Why australian mains plug have angled pins on each connector? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / beginners

author: jancelot
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 27, 2021, 10:57:35 pm
content: AU wall plugs have pins like this: / \ instead of american which is parallel ||Why is this? Do pins have polarity? Like Active always on one side and Neutral always on the other, or can they be mixed regardless?

author: Whales
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 27, 2021, 11:09:04 pm
content: The polarity of wiring powerpoints here is standardised (when facing them: top-left is active). House and lead wiring still gets stuffed up however, so all equipment should still be designed to work safely with both polarities. No tying chassis to neutral!Have a look at the original US (!) patent, that might have some clues as to the slant:https://patents.google.com/patent/US1179728EDIT: note that UK female sockets of any kind require lots of flat margin around them to prevent people plugging the earth pin into the wrong hole. Perhaps this slant helps avoid the possibility of incorrectly inserting a plug?

author: jancelot
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 27, 2021, 11:19:11 pm
content: Quote from: Whales on April 27, 2021, 11:09:04 pmNot sure I can conclude which side is which according to the patent. However, yes, on the web there's mention to it, that when facing wall, top left is active and top right neutral. Thanks for clarifying.Wall outlets in Europe: do I have to check polarity?Australian Mains PlugWhy does ac polarity affect sound quality?

author: jancelot
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 27, 2021, 11:23:18 pm
content: "The UK electrical system is polarised."Understanding European and Scandinavian plugs and sockets

author: langwadt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 27, 2021, 11:48:06 pm
content: Quote from: jancelot on April 27, 2021, 11:23:18 pmwe have several different kinds so you can keep standard stuff, IT and medical separated. Standard plugs only fit standard sockets, IT plugs will work in a standard and IT sockets, and medical will work in all of themhttps://www.plugsocketmuseum.nl/DK/DK_socket_standard.jpghttps://www.plugsocketmuseum.nl/DK/DK_socket_EDB.jpghttps://www.plugsocketmuseum.nl/DK/DK_socket_hospital.jpg

author: JustMeHere
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2021, 12:27:11 am
content: I suspect because the NA polarization can be easily defeated with a pair of pliers. Just crush the wider plug into a smaller shape. (This was common in the 80s.)

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2021, 12:34:24 am
content: QuoteThe earth pin is larger than the other 2 on a uk 13A plug so unless you use a hammer itwontshouldnt be possible to get it wrong.

author: jancelot
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2021, 06:59:50 am
content: Quote from: themadhippy on April 28, 2021, 12:34:24 amYeah I noticed that too. I guess it doesn't make contact unless it's all the way through. Wouldn't make sense otherwise.

author: MIS42N
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2021, 09:36:10 am
content: The Australian plug is based on a US plug patented in 1916. The patent doesn't give any reason for the slant pins (that I saw). Maybe it was thought it could be used for AC or DC. DC requires that the plug not be reversible. Readhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AS/NZS_3112

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2021, 10:41:19 am
content: Wouldn't the distinction simply be because Australia an the US outlets have (always run at) different supply voltage?

author: Nusa
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2021, 11:03:46 am
content: Quote from: MIS42N on April 28, 2021, 09:36:10 amThe wiki entry also gives the history of the plug/outlet, which pretty much answers the OP's question.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2021, 11:12:31 am
content: Quote from: Whales on April 27, 2021, 11:09:04 pmThe possibility of the mains mains wiring being wrong, it not the reason for not tying the chassis to neutral. Using that logic, one could also state that they shouldn't tie the chassis to earth, as the mains wiring could be wrong. The reason why neutral is not interchangeable with the earth connection is, that it carries a larger current, than earth, which also often has a slightly smaller conductor and that the neutral and can more easilly become disconnected than the earth, as the neutral and phase pins are the same length. If the earth becomes disconnected, one would hope that the earth leakage would normally be low enough to not cause a lethal shock, which is not the case for the neutral.

author: Whales
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2021, 10:48:43 pm
content: Quote from: Zero999 on April 28, 2021, 11:12:31 amThings are not that absolute.Finding active & neutral swapping in house wiring or extension leads is reasonably common, I've encountered it a few times. Appliances keep working fine and nobody notices. It increases some particular shock risks (eg when changing lightbulbs in the dark or when sparkies need to do work on the wiring) but often not enough to be obvious.Finding earth swapped with an A/N is relatively rare these days. RCDs will pickup this sort of fault immediately inmostinstalls. It's also psychologically harder to miswire an earth when you're looking at the wire colours (versus A & N being both mentally "hot", regardless of their colours).

author: wasyoungonce
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 29, 2021, 08:25:54 am
content: URGGGH 2 pin plugs.....we were repair facility for aerial film photo interpenetration light tables...which were 110V AC. Army used them...gave use one with pins twisted to fit 230V (then 240V) socket.I was supervisor inspecting it on arrival said to troopies ..."replace that with a good 240V plug".....problem was the table was actually a 110V operation so no wonder it was originally "blown up: but I made it worse..Eventually it twigged it was a 110V version table. There were a couple of voltage versions we didn't know we only saw on every 10 or so years to fix. What really peeved me was Army guys bitchin to get the table back quickly, fixed, when they caused it. Yes we should have noticed the voltage version and I made it worse.....but hey...the military...where you can really stuff up spectacularly

author: MIS42N
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 29, 2021, 09:51:58 am
content: Quote from: wasyoungonce on April 29, 2021, 08:25:54 amI got caught. Was given a foot massager, missing a power cord. Found a suitable cord, plugged it in, turned it on, fireworks. What was missing was a TRANSFORMER - 240V to 32V. Unfortunately the manufacturer had used a small appliance 2-pin socket as found on radios for the 32V input. And I didn't think. I don't think the mechanics have suffered but the circuit board is a nice shade of black.

author: Capernicus
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 29, 2021, 10:14:29 am
content: They are slanted to look like a ghosts face, cause its what u turn into once ur electrocuted.

