Possible to trigger at battery explosions in pagers ? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Bloch
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 17, 2024, 04:01:21 pm
content: It wild all the pagers that exploded at the same time in LebanonDo you think it possible to trigger at battery explosions in the pagers.Or was they made with that option ?

author: daqq
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2024, 04:44:33 pm
content: Either they were incredibly poorly designed, or well designed in a certain very specific way, or severely modified with some additional "features".The consumer stuff we design has to be designed in such a way that no matter what you do to the software, you are physically unable to mess up the battery to such a degree.

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2024, 04:48:02 pm
content: Context:Dozens wounded after pagers detonate in Lebanon, security officials say (https://www.thetelegraphandargus.co.uk/news/national/24590999.dozens-wounded-pagers-detonate-lebanon-security-officials-say/)Presumably they (Hezbollah members) got the Mossad edition with an extra bang for the buck.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2024, 04:51:42 pm
content: I suspect someone intercepted a delivery or broke into the room keeping the pagers on charge overnight and swapped them for new units with a bit of added C4.There is no way to make an ordinary consumer pager explode without an external source. I suppose you could get a Li-Po battery to get firey, but that is only likely to happen if the battery is charged with an external source beyond safe limits, not really possible to do that when contained within the pager itself.

author: electronx
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2024, 04:57:08 pm
content: It is definitely possible(start a fire).However, you will not see a rapid explosion in lipo batteries. These are mostly gases such as lithium fluoride (LiF), carbon dioxide (CO2), and potentially toxic gases like hydrogen fluoride (HF). Generally, when batteries are produced, they are intended to be designed to release gas to the outside.These cannot explode directly. At first, you will see a gas that glows with fire. Considering that it is in a plastic part, there will most likely be no explosion. This may be possible in devices containing metal enclosure (if the gas is sufficiently compressed). if the enclosures are not designed to withstand pressurized water like flight recorders(These usually contain gasket type adhesives to prevent leakage.) (if it is a portable device outdoors), they will allow significant amounts of gas to escape.Most user-friendly devices protect themselves from overheating.However, the explosion in the videos looks very violent. I think a trace amount of explosives was placed inside the devices.5-10 psi with a 3 gram explosive is more than enough to kill someone. (10-15 grams fits easily into this device.)(This can certainly fit into small enclosures.)The lethal effect will be directly proportional to the area of ​​the body where the shrapnel hits.(groin and neck area.) For such a device carried in a pocket, when all explosions are considered, it can cause deaths of approximately 5% to 10%.The evil thought here is the call message. As far as I can see in the video, there is a call message before the explosion and the aim here is to remove the device from the pocket. Thus, the effect percentage will increase.They could have been placed there to be destroyed remotely if the pagers fall into enemy hands or if the device is lost. (What would happen if it fell into the hands of children in terms of ethics) (ah ı forget ,war has no ethics)If not, all that's left is the supplier network (modified pagers )(High probability)

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2024, 04:57:24 pm
content: I've read the news as well and saw a video. My theory is that the pagers (which presumably used end-to-end encryption) are equiped with an explosive self-destruct mechanism to protect the encryption keys. I guess this somehow got hacked and they all got set to self-destruct. From the video it looks like a small explosive detonates. I don't see how this would be possible with batteries.Kinda reminds me of the man who had put a shotgun booby-trap in his toilet. That went well until he had a spicy Chinese meal and felt so much urge that he forgot to disarm...

author: DimitriP
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2024, 05:04:36 pm
content: This doesn't sound like a good subject for public discussion.The ones that have/know/can come up with answers probably can't talk about it or should not , and the ones that don't know the answers, well, let their unsatisfied curiosity be sacrificed instead of "other "smart people" getting ideas.My two cents;and if this thread got locked(hint-hint),it wouldn't hurt my feelings at all whatsoever.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2024, 05:45:15 pm
content: To any potential fuckwits coming up with all sorts of hypothetical bullshit, these were Apollo Gold AL-A25 which take 1x AA battery with about as much energy in it as a cat's fart. And they blew holes clean through tables.These things clearly were modified with high explosive. There, thread finished.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2024, 05:46:00 pm
content: Why would not you discuss this? If the pagers were modified from their stock version, then there is really nothing to talk about apart from the possible supply chain issues.If they were not modified and there is some way to blow up the consumer devices remotely, then public needs to know and the issue should be addressed. But realistic chances of that are 0.

author: globoy
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2024, 06:18:47 pm
content: It's not like this is the first time this has been done. In 1995 Mossad arranged for a rigged cell phone to be delivered to Hamas' chief bomb maker and remotely detonated it to kill him.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yahya_AyyashA reuters article claims the pagers used in this recent attack were Taiwanese.https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/what-we-know-so-far-about-deadly-pager-blasts-lebanon-2024-09-17/There are videos and in the one I saw it definitely sounds like a small explosion (a loud pop).

author: Sal Ammoniac
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2024, 06:55:01 pm
content: Quote from: DimitriP on September 17, 2024, 05:04:36 pmWhy? "Security by obscurity" doesn't work. Never has.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2024, 07:51:09 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on September 17, 2024, 04:57:24 pmWhy would you go the the trouble of doing that when keys can easily be erased electronically? If you can trigger an explosive charge, you can fry a chip way more easily.

author: helius
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2024, 08:15:53 pm
content: The IFF (Identification, Friend or Foe) transponders used by the US Air Force and Navy were designed with self-destruct mechanisms to keep the coding secret. A number of thermite plugs installed in the unit were electrically triggered (manually, or by a crash sensor) and the heat generated would melt the coder into an undifferentiated mass of metal and glass. It should not need to be explained why you don't use high explosives to secure an electronic element.That was 1950s technology; in the 1990s, tamper-resistant devices like the Mykotronix "Fortezza" were just special IC packages. If the gate implementation itself is the protected secret, this will be a means to destroy some part of the silicon. If all you care about is a secret key, you don't need to destroy anything, just erase the key (or stop a feedback chain that continually regenerates it, etc).

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2024, 08:17:34 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on September 17, 2024, 07:51:09 pmProbably because the person who decided / designed the self destruct method is an idiot? Frying a chip is easier indeed and there are other less violent substances which can render a chip useless compared to blowing the entire circuit to bits.If some agency had access to the pagers, it would have made much more sense to include a GPS tracker compared to adding a bomb. With a GPS tracker the agency would have been able to secretly track enemy movements gaining intel on locations, cell members, weapon stashes, etc. IMHO that would gain a far greater tactical advantage compared to setting off a one-time event the enemy can recover from quickly.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2024, 08:25:54 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on September 17, 2024, 08:17:34 pmI doubt you could do useful GPS tracking, let alone reporting, on the power budget of a pager

author: ajb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2024, 09:06:03 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on September 17, 2024, 08:17:34 pmOn the other hand, demonstrating that you can intercept an adversary's supply chain to covertly weaponize otherwise entirely innocuous mass-market goods, to then individually fuck up said adversary's personnel at a time of your choosing sends a pretty powerful message. It's possible that intelligence was a secondary objective to that messaging, or vice versa, and they figured they already had enough of that before triggering the explosions -- or it's possible they're allowing the explosions themselves are sufficient to expose the targeted personnel. Or even further into tinfoil hat territory, they may claim that the explosions tie people to the organization as cover for havingalreadyidentified those individuals through other means they would prefer to keep secret.

author: MT
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2024, 09:23:13 pm
content: I most videos one can hear the instant pop and the typical smoke that comes from a tiny explosive. The current story on the web goes that Hezzbolla some month ago ordered a batch of batteries which was intercepted by israeli intel who modified the battery to include C3-C4 explosives called quiscal 3 , kiskal 3, newer heard about that one before, and a tiny receiver chip that activated the explosion.Military explosive experts say as tiny as 10 to 20 grams of modern high explosives is enough and conforms to what seen on videos.

author: Shay
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2024, 10:00:51 pm
content: It is not the battery, in my opinion.I assume that the Mossad knew Hizbollah was ordering a batch of pagers from somewhere, intercepted the order, and placed some RDX or a similar explosive inside. They likely modified the pagers so that, once they received the correct signal via RF, a small resistor would heat up, burn, and trigger the explosion. Then, they sent the pagers to Hizbollah, who assumed it was just their typical order and began distributing them locally.Another possibility is that Hizbollah bought special pagers equipped with a self-destruct feature, in case they fell into enemy hands.

author: Andy Chee
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2024, 11:13:23 pm
content: Assuming that the videos circulating are real, can we agree that a factory stock unmodified pager simply does not have sufficient energy to cause the damage observed?

