A new toy for Ultrapurple - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Ultrapurple
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2019, 08:41:42 am
content: Whilst I'm nowhere near as good at negotiating as Fraser, I managed to get myself a nice toy recently.Any guesses what it is?

author: frenky
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 29, 2019, 08:52:39 am
content: Based on the image on LCD it looks really (a bit older) high resolution high end model.

author: Ultrapurple
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2019, 08:56:10 am
content: Yep

author: helius
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2019, 09:04:30 am
content: Flir SC620/640/660

author: Ultrapurple
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2019, 09:29:57 am
content: Well spotted! It's an SC660, formerly top-of-the-range.I shall doubtless have fun playing with it.One day I hope to do a side-by-side with my various other cameras, but that will take a while to set up. A comparison against the Therm-App Pro (also 640x480) would be an interesting place to start, though.

author: Ultrapurple
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2019, 09:39:53 am
content: My first three images. Opened in Paint Shop Pro then re-saved, so there's no IR data.

author: frenky
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 29, 2019, 11:10:49 am
content: Mmmmm... 640x480.

author: Ultrapurple
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2019, 11:54:46 am
content: More like this, surely?

author: Ultrapurple
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2019, 12:00:55 pm
content: A couple more samples whilst I'm on lunch. The ones in the body of this message were made (long ago) with a Therm-App; the attachments were done with the Flir.I expect to get much better results out of the SC660 as I learn to drive it. In particular, how to remove the FLIR logo from the bottom left corner...

author: cvanc
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2019, 12:05:20 pm
content: Congratulations, but if you name really is 'ultrapurple' you're at the wrong end of the spectrum

author: Ultrapurple
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2019, 12:22:53 pm
content: Quote from: cvanc on March 29, 2019, 12:05:20 pmDarn - I hadn't noticed...FWIW I have imaging equipment from LWIR to X-Ray, including ultraviolet, so the name doesn't fit with anything much. But it's distinctive, and I use it on my Flickr account and other places for a sense of continuity.

author: Vipitis
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2019, 01:10:01 pm
content: Well, that is nice to have.It certainly fits the formfactor and features I would want for a filmmaking camera.I saw an 2004 P series in this format, but they asked for a high price, that is far outside my reach.What about it's video capabilities? Accessing data as raw as possible is key for my needs, but the flir radiometric images usually have all the data needed.

author: Ultrapurple
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2019, 01:41:29 pm
content: @VipitisAll I presently know about the video capabilities is that it will record video and that it does so at 640x480. I've hardly begun to explore the still imaging capabilities yet, let alone video, but I am confident that it will do interesting things. Something in the back of my mind says it will record fully radiometric video when linked to a computer via FireWire, but I can't remember where I saw that.Unfortunately, I don't have a FireWire interface on any of my computers, nor any spare slots on the motherboard of my workhorse PC. It has just two slots - one for a meaty graphics board and the other occupied by a USB 3 interface card. USB 3 is probablyfastenough to host a connection, but I have never seen a FireWire to USB adapter, leastways not in the direction I need. Has anyone else seen one? (I believe there are some fundamental incompatibilities between USB and IEE1394, for example USB lacks DMA. On another forum, someone picturesquely described adapting FireWire to USB as "like trying to present an opera (sound and vision) using Morse code").There doesn't seem to be much info on the SC660 on the internet, leastways not that I've found. However, I do have the documentation disk for the wee beastie and will peruse that when I get a chance.I have done some overnight thermal video recording, leaving a couple of 320x240 thermal cameras in a field to look for wildlife. If I recall correctly I saw one mouse and a rabbit. I can't imagine I'll be leaving this camera out unattended overnight! At least the others were rain-resistant (ex-Fire Service)!

author: Spirit532
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2019, 08:50:10 pm
content: Quote from: Ultrapurple on March 29, 2019, 01:41:29 pmThey can't exist, sadly. USB is host-driven and based on packets, high speed FireWire is a stream/DMA and device-driven.Unless someone figures out some insane FPGA glue logic, you can't adapt between the two.

