Incandescent light bulbs to make a comeback? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Macbeth
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 12, 2016, 05:11:24 pm
content: New development could lead to more effective lightbulbsBad old incandescents are only 2-3% efficient. LED's and CFL's are ~13% efficient. This new tech could make incandescents 40% efficient by reflecting back the infra-red to the filament.Initial prototype has acheived 6.6% efficiency.

author: Tomorokoshi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 12, 2016, 05:18:47 pm
content: Regenerative lighting!

author: chris_leyson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 12, 2016, 06:37:57 pm
content: It's a really clever idea, reflecting the IR back onto the filiament. Only 6.6% efficient at the moment but it's early days.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 12, 2016, 11:46:59 pm
content: Incandescent bulbs are back on the shelves. They go for about 1.5 dollars each now, vs 1 dollar for four then.Apparently the environmental issues of cfl bulbs are just too much for most people, to the dismay of environmentalists who used to push those cdl bulbs.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 12, 2016, 11:50:12 pm
content: Quote from: dannyf on January 12, 2016, 11:46:59 pmMost CFLs are terrible light sources, but people shouldn't be put off by energy saving bulbs.LEDs are perfect and I've never had an issue with any of the decent ones. (The cheap ones die pretty quickly.)I don't see much of a market for CFLs in 5 years as LEDs will be able to outprice all but the cheapest.

author: Macbeth
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2016, 12:03:50 am
content: Quote from: dannyf on January 12, 2016, 11:46:59 pmYou're lucky, 100W are banned in the EU. Despite me using a remote dimmer switch in my bedroom so as to not waste energy (which is also hooked up to a disco mirror ball and the 90's HIFI with Barry White CD permanently stuck inside) I only have a couple left. I have to ask my neighbours cousins drug dealer if he knows of any 100W bulb shipments coming up in the downtown...

author: edavid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2016, 12:05:37 am
content: There are LED prototypes that have > 50% external quantum efficiency, so LEDs are still ahead in meaningless efficiency claims.

author: rdl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2016, 12:07:07 am
content: It shouldn't be long before LED type bulbs are under $2. I've actually bought some (name brand) at Home Depot recently for $3. Not bad at all considering how much longer they last. My oldest LED bulbs have been in use over three years now. One of them runs 24/7 and is in a fixture where the regular incandescent types were burning out every 2-3 months. That one has already saved me plenty just in reduction of replacement cost.

author: MT
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2016, 12:13:13 am
content: Sooo light bulbs are the source of global warming! I had no idea!

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2016, 12:13:41 am
content: Quote from: Macbeth on January 13, 2016, 12:03:50 amOdd, the local pound shop (a large regional chain) still sells 150W bulbs, and 100W pearl ones. Wonder if they're ex stock. I don't use them for lighting, but they make handy load test units and power limiters for repairing power supplies (e.x.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ROYHWY79784)

author: Macbeth
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2016, 12:23:44 am
content: Cheers tom, I now know where my neighbours aunties catnip dealer gets them from! (are they the "rough use" types for industrial use? - 25% less light per watt so the filaments and thicker glass can survive a bit of abuse)I have to say, armed with a dimmer switch, and in this crappy UK miserable dim and cold winter, the extra heat from incandescents is not going to waste. Of course I have gas central heating but that is pure CO2 compared to all that lovely clean green wind power that could be spent on a 100W pearl light instead of my gas boiler.ETA: Yes, the old bulbs were a great aid in my early days as a bench service engineer - a great way of testing a line output stage on a TV for example.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2016, 12:32:52 am
content: Quote from: Macbeth on January 13, 2016, 12:23:44 amThis is the key thing where the wider public and policy makers don't properly understand science. Bulbs in the UK get most of their use on dark winter days when the central heating is turned on. In that case the heat produced by the bulbs does not go to waste and they become electric heaters that reduce your gas bill a little. They effectively are 100% efficient under those circumstances.In the British summer the sun sets very late in the evening so there is little need for lighting at all. And the extra heat might be appreciated in the early mornings or late evenings anyway.The whole idea that incandescent bulbs are an environmental catastrophe is completely overstated.

author: Ian.M
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2016, 12:44:03 am
content: An easy replacement for the banned 100W bulbs are the 105W Halogen bulbs in ES cap for mainland EU or B22 cap for British Isles. Use anywhere a clear 100W bulb was acceptable