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2024, 11:16:13 pm
content: this was in one of the early seasons of 24. in that plot line, they got a vice president or something with a phone dripping with a suspicious explosive liquidit says its activated by a specific text. "simon says...."its not a regular phone, the MOSSAD has been developing phone bombs for like... 60 years now, officially

author: Andy Chee
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2024, 11:33:15 pm
content: Also in the Gerard Butler & Jamie Foxx movie "Law Abiding Citizen", a cell phone explodes next to a judge's head as she receives an incoming call.Also in the video game "Grand Theft Auto V", a cell phone explodes in a similar manner killing the social media company CEO.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2024, 11:34:33 pm
content: https://www.ft.com/content/dbaac693-2fd2-41bc-b5e7-6c2c7dd92277

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2024, 11:37:35 pm
content: Quote from: coppercone2 on September 17, 2024, 11:34:33 pmUnfortunately this article is behind a paywall.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2024, 11:39:37 pm
content: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yahya_Ayyashhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Israeli_assassinationsI think they pretty much perfected it at this point

author: Andy Chee
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2024, 11:42:59 pm
content: https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/9/17/dozens-of-hezbollah-members-wounded-after-pagers-explode-in-lebanonhttps://www.timesofisrael.com/several-killed-thousands-hurt-as-wave-of-pager-explosions-strikes-hezbollah/

author: globoy
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2024, 11:43:28 pm
content: The NYT (also probably paywalled) is reporting they were Gold Apollo AP924 (among other) pagers and Israel added explosives and a trigger next to the battery.https://www.nytimes.com/2024/09/17/world/middleeast/israel-hezbollah-pagers-explosives.htmlFor me anyway, the Gold Apollo website is unresponsive but I think it looks something like the following image.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2024, 11:56:10 pm
content: I think its safe to say that you can't pin this one on a lithium ion battery, so there is no need to throw away you iphones

author: shabaz
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2024, 12:14:54 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on September 17, 2024, 11:37:35 pmWhat usually works for FT, is to google the article title with 'ft twitter' appended to it, then click on the twitter/X result, and then it opens that FT page article without their paywall.For instance, googling for that article, leads to this twitter URL:https://twitter.com/ftworldnews/status/1836109408788517296and by clicking on the link in there, will open the article (at least it does for me).

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2024, 01:43:24 am
content: So what does the Taiwanese manufacturer say?

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2024, 01:51:47 am
content: Quote from: Bud on September 18, 2024, 01:43:24 amthere was a small defect in one of the subassembliesrealistically they have nothing to do with it. I doubt they just sold it to that group. It probobly went through a complex resale chain. They have nothing to do with it. I have a feeling everything that ends up there is super laundered.

author: MT
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2024, 02:54:49 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on September 17, 2024, 11:37:35 pmand its full of garbage narratives.

author: Andy Chee
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2024, 03:18:57 am
content: Quote from: Bud on September 18, 2024, 01:43:24 amhttps://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/gold-apollo-says-it-did-not-make-pagers-used-lebanon-explosion-2024-09-18/Quote

author: Geoff-AU
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2024, 03:18:59 am
content: Quote from: coppercone2 on September 17, 2024, 11:56:10 pmI think if anyone suspects it could be caused by a lithium ion battery, that throwing away their phone is encouraged. It might improve the signal to noise ratio for the rest of us.

author: Andy Chee
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2024, 03:27:41 am
content: One might assume that this supply chain attack was performed somewhere towards the end of the chain, near the end users Hezbollah.However if the attack was performed earlier in the supply chain, then conceivably there could be other explosive laden pagers circulating out in the wild, yet to be triggered because they were not within broadcast range.It seems prudent that the manufacturer issue a recall notice for their pagers, at least until Israel/Mossad admits liability, and informs the manufacturer at which point in the supply chain was penetrated.

author: bobxyz
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2024, 04:13:07 am
content: If I were going to do this, I'd intercept the wire(s) going to the display and add a micro that would detect a specific pager message and trigger an explosive. The original battery could be replaced with half battery and half explosive + detonator + micro. It wouldn't be selective, but if the original pagers were diverted, they could figure out the end phone numbers based on the pager IDs.

author: Andy Chee
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2024, 04:33:44 am
content: Quote from: coppercone2 on September 17, 2024, 11:56:10 pmThere has yet to be confirmation of explosive residue on the pager debris, so can't completely eliminate an intentional lithium battery explosion yet.Can lithium battery casing be manufactured without safety venting?

author: @rt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2024, 04:39:46 am
content: Quote from: coppercone2 on September 17, 2024, 11:16:13 pmOne of those 50 cent microcontrollers with an accurate enough oscillator (borrowed from the existing clock on the PCB) could decode a message itself, and pull an IO pin high, which could perhaps use a transistor and the battery to provide a charge for something. I don't know what sort of voltage/current it takes to do something like that.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2024, 04:52:45 am
content: Quote from: Andy Chee on September 18, 2024, 04:33:44 amBatteries still don't explode with a lot of energy, they very quickly release the pressure and the most damage is caused by the fire.Battery by itself may "explode" and cause some lacerations if held directly, but the device case would contain that well.

author: jonpaul
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2024, 05:21:30 am
content: Atarov: Li batts are small firebombs and DO explode.The events yesterday most likely used a small explosive charge and not relying on a possible Li battery fire.j

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2024, 05:24:25 am
content: Quote from: jonpaul on September 18, 2024, 05:21:30 amDo you have any video evidence of an actual explosion and not just venting and catching fire?

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2024, 05:30:14 am
content: their more like setting off a rocket engine of similar size with quite a big thrust

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 18, 2024, 07:00:24 am
content: Those explosions weren't caused (at least initially) by a Lithium battery. There was some kind of high explosive that either kicked off the reaction, or made up almost all of the resulting explosion. This was a quick and controlled explosion. There was little to no prior warning.

author: Haenk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2024, 09:46:13 am
content: In german news, there was a pretty detailed report on operations.The pager in question (AR-924) were manufactured in Hungary (by company BAC) under the brand of a Taiwanese Company (Gold Apollo). They contained approximate 25-50grams of explosives.It seems Israeli agents were able to intercept delivery from factory to Hizbollah and modify the pagers. This - of course - has not been officially confirmed.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2024, 10:14:51 am
content: Quote from: Haenk on September 18, 2024, 09:46:13 amA serious question is why is a factory in Europe manufacturing pagers for a proscribed terrorist organisation?I suppose it could be a case of not knowing, but clearly the Israelis were aware.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2024, 10:44:15 am
content: Quote from: tom66 on September 18, 2024, 10:14:51 amThere are much more pressing things to worry about:- The legality of such kind of 'warfare'. IMHO this is plain terrorism performed by the Isrealis; I highly doubt this is covered by any form of rules of engagement. It is likely going to backfire on them from all sides- How many pagers are out there which didn't explode and how can these be tracked so they don't become death traps like abandoned landmines?- How quickly will others use a similar idea for a similar terrorist attack?

author: SteveThackery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2024, 10:49:16 am
content: Quote from: ataradov on September 18, 2024, 05:24:25 amYes, I watched a video on the BBC news this morning taken from a shop security camera. The explosion is real, it is not a venting of gas and flames. I'm no expert, but no way could it have been from an AA battery - it was explosives.

author: Haenk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2024, 10:57:12 am
content: Quote from: tom66 on September 18, 2024, 10:14:51 amWell, the whole story is cloudy, the hungarian "manufacturer" is stating it is only a "Consulting company". It does not look like they are manufacturing anything at all.https://24.hu/kulfold/2024/09/18/libanon-hezbollah-izrael-csipogo-szemelyi-hivo-robbanas-budapest-bac-consulting/However that hungarian company is rather sketchy...Another detail emerging is the order had been placed last year and the pagers were delivered early this year, so it seems it has been a well planned operation and the timeframe was not as small as I expected.

author: linux-works
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2024, 11:59:16 am
content: I still think that replacing just the batteries with some battery and mostly explosive - and then a power rail watcher that looks for a signature power draw to trigger it was what they did.it was funny that initial reports blamed the batteries and a pure software bug. in 10 seconds of thought, that would not make sense at all, yet it was being said many times for the first few hours of the report.I have to say this was genius.(and yes, it was well deserved and I'm happy it happened. but that's all I'll say on that)

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2024, 12:16:04 pm
content: Quote from: linux-works on September 18, 2024, 11:59:16 amAgree that battery is a good place to put the explosive, and would make modification quick & easy.Except batteries get replaced ( though,not very often), and it's hard to get a specific trigger signal to them.There is a mention of them beeping several times first, so maybe they can do different beep/vibrate patterns in response to transmitted data, which the "battery" could recognise by pattern of current draw.Maybe they had hacked firmware to do a specific current draw pattern on receipt of a particular message.

