Any experience with Atten AT7016, 1 channel, 10MHz Oscilloscope? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: Mr. Coffee
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2014, 03:03:56 pm
content: Here is a link:http://www.aliexpress.com/store/product/10MHz-Analogue-Oscilloscope-ATTEN-AT7016-Freeshipping/404182_697711955.htmlI actually paid a little less for the one I just ordered yesterday. I have not seen any reviews, but I do not expect too much. I just hope it does what it says it will do and holds up. I wanted a small, cheap scope for my very small bench. I can get good prices on used name brands, but they are much larger. This will be for audio through medium wave RF.I'll post an initial review when I get it and try it out.Dimensions: 190 x 130 x 270 mm.2 kg.There is a typo on the webpage. The accelerating voltage is 1200, not 120V.

author: xwarp
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2014, 03:14:07 pm
content: I think you could have done cheaper and much better bandwidth wise on ebay or even craigslist.(just my opinion)

author: Mr. Coffee
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2014, 04:09:27 pm
content: I haven't been able to find any cheaper, new, ultra compact scopes. All I've seen are used (read "older, and larger") scopes. Even 5MHz bandwidth is plenty for what I will use it for. 10 MHz is a bonus.I have a couple 50 MHz for the little CB work I do. This will fit on my bench easily and is cheap enough to throw in my truck to do some testing and not worry about it. I paid just enough for my Rigol DS1052E to kind of sweat that a little, any my Tek 2225 takes up a lot of space by comparison.

author: xwarp
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2014, 04:22:45 pm
content: Oh ok, I did not realize that size was the big issue.

author: Mr. Coffee
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2014, 05:19:07 pm
content: Yeah, my bench is about 2-1/2 feet deep and three feet wide. I gotta put up the scope to get out parts and solder stuff, then put up those tools and get the scope back out.

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2014, 06:35:33 pm
content: Mr Coffee,These are badge engineered scopes and are available under several brand names.The good news: They are usually pretty inexpensive and relatively compact.The bad news: They are not exactly a quality product and problems are quite common. The time-base selector switch is a common failure and is not readily available as a spare part. This is old school electronics though, so most other faults can be repaired by the owner.I believe I have the schematics for these scopes in my archives. They come in two formats....horizontal and vertical. I bought a pile of new faulty Digimess MO-10 scopes that are the horizontal version of your scope for GBP25 the lot ! Most had failed tubes due to being dropped during transport. As a result I have spare parts coming out of my ears though :-)This is a basic beginners CRO and I use them in projects that just need a CRO for display purposes, such a component testers and curve tracers. As long as you don't expect too much from it, you will be just fine and, unlike Digital Scopes, you can often exceed the bandwidth specifications ..... at the cost of amplitude accuracy and possibly some trigger instabilityUpdate:I have added the scopes schematics. The range are just variations on this basic design. Some have a different time-base circuit. The latest time-base selector switch is the one that fails due to contact resistance.

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2014, 07:36:10 pm
content: Your post reminded me of the MO10's that I have languishing around my various storage areasAs I stated, I bought a whole new crate of them. The crate had been dropped so some took the impact badly and the tubes shattered. Others were fine and all are otherwise undamaged. I think I had 10 in the crate and Digimess just charged me GBP25 delivered for the lot in order to get shot of themThat worked out at GBP2.50 each so I could not resist.I bought 10 new CRT's at $15 each delivered from China but some of them failed to make the journey in one pieceSuch is life. I have yet to find time to fit the CRT's into the broken units but they are there if I need them.I attach three pictures for your interest. I have found MO10's hiding all over the place

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2014, 07:49:53 pm
content: You should do a kit of a scope and a CRT as a sale item. Scope, some assembly required, ideal as a second scope after you fix it.

