ALLPCB - no more stencils and no choosing of manufacturers  - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: hcglitte
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2017, 02:16:47 pm
content: Hi,Just had a look at allpcb.com. They no longer have stencils - they argue that this is because they want to ship boards more quickly.But nowadays prototypes requires stencils as well in my opinion. So then you will need to buy a stencil elsewhere - and double the shipping cost.Also, you cannot choose among all the various manufacturers as before...

author: Koen
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2017, 07:28:10 pm
content: They have both great prices and leadtimes for 6-layers but if you can't get a stencil... I hope it isn't so. Their stencils were great too.

author: mrpackethead
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2017, 07:42:38 pm
content: I was talkng wth them last nigth about this.. They have ditched doign other fabs and yup no stencils..This just has rendered them useless to me.. The pricing was great, the service was great, and now its useless.It gets worse. they now wont make you more than 1m2 of PCB in an order.THey dont' get that when you prototype somehign it needs to represent what you are going to manufacture.. SO if i proto a board using them, then I will have to test it again using another fab before i go to manufacure..All these changes they and pcbway.com make are making me want to avoid them now, because i just can't trust them any longer to deliver a service from week to week.

author: rea5245
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2017, 10:13:21 pm
content: So are they still getting prices from all the fabs on the back end and just showing you the cheapest one, or are they only getting prices from one fab?Because if they're still polling all the fabs and choosing the cheapest, maybe they're doing it because they found that everyone always chooses the cheapest anyway.- Bob

author: mrpackethead
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2017, 10:28:10 pm
content: No, they have set up their own fab.. The rep was showing me the pictures....But you can only order less than <1m2 of pcb. So its no use for any production volumes.Whats the point of prototyping on a pcb material and then having to migrate to another service for production? Gah.the so called 'fast-express-service' now becomes useless becuase you now have to go and get another provider to do solder stencils.. Boards without stencils is practically useless.Back to PCBway i think. Heres the math.100 x 100mm 4 layer Gold ENIG board 10 pces is $82.99 including Freight @ Allpcb.Then need to add a stencil from PCBway ( now $80 including freitght.. - the freight kills it )Total cost now $162.99Do the same from PCBWay, and your only at $120.00 ( order the board and the stencils together ), one order, its simple..They seriously shot them selves in the foot on this one. Maybe the old allpcb way model did'tn stack..

author: mrpackethead
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2017, 10:44:01 pm
content: The people making the stencils it seems where this lot.http://www.allpcb.com/pcb_manufacturer/JLC.html( ironic its still on their web site ).

author: mrpackethead
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2017, 11:11:26 pm
content: I have written to the CEO, COO and ask them to resolve this issue.

author: JPortici
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2017, 06:33:03 am
content: so you're telling me they killed the only reason one would ever use them. pity.

author: mrpackethead
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2017, 07:07:03 am
content: They confirmed it to me just a few minutes ago, that they are no longer offering Stencil.As you say, there is no reason to use them any longer.

author: mrpackethead
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2017, 07:14:42 am
content: "We check our order data, indeed only about 5% customer ordered stencil, so we now suspend to service for stencil, but we will try to offer stencil in the near future"Erin says that only 5% of the customers where ordering stencils.. Who are these people who make pcbs without stencils.. Gah.

author: jwm_
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2017, 07:22:55 am
content: I wonder how much a stencil making machine is relative to a PCB making one. Seems like it would be a whole lot less, but sometimes these costs are non intuitive.

author: Towger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2017, 07:35:11 am
content: Quote from: mrpackethead on June 10, 2017, 07:14:42 amTight arsed hobbyists who are also mainly true hole, like me.A better figure is what percentage of production that 5% of customers represent. I bet it is a lot higher than 5%.

author: mrpackethead
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2017, 10:06:49 am
content: Quote from: Towger on June 10, 2017, 07:35:11 amIf its TH, the a stencil doe'snt make much sense of course.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2017, 10:27:13 am
content: Quote from: mrpackethead on June 10, 2017, 07:14:42 amI'm sure the AllPCB folks have done the math on this. In-source production, make higher margins, lose 5% of the customers -- that probably works for them.Maybe they will add stencil capability to their in-house facility at some later point. But with the present decision, and also the limitation of order volumes to less than 1 m², it seems that they are focusing on prototype-only orders, and maybe on hobbyists who are hand-soldering SMD or are still using through-hole. I trust that they did not do this on a whim, but based on careful analysis of their orders and customers.

