Capxon reputation and demonetization - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / projects

author: DutchGert
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 16, 2018, 10:15:47 am
content: So, yesterday I was at the Electronica 2018 fair in Munich and my biggest supprise was: a nice and professional looking Capxon stand.. The name alone got my attention (mostely because of Dave's constantly CrapXon remarks) but to my supprise they have some pretty decent AEC-Q grade parts and some real nice stuff (150 deg C polymer) comming up next year.So I talked to one of the German sales/technical reps and we had a very good chat. He told me CapXon is really trying to get more foot in the European market (they are Taiwanese btw, not Chinese like everyone says) and they got a fully Automotive qualified production line.So I started to hint on there bad reputation and he actually told me that that primairly comes form the fact that in the past a lot of chinese design houses used to put in 85 deg C/1000hours rated caps in pc switched mode supplies so yeah, what do you expect….Seems to me that is more about bad engineering than the caps being bad.All and all I had a nice chat and actually started feeling a bit sorry for them.So I now CrapXon is catchy and its nice to talk crap about "some hung low chinese" company (they are Taiwanese..) but maybe we should cut them some slack and give them a chance?(ps. no, i dont own any stock or represent them)

author: hans
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 16, 2018, 10:44:37 am
content: I think there is no such thing as "crap parts" as such. It's just that there are different skews of parts designed for different applications and stress scenarios.Problems can come when:- A manufacturer of parts is too optimistic in measuring and characterizing their parts. You want to compare apples with apples when browsing through datasheets, so hurting this trust is not taken lightly.- Engineering mistakes like you mentioned.I've absolutely got no clue what the actual quality is of those parts. I think the general rule of thumb "you get what you pay for" holds universally though.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 16, 2018, 11:05:27 am
content: Quote from: DutchGert on November 16, 2018, 10:15:47 amThat's a complete bullshit. Their bad reputation comes mostly from GF, KF and GL LOW ESR series. General purpose series they've sold are OKish AFAIK.

author: Ice-Tea
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 16, 2018, 11:09:09 am
content: AFAIK, capxon caps were affected in the capacitor plagues of over a decade ago. Their reputation sticked with them.

author: chris_leyson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 16, 2018, 11:16:45 am
content: QuoteMust admit, I tend to agree with hans and DutchGert. Perhaps a lot of designers are under pressure to keep costs down as much as possible so they will use cheaper 85 deg C parts instead of 105 deg C parts and 1000h parts instead of 3000h parts. Also, they might run the parts at close to maximum ripple current, smaller case size, lower ripple current, cheaper part etc.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 16, 2018, 11:51:20 am
content: Quote from: chris_leyson on November 16, 2018, 11:16:45 amGeneral purpose 105oC caps are barely more expensive if at all. And I've never seen 85oC caps in any modern PSU except big high voltage cap. Also please comment about caps on the picture which were never soldered. Not to say I've seen tons of failed LOW ESR Capxon but don't remember any general purpose ones. Even if I've seen any of those faulty, their number was very small.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 16, 2018, 11:56:30 am
content: More LOW ESR capxon.

author: GreyWoolfe
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 16, 2018, 12:49:44 pm
content: Quote from: Ice-Tea on November 16, 2018, 11:09:09 amThat was a horrible time. 11 field technicians had to swap out 2500 DELL system boards on DELL OptiPlex computers. DELL actually paid my company to do the replacements and extended the extended warranty my company bought. The same caps also showed up in DELL 15 LCD monitors and were failing after warranty. At least they were easy to replace and get the monitors back in service. I used Panasonic caps and had no further issues with the monitors I repaired. It really doesn't matter to me where they are at now. I wouldn't use them in anything.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 16, 2018, 01:03:04 pm
content: Quote from: GreyWoolfe on November 16, 2018, 12:49:44 pmThere is an argument that a company that has had problems in the past may take more care in future than one that hasn't.You learn more from failure than success."That guy's mistake cost the company $100K, why didn't you fire him ?""Why would I do that, I just spent $100K on training!"

author: 001
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 16, 2018, 01:04:59 pm
content: HuhCapXon WAS popular in millenium timeWho is new cheapest and crappiest champion?What about Jamicon Hitano etc?

author: Conrad Hoffman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 16, 2018, 02:58:55 pm
content: I notice that some of those caps are 6.3 volt rated. Low voltage electrolytics have inherently high dissipation factor and shorter life. Don't know why, but I've seen reliability data going back decades from Sprague and you can also see the dissipation on any catalog page from any manufacturer. I would never use a 6.3 volt rated cap in any critical location and never for switching supplies, regardless of the recommended applications. In both my test equipment and audio equipment I repair, it's the low voltage caps that fail first. All that said, I've no experience with the Capxon brand.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 16, 2018, 03:03:52 pm
content: Quote from: Conrad Hoffman on November 16, 2018, 02:58:55 pm10V, 16V, 25V capxons of the series I mentioned died like cockroaches. 6.3V caps were obvious choice for low voltage rails like CPU Vcore which is <1.5V. Although in last years polymer caps took the market for such use.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 16, 2018, 03:19:09 pm
content: Is it possible extremely low voltage parts are more prone to failure because bad designers are more tempted to not provide adequate margin i.e. use 6.3V parts for a 5V supply rail?

