023, 05:31:53 pmI think you are the one being a twat. Everyone's IQ and ability to grasp new things falls with age, but falls at very different rates, and from different starting points. Most people struggle while still at high school. Some people grasp most new things with little effort when they are 90. The problem is not age. Its people who started out with the short straw in life, and will NEVER grasp anything moderately complex without massive reinforcement. Modern society really has no place where they can thrive.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2023, 09:38:09 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on October 09, 2023, 09:33:29 pmSo what is the logical consequence of that statement? Logan's Run?"The race does not always go to the fastest, but that's the way to bet"

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2023, 09:40:26 pm
content: It certainly deserves a discussion, just like the phasing out of cash, which is also planned.Now discussing is nice, considering different point of views is important, but who here thinks we actually have any say about it? Just curious.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2023, 09:46:59 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on October 09, 2023, 09:40:26 pmThere is some evidence that if enough people complain to their MP (i.e. elected representative) then they will take notice and take action.Doesn't always workBut phasing out cash is an interesting topic. Screw those that can't get a bank account and cards; they don't count.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2023, 09:50:52 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on October 09, 2023, 09:38:09 pmHuh? Are you having a problem grasping concepts, either here or while reading/watching Logan's Run? Something like 9% or 10% of the population are of such low ability, even when young, that people with a wide variety of needs, like, famously, the US Army cannot find even simple tasks for them where their presence is a net positive. If we make simple base line tasks, like making simple payments, more intellectually challenging you can rapidly exclude way beyond that 9 or 10%, even among the young and physically fit. It just gets somewhat worse when looking at an older cohort. Combine this with failing education systems graduating more and more people who presumably follow typical norms of ability, but who have been taught very little, and an ever more complex baseline for living could be a true catastrophe.If you didn't grasp Logan's Run you had a cohort of very similar ability people. Not too bright. not too dumb. Poorly educated with a web of lies. All reaching a similar level of degradation at the age of 30, and all being bumped off in a public spectacle they'd been left too dumb to grasp.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2023, 09:51:10 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on October 09, 2023, 09:40:26 pmWho cares in the end. The amount of money people have / receive is just a number which reflects how society is valueing their contribution or inherited contributions to society. Why does it matter how and where that number is stored or represented?

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2023, 09:53:39 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on October 09, 2023, 09:51:10 pmBecause if you don't have tight control over your number, someone else will, and has immense power over you. Even now people are randomly losing their bank accounts for spurious reasons.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2023, 09:58:17 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on October 09, 2023, 09:53:39 pmPrecisely!Such random acts will become even more incomprehensible and un-challengeable when Artificial Idiocy technology is even more widely used.Since "unbanking" has affected national politicians, they have quickly acted to prevent themselves from becoming "unbanked".

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2023, 10:11:06 pm
content: Quote from: tszaboo on October 09, 2023, 08:47:44 pmNo I do not live in Australia, but many in this thread seem to want me to be forced to change my ways.I snort at those who mock me.I find it amusing here when those ahead of me in the grocery checkout aisle take a much longer time to pay on-line than it takes me to pay cash.(Of course, those who pay by check take even longer.)

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2023, 10:53:50 pm
content: QuoteAint that the truth.first comes the look of surprise that they've spent so much and need to actual pay,followed by a frantic search through bags,purse ,pram,trolley,pockets for the payment device,then the wait for things to connect followed by another attempt to get the 2 devices to talk to each other before discovering there over the contactless limit and need to remember there pin,but no rush the cashier first has to cancel the contactless transaction.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2023, 10:57:17 pm
content: Very much the same in this country!

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2023, 11:02:38 pm
content: Quote from: TimFox on October 09, 2023, 10:11:06 pmWhat kind of antique validation systems do your stores use? There are places in the UK where a card takes 30s to validate a transaction, like its some 1980s dial up terminal. Those are used in places with infrequent transactions. However, in high traffic places, like supermarkets, where the transaction time really matters, it only takes a second or two, especially for tap and go transactions, where I don't even need to tap in a PIN.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2023, 11:03:46 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on October 09, 2023, 11:02:38 pmSimilar to the ones used in themadhippy's country.I'm sure they passed the testing at the system manufacturer, but the real world is different.

author: David_AVD
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2023, 11:14:56 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on October 09, 2023, 09:19:35 pmI have no idea which part of my reply you're referring to.Are you saying the blind can't use credit cards but they could use cheques?

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2023, 11:22:59 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on October 09, 2023, 11:02:38 pmLatency in increased where the terminal has to make a connection to something that will authorise the transaction. Connections via a cell phone make that particularly slow and annoyimg.Latency is decreased where the merchant decides to "self authorise" a transaction without involving another part of the astoundingly complex (and expensive!) payments ecosystem. Supermarkets probably use a very local (=fast) algorithm like "PIN OK" and "previously used in this store without problem" therefore we'll assume it is OK this time".So having good infrastructure isn't the source of the speed, rather avoiding using the infrastructure is the key speedup.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2023, 11:27:47 pm
content: Quote from: David_AVD on October 09, 2023, 11:14:56 pmThe attitude that because some old people use newer tech, those that can't are somehow at fault - and can therefore be discounted and can be ignored.

author: David_AVD
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2023, 11:32:39 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on October 09, 2023, 11:27:47 pmNo, that's you projecting that story line. I was merely pointing out that age / generation is not a general barrier. You're certainly getting your exorcise, jumping to conclusions.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 09, 2023, 11:34:24 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on October 09, 2023, 01:29:44 pmAll of these sound less like "use cases" and more like excuses used by stubborn people who are resistant to change, as multiple, better solutions exist for each of these. I won't address all of them as I'm sure if you were faced with any one of these problems, you'd be able to find a suitable solution tomorrow.The whole "paper trail" argument is moot. Cheques are no different to doing a bank transfer now. The withdrawal/deposit still occur in the digital realm and appear on the statement/transaction record. Cheques are just an "analog" disruption to what is already a digital solution. You're just adding a lengthy step in the middle; Going from digital to analog back to digital again.In my experience, all the banks I've banked with allow customers to access up to 10 years' worth of transaction statements, instantly, online. If you need older, the bank can retrieve that for you. Most banks will also send out paper statements, if requested. Besides all that, you yourself can elect to keep all the paper trails you want by simply printing them yourself.Evidence of money and proof of transactions extend far beyond a cheque stub these days, and have done for decades.

author: David_AVD
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2023, 11:38:24 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on October 09, 2023, 11:22:59 pmThat's not been my experience as both a consumer or as a seller. Our old terminal was dial-up, but that was many years ago and it took about 30 seconds to approve / decline.It was replaced with a LAN version, then most recently a 4G version. Now most transactions take about 5 - 10 seconds I'd say without timing it. Me keying in the amount and the customer tapping their card takes as much time as the authorisation.

author: AndyBeez
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2023, 11:42:54 pm
content: Anyone paying in crypto?

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 09, 2023, 11:46:36 pm
content: Quote from: AndyBeez on October 09, 2023, 11:42:54 pmMaybe 10 years ago.

author: David_AVD
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2023, 11:57:29 pm
content: Quote from: AndyBeez on October 09, 2023, 11:42:54 pmI saw some news the other day:"Honda has announced a groundbreaking partnership with FCF Pay to accept cryptocurrency payments for their products."

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2023, 12:27:10 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on October 09, 2023, 11:34:24 pm10 years isn't enough.I know that here HMRC (Revenue and Customs) can demand paperwork (w.r.t. probate and inheritance tax) from 20 years ago. Banks certainly don't keep statements available that long.When daughter went to university I went and looked at my bank statements from when I was at university. I was able to see that her income-vs-expenditure was very similar to mine, with the exception of the "new" tuition fees. That gave us both the good feeling that she should be able to manage; she did. other timescales are 4 years for genuine mistakes, 6 years for carelessness, 12 years for “an offshore matter or offshore transfer”, 20 years for deliberate tax evasion

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2023, 12:31:20 am
content: Quote from: David_AVD on October 09, 2023, 11:32:39 pmHere's the bit you conveniently snipped in order to make that claim....Quote from: David_AVD on October 09, 2023, 09:12:31 pmThe relevant proverb is"The race does not always go to the fastest, but that's the way to bet".

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 10, 2023, 01:30:33 am
content: Quote from: tggzzz on October 10, 2023, 12:27:10 amAgain, this comes down to the individual. I can't speak for banks in the UK, but I know for certain that Australian banks keep transaction records, at least in my case, way back to when the account was first opened, which was far longer than 10 years.If you believe this is a limitation for you, then what's stopping you from storing/scanning/saving records yourself? They are all available. If it's a requirement for taxation auditing, you should be keeping appropriate records already, if you aren't, that sounds like a "you problem".I see this as a secondary issue, not one about phasing out an old payment method. As I mentioned earlier, other options exist, it just requires some individuals to change the way they do things, as opposed to this mentality of "this is the way I've done things for 50 years, I'm not changing now".

author: David_AVD
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2023, 01:57:13 am
content: Quote from: tggzzz on October 10, 2023, 12:31:20 amDamn, you got me (not). I should know better than to feed to trolls. lol

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2023, 02:59:54 am
content: Quote from: tggzzz on October 09, 2023, 11:22:59 pmEr, no. I've accidentally let my current account run to zero a couple of times, and the supermarket rejected my payment in a second or two. I went to my phone, moved more money into my current account, reran the payment after the minute or two which that took, and it went through.

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2023, 04:32:22 am
content: Quote from: jonpaul on October 09, 2023, 05:14:38 pmQuote from: Halcyon on October 09, 2023, 11:34:24 pmPhysical check/cheque plus the transaction records kept by the bank is both convenient and definitive.On one occasion, my "auto club" (road side assistant) claims I did not paid the annual club fee. After multiple phone calls failed to resolve the problem, I went to the bank. The bank faxed them front and back of the check image confirming that it matches the bank's record of transaction -- the back of the check has the endorsement and the date and bank id where the auto-club deposited the payment. There is no more argument. They credited my payment.On another occasion, I had to pay a "pre-payment" during pre-admission tests (usually a week before admission to hospital for non-emergency)... Long story short, they billed me again -- not a small amount, surgery is not cheap.- I contested, they want proof of payment ...- I forwarded the pre-payment receipt email they send me (containing the jpg image of receipt) back to them.- They say "any body can cut and paste, show me your credit card statement...- So I show them the credit card statement showing the charge on my card matching the emailed receipt.- They say: "...you might have rejected the charge..."- So I show them the following month's credit card receipt - no credit for rejected chargesThat went on for over 6 months before final resolution to my favor.I suspect the problem started because the patient was my wife and not me. When I made the pre-payment, somehow it was credited to me as a new future-patient and not my wife (then current patient with an established account). Then to complicate matter, they were acquired by and merged with another hospital around that time.I don't trust digital records kept by others.I suspect the hospital never exported the old database records to the new hospital's system. We used to be able to logon to the old hospital's site to view prior stuff done like visits, blood test results, pathology reports, so on. Post merger, the new logon has nothing prior -- she is a new patient.Good that I saved the pdf of the most important things. In a discussion me and my wife had with the physician, I was able to show her (the physician) a print of the old cat-scan pathology report so as to point out certain changes. That a cat-scan was done 3 or 4 years ago was unknown to the physician. Seeing that printout, she (the physician) went to another room (I assume to access the old system), came back with more details on that cat-scan. We were all glad I had that old printout. Now we have an old cat scan to compare to the new.One can be too easily erased when one's life has no physical evidence of existence.

author: DimitriP
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2023, 05:10:59 am
content: QuoteI don't trustdigitalrecordskeptbyothersThere you go, I fixed itSelf sufficient record keeping may look like paranoia to others, but it's prudence and readiness for when Murphy shows up!

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2023, 06:32:46 am
content: Certainly, actually a bank not keeping records for longer than a certain time would be a feature for me, not a problem.The two banks I use allow to download your transaction records over a certain period in CSV and other formats. Just download that, keep it yourself and you're all set.

author: David_AVD
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2023, 07:22:13 am
content: From my perspective it seems like some of the "cheques are better than other payments" cases from the USA are indicative of USA banking issues in general that should be fixed ?

