Engineering code of conduct - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 02, 2020, 09:26:24 pm
content: I have an ethical dilemma, that I would like your opinion on. There is one particular case that is happening at my company now. I dont want the situation to escalate or to make a precedent.An electronics engineer (not me) got a task, to design the wiring diagram of an electrical box. It would go in an industrial area, potentially dangerous, so faults are not really tolerable, and this would be copied to a thousand installations. The EE told his manager that he doesn't have the expertise to do it, the manager said that bullshit, they are just electrons and do the task. Or something along those lines, it doesnt matter what was exactly said. We dont have the expertise at the firm to design this, we should hire a consultant to do it.All I'm seeing here is that in engineering, there is the engineering code of ethics, which is different from country to country, but the ideas of it is constant. First two rules:1. Engineers shall hold paramount the safety, health and welfare of the public and shall strive to comply with the principles of sustainable development in the performance of their professional duties.2. Engineers shall perform services only in areas of their competence.( American Society of Civil Engineers )What I see here, it is breaking the first two rules. And I will step in, stop whats happening and right this situation. But then again, this could get me or the guy fired if I dont communicate it well, or just seriously harm work relations. On the other hand, if we mess up the wiring, worst case scenarios could mean setting a tank filled with 1000L gasoline on fire.What would you do? Have you been in a situation like this?

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 02, 2020, 09:51:37 pm
content: Just from a practical point of view: who will catch the flak when these products do go up? Will this guy take all responsibility?

author: RandallMcRee
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 02, 2020, 09:58:15 pm
content: Never been in this situation. I did work at a fault-tolerant hardware company for 20 years. We sold to banks. Millions of dollars on the line. But *no* lives. We took extraordinary measures to test, test, test. QA was paramount.Personally, I know that I have never designed something right the first time without extensive testing. Even then, mistakes got through.If lives are involved then another level up in extraordinary measures is needed. So the extensive testing I was referring to above would still be inadequate. If your company does not do this normally then I would suggest that the expertise does not exist in your company.Just one example--do you have the in-house capability to physically simulate a lightning strike? I'm not sure you actually need to do that, here, but....I do know that storage of flammable materials does need to take such things into account.If the manager goes ahead with this I would consider going to a lawyer.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 02, 2020, 10:05:45 pm
content: Interesting, in the sense of the Chinese curse.I have been in a similar position, but not quite as stark. I have seen others be hit hard. There is no easy solution and multiple approaches should be tried.Do everything to avoid bypassing the chain of command, until there is no alternative.Give the managers every opportunity to do the right thing. Let them claim the kudos for doing the right thing. Guide them to realise the corporate and personal consequences of doing the wrong thing. Get them to informally validate your opinions with other competent engineers.Talk to your peers to calibrate your beliefs, your actions and gain support.Document everything via emails and contemporary notes, in case lawyers become involved. Use note books with preprinted page numbers.Try to get external legal advice, possibly through a support mechanism and/or a professional organisation.If things get nasty, expect the corporate hierarchy to protect itself. Be prepared to take unpleasant decisions based on that.In my case the corporate culture was such that my manager got another engineer to check and validate my concerns, then made acceptable choices.Ultimately you can escape many situations, but you can never escape yourself.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 02, 2020, 10:10:55 pm
content: Ask your manager if they'd employ an industrial electrician to design electronic circuits.

