Who needs solder between alligator clips and the wire? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: jrmymllr
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2024, 03:04:39 pm
content: I bought these alligator clip leads from Digikey four years ago and have noticed occasional continuity problems. Well it's not hard to see why this is occurring.Was it wrong to assume everything from Digikey is reasonable quality? Digikey part number 1927-1085-ND if anyone wants to avoid, or buy and fix. I paid USD$2.22 for a 10 pack in 2020 so perhaps I shouldn't expect better.

author: ZenHombre
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: October 11, 2024, 05:28:56 pm
content: You didn't even crimp the wire, I don't see this as a legit issue. If you chose to crimp the sleeve, you should've soldered the wire.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2024, 05:37:00 pm
content: Was that from their alternative sourcing, called “Marketplace”?

author: electr_peter
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 11, 2024, 05:45:21 pm
content: Manufacturer knows that wire insulation would melt anyway so why try to solder it? Just throw it out and make something decent yourself.

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2024, 05:47:56 pm
content: Quote from: ZenHombre on October 11, 2024, 05:28:56 pmSomebody needs to go back to school and learn to read.Quote from: jrmymllr on October 11, 2024, 03:04:39 pmThe cables were bought this way, so the company who made them f.....d up the crimping.Further more if you just crimp the wire in an alligator clip like this it most likely won't last that long either. The crimp should be on the insulation as a strain relief and the wire should have been soldered to the clip.Edit: Damned, I have bought similar leads in sets of different sizes and I just checked them. No solder, just crimped on the sleeve with the wires bend in between the crimp. You don't see this because the alligator clip is protected with a plastic sleeve itself. Mine came fromAliexpress. "Where else"

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2024, 05:54:50 pm
content: In the race to the bottom for price, jumpers are made the chinese way - no proper crimp connection or solder. True garbage.After opening a bad of new ones, first thing is to solder the wires at the ends, which melts the insulation jacket and ... overall it's a shitty experience.I have some that the plastic turned to rock, the boots so hard I could not open the alligator clip and those joyfully went in the garbage.I've bought 10 different brands of jumpers and no real difference in quality. It's all sourced from china. Taiwan quality is better.The best quality jumper leads, and many test leads I know are made in Japan by Teishin ElectricT.SINDouble crimp at the ends, better plastics and wire etc. Even metrology gold ones.Radioshack used to sell them in the 70-80's that's how I know about them. A friend just brought some back from Japan.A smart person would import them and sell them outside their country.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2024, 05:59:11 pm
content: As much as I hate this style of “crimping”, that is extremely common. Mueller Electric, the company that lays claim to inventing the alligator clip, sells a crimp tool for its crimp-style alligator clips, and that is exactly how they say to use it. (See attached datasheet.) At least their clips have closed crimp barrels.The take-home message is that alligator clip jumpers really aren’t well suited for high-current or high-reliability applications.

author: jrmymllr
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2024, 06:31:29 pm
content: Quote from: TimFox on October 11, 2024, 05:37:00 pmNo actually. I avoid that.

author: jrmymllr
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2024, 06:40:28 pm
content: Quote from: ZenHombre on October 11, 2024, 06:25:11 pm"Years old"? Clip leads don't have an expiration date. Ones that are decades old are likely better quality anyway. I have a set I bought over 30 years ago that were crappy at the time and have held up better than the Digikey ones.

author: richnormand
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 11, 2024, 06:41:59 pm
content: Years ago I got 24 alligators wires like you have (sale at Radio Shack).They were assembled as you have shown.Over time I ended up soldering all 24 pairs due to bad contacts when pulling or moving the lead (wire isolation deteriorating or oxidation or not fully crimped I suppose).Also took the opportunity to weed out the badly assembled clips too when the teeth were not meshing wellThey are all doing fine now after about 25 years.Recently 3D printed holders for them.

author: jrmymllr
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2024, 07:42:17 pm
content: Quote from: electr_peter on October 11, 2024, 05:45:21 pmMost wire insulation melts with heat unless it's silicone.

author: Kim Christensen
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2024, 07:42:58 pm
content: Quote from: pcprogrammer on October 11, 2024, 05:47:56 pmMany of these type of clips have been made like this for the last 40 years. Rather than having a separate crimp for the insulation (strain relief) and another for the wire, they just fold over the bare end and crimp the whole thing. Not very reliable, but dirt cheap to make.

