How to document the time and date of something using a camera?  An app? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: ez24
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 07, 2018, 02:19:59 am
content: HiIn the movies they show people taking pictures of a newspaper to prove a date.I want to take closeup pictures of a bubble level. If I use a newspaper you could not see the bubble.I thought about a cell phone, but I can change the date and time on it. The date and time can be easily changed in a camera.I wonder if anyone here has come across this problem? How to document the time and date of an event using a camera? Has anyone had any legal challenges to this?thanks

author: JohnnyMalaria
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 07, 2018, 02:37:51 am
content: Quote from: ez24 on June 07, 2018, 02:19:59 amIf you would be willing to use the newspaper if it didn't hide the bubble then there'd be nothing to stop you using the wrong newspaper. All a newspaper can do is prove you took the picture on or after that day. So why are you concerned about the time on the phone being changed or the metadata of the file being edited? Is this something you are doing for legal reasons? If you need to be able to show that a photo was taken before a certain date then you could upload it to a website or email it to yourself. The server's timestamps (e.g., in the email header) will show that the photo was created before a certain time.

author: ez24
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 07, 2018, 03:18:41 am
content: Quote from: JohnnyMalaria on June 07, 2018, 02:37:51 amLegal reasons - maybe yes in a worse case situation. My building rolls down a hill.The email attachment is the perfect answerThanks

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 07, 2018, 03:23:55 am
content: Quote from: JohnnyMalaria on June 07, 2018, 02:37:51 am...and there's always the question of whether the bubble level is mounted at an angle/moved, too.

author: ez24
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 07, 2018, 03:31:52 am
content: Quote from: amyk on June 07, 2018, 03:23:55 amUmm I guess there has to be a starting point. I have some digital levels but I realized they can be zero'd. I will be installing liquid levels also, they would be harder to fake. Have to give this some thought.thanks

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 07, 2018, 04:15:50 am
content: It is likely that you are not the only one affected by this situation. Multiple observations by multiple witnesses is the normal approach to such things. If you really are the only one affected, a hired professional will be more convincing than your "amateur" efforts. Even if you are a professional in this field hiring a disinterested professional would be better. A land surveyor should have the appropriate equipment and skills, though some engineering and architecture firms could also do it. There is some chance that you can get this support from a municipal or county entity.If you are really concerned having a copy of the evidence notarized at appropriate times will provide additional evidence of the existence at a point in time.The extremes may not be required, but it is always better to go into a battle over armed and over prepared than the other alternative.

author: ez24
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 07, 2018, 04:18:37 am
content: Quote from: wilfred on June 07, 2018, 04:01:43 amSorry I have a tilting building and I want to document the rate of tilt and corrections to tiltI am going to use three setups. 1. 5' /2mm x 100 mm glass vials mounted at right angles inside building. 2. circular 3 degree level mounted inside 3. 3 -- pipette liquid levels mounted outside 2 on slipping soil and 1 one on bedrock. All three connected togetherMore details here but it is long:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/suggestions-for-high-resolution-tiltmeter-(inclinometer)-sensor/msg1531160/#msg1531160thank you

author: JohnnyMalaria
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 07, 2018, 12:41:13 pm
content: Quote from: ez24 on June 07, 2018, 03:18:41 amSo that helps with showing photos had already been taken but it doesn't show that you might have emailed them out-of-sequence or waited. To show that the sequence is correct you need something that can only have existed after a certain time (like the newspaper). So, forgive what may seem an outlandish suggestion, but what if you put a small plant in the photos? Unless you are Bayer, there's nothing you can do to fake the day-by-day growth. Or maybe some other object that changes with time and cannot be altered? (I see a chia pet with a bubble attached...)Alternatively, you say that you want to measure the tilt rate and after correction. Can you have whoever is doing the correction measure it just before and after? I assume if it is being corrected that the people doing must be able to measure it(?)It sounds like you are in a horrible situation.

