Forum Moderation - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2025, 09:11:14 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on February 02, 2025, 11:13:46 amI think that's not the only moderation issue you need to consider here.I don't spend a lot of time on the forum these days, firstly after the whole TEA bust up, secondly because I have better things to do with my time and thirdly because it's turned into a cesspit of fucking morons. But every time I stick my head back in it has got worse. Much much worse. I regularly get asked by friends and colleages where to go. I can't recommend anyone coming here. In fact I tell them to run the other way and find something else to do because the signal to noise ratio on here is so bad it's just not worth it.Compared to 5 years ago we have now is endless tolerated troll threads and sick and disgusting behaviour by a lot of your forum members.If you don't fix it, everyone leaves and you're left footing the bill with a corpus of assholes in an echo chamber.When I say assholes, this is interchangeable with fascists in this particular thread.I see "Be excellent to each other" as the tagline of the forum. I do not see people behaving that way.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 02, 2025, 09:44:15 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on February 02, 2025, 09:11:14 pmSorry you see it that way, I think the forum is just as awesome as it's always been.Reports have not increased at all, and moderation is based mostly upon reports from users. Like when nobody reported the whole TEA thing to me directly,nobody, how was I supposed to know about it?And when those involved in the TEA refused to take me up on the offer to allow them to have their own space with there own moderation, crickets, honestly, what am I supposed to do?Moderation is not as easy as you make out. It's a VERY fine line. And remember that the whole TEA thing started because of what was perceived to beover moderation.So be careful what you wish for.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2025, 10:02:13 pm
content: I don't really see an issue with the troll threads. Engage, if you want. Don't, if you want. It's not as if they are a significant proportion of discussion on the forum.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2025, 10:05:41 pm
content: I think the issue is that the 'troll threads' get quite extreme and you end up with two sides having very bad feelings about each other. That upsets other, technical, threads because it then becomes two hardline opponents looking to diss the other rather than a couple of techies shooting the breeze.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2025, 10:11:40 pm
content: Which are the Troll threads?I assume, one of them, is the 'Thunderfoot' thread, which seems to have initiated this thread (from the first two posters).

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 02, 2025, 10:12:55 pm
content: Quote from: PlainName on February 02, 2025, 10:05:41 pmThe alternative is micro-moderating the forum. And I've seen forums absolutely killed by micro-moderation.You should see some of the petty nothing-burger reports we get.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2025, 10:20:40 pm
content: Obviously got to be a sweet spot between the two extremes, so the alternative to one isn't necessarily 100% the other.Generally seems to work OK on here within the error margin, has to be said

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 02, 2025, 10:29:51 pm
content: Quote from: PlainName on February 02, 2025, 10:20:40 pmI think so too. But there will always be people like the OP who don't see it that way. They either want perfect moderation to their taste, or zero moderation.I'm not criticising that, wanting that is fine, I can see the merits in both extremes, but the problem is what works in practice in the long run.Personally, I'm more of a free speech absolutist, but I know what destroys forums and what works in practice. And I've seen countless times over-moderation destroy forum, and I've seen under or zero moderation destroy forums.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 02, 2025, 10:31:55 pm
content: Quote from: MK14 on February 02, 2025, 10:11:40 pmI think there are very few deliberate "troll threads", and I wouldn't consider the TF thread one of them. I just see that as the OP being frustrated with a Youtuber he followed going down a path he didn't like, so he wanted to get it off his chest.But of course some topics have enough fuel to turn into a dumpster fire.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2025, 10:35:22 pm
content: I can see we still haven't learned a thing.The TEA issue was utterly inconsistent moderation. As is the Thunderf00t thread.You walk in, fuck stuff around, walk out again. Problem solved in your mind. Community confused and pissed off over selective moderation. No problems dealt with. Community not engaged with.This kills communities. You did it once. I've seen it on other forums. Just pointing it out.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2025, 10:45:02 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on February 02, 2025, 10:31:55 pmThat makes sense. I guess the thunderf00t thread, was in danger of causing disagreements, between parties (users), because of the nature of the subject area. E.g. Elon Musk, use to be relatively a non-political subject area, but has now turned political because of him, essentially partly working/joining/etc political movements/presidents, in the US.I agree, intentional trolling, seems to have reduced by a large amount.EDIT: Removed more controversial section.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2025, 10:47:39 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on February 02, 2025, 10:35:22 pmBut, the moderation team, can't be perfect, or keep EVERYONE, 100% happy, for everything they do.If they did nothing, others could criticize them.If they take action(s), others (not necessarily the same people), could also criticize them.It is like designing a complicated electronics item. You can't always be 100% perfect, in all aspects of a design.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2025, 10:56:29 pm
content: I don't agree with bd that there is asignificantincrease in troll threads.Idothink there is a small decrease in overall quality, e.g. an increase in inane (by my definition, naturally) threads.ButI can't be certain that isn't my perception nor that I have changed. Or worse, society in general. Either way, I have started to use the "ignore" forum mechanisms. I don't like doing that, but it feels necessary.Dave is correct that moderation is exceedingly difficult, and that finding the right balance is thankless, never ending, an impossible to be "correct" in all cases.The supposed issue of moderators swooping in and making a quick judgement is an interesting issue. That has, arguably, been a source of contention in the past and could easily become one in the future. It is, however difficult to see how the moderators could do otherwise, given their limited time to make their judgement. There is, however, one aspect of that which I think should be considered carefully...I have the suspicion that some members have learned/decided to "weaponise" the mod's limited time and attention. The basic technique is to be sufficiently objectionable that other members become intemperate, then report a post to the mods. The mods look at that post and (understandably) don't have the time/effort/inclination to understand the entire thread, so delete that post.I do not have any easy answers as to how to avoid that.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 02, 2025, 11:01:28 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on February 02, 2025, 10:35:22 pmYou use the word "you", as in me. As I have explaiend countless times, I literally had no idea any of the TEA stuff was happening.When I found out how bad it was getting I immediately opened up an entire new section for those concerned and offered for YOU to apoint your own moderator to do things the way YOU wanted, in YOUR own section, but I was still met with silence.The offer is still open BTW, if you want your own forum section where you are the moderator and you can run it the way you see fit, I'm happy to oblidge.Please try and understand that it is literally IMPOSSIBLE to have "consistent moderation" as you want. No two situations are the exact same, and you can't moderate them the same.If a moderator gets a report of post and feels that it's just a storm in a tea cup and will boil over based on the "vibe" of the thread and the players, then the best thing is to do nothing.But if they get a reportfor essentially the exact same thingin a thread that is obviously getting heated, or it's obvious a few players are never going to give up, then that's when we have do do or say something.Some reports require a moderator to go back and read pages and pages of posts of a thread to get an idea of what's happening, and that's just not possible in most cases.This can appear to be "inconsistent moderation", espeically to those involved, but in practice it's got to be done that way otherwise you end up destroyign the forum with under or over moderation.I understand that perhaps you can see this because you feel personally smited by the moderation policy here. In that case I can't offer you anything except continued explaination of how it must work in practice to keep a balanced forum and hope you eventually understand the position we are in.Again, moderation on this forum is mostly based upon reports. There can be hundreds of different topics a day being discussed here, the moderator can't possiblly read and follow them all, so a ton of stuff (most of it) happens on here without knowledge of the moderators.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2025, 11:04:01 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on February 02, 2025, 10:29:51 pmOver moderation is indeed a good way to destroy a forum. Having to "watch one's step" to stay in tune with the gauleiters is not something I will ever doI'm a free-speech absolutist in a society of fundamentally decent people. But that falls downbadlywhen people cease to be fundamentally decent.Obvious example is x/twatter, which has become a cesspit of deliberate lies, evasions, and worse.Society is becoming more tolerant of "alternative facts", conspiracy theories, "don't trust the experts" nonsense, and the like. Unsurprisingly that is (slowly) spreading to this forum.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2025, 11:08:34 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on February 02, 2025, 11:04:01 pmWhat does that actually mean?

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 02, 2025, 11:09:00 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on February 02, 2025, 11:04:01 pmX is what you make of it.Many people don't know how to use it. You can choose to follow and see only the people and posts you want to see.It's like complaing that Youtube has a bunch of garbage channels you don't like, when you can simply choose to subscribe to the channels you like and only see that content if that's what you want.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2025, 11:40:58 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on February 02, 2025, 11:09:00 pmYes, the problem is that most people don't know how to use x/twatter, and do end up seeing and believing a lot of "alternative facts" (i.e. lies), conspiracy theories, etc. The ease of creating crap enables malefactors to promote their garbage, especially malefactors with commercial or state backing. Any good stuff is drowned out by the crap.The problem with yootoob is that it takes excessive time to determine that a video (i.e. >99% of them) is crap and then to ignore it. Consequently I won't watch a yootoob vid unless I knowin advancethat it will be worth some of my remaining life. It is so easy to upload a vid that the good stuff is drowned out by the crap.

author: hans
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2025, 11:59:16 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on February 02, 2025, 09:11:14 pmI agree. But the internet is also the internet. I think many people here, if they are going to push a post button, have concluded for themselves that they add some contribution to a discussion in one form or another. That's not always be taken for granted everywhere IMOObviously, there are many common-sense statements would take things too far (things like discrimination).On the other hand, I know myself as a very sensitive person when spoken to, while at the same time I can also be very blunt and inconsiderate. Also consider some people drawn into tech (a materialistic niche) may have less social skills than say your average psychologist that likes to practice and educate effective and tactful communication.So maybe I can joke that my bluntness is because of the Dutch directness, but I doubt it.. probably also some neurodivergence.Then throw in the different styles of story-telling and writing, language barriers, the difficulty of sarcasm/irony in written text, etc. Certainly lots of opportunities for 'lost in translation'.I'm not surprised there are quite a few nothing-burger reports. I probably also posted a few some time ago when I thought some person was treated unfairly here. But oh well, it is what it is. Seeing Dave's point of view about micro moderation is also fair. I know of a large Dutch IT forum that is very strict on the rules and limits. And that place can be an absolutely toxic place (from moderation POV) with an overly formal vibe.

author: brucehoult
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2025, 01:16:41 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on February 02, 2025, 11:09:00 pmABSOLUTELY 100% correct.X is fabulous, the best resource on the planet, better than it's ever been. You don't have to love Elon Musk to think so -- I follow plenty of people who criticise him constantly, but stick on the site. Some of them have quietly or loudly disappeared to BlueSky or Mastodon or somewhere and then come back when they've found it's not all that.I follow a select 379 people (at present ... but I pretty much remove someone for everyone new I add), read everything they post, and in some cases RT (if they don't overdo that), and read nothing else.I often read "NZ Twitter is a cesspit". I literally have no idea what they're talking about.I also have zero idea with this "TEA" thing is, and I check eevblog forum for new posts and comments probably 10x a day, every day. Has anyone got a pointer?QuoteI believe it!I've modded a Reddit sub for the last five years, which in that time has grown from 2500 to today 23491 members (plus drive-bys). I've not yet taken action based on a user report. I've not yet had more than one user report the same comment. I've almost always already seen whatever is reported before it is reported and decided it was ok -- the kind of people who report stuff also seem to be the kind of people who read the site once a day or less.It's clearly not as busy as here. I can and do read every comment -- there's a special view that shows them all chronologically -- and from time to time delete something or ban someone. TBH it's not very often. But it's usually before the easily-offended see it anyway.If 100 people -- or even 5 -- all reported the same comment that I'd already decided was ok then I might change my mind on it. It's never happened.

author: fourfathom
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2025, 01:19:42 am
content: Quote from: MK14 on February 02, 2025, 10:47:39 pmIt's much more difficult than that. We are dealing with human beings here, and one thing these threads demonstrate is that even extremely intelligent people can still act like dumfux.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2025, 01:36:53 am
content: Quote from: fourfathom on February 03, 2025, 01:19:42 amAlso, at least some, talk about at least a minority of posters here, being at least slightly neuro-diverse/autistic/ADHD etc. Which means, that it is much harder, for them to correctly read other peoples emotions.Further compounded, by the fact, we (usually) can't see or hear, each other, which tends to mean, a lot of the body-language, and possibly other emotional cues, are much, much harder to read and notice.There does seem to be more arguments, in threads (not necessarily in a pleasant or technically helpful way), compared to many years ago.But on the other hand, it can help the technical discussion, follow its course, so not always a bad thing.What amazes me about this forum. Is how relatively few (in ratio, compared to how many responses/pages the thread can end up having), threads we have (relatively speaking, even though, it is a lot, compared to many things). Verses, how many responses, it can receive, if popular.Then when someone asks, something. A huge number of posters, can (often helpfully), pile in with their views and answers, on the problem. Even long after the original question/problem has been resolved.I.e. It is a bit like we have a huge shortage of good/interesting, well described, thread starting questions/problems/challenges, relative to the number of people (users), who mostly just reply (often helpfully), to threads.But (as a human), it could be as much my perception, rather than the reality, of what happens, on the forum. E.g. I am noticing, the popular threads, that get a huge number of responses, on the list of recent posts, on the front page of the forum.Rather than noticing the threads, which get little attention, and gradually fall out of view.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2025, 02:04:31 am
content: Quote from: brucehoult on February 03, 2025, 01:16:41 amHonest question: how is Twitter the “best resource on the planet”?!? I’ve never found it to be of any use at all. It’s always seemed to me that for everything it is used for, something better exists (or at least used to exist). I signed up for Twitter early on to reserve the username, but I’ve never posted to it once (other than tweeting at companies which inexplicably moved their customer service to Twitter-only), and I only follow some people to see their photos because they post there instead of on other platforms.There are so many other things that to me havefarhigher value: Wikipedia. Topical forums like this. Reddit. YouTube. And many more.What am I just not seeing in Twitter?

author: John B
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2025, 02:17:56 am
content: Quote from: tooki on February 03, 2025, 02:04:31 amRapid dissemination of news, in the form of eyewitnesses or direct video evidence. It will always be a trade off between real news being spread before a corporate media entity can put a spin on something, and the risk of false news being spread.There's a lot of rose tinted historical revisionism around twitter. Prior to Musk owning it, there were always abhorrent opinions on there, it's just that the people saying those things were in a socially privileged positions and never faced backlash for it.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2025, 02:23:28 am
content: Quote from: John B on February 03, 2025, 02:17:56 amI'm struggling to see how this has changed. Apart, of course, from the abhorrent positions shifting to the other side of the political spectrum in places.Mind you, since ol' Musk took over I struggle to see anything. It's now an impossibility to actually view anything there without logging in, and as logging in actually offers no other functions I'm interested in, I don't offer myself up as the product.

author: brucehoult
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2025, 02:45:04 am
content: Quote from: tooki on February 03, 2025, 02:04:31 amThis is getting pretty far from the thread topic, but ok, I'll humour you.You'll find plenty of people who'll tell you that Reddit is a cesspit, though I also find it useful.I guess the shortest explanation is "Twitter is for things you didn't know you needed to know". You follow people not topics. If you pick interesting people then from time to time they'll post or RT/quote tweet something "hey this is interesting"The thing that got me on to Twitter after friends trying to persuade me for several years, was a passenger on a ferry on the Hudson river posting a photo of an airliner that had just landed in the water nearby.As you noted, many businesses offer support on X. In many cases a post on X will get a better and faster response than a company's own forums, or email. Just as a couple of examples WCH's CTO is active and responsive on X. Sipeed often conduct polls on X about which future product they should work on next, or which specific options people would like in them. Many other companies show roadmaps or photos or videos of product prototypes on X that you won't find anywhere else.It is generally the case that if you read X you're 24 to 48 hours ahead of MSM media reporting.Recently X has added "Grok", an LLM which is constantly updated from the latest news, including tweets. Here's an up to the minute response from Grok:

