Low Priced Rigol MSO1074Z-s at Arrow - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: jiarui
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2020, 03:20:11 pm
content: I was looking for an inexpensive 4 channel scope. I was thinking of ordering the 1054z. I just happened to find that Arrow has the MSO1074Z-S for about the same price. It was about $350 when I ordered last week. And you get free one day shipping. I got mine a day later. It came with two channel 25Mhz signal generator, as well as the 16 channel digital probes. I'm very happy. Here is the link. The price has jumped a bit to $426. It's still a bargain.https://www.arrow.com/en/products/mso1074z-s/rigol-technologies-incArrow is also selling the older Rigol Spectrum Analyzer, DSA1030-tg3 for about $830 and the DSA1030A-tg3 for about $1300.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2020, 05:09:01 pm
content: That's an awesome deal with the digital probes, etc.What options does it have enabled? Do you get 24M memory? Does it have all the serial decoders, fancy triggers, etc?

author: jiarui
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 16, 2020, 02:48:00 am
content: It seems that all options are in Trial mode.

author: Trader
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 16, 2020, 05:05:19 am
content: I googled how to hack the MSO1074Z-S and is very complicated, need to open it, dump the memory, get a custom value in the dump, etc... almost nobody did that, there are no pics.The MSO1074Z-S is discontinued and replaced by the DS1104Z-S Plus, I don't know that they are different, but in the MSO1074Z-S seems the RPL1116 probe is free (it costs $200), then this MSO1074Z-S for $426 is an excellent price.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 16, 2020, 01:01:59 pm
content: Quote from: jiarui on January 16, 2020, 02:48:00 amIt's still a good price for a 70Mhz 'scope with signal generator, but... bummer.

author: jiarui
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 16, 2020, 03:46:55 pm
content: It seems that people have figure out how to hack it without needing to open it up. I'll try to hack mine. I'll let you know how it goes.

author: Trader
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 16, 2020, 04:41:47 pm
content: Comparing the regular price ($800) may be won't worth to buy an MSO:But with this price, what about comparing this:$426 MSO1074Z-S with "2 channel waveform generator25 MHz, and 16 channel logic analyzer".OR$350 DS1054Z + $100 "2 channel waveform generator60 MHz" + $30 "USB16 channel logic analyzer" (total $480).Both scopes hacked to 100MHz with all installed options unlocked.Softwares asPulseView,Saleae Logic,DSViewoffer several analyze resources, making more efficient use the PC for Logic Analyzing, and maybe a 60 MHz generator could be better than a 25 MHz.Opinions are welcome.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 16, 2020, 05:30:57 pm
content: Those USB 16 channel logic analyzers are cute/cheap but they're not real time. It's more: Press record, press stop, analyze.The MSO option on the DS1054Z shows the digital signals in real time so it's not really comparable.Hacking it IS possible but I think you have to open it and use a JTAG programmer:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/is-the-rigol-mso1074z-hackable/You can get JTAG programmers on eBay for under $10 so it's not the end of the world, just inconvenient and requires breaking the warranty void sticker.Then again: Warranty void stickers are also under $10 per sheet on eBay, as are the tools for removing them without breaking them.

author: tv84
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 16, 2020, 06:10:18 pm
content: It should be possible without opening the case.

author: Trader
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 17, 2020, 03:06:46 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on January 16, 2020, 01:01:59 pmThere is a trade-off between using it with the options locked and 3-years warranty or hacking it and lose the warranty.How much does worth the 3-years warranty if any problem happens during this time?

author: Trader
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 17, 2020, 07:21:07 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on January 16, 2020, 05:30:57 pm@Fungus I saw some videos of MSOs Real-Time Logic Analyzer and the channels change so fast that is almost impossible to understand what is going on without Pause and analyze the behavior of the channels.The only utility I saw is to figure out some noise (some change where shouldn't change). Do you know what is the real utility of this super-fast real-time channels updates?

