Yet another "importance of a degree" - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: daveshah
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 01, 2016, 12:47:25 pm
content: I'm currently a second year student on a comined EE+computing course at a well respected university in the UK.Unfortunately I'm finding university very miserable; I don't fit in with the others and often find I'm being slightly bullied even. The university haven't really been able to do anything.I am doing very well academically, coming top in our course of ~40 students last year, but don't find the course that interesting either, the pace is a lot slower than I was expecting.From my own projects, which is the only way I am able to motivate myself, I have a good knowledge of VHDL and working with Altera/Xilinx FPGAs as well as some PCB design experience. I've also got plenty of programming experience (C++, C# and Python mostly).Is this enough to secure a vaguely interesting job if I drop out now or should I try and stick university out for another year and a half?

author: snarkysparky
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 01, 2016, 01:10:06 pm
content: try to stick with it. Many companies want the certification of a degree.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 01, 2016, 01:12:17 pm
content: Quote from: daveshah on December 01, 2016, 12:47:25 pmStick it out.Find your motivation in doing your own side projects you are interested in.

author: sainter
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 01, 2016, 01:27:48 pm
content: Just keep swimming... courses will get more interesting and challenging, bullies will drop out when things get tough or even will try to befriend you for help. One way or the other, finish your degree.

author: DenzilPenberthy
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 01, 2016, 01:49:07 pm
content: Stick with it if you can. I had very few friends on my course for most of university as a result of slipping a year due to failing 1st year Engineering Maths module. I had completely lost interest in the course as well. It was extremely dry and mathematical, nothing at all practical. I had a very hard time with the course academically and I only really stuck with it because I can be quite stubborn and I didn't want to admit defeat. It took a long time after the course to regain any enthusiasm for electronics. (Dave had a huge part to play in reigniting my practical interest in the subject). I made friends outside of my course through clubs/societies etc. I found a lot more like-minded people there.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 01, 2016, 01:57:43 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on December 01, 2016, 01:12:17 pmPrecisely.Don't forget that bullies are principally interested in getting a subservient reaction. If you don't react, they will eventually lose interest.I'm not surprised the university aren't able to do anything about "slight bullying", since that is difficult for a third party to unambiguously distinguish from "mere" personality conflicts and differences of opinion - and it often ends up as one person's word against another. They could only reasonably step in when someone is visibly being damaged.Having said that, I expect your uni has a counselling service; strongly consider making use of it.My daughter had a friend that was seriously thinking of dropping out of physics. They had several long conversations, he didn't drop out - and ended up with a good degree.In the meantime, concentrate on getting reasonable grades, on the bits you enjoy, and ignore any bullying. At the very least your experiences will form a good conversation point with HR-droids when they ask you the inevitable "tell me about a difficult situation, and how you dealt with it". Phrased properly, your answers could do you credit.Don't forget it can be a tough world out there, andalljobs have bits you don't particuarly enjoy. The trick is to find jobs where that is minimised

author: John Coloccia
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 01, 2016, 01:58:55 pm
content: Employers want people that can finish a project, even when it gets boring. I would also say that now is an excellent time to learn how to "fit in." Sometimes, it doesn't just happen. In your career, you will often find yourself in uncomfortable positions, either with other employees, or maybe a customer. To some people, reading people and fitting in comes naturally. To others, it's a learned skill, but you'd best learn it and now is the time to do it when you've really got nothing to lose and everything to gain.Pick up this book:https://www.amazon.com/John-Molloys-New-Dress-Success/dp/0446385522Yes, I'm 100% serious. Don't worry about all the fashion advice. The book is a tour de force of how your image, including the way you stand, facial gestures and things like that, affect how people view and treat you, AND how you can manipulate that to your advantage. It's just like any other kind of engineering or problem solving.

author: CJay
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 01, 2016, 03:00:03 pm
content: Stick with it, a degree is your entry pass these days and it's an awful lot easier to build a career if your foundations are solid.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 01, 2016, 03:14:37 pm
content: I'd say stick with it. There are ways to succeed without the degree, but they are rare and often difficult. Many who drop out find themselves trying to return to finish. As hard as it may be for you to believe now, almost all find it even harder to come back and finish.The pluses for finishing later - your motivation may be better and with added maturity and knowledge the courses will seem far easier.The minuses - You will have far more commitments on your time, you will find the boring parts even more boring, and you will be stunned by the immaturity of those around you.

