Electrolux IoT microwaves turning into steam ovens - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2022, 06:10:23 pm
content: https://hackaday.com/2022/03/18/welcome-to-the-future-where-your-microwave-thinks-its-a-steam-oven/How useful is IoT on kitchen appliances anyways? Every use case I can think of (which is not many) is better done with local communications.

author: daqq
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2022, 07:03:31 pm
content: QuoteFixed: How useful is IoT onkitchenappliances anyways?

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2022, 08:42:16 pm
content: Quote from: daqq on March 19, 2022, 07:03:31 pmFixed: How useful is IoTonkitchenappliancesanyways?

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 20, 2022, 12:27:06 am
content: QuoteDoes IoT really only cover cloudy stuff? The principle is surely that the devices are networked (as opposed to being slaved to a single remote control). Whilst most commercial stuff is cloudy (although I have some which will work perfectly well locally, completely cut off from outside access) that started as a way to get going easily and not have the no-skillz end-user asking hot to punch these hole things in the router. Cloud is (to me, at least) just a part of IoT capabilities and not the defining attribute.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 20, 2022, 02:44:10 am
content: As IoT is Internet-connected by definition, it's necessarily connected to a central server to make things workable for the average user. Which leads to "cloud" stuff.If that wasn't so, every device would need to act as some kind of server itself, which would not only make it harder to design, harder to setup for the average joe, and more prone to security issues.Now of course, local networking would be good enough (and even way better for a number of reasons) for home appliances. But then that wouldn't be "IoT". That would just be "home automation" of some kind, something that has been around for now a few decades, and would probably have flourished if the Internet wasn't swallowing every networked device, just because.

author: MrMobodies
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 20, 2022, 10:37:38 am
content: I have this problem right now when quoted for solar inverters.I am going to request to switch the WIFI and "cloud" crap off all of them.One wired, two of them have WIFI/RS485/USB with one WIFI only where you can only see the readings through an "app" to a "cloud" which is a big nono.A company called Engensa tried this bullshit back in 2012 when they didn't want to sell me a Sunny web box which they eventually did that interfaced with the inverter to show me the readings and alerts but they wanted to sell me this crappy solution that would measure the differences between two meter readings to upload to some portal to tell that it is working okay but I remember that service being shut down some years after.I tend to get very upset and angry when installers keep on telling me this:Me: I want it wired up to my switch and does it have a basic built in webserver to show me the status and readings?Installer: "It's "WIRELESS" and "SMART", we'll tell you where to go and what to do, first You have to create account, sign in, download an "app" on your phone, sign in to that... you need the cloud to access it, it's all cloud these days".Assume I *only* a phone Bullsh*tNo! I do not want a stupid app, a mobile, broadband, WIFI, a webhosting/cloud or a series of finite things all depended on working in order to access it's current status on something that is right next to me, it is not smart it is very stupid!" I see all that as an optional extra which comes later if needed.If I have no broadband or the service stops that's going to be useless isn't it?QuoteIt's not a human.QuoteAnother point above... I don't trust having systems like communicate over wifi in a packed residential area.QuoteI found this last night with Solar edge from two reviewers on trustplilot:https://www.trustpilot.com/review/www.solaredge.com?page=1QuoteQuotehttps://www.trustpilot.com/review/www.solaredge.com?page=2QuoteQuoteHow hard can it be to view your readings from your own equipment... sometimes you can see what's on the screen but need more insight with my previous system, type in the IP address in the we browser, username and password and there it works. I never had these problems before with the manufacturer restricting stuff and interfering over my rights and ability to use and access information from the equipment that is brought and paid for.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 20, 2022, 11:49:14 am
content: QuoteKind of. There is The Internet but there are also internets.QuoteI think that's the defining definition, but doesn't require an offsite cloudy server. Things like Home Assistant do this stuff perfectly well, even over The Internet, without being off-prem.QuoteSure, that's the old term. But even your definition of IoT, which means 'must connect to the cloud' isn't, strictly speaking, an internet of things because all those clouds are distinct entities. Kind of super things. Recently they are becoming able to speak to each other, but that ability never existed when IoT was coined so it's not the original definition.When we say 'IoT' are we saying 'The Internet of things' or 'an internet of things'. Subtle difference which is completely missed by most retail consumers, but it does affect how things are designed. Suppose your new client says "And it must do IoT", what are they really asking for?