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 17, 2020, 07:37:02 am
content: Quote from: Trader on January 17, 2020, 07:21:07 amMSOs can pause and analyze too.Quote from: Trader on January 17, 2020, 07:21:07 amImagine if you had to constantly press record and stop on an analog 'scope.It's the same thing...

author: Trader
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 17, 2020, 08:42:42 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on January 17, 2020, 07:37:02 amIn an oscilloscope, we need to see moving images to check if the waveform is as expected.I a logic analyzer we need to check if the channels are coding correctly the signal and confirm the decode information (must be static).But as in the first video, the serial protocols usually use just 1, 2 or 4 ports and you can decode them in most of the oscilloscopes (with real-time changes). 8 or 16 ports is necessary just for a specific niche.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 17, 2020, 10:10:36 am
content: Quote from: Trader on January 17, 2020, 08:42:42 amYou seem to be only thinking of averynarrow set of signals.Some signals only change at 1Hz, you want to see if the signal is thereSome signals only happen in response to other signals, you want to trigger on one signal and see if there's a reply (no need to decode, just see if there's a response, see how long it takes, etc).You might want to see PWM outputs changing in real time.If you're developing software on an Arduino then it's a real pain in the ass to have to press record/stop after every recompile just to be able to see if your pins are changing or not.etc.

author: Howardlong
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 17, 2020, 11:42:44 am
content: I have an MSO1074Z-S (uphacked, I was an early adopter, and had to take the lid off and use a JTAG debugger). I also have a couple of the $100 60MHz FY-6900 plus a Saleae.First, the Saleae hardly ever gets used, indeed I can't remember the last time I used it. It's only if I need to capture a particularly long trace that I used it. The main reason is that with an MSO (and traditional logic analysers) you set up triggers rather than relying on huge memory and post processing. In my experience, the trigger options of the Saleae are incredibly limited. Simply put, you just use the tools in a different way: how do you think we all managed before Saleae?Secondly, the $100 function generators are OK for the price, particularly as they go to 24Vpp. Downsides of the MSO1074Z-S signal generator are that it has limited amplitude (5Vpp into Hi-Z), relatively speaking the AWG can be a bit of a fight to use with the UI, and irritatingly the BNC jacks are on the back. On the plus side, unlike many other scopes with integrated signal generators, it is a dual unit. Having the unit integrated into the scope itself is great for field use, and that's precisely what I use the MSO1074Z-S for. Functionally speaking, only the amplitude restriction has been a practical limitation for my use cases. You can phase offset both channels too, so you can use it to create things like quadrature oscillators.Finally, I'll also add some practical notes about how the LA integrates in the MSO1074Z-S. The key benefit is that both analogue and digital signals are time correlated, something that would be fiddly with a separate scope and LA. My work is very much mixed signal in the area of digital communications, so this is quite an important facet. Each batch of eight digital signals is used at the expense of one analogue port, so you can operate the scope as 4+0, 3+8 or 2+16 channels.Digital channel usage also affects sample rate, so running only 8 LA channels and no analogue channels (and no analogue trigger) you get an LA sample rate of 1GSa/s, which is clearly immensely better than any Saleae. Add an analogue channel or trigger, or increase to 16 LA channels and the sample rate goes down to 500MSa/s. If you run more channels, it goes down to 250MSa/s.I've found that the digital connector on the scope can collect dust and the connection becomes intermittent, so keep that in mind.The screen very quickly becomes cluttered when you add digital channels.Just as with the analogue channels, the decode is limited to what's displayed. Using trigger functionality is often key to using decode effectively.I don't use any PC based software with the scope, so I can't comment on that aspect.What I would say is that for a field scope, if an Analogue Discovery won't cut it due to its own limitations, an MSO1074Z-S is a very worthy upgrade. For $350, what are you waiting for?

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 17, 2020, 01:26:37 pm
content: Quote from: Howardlong on January 17, 2020, 11:42:44 amThat, too.

author: Trader
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 17, 2020, 06:05:51 pm
content: Thank you so much @Fungus and @Howardlong for your very detailed analysis, I learned a lot with your answers. Thank you.I was not considering to pay +$400 for an "upgrade" because I already have a DS1054Z + FY-6900 + Saleae; I can't find a reason to "see in real-time" because the logic analyzer can store several seconds of real-data to be analyzed (microcontrollers have a lot of repetition/loopings).I also can see digital signals in the DS1054Z and even decode those signals. The most used serial protocols (RS232, SPI, I2C) use 1, 2 or maybe 4 channels and around 10MHz, the scope will show and decode them in real-time.About the "analog and digital signals time correlation", as far I know, I can use the Trigger Output to synchronization. And some logical analyzers (like Saleae) can also show Analog Signals with enough quality to see if the expected signal is there.https://support.saleae.com/tutorials/example-projects/how-to-measure-analog-signalshttps://www.electronicproducts.com/Software/Development_Tools_and_Software/Hands_on_review_Analyze_signals_with_free_open_source_sigrok_PulseView.aspxIf I had none oscilloscope yet, yes, that price will be a Big Advantage.

