Lab Equipment Purchase Sanity Check - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: nathon
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 17, 2013, 07:12:04 pm
content: Hey everyone. I'm looking to make a major purchase of bench equipment and wanted to do a sanity check with all of you. I want to make sure I'm not overlooking a much better deal or buying something that I shouldn't.As with everything, some context is good.- These will be used on my home lab bench.- They will be used mostly for hobby work.- I want the best "bang for the buck".- I'm purchasing from the United States.- I don't mind paying a little more to get a lot more feature.- I would like to spend around $4, 000.00 US but am a little flexible with that.- I would like everything to be LAN/LXI enabled so I can use my PC with them.- I would like to have high enough sample rate and enough memory that I don't run into resolution problems.- The oscilloscope should be at least 100MHz and 4 channels.That being said, I am flexible. Those are just some criteria to get started. Here is what I have been quoted from TEquipment.net.OSCILLOSCOPE- Rigol DS1104Z-S 100MHz 4-channel Oscilloscope- MEM-DS1000Z 24 Mpts Memory Option- AT-DS1000Z Advanced Trigger Option- SA-DS1000Z Serial Decoding Option- REC-DS1000Z Waveform Record OptionMULTIMETER- Rigol DM3068 6.5 Digit Digital MultimeterPOWER SUPPLY- Rigol DP832A Programmable 3-Channel Power SupplyWAVE FORM GENERATOR- Rigol DG4102 2 - CHANNEL 100MHz Waveform GeneratorSOFTWARE- Rigol UltraStation AdvanceTOTAL$4056.50 (Shipped)So that is what I was thinking of buying, but the 4000 series oscilloscope has also been in my mind. I don't like the low memory of the 1000 series but it comes with the signal analyzer which I don't see on the 4000 series. I also don't see any trigger options or any of the other options on the 4000's. Is this because it all comes standard? I also just saw a review of the 1000 series by Dave and it has scared me from the 1000 series scopes.Any help with with what I should get would really be appreciated!

author: calexanian
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 17, 2013, 07:40:20 pm
content: Not familiar enough with Rigol to really comment even though as I understand it the low end tek stuff we use is made by them or the same factory, etc... If you don't already have them simple things like decade substitution boxes, genuine pomona minigrabbers (All other hook type clips are junk) your standard array of bnc cables and probes, banana plugs and etc etc etc will all need to be budgeted in. Also look at your soldering equipment. you may find you get more utility out of a metcal or other good soldering station than the better scope. I personally could not do business without my metcal and its blade cartridges for surface mount prototyping, rework, etc etc etc. I use my scope a couple times a week, but I use my iron a hundred times a day! Just some thoughts I would be adding, and pardon me please if you already have all that sort of kit. O0

author: Zbig
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 17, 2013, 07:54:20 pm
content: Quote from: nathon on November 17, 2013, 07:12:04 pmWhat's wrong with USB? USB hub costs next to nothing compared to getting everything with a LAN option. I admit I haven't played with PC-connecting of TM equipment much up to now so chances are I'm missing something but that's exactly what I plan to do when building my bench after I move: just dedicate a USB hub for my electronics bench and call it a day. It's in the same room, after all. Bus saturation and/or latency shouldn't be a problem in most cases either, I guess. I always thought the expensive LAN add-ons (along with GPIB) are meant for the already equipped Ethernet-connected labs when the convenience of being able to drop-in-replace a piece of equipment outweighs additional costs.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 17, 2013, 08:02:09 pm
content: Quote from: calexanian on November 17, 2013, 07:40:20 pmNot likely. You may be confused with the low-end Agilent 1000-series scopes. No other Rigol equipment is rebadged by more reputable brands as far as I know.Quote from: calexanian on November 17, 2013, 07:40:20 pmYep, and is surprisingly expensive once you add it all up, especially if you want decent quality. Even Jim Williams complained about test leads, clips and adapters being outrageously expensive, and I'm sure prices have only gone up since. It's not hard to spend a few hundred $ on this.

