[FS]: Cheapest tinned printed circuit boards (PCB's) - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: msdesigner
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2013, 07:22:26 am
content: Hello everybody,I present you attached the cheapest manufacturing way, for single (double) pcb layer ( home made ) with semi-professional look , starting with 0,0375 Euro / cm2. ( around 0,05 USD / cm2 )Can be also TINNED the copper traces and pad's and with SILKSCREEN ( components mask with back color ).If someone ( without technical possibilities and required time ) need to build a prototype board or very small quantity ( up to 10 pcs / pcb ) , please feel free to contact me to : msdesignerpro@gmail.comI can deliver you all over the world , in cheapest way , through National postal mail services.Kind Regards,MSdesigner Pro

author: msdesigner
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2013, 11:14:38 am
content: latest tinned pcb on FR4 is attached.

author: 8086
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2013, 11:26:13 am
content: Seeedstudio is cheaper if you order 10 boards. And they are professionally manufactured, with soldermask/silkscreen.What's your USP?

author: msdesigner
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2013, 11:37:28 am
content: Of course that specialized firms ( factories ) can make cheaper but the problem seems to be quantity , as you already mentioned.But not only the quantity is the rule..........the main rule remain ordered surface / order.The "professional look" of board it depends of file quality in more than 75 %.With 1200 dpi black traces , the quality is near industrial released.Most of presented pcb's are done it from jpeg images with 300 dpi ( 600 dpi sometimes )TINNING is better than SOLDERMASK ( sometimes ) ,,,,,,,, and is more expensive.Anyhow I don't want to compete with nobody ....'cause is only a weekend hobby and will remain like this.My pcb's are done for prototyping , home made application and for private use.The minimum order to me is one pce !!!( and never mind the minimum size / pcb )All the best,Mihai

author: Christopher
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2013, 02:45:45 pm
content: Can you post a picture of a board made with SMT ICs? Can you do TSSOP packages etc.Please post your minimum track widths and minimum spacings

author: msdesigner
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2013, 02:57:11 pm
content: Christopher, I please you to send me an e-mail ( from your private one ) , and I will search for some picture ( in my archive ) as you have asked.If you have something with SMT please send there the file and I'll give you complete details.Regards,Mihai

author: msdesigner
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2013, 02:59:48 pm
content: already uploaded picture called : CIRCUIT-IMPRIMAT-DUBLU-STRAT-STICLO-FR4-SMD.jpg ( green FR4 board ) has mixed SMD + ordinary components.

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2013, 03:05:36 pm
content: Those are some fat traces! Come on, I can do 8/8 in my kitchen! Post a demo that actually shows your capabilities...

author: msdesigner
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2013, 03:18:57 pm
content: Here is only a general presentation.I already mention above , that can be obtain the 0,1 mm traces width spaced at 0,1 mm ,from 1200x1200 dpi pdf print quality.Any project is different, and pcb's are done in different way according file accuracy and density of traces / pad's.I manufacture pcb's ONLY the one's without technical possibilities and of course I'm not the one able to do that.Is not the enough " space " here to talk anything in " general " .Thanks for your understanding.Mihai

author: Skimask
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2013, 03:29:15 pm
content: I smell something.Can't quite put my finger in it though...

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2013, 03:33:07 pm
content: iTead demo cardMake one.You don't need my PCBs to just show us your capabilities. Either you can do 6/6, 8/8, or whatever, or you can't!

author: GeoffS
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 13, 2013, 03:36:40 pm
content: How about you post a list of your capabilities for every one to read, not just those that send you an email?

author: msdesigner
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2013, 03:47:45 pm
content: OK!....I will post also a DEMO BOARD but can say " nothing" till I can't see the real pcb project.Quote from: GeoffS on July 13, 2013, 03:36:40 pm

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2013, 03:49:17 pm
content: Why? If your capabilities are well defined you should be able to do anything within them.