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 02, 2020, 10:17:34 pm
content: If your contracts say no liability for yourselves, and you've done the CYA documenting who's requesting it and who's responsible (your direct manager and etc.), it shouldn't matter, legally speaking.As for ethically -- I would think about a range of actions:- Ask the manager(s) for special authorization and indemnification, stating that this engineering work is provided by undersigned (worker) as-is, no assurances for fitness, safety, regulatory compliance etc., and that undersigned (manager), as a legal representative of (company), takes full responsibility for the project.(Again, might not mean anything if this is already in your contracts, but interesting to emphasize the weight of the immediate matter. And if it is, just bringing up and clarifying that section of your contract would do.)- Elevate. If (immediate manager) isn't concerned, is (higher up)? How about corporate?- Start a petition, get signatures from other engineers in the dept / company / field, agreeing that this is not a great idea, and that at the very least sufficient materials (training, regulations/standards, etc.) be provided, but preferably it be done by someone imminently qualified.- Report it to relevant safety authorities. OSHA, uh CSB, whoever. They will likely take it seriously. I don't know how exactly they deal with design side issues, but ask around, I'm sure they are very helpful and can provide direction.- And yeah, asking a lawyer isn't a bad idea. Their power may not extend very far beyond the law (which, see first options), but lawyers are accountable to their ethical code and you may find they are sympathetic.Oh, hm, as for a more offensive tactic -- if you can find regulations that show the relevant hardware must be designed by a licensed professional engineer (PE) or something to that effect, that's direct (legal) liability to the company, and corporate will want to see that (and if they turn out disinterested, you know exactly where to go (the PE society) straight after!).Tim

author: RandallMcRee
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 02, 2020, 10:19:06 pm
content: Yes, what tggzzz says makes a lot of sense.Try asking a set of questions to management which makes clear the very different requirements of a circuit (the same circuit) that:1) is used in home entertainment2) goes into avionics such as a plane3) goes into space4) provides life support to a patientEach of these is a very different situation and would require vastly different expertise for that same circuit. As well as potentially very different components!

author: m98
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 02, 2020, 10:31:36 pm
content: Are you even legally allowed to design such systems? Academic qualifications alone don't make you eligible to certify, design or even work on all kinds of electrical stuff. So maybe design the wiring diagram to your best knowledge to make your boss happy, and then tell him that someone with the appropriate qualifications needs to take it from there.

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 02, 2020, 10:41:30 pm
content: Who will be performing installations of this box on the customer side? I bet it typically be a qualified electrician who may flag the design/drawings as not compliant to the Electric Code of the country of installation. This situation is just begging for troubles for your company and may expose to liabilities.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 02, 2020, 10:47:09 pm
content: Checking contracts is potentially relevant. I once wrote a contract to develop an X which explicitly stated it we did not guarantee it was suitable for X. The client understood and accepted the contact.Checking requirements for it to be done by a competent person (in contract, corporate guidelines, professional obligations) is a useful warning shot across the bows.Going to an external body is crossing the Rubycon, but might be necessary.Find out who in the company has most to lose if the worst happens. Ensure they know of your concerns.Each of those actions will be regarded as hostile by one or more people. With care that might not matter too much.

author: engrguy42
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 02, 2020, 10:47:37 pm
content: Hold on a minute...a "wiring diagram for an electrical box"? When I read that my first thought is maybe the boss is right.What are we talking about here? If it's a simple switch box or fuse box then maybe there are enough standards and guides out there that you/he can come up with something. Or if it's a relatively simple and standard installation maybe just copy something that's already out there. Maybe this is a good learning opportunity. Maybe if it's for a specific installation at some industrial customer you can visit there and see how it's done in other, similar electrical boxes. Or grab some existing drawings for the installation and just duplicate what they already have. Or check UL/ANSI/IEEE whatever standards.Now if it's something complex and custom and definitely takes someone with a ton of experience in that particular field, that's another thing. I'm guessing the company wants to know if it's entering into any risky situations that could result in big troubles in the future, especially if you'd be bypassing any codes/regulations/requirements, etc which would immediately make them liable for damages. That kind of stuff you have an obligation to tell the manager's boss IF IT'S REALLY TRUE. Design and safety standards are there for a reason, so as a minimum I'd do some research to find out the applicable standards/regulations that you'd have to meet (including design/test/etc.) and by doing it internally you'd be bypassing that. Nothing personal against anyone, just the facts.

