Best SMT/Vision/Feeders for about 5k? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Pooldawg
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 30, 2019, 07:23:28 pm
content: Hello all,Looking to take the plunge into a lab SMT machine and was looking for thoughts on all the different setups. You can drive your self into insanity trying to look at them all.Thoughts on Neoden3v ADV with vision? I found a used Madell2006-2 that could be thrown into the mix. Thoughts on this machine?I was curious as to what people would serious consider with this price range. Would like to be able to 402's and BGAs. All small run stuff. 5-10 Pieces....I read through various threads, but some of them are quite dated.Thanks!

author: mrpackethead
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 01, 2019, 06:52:46 am
content: I'd honestly suggest that at $5k, you're in for a bunch of fustration with any system.Invest that money in a good manual placement system, a good stencil printer and a good oven.If you are only doing 5 boards...

author: Pooldawg
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 01, 2019, 06:30:58 pm
content: Thanks for the response. That is what I have today. However some of my boards are starting to get 2-300 parts on them.Assembly time and rework is getting to be quite long...There seem to be a lot of folks out there with the neodenv3.

author: mrpackethead
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 01, 2019, 08:38:37 pm
content: Quote from: Pooldawg on May 01, 2019, 06:30:58 pmThe assembly time will not get any better with a $5k machine, if you are only doing a small number of boards. They take a lot of time to set up and get going, and these machines are simply not reliable. enough.

author: Reckless
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 03, 2019, 06:03:20 am
content: I have a universal gsm with feeders for $5000. Can do 0402 reliably. Universals are easy to learn and work on. Easy to find spare parts cheap. If interested msg me, I am in Chicago.

author: protoneer
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 03, 2019, 07:30:10 am
content: SMT460 is an option but they go for around $7K without feeders...I had one of the Drag feeder type machines to start , TVM802 I tink. Did hundreds of boards on it but the feeders are hard work.Then I Moved to a SMT660 with CL feeders and its heaven... Except heaven is a bit on the large size...

author: SMTech
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 03, 2019, 07:53:13 am
content: QuoteBut that's true of everything, pick any machine with real feeders and its the feeders and their mounting system that makes up a huge proportion of the machine because they need to have certain dimensions for the tape to travel through and double back on itself to come out again. Its actually the fastest most expensive machines that address this issue the best as they start competing in the components per hour per square meter arena. TWS machines are quite compact for their sector but thers only so small a useful PnP can be and that gets even truer if you use trays of chips or short tape or build larger boards, and even more so if you need to do both.

author: Reckless
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 03, 2019, 01:29:56 pm
content: Quote from: protoneer on May 03, 2019, 07:30:10 amHow many boards have you done on SMT660? I originally considered one but was strongly advised that chinese machines can not handle serious production. I emailed someone who someone who purchased one in South America and he couldn't get it running.

author: protoneer
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 03, 2019, 06:06:29 pm
content: Quote from: Reckless on May 03, 2019, 01:29:56 pmI have done thousands of boards on it over the last 18 months. I would says its great for light production.For serious production you would need at least 2 or 3. Having a spare/redundant setup reduces risk and increases production rates.I use my machine mostly on weekends and I am finding its getting to slow for my need. From the looks of it the SMT460 is just a cut back versionusing the same hardware. I can maybe afford 2 of those instead of the one big SMT660/SMT860.This also sounds promising to me..https://www.eevblog.com/forum/manufacture/pick-place-with-conveyor-0201-cl-feeders/msg2237841/#msg2237841If I can write custom software for my machine this will open lots of opportunities for me.

author: nisma
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 03, 2019, 06:32:31 pm
content: CMH528 could fit the bill at 4880$ free shipping and 10 feeders. It depends if 2 nozzle is enough for you per side.

author: Pooldawg
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2019, 04:45:05 am
content: Thanks,I have been looking over the Charm High Machines.http://www.charmhigh-tech.com/sale-7840275-2-heads-28-feeders-adavanced-chmt528p-yamaha-pneumatic-feeder-smd-pick-and-place-machine-vision-syst.htmlI cant find the spec, but I thought the max component height was 5mm?That would seem to run into a lot of issues. Power inductors, connectors, EL caps, just to think of a few...-PD

author: Pooldawg
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2019, 04:45:52 am
content: Thanks,I saw your listing on Ebay, that is a big machine. I am looking for something along the lines of desktop for now.-PD

author: Pooldawg
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2019, 05:06:06 am
content: What If I stretched the budget a bit and got this:http://www.charmhigh-tech.com/sale-8558501-4-heads-smt-pick-and-place-machine-chmt530p4-with-yamaha-pneumatic-feeder-8mm-12mm-16mm.htmlIt says 15mm on Z height, not sure what that translates to for component clearance. Does that come from the pick side of things.How much is shipping typically? Do I have to pay tarriffs or customs?Thanks!

author: protoneer
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2019, 07:18:59 pm
content: Make very sure about the component height max...My SMT660 can move 20mm on the A axis but only place 5mm. This is due to camera and conveyor rails.I managed to modify a Juki nozzle and now I can pick up 10mm Caps very slowly.

author: Pooldawg
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2019, 08:26:11 pm
content: Quote from: protoneer on May 06, 2019, 07:18:59 pmHow often do you find the 5mm an issue?-Jason

author: protoneer
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2019, 09:06:11 pm
content: I dont find it to be a mojor issue. Connectors and big items usually need hand placement.I do find it a pain to place 0.5mm pitch items. The machines can do it but the software limits it.

author: 48X24X48X
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 07, 2019, 05:04:02 am
content: I would say if you have a chance to visit the manufacturer and see the machine and software with your own eyes, it is better. Bring your own PCB design (and it's pick and place files) with some components reel and test it there itself. That way, whatever nice looking videos you may have seen on the internet can be verified. Many of these manufacturers are lumped in the same state (Zhejiang - Neoden, ZhengBang, QiHe, Eleesen, Yuchengtech) except Charmhigh in Changsha. So, if you plan a trip that could cover all that, you will be able to see for yourself and make a better decision. Myself should have done this in the past as now I have a push feeder machine collecting dust.

author: Ribster
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 08, 2019, 09:00:10 am
content: What machines do you have bad experience with ?

author: Pooldawg
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 08, 2019, 09:37:02 pm
content: I have been looking at the neoden4 or the chmt30p.These seem to be rather popular and have relatively positive reviews.I was looking at a madell dp2006-2 that is on ebay, but it seems to be behind in technology compared to the machines above.Total expense will end up being 7500ish.-PD