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2016, 12:44:41 am
content: I love my incandescent light bulbs, even at 4x of the prices.The soft yellow glow of those bulbs just warms your heart when you go home at night.The only downside I have is that I have to change them out in the summer to minimize cooling bills. Lots of bulbs to change.CFL bulbs have a long warm-up time so to avoid that I had to keep them on - defeating any energy savings they may have over the incandescent bulbs.

author: Macbeth
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2016, 01:11:38 am
content: The best thing with nice 100W bulbs other than the 95% perfect heat efficiency is how you can make perfectly brilliant photos and tear downs without all kinds of expensive studio gear!Also, I am sitting here with a shitty "60W" equivalent halogen. I am suffering from SAD (Seasonally Effective Disorder) - I don't have enough light to do my projects. Depression kicks in. I need a violin...I'm off to the 99p shop to find some fittings and 150W bulbs tomorrow. I can't handle this misery any more

author: Ian.M
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2016, 02:33:22 am
content: Has your local highstreet got a Ryness lighting shop? If so, I recommendhttps://www.ryness.co.uk/105w-clear-bc-halogen-gls-light-bulbYou'll also find similar in big DIY stores.150W bulbs are a PITA. You need an all brass/ceramic socket and a high temperature silicone ceiling drop cord with fibreglass sleeving over the wire ends or it burns up the wiring insulation (which can get a bit exciting).

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2016, 04:18:01 am
content: I have pretty much given up on CFLs.They may put out a lot of light over a broad spectrum,but within the passband of the human eye,a "90w equivalent" light is about as effective as a 25w incandescent.I tried an LED globe,which barely crept above candlelight levels.That is now doing sterling service in the Toilet (CFLs hated being turned on & off,& croaked).Most of our "lightbulbs" are now Halogens,which are a bit more efficient than an incandescent,& put out a similar amount of light in a usable part of the spectrum.They still are just as crap as the last generation of incandescents were when it comes to longevity.The last couple I installed lasted a month & four days,respectively.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2016, 04:46:09 am
content: Quote from: vk6zgo on January 13, 2016, 04:18:01 amCFLs are worthless, but do give the LED bulbs another try. As many have said the brand name ones put out lots of light, and at least so far, are extremely durable. Have to wait a few years to see if they are as good on longevity as claimed, but they far exceed incandescent and CFL. Most are also dimmable, and instant on/off so they check all the boxes except low initial cost.

author: kwass
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2016, 05:23:01 am
content: I replaced my incandescent and halogen, mostly, BR40 size bulbs with LEDs as they've burned out. I started this about 4 years ago and now have about 50 LED bulbs in use. None have failed and all produce light that is indistinguishable in intensity, color and pattern from the bulbs they replaced. They were pretty expensive to start with, $20 per bulb, but the price has come down a lot over time. However, electricity is expensive around here, $0.25/KWh, so it doens't take long to justify even paying $20 per bulb. Mostly I've used Feit and Philips BR40 LED bulbs, but I also have a bunch of Cree and Philips A19 sized bulbs. I'm happy with all of these.Not having to replace bulbs and seeing a noticeable drop in my electric bill has been most welcome.

author: MrSlack
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2016, 06:51:02 am
content: Changed all mine to philips master line LED lights last year. Because I have children who don't know how to turn off the lights, that's a 20% saving in electricity for me. £190 a year. Bulbs paid for already.I used the halogen ones in my kitchen lights but they only lasted about 3 months a go. Ended up with cheap LED ones from Amazon as Philips didn't do the form factor and they were as good as. It's like flood lighting now!I really don't want incandesant bulbs to come back regardless of efficiency or technology. Dead bulbs are a PITA and filaments will break.

author: TerraHertz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2016, 07:43:05 am
content: It's like everyone has forgotten fluorescent tube batten lighting exists.Apart from bathrooms and cupboards, where instant-on needs exclude everything but LEDs or filament bulbs, I don't know why anyone would use anything other than long twin-tube fluoro battens in work areas that need bright lighting.Most annoying place for a slow-start CCFL: a bathroom with the light and ventilation fan on the same switch plate. Switch light on, walk into dark room. An interminable age later the noise of the fan spinning up tells you that was the wrong switch. Go back and try again.

author: Srbel
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2016, 08:00:38 am
content: Even so, they will make them so they fail under 1.000 hours, as they do for 100 years now. Capitalist scum.

author: Srbel
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2016, 08:01:54 am
content: Quote from: Macbeth on January 13, 2016, 12:03:50 amAre you kidding me? So, there are no 99W bulbs for sale in EU? Or 100W "heaters" (bulbs)?