author: voltsandjolts
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 10, 2017, 10:51:02 am
content: Quote from: mrpackethead on June 10, 2017, 07:14:42 amMe!For prototype boards I prefer to hand solder/hot air.Old dog shuns new tricks.

author: Kean
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 10, 2017, 11:02:07 am
content: And me too - for prototypes I now tend to get a Kapton stencil from OSHstencils where possible.The pile of framed stainless stencils was getting a bit high. I do a lot of small production run designs (often using 0603/0402).

author: mrpackethead
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2017, 11:15:43 am
content: The kapton ones don't compare really whetn you line them up against stainless, and are pretty much useless for stuff thats 0.4mm pitch or below.. Once you've got your frame lined up, you can jut print all day with a stainless one.. Yeah, storage is a bit of a pain, but if they are protos, you just chuck them.. :-)Even for protos' i dont' think i'd ever go back to hand soldering now.. ( though i have the benefit of having two PNP machiens that have our parts stuck on them, so they are done in a few minutes.. )

author: Kean
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 10, 2017, 11:37:29 am
content: Yeah, I'd only use the Kapton stencils for a proto or very small run. They're quite fiddly, but they do save a little time over hand application of paste. I still do hand soldering if in a hurry to get a single simple proto up and running. In fact I hand soldered a batch of 12 PCBs quite recently as it was very urgent and I had insufficient through hole parts (the PCB was a relatively simple Rasperry Pi Hat designed to take either SMT or THT parts, and many optional components I didn't need to populate)I now have a "proper" stencil printer and a low-end bench top PnP so I'll probably change my processes over time. I usually can't justify going to an assembly house for my typical volumes.A lot of the stencils I do have to keep long term (unless they're a total screw up) as some of my clients may get me to build only a small batch of the PCBs each year or so. Low volume, high value products like scientific instruments.

author: mrpackethead
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2017, 11:45:20 am
content: Quote from: Kean on June 10, 2017, 11:37:29 amSame here, my runs are generally <200 pces, and i want to do them on my time frames and scale. Getting our own PNP has been a god-send. Its been transformational.. I spent way less time messign with a soldering Iron! and more time doing productive things.QuoteOne way around this, is to potentially use 'quik-frame' stencils.. That way you can use frameless stencils, you put them in a frame and tension them up.. They are ok.. but not as good as framed...

author: mrpackethead
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2017, 11:47:44 am
content: http://www.sz-jlc.com/home/index.htmlThis is teh cpmpany that was making the great stencils i was previously able to get... Now to do the china supply dance and see if they will supply them.. I see they also make PCBs.. whats the chance that they will do something like allpcb.

author: hcglitte
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2017, 10:28:57 pm
content: Let us know if you manage to order directly from them!

author: mrpackethead
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2017, 01:20:06 am
content: Whats interesting is that J@LC seem to be tied up with the 'Li Chong Componetns Mall'.. Its not an actual mall, but its a Chinese Mouser/DK, and they deal with real parts.. ( not a grey market partt suppler ).. I have ( via my chinese colleges ) bought lots of stuff there.. Paymetns a bit more tricky, easiest way to pay is with an ali-pay account. They also do low volume pcb..They are not strong in English and are set up for the Domestic market.. This is where the chinese shop

author: mrpackethead
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2017, 01:42:53 am
content: Some J@LC Stencil Prices.37x47cm 50?30x40cm 48?42x52cm 70?45x55cm 90?These are laser cut/electropolished...PCB Prices are lower than allpcb as well.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 11, 2017, 01:45:46 am
content: I mentioned in a recent videos about the insanely low price of Elecrow stainless framed stencils:https://www.elecrow.com/laser-cut-pcb-stencil-p-450.htmlHave not actually seen them so can't comment, but crazy to get a frammed stencil for the price. $18 for 30x40cm framed

author: mrpackethead
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2017, 03:37:47 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on June 11, 2017, 01:45:46 ammight seem crazy, but the going price in Shenzhen now for that is about USD$7.50!! ( thats a framed electropolished ).. The days of them being $500 are gone.Price is not a reason not to use them now.

