Almost 1 in 3 pilots in Pakistan have fake licenses, aviation minister says - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: syau
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2020, 11:04:23 pm
content: https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/25/business/pakistan-fake-pilot-intl-hnk/index.htmlhttps://www.aljazeera.com/news/2020/06/pakistan-airline-suspends-150-pilots-alleged-licence-fraud-200625110028780.html

author: Homer J Simpson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2020, 11:16:15 pm
content: Part II is where what appears to have happened really starts to blow your mind.PT 1PT II

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2020, 01:48:27 am
content: Considering how many flights that airline has made, it looks like those fake pilots are, while not as good as the real ones, still surprisingly good...

author: nuclearcat
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 26, 2020, 02:02:45 am
content: Quote from: amyk on June 26, 2020, 01:48:27 amSimilar problems exist in networking field.For example my friend complained today that he have problems with network engineers from particular countries, who bought his company product, while many of them bear titles "Dr. ","Eng." and Cisco certifications - they are unable to do even basic networking stuff.Turned out in my life i assisted in job interviews in this countries and investigated, that such titles and certificates are trivial to buy and bribe those who are supposed to exam students.With only difference that network engineer lack of skills and mistakes will not kill 200+ people onboard.It seems to me that it is important to voice such incidents and revoke certificates issued by and certification rights of those who commit such crimes and demand after such incidents more supervision for specific countries from side of international bodies or companies.Especially citizens of such countries should report this stuff, if they want the documents issued in this country to be respected throughout the world, and if they dont want to end up on table of surgeon, who bought his diploma.

author: schmitt trigger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2020, 03:11:54 am
content: Subscribing to thread, very interesting topic

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2020, 04:00:16 am
content: it seems too nonlinear to assume quality scales with GDP. I guess the assumption that culture/policy values air travel so high that it uses a disproportionate amount of money compared to other services that are obviously degraded due to low economic power is not true.This needs to change because the world is not going to downgrade itself to accept it. I personally suspect its rifle with scandalous bribery.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2020, 04:06:46 am
content: Quote from: amyk on June 26, 2020, 01:48:27 amthese standards do not need to be downgraded

author: pickle9000
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2020, 05:47:32 am
content: This reminds me of Korean Air Flight 801, the pilot flew the plane into a mountainside and the copilot seen it coming but didn't take control.Flip that and look at the "Gimli Glider" an out of fuel 767 landed with such skill it's hard to imagine.

author: donotdespisethesnake
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2020, 06:58:52 am
content: Quote from: amyk on June 26, 2020, 01:48:27 amI was thinking the same thing. Apparently two areas of deception are proxies - getting someone else to take the exam, and falsifying training hours, e.g. claiming to be Pilot in Command (PIC) for a training flight when you were basically a passenger.Although paper exams are traditional, they are not very effective at teaching skills, particularly where the skills involve muscle memory, management of dynamic situations. It is really hands on experience where proficiency is acquired. I would guess after a few hundred hours flying on type, you will have achieved enough skill to handle 99% of conditions.I don't think we know yet if either pilot in the PIA 8303 accident had any "fake" qualifications. While their incompetence was egregious, it is not unique. There have been several accidents where the actions of the flight crew seem inexplicable (excluding deliberate actions to destroy the aircraft). Other pilots express disbelief that simple incompetence is the cause, and suggest "incapacitation", due to fumes, medical reason etc etc. I don't think any of those accidents was ever proven to be incapacitation. The pilots screwed up all any themselves.Humans make mistakes, and pilots however well trained, will continue to make mistakes. Writing those off as outliers isn't going to improve safety.

author: pickle9000
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2020, 07:12:32 am
content: Pilot training revolves around mistakes. How to avoid them is part of it but how to recover is equally important. Skipping these lessons is unacceptable.

author: langwadt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2020, 08:21:58 am
content: Quote from: donotdespisethesnake on June 26, 2020, 06:58:52 amI think it is because this doesn't seem like a simple error or oversight caused it, it was error upon error upon error and ignoring numerous warnings and what is supposed to be hard requirements on what needs to be done when

author: Howardlong
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2020, 08:27:08 am
content: Quote from: amyk on June 26, 2020, 01:48:27 amWhile it is unnacceptable, it’s not clear to me how many are fraudulent exam takers and how many lack recent testing, currency or type ratings. It might be someone who hasn’t got a current medical for example. Any way you look at it it’s unacceptable, but that might explain why these “fake” pilots are still “surprisingly good”.

