HP goes FTDI - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 20, 2016, 01:28:53 am
content: Beware, updating your HP printer firmware may block 3rd party ink.http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2016/09/hps-drm-sabotages-off-brand-printer-ink-cartridges-with-self-destruct-date/

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 20, 2016, 02:33:27 am
content: HP has dramatically dropped in quality over the years, now they make a deliberate move to make their products even worse?

author: linux-works
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 20, 2016, 04:35:57 am
content: such a customer-hostile move.firmware and os 'updates' now have to be more carefully vetted (by the sysadmin, ie, YOU, the owner of the system) and not just automatically accepted.oh wait, windows 10 leaves you in NO control of that, anymore.(glad I don't use win10).but all other systems still allow you to permit and deny updates, right? (not 100% sure about apple, I'm not an apple person at all).I know that linux does not force updates on you. I have not once come across a purposeful hostile update via a linux update (for any vendor, and I've used most of them, past and present).I stopped taking win7 updates on my windows systems. never installed win8 or 10. if my win7 system gets a problem, I restore from last good backup. updates to windows boxes are more toxic than the supposed problem they claim to fix.its really hard for me to accept a computer system that forces updates on you. that's so wrong on so many levels.

author: StuUK
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 20, 2016, 06:34:10 am
content: Quote from: linux-works on September 20, 2016, 04:35:57 am100% agree!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

author: BradC
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 20, 2016, 09:26:36 am
content: Quote from: linux-works on September 20, 2016, 04:35:57 amI've just accepted that is the new reality and blocked it at the firewall.As for HP products. I have an LJ2200, LJ5500 & DJ750C. I have service manuals, spare parts (and parts are still available for both laserjets). I won't be upgrading any time soon.Old HP products were built to last. The new ones, not so much.

author: TerraHertz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 20, 2016, 09:30:26 am
content: Not to mention what the hell is a _printer_ doing calling home and requesting firmware updates? Imo this isn't even acceptable for full computers, but how can it possibly be justified for a printer?HP really know how to shoot themselves in the foot. This is not going to be cashflow positive.Also, what does FTDI mean? Urban dictionary doesn't know, and google thinks it's a Scottish company.

author: BradC
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 20, 2016, 09:37:42 am
content: Quote from: TerraHertz on September 20, 2016, 09:30:26 amI think it was a reference to that Scottish company issuing driver updates that destroyed hardware. Not quite a valid comparison. Same, same but different.When I'm bored I sit and watch tcpdump or wireshark on my firewall at home to see what random equipment on the network is trying to contact. The most disturbing was a set of new Hikvision cameras that phone home by default when you plug them in. Nice..

author: alanb
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 20, 2016, 09:53:45 am
content: Its a reference to this topic.https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/ftdi-driver-kills-fake-ftdi-ft232/

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 20, 2016, 10:23:22 am
content: Fight back!http://www.eddiem.com/photo/CIS/inkchip/chip.htmlhttp://clp-300.blogspot.com/2009/03/how-to-program-your-permanent-reset.htmlhttp://www.instructables.com/id/Reverse-Engineering-to-Emulate-Ink-Cartridges-for-/3D printers apparently do the same thing too:http://haveblue.org/?p=938

author: Karel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 20, 2016, 10:28:15 am
content: The comparison with FTDI is ridiculous. The replacement (non-HP) cartridges are not counterfeit.They are clearly sold as another brand but aimed to be compatibel.The counterfeit FTDI chips are sold as being genuine FTDI chips, that's a big difference that some people like to "forget" or blatantly ignore.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 20, 2016, 11:01:24 am
content: "Beware, updating your HP printer firmware may block 3rd party ink."Not that offensive, as long as it is clearly disclosed upfront.Retroactively activating it on unsuspecting users is a different story.HP is a good story of a company going from engineering as it's core competency to marketing as it's core competency.Sadly the list of companies doing that is long.

author: BradC
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 20, 2016, 11:11:00 am
content: Quote from: dannyf on September 20, 2016, 11:01:24 amWhich it wasn't. The firmware has been gently pushed out over more than a year it's just the detonation date appears to have been Sept 13th 2016Quote from: dannyf on September 20, 2016, 11:01:24 amWhich is exactly what they did.A couple of years ago my old man had a HP A3 inkjet that had cartridge expiry timers built in. The printer had no persistent RTC and it turned out relied on the Windows driver to pass it the time & date on every print job. We just hooked it up to a Linux laptop running CUPS and SAMBA, and that filtered the date from the Windows print job. Problem solved.Unfortunately I don't think this one is as easy to get around.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 20, 2016, 12:45:13 pm
content: Quote from: linux-works on September 20, 2016, 04:35:57 amOur officejet 8600 plus printer is connected to our wifi LAN and thus can access the internet. Do they update on their own? Can I block it somehow?

author: Jeff_Birt
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 20, 2016, 01:36:59 pm
content: Anyone who has enough sense to use a printer realizes that when you buy a printer for $50 and the ink is nearly as much that the money is being made off the ink. To act all butt hurt because the printer manufacturer tries to make it difficult for you to use bootleg ink is silly. With bootleg ink/toner if it works for you that is great but the printer manufacturer has no obligation to make sure it continues to do so. I'm not against using bootleg printer supplies that work properly but I damn sure know that they may cease to work in the future.)Likewise FTDI has no obligation to make sure their drivers are compatible with bootleg chips. If they design their drivers to kill bootleg chips good for them (bad for people that got them unknowingly though), the anger should be directed toward the bootlegger though as that is the only way to solve the problem. The risk/reward you take with bootleg parts/supplies is that they may or may not work properly but they are cheaper than the name brand.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 20, 2016, 01:45:31 pm
content: Quote from: Jeff_Birt on September 20, 2016, 01:36:59 pmWill, us silly people can still avoid future purchases of HP products because of intentional product regressions like this one.HP lost my trust.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 20, 2016, 01:45:53 pm
content: HP is essentially enforcing their business model: of giving away printers so they can make money selling you the ink. So the upfront cost of the printer is being subsidized by the ink.That business model is under attack now. Thus the chiped cartridges.I can certainly see someone coming in selling fully loaded printers where you can use anyone's ink. Not sure if that's model I prefer.

