Magnetohydrodynamic Artificial Heart - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / projects

author: W8LV
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2013, 06:50:27 am
content: Replying to you because I am lost about this whole funding thing.My problem is this: I don't know about backing at all. At my age, I should. But the fact is, I don't.I am working on a project- It is an artificial heart, but mine is different in that it has no moving parts. Really. (Youtube demo of GENERAL concept is here:)I don't have any patents. I need backing to obtain them. There's no obtaining them until it's actually developed, when the cart is finished, so to speak, and is placed correctly behind the horse. But I can't finish it without backing. Even if I set up a little start-up company, say the ABC Company... If the ABC Company has no Patent(s), really that is like saying the ABC Company has no assets. So who is going to invest in the ABC Company that doesn't own any tangible assets? I don't see a million of these going out the door, so to speak, upon completion.I don't know where to go with this. It worries me day and night. I think to myself, every day it's put off, someone who might benefit, won't get it. I am not getting anywhere fast, my lab bench is a giant hole that I throw money into. What to do? I have been putting a lab together, buying parts, building things. I don't know how money works, other than I am very, very careful with what I have, which is why I am not bankrupt...for that reason and I think luck? (getting sick in the USA can bankrupt anyone in about fifteen seconds) I am just an average schmoe with kids and a mortgage.I am NOT looking for a handout. And it might be a failure anyway. But I think that I have solved some fundamental problems. Which might be patentable. But that only makes half a cart. What to do? I don't want to head out to some remote country road intersection and cut a deal with a guy who has a bifurcated tail...know what I mean? And with no funding, an incomplete cart, and no horse, I am feeling like I am seated firmly on a jackass on a set of railroad tracks heading East, with a Locomotive on the same tracks heading West...

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 20, 2013, 07:40:50 am
content: Quote from: W8LV on October 20, 2013, 06:50:27 amAnd if you aren't careful about keeping your idea secret, you won't even get a patent.Simple fact is you won't be able to do a crowd funded campaign and then get a Patent, it doesn't work like that. Crowd funding requires that you publicly release information, and patents require the precise opposite. Release any of the potential patentable info publicly and you invalidate any patent application.QuoteSorry to burst your bubble, but realistically no one is going to buy your company just because you have a patent on an idea. Big companies would rather spend the money invalidating your patent than to buy your patent. They know you don't have the millions to defend the patent, so they can crush you with one fell swoop of a lawyers pen.QuoteYour problem is that you are working on anaritfifical heart!I can't think of any other project that is as legally and practically impossible to bring even remotely close to any sort of market without decades of development, approvals, clinical trials etc. It might even be safe to say it's impossible for an individual to do this. You'd have to cooperate with medical research centres reputable in the field or some such, and always almost this sort of stuff comes through such centres in some way. So your only exit strategy is likely to be trying to sell the patent, and well, good luck with that. Like I said, they almost certainly won't do that with an individual, you'd likely need cashed up angel investors who could put some fear behind the patent.

author: W8LV
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2013, 10:00:00 am
content: I appreciate your insights and advice even as you call it as it is, and especially because you call it as you see it. I haven't divulged specifics for the exact reason of invalidating potential patents, which is why I just showed a simple youtube of my generalized demo of magnetohydrodynamic flow, which anyone can do with a plastic container, a magnet, a battery and a couple for electrodes (and dont forget the all-important conductive pinch of salt)I am sure that if I were building a more efficient way to neutron enhance a lithium deuteride jacketed nuclear device , funding wouldn't be a problem...(I wonder if those "radio enthusiasts" in a Suburb of Alice Springs just picked that up) and I defiantly SEE the headlight on that locomotive heading directly at me.The Moral Consequences of not doing my work are simply too great not to continue doing my work on the heart. If I have to be a failure trying, then I will have to be a failure trying. But I DO feel that, unable to leap out of the rabbit, building a wooden badger won't help, either. Your assessment of legal corporate trolls is well taken. What I find interesting in my predicament is an "old' world based on Secrecy (tantamount to patents and patent law) and a "new" world based on Collaboration, which seems to be the arena (more so) of this crowd funding concept. Shall the Twain ever meet?What I am doing here isn't what I would call brilliant work. Instead, I have simply made a list of the problems and am attempting to solve those problems a step at a time. What I don't know is how to just shelve it. When it comes to Magnetohydrodynamics, Much like neutron enhanced lithium deuteride devices, How do you put a Genie back into its bottle?"And we, who are all that is left of the old engineersand mechanics, are turning our hands to salvage the world. Wehave the air-ways, what is left of them, we have the sea. Wehave ideas in common; the freemasonry of efficiency--thebrotherhood of science. We are the natural trustees ofcivilization when everything else has failed."(From Things To Come - H.G. Wells)

