Analog Devices in talks to buy Maxim - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: chicken
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2020, 04:16:02 am
content: Another big chip merger in the works:https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-07-13/analog-devices-is-said-near-deal-to-buy-maxim-for-17-billionIt feels like the AD/Linear merger was just yesterday, but it's already been 4 years!

author: daqq
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2020, 06:11:55 am
content: Another one gets assimilated... damn, this is not going to end well.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2020, 07:12:23 am
content: Old saying: "Friends don't let friends buy Maxim".It would be a shame if AD becomes tarred by that percepetion.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2020, 07:39:20 am
content: Will you finally be able to buy Maxim parts then?I'd really not like to see yet another semiconductor company assimilated by the borg. We need competition, not megacorps.

author: kripton2035
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2020, 08:19:59 am
content: in the end there will only be one ...

author: daqq
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2020, 10:30:30 am
content: Quote from: kripton2035 on July 13, 2020, 08:19:59 amMore likely a few giant ones who will most certainly have no sort of secret price fixing back room deals and will most certainly not form any sort of cartel that would affect competition.

author: station240
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 13, 2020, 11:16:04 am
content: I really don't see the point of these takeovers, I mean less choice/innovation is bad for economies.The most commonly used parts are those with multiple manufacturers, like the 78xx regulators, 74xx/40xx logic, jelly bean opamps/passives.Single source parts can be a disaster for manufacturing, as history has shown.

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2020, 11:28:45 am
content: Well, generally I agree that the combination of medium-sized semiconductor manufacturers to few megacorporations is a bit scary, I would dare to say that in case of Maxim, a company with reputation of having quite a few interesting and innovative designs and products, but failure to meet specs and failure to deliver parts due to manufacturing logistics problems, being acquired by AD, a company well known to handle these areas very well, can only be good.For many designers, this could finally mean they are actually able to use the Maxim parts they have looked at but couldn't afford because of the risks involved when dealing with Maxim.

author: bitwelder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2020, 11:32:40 am
content: What's the overlap between AD and Maxim catalogues?(i.e., which Maxim parts would likely be obsoleted ?)

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2020, 11:36:28 am
content: Quote from: bitwelder on July 13, 2020, 11:32:40 amtom66's comment is appropriate: "Will you finally be able to buy Maxim parts then?".Or to answer your question with a question, "would we notice any difference if Maxim obsoleted a part?"

author: daqq
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2020, 12:03:02 pm
content: QuoteBut they are awesome for stockholders. This sort of thing is not meant as good for the customer, but rather good for the company - companies understandably don't like competition. Customers do.

author: pidcon
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2020, 12:35:58 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on July 13, 2020, 07:12:23 amI don't understand the old saying. Could you please elaborate?

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2020, 12:44:34 pm
content: Quote from: pidcon on July 13, 2020, 12:35:58 pmhttps://www.google.com/search?q=%22friends+don%27t+let+friends+use+maxim%22https://www.google.com/search?q=%22friends+don%27t+let+friends+buy+maxim%22

author: pidcon
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2020, 12:55:55 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on July 13, 2020, 12:44:34 pmhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LOL

author: schmitt trigger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2020, 02:22:13 pm
content: If those were truly mergers, I wouldn't have a problem.Rather these are acquisitions, for pretty good money. Money which has to be borrowed, saddling debt on (usually) the acquired company.The end result is that instead of re-investing profits in R&D and equipment, those profits are used to service debt."Cost reduction" efforts become the over-riding company focus. People leave or are let go.The end result is that the acquired company is decimated, and the resulting conglomerate is less than the sum of its previous parts.Having said this, ADI actually has done a good job with Linear Tech, it has allowed it to maintain some modicum of corporate identity. LTSpice has not been replaced by ADSpice.Not so with TI, which has completely digested and vanished National. Among others, like Burr-Brown and Unitrode.

author: DrG
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2020, 03:13:52 pm
content: So many years ago, back in the day so-to-speak, I bought a few shares of Dallas Semiconductor, and ended up owning fewer shares of Maxim. If this goes through, I guess I will end up owning still fewer shares of AD.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2020, 04:11:12 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on July 13, 2020, 07:39:20 amThe real competition is probably foreign companies (Chinese, particularly?).

author: grouchobyte
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2020, 06:26:42 pm
content: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-maxim-intg-m-a-analog-devices/chipmaker-analog-devices-to-buy-rival-maxim-for-about-21-billion-idUSKCN24E14B21 billion? Finally I can consider Maxim again after mothballing them for over 3 decades. I have been lobbying TI, LT and ADI to buy the f***king turd for decades.Maxim royally pissed me off in 1991 and I swore I would never consider them ever again,.... until nowBob

author: AndyC_772
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2020, 06:49:41 pm
content: https://www.theregister.com/2020/07/13/analog_devices_confirms_merger_with/As long as I can still buy the MAX16910 I'll be happy, it's a fantastic little regulator. Robust, surprisingly accurate, and good for 125 deg C.