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 02, 2020, 11:11:18 pm
content: If the EE does the job he should force his boss to sign a document saying the boss has been told that the EE is very concerned that he lacks sufficient experience to perform this job to the level he feels is required.Either the boss signs the document or the job doesn't get done.And if he signs the document you/he has some control over the situation should anything happen in the future.Of course it DOES depend on the situation.The EE should NEVER build anything he fells is unsafe, regardless of any signed document. If you build something unsafe it's mostly on you, regardless of the document.But sometimes it's less about safety and more about not wanting to get fired in the future if something about your work turns out to be wrong. If you have the signed document you can prove it was wrong because your boss made you do something without enough experience and that you voiced your concerns before doing it.You can also record a phone convo with him. However laws about that differ between countries.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 02, 2020, 11:35:45 pm
content: We need to know more about this box. Is it something a licensed electrician could wire up without any set diagram and they just want to standardize it? What voltages does it control and what does it do? Is there a PCB?

author: VK3DRB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 02, 2020, 11:41:25 pm
content: Use email, not speech. So that if it goes to court because someone was injured or killed, the manager is made accountable, not the employee.

author: engrguy42
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 02, 2020, 11:49:53 pm
content: Geez, guys, don't you think you're going a bit overboard?Signing petitions??? Contacting lawyers?? Documenting everything??Don't you think you should see if there's a problem first?

author: AlfBaz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 02, 2020, 11:55:59 pm
content: Quote from: NANDBlog on June 02, 2020, 09:26:24 pmAsk for training and standards. Find out what, if any, certification is neededThe area the device is installed needs to be classified. There are varying levels of hazardous zones and this seems like one. There a lot of standards that are mandatory in this field

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2020, 12:10:19 am
content: Anybody can be an "engineering manager". I've had many managers push me around to design or deploy unsafe equipment. It's a big problem in the profession.An engineer is supposed to decline any unsafe or outside our expertise work. We have the power to say "NO". A wimp engineer, the "yes man" unfortunately exists to please the boss - steer way clear of them and their projects because one safety transgression leads to another and another and soon it's a minefield.With HazLoc products and installations, you don't want to be liable for a plant exploding or catching fire, as an engineer or a company. I just refuse to sign off on dangerous stuff and tough cookie to my employer, fuck'em if they won't follow safety standards. Engineers do have a voice, or I'll walk out if they try corrupt my work.Once an employer had a new grad, fresh engineer-in-training solely do a bunch of HazLoc and electrical work. The Client noticed the drawings were not stamped or formally approvedBoss ran to me demanding I sign off on them. I looked and the designs were unsafe and no way to go backwards as it was already built! So I said "NOPE" and caused a shitstorm. It's not just a formality, getting something signed off. Also, it's to be done before anything is built.Client really pissed off, as their plant insurance policy is invalid if unknown junk is installed. Client complained, Engineering Association found out, reprimanded and gave a presentation to all the execs explaining how engineering responsibility works. I never heard how they fixed up that mess.A company's Permit to Practice lists the responsible member who is supposed to sign off on all engineering activities in a company.P.S. Worked with an ATEX approved product where the Ph.D engineer ran a power cable inside a 4,000L gasoline tank