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 29, 2021, 11:33:45 am
content: My understanding regarding this is from bits of hand-me-down information.I think the Australian plug design had a fair bit to do with timing with what was on offer when the chance arose to adopt a standard.The biggie for the one chosen was the persistent earth, high amperage capacity and the ability for an appliance to be backwards compatible with a higher rated outlet. ie. a 10A plug works in a 15A outlet.The 10A became ubiquitous probably due to the price of copper and anything bigger was heavier and unwarranted unless in specific areas.Some more info here:https://plugsocketmuseum.nl/Australian_3hd.html

author: jancelot
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 29, 2021, 07:44:32 pm
content: Do you know the reason why the 2 main plugs are angles respect to each other, and not parallel like in the U.S.? Is that to prevent connecting it upside down (polarity switched) or was unexpected and unwanted/unrelated change to it?

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 29, 2021, 07:55:00 pm
content: There are a very limited number of things that you can do with the pins on a plug to make it impossible to plug them into the wrong type of outlet. I think you are readingfartoo much into it.EDIT: Unless somebody knowledgeable in AU can give you a definitive reference to current standards... Err, doesn't your second reference in reply #2 do that?

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 29, 2021, 08:36:06 pm
content: Quote from: jancelot on April 29, 2021, 07:44:32 pmDesklamps, probably. They had single pole switches either in-line on the cord or at the base of the lamp holder. Due to our M.E.N connection at the fuse box, it was deemed imperative to ensure the active runs through the switch so exposed contacts and high voltage aren't so dangerous around stray fingers.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 29, 2021, 09:40:57 pm
content: Quote from: Whales on April 28, 2021, 10:48:43 pmIn an old installation, with no RCD, it would still work with the earth and neutral reversed, but I've never encountered such a wiring fault before in the UK. Broken connections, whether they be earth, live, or neutral are far more common than the wrong connections, i.e. live and neutral, or earth and neutral reversal.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 29, 2021, 11:42:17 pm
content: Quoteyou need to get out moreBefore the introduction of fitted plugs it was pretty common to get called back to a job because "the powers gone off,everything was fine until you changed the fuse board" only to find some appliance with a wrongly wired plug. One of the more "interesting" was the customer getting occasional shocks.The customer had changed a light switch using a 2 way switch,and put the earth to one of the terminals.

author: jancelot
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 30, 2021, 12:45:09 am
content: I ask about the polarity, because I've bought european power strips in the past, with double-pole general circuit breaker, having also individual power breaker for each outlet, which is single-pole. So what happens is, if you connect the strip rotated 180 degrees, you will switch live with neutral, and the individual power breakers make no sense. They are just there to prevent current from closing the circuit but you may have a live connection there.Example with circuit breaker for each outlet, probably single-pole:Power Strip EU Outlets Plug Sockets Individual Switch Control Overload Protection Extension Sockets with 4.5m Extension CordAdd to it the general circuit breaker as well for all the outlets (this usually is double-pole, ground not included):So if you use breaker for each outlet you have 50% change to get electrocuted if you operate the appliance cutting the power like that.

author: agehall
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 30, 2021, 07:42:51 am
content: I don't get your reasoning here. If you break either the hot or the neutral to a device - it will power off since the circuit is broken. (Circuit breaker you know...)If the devices you connect are designed according to relevant specs, this should not pose any problems what-so-ever to the user. Of course, if you start poking metal objects into your extension cords, you will probably be in trouble, but then the same argument can be made for wall sockets - fuses only break one of the phases, not both hot and neutral! (Well, nowadays the RCD would probably save you but anyway)I don't get these discussions that come up every so often about how to identify hot and neutral. Very few devices actually require specific hot and neutral and while there are standards for color coding of the wiring, how it should be installed in sockets etc, I strongly believe that it is a heck of a lot safer to never make assumptions about what is the hot and neutral wire and also assume that both of them are live at all times.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 30, 2021, 07:56:53 am
content: Quote from: themadhippy on April 29, 2021, 11:42:17 pmThat's a wrongly wired plug. I was talking about the house wiring.I suspect wrongly wired plugs are less common nowadays, since it's now law for all domestic appliances to come with a pre-wired plug.Quote from: agehall on April 30, 2021, 07:42:51 amThe question was about why the Australian plugs have angled pins, not how to identify phase and neutral.Anyway, since you asked. Not all wiring systems are the same. In the UK, a 32A breaker is often used for a circuit, which is too high for the thin cables used in most appliances, so a plug top fuse is mandatory. If the phase and neutral were reversed, the plug fuse wouldn't break, if the phase were to come into contact with the earthed chassis, so we have to hope that the 32A breaker does before there's a fire, or the voltage on the chassis rises to a hazardous level. I appreciate this is less of an issue nowadays, as all new installations have to have an RCD.

author: newbrain
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 30, 2021, 08:13:06 am
content: Quote from: agehall on April 30, 2021, 07:42:51 amThis.And, in fact, there still large areas in Italy where there is no real neutral and both conductors are live (with about half the voltage wrt earth, or in some case as two phases of a Y, with earth sitting at the centre) - they all come from the old 110 V system to the modern 220 V one conversions (I still remember when that happened, the 220 V was commonly known as the "industriale" before the switch and used only for heavier loads in the household).Specifically all the houses I've lived in Rome were wired this way.When we renewed the current one, the electrician had shortly transferred from the north, where this arrangement is much less common, and was quite surprised he could not identify "fase e neutro".

