Paul Horowitz: "The Search for Extraterrestrial Intelligence" - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Jope
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 19, 2016, 07:52:39 pm
content: Paul Horowitz giving a talk at Google about SETI:.

author: Yansi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 19, 2016, 11:06:17 pm
content: Wow, very nice video. Everyone should watch!

author: RobertoLG
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 19, 2016, 11:12:10 pm
content: thanks, whatching right now

author: Stonent
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 19, 2016, 11:22:32 pm
content: I'd be happy with a search for terrestrial intelligence.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 20, 2016, 12:39:22 am
content: Quote from: RobertoLG on April 19, 2016, 11:12:10 pmThere goes my day!

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 20, 2016, 08:47:21 am
content: He looks to be in great shape for a man of 73.

author: StuUK
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 20, 2016, 12:08:05 pm
content: We should all email Adam Savage and ask him where Paul's "cool thing" is

author: Yansi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 21, 2016, 08:23:33 am
content: Lol, I've thought exactly about that

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 21, 2016, 10:57:56 am
content: Quote1. it seems a flawed or at least risky assumption that whoever we may find will be kind and nice to us. Before we build up capabilities to defend against unknown and potentially far advanced beings, lying low isn't a bad strategy;2. looking around, there is pretty apparent evidence that we can use more human intelligence than ET intelligence. People voting for professional politicians who ruin everyone's life year after year, the reality shows, Hollywood, ...

author: Mechanical Menace
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 21, 2016, 11:04:07 am
content: Quote from: dannyf on April 21, 2016, 10:57:56 amToo late. We've been broadcasting our existence for over a hundred years. Only way to stop that would be to stop high powered terrestrial broadcasts like TV and radio and switch totally over to the much lower power satellite equivalents entirely. And then it'd be 5 years before Alpha Centauri stops getting our reruns.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 21, 2016, 11:09:58 am
content: For those who haven't watched it, do yourself favour!

author: digsys
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 21, 2016, 12:57:59 pm
content: Well, that was a worthwhile use of time. We're so lucky (us oldies anyway), that we've been around from pretty much the beginning to now.Some of my earliest memories were cleaning valve contacts at Adelaide Uni's CDC6400 Fortran computer and lubricating punch card writers / readers.But as an interesting and incredible journey as it's been, some "facts" remain -- We will never find life on other planets (ones that you can communicate intelligently with, not amoeba :-) )- We will not be moving to Mars (and unlikely to have a self-sustaining colony there)- There will be no time travel (go back in time and fix things etc .. imagine Trump getting his hands on that :-) )- We will be extinct soon enough (definitely under a few 100 yrs, a very short timeline for the age of the universe X distances)It was interesting while it lasted :-) ... have a nice dayYMMV

author: StuUK
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 21, 2016, 01:11:59 pm
content: Quote from: digsys on April 21, 2016, 12:57:59 pmHalf glass empty then.....

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 21, 2016, 01:29:47 pm
content: Quote from: digsys on April 21, 2016, 12:57:59 pmCorrect. The distances make communications impossible.However, I think it's quite likely we'll eventually pick up some sort of signal.QuoteI think that's actually inevitable. Assuming we don't blow ourselves up first.

author: chris_leyson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 21, 2016, 01:33:27 pm
content: I think the whole idea of SETI is technically flawed given that the free space path loss to the nearest star is huge.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 21, 2016, 01:46:22 pm
content: Quote from: chris_leyson on April 21, 2016, 01:33:27 pmMaybe you should try watching the video.

author: KD0CAC John
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 21, 2016, 02:46:52 pm
content: Seemed to me that Paul's favorite thing to do is build the gear and SETI was secondary .Not that that is a bad thing

author: Carrington
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 21, 2016, 03:29:11 pm
content: Quote from: AcHmed99 on April 21, 2016, 03:17:25 pmThis man (José Luís Cordeiro) is even more optimistic.http://www.cordeiro.org/For more info, Youtube is your friend.

author: GEuser
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 21, 2016, 03:52:23 pm
content: As all upper class and so called "unique" pompous species that seem to gather or think that they be the so special creations of the Universe actually turn blind with their own sense of importance of the so special "their" EARth that it alludes them either through stupidity or insanity or deliberate deceit that Alien are already here and have been for a very long time ! .The Reality of knowledge what Alien have done and Are doing will permanently damage all thought on practically All subjects especially as since no one is allowed to go anywhere , anytime .The above is not a opinion , ,> they should be very very Scared < that is a opinion .

author: retrolefty
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 21, 2016, 10:01:34 pm
content: Quote from: AcHmed99 on April 21, 2016, 07:59:44 pmI want some of it!