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2025, 03:21:17 am
content: Quote from: brucehoult on February 03, 2025, 02:45:04 amWhich is a black mark of galactic proportions against those companies. Requiring someone to have an account with a social media platform and become the product of that platform to receive support or even information about service status is unacceptable.

author: brucehoult
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2025, 03:26:56 am
content: Quote from: Monkeh on February 03, 2025, 03:21:17 amWell ... that's an opinion, albeit an extreme one.An account doesn't cost anything, you're not forced to post photos of your lunch, and you can DM those companies, not only make public posts.How's it different to "being a product" on eevblog forum?

author: Andy Chee
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2025, 04:36:06 am
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on February 02, 2025, 11:08:34 pmIt means they support absolute free-speech, provided participants only engage in civil discourse (i.e. no trolling)

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 03, 2025, 05:36:34 am
content: Quote from: brucehoult on February 03, 2025, 01:16:41 amThunderf00t is one such person, as is Common Sense Skeptic. If you think Thunderf00t doesn't like Musk, watch some of CSS's videos, and he's 100% more vocal on X about Musk than Thunderf00t is.Jeri Ellsworth deleted her X account and moved to Bluesky. My Amp Hour cohost Chris Gammell left X for Mastodon.Adrian's Digital Basement is another one that abaondoned X for BlueSkyThere seems to be a small cohort of prominent engineering people who left X for Mastodon when Twitter was sold, and then another cohort who quit for Bluesky when the orange man was elected.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2025, 05:38:34 am
content: Quote from: brucehoult on February 03, 2025, 03:26:56 amIt costs an email address, even if it's one dedicated to the purpose. It costs me maintaining an account on another site just to do business with a totally unrelated company. It costs said site having access to my entire interaction with that company.Quote from: brucehoult on February 03, 2025, 03:26:56 amThis forum isn't building a profile of what I read, who I follow, how long I stare at any particular post. It's not trying to tell me what I want to read. It certainly isn't taking money from people to push their posts at me or portray them as being trustworthy. And I do not in any way have to have an account here to consume information, only to participate in discussions. The same cannot be said of what Twitter has devolved to.

author: Buriedcode
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2025, 05:38:40 am
content: The longer a thread goes on, the more of those who don't really have strong opinions drop out - either because they feel they have nothing to add, or, have been jumped on by one side, with selective quotes, and driven out.So ultimately after a few pages you just have those who are fully invested in arguing - either side - about whatever the topic has become. These are generally those with the more extreme views, and the time to sit at their PC, with the topic on their browser hitting refresh so they can post another self-satisfactory argument.It just concentrates as these people try to drag the arguments into whatever their pet subject/gripe of the day is until someone lets slip their real views and the thread gets locked.I get it, I like arguing too, and often I don't like when "people on the internet" are wrong. But I've learned its best to just not engage. My opinion is rarely changed, and theirs certainly won't be (especially those who claim "hey, I'm open to debate, and to other views" when they clearly aren't). Life is just easier when I (try to) ignore such topics.As for what admin can do - honestly I have no idea. One mans free speech is another mans crossed line. And you can't just have "free speech" because again.. its easier for extremists to kick out moderates than it is for moderates to kick out extremists, so it inevitably goes south pretty quickly (like twitter lol). I appreciate its a very difficult task, and frankly I'm surprised there isn't more "drama" here - or maybe I've managed to keep my head in the sand for once?

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 03, 2025, 05:39:58 am
content: Quote from: brucehoult on February 03, 2025, 02:45:04 amYoutube is another big example. Literally impossible to get Youtube support anywhere but on X.When a Youtube account gets hacked, the response time from Youtube on X seems directly related to how many retweets the creator gets. Good luck being a Youtuber who just quit X and you need support urgenty.

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2025, 05:48:45 am
content: This thread shows how problematic the polarization in the global culture is.I'm about 99.3% sure that no poster in this thread would knowingly harm any other poster in this thread, yet they communicate as if they were mortal enemies. "If you doX, you are evil", withXbeing on the order of eating cereal instead of muesli in the morning. How much do you believe your personal support or opposition actually affects global politics, state-level actions? No, be realistic. Now, how much global power and effect do you think the other person with a "evil political opinion" has? Is it enough to vilify them? I don't think so.It is very unhealthy to oneself to think in such utterly polarized way. They used to call it "thinking in black and white", a cognitive distortion.Just think of what would have happened in 1983, ifStanislav Petrovhad been as sure about his "enemies" as people today present themselves online.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 03, 2025, 05:50:53 am
content: Quote from: Monkeh on February 03, 2025, 02:23:28 amThe change is that you won't be instantly banned for your opinion, your politics, or simply offending someone. Under the old Twitter, literally anyone who wasn't extreme left was one post away from being banned, up to an including the sitting US president. Or if someone dug through your old posts and found something the powers that be didn't like, banned for those as well.We were all hanging under the Sword of DamoclesIt's still like that on places like Reddit, BlueSky, and Mastodon.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 03, 2025, 05:54:32 am
content: Quote from: Nominal Animal on February 03, 2025, 05:48:45 amI once met a forum member who, shall we say, didn't seem to like me at all, to the point that they kept a public website record of all their posts I had to moderate on the forum.But they noticed me at an event, came up and said hi, and we got on great for the next few hours. No animosity what so ever

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2025, 06:11:32 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on February 03, 2025, 05:50:53 amExcept peoplehavebeen banned for their opinion, politics, and offending people on the New Twitter. And fired, of course. Then there was the banning of the Mastodon account and people mentioning it - but that was just a mistake, you understand. Along with links to other social media platforms. As far as I'm aware, some journalists critical of Musk or his companies remain banned. And speaking of old posts, yes, some of those accounts remain banned because they refuse to remove old posts the new powers that be don't like.Mind you, I'm not exactly actively keeping up with the specifics - Twitter was barely relevant to me when it was viewable.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 03, 2025, 06:19:36 am
content: Quote from: Monkeh on February 03, 2025, 06:11:32 amAnd if you look at the specifics I think you'll find the reasons weren't the same as Twitter 1.0, and practically all of them are back after a temp ban.The new X is a vastly,VASTLYsafer free speech platform than the old Twitter. Heck, Elon even let Alex Jones back on the platform, a man he viscerally hated, the ultimate litmus test.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2025, 06:33:25 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on February 03, 2025, 06:19:36 amBy specifics I mean who remains banned. It's only free until you annoy the dictator.I wonder, just how many people are being banned that you don't notice.. because they're no longer the ones in your following circles?Quote from: EEVblog on February 03, 2025, 06:19:36 amBear in mind, I can no longer see anything happening there. It was closed off and keeping track of drama isn't my thing.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2025, 06:52:24 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on February 03, 2025, 06:19:36 amOk I'm off the rollercoaster now.Dave you've got a fucking brain worm mate.You're part of the problem.

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2025, 07:04:43 am
content: Definitely no increase in problem threads. Quite the opposite I would say. Dave has made some good improvements like rename "General Chat" to "General Technical chat", and clarify rules about unnecessary problem subjects like Covid.Moderation against off-topic is just fine. Crap threads die out pretty quickly either on its own, or get locked.If you find yourself wasting time in those kind of threads (which objectively take 0.001% of bandwidth on this forum), you need to look in the mirror.My guesstimate is that you are just pissed that your own echo chamber is leaking, that others express different view than yours, probably amplified by the fact that deep down you understand that your own ideals did not work in real world after all. Again, if you feel that is a problem, you need to look in the mirror.Either shut your ears from stuff you don't want to hear, which on this forum is easier than most places on the Internets, or start listening to differing views and widen your world-view.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 03, 2025, 07:51:43 am
content: Quote from: bd139 on February 03, 2025, 06:52:24 amWhat problem exactly?Because I support free speech and am against bannings and cancellations for political and social reasons?Because in all my experinece on Twitter/X (including attempted cancellations and baning of my account) it's clearly vastly safer now on X than it was on twitter?I'm genuinely curious what you think this "brain worm" is that I've got and what it's doing to me?

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 03, 2025, 07:56:15 am
content: Quote from: Monkeh on February 03, 2025, 06:33:25 amOk, possible, please name them.Common Sense Skeptic is one such example where he vicerally attacks Elon in almost every post, to the point that I had to unfollow him for a while because he did it so often it was polluting my timeline. He makes popular videos attacking Elon in every possible way, and he's not banned.Barnacules Nerdgasm is another high profile person against Elon, also not banned.

author: John B
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2025, 08:15:07 am
content: On the topic of youtube or other business support, the element of social judgement became a large motivator vs private communication channels.If you were to send an email to youtube support privately, expect to get ignored. However if there is enough public outrage on a certain issue like channel deletions and demonetisations, you stood a better chance of having that addressed. Of course you had to have a cause that was popular enough, but I guess it's a step up.

author: brucehoult
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2025, 08:27:25 am
content: Quote from: bd139 on February 03, 2025, 06:52:24 amThere are many things on which I disagree with Dave, but he is 100% correct on this.QuoteA perfect example of the problem.And one which, I daresay, will go completely unpunished.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 03, 2025, 08:38:49 am
content: Quote from: brucehoult on February 03, 2025, 08:27:25 amIt's not just my opinion, it's a vastly held opinion that X doesn't even come close to Twitter, like not even many orders of magnitude close to the bannings that happened under the older Twitter.I followed a ton of people personally who were banned on the old twitter. In the times of gamergate for example, and the social justice warriors being in charge of Twitter with their "trust and safety council" etc Not to even mention anything to do with covid.Yet every time I hear an example of someone being banned on X now, if you actually look into the details they were temporarily banned for a legit reason (like doxing) and always eventually let back on.I personally closely survivied several attemps to have my twitter banned.It's widely known by everyone now that there is no longer any sword of Damocles hanging over your head. If you don't know this, I don't know what to tell you, you must not be involved in X much at all to not know this.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2025, 08:54:34 am
content: Quote from: brucehoult on February 03, 2025, 02:45:04 amI found the opposite... I used to follow topics, since those would tend to lead to things I didn't know I need to know. Following people tends to lead to repetitive views, and too often forms an echo chamber.QuoteThat was a long time ago, when twatter used to be reasonable. Twatter has changed too much.Quote"MSM media reporting" is a red flag phrase.All LLMs hallucinate, and hallucinated news is extremely dangerous. The BBC had the strength and reach to call out an LLM's repeated hallucinations; not many organisations can do that. And if you think Grok doesn't/won't hallucinate, I have a bridge I can sell you.There's also theveryunpleasant aspect that people/companies/bots pay to have their pronouncements shoved in your face. Madame President and man-boy have shown how channels can be weaponised. So far the mods on this forum have stomped on LLM threads and responses, but I get the unverified feeling that some of the threads might as well have come from LLMs.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2025, 10:03:54 am
content: Quote from: Monkeh on February 03, 2025, 05:38:34 amI think you might be surprised.

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2025, 10:24:52 am
content: Quote from: Nominal Animal on February 03, 2025, 05:48:45 amYou are part of the problem. Ifeverybodyagreed with me, we could get somewhere. But no, you will keep disagreeing.

author: AVGresponding
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2025, 10:44:40 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on February 02, 2025, 10:29:51 pmIf that were true, then why did you delete the post of mansaxel (fortunately preserved for posterity in nested quotes), apparently on the sole word of Siwastaja? You did not engage with mansaxel at all prior to deletion.Siwastaja is the one should be receiving a ban warning for unacceptable comments, afaicQuote from: mansaxel on February 01, 2025, 11:24:12 amQuote from: EEVblog on February 02, 2025, 11:13:46 am

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 03, 2025, 10:49:37 am
content: Quote from: AVGresponding on February 03, 2025, 10:44:40 amhttps://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/forum-moderation/msg5804511/#msg5804511

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 03, 2025, 10:51:38 am
content: Quote from: PlainName on February 03, 2025, 10:03:54 amThe difference is I don't care what data can be extracted from the database.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2025, 11:09:21 am
content: Quote from: bd139 on February 03, 2025, 06:52:24 amWhich problem?

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2025, 11:34:16 am
content: I suppose "the problem" is members leaving due to off topic conflicts with others or with Dave.I could name a few: GK, blueskull, TiN, the whole TEA exodus. Most recently T3sl4co1l seems to have stopped posting after an argument about banning the humanoid robot guy.That being said, if you look at those people and their reasons, it's quite unclear what sort of moderation would have prevented those events. Not even a zero policy on anything remotely off topic, because part of the TEA problem was that they wanted to have off topic, and some of their off topic (I recall firearms) kept triggering other whiners.AFAIK, the TEA guys (including bd139) left to their own forum which is basically their small and insulated echo chamber, so it's easy for them to talk about "effective moderation" or "just getting along with each other". They should try having a few more members and more traffic and then report back how well it went.

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2025, 11:44:16 am
content: Quote from: AVGresponding on February 03, 2025, 10:44:40 amCome on,maybeDave did read the post he deleted. It was so blatantly obviously against forum rules, specifically #5.I have veered off-topic in politics, too, and IIRC I have had a post or two deleted. And it is only right - the rule about no off-topic political discussion is a clear rule. I can accept it. Why can't you?I simply pointed out to Dave that some people write strongly political posts (like those labeling very large groups of people nazis) in order to agitate. This isdefinitionof trolling - expressing a strong opinion on political subject likely to cause uproar, to get replies.Deleting that kind of posts is more effective in fighting against off-topic political discussion, than only removingrepliesto those posts.This is not your political forum. Discuss politics elsewhere.

author: JPortici
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2025, 12:01:12 pm
content: I kind of see what bd's pointing at, albeit not as strongly as he does.in the last few years i've lost interested in posting because many possibly interesting discussions turns early on in the mostly same old debates from mostly the same users so what happens is that i usually check out a thread, think i may contribute, start reading replies, see yet again the same debate, lose interest for a few days, try replying on topic to stir the conversation away from the debate, reply lost in the debate, fuck it, back to lurking.Though i deliberatly stay away from threads such as thunderfoot's, but simply because in the end i don't give a damn about that guyI'm sorry for how things have turned to in this thread, generally i like bd's contributions a lotto his favor, calling twitter - or reddit for that matter - anything other than a cancerous cesspool, is probably due to the fact that you spent a lot of time creating your bubble, and refuse to look at what's outside of it.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2025, 12:11:58 pm
content: Quote from: magic on February 03, 2025, 11:34:16 amWhatever the reason, TiN and T3sl4co1l and GK leaving is avery definite loss to the forum.I haven't spotted any replacements of equivalent quality, and have spotted more and more posters/threads that annoy me.That obedient "anatomically correct companion" <ahem> guy was one of those, and a good example of the 1857 Gresham's Law: "the bad (money) drives out the good".Conclusion: from my PoV therehasbeen a deterioration. Empires rot from within.QuoteThe Other Plaice isn't an echo chamber per se; "a few blokes nattering in the pub" is a better analogy.I can't remember any discussions about "effective moderation" or similar. Certainly growth would bring problems, just as it has here.

author: AVGresponding
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2025, 01:04:56 pm
content: Quote from: magic on February 03, 2025, 11:34:16 amIf you think it's just an echo chamber, that everyone thinks and believes the same things, you haven't spent any time there at all.There's plenty of conflicts and arguments, and we deal with it like adults; by calling each other names, going off to sulk, and ignoring people we don't like.

