Bringing a product to market: Certification markings, not getting sued etc. - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: TimNJ
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 08, 2017, 06:24:02 pm
content: Hi all,I've been working on a guitar amplifier design for a couple of months now. While I am still doing testing and verification right now, the end goal is a product that has several advantages over current offerings and at a lower price point. For now, the project is just for me, but I have been putting a lot of effort into making it a manufactureable and (theoretically) reliable design. If I can get people interested in the amp, I would like to try to sell them.Now, I've never sold anything I've made before so one of my first questions before going any farther is: How do I protect myself if people do stupid things with my product? I've designed it to be as safe as possible, but that said, nothing is stopping a user from opening the thing up and grabbing the +400V rail.Additionally, are things like UL/CSA/CE approvals necessary? I feel like most consumers don't buy a product based on whether or not it has a certification mark on the back. I'm not implying that is abadthing to get your product checked out, but just wondering if it would be worth it (or necessary) for me, as a small scale "manufacturer".Thanks in advance,Tim

author: dmills
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 08, 2017, 06:52:07 pm
content: CE is necessary to sell into the EU, it basically serves as a declaration that you comply with LVD, ROHS and EMC, and you or your distributor will need to put something in place for WEEE.For the US market you need to get the FCC stuff done (And make sure the paperwork is right), they have gone after small musical instrument gear companies in the past, and levy nasty fines (They took electro-harmonix for $450K) a few years back.UL/ETL and such are an insurance industry thing, but some cities have mandated them in the US (LA IIRC being the biggie?), they mainly serve as a demonstration of good practise when something goes wrong, much better to be able to say to the jury, "The product was independently tested for safety by XXX and found to comply with the appropriate product standards" then having to say "Well we didn't think of that!".Regards, Dan.

author: Tomorokoshi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 09, 2017, 04:16:57 am
content: If they are local, the EMC and safety labs usually will help with identifying the standards that apply and the appropriate tests. What they ask for and suggest is sometimes negotiable and open to discussion, depending on how unique your design is and how unfamiliar they are with it. For instance, noting that it's an amplifier without pointing out the 400V rail might lead them to a less stringent quotation than would happen if it was only 50V. They will find it in the review, and then all the sudden another standard and 20 more hours might be needed. A good Theory of Operation for the evaluating engineer will help with that.The industrial projects I've seen go through EMC usually come in between $10,000 and $20,000. It depends on how complex they are, what connects to them, which global regions to cover, how many time you need to go back, etc. I don't do much with safety approvals but I suspect it's about the same. Perhaps with a simpler device it may be lower.If in their consultations you get quotations, they will specify which standards and their revisions will be applied. Buy each one and study them. It isn't easy language to work with at times, and often one standard will draw on other standards. You may need to purchase those as well. They tend to cost in the $25 to $200 range, depending on length, obscurity, popularity, etc. Expect to get 2 or 3 for each of EMC and safety.As for opening it up, security screws, safety labels, and warnings in the manual help with your side of the liability.Here's a trap to watch out for: sometimes the solution for one makes the other worse. For instance, adding a capacitor to deal with EMC may cause a safety issue somewhere else. You can do EMC pre-testing of specific things without getting a report. I suspect that if your amplifier isn't loaded with a bunch of high speed digital circuitry, clocks, and radios then it's more of an immunity issue than an emissions issue. This suggests doing the safety tests first, then go to EMC. Any changes may require only limited retesting.

author: Red Squirrel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 09, 2017, 04:18:39 am
content: I'm kind of curious about this myself. Is there some blanket way to protect yourself from any lawsuits at all, like I heard if you register as a corporation, you can just go bankrupt, but does that really work, or can they just sue you individually?