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 20, 2013, 11:01:32 am
content: Quote from: W8LV on October 20, 2013, 10:00:00 amDon't shelve it!I strongly encourage you to keep it up.QuoteThey aren't mutually exclusive.Examples exist of crowd funded projects that have patents attached to them. Although I am not aware of any off-hand that have asked for the money in order to get patents, that would put people off I'm sure.Take Jeri Ellsworth's CastAR for example. It's going to be a relatively "open" project, but it also has patents tucked away behind it that few would even know about.You would always file for a patent pending before any such crowd funded campaign went forward if at all possible.

author: W8LV
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2013, 07:35:44 am
content: Again, your advise is respected and appreciated! As the Gentleman mentioned in the before post (not sure how to reply directly to that one) The Australian invention of a single moving piece Ventricular assist device I am familiar with! I have worked directly with this device and most of the others.I am a Registered Nurse (with a degree in Nursing) and I work at the Ross Heart Hospital at the Ohio State University. I work with heart transplant patients and patients with Ventricular Assist devices nearly every day. I care about my patients, and when I lose one even after thirty plus years in the business, it hurts my MY heart and soul. When I observed the Australian model, this is when I said to myself "Wow! That's a good design! But if ONE moving part is good, NONE must be better!" To sum up my credentials AND my shortcomings: I took three years of Communications Electronics in High School and in the year 2000 I went to DeVry for a year of engineering but then dropped out. Money was a factor. (I have six kids...)I learned in vacuum tube (WWII surplus) equipment in High School. Learning chips was valuable at DeVry. I also learned that the physics never changes, for example 2(Pie)(X)(L) is still the equation for Inductive Reactance! But I never really learned programming. Now with the Arduino, I am trying to make up for that deficit. I DID learn embedded systems and how to use Xilinx at Devry. But I know I am behind the eight ball, an out of place Rip Van Winkle. I DID learn a bit of C+, and I did goof around write programmes for the Commodore 64 (I wrote "Crypto" with Daniel Thompson (KB8QZQ--now a Silent key) I DO know a lot about Radio Engineering, Propagation, Shortwave, and things of this nature.So now you know my strengths and weaknesses. I want to build a better heart. And, someday, I hope that the MHD heart I am working on will be in a museum, replaced with a biological clone heart replacement, which will be perfect in every way, and won't have any issues of tissue rejection whatsoever. This is my Ultimate Dream.Can you help me in my quest to make life better and relieve human suffering? Here is my proposal and I hope I am not boring you:Working privately with my own funds, I have been experimenting with principles of magnetohydrodynamics. This well known phenomena, explained by Lentz's law equations since the nineteenth century, has been lingering for some time as magnets and control mechanisms needed to catch up in order for the equations to move from theory to practicality. My experiments have been more theoretical along the lines of power generation, where (tidal) sea water passes through a magnetic field and power is derived from electrodes placed in ninety degrees opposition to the magnetic field. However, these principals can conversely be applied as either a generator or a pump.It is now conceivable that new types of heart assist devices may be constructed using magnetohydrodynamic principals which are more efficient than the present best available technology offers, by virtue of the complete elimination of moving parts, as no rotors, impellers or valves are required by such a device. The mean time between failure would be greatly enhanced, along with the minimal use of blood thinners or their complete elimination. Native flow would not be obstructed by such a device, allowing synergistic flow between the heart and the artificial device, and would not hamper recovery of native flow in cases where that is possible. Certain patents do exist on such devices, but much more efficient devices I believe are possible. Please understand that I have been advised not to disclose specifics pending my own work.The same principals can be applied to cardiopulmonary bipass during cardiac surgery, and there is the possibility what with nanotechnology applied to the concept, improvements could be made to microcirculation in the heart, and other organs as well. It is also possible that using the technology in reverse, electricity may be derived from blood flow and used to power other artificial devices such as cardiac pacemakers, eliminating the battery problem from implantable devices entirely.