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2014, 08:07:52 pm
content: Conrad also sell these scopes in the upright format under the Brand Voltcraft and model number 610/2http://www.conrad-electronic.co.uk/ce/en/product/122413/Voltcraft-6102-1-Channel-Oscilloscope-Bandwidth-0-DC-10-MHzThe manual is available for download and the schematic used to be provided on the web site download pageI will see if I can track it down for you

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2014, 08:36:10 pm
content: The bad news...... Conrad appear to have removed the schematic for the vertical version of the scope.The good news.... the Caltek CS10V is the same oscilloscope and I found that schematic for you. It is attached for your informationThese scopes are also available direct from China.http://lzoscilloscope.en.alibaba.com/product/1365366897-220110944/Factory_Price_ST16A_10MHz_Oscilloscope_Oscilloscope_For_Student_For_car_and_For_Industry_repair_with_Oscilloscope_Probe.html

author: Mr. Coffee
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 29, 2014, 12:16:10 am
content: Wow, thanks, Aurora!I don't expect much for the money paid but am still looking forward to this little analog. It will be nice to have a compact that I can kind of beat around. All my other scopes are too big, too expensive, or both, to haul around, leave on the bench with paint, metal chips, etc, flying, or to loan out to my audiophile/musician friend.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 29, 2014, 04:08:45 am
content: It is the same unit as the Jaycar 'scope I bought a few years ago---cost me $A135 at the time.The idea was to use it to fix my BWD,which has about the same bandwidth,but a nice big display in a not much larger package.As it happened,I did find the BWD fault,(loss of triggering) but the faulty parts were so hard to get at,that I put it on the back burner,& just used the Jaycar.You can do a lot of good work with a basic CRO like this---I even took it to work,as they didn't have a working 'scope,only an old dead Tek 545B,with no normal plugins,only a spec an.It was very useful for troubleshooting in low frequency & DC circuits.Used it at home to look at up to 27MHz signals at reduced amplitude,look at Engine Control Module pulses in cars,etc.( not as easy as using a battery DSO,but useable).Things that go wrong:-(1) The knobs are rubbish,& will break after a while---just find,or buy some generic knobs,& all is well.(2) the plastic shaft of the focus pot broke off,but it is hollow,so you can stick a screwdriver into what remains & set the focus OK.(3)The vert input BNC came unscrewed,& broke its connecting wire off---The thread isn't long enough,so I replaced it with a generic BNC from the junk box.(4) V1 or V2 (can't remember which) in the EHT supply failed.(Think the "D880"stands for 2SD880.)Not readily available,but there were two transistors in the same packages in a salvaged TV SMPS,which looked like they might be suitable.I was going to use them both,but botched the desoldering on one,so just used the remaining one to replace the faulty device.---two different transistors,but there's not much to lose!Away it went,EHT back to normal,CRO back in service.So there you go--a bit "rough-n-ready",easy to fix,& quite useful .You paid too much,though--you could have had mine for a lot less!

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 29, 2014, 09:51:06 am
content: I used to work in an Electronics Emporium during my Student years and we were an agent for Hameg equipment so sold many of their oscilloscopes. Students often could not afford the Hameg prices though, so we sought a budget oscilloscope to offer as an alternative.We found such a budget oscilloscope being marketed by an British company and it was very similar in design and electronics to the OP's model. All standard through hole components for ease of repair and simple enough that it was reasonably reliable. The budget oscilloscopes Achilles heel was its HT winding on the mains transformer and the potential divider ladder in the CRT circuit. The potential divider failed as some resistors were operating at the limit of their thermal specifications and just failed with age. The transformer fault was more serious as it effectively scrapped the scope if it could not be 'fixed'. The problem was that the HT winding was too high a voltage for the transformer design. The manufacturer produced the full HT voltage with the transformer (1200V?) and used a single HT rectifier diode on the output. They should have used a better transformer or a lower voltage HT winding, plus a voltage multiplier, to obtain the required 1200V. The HT winding would commonly arc across to the heater winding through the inadequate interwinding insulation. One solution was a transformer rewind by a professional company and we offered this as a service to owners for a while, but it was expensive. I owned one of the budget scopes prior to purchasing my Hameg HM204 and mine was bought cheaply with a failed transformer.BOTCH warning......At the time I could not afford a transformer rewind so I decided on a 'botch' repair to get the scope working (I was a poor student after all). I purchased a Radio Spares 6.3V filament transformer cheaply from my Saturday job boss. I fitted the filament transformer in place of the filament winding on the failed oscilloscope transformer and left the unwanted winding disconnected. The HT had been arcing to ground via the filament winding. I effectively isolated the filament winding and so removed the HT path to ground. The 'botch' fix worked a treat and the budget scope worked fine until I sold it to a friend some years later. He was aware of the 'botch' repair and last I heard the unit was still working some 25 years later ..... My botches last !That little scope had a 10MHz bandwidth and provided me with a very useful CRO capability during my early student years. It was simple but little different to the respected oscilloscopes from companies like Heathkit that served their owners very well in the 1960's and 1970's. Used sensibly they are fine for basic experimentation and diagnostic work on circuits that are within their bandwidth capability. I even have a DIY oscilloscope in the attic that was part of an Open University electronics course....as part of the course, you built a very neat little oscilloscope and then used it in experiments. In the process of building the oscilloscope you learned about how all the elements of such a unit worked. Scopes contain LT & HT power supplies, ramp generators, amplifiers, drivers and a static deflection CRT.... all useful knowledge to a student. I shall have to dig it out and photograph it.