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2024, 12:17:31 pm
content: Quote from: linux-works on September 18, 2024, 11:59:16 amYeah, this. People assume that batteries just explode, have always been. It's some kind of... batterophobia. I definitely remember this from days before li-ion, like some people were scared of just normal alkaline cells.In reality of course batteries do not explode, explosives do. Li-ion batteries sometimes burn quite violently but it's still pretty much different from explosion,even inlayman language, even more so with technically correct meaning for "explosion".Triggering li-ion cell failure is also more difficult than people expect. It is almost always impossible to do by just software. It is often difficult to do even with botched BMS design. Cell manufacturing quality control issues and physical damage are the most usual reasons for battery fire. Faulty BMS can increase the odds but it is a totally different thing to have one in hundred fail over years of use (which would be a huge problem for manufacturer) vs. intentionally having 100% success rate in commanding them to explode within some minutes of command.

author: linux-works
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2024, 12:24:51 pm
content: I had a 9volt ('transistor radio') battery blow up while sitting on my night table, once. if I can find the photo I took of it, I'll post, but I heard it pop from the other room (so lucky I was not there in that room) and the part that was blown off was an electrode looking a LOT like a nail!low current 9v battery. not liion or anything. just SITTING there. I cant remember what the situation was. I must have used it 'hard' but I dont know what that could have been. they have a large-ish internal R so you cant use them 'hard'. and yet, that thing literally blew and popped so loud I could hear it from 2 or 3 rooms away.only once in my life did I ever see or have that happen. so its clearly not frequent but its non-zero, also.edit: found the photo. that nail thing and the top were on the floor and it took me a while to find them. the gold battery thing was still sitting on my night table, pointing up, iirc. this was 2008 (as per the date on the photo)

author: linux-works
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2024, 01:42:11 pm
content: in terms of a modification of the units while they were en-route, the more I think about it, the more I now believe that a whole batch of units were 'manufactured' with the explosive and circuit already in it and when a shipment was to be made, a whole swap was made.you cant just 'mod' 3000+ units on the fly. that cant be done in scale even with state resources.so you prepare identical ones that have your stuff in it and swap palettes at some ship point.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2024, 02:19:57 pm
content: I like Mike's suggestion.Create a contact in the device and set up a specific 'ring tone' - I assume the device has some way to associate different tones with different contacts or message priorities. Perhaps name the contact something like " " (ASCII space character) so it is not visible in the normal system menus unless you are paying attention.Then build some kind of device attached to either the piezo or within the battery that recognises this current pattern.Clever, nearly impossible to detect, and easy to trigger all the devices at once, and it would require limited modification.As for it being a war crime, yeah, probably because civilians are directly impacted by this. So perhaps we should not be that impressed. Still, pontificating on here will change anything about the conflicts in the middle east. I'm reminded of the Onion's article from the future - "year 2200, the last remaining Israeli and the last remaining Palestinian are fighting to the death over one square kilometer in the nuclear wasteland that remains."

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2024, 02:43:19 pm
content: Quote from: linux-works on September 18, 2024, 01:42:11 pmUnless all you need to do is swap the battery & update firmware, but yeah, with state resources, buying a duplicate batch isn't a big deal, though leaves some risk of traceability.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2024, 02:47:55 pm
content: There are now reports that walkie-talkies have been exploding too - so whatever the IDF/Mossad have done is quite wide ranging. Major supply chain attack, what else will they not be able to trust?

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2024, 03:56:49 pm
content: It would be so interesting to get the hands on some unexploded samples.It is also worth noting that this is essentially one time attack. Once it is used, the cover is blown. The decision to activate it must not be an easy one.

author: MT
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2024, 04:13:53 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on September 18, 2024, 10:14:51 amits now said it was Israeli military front company, they have traced very strange and high money transfers to and from the Hungarian company (follow the money).

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2024, 04:15:09 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on September 18, 2024, 02:19:57 pmProbably. And once they are done, there will be other people wanting to fight for that piece of land as has been the case for the last 5000 years.

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2024, 04:50:58 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on September 18, 2024, 02:47:55 pmFirst reports claim that the walkie-talkies were bought around the same time as the new pagers (five months ago).

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2024, 04:53:43 pm
content: Quote from: ataradov on September 18, 2024, 03:56:49 pmYou rather than me. You know they are meant to blow up in your face? Better stay safe & clear unless you are an explosives expert with 10 complete fingers.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 18, 2024, 04:56:02 pm
content: Oh well, I guess the next time we sign up for a download of a micro controller IDE we will find a declaration to fill out about dual use that include pagers

author: Karel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2024, 05:26:27 pm
content: "Our hands-free pagers give you more bang for your buck."

author: linux-works
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2024, 05:29:08 pm
content: it could be that they were on to the trick and so the trick had limited lifetime.that's actually plausible.

author: linux-works
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2024, 05:31:19 pm
content: how deep does this rabbit hole go?ping address?wake on lan?date trigger?anything electronic can probably hide custom 'chips' that do the dirtywork.a few years ago, supermicro was suspected of creating a spy smd chip that looks like something innocent.could it be that some state has developed explosives that sit in 14 pin dips (etc etc) and since they have access to the power rail..... kaboom!

author: linux-works
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2024, 05:33:09 pm
content: and if you do use stock electronics and just insert your own firmware, you'd have to make it impervious to future firmware 'updates'.just take the update, say 'thanks, user' and then dont apply it. but store the version string.a lot of effort. but again, state resources. and who knows how long it was in devel and planning.

author: reboots
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2024, 05:45:33 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on September 18, 2024, 12:16:04 pmThis would be an ingenious way of doing things. The vibrating motor would have a distinctive and relatively high current draw. But would these pagers have been shipped with the modified battery installed? Was it simply provided in the packaging, with the expectation that the user would install it? And what's the lifetime of a cut-down AAA cell in this application? Certainly not indefinite. I remember Motorola pagers would work for a long time on a single AAA, but five months seems like a gamble. Perhaps Israel was already under time pressure to use it or lose it.

author: Bryn
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2024, 05:47:49 pm
content: Honestly, the subject of exploding pagers sounds like a concept straight from a cheesy spy movie...I also can't figure out how someone would be able to turn them all into bombs but with the latest technology, anything's possible...My condolences to those that lost their lives to this incident, however

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2024, 06:03:28 pm
content: Another interesting thing is the large number of simultaneous activations - is the pager network even capable of broadcast/multicast?AIUI the way these usually do power management is they synchronise with a fairly slow timebase from the infrastructure, so they know when to wake up to check for transmissions - maybe once per minute or so. I don't know if this is typically synced over the whole network, but seems likely to avoid pagers having to track changes of local base-station. Pagers are usually receive-only, so all messages are broadcast to all locations.I wonder if there maybe was also a compromise of the infrastructure to send a broadcast message, or possibly even a fake radio transmission spoofing the actual network - is there any report of how wide the affected area was ?

author: linux-works
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2024, 06:12:21 pm
content: text cant be slow to send, even if its direct and not multicast.btw, since the pagers were 'messed with' there's no saying that it didn't have gps and a transmitter (lora?) inside, too.thus, giving away a lot more.maybe a mic, too.when you control the supply chain, you win, it seems!

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2024, 06:42:44 pm
content: Update on the walkie-talkies: Explosions linked to walkie-talkies kill at least 14 in fresh Lebanon attack (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/sep/18/explosions-linked-to-walkie-talkies-deaths-lebanon)Supposedly the handhelds are ICOM IC-V82 (2m band). However, the IC-V82 is out of production for 15 years (https://rigpix.com/icom/icv82.htm).Update: ICOM says that production ended in October 2014.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 18, 2024, 06:54:23 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on September 18, 2024, 06:03:28 pmHang on, where they simultaneous? I keep hawing this problem at work, we are a mechanical company and when they use words like instantaneous they are talking seconds, I think imperceptible to human perception. Same words mean different things to different people.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2024, 07:01:14 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on September 18, 2024, 06:03:28 pmRealistically even if it was bulk SMS (or whatever equivalent is used) to all the pagers, the messages would arrive within around a minute of each other - the only exception might be for devices out of range of signal. With the commotion in an attack like this, I doubt you need true synchronicity, a few minutes is fine, no one will put the puzzle pieces together until later.An attack like this is worth more than the injuries and deaths caused to their enemy (and of course the collateral damage) - they've made it so the enemy can't trust their supply chain. It'll disrupt their equipment availability for months. Everything will be suspect, every laptop, drone, phone, pager etc. will need to be disassembled to check for tampering.

author: linux-works
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2024, 07:11:04 pm
content: remember the old screen saver about flying toasters?well, dont plug in your toaster, either.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2024, 07:16:22 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on September 18, 2024, 06:54:23 pmMy point was not so much about how simultaneous, just the ability to send messages to thousands of pagers. Is this something that pager networks can typically do at all without inside access? AIUI all messages are sent to all devices, so I'd think it would need some kind of broadcast capability to do this without overloading the network, or maybe some kind of out-of-band signal perhaps.Or maybe they were just set to go off at a specific time & date, using the network as a source of long-term timekeeping

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2024, 07:28:03 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on September 18, 2024, 07:16:22 pmAs pagers are typically used to alert groups of people (like fire people), I would guess there is a way to send a broadcasted alert to many pagers. In the Netherlands the fire brigade is using the same make & model of the exploding pagers BTW.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2024, 07:46:02 pm
content: Just saw some specs on the device used - battery is rechargeable so a lot easier to conceal something inside, as the battery wouldn't normally be accessed, and the unit probably not readily openable.

