“Battery EV”    vs    “Hydrogen Fuel cell EV” - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Faringdon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2021, 09:58:39 pm
content: Sorry if this got discussed here b4...couldn’t find itIMHO, it looks like the "Battery EV" has the eight major problems (below) which will mean Hydrogen Fuel cell EV’s always taking at the very least, 25% of the EV car market...?1..Batteries are made of loads of cells. One cell going bad can invalidate the whole battery...so battery wear out is a big problem for battery EVs...(with a battery, you never know just when that rogue cell is going to show, could be any time). Hydrogen cars use a much smaller battery, so this is less of a problem.2..Recycing all those batterys will be too problematic (cost, time, danger, etc)3..Lithium batteries can’t be charged at decent rate when below -10degc (even zero degC?). Discharging a lithium battery is a bit dodgy when ambient is -10degC. {EDIT..?the Li batts can be heated to solve this.}4..Lithium batteries degrade much quicker at ambient temperatures around 38degC plus5..A 10 year Battery EV will have near zero second hand price, since it will be useless, since its battery will be pretty well dead.6..You cant “home charge” a Battery EV if you live in a flat, or house without a drive. (OK, same goes for Hydrogen Fuel cell EV, but hydrogn EV is quicker to charge when youre "out on the road")7..Lithium batteries use rare metals which aren’t found (in sufficient qty) in EU/UK/USA/AUS/NZ/SA.8...A hydrogen Fuel cell EV can be “recharged” much quicker than a battery EV. (EDIT see post#107 for HFCEV fuelling times with temperature)

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 11, 2021, 10:08:34 pm
content: 1. Fuel cells wear out faster than good batteries.2.https://spectrum.ieee.org/lithiumion-battery-recycling-finally-takes-off-in-north-america-and-europe3. Any decent EV has a thermal management system.4. The same as 3.5 Read 1. And nope, 10 year old Teslas do not cost 0.6. It's not that hard to install such chargers. Norway does exactly that.7. But fuel cells use precious metals like Platinum.8. Refueling of a single car may be faster, however throughput of the refueling stations does not allow to refuel cars one after another. This is not even considering much higher cost compared to charging stall and problems with hydrogen transportation.

author: Faringdon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2021, 10:12:42 pm
content: QuoteThanks, but There's a lot of space in Norway....a big British housing estate full of terraced houses with no driveways, would have no Battery EV recharging facility near the house....Looking at places like Hunslett Carr or Harehills in Leeds, Walsall in Birmingham, Plumstead in London, Bulwell in Nottingham, Barkerend in Bradford, plus the "non-luxury" areas of citys like Manchester, Grimsby, Liverpool, Oldham, Leicester, Sheffield, Sunderland , etc etc.For those "non-luxury" areas, owning an EV car will mean councils building huge Hydrogen multi-story car parks, full of Hydrogran/Fuel cell cars (plus huge solar/wind farms, to do the electrolysis for them) .....the "non-luxury" Beeston resident will simply have to walk to the Hydrogen multi story, or electric scooter to it. If there wasnt enough wind or sun, then the "non luxury" resident will simply have to drive the hydrogen EV to a hydrogen station, and fill up with what they can there.QuoteThanks, but If you dont have a garage, and your EV is outdoors in ambient -10degC, then its going to take a lot of electricity to heat all that big battery upQuoteThanks, but fuel cells are much smaller and lighter than EV batteries, so easier and cheaper to handle, easier to recycle...easier to take out of a hydrogen car and replace.QuoteThanks, but google doesnt show stats yet for how many battery EVs suffered battery_invalidation due to rogue cell.I once worked in a place that was trying to develop a way of switching a rogue cell out of a big battery pack......its no easy thing to do...the Battery_EV industry certainly hasnt solved this issue yet. It will need to solve it, if Hydrogen/Fuel cell cars are to be knocked out of the equation.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2021, 11:02:19 pm
content: Hydrogen isn't particularly efficient when you think about the amount of energy required to separate, compress, refrigerate, transport and dispense it. See the graph:https://theconversation.com/hydrogen-cars-wont-overtake-electric-vehicles-because-theyre-hampered-by-the-laws-of-science-139899We're going to have a lot more battery charging stations then hydrogen refueling stations here in California. The State is funding 200 hydrogen stations but 250,000 battery stations. And that's not counting private enterprise. We already have a lot of commercial (for pay) charging stations and many public buildings have free charging for employees.https://www.cnbc.com/2019/02/21/musk-calls-hydrogen-fuel-cells-stupid-but-tech-may-threaten-tesla.htmlI have been driving EVs (Chevy Spark EV and Chevy Bolt) for the past 8 years and I like them a lot. The Spark EV had more than 400 ft-lbs of torque putting it solidly in the 'muscle car' category. They tamed things down for the Bolt and later Spark EVs. High performance car, low performance driver, doesn't always end well, I guess.For my simple needs, the 120V charger is adequate and requires no installation.

author: Faringdon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2021, 11:12:32 pm
content: QuoteThanks, i'll conceed that point straight away...theres loads of space in California....everybody probably has a driveway, or loads of space nearby to put charge points if they dont have a driveway. But look at places like Harehills in Leeds UK, even the Mill Road region of Cambridge UK.(the above is probably the only text block ever written that mentions both "California" and "Harehills" in the same paragraph..no offence to either location meant)QuoteThats a good report, but the energy associated with the production of EV batteries is a lot more than that associated with the production of fuel cells.Also, the intensity of labour required to break down big heavy EV batteries for recycling means the west will struggle to handle large uptake of battery EVs.Also, that report, at the bottom says carbon footprint of battery_EV vs Hydrogen_EV is similar if both are charged up with renewable energy.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2021, 11:23:44 pm
content: Chevy is recalling the Bolt for battery issues to the extent that they are even buying cars back because to prevent battery fires, the range needs to be reduced a lot. I am expecting a complete replacement within the next year and a new battery warranty for some long period of time. Not as big a deal as the Takata air bag issue or the Volkswagon false testing procedure but still expensive.https://www.chevrolet.com/electric/bolt-recallIt's not a perfect world...

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2021, 11:29:08 pm
content: Quote from: Faringdon on November 11, 2021, 11:12:32 pmIt's my understanding that each cell is reasonable in size and weight. The Lithium will be quite valuable. I haven't heard of a mass replacement happening yet (other than the Bolt issue above) and I don't see why the Gigafactories can't get the labor input down to something like car manufacturing. There will be a lot of machine assistance.https://www.tesla.com/gigafactoryThere is a plant going up in the UK and even Boris Johnson is in on the act:https://www.theguardian.com/business/2021/oct/25/uk-battery-gigafactory-electric-car-sunderland-envision-nissan

author: Faringdon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2021, 11:35:19 pm
content: Thanks, those Gigafactories are all about battery manufacture...breaking battery packs down for recycling will be a lot more labour intensive, since you are having to break up all those substantial high current connections from each cell to the pack.I worked in a company that was trying to develop some way of interconnecting cells more dis-connectable-friendly because of the huge problem of disconnecting cells which have very solid high current connections to the pack. Its a real problem for the Battery_EV industry...they havent got it properly worked out yet.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2021, 11:42:06 pm
content: Quote from: Faringdon on November 11, 2021, 11:12:32 pmThere are neighborhoods in the US where you would be tempted to stay in the car with the doors locked.You're right, I have a 4 car garage that I should be using as a wood shop. I just haven't gotten started with the conversion (after 6 years). The charger stays in the garage and the cord snakes out under the door and is protected by some rubber weather seal.Chevrolet recommends leaving the Bolt outside and the weather here is 'temperate' so it's no big deal. GM will get it sorted out, I'm not worried. I like the car!

author: Nusa
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2021, 12:26:58 am
content: Quote from: Faringdon on November 11, 2021, 09:58:39 pmYour premise is demonstrably false without even digesting the rest of what you wrote. I know it's not true, you should know it's not true, and while a couple hydrogen models exist for sale, they are a truly tiny portion of the market.Hydrogen EV's have a very small market share, and I see no signs of getting even close to 25% this decade, never mind the lack of infrastructure to support it outside of centralized fleet vehicles. By comparison, electric EV now has a practical charging network in major markets.Any commentary about access to power in dense urban conditions applies nearly equally to all technologies....even gasoline. The answer for those people is simply that they don't fill up at home, they find somewhere else to do it.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2021, 12:30:35 am
content: Fuel cells are an attractive alternative to conventional batteries. But...One big issue with hydrogen is, as already mentioned, producing, or rather, extracting it is not energy-efficient.Another issue is possibly safety. It requires extremely sturdy tanks, and potential risks are not all pretty.As they are now though, EV batteries don't seem like a very sustainable approach. So it's not ideal either.In either cases (as hydrogen production requires electricity), electricity generation will become a bottleneck, and until we finally have "clean", sustainable and abundant electricity, we are just displacing the pollution.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2021, 01:15:33 am
content: Rolls Royce (UK) has come up with a small scale nuclear reactor that can get around many of the hurdles of actually building such a thing at the site. The bits and pieces are manufactured and partially assembled in a factory and transported to the site for final assembly. A site is just 4 acres.These plants are about 1/3 the size of a conventional nuke plant so they are more easily sited.An interesting idea because, among other things, quality control is primarily at the factory. The design can be preapproved and permitting will be a lot faster.https://www.datacenterdynamics.com/en/news/rolls-royce-gets-funding-for-small-nuclear-reactors-in-the-uk/We should learn from the Texas debacle: Renewables aren't reliables! Solar and wind can fail in a spectacular way and, lacking a grid intertie, Texas was left without power for up to 17 days:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021_Texas_power_crisis

author: Nusa
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2021, 01:32:43 am
content: Quote from: rstofer on November 12, 2021, 01:15:33 amYes, although ALL the usual forms of energy failed at the consumer level during that crisis. No natural gas, no electricity, no gasoline (retail pumps require electricity), no charging stations for your EV's (ditto, at least once the local batteries were exhausted). The lucky ones had older houses with functional fireplaces, assuming they could find enough stuff to burn. The even luckier ones actually had proper cold-weather gear to wear.

author: ejeffrey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2021, 02:01:26 am
content: Quote from: rstofer on November 12, 2021, 01:15:33 amAll the Texas debacle proved is that if you don't winterize your grid it can be taken down by winter weather, and if you don't interconnect your grid to anyone else you can't get power in a regional emergency. The "renewables aren't reliable" angle on the Texas emergency is 100% BS and easily shown because the natural gas infrastructure also failed while wind power in Iowa works fine in winter.That's not too say that there aren't availability problems with renewables but that had nothing to do with what happened in Texas. That entire story was a PR stunt to distract from the other failures.

author: Nusa
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2021, 02:32:24 am
content: Lack of winterization is right, but not entirely BS. Renewable sources also need winterization measures. That's cost-cutting policy and/or operator error, not a technology error.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2021, 04:02:22 am
content: Quote from: rstofer on November 11, 2021, 11:02:19 pmMy friend has a Spark, he got a good deal on it but he gets screwed by the licensing fee since the state claims it's worth almost 3 times what he paid for it. Amazing little car though, in terms of acceleration off the line it's one of the faster cars I've been in.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2021, 05:08:57 am
content: I would say the best solution for now is plug in hybrid - you get the benefits of EVs for shorter trips without having the problems EVs have for longer trips. Next step is to make the engine run on biofuel so longer trips can also be "environmentally friendly".Quote from: Nusa on November 12, 2021, 01:32:43 amA large part of the Texas energy crisis could have been prevented if they had programs that paid people to disconnect from the grid and run on backup, as well as programs to reward greatly cutting down on usage. I had a setup to tap backup power from my car but didn't use it last February since it was way cheaper to charge backup batteries from the grid when it was up, even though that contributed to the problem. I'd imagine there would be a lot more investment in backup power sources if there's a chance of getting paid to use it.There is one energy source that didn't fail, and that's home solar with backup - just brush off the snow and it's up and running. As far as I know, there's still only two significant manufacturers - SMA and MPP - that offer daytime backup without batteries. I'd imagine there would be a lot more if that concept were more well known.

author: BrianHG
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2021, 05:11:02 am
content: A new plus for hydrogen coming:

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2021, 05:49:18 am
content: Quote from: NiHaoMike on November 12, 2021, 05:08:57 amThose "problems" are already mostly solved, it is not hard to get a full EV now that does 300 miles on a charge and can have a substantial amount of charge added in 10 minutes. For longer trips there are hybrids and conventional ICE powered cars, since most families have more than one car it's pretty easy to have an EV and a regular car or hybrid, or just rent a car for the occasional trips. Most people don't take road trips very often, I haven't done it since I was in my 20s.

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2021, 06:17:49 am
content: I miscalculated once and ran out of gas. I walked to the gas station with a 2 gallon jug, filled it, and walked back to my car. That 2 gallons would take me 50+ miles, within the distance to the next gas station.AAA (USA's largest motor club for road side assistance) would have come with a gallon or two of gas if I was members and called for assistance.I think AAA (or the likes) has the capacity to carry a fuel cell should they decide to do so. They usually come in a small pick-up with other equipment, some including a generator for starter-battery and jumping. I doubt they would be able to come with large enough a generator to charge up your car for another 20 to 50 miles in short duration. In USA mid-west States, finding a common gas station in the middle of night (1am to 6am) can be iffy within 50 miles. I doubt charging stations will be more available than common gas stations any time soon.I think the lack of an easily portable energy source is a huge disadvantage. In that context, fuel cell at least have some hope, EV's that is plug-in charging only has much less hope...

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2021, 06:53:52 am
content: I don't think that would be difficult at all. The only EV I've lived with for any length of time was a Tesla Model Y, it could charge from the basic charge cable at a rate of 15 miles of range per hour from a 240V 32A circuit, that could be done even with a cheap consumer 8 or 10kW generator. Realistically a roadside assistance vehicle could easily have ~150kW diesel genset and a full fledged mobile Supercharger to give you ~50 miles of range in 10 minutes and the same genset could provide a selection of other charging standards. This is really not that difficult of a problem.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2021, 10:16:57 am
content: Old EV batteries, with too lower capacity to be used in cars, can be repurposed for storing energy from the power grid.Renewables can be fairly reliable. It depends on the location. Hydroelectric power can be very reliable. In Western Europe, wind is fairly reliable, especially in winter, but there needs to be enough turbines, over a large enough area, connected to the same grid.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2021, 10:52:10 am
content: Quote from: james_s on November 12, 2021, 06:53:52 amNow calculate the difference in cost between a 150kW generator compared to a jerry can and how that would reflect on your AAA subscription cost.@Faringdon: KPMG publishes an automotive outlook every year which shows customer and technical trends for the automotive industry. It answers several of your questions:https://automotive-institute.kpmg.de/GAES2020/downloads/global_automotive_executive_survey_2020.pdf

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 12, 2021, 11:41:30 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on November 12, 2021, 10:52:10 amExcept you cannot use a jerry can for hydrogen filling. It will be quite complicated and expensive system. Nor you necessarily need a 150kW generator. 10-20 minutes of charging at level 2 speed most likely will give you enough range to drive to the closest charging station, unless you are in the middle of nowhere. Or just tow it to the closest charging station. Nor you need a generator at all. 10-20kWh portable battery will do the job. Or you don't even need a portable battery. If roadside assistance vehicle is an EV, it can output power from its own battery.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2021, 11:49:20 am
content: Quote from: Rick Law on November 12, 2021, 06:17:49 amIn the UK, the AA, one of the major breakdown companies is already using a big alternator on the van's engine for EV emergency recharging. I don't recall offhand the power rating.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2021, 11:53:25 am
content: Quote from: james_s on November 12, 2021, 06:53:52 amNow calculate the difference in cost between a 150kW generator compared to a jerry can and how that would reflect on your AAA subscription cost.Why do you think it would need anything like that power ? EVs are pretty good at predicting range, so for the occasional user who runs out, it doesn't matter if it takes 30+ mins to charge enough to get to the nearest charge point. 10-20kW would be more than adequate. And once breakdown vans go electric ( or at least PHEV), they can just charge from their battery.

author: richard.cs
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2021, 12:50:34 pm
content: Quote from: Rick Law on November 12, 2021, 06:17:49 amEvidence so far is that most EV breakdowns are things like damaged tires. If running out of energy is a small fraction of the total breakdowns then it's no big deal if they have to be handled in a less convenient way like towing to a charger (which may be quicker than a possibly-slow portable charger). In any case electricity has the advantage that it'severywhere, I am fairly convinced that should I run out of electricity somewhere in the UK I could knock on a couple of doors cap in hand and get enough electricity to get to a charger, possibly in exchange for beer money. I've done similar to get water for my petrol car after a coolant leak.Then there's the consideration that many modern engines, including most diesels, won't simply restart if you pour a jerry can in the tank. They need air bleeding out of the fuel system, and whilst not especially difficult this is beyond most drivers putting it in roadside assistance territory anyway.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2021, 12:56:26 pm
content: Quote from: richard.cs on November 12, 2021, 12:50:34 pmAnd there's always the lamppost + croc clips option...

author: richard.cs
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2021, 01:02:58 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on November 12, 2021, 12:56:26 pmAh, yes. What the military types like to call a "power of opportunity" cable.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2021, 01:09:53 pm
content: Hydrogen cars also struggle filling at below -10C.The problem is the hydrogen is transported as a refrigerated liquid, which creates cryo-hazards. In fact, a good hydrogen EV will take about 25-30 minutes to refill at -10C ambient. The other concerning aspect is the cost of a typical refill station. Compressing hydrogen to cryogenic temperatures is not cheap, so most stations use a single compressor and storage plant. The issue is this compressor can only run so fast - typically it runs overnight during down-times - and for the units in Southern California for instance the rate is about one car every 20 to 30 minutes if the station is busy. Not the so-called 5 minute refuel. Look the queues that Mirai owners are experiencing. They're tethered to these stations, no other way around it, whereas at least an EV owner can run an extension lead in most cases!It is also the case that -10C is not a common temperature for most of the world. Some places experience it during winter, others do have the disfortune of experiencing it for longer, but regardless there are places like the UK where even going below 0C is uncommon. EVs can still charge in -10C weather, the charge rate is just reduced and the efficiency is reduced somewhat by using the battery heater.For charging on the street, a typical EV with a 40kWh battery will need to charge about once a week to cover commuting uses. So we do not need a density of chargers to match the number of cars. What we do need is dedicated on-street parking bays with EV chargers, about 10-20% of all spaces on a given street should consist of these. About 50% of homes in the UK have access to off-street parking as well, so they can use their driveway or parking bay as they see fit. We'll also need EV chargers at major destinations for people to 'graze' - already many supermarkets and offices have small numbers of chargers but this will need to increase to ca. 20% of all parking bays, perhaps more. This will allow people to charge up while their car is otherwise unused, without having home charging options.

author: sandalcandal
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 12, 2021, 02:29:24 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on November 12, 2021, 11:49:20 amIs it this one?https://originalads.co.uk/charge-pod/I haven't heard them meeting their advertised spec of 10kW from their add-on alternator.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2021, 02:35:23 pm
content: The one I saw was 3kW. If you need to drive 15 miles at 3.5miles/kWh to get to the next charger, then you need 4.3kWh of energy - so over an hour of charging. Not sure 3kW will cut it. I'd like to see 20kW and CCS/Chademo capability. Maybe buffered with an onboard battery pack charged at 3-5kW from the main battery.It's easy to do if the van is already a PHEV or hybrid, a lot harder if just a standard 2L diesel.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2021, 02:41:02 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on November 12, 2021, 01:09:53 pmNo. You'd need 30% to 40% of the parking spaces AND solve the problem that people don't occupy a charging point unnecessary. Are you going to wake up at 3:00 in the morning to move your car so the beighbours can charge theirs? The reality is that the current BEVs are not yet evolved to a point where they are real alternatives for cars that run on fuel or hydrogen. It takes another revolution in battery technology to increase the capacity / weight ratio and charge speed. The only charging infrastructure that makes sense financially due to resource sharing is to have superchargers like/at gas stations and charge there within a few minutes. Charging at home / in the street is a temporary crutch and will dissapear again after 10 to 20 years from now.Quote from: tom66 on November 12, 2021, 02:35:23 pmTow charging is a much easier solution. The cars from Rivian support this AFAIK (I've seen it being done using a prototype in a documentary). But nothing beats a jerry can with gas or diesel where it comes to simplicity.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 12, 2021, 02:45:18 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on November 12, 2021, 02:41:02 pmYou conveniently forget there is no jerry can for filling Hydrogen. FWIW Hydrogen cars did not evolve to be a viable alternative to anything, be it ICE or BEV.QuoteIt's the best and the most convenient way do do it. You don't need to go anywhere to charge it. Why would you go out of your way to get to the charging station if there is no need to do so?

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2021, 03:09:02 pm
content: @Wraper: You are making the mistake assuming that everyone has a driveway AND wants to plug in the car every time they park it / enjoy unplugging it before use.

