Future of analog electronics - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: goldcoin
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 11, 2016, 04:39:39 pm
content: Will there be jobs for analog circuit designers for the next, say, 10+ years or will there be only jobs to repair old analog circuits ? Will digital electronics take over all information processing in the near future as processors become more powerful and cheap ? Is analog electronics still worth learning ? What is the demand for analog specialists compared to that of digital designers (in your country) ?

author: MosherIV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 11, 2016, 04:43:58 pm
content: QuoteYESIf anything, the digital designers are having to learn all about high freq analogue behavior.There are still lots of sub fields of electronics that are purely analogue eg PSUs (both linear and switch mode), RF to name but 2.There will be fewer design jobs and they will/are becoming more specialised but then what electronics design job is not specialised.

author: ebclr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 11, 2016, 05:34:17 pm
content: While humans and nature are still on analog space, the jobs will be there

author: Jay_Diddy_B
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 11, 2016, 05:46:42 pm
content: Hi,Digital is just a small subset of analog.To quote Bob Widlar, analog guru, 'Any fool can count to one'.I might be biased.Jay_Diddy_B

author: rx8pilot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 11, 2016, 05:57:44 pm
content: I thought I was learning digital electronics until I dealt with high speed digital and switch-mode power supplies. All digital electronics are analog, some more than others.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 11, 2016, 05:58:03 pm
content: If you are asking if there will be a need for people to design Sallen-Key filters, then yes, that part of the analog design world is going away. Same story for stereo amps, though that won't ever go away completely. Leaves an awful lot of room which isn't going away. And remember that no matter how much magic there is in the digital black box, there will always be power in and a gazinta and a gazouta. Those will forever be analog.

author: PartialDischarge
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 11, 2016, 06:04:56 pm
content: Id say that while there will be always need for analog, power , rf designers , what is really gaining traction is software. Just like electronics made mechanics less and less important(far reaching) , software is doing the same to electronics( look for example at SDR boards)

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 12, 2016, 03:37:34 am
content: Quote from: rx8pilot on August 11, 2016, 05:57:44 pmMade me laugh...!Digital is just a special case of analogue.

author: D3f1ant
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 12, 2016, 04:55:57 am
content: RF is another special version of Analog

author: Richard Crowley
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 12, 2016, 05:40:57 am
content: Analog is dying.At least that was my thought when I saw that some of my favorite chips (LM3914-15-16) are EOL (Lifetime Buy). I guess you can use a tiny 8-pin microcontroller and a few serial LED driver chips these days to implement the same function.

author: Galenbo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 12, 2016, 08:16:24 am
content: Quote from: goldcoin on August 11, 2016, 04:39:39 pmNo. Being a circuit designer will require knowledge of a switched power source and a pwm driven output for an antenna motor.The designer must also be able to include an rs232 port and the connections for a 2x16 LCD screen for his analog circuit.

author: mrpackethead
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 12, 2016, 08:30:30 am
content: Yes, and it will pay exception ally well.

author: b_force
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 12, 2016, 08:38:06 am
content: Analogue isn't dying at all. I am sorry, but than you don't get all circuits and parts that are needed to make digital circuits work. Things like filters, power supplies, interfaces, preamplifiers.Our world is analogue, so you'll always need sensors, ADCs, DACs + the circuits to get a proper signal.On top of that, switching is NOT equal to digital.This myth is especially difficult in audio (Class D isn't digital!)The definition of digital is only about a true or false state (1 or 0). PWM for example is also not a digital signal, but an analogue signal! (similar like AM and FM)The repair industrie will get to a minimum I think. Fortunate in my opinion. I persoanlly don't see the point of fixing super cheap components with labour costs which are 1000 more than the price of the components. (I mean on a regular basis like a job, like televisions, not the quick fixes on expensive stuff) On the other hand I also feel like it's not a good thing to just waste everything. So at some point we need to find a solution to recycle or something.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 12, 2016, 09:16:08 am
content: Quote from: CatalinaWOW on August 11, 2016, 05:58:03 pmAnalogue filtering is still often needed before the ADC, for example to prevent aliasing and to prevent large low frequency signals from swamping the signal of interest.Same story for stereo amps, though that won't ever go away completely. Leaves an awful lot of room which isn't going away. And remember that no matter how much magic there is in the digital black box, there will always be power in and a gazinta and a gazouta. Those will forever be analog.Quote from: Richard Crowley on August 12, 2016, 05:40:57 amThe same could be said about many digital ICs from the same era as the LM391x, such as many in the 74 series, so perhaps digital is also dying?QuoteI think what's more the case is ICs designed to perform a specific function are being replaced with programmable ICs.It's certainly true that analogue information processing is dying but that's been the case since the start of digital computing.