author: trophosphere
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 09, 2017, 05:12:34 am
content: Quote from: Red Squirrel on November 09, 2017, 04:18:39 amThere is something called "piercing the corporate veil" in the US which can open you up to lawsuit even though your business is registered as a corporation. If you knowingly did something malicious or even are ignorant of something that is expected in the industry that you are participating in then you - as an individual - will be liable. Even facets that are not directly related to the product itself can make yourself be vulnerable such as not keeping your business and individual finances separate. Needless to say, if you want the full protection then you will need professional help or at least in the initial period to make sure everything is in place.In regards to certifications... from what I have seen a large portion of individuals don't get it for their products and end up skimming just below the radar because they either sale too little to be noticed/worth it or they are lucky in that someone doesn't call them out on it. Below are a couple links which provide some insightful information.The FCC and Open Source HardwareFCC Rules for Kits and SubassembliesIs a Design Change Without A Re-Test Too Risky?

author: TimNJ
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 09, 2017, 05:54:09 am
content: Quote from: dmills on November 08, 2017, 06:52:07 pmThank you. Looks like FCC is the big, unavoidable one, as per the links in trophosphere's post. Interesting that acitycan mandate agency approval? How on earth does that play out and to what extent can that be enforced?Quote from: Tomorokoshi on November 09, 2017, 04:16:57 amThank you for your invaluable insights. It seems being honest with the agencies will probably make your and their lives easier. I know EMC is expensive but yikes $10k is going to be hard to cough up. I suppose this is where crowdfunding might be useful for these types of things. It's easier to justify dropping that sort of cash when you have a better idea about the demand for your product.With EMC mind, I did design in a pretty standard input filter section (X-cap, Y-caps, CM choke). And, working at a power supply manufacturer, I can definitely relate to adding in a bridging cap to reduce conducted EMI but then failing in safety for leakage current. That said, I've never had to actually deal with the agencies myself, so big thanks for your suggestions.Quote from: blueskull on November 09, 2017, 04:26:35 amYikes. Engineering ethics! I guess they're important.Quote from: trophosphere on November 09, 2017, 05:12:34 amVery interesting. I'd like to think I'd never design something in with malicious intent, but can't say that something couldn't slip by because of technical ignorance.I can think of a handful of home-brew devices (which people wound up selling) that definitively don't have FCC approval. That said, maybe they didn't need certification because they were exempt in some way. I was going to ask how people like Dave usually (or might in the future) deal with these issues. Dave is developing the new uSupply which I presume would not be exempt (but maybe not, who knows) and I'm curious how he might go about it.Thanks all!

author: Red Squirrel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2017, 02:04:46 am
content: Quote from: trophosphere on November 09, 2017, 05:12:34 amI'm in Canada but I imagine it might be similar here. Though is there perhaps some kind of insurance that would protect you perhaps? I have a few ideas but my main fear is lawsuits - either safety related, or patent related. I might use a concept that I don't realize is patented. Companies patent the weirdest things that you would not otherwise think that could be patented, like shapes. If I make a few extra hundred bucks on the side selling stuff only to get myself into a 1 or even 100 million dollar lawsuit because I may have overlooked a safety issue then the risk of going in business is just not worth it to me. Though I guess that's when stuff like ULC and CSA comes in, if my product is certified then I am protected right?

author: TimNJ
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2017, 02:31:16 pm
content: Quote from: blueskull on November 10, 2017, 02:11:06 amAs in, you'd bet onnotgetting environmental and EMC certification (and hope no one notices)? I agree, though, when it comes to protecting the end-user (and ultimately yourself, as the designer), safety is nothing to skimp on.That said, in the event that your product starts gaining market traction, going back and getting FCC approval (after the fact) is probably going to raise some eyebrows.And regarding staying away from high voltage electronics...well, that's the very nature of a tube amplifier. Before I get ahead of myself, I think I should focus on making a working finished prototype and then assessing the market to see if it would be worth it to move forward with big expenditures and marketing efforts.Thanks.

