Intel Laptop CPU with good support for virtual machines? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 03, 2017, 03:03:46 pm
content: I'm thinking about getting a new laptop. One of the things I'd like is to have it run Linux as the base OS and use a virtual machine when Windows is needed. I use the same setup on my PC but I have no clue which Intel CPU to choose when it comes to running one or more virtual machines on a laptop. Ofcourse I don't want to overspend. Power efficiency isn't very important because I have my laptop plugged into mains 99% of the time.

author: theatrus
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 03, 2017, 03:20:05 pm
content: - Make sure it supports VT-x. It would be great if it supported VT-d (IOMMU, virtualized DMA) but I don't know of any mobile oriented CPUs that do off hand (there is a Thinkpad with a Xeon but thats kind silly). Some vendors do shitty things like BIOS disable features with no way to turn it back on.- Max RAM. 16GB minimum. 32GB if you can get it.- Lots of fast disk. A usable Windows install is going to be 100+GB.Since you're running Linux as the base, getting good hardware compatibility with Linux would trump all of the above. I've had great luck on the XPS13 and Carbon X1 Ultrabooks, but if you want a desktop replacement your needs differ

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 03, 2017, 04:04:20 pm
content: Do they sell anything without VT-x any more? VT-d is standard on all Skylake and Kaby Lake mobile CPUs, even the Celerons.If you want to do virt usefully I strongly suggest quad core, preferably with HT (which means an i7).I haven't had hands on the latest models, but I've been happy with Latitudes lately. Not sure I'm happy recommending Lenovo these days. Expect to pay somewhere over €1400 for something decent, though.For best Linux compatibility I recommend avoiding discrete graphics (be warned however, Intel graphics suffer some odd glitches at times) and sticking to Intel wifi.

author: theatrus
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 03, 2017, 04:13:29 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on May 03, 2017, 04:04:20 pmI guess not, also good to know VT-d is going down the product line as well.I can strongly second sticking with Intel Wifi solutions and Intel graphics for Linux.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 03, 2017, 04:15:22 pm
content: Quote from: theatrus on May 03, 2017, 04:13:29 pmHonestly I'm pretty comfortable with nVidia, but the whole dual-card mess on laptops isn't worth the pain.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 03, 2017, 04:39:04 pm
content: I have an nVidia videocard in my desktop Linux machine. It works well with nVidia's own drivers.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 03, 2017, 04:41:35 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on May 03, 2017, 04:39:04 pmThey do, but in a laptop you end up with the Optimus steaming pile. It's a pain to get working right and a waste of power (I know you said you're not worried about that, but another 5W at idle is a lot of heat to get rid of in a laptop).I couldn't tell you where the screen, let alone the external ports, on a laptop are actually connected and whether they have a hardware switch or rely on DMA tricks.

author: GeorgeOfTheJungle
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 03, 2017, 04:46:49 pm
content: I like the 17" unibody i7 MacBook Pros.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 03, 2017, 04:56:21 pm
content: Quote from: GeorgeOfTheJungle on May 03, 2017, 04:46:49 pmwaaahahhahaha.*wanders off*

author: GeorgeOfTheJungle
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 03, 2017, 05:07:47 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on May 03, 2017, 04:56:21 pmWhy?

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 03, 2017, 05:24:20 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on May 03, 2017, 04:41:35 pmOK, that is good to know. BTW I had to plug an old soundblaster PCI card into my new PC because the integrated soundcard wouldn't work but you can't do things like that on a laptop.

author: CJay
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 03, 2017, 05:30:23 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on May 03, 2017, 03:03:46 pmWell I'm setting up HP ZBook Xeon laptops with 32GB RAM and 512GB M2 SSDs at work for the devs who use multiple virtual machines...

author: Twoflower
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 03, 2017, 05:38:10 pm
content: You should check if the BIOS/UEFI supports the VT-* functionality. It's not just that the processors supporting this, but the firmware must enable them correctly.

author: senso
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 03, 2017, 06:40:53 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on May 03, 2017, 04:41:35 pmHow is Optimus a pain to make working?Just start with the original manufacturer drivers for the iGPU and the dGPU and update from there, also, install chipset and Intel ME drivers, they are kinda crucial to have Optimus working correctly, crap happens when you just throw IODriverBoost and/or install Windows10 and pretend that the laptop doesn't need drivers..And where does those extra 5watts come from?I have been using Optimus laptops since Ivy Bridge, ZERO problems, in almost all laptops external ports are connected to the dGPU, if its some compact thingy with only one HDMI it will be provided by the iGPU, or if you choose a Clevo it will be a cluster fuck of some ports from each GPU, and then you have problems with flickering DP outputs..Anything i5/i7 will have no problem with a VM, I'm currently using Win8.1+Ubuntu(dont want nor need more bling in a VM) and I have 8GB of RAM and 4 cores alocated to the VM, all running in an SSD, both OS's are snappy and responsive.VT-* is always supported in the BIOS, some manufacturers preffer to hide those options, but by default they are turned on, its always a bread and butter AMI or Insyde BIOS with little to no costumization done, only locks so you dont mess around, if you want to mess around with a not so bad BIOS, the least bad ones are Asus and MSI, HP Pro lines also have some nice BIOS(not all), and Dell is pretty rare in my country, but going by Alienware they must be pretty crappy, Samsung as the most limited BIOS in the market.So, anything i7, with over 16GB of RAM and at least one SO running on SSD and you are set to go.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 03, 2017, 07:43:34 pm
content: Quote from: senso on May 03, 2017, 06:40:53 pmWe're not talking about Windows.QuoteHaving an unused GPU sat around idling with poor power management capabilities.We're not talking about Windows.