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2023, 09:18:53 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on October 10, 2023, 01:30:33 amIt is indeed tangential to the issue of cheques.Banks might or might not keep records for 50 years, but I'll bet it would be impossible to access them. I recently closed an executor account. The bank gave us a ZIP file of transactions, and now we can't access the statements online. Unsurprisingly we had anticipated that, and downloaded the PDFs before closing the account.A relatively small number of people can't change the way they do things, for various reasons. Just saying "tough, I don't need it, sod off" is unacceptably inhumane. An analogous situation over here is that when "shared space streets" were introduced, they exclude blind people. Why? Because their guide (seeing-eye) dogs and long sticks require kerbs. An official response was "re-train the guide dogs", even though that is impossible. As a result regulations have been tightened to make shared space streets difficult to implement.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2023, 09:24:02 am
content: Quote from: coppice on October 10, 2023, 02:59:54 am"One swallow does not make it summer".I've never experienced any of that, but then I use a credit card not a debit card.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2023, 09:46:33 am
content: Let's sum up this thread...I don't use cheques, so they are uselessI don't use cheques, so neither should youI don't need to use cheques, so there are no cases in which other people might need to use themI use expensive and fragile technology for banking, so you should toocheques are expensive to process:per cheque - no figures givenin aggregate for all cheques - no figures givenrelative to other payment mechanisms - no figures givenrelative to the other expenses required in bankingdue to fraud - no figures given, either for cheque fraud or for frauds not involving cheques (Social engineering? What's that?)people that use cheques can be discounted and ignored, since they are old/inflexible/whateverThose points are either unproven or morally and ethically repugnant.I was taught to help and look after the less able and fortunate in society. Unfortunately the bastard libertarian "screw you, I'm alright" mindset has become dominant.And we'll ignore thereal financial benefitsthat CEOs and shareholders will get by removing cheques. I wonder why the banks don't mention those when they propose removing cheques?

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2023, 11:53:50 am
content: so if cheques disappear what are all the lottery and competition winners going to hold up for publicity? a comically over size screen showing an electronic transfer?

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2023, 01:59:25 pm
content: Quote from: themadhippy on October 10, 2023, 11:53:50 amOooh! I hadn't thought of that use caseIn other news a child has discovered that floppy disks are made to look like a wordprocessor's "save"hieroglyphicon, but has yet to realise why you dial telephone numbers.

author: PwrElectronics
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2023, 04:44:36 pm
content: I still use checks for a few monthly bills paid through the mail. Some of those bills I setup for auto-pay due to the business poor habits of sending out the paper bill in the mail that would not get to me quickly and the due dates being too close that I was getting hit with late fees too often. For "reasons" the US mail is getting slower in some areas.I probably have not written one on the spot at a store for several years. Some stores no longer will accept checks, only credit card or cash.My observation is the folks writing a check at the till in a store tend to be elderly (age 70s or older).

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2023, 05:27:56 pm
content: Quote from: PwrElectronics on October 10, 2023, 04:44:36 pmHere that was only done with a "cheque guarantee card", which guaranteed the retailer would receive their money. They were phased out in 2011.

author: Bicurico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2023, 08:11:58 pm
content: I used cheques in the past when buying or selling a house.The cheques are authenticated by the respective bank, warranting that the respective funds have been captivated.Paying in cash is not allowed for payments over 2000 Euro (here in Portugal) and hence these cheques are the only real secure way of transfering funds against a signature in the ownership papers.Electronic transfers take one day so seller and buyer would have to trust a lot in using this.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2023, 08:23:57 pm
content: Similarly here in the US, when going to the real-estate transaction "closing", where all papers are exchanged between parties, the required payment (from me, the purchaser) had to be a "certified check", where the bank certified that sufficient funds were in my account, and sequestered them until the check was presented for payment.They told me to bring one written for a certain value, and then gave me a normal check for the relatively small amount owed back to me.A "cashier's check", on the other hand, is one that I buy from the bank, which issues it against its own account.Both are valid on their face, and difficult to fix if you should lose it.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2023, 12:17:08 am
content: Quote from: Bicurico on October 10, 2023, 08:11:58 pmFor big amounts a direct account to account transfer seems to be the usual thing these days. Most people with on-line banking can do that directly from their phone. In the UK you now get alerts from your bank for big amounts, to confirm its really you, and that you aren't taking this action under duress. Then it goes through on the spot, and you can check with the other party that it arrived.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2023, 12:57:58 am
content: Again contrary to cheques, direct bank transfers are always limited in amount per transaction or per day (depending on your bank and conditions). This amount varies *a lot* depending on the bank, freakingly so even. For my 2 banks, the default max is from 1 to 10. Yeah.Sure you can always ask to get a higher max, permanently or temporarily, but this is often not modifiable via your bank app (contrary to your cards for which you can now do this with most banks within at least a certain range). So you have (usually) to call your banker. Very nice.This is something you usually don't realize until you, precisely, need to transfer a "big" amount.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2023, 01:13:05 am
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on October 11, 2023, 12:57:58 amThe daily limits are usually adjustable. I set my daily limit on line to an extremely high value in preparation to buy this house. At the right time I transferred hundreds of thousands of pounds to our solicitor, without any other preparation. It was immediately in their account. I then set the daily limit lower, to reduce the risk of anything bad happening.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2023, 01:17:15 am
content: Quote from: coppice on October 11, 2023, 01:13:05 amThat sounds nice. Your bank is probably better than mine. I bet there is a significant difference depending on the country anyway.

author: jfiresto
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2023, 05:52:53 am
content: Quote from: Bicurico on October 10, 2023, 08:11:58 pmHas it been so lately? When I push electronic transfers from one German bank to another, it just takes a few seconds for the money to appear in the receiving account – even without paying for a real time transfer. U.S. transfers seem to wait until the next batch job runs. Combine the two and you can watch banks create and destroy money – and be electronically wealthier for a few hours.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2023, 09:56:57 am
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on October 11, 2023, 01:17:15 amThere are probably country specific regulations affecting this, which may or may not have caught up with current technology.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2023, 10:00:11 am
content: Quote from: jfiresto on October 11, 2023, 05:52:53 amHe might be talking about international transfers. If you make a SWIFT transfer to a bank account in another country its usually constrained to only go out during the working hours of the source bank, and only appears in the target account during working hours of that bank. So, they are often a 24 hour operation for accounts across time zones.

author: Dan123456
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2023, 10:28:16 am
content: Quote from: coppice on October 11, 2023, 10:00:11 amIn Aus it often can take a day or two to transfer between banks domestically!The common reason I hear for this is that the banks hold the funds in their own account so they can make money on the interest of it or what not but not sure if that is just a conspiracy theory

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 11, 2023, 11:32:25 am
content: Quote from: Dan123456 on October 11, 2023, 10:28:16 amThat's old-school. Most banks now connect to NPP either via Osko (or there is another system which I forget the name of). Inter-bank transfers are usually instantaneous these days. There are still a few banks out there dragging their heels with the old system. Even between my bank (Macquarie), that doesn't use Osko to a bank that does, it takes seconds.

author: Dan123456
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2023, 12:34:12 pm
content: Quote from: Halcyon on October 11, 2023, 11:32:25 amIndeed!Maybe their banks have caught up in the last few years but know in the past when my mum would send me money at Christmas or if my ex would transfer cash or what not it could often take a up to a day or twoI always figured it was because we were with different banks as transferring between my own accounts online has always been instant!

author: Bicurico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2023, 02:38:56 pm
content: Quote from: jfiresto on October 11, 2023, 05:52:53 amIn Portugal, for private consumers, the bank only offers "next work day" transfers.Transfers done on an ATM can be cancelled within a given time window (not sure how to do it), so I was advised to never rely on just the receipt of the person send me the money.In fact, here in Portugal, I am not aware of any other secure form of payment in a transaction between two persons, other than a bank certified cheque or cash money.All other forms of payment require some degree of trust.EDIT: We do have instant payment forms, but those are limited in the amount of money you can transfer.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2023, 05:04:05 pm
content: I have seen a lot of "I like this, so it is better" in this thread.Example: Those advocating smartphone apps for payment over smartcards and the like, citing speed and ease of use.I personally don't see how authorizing via the smartphone is faster than tapping a smartcard on the reader. Unless you have set up the app to just authorize any requested payment within the nearfield zone, which is a security nightmare.With respect to the original topic, I started out many decades ago writing checks and using cash for most transactions. Credit cards existed, but were mostly used by gas stations and restaurants, at least at my end of the income distribution. I used them primarily as an interest free short term loan. Back when interest rates were in double digits that actually made sense. As Visa and Mastercard grew I used them more often, but in the first decade or so they weren't faster than checks, since the vendor had to drag out their imprint machine, impress the embossed information on the card on the multi-layer carbon receipt and then get them signed by the borrower. Credit card processing grew faster over time as the magnetic strip began to be used in POS terminals. Then slowed back down big time when the chip cards were introduced. For reasons unknown to me those took a long time to process. Finally better coms and better software speeded those up and today's "Tap" cards are faster than even cash. Particularly with younger cashiers who have little clue how to make change. Somewhere in this process my check usage dropped to paying monthly charges, particularly on the credit cards. Then switched most of those monthly charges to electronic transfers from one of the credit cards to take advantage of the cash back privileges. I (actually my wife, since she holds the checkbook) write a small number of checks a month to pay the credit card bills. We have chosen not to handle those payments electronically for two reasons. First, we still don't fully trust the system to be error free, or at least fully recoverable from errors. And perhaps more important, it forces us to look at these bills monthly. It would be very easy to ignore the balances if everything was auto-payed. And writing a check is less annoying than going through all of the security verifications required to do the transfers electronically manually. I am quite sure of this because occasionally when we are on holiday we have to do it.Checks are now processed much differently than before. When I started they were obviously processed manually with rubber stamps from both the recipients bank and my bank on the checks which were returned after processing with the monthly statement. Later those stamps disappeared as more of the processing process was automated. My guess from looking at the returned checks was that the recipients bank still manually read the written information on the check, and that information was then printed (in magnetic ink in one of the machine readable fonts) on the back where the rubber stamps used to go. All subsequent processing automated. Still later, the banks stopped sending the processed checks back, instead sending only photographs. The photos are done by machinery. All this explanation to support my opinion that the costs of processing checks is minor, and mostly a sunk cost. Even maintenance costs should be minimal for quite a while since the declining volume of checks allows malfunction machinery to be retired rather than repaired. The checks I use were once freely supplied by the bank. That ended long ago. So that cost isn't an issue for the banks.There has been much argument about transaction costs. Here in the US the best evidence of these costs come from gasoline retailors, who routinely advertise two prices for their products, one when paid cash and one for those using credit cards. The difference is typically between three and four percent. Some retailers do the same with similar percentage costs indicated. My banks have never charged for cashing checks payable to me. In the last few years I can do that via my smartphone, no need to visit a bank. It is common for banks to be reluctant to cash checks for non-account holders, mostly because of the fraud exposure. Sometimes that reluctance takes the form of a fee, more often just a refusal to perform the transaction. The checks that I still use cost me about three cents.I do a minor amount of selling both locally and on line. I have looked into what it would take to accept credit card payments. Various options are available. None I found were free, and at my sales volume I never found it worthwhile to sign up. There are many direct transfer options, and I have both used them and received payments via them. None of them were free. The costs are generally higher than the cost for me to write a check. The check, envelope and stamp to mail it cost under a dollar, so it doesn't take a very large transaction to make the cost of the e-transaction higher.There are still use cases beyond preference for check usage. In rural areas internet service is intermittent or non-existent. Having commerce shut down when the internet goes out makes no sense for the merchant or for the consumer needing a tank of gas or milk and diapers for the baby. Maybe Starlink will fix this, but it hasn't closed all the gaps yet.I will echo others on this thread. I use checks less and less, but still find them appropriate for some cases. I would dislike losing them as an option, but the world wouldn't end for me. And I don't see why those who are all in for various e-transfer methods are in favor of removing the option. Excepting those who will profit from that elimination of course, but I doubt if many on this thread are in that class.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2023, 05:40:17 pm
content: Quote from: CatalinaWOW on October 11, 2023, 05:04:05 pmToo damn right. Often with "it is better for you too" stated implicitly or explicitlyQuoteYes indeed.That's my presumption, and I have not seen anything to contradict it.QuoteIn the UK most personal current account banking transactions are free, including cash and cheques. Credit card costs are invisible, and debit card transactions are free.From what I have seen banks charge businesses 2-4% for both cash and credit card transactions.QuoteIt is notable thatthe claimed "excessive" costs of cheques are never quantified, let alone compared with other costswhere the allegedly "saved" money ends up is never mentioned. I rather doubt it will be in my pocketthe irreduceable corner-case use-cases are ignored, and dismissed as rare and unimportant and luddite. That's morally and ethically repugnant.So, just where would all the savings end up?So, what would the numerical savings be (absolute, compared to other costs)? Numbers, not adjectives.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2023, 07:11:32 pm
content: In the US for personal (non-business) checking accounts, it is very common that the bank charges no fee to customers that meet certain criteria, especially if they have a direct-deposit set up from an employer or pension.