author: senso
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 07, 2018, 01:32:21 pm
content: Let the legal define a word, or words, or numbers/letters, they tell you the word of the day, write that in a post it, show post-it in all photos, let legal to handle the date verification.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 07, 2018, 01:58:24 pm
content: The future for proving the provenance of photos has a one word answer, blockchain.https://qz.com/651616/this-startup-wants-to-use-blockchains-to-track-every-image-on-the-internet/

author: splin
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 07, 2018, 02:26:22 pm
content: Take a (continuous) video of the newspaper, plant(s) garden, vista (buildings constructed/demolished) - anything which could provide evidence of the date, or at least the season, then zoom into the spirit level. That shows the location of the spirit level, which a zoomed in still picture can't.You could include yourself and preferably others - peoples', especially women's clothes/fashions/hairstyles change periodically and there's a reasonable chance that they or their friends could testify as to where and when they bought a particular item of clothing or fashion accessory.The video could include the tv, changing channels a few dozen times. Of course that could have been prerecorded but would be more difficult to arrange especially if the video includes the remote being operated.I believe car dashcams encrypt the video such that it can't be easily altered by unskilled people in order to improve the legal quality of the evidence. I have no idea how secure these encryption schemes are but it should help if it's part of a collection of evidence in the event of a legal claim.Why not consult a lawyer? If you are sufficiently concerned that you might need such evidence in the event of a catastrophe, especially if it involved loss of life, then pictures of a spirit level would be the least of your concern I would have thought, and may turn out to be inadmissable evidence anyway (INAL). Post - facto calamity then periodic monitoring of levels clearly were not sufficient to avoid the event and, possibly worse, proves that you were aware of the potential danger and failed to take appropriate action.I'd have thought that proof that a suitably quailfied independant structural Engineer had approved the safety of your installation would be the only reasonable defence. I'm guessing thata) that would be too expensive for the probabilty (that you believe) of it occurringand/or b) you would have great difficulty getting a suitable professional to declare it safe.It does sound like a horrible situation and for that you have my sympathy FWIW. Of course the risk level may be vanishingly small and anywhere else in the world you wouldn't bat an eyelid but being in California... From what you've said though it doesn't seem that low risk.

author: Masa
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 07, 2018, 03:14:28 pm
content: I think it is difficult to prove it correct with newspaper and such, as photos can be so easily edited and manipulated nowadays. It is quite easy to change a newspaper, etc. in a photo.Video is quite much more work to manipulate.Maybe the best way is as suggested above, send the image/video to some place . . .

author: NivagSwerdna
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 07, 2018, 04:01:19 pm
content: The simplest way is to involve a third party who will testify on your behalf. e.g. Get a surveyor to visit and take the photo.Any photo you take will likely be inadmissible since you could have tampered with it.

author: GerryBags
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 07, 2018, 04:12:45 pm
content: Are you using a digital camera rather than a phone? As long as your camera has the date and time set accurately before you take your picture, and you DON'T process it at all in photoshop or any other package, the date and time that the picture was taken (as well as data points such as shutter speed, aperture, ISO setting etc.) are automatically stored in the image file itself as the EXIF data. Store the images you want to use in your case on a separate SD card, and make copies of the RAW file onto your computer, that should be all you have to do.https://photographylife.com/what-is-exif-data

author: tpowell1830
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 07, 2018, 04:23:25 pm
content: One way to document your setup is to go to a local college in the geographical department and ask the head of the department to bring students to do the documentation. This would be of interest and a teaching vehicle for the school and also be a non-biased system for legal purposes. This also could be a boon in the way of special instruments that only a school would have.Hope this helps..EDIT: I might also add that the possible downside of getting outside entities involved is that your property could get condemned and you would have to move out.

