UK Consumer products and safety regulations. - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / projects

author: PICmonster
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2015, 12:32:13 pm
content: Dear AllI am looking at designing a simple bubble tube that is LED lit for the UK consumer market. I have a question about electrical safety regulations that would maybe applicable to this product in the UK.The product will consist of :An off the shelf 12V AC 5W CE rated mains adapterAn off the shelf 12V AC 2W CE rated air pumpEither custom or off the shelf low voltage electronics drawing <500 mA total current, essentially LEDsAm I wrong in thinking that I need no safety approvals as this product will consist off the shelf consumer products that can be purchased locally or online by anyone.I would like to know whom has the burden of safety responsibility for the product since it is made up of off the shelf CE rated and approved products for use in the UK already.The off the shelf products would not be pushed beyond the recommendations from the manufacturer and I would seek written approvals from them for use in my product also.I am aware the not everything purchase with CE marks are genuine, I am aware of other compliance such as EMC but I am asking specifically about electrical safety from the aspect of protecting myself from litigation and the consumer from harm.RegardsJim

author: AndyC_772
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2015, 12:47:26 pm
content: Quote from: PICmonster on June 26, 2015, 12:32:13 pmYes, I'm afraid you are wrong. You're building a finished system out of parts which you've selected for the purpose, and have connected together in the way you see fit. The burden of responsibility for safety is absolutely 100% with you.That said, you might quite reasonably assert that you're using CE marked products in accordance with their manufacturers' ratings, and if you believe that means your complete system is compliant with all applicable directives, then you may CE mark the finished system yourself. The component manufacturers' individual CE declarations (certificates of conformity) go into the Technical File that you're required to maintain. Bear in mind that, depending on what it does, your finished system might fall within the scope of standards that don't apply to the components individually.In the event of a claim against you, then the fact that you've used CE marked parts would be a reasonable defence, and you might well be able to draw the component manufacturer into any litigation against you as a co-defendent. You shouldn't end up in jail if you've shown you made reasonable efforts to ensure your product was compliant.You should, however, consider having product liability insurance, because there's no guarantee that you'll be able to successfully recover the costs of any claim from a component manufacturer.

author: PICmonster
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2015, 01:13:57 pm
content: Hi DagoThanks for your reply, lets consider its a bubble tube and it is powered by 12V AC 5W wall wart so quite safe with respect to electrocution.Worst case scenario is if the wall warts electrical isolation should fail making live the product then do you think it would be fair and just to blame me as the product manufacturer if I have take the measures to make the product as safe as possible, that is approval from the wall warts manufacturer for use in my application.This wall wart is a CE approved safety critical part, people could die if the insulation fails, we have to have a degree of confidence that the CE mark means that it is safe or a least I have done all that I can do to make sure it is safe.Have the manufactures of this wall wart not paid thousands in safety testing by the relevant safety bodies and that part has been approved for the consumer market, the burden should be on the safety body maybe for approving a part that has fail and maybe not tested properly to begin with?

author: KJDS
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2015, 01:53:24 pm
content: The burden is on you. If your product hurts someone, or burns down their house, it is down to you. If you've paid enough product liability insurance, then your insurance company will cover the financial aspect, however if they find that you've taken unreasonable steps they may still be chasing you to your grave to recover their losses.

author: PICmonster
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2015, 02:21:02 pm
content: In this unlikely scenario the CE Rated wall wart mains adapter fails and make the appliance live long enough to cause injury (unlikely but for illustration), the manufacturer of the mains adapter has approved it for use with my product so I should be in the clear, my product is low voltage and can not harm anyone but the mains adapter fails causing injury who is to blame for any injury?The product I am talking about is as benign as an Arduino, similarly the 5V wall wart to the Arduino fails causing a component to fly off and cause injury, very unlikely but just for illustration, now is Arduino liable for that injury, I would say no, it is caused by the wall wart failure the same as in my scenario.

author: Fred27
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 26, 2015, 02:39:09 pm
content: The answer is not what you wanted to hear. It won't change just because you keep asking the question again.

author: AndyC_772
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2015, 02:54:36 pm
content: It sounds as though you are sure that your product will comply with all the applicable EU Directives that apply to it. In that case, you should apply the CE mark to the finished item, keep a complete Technical File, and sell your product with confidence.At the end of the day, that's all anyone can do; having a test report doesn't transfer liability to the test lab, but it does strengthen your case in the event that your product is accused of being unsafe or non-compliant.Please be aware that if your product does present a safety hazard, then you are responsible. If you're convinced that it's safe, you shouldn't have any problem accepting that responsibility.