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2024, 08:51:46 pm
content: The exploding (now confirmed) walkie talkies implies some completely separate - ok, maybe using the same frequency band, or maybe the pager network again(?) receiver and trigger system. I wonder if any of the international agencies detected a high power transmission on what would normally be a band used by short range devices.

author: electronx
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2024, 08:52:58 pm
content: The interesting part is that the company can produce its own asic chips or just change the markings with laser. You may be able to access the device in devices that use the stm 32 series fake mcu. But how can you break the special asic? Did they put their own mini pcbs inside?

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2024, 09:26:48 pm
content: Wait, they're afraid that their cell phone transmissions will be intercepted, but they replace something that could use end to end encryption over the internet with... a pager that broadcasts in clear text (POCSAG has no encryption) at 2400 bps on a normal VHF frequency??I mean, sure, they could be using some kind of codebook or basic cipher, but why would they not do the same on a cell network?It also only supports 7-bit ASCII, which could be a challenge for a mostly-Arabic speaking country, although I suppose they are probably using Romanisation (not sure how widely it is understood there.) Or they could just use English.

author: Andy Chee
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2024, 10:03:21 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on September 18, 2024, 09:26:48 pmI think it's more that modern cell phones contain GPS..... terrorists don't exactly want to carry a tracking device on their person.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2024, 10:08:41 pm
content: Quote from: Andy Chee on September 18, 2024, 10:03:21 pmThey could surely buy enough Nokia 3310's if that was a concern. Or a custom ROM on an Android phone to remove the GPS function altogether (probably want to kill WLAN too as that can be used for location finding).Pagers seem like an odd decision. But I guess I wouldn't expect terrorists to have the most logical thinking patterns.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2024, 10:28:44 pm
content: Quote from: Andy Chee on September 18, 2024, 10:03:21 pmGPS isn't the problem but modern day LTE cells are small so you can trace a phone to a couple of hundred meters while it moves from cell to cell. And don't be surprised encryption can be broken by state funded agencies.

author: Andy Chee
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2024, 10:36:06 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on September 18, 2024, 10:08:41 pmRegardless of device we now know that Israeli intelligence is quite adept at intercepting Hezbollah's supply chain logistics.Therefore any bulk purchase and distribution of Nokia 3310, custom Android ROM, or pagers, by Hezbollah will likely be compromised.The question is why did Hezbollah consolidate their supply of pagers to a single source? Just like the semiconductor shortage for car manufacturers, it's generally a silly idea to put all your eggs in one basket.Part of the answer is that within the counter-intelligence operations, Israel may have triggered a kneejerk reaction for Hezbollah to urgently switch their communications methods to pagers, thus opening a window for Israel. But this latter point is speculation beyond the scope of this thread.The general point is that single sourcing is generally a bad idea.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 18, 2024, 11:37:14 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on September 17, 2024, 04:51:42 pmYep, man-in-the-middle hack.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2024, 12:34:58 am
content: Something in this doesn't add up. Sure you can track cell phones. But knowing which phone to track when almost every man, woman and child has one is a much deeper problem. Same principal applies to pagers, and now walkie talkies based on the latest news.The implication is that the actor here has very deep intelligence in the Hesbollah network, and using this attack vector is at least partly being done to hide how that intelligence is being gathered. Doesn't matter if it is Israel, the US (the obvious candidates) or Iran (who may feel that stirring up trouble is worth whatever damage happens to an ally, especially when there is someone obvious to blame it on) or some other party. Several possibilities exist.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2024, 02:56:47 am
content: Ringway Manchester mentions how the pagers were sourced:

author: Andy Chee
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2024, 03:29:46 am
content: Quote from: CatalinaWOW on September 19, 2024, 12:34:58 amSome background context might be needed.In July, a couple Hezbollah leaders were assassinated. The news headliner was that one killed in Iran by rocket landing in his bedroom, but days before, a leader in Lebanon was also killed in the same manner.In both cases, the fear from the leadership hierarchy was that cell phones providing tracking information, hence the general notice to all Hezbollah members ditch cell phones and switch to pagers.This mass equipment transition was ripe for a supply chain attack. But can such a supply chain attack be mobilised within 4-5 weeks? Perhaps it was only possible due to the obscure use of outdated pagers.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 19, 2024, 04:49:12 am
content: Quote from: David Hess on September 19, 2024, 02:56:47 amThe image at 5:45 of an ICOM handheld radio ripped apart indicates an explosion. You don't get that sort of damage from an overheated lithium battery.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 19, 2024, 04:56:36 am
content: Quote from: Andy Chee on September 19, 2024, 03:29:46 amIt can be if you had eariler planned to force them into that situation.Seems to me that the most likely scenario is mass manufacture of batteries for various products (e.g. that ICOM radio above) with a hidden explosive inside instead of one of the cells, and a timer. You already have the battery for the timer and detonator.No need to modify any product or hack it in harwdare or software, just a simple man-in-the-middle supply chain swap that could be performed at a rate of hundreds of units per hour. And they would pass cursorary teardown and xray inspections.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 19, 2024, 05:01:05 am
content: The Apollo AL924 pager uses a single AAA cell. So it's impressive if they got an explosive inside that and still had room for a cell to keep it operational.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 19, 2024, 06:13:05 am
content: UN explosive calculator:https://unsaferguard.org/un-saferguard/blast-damage-estimation10g of the reported PETN is fatal at 0.5m

author: electronx
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2024, 07:40:37 am
content: We are talking about an effect in an area of ​​80 km diameter, definitely no local pager transmitter was used.Moreover, you need the capcode of each device to send messages to pagers.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2024, 08:23:30 am
content: If I'm reading the spec correctly for POCSAG - it's only an 18-bit address ID. 262144 possible combinations. At 2400 bit/s with 16 coded messages per packet (~800bits packet) you could spam every pager over the course of an hour or two with a high power transmitter. Although if the pagers were modified, it could just be as simple as receiving a dedicated coded packet at the right time, they may well have had modified firmware.

author: electronx
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2024, 08:26:34 am
content: Quote from: tom66 on September 19, 2024, 08:23:30 am262144I think if they used telegram it would be more private (except for the 123456 password combination)

author: squadchannel
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2024, 08:34:25 am
content: My thoughts.I consider it a time bomb in the form of a cylindrical cell battery.The 18650 size would easily hold about the same amount of gunpowder as is in a bullet. It would be designed to run an RTC with a small 8-pin AVR in it and detonate at a specified time.This would allow for some versatility, and many different things could be reworked into bombs.Also, the battery would only need to be replaced with an explosive-filled battery.It would also prevent the conditions for detonation from becoming inconsistent due to changes in pager settings, etc.The modify won't even be discovered if you use the blue shrink tube sold in China.Even if the battery capacity is reduced by half, or even if it is reduced to one day, which would have lasted for days to begin with, I will charge it when I get home. don't care.AAA battery? hmmm..... It may be difficult.

author: Andy Chee
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2024, 08:47:37 am
content: Quote from: electronx on September 19, 2024, 08:26:34 amHezbollah paranoia had been heightened by the July assassinations of Ismail Haniyeh in Iran and Fuad Shukr in Beirut (and Saleh al-Arouri in Beirut in January).Hezbollah paranoia may have falsely attributed rocket targeting cell phone location, when in practice, cell phones may not to be directly to blame for revealing their location. In practice, their locations could've also been revealed by an undercover human intelligence agent (i.e. James Bond 007).Regardless of human intelligence or technology intelligence, Israel has capitalised on their paranoia.

author: PA0PBZ
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2024, 09:47:34 am
content: Quote from: tom66 on September 19, 2024, 08:23:30 amIt's 18+3 bits, so 2M combinations. I don't think there was an internal timer, POCSAG has broadcast and group addressing and even if that was not the case it's easy to modify the firmware to listen to a specific address. It makes no sense to use an internal timer because you want to pick the right moment to make them go off, most sources say that they were triggered because the 'modification' was close to discovery. I guess that's also why they triggered the handhelds, better use them now while you still have it.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2024, 09:55:26 am
content: Quote from: PA0PBZ on September 19, 2024, 09:47:34 amThe 3 bits refer to which of the N codewords in the following message to look for, as far as I understand.A BBC video shows the detonations were not simultaneous, though they did occur within short moments of each other:https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/videos/cdenk2721p8owhich lends credence to the idea of spamming the ID numbers (it's quite possible a limited range was identified, or these are factory-assigned, making the problem far easier.)