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 29, 2014, 10:21:10 am
content: Here are the pictures of the DIY oscilloscope that formed part of an Electronics Course.I did not build it but I do have all the course books that went with it so one day I will fire it up (a couple of components appear to be missing) It was built by my Wife's late husband and is constructed on perforated board and not PCB. There are no tracks on the board, you just insert solder posts and point to point wire them on the rear of the board. A kind of DIY PCB

author: Mr. Coffee
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 29, 2014, 12:58:42 pm
content: @Aurora: What a neat little unit. It's amazing how little circuitry it takes to build a very basic scope...or how much it takes to build a top of the line unit. I have an old Eico 460 all tube/valve scope from the '60s, and it has barely any more parts in it than my HP400H AC voltmeter, and it works pretty well for what it is.By comparison, I took apart a Tektronix 453 from about 1969, and there are like more than 1000 capacitors...just the capacitors! Of course, it was a 50 MHz 2 channel that would do your troubleshooting and cook your breakfast at the same time.Quote from: vk6zgo on April 29, 2014, 04:08:45 am

author: GreyWoolfe
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 29, 2014, 01:47:22 pm
content: Aurora, do you have room for a rolling o-scope cart? I made one out of scrap wood out of the garage and only paid money for some nice rubber casters. The cart can go anywhere out of the way and be brought in when needed. Just a thought, not knowing your space constraints.

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 29, 2014, 05:05:22 pm
content: I have just dug out the complete Electronics training course notes that detailed the construction of the Oscilloscope. I was wrong, it was not the OU who produced the course, it was the British National Radio & Electronics School. The complete course cost GBP220 in 1984, presumably including the required parts ?From what I can see, the constructor received training modules that required them to calculate the correct values of the required components in a particular part of the oscilloscope, whilst also learning about the function of that section at the same time. The constructor then submitted their test paper and partial schematic for marking and tutor comment. A clever distance learning course which actually produced a useable instrument at the end of the first half. The instrument was then used in the second half of the course for practical experiments. I have all the training modules for the course, Gary's (the constructor) notes on component values, and his test papers that have the tutors comments and corrections added.When all 12 oscilloscope construction modules were completed, the constructor had basically taken a schematic diagram that contained no component details and had populated it with the correct values. He then had a perf' board layout with component positions only. An inter-component wiring wiring plan had to be created.Construction could then begin in earnest before the next phase of the course began.I have no idea if such practical distance learning training courses still exist anywhere in the world, but it was certainly an interesting looking approach to teaching Electronic component and circuit theory.I shall have to peruse the course notes and see what I have forgotten over the years !Pictures of the documentation and Gary's work attached.

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 29, 2014, 05:08:55 pm
content: The circuits

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 29, 2014, 05:14:30 pm
content: The final schematic provided by the training establishment when the constructor has got to module 12. This was to enable checking of correct values and a tidy circuit for fault tracing etc.

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 29, 2014, 05:34:15 pm
content: I just did a quick search on the British National and Electronics School and Google immediately showed some hits. The Lernakit oscilloscope was originally a valve kit ! It seems the courses were well thought of, but expensive.http://www.vintage-radio.net/forum/showthread.php?t=62836

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 29, 2014, 07:41:43 pm
content: Schematic for the valve version of the Lernascope attached....... a CRO using only 2 valves and a CRT

author: Mr. Coffee
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 01, 2014, 02:08:11 pm
content: That's a cute little tube/valve scope. Small for the era.(BTW, I always say "tube" in the USA, but "valve" is, in my opinion, the more accurate term. It is an electronic valve inside an evacuated tube, after all.)