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2025, 01:18:37 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on February 03, 2025, 12:11:58 pmWhile I agree that especially T3sl4co1l stopping/reducing posting seems like a big loss, it's again different thing to blame the forum for it. Blaming the environment is the easy answer. The more difficult question is, what has happened with T3sl4co1l? He used to be one of my favorite posters as well. But during last few years, I couldn't avoid seeing his posts getting more and more messy, harder to digest than before. His posts never wereeasy, I don't mean that, they sure werechallengingand that's good; answers in engineering are not always simple. But recently I have became a bitworriedof what's going on, with his contributions increasingly more difficult to follow, with unnecessarily rant-y and confrontational elements mixed in more than before. (I can recognize that behavior since I'm prone to it as well in varying degree depending on how stressed out I am, for example.)I'm quite sure there is nothing wrong with my understanding; I can still read Nominal Animal's equally long posts just fine, for example (and he's not the only one writing verbose). But during last year or two I started skipping T3sl4co1l's replies more and more.It is hard to criticize someone whose contributions you deeply like. Criticizing the environment (and making "the nice guy" a victim of it) seems an easier way out. Yet I can't do it - if I forced myself to say that the forum, or atmosphere of the forum, somehow ruined T3sl4co1l or made him stop contributing, I would be lying. Plus, I know from personal experience that self-victimization is counterproductive (and helping others to become "victims" a huge disservice). #1 factor to our behavior comes from inside of us; doing what is in your power to do; dealing with what is around us.

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2025, 01:44:49 pm
content: IMHO, the moderators of this forum do an excellent job. They are right at the sweet spot. I've experienced the BBS era (did run one myself), FTN networks (Fidonet & Co), Usenet (newsgroups) and what we call social media today. Have seen daily flame wars, games of power and many things more from the dark side of humans. I would consider this forum some kind of sanctuary, even with the occasional nutjob or troll.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2025, 01:57:35 pm
content: Quote from: Siwastaja on February 03, 2025, 01:18:37 pmI haven't blamed the forum, of course.Skimming his later postshttps://www.eevblog.com/forum/profile/?area=showposts;u=92330indicates he was becoming wound up by some of the positions espoused here.Example, where he madevery cogent and accuratearguments about "free speech absolutists":https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/hack-a-day-comment-censorship/msg5687017/#msg5687017That he has expressed those arguments in that way makes it look like he has found this forum to be becoming an unwelcoming place. I can understand where he is coming from; apparently others can too.

author: krish2487
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2025, 02:13:19 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on February 03, 2025, 01:57:35 pmFWIW Let me preface by saying that I like many of T3slacoil's posts, and I m rather sorry to see less and less of him here.. on a technical aspect...but.. he made those statementsagainst free speech absolutists under the freedom of expressionthat Dave and other moderators here provided him with isnt it?It is ironic that some of the very argumentshe has expressed against absolute free speech allowed him to make those very statements..and to be more clear, while he advocated for a low entropy to have a meaningful discussion, his post infact achieved the exact opposite isnt it?It takes two to tango.... and his engagement with pcprogrammer and flying off the handle is entirely his choosing to do so..To be clear I m not taking sides with pcprogrammer here.. I m merely pointing out that his(T3slacoil's) responses were infact responsible to a certain degree to make him feel like the forum is an unwelcoming place..

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2025, 02:30:27 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on February 02, 2025, 10:29:51 pmIMHO your current forum rules to stay away from politics and religion works well. The big social media would be much better places if they had similar rules.

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2025, 02:49:23 pm
content: TBH he wouldn't have quit if he had been banned for personal attacks first <insert the thinking guy meme here>.Quote from: T3sl4co1l on October 23, 2024, 03:59:53 pmThis guy looks like a closeted SJW so I guess I can understand his disappointment with how things are turning out, not only on this forum. In fact, long ago I wasted plenty of time trying to convince people like him back then that they will end up like him today, to no avail. And I also quit one forum when it became overrun by SJWs and my tolerance ran out, so again I guess I can see where he is coming from.Quote from: Siwastaja on February 03, 2025, 01:18:37 pmI think he grew frustrated with people not caring much about his posts and kept decreasing his effort. Which is positive feedback in itself, but also he mostly posted in question threads and people (usually beginners) asking those questions typically just wanted specific answers to their problem, not walls of text, so maybe the whole thing was doomed. He probably should have been running a blog or a yoot00b channel or something like that instead.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2025, 02:59:54 pm
content: Quote from: magic on February 03, 2025, 11:34:16 amRight, I don't follow the TEA thread, and the humanoid robot guy was clearly a lunatic, so I just stayed away. I don't like that TiN left he was a very good community member (I was honestly afraid that something might have happened to him). Same goes for T3sl4co1l.If someone bothers you, place him on the ignore list, and stop interacting. It's not that hard. There are 7 Billion people left to interact with, you don't have to react to any of these negative people.But I can also see why they would leave. I've seen several times when forum members (even in this very thread) group up and bully someone, who had different opinion. It even happened to me once or twice. Individually they don't do anything to get themselves banned, but together they act like a hivemind who uses tactics like Strawman, Ad Hominem or out of context quoting and other dishonest discussion techniques. I'm not surprised why this drives people away. I don't have a problem calling them out on this behavior, but this can totally make someone feel like they are not welcomed here. Unfortunately it's not unique to this forum.But moderation is difficult. And it's ironic, people who are asking for more moderation, are usually the ones that should be booted from... practically everywhere. If you can only operate in an echo chamber, then by all means make one for yourself. If their problem is that the EEVBlog is not being converted into their echo chamber, with virtue signaling and banning every different though... I guess they can still go to reddit. Or continue here if they can do it without all the mental breakdowns.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2025, 03:00:24 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on February 03, 2025, 07:56:15 amQuote from: Monkeh on February 03, 2025, 06:33:25 amQuote from: EEVblog on February 03, 2025, 08:38:49 amAnd isn't it interesting how when you're told that's exactly the case, it flies by, as if it's unthinkable that people aren't using Twitter every day.Quote from: PlainName on February 03, 2025, 10:03:54 amI doubt that. I have a pretty good idea of how the database for the forum works (I've run a few, after all..). There's a big difference between the data it uses for its internal functions and the sort of activity large social media platforms get up to. There's a reason you cannot look into Twitter from outside, and it's all about what they want from you.

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2025, 04:02:59 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on February 03, 2025, 02:30:27 pmWhile I agree that rule to forbid politics and religion is great here (because it's an electronics forum), I think we need places where we can discuss politics and religion. It's pretty important for our modern-day Western ideas of democracy, free speech etc.I don't participate in such discussion online at all (except for very infrequent short divertions on this forum, which I realize is against the forum rules, and at leastwon't complainif moderators delete my posts or warn me), but I understand that many people want to do so. It's better to discuss freely in public, than to do it "underground", IMHO.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2025, 04:04:32 pm
content: Quote from: krish2487 on February 03, 2025, 02:13:19 pmAh. A classic example of someone that completely failed to understand the points he was making, and switched to making an irrelevant point.Have you ever come across the concept that just because Xcouldbe done, it doesn't mean Xshouldbe done. Especially if X is against the common good.Presumably you also feel, as a free speech absolutist, that it is acceptable to shout "fire" in a crowded club/theatre, or to knowingly spout lies?

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2025, 04:10:14 pm
content: Quote from: tszaboo on February 03, 2025, 02:59:54 pmThat worked well on usenet, with "ignore subthread" filters. The twits effectively ceased to exist.It barely does anything on this forum (and others): you still see their threads (until you manually ignore them) and still see they have made nonsense posts, and still see all the replies to their posts. All it does is remind you that the twit exists.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2025, 04:20:59 pm
content: Quote from: magic on February 03, 2025, 02:49:23 pmAh, a classic way of shutting down a reasonable discourse. No evidence, of course, but that no longer matters. Alternative facts rulez.QuoteThat's an wild-arsed unsupported assertion that just happens to suit your agenda.Based on his posting history and what he actually wrote (cf what you ignore or don't understand), it is much more likely that he grew tired of people spouting "alternative facts" and acting as if their "might" makes "right".In other words, the attitude and statements of people like you have driven him out. "Bad (money) drives out the good".

author: krish2487
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2025, 04:23:14 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on February 03, 2025, 04:04:32 pmad hominem much...I never said freedom of speech is freedomfromconsequences...As the saying goes... fuck around and find out... butshouldsomeone have the right to shout fire in a crowded theatre... absolutely..From what you are suggesting should one not shout even if there is a fire in a crowded theatre ?? or if one genuinely believes there is a fire ??Should we castigate and persecute such people if they do shout ?What I believe is entirely besides the point. My post was to argue that he himself was responsible to a large extent for how he felt in the forum.I still fail to see what point your post is making here..

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2025, 04:28:49 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on February 03, 2025, 04:04:32 pmThis is an example of you displaying the same sort of toxic behavior that you accuse others of--in this case, misstating someone's position and then skewering that misstatment.Reduction ad absurdumis only a valid tactic if you apply it to the actual statement that the person has made.krish2487did not claim here to be a free speech absolutist, he used the term "the freedom of expression that Dave and other moderators here provided him" and didn't even explicitly advocate that position.As a logical matter, your position is the ridiculous one IMO. If you say "free speech absolutist,provided..." then you're not an absolutist. Absolute with a qualifier is an oxymoron in my view. Perhaps others have a different take but I don't see it being logically supportable. Just face up to the fact that you simply have the same repressive desires that a lot of other people have. And, for the record, I'm not an absolute free speech advocate because it simply doesn't work as a concept.Look in the mirror, the troll might be you. TBH, I've been guilty of that too once in a while.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2025, 04:31:01 pm
content: Quote from: Siwastaja on February 03, 2025, 04:02:59 pmFor sure people need places to discuss those things. But if I'm interpreting Dave's rules properly: the Eevblog forum is not such a place. There are plenty of other online fora where you can debate politics, religion and what not.

author: Zucca
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 03, 2025, 04:36:01 pm
content: Yeah killing the old TEA was a huge mistake, but we should not forget how the immenseTiNwas basically banned because of his signature.This is the by far the biggest moderation mistake done on this forum.TiN was right, and I support his drastic decision to not play anymore here.IMHO.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2025, 04:38:12 pm
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on February 03, 2025, 04:28:49 pmEr.... He has written (myemphasis)Quote from: krish2487 on February 03, 2025, 04:23:14 pmQuoteSee above.QuoteIfI used "their" techniques, then "they" have no right to complain. But often - as in this case - "they" do complain and shout "foul".

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2025, 04:42:02 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on February 03, 2025, 04:31:01 pmI agree.The problem is that over the past few years it has become normal and accepted to tell blatant lies and demonise political opponents. That toxic behaviour is spreading into all aspects of society. This forum is no exception.Putin has won; welcome to the Weimar Republic.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2025, 04:50:57 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on February 03, 2025, 04:38:12 pmAnd once again you have done what you accuse others of--trimming quotes to misrepresent the poster's intent. Rereadkrishna2487'spost and tell me if your snip fairly represents his position. Do you believe that people should be prohibited from shouting "Fire!" in crowded theater if there actually is a fire?

author: krish2487
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2025, 05:16:38 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on February 03, 2025, 04:38:12 pm1. You made your statementbeforeI replied to your post.2. You misrepresented my post by taking it out of context . I clearly gave a situation where it is absolutely okay if someone shouts fire in a theatre.. Now according to you, noone should do that either isnt it ? You have just quoted a small part of the entire sentence and distorted its meaning to suit your argument.3. I fail to see how my being a free speech absolutist or not, in any way dilutes the validity of my statement that Teslacoil was responsible for his actions and consequently was responsible for how he felt in the forum. Please disagree / address that statement instead of attacking my motives / intentions / leanings..Lets leave what I am and what I believe in for another discussion.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2025, 05:52:01 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on February 02, 2025, 10:56:29 pmI have suspected that as well after noticing a pattern with certain members. I've only reported one member over the years that I can think of.If they took a hard stance to temp ban anyone commenting on politics, religion, race, sexual preference. I don't see that ever happening.Quote from: bd139 on February 02, 2025, 09:11:14 pmIt's all blackjack and hookers....

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2025, 06:01:47 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on February 02, 2025, 10:56:29 pmI would not overthink about this. In the end, this is an electronics forum with clear rules about off-topic and personal attacks. Even without context, it can be seen from a post alone if it's off-topic, or attacking others, or otherwise against the rules. It is however true that moderators here are very inconsistent. They don'tfairlydeleteallthe posts that deserve to be deleted.But it's a different problem to what you describe. Follow the logic: there is nothing wrong indeleting the message; the problem is withnot deleting others.Which is exactly what I demonstrated before by pointing my finger to Dave at one of those messages that are bothclearlyagainst the rules,andformulated in a way that is likely togenerate more off-topic responses. In other words, I tried to do theoppositeof the pattern you are afraid of existing: show theoriginof the gaming.I have had my posts deleted (or me being "warned") a few times in a way that I felt very unfair at the time. In my mind, the moderators "should have" looked at the whole context. I felt I'm not thebad guy, but just triggered into writing what I wrote, with others being at fault. In the end, it doesn't matter. My posts were wrong, too, and rightfully edited/deleted/me being warned. I'm very happy as a whole how moderation here works, and the best you can do is to try to Do The Right Thing and stay within rulesyourself; try not to respond to trolls. I know it is difficult.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2025, 06:06:09 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on February 02, 2025, 10:56:29 pmI agree. I have spotted this tactic as well even leading to banning members.

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2025, 06:15:04 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on February 03, 2025, 04:20:59 pmI don't know what you are even about. I'm quoting something posted three months ago and pointing out the unreasonable attitude of somebody ranting angrily about "free speech" and "libertarians" in a thread where people are tired of corporate censorship. Sorry if your rant is so damn serious and important that you can't stand people not taking it seriously, but I guess that just proves my point about SJW...Quote from: tggzzz on February 03, 2025, 04:20:59 pmTo be exact, I meant to refer to the part about his technical posts getting increasingly hard to read over the years, but I ended up quoting a whole bunch more.