author: chris_leyson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 21, 2016, 10:51:52 pm
content: I watched the video, more bad science, Shannon and Nyqist never get a mention and I think Arecibo got 78dB gain not 90dB, SETI from an RF perspective, it's a waste of time.

author: digsys
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 21, 2016, 10:56:42 pm
content: Lets look at it another way - and include the laws of probability -Assume a VERY low probability of "neighbours" living 100-200 light years away. That means that EVERY signal takes 100-200 yrs for EACH trip !!So our fancy laser comms, from ~5 yrs ago, still needs 95-195 yrs to get there !! And hopefully the aliens aren't in the shower at the time.Plus, probability says we have to have at least 100-200 signals in other directions, to cover the area we're targetting. Plus it needs to be continious for that time.So, we've been "radio active" for let's say 200yrs, so we have a 200 yr window (The first 195 yrs are weak scattered signals, so probability says they're hosed).So we have a 200yr window in a ~5Billion year Universe (to date). Life may well have started somewhere in that time, and lets assume they had "intelligence".There's no probability model that says they were SMARTER than us and survived LONGER than 200-500 yrs. Maybe WE'RE the best an "intelligent" life model can achieve.Horrible thought :-)So now we look 5Billions years in the future. Right now, if things continue as they are, we're only good for 200-300 yrs before extinction.So at a 1 million to 1 probability, in a 200 yr window of 10 Billion years, our 150 yr signal reaches an "intelligent" life on our very nearest neighbours, AND they reply,there's no one left here to answer the phone !! <hello> <hello> <we have take-away> <hello> ?

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 22, 2016, 01:19:27 am
content: I'm a little more reserved about what is possible and not possible.We carry technology around in our pockets today that was not only impossible 100 years ago, but completely unconceivable. Go back 200 years and it's closer to the Stone age than today.If we want to preface statements with "With today's technology ..." then much of what has been said is valid, but I wouldn't want to keep my thinking constrained like that for the future, especially when you look at therateof technological development.

author: Richard Crowley
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 22, 2016, 01:42:24 am
content: I share the world-view that we (Earth) have made rather a dog's breakfast of things and we are under quarantine. Beings from other planets are are smarter than us and have no desire to establish contact with such a planet of fools. If there are any extra-terrestrials who communicate or arrive here, they are the kind of people your mother warned about. You don't want to hang around with THEM.

author: KD0CAC John
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 22, 2016, 02:08:52 am
content: The universe is infinite , at least generally speaking from our/hearths perspective and so are the possibilities , of course constrained by the laws of physics , not all of which we have nailed down in our knowledge .So it seem that most what has been suggested here [ I may missed ] is the possibility that planets just like , and or close to us exist .Kinda like here it takes all kinds and out planet is not infinite , so our kinds are limited .But back to the point of the thread / video , I thought that the movie contact with Jody Foster was kinda close with what theories we have about jumping past the speed of light issue , and not accounting for what ever personalities are at the other end of that trip - who knows what the neighbors are like , good & bad neighborhoods .This is one of the few reasons , good ones anyway , that living massively longer lives to get a broader glimpse of what the possibilities may be?

author: AF6LJ
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 22, 2016, 02:53:13 am
content: The whole idea we would be able to pick up radio signals from a civilization even from the closest star is is silly.1. When you compute the path loss between here and the next star Someone on the closest star would need to broadcasting a terawatt level signal for it to be as strong as the Voyager signal is now. (that is to use a technical term; God Damned Weak)2. Even we are moving away from signal formats that are easy to detect, this is only a hundred years after the discovery of radio. So the window of easy to detect signals is rather small.3. Using our technology as an example; We are getting really good at detecting and demodulating low power broadband signals. It stands to reason our neighbors would have followed a trend of using less power for communications since it would be a waste of resources.This is based on our own trends in communications, and I submit that SETI is a waste of money time and resources at this stage in our development.Besides;you don't really think that IF they heard a signal we would hear about it?I think not; most of the people on this rock haven't the mental horsepower to handle it. Again look into our own history as a species...