author: Neilm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2015, 04:31:08 pm
content: One question - what happens if (when) someone replaces your supplied wall wart with a cheap knockoff and gets a shock / killed? Technical files I have prepared (generally to IEC61010) include single fault analysis. Do you have a copy of the relevant safety standard?

author: MikeW
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2015, 11:01:52 am
content: CE + CE != CE

author: bitwelder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2015, 11:23:23 am
content: As I remember about the CE regulation, the importer of a CE-labeled product coming from outside EU is the legally responsible person in EU.Does that also apply if the importer is not selling the product as is, but using it (without modifications) as part of a larger product?

author: MikeW
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2015, 11:37:12 am
content: Quote from: bitwelder on June 27, 2015, 11:23:23 amYes. By using it in a larger product you have modified it and it is whoever is selling it in the eu that is responsible for ensuring it complies with the relevant standards

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2015, 04:26:37 pm
content: Quote from: MikeW on June 27, 2015, 11:01:52 amEspecially if the second "CE" is avery slightly differentfont and, when challenged, the supplier simply says it means "China Export".And that's quite apart from the absolute forgeries, and things that claim to be ISO9000-compliant. Hint: the latter merely means defined procedures were followed, not that it is safe/guaranteed!

author: PICmonster
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 28, 2015, 10:35:42 am
content: One has to keep an open mind whilst gathering the information required, I neither accept or ignore any comments just hoping this will lead where I can find the actual facts eventually, just because someone has an opinion does not make it true or indeed false, I want to get to the truth that is my quest.If all the forum members agreed then it is most likely true but they don't, its is a mixed bag as expected but it has been helpful, alas I still do not know the facts at this time but a better idea where to find them.This must be a grey area as there is difference of opinion in the forum, some people have negative comments without any reasons put forward to by them to backup their comments.As an example of this, do the genuine manufacturers of Arduino for example have to have Product Liability Insurance? this is a low Voltage low Power product so quite safe, my product is the same and can do no more harm than an Arduino as it is Low Voltage Low current powered by a CE approved wall wart like an Arduino can use.If Arduino has to have product liability insurance for example I want to know WHY that is technically as I wish to understand WHY?, Attaching the Arduino to a set of LEDs changes it spec? and thus this has to have new certification?CE+CE !=CEThis is money making on a grand scheme by the certification bodies is it not? Where has the common sense gone people?

author: Neilm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 28, 2015, 01:52:40 pm
content: Quote from: PICmonster on June 28, 2015, 10:35:42 amThe technical file does not have to be produced by a certified body - self certification is allowed. It is the reason that some people don't think much of the CE mark.I don't have an Arduino, but you will probably find a statement along the line of "only use the supplied power supply". If you don't and are shocked, there is the getout statement.

author: MikeW
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 28, 2015, 02:00:55 pm
content: Quote from: PICmonster on June 28, 2015, 10:35:42 amWhere is the difference of opinion? Everyone is telling you it is your responsibility.Tell you what, when I get into work tomorrow (where part of my job is ensuring luminaires are bsi compliant) I'll try and find some documentation covering how the CE system works.

author: dmills
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 28, 2015, 02:28:26 pm
content: Note also that the product safety standard for a wall wart may be quite different from the product safety standard for a light...And no, bolting together a pile pile of CE marked subassemblies does NOT automatically result in a CE marked product (let alone a safe one), but it can significantly reduce the amount of pain involved in doing the work to decide you are happy to sign the declaration of conformity.Ultimately you are bringing a product to market, so you are responsible for its safety, the CE marks on the components might give you (and your insurers) comfort that you do not need to dig into those parts too closely, but it is your product and thus your risk.Now what using a wall wart does buy you is a massive restriction in the scope of the system that needs to be looked at for LVD compliance, providing the wall wart provides sufficient isolation, the rest of the system can be treated as SELV in all probability (You still need to consider short circuits, surface temperatures (Both in normal operation and under fault conditions), the possibilities of a tube of warm water with bubbles (forming aerosols) as a source of legionella...., the list goes on).CE is easy, product safety is a much harder problem.Regards, Dan.

author: PICmonster
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2015, 08:27:36 am
content: Thanks to everyone who has contributedGetting quotations for Product Liability Insurance, any recommended insurance companies?

author: KJDS
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2015, 09:47:57 am
content: Chaunce O'Hara are as used as most.I've never had to make a claim, and I don't know anyone else who's had to make a claim, so I don't know just how good they are.

author: AndyC_772
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2015, 10:02:38 am
content: I've had competitive quotes from Markel, though I'd never "recommend" any insurance company without having first had to make a claim.