author: AndyBeez
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2023, 08:29:38 pm
content: The raised numbers on payment cards are disappearing. They are no longer needed as the United States has finally ceased using carbon impression foils - remember them from the early 1980s? The same might happen for the magnetic stripe, but using PIN or RFID readers will cost the Ma & Pa stores far too many dollars to convert to these new fangled machines that don't have mice running around inside them. So card skimmers still have another 25 years.Missing the raised numbers is actually rather unhelpful for people who are partially sighted or, just grew up with the texture and feel of a bank card. Another trend for trendy banks is to make all of their bank cards black. Not good in limited lighting or on bright days in wallets or handbags. Worse, there are no numbers on these 'hip' cards, instead there is a small logo and tiny text saying 'credit' or 'debit'. Clearly these are designed by millennial nerfs who just ask Siri to Apple Pay for everything.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 11, 2023, 10:55:13 pm
content: Quote from: CatalinaWOW on October 11, 2023, 05:04:05 pmFor me, it's less about speed (we're talking a second or two difference) and more about the convenience of not having to carry a wallet around anymore. Either way, I usually have my phone or card ready to go even before the cashier has pushed the "make terminal work" button. It's just less crap to carry around in my pockets, lose, forget, misplace, etc...There are pros and cons to each approach. The phone is more secure for a start (no one can just pick it up and go spending without my password or fingerprint) and because I use Google Wallet, it uses a "virtual" card number (i.e.: My actual linked card number is never revealed). It also means it can't be skimmed, copied or read, even if I lost my phone.Of course, cards don't require charging or power, and will continue to work even after they've been through the washing machine (my wallet as been washed a handful of times). That being said, because of my own habits, I've never been caught somewhere with a dead phone. Worst case scenario, I have a charger that lives in the car if I was desperate for a charge.At the day, each to their own. Taking away cheque payments still leaves a handful of other options available for fast and secure payments. I'm the last person to push people onto "apps" when they don't want to.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2023, 11:29:54 pm
content: Quote from: Halcyon on October 11, 2023, 10:55:13 pmMy cellphone survives being in my trouser pocket next to my keys, and being dropped 20ft/6m onto concrete. Based on what I've seen with my daughter's smartphone and a tablet, I doubt any smartphone would survive a day with me.I don't need to carry around a "heavy paperback book" with my cellphone either.QuoteCheques USPs are unrelated to speed, so that's a strawman argument.A contactless payment credit/debit card is sufficient for my fast/convenient payment needs. As is cash. Just come back from a week in Meereen; paid everything (that wasn't prepaid) in cash, didn't even need to use cards.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 11, 2023, 11:59:08 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on October 11, 2023, 11:29:54 pmIt's not a strawman argument. I wasn't comparing the use of cheques for everyday payments to credit/debit cards, rather it's just a method to transfer money between accounts. My point was, if you got rid of cheques tomorrow, there is a handful of other options which could easily (and have for 99% of people and businesses) take its place.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2023, 12:02:53 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on October 11, 2023, 10:55:13 pmThat may work in your use case. Here, I have to have my driver's license in my possession when operating a motor vehicle, health care providers require insurance cards, and there are a handful of other things that really make a wallet necessary. If you can do without, great and good on you. Again I have no issue with how others organize their financial lives, just don't want them organizing mine.I am also like tggzzz. My lifestyle is really hard on smartphones. Over the last five years I have broken one badly enough to require repairs three times, and twice badly enough that replacement was necessary. That is even with use of an bulky protective case. An expensive accessory under these conditions, but I find it useful enough to be worth it. I can't really depend on it for financial access though.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2023, 12:36:28 am
content: You don't need a wallet for cards. Just something to store the cards in like a small card holder.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2023, 02:38:08 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on October 12, 2023, 12:36:28 amIf you have the card holder the smart phone isn't an advantage. Card holders are available which hold cash also (they are then a compact wallet, just missing the baby pictures and other cruft that wallets sometimes accumulate). So now it sounds like not carrying a wallet was not a material benefit, just a justification. Which is fine. Again, you are living your life the way you want to. No need to rationalize it.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2023, 09:39:10 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on October 11, 2023, 11:59:08 pmSo is cash.Your point was, ahem, not clearly made when you wroteQuote from: Halcyon on October 11, 2023, 10:55:13 pmQuoteNot easily, for some people and uses. Your attitude of saying "tough shit" to those that really need cheques is morally and ethically repugnant. 99% of people aren't blind (or deaf, or...), so I presume you think it would be acceptable to remove expensive support given to them.Please produce some figures about how much would be saved, and where the savings would end up(e.g. CEOs and shareholders).

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 12, 2023, 10:01:43 am
content: Quote from: tggzzz on October 12, 2023, 09:39:10 amIt's not "my attitude", it's what the consumers are demanding. You've not demonstrated one scenario where there isn't a suitable replacement... not one. To say it's morally and ethically repugnant (without explaining why) is a bit of a cheap shot. Take a look at the figures yourself. Very few people use cheques in Australia, it's down in the noise. Secondly, explain to me how a blind person would write a cheque, or even cash one without going to great lengths? Seems like the perfect use-case for more modern systems if I ever saw one.You're also mistaken that this move is being driven by the banks (and those fat CEOs), it's not. This is being driven by the Australian government. Most banks started phasing out cheques long ago because there simply isn't the demand for this method anymore. The cost to banks is negligible. I'm sure they spend more at their staff Christmas party than the fees they collect from customers.If you'll also refer right back to the first post (and the purpose of this thread), it's specifically about consumer habits in Australia. It's not about "Why the US should give up cheques because the rest of the world is".I think if we pander to your kind of mentality, we'd still be paying taxes to maintain the telegraph networks, and people would still be using leaded petrol.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2023, 10:21:07 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on October 12, 2023, 10:01:43 amReallty?Customersaredemandingsomething they don't use is removed? I think not.QuoteSeveral people have done just that, repeatedly.QuoteWhat figures? I haven't seen any stating the financial costs and savings. Percentages of something unspecified aren't sufficient.Provide monetary costs (AUD is fine), and I'll look at them.QuoteI didn't make myself clear.I was thinking about removing the requirements for braille signs, kerbs, tactile pavements, exceptions for guide dogs, etc. After allthoseare expensive and 99% of people don't use them.There are analogous issue for deaf people, invalid/invalid people, etc.QuoteAt last recognition of thelackof cost to the banks! That's a useful about-face.I doubt that it is driven by the government; what business is it of theirs?More likely the government sets regulatory requirements, and the banks have been quietly pushing for those requirements to be relaxed.QuoteAnalogies often lead to more heat than light. Or is there some way that cheques are damaging childrens' brains?

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2023, 10:24:55 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on October 12, 2023, 10:21:07 amNo, that's exactly what it is. The government is aiming to have no cheques used within their systems by some future date. Right there in the OP:Quote from: Halcyon on October 08, 2023, 05:59:13 amIt is almost certainly just to streamline and reduce costs for the government entities producing and accepting cheques. Push that all to fully digital bank transfers and in person card transactions.I like this, while depositing a cheque as an individual isn't too hard, the bizarre ways some government functions expect to be paid (cheque, money order, cash in person) can be a pain as a consumer. So if they will streamline away from paper/manual methods that will be an improvement for me.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2023, 10:27:59 pm
content: Quote from: Someone on October 12, 2023, 10:24:55 pmI may have misunderstood the original post (not well worded): does the government of Australia mean only to stop writing checks?Will they accept checks in payment of taxes, etc.?Will the Australian banking system continue to allow the use of checks?

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 12, 2023, 11:38:09 pm
content: Quote from: TimFox on October 12, 2023, 10:27:59 pmBoth. This is the original announcement:https://ministers.treasury.gov.au/ministers/jim-chalmers-2022/media-releases/modernising-payments-infrastructure-phasing-out-chequesI'm not aware of any Government departments that are still using cheques, but there may still be some stragglers, particularly when it comes to internal matters.But independently of this, consumer demand (or lack thereof) has caused banks to stop offering to chequing facilities on some new accounts as early as this year. Whilst consumers will still be able to deposit cheques (for a fee), they won't be able to order cheque books. Some banks don't offer cheque accounts at all.As I mentioned earlier, cheques made up only 0.2% of non-cash payment methods in 2021-2022 and is the single payment method that is rapidly declining.Cost is cited as one reason and whilst I don't know what the true cost of processing a cheque is, it's not zero. Some of this cost is passed onto the consumer. There are many more pitfalls into cheque use then there are positives, that's not an opinion, that's the nature of the technology.As I mentioned earlier, why pay to keep an old and dying technology alive? It makes no sense to me. I used Telex, Fax and old analog phone lines as prime examples of that. I also don't understand peoples' reluctance to use alternate technologies. "Because that's the way we've always done it" is not a valid excuse in my books and something I'm used to hearing from old dinosaurs in inefficient government agencies.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2023, 11:53:02 pm
content: Quote from: Someone on October 12, 2023, 10:24:55 pmThere is a big difference between the Australian government phasing outtheir usage of cheques(the sentence you quoted), vs the Australian government phasing outall cheques in Austrialia(the sentence after that, which you snipped).QuoteI've no problem with an institution stopping using cheques. My objection is to an instution stoppingeverybodyusing cheques.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2023, 12:05:58 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on October 12, 2023, 11:38:09 pmAll processing costs are non-zero.All processing costs are passed onto the consumer, directly or indirectly.Hence that contention doesn't hold water.Who will pocket any saved costs? The consumer? Fat chance.QuoteWell, no."Authorised push payment fraud" ismajorandincreasing fast. That ismucheasier to perpetrate with "modern technology" than with cheques, because everything happens faster.QuoteYou have been given some use cases. You have repeatedly refused to consider them valid, merely because they are not relevant to you."There's none so deaf as them's won't hear".

