How is this legal? (selling cellphone and other radio jammers) - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Muxr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2018, 11:49:01 pm
content: https://www.theverge.com/2014/5/1/5672762/man-faces-48000-fine-for-driving-with-cellphone-jammerI read this story recently where a guy drove and jammed people's smartphones on a daily commute. So I was thinking he probably made his own jammer, but it turns out these jammers are readily available for purchase.A simple google search netted bunch of sources. The first one being in the US (jammer-store.com) just happily selling you RF jammers. They are even advertised on TV.You technically can't even sell gear without FCC certification for EMC / EMI testing, yet these guys sell gear made precisely to do what it's not allowed.What am I missing?

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2018, 12:10:12 am
content: Why it would be illegal? All you need is a licence to operate that equipment. But that's not the seller's business.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 18, 2018, 12:24:44 am
content: As always this will vary between countries. In Australia even possessing a GPS or mobile phone jammer is illegal, whether it's operating or not. They are often seized at customs as they enter the country from dodgy overseas sellers.There are some legitimate uses for jammers which the Government use, such as denying inmates access to the mobile phone networks in jails. The Australian government is also currently trialling technology which allows them to intercept and take over control of drones around jails and correctional facilities (there have been recent cases where rouge operators have attempted to drop drugs and other prohibited items into jails via drone). Manufacturers of these types of products are appropriately licensed, heavily regulated, audited and are only permitted to sell to authorised government departments.

author: Muxr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2018, 12:39:42 am
content: Quote from: ataradov on February 18, 2018, 12:10:12 amI don't understand how you can sell electronic devices which don't pass the FCC certification.https://www.sparkfun.com/tutorials/398Even non RF devices have to be tested for FCC compliance. And it is clear these would never pass those tests since their purpose is to do what the certification testing prohibits. These jammers are being sold to general public. Nowhere on that website do I see a special license requirement.What's the point of FCC compliance testing when you can mass sell interference devices to general public?

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2018, 12:44:23 am
content: Their purpose is to transit signals with modulation characteristics similar to cell signals. They don't necessarily have to violate the law, they are certified the same way as normal base stations, and they transmit similar signals. You still need to have a licence, but as far as certification.Now, I have no idea if it is legal to poses one of those without operating it.You can go an buy shortwave radios right now from may places. But you need a licence to operate one of those as well.

author: Muxr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2018, 12:47:12 am
content: Quote from: ataradov on February 18, 2018, 12:44:23 amHmm, interesting point.

author: jonovid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2018, 01:41:24 am
content: cellphone jammers are the 21 century street weapon of choice.IMOpeople have anxiety , panic attacks if the phone stopps working.however the passive detection of cellphone use is by far more useful.

author: Nerull
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2018, 02:22:31 am
content: According to US law, at least, manufacturing, importing, advertising, selling, or using these devices is illegal. The only exceptions are for public electrical utilities, but those devices are explicted prohibited form interfering with any licensed radio service, and the US government and agents thereof.So yes, they violate the law. Possession itself does not seem to be a crime, but buying, selling, or making them is so you'd have to argue that the toothfairy dropped one under your pillow. And the second you turn it on its illegal.QuoteAs to the comments above about needing a license, there is no license that allows operation of a jammer. There are no licensed users of these devices, so you can't say you're selling to them.

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2018, 02:57:28 am
content: Quote from: Muxr on February 18, 2018, 12:39:42 amFWIW, the FCC is presently occupied with performing services for the large national telecoms, and doesn't much care about menial things like shortwave or UHF.Roughly speaking, the margin where your product gets noticed is on the order of 10-100k units and 5-10 years in the marketplace.There's a lot of leeway for unnoticed violations on the "long tail".I've seen industrial equipment that had never touched a testing lab before, and has been in use for a decade or two. Was it simply quiet enough that it avoided any complaints? Possible.Rough times indeed for radio operators, these days...Tim

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2018, 02:59:34 am
content: Quote from: Nerull on February 19, 2018, 02:22:31 amWell. I wouldn't go that far, as there are still legitimate -- and important -- applications of them.What laws does the military follow? Are they exempted from civilian law? Is there an exception for this case? Are they only able to operate such devices in foreign countries (where domestic law doesn't apply, and, who gives a damn about local law in a military operation, after all)?Tim

author: Nerull
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2018, 03:50:27 am
content: The US Government, and by extension the US Military, is exempt from the prohibitions on jammers, which isn't the same as having a licensing system. The law simply doesn't apply to them."The provisions of this section shall not be applicable to...devices or home electronic equipment and systems for use by the Government of the United States or any agency thereof.""Devices and home electronic equipment and systems for use by the Government of the United States or any agency thereof shall be developed, procured, or otherwise acquired, including offshore procurement, under United States Government criteria, standards, or specifications designed to achieve the objectives of reducing interference to radio reception and to home electronic equipment and systems, taking into account the unique needs of national defense and security."The prohibition on jammers is very specific as to exempt uses, and there is no licensing mechanism to allow any other use.

