private household vs. business enterprise: active power vs. apparent power?! - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: PushUp
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 12, 2022, 07:03:39 pm
content: private household vs. business enterprise: How does billing look like with reference to active power (W) vs. apparent power (VA)?...just curious...as I haven't thought about it before...paying more attention to consumption in general due to different aspects in the entire world...especially nowadays...When we all (should) have to consider the ecological footprint of our earth, I don't see the point why (not) to distinguish between active power (W) and apparent power (VA) even for private households by the local electric power station?When a private household uses consumer-friendly products like very efficient LED lamps for example, why should this be an disadvantage for payment, when it costs more for the better product, saving energy (reactive power) by the local electric power station, but does not save that money on the billing itself in contrast to an inefficient LED lamp, which probabaly shows nearly the same active power, but with a very bad power factor? Both lamps give light and as long as you don't compare/repair them, you will probably never see the difference?!Is the only reason, not being able to measure/filter these measured values with the standard electric meter within private households or what and where is the difference between private households vs. business enterprises, that they have to pay for apparent power (VA)?Does this mean always and for everything? Or is there also a seperation between active power (W) and apparent power (VA) within business enterprises: What about the machine in the production and the desk lamp in the accounts department? Always apparent power...?ThanX & Cheers!

author: Ice-Tea
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 12, 2022, 07:10:53 pm
content: Suppose scale plays a role. A meter capable of measuring reactive power will be more expensivee and I guess it just doesn't warrant the extra cost to be able to "catch" a bad 4W LED lamp in the act. Better to spend the effort to monitor a 1MW pump or crane and spend the effort to correct that.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 12, 2022, 07:27:50 pm
content: QuoteThe old 2 coil meters used for billing couldn't and a separate power factor meter was fitted however the new smart meters can.

author: Benta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 12, 2022, 07:45:02 pm
content: I don't understand your question. Or whether it's really a question...

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 12, 2022, 11:38:57 pm
content: Quote from: PushUp on April 12, 2022, 07:03:39 pmThis is somewhat backwards, large consumers were charged for bad power factor, but it wasn't (normally/traditionally) billed as a separate metered item. It was more like a fine or penalty for large consumers, keep your power factor above 0.XX or you get charged more:https://app.bchydro.com/accounts-billing/rates-energy-use/electricity-rates/power-factor.html?utm_source=direct&utm_medium=redirect&utm_content=powerfactorOr a direct answer for some users with smart meters:Quote from:https://www.ergon.com.au/retail/business/tariffs-and-prices/large-business-tariffs/kva-tariffsAs always, greatly varies depending on location!

author: John B
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 12, 2022, 11:39:16 pm
content: I think the question is whether a household consumer who makes the effort to only run high power factor equipment should have that reflected in their electricity bill, where as at the moment there is no real financial incentive for a consumer to do so, and is only really mandated at a governmental level by statists.

author: PushUp
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 13, 2022, 02:56:56 pm
content: I used an example with LED lamps as this topic is discussed in the forum:"I thought LED lights were efficient?"https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/i-thought-led-lights-were-efficient/As long as most private households do use LED lamps with a power factor of 0.54 - 0.59, as an example, such as some cheap osram or v-tac LED lamps, it does play a role:5 LED lamps per household with a bad PF of 0.59 (= 12.62 VAr) x 40 million private households in germany = 504.8 MVAr...and worldwide...!!?5 LED lamps per household with a good PF of 0.95 (= 3.481 VAr) x 40 million private households in germany = 139.24 MVAr...and worldwide...!!?Ergo:When anybody uses good PF LED lamps you could immediately save nearly28%72% of energy - probably not on your own bill, but for the economical footprint in general, beginning with your own local electric power station. The mass of consumers using unfriendly consumer products do play a massive role in ruining or saving the "planet"!...which hardly anybody considers...or is interested in...?!That is my point - apart of one - all understood the right way! When it is possible to do this with business enterprises it is more than fair to do this also with any private household....and yes: developing countries won't be the first to start with, but it is probably the right way to go in the near future...Cheers!

author: Ice-Tea
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 13, 2022, 03:29:30 pm
content: I'm not sure you entirely understand the concept of reactive power. In simple terms: electricity plants don't burn additional fuel to "generate" it (*). It does not require additional "work" to be done. The only challenge is that it *does* take away from the capacity of the plant. Which makes it an economical question rather than an ecological one.(*) aside from some minor losses in the plant and transmission etc.

author: Benta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 13, 2022, 06:44:29 pm
content: @Pushup:Sorry, you're talking throught your hat with half-knowledge from some "Green Seminar/Workshop".PF falls in two categories:1: current distortion. Yes, cheap LEDs play a role here, but so do all other consumer devices <100 W. And they do not play a major role. It tends to average out.2: reactive loading. The power companies and power distribution ditto have absolutely zero interest in PF=1. Why not? Because it would make the total power network an enormous resonant circuit, which is completely undesirable/uncontrollable. Desired "large scale" is PF=0.9...0.95, which is stable.