Is Intel Planning To Kill Enthusiast PCs? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Sionyn
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2012, 09:04:31 pm
content: According to a story by Charlie Demerjian, a long-time hardware journalist, Intel's next generation of x86 CPUs, Broadwell, will not come in a package having pins. Hence manufacturers will have to solder it onto motherboards. That will likely seriously wound the enthusiast PC market. If Intel doesn't change their plans, the future pasture for enthusiasts looks like it will go to ARM chips or something from offshore manufacturers.such a big deal ?http://semiaccurate.com/2012/11/26/intel-kills-off-the-desktop-pcs-go-with-it/

author: ejeffrey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2012, 09:36:54 pm
content: Seems a bit sensationalist to say the least, although actual technical details seem to be less available than apocalyptic rhetoric, fingerpointing, and holier-than-thou grandstanding.No socket certainly does not equal killing the desktop PC, and suggesting that it does is pure insanity. Assuming the article is correct and the next generation PC chips won't be available with sockets it may change the landscape of the enthusiast PC market, but it is rather unlikely to eliminate it. At the most it probably means that you buy a motherboard with the CPU soldered on, and save a few bucks since you don't have to buy a 2000 pin package and socket that you connect once, and are easily damaged.Enthusiast PCs have been losing market share for years not due to any malicious intent, but simply because they can't compete on price any more. When I built my first PC, you could save a ton of money and get better performance than a basic Dell, and even many small companies built their PCs from parts. Now, you can't build a computer cheaper than you can buy a Dell or HP. These days the only reason to DIY is if you want a high performance or gaming machine where the OEMs either don't have comparable units or they charge a huge markup to upgrade the memory/storage/video card, or want some other specialty product (SFF/HTPC/NAS...).

author: G7PSK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2012, 09:38:12 pm
content: There are other chip manufacturers out there to pick up the slack.

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2012, 09:41:12 pm
content: That article is way over the top. It's not the end of the world.A few points come to mind.- It maybe they've become so good at manufacturing that 99% of all chips can run at the fastest clock. So they're decided to solder them onto the boards for life and go to a firmware upgradable system for people to buy more speed/cores. (queue hackers to enter the scene)- How often do you change a CPU on a motherboard, even as a PC enthusiast? Not very often. My current PC has never had its cpu changed since i put it together (ok maybe i pulled it out once, but just to redo the thermal compound).- When you upgrade your PC, 99% of the time tech has moved on and you're replacing the motherboard as well. So it doesn't matter if they're soldered together.- It will make the new mb+cpu part a little cheaper since intel will get rid of the whole CPU retail packaging, retail distribution and retail marketing departments which will cut costs. The process of putting the CPU onto the MB can be done as part of the existing motherboard picknplace so it adds little to the cost and removes the socket,pins and complex cpu package from the board.- CPU speed isn't all that important any more, not like it was 10 years ago. Whats important now is videocard speed and hard disk/ssd speed.- I wonder how they will do heatsinks, will it be up to the motherboard manufacture to come up with their own solution? and will they standardize on a heatsink connection for 3rd party units. That's probably the only area were the enthusiast might get screwed.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2012, 09:53:41 pm
content: Yeah, what Psi and others said. I can't even be bothered to read the article.For a long time now CPUs and chipsets have been mated together by family. The mainboard is designed around a chipset and only CPUs from the compatible family will work with it. Socketed chips became obsolete years ago, so why should CPU chips be any different? You will simply buy the mainboard and soldered on CPU as a single replaceable item. It's likely to be cheaper and more reliable.

