What to look at when assessing new Pick and Place machines - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Mangozac
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2019, 05:05:58 am
content: We're planning to setup a relatively low volume (currently <20k boards/year) SMT line in our factory. New brand name machines are simply too far out of our budget (and way beyond our requirements in terms of components per hour). Used brand name machines are hard to get a hold of here and still relatively expensive. So I'm heading to Shenzhen to go and take a look at some of the more serious Chinese PnP machines on offer (i.e. non-desktop machines) from manufacturers like Torch, Kayo, YX, etc. I'm used to dealing with component suppliers in China and having been speaking with some of the SMT machine manufacturers there so I feel like I'm reaching a fair understanding of the pros and cons of buying from them.I'm curious however if anybody has any pointers as to specific things to look out for when assessing an SMT placement machine being demonstrated (and semi-automatic stencil printer and reflow oven too for that matter)?I'm familiar enough with CNC machines to get a good feel for mechanical build quality. These machines all use the ubiquitous Yamaha CL style feeder, which seems pretty bulletproof. I will be visiting some factories with these SMT lines in operation, so I should be able to get a feel for pick success rates, etc.Any further pointers?

author: Jeroen3
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2019, 05:45:15 am
content: Software.You can have the most fancy machine humanly possible, if the software is crap it's useless.Maybe you can visit a local trader first. Beware though, some are trying to rip you off.

author: Mangozac
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2019, 07:17:08 am
content: Ahh yes, I do intend to have a good play around with the software too!What are you specifically referring to by local trader? Local to me?

author: Jeroen3
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2019, 07:22:43 am
content: Here (NL) there is a trader in used electronics manufacturing equipment. PNP, Ovens, washers, inspection units. They go all over europe to buy and install used machines.But their behavior is a bit strange, so I will not recommend or name them.

author: Mangozac
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2019, 07:45:55 am
content: Ahh I see. Yes, I have spoken with some very reputable local machine traders but the cost is still quite high. I'm not married to the idea of buying a Chinese machine, but I feel it's worth the exercise to evaluate them fully.

author: SMTech
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2019, 08:08:35 am
content: You need to look at every step with the software. Creating a component, creating a package, testing/tweaking the vision, importing your data, handling an error during placement, how much work it is to swap from one PCB job to another.On the hardware side things to look out for are tool-changers, component heights (both through the feeder and capability of the head).For reflow you can poke around one in a factory for a general feel of how well built they are but you will need to find other users (ideally ones who like to verify their process with a test profile frequently) to get an impression of how often they blow heaters,fans & controllers which is where the reputation of some of the cheaper or unbranded Chinese convection reflow systems falls down. Other than that take your most delicate and your most dense PCB out there and reflow them with some probes on. Good ovens should have even heating and be very consistent as well as hitting their target profiles very closely as they should also be very responsive.You should be able to find 2nd user DEK printers just about anywhere, lots of them, lots of expertise for spares & repairs built like tanks and affordable, well worth looking. On the semi-auto chinese front, they all seem to have copied/make the same design, I doubt there is much to choose between them.

author: mrpackethead
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2019, 08:34:17 am
content: Quote from: SMTech on October 22, 2019, 08:08:35 amThis is very sage. find others.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2019, 08:40:48 am
content: When looking at software, look at how it deals with errors - e.g. a jammed feeder, and how the situation gets sorted. Manually jam a tape and see what happens.The ideal situation is for (at least as an option) for it to carry on with the rest of the job and only require attention at the end, so all issues can be dealt with at once. I'm not aware of any Chinese P&P software that does this.If you have a lot of different jobs, then ease and speed of setup is important, e.g. can you import more than just the x/y co-ordinates (i.e. height, part library names etc,) , so you can write software to make the process simpler.Try some difficult parts, like inductors (heavy and rough solder can make vision tricky)See what happens if you cut the power during operation - can you continue the job after restartingCan you define custom tray feeders for oddball parts.What is the maximum useable part height, verify that this is actually achievable, and if they claim there is a way to work round height issues, ask them to show exactly how this is done.And don't forget to come back here and report your experiences.

author: SMdude
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2019, 08:50:11 am
content: Take a look at the Smallsmt machines. They are produced in China under another name.The software is much better than the traditional Chinese machines and I believe that the communications protocol/commands are in the user manual so if you wanted you could switch over to Openpnp for the software, which is getting pretty good now. Also their distributor from Germany was pretty active on here and easy to talk to.