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2023, 12:45:23 am
content: Quote from: tggzzz on October 12, 2023, 11:53:02 pmORLY?Quote from: Halcyon on October 08, 2023, 05:59:13 amNowhere is that saying there is some mandate from the government for banks or the general population to stop using cheques for their own purposes. The government is discontinuing their use, and banks have wound down their offerings.Full quote you say I'm misrepresenting...... yet nothing that says what you are pushing. Perhaps if the text was so obvious you would have quoted it, rather than just throwing cheap FUD.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 13, 2023, 01:59:04 am
content: No one is misrepresenting anything? I'm merely reporting on what was announced by the government and is being widely reported by the RBA, banks and the media.I'm not going to spoon-feed sources and quotes to everyone, you guys are welcome to do your own homework if you want to learn more.I was simply opening the discussion since I was actually quite surprised that this hasn't happened sooner and to get a feel for how others felt, particularly in countries where the banking systems perhaps aren't quite as modern.A few of you seem to be shooting the messenger here, like as if I was material in the whole push to get rid of outdated banking processes. Likewise there are some people who carry on, and act as if their opinion is more correct than everyone else's and alternatives don't matter.Personally, even if I was a cheque user, I'd sooner be seeking alternatives rather than bitching about something that is inevitable.

author: David_AVD
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2023, 09:30:16 am
content: There's been plenty of time for the users of cheques to start using the alternatives such as credit / debit card, direct debit, direct deposit, BPAY, etc.I can't think of a single person I know who's ever mentioned in the last 15 years that they prefer cheques to any of the above.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2023, 09:40:15 am
content: Quote from: tggzzz on October 13, 2023, 12:05:58 amCompetitive banking market so yes, the consumer does benefit from lowered cost. That means more benefits, higher savings interest, more ATMs available for free, etc.At least in the UK the banking market has never been so competitive... This is good.Many of the smaller banks around here don't take cheques at all. The larger ones require you to post them in, because there are no branches any more... This is a problem for those without access/ability to use technology for sure.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2023, 09:55:10 am
content: Quote from: tom66 on October 13, 2023, 09:40:15 amGiven how the banksdon'tpass on base rate increases to savers, I doubt they would pass on (?very small?) savings from phasing out cheques.Me a cynic? Shurely shome mishtake.QuoteThere are also quite a few (1.2million in 2020 ) people without bank accounts at all. I don't know how they would receive electronic payments without a bank account. I presume that they take cheques to high street "cheque cashing" services and probably get less than the cheques face value. Yet another way the poor are screwed by the systems.https://www.ukfinance.org.uk/news-and-insight/blogs/financial-inclusion-and-access-banking-services

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2023, 10:17:07 am
content: Quote from: tggzzz on October 13, 2023, 09:55:10 amWell, you're banking with the wrong people. I get 5% on £5k in savings with a major high street bank and 4.82% on the rest with another provider. And I can getSONIA bondsat 5.15% via Vanguard, the interest on which is tax free. The base rate is 5.25% right now. So to say they aren't passing on the higher interest rate situation is wrong, but you do have to be prepared to shop around.Quote from: tggzzz on October 13, 2023, 09:55:10 amThe problem with people not having access to banks is more related to being NFA (no fixed address) or having no form of ID. To get a basic bank account in the UK, you need:- A fixed address (which a credit reference agency can find, so other bills need to go there, at least for last 6 months)- Two forms of ID (passport and drivers licence typically)- No previous history of fraud or criminal activity involving money in the last 6 years (CIFAS marker)This is particularly an issue because to rent a place you need a bank account, to get a job you need a bank account, applying for IDs requires money and often a fixed address, so the whole system is kind of self sustaining in terms of homelessness and lack of access to banking.It is a problem a few banks are trying to solve with other charities, for instance HSBC offers a no-fixed-address account with some limited features. But you need a homelessness charity to sponsor you as they are representing you to the bank as trustworthy (not sure there's a cost to them but presumably the deal is they don't send any old sod their way).But cheques really have nothing to do with this problem. If you don't have a bank account you can't accept cheques and while cheque cashing places do exist many of them have similar requirements in terms of ID and they tend to take a steep fee.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2023, 10:38:41 am
content: Quote from: tom66 on October 13, 2023, 10:17:07 amI see many high street banks advertising high interest rates, but typically on only a very limited amount of money, e.g. monthly savings of £200, or £5 max.NS&I (i.e. the government) withdrew its 6.5% rate yesterday, IIRC because so many people had jumped on it.I've been getting ~10% recently on about half my savings. No, you can't get such accounts any more. Wonder why.QuoteIt is relevant to the availability of cheque facilities, since no electronic mechanism is available to such people.Yes, it is a vicious circle (almost) without end. The "no ID and no records" is a particular issue for people coming to the UK to work or study.Since Halcyon is convinced cheques are unnecessary, I wonder how Australia gets around such issues. Historically they haven't worried about their Abos.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2023, 10:47:26 am
content: Quote from: tggzzz on October 13, 2023, 10:38:41 amMoneySavingExpert's guideis quite good and summarises the best offers right now.Suffice to say if you had half a million quid you'd still be able to get around 5% on it by spreading it across 3-4 banks. Of course, at that level of capital you'd probably have investment management.You're not going to get much better from a bank than the 5.25% that the BoE offers because that's essentially risk-free, the BoE is always going to pay that, so why would they give you more on your money when they have to deal with ordinary consumer headaches (fraud, customer service, marketing etc.)Looks like NS&I offers a fixed 5.7% for 3 year product still, competitive with commercial offerings. But you'd need to lock your cash away for 3 years - not always appealing (edit: and it's taxable.)

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 14, 2023, 12:33:08 am
content: Quote from: David_AVD on October 13, 2023, 09:30:16 amWhilst this is just a sample size of one, my 93 year old neighbour hasn't been a user of cheques for years. Although she stops short of banking apps on her phone, she still uses internet banking, BPAY etc... to pay bills and transfer money around for three reasons: It's free, it's quick and it doesn't involve her driving anywhere due to limited mobility.Based on my observations, I think older people are more adaptive than we give them credit. It's this current generation of young people who tend to be more stubborn and scream "anxiety" when they have to make some changes in their life.Quote from: tggzzz on October 13, 2023, 10:38:41 amThey have never been necessary for me. Same goes for the vast majority of the Australian population. What can I say? Feel free to make a counter-argument and give me one situation where cheque payments have no alternative from transferring money from A to B (and I'm not simply talking about consumer choice/stubbornness), then I'll consider changing my mind.As for those who might be homeless, or don't have all the regular ID documents, banks will typically address those on a case-by-case basis. There are mechanisms in-place to assist people who fall into those categories. You can read all about it over on Austrac's website:https://www.austrac.gov.au/business/core-guidance/customer-identification-and-verification/assisting-customers-who-dont-have-standard-forms-identification

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2023, 10:56:42 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on October 14, 2023, 12:33:08 amThe old "I'm alright Jack" and "the small minority can sod off" attitude. Morally and ethically repugnant.3% of adults in the UK don't have a bank account for one reason or another. How can they receive (or make) electronic payments?How many adults in Australia?QuoteThose are merely a fig leaf enabling the government to absolve itself of responsibility. The "encouragements" (to use the word in the document) are not requirements. As such they are will beseverelycompromised byautomated and manual systems designed only for the common easy casepoorly trained staff not knowing about how to deal with special casesindividual staff unwilling to become responsible for making a decision that turns out to have been wrongbanks that are being extra-vigilent about identification because they have previously been penalised for contravening money-laundering or anti-terrorism legislation (think HSBC)If you think those points aren't valid, then I'll point you to how poorly (to put it mildly) the UK banks deal with LPAs. Limited Powers of Attorney are the mechanism by "donors" specify trusted third parties who can operate bank accounts for the donor's benefit when the donor cannot. (Memo to self: set up an LPA stating my daughter is my attorney).So, how can those without a bank account receive benefits etc?

author: David_AVD
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2023, 10:58:36 pm
content: In Australia it appears that some banks and organisations are making it possible to open a bank account with no fixed address. There's also some ways to deal with getting physical mail too. I'm not saying it's super easy, but it's not impossible. Going from what I've read about these services, continuing the use of cheques doesn't appear to be useful for people with no fixed address. A bank account and a debit card (very minimal application process) would seem the way to go. Any government payments can go into the account and be drawn upon using the debit card or by withdrawing cash.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2023, 11:12:00 pm
content: Quote from: David_AVD on October 14, 2023, 10:58:36 pmCheques can be used by people with no fixed abode and no bank account: go and collect them and use a cheque cashing service.IMHO it remains to be seen how the bank's officers can fulfil their manyotherlegal/statutory duties while giving unidentifiable stray people bank accounts.

author: David_AVD
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2023, 02:47:10 am
content: Sure, you could find somewhere to cash the cheque, but that may not be as easy as it sounds these days.The cheque would also only be likely to be sent in the mail. In Australia it's quite unlikely that you would be handed one.Then you're back to the no fixed address issue. If you have an address, you can open a bank account and not need the cheque!Remember, I'm speaking of the situation in Australia. YMMV in your country, the the thread was about cheques in Australia.

author: jfiresto
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2023, 07:01:30 am
content: Quote from: David_AVD on October 15, 2023, 02:47:10 amI thought it wasalsoabout cheques in Australia. From the post starting the thread:Quote

author: vk4ffab
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2023, 07:18:03 am
content: Quote from: tggzzz on October 13, 2023, 10:38:41 amThey are and remain totally unnecessary in Australian society no matter what their situation, living in a remote community, homeless, limited identity documents. If one can prove identity to meet Centerlink requirements, they have enough identity to open a bank account. If one does not want to open a bank account, centerlink can issue its own debit card in the persons name. Some segments of the population are forced onto these debit cards so they can participate in our essentially cashless economy while at the same time limiting their ability to participate in the black economy of sly grog and drugs. A check is useless, i have not seen one in over 15 years about the same period of time I have not had cash in my wallet. Checks are used by scammers and cash by criminals and those wanting to be robbed.

author: vk4ffab
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2023, 07:28:14 am
content: Quote from: TimFox on October 12, 2023, 10:27:59 pmThe government announced it will stop using and accepting checks, the banks will all follow suit, my bank is not only phasing out checks, its also phasing out cash. I have not used cash in the last 15 and very little in the 5 years before that for places that had not adopted efpos yet. Now days, even flee market vendors take electronic payments. The world here has moved away from checks and is fast moving away from cash. The only people hording cash are criminals.

author: mendip_discovery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2023, 12:01:27 pm
content: My experience is I get a cheque from the MD as a bonus each year. He does this as he wants us to see it rather than it just being a surprise amount turning up in my account. But other than an occasional cheque I don't see them. My bank these days let's me photograph the cheque and its paid that way, which turns it into a digital transaction in moments.I used to get them a lot as a photographer as I didn't have card facilities and since I stopped I dont see them.But I have noticed in the UK that highstreet banks have closed to the point where the nearest bank is a 1hr journey. They tell people that people aren't using banks, but considering that banks have for years had inconvenient opening times, open after people are at work, close for lunch and close before you finish work that means 95% can't get to them and then they close the bank. The are promoting online banking services and people who can't keep up are just left to the wayside, they are in the minority anyway and will eventually die out, literally.I know the tax office are keen to have everything digital partly as it makes chasing the source of money much easier. Unless you are wealthy as which point its affordable to spend money obfuscating the transactions. Lots of trades people live with cash as much as they can as it means they can avoid paying tax and this is a key target for the tax man. Only the other day was there an article about going after tax from peoples side hustles.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2023, 12:22:24 pm
content: To me the first block that should be thrown at the face of any government that wants to use "apps" for their services (including payments of any kind) is that they would have to be forced to get everyone a smartphone. These bastards get away with the majority of people buying something on their own dime and them slowly cutting (or increasing the inconvenience of) services, conveniently forgetting they must provide it to 100% of the population. I left Brasil almost two decades ago, and now see how the government there imposes the use of "apps" for several basic services, including shutting down their existing webpages that used to provide all these in a similarly convenient way. And at the moment the current president (and his minions) are trying to curb access to finances and government services for people that don't fall in line with the official discourse (as if the past three years haven't shown us anything).Private institutions? Well, I am not in favour to force them what to do, but they will certainly lobby the government to cut a service in favour of the highest bidder of a new service or infrastructure model.Quote from: PapierzToaletowy on October 15, 2023, 08:10:50 amAnother example is a certain inconvenient part of the Canadian population that was protesting against government overreach - any electronic payment method was systematically being shut down by Trudeau and his thugs.