author: nfmax
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2020, 06:56:43 pm
content: So Barrie Gilbert's two IC houses are finally united: Tektronix sold their analogue IC operation to Maxim when the end of the analogue CRO became inevitable.

author: Echo88
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2020, 07:14:07 pm
content: How can those companies proclaim that chinese competition is the reason for mergers when China continues to strive for independence in electronic components either way?

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2020, 07:20:15 pm
content: Quote from: Echo88 on July 13, 2020, 07:14:07 pmThe Chinese are good and getting better - and they have scale. So to compete against Chinese companies requires not only being good, but also requires economies of scale.Either that, or be a "boutique shop" with specialised products of some kind.

author: 16bitanalogue
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2020, 07:46:04 pm
content: Quote from: grouchobyte on July 13, 2020, 06:26:42 pmTo be fair, Maxim has never been a company to pay attention to the smaller companies, makers, or hobbyists. Maxim focuses on their strategic partners like Apple, Samsung, Amazon, etc. So the undercurrent of "Friends don't let friends by Maxim" has never been a concern for the company because there has never been a desire to play in the mass market.Contrast this to TI, especially over the last 15 years, has had a strategy of "growing the tail" and going after the mass market and doing a pretty damn good job at it.

author: grouchobyte
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2020, 08:09:45 pm
content: Quote from: 16bitanalogue on July 13, 2020, 07:46:04 pmCorrect. I agree. Maxim never gave a s**t about my business and never gave them a second look even though their parts were ideal in my designs. So for 30 plus years they never saw the light of day in my world and when I explained the rationale to my employer and my clients....Most were totally okay with my decisions simply because they themselves had been burned by Maxim’s selfish policies or as they called it “ “strategy” or market “focus”So now, because of market pressure ADI are acquiring Maxim. I applaud that because now I can consider them as a complement to the other global players, since many of their parts are an outstanding value to me now clearly without the maxim bullsh*t factor.....like why are the MOQ and deliveries ridiculous, etc

author: E-Design
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2020, 08:25:12 pm
content: Quote from: grouchobyte on July 13, 2020, 08:09:45 pmAgreed.. Ideally, ADI buys them up and takes their portfolio as their own including ADI/LTgenerous policiesof very rarely obsoleting a device. On the other hand, if ADI adopts Maxims obsolescence policy - the world will end.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2020, 08:31:38 pm
content: Quote from: E-Design on July 13, 2020, 08:25:12 pmAren't modern manufacturing processes flexible enough that it is pretty easy to bake a new batch of a chip?

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2020, 08:48:30 pm
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on July 13, 2020, 08:31:38 pmnope. on the contrary ...modern processes are so finely tuned and the fabs so expensive you don't want to run old gunk in them- for a given factory/process the cost per square millimeter is a quasi constant.- the smaller the geometries you can run the higher the cost becomes.so running something that was designed for 1 micrometer in a 8 nanometer fab is horrifically expensive ! becasue you are using equipment that con do precise work for course work. Tt's like buying a set of micrometers to mark a line in chalk where you are going to chop the tree with an axe ...

author: grouchobyte
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2020, 09:06:42 pm
content: In the late 1990’s i worked as a design engineer at Maxtek ( a Tektronix and Maxim JV)Even then.....the friction between these two tech companies was contentious eventually ending in a separation in which I was absorbed into Tektronix. Jack Gifford was the Maxim CEO back then. He micromanaged everything including stationary suppliesYou can well imagine how bad the corporate culture was back then. That said, Maxim treated its small customers like crap unless they were big like apple, etc. To Maxim “size” does matter. Always did.Hopefully ADI can integrate the products into the fold and train the employees to adhere to the ADI rules of the road. ADI did a good job with LT so my confidence is high. Their products will have a home no matter what, but those upper management assholes need to go.... imho

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2020, 09:18:37 pm
content: I don't think the endless mergers are good for anyone save a few investors perhaps. However, in the case of Maxim there seems ample room for improvement. They have plenty of interesting parts on paper but little of it is more than vapour ware for most people.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2020, 09:41:35 pm
content: Quote from: free_electron on July 13, 2020, 08:48:30 pmI'm not sure I understand the reasoning. For example: say I have an old 300dpi document that I used to print on my 300dpi laser printer in the past. Then today, I choose to print it on my brand new 2400dpi laser printer... the document will look the same (still 300dpi resolution), and I will not have incurred greater cost for the fact of the new printer being capable of much higher precision - paper is still paper, toner is still toner, etc.?This is true even if the new printer is much more expensive than the old one. I guess if you write off part of the cost of the printer on each printout, you could get uneconomical results compared to the old, written down printer, but that seems more of an accounting technicality than a real cost?