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 20, 2022, 01:39:27 pm
content: As already mentioned, cloud services can be shut down at any given moment. We've seen this over and over again. And your internet access can also fail, just for a few minutes or even several weeks. If your IoT appliance requires a cloud service to work correctly it will be bricked. And also important to know: the 'S' in 'IoT' stands for security.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 20, 2022, 07:32:58 pm
content: QuoteDo you know, I've never heard that one before!OK, I have, and there are32,700,000matches on Google for it. Can we please give it a rest and find a new cliche to get bored of.

author: MrMobodies
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 20, 2022, 08:58:52 pm
content: Quote from: madires on March 20, 2022, 01:39:27 pm... and they might even decide to try and charge you a subscription for it one day:https://www.which.co.uk/news/2017/12/y-cam-now-charging-for-previously-free-cloud-storage/QuoteI was given one of these that came out of a job.£2.99 a month seems okay for remote recordings but I would have wanted to be able to join onto my own cctv recorder, it does have a built in portal running on port 80 and uses rtsp? I think no different to other IP cameras, I confirmed this on the phone that it is just a normal IP camera but they refuse to give the login details to use with other stuff. It was very low resolution and didn't bother with it but I would never buy something like this but given to me and I had a few "free" years out of it.In other words they lock the customer in.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 20, 2022, 09:53:33 pm
content: QuoteActually, they make any reasonable customer swear never to touch anything from that company again. Or should, but Sonos did worse than that and they still have customers

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2022, 10:42:00 am
content: Common sense outsourced into the cloud? This reminds me of Einstein's quote about human stupidity.

author: MrMobodies
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2022, 11:09:47 pm
content: I am a bit confused how the word or term "CLOUD" has slipped into the terminology have been seeing recently and on the rise too.I remember, clustering to do with banks of CPU's and time sharing or storage and hosting.Now it seems to me that they are using that one word to possibly mean what they want it to mean like with cloud phones or cloud this and that.Do correct me if you think I am wrong.I have got my answers today, ALL of the inverters in the quote, use HOSTED "CLOUD" bullsh*t that one day of course they might start charging me. They will only allow diagnostics, readings and data logging through their "cloud" in other words they have be connected to the broadband to their stuff and their hosting which to me is "load of bullsh*t". They said I can switch off the wifi completely and pull the dongles out.If I go for the contract I am going to ask the contractor to switch off the WIFI and for the wired ones I'm restricting lan access. I'll just use it with the network monitor to see if the inverters are there or not (if they intermittently down power). They will show the details and any faults on the dot matrix screen and they are in sight so that's shouldn't be a problem.I was told they may need to send people out for firmware updates if there is a known fault. I said well if they send people around to do a firmware update and it goes wrong and fails then at least it happened in front of them and they have got to act straight away rather than me not knowing about it for a while behind my back and it's nice to be prepared incase anything happens.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2022, 11:33:03 pm
content: The "cloud" is a term that has be coined with a purpose, and this purpose is to be as vague as possible, as the word itself suggests.It basically qualifies any computing, in the widest sense, that happens non-locally, offloaded to some distant resource on a global network, which is currently the Internet.Usually, the less you know about this distant resource as a user and the more spread out it is, the more it qualifies as "cloud".