author: rhb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2018, 08:07:52 pm
content: In the United States and probably also in Great Britain, common law holds that if you make a regular practice of recording information, that absent proof of intent to deceive it constitutes legal proof.The date and time feature on a camera accompanied by periodically emailing the pictures to an email account will certainly suffice. You could create a yahoo or gmail account just for the purpose of archiving the photos. That will put a time stamp on the photo set which is beyond challenge, especially if you use accounts on both.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 11, 2018, 04:33:35 am
content: Quote from: ez24 on June 07, 2018, 02:19:59 amNow you're talking my language. :-)There are a number of creative ways you can deduce a date/time from an image and not all of them involve photographing the newspaper.As for legal challenges, yes, there are plenty (whether the defence has the technical knowledge to question it is a different story). For example, the "newspaper method" only proves that the photo was taken sometime after the newspaper was printed (and you would need someone to verify that the newspaper in the photo is the actual paper published on that date).Metadata is probably the most common way to record the time and date in digital photographs but that too can be challenged. When I'm giving evidence in court, if a defence is raised, I not only need to prove that the metadata hasn't been altered (metadata is very easy to alter/fake) but also the time and date were accurately set on the device at the time the photograph was taken (quite a bit harder to do).One method I use to tell the time in an outdoor photograph is by using shadows (photo forensics), it's actually quite accurate. You can increase accuracy if you can define a specific moment in time in other photos (or earlier video footage) and count back or forward to the point you are interested in.Completely infallible evidence is difficult to capture in a single photograph. If you could somehow photograph a known accurate time source (such as a GPS display) at the same time, that would help. You could also take two photos, one of the accurate time source then the second of your object. Along with the metadata, you could prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the metadata in both photos is accurate.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2018, 04:17:31 pm
content: I like the idea of emailing something to yourself to collect the server timestamps but does that guaranty that the email headers apply to that attachment?Some cameras include GPS for tagging the photograph location, time, and date.What about using a notary?

author: ez24
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2018, 04:21:09 am
content: I want to thank everyone for their ideas. Some were a surprise, especially the shadow one. Another surprise was that someone was actually giving forensic testimony on this subject. Also that this is a big problem and people are trying to solve it with blockchains (thanks Dave).I once saw a Forensic File show where the FBI used shadows in a video to prove that a guy killed a woman. I am going to look into installing a sundial with a bubble level to the building.Some things I thought about but would have done the wrong way - such as set up a special email account.I have a Samsung camera with wi-fi and I think it will upload pictures.I want to stress that I do not have money to hire professional help. Basically I want to prove that I am not lying. I think the more effort I put into this, the less chance I will have problems in the future.I just planted a fig tree next to where I will create a "level standard". This is at street level far from the building. I like the growing plant idea.I can't use plants near the building because I am afraid water will create a slip (I thing this is the correct geo word ?).I will upload photos to Yahoo and Amazon (they have free photo hosting for Prime Members).I am going to look into GPS devices.So I think I will be covered by taking pictures of the bubble levels, sundial, fig tree, and uploading them and maybe GPS.Attached are some pictures of the building. I forgot the Disney submarine portholes so I will post those later (the building has 3 portholes from a Disney submarine that was in Florida). Also the only ocean view from my property is from this building. I think future owners will tear down my house and garage and keep the Villa.Villa 1 - a picture of a digital level - 3 years ago, it reads the same todayVilla 3 - footing showing the skid and that this is a movable buildingVilla 4 - a view from downhill looking up to the northeastVilla 6 - a level mounted about 6 down and buried 6 feet deep - it looks the same as 5 years ago but I lost the installation photos. But I think it was about 1/32 from the line and now it is touching. I do not remember if I re-leveled the building since I installed this level. Thus the need for better documentationVilla 7 - a view from about 8 feet down - this is the west canyon wall

author: rhb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2018, 02:03:17 pm
content: I like the art work by the door.It strikes me that it would be quite difficult to change an attachment in an email you had received. But in any case, google and yahoo have backups which could be checked. That was really the argument of proof I had in mind. Not much way to change their backup tapes.Make sure the water level reference is on bedrock if at all possible. I was mapping during my geology summer field camp with another person. He wanted to map large outcrops of rock as bedrock. We had a rather heated argument about it because I was convinced they were boulders the size of a very large house. After we finished our mapping exercise we were shown the geological survey map. We had been working the entire time on top of a lahar. These are huge landslides produced by debris on the side of a volcano. They have been documented moving at 60 miles per hour and will easily carry a boulder the size of a 3 story office building. So just because it's big doesn't mean it is bedrock. Though for your purposes it it's a house size rock that will do.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 13, 2018, 07:05:20 pm
content: Sell!!

