Drill Press Question - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: bostonman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 05, 2019, 05:32:51 pm
content: I acquired an old drill press.Collins 12-speedModel #: 1413/TG12019The sticker to indicate belt speed positions is still in good shape, however, I don't have a manual for belt replacement numbers. The two belts seem stretched since the motor bangs nearly all the way to full position whenever I start it. My assumption is: the motor should always be pressed against the spring for full tension.Sadly, upon receiving it, both belts were off, and they differ slightly in size. So I'm uncertain which belt goes on which pulley, but it seems I got it correct since both were too loose one way and tighter the other.Does anyone have a manual for this or the same model who can tell me the replacement belt numbers?Thanks

author: Stray Electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 05, 2019, 07:09:29 pm
content: I would post some pictures. Someone might recognize the DP under a different name or model number. Also try posting on Garage Journal forum if you haven't already. Take you belts to a good auto or tractor supply supply store like NAPA (not a DIY store) they can frequently identify old belts and they can tell you the next smaller size. I did that with some belts from a mower made in 1967 and the auto parts people were very helpful and allowed me to bring the belts back several times and swap them until we found the exact size that I needed.

author: bob91343
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 05, 2019, 07:19:06 pm
content: I agree that the best approach is to find the belt that works best. The pulley depth determines the belt width. The pulley diameters and spacing determine belt length.Calculating belt length is not simple, since it depends on many hard to use factors. Belt tension is important, and belts will stretch under tension so you need to account for that.The advice to bring the old belts to a store that sells belts is good advice. You won't benefit much from a manual for the unit because the belts probably are only identified by someone's part number that is specific to the manufacturer of the unit. The manual probably will state that you apply enough tension to avoid slippage under load without going so high as to cause excessive bearing wear or drag on the motor. This is not something you can measure but you will need some common sense and a dash of experience.

author: Nusa
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 05, 2019, 07:33:30 pm
content: Several ways to go about it:https://www.durabelt.com/beltlengthcalculator.phpBut yeah, a picture wouldn't hurt.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 05, 2019, 09:48:44 pm
content: You should be able to get a workable solution in one trip to the parts store. You can measure the clearance before moving the motor INTO the spring reaches a stop or end of clearance. You want to end up with at least one belt thickness (height of the V) clearance so that you will be able to change the belts. Take the difference between that point and where the current belts sit and that tells you how much shorter you want them. A starting assumption is that they are equally stretched so you take half that distance out of each belt.

author: Stray Electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 06, 2019, 12:06:32 am
content: It actually gets a great deal more complicated than that. First, since the pulleys are different sizes the belt isn't wrapped exactly half way around each one. There's more wrap on the larger pulley than the smaller one. And if the DP has stepped pulleys then the amount of wrap on each pulley changes with every step. Then add in the fact that as the belt stretches under load and as it wears (not much but it still has an effect) the belt will pull deeper into the groove of the pulleys. Trust me, I've tried to calculate the length required but it just didn't work! I was "close" but not close enough. I ended up making three return trips to the supply store to exchange belts to get the proper sized ones. Edit to add: they also make belts in different widths! "A" belts as used in automotive applications are narrower and are considered to be for "fractional horsepower" use. "B" belts are wider, stretch less and used to transmit more power. Not knowing that, I used "A" belts because they were cheaper but they lasted about 20 minutes before they shredded. I took the remains back to the store and started trying various size "B" belts. (Since B belts are wider they don't down in the pulleys as far so they have to be longer than the A belts.) When I finally got the right size B belts, they lasted for years.

author: langwadt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 06, 2019, 12:14:47 am
content: twist link belt?

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 06, 2019, 12:45:19 am
content: Since this topic has started ... do you guys (or gals) know how to "weld" back one of those orange round belts? I had one custom-made for my drill press a long time ago and it broke at the place where they melted it together. I didn't see how they did it. Anyone ever repair one?

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 06, 2019, 03:04:55 am
content: Quote from: langwadt on September 06, 2019, 12:14:47 amSome folks swear by them. Others swear at them. If you don't know which camp you are in they are worth a try. If you end up liking them they will save you time in fitting.