author: tycz
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2017, 05:11:59 am
content: Quote from: mrpackethead on June 11, 2017, 03:37:47 amStencils have been reasonably cheap for a while now. In 2012 I tried to tell my boss that paying the equivalent of 500 USD for the Chinese stencils he was buying was overpriced. He did not believe me when I told him I had a contract manufacturer charge me only 30 USD for basically the same thing (which they outsourced).Also, If you're using production assembly equipment to make prototypes, I'd guess you're easily in a 5% minority of people doing that. Most people I know are happy to use plastic/kapton stencils for prototypes. For me they are easier to use than the stainless steel ones as I don't have special printing tools/jigs at hand. Spending a few minutes fixing the soldering on my 0.4 mm IC with an iron is no bother.

author: mrpackethead
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2017, 08:20:55 am
content: QuoteYou can get a unframed stainless stencil for even less than the framed ones.. your 'jig' then becomes nothing more than some scrap FR4.. ( same height as your pcb ) and some tape. For fine pitched stuff they are infinetly easier to use / and reuse than kapton.

author: mrpackethead
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2017, 10:38:04 pm
content: http://www.jlc-gw.com/index.htmlSee the pricing for stencils below.. These are in RMB.. ( 6.5 RMB = 1 USD ) .. The Google Translation is not good../month is per unit.

author: Koen
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2017, 09:30:49 am
content: AllPCB stencils are available again.

author: mrpackethead
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2017, 09:58:18 am
content: Well that was a quick turn around...

author: Spikee
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2017, 07:06:30 am
content: They probably order them on taoboa and make a 200%+ margin. Smart choice

author: mrpackethead
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2017, 08:24:17 am
content: They get them at J@CL.. The local cost for them is 60RMB, they sell them for USD$16.00... They are makign about $2.50.. Not a 200% margin. But an essential part of the service.

author: Spikee
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 17, 2017, 06:30:50 am
content: 60 rmb for frameless stencil is on the high side. For single order qty's you can get it for about 30. If you have big volume it is probably close to 15-20rmb

author: mrpackethead
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 17, 2017, 09:05:11 am
content: Thats framed. and electropolished. Framed stecils are as you suggest cheaper.

author: mrpackethead
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2017, 05:14:58 am
content: Two stencils came from AllPCB today, these are ones that orginate from J@LC. Interesting they say they can't order electroplished any longer. And on the J@LC web site they say that they dont' offer this service.. ( and it stoped in 2013 ).. Under the microscope they definately look electropolished and are releasing solder ujust fine.At $USD16 for a framed stencil, these are pretty good value.

author: SMdude
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2017, 07:47:27 am
content: How much for shipping?Do they make it from your own paste file?

author: mrpackethead
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2017, 06:54:21 pm
content: shipping is variable because it depends where you are, and i also normally get it combined with my pcbs... By DHL its almost certiany more than the stencil it self.. but if your not in a hurry they have a slow option.Best to check the freight charges on their web site.

author: Spikee
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 31, 2017, 03:37:25 am
content: I ordered a 0.25mm hole, 5 mil trace pcb. To my suprise they like to quote me high but they are not actually equipped to do this kind of spec (even trough you can just select it on their website).I was suggested to change it to 0.3mm hole and 6mil trace.So... I just ordered at HQPCB directly for about 75% of the price that Allpcb quoted.

author: Erin.KOU
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: July 31, 2017, 08:36:32 am
content: Thanks for your Feedback.For some customer orders, when we do our audit, we look to see if there are any opportunity's to make the manufacturing process simpler.In this case we asked if it was possible to use 0.3mm Vias and 6mil track. We can make .25mm and 5mil track, but it is more expensive and more complex, and we wanted to provide this feedback to you.Please accept our apology for any inconvience this has caused.We are constantly updating both our service and fabrication capability. We have very recently taken delivery of a new NC drill machine from Taiwan, it arrived yesterday.The engineers are installing, configuring and calibrating it this week.As for price, different companies have different prices. Some times our price may be higher, but mostly our price is better. All of our services include quick manufacture for expidited service, this often is an expensive add on with other PCB fabricators. I hope that this helps you understandBest regards,Erin

author: Yansi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 31, 2017, 06:20:21 pm
content: I never ordered any stencils for any PCBs. I alway soldered anything needed by hand, down to 0.4mm pitch QFPs and 402/603 SMDs. Pain in the ass, might be, but for my one-off quantity prototypes? Not much of a deal. Can live without stencils for sure.