author: Mangozac
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2019, 12:23:15 pm
content: Thanks for the replies everybody - some really good points!Mike, I have found the same in that in the case of a pick error all of the Chinese machines I've looked at simply have X number of attempts and then stop and flag an error. The thing is though, for a machine that's being used at relatively low volume only 2-3 days a week does this really matter? I suppose it depends how frequently they have pick errors!Likewise, does being able to resume after a power failure really matter? We lose power at most once per year so in the off chance it happened in the middle of the board then we can decide to either wipe off all the jellybean parts and start again of place the final few parts by hand. It would make sense if the software had an ability to restart from a particular component...Tool changers don't seem to be an option at this price point and I've read arguments both ways regarding the necessity. Again it seems to be one of those performance trade-offs that may not be such a big deal at our volume.

author: Reckless
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2019, 02:06:09 pm
content: I was in the same situation you were in 18 months ago. I came very close to buying a chinese PnP machine but Thank God a number people talked me out of it. I recommend older used pick place machines that have a very large user base. I have Universal GSMs I am selling for $2,500 and parts/spares/feeders are easy to come by - sometimes free. They work great but run old software (OS2). You can also look at some other brands like Yamaha, Samsung, mydata, etc. Personally older proven machines are a much better bet than trying to make a Chinese machine work. I personally hate older used equipment especially for something like this but new machines are soo cost prohibitive. Recently there was an auction nearby for SMT equipment and they had a nearly new SMT Max (high end chinese machine) and no one would touch it. It had to be scrapped. The reason being is because they don't work. It took me a long time not to believe Chinese specs as their manufacturing and engineering is not up to the rest of the world. I would have thought given how much they manufacture that they would be able to copy an older machine but for some reason they have not perfected this. Precision and repeatability is not their thing. They are excellent for making something you use once and it breaks (see Dollar store).

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2019, 03:39:34 pm
content: Quote from: Mangozac on October 22, 2019, 12:23:15 pmMaybe I'm over-sensitive to this as my machine has poor feeders. It does deal sensibly with the situation by carrying on with other parts, but if it didn't it would be infuriating.QuoteNot just power failures, but anything that makes it stop, including user error.Depends a lot on your jobs but could potentially cost quite a lot in unuseable partsHowever lack of these features is an indicator that the software hasn't been thought through very well, and may be lacking in other ways.Another thing to check is how well it handles panelisation and cross-outs. You ideally want the machine to be able to panelise data so it is aware of which parts are in which panel, so individual panels can be omitted at run-time.If it doesn;t then at least a graphical representation of the panel, and ability to select parts via GUI to omit is a second-best.QuoteThe main issue here is how many different parts you have, which dictates how many tools you need. IME this is typically 3 to 4.The primary thing you want is for it to do the whole job in one go without attending to it, so you want either a minimum of 4 heads, or a tool changer. If you have a changer, the head count only adds speed, and is only a benefit if the software is smart enough to use multiple heads effectively, ideally without the user having to do much explicitly.Given the chouice between 1 head and changer or multiple heads, I'd normally prefer the former, but YMMVThe stupid thing is that tool changers are really easy to implement, and (assuming a suitable head design) don't need any additional motors etc. so it's odd that they are not standard even on low-end machines.

author: Mangozac
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2019, 10:00:57 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on October 22, 2019, 03:39:34 pmThat makes sense, I have no doubt it would be frustrating in that case. From what I've read, the Yamaha CL style feeders (and even the Chinese clones of them) are very reliable if you look after them.Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on October 22, 2019, 03:39:34 pmHowever lack of these features is an indicator that the software hasn't been thought through very well, and may be lacking in other ways. OK yes, that makes sense. A machine that doesn't have the ability to resume from a specific point (just not necessarily automatically as is the case with many Western machines upon power fail) would indeed be quite poor and frankly I'd be very surprised if they're not capable of this.Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on October 22, 2019, 03:39:34 pmYes, that's a good point, I'll add that to the list.Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on October 22, 2019, 03:39:34 pmI'm looking at 6/8 head machines, so based on your comments tool change is probably not a critical feature. You're right though - I wonder why they don't bother with this?Quote from: Reckless on October 22, 2019, 02:06:09 pmI disagree with you on painting all Chinese equipment with the same brush. There are horses for courses and while the Chinese machines may be unable to compete with Western machines in the mid to high end, this doesn't mean that they are unsuitable for the right application. You're lucky - the US has an abundance of used machines that can be picked up for cheap. Unfortunately here in Australia the market is extremely limited. Yamaha/Phillips/Assembleon machines are so coveted that nobody ever gets rid of them and when they do they are snapped up immediately. Exchange rates plus freight costs mean that importing a used machine from the US is an expensive exercise, still fraught with risk.SMT Max are low end machines far inferior to the ones I'm looking at - I wouldn't touch one either!Quote from: SMdude on October 22, 2019, 08:50:11 amWhile I do like the idea of Openpnp compatibility, ultimately in my opinion this style of machine isn't suitable for the level we'll be operating at.

