Keysight dmm orange backlight opinions - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: jdev99
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2021, 07:51:14 pm
content: I am considering buying a Keysight U1233A but never used a dmm with these orange displays/ backlights. How are they compared to the traditional ones, easy to read in dim - poor lighting or not?Thank you for all opinions.Joe.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2021, 07:56:34 pm
content: I have several things with orange backlights and I don't find it to be a problem. It's more pleasing in dim conditions than the bluish white that is so common.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2021, 02:40:54 am
content: My Brymen has an orange backlight. I quite like it, it feels a bit retro/nixie.

author: AVGresponding
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2021, 05:19:01 am
content: The orangey-yellow backlight is the only thing I like about my Solartron 7150...

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2021, 09:01:26 pm
content: There are physiological reasons to prefer white, or colors which are not blue. Green was popular with CRTs because the combined sensitivity of the P31 phosphor and response of the eye is the highest, but the other two common alternatives were white, and orange. If you ignore efficiency, then anything except blue is preferred. Blue or violet are problematical because the eye has the worst discrimination at short wavelengths and has difficulty focusing.

author: J-R
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2021, 12:46:52 am
content: Don't buy the U1233A, the orange backlight is terrible, among some other stand-out issues.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2021, 09:39:01 am
content: Quote from: J-R on October 17, 2021, 12:46:52 amIs that because you don't like the color or because it's badly implemented?

author: J-R
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2021, 11:09:22 pm
content: The orange color is very dark so the contrast with the LCD is poor. The backlight timer is 15 seconds and doesn't reset if you change modes or press buttons.Since nobody asked, the other issues are:- the LED flashlight on the back is a bit of a laugh- has uA and A ranges but no mA so there are values it literally cannot display- only 6,000 count- jacks are not color coded- poor and inconsistent button labels- selector knob seems designed for lefties

author: bob91343
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2021, 01:13:45 am
content: I have a Fluke bench DMM that uses an LCD. I would like to illuminate it but have no clue how to do that.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2021, 03:06:04 am
content: I personally like the orange backlight - I have a U1282A and had a U1233A and both were just fine. I tend to prefer this warm color to the white backlight of the 87V and 189, for example.Quote from: J-R on October 17, 2021, 11:09:22 pmThe timer not resetting with the meter operation is something the Flukes implement very well. The other brands I know, not so much.Quote from: J-R on October 17, 2021, 11:09:22 pmSince nobody asked to respond, here I go.- It is quite decent for a meter (not a flashlight) and is equivalent to what you see in more modern meters that have the same feature.- Indeed this is a somewhat weird choice, although the µA range makes some sense for HVAC electricians (flame sensor testing). It can display anything from 0 to 600µA and from 1mA to 10A.- Nothing really wrong with that, it is a meter for electricians.- Nothing really wrong with that, although the more colors the merrier.- You think so? I personally like them - good and reasonable labels and descriptions.- The knob is for right handed electricians holding the meter in their left hand and the probes in their right hand. The rotary dial protrudes to the side to help rotating it with the thumb. However, joeqsmith did a test on its smaller cousin (U1231) and its build quality left to be desired by a large margin.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2021, 03:08:42 am
content: Quote from: J-R on October 17, 2021, 11:09:22 pmOh, it'sthatmeter. I wasn't paying attention.Yeah, don't get that one.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2021, 05:28:49 am
content: I hate timers that cannot be defeated easily. I don't care if it drains the battery, leave the backlight on until I turn it off, otherwise it invariably is going to turn off when I'm in the middle of using it.

author: HKJ
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2021, 07:41:34 am
content: Quote from: J-R on October 17, 2021, 11:09:22 pmThat can be change in the configuration menu.

author: J-R
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2021, 07:50:29 am
content: Quote from: rsjsouza on October 18, 2021, 03:06:04 amMore thoughts to that:- The flashlight is a very focused beam with two big blue spots. I have other DMMs with lights and they are no good too but better mostly because they are floody.- The manual says "AC current between 0.6 mA and 300 mA is not measureable on the U1232A and U1233A models." I actually need to test this. I think it just isn't sensitive enough in the 6A range to pick up below 300mA because otherwise it does have the resolution to 1mA even in AC mode.- 6,000 counts seems weak. But in this case I primarily mentioned it since most folks here are doing electronics work.- I know there are DMMs without colored jacks, but it's still a poor choice. My U1461A has the same arrangement and it's really a step backwards in design. On the U1233A it's strange that they have orange U shaped marks below the jacks, which is the same color as the alternative functions on the selector dial. So when measuring temperature I should put the probes in the A and V jacks?No...- Labels below the line are supposedly for press and hold, except what's Vsense doing? Light button has a / instead of a horizontal line so doesn't match the rest. Just looks like someone crammed all this on there without thinking.- Pretty much every clamp meter in existence has the knob on the right. Holding a DMM in your left hand along with one probe and then probing with your right hand seems crazy on various levels. Magnets or a hanger strap is the way to do it. Also, the knob is too close to the bottom of the meter so even trying to rotate it with your left hand is awkward, unlike most clamp meters where it's great.Some GOOD things about the meter:- You can replace the 4 AAA batteries and fuse without removing the rubber holster. Metal threads with captive screw.- Continuity flashes the backlight in addition to beeping (scratchy beep, BTW).- Pretty much every reading is spot on, although that's somewhat easy with ~6,000 counts.- Has an IR port for USB and Bluetooth adapters and decent software.I also did find timeout options are available for the backlight and flashlight from 1-99 seconds or disabled. Defaults are backlight 15 seconds, flashlight timeout disabled, which are both just really weird decisions. I changed both to 99 seconds which seems reasonable. There are quite a few "hidden" options you can tweak, although most are pretty niche.Back to the backlight, just do an image search for this meter and you'll see in every photo that the display is hard to read when the backlight is on. And marketing has the rubbish flashlight feature plastered over one entire side of the retail box!