author: W8LV
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2013, 08:02:17 am
content: I HAVE to say one more thing here. I suppose that here in the USA, it would be considered unpatriotic.But Facts are Facts. Australia and the UK and also Germany are far and away ahead in the field of Ventricular Assist devices. Some of the reason MAY be because of the crushing regulations imposed by the regulatory agencies. I am not 100% sure on this... we NEED regulation to ensure our health safety. But it must be a balance. My observation is that we in the USA don't turn out enough Engineers. We are behind. You have to identify your weaknesses before you can correct them. That's not unpatriotic, and I Love the USA and Canada! But we can't catch up if we don't identify this.Setting aside flags and nations, we all are human and must appreciate the human condition and utilizing our skills to improve the human condition and decrease human suffering. Are there any Engineers and others who might feel the same way and be ready to step up to the plate and please God let's solve this problem of improving heart devices? Who out there might work with me and conversely whom can I assist to make our world a better place?

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 21, 2013, 12:59:51 pm
content: Quote from: W8LV on October 21, 2013, 08:02:17 amHuh? How can developing technology be considered unpatriotic?And in any case, who cares what anyone thinks?I think you Yanks take the whole patriotism thingwaytoo seriously!QuoteMedical regulations are very strict in virtually all developed countries, I'm not sure how much different the US really is in comparison?I can almost hear the footsteps of the big-pharma conspiracy theorists coming in now...QuoteHow do you want people to help out exactly?BTW, I'd suggest you take this subject into it's own thread.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 21, 2013, 01:02:38 pm
content: BTW, there was an artificial heart mob in Sydney called Ventracore, but they folded quite a few years back, not sure why.EDIT: found this:http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/03/03/1078295451297.htmlPerhaps you could use LinkedIn to find ex-exmployees of companies like that?

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 21, 2013, 03:21:22 pm
content: Quote from: W8LV on October 20, 2013, 06:50:27 amHi, just curious, but how is your invention different to this one?"Artificial heart using magnetohydrodynamic propulsion" patent US 20060058873 A1http://www.google.com/patents/US20060058873Also what kind of energy (electrical / gauss) requirements would you need for a typical 2.32 psi (120/80) and to pump 10 litres of blood per minute around the body?and if I had one fitted would I have to eat my dinner with a plastic knife and fork? :-)

author: W8LV
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2013, 03:42:01 am
content: Quote from: jucole on October 21, 2013, 03:21:22 pmActually the vads I work with at Hospital run (typically) 3 litres or so a minute... Norm range is 4-8 litres for the entire body cardiac output wise..Best Regards from W8LV in Pickaway County, Ohio, USA.

author: W8LV
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2013, 04:13:14 am
content: Quote from: wilfred on October 20, 2013, 09:42:36 amWell, I knew Ventracor went under, but didn't know the details until I Googled them up... Youch that seems like it was messy! But that invention with a single floating rotor / rotating magnetic field intrigued me. And seeing it, I thought that if ONE moving part is good, then NO moving parts might be better... Time will tell...Best Regards from W8LV in Pickaway County, Ohio, USA.

author: W8LV
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2013, 05:24:02 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on October 21, 2013, 12:59:51 pmI think something got lost in the Yankee Doodle thing... I would just like to see more trained engineers, standardisation with the rest of the Metric world and improved trade of products and ideas, less meddling into other countries, and I wish they would stop your mail AND mine... Just be a bit nicer? That's all I mean. Better relations. With everybody. That would do the better good for the country I live in.I don't know how to place this MHD heart in a separate thread, but "sure"! Good idea! Not real good with the ins and out of the forum yet....this blog and forum are GREAT and boy do I enjoy it all! THANKS for the valuable service and good that you are doing by providing the EEV Blog!How to help? Throw any ideas you have on Magnetohydrodynamics you have my way! Maybe someone Down Under or Across the Pond will conjure up the experiment as I have it on YouTube and "see" an entirely new idea to make it better... You guys are smart, you're innovative (the well built Terlin antenna now on duty here for over ten years in Ohio comes to mind as one fine well made product from Down Under as an example) and you have my respect and attention.All The Best from Ohio!Best Regards from W8LV in Pickaway County, Ohio, USA.

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2013, 09:56:11 am
content: FYI the entire heart in a normal human is a moving part...