author: Reckless
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2019, 02:27:08 am
content: Australian market is much different animal. Also I think they have a better understanding of how a china engineer thinks. Not like that in US. Let me know if you find a reputable chinese brand pick n place, I searched heavily and for low volume there were options but nothing I could run daily.I do like Torch ovens, chinese wire stripping machines, cheap chinese solder pots, when it comes to low tech they have it nailed. Just bought a chinese solder robot, not sure what I am getting.

author: GerardG
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2019, 08:09:08 am
content: Hello,Can you tell me where you are located? We have a dealer network in Europe for the Neoden line.We also have a service department and spare parts at stock in the Netherlands.The Neoden4 has a lot of features that can be found on a bigger machine. Next to these features we are working (beta testing) on software that can convert the CSV to the a Neoden ready file.It can import Eagle, KiCad or Altium and links your feeders and nozzles to the components.Quote from: Mangozac on October 22, 2019, 07:45:55 am

author: Mangozac
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2019, 10:23:37 am
content: Quote from: GerardG on October 23, 2019, 08:09:08 amI'm in Australia, so unfortunately your dealer network is not much use to me!I have sufficiently investigated the Neoden products and while I can see their suitability for very low volume and prototyping work, I don't believe they are suitable for proper production like we are doing.Quote from: Reckless on October 23, 2019, 02:27:08 amI will of course report back with my findings! Like I said before, when you put them in the right context and aren't buying solely on lowest price I think Chinese products can be absolutely fine.

author: IconicPCB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2019, 10:39:31 am
content: Where in Oz are You?

author: Mangozac
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2019, 11:48:31 am
content: Quote from: IconicPCB on October 23, 2019, 10:39:31 amSent you a PM

author: Alicelllly2020
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2019, 02:52:53 am
content: Hi Mangozac,Nice to meet you, this is Alice from Neoden.Except for Neoden4, we also have larger pick and place machines/SMT lines for batch production that suit your requirements.If convenient, may I have your contact info to send more information to you?No hesitate to contact me if you have any interests.Email: sales4@neodentech.comSkype: Alice-NeodenBest regards,Alice

author: GerardG
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2019, 01:15:06 pm
content: Don't forget that you need to easily convert files for the machine.

author: Mangozac
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2019, 10:14:10 pm
content: Quote from: Alicelllly2020 on October 24, 2019, 02:52:53 amHi Alice, thanks for the message. I have considered Neoden but from my research I'm not convinced that the Neoden7 is a good solution for our requirements. I will perhaps get in touch after I have reviewed the other machines in the coming weeks.Quote from: GerardG on October 24, 2019, 01:15:06 pmOf course, but with text based files it is not difficult to write a script to do this.

author: Harjit
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2019, 12:07:02 am
content: This was an illuminating article:https://www.sparkfun.com/sparkx/blog/2586I would reach out to Sparkfun and Macrofab and see if they will share their learnings.

author: Mangozac
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2019, 12:29:42 am
content: Quote from: Harjit on October 25, 2019, 12:07:02 amThanks for the suggestion, but I had read that article and there are several reasons why that kind of machine isn't suitable for what we're doing. That kind of desktop machine is fine for simple, low volume boards and prototyping but for actual volume production however it's far from being up to the task.

