Batteries you can wear - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: SgtRock
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 25, 2011, 03:44:21 am
content: Greetings EEVbees:http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/04/110406123025.htm"A class of variable capacitor generators known as "dielectric elastomer generators" (DEGs) shows great potential for wearable energy harvesting. In fact, researchers at the Auckland Bioengineering Institute's Biomimetics Lab believe DEGs may enable light, soft, form-fitting, silent energy harvesters with excellent mechanical properties that match human muscle."--Attaching one of these to Dave should allow at least part of Melbourne to go off the grid. Best RegardsClear Ether

author: Kiriakos-GR
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2011, 02:35:50 pm
content: " Technology Could Power Wireless Electronics "I do not belong to the people who walk all day by moving around with a GSM phone + PDA + an Blue-tooth earphone (on their head).Some people are investigating about alternative (powering up) solutions about the specific type of "mobile user".Some have think to make energy from shoes, others solar , others "soft generators " ..But no one was smart enough to convert the mechanical energy of the water that comes in our homes from the pipes, in to electricity !!

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 25, 2011, 03:47:43 pm
content: Quote from: Kiriakos-GR on August 25, 2011, 02:35:50 pmPerhaps you are the only bright mind to think of it? You should make a prototype (and patent it) pronto.

author: Time
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2011, 04:55:35 pm
content: Probably because you would be billed for having water flowing in your house all the time.Not to mention you would lose water pressure everywhere else in the house. By extracting energy from the water mains you would essentially be forcing the water company to put more energy into the mains via pressure. This would cause your water bill rates to go up. One person harvesting energy this way might not be a problem but if it became widespread I am sure it would become a problem.

author: ciccio
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2011, 07:20:12 pm
content: Domestic water pressure may be used to power some original mechanisms.The gentleman who lived next door (a retired industrial maintenance technician) built a machine that used water pressure inside a piston to compress and reduce the size of empty plastic bottles and aluminum cans.The small-size mechanism stood under the kitchen sink.The water, after use, was pumped in the sink for dish-washing, by pressing a pedal.Unfortunately, the inventor died and all the house was restructured, so there is no trace left of the invention.

author: nukie
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2011, 11:28:58 pm
content: Move to some parts of the world especially Asia you can stop water flow using your tongue how's that for water pressure?

author: Hypernova
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 26, 2011, 12:02:37 am
content: I would imagine the gains to be quite small given that you can't put in so much resistance as to block the tap to a drip, however you probably can run bath room lights off it where you don't need much light and not for long, unless you have really poor aimor like to read. The energy from each flush would recharge it for the few minutes max you would use the light next time you visit.And as to the comments that your water bill would increase as long as you don't try to keep it on all day your usage won't increase one drop.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 26, 2011, 12:10:18 am
content: Quote from: HAL-42b on August 25, 2011, 03:47:43 pmBright isn't the description most would use. Muhahaha. The Kiriakos equivalent of the battery operated battery charger.

author: Zad
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2011, 01:24:02 am
content: I love these ideas, the people who come up with them seem to be unaware of the laws of thermodynamics and Newton's laws of motion. The energy has to come from somewhere. With water it is the water company who pressurise the system with pumps, with shoes and clothes it comes (obviously) from the wearer. Who on earth wants shoes that make it harder to walk everywhere?

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 26, 2011, 02:04:58 am
content: Quote from: Zad on August 26, 2011, 01:24:02 amIf they had a clue they'd just hook a dynamo up to their power meter and run the lamps from that, better still two dynamos and they could make more power than they use.UV just shakes his head, perpetal motion machine patents a dime a dozen, proven examples very much more scarce.

