Educate myself on spectrum analyzers - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: JPortici
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 09, 2016, 08:50:37 am
content: Good day folks,At work we are starting to tamper with 433/860 MHz transceivers and we don't have a spectrum analyzer.I also have never really used one, not even at uni as crazy as it may sound, so now that we (I) have to choose the next lab tool i face myself with a serious lack of knowledge on the matter.I have read several threads and documents all over the web but i wasn't really able to find what i was looking for, or maybe i don't know what to look forI understand the basics, I undestand how the instrument work but i'm not sure what else i can do or what other info i can gather from the spectrum besides "good, there's the carrier"So, Question number one: Where can i find resources to educate myself? Talking about books, videos, ...Number two: what else do i need besides the SA to look at radio waves? A piece of wire directly on the BNC? An Antenna? which kind?I also have some difficult in choosing what to pick. Budget should be around 2-3k€.Beginner in this field, i obviously look at Rigol, usually works fairly good without costing too much, but the 815 goes to 1.5 GHz. We might want to play with gps in the future so 2 GHz minimum.The new siglent is pretty nice on paper, but it's new, it's siglent and i have been following the topic.I wouldn't buy used gear on this one.Ant that's that..Well for now, while i still look around and learn i think i can get one of those 15€ dvb dongles and use them with rtl-sdr, at least i should be able to know that there is the signal (or not)If sombody can give me a hint? Much Appreciated

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 09, 2016, 08:56:06 am
content: You can get the 1.5GHz Rigol with tracking gen for US$1,495There is a Rohde & Schwarz in your price range too, around US$2,800

author: Smith
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 09, 2016, 09:25:01 am
content: Look for some diferent companies that sell something you might consider based on specs/price. Ask them to come over and show them what you want to do, and ask them for what they think might be a good solution for you. Tell them you still consider other brands too, just be honest about that. They can probably lend you some demo tools to try them for yourself. Most companies have no problems with this and are eager to help you out / take your money.It not just handy for the tools, but they mostly come with some demo probes/leads etc. This is verry handy to test too, because probes and leads can become verry pricey too.

author: rf-loop
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 09, 2016, 09:34:15 am
content: You tell you need spectrum analyzerin work. Serious work? If you need do 860 MHz things seriously you need also access to its harmonics. With 1.5GHz spectrum you do not see even 860MHz 2rd harmonic!Some kind of minimum is that you see 3rd but better if 5rd (and in some cases it is mandatory). So you can check spurs-harmonics are in accepted levels. You need least 3GHz spectrum analyzer for any serious work with 860MHz. With this budget you can get very good second hand professional class spectrums instead of buying new toy hobby class "spectrum". If it is hobby and you are not responsible about anything with measured result data then you can play with toys or with limited features, eg without looking 3rd or 5rd harmonics levels.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 09, 2016, 09:52:09 am
content: Quote from: JPortici on April 09, 2016, 08:50:37 amThe most important other thing you need is "objectives". If you don't know what you want/need to measure and why, then measuringanythingis equally (in)effective.You should start by determining what your equipment must, legally,notdo. That will guide you in your dealings with the relevant local and international authorities, who are typically only interested in ensuring that you don't screw other parties.If that is too expensive (in time or money) then you should purchase pre-qualified industrial modules and/or purchasing the expertise of those with experience in this topic. RF is a different world to analogue, digital, and software.

author: pascal_sweden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 09, 2016, 10:49:52 am
content: Is there some tutorial available online, with an overall list of what different types of measurements you can do with a spectrum analyzer, and maybe also a short description on what and how.In this overall list, I would like to see the the following entries for each type of measurement.Overall list with multiple types of measurements, for each type of measurement the following entries:...Title of measurementDescription of measurementWhat to measure exactlyWhat is the center frequency of interestWhat is the actual bandwidth which you need (e.g. harmonics, etc.)How to measure with the spectrum analyzerWhich decision based on measurementWhich correction to make based on measurement...