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2025, 06:25:36 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on February 03, 2025, 06:06:09 pmThe "treez" case would be a classic example. However, since tggzzz was clearly part of that bully ring (which he of course won't admit), he probably does not mean that one but something else.In the end, the treez guy ended up breaking many forum rules so the ban was deserved, of course, so I'm not blaming the moderators for that. He wasn't strong enough to constrain himself. However the storycouldbe different without the mob who made sure to amplify the negative aspects and dismiss the positives (interestingly,majorityof treez' output was spot-on on-topic - electronics and power electronic design -, much more than many prominent posters who mostly post links to political youtube videos).Treez was banned because the combination of "getting too many reports" and actually breaking the rules. So this becomes again a "others could be banned too" question more than "treez was incorrectly banned", which he wasn't. So yeah, he should have got his act together. Tip of the day: if you feel like you are being manipulated into doing something against the rules, take a deep breath, calm down andfollow the rules to the letter. This is the best revenge you can have against your bullies. It is not easy though.I don't think there has been a single case of a ban where the member would not haveclearly and significantlybroke the rules, though, so I don't blame the moderators. But the stalker-like treez bully mob actions left me with a nasty feeling about some people who contribute very little but were very active in the bully mob, like jonpaul for example.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2025, 06:32:39 pm
content: Quote from: Siwastaja on February 03, 2025, 06:01:47 pmWhile there's validity there, it isn't that simple.It is fundamentally worth understanding how a system, any system, can be gamed, so that such gaming can be spotted and challenged if necessary.It is impossible to delete all the posts that "deserve" to be deleted, and leave the others. There cannot be useful test for the posts that fall into a grey area; too many value judgements are involved and too many people cannot be impartial. Such deletion will obscure/invalidate the subsequent discussion.QuoteIthinkI've had a post silently deleted. That based on a recollection that I've made a post, and not being able to find the whole section of the thread that I think contained it.. "Rewriting history" is something I'm allergic toGenerally the moderation here is good and appropriate. Yes, mistakes have been and will be made; life is imperfect.More importantly, even if moderation was improved (by my definition), that wouldn't solve the problem. Over the past year there have been more and more threads thatshouldn'tbe moderated, but which I feel devalue the overall value of the forum. Hence Ireluctantlyignore 31 members and ~200 threads. I suspect TiN, T3slacoil, and others have a similar feeling. I am pretty certain bd feels that way, and he definitely won't be returning; his future contributions are lost.I'm not sure what, if anything, can be done about that. no idea what proportion of those are merely innocuous uninteresting threads

author: NE666
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2025, 06:57:57 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on February 03, 2025, 04:31:01 pmWhat I don't understand is, if the interpretation given above is correct and that's the MO for the site, then why are some of these threads allowed to exist? I'm not in favour of heavy handed micro-moderation but, to take the case in recent point, to my mind the Thunderf00t thread has absolutely no relevancy or value to the topic of EE, the EE industry or EE education. From the OP's first post, there was no attempt to address any scientific or technical debate or interest. It was a purely ideological, ad hominem statement, and anyone could see how it would simply and immediately lapse into a partisan slanging match. In my world view, it should have been deleted as soon as it was noticed, as being completely off topic and likely to become highly political. There are a million and one other outlets in which to have that particular conversation. YMMV.Similarly, I can't find a good argument for allowing the thread on the subject of how best to electrocute pigs to go on for as long as it did. True, there's at least aspects of biological and physical sciences involved but really? That's an optic that is wanted for a community of electronic engineers, fledging and accomplished?Maybe if the clearly pathological threads were excised at or close to their inception, then the tone of the remaining 99% might just settle down a bit.

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2025, 06:59:42 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on February 03, 2025, 06:32:39 pmPossibly. Or you are just using their names in underlining your own opinions. As I said above, using their names to drive a point about a forum atmosphere ignores by far the most important aspect: the effects of their own personal lives (which we really should not and can not speculate about), and their own personal actions on the forum (or lack thereof).Also: people come and go. It is completely normal to lose interest in something; it just stops being enjoyable. Sometimesit just is, without a fault of anyone. I have just stopped writing on some forums, like APUG (film photography forum) or diyelectriccar. It is well possible that some speculated over there about the reasons why I "left", when the only real reasons are that I lost interest, regardless of what others were saying or not saying.It is also easy toutilizeone's own growing disinterest by making a so-called "ragequit" - when you would be "quitting" anyway. I have done that myself and I don't like myself a lot for that.I would really like to still see the contributions of what T3sl4co1l was back, say, 5 years ago. But I don't want to remember him from the explosive personal "you are a nazi" attacks wrapped in "oh I'm only speaking generally" disclaimers. I hate that kind of social gaming. It's like shouting "I don't actually mean what I'm saying next butTHERE'S A FIRE IN THE THEATER!!!" And I was so surprised and saddened to see this kind of behavior exactly because I remember T3sl4co1l being pretty understanding in the business of human emotions and interactions. He also showed a pretty balanced viewpoint on the treez matter and was one of the few who evenpartiallyagreed with my analysis of that, if I remember correctly: or at least was considering and discussing the idea seriously.But there must be some reasons for his change and eventual disinterest in contributing like he did before, and we can't know what those reasons are.

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2025, 07:02:24 pm
content: Quote from: NE666 on February 03, 2025, 06:57:57 pmItisrelevant to Dave because he does technology videos, most of them tech debunk videos which is also a genre Dave is doing. To me that sounds like an obvious reason to keep Thunderf00t thread unlocked and try to prevent it from drifting off-topic. Even if the opening post is not exemplary in your opinion.Threads that are completely off-topic from the beginning are easier to lock.

author: NE666
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2025, 07:19:45 pm
content: Quote from: Siwastaja on February 03, 2025, 07:02:24 pmI'd be more reconciled with that, if I thought that the thread was at least an attempt at either a critical analysis and/or a valid technical challenge. As-is, it comes across to me as more of a public pillory and I don't leave it with any new knowledge or insight. Tbf, the thread itself really doesn't bother me. I'm simply observing that it appears to have poked a large stick into a larger hornet's nest, and doesn't (again, at least to me) have sufficient intrinsic value to be worth the blowback.And for the record, that's not to say that I'm a supporter of Thunderf00t's channel has become. I used to be a regular viewer but became disenfranchised for the same reasons as many others.

author: m k
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2025, 07:41:39 pm
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on February 03, 2025, 04:50:57 pmNo, but I read it so that both sides are equally legitimate, absolutely.For moderation,it's simple, you need few PID-controllers, one for moderation and one for every moderator.Community being D-part for first and I-part for the rest.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2025, 07:42:45 pm
content: Quote from: Siwastaja on February 03, 2025, 06:59:42 pmIt is more than just underlying my opinion. Skimming T3slacoil's later posts do seem to indicate the reasons he left, which are adjacent to the opinions I've expressed in this thread. TiN I'm less sure about. Bd139 I am very sure about, but don't want to put words into his mouth.The presumption that their personal lives were a significant factor is just a speculation without evidence. Or is there evidence?Without knowledge of their personal lives, it is reasonable to use what they have written.QuoteAgreed.But the statements made by those people don't support that.QuoteThat's one "sin" I've avoided, so far!QuoteWhat he wrote is a sufficient reason, and it is reasonable to rely on that. In the unlikely event that other evidence appears, be prepared to change that assessment.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2025, 07:52:29 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on February 03, 2025, 07:42:45 pmIIRC, TiN left because someone complained about his signature line supporting Ukraine. AFAIK he never brought the topic up in a forum discussion. I was not happy about that whole debacle but it's not my show and not my decision.

author: Grandchuck
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2025, 08:04:47 pm
content: I remember it the same. A real shame as TiN was a great contributor.

author: Zucca
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 03, 2025, 08:21:54 pm
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on February 03, 2025, 07:52:29 pmhttps://www.eevblog.com/forum/supporters-lounge/question-to-gnif-and-dave/msg4370872/#msg4370872QuoteHe always posted about electronic (never politics, 0 nada) with such a high level of details/results... Major loss for everybody.Just for an effing signature.After the above rules were updated to make sure nobody put something wrong in their signature.Just for an effing signature, I am still piss off about it.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2025, 08:54:49 pm
content: Quote from: NE666 on February 03, 2025, 06:57:57 pmAgree and I don't understand it as well outside of using the site to push your own agenda.Quote from: Zucca on February 03, 2025, 08:21:54 pmAgree. There seems to be several technical contributors who have been banned for taking part with a hot topic and taking the wrong side. Rare anything happens to the person/s who start it. The comment about mods being weaponized seems accurate.I agree with BD139's initial statement about the lower signal to noise levels here. I don't see how allowing, and in some cases contributing, to these non-technical discussions helps. To me, when owner/mods partake in a non-technical discussion it just adds to my confusion. Worse, if you take the wrong side you may be banned. Maybe that's a good thing.For now, I'll just stay away from the political, sexual preference, religious, cooking ..... threads and appreciate having a somewhat technical forum available.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2025, 09:21:09 pm
content: Quote from: magic on February 03, 2025, 02:49:23 pmHe's definitely appears to be a progressive lefty, but who cares? I couldn't give a toss if he's a full up member of the Democrat party, has his room plastered with BLM and rainbow flags and wants engineering to be have more PoC and LGBTQ+XYZ or however many letters there are now. That's no reason for him to be unwelcome here.He's not a moderator, so there's no chance he can damage the forum and he doesn't go round pushing it. Most of us who have strong political views occasionally leak them here. Heck, I'm guilty enough of that.I still think it's shame he doesn't post here as much has he used to. We can all speculate, but his contribution is still missed by many.

author: mansaxel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2025, 09:31:44 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on February 03, 2025, 10:49:37 amI have a hard time understanding the motivation, if any, in that offered link. But you're the owner, and I have disturbed the alignment, so I shall be told off. All part of the game. Certainly not free speech and not to be expected either. I accept this.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 03, 2025, 10:25:23 pm
content: Quote from: mansaxel on February 03, 2025, 09:31:44 pmI'm trying to point out (again) that moderation can appear to not be even, that's just a nature of how it must work in practice.In this case the deleted post in question was on the latest page, and people mostly just scroll the latest page, see somethign and then respond.So it makes less sense to go back to previous pages and also delete similar messages in the past, because they just aren't seen as much, and hence don't provide the same level of "fuel" so to speak for people to continue to off-topic stuff.It's a practical trade-off in moderation.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 03, 2025, 10:32:33 pm
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on February 03, 2025, 05:52:01 pmIf we temp banned everyone for a single post that mentioned any of that stuff then the forum would be dead in a week. Temp banning pisses people off and they often leave as result. Be careful what you wish for.I don't understand why many people can't at least understand how hard it is moderate a forum that has endelss different types of people from endless different cultures, with endless different interpretations of languages. It's a VERY FINE LINE. You can't just mechanically apply blanket rules an expect it work

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 03, 2025, 10:37:57 pm
content: Quote from: Zucca on February 03, 2025, 08:21:54 pmTiN left of his own accord, he was not banned or pressured to leave, we simply removed a hot button political message from his signature, something which he ultimately took offence to and left.https://www.eevblog.com/forum/supporters-lounge/question-to-gnif-and-dave/It's simple, we can't have people putting hot button political issus in their signatures.Not only for the obvious reasons, but because, unlike posts, the signature field instantly propagates throughout every message you have ever posted on the forum.If you have thousands of posts then your political message instantly appears on those thousands of posts.If we let one person do this then we haveto let everyone do this under the "moderation fairness" that everyone complains about, and what happens then? The forum will be covered with political messages that people know they can't put in posts.We had to draw the line at that, and it was sorry that Tin decided to leave over it, but he made his own choice. He isn't banned and he's welcome back any time.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2025, 10:39:00 pm
content: Yes moderation is hard and I think this "meme" explains why:

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 03, 2025, 10:44:53 pm
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on February 03, 2025, 08:54:49 pmThunderf00t is a huge and long time Youtubers with many overlaps to our community in terms of debunking and science. There is massive overlap in our audiences, and we have dedicated section on this forum for discussion of other video creators.But I just noticed that the Thunderf00t thread is in the General Chat section, so I'll move it to the more appropriate Other Blogs section where it should have been.Again, I don't understand people complaining about a subject that they have no interest in, just ignore the thread. Other people want to discuss another creators, and it's on-topic for this forum and the interests of many people on this forum.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2025, 11:14:51 pm
content: I've enjoyed and learnt a lot from this thread, so far, thanks everyone, for sharing your views. It has opened my eyes, to all the differing viewpoints and opinions, (a subset of) everyone on the forums perceptions.A bit like a recent plane crash, where various videos, at different times and positions, get shown. Perhaps some doorbell footage, of an initial huge explosion, another (possibly a mobile/cell phone), with lots of firetrucks and emergency workers, attending to a major incident, and potentially others, as well.It saddens me, that what happens, on this forum, sometimes, causes upset, and people end up taking a break, or even not returning.All these (my opinion) differing opinions, sheds further light on how hard moderating a forum is, in practice.I guess, you can't keep everyone happy, all of the time.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2025, 11:21:15 pm
content: Quote from: PlainName on February 02, 2025, 10:05:41 pmI pointed out years ago that it is perilously easy to make deadly enemies on the Internet.Just try mentioning "electron flow" over on "AAC"----it brings the proponents of "Conventional current flow" out "loaded for bear".Even on this Forum, a mild comment about someone's phrasing in an answer to a beginner was enough to start the "rage-foam" flowing from one of the "usual suspects".Mostly, I just avoid those who I have had "run-ins" with, but over time, I have noticed that they seem to have become the majority, so I "second think" my postings a lot more.With that along with the "TEA" blowout, I don't spend that much time here, anymore.

author: wilfred
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2025, 12:07:48 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on February 03, 2025, 10:44:53 pmThat would be the "General Technical Chat" section that you presumably had a reason to change and specifyTechnicalsome years ago. I am testing my memory here but maybe 8 years ago these sort of off-topic pseudo political threads would have 50% of posts made by the top 10 posters in the thread. You yourself could easily be 10%+ in some, perhaps most, cases. Based on numbers I collected back then I am going to dispute the claim thatmanypeople on this forum are all that interested. I think a tiny fraction of members are interested.You clearly tolerate them and participating in them sends a very clear message to others.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 04, 2025, 12:20:37 am
content: Quote from: wilfred on February 04, 2025, 12:07:48 amThe Thunderf00t thread is completely on topic for this forum.He's a fellow Youtube creator and debunker, and I guess I'd call him a friend as well, so of course I'm going to contribute as I have an interest in it.If you don't like it, don't read threads like that, it's in the title, not hard to avoid.As for other topics, they usually start out innocently enough, but thread (even completely on-topic technical ones) often drift into other areas, that's just going to happen on a community forum like this where people like to hang around and essentially chat.This forum has been operating just fine for almost 15 years based on the moderation we do here. Sometimes threads drift a bit off-topic and that's generally ok, and the thread usually drift back on-topic.This forum is what YOU make it. If you see a thread drifting off-topic in way you don't like, YOU have the power to pull it back on topic by, surprise, posting on-topic replies.Maybe start your reply with a gentle hint like "Bringing this thread back onto topic, I think that resistor R18 might be the culprit..."That can provide a subtle hint to others that the drift off-topic wasn't appreciated. It's not just moderators that have the power to influence the direction of a thread.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2025, 12:21:22 am
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on February 03, 2025, 08:54:49 pmMy understanding, is that what often happens, is that one or more 'Report to moderator', reports has been created, for that thread.So, member(s) of the moderation team, have joined the thread. Indicating to people who have reported it, that the moderators are now watching it, and to keep an eye on it, and if necessary intervene, such as by locking the thread, if it goes out of hand.I was planning, to also say (as EEVblog's David has already said in this thread), that thunderf00t, has in the past, done many technical, relevant to this forum, videos. Sometimes similar, to what appears in our Dodgy Technology, sub-forum.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2025, 12:23:46 am
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on February 03, 2025, 05:52:01 pmOn the other hand, bashing hams is OK, ---because?