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2024, 10:11:29 am
content: Quote from: CatalinaWOW on September 19, 2024, 12:34:58 amYour funding and resources are very high when your existence as a country relies on the performance of your secret agency. You can track shipments, IMIE numbers, investigate anyone who buys ie more than 10 phones. Plus you already have a large database of the enemy combatants.Quote from: Gyro on September 18, 2024, 08:51:46 pmIsrael has several aircrafts that can be used for Electronic Warfare. Imagine planes like the old AWACS just much more modern, with phased array radars, and radios covering every bands. It's really not rocket science to send (or receive) any signals from a neighboring country, you wouldn't even need to cross the border. And even if you need to, we are talking about countries that have 100 years between the technology of their airplanes. Lebanon has Cessna 208 listed as their best "combat aircraft", zero fighter aircrafts, not even old MIGs. There is practically nothing they can do to defend their own airspace from someone flying in and transmitting whatever they want.

author: PA0PBZ
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2024, 10:31:38 am
content: Quote from: tom66 on September 19, 2024, 09:55:26 amCode:Although the address (also referred to as a RIC - Radio Identity Code or CAP code - Channel Access Protocol code) is transmitted as 18 bits the actual address is 21-bits long:the remaining three bits are derived from which of the 8 pairs of codewords in the batch the address is sent in.This strategy allows the receiver to turn off for a considerable percentage of the time as it only needs to listen to the pair that applies to it, thus saving a significant amount of battery power.The detonations not being simultaneous makes sense because as far as we know it was based on increasing the temperature (of the battery) so depending on ambient temperature and other factors.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2024, 11:04:58 am
content: Quote from: tom66 on September 19, 2024, 08:23:30 amThey had access to the pagers, so also could have recorded the IDs. As a new batch they may even have been consecutive

author: Karel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2024, 11:09:26 am
content: Israeli shell company behind explosive pagers used by Hezbollah - NYTThe report explained that while the company did produce regular pagers for other clients, those manufacturedfor Hezbollah were “produced separately, they contained batteries laced with explosive.”https://www.jpost.com/breaking-news/article-820815

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2024, 11:17:57 am
content: Quote from: Karel on September 19, 2024, 11:09:26 amQuoteAssuming the battery was a captive rechargeable, that would definitely be the place to put it - plenty of volume, sealed so hard to inspect and won't trigger vapour detection, and you could maybe even use the actual battery part as an initiator.If you are the actual manufacturer, you can do pretty much anything & make it undetectable and behave exactly how you want.The hard part is making sure the target buys them from you .

author: Jeroen3
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2024, 11:22:44 am
content: There must be some duds. I expect more detailed reports soon.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2024, 11:26:12 am
content: I do wonder if "manufacturing" was simply reselling - think about the resources needed to make a product like that - my guess is they were simply buying from the Taiwanese manufacturer, reshipping to "normal" clients and modifying the "specials".I'd be surprised if the Tiawanese company weren't at least suspicious that something fishy was going on, considering how they reacted - taking down info and claiming they were being "manufactured" in Hungary.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2024, 11:27:10 am
content: Quote from: Jeroen3 on September 19, 2024, 11:22:44 amYeh, would love to get my hands on one of these for a teardown -I have some thick polycarbonate for shielding

author: Andy Chee
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2024, 11:37:11 am
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on September 19, 2024, 11:27:10 amAnd a faraday cage laboratory?

author: Phil1977
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2024, 11:43:25 am
content: I hope some people in the world can exactly trace where the modified pagers have been placed. Hopefully no surplus of this production went into a cheap offer for some rescue service or similarThough it quite clearly shows what´s wrong with the world. Many people experience real life war while others sit in a safe place and wonder if it´s still safe to order on ebay. And the people who suffer from war rarely are the ones who cause it.

author: vad
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2024, 12:34:25 pm
content: The Japanese manufacturer of the explosive walkie-talkies stated that production, including that of the batteries, ended many years ago. Did the Lebanese terrorist organization purchase counterfeit clones from the same shell company?https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cj6ezre8xr4oQuote

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2024, 12:34:59 pm
content: There are many reports of eye and facial injuries, which suggests the devices were perhaps configured to 'ring' for some time before detonating, provoking the user to try to read the display.

author: MT
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2024, 01:51:21 pm
content: NYT: BAC Consulting, which manufactured the pagers was an Israeli shell company, citing three US intelligence officers who further said that an additional" two shell companies"were created. So now all sorts of electronic devices will explode around the world depending if you define israel as an zionist apartheid terrorist state or not. Camera battery,phone battery, toy battery etc?! I like to know the names of these other two IDF/Aman/Unit8200 front companies are.

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2024, 01:52:48 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on September 19, 2024, 11:26:12 amBAC Consulting seems to be a small vendor, just reselling stuff. And they told that they cooperate with Gold Apollo. A Hungarian government spokesperson confirmed that BAC Consulting is just a reseller.Source:https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/taiwan-firm-denies-making-pagers-used-lebanon-explosions-rcna171594

author: MT
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2024, 02:07:04 pm
content: According to NYT B.C.A was not a reseller but a manufacturer operated by Israeli military.NYT artickle in full.https://archive.fo/Kv6cPBy all appearances, B.A.C. Consulting was a Hungary-based company that was under contract to produce the devices on behalf of a Taiwanese company, Gold Apollo. In fact, it was part of an Israeli front, according to three intelligence officers briefed on the operation. They said at least two other shell companies were created as well to mask the real identities of the people creating the pagers: Israeli intelligence officers.B.A.C. did take on ordinary clients, for which it produced a range of ordinary pagers. But the only client that really mattered was Hezbollah, and its pagers were far from ordinary. Produced separately, they contained batteries laced with the explosive PETN, according to the three intelligence officers.The pagers began shipping to Lebanon in the summer of 2022 in small numbers, but production was quickly ramped up after Mr. Nasrallah denounced cellphones.Some of Mr. Nasrallah’s fears were spurred by reports from allies that Israel had acquired new means to hack into phones, activating microphones and cameras remotely to spy on their owners. According to three intelligence officials, Israel had invested millions in developing the technology, and word spread among Hezbollah and its allies that no cellphone communication — even encrypted messaging apps — was safe anymore.

author: Njk
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2024, 05:06:17 pm
content: The bad thing is that because of the extensive media coverage worldwide, more fools are now aware of that method. Expect more copycat actions as it's easy to follow something learned from others.The good thing is that it can eventually result in regulations prohibiting selling a device that can't be easily disassembled by user

author: Zucca
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 19, 2024, 06:26:55 pm
content: Quote from: Njk on September 19, 2024, 05:06:17 pm...or exactely the opposite, so that you can tell if the device was tampered after production.Assuming there is something left to check/analyze.....Anyway the Israeli EE (will) surely design the toy to go KABOOM when you try to open it....

author: Njk
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2024, 08:45:16 pm
content: Quote from: Zucca on September 19, 2024, 06:26:55 pmIt's not an atomic bomb. The explosion is relatively weak because of small charge amount. The key assumption is it's a surprise for victim. An elementary protection measure will be enough. Those who ignored it, relying on a service provided by others over the DYI way, will be punished for that. User error.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 20, 2024, 01:27:10 am
content: United Nations explosion damage calculator!https://unsaferguard.org/un-saferguard/blast-damage-estimation

author: Xena E
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 20, 2024, 02:53:53 am
content: I'm always annoyed when something like this happens because the "experts" all crawl out of the woodwork, all with an axe to grind.If I read: "reports have stated that..." or " intelligence officers have said" or similar, I'm pretty damn sure what I'm being told is a complete pile of bullshit that some lazyarsed hack reporter has just made up.Also, reporting incidents like this is like reporting kids throwing rocks at cars from bridges, it just gives other arseholes ideas how to get their kicks.This was either a membership control own goal, or a very cunning bit of logistics. I don't know why anyone is amazed by it? The technology is relatively simple, it's only the planning that was problematic.Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on September 19, 2024, 11:27:10 amIf you pulled that off it would swell the subs wouldn't it?Regards,X

author: Andy Chee
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 20, 2024, 03:24:06 am
content: Quote from: Xena E on September 20, 2024, 02:53:53 amNot everyone is familiar with explosives technology, and how little of it is necessary to do harm.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 20, 2024, 04:11:54 am
content: Quote from: Xena E on September 20, 2024, 02:53:53 amIt's amazing because they spent several years setting up a front company that bought the rights to the pager brand and then arranged the manufacture rights as well, and then designed and made 5000 of them with charges inside with remote trigger capability, and then made sure they were the trusted provider who got thousands of these things into people's hands without getting detected.It's very impressive.BTW, don't be surprised to see changes in regards to security screening electronics equipment at airports as a result.

author: Xena E
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 20, 2024, 05:57:24 am
content: Quote from: Andy Chee on September 20, 2024, 03:24:06 amNo, not individuals, though an organisation or country would.I wouldn't mind taking the bet that you could easily find hundreds of EEV members that could quickly provide the tech knowledge in a small team.As for the ordinance, yeah not a problem, a college chemist or two...