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 06, 2019, 08:39:45 am
content: Quote from: xrunner on September 06, 2019, 12:45:19 amYes, sure. That orange polyurethane belt is supplied in reels for custom belt making. It's simple heat welding.The easiest way is to wrap a some of copper or brass sheet around your soldering iron bit to form a hot blade. It's also easier if you have something with a V shaped groove to align the belt ends.Bring the two ends up to the heated blade so that they melt nicely. Remove the blade and immediately push the two melted ends together and wait for it to cool. Trim the excess Polyurethane that has squeezed out around the joint with sharp cutters and you're done.It;s easiest with three hands... or two people. You will loose a few mm in the process.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 06, 2019, 10:56:47 am
content: I would suggest going to cnczone forum, there are more mechanics and operators hanging out

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 06, 2019, 11:06:43 am
content: the quickest way is push the motor to desired (center) location and pinch the belt with your two fingers, thats the length you want. now bring that belt to local hardware store and show them and say i want this belt size and this length (pinched). local store seller will have trouble understanding parts number or even you explain 5 pages to them (at least in our location), you show them the example unit, they will go to their store at the back and bring you the exact unit in a minute. maybe a little longer or a little bit shorter, but that will do the trick, ymmv.

author: mzzj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 06, 2019, 12:53:16 pm
content: Quote from: Stray Electron on September 06, 2019, 12:06:32 amThere is no less than 5! different ways to measure and specify the belt length and if you are not aware of the different versions you probably end up using the wrong method.https://ww2.gates.com/IF/facts/documents/Gf000204.pdf

author: bostonman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 06, 2019, 02:57:32 pm
content: I've attached a picture of the drill press.

author: MarkF
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 06, 2019, 03:34:41 pm
content: A picture of the inside would be much more helpful...It sounds like you have three pulleys? In which case, my Delta the motor pulley pulls and tensions both belts.Are you saying the center pulley is reaching its movement limit or the motor pulley reaching its limit?Either way if you think they are stretched, take them to your hardware store and get ones that are a little smaller. If they have a similar belt profile, I don't think the exact part is that important.Here is what my Delta looks like:

author: bostonman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 06, 2019, 03:44:52 pm
content: That's basically how mine looks. I've noticed the motor can swing the entire distance when first powered and then bounces back a bit. From my assumption, the motor should be pushed against the spring at all times, however, this isn't the case as the motor is well past pushing against the spring at all times. So I assume the belts have stretched.Once I cleanted the dirt a bit, I realized the belts read: Elephant A-22 and A-23, but I'm uncertain which one goes on which pulley nor can I find these online.

author: MarkF
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 06, 2019, 03:49:12 pm
content: On mine, the motor and its pulley are on a slide.You tension the belts and then lock the slide.The motor is not able to move after that.Is your motor on springs to do the tension?

author: bostonman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 06, 2019, 03:54:09 pm
content: It pivots on a hinge basically. I think it has a bolt on the top and bottom that it pivots on.The spring is horizontal and pushes against the hinge plate the motor is mounted to.To remove the belt(s), I push the motor against the spring. When I reconnect the belt, the motor moves past touching the spring to make the belts tight, and bangs full open when I start the press.

author: MarkF
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 06, 2019, 03:59:06 pm
content: My motor and pulley are locked tight no springs, no movement when locked.I updated picture to indicate tension lever and locking nut.

author: MarkF
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 06, 2019, 04:03:39 pm
content: So the motor is on a plate like a door hinge with the open side having a spring to push it open?That tensions the belts?Maybe it's the spring(s) and not the belts?

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 06, 2019, 09:43:11 pm
content: You have the information. Elephant is a brand name, and A-22 and A-23 are the sizes. Your belt supplier should be able to take it from there. As Free-Electron says the A is a width designation. I believe the numbers are the inside circumference of the belt in inches. Some vendors use outside belt diameter and others use both so the Gates replacement for your A-22 belt would be a A22/4L240.While your press may differ, most of these that I have seen use the longer belt on the quill side and the shorter belt on the motor side.

author: bob91343
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 07, 2019, 03:57:47 am
content: If it were me, I'd pack the whole press into my car and take it to the hardware store. They will look at it and probably fit the appropriate belts in a few minutes.Should that actually happen, be sure to keep the information on what belts worked, and paste it into the cover of the unit and put another copy in a shop drawer.The good thing about the store is that they can try different belts without you driving back and forth ten times.

