I've caught the disease! I'm a single-payer (bench equipment) - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / beginners

author: vinito
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 17, 2018, 12:19:39 am
content: Hi folks.I have been puttering with electronics for decades and not learning much. I need a more systematic approach with hands-on lab play along with some kind of workbook thing I can solve problems on paper and actually learn something. You know, like classes in electronics used to offer but seem to be long gone these days. But this is kind of a tangent (though advice on it is welcome)Anyway, I've collected some cheap stuff over the years and have a modest bench - a couple power supplies, basic cheap old signal generator, couple cheap decent handheld multimeters, good soldering stuff and boxes & shelves of components, modules and the like.Earlier this year I got a great deal on a new GWInstek 2072A oscilloscope (~$300) and that might have tipped the load off balance. Ever since then I've been watching reviews and reading a bunch about other equipment I don't need. But much of the modern stuff isSOmuch better than what I've got, I guess I simply got envious.A few weeks ago my main bench power supply started acting up and was never that great to begin with, so I started looking into a new one rather than try to fix it (not yet anyway). That story ends with me receiving a Rigol DP832 today. Holy cow that thing issooomuch nicer than what I'm used to! I imagine that I'll use 1/4 of it's capabilities on my path, but you never know I guess. I couldn't fight off the nagging bug and I ended up ordering a Siglent SDM3055 bench multimeter a couple hours ago. It's another thing I don't see myself actually needing much (at least yet) but I couldn't help it. Plus when I do use the thing, I'm sure it will be such a pleasure to experience compared to what I'm used to. I'm not positive yet, but I think I've caught that electronics buying bug I've heard you guys talk about. My wallet isn't totally empty yet so maybe I don't have an acute case of it, but then again the day is young.I accessorized my purchases with some various connector odds & ends, plus more significantly a couple books that sound like they might fit what I need for actually learning some electronics. Honestly I do OK now and then, but my knowledge in the area is spotty and shallow and I always wanted to have a much more solid ability in the field, though always as a hobbyist.The books I ordered are "Practical Electronics for Inventors" (Scherz and Monk) and "All New Electronics Self-Teaching Guide" (Kybett and Boysen). Hopefully they'll be a good fit for where I'm at. Winter is knocking at the door and this stuff might be a really good way to rationalize this winter's atrophy and weight gainI'm currently upgrading my physical bench from a thrift store desk to a 12' long built-in wall thing. So with the new bench, new equipment and a couple good books, I hope to crack the egg if only a little over the next few months. I have a couple dozen ideas I'd like to experiment with and implement eventually, but I always run into the brick wall of ignorance so quickly and I'm gonna try my best to push that wall back at least a bit.So I don't quite know what this post is. I either need help with this addiction or just encouragement. FYI, encouragement will experience less resistance.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 17, 2018, 12:46:22 am
content: A systematic approach would include "The Art of Electronics" (textbook) plus "Learning the Art of Electronics" (lab manual).I have the DP832 and it's a great supply. I also bought a Siglent SDG 2082X Arbitrary Waveform Generator and a Rigol DS1054Z.I have been messing around with this stuff for 60+ years and it's just lately I have bought pretty nice equipment. I bought a Tektronix 485 scope a long time back and it still works.I really like the Digilent Analog Discovery 2 as a handy bench device. Dual channel scope, dual channel arbitrary waveform generator, 16 digital signals (input or output) that work as a logic analyzer, etc. It is truly a workbench in a box. I could use that gadget plus my laptop and not miss out on much.Have fun!

author: vinito
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 17, 2018, 01:17:10 am
content: Thanks for the quick reply!I saw those books and considered them too, but I can only read one page at a time so figured I'd start where I did. They're on the reading list though.I ain't too far behind you regarding vintage. But I didn't take advantage of the times and boy do I regret it. There's no telling what I'd be able to do had I dove in and started learning this stuff when I was a wee lad. I feel pretty stupid... well I AM pretty stupid. Isknowingyou're stupid a good or bad thing? I can't remember what the philosophers verdict was on that score.I ran across that Digilent device a few months ago too. Looks pretty clever. I have a skepticism about things that do everything so didn't look at it very closely. I'm probably wrong about that too.

author: ArthurDent
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 17, 2018, 03:19:22 pm
content: Vinito, you seem to really be checking into what equipment will work for you and will eventually end up with a lot of good stuff. The only thing you need now is a second job to help pay for all the goodies. Good luck!