author: Alicelllly2020
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 28, 2019, 08:35:13 am
content: Sure, thanks Mangozac.If you need any technical info or other details, please feel free to contact me.Best regards,Alice

author: JPlocher
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 28, 2019, 05:18:49 pm
content: I've got the big brother of their system (the CHMT48) which has a built in Linux system instead of an external window's computer, as well as double the number of feeders.It is, for what it is, OK. Not Great, but also not Crap. I've used it to produce about a thousand boards in the last year and a half.The software works relatively well, though some areas are not well documented and don't really seem to work well (e.g., fiducial mark setup and vacuum detect calibration...)It isn't a $10k or a $100k machine - it has limits, and if those limits touch on your needs, it might not be a good fit.It is also "made in China, supported from China" - which means language barriers as well as capability issues; many of these companies are not much more than integration or assembly operations that combine software/firmware from elsewhere with their own servos and sheet metal. Training is "YouTube" and a sloppy user manual, don't expect maintenance or diagnostic documentation, and you are pretty much on your own for spare parts...One of the most constraining limits for me is the lack of interchangeable feeders; loading, reloading and changing out reels of parts is disruptive and time consuming.This encourages a board design pattern that focuses on using a common set of source componentsThe real bugaboo for me has been the machine calibration itself. Over time the relationship between the camera's idea of the feeder's pick location and the pick pin & nozzle's idea of the same has diverged several mm, and CharmHigh has been unable tounderstandthe issue, much less fix it.* They finally sent me the system password and told me to go into the undocumented machine calibration system pages and blindly play with arrays of calibration offsets with no way to back up or restore the settings - and no way to recover if (when!) I screwed up!If I were starting over again, I would not purchase this system - I'd look at alternatives that support Yamaha feeders and have the possibility of connecting to OpenPnP.If you could live with the lack of easily changed feeders/reels, this system would make a good base for a solid OpenPnP rebuild - but it would entail stripping out ALL the embedded electronics and replacing them with a SmoothieBoard...-JohnThere is no measurable mechanical slop - or mechanical adjustment available - between the head mounted camera and the nozzles; it looks to be a software issue somewhere in the system's camera/head calibration code where it measures the correct locations, but then adds a constant error to some results... I've sent them several rounds of videos and photos, and it has become clear that they are only system integrators, and that they don't really understand how the machine works inside...

author: Mangozac
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 28, 2019, 10:58:24 pm
content: Quote from: JPlocher on October 28, 2019, 05:18:49 pmThanks for the comments John. This is pretty much exactly as I understood - for a production environment interchangeable feeders are an absolute necessity. I'm feeling confident that these "mid-range" Chinese machines wont be too far off the right track, so it will be interesting to evaluate them in person.

author: JPlocher
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 29, 2019, 04:04:08 pm
content: > evaluate them in person.Absolutely! While a factory tour is nice, it would be better to find someone who has one and is willing to have you come look and, as we say here, kick the tires...There will be dozens of things that matter to you that you won't discover in talking to the vendor, either because they don't want to point out their limitations or because you get focused on the bright and shiny glitter they are selling :-)Ask your vendor(s) to provide local references for you to check out - if they won't/can't, that's a clue, too!> "mid-range" Chinese machinesThere seem to be stratifications of designs being produced - the low end where cheap feeders and crappy software are used to lower the cost, the next level up with Yamaha Pneumatic feeders and multiple heads, a half-step up from there with similar designs but "more feeders, more nozzles" - then you get into the >$US20k stuff. If you find yourself getting into this higher end, the recurring advice here is to seriously look at the USED big iron machines that cost $50K to $100K new 15 years ago, but can be had for $2k-$10k if you can pick up and transport them...-John

author: SMTech
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 29, 2019, 08:48:43 pm
content: That is one of the biggest advantages to the big name machines, they or their representative knows where all the machines are and who among those might let you onto their site to see the line, talk to the users/decision makers or both ideally you want somewhere that has had the machine long enough to get a real feel for its pros and cons during use. Often this is the only way you will get to see the machine, its quite common for re-sellers not to have a demo unit unless they've just done a big event as the manufacturer makes them buy it. The downside to that is you can't rock up to a 3rd party factory with some data and a box of parts and try to make something.