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2012, 10:01:53 pm
content: If they still have a range of cpu models with different speed/cores it makes the retailers job a bit harder, as they have to stock motherboard G2AF6-A20 with all of the different CPU types.That's what makes me think it might be a firmware upgrade system, maybe only 2 cpu models, a low and high end. You pay $40 at any time to enable cores or unlock more clock options within that model.

author: poptones
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2012, 10:04:25 pm
content: the only reason to DIY is if you want a high performance or gaming machine...Or you don't want to buy a box of wonhunglo shit that blows up in a few months.I built my machine for about 1200 bucks and I've had it about three years now. It's still fast as a new $900 mac mini and it has plenty of expandability. It's also faster than a $600 Dell ($1019 not on cyber monday) and, again, the dell doesn't have a raptor boot drive or five 750GB disks in a raid5.There's plenty of good reasons to build your own machine.

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 26, 2012, 10:04:31 pm
content: I don't think it such a big deal either but I can think of one way this would have stopped my last big overclock. I have a Q6600 which came stock at 2.4 GHz. By taping a pin, or connecting a couple of pads, it overclocks to 3.0HGz without any other consideration. This kind of overclocking or upgrading for free will be stopped cold unless a person want to desolder and reball a BGA CPU on a motherboard.

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2012, 10:08:30 pm
content: Quote from: Lightages on November 26, 2012, 10:04:31 pmMy Q6600 is running at 3.15Ghz, just from changing bios options. No taping of pins or connecting of pads was needed.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2012, 10:19:28 pm
content: So we'll move to processor modules, possibly even with built in VRMs.This may even reduce the cost of higher end boards if you don't intend to run high power CPUs on them.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2012, 10:33:02 pm
content: msh. what's the problem ? good riddance to those annoying sockets. better current distribution , less capacitive load, faster speeds, cheaper packages , no more cost of the zif socket on the mobo... i only see advantages.the home built market is a long gone thing. all you can do is pick a motherboard ( which are all built around the same chipsets ) plug in a cpu and video card and ram.the computer will evolve to a module that has cpu and memory. out of that will come a connection grid carrying pci express lanes , sata and usb 3 lanes. this module will plug into a 'backplane' to distribute the signals to the video card , storage modules and user i/o . that's it. you don;t need anything else. it;s all integrated.and as for overclocking ... you simply don't do that.

author: ecat
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2012, 12:10:27 am
content: Potential problems:Reduced competition and differentiation in the motherboard market leave no room at either the high end or the super cheap end.Purchase and stock holding of CPU (+ motherboard) is shifted to the MB manufacturers. The additional cost plus risks involved may lead to some MB manufacturers pulling the plug thereby further reducing competition.If two or more CPU SKUs are available this would exacerbate the previous point.If all CPUs and MBs are essentially equal it leaves little reason for high end, or low end coolers or memory, further reducing customer choice.Since the beginning the PC has been open on both hardware and software fronts. This has given rise to vast choice and attendant competition resulting in low end-user costs. Great news for the consumer, not so great news for Intel or Microsoft. With the integration of Market Place, or whatever it's called, into Win8 MS may be signalling its intent to close the software, if Intel were to go some way towards closing the hardware the combination could be very bad news for all PC users, though I'm sure the respective shareholders and most copyright bodies would be delighted... All speculation of course.

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 27, 2012, 01:57:38 am
content: If it is just the CPU that is not changeable anymore, I rellay don't see a problem with that. If it starts getting to no options for anything except a black box and you have no choice in anything, then I have a problem with that. In all my years of computing and upgrading, I have never upgraded a CPU. I have made very specific selections on my initial CPU and motherboard, but then afterwards have never changed the motherboard/CPU combination. I have changed memory, video cards, storage drives, audio devices, but never the CPU. As long as we still have all the other choices and BIOS options, then I can see that it isn't that big of an issue. If it is the start of a change to no choices, then I won't like that at all.One last little problem though. If you have a problem with a motherboard or CPU failure out of warranty, it will cost much much more to fix your problem.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2012, 02:26:26 am
content: CPUs are pretty reliable though...What ISN'T, though, is the BGA bonding, it appears.I know BGA packages are necessary, but there seem to be way too many problems. Possibly due to lead free solder. Reflowing a board for a few minutes in the oven seems now to be standard practice whenever a TV main board comes in which locks up/freezes/crashes. It will usually fix it for about a day or so.I'm sure it's possible to do it right but I am not seeing it at the moment.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2012, 03:49:45 am
content: In general, the CPU and motherboard are upgraded as a set, so I don't have any problem with the two being integrated. Reliability is not a good argument against doing so, since the socket would have to be soldered on anyways. (If anything, it would be more reliable since the socket is an extra point of failure.)