author: vinito
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 17, 2018, 05:49:50 pm
content: Thanks.Yeah I've been trying to read and watch lots of reviews. The stuff shown slowly rose to the top. Frequently it seems like some stuff looks good at first then further diving exposes problems, while other stuff that shows weaknesses at first gets fixed over time (via firmware updates or hardware changes, etc.), so a guy really has to spend a bit of time before pulling the trigger. Both the PS and Siglent multimeter had show-stopping problems at first, but looks like they are both pretty slick now (for the price).As I get older, I've settled into the notion that buying cheap and possible broken "projects" are OK for a while, but whether you're talking carpenter tools, yard equipment or electronics metrology, etc., burning a bit more money up front both saves time spent being frustrated as well as making the user experience more enjoyable along the way. I did phase one for a couple decades, so thus begins phase two I guess. I won't blame my lack of learning on having sub-standard equipment - that's totally my own fault. But as I move forward I'm sure I'll enjoy the time spent a little more having a bit nicer equipment to fondle.I am just a little scared though. The money has been flowing outward pretty fast the past couple weeks. I haven't proven to have the discipline to put nose to grindstone for my education in this, but I need to come to my senses and put the brakes on, at least for a while."I can do it!"We'll see.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 17, 2018, 10:26:49 pm
content: Quote from: vinito on November 17, 2018, 05:49:50 pmIf you find yourself getting caught up in this, we have a "support"group that may prove useful with some of those concerns. Not so much to help you address them - just to live with them.Much research has gone into many aspects, which has resulted in something akin to a group identity statement, some useful links and an extensive glossary. These resources can be found in the first post of this thread:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/test-equipment-anonymous-(tea)-group-therapy-thread/Discussions are to be found in the rest of the thread. You are sure to be welcomed there.

author: vinito
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2018, 01:09:07 am
content: I know about that "support group" and that's a load of malarkey. It's not a group which encourages any healing, but rather enabling in a deep way... yeah I'll fit right in.I do like that glossary. Never read through much of it before. It'll take weeks for me to become familiar with most of those acronyms - a worthy endeavor indeed.By the way, I do have this affliction bad enough that I'm upgrading my bench (as mentioned). The project is obviously very early in and only just started it. It'll have insulation, wiring & lighting built-in along with the top and shelving and such. I thought I might share some progress pics here as I go. I might have it functional by tomorrow night and maybe somewhere close to what I can call "finished" in a week or two. That day job thing is starting to cut into my fun time.The original (4 hobbies in 1 crammed in there):

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 18, 2018, 12:10:43 pm
content: Nice effort.Won't be big enough. (They never are).Quote from: vinito on November 18, 2018, 01:09:07 amThought you might.Nice power strip on the old desk.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 18, 2018, 06:42:14 pm
content: Quote from: vinito on November 17, 2018, 01:17:10 amEvery time I bring up the AD2, it gets dismissed as some kind of gimmick or toy. Except by those of us who use it! It just looks too tiny to be serious.One comparison spec: The AD2 uses a 14 bit ADC, the Rigol DS1054Z scope uses an 8 bit ADC. Hm... Which has better resolution? OK, the sample rate of the Rigol is 10x the AD2 but most educational projects aren't working at very high MHz. The AD2 bandwidth is 30 MHz, the Rigol is 100 MHz.Here's an idea! Figure out how to create a Bode' plot of an RC circuit (low pass filter) and get a hardcopy (scaled properly) for your notebook. Use anything you have! I'll wait... waiting...It depends entirely on what you want to do with electronics. There is no real reason for an Arduino user to ever have need of a Bode' plot. But a budding electronics guy? Sure! It's fundamental. Yes, it can be pencil whipped - we did that back in the days of slide rules because we didn't HAVE anything else. Actually, we used an HP Audio Signal Generator and a scope or VTVM (the DMM hadn't been invented) to measure the output voltage versus frequency. We just plotted points and connected them. Not entirely satisfying but it got the point across.That Bode' plot is trivial with the AD2. It has the signal generator, it has the Network tool. Do a few filters and you have a good handle on them.The AD2 truly is a lab in a small box. Unfortunately, it isn't cheap by the time you toss in a couple of probes and the BNC adapter board.https://store.digilentinc.com/analog-discovery-2-pro-bundle/It is really aimed at students who are learning electronics in college as opposed to those hobbyists who build stuff from plans.It's worth the time to download the Waveforms software and play with the demos. Just to get a feel for the kinds of tools available...