author: MosherIV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 01, 2016, 03:28:41 pm
content: For my pennies worth - Stick with itQuoteDuring the credit crunch/recession nearly all jobs in embedded software/electronics required a good Degree regardless of the experience or number of years workedGood luck with it. Try to have a good time at Uni - looking back it was one of the best times of my life

author: RoGeorge
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 01, 2016, 03:39:21 pm
content: Quote from: daveshah on December 01, 2016, 12:47:25 pmAbsolutely not enough. Don't you even think to give up!Stick with the university and get your degree.

author: daveshah
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 01, 2016, 03:46:41 pm
content: Thanks everyone for the advice; I'm definitely going to stick it out as it sounds like I've previously been undervaluing the importance of a degree.

author: Howardlong
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 01, 2016, 04:10:58 pm
content: Much as I despise the situation, it's pretty much a mandatory requirement these days to have a degree to get started is almost any career.I was in a similar position to you in that before I went to university I was already designing plenty of hardware and programming in assembly language as well as higher level languages, which in those days was ALGOL and BASIC (don't laugh!).I learned almost nothing practically speaking at university. The exception was to gain a grounding of how to properly write software for high level languages (rather than hack it). Two of the three computer language courses were frankly useless (FORTRAN and COBOL). The useful one was Pascal. Electronics-wise, I learned nothing practical I didn't know already. I did learn how to solve calculus problems in more ways than you could shake a stick at... but in 35+ years I've only very, very, very rarely used that skill.What I did gain were three letters after my name, and that opened doors that would definitely never have been opened otherwise.The odd electronics jobs I did prior to my degree were pure grunt work, like tidying up the stores. It was, however, perfectly plausible in those days to work your way up, usually in a rather unstructured way. Nowadays, it's much harder to do that: you can thank the modern-day HR box-tickers for that, plus that everyone and their dog has a degree.I agree with the other posters, I implore you to continue.Before I am done though, how does this bullying manifest itself? Frankly, once you're at university age that sort of childish nonsense should've evaporated. If it pervades it's merely a reflection on the lack of maturity of the perpetrators.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 01, 2016, 04:51:39 pm
content: Stick with it, and if the bullying or feeling misfit get to a point that it affects your mental or physical health then seek professional help.The time to decide that you don't want to use a degree in your career is only after you earned it.

author: smithnerd
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 01, 2016, 04:53:18 pm
content: Quote from: Howardlong on December 01, 2016, 04:10:58 pmI was surprised at how juvenile a lot of my peers were at university in the mid-nineties. In their case it wasn't so much bullying, as constant low-level disruption during lectures, arsing about during labs and blatant cheating during exams. None of the trouble makers graduated, they wasted 1 or 2 years of fees and loans, and left with nothing but a better understanding of their own shortcomings.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 01, 2016, 07:47:18 pm
content: Definitely worth completing the degree. I'm really surprised to hear of bullying at the university level. I'm a bit of loner and never fit in with any peers, etc. I dropped out of HS at mid 2nd year but later attended university and completed a degree. I actually liked university because it didn't have all the BS that typically goes on in HS. If you come to the point where things become unbearable and the university won't address the problem, then maybe choose a different one. Definitely seek out a counselor to discuss the problem.-Steve

author: hans
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 01, 2016, 09:10:19 pm
content: Definitely hang in there for the degree.I've been bullied to more or lesser degrees in elementary and secondary school. When I was about 15 years old I was supposed to head for community college in 2 years time, but fortunately in that year I got into a much nicer class & environment and very quickly my grades went up. Instead of community college I could do (and did) the extra year(s) in secondary school to go to university straight away.I've had a time of bullying once more when I was about 17, but I was able to put it aside much better and stay focused on my self. People who are 'so vocal' are usually the ones with the least amount of work ethics out there. In my experience the silent people are either really shy, or are the serious people working hard for their own future. Despite that they can still have the motto 'work hard play hard'. The (vocal) bullies may grow up (some don't) when they get older, but perhaps it's too late once they realize they won't pass enough classes to stay in university. Sometimes malicious pleasure is out place, but I don't care.However when I put all of this together it still makes me angry that such circumstances have put me in this situation. A normal education path to university would have been much more straight forward, quicker and also develop a much broader skill set when I was younger. It would have saved me a lot of time and agony. But it is what it is. Since that 'turning point' I've been able to source motivation and satisfaction from my grades and hobby projects. Some friends once said I am always busy with stuff at varying levels of intensity, yet that is how I feel right in 'my zone'. I felt out of it for a whole due to some circumstances and I hated that. It's actually one of the reasons why I went back for a degree, however that may sound quite contrary to you. I am now resuming university for a masters.I would be totally gutted if someone else would be responsible for my decision to quit college. In other words, don't let the actions of others influence you. As said before; no education papers is a big deal for probably many many years to come. Try to source motivation from own hobby projects and what doors the degree will eventually open for you.Just my 2 cents.