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2024, 07:52:59 pm
content: Quote from: pcprogrammer on October 11, 2024, 05:47:56 pmYou may want to also check the wires for voltage drop, mine had significant voltage drop even with just 100mA going through them. Could not use to feed power to my boards.

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2024, 08:21:33 pm
content: You have to buy jumpers anywhere but a chinese build. They have conquered all and won the race to the bottom. Congrats!Minimum copper gives the skinny conductors and high resistance.Minimum labour gives a single squish of the wire with "copper" and the alligator clip tabs oxidizing in a few weeks giving shit connections.Across the board, compared to decades ago, plastics were changed to meet RoHS. So they are stiffer and harden with age. Extra cheap plastics become rock hard with age.To fix all this, I tried buying chinese silicone wire but it was another joke of being composed of all insulation and very little copper.So I am very happy with my T.SIN jumpers, same as all my very old ones that are still working to this day. We should do a group buy.Jumpers are a tool that needs to just work, and not give bad connections.

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2024, 08:49:31 pm
content: Quote from: jrmymllr on October 11, 2024, 03:04:39 pmYes for 20c each you have to expect garbage.Digikey resells from a lot of small online vendors for some reason, in this case Kitronik Ltd. Who source a variety of parts, in this case presumably from some generic cheap chinese vendor.If you want good quality leads I would either buy Pomona (expensive), or buy some banana to banana leads and then get alligator adapters for the ends, OR DIY your own leads.Quote from: floobydust on October 11, 2024, 08:21:33 pmYou are not good at sourcing quality silicone wire then. This one was fine:https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005004583797315.htmland I'm sure there are plenty of other good sellers.But its normal for the insulation to be thicker, you can't have thin silicone insulation, its not going to be strong enough. Heres a photo from another seller:

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2024, 09:07:32 pm
content: Quote from: floobydust on October 11, 2024, 08:21:33 pmSilicone is one of the mechanically less robust insulation materials, so it is generally thicker than PVC insulation, never mind extra-thin insulations like mPPE or Teflon.When you buy wire, you select it by AWG or cross-sectional area above all else. Insulation thickness is not an indicator of high or low quality. The insulation thickness and material are separate characteristics you choose according to the application.I’ve had very good results with one brand of Chinese silicone wire. I can find the link for you if you want.

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2024, 09:40:45 pm
content: Ah the keyword is "double-ended", these (PVC wire) jumpers are insulation-crimped and soldered to the clip apparently.I guess I'm no good at spotting decent silicone wire vendors. Let me know the store you found OK.Wading through Aliexpress ads, I found the word "copper" {aka gold} is usually mentioned in a misleading manner and CCA wire is out there as well. Real wire will have safety agency approvals and labels like UL3135 or UL3239 compared to what villagers are making for RC car hobbyists. Some is fine strand, others are not. You have to be really careful with each ad.Insulation thickness is also the voltage rating, some is 600V others 3kV (which likely does not fit through the boot hole).I'll try again with some other (wire) stores but overall it was more hassle as a fix for jumpers that are junky. You can solder to the alligator clips without melting the (PVC) jacket, if you use flux and solder fast.

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2024, 11:32:22 pm
content: Why not link where you bought from?I don't care about UL rated cable, its for personal use. RC car stuff is not inherently bad, hobbyking is where I originally bought silicone wire from, and had zero issues with their quality:https://hobbyking.com/en_us/turnigy-pure-silicone-wire-12awg-1m-translucent-black.htmlEverything fine strand tinned copper wire, as advertised.If your going to the effort to fix some cheap PVC alligator clips I would consider decent ends:https://www.aliexpress.us/item/3256805833730082.htmlhttps://www.aliexpress.us/item/3256806082392265.htmlhttps://www.aliexpress.us/item/2251832618448529.html(premade)

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2024, 05:44:25 am
content: Quote from: Bud on October 11, 2024, 07:52:59 pmDepends on the AWG of the wire, but they do drop quite a bit of the voltage when used for powering things. I have three sizes of alligator clips and the smaller the clip the higher the AWG, the more voltage they drop. For powering the more beefy stuff I have thick banana plug based leads.

author: ArdWar
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2024, 05:56:11 am
content: You may also need to check whether there are actual copper in your wire. Especially with those cheaper than dirt aliexpress rainbow "dupont" jumpers. Connector pins that stick to magnet is almost universal these days, but often the wire also stick to magnet too, and I doubt that's due to nickel content...

author: Haenk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2024, 06:48:39 am
content: https://www.superbuy.com/en/page/search/?nTag=Home-search&from=search-input&keyword=fexible%20silicone%20cable%20copperDon't overpay at Aliexpress (which is OK for a one-time purchase though).