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 09, 2016, 12:11:02 pm
content: Quote from: JPortici on April 09, 2016, 08:50:37 amThe best start is probably the book "Fundamentals of Spectrum Analysis" by C. Rauscher, one of the RF gurus at Rohde & Schwarz. I found a download of the1st6th Edition here:http://qtwork.tudelft.nl/~schouten/linkload/spectrumanalysis-rs.pdfhttp://www2.electron.frba.utn.edu.ar/~jcecconi/Bibliografia/05%20-%20Analizador%20de%20Espectro/Fundamentals_of_Spectrum_Analysis_Rauscher2008.pdfThat should give you all the basics.QuoteThat depends on your specific problem, what the UUT is and so on. In general, you probably want a direct connection (i.e. not via antenna), and you want good quality cables, adapters and passives (like attenuators). For tx testing, you probably also want a dummy load (where the output power can go into) and a suitable splitter to couple out a smaller amount of power for measurements.But again, the specifics depend on what exactly you want to do.Also, don't underestimate the cost factor for such "accessories".QuoteWell, it's B-brand, at the end of the day if you pay bargain-bin prices then you get bargain-bin products.QuoteYour loss, really, as your price range pretty much leaves you with new B-brand gear with average at best. For example, recently bought a 2nd hand Anritsu 13GHz spectrum analyzer, four years old and in pristine condition for less than £1200 delivered, offering a far better RF performance than anything you can get from the B-brands.And if you find that your requirements are more modest, there are various mobile communications testers like the R&S CMU200 and CRTU-RU which have a built-in SA that goes to 2.7GHz and which still offers an RF performance comparable to the B-brand analyzers, at prices often far below 1kEUR.There's also the Agilent E4406A VSA Transmitter Tester, which goes for litlle money these days and despite it's limitations (i.e. 10MHz span) could be a very cost-effective alternative, depending on what you want to do exactly.There are lots of 2nd hand options within your budget.QuoteOne of the cheap SDRs is always a worthwhile investment, no matter if you end up buying an SA or not. It makes a decent spectrum monitor, plus because of its flexibility it's a great tool for further signal analysis and demodulation on a separate PC.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 09, 2016, 12:18:14 pm
content: Quote from: JPortici on April 09, 2016, 08:50:37 amIf I where you I'd seriously consider buying used from an equipment dealer (with warranty ofcourse).

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 09, 2016, 01:19:32 pm
content: Quote from: pascal_sweden on April 09, 2016, 10:49:52 amWell, there's the book I mentioned in my previous reply to this thread, which goes into details as to how an SA works and what information it can pull out from a signal. But you still need a basic understanding of signal theory.Also, these days old-style Spectrum Analyzers are being replaced by Signal Analyzers which can do even more things than a common SA.QuoteIt doesn't work that way, what the best tool is depends very much on what your problem is, plus a range of other parameters that can't be put down into a simple table.There's a reason EE is a degree education

author: pascal_sweden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 09, 2016, 01:31:07 pm
content: Yes, I understand. But some kind of a cookbook would be nice!For oscilloscopes, they have this demo boards (Rigol, Siglent), with a bunch of signals, to demonstrate the different functions of your scope.Would it be too expensive to have such a demo board for a spectrum analyzer?Just like these DVB-T reception dongles are a cheap alternative for an actual spectrum analyzer, there might be a cheap counterpart goodie at the sender side

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 09, 2016, 02:03:02 pm
content: A spectrum analyser is easier. Just attach a piece of wire and go hunting for FM radio stations.

author: rf-loop
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 09, 2016, 02:44:00 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on April 09, 2016, 02:03:02 pmAnd switch on AM demodulator isnstead of FM demodulator, listen AM.