author: antenna
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2023, 03:49:28 pm
content: I can offer a few reasons checks are common here in the US.#1 My mom uses checks every day because she is afraid a debit card would be easily hacked/skimmed. The thing about cards in the US (not sure about the rest of the world) is that if you get your card stolen, one of two things will happen. if it is a credit card, the credit card company will hunt the crook down, usually no big deal as they are insured and have the resources and experience tracking crooks down. 2-If it was a bank debit card, upon report of a stolen card, the banks will simply turn off your card, issue you a new one, and leave the hunt for the bad guy up to you. There is very little you can do if someone steals your debit card info. And due to this, many banks (at least for the middle and lower class) will simply limit the debit card to $600 a day. Not always a problem, until you need a new oscilloscope and have toexplain to the bank why you want to spend more than $600 on your card for a day. PITA every time.#2 Many businesses still pay people with checks, especially places like scrap yards that take advantage of the time it takes for the check to be cashed and clear to verify what you scrapped wasn't stolen. They have time to cancel the check. Pawn America puts their payments on disposable cards they can call and cancel, but those kinds of "cash cards" still have scary terms to them (like using it within 90 days or it expires, or ridiculous fees).#3 Everyone charges a fee to accept cards out in the country. If I want to go to the nearest decent restaraunt in the woods and eat, there is a 3% fee to pay wth any card, debit or credit. Many places (and ATM machines) do that as well.#4 Sometimes you need to pay someone who does not accept digital payments, like Jim down the road that welds stuff, and if you find yourself in that situation without cash on hand, you need a check. I live an hour from my bank.#5 Go on wikipedia and take a look at data breaches. Every one of those massive data breaches involved the theft of personal and card data for the sole purpose of ripping peoples cards off.#6 I am tired of pulling on the card machines at the gas station worrying about card scimmers.#7 I just don't trust my entire way of life on a single piece of plastic that can get lost. How many times have you legitimately lost your wallet and had to grab some cash or a check? Happened to me twice.Ill hold back my other reasons because there are people here just waiting for an opportunity to call me a conspiracy theorist.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2023, 04:14:24 pm
content: I agree about the problems with debit cards in the US, which I consider to be a pipeline directly from my bank account.They often are granted to people whose credit record is too poor to get a credit card.The cardholder's legal protections on credit cards are much better here than for debit cards.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2023, 04:32:00 pm
content: Quote from: TimFox on October 15, 2023, 04:14:24 pmBut you pay for this protection one way or another. Upselling products with an insurance is a very lucrative business!

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2023, 04:49:36 pm
content: One place ive found cash or cheque an advantage is for deposits,from personal experience it can take the company sevral days to refund your deposit.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2023, 08:02:32 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on October 14, 2023, 11:12:00 pmYes, ultimately it's closely related to the question of cash, which is also on the verge of being obsoloted, maybe not quite as soon as cheques, but close enough.You're not going to convince people that have already embraced the new paradigm of a 100% connected, 100% dependent on this connection society. They often just see what they have to gain (the useful aspects) while ignoring what they have to lose (until they run into a situation where they'd need an alternative). Just imagine you don't have cash or cheques, what do you do when there's a grid blackout? Maybe it never happens?The question is not so much about old tech vs new tech, progress (in the true sense) vs conservatism IMHO, but more about how to leverage new tech to continue promoting resilience, adaptability and freedom.Where we are heading doesn't seem to do much good for either of these three points. It focuses on cost reduction (which still remains to be estimated all expenses considered though), security and control.Whose security by the way?

author: vk4ffab
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2023, 09:17:22 pm
content: Quote from: TimFox on October 15, 2023, 04:14:24 pmMy debit card, which is the only outward facing pipeline to my savings, only ever contains a small amount of money. Typically less than$1000, a number I could lose without it being a financial burden. I see a debit card as being the same as carrying cash, a theftable object that someone can use tap and go for $100 purchases up to the daily card limit. Everything else, is in another account that can only be accessed digitally and only i know the account credentials to access it. I have been banking that way now for close on 20 years.In Australia the major card providers have zero liability protections for card holders, so if there are fraudulent payments made from a stolen debit card, the company wears the cost, not the account holder. The exact same protections as offered on credit cards. So if i was robbed on the street for my wallet, any tap and go transactions processed by visa should be refunded. I have never had to try it out, but in theory that is how it should work.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2023, 09:25:13 pm
content: Here is a summary of the relevant differences in the US:https://www.bankrate.com/finance/credit-cards/credit-card-vs-debit-card/#howFrom that site: "Since credit cards offer fraud liability protections that debit cards do not, meaning online purchases with credit come with fewer risks."(Their grammar, not mine.)

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2023, 11:38:50 pm
content: A great many posts in this thread are of the form: "There is no use case for checks than cannot be performed by another method (usually electronic)" and then concluding that there is no use for checks.While the alternative method may be difficult for some people for some transactions, I do agree that there is nothing that checks do that cannot be done by other means. We could even go back to "Letters of Credit".But at its root the argument is much like saying there is no tune that cannot be played on a musical instrument other than a piano, and therefore pianos are unnecessary and can be eliminated without losing anything. And the argument is somewhat true. There is a rich world of music that does not involve a piano. Many people have no fondness for a piano. Pianos are large, expensive and heavy instruments. And piano usage and ownership has been declining rapidly. But the argument is intrinsically wrong. Those who like and use pianos are the ones who should decide whether they should exist and be used, not those who do not use them.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 16, 2023, 04:24:18 am
content: Quote from: CatalinaWOW on October 15, 2023, 11:38:50 pmI think most people here acknowledge this. However as I (and other) have pointed out before, how long do you go supporting an antiquated and increasingly inefficient system (both in terms of actual utility and associated costs)?Now, I've never worked in a bank but I can envisage some of the costs involved in producing/processing cheque payments would be as follows:Cheque drawing/processing feesCosts associated with staff having to perform manual processing (both from the bank's and end-user perspectiveIndirect costs associated with cheque/signature fraudCost of maintaining a physical presence in the community (bank branches)Delays associated with slow clearing times (thinking about large projects etc...)

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2023, 07:27:29 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on October 16, 2023, 04:24:18 amNow, for fairness' sake, imagine the costs associated with other payment mechanisms.Start by understanding the number of companies involved in, say, every credit card transaction. When I first glimpsed that my eyes widened and I resolved that I reallyreallynevereverwanted to have to understand that!I did get to see a little of the reconciliations business, i.e. how one company matches the monies received/sent to the statements of account received/sent. It ain't pretty, and it is unusual that all statements are fully reconciled. What happens is that each bank has a large number of rules to the effect "discrepancy too small; can't be bothered to investigate".As for working in a bank, my understanding are that many of the processes are to protect banks andto a lesser extenttheir customers from internal fraud by their staff. When that goes wrong the results are very unpleasant, e.g. Halifax-vs-Munden where a policeman was falsely jailed for "phantom ATM withdrawal" fraud, or Barings bank.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 17, 2023, 12:03:37 am
content: As a bit of a side note, I just got an email from my bank this morning. From 20/05/2024, they will no longer accept deposits in the form of chequeor cash, with cheques to be completely phased out by November 2024.Cash withdrawals from an ATM will still be possible.https://www.macquarie.com.au/help/general/cheque-and-cash-changes.html

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2023, 08:13:45 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on October 17, 2023, 12:03:37 amSo you take out cash and pay a merchant, who presumably cannot pay cash into their account?!In a cashless environment, what happens when your card is lost or swallowed by an ATM, or a North Korean (et c, etc, etc) gang cripples the bank? Or, for that matter, when the bank cripples itself?

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 17, 2023, 08:25:06 am
content: Quote from: tggzzz on October 17, 2023, 08:13:45 amBusiness accounts will still retain the ability to deposit cash since most stores still accept cash.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2023, 08:30:12 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on October 17, 2023, 08:25:06 amWhat happens if I sell treasures at a hamfest, and wish to deposit cash?What happens when bank attacked or attacks itself or card swallowed (q.v.)? All those have happened and will happen again.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 17, 2023, 08:44:36 am
content: Quote from: tggzzz on October 17, 2023, 08:30:12 amI'll take that gamble. You can't exactly compare banks in parts of Asia to here.For starters, every deposit holder in Australia is backed by the Australian Government Financial Claims Scheme, which is designed to protect up to $250k per account holder, per bank should the bank fail. That amount is guaranteed by the Government without any additional insurance or need to opt-in.

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2023, 09:09:57 am
content: Cash is protected without limitations from bank failures, though arguably other dangers exist.This would be my last day at this bank.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 17, 2023, 09:32:30 am
content: Quote from: magic on October 17, 2023, 09:09:57 amI actually just switched to this bank recently because of their products, but I suggest that you and I have very different ways of banking. That being said, Macquarie is Australia's 5th largest bank. From what I can see, the other big banks are following suit. Once that happens, the smaller banks will follow.Australia is moving ever closer to a cashless economy and whilst I don't see it disappearing entirely anytime soon (like cheques), consumers are voting with their wallets and the use of cash is dwindling. As has been mentioned previously, some stores no longer accept cash anymore.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2023, 10:24:51 am
content: Quote from: tggzzz on October 17, 2023, 08:30:12 amWhy would you accept cash? Every now and then I buy & sell second hand stuff. Items over (ballpark) 100 euro get paid by bank transfer. Over here it is rare for people using cash nowadays for these kind of transactions. Keep in mind cash can be counterfeited, a bank transfer where you check the balance on your own phone in realtime doesn't have that problem.QuoteHaving accounts at multiple banks works well. I have 3 working cards in my wallet. And it is good to have some cash on hand in case electronic payments are down for a day.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2023, 10:36:18 am
content: Good reason to accept cash is that you have a chokepoint on card transactions, the processor that handles the transaction from the store, and routes it to the bank. They outsource all the IT, and it is only a single keystroke mistake away from having a RBS month, where customers were completely unable to use cards, people were losing houses to foreclosure because debits did not go off, and people could not buy food, electricity or gas, plus were not being paid, as the money went from the sender account, but vanished into nothing. All because somebody in a outsourced data centre, with only a sheet of instructions to follow, not even at any way computer literate, or fluent in English, mixed up 2 steps in the process of completing a day transaction batch, and overwrote the entire database by attempting to restore from an empty backup. Took a good few months to get them more or less running again, and cost them a good chunk of the customer base as well.Choke point, in that all banks use the same 2 processors, Visa and Mastercard, represented by me by SASWITCH, and a failure at one will cascade through to the other rapidly, leaving no cards working, and even affecting ATM operations, as they also use the same switching networks to allow other bank use, and this comes before the own bank mainframe (or emulation) is able to process the transactions, and a lot of the internal bank systems are also linked this way. Very common to have 10-20 minute outages on the networks at times, but not noticed by customers much, as you are not using them 24/7, but only for a minute at a time. You just see it as a error, and the store tries again, perhaps after a minute, and you are at the edge of the window.By me 45% of the population is on welfare, with 7% as active taxpayers. So 45% use a card, and have little issue with it to get grant payments, and the vast majority are older women, and single parent households bringing up children, plus a lot of child headed households. Card gets used once a month to draw cash and buy food, and the banking system had been forced to totally block any direct debit ability from those cards, aside from a few select providers who have that in limited form, because of loan sharks that entered direct debits against multiple cards, and emptied them on grant day.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2023, 12:06:25 pm
content: Quote from: Halcyon on October 17, 2023, 08:44:36 amThat scheme is completely irrelevant to the point; nobody is talking about a bank failing. (Having said that, some of the points below indicate that technologiescouldcause a bank to fail.)What I'm thinking of is, for example, where a bank upgrades its IT systems in a grossly incompetent way such that customers are unable to access their accounts for weeks. That's happened several times,and is increasing, to the extent that the UK Government has become involved (my emphasis) particularly paragraphs 17-24...Quote

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 17, 2023, 12:34:58 pm
content: I'm not suggesting technology never fails, but perhaps the UK banks need to better oversight, particularly when it comes to their IT systems.I've used debit cards since I was 14 years old and I can remember two occurrences where a payment failed because of a technical issue.One happened about 15 years ago when there was some kind of widespread outage, since then, payment terminals have been updated and cards have changes, which means the way transactions are handled between then and now have changed.The second occurred about 5 years ago, as the store relied solely on 4G/5G and didn't have a WiFi or Ethernet backup to their card terminal. It just so happened at the time I made the purchase, the connection to the cellular network dropped and caused the payment, which was mid-transaction, to fail. I tried again a moment later and everything was fine.That's my personal experience over many years and probably 25k transactions later and relying on one single bank, and one single card/account.Many people have multiple accounts. It might be debit card account and a seperate credit card. Those accounts don't have to be with the same bank or even the same merchant. But even with the same card, you have a choice of "networks". For example, if I tap my card, the payment is routed via Mastercard's network. If I insert the same card and press "savings", the payment is routed via the EFTPOS network. That's redundancy in one single card in and of itself. Either way, the money comes out of the same place and costs me nothing.Also, in case of entire network failure, most payment terminals now fall back to an offline mode so that payments (meeting certain criteria) can proceed.If I'm at home and wanting to pay bills online, I have at least 3 different ways of doing it, all from the one bank account.Whilst no system is perfect, I've lost more cash by it simply falling out of my pocket, than I have in the value of digital payments failing in my lifetime. My entire point is, even if you took cheque and cash away from consumers (in Australia), there are various other methods available to make payments, pay bills, buy groceries etc... Sure, some people will need to make adjustments, but it's not onerous or impossible.During this entire thread I'm also speaking from our point of view down here. I completely understand that our approach here probably won't work in a lot of countries because of various reasons. No one ever suggested that "Because Australia and New Zealand are moving to digital banking, so should everyone else". At the end of the day, technology, no matter what it is continues to evolve. If people choose not to embrace it, then they get left behind.As I've also said, consumer spending habits usually dictate these things and the vast majority of the population have embraced digital-only payment methods and that number is only increasing. The number of customers using cheques is down in the noise and cash really isn't all that far behind.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2023, 01:40:12 pm
content: Quote from: Halcyon on October 17, 2023, 12:34:58 pm... But you don't include such failures in your belief that cheques are unnecessary and desirable.Here's today's examplehttps://www.theregister.com/2023/10/17/barclays_outage/Getting a person to answer the phone is very difficult in normal circumstances, and impossible during widespread failures. After all, telephone banking is too expensive when most people use cards. Isn't it?Saying "need better oversight" presumes that more management could improve the issue. I don't believe that, since people are people and the systems are enormously complicated conglomeration of individual systems.QuoteSo you are now presuming that people that have difficulty getting one account should get several accounts! Ridiculous and impractical.In the worse IT failures people have lost all electronic/telephone access to their accounts. At least cheques could be accepted and presented in the future.QuoteWhile systems are working, that is fine for many people. Even during those happy daze (sic) it fails for many.I'm glad you aren't in charge of ATC, since you would think that ATC controllers would never need to revert to paper strips (containing flight details) thrown across the room from one controller to another.Yes, access to your own money can be as life critical as ATC.QuoteAnd I have said that I rarely use cheques. Nonetheless, they are useful sometimes. The cost justification for stopping them doesn't stand up to scrutiny.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2023, 02:52:23 pm
content: Quote from: Halcyon on October 17, 2023, 12:03:37 amWas there a strong demand from this bank's customers for the bank to stop accepting cash?

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2023, 05:11:29 pm
content: Quote from: TimFox on October 17, 2023, 02:52:23 pmTouché !Skewers the concept that these service reductions arebecausecustomerswantreduced service

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2023, 05:21:00 pm
content: How do Australian strippers handle their cash tips?

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2023, 05:24:34 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on October 17, 2023, 05:11:29 pmI don't think anyone claims customers don't want these services. The claim is they don't actually use them enough to continue providing them. Its like the complaints about small high street bank branches closing. They don't exactly look busy in the run up to closure.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2023, 06:16:54 pm
content: My large bank (Bank of America) in the US has implemented ATMs all over its territory, both in branch banks (to reduce their labor force) and in free-standing locations.They can accept deposits in cash (no coins), as well as dispense cash (in certain denominations).It can't be that difficult, algorithmically, to count domestic currency automatically, as evidenced by this capability.Their ATMs also allow deposit of checks, without complaint.Cash deposits are available immediately, checks require a reasonable clearing time.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2023, 07:34:09 pm
content: Quote from: TimFox on October 17, 2023, 06:16:54 pmYou can find similar ATMs over here for many years already. More recently ATMs have been standarised so they work for all banks c.q. the bank specific ATMs are dissapearing. But this only goes to show that banks like to work without cash and have people use their debit / credit cards / digital payments for transactions.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2023, 09:48:19 pm
content: There still remain the follow the money questions.ATMs in the US are tied together in networks so virtually any card can be used at any ATM. But if the ATM is not from your home bank there is a fee. The fee varies depending on whether the ATM is from a bank or company that is in one of the several alliances, or is a private ATM (often found in bars, convenience stores and places where gambling is allowed). Those fees are smallest within the close alliances, sometimes even waived and are $3-$4 for the bulk of non-native transactions and go up to $5+ for the private machines.Back when checks were in vogue no checking account drew interest, and low risk investments brought in 3-5% interest. The banks covered their costs and made their money on the float in the checking accounts. In recent years the low risk investments draw 1-2% and banks obviously don't appreciate the reduced profits or even losses. The fees they charge on electronic transfers don't depend on the float and for credit transactions seem to run in the 2-4 percent range. The banks must really love the folks making $40 cash withdrawals from the ATMs and paying a $3.50 fee. Much better rate of return than on credit cards.The fraud exposure question is interesting. In more than 50 years of check usage I have never had a check stolen and used to attack my account or had the amount modified on a check I have written, and only a couple of checks which bounced due to insufficient funds in the check writers account. I have however had fraudulent charges on credit and debit cards on half a dozen occasions, with multiple charges in the majority of those cases. What is more interesting is that from the banks point of view the risk from checks is lower since (at least at the banks I have dealt with) they don't cover any losses and in fact they often charge a fee to both the writer and recipient for a bounced check. While (at least here in the US) the banking companies are responsible for a significant part of the losses for credit card fraud and often for debit cards.In my mind there are two things going on here. The Australian government finds use of EFT cheaper and thus wants to eliminate checks. I suspect one of the biggest savings for the government is mailing costs. I don't know if Australia uses franking (term in US for the governments use of the mail without paying postage), but even with that the envelopes and checks and machines to stuff them do cost as does the actual delivery, and at government scale it is a sizeable chunk of change. Meanwhile the banks find EFT more profitable and prefers that business.The lifestyle benefits or drawbacks probably don't matter a whit in these decisions.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2023, 10:03:21 pm
content: My experience with checks and credit-card fraud in the US is similar to CatalinaWOW.I have been using checks since 1966, and have never had a check stolen, nor modified, but had one check to me from a personal sale that bounced, back in 1975.Since I only use credit cards (along with an ATM card that is not a debit card), I have had a few episodes of credit-card fraud attempted on me.I believe that each actual fraud attempt was caught by the card issuer (both American Express and Visa), who notified me promptly.In each case, I still had physical possession of the card, but the numbers had been compromised somehow.The card issuers were quick to fix the problem, but I had to wait for delivery of a replacement card (with different numbers) and to notify some recurring-payment vendors.My favorite episode was some miscreant trying to order expensive stuff from Apple, apparently only knowing my name.The idiot outside agent for Apple handling his request happily looked up my record with Apple, and charged it to my Amex card, but they caught it.Apparently, they thought it strange that I would order an expensive computer drop-shipped to Hong Kong, instead of Chicago.This was the morning when I was leaving for Japan.I dealt with the Amex fraud department about this before leaving, but of course could not get a new card before departure.My frustration with these episodes (besides logistics on card replacement, which was inevitable) is that, by policy, they never tell me what happened with their attempts (if any) to catch the perpetrator.I do not look with favor on being forced to do everything online, regardless of my own preference.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2023, 10:04:31 pm
content: Quote from: CatalinaWOW on October 17, 2023, 09:48:19 pmThis used to be the case in many places. In the UK these days you'll find a lot of ATMs with a "FREE CASH" sign, which might sound bizarre to an outsider, but simply means no fees for an account with any UK bank. We are well beyond the point where running a comprehensive ATM network was a competitive advantage. Cash use is now low enough the banks want to provide an adequate service with the minimum ATMs, so they are happy to share resources.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2023, 11:11:06 pm
content: Quote from: CatalinaWOW on October 17, 2023, 09:48:19 pmIt could be fraud from checks is mostly visible to banks compared the fraud with credit/debit cards which is also visible to the customer. Over here banks are quite lenient towards covering losses due to skimming and phising (and other internet related fraud methods). I guess that is still cheaper for the banks compared to dealing with cash money (which can also be stolen but this is not visible to the customer).Germany has quite a bit of problems with gangs (from the NL) that blow up ATMs to steal the money for a long time already. Besides tens of millions of euros that got stolen, the cost for the damage caused is in the hundreds of million euros. Not to mention safety for the people living near the ATMs. The criminals don't care about loss of life they may cause at all.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 17, 2023, 11:34:44 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on October 17, 2023, 01:40:12 pmI don't believe that... society has demonstrated that as a whole. Whether you look at consumer habits, or government organisations and corporations, people have turned their back on cheques. It's not a belief, it's what's actually happening in the real world.QuoteThat's one possible solution. Either the management/oversight is insufficient, or they are doing it wrong. Which is it?QuoteNot at all. In fact, I demonstrated the opposite by using a single account for the past 25 years. I explained how a single card can have redundancies built-in. I simply said "many people have" multiple accounts, therefore increasing that redundancy even more. That's simply another option and a choice consumers have if they want to diversify their financial products.QuoteI'm glad I'm not either since I'm neither an expert or trained in controlling aircraft. I have no desire to be.QuoteYou keep saying that, but you haven't explained HOW. I've already outlined some costs associated with keeping a chequing system alive.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2023, 11:44:09 pm
content: I don't know about Australia, but the banking industry in the US seems to have figured out how to process checks automatically at a reasonable cost.They no longer physically return checks by mail, and many checks go immediately to digital, and it seems to work.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2023, 01:12:14 am
content: Quote from: TimFox on October 17, 2023, 11:44:09 pmIn the UK we don't even submit cheques to the bank any more. We just scan them with our phones using the bank's online app, or at ATM. Only cheques which just won't scan need to be physically submitted. You need to find a full featured ATM, though. Most don't support automated cheque submission. If you go to the big branches in the centre of this city you only get face time with a human if you have something that needs discussing.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2023, 02:48:36 am
content: Banks in the US also allow submission of checks by phone camera.The first time we saw a commercial for that here over 10 years ago, my wife and I laughed because we both immediately thought of shooting a 6 x 12 cm image on 120 roll film.Every ATM I have used at my bank accepts checks for deposit:The machine reads the check and asks me to verify the amount before swallowing it.If the check were unreadable, it would reject it.With the exception of one machine at my local branch that had gone haywire, ATMs seem to be reliable machines for handling paper (checks and currency).

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2023, 10:01:19 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on October 17, 2023, 11:34:44 pmI don't understand what you are trying to say. Such system failures do occur, all too often. Yesterday part of Barclays Bank systems failed.QuoteStrawman argument.You might as well state that people have turned their backs on walking in favour of cars.QuoteNeither.The systems are so large and complex that no one person or organisationcan ever understand the wholecontrols the whole in any meaningful wayand that's equally true inside an organisation as well as the whole banking systemThat's the reality, and hoping/believing otherwise leads to futile policy declarations.Or maybe you think that a corporate mandate to "write error free code" is a practical management strategy!QuoteYes, you did, to all intents and purposes. The only way your previous statement (which you conveniently snipped) could have made sense is if you presumed that your experience could be generalised to everybody. Here's what you wrote: "Many people have multiple accounts. It might be debit card account and a seperate credit card. ... If I'm at home and wanting to pay bills online, I have at least 3 different ways of doing it, all from the one bank account."Your "I'm alright Jack" therefore everybody else could also be alright is naive and doesn't reflect well on you.I've just read this example of why physical transfer can be useful in some cases:https://twistedsifter.com/2023/10/ive-never-had-a-check-lost-so-you-dont-have-to-worry-tenant-catches-landlord-lying-about-not-receiving-his-rent-and-he-has-video-evidence/Not definitive of course, but it is illustrative.QuoteThat's avoiding the directly relevant analogy. Not a good debating tactic, which makes it look like you don't want to concede that your position is weak.QuoteYouare the one claiming that cheques are "too expensive" in some way. It is up to you to define the absolute expense and to compare it with alternative expenses.

author: Piper259
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: October 18, 2023, 12:31:11 pm
content: In my world, paper checks are a thing of the past, but my dad still thinks it's the best way to give someone money. I use Bank of America ATMs and have never experienced any difficulties, and yet I believe the financial system needs to move forward. I'll add that, for example, I have been following theDashDevsteam for a long time, which has successfully launched several dozen fintech products, and I believe such companies are the future. I hope that such innovations and the development of the fintech sector will allow us to take the next step and help everyone master convenient financial management.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2023, 12:55:35 pm
content: A comment about needing multiple cards:In my post above about my experiences with fraudulent charges to my Visa or American Express cards, in both cases I had to wait a few days for a replacement card.(American Express was willing to FedEx one quickly, but I was literally leaving that morning for Japan.)While waiting for that replacement, I was able to use the other one.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2023, 01:20:02 pm
content: Quote from: Halcyon on October 17, 2023, 11:34:44 pmIf you have a mortgage and/or loan, it is mandatory to have multiple accounts at different banks. Don't keep your money at a bank where you loaned from. The fine print says that if you get behind with payments, they can claw whatever they can from your bank account. That will likely happen at the most inconvenient moment.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2023, 11:17:37 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on October 18, 2023, 01:20:02 pmYep, quite right. And usually the bank you're getting the loan from will try to pressure you into placing as much money in their bank as you can. If you're a bit short, they will even just refuse the loan if you don't. Don't get intimidated.Another factor for having multiple accounts is for the case your bank goes uh, bankrupt. There's always a limit for how much of your money will be guaranteed, and even so, if things go real sour, you might be able to shove the guarantee up your bottom. So yeah, not all your eggs in the same basket, that's nothing new really.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 18, 2023, 11:26:16 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on October 18, 2023, 10:01:19 amI wouldn't say my position on this is weak at all.I've explained various different scenarios to you, but because your biases don't let you see past it, you seem to think all my arguments are invalid (or less valid than yours). If I was to turn the tables around, I'd say you haven't presented a strong case why these old methods should be retained. You're also arguing for something that the vast majority of the community have demonstrated that they don't want or need.You're trying to attack the person, rather than disputing the facts, which is a pretty naive move. All I'm getting from you is "it's a dumb idea, I'm right, everyone else is wrong" and when challenged, you attempt to point out flaws in other peoples' debating tactics. You might as well just call me a "poo poo head" at this point.Quote from: SiliconWizard on October 18, 2023, 11:17:37 pmPrecisely! It's actually not a "ridiculous and impractical" idea at all.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2023, 07:53:18 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on October 18, 2023, 11:26:16 pmMirror. You are the one ignoring use-cases relevant to other people.QuoteMajority != everybody.Your position is an example of "the tyanny of the majority", which is morally and ethically repugnant.The majority don't need closed caption subtitles on videos, nor tactile pavements to indicate crossing points, nor ramps to get into public building. Unless you are inconsistent, I have to presume that your position is that they should not be provided because savings can be made.QuoteFalse. I attack your position, not you.All we are getting from you is, as several others have noted, "I don't need/use cheques therefore you don't need cheques and it is they should be removed".

author: mairo
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 19, 2023, 08:16:07 am
content: Lol, I just received a check on the mail for $4 .. I have another check for $30 that I received ~ 10 years ago and is still with me and I thought they never expire untill I read here that they do

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 19, 2023, 08:36:18 am
content: Quote from: tggzzz on October 19, 2023, 07:53:18 amThen you haven't been following at all, because that is completely removed from the truth.I refuse to go around and around in circles with people who refuse to listen and take the thoughts, experiences and advice of others on-board (and even just think slightly out of the box). I think you've made your point loud and clear.

author: vk4ffab
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2023, 09:00:19 am
content: Quote from: TimFox on October 18, 2023, 12:55:35 pmMy experience is the opposite. Got scammed with phony checks a couple of time, not for great sums of money, but enough to implement a no checks policy for my business. But have never had a fraudulent charge put on the debit card. But i keep very little money in that account so if i did get scammed, they would not get much.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2023, 09:10:37 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on October 19, 2023, 08:36:18 amYouare the one who "refuse to listen and take the thoughts, experiences and advice of others on-board". Several people have pointed that out,and given many examples.I, OTOH, completely acknowledge that cheques are very much a minority mechansim for payment, and that cash/electronic means are suitable for mostbut not allpurposes. I rarely use cheques, but expect to use one at Christmas.I dispute theunprovenassertions that cheques are "too expensive" in some undefined way, and that electronic mechanisms are a complete substitute for cheques.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2023, 09:32:08 am
content: Quote from: vk4ffab on October 19, 2023, 09:00:19 amEvery time I saw businesses accepting cheques it was in conjunction with eithera requirement that a cheque cleared before service/goods were delivered, orthe now-obsolete bank's cheque guarantee mechanismThat seemed entirely reasonable to me; if I had run a business I would have done just that. Nowadays businessespaythird parties to take that risk with electronic payments; theincreased costsare offset by convenience. Fine, especially since the consumer doesn't notice.I've known individuals that have beenseverelyaffected by errant electronic transfers. The worst was my bosses' secretary who discovered that she had "lost" half her monthly salary to an unauthorised transfer. The bank agreed it was unauthorised, refunded her money, apologised (but no more) for the <ahem> "inconvenience", said it wouldn't happen again.The same happened the next month. Oops.The same happened thethirdmonth. WTF?!The bank admitted they didn't know the sourceand couldn't stop the transfers. Absolutely gobsmacking!Finallyafter 3(?) months, the bank was able to work out that an obscure merchant bank had made a data entry error, and get the transfers stopped.The little I've since learned about the banking industry leads me to be less than surprised: processes assumes everything is in order and that the bank is, by definition, correct. Example: Halifax and John Munden which falsely jailed an ex-police officer and caused his wife to attempt suicidehttps://www.doc.ic.ac.uk/~ids/dotdot/misc/titbits/phantom_ATM_withdrawals.htmlandhttp://catless.ncl.ac.uk/Risks/18.25.html#subj5

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2023, 09:47:16 am
content: Have had washed cheques, which were really good counterfiets, until you looked closer at them, and could see the background was printed on with an inkjet printer, with the odd dots of cyan and magenta in the yellow, as the printer attempted to imitate a Pantone colour, which would be a solid even colour halftone pattern. They bleached all the background and text off, except for the signatures, and printed it all back, with a near perfect match to the original. However I also had a cancelled cheque from the exact same book to use for comparasion, and aside from the printing, they were nearly identical, except the cheque form they used was from a different cheque printing company, as the tiny logo and name showed up in the location where the original one was, and was different.Stolen in the return from the bank, and it would be an inside job, seeing as I was the one who used to go to the bank once every few days to do paper handling, either just collecting cheques, handling FOREX paperwork, or even a few times to get change, or to deposit cash. Suggested strongly to use a CIT company after the second armed robbery, where they took my phone, and the bag containing a deposit book..... After that if I absolutely had to, I drove like a minibus taxi, with all stops being classed as optional. Kind of normal in S Africa to drive like that though, and to exceed speed limits as well. I just do not drive drunk, like our one driver, who we joked braked on impact, and who was rarely sober past lunch.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2023, 10:23:10 am
content: Quote from: SeanB on October 19, 2023, 09:47:16 amMany banks' processes are designed to protect the bank from inside fraud by staff, which is equally possible in electronic fraud and paper fraud.That happened in the "phantom ATM withdrawal" Halifax and John Munden travesty.

author: vk4ffab
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2023, 09:21:25 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on October 19, 2023, 09:32:08 amOh back then just about all business to business dealings were with check, so nothing we did was out of the ordinary, no one in their right minds accepted personal checks though without waiting for clearance or at all because the risk was so high. But it does not take much for a check to bounce, someone over drafted the over draft, someone missed a payment date and the whole accounting system gets thrown out of whack. My business has always used cash accounting, so these things smart when delays happen. Now days with instant bank transfers with OSKO (thats what its called in Australia) the accounts payable in another city can get her done without the minion in another needing petty cash or a check.I am not so naive to think errors and mistakes do not creep in sometimes and they are bloody terrifying to those that have to endure them, but, whats the alternative? Cash? I have substantial savings there is not a hope in hell I would want that kind of money sitting under my mattress. There is a greater chance my house will burn down that a bank error drains my account. This is Australia after all and the 4 seasons here are summer summer fire and flood and we are in fire season

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2023, 10:06:25 pm
content: Quote from: vk4ffab on October 19, 2023, 09:21:25 pmYes; all agreed.But I do have some gold coins secreted away in a hopefully fireproof box. They have increased nicely in value, and, since they are coins of the realm, they are free from capital gains tax

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2023, 10:55:58 pm
content: That's an amusing detail of British law.American gold coins, including eagles and double-eagles, are no longer legal tender, so their taxable appreciation is dealt with in the same manner as appreciation of precious stones.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2023, 10:57:28 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on October 19, 2023, 10:06:25 pmHow dare you try and escape the matrix? You know you don't need coins. You need pills.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2023, 11:03:07 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on October 19, 2023, 10:57:28 pmToo trueMust do some research before I really need them.

author: vk4ffab
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2023, 11:50:35 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on October 19, 2023, 10:06:25 pmAn uncle of mine had a bunch of gold buried in his back yard for the exact same reasons, never saw the point of it myself, though one would hope they are an appreciating asset rather than currency in the event of world collapse and even then, a potato might be worth more than gold in that situation. HAHAHA or as we all found out during covid, better stock up on bog roll because that will be the global currency when the zombies rise

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2023, 11:56:27 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on October 19, 2023, 09:32:08 amThat's nothing. A friend of mine had a vending machine charge him on the order of $65k, and the bank turned around and said it wasn't their problem. Thankfully, the company operating the machine saw reason. It's more than a little disturbing that an error like that can occur on the wire and not be caught.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2023, 12:21:24 am
content: Quote from: tggzzz on October 19, 2023, 11:03:07 pmYou may need them before you're done.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2023, 03:00:07 am
content: Which is odd considering your nickname.

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2023, 06:27:16 am
content: WTF, you aren't supposed to know

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2023, 07:25:49 am
content: Quote from: Monkeh on October 20, 2023, 11:56:27 pmOuch! Wouldn't have happened with chequesPresuming he didn't have $65k in the account, why did the debits succeed?I'm surprised the bank claimed that unauthorised debits weren't their problem.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 21, 2023, 09:12:54 am
content: Quote from: tggzzz on October 21, 2023, 07:25:49 amWell, it probably would have.Just because you have a chequing account, doesn't mean all the current methods are null and void. Precautions still need to be taken, regardless of the method of payment. If you want to go down the path of fraud, cheques are even more open to manipulation than just about any other method of payment.If you're meaning that the payment wouldn't have gone through on the vending machine via a cheque, yep, you're right, almost no one accepts them anymore (and last I checked, no vending machine did). Hurrah! Finally a win for an obsolete payment method... security through obscurity. Your reward will be 1 kilogram of black peppercorns. Spend it wisely!

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2023, 09:46:59 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on October 21, 2023, 09:12:54 amNote the smiley.Hurdles before cheque causes a debit:victim wouldn't have written the cheque, and sanity checks for large amountseyeballs in victim's bank, strange new large debit to a personal accountlarge amount, certainly enough to trigger "large transfer procedures"delays for cheques to clear, might have given victim time to raise the alarmvictim's bank couldn't have absolved themselves of responsibility, but they would probably have triedHurdles wouldn't have been insurmountable, but the victimwouldhave been helped by the last point.Quote"Fast and thoughtless" has different problems to "slow and thoughtful". Swings and roundabouts.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2023, 01:10:45 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on October 21, 2023, 07:25:49 amHe in fact did, and it was authorised to the same extent as any other transaction. And the machine happily displayed the correct price all the way through the process.As far as the bank was concerned, it was an authorised transaction with card present at a terminal which had been used prior. Not their problem.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2023, 02:29:41 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on October 21, 2023, 01:10:45 pmBegins to make alittlemore sense. Still surprised that the amount wasn't challenged; normally everything over £10k is subject to extra checks w.r.t. anti-crime/terror transactions.Just as well he wasn't making an audiophool purchase, since ridiculous amounts are commonplace there!