author: Gregg
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2020, 12:56:55 am
content: More details on what is required for this box would be very helpful.I once had a change order for a large 480 volt 3 phase project dumped on me to provide lead/lag for a number of pumps and fans. After a couple of hours on the internet I found a company that specialized in such items and called them on the phone and explained that I wanted to talk to one of their engineers before I talked to sales. After a little explanation, I was able to talk to the right person and emailed a block diagram of what was needed. Meanwhile I put together spreadsheet with a BOM and estimated labor to do it in house. The next day I received a quote for the complete panel with a projected lead time and it was about 60% of the estimate I had made. I took the results to my boss and explained that it would be cheaper and faster to just buy what we needed.Moral of the story is not to butt heads with management, but gently lead them to the right decision. I have had more than one manager tell me that they didn’t have to know what their people did; they only had to know how to manage.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2020, 01:27:21 am
content: Quote from: engrguy42 on June 02, 2020, 10:47:37 pmThat would not be engineering. That would be gross negligence.The two legal questions I would ask are:1) Is the work within the scope of the engineers professional license, if licensure is required?2) If the engineer currently lacks the expertise, can he/she acquire it? IOW, can they learn what is needed to do the job correctly.Experience is overrated. Education and training are more important. Experience will not help you avoid the mistakes that you haven't made yet. It may make one more comfortable with a job, but that can be a false sense of security. Copying another installation gives no assurance that you have any idea of what you are actually doing.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2020, 02:38:42 am
content: Quote from: Psi on June 02, 2020, 11:11:18 pmREAL WORLD: boss refuses to sign or put anything in writing, and says if you don't complete the task you'll be fired.Been there done that, walked off the job and left them to it. Wrote a letter explaining the reasons and sent a copy to their legal department pointing out the specific legislation that I refused to break and that I knew they had a management chain who intended to ignore it. Better than possibly going to jail for negligence if anything went wrong.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2020, 04:50:46 am
content: Seems like there needs to be a lot more information to really answer this question. And it can't really be totally answered.1. Just about any circuit, even a simple LED blinker can result in a hazard under some extreme conditions (epileptic user, areas where blinker could be confused with safety markers or guidance flags for examples). The designer of the circuit cannot be responsible for all possible applications of a design. And certifications for those worst case applications are not required for every design.2. Liability for most hazardous applications are dealt with with a variety of "due diligence" requirements. Use of or supervision by a licensed engineer is one form of such due diligence. Compliance with applicable codes is another. Without knowing more about the "electrical design of a box" and "could become a standard applied over and over" there is no way to know if an established due diligence procedure exists for the application. There is a very real chance that no one in the world is "qualified". Or that anyone is if it conforms to a published standard.3. My view of engineering ethics would require me to avoid the job if I knew that hazards were involved, if I knew that I didn't understand appropriate mitigation of those hazards, and that I could not learn them and if it was impossible to document the limitations of "due diligence" resulting from my performance of the task.4. Avoiding the job doesn't really get you off the hook. Lets say you do avoid the job. You even convince your company to avoid it. Does your ethical standard require you to go out and assure that no other company takes it on without appropriate expertise? Without having said expertise how can you determine is someone else does not have it? Can you define what is missing, or what is necessary?

author: Berni
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2020, 05:36:59 am
content: This is indeed a bit of a sticky situation.My best advice is to try and make that manager see how big of a deal this is. Get an email going between a few other engineer coworkers about what they think of this (Making it clear to them what this is about beforehand) and then involve the manager on the recipient list. That way there are multiple people backing up his opinion that it is a bad idea and there is a email paper trail that could be useful later on (If this thing ends up escalating and you need to prove to someone else what happened such as higher up management or HR or i sure hope not court). Often management would also want a one on one meeting to discuss such pressing issues, in that case you have nobody to back you up, so id recommend recording such meetings on your phone.My guess is that after this they would have the engineer do it anyway but also make the engineer find someone who is qualified to check the plans and sign them off (with the management agreeing to pay for that now)Management can be stubborn sometimes. For non safety critical stupidities i learned its the best to just play is pacifist and do whatever they want, but make sure i have a paper trail for the command to do so and my argument against it. If shit hits the fan they will usually say they never told me to do that, to what i reply with a forward of that email.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2020, 06:02:28 am
content: I'd want to know much more detailed information about the device in question and the environment in which it was to be used before I made a decision. I wouldn't automatically shy away from it, I mean several years ago I designed, developed a product that works with 6.6A high voltage series streetlighting systems that were once common all over the US. I had no experience developing such products but neither did anyone else who hadn't retired or died years if not decades ago. In the end my hand made prototypes ran in the field in a major US city for over a year before they were replaced with production units. We sold several hundred of the things to cities, oil refineries, military bases and other installations all over the country and most are still in use, not hugely profitable given the small quantity but it was a fun and very educational project and I'd do it again.The series regulators are anywhere from 5 to 50kVA. A 50kVA 6.6A regulator is a somewhat terrifying device, if you break the circuit while it's live the angry buzzing arc can be drawn out well over a foot. There used to be one other company making competing products and theirs had a reputation for catching fire, to this date none of ours ever have. There are risks in everything, life is a series of calculated risks and in each case you have to weigh the risk vs the potential reward and decide for yourself if it's something you want to jump into. Make sure you find out ahead of time exactly who the responsibility lands on if something goes wrong.