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2019, 09:43:28 pm
content: The USB 2.0 to IEEE1394 (FireWire/iLink/DV) bridge does exist. It is a little known feature of a specific series of the older Pinnacle USB capture units. Only the dome shaped Moviebox DV models had the USB to FireWire bridge. It apparently worked with many FireWire camcorders but I have never tested it with a thermal camera. These are sought after units but do appear on eBay.com quite often. Normally around £70 plus postage. I decided that for that money I could easily buy a decent used laptop that is equipped with a FireWire port and that is what I did. I also have FireWire Expesscard adapters for my laptops that lack a built in IEEE1394 port. PCMCIA based IEEE1394 adapters can be a little challenged on the speed of the host interface. expresscard uses the PCI bus bridge and is faster.http://youtu.be/BthebohwsDk

author: Ben321
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2019, 04:38:49 am
content: It looks like one of FLIR's P models. The P models have a camcorder shaped body.

author: Spirit532
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2019, 07:30:48 pm
content: Quote from: Fraser on March 29, 2019, 09:43:28 pmIt only works for those specific cameras due to a proprietary(non-firewire specifically) interface. It willnotwork on anything that doesn't have that proprietary DV interface.You cannot convert IEEE1394 to USB 2.0.

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2019, 07:52:00 pm
content: Spirit532,So are you saying that DV is not IEEE1394a or that the cameras use a proprietary command set over the standard IEEE1394a bearer.I ask because my understanding, and experience, is that IEEE1394a = FireWire = Sony iLink = Generic Camcorder “DV”.As I say, I have never tested such an adapter and I am aware that IEEE1394a has a continuous streaming capability and USB2.0 is limited to packet bursts. This is why I was surprised to read that people were converting DV (IEEE1394a) to USB2 for video editing using the Pinnacle unit. It must have one huge data buffer in that adapter. I have no idea how Pinnacle managed this feat as I too thought it not possible. I do know that the Pinnacle Movie Studio USB units that followed the dome shaped version did not have the DV to USB conversion capability. As such the dome shaped units command high prices.I still think buying a cheap FireWire equipped laptop is a better option in many cases thoughFraser

author: Max Planck
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2019, 07:54:42 pm
content: Quote from: Spirit532 on March 29, 2019, 08:50:10 pmYou could try a FireWire express card + an express card to USB converter.Some time ago Pinnacle was selling their Studio MovieBox module, but it is no longer available.Max

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2019, 08:13:48 pm
content: Max,From my understanding, the Expresscard port on a laptop offers both PCI bus and USB ports. The Express cards can utilise either port but much depends upon the data transfer rate required. Fast data capability usually mandates use of the direct PCI port. The USB to Expresscard cables that you see advertised only populate the USB pins on the expresscard connector. They only work with relatively slow Expresscard types as a result. IEEE1394a/d Expresscards are fast interfaces so use the PCI port within the Expresscard connector.Fraser

author: Max Planck
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2019, 08:45:15 pm
content: Fraser,based on the camera datasheet, it has a 640x480 pixels resolution FPA and 30 fps at full frame. Assuming a 16 bit coding it gives roughly a 20 MB/s data stream. This is not a problem.Max

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2019, 09:05:56 pm
content: Yes but the USB to Expresscard adapter does not provide the PCI port that the IEEE1394a cards all use. The Expresscard would not have any of its pins connected in such an adapter. I know because this was a situation I came across with a seller claiming that a USB to Expresscard was ‘fully wired’. It was, but only 4 wires.... +/D+/D- and - ....... a single USB portFraser

author: Max Planck
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2019, 11:04:25 pm
content: We are talking here about express card to USB, not the other way. I used on a few occasions a camera link card and the said adapter, all this with a camera faster than the SC660. It worked as needed. Not a surprise, as a single USB 2.0 port theoretical speed is 60 MB/s. Thus, I can believe in compatibility problems with different cards and adapters, but not data speed, not with the camera we are talking about.Max

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2019, 11:13:33 pm
content: Sorry Max, this is getting lost in translation. Best I stop now before more confusion is causedFraser

author: Ultrapurple
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2019, 11:32:51 pm
content: I think the lesson for me here is that i need to learn a lot more about the camera, read the.manuals, try the on board USB interfaces and see if they achieve at least a minimum of what I want. At present I can't see myself needing fully radiometric video in the immediate future and as I understand matters it will happily record some kind of MPEG either onboard or via USB.I have no doubt that the manual will reveal much.

author: Vipitis
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2019, 04:57:21 am
content: When you don't want to look into the hardware kind of things - try software.The radiometric images should come in a format that works with FLIR Tools as well as the Palette Generator by MyThermalWorld. I think that is the easiest way for you to access the image from a raw angle and play with your curves. The application allows for different palette application models using histogram equalization, stretch or linear.