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 30, 2021, 09:46:23 am
content: Quote from: newbrain on April 30, 2021, 08:13:06 amOh don't get me wrong. I do strongly agree that the safe operation of an appliance shall not depend on the correct polarity of the phase and neutral. In some locations I three phase 230V is used, so both connections will be live at 133V, with respect to earth/neutral.I was just stating why polarised connectors with a fuse in the live are mandatory, in some circumstances.If European power sockets are to be used in the UK, they should be protected with a 16A breaker, or connected via the usual 13A fused plug, with the breaker/fuse in the phase connection before the socket. That way there will be sufficient overcurrent protection, which ever way the appliance is connected.

author: jancelot
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 30, 2021, 10:01:00 am
content: Quote from: agehall on April 30, 2021, 07:42:51 amthe reasoning is that if try to repair an appliance I can get a discharge if the circuit breaker only opens one wire, and that is the neutral and not the hot.

author: jancelot
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 30, 2021, 10:12:57 am
content: Quote from: Zero999 on April 30, 2021, 09:46:23 amIn europe the earth and the neutral are connected together at the substation, so at your house the difference between one of the phases and ground would be a few volts. Talking about 2-phase 230V, not 3-phase 440V used in industry and homes with lifts or air conditioning.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 30, 2021, 10:55:39 am
content: Quote from: jancelot on April 30, 2021, 10:12:57 amYes, that's normally the case in the UK.QuoteNowhere uses two phase, as far as I'm aware. I think you're confusing it with split phase i.e a 230V winding, centre tapped to earth, so both lines are at 115V, with respect to earth. And I was talking about 230V three phase, i.e. 133V with respect to earth and 230V phase-to-phase, not 440V. It is a thing. If it wasn't RS components wouldn't sell 230V three phase connectors.https://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/industrial-power-connectors/0479207/If power to your home is 230V three phase, then the phases will be both 133V, with respect to earth and obviously both need to be treated as such. All isolaters would need to be double pole. The same is true if it's 230V split phase i.e. 115V, with respect to earth.EDIT: Schematic added for clarity.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 30, 2021, 10:57:44 am
content: Quote from: jancelot on April 30, 2021, 10:01:00 amErm, shockingly simple and obvious solution,unplug it. Good grief. Please don't play with electricity.

author: bgm
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 30, 2021, 11:51:26 am
content: Quote from: Monkeh on April 30, 2021, 10:57:44 amPlease ... don't ever *assume* that people can see the "obvious". You would be surprised at the level of stupidity of some people.Amusing side story (though not for me at the time). A few years ago I was working on a mine site and was busy hacking my way through 30mm armoured cable to splice in a box. Visualised large amounts of sparks, lack of eyebrows and a very large amount of bad language from myself.A certain 'genius' had elected to ignore the taped off sign on the board that indicated that said circuit was under repair and was not to be turned on. They not only had to remove the sticker *over* the main distribution board but also remove the maintenance tags on the lock as well.I was given the afternoon off and then had to speak to HR the following day because I was informed that after the event I was 'emotional' and 'not thinking clearly'. Site supervisor indicated that "I may have been inclined towards causing harm to a fellow employee" (seriously this is what they actually put on the HR form).No shit sherlock ... I was most *definitely* "emotional" and most definitely "wanted to cause significant bodily harm...."Trust me when I say this ... common sense is *not* as common as it should be.

author: rs20
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 30, 2021, 11:56:16 am
content: Quote from: agehall on April 30, 2021, 07:42:51 amDefence in depth. Yes, make sure your appliance has an earthed chassis, but if you place the switches on the hot side, then you need a broken earth connectionANDa miswired plug to cause electrocution by a device while it's switched off. So if you just say, "screw it, I'll just miswire the plug because it doesn't matter in a properly designed appliance", then you're denying yourself that trivially achievable additional layer of defence against electrocution. Same argument goes for devices which have the majority of their circuitry hanging off neutral, miswiring so that they are hanging off hot instead wouldn't matter in an ideal world where an earthed chassis + RCDs were 100.000% effective, but we don't live in such a world and hence, defence in depth.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 30, 2021, 02:18:22 pm
content: QuoteDon't think its that common any more but there used to be a "single phase 415v supply " or some similar name that was just 2 phases and maybe an earth,it was mostly used for large welding transformers.One place in a domestic environment were polarity needs a bit of care is the Edison screw lamp holder,not everybody turns the light off when changing the lamp,and if the outer threaded bit is live .....

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 30, 2021, 03:22:52 pm
content: Quote from: Whales on April 28, 2021, 10:48:43 pmUp till the latish 1970s, the active & neutral positioning was only a recommendation, not a hard & fast rule.In 1969, or thereabouts, I was involved in installing security cameras in the Perth Mail Exchange.They were fitted on "pan & tilt" heads.These devices operated off the 240v Mains, with, from memory, 4 wire cablesWhen the security bloke selected "pan", 240v would be applied to the head, which would start to move in one direction, continuing till it hit an adjustable limit switch, then it would reverse.In this way, you could point it where you wanted----a bit slow, but it worked.As some cameras were close to walls or machinery, the limit switches had to be individually set, so the cameras didn't bash up against anything.As it was a "pain in the bum" to keep going back & forth to the security office, a "bright lad" made up a test controller which just plugged into a normal power socket.(GPO in Oz speak)The idea was, you motored the thing along to the required limiting positions opened the side, set the limit switches,& "Bob's your auntie!".This went swimmingly, until on one spot, I was up the ladder doing the limit switch setting, the other bloke, using the test controller motored it along to the right spot & returned the device to "off".These heads were a bit "fiddly" so most of the switch setting was done by "feel", with just one check to see if it looked right.I delved into the thing, & "Bam!"I copped a mighty belt, fell off the ladder, & got up using profanity profusely.It turns out we had to have three things go wrong, & they did!(1)The controller switch was only single pole, so "off" didn't isolate neutral.(2)The GPO we were plugged into had active & neutral transposed, &(3)The manufacturers didn't insulate the supposedly neutral pins on the switches, whilst solidly insulating "active".While I was groping around inside the head, I came in contact with one of these "hot" pins.We went to the project Electrician, whose reaction was pretty much "Meh!"From that point on, we checked the GPOs every time.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 30, 2021, 03:33:20 pm
content: Quote from: Zero999 on April 30, 2021, 10:55:39 amSomedevicesonly use two of three available phases, for instance electric stoves in Oz.These are normally hardwired, with the type of cable that is used for three phase, but only two are extended to the stove

author: newbrain
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 30, 2021, 06:02:22 pm
content: Quote from: Zero999 on April 30, 2021, 10:55:39 amNever say never, though probably true nowadays.I clearly remember, as a (rather reckless) kid, measuring* the voltage between the two live wires, and then between each wire and the ground (radiator pipes - no real ground at the time) and puzzling over how it could be possible that adding the two "halves" I would get 260 V while the total measured 225 VI had of course no idea of what a Y or delta were, at the time (about half a century ago).* With my faithful Iskra meter, incredibly they still manufacture anextremely similar model!

author: jancelot
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 30, 2021, 08:31:37 pm
content: Quote from: RoGeorge on April 30, 2021, 04:01:53 pmMad Max is real.

author: Syntax Error
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 30, 2021, 08:35:29 pm
content: Shocking revelation polarizes anthropological opinion...