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2020, 06:17:16 am
content: Quote from: engrguy42 on June 02, 2020, 11:49:53 pmDocumenting everything is never going overboard

author: Warhawk
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2020, 07:03:02 am
content: I personally avoid not only things that are illegal but also immoral. From time to time there's a conflict between these two and I value moral behavior more over legal bindings. First, it is great that you came here for an opinion. This shows your high moral standards.Most conflicts I've ever been part of were just miscommunication and lack of willingness to understand. Start there. What if this is a critical project for the company and without it they would lay off five people? You may not know. What would you do if this is the case?Create a risk assessment. What can happen if the wiring is incorrect, uses improper components or techniques. Be strictly technical.Identify what are professional requirements for getting this job done. Any government certifications needed? I bet there are electricians internet forums in you home country.Identify who would be personally responsible for an incident. Point a finger at your boss.This can be just a single A4 page. Make your manager signing it or send this to him by post mail with delivery confirmation.**No job is worth waking up every day knowing that there is a hazardous device you deployed.** I probably watch Air Crash Investigations (Mayday) TV show too much.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2020, 07:50:58 am
content: Quote from: Someone on June 03, 2020, 02:38:42 amThere are ways to help guard against that.In the UK civil service the "traditional" way is that if you are being instructed to do something you think is wrong you write a formal letter/email to the manager stating what you believe they are asking you to do, your objections, and "ask for written guidance".Then if push comes to shove you have something to show HR and employment tribunals. If you are dismissed "unfairly" or in this case "constructively" then you can be awarded triple damages; I know someone that received that and walked into another better jobQuoteYes; I've never had to do that.BTW, the OP is right not to provide details of the particular situation. The mud-ball details are irrelevant when considering general principles visible from 30000ft

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2020, 07:54:34 am
content: Quote from: Berni on June 03, 2020, 05:36:59 amIn such situations try to have a "supporter" in the room. They are there to make sureneitherside's points are missed or misunderstood.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2020, 08:29:47 am
content: Thats a lot of reply. I will give some background.The company I work for typically deals with ATEX/IECEX equipment. We design intrinsically safe electronics devices, that go into areas where explosive atmospheres are likely. When we design stuff here, we follow the law, we follow the IEC rules, we follow the national standards, and everything is checked and double checked by a notified body. Otherwise I would've left a long time ago. I personally oversee a lot of these projects, and designed electronics here.There are a few projects, that dont require this. So this project doesn't go into an ATEX zone. But it is an electrical box that is bolted on an IBC tank, controlling 230V/380V heating equipment on that tank. Few KW goes here. The tanks can carry anything from milk, to paints, fuels, chemicals. Anything liquid that would need heating. We made a GPS tracker, and we connect a 3rd party heating controller to the cloud. It needs new wiring, 230V and low voltage. Setting the tank on fire is very very unlikely, but even so, I wouldnt take any chances. Even simple things, like missing ferrules, or having insufficient isolation thickness on a cable.We are not going to do these installations/modifications. So there is the problem, that we dont even have the expertise to make electrical drawings. The engineers here, we make PCBs, not electrical boxes. We dont even know, which standard to bring up. And management's mentality is: If the client havent asked for a standard, it is not required.Quote from: Bud on June 02, 2020, 10:41:30 pmYes, it would probably just stop there, and bounce back as a problem.Quote from: m98 on June 02, 2020, 10:31:36 pmProbably not. But then again, if someone would ask you, which standard you need to apply when designing a suspension bridge, what would you say?Quote from: floobydust on June 03, 2020, 12:10:19 amMy first reaction is also that. But inside the tank is Zone 0, so if the current/voltage/power on that cable is below the IIC limits, and the cable can handle that environment continuously forever, and the connections have triple safety, that could be a valid design. In any case, if it is possible to avoid, I would do anything to avoid that.Quote from: floobydust on June 03, 2020, 12:10:19 amDont even get me started on that.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2020, 08:40:25 am
content: Quote from: NANDBlog on June 03, 2020, 08:29:47 amActually, I just had an idea. We need CE on the product, that means, that it needs to confirm with the LVD."About the low voltage directive (LVD)The LVD covers health and safety risks on electrical equipment operating with an input or output voltage of between50 and 1000 V for alternating current75 and 1500 V for direct current"We just need to have someone state that this is a requirement, and start from there. It will be revealed, that we don't have the expertise for that.

