Which to Learn? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Sal Ammoniac
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 21, 2022, 05:34:46 pm
content: I few years ago I looked into PCB design tools, but never got around to actually using any of them. Now I need to design a PCB and will need to choose one.I paid for a CircuitStudio license several years back, and installed it. It was version 1.5. When I look at the Altium site today, I notice it's still at v1.5 -- no updates in the past 2-3 years. That makes me wonder if CircuitStudio has been abandoned by Altium and whether I should bother learning it and using it, or try something else that's actually supported and actively developed.So does CircuitStudio have a future? Is it worth bothering to learn to use it, or should I chuck it and try something else?

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 21, 2022, 11:08:29 pm
content: A couple of questions:How complex is the board you want to make?Do you expect to make more boards?Do you want to get a job as a PCB designer some day?If the answers are: not so complex, maybe, not really then sticking to CS is a good option unless the version you have has lots of bugs that make it a pain to work with. Typically I upgrade my CAD package after more than 5 years. I'm not going to chase the latest & greatest; as long as the software is up to the task then it works for me.

author: Sal Ammoniac
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2022, 09:44:15 pm
content: My answer to your question is not so complex, no*, and no.*I only plan to make 2-3 boards for each design and make perhaps 1-2 new designs a year. This is all hobby stuff. At work we have guys who do this full-time.I'm not sure why CircuitStudio hasn't been updated in years. I'm hoping because it's stable without any major bugs and not because Altium has given up on it as a product.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2022, 09:55:34 pm
content: In that case it might be worthwile to spend some time on watching tutorial videos for CircuitStudio and Kicad. See what workflow suits you best. An advantage of Kicad is that there is a large support community so if you get stuck there are many people out there who can help you. The downside is that Kicad just released a new version (version 6) with some big (but good) changes. A lot of material may be outdated.

author: Feynman
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2022, 06:40:15 am
content: If you want a tool that looks good on your resume I would suggest the big ones: Altium, OrCAD/Allegro, PADS (Professional).

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2022, 11:02:39 am
content: Quote from: evb149 on February 23, 2022, 07:40:15 amI'd suggest to use git for this; no need to mess with numbered files and copies of copies of copies.On top of that, if you have remote file access to your computer (a drive share or SSH) you can configure the git repository to fetch / push data from/to a different computer. Git makes keeping copies synchronised across different computers very easy without need cloud services.

author: alexanderbrevig
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2022, 02:29:00 pm
content: https://www.kicad.org/and make sure you get version 6.0.2 (worth going through some hoops if you install from a slow/stable OS)What you gain from using KiCAD is a nice community, and ability to open and look at a lot of open source projects. It is also powerful enough to grow with you on your journeyAside: I have used Altium (for production), DipTrace (for production), Eagle (for sale but hobby), EasyEDA (for a client) and an honorable mention to Horizon EDA (for fun, made by a forum member) for actual board runs. KiCAD is my "daily driver" and the one I like the most. YMMV.My tip, take the time to learn more than one.

author: asmi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2022, 04:30:45 pm
content: For hobby stuff use KiCAD, unless it's so advanced as to require higher-end commercial tools - but in the latter case you'd likely already know the answer to that question.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2022, 04:53:08 pm
content: CircuitMaker. free version of CircuitStudio

author: Sal Ammoniac
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2022, 05:14:28 pm
content: Thanks for the replies everyone. I've decided to devote a few hours this weekend to try out CircuitStudio and KiCad 6. That should give me enough hands-on experience to make a decision. I've already watched all of Altium's videos on CircuitStudio and everything seems straightforward--hopefully that translates well when I start using it--and will watch some KiCad videos as well.To address some other points in the replies: I use Windows and have no intention of switching. I use Git for everything--source code, documentation, etc.--so I will use it for version control of CircuitStudio or KiCad files. And lastly, this is strictly for hobby use--I have no intention of doing this professionally--so I have no need to be mindful of what looks good on a resume/CV.

author: Sal Ammoniac
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2022, 05:15:08 pm
content: Quote from: free_electron on February 23, 2022, 04:53:08 pmAs I mentioned in my first post, I've already paid for a CircuitStudio license.

author: voltsandjolts
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 24, 2022, 08:33:29 pm
content: @OPCS was borne out of some kind of deal between Farnell/Element14 and Altium. Both of them have dropped the ball, CS could have been very good with some small effort, but they lost interest. Apparently Altium is launching an updated all-new CS but that was supposedly beta testing 18 months ago!The best bit of CS is that it has similar workflow to AD, with compatible libraries and schematics. So, its a good one for the CV if your trying for a seat at an Altium desk. CS PCBs can be easily imported into AD but the other way isn't so easy, although doable.I've published a few small demo projects done with CS, they might help you get started:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/circuit-studio/example-project-relay-scan-card-for-k2000-dmm/https://www.eevblog.com/forum/circuit-studio/example-project-20-channel-solid-state-scan-card-for-k2000-dmm/https://www.eevblog.com/forum/circuit-studio/example-project-tektronix-tekprobe-adapterbreakout/In the first COVID wave, Altium had some very good pricing for CS to AD upgrades so I jumped on that. Yeh, sucker! AD is good but sometimes I miss the simpler CS interface. CS has missing productivity features such as 'find similar objects' (my biggest gripe) and some minor bugs, but for smaller designs I still think its very usable.

author: Uky
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2022, 10:38:59 am
content: Choosing a low-cost tool and then discovering that its capabilitiesare limited once the designs have to deal with eg. high-speed circuitrywhich requires some sort of constraint management is not desirable.What people also often forget is the cost of the libraries, bought or created.Maintaining a library is an effort that should not be underestimated.

author: alexanderbrevig
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2022, 10:57:20 am
content: Quote from: Uky on February 28, 2022, 10:38:59 amQuote from: Sal Ammoniac on February 22, 2022, 09:44:15 pmThey could choose a different CAD for each project and not think twice about it.Not trying to argue your point, though I think it's unhealthy for a beginner to be given an advice that they should marry their CAD.Option paralysis is much worse for a hobbyist, than having to migrate a small hobbyist library once in a while.

author: Electro Fan
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2022, 05:55:11 am
content: Quote from: alexanderbrevig on February 23, 2022, 02:29:00 pmWhat would you say are the key pros and cons of KiCAD vs DipTrace? Thanks

author: alexanderbrevig
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2022, 11:54:08 am
content: A pro for DipTrace is the existence of high speed tools (length matching et.al), another one is the ability to get support and talk with a human.For cons, the list is short and the only one I remember (which may have a solution now) was the lack of net labels in the layout tool. KiCAD labels pins and nets and I found the lack of labels quite disorienting.Personally KiCAD wins because it is open source and I maintain a private branch that makes a DRC error if a label is used only once. I.e it must be connected.The usability gap between the two has been heavily minimized with v6 of KiCAD, but it still feel a bit more polished and beginner friendly I'd say.Good luck!

author: Bicurico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2022, 05:17:21 pm
content: If you are open to learn something new from scratch, why don't you take a look at Fusion 360 and give it a go?I know many here hate Autodesk for what it did to Eagle and the fact that it is subscription based.But if you ignore that resentment, the truth is that Fusion 360 is the future tool for many companies. It is cheap and it combines all CAD/CAM/CAE tasks. You can for instance develop a circuit in the electronic design module and then have a 3D model generated automatically with all components used. This allows to design the products case. Also, you can generate the toolpaths to drill the holes in the PCB while the additive manufacturing module produces the toolpath for your 3D printer.You can even do a FEA simulation using the brand new electronics cooling simulation to determine if the cooling of your PCB is adequate.It costs 415 Euro per year and is free for students and start-ups with less than 100.000$ sales/year (or something similar).Regards,Vitor

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2022, 06:36:23 pm
content: If you're using it for your hobbies and your employer isn't paying for it then KiCAD is IMHO the obvious way to go. It's completely free, has no artificial limitations and it has been getting better all the time.

author: Sal Ammoniac
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 20, 2022, 11:38:24 pm
content: Quote from: Bicurico on March 19, 2022, 05:17:21 pmI’ve never been adverse to paying for good tools, even as a hobbyist, so a yearly subscription fee doesn’t bother me. I already pay for things like MS Office, Photoshop, and Adobe Premier that way. The Autodesk website seems to imply that the subscription is cloud-based—is that correct? If it is, exactly what does cloud-based mean in this context? Does it mean that all of the schematic and PCB layout documents created using Fusion are stored in the cloud and not locally? If so, that would be a deal breaker for me.

author: H.O
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2022, 06:29:33 am
content: QuoteToday yes. Next year it might be €1000 (or, to be fair, €200) and may or may not be free for students/startups or it'll still be free but all of a sudden you're only allowed to generate gerbers for 2-layer boards with the free version. (They severely limited the G-code export in the free version didn't they?)The point is that you don't know and it's not like you can stop paying and stick with what you have - once you stop paying it stops working.

author: Bicurico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2022, 07:21:21 am
content: It stops working but you still get access to your files.It is cloud based, so yes, the designs are stored somewhere on some Amazon servers. This seems bad at first sight, but once you try it, it is really convenient. You log into any computer with Fusion installed or start it inside a browser and you have all your files.Don't seem to me that it is less secure than OneDrive or similar servicesRegarding the future: nobody knows. But Autodesk has a history in providing students with full working software for free and the concept behind Fusion is to offer a very affordable, or by other words, cheap, software that is a door opener to the Autodesk world. You can then buy extensions for further functionality.Do you know what Altium be like in 10 years? What if KiCAD changes their policy or the devolpers don't agree and fork the software development?There is always a risk....