author: WallyGator
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: November 21, 2018, 12:52:06 am
content: Quote from: rstofer on November 18, 2018, 06:42:14 pmI thought I would de-lurk and say thanks for the reference. I downloaded the WaveForms software to run in demo mode and it looks very interesting. While poking around the Digilent site I saw they are doing Cyber Week sales next week with daily emails containing discount coupons for several of their products, including the Analog Discovery 2. It is necessary to sign up for the emails at their web site.https://resources.digilentinc.com/deals/I have no idea how much the discount will be, but the sign-up confirmation email said:Quote

author: vinito
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 21, 2018, 03:44:38 am
content: I finally got a chance to make a little progress on the bench. Once it's done I'll probably outgrow it a week later. But for now I'm loving the look of the 12-foot length and no legs in the way out front.Oh yeah I just remembered something important too. Being on an equipment "kick", I figured an electronic load might be kinda handy. After seeing Dave's, Martin Lorton's and Peter Oakes's videos (and I'm sure there are more) I figured one of my first bench projects will be to tweak those and design & build one to suit my own needs & wants. Seems like a good way to learn a bit about MOSFETs and Op-Amps and general ohm's law practice with a couple other small tidbits for good measure. For a load, I won't need anything fancy or expensive maybe ever, but at least for a long time. So this seems like a worthy, fun and educational project.

author: glue_ru
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 21, 2018, 04:51:23 am
content: I see your scope is center, is that the most common used piece? I use the , IM-13, B&K 360 VOMatic, DMM and soldering station the most.So I arrange mine to usage, and bring seldom used gear off the shelf and use as needed. And because I have too much to put on the benchand I don't want a wall of equipment I rarely use in front of me. I have windows on 3 sides, so daylight is real nice to work in.and I only have 22 outlets on 2 circuits, 1 long strip down each side under the window sill. the left one on an Isotral 15 amp filter.

author: vinito
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 21, 2018, 05:09:23 am
content: The scope was about the only bench "piece" I had.Otherwise I had a power supply bench left and a very seldom used signal generator (cheap deal) shelf left.Now that I'm gonna have a nice bench DMM, it will undoubtedly be used the most and will be prominent.But it almost doesn't matter much at the beginning because my plan is to build several rails of french cleats so I can mount shelves and racks of all sorts along the wall. Since they are so modular, I can pretty quickly re-arrange things as I go.I'm a rookie at this so I'm sure no matter what I do at the start, it'll be way wronger than what I'll settle into after some time. The cleat thing will be my friend on that I think.Dang I let the cat out of the bag. The french cleats were going to be a surprise.Since I'm revealing design ideas though, I was originally going to wire up the bench, but decided that it might be better to run some raceway kind of track for the power kind of hidden but on the surface so I can maybe re-arrange that more easily later if necessary. Who am I kidding? I'm sure it will be necessary as it also will be wronger at first than it will later.And as a bonus (or maybe just to add insult to injury?) I have a compressor nearby so thought I'd plumb up some 1/4" PEX line over to the bench for some easy access for compressed air. Plan to add separator & regulator, etc. I don't know if I'll need it much, but it might be handy.

author: Johncanfield
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 22, 2018, 12:08:04 am
content: I just built V2.0 of my electronics workbench (and ham radio station desk.) It appears I got it mostly right this timeThe workbench is 8 feet long and 3 feet wide. The top is two sheets of 3/4" plywood and the entire bench is on rolling casters (wheels.) My major failure on V1.0 is the top was not deep enough, if I ever build V2.5, I would use the entire 4x8 foot sheet of plywood. Having the ability to roll the bench around is priceless.My test equipment runs from 30 year old stuff to very modern, some of my older equipment is my first choice to use like my HP 34401A multimeter.Like you I got back into electronics a few years ago.

author: gcewing
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 22, 2018, 12:48:16 am
content: Don't worry, as long as you have a bit of money left over to buy some parts to play with, you'll be fine. Oh, and some food too.

author: rhb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 22, 2018, 01:25:09 am
content: Over the course of the last 18 months or so I finally decided to buy a proper test bench at age 65. I've spent about $12K, mostly HP except for a Tek 485 and a LeCroy DDA-125. Almost a 1/4 of that was a Keysight 33622A from their eBay store. All the rest is 20 year old HP label. I've also got some Chinese stuff, Instek, Rigol, Tenma but the quality difference is really striking.I'm still a little shocked, as I've bought one new vehicle for myself, in my entire life, a base model 1993 Toyota pickup with A/C for $7800 at age 40. But the test gear has proven to be one of the best decisions I've ever made. I've always wanted to play with electronics at a serious level, but was put off by the high cost of test gear. With no real hope of work in the oil industry again and several good friends dead already, I decided it was time.I have 4' x 7' for the electronics in a 10'x 7' room with 5 computers, 3 monitors and two printers. It's been a huge, very time consuming puzzle to fit it all in, but it's worked out nicely.BTW I suggest some knee braces for your bench. The construction in the photo will not hold up and is a considerable risk for dumping everything on the floor with a lot of noise and unpleasant consequences.

