200-250€ camera for PCB work? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: tomasis
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2022, 02:53:42 pm
content: Hi,im looking for a camera for PCB work. Guide PC210 or Uti 260B look nice but I dont afford them so im looking for one in half price.Would UTI690A with macrolens work? do you have other recommendations?thanks in advance

author: tomasis
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2022, 04:25:22 pm
content: i couldnt wait and i ordered 690a

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2022, 05:14:09 pm
content: Tomasis,Lower resolution can still be made to work well with PCB analysis if you can use a close-up lens to get closer to the target.The camera lens field of view will also influence the results. By way of an example, consider the following…Thermal camera A has a 320 x 240 pixel microbolometer and 24 Degree field of view (good general specs for PCB work)Thermal camera B has a 320 x 240 pixel microbolometer and a 48 Degree field of view lensThermal camera C has a 160 x 120 pixel microbolometer and a 24 Degree field of view lensThermal camera D has a 160 x 120 pixel microbolometer and a 12 Degree field of view lensAn object is being observed with Thermal camera ‘A’ at a distance of 30cm. What has to be done for cameras B,C and D to produce the same amount of resolution related detail of the target ? …….Camera B will need to be positioned at half the distance from the target (15cm)Camera C will need to be positioned at half the distance from the target (15cm)Camera D will need to be positioned at the same distance as camera A (30cm)As you decrease the field of view to compensate for lower optical FPA resolution you also reduce the target scene area that may be viewed. The same is true as you move closer to the target. This is an acceptable compromise in many PCB analysis scenarios.In the case of your UTI-260A camera you will likely need to select a short focus distance ZnSe supplemental lens to compensate for the low FPA resolution. I would recommend a ZnSe lens that provides focus at 50mm distance plus maybe one that provides 25mm focus distance for looking at very small SMD components. You can go down to 15mm focus distance lenses but it can sometimes be challenging to get that close to a PCBA if there are tall components such as large electrolytic capacitors or heatsinks present.Obviously you would be better served by a camera offering a higher resolution but you are working within a tight budget and so compromises are needed. The UTI-260A should meet your needsI have even used 80 x 60 pixel thermal cameras for basic PCB analysis. That still worked well enough to spot unusual areas of heat or cold and was far from useless even at such low resolution.Hope this helpsFraser

author: tomasis
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2022, 10:19:53 pm
content: thanks, i did read pew85 thread, that's why i ordered. I knew it'd be good enough for me.I will get 20mm FL50.8 and FL25.4 like you advise. I prob repair boards/electronics max 10 times per year. Also use it for general use (cooking, house insulation, automotive).I bet the prices drop in future and we see bigger sensorsI think 200 eur is reasonable for amateurs especially 25 fps.

author: Rambo Sonny
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2022, 08:16:08 am
content: consider about Infiray P2 pro. just release to market. I got a P2 in hand, 256*192 detector. around $250. size is amazing small, image is clear enough.

author: tomasis
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2022, 12:31:57 pm
content: both T2S+ and 2 Pro cost 350-400. P2 needs macro lens. For same price, Guide PC210 is nice.Nice to have a separate device. USB connection is pain in ass as it stops working at some point. I have to rely on wireless charging for Samsung S21 lol.

author: tomasis
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2022, 12:32:45 pm
content: Quote from: johnlee760101 on September 19, 2022, 08:35:56 ami dont see a link

author: MLXXXp
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2022, 09:23:14 pm
content: Quote from: Fraser on September 18, 2022, 05:14:09 pmWould this be a suitable lens, as you described? (The 12mm diameter, 50.8mm focal length one.)https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4000570268415.html

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2022, 09:27:47 pm
content: Yes. So long as you buy one with a large enough diameter for your particular camera. Look at the threads discussing your model of camera to establish the diameter of lens required. IIRC the 12mm lens will work with the Uni-T UTi-260a and UTi-260b cameras. It should also work fine with the UTi-690 models as well.CVD lenses are better performing than PVD but cost a little more. In your application it may not make much difference though.Fraser

author: MLXXXp
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2022, 10:17:00 pm
content: Quote from: Fraser on September 19, 2022, 09:27:47 pmThanks @FraserThis is for a UTi260B. I decided to get a CVD lens, 20mm dia. just in case, even though you said 12mm will probably work.https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32311649296.htmlI'll make something similar to this for it:https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005004402403633.html

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2022, 10:21:11 pm
content: Good call,I always buy the 20mm diameter as then you are using the centre area of the lens rather than the lower optical performance outer area.Fraser

author: thermalengineer
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 20, 2022, 03:31:39 am
content: Only know this link, please check:https://www.infiray.com/products/thermal-camera-for-smartphone/

author: Bonnie.Liran
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: September 21, 2022, 07:43:19 am
content: Hello, buddy, how about infiray P2 and T2S+ ? I heard they have new model of P2pro. These models are applicable for the PCB boards checking.