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 30, 2021, 08:42:31 pm
content: There are all sorts of different plugs, even in the US there are numerous variations of the common 15A household receptacle (NEMA15-p), with one, the other or both prongs rotated 90 degrees. These are used for 20A 120V circuits and 15 or 20A 240V circuits. Usually when a prong is angled or rotated it is done as an easy way to make it incompatible with some other plug. Maybe the person who designed the Australian plug just liked the look, or maybe it evolved from something else, such as the common twist-lock plugs that have their pins in a similar arrangement.

author: JustMeHere
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2021, 02:10:48 am
content: Quote from: james_s on April 30, 2021, 08:42:31 pmI lived in older houses when I was young. They had non-polarized receptacles. I remember parents and grandparents modifying the plug (with a pair of pliers) so it would fit into the non-polarized receptacles. The Aus and NZ angled plugs make it much harder to bend the plug into the correct shape.

author: Doctorandus_P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2021, 02:37:00 am
content: Not australian, but earopean here.There was a time I got annoyed by "Euro plugs"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europlughaving their pins bend inwards, and broke a few trying to bend them straight.

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2021, 08:53:55 am
content: Quote from: Doctorandus_P on May 24, 2021, 02:37:00 amHa, I always thought that inward slant was due to poor moulding. I didn't realise it was intended to be that way, using...QuoteIt sounds as if you should stop trying to straighten them!

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2021, 09:19:23 am
content: Quote from: JustMeHere on May 24, 2021, 02:10:48 amNot impossible, though.In 1971, I travelled to the UK on the RHMS Britanis, which had, before joining Chandris lines, been an American Matson liner, under a plethora of names (Monterey, Matsonia, & Lurline).Because of this history, the power supply available in the cabins was 110v DC, using non polarised US style sockets.I had a "Philishave" electric shaver, which was switchable to run off 240 or 110v.As it had a "universal" motor, I was confident it would work on the ship DC supply.I also thought I would probably be able to buy an adaptor onboard to use my Oz plug with a standard US socket, (or an American shaver lead).My hopes were dashed in that direction, so I had to to go to my backup manual shaving gear, but I still had hopes of a "workaround".The Philishave lead had a "figure 8" socket on the shaver end, with a 3 pin moulded Australian plug on the other end.The earth pin wasn't connected to anything, & was just to make it "standard", or to stop people just bending the pins!I looked at the plug, & determined that the earth plug could be removed, without compromising the insulation on the other two.One problem was that I had no tools on board, but "problems are made to be solved".Part of the bunk frames were made of angle iron, with fittings to solidly fit it into the other part.This offered a perfect way to wrench the earth pin off, & to bend the other pins straight.It all worked well, except that the shaver had a little less "grunt" than at 240v ac, & that the pins weren't retained well in the power point, & needed to be pressed in manually.This looked a bit silly, but was quite safe, as the moulded plug has a largish plastic flange which kept the user's fingers well away from the " bities!"On arrival in the UK, I hastened to the Shaver shop for a local lead (remembering to switch the shaver back to 240v).They only had the ones for use with special "shaver" sockets, but supplied an adaptor for normal UK plugs.(I only ever saw one place in the UK with the " special sockets")Some years later, I was in Italy, & the hotel had what looked like the UK shaver socket."Chuffed" by this, I plugged the UK lead in, but it fell out-----the socket was almost the same, but not quite!

author: Stray Electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2021, 03:00:15 am
content: Quote from: bgm on April 30, 2021, 11:51:26 amI had a similar experience years ago. I was helping remodel an office that had numerous steel desks in it that all had electrical power outlets in them. Before we started I asked the plant electrician if the power was off and he said that it was. I proceeded to removed one of the outlets and I dropped onto the steel table and it immediately made huge arc and blew the circuit breakers. I wentlookingfor the electrician and I said "I thought you told me that the power was off!". His reply was "Never take anyone's word for that, always go check for yourself."Point taken!

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2021, 08:32:07 am
content: So did we arrive at the conclusion already that Schuko is the best plug and every country should just adopt it?The UK plug being the second best option, for overly cautious people.

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2021, 08:51:13 am
content: Quote from: tszaboo on May 25, 2021, 08:32:07 amWell I think the top two are correct. I'd place the UK plug first though (obviously), on the basis of overall system saving in copper and more convenient cable exit direction. I'd settle for joint first though.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2021, 12:00:30 pm
content: Quote from: tszaboo on May 25, 2021, 08:32:07 amWhy on Earth would we do that?It's clunky, over complex, weird looking, & in normal service, does nothing that the Australian plug doesn't do!The Oz plug, to me, is the best compromise, as the standard, rewireable plug is easy to assemble, cheap to manufacture & offers safety of a very high level.As I said in my previous post, itispossible to bend Australian plug pins straight, but the only likely application of such a modification would be for use with the USA 120v sockets, where the insulation of the Oz plug would be overkill.

author: Keith956
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2021, 12:33:03 pm
content: Yup, the clunky old UK one won't let you pull the cable hard to yank the plug out of the socket.Of course no one would do that would they

author: Nusa
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2021, 12:43:04 pm
content: Quote from: Keith956 on May 25, 2021, 12:33:03 pmI once literally saw someone drive a car out of the garage with an extension cord hooked over their bumper. Pulled the plug out of the socket and bent the pins (US system).If you pull hard enough, there WILL be a weak point. If you overdo the cable and plug design, then we'll pull the socket out of the wall and the live wiring will be the failure point. Or you could have a designated failure point and not have to replace infrastructure.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2021, 01:29:01 pm
content: Quote from: tszaboo on May 25, 2021, 08:32:07 amYou must be joking. Schuko is far from the safest plug, because it can mate with unearthed sockets, which is a terrible idea.If I were to choose a connector for everyone to adopt, it would be IEC 60309, even though it's overkill for most domestic applications.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2021, 03:00:44 pm
content: Quote from: Nusa on May 25, 2021, 12:43:04 pmUnfortunately, typical US plugs go so far in the direction of designated failure point that they're cheap and sloppy from the start. And then the sockets are so flimsy they're easily pulled out of the wall anyway.