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2020, 10:59:45 pm
content: The problem is that the costs of the machines is too high to produce chips with large geometries. And it wouldn't surprise me if it turns out a 10nm fab can't do 100nm chips for some reason but free_electron knows this kind of details for sure.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2020, 11:23:04 pm
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on July 13, 2020, 09:41:35 pmPrinting is just one part of the work of a fab. All the prcessing steps in a fab are tailored to just one or two tightly defined processes. When you design a chip it is targeted at that small number of fabs which run the relevant process. If you design a chip that is a huge hit you can often be massively constrained by the inability to add production in more fabs. Many of the end of life notices you will see, especially for long life analogue parts, relate to the fab or fabs getting so old spares are no longer available, and the parts are impractical to move to newer fabs without major re-engineering to a new process.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2020, 12:41:11 am
content: Quote from: tggzzz on July 13, 2020, 12:44:34 pmMore direct answers, currently evolving, athttps://groups.google.com/d/msg/sci.electronics.design/vraf26G86vo/zPjLOOZpBgAJ

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2020, 12:55:00 pm
content: I still remember when Analog Devices bought PMI (Precision Monolithics Incorporated).Fabrication processes are also dependent on suppliers and this is a major problem for old linear processes.

author: peter-h
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2020, 01:11:29 pm
content: The problem is that Maxim trashed and devalued their own business, through utterly inept management.Here in the UK, they "serve" from an office in Ireland. Nothing wrong with that (corporation tax is lower there) but a year or two ago they stopped answering the phone or emails.Yes you read that right.As a customer, you cannot phone Maxim and cannot email Maxim.You can communicate with this owner of the universe only by support tickets on their website. No discussion possible of anything. They reply to the ticket. Even an RFQ for 10k cannot be communicated on.Over many years I designed in loads of MAX489 MAX3089 MAX232 MAX3232 etc chips but now look at TI every time. TI are also generally cheaper, and of course any avoidance of special parts is a great idea and always was. Maxim is so difficult to deal with that we buy their parts from distis but all new products don't use them.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2020, 01:17:49 pm
content: Quote from: David Hess on July 14, 2020, 12:55:00 pmI'm really surprised that older designs can't be "emulated" on newer processes. - Perhaps they can... but not without quite a bit of engineering effort that perhaps approaches a redesign - maybe like an ASIC or something?

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2020, 01:33:49 pm
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on July 14, 2020, 01:17:49 pmI'm puzzled why you would expect to be able to emulate older processes in newer fabs. They don't just keep shrinking the geometries. The chemicals used, the etching techniques, everything changes over time. You probably couldn't even find the database needed to generate a new mask set that would fit in the modern equipment.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2020, 02:11:57 pm
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on July 14, 2020, 01:17:49 pmThose designs are tailored to the specifics of the fabrication process.So for instance the old NPN only processes included slow and low gain lateral PNPs made with NPN process steps but those PNPs cannot be replaced with the PNPs on a more modern complementary bipolar process if the old design relied on the 30+ volt base-emitter breakdown voltage of those old PNPs, like almost every operational amplifier with a wide differential input voltage range, including the LM324, 741, and 301A. The "modern" replacements for those parts which are built on a "superior" complementary bipolar process are limited to about 7 volts.If you look through the Linear Technology parts portfolio, there are cases where an older part was redesigned but they used a modified part number for the new part, so it does happen but usually the old part remains available.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2020, 03:53:28 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on July 14, 2020, 01:33:49 pmToo much exposure to software, I guess!To a software engineer, using a virtual machine to emulate an older architecture is a commonly used approach, and gives "near perfect" albeit not 100% exactly the same result as the original designs - but "good enough for Australia", even though the new technology it runs on has absolutely nothing to do with what was available back when the original was designed.It doesn't seem beyond imagination that an older part could be emulated with a newer design, one that might have a completely different schematic diagram that suits the newer processes, yet ends up behaving like the older part at least on a "good enough for Australia" basis?