author: HackedFridgeMagnet
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 12, 2016, 10:53:03 am
content: Quote from: b_force on August 12, 2016, 08:38:06 amNot sure why Class D isn't digital nor why PWM isn't digital. Is it because of the filtering afterwards?I was taught if you quantise the signal level it becomes a digital signal and if you have a signal that changes at regular intervals it is discrete.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 12, 2016, 10:58:27 am
content: Here's a challenge that I'll put - and then run for cover......Define "Digital"

author: LordNobady
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 12, 2016, 11:21:42 am
content: Quote from: Brumby on August 12, 2016, 10:58:27 amI have learned ( and agree with to a level ) that any signal with has a limited number of states is a digital signal.This also means that the output of a PWM generator with a smith trigger hex inverter is analog while the PWM from a micro is digital.This means that the output of a DAC is still digital. I will admit that this is from a signal and not schematic point of view.runs for the closed safe place.( is still running for the rest of his life)

author: chris_leyson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 12, 2016, 11:24:43 am
content: QuoteA set of sampled values rather than a continuous signal

author: SimonR
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 12, 2016, 12:03:53 pm
content: Quote from: HackedFridgeMagnet on August 12, 2016, 10:53:03 amBecause a Class D amplifier can be created using ONLY analogue componets.Yes its output is either ON or OFF because it uses PWM but the anlogue output level is directly proportional to the width of the pulse. If that pulse width is controlled by an analogue input signal then its reolution is infinite, ie still analogue, which means the whole circuit is analogue.If on the other hand you use a microprocessor to drive the input then the resolution of the pulse width becomes finte as the micro can only controll it in steps so the circuit becomes digital. But only to a point its still mostly analogue components because its now become a Digital to Analogue converter.

author: b_force
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 12, 2016, 12:08:58 pm
content: Quote from: HackedFridgeMagnet on August 12, 2016, 10:53:03 amAs far as I know and can find (via google and encyclopedia) is the definition of digital means a logical statement with only true or false.Therefore it is also impossible to amplify a digital signal, because a true will not be a bigger true when amplified.You can even work digitally with pen and paper, no electronics needed.Digital also means that the signal has discrete components. The with of PWM can be a sinewave (music) and therefore is not discrete!A practical explanation is that otherwise you can even call a switch, digital, which isn't true.PWM is just a modulation technique. You could even make a PWM out of sine-waves or triangles, although very impractical.PWM is analogue by definition. You can amplify it, correct the phase etc etc etc. At the end you will have a different signal than you started with.I have no idea why, but for some reason a lot of people think that everything that looks like a square wave is equal of being digital.

author: b_force
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 12, 2016, 12:12:08 pm
content: Quote from: SimonR on August 12, 2016, 12:03:53 pmWell, you can make a Class-D amplifier with digital components as well (to some extend).The components don't say anything about the fact when something is analogue or digital.The heart of every digital circuit are analogue components.You can even build a digital circuit with only magnets and coils!The best conclusion could be indeed that some signals are more digital than others, because of the discrete character.Although a 24bit sine wave looks (and sounds!) much more analogue than digital to me.A 2bit sine wave is far from that!

author: alanb
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 12, 2016, 12:35:58 pm
content: Is anyone working on Analogue computers other than for amusement?

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 12, 2016, 12:38:22 pm
content: There's no digital world without the analog one, it's an abstraction layer which allows to solve some problems more easily and/or more efficiently, sometimes resulting in amazing performance (SDR for example). To be able to write proper code for a DSP you need to understand analog signals. Of course, you can simply copy stuff from others, but the outcome will be limited. It think the jobs are going to be specialized analog plus some basic digital stuff or specialized digital plus some basic analog stuff.

author: SimonR
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 12, 2016, 12:49:48 pm
content: Quote from: alanb on August 12, 2016, 12:35:58 pmI'd like to know the answer to this as well.I did hear of a project that went back to analogue computers as a solution, but I can't remember where I saw it now.

author: MosherIV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 12, 2016, 01:07:21 pm
content: QuoteQuoteI do not know of any. I suspect not, since modern digital computers as so powerful and more flexible than analogue computers.If any of you do not know what an Analogue Computer looks like :http://www.tnmoc.org/explore/analogue-computingalanb and SimonR, I see both of you are UK based, why not come along and have a look at them.