author: Jeff_Birt
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 20, 2016, 02:08:12 pm
content: Quote from: dannyf on September 20, 2016, 01:45:53 pmNo one is going to cough up $500 for printer brand A when the same functionality is $50 from brand B. That is basic economics. Those vowing to never buy HP again because of this are basically 'throwing all their toys out the pram' as the Brits would say.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 20, 2016, 02:41:12 pm
content: Quote from: Jeff_Birt on September 20, 2016, 02:08:12 pmIntentionally regressing a product after I purchased it is a huge red flag for me. YMMV.

author: ebclr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 20, 2016, 02:50:20 pm
content: Must respond on same wayFTDI was replaced for CP2102 in any product I'm involvedHP will be replaced by Epson simple as that, We are nothing cowsREACT

author: linux-works
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 20, 2016, 02:59:42 pm
content: from online discussions I have read, Brother (brand) is the one to go for if you are offended by HP's style of tactics.I also won't buy samsung printers again; there was a thread here about that phoning home and also having you agree to an EULA that was dubious, at best, and allowed them to steal your data if they so chose. I can drive that samsung laser from linux (no proprietary driver, no EULA to 'sign' etc) - but its still on my do-not-buy-ever-again list.I try to avoid samsung on all things if I can. they make some nice fast nvme ssd modules but I still resist buying from a hostile brand.then again, any large company, these days, becomes hostile. its like the batman movie, you either die a hero or live long enough to become one of the bad guys. become a large enough company and you turn evil, it almost always happens when green (I mistyped 'greed', but green, aka, MONEY, also works here) and extreme capitalism are the only motivating factors for a corp.

author: System Error Message
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 20, 2016, 03:08:40 pm
content: i moved away from hp. Brother printers use the same ink cartridges they do years ago and you can refill them. They dont complain about ink and dont automatically update firmware (you have to do that manually even on their networked printers).the printer may cost 2x the price of hp but the savings you get in ink is much better.if you want to block auto updates than you will need to drop traffic to and from hp domains. Attach a router with DNS cache to the printer and look at the cache and it will show what websites it tries to contact.

author: NottheDan
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 20, 2016, 03:14:01 pm
content: Quote from: zapta on September 20, 2016, 12:45:13 pmSet up your router to block it from accessing the internet.Quote from: linux-works on September 20, 2016, 02:59:42 pmDon't worry about Samsung. HP is currently buying their printer business.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 20, 2016, 03:30:32 pm
content: Quote from: NottheDan on September 20, 2016, 03:14:01 pmHow do I do that? We are using this routerhttps://www.netgear.com/support/product/WNDR3400v3.aspx

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 20, 2016, 03:51:01 pm
content: Quote from: zapta on September 20, 2016, 12:45:13 pmzapta, I have the same printer and found a way to prevent it from automatic updating itself, but I had to do a quick search to refresh my memory:http://h30434.www3.hp.com/t5/Printer-Software-and-Drivers/Want-to-PREVENT-automatic-firmware-updates-amp-other-changes/td-p/4798863The drawback is that you must have web services enabled.

author: NottheDan
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 20, 2016, 04:03:45 pm
content: Quote from: zapta on September 20, 2016, 03:30:32 pmI'm haven't done it in a long time and I'm not familiar enough with your router to give you a specific procedure. Basically what you want to do is to create a firewall setting that blocks outgoing traffic on the ports and to the IP addresses the printer is phoning home to. Now with some ports that is easy and they can just be blocked wholesale because nothing else will use them but if the printer is using something like port 80 universal blocking will result in you not being able to read this forum because that is the usual port for HTTP traffic. Now some routers allow setting up specific blocks only for certain devices on their network in the security setting (or sometimes under parental controls) and that would make it easiest to only keep the printer in. I don't know if that can be done on your router, you have to check that yourself. Or find somebody with more experience here to give you the hints I am missing.Another alternative method direct on the printer that might work is to turn off DHCP on it, set it up with a static IP address and delete the gateway address from it. That basically keeps it from knowing where to send its data to to get it onto the internet but it will still see the local addresses.

author: rrinker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 20, 2016, 04:08:52 pm
content: It's kind of too late to stop the printer form phoning home now, unless you are just now taking it out of the box and it still has old firmware on it - the version that implemented this ridiculous process is at least a year old - the put a timer in it to only start checking after a certain time. So if up until now the printer has been able to access the internet, it already had the firmware that will cause the issue. If you happen to get an old one that still has the old firmware, then yes, by all means block it, and you should be good with refilled and compatible cartridges. ANd to keep it from sending who knows what else it might be sending, it's probably a good idea to block the printer.I gave up on ink jet printers, I don't print very much and it seemed like every time I did the ink was empty, or the nozzles so clogged it needed half the cartridge to prime and clean. Laser is the way to go for casual printing, toner doesn't dry up or clog the printer if you go weeks without printing anything.I did notice an inkjet printer that seems to do things the old way - stationary ink tanks and the print head is the only moving piece on the carriage. Seemed to be touting this as a feature for less frequent printing. I think perhaps it was an Epson. Maybe Canon.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 20, 2016, 04:14:13 pm
content: Quote from: rsjsouza on September 20, 2016, 03:51:01 pmI found this control in our router. The printer has the static address 192.168.0.5. I still need to test it but I presume this will disconnect the printer from the internet. I also hope that 1) it didn't get already the broken update and 2) it will not update through the Mac OSX connection.HP can't compete with its cartridge products and forces this yack on its printer customers. Their cartridge business must be in a very bad shape.

author: rdl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 20, 2016, 04:16:09 pm
content: It's getting to be a really screwed up world, is it not? Operating systems that spy on you and block you from control of your own PC while spamming you with paid advertising is bad enough, but now attached devices are going to start replacing their original firmware with ransom ware?

