JLCPCB "random" fees - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: jipihorn
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2024, 11:12:18 am
content: Hello,I recently did orders of PCBs at JLCPCB with what seems to be "random" fees.The design consists of 855x90mm 2 layers board, with ENIG. The ENIG coverage is a little more than 20%of the overall surface (top and bottom).The first order came with an additional fee of $30 because of the large area covered by ENIG. The mail adds a link to the page describing the situation where additional fees are added (https://jlcpcb.com/help/article/In-what-cases-will-there-be-charged-extra?) . The first thing is that they speak about "the whole board" which is not my case. I already paid a fee for large surface board when doing the order. The second one is that, for sample boards, the maximum fee is $15.2 ( and $30/m² for batches). So where this $30 fee for ENIG comes from ?So I wrote to them to get an explanation, with the answer that they will investigate.Now, I saw a problem with the silkscreen, so I cancelled the order. I could do that because the order was on hold for the fee payment.So, I corrected it and ordered it. Same board, same gold area. Second mail received and now, i have to pay a $30 fee for... board larger than 600mm. There is no such fee described in the link they provide.Why is that ? Why the first one has too much ENIG and the very same one (except silkscreen) has too much length afterwards. Are they trying to find a way to get these $30 ?I've asked for an explanation and waiting for the answer...Jerome.

author: tubes3000
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: October 18, 2024, 04:38:56 pm
content: Hi,I have the same fee problem right now. I ordered a panelized PCB for 5x6mm individual and they say they can't cut it and need an extra fee over 20$.Thats 10 times the original cost.In their own capabilties they claim minimum size of 3x3 and recommend panelization.I don't understand why the they can't recognize panelization when ordering then one would already know the prize.I can live with an additional fee if it's in reason...Besides that i never were able to order parts in conjunction with a PCB order. Even if they have their own parts order system now.It is all too complicated and diffused. Or may-be i am too stupid but JLCPCB seems to get too big for the hobbyist...

author: jipihorn
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2024, 06:32:54 pm
content: I've uploaded the same design a third time.Now, it is $45.46 because there are too many holes. It is clearly specified 4000 holes max per design, I have 3500.Somebody must be jokingJerome.

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2024, 09:34:40 pm
content: Maybe they've built in a check that gives them a warning when the cost to produce the board exceeds the cost they are charging for it.I think a drill might last ~800 holes, so thats already 4 bits just for one PCB.Quote from: tubes3000 on October 18, 2024, 04:38:56 pmYou select "Panel by customer" during the quote.

author: oliv3r
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2024, 08:50:11 am
content: Came here to start a thread about JLCPCB tips and tricks, but ran into the same issue. Without coupons I got a 2 layer 10x10 board for 4.30 inc shipping and taxes, I figured that's great; But then they came back to me 'too many designs on a board, that'll be 110 extra.What I was gonna ask, if we have learned about what they consider a design. I read over on hackaday, that someone happily orders multi design panels with mousebites, but they do a copper pour all over. I tried that too, but they still complained and said 'the outline is to complicated, so it's more expensive'.I then removed some PCB fillers, and made it one panel figuring I'll just dremel the PCB's apart. For now these are proto's (and I don't intend to order huge batches), but I have 1 or 2 designs that I may want to order an actual v-cut/mouse-bite panel for; but wonder now what the rules/tips/tricks are we have learned so far to get this to go through.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2024, 09:10:05 am
content: Quote from: oliv3r on October 19, 2024, 08:50:11 amThose are 6 different PCB designs panelized together.Are we now going to complain how "unfair" they are if tricks some people used to order boards that are clearly against the rules don't work anymore.Let me explain:- I needed small 70x30mm 2 layer boards, 5 pieces.- EU proto provider quoted me for it 90 € for 5x. Shipping: 12 €- JLCPCB was 2 USD. Yes, 2USD (2 US dollars) for 5x. Fast DDP shipping+customs: 38 USD.Those 38 USD are for shipping to EU logistics company and EU taxes, mostly taxes on that shipping too.If I had ordered 6 different designs, shipping would be the same, and would be 12 USD for PCBS. And 3-4 USD for taxes more.People should start being realistic how expensive/inexpensive JLCPCB are.These 5 little boards where 50x less expensive than from EU.And then we should also scam them to push few more designs in that same 2 USD...We should respect these people and be thankful they exist.