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2021, 03:18:48 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on November 12, 2021, 02:41:02 pmIf our government had been pro-active and nationalized the fibre installation and combined it with charging installation even 100% would have been relatively cheap. If the sidewalk is opened up any way, installing a power cable and concrete pits every 5 meter with a power connection into which charging points can be installed at some future date costs basically bugger all. Then you can slowly build out the charging infrastructure, all the way upto 100%, just by lifting pavers and putting a charger in the pit.Shoulda, woulda, coulda.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2021, 03:45:44 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on November 12, 2021, 02:41:02 pmDon't know where you get 30-40%, even 20% would be on the high end.Average odo for someone in Europe is 12,000 km/year (7,500 mi/year.) Average EV gets about 4-5 km/kWh, say 4 km/kWh to be a pessimist. An on-street charger can manage 7kW. So for a year's charging you need 3,000 kWh or 428 hours of charging. There are about 8,700 hours in a year, so the average EV needs to spend about 5% of its life plugged in. And since cars spend about 95% of their time parked, it seems crazy to say that there wouldn't be a time in that 95% where the car could not be charged (and only half of those need to be at public chargers, because the other half will charge their majority of electrons at home.)The big challenge is making sure everyone doesn't hog the resources e.g. at night, so you'd want to scale the resource by 2x or so, to account for peak time usage (getting home at 6pm and looking for a charger.) Plus you'd want workplace chargers, supermarket chargers, gym chargers, etc. so that people can opportunity-charge whenever their car is parked up. The 12,000km/year usage would use about 8.2kWh/day, so Monday-Sunday uses 41kWh. Are we really saying in that time that no one could spend 5 hours of that week with their car hooked up? I don't believe it. All a matter of making sure that people can opportunity-charge.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2021, 03:47:11 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on November 12, 2021, 03:09:02 pmOddly, that's exactly what I do and have done so for the last 8 years. A partially charged battery is, well, partially charged - kind of range limiting.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2021, 03:59:46 pm
content: I have yet to see an EV alongside the road with a dead battery. Yes, range anxiety is a real thing but it can be handled. I recently gave away my Chevy Silverado (pickup truck) and now the two of us share the EV. Somehow, it all works out. There is something of a requirement that a retired EE drive an EV. There's so much magic in these vehicles!Covid has had some offshoots: Everything we need is delivered. Fast food, groceries, beer... The delivery charge is worth it to me just to avoid having to walk through some of the grocery mega-stores. Even Costco delivers and that's usually a really big deal. Worth every dime to have somebody else fill the cart, pass through checkout and deliver it to my doorstep.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2021, 04:22:20 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on November 12, 2021, 03:45:44 pmOpportunity charging at a supermarket or other public place also makes you a target for <insert something bad here>. I can see places of employment because many are behind fences but I'm certainly not going to charge right next to an ATM machine.Were I still working, I would have been the guy building out multiple charging stations for our employees. As we were essentially an engineering division of some 10,000 employees (far less in later years), how many stations would I need? 10% of current headcount? We had enough incoming power (115kV 28MVA easily) but I would have had to dig up a lot of pavement to get the 12kV over to a dedicated substation (or several) to provide 240V for the chargers. It would have been a monster project but the company would have just considered it a cost of doing business. Charging would have been free. I don't know what it might cost but I know I would take a flogging every day for a) it isn't done yet and b) it costs too much. Such is the life of a project manager.I suppose we could play 'musical plugs' and require employees to share time on the charger but these folks cost a LOT of money. We wouldn't even consider it!All of that charging would be during 'on peak' hours...

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2021, 04:44:13 pm
content: Many people are currently using EVs. The shorter range isn't a problem for many and I imagine it's something one would be acutely aware of, which would explain why stranded EVs, with flat batteries isn't a common sight.Anyway, do we really need another EV vs ICE thread? This topic has been done to death several times.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2021, 04:59:26 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on November 12, 2021, 03:45:44 pmThat is what the Dutch government is aiming for: One charging point for every 2 to 3 cars.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2021, 05:18:01 pm
content: Quote from: Zero999 on November 12, 2021, 04:44:13 pmNo, we don't. I thought it was about hydrogen fuel cells.

author: Jester
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2021, 05:28:31 pm
content: A bit off topic, I get a kick out of the endless naysayers regarding electric cars. If we focused on the problems during the “ Let’s go to the moon “ phase of development, we would have never made it off the launchpad.Meanwhile Tesla cars are everywhere (both of my neighbour's drive one), and Musk is the richest guy on the planet.I have a good chuckle every time I read one of these “it’s not possible, doomed for failure “ scenarios.

author: nfmax
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2021, 05:43:02 pm
content: Quote from: Jester on November 12, 2021, 05:28:31 pmNot only that, but at the same time as selling all those Teslas, Mr Musk is within a year of two of getting a rocket of his own to the actual moon!

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2021, 06:12:30 pm
content: Quote from: nfmax on November 12, 2021, 05:43:02 pmCan you imagine the PR from using a Tesla as a Moon Rover! Hang a few solar panels on the roof and it's good to go! There's plenty of sun hours. Yes, they would need to solve the temperature problem.Whenever I hear the word "can't", I point the speaker back to July 20, 1969 when Neil Armstrong first stepped on the Moon! There is no such thing as "can't".

author: nfmax
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2021, 06:20:28 pm
content: Quote from: rstofer on November 12, 2021, 06:12:30 pmWhen Mr Musk launched his Tesla Roadster into space, I was most impressed that it didn't actually fall apart from the launch vehicle vibration. Clearly, cars are much better made today than they used to be. Can you imagine what might have happened to a Morris Minor launched on a Saturn V?

author: Faringdon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2021, 06:22:23 pm
content: QuoteThas a good point, i looked into it, and it seems to be because having the water in the fuel cell ice up causes major problems...https://www.nytimes.com/2004/12/12/automobiles/fuel-cells-in-the-deep-freeze.html..however, the above article seems to suggest that they think they might be able to solve this , "might".

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2021, 06:26:43 pm
content: Quote from: Faringdon on November 12, 2021, 06:22:23 pmThat is a 17 year old articleToyota's Mirai works down to -30 deg. Chttps://newsroom.toyota.eu/the-new-toyota-mirai/

author: Faringdon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2021, 06:31:30 pm
content: Thanks, its difficult to find articles accurately detailing what is the cold weather performance of hydrogen cars. (filling time, drive-ability in cold weather, etc)...woops, just seen your article, ..ok...it looks like cold weather refilling for HEV's is now solved (?)...and it can be done just as fats as at say 20 degc ambient?Google also doesnt give stats for percentage of BEV batteries that get "rogue" cell.If this is too high, it will be a major downer for BEVs.And for those out-of-service-life BEV batteries that get used for the grid storage systems.....what's the rate (total stats) at which they get "rogue" cell?....i bet its high.Another downer for BEVs, is the lithium and cobalt for them is in countries which are a tad unstable (except Australia, but Australia may not have it available for long).And how long will the supplies actually be available?....the mines might get depleted.I reckon lithium supply fears is one of the reasons that Japan has totally committed to Hydrogen cars.Recycling it out of used BEV batteries is a situation which has yet to be proven possible on a super large scale. (reasons given in post #7 above)

author: ejeffrey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2021, 06:38:59 pm
content: Quote from: Rick Law on November 12, 2021, 06:17:49 amThis is a disadvantage but I think it is relatively minor. Running out of gas on roads in the US is extremely rare these days. It is absolutely not something we should be optimizing for in passenger vehicles.The easiest solution and the one that most people will probably use is just towing. Certainly that is what would happen today. Tow the car to a service station or the nearest place with a power outlet / charger. Yes, that means you have to dispatch a tow truck rather than just a guy in a pickup truck, but it's really no big deal. AAA dispatches plenty of tow trucks for other breakdowns already.If it were a common problem it wouldn't be hard to fit roadside assistance trucks with 10 kWhr batteries they can give you enough charge to get where you are going. The charge part will take a bit longer than dumping a couple gallons of gas in the tank, but still less than the amount of time you waited for assistance. I doubt mobile chargers like this will catch on, but as EVs get a larger market share maybe?

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2021, 07:01:40 pm
content: Quote from: Faringdon on November 12, 2021, 06:31:30 pmTechnology is progressing fast. Articles over 2 or 3 years old are likely to be outdated already.QuoteThat is not a real problem in today's EV batteries. Typically cells are tested / matched before they are used to assemble a battery. On top of that modern EVs are optimised to maximise battery life by using active cooling / heating systems and limiting charge / discharge currents. But still there is a chance a battery pack goes bad which easely could lead to a car being scrap because the cost of a replacement pack is higher compared to the value of the vehicle. This largely depends on how the packs are constructed. Some manufacturers use modular packs in which it is possible to swap out a small number of cells which greatly reduces the cost of repairing a battery pack.QuoteIMHO that is a pipe dream. A Li-ion cell shows exponential wear so using it for grid storage gives a very poor capacity to weight ratio and you'll also need to match used cells and somehow keep quality constant with a supply of cells which vary in quality and chemistry. On top of that you need to disassemble the packs in a way you can recover the cells in a usefull state; in most packs the cells are welded to nickel strips / plates. Recycling to recover the raw materials is a much saner approach.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2021, 07:22:24 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on November 12, 2021, 07:01:40 pmAnd yet Australia has a huge battery storage system - 150 MW/194 MWhWe need a bunch of those systems in California.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hornsdale_Power_ReserveIt's my understanding that the Lithium is still valuable in depleted cells. That's important because we're not knee deep in Lithium.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2021, 07:31:53 pm
content: Quote from: rstofer on November 12, 2021, 07:22:24 pmBut those systems are using new cells. Not used ones from EVs. Faringdon was asking about using used cells from EVs for grid storage.

author: ejeffrey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2021, 08:30:42 pm
content: When talking about recycling or reuse, its important to remember that the rate of sale of new EVs completely dwarfs the number going off the road due to age. The oldest Tesla model S is less than 10 years old and most of them are still going strong unless they have been wrecked. There are older EVs than that but non that sold in large volumes and of course the number of cars Tesla is producing now is way more than back then too. Aside from some cars like the early Nissan Leafs that had undersized and passively cooled battery packs that died quickly, there just aren't a lot of EV batteries available to recycle or reuse. So there isn't a huge commercial incentive to improve that technology. In another 10 years there will be a lot more available EOL batteries and a lot more incentive use them efficiently, but it will take at least another decade after that before recycled materials can be a significant fraction of new battery production.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2021, 08:38:22 pm
content: In the Earth's crust, lithium has a higher abundance (0.0017%) than, say, lead (0.001%) or tin (0.00022%), but far below silicon (27%).Seehttps://periodictable.com/Properties/A/CrustAbundance.an.html

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2021, 10:13:19 pm
content: Right now at least there is a strong market for used EV batteries from wrecked cars. People are using them for conversions of older cars and for home energy storage. It will actually be nice as that market expands, there are all kinds of things I can use large banks of lithium ion batteries for.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2021, 10:17:10 pm
content: Quote from: ejeffrey on November 12, 2021, 06:38:59 pmTrue, I ran out of gas once 20 years ago because I was driving an old truck that had a dead spot in the fuel sender, it certainly isn't something that happens very often. I think it's probably much more common for cars to break down due to mechanical failures than to run out of gas. It really should be easier to avoid in an EV too since most people are going to plug in to charge every night rather than doing what most people do with gas cars and procrastinating until they are nearly empty. I don't know anyone who goes to a gas station every day to top up.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2021, 10:28:17 pm
content: Quote from: rstofer on November 12, 2021, 03:47:11 pmThat's what every single one of the EV drivers I know does too, some of them even plug it in at work because they can take advantage of that perk. It's a total non-issue, I don't know why he tries to make a mountain out of that mole hill every time. If EVs had been the norm for decades most people would balk at the idea of having to drive out of their way to a filling station and dispense gallons of smelly liquid into their car every time they need more energy. Why would you ever want to do that if there's any possible way you can fuel up at home? Can you imagine anyone wanting a liquid fueled smartphone that they have to take to a store every couple of weeks to fill up with fuel instead of just plugging it in on the nightstand every night when they go to bed? I find the thought hilarious because virtually nobody would trade the convenience of charging their phone at home for a week or two of run time if it were feasible to do. It's just so easy to plug in, it's no burden at all.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2021, 10:35:21 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on November 12, 2021, 11:53:25 amA jerry can is not much use with an electric vehicle though is it? I'm not arguing that this is needed, I'm only saying that it's a simple engineering solution if somebody does decide it's necessary. I don't really think a genset would be all that expensive in terms of the cost on your membership, a truck with a 150kW genset wouldn't be any more expensive than a tow truck. Now I think a tow truck is probably a more practical solution, but a generator truck is certainly possible, and large generators are not hard to come by. I could drive over to the rental place a couple of miles from me and rent one on a trailer right now if I needed to.https://www.sunbeltrentals.com/equipment/detail/1611/0090120/150kw-diesel-generator/Buying one outright is what, a few tens of thousands? That isn't much in terms of a business expense, even the non-tow-capable roadside assistance trucks are probably $100k equipped.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2021, 12:11:08 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on November 12, 2021, 06:26:43 pmWorks != is a good performer.Hydrogen vehicles still struggle to fuel when very cold - it's an unsolved problem with the technology.Meanwhile a Tesla EV with a preheated battery can supercharge just as fast at -10C ambient as it can at 40C ambient.Quote from: rstofer on November 12, 2021, 04:22:20 pmCan't see an AC charge while getting cash out being worthwhile (what, 250Wh, for 5 minutes at most?) But at a supermarket you might be there for 45 minutes - 1 hour every week (depends how efficient you are I suppose.) And I don't see why charging would make you any more of a risk, especially given it's more and more common. I guess a moron could try cutting the live electrical cable. Let's see how that goes for them.Quote from: rstofer on November 12, 2021, 04:22:20 pmWorkplace charging is a good example of somewhere where 2-3kW chargers are perfectly adequate. Cars are typically parked up for between 8-10 hours per day, so even 2kW would get you 16kWh and for a five-day week, that's nigh on 80kWh - few people would use that much for their commute.It's my understanding that many old car parks in the USA had 'block heater' supplies in the colder states, at least at one point. I think EVSE supplies in workplaces could be like this - 115V 15/20A single phase (and in Europe, 230V 10A.) Unfortunately, regulations mean that EVSEs are a lot more expensive than just supplying power, what are you gonna do... but, despite this, they're still much cheaper than the actual cost of installing the parking space in the first place. (An average 'space' in a tarmacked parking lot is ca. $8,000 -- so a $400 EVSE isn't really going to blow the budget.)

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2021, 12:38:10 am
content: Quote from: tom66 on November 13, 2021, 12:11:08 amAnd then the tax collector comes around and fines the employer for handing out freebies to the employees. In the NL 'free' EV charging for employees is an administrative nightmare.

author: not1xor1
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2021, 09:31:52 am
content: Hydrogen vehicles is mainly a matter of greenwashing. They get hydrogen from methane, so why not using just methane as fuel?Taking into account the energy involved in producing and storing hydrogen and fuel cells, methane cars would pollute much less.On the other side EVs are rapidly improving and costs are getting lower and lower while new battery technologies are appearing (like Na-Ion batteries).Unlike fuel cells, in future EVs batteries might also give energy back to the grid integrating with solar and wind energy, taking excess production and giving it back when there is no wind or sun.Electricity is everywhere while an hydrogen grid is nowhere.Hydrogen, when coming from solar of wind, might have a future as a partial or total replacement for methane in the methane grid.IMHO its use in vehicles is a dead end.

author: Faringdon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2021, 10:04:35 am
content: QuoteThanks, i believe this has been tried, but from what i hear, its not the way forward for the solar/wind/battery world. To suceed with a solar/wind/battery business, you really need to use high quality , new, matched batteries. Its a long story why..but has to do with payback times etc etc . (unless of course, its for a hobbyist who wants to do it for fun)QuoteThanks, i think there's other ways to produce hydrogen...and if those ways are powered 100% by renewables, then hydrogen is just as eco friendly as BEVs.QuoteThanks, this to me is one of the mains points for HydrogenQuoteThanks, im trying to find more on this...it does seem that if the water in the fuel cell turns to ice, then its a major downer for that fuel cell.....then again, some of the newer fuel cell stacks are small and easy to replace if say their pre-heater (or whatever) fails and they do get ice damaged.

author: nfmax
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2021, 10:14:27 am
content: AFAIK most hydrogen fuel cells still use platinum-group metal catalysts, though research is underway to replace them. But as it is, If I had a hydrogen car, I would be very wary of chavs with cordless angle grinders, given how prevalent catalytic converter theft has become. Don't want to get too close to Darwin in action, either

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2021, 11:14:16 am
content: Quote from: Faringdon on November 13, 2021, 10:04:35 amOnly if there's literally nothing else you can do with that electricity. Electron-to-wheel efficiency of hydrogen is still only about 30% that of BEV

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2021, 11:45:58 am
content: Quote from: not1xor1 on November 13, 2021, 09:31:52 amNow calculate the price per kWh for doing that. Storing electricity in Li-ion gets expensive quickly especially when using a battery which isn't designed for that purpose. The power company would need to pay you tens of dollar / euro cents per kWh to cover your costs and someone else has to come up with that money. After a couple of hours it becomes more economical to use hydrogen as a storage medium. The worst mistake to make here is to focus solely on efficiency. Think about how much a mains adapter would cost if it where 99.9% efficient. It just doesn't make sense from a financial point of view.QuoteActually there is. Especially if there is a natural gas grid. In the NL the natural gas infrastructure is being modified for use with hydrogen for a while now. The pipes are already suitable for hydrogen and whenever connecting hardware (valves, bends, couplings, etc) need to be replaced they are replaced by models that are suitable for hydrogen.

author: Faringdon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2021, 02:07:54 pm
content: QuoteThanks, i will look into how much of this is needed, as platinium is very rare.In any case, if both BEV's and HEV's are reliant on rare materials, then it still means its a good idea to not be too dependent on either BEV's or HEV's, ..but that a mixture of both is needed. Platinum being rare, therefore does not, IMHO, mean that HEV's should be discarded.(i must admit i dont know how much platinum goes into a fuel cell, apparently its something like 50 grams?)Also, i am not convinced that either platinium or lithium , or cobalt, are really rare, maybe its just that we as a human race havent yet spent much time looking for them?The followinghttps://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/bosch-ev-fuel-cells-less-platinum-report/actually says that Bosch's new prototype fuel cells use less platinum , 3 to 6 grams.A BEV battery contains a whopping 10Kg of Lithium...thats a lot of a metal that is rare, and where the worlds deposits of it could get bought up by a single company/country.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2021, 03:01:34 pm
content: See my reply #55 above: lithium is not terribly rare.Fuel cells use platinum, which is rare, but it does not react chemically with the fuel, therefore thin layers work.In batteries, the metalsdoreact with the electrolyte and bulk quantities are required.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2021, 03:13:54 pm
content: Quote from: not1xor1 on November 13, 2021, 09:31:52 amMany years ago, there was a movement to get vehicles powered by natural gas. Some utility companies bought into it as did many municipal bus systems. The public never did and that's why it is nearly impossible to find a filling station. I see fuel cells going the same way. Municipalities and utilities will buy into it (because they are forced to) but not much else. You can see that pattern in the California initiative to install 250 hydrogen stations and 250,000 battery charging stations.As to powering a house with a pickup truck: Ford is already doing that:https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/2022-ford-f-150-lightning-electric-pickup-intelligent-backup-power-house/I think they are leaving out a few details like not back-feeding the grid. I'm almost in the market for a new truck, maybe I'll look into this idea.

author: Faringdon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2021, 04:29:58 pm
content: QuoteThanks, from that link Lithium is 1700e-6 % of the earths crust.Platinium is 3.6e-6% of the earths crust.A BEV needs 10,000g of lithiumA HEV needs 4.5g of platinum (according to Bosch)It also seems that its easier to recycle platinum out of a dead fuel cell, than to recycle all that 10kG of lithium out of a dead BEV battery(?)...So its pretty even result for HEV and BEV here....thats assuming that the following link has the percentages accurate, which it may not(?) since up untll recently, lithium and platinum havent been required in bulk , so were possibly not investigated much?https://periodictable.com/Properties/A/CrustAbundance.al.html

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 13, 2021, 04:42:09 pm
content: Quote from: Faringdon on November 13, 2021, 04:29:58 pmAccording to Bosch for what? Catalytic converter? HEV is not a hydrogen powered vehicle. Fuel cells require 10-20 times more platinum.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2021, 04:56:14 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on November 13, 2021, 04:42:09 pmNot according to the latest developments where the amount of platinum required for the fuel cell approaches the amount needed for a regular catalytic converter for a gasoline car. Actually, according to the reports I've read: the less platinum used in the hydrogen <-> water converters, the more efficient it is.In the end it doesn't make sense to compare how rare materials are. It comes down to cost of mining, processing and the amount needed which are very different. For a good comparison you'd need to make a detailed analysis. On top of that you can also add more or less emphasis on political stability and the work environment for the miners.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2021, 04:59:35 pm
content: Quote from: Faringdon on November 13, 2021, 04:29:58 pmChemistry is not my subject, but why would it more difficult to recycle lithium out of a dead battery than to extract metallic lithium from the lithium salts that are mined to produce lithium?

author: ejeffrey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2021, 05:01:41 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on November 13, 2021, 11:45:58 amA few programs to upgrade distribution is not the same this as hydrogen being everywhere, or even much of anywhere.While 100% hydrogen is claimed as a goal, most of those efforts are blended with 10-20% hydrogen for combustion purposes. This is relatively easy to do although it is currently a considerably worse environmental profile than straight natural gas even with "green hydrogen" it's fine for an r&d demo but deploying 20% hydrogen blends today would set decarbonization programs back years.You can't use 20% hydrogen for fuel cell vehicles so until these pipelines go 100% hydrogen they can't be used for that purpose. That is a lot harder as 100% hydrogen is a much bigger explosion and fire risk and is incompatible with existing equipment. Given the rate of leaks from natural gas systems I'm very skeptical that hydrogen distribution to residential and light commercial properties will ever be practical although it is not impossible.Electricity on the other hand has been reliably delivered to hundreds of millions of houses and businesses for decades. So yes, hydrogen is currently nowhere.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2021, 05:49:51 pm
content: Quote from: ejeffrey on November 13, 2021, 05:01:41 pmIt is not a matter of a few programs and blending:https://ihsmarkit.com/research-analysis/the-netherlands-to-refit-borderstraddling-natural-gas-grid-for.htmlGasunie [is focusing] on the development of a pure hydrogen backbone for several reasons. Not only does the Netherlands have the opportunity to make a separate hydrogen backbone quite easily  using existing natural gas pipelines,