author: MrSlack
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2016, 08:46:44 am
content: You can get them on eBay if you need them. Also you can get 'natural light' ones from art shops which are pretty close and high wattage.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2016, 10:04:34 am
content: Quote from: TerraHertz on January 13, 2016, 07:43:05 amFor a moment,I thought you were being dainty about a "dunny",but you mean a real bathroom!That confused me as the switch on my "toilet" turns on both,or rather turned on the extractor,then wait for the CFL.CFLs died from being turned on & off a lot,too,which is why there is an LED in there now.There is no extractor in the bathroom.The nearly worn out single 40watt fluoro tube in the kitchen puts out much more light than any CFL I've ever seen.They last for ages,too,but they're not pretty!

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2016, 10:23:09 am
content: Quote from: IanB on January 13, 2016, 12:32:52 amBut it's both cheaper and more environmentally friendly to heat ones home with gas, than electricity, unless you have a heat pump. The tiny saving on ones gas bill is more than outweighed by the huge increase on the electricity bill.The only time when there's a valid argument for incandescent lighting/resistive heating is where most of the electricity is generated by hydroelectric power and wind, otherwise it's very wasteful.

author: MikeW
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2016, 11:06:13 am
content: Quote from: TerraHertz on January 13, 2016, 07:43:05 amThere are LED replacements for exactly this type of luminaire that are more efficient, with no maintenance and that last longer with equal light distribution, temperature and CRI. They are also much better at tolerating being dimmed for sensor based control. They don't need aging burn-in too. The light output does drop eventually but that can be corrected with the programming of the driver, they also won't pink like a fluorescent lamp, hum or striate.It will cost slightly more out of the gate but there will be a ROI for most people. There are a few situations where the cheaper initial cost of the fluorescent will probably outweigh it's drawbacks, but the number is shrinking as LED costs come down.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2016, 11:32:37 am
content: We have GU10 LED downlights - £4 each from Wickes and they work perfect, instant on, as bright as 35W halogen but using only 4W.The previous landlord installed crappy £1.50 GU10 bulbs - LED array ones, instead of these single-chip ones, and they all died within about 3 months. Mostly flickering on and off as LEDs failed intermittent o/c.

author: MrSlack
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2016, 01:06:59 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on January 13, 2016, 11:32:37 amThose crappy GU10 bulbs are a nuisance. Better than the Poundland ones though which my father bought:http://www.poundland.co.uk/v-tac-led-round-bulb-6w

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2016, 01:16:22 pm
content: There are some really decent LED bulbs around now, even some of the the ones in Poundland are OK. There isn't really any reason to use CFLs any more.There are plenty that are as bright as similar-sized incandescents.Check out BigClive's channel for plenty of LED bulb teardowns :https://www.youtube.com/user/bigclivedotcomThis one is particularly interesting as it has novel approaches to cooling and light distribution ( could be a bit of a dust magnet though) :I was browsing Aliexpress and ordered a few interesting-looking ones, inclusing what claims to be a 65W ES LED bulb - should be amusing!Probably the biggest remaining issue is compatibility with dimmers and automatic switches.

author: PedroDaGr8
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2016, 02:03:35 pm
content: This technology is NOT new. This was invented by GE back in the 90s, they were called HIR bulbs. They were most famous for their automotive uses where Toshiba took over produciton. It gave you about 2/3 the output of HID but with the color spectrum of Halogen. While these bulbs apparently do it BETTER but it isn't a novel idea. Just saw the GE still makes HIR bulbs for home use, Toshiba only took over the automotive use.The HIR bulbs had a special film which reflected the IR back on the filament giving the bulb much greater output. You can faintly see the translucence of the film in the above image.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2016, 02:14:59 pm
content: How long will theses new incandescent lights last for? And how much do they cost? If they don't last any longer than halogen lights and aren't much cheaper then LEDs, then there's not much point.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2016, 02:30:14 pm
content: And by the time they hit the market, how much further will LED lamps have progressed..?