author: Red Squirrel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2018, 04:09:14 am
content: I guess it's kind of like bongs (err "water pipes") and stuff of that nature in pot shops. Everybody knows what they are being used for but they arn't illegal until they are used for that purpose. There's a store near my work place that has all sorts of pot related stuff and bongs on display in the front window and I always laugh. I'm just picturing little old ladies buying these things and decorating their house because it looks cool.

author: helius
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2018, 04:44:47 am
content: Of course it is a bit of a dead letter as any of the available SDR devices that can transmit can be used to "jam" or more accurately capture cellular mobile stations.The same technique is used by femtocells to divert mobile stations from the carrier network, so there's no truth to the claim that it has never been licensed.

author: JoeN
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2018, 07:58:38 am
content: How hard would something like this be to make yourself with a single good RF transistor? I think not too hard.

author: JoeN
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2018, 07:59:50 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on February 19, 2018, 04:21:51 amHeh. How is that payment coming along?

author: JoeN
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2018, 10:58:28 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on February 19, 2018, 09:35:15 amNot sure the U.S. sources a lot of government/military sales from China. I am guessing as little as possible. I don't know either, but I have always suspected that the chances of the U.S. government getting Chinese companies to pay fines approximates that of getting Russia to extradite their citizens to the U.S. - about zero. But that's just my opinion, I may be wrong.

author: CNe7532294
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2018, 11:51:28 am
content: I see nothing wrong with this at all. Its when you start using it and making harmful interference that it counts. Also right now I can easily buy a FRS radio that shares channels with GMRS and its not illegal. Manual states that its only illegal and subject to legal action if I transmit on GMRS with no license for use those channels. Nowadays its not even hard for the most casual of home gamers to actually make stuff like jammers. Another thing seller wise, you could just sell an unfinished kit and claim user responsibility for the user putting it together and using it. From soldering to even something like just plugging stuff (software and hardware) in like an arduino. The interwebs has a hand in this too. If not this site someone else will just pick the topic up elsewhere. If this shocks you, I'll have you know you can make a fully functional gun without anyone even knowing. Google "ghost guns". Even more scary is making it fully auto doing a little searching here and there and applying what was learned. North Hollywood in 1997 is a great testament to that.Now as for if this is right or not is a debate for another day or post. For now I'll just say that I do see a use in jammers and that is if you want to make a "closed door" meeting really closed. Corporate espionage is a thing. Although one can argue you could just use a bug detector instead. Another thing is the workplace. Just like the guy in the article I'm sure there are bosses and even coworkers out there annoyed by that certain employee abusing their cellphone privileges. As long as the boss provides a means to call 911 (wired phones) and harmful interference doesn't reach outside of the work place I don't see an issue. Doesn't mean its legal though depending on where you live.To summarize: Read my first 2 sentences. Also whether legal or not, its important to understand the consequences of what you are doing. That is if you care about safety. As mentioned in the article, jamming is grounds for denying 911 service to people in possible need of it even though your intent maybe to save lives and/or personal hardship by shutting down a texter.To note: I'm American and OP is American. The article takes place in Florida, USA. Laws vary greatly from country to even regions or cities. Check with local law enforcement/regulatory body/lawyer to see legality on the use of anything. In this case, the FCC and ARRL/Ham radio are great sources to start where I live.

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2018, 11:59:46 am
content: Also for RF testing in shielded environments. I doubt the FCC cares, much less can even know, if you're not jamming anyone but yourself.

author: @rt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2018, 04:14:40 pm
content: In Australia at least, you can’t have a proper, otherwise legal transmitter, in a ready state for operation without a license,so I can’t imagine anything like this being owned by any boofhead individual going down well with the ACMA.

author: PartialDischarge
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2018, 05:30:58 pm
content: Quote from: JoeN on February 19, 2018, 07:58:38 amUsually it’s an VCO module tuned at the frequnecy of interest ( L1 in gps for example) turned on and off, that simple

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2018, 05:39:34 pm
content: There was a case in Chicago in 2016 where a disgruntled curmudgeon brought such a device onto the CTA L trains to silence other passengers' cell phones. They caught him by sending an undercover cop to stand over him and use his phone.I would have volunteered for the jury, since standing over someone and speaking loudly into ones phone is very bad manners.seehttp://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/ct-cellphone-jammer-suspect-met-20160331-story.html

author: snarkysparky
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2018, 05:44:01 pm
content: I want one for those times after lunch when I need to hit the bathroom but the stalls are full of people playing with their smartphones.

author: PartialDischarge
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2018, 06:07:33 pm
content: For technical reference here is a triband jammer. Basically 3 tuned VCOs turned on and off. Lithium battery on the other side + 3 helix antennas

author: Nusa
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2018, 06:13:48 pm
content: Quote from: Muxr on February 17, 2018, 11:49:01 pmYou've made the assumption that US laws actually apply globally. jammer-store.com isn't based in the US (google tells me they're headquartered in Sweden), and they ship from japan, china, taiwan, or korea (that's stated on their site). For the most part, these laws you speak of don't actually apply to them. When you order from them, YOU become the importer and the breaker of applicable laws.

author: Richard Crowley
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2018, 06:44:08 pm
content: Gear that is identified as "Test Equipment" is apparently exempt from FCC approval. Even if it is capable of "transmitting" RF."Lady Ada" Timor designed and published the plans for acell phonegeneral-purpose jammer when she was a student at MIT.You can read about it, see the plans and photos still here online....http://www.ladyada.net/make/wavebubble/

author: VK5RC
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 19, 2018, 07:49:09 pm
content: A year or so ago, we had a talk given by one of our ACMA compliance officers (i think one of about 4 for Australia!), re cell phone jammers - they (ACMA) are really are clamping down, cinemas and Taxi drivers seem to be some of the common places.

author: JoeN
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2018, 08:13:58 pm
content: One wonders if you couldn't create an effective jammer with a spark-gap transmitter. Cars certainly have a pretty good DC power source. Then you could play stupid and crazy ("warding off evil spirits, officer") rather than smart and criminal.

author: helius
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2018, 09:35:43 pm
content: Quote from: VK5RC on February 19, 2018, 07:49:09 pmPerhaps they could get their priorities straight and start arresting the buffoons who use smartphones in cinemas, ruining it for everybody else.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 20, 2018, 07:11:12 pm
content: A bit of news close to the topic:https://tech.slashdot.org/story/18/02/20/1843213/fcc-orders-a-brooklyn-man-to-turn-off-his-bitcoin-miner-because-it-was-interfering-with-t-mobiles-wireless-network

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 20, 2018, 11:23:36 pm
content: Things are changing and even Japan allows the use of jammers in certain public venues. Churches have tried it in the US but I don't think our laws have caught up.There are many reasons to block cell phones. Museums, art galleries, churches, any place where cell phones are obnoxious (just about everywhere). Just notify the customers with signs at the entrance stating that their phones will be blocked and call it good.

author: apelly
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 21, 2018, 01:07:18 am
content: Quote from: rstofer on February 20, 2018, 11:23:36 pmI recall hearing about French cinemas trying this out. I believe there were concerns about access to emergency services if the signal was completely blocked. I believe they've settled on a more sophisticated system that selectively blocks calls.Sorry, I have no citation at hand.

author: rfeecs
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 21, 2018, 01:22:33 am
content: I saw a film in this theater last year. No cell phone reception at all. The indoor theater is on the other side of the outdoor screen.

author: Nusa
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 21, 2018, 01:36:29 am
content: Of course you don't need a jammer to kill cell phones if you have a properly shielded room/building to start with. Looks like that might be the case here.

author: JoeN
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2018, 08:12:37 am
content: Quote from: rfeecs on February 21, 2018, 01:22:33 amThat's funny and a nice simple solution. I would think if it is not an active jammer but it is just a Faraday cage like this it would be legal even in the U.S.

author: Bassman59
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2018, 03:42:38 pm
content: Quote from: JoeN on February 22, 2018, 08:12:37 amWell, yeah, because the licenses regulate transmission. You don't need a license to receive anything, which means (among other things) that there's no guarantee that you can receive a given signal. Nothing in any building code says that the structure has to be transparent to RF!

author: Richard Crowley
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2018, 04:56:32 pm
content: Quote from: Bassman59 on February 22, 2018, 03:42:38 pmActually, at least in the US, it is not legal to receive certain transmissions, namely mobile phone. Note that most legal gear sold in the US is made with intentional gaps in coverage of the cell phone bands. Unless of course, you are using a proper mobile phone for its intended purpose. There are exemptions for military, law-enforcement, etc.

author: Ice-Tea
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2018, 05:00:51 pm
content: Quote from: blueskull on February 19, 2018, 09:35:15 amMy guess: close the shop, open a new one three doors down the road, come up with a new brand name, print new stickers, done.

author: Red Squirrel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2018, 09:49:55 am
content: Quote from: Bassman59 on February 22, 2018, 03:42:38 pmI wonder if they will ever try to stick something like that in building code. Especially with all the spy stuff in devices now days like smart TVs and all that stuff. The signal has to get out to reach the mothership somehow! Of course they'll try to pass it as some kind of safety thing, like if you can't use your cell in your house you can't call 911, since most people don't have landlines anymore.

author: Lord of nothing
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 12, 2018, 02:09:09 pm
content: How about Jam Digital Transmissions by Random Package?Here we have an Company who realy piss me off.