Buying Complementary CROs - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: Ether
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 01, 2014, 10:02:31 am
content: Hi,I came across some second hand Tek scopes which appear to be in working order. Furthermore, they appear to be in good working condition. However, their prices are somewhat expensive for me, given that their remaining lifespan is unknown. Right now, I have a 100Mhz CRO now and I have found myself wanting for higher bandwidth on several occasions. Hence, I wish to seek some advice from you guys. Are these prices reasonable or should I just save up for an entry-level DSO? (e.g Rigol, Owen) I'm not too keen on a DSO primarily because of their low bandwidths but I understand that they do carry several advantages. Thank you in advance.Tek 2455B – 180 USDTek 2465B – 320 USDTek 2445 - 170 USD

author: MartyD
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 01, 2014, 10:22:19 am
content: Hello Ether!I would definitely go for the 2465B if it's in good shape! Along with the 2467B (which I own myself) these are probably the best analog scopes Tektronix has ever made.The price seems right but there are two problems you may run into:a) The scope might need a calibration. Given you have the proper equipment it can be done at home.b) Have a look at the power supply caps, these are prone to fail after several years.Oh, and make sure you get it with the proper probes! 400MHz Tek probes aint cheap, if I remember correctly ONE probe goes for around $400 new.I find myself using the 2230 and 2467B all the time, I much prefer them over my DSOs, whenever possible.Marty

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 01, 2014, 10:46:04 am
content: Quote from: Ether on December 01, 2014, 10:02:31 amIn my opinion this is quite expensive for what essentially are pretty basic scopes which at the end of the day after roughly 25 years are probably quickly approaching the end of their sevice life. All of them were great scopes at their (long gone) days but nowadays I'd say a large part of the money you probably pay for the name (Tektronix) only.On the other hand $200 isn't *that* much money, so depending on your requirements it might be worth a gamble.QuoteWell, that really depends on what you want to do. If you only want the higher bandwidth then one of these scopes could be worth a punt. However, it still doesn't give you the advantages a *good* DSO (which doesn't have to be new!) can give you, specifically in terms of measurement and signal analysis. And with some luck you can get some very nice used DSOs for a little more money.But again, it all depends on what *you* want your scope to do.

author: MartyD
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 01, 2014, 11:17:10 am
content: I agree they are old, but that doesnt make them obsolete. They are built to last, they are fast. We have a few good brands in Germany as well (Rohde & Schwarz, Metrawatt, Hameg), so if you think Tektronix is expensive, have a look at these!And on a second note: try to buy a NEW 400MHz analog scope in 2014.All these old Tek need is some maintainance here and there, but so do more modern scopes over time as well.And yea, it depends on what you want to do with it, these old scopes just offer some cursors and basic measurements, but they trigger on sh*t where any entry-level DSO miserably fails.If you want (or need) the fancy-shmancy math stuff, logic analyzing, protocol-sniffing you want a modern DSO/MDO, but prepare to spend some serious money as well.You can upgrade features later but not bandwidth, so with 500MHz and 4 channels we are already in the $10k range if you choose from the known brands e.g. Keysight, Tek, R&S or Lecroy.Ideally, you have both types of scope.But thats just my 2 cents.Like Dave once said about analog scopes in a video: It's a must have in any decent lab! Pick one up!Marty