author: SimonR
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 12, 2016, 02:05:36 pm
content: Quote from: MosherIV on August 12, 2016, 01:07:21 pmI did, I'm a TNMOC member. But I might pay it a bit more attention next time I go.

author: alanb
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 12, 2016, 02:41:51 pm
content: I'll also look next time I'm there.

author: HackedFridgeMagnet
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 12, 2016, 02:51:58 pm
content: Just from Wikipedia:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_signalQuoteQuoteStill can't see why a class D amp isn't digital. 1/0, on/off, true/false, Vhi/Vlo, bright/dark. These seem to match the phrase "a sequence of codes drawn from a finite set of values".As an aside I seem to remember having a similar discussion before once with a contractor. I was trying to convince him that OOK was a form of digital modulation. He wouldn't accept it even with a letter from our regulatory authority ACMA.

author: alanb
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 12, 2016, 03:04:58 pm
content: Quote from: HackedFridgeMagnet on August 12, 2016, 02:51:58 pmIn class D the amplitude of the waveform at any time is represented by the width of the on-time. This width is a continuously variable analogue quantity rather than being represented by a digitally encoded number. Therefore class D is analogue in my opinion.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 12, 2016, 03:18:59 pm
content: Quote from: SimonR on August 12, 2016, 12:49:48 pmI suppose you could make the argument that every PID controller is an analog computer - because it is... ETA: I am thinking about the PID controllers that use op amps, not the digital versions.Analog computers run in real time - something a digital computer can only approximate.I only play with analog computing for fun but I have seen some very large scale analog computers used to design the propulsion system of a ICBM. Getting those things off the ground isn't easy!

author: b_force
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 12, 2016, 04:35:40 pm
content: For many reasons a Class-D is not digital at all.There are thousands of papers you will find on the web explaining this.For example, the amplitude of the pwm in a class-d is proportional to the output voltage or gain.Therefore you change the signal (and information)A digital signal doesn't care about its amplitude.You can have the same digital signal with 3V or 20V amplitude, still caries the same information.With a Class-D amplifier that's not the case.The D also doesn't stand for digital, it was the logical letter after class a,b and c.

author: goldcoin
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 12, 2016, 04:57:49 pm
content: What about medical electronics ? Will there be need for analog circuits in this domain ?

author: Jay_Diddy_B
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 12, 2016, 05:09:28 pm
content: Quote from: alanb on August 12, 2016, 12:35:58 pmYou could argue there are analog computers embedded in many devices like switch mode power supplies. There are op-amps, so named because they are performing mathematical operations, in the error amplifier.Any kind of servo loop with an op-amp is an analog computer.If you need a quad core, you can use a quad op-amp.Your DMM, if it measures RMS, has an analog computer in the RMS converter. It probably contains log, anti-log and averaging functions.Regards,Jay_Diddy_B

author: PA4TIM
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 12, 2016, 06:20:06 pm
content: Everything is depending from how you look at it, from what angel. Like the statement, DC does not exist, it is just a special form of AC with a veeeeeeery low frequency, or DC is a special form of PWM but with a veeeeeeery low dutycycle.How to hide for digital engineers ? Simple, just take the the second door, that will do itHow many digital engineers you need to change 2 lightbulbs ? does not matter, if they find the first lamp and find a way to change it, they never will look for number 2.How to drive a digital engineer nuts ? Tell him you have 2 problems you want him to work on.Why are digital engineers disqualified for the Olympic games ? They all start to soon, 1...(I think I now need to find a hiding place two)

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 12, 2016, 07:18:18 pm
content: I think it is fair to say that the transition is generally towards digital. It is much easier to design, run and modify / extend a digital device or digital services.However, it wouldn't surprise me if we go through another cycle of digital -> analog when something new in analog takes over. For example, you can actually think of "analog circuit" as a digital circuit with very high number of states.Sometime down the road, if someone somehow figures out a way to process many states efficiently and effectively, analog may become cool again.

author: Richard Crowley
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 12, 2016, 07:32:51 pm
content: Quote from: goldcoin on August 12, 2016, 04:57:49 pmOnly at the input side, the interface to the "PUT" ("Patient Under Test" as Dave puts it).We can even use pseudo-shaped and PWM digital output as the PUT's body form the capacitor of the integration filter. See the teardown of the AED.https://www.eevblog.com/2016/08/11/eevblog-909-heart-defibrillator-teardown/