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 22, 2016, 03:34:36 am
content: Quote from: AF6LJ on April 22, 2016, 02:53:13 amYou should watching the video. If you had you might take issue with what he says, but you wouldn't post what you just said.

author: AF6LJ
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 22, 2016, 03:58:44 am
content: Quote from: coppice on April 22, 2016, 03:34:36 amI have been watching the video.For one thing his example of receiving a signal from a hundred light years away uses a huge dish as an antenna to send the signal, not the kinds of antennas used on this planet for communications.Go back to the beginning and see...Tomorrow I will point to the time index in the video where he sets up the example.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 22, 2016, 06:11:38 am
content: Quote from: AF6LJ on April 22, 2016, 03:58:44 amHe makes it very clear that he is not trying to pick up the leakage from communication of aliens with each other. He's looking for signals specifically sent by an alien race to contact other alien races, like us. He's expecting the signals to be pretty distinct, because the goal of the aliens would be to make them readily distinguishable from anything natural. These aliens would have to be pretty well motivated to finance this kind of transmission, but he shows that the resources needed are not ludicrous.

author: scatha
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 22, 2016, 10:06:58 am
content: Quote from: coppice on April 22, 2016, 06:11:38 amPretty much. The assumption of both the Soviet and US reports which kicked off the SETI program was that ET would be using very powerful beacons - transmissions localized in either frequency or time, probably in a frequency band which limited galactic and quantum noise at the receiver (the 'water hole'). Both CW and pulsed transmissions allow close to optimal detection from an SNR perspective, and have other advantages - the Doppler shift on CW sources allows you to exclude terrestrial sources, and the frequency dispersion of pulsed transmissions allow you to range a transmission.Our own transmissions are detectable at a considerable distance subject to modest assumptions - if operating in non-switched mode the Arecibo planetary radar is detectable at 1000ly+ and the DMEWS radar system at a few 10's of ly. If you want to get crazy, some of the proposals for gravitational lensing get you better than 100dB of gain.I'm a bit bemused about the knockers of SETI - it doesn't consume many resources, and at the very least it has lead to some pretty cool advances in signal processing and detection theory. The pulse detection stuff also has the potential of revealing some interesting radio astronomy.

author: Mechanical Menace
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 22, 2016, 01:40:14 pm
content: Quote from: digsys on April 21, 2016, 10:56:42 pmIn fiction we've dreamed of coming across races that were ancient when we first started walking upright, an interstellar group of greybeards who have been there, done that, worn the t-shirt, and can guide us along our first real steps into the cosmos. At worst we've considered we're the only intelligent species in our galaxy. We don't seem to have played with the idea that the universe is only just old enough to have the conditions to allow such life and that any other intelligent life out there may only have had the chance to get as far as we have at best.

author: AF6LJ
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 22, 2016, 02:20:26 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on April 22, 2016, 06:11:38 amIt seems to me that broadcasting one's existence is a dangerous action; you are drawing attention to a civilization that is technologically advanced and has resources.Leaving that civilization open to predictors.Not such a good idea...

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 22, 2016, 02:30:05 pm
content: Quote from: AF6LJ on April 22, 2016, 02:20:26 pmDid you mean predators? Some people seem to be afraid of their own shadows. Don't you think another star system would a long way to go for lunch?

author: Mechanical Menace
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 22, 2016, 02:36:26 pm
content: Quote from: AF6LJ on April 22, 2016, 02:20:26 pmWhat resources would we have compared to what would be available to something that could actually get here in a reasonable time frame? There's nothing special about the elements available in this solar system. Why risk the long journey and possibilities of serious losses to get resources you can get without a fight from a neighbouring, uninhabited solar system?

author: Wytnucls
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 22, 2016, 03:05:02 pm
content: Religion. We have a fairly advanced civilization and still haven't shaken most of our superstitions off.Theirs may be governed by a theocracy, eager to colonize our world and convert its inhabitants. Look out for the first missionaries.

author: AF6LJ
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 22, 2016, 03:33:41 pm
content: Quote from: Mechanical Menace on April 22, 2016, 02:36:26 pmIn answer to this post and the one above;I am not really sure I do make a couple of assumptions...1. the elements are more or less evenly distributed through our universe.2. Organic compounds would be likewise evenly distributed through the universe, except in arias where high radiation exists, some organic compounds would be less likely to be found due to high levels of ionizing radiation.3. A predatory species might be more interested in expanding to arias where available food can be easily had. (Note; I said expanding) there is no assurance that advanced species wouldn't behave like our Sharks; eating everything in their path.4. Given #3 we would be the resource of value. Yes the "To Serve Man" concept is just as valid as a civilization dedicated to the preservation of the diversity of life in the universe would be.Finally it is very difficult to NOT anthropomorphize ET; sadly this is all we have to work with.

author: StuUK
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 22, 2016, 03:38:39 pm
content: Quote from: Wytnucls on April 22, 2016, 03:05:02 pmWere did you see that?