author: AngusBeef
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 07, 2019, 05:50:37 am
content: Quote from: bob91343 on September 07, 2019, 03:57:47 amIf you've got a whole truck it's easy, but if you will have trouble the upper part should be able to be removed using the set screws at the point where it connects to the vertical beam. Then you can take just the top with you if you're short on space (just be aware it will be heavy). If you're not 100% what belts to use just take it on as Bob91343 mentioned and you'll save yourself a ton of headache

author: Jwillis
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 07, 2019, 08:25:05 am
content: "A" belts are 1/2 inch wide and 5/16 thick and the 22 or 23 is the inner circumference .Your belt should be snug but not singing tight. A half inch deflection is plenty tight enough. Deflection is when you press firmly on the side of the belt and that's the distance it deflects inwards.If you can't figure out the length set your motor about half tension on the spring.and brace it there some way. A peice of wire wrap around from pully to pully will work. Take a piece of thick string or a sewing tape and measure the circumference from pully to pully at the bottom of the "V" groove and take the closest whole inch measurement. You need about half tension on the spring so the motor can move a little in case the arbour jams. Any auto shop or parts dealer will likely have the size of belt you need.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 07, 2019, 08:47:42 am
content: Quote from: AngusBeef on September 07, 2019, 05:50:37 amlooks like somebody is not reading, just bring the belt. you can put it on your lap on a bike or a car full of chicks.

author: eKretz
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2019, 02:26:47 pm
content: It sounds to me like OP doesn't know how his belt tensioning mechanism locks or the locking parts are missing. The motor and pulleys should absolutely NOT be bouncing around when power is applied. The belts do not sound at all like the problem here.

author: bostonman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 10, 2019, 07:02:33 pm
content: This is the motor section of my drill press.The inside of the picture is the hinge. Basically it's a U-style () bracket that has a bolt on the top and bottom - So the motor swings freely.From what I can tell, the screw with the spring pushes on the motor plate, and the motor plate can only go as far as the belts will let it. Once the motor is tight, then the plastic knob is tightened to prevent the screw (with the spring) from pushing back inside. In other words, the motor is pulled, thus keeping tension on the belts, but can't loosen because the screw (with the spring) is tight.Under the current conditions, the motor plate is further away from the screw with the spring. It swings even further away than the screw with the spring, to the point the pulley on the motor hits the inside of the belt housing (where the pulleys and belts are) upon starting the press. Once the motor has begun turning normal, then the motor returns to almost touching the screw with the spring.To make matters more confusing, I went to adjust the table (the part you rest parts on to drill) because it wasn't at 0 degrees. After I turned the table to 0 degrees, I noticed it was unleveled. For whatever reason, the sticker that shows the degrees and the marker on the table are off by approximately 1-2 degrees. Nothing looks altered, so I'm shocked the alignment sticker and marker is incorrect.

author: AngusBeef
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 10, 2019, 07:20:14 pm
content: Quote from: bostonman on September 10, 2019, 07:02:33 pmIt's just a matter of the belt being either stretched or too big for the motor is all that it seems to me. Honestly you have some more flexibility in what size belts you use than my own drill press because of how much movement is in the tension adjustment mechanism.I'm surprised you haven't sized up some new belts to see how it worksAnd the alignment may be adjustable? I have a 1960s Craftsman radial arm saw that you must adjust the alignment markings when you calibrate the saw to square

author: FreddieChopin
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 10, 2019, 08:12:17 pm
content: Quote from: bostonman on September 10, 2019, 07:02:33 pmYou should clean and oil belt tensioner spring since it's all rusted together.

author: MarkF
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 10, 2019, 08:28:04 pm
content: Quote from: bostonman on September 10, 2019, 07:02:33 pmMine is similar except no hinge.The motor is mounted on two rods that slide in and out to tension the belts.With a knob on each side to hold the belts tight.The spring looks like it just pushes the bolt out against the motor U-plate as you tension the belts?Then, the knob keeps the bolt from moving back in, holding the belts tight?Just make sure the bolt moves freely as you swing the motor hinge (take the belt of to test).QuoteWhat conditions? After you tighten the belts, there should not be any way for them to loosen.Do you have something else broken or loose? Like the idler pulley in the middle or the spindle on the front pulley.Unless a bearing or mount is able to move, none of the three pulleys should have any play.Maybe the bolt with the spring slips back in as you use the drill press?Are the belts staying on the same speed? (i.e. They are not jumping on the pulleys to a different speed?)