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 01, 2014, 12:29:33 pm
content: Quote from: MartyD on December 01, 2014, 11:17:10 amWell, they are. Analog scopes are obsolete, it's a simple, undeniable fact.QuoteThey were, but after roughly a quarter of a century even those scopes will approach tehir end of their service life. Nothing lasts forever, and especially for scopes like the 2465B which if I remember right uses a lot of Tek proprietary components inside which doesn't help repair when it breaks.QuoteWell, they are analog scopes with no noteworthy measurement or analysis capabilities so it better should be fast.QuoteIndeed, R&S kit is very expensive, and they are well known for other test kit (i.e. signal generators). But they only started making scopes in 2008 or 2009 if I remember correctly, and have a very limited offering, In terms of scopes they're still an unknown, and certainly lack the attraction that the Tektronix brand has.Hameg only made low end scopes and some other low end test kit, mostly for schools and TV repair shops (which have mostly died out by now). They are quite well known in Europe but in the rest of the world they are a nobody, and certainly as a brand not even close to the same level as Tek.Metrawatt, well, they are mostly known for DVMs. They did rebadge some analog scopes (Leader?) back in the old days, but these days are even less well known than Hameg. They're even further away from the Tek brand attaction that Chinese brands like Rigol or Siglent, and no-one would suggest their brand has a similar attraction that Tek's.QuoteNot really. Modern scopes rarely have mechanical rotary switches or deteriorating phosphor tubes, or are calibrated by lots of potentiometers.Of course DSOs are relatively young but it's very likely that a good DSO will exceed the lifetime of a good analog scope by some margin.QuoteThat might well be, and if the choice is between these scopes and a new low cost scope (i.e. Siglent SDS1000 or RIgol DS1000) then I'd say the analog scope could still be the better choice.However, an increasing number of older big brand DSOs is becoming available in the price range mentioned for the 2465B, often with much more flexible triggering.QuoteNot really. Advanced maths and analysis can already be found in old LeCroy 9300 Series scopes, with bandwidths of 400 to 500MHz, and these scopes sometimes go for little more than the price listed for the 2465B. And the newer LC Series often goes for not much more, offering faster processing and a color screen. Most of them also offer 500MHz or 1GHz bandwidth. For both scopes all the options are available for free, as are the schematics. And especially with the options these scopes can give you insights into complex signals you'll never be able to get with an analog boat anchor.Obviously if you want serial decode and MSO capabilities it gets more expensive as serial decode means a much younger scope (i.e. Agilent DSO6k Series), but even then you're still nowhere near $10k.Here's an example what $3400 can buy you these days:http://www.ebay.com/itm/LECROY-WAVERUNNER-6100A-1GHz-QUAD-10GS-s-DIGITAL-STORAGE-OSCILLOSCOPE-/231367252526?pt=BI_Oscilloscopes&hash=item35de901a2e#ht_6181wt_988Here's an example for an MSO, again still nowhere near $10k:http://www.ebay.com/itm/LECROY-WAVERUNNER-64MXi-600MHz-QUAD-DIGITAL-STORAGE-OSCILLOSCOPE-/231372226193?pt=BI_Oscilloscopes&hash=item35dedbfe91#ht_8633wt_988Agilent and Tek scopes are generally more sought after and therefore a bit more expensive, but there should be equal deals for their scopes out there. R&S isn't long enough in the scope business to be worth considering, and quite frankly after having the chance to play with an RTO I wouldn't even consider them for a new scope.BTW, $10k buys you a brand new 1GHz MSO these days:http://teledynelecroy.com/oscilloscope/oscilloscopeseries.aspx?mseries=470QuoteI agree, but "pick one up" doesn't mean "spend big money on one". If the 2465B was at $100 and in decent working condition then I'd say go for it. But not for over $300.

author: Ether
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 01, 2014, 01:20:06 pm
content: Firstly, thanks to everyone for the replies.I decided to narrow down my options to the 2455B and the 2465B so the question is, is there any major difference between these models besides bandwidth?Also, is I decide to buy a DSO, the Rigol DS1054Z, how will it stack up against the aforementioned Tek scopes?

author: MartyD
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 01, 2014, 01:31:09 pm
content: @Wuerstchenhund:Thanks for seducing my post in such great detail but I still disagree on the obsolete part.But hey, to each their own.It seems you are a big fan of the Lecroy gear. I have never seen any of them in the wild, so I consider them a bit "exotic". Might be worth a look for the OP though.oh btw: Hameg is now part of the R&S Group. They still make some affordable midrange gear, but even here in Germany almost nobody recognizes them anymore. A bit sad, but thats what you get for lousy marketing.@Ether:The other main difference between the 2465B and the 2467B is the MCP (micro channel plate display), which has an extremely fast writing rate, thus making it more suitable for single-shot, high speed events. The downside of this mcp is (rumours has it) that they don't last as long as a conventional crt. Anyhow, I think you'll be fine with either.I cannot speak for the Rigol, but I dare to compare it to my Siglent.. So yea, they are basic digital Scopes, do not expect too much from them. However, IMHO they make for nice portable field scopes, no more, no less. If you want/need more functionality, better glitch capture, intensity-grading, etc. you might wanna have a look at the Agilent DSO-X 2000 series or the Tek MDO 3000 series. Or maybe the Lecroy Wuerstchenhund mentioned.Marty