author: vinito
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 22, 2018, 04:03:37 am
content: "BTW I suggest some knee braces for your bench. The construction in the photo will not hold up and is a considerable risk for dumping everything on the floor with a lot of noise and unpleasant consequences."The braces are stronger then they appear. I weigh over 200lbs and if I sit my weight ononeof the horizontal braces, it drops about 1/16" without being tied to the bench nor or the 1-1/2" perimeter I'll be attaching to it. I'm pretty sure it'll be rock solid once it's done. The concern is understandable, but it's much more than just nails and prayers. Thanks.Also, the bulk of equipment and such will end up on shelves above the bench, so most of the weight will be up there as well. It's all part of my evil master plan.

author: bitseeker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 22, 2018, 04:14:00 am
content: Welcome to the forum, vinito!Quote from: vinito on November 18, 2018, 01:09:07 amAh, yes, but it is a support group. Encouragement is very supportive. Plus, I don't think it would've lasted so long had it been about dwindling its membership by curing them.Don't take it too seriously, though. We certainly don't. Otherwise, it won't be fun anymore.QuoteLooks like you're off to a great start on the new work space and bench. Then, you'll have plenty of room for more gear. Seriously, though, don't forget about your books and projects. It is easy to get sidetracked, but you do still learn stuff along the way.

author: rhb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 22, 2018, 01:27:22 pm
content: Quote from: vinito on November 22, 2018, 04:03:37 amIf you've got a metal clip in addition to nails, it should hold up fine. My concern was that it was *just* nails. And I know from 50 odd years of experience (I learned everything but masonry helping my dad), that does not hold up long term. My space is very small. I had intended a larger space in my 1500 sq ft shop, but decided that wood and metal work was not very compatible with electronics.Plan your power distribution. The 6-8 outlet power strips don't work well with lots of gear because of the volume of the cords.I've attached a some pictures of my setup which I made by cutting the IEC end of of power cords.I have switched 3 circuits, lights only, test gear only and soldering equipment only. The soldering circuit has a light which is on if that circuit is live. Any one of the switched instrument feeds can be made always on for things like a GPSDO.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 22, 2018, 01:28:38 pm
content: holy shit put some epoxy on that lab flooralso, where is your moisture barrier?

author: vinito
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 22, 2018, 11:45:33 pm
content: Quote from: coppercone2 on November 22, 2018, 01:28:38 pmI don't know if you were talking to me or rhb, but that does bring up a question for me.I have the styrofoam put into my wall there to buffer the cool draftiness of the wall for more comfort. I was thinking about putting some kind of thin laminate flooring over some thin-ish insulating underlayment to maybe help with the same thing for under foot. It won't be the whole basement, just a ways around the bench since there will be a lot of sitting in one place going on there. Big enough so a rolling chair will easily stay atop it, etc. I suppose I could possibly add some active heating as well, but probably not as I don't want too much of a step up to the bench area as well as the inefficiency of electric heat, especially with a concrete slab trying to suck it away. Not sure what I wanna do there yet, but whatever I do can be added pretty easily later too.Pretty solid power feeds there rhb. I'll be spreading some outlets around a bit but only over 2 circuits, but that should suit me plenty fine. I like your ideas though and may adapt a bit of that for myself eventually.

author: rhb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 23, 2018, 12:23:13 am
content: Coppercone's point about moisture barrier is important. At a minimum, paint the entire floor and any exposed concrete or masonry walls with the cheapest latex paint you can buy. The laminate requires a moisture barrier between it and a concrete floor. It's a good argument for doing the entire floor if you can afford it. Consider it the first step in remodeling the basement. Build an interior wall for your work space, insulate it and put down laminate.High humidity leads to corrosion around solder joints and lots of other *interesting* misery. You really don't want to learn first hand as I have. One of the main reasons I have a tiny work area in my house rather than a large work area in my shop is humidity.The photo is a tool holder I made of 18 gauge (0.040") aluminum sheet and mounted on a $13 articulated monitor mount. It's tucked back in the RH corner along with the soldering gear on a sliding platform. It's very easy to make. I'll eventually get around to posting about how to do it. It took me a couple of iterations to sort out. Having a tool holder designed for *your* tools is far superior to trying to use a "one size fits all".