author: JPortici
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 09, 2016, 04:31:05 pm
content: Thank you for your answers..Yes, of course the first thing i should do is define what i have to do but given my lack of knowledge in the area i am not sure what my need are, hence this topicLet's see.. This is what i have to do: we are designing a car antitheft device and we want to add a remote to unlock it. This remote will operate in the 433 MHz band which can be used without restriction in our market's area. To achieve communication we are using ready made transceiver modules that make two microcontrollers talk with each other. First requirement is to have at least a working prototype and i need to see it they are transmitting or not.Then, in the future we may adapt the design for other markets, AKA reconfigure the transceiver to work in the 860MHz band.For now i think i'll go with the cheap sdr transceivers to see if there is signal, until i find a real solution. Maybe it's enough? but i want a real tool to use. A better tool is always the best choice in the end.About used instruments, not knowing spectrum analyzers makes me feel wary about getting a used one, as i don't know how to discern good from bad as with other equipment and most if not all salesman will sense your lack of knowledge and try to give you shit for cash (i know, i've been one for some time. in the end we all do that).Yes it should absolutely come with warranty and calibration, but from what i've read older equipment is much more delicate. Also it's slow (which is annoying. Not a huge deal breaker but, you know..)I guess i'll make some calls monday, but second hand equipment is getting very pricey around hereI almost forgot... Thanks for the PDFreading right now. very useful so far..

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 09, 2016, 06:13:18 pm
content: Quote from: JPortici on April 09, 2016, 04:31:05 pmSensible.QuoteYou can use a simple $15 SDR dongle for that, and, depending on the modulation scheme, it might also let you decode what is being transmitted.QuoteBy "reconfigure the transciever" I hope you mean "use a different ready-made transciever".

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 09, 2016, 06:39:53 pm
content: Quote from: JPortici on April 09, 2016, 04:31:05 pmWell, I know a forum where you could ask for helpQuoteWhich is even more important you know what you want and are well prepared before entering any sales negotiations.QuoteYes, it is delicate and slow, at least if you buy a boat anchor from the late '70s. But if you stay within the 2000-or-newer time frame then you'll find plenty of fast and non-delicate instruments that are mostly self-calibrating and need very little manual adjustment (if at all).And getting a 2nd hand brand name SA calibrated is a no-brainer, while most calibration facilities will struggle to calibrate something like a Rigol or Siglent SA simply because of the lack of proper maintenance documentation. Plus many won't touch Chinese B-brands for other reasons anyways.QuoteIt will be, if you go to some of the many used T&M gear resellers that want ludicrous prices for 2nd hand gear. If you do a bit of leg work, research options and keep calm then you can find a lot of great deals on ebay, even from business sellers which offer warranty.But since you said you're using ready-made RF modules anyways you won't need the best RF performance to verify that your modules work as intended, so one of the cheap communications testers like the R&S CMU200 or CRTU should be perfectly fine, and they often cost little money.QuoteYou're welcome! It's still one of the best books about spectrum analyzers I've read.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 09, 2016, 07:27:49 pm
content: adding to Wuerstchenhund's reading, google the followingFundamentals of Spectrum Analysis filetype:pdfprovides a good list, including an updated pdf to the R&S document.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 09, 2016, 09:02:52 pm
content: Quote from: steverino on April 09, 2016, 07:27:49 pmThe one in the link is the 1st Edition from 2001, the book has seen several more since then. Here's the 6th Edition from 2008:http://www2.electron.frba.utn.edu.ar/~jcecconi/Bibliografia/05%20-%20Analizador%20de%20Espectro/Fundamentals_of_Spectrum_Analysis_Rauscher2008.pdfThere's also R&S's Spectrum Analyzer Primer, which seems to be a heavily compressed version of the book:http://mwrf.com/site-files/mwrf.com/files/uploads/2013/05/SpecAnFundamentals3.pdf

author: G0HZU
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 09, 2016, 09:13:33 pm
content: HP/Agilent provide some good info too. HP released a lot of papers about spectrum analysers back in the 1970s and these were all variants of application note AN150.Over the years the AN150 series has been updated and I think it's well worth reading. I studied these notes a LOT when I was younger and just starting out in RF design.Here's a recent version although you can also search for AN150-x where x is a number as this leads to some of the older/classic versions of AN150 that deal with various aspects of spectrum analysis in more detail.http://cp.literature.agilent.com/litweb/pdf/5952-0292.pdfHowever, you really can't beat having a decent tutor to show the basics and also to show you the common traps/mistakes people make with a spectrum analyser