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 01, 2014, 02:38:34 pm
content: Quote from: MartyD on December 01, 2014, 01:31:09 pmI'm not really a fan of any technical stuff. I however do believe that they make some great scopes (not all of their scopes are great, though, their low end models really suck!), especially towards the higher end where in some areas LeCroy is the only game in town (100GHz bandwidth and more than eight channels? there's just LeCroy). In some aspects they are a bit exotic I suppose, after all it shows in their design that they come from the high power physics corner and not from traditional EE. The user interfaces (a simple menu driven system for non-Windows scopes, and touch-based MAUI for Windows scopes) are simple and pretty much standardized across their various scope models except for the low end scopes (which are just bought in from Siglent and Iwatsu and rebadged).The best thing is that most people when looking for scopes search for Tek and Agilent, and often that's it. This keeps second hand prices of LeCroy gear noticably lower than for comparable Tek or Agilent kit. In terms of used scopes, they probably offer the most bang for the buck.QuoteI do know that R&S bought Hameg (after all, I'm German, too). I guess what squeezes them is the fact that especially standard scopes have become quite cheap these days, and the margins are shrinking.I still don't understand why R&S wants to get rid of the Hameg brand. At least Hameg is a well known name (at least in Europe) for scopes, while R&S is still a minor player with little track record in the scope market who as a global reputation for very optimistic price tags. They probably want to build the R&S brand to a universal provider of test equipment similar to Keysight and Tek, and therefore want all their products to carry the R&S brand.Well, Hameg is not the first German traditional brand that is killed off, and it probably won't be the last. As far as I know Metz (German TV manufacturer) is now bankrupt, too. What a shame.

author: wazzokk
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 01, 2014, 04:34:46 pm
content: As someone on a seriously limited budget I often use an analog scope, sometimes to work out what my USB scope is telling me. Can,t afford a real DSO but not much money, and a bit of time repairing, can buy a lot of analog capability.Just my 2 pence worth. YMMV.Regards Dave

author: HighVoltage
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 01, 2014, 04:47:17 pm
content: In the world of high voltage measurements with lots of wide bandwidth noise attached to the signal, there is really no way around older analog scopes. Most modern DSO scopes have a real difficult time to display the signal correctly, when you are looking at a 80 kV discharge in to an open spark. So, I am happy with some older analog scopes as well. They are definitely not obsolete for my type of work.

author: extide
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 01, 2014, 05:21:38 pm
content: Quote from: MartyD on December 01, 2014, 01:31:09 pmFWIW, he is comparing the 2455B to the 2465B -- he never said anything about the 2467B.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 01, 2014, 05:25:33 pm
content: Quote from: HighVoltage on December 01, 2014, 04:47:17 pmI'm not into high voltage sparc gaps but I doubt that you couldn't perform the same measurements with a decent(!) DSO, which can deal with wideband noise.QuoteSo you're saying that if you need a scope you have to resort to buying old boat anchors, since analog scopes are no longer made for at least a decade?And are you suggesting that for those measurements no modern solution exists? And what happens when analog scopes will have mostly disappeared from the second hand market, maybe leaving only a handful or resellers with gold-plated price tags? Does this mean the high voltage industry will cease to exist?Somehow I find that difficult to believe.