author: VK3DRB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 01, 2016, 11:08:09 pm
content: Generally, you will find the course will get more interesting as it progresses. And I join the chorus - STICK WITH IT. For the sake of a few years, you will never look back. In all my career, I only met one engineer who regretted getting his engineering degree, and he is a conspiracy theorist who abandoned engineering as the Illuminati closes in to destroy the world. Everyone else I know never regretted it, despite how tough or dry the course was. Strive on.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2016, 12:47:54 am
content: Definitely, complete the degree program.As to finding something vaguely interesting to do, well, that might be tough. For the most part, I enjoyed my career. I wouldn't call it interesting more than about 10% of the time. The rest of the time was just routine. Budgets, meetings, report writing and other boring stuff. Lunch was usually the highlight of the day! The whole thing paid well, so no complaints. I am happily retired and not planning to ever work again.

author: Wilksey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2016, 11:21:21 am
content: With the risk of, stick with it.I never went as far to get a degree, I got bored after completing my HND.A fair few years ago (double figures) when I was looking for a job, a degree wasn't mandatory, but was a benefit, but I started at the bottom (tea boy), even though I could run rings around the existing "engineers" it didn't matter, had i a degree I could have started further up the ladder (senior tea boy).These days, for the roles I take, experience is key, going for a graduate / out of uni job almost certainly requires a degree, if you can get a PHD, well, you're laughing!True story, we had a position for a software engineer, some mush comes in for the job, knew very little about C/C++, tried to write embedded code like he would MFC, but he was hired, why, because he had a PHD, the strangest thing (to me) is that his PHD wasn't in software or anything computer related, but in philosophy! Still finding his code to this day.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2016, 12:11:50 pm
content: Quote from: Wilksey on December 02, 2016, 11:21:21 amThe PH in PHD stands for philosophy. It doesn't necessarily mean that the person actually studied what we would consider as philosophy.

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2016, 01:25:20 pm
content: Quote from: daveshah on December 01, 2016, 12:47:25 pmThis to me is strange. In my age you could chose to interact so little with people next to no one even knew your name. I guess today with more mandatory attendance, group work and nearly everyone running nominal that's less true.Also there were very few people who could not find some group to fit into outside of class. Our student network and cable were run by student volunteers with some bizarre characters, the roleplaying group was predictably an eclectic group, the amateur radio crowd was always special etc etc. The multi-year membership of these groups form a better environment for social interaction than the school'ish class one IMO.

author: TheWelly888
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2016, 01:48:50 pm
content: Quote from: Wilksey on December 02, 2016, 11:21:21 amMy boss once interviewed a candidate with two engineering degrees who took 20minutes to wire a UK mains plug and connected the earth wire to the live pin as well as long stretches of bare conductors in the plug!That candidate was not hired!Back to OP - stick with the degree course, the side projects will stand you in good stead!

author: Howardlong
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2016, 02:07:55 pm
content: Quote from: Wilksey on December 02, 2016, 11:21:21 amThe best project manager I've ever had the pleasure to work with is at ESA's R&D facility in the Netherlands, and he has an MSc in Physics and Philosophy. He's nearly 20 years younger than me. Being sceptical, I asked him once about the philosophy stuff and what practical use it was, he explained it was about critical thinking and being able to logically prioritise stuff. Having worked with him I believe it.Why does he make a great PM? Several reasons, but two key ones:o A good PM has trust and respect in the experience and expertise of the various SMEs who are working with him: he makes sure he understands as much as he needs to from a technical level, but also knows when to stop micro-analysing.o An SME has a problem and offers the PM a few solutions, with pros and cons. A good PM will pick one, the least worst option,with the information available at the time. Sure, occasionally we'd need to do a bit more investigation, but all too often PMs will sit on problems and procrastinate, and that lack of decision making is frequently far worse than no decision at all.I like to think those facets might be to do with his philosophy training, and he was making those calls in his mid 20s.