author: oliv3r
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2024, 10:26:00 am
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on October 19, 2024, 09:10:05 amBut who cares? If it is one design, part of one product? Who cares? I'm more then happy to comply with proper rules (less then X holes per panel, no more then X cutouts), but that's not described. It _feels_ more like a moneygrab. Stating 'that'll be 110 bucks' is unreasonable, as I could also just do 8 panels, each 2 bucks is still only 20.Arbitrary money grabbing rules I don't like. Reasonable rules because of wear-tear of bits; I fully understand.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2024, 11:01:16 am
content: Quote from: oliv3r on October 19, 2024, 08:50:11 amI suspect that one reason JLCPCB discourages panelizing for small quantities is that the low pricing hinges on being able to squeeze little boards into the “waste space” around bigger boards. So when you combine them into a panel, they lose the ability to optimize their production.Just submit them individually, onto the same order. It’s still way cheaper than using a western PCB house…

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2024, 11:23:23 am
content: Quote from: oliv3r on October 19, 2024, 10:26:00 amTheydo.They already charge 50 times less than our EU countryman for same thing.As I said we should respect the other side.They are not our slaves.They feed their families too.And for amount of money that is already 50x less than our countryman.If you want to complain to somebody, write a series of posts how big assholes are our EU companies that charge 100€ for the same work.And write a thank you note to JLCPCB and other eastern companies that makes PCBs affordable to all of us.

author: DavidAlfa
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2024, 11:36:18 am
content: He's not complainign about the price, but at the lack of consistency.Getting random extra fees everytime will make anyone angry, it's not serious.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2024, 11:38:54 am
content: Quote from: tooki on October 19, 2024, 11:01:16 amI presume you are right about reasons.But it is irrelevant. They make the rules in their own house. You can accept them or not.I think their rules are fair and prices (even with very expensive EU shipping and taxes) are still fraction of price of PCB made in EU.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2024, 11:41:44 am
content: Quote from: DavidAlfa on October 19, 2024, 11:36:18 amIn his case there is no lack of consistency. He crammed 6 different PCBs together on same order. Which is in clear violation of rules how they do business.And they refused to do it.And now we have complaints how that is not fair.I disagree.That is all.

author: jduncan
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2024, 11:42:46 am
content: How can people see these absurdly low prices and not understand it's a limited offer, not a true cost?It's like getting upset the free samples people at the supermarket won't let you take the whole tray.One factor enabling JLC to be so affordable is they heavily automate the entire process, obviously optimizing for the most common denominator. When you come along trying to push aspects of the rules to squeeze out every drop of value for yourself, it requires them to allocate extra resources to deal with you, and that has a cost.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2024, 11:49:38 am
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on October 19, 2024, 11:38:54 amAgreed! Beggars can’t be choosers, and let’s face it, their prices are practically free.

author: DavidAlfa
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2024, 11:52:28 am
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on October 19, 2024, 11:41:44 amIt is. You have a special fee for combining different designs.Just apply them, instead randomly hmm let's see what we can argue ... too many holes... too large enig area...OP: Just an advice... they'll usually pass when panellizing same designs.Make panels for each pcb, place an order for each (Don't combine shipping, offer is only for 1st design), skip enig unless really required.You'll get 5 pcbs for 5€ shipped in your door. Attached just an example. Total cost 4.35€.

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2024, 11:59:37 am
content: When your ordering a PCB that's almost 1 meter long expect them to have to charge a bit more for the non-standard work required.I suspect you're seeing how each service person handles adding the extra fees required for an unusual/oversize pcb.

author: asmi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2024, 12:14:48 pm
content: I've been working with JLCPCB for years, and there has never been a case when they increased price of my order after review. Do you want to know the secret of success? Play by the rules, and don't be a smartass. We all should be thankful JLCPCB exist, as they give regular people access to technology which would otherwise be prohibitively expensive. Just ask any EU/US pcb fab how much would a small batch of five 10 layers pcb cost with VIPPO, controlled impedance and other bells and whistles. JLCPCB made them for me for just a bit over 200$.