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2016, 06:01:20 pm
content: Quote from: TerraHertz on January 13, 2016, 07:43:05 amI have many of these fixtures in my shops and other spots. I will keep replacing tubes in them as long as they are available (which is changing). But I will never replace a ballast when it gets noisy or stops working altogether. Which they all do sooner or later. They will be replaced with LED versions. The LED lights have already demonstrated comparable life, and potentially will be much better, and as others have noted, they work when it gets cold. I don't heat most of my shops and while it doesn't get that cold (always above freezing), many of the lights don't work until a significant warm up period, several minutes or more, has passed.I won't miss the flickers near the end of bulb life, the buzzing of a ballast that is signaling that it is getting tired, the constant hunt for an appropriate color temperature, or paying a disposal fee. Yeah, even in the profligate US I have to pay a fee to dispose of the 8 foot tubes. There is free recycling for the smaller, 4 foot consumer tubes.

author: Macbeth
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2016, 06:11:20 pm
content: Quote from: CatalinaWOW on January 13, 2016, 06:01:20 pmSnap them in half?

author: Mechanical Menace
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2016, 06:42:03 pm
content: Quote from: TerraHertz on January 13, 2016, 07:43:05 amI replaced all my fluorescent tube lighting with LED bulbs. For me a 10 watt LED seems just as bright as a 36 watt fluorescent tube*. Reducing power consumption by almost 3/4, instant on, and less annoying flicker are good reasons to choose LEDs over fluorescents.*Just in case it's relevant I don't see why people like the yellow of incandescents so avoid the LEDs that're meant to replicate that look.

author: rdl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2016, 06:59:56 pm
content: I consider the color of "daylight" LEDs and most fluorescents to be too garish for use in most parts of the home. However, it would be nice to have more of a choice. All the LED bulbs I've seen only seem to be offered in "warm white" (2500-2700K) or "daylight" (5000K or higher). I think something like 3200-3500K might be good for most living areas and 4100 to 4800K would be nice to have also.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2016, 07:01:59 pm
content: Quote from: TerraHertz on January 13, 2016, 07:43:05 amI replaced the tubes with LED tubes in all my fluorescents ages ago - quality does vary - got some really nice ones with aluminium extrusion body, and some real cheapo all-plastic ones that sag in the middle.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2016, 07:04:07 pm
content: Quote from: CatalinaWOW on January 13, 2016, 06:01:20 pmWhich of course is just going to mean people will smash & dump them, releasing the mercury.They go pretty well when thrown javelin-style at a brick wall...

author: chris_leyson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2016, 07:45:03 pm
content: I don't think anyone has mentioned the EMC implications, incandescent = no EMC, compact flurorescent and LED = EMC because of the electronic ballast or the switching down converter. The amount of conducted and radiated RF will of course vary depending on the topology of the ballast or switching converter. It's probably not a lot compared to all of the other equipment with switched mode PSUs.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2016, 07:49:36 pm
content: Quote from: chris_leyson on January 13, 2016, 07:45:03 pmI think you mean EMI, not EM Compatibility....I'm surprised that capacitive droppers aren't used more widely, especially as we're seeing a trend towards quite high LED string voltages - some of the bulb products are using 3-die LEDs.

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2016, 07:56:40 pm
content: Quote from: AcHmed99 on January 13, 2016, 01:03:31 pmSorry I'm going to display some trainspotter type knowledge (gleaned from an old Philips lighting book), The low temperature ones are Argon filled rather than Krypton filled. I have a nice bright 8 foot 125W one in the garage that's still running strong after 20 years (it gets cycled a lot too) which comes on at full brightness even when it's near freezing. I have one spare tube, but after that I guess I'll have upgrade to whatever lighting technology is popular at the time.Actually, in another 20+ years I probably won't need to bother!

author: ciccio
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2016, 08:18:09 pm
content: For stairway timed lighting in my condo I've been obliged to install halogens (the ones with an halogen bulb inside a larger standard incandescent bulb).I needed immediate turn-on even in cold climates (stairs are not heated), and CFL were unsuitable. (Obvious here incandescent are illegal).Their lifespan was horrible: less than 6 months (incandescent lasted two or more years).In my apartment I had to switch to CFLs, and I don't like them: their lifespan is casual: I remember when the first ones on the market were specified for X hours of life, and I usually got a 10th of this. Now they are specified for N switch-on, and sometimes I get a 10t of this...I used to open the socket to investigate the failure: it was always some cheap electronic component...I think that the electronics should be separated from the bulb: to illuminate the car park of the condo we have external fixtures by Philips, that use a replaceable fluorescent bulb driven by a circuit inside the fixture. One 18 W and two 9 W. I installed them more than 20 years ago, and they are still there (but now I cannot find them in Philips on-line catalog). Bulbs were replaced 2 or 3 times (I mean they lasted more than 6 years, about 10 hours (environ) on every single day).On the side of the building there are other two fixture using standard CFL. Lamps last not more than 2 years, some less than one. They are powered in parallel with the others...By having the electronics inside the fixture the cost of the bulb may be reduced, and a better engineered and performing electronics may be used (obviously the initial cost may be higher, but this is a one-off expense)