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 04, 2025, 12:26:02 am
content: Quote from: MK14 on February 04, 2025, 12:21:22 amThere is literally a forum section that has, and I quote:QuoteIn this case the OP posted it in the wrong General Chat section. I have since moved it.

author: Shock
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2025, 12:27:17 am
content: What happened in the Tea thread, did buying get too intense or something?

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2025, 12:35:20 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on February 03, 2025, 06:06:09 pmThis is "standard operating procedure" on "Whirlpool"---post something that is demonstrably incorrect, prompting another poster to describe exactly why it is wrong.For their pains, the second poster has their posting deleted as "off topic".Try to make factual rebuttals to barefaced lies enough time & you will be banned.That forum seems to want to keep discussion to the level of "Nyah, Nyah, Nyah, Nyah!-----Yer mother wears army boots!"To add insult to injury, after permanently banning me from the "politics" section, they had the audacity to say "you can still participate" in the other forum sections!I respectfully declined!

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2025, 12:54:43 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on February 04, 2025, 12:20:37 amYes.That is anecessarypart of the forum's success, but it isn'tsufficient. Wealsoneed high quality posts.Several people have noted that it feels like there are fewer high quality posts, and that there are more inane (my definition, which I'm not sharing!) posts.The world is becoming horribly polarised into black-and-white Them and Us, where Us is favoured and They are beneath contempt and to be nuked. That is, unsurprisingly, spilling over into the forum.How is it spilling over? Often by the use of "keywords" that are used to stir up hatred and division. Even though such keywords areovertlypolitical in nature, they are tolerated and even applied with abandon.That's a crying shame, and - as with society in general - doesn't bode well for the future.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 04, 2025, 12:59:12 am
content: Quote from: Shock on February 04, 2025, 12:27:17 amSomething, something, something, a moderator deleted a post, all hell broke loose, something, something, something, were offered their own section and moderator but they declined, then a handful of regular people left and started their own TEA forum which only lasted a few months, some returned I think, and I think they are now on Discord.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 04, 2025, 01:03:00 am
content: Quote from: tggzzz on February 04, 2025, 12:54:43 amNot in my experience.And as I said, the forum is what YOU make it. Want high quality posts?, thn only post high quality posts, set the example.Sorry, but any "community" based forum is ultimately going to morph into more of a social chat thing, it's just human nature. Trying to "sterilise" this into a 100% technical and every single other post micro-moderated and deleted, is doomed to failure.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2025, 01:05:07 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on February 03, 2025, 10:44:53 pmAs BD139 stated:QuoteThe very first post of that thread you mention is political. It was meant to troll and it was allowed to stay up. As usual, other posters get caught up and are reprimanded. The OP, which is the root cause, gets nothing. Same old song and dance.I doubt I contributed to that thread as I don't come to EEVBLOG to discuss politics. I am interested in how the forum is operated and tend to agree with BD139's OP.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 04, 2025, 01:11:02 am
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on February 04, 2025, 01:05:07 amYou agree with BD139's original post where he called this forum a "cesspit of fucking morons" and "corpus of assholes in an echo chamber. When I say assholes, this is interchangeable with fascists"?By many accounts here it seems, it's BD139 that should have been banned for that, right?The "intention" of the original post on the TF thread was a legitiment topic for discussion though, i.e. has TF's content changed and how he focusses on one thing now. Was it somewhat a "political" post, yeah, but it was still on topic. And ZERO people reported it.Again, if you dodn't like the thread you didn't have to read it.But unfortunately the thread literally devolved into discussion of nazi's before it was reported and delt with.'Oh but it wouldn't have devolved into nazi's if you had deleted it then and there' : I've seen 100% technical threads devolve into nazi discussions, it's so common there is literally a term for it, Godwin's law.I can't go around locking/deleting every single thread with a hint that it might devolve into Godwin's Law.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2025, 01:20:42 am
content: Quote from: vk6zgo on February 04, 2025, 12:23:46 amI can't speak for BD139 but having dealt with enough of them over the past few years, they certainly have earned a special place.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2025, 01:24:30 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on February 04, 2025, 12:59:12 amDrama queens galore

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 04, 2025, 01:30:22 am
content: It should be noted that the TEA group that left have these rules on their forum:QuoteLiterally exactly the same system we operate under here. But apprently the devil is in the minute detail of how it's micro-moderated.Yet somewhow the moderators here are expected to be absolutely perfect and meet every single persons desires of how a forum should be moderated

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2025, 01:31:36 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on February 04, 2025, 01:11:02 amI did quote their statement that I agree with but you chose to ignore that for what ever reason.I don't think I have ever reported any post beyond the recent free energy scammer. If he hadn't been polluting that particular thread, I wouldn't have cared. Don't take my lack of reporting as an indication of my acceptance. Like BD139, I always figured once the noise level got high enough, I would just bow out. Similar to why I have not watched television in a few decades. No drama.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2025, 01:32:38 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on February 04, 2025, 01:24:30 amA big Electronics Forum, with a vibrant, diverse range of users. Can be a very useful place, for appropriate electronics discussions.It would be better, to try and understand and help, other users, if they are very unhappy with any moderation, rather than simply give them a somewhat rude label.Rather than them ending up quitting, en-masse.EDIT: Just because one of more users, have over these 15 years (I think has been said), not fully agreed with the moderation team, doesn't mean there is necessarily anything wrong with the moderation team, who have a (at times), very difficult job to do.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 04, 2025, 01:36:42 am
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on February 04, 2025, 01:31:36 amYou literally said this, which I quoted:"I am interested in how the forum is operated and tend to agree with BD139's OP."That means this entire OP, not one section of it.I was just pointing out that he said stuff in that OP that most people would agree is ban worthy, right?Worse than the original Thunderf00t OP, would you not agree?QuoteIt's not hard to avoid drama on a forum, just stick to threads you create or threads that iterest you, and ignore threads like, I don't know, have the title like"Thunderf00t has lost last of his marbles and remaining bits of credibility"perhaps?Reading that title before you click it's OBVIOUS that thread is going to contain some heated personal opinion. No one was tricked into viewing the thread, or having had the thread suddly change topic on you from some innocent technical subject.As I said, such a thread is obviously on topic for this forum. But if it was "MrBeast has lost last of his marbles and remaining bits of credibility" it would have been deleted or locked right away as being off topic. And that happens quite a bit when people posts off topic youtube videos.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2025, 02:02:21 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on February 04, 2025, 01:36:42 amAgain, I quoted the BD139's text and explained I quoted it. Yet you once again ignore that.There are a few who often start and/or join in off-topic threads about politics, religion, sexual preference... that I would certainly ban if that's all they bring to the table. But again, your forum to do with as you like. This includes banning those you see fit.If you are asking if I would ban BD139 for calling out this problem in a colorful manor, then the answer is no. I would think that would have been clear when I stated I agreed with them. So maybe a twofer? Your call.Sure, I can and do ignore most of the threads. That's not a problem. I'm just surprised by the amount of non-technical traffic allowed and seemingly promoted.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2025, 02:16:52 am
content: If anyone is not familiar with what had happened, with the TEA thread, as I didn't know as much as I'd like to. Here is what appears to be a 21 page discussion about it:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/discussing-the-usage-of-the-tea-thread/EDIT: A somewhat quick glance at it. Seems to show that there was disagreement between members, as to who wanted some off-topic posts, in it, or not, and concerns over its moderation.I think forum rules were being broken, by things (off-topic) such as quick fire-arms discussions, IIRC.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 04, 2025, 02:24:50 am
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on February 04, 2025, 02:02:21 amNothing here is not "promoted" (apart from pinned threads). Threads live or die (very quickly) by participation.The moderators job is to stop the wheels from falling off the billy cart, not to construct a billy cart so safe that it can't possibly hurt or offend anyone.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 04, 2025, 02:27:57 am
content: Quote from: MK14 on February 04, 2025, 02:16:52 amHow ironic.The literal thing Joeqsmith wants (heavier moderation of off-topic posts) caused the exodus of some of the biggest users in the biggest thread on the forum.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2025, 04:48:01 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on February 04, 2025, 02:24:50 amWhen I mention seemingly promoted, I am referring to off-topic threads that violate your own rules, that you or the mods join in.To be clear, I personally am not offended by comments about politics, religion, sexual preference, what you identify as.... I just don't care. It's not why I am here.Quote from: EEVblog on February 04, 2025, 02:27:57 amIf you are asking what I would want, it would be a level playing field. You own the site and have your appointed members to help control it. That bias will always be present. For now, unlike BD139, I don't consider it enough of a problem and choose to continue to use it. While I appreciate having such a forum available, I don't mind discussing how it it operated. After all, that effects my use of the forum. I've also mentioned many times that if my posting upsets you too much, feel free to pull the plug. No hard feelings on my part.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 04, 2025, 05:02:47 am
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on February 04, 2025, 04:48:01 amNo hard feelings at all, just tryign to explain why we do things. I know not everyone is going to agree.FYI, IIRC DB139 left because of over-moderation ofoff-topic postsin the TEA thread. He was one of the main contributors and I guess felt that it was their own little space where they could wander off into all manor of unrelated off-topic subjects.The problem was that there was so much daily traffic in that one thread that if you went in the check what was going on you'd likely see on-topic post and easily miss all the off-topic stuff that might be several pages behind and then someoen kick started it back onto topic again suddenly. It was more like a chat room than a regular thread.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2025, 09:16:04 am
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on February 04, 2025, 01:20:42 amHe can speak for himselfE.ghttps://www.eevblog.com/forum/rf-microwave/cb-and-ham-radio-techs-love-their-bird-wattmeters/msg5656363/#msg5656363https://www.eevblog.com/forum/rf-microwave/how-alive-is-ham-these-days/msg3078764/#msg3078764... but you are aware of that

author: krish2487
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2025, 09:39:32 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on February 04, 2025, 05:02:47 amWow... I was just going through the other thread...21 pages!!!!and I never realised that this was going on ...Also made me realise and appreciate the tightrope walk that the mods do..damned if you... damned if you dont...and really a thankless job..Kudos to the mods team for handling it professionally...

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2025, 11:19:04 am
content: Quote from: bd139 on February 02, 2025, 09:11:14 pmThat isn't true. The forum has always had threads like that. You appear to have amnesia.https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/brexit-what-it-means-for-small-manufacturers/https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/covid-19-virus/https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/science-must-be-abolished-according-to-uct-students-as-it-is-racist/https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/ee-reverse-engineers-ahmed_s-clock/https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/why-is-hillary-clinton-above-the-law/

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2025, 11:26:10 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on February 04, 2025, 01:11:02 amSounds like someone who is very salty with how the world is politically going, and someone who forgot to take their medication.Mental breakdowns all around. I expect this to only get worse. It's not a moderation problem, really.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2025, 11:47:57 am
content: Quote from: Zero999 on February 04, 2025, 11:19:04 amYou are missing the point.Yes, the forum has always had wingnut and extremist threads - but they used to be sufficiently infrequent and self-contained that they could easily be ignored. That's no longer true; they are more frequent and difficult to ignore. Starting about a year ago I have chosen to do something I find unpleasant: use the ineffective "ignore member" and "ignore thread" mechanism. That's an indication of deteriorata.The frequent use of TLAs, phrases and concepts that are directly derived from political agenda doesn't help. Yes, they are notovertlypolitical, but neither were phrases like "national comrade" and "living room". I've recently been introduced to a concept popularized by an anecdote shared by Michael B. Tager on Twitter in July 2020. Theconceptis beginning to feel apt, something I deeply regret . For the avoidance of doubt, despite the admiration for Musk's actions I don't think that specific noun used is relevant. But the definition following "(Internet slang) A space in which..."really shouldgive pause for thought. For a little background and discussion, seehttps://web.archive.org/web/20221221103518/https://god.dailydot.com/bartender-kicks-out-tweets/

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2025, 01:13:13 pm
content: When I joined there was an active and completely official thread about identity politics in engineering, the usual suspect derailed random threads to praise CCP every few days, and somebody would bring up Trump, migrant crisis or whatever maybe once per week or two.If anything, Dave hid some of those things and generally cracked down on politics in early 2020s and there is less of that talk today and it gets shut down faster. I suppose that something about the drama generating potential of the virus scare and the mostly peaceful military operation, plus growing possibilities of IRL fallout if things get out of hand may have convinced him to tighten the grip. (That's also the time when TiN left - sure it's a bummer, but apparently he failed to get it into his head that Dave may also be unhappy about this forum becoming a battleground and that good times are coming to an end.)Funny that you mention neonazis, because there used to be one regularly posting on this forum for a few months and it apparently bothered precisely no one, until he got banned for generally being an abrasive prick. I bet you have no idea who those people are and what they look like; most of the time "bashing the fash" just means whining about people unwilling to sacrifice everything for your hippieoptimistic vision of the future. I'm sure I'm a fascist by this standard, but it's your problem, not mine.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2025, 02:55:25 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on February 04, 2025, 05:02:47 amI doubt I posted in the TEA thread more than a handful of times, if at all. It never caught my interest. I wouldn't have a problem with them treating it as their own little space to discuss off topic stuff. Because it was a single thread, it was easy to ignore.I'm not sure why BD139 left outside of what they posted here. I would actually be more interested in the root cause of technically contributing members being banned. Searching their history, they often appear to get caught up in one of these off-topic weaponized mod discussions. I suspect they post something that was bad enough for them to be permanently banned, and their post removed. Rare I see anything happen to the people who start these threads.If you create a thread similar TEA where anything goes, no one would be banned from posting their opinion, mods would not intervene unless there was illegal activity, I would support it. Some may get upset over that cesspool of garbage and leave. Others like myself would not have any interest and ignore it. The benefit at least for me, it would be localized. It would be up to you to enforced it's use. A fine line indeed.Again, it's your site, you make the rules, you enforce them, you allow what ever bias you like. I choose to utilize it or not. Simple. Had you not recently been running a pole asking for feedback, I doubt I would have responded here. The pole is ridged and I would think you would get more value from discussing it.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2025, 03:13:49 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on February 04, 2025, 09:16:04 amI am, and their enjoyment of a good floozy.Reminds me of Bender and his floosies, hence the previous Bender reference.https://www.eevblog.com/forum/rf-microwave/nanovna-custom-software/msg5046019/#msg5046019

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2025, 03:16:13 pm
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on February 04, 2025, 02:55:25 pmAgreed about TEA being a single thread, but the spark was provided by some TEA denizens that objected to posts by another TEA denizen. I sat on the fence, being mildly irritated but not caring and by simply skipping over the relevant posts. Certainly the TEA thread is less interesting now.I don't remember technically contributing members being banned per se. There seems to be three aspects of the forum's operation that cause them to choose to leave:moderation being used as a weaponperceived inconsistent moderationstrong dislike of the tenor that is creeping into the forum from outside the forumAnyindividual member is powerless against those, so statements to the effect that "the forum is what YOU make it" are both unhelpful and unrealistic.Observation: it is very difficult for new management to fly in (or over) and change a company's culture and ethos. That's one reason why HP tookextremecare over who they hired, to make sure they would instinctively fit in with the HP Way. Bill and Dave consciously created a winning formula, and actively took steps to preserve and promulgate it.Observation: companies rot from within.QuoteThat's the usenet alt.* hierarchy technique. Helpful, but not a solution. "Ignore subthreads" was still needed, even in groups including high quality frequent contributors such as Win Hill (TAoE) and others.Quote"pole is ridged"? Autokorrupt in action?