author: m98
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2020, 09:11:24 am
content: Quote from: NANDBlog on June 03, 2020, 08:29:47 amThe task you described sounds like something every industrial electrician could do in less than a day, maybe convince your Boss to hire one for the job?I wouldn't have a clue where to even start designing a suspension bridge, but if I had to design an electrical installation, I'd know where to find the applying standards:https://www.vde-verlag.de/standards.html

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2020, 09:22:01 am
content: Quote from: m98 on June 03, 2020, 09:11:24 amThat's what I'm trying to achieve.VDE is also good idea. The customer is German, they would ask for it. So LVD and VDE.Not to mention, being a German standard, we have a good excuse of not knowing it.

author: Jeroen3
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2020, 09:53:48 am
content: You're getting into an expensive project if you need to sell it to Germans.There are no laws restricting who may or may not engineer things in europe iirc. Everything is "industry regulated".There is also no law for electricians. Law just says the owner of the building/company must ensure compliance to relevant industry standard.Germans enforce standards a lot more strictly than the Dutch.(if specific standard was named it must be freely available, undermining standards bureau revenue)But we have some mandated things. eg: working with refrigerant (STEK), transporting hazardous materials (ADR) or working on oil/gas infrastructure (government owned).The rest is up to the morals of the company or the rules enforced by the insurance company or customer.However, during litigation the engineer may still end up in prison. Eg: Volkswagen diesel scandal..So you're not safe. But, if manager asks interns of juniors to design safety things, yeah, that's on him.See theStint accident.(i suspect everyone here can do a better job)tl;dr: Ask who is doing the liability insurance.

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2020, 10:04:54 am
content: Your German customer has to make sure that the machine adheres to accepted standards anyway. Otherwise the insurance wouldn't pay if something unplanned happens.

author: olkipukki
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2020, 10:51:16 am
content: Just my 2 centsQuote from: NANDBlog on June 02, 2020, 09:26:24 pmWhatever (s)he said mean nothing, might be forgot already and you cannot reference to this after some time, such as "he said that, I did that"Quote from: NANDBlog on June 02, 2020, 09:26:24 pmEE should write an email to express his(-er) concerns and doubts.Don't use first-person forms, overall context should be watered down and diluted a bit - just open for different interpretations and enough pass a ball to manager's side.The wording is very important on this stage.Also, EE should CC more than once person and asked their opinions, but don't escalateOf course, extremes happened very rare, a manager can invite EE "wtf're doing....? you're fired!"Quote from: NANDBlog on June 02, 2020, 09:26:24 pmKeep your mouth shut until a manager ask what options are.In most companies, to hire a person (perm/temp) a long and painful procurement process, don't forget your manager need to explain to level up why (s)he need additional budget, people and time,and also arrange with HR etc.In short, it's not your problem, let manager to do their jobQuote from: NANDBlog on June 02, 2020, 09:26:24 pmYou do not want to remind 'Hippocratic Oath' to your managerQuote from: NANDBlog on June 02, 2020, 09:26:24 pmYou need to be dragged into this by EE or ideally by your manager, not voluntary to 'step in'Quote from: NANDBlog on June 02, 2020, 09:26:24 pmI am not expert in NL employment laws, but to fire somebody who refused to do a work not been hired, very unlike in the most EU countries.In worst cases, your manager will be upset and put 'a mark' on you.