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2013, 12:32:48 pm
content: Quote from: amyk on October 22, 2013, 09:56:11 amredundantly complex moving parts, as far as the "fluid pump" is concerned. why it has systolic and diastolic pressure system?

author: babysitter
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2013, 12:56:15 pm
content: Did you ever ask the blood about its opinion to be exposed to a electrical current, even more the organs around ? The really sensitive heart would be of no concern for the targeted patients when going for a artificial heart, but less for heart assisting devices...73Hendi, DG3HDA(Who has spent some time working at the development of the outer periphery of a heart-assisting device...)

author: casinada
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2013, 05:11:07 pm
content: The best path for you is to talk to Doctors in the field, specifically ones involved in research at big hospitals or universities. The university of Arizona was big in artificial heart research and I met the guy that designed one of the first portable artificial hearts. He had some PhD's under his belt. The hardest part is to procure funding for your research and once the device is proven it goes trough many years of testing. There are many philanthropic organizations that would provide the funding if the idea has a good foundation such as the Gates foundation.Good luck.

author: W8LV
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2013, 06:56:02 am
content: Quote from: Mechatrommer on October 22, 2013, 12:32:48 pmWell, there are two types of Ventricular Assist Devices. one is pulsatile, it is really just a bellows and pumps contraption. So with that pump, the patient has a pulse, and therefore a systolic and diastolic blood pressure. The other type of Ventricular Assist Device is a centrifugal pump. Producing a constant output as an assist, when "it" is doing the majority (or essentially "all" of the pumping) and with that centrifugal type, the patient has no pulse(!) and instead of a Systolic and Diastolic Blood Pressure, they just have a "Mean Arterial Pressure" So on the patient bedside monitor screen, instead of seeing an Arterial Waveform-- you just see a straight line showing constant pressure. It's quite disturbing and amazing the first time you see it! There they are, sitting in a chair and talking to you, with no pulse!

author: W8LV
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2013, 07:39:37 am
content: Quote from: babysitter on October 22, 2013, 12:56:15 pmWow! Glad to meet you! Here is how I think that part will work: It looks (to me) like when you look at Lenz's Law, you can have a strong electrical field and a weak magnetic field and then you get the opposing flow of a conducting fluid. And we didn't have good magnets in the past. So to demonstrate that, you had to do that with a weak magnet and a strong current, and there you can move a little bit of saline solution, fun to see that being done as a little tabletop demonstration! (Some reactors, I think have used liquid metal to move in this way. I would suppose that in something like a submarine, where the nuclear fuel is highly enriched as it must be to take up such a small space, this might be a good way to have a coolant...I am also reminded of "Einstein's Refrigerator" somewhat in this respect) And of course for the body, a high voltage that's no good as you say. But it looks to me like you can use a strong magnet and a weak current since we of course have much better magnets now, though I haven't been able to find anything on the upper theoretical limits what the maximum strength of a magnet can be, either permanent of electromagnetic.We might be able to pulse the current in such a way that the electrical system of the heart does not "notice" what we are doing. That's one idea. And there's the timing of the current, which can be to either the electrodes or an electromagnet. And the collapsing field and resultant eddy to consider.I have also thought of it the opposite way (I wondered about this before I considered a MHD heart pump) that a magnetic field and electrodes might be able to generate power from the flow of seawater currents. Such a plant would be secure and out of sight. I thought of this because here in the US, when we put windmill platforms off of the coast, people complain they don't want to see the windmills. Here, everybody moans and groans: We want cheap power, we don't want coal, we don't want reactors, we like wind but not if it's in my backyard or spoiling my view of the sea, we want solar but only if it's in the desert of Arizona. Even placing an Amateur radio antenna can be a regulatory impossibility. But for me I find power plants and antennas to be things of beauty.

author: W8LV
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2013, 07:47:00 am
content: Quote from: casinada on October 22, 2013, 05:11:07 pmThanks, and did you attend the University of Arizona? I'd sure like to meet that guy!