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 12, 2016, 08:15:45 pm
content: In some ways the body is already digital as nerves seem to operate on on some form of PRM. But then they are analog because those pulses get summed in sort of an analog fashion.The real problem is that the world is more complicated than just two states - analog and digital. So we either need a lot more bits to describe the various flavors, or go analog. Either way there will be a lot of work for people who look for solutions to problems, not places to use existing answers.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 12, 2016, 08:31:13 pm
content: QuoteUnless you are talking about some weird class D amp or using some weird terminology, the pwm in a class D amp certainly has a well defined amplitude: positive or negative rail.The filtered pwm, or the output signal applied to the speaker, is analog.And the duty cycle in most "analog-derived" class D amp is analog (like UcD-type class d amps).Of course, between any talk of quantimization is introduced.

author: Jay_Diddy_B
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 12, 2016, 08:37:18 pm
content: Quote from: goldcoin on August 12, 2016, 04:57:49 pmI am curious to know why you are asking these questions. Is this a career /education /employment decision that you are making?I have a had a 30+ year career in the electronics industry. I found power electronics to be the most interesting part of my university education, and my first job was focused on power electronics. My degree was in Electrical Engineering. Power Electronics, was at the time, almost pure analog.Later in my career I have done all kind of things. I designed a motor drive, which required power electronics, digital design and embedded software in C.I have written in VHDL implementing custom peripherals for a NIOS processor.More recently I am doing a lot of power and this is largely control systems engineering. The 'power' part of a power supply is readily available, but the art of getting the best transient response etc. is analog engineering. There have been attempts to build digitally controlled power supplies, but in most applications the old fashioned analog controllers will out perform them (flame suit ON).I think the best jobs and the most interesting work spans both domains, analog and digital.Regards,Jay_Diddy_B

author: rx8pilot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 12, 2016, 09:15:56 pm
content: Quote from: Jay_Diddy_B on August 12, 2016, 08:37:18 pmAll of my power electronics efforts so far have been all analog. I have, however, been reading about the various efforts design software defined power. I am hoping to try some experiments sometime in the next year. It seems like a good option for my applications where the source power and loads are never the same. I am wondering if I could build a supply with a wider operational envelope with the digital systems. It would be kinda cool to dial in a feedback loop with code instead of super delicate components/PCB layout. It looks good in theory, not sure what reality may say when I try.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 12, 2016, 09:50:22 pm
content: I don't think analog is going away. All external signals are analog and need conditioning, filtering, etc. In the last few projects I had to get into Volt nuttery with references and keeping a digital circuit seperated from very sensitive signals. In another project I had to deal with near kilo-amp current pulses and tens of amps continuously which needs the math to work out right in order for the current sense amplifiers to work without getting fried or cooking the MOSFETs switching the load without exceeding leakage current requirements. The digital part is often the simple part. For an upcoming project there will be analog filtering, amplification and digital signal processing working hand in hand.

author: b_force
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 12, 2016, 09:52:09 pm
content: Quote from: PA4TIM on August 12, 2016, 06:20:06 pmThat's not true!Yes, it's "true" (sort of) from an engineering point of view.But theoretically very small is absolutely NOT the same as zero.Dividing by zero isn't allowded, dividng by a very small number can be done.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 12, 2016, 09:59:11 pm
content: QuoteJust to be complete, dividing by zero IS well defined in some mathematical frameworks, just as parallel lines do meet in some geometries.

author: b_force
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 12, 2016, 10:06:39 pm
content: Quote from: dannyf on August 12, 2016, 09:59:11 pmOn some special conditions.But that's not the same as what we are talking about here.Btw, my previous explanation about Class-D or PWM was a bit poor. What i meant was that the meaning of the signal changes when you change the amplitude of the PWM signal (and with some amplifiers the gain can change with it). Digital signals don't care about what the amplitude is, the information (message) stays the same.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 12, 2016, 10:27:02 pm
content: QuoteBy that definition, a class d amplifier (like UcD) would be truly digital, as the output signal is fully determined by the gain and input signal. not supply voltage.QuoteFirst of all, that's mostly but not always true for binary digital systems.For non-binary digital systems, ...,