author: Dundarave
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 20, 2024, 06:05:18 am
content: Here’s an interesting theory from todays Canada’s Globe & Mail (Eric Reguly):“One of Italy’s top security experts, Umberto Rapetto, a former commander of the high-tech crime unit of the Guardia di Finanza, or Financial Guard, the semi-military national police force within the Ministry of Economy and Finance, said the pager attacks had a Mission Impossible nature about them. But he played down the reports the explosives might have been planted somewhere around their supply chain.He told The Globe he believed Hezbollah itself planted explosives in the pagers as a security measure. “If a Hezbollah member were captured with his pager, his captors could examine the communication history stored in the devices,” he said. “To avoid this risk, Hezbollah must be able to render the devices unusable in a hurry.”He said it is possible that Israel’s intelligence agencies intercepted, or were leaked, the destruction codes for each device. “They could then send the codes to those thousands of devices all at once to the pagers’ network,” he said.”TLDR: a theory that Hezbollah wanted the pagers to be explodable when they bought them, as a security destruction mechanism.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 20, 2024, 06:08:27 am
content: You can readily receive and collect all the messages. Even exploded pager would have a serial number, you can go back to the saved messages and retrieve the full history.This way you don't need to know who owns individual ones before the capture, since that's harder logistically, assuming no supply chain attack.

author: Xena E
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 20, 2024, 06:10:42 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on September 20, 2024, 04:11:54 amAs for the airport thing, I'd expect nothing else.It may be that nothing with manufacturers installed batteries would be allowed, a return to the replaceable commodity batteries in phones needing purchase after your travel.That will be a PITA.

author: Karel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 20, 2024, 06:49:25 am
content: Quote from: Xena E on September 20, 2024, 06:10:42 amThe positive side would be that cellphone manufacturers would offer again models with an easy to replace batterywhich I would welcome, even if it makes is a bit bigger.

author: Phil1977
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 20, 2024, 07:29:34 am
content: The idea of improvised explosive devices is everything but not new.It´s new that you get a device that completely looks and feels like a product of standard global electronic manufacturing. Even if you make it possible that new devices needs to be easy to be disassembled, what do you think how many people are qualified to distinguish a buffer capacitor from a bomblet?I think if attacks like that happen more often then politicians have a good reason to shut down free global trade. There will be no AliExpress any more if each delivery from a non-certified manufacturer will be blocked or if the buyer needs to pay a detailed scan for explosives or poisons.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 20, 2024, 07:33:24 am
content: I think you are over reacting, its two groups fighting that have been at each others throats for the last 1000 years. you could pay off a janitor to leave a door open so you can plant all the sabotage you ever wanted when the situation is as bad as it is over there for as long as it has been regardless of all the import export restrictions that can be made up.A state that shuts down trade will simply implode, with people storming the gates in order to get discount washing machines. They already storm the stores and burn them down if the prices are too high in a normal marketThat is a good way to literary destroy a country, stop trading and lock the borders. Where did I hear the government decided reasonably priced goods are not a requirement for a functioning society.....? The Vyatka-12 effort did not solve the problem !

author: Andy Chee
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 20, 2024, 07:47:33 am
content: Quote from: coppercone2 on September 20, 2024, 07:33:24 amI think you're missing the point. Israel has yet to guarantee that their rigged devices are only contained to Hezbollah.Until Israel explains* how they infiltrated the supply chain, there could well be un-detonated devices circulating in the global market beyond their intended Hezbollah targets.*not necessarily explain to us, but at least to CIA, MI6, or other world intelligence agencies

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 20, 2024, 07:52:25 am
content: don't drag me into that, I am responding to the poster above me

author: Andy Chee
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 20, 2024, 07:57:20 am
content: Quote from: coppercone2 on September 20, 2024, 07:52:25 amThe poster said that free trade would need to be shut down.In the interests of preventing untraceable explosives from entering the marketplace, I am inclined to agree that halting free trade may be an unintended consequence.Until all rigged pagers and radios are accounted for, the global marketplace is not safe. Free trade will be slowed down by X-ray machines, chemical sniffers and bomb detecting dogs.

author: Phil1977
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 20, 2024, 08:11:38 am
content: I said *if* this type of attack spreads around the world - and I really hope it doesn't.I just think this because so far global trade works well while authorities are trying to protect people from the worst accidents like poisoned food or child toys. But if large organisations would start to distribute harmful goods on purpose, then things will change.And though some people may like the idea of no foreign products in their country, it would extremely rise the prices of everything technological and lower the quality. In a too well protected market where only complicatedly selected people may sell you have no free choice, you have to take what other people think is good for you. And I think there are enough examples in history that this doesn't work well.

author: IOsetting
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 20, 2024, 09:02:18 am
content: Golden Apollo might have something to do with ithttps://www.cw.com.tw/article/5111852QuoteQuote

author: IOsetting
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 20, 2024, 09:10:30 am
content: If it is for this purpose, there will be plenty of better ways to *destroy* the device instead of making it so explosiveQuote from: Dundarave on September 20, 2024, 06:05:18 am

author: MT
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 20, 2024, 01:19:46 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on September 20, 2024, 04:11:54 amAt a first glance it might look like that but you could also argue the sloppiness of Hezzbolla security intel was at rock bottom...Twice! While Hungarian intel didnt knew anything? Or pretended not to?Any intel organisations worth it's name keeps an eye on what Aman/Unit8200 up to and have set up heir own front companies for very long time, one example was CIA who set up a barrage of shellcompanies to purchase materials like titan etc that was need for the SR71 project. One supplier of titan was Soviet union. The soviets most likely new about that and saw this as anopportunity to get dollar for their own front companies just like North Korea does to day under heavy sanctions still makes c:a 1b USD a year in profit.The MIC (Military Industrial Complex) has it's ways and methods.Lebanon airport first out:https://www.ndtv.com/world-news/israel-lebanon-hezbollah-pagers-walkie-talkies-banned-on-flights-from-lebanon-after-deadly-blasts-6606808

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 20, 2024, 02:17:33 pm
content: Update on BAC Consulting:- is a letterbox company (tons of other letterbox companies in same street)- founded in March 2022- shipping of pagers allegedly done by Norta Global (in Bulgaria, another letterbox company)- Taiwanese media reports about a mysterious couple who made the initial contact with Gold ApolloSource:https://www.tagesschau.de/investigativ/ndr-wdr/israel-hisbollah-pager-100.html(in German)

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 20, 2024, 02:41:04 pm
content: There will probably be plenty of dumb knee-jerk reactions like banning pagers, when a pager is the very last thing anyone would boobytrap now it's happened & people move on to the next thing to hide bad stuff inside.By bet is on vapes.

author: Andy Chee
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 20, 2024, 02:51:16 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on September 20, 2024, 02:41:04 pmExplosives in vapes is the probably the wrong strategy.If you're going to booby trap vapes, better to lace the vape fluid with polonium or other poison.

author: Zucca
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 20, 2024, 03:04:18 pm
content: Quote from: Dundarave on September 20, 2024, 06:05:18 amWell after living in Italy for 23 years, take whatever comes from the "Guardia di Finanza" with a big pinch of salt.

author: Njk
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 20, 2024, 03:12:41 pm
content: Quote from: Dundarave on September 20, 2024, 06:05:18 amVery probable indeed. Otherwise, it would be extremely stupid from the business perspective. Obviously, there is not enough room to plant a lethal charge (in pagers anyway), as the device must remain fully functional. What the explosion will destroy for sure is the device itself. 5000 devices exploded and only about ten casualties. It's unlikely each was a militant. Low mortality rate, high collateral damage. It will only make the militia infuriated and incentivize the retaliate actions. While it'll take quite long time and high expenses to organize the event. Does not make sense. But if you'd learned about the explosion codes and going to start a war with those guys anyway, it makes perfect sense.I'd been in Tel Aviv on several occasions, to work at the industrial park next to the airport. In the very beginning, I was warned that the folks in that region are hard on virtually anything and can be very demanding. One must keep that in mind all the time. On one occasion, a one-week trip was planned but I'd spent there four months. Enough time to develop some opinions based on the moments of everyday life. In general, I agree with that evaluation.

author: jonovid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 20, 2024, 03:21:06 pm
content: C4 plastic explosive can be made to look like a lithium battery, be part of the battery with the battery pack reduced in size.so the device is still functional. so any consumer electronics with a lithium battery can be modified into a booby trap.lethality can also be increased by adding biological agents in glass capsules that look like electrolytic capacitors.booby traps that are or look like everyday items, are not new in war.in The Second World War the Luftwaffe dropped colorful butterfly bombs that looked like kids toys.https://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/education/resources/home-front-1939-1945-part-one/butterfly-bomb/

author: Kleinstein
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 20, 2024, 03:34:24 pm
content: Quote from: Andy Chee on September 20, 2024, 07:47:33 amIt looks like the expolsive pagers were delivered directly to hezbollah in something like a single order and not too long ago. So chances are high than not many devices have diffused away. After all with an internal number there is not much sense in stealing or selling such a pager. They are often also limited to a region / signal provider to have reception.There are likely still a few unexpoded ones. One is duds that failed to explode. Others did not have reception (e.g. down in a tunnel or empty battery) and than possibly residual stock that was never activated. At least the model is known - so airports could identify the model them relatively easy.Once send out, there was always a danger of getting detected (e.g. at an airport or damaged devices or failing batteries). So Israel could not wait very long to make them explode.I don't see a need to destroy the devices with an explosive. For just disabeling a simple software / memory version would be enough. There are enough ways to brick a µC to make it unusable. There is also very little information saved on the pagers - maybe the last few messages, that would be easy to delete. There may be a low mortallity rate, but the injuries are quite severe in many cases, at least to have the persons out of action.Compared to missiles send to the location of cell phones this attak is quite well targeted: not that many victims outside of Hezbollah.