author: Electro Fan
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 01, 2014, 06:11:19 pm
content: Quote from: Ether on December 01, 2014, 10:02:31 amIf this is the last scope you will ever buy then you want to spend enough time studying the tradeoffs and get it right.If you are driven by a need for higher bandwidth you should share your thoughts on how much bandwidth you are seeking? 200MHz, 300MHz, more?If higher bandwidth isn't essential, or the only or primary motivation, you should consider a digital scope as it will do things that analog scopes don't do.My recommendation would be that if this isn't your last scope (ie, it's a journey) and you already have a decent 100MHz analog scope you should try an entry level digital scope (probably one of the Rigols) to see what modern technology can do for you. I think many people here would tell you that it's useful and enjoyable having both a digital and an analog scope. IMO, anyone who is an oscilloscope enthusiast and is going to embark on the "journey" should probably start with a Tektronix vintage scope and an entry Rigol and after that it will be much easier to see what trips your trigger, figuratively and literally. ~$150-$300 for a Tek analog scope with probes plus the price of a Rigol entry scope is about the lowest cost way to see what it's all really about. Without an analog scope you might always wonder what all the analog buzz is about and without a digital scope you will always wonder why the world moved from analog scopes to digital scopes - with one of each clarity regarding analog vs. digital scopes will snap into place like a well displayed and well triggered waveform.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2014, 06:37:23 am
content: Quote from: Electro Fan on December 01, 2014, 06:11:19 pmNo doubt it can be enjoyable, or even useful. I'm not sure it's that enjoyable if you have to splash out a lot of money for it, though, especially when analog scopes are often given away for free or simply scrapped because, realistically, no-one wants them.And while Rigol does make nice scopes, they are pretty primitive and not a good reflection of what modern technology can do. If anything, it's a reflection of what you can get for not much money (which is still a lot). But it's still a long way from what a more advanced DSO can do.QuoteNot really. All this combo shows you is how scopes worked a quarter of a century ago, and what the modern day equivalent in the form of a low-cost low-performance DSO does. What it doesn't show you is what a good modern-day DSO can tell you about complex signals.Quote"Analog buzz"? It's old technology, nothing more, nothing less. I agree that it can be interesting to see how things have been done in the past but if not there's really not much to miss.For some people analog scopes seem to be the EE's vinyl equivalent, just without an industry producing overpriced kit for "enthusiasts" behind it.QuoteIf he really wants to learn about ancient technology or become a curator for a technology musem then he can achieve the same without splashing out lots of money for an antique analog Tek boat anchor. There are lots of very good analog scopes from other manufacturers (i.e. Philips, HP, Hameg) which can be had for a lot less or even for free, and which are as good as a Tek scope.However, as the OP already seems to have an analog scope I don't think there's a much point in getting another museum piece. And the money that is not spent on antiques can be invested in a better DSO than a bottom-of-the-barrel Rigol (or Siglent or whatever), which in my opinion is much more sensible considering that nowadays DSOs are the way forward in EE land and that analog scopes are dead and buried and for sure won't have a come-back anytime soon.

author: HighVoltage
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2014, 09:16:57 am
content: Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on December 01, 2014, 05:25:33 pm

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 02, 2014, 09:33:22 am
content: Quote from: MartyD on December 01, 2014, 11:17:10 amThe huge difference between DSO's and CRO's is the ability to capture a waveform. Everything else is a bonus.QuoteI don't recall saying that.People very often mis-interpret what I have said about analog scopes.A CRO is a much better option for a beginner than a "toy" handheld DSO if you want a general purpose scope. But now that serious variable intensity displays can be had for sub $400, there is no contest, you only need a DSO. For all but the most extreme niche cases, a CRO will sit on your shelf and gather dust next to a DSO. The game has changed a lot in the last few years.If I had to pick only one scope to have in my lab, the best analog scope ever made, or an old Rigol DS1052E, I'd pick the Rigol in a heart beat.

author: MartyD
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2014, 09:39:09 am
content: @Dave: If I remember correctly it was in the video about buying stuff for a decent lab.You said people often give them away for free or <$100 and that you could learn alot from/with them. Sorry if my quote wasnt your exact words!And if I had to choose between my 2467 and a DSO I'd still pick the Tek.Suits all my needs regarding audio circuitry. But then, I also love vinyl...Anyhow, I think instead of arguing analog vs digital we should help the OP.. No offense guys!Marty

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 02, 2014, 10:43:39 am
content: Quote from: MartyD on December 02, 2014, 09:39:09 amThat point still holds, they are a good beginner learning tool.