author: jabramo
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 17, 2013, 08:03:43 pm
content: WOW that's quite the budget....I took this from an article onlineQuoteSo that being said unless you have a 500 Mhz scope lying around skip that sig gen. The cheaper rigol DG1022 is perfectly fine for the money.On top of the sig gen your getting the sig gen option for the 1000Z... Why?Power supply. I'd get a Rigol DP832 without the A since you can add all the features of the A model for free with the keygen...Multimeter again are you sure you need 6.5 digits for 99 percent of projects it's overkill. Maybe the 5.5 440$ DM3058E would be enough I know it's missing lan.Or take a look at thishttps://www.eevblog.com/forum/buysellwanted/(fs)-rigol-dsa815-tg-open-box-(more)/Pete from TEquipment was selling open box stuff for pretty good discounts one of the items presumably still available is the BK 2831E 4.5 meter for 290 however I bet you could negotiate a price closer to 200 flat (One other user went from ~350 to 260 on the same thread).Oscilloscope good choice, skip all the paid options Seems like you went for it all, why buy in excess? Anyways all those options can be had for free with the keygen.You haven't indicated whether your a beginner to the hobby or you know your shit. If you are in fact a beginner most of this stuff seems like overkill. IMO better equipment won't make you a better engineer. Buy what you need and don't buy for the sake of buying who cares if it offers good bang for buck compared to the rest...Also idk if you have it already but I'd suggest a few more thingsA solding iron (Hakko FX-888D, Weller WES51 both perfectly fine for a hobbiest especially beginner both sub 100$)A handheld meter sub 100 in the US you have tons of options, Used fluke 85 or 87 I,II, or V (all go sub 100 on ebay with patience), Amprobes, even Uni T look around the forum there are tons of reviews for various metersI don't mean to be rude, condescending or insulting and I by no means am I an expert (I'm only in my 3rd year of Comp Engineering). However unless you know that you need all this stuff and the functionality as soon as you get it, don't spend 4k on your lab. Things will get faster cheaper smaller as time goes on.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 17, 2013, 08:05:32 pm
content: I wouldn't stare myself blind on requiring a LAN interface on everything. GPIB (VXI, LXI, or whatever it is called this week) works over USB and serial as well.

author: olsenn
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 17, 2013, 08:39:39 pm
content: If I was setting up a new lab, I would get the following:DSO: Rigol DS2072* (keygen available)DMM: Agilent 34461APSU: Rigol DP832 (keygen available)DSA: Rigol DSA815-TG (keygen available)Function Generator: Rigol DG1000Z**LCR: B&K 879BE-Load: Itech IT8511Universal Programmer: Autoelec TL866LA: Saleae Logic16* Do not get the DS072A ('A' model)** Not sure the exact models. Keygen may become available

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 17, 2013, 08:55:58 pm
content: Quote from: jabramo on November 17, 2013, 08:03:43 pmThe same argument about bandwidth vs. fundamental frequency applies to the awg, however. That 100 MHz wavegen isn't going to generate 100 MHz square waves, or very nice 40 MHz square waves (given the 10ns rise time spec), since it's sampling rate and output stage / filter will also limit its frequency response.Quote from: jabramo on November 17, 2013, 08:03:43 pmSome people may prefer to actually pay for the features they're using.I also prefer LAN interfaces. Except old-fashioned GPIB most alternatives are annoying when you have several instruments to control. Multiple RS-232 interfaces require multiple USB-serial adapters, which Windows enumerates in random order and assigns useless COM# identifiers. USB has a fairly limited cable length (5m between instrument and hub/computer) and enumeration order can also be interesting, depending on the exact protocol used (god forbid that you switch cables between ports). Which of them was PS #1 and which was PS #2 again? Drivers also tend to be much easier with LAN interfaces than with USB interfaces which needs a vendor-supplied driver for even basic communication and enumeration (thank you MS). Ethernet just works and you can often get basic functionality with the basic web-interface and any standard web browser. You can easily assign every instrument a unique IP address. That said, you often pay a fairly hefty premium for this feature that you may or may not be willing to pay. Especially since instrument control tends to be a little used feature for most hobbyists.I would certainly try to demo any Rigol software you intend to use. My experience has been that it ranges from 'useless crap' to 'barely usable', but that may be outdated. For example the early Rigol AWG software was very limited and essentially relied on its import from Tektronix ArbExpress for any advanced functionality.

author: kripton2035
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 17, 2013, 09:18:19 pm
content: Quote from: Zbig on November 17, 2013, 07:54:20 pmI prefer LAN connexions for anything because I hate USB ...USB is slow, USB needs a driver, USB does not like long cablewith a LAN you can make a wireless bridge if you want, send orders from the other side of earthLAN connections are integrated in operating systems, USB drivers are not.most of the time, when you have a major system update on your computer, most of specific usb drivers have to be rewrittenstandard usb drivers ( the HID ones) work, but the others not.I know of 20 years ethernet (laser) printers that still works - do you know an usb one ?