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 20, 2024, 03:58:53 pm
content: Regarding POCSAG, modern pagers support AES 128 encryption.

author: argmdq
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: September 21, 2024, 02:57:10 pm
content: As days go by and learning about this letterbox company in Hungary with a license to manufacture, the building part seems more clear.I guess if BAC had a license to manufacture GA pagers they would get everything needed to make the pagers(BOM, Gerbers, firmware binaries,source code??), maybe even whole PCBs if the agreement was to just assemble them. They could modify the firmware to trigger on a specific broadcast message.But then how do you make the Hezbollah source from the pagers you have ?Would they wait for an order and swap the original pagers for the modified ones? or approach hezbollah somehow to get the order in the first place?And the pagers blew up around the country, so they must have found a way to send the trigger message using Hezbollah's transmitters infrastructure. Or how could they transmit the trigger message over such a large area?Anyway, really like a movie, amazing work of intelligence and engineering

author: Andy Chee
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2024, 03:31:09 pm
content: Quote from: argmdq on September 21, 2024, 02:57:10 pmUndoubtedly there is a human intelligence element to this entire operation.I imagine that a deeply implanted Israeli undercover spy agent with high level Hezbollah access, has strongly suggested to those in charge, that the cause of the January/July assassinations was due to cell phone tracking, and recommended that everyone be issued with new pagers. And conveniently, that spy agent has recommended a supplier for such pagers.

author: Stray Electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 22, 2024, 12:20:07 am
content: Quote from: ataradov on September 18, 2024, 03:56:49 pmNo, it's not a one time attack. If they're even half intelligent the Palestinians (and many others!) will never again trust a cell phone, pager, walkie talkie or any other electronics device from now and until doomsday so in reality this means they will never again be able use any form of electronic communications so this will have tofundamentallychange how they plan and coordinate their attacks. So even if another attack like this one never happens again, everyone will have to change the way that they operate.What this really means is that ANY electronic device that is capable or receiving a signal in any form can now potentially be used to create a remote control bomb. Think of all of your wi-fi, internet or radio connected devices such as your Atomic Clocks, routers, computers, solar system micro inverters, wi-fi connected refrigerators, GPSs, laptops, security cameras, etc etc etc and then think of the potential for any of them to be made into a bomb. Even large devices such as your automobile computers could potentially made into a remote control bomb and potentially very massive ones. The implications of these attacks are HUGE and not just for the Palestinians. Just imagine that the Palestinian terrorists decide to convert a bunch of Wi-Fi routers into bombs and to sell to households in say France and then simultaneously detonate 10,000 of them at some point to make a political statement.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 22, 2024, 12:23:18 am
content: Quote from: Stray Electron on September 22, 2024, 12:20:07 amWhy? You just place in place screening procedures and may be proactively replace the batteries before use.It would be really stupid to limit your communication options because of one incident. Imagine if US banned airplanes after 9/11.In fact, I expect this to just push them to take a second look at the communications infrastructure and explore more secure communication option, may be using custom apps with encryption. At least that's what I would do.

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 22, 2024, 01:33:18 am
content: Quote from: argmdq on September 21, 2024, 02:57:10 pmBy using a programmed timer. No need to hack the infrastructure. The ICOM radios did not have a transmitting infrastructure, yet still blew up.

author: Andy Chee
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 22, 2024, 03:57:27 am
content: Quote from: Bud on September 22, 2024, 01:33:18 amThe ICOM radios had a receiver. They could receive a broadcast transmission to detonate. This broadcast signal could potentially be transmitted from an overhead Israeli drone.

author: Andy Chee
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 22, 2024, 04:07:47 am
content: Quote from: Stray Electron on September 22, 2024, 12:20:07 amThe fundamental mistake Hezbollah made from this incident, was to rely on a single source supplier of equipment.Of course, being a terrorist listed organisation, Hezbollah is probably unable to procure equipment from Digikey or Lowes like normal people, so they may have no choice in suppliers.

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 22, 2024, 04:45:32 am
content: Quote from: Andy Chee on September 22, 2024, 03:57:27 amThis is a fantasy. Radios would need to be turned on and tuned to a specific frequency and specific operating mode. No reasonable attacker would rely on such vage conditions for a success.

author: Andy Chee
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 22, 2024, 05:13:53 am
content: Quote from: Bud on September 22, 2024, 04:45:32 amYou want fantasy? How about simultaneous detonations of pagers across a city!In practice, the rigged explosive batteries in the ICOM radios could have their own Israeli made decoders incorporated into their detonators. Only the antenna and receiver front-end (prior to any tuning circuitry) is re-purposed from the radio.

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 22, 2024, 01:35:36 pm
content: Quote from: Andy Chee on September 22, 2024, 05:13:53 amI already told you - a timer activator circuit placed at the same time with the explosive charge.QuoteToo complicated and costly. Guess what, intelligence agencies also have limited budgets.

author: radiolistener
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 22, 2024, 01:59:37 pm
content: Quote from: ataradov on September 20, 2024, 06:08:27 amyes, remote explode by device serial number looks like most easy way to control which one should explode.It opens up some very interesting possibilities. Since everyone uses their phone to register accounts on the internet, the mafia could buy the iPhone serial number of anyone from tracking agencies and remotely cause it to explode. The news would report it as a random battery explosion, with no evidence that it was an intentional act.This can work with any gadget...The same is possible with modern electronically controlled cars. The mafia could remotely activate malicious code in the car's electronics, leading to a car accident and death, with no way to determine who caused it. The malicious code could erase all traces of its presence from the system's memory milliseconds before the car and its passengers are destroyed.Quote from: Bud on September 22, 2024, 01:35:36 pmIt's not complicated if such a circuit is added during the chip manufacturing process. However, the question is about adding explosives to the battery. If they were to include it in every device, it could be discovered by disassembling the battery of any given device. This could lead to serious reputational damage for the manufacturing company.

author: Stray Electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 22, 2024, 03:08:24 pm
content: Quote from: ataradov on September 22, 2024, 12:23:18 amYou seem to forget that that's exactly what the US did after 911. Every aircraft in the US was grounded for a number of days until the USG understood what had happened and found ways to (more or less) guarantee flying safety.Or do you really think that Hezbollah has the technical expertise and resources be able to figure out exactly how this was done and to find a way to guarantee that it or something very similar to it can never be done again?And you are still ASSUMING that the explosives were a part of the batteries. They may or may not have been but the next time, it's likely that they will be better incorporated. Hell, there are moldable hard plastic explosives and if I were behind this operation I would make the entire case from an explosive material. And no, Hezbollah does not have bomb sniffing dogs!

author: linux-works
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 22, 2024, 03:10:48 pm
content: I've seen a pen-tester team get root access to a car just via wifi and bluetooth (it really blew us away when we got this info that someone who did not have source code access still got in).but it takes extreme skill. like, very extreme. a small group of people who can do such things. but still, we had some vulnerabilities and that's why we hired a pen test group.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 22, 2024, 03:16:26 pm
content: Quote from: Stray Electron on September 22, 2024, 03:08:24 pmI'm not forgetting that. I don't suggest they go to the same supplier to get more pagers immediately.Quote from: Stray Electron on September 22, 2024, 03:08:24 pmI don't know, but I would expect them to know enough. I'd expect them to be more familiar with explosives and ways to use them than an average person on this forum.Quote from: Stray Electron on September 22, 2024, 03:08:24 pmThis is why you need better screening procedures. It is a battle, you do your best and at some point the other side will run out of places to place the explosives.I would not say "they should have seen this coming". Half the world got halted by the CrowdStrike screw up, and arguably they should have seen this coming as well. It is not always possible to see everything, but it is possible to improve your operating procedures based on the events that actually happened.

author: radiolistener
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 22, 2024, 03:33:21 pm
content: Quote from: linux-works on September 22, 2024, 03:10:48 pmNow think about what would happen if someone, remotely watching you through cameras via the internet, connects to your electric vehicle and unexpectedly issues a command to disable the brakes, accelerate to full speed, and turn the steering wheel toward an oncoming truck...And even more, since the electric vehicle is equipped with cameras and radar systems scanning the surroundings, attackers could, during a regular software update via the internet, upload a small piece of malware to your car's computer. This malware could automatically activate and execute the specified actions upon detecting a dangerous situation on the road. As the driver, you would likely be unable to do anything to stop it.We can go even further and imagine a situation where all the electric vehicles around you could receive malicious code that instructs them to automatically search for you through their cameras with face recognition and launch a hunt...

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 22, 2024, 08:34:29 pm
content: Quote from: radiolistener on September 22, 2024, 01:59:37 pmWhat chip manufacturing process you are talking about?! Production of that model of the handheld was terminated 10 years ago, including the batteries for it. Do you follow the story at all, Dude?