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2021, 07:00:09 pm
content: Quote from: rstofer on November 13, 2021, 03:13:54 pmWhen my dad worked for the Port of Seattle he said they had fleets of vehicles that ran off CNG. It works well for an operation that has a large enough fleet that they can have their own filling station on site but it wasn't enough of an improvement over gasoline for the infrastructure to pop up everywhere. I suspect you're right that the same thing will happen with hydrogen, if it is mandated, but generally I see it going nowhere. I've never seen a hydrogen filling station before in my life, as far as I know almost all of them that exist in this country are down in CA.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2021, 07:07:17 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on November 13, 2021, 12:38:10 amGive it a rest man, that's the stupidest argument yet. It's a trivial matter to pass legislation to completely eliminate that hurdle. Even here in the USA with our back-asswards broken politics something like that is easily solved. Of course it doesn't need to be solved here because it's already not an issue, certain employers have been offering free EV charging for around a decade. Do you seriously not have employee perks in your country? That's bizarre.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2021, 07:14:41 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on November 12, 2021, 10:13:19 pmThank PG&E's neglect to maintain their infrastructure, forcing customers to look at alternative energy. Shortly after that energy crisis began, several resellers of used EV batteries saw a big boost in demand. With solar and batteries getting cheaper, I would expect more and more customers in those areas deciding to go off grid rather than put up with expensive, unreliable power.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2021, 07:16:42 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on November 13, 2021, 07:07:17 pmNot tax free employee perks. Over here there are very strict limits on what employers can hand out for free and what counts as income. This legislation has been put in place to prevent employers paying employees with goods instead of money in order to evade taxes. This isn't trivial to change and you'd also need to think about how that is fair to people who come to work by bike or public transport. If you look at the big picture things are not simple.

author: Nusa
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2021, 07:18:52 pm
content: If you've been looking up HEV, realize that is the industry alphabet soup for Hybrid Electric Vehicle. No hydrogen involved. Which is an EV/ICE combination, typically with a much smaller and cheaper battery. Also the subset PHEV, which is Plug-in Hybrid Electric Vehicle.The correct term would be FCEV (Fuel Cell Electric Vehicle). Which doesn't have to be hydrogen, although those currently for sale are.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2021, 07:31:42 pm
content: Quote from: Nusa on November 13, 2021, 07:18:52 pmTrue. Ethanol for instance:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct-ethanol_fuel_cell

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2021, 09:13:20 pm
content: QuoteWhich means that whatever we've been told it will be, it will turn out to be the exact opposite, but only after lots of bluster and outright fibbing.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2021, 09:39:41 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on November 13, 2021, 07:00:09 pmBefore retiring, and thereafter before the pandemic, I made many business trips (and a couple of vacation trips) to Japan. As a pollution control, the taxicabs in Tokyo all used LP gas (although in less urban areas they were gasoline powered). Unfortunately, the tank took up much of the trunk space that could have been useful for big American luggage.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2021, 10:38:50 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on November 13, 2021, 07:16:42 pmPretty trivial in the UK.Certain things are not taxable as a benefit - like accommodation when needed for your job (i.e. oil workers, or a salesman taking a hotel overnight)Electric vehicle charging is included in that. It can be free or they can charge you at cost, but either way there's no cost for any benefit you get.I don't know the Dutch tax code, but I'm sure that they have exceptions for taxable benefits. Pasting "charging for electric vehicles" into that tax code seems hardly arduous.In any case at my old job I did have to pay for my EV charging. It didn't seem worthwhile to charge me - at about £10 a month - but it was seen as fair to the other employees who had to pay for their petrol and diesel. The accountant would just go down and read the electric meter for my 'station', each 'station' having its own, and I only had the key for #4, so I knew that was all the electricity I used. It was then deducted from my salary at the end of the month.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2021, 11:30:22 pm
content: QuoteElectric vehicle charging isn't anything like that! Unless, of course, you need to do it for your job, but traveling to and from work doesn't count.The thing about this is it seems to be a political thing to encourage EV use, much like once upon a time diesel was dead cheap, and they'd pay you to put up solar panels, etc. I suspect that at some point, presumably as tax from fossil fuels drops and EVs are the default buy for people, they will change their minds. Once they've figured out how to determine electricity usage they'll apply the appropriate tax rate. Until then it looks like a free mealBut only for those rich enough to be able to buy one. The poor will be stuck with highly-taxed fossil movers

author: Faringdon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 14, 2021, 12:00:19 am
content: Thanks, woops yes, i have been saying "HEV" when i meant "Hydrogen FCEV".IMHO, having a total reliance on Lithium, which may only be available in a few places which may get bought up by a single country/company, seems a bit dodgy.Also, Fuel cells seem easier to reclaim platinum from, than reclaiming lithium from big car batteries, where each cell is welded in.IMHO, reclaiming lithium from a big dead car battery sounds more difficult than actually extracting lithium from "Lithium ore".And 5 years down the line from now, how many BEV owners are going to be bringing their BEV in to the garage and saying, "ive got a rogue cell just come up, and my battery capacity is down by 40%" ?..We wont know till 5 years time.Also, IMHO, i reckon its easier to heat up a small fuel cell for -10degC operation, than heating up a big BEV car battery?

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 14, 2021, 04:36:28 am
content: Meanwhile,https://www.forbes.com/sites/mergermarket/2021/11/03/demand-for-metals-charges-up-lithium-ion-battery-recycling/?sh=230b09e36f43

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 14, 2021, 04:59:11 am
content: Quote from: dunkemhigh on November 13, 2021, 11:30:22 pmThey already screw you in my state if you drive an EV. Not only is the calculation for the annual licensing fee based on calculated value way, way off of true market value (like 300% in the case of the cheaper ones) but there is an additional $150 annual electric vehicle fee tacked on. For all the hot air our idiot governor spews about "green" stuff it is a real slap in the face that they turn around and punish anyone with an EV with exorbitant licensing fees.

author: Nusa
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 14, 2021, 10:53:03 am
content: Careful, hijacking into politics, especially if you start getting partisan or start calling real people names, is a great way to force moderators to act.But yes, states are struggling about the issue of road taxes build into fuel prices. Hybrids aren't much of an issue, but BEV's aren't paying those taxes in most cases. It's still being ignored in many places, but long-term the revenue plan clearly needs to change.

author: Nusa
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 14, 2021, 11:19:46 am
content: Quote from: Faringdon on November 14, 2021, 12:00:19 amYou're making a mountain out of a near-nothing. All you have to do to heat up a battery is to use it...both charging and discharging create heat. Thermal management is primarily there to get RID of heat in a BEV. Sure, it might be weaker for the first minutes, but it's a LARGE battery, you'll still get home. -10C (14F) is a common enough winter temperature for northern states in the US that this HAS met lots of real-world testing. -20C (-4F) is less common, but happens often enough in some areas to be well-tested as well.This applies to most battery technologies. Back in the 1970s, if a very cold lead-acid car battery was cranking weakly, one of the tricks was to turn on the headlights (still incandescent then, so they pulled a few amps) for a few minutes. Using the battery heated it up. Next attempt to crank the engine would be much stronger.Your li-ion battery in your smartphone is another example. Notice how it gets warm when you're making the phone work hard. Notice how it also gets warm when you're charging it.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 14, 2021, 12:42:24 pm
content: Quote from: Nusa on November 14, 2021, 10:53:03 amIndeed. In the Netherlands BEV / FCEV drivers are likely slapped with a extra based on distance travelled to compensate for the loss of tax revenue otherwise collected through fuel. This will probably happen around 2025 or so.

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 14, 2021, 02:32:42 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on November 13, 2021, 07:00:09 pmThere are LNG trucks and tank stations in my country (ie. cryogenic liquid natural gas). That's not too far removed from liquid hydrogen.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 14, 2021, 03:11:24 pm
content: Quote from: Nusa on November 14, 2021, 10:53:03 amThe easy solution would be to make every major road a toll road, with existing cars granted "grandfather plates" that exempts them from those tolls or at least greatly reduces the rate.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 14, 2021, 06:15:17 pm
content: Quote from: NiHaoMike on November 14, 2021, 03:11:24 pmI don't think that idea is likely to fly, people hate toll roads, and it would take a huge amount of infrastructure to implement. Unless every random back road and residential street was also made a toll road you'd find all of those clogged up with people avoiding the tolls. There has been talk of instituting a flat per mile tax, which is viable on newer cars that have OBDII or could use a GPS transponder.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 14, 2021, 06:24:57 pm
content: Quote from: Nusa on November 14, 2021, 10:53:03 amI didn't name any names, I didn't mention any parties, I only stated the facts. The governor in my state spends a lot of time blathering about the environment but actions speak louder than words, and it is a simple fact that there is a great dis-incentive to driving an electric vehicle here because you are nailed with extra taxes. I pay about $90 to renew the tabs on my car each year, my friend with a Spark EV pays around $500, my friend with a Tesla pays $950, every year. I understand the need to pay for roads and such, but we are nowhere near the market saturation where an extra EV tax makes sense. They also know damn well that the value calculations on the cars are nowhere near accurate and they don't care, the state has fought off every effort so far to correct that. When the state insists a car is worth 3 times what the insurance will pay out if it gets totaled and taxes accordingly something is very wrong.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 14, 2021, 06:45:58 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on November 14, 2021, 06:15:17 pmIn the US a viable option would be to use the car's own recorded distance travelled up to some point (how tamper safe is this?). However in areas next to neighbouring countries there have to be ways to determine how much distance a car has travelled inside and outside the country. GPS is definitely not an option. Way to easy to spoof nowadays. The US government is working on phasing GPS out for anything that is critical. The EU is going to do the same.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 14, 2021, 07:02:56 pm
content: Quote from: dunkemhigh on November 13, 2021, 11:30:22 pmWell sure, but that's why I was fine with paying for it, although it did still seem a bit trivial to take what was ~0.5% of my salary every month for the charging.But in any case the payments/tax thing for workplace charging is not difficult. Some companies give away free charging. It's like free coffee in the break room. Not everybody drinks coffee, so should they start charging for it? Other companies charge for it. Also fine. Ultimately up to the company.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 14, 2021, 07:05:31 pm
content: Quote from: Faringdon on November 14, 2021, 12:00:19 amIt's not heating the fuel cell itself that's the problem but the temperature of the coupling and the pressure/temperature difference between outside atmosphere and the fuelling process.It necessitates a reduction in fuelling rate when cold. I couldn't explain why. Maybe there is a technical solution, but it's not present in current hydrogen vehicles.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 14, 2021, 07:33:17 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on November 14, 2021, 07:05:31 pmCan you provide a reference to this? I can't find anything related to this limitation. This reporthttps://www.osti.gov/pages/servlets/purl/1389635even seems to show the opposite effect; at low temperatures the filling goes faster.

author: MadScientist
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 14, 2021, 07:49:19 pm
content: Listening to the nonsense hydrogen argument is like listening to proponents of BetamaxThe vehicle industry has decided BEV is the way forward , end of story. Even Toyota finally realised “ Betamax “ was doneThe argument is over , hydrogen is not green , expensive and dangerous to store , it’s dino fuel by another name.Batteries to day already meet 80% of most people’s private motoring needs , range now can exceed way beyond many people total weekly mileageIreland at the stroke of a pen removed benefit in kind from work chargingNo need for loads of street chargers. People will have at least a weeks range . Most urban people have small commutes and priorities are to move them to public transport . Urban people will charge at big mega charger centres. Hone charging will not be a big player into the future as the power available by the time available will not be enough for big batteries.Road pricing will be introduced based on gps , and used to recover tax for road users , this has already been studied by several countriesBy the way the biggest material in batteries isn’t lithium , it’s cobalt and nickelThe arguments advanced by HEV proponents are based on poor facts , outdated perspectives and a fundamental mis understanding of how people use cars especially EVs.The arguments long over.

author: Faringdon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 14, 2021, 09:00:30 pm
content: QuoteThanks, a Tesla Model S needs 63Kg of lithiumhttps://electrek.co/2016/11/01/breakdown-raw-materials-tesla-batteries-possible-bottleneck/An average EV contains about 10kG of lithium. Thats a lot. Its a finite resource. What if countries that have it sell it off to a "single agent"?

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 14, 2021, 09:14:02 pm
content: Quote from: Faringdon on November 14, 2021, 09:00:30 pmThat figure is nonsensical. Li-ion batteries contain a few % of lithium at most on a cell level. 63kg of lithium for 453kg on a package level is completely nonsensical. And the top comment says exactly that.QuoteAnd later comments say that an original article was about amount of lithium carbonate, not lithium.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 14, 2021, 09:23:51 pm
content: QuoteHow will the other 20% manage?

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 14, 2021, 09:45:29 pm
content: Quote from: dunkemhigh on November 14, 2021, 09:23:51 pmWhen there will be more charging infrastructure due to BEV replacing ICE and a little bit of advancement on the range, 100% will be covered.

author: Faringdon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 14, 2021, 10:04:46 pm
content: Thanks, for those who have nowhere to charge up a BEV, Hydrogen FCEV is the way forward...its faster to fill up.Also, there will be Gov grants for HFCEV, because its way too dangerous to depend only on lithium (as in BEV).Sorry but, IMHO, I guess anyone who can drive for free on solar charged BEV, is going to want that to become the status quo.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 14, 2021, 10:20:18 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on November 14, 2021, 09:45:29 pmOr not. I often need to do 200+mile journeys and then be available on a moments notice to do the same again. A charging station here and then ain't going to get me going as quickly as popping into a garage and shoving 30l in a tank. I imagine I am not unique but just a very small sample of your 20%.It's a big enough problem that I understand when all that's available to buy are EV, essential services such as ambulance and fire will still be allowed to use diesel.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 14, 2021, 10:20:56 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on November 14, 2021, 07:33:17 pmYup, gotta eat my hat on this one, I was remembering it wrong. It's been some time since I looked into this in my defence. It gets *slower* when hotter (which, I suppose makes more sense.) Here's the SAE J2601 chart for a 70MPa refuelling solution (which Mirai and most other conventional hydrogen EVs use - 35MPa is the older system.)So ~5 minutes up to about 0C, then at 25C about 10-11 minutes, at 40C up to 21 minutes and 45C you'll be waiting 29 minutes (21 minutes+ is into Supercharger stop time, so I guess hydrogen EVs may be more popular in colder countries, if they take off.)This assumes the station is fully "recharged", of course.I find it interesting there's no SAE J2601 spec for <2MPa. Is this an enforced 'hydrogen buffer' in the tank to keep the system happy that there is no leak?

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2021, 04:56:44 am
content: Quote from: dunkemhigh on November 14, 2021, 10:20:18 pmIt all goes back to plug in hybrid plus biofuel as being the most sustainable option for now that works near optimally for both short and long distance.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2021, 05:37:26 am
content: Quote from: dunkemhigh on November 14, 2021, 09:23:51 pmThe same way they manage now, internal combustion engines. Maybe they'll be fueled by gasoline, maybe diesel, maybe biofuels, maybe alcohol, CNG, propane, whatever. My bet is that gasoline and diesel engines will be with us into the foreseeable future, probably at some point most of the remaining fuel powered cars will be hybrids. I don't know why some people seem to this this has to be a case of all or nothing. If your needs are such that an EV doesn't work for you, don't buy one, it really is that simple. We are a long, long way from everyone whose needs are met by EVs having one. Until we reach that level of saturation it's stupid to even worry about it.I do think we will eventually see EVs with 500, 800, maybe even 1,000 miles of range or more for those who need it, and charging will keep getting faster up to a point. That is a low priority right now though, very few people need that much range and there are ample choices for those who do. A majority of the cars on the road are still liquid fueled, those are not all going to just vanish overnight. I'm fairly confident that all of us here will be dead well before ICE powered cars are gone.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 15, 2021, 08:49:09 am
content: Quote from: dunkemhigh on November 14, 2021, 10:20:18 pmYou are not unique enough for existing EVs to not cover your needs. There are existing EV with 400+ mile range. And even if you buy a cheaper one like model 3/Y (with something like 350 mile range), 10 minutes of supercharging will give you another 150-200 miles of range.

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2021, 09:33:16 am
content: Quote from: MadScientist on November 14, 2021, 07:49:19 pmMaybe within the context of a dictatorship, unfortunately we live in a democracy and saddling poorfags with range anxiety and the inconvenience of slow fast charging (it would have to be done with appointment too, so doubly inconvenient) is not going to go over well at the ballot box. So yeah, there is a need for loads of street chargers.We'll need a huge amount of green hydrogen for reducing and industrial process heating regardless if we are to meet decarbonization deadlines, we will likely need huge amounts of hydrogen for seasonal/emergency storage too. If that happens it becomes likely some other uses will piggy back on the infrastructure needed. Maybe not personal transport, but for trucking and airplanes liquid hydrogen could be an option if it can be made cheaply enough.

author: ogden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2021, 10:02:26 am
content: What about energy storage (in)efficiency of hydrogen+fuel_cell? AFAIK not only initial costs but also operational are higher compared to battery EV.

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2021, 10:14:51 am
content: The extension cord to connect a jetliner to the grid in flight isn't free either.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2021, 11:38:40 am
content: QuoteYes, I'd like a hybrid.QuoteBecause that's how it's being sold to us. In London's ultra-low emission zone hybrids are classed the same as petrol and diesel. They get a free pass on the congestion charge, but only because they were the clean option when that was brought in. It is clearly full EV or filthy polluter - no middle way.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2021, 11:57:13 am
content: Quote from: dunkemhigh on November 15, 2021, 11:38:40 amThe problem with PHEVs is they're rarely charged.I have a Golf GTE PHEV, and I plug mine in almost religiously, and plan the usage of the battery when on hybrid mode to maximise efficiency (and thereby minimise CO2.)I am fairly unique. My neighbour has the Audi S3 version of my GTE, and I don't think I've ever seen it plugged in. He starts it in the morning and a delightful smell of petrol bursts out of the exhaust. He then idles it for about 5 minutes before setting off, I guess he wants the cabin warm. This is despite him parking next to his back garden, so charging would hardly be an onerous problem (I run an extension lead through the window.) He could pre-heat it and probably use the vehicle part-electrically, but instead just benefits from the tax discount for the lease.To allow PHEVs in London (and other big cities) at the same rate as EVs - you'd need to say that they had to be used on electric. And the whole point of a PHEV is that they have both electric and fuel available to them. Maybe you could say driving in a zero-emissions zone is only allowed on electric mode, but how would you determine that from cameras alone?

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2021, 02:23:56 pm
content: Isn't an issue with hybrids the small battery? Something like 20-mile range, which isn't that much. However, I would have thought that with the rise in petrol prices, plugging it in whenever you can would be worth a fair bit! Clearly, your neighbour earns too much and should be paying more taxes

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2021, 02:37:14 pm
content: Quote from: dunkemhigh on November 15, 2021, 02:23:56 pmEven with a small battery you could save a fair bit of money with a PHEV IF you can charge it from your own outlet (or better: for free) and IF you drive short distances. But then again, short distances are also easy to cover by bicycle. I rarely use my car to drive less than 10km and have no problem to travel much further by bicycle. Inside a city a bicycle is among the fastest modes of transportation anyway.

author: ogden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2021, 06:17:41 pm
content: Quote from: Marco on November 15, 2021, 10:14:51 amYour point is what exactly? - That consumers do not care about "fuel" cost? Think again. It's 47.5 EUR to fill 500km range Toyota Miray compared to 15 EUR 500km range Tesla Model3 (2017 price)..pdf. Hydrogen fuel cells could be good for long range trucks - because the bigger vehicle, the worse impact of battery dead weight. Attach from same document.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2021, 06:25:03 pm
content: Quote from: ogden on November 15, 2021, 06:17:41 pmThat depends on where your electricity comes from. 500km range from a super charger along the highway costs you 80 euro!