author: Electro Fan
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2014, 04:34:37 pm
content: quote author=Wuerstchenhund link=topic=39685.msg561372#msg561372 date=1417502243]Quote from: Electro Fan on December 01, 2014, 06:11:19 pmNo doubt it can be enjoyable, or even useful.- OK, so we are in a agreement here.I'm not sure it's that enjoyable if you have tosplash out a lot of moneyfor it, though, especially whenanalog scopes are often given away for freeor simply scrapped because, realistically,no-one wants them.- Ifno-onewants them it should be easy to find one for little or no cost, in which case there is not much downside to getting one. In which case it might be reasonable to have an analog scope if you pay relatively little for it. Yes, or no?And while Rigol does make nice scopes, they are pretty primitive and not a good reflection of what modern technology can do.If anything, it's a reflection of what you can get for notmuch money (which is still a lot).- Not much money or a lot, which is it?But it's still a long way from what a more advanced DSO can do.- So a more advanced DSO will do more (and will presumably cost more) than a less advanced DSO - insightful for sure.QuoteNot really. All this combo shows you is how scopes worked a quarter of a century ago, and what the modern day equivalent in the form of alow-cost low-performance DSOdoes. What it doesn't show you is what a good modern-day DSO can tell you about complex signals.- Again, if you can spend more you can get more - also very insightful.Quote"Analog buzz"? It's old technology, nothing more, nothing less. I agree thatit can be interesting to see how things have been done in the pastbut if not there's really not much to miss.- Cool, another point of agreement: it's interesting to see how things have been done in the past.For some people analog scopes seem to be the EE's vinyl equivalent, just without an industry producing overpriced kit for "enthusiasts" behind it.- That's one of the nice things about test equipment, an abundance of old but useful equipment helps keep prices relatively low.QuoteIf he really wants to learn about ancient technology or become a curator for a technology musem then he can achieve the same withoutsplashing out lots of moneyfor an antiqueanalog Tek boat anchor. There are lots ofvery good analog scopes from other manufacturers(i.e. Philips, HP, Hameg) which can be had for a lot less or even for free, and which are as good as a Tek scope.- Sometimes you say getting an analog scope is splashing out a lot of money, and sometimes it's free or nearly free, which is it?- So Tektronix made boat anchors and Philips, HP, and Hameg made very good scopes; if you say so.However,as the OP already seems to have an analog scope I don't think there's a much point in getting another museum piece.- Sometimes it's good to read before debating; my post to the OP (which is quoted in the first line of your post above) said: "My recommendation would be that if this isn't your last scope (ie, it's a journey)and you already have a decent 100MHz analog scopeyou should try an entry level digital scope(probably one of the Rigols) to see what modern technology can do for you."And the money that is not spent on antiques can be invested in a better DSO than a bottom-of-the-barrel Rigol (or Siglent or whatever), which in my opinion is much more sensible considering that nowadays DSOs are the way forward in EE land and that analog scopes are dead and buried and for sure won't have a come-back anytime soon.- Sometimes you are seemingly cost-conscious and budget constrained, and sometimes you aren't - which is it?- Exactly how much more budget will a user who has a acquired one of your free or nearly free analog scopes be able to free up toward one of your "advanced" digital scopes?

author: oldway
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2014, 05:04:16 pm
content: In Europe, I do not think it is possible to find free or very cheap CRO's.About ten years ago, industries have gone to digital and they sell very good analog oscilloscopes by whole pallets at a very low price.But those days are gone.High end analog oscilloscopes have become rare ... looks like who has one guard it as a treasure.What we find on ebay.de and other sales sites, are oscilloscopes in the range of 20 MHz and not cheap at all.

author: Howardlong
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2014, 05:13:41 pm
content: Coming to the eevblog forum is a disaster if you want a scope.Until about four months ago, when started on eevblog, I had been happily living alone with my Tek TDS 2024 200MHz 4 channel since selling my last analogue scope, a 2465B, five years ago.Since then I've added the following to the oscilloscope department:Agilent 54831D (after seeing Dave's review of the 54622D)Tek 2467B (I missed my 2465B too much)HP 1980B (yearned over this one in my spotty youth days)Rigol MSO1074Z-S (for field work)Tek TDS 460B (I only wanted the probes that I now use on the 2467B, turns out it's a good scope)(I also have a Rigol DP832 triple PSU and a Hantek HTG2002B AWG as a direct result of this forum).The two scopes I use the most are the Agilent 54831D followed by the 2467B. The poor old TDS 2024 sits all alone in the dark in its case.Therefore, be careful of asking any opinions here, it could get expensive...