author: nathon
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 17, 2013, 09:28:15 pm
content: Thanks everyone for all the feedback. I haven't had time to read through all of it yet, but wanted to reply to a couple of things.No I don't have to have the Waveform generator, but as I learn more I figured it would be more feature rich than the oscilloscope's option. However if I don't need it I could spend that money on the 4000 series oscilloscope instead. That's really why I'm posting all of this; so I can get ideas on things I do or don't need.As for ethernet vs USB, I could use USB but I've had some USB problems with my lab system and figured most of these will come with the option if I'm not getting the bottom level equipment.If I've should drop something for another model or whatever just let me know what to consider please. Also on the solder station, I have an off brand Xytronics digital variable temp station (XY-168D I think). It works fairly well and has a 1.6mm flat tip.I know cables are expensive. I was extremely surprised actually but I figure the ones it comes with will be good for now. I can make a big purchase next year if necessary to get additional if needed.I'll keep reading your valuable feedback and comment again when I'm done.

author: echen1024
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 17, 2013, 09:29:43 pm
content: Forget about the options for the Rigol. Just use the riglol keygen. And A DG4102 is enough, no need for -S

author: nathon
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 17, 2013, 09:49:04 pm
content: A few more answers to questions posed to me.1. Buy lesser models and use keygen.- Although when I was first into tech I couldn't afford to pay for things and had to use pirated keys, I now can and do prefer to buy what I'm using. You also don't get that uneasy feeling when you call support and they find out you have something you shouldn't. Plus in it's most basic form, it's theft... and I don't want to go there.2. Are you a beginner?- In electronic design, yes. I taught myself computers and have been in computer industry for 20 years (systems & network administration, computer build repair, etc). Then I taught myself software development and have been a software engineer for 11 years. I'm now a Sr Software Engineer at a fortune 20 company. Now I want to learn board level electronics. I've learned a lot so far but would definitely consider myself a beginner.3. Do you really need a 6.5 digit oscilloscope?- I recently found myself deficient on necessary tools to properly diagnose an issue with my HP 54501A Oscilloscope. I was able to run through the service manual in several areas areas and tune some things that were out of tolerance, but couldn't test much else with out a more precise DMM, function generator, etc. I don't want to have any restrictions to what I'm trying to do or learn and that means getting high quality and capability tools.If you have any other questions please ask. Also any recommendations for different purchases would be good.

author: echen1024
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 17, 2013, 09:59:32 pm
content: Quote from: nathon on November 17, 2013, 09:49:04 pmYes, for people like me who can't afford the licenses, that's what I use, but if you can afford the licenses, go for it. Help out Rigol develop more products. Also, save some money and don't purchase the -S. A DG4102 will be more than enough.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 17, 2013, 10:22:23 pm
content: Consider Agilent 34461A isnstead of DM3068. $300 more expensive, but it is Agilent with their quality and support. More confidence that it will not drift hugely after some time even if specs are the same at the beginning. Have better AC RMS measurment, works from zero and with high crest factor. Also has some fancy features and big color display. I have DM3068 and can't say that i'm happy with it and especially their service when problem appeared (should be much better in USA though). WHY? Agilent didn't release it 3 months earlier (or announce so I could wait), would certainly buy instead of Rigol.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 17, 2013, 11:09:54 pm
content: QuoteUnless you really need high precision, you'd probably be better off buying 2 or 3 lesser DMMs - you're more likely to need to measure multiple things simulataneously than one thing very accurately.

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 17, 2013, 11:11:16 pm
content: What Mike said.....

author: olsenn
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 17, 2013, 11:16:13 pm
content: Actually, most bench meters, including the DM3068 do measure two things at once; just not the same thing. But yes, I would buy the Agilent as well as a cheap ass handheld meter just so that you have it

author: nathon
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 17, 2013, 11:22:53 pm
content: Thanks. I'll take a look at the Agilent. I did some initial looking but saw their gear was much more expensive. Thanks for the tip!

author: dr.diesel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 17, 2013, 11:26:38 pm
content: Quote from: nathon on November 17, 2013, 07:12:04 pmWhat kind of hobbyist are you? Analog/digital, Ham radio guy, Arduino, screwing with FPGAs or what? Are you currently building anything specific?

author: Harvs
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 17, 2013, 11:46:25 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on November 17, 2013, 11:09:54 pmAbsolutely. To add another degree of usefulness to that, get ones that have some form of PC communication. That way with 2 or 3 lines of Python, VB etc you can do stuff like ratio measurements, power, input/output efficiency etc.

author: nathon
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2013, 04:53:30 pm
content: Thanks for the recommendation. I already have quite a few portable DMMs ranging from a free cheap cap one I wouldn't trust as far as I could throw it to a Test Products International (TPI) Scope Plus 440. What I'm missing is a high precision bench meter for higher end diagnostic work such as tuning my HP 54501A Oscilloscope. I really would rather pay the money and have the capability unless there's a good reason not to (other than cost).