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2024, 10:17:17 am
content: Quote from: floobydust on October 11, 2024, 09:40:45 pmThe exact AliExpress store I ordered from (ATOPELEC) appears to be gone, but the store “ATOPELEC_ALI1” appears to have the same listings as I remember:https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005007484084185.htmlAssuming it is still the same as what I got, let’s just say that I’ve struggled to find silicone wire as nice as this from mainstream distributors. (The only one I theoretically prefer is Stäubli Silivolt-1V, whose insulation is extremely tough and elastic. Extremely difficult to strip, too! But it’s very hard to find, especially by the meter…) The only disappointment about it is that the purple, at least in the batches I’ve gotten, is more like a maroon color that is surprisingly easy to think of as a dark brown.Edit: and while I haven’t ordered from them yet, this modestly-named store has a really comprehensive selection of silicone wires and cables, and like ATOPELEC, actually provides specs:https://skygod.aliexpress.com/

author: mikerj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2024, 10:36:51 am
content: Quote from: Bud on October 11, 2024, 07:52:59 pmMany of these poor quality Chinese leads use copper coated iron wire, which has much higher resistance than copper. Try a magnet on the wire.

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2024, 06:20:00 pm
content: Pic of new TSIN TLA-2 jumpers from Japan. I looked at my old jumpers and I also have some made in Korea with circle-J logo and the double-crimp as well.I'd tried Adafruit, Cinch, Emerson, GC Electronics and not happy with them.Enough with this chinese junk I say. If it isn't the dodgy "crimp", it's the scrawny wire, it's the plastics. Hoorah you've won the race to the bottom!PomonaandCal-Testsell (fine strand ~0.07mm) silicone jacket copper wire about $1/ft. Boots will still be PVC.Neither company make jumpers and I think I'd emailed Pomona and gave them shit for not offering some quality.

author: Ian.M
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2024, 09:12:10 am
content: Even 20 years ago, most budget alligator clip leads were constructed with this horrible foldback crimp. The only way to make them reliable was to pry the crimp open slightly to get the wire out, tidy up the stripped end, then solder the wire to the clip and gently squeeze the crimp back down on the insulation.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2024, 12:42:10 pm
content: Quote from: floobydust on October 12, 2024, 06:20:00 pmFYI, I have tried both of these brands' silicone test lead wire. The Pomona is nice (not the finest stranding in existence, but very nice insulation), but not available in small sizes.The (now discontinued) 24AWG Cal-Test I tried is awful. It is silicone, but it's not at all good for test leads: it "takes a set" quite strongly (i.e. it has strong memory of bends, twists, and kinks) and is not limp like you want in a test lead. It is worse in this regard than the inexpensive Chinese silicone from my non-preferred supplier. The Chinese silicone from my preferred supplier is far, far better still.And to be clear, it is the insulation that has the strong memory, not the copper stranding within. Even the stripped insulation pieces can be bent.

author: jrmymllr
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2024, 04:52:28 pm
content: Quote from: floobydust on October 12, 2024, 06:20:00 pmOoh that's nice. How did you get these? Google is of no help if there's anywhere in NA that sells them.

author: Kim Christensen
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2024, 06:54:12 pm
content: Quote from: jrmymllr on October 13, 2024, 04:52:28 pmMaybe these guys?

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2024, 08:08:47 pm
content: Quote from: jrmymllr on October 13, 2024, 04:52:28 pmI begged an engineer friend travelling to Osaka to get me some. Near his hotelKyohritsu Electronic Industry Co., Ltdis the parent company.There are electronics hobbyist stores (buildings) there everything from 300B's and audiophile stuff, to surplus components and maker stuff. All top quality and drool over the test leads and clips china can never achieve. Really wish that kind of store could exist in North America, without the crazy markup as the pdf shows.Imagine test clips that simply work and make a good connection.Japanese manufacturers are terrible at selling their stuff outside of the country. An antique honour system and really they are only about their local market it seems.

author: jrmymllr
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2024, 12:08:34 pm
content: Quote from: floobydust on October 14, 2024, 08:08:47 pm

author: MarginallyStable
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2024, 05:53:05 pm
content: My work gave us an emergency roadside kit that came with jumper cables that had a fold-over crimp like this.Apparently at least one person used them and ended up with severe burns on their hands. My work instructed everyone to throw the cables away and gave us some coupon as a replacement....I still have the cables around somewhere.