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 22, 2024, 09:51:19 pm
content: Quote from: radiolistener on September 22, 2024, 03:33:21 pmAs long as a vehicle contains the features that allow this, and is connected to some network, it's not a if, it's a when.

author: vad
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 23, 2024, 12:51:06 am
content: The theory that small explosive charges were set off by a coded pager message has some major problems, in my opinion:1) Explosives are easy to detect at airports with dogs and chemical analyzers. Why would Israeli security forces take such a big risk? The chances of one of thousands of pagers being caught over six months are just too high to gamble with.2) If Hezbollah militants were the target, the plan simply didn’t work. Most victims only had minor burns and soft tissue injuries, with only a few fatalities reported out of thousands of pager users.3) The explosions all happened within 10 minutes, but not at the same time. If the detonations were triggered by a coded pager message, why didn’t they go off simultaneously?Using Occam’s razor, a simpler explanation makes more sense to me - thermal runaway of lithium batteries.Here’s how it could have happened: the batteries had rigged BMS that caused a short circuit, and the batteries’ safety valves were probably disabled or clogged too. Also there wasn’t a trigger message - these explosions were on a timer. A variation of +/- 5 minutes over six months would approximately match the 20 ppm tolerance of a typical 32,768 Hz crystal. And the goal wasn’t to target users but to disrupt enemy communications by destroying their devices (pagers and later radios).

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 23, 2024, 02:22:07 am
content: Quote from: Stray Electron on September 22, 2024, 12:20:07 amJust having the device "quietly" catch fire would do more damage than a little pop in most instances, without any explosive residue that could get detected. (See the Mythbusters where they set off a bullet outside of a gun.) And that has already happened many times in the past, as a result of defects and/or overzealous cost cutting.

author: Buriedcode
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 23, 2024, 04:19:37 am
content: I'm frankly surprised that an organisation like that wouldn't check the supply chain - it seems to avoid the problems with cell phones, they opted for the old school pagers, but just bought them "bulk buy" and didn't do any background checking. Thats a pretty careless move for an organisation that is worried about security enough to not use cell phones.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 23, 2024, 05:06:42 am
content: Not using cell phones if you want any kind of confidentiality is an obvious move that even a kid could figure out these days.Conducting a thorough check of your supply chain is another thing. And maybe they had. There was probably no sign of anything doubtful.The only thing odd in itself is that the alleged company behind this is "B.A.C.", based in Hungary. Buying anything critical from a company based in the EU and member of NATO, for these guys, was probably not the smartest move. It boggles the mind, even.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 23, 2024, 05:41:06 am
content: Quote from: vad on September 23, 2024, 12:51:06 amNo, it's all widely reported now exactly how it happened:https://archive.md/kKDVy

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 23, 2024, 08:21:51 am
content: Quote from: vad on September 23, 2024, 12:51:06 amNot if hermeticallly sealed in the way that, say, batteries are.QuoteNetwork latencyQuoteThey don't explode like that though using the batttery as an initiator could be plausible

author: radiolistener
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 23, 2024, 10:51:35 am
content: Quote from: vad on September 23, 2024, 12:51:06 amNot all explosives are detectable with usual detectors and dogs.Quote from: vad on September 23, 2024, 12:51:06 amSending a separate message to each pager takes some time, it cannot be done simultaneously because sending one message requires a certain amount of time.Let's assume sending one message requires 0.2 seconds. Then, sending 5000 messages would take 16 minutes.

author: Jeroen3
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 23, 2024, 11:07:16 am
content: Quote from: vad on September 23, 2024, 12:51:06 am1) are cargo pallets scanned that thoroughly as well?2) it did work, it put heavy load on services and exposed lack of trust in supply chain that needs addressing. Plus it disrupted communications for some time. Maybe even days.3) Here in NL we have a cell broadcast emergency messages and these do not all trigger at the same time. Sometimes minutes later.I would assume pagers get network time?

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 23, 2024, 12:00:53 pm
content: Quote from: Jeroen3 on September 23, 2024, 11:07:16 amPagers work on a radio communication system separate from GSM/3G/4G. These ones are specifically:https://www.cryptomuseum.com/covert/radio/apollo/ar924/You normally cannot address them the same way as a phone. It's not as simple as sending an SMS. Or calling an API over the internet. Sending messages is typically you need VPN access, use obscure software on specific computers. Then there is a separate array of transmitters. There are broadcast messages in these systems, but it al depends on the specific settings they used. There is no encryption. The whole system could be guarded, and air gapped. Which would still be possible to access with people in key positions, but let's look further.They also exploded CB radios. Those have limited range, 15-20 Km max. Unless they had many operatives simultaneously doing it in key positions, with tweaked radios, I find that very unlikely to be able to send messages.So here is how you do it the simple way: You fly anhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EL/W-2085on your border, and transmit whatever you want at whatever distance with phased array.I find it disturbing that on an electronics forum, people are just guessing without a very basic understanding how these electronics devices are supposed to work, or even spending 5 minutes doing some research. Not you specifically. Occam's razor and such.And BTW using the pager network for "secure communications" is so foolish. A child with an SDR can decode those messages.

author: Xena E
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 23, 2024, 01:38:52 pm
content: Quote from: tszaboo on September 23, 2024, 12:00:53 pmJust so. Also the acceptance of whatever reports from news media as being facts, when most of it is just propaganda bullshit or fairy stories made up to increase viewers, listeners, or, readership.

author: Jeroen3
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 23, 2024, 01:46:58 pm
content: That's why it's good to ask questions. I knew they were a completely separate network, I did not know that don't talk back at all.Apparently some networks do transmit time. I do not know if this is one did.(pages are from before my time)The radio plane is an interesting possibility, I do know modern phased-array radars are capable of EW, but can they also generate these signals.In the end it's about facts. And those are difficult on this subject.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 23, 2024, 02:37:55 pm
content: Quote from: Jeroen3 on September 23, 2024, 01:46:58 pmAs I said, I'm not targeting you with that remark, don't take it personally.I could say the same for the "experts" and "journalists" in general.They ask the expert if it's possible to blow up a battery, they answer "Yes, but not with this much power and without modifications in a pager such as this." Next day headlines: Battery explosion possible in pagers. Also then they go ahead and publish causality figures coming from known terrorists organizations on face value. And now we started seeing news articles where the source is "Anonymous users on reddit claimed"Quote from: Jeroen3 on September 23, 2024, 01:46:58 pmThe EW part on the plane is speculation from my part. I've read some technical report years ago, that some of these newer AWACS type planes didn't have dedicated radio, it was all part of the radar installation with phase arrays, and it makes sense. These planes are going to be able to transmit and receive with any communication protocol on any radio band, and the true capabilities are going to be closely guarded secrets.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 26, 2024, 10:57:46 am
content: Quote from: vad on September 23, 2024, 12:51:06 amWorth noting here that the detection of explosives is quite difficulty for Hezbollah apparently due to the contamination of explosives literally everywhere inside a terrorist organisation. Funny that!

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 26, 2024, 11:01:26 am
content: Quote from: Xena E on September 23, 2024, 01:38:52 pmIt's even worse. It's naive speculation. Someone sees a YouTube video with hackers then one with exploding batteries and extrapolates that to an outcome. The reason they extrapolated that is that level of thinking without any form of criticality or research but wanting to sound authoritative is the default state for 95% of the population. It's not like they don't have a suitable audience.Fortunately it takes the same level of thinking to flip burgers. Mmmm burgers. I think I'll nip to my local employer of speculative psychics and get one for lunch.

author: wn1fju
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 26, 2024, 03:21:18 pm
content: Quote from Bud: Guess what, intelligence agencies also have limited budgets.If an intelligence agency really, really wants someone or something, money is the last thing they worry about.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 26, 2024, 04:24:06 pm
content: Quote from: tszaboo on September 23, 2024, 12:00:53 pmIf the messages are encoded, then intercepting them makes no difference. This is as old as the Enigma codex used by the Germans during WW2

author: vad
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 27, 2024, 03:07:22 am
content: If the radio-triggered cover story were true, there must be dozens or even hundreds of unexploded pagers out there. For example, units that were out of network coverage when the detonation signal was sent. I bet news networks would pay a six-figure amount to get hold of one of these units, enough to make any lucky owner in poor and corruption-ridden Lebanon rich. Has anyone seen a pager teardown video on CNN or Al Jazeera?And if there were no such reports, maybe the pagers exploded on a timer, and none of the timers malfunctioned.

author: globoy
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2024, 01:11:19 am
content: It appears the explosions were radio triggered and the explosive concealed in the battery. Quite a bit of detail including the fact that some explosives laden walkie-talkies where first introduced in 2015 and until now used only to spy.https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/other/mossad-s-pager-operation-inside-israel-s-penetration-of-hezbollah/ar-AA1rKXweThe engineering must have been quite sophisticated.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 17, 2024, 10:09:53 pm
content: New construction details:https://x.com/JewishWarrior13/status/1846591354836562180