author: Jeroen3
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2020, 12:17:25 pm
content: Refusing to do a job you're not qualified for is not a valid reason to be fired. Your lawyer will have a field day. And any lawsuit will become public knowledge. Not the best path as employer to pick.Unless you have been hired to do that job specifically, then you can be fired obviously.In all other cases you have to be bullied out.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2020, 04:41:41 pm
content: Quote from: NANDBlog on June 03, 2020, 08:29:47 amThanks for the detail. It's an interesting dilemma and I can't advise you as to how your laws work on this, but just generally it appears that this electrical box ends up being integrated into an end product that is at least nominally portable, right? I'm assuming IBC tanks aren't used in permanent installations, someone correct me if I'm wrong. So the building electrical codes wouldn't really apply, but there would be a bunch of other ones that now would. You mentioned the obvious, CE, but the whole notion of using it for such a wide variety of uses would really have me worried. Even jellybean ICs often have restrictions on using them in aviation, medical, military, mining, critical process control, etc. You need an additional certification (and $$$ more) to get essentially the same part but for that application. I don't know how you go about designing and certifying even a simple product for use in that many areas.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2020, 04:59:46 pm
content: Quote from: NANDBlog on June 03, 2020, 08:29:47 amPerhaps it is a test to see how resourceful the engineering department actually is. Engineers are supposed to come up with solutions. For starters: figure out which standards apply. Look on internet for pointers, call a few companies. My simple solution for these kind of situations is: acquire the knowledge to do the job. An engineer is never done learning.Edit: Gregg's solutionm (outsourcing) is also a good one but you'll still need to know some basic regulations / requirements to verify the solutions offered is the right one.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2020, 05:47:00 pm
content: Quote from: NANDBlog on June 03, 2020, 08:40:25 amWell, obviously if it has to comply with the LVD (and all the more if you don't have much in-house expertise on that/and thus internal knowledge and appropriate means of testing), you are STRONGLY adivsed to have your device tested in an external lab that will analyze the design and test it and eventually give its compliance approval or not. If your management half knows how to deal with CE marking, they will likely tell you that. And if you manage to get something to pass the conformance tests, although not a 100% guarantee that it is well designed, it will be at least a guarantee that it is compliant with the required standards. Now if you never manage (at least in reasonable time) to get something to pass, then OTOH you'll have proven you're not qualified for that.Of course never ACCEPT to release a design if your management doesn't want to pay for external conformance tests.But as long as some engineering task doesn't formally require a specific qualification that you don't have, I don't think you can really refuse the job. Just make it clear, as others have said, that you have limited knowledge and experience for this, and that using an external lab for compliance testing won't be optional. That will put all the responsibility in the hands of your manager(s).

author: 0culus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2020, 06:29:36 pm
content: Quote from: engrguy42 on June 02, 2020, 11:49:53 pmFrom a non-life-critical systems perspective, often the most effective course I've seen used in situations where you're asked to do something you know isn't going to work or will cause more problems is to explain why it won't work (in writing) and (in writing) ask the person requesting the work to provide (in writing) that they are taking responsibility for it. Usually you don't hear another word from them about it. Office politics...

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2020, 06:37:31 pm
content: Quote from: 0culus on June 03, 2020, 06:29:36 pmYes.That's a variant of the "requesting written guidance" technique I outlined earlier - but more passive-aggressive and therefore better suited to the UK civil service

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2020, 08:42:06 pm
content: Quote from: Gregg on June 03, 2020, 12:56:55 amThat's an excellent example of being the solution instead of the problem. That's how you resolve conflicts like a pro.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2020, 09:33:10 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on June 03, 2020, 04:59:46 pmWe did that. We hacked together a proof of concept wiring last week which was working. I helped him, after he asked for my help, thats how I'm even got involved in this. He shared his concerns about the drawing, and other problems.I dont need to be an electrician to say that the hacked together part is not safe.Quote from: SiliconWizard on June 03, 2020, 05:47:00 pmDue to ATEX we have to constantly deal with CE, certifications and such. Regularly with and ATEX project, all they see is that a paper shows up, a bill from the NoBo, and thats it. It is a nuisance, an inconvenience for them, months of hard work from me. At least this is for the upper management. We couldn't successfully explain, why does intrinsic safety increase the project difficulty.And of course, they think that there is no ATEX on this product, so no rules apply. We do whatever the hell we want. I'll just simply going to point out, that we can't.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2020, 09:42:23 pm
content: Quote from: NANDBlog on June 03, 2020, 09:33:10 pmBut there must be someone who can tell you what regulations apply. Perhaps Dare consultancy (a safety and EMC consulting / testing lab in the Netherlands) can help you out.