author: T4P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2012, 04:36:43 am
content: Now ... lead-free solder is brittle, end of topic.What happens if you use them in computers with 1kg aluminium heatsinks hanging off the poor IHS and having lots of force tug on the CPU with the lead-free solder?Unless RoHS is abolished i think it's a really bad idea to introduce BGA soldered-on motherboards for high-end CPUs, aka the ones having 130W TDP figuresAnd next? The reason why CPUs have always been socketed is for easy user choice, like if you want this low-end CPU in a high-end motherboard (which some people tend to do) like example a FX-4100 in a FX990 motherboard you don't have to be stuck with choices because clearly in the past you were stuck with choices like for say the Z77 motherboards only comes in i7 choices and none of the i3 or i5Get what i mean now?But if they are going to ruin their own future by going BGA-ish, i hope AMD doesn't follow or else enthusiasts like me have to content with buying crappy PCs that have to be sent for repair every 6 months and run at the top of their temperature range and even so have very high markups on everythingThe "cheap" pre-built ones only have a 5400rpm HDD, okay, when was the last time anyone thought a desktop 5400rpm HDD was DECENT? It's nowhere near that.I don't really want to think of desktops as laptops next time with all the BGA chips, in fact i believe all ultrabook laptop chips are FCBGAYeah, they are killing off LGA (which imo, has a excellent CPU retaining device) with broadwell

author: ejeffrey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2012, 05:50:20 am
content: Quote from: T4P on November 27, 2012, 04:36:43 amMaybe you should get on the phone with intel and explain to them how stupid they are for not realizing this. Obviously they have not thought this through at all and won't have considered provisions for mechanical support for the heatsink. Especially since modern CPUs exclusively use the socket/pins to support the heatsink, they probably wouldn't think about any alternatives. Give me a break.QuoteThis is just nonsense. Others in this thread have made this claim too, that cheap PCs from tier-1 OEMs are somehow unreliable. This couldn't be further from the truth. Overall even the cheap Dells are more reliable than home-brew PCs. Considerably more reliable. They are assembled from similar parts, but under more reproducable conditions and with far fewer opportunities for damage to components due to mishandling. Enthusiast builds don't even have a chance: oftentimes the damage comes before you even get your hands on the parts, especially with hard drives. Rough handling or poor packaging for shipment of OEM hard drives by resellers like newegg is a major cause of premature failure. They better control ESD and are better engineered against vibration than home builders are really able to do. A few more minor issues are that their component choices, while not usually high end, are known to be relatively free of hardware/driver conflicts.Dell and HP really have no choice here. They are selling these PCs with warranties and support contracts to businesses and non-technical users for which providing support under warranty is extremely expensive. They just have no choice but to make them reliable. Look, I still build my own PCs -- I like to pick exactly which components I use, I like to max out the memory and buy a relatively high end video card, and I like to use SSDs where it is still especially important to know the brand and model since so many of them are duds.QuoteThe $330 dell I just pulled up on the first try has a 7200 RPM drive. I don't know where you are getting this. Sure there are models out there that have 5400 RPM drives (especially SFF systems), but it is certainly not universal and evidence suggests there is not a large premium on the 7200 RPM models.Build your own PC if you want, and there are still some good reasons out there to do it. It is just that most people around here seem to just be deluding themselves, or they simply haven't paid attention to what the big boys have been doing in the past decade.

author: peter.mitchell
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2012, 06:33:17 am
content: I just see this as intel passing the cost onto motherboard manufacturers, sure they won't have to mount a socket, just a CPU, but they'll have to stock an entire line of a board with different CPUs just so someone buys the same on, then retailers will have to stock them ect ect ect.