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 10, 2019, 10:52:11 pm
content: There seem to be only two possibilities to me. With the thumbscrew on the side of the drill press loosened the ball headed rod should be pressing on the motor plate with significant pressure. Either your belts are too long (stretched or maybe prior owner bought wrong sizes and that is why they weren't on the machine), or the spring fed bolt has a bur or other problem preventing full extension. Your observations on limited pulley clearance to the shield, and the already poor geometry between the bolt and motor plate at current max extension make the second possibility seem unlikely.It appears that you have your A23 belt mounted on the quill side and the A22 belt mounted on the motor side. I would take those belts to a good distributor and compare their sizes with new belts. If they have stretched significantly longer (or have worn significantly narrower) I would replace the belts with new ones and mount the new ones like you have them. If there is no significant size difference I would get an A21 belt and put it on the motor side, moving the A22 to the quill side. Looks like it would work, but only trying would tell.

author: MarkF
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 10, 2019, 11:39:46 pm
content: Another thought, my center pulley is on a pivot (I assume yours is too.)You will want to arrange the belts so it does not hit either end of its pivot travel.

author: bostonman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 16, 2019, 12:23:46 am
content: What I keep finding online is drill presses with tension screws (I guess they have some sort of cam on the inside. I don't see any place for a tension screw on mine.It seems the motor should be held from banging against the belt/pulley case by the belts keeping things tight.

author: MarkF
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 16, 2019, 02:04:40 am
content: To start, let's try a little picture to see if this is your setup:As the hinge opens, the belts are tightened?The "Thumb Screw" should tighten the "Tension Rod" from moving?The "Tension Rod" should move freely in and out as the motor mount is turned on the hinge?The "Center Pulley" rotates on the "Pulley Cam" tightening both belts?With both belts in place, open the hinge and motor to tighten the belts.As you tighten the belts, the "Tension Rod" is pushed out against the motor mount plate by the spring.Tighten the "Thumb Screw" keeps the "Tension Rod" in place and the belts tight.When you start the motor, there should not be any movement.Things to check:- The "Tension Rod" and "Thumb Screw" stay tight.- The "Spring" freely pushes the "Tension Rod" against the motor plate.- There is no unwanted movement in the "Pulley Cam" (i.e. The pulley is secure on the cam plate and the unit only rotates on its pin without binding).- Motor is secure on mounting plate and no unnecessary play in the hinge.If the belts are too long, the hinge and "Tension Rod" may not open far enough to tighten the belts.In your last picture, the hinge and motor seem to be open much wider than I would have expected.

author: bostonman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 16, 2019, 02:28:40 am
content: Yes, that's basically my model too.It would seem the belts have stretched, even though they don't look aged.Initially my question was whether anyone had a manual for this as I can't find one online. Having the manual would help with determining if the belts are incorrect, and whether this unit is missing any parts. Although, I don't see a place for a tension lever, just the tension rod with spring.From models I see, they have a tension lever that moves a CAM to push against the motor plate. What I don't get is why the newer models have this CAM feature, and a tension rod with spring. Once the CAM pushes against the motor plate, it seems the tension rod wouldn't serve any purpose.

author: MarkF
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 16, 2019, 02:59:59 am
content: If you look at my drill press picture from earlier, I actually have two tension rods that bolt onto the motor mounting plate (no hinge on mine). The lever on mine pushes both tension rods (hence the motor and pulley) out to tighten the belts. Then there are two thumb screws (one on each side) to tighten and keep the motor in place.Yours is done with one rod and a hinge.IMHO: You just need belts that keep the center pulley and its cam plate from hitting either of its end stops and the motor hinge is approximately parallel to the back of the drill press. (Just like in my last picture.) I don't know how much movement you have in the center pulley on its cam plate.

author: MarkF
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 16, 2019, 03:29:25 am
content: This is my Delta setup: