The beginning of SMT, old equipment - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2020, 01:08:12 pm
content: I had seen parts surface mounted from Japan in the early 70s but I was not personally involved with it in until the 80s.We had a small benchtop pick and place machine that had a dedicated PC with it. I think it used audio tapes like the early hobby computers. It was made by a major Japanese company. Maybe Sanyo. I tried to find a picture of it to show.

author: gooligumelec
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2020, 07:17:41 am
content: I've been sorting through (tossing out most of) my old hobby electronics magazines. I was surprised in a 1981 or '82 (no later than that) Electronics Today to see a project where they specified some SMT parts because they needed to minimise lead inductance.So if it was starting to hit the hobby sphere by the early '80s, it must have existed in industry in the '70s.

author: greenpossum
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2020, 08:22:40 am
content: I remember data sheets from the TTL (standard, not LS), and maybe even the DTL period that offered flatpack packages. So they go back many decades.Here we are, a DTL chip from 1966 with flat package option.

author: capt bullshot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2020, 08:41:43 am
content: Quote from: greenpossum on August 19, 2020, 08:22:40 amSeen them too. Often with shiny gold plated leads, so I imagined they were typically used in hi-rel aerospace, spacecraft or military applications.

author: exe
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 19, 2020, 10:28:02 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on August 19, 2020, 08:30:37 amAh, yes, remember them too! I've seen ICs inwhiteceramic substrate and gold leads. Presumably, those were for military/aerospace applications.Some more examples can be seen here:https://xlom.ru/vidy-metalloloma/radiolom-raznovidnosti-opisanie.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2020, 11:39:28 am
content: From my old computer from the early 70s. This was the only board made in Japan. The rest were all made in the USA using TH parts.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2020, 11:59:45 am
content: but , people ! the original IC's WERE surface mounted !The apollo flight computer was all SMTAll the early Cray machines ( Cray -i ) was all SMTThe very first RTL gates from Texas instruments came in 10 pin ceramic SMT package. That was 1 year after the invention of the IC !Surface mount is as old as the integrated circuit.

author: exe
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 19, 2020, 12:38:20 pm
content: Why we had TH components at all? For manual assembly?

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2020, 02:20:07 pm
content: Quote from: exe on August 19, 2020, 12:38:20 pmI would guess that what we today think of as through-hole components, were once considered point-to-point components with no PCB in sight...

author: greenpossum
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2020, 02:35:58 pm
content: Quote from: exe on August 19, 2020, 12:38:20 pmOnce upon a time there were no boards and holes, unless you count the holes in the terminal strips.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2020, 02:39:15 pm
content: Quote from: greenpossum on August 19, 2020, 08:22:40 amIt seems that the early/original 1961 and onwards, TTL devices. Were especially for military applications. Hence the (what we would call surface mount), what they called, 14 lead flat-pack, packages.This is from 1966, although it was originally from 1963, when it was that manufacturer.http://www.bitsavers.org/components/sylvania/SM2927_Sylvania_Universal_High_Level_Logic_May66.pdfThe following link, explains the early TTL, was before Texas Instruments (around 1964), industry standard versions. Apparently, before the 74 series, there was actually a 64 series. (Military can be the 54 series).https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7400-series_integrated_circuitsQuoteEDIT:Here we go. Link seems to say, first flat packs, invented in 1962.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flatpack_(electronics)Quote

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2020, 11:40:11 pm
content: Even prior to the general use of ICs, surface mount capacitors were used in wideband RF amplifiers.They were commonly called "chip capacitors" in those days------- the modern ones look exactly the same, & are used in the same application!

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2020, 01:26:21 am
content: Quote from: free_electron on August 19, 2020, 11:59:45 amBut Free_electron!!! I don't believe there was a single post about WHEN ICs were first surface mounted!!I was actually more curious about how people were processing them. That first P&P machine we ever had looked like it was made by Fisher Price for a 9 year old. It was slow enough that we could assemble boards faster by hand.Quote from: exe on August 19, 2020, 12:38:20 pmWe were very slow to adopt SMT mainly because of reliability. TH parts had a bit more give to them. I remember damaging some of the early boards with the potting compound. At one point we were using conformal coating to give the potting some cushion. 10 or so years later we ran into problems again with potting with some QFPs. The thermal expansion was enough to fracture the joints. I think back to those days compared with the parts we place today. It's amazing how things have changed.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2020, 11:59:06 am
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on August 19, 2020, 02:20:07 pmcorrect. resistors caps and liek were soldered to eyelets.when circuit boards came along , bend the leads and poke them in holes.vacuum tubes got pins for sockets.transistors came along when circuit boards were already common so it made sense to give em leads like capacitors and resistors wo we can poke them in holes.when integrated circuits came into existence stuff had advanced far enough that surface mounting was possible. it does not make sense to make a microchip and then stuff it in a package that occupies more space than its implementation with discretes would do...Now, there is another reason the first IC's were ceramic flat-pack.- hermetical sealing: the epoxy compound we all now know did not exist ( the compound existed , but not the method of packaging ic's in it ) . ceramic side brazed packages already existed. They could be leak tested , so perfect for the fragile integrated circuit.- cooling : the first ic's were power hungry and ran hot. pack a bunch together and you have a thermal issue... the ceramic material is a good heat conductor. put the ic on a board and press a heatsink to the package.That's what Cray did. They did not want pins through a board as every pin occupies a potential routing channel. Many connections could be made without using a single via so the gain in routing density was very large. you could pack the devices closer to each other increasing the assembly density. And that was the entire goal : miniaturisation.

author: jmelson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2020, 03:42:03 am
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on August 15, 2020, 01:08:12 pmI have a computer that was built in 1965 for the X15 project (Chuck Yeager and all, breaking the sound barrier) that is entirely built with surface mount chips.That is the Honeywell Alert.Jon

author: rrinker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2020, 03:29:29 pm
content: Quote from: free_electron on August 20, 2020, 11:59:06 amIf you look at the Sylvania datasheet MK14 posted, they specifically mention the sealing as well as the thermal transfer characteristics for the flat pack in the section on the packaging near the bottom. The more things change, the more they stay the same.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2020, 06:32:40 pm
content: Quote from: jmelson on August 21, 2020, 03:42:03 amwould you please post a few pictures of it? I'm a bit of a vintage computer buff.

author: jmelson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2020, 01:18:18 am
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on August 21, 2020, 06:32:40 pmYes, I really need to do this! I'll see if I find time this weekend.Jon

author: jmelson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2021, 12:30:08 am
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on August 21, 2020, 06:32:40 pmOK, it's been a long time, but here are some pics.Note this is serial # 5. I believe this computer came from Emerson Electric, and was used on the AN/ASQ-96 project, which apparentlywas for locating the position of enemy radars. But, the Honeywell Alert computer was developed for the X-15 project, and is mentioned in Chuck Yeager's book as the "mini-honey". It is a 24-bit computer, and was one of the first built with integrated circuits. Although it shares this honor with the Apollo Guidance Computer, which was started about a year earlier, it was delivered and flew on the X-15 first.The computer fits in a 1/2 ATR rack, and the memory module fits in the same size housing next to it (not pictured).It draws 25 A at 5 V DC, and fits on 6 modules that have two boards laminated together with chips on both sides.Honeywell contracted with Texas Instruments to develop the ICs for this machine, a form of DTL. Although the computer is connected to the outside world with ordinary D-style connectors. there are no connectors inside! Each of the 6 modules is connected to the backplane by flexible cables, and cooled by being clamped to aluminum plates between the modules. When the clamping bolts are removed, the modules can be swung open like a book.First picture is the connector end of the computer.Second picture is the label Emerson Electric applied to the case. 3rd picture is the Honeywell label.4th and 5th pictures are of the modules on each side of the computer, 6th picture is between a couple of the modules.7th pic is the cooling structure, last pic is another view between the modules.

author: jmelson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2021, 12:32:10 am
content: Hmmm, too many large pics, I guess.

author: jmelson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2021, 12:33:48 am
content: And some more...

author: jmelson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2021, 12:34:30 am
content: And the last couple.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2021, 01:41:07 am
content: Jnelson, are you Major Nelson, an airforce pilot married to a genie?At any rate, thank you for the beautiful pictures. The method of opening the boards with no connectors reminded me of my Casio AS-A - some pictures atmy siteNot as early, but the 1970's calculators quickly migrated to surface mount to reduce costs and miniaturization.

author: jmelson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2021, 01:50:55 am
content: Quote from: rsjsouza on March 15, 2021, 01:41:07 amHardly, but this artifact is as close as I'll ever get to Chuck Yeager, etc.Jon

author: Benta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2021, 01:53:34 pm
content: @Jon, those pictures are just way too cool! Thanks.IIRC, those military ceramic/gold flatpacks weren't soldered, but welded to the PCB (which is probably also ceramic). Can you confirm?

author: jmelson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2021, 03:22:44 pm
content: Quote from: Benta on March 15, 2021, 01:53:34 pmI had a program loading/test console that came with the computer where the chips were ultrasonically welded to pins on the boards.Then, the backs of the boards had something like wire-wrap wire ultrasonically welded to the pins.But, this Alert computer is NOT built that way. The chips are, as far as I can tell, HAND soldered to the glass-epoxy boards.Some of the boards in the middle of the machine have LOTS of patch wires and glued-on chips on them.The circuit modules have no traces on the outside of the modules. All power and signal traces are buried inside the boards.There is a massively thick motherboard that must have lots of layers to interconnect everything.Also, as far as I can tell, the computer still works. The first time I powered it up, I verified I could "jam in" 1's or 0's to most of the registers, but couldn't get it to clock. The major registers have set and reset pins of the FFs brought out to connectors for this. Later, I found you needed to supply -6 V for the clock generator. Then, I could jam instructions into the memory read connector and the memory address would count up an various rates. The multiply is a lot slower than add. That is as far as I got with it.Jon