author: AlfBaz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2012, 06:46:58 am
content: QuoteI don't want to seem troublesome, but how are you coming to that conclusion? How would you know how many people world wide have built their own and how many of those have had issues.Anyhow I'd be more interested in seeing if this is been done for engineering or commercial reasons

author: Prizmatic
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2012, 06:49:46 am
content: Easier to build in an obsolescence period when integrated, and a cheap way to get higher speeds while placing the burden on mobo manufacturers. It'll be interesting to see AMD's response to this. Anyone thinking this will be beneficial to the consumer has lost the plot.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2012, 06:58:28 am
content: if using socketless BGA'lish CPU will enable the tech to clock up further to say at 5GHz, i will start to make a saving now to get the CPU/MB combo. i agree with most people here, the "real" socketed CPU upgrade will inevitably upgrade the MB as well due to pin or psu incompatibility (PSU and RAM change as well!), that was my past experience, so there's not much point in socketed CPU anymore. for those of you who still love tinkering with CPU+MB combo, get a QFN ARM or FPGA or something with their socket soldered on homebrew pcb and do your stuffs there, "real CPU" is for real works, my 2cnts. btw bga'lish is coming to DIYers community now, so its just a matter of "buying a reflow machine and changing CPU" is going to be the trend, if its ever will be still that way.

author: rr100
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2012, 07:10:37 am
content: Quote from: Psi on November 26, 2012, 10:08:30 pmI confirm, there are a few CPUs that need some electrical workaround to unlock multipliers and such but Q6600 isn't one of them. It is overclocked quite often but I can't understand why, it is one of the oldest quads and it is in fact two rather hot dual cores put together (not a "real" quad). It has a max TDP (stock) of 105W! I suspect most people overclocking it don't provide anywhere near the cooling required but don't have serious sustained CPU loads (and when they do Intel is still pretty good at throttling stuff before burning or even crashing).

author: peter.mitchell
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2012, 07:20:22 am
content: If you used a motherboard which did not have the required settings, EG, and OEM Dell motherboard or whatnot, you could connect certain pins to change the FSB multiplier and overclock it on a motherboard with limited choices. Also, if you want to call it a "hot" CPU based on TDP, the processors using the nehalem architecture are far, far, far hotter, they have a TDP of 130W, but the difference is that kentsfield processors never came close to their TDP, nehalem processors sat right on it.

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2012, 08:39:19 am
content: I still remember when Socket 370 was around... that one lasted a long time.BGAs can still be put in sockets, although they tend to be somewhat expensive.

author: ejeffrey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2012, 09:43:08 am
content: Quote from: AlfBaz on November 27, 2012, 06:46:58 amI have talked to sysadmins at a couple of large organizations that transitioned from either building their own PCs or buying from a local system builder that just built systems from off-the-shelf parts to buying Dell or HP, and saw their hardware failure rates drop. There is some room for uncertainty here, since only a couple of individual builders are involved even if the number of systems is large -- it could be that those particular builders were bad. Still, without more information I think it is fair to take those as representatives of average DIY builders.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2012, 10:00:36 am
content: Quote from: ejeffrey on November 27, 2012, 05:50:20 amBut, think about this. Nvidia thought about it very carefully when they moved to lead-free. Oh, does anyone remember the BGA saga? It's still giving problems today, with 12 month old chipsets...What about Microsoft? They couldn't fix the actual BGA problem on the Xbox 360 so they shrunk the die to reduce power consumption. It can still RROD, but probably 5-10 years later, so who cares, it's not there problem and why haven't you bought the Xbox 720 yet?Oh, even Sony has lots of problems with their PS3...What about HTC? Yeah, their tablets have problems too, and they use a couple of watt CPUs...