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 20, 2016, 04:27:01 pm
content: I bought the printer, I own the printer and I'll use any ink I want! Simple as that! I didn't agree to buy the manufacturer's ink as a condition of purchase and I doubt that such condition would ever get past the FTC. Where was the warning on the box, plainly visible before purchase and not down in fine print on the bottom, that said I was agreeing to buy only the manufacturer's ink?So, given HP's recent history, I'll just buy another brand. I have no loyalty, especially to a company that would pull a stunt like this.So far, my Laserjets don't seem to be complaining and we don't have any ink based printers.As to computer updates, I can turn that feature off. I could check the wisdom of installing each update but I don't. If Microsoft ever pulled a stunt like this they would be sued out of existence.At this point, I hope HP crashes. They don't deserve to remain in business.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 20, 2016, 04:28:55 pm
content: Quote from: rrinker on September 20, 2016, 04:08:52 pmI suspect you are referring to the ink tank product line fromEpson.

author: rrinker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 20, 2016, 04:52:43 pm
content: That's the one. Almost made me reconsider going laser. ALMOST.

author: C
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 20, 2016, 05:56:35 pm
content: What is so hard about computing the cost per page printed?You get a guess with what the mfr states.If you keep a simple log, you can get the true cost per page for how you use the printer.

author: Cyberdragon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 20, 2016, 05:59:54 pm
content: Excuse me?!You put a self destruct in Voltamort's printer?!Well then..."Where's my 'ammer?"*smashes the sides off the printer* *rips out controller board and throws it in the microwave*"Burn on one side then turn over!"*installs Rasberry Pi into printer*"Fixed"

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 20, 2016, 07:34:33 pm
content: "What is so hard about computing the cost per page printed?"It is easy to compute the cost per page printed.It is difficult to compute corrctly the cost per page printed.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 20, 2016, 08:06:35 pm
content: Many printers keep a count of the number of pages printed. The neat thing about that number is that it reflects your workload.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 20, 2016, 08:28:37 pm
content: I haven't been impressed with my Epson laser printer ever since I bought it. It struggles to maintain the link with the router as it is a wireless printer and I end up having to plug the bastard back in to the USB. The thing has emitted white smoke ever since I bought it. I think I certainly will try another brand in the future.It's time this stupid expensive cartridge business was made illegal. You should pay for the machine when you buy it. You should not be leasing or renting the machine by stealth. I don't mind paying upfront for good equipment. Unfortunately as with all things these days it's a race to the bottom.

author: rdl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 20, 2016, 08:40:21 pm
content: I actually find it hard to believe people still put up with liquid ink printers. I bought a Brother HL5250DN 10 years ago and never looked back. It always works and none of my computers has any trouble printing to it. I honestly can't remember it ever having a paper jam. I finally had to replace the "starter" cartridge about 3 years ago. And as little as I print these days, I may never have to buy a another.

author: linux-works
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 20, 2016, 08:44:00 pm
content: suggested title-change for the thread

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 20, 2016, 08:52:58 pm
content: ok done.

author: aandrew
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 20, 2016, 09:43:34 pm
content: Quote from: Jeff_Birt on September 20, 2016, 01:36:59 pmI don't think I've ever seen someone quite miss the point by so much as this comment.If this was a printer that said in clear, bold letters "ONLY WORKS WITH GENUINE HP INK" I would be in 100% agreement. This is not the case, however. This printer worked perfectly fine with non-HP inks, and then they set us up the bomb; they delivered a firmware update with a time bomb to make sure everyone updated. A YEAR later, the time bomb goes off. This is not a feature upgrade, this is not a bugfix, this is malicious intent. I would not be surprised to see a class action suit out of it.HP is allowed to sell their printers any way they like. As long as the limitations are clearly stipulated I have no argument with them. When they go to change things like this on the sly, though... that's indefensible. Their marketing strategy is none of my concern but these hidden little agendas sure are.QuoteSo you'd be fine with a car which worked fine with any gas, but after a regular service interval check-up now only works with Shell gasoline? That's what has happened here.QuoteAgain, missing the point. FTDI has no right to *intentionally* damage equipment that is not theirs. If they had a driver update that mistakenly caused data corruption when writing 8-bit data to a 16-bit internal EEPROM that is one thing. Malicious intent again is indefensible. I've never knowingly bought an off-brand FTDI chip, but I no longer specify FTDI in my designs because of this idiotic move. Their stupidity and sheer arrogance costs *me* money.I'm all for FTDI's drivers saying "Nope, not gonna work with a non-FTDI chip" and leaving the hardware alone. Nuking the VID:PID as a means of punishment for some invisible end-user down the road is taking it waaaay too far.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 20, 2016, 09:58:04 pm
content: Quote from: rdl on September 20, 2016, 08:40:21 pmWe switched in the other direction, from a color laser printer to an inkjet printer and never looked back. Easy to maintain, faster time to first print, and a few other goodies such as light weight, double side printing/scanning.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 20, 2016, 10:45:17 pm
content: Quote from: zapta on September 20, 2016, 09:58:04 pmI dumped our last inkjet for a decent (mono) laser, never looked back. No maintenance, takes a few seconds to warm up then shoots paper out like a machinegun. Duplex of course.It IS a bit large.. but it also has a fully enclosed and large paper tray, so it needs little feeding and the paper doesn't yellow.