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 15, 2021, 06:36:18 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on November 15, 2021, 06:25:03 pmUtter BShttps://tm3een.home.blog/2021/06/06/kwh-prices-at-european-tesla-superchargers-20210606/Quote

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2021, 06:47:13 pm
content: Quote from: ogden on November 15, 2021, 06:17:41 pmMy point is that expensive beats impossible, green hydrogen will first come into very large scale use where it's expensive but the alternatives defacto impossible (steel production without coke, possibly storage/flight etc). Where the relative price for it goes after that, well that's anyone's guess. The cost of intermittently generated electricity needed at will and storable hydrogen won't necessarily remain the same going forward.

author: Miyuki
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2021, 07:17:44 pm
content: I once run out of gas and was simply towed to the nearest gas station. Quick and easy, problem solved. Just tow to charger station.I have like a 50km/year free tow in road assistance for about 3€ a monthAnd for battery life, most statistics show that battery life in, for example, Teslas has a usable life of 500-1000 Thousand km. It is more than most ICE have and the rest of the car will be pretty worn after this time.

author: Sal Ammoniac
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2021, 07:24:46 pm
content: The CEO of Toyota is pushing internal combustion engines burning hydrogen as a carbon-neutral power source.https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-11-13/japan-carmakers-showcase-carbon-neutral-fuels-in-road-raceTo me, that's a step backwards from EVs and fuel-cell hydrogen cars. IC engines are inefficient (think of all of the waste heat they produce), and even when they're burning hydrogen they still produce NOx pollution that needs to be dealt with using a catalytic convertor.

author: ogden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2021, 07:29:21 pm
content: Quote from: Miyuki on November 15, 2021, 07:17:44 pmPlease define "usable battery life". For you crippled downto 1/3 of initial "factory range" could be possibly OK, but for me - rather not. Disclaimer: I do not say that after 1000000 km tesla battery has 1/3 range capacity. This is rather question what remaining capacity % of tesla battery after 1000000 km is.

author: not1xor1
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2021, 07:52:56 pm
content: Quote from: Sal Ammoniac on November 15, 2021, 07:24:46 pmhydrogen is still produced from fossil fuels (methane). All that hydrogen stuff is pure nonsense. In the meantime they are building a factory for new DC motors made just of copper, i.e. no rare earth elements for permanent magnets while Na-ion batteries are already in production and you get plenty of Na from the oceans...

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2021, 07:56:08 pm
content: Quote from: dunkemhigh on November 15, 2021, 02:23:56 pmThe range of a hybrid is determined by the capacity of the fuel tank, just like any other car. The idea of a plug in hybrid is you can drive at least partially on battery power for the short trips that represent most driving people do. You have the engine powered by conventional fuel when you need to go further. My partner has a 2002 Prius which is the first generation, it has a small NiMH battery pack and can only operate entirely on electricity under about 5mph. The rest of the time the electric motor is just there to augment the torque of a relatively small ICE and provides some immediate acceleration from a stop to give the engine time to start up. The gas engine starts and stops as needed and the whole thing works remarkably seamlessly for being an early example of the technology.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2021, 07:58:00 pm
content: Quote from: dunkemhigh on November 15, 2021, 11:38:40 amThat's a political problem much more so than a technological problem. You get the government you vote for, or however they are appointed in your part of the world.

author: ogden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2021, 08:20:44 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on November 15, 2021, 07:56:08 pmRight. ICE of hybrids is operated at maximum efficiency mode unless you floor it. When battery full - you can continue to be stuck in the city traffic on electric motor. So even (and only) in city mode it is indeed much more efficient than traditional ICE car. On the other hand - if you usually long-range travel and don't need city only or mixed city/highway, then better get diesel car  or just EV if you are sure to be immune against Range Anxiety

author: Sal Ammoniac
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2021, 08:36:12 pm
content: Quote from: not1xor1 on November 15, 2021, 07:52:56 pmAC induction motors don't have permanent magnets, hence no need for rare earth metals like neodymium. The Tesla Model S uses an induction motor with a pure copper rotor and it seems to be efficient enough.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2021, 08:36:23 pm
content: Quote from: Sal Ammoniac on November 15, 2021, 07:24:46 pmThe other problem is it's pretty difficult to make a hydrogen ICE car - I mean it's not as if hydrogen FCEVs are easy *either* but hydrogen ICE introduces even more complexities.To make an efficient one, you basically have the same problem efficient, powerful diesels have: NOx. So you won't be getting rid of adblue any time soon. 'tho I suppose you could produce the ammonia from excess hydrogen.It's also even less efficient than hydrogen FCEV, because an ICE is just not that thermodynamically efficient. The best fuel cells are ca. 75-80% efficient, with a motor, maybe 60-70% of hydrogen goes to the wheels; an ICE is what, 33-40%? I am not sure how hydrogen changes that efficiency, but we also have to remember that a FCEV gets you "hybrid" for free, that is, regen braking, electric A/C, electric PS, and no ICE running under inefficient acceleration/coast profiles. Those usually only come if you then bolt an electric motor onto the side of an ICE engine, so you still need a small battery pack and inverter.It's really hard to see what the Toyota CEO is thinking here - he's clearly betting on battery EVs being too expensive (despite the fact you can now get 50kWh battery cars like e-208 which aren't *that* much more expensive than their ICE counterpart) - but at the same time thinks that we're going to have massive amounts of hydrogen infrastructure and hydrogen fuel to throw about. Obviously, because we'd be throwing away 5x as much renewable energy per km travelled with hydrogen ICE than a battery EV.I do see a strong future for hydrogen, but I think it will be in domestic/industrial heating, air travel, trucks and for trains where they are impractical to otherwise electrify. It just doesn't add up for passenger cars.

author: ogden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2021, 08:46:34 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on November 15, 2021, 08:36:23 pmBusiness as usual. In this case he is trying to convince petrolheads to buy hydrogen cars - to earn more

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2021, 08:55:32 pm
content: Quote from: not1xor1 on November 15, 2021, 07:52:56 pmHydrogen production is absolutely nonsense at the moment from any efficiency or carbon-neutrality POV. But the whole point is that it can be - kinda - used as an almost direct replacement of classic fuels. The devil is in the details though, and the kinda is, in practice, kinda, but it makes the switch look easier than going for an EV, allows to reuse designs and patents - for the ICE approach in particular...Everyone and their brother will jump on the hydrogen bandwagon these days. Doesn't mean it makes sense. Hydrogen is the new graphene.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2021, 08:59:52 pm
content: If a "free" source of power should become practical (e.g., fusion), water could be electrolysed into hydrogen and oxygen at the power source and distributed through pipelines. However, it is true that 95% of current industrial production of hydrogen is from natural gas, where the rest of the feedstock is carbon.Seehttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_production

author: Sal Ammoniac
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2021, 09:10:14 pm
content: That's the problem. Although hydrogen makes up 90% of the matter in the universe, on earth it's bound up in compounds that require lots of energy to create free hydrogen. The water in the oceans is a nearly unlimited source of hydrogen, but splitting it into oxygen and hydrogen by electrolysis requires 260 kJ/mole. Other methods, like treating methane with high temperature steam, has comparable energy costs and some of these techniques (like steam reforming of methane) produce CO2 as a byproduct.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2021, 09:11:25 pm
content: QuoteYep, and the solution will be political, not technological. Sure, you need the technology (and working technology at that) but scaling it and getting it accepted is generally a political thing. Unless you can go viral on TikTok, maybe.QuoteSeems to be you get the government everyone else voted for.Votes aren't the answer. With most elections you have a couple of parties and several hatfulls of issues. If one of those parties happens to have in their manifesto the thing you really care about (which isn't often - many times no party will be onboard) the chances are very high that they'll be done on something else you really care for.

author: ogden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2021, 09:11:37 pm
content: Quote from: TimFox on November 15, 2021, 08:59:52 pmRight. Some EU bureaucrats realized it hard way.This projectdeemeddoomed to be inefficient and too costly compared to usual "wired" trolley bus. Who would thought, right?

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2021, 09:12:51 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on November 15, 2021, 06:36:18 pmTesla's superchargers aren't along the highway. Look at the prices from -for example- Ionity: 0.79 euro per kWh

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 15, 2021, 09:25:21 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on November 15, 2021, 09:12:51 pmYou said "super charger" which implies Tesla, then call for Ionyty prices. Still it won't cost EUR 80 to charge unless you have an inefficient garbage like Audi e-tron. As of Hydrogen, in Latvia we have a whopping single filling station which sells steam methane reformed junk for 14,50 EUR/kg.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 15, 2021, 09:30:52 pm
content: Also you can get a discounted subscription price, it makes no sense to use Ionity otherwise.https://www.electrive.com/2021/10/01/ionity-launches-35-cent-kwh-subscription-model/+ there are car manufacturer specific deals.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2021, 10:10:29 pm
content: Quote from: TimFox on November 15, 2021, 08:59:52 pmOf course, but at that point, we'll probably have other ways to use all this "free" power. But it's just not there, and basing major investments and strategies on something as uncertain as this while making things worse in the meantime is a questionable approach.As the saying goes, if my aunt had a pair, I would call her my uncle.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2021, 10:20:35 pm
content: That goes without saying.My point is that should that glorious day arrive when we have "free power" from centralized plants, we need to distribute it to the points of load.The conventional manner is electrical distribution, and there is a large infrastructure in place.A possible manner is the existing pipeline system, where there is also a large infrastructure in place.It is an interesting calculation to compare the distribution efficiency of the two methods, but no incentive to invest until the "free power" become available (note use of subjunctive mood).

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2021, 10:32:33 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on November 15, 2021, 09:12:51 pmIonity's high pricing is very deliberate to keep their walled garden but since they have CCS they still attract EU funding/subsidies (stupid move by the EU to not cap the rates they charge at.)If you have a VW subscription it's ~£14/m and then £0.25/kWh.With Hyundai it's ~£11/m then £0.28/kWh.Mercedes throw 3 years in free subscription with the car, energy @ £0.25/kWh.Ford is completely free for a year (£0/kWh), then for the next 4 years is @ £0.27/kWh, no announced subscription fee.(None of these 'passes' are available if you do not own one of the respective vehicles. No idea if/how the charging station validates that it is 'that' particular car though.)And I suppose this isn't surprising given Ionity is majority owned by VW, Hyundai, Daimler, Ford & BMW.It's very clearly built with the intention of making Tesla and non-Ionity "supported" EVs expensive to charge. It'll be interesting to see how this shifts as Tesla are charging at their superchargers about the same rate, but all car manufacturers get the same rate.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2021, 10:34:22 pm
content: Regarding distributing hydrogen safely through pipelines, wouldn't that require major modifications to the existing ones anyway to reach any reasonable level of safety? Really wondering.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2021, 10:37:54 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on November 15, 2021, 10:34:22 pmWhat, so natural gas is a totally safe and non-explosive gas?One issue is existing pipelines need to be replaced if they contain certain steel, as the steel is embrittled by hydrogen.Many of these pipelines have been replaced with plastic/composite pipes already anyway. They are cheaper to install, more flexible, and last longer.A secondary issue is how you maintain a dual-fuel natural gas and hydrogen grid, without running two sets of pipes. Some infrastructure won't cope with hydrogen, but others might require pure hydrogen. I wonder how practical mass-separating the gases would be.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2021, 10:40:14 pm
content: Hydrogen and methane are both inflammable: what is important to investigate is the range of gas:oxygen for an inflammable mixture. Pure gas (hydrogen or methane) will not burn, and too high an oxygen content will not support combustion: there is a large range in between that is hazardous.(I am using the literal meaning of "inflammable", not the Underwriters' preferred usage of "flammable".)

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2021, 10:46:03 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on November 15, 2021, 10:37:54 pmFrom an industrial website: (referrring to hydrogen embrittlement at room temperature).https://www.imetllc.com/hydrogen-embrittlement-steel/"High-strength steels with tensile strength greater than about 145 ksi (1000 MPa) are the alloys most vulnerable to hydrogen embrittlement.""For applications where there will be hydrogen absorption while a component is in service, the use of lower strength steels and reduction of residual and applied stress are ways to avoid fracture due to hydrogen embrittlement."About 20 years ago, the local natural gas utility put a plastic pipe inside the original steel gas pipe from the gas main to my house gas meter. However, most of my gas piping inside is steel, with some copper. Hydrogen embrittlement is also a concern with steam attacking iron, and was a limit to the superheated steam temperature in steam locomotives.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2021, 10:46:44 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on November 15, 2021, 10:32:33 pmThat is another problem that needs to be hashed out first: fair rates for charging. At this point nobody knows for how long the charging infrastructure that is being build now is relevant. Given the rapid progress of battery and charging technology it would be foolish to think that is longer than 10 years so any investment needs to be earned back before that. With fast chargers you can choose between several competitors but with street level charging you are basically stuck with whatever company wins the bid for your street. Currently none of the companies that are building EV charging infrastructure are making a profit. That has to change at some point so I expect prices for charging to rise significantly.And it is nothing new. For example: where I live there is district heating so I'm stuck with whatever company owns the heating infrastructure. It has taken 30 years to have a law passed that sets limits to the tarifs of district heating. I used to pay 35 euro per GJ. Since the law is in effect I pay 25 euro per GJ.Quote from: SiliconWizard on November 15, 2021, 10:34:22 pmGas is gas. Most of the natural gas infrastructure in the NL seems to be suitable for hydrogen.

author: richard.cs
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2021, 10:48:42 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on November 15, 2021, 10:37:54 pmIn comparison to hydrogen, yes. Methane in air is explosive from 5% to 17%, hydrogen 4% to 75%. In practice it means hydrogen is much more likely to make an explosive mix, even before you account for its greater tenancy to leak in the first place due to the small molecule.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2021, 10:53:04 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on November 15, 2021, 10:46:44 pmWell, it's a good reason that domestic charging has to be at a fair rate, for sure. Actually, it would be best if the chargers are like electricity to your home. They should have smart metering built in, but they form part of your energy bill at home. So you can still take advantage of discount electricity at night. And choose different providers.On the road, I would argue the competitive market is enough to keep rates fair, petrol station prices are generally competitive. The average retailer makes a few pence per litre off fuel, they hope you come in and buy a sandwich and drink instead because that makes them more than 50 litres of fuel does. Motorway services always more expensive but if you are prepared to go off the motorway for a mile or two you can save a small fortune. I doubt that EV chargers will be any different.Regarding profit, I am not sure that is fair. IONITY is having a massive chunk bitten out of it by vulture capitalists. BP own "bp pulse" (a useless, unreliable network, FWIW, but that's another matter). The money is there and there's no reason EV charging can't be profitable but Amazon and Tesla took decades before they made a penny...

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2021, 11:30:02 pm
content: Quote from: richard.cs on November 15, 2021, 10:48:42 pmOTOH hydrogen is much lighter than air (nitrogen / oxygen mix) thus more likely to dissipate than to build up in a basement like methane can do because it is heavier than air.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2021, 11:40:42 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on November 15, 2021, 11:30:02 pmHydrogen (H2in nature) has a molecular weight of approximately 2.Methane (CH4) has a molecular weight of approximately 16.Nitrogen (N2) has a molecular weight of approximately 28. Oxygen (O2) is approximately 32.Far above the boiling point, the Ideal Gas Law gives a density proportional to the molecular weight.Therefore, as you said, hydrogen is much lighter than air, but methane is roughly half as heavy as air.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 16, 2021, 12:17:34 am
content: I remember in my chemistry class in high school we learned about that, the teacher used a pan of soapy water and methane from the gas tab on the bench to make large bubbles which floated up toward the ceiling which he poked with a flame on the end of a stick. It was a lot of fun, that teacher was well known for flames and explosions, he was very popular with students.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 16, 2021, 12:45:53 am
content: Charging stations: they're not going to be like current filling stations since the car will need to sit for some time to charge. Currently car comes in, fills tank, gone in a couple of minutes. Once that flow is slowed down, there's a limit to how many cars can be hanging around, so throughput is going to be much lower and the filling station would need to make more profit per car (ignoring that more stations would be needed to maintain overall filling rates).On the plus side (for the filling station) they'll have a captive audience to sell stuff to, just like the airlines get to make you walk through shopping centers en route to the aircraft (and than sit in cafes for 2 hours).

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 16, 2021, 01:13:25 am
content: Quote from: dunkemhigh on November 16, 2021, 12:45:53 amI'll bet shopping malls are early adopters. They are common at pharmacies around here. But, really, there's nothing to do in a pharmacy. But put them in a mall and watch sales grow.

author: Miyuki
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 16, 2021, 07:59:54 am
content: Quote from: ogden on November 15, 2021, 07:29:21 pmHere is nice pictureSo even after 1000000 km should be about 2/3 of the original capacityThat is still a reasonable range to useAnd no issue when used as a second car

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 16, 2021, 08:02:07 am
content: Quote from: dunkemhigh on November 16, 2021, 12:45:53 amIt the area a filling station takes, you can install many times more charging stalls. Which are also much cheaper. So throughput is not really an issue. For example, here you could easily install 20-30 charging stalls:

author: Miyuki
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 16, 2021, 08:05:48 am
content: Quote from: wraper on November 16, 2021, 08:02:07 amI spotted that many of the gas stations around me start to install one or two charging spotsSo you can stop for the charge, get some snacks and coffee and in 30 minutes go on

author: not1xor1
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 16, 2021, 08:11:02 am
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on November 15, 2021, 08:55:32 pmThey have been promoting the hydrogen nonsense for tens of years.See:https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ese3.956:QuoteRegarding the magnet free motor I was referring to:https://www.mahle.com/en/news-and-press/press-releases/mahle-develops-highly-efficient-magnet-free-electric-motor--82368Regarding Na-ion batteries:https://www.reuters.com/technology/chinas-top-ev-battery-maker-catl-touts-new-sodium-ion-batteries-2021-07-29/Biofuels already made lots of damage leading to deforestation and food price increase. Burning hydrogen in IC engines is just the last fashion in that greenwashing madness.

author: not1xor1
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 16, 2021, 08:12:27 am
content: Quote from: wraper on November 16, 2021, 08:02:07 amand there is plenty of room for solar panels

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 16, 2021, 08:41:22 am
content: Quote from: Miyuki on November 16, 2021, 07:59:54 amIt's almost as if people forget that ICE engine cars don't typically last beyond 200,000 miles.My old Ford Focus was an economical write off, the engine was burning oil at 135,000 miles. My old Peugeot had coolant leaks in the cylinder at 115,000 miles that could be temporarily fixed with "RadSeal", but led to oil slowly making its way into the coolant. The Japanese marques might do better, certainly. But I still doubt they'll outlive an EV with a stable, liquid cooled battery.

author: Miyuki
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 16, 2021, 09:16:51 am
content: Quote from: tom66 on November 16, 2021, 08:41:22 amTruth most modern engines need new piston rings at about 100,000 milesAnd head gasket failure is in most cases a consequence of failure in the cooling systemBoth are easy to repair and parts are cheap, but takes about a day or two of service work what can be an issue and not many services do this kind of work today. They do just the easy repairsBut also there is plenty of ICE that fail to metallurgy fatigue at about 150,000-200,000As they are engineered this way to make them cheaper while most owners do not use cars this longICE can be easily built to last 1,000,000 km but it does not make much economic sense as it makes it more expensive to manufacture and might slightly increase fuel consumption plus people do not like to ride in 20,30,... years old car

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 16, 2021, 10:25:42 am
content: Quote from: wraper on November 16, 2021, 08:02:07 amIf on demand fast chargers are supposed to be the solution for everyone without a driveway that will require a significantly higher peak power delivery from the grid and the storage, that's a lot of extra power on a Friday afternoon, not sure if it will be cheaper. In fact I suspect it would be so expensive that fast charging would be done on appointment (with on demand fast charging possible with higher cost per kwh). Either way, less convenient than just extremely high density of roadside slow chargers.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 16, 2021, 10:29:14 am
content: Quote from: Marco on November 16, 2021, 10:25:42 amIt was a reply to comparison with conventional filling stations. Show chargers should be located at places where the cars would be parked anyway for other reasons than just charging.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 16, 2021, 01:09:41 pm
content: QuoteBut instead of fuel tanks you could have on-site BFO batteries which charge 24/7, and the cars take their charge primarily from this on-site storage.

author: Miyuki
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 16, 2021, 01:16:19 pm
content: Quote from: dunkemhigh on November 16, 2021, 01:09:41 pmSounds like a great case for Flywheel energy storage

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 16, 2021, 01:52:07 pm
content: Quote from: Marco on November 16, 2021, 10:25:42 amIf you ponder on this a bit; hydrogen is cheaper for long term storage and those peak loads are happening only during parts of the day. If you go a step further you could have a large tank of hydrogen next to a charging station with a hydrogen to electricity converter. But then again, why not fill a car with hydrogen and skip the stationary hydrogen to electricity conversion which needs to deliver an extreme peak power compared to a smaller fuel cell inside the car?Roadside slow chargers are also expensive. The operator will need to do installation and maintenance as well. My estimate is that a public charger costs around 5k to 10k euro over a period of 10 years. That has to come from of the pocket of 2 or 3 users. In the Netherlands alone they estimate to need 5 million charging points. Even at 5k euro each that is a cost of 25 billion euros.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 16, 2021, 02:08:52 pm
content: QuoteI wouldn't want to be living next door to it.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 16, 2021, 05:10:33 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on November 16, 2021, 01:52:07 pmBecause hydrogen is really a last-resort fuel for applications where batteries don't have the energy density.Sure, EVs are not suitable everywhere and there probably will be hydrogen vehicles like trucks, aircraft, boats and trains.For cars, there is already plenty dense Li-Ion technology to get a 30kEUR car to 250 miles range. What problem is hydrogen solving here for the enormous additional cost? A reduction in "charging" times to 5-10 minutes in ideal conditions, but with the removal of all home charging options and a substantial reduction in overall efficiency - I don't buy it as a practical alternative. It'll chug along for a decade or so but I reckon even Toyota will give up on it eventually. EVs getting to 200kW+ fast charging on a 'regular' basis will completely eliminate its viability.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 16, 2021, 05:16:13 pm
content: QuoteI guess USB-C isn't going to cut the mustard on this one.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 16, 2021, 05:37:24 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on November 16, 2021, 05:10:33 pmYou are not getting the core of the problem: unless you charge a BEV from your own outlet, it will be too expensive to operate compared to (bio)fuel and/or hydrogen. Or put differently: what is going to put a stop to BEV adoption at some point is the lack of people who can charge a BEV from their own outlets.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 16, 2021, 05:40:57 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on November 16, 2021, 05:37:24 pmI don't agree with the premise.As I stated before the time an EV needs to spend charging is about 5% of its time spent on the road, even if it's only a 7kW post.This can be done at work, on the street, at the supermarket, at the mall, wherever...And 50% of those owning a car will be able to charge at home, because they have off street parking or a driveway.It is all about providing opportunity charging. Stop thinking about charging like it's refuelling. It's not. It's more like grazing for electrons.Yes we do need thousands of chargers, but your 25 billion EUR assessment seems crazy to me. The local council installed a small number of EV chargers and they were under the 5kEUR figure you quote for 7kW, this was just for two at a time. Fill a car park with 40 and the cost will fall even further.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 16, 2021, 05:50:27 pm
content: Doesn't matter how or when a BEV gets charged from public chargers. Just take a piece of paper and start adding the cost for the charging infrastructure. You'll see the costs are massive and there needs to be a ROI on top at some point.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 16, 2021, 05:57:14 pm
content: Quote from: dunkemhigh on November 16, 2021, 01:09:41 pmTrue. But then you're adding one more layer, so decreased efficiency.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 16, 2021, 06:18:43 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on November 16, 2021, 05:50:27 pmDo you know how much a car parking space costs?A flat tarmacked space in a standard car park is about 8000 EUR.A multi-storey car park is close to 40,000 EUR/space.On street is effectively 'nil' at present because we don't charge anyone to park their vehicle on the road (with some exceptions for city centres etc.) But, if it was priced according to the road surface area, it'd probably be similar to the standard car parking space.Of course someone pays for this - so why are you so concerned about +800-2000 EUR for a charger per space?