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2019, 11:04:14 am
content: Ultrapurple,If your SC660 is like my A40 and S40 you will find a service menu at the cameras IP address when connected to it with a PC. That service menu will provide access to calibration etc. It may also carry the details of the lens that is fitted. I can find all the detail on the lens except the f number.Fraser

author: Chanc3
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2019, 08:52:36 am
content: 40mm lens for the P/SC6xx series is the 24° lens. We've got 4 of these cameras with both 45° and 24° lens. They really are great cameras, but a couple points to note:The tripod mount can break overtime if too much stress is applied.The fold out screen hinge is crap and will quite easily become loose.The SC660 has pretty much most things maxed out in the firmware, but you can turn on features like panorama and a mysterious "building menu", which I still don't know what it does. There was a rare B6xx range that perhaps utilised this menu.They do have the full service menu in them, so additional ranges can be turned on and new lens cases enabled.I have an exploded diagram of this camera, so if you ever need to get inside, it can help with that.

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 02, 2019, 09:25:39 am
content: Chanc3,Can you advise what the password is for the service menu in these cameras. My A40 uses the same as on the E4.Fraser

author: oddbondboris
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2019, 12:28:46 am
content: Quote from: Ultrapurple on March 29, 2019, 01:41:29 pmthere does exist a card with both usb3 and firewire on a single card, the sonnet tango 3.0 but it's discontinued and fetches about $90 on ebay

author: Ultrapurple
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 15, 2019, 09:55:03 am
content: I finally managed to figure out how to remove the lens assembly. The dust I saw by looking through the lens barrel with another thermal cameraturns out to be on the sensor window (at least I assume that's what I'm seeing inside the camera):The photograph doesn't do justice to how manky the window actually is. I've tried the usual air duster to no avail. Interestingly, the lens element that faces the window was absolutely clear of contaminants.So, the question is, can I safely clean this window? And if so, what with? Rubbing alcohol and a Q-tip?

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 15, 2019, 10:25:32 am
content: Hi Ultrapurpke,Treat the Microbolometer as you would an SLR CCD, with great carehttps://petapixel.com/2016/08/23/step-step-guide-cleaning-camera-sensor/With regard to cleaning swabs and solutions, the key factors are materials compatibility, residue and no lint.Thermal camera manufactures recommend Acetone and Unadulterated IPA. Acetone leaves no residue but it can dissolve the glue in a Q tip and that them leaches onto the cotton and contaminates the sensorIPA is relatively kind as an optical cleaning agent. It can leave a very slight haze on the sensor that is easily removed by very gently dry wiping the sensors window. I personally use a optics cleaning cloth that is not dyed (plain white) Over the end of a Q Tip and dampen the cloth with IPA. I gently stroke the cloth over the sensor window and let it dry. I then use a dry are of the cloth on a dry Q Tip and gently wipe the whole sensor window to remove ant residue.I do not use “rubbing alcohol” as that is IPA adulterated with water.The microbolometer window is actually pretty tough but you do not want ant scratches on it if you can avoid them. Interestingly FLIR have provided comment on fine dust scratches on new cameras microbolometer windows. They say this is normal and nothing to be concerned about as the fine scratches are not within the focus of the sensor array and are invisible in use.https://flir.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/1146/~/scratches-on-detector-window-on-new-cameras/session/L2F2LzEvdGltZS8xNTU1MzI0MTM1L3NpZC9mVWFMRkhNbHV2X1o0dmZkcV85QnEzUVd2NkhFR2RqUERvYlcwbnFmSDklN0VqNXE3cVhLUWp4VSU3RVB4eXlaaTdDdXVEZnhyQ3V4bV9Pd0NjWlVUeGNZNngzcjcwaGMzSlVwX2FLcFZrb3h6YWxCMWdaRU5mVDVacVN3JTIxJTIxHope this helpsFraser

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 15, 2019, 10:36:21 am
content: FLIR provide very limited advice on actual lens cleaning. I seem to recall better guidance was in some user manuals. You can treat the microbolometer window in the same way as the Germanium lenses when it comes to cleaning. They key is to use lint free soft materials, a gentle cleaning fluid, such a IPA and a gentle touch.... no rubbing hard. If a spot is stubborn, more gently wiping with IPA is recommended rather than pressing harder.https://flir.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/193/related/1Fraser

author: Ultrapurple
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 15, 2019, 11:04:13 am
content: Thanks for this. I have a small quantity of pretty pure acetone and I'm sure I can ask my friendly local pharmacist for some high-purity IPA. They've known me long enough to believe I'm unlikely to use it to make a super-weapon for the purpose of world domination.(cue evil cackle - what little the fools realise!! Ha ha ha ha ha...)