author: pascal_sweden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 09, 2016, 09:24:24 pm
content: Thanks for the share about AN150.Could you also give a recommendation on a specific older AN150-x edition with the most deep technical coverage? Or did some versions go deeper in one topic, and other versions deeper in another topic?Would be cool to find out the specific version that went most deepest of all AN150 editions

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 10, 2016, 08:05:25 pm
content: Quote from: pascal_sweden on April 09, 2016, 09:24:24 pmAN = Application NoteANs are documents that quickly discuss a specific topic. Sometimes they barely scratch the surface, in other cases they go a a bit deeper, but if you're looking for something that pretty much starts from Adam and Eve then ANs are the wrong type of document.If you want to dig deep then read the book I posted the download link to.

author: G0HZU
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 10, 2016, 09:35:58 pm
content: QuoteThe AN150 series of app notes from HP pretty much defined how people went about making 'better' measurements with a spectrum analyser for at least a generation. I can only assume that you have never read them.The whole point of these application notes was to improve the awareness of the user so they can make a better measurement with a spectrum analyser. I think HP/Agilent are far and away the best at understanding and communicating with the customer and I think this is why these app notes were released. They are often 50 pages long and deal with various aspects of analyser usage in each app note.The content in the R&S book you linked to will have been influenced by these classic application notes, either directly or indirectly.

author: pascal_sweden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2016, 02:59:51 am
content: I downloaded the sixth edition of "Fundamentals of Spectrum Analysis", as recommended by Wuerstchenhund. Nice book!Note: They sell the hardcopy of this book in the Rohde&Schwartz online bookstore:http://www.books.rohde-schwarz.com/go/rohdeschwarz/en/home/store.xhtmlBut the hardcopy which they sell seems to be a much older edition (4th edition).Rather weird that they don't update the bookstore with the latest editionI also found the following tutorials from Tektronixhttp://www.tek.com/learning/spectrum-analyzer-tutorial

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2016, 05:23:10 am
content: Quote from: G0HZU on April 10, 2016, 09:35:58 pmActually, I did read the AN150 Series and have used them myself as reference since the '80s. And I did not say they were not helpful, which they most certainly were. That wasn't the point.QuoteThat is true, at least to some extend, but you're completely missing the point, which is that even the 90 pages in the Agilent AN150 aren't really a lot for such a complex topic, and I really would have expected you being able to appreciate that a 200+ page document about a certain topic is more likely to go into more details than a 90 page or even 50 page app note.I certainly didn't suggest to not read the AN150s, so no need to become so defensive.QuoteThat may well be the case, but again, no-one argued otherwise.

author: JPortici
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2016, 12:26:25 pm
content: No, i meant "reconfigure" as in this specific case we are using the mrf49xa transceiver from microchip and the same part will work in three different bands. (433, 860, 915) The balun needs readjustments of courseSo, to recap, for now the sdr dongle will do, while i look around for a good deal on a calibrated used instrument.As for bandwidth, I didn't consider higher order harmonics because the plan is to only use ready made transceivers (and i assume they are proven designs that work as they should. Bad speculation? i think they would be banished by the community if they didn't work, right?) so i though that 2 GHz would be sufficient, but i certainly won't say no to three.Just to be fair, i know that chinese b-brands usually are what they are in terms of quality and documentation, which are both of extreme importance, but i wouldn't automatiacally rule them out.. look at siglent: siglent designs and rebrands for many others and those products are still well built, good quality instruments.. maybe not the best, but not as bad as you would think if they didn't have the shiny name.Just like when you get a mercedes, open the hood and find out that it has a renault engine

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2016, 12:38:29 pm
content: Quote from: JPortici on April 11, 2016, 12:26:25 pmMake sure you understand what is necessary to certify your equipment so that it can used legally in destination countries. In the UK the general principle is that it is legal to sell/buy items even if they cannot be used legally.QuoteBut you are changing the balun. Are youcertainthe baluncannotaffect the harmonics? Don't forget thatanynon-linearitywillgenerate harmonics. Any magentic material will be non-linear.Quick sanity check: what are the IP2 and IP3 specifications, why are they important, and what will be their effect in your circuit?