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 16, 2021, 06:27:06 pm
content: Quote from: Miyuki on November 16, 2021, 09:16:51 amI find that surprising. I don't think I have ever owned a car with under 100,000 miles on it and I've never had to replace the piston rings in any of them. My daily driver has almost 270k on it and doesn't burn oil although I need to fix a leak in the rear main seal. My previous car had 330k miles on it when I was rear ended and totaled it, the engine still ran well and didn't burn oil. I would be really upset if a well maintained engine suffered a major failure at under 250k.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 16, 2021, 06:38:11 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on November 16, 2021, 05:50:27 pmOMG, stop, just stop! I'm sorry but you are so full of shit, every one of these threads you come in and start making these absolutely absurd arguments, completely un-encumbered by reality. Most of what you keep saying is simply not true, you're making mountains out of problems that were solved years ago, claiming things can't be done that are already being done by millions of people, inventing new problems that never existed and it's just getting ridiculous. You don't like EVs, we get it, that has been made abundantly clear, so don't buy one and that problem is solved. Meanwhile the rest of the world is getting on with things, and large numbers of people are finding them perfectly suitable, enough so that some of the best selling cars in the world are EVs. Yet you continue to argue endlessly from some alternate reality where none of this has happened yet, continuously inventing problems that don't exist or making up data that is wildly exaggerated. It's just ridiculous.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 16, 2021, 06:43:12 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on November 16, 2021, 06:18:43 pmBut those aren't in front of your homeOn top of that such commercial parking spaces devaluate at a much slower pace (more likely in the order of 20 to 30 years) with revenue coming from many cars parked in that space for a short period of time.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 16, 2021, 06:46:59 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on November 16, 2021, 06:38:11 pmNo, you just keep living the pipe dream. In an older thread I brought up the fact that putting an extension cord over the side walk is not a good idea because of liability issues due to tripping danger and likely to be banned. I was the forum's idiot for even bringing it up. Fast forward to today: in the city I live in you get a fine of 259 euro if you charge your EV using an extension cord over the sidewalk. The reason behind it --drum roll-- : liability due to tripping danger.Sure it is easy to solve all the problems in the world sitting from an comfy armchair but the reality is much thougher than you like to think.

author: ogden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 16, 2021, 06:48:06 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on November 16, 2021, 06:27:06 pmWhat is your 270k mile daily driver that does not burn oil? I bet it is not equipped with "modern" petrol 1500cc turbo engine.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 16, 2021, 06:52:09 pm
content: We may or may not agree on the minute details, but one thing I'm almost sure of is that EVs are not going to be as scalable a solution as ICEVs anytime soon. And I do not think this is the intent either, as it looks like general politics tend to get us towards a world with a lot LESS private transportation anyway. Just saying. So if someone is ever dreaming, it's probably mainly about that point: EVs replacing ICEVs exactly, by similar numbers and use cases. Yeah right.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 16, 2021, 06:53:45 pm
content: Quote from: ogden on November 16, 2021, 06:48:06 pmIt's a Volvo 740, 2.3L SOHC turbocharged 4 cylinder gasoline engine. It's over 30 years old so not really "modern" I guess but it's not ancient either. The one I had with 330k on it was another 740 with the same engine.We also have a slightly more modern 2002 Toyota Prius, it only has 140k on it but shows no signs of engine wear. I don't know if they're still using those but Microsoft had a whole fleet of Prius shuttles back when I last worked there, they had some with over 300k on them.

author: MadScientist
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 16, 2021, 06:59:09 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on November 16, 2021, 06:46:59 pmThere is no requirement to charge outside your home. Most cars will soon deliver 500 km or more this is more then most people drive in a week. They’ll charge at commercialfast chargers as and when they require. House charger is a temporary thing , BEV batteries will soon be bigger then the capacity of a house feed to charge then in a reasonable time.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 16, 2021, 07:07:28 pm
content: That makes no sense at all. House charging is the single biggest benefit of an EV, you just plug it in at home and trickle charge overnight, you never have to go looking for fuel, it's just full every morning. Charging stations are for people who cannot charge at home but still want an EV, and to alleviate range anxiety and allow for the occasional longer trip. Even Tesla has stated that their intent is for most charging to occur at home, that's the whole plan. I get that not everyone can charge at home, my dad was in that category and he made use of Superchargers and destination charging to charge his Tesla but everyone I currently know who has one plugs it in at home. Home charging is an absolutely huge feature, it's fantastic, it's something that every EV owner I know loves about their car.Seriously, I love my old gas car, but if it were possible for me to trickle fuel into it overnight in my driveway or garage and have a full tank every time I go out somewhere, I would gladly give up the ability to fill up quickly at a gas station. I absolutely hate having to go get gas, it's always some inopportune time when I realize I need it, seems like it's always either cold and windy or roasting hot out, it's always out of my way, I hate the smell of gas stations, it's probably my least favorite aspect of car ownership.

author: Miyuki
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 16, 2021, 07:12:30 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on November 16, 2021, 06:53:45 pmToday is common to have a 1.0 turbo with an even higher power, in the car this sizePlus oil change interval is set mostly for 40,000km (25,000 miles) to lower maintenance, it is proven to damage engine, but fleet customers want it as they don't keep cars that long and for example, in Europe, it is a big part of the market, a big portion of people here have the car as an employment benefit

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 16, 2021, 07:14:38 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on November 16, 2021, 06:43:12 pmGreat. Charge 5 euro-cents per kWh above the wholesale cost of electricity and the charger will be paid for after a few years, if EVs are in abundance the cost of maintenance for the charger really won't be significant.Assuming 33% utilisation (~8 hours in use per day) a 7kW point dispenses 56kWh of electricity per day. At 5 cents/kWh margin it makes 1,000 EUR/year.That's more than enough to pay for the cost of maintenance of the charging point, and amortises its install cost after a few years.Did you know, petrol stations would be really unprofitable if only one person visited them every day?!

author: ogden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 16, 2021, 07:52:36 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on November 16, 2021, 06:53:45 pmOh, I seeThose have good reliability records indeed. I asked because modern engines built for strict emission rules are burning oil straight out of the factory - becausehighbetter fuel efficiency means lower engine friction that has it's price. In short - modern, "efficient" small engines needs piston ring overhaul much sooner than old gas guzzlers.QuoteIt's because oldskool ICE engine runs as soon as you are moving, hybrid - not always. Hybrid engines are detuned (Atkinson cycle), they run engine preferably at max efficiency mode which means mediocre RPM unless you floor it, and what's more important - "engine hours" versus "movement hours" is somewhere around 50..80% obviously depending on driving style and city/highway cycles. Hint: don't buy hybrid for long range hi-speed commute, its is waste of money. So, your 140k mile hybrid "city cycle" engine can have wear similar to engine of 70k mile generic ICE car.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 17, 2021, 04:46:36 am
content: Quote from: Miyuki on November 16, 2021, 07:12:30 pmThat's crazy, I change my oil pretty religiously at 5,000 miles and have always run full synthetic in my turbo cars. Even at today's prices oil is cheap when compared to the price of an engine rebuild or new car.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 17, 2021, 04:50:27 am
content: Quote from: ogden on November 16, 2021, 07:52:36 pmIt does 40-45 mpg cruising on the highway so it's still quite good compared to other cars of the era. I don't remember what kind of mileage it gets around town but I think it's actually similar. It's the most boring car I can ever recall driving, but it has been amazingly reliable as a transportation appliance, and it was not very expensive. I think she paid $5k for it after the virtually identical 2001 model she had got rear ended. We recently had the original 19 year old battery replaced, that cost about $2k but it drives like new now.

author: Miyuki
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 17, 2021, 09:02:47 am
content: Quote from: james_s on November 17, 2021, 04:46:36 amIt is the same as a "lifetime" transmission fluidThe life of those transmissions aren't long then

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 17, 2021, 09:13:35 am
content: Quote from: ogden on November 16, 2021, 07:52:36 pmSlight understated advantage of a hybrid here is that it allows a smaller powertrain to run closer to maximum power point, with the electric motor providing boost.So my Golf GTE has a 140 hp engine and in hybrid mode the E-motor adds 50 hp. This means the acceleration of the car is reasonable (0-60 in 6.8s) but the economy at cruise is quite good (because you don't need an under-loaded 2 litre engine to achieve that acceleration figure.)This is despite the fact that the GTE is only a parallel hybrid, not something more sophisticated like the series-parallel planetary gearbox in the Prius. And it isn't an Atkinson cycle; the engine is only slightly modified from the standard 1.4 TSI.I think the ideal PHEV would be a 1.0L - 1.2L petrol engine coupled to a 100 hp electric drivetrain. I think Mazda are/were working on that. My suspicion is that the inflection point for BEVs has happened already though. The VW Golf eHybrid - the modern version of my car - and the VW ID3 are practically identical in price.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 17, 2021, 06:59:22 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on November 17, 2021, 09:13:35 amIt's funny that 0-60 in 6.8s is "reasonable", back in the 60s-70s that would have been firmly in muscle car territory and quicker than the vast majority of cars on the road.

author: Miyuki
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 17, 2021, 08:25:53 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on November 17, 2021, 06:59:22 pmYeh cars under 10s tend to be considered "fast"I have a wagon with old 97 hp diesel with 4-speed auto that is a rocket, I can feel like and race driver, half the way on full throttleBut it gets over 1000km on a full tankThey used to be consedered green back then because of so low fuel consumption

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 17, 2021, 09:11:39 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on November 17, 2021, 06:59:22 pmSomeone owning a Golf GTE probably has some requirements in terms of performance that your average Joe does not.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 17, 2021, 09:13:42 pm
content: Quote from: Miyuki on November 17, 2021, 08:25:53 pmMy friend had an old VW Golf diesel I drove a few times, I think it was a 1983, no turbo, I remember the gas pedal was pretty much binary, you either were sat at a stop and not touching it at all, or you had it held to the floor and were waiting patiently for it to get up to speed before having to stop at the next light. I'm still a fan of diesels overall, the low fuel consumption and high torque of a turbo diesel is a winning combination. We never got many of them in cars here though.

author: Miyuki
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2021, 05:34:58 am
content: Quote from: james_s on November 17, 2021, 09:13:42 pmWikipedia says they used to put 1.6 non-turbo diesel with whopping 52 hpThat must be something

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2021, 06:43:37 am
content: Quote from: Miyuki on November 18, 2021, 05:34:58 amThat sounds about right. They were certainly not sports cars, although they were very light compared to modern cars so they weren't *quite* as slow as 52hp sounds, but they were still slow. They got great fuel economy for the era too.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2021, 09:34:38 am
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on November 17, 2021, 09:11:39 pmFastest car I ever owned, but it was a present to myself once I finally was able to afford a "reasonable" used car. Used to drive a 206 2.0 HDi diesel (~90 hp turbodiesel), not a bad car as a student, but the accelerator on that was more like advice to the ECU that at some point in the next 10 seconds you wouldn't mind if you could go a bit faster, please.

author: ejeffrey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2021, 04:38:53 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on November 17, 2021, 04:46:36 amMy understanding is that 20000 mi is actually probably fine for full synthetic oil in most engines and 5000 mi is total overkill (at least after the break in service). The main problem is the oil filter not the oil itself which can break down over time depending on conditions. If you go to a shop it makes sense to change both but if you just do it yourself changing out the oil filter and topping up the oil is fine, only draining the oil much less often.That said, even with long oil change intervals I have never heard of claims that engines, even small turbo engines generically require piston ring replacement on any time table.Head gasket failures are also not normal. Certain models and brands may be known for pattern failures in either. I think at one point Audi was saying that consuming 500 ml of oil every 3000 miles was "acceptable." As a whole however it isn't a standard thing. Most modern car engines will go hundreds of thousands of miles without any service requiring removing the cylinder head.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2021, 06:12:08 pm
content: Quote from: ejeffrey on November 18, 2021, 04:38:53 pmFrom what I understand the main cause of piston rings getting stuck resulting in oil use is not letting the engine work enough (*). Direct injection gasoline engines seem to be specifically prone to this problem. I have driven several cars over 320k km / 200k miles but never had to have an engine rebuild or experienced excessive oil use. Far from it. But then again, I do my homework before buying a car in order to avoid cars with expensive problems. And I let the engine work every now and then.* From several mechanics I've read that replacing the rings isn't necessary in many cases, just fill the cylinders with diesel and let it soak for a day or so to dissolve the dirt and then flush for a final clean.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2021, 06:29:17 pm
content: Quote from: ejeffrey on November 18, 2021, 04:38:53 pmIf I waited 20,000 miles that would be several years to a decade depending on which of my cars, I think it would leak out or blow past the seals in the turbo well before that interval. Maybe it would be fine to go longer but oil is relatively cheap and turbos really cook it, especially the old oil cooled turbo on my 240, the later ones have a water jacket and run a LOT cooler.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2021, 08:01:30 pm
content: It is probably due to the short-cycling the engine does, but the oil change interval on the Golf GTE is half that of the standard Golf, at 1yr/10,000 mile intervals. The electric motor periodically turns the engine over, even if not recently used, to keep parts lubricated. About once every few minutes.

author: MadScientist
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2021, 08:35:51 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on November 16, 2021, 07:07:28 pmHome charging has little future , in the uk the typical house limit is 60kw , and hence a 32 amp circuit is the max feasible limit. ( in fact for 32A you’ll need priority switching in some cases ) in fact many installers will only fit 16a EVSE in many cases.Modern EVs currently have 60 kWh and trending towards 100 kWh batteries. , recharging 60kwh , on a 32A circuit takes 8 hours ( including taper charging ) , recharging 100kWh will be practically impossible in the typical night time available ( usually 12 -6am )Hence home charging will be a fill-in activityRemember the average mileage per week in the uk is very low. Most users drive short distances each day. With 60-100kWh batteries these users might only charge once a fortnight. These are most likely to take place at very high energy delivery sites.Furthermore various grid studies show the primary concern of grid managers vis a vie EV charging is high density home charging at coordinated times like night time. The typically suburban estate ( with driveways ) has an electrical infrastructure simply incapable of supporting high density coordinated charging. The cost and sheer inconvenience makes it virtually impossible to upgrade this houses.The future therefore is high energy specialised charging sites , rather exactly as petrol is done today. Home charging will be incidental.On top of that smart metering will in time penalise home charging of EVs , both by increasing the cost of the time of charge where co-ordinated charging is happening , ie night time. Smart meters are largely grid/ generator promoted as they want to monetised inelastic electricity usage times.

author: MadScientist
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2021, 08:44:26 pm
content: Quote from: rstofer on November 16, 2021, 01:13:25 amNo , average high energy charge times are way less then the average shopping trip, and low energy charging is far too long. The supermarket idea isn’t working and the trend is dedicated high energy sites rather like petrol filling stations. Not least because the energy feed requirements need dedicated sites. Furthermore EVs charging needs canopies and weather protection and supermarkets are not that interestedIreland has comprehensive fast charging for 5 years. The trend has been away from shops and rather into filling station forecourts especially high throughput motorway service areas.

author: MadScientist
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2021, 08:47:55 pm
content: Quote from: Miyuki on November 16, 2021, 09:16:51 amModern engines last much longer then their predecessors , in my dads time an engine was clapped out at 100,000 miles, these days 200,000 is not uncommon even more , and no new engines don’t need pistons rings at 100,000 miles that’s BS.

author: MadScientist
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2021, 08:53:51 pm
content: Quote from: Marco on November 16, 2021, 10:25:42 amLarge scale Slow charging is not an option in general , firstly urban planners are determined to limit long term street parking in urban areas, in most cases on street car parking charges are not suspended and hence long term charging becomes really expensive. Thirdly, cabling infrastructure isn’t up to the job. Lastly increasing battery capacity renders slow charging as merely opportunistic rather then required as a significant proportion of the battery cannot be returned in the typical time available.Grid operators will tell you it’s far easier to feed a limited number of very high demand sites , these will usually be new builds on green field sites. Feeding a lot of medium consumption areas , like on street charging is far more disruptive and costly.Currently around me the trend is 6-10 fast chargers in big motorway junction sites. These are all installed by commercial companies. ( ionity etc )

author: MadScientist
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2021, 08:58:18 pm
content: Quote from: dunkemhigh on November 14, 2021, 09:23:51 pmBus , train , ass and cart.

author: MadScientist
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2021, 09:00:46 pm
content: Quote from: Faringdon on November 14, 2021, 10:04:46 pmHydrogen is the Betamax of EV . It’s BEVs because that’s where policy makers , urban planners and motor car companies have placed their bets.There is no HFCEV policy , no grants , because ...... there is no HFCEV cars.

author: MadScientist
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2021, 09:05:16 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on November 13, 2021, 07:16:42 pmIt is as trivial as a stroke of a pen, Ireland eliminated overnight , the benefit in kind on employer provided EV charging . Life’s not fair , but then Ireland has a tax rebated bike to work scheme for 10;years ( yiu buy a bike income tax free ) and an income tax rebated bus/rail scheme for annual ticket holders. It’s was EVs that were being discriminated against

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2021, 09:41:50 pm
content: Quote from: MadScientist on November 18, 2021, 08:35:51 pmAbsolute nonsense. Home charging is very clearly the future, at least for those in the suburbs, Tesla has said so themselves and it is what literally every single one of the EV owners I know does and it works just fine. A 32A circuit can charge at around 15 miles of range per hour and that is way more than adequate for most driving people do. The problem is you are looking at this from a gas (petrol) mentality where you drive around for days until the tank is almost empty and then fill it all up at once. EV drivers don't do that, in most cases they plug in whenever/wherever the opportunity exists and top up. Someone may take a long trip and deplete most of their charge in which case they would stop at a fast charger to fill up, but most of the time they will just charge at home. Without the ability to charge at home there is very little point in owning an EV at all.Also something is very wrong with your math, 60kW is 250A at 240V which is quite a bit higher than the standard 200A 240V residential service panels we have here in the USA, and here it is very common to install a 50 or even 70A 240V EV charging circuit. The Tesla wall charger supports up to 70A as I recall. The sum rating of the individual branch circuits is far higher than the rating of the main here, and I think that is the case in the UK too. I was thinking the typical UK service was more like 100A 240V, which is still more than adequate for a 50A or more EV charger.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2021, 10:03:03 pm
content: Quote from: MadScientist on November 18, 2021, 08:35:51 pmI assume you mean 60A, to which I say, "bollocks!" I have never lived in a home with less than 100A service. 60A homes do exist, but most of them are supplied with 80A cabling and DNOs will install 80A fuses FOR FREE, if the customer requests so. That gives you an 18kW supply. DNOs will let you have two EV chargers on 80A if you pass diversity, usually one 32A and one 16A, but sometimes you can have two limited to 20-24A if they support it.Most of continental Europe has at least 3x16A service (~11kW) and 3x32A (~22kW) is also quite common. The 3ph 16A people might need to limit themselves to 3.6kW single phase charging. That's still plenty fast for most.Quote from: MadScientist on November 18, 2021, 08:35:51 pmThese statements are contradictory. Most EVs won't need to charge up much or at all on a given night because their batteries are big and their mileages are low. And yet you think that we'll need to use rapid chargers for all EVs? The reality is, EV charging will mostly happen at home, or parked on the street using slow AC chargers. 3.6kW is enough for 80% of the population every night, 7.2kW would be enough for 95% (my estimation). Some EVs support more, Audi e-tron supports 40A single phase, and early Model S in Europe could charge at 63A single phase too, but I believe they have dropped that because the demand is so low.Quote from: MadScientist on November 18, 2021, 08:35:51 pmThe typical suburban estate actually has sufficient capacity to supply 23kW to every home, it's the downstream DNO capacity where there are shortages.The uptake of EVs will be over 10-15 years so DNOs will have sufficient time to upgrade. No doubt it will be a lot of work but heat pumps are another driver of this type of demand.Quote from: MadScientist on November 18, 2021, 08:35:51 pmWell even on normal rates my (PH)EV is still much cheaper than petrol to run, about 5-6p/mile compared to 15p/mile.Regarding cheap rates at night. Some say they will go, others not so sure. Personally I think as renewable energy becomes more common they will stay but the pricing will vary. Some nights no benefit others the price will plunge.Right now there's roughly a 50% difference between daytime usage and nighttime usage. If everyone switched over to EVs and average mileages didn't change, then overall electrical energy usage would go up by about 20%. There would still be a night time gap.The major advantage of a smart grid with EVs is it's dispatchable. If there's excess demand you tell all the EVs to soak up now and drop the rates to incentivise this usage. When there's a demand shortfall you reduce or stop charging altogether. Customers can override, but they'll pay a bit more. Some places in the US have a scheme where you can have your air-con scaled back in times of peak demand, this is exactly the same. And in the end, as long as your car has enough range for your next journey for the day, do you really care when it charges?