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2020, 04:04:03 pm
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on July 14, 2020, 03:53:28 pmIf you want a new part which broadly emulates an old part, that kind of thing is being developed all the time. The original topic was sustaining production of a guaranteed compatible drop in part. A new part will generally require a whole new design around it. For example, a modern part will generally require a lower supply voltage, and have different voltage ranges on its I/O pins, etc. A broad range of more subtle differences, like tolerance to EMI, will also need to be allowed for in a new design using the new part.

author: Sal Ammoniac
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2020, 04:15:22 pm
content: Quote from: daqq on July 13, 2020, 06:11:55 amNot quite yet. The merger still needs government approval, so there's still a chance it won't happen, but I wouldn't count on that given the current administration.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2020, 11:49:46 pm
content: Quote from: Sal Ammoniac on July 14, 2020, 04:15:22 pmIt is not like there is a comparably sized third competitor to Analog Devices and Texas Instrument anyway.

author: c64
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2020, 04:40:00 am
content: Quote from: peter-h on July 14, 2020, 01:11:29 pmMaybe that's why Analog want to buy them. Here in AU you cannot phone Analog and cannot email Analog. Well, you can e-mail, but don't expect any answer (at least I've never got any)

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2020, 11:08:07 am
content: Quote from: c64 on July 16, 2020, 04:40:00 amIts easy for people in many countries to talk to someone from Analog. Maybe you need to move to a country where the electronics industry is still strong enough to keep local representation from the major vendors. Most organisations are very much organised on country by country lines. If you have to call a representative in another country they score no brownie points for helping you, so they probably won't.

author: DrG
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 24, 2020, 05:35:20 pm
content: Quote from: DrG on July 13, 2020, 03:13:52 pmThe other day, I received several hundred pages of "Merger Proposal". I read the cover to learn that in the proposal, it is 0.63 shares AD / share of Maxim. Apparently, my goal is to own only one share of the biggest, baddest and only semiconductor in existence.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 24, 2020, 05:54:00 pm
content: Quote from: DrG on September 24, 2020, 05:35:20 pmIt won't stop until there is just one company left - "The Firm" - that does absolutely everything!

author: mawyatt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 24, 2020, 06:21:57 pm
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on September 24, 2020, 05:54:00 pmAnd that will be the end of innovationBest,

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 24, 2020, 06:26:39 pm
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on July 14, 2020, 03:53:28 pmWell, you can, sort of. FPGAs and related parts can be made to emulate the function of many digital ICs, however it requires considerable effort and even then the result is often not compatible as a drop in replacement in an existing system. A new IC could be designed to replace an old IC but it's going to be an entirely new part requiring a lot of effort to design and test for what may be a small market. Perhaps a comparison that is more easily visualized, try to design a solid state replacement for a vacuum tube, in most cases it's a lot harder than it sounds. Sure you can design an entire new circuit that does what the original tube based circuit did, but it's probably going to have entirely different supply voltage and thermal requirements and it may not behave *exactly* the same under all circumstances. Designing a solid state module that plugs into a tube socket and works with all the original circuits that were made to use that tube is in most cases a difficult or impossible task. The tube might be a lot lower tech than a modern transistor but that doesn't mean that a transistor fab can crank out vacuum tubes.

author: mawyatt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 24, 2020, 07:21:52 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on September 24, 2020, 06:26:39 pmSome time ago I recall some folks working on a "Solid State Tube" where a vacuum tube was integrated on a silicon die. Think these were tiny triodes, with a proper cathode, plate and even a suspended filament in a sub-surface sealed vacuum. This may have been related to vacuum tubes having extremely good nuclear radiation tolerance.Best,

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 24, 2020, 09:51:18 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on September 24, 2020, 06:26:39 pmBack in the day, you could actually buy transistorized "tube substitutes", at least for some tubes, for TV repair purposes. These devices were probably optimized for that particular role, so likely couldn't work in every conceivable circuit that the original tube would have worked with - but good enough to fix the TV, and a lot longer lasting!

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 24, 2020, 11:21:57 pm
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on September 24, 2020, 09:51:18 pmThey had different "FETRONs" for the same tube operating under different conditions like with an amplifier versus an oscillator.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2020, 11:30:18 pm
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on July 13, 2020, 09:41:35 pmin this case : your 2400 dpi printer is 100 times more expensive in purchasing coast and 20 times more expensive to run than your old printer.The paper you print on is also 30 times more expensive than your old paper.on the other hand : the upgraded technology can print in a font 150 times smaller than your old printer. you sell single letters ...what do you do ? printing in 300 dpi costs 60 times more than with the old printer. on the other hand , if you print in the new smaller font your costs are half. the drawback : the new , smaller letters don't work to replace broken letters in the old fontsize.There is no reason to keep printing this old stuff. the newer letters are more profitable , and they allow miniaturisation of the end product.