author: Wilksey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2016, 02:33:15 pm
content: Quote from: zapta on December 02, 2016, 12:11:50 pmI am aware of that, but in this case, it was not computer related, he was writing research papers on philosophers.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2016, 03:56:20 pm
content: Quote from: Wilksey on December 02, 2016, 02:33:15 pmIn this case he was a real PhD, not like that fake ones that just study engineering.;-)

author: daveshah
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 02, 2016, 05:02:15 pm
content: Once again, thanks all for the advice and reassurance, it's much appreciated.Quote from: smithnerd on December 01, 2016, 04:53:18 pmYes, the immaturity surprised me too. It also made living in halls last year a nightmare as people would do things like bounce rugby balls loudly down the corridor at 2am when you had something important the next day.The bullying itself is stuff like having multiple people teasing me about the way I speak - which is not even something people have noticed before.

author: Wilksey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2016, 05:39:14 pm
content: They only bully you because they know you are better than them.I have a friend who got bullied because of how he speaks, he has a lisp, we're talking a few years ago now that he was bullied, not too long ago one of those bullies, who I am sure didn't remember, applied for a job, on the interview panel sat my friend, needless to say he didn't get the job, when he told me about it we had a good chuckle, and there is something satisfying when that kind of thing happens, or is it just me?!

author: CraigHB
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2016, 06:39:15 pm
content: I'm surprised to hear that kind of thing goes on in University. I never had any trouble like that in getting my degree, but I had no issues socially either. The rubber really hits the road in third year engineering. In those classes nobody has time to pay attention to anything other than class studies. Anyone who isn't serious about getting their degree will be weeded out at that point. If possible you should get away from university housing, what we call dorms here in the states. That's just not a good environment for serious study. I never once lived in the dorms and that was intentional.

author: LaserSteve
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2016, 07:28:43 pm
content: You do have options on most campuses that you may not be aware of.I started in EE, Finished in Secondary Education, because honestly I could not teach myself Calc I fast enough. Thru a strange twist, I'm now a Departmental Technician, at the same University, in the College of Engineering no less. In the US, we graduate way too many Education majors, so I fell back on my hobby. I ended up back where they kicked me out, because in many cases, the Applied side IS as important as the Theoretical side. But that is increasingly rare as the days of the lone inventor are numbered. These days research, and product engineering, are usually based on highly qualified interdisciplinary teams who do most of their work using simulation and CAD.Begin politically incorrect rant from a "Non Traditional Engineer"I will tell you this, getting past the Human Resources Ladies is a real, real, real difficult problem if you drop out and try to fall back on your hobby. They look at Tickboxes and lists of requirements, and all the practical experience is important to your manager and peers, but NOT to HR. In my post college life, because I am not a EE, I have only been hired thru a job app ONCE in 20 years. My EE peers will argue the opposite, that they get hired by applying in most cases. Some of my employers have told me, that although they made an exception in my case, NOT having an all Engineer staff hurts them with clients who look at such statistics.Everything else has required finding some one who needed my services, talking my way in, meeting some on at the local parts place, or when I've been referred to a job by an insider. Most of my work is on revolving one year contracts, and that is a B&^%. I can tell you about running out of un-employment benefits in two recessions. Then surviving by buying Chinese circuit boards for a particular application, and upgrading them to US standards, then reselling them. The other time survival was based on "hand to mouth" cash repairs, moving in with Mom, and eating Taco Bell.Why struggle in the future? Most dropouts never return to college, in my experience.Advantages for College...1. You will never again be surrounded by so many beautiful young women... Find a girlfriend who is more interesting then your classes, and time will fly by.2. I can tell you from my own time feeling the same way. Engineers are competitive, and I assure you after taking three liberal arts teaching fields, Engineering profs are the hardest to get good grades from, and are cruel when it comes to curving grades. They also seem to be quite willing to flunk struggling students right out of the career, where other colleges would work to retain them. If your good at what your doing, your peers want you gone in some cases just to lower the grading curve threshold. Realize that much of what you are memorizing, you will never use again. It is simply a "Rite of Passage" in many cases.3. Women and Finances... From my Nerd past, although now I would never have something to do with women so shallow..."Hi, What's your major?... "Oh, Secondary Education".. Watch pretty girl smile and walk away. What's your major?, "Engineering". Oh, Hi, want to do something tonight?"4. Difference in salary between myself, and my EE peers is often 20-30K USD for doing the same work. I've been hourly, when all of them are salaried.5. You will possibly never again have such a rich environment of libraries, people, and equipment to learn from. Read "Review of Scientific Instruments" for free in college, instead of say 1200$ a year for a subscription in a corporate environment.6. Pop over to UAS or other such military programs, and do a year with people who are team oriented. One free year of tuition for trying out the military with no obligation, in some cases... That does not just happen in the UK. US has some wonderful programs, so does Russia and most of the rest of the world. Get to go camping, flying, shooting, get physically fit, and make friends.7. There are no fun campus events for people who are not part of campus. Go to ballroom dancing class or join the canoe club, or SAE racing team.. That makes life a lot easier..Other majors are not so harsh on their peers, well, except for say Nursing..8. You can always change majors, at least get a degree.9. Your junior year is coming up, ask for an internship semester at a local employer.10. Tutor others, you'll learn some very useful skills doing that.. Volunteer at a soup kitchen, do something to relax.Go find a research professor who has funding to hire an undergraduate, and can use your lab skills and analytical thinking. In the US, many professors score extra points on their next request for funding, by having undergrads in the lab. It may be scut work, but lab time is lab time, and will be challenging and fun. I've seen professors intervene with peers for particularly skilled lab students. I admit, I have intervened for bored students, and helped them find something in a lab to pass the time. Usually its beneficial for both student and professor by doing this. If you cant find something on your own, the VP of Research or other admin office might just know whom to ask. I'm sure the UK has similar programs.In many cases, the above situation leads to an invite to graduate school, or an introduction to a corporate research sponsor, or scholarships...End Rantex...While I have done some spectacular things in technology as a non-EE, I feel like I always have to work TWICE as hard as the guys with the Degree..STAY IN SCHOOL!Steve