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2022, 10:36:50 am
content: 'Cloud' is the euphemism for 'someone else's computer'.Quote from: MrMobodies on March 21, 2022, 11:09:47 pmThat's a brilliant answer!

author: Berni
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2022, 11:50:51 am
content: The problem with IoT popularity are regular Joe users.A lot of fancy IoT functionality could be done completely locally without internet involvement, but this requires the local network to be set up correctly. So to avoid frustrated users it is the easiest to use a server 'in the cloud' and have devices connect to that, then have the phone app connect to that too. This means it always just magically works... as long as there is internet... and they haven't shut down that server.There are some genuine good uses for home automation when done properly on a local network.Tho i really don't see a single useful thing a microwave could do with WiFi

author: dbctronic
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2022, 12:41:51 pm
content: Quote from: Berni on March 22, 2022, 11:50:51 amI'm very leery of ovens of any kind running unsupervised. Internet ofCrapSpyTechThings extends your ability to make them do so. And, in the case of microwave ovens, yeah, for what? To make it warm up a mug of coffee a minute before you get home from shopping? (Pull over, or drive and thumb at the same time!) What if you forgot to put the mug in before you left? Self damage time for the oven?Well, maybe the damthing can at least call you back while you're pulling into your driveway to tell you it needs servicing. Hmmm... I guess every clouddoeshave a silver lining!!

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2022, 12:43:04 pm
content: QuoteBlock it.

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2022, 06:07:54 pm
content: Next one: Epson payments snafu leaves subscribers unable to print (https://www.theregister.com/2022/03/21/epson_payments_issue/)

author: MrMobodies
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2022, 07:08:51 pm
content: Deal: Every month we will send you ink cartridges so you don't want to worry blah blah blah....Requirement: Lock you out of your printer/restrict it if certain conditions aren't met where a company takes control of it.QuoteA deal that does not include the user in the management of their own printer...Very stupid!If the printer was a rental then okay they can take it back.Someone brought an Epson printer that I helped set it up with these ink bottles, £5-10 a bottle and they got so much out of it and it seemed quick. Scanner not too great, only software scan button no network scan folders but it was small thing and suitable for their space and gave them no problems after the 2nd year hearing from them and they print from it a lot every day so that's good.It makes me wonder whether that service above is necessary unless it is a rental where when it goes wrong they send someone around to exchange it with a working one.Reminds me a bit like this:There was a joke I remembering hearing when Boeing merged and brought out McDonnell Douglas but it was McDonnell Douglas who brought Boeing out using Boeing's own money.What I'd expect:If they can't receive payment for whatever reason, simply settle out what's due whether it is money owed to them or they owe you cartridges, cancel the contract and reset/release the printer back in the customers control until the matter can be resolved.If the company insists on keeping the contracts maybe they should allow the customer to print for free until they resolve the issue. Why shouldn't they not be allowed to continue printing for something that is not their fault.Aaaah I was looking and it seems like a rental service for 1/3 of what the printer is worth:https://www.epson.co.uk/readyprintUnlimited, that's interesting especially if you are printing much more than what you pay for one set of cartridges a month or mass printing using many bottles.

author: MrMobodies
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2022, 11:28:27 pm
content: Video:https://odysee.com/@rossmanngroup:a/smart-devices-get-stupider-and:0I couldn't have put this any better in the comments:QuoteIsn't that a really good point?Yes I find it almost like a botnet where all of the ovens (if allowed to join wifi) possibly connect to their "cloud" hosting crap and then they can instruct them and do as they please without any knowledge or permission from the owners.Years ago with my other solar panel setup it was just uploading the monitoring data that I can switch off on a small scale and local interface and diagnostics from a datalogger that benefited me and now it's direct control to appliances in the home (with possible restrictions on it that tells the user b*gger all) which to me is a big no no just like the YeaLink phones I had been offered.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 23, 2022, 08:06:22 pm
content: Infiltrating everyone's life with constant surveillance, whether they want it or not, and whether this is just for commercial or political reasons, is a gigantic force that is getting increasingly hard to oppose.

