Why My Washing Machine Flips CBP? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / beginners

author: Boris_yo
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 29, 2011, 11:25:54 am
content: Merry Christmas and happy coming New Year!Guys, today when i wanted to plug washing machine, my breaker flipped:When machine was bought, its original power cord was cut before plug itself, extended and isolated with tape because of short length not able to reach power socket:Many years machine performed well until today when it started flipping CBP.Assumptions:The cord was often lying on the floor and get wet a little by splashes coming out of sink.What I Have Tried:Using different socketThe connection between both cords seems to be fine on first look.Coincidence?Yesterday i fixed similar problem that i was having with refridgerator. It was flipping switch every time plug was connected/disconnected and everytime refridgerator's door was opened which caused its lighting system to turn on. It also was flipping switch occassionally when nothing was done to plug or door opened.The problem was determined and fixed in the end as Neutral wire inside the plug was shortening due to it being exposed out of its shielding.

author: firewalker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 29, 2011, 11:30:02 am
content: For the washing machine: Possibly the water heating element is worn out and water reached the actual resistor wrapping.Alexander.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 29, 2011, 03:16:10 pm
content: Oh my, Dr Kevorkian couldn't build a better example! Live conductors! Wet areas! In insulation tape we trust! (I most certainly don't!)

author: Rufus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 29, 2011, 03:47:32 pm
content: Quote from: Uncle Vernon on December 29, 2011, 03:16:10 pmLook on the bright side, if it is wet the fire hazard is reduced....

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 29, 2011, 05:37:53 pm
content: 2nd picture: i thought i'm the only one doing itbut i will be very careful, or even dont do it on wet area due to shock hazard.

author: Boris_yo
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 29, 2011, 08:02:59 pm
content: Quote from: Uncle Vernon on December 29, 2011, 03:16:10 pmNo the whole cable was already isolated. I just removed isolation tape and then took picture. Or you mean 3 isolated conductors inside the cable? Yes they are isolated, otherwise how would i connect both cords? Solder them?

author: Boris_yo
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 29, 2011, 08:03:49 pm
content: Quote from: Mechatrommer on December 29, 2011, 05:37:53 pmWhat other way do you propose to connect cords then?

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 29, 2011, 08:42:34 pm
content: Quote from: Boris_yo on December 29, 2011, 08:03:49 pmYou're not serious?

author: Boris_yo
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 29, 2011, 08:56:29 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on December 29, 2011, 08:42:34 pmI am serious. How do i extend power cable the correct and safe way?

author: tbscope
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 29, 2011, 09:20:00 pm
content: Does it break the circuit breaker or the RCD?The way the cable is extended is not allowed in the electric code of most countries.You should buy a new and longer power cord with the correct specifications and according to the electric code in your country, that you connect inside the washing machine.The construction on the photo above will in the best cases trip your circuit breaker (high currents in the live or neutral conductors) or your RCD (low currents in your earth conductor). Depending on the layout of your electrical network, and in the case you do not have an RCD, you can get currents high enough not to trip the circuit breaker but kill anything that touches the cord. Remember that a few milli amps are enough to kill you! A little bit of moisture, a bad electrical network, and you have a deadly situation. Not to mention a real fire hazard.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 29, 2011, 10:39:00 pm
content: Quote from: Boris_yo on December 29, 2011, 08:02:59 pmNo it wasn't! You can cannot wash your smalls with an isolated washer. What it also wasn't was adequately insulated.Quoteremoved what?QuoteNo I mean "inadequate mains insulation in a frequently damp service area is a potential death trap. Bodges like that can kill you!QuoteWith a proper mains and environment rated plug and socket! Better still would be to fit a longer flex, or have another outlet safely installed above the washer.Seriously! If you have as many electrical disasters as you have shown here, you are lucky someone hasn't been hurt or killed or your house hasn't burnt down. Live wires need a little more than some electrical tape to be safe.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 29, 2011, 11:42:34 pm
content: Quote from: Boris_yo on December 29, 2011, 08:03:49 pmmake a rectangular (or cylindrical whichever you prefer) mould, put the jointed cable in it, pour the accelerated fiberglass resin in it, wait until it cured, remove the mould, the walla! finished! bulletproof insulationwell not bullet, at least waterproof

author: wkb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2011, 09:06:04 am
content: Quote from: Boris_yo on December 29, 2011, 08:56:29 pmBy removing the original cable and installing one that is long enough to start with.

author: mariush
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2011, 12:45:43 pm
content: You can get cable by the meter or feet in your country. You can also buy the plug separately...Get enough cable for your needs, screw one end of the cable into the plug and solder or screw the other ends inside the washing machine. We're talking about a few dollars here at best.

author: ipman
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2011, 01:13:48 pm
content: In damp areas, you should not use this kind of junction.Buy a new wire, continuous piece, preferably with silicon or neoprene insulation. Attach this cable inside the washing machine and make sure that the plug is meeting the electrical outlet outside damp area.

author: RJSC
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 31, 2011, 07:38:01 am
content: Or you can buy some heatshrink with resin inside.They are used to join the cable underwater on submersible artesian well pumps. The pumps come with 2 meters of non removable cable (potted with resin in the motor case).So, it's not mandatory to replace the whole cable with one piece.If you can't find that heatsrink, in a just sligthly damp enviroment I'd solder the cable, fill regular heatshrink on the cable with hot glue and then shrink it with the glue still liquid and clean off the excess that came out.If it was my machine however I'd put an entire piece cable for aesthetic reasons and sanded that rust and spray paint it.Leakage current flowing from live to earth wire trips a ground fault breaker. Current can be leaking on that damp isulation tape joint or inside the machine. The machine may also be damp inside if it rusted.

author: Boris_yo
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2012, 09:08:12 am
content: Quote from: ipmanIf i remove old cable from washing machine, how will i be able to know where to attach N,L,G in a new cable in machine?Quote from: RJSC on December 31, 2011, 07:38:01 amI have bought enamel white spray paint but was offered liquid solution for rust removal which should be put on surface and later easily removed with cloth without need of using sandpaper breathing rusty dust and scratching surface (machine is 5 years old). I did not buy that solution since i thought i should follow your advice with sandpaper. Did i do right thing?

author: ipman
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2012, 09:13:29 am
content: You can connect the wire directly to the inside terminals, or at least try to make the joint waterproof inside the washing machine body. There are less chances of direct water contact.Liquid solutions for rust removal work best, because they can go where no sanding paper can reach, or your eye can miss some spots. Sanding works best if you want to repaint the entire panel surface, but should be done in a sanding chamber ideally, and that can be more work intensive to remove all panels, sand them, paint and then rebuild the machine.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2012, 09:15:39 am
content: Quote from: Boris_yo on January 03, 2012, 09:08:12 amYou sit facing east at sunrise and pray for enlightenmentYou note the terminals where the old cable was attached before you remove it and you attach the new cable to the same terminals.

author: Boris_yo
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2012, 09:35:41 am
content: Quote from: IanB on January 03, 2012, 09:15:39 amYes Ian it is logical, but what to do if i already removed old cable without marking or remembering which contacts which?

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2012, 09:40:10 am
content: Quote from: Boris_yo on January 03, 2012, 09:35:41 amThen you attach the live wire to the terminal marked L, the neutral wire to the terminal marked N, and the earth wire to the terminal marked with the earth or ground symbol.

author: Boris_yo
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2012, 09:52:24 am
content: What if terminals are not marked with N, L, G?

author: Boris_yo
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2012, 09:53:09 am
content: Quote from: ipman on January 03, 2012, 09:13:29 amThanks ipman, i have just uploaded HD video showing rust in close up (click on 720 at the bottom right of video):Sorry about video delaying but in the end you can see huge upper layer missing and rust in its place. I suppose i should not need solution here and just flatten edges?Ahh i have bought 400ml of enamel spray paint because seller told me he does not have less. I could have bought 200ml along with rust removal solution for the price of 400ml enamel spray paint probably. What would i use 400ml for?Maybe i can use file instead to remove rust?

author: ipman
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2012, 09:57:20 am
content: That looks very bad. Check if the rust penetrated the panels, and if it did .... that's not good.You can paint several layers of paint one over another, something there is corroding metal at very fast rate.The washing machine sits in our bathroom with a lot of humidity and ocasional splashing, but afther 7 or 8 years there is no rust.

author: Boris_yo
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2012, 09:59:50 am
content: Quote from: ipman on January 03, 2012, 09:57:20 amAlthough warranty expired a long time ago, i do not feel qualified to open panels and tinker there. I mean i can open but not tinker because i am affraid of electrical charge that machine can hold or can't it?

author: ipman
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2012, 12:11:00 pm
content: There's nothing dangerous apart from charged capacitors. But they just discharge if you leave it disconnected for half an hour to be sure.

author: Boris_yo
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2012, 01:36:32 pm
content: Here is a better detail of rust in between door and panel:Should i investigate more or just take care of it for aesthetic purposes?

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2012, 02:46:48 pm
content: It's just rust. The woman of the house would normally insist it be thrown out and replaced by a new one.

author: Boris_yo
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2012, 03:43:35 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on January 03, 2012, 02:46:48 pmWell there is a trade-in option worth of $130 in case i buy from that company new washing machine for $615... I could trade-in while my washing machine still works, otherwise i could carry on with removing rust and spraying it. I think 5 years is considered a good amount of time for INDESIT...

author: RJSC
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2012, 09:58:15 pm
content: Quote from: Boris_yo on January 03, 2012, 09:08:12 amWell, if you lived on most of Europe (like in Portugal, Spain, Germany, etc) you would only need to care about where to connect the Earth/Ground wire which is the one that connects to the metal cover, since the plugs here are not polarized (they can be inserted either way).To bad almost everyone in continental Europe decided to use the unpolarized German plug.However the French were half smart and added ground pin on the front of the socket to make it polarized. They should have put the pin on the plug to have the socket flat, with 3 holes.German plug:French plug:

author: ipman
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 04, 2012, 07:20:28 am
content: Indesit is not a low-end brand, so I would expect to last longer.Rust is not good, and will not stop until it will corrode the entire panel. If you intend to keep it for a while, clean the rust, coat it with anti-rust primer and then paint over. A car paint shop can do that, altough not very cheap.

author: Boris_yo
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 04, 2012, 09:15:45 am
content: Quote from: ipman on January 04, 2012, 07:20:28 amAnd you forgot to add that i will have to order transportation service to the garage. But since i have paint already, i only need to buy anti-rust solution.

author: G7PSK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 04, 2012, 09:57:32 pm
content: I suspect the problem is the RCD as you say you have had the same trouble with your fridge, the can sometimes become over sensitive due to mechanical wear on the latching mechanism.

author: Boris_yo
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 04, 2012, 11:20:59 pm
content: I have fixed the problem! It was in that extended cord because i noticed that it was often on the floor (probably wet) lying so i replaced it with another cord i had. Maybe water somehow got in pins' little gaps which caused internal corrosion, rust etc. otherwise it could just be N, L, G wires that needed fixing. I did not try that since who knows, maybe it could have spoiled machine so i played safe. Talking about being beginnerWhat is left to do is remove rust and spray paint.

author: Boris_yo
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2012, 11:11:30 am
content: Guys should i wear this anti-dust mask when working with spray paint since i am asthmatic?

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 11, 2012, 11:18:39 am
content: Check the documentation accompanying the dust mask, but I doubt that it will give much protection against paint vapors. Make sure to work in a well ventilated area and use a mask that provides protection against paint vapors if you feel you need a mask. Don't give yourself a false sense of safety by using a dust mask.

author: Boris_yo
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2012, 12:28:31 pm
content: Quote from: alm on January 11, 2012, 11:18:39 amNo informational booklet was found in plastic package but only "Protective Mask Against Dust FFP-2"When with anti-dust mask, i feel less oxygen is available in the mask and more carbon dioxide exhailed. If that mask does not do anything for protection against aerosol enamel spray paint, then i should better not wear it as it only would reduce oxygen.

author: ipman
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2012, 12:46:04 pm
content: The vapors are liquid, not dust. This mask will filter dust particles of a certain size or more, but not vapors.

author: ron
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2012, 12:58:26 pm
content: Quote from: ipman on January 11, 2012, 12:46:04 pmVapors are gases

author: ipman
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2012, 01:01:29 pm
content: Right, gases. Evaporated liquid.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2012, 02:57:36 pm
content: no they are "particles"i believe the semantics misconception is a "mist" its in liquid state flying around. about the mask, wearing it is better than not wearing anything esp asthmatic. i did the spray job varnish on doors i ended up varnish particles accumulated so thick all around my "nose hairs", quite a joke if i remember it. and quite a task to take it out.

author: plunger
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2012, 04:54:20 pm
content: People run cabling next to wires all the time. Electric showers are common in some places where they have no hot water heater3M makes a vapor odor mask. Don't know if it would help in this case. I have used it for household cleaning and it does block out the bleach smell.

author: Boris_yo
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2012, 07:03:23 pm
content: Maybe this one is better?http://amzn.to/zmu8vhThis one seems more for house cleaning:http://amzn.to/zSuc0g

author: Boris_yo
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2012, 08:27:05 pm
content: Guys, here are more 4 pictures of rusted areas (click on them to zoom):http://imgur.com/a/eLwSB#LsQmZI don't know whether i should remove cracks which sit fine actually but are a little raised. Maybe what is still tight i should not touch and just apply spray paint on it even if such areas will be not flat and higher?