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 12, 2016, 10:52:03 pm
content: Quote from: b_force on August 12, 2016, 10:06:39 pmQuite often that's not the case, especially when a high bit rate is required over a limited analogue bandwidth. For example, by having multiple voltage levels, more bits can be sent, using the same bandwidth:This coding scheme will send 2 bits per voltage level, so a frequency of 1MHz can send 2Mb/s, rather than 1Mb/s.A B Output0 0 -2V0 1 -1V1 0 +1V1 1 +2V

author: Jay_Diddy_B
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2016, 12:36:56 am
content: Quote from: rx8pilot on August 12, 2016, 09:15:56 pmThe biggest challenges are fairly fundamental. In power supply design the control loop is considered to be analog and continuous. But, as you approach the switching frequency, the control becomes a sampled data system. There is only one opportunity per switching cycle to make a change in pulse width.For technical people, this can be modelled as a delay function equal to half the switching frequency (on average.If you use a data converter and you sample the output you have an additional sampling system which can introduce more delays. Delays are like phase lag in an analog solution. If you oversample and filter you introduce more delays.Now you can have digital controlled analog power supplies. For example a DAC providing a reference voltage or a PGA optimizing the loop gain. These concepts make a lot of sense.Jay_Diddy_B

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 13, 2016, 01:12:02 am
content: There have been a couple of references above that has raised a question in regards to analogue/digital - and I'm looking at an example right now....My DOCSIS 3 cable modem.What is travelling down the coax?

author: Jay_Diddy_B
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2016, 01:21:42 am
content: Quote from: Brumby on August 13, 2016, 01:12:02 amAnalog signals that is why you need the MOdulator / DEModulator.Between the MODEM and the computer it is digital, but some analog engineer has taken care of signal integrity issues (impedance matching, termination etc.)Jay_Diddy_B

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 13, 2016, 01:26:01 am
content: OK - that was too easy.What about optical fibre?

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2016, 03:20:08 am
content: Quote from: chris_leyson on August 12, 2016, 11:24:43 amBut really, the sampled values can still be analog, e.g stored in capacitors.

author: HackedFridgeMagnet
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2016, 04:31:15 am
content: Quote from: b_force on August 12, 2016, 04:35:40 pmI dont need thousands of papers, just one.Find one that explains some of the many reasons why "Class-D is not digital at all" and post a link.Personally I think Class D amps and PWM both have significant digital aspects to them.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2016, 05:15:01 am
content: Quote from: HackedFridgeMagnet on August 13, 2016, 04:31:15 amMost class D amps have a completely analogue control loop. They quantize in amplitude (usually to 1 bit), but they don't quantise in time. That only fits the description of "digital" in the marketing department. Some class D amps are digitally controlled. These do, effectively, quantize in both amplitude and time, although the physical application of the time quantization may introduce another analogue element. These types of class-D amp could reasonably be called digital.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2016, 01:14:38 pm
content: Quotenot exactly. today's science generally believes that there exists a minimum, non-divisible electric charge which collectively form current. So in that sense, anything "analog" is really digital (or discrete, being a better word).Time can also be considered "discrete" as well.QuoteDigital: they communicate by being on and off.commercial cables tend to transmit data on the frequency domain, and multiplexed - within a sub-band, it is like a FM radio. Which can be challenging to classify it as either digital or analog as it has elements of both.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2016, 01:51:58 pm
content: Quote from: goldcoin on August 11, 2016, 04:39:39 pmI don't see analog circuit design going away unless we stop developing electronics. We have moved much of the processing and controls from analog to digital in the areas I have worked. I would say also as we have put more demands on the digital side, we have done the same with the analog side.I would suggest if you are looking at any career in electronics design, knowing some basic analog is only going to help. Same for physics, mechanical.... Can't hurt to be well rounded.I think the demand for good people will always be there.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2016, 03:10:53 pm
content: Quote from: goldcoin on August 11, 2016, 04:39:39 pmWill there be jobs for digital circuit designers for the next, say, 10+ years or will there only be poorly paid jobs for VHDL monkeys in low salary countries? Will design automation take over all but the highest level architectural design of digital processing devices? Is digital electronics still worth learning? Analogue designers, at least those working inside silicon vendors, should do fine for the foreseeable future.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 13, 2016, 03:12:48 pm
content: Quote from: dannyf on August 13, 2016, 01:14:38 pmI think this is more the case in more situations than people care to accept.

author: Richard Crowley
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2016, 03:16:26 pm
content: Remember that the people who design "digital" chips are ANALOG designers!Everything INSIDE a digital chip, from the simplest inverter to a billion-transistor CPU, is analog.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 13, 2016, 03:27:53 pm
content: Quote from: Richard Crowley on August 13, 2016, 03:16:26 pmI quite agree - and this identifies two quite distinct levels of circuit design. Chip designers - and equipment designers ... who use these chips.So, where does the inferred question from the thread title fall?

