Who the heck are "makers?" - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Leo Bodnar
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 10, 2011, 05:57:57 pm
content: Who are those "makers" that Dave mentions all the time when he refers to people tinkering with stuff.Is this a sort of a breakaway group of cool or disadvantaged youngsters that need to be specifically mentioned?It just irritates me hearing them "makers" added to motley crew of hackers, enthusiasts and amateurs.Sounds a bit PC bollocks to me like they can't just say "policemen" anymore without adding "and policewomen.""Makers" please come out and state your manifesto. Why don't you want to be simply called electronics enthusiasts, geeks or anoraks.What do you actually make? I mean as in carmakermakesmillions of cars. Not as in like "I made this cool thing once."

author: Bored@Work
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 10, 2011, 06:27:15 pm
content: As far as I know the term is an invention ofMake Magazine, to define their target audience and then sell more stuff to them.

author: saturation
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 10, 2011, 06:49:23 pm
content: If you look at the magazine, the term is so broad it goes from electronics to needle craft.http://makeprojects.com/

author: dmlandrum
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 10, 2011, 07:39:22 pm
content: Really, all it is is a convenient catch-all term for people who build their own stuff. There are lots and lots of people, indeed I would say most of the people of the western world, who never make things for their own use. They buy stuff from manufacturers all ready to go. To take this even further, there are people who have the technical and design skill and work for these manufacturers who believe this is the only way things should be. I disagree, but that's just my opinion.Referring to "makers" within our circleismore than a little redundant and confusing, because we're all used to designing and building things to solve problems, whether for work or around the house. The term is designed for use with people who don't.

author: sacherjj
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 10, 2011, 07:51:50 pm
content: Sadly, fewer and fewer folks are taught that it is OK to take things apart and see how they work. If "Maker" helps reduce that, I'm all for it.Don't get me started on how the term "Hacker" got demonized.

author: shadewind
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 10, 2011, 08:45:46 pm
content: As others have stated, it's exactly what it sounds like. Makers are people who make stuff as opposed to people who do not make stuff. Just like programmers are people who do programming.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 10, 2011, 11:42:16 pm
content: makers are the one who buy more tools

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 11, 2011, 01:45:10 am
content: Historically,at least in Australia,the term "maker" was synonomous with "Manufacturer".For instance,if a piece of equipment had no identification on the front,you would look on theback panel for the "Maker's name".I haven't heard Dave use it in any other context,but I havent seen all of the Blogs.VK6ZGO

author: Leo Bodnar
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 11, 2011, 08:28:34 am
content: Quote from: vk6zgo on May 11, 2011, 01:45:10 amThat's why I hate usage of this term. Makers actually make a lot of useful things forothers, not for themselves.Taking apart an old photo camerato extract the flash capacitor does not make you a "maker."Do we have anybody here who calls themselves "maker" and can explain?Quote from: sacherjj on May 10, 2011, 07:51:50 pmIt's just been claimed by ignorant media, judged, packaged and dished out for easy consumption to the public. In the days of 1200 baud modems before www was invented I called myself a hacker but I wouldn't dare now.

author: Trigger
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 12, 2011, 05:02:01 pm
content: "Makers" are probably the reason you can't hardly find an Atmega328P chip because they're all being bought up to put into ArduinosThe term has been adopted by the new wave of hardware and electronic hackers so it's a bit hard to really fault them. It's rather nice to see all of the renewed interest in hobby electronics. They can call themselves followers of the first church of the electron for all I care

author: johnboxall
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 13, 2011, 07:24:42 am
content: After some thought I agree with boredatwork, it's just a clever label thought up by O'Reilly publishing ("Make:", "Craft:" magazines etc.)I made a sandwich for lunch, am I a maker? Yes. No. By whose definition am I a maker? Who cares! My grandfathers made things. My mother makes things. My art teacher sister makes things. What people do hasn't changed over the years, only the labels for them. I wonder what we will be called in the next decade?

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 13, 2011, 08:05:34 am
content: As others have said, the term is an invention of Make Magazine.Why is it significant enough for me to mention all the time? This is why:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maker_FaireThey get 150,000+ people to this event.Like the term or not, it's one of the greatest boosts to the field of hobby electronics since, well, I'm not sure when.Before the modern day Maker/Hacker revolution which started maybe 6-7 years ago(?), hobby electronics was on a massive decline that many thought would never recover.Dave.