author: Bill W
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 28, 2022, 10:34:09 am
content: Quote from: Artem Kashkanov on September 28, 2022, 08:51:39 amWhy would they ?The T2S+ is a phone attach sensor head, the request is for aCOMPLETE CAMERA.Suggest asking your training supervisor at Infiray what the difference is and which of your products might actually be suitable.

author: tomasis
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2022, 03:44:34 pm
content: its okay .. complete camera or not.One can build 3d printed grip, a holder for phone plus a camera holder separately so it resembles the typical thermal camera.I saw that P2 dropped in price so the UniT with 2x Laser lenses equals to a P2 camera.. Other Infiray camerac cost from €350 and above.So P2 is still relevant despite shortcomings.

author: markb1980
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2022, 11:49:13 am
content: I have tryed a InfiRay P2 Pro with the magnetic macro adapter (see 2nd sample). I would say if you want a cheap and capeable camera and you don't mind it's a phone accessory instead of a standalone camera give it a try...If you prefer a standalone camera have a look at the InfiRay C200 or GuideIR PC210 - both can be found at Aliexpress sometimes for 350 USD.

author: katzenhai2
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 30, 2022, 09:47:16 pm
content: Also keep in mind that the Infiray P2 Pro has a NETD of ≤50mk that was measured with a f1.0 lens. But the P2 Pro has a f1.1 lens so this equals to a real NETD of≤60mk(formula see below). For PCB inspections okay but if you want to use it for other purposes there are better thermal cameras already on the market with low as ≤35mk that has a lens with f1.0 (as tested for their NETD).Formula:SQR( [f of used lens] ) * [NETD Specification] = Real NETD of deviceExample (Specification of NETD: ≤50mk with f1.0, but using f1.1 lens)SQR( 1.1 ) * 50 =≤60.5mk

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 01, 2022, 12:11:55 pm
content: Be a little careful when focussing on manufacturers NeTD figures. NeTD is a long abused specification in the World of thermal imaging systems marketing ! This has been discussed several times previously on this forum. For true low noise thermography you are in the realm of cooled thermal imaging systems that can reduce the internal noise of the detector in order to provide amazing thermal scene sensitivity or permit the use of slower lenses for still acceptable MRTD.MRTD is often a more reliable indicator of a thermal imaging systems sensitivity as it provides an insight into what can actually be detected with a complete thermal imaging system, rather than a laboratory conditions NeTD test of a sensor and F1.0 lens combination. There have been many cases of NeTD being stated that cannot, in the real world, be achieved without little tricks in software that give a false impression of true detector or sensor NeTD.Increased resolution at affordable prices is definitely something many of us on this forum hope for. That said, affordable higher resolution microbolometers will use the smallest possible pixel size to achieve small die sizes. Such small pixels can lead to lower signal to noise ratio in the system and so poorer MRTD. ASIA is producing some very interesting microbolometer technology now but there appears a desire to produce FPA’s with 256 x 192 pixels as the main mass market product. This may be the sweet spot where microbolometer yield, production cost, NeTD and image quality conjoin to create a viable profit model for the OEM. Increasing resolution may increase reduction costs exponentially and the makers of the thermal cameras are mainly interested in making affordable mass produced thermal cameras that can be sold in large numbers with decent margins. The Consumer market is very different to that of the Science and Military markets where imaging performance can drive development of systems that are expensive to manufacture.Fraser

author: katzenhai2
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 01, 2022, 04:10:49 pm
content: Quote from: Fraser on December 01, 2022, 12:11:55 pmYou're right. The NeTD information is no absolute number and can mean different things between competitors. It also depends on so many other things such as internal image processing, processing quality and the like how good a thermal camera is in terms of correct measurement.I don't see the numbers as absolute but if one manufacturer advertises e.g. ≤40mk and the other launches a new camera and says ≤35mk then he must see that he has an appropriately perceptible thermal resolution in order to be able to match or surpass the competition. In this respect I see the NeTD information as a reference or comparative value. Another manufacturerwillhave worse thermal resolution if they advertise ≤70mk instead. At least thats my impression so far.

author: Bill W
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 01, 2022, 06:17:41 pm
content: Quote from: katzenhai2 on December 01, 2022, 04:10:49 pmNot necessarily.....The older ULIS (Lynred) ASi are quoted at <100 / 120mK, but exceed this by a lot.Their later detectors are quoted at <60mK, and always were.All detectors tested and any over NETD went in the bin.Many other manufacturers either quote 'typical < 50 mK' . What does that even mean ?Maybe that 49% of their detectors are over 50mK ?