author: BrokenYugo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2021, 06:01:12 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on May 25, 2021, 03:00:44 pmAnd then the flimsy straight blades get bent, and once said bent plug gets rammed into a socket it will certainly be sloppy.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2021, 07:11:45 pm
content: QuoteAnd no need for multii way extension leads,just fit a ceeform T line on every appliance

author: Nusa
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2021, 10:29:38 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on May 25, 2021, 03:00:44 pmIn your zeal to attack the US system, which I wasn't even defending, you not only trimmed out my US reference, you also edited out all the context that I was actually responding to.So, I've reinserted the trimmed context in bold. How about addressing that UK-context point instead? What's the proper point of failure in the UK system, safety-wise?

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2021, 10:32:45 pm
content: Quote from: vk6zgo on May 25, 2021, 12:00:30 pmIt holds the cable in place,firmly. You can plug it both ways. Its touch safe 100% the time, and that safety is provided by more than a small sleeve of small plastic. As a bonus, you can use 4mm banana cables if you are quite mad.Quote from: Zero999 on May 25, 2021, 01:29:01 pmIEC 60309 is indeed quite good, and should be on the device side. And unearthed sockets are not up to the latest building code.

author: Nusa
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2021, 10:39:10 pm
content: Of course the most international consumer standard now is actually the C13/C14 connector on devices. Even Dave has made flames because of that, since it does nothing to stop plugging 120V devices into 240V. The other way around is less dangerous, but still not desired.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2021, 07:50:27 am
content: Quote from: tszaboo on May 25, 2021, 10:32:45 pmThe Schuko being non-polarised is a disadvantage, rather than an advantage. If the neutral and live side are gauranteed to be in the same place, as is the case with the UK plug, the live can be fused with a lower rating than the main breaker, in the plug, or inside the device. This fuse will now blow, if the live is shorted to earth, rather than just a live to neutral fault. It's not such a big improvement now we have RCDs, but nice none the less. The fact that older buildings do have unearthed sockets and the device can be taken abroad, where such sockets exist, is a big weakness of the Schuko.Safety in the UK plug is provided by more than small sleeves of plastic. There's a fuse on the live, which is of a much lower rating, than the 16A or 32A circuit breaker and the socket has shutters over the live and neutral, which only open when the earth is inserted, making it very child-proof.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2021, 03:18:52 pm
content: Quote from: Nusa on May 25, 2021, 10:29:38 pmOh no, I trimmed again, woe is me. Anyway..There isn't one for this scenario. The combination will hold up to most abuse without damage if properly constructed, if improperly constructed or adequately abused it will fail - like everything else.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2021, 09:41:05 pm
content: Quote from: BrokenYugo on May 25, 2021, 06:01:12 pmThere are a lot of cheap US plugs but that doesn't mean they have to be cheap and flimsy. Good quality heavy duty plugs are not hard to find and they're not even particularly expensive. For those who want the best, hospital grade plugs and receptacles are readily available, they cost a lot more than the lower grade stuff but they're not obscenely expensive and they are very well made. I don't recall the details of the spec, but they are tested and have to survive a specific weight being attached to the end of a cord plugged into a wall socket and then dropped from a certain height without being damaged or coming unplugged. They are a world apart from the cheap builder grade domestic receptacles and the sort of plug you'd see on a cheap table lamp but they are all compatible. You can plug a hospital grade plug into a cheap domestic receptacle and cheap plugs will fit in a hospital grade receptacle. In the middle there is spec grade which is typically used in commercial buildings, it is pretty reasonably priced, about $3 each for duplex receptacles and they're sturdy and grip the plugs firmly, they're a good choice for typical domestic use. IMHO the only real fundamental flaw in the design of the US plug is the fact that the prongs are not shrouded, the other issues are all solvable by not buying the cheapest junk you can find. It's true that in general they are not as rugged as something like the UK 13A plugs but they're also a lot smaller and you can get a power strip with 6 US sockets in about the same space as 3 or 4 UK sockets. You can get quality, you just have to pay for it.

author: BrokenYugo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2021, 11:56:29 pm
content: I was speaking more in the typical experience sort of reality of the situation. People are gonna jam screwed up two prong plugs in receptacles, and the two prong ones are easy to screw up, just yank it out sideways. I know of the "hospital" grade parts and will only buy commerical/spec grade receptacles.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2021, 02:15:00 am
content: The "problem" I suppose is that we allow really cheap junky products to be produced and sold. I don't think it really ends up being that big of a problem though, damaged plugs are easily replaced, or the prongs can be bent back into shape. Plugs falling out of receptacles is a nuisance but really only happens with cheap worn out receptacles.

author: Terry Bites
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2021, 02:34:32 pm
content: Its to correct for Ausssie beer vsion. She'll look parallel right enough!

author: BrokenYugo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 28, 2021, 01:21:15 am
content: Quote from: james_s on May 27, 2021, 02:15:00 amI've found most people don't fix them, vacuum cleaners and power tools seem to be the biggest offenders. If they aren't bent from abuse they're deliberately bent to fit better in worn outlets and extension cords.I consider loose receptacles to be more than a nuisance, between the looseness and lack of any shrouding I have seen metal shit find it's way in there and create a live-neutral short, quite the light show at minimum.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 28, 2021, 02:47:13 am
content: Quote from: BrokenYugo on May 28, 2021, 01:21:15 amWell I don't blame the design for the lack of reasonable care and proper maintenance. If you abuse anything and don't bother to maintain it properly there is the chance of an unsafe condition. Some designs are more tolerant of abuse than others, but I don't think being intolerant of abuse is necessarily a design flaw. The lack of shrouding is an issue, but not one that seems serious enough to me to change the entire continent to a different plug standard. There are hundreds of millions of NEMA-15 plugs in use every day and people aren't dropping dead left and right from them. If there was one reasonable action we could take to improve things, it would be just mandating reasonable quality plugs and receptacles. Maybe something like a less extreme dropped weight test as used for hospital grade plugs. Just get rid of the 75 cent builder grade receptacles and 2-prong plugs altogether.

