difference between rebadged scopes and "original" counterparts? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: JPortici
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2016, 04:50:53 pm
content: It is known that "budget" test equipment from premium brands is usually a rebadged product, designed and manufactured by a "less premium" brand.The usual examplesKeysight 1000 series scopes vs rigol ds1000 seriesLecroy wavesurfer 3000 vs siglent sds 3000but is there any difference between the two besides a different paint job and -of course- price tag?a better firmware? better accessories?

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2016, 08:37:19 pm
content: Several.In some cases the FW is different and in others only the GUI and external labeling is changed with re-brands.Often the "top of the range" in a series is only OEM and the re-badges have less memory.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2016, 05:23:46 am
content: Quote from: JPortici on July 06, 2016, 04:50:53 pmBe careful, the WaveSurfer 3000 is *NOT* a rebadge, it's hardware has been designed by Siglent with the help and under the control of LeCroy, and the software on that scope is solely developed by LeCroy (Siglent can't touch it, which considering their track record in firmware was a very wise decision). Siglent can sell the scope under their own brand in China (where it is sold as SDS3000) only, LeCroy has pretty much the rest of the world.Such agreements aren't new for LeCroy, which has already done them in the past (i.e. with Iwatsu, which made the LeCroy WaveRunner LT, WaveRunner 2LT and WavePro 900 scopes hardware and which were sold as Iwatsu in Japan).Also, while the WaveSurfer 3000 is notably cheaper than say the Keysight DSOX3000T, with a starting price of $3000 it is hardly in the "budget" range.The rebadges in LeCroy's portfolio are the low-end Series WaveAce (all Siglent SDS1000xxx Series scopes), WaveJet (rebadged Iwatsu DS-5000 Series scopes) and the WaveStation Series of AWGs (again all Siglent SDG1000/SDG5000 rebadges). Because they are rebadges, there's no agreement for the OEM to limit sales of the original product to a certain area.QuoteWith rebadges, as the term implies it's the ODM hardware just carrying the big brand label. Differences are generally limited to mere optics, i.e. different paint jobs on the housing, and a different color scheme in the UI. Deviations from the original product are usually very limited to keep costs down, and cost is pretty much the main reason a big brand goes for rebagded products.

author: billfernandez
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2016, 06:15:09 am
content: The difference can be whatever the two companies negotiate them to be. In some cases it will be just the second company's nameplate on the first company's "white label" product. In other cases it will be upgraded components, or more careful testing, or adding a feature or two, or an unique configuration. In other cases one company (e.g. Apple) will design a product and have a second company (e.g. Foxconn) manufacture it. Etc.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2016, 06:36:16 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on July 07, 2016, 06:24:00 amR&D costs.What makes more money? Spend a year or two in development or start selling tomorrow.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2016, 07:13:57 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on July 07, 2016, 06:24:00 amBecause entry level and/or low BW units are not their core business.They (and other brands) just want you as part of theirfamilyfor the chance of future sales of their high end products.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2016, 07:23:47 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on July 07, 2016, 06:24:00 amHow big do you think their production volumes are? The DS1054Z is a hit product, and even those have only reached a few tens of thousands, according to ads you can see proclaiming this as really big volume. Most instruments above the most basic DMMs are made in relatively small numbers, by the standards of most electronics production. People like Siglent are probably only achieving big enough volumes to make their production economic by making scopes for other people. Dividing production up further just increases everyone's costs.

author: Tepe
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2016, 08:35:34 am
content: Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on July 07, 2016, 05:23:46 am" hardware has been designed by Siglent with the help and under the control of LeCroy" sounds like marketing copy. As for the software, maybe it was done solely by LeCroy, but then again, it's not cheap to write software so why do it from scratch; get Siglent's source code and customise it is a more realistic proposition and much more plausible.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2016, 09:10:12 am
content: Conjecture on the merits or otherwise of LeCroys involvement in the development of the 3000 series is a little pointless for a product that's been on the market for ~2 years.Here's the thread:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent's-new-products-sds3000-series-oscilloscopes/

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2016, 09:38:13 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on July 07, 2016, 06:24:00 amBig brands don't do it because it's not cost effective. Setting up your own production facilities and designing products for the lowest possible price requires investing a lot of money and ressources up-front, when they can just buy cheap products made to order from existing outfits?This is even more true for LeCroy, which pretty much is a brand bought for its capable mid-range and high-end scopes. It's is offering a wide range of mid-range and high-end scopes which are developed in-house, and that has and still is LeCroy's core business where they make the big bucks from. They know very well that engaging in the low-end is a race to the bottom, especially today with all the cheap Chinese kit. Why should they waste valuable ressources that are better spent on high value stuff when buying rebades does the job?

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2016, 09:46:02 am
content: Quote from: Tepe on July 07, 2016, 08:35:34 amIt might sound this way to you but it's simply a fact. Just try to buy a SDS3000 outside China, you'll have a hard time to even get a grey import, let alone one from an official Siglent reseller.And as I said, these co-operations aren't a new concept for LeCroy, that's pretty much what they've done most throughout their existence (first on components, later whole scopes).QuoteNo, not really. Aside from the not so small problem that Siglent's software is crap, Siglent also has zero experience in writing firmware for a complex mid-range scope. In addition, the WS3000 is a Windows-based X-Stream scope, i.e. the software is full of LeCroy IP.You can't get that by rewriting shitty small-scale embedded software for bottom-of-the-barrel scopes (if you want to see how that would turn out, just look at the Rigol DS6000, which offers entry-level performance and functionality at a upper mid-range price). Plus the mid-range market isn't as forgiving as the entry-level/hobbyist market (where buyers are generally more tolerant of bugs and support issues), in this price class customers expect a reliable and mature product with a good set of advanced functionality.And thanks to keeping Siglent away from the WS3000/SDS3000 software (Siglent only gets the protected firmware blob to flash into its SDS3000) it was a very mature product when it came out in 2014. That means the SDS3000 is probably the only Siglent scope that ever came to market without major firmware flaws. And probably will be for a while.

author: H.O
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2016, 12:12:45 pm
content: Here we go again....

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2016, 11:09:13 am
content: Quote from: JPortici on July 06, 2016, 04:50:53 pmThe two examples you mentioned are not necessarily true rebranding - i.e., both Keysight and Lecroy gave inputs (or were involved otherwise) in the product development and may have given some sauce to the firmware of their own models. In the Keysight case, differences go even further given they are physically different.I think that a better example is Lecroy's Waveace low-end oscilloscope product line, where some models are also branded as Gratten/Atten and the ODM is Siglent. Reports mention there are no differences in firmware and, consequently, bugs (referencehere.

author: Tepe
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2016, 01:27:51 pm
content: Quote from: H.O on July 07, 2016, 12:12:45 pmDon't worry - I have read the thread tautech linked to

author: saturation
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 09, 2016, 01:53:04 pm
content: OEM are contracted to do X, and the final product with the 'brand' name will be X+n, regardless of the product, DSO, DMMs, hand tools etc.,. The amount of n really varies from product to product. DSO aside, the thread on Dave's eeblog meter, a rebranded Brymen is a test case of what rebranding entails with much info public on the forums. Even with n ~ 0, Dave has to at least provide customer support and quality control once the units are shipped from OEM to him. There are other examples on eevblog threads, one with a stark difference in quality are the UniT DMMs sold as Amprobe DMMs.

author: Sbampato12
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 12, 2016, 07:50:37 pm
content: There is the aftersales differences too. The 'different' support, lifetime, support, assistance...Those are regularly better (or we expect to) with the most famous brands.But sometimes, even that doesn't make big diffences (hobby, for example)