author: John Coloccia
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2016, 08:25:28 pm
content: There was an engineer that I worked with at a previous company who I subsequently tracked down hired some years later. He didn't have an engineering degree, or anything like that. I had to fight to hire him, but I knew him and wanted him badly. If not for that, he might still be stuck doing crappy LabView technician kinds of things, but the fact is that he's a fantastic engineer. We both left that company years ago, but we keep in touch and he's right at the top of my list of people that I'd love to work with again as a peer, and I would hire him to work for me again in heartbeat if I ever had the chance. But man, it wasn't trivial convincing folks to give him a chance just based on my word, and it was one of these, "You had BETTER be right about this guy or you're in trouble," and of course I was right.He's just fine now. At some point, your education background becomes less important and your experience more important, but that point doesn't happen for a while....10 years, maybe. Maybe more, and in some cases maybe never.It's very true that having the right degree holders as part of your staff is helpful for some companies, especially if you're doing government work.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 03, 2016, 02:15:26 am
content: Quote from: John Coloccia on December 02, 2016, 08:25:28 pmI know three individuals like this. In the very top group of engineers I have ever known and non-degreed. In spite of this I advise everyone who possibly can to finish their degree. Several reasons in no particular order.The talent to succeed without a degree is rare. It is far more likely that you can finish the degree than that you have the talent.For some organizations the degree is a requirement, throughout the career path. You don't absolutely have to work for one of those organizations, but why eliminate the possibility?Lack of a degree will negatively impact your income in almost all organizations. Unless you are fully satisfied with being at the bottom of the salary pool why fight this?Most people actually learn something useful in the course of earning a degree. How much and what varies, but it is almost never without use. Not infrequently it is something that you wouldn't have thought to add to your toolbox on your own.As in the example John mentioned the path to success without a degree is frequently more difficult, and more heavily dependent on the support of colleagues, mentors and prior employers. Each of the three individuals I know ended up fine, but had some tough times along the way. In spite of their very real talent.

author: VK3DRB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 03, 2016, 03:25:34 am
content: One of the most capable electronics gurus I worked with didn't have a degree. He had dropped out of uni years before. But due to discrimination by proud "smart arses" and generally less-than-competent engineers, he decided to go back and finish his degree. He is still a top engineer, but he does not have to put up with the discrimination. Another reason to STICK WITH IT.I heard from an engineering headhunter that when you get older, you will be discriminated against based upon your age, irrespective of your qualifications and experience. It is called ageism and this form of discrimination is everywhere in Australia. Some yuppies will simply not hire you because you are older, no matter how good you are. However I suspect if you have the degree, you have a higher chance of working later in life than if you don't. One yuppy I worked with (Mr. "FIGJAM") discriminated against those who did not have an MBA or were studying for one (because he had one) and promoted younger people over older people. Figjam is now in his 50's. Ironically, one might hope in his case that what goes around comes around maybe.There is no room for discrimination based upon age, sex, nationality, skin colour etc. But it happens. I only discriminate based upon analogue vs. digital orientation.