author: Mechanical Menace
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 22, 2016, 04:41:17 pm
content: Quote from: AF6LJ on April 22, 2016, 03:33:41 pmI never really thought of 3 or 4. I guess there is a chance they may not even consider farming and only be interested in "wild game." Not sure how such a species would move beyond the "sharpened sticks" level of tech though.I've also never considered the possibility we'd be palatable, or even a chemically viable food source or vice versa.QuoteI actually try not to. As much as I like sci fi I've always thought the "take something from earth and change its colour" approach to design.

author: JoeN
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 23, 2016, 07:22:48 am
content: Hmmm. One thing I learned from this talk is that there is an OSHPark for custom IC design:https://www.mosis.com/what-is-mosis(with regard to a chip they had built:http://frank.harvard.edu/~howard/pulsenet/)I wonder what it cost them to have these ICs built?Quote from: dannyf on April 21, 2016, 10:57:56 amGood point, but except for that one big intentional Arecibo transmission, the vast majority of this is reading, not writing, at this point. No risk in looking around, in fact it might be a good idea for exactly the reasons you mention.

author: JoeN
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 23, 2016, 07:36:28 am
content: Quote from: AF6LJ on April 22, 2016, 02:53:13 amThe whole point is to detect intentional, directional signals. Not inadvertent ones from low power alien Wi-Fi signalsNobody thinks we are going to detect that. Not even you, apparently. So everyone agrees. Except the fictional people you imagine are trying to detect it. But they don't really exist. No, they don't.Did no one actually just watch the video? Or was it just a matter of not understanding it?

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 23, 2016, 09:15:06 am
content: Quote from: AF6LJ on April 22, 2016, 02:53:13 amHe specially says it's not really possible to pick up their regular communications (i.e. non-deliberately deep space aimed)QuoteThere is absolutely no way a signal could be received and it covered up. Nerds get too excited, they couldn't help themselves. First thing they will do is tell other groups so they can confirm it (and claim first dibs credit of course). It would spread like wild fire before any suites could be called in.

author: AF6LJ
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 23, 2016, 12:21:54 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on April 23, 2016, 09:15:06 amI went back to the beginning and saw where he said it is not possible to hear normal communications (as we know it).It is still such a shot in the dark, I think one would be better off spending their money on lottery tickets.I see the romantic aspect of searching for ET it's cool to dream the (almost) impossible dream..Returning to a more practical view of this;I think that ET most likely has found the key to a deeper understanding of how the universe works and has found the way to make interstellar travel over short time spans possible. If ET has in fact overcame the C barrier; one would have to conclude their communications technology would be likewise as advanced.It's fun to speculate.....

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 23, 2016, 02:53:36 pm
content: Quote from: AF6LJ on April 23, 2016, 12:21:54 pmIt's also pointless to speculate when you can actually do experiments and possiblyproveit.Even negative results have meaningful scientific value.

author: GEuser
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 24, 2016, 03:56:34 am
content: Quote from: AF6LJ on April 22, 2016, 02:53:13 amReturning to a more practical view of this;I hope those quotes work out right ...All they got to do is go and ask some people out there in the world , entertainers? politicians and all sorts , some entertainers even have video's and the associated lyrics to indicate where they think they are from , they are real in what they have been programmed with , some religions like Scientology (only mentioned first as they actually claim they be from somewhere else, in other old stories there are comments of "not from this world etc) and other types of things that everyone seems to miss .So if lets say they spent $10 million bucks (10mill is absolutely a pittance) for getting a group of shrinks , lie detector people (people that have the ability to suss out a lie) , behavioral analysts , and people like me with a big stick and sent that group or groups with military assistance or at least a presence (as a threat to imply seriousness) to interview or at the very least question just what some of those video's and lyrics propaganda came from or is from , that itself would explain that Alien is already here as mentioned previously .The above would imply its all harmless fun for the propagandists , until one associated things like the Hitlers and the likes (but they go right back in time or Hister y) , recently , Anders Breivik and the Hobart incident and the likes and many others , Programming , the reverse of the movie Avatar .And all the movies suggest the Zombie Apocalypse is to come , not right now of course but later Ha Ha Ha Ha ... imo of course .They "are here!" .

author: AF6LJ
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 24, 2016, 12:17:57 pm
content: GEuser;now we are getting far of field and into an aria which for reasons too numerous to list here I prefer not to go into.With that said..I am confident we are not alone in this universe.

author: JoeN
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 24, 2016, 07:58:15 pm
content: Quote from: AF6LJ on April 24, 2016, 12:17:57 pmI am confident we don't know which way is up versus down yet.

author: AF6LJ
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 24, 2016, 09:21:37 pm
content: Quote from: JoeN on April 24, 2016, 07:58:15 pmI would have to agree.