author: J-R
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2021, 07:57:27 am
content: Quote from: HKJ on October 18, 2021, 07:41:34 amTo clarify, the timeout can be changed, but having it extend the timer due to activity can't be changed, or did I miss something?But the 99 second maximum might be adequate for most people.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2021, 09:50:41 am
content: Quote from: J-R on October 18, 2021, 07:50:29 amIIRC the problem is that it jumps from a 600uA range to a 6A range.There's no way to measure 750uA (for example), it has no range for that.Quote from: J-R on October 18, 2021, 07:50:29 amIt's exactly the same as the (in)famous Fluke 87V.Quote from: J-R on October 18, 2021, 07:50:29 amDoesn't matter, the current range problem is a total showstopper.(plus it's not a cheap meter, you can get a top-of-the range Brymen for less money)

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2021, 04:25:44 pm
content: Quote from: J-R on October 18, 2021, 07:50:29 amThanks for the additional insights. I forgot some of the details about the current measurement.As a price/performance ratio, Fungus is correct - there are better propositions in the same size/form factor including the Fluke 11x family (less featured) or the Brymens BM23x/25x.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2021, 05:51:43 pm
content: The flashlight feature seems like a weird one to give such prominence. I'm sure there are times when it could be useful, I mean I use the flashlight on my smartphone all the time, but that's really only because I always have it on me. Since I already have my phone most of the time, I don't really see a need for a second crappy flashlight built into my DMM.

author: J-R
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2021, 06:05:35 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on October 18, 2021, 09:50:41 amYes, it is obvious it can't measure from about 660.0uA up to 1mA on DC mode but my point about AC mode is that the manual states up to 300mA which doesn't make sense at face value. So I (or someone) needs to test this to see what is really going on or if it's a typo.Quote from: Fungus on October 18, 2021, 09:50:41 amYou know the Fluke has Hi Res mode which is 20,000 count, so it's not a proper comparison at all!

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2021, 06:55:55 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on October 18, 2021, 05:51:43 pmJames, the flashlight is useful in certain conditions, but only if you see yourself at dim/dark places, in the attic, working at dusk/dawn/evening, etc. I rarely used it, but one the best I know is the Amprobe AM530: a real clunking switch that can exhaust the battery if you desire to do so. Another that is also good is the Richmeters 113D - although the backlight is timed, the flashlight isn't and bleeds through the top of the display, thus making a poor man's backlight as well.I have seem other chinese meters with a timed flashlight as well - pretty stupid IMO.