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2020, 09:52:28 pm
content: It's three issues:Heater controller safety - proper sensors and limit switches, controller is wired and configured properly etc.Electrical safety - proper fusing, wiring, enclosure etc.Vessel safety - proper pressure relief valve, not an old rusty tank, shutoff valves etc.(possible HazLoc safety IEC60079)This "IoT crisis" for many companies has them scrambling to outfit equipment they have no knowledge about, and their team is not qualified to do 100%. The danger is all this stuff outside of your knowledge and expertise, are you now an electrician or vessel or heater expert? Learning is great and fun- but not appropriate where there are safety hazards and this is why mentors exist.Second danger is management buying on the cheap old equipment and refitting it for a new purpose that it may not be suitable for or is worn out.There are many specific safety standards for fluid heaters and their controllers, IEC 60730 part 2's for example. Water, oil flammables are different sections.The danger is if the fluid is overheated, say from a stuck contactor or bad sensor. The hardware and software are to be done a certain way, redundancy, safety limits etc. defined in those standards. I assuming you're using a suitable controller but even then there are specific requirements.The tank also needs (pressure vessel safety codes) pressure relief valves to avoid explosions, so that is another level of regulatory for the piping and tank. Regular pressure tests, inspections so you don't use a rusty old tank.For the electrical regulations, you can make the panel yourself and have it inspected. Or give it to an electrical contractor who knows them.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2020, 10:17:16 pm
content: Quote from: floobydust on June 03, 2020, 09:52:28 pmWe saw from example, that they are using redundant controllers in an AND relay configuration. The controller is replaced with a newer type, that has serial interface. I'm not too concerned about this, we worked with different examples, and saw others implement our device in their electrical boxes. We just never had to do it ourselves.QuoteThe container is not energized in Hazloc, it is clearly stated. I'm not to concerned about valves or burst discs and such, as that is the container manufacturer's job. I also saw the maintenance schedule, its OK.QuoteThis is the only thing that is being questioned.Quote from: floobydust on June 03, 2020, 09:52:28 pmYou are describing my company, one year before I started there.Quote from: nctnico on June 03, 2020, 09:42:23 pmI'm quite sure there is. We also has a project manager, who is more concerned about me filling out my time sheet, and organizing sprint reviews, than writing proper project requirements. The agile cancer.

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2020, 10:45:03 pm
content: For the electrical panels, you have to purchase, read and know the safety codes to play electrician.EE's mix up colour codes, don't know the grounding and wire gauges required, Wye/Delta poly-phase power, conduit-fitting sizes and types - there is a lot to learn and mistakes can have consequences.First I subcontracted out to a panel shop and they looked after it all. You should do this.Later I did read the electrical codes, looked at existing installations and drew up "electrical" wiring diagrams (they can't read schematic-style). Then after manufacturing, an inspector comes by and approves the panels. Or disapproves. I had one 24VDC rail with ATO car fuses on it and they said "no" to that, because the power supply/step-down transformer could short pri-sec and the fuse would then have to clear mains voltages. OK, no prob just change over to DIN rail 5x20mm fuseholders. But it's a learning that you need 250VAC fuses on a 24VDC rail, as an example.I do P. Eng stamp electrical panel designs now, but sometimes an electrician installing it will phone to clarify anything or I can still get mixed up with a site having "high-leg Delta" and nobody knew.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2020, 05:21:21 pm
content: I've talked to my managers. We added LVD and VDE to the project requirements, and agreed that an industrial electrical engineer will do the electrical wiring diagram. All good, they were surprisingly receptive to the reasons and didn't put up a fight. Thanks for the advice.Although, clarification for the people outside the EU:If you want to sell something in EU, you need to draft a Declaration of Conformity, and state that it confirms to the requirements of CE. The person signing the DoC has the responsibility, to make sure the product is compliant to the harmonized standards, and ultimately the law. While the tasks can be delegated, the responsibility cannot. Which means, that LWYERUP! response is really not appropriate within the EU to this situation.

author: Sal Ammoniac
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2020, 05:42:11 pm
content: Quote from: themadhippy on June 02, 2020, 10:10:55 pmOr a dermatologist to perform brain surgery. After all, they're both doctors.