author: echen1024
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2013, 10:49:43 pm
content: Why not look at a used Agilent 34401A

author: nathon
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2013, 01:01:09 am
content: I'll definitely look at the Agilent 34401A. I also like that the Agilent seems to do temperature. I didn't see that on the Rigol. Not to mention the whole voltage regulator and temperature thing has me wary of the Rigol 832s.As for what kind of hobbyist I am, I am more into the education side of it than specific projects. I want to learn how everything works, how to build well designed and useful circuits and devices. My goal is also to be able to develop some bench equipment of my own.I dabble in Arduino stuff as well but my passion is to be really learn electronic design, troubleshooting, repair, etc. inside out. I want to purchase good tools, learn from those wiser than me and eventually be able to do understand how it all works. This is part of my larger goal of knowing the electronics & computer scene from electron to running equipment, systems and software.I've been in the hardware, networking, administration, software design area for 20 years. Now I want to learn the board level and below stuff.

author: olsenn
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2013, 01:15:06 am
content: 34461A, not the 34401A. Go modern

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 19, 2013, 01:25:05 am
content: Rigol has tempareture BTW (but as I said, cannot recommend). Agilent 34401A has no LAN which seems to be important for you. If you choose new Agilent then don't skimp on 34461A with buying 34460A instead. As it has LAN disabled by default and needs to buy LAN option. Also bunch of annoying crippling things while price difference is small. Dave made video about 34461A so might be worth to check it.

author: Fsck
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2013, 01:31:19 am
content: Quote from: olsenn on November 19, 2013, 01:15:06 amadditionally: the 34401a line is about as old as I am and those VFDs are becoming unobtanium (which is the only part guaranteed to fail eventually that you'll have to replace).if you need to go old: go 3457a. many of forum members such as myself are very pleased with ours. if you can grab one for ~300$, you're unlikely to find a better bang for the buck, especially if you find one with the 44491/44492 cards.ditto the 34461a, looks very nice.

author: echen1024
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2013, 02:20:21 am
content: They arereallynice meters. Wish I could afford one...

author: Dave
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2013, 02:47:05 am
content: I know I have a biased opinion, but I find that HP/Agilent generally have really good meters (heck, all test equipment). You can't go wrong with buying one, new or used.

author: echen1024
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2013, 03:23:55 am
content: It's ok. I love Agilent kit as well. Just the cost...

author: nathon
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2013, 11:57:25 am
content: Ahh, looks like I grabbed the wrong model number from one of the replies. BTW I really appreciate all these replies as it is making me much more informed before making this purchase.I've looked at the Agilent 34461A now. It looks like it will be a difference of $335.95 from the Rigol. I can't tell how many inputs it has though. I see 6 ports, but they look like they're for different sets of input levels or functions like a normal meter. I'm not able to see real clearly on that picture with my phone though.I am going to watch Dave's video on the Agilent since I put quite a bit of stock in his reviews.

author: bronson
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2013, 06:55:17 pm
content: There's good DMM info in this thread:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/6-5-digit-datalogging-multimeter-opinions/Based on all the replies, I settled on the Agilent 34461A over the Rigol. Since it's my own money, it's tough to justify the extra $400 but, in this case, when comparing the capabilities and UI, I think it's money well spent. And I love my Rigol 2072, I'm no snob.

author: Circuitous
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 19, 2013, 10:16:32 pm
content: DMMs:I have been using a Rigol DM3068 and an Agilent 34410A for a couple of years. I like a lot of the features on the 3068, it isn't as fast or accurate as the 34410A, but still very good.Yesterday, my Agilent 34461A arrived, and I really like it so far. It's spot on with the accuracy of the 34410A (which is really great), and the 34461A is easy and fairly intuitive to use.As stated earlier, be sure to watch Dave's video on the 34461A.Having one really good precision DMM is great, it can provide confidence in the readings from the lesser meters.Scope:I have the Rigol DSO4024, and purchased the decode options (not Flex-ray). I really do like the unit (my next DSO will probably be an Agilent 40xx someday). The DSO4000 comes with a fairly long trial for the decode options, so conserve the time and really test those out before you decide to buy them... that's what I did. Really, most of the time I can get by with a logic analyzer to do real decode, and I just use the scope to check the clock and enable against the data channel.Signal Generator:I have the Rigol DG1022, it's fine but a bit limited... can only generate square waves up to about 5Mhz (mnaybe less) and the output at that freq was a bit dirty. I plan to get a DG4160 soon... before year end.Soldering Station:If you have the money, then an Ersa or JBC is nice. I have JBC's now, which replaced my Hakko FX-951 irons.For the Agilent DMMs, if you by new, you might check testequity.com I just got a bit of a discount when I requested a quote, along with free shipping... and Tequipment doesn't seem to carry the 34461A.