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2013, 04:13:14 pm
content: No, I'm not interested. As I said, I can do these in my kitchen... And keep your communication in public like an honest person. Why do you think you can't say anything on the forum??

author: msdesigner
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2013, 04:29:52 pm
content: My friend, I'm sorry but I really have not so available time to spend on this forum.That why I can not say anything on this forum.I'm mechanical engineer , and PCB's manufacturing is just a weekend's hobby.I'm from Romania , and I try to help as much as I can all people interested to make own PCB.As you already seen in posted pictures .......there is not the " high-end technology " of pcb's manufacturing.So, I hope that you understand in finally my point of view.All the best,Mihai

author: Dave
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2013, 05:05:15 pm
content: Quote from: msdesigner on July 13, 2013, 04:29:52 pmRight. And I can make a fully functional jetpack in my basement - I just never bothered to do it.

author: msdesigner
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2013, 07:32:49 am
content: You can find below some other pcb's of mine.

author: Skimask
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2013, 07:57:06 am
content: Yep...do those in the shop too, with one hand (for at least another couple of weeks anyways) , and a sharpie marker...

author: msdesigner
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2013, 08:36:01 am
content: Any inquiry for TINNED - DRILLED pcb's to : msdesignerpro@gmail.comI can make also SILKSCREEN ( components mask with black /white color) , if silkscreen file is provided too.

author: Skimask
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2013, 03:33:06 pm
content: Could those drill holes be any LESS consistent?

author: msdesigner
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2013, 04:20:59 pm
content: Drilling quality depends, in more than 95 %, of hole diameter of pad.So , if usually the drilling it is with 0,7 mm the hole diam. of pad should be 0,72-0,75 for better drilling.Most of presented pcb's are done it from jpeg's with max 300 dpi and without properly designing of holes.Regards to everybody .........from Romania,Mihai

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2013, 04:44:42 pm
content: Quote from: msdesigner on July 13, 2013, 04:29:52 pmAttached is 1200dpi (1.6 by 1.3 inch). It passes 8/8 DRC, so surely it shouldn't be a problem for you?

author: Skimask
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2013, 04:48:09 pm
content: Quote from: msdesigner on July 14, 2013, 04:20:59 pmRegardless, it looks like the drill table was being operated in the bed of a truck while travelling down an unpaved road.

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2013, 04:52:08 pm
content: Look, there's nothing wrong with what you're doing. Honestly, Ihatedoing PCBs, I'd much rather be designing them. I'd have no problem using something like this if it's cheap and works. But you need to come up with a proper specification of what you are capable of (see ITEAD, for instance, and then do it better than them because their specs are a pain to read sometimes...), and stop lying (no, you damn well cannot do PC motherboard density and you know it - that or you've never seen a PC motherboard).And drop the JPEG crap. Take Gerbers and render them yourself. If you insist on using an image format, choose something that supports physical dimensions like SVG, PDF, Postscript, etc, and use something lossless.

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2013, 04:57:10 pm
content: Quote from: Skimask on July 14, 2013, 04:48:09 pmI get better drill registration with the PCB in a vise and a Dremel in my hand.

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2013, 05:27:53 pm
content: I still doubt you can do motherboard density. You said it's "only a weekend hobby". Hobby stuff doesn't work that way. I know I can't do that kind of density, and no matter how much money/cm2somebody offers me, I won't be able to pull that out of my ass without a huge investment.Still, I will be impressed if that demo board comes out.By the way, the tiny white lines running across the square pads are an artifact of the way I had to render the graphic. Yet another reason I think you should just take Gerbers. But they're too narrow to matter; they shouldn't give you any trouble.

author: msdesigner
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2013, 05:32:34 pm
content: My friend will continue any discussion ......in next weekend.I'll be back........bye.

author: Skimask
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2013, 05:36:25 pm
content: And 300 dpi?On a 6/6 design, either gonna get .00333 or .00666. One is entirely too small, the other out of spec large.Whatcha gonna do now?

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2013, 05:39:14 pm
content: Quote from: Skimask on July 14, 2013, 05:36:25 pmQuote from: msdesigner on July 13, 2013, 11:37:28 amI gave him 1200 dpi as he requested.

author: msdesigner
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2013, 05:40:31 pm
content: My friend here is evening now and I must prepare myself for a new job week. ( I'm working in 3D mechanical designing field .....as mechanical engineer)

author: mrflibble
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2013, 07:57:15 pm
content: That's okay, we can check back next week. That should give you some time to finish the board so you can demo your capabilities, as well as give a representative indication of job turnaround times and responsiveness.I think it's safe to say that when someone wants for example 10 boards, then you are not just competitive with Itead and the likes. So maybe you could give some examples of where your service makes sense? Maybe there is a niche market that I fail to see here?And if you are really serious, then you had better start accepting gerber files, and not expect people to supply you with 1200 dpi image files.