author: Syntax Error
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2020, 09:23:10 am
content: Identifying fake candidates is only difficult when only the managers are allowed to do the hiring. Or put another way, after five minutes face to face with real workers, the fakes will shine through!Whether recruiting pilots, EEs, IT people or even dog walkers, those who are experienced in the must be in on the interview.However, the pool of available candidates is often squewed by the monkeys we call recruitment consultants, who seek CVs on keywords - using software. And fake candidate CVs are always stuffed with the correct keywords.Worse, third party contractors and consultants fill your project with "top rank" Phd and MBA level staff whose qualifications you'll never be able to verify - even if it's obvious to your own staff that these guys know f* all.As for pilots, there are plenty of cases where companies hire pilots with the wrong certification for the aircraft type. But in a margin squeezed industry, it's not just the pilots who'll have fake cerftifactions, many of their aircraft spares will have too.

author: edy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2020, 02:20:52 pm
content: This thread reminds me of this scene for some reason...

author: chickenHeadKnob
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2020, 07:12:51 am
content: Quote from: pickle9000 on June 26, 2020, 05:47:32 amWith respect to the "Gimli glider" what people mostly forget is that the electrical fault to the fuel measurement circuit was only the prelude to the cluster-f**k of errors made by the maintenance crews and Pearson and Quintal themselves. They caused the aircraft to run out of fuel. The best summary of the flight that I heard is :"they did everything wrong up to the point of fuel starvation over Dryden and then did everything right to save the bacon"The Air Transat 236 event was very similar, but that case was not caused by the aircrew screwing up to begin with. Some errors were attributed in their interpreting of the alarms that were occurring mid-flight.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2020, 09:24:27 pm
content: It just came out in a book written by a close relative that one of the most powerful people in the US got into/through college like that. I have not read it yet, but I want to. I am hearing about stuff like this more and more.Quote from: donotdespisethesnake on June 26, 2020, 06:58:52 am

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2020, 10:25:19 pm
content: TheUS college admissions scandalhad parents paying $15,000-$100,000 for someone to write the SAT in place of their kid, and over $250,000 to get their kid into universities such as Yale, Southern California, UCLA, Stanford etc.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2020, 10:47:59 pm
content: Quote from: Howardlong on June 26, 2020, 08:27:08 amThat was my thought as well. It's obviously not a good situation but it's possible that the pilots are adequately skilled and experienced, just missing some of the required paperwork. Being licensed doesn't automatically mean that someone is a good pilot, and lacking a license doesn't necessarily mean that they're incompetent. That's not to suggest we shouldn't bother with the license though.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2020, 08:45:02 pm
content: Quote from: blueskull on July 17, 2020, 07:16:43 amWhat is the return on that? Surely there are other far less expensive ways to learn fluent English? $250k may turn out to be worthwhile to get a degree from a prestigious university but I wouldn't call it "cheap", and it's only going to be worthwhile if it's the right degree and the person actually does something worthwhile with it. If I were going to spend $250k on anything I'd want to see a very clear path to a return on my investment.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2020, 09:09:13 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on July 16, 2020, 10:47:59 pmYup. Obviously practising without a valid license is concerning and illegal, but apparently most of them are still able to operate an airliner properly, at least in general, which already requires a good amount of knowledge and experience. So it's pretty unlikely those unlicensed pilots are just random joes who are not pilots. Most of them are likely to have lost their license for whatever reason, or have been close to, but could never get licensed, but have had proper training. Of course this is no excuse, but I just can't imagine someone who hasn't been trained operating an airliner. You have to know A LOT of stuff including many procedures, radio communication, etc.Would be interesting to understand why there are so many over there. As this is a pretty poor country, I'm just guessing here, but I would guess maybe it's a factor. Getting licensed may be expensive and a fraction of them may have learned how to circumvent this. Likewise, those who were licensed but lost their license for any reason, they may prefer going the fake route rather than losing a decent job to probably get back to being piss poor.For the case of getting initially licensed, if there are indeed that many "pilots" that are good enough but not licensed, I guess authorities over there should take measures, not just to prevent fake licenses, but probably also to help pilots getting licensed, especially if money is a primary reason they don't (maybe it's not, so this is just a thought.)

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2020, 12:31:02 am
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on July 17, 2020, 09:09:13 pmI suspect it's largely infrastructure. Even in a developed nation there tends to be a degree of dysfunction in the government and I dread having to do things that require interacting with government agencies like our department of licensing. There are all kinds of hoops to jump through and things can be thwarted by various technicalities. I can only imagine what it's like in a 3rd world nation with loads of corruption at all levels of government. I'm only speculating but there could be situations where you have to bribe multiple officials to put the proper paperwork through and then they may or may not ever get around to it. Maybe it becomes compelling to take shortcuts and bypass some of the official steps. Who knows? If Pakastani airliners were crashing on a regular basis I'd likely think differently but in most of the 3rd world lax maintenance is a bigger issue than lack of pilot skill.