author: GEuser
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 25, 2016, 04:32:40 am
content: Quote from: AF6LJ on April 24, 2016, 12:17:57 pmYes ok , i will claim i understand that this stuff is too far off field for the "we" and of course that can't included me .The thread is supposedly about Extraterrestrial Intelligence or Alien not just the video imo , searching , no one wants to actually know they are already here and have been for a very long time , its better apparently to keep looking up and "out there" than actually looking at a lower level ie:here , what part in the post where i mention FEAR did not one understand , fear can do some funny things especially to sight (the look away syndrome) .And don't get me wrong sue i'm not on your back , its just i thought i would pop up a practical example if they were serious about the Alien that would/could be a starting scenario and the flow on from there would kick start a natural and obvious trend ie: turning all those gadgets looking out back to looking in! .Cu ...

author: AF6LJ
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 28, 2016, 02:43:35 pm
content: Quote from: GEuser on April 25, 2016, 04:32:40 amI get it.....I am not sure if ET is actually here, there has not been enough physical evidence of this.

author: GEuser
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 29, 2016, 01:49:58 am
content: Quote from: AF6LJ on April 28, 2016, 02:43:35 pmGood i'm glad one get's it ..As they are in "Parallel" with Earth and that is the design to keep themselves hidden and superior is just one reason there is no actual evidence one can poke with a stick (spear it) (spirit) , they hide in among the primates , just like those scientists experimenting or evaluating consciousness on the Gorillas and other primates (stay back or we get tore apart) , that is just one small example , they fool everyone by long time social programming of awhatis , like the superstitions and seeings and miracles and that also is a big list so therefore it becomes quite normal and easy to hide and do their own experiments of all sorts especially Genetics , then comes consciousness (without a base housing what's to experiment on?) and the list goes on and on .One "can" poke with a stick the current experiments and programming that are housed like the mentioned entertainers and more but everyone seems to think? they are normal , Bart Simpsons voice fully believes after its ded it's going to be housed in a new housing , wouldn't it be ironic if it still had bart's voice as a default ha ha ha ha , there are heaps , another small example> why has no-one asked the deli lama "where are you actually from , how you get here and where do you go (when ded) and do you actually remember anything at all ?" , no one i have heard/seen on the Tv has actually confronted the deli lama yet , everyone takes it all for granted and real and a truth , there are heaps .Tricks of the Light , vision interference , setups , plenty of murders , eradications and engineering all to be seen only some look . all imo of course .Tapping on the keyboard is now over , i'm a good Monkey (a generic primate) .

author: AF6LJ
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 29, 2016, 02:34:25 am
content: Quote from: GEuser on April 29, 2016, 01:49:58 amAs I say in a related discussion about another life form who may have created everything as we know it....The lack of evidence for existence is not evidence of non-existence.I do believe as it was said in my favorite television series of all time."Life Here Began Out There"

author: GEuser
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 29, 2016, 09:41:19 am
content: AF6LJ , I do not feel like giving the Horowitz any more credence in this thread by participating here , i'll certainly agree with most of what you have typed for sure , see i still am on about that looking up and finding is not the real proof and absolutely no one seems to be poking around in the right spots down here .Also the other included debates? of just how sinister Alien actually are not compared to the they be good and saving the planet/human race side and then the 3rd side of they don't exist at all and the 4th side of G_D will save everything and the 5th side like the 5th element movie , a character out of times past before Bc or the common era to my understanding pointed all that out with a comment of something like "What one thinks hears or see's is not the real world , the world is a illusion" and many other sayings , and it's last dying words were something like "What more do you want" to whoever was there waiting (probably a Parasite) .I'll be straight here , all those bastards knew about them BUT did notactually say(as they also knew future writings to come) that Nasty Lying Dirty Manipulating Murdering Alien Filth are here at Earth , Unhuman , that's the issue i deal with with a lot of those so called past bullshit profits .It seems Nostradamus got close but like all or most they get "changed" , others like Socrates and he had to Die (look what it was actually talking about with a now different view) , and way way back All the Time over and over , History has been manipulated to be different imo .So , i'm out and be hangin about .

author: AF6LJ
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 29, 2016, 01:59:30 pm
content: Well we know there are Lies, Damned Lies and then there is history. I've read Nostradamus and I tend to go with the conservative interpretations.You touched on salvation of the Human Race; that is in our hands, and if we don't get off this rock and start colonizing other rocks in this solar system we won't have that capability in three or four generations, due to essential resource depletion.We need to stop killing each other and work on planning for the future.