author: ez24
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2018, 07:21:44 pm
content: I found this by using the search term "GPS"https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.jeyluta.timestampcameraentThe key word they use is "non-forged"Later I will buy it and see if I can change the date, but on the surface I think this is the duck's uncle.Here are some pics of the Disney portholes. Every few years one shows up on eBay. The last one sold for $500The picture of the sub was sent to me as a very low res pic, I think 200 pixels. And my pic is a pic of the picIn Disney 1, I am pointing to the location where I built the Villa.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 13, 2018, 07:45:35 pm
content: ez24: I'm glad you found some solutions to your problem.I guess it depends at the end of the day what you're trying to prove. When it comes to proving date and time, usually a time stamp (such as on CCTV) is good enough. Even if the time/date is completely wrong (or not even set), it doesn't necessarily render the evidence inadmissible (even in murder trials), it all just depends on what other evidence you have. If you're being accused of something, it's not simply good enough for the prosecution to say "oh, your time stamps were wrong", they need to provide evidence to that effect. You, as the defendant in a matter could simply say, "well no, the time stamps are correct. I set the clock myself (or it's set Automatically via NTP) and look, here is the CCTV box, it still shows the correct time/date just as it did when the video was recorded".A sundial could be a good way to provide "redundancy" to a burnt-in date/time or metadata to be able to reliably and fairly accurately show the time of day and rough day of the year (through sunrise/sunset times). You don't even need to go out and spend money, everyday objects will do like trees, letter boxes etc... anything that casts a shadow.

author: metrologist
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2018, 08:04:56 pm
content: Quote from: ez24 on June 07, 2018, 04:18:37 amI might have missed it, but what is the intent of the photos? Are they to protect you from liability or prove negligence? I'm trying to understand why it would be of concern. If you plan to hire a contractor, it seems the results of that work would stand as evidence and any such contractor could provide a valid assessment.

author: ez24
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2018, 10:40:40 pm
content: Quote from: metrologist on June 13, 2018, 08:04:56 pmIntent - protection from liability and record movement over time to see if there is a problem. This second reason is because over years I lose things. But by using pipettes I can record numbers in a log. So now there is only one real reason - liabilityI have no plans to hire a contractor. The next owner will probably pay 1.5 million for a new house and they will be able to afford to install a toe at the base of the hill. The major effort is because the only possible ocean view is from the location of the villa. From there you can see Navy ships and islands. I live about 3 miles from the center of downtown of San Diego. As they say, it is a million dollar view. There is no view anywhere else on my property no matter where (up to two stories). I accidentally found the view one day by standing at the top of the compost pile (about 8 feet tall then)I will disclose that I built the villa on bedrock and moved it on a compost pile for the ocean view.From now on I want to document the movement or lack of.Unfortunately the app will not install - been trying for two hours nowI received the pipettes and they are big enough that I will not have to install them upside down. One location will be on bedrock (where I built the villa). I do not know where to place the other one. I plan to make a sketch and take a photo of it and ask rhb where to place it. It will be nice to be able to record a number.

author: metrologist
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2018, 06:10:16 am
content: Well, you do realize that you are responsible for the structure as you built it and placed it there. Then you became aware of this issue and believe it to pose a safety and liability concern. Further, you have taken measures...and no action. You cannot address the issue yourself and do not hire the appropriate services, not even for a qualified evaluation. If this persists, you are documenting your negligence over a period of time, which only builds to work against you. You are also only observing the symptom, although the cause seems obvious.I am sure I would be doing the same. I'm not made of money nor endless ability, either. I can truly sympathize with your situation, as fortunate as it seems to be