author: trophosphere
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2017, 09:52:54 pm
content: Quote from: Red Squirrel on November 10, 2017, 02:04:46 amThere are multiple "types" of business insurances but the two that are likely the most relevant in this case would be Professional liability insurance and Product liability insurance. Professional liability insurance, otherwise known as errors and omissions (E&O) insurance, covers a business against negligence claims due to harm that results from mistakes or failure to perform - e.g. contract work resulting in a defective product/harm. Product liability insurance acts to protect a business due to possible damages caused by one of its products should a lawsuit go through. It may also act to cover the costs of defending a lawsuit but - like all insurance - the type of coverage varies based on the plan, company, and industry.Professional liability insurance and Product liability insurance - depending on the insurance provider - requires a formal review from the insurance company on your business practices and its products. You have to have the right licenses/certifications prior to even getting insurance so if you have a deficit then likely you won't be able to even obtain insurance in the first place. Of course this may vary depending on the insurance provider, state/province, and country.Note that there are often clauses in the insurance agreements themselves which explicitly state that if you have knowingly done something malicious or have omitted something which is standard then the insurance is void and they will not pay out in the event of a lawsuit or required financial compensation from a third party.Think of it like car insurance. To get it you have to have a legal driver's license (at least in the US though I have seen instances where someone has driver's insurance but not a valid driving license). The insurance will have different specifications on how much it will pay you/the third party and in what instances. The insurance can decide not to pay you if you have been found to damage your car on purpose, are negligent in your driving such as driving while intoxicated/falling asleep at the wheel, or you have not been upfront with them during your application (termed Application Dishonesty).

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 10, 2017, 11:51:21 pm
content: Quote from: TimNJ on November 08, 2017, 06:24:02 pmProduct liability insurance. It's usually part of standard business insurance for companies that sell products, assuming your insurance broker has a clue.But this willnotprotect you ifknowinglydo anything that may have resulted in that harm.This is basically covered under "best practice" defence. So lons as you use "best practises" in the design and take adequate safety measures you should be covered.But always remember this, you can be sued atany timeforany thing. Nothing will stop people attempted to sue you if that's what they want to do.QuoteThen you are as covered as you can be.

author: TimNJ
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2017, 01:04:49 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on November 10, 2017, 11:51:21 pmDave, thanks for your comprehensive reply. The "best practice" thing seems a bit wishy-washy to me, as in, it seems hard to nail down what that exactly is. I suppose thereisobjective best practice ways to do things, and those would be called UL/IEC standards. Even if you don't get certified, adhering to recognized standards would probably hold up better in court then "I dunno, thought it looked safe".If this is too much information to disclose openly, forgive me, but do you have product liability insurance for your products? I suppose you might now since you have a more established line of branded products than before, but did you bother before?Thanks again.

author: f5r5e5d
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2017, 01:16:51 am
content: "the best" protection is to have no assets worth the cost of a lawsuit

author: Richard Crowley
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2017, 01:17:39 am
content: There is a universe of difference between a micro-power, battery operated piece of test gear vs. a mains-powered 100s of Volt,Watts of power firebottle amplifier sold into the general consumer marketplace. A universe of difference in potential liability as well.Off-the-shelf OEM "wall-wart" and "line-lump" external power modules are very popular because they already have most of the critical factors worked out for you (and amortized over millions of units). Companies 1000x as big as yours would rather risk customer complaints and use wall-warts vs. putting mains-sourced power supplies inside their products. Of course, a big power amplifier (vacuum-state or solid-state) is not something you can operate from an OEM line-lump power supply.My perception is that getting certification for a mains-powered amplifier (especially with high-voltage) is going to require months or years and a big pile of money.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2017, 01:27:21 am
content: This was particularly nasty here in the US with nongroup health insurance- now they want to bring it back! "Rescission" They would literally try to claw back all the money they had spent on behalf of people with cancer, etc. Which could in some cases be millions of dollars.https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&as_q=rescission+nongroup&as_sitesearch=latimes.comQuote from: trophosphere on November 10, 2017, 09:52:54 pm