author: Galenbo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2016, 05:08:52 pm
content: Quote from: daveshah on December 01, 2016, 12:47:25 pmYou won't anymore once you experience corporate culture.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2016, 05:27:28 pm
content: I know a guy with no college degree that presents himself professionally as a Professor, MD. Sometimes there is a '(hon)' near his title and sometimes not. This is a true story.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2016, 05:32:24 pm
content: Quote from: zapta on December 12, 2016, 05:27:28 pmI have known guys like that too. And have watched one of them walked out the door when a documentation check showed that the claim was a fraud.I don't know what happens when the person has a "mail order degree". As long as no claims beyond reality have been made it might be an interesting test for HR.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2016, 05:48:23 pm
content: Quote from: CatalinaWOW on December 12, 2016, 05:32:24 pmThese days its a Doctorate in Postal Studies.

author: darko31
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2016, 08:39:15 pm
content: I have to agree on previous posts, after third year, everything else is pretty much walk in the park. After excruciating third year, which I barely managed to pass, not passing one subject, fourth year is a breeze.About bullying, just ignore them or stand up for yourself, and find like minded people.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2016, 09:36:20 pm
content: I don't know why it is done this way, but the excruciating third year is widespread. And at least partially intentionally so. I was once hired as an adjunct professor at a state school. I was to teach a third year class, and while there was nothing in writing I was encouraged to be tough on the class, and fail those who didn't cut it. One reason they wanted me to do it was that as a non-permanent member of the staff my reputation and statistics didn't matter.There were clearly folks in the class who should have been put out a couple of years before (but also many very good and able students).

author: kxenos
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2016, 09:55:33 pm
content: Quote from: daveshah on December 02, 2016, 05:02:15 pmThis is easy to fix:1. You get a baseball bat or something of equivalent mass.2. You smack them in their mouth until you see no teeth and their mouth bleeds and they are on the floor begging for mercy.3. You hit them some more just because, until they don't move any more.4. Notice who speaks better now!See! easy!

author: rheb1026
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2016, 10:48:57 pm
content: Someone sent me this picture when I was struggling through engineering school. Many, many times I contemplated quitting. I'm glad that I didn't because looking back, earning that degree is one of my proudest moments (though I didn't realize it at the time).

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2016, 11:56:50 pm
content: Quote from: rheb1026 on December 12, 2016, 10:48:57 pmOf course the engineer is 40 by the time he breaks even in an instantaneous sense but I'd have to think about the integral of satisfaction over time. I don't think that evens out until about 70. I don't think the chart is helpful!I didn't go to school to be an EE as much as I wanted to know how numerical control worked. I was working as an industrial electrician installing gigantic machines with hundreds of cutting horsepower and precision motion. All controlled by a 1" paper tape. I started college specifically to learn how the controls worked. By the time I really understood the electronics and the servo systems, it was time to graduate. Grad school came a bit later and was something i did on a whim because the college was just down the street and the company paid the expenses.

author: Iwanushka
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2016, 12:25:10 am
content: Quote from: CatalinaWOW on December 12, 2016, 09:36:20 pmThis is called teaching "life" and somehow it's always happens 3rd year for bachelors, and 1.5 years of Masters...

author: Howardlong
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2016, 12:36:26 pm
content: Quote from: darko31 on December 12, 2016, 08:39:15 pmFor info, in the UK outside Scotland, the standard bachelor degree is a three year academic course, with three terms/year. There are exceptions to this, such as sandwich courses with industrial placements or combined masters and bachelors, but three years is the standard. The degree subject matter is less broad and more focussed, and it's unusual to switch courses in the middle: you generally choose at the outset what you're going to do.Scotland has a different process, and degrees are typically four years, and not having experienced it myself I can't comment how that works.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2016, 06:40:21 pm
content: Quote from: Howardlong on December 13, 2016, 12:36:26 pmAt one of the local universities, the EE program requires 151 semester units. At most, a student can handle 15 units per semester and I don't believe this particular university provides 3 semesters per year. So, figure on 5 years to get a BSEE. That's a long, long time. The good news is that general education courses (history, enlish, public speaking and similar) are minimal so more of the units are focused on the major. It looks like a pretty good program!When I went to school, it took 140 units (give or take) and it was possible to do it in 4 years because the college offered 3 semesters per year. This was at night, after a full shift as an electrician, so it was a bit of a struggle. I had really good grades for the first two years but they started to sink in the 3rd and 4th years. My major held up but some of the non-essential courses started to drop off a bit. It's hard to keep at it for 4 long years after working full shifts and occasional overtime (10 hours, six days wasn't unusual).