author: SgtRock
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 26, 2011, 02:21:19 am
content: Dear Zad:--I loved your blog page, very informative, tidy and extremely well done.--With regard to your statement that:"I love these ideas, the people who come up with them seem to be unaware of the laws of thermodynamics and Newton's laws of motion. The energy has to come from somewhere."--I assume you were being a bit hyperbolic, and did not really think that this paper published in the American Institute of Physics' Journal of Applied Physics, by researchers at the Auckland Bioengineering Institute's Biomimetics Lab, was written by people who were unaware of the implications of Heinlein's first law; "There ain't no such thing as a free lunch", TANSTAAFL, for short.--In this particular case, I do not think footwear was the envisioned application, but I do take your point. Probably they were thinking of a stretch panel about the knee, or something like. This sort of thing might have application for soldiers in the field, to help them keep at least one comm. link lit up when on the go and fresh out of batteries. Coiling one's leg takes energy, but uncoiling it is mostly gravity driven, so there may be some "relatively" free energy there to harvest. Always keeping in mind, of course, that "You can't get something for nothing" and "You can't even break even. That was the way an Engineer friend of mine used beat the first and second laws of thermodynamics into my head, and he increased entropy a goodly amount by doing so. Best RegardsClear Ether

author: johnwa
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2011, 08:17:54 am
content: Quote from: Kiriakos-GR on August 25, 2011, 02:35:50 pmhttp://www.douglas-self.com/MUSEUM/POWER/waterengine/waterengine.htmIt appears that power distribution using water is not a new idea. But the water company will always charge you more per litre than it costs them for the electricity to pump the water!

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 26, 2011, 12:05:58 pm
content: Quote from: Time on August 25, 2011, 04:55:35 pmI don't think so.The water "pressure" is generated by the "head" of the water, e.g. the height of your house relative to the local reservoir. It's a gravity based system. The only active pumping systems involved are mostly to transfer water between reservoirs etc, but pressure reducing vales can be used to ensure the head at the property is between 15m and 100m IIRC. At least that's how it works here in Sydney. I can't imagine it would be much different in other places, as I believe it's the most efficient way to do it.So you could get "free" power by harnessing that water when you turn on the tap. But the energy loss would go into reducing your water pressure, so in effect the generator would act as a "pressure reducing valve". It would not cost the water company anything, because it doesn't affect their pumping of the water into the reservoir. It would be your choice if you wanted to trade off water pressure to generate some electricity.The (potential) energy is contained in the height of the reservoir, it has nothing to do with the water supply authority and how they pump water.I get high water pressure because I'm at the bottom of a gully.Dave.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 26, 2011, 12:32:40 pm
content: Quote from: Time on August 25, 2011, 04:55:35 pmIt wouldn't be a problem for the water company if reservoir based systems are used, like here in Sydney.If everyone did it, the water company wouldn't even notice. Only the individual would notice in terms of lower water pressure out of their individual tap.Dave.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 26, 2011, 01:38:46 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on August 26, 2011, 12:05:58 pmSure is, the Sydney networkwas designed long before electric motors were even a consideration.http://www.sydneywater.com.au/Sustainability/OurHeritageAssets/_item_view.cfm?hi=4570942QuoteIt was however the obligation has been revised to "supply a minimum head of 15munder normal conditions". No doubt normal conditions translates in Sydney water terms to "when we goddamn feel like it".QuoteTrue, in theory at least, but in real terms with a half inch line at a 15m head without incurring additional water consumption you'd be flat out generating enough power to wind your your watch. And if you ran the thing 24hrs per day your excess water rates would be orders of magnitude greater than any saving from the power you generated.QuoteYep showers would be far from fun with the resultant water pressure loss. And there in lies the rub there is not sufficient energy to create anything but minuscule amounts of power.QuotePotentially it would cost the supply utility a squillion, most networks would need significant increases in capacity if such a scheme was taken up. Low flow fittings would need to be removed to cope with pressure reductions which would result in a substantial increase in demand.The idea is hair brained, unless you are lucky enough to have a stream run through your block you will not have sufficient flow to generate meaningful amounts of power.If you do have a stream on your property your a) probably too rich to give a toss about a potential few KW, b) a lucky b******d, and c) liable to be thwarted by all manner of regulation if you actually did want to create your own hydro.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 26, 2011, 02:03:07 pm
content: Quote from: Uncle Vernon on August 26, 2011, 01:38:46 pmOnly if people were dumb enough to reduce the pressure below usable levels and then everyone complained. The company would simply say "We are supplying our required 15m head, so bugger off".But if everyone used a generator AND maintained a usable pressure, then you get the energy for free.It's not much of course, but it is "free" in this case, and the water company would not know nor care.It's not theory, it's a practical (but fairly useless) fact. You could do it to generate small amounts of power if you really wanted to.Actually, I do believe various water system sensors are powered in this way.QuoteNo one said anything about it being useful for much!, but the fact is you can generate (intermittent) power for "free" from your tap, if you so desired, and could tolerate the loss in water pressure.Of course, only a fool would use the water solely for this purpose, it would be many orders of magnitude greater in cost than your grid power.I showed a small hydro system in my Hawaii video. That generated enough power for the entire property with a dozen guest rooms.I'd love to be able to do that!Dave.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 26, 2011, 02:14:33 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on August 26, 2011, 02:03:07 pmI guess so, in the same vein that you can actually get nearer the sun on certain days by standing on a chair.Our wide brown land is not exactly suited to hydro power, our most sizable scheme The Snowy actually uses more energy for water pumping to replenish it's reservoirs than it actually generates. It does however serve a useful role in negating the need for additional coal fired capacity during peak loads.