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2014, 05:43:16 pm
content: Quote from: Electro Fan on December 02, 2014, 04:34:37 pmCan you please fix your quoting? Your posting looks absolutely retarded and is a pain to read.QuotePlease spend more time to read properly. "A lot" refers to the price tags of the old analog clunkers listed by the OP. "Not much money" refers to the Rigol.QuoteAnd your point is?QuoteAgain, what's your point?QuoteThat's true in general, but definitely does not apply to the scopes and their price tag listed by the OP. And that's what this is about.QuoteAre you under medication or just thick by purpose? The point is that these days analog scopes can be very often found for free or for very little money (say $50-80 or so). But the scopes listed by the OP and the listed price tags makes them pretty much overpriced.QuoteThis is what you said:"~$150-$300 for a Tek analog scope with probesplus the price of a Rigol entry scopeis about the lowest cost way to see what it's all really about. "I highlighted the important part, noticing that you seem to take a bit longer today to get the point. You did suggest that splashing out $150-£300 for a analog Tek scope is necessary to "see what it's all really about" (whatever that might be, my guess is the warm retro feeling that comes with using antiques). My point was that an there's really no need that the analog scope must be a Tek, as an analoge Philips, Hameg or HP scope would serve equally well.QuoteIn case of the OP, the amount he would have otherwise paid for one of those overpriced boat anchors, i.e. between $170 and $320.It's disappointing to see that this has apparently been such a mental challenge for you. For your sake I really hope you've just been drunk or under medication when you wrote this.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2014, 05:55:02 pm
content: Quote from: Howardlong on December 02, 2014, 05:13:41 pmThat's one of the scopes I used when I learned Electronics properly. Even back in the days they were pretty rare but very advanced beasts. I vaguely remember that the triggering wasn't as good as with Tek or Philips scopes, though.Hmm, old times.Nice collection BTW

author: Howardlong
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2014, 06:04:25 pm
content: The interesting thing about getting the 2467B back after being without one (well, a 2465B) for five years or so is that I found myself having to re-learn how the delayed sweep/trigger worked, almost as if I never really knew how it worked in the first place. Maybe I didn't!

author: Electro Fan
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2014, 06:06:15 pm
content: Quote from: oldway on December 02, 2014, 05:04:16 pmYes, I think you are right - people are increasingly guarding good vintage analog scopes as a "treasure." It seems that in the United States there are still many used analog scopes available and therefore the prices might be somewhat lower in the U.S. than in Europe and other parts of the world. Even so, the "free" analog scope that is in good condition and 100MHz or so is not growing on trees. It will take some diligent searching, patience, and luck to find a really good free scope; it's not impossible but it doesn't happen every day for every user. I think on eBay and from other sources - with diligence, patience, and luck - it is possible to find a 100MHz analog scope that is in decent condition for approximately $100-$200 (which might or might not include probes and shipping within the U.S.). It is of course possible that a decent analog scope will cost less or more than the $100-$200 range but good condition analog scopes are not given out for free on every street corner in every city in the United States. Is it worth $100-$200 (or even more for a better condition, more fully featured, higher performance) analog scope? That's up to the individual user's needs and budget, and how much time they want to spend searching. Or would it be worth saving $186 (perhaps by not buying an analog scope) to move from a Rigol $399 DS1054Z to a $585 DS1074Z? Rigol would say yes. Or maybe it makes sense to own a DS1054Z and a nice analog scope for the same price as a DS1074Z - it's up to the individual user. Or maybe it makes still more sense to save the roughly $400 plus the roughly $200 and apply the $600 to a more "advanced" DSO. Again, it's up to user preference. My belief is that for most users if you could only have one scope today and for the future it should most likely be a digital scope. At the same time, I think some people who enjoy oscilloscopes would appreciate owning a nice vintage analog scope, especially if it didn't cost too much and it remained reliable (probably the toughest part of the equation). EF