author: johnwa
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 13, 2011, 09:57:02 am
content: Quote from: sacherjj on May 10, 2011, 07:51:50 pmYes, it is impossible to describe oneself as such without people immediately assuming you are up to no good. It appears that the term "maker" is fairly close to the original meaning of "hacker", although unfortunately it excludes people working purely with software. While I am a little dissatisfied with the label "maker", if it fills the void in the language, that is probably a good thing.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 13, 2011, 11:11:32 am
content: Quote from: johnwa on May 13, 2011, 09:57:02 amto my understanding, maker is the one who make something from nothing. the hacker is the one who change something into something else, the functionality and purpose. but a time ago, software guys who only know a little how to intrude to other computer using some tools published in devcon will call themself a hacker. and then there's "cracker" to differentiate the real hacker to the "hacker wannabe". i hope the word "maker" will not have the same fate.

author: saturation
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 13, 2011, 11:42:09 am
content: Undoubtedly, but it seems they've squashed all these hobbies into one, and thus the large crowd. Can't hurt.Electronics is like astronomy, as a hobby. You really have to love it to be in it.Quote from: EEVblog on May 13, 2011, 08:05:34 am

author: johnwa
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 13, 2011, 01:37:37 pm
content: Quote from: Mechatrommer on May 13, 2011, 11:11:32 amYes, when I said "original meaning", I was referring to someone who simply likes to experiment with computers/programming. I know people have been campaigning to make the hacker/cracker distinction, but it looks like that battle is just about lost at this point in time.Quote from: Mechatrommer on May 13, 2011, 11:11:32 amMe too, hopefully this one will be a bit harder for the media to contort.

author: Leo Bodnar
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 13, 2011, 02:03:05 pm
content: The term is so bland and meaningless that media has no interest.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 13, 2011, 02:07:31 pm
content: Quote from: Leo Bodnar on May 13, 2011, 02:03:05 pmthe media just follow the trend, profit is their interest. who got interested, are the viewers. esp when the media exagerate/misuse the term.

author: Leo Bodnar
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 13, 2011, 02:10:50 pm
content: Quote from: Mechatrommer on May 13, 2011, 02:07:31 pmViewers are as much interested in EE as in trainspotting.

author: Polossatik
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 16, 2011, 03:52:21 pm
content: Quote from: Leo Bodnar on May 10, 2011, 05:57:57 pmThey have a bill of rightshttp://cdn.makezine.com/make/MAKERS_RIGHTS.pdf

author: jasonh
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 16, 2011, 09:30:46 pm
content: Reading that it looks like a maker is a community thing. I.e. you have to make it so that it is easy for others to make?Some of the stuff I make most people dont have the tools to get close, I guess I am not much of a maker, just a manufacturer.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 16, 2011, 10:35:40 pm
content: The word Maker is probably a similar success story to how Google managed to turn the company's name into an everyday verb.I would call Makers as 'technology with a shade of electronics for the masses', but not electronics enthusiasts or hackers.But the whole argument of what to call someone involved in technology is flawed, there are as many terms as there are individuals.Alex

author: Leo Bodnar
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 17, 2011, 09:01:47 am
content: I still don't understand why would Dave market his blog to "makers" who seem not to exist anyway. I have not seen any to step forward and declare themselves a one.I hope EEVBlog stays high-brow and dispenses really important knowledge that can only be obtained by years of practical experience in the industry.The "MAKE Magazine" is mostly trivial and disgustingly saturated with adverts and click-throughs. Most of their project remind me these:

author: johnwa
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 17, 2011, 12:07:54 pm
content: Quote from: Leo Bodnar on May 17, 2011, 09:01:47 amSome of the stuff is a bit trivial, and it does lack a bit of in-depth information at times. But they always have a lot of truly inspiring hacks as well.It's a bit hard to define their target market really. Some of the projects are obviously aimed at primary school kids, but then they advertise CNC milling machines and things as well!

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 17, 2011, 12:21:45 pm
content: [quote auth ;Dor=Alex link=topic=3377.msg45768#msg45768 date=1305585340]The word Maker is probably a similar success story to how Google managed to turn the company's name into an everyday verb.I would call Makers as 'technology with a shade of electronics for the masses', but not electronics enthusiasts or hackers.But the whole argument of what to call someone involved in technology is flawed, there are as many terms as there are individuals.AlexThere is an ideal term-------GEEKS!Yours Geekily,VK6ZGO

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 17, 2011, 07:21:56 pm
content: For me it conjours up the image of someone who is not hugely knowledgeable in any particular field and who hashes semi made stuff together and combines a basic knowhow in a number of fields

author: Excavatoree
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 17, 2011, 08:14:26 pm
content: I considered this in an earlier post, in which someone responded, it's quite simple: Makers make things.One need not engineer something in order to make it, one can follow plans, throw together just anything and hope for the best, use trial and error, etc.One can engineer something without making it - my colleague can do the engineering work for a crawler frame for an excavator without knowing how to weld the thing together. (But he must know how to specify the welds) An engineer could design a product and pay someone to make the boards, assemble and test the whole thing - have a product they never even touch.Dave has engineered things and made them - the microwatch comes to mind immediately.Before the word "hacker" was corrupted, my computer science professor told us that "hackers" wrote code without designing it properly - they just "hacked away at it" until the computer did what was desired, with no regard to maintainability, robustness, adaptability, etc.I've also thought of a "hacker" as one who doesn't quite know what he or she is doing, the "knows enough to be dangerous" type. However, many consider any modification of a product, or even discovery of how it works (source code, etc.) to be "hacking."

author: Bored@Work
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 17, 2011, 08:30:53 pm
content: Quote from: Excavatoree on May 17, 2011, 08:14:26 pmThose definitions are bullshit, and your professor has no clue.Long before professors were talking bullshit about hackers the term hack was defined asa creative circumvention of a limitation. A hacker is someone developing and deploying said creative circumvention of a limitation.Many hacks are very carefully planned, you could say designed or engineered, and very thoroughly executed. Many hacks require a lot of insight and deep knowledge how things work.Bop Pease likes to make the distinction between well-trained engineers, and well-educated guys. Trained are the ones who got their papers, but have no real insight. Educated are the ones who somehow acquired a clue. It is the same here, hackers are typically the educated ones, while the trained ones mindlessly insist on a design, even if it doesn't work or doesn't fix a problem.Don't get fooled by the wankers at hackaday. They are copycats and clueless kids, fooled by a millionaire running a fake underground website.

author: Excavatoree
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 17, 2011, 08:41:27 pm
content: I'd hardly use the word "bullshit" to describe a difference of opinion. That's rather crude and rude.To me, a creative circumvention of a limitation is a good, elegant design, but not a "hack." A 'hack" is something that "works, but it could be done better." If the design is "carefully planned and executed," in my mind, that's not a hack. I've never heard "hack" used as you describe it - but, if I'm going to go by how it's used, then I have to say the folks who use the word to mean "breaking in" or "changing" or any of the other thing thatIfeel are bullshit are not incorrect either. I can't complain about you calling my definition bullshit whilst I do the same to their definition.These froo-froo "living language" people who change definitions on a whim and feel that we have no standards are partially to blame here. It's as if enough people said that 2+2=5 that we could change the rules of math to allow it.EG - "podium" is a raised platform on which a speaker stands, but thw word was corrupted to mean "a structure that a speaker stands behind which may or may not hold notes, a microphone, etc. "Verbal" literally means "with words" and describes written or oral communication, but many now feel that "verbal" only means the spoken words. I could list several examples, but you see my point.We do agree about the terms "educated" and "Trained" it seems.Trained means to know the steps to do something, while "educated" implies an understanding of the concepts involved.EG I can train you to start an engine by saying "if it's cold, activate the choke" but the educated person knows that a cold engine needs more fuel, and that the choke plate will enrichen the mixture and allow a cold engine to start. (yes, I'm old and still remember carburetors. )

author: Leo Bodnar
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 17, 2011, 08:56:42 pm
content: Quote from: Excavatoree on May 17, 2011, 08:14:26 pmPassing  personal opinion as a historical fact is unprofessional and misleading.

author: Excavatoree
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 17, 2011, 09:00:23 pm
content: Quote from: Leo Bodnar on May 17, 2011, 08:56:42 pmI didn't do that.My own opinion is that the definition above isn't unorthodox - just because you and some others disagree. I've heard that definition several other places as well.

author: Leo Bodnar
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 17, 2011, 09:52:15 pm
content: Quote from: Excavatoree on May 17, 2011, 09:00:23 pmSorry, I meant your professor, not yourself. My apologies!

author: Excavatoree
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 17, 2011, 10:46:07 pm
content: Sorry I misunderstood.I guess it was unprofessional of him, seeing as how he's a Computer Science professor and not in etymology. (I was a rouge EE in the CS department class)I know I'm not much of a maker.Interesting discussion, however. I've learned a lot.

author: torch
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 18, 2011, 03:07:11 am
content: Quote from: Simon on May 17, 2011, 07:21:56 pmHey, that's me!I built the house I'm sitting in (well, not the block work, I'm a terrible bricklayer). I have a woodshop in the basement were I build/repair anything from cabinetry to old mahogany boats. My metal shop out back is equipped with a few welders, torches, mill, lathe, etc. I have a fairly large collection of antique outboards and classic motorcycles that I restore and rebuild (hence the mill and lathe -- have you tried to find a replacement pinion gear for a 1959 Scott-Atwater lately?)And now I'm trying to expand my electronics knowledge beyond the "that black hole must be were the smoke got out" stage.I'm not sure I fully agree with the "hashes semi made stuff together" though. Yes, sometimes I build things from kits -- my first computer was a box of chips, a circuit board and a photostat of suggestions on how to adapt a teletype keyboard for input. (I bought it off some guy named Steve Jobs for $500 back around 1976.) But more often I buy bar stock or plate or dressed lumber. I don't think that's semi-made any more than buying a bunch of transistors. At the extreme end, I have milled my own lumber from trees growing on my own property, stickered it, dried it and created anything from staircases to wood pens with the resulting stock.So, while I may not be "hugely knowledgeable" in any one field, I plan to continue to build on my meager storehouse until it is time to meet MY maker.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 18, 2011, 03:44:38 am
content: specialist cannot build a complete or broader system, they are limited to specific (narrow) range, why? because they are specialist! on the other hand, generalist... they are not specialist, and they know less of every bit of knowledge. for eg: in order to build a nice electronic product, there will be (usually) electronics, mechanical and art/ergonomics involved not to mention making pcb, assembling etc. several number of specialist are needed to build that, and only one hobbiest/generalist is needed to build the same complete (but no so good) product. from my 2cnts observation.so, a maker... is it consist of many people? or one person only by definition? or if we talking about manufacturer brand name eg: tektronix, agilent, canon or nikon (camera) who are the maker? the engineers? or the bosses? or the company itself (non human) which according to "accounting discipline" is an alive entity? if the word "maker" is illusive, why it exists since before our grand grand father was born?

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 18, 2011, 04:14:25 am
content: about the word hacker... shouldnt we trust the wiki?http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hackingthough i see there is semantic clash here between what it was to be a hacker in the past, and what is the hacker in the reality of present time. the same the the word "pirate" (was argued in this forum sometime ago) where someone said the pirate is someone with one eye, wood leg, a parrot and skull flag on a ship, but someone else talking the "pirate" is someone who make a copy and sell of copyright soft material from his house. and in my very humble opinion. a hacker does not need to be "creatively" circumvent of a limitation, thats partly a job for a well trained and educated person. what matters is the passion and spirit to circumvent a limitation no matter how elegant or stupid it is, as long as it is circumvented. my basis for the word "hacking" is always be from the oxford dictionary "to cut/slash/chop" and whats that will be? use your imagination! i dont hold a strong absolution to a particular point/meaning.ps: the enemy is always the "clueless" fanboys, and i probably could become one of them

author: Bored@Work
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 18, 2011, 05:29:54 am
content: Quote from: Excavatoree on May 17, 2011, 08:41:27 pmNo, it properly describes the situation.QuoteIt doesn't matter what it is to you. I gave you the proper definition of a hack. You can research it, or you can sit there and continue with the fingers in your ear and singing lalala. I always find people funny who have the opportunity to learn, but refuse to do so, because they don't feel like it and it isn't in their mind.

author: Excavatoree
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 18, 2011, 11:40:48 am
content: Quote from: BoredAtWork on May 18, 2011, 05:29:54 am1. I never said it didn't properly describe the situation, I said it was rude and crude. You can see a fat person walking down the street and say "you are a lard ass" and you will be properly describing the situation, but you will be thought a crude, rude person. (The situation as you see it - as you define the word "hacker," my prof's definition is BS.)2. I didn't realize you were the authority on that word. I did do some research, and no where do I see your definition. I'll continue to look and learn. I don't have my fingers in my ears, but when someone presents information that contradicts what I have learned from other sources, I have to do more research, but I'm not going to change my mind instantly based on one internet post.It doesn't matter what that word means to you, either. You and I both posted definitions on this forum that disagree. One or both of us may be wrong.From what I see, most people (outside of this forum, I must add) use "hacker" to mean a computer criminal. I think we at least agree that they are wrong.

author: Leo Bodnar
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 18, 2011, 01:26:58 pm
content: Quote from: Mechatrommer on May 18, 2011, 04:14:25 amWikipedia is the last place to find trusted information in. Written by maniacs and zealots and based on opinion and crap found... you've guessed it - online.Words meaning are to be looked up in trusted sources like Webster or Oxford dictionaries. Try Webster:QuoteNotice that 3: precedes 4:Quote

author: Excavatoree
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 18, 2011, 01:45:26 pm
content: Note also that 2 precedes 3, and 2 is not specific to computers, as 3 is.Also note that I never said I was absolutely correct, and I never said anyone else was wrong.I said I wasn't going to change my mind immediately upon reading one post, not that I never would change it nor that I wouldn't consider other research.

author: Excavatoree
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 18, 2011, 03:27:27 pm
content: A meaning I have found in other research for "hack" is to modify something to add capability or improve functioning of a device beyond what the manufacturer intended. So, a hacker would simply be a modifier.One thing that is clear is there are as many different definitions of "hack" or "hacker" as the number of people one asks - although some differ only in subtle shades of meaning.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 19, 2011, 12:37:55 am
content: 2 person can draw 2 very different meaning. the classic solution will be 1 right and 1 wrong. but from what i learnt, both can be wrong or right or neither. we are all based on the "law of relativity".