author: TimNJ
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2017, 02:02:25 am
content: Quote from: Richard Crowley on November 11, 2017, 01:17:39 amThank you. The more I think of it, the more (practically) infeasible it seems. Though, with a potentially large profit per unit, it is conceivable that a crowdfunding campaign and a few hundred backers could pay those expenses. Ultimately, probably a headache.Thank you all for your wisdom. I will finish off this project "pretending" I'm going to market with it, but it'll really just be practice for the real deal. I have a few projects on the roadmap, so perhaps one of those will be the one that makes it out into the world.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2017, 02:30:19 am
content: Quote from: TimNJ on November 11, 2017, 01:04:49 amIt still seems to be a problem if you're not certified. What happens if you have adhered to the standards, but can't independently prove it? Suddenly, everything depends on your ability to prove this, while the other side has a strong motive to disprove it. What happens if you turn out to be non-compliant over a small detail? Wouldn't that be convenient for anyone disputing your compliance?Mind you, I understand the issue and it seems silly that building and selling a chair is trivial, but selling some fairly simple electronics is a lot more complicated.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2017, 03:40:48 am
content: Tim,One way to address a good chunk of the problem you pointed out, and substantially reduce your liability, I would imagine, is to have a functional power interlock. Have a switch which only supplies power while the door is closed.it be impossible to run your amplifier with the cabinet door open.That will remind your users that dangerous voltages lurk inside. Should a user be dumb enough to defeat your interlock then they are much more on their own than otherwise, legally, I would imagine.Quote from: TimNJ on November 08, 2017, 06:24:02 pmIt couldn't hurt with UL certification too.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 11, 2017, 03:42:40 am
content: Quote from: TimNJ on November 11, 2017, 01:04:49 amIt's easy."Best practice" is basically "best effort", i.e. you took reasonable step to ensure safety.Simply documenting that you considered risks and took reasonable measures to counteract them is sufficient.It's basically anything but knowing endangerment. i.e. if you know something is unsafe and you did nothing about it and it kills someone, you are screwed.This actually extends to employees of companies, they can have personal culpability.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 11, 2017, 03:46:00 am
content: Quote from: Richard Crowley on November 11, 2017, 01:17:39 amI know a guy in Oz that developed a switch in a mains power cord.Yes, an actual switch in series with a power cord (a "green" product for shutting off standby power in hard to reach places.It took almost 2 years to get to market and he got taken to the cleaners by certification companies.

author: Red Squirrel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2017, 03:49:28 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on November 10, 2017, 11:51:21 pmThis alone is a huge issue with the legal system. It seems even if you take every possible due diligence in the world you can STILL become a victim of a lawsuit. For a small profile company this is basically life ending. I guess that's where the liability insurance would come in.With all the certifications and stuff required, seems to me the system is really designed to make it near impossible for a small businesses to get started in manufacturing though. Kind of sad really. The worse is the fact that they don't care about foreign stuff, so people can sell you stuff that's not certified through Ebay/Amazon and it's fair game, but as a local resident you cannot do the same.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2017, 03:55:10 am
content: Quote from: Red Squirrel on November 11, 2017, 03:49:28 amIn some cases, that's actually the problem. Someone with deep pockets can squeeze the life out of a smaller party, even if they've done nothing wrong. If your money runs out, you're done for, and no cure no pay lawyers won't always be very interested to take on huge legal teams. They need to see a fair chance of success.Even though it's not terribly common, it's not quite unheard of either.

author: TimNJ
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2017, 04:02:16 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on November 11, 2017, 03:33:29 amWow. Fascinating. We do a lot of pre-compliance testing at work, but always submit to an EMC lab for approval. Say I was to forgo EMC certification and did in-house testing that showed reasonable margin (-10dB for ex.). Is the only way to get in legal trouble if the FCC tested the product and found that itdoesn'tmeet the requirements? Alternatively, if they find that it is below the allowable limit, can you still get in trouble for not getting an official certificate?

author: TimNJ
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2017, 04:09:23 am
content: Quote from: cdev on November 11, 2017, 03:40:48 amThanks for the advice! I think I've seen a similar trick used in a product or two.I suppose the take-away is: It's impossible to protect yourself with 100% certainty, but you can definitely take steps to convince a hypothetical jury that you took the necessary measures to protect the end user.I'm from NJ. I play in a band with a few of my college friends but nothing big-time.