author: oliv3r
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2024, 12:29:09 pm
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on October 19, 2024, 09:10:05 amSo I didnt need fast shipping so only payed 1.15 shipping and 0.75 taxesQuote from: 2N3055 on October 19, 2024, 09:10:05 amSo that's where things become annoying with JLC. If I do a single 5 board run, i can get china shipping for 1.15. But if I do 2 boards, I'll pay 25+ for shipping. I understand shipping is not there choice, but it's a bit odd. If I do seperate orders, I do get cheap shipping of course.Quote from: 2N3055 on October 19, 2024, 09:10:05 amNobody is questioning that, but having arbitrary rules 'just because' or 'because this allows for more revenue' feels annoying. Give me rules, I'll adhere.But think about it, why should my 10x10 board be priced differently then your 10x10 board? Just because my board has 8 designs on it? What if your board is more complex, more cuts, more holes etc. It just doesn't feel fair.Quote from: 2N3055 on October 19, 2024, 09:10:05 amOr, in the EU it's 50x way too expensive. I also think a) EU is more expensive because reasons, but also because b) the number of produced boards, factory efficiency etc is far inferior as to what they do in asia.Quote from: 2N3055 on October 19, 2024, 09:10:05 amHow is it a scam? Who suffers? Who is being scammed? I'm still getting a 10x10 panel.Quote from: 2N3055 on October 19, 2024, 09:10:05 amThat's true for many people in lifeQuote from: tooki on October 19, 2024, 11:01:16 amBut then they should price accordingly. If I do a 5x5 or 10x10 board completely filled, I pay X; but because the content of my board is several designs, this no longer applies?!They even state, that if you do proto's (yes I do; just a few at the same time), they do have some flexibility of the rules, e.g. make it one big continuous design (as I showed above). But there's some flexibility to these rules, as others have successfully put multi-board orders through.https://hackaday.com/2024/07/29/hacker-tactic-multi-design-panels/Quote from: 2N3055 on October 19, 2024, 11:23:23 amNo they don't. They care if you put more then 3000 holes on a PCB, or if routing takes a long time (efficiency loss). That's fair alrigh. But then make clear rules. Only have 2 continous edge-cuts with a total length of X. That I can work with. But having an arbitrary rules that target 'designs' is pointless.Quote from: 2N3055 on October 19, 2024, 11:23:23 amI hope you do not think that the boss that gets all these profits gives these extra profits to their staff? But again, nobody is enslaving them or asking to do extra work. But if you sell me 5x5 pcb space, don't tell me what I can or cannot put on it, unless it affects their turn-around time, and again, that's fair, but then make clear rules that can be followed.Quote from: 2N3055 on October 19, 2024, 11:23:23 amI already did above :pQuote from: 2N3055 on October 19, 2024, 11:23:23 amAlso already did :p as I'm always very polite and thankful when talking to the staff.Quote from: 2N3055 on October 19, 2024, 11:38:54 amI'm happy with rules, but make them clear and consistent. I don't want to have to argue what you consider a 'design'. What if I make a box where the PCB is also the housing. That's 6 PCB "designs" or is it just one?And again, charging 110 bux just because they consider something 'extra designs' is redicilous, because they won't change anything, just take your money. If I submit them as 8 boards, I get 5x more PCB's and only pay 18 ...Its unreasonable and shady, period.Quote from: 2N3055 on October 19, 2024, 11:38:54 amQuote from: 2N3055 on October 19, 2024, 11:41:44 amIt's not about complaining that they didn't do it; you seriously misunderstood. The complaint is about inconsistent unwritten rules. And don't say 'but different design', because that's a shitty rule that makes no sense. Because as per my example, putting 6 designs on a board without edge-cuts is FINE. So I am asking, not complaining what we CAN do to work WITH their rules, but still be board-space efficient.Not to mention, it's more efficient and less wasteful of resources to cram 6 designs into a board, isn't it? Environment, shipping, waste, etc.Quote from: 2N3055 on October 19, 2024, 11:38:54 amAnd that's fine, but at least _understand_ the other side properlyQuote from: asmi on October 19, 2024, 12:14:48 pmIt's not about being a smart ass, just being effective and efficient with.Its fine that there are rules, but they should be honest, reasonable and fair. I'm more then happy to apply to their rules. And putting 'filler' PCB's on there is just trying to avoid to be wasteful.And yes, as a hobbyist, who's not making money on this, we try to find the edge of what is allowed. If I where making professional boards, in the batches of 100's I wouldn't cram additional boards on there, but then we're talking something other then doing 5x5 and 10x10 proto's. JLCPCB is fully aware that this is exactly what hobbiests are doing anyway, doing proto's. Wasn't it called a protopack in the past?

author: mtwieg
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2024, 12:53:41 pm
content: JLCPCB is extraordinary in that they actually attempt to give some transparency to their pricing/quoting. Virtually no other fabhouse does this, at most they will put E-testing and/or NRE as a separate lines on the invoice, and that's it. If you don't like the quote, take your business elsewhere. A couple fab managers have told me that this is done because any attempt to give transparency to pricing results in ruthless exploitation by customers trying to min/max everything.I don't think there's any amount of transparency JLCPCB could offer that would satisfy people trying push through insane panels like this (I feel sorry for anyone trying to put that through assembly). Enjoy the limited transparency while you can, because if you can't live with it then they will probably take it away.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2024, 12:54:03 pm
content: Quote from: oliv3r on October 19, 2024, 12:29:09 pmIt's not that difficult to understand. That "10x10 cm² special price" deal only works for JLCPCB, cost-wise, if not everybody uses the maximum space. Which they can reasonably expect to happen, since many designs will require smaller boards. And it only works if people who needmultiplesmall designs will pay that special price multiple times, or pay the super-discounted $2 for the first design and more for the second and third.It's a typical hybrid costing (pricing) approach. JLCPCB have put rules in place to stop customers from playing the system, and they communicate those rules very clearly.