author: Hypernova
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 26, 2011, 02:39:40 pm
content: Quote from: Uncle Vernon on August 26, 2011, 01:38:46 pmActually the resistance from the street side point of view won't change, if your main valve was providing x+y amount of resistance you simply dial it back to x and have your turbine act as the y. There is nothing wrong with this scheme as long as you didn't open your main valve to the max (to keep the pressure at the tap reasonable) in the first place.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 26, 2011, 11:34:15 pm
content: Actually, I just realised that everyone has an inline system in their water mains that generates a small amount of power that does something useful - the water meter.It takes energy to turn those dials...Dave.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 26, 2011, 11:38:55 pm
content: Quote from: Uncle Vernon on August 26, 2011, 02:14:33 pmThat's news to me. Please quote a source that shows the figures.Dave.

author: Kiriakos-GR
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2011, 11:57:59 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on August 26, 2011, 11:34:15 pmTrueBut the point is what expectations do you have when you are trying to get some energy from the water pipes?And all comes down to the quantity of the water that you use.For example I do not have a garden, I do not spent water for it.If you do have a garden, you are wasting lots of water just for the flowers,but this includes about 15 - 30 minutes of water activity.Another example .. lets say that you own one extremely large fish tank.Just to clean it up and renew the water, you need lots of water,and this is another example of constant water activity.I just drink water, and visiting the toilet 2-3 times per day.I am not a big spender about consuming water.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 27, 2011, 12:09:07 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on August 26, 2011, 11:38:55 pmTrying to dig you up exact figures but this direct from the ABS gives you the basic idea.In 1984-85, the average cost of energy production by the Scheme was 2.1 cents per kilowatt hour being less than half the cost of electricity sold to bulk consumers by the Electricity Commission of New South Wales and Victoria in that year.The connection of the Scheme since 1959 by 330 kV transmission lines to the electricity systems of New South Wales and Victoria has also been of significant economic advantage. This has enabled sharing of reserves and the interchange of electricity between New South Wales and Victoria to their mutual advantage in optimising system costs.Extensive use has also been made of the power and pumping stations of the Scheme to provide spinning and fast reserve for both States from interrupting pumping, partially loaded units, changeover from synchronous condenser operationand the ability to start hydro units quickly with consequent savings in fuel costs of thermal plants.When the Scheme reached its designed capacity of 3,740 MW in 1974, this figure represented 33 per cent of the capacity of the combined New South Wales, Victoria and Snowy systems, and during shortages of thermal generating plant the Scheme has been called upon to operate at the limit of the diversion capacity available.The Scheme was designed to produce peak electricity, and good flexibility exists on a short-term basis although it is not able to replace base load generation for prolonged periods.Some increase in the diversion capacity of the Scheme may have been of advantage, but channel capacity of the rivers below the outlets of the Scheme as well as irrigation considerations limit prolonged, high discharge operation.Net output of course depends on climate and time of year, with melting snows an high inflow, the system is just waiting to deliver free megawatts. However like most Australian rivers flow is variable, Eucumbene is there for a reason and the Snowy-Eucumbene tunnel is two way for a reason. Energy from falling water minus energy to pump water back to its origin minus losses.regardless of this the scheme saves the requirement for massive amounts of additional fuel based generation.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 27, 2011, 12:58:25 am