author: T4P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2012, 05:02:46 pm
content: Quote from: ejeffrey on November 27, 2012, 05:50:20 amUltimately being locked-down on hardware front and having to send the whole PC back to the OEMs when it breaks down? You know, i don't want to buy another HP again for a very simple reason : They design the cooling to run on the edge, if i wanted to bother with the cooling i'll bother with the rest of the PCWell on the topic of ESD, i have just been back to the PC building scene it isn't a concern for me is it? ESD desk mats ... esd ground straps .. ESD monitors, you name it i have it.And wait, how many times do i hear of a harddisk damaged by ESD due to mishandling? Nope. Never did, swapped in hundreds of harddisks a year and nothing happens even with bare fingers (which i don't) and i can just leave the harddisk in a static bag forever even if i touched it with bare handsHarddisks and CPUs might be zapped by ESD but heck, in a humid country you don't really bother with it anymore especially when local techs don't bother with ESD apart from touching a grounded item before touching anything in a PCA key note i give is the mad overpricing on desktops, i can build a 650$ (That's considered low-cost here) desktop with a quad core AMDBut a 650$ Acer? Only gives me a stupidly low resolution 19" and a AMD E-350 ... Forget about intel here, they start from 899$ OEM desktops onwards unless you bought a pentium and that goes from 799 onwardsPlease. I do not want to be tied down by the OEMs. My dad who is a IT professional is not entirely happy about being tied down either, just told him intel is probably killing off socket by Broadwell in a few years time and he says being tied-down is making us even more choice-lessRight now you can pair a Z77X and a i3-3120 (There are people who does this) but in the future they will be definitely be selling Broadwell by "grades"That's NOT a good thing. But i do know how CPUs are going to be integrated tightly next time but southbridge choices will remain for now, it's the only way we can choose what peripherals easily like if i wanted a AMD A10-5800k i can choose if i wanted 4 USB 3.0 with three PCI-E x16 slots and a boatload of SATA ports (SSDs can use the lasts electrically x8 slot) or 2 USB 3.0 with two PCI-E slots or All USB 2.0 with only one PCI-E slotI doubt you could anymore with soldered-on chips as manufacturers will definitely mate the cheap motherboards to only low-end CPUs to save cost

author: poptones
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2012, 07:13:01 pm
content: http://www.zdnet.com/blog/projectfailures/dell-lawsuit-pattern-of-deceit/10165I worked for Gateway at a time when they did the exact same thing - ask leading questions about the "oil cans" but don't tell them why, then offer to replace the motherboard again without telling them why. And didn't Sony have to face down a similar suit?http://www.techspot.com/community/topics/motherboard-failure-issue-on-dell-optiplex-980.169232/http://community.spiceworks.com/topic/164731-optiplex-390-fails-to-boot-after-sitting-off-all-weekendMy Q6600 system doesn't have a fan on the CPU heatsink and has never run above 59 even in a hot dry arizona house. And can you even buy an off the shelf system with a raptor drive? What's the difference if I buy an off the shelf system and then have to rip the guts out of it and replace everything or just buy the parts and build it myself? Am I not putting the hard drives, the memory, even the motherboard at risk?Please. I've had people ask me about building their own systems, I tell them to buy a mac, at least it has good support and it's not TOO much more than building it yourself (oh the irony). But if you know what you are doing and do the research before buying the parts you can build a MUCH better system than you can buy for the same money.