author: Neutrion
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 23, 2022, 10:12:09 pm
content: What makes me wonder with this BS is, that all the appliances are gettin crappier each year because the engineers have to "optimise" out every single penny. And than the enormous resources put into this shit, while in the same product they still cheap out on every component.If manufacturer would be forced only to declare the design lifetime of the products, the competition to build good quality products would finaly began, we could see resources put into designing long lasting products instead of this nonsense.However, when I think about the idiots buying the Iot microwawe, it makes sense to think about how important a general phylosophy education would be. Just to be able to ansver the question sometimes: "What do I need and why?"

author: AlfBaz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 24, 2022, 12:04:27 am
content: I'll just put this herehttps://www.theverge.com/2021/3/15/22332212/cricut-crafting-machine-design-space-upload-limitEssentially you have to use their cloud based program to send data to the cutter.This was a free service which is now being limited unless you pay a subscription fee.Attempts have been made to circumvent this which requires hacking the hardware but it appears that's going nowhere fast

author: AlfBaz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 24, 2022, 12:07:07 am
content: Oh, and if you google the machine there is a never ending stream of hits from well known retailers flogging this crap with barely a mention of this limitationSo yeah, fuck you too Google

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 24, 2022, 03:30:19 am
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on March 23, 2022, 08:06:22 pmre: "...is a gigantic force that is getting increasingly hard to oppose."A good solar storm may help. When they can't use their microwave oven, can't unlock their front door, can't open their garage door, can't run their dish washer, can't wash their laundry, and can't flush their toilet...Come to think of it, I kinda like to see that happen. It would be good for human kind to learn the problem of depending on something inherently undependable. To be explicit, that inherently undependable thing is: "Depending on big tech to have your interest above their own profit target."

author: MrMobodies
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 24, 2022, 03:50:39 am
content: One day I could see them selling microwaves for "free" but to use it they'd charge a monthly/yearly subscription fee and for every feature.I just found this:https://www.tovala.com/ovenQuoteQuoteVery stupid... groceries don't cook by themselves.That's what all that stuff is for to cook by set instruction.If there is enough encouragement with these things and soon nobody will need to learn how to cook and I wonder about food poisoning when it gets the time wrong.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 24, 2022, 07:13:49 am
content: Quote from: MrMobodies on March 24, 2022, 03:50:39 amYou're not thinking evil enough, also already a good story:https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2020/01/unauthorized-bread-a-near-future-tale-of-refugees-and-sinister-iot-appliances/(originally posted on this forum here:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/right-to-repair-for-non-technical-people/msg3609342/#msg3609342)

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 24, 2022, 09:54:58 am
content: Quote from: AlfBaz on March 24, 2022, 12:04:27 am!!!I have a competitor device and creating a new paper box to hold flat parts (think Hammond box front panels) can take several iterations to get right. I could see something like that cutting me off before I've even got the design working.OTOH, I'd never have got something that required upload to the cloud in order to download to a local machine. Sometimes principles work out OK

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 24, 2022, 10:16:51 am
content: Quote from: Neutrion on March 23, 2022, 10:12:09 pmThe EU is working on exactly that and some other good ideas for long-lasting and repairable products.

author: MrMobodies
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 24, 2022, 01:48:34 pm
content: Quote from: Someone on March 24, 2022, 07:13:49 amQuoteNice story.Since when is a toaster my boss?

author: dbctronic
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 24, 2022, 06:51:25 pm
content: How about 'brickruptcy' to refer to an appliance going dead because the manufacturer went belly up?And of course, unscrupulous ex-manufacturers could sell your customer data to phone scammers, who will then try to sell you a 'maintenance service' for the fool thing. 'Brickscamming'!

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 24, 2022, 06:59:30 pm
content: QuoteDoesn't quite roll off the tongue, but I will make an effort to use it as often as possible

author: Neutrion
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 24, 2022, 07:08:58 pm
content: Quote from: madires on March 24, 2022, 10:16:51 amI read many stuff about EU initiatives to tackle the problem, but never heard about this one, which would be the only effective way. Do you have a link for this? Can be a german one as well.Would be a good news. I will tell it to my fridge and toaster as well.