author: mariush
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2013, 08:14:12 pm
content: I think you're really hard on him. He didn't really claim he can do 6/6 and other miniature stuff until you pressed him.. the first post says clearly it's amateur boards (home made), not professional boards.It's pretty obvious that he learned how to do these boards and did quite enough of them to have some confidence in himself, enough to offer his services for others. Good for him - if I wasn't so busy with other things, I would do it myself.It's not professional boards, it's not super thin traces, but from the pictures they look like decent boards. Lower your expectations, you can estimate from being home made boards what kind of equipment he has, what kind of printing quality he can accomplish and so on..If someone wants a board to solder one of his/her breadboard projects and turn it into something more definitive this guys' services could be great.I know I personally don't go to someone like Itead simply because it takes 3-4 weeks to get a board back. As I'm living in the same country as he is, I know for sure the national post works pretty well and a board would probably get to any place in Europe within 5-10 working days and about 12-15 days for US and other places across oceans... it's certainly much better than waiting 3-4 weeks at the very least (because they get stuck in customs for extra checks) for stuff to come from China.

author: mrflibble
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2013, 08:19:24 pm
content: Quote from: mariush on July 14, 2013, 08:14:12 pmI hope I am not being to hard on the guy. I am really trying to see the use case for this. If he can do something that our Chinese brethren cannot, then he should point it out.Maybe even as simple as: if you live <close_to_where_i_live> and you send in your file <just_in_time_for_the_weekend> then you have pretty good chance of getting things in the post next week. Or maybe he could do single sided board with extra thick copper for some power electronics on the cheap. or or or...Right now I don't quite see why/how I would use this service as opposed to cheapo chinese boards.

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2013, 08:27:04 pm
content: No, I'm the one who was being hard on him. Hedidsay "PC motherboard" density, which is just silly, and he still insists he can do that. That said, I might call people out on perceived bullshit, but I don't hold grudges, if he can make good on his claimed capabilities I won't have a problem with this at all. Hell, if he were to demonstrate anything near "motherboard" density I'd etch him an apology on PCB...

author: msdesigner
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2013, 04:16:47 pm
content: tinned printed circuit boards

author: Phaedrus
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2013, 04:24:50 pm
content: Looks like ok quality, but still an order of magnitude away from PC motherboard density.

author: msdesigner
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2013, 04:34:28 pm
content: I please all users to not insist about PC density boards.Who want this is free to send me the pcb file to my e-mail and I'll tell him the cost.PCB's presented are based on different inquiries.Who is not really interested , not only to comment without to be able to post at least some pcb's like these , is better to say nothing.Quote from: Phaedrus on July 15, 2013, 04:24:50 pm

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2013, 04:48:46 pm
content: Dude, when you post an advertisement to a forum, you are opening yourself to criticism, so you better hope you can take it!You said PC motherboard density, so yes, people are going to criticize you for that. If you can't do it, apologize and say you can't, don't tell people to shut up about it.Now, something positive, before I soundtoocurmudgeonly - I do like the look of the boards. The tinned traces have a nice "old school" look to them, and I would consider using your service if I were anywhere near you.But play nicely. You're in a forum - it's a conversation, not a television commercial.

author: mrflibble
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2013, 04:51:12 pm
content: @msdesigner:For double sided boards, what via size do you prefer for designs?

author: msdesigner
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2013, 04:53:19 pm
content: some new printed circuit boards

author: mrflibble
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2013, 05:01:03 pm
content: Repeating yourself does not an answer make. But if you cannot be bothered to answer a simple question (what via size) in a forum, then allow me to reciprocate by not bothering to send you an inquiry by e-mail.

author: msdesigner
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2013, 05:09:11 pm
content: Dear user c4757p , I think that is better to show us also your pcb's done.Only to say something against is not the right way.Also your " language " used till that moment about my post , shown me your level education.I'm not obliged to prove my capabilities to nobody, I HAVE ONLY PRESENT SOME PROJECTS OF MINE.You can continue to say everything you want.I'm sorry, but your attitude will make me to ignore you.Good luck with your projects and your business.