author: glue_ru
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 23, 2018, 02:02:03 am
content: +1 on the knee braces, one day you'll wish you had added them, at least 3, one on each end and one centered would provide 10x support and stability.After decades of building experience, that design will last, but never with a 100's or a 1000 pounds on it, it will eventually leverage/split the wall studs apart.

author: rhb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 23, 2018, 03:04:15 am
content: My thought was short 6-8" braces on each stud. I *have* seen a number of metal clips fail.Side fastened to the horizontal member and in compression against the stud, there will *never* be a problem unless you exceed the strength of a 2x4.

author: vinito
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 23, 2018, 03:06:39 am
content: QuoteYeah I agree. Fortunately my basement is already dry. I've been here 19 years.I did a little looking and it appears I can get some laminate flooring atop some insulating underlayment and add an electric heater (draws roughly 350W) layer under it for pretty frugal money. I think I'd be relatively happy with just a bit of insulation, but an actual warm floor would probably be pretty sweet.As for the bench, a single support sags around 1/16" when I put all my fat on the outside end. There are 9 of them, plus a plywood top. I figure it will maybe see maximum 50lbs or so on it total... ever. It's an extravagant desk folks. I hammer and slam on the benches in the shop. This one is for electronics, computer and other hobby things."My thought was short 6-8" braces on each stud."That is pretty much what I did. Glued & screwed, so it's pretty much all one board now really. Screws mostly just clamp until the glue sets up. Wood glue has impressive strength. Not sure if you noticed so I'll zoom in.

author: rhb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 23, 2018, 02:14:14 pm
content: That construction will hold up just fine. It was not apparent from the other photo. But very well thought out design.Keep an eye out of someone throwing away a door. Build insulated walls, sheetrock is cheap and easy if you know how. And easy to learn. I've taught a couple of people in the past couple of years. Even without the door you'll be a lot more comfortable and a wall of shelving 6-7 feet behind you will provide very convenient storage.Then the heater will do a much better job of keeping you warm. On the outside walls, mount thin furring strips and put some reflective barrier insulation on with the foil facing the airgap. A reflective Mylar sheet is about 98% efficient *if and only if* the reflective surface is facing a dead air space.

author: vinito
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 23, 2018, 09:43:14 pm
content: Some days are better than others. Today is starting out pretty gooder.The post just dropped off both my SDM3055 (complete with most current firmware) and a Seek Reveal Pro I ordered last weekend. Woohoo! I must say that compared to the noob hacky stuff I'm used to owning, that DM is awfully nice. The leads alone, while I'm sure are pretty run-of-the-mill of the decent quality range equipment, are extremely high quality compared to what I'm used to fondling.Also, found a can of paint in the corner which will be perfect for the bench top as opposed to the crap I was probably going to end up dragging home from the big box store today. Kind of an afterthought to remember I had it so I got lucky.So just soaking up all the good luck today without having to leave the house.

author: bitseeker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2018, 02:47:22 am
content: Sounds like a great way to spend a holiday weekend. Let us know your impressions of the new gear after you've had some quality time with them.

author: Old Printer
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2018, 03:13:16 am
content: Again I will echo the value of the Analog Discovery as a learning tool. YouTube poster TomTekTest has many videos about the value and use of this device. A couple years ago the price of this unit skyrocketed, but for a long time the original AD was sold to students for $99 and many of those units come to market on ebay. A lot of them sell for close to $200 but if you are persistent they can be had for much less. I recently got one for $50 shipped. The difference between the AD1 & AD2 is only in the power supply section and is actually not that important. Don't pass up on a deal for one of these because it is not the later AD2, 98% of the functionality is the same.

author: vinito
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 29, 2018, 11:08:08 pm
content: Well since I already have a good scope, a basic function generator and a clone logic analyzer, the Discovery would be extra money for nothin' in my case.Anyways, I'm slowly closing in on a functional bench. Just have to add some shelves and some power and I can use it. I'll build some simple shelf boxes this weekend and for now a power strip will do until I get a slicker power arrangement up & running.

author: rhb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 30, 2018, 12:21:25 am
content: Looks very nice, but you may have issues if you buy older gear. I had to move my bench a full 20" from the wall to accommodate my HP gear.

author: bitseeker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 30, 2018, 03:26:52 am
content: Beautiful benchtop, that is.