author: Bicurico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2022, 10:16:53 am
content: You are correct in what you are saying.I was just pointing out that:a) Fusion 360 does exist and may be an alternativeb) It is powerfull due to combining different manufacturing aspectsc) Many of the concerns (like the ones you mention) may not be that important: Cloud based is probably as secure as using files locally (they can be victims of ransomware for example or you can delete them by acccident or the harddisk may fail, etc.); commercial application may be closed source subject to licensing, but then a typical project is developed over the period of 1-5 years - who cares about the files after that? And why should Autodesk or any other vendor stop selling their products?Finally, when you are using free/open source software, who will you complain with, when the software does not work as expected? Having access to the source code hardly means you will be able to do somthing with it, unless you are a programmer - in which case you will probably not be using the software as a user.Anyway, I don't want to start another discussion on free vs paid software, cloud vs non-cloud, subscription vs perpetual, etc. I agree that subscription is bullshit for the user, as you are in the hands of the software provider. But: subscription will be the future for most if not all commercial software products and if their productivity and functionality is much better than equivalent alternative software that is not subscription based, you are screwed, as you can choose to be a) dependent on subscription or b) less productive.And yes, software companies adopt subscription due to the sole reason of maximising their profits and to have consistent flow of income, which values them in regards to shareholders.

author: Electro Fan
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2022, 01:58:34 am
content: I just loaded the the latest version of KiCad (6.0.4). The last time I gave KiCad a try the UI didn’t seem to conform real well with what might be expected from mouse clicks. Now it seems to make more sense with mouse clicks, so it’s not so dependent on shortcut keys. It’s nice to use programs that work with both the mouse and keys. Up until now I was leaning toward DipTrace due to ease of entry level use but the new KiCad UI plus it’s large user base makes it pretty attractive. Looks like some nice simulation and 3D add-ons in addition to schematic and board layout functionality. I don’t really need to make PCBs but if I did and I was going to give PCB CAD a try KiCad looks like they have it pretty well on the railroad tracks.As just an enthusiast trying to learn electricity and electronics it seems that if you can draw and simulate circuits and then layout PCBs that can be built to order you might be on the path to somewhere good or at least fun.KiCad 6 looks pretty neat.

author: Unixon
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2022, 10:50:03 am
content: Quote from: Bicurico on March 21, 2022, 10:16:53 amCloud is only as secure as local storage when it is YOUR cloud running on YOUR hardware located on YOUR property.Quote from: Bicurico on March 21, 2022, 10:16:53 amAny project is a reusable collection of solutions, it's always an important part of legacy of human civilization, loosing the results of a work means wasting time and effort of people who created the project.Quote from: Bicurico on March 21, 2022, 10:16:53 amAt least you can hire a programmer to do changes you want, which at a bare minimum could mean to just make a software run on a new OS or new hardware.Without the sources all you have is a walking dead of a software that will fall at first compatibility issue and never rise up again no matter how much you want it.And not being a programmer nowadays... wtf are you doing with your life? [just kidding]Quote from: Bicurico on March 21, 2022, 10:16:53 amIt's a very bad if not the worst of possible futures, I think their unstoppable greed will come after them and destroy these companies as less restrictive alternatives will appear.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2022, 05:11:35 pm
content: I do not rent software, period. This is non-negotiable, I will do without if I can't purchase a perpetual license or use open source. I absolutely refuse to support or encourage the subscription model.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2022, 05:23:00 pm
content: Quote from: Bicurico on March 21, 2022, 10:16:53 amTo companies that provide paid support for open source software. You can buy support for every major open source package (including Kicad).QuoteOTOH: having a steady outgoing stream of money is not good for companies either. If a company hits a rough time, it is good to have all the production tools staying available. Companies that rent everything basically get the rug pulled out from under them when they are unable to pay the rent.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2022, 11:45:51 pm
content: QuoteYep - exactly the same as the version I last upgraded to, because it will be that exact version. Doesn't matter if the internet dies, Altium goes bankrupt, Amazon servers go AWOL. Everything is here and will work exactly as they do now without any external access. All my data files will be editable with the program too if I want. The user interface won't suddenly change one day because some dimwit web developer prefers a white on cream design. That useful feature I can get to in my sleep won't suddenly be in a different place (or entirely missing).The snag is that I might, in the meantime, have upgraded my OS to something which lacks backwards compatibility for the version of Altium I want to use. Then I can decide if it's worth paying to upgrade, jump ship, run a VM, something..., but it will be entirely in my control and occur when I want to deal with it (or not).Same applies to Kicad, of course. And, for completeness, Proteus (although I have a recent version I also still have and use a 2011 version just because I like the separate tools). Perhaps others too. Fusion?