First Pick and Place machine - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: zerohimself
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2020, 01:44:51 am
content: Alright, I currently run a small shop making about 10-20 of about 5 different PCB's everyday, all containing 0805 & 0603, and similar sized components along with a second process for PTH components.I have no EE background before i setup this shop about 2 years ago, and have been learning along the way.I really want to get an entry level ($4000-9000) pick and place line (ie i can live without a stencil printer, or oven, but they would greatly help).I've been reading up on the charmhigh machines, and think i want to go for either the CHMT48VB or the CHMT560P4. I was also looking at the CHMT36, but was leaning away due to the reduced # of feeders.I already have some semi decent knowledge of 3d printers(ie so i'm not scared to repair things if needed!!), and despite my current lack of knowledge, am willing to learn whatever i need to learn.Can anyone give some recommendations/thoughts/better suggestions?Specifically does I'm leaning towards the CHMT48VB due to the increased # of feeders.Does anyone have any suggestions as to why the CHMT560P4 might be a better choice?Or why the CHMT36 might be a better fit?I already know i'm buying a machine to a budget, and I feel I have reasonable expectations for the price point.

author: GerardG
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2020, 07:56:27 am
content: Hello,I can not state anything about the CHM products.The Neoden4 with conveyor will be outside your budget.We are the distributor for Neoden products for Europe.All service request and spare parts can be handled by our service department in the Netherlands.We have sold more then 216 machines throughout Europe. Some of our customers have more then 1 machine for their production.Best regards,Gerard

author: jmelson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2020, 04:18:14 pm
content: If you have the room, you might consider a used "big" machine. I keep looking at these small Chinese machines, and am amazed at how far they have come lately. But, in 2007, I bought a used Philips CSM84. They were old-school machines, but built like tanks. They use centering jaws to center the part on the nozzle. Mine has 3 nozzle holders, so I have two sets of jaws on two of the heads set up for 0603 up to 1206 or so passives, and the next one for SOIC-16 and similar-sized chips. I have no jaws on the 3rd nozzle, and made my own nozzle as big as it would take.That nozzle is used for FPGAs and other large parts. The machine came with a mechanical alignment station in the back that centers the part on the nozzle. Although this model could be fitted with vision, I don't have that option on mine. It does have a sensor that can detect the fiducial marks by walking a tiny light dot across them in an X-Y pattern. I got this machine for about $3600 with a bunch of feeders and extras.So, that is just another avenue you might explore.I set up my own reflow oven using a toaster oven, and made a frame to hold my boards for manual paste printing.I have done over 2000 boards with this setup. I do passives down to 0603 and FPGAs up to TQFP-144 with 0.5 mm lead pitch. These fine-pitch parts require manual inspection to touch up the alignment before reflow.Jon

author: jmelson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2020, 04:21:12 pm
content: Oh, yes, definitely do not allow yourself to get boxed in on number of feeders! You will always find you need more. Also, note that wider parts take up 2 (or more) feeder positions. My CSM84 has 35 normal feeder locations on the front, plus an 8-lane vibratory feeder for stick parts, and some of my boards need almost every position. (I do have another 35 or so positions in back, but it is a hassle to get back there and service them.)Jon

author: glenenglish
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2020, 07:50:39 pm
content: Suggest Kayo A4 machine. (cheaper and easier to freight and move than A4L)

author: Harjit
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2020, 11:58:03 pm
content: This topic has come up before. I would look through those threads, too.SparkFun had some blog posts on their transition to a PnP machine. I would read that. It was very informative.

author: zerohimself
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2020, 05:10:08 am
content: Quote from: Harjit on April 03, 2020, 11:58:03 pmI have read that already! and watched a bunch of videos about the CHMT machines. That is what is making lean towards those specific models, while I have heard good things about both, everyone has an opinion(ie. don't get this one becuase it's stand alone, or get this one because you can hook up your computer, or get this one because the job files are human readable. I wish I could find someone who has used both to answer some questions about easy(or lack thereof) of use, or maybe some machine specific questions about my how compatible it might be with my process. I really don't want to spend $9k on an entire setup just to realize I can only pick and place one side of the board, and still have to hand stencil and reflow the 2nd half manually.But, i'll keep digging more!

author: Chad.Wagner
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2020, 06:01:02 pm
content: I looked at the new Neoden S1 and then settled on the NeoDen4. I have been waiting on parts for my first run.

author: shanekent
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2020, 03:37:19 am
content: I bought and received my Charmhigh CHMT48VB at the beginning of March of this year and I've used it for a handful of smaller board runs. So far I've been extremely pleased with the quality of machine and the accuracy of the placement. I would highly recommend you buy the machine with vision support because without it the placement is absolutely horrible.You will definitely need a solid, sturdy surface for the machine to rest on if you want to run it at any speed faster than 60-70% its top speed.The documentation is OK, not horrible and not great. Most of the problems are translation issues, but other than that it walks through the basics on how to do pretty much everything.I would probably recommend the 48VB for two reasons: (1) it never hurts to have more feeders and (2) the thumbdrive that they provide you with to install their software onto a separate PC (i.e. like you would for the 36V) is horribly infected with viruses. No shock there considering the machine is coming from overseas.I'm happy to answer any specific questions that you may have about the CHMT48VB in particular.-S

author: Rat_Patrol
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2020, 10:55:12 pm
content: Quote from: shanekent on April 07, 2020, 03:37:19 amThat in itself has made my decision to not use that company. I'm in the market as well, and I'm leaning toward the Neoden 4.