author: HwAoRrDk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 20, 2016, 10:52:50 pm
content: Quote from: Cyberdragon on September 20, 2016, 05:59:54 pmJoking aside, I wonder whether we'll ever see someone come out with a kit to retrofit something like a Pi (or other single-board platform) to replace these inkjet printers' control hardware and avoid all this lock-in/locked-down/DRM crap.

author: Tomorokoshi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 20, 2016, 11:06:01 pm
content: My HP printer had CapXon clones, so it started a long decline of sometimes working and not working. A while after it totally stopped working, and there it sat for a while until it became a project. I finally replaced caps and it ran again. A few months later the ink "expired" and it wouldn't print with the nearly-full cartridges that were installed around the time the capacitors started to fail.No more HP for me.

author: BradC
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2016, 12:00:39 am
content: Quote from: rdl on September 20, 2016, 08:40:21 pmA0 sized lasers are really expensive. Inkjet a are considerably more affordable.I did have a bw A0 laser for a while, but it require a small lift tray truck to move, was maintenance intensive and expensive to run. It also needed a 20A circuit (4800 watts). The inkjet that replaced it fits in the corner of the room, can be lifted by one strong bloke and does colour. The only downside is with the rare use it requires the nozzles unblocking prior to use.Not a typical case, but you simply stated "liquid ink printers".

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2016, 12:02:37 am
content: There sure is a lot of noise on the Internet re: this DRM stuff by HP. I'm surprised that enlightened countries, like those in the EU, allow this nonsense.Nevertheless, the solution is obvious: Don't buy HP printers. While you're at it, don't buy HP anything. Pretty soon there won't be any DR to M.I waiting for some slick lawyer to start up a class action lawsuit in the US. Besides the publicity, the awards will probably break the company. Give it a couple of weeks.

author: Cyberdragon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2016, 12:32:30 am
content: (Portal turret voice in Dion Weisler's room)"There you are!""huh?"*Teleports into the room behind him*

author: System Error Message
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2016, 01:58:32 am
content: Quote from: zapta on September 20, 2016, 09:58:04 pmI switched from inket to color laser MFC. It can print double sided, has flatbed and paper feed scan, is heavier but is easy to maintain. Best part about it is that it has an ethernet port so theres no need to worry about wifi fails with printers. My last inkjet printer was hp with wifi and it wasnt the cheap one. Everytime i wanted to print i would have to put in a new cartridge. Wifi worked for a while but was never able to connect to my AP anymore.Sure getting a full featured laser printer is expensive but it is worth the price.The only good use for inkjet is to print photos and you can use different types of paper.Most people just switch to monochrome laser for the lower cost.

author: Karel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2016, 06:38:42 am
content: Quote from: aandrew on September 20, 2016, 09:43:34 pmCounterfeiters have no right to *intentionally* sell/import counterfeit products or products that containcounterfeit products. Solve that first,thenwe start talking about FTDI.It's weird that some people are more angry to FTDI than the counterfeiters...

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 21, 2016, 06:54:29 am
content: Quote from: Karel on September 21, 2016, 06:38:42 amCan we stay mostly on topic please, you can debate FTDI in the FTDI thread if you wish.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2016, 12:40:15 pm
content: Quote from: Karel on September 21, 2016, 06:38:42 amCompatible ink cartridges are not 'counterfeit'. They are sold at large retailer such as Amazon so if there was any illegality involved HP would go after them.HP simply sneaked a malware to force printer owners like me to purchase their non competitive cartridge products. That's low.

author: Karel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2016, 01:40:47 pm
content: Quote from: zapta on September 21, 2016, 12:40:15 pmIndeed, the comparison with FTDI is not appropriate. That was my point:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/hp-goes-ftdi/msg1030834/#msg1030834

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2016, 02:17:00 pm
content: The cartridges we use for our 8600 Plus are not available anymore. Must be due to too many complaints after the firmware update:https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B017GRW91CHowever, amazon seems other cartridges that tolerant the HP firmware update:https://www.amazon.com/EBBO-Replacement-Cartridges-Compatible-Officejet/dp/B01HMB1US0The free market corrects itself.

author: aandrew
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 22, 2016, 12:47:37 am
content: Quote from: Karel on September 21, 2016, 06:38:42 amMissing the point again.I, as a design engineer, can specify FTDI. My supply chain (DigiKey has been bitten by things like this too) can try to make sure they're getting genuine parts. Counterfeiters get through sometimes.When FTDI nukes 1000 of my boards and I've got to deal with the fallout you're damn right I'm upset with FTDI. I'm upset with the supply chain as well, but they didn't do something mailicious which will cost me thousands of dollars and give me a black eye in the eyes of my customers. FTDI did.If FTDI simply refused to work with the clone chips I'd still have headaches, but I could work around the problem. There's no working around what they did, and it's why I'll never spec another FTDI part in any of my designs again.QuoteThe counterfeiters are a nuisance, absolutely agreed. FTDI went out of their way to cause *me* problems when they could have handled it in a much, much better way.

author: Karel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 22, 2016, 07:47:18 am
content: Quote from: aandrew on September 22, 2016, 12:47:37 amWhen counterfeiters nukes 1000 of my boards and I've got to deal with the fallout you're damn right I'm upset with counterfeiters.This is where you must not confuse cause and effect.

author: HighVoltage
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 22, 2016, 07:52:26 am
content: There was a time, when I only bought HP.Since a few years, my motto is to NEVER buy HP.The fall of HP is just ridicules.

author: Brutte
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 22, 2016, 09:16:21 am
content: Quote from: linux-works on September 20, 2016, 02:59:42 pmHereis the topic.Unfortunately, I was their victim.Many posts express the tolerance for the HP/Samsung/FTDI policy and encourage work-arounds to block the IP connection/update somehow.Concerning.

author: NottheDan
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 22, 2016, 09:46:28 am
content: Quote from: Brutte on September 22, 2016, 09:16:21 amWhat?Understanding why a policy came about does not equal tolerance of it and neither does finding methods of coping with it. We can't actually change the policy and most of us don't have the spare change to scrap working equipment just like that.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 22, 2016, 11:00:19 am
content: "I, as a design engineer, can specify FTDI. My supply chain (DigiKey has been bitten by things like this too) can try to make sure they're getting genuine parts. Counterfeiters get through sometimes"This seems to be a case of misplaced outrage.From what you described, the root cause is your having picked the wrong source for your part, or you didn't provided sufficient control over your production.I can see anything other you being responsible for having used fake parts in your products.Ftdi has no obligation to make there software to work with fake parts in your products - actually I don't think they have any obligation to make their software work with their hardware but that's a different story.Ftdi may not have responded to the fake parts wisely or nicely but being stupid and nasty isn't a crime. Or many people would be in jail now.

author: rrinker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 22, 2016, 05:02:47 pm
content: Can and should are two very different things.With FTDI, it is every bit in their right to make their driver not work with fake chips. And I think had they stopped there, very few would have a problem with them. They have absolutely no right to damage devices.So far, HP is not actually breaking anything, they are just preventing non-HP cartridges from working. That's within their right to do. Just as it's in my right to not buy any of their products and tell everyone I know to not buy their products do to this underhanded tactic. Had they just come out and said that the latest firmware will do this, it would be annoying, but they way they went about this, embedding a time bomb in a year old firmware update, is just disgusting business practice. And yet they probably all look at one another in corporate meetings and wonder why they keep going downhill... ANd it will continue until they finally disappear for good or someone, ANYONE, on their board gets his head unstuck from his ass and stops hiring failures as CEOs. The last bunch have all had horrible track records at previous positions, but were welcomes with open arms at HP. Or they came from businesses so vastly different thatn HP's that there was no way they could know how to operate there.

author: rdl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 22, 2016, 05:32:14 pm
content: Printers that suddenly stop working, no matter what the reason, are broken.I hope this ends up in court.It would be interesting to know if the purchaser was made aware or could at least find out, before actually buying the printer, that:HP cartridges were the only type that could be used in these printers?HP could make changes to the printer in the future without the owner's knowledge or permission?

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 22, 2016, 05:33:10 pm
content: The fact is that big companies are a law unto themselves. The only way for any of us to get justice is to take them to court and they know just how very expensive that is.

author: Cyberdragon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 22, 2016, 06:03:48 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on September 22, 2016, 05:33:10 pmOr we could pull a Mr.Robot and send out a virus that causes all HP products to self-destruct.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 22, 2016, 06:04:55 pm
content: Quote from: Cyberdragon on September 22, 2016, 06:03:48 pmYou mean like FTDI did.....

author: rdl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 22, 2016, 06:12:30 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on September 22, 2016, 05:33:10 pmHere in the U.S. if anything does happen, it will probably be aClass Actionlawsuit.

author: System Error Message
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 22, 2016, 08:39:53 pm
content: The solution is simple, just stop using hp. Brother printers let you refill their ink cartridges and they even have refill kits. Other brands dont judge you if you use refilled cartridges.HP is a big company, they not only have printing as a business but also other things such as server and PC market. They barely make a profit when selling printers so its not at a lost but they profit out of the ink. The problem is that HP is one of the biggest companies in printing so its no surprise they are trying to monopolise and bleed customers as much as possible. Dont forget there are other brands like canon, epson and so on. I never see photographers use hp, they typically use canon.Inkjet is best at photos, laser for documents so get the printer which matches your needs closest and just avoid hp.Bleeding your customers is one of the worst practices as it means they have to make a choice, either stick with you and not afford their essential, or not stick with you to afford essentials.

author: Tomorokoshi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 22, 2016, 09:28:22 pm
content: Quote from: System Error Message on September 22, 2016, 08:39:53 pmA few thoughts:1. Ironically, HP expanded into the IBM-compatible computer market. In the process of trying to get an even larger share of that market, they bought Compaq - famous for making IBM-PC clones.2. Becoming locked-in with no options is a great way to make brittle any remaining goodwill and loyalty from customers. Examples include internet, cell, and long-distance service providers.3. It appears HP decided they are in the ink-delivery business, not the printer business. Customers are shopping for "printers", not ink-delivery systems. This disconnect stresses the relationship.4. Arbitrary and capricious product limitations are maddening, particularly when they appear at inopportune times, or cause sudden non-function. Expiring ink is the worst example of this. It should be able to be overridden until there is nothing getting on the paper - a bad print is better than no print at all.5. HP marketing should review the saga of DIVX:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DIVX

author: HwAoRrDk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 22, 2016, 10:13:27 pm
content: Quote from: System Error Message on September 22, 2016, 08:39:53 pmActually, HP the consumer PC/printer company are no longer the same entity as HP the server/networking/storage company, and haven't been since 2015. The former is HP Inc., the latter Hewlett Packard Enterprise.So, really, if their margins on printers are so small as to create the need to rely on ink sales for profits, the fact they now have no other corporate divisions to prop them up makes arrogant moves such as recent somewhat unsurprising.

author: aandrew
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 23, 2016, 01:48:29 am
content: Quote from: dannyf on September 22, 2016, 11:00:19 amUltimately you are right. I am not willing to take my chances with a vendor who has willingly gone the vindictive route. I suspect there are vanishingly few companies who vigorously verify that the components they are getting are coming from the expected source. Most would trust their supply chain and select suppliers/distributors with good track records, just as they choose components from vendors with good track records.Ftdi has no obligation to make there software to work with fake parts in your products - actually I don't think they have any obligation to make their software work with their hardware but that's a different story.Ftdi may not have responded to the fake parts wisely or nicely but being stupid and nasty isn't a crime. Or many people would be in jail now.

author: alanb
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 30, 2016, 07:27:37 am
content: According to the Daily Mail this morning HP have had a change in policy and have released a further firmware update that reverses the previous limitations.

author: rdl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 30, 2016, 02:38:53 pm
content: There was ablog post by HP's COO, Jon Flaxman, but it seems like little more than quick reaction just to beat down the flames. He apologized, but not actually for what they did, only for not doing "a better job of communicating about the authentication procedure to customers".He then went on to say:QuoteWhich doesn't sound like a policy change to me, more like:We'll try again as soon as this fail is forgotten. No cheap ink for you!

author: alanb
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 30, 2016, 03:08:05 pm
content: This is an extract from the article'But in a statement yesterday, the firm apologised to customers for not explaining what it was doing, and promised another software update which provides the option of reversing the controversial change'http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-3812700/HP-promises-fix-printer-software-barred-outside-ink.html

author: Macbeth
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 30, 2016, 04:20:13 pm
content: I got around the timebomb by installing firmware from 2014 on my Officejet 8610. I'm sticking with it despite the back pedalling with the promised new firmware release.The other nonsense HP pull is it wouldn't even print black & white when my black cartridge is genuine HP (only my colour carts are "damaged" third party ones).Funny how the damage was magically fixed with that early firmware install.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2016, 11:08:16 pm
content: Reading the HP post here, the firmware update that will revert the non HP cartridge cloning is 'optional'. Does it meant that it will be blocked by default unless if the user opt out from the blocking?http://h30434.www3.hp.com/t5/Inkjet-Printing/Dedicated-to-the-best-printing-experience/m-p/5783870/thread-id/575869BTW, that post is full of corp talk BS.

author: Cyberdragon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 03, 2016, 12:50:49 am
content: Quote from: zapta on October 02, 2016, 11:08:16 pmSo many things wrong here, I think they need to rename the company to Hewlett Picard

author: Cubdriver
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 03, 2016, 01:02:28 am
content: Quote from: zapta on October 02, 2016, 11:08:16 pmFrom the above link: "HP printers and original HP ink products deliver the best quality, security and reliability. When ink cartridges are cloned or counterfeited, the customer is exposed to quality and potential security risks, compromising the printing experience. It is important to understand that all third party cartridges with original HP security chips continue to function properly."How, praytell, does an aftermarket print cartridge pose a SECURITY risk?!?Quality I can understand, but security?Maybe to the security of HP's bottom line, but to the printer?-Pat

author: System Error Message
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 03, 2016, 03:42:53 am
content: ink cartridges nowadays have chips in them. They are talking about the chips on a networked printer or about the seller selling your information.

author: Cubdriver
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 03, 2016, 04:06:52 am
content: Quote from: System Error Message on October 03, 2016, 03:42:53 amI never thought of it that way, but I suppose it could be possible. Things talk too much these days.-Pat

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 03, 2016, 04:58:48 am
content: HP wants to talk about security but they still print a tracking identifier on every document?http://www.instructables.com/id/Yellow-Dots-of-Mystery-Is-Your-Printer-Spying-on-/https://www.eff.org/pages/list-printers-which-do-or-do-not-display-tracking-dotsI had thought this was unique to ink type printers but, no, it applies to color laser printers.

author: Cyberdragon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 03, 2016, 05:22:39 am
content: Quote from: rstofer on October 03, 2016, 04:58:48 amI thought it was the other way around and only on laser (or at least rare on ink). But no matter, Voltamort has a solutionhttps://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/automatic-tracking-dot-disabling-in-bw-printing-mode/msg811811/#msg811811

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 03, 2016, 07:00:51 am
content: Quote from: HwAoRrDk on September 22, 2016, 10:13:27 pmThey've just spent 1 billion US$ for Samsung's printer division.

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 03, 2016, 07:12:38 am
content: Quote from: rdl on September 30, 2016, 02:38:53 pmI'm not sure yet what to do about that. Should I boycott HP printers or should I buy cheap HP printers and only use alternative ink/toner regardless of any guarantee requiring genuine ink/toner? What would hurt them more?

author: StuUK
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 03, 2016, 08:20:03 am
content: Quote from: HwAoRrDk on September 22, 2016, 10:13:27 pmThat's been the prevelent business model for sometime on Printers, almost a loss leader on the hardware on the basis of profits from the ink cartridges/consumables. To be fair, if they are losing out on 3rd party ink then they should sell the printers at a 'proper price' and move away from relying on consumables to make the money. To be honest i'd prefer to spend more on a printer and get much cheaper ink because that's the real cost of printing anyway.

author: System Error Message
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 03, 2016, 08:22:50 am
content: boycott solutions that lock you into buying only from the manufacturer for ink. HP's method is very wasteful as you cant reuse cartridges. Its why i went with brother printers as you can refill them.There are various reasons to choose your own ink and many instances where printers are modified to perform other tasks.But for your everyday tasks printers should be affordable and ink shouldnt cost too much. The price of a printer should be determined by the quality of printing and scanning.You can still buy HP printers, just look for ones that dont have this sort of lock in.

author: rrinker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 03, 2016, 06:14:25 pm
content: Quote from: Cubdriver on October 03, 2016, 01:02:28 amWell I suppose in an extreme case, an aftermarket cartridge could be designed that causes a buffer overflow sort of fault with the printer's controller, allowing for code injection hat makes the wireless interface an open gateway to the victim's network. Would love to see such a cartridge that actually worked - although I guess it would just have to do the evil and who cares if it prints, the user will get mad, return it or replace it with another generic or a real HP one, and the printer will function, except the damage has already been done.But this has to be so far down the list of potential intrusion vectors that it's getting near tinfoil hat territory. Though there was a whole series of HP JetDirects that could be easily hacked and gain the attacker access to the network. Another brand had the same issue with their management board, might have been Lenovo, I recall going through and doing firmware updates on all the printers at a client to address the vulnerability as mentioned in the CVE assigned.It's the price we pay for having things cloud connected that have no business being connected. How many people REALLY need to print something at home when they are at Grandma's house?

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 03, 2016, 07:01:32 pm
content: If you buy a genuine HP cartridge you generally get a shipping label for the old one ( in the USA, EU and some other countries, it varies by region but you can send the old one back, not for free because it is built into the price) so you can have HP "environmentally friendly" recycle it. Then look in the small print on the paper that comes with the cartridge ( or in flyspec font in that grey block of text on the pack) and you will see that the "Genuine HP Original" cartridge you just bought, at full retail price ( or the discount price from some large volume retailer) can actually be a refilled cartridge in any case, it "may contain parts from the HP recycling program" being sold as new for the same price.So, I have HP cartridges refilled, and generally I find the refill to be both better page count wise ( 2500 pages on refill versus 2000 pages on the "Genuine HP" one) and as well the cost of the refill is a quarter of the wholesale price ( not retail price, but the bulk price) of the unit. As to how many times you can have it refilled, I have some cartridges that have been refilled easily 50 times now, and they still do the job, though the refill involves a few parts always being changed, like the toner, drum and the wiper blade.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 03, 2016, 08:49:02 pm
content: Reading this thread I'm still wondering why people are still buying inkjet printers! A color laser printer is much cheaper per page especially when you are not printing that much. The HP (b&w) laser printers I have support large and small toner cartridges so you can choose how much you want to spend on toner. I threw the inkjet printers out because they continued to get clogged (very little usage) and needed new cartridges for almost every page!

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 03, 2016, 10:28:08 pm
content: Though not a typical use case, i have a friend who does web/logo design and photography, he eats ink like crazy and is always looking for cheap ink.

author: BradC
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2016, 06:52:24 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on October 03, 2016, 08:49:02 pmFor some non-typical use cases.A) 6 (or more) colour ink is far superior for quality colour reproduction. Don't get me wrong, I have some fantastic colour lasers, but they pale compared to a good squirter when reproducing subtle tones.B) A2/1/0 laser printers are big, heavy and fairly expensive. Comparably sized inkjets are far smaller, cheaper and therefore more competitive. My A0 colour inkjet is actually cheaper to run and easier to maintain than the A0 B/W laser I had for a while.C) For exceptional media. Media that is sensitive to heat damage, has texturing not compatible with drum transfer or simply requires absorption to provide the required finish.Now we get into the simple reasons. A cheap colour inkjet is considerably cheaper than a cheap colour laser. I'd pay more every day, but for the mother going to officeworks to buy a printer so her daughter can spit out her colour assignments and not knowing any better, the colour inkjet is cheaper on the shelf.So, for your "I print A4/3 from time to time and need a bit of colour" use case, the laser wins everything except up-front cost, but for those edge cases or the mom on an instant budget it's hard to pass up the cheap inkjet.

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2016, 02:10:19 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on October 03, 2016, 08:49:02 pmSorry to dissent, but color laser printers got a higher price/page than inkjet color printers. Also, they don't produce printouts as brilliant as inkjets. It's different with B/W lasers, which can have a very low price/page. If you're printing b/w letters, a laser is the best way to do it. BTW, there's a new class of business inkjets which are fast and print as cheap as b/w lasers. Let's see if they will gain some market share. Laser printed letters are considered professional, while inkjet printed ones are "cheap".

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2016, 06:15:42 pm
content: Got a Tektronix Phaser 340 that I am going to turn on for the first time in nearly a decade, print a few pages with then strip apart for scrap. Price per page makes any inkjet insanely cheaper, as the printer uses half of the supplies in doing a clean and calibrate cycle on power up, and if you leave it on it will eat the rest in a week. Black though is free, and have plenty of it as well, so the prints ( if it actually will power on and come ready) will be a white text ( or whatever colour I want) on a black background, as there is absolutely no difference in page cost.Brilliant colour, really pops out, but not stable with time or with heat, and tends to smear as well, as it is after all wax. The one graphics designer who use3d a few of them a decade ago had a salon next door who used the black wax sticks as a special hair remover wax, as they would come as 2 sticks in a pack of 3 colour, and you rarely used the black that much. If you did you could call the agents and they would drop off extra black with your next insanely expensive colour wax delivery.

author: BradC
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 05, 2016, 01:19:13 am
content: Quote from: madires on October 04, 2016, 02:10:19 pmI guess that depends on your printer. I have a HP Colour Laserjet 5500. Price per colour page (A4 or A3) is about a third to a quarter of the best I could manage with an inkjet unless I was refilling carts myself. Even with off the shelf cheap third party carts for the Inkjet, the laser wins out every time. It's even better on the occasions I find a good deal on surplus genuine HP toner, but the compatible refills are ok too.Quote from: madires on October 04, 2016, 02:10:19 pmNo argument there. I have an Oki C3600 A4 laser which does pretty spectacular colour, but it's not as good as a decent 6 colour inkjet. It was free though, and I don't ever have to unclog nozzles or print regularly to keep it working.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 05, 2016, 01:26:35 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on October 03, 2016, 08:49:02 pmWe replaced our color laser printer with an inkjet and never look back. The inkjet is smaller, lighter, has easier to maintain consumables and has faster latency to first page.

author: System Error Message
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 05, 2016, 09:03:56 am
content: for home use time to print a page doesnt matter. Laser printers do take longer initially since they have to warm up, there are major differences.Essentially an inkjet cheaper is more expensive in ink but uses less power and cost less upfront. a laser printer cost more upfront, ink is less expensive but uses more power. Its very difficult to compare them so get what fits your requirements most. If you print sometimes such as more often than once a month than inkjet will be fine. if your print a lot or rarely than laser is better. If you print pictures or on certain materials inkjet is better. Laser however is better when you want the document to still be intact even after water has spilled on it.Simple presentation or pictures laser can do it well. So if you have a friend who prints web pages the laser would be better actually. Normal pictures inkjet is better. I did print a high quality full A4 picture (one of microsoft's example pictures) and it turned out really well with laser. The colours were a bit off but only noticed if you compared it side by side with monitor (or perhaps the monitor colour could be off).Another thing i noticed about quality, how many here actually tweak your quality settings when you print? You keep saying that printer x is better quality than printer y but did you check the settings rather than defaults? Try print with both printers using the same quality settings, thats the best way to compare.If you want inkjet to be cheap, dont get the crappy ones, get ones that you can service by cleaning the heads, refilling the cartridges yourselves.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 05, 2016, 10:52:19 am
content: Quote from: System Error Message on October 05, 2016, 09:03:56 amIt does in this home. We typically print a page or two and by the time we walk to the printer the inkjet already printed it.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 05, 2016, 12:35:50 pm
content: Quote from: zapta on October 05, 2016, 10:52:19 amWithout specifying which laser or inkjet printer this comparison doesn't go any further than being a nice story. In both categories you have fast and slow printers. Technology wise a laser printer is always ahead because it doesn't have to swipe a large&heavy printing head numerous times across a piece of paper.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 05, 2016, 02:23:42 pm
content: Quote from: rstofer on October 03, 2016, 04:58:48 amThe EFF got involved also in the current HP incidenthttps://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2016/09/hps-run-keep-pressure

author: Cubdriver
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 05, 2016, 03:32:38 pm
content: For very occasional use, I find the laser to be just as fast as the inkjet as the inkjet spends as much time squirting out half of each cartridge as it wakes up and cleans irself as the laser does to warm up. And at least the laser isn't burning through a bunch of toner each time you start it.Like everything, horses for courses. Each is better than the other for certain things. Use whichever best meets your needs.-Pat

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 05, 2016, 03:55:18 pm
content: Quote from: Cubdriver on October 05, 2016, 03:32:38 pmDoesn't happen with our Officejet 8600 Plus, but I don't know what 'very occasional' means.We typically use it at least once every few weeks or so.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 05, 2016, 06:24:19 pm
content: Quote from: zapta on October 05, 2016, 03:55:18 pmSimilar run conditions and identical printer family; I can vouch for the speed and economy of the Officejet 8600 (non-Plus). My previous printer was an Officejet 6500 Plus but the number of printed pages per "XL" cartridge was about a fifth of the newer one, despite their claims of only "half" of printed pages.

author: rrinker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2016, 07:04:20 pm
content: Quote from: Cubdriver on October 05, 2016, 03:32:38 pmExactly why I switched to a color laser. My once in a whole every few weeks printing led to most of the ink cartridge being wasted. To make matters worse, after it sat for a while my HP printer with a genuine HP cartridge (NOT a refilled one, first use) would start complaining that one or more of them were not genuine HP - at that point it would work, after I OK'd the warning message on the printer control panel. Only - it WAS a genuine HP cartridge

author: Richard Crowley
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2016, 08:14:00 pm
content: What @Karel and @Jeff_Birt are missing is the fact that NOBODY is going out and intentionally buying COUNTERFEIT FTDI chips. The manufacturers, assemblers, and even the distributors have no way of telling what is genuine FTDI vs. the identically-marked counterfeit chips. THAT is why it was so incredibly offensive when FTDI deliberately bricked the products bought by innocent end-users from innocent manufacturers and assembled by innocent board-stuffers with parts from innocent chip distributors.The situation is completely different with the HP printers. End-users are going out and buying HP printers which have had no warning about 3rd party supplies and historically have operated with 3rd party supplies for decades. Then HP comes along after the fact and modifies the hardware which is YOUR property (no longer theirs!) so that it behaves more to THEIR economic benefit. That is simply not justifiable to any logical way of thinking. And to do it surreptitiously over a long timeline sounds like the very definition of legal conspiracy. *I embrace the "walk-away" solution. I will never again intentionally buy anything with an FTDI chip in it, and HP is now on my boycott list as well. These companies have fouled their own nest and created massive ill-will with customers. Neither company deserves any more of my business.* On second thought. While you bought the HARD-ware from HP, you only bought a "license" to "use" the firmware inside. I'm sure that somewhere in the fine-print, throw-away, "shrink-wrap license-agreement" there is a notification that you don't OWN the firmware that makes the hardware operate. However, it is not clear that gives HP free license to come in and change the firmware without your knowledge of the implications.

author: rdl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2016, 11:16:29 pm
content: Quote from: Richard Crowley on October 06, 2016, 08:14:00 pmI actually sort of brought this up before.Quote from: rdl on September 22, 2016, 05:32:14 pmIs this any different from the manufacturer of an automobile sneaking new firmware into an unsuspecting customer's vehicle which causes it to no longer run on anything but the manufacturer's brand of fuel?