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2025, 03:17:54 pm
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on February 04, 2025, 03:13:49 pmFloozies plural in bd's case; he's very open about that, and we offer the appropriate supportNo, I am not going to elucidate!

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2025, 06:41:43 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on February 04, 2025, 03:16:13 pmrigidI didn't/don't follow the TEA thread. I visited groups.io when it was first moved but never checked after it was moved again. I personally would rather ignore a single thread. TEA was never a problem for me because of this.I don't get too concerned with people coming and going on their own accord. It's the complete ban of technical contributor's accounts that interests me.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2025, 06:52:53 pm
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on February 04, 2025, 06:41:43 pmI recall that over the years a tiny number of technical contributors have actually been banned. Some got baited into circular discussions (by others weaponizing moderation as tggzzz puts it) and some didn't stop pushing their political views. AFAIK others just left.

author: AVGresponding
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2025, 07:04:59 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on February 04, 2025, 12:59:12 amNot "something something something", but some members weaponised the report button, as has been discussed. The initial moderator response was clumsy, and antagonised a number of members (including myself) rather than defusing the situation.Severalposts were deleted, resulting in further antagonism. By the time the offer of a separate section was made, a number of major contributors had already left, and it was left to the few people such as myself with feet in both camps to try and negotiate, unfortunately to no avail.teanonymous is still going strong; some threads there are invisible to non-members, so activity may appear less than actual. There is pretty much zero requirement for moderation of the rules (which are the same as the groups.io one, which is abandoned in favour of the Forumotion one), because such discussions happen (quite frequently) on the Discord channel instead, and often getveryheated, resulting in people going off to calm down for a few days.An important distinction you have missed is that there isnooff-topic in the TEA thread there, becauseall topicsare allowed (barring the aforementioned contentious ones), including the non-electronics but nevertheless interesting stuff that contributed to the TEApocalypse.

author: jpanhalt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2025, 07:12:04 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on February 04, 2025, 06:52:53 pmPolitics are deadly for technical/non-political blogs. Leaving quietly is the most effective part. Look at Electro-tech online (ETO). It's barely a shadow of its former self. Its owners and some mods don't seem to have learned.You can't avoid politics entirely. Things like supply chain shortages, tariffs, etc. do affect technical activities. It's things like blaming the current President for banning all discussion that is not on Truth Social that cross the line. Keep names and policies out of it, and focus on solutions to the problem. Rather than bashing someone for shortages, describe what you have done to deal with them.

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2025, 07:20:09 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on February 04, 2025, 12:20:37 amThis, this and f***ing this. One of my pet peeves here are people who start complaining when technical threads "drift off-topic" even when they really do not, just that they fail to realize this isn't Stack Exchange (Q&A site). Then they only add noise by complaints in an attempt to silence others. After that, either they succeed and thread just dies (never gets back to their desired "original" flow), or they just get ignored and the discussion goes on (that's better).Threads drifting here and there while still touching the original subject is exactly the strength of this forum. They only driftbecause everything has been said already. If not - then instead of complaining, add what is missing - and that will again act as trigger for others to reply to your post and thus you can direct the flow of the entire discussion! This is the beauty of humans socializing.Unnecessary complaining and "OP is not interested about this" type of replies (how do you know that!? and even if you do, why does it matter? this is a community, OP is not a dictator of the thread) just ruin the mood and make everyone write in a more defensive style.

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2025, 07:46:14 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on February 04, 2025, 12:54:43 amAnd many others have not noted it. For example, to me the quality of posts seems as high as ever before. Possibly even higher!Specifically, these "several people" who complain about quality, like bd139, themselves do not produce high-quality content at all. I don't understand why bd139 is some kind of cult character to some, I probably missed some subforum completely, maybe some social bubble, but going through his recent posts the only longer posts are political rants and personal attacks; technical content is simple one-liners. Before the recent posts, I remember him from earlier complaining and an earlier ragequit, then comeback (hopefully I'm not mixing him up with someone else, if so, apologies!)At the same time, we are seeing great technical discussion with a lot of insight from people like Nominal Animal, SiliconWizard, brucehoult andmany manyothers and that has not gone anywhere. And people like peter-h are great "discussion starters" or "drivers"; they ask the right questions in a way which pokes people to share their insight.Discussions involving analog electronics, power electronics etc. have not changed much for worse or better. The same mentally and technically very stable people seem to be discussing them, just like 10 years ago; I don't even need to mention their names. In programming and MCU related stuff, I can see that the Q&A site nature, specifically "how to download IDE and make a led blinker", has changed to much better with wider and deeper programming mindset (for example, Nominal Animal's posts). EMC/grounding related discussions have suffered as T3sl4co1ls contributions slowly deteriorated (IMHO) but thankfully he was not the only one discussing those; and I can see that enough new people have learned something to keep the discussions still going in a similar direction. We don't absolutelyneedT3sl4co1l to tell us anymore that MLCCs lose capacitance under DC bias, ferrite beads saturate, and split ground planes and USB shield magic components are usually colossally bad ideas. I mean, people like wraper, ataradov etc. can tell you all that. Or me. But I do miss the verbosity and going-deep-but-not-too-deep into theoretical math style of T3sl4co1l. Losing that part is a shame.Or think about Someone who is always ready to correct, usually with actual data sources (something most people don't bother doing), misconceptions related to renewable energy, HVAC etc., pointing out where the logical fallacies are without ever resorting to personal attacks.All in all, in my opinion the quality of discussions here is still excellent. It always has been, it still is. Maybe it's 25% better for some, and 25% worse for some other, depending on your personal weigh factors and biases. But any variation during these years is small. I don't buy the claims of having to leave the forum because of supposedlycollapsedquality, that's utter BS. It's an excuse, possibly unconscious, possibly conscious. As I said before, people lose interest, come and go, and that's normal. The phenomena of ragequitting with heavy personal attacks against nearly everyone, and the lighter version of complaining "this isn't as good as it was before, bye", are older than the Internet, and there rarely is much truth in those arguments.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2025, 07:48:30 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on February 04, 2025, 06:52:53 pmThe ones thatpushtheir political views - either overtly or via code words associated with politics - usually won't be a loss.The ones that arecancelledas a consequence of weaponised moderation might deserve sympathy, although they are arguably partially responsible for their own downfall.The ones thatchosenot to contribute are the saddest cases.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2025, 07:54:15 pm
content: Quote from: AVGresponding on February 04, 2025, 07:04:59 pmBeing a small community "of blokes in a pub/restaurant", there has been no need for moderation - but that wouldn't scale. Just as companies have to change significantly above, say, 10 and 150 employees, so do other social groups.I must get back to the discord group; it sounds ... entertaining. Maybe having a clear partition is beneficial.

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2025, 07:58:33 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on February 04, 2025, 07:48:30 pmI have felt that way a few times. What bullshit from my side, really. I would go back and chill a bit instead. If I had a time machine with extra feature of modifying behavior of others, I would do nothing. Especially I would not go back to want any sympathy.Maybe therewassome weaponized moderation going on. Maybe I was being "cancelled". Like, I wasn't totally hallucinating. But I was still overthinking and overreacting to it, wasting my mental resources for no reason. It's not like the whole world turned against me. Maybe just a few individuals. And those would forget the whole thing after a day. They were and are not interested about me.I think in worst case(s) something like this bothered me for a week or two, and I posted less / not at all during that time.QuoteMost definitely. I'm happy I have been able to bounce back. My fault. Very simple corrective action: get over it, forgive yourself and others, and start posting decent contributions again.EDIT: I'm specifically not talking about the TEA thread; I never really read it. Maybe there was some heavier-duty weaponized moderation going on there, I don't know.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2025, 08:12:25 pm
content: Quote from: Siwastaja on February 04, 2025, 07:46:14 pmBD has produced useful content that has been appreciated by many members. For obvious reasons he hasn't contributed much recently.BD did previously decide this place was too low quality for him, but it looks like he returned to see if it has improved. Clearly he was "disappointed". To me that's another example of the general principal that "going back to something that you left is almost always a bad idea; you rediscover why you left it in the first place".The idea that BD is a "cult figure" islaughableIf you had met BD, as some of us have, you would know he dislikes cults and fanbois. Hell, you don't even have to have met him, you just have to have read what he has posted; he has said as much earlier today!BD's prominence in this thread is only because he is the OP, and because he has very forcibly made points that strike some chords with other members.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2025, 09:57:22 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on February 04, 2025, 08:12:25 pmHe certainly holds the distinction of having created the most posts per day here, whatever that's worth.Somehow I can't see him holding his breath for long...

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2025, 10:23:10 pm
content: Quote from: ebastler on February 04, 2025, 09:57:22 pmAbout the first he has written "Fuckers have found me out. Shit!Goes to hide the kool-aid bottles".About the second he has written "I've made it impossible for me to recover my account again now"You can supply your own interpretation

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2025, 10:31:30 pm
content: Quote from: Siwastaja on February 04, 2025, 07:46:14 pmIf you're jealous of their status, I suggest setting your goal a little higher. Nothing against BD139. I enjoy their colorful comments. Cult leader, maybe Dave. After all, it is his site we are using and he certainly has a large following.Quote from: Siwastaja on February 04, 2025, 07:46:14 pmLower signal to noise = loss of interest. In this case, leaving would be a choice. My having to leave would be the result of a permanent ban, or maybe some other outside circumstance.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 05, 2025, 12:12:10 am
content: QuoteUltimately, BD139 and a handful of others left TEA (and the entire forum) because over "over-moderation" of that thread based on users reports. They didn't like posts being moderated in a thread I guess they considered their own little community space.They were offered their own private space with their own appointed moderator, and still they didn't take up the offer though, they went and formed their own TEA forum.Some returned, some didn't.QuoteUsually it's because they refuse to stop doing something when given multiple warning.Sometimes it's because of a personal interaction and attack of a moderator. You won't see any of that stuff.I've had threats against me and my family. The forum has been attacked with scripts, had CP post on it, had the server shut down for false claims, etc. Some people just get really nasty when you try and tell them please don't continue to do something.QuoteWhy should the OP get pubished for starting a thread that then turns sour because of other users? "Incitement"? "Trolling"? The forum would die of over-moderation in short order.Remember how BM139 and other top contributors left because of over-moderation?QuoteYou are in the minority. We have had polls on doing this multiple times over the years and the comunity response is always a majority, don't allow it.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 05, 2025, 12:23:47 am
content: Quote from: tggzzz on February 04, 2025, 07:54:15 pmI was the top poster in a small Australian canyoning group back when it was on Yahoo Groups. Completely unmoderated, no problem because it was only maybe 50-100 active people.Then someone started a Facebook group under the same name when Yahoo groups was dying and it became huge, over 8k members.Then the moderation and the bannings started, and several other groups spun up by people who were banned making it more "open". But even they eventually started to ban people too.Even I as a founding member of the community was banned when I posted something innocent and dared question why it was deleted (because I hadn't posted in a few years and didn't know there was a rule not to question a moderator. That actually resulted in the head founder of the Facebook group (and a friend of mine no less) stepping down from the role, it just became too toxic.So yes, things get harder at scale.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2025, 12:48:59 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on February 05, 2025, 12:12:10 amSeems like childish behavior. I thought you had turned over evidence at one point to an offenders local police. Maybe for the CP.Quote from: EEVblog on February 05, 2025, 12:12:10 amQuote from: Zero999 on February 04, 2025, 11:19:04 amI'm sure the above thread was highly technical and started with only good intentions.Quote from: EEVblog on February 05, 2025, 12:12:10 amIf my choices were to allow such non-topic threads to exist throughout the forum or in a designated area, I would choose a designated are. If I were asked if I would want such an area, and I thought that meant you were going to promote even more off-topic posts than already occur, then no way I would want it. A poll can be heavily biased by what is asked and how it is presented. Even then I may just not respond to the poll, adding more bias. Getting an accurate poll is difficult.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2025, 12:56:48 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on February 05, 2025, 12:23:47 amBeing on farcebook is never going to help.Doubly so, now that Zukerberg has kissed the hand and stopped fact checking. Basing fact checking on the goodwill unpaid amateur members is guaranteed to lead to shadowy corporate/commercial/state interests overwhelming them. This forum can escape that fate because its denizens are nominally less credulous than "the man on the Clapham omnibus", and being small it is politically "lost in the noise".Yes, politicscan'talways be avoided in a discussion of science and technology - because politicians always have and always will want to assert their dominance over science and technology. The cautionary tales from the past are infamous.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2025, 01:02:23 am
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on February 05, 2025, 12:48:59 amI ignore and avoid "click this button" polls for those reasons.The community response referred to allowed subtle arguments and counterpoints. Hence the conclusion mentioned is valid.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 05, 2025, 02:36:25 am
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on February 05, 2025, 12:48:59 amI did.QuoteI am not going to be drawn into a debate on a 9 year old thread. That OP has been banned BTW.But I will say there are a ton of threads on here that I don't see, in fact, the vast majority of them. And if no one reports them, then moderators are never alerted.Quote from: EEVblog on February 05, 2025, 12:12:10 amYes, but it's been asked multiple times now and it's quite clear, the majority do not want a free-for-all section. That is also my experience my exerience with may forums, it ultimately kills them.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2025, 05:28:25 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on February 05, 2025, 02:36:25 amNo debate. When you posted:Quote from: EEVblog on February 05, 2025, 12:12:10 amI suspect you are stuck on the TF thread and OP refers to the starter of that thread. My comments are much broader. The specific case was just what was recently linked in this thread as an example. IMO, banning the OP in that case would be justified but it sounds like you disagree.Quote from: EEVblog on February 05, 2025, 02:36:25 amWe have a free-for-all, sometimes, depending on your views, section now. It's the entire forum. Again, I tolerate it and it sounds like others don't see it as a problem. So carry on.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 05, 2025, 05:58:32 am
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on February 05, 2025, 05:28:25 amWe don't ban people for just starting an off-topic thread, that would be stupid.Do it enough times after you are told to stop and then yeah, we'll eventually ban you for being a nuisance, but otherwise, nope.If it's a new thread and is completely off topic and political and it's had no or little replies, then it might just get deleted, but usually just it's just locked if it's had a lot of replies since a moderator gets to it.

author: AVGresponding
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2025, 06:14:34 am
content: Quote from: tggzzz on February 04, 2025, 07:54:15 pmIf you'd seen some of the blowups on the Discord, you might change your mind on that...Minor correction to my previous post; the teanonymous forum is on phpBB, not Forumotion, my bad.

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2025, 07:02:10 am
content: Quote from: tggzzz on February 04, 2025, 08:12:25 pmI believe you. I was merely making a point how differently things like this come across depending on what you see. I probably missed the circles where he was a good contributor and a Generally Nice Guy. Thus, I remember him from complaining and personal attacks. Which is very sad I think, but really, he is the only one responsible for what he looks like to the outside world, how he represents himself.Quote from: tggzzz on February 04, 2025, 08:12:25 pmThese reasons are notobviousat all. Obvious means something that is easy to understand and agree over. I truly have no idea why he would have stopped contributing, really.