author: pickle9000
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2020, 06:40:45 am
content: Not very confidence building. Parents paying for a diploma, pilots doing the same.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2020, 12:46:21 pm
content: $250k to modify a child's chance of getting into a top college is considered cheap. Here in the US a few of these scandals have come out recently. It seems that the computerization of all records has opened up the floodgates for fraud. At the same time, millions of smart young people cant afford to get an education and are being discouraged against pursuing one because of the cost, and soon the unlikelihood of getting a job even with one. Because of underpricing.Quote from: james_s on July 17, 2020, 08:45:02 pmAmericans and Australians and British people who know the difference between good grammar and common mistakes native Chinese speakers make should sell their services to less-rich, or bargain hunting Chinese over the net helping them learn conversational English. Or, maybe trade English language conversation services, in exchange for tutoring in other skills?

author: chris_leyson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2020, 01:16:16 pm
content: EASA recommends suspending Pakistan International Airlines, Juan Brown had a fair bit to say about that and it wasn't all about fake credentials

author: peter-h
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2020, 05:18:56 pm
content: Anyone with exposure to the professional pilot training scene (as I've had, as a CPL/IR, though I don't fly commercially) will know that cheating is endemic among 3rd World candidates.They do their class assignments together in the hotel. I've seen it. If they can, they write the answers on the back of airway charts, etc.The exam system encourages cheating because the QB (question bank) has been public for about 20 years, so everybody learns by memorising the QB. You more or less have to, because most of it is bull**t and irrelevant. Most regard it as a joke.For customers willing to go a bit further, there has been complicity among certain schools over the years. One, in Spain, was selling the JAA ATPL exam passes (14 exams) for €10k... reportedly. That saves a lot of revision.So you may ask: how do airline pilots manage to not crash all the time? Because they sit in the RHS (right hand seat; first officer) for hundreds of hours, with a training captain in the LHS who won't let them screw up. Well, that's what you have in most airlines...The written exams are mostly a barrier to make sure that only really keen people reach the cockpit. They also keep the schools in business, where the candidate dumps 80-100k, for a course (a CPL/IR finished in a piston twin; yes a piston twin is barely relevant to a big twin jet but that's another Q you aren't supposed to ask) which you could do DIY for 30-35k. There is a lot of money in pilot training, both in the 14 exams and in the flight training, and a lot of vested interests everywhere.The real reasons why 3rd World airlines are less safe - even if they have the same brand new Boeing or Airbus planes - are to do with the process and culture. There is massive corruption. Who you know matters. Corners are cut. Loss of face is unacceptable, so mistakes are covered up, instead of learnt from. Maintenance is often poor, which is OK until enough things go wrong together and then it bites you. It is no coincidence that the 737 MAX got crashed only by these airlines; outfits like Ryanair never got anywhere near close enough to stalling the plane to discover its dodgy stall protection software.ELP (English language proficiency) is often marginal, too. Lots of the candidates can barely understand the material. This is a serious enough issue in Europe, actually. Loads of French electronics graduates cannot read English (well, American, say Maxim) data sheets. So French designed products of all kinds use some amazingly obscure components - because the data sheets exist in French.EASA has suspended Pakistan airlines flying into Europe, along with many others.https://www.euroga.org/forums/hangar-talk/11981-are-big-jets-really-easy-to-fly-or-is-the-atpl-theory-just-garbage/post/250881#250881

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2020, 07:34:48 pm
content: Quote from: blueskull on July 18, 2020, 05:26:25 amThat's fascinating. So what do they do with this knowledge and experience? Return to China and then it has an advantage there? Or something else?Rather than buying such an expensive house near a good school zone can't they send their kids to an expensive private school anywhere in the country or the world even? I know nothing about the educational system in China, this is all new to me. In the USA some schools are certainly better than others and some will pay a premium to be in the zone of a school considered to be very good, but I've never heard of people going to such great lengths, we have snooty private schools for those who really demand the best.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 20, 2020, 11:22:20 pm
content: Sure, it may not happen that frequently, but parents in the US sometimes get sent to jail for lying about where they live to get them into a particularly good public school. (or get them out of a particularly bad- most typically hideously underfunded one) In the UK their GPS/phone tracking system is used to determine if parents are lying about where they live for school purposes. I'm sure that happens in the US too.Quote from: james_s on July 18, 2020, 07:34:48 pmIts a determinative factor in getting into a good college. Some schools are deemed so mediocre that even students who get a near perfect GPA are deemed as not having gone to a rigorous enough school. Those students will likely have to have done some original research or something really spectacular for a child in order to get into a top college.The race to get into the top college starts with going to the right kindergarden.