Why there's no DDE on Flir's handheld cameras? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: tske
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2025, 04:32:51 pm
content: So I just realized even the latest e96 or the top SC-x models don't have image enhancement, like DDE in their OEM cores. Why?I know they are mainly for science measurements and not imaging. But unenhanced LWIR images don't look good to me, and such a waste to their superior sensors.If you are thinking "because those enhancements distort signal-image relations", then why are they using histogram-equalization instead of linear presentation?Yes this post is just a chitchat, but still better than those "recommend me a TIC" ones.

author: Bill W
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 25, 2025, 05:47:38 pm
content: After histogram equalisation it is still a pure 'thermal only' image, with hotter things further up the scale than colder things.At or above 320x240 'DDE' (a.k.a. visual band image pollution) is not helpful IMO. Who wants artefacts like trees through windows being added in ?If you want 'linear', would that be linear in radiance or linear in temperature ?

author: DaJMasta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 25, 2025, 08:06:17 pm
content: I think a big part of the benefit of MSX and similar is the ability to compensate for fixed lens focus being a little out of focus for the target or compensating for low thermal resolution. Once you can focus your lens and have a reasonable resolution, the benefit and clarity it offers seems to be sort of moot. Why waste the processing power and add a second, offset lens that needs to be replaced every time you change thermal lenses if just using the core alone is plenty sufficient in most cases?

author: IR_Geek
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 26, 2025, 02:23:10 am
content: Guess even FLIR can't figure out what they want to call it.Digital Data EnhancementDigital Detail Enhancementhttps://www.flir.com/support-center/oem/what-is-the-digital-detail-enhancement-dde-filter2/?srsltid=AfmBOopLTQgp5qj_NbicLp_Emieoo16YIU7OFw4yEiDnTL_x_kGmPFeqhttps://www.flir.com/support-center/oem/why-doesnt-dde-appear-to-have-an-effect-on-agc/?srsltid=AfmBOooQAZuXaX-tRtA-1WhKXy5Zn52PVaiUK3DsxxRiwN_3OajPfCFeI'd lump all this into the LAP (local area processing) that is intended for a human viewing the screen. Basically just a way to take higher bit depth data (say 14 bit) and display on lower bit depth screen. As long as the RAW data is not lost then it's just a user preference. If you actually want to do something with the data, then avoiding all non-linear processing is a must.

author: tske
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 26, 2025, 01:18:37 pm
content: Quote from: Bill W on February 25, 2025, 05:47:38 pmQuote from: DaJMasta on February 25, 2025, 08:06:17 pmGuys... You are confusing DDE with MSX.MSX is cheap crap and widely used on Flir's handheld cameras, I hate that.DDE is totally different, it reveals more details using only thermal sensor. DRS calls it ICE.

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 26, 2025, 03:40:37 pm
content: tske,I cannot answer your question definitively but can comment on where I have found DDE in use. In all cases DDE was present on thermal imaging systems designed to "detect" a target. That is to say, it was used to bring out detail in an image to enable the user/operator of the camera to spot a target of interest when it might otherwise go unnoticed due to low thermal delta to surrounding environs. I have seen DDE used on CCTV security systems and handheld surveillance systems.The security arena seems to be its main use.As to why we do not see DDE on general use thermal cameras, that would be for the manufacturers to comment on but I believe it has remained the preserve of security related thermal imaging products as that is where it provides the most benefit. Whilst a handheld general purpose thermal imaging camera may be used to search for a particular target, be it a human, animal or other target of interest, that is not its intended primary role and the OEM likely offers products more suited to that role. It is more about markets and intended use and the OEM's tend to add features to some products that are deemed useful, yet omit them from other products serving a different market. DDE has its place but I do not know many thermographers who would need or use such a tool on the thermal survey. The standard thermography focussed thermal imaging camera can pull out important detail with its low noise, small temperature span capabilities. I know that this is not the definitive answer that you seek, but I have spoken to several manufacturers of thermal imaging cameras about the choices that they have made with thermal camera designs and it often comes down to marketing strategy, design team meetings, cost reduction and the decision for the lead designer of the correct configuration of a product to meet the needs of a particular market segment. DDE has its place, just not in the general thermal imaging market.Fraser

author: tske
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 13, 2025, 02:33:02 am
content: You are right, they seems only integrate those functions for surveillance purposes.Looking at the picture of your old post:Quote from: Fraser on January 20, 2017, 05:50:38 pmIt's such a phenomenal difference, some details are totally missing without ICE.Seems there are some fundamental difference between visible light and thermal IR, which require completely different algorithm for processing, because nothing similar is needed for a visible-light camera.

author: tske
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 14, 2025, 12:36:04 pm
content: Thank you for your insights. It's really interesting to read.

author: radioorizont
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2025, 03:14:38 pm
content: Hi, my Flir p660 has DDE in the menu, some Flir products seem to have that enabled.