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2025, 07:14:07 am
content: Quote from: ebastler on February 04, 2025, 09:57:22 pmWhich is interesting, because I don't remember seeingthatmany posts from him. I follow approx half of the subforums. I guess he posted actively only on a small subset of the forum, and specifically made a lot of replies in single threads. Now taking a quick glance at his posting history, the large post count is explained by mostly one-liners.Quote from: joeqsmith on February 04, 2025, 10:31:30 pmSure. Just that I'm not seeing any loss in SNR on this forum which made me wonder why could that be. But I'm also not seeing much of bd139. Put 1+1 together: Maybe the SNR really worsened within the sub-community where bd139 was active. And that's inherent to subsets: the smaller you go, the more variation there is going to be.One of the reasons I like this forum is that so many sections of it are active and lively. That has an averaging effect. One section goes down, another one goes up. But if you are only interested e.g. in ham radio (or any other example like that), then the circles are going to be smaller, and effects of any other single peer larger. In that light, I also understand the comment of weaponized moderation better. On the "Microcontrollers" forum it doesn't matter because there are ~50-100 more or less active participants in those discussions. Make that a club of 10 (who all feel like friends to you) and the effect of one turning against you is much bigger, I guess.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2025, 09:46:19 am
content: Quote from: AVGresponding on February 05, 2025, 06:14:34 amQuite possibly; sounds like usenet

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2025, 09:48:37 am
content: Quote from: tggzzz on February 04, 2025, 11:47:57 amThat's merely your perception. The trouble is, there's no objective data, because it's subjective.I've noticed it goes in phases. Every the newest great thing happens in the news, it leaks over here and we get more off-topic threads: the Afghan war, Brexit, COVID, Donald Trump, Musk etc. I've also noticed they occasionally leaks into your posts, which seems strange, given you don't want to see such content here.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 05, 2025, 09:55:17 am
content: Quote from: Zero999 on February 05, 2025, 09:48:37 amYes, that's what I notice to. Major things happens and people naturally want to talk about it in a place they hang out every day. Like you'd talk about it at the water cooler at work.I think we tried some sort of chat room plugin once where people could chat "live", but it didn't last long, can't remember why.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2025, 09:57:38 am
content: Quote from: Zero999 on February 05, 2025, 09:48:37 amIt is notmerely myperception. Contrariwise it is your "mere perspective" that is in error - and there's no evidence otherwise because that is subjective.QuoteDue to the decreasing SNR I have (regrettably) started using the forum's relatively poor filter mechanisms to increase the visible SNR. The filter mechanisms often fail, unfortunately.And thatisobjective.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 05, 2025, 09:59:28 am
content: Quote from: tggzzz on February 05, 2025, 09:46:19 amEvery few years out of curiosity I go back and check out the usenet forum I used to be a top poster in, and it's still the same half a dozen people bitching at each other 30 years later

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2025, 10:06:08 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on February 05, 2025, 09:55:17 amThat's inevitable, especially where politics and technology intersect.Classic current example is Madam President (according to his scientifically illiterate EO!) removing scientists and departments that have crossed her in the past, and neutering tech bros with the threat of breaking up their companies.It is impossible to discuss such critical technical consequences without discussing the politics. Which should be ignored? The science/technology, or the politics?QuoteDifficult to scale to being worldwide.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2025, 10:45:28 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on February 05, 2025, 09:59:28 amIt has been like that for a while. Arguably it started with eternal september, another example of what happens with too much uncontrolled growth.Nonetheless, there are still someextremelyhigh quality contributors, and some of the technical discussions used to make this forum look like a kindergarten.The poster child for that is Win Hill, together with several of the people he mentions in TAoE3. Win Hill even posted a link on s.e.d. to the PDF copy of TAoE3. It is still there

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2025, 11:29:09 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on February 05, 2025, 12:12:10 amInternet and people are weird that way. Just to add another example to show what crap you may have to deal with as a maintainer / owner of a website: in the early 2000's I was involved in a website to lookup phone numbers for companies. The basic registration was free without any obligations and if people didn't like the registration, we removed it. Just like the good old yellow pages (for the youngsters reading along:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yellow_pages). Some people just got furious that we dared to list their company. Including one who actually send us death threads. You provide something to them for free and they want to kill you for it.

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2025, 11:58:01 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on February 05, 2025, 11:29:09 amSounds innocent, but there might have been some side you did not hear. For example here such services were trendy also in the early 2000's, and one of them was sending fake invoices (made to look like to be payments for something already agreed upon) to companies in large scales and surprisingly many companies accidentally paid. Police refused to investigate saying this is all legal and OK, until a few years later the guy ended up murdering and dismembering one of his partners in crime.Many others did not go as far to send faked invoices, but were very aggressive in their marketing otherwise. It was typical to see your company appear in the index and then get called back in a threating tone that now you need to pay or else we will remove you from our super popular index.So I fully understand the reaction of some people against businesses like that - even if yours was ran responsibly.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2025, 12:10:17 pm
content: I get that but we where in this business (and left) long before those schemes caught on.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2025, 02:59:14 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on February 05, 2025, 05:58:32 amIt is good to know everyone gets at least one free pass to create their own off-topic, toxic thread. A few past members tested the waters to see what constitutes enough times and it seems to be very generous.Currently there are 5297 Guests, 270 Users. I typically use guest to see what is going with a quick slide to the bottom of the page to read recent posts. If that is filled with off-topic posts, I may not even notice that one golden nugget and I tend to stay away as I find nothing of interest.

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2025, 04:04:43 pm
content: About SNR:I went through 37 latest posts (attached) and only ONE ("Re: YouTube's new anti-adblocker measures") is political off-topic. Remaining 36 are all on-topic for this forum, and not only that, quite evenly spread across different fields: computing, repair, test equipment, analog/power electronic design. The "Re: How can we compete with China?" has potential of being political off-topic, but the messages I clicked are not - they discuss on-topic questions like sourcing of components.Thus, my conclusion is that the current SNR of the forum is 36/37 = 97.3%. It is impossible that it was significantly better in the past, because it is close to 100% at the moment.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2025, 04:27:39 pm
content: Quote from: Siwastaja on February 05, 2025, 04:04:43 pmI'd concur, I rarely read or respond to a truly off-topic post and if anyone mentions our president I'm gone. Sometimes there are technical but not solely electronic things like aviation or cars, but even the heated discussions typically are about a completely on-topic issue, such as the recent debate over what constitutes an arc-flash.Looking at my own last 20 posts, 11 are purely electronics, 6 are aviation related and 3 are discussion about the EEVBlog forum itself. Two of the non-electronic threads involved were started by EEVBlog so I'm presuming they're permissible topics. I'm just not seeing a problem.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2025, 04:36:34 pm
content: That's not too surprising. Once a toxic thread kicks off, the number of post increase dramatically. These threads seem very popular here.***I'm suggesting that your sample size is insignificant for this site. You would also want to trend the data over the years. A lot of work but may be insightful.Side note, I was running a search today for a past member that was banned. 2011 time frame. Lots of member on member (MOM) attacks. Business as usual.

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2025, 05:15:57 pm
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on February 05, 2025, 04:36:34 pmBut we are supposedly in the middle of one right now. Yet it does not show on total flow of posts.The "dramatic" post count of a toxic bullshit thread is like 100 posts during a course of 2-4 weeks or something like that. Completely negligible in the big picture. It is only a problem if you actually do enter these threads. The solution is simple: refer to the good old "doctor it hurts".You are free to conduct your own study with larger sample size.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2025, 05:25:43 pm
content: Quote from: Siwastaja on February 05, 2025, 04:04:43 pmTraditional point: it always possible to use statistics as a drunkard uses a lamp post: for support rather than illumination. In order to avoid that possibility...Who defined off or on topic? That ad-blocker thread is technical, and of interest to many or most of the forum's members.Why only look at 37 threads? Surely it would be a better representation to look at threads with posts in the past week?It might well be that excessively off-topic posts haven't had many additions recently.

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2025, 05:40:25 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on February 05, 2025, 05:25:43 pmDave defined in forum rules and section names. It's quite easy to do pretty objectively: try it yourself and you will see! (With larger sample size you could encounter replies which contain a technical part on-topic for forum, plus a political remark. That would make classification of the message more difficult. Maybe you could count that as 0.5.)QuoteI was looking at individual posts, not threads. The thread could have been technical, but Zero999's post was political OT.QuoteBy all means, feel free to do that.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2025, 05:49:05 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on February 05, 2025, 05:25:43 pmEveryone here will have their own experience depending on how they choose to interact with the forum. Not counting this post, 12 of my last 20 posts have been answers or questions regarding technical issues with some sort of electronics equipment, device or system. Some people might be 20 for 20 as they avoid all other topics. Perhaps check your own participation type and level and adjust it to be what you think it should be.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2025, 06:04:16 pm
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on February 05, 2025, 02:59:14 pmMaybe check the 'unread posts since last visit' link which actually shows thread rather than posts. So a single toxic thread being posted to every 10 seconds has only one entry, as opposed to every slot in the 'recent posts' list.Edit: picture worth many words, etc. A bonus is the unread posts shows stuff you haven't already seen, whereas the recent posts may be full of posts you have seen.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2025, 06:36:25 pm
content: Quote from: PlainName on February 05, 2025, 06:04:16 pmObviously if logged in, you have a lot more options. The vast majority like myself seem to use guest.I had thought if a separate area were added for toxic threads, maybe this area could be blocked from the most recent posts listing. It sounds like that is off the table. Seems there is no point of focusing on such a topic as BD139 has done. Make your choice to use the site or not and get on with it.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2025, 06:51:05 pm
content: QuoteSure. The only reason I opened an account originally was to preserve my read pointers. After that, it's not a problem to just allow the appropriate cookie to auto-login every visit. I can't remember the last time I had to manually do it, or even click an auto-filled box or anything. Just put eevblog in the address bar and it's done.I appreciate why someone might not want to register, but once you have why not just use that to make life simpler and nicer? If you don't want to that's fine, but it's then a bit off to complain about the lack of stuff that is there for your taking simply because you can't be arsed to use it.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2025, 07:35:40 pm
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on February 05, 2025, 06:36:25 pmBeing able to ignore things you've already assessed is absolutely critical when using the web in general. That's true with most websites, and that's why RSS/ATOM feeds were invented and are so useful.Hence I interact almost exclusively via the "unread replies" (showingnewthings that have interested me in the past) and "unread posts" (showingnewthings that have a (small) chance of being interesting).If a site has neither RSS feeds nor "what's new since you last visited", then I look at the site rarely and infrequently - usually when I'm bored. One example of that is the ACMQueue site, which I might visit a couple of times a month.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2025, 07:36:45 pm
content: But then they make everything about politics. I used to watch TV, play video games or go to forums online. It was all fine enjoyable. Then they turned everything into their loudspeaker to tell me "the message". Suddenly video game characters were telling me their pronouns and Hollywood has its nervous breakdown. And when sales stop they double and triple down on this bullshit. I cannot watch a joghurt ad now, without political bullshit.And then you are surprised that people bring it up, with every topic? We cannot talk about solar panels because some idiot at fox had the contrarian standpoint that they are somehow evil. Also EVs are bad because they will just take the default contrarian position. And the other side is just batshit crazy, who would loose their mind if you ask a technical question about a "male" connector.Common sense, people

author: brucehoult
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2025, 07:48:17 pm
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on February 05, 2025, 06:36:25 pmSomeone with 12000 posts uses "guest"?QuoteJust add any such toxic -- or even merely uninteresting -- threads to your "ignore topics" list and you'll never see it again ... or at least not for a few months until it gets aged off the list.My routine is to click on "Show new replies to your posts." and check those, then click it again to see if anything got added while I was reading/replying. Then click "Show unread posts since last visit." hit the "Select all" checkbox and then selectively unselect maybe 10% of new threads, and then hit "Ignore Topics" and (usually) never see them again.

author: jpanhalt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2025, 10:10:06 pm
content: Quote from: brucehoult on February 05, 2025, 07:48:17 pmMaybe the user's browser doesn't show "Show unread posts since last visit?"

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2025, 11:32:57 pm
content: Quote from: tszaboo on February 05, 2025, 07:36:45 pmAnd you forgot about how the words 'master' and 'slave' have been cancelled as well. Nowadays you see all kinds of crappy substitutes in equipment and manuals leaving the user guessing WTF they are on about.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2025, 12:35:42 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on February 05, 2025, 11:32:57 pmThere are several of these woke inserts into the electronics field, and they push really hard to replace the words.I had a discussion that using colors in schematic is ableism, and I'm a -ist for doing so.BTW, if anyone gives you any bullshit about it, it's: "Microcontroller out Sensor in" and mental note about the karen who was complaining about it.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2025, 12:52:30 pm
content: Quote from: tszaboo on February 06, 2025, 12:35:42 pmI'm not colour blind, but colour blindness is surprisingly common in men (~10%) and much less common in women (<1%). I have no idea about those with strange chromosome combinations, nor trans, nor... (That should flush any such karens out of the woodwork) That prevalence is sufficient to justify an "ableism" tag where someone attempts to justify requiring colours in schematics.Nonetheless colour in schematics is almost always a pain in the eye-brain combination, and should only be usedverysparinglyas a hint. No information should be lost when rendered in black and white.https://www.colour-blindness.com/general/prevalence/

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2025, 01:29:46 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on February 06, 2025, 12:52:30 pmI suppose news should be in black and white for the same reason, then? And should we definitely replace traffic lights with abstract unicolor ones too?No, really. Whatisthe difference?

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2025, 01:38:28 pm
content: Traffic lights aren't really appropriate because the colour isn't the decider. The position of the individual indicator, relative to the others, is always the same - go is at the bottom, stop at the top and ambivalent who the hell knows in the middle. You can lose the middle one and still be able to figure them out instantly in black and white.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2025, 01:45:59 pm
content: Quote from: Nominal Animal on February 06, 2025, 01:29:46 pmAFAIK traffic light colors aren't strict red/orange/green but have other colors mixed in (like green is actually blue-green) to aid color blind.In general colors can help to make schematics and diagrams more clear but care must be taken to make sure color blind people can also use them or at least don't mis out. One of the worst color choices I've seen is the old wire color code used for mains wiring in the Netherlands: red for neutral and green for live. It is wrong on so many levels...

author: NE666
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2025, 01:58:28 pm
content: Quote from: PlainName on February 06, 2025, 01:38:28 pmTry that from a distance, at night.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2025, 01:59:54 pm
content: Quote from: Nominal Animal on February 06, 2025, 01:29:46 pmThe context was schematics, not life, the universe, and everything.Traffic lights is obvious: vertical position.