author: J-R
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2021, 06:20:14 am
content: OK, I can say at least on my U1233A that the following statement in the manual and other materials is mostly false:"AC current between 0.6 mA and 300 mA is not measureable on the U1232A and U1233A models."- Being ~6600 count it can actually measure up to ~660uA.- It does have a dead spot in A mode up to about 0.015A but otherwise has no problems displaying quite accurate readings from that point onward.- If you REL out the 0.015A reading to start with, it will basically be off by that amount as you go up. So 0.050A will read 0.035A for example.- Tests were run with 60Hz sine.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2021, 07:28:41 am
content: Quote from: J-R on October 20, 2021, 06:20:14 amBeing unable to measure between 660uA and 16mA seems like quite a big problem to me. I measure single digit mAa LOT.This isn't a cheap meter nor does it have a particularly good CAT rating.Fluke makes a similar meter though, the116has uA mode up to 600uA and the same CAT rating. There must besomebodyout there who wants this.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2021, 08:18:47 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on October 20, 2021, 07:28:41 amThat is for HVAC use. Flame sensors testing, specifically.. So you can look at it as a HVAC technician meter here that has 6A and 10A AC/DC current ranges and Flame sensor testing capabilities (that so happen to be uA measurements...). I've seen in the past meters that had been marked with flame sensor mode not uA... They were still measuring uA, mind you...Quote from: J-R on October 20, 2021, 06:20:14 amInformation in manual can be "in error" meaning that error was made writing it.It can never be "false". That is purpose of those documents: a manufacturers "manifesto" of what is purpose of instrument, it's guaranteed characteristics, and it's intended use.Whatever anybody else claims is irrelevant. If Keysight , clearly, states in a official datasheet:"5. AC current between 0.6 mA and 300 mA is not measureable on the U1232A and U1233A models. "than that isnot only very true, butonly authoritative information.Your, mine, or anybody else'sopiniondoesn't matter not a little bit.Those 2 meters cannot measure AC current between 0.6 mA and 300 mA AND provide any sensible and repeatable results. Andthatis GUARANTEED spec by manufacturer.And there is a reason, for it, log/antilog RMS converters are not guaranteed to show any sensible data below some 5 % of full scale.They are actually quite honest here, not hiding it and clearly stating it. If you need meter to measure miliamps in that area, you need to get meter that has fully featured amps range..What you measured will wildly vary with temperature and frequency of signal, because of RMS converter chip used..And there are reasons for the strong disclaimer: for instance, someone might be tempted to measure leakage current from some device and decide it is safe because it was "only" 5 mA, while in fact it was 25mA or more...Yes, people shouldn't be stupid and shouldn't do what they are not supposed to do but they still do it. Mostly because they believe the can get away with it "this time" and they "know better".And it all starts with also believing that instruments are better then they are and can do magical things not specified in datasheets.. Because you know better than one of most respected T&M manufacturer on the planet that actually made the device... Because you tested on a sample of one..

author: Huluvu
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2021, 10:32:56 am
content: I am not sure why everybody is bashing this Multimeter Series from KeysightThe obvious purpose of this range of Multimeter was a counter part to the Fluke 113,115,117 Range.Fluke statet on their Website that this Multimeter was designed as "A compact trms digital multimeter for field service technicians".6 or 7 Years ago i was thinking of getting the Fluke 115 and decided to spend my money on the U1232A (Agilent that time) and never regretted this decisionIf i recall it correctly it was also much cheaper that time.I really like the fast update rate, logging capability and the function that you can reverse the continuity mode to trigger at open circuits.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2021, 10:44:26 am
content: Quote from: Huluvu on October 20, 2021, 10:32:56 amI'm not sure either. I've been recommending buying Agilent/KS handheld meters instead of the Fluke ones for years now. They have better pricing, more compact, more features for the same range. I think I had one buzzer fail within warranty, that was replaced, but if it wasn't that would be an easy repair if needed.And yes, if you are ordering it for electronics, you should buy something that has mA range, and not something that is designed for Electricians or HVAC.

author: Nusa
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2021, 10:52:56 am
content: Note that the individual reaction to color choice will be affected by that person's color vision. Estimates are 1 in 12 men and 1 in 200 women have some degree of color-blindness, most commonly of the red-green type.So when you get opinions from enough people, their experience is quite legitimately going to vary. Not everyone will like what you like and vice versa.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2021, 11:07:49 am
content: To make sure we are on the same page, I am NOT bashing it.I think it a good meter for it's purpose.What can be seen as "shortcomings" by some, are not, but deliberate design decisions for target market.If some instrument doesn't have measurements you need, it is not bad because of it, but wrong choice for your purpose.On the other hand, some people start with apologetic " well it doesn't have the range but you don't need it because ....".That is also wrong (and my reason to speak up).You decide what you need, and buy instrument for that purpose.To some, a flashlight is more important than 500mA range. Flashlight they need all the time, and having one in meter saves them from carrying 2 devices instead of only one when crawling into tight spaces between two generators.. And they never measure milliamps. For them this meter is sent from heaven.For me BM869 is better choice. To each it's own..Orange light might be easier on the eyes in dark environments, easier on night vision. We used red light to read maps at night...Regards to all...

author: Huluvu
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2021, 11:29:56 am
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on October 20, 2021, 11:07:49 amYes - we are on the same PageI also do not specifically refer to this thread, but i read so many comments (eevblog, Youtube...) people complaining the missing mA Range, the wrong understood uA functionality and the not latched continuity functionPlease don't get me wrong - everybody can complain what ever he wants to complain, but in this case it sounds a bit strange if you compare the model range with Fluke 11X as a fair comparison.Its like you buy a Porsche 911 and complain that offroad sucks

author: J-R
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2021, 07:18:21 pm
content: Yes, the HVAC use case has been mentioned over and over, I get it. But this forum is pretty heavy on electronics and bench use as well. So the current measurement gap is a relevant topic to discuss here.The dark orange backlight against the dark LCD digits provides objectively poor contrast (dark against dark). I have no color or vision deficiencies.The novella about the manual always being right is a bit much, I very clearly said "my" U1233A and also stated the test frequency and waveform. If the manual wants to be immutable then it needs to provide quite a bit more than it does. But most DMM manuals are similar, so that is why we all are here testing things and presenting our findings.Let's go further, if the 300mA AC A statement is due to the 5% of the range statement: "AC V and AC A specifications are AC coupled, true rms and are valid from 5% of range to 100% of range." (Page 104), then why isn't that mentioned on the AC V specifications page? If the manual is gospel then the fact is that the U1233A can't be used to measure AC V from 0-30mV either. Where is that footnote?I would feel sorry for anyone trying to use the flashlight on this meter. It's objectively terrible. Just get a headlamp or a clip-on light. LEDs and flashlights have come so far in the last 10+ years. (Also, "EDC" is a thing.)