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2021, 10:09:53 pm
content: Several of the EV drivers I know charge almost exclusively from a 15A 120V receptacle because it's what they have available, the charger draws 13A and charges at about 5 miles of range per hour. The capacity of the batter is irrelevant, the primary charger need only supply enough energy to cover the average amount consumed between nightly charges and commutes over about 20 miles a day round trip are relatively uncommon. It's certainly nice to have faster options but they are only needed occasionally. Fast charging will degrade the battery faster than say <10kW.

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2021, 10:14:39 pm
content: Quote from: MadScientist on November 18, 2021, 08:53:51 pmWhich they can only get away with when there is an extreme limit in available homes AND voters don't wake up to the fact they do have power. Sure, if those kinds of idiots are sufficiently politically entrenched normal people might have to vote for someone Trumpian but if you push them far enough that is what they do.Like 1% of people wants that for their housing, until they get a family and then they don't want it any more either.As I said, any time you lay fiber you could in theory also lay down the cabling and pits for chargers at essentially no cost. Then you can just finish it when the distribution network is ready. For a competent government, high density roadside charging would not have been a problem.

author: ejeffrey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2021, 12:37:31 am
content: Quote from: MadScientist on November 18, 2021, 08:35:51 pmWtf?Home charging is going to be the dominant way people with EVs and homes charge always.QuoteThat is fine. 16 a seems a little low but acceptable.QuoteWho cares?QuoteOr they could do what basically everyone with a driveway and an EV does which is to charge every night. As long as they don't do back to back 300+ km journeys without a few days/nights to get back near full you don't have to worry and it doesn't matter if you can get a full charge overnight. As long as you can comfortably charge more than an average days use in a single night it's fine. 32 amps is plenty for that and even 16A is often sufficient.QuoteNobody who has the option to home charge is ever going to do more than a incidental fraction of their charging at high power dedicated chargers. Even if they could charge in the 5 minutes it takes to pump gas. It is a waste of time, money and effort. Fast charging is an important option to have for long trips or back to back range limiting trips but not something people want to do regularly.If you can't do the majority of your charging at home (or at work if you have that option) then an EV probably just isn't for you yet. Which is fine. We are far from saturating the potential EV drivers who can and infrastructure is rapidly expanding and will eventually be better at accommodating those who can't.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2021, 02:23:05 am
content: QuoteThere's a Tesla super-charging thingy down the road from here. About 20 berths, I think. I have only ever seen one car in there and every other time I've been past it is empty. My local supermarket, OTOH, has 4 berths and there is always at least one car on charge there.

author: Nusa
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2021, 03:10:11 am
content: Tesla is planning to open up their charging network to non-Tesla cars, which will be a game-changer for the lesser brands. They're starting a pilot program in the Netherlands to see how it goes congestion-wise.

author: richard.cs
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2021, 10:38:13 am
content: Quote from: tom66 on November 18, 2021, 10:03:03 pmNot across the whole estate at once though. A typical UK suburban estate might supply 80 properties per phase from a 500 kVA transformer. This might be as 4 to 6 three-phase cables radiating out from the substation with individual cables fused at 300-400 A each. That transformer might thermally cope with 600 kVA in cold weather and maybe 1 MW for an hour.Mass EV home charging is a solvable problem, but it will need a combination of infrastructure upgrades and smarter charging, e.g. load management according to local substation load and temperature. The DNOs are aware of this, and are working on it. Well kinda, they're complaining about the cost and I suspect hoping the UK government will pay for it.

author: Miyuki
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2021, 11:41:53 pm
content: btw I was looking at the EV charging tariff and I think most of the continental European countries have similarit offers at least 8 hours (as they say) between 6pm and 8am of very cheap electricity (even a little cheaper than classic peak/off-peak)so if you let the utility company say when and how fast you are charging, you get electricity at about 50% of the common price

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2021, 11:51:52 pm
content: Quote from: Miyuki on November 19, 2021, 11:41:53 pmYup. My electricity is cheap from 8.30pm to 1.30am. I get it at 5.5p/kWh, normal price is ~15p/kWh.I actually manage to shift about 45% of my demand into the off-peak period, saving ~£400/year in electricity cost. Since the electricity is cheap for whatever. So tumble dryer, dishwasher, and car all run in this period, if needed. I actively avoid running them any other time and plan the washing machine usage so I can use the off peak electricity as much as possible.

author: MadScientist
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 20, 2021, 09:02:28 pm
content: Unlike many here I actually own a BEV with 220,000km on it after 4 years. Sure I charge at home , on night rate , because it’s a 30 kWh and I need all of it available the following day. It starts at 1am and finishers around 5 :30 am on a 32A ( sorry re the kW mistype) EVSE circuit. My dishwasher and washing machine run every night from the start of night rate till 12:45 am. My hot water heating begins after the EV has finally finished. If I needed more range the reality is I’m running out of time.Today as most batteries are relatively small. , home charging is of course feasible. But as batteries increases towards 100kwh and beyond and as we see bigger and heavier BEVs. I don’t see domestic capacities being sufficient , leaving aside the DNO issues.As smart chargers are rolling out I’m seeing 24 hour rolling rate changes. This is no good to me , my car charging time period is fixed as are many others. Electricity providers know smart tarrifing is for their benefit not yours.

author: richard.cs
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 20, 2021, 10:01:12 pm
content: EV batteries getting bigger doesn't really cause a problem for home charging unless people also drive more miles per day. If you changed from your 30 kWh EV to a 100 kWh one and kept the same driving pattern you'd not need any more energy overnight.

author: ogden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 20, 2021, 10:22:51 pm
content: Quote from: richard.cs on November 20, 2021, 10:01:12 pmRight. Most likely you won't do long trips every day. If you actually do - better reconsider your choice oftransportationoccupation.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 21, 2021, 05:01:51 am
content: Even if you only have 8 hours per night to charge that's around 120 miles per day of range, even if you assume people start driving ludicrously large and heavy EVs that can only charge 10 miles per hour from a 32A circuit that's still 80 miles a day. Figure most people will also have considerably more charging time available over the weekend assuming they aren't running around all weekend. The *vast* majority of people will have more than enough charging time, especially considering 8 hours a night is a very conservative estimate, 12+ hours is more likely. The only thing that matters is the average daily consumption vs the average daily recharge time. If you drive an unusually large amount you might visit a high powered charging station every now and then to get caught up but you'd still want to charge at home as often as practical. The more you charge at home the less of the more expensive electricity you'd need to buy from the public fast charger.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 21, 2021, 09:59:59 am
content: QuoteThat's something to think about. Overnight charging is cheap now because it's a dead period when people are mostly asleep and demand is low. Once EV charging is common, demand will be high and the price wil rise accordingly. It could get to the point where daytime charging (when everyone is driving) is cheaper!

author: Miyuki
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 21, 2021, 11:36:35 am
content: Quote from: dunkemhigh on November 21, 2021, 09:59:59 amHow many hours a day do you drive 1, 2, do not tell me you drive more than 2 hours a dayThe rest of the time car just sits somewhere and can scavenge low demand/renewable production peaks from the networkGrid is enough "smart" for it even todayAnd how long it will take till BEV will be the majority? 10, 15 years?

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 21, 2021, 12:20:02 pm
content: Quote from: Miyuki on November 21, 2021, 11:36:35 amThis - almost every EV comes with a 'smart app'. There is even a reverse-engineered API for my vehicle:https://github.com/trocotronic/weconnectI have been using this to start and stop charging remotely with charging to a specific state of charge (as the car always charges to 100% when on the timer function, and I don't always need 100%, even with a PHEV.)The connectivity of the vehicle to the grid will be very important.

author: not1xor1
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 21, 2021, 03:56:13 pm
content: the last nail on the coffinhttps://theconversation.com/we-must-rapidly-decarbonise-road-transport-but-hydrogens-not-the-answer-166830Quote

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 21, 2021, 04:59:56 pm
content: QuoteWhat's driving got to do with it? The thing is where the car is, and daytime it is likely not at home. Doesn't matter where on Earth it is - the point is it is not at home sucking up premium rate electricity. When it IS at home, it is likely to be cheap rate electricity.So, as an energy supplier, you look at your graphs and think, "Hang on, we are giving them cheap energy when we don't have that much available and could sell it twice over because everyone wants to charge their EV. WTF? Why is it cheap rate?"If the car is at <your workplace> the chances are it's not getting a discount on juice because businesses are kind of known for needing lots of power, all at the same time, which is why daytime usage isn't cheap rate. If you plug in there and never charge at home, this little bit of the discussion doesn't involve you. I will just remind you that not a million messages ago the overriding feeling is thehomecharging is going to be The Thing.

author: Miyuki
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 21, 2021, 05:44:42 pm
content: A common day in Europe is like thisAs solars kick in during the day prices fallSo "they" have plenty of electricity that needs to be used somewhere and EV charging is a great opportunity

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 21, 2021, 08:51:25 pm
content: 1. What are those nice blue and red lines? Means nothing unless we know what they represent.2. Doesn't matter if solar is fantastic enough to provide zero-cost charging during the day. We, or at least I, am not talking about daytime charging. I am talking about charging overnight. Blimey, doesn't anyone actually read this stuff of do y'all just look at pretty letters and then hit quote?

author: richard.cs
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 21, 2021, 09:05:46 pm
content: 1. Her axes are labelled. It's Euros per MWh (red) and the other (blue) I think is demand in the slightly non obvious units of MWh per 1 hour bin which evens out to MW.2. You just said workplace charging won't happen because electricity is expensive in the day, hence her response about daytime demand and prices.

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 21, 2021, 09:08:59 pm
content: Quote from: dunkemhigh on November 21, 2021, 04:59:56 pmLots is pushing it, compared to 24/7 industry it's very tame. It's just enough to make a difference price wise now with 24/7 fossil/nuclear and wind.Between night time charging, increased electrical heating (morning/evening) and increased PV, that extra daytime usage from the service industry will likely get swamped in the future. The cheapest power will be in the middle of the day.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 21, 2021, 09:10:36 pm
content: QuoteQuote the exact part of the post where I said that, please.You can't, because I didn't.

author: richard.cs
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 21, 2021, 09:21:59 pm
content: Quote from: dunkemhigh on November 21, 2021, 09:10:36 pmMy apologies, what you actually said was:Quote from: dunkemhigh on November 21, 2021, 04:59:56 pmMy point remains, you brought up daytime, and Miyuki responded to that.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 21, 2021, 09:52:04 pm
content: Thank you.

author: not1xor1
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 25, 2021, 04:00:29 pm
content: here is another article against hydrogen:Hydrogen for ground transportation and heating is a bad idea

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 25, 2021, 04:57:57 pm
content: Quote from: richard.cs on November 21, 2021, 09:21:59 pmIt is already happening for many government service organizations and, were I still working, we would have been a leader in the installation of a bunch of charging stations. It would have cost a LOT of money but the company would have done it anyway.As I said earlier in this thread, we wouldn't have wanted people taking time off of task in order to swap parking places so we would have more than enough stations for everybody.Some companies are like that!

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 25, 2021, 07:40:50 pm
content: Everyone seems to be assuming that we retain the status quo ie generation capacity =~ supply.The more likely outcome is generation capacity >> supply, especially if renewables are used. This is because renewables can have poor yield, so if you want a nearly pure renewable grid you will need many times more capacity. For the UK, think something like 150GW wind and 20-30GW solar. (Current capacity is about 25GW wind and 14GW solar - though much of the solar capacity is domestic/workplace installs which aren't strictly suppliers.)The *side effect* is at many times during the day there will be gigawatts of extra capacity available that is otherwise going to be thrown away, so the cost per kWh will plummet. This will create many times in the day when it is very cheap in the day to use energy and times in the day when it is much more expensive as supply is constrained and we begin to use storage (batteries, hydrogen, pumped) or go to backup fossil fuels (probably with carbon capture)This is what the National Grid and other country's network distributors are planning on, it is not a matter of if but when we have this. At the current rate wind power is being installed we are adding ca 3-5GW per year and the rate has historically been exponential, so this is likely to be the situation in a decade or two.Hence the push for smart metering because without smart meters you cannot dynamically price energy, and there is no way to shift load around, the Grid would love to be able to tell your dishwasher to run at the best time, and your car charger. There is a Dutch company that will pay you a small amount every month if you let them control when your car charges, as they can use this to reduce demand charges that the grid would otherwise face.

author: ogden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 25, 2021, 07:51:50 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on November 25, 2021, 07:40:50 pmGood point. Wind/solar excess capacity could be used to "store" energy into hydrogen. However I still believe that hydrogen will be long haul transporation "fuel" while (ever improving) "Battery EV" will dominate consumer market.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 25, 2021, 09:23:45 pm
content: QuoteNot necessarily. Someone has to pay for that excess capacity, so prices may stay the same for bright days but go UP for 'normal' days.You might get cheap days now because they don't know what to do with the excess. But that's likely because it's not very common. Once it is common, the suppliers may well invest in storage so they can store the excess and play back when it's needed (think gigabatteries, pumped storage, etc). Of course, someone has to pay for that storage so, again, prices may well go up.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 25, 2021, 09:28:33 pm
content: Quote from: dunkemhigh on November 25, 2021, 09:23:45 pmI agree. In the NL electricity prices are pretty constant and the difference between day & night tariff is neglectible. AFAIK the reason is a cable between the Netherlands and Norway where the excess energy is stored & retrieved using hydro. Effectively there is as much electricity being exported as being imported through this particular cable.But there is a limit to the capacity in Norway and the cable. Hydrogen plants are being build and planned in several locations to store electricity from wind turbines.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 25, 2021, 11:33:13 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on November 25, 2021, 09:28:33 pmCompletely failing to see the pointWith a grid that's dependent on renewables (which is where most European countries are heading because fusion power doesn't exist yet, nuclear is too expensive and fossil fuels cause climate warming) you're going to have times when there is excess supply.It'll almost always be cheaper to sell that within the country - though, of course, the export market will be booming too. But, it'll create huge incentives to shift your usage to when energy is in good supply but in demand is low. Storing it will also be expensive - hydrogen is a very lossy storage method. I don't doubt some will be stored, but I think a great deal will be used, too.EVs will absolutely take advantage of this, being parked up 95-98% of the time.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2021, 12:12:22 am
content: QuoteActually, I think you are assuming altruism where there will actually be capitalistic greediness.We've been promised effectively free power for decades. If ever fusion does work, it's not going to be anywhere near free (probably more expensive than now), but there are always optimists telling us different. Renewables are the same, just quicker to spoil our dreams.Just like when we buy, let's say, a microscope we don't pay just for the materials. There's the machines that build them to pay for, the people that put them together and setup them need paying, the infrastructure to take your money and deliver the goods, and a healthy profit on top. Electricity could be actually free but we would still have to pay to use it.Edit: it's not unknown for manufacturers to trash products rather than let them be sold off for nothing or very little. Why should the power companies be any different?

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2021, 12:34:28 am
content: Quote from: tom66 on November 25, 2021, 11:33:13 pmIf that where true, it would have already happened. The reality is that nuclear, gas and coal power stations need to have a base load in order to keep running. Getting rid of that base load is so problematic that in the UK the electricity is given away almost for free (I've seen tariffs mentiond around 4 pence) and it makes it commercially viable to install long wires to other countries where they have hydro storage facilities. IOW: what you are proposing is a problem which already exists for a long time. Renewable energy is only going to shift the source away from coal and gas but does not solve the actual problem. In the end you'll need storage because that is more cost effective than giving electricity away for free (or even pay to get rid of it).And no, nuclear isn't too expensive; coal and gas are too cheap. This decade we'll see a large boom of new nuclear power plants being build all over Europe combined with hydrogen storage to give these power stations a base load.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2021, 12:43:05 am
content: QuoteRenewables don't. Got too much power? Trim the turbines, disconnect the panels.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2021, 01:00:01 am
content: Quote from: dunkemhigh on November 26, 2021, 12:43:05 amIt doesn't work that way. Currently many of those installations have garantees that whatever they produce is to be absorbed by the grid. Another problem with turning wind turbines and solar panels off is that the electricity they produce is going to be more expensive because the ROI per time period has to remain the same in order to make the interest payments.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2021, 10:48:52 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on November 26, 2021, 01:00:01 amThey're only paid these guarantees because we need a base load now. They'll be obsolete, much like coal power plants have gone obsolete in many parts of the world.We don't actually need a base load when we have sufficient renewable energy + storage to guarantee that there will not be a shortage in X years. The model for the UK was something like 3.5x nominal average load with 3 hours of storage guarantees no shortage (at current usage rates) for 50 years. In times of surplus, the electricity will be dirt cheap. There is a risk of Texas-style shortages with a pure renewable grid, but those are worsened by having fossil-fuel plants that can't black start. Renewable grids can self-start, whereas fossil fuel plants require well maintained diesel generators.Wind power is profitable around £25/MWhr, right now; that equates to about 2.5p/kWh + distribution costs, or probably a consumer cost of around 6-7p/kWh (~8 EUR-cents).

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2021, 04:25:50 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on November 26, 2021, 10:48:52 amNo. It is because otherwise wind and solar are not profitable so governments are giving the companies that invest into wind and solar guarantees that whatever they produce will be bought AND for a minimum price. Electricity prices may even go negative but the tax payer is paying nevertheless in order to make sure the solar and wind companies are getting the minimum price per kWh.

author: Miyuki
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2021, 04:47:54 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on November 26, 2021, 04:25:50 pmThe truth is European "market" is weird as they try to push renewables by force and pay guaranteed fixed prices, sometimes really high compared to the end-user price just to promote more installations even in places without good conditions

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2021, 05:01:06 pm
content: Yes and it's not "weird". It's just plain political stupidity at its best.I don't think this is restricted to the EU either. The frantic push for "renewable energy" (whatever it is and however renewable it really is) makes many countries all over the world make extremely stupid and damaging decisions.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2021, 05:18:35 pm
content: Quote from: Miyuki on November 26, 2021, 04:47:54 pmIt is not weird. It is subsidizing development and mass deployment of new technology. For a lot of new technologies the initial market is too risky for companies to invest into. If deemed worthy, governments can step in to carry part of the R&D costs and cover part of the initial risks. Contrary to popular believe this does not mean governments (at least in Europe) hand out bags with money without any strings attached. The aim is to give companies a stepping stone to introduce new technologies that can become profitable and in turn create jobs and economic growth. For example: there are hundreds of subsidy programs for all kinds of new technology development available across Europe.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2021, 07:49:56 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on November 26, 2021, 05:18:35 pmThat's a cute way of putting it. Would you happen to be involved in one of those projects yourself?

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2021, 08:19:26 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on November 26, 2021, 07:49:56 pmEvery company that does some form of R&D in the Netherlands is receiving some kind of government subsidy. This has been the case for the past several decades that I have been working as an electronics & firmware design engineer. And that is very likely the case for all countries / companies in Europe. So if you are involved in R&D then part of your salary is coming from such subsidies (unless your employer likes to pay more salaries and more taxes).

author: strawberry
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2021, 09:17:27 pm
content: why no one talk about oxygen usage(people cant survive without)fossil energy source is same as hydrogen(is produced by splitting natural gas in H and carbon components and no oxygen) they both use oxygen in combustion or some fancy cellfor some reason carbon neutral was first invented by some fossil energy company

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2021, 09:19:52 pm
content: Quote from: strawberry on November 26, 2021, 09:17:27 pmBecause there is more than enough of oxygen. Humanity has thrown how many trillion metric tonnes of CO2 in the air and the concentration went from 0.2% to 0.4%. With oxygen being around 16% (IIRC) it should be clear that oxygen usage is of no concern at all.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2021, 10:06:41 pm
content: The main commercial source for hydrogen gas at present is natural gas (methane), but I believe that most of the hydrogen on earth is contained in water (bound to oxygen).