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2016, 03:30:47 pm
content: Quote from: JPortici on April 11, 2016, 12:26:25 pmI wouldn't rule them out, if it was for hobby use. B-brands are perfectly fine for that.For business use however, they aren't really worth the money, and can quickly cost you a lot more during their lifetime than what you saved with the initial purchase price.QuoteYes, Siglent scopes are rebranded by many other brands, but most of them are B-brands that have no own hardware design/production facilities, and often a reputation that is even worse than Siglent.The only big brand that rebadges Siglent scopes is LeCroy which buys Siglent SDS1000CML/CFL scopes and SDG1000 and SDG5000 AWGs and resells them as WaveAce and WaveStation, and these rebadges have already lead to very negative customer feedback because the previous models (WaveAce 100/200) were increadibly buggy, and because Siglent was unable to fix the bugs in a timely manner LeCroy had to take back lots of them, which didn't really help their reputation. The current Siglent rebadge scopes LeCroy offers are a bit better and less buggy because LeCroy now pushes Siglent much harder to get things in order, but there are all the other Siglent products where no-one pushes them for fixing bugs, which is why we have things like the SDS2000 debacle.The only really good Siglent scope is the SDS3000 which outside China is sold by LeCroy as WaveSurfer 3000, and which has been developed with leCroy support on the hardware side and where Siglent is kept off the software (which comes directly from LeCroy). The result is a great scope, at the moment probably the best in its class. And it's fully supported by LeCroy like any other LeCroy scope.But that doesn't makes other Siglent products any better. You still get a product with decent hardware, bug-ridden software written by people who have no idea how software development should work, a complete lack of proper maintenance documentation and poor product support.If you can live with hobby-grade equipment in your business be my guest.

author: G0HZU
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2016, 03:53:17 pm
content: QuoteI'm defending the AN150 series because you appeared to dismiss it in your earlier post.QuoteFor many people these documents do start at the very beginning. I really don't think you have read the full series of these documents because you would realise that AN150 wasn't just one document that got revised over the years.If you don't believe me then look at the version of AN150 that is dedicated to measuring classic AM and FM waveforms with a spectrum analyser.Then compare what your R&S book says on these subjects. (close to nothing)Try the same with pulsed modulation. The AN150 dedicated to measuring pulsed modulation is a classic document probably studied by many thousands of engineers. The version I read at work is probably 40 years old now.We had the whole AN150 series from HP and each one was in a coloured booklet. There were about a dozen different AN150 documents each covering a specialist subject to do with making better measurements with a spectrum analyser. eg one AN150 for tracking gen use, one for external mixer use, noise measurements, distortion etc etc.QuoteThat is you in a nutshell. You judge things by numbers.I don't know or care how many pages there are in all of the AN150-x series if you totalled it all up. These are classic documents. Not everyone will want to read them because some are so old now and the content doesn't cover analysers with a digital IF. But the newer docs from Agilent do. They probably attach AN150 to some of them out of sentimentality but the newer versions of AN150 aren't meant to replace the whole classic series.But I will repeat again that for a beginner you can't beat having a decent tutor to talk you through this stuff with you both in front of a suite of real test gear. The app notes and books aren't enough on their own. They try to cater for all needs/abilities from hobbyist through basic technician through to engineering level. This will probably make the material appear quite daunting for some people unless you have a tutor to help.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2016, 05:31:33 pm
content: Quote from: G0HZU on April 11, 2016, 03:53:17 pmI did not dismiss them, so please keep your biting reflex under control.QuoteFor many engineers at the beginning is an education in basic RF principles, without you will have a very hard time understanding what the HP AN's are telling you.QuoteYeah, this is why I wrote that I read theSeriesOh well...And because I read them I do know that, while the HP ANs were great resources most engineers kept for later reference (I also did back then), they were still Application Notes, i.e. with a somewhat limited depth (many topics discussed in the various ANs could easily fill a book). Which made them ideal for quick referencing. There's also the fact that the AN150s weren't really updated and while the general principles remain true, also contain outdated information.And because I read them I also know that Agilent later decided to make ANs more 'appealing' to a wider audience, so AN150 went from a Series of different topics to become a simple overview about Spectrum Analysis. And that overview is the one you linked:http://cp.literature.agilent.com/litweb/pdf/5952-0292.pdfand that is pretty much the same as the R&S SA Primer I linked earlier.QuoteSure. Now tell me, which of the old AN150's talk about FFT or signal processing? It's been a while since I went through the HP ones but I can't remember any that discuss such topics, aside from the small section in Agilent's/Keysight's modernized variant.QuoteThat may well be true but it certainly isn't the only document.Besides, I'm not saying the old AN150s shouldn't be read (which is what you seem to imply). I'm saying they aren't the best start if you want to get a start into Spectrum Analysis (the topic of this thread, remember?). The new AN150 and the R&S Primer are better suited for that, but both contain less information than the book I pointed to.