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 16, 2018, 03:32:03 pm
content: Quote from: Hero999 on November 16, 2018, 03:19:09 pm6.3V electrolytic caps work at 5V just fine given that ripple current adequate. As of those crapxons, they failed even if not stressed at all. There was a lot of bad low ESR capacitors in 2000's. Capxon is notorious because their capacitors were used in a lot of not that cheap equipment from a lot of popular brands.

author: chris_leyson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 16, 2018, 04:00:01 pm
content: QuoteThe guys I work for use hundreds of thousands of Jamicon cap every year, if one had failed then quality control would know about it. I don't have an issue with Jamicon caps.

author: strawberry
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 16, 2018, 04:05:53 pm
content: '' VENT '' it is intended to be like thatwrong formula of water based electrolyte

author: 001
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 16, 2018, 05:21:08 pm
content: Quote from: strawberry on November 16, 2018, 04:05:53 pmWHY?Is it winterproof?

author: Ice-Tea
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 16, 2018, 05:51:33 pm
content: Quote from: Hero999 on November 16, 2018, 03:19:09 pmThat's *exactly* why 6V3 caps exist: 5V rail +/- 5% accuracy = 5V25 + 20% derating is 6V3. This is by design.

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 16, 2018, 10:04:31 pm
content: I have a number of devices with CapXon inside them, without failures.Crap in, crap out. There are plenty of other "affordable" cap manufacturers whose products get abused in this way. There are "reputable" brands misused, too.More to the point, it always seems to be the cheap junk that has caps dying (anomalous failures notwithstanding). Or, even the good stuff, but having some unreasonable expectation that it should last 10,000 hours when it was designed for 2,000.Tim

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 16, 2018, 10:50:15 pm
content: Quote from: T3sl4co1l on November 16, 2018, 10:04:31 pmThis is about crappy caps, not ratings. Good quality capacitors with similar ratings (ripple current, lifetime) placed instead of crappy capxons which failed after 2 years are working a decade later without an issue. Low ESR Capxons newer than around 2010-2012 probably are more or less fine. General purpose capxons usually were good enough for consumer equipment. Some reputable brands made their share of crap as well. Nichicon HN/HM which were failing on Dell motherboards after a year (fixed later) or Chemi-con KZG/KZJ.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 16, 2018, 11:10:55 pm
content: Quote from: Ice-Tea on November 16, 2018, 05:51:33 pmI was under the impression that ideally a greater de-rating factor than 25% should be used, when selecting capacitors: >50% or more being ideal.Come to think of it, perhaps I'm over cautious? The above rule is more important with tantalum capacitors which do need to be generously de-rated. Aluminium capacitors should be fine pushed closer to their maximum ratings.

author: janoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 17, 2018, 12:14:56 am
content: Quote from: wraper on November 16, 2018, 11:51:20 amThat's actually interesting - you mean that these have failed (bulged, leaked, etc) even when not used, only because they were stored?How did that happen? I have never seen an unused cap fail like this. Were they heated from some ambient source?And yeah, Capxon has terrible reputation. I have also replaced a fair share of their caps. Their newer products could be well much better but who is going to risk that? I wouldn't want to be their sales/marketing guy having to fight such an uphill battle.

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 17, 2018, 04:48:42 am
content: Quote from: wraper on November 16, 2018, 10:50:15 pmMissing the point. The point is thedesignis bad. It will fail, prematurely or around warranty, as the case may be, regardless of the make of capacitor used.It's more likely that such designs will use a lower quality manufacturer -- no sense in throwing money after something that doesn't need it -- but every so often, the better brands win a design-in, and the same result occurs even on the well-reputed brand.Or to put it another way: correlation does not imply causation.Tim

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 17, 2018, 10:35:02 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on November 17, 2018, 04:37:44 amDid you run them for 2 years? The story is they seem to perform fine in accelerated tests but fail after a few years of normal use. Brand new capacitors bulging on the picture is a proof for this. Also only particular series were affected. For example Samwha WB failed in a few years but Samwha WL were quite reliable. Jamicon generally are good capacitors but about a month ago I threw out some MZ series caps because most of them bulged after sitting in a box for a few years.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 17, 2018, 11:45:43 am
content: Quote from: T3sl4co1l on November 17, 2018, 04:48:42 amDid you actually read what I wrote? That devices still work after a decade passed since capacitor replacement.

author: Ice-Tea
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 17, 2018, 01:37:45 pm
content: Quote from: Hero999 on November 16, 2018, 11:10:55 pmDepends. If you want to make stuff that will last untill kingdom come, derating more is obviously a good idea. Not because its needed but because whatever margin you add may buy you a bit more time somewhere. But in high volume customer electronics, this is common. Same with 6V3 ceramics: they exist for the express purpose to be able to put them on 5V rails.Obviously not something you want to do if there's a fair chance of transients. But well regulated DC/DC? Why not...