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2024, 07:41:37 pm
content: Quote from: MarginallyStable on October 15, 2024, 05:53:05 pmJust yesterday and today I had to use my jumper cables to help start the van of the people that are installing the new heat pump. Yesterday no problems and the van started after a little bit of charging its battery. Today it did not do anything, so I brought out the trusted multi meter and it showed a lower voltage on the van battery than on mine, so indeed connection problems. Measured the resistance of the cables. The red one was fine <1 Ohm, but the black one had no connectivity until I jiggled one end a bit. Finally got the van going again, and told them to visit a garage to replace the battery. Don't want to jump start it again tomorrow.The moral of the story, yes the same type of crimping on the big alligator clips, and a bad connection on the copper strand. The clip is steel, but the cable is non magnetic, so either real copper or copper cladded aluminum.Problem with these clips is that you can't solder to them, at least not easily. I removed the cable from the clip and had to pry the strands out of the insulation. Stripped a larger section and crimped the clip back on. Hopefully it will work again when needed.

author: mikerj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 06, 2024, 01:34:34 pm
content: Matthias just made a video about crappy alligator clip test leads:

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 06, 2024, 02:09:08 pm
content: Back in the day, some higher quality alligator clips from Australia, the UK & USA had a threaded hole formed in the clip body to connect the conductor, & only the insulator was clamped.Ideally, a lug would be soldered to the conductor, but many were the connections which just tinned it, bent it into a semi-circle & tightened the screw down on it.Even such a "bodge" was more reliable than just hoping that folding it over & crimping it with the insulation would be adequate.

author: jrmymllr
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 08, 2024, 10:41:16 pm
content: Quote from: mikerj on November 06, 2024, 01:34:34 pmThat was super helpful. I can report the cheap Digikey clip lead wires are not iron. So I only need to do soldering and not replace the wires.

author: Kean
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 09, 2024, 03:16:55 am
content: Quote from: jrmymllr on November 08, 2024, 10:41:16 pmIt depends on your use case. For simple hobby/educational circuits they are probably fine even with the CCS wire.But you might experience a noticeable voltage drop with the super fine gauge copper wire they will use to save money, even at what most would consider low current.I do prefer to make my own test leads, usually with silicone insulated wire. It doesn't take too much time, and can save lots of frustration later.

author: jrmymllr
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 09, 2024, 11:56:35 pm
content: Quote from: Kean on November 09, 2024, 03:16:55 amWhile in the process of disassembling these so I can solder the wire to the clip, I discovered they are CCA. Nope. I'm replacing the wire and never buying cheapo clip leads again.

author: 5U4GB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2024, 11:48:36 am
content: Anyone know what theJaycar test leadsare? Yeah, I know, Jaycar, but I can pick a set up tomorrow vs. waiting to get silicone wire in and then crimping/soldering it up.I also had a look at element14 and even theirMulticomp house brand leadsstart at $5-6 apiece, and that's before you get into the name-brand stuff like Pomona which is several times that. However as with the Aliexpress ones none of the data sheets make a point of specifying that the cable is copper.

author: Kean
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 10, 2024, 12:48:49 pm
content: Quote from: 5U4GB on November 10, 2024, 11:48:36 amI cannot vouch for latest stock, but I have some Jaycar ones I bought 5+ years ago and they are not CCS (non magnetic). I am pretty sure they are real copper, and the 3A rating is a good sign. But they are not particularly well terminated, with just the folded over wires crimped between insulation and metal alligator clip. And that has tripped me up with them more than once, but apparently I haven't gone through and fixed them all... yet...I ran a magnet over a few bunches of cables that came from AliExpress, and the only ones that registered are some short "Dupont" jumper leads.I did throw away a bunch of cheap banana to alligator leads, as they had significant voltage drop. I cannot recall if they were CCS or CCA, but the strands were few and very thin.

author: 5U4GB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2024, 01:17:43 am
content: Thanks! I wrote to Cleqee, mentioned inthis post, about their use of CCS but haven't had a reply yet. Everything else I've got from them has been fine so I'm assuming a supply-chain problem rather than systematic use of CCS.For people complaining about Chinese-made junk, some years ago an acquaintance of mine was working with an organisation that used stupidly expensive hardware made in the USA and certified to strict USG standards. It got to the point where they had to open the units up and inspect each one to verify that they had actually been made to the standard they'd been certified to. So it doesn't just happen with Chinese products, you can get caught anywhere, any time.

author: 5U4GB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2024, 03:10:32 pm
content: Cleqee replied to say they'd provide feedback to the factory, not sure what that'll entail in practice but at least they acknowledged the issue.

author: 5U4GB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2024, 07:27:43 am
content: Quote from: Kean on November 10, 2024, 12:48:49 pmI can vouch for the latest stock:It's definitely CCS (the shiny cylinder hanging off the cables is a fridge-magnety-thing). Looks like Jaycar got scammed as well.Which means anyone else who has hookup cables, no matter what the source, from the last five years or so may want to run a magnet over them...

author: 5U4GB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2024, 03:42:04 am
content: And by happy coincidence:Be interesting to see if they read their feedback and respond.

author: Doctorandus_P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2024, 04:38:51 pm
content: I have bought wires made like this over 30 years ago, so it's nothing new. And indeed quality was quite crappy. Even back then the amount of copper in them varied a lot. From ridiculously thin to reasonable. But at least the wire was copper back then.I opened up the crimped part, soldered the wire to the clamp and then put the insulated piece back in the crimped part for mechanical endurance.Another issue is the sleeves over the crocodile clamps hardening up to the point the clamps can't even be opened anymore.

author: OriginalDan
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 22, 2024, 07:01:50 am
content: so it seems 2.54 pin headers are effected... i bought a bunch of pi picos recently and some spare pinheaders i had from other pi products the yellow colour ones aren't magnetic but a generic bulk lot i got from ali are, problem is i already soldered about 10 of em down half being the cheaper ali stuffis that gonna cause problems down the road?

author: Kean
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 22, 2024, 11:22:23 am
content: Quote from: OriginalDan on November 22, 2024, 07:01:50 amThe most noticeable effect is going to be lower current carrying capacity. If you are only using these wires for digital signals or low power devices, it isn't likely to be an issue.With the croc clips, they are often used to hook up higher power devices - so their use of CCA/CCS, very thin wire strands, and poor crimping, are more likely to mess up your circuits due to wires overheating, significant voltage drop, or intermittent connections.

author: 5U4GB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2024, 07:48:39 am
content: Quote from: 5U4GB on November 18, 2024, 03:42:04 amWell it's now been three weeks and not a peep from Jaycar. You wonder why they ask for feedback if they don't read it.

author: garrettm
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 15, 2024, 10:12:49 pm
content: I've encountered generally four different mating methods:1) a brass ferrule is crimped on the stripped wire and then the ferrule is crimped to the barrel of the alligator clip2) the stripped wire is wrapped around a mounting screw on the underside of the alligator clip3) the stripped wire is soldered to the clip inside the little opening on the underside near the screw hole4) the stripped wire is bent parallel to the jacket and that whole length is crimped to the barrel of the alligator clip (which is what you have)Pomona and Mueller Electronics used method 1, but they have both gone down in quality immensely over the years.Most older clips used method 2.Anyways, if you want something done "right" you have to do it yourself. It's actually pretty easy to fix these clips: Just pull the wire out and then restrip and solder the wire to the clip using the slot on the underside. I also crimp the jacket to the barrel and add a spacer if the jacket is a little too small to crimp properly. This prevents rotation of the wire inside the barrel.The brass ferrules are low resistance, but fail if the jacket is too short to fit properly inside the barrel--causing the strands to snap off near the ferrule. The soldering method works fine though, as the jacket has plenty of room in the barrel to prevent the strands from flexing too much and the soldered strands are far enough away from the part that flexes. The screw method is similar and works well, but adds bulk to the clip and doesn't look as nice.Whoever complained about soldering melting the wire jacket has never made a clip using that method. Yes, a tiny and insignificant amount of jacket may melt, but the part that is near the end of the barrel is fine and so it doesn't matter. If you pre-tin the wire and use good flux with a high heat soldering iron, the solder joint can be made fast enough that the jacket near the joint is negligibly impacted.