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 30, 2018, 04:36:38 am
content: Quote from: vinito on November 29, 2018, 11:08:08 pmDon't you have a problem with dust in this place?

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 02, 2018, 12:05:59 am
content: Quote from: vinito on November 23, 2018, 03:06:39 amIf you're saying a 12' bench will maybe see a maximum of 50lbs on it in total - my reaction is to say "You're dreaming."I have no qualms that your bench will support much more than that, especially having seen the bracing you put in place (and the studs are up to it), but it doesn't take a lot of stuff to crack 50lbs.However, if you are saying that will be 50lbsper support arm, then I view your numbers as realistic and moderately conservative.

author: vinito
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2018, 08:59:16 am
content: QuoteMeh, maybe. It'll have a PC, soldering stuff and maybe 2 or 3 instruments and some hand tools on it most of the time - depends on how clean I'm able to keep it.I'm hoping to keep the bench itself open for actual elbow room and work-in-progress space.But yeah, I weigh over 200lbs. (90Kg) and my full weight saggedonesupport down 1/16" (1-2mm) on the outside end. Put 'em all together and the bench should support a small orgy or at least a short nap.I'm chomping at the bit to start setting it up but I'm having a pretty busy weekend and starting to run out of time. I'm thinking of settling on mounting my old shelves to the wall for now until I get some deeper ones constructed. The old shelves are no more than 12" (300mm) deep and for me that's just not enough, but better than nuthin'.You metric fanboys make these posts more complicated than they have to be. Base 10 is way overrated!

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 02, 2018, 11:51:16 am
content: Quote from: vinito on December 02, 2018, 08:59:16 am..... and the truth comes out.Quote from: vinito on December 02, 2018, 08:59:16 amOnce you get over the "resistance to change" barrier, itisactually easier. Been there, done that. I don't expect you to appreciate that until you get there - if you ever do.

author: GreyWoolfe
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 02, 2018, 01:02:19 pm
content: Quote from: vinito on December 02, 2018, 08:59:16 am

author: vinito
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 09, 2018, 07:51:35 pm
content: QuoteDid I say that out loud?heheh.QuoteThere is something valid with the world being smaller than olden times to use interchangeable systems, but that's the only value in metric that holds up to scrutiny.The first thing that should have been a determining factor in picking useful units is simply: "What are the benefits of number systems under consideration?"To assume that base 10 embodies some kind of obvious superiority is short-sighted. Yeah, OK, you can just move decimal points on paper. Hurrah.We familiar with tech stuff accept that binary, octal, hex and decimal all have their place and benefits. The same is true for ancient systems. They didn't just drop out of the sky - they were useful for the people developing/using the system. First ask why those number systems evolved the way they did. And before you point to a goofy origin of any arbitrary unit (like "the king's foot" which is just a tired argument), keep in mind that metric units were also arbitrarily created. Even temperature, which seems to "make sense" to be based on freezing and boiling temperature of water at sea level, begs the question "Why water?" and maybe even "Why at sea level?" (I'm not saying that the choice doesn't make sense, just pointing out that it is still arbitrary at the root. Any unit of measure is going to be based on an arbitrary assumption - it just comes with the territory). Also, the units have been tweaked over time based on correcting for errors discovered due to improving technology/methods for measuring them.This in particular baffles me. 1) Metric is based on arbitrary unit to begin with. 2) Universal agreement on unit of measure is useful. 3) sochange the units from time to time(?), which at minimum is a timing arbitrariness. Oh well. (Didn't this happen againjust recently??)Anyway, "resistance to change" is a thing, but "skepticism about change" is also a thing. Rigid adherence to either isn't healthy, so I fall on the skeptic side since there seems to be plenty of rigid dogmatic compliance to the other. Even if the course doesn't change, the discussion is always useful IMO.Moving on...I've been pretty busy so not enough time to work on my shop. But I got this far a couple days ago. At least I can finally sit there and do something in a pinch.Funny that before, my equipment was crowding me such that often I had no space to work and now it looks like I hardly own anything. Oh well. It's a flat spot so should fill up in short order. I'm still looking forward to getting my permanent shelving and organization installed. Those shelves are temporary and just hung so that I could do a little work as well as for helping to visualize what I can do from what I've got to work with.

author: rhb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 09, 2018, 08:52:19 pm
content: Looks really nice. But I think you may find that having the scope that high is a literal pain in the neck.I found that having a scope 12" above the bench work surface was uncomfortable after a few hours.