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2012, 09:09:03 pm
content: I have used the epoxy method. Water feature with pump, and cable buried under concrete slab, and decorator has been and done the lovely patina paint on the concrete and fountain. Pump is both noisy and too low pressure. Short length of conduit and tape later ( tape to keep the epoxy in until cured) and a pack of 2 part clear epoxy and new pump is installed, along with all the cable on the new pump left coiled up in the pump well, so it can be taken out to clean it or to replace the pump using the same method.Rust needs to be removed, then all exposed metal treated and covered with paint. Any exposed area will rust again. Cracks need to be lightly sanded then given a light coat of paint to seal the area again. Inside panels i have had good results using boiled Linseed oil as a coating, it keeps the rust from spreading and slows it down. Drawback is the smell and the drips as it slowly flows down. Not an issue where it is unseen. Apply with a brush to all interior surfaces and it will make the panels last longer, as the inside often has a very poor paint finish with poor covering of metal.

author: Boris_yo
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 20, 2012, 10:53:46 am
content: Hello guys. Not perfect but will suffice. Finally painted for the first time the appliance and it looks much better now, although i could not completely flatten protruding rusted layers on the back edge of washing machine's lid:Here is what was a big rusty surface:Here is the gap between lid and panel after removing rust at the bottom which i was affraid to do because of a need to disassemble panel, which i did in the end thanks to one of member's suggestion in this thread:I have question as why most surface came out matte and least came out glossy? You can see transition in the middle:I shot a video as well so you can observe:Is it because of number of sprays i did i.e layers? I did according to instructions printed on the back of spray can telling to apply thin layer after thin layer and let paint dry instead of applying just a thick layer.By the way, this INDESIT washing machine served well for over 5+ years and is strong asrussian tank T50because this is model T50 as you can notice in the above pictures. Coincidence?

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 20, 2012, 11:43:27 am
content: The best spray paint to use if you want a hardwearing surface and gloss finish (without polishing) is epoxy based appliance paint.I've used it on a few projects and its way better than typical spray paint, especially for gloss finishes.It does also come in matt, if you need that for a project.Its only disadvantage is the number of colours available, there's only 10 or so colours in the brand i get. And some brands only have black and white.

author: G7PSK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 20, 2012, 03:38:51 pm
content: orange peel effect means that the paint was put on too thick a coat or dried too fast or both.

author: Boris_yo
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 20, 2012, 09:11:14 pm
content: Quote from: PsiEpoxy? Why enamel is not good? I asked seller which type of spray paint i need for painting washing machine and he said enamel. As for information, on the back sticker of a can it says that i should not use strong chemicals on spray-painted surface and if i want to spray-paint on sink or bathtub, i need to get another type of spray-paint.Quote from: G7PSK on March 20, 2012, 03:38:51 pmI guess spray-painting is a skill one must get more familiar with. Do you think if i used polishing material before paint dried up, i would get glossy surfaces?

author: G7PSK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2012, 08:38:27 am
content: The toughest paint that is easily sprayed apart from 2 part epoxy paint is chlorinated rubber it is very often used on plant and heavy industrial equipment, bridges etc. If you use either of these two you need positive air fed breathing equipment.

author: SgtRock
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 21, 2012, 10:05:35 am
content: Dear Boris:--Like you, I spend a lot of time fixing old equipment, trying to get a few more years, out of it. I learn, and it save money for me and my friends. I am very proud of the kind and patient folks on this blog, who have repeatedly helped anyone anywhere in the world with anything. I save old heavy duty construction extension cords, and use the good unscuffed parts to make new chords for appliances, and short household heavy duty extension cords. Best of luck with your washer. Run her till she drops."I wear suspenders and a belt. I am a security man all the way"Justin Wilson (The Cajun Cook) 1914 - 2001Best RegardsClear Ether

author: Boris_yo
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2012, 11:08:23 am
content: Dear Clear Ether:--I think sometimes trashing what seems to be useless things is not wise because someday you might need that part or smaller part of it. When this happens, you try to recall the moment you trashed the part which seemed to be useless and start knocking your head against the wall because if you kept it, it would save you time, energy and possible money. Moreover storing "useless" stuff can help you aquire new skills and improve existing. However there is other side of coin - "useless" stuff can accumulate in your house, take more space and impact available oxygen where you will be forced to dispose of it or build a shed.--Storing "useless" stuff is how gadgeteers start and later become inventors."Think Different"- AppleBest Regards,Boris C.Sergeant First Class

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2012, 11:46:17 am
content: Orange peel is from spraying too thick, many thin coats with enough drying time between coats is best. Not bad though, I have seen worse done by pro painters, and have done worse. A good paint for appliances is Hammerite smooth white, it is a close match and after it cures it is pretty hard wearing. Not many colours though, but the plus is that spraying years later with the same colour is indistinguishable from the original. The hammered finish is nice too.2 part epoxy paint is great with the right equipment, have sprayed a few cars that way, and am starting to improve. At least no matt finish, and not much orange peel.

author: sonicj
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2012, 12:19:51 pm
content: Quote from: Boris_yo on March 20, 2012, 10:53:46 ameven though the directions say thin layers, you still have to lay it down thick enough to produce a continuous wet coat. its tough to do with rattle cans. the tips with fan spray pattern help.overspray will cause a rough matte finish too.you can wetsand with something like 1000 or 1500 and try to lay down a nice even 'wet' top-coat.-sj