author: TopLoser
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 17, 2020, 11:09:06 pm
content: Quote from: jiarui on January 15, 2020, 03:20:11 pmDon't forget the Arrow "10% off" code for January - WELCOME

author: Trader
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 18, 2020, 07:34:53 am
content: Quote from: jiarui on January 16, 2020, 03:46:55 pmThis video is old, need to open the MSO, but you can have an idea. Let us know if you did hack it up successfully and what steps to do that.

author: TopLoser
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 21, 2020, 08:54:58 pm
content: Quote from: jiarui on January 16, 2020, 03:46:55 pmI got one from Arrow at the sale price and with 10% off, arrived a few days ago. Took me 15 minutes to hack it using the method described earlier by PeDre, no need to open the case it was all done over the ethernet connection.

author: oPossum
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 22, 2020, 12:13:30 am
content: Quote from: jiarui on January 16, 2020, 03:46:55 pmBefore you do that, contact Rigol and tell them you have recently purchased a MSO1074Z that did not come with all features unlocked. They will probably ask for serial and proof of purchase and then give you a license for all features.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 22, 2020, 12:30:48 am
content: Quote from: Trader on January 17, 2020, 03:06:46 amIf it was only $350 I wouldn't think twice about voiding the warranty, at that low of a price it's hardly worth the hassle and expense of sending it in for service unless it failed a very short time after purchasing. I'd probably put it through its paces for a few weeks and give it a good shakedown to make sure nothing is wrong out of the box and then hack away. I mean I've spent more than that on scopes that I *knew* were broken and that I'd need to repair them.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 22, 2020, 12:44:42 am
content: Quote from: oPossum on January 22, 2020, 12:13:30 amYou still need to hack it for bandwidth though so if it can be done without opening it, then...

author: TopLoser
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 22, 2020, 11:51:31 am
content: I think there has been a lot of confusion about the 'closed case' method of hacking this scope because version 0.4.2 of rigup appears to be broken and doesn't generate keys correctly. I'm taking about this one -http://gotroot.ca/rigol/rigup-0.4.2-x86_64-win.zipDon't use it!I used version 0.4.0 and 0.4.1 and they both worked correctly, scanning for keys and generating licenses without a problem.I've attached working versions of both the tools you need.

author: Howardlong
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 22, 2020, 04:35:03 pm
content: Quote from: Trader on January 17, 2020, 06:05:51 pmI guess it depends on your use case and how much effort you want to spend on figuring out ways around things when you could be using that effort to build stuff. I didn't have an MSO until 2014, and I did similar things to yourself: back then (decent) MSOs were still expensive items.The real time aspect comes from the use of triggers to analyse rather than post processing searches. Both have their place, and there is indeed overlap in the use case, however I've been brought up to use triggers so I'm far more likely to go that route. It's only recently we've had the benefit of these super long memories. As I alluded to earlier, the bandwidth of the Saleae I find to be quite a limiting aspect.I find PC based solutions are generally sub optimal when compared to a purpose built appliance, with knobs and whatnot. My main exception is that I do use the Analog Discovery frequently, because despite its limitations (bandwidth and memory), it's super portable and its UI is significantly better than most other USB instruments I'm aware of.You can indeed use the trigger out to synchronise, but that's only one way as I understand it, and there'll be a delay, although bearing in mind the low bandwidth of the Saleae, it's probably not that noticeable!All I can say is that once I'd used a decent MSO, my LA (in those days an Intronix Logicport) rarely came out of the drawer.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 22, 2020, 06:08:32 pm
content: If this beat is really unlockable with just a bit of command line fiddling then it should be in the "Test Equipment 'Scores'!" thread.Just the digital probes normally sell for about $300.

author: jiarui
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2020, 04:36:02 am
content: Following the instructions of PeDre and TopLoser (especially the posted copy of the Rigup for Windows), I was able to unlock all of the options. It took me a while. The downloading of the firmware took a while (close to 10 minutes), with fair amount of error messages.I also replaced the fan with a quieter fan. Everything is working well.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2020, 09:19:38 am
content: Quote from: jiarui on February 15, 2020, 04:36:02 amGood to know!