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 24, 2022, 08:02:00 pm
content: In German:-https://www.elektrogesetz.de/ab-heute-neues-energielabel-und-pflicht-zur-reparierbarkeit/-https://www.bundesregierung.de/resource/blob/975272/429000/8eeb3a85da3cf1e72f15b37d7276f529/de-lebensdauer-download-bericht-data.pdf

author: AlfBaz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 25, 2022, 01:40:08 am
content: Quote from: dunkemhigh on March 24, 2022, 09:54:58 amMe neither. I discovered this nonsense whilst looking for a cutter to buy. Seems a shame too as it looks to be very capable hardware

author: Cyberdragon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2022, 06:55:54 am
content: Quote from: MrMobodies on March 24, 2022, 03:50:39 amThey keep advertising the crap out of this thing over here. They have people in their kitchen saying it's their "secret" and "just scan and cook"No, the next Juicero will not make you a chef...it makes you an idiot that can't even use basic kitchen appliances.

author: MrMobodies
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2022, 02:07:05 pm
content: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Tovala-Gen-Multi-Mode-Programmable-Stainless/dp/B07K85LXBKQuoteCan't find anything about factory resetting it in the manual.Maybe setup a separate station name for it but on the same vlan.I buy a pizza, put it in the time and settings and check half way through. Easy.Here I have to, take a phone out, open the "app" scan the packaging and put it in and I'd check the cooking.It seems like a burden to me. I'd find it easier to do it manually and remember cooking times and sometimes check the food whilst it is cooking.I see there are some basic controls but I'd want all the cooking controls on the oven and not just dependent on a phone/"app"/wifi/cloud hosting and support by manufacturer to do these basic tasks.

author: Cyberdragon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2022, 07:19:24 am
content: The fact that the manual for a toaster oven is 1.7MB is concerning, unless it's in color and multiple languages.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 08, 2022, 06:34:30 am
content: Quote from: daqq on March 19, 2022, 07:03:31 pmSlightly off-topic but I went shopping for a pressure washer this weekend. Kärcher (and I'm sure others) now have "smart" pressure washes that has bluetooth control of pressure etc... WHY?! Why on earth do I want to get my phone out, fiddle with it, just to make water come out of the end of a nozzle?Needless to say, I went with one of the "dumb" models with just a trigger and manually adjustable nozzle.

author: voltsandjolts
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 08, 2022, 07:13:15 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on August 08, 2022, 06:34:30 amIMO this sounds like extreme out of control marketing department. They fit bluetooth to the pressure washer just so you have to install the app on your phone, which then harvests as much data as possible about you and sends it back to the mothership marketing knobs. Probably with some added advertising in the app too.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2022, 08:38:21 am
content: Quoteso when you hit the wrong button in the app it soaks your phone ,forcing you to buy a new phone which is too new for the old pressure washer app you have,forcing you to upgrade said washer

author: Berni
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2022, 08:56:36 am
content: Oh just wait til you see this smart coffee mug:https://ember.com/It has a built in heater and charging base to keep your coffee at the desired temperature. And how do you set the temperature? Using an app over bluetooth.Techmoan reviewed it and the first time he connected the app to it he actually also had to do a firmware update.... let that sink in... firmware update... for your coffee mug.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2022, 09:23:10 am
content: QuoteThat's not as far out as some stuff. I often come across a nearly full mug of tea which my partner has forgotten about and then whines if I tip it down the sink, saying it could be reheated in the microwave. I reckon a mug with ability to remotely start it heating, possibly with periodic notifications to the phone, would be cool for her.

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2022, 10:20:15 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on August 08, 2022, 06:34:30 amBecause your neigbour can then tap his smartphone all day long: on ... off ... on ... off