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2021, 10:13:50 pm
content: Quote from: strawberry on November 26, 2021, 09:17:27 pmTypically, green hydrogen is produced from water and electricity, electrolysis, so oxygen will be released from that. Hydrogen produced from natural gas by steam reforming is oxygen neutral.The atmosphere is also about 21% oxygen. Even the most aggressive fossil fuel use has 'only' increased CO2 from 0.035% to 0.045%. It is hard to imagine how we could e.g. decrease oxygen from 21% to 19%, which would begin to present issues for humans.

author: strawberry
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 28, 2021, 05:29:40 am
content: mostly tap water could be in short supplyor sea water desalination plantswithout closed loop cant be green nor sustainablebp is green, soend of consumerism100% manual dismantlingreusing/repurposing used metal parts in other areasif tesla turns out to be piggy bank?

author: not1xor1
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 28, 2021, 06:39:04 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on November 26, 2021, 04:25:50 pmhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_subsidy:Quotein 2017 fossil fuel subsides were still 3-4 times more than renewable energy oneshttps://www.irena.org/publications/2020/Apr/Energy-Subsidies-2020see also:https://www.iea.org/topics/energy-subsidies

author: MadScientist
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 26, 2022, 08:09:38 pm
content: This argument sounds a lot like the proponents of Betamax arguing it’s merits long after the industry had basically abandoned the format.Car companies are going BEV. End of discussionThose arguing about EV issues have clearly never owned one. I have both a diesel van and an electric car. My EV has 275,000km on it and my van has 290,000km. In all the time Ive never either run out of diesel nor electricity and that’s the experience of vast majority of peopleAs for comments about not having a driveway , most people in dense housing situations , which proper town planning , don’t need cars , both my adult kids living in major European capitals don’t have cars , nor do their peer group. Both rent them as needed now and again.The average car commute is 14 km per day. With current EV ranges approaching 500 km , that charging about once a fortnight , easily done at a local fast charging station. No need for a driveway and not to mention many workplaces have fitted charging points , PAYPAL HQ has 50 in its parking lot near me.Electric motors are fast , powerful , way better then the 19th century bag of bolts. Once you drive all electric you rarely go back.Embrace it , it’s going to be all encompassing

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 26, 2022, 08:40:45 pm
content: I am ambivalent about EV - one would be cool for some parts of my life and a drag for others. But...QuoteI don't know anyone that rents a car except on holidays in foreign parts. Easily match by those that take the car with them.QuoteHow many cars in total park there? 50 is OK when EV is still a bit niche, but when everyone wants to be charging up at work 50 would be replicating the sugar scrums currently seen in Russia.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 26, 2022, 09:15:04 pm
content: Quote from: MadScientist on March 26, 2022, 08:09:38 pmYeah, no..First EU recognizes that there is no infrastructure to charge all vehicles even if you magically convert them to BEV. Large projects to do so are underway but will not be enough. Therefore there is strategic plan to run at least 30-40% of vehicles on fuel cells/hydrogen. Fuel cell/hydrogen is their strategic choice for range extension. There are EU commission decisions on this. Hydrogen is coming. You can buy fuel cell Toyota today.If you live in city there is no charging on the street. And that is not gonna change soon.Your solution to that is that I don't deserve to own a car?Where I live rentals are prohibitively expensive, 4-5 days of rent equals a monthly payment to own one. So people just buy cars and don't drive them much..Not everybody work where they live, and most cities in the world have bad public transport anywhere outside inner city limits. Or you have lines that go in such a way that you need to travel 10 km one way and then 10 km back to get to place that is 3km from you if cut across the town directly..Most industrial parks are on city periphery and by Murphy always there where there is no direct line..In order for these things to work cities should be much better planned than they are. Now they kind of, sort of, work for many, but not for everybody..EV's are better tech. They are. Love them. And I can't have them.If parking in front of my building had chargers I would get EV today. But in front of my building I'm lucky to find a parking space in a first place..Not to mention that I can buy a decent fully working used gasoline car for 2000€.Brave new world practically mean that many poor people won't be having a car anymore...

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 26, 2022, 09:53:30 pm
content: QuoteHydrogen for cars just seems like a boondoggle.No one besides Toyota and a few startups is really looking at it. (Hyundai has a FCEV too, however they've discontinued development of the next-generation model, so make of that what you like.)Arguably the hydrogen car doesn't really solve the infrastructure problems that EVs have. EVs have a lower infrastructure requirement simply because ~50% can be charged overnight on a driveway. And probably another 10-20% of those could be charged at work instead of in public. So the problem really comes to providing charging to those who park on the street every night.Don't disagree that this is a difficult problem to solve but many streets in the UK already have lamp post/EV parking bays... whilst there are a grand total of 10 hydrogen refuelling stations in the UK (of which 2 have been broken for over two years.)I do think that hydrogen will have a good place in powering heavy goods vehicles, buses, trains (when direct electrification is impractical) and in the future it might even work for aircraft.Edit - fix typo

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 26, 2022, 10:03:17 pm
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on March 26, 2022, 09:15:04 pmI've said that a few times already, but I guess most people do not want to hear it. For sure there is no infrastructure for that, and we don't produce enough electricity anyway. There is no workable plan to convert all currently circulating vehicles to electricity. The only way of doing it is to drastically decrease the number of circulating vehicles.But I can understand that many would rather believe it will work out, so that they won't lose anything in the process. But uh...

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 26, 2022, 10:36:23 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on March 26, 2022, 10:03:17 pmBecause it's wrong.You could convert every petrol/diesel car to EV overnight in the UK and see an uptick of 20% in total demand. Now if you actually did that you might have brownouts and shortages but it's not happening overnight, good cars last 15+ years and current car sales for EVs will not replace that for some time.So you will realistically need to increase capacity by 2-3% per year to accommodate EVs assuming total fleet replacement by say 2050.New wind power plants are going online at about 4-5GW per year at the moment for the UK - that's about 10% of the capacity per year being added. More than enough!Trucks, buses, trains? More questionable they will be converted to EV by say 2030-2035, but they are also easier to charge with typically defined depot locations and routes. Haven't the time to work out if these change the equations materially, but I doubt it. It seems most proposals focus on cars, they are easier. Trucks/buses may need hydrogen.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 26, 2022, 10:37:04 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on March 26, 2022, 09:53:30 pmYou misunderstand. Putting chargers on the street is not biggest problem.There is NO electrical infrastructure in the country to power them.My country has several hydro powerplants and one nuclear. We actually, today, have VERY green electricity and have surplus of electricity.But we would need to build one or two more nuclear plants like one we already have to satisfy needed capacity...And then create triple the capacity in distribution network, from large high voltage country wide to the end user transformers on the block...Provided we do that overnight using Star Trek replicators and unlimited funds, our, mostly old cities, don't have space for that infrastructure..Hydrogen pump is just that. A pump. That can be put where convenient.They don't have to be where I can leave a car overnight. Because you simply go there and top up hydrogen in minutes. Same convenience as current carbon based fuels..Everybody forgets one of most important weapons of WWII was jerry can..First cars made were electric. Gasoline and diesels won on convenience, nothing else...

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 27, 2022, 12:02:00 am
content: With many technical advances, the countries that start moving the first are usually the ones that end up lagging behind. Using hydrogen makes much more sense compared to investing huge amounts of money in -what basically is- a decentralised infrastructure. Sure you can put BEV charging point next to every parking space, but what will be their utilisation?

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 27, 2022, 12:02:14 am
content: QuoteIn 2030 (that's only 8 years away) you won't be able to buy new non-EV cars. So the first question is what's the increase in the car population (because in 8 years time they will all be EVs)? And the answer appears to be 15%, so that's stuffed your 2-3% prediction to start with.But that's (sorry to keep repeating this, but it is REALLY close) just 8 years away. If you were to buy a new car now would you buy a diesel? How about in 5 years? I think you'd be losing money hand over fist if you did that because the resale value would be rather low - with petro-prices going up and the stuff being phased out, why would anyone want to take on a non-EV vehicle after 2030?How about buying a used car before then? There is a huge incentive to not get lumbered with the last of the petro-dinosaurs, and massive encouragement to go EV. Someone is going to be left holding the ball and I bet a lot of normal people (that is, not eco-warriors or flash gits) are going to try and not let it be them. EV owership is likely to increase at a higher rate than expected, I reckon.----https://www.gov.uk/government/news/government-takes-historic-step-towards-net-zero-with-end-of-sale-of-new-petrol-and-diesel-cars-by-2030https://tradingeconomics.com/united-kingdom/car-registrations

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 27, 2022, 12:51:28 am
content: Quote from: dunkemhigh on March 27, 2022, 12:02:14 amThose are pipe dreams. Crack pipe dreams. If they stop selling new cars that are not EV, and without infrastructure, people will not buy new cars as much as government would like. They will keep old clunkers until they ban them altogether, as in you cannot get on a street without EV. And if they do that before everything EV is ready and cheap enough, well, welcome to the revolution.... You think people will just give up the fact that someone took away cars from a half of population?

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 27, 2022, 01:31:46 am
content: QuoteApparently not for many manufacturers who are going all-electric anyway:Jaguar, Bentley,General Motors, BMW Mini,Volvo,Ford (Europe),Volkswagen,Toyota,Nissan,Mercedes,Renault, Audi, etc.

author: MadScientist
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 27, 2022, 07:21:15 am
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on March 26, 2022, 09:15:04 pmManufacturers , town planners , environmentalists, and motoring pundits are not interested in people looking to buy cars for 2000€. Your opinion is not mainstream , thanks for your opinion but it’s statistically an outlier and while amusing , is not representative of what IS happening and WILL happen

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 27, 2022, 09:01:55 am
content: Quote from: dunkemhigh on March 27, 2022, 01:31:46 amIf you actually read the articles you linked to, you'd seen that it is not the end of the internal combustion engine. A hybrid is also an electric car in car maker's & government's speak. You need to keep in mind that the average CO2 output of cars needs to get lower and lower. At some point the only way to do this is hybrid technology in order to keep a car affordable (and usefull to those to whom a BEV is useless). So in the end the car makers aren't ending pure ICE cars, it is the EU rules that make non-hybrid ICE cars impossible to sell (without hefty fines).Ofcourse the car makers add a thick layer of marketing wankery on top of it and give it a positive spin to make it look like they care about the environment. But in reality they don't. Several of the European car makers you listed where involved in a pact where they agreed not to compete on emissions and make their cars just good enough to pass regulations.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 27, 2022, 09:09:35 am
content: Quote from: MadScientist on March 27, 2022, 07:21:15 amIs this one of those (in royal purple)?:Yes I think best would be that anybody that cannot afford Tesla should be banned from the country and extradited to one of those poor countries. They like those loosers (that is why they have so much of them, isn't it?) so they don't spoil our day... We don't need them here, they are such a drag...LOL.. Elitist much? You have no concept what word mainstream means in this context. If you want to apply green energy cars to anybody and everybody, that means not only minority number of of green enthusiasts and people that have more than enough money to buy anything and are limited only by choice. Wealthy green enthusiast can buy themselves a complete new lifestyle. What do you recon how many people in, for instance USA, are in such a group? 2% ? 5%?Rest of them are not important.We'll deport them or run over with a tank...LOL buddy, reasoning like you shown is reason why revolutions happen...BEV with decent performance exist more than 15-20 years now. They show no significant penetration to market because:- they are too expensive for majority of population- they are not sustainable solution - if all of us get one we wouldn't be able to drive them because couldn't charge them. If you want to grow crops, you need to provide watering to the land before starting production. Simple as that.- most people don really care about green energy. Many don't even think about it and there are many that think it is a conspiracy theory. Those two groups make up staggeringly high percentage of population. Those without any opinion would buy electric if it weren't more expensive. They don't care. They are not pro or contra anything, but simply cannot afford it. They are neck deep in rent and credits as they are and stretched thin as it is.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 27, 2022, 09:27:53 am
content: Quote from: dunkemhigh on March 27, 2022, 12:02:14 amWell no, petrol cars last 15 years with good maintenance, so even if it's only possible to buy an EV from 2030 or so (2032 in the UK, 2035 in most of Europe) there will still be petrol cars on the road until 2045-2050 or so. I expect as we approach 2045 it will become even more difficult to use such a car, there will be less access to fuel and probably outright bans in city centres and so on. But they will exist.This "power grid will be overloaded" statement just doesn't make sense. At most we're looking at 20% additional demand for electricity*, but it will happen over about 15-20 years. So even my 2-3% per year increase is way on the high side. It's more likely closer to 1%. Electricity consumption in the UK and the USA has actually fallen in the last decade. Why do we believe there will be rolling blackouts?Not to mention, EVs don't need to charge at 6pm, like when you might put the oven on, which creates a lot of demand. EVs can charge at 2am, parked on your driveway, when there's much less demand on the grid. Grid operators love this - smooth, continuous demand is easier to manage than peaks in the evening.*Calculation: 9000 miles pa for typical European driver. VW e-Golf or equivalent getting 3.5mi/kWh after charger losses. 2500kWh additional usage. 25 million cars in UK. 62.5TWh additional usage. UK electricity generation for 2019: 323.7TWh. ~19.3%.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 27, 2022, 11:13:18 am
content: Quote from: tom66 on March 27, 2022, 09:27:53 amIf you carve out only private passenger transport (in a country with a high use of public transport) and ignore all other transport then that is true, around 15-20% above current generation. But the countrywide figures look much worse:https://www.iea.org/sankey/#?c=United%20Kingdom&s=Final%20consumption426TWh of energy used in road transport, with electric vehicles expected to be more efficient bringing that down by a factor of 3 or so (for direct BEV).Against around 300TWh of generation annually makes an increase of almost 50% in generation being required if all road transport is moved to direct electricity use, worse if they go through an intermediate step as this thread considers.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 27, 2022, 03:37:40 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on March 27, 2022, 09:27:53 amCan you please get me a driveway? And while you are at it, thousands of people that live in my neighbourhood would like one as well. And make it two driveways for the households with two cars.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 27, 2022, 05:19:36 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on March 27, 2022, 03:37:40 pmWell, I addressed that yes there is an infrastructure issue for street parked EVs right now - so yes, probably not the best time to buy an EV if you don't have off-street parking of some kind. But, about 50% of people -do-, so they should have much less of an issue. Besides, charging at 2am would still be perfectly possible for on-street parking: delayed start is a thing.And, why would you need two driveways for two cars? They don't need to be charged at the same time. You don't need to fill your petrol cars at the same time.

author: MadScientist
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 27, 2022, 05:33:48 pm
content: This idea that future EV will be charged at home , is entirely misplaced , firstly increasingly powerful chargers will not be available at home and range and recharge tine limits , will limit the useability of home chargingResidents of apartments etc or those without “ driveways “ will simply use high powered fast charging stations which will replace filling stations.Nobody needs a driveway to use a EV.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 27, 2022, 05:58:40 pm
content: A 7.2kW home charger (230V, 32A - standard 'level 2' charger) is enough to charge at around 30 miles of range per hour. So parked from 6pm to 6am, 12 hours, it adds 360 miles of range, if you use every minute of that to charge and have a battery big enough to store that all...In what world are you doing 360 miles - or 131000 miles - per year? There's absolutely no need for a home charger to top up more than your commute plus a bit extra. I do about 50 miles per day when commuting and a 2.3kW (230V, 10A) granny charger would be enough in a 6 hour period. I only have a PHEV, so about half of that is electric and the other half is petrol, so my car is done in 3 hours. Fits nicely in the off peak period so I haven't bothered increasing the charging power.If anything one of the huge benefits to owning an EV is it frees you from the need to charge up in public, it charges just like your phone does... overnight, while you sleep, you need to do nothing but plug it in.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 27, 2022, 06:15:42 pm
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on March 27, 2022, 12:51:28 amYes.

author: MadScientist
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 27, 2022, 06:49:52 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on March 27, 2022, 05:58:40 pmAgain you can charge at centralised high power charging stations , while home charging is “ nice to have “ , a driveway or home charging is not required to own an EV.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 27, 2022, 06:57:03 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on March 27, 2022, 05:19:36 pmWho says I don't need to charge both cars? First you say delayed charging is a thing but how to charge two cars when only one can be parked on a driveway? I surely don't want to get out of bed in the middle of the night to swap the cars. I'm also not very fond of needing to have to plug a car in all the time (which actually is a nuisance to many BEV owners after a while).No, the whole 'charging in front of your doorstep' is just a temporary crutch. Just like people had gas cans at home to fuel the early ICE cars. Think about how low the utilisation is of the chargers to do actual charging. It means a lot of hardware is sitting idle for most of the time but that hardware still needs to be paid for in full. My estimation is that a street level charging point costs between 5k and 10k euro over the time span of 10 years (installation, maintenance, power delivery, administration, etc costs) while it serves only 2 or 3 cars. Those costs need to be recouped from the people that charge these cars. An 'at home' charging point is cheaper but including installation it can easely hit the 1k euro mark. Not to mention the grid upgrades needed to feed enough power into residential areas; these will need to be paid for and overnight charging won't work if everyone is doing that due to limited capacity. Charging an EV is not the kind of load you want to have on a large scale in residential areas.If you look at the bigger picture you'll see the current crop of the BEVs and 'at home' charging will be obsolete in 10 to 20 years. Better (solid state) batteries will allow fast charging (like 700km of range in 3 minutes) at what we call 'gas stations' nowadays and those either have storage in the form of batteries / hydrogen OR a fat connection to the grid. I would not be surprised if the BEVs you can buy 20 years from now are not even capable of 'at home' charging because it is cheaper to interface to fast DC charging only. And with widespread use of hydrogen looming at the horizon it makes sense to run cars from hydrogen instead of converting it into electricity at a gas station or at a storage facility. But before that the price of the technology will need to drop significantly. I'm sure it will at some point just like internet access and mobile phones but it takes a long time. Until then the early adopters are footing the bill. Countries that are currently lagging behind will likely to become ahead by skipping the 'at home charging' stage entirely.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 27, 2022, 09:12:01 pm
content: I don't disagree that charging speeds will get faster; CCS v4 is due out soon at 500kW. But, charging at home is an advantage. Why would I want to go out and charge my car? It's time out of my day I need to take. Of course, it doesn't work for every application, sometimes you need 50kWh in 30 minutes. But often you don't - so I think the majority of EV charging will continue to be 'slow'.One thing I could see is onboard AC charging being deleted and it being included in the wall charging units. It's a compromise to carry it in the car, but there are benefits in having the cooling system already there for the motor. It would probably depend on the cost of one of those units. A home DC charging unit from Bosch for instance is still 10k euros, so I think the onboard charger will still win (even if you are paying for it in the sticker price for the car, you may want to charge at multiple AC-only locations.)Even if a public charger costs 10kEUR to install (let's go with your estimate). Let us say it serves those 3 cars at 9000 miles per annum. So over 10 years it 'provided' 270,000 miles of electricity. Or about 67MWh of electricity. That's a 13 euro cent per kWh markup over 10 years. Hardly devastating.On-street charging will be a public resource and like petrol stations, once there's enough demand it will just be installed, either by municipalities or by private companies. Look at e.g. Ubitricity in London, it's a private company doing exactly this (230V 20A on street charging).

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 27, 2022, 10:08:47 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on March 27, 2022, 03:37:40 pmCan I please park a caravan in your on street parking and live there? (or rent it out to some 3rd party)You want something, then pay for it.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2022, 05:57:14 am
content: Quote from: MadScientist on March 27, 2022, 06:49:52 pmHome charging is the single biggest advantage of having an EV. IMO there is very little point in owning one if this is not an option for you, just get a regular gas/diesel car or hybrid. Yes it's possible to get by without it, my dad did, but if you can't charge at home you are missing out on the best feature they offer, the fact that you start out each day with a full charge and never have to stop anywhere to fill up. I know quite a few people with EVs now and every single one of them charges it primarily at home.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2022, 08:40:43 am
content: Quote from: tom66 on March 27, 2022, 09:12:01 pmIt is still a huge price increase of about 2.6 cents per km. An equavalent of paying 52 eurocents cents extra per liter of gas (assuming driving an efficient hybrid).

author: emece67
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2022, 10:42:32 am
content: .

author: MadScientist
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2022, 11:07:17 am
content: Again the drive way and home charging is simply not the issue , undoubtably it’s popular now because it’s cheaper , it’s very unclear over time if the running costs of EVs will remain below ICE , I believe ultimately via road pricing and selective electricity tariffs it’s will probably be as expensive to run as ICE is todayThe primary driver of EV public policy is the decarbonisation of private transport. Governments don’t want to make it cheaper in fact they want the make private motoring more expensive to encourage transfers to public transport.For example there is no concession where I am in road side parking rates for EVs because public policy is to discourage people bringing in private cars into the city centre. BEV s will not enable cheaper motoring I’m sure of that.

author: MadScientist
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2022, 11:11:17 am
content: Quote from: james_s on March 28, 2022, 05:57:14 amYet I have met loads of people with EVs at fast charger sites that have no domestic charging solution so I’d query your logic. It all depends on usage , if you have 20 km commute and 400km range , charging at home is irelevant as is the weekly overhead in visiting a fast charger , whereas I had a 130 km daily commute and relied heavily on nightly domestic charging