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2023, 02:44:15 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on October 21, 2023, 02:29:41 pmWhat doesn't make sense to me is how a machine can display a transaction for.. whatever it was, it was a flower machine so I'd guess $20-50, receive authorisation, and end up drawing $65k. Leaves me with very, very little trust in the entire chain.Then again, this was in the US, I've come to expect major institutions there to be 20+ years behind the curve.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2023, 02:51:53 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on October 21, 2023, 02:44:15 pmSo it appears.All chains and processes fail sometimes. The key point is how easy it is to repudiate transactions, which largely depends on the Ts&Cs pushing responsibility onto other parties. With CSRs being replaced by chatbots or guided by LLMs, such repudiation is unlikely to get easier. classically passwords and PINs, which push the responsibility onto the end user: "the correct passworf/PIN was used therefore you must have use it or been negligent".

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 22, 2023, 09:49:56 am
content: Interesting article in the news today:https://12ft.io/proxy?&q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.smh.com.au%2Fpolitics%2Ffederal%2Fcash-no-longer-king-but-it-s-not-dead-australians-follow-the-money-to-digital-wallets-20231020-p5eds7.htmlBasically the takeaway point is that Australian citizens are increasingly moving to digital payment systems, instead of cash, which means in a lot of cases, managing ATMs has become a cost burden with a significant drop in the number of machines installed throughout the country.And whilst Australia isn't a cashless economy "just yet", it seems surprising that biggest reduction in cash users was actually elderly people. Seems you can teach an old dog new tricks?From a fraud perspective, the use of banking applications give end-users almost real-time information on transactions that occur. Which allows for faster response in disabling cards, disputing transactions and recouping the money.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2023, 07:43:58 pm
content: Quote from: Halcyon on October 22, 2023, 09:49:56 amI'm not all that surprised for this particular point. Using a card instead of cash is easy, so doesn't require any particular knowledge or affinity to new tech, it's actually easier for the elderly as it doesn't require them to count bills and coins (or even see them correctly as their eyesight degrades), plus that removes the fear of being robbed. And finally, older people, apart from a minority, probably don't care very much about the privacy of their transactions anymore compared to younger people. So yeah, not surprised about this at all.

author: vk4ffab
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2023, 09:34:55 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on October 22, 2023, 07:43:58 pmWhat it does do is introduce a whole new set of problems for them because of digital illiteracy in the older population and that is a tendency to be susceptible to scams. One almost needs to act like a tin foil hat conspiracy theorist to protect themselves from scams. Thankfully i get so few calls, texts or emails from scammers, but it takes take some effort to stay on top of things. My phone number according to jlc and other online businesses I buy though is 555123456 and my email address is disposable, because you just know that those aliexpress stores ya buy though are going to share your details with the Industrial Scam Factory Concern. HAHAHA

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 23, 2023, 10:39:50 pm
content: Quote from: vk4ffab on October 23, 2023, 09:34:55 pmThere are some pretty dumb and gullible younger people out there too. In my experience with dealing with older folk, I'd suggest that even though they might not be clued up on the latest technology, they have life experience and aren't silly either.Some statistics released for 2021-2022 showed that those 65 and older were actually the second lowest group who had been exposed to scams overall. The highest number came from the 35 to 44 year age group.Now of course there are several ways to read into statistics, and you could argue there are more people in the younger age group which means higher instances of fraud. But nonetheless, it's interesting anyway.https://www.abs.gov.au/statistics/people/crime-and-justice/personal-fraud/latest-release

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2023, 11:32:27 pm
content: Many of us older people are slow to adopt new schemes of dubious improvement over current schemes because we were not born yesterday.

author: vk4ffab
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2023, 12:25:43 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on October 23, 2023, 10:39:50 pmACCC data for 2022 clearly shows over 65's account for 25% of all scam reports and for 25% of the amount lost. Couple that cohort with 55+ and you start getting close to 50% of all victims and value. Compare that to any other 2 groups combine and they are the most represented cohort. The amount lost is obviously higher because this group has all the money, but in terms of numbers, the only rational explanation is a lack of digital literacy. FYIW, i am 52.https://www.accc.gov.au/media-release/accc-calls-for-united-front-as-scammers-steal-over-3bn-from-australians

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2023, 12:38:10 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on October 23, 2023, 10:39:50 pmThere's a famous example of anextremelycompetent (and very nice) old lady that fell prey to scammers.Why extremely competent? Well, she and her husband were pioneering programmers, back in the 50s - and their son was a certain Tim Berners-Lee (you may have heard of him).http://downloads.bbc.co.uk/tv/watchdog/WebScript_CourierScam_040614.pdfhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Lee_Woods(I don't know why that article uses her maiden name; I never heard her use it)l

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2023, 12:43:33 am
content: Quote from: vk4ffab on October 24, 2023, 12:25:43 amHere in the US the elderly are also the number one age cohort for being scammed. But the number two cohort is the teen to thirty age group. It seems that experience helps up until the facilities start to fade.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2023, 12:49:27 am
content: Quote from: TimFox on October 23, 2023, 11:32:27 pmPetronius Arbiter's famous quote applies to new products as well as new org-charts, viz: "I was to learn later in life that we tend to meet any new situation by reorganizing, and what a wonderful method it can be for creating the illusion of progress while actually producing confusion, inefficiency, and demoralization."In my case I spent a large chunk of my career on the bleeding edge of technology in a well-known industrial research lab. That required keeping on top of all the new products and technologies, so that I/we could advance them.99% of them weren't an advance. At best they were different (but not better), and nowhere near as good or revolutionary as their proponents claimed.Recognising which were "froth" and which were "liquid" meant I didn't go down the blind alleys (now mercifully forgotten) that seduced many people.Summary: most claimed advances aren't an advance.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2023, 12:43:27 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on October 24, 2023, 12:49:27 amThe main reason "advances" are advances is "we control this one, and we don't control all the alternatives already out there performing well".

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2023, 01:15:31 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on October 24, 2023, 12:43:27 pmThat is indeed one reason; the "conspiracy theory of history" is sometimes right.Alternative reasons are "we are young and/or ignorant so we have triumphantly reinvented the wheel", "we think you are ignorant and easily lead up the garden path until after you have given us money". The former is the "cockup theory of history", the latter is another "conspiracy theory of history".When younger (and still in my weak moments) I prefer the conspiracy theory. But usually the cockup theory is sufficientDepressing isn't it.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2023, 01:20:20 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on October 24, 2023, 01:15:31 pmI'm always amused when the young and stupid tell me a product, which clearly did exist, could not have existed because they have no clue how it might have worked. An example would be weapons which performed Fourier transforms optically before a DSP type of FFT processor was feasible.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2023, 01:31:20 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on October 24, 2023, 01:20:20 pmYeahBlack is white and no that very dark thing isn't really black.There's one of those conversations going on ATM about whatisn'tdigital logic. If you don't already know which thread that is, don't go looking for it!

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2023, 02:04:05 pm
content: I remember when the Cooley-Tukey algorithm for rapidly computing the Discrete Fourier Transform was a new thing, and just going into practical uses.At the time, image processing laboratories always had an optical bench to generate a Fourier Transform image by optical diffraction from a laser source.Years later, the young people at work thought Fourier was spelled with a double-F.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2023, 02:31:22 pm
content: Quote from: TimFox on October 24, 2023, 02:04:05 pmYou were around when Gauss was alive?

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2023, 04:52:47 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on October 24, 2023, 02:31:22 pmNo, but my long life overlaps Cooley and Tukey, and their publication of the algorithm.Prior to that publication, popular opinion held was that computing a DFT was a waste of time (except when only one or a few of the resulting frequency bins was needed).Seehttps://www.cis.rit.edu/class/simg716/Gauss_History_FFT.pdfPerhaps if Gauss had published his work, and had access to modern computing hardware, history would be different.Shortly after Cooley and Tukey published their algorithm, Cooley and others researched the history of similar work more thoroughly.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2023, 05:00:04 pm
content: Quote from: TimFox on October 24, 2023, 04:52:47 pmIt wasn't just Gauss that realised how many terms become zero when the number of elements in a discrete transform is a power of two. Reading the history of fast Fourier transforms is a lesson in how easily innovation gets lost over and over. Rather like LDPC or the youngsters losing track of a transform being possible by fairly compact low complexity optical methods.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2023, 05:01:37 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on October 24, 2023, 05:00:04 pmWhen comparing Columbus to Leif Ericsson, it is often said that after Columbus, the Americasstayeddiscovered.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2023, 05:09:59 pm
content: Quote from: TimFox on October 24, 2023, 05:01:37 pmYep. Its clearly relevance that keeps things known. LDPC didn't become relevant until decades after it was first worked out, so it was forgotten and needed rediscovering. Optical Fourier transforms became less relevant after AMD and others started driving the cost and size of a multiplier down, so people have started to forget about them. Its really sad. Chills in bearing castings are an interesting one. That was technology worked out by Victorians for broad industrial application, and the need for them didn't go away. The actual technology did, though..... until people in the 1970s and 1980s started questioning why 100 year old bearings were only just starting to need replacing, and why when they were replaced the new ones failed in a couple of years.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2023, 11:17:10 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on October 24, 2023, 01:15:31 pmUsually, when new tech is promoted by older people, that means the goal is more control. When it's promoted by young ones, it's indeed more out of willing to do better than what people did before (which is natural and what has always driven us), but often without the experience to be objective about it. And the depressing part is that both can cooperate quite well to achieve things that do not benefit most of us.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2023, 08:05:22 am
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on October 24, 2023, 11:17:10 pmAgreed.Still have a pain in all the diodes down my left side

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2023, 10:52:34 am
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on October 24, 2023, 11:17:10 pmI would say the opposite. Young people seem to go for convenience so much they will happily stumble into being controlled. Older people have seen that before and try to avoid it. Studies of the attitudes of current young people seem to indicate that a sadly large number are very comfortable with being spied upon and controlled.

author: vk4ffab
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2023, 11:00:03 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on October 25, 2023, 10:52:34 amI tend to look at things a little different to most. The problem is not who is dumb or happy to be controlled, its that "WE" as a society allow for the exploration of others though technological advancement and as a society are slow to catch up. Google went from do no evil to how can we extract more money out of our users in a very short time span. Facebook went from a good place to keep in contact with friends to every other post someone telling me how to think because they paid facebook for the privilege. Youtube went from video publication to idiots pointing and looking like their got a stick up their butts and telling us how to think for add dollars. Now everyone is playing the various algorithms for maximum gain.The effort that I go though to not be tracked online and to be rather anonymous as far as those harvesting data go is annoying to say the least. Running a Pi Hole and a bunch of browser plugins should not be the default way to interact in the digital landscape so as to not be tracked and manipulated though targeted advertising and suggested posts and videos. But it is what it is until governments start clamping down on the excesses that give you camberage analytica and we have the right to opt out, control our data and be forgotten.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 26, 2023, 04:01:20 am
content: Quote from: coppice on October 25, 2023, 10:52:34 amYou're not saying the opposite - you're viewing it from the angle of end-users, when I was viewing it from the angle of the doers.

author: Melt-O-Tronic
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 26, 2023, 05:50:18 am
content: Quote from: ataradov on October 08, 2023, 11:30:07 pmThis is not true.Edited to expand: This is true forcashdeposits. Check deposits can take up to nine days to be available (although I believe that to be an extreme case).Quote

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 26, 2023, 02:44:21 pm
content: Quote from: Melt-O-Tronic on October 26, 2023, 05:50:18 amSomewhere way above this, I posted a link to the actual regulations for US banking.