author: senso
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 03, 2017, 08:24:30 pm
content: Get an unlocked BIOS and disable the dGPU if you are not able to use it, or buy a laptop that only as dGPU, msi as a couple, as does Clevo, I'm currently only using my 980m..Or patch some ACPI tables so your linux distro plays nice with your hardware, there are SOME options.Or use Windows and boot into a VM as soon as Windows boots, no more bad drivers for the linux to struggle with.As said, you have some XPS's that are even sold with Ubuntu already installed, no Windows buggey man.Or if you want a true DTR, get a Clevo P775DM3 with a desktop CPU and one dGPU, no Optimus, or any MSI GT7x that will also run with only the dGPU, my GT72 gets around 3h battery without Optimus(aka running only on the 980m).

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 03, 2017, 08:26:15 pm
content: Quote from: senso on May 03, 2017, 08:24:30 pmAnd when some of the ports are hardwired to it..QuoteIt's nothing to do with ACPI tables.

author: senso
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 03, 2017, 08:31:39 pm
content: Then, either get a laptop without a dGPU or one that only uses the dGPU, or try a recent system and try it out and see if Optimus is still as bad as some paint it.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 03, 2017, 08:33:33 pm
content: Quote from: senso on May 03, 2017, 08:31:39 pmWhich is exactly what I already suggested. Thanks for playing.QuoteIt doesn't matter how recent the system is, there is no good infrastructure for manhandling it under Linux. And there's limited incentive to fix this as nVidia are not cooperative.

author: senso
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 03, 2017, 08:37:35 pm
content: Sorry for missing that you are using LinuxSo, do you want any model suggestion?

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 03, 2017, 08:42:03 pm
content: Quote from: cleaningOut on May 03, 2017, 07:01:55 pmSo i5 or i7 and Intel graphics it is then. BTW I want a laptop to bring along to customers every now and then.

author: theatrus
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2017, 03:45:24 pm
content: It's going to get the standard derision of "what Apple", but the pre-touchbar MacBook Pros ran Linux flawlessly, even with their Broadcom WiFi chipset - the only thing that never worked was the camera, which is a featureSince it used an output video mux and none of this "route display signals back through the integrated graphics" stuff all the external displays worked flawlessly.All of this of course is out for the new touchbar models.

author: CJay
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2017, 04:49:38 pm
content: Shame, because the Apple Hardware really is rather pretty and was always good quality. (nope, not a fanboi, I loathe the company but can separate that from their engineering abilities)Nice to know the older Apple HW isn't dead when Apple say it is though

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2017, 05:33:20 pm
content: I wouldn't say always good quality, they've found at least one way to screw up pretty much every model of Macbook so far.Dodgy screens, lids which crack because they're too thin, overheating, etc etc etc.

author: GeorgeOfTheJungle
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2017, 07:09:16 pm
content: Yes the 17" unibody i7s had an issue with the graphic card but hopefully by now all have been repaired already under the repair extension programs. The 17" unibody i5s had no such problem. The battery (that is huge, 85Wh IIRC), disks and ram can be upgraded unlike in later models, and the display is gorgeous.

author: hans
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2017, 10:11:02 pm
content: Another +1 to avoid NVIDIA graphics in Linux laptops.I use Lenovo P50 machine with NVIDIA quadro graphics on Xubuntu 16.04. External graphic ports are unusable when using Intel GPU. Need to log off Xorg session to switch between NVIDIA/Intel. Setting up bumblebee or whatever seemed cumbersome, so I just keep relogging. Above all idle power (powertop) is dramatically different: ~5-6W with Intel GPU and 15W on NVIDIA GPU. For me that is the difference between making it 1 day on the battery (easily 10+ hours on light work) or need a charger mid day (6 hours idle on NVIDIA).And that considering the capabilities of this GPU, almost any desktop chip worth it's money will beat it. Fortunately NVIDIA and Intel drivers do work well when running in either mode.16GB of RAM is a minimum but lots of laptops will support that after upgrade. This P50 even has 4 memory slots for up to 64GB, but I that's rare to find in other machines.M.2 SSDs is also nice for fast I/O. I'm not sure how the performance is in Linux though, because I read some people reported they didn't get performance as specified on the box. But still it'sfast.Avoid ultrabooks, or at least come to terms with how much CPU utilization you need on your VM's and host. A netbook i5 or i7 (denoted by U suffix) is more like a mainstream laptop i3 at best, considering they're all dual core parts. (ofcourse with hyperthreading/frequency differences)VT-x is supported on virtually any modern CPU. Even the Atom x8300 found in some Windows tablets have VT-x.VT-d is also quite commonly supported nowadays. Even my home server with a Pentium G4400 (a 50$ chip) has all of these features.Lenovo probably has some nice offerings without NVIDIA GPU's as well, however I got this machine on a massive college discount, so not sure if they are worth their money.

author: Paul Moir
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 08, 2017, 09:19:39 am
content: Please let us know what you end up going with. My use and need is identical to yours except I don't need to show it off to customers.I'm currently getting by with an 8 year old Acer with an SSD, lots of RAM and Intel WiFi retrofitted, but it's starting to hamper my productivity.

author: figgie
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2017, 04:00:05 pm
content: ANY laptop/desktop/workstation that has Intel vPRO CPU will support virtualization (hyper-v, VMware, virtualbox etc)http://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/products/processors/core/core-vpro.html