author: msdesigner
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2013, 05:12:19 pm
content: send me the file of pcb by e-mail.........and I will tell you what is OK ! and what isn't .Quote from: mrflibble on July 15, 2013, 05:01:03 pm

author: 8086
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2013, 05:16:01 pm
content: Quote from: msdesigner on July 15, 2013, 05:12:19 pmYou don't expect people to design their boards by trial and error, do you?You either have specified constraints that people can work to, or you end up playing cat and mouse with frustrated customers.

author: mrflibble
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2013, 05:16:19 pm
content: Quote from: msdesigner on July 15, 2013, 05:09:11 pmI think you're getting a tad defensive here. If you look at this from the business point of view, your typical pcb manufacturer will not require you to show you past project to qualify to have some pcb's made.So, last time I ask, and try not to get huffy and defensive: "what kind of via size can you do / do you prefer?"

author: mrflibble
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2013, 05:18:59 pm
content: Quote from: msdesigner on July 15, 2013, 05:12:19 pmO_o That seems a bit roundabout... Okay, pretend I just sent you a file with 0.3 mm and 0.5 mm vias in it. Can you do those?

author: msdesigner
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2013, 05:25:27 pm
content: 0,3 yes !O_o That seems a bit roundabout... Okay, pretend I just sent you a file with 0.3 mm and 0.5 mm vias in it. Can you do those?

author: msdesigner
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2013, 05:32:04 pm
content: the errors ....could exist of course .......by side of pcb designer .........and also from me !What I don't like is , if people want latest technology about pcb's ( 0,1 mm traces ..32 layers ............... with 1 $ ...........That why I have this attitude .............but I realize in fact that they know nothing about pcb's..............I never played like " mouse with cat with nobody " ........I have a very good references about the ones which ordered pcb's to me.Is not a business....and never will be .......in pcb's manufacturing. .......I only play !Quote from: 8086 on July 15, 2013, 05:16:01 pm

author: 8086
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2013, 05:35:15 pm
content: Quote from: msdesigner on July 15, 2013, 05:32:04 pmBut you're the one saying you can do "motherboard" quality PCBs...I'm not saying everyone wants tiny PCB tracks and micro vias, etc. Just that people want to know what you can do! Then they can design boards to your spec. It makes life easier! Don't you want to make it easy for your customers? Or maybe you just want to insult them? o_O

author: msdesigner
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2013, 05:39:13 pm
content: Bellow , some tinned pcb's

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2013, 05:52:46 pm
content: All the ping-pong in comments aside msdesigner managed to fill4 pages with pictures of pcb's and his email address. Search machines pick this up ... free advertisement for him . I see this as a clever 'hack' of a popular forum to get business.@ msdesigner : if you want to be serious about what you are doing give us a bit of information- what drill sizes do you have available ? can you drill a 0.5mm hole ? a 0.4 mm ? a 0.3 mm hole ?- how much copper do you need around the hole ? 6 mils ? 8 mils ? 10 mil ?- how much opening do you need between 2 traces ? 6 mil ? 8 mil ? 10 mil ?- can you do double sided ?the answer to the above question will let people design boards that fall well within your capabilities. we can't just design board blind , we need design rules. without rules a board is not designed but 'slapped together'.Judging from the foto's you are not drilling with tungsten carbide nor a spindle. i see plenty of pads that have 'volcano' holes ( meaning the copper is lifted up form the board around the hole ). this leads me to the conclusion you are hand-drilling , with the wrong drills/ old drills / spent drill at the wrong speed and pressure.

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2013, 06:03:36 pm
content: Quote from: msdesigner on July 15, 2013, 05:09:11 pmI gave numerous suggestions as well, I didn't only put down what you're doing. I thought the bit about using image formats which support physical dimensions was rather helpful, as well as what we all keep talking about - a list of your specifications! I'm not just telling you you're terrible. Quit reading with your eyes closed.Most of my PCBs are either inside devices, which I can't be bothered to take apart, or in the trash. I don't keep perfectly good ones lying around, and sorry, I didn't take any pictures of them before that.QuoteBite me.QuoteOf course you're not. I'm trying to explain to you that you would get more customers if you did something a certain way. You're not obliged to prove your capabilities, and we're not obliged to pay you for them.

author: msdesigner
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2013, 06:07:01 pm
content: Yes ! you have right ..this " ping-pong: I don't like it too.The holes on CEM3 looks as you said.I'll be back in next days with some technical aspects about sizes ( holes traces )As you can see in FR4 holes are properly done it .After soldering this aspects about holes .......... will be not.Yes! you have right is helpfull for designing to know from beginning the allowed holes , traces. .......................I never had in mind somthing like " hack way for business" ...............I work in one multinational company ( 3D mechanical designer ) .............and I'm really NOT interested for any incoming from my hobby ( pcbs manufacturing)About this forum : YES ! .....seems to be famous ..like some other forums .....with plenty of visitors and users.Quote from: free_electron on July 15, 2013, 05:52:46 pm

author: msdesigner
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2013, 06:07:56 pm
content: Quote from: msdesigner on July 15, 2013, 05:50:56 pm

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2013, 06:13:49 pm
content: Look, I don't mean to be an asshole. I understand you're just doing this as a hobby thing and don't mean for it to be big business, and yes, it can be daunting when other people expect it to be. I tried to offer a few helpful suggestions, and yes, I got a bit grumpy about the "PC motherboard" thing. I don't mean to make you feel like I'm bombarding you with criticism, I just want to help you fix a few things so people will take this more seriously. Apologies if it came across as mean.But lose the comments about people's "level of education". That's not how you should handle criticism, no matter how harsh it is.

author: msdesigner
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2013, 06:26:03 pm
content: I did not said anything "dirty" or "bad" about you ............ if you look again to all your comments from my post , maybe yo'll give me the right !Who I am to judge you ? .....but others who'll see this that post maybe will have the same opinion about you..........but this topic and this forum is not about this kind of discussions.CONCLUSION for my pcb's :- LOWEST PRICE / QUALITY- MINIMUM QUANTITY : 1 PCE- PRICE / PCB IS NOT DEPENDING OF NUMBER OF ORDERED BOARDS- VERY GOOD QUALITY FOR HOME-MADE AND PROTOTYPING APPLICATIONS...............................Quote from: c4757p on July 15, 2013, 06:13:49 pm

author: M. András
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2013, 07:04:51 pm
content: seriously, just make a demo board from 1 of the pcb manufacturers list in the beginning of this thread there was the itead's demo pcb if you do that or say the specs it would be better without pages of advertisment, nobody in their right mind will send you files and pay for a result and end up being disappointed

author: msdesigner
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2013, 07:08:34 pm
content: Everybody is free to choose what is the best for him.Quote from: M. András on July 15, 2013, 07:04:51 pm

author: M. András
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2013, 07:58:11 pm
content: you state you are a mechanical engineer 3d modelling etc. then you know that you cannot design things without knowing the manufacturers capability. i cannot do a piece of metalwork on a model for a 5 axis cnc maxhine if the manufacturer only have 2 manual mills. i hope you understand what i mean by this.

author: Skimask
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2013, 10:37:09 pm
content: I see the O/P isSTILLdancing around the subject...

author: msdesigner
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 20, 2013, 09:42:15 am
content: Attached is the printed circuit board, just released , as c4757p user inquiry.Sorry for picture quality ( did it with old mobile phone camera )Anyway the pcb looks much better than in picture.For perfect traces, I can make it with another technology ( more expensive), but attached pcb I did it in cheapest way , and looks great for home-made release. I consider that is more than enough forFREE DEMO PRESENTATIONof printed circuit board.I try to make better pictures of this pcb ( with details) in next days, but I will not post them here in this topic ( only to private e-mail outside of this forum )In order to solder on this pcb you need at least 20x magnifier lens.Quote from: c4757p on July 14, 2013, 04:44:42 pm

author: Bored@Work
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 20, 2013, 10:23:46 am
content: Quote from: Skimask on July 15, 2013, 10:37:09 pmThe OP has a special place in the hearts of the moderators. They like how he is taking us for a ride.

author: GeoffS
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 20, 2013, 11:46:00 am
content: This user was placed on the ban list a few days ago after a reported post. For some reason the ban didn't activate.This oversight has been corrected.