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2022, 04:28:59 pm
content: QuoteWhich means you need to allow time to go there and then sit waiting while it charges, which is a drag. And as they get more popular you'll go there expecting to waste time waiting for it to charge, only to find there isn't a charger free so you go home and plan another trip sometime.You may think it's not an issue, but during the recent petrol shortages it was a MASSIVE bummer to find somewhere flogging the stuff and which didn't have a round-the-block queue. Just thinking about going out again to try and get some juice was seriously aggravating. You're suggesting EV charging won't be like that, but the only way it won't is it you can fast charge batteries, like in 5 mins or so. That's not to prevent the wait-while-charge bummer but to have a greater chance of finding a charger free.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2022, 05:07:19 pm
content: Quote from: MadScientist on March 28, 2022, 11:11:17 amIt's actually quite the opposite of that. If you have only a 20km commute then you can easily charge at home with even a little 120V 15A charger, no need to even install a 240V 30-50A circuit for higher power charging because you're only draining a small portion of the charge every day. If you have an exceptionally long commute or need to take a particularly long trip then you'll need faster charging to be practical. Tesla has said so themselves, the supercharger stations are intended to be used when you really need to charge up quickly, most charging is intended to be at home. Have you ever actually spent any time driving an EV? From what you say I suspect not, because if you had, my point about the home charging would be immediately obvious. As I said, every single person I know that has an EV charges primarily at home, every one of them, 100%. I don't know why someone would buy an electric car if they had nowhere to charge it at home when fuel powered cars are readily available and a bit cheaper. You just don't seem to get it and I don't know why this is a difficult concept to grasp.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2022, 11:27:33 pm
content: You make it sound so easy but having a BEV ready to go at all times, means you need to plug it in (&out) all the time. That isn't an improvement in a time where modern cars have features like keyless entry where the number of things to do before driving away gets minimised.At one of my employers one of my projects was an instrumented car that could also run the computers from mains power when the engine was off. Easy when it is parked inside where you certainly can do without the exhaust fumes. To me having to plug it in & out every time was a nuisance and more than once I drove off without disconnecting it first OR forgot to reconnect it. Fortunately I had made the mains connection using a plug that would prevent any damage from driving away with the mains plugged in.The key point here is that making sure a BEV is ready to go whenever you want takes planning in advance which is much harder to do in a busy life compared to taking care of a car when it is actually needed. When I take a trip with a car (long or short) I don't fuel it up the night before. I do that along the way. There is always a gas station along the way and it takes a couple of minutes at most; not worth to put in extra planning effort. There is enough other stuff to plan.BTW: one of my recent purchases is a corded screw driver / drill that runs from mains power. I got fed up with having to charge the batteries hours before using my cordless drill.

author: richard.cs
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2022, 03:06:32 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on March 28, 2022, 11:27:33 pmI don't know about you but I do have to plan with my petrol car. I often find myself visiting friends on a Sunday evening and have to consciously decide if I have enough petrol for the round trip and if needed buy petrol on the way (or the day before if I know I am going to be busy) because around here all the petrol stations shut early on a Sunday. At least charge points tend to be available 24 hours.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2022, 03:40:12 pm
content: Over here the majority of the petrol stations are open for fueling 24/7 (many of them are unmanned anyway with a debit/credit card terminal). I very much prefer those because I can pay much quicker compared to going into the shop.

author: richard.cs
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2022, 03:46:47 pm
content: Here even the ones with card prepayment at the pump tend to only be open when there is someone at the kiosk, though as I understand it unmanned ones are permitted. It may be mostly to do with the margins on fuel being low, most petrol stations here make the majority of their money in incidental sales (snacks, cigarettes, etc.) so there's little point them being open when "just" selling fuel.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2022, 04:47:08 pm
content: QuoteNo idea about permissions but the Asda near here has a 24/7 forecourt which is pay-at-pump only outside what seems to be office hours - it's like that even when the main shop is still open. No-one in the kiosk or anywhere near.The local Tesco doesn't even have a kiosk. It's effectively a huge above-ground tank wrapped in cladding (I saw it being built) with pay-at-pump only available. No staff anywhere.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2022, 07:39:46 pm
content: Here plenty of gas pumps work 24/7. Not all, but many.I have additional thing to add to the mix. We are tourist country.During summer season, we need to have both gasoline and in this case EV chargers capacity for all those tourists that pour in. Since we are in the middle of EU, most tourists come with the car...There are some little places by the sea where population is 10k but they carry 50-60 thousands of people over summer.Also Croatia has unique problem of having thousands of islands. Basic electricity distribution is a pain in a first place.Saving grace is that there are many smaller islands that have no vehicles. Some of hose actually use all electric fleet for public services and solar charging with local storage battery installation. On one island they boost power grid with large solar installation.So where it is possible and smart, people already use green energy. Even in a small and not very rich country like mine.But infrastructure is not in place for a country wide deployment of BEV and ban of liquid/gas fueled vehicles. That is a simple fact. And unlike simple and quick job of buying a piece of land, digging in a tank and basically dropping on a top a ready made pump facility, that I've seen done in few months, installing 100ths of thousands chargers on streets and charging stations with 10s of thousands of new transformer stations and building a new grid capacity on every level is a25 years infrastructure project. Without even mentioning additional generation capacity on country level. Those are major projects..I'm not arguing BEV or any kind of green energy vehicles are not good. If I could charge at home, and would have one that has 400km range, it would fill all my short and long range needs. In that case I would buy it in a hearthbeat.But as it is now, no. I have to make frequent trips to our capital. That's cca. 350 km round trip. And I do it randomly, when I need to support customers. So it is sometimes 3 days in a row and sometimes once in 2 weeks.So I either have to charge at home every night and be ready every day, or I loose huge amount of time catering to stupid charging.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2022, 07:46:33 pm
content: Quote from: dunkemhigh on March 29, 2022, 04:47:08 pmI think there's some regulation that these pumping stations need to be monitored, that's why they don't activate immediately when you lift the nozzle. Someone is probably checking CCTV somewhere, but you could serve ten petrol stations with one CCTV attendant pretty easily, so it may well all be remote. Not certain but that would be my guess.Anyway, it's absolutely possible to conceive of situations where EVs are less convenient than petrol cars as well as the reverse. I would argue that a car that charges up overnight so it always has pretty much 80% SoC is about as convenient as you can get. There are of course situations where you might have to go on a long trip just after a work commute - but I am convinced that inconvenience is far outweighed by the need to visit a petrol station every 2-3 weeks.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2022, 08:47:29 pm
content: Quote from: richard.cs on March 29, 2022, 03:06:32 pmHe will argue endlessly about these impossible challenges facing EV owners that will make them completely unworkable, despite the inconvenient fact that millions of EV owners have already solved these "problems" years ago and they are a complete non-issue for hundreds of millions of people around the world. It happens in every single EV related thread. "I have these unusual edge cases that make it impractical for me therefor it will not work for anyone!"

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2022, 08:51:39 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on March 29, 2022, 07:46:33 pmI've said this before but I would happily give up the ability to use gas (petrol) stations entirely if I could trickle gas into my car overnight via a little tube hung on the wall in my garage and have a full tank every morning. The last time I drove through more than a whole tank of gas in a single day was around 20 years ago, I can rent different car if I ever need to do that again. I simply don't care if it takes hours to fill up if it can be done while I'm parked at home, my car spends the majority of the time in my garage or driveway just sitting there.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2022, 09:52:55 pm
content: QuoteCould well be. I noticed the Tesco one has CCTV but they are pointing at the queues rather than pumps (which is not to say there isn't one aimed there, just that I can't see one). But I don't think the nozzle thing is right since the nozzle won't work until you've entered your card details (and had them accepted). IME there doesn't seem to be any delay but, of course, that could be due to them getting ready to hit the button while I've been fumbling my loyalty care and debit cards

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2022, 10:23:47 pm
content: The pumps are not being enabled manually either way. It just takes time for the system to register what is going on.What happens when you enter your debit/credit card on an unmanned station: the pump is enabled for a certain amount that is being reserved from your card. The typical amount I've seen is 150 euro (or less if there is less money in your account). The pump is then enabled to give out fuel up to that amount. When you need less than that amount, the remaining amount is credited and the final amount is being withdrawn from your account.

author: emece67
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2022, 10:25:58 pm
content: .

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2022, 10:32:38 pm
content: Quote from: emece67 on March 29, 2022, 10:25:58 pmH2 cars are 35MPa or 70MPa fuelled, so require equipment about the size of a car to just pressurise that. Rather difficult to imagine that happening at home.One method would be to charge up the small battery that most H2 cars have, if you didn't expect to produce much energy. I seem to recall the Toyota Mirai has a 2kWh Li-Ion battery on board which is used to buffer the output from the fuel cell. Fuel cells tend to be rather lethargic in ramping up production so the battery fills in the demand, and of course offers regen braking too....but then that's basically just a plug in hydrogen EV, which is a weird concept.

author: Miyuki
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2022, 07:21:04 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on March 29, 2022, 10:32:38 pm35MPa is not a huge issueLook at Scuba tanks, they are commonly pressured to 30MPa with a small portable unitI know it works with air so it is a safer mediumBut technically it is not an issue at all

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2022, 07:29:58 pm
content: Quote from: Miyuki on March 30, 2022, 07:21:04 pmHave you seen the tanks in the Mirai and Nexo? They operate at 70MPa, rather than 35, but they are huge tanks with a small capacity. Hydrogen is much harder to deal with than air for scuba tanks. Those tiny hydrogen molecules leak through things that seal up tightly for air. The safety requirements are on a different scale, too. If an air tank blows up its dangerous, but leaks are mostly harmless. Anything that isn't just right with hydrogen is dangerous.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2022, 07:49:56 pm
content: Quote from: Miyuki on March 30, 2022, 07:21:04 pmHydrogen is cryogenic at 35/70MPa. That's nothing like air.Have you seen the equipment at hydrogen stations? The equipment is enormous - and expensive. Could it be reduced in size? Almost certainly, but it is still not a trivial piece of equipment. Not to mention the power consumption. This source suggests a power consumption of 140-300kW for a compressor motor.https://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy14osti/58564.pdf(pg 24) Perhaps you could reduce that by reducing the hydrogen production rate, but it is still likely to be substantial.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2022, 07:58:30 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on March 30, 2022, 07:49:56 pmBut these installations are setup for large amounts of hydrogen. You can buy >2MW air compressors as well. It just depends on how much volume you need to compress in which amount of time. The report also lists costs per kg of hydrogen. Those are much more interesting but are likely outdated due to the age of the report. The high number is US $1.5 per kg which translates to about US $0.02 per km assuming travelling a conservative 80km (*) per kg of hydrogen.* Toyota claims their hydrogen fuel cell vehicles travel 100km on 1kg of hydrogen. WLTP results for Mirai show 0.79kg per 100km.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2022, 08:27:52 pm
content: I view the fuel cell as the same as LPG (propane): Fine for fleet use from a central service yard, not very practical elsewhere. City buses, maybe taxis (if Uber doesn't wipe them out), other governmental vehicles - these will all work fine on a fuel cell. I don't see the day when there will be fuel cell charging stations on street corners.Even our grocery store has installed about a dozen charging stations. I haven't been to the store since COVID started but one day I'll look into it.With an 8 kW solar array, I was driving my Spark EV for $0.05/mile.

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2022, 08:42:58 pm
content: If no other solution is found, I could see cryogenic hydrogen replace cryogenic LNG for long distance trucking.Cryogenic LNG is a proven system, the increased losses and cooling requirements for hydrogen will make it more expensive, but it's still all in the same ballpark. If push comes to shove and fossil is plain banned the options are limited.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2022, 09:17:46 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on March 30, 2022, 07:58:30 pmActually they are not. Try looking at videos on YouTube of people trying the hydrogen stations in California. They either arrive when things are very quiet, and fill up in 5 minutes, or they arrive when the station is busy, and have a long wait because it can take 20 to 30 minutes to fill each car when the system doesn't have time to recover between cars.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2022, 09:29:40 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on March 30, 2022, 09:17:46 pmAnd what kind of compressor is installed at such a station? Without numbers you can't make meaningfull comparisons.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2022, 10:30:55 pm
content: Well, that source I linked suggests a production rate of 63kg/h for a compressor of 177kW. If we assume every car is filled empty to full (the Mirai holds up to 5kg though an undisclosed amount is 'reserved'), then the station can do about 10-12 cars per hour without downtime. I assume that if you want to have something close to a petrol station flow rate you'd need about 60 cars per hour, so you're looking at 1MW grid connections for the compressors -alone-. That kind of makes the argument that superchargers will present grid connectivity issues a bit moot. That's also ~15kWh of embedded energy per fill-up on compressor power alone, which surely further impacts efficiency.I do think hydrogen has a good future in trucking, trains, longer-distance buses and possibly even aircraft; big batteries for these applications are expensive, or for aircraft downright impractical. For cars though, hydrogen has never made much sense. There are only a few edge cases where it makes sense but the additional cost and infrastructure required just rule it out. Above anything else the fact that only Toyota is really following the technology says it more than anything else IMO.

author: emece67
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2022, 10:37:00 pm
content: .

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2022, 11:09:06 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on March 30, 2022, 10:30:55 pmHydrogen for aircraft *might* make sense, but I suspect it will only be practical to burn it rather than using a fuel cell to generate electricity. The latter might work in a light plane but I don't think it's going to scale up to the many megawatts required to propel an airliner. Hydrogen for cars is already dead and has been for years, the battle is already over and BEV is absolutely dominating the scene. As far as I know there are only a small handful of hydrogen filling stations in my entire country and all of them are located in California, a backwards place where political idealism and fantasy almost always trumps practical considerations.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2022, 12:46:01 am
content: Quote from: tom66 on March 30, 2022, 10:30:55 pmCost wise the impact of compressing the hydrogen is minimal so efficiency doesn't matter here. As I wrote before: thinking in efficiency leads to nowhere. Think in cost per km instead.When you have hydrogen on-site it makes no sense to have a big grid connection. Convert it to electricity on-site.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2022, 01:07:58 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on March 31, 2022, 12:46:01 amYou're never going to have hydrogen on-site, it isn't something that is naturally occurring in pure form, you have to "make" it by extracting it from other compounds. It makes even less sense to use hydrogen for land based energy storage than it does to use it to fuel moving vehicles. At least with a vehicle energy density, weight and filling time matter to varying degrees, on land you're better off using a big pile of batteries, even if they're something bulky and heavy like lead acid.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2022, 01:49:02 am
content: Quote from: james_s on March 31, 2022, 01:07:58 amYou may think so but how are you going to get the batteries charged somewhere high up a mountain or in the middle of nowhere? Hydrogen can be delivered by truck everywhere as long as there is a road. Also hydrogen is cheaper for storage for periods over 8 hours compared to batteries. Looking at what is being developed and rolled out at the moment, hydrogen is going to play a big part in energy delivery and storage anyway.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2022, 07:42:35 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on March 31, 2022, 12:46:01 amConvert hydrogen into electricity on-site - at an efficiency of 60% and with all associated costs of doing so - instead of using a grid connection directly?Why? Hydrogen as storage might make some degree of sense (e.g. large grid-scale storage of excess renewables), but grid connections are far cheaper, let someone else worry about doing the conversion.Cost per km, hydrogen will always be more expensive than electricity if hydrogen is produced from electricity. Even when it's produced from natural gas it's about the cost of diesel currently (per km).

author: Miyuki
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2022, 07:49:14 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on March 31, 2022, 01:49:02 amAlso, it is "easy" to have months worth of energy in hydrogenBatteries are good for small scale (phones, tools cars) or quick cycles, like day/night cycleBut for long-term storage, like weeks or months. Other methods like hydrogen or maybe flow batteries to some scale are needed.There is no way to have a battery for 2 months worth of energy next to a house.Also, there is no way for a truck or ship to have a battery when you want to replace high-efficiency ICE which is commonly over 40% and can reach over 50% efficiency for long hauls

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2022, 12:01:40 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on March 31, 2022, 07:42:35 amNo. If you look at electricity prices and public charging costs it is easy to see that the charging infrastructure costs make up for the majority of the costs. At a fast charger I need to pay about 80 eurocents per kWh. That kWh costs 6 cents or so to buy in bulk.Looking at the plans that are in motion and what is being planned where it comes to hydrogen production by countries that have large deserts, it is too soon to claim anything. Keep in mind that a solar panel in a desert in North Africa or North Australia gets more than twice the amount of energy from the sun compared to a panel located somewhere in the UK or the NL. So theoretically a kWh from a solar panel in the desert costs half.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2022, 12:19:36 am
content: Quote from: Miyuki on March 31, 2022, 07:49:14 amWhy would you ever need to store 2 months of energy next to a house? Talk about an edge case! For emergency energy it's hard to beat liquid fuel, diesel can be stored on site for years and easily converted into electricity.Ships? I don't think anything is going to replace oil for a very long time, and when you look at the whole cycle from producing hydrogen to turning it back into electricity the efficiency is abysmal.Hydrogen is dead, dead dead. It was a stopgap that had a handful of people excited decades ago.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2022, 01:04:21 am
content: QuoteShips run on really dirty stuff though, don't they? They could improve massively and still use oil, albeit not the dead cheap almost unprocessed sort.There have been some interesting wind-powered ships (or, at least, wind assisted). Again, not going to replace oil but it would cut down on its use, which is better than nowt.

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2022, 01:12:10 am
content: Quote from: james_s on April 03, 2022, 12:19:36 amGiven the choice ... but lets say we arrive at a point where there's a trillion dollar liquid hydrogen market and some regulators interested in drumming up extra business for it, there's always a chance the choice will be taken away. Or maybe courts in some countries hold governments to environmental promises come hell or high water ... like is happening in my country with NOx emissions (the NOx emission limits are economically crippling, but the courts are holding the government to their promises).Necessity is the mother of invention.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2022, 01:40:51 am
content: Quote from: Marco on April 03, 2022, 01:12:10 amBut there never will be. Hydrogen isn't a fuel, you can't mine it, you have to produce it either by cracking hydrocarbons or electrolysis of water and neither process is efficient. The only way hydrogen even begins to make sense is if you have a massive surplus of cheap electricity.

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2022, 02:00:23 am
content: Quote from: james_s on April 03, 2022, 01:40:51 amEfficiency and cheap are relative to alternatives, in this case fossil fuel, take away the alternatives and suddenly things change.All the other alternatives to fossil fuel are shitshows too. With peak fertilizer already hitting I don't think biofuel will do much better.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2022, 02:01:02 am
content: Quote from: james_s on April 03, 2022, 01:40:51 amYes. It would just be a convenient (yet not efficient) way of storing energy for later use.You can add "clean" to "surplus" and "cheap"... because for the time being at least, most of the electricity produced worldwide comes from... fossil fuels. And I'm not sure the combined efficiencies of the whole chain from producing hydrogen to the fuel cells to the electric engines would be in favor of this. I have significant doubts.Short of some spectacular breakthrough I'm not aware of, it's only going to thappen from nuclear fusion, and we are still pretty far away from that goal.We're not going to get there by planting more wind turbines and solar panels.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2022, 02:24:17 am
content: Quote from: james_s on April 03, 2022, 01:40:51 amLets see, places with surplus excess electricity, based on consistent negative market prices:US: 4% of the time "Plentiful electricity turns wholesale prices negative":https://doi.org/10.1016/j.adapen.2021.100073Australia: 4-5% of all trading intervals:https://www.energycouncil.com.au/analysis/increases-in-negative-prices-is-it-a-positive/Europe:Quote from:https://extranet.acer.europa.eu/en/Electricity/Market%20monitoring/Documents_Public/Key%20developments%20-%20MMR%202021_Final.pdfI'd say negative prices are "cheap".Good, hydrogen (and other energy "inefficient" storage) can make sense economically and environmentally.Quote from: SiliconWizard on April 03, 2022, 02:01:02 amThats pretty much exactly how we get "there" (having cheap power and vibrant/diverse energy storage).

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2022, 04:21:38 am
content: Quote from: emece67 on March 30, 2022, 10:37:00 pmI have never seen a filling station that deals with LPG. Maybe in Los Angeles or one of the other big cities but not anywhere near here in the California Central Valley. There may be a few but they are far from common.Around here, the only privileged cars are battery only EVs. Lawmakers finally figured out that hybrid EVs are nonsense and they no longer have access to HOV lanes without multiple occupants.OTOH, my Chevy Bolt has to have placards on all 4 corners (or some such nonsense) to tell the Highway Patrol that I can use the HOV lanes. There's no way in the world I am going to deface my car with those placards.The good news is that I am retired and have no interest in the HOV lanes. I don't commute anywhere.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2022, 04:35:18 am
content: Quote from: rstofer on April 03, 2022, 04:21:38 amThat's totally stupid. All they'd have to do is issue special license plates for eligible cars. Why on earth would they come up with a separate placard, much less multiple copies?

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2022, 11:38:20 am
content: The solution in the UK is simple: green stripe on licence plate.

author: Miyuki
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2022, 02:06:43 pm
content: Quote from: rstofer on April 03, 2022, 04:21:38 amIt is an EU tax thing as here is ~100% tax on gasoline and little on LPG so it costs roughly half the priceBut now are pushed more towards CNG, and LPG is considered dirtybut it might change quickly as we know what is happening nowAnd that CNG is stored also at about 200 bars and you an easy get home trickle filling station. It was in the past mentioned as one of the benefits.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2022, 02:10:55 pm
content: The normal taxicabs in Tokyo have used LPG for a long time to reduce air pollution and to take up too much space in the trunk to handle American luggage.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2022, 06:11:16 pm
content: Quote from: Someone on April 03, 2022, 02:24:17 amYes, exactly.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2022, 10:24:02 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on April 03, 2022, 06:11:16 pmSo you agree now? Solar/wind is a way to produce cheap energy that supports energy storage such as hydrogen? I'm not seeing any alternatives that are cheaper, neither are electricity markets:https://www.csiro.au/en/news/news-releases/2020/renewables-still-the-cheapest-new-build-power-in-australiaWhich explicitly considers electrolytic production of Hydrogen becoming a viable economic proposal.Complete agreement? Or would you like to clairfy where "there" is:Quote from: SiliconWizard on April 03, 2022, 02:01:02 am

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2022, 11:51:07 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on April 03, 2022, 02:01:02 amIn the end fossil fuels are taken out of the equation so the price of those don't matter. If you google around a bit about costs of producing and transporting hydrogen then you'll find projections that estimate the cost of hydrogen made from wind & solar to retail around US $5 per kg somewhere by 2050. Producing hydrogen is one of the few alternative revenue streams for countries that export fossil fuels. The alternative is to lose a significant amount of a country's income. For example: currently over 25% of the export value of Australia are fossil fuels. As a country you can't afford to lose that much.