author: BrokenYugo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 28, 2021, 04:31:44 am
content: Quote from: james_s on May 28, 2021, 02:47:13 amThat I can agree with, at least mandate two wire cords have a false ground pin on the plug to make it harder to yank out sideways.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 28, 2021, 05:05:10 am
content: Quote from: tszaboo on May 25, 2021, 10:32:45 pmWhat "small sleeve of plastic would that be?The body of a Australian plug is thick moulded PVC, so you can't mean that.The only things that come near that description are the black plastic sleeving on the active & neutral pins, quite similar to the ones on more recent British plugs.These didn't exist for decades, but Australians did not get shocked from their power plugs.The sleeves will protect against the unlikely case where someone pushes a knife or similar down between the plug & power point.This isn't easy, in any case, as an Oz plug, when inserted, sits very tightly up against the face of the socket..Another incidental thing is that Australian power sockets are switched, further reducing the possibility of shock.

author: Nusa
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 28, 2021, 05:19:46 am
content: Quote from: BrokenYugo on May 28, 2021, 04:31:44 amFalse ground pin would probably be a safety-level regulatory lie to the consumer. If the pin is present, it better be connected to the device. I can just see the lawsuit..."But the chassis I touched was clearly grounded! See the pin?"Back when 3-prong plugs were becoming common on tools, but most houses still had 2-prong outlets, ripping off the ground prong on the plug was a common method to make it work.It's still not technically legal* to install 3-prong outlets in older houses without grounds. That's one reason they still make 2-prong replacement fixtures for the unimproved pre-1970 houses. (*Many do it anyway for convenience's sake. And then sometimes undo it when it comes time to sell, when it fails inspection.)

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 28, 2021, 12:44:52 pm
content: Quote from: Nusa on May 28, 2021, 05:19:46 amWhy would a fake ground pin be a problem, on a class 2, double insulated piece of equipment? The UK plug has to have an earth pin to open the shutters. Double insulated wall warts often have a plastic earth pin, which is perfectly legal.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 28, 2021, 02:34:10 pm
content: Quote from: Zero999 on May 26, 2021, 07:50:27 amI dont really understand the need for fusing the leads on the UK plugs. There is a 16A circuit breaker in every house, protecting every group of outlet. Its redundant. Because it is a redundancy of a safety aspect, I dont mind it that much. What I mind is the lost flexibility. To have right angle connectors, straight connectors, and boxes that are held in place by the moulded plastic connector and not pins of the connector.Polarization is not an issue. All equipment sold in the civilized part of the world must be able to handle swapping phase and neutral. They either have double insulation or they have earth connected to the chassis. Case in point: because schuko isn't polarized.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 28, 2021, 02:47:24 pm
content: Quote from: tszaboo on May 28, 2021, 02:34:10 pmUK homes typically have 32A breakers, which simplify wiring, as more sockets can be on the same circuit. The plug top fuse is often as low as 3A, so thinner, cheaper, more flexible cables can be used for appliances. Having a polarised connector means the equipment can be properly fused at much lower rating, than either the plug top fuse, or main breaker, providing extra protection against fire and shock. If a fuse is used with a non-polarised connector, it might be on the neutral side, so won't blow, if the live shorts to earth. Fortunately RCDs in modern installations will protect against this, so it's less of an issue, than it used to be. Either way, polarised connectors provide extra safety, at no extra cost.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 28, 2021, 07:47:27 pm
content: Quote from: Zero999 on May 28, 2021, 12:44:52 pmHis assumption is that some idiot would assume something is grounded because it has a 3 prong plug and end up suing, never underestimate the idiocy of some people, someone might actually do that. Totally solvable problem though, stamp the plug with a mark or coat the fake ground pin in colored plastic or something. Or just actually hook up the ground pin, it's not uncommon here to see lamps with metal bodies that are NOT grounded when it would make sense for them to have a ground connection.Back when those halogen torchier lamps were popular I had one in my office at work in which the wire to the lampholder had chafed on the threaded fitting that held the top of the lamp on, resulting in the entire (metal) lamp being energized. I thought I felt a tingle a few times from touching it but I didn't realize it was actually live until I was moving things around and I bumped it with the end of a VGA cable connected to a monitor that was plugged in so the connector shell was grounded. BANG, lights went out when the breaker tripped, blew a chunk out of the VGA connector. I have no idea why it's allowed to make a metal lamp that isn't grounded but it is.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 28, 2021, 08:47:36 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on May 28, 2021, 07:47:27 pmFair point. Wall warts have the power supply built-in to the plug, so it isn't possible to rewire it to something else requiring an earth.QuoteI've never heard of that. I had to Google it. That sounds dodgy were they normally unearthed?