author: jduncan
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2024, 01:15:54 pm
content: Quote from: oliv3r on October 19, 2024, 12:29:09 pmWhat's "shady" is continuing to pretend you think the $2 price is anything more than an extremely generous special offer. They don't owe you "consistency" or anything more than to make your PCBs to the promised quality at the price mutually agreed to.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2024, 01:36:46 pm
content: Quote from: oliv3r on October 19, 2024, 12:29:09 pmJLCPCB’s rules are here:https://www.jlcpcb.com/help/article/different-design-in-your-pcb-filesTake it or leave it. Trying to get around these restrictionsisbeing a smartass, even if you think it isn’t. Don’t like abiding by them? Then order somewhere else. They don’t sneak these rules on you after the fact, they’re right there in the FAQs, which everyone should read.(I will grant you this: that page includes the sentence “One more thing, sometimes, even all your PCBs look the same, but if there is no any connection to make them into one panel, and it needs to be sent as single piece, it will be also considered as different designs.” and I have no fucking clue what this is supposed to mean. Something got lost in translation there, and probably wasn’t skillfully worded to begin with…)Quote from: oliv3r on October 19, 2024, 12:29:09 pmDude.That report is about howDirtyPCBsallows such panelizing. They expressly talk about how JLCPCB does not allow them at low cost.

author: oliv3r
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2024, 08:56:24 am
content: Quote from: mtwieg on October 19, 2024, 12:53:41 pmI think its important to make a distinction to prototyping vs production. For proto PC's, you may not always end up doing assembly, so we'd only be talking CNC stuff; which they probably do already for several square meter sized boards don't they? 5x5 and 10x10 are probably 'special' in their process anyway, as said, to fill up holes on the big panel.On their 'extra charges page' they speak of sizes of square meters, and 10.000 holes. For that, I totally get they want to be strict in their rules of course.Quote from: tooki on October 19, 2024, 01:36:46 pmI'm not trying to get 'around' it, but want do do things as efficiently as possible with proto's. Tell me what is and is not okay and I'm happy to follow. But throwing it on 'design' is what bothers me maybe? If I make those cut-off points longer next time, add a few holes so that it does break easily; would that then still be okay? Probably. And again, they do state, if you do want multiple designs on a board, make it 'one board'. So they don't actually care about the design stuff, it's just an 'easy rule'.Quote from: tooki on October 19, 2024, 01:36:46 pmStart reading here:https://hackaday.com/2024/07/29/hacker-tactic-multi-design-panels/#comment-6780775:p

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2024, 12:29:48 pm
content: Well those large slots and cutouts might tear during the process and it consumes a lot of expensive router bits.Perhaps time to build or buy your own cnc milling machine

author: jipihorn
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2024, 05:11:56 pm
content: Fourth board, exactly the again same design, with less holes :ENIG is not available for boards larger than 600mm.This is written nowhere, and was not a problem for the first three previous attempts...Jerome

author: jduncan
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2024, 09:37:16 pm
content: Quote>600mm is NOT common. I highly encourage you to quote this board at a domestic manufacturer and experience the difference in process and cost structure...

author: langwadt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2024, 10:24:52 pm
content: Quote from: jduncan on October 20, 2024, 09:37:16 pmyeh, I think the biggest standard panel is slightly bigger than 500x600mm

author: jipihorn
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2024, 05:44:01 am
content: Hello,You don't understand. It is not a problem of money amount - I could pay twice the price, it won't matter at all.It is a problem of coherency. Same design, four different fees and at the end, they couldn't do it for reasons that are not listed in their capabilities.Two layers boards can go up to 1020mm which is much more than 600, I'm not that close to the limits.My worry is that HASL is not flat and replacing ENIG will potentially create contact problems.Jerome.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2024, 08:22:47 am
content: Quote from: oliv3r on October 20, 2024, 08:56:24 amSo… like… you want them to make a page that tells you what to do and what not to do.Like they have.Quote from: oliv3r on October 20, 2024, 08:56:24 amComments are not normally considered a part of an article. If you want us to look at comments, then you needed to link to the comments (or at least say “look at the comments on…”) to begin with.

author: jduncan
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2024, 09:59:38 am
content: Quote from: jipihorn on October 21, 2024, 05:44:01 amHave you heard of "fuck-off pricing"?