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2016, 01:25:08 am
content: Quote from: ciccio on January 13, 2016, 08:18:09 pmSounds like LEDs would be the deal answer there then (assuming the low current draw doesn't mess with the timer switch). I wonder if the electrolytics used in the PSUs have issues at very low temps.Just been browsing Aliexpress & seeing how ridiculously cheap white LEDs have become - 2000 for under $10, and many types around the 1-2 cents each mark at 1000xI can't see any fancy nano-tech competing anytime soon

author: chris_leyson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2016, 02:50:47 am
content: Thanks Mike, strictly speaking it should have been EMI not EMC but I was thinking of the "compatability" issues with analog radio.Transients on the mains seem to slowly kill off incandescent tungnsen filament light bulbs. A week or two later, after the transient, you've got to replace a few light bulbs. Maybe a hot spot on the filalment just got too hot for too long and that changes the metallurgy of the filialment and it turns into a fuse, I'm only guessing, but it seems plausable.If you could reflect all of the IR energy emitted by the filament back onto the filament and maybe eventually get 40% claimed efficiency, it's all down to how you manufacture the filament in the first place. A 40% efficient light bulb with a tungsten filament is still going to have the same life span as a conventional tungsten filament light bulb.

author: steve30
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2016, 09:07:42 am
content: Quote from: TerraHertz on January 13, 2016, 07:43:05 amI rather like high quality fluorescent tubes. Currently in my combined bedroom/lab, I'm using 2x 36W 4000k >90 CRI tubes to light the room (with a dimmable electronic ballast), and I have a couple of flat LED panels to light my desk (like what Dave has demonstrated). I also have a halogen desk lamp, and a nice 2700K LED module handy. That way I can configure the lighting depending on what I want at a particular time.In the loft and the garage, I have 2x 56W fluorescent tubes. Very nice. I'm surprised that so many people don't seem to like the glare-free nature of lamps like this.Of course I do use fillament lamps from time to time. Their simplicity can be quite useful.

author: SteveyG
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 14, 2016, 09:30:11 am
content: Quote from: MikeW on January 13, 2016, 11:06:13 amCan you show me any that are as good as a decent quality T5 tube? I'm yet to find anything that matches the high CRI, price and distribution of light

author: MikeW
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2016, 10:56:39 am
content: Quote from: SteveyG on January 14, 2016, 09:30:11 amThis may sound like a bit of a copout but I'm reluctant to say where I work (because then I can't complain about them!) and I wouldn't want to recommend a competitors product either.However I can show you a photometric comparison between a fluorescent batten and an LED replacement. Initially the fluorescent looks wider but note the scaling numbers on the graph and you will see the LED is actually superior. Also there is a lot of essentially wasted up-light with the fluorescent.The LEDs we use are capable of CRI 90 but normally we will sell at 84.http://www.lumileds.com/products/mid-power-leds/luxeon-3535lYou are correct about price. Most of the time a fluorescent batten will be cheaper than the LED equivalent, but will be more expensive to run. We work with major companies refitting huge premises and sites to LED alternatives, and ROI is achieved in sometimes as little as two years, although 4-5 is more normal. The larger the company then generally the quicker the return due to economy of scale.So for one dude looking to light his garage, fluorescents probably still are the better choice, much bigger than that and LEDs quickly become the superior option.

author: SteveyG
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 14, 2016, 11:28:02 am
content: Do you have something that compares a CAT 5 luminaire? I've tried a few LED replacements in my lab, but the T5HO 90CRI tubes are superior in all cases. The difference in energy consumption is minimal with HF control gear - You should get in excess of 5000lm from a 54W T5HO and measured output from some XM-L2s is about 1000lm at 3A, so around 10.5W.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2016, 12:06:50 pm
content: "I think that the electronics should be separated from the bulb: "Changing lighting fixture is far more expensive than changing light bulbs. That risk is amplified at time of changing and uncertain technology,like now. I for one don't think led lighting is mature enough, or perform well enough for me to replace my incandescent bulbs with year around.The warm and soft glow of incandescent bulbs is just a pleasure to look at, especially in the winter.