author: Nusa
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 28, 2021, 08:55:33 pm
content: Quote from: Zero999 on May 28, 2021, 12:44:52 pm1) You're confusing technical reality with law and regulation. They aren't the same thing. Just because it works doesn't make it legal.2) You're confusing US context with UK context. US outlets accept plugs without earth pins, because they are common.3) Yes, it was obvious it wasn't UK context since UK outlets require ground pins, as you note. Additionally, Yugo, James, and I all have US tags, which actually do serve a function in a forum like this.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 28, 2021, 09:24:59 pm
content: Quote from: Nusa on May 28, 2021, 08:55:33 pmI'll be honest. I didn't know that three pin US sockets don't have shutters. Anyway, if you bothered to read my previous reply, you'll find, I can see your point, that a fake earth pin on a mains plug, would be dangerous, since it can be easily connected to another device, which isn't an issue for a wall-wart.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 28, 2021, 11:56:57 pm
content: Quote from: Zero999 on May 28, 2021, 08:47:36 pmYes, lamps (as in portable light fixtures) almost always have non-grounded 2 prong plugs, even when the lamp itself is metal or has exposed metal parts. I never gave it a lot of thought before but somehow these have escaped ever needing to have grounded plugs, despite the fact that it seems like one of those obviously good ideas. The 2 conductor "zip cord" that many of our domestic power cords are made of is even called "lamp cord" a lot of times, it has no provision for an earth conductor. IIRC your cords all have to have an outer insulating jacket but ours do not, ordinary lamp cord has only one layer of insulation and the two conductors are bound together by a thin section between them. When terminating zip cord you can easily grasp the ends with your fingernails and pull the two conductors apart far enough to terminate them in a plug or socket (lampholder) or whatever. Most lamps are constructed with a hollow threaded metal rod that runs up the core and holds it all together. The socket threads on the top and a nut threads on the bottom inside the base of the lamp and then the cord runs up through the rod. There is typically no anti-short bushing or anything at the ends. To be honest "kind of dodgy" sums it up pretty well! I guess the powers that be here are too busy mandating other silly things and most of them probably never looked inside a table lamp.Looking for pictures I noticed that almost all lamp marketing photos go to lengths to completely hide the cord so it's hard to find a good shot of the entire thing. Most table lamps have a socket very much like this though:https://www.homedepot.com/p/Leviton-250W-Medium-Base-2-Circuit-Turn-Knob-Aluminum-Shell-Incandescent-Lampholder-Controls-2-Sockets-Brass-7070-PG/301667465Some have a slide switch or pull chain instead of a rotary key but they're all built about the same. As you can see in the pictures the only thing between the live terminals and the metal outer shell is a cardboard sleeve. Now it isn't actually as dangerous as it looks, but it still seems like a good idea to me to earth the outer shell.Some examples of replacement cord sets for lamps:https://www.homedepot.com/b/Lighting-Lamps-Lamp-Parts/N-5yc1vZ2fkoova/Ntk-EnrichedProductInfo/Ntt-lamp+cord?Ntx=mode+matchpartialmax&NCNI-5&visNavSearch=lamp%20cordCode now requires Tamper Resistant receptacles in US houses, although they are not required in commercial buildings. They're pretty crappy in general, usually cheaply made low grade junk since they're a residential only requirement, and the ground prong has nothing to do with the shutters, they open if they both get pushed on at exactly the same time, ostensibly making it more difficult for a child to poke something into them but it also can make some plugs hard to insert. I never use them unless it's to pass an inspection, the spec grade stuff is so much better quality.https://www.homedepot.com/p/Leviton-15-Amp-Tamper-Resistant-Duplex-Outlet-White-10-Pack-M22-T5320-WMP/100684043

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 29, 2021, 04:12:19 am
content: All of the back and forth on threads like this about the merits of national wiring standards occasionally results in learning, and in my case results in questions.In this thread it is mentioned that UK outlets typically have a three amp fuse allowing a short to be locally isolated without throwing the breaker on the entire circuit. Thus there would be only 600-700 watts available from these outlets before blowing the fuse.In other threads the higher available power from the roughly 230 volt mains is touted, particularly for souped up instant heating kettles.How are these two seemingly contradictory observations resolved? Are higher current locally fused outlets available? Can you tell by looking at them?

author: Nusa
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 29, 2021, 04:21:46 am
content: Quote from: CatalinaWOW on May 29, 2021, 04:12:19 amIn the UK the outlets aren't individually fused, the PLUGS are individually fused. What fuse value belongs in the plug depends on what's connected to them.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 29, 2021, 08:06:01 am
content: Quote from: CatalinaWOW on May 29, 2021, 04:12:19 amAs I've said a couple of times in this thread, in the UK, a large number of sockets are protected by a 32A breaker. My house only has two 32A breakers for all of the sockets. One for the kitchen and master bedroom and another for the rest of the house. High powered loads such as the cooker have their own separate breaker and are hard wired. All plug-in appliances have a plug-top fuse, rated from 3A, to 13A, depending on the appliance. The smallest appliances, such as desk lamps, typically have thin, 0.5mm2cross-sectional area cable (a little thinner than 20AWG) and are fused at 3A. High current devices, such as kettles, have 1.252or 1.52cable (between 15 & 16 AWG), depending on the length of cable and are fused at 13A. The advantages are it simplifies wiring, lower rated fuses provide additional fire protection and a fault in one appliance doesn't always blow the main breaker. The disadvantages are it's more difficult to replace a fuse, than flip the breaker and idiots fit 13A fuses, to 3A appliances.

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 29, 2021, 09:29:30 am
content: Quote from: james_s on May 28, 2021, 11:56:57 pmThat's an interesting one (the lamp cord). Zip cord used to be available here in the UK too (it was nice cheap wire for childhood projects, bought from Woolworths). These days in the UK all mains wiring has to be double insulated - the individual core insulation and the outer sheath, on both 2 core and 3 core cables. Any expose single insulated cores, either on an appliance PAT test or in an electrical installation inspection is grounds for failure. In an appliance, exposed single insulated cores, either at the appliance or at the plug are an indication of a failed cord clamp anyway. In double insulated lamps etc. as the name implies, the second layer of insulation is maintained all the way through the metal body and into the insulated holder. 3 core with earth is easier though (but makes the product more country specific).Looking back, I'm not sure when this first came in. I know that there have been issues recently with people selling woven silk covered individual twisted cords (for that 'antique' lamp look) because they don't count as double insulated. On the other hand, before the advent of LED Christmas lights, most people had series string filament lights, all wired in transparent single insulated green twisted cords, many people probably still have them in the loft (we have some 37 year old ones).Double insulated cords of appliances (and certainly building wiring installation) are probably buried somewhere in the IEE wiring regs, but I'm not sure which issue introduced them, and also how widespread they are around Europe (I suspect certainly all of the EU).Zip cord, of one sort or another, is now relegated to cheap speaker cables and SELV applications (doorbells etc). Even where a DIN rail bell transformer is fitted inside a Consumer Unit (aka breaker panel), the zip cord secondary wiring must have supplementary insulated sleeving fitted from where it enters the enclosure.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 29, 2021, 05:58:43 pm
content: Interesting that there are DIN rail bell transformers that mount in the panel. Our doorbell transformers mount on the outside of a cover that goes on an ordinary junction box, the line voltage wiring is inside the box and the low voltage terminals are exposed on the outside. They are typically found in a closet or occasionally in the garage or utility room, mine is out in the garage. Doorbell wire is a single insulated twisted pair, I think it's typically 24 AWG solid copper.