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 17, 2018, 04:14:47 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on November 17, 2018, 11:45:43 amReplaced with what? Guessing you chose something rather more robust (and expensive, were it used in original design). Cap spec is part of the design!Ed:Quote from: wraper on November 16, 2018, 10:50:15 pmHighlighted keywords -- if this is the case, clearly one of them is rated incorrectly (or, perhaps rated as worst-case rather than average-case lifetime?). I haven't seen the stats from each manufacturer, if this is the case (there is unfortunately very little that manufacturers make public about their inner process and quality..). There's also weasel words, like reading your example overly strictly: i.e., just matching ripple current and lifetime, not alsoimpedanceandtemperature. In which case, it's likely not even your fault, as it's hit-and-miss whether they give impedance spec at all. :/So, I'm probably just being a dick, or it's manufacturers not giving out enough information to adequately specify their parts.Tim

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 17, 2018, 04:37:32 pm
content: Quote from: T3sl4co1l on November 17, 2018, 04:14:47 pmIn PC monitors usually Samwha WL, Samxon GT or Jamicon WL. (Samwha WB and Samxon GF were affected as well)QuoteHave you ever heard aboutcapacitor plague? The fact a lot of crappy capacitors were made is the reason a website like badcaps exists.For example crappy Capxon GF, KF, GLhttp://www.amelec.ch/tl_files/amelec/downloads/capxon/gf.pdfare rated for 5000 hours with 10+mm diameter.Actually there were like 2 waves of this crap. First in early 2000's there were crappy motherboard caps made by evercon(GSC) and some others. Then followed in mid 2000's by tons of dying PSUs, monitors, TVs and other equipment with much wider list of different capacitors failing.

author: Conrad Hoffman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 17, 2018, 04:48:22 pm
content: There was a time when far more technical data was available from manufacturers. In hindsight, maybe they gave away some competitive advantage by saying too much. Anyway, pay particular attention to TP-64-11 and 62-4 here-http://www.conradhoffman.com/lib_item_list.htmThough quite old, the technology hasn't changed all that much for standard electrolytics. It's interesting that they note the shortened life of low voltage parts. IMO, those parts exist entirely for reasons of physical size, and we've made some good strides in that area. I always replace old low voltage parts with 16 volts or more, as the sizes are often the same. In some cases the modern parts are even smaller.

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 17, 2018, 06:08:11 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on November 17, 2018, 04:37:32 pmTwo different things -- if they don't meet mfg spec, that's their fault. That's why "capacitor plague" was a thing (and probably will be again, alas), not /just/ a symptom of short-life design.If the design of a product doesn't meet your expectation, that's your fault (caveat emptor)*.(*As shitty as that is, but that's how it is. Notwithstanding consumer protection laws, where applicable, which helps!)Tim

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 17, 2018, 07:11:17 pm
content: Quote from: T3sl4co1l on November 17, 2018, 06:08:11 pmIf will happen, likely with different parts. It was everyone jumping on LOW ESR bandwagon with water based electrolyte without proper development and long term testing.

author: Conrad Hoffman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 17, 2018, 07:31:13 pm
content: Note that the water problem was talked about in the papers I referenced. A mere 50 years ago!

author: Costas07
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: January 06, 2024, 10:44:37 pm
content: Just checked my supply of capacitors for CapXon and here we are - they were just staying on the shelf since 2011-2012.ESR meter shows increased resistance and triple value of nominal capacitance.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 07, 2024, 11:12:42 am
content: Does anyone know why unused capacitors popped? Presumably some sort of chemical reaction occurred inside the capacitor, which doesn't require any current to flow.I'm not aware of any lawsuits against these bad capacitor manufactures. At the very least those who purchased their products should get refunded.

author: janoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 07, 2024, 07:57:17 pm
content: Are we resurrecting a 6 years old thread?

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 07, 2024, 08:04:34 pm
content: Quote from: janoc on January 07, 2024, 07:57:17 pmWhy not? There still plenty of these crappy capacitors around.

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 07, 2024, 08:35:48 pm
content: The missing secret sauce in the electrolyte was an anti-corrosion additive. Surprised to see those corrode so bad just in storage.Capxon was privatized on Oct. 2020 and was de-listed by the HK exchange.There are many scam chinese component companies that get on the stock exchange, registered in the Caymen Islands, load up on investor dollars.Next is the pump'n'dump and then close down once everyone realizes the parts are crap, accounting irregularities etc. Rinse and repeat.Capxon group looks legit? and it could be that they are heavily counterfeited. But I've never seen one last, ever...