author: trophosphere
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2017, 04:13:13 am
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on November 11, 2017, 03:55:10 amOne avenue to explore would be the possibility of getting a company to license your project and thus leave the nitty-gritty of manufacturing and certification/paperwork to them to fulfill. Sure you would make less per unit sold of your widget and you have less control over certain modifications but that may be a way to see your project be introduced to the masses without having to directly contend with all these regulations. Of course you should still try to design with safety in mind - still gotta pay attention to the whole ethics thing - but your best effort should be sufficient in this regard.This idea should be taken with a grain of salt as I'm sure if the lawyers wanted to they could get to you but this helps spread the liability and introduces the concept of the Swiss Cheese Model of Safety: All layers are not expected to be 100% full-proof (hence the holes), but with enough layers, things that could get past one or two layers should get caught in the others.Examples:SeeedStudioSparkfun

author: Red Squirrel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2017, 04:20:03 am
content: One thing I always wondered too is if you sell your products as a "preassembled hobby kit". Essentially you sell it with your intention being that it's other electronics enthusasts that will buy it for the parts or for experimenting, and not for production use. If someone does use it for production use and it fails then your defense is that it was not actually meant to be used as such.Of course by doing this you would pretty much have to rely 100% on word of mouth to get actual users to buy it knowing that it's *really* meant for production.

author: TimNJ
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2017, 04:35:50 am
content: Quote from: Red Squirrel on November 11, 2017, 03:49:28 amI had a similar thought about small businesses trying to enter the tech/electronics industry. I think if you look around the forum, other blogs, Youtube, etc., you will find lots of people creating very interesting and (excuse the buzzword)disruptivethings. Today, an ordinary person has access to cheap lab equipment, powerful software tools, cheap manufacturing, logistics, etc...but they almost certainly do not have access to $50k to throw at getting safety/EMC certs. I think it is important that products are still safe and adhere to EMI and environmental regulations, but the barrier to entry is still waaay too high for a single person with a good idea to get off the ground. And I feel like that ultimately kind of stunts innovation/competition and just maintains the status quo. Not sure what a solution to that could be.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2017, 02:34:40 pm
content: It's not a trick!Its a common sensesafety interlock, as basic as it gets when high voltages could be there.Also, make a small bright red label on the back which states the obvious"there are dangerous voltages inside, so power is disabled so you can not run the amplifier with the door open"Maybe have warnings in several different languages. English, Chinese, Spanish, Hindi?Also, have a fun circular logo picturing a gleeful and mischievous looking child holding a screwdriver with a slash through it! You could even add a buzzer or bright red light.Open door, power goes off, alarm goes on. Simple and basic.Then nobody is likely to be using your amp with the back door open unless they are either proficient in electronics enough to disable it, or really really stupid, or both.Its common sense. Enclose the area where HV may be present and make it quite difficult to get at, especially for a child and you will likely be lawsuit proof.Quote from: TimNJ on November 11, 2017, 04:09:23 am

author: TimNJ
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2017, 04:09:34 pm
content: Quote from: cdev on November 11, 2017, 02:34:40 pmPlease excuse my terminology then. By "trick" I mean "method" or "way to solve the problem".However, after some discussion here, bringing thisparticularproduct to market does not seem viable, at least for me, with somewhat limited funds. Since I will be the only owner of the amplifier, and I designed it, I can be a little more lax on how I go about safety. But I appreciate all of the insight and suggestions.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2017, 04:18:38 pm
content: You should try to sell your amp, if its good.I think that if you did all those things, chances are the various gatekeepers of certifications would likely make your attainment of those certifications as affordable as possible because they appreciated the extra foresight put into solving the safety problem. Plus, because you put the extra effort into the safety aspect, you would be lawsuit-proof.Because as Dave said, the key issue is addressed.If some idiot still did defeat the interlock and got injured, they would only have themselves to blame.

author: iampoor
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2017, 03:12:09 pm
content: FCC and EMC testing for a tube amp with a linear supplyou and no digital electronics? I think you will find that the vast majorit of boutique tube amplifier companies are strictly following "best practice" guidelines and not having NY issues.....Of course your mileage may vary.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 14, 2017, 03:13:49 am
content: Your product is the kind of "old school" device that hams wish would come back, because they typically emit almost no EMI (unless the amp is unstable, which should be easy to quench.)

author: f5r5e5d
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 14, 2017, 06:06:49 am
content: if you don't have a clock/oscillator circuit including sw ps over 9 khz then I don't think FCC gets involved until you're building RF amplifiers