author: G0HZU
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2016, 09:49:25 pm
content: QuoteThe R&S book you linked to is fine but you don't seem to grasp that AN150 is aimed at the customer and it tries to cover classic topics relevant to the customer and it tries to deliver this information in a way that has the best chance of helping customers across all skill levels.So there are documents devoted to AM and FM modulation. Also a very useful document on making field strength measurements. The R&S book doesn't cover practical stuff like this. It does cover pulse modulation but I would suggest that the AN150 document on pulse modulation is written better (as in it will appeal to users on multiple skill levels), and it has more equations and more plots despite being 40 years old.Do you see the difference now? I'm not dismissing the R&S book, I think it is a good book but it doesn't replace AN150 in the way you imply. Note that I'm not suggesting that AN150 replaces the R&S book either.There are other Agilent app/product notes aimed at advanced use of a modern spectrum analyser but they don't carry the AN150 logo any more. These app notes are aimed at advanced users and focus on specific issues and limitations in a modern spectrum analyser.I can post up these notes but (according to your reasoning) these can't possibly go into as much detail as the R&S book because the R&S book has more pages than any individual app note and an application note is 'just' an application note =AN and not a 'deep' book with 200 pages

author: G0HZU
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2016, 11:21:59 pm
content: G0HZU: For many people these AN150 documents do start at the very beginning.QuoteJust start at the BEGINNING and read the raw AN150 from >40 years ago. I found a familiar version here:http://hpmemoryproject.org/an/pdf/an_150.pdfIt is incredibly dated now but I'm still not aware of anything that introduces the concept of the swept superhet spectrum analyser as elegantly as this app note. It's a wonderfully written introduction aimed at the novice user. The 'Adam and Eve' stuff about the obsolete 'swept tuned analyser' and the clunky old 'real time system' adds value because it helps show the reader the benefits (and some limitations) of the classic superhet topology used in modern analysers.I'm not sure it can get any more basic than this...It had to be basic back in those days because the vast majority of (potential) customers would have been novices themselves even if they were fully qualified EEs.Today, it's different because so many people are familiar with spectrum analysis and so some of the stuff in that early AN150 doc will only be necessary for the complete novice. But there are loads more AN150 docs to choose from covering lots of topics.Here's one covering AM and FM modulation. It's very old but some of the theory is timeless anyway.http://hpmemoryproject.org/an/pdf/an_150-1a.pdfHere's the one discussing measurements of pulsed signals with a gradual introduction to the more detailed stuff:http://hpmemoryproject.org/an/pdf/an_150-2.pdfWonderful stuff... the author uses lots of text and diagrams with only the basic equations until the later sections. written in 1971!Here's the one on making basic field strength measurements with a spectrum analyser.http://hpmemoryproject.org/an/pdf/an_150-10.pdfIt's short but it is packed with basic theory. It lacks some stuff to do with modern EMC measurements (eg quasi peak measurements etc) but is still worth a read for some people who maybe want to do a bit more than just blindly play with crude sniffer antennas.QuoteThose old AN150s are over 40 years old. What did you expect to see? The DSP/FFT stuff didn't begin to appear in the mainstream GHz analysers until the later models like the classic HP8566B and HP8568B. These classic high end analysers were deep in development at around the same time the early AN150s were being released but not on sale for a few more years. There are newer app notes available that cover today's generation of analysers with a digital IF.Eg see this AN150 from 2004. It's only a basic introduction to a vector signal analyser with a digital IF but I'm not sure if you will complain (again) and criticise it for being too simple or too difficult for non EEs. You seem to be difficult to please...http://www.hpmemoryproject.org/an/pdf/an_150-15.pdf