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2024, 09:20:13 pm
content: Quote from: jduncan on October 21, 2024, 09:59:38 am$30 is not f-off pricing lol, unless that was per board.OP: looks like you need to find another supplier and verify with them up front that they can handle such long boards. Or it might make sense to split it into two boards at some point.

author: jipihorn
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2024, 01:35:34 pm
content: Hello,After giving up ENIG, reducing the number of holes, the PCB went in production.And, suddenly, a new mail :"We can not do 2Oz copper on board larger than 600mm..."Where is the camera ?Jerome.

author: Smokey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2024, 04:51:44 am
content: This must be the "extra extra extra large board fee"....At least the "engineering fee" is still only $8

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2024, 05:50:47 am
content: Quote from: jipihorn on October 23, 2024, 01:35:34 pmWhile I can certainly relate to your frustration, I think it's time to realize that JLCPCB's strength isstandardstuff. They do that very cost-effectively, in a streamlined, highly automated workflow. Orders which push the limits (theirlimits) are probably better placed elsewhere.

author: jipihorn
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2024, 06:16:39 am
content: There is a page fully dedicated to their capabilities.There is nothing about these limitations, only that they can do up to 1020mmm on two layers boards with nothing else as limitations. So, I'm not supposed to know that there are such limitations or if my design is "non standard". It is, according to their capabilities.I'm fed up to read that, finally, it's my fault, I should have known better. I read the capabilities and I design accordingly. Where am I wrong here ?As I said, i have no problem to pay fee for non standard stuff. But here, it seems that they discover the next day they can not do that.Jerome.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2024, 07:20:04 am
content: Quote from: jipihorn on October 24, 2024, 06:16:39 amI did not mean to blame you, sorry if it came across like that. On the other hand, you ran into problems and received different "out of bounds" messages from them three times in a row. You might have concluded that your requirementsareoutside of their capabilities, even if the website does not indicate that. Trying a fourth time was brave, but maybe it was not too surprising that it did not go smoothly?

author: jduncan
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2024, 10:39:31 am
content: You should also realize that pushing the boundaries of capabilities on multiple dimensions simultaneously is asking for trouble.The normal max dimensions is 670x600. They state that "2-layer FR4 PCBs can reach a maximum size of 1020 × 600 mm.", but that means running a different non-standard panel.When you ask for 2oz copper, again that's not a standard. They may not have 2oz 1020mm panels available, or they may simply be unwilling to dedicate one to your job since nobody else is ordering this combo.This is probably a situation that occurs so rarely they haven't coded a check yet in their software or added it to their agent training. But when your job makes it to the factory, the workers there say "hell no" and kick it back.The exact same thing can happen anywhere else, but at a traditional fab you're paying extra for engineers to take a detailed look at your design up front.

author: asmi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2024, 03:03:53 pm
content: I would guess they follow the 80/20 rule - optimize your workflow for 80% of cases so that they go at max speed and with least amount of overhead, as for the rest 20% - create a custom process (which would cost extra $$) to accommodate some of those 20%, and tell to the rest "sorry cant do that, please change something in your order and try again". This runs contrary to how folks in the west are used to deal - here company is expected to accommodate client's unique needs - sometimes even to the company's detriment, while in case of JLCPCB it's the client that is expected to build his process around how fab works. Which is what I - and a suspect a lot of longtime JLCPCB clients - do - we designed our processes around their capabilities and limitations, so all our orders always go smoothly. But more importantly, if we absolutely need to deviate from this process for some reason, we know in advance that there is high probability that we will need to order PCBs somewhere else - and that's OK.

author: Smokey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2024, 04:45:24 pm
content: I just got dinged with an extra $15 fee for a large size board. My hole density is really low (16holes/in^2) but the board is sort of huge so there are a large total number of holes. This is what they said:https://jlcpcb.com/help/article/in-what-cases-will-there-be-charged-extraQuote

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2024, 09:18:07 pm
content: Quote from: jduncan on October 24, 2024, 10:39:31 amThey usually plate up to 2oz from 1oz panel, not etch down from 2oz. But your point still stands:they might not have the stock material in that size, or the plating bath and ENIG bath can't fit the larger boards, or won't give a consistent result.If it came up enough or enough people complained I'm sure they'd add it to the calculator.Previous thread:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/manufacture/no-2oz-copper-with-jpcpcb-assembly-any-alternatives/