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 01, 2014, 03:50:12 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Coffee on May 01, 2014, 02:08:11 pmIsn't a transistor also a 'valve'?

author: madshaman
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 01, 2014, 04:22:36 pm
content: Re: scope's usage. I think some people underestimate the bandwidth they truly need, it's quite conceivable to have oscillations in the hundreds of megahertz even in audio circuitry. I'd say one needs at least a 60Mhz analog scope for audio work; I'm sure some would disagree, and they probably have reasons for that, but that's my opinion.

author: Mr. Coffee
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 01, 2014, 06:26:48 pm
content: Quote from: zapta on May 01, 2014, 03:50:12 pmYep.But tubes were called tubes here instead of valves before transistors were on the horizon. Transistor isn't a bad name though...kind of a tranference resistor, no?

author: Mr. Coffee
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 01, 2014, 06:31:08 pm
content: Quote from: madshaman on May 01, 2014, 04:22:36 pmTrue, and It doesn't hurt to have a gigahertz I suppose for radio work, but I ain't paying for it, and I don't miss the extra bandwidth. Never had a problem finding a problem or designing a circuit in 30 years with no more than triple or quadrupal the bandwidth frequency of those that I typically work with.It just depends on what you do and how professional vs. hobby you do it.

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 01, 2014, 07:34:41 pm
content: I respect others views and I am not an electronics design engineer. I have used oscilloscopes for around 40 years, since the age of 7, and that includes some lovely Telequipment models that contained valves. In my experience I have been able to repair most equipment with relatively basic tools and with an oscilloscope of bandwidth =< 20MHz. In the 1940's 50's, 60's and 70's large bandwidth CRO's were rare beasts, so designers had to work with lesser equipment's, and they still did a decent job.I am an analogue tech so 20Mhz is often adequate for that world when finding faults. I am aware that when designing a product, greater bandwidth may be needed to obtain the full picture of a circuits behaviour. When I start heading into RF circuits I have a 10kHz - 3.5Ghz Spectrum Analyser that takes over from my oscilloscope. That provides me with accurate levels and harmonic content but, again, I am repairing or maintaining, and not designing.Times have changed. I have less hands-on time as a manager, but I still work on kit as a hobby. I can see that the modern world of high speed electronics and information technology far exceeds a 20MHz CRO's capability to display true wave shapes. This is not new though, much harmonic content of a lowly 5MHz square wave is lost on a 20 MHz CRO ! I purchased a 100MHz Hameg a few years ago, as I need the greater bandwidth these days for general electronics work....but 100MHz is still pretty rubbish when it comes to displaying modern electronics data wave shapes !I can call upon my logic analyser for capturing a data train and looking at whether all is well with the 1's and 0's, but as many will know, whilst the Logic Analyzer is an aid to catching errors and glitches, it shows nothing of the true wave shapes that are on the bus. Distortion can, apparently, be bad news in modern data busses.How many of us can afford oscilloscopes that can capture and display a true representation of a 166MHz or higher square wave ? Just try monitoring a USB port with your average scope !Whilst discussing scopes I cannot ignore DSO's. Modern Digital Storage Oscilloscopes are very good value for money and very capable....BUT..... having now got used to DSO's, I am very aware of the issues with the sampling rates used and the dramatic effect such can have on a displayed waveform if it is inadequate. With an analogue oscilloscope of the same bandwidth you can see signals beyond the specification without having to worry about aliasing errors, but a sine wave will suffer amplitude errors and square waves will suffer loss of harmonic content.... if you know that, no problemSadly the analogue scope cannot compete with the DSO in the ability to capture the displayed image or input data train. Older electrostatic storage CRO's could store images but with nothing like the versatility of the DSO.So its a case of horses for courses, but in 40 years of being in the world of electronics repair and maintenance I have never been stumped due to lack of oscilloscope bandwidth

author: Mr. Coffee
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 02, 2014, 02:01:41 pm
content: I don't do anything with digital, either. Mostly vintage radio repair, vintage test equipment restorationm and some functional circuits designs (analog) to facilitate this. And it is a hobby.Back to the original topic, I received this cute little scope yesterday and the sweep is much clearer and brighter than I expected for a 1.2kV acceleration voltage...however, the sync does not work at all. It will not lock down any signal at any frequency. I am attempting to get a return authorization number to exchange it for one that hopefully works. I really like the little thing, and want to have one that works for the bench.cheersRob