author: SteveyG
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 14, 2016, 12:10:35 pm
content: Quote from: dannyf on January 14, 2016, 12:06:50 pmAlso the idea of "LED Replacements" is just flawed anyway. Purpose designed LED luminaries are great - they have adequate heatsinking, separate control gear and the diffuser or reflector is designed for the job. There are very few well implemented LED replacements as they generally all have some serious compromises which either affect the form, lifetime or light distribution.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2016, 12:28:34 pm
content: I don't understand the fixation on "efficiency ": if you live in a colder part of the world, incandescent bulbs are 100 efficient in that it gives out either light or heat, things you need in a house anyway.If you are a radio liatener, the radio pollution from cfl or led bulbs is just too much to bear.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2016, 12:49:57 pm
content: Quote from: dannyf on January 14, 2016, 12:28:34 pmDon't know how it works in other countries but in the UK gas is three times cheaper than electricity per kWh. So from that point of view it makes sense to use efficient electrical light sources and rely on gas to heat the home, provided the efficient lights don't cost more over their lifetime than the electricity savings, of course.

author: Mechanical Menace
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2016, 02:07:41 pm
content: Quote from: dannyf on January 14, 2016, 12:28:34 pmHeating is for the weak. Put on a jumper. And TBH what use is heating the ceiling? I don't spend that much of my free time on the ceiling. And using electricity for heating is a massive waste of money.QuoteWhat's radio?Joking aside people who listen to radio are such a small niche now that's hardly a concern and the vast majority of that 0.5% of people who do listen to it use their DVB tuners or stream over the internet anyhows. At a push they may have a DAB radio.

author: ciccio
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2016, 02:48:55 pm
content: The cost of electricity and the cost of natural gas are fixed by political, not economical parameters.Taxes and incentives for renewables are higher than the cost of the energy, be it gas or electricity.If electricity could be produced by nuclear or hydroelectric or geothermal plants, and there were no added costs to finance inefficient wind turbines (like the ones I see here in Italy, which do not work because were installed in places where wind is very scarce, but were paid by my taxes) or (a little more efficient) photovoltaic cells, and the tax ratio is acceptable, then maybe it could be more economical to heat houses, especially in southern Europe, with electricity.It could even be safer: gas in a building is dangerous, a lot more than electricity, and there is the risk of carbon monoxide intoxication, which takes tens of lives every winter.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2016, 04:26:50 pm
content: Quote from: ciccio on January 14, 2016, 02:48:55 pmHere in the UK a lot of our electricity is generated with natural gas and if you're going to be using it to heat your home, it's much more efficient and environmentally friendly to just burn the gas.Carbon monoxide may be dangerous but so are nuclear reactors.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2016, 07:37:17 pm
content: Quote from: steve30 on January 14, 2016, 09:07:42 amI like it. I have recently refreshed the lighting in my garage with some T12 dual 40 W fittings and some warm white Philips tubes. The electronic ballast is instant on with no flicker, and I really like the soft, even illumination. I particularly like that I can look directly at the tubes without being blinded or getting spots in my eyes. The large surface area of the T12 tube with low surface intensity is very pleasant.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2016, 06:40:23 am
content: Quote from: dannyf on January 14, 2016, 12:28:34 pmBut a heat pump uses one third the power for the same amount of heat, even less if it's a particularly good one.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2016, 07:05:38 am
content: Quote from: NiHaoMike on January 15, 2016, 06:40:23 amNot just that, but only extreme climates use heating for much more than half the year. For the rest of the time the heat from a lamp is an unqualified waste even in cooler climates..

author: johnwa
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2016, 07:26:40 am
content: Quote from: NiHaoMike on January 15, 2016, 06:40:23 amAnd, just because an incandescent light globe is calorimetrically equivalent to other forms of heating, that does not necessarily make it aneffectiveform of heating. Even considering only resistive electric heating, a 100W electric blanket will keep you a good deal warmer than a 100W globe on the ceiling.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2016, 07:40:06 am
content: Quote from: johnwa on January 15, 2016, 07:26:40 amMost of us wouldn't really consider electric blankets as suitable home heating. However, incandescent lamps are heating the wrong part of the room. Warm air rises, and most lamps are close to the ceiling. They also tend to be near the centre of the room. Heating needs to be near the floor against an outside wall, to achieve the most even temperature around the room, and the lowest energy consumption for good comfort.