author: G0HZU
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 12, 2016, 12:09:01 am
content: Here's a complete? list of HP application notes released over the years.This stuff was like 'porn in the mail' to an RF engineer in the days before the internet. There's lots of good stuff here.Make sure you scroll down to find the complete list as the first list you see are just recent additions that have been added.http://www.hpmemoryproject.org/ressources/resrc_an_01.htm#The AN57-x is a good series of documents on noise figure measurements using a spectrum analyser. Definitely worth reading!If you want to create some software or a spreadsheet to handle all the calculations to do this stuff yourself then I recommend reading this app note from R&S.https://cdn.rohde-schwarz.com/pws/dl_downloads/dl_application/application_notes/1ma178/1MA178_2e_NoiseFigure.pdfThis gives worked examples which will help prove/troubleshoot these tricky equations. I used a similar app note from R&S a few years back when I wrote some software to use with my hot/cold noise source and spectrum analyser here at home. The worked examples are very useful!

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 12, 2016, 11:07:24 am
content: I'm certainly not addressing every point as it would be useless, as I'm not disagreeing with you in the way you seem to believe.Quote from: G0HZU on April 11, 2016, 09:49:25 pmI never said the book replaces AN150, that is just in your head. All I said is that the book is a better start (i.e. beginning where to read) for someone wanting to learn more about spectrum analysis. There's nothing wrong with the AN150, and I'd certainly recommend reading them, but I don't believe they are a particularly great first start.Note that I'm not suggesting that AN150 replaces the R&S book either.Fine. But then I never assumed you did.I told you, keep that biting reflex in check

author: pascal_sweden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 12, 2016, 12:06:30 pm
content: Maybe the best thing is, to just read both documents. Problem solved. No discussions anymore.Both Wuerstchenhund Ltd. and All The Others Company are happy

author: 4cx10000
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 12, 2016, 12:15:03 pm
content: QuoteExcellent idea!!

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 12, 2016, 02:28:55 pm
content: Quote from: pascal_sweden on April 12, 2016, 12:06:30 pmRead everything you can get your hands on. Seriously! Especially when it comes to complex topics, you will often find some interesting details even in overall poor documents.As I said it before, my recommendation is to*start*with the R&S book, simply because I think it makes a very good entry into the topic (and when I was still teaching most of my students agreed that its a good starting point, so there's some basis to my assumption). But that's merely a starting point, not the end of the journey.