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 29, 2021, 06:23:20 pm
content: We have both types, but there seems to be a slow trend (particularly on the continent) for putting more stuff in the panel, transformers, contactors for fancy lighting etc. I guess once you give someone a DIN rail, you're just asking for trouble!It does make a neat installation though.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 29, 2021, 06:42:46 pm
content: I quite like the DIN rail solution, it makes more sense to me than the situation we have with 3 or 4 different and completely incompatible panel standards in common use, and numerous others that are less common. I suppose it would be more difficult to do with the split phase service we have here that requires 240V breakers to straddle both legs.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 29, 2021, 06:43:36 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on May 29, 2021, 06:42:46 pmYou make the assumption that using a DIN rail means the panels are compatible. This is sadly not the case.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 29, 2021, 06:52:24 pm
content: Quoteno more difficult than 3 phase systems

author: dgtl
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 29, 2021, 07:09:30 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on May 29, 2021, 06:42:46 pmThe typical service for residential houses in a big part of mainland Europe is 3-phase. Manufacturers of din-rail fuses have bus-bars for 1, 2 or 3 interleaved phases to connect the breakers. You just cut the needed length and insert the bus-bar to one side of the breakers. For multiple-phase circuits or circuits without neutral (phase-phase), there are breakers of multiple units wide, that just use multiple terminals from the bus bar.Usually the input is wye configuration 230 phase to ground, 400V phase to phase, but there are also some legacy delta-configuration districts still in use in here (although migrated to wye). For those, the 230V is between phases and the install is using 2-phase breakers (like 240V in USA). Some coutries also use 2-pole breakers to disconnect neutral along the phase. But in our case, the input is 3-phase, so the breakers are connected pairwise to 3-phase input. This also is suitable for the din-rail bus bar - the first breaker is on phases 1,2; the second is 3,1; the third is 2,3 etc.

author: GlennSprigg
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 02, 2021, 12:18:07 pm
content: Aaarrgghh... This post has angered me a bit!!...I don't care how many responses, over the last 4 Pages!!!I'm TRYING to understand what is the ISSUE!! (I'm an Australian). OBVIOUSLY, unlike the 'U.S.', we are at least ATTEMPTING to try and'Polarize' the pins!! On a wall Powerpoint, the Active is on the LEFT, At least that is what is intended!! The SWITCH on such a Powerpointswitched THAT pin. Now, OK... if some dicktard wires a plug/lead into that which is WRONG, then we can't help that!! However, it doesn't seemtoo far from reality to at lease 'hope' that the 'active' ends up through the 'switch' on the actual load/device. And not resultantly connected toa 'chassis' of some device. WHY is someone even QUESTIONING such a 'purpose'?

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 02, 2021, 12:49:13 pm
content: Quote from: Zero999 on May 29, 2021, 08:06:01 amOnly two? OK that is definitely weird by European standards. I think I have 12 or 14 group of 16A breakers, 3x63A input to the house. Breakers are cheap, and 16A wiring for sure must cost less than 32A.Quote from: dgtl on May 29, 2021, 07:09:30 pmIf they even do that. Its possible to order these boxes pre-assembled. So they just order the "regular" box with 3 phase input and 12 groups, and all the electrician needs to do is wire it into the distribution box. Its a few hours of work most for a single house.Quote from: Monkeh on May 29, 2021, 06:43:36 pmDIN rail is also used a lot for control systems and PLCs. And railway applications. Its quite ingenious IMHO, a firm mounting method, which takes few seconds to install and uninstall. Boxes are cheap for it. But here is the thing: There are more than one standard box size for DIN rails. The one which is used at home in the distribution box is just one of these.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 02, 2021, 01:05:10 pm
content: QuoteWhat your missing is most 32A socket circuits in the uk are rings,the cable size for a 16A radial and a 32A ring final is the same, so you use less cable with a ring.The number of sockets on a ring is unlimited and can cover an area 100m2

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 02, 2021, 03:18:32 pm
content: Quote from: tszaboo on June 02, 2021, 12:49:13 pmYes, but that completely misses the point being made. Just because DIN rail is in use does not mean the enclosures and equipment are interchangable, which is what he saw as an advantage.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 02, 2021, 09:27:53 pm
content: Quote from: GlennSprigg on June 02, 2021, 12:18:07 pmUm, we polarize the pins in the US too, at least since the late 1960s. Not everything has polarized plugs but most reasonably modern stuff does and the stuff that doesn't is double insulated so it doesn't matter. I'm not really sure what you're asking/ranting about though, is there a specific question in there?

author: GlennSprigg
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 06, 2021, 11:20:42 am
content: Quote from: james_s on June 02, 2021, 09:27:53 pmSorry James!...I must have had a bad night or something!I wasn't asking a question though, but responding to the original post about why we would have pins like that? Seemed obvious.Even though there are many Double-Insulated devices now, that don't even require an Earth Pin in the Plug, we can't guarantee what devices arebeing plugged into outlets, so to at least 'try' to accommodate for this, the pins are polarized as such. Our Earth Pins on plugs, when needed, are alsoslightly longer than the Active/Neutral pins, so it is the 1st to connect, and last to disconnect from a socket, to maintain last second safety. This covers90% or more 10-Amp situations, but when there is a 15/16 Amp situation like a window mounted Air-Conditioner, the Earth pin is much taller, so it willnot fit in a standard 10-Amp outlet, as it requires a socket rated Fuse/Breaker-wise for that particular circuit.I would imagine that here in Australia, our 240-v is a lot more dangerous than your 110-v. As an 'old guy' I remember your old 'transformer-less' valveradios, that may/did have mains voltage on the Chassis!!, when not polarized. MANY years ago here, we were not so safety conscious, and would plugfor example a clothe's Iron into a 2 pin light-socket overhead!, but have come a long way since those days!'Often' here, we use 2-pin parallel sockets and plugs, just for low voltages like 12-v etc. Have a good day... Glenn