author: 25 CPS
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2021, 12:31:42 am
content: Quote from: J-R on October 20, 2021, 07:18:21 pmI have several orange Keysights and a couple of older Agilents with the blue backlight. What I've discovered is that the orange is better in low light environments because it doesn't interfere with night vision the way the blue on the older Agilents does, even if it is a pretty colour and has better contrast. The recovery time from looking at the meter to working is a bit longer with those, I find.I've also got a U1461A insulation tester with the OLED screen which is fine in low light environments but has the opposite problem where it gets washed out badly under daylight.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2021, 03:44:52 am
content: The old Fluke 87 multimeters have an excellent green LED backlight; I do not know about later ones. The contemporary Tektronix DMM916 has a horrible white (incandescent?) backlight which is practically useless.

author: AVGresponding
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2021, 05:15:19 am
content: Quote from: J-R on October 20, 2021, 07:18:21 pmJust another thing to carry around and have to remember to either keep charged up or carry spare batteries for.My own personal use case for a jaw mounted light on my clamp meter may be a marginal one, but when you need it, you need it.Time worn sparky aphorism "Better to be looking at it, than looking for it!"

author: J-R
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2021, 08:51:11 am
content: Quote from: AVGresponding on October 21, 2021, 05:15:19 amTime to take things up a notch. How hard is it to remember to charge your flashlight? Or just carry more than one. I've been carrying multitools/knives and flashlights since I was a wee lad. Can't ever go back. Attached is my current EDC (every day carry) loadout (top row goes in the sheath). All the lights are 4.2V Li-ion. Two smaller are ~350-500lm, mid ~1,000lm, largest is ~4,000lm. The larger light does live in an outer jacket/layer (along with the 9mm unless I'm concealed). Not shown is my relatively minimalist wallet and of course cell phone.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2021, 09:36:44 am
content: You're missing a helmet and a M16 and you're ready to deploy...You will be surprised, but outside of USA, people don't walk around ready for war. Gun included..EDC is not a big thing in the rest of the world. There are some people that do that, but not much..EU EDC kit: keys, phone, documents. Hardcore ones carry a swiss army knife (nonlockable blade)..

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2021, 10:51:01 am
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on October 21, 2021, 09:36:44 amThe swiss army minichamp is tiny, there's no excuse not to carry one considering how useful it is.https://www.swissarmy.com/us/en/Products/Swiss-Army-Knives/Small-Pocket-Knives/Mini-Champ/p/0.6385#Knife, scissors, both types of screwdriver, tweezers, bottle opener and pen - all get used constantly(it could be improved - they need to make a hardcore version with a saw and file instead of the orange peeler and manicure thing).

author: Neutrion
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2021, 05:18:55 pm
content: +1 for orange backlight generally. But the warm white on the BM789 is also nice.As for EDC: One can get pretty fast used to taking shower with the 9mm. (As we all know, the attackers always coming from behind the shower curtain.) But what always annoys me, is the parachute getting wet.

author: AVGresponding
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2021, 05:31:14 pm
content: Quote from: J-R on October 21, 2021, 08:51:11 amI can have over 150kg of tools to lug around, depending on the job I'm asked to do. I rarely need all of them, I usually carry a selection, and various head-torches and work lights can be included.They aren't always, and when they aren't and something crops up where you have to get the job done with the tools you have, a clamp meter with a decent jaw light is better than one with no light at all.If I only had my Fluke T5-1000, Chauvin-Arnoux F21, or RS-Pro 5601 with me then I'd likely use my phone as a light, but that holds its own risks (usually to the phone's screen).

author: PushUp
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2021, 06:08:35 pm
content: Quote from: jdev99 on October 14, 2021, 07:51:14 pmAllthough it is impossible to capture the "real" backlight colour on a picture, you get at least an impression. The blue of the Fluke is not that bright, but good enough to read. To be honest: the red of the U1233A is not that good as the orange of the U1272A, but better than any Brymen having only a short timer!!!The left U1233A has the lowest backlight brightness and the right one the highest.In the settings of the U1233A you can not only adjust the backlight brightness from Low to High in seven perfectly distinguished steps......but also the timer settings, which I always disable and yes, it is possible having the backlight always on and manually switching off:Backlight.Timer from 15 to 99 seconds. with E = enabled..."b.15.E""b.99.E"...or simply "d" at the end for disabled = backlight always on; the 15 to 99 number is unimportant with the "d" at the end:"b.15.d"In contrast to the Fluke 117/179/87V with a Keysight you always have a real settings menu with any option you need! In contrast to Fluke, Keysight AutoRanges in DC, when measuring A, but it does not keep the last setting compared with a Brymen.*****Cheers!*****Edit:In order to be more precise as far as the Fluke 289 is concerned, as it is my favourite handheld DMM, despite the bad display, I have to add some lines, as XMAS is near and I don't want to be responsible for a bad buy, because I also pay attention to any detail:When measuring A, it also switches back to AAC, when you have chosen one of the submeasurements before, such as: "AC+DC" or "AC, DC" or "DC, AC"!However, as long as you only use the normal A measurement, such as AAC or ADC - but only in these settings with single display - the Fluke 289 keeps either AC or DC while measuring A, when switching off and on again (as long as your batteries are fine and you don't have a leaking super-cap).This "behaviour" of not keeping the "submeasurements with dual display mode" - Apple would call it a "feature", is definitely a disadvantage as it looses the benefit of doing recuring measurements while using the multiple display functionality!By the way: for me the HMC8012 is the best alternative for a handheld DMM being always used on a bench, because it boots fast, has no fan and is therefore totally silent, has a perfect display contrast and readability and it always and forever keeps the last chosen measurement function, despite all saving-setting-possibilities you also have, when switching on again.The Fluke 289 comes closest to this due to its extra power button, but with the disadvantages mentioned above; I don't like a benchtop DMM such as the Rigol DM3068, which always starts with DCV, because the benchtop DMM is ment to be used for recuring measurements, so that its annoying, to start with DCV while having the test leads in A and you need to load an A setting again and again...-----Also, I cannot stress it enough: The shown colours on the pictures are really not (!!!) the "real" colours: The U1233A is more like a darkish red, which is really sad, as the contrast between black and red is not that good as between orange and black, which makes the U1233A incomparable with the bigger brother's backlight and unfortunately inferior!!!No matter, which brand you take, they mostly don't get it, that it is fine to make mistakes, as long as they change it as soon as possible, thus especially in this case it is absolutely no big deal to switch the LEDs with the orange ones and anything is fine, but they keep selling this shit over and over pretending it is the best solution - this behaviour sucks!!!The END.

author: J-R
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2021, 09:47:29 pm
content: Good job, PushUp, excellent comparison photo!

author: J-R
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2021, 09:48:08 pm
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on October 21, 2021, 09:36:44 amI think the US gets stereotyped a bit, I like carrying some gear with me but it's not as common as you might expect.A lot of the stuff in that photo simply wasn't possible a decade ago so I take advantage where possible, and I recommend to others they do the same.Went through the process to get a conceal carry permit so why not. I work in a government building so can't bring it inside. Hence the folding knife.Coincidentally, the Hellcat is made in Croatia.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2021, 10:25:12 pm
content: Quote from: J-R on October 21, 2021, 09:48:08 pmI personally don't judge, to get that out of the way. Fact is that in many countries around the world, you can't get a permit without right cause, and very few countries have a concept of concealed permit at all.. So it's not a prejudice, simply facts.I know about Hellcat, it is made by HS Produkt, original name is HS2000, that was designed as a serous weapon for military and police service. That is a compact version of the full size service weapon. We here have a long tradition of making superb weaponry. HS Produkt also makes a very modern assault rifle VHS..

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2021, 12:08:22 am
content: Quote from: 25 CPS on October 21, 2021, 12:31:42 amBlue backlights are terrible. I have very little opinion about other colors, some are better than others but I could live with anything, except for blue. I thought blue LEDs were cool back when they first appeared because they were very novel, but that novelty quickly wore off. That deep saturated blue has many uses, but lighting things up directly is not one of them.

author: 25 CPS
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2021, 11:32:59 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on October 22, 2021, 12:08:22 amOne place I absolutely hate gratuitous amounts of blue lighting beyond the high beam indicator is car dash. Some Honda Civic models seem to be really bad for this. Then there’s the plug-in voltmeters like this one that I’ve got in the kitchen as both a display and a night light is pretty awful:The neon glow lamp in the little plug extender that gets past that thick cover plate that indicates it’s live is fine but the voltmeter at night is almost too much. I’d love for this to be Keysight orange or a red or an amber, anything except that eye piercing night vision destroying blue. I might take the thing apart and see if I can modify it.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2021, 01:09:37 am
content: Quote from: J-R on October 21, 2021, 09:48:08 pmI can count on one hand the number of times in my life I've seen a person other than a policeman openly carrying a firearm. I've known a few people who carry concealed and I've probably passed by many others on the street but it's not like the wild west. You can easily live your whole life in the USA and never touch a gun if it isn't something that interests you.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2021, 01:12:21 am
content: Quote from: 25 CPS on October 22, 2021, 11:32:59 pmThe high beam indicators on my cars are incandescent so they don't bother me, not nearly as harsh as blue LEDs. Aftermarket car stereos are terrible for this, I couldn't find one that was relatively conservative looking and didn't have blue lighting behind the buttons. I've been meaning to take the faceplate apart and modify it because I hate the blue.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2021, 07:07:45 am
content: Quote from: james_s on October 23, 2021, 01:12:21 amI had several radios that use RGB LEDS and you can set the color from the menu..

author: J-R
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2021, 07:30:54 am
content: Quote from: james_s on October 23, 2021, 01:09:37 amWell, we are fully off topic now, but yes, absolutely. Also, for the benefit of those reading this from other countries, firearm laws in the US vary drastically from state to state, have illogical rules and exceptions and can be at odds with federal laws.For many reasons it is smarter to conceal carry. Open carry is for the woods or for 2nd amendment audits.I'm a reasonable guy but sometimes I can't help myself:

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2021, 03:18:50 am
content: I only started carrying a "tactical" flashlight after many years of carrying a concealed firearm, which I have relied on twice to defend myself in 18 years so far. It wasthis videowhich convinced me of the utility of a bright flashlight with strobe capability.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2021, 11:25:13 am
content: Quote from: David Hess on October 24, 2021, 03:18:50 amJohn Correia's channel is a good one. Thanks for highlighting this video. I have several of these tactical flashlights inherited from my late dad and they will be put to good use now.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2021, 06:40:22 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on October 23, 2021, 01:09:37 amI think it depends entirely on where in USA you are. Living in Maryland (where I lived the longest in USA), I never saw a gun. (Baltimore may be the former murder capital of the USA, but almost all of it iswithina particular demographic, and within certain neighborhoods.)I lived in NC as a kid, and you’d see guns now and then, but it was hunting rifles. Same with north Florida, where my grandma lived.I’ve seen far more non-hunting-related open carry here in Switzerland, but that’s just because younger men have to go do their obligatory military service, so you routinely see them on the trains with their service weapons. Nobody bats an eye if they go into a shop at the station en route. Then again, they’re not allowed to carry ammo with them, so the chances of any of those rifles being loaded is negligible.Switzerland is a funky place in that regard, in that it’s got a very high gun ownership rate (as in, percentage of households that own a gun), but a relatively low gun violence rate (high for western Europe, low compared to the rest of the world). But Switzerland is a country that has a healthy respect for guns, without the wacko-world gun fetishists* that have managed to completely steer the gun rights discussion in USA (despite the fact that they’re a minority even in USA!).*Switzerland has a significantly higher percentage of households with a gun than USA. But the number of guns per capita in USA is far, far higher, so each gun-owning household in USA tends to own more guns. But apparently, even within USA there’s a huge disparity between themeannumber of guns per gun-owning household and themediannumber of guns per gun-owning household, meaning that a comparatively small number of Americans have huge arsenals that drive up the mean. You don’t see people here with private armories…

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2021, 07:30:10 pm
content: People tend to focus on the weapons but I would argue that the USA doesn't really have a weapon problem so much as we have a culture problem. We have a culture in which violence has long been seen as a legitimate method of resolving conflicts. It was not THAT long ago that the "wild west" with its lawless frontier towns was a real thing, much of Europe has had hundreds of years longer to become civilized. Much of Europe has also traditionally been very homogenized, whereas the USA has always been composed of a number of various groups that have not always melted together, with sometimes uneasy alliances. It's not entirely unlike the tribalism seen in parts of the middle east.

author: Nusa
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2021, 12:02:14 am
content: Quote from: tooki on October 24, 2021, 06:40:22 pmIt's gotten more polarized of late, with Texas being at one extreme. As of last month, it's now legal for most Texans to conceal carry in the state with no license or training. The no training is the scariest part. California is probably at the other end of the extreme, banning assault weapons almost entirely, using a definition of assault weapon that was initially overly inclusive (e.g. An Olympic shooter found that her custom competition weapon fell in that category because of where the magazine was located.)Personally, I've never actually owned a gun, although I had an M14 in my closet for the late 1980's. State of Indiana had a huge surplus of them which were never legal to sell to civilians, but it was fine to loan them out (automatic fire selector was removed). I was range shooting with friends at Camp Atterbury at the time. I got decent at hitting targets with iron sights at 600 yards. 1000 yards not so much, my eyes aren't good enough. State even gave me boxes of surplus 7.62 ammo (1960's dates) to use. Was quite the deal at the time to get into the sport. I gave it back to the state when I moved west, so it was probably one of the half-million weapons destroyed in 1993-4.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2021, 02:22:39 am
content: The assault weapons legislation has never made any sense to me at all. By the amount of attention they get you'd think so called assault rifles were involved in a huge percentage of gun crimes while in reality the number is less than one percent. I personally think they're kind of dumb since they are essentially fake military weapons, the firearm equivalent to your basic Honda or Subaru that has been dressed up like a race car. The overwhelming majority of gun violence in America involves mundane handguns. The class that gets the absolute least amount of attention. The problem is that so many people get so emotional about it on both sides that it is almost impossible to even have a rational debate. Another problem is that most people, at least the sort trying to legislate guns learned everything they know about them from watching movies, which means that almost none of their knowledge is grounded in reality.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2021, 03:51:50 am
content: Before Mods jump in and jump on us for gun talk, weapons are just tools like we have different pliers, screwdrivers, hammers, knives etc for different jobs firearms are exactly the same. I need a minimum of 4 types to suit my needs, just like pliers, screwdrivers, hammers, knives etc.............

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2021, 01:07:52 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on October 24, 2021, 07:30:10 pmNo argument there.Quote from: james_s on October 24, 2021, 07:30:10 pmI disagree with that one though. It seems to me more like a mix of easy availability combined with an incredible paranoia being deliberately created by:a) The NRA (who need boogymen to justify their hobby)b) People who make money from selling gunsc) People who make money from selling self defense coursesd) People who make money from selling "tactical furniture", etc.e) A government who goes along with it because they know that selling "war" and xenophobia gets votes, plus the NRA pays good money for them to keep gun culture alive.America is also a country that really really believes in push button gadgets as solutions to problems so the idea that simply buying a product makes them safer is appealing to a lot of people. The reality is that more people are killed by their own guns in their own home than by "home invaders".(I don't think the phrase "home invasion" even exists in most countries).I watch youtube channels like "Demolition Ranch" but I'd be prepared to live without that if I thought it would get the guns out of the hands of the idiots.FWIW, I'm with Jim:

author: Neutrion
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2021, 04:53:26 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on October 24, 2021, 07:30:10 pmWell, it is kind of a good old tradition than.But I disagree with the homogenization. The case is actually the opposite.Now without google first guess which 2-3 big cities in the world apart from war zones have the highest amount of gun violence? (And violence with explosives.) After maybe the first being Mexico, the second 2-3 are in Europe!. And than compare that with the changing level of homogenization in that single country!

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2021, 07:21:21 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on October 25, 2021, 01:07:52 pmOnly if you pad the statistics massively by including suicides, which is a fancy way of lying because our suicide rate is not especially high. When you realize that a country like Japan which has almost no civilian gun ownership has a higher suicide rate than the USA, it becomes obvious that guns don't cause suicide, they are just the most convenient tool at hand, take them away and people pick up a different tool. Unless you deliberately choose to harm yourself, owning a firearm does not increase your chance of being killed.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 26, 2021, 12:18:34 am
content: Quote from: Neutrion on October 25, 2021, 04:53:26 pmI couldn't find a worldwide rank of gun violence per city but instead homicides in general, and my initial guess was that Europe wouldn't be anywhere near there: indeed, apart from three, the top twenty are 100% in Latin America with the sad concentration in Mexico and my home country of Brasil.Regardless, I personally don't think that homogenization has happened anywhere, especially Europe. Ethnic differences, local an national rivalries and the old sin of greed triggered the world's biggest wars in history.Regarding the US gun discussion, the NRA is much less representative than your run of the mill news organization makes you believe. The "bogey man" is fully fabricated by both sides and takes shape in different ways: one side says the "attackers to the constitution", the other side says "assault weapons". The real actors and victims of the gun violence in the US are in the ethnic and racial minority neighbourhoods that kill and wound much more than the news organizations let out.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 26, 2021, 02:04:47 am
content: Quote from: rsjsouza on October 24, 2021, 11:25:13 amI think what changed is that high performance LEDs now make it possible to have a flashlight with enough intensity to be blinding in a package small enough to carry comfortable in a pocket, and they are not even all that expensive.Quote from: Nusa on October 25, 2021, 12:02:14 amTexas has a reputation for being "firearm friendly", however they are only now catching up with 20 other states as far as permit-less concealed carry. Up until recently, Texas has been one of the more restrictive states.Quote from: Fungus on October 25, 2021, 01:07:52 pmOne of my teachers who had a medical license liked to say that American medicine came down to either drug it, or cut it out.Quote from: james_s on October 24, 2021, 07:30:10 pmThe violence of the "wild west" is consistently exaggerated, but the lack of a homogenized culture does lead to increased violence. The US has a violence problem, not a firearm problem, unless someone can explain how the availability of firearms also increases violence associated with all other weapons.Quote from: rsjsouza on October 26, 2021, 12:18:34 amThat kind of comparison can be tricky because crimes are not reported uniformly. Homicide in the US is exactly that, any death caused by another person. But for instance the UK (well, England and Wales at least) does not count it unless someone is convicted.Since 1967, homicide figures for England and Wales have been adjusted to exclude any cases which do not result in convictionhttps://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm199900/cmselect/cmhaff/95/95ap25.htm

author: Neutrion
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 26, 2021, 09:54:06 am
content: Quote from: rsjsouza on October 26, 2021, 12:18:34 amMostly in the 3 largest cities and its suburbs in Sweden there are yearly way more than 300 shootings, and about 150-160 explosions with most of them being handgranades, but sometimes more poweful stuff.Though there are relatively few people dying, like 40-50 only, but you wont get anywhere near these numbers in any other major cities in the world. How the whole international press is ignoring it, is a mistery.If one handgranade would go off in Berlin, the press would not stop covering it for a week.And regarding the terms we are using indeed there is a difference between homogeNIZED and homogeNOUS. So I might just had a problem with the proper term.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 26, 2021, 11:13:34 am
content: Quote from: David Hess on October 26, 2021, 02:04:47 amIndeed. Not only that, but also the LiIon batteries pack a lot of punch as well and, being rechargeable, lower the TCO to regular levels.Quote from: David Hess on October 26, 2021, 02:04:47 amNot only that but, apart from what "Bowling for Columbine" showed, to get a gun legally is not a walk in the park.Quote from: David Hess on October 26, 2021, 02:04:47 amIndeed. Not only the "officially accepted" constitution of a crime but also what goes unreported. In the countries I know, crime is well underreported especially if there is no homicide. Not only that, but in areas where drug lords rule, even homicides go unreported. To bring this closer to US, take the current problems at the Southern border where nobody really knows how many people go missing in the Sonora Desert, for example.Quote from: Neutrion on October 26, 2021, 09:54:06 amIndeed the reporting seems quite unbalanced - but as the discussion above goes, the crime reporting can vary greatly and have quite different levels of accuracy - how accurate is the number for 300 shootings? Does it count someone shooting birds or to the air? That is quite difficult. Well, as you are talking about Sweden, I imagine the reporting/counting is much better than a country like Brasil.I know in Brasil the number of armed robberies and non-lethal shootings skyrockets pretty quickly, especially in the areas controlled by the drug cartels. It is a no man's land and therefore impossible to get accurate numbers.

author: Neutrion
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 26, 2021, 02:15:47 pm
content: Quote from: rsjsouza on October 26, 2021, 11:13:34 amYes, 20-30 years ago nobody reported these "bird shootings" only these days)But no, weapon laws in Sweden are very strickt just like in most of the countries in Europe and no one is shooting around with live ammo especially in big cities. Not even gas guns are allowed. And I doubt it would be recorded officially as a firefight without investigation just because someone called the police. They are not idiots.In the swedish news you can read about these firefights regularly, it is not just a statistic appearing somwhere. Just all this doesn't makes to the news outside Sweden.Although for the NRA it would have quiet a PR value in the US to point out a country where even a pepper spray is considered as a weapong worth of a prison sentence, so almost no legal handguns at all, still, somehow there are more shootings than in any big US city....And yes, the grenades are also illegal in Sweden, before someone asks, and people are not using frags for recreational purposes.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 27, 2021, 03:44:55 am
content: Quote from: rsjsouza on October 26, 2021, 11:13:34 amI do not think the performance of Lithium-Ion and related batteries matter for this. High discharge rate NiCd cells were available long before lithium-ion cells and could have been used, albeit with a shorter but sufficient operating time. What was missing was a suitable efficient and high power density lamp.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 27, 2021, 05:07:31 am
content: I still remember the first time I got my hands on a 1W Luxeon Star LED, that was only about 20 years ago, I was absolutely amazed by the blinding brightness. Of course now that little 1W LED would appear anemic.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 27, 2021, 08:39:12 pm
content: Quote from: David Hess on October 27, 2021, 03:44:55 amI had quite a few high discharge NiCd cells but the relative cost and endurace of such power delivery units in very small packages was very unfavourable. Leave a NiCd half charged in any short-term use apparatus such as a flashlight and you had a very short lived battery.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 27, 2021, 09:42:10 pm
content: Quote from: rsjsouza on October 27, 2021, 08:39:12 pmI do not know why that would have been unless they were being damaged by overcharging, which was quite common. Charge condition should have very little effect on operating life. The NiCd cells I used supported more charge/discharge cycles than currently available lithium-ion cells, rated at 500 at most, and failure tended to be through shorts caused by dendrite growth after years. "Consumer grade" paste cells for the highest possible capacity were less reliable.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 27, 2021, 10:46:03 pm
content: NiCd and earlier NiMH cells as well had quite high self discharge rates. I never used rechargeable batteries in flashlights until LSD NiMH and Li-ion appeared. I tried the standard cells early on but found my flashlight was often dead when I needed it.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 28, 2021, 03:26:01 am
content: High temperature rated NiCd cells, which overlapped high discharge cells, also had lower self discharge rates. I do not know that they were as good as low discharge NiMH cells, but they were a lot better than standard NiMH cells. The cost was lower capacity because with a thicker separator, there was less volume for active material.