author: casinada
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2013, 05:02:47 pm
content: I graduated in 1991 loooong time ago so I haven't kept in touch with all that stuff but you can google ithttp://www.40th.med.arizona.edu/cardio.cfmhttp://azstarnet.com/news/science/health-med-fit/artificial-heart-will-keep-on-ticking-until-transplant/article_24274092-1827-564e-86e1-aa008752b495.htmlhttps://www.uahealth.com/services/transplant-surgery/heart-transplant/Artificial-Hearts-%26amp%3B-Heart-Pumpsetc

author: babysitter
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2013, 07:58:13 pm
content: Only a very, very short response as i just finished the babysitting task and have stuff to do...No one prevents you from getting some blood of a pig from the local butcher for mhd experiments.Thats what we do after all the relevant replacement liquids are tested. If your local pharmacy trusts you, they might supply you with a teaspoon of very very toxic Natrium flouride, this will inhibit the enzymes and keep the blood seemingly fresh in your test setup for a while.I dont see a big chance for MHD propulsion for blood as even small traces of electrolytic decay products can easily kill you, but you are invited to prove me wrong.Maybe you try the "synchrotron" way - several small acceleration steps instead of one/ few big ones. I dont know if you want to go the assist path or fll replacement -the heart is very very sensitive, for experiments in pigs where heart insufficiency is needed, it is done by damaging the heart with modified pacemakers in the 50 Hz, 64 µA(!) range IIRC. But I think you could find a clever timing scheme where your MHD "pulse" is hidden in a not so vulnerable part of the heartbeat.Having a setup running to show a principle is far away from a product, too.Money is needed , lots of - if you are a technical guy, try to get someone who can sell well even if you normally dont like such people if you have the slightest feeling that you dont want to do this part. Going for trusts to pay for it might not be a bad Idea, dont know the USA well enough.FDA notification: You cannot get around this if you want to sell in the US. Check the CDRH product classification database. Expect a PMA instead of 510K notification to the FDA, somewhere in the CLASS III risk category.I didnt touch the FDA regulated field very often.In CE-land, I am very well doing and even doing a bit of consultant work.As a side note, moving liquids generate movement of charges - my boss was involved in a device called rheocardimonitor long before i came to that business, I think it used that effect. Would have to ask for details. (edited)73dg3hdaStuff in bold: I am sure about it. Not bold, just speculating.EDIT: Word is that from 2010 to 2012, Dick Cheney had a pulseless heart assistant device while waiting for a donor organ.

author: W8LV
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 28, 2013, 12:56:37 am
content: Quote from: babysitter on October 23, 2013, 07:58:13 pmThanks for all of the ideas! Never heard of the Natruim fluoridel preservative before. I did obtain some citric acid from a local home wine/beer brewing supply store and was intending to give that a go with some blood obtained from the local butcher. (Some people here make "Blood Soup" I think it's a Czech or Polish dish...never had it and from the very thought of the concept..opting "out" of that savory selection ;-))One potential problem is possibly RBC's are going to be "attracted" to the cathode, much like electrophoresis effect..this could be a problem or part of a as yet unknown solution...Lots to discover,.for sure!Yes, I think that I recall Cheney having problems with his heart for many years.I know about those babies...now mine are big! They grow up fast.. too fast.Keep the ideas and insights coming, they are appreciated always!

author: babysitter
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 28, 2013, 06:07:52 am
content: Citric acid is a good agent, too, for your application it might be even better, and way less toxic.Aspirin prevents the clogging of thrombocytes in vivo, might be good for your application too.The NaF inhibits some enzymes, also useful but not necessary the best idea for you.

author: W8LV
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 29, 2013, 03:34:58 am
content: Quote from: babysitter on October 28, 2013, 06:07:52 amThanks for the ideas for the other agents, and I may come back to them later for more long term preservation. I considered formaldehyde, but recalled how bad the fumes hurt my eyes, now many years ago at University. I completed a VERY important part of the work today. It's strange when you think you are "almost there" and you find out that was not the case at all. And then you find that something that was right in front of you was precisely what you missed. But as of now of course I am only working with saline and food dye.... we will see...You know, we are so spoiled when we work, we have everything at hand to do so...cheap power, wonderful materials, good instruments, computers. Lenz and all of the others.. think of how they worked and all that they did, and with the materials they had! My saving grace is that even after being "out" of electronics for many years, the equations still work. (Until things get REALLY small that is.. ;-))Electronics still amaze me and it has been a long, long time since I was a little kid and built that first crystal radio and a flashlight made from a battery, a bulb, some wires, and a cigar box that my Dad gave me.Best Regards from W8LV in Pickaway County, Ohio, USA.

author: edavid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 29, 2013, 04:45:26 am
content: It sounds like you are ready to apply for a patent, when you haven't done the most basic calculations to see if your idea will work. MHD is a crappy way to pump a resistive fluid. It's just too inefficient to be practical.