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2025, 02:15:19 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on February 06, 2025, 01:45:59 pmI do believe blue is used in e.g. Japan.Quote from: nctnico on February 06, 2025, 01:45:59 pmYes, but this is not what tggzzz wrote:"No information should be lost when rendered in black and white."This can sound nit-picking, but is actually very important to me. If that was amended to"Nonecessaryinformation ...", I could easily agree.I've worked with artists, and even done some proper Uni research into visualization and sonification of information, and although I've done some experiments with color in schematics, I do not have the necessary style in schematic drawing to not annoy the hell out of EEs here. Even so, what I found leads me to believe color could be used (perhaps not by me, but by someone better at schematic capture) to make schematics even easier to understand; but still keep the schematic just as specific if converted to black and white only.That is, color can help humanperceptionandunderstanding(and IMO should be used for that!), but should not specify any technical details not otherwise inferrable from the schematic.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2025, 02:23:52 pm
content: Quote from: NE666 on February 06, 2025, 01:58:28 pmDo you have personal experience of colour blindness that you could share?Nonetheless, it is an interesting question. It is difficult to find a picture with all three lights on simultaneously, but this one shows the more important ones, i.e. red and green at dusk.You can usehttps://www.color-blindness.com/coblis-color-blindness-simulator/to see the effects of 8 different forms of colour blindness. In all cases both red and green are clearly illuminated.There is usually non-trivial ambient light (ask any astronomer!) and there must be car head lights. I expect those are sufficient to allow the white surround to be visible, and that is sufficient to determine position.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2025, 02:29:54 pm
content: Quote from: Nominal Animal on February 06, 2025, 02:15:19 pmNow you are being silly, deliberately snipping themajorityof the paragraph to (try to) make a point. I expect better from youUsing your technique, I can twist your post thus:Quote from: Nominal Animal on February 06, 2025, 02:15:19 pm

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2025, 02:36:31 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on February 06, 2025, 01:45:59 pmPlease don't engage in this discussion again. Best to ignore it, and to go back to the orginal topic.But you see, politics...

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2025, 02:53:58 pm
content: Quote from: Nominal Animal on February 06, 2025, 02:15:19 pmBy definition information is lost when rendering a color image in black & white. So this statement is pretty meaningless.You could also argue a schematic should be legible for people without needing reading glasses along the same line. Bottom line is: if you can add features (like color, big text, 'sans serif' fonts, etc) to a schematic / diagram which can help the majority of the people understand the schematic more easely it is a win. Bonus points for choosing the features in a way so people with visual handicaps are still able to profit from it. But I think we are in agreement about that.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2025, 03:12:37 pm
content: I think Nominal is right on this:QuoteThat's not the same as:QuoteHe is talking additional information, not essential. So perhaps an audio attachment so you can hear the designer describe the circuit as you go along. But that's not essential data, and a deaf person would perhaps miss it but it isn't necessary to underestanding the circuit (or shouldn't be!).We saw that colouring power lines as red and ground as green do add quick comprehension to a schematic, but in black and white there is nothing really lost. But, OTOH, colouring every wire a different shade is just confusing (and perhaps is noise the black and white version filters out).As with many things, it is not all the way there to that extreme, or all the way to this extreme, but some middle ground sweetspot that works.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2025, 03:34:37 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on February 06, 2025, 02:53:58 pmIt is possible to losedatawithout losinginformation.The guiding feature with a schematic should be to helpeach and everyreader to understand the design and how it works. There are many aspects to that.

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2025, 05:34:06 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on February 06, 2025, 02:29:54 pmThat is honestly how I parsed it. Perhaps I misunderstood what you meant by a "hint", versus the opposite of my "necessary"?As an example, consider a schematic where positive supplies, negative supplies, ground, high-frequency digital, audio-frequency analog, and almost-DC control signals are all drawn in slightly different shades. (I discovered that using completely different colors is too heavy-handed, except for supplies with reds and blacks; distracting rather than helpful. Consider sufficiently dark pastel colors on white background, or light on dark background.)For components, I don't like bypass capacitors being stuffed separately in some corner. I'd much prefer them to be nearby the pin they're supposed to be even in the schematic, but drawn with less contrast compared to other capacitors in the schematic. (I found that for myself, drawing them e.g. smaller than other capacitors is more distracting than helpful.)Try these and see for yourself. Take one of your own projects, plot/export the schematic as SVG, and open it in Inkscape. Select all, and repeatedly Object > Ungroup (Shift+Ctrl+G) until no more groups left, and you can edit individual traces and objects. When you select some tracks, use Path > Combine (Ctrl+K) to combine them into a single object, so you can use Object > Fill and Stroke to select its color. Set Fill to None, and Stroke to the color and opacity you want.I don't think these are "hints", because the idea is not to convey extra technical information about the schematic, or the designer intent behind parts of it; it is only to help humans perceive and understand it more clearly. The additional information is notnecessaryon top of what the schematic shows if simplified/converted to black and white only, it is only there to reduce the cognitive load when trying to parse/read/understand the schematic.I see "hints" more like the comments delineating a subsection saying "pre-regulator" or "filtering", explaining the designer idea behind the schematic, somewhat similar to code comments in software. I'd never use color to convey that kind of "hints". I'm sure my understanding of the way others use the terms differ, butyoudon't seem to bother to try and define them. I guess "everybody knows what a hint is!", eh?

author: Shock
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2025, 06:16:55 pm
content: I had to check for a moment I was in a thread about off topic moderation.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2025, 06:26:36 pm
content: Quote from: Shock on February 06, 2025, 06:16:55 pmI've been experiencing thread drift for 39 years, since shortly after the kremvax hoax, andbang pathemail addresses were used.Nonetheless I thinkthisdrift has run its course.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2025, 08:58:50 pm
content: Giving my $0.02 to the original moderation discussion...Quote from: EEVblog on February 04, 2025, 12:20:37 amNot only that but, if the topic of a thread is inflammatory to your own nervous system,youare the only person in the world that can control your own urge to respond / react. Casting aspersions and levelling everyone else that disagrees with you like BD139's OP can be exhilarating but will do nothing to your argument. Also, you probably wouldn't say that to someone's face without risking being punched, but that is the internet these days.Quote from: tszaboo on February 04, 2025, 11:26:10 amIndeed. While there might be an argument as to how the forum SNR is being reduced, I suspect this is mostly due to the people that started reducing their own SNR due to their participation in the most contentious discussions (T3sl4co1l being one of them).Fortunately those "cancellation" tactics such as claiming the various people/opinions as "-ists"/"-isms" or the "reductio ad absurdium" of self-victimization as credible arguments are coming out of fashion quite rapidly. The grift is up but some didn't yet get the message.Trump and Covid certainly broke the minds of many. During the Covid days, I simply left this and other forums for a long while to leave the current zeitgeist of myopic opinions to cool off - the so-called "conspiracy theories" and "misinformation" that were proven to be true. I know several that did the same - which was the only option but nonetheless the most sane one. Again, we can only change ourselves and not others, especially when discussions become vitriolic, so I left. Slowly coming back as I see the sanity is coming back as well.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2025, 09:36:40 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on February 05, 2025, 12:56:48 amHow is professional fact checking any better?In whom do we trust to be the arbiters of truth?Companies have their own commercial interests which introduce bias and are vulnerable to state interference. As soon as you pick a segment of society to fact check, then it introduces bias. If you base your operation in a certain area, then they'll be more likely to vote a certain way. If you pick, highly qualified graduates then again, it introduces bias.I prefer community notes. It's not perfect, but it's the lesser evil. I consider it to be similar to trial by jury, which is imperfect and has its limitations, but is better than the alternative.QuoteI think what's made things worse over the last four years is many large organisations have subjected their employees to DEI training, which is inherently political. This has inevitably had an impact on this forum. Fortunately I've only had to endure two such courses, one being pretty bad, but nowhere near as bad as the horror stories I've heard and another which was pointless, but more benign.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2025, 10:10:48 pm
content: Quote from: Zero999 on February 06, 2025, 09:36:40 pmI have perfectly nice friends and colleagues who have been brainwashed into thinking that they are horrible people.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2025, 10:25:23 pm
content: Quote from: Zero999 on February 06, 2025, 09:36:40 pmOn balance, would you prefer to rely on a qualified doctor or electrician the as self-appointed "expert" on Clapham omnibus?After Michael Gove loudly pronounced that we shouldn't trust experts, I was hoping he would need a non-urgent operation. I would have fought all-comers to be his surgeon.Truth is rarely pure and simple, and is arrived at by a consensus of experts - not by a bunch of randomers.QuoteAnd states are vulnerable to corporate interference (as per Trump) military influence (as per Eisenhower), social influence (as per democracy).Bias and influence and interrelationships are everywhere.your bringing only "the state" into that argument is a political statement that a libertarian would make.QuoteI don't; most people are grossly ignorant of most subjects. Renaissance man ceased to exist long long ago.I strongly suggest you read "The Secret Barrister" before holding jury trials up as a paragon.QuoteYou are monomanic if you think DEI is a principal cause of the current malaise. For the avoidance of doubt, I'm not a fan of DEI training.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2025, 10:52:46 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on February 06, 2025, 10:25:23 pmJust to correct your (common, it has to be said) mistake, that isn't what he said. His actually said:QuoteThat was, of course, paraphrased and twisted by the media, andthatmisinterpretation picked up by the likes of you without reference to the original.I recall we had, at that time, disgreements between experts on some things and, as he noted, stuff that turned out to be wrong. He was reflecting the frustration of not knowing who to believe. And, as it happens, social media is now full of experts spouting dangerous rubbish, so was he wrong? (rhetorical question).Quote from: Zero999 on February 06, 2025, 09:36:40 pmI think we have to go with those that have a track record (which isn't foolproof - cf. MMR) and something to lose if they deliberately mislead (also not foolproof).

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2025, 10:59:38 pm
content: Quote from: Zero999 on February 06, 2025, 09:36:40 pmThe Clockwork orange Ludovico comes to my mind when I hear about these courses..I have no idea how to survive in a corporate environment like that. Probably the only sane way would be to get stoned before that brainwashing session, to not get myself fired.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2025, 11:14:15 pm
content: Quote from: PlainName on February 06, 2025, 10:52:46 pmTheres a bit of revisionism in there, which isn't surprising since Michael Gove is frequently called a snake by those that have dealt with him. From what I can see, his modus operandi is to determine what his audience wants to hear, and then tell them that. He has many different audiences.In this case he had to "clarify" his stance on experts.https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-39102847QuoteReasonable rules of thumb, devoid of ideological tunnel visionI'd add that conflicts of interest are also relevant and should be taken into account, with MMR/Wakefield being a poster child for that.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2025, 11:30:50 pm
content: Gove is and was a two-faced back-stabbing git. But what he said is what he said.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2025, 11:39:12 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on February 06, 2025, 10:25:23 pmVery true. Unfortunately forgotten by many due to social media being weaponised to steer people away from their own best interests and actual science.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2025, 11:51:18 pm
content: Quote from: tszaboo on February 06, 2025, 10:59:38 pmI was fortunate enough never to have had to undergo such training. That was partly because the main companies I worked for presumed that people were decent, and took a great deal of care to ensure their employees would be.When on internal training courses with other team members, we expected the trainers to be able to justify what they were teaching, and challenged them about the consequences of what they were teaching. Would you expect a group of engineers to do otherwise?Even in junior school, -8yo, I presumed such attitudes right and proper

author: wilfred
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2025, 12:08:28 am
content: Quote from: Shock on February 06, 2025, 06:16:55 pmI was thinking if I could get A.I. to plot the trails left by the thread as it meanders to it's inevitable conclusion. If I did it to all similar threads tracing peoples opinions would they all coincide and finish up at the same point? I have come to the conclusion some people hold opinions to be true because they attach their sense of self to them tightly. They air them on the internet because they are testing them to make sure they are right to hold them. Not that the opinion is right, just that they've come to the right place. I had the same view of trump rallies. I felt the same about the TEA thread. The point they arrived at wasn't necessarily truth, it was just a place to gather, more like a watering hole and the paths taken were more akin to cow paths. Not the shortest, just the least effort and well worn.I wouldn't like to see forum moderation take that away from them.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 07, 2025, 02:27:27 am
content: Quote from: tggzzz on February 06, 2025, 11:51:18 pmI also was fortunate enough to never be involved in that "training". I would have disrupted that crap so hard they would have had to fire me, or remove me from the course as a lost cause.Closest I got that was a "therapy session" with other employees made redundant. Basically a couselling session with a psychologist to help us deal with our "grief" of losing our job. I was away when they marched everyone out the door, so decided to go to the session to see everyone and say bye.We all sat in circle and they went around one by one asking us to talk about our feelings and what it meant to us etc. People crying like crazy. When it came to me I said, happy and smiling, "Nah, I'm good, doesn't matter at all to me". The psychologist assured me that I was just internalising my grief or some BS, and they kept going on and on about how I need to let my feelings out etc. I realised it was a lost cause and just stood up, said bye to everyone and wished them luck and walked out.

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2025, 07:21:34 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on February 07, 2025, 02:27:27 amThat's what they are paid for, I guess.I was bored out of my mind sitting at some other group nonsense like that. When it was my turn to describe what I think my strengths are I just said "can't think of any". Got a lecture about needing to believe in myself more.They can't simply admit that they are wasting your time, because that would be wasting their employer's money too.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2025, 10:00:00 am
content: Quote from: tggzzz on February 06, 2025, 10:25:23 pmYou do realise that fact checking orgnisations employ journalists not experts?Would you ask a journalist for medical advice?QuoteI'm not a fan of Gove, but we shouldn't blindly trust experts. They often disagree and it can be wise to seek a second opinion.QuoteThe state is larger than any one company and it has put pressure on social media to push a certain narrative and censor content which goes against it.QuoteI didn't say it was.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2025, 10:30:05 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on February 07, 2025, 02:27:27 amSuch corporate counselling ls little more than a fig leaf, designed to tick boxes. OTOH, some people do benefit from counselling, but in my ignorance I expect such CBT would be more beneficial after a period and over time.Psychologists presuming your mental state isexceptionallydangerous. Start by considering "past life regression therapy" to uncover childhood traumas...https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Past_life_regression

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2025, 10:38:07 am
content: Quote from: magic on February 07, 2025, 07:21:34 amYou are invalidating their entire existence, so expect them to fight backI have occasionally had reason to tell people that I know I'm third rate. The explanation is that there are some people that I listen to very carefully, especially when we disagree, and they have indicated some people that they hold in awe. Ergo I am third rate.I then pause for reflection, and point out that one of the people I listen to is directly descended from two Nobel prize winners. I pause again.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2025, 11:07:43 am
content: W need to be careful that we don't see 'expert' as 'know everything about anything'. Experts are generally expert in their field (obvs.) but that doesn't mean they are similarly expert in other fields, and can sometimes disagree strongly with experts in those other fields.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2025, 12:00:34 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on February 07, 2025, 02:27:27 amI'm mad especially because of the reasons these trainings happen. If you watch Matt Walsh's documentary, several things become clear:- Companies only do it to get ESG money.- The people holding the meeting have no credentials whatsoever. You can become a certified councilor after like an online few hour training, and automated test.- They charge tens of thousands of dollars for these trainings to companies- Simplify the situation, make up things that didn't happen, change history and just lie in generalIt's just grifting. Making a billion dollar consulting business for nothing.As someone put it, today the need for racism is much higher than the supply.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2025, 01:12:50 pm
content: Quote from: tszaboo on February 07, 2025, 12:00:34 pmThere's truth there, but we don't need racism. One thing life has taught me is that- there are good [men,women,Christians,Muslims,shorties,lofties,black,red,white,yellow] people.- there are bad [men,women,Christians,Muslims,shorties,lofties,black,red,white,yellow] people.Now apply Karnaugh map reduction techniquesWe do need the concept that people are in general different, neither better nor worse, and the HR-droid mantra of "treat everybody equally" is dangerous nonsense.