author: G0HZU
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 12, 2016, 04:51:48 pm
content: Quote from: pascal_sweden on April 12, 2016, 12:06:30 pmYep, maybe we should simply redress the balance and allow me to highlight a few limitations wrt the R&S book and let the reader decide if it 'deeply' covers everything they might want to know about spectrum analysers. (as per the title of the thread)So having skimmed through the R&S book I'll say this:If you want to understand the history and architecture of spectrum analysers throughout the last 50 years right up to today then the R&S book is very weak on this.If you JUST want to see how a modern vector signal analyser works (these are the spectrum analysers and SDRs of TODAY) then don't read the R&S book. (you can try but you won't find anything but have a look at AN150-15 from HP instead)http://cp.literature.agilent.com/litweb/pdf/5989-1121EN.pdfIf you want to read up on how to use a classic swept spectrum analyser to demodulate and display real world signals then the R&S book is the wrong book to use because it doesn't cover these topics in any detail. It doesn't even cover how to display or understand AM and FM signals. Try reading the relevant AN150-1a doc as a start.If you want to read up on how the latest generation of vector analysers (or SDRs?) can demodulate analogue or digital signals in DSP then the R&S book is the wrong book to read. You can try but you won't find anything as it barely scratches the surface. But try reading the relevant (second) chapter of AN150-15 to see if it helps.http://cp.literature.agilent.com/litweb/pdf/5989-1121EN.pdfIf you want to study spectrum analysers/analysis 'deeply' then the book from R&S is the wrong book because you can't cover this subject 'deeply' in just 200 pages using large fonts and big pictures and the presentation style of a typical degree thesis.If you are just an average hobbyist with an average education and you are a novice wrt spectrum analysers then I think you will find the first 20 pages of the R&S book will shove a lot of equations and waveforms at you that you may find a bit daunting. The lack of pictures of what a spectrum analyser looks like, what basic things it can measure in these first few pages may surprise you.The brief bit that covers FFT looks like something an inexperienced graduate would write. It's OK but it doesn't really deliver to the reader IMO. Contrast this to the wonderful writing style (and depth of content) in AN150-15 for example.The section that does attempt to describe the basic block diagram of a spectrum analyser is poorly presented and lacks detail and it doesn't flow well. Not enough pages, not enough background info compared to something like AN150.The IF processing section is good with some useful stuff but the section on analogue/digital/FFT filters is quite basic/short. It's good stuff but it isn't 'deep' stuff.The section on the various detector types is very short when compared to AN150 or other Agilent app notes. Again, not enough diagrams, not enough quality (or experience?) delivered from the text. It still would be OK for a lot of users but Wuerstchenhund promised us 'deep stuff' compared to an HP application note.The section on 'overloading' and how to prevent it is useful basic stuff and it's good to see it in the book. It's hard to describe this stuff adequately in text and pictures anyway. I would have preferred to see a two tone test used here though because it would show third order distortion effects at IF overload.The phase noise section is fine/OK. The section on distortion is also OK and so is the section on dynamic range. None of it is special or deep though. The diagrams often look like they were created in a hurry and this lets down the presentation IMO.The section on spurious levels is OK if a little short/basic but it simply doesn't have enough diagrams. This stuff was produced with a strict time budget IMO.There's a detailed section on measurement uncertainty and you can tell that the author (finally) put some background effort into writing this. This section gives worked examples and it appears to be pretty good. I'd argue that it's out of balance with the rest of the book in this respect. However, the uncertainty analysis doesn't cover advanced material that you would find in a freebie product app note for a modern Agilent analyser.The section on pulsed signals is quite good and quite well presented. Again, it seems out of balance with the rest of the book in this respect.This book is still a good book overall but it isn't the panacea that Wuerstchenhund paints it out to be. Large parts of it are presented like a typical degree thesis with only moderate chunks of text and just a few (or no) hastily prepared diagrams for each section. The section on 'detectors' is a good example of this.The worst thing is that is doesn't deal with common modulation types and it doesn't describe or cover what can be done using today's vector signal/spectrum analysers or modern SDRs.Put it another way... If I'd gone out and paid good money for this fairly brief book (decent technical books are not cheap) then I think I would be disappointed because this book is NOT a 'deep' book about spectrum analysis. It really does come across to me in a degree thesis style rather than any kind of reference book or font of knowledge/experience.