author: SMTech
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 29, 2019, 09:12:26 pm
content: Quote from: JPlocher on October 29, 2019, 04:04:08 pmI could be wrong but I think most of the ~$20k pick and place are slightly bigger versions of the ~$10K desktop machines plus a few brands that start at that point. There's another tier above that ~$40-50K that are really quite fast, have nozzle changes (only some £20k ones do), a step up on the software front, encoders & electric feeders. E.g Faroad or Moje

author: Mangozac
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 29, 2019, 10:15:13 pm
content: I agree that if moving towards the US$20k+ Chinese machines it would most likely be preferable to instead go for a 10-15 year old Yamaha/Phillips/Assembleon machine. The area I'm investigating however is the circa US$15k mark, which provides very good value for money on brand new mid-range Chinese machines with modest placement rates (<10k CPH).I'll be able to confirm next week when I see them in person, but from the online research I've done (such as evaluating close up photos of various machine features) there is a significant step up from the desktop machines to the proper standalone machines. The standalone machines look far more solidly built and less like they were assembled from a trip to the CNC parts store. This is particularly evident around the feeder mounts and the multi-head designs.I have been speaking to Western users of the brand I'm particularly interested in and so far the feedback has been very positive. There have been no complaints with the machines physically but the software has had a common point of "does the job but a lot of scope for improvement" (as is typical).

author: mrpackethead
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2019, 12:26:06 am
content: Quote from: Mangozac on October 29, 2019, 10:15:13 pma 10-15 year old Yamaha/Assemblon can be purchased for sub $15k. I have bougth three for less than that. If you buy them from a 'dealer', you'll be paying > $15k, but they sell out of factorys for ~$7-10k.. (YV-100ii),, $12k for YV-100XG ) with around 20,000 hours.

author: Mangozac
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2019, 01:19:38 am
content: Quote from: mrpackethead on October 30, 2019, 12:26:06 amIf I could find a local YV-100XG for that kind of price I'd be on it in a heartbeat (I don't want one of the older DOS based machines). The problem is that I've been told by multiple sources that the Yamaha machines are so coveted that they simply don't come up that often. Waiting around for a machine that may or may not become available isn't a valid business plan at this point.A 15+ year old machine comes with a fair degree of risk - not that I'd suggest buying a new Chinese machine is risk-free but it's a different type of risk and arguably more easily manageable.

author: SMTech
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2019, 09:16:40 am
content: Quote from: Mangozac on October 30, 2019, 01:19:38 amWell you should be able to get a trained engineer onto your premises for support or training for an old Philips/Assembleon//iPulse/Yamaha and with China you are 100% reliant on yourself supported by email/logmein/QQ phones if your'e lucky. You can have the Yamaha type machines calibrated during a service, that usually involves an expensive calibration plate that a service engineer would own but an end user might not. I have no idea how or even if the Chinese machines get calibrated.I wouldn't get too hung up on exact model matches, also I suspect one of the reasons they might be getting hard to find is age. 15 year old machines won't have any value on the books of whoever is getting rid of them, so they'll cheerfully scrap them, trying to sell it can cost money. Or they trade them in at inflated prices in place of a discount and the vendor scraps them, equally they may simply not have been all that popular in your region due to taxes or exchange rates at the time. When I have seen that kind of machine crop up in the UK they have usually been branded Philips/Assembleon but by far the easiest machines to find are MyData & Europlacer (low volume high mix) and then a good smattering of Mirae & Samsung (whose dealers actively refurb older units,) Siemens also seems to have been historically popular with those places that worked in volume.If you haven't tried it already, it could be worth talking to your Yamaha dealer directly (you really can't rely on websites) they could be pulling something out that suits you right now...

author: 48X24X48X
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2019, 04:25:44 pm
content: Quote from: Mangozac on October 22, 2019, 05:05:58 amMyself took a trip to SZ to visit HWGC (machines resell by XY as SMT660/SMT880/SMT550) 2 months ago. The HWGC office in SZ is actually a small production office too. So, you won't get to try out anything as they are a running production line. This office also doesn't have English speaking guys as XY is actually based in Zhejiang province! You'll be on your own. I'm not sure about Kayo's office in SZ though.I would recommend to go to Beijing instead. Beijing is where all these guys are located (Kayo, Torch, Huawei Guochang, Boreytech, Bo Vi (looks like Kayo re-batch or the other way round)). Although some might have relocated their factory elsewhere (due to pollution mitigation policy in 2018) but their main office is still in Beijing. The only other 2 manufacturer of similar sized machine that are outside of Beijing are Charmhigh (Changsha) and ZhengBang (Zhejiang).Instead of doing your regular SMT machine factory visit, do something like this instead:Bring your own PCB in panel form with side strip and fiducial marks. Best if it is a board that you are very familiar with and can remember well all the parts.Bring the file of the pick and place position of the PCB in format that can be easy manipulated (example: csv).Bring some components in reel and best if include those harder components you wanted to test (example: 0.3mm pitch or anything you think is crucial to your board). If you couldn't bring the reels, just buy them off Taobao/LCSC and ship to the factory prior to your visit. And for loose items, you can always bring tray or possibly ask the factory for tray. You don't have to bring all components, just some to give you a feel on how the entire process would turn out.Watch their software video prior to the visit and ask them to demo it again maybe using their evaluation PCB. Then you can repeat with your own board and parts.By going through the entire process, you will know how well the machine is from both hardware and software point of view. You will probably able to figure out what are the shortcomings too.Forget about shinny website and all those sort of jazz. It can be deceiving. Go there and see it for yourself. Don't forget to tell them what you want to do there. Being honest upfront helps!

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2019, 05:04:30 pm
content: If you do buy an old machine don't forget to include the feeders and spare consumer parts like nozzles.If they don't come with the sale you might look at an additional $10k+ to purchase enough feeders.

author: mrpackethead
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2019, 07:42:56 pm
content: QuoteYes, procuring one directly is a challenge, and does have a degree of luck assocatied with it. But it can be done, if you have time, and are willing to invest the time. Its also much easier, if you've had some experience with the machines, you'll know what to look for in a new machine. And you also get a bit skilled up at fixing things. if you have to call H&R to fix it, they will try and blow magic pixy dust in your face at $200/hour. Not really an option.. An agent ends up giving you the hand holding. My YV100-ii's which i bought at auction came as is, where as. I'd had some experience with them before, but it was a learning exercise.It can be done, and the reward is tehre, if you have time. But its potentially harder than having someone come and commission it for you. You have to figure that out for yourself. If you do go there and get it up and running, you'll have reliable machines that will be good performers.

author: mrpackethead
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2019, 07:43:40 pm
content: Quote from: Kjelt on October 30, 2019, 05:04:30 pmYamaha CL 8mm feeders about $55 each. Nozzles $15 each.

author: Mangozac
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2019, 10:04:10 pm
content: Quote from: SMTech on October 30, 2019, 09:16:40 amI have indeed done just that and he was one of the people who told me not to hold my breath! Not only do they not come up often but I'm also at the end of a long list of people who want one.Quote from: SMTech on October 30, 2019, 09:16:40 amThis is true. We've been dealing with Chinese companies for long enough now that I'm used to dealing with remote support like that. The other difference is that the support on a new machine from China is free, whereas the support on an obsolete machine from a local dealer comes at an eye-watering cost!Quote from: 48X24X48X on October 30, 2019, 04:25:44 pmActually, most of the companies I've researched are manufacturing to some degree in Shenzhen (as you say, their main offices are in Beijing and Hangzhou areas). My reason for going to Shenzhen however is because I can see several manufacturers in one go at the Electronic Equipment Industry expo (http://www.cieeie.com/) and visit some of the local factories running lines from these manufacturers (taking my own interpreter of course).Quote from: mrpackethead on October 30, 2019, 07:42:56 pmI'm very familiar with CNC equipment and have no doubt that getting a machine up and running is within my abilities. There are however limitations on how much time I have available and how much it's worth spending on spare parts if a machine bought "as is" turns out to have serious faults. Ultimately like I said, if I could find a 10-15 year old Yamaha locally I'd be on it in a heartbeat but I'm just not confident in being able to find one any time soon.Quote from: mrpackethead on October 30, 2019, 07:43:40 pmThis is why I'm only after either a Yamaha machine or a Chinese machine that uses Yamaha feeders!

author: mrpackethead
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2019, 12:52:58 am
content: Quote from: Mangozac on October 30, 2019, 10:04:10 pmIf they are like the Australian Yamaha reps, then they are probably talkign up the value. The prices of 2nd hand PNP in .AU is just plain redicoulous!.Quote from: SMTech on October 30, 2019, 09:16:40 amI'm lucky, iv've got a great guy out of INdia, and so far we've done everthing remotely... Way cheaper than then 'local' guys ( local means a 4 hour flight away )

author: Mangozac
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2019, 01:11:03 am
content: Quote from: mrpackethead on October 31, 2019, 12:52:58 amHonestly, the price indications I've had as a package with installation and training weren't unreasonable. And while they may have been talking up the value but from what I've seen the availability remains quite sparse.

author: Mangozac
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 08, 2019, 06:23:50 am
content: OK so here's my follow-up after visiting the Shenzhen Electronic Equipment Industry Expo (http://www.cieeie.com/) this week.Firstly, the new Shenzhen World Exhibition Centre on Bao'an is absolutely mental! Phase 1 was completed in only September this year and is already enormous but when phase 2 is completed the place will be 1.5 million square metres!Attending the exhibition was really invaluable for getting a sense of the similarities and differences of the mid to high price Chinese machines, and even comparing to the higher end Juki machines that were on display. The biggest thing people don't understand about buying any kind of item in China is that they will create to the price point you want - if you want dirt cheap they will do it dirt cheap but don't expect top quality. Inspecting machines in person it's evident where the costs were cut - fortunately from what I could see this mainly seemed to be on aesthetic items such as the machine casing/powdercoating and screenprinting.Faroad SMT had an enormous stand there. Honestly their equipment was very impressive - very high build quality and an aesthetic style/finish very similar to Western pick and place machines. Their machines are on the higher end of the spectrum - high speed using electronic feeders. Would be great for higher volume production as they support feeder carts as well (so the feeders can be setup in another location and then just racked into place). I didn't get pricing as I knew they're above our budget, but online list price is US$40k+.Many manufacturers had 10+ zone reflow ovens on display. All were pretty much identical design and the pricing depends on how many of the components are foreign sourced (many of them liked to boast about how they use European VSDs like Schneider and Japanese PLCs). Shenzhen Kait Automation and Jaguar Automation both had sales girls with competent English, so they weren't difficult to talk to. Both had very good build quality and the latter also does lower end ovens for more budget pricing.The main company I was there to visit however was Kayo SMT. They're based out of Beijing and Wuxi but have a factory in Shenzhen. I spent a lot of time inspecting their 6-head and 8-head machines and was very pleased with what I saw. All of the machines in this price bracket feature a very similar base design - all use Panasonic motors and ballscrews - but each manufacturer puts their own touches on certain aspects. I quite like many of the mechanical design decisions that Kayo have made, particularly with regard to the head design. Many of the designs I saw had air lines flailing everywhere when the head moves but Kayo have a much cleaner design that I would expect results in longer lifespan for the hoses since they're not rubbing against each other and the head cowling. Their machines are nice and heavy too - during full speed operation the vibration of the machine was quite low, much less so than some of the similar machines I've inspected.On the topic of weight, from what I saw this week I wouldn't even think about a Neoden7. The net weight is only 280kg vs the 450kg of the Kayo 6 head so I just can't imagine it being stable enough to operate reliably at the speeds Neoden claim.The Kayo software seemed fine. Yes, there are certainly areas that could be improved and setting up a project does seem like a fairly long-winded task. They are however constantly making improvements to the software and I was told of some features in the pipeline that will significantly help speed up the configuration (I won't discuss them here as I'm not sure if I was told were in confidence).Jenny and Mia from Kayo were both very gracious hosts with good English. They even got used to understanding my Australian drawlI also got to inspect a Kayo line in operation, helping provide even further understanding of its capabilities. I'm the first to admit that this doesn't compare to a high end Western (or even high end Chinese) machine but my conclusion is that for the right low to medium volume applications the drawbacks are very few.Edit:I should note a few of the shortcomings that aren't immediately obvious:1. The z travel height of the Kayo 1706 is 20mm, but the standard maximum component height is only 5.5mm. Individual heads can be swapped out to a special option which facilitates up to 13mm but this apparently impacts the precision when the part is rotated. Certainly not a big deal if you reserve one head with a high nozzle just for mounting capacitors and other high, non-fine pitch parts.2. No automatic nozzle change. As mentioned by Mike earlier in this thread, it's odd that they don't offer automatic nozzle change, since mechanically it's relatively simple to do. However with 6 heads for low to medium volume applications automatic nozzle change really isn't all that important.3. Only 2 fiducials are supported. At first I was concerned that this wouldn't facilitate detecting panels that were fed in rotated 180°, but then realised that by varying the locations of the two relative to the corners the rotated board can be detected. If the fiducials are not detected properly the machine will pause with an error.

author: mrpackethead
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 08, 2019, 06:41:17 am
content: Quote from: Mangozac on November 08, 2019, 06:23:50 amOne of the best posts we've seen in this section for some time. Thanks so much.