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2016, 03:41:21 pm
content: As an observer (ie:no expert, just a hobbyist) , permit me to intrude.It is not analog electronics that is dying, it is digital electronics that is dying.Hardly anyone design anything with AND gates, NAND gates, XOR parts. When was the last time you see digital electronic equipment with an abundance of digital components? The hearts of digital electronics today is mainly computational - MCU, CPU, whatever.Well, you may say, an MCU is digital electronics, an FPGA is digital electronics... That it is electronics at all is not a permanent feature. Optical, or even quantum computing are in the horizon. What would be left with digital electronics then? Perhaps as electronic glues only to other (by then) archaic digital electronic part only. Digital electronics may well be mere transitional! When that day comes, digital electronics may well be history while analog electronics will go on living.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 13, 2016, 03:49:28 pm
content: I'm just a hobbyist too - but the gates you are speaking of exist in their millions inside those 'computational' chips to which you refer.In quantum or optical systems, the specific operation of logic circuitry may vary, but the fundamental objective will be equivalent.We then get down to an argument - almost of semantics - which prompted me to put the challenge:Quote from: Brumby on August 12, 2016, 10:58:27 am

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2016, 04:15:09 pm
content: Quote from: dannyf on August 13, 2016, 01:14:38 pmThat's one simple modulation scheme but others exist which are far from two discrete levels, such as pulse amplitude modulation.

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2016, 04:27:16 pm
content: Quote from: Brumby on August 13, 2016, 03:49:28 pmThe gates do reside inside the chip and yes they are electronic today, but once the chip itself transitioned, those gates will by definition (of optical computing) be optical as well.As you say: "the specific operation of logic circuitry may vary, but the fundamental objective will be equivalent". The "fundamental objective" of a device typically is not digital electronics. Digital electronics is just the means to that device's goals. Once you achieve the equivalence by using another (presumed better) technology, it would then no longer be digital electronics.Of the statement "the specific operation of logic circuitry may vary..." What stay would just be "the specific operation of logic", but "circuitry" may be absent entirely once we transitioned into something like optical/quantum MCU.If MCU/FPGA becomes optical, what would become of digital electronics? I suspect as I posited it would just be a glue to by then outdated old electronic parts only.

author: dmills
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2016, 01:59:48 pm
content: 'Digital' is a very useful set of approximations that make managing the complexity easier, but as things get ever faster those assumptions are increasingly breaking down.Source and load termination are not really concepts that map to a purely digital view of things, yet you try designing a DDR3 array without them.... Same thing for 10Gig serial links, and pretty much everything needs signal conditioning still which is not going away any time soon.We are well past the point where a PCB of reasonable size has things that have to be viewed as transmission lines, and where the PDN should really be viewed as a waveguide, as soon as you are looking at eye diagrams and jitter on a LVDS or CML pair you are clearly outside the domain of the digital, and that sort of thing is ever more common.Each has its place, and while there is much that would once have been done with clever non linear analog that is now more easily done with a small micro, that is more then compensated by the fact that sheer speed means that much which is 'digital' really is nothing of the sort and that you have to think analog if you want it to work.I would question the notion that the quantisation of charge has much to do with the ultimate analog/digital question, it is the EM wave that carries the information, not the electrons tooling along at a drift velocity of <0.1mm/s.regards, Dan.

author: Alex Eisenhut
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2016, 04:45:54 pm
content: Digital is whatever HR says it is.

author: grouchobyte
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2016, 05:01:00 pm
content: Quote from: Richard Crowley on August 13, 2016, 03:16:26 pmRichardindeed, I concur.Remember, Analog engineers don't just die, they just fade away exponentially, yours truly included.@grouchobyte

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2016, 05:30:01 am
content: Quote from: Alex Eisenhut on August 14, 2016, 04:45:54 pmIf that is the case, you guys sure are in deep doo-doo. Glad I am just a hobbyist and will never be looking for an EE job.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2016, 02:54:12 pm
content: Quote from: dmills on August 14, 2016, 01:59:48 pmBeing digital is not about how 'nice' or easy to design a signal is but about our interpretation of it as as representing data. If as signal represents N discrete states than it's digital. In your example of DDR memory the signals are digital because they represent a few distinct states.It's OK to say some digital circuits require skill set that is typically used by analog designers but they are still digital. Reading the original post, this thread is more about the future of 'common analog design skill set' rather than the future of analog signals (which will decay IMO).