content: Quote from: Kiriakos-GR on August 26, 2011, 11:57:59 pmYou don't shower or wash your clothes?We have two water tanks, one for the washing machine, and one for the garden. Have not had to top up either of them in the 5+ years we have had them.Although it pays to have stopper valves on your hoseDave.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2011, 01:02:39 am
content: There are regenerative handicap doors out there. One I have seen pressurized hydraulic fluid when a normal person open the door. When a handicapped person presses the button, a battery operated solenoid reroutes the pressure to open the door. The main advantage is that it is easy to retrofit existing doors where there is no existing mains wiring near it.In principle, the same idea can recharge electronic door locks or operate transmitters for automation and security purposes.It's usually very easy to extract energy from the environment. Extracting meaningful amounts in a cost effective manner is almost always much more difficult.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 27, 2011, 01:12:42 am
content: Quote from: NiHaoMike on August 27, 2011, 01:02:39 amSure.There will always be niche areas and uses where such schemes make sense though, including your water pipe.Dave.

author: SgtRock
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 27, 2011, 04:52:29 am
content: To All:--In my first post when I started this thread, I said:"Attaching one of these to Dave should allow at least part of Melbourne to go off the grid."--I should have said Sidney, thereby saving 700 kilometers of cable.--Uncle Vernon said:"If you do have a stream on your property [and you want to create your own hydro, you are] liable to be thwarted by all manner of regulation..."--He is right. Here in the USA investigators from the EPA (Envirodicks), would be on you like a duck on a Junebug. The enforcers here are very good at stopping this sort of thing, as well as little girls lemonade stands, but safe streets are a problem for them.NIHaoMike said:"There are regenerative handicap doors out there. One I have seen pressurized hydraulic fluid when a normal person open the door. When a handicapped person presses the button, a battery operated solenoid reroutes the pressure to open the door. The main advantage is that it is easy to retrofit existing doors where there is no existing mains wiring near it."--Now that is a clever use of engineering. Using a dielectric elastomer generator (DEG) as mentioned at the beginning of this thread would allow the batteries to be topped up and allow much less frequent replacement.--I started this thread about DEGs, with the eminently practical idea of using stretch pants to generate power, but then immediately a Trojan Horse is inserted by that Greek madman with some crazy idea to generate power from your water supply. What is it they say; Beware Greeks bearing gifts, or was it gifts bearing Greeks. Just kidding Kiriakos. Best RegardsClear Ether"Three weeks in the lab will save you a day in the library every time" Stanley Williams, HP Labs

author: Dieselrunner88
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2011, 04:35:23 pm
content: I live in USA in North Carolina specifically there is a aluminum plant here that has there own hydro. when they stopped making aluminum and started selling the electricity to the energy company the energy company tried to use the state to steal the hydro from the aluminum company so they wouldn't have to pay for the energy. It almost worked the company had to take the state to court to keep the hydro plant. Imagine what they would do to you if you built one in your back yard?