author: Bored@Work
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2012, 11:09:54 pm
content: Quote from: poptones on November 27, 2012, 07:13:01 pmThere is just this simple problem. The mentioned money already buys you a usable, does what it says on the tin, good enough PC. Without the hassle of having to select components, hunting incompatibilities, and cutting fingers on the shoddy PC case metal.These days, a garden-variety supermarket PC does it, except for gamers. But gamers are anyhow crazy. The times when an advanced consumer really had to worry about the particular chipset or CPU are long gone. They are even gone for an engineer. And if you take into account that it takes a lot of time just to keep up with all the AMD and Intel CPU variants they are releasing every few month, I'd rather get 80% performance from an off-the-shelf PC than wasting time to pimp a PC to get performance I hardly need. I give a flying fart about BIOS settings, and if you ask me, BIOS settings should be removed from PCs. I have better things to do than wading through CPU and BIOS tech-bable.I have to think very hard (or look it up) if you ask me about the clock frequency or number of cores of the PC I am typing this on. Because it is fast enough. I think it has a few GB of main memory and something like a TB of disk space. But I really don't care. Because it is enough. I don't know the hard disk brand, nor its cache size. I don't even know which graphics chip it has. Maybe on-board graphics. I don't care. And yes, this is one of my PCs, not something I just lent.I did build my own PCs when I was young. Even in these days I hardly ever upgraded a CPU. Typically, when it was time to upgrade a PC it turned out that a new CPU for the old motherboard's socket was too expensive. Instead the CPU with the best price performance ration required a new socket. So not only the old CPU went, but also the old motherboard. And with the motherboard the RAM needed to go, and the math copro. And every few years all plugin cards, because the bus changed. Oh, and the PSU needed to go to. And when the motherboard form factor changed the old case needed to go, to.

author: WhiteFireDragon
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2012, 11:15:56 pm
content: If this turns out true, then AMD will have a huge pie of the enthusiast market.

author: poptones
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2012, 11:29:36 pm
content: Sometimes I have to think really hard just to remember what kind of car I drive. It has four wheels, is reliable, and gets 25mpg or more. It's "good enough" so who cares?You won't see me basing this personal experience as a basis to discount the needs or desires of others.A i3 machine with a 500GB hard drive is not "good enough" for me or my needs. And I'm not a gamer, I don't even own a videogame. Try working on a 4000px image with 15 layers on a "regular" machine. The one thing that makes me consider upgrading, in fact, is the fact my motherboard supports only 8GB of ram and I run out so often.

author: T4P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 28, 2012, 05:19:11 am
content: Quote from: poptones on November 27, 2012, 11:29:36 pmIndeed. I think Quad-core CPUs from both camps are the minimum to be "good enough" and includes the ability for 16GB which i guess is too much for me i guessQuote from: Bored@Work on November 27, 2012, 11:09:54 pmYou don't really to select components here either, the PC components sellers can sell you a entire system at almost the same price without you having to select.Cutting fingers? What, you bought a 10$ case?I previously mentioned about overpriced desktops and i'll give you another idea, i can have a 7770-equipped desktop with a FX8350 at 899 but if i bought a OEM 899 system which only has a i3 will only get me a GT610, that's like a MASSIVE differenceEspecially when a A10-5800k system that i can get at $650 (Extra goodies like a overbuilt PSU and a beautiful case as well as a fully spec'd motherboard) has a 7660D that eats the HD4000 out for lunch!

author: HardBoot
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 29, 2012, 07:57:24 am
content: This has been rumoured for a very long time and kinda started with Atom.Intel wants to stranglehold/monopolize the motherboard market.AMD would have to have BGA CPUs too to compete price wise, but they don't seem interested in screwing anyone, they have a big enthusiast market to keep happy.I'd say I buy 1.5 CPUs per motherboard so it's a pretty big deal to me, just a few days ago my friend replaced his dual with a quad, no having to blow $100 on a new motherboard.

author: poptones
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 29, 2012, 08:11:23 am
content: $100 for a motherboard? That used to be my rule of thumb - I didn't buy any single part that was more than $100. That's all changed now, it seems you can't even get a decent motherboard or cpu for less than 200 bucks.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 29, 2012, 10:16:28 am
content: Quote from: poptones on November 27, 2012, 11:29:36 pmyou either work in Hollywood or a Photography nuts. may i suggest Paralleled Workstations?

author: T4P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 29, 2012, 05:38:33 pm
content: Quote from: poptones on November 29, 2012, 08:11:23 amNot really. A decent CPU can be had for less than 200 bucks. That motherboard is just way too far high-end into the "Value" market, it's overly decent