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2014, 06:08:03 pm
content: Quote from: oldway on December 02, 2014, 05:04:16 pmOf course it depends on your country (Europe is big) but in most countries there are enough places to find analog scopes free or for little money, i.e. ham radio swap meets, flea markets, or (at least in the UK) places like Gumtree.Often enough people find some old scope in the attic/basement, i.e. as a leftover from a former hobby or because someone died.Sometimes you can get them from schools who may have upgraded to newer scopes but have left the old scopes somewhere in the basement "just in case". Years ago I got several Hamegs this way.Then there are places like the EEV forum.QuoteYou'll find that most industries (aside from small business maybe) have moved to digital scopes much longer than 10 years ago.But the majority of these scopes probably moved into private hands over the years, and there are still lots of them around, often without seeing much use or completely forgotten.QuoteUnderstandable, as analog scopes haven't been "high end" for about a quarter of a century. Roughly since the 90's the high end is digital, and analog scopes were merely lower mid-range and entry level scopes.In my experience German ebay is particularly expensive (often much more so than other countries' ebay) so I wouldn't focus my search to what's available there. There are plenty of other opportunities, all it needs is putting a bit effort in.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2014, 06:46:04 pm
content: Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on December 02, 2014, 06:08:03 pmBut those oscilloscopes are usually old junk. At some point I bought an HP180 (IIRC) with a 300MHz plugin. That turned out to be a pile of junk (FUBAR) and loss of money. I have learned my lesson from that and in general don't buy equipment which is more than 15 years old.

author: oldway
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2014, 09:13:03 pm
content: Some good CRO'sPhilips PM3233: 10Mhz 2 beams long decay phosphor.Tektronix 2235A: 100MhzPhilips/Fluke PM3094 200Mhz 4 channels.BBC M6004 = Hameg HM 1005 :100MhzHameg HM605: 60MhzHameg HM1505: 150MhzHP1740A: 100MhzHP1725A: 275MhzMy workhorse is the HM605....I have...four HM605

author: Howardlong
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2014, 09:20:12 pm
content: Quote from: oldway on December 02, 2014, 09:13:03 pmYep, that's scope porn for sure.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 03, 2014, 08:49:50 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on December 02, 2014, 06:46:04 pmOf course it's old junk. I mean, what would you expect from kit that's on average a quarter of a century old? But hey, if it's really cheap/free and working, why not go for it? It could still be fun.QuoteUnderstandable (I generally do the same) but this mostly means DSOs only (with some exceptions, i.e. some Hameg analog scopes which IIRC were still built after 2000)

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 03, 2014, 08:55:12 am
content: Quote from: Electro Fan on December 02, 2014, 06:06:15 pmThat's exactly what I'm saying. Nothing wrong with getting an analog scope for fun or as a pet project if its free/cheap.But spending serious money on an analog scope for use as a primary scope is money fluushed down the drain.

author: oldway
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 03, 2014, 02:10:58 pm
content: It amuses me to see how some people act: they buy very sophisticated measuring devices (eg multimeters 6.5 digits) they do not need, and then they try to find applications for this device.I am of the Apollo generation where we did a lot with few resources.For a hobbyist, an analog oscilloscope let him do many things in analog, power electronics and troubleshooting.It even has some advantages: no aliasing, ease of use, ...For measurements of time and frequency, I use a counter.Measurements of rise and fall times does not usually require high precision and can easily be done with a calibrated analog ocilloscope.For professional use or digital electronics or any applications requiring memory, there is no discussion possible: digital oscilloscope is the only choice.

author: Howardlong
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 03, 2014, 02:51:28 pm
content: QuoteActually I don't get the 6.5 DMM thing either, but I'm willing to be educated.QuoteI think I've mentioned before, I used to debug 50+ chip digital designs with an LED+resistor and a 1k ohm per volt multimeter back in the mid to late 70s when I was a teenager. Very occasionally I'd have access to a scope, usually single trace, and a bandwidth of about a meg. With an LED, you can get a reasonably good idea if something's oscillating and the duty cycle of a digital signal by comparing it to Vcc. Same applies to using an analogue meter, you can measure duty cycle. You can also measure ballpark frequency with your ears, a crystal earpiece or piezo sounder and if necessary a divider.However, it's a darned sight easier with a scope that's for sure. The concept of being able to track down bugs with deep (or even any) memory as we enjoy now on DSOs was alien to us, but we found other ways. I remember being shown how to use a delayed trigger scope to track down software bugs on my homebrew computer when I was about 13. I thought that was so awesome, but I also knew it was way beyond my reach: such test gear was easily equivalent to a couple of years' salary!It wasn't until the 90's that I bought my first scope, a basic 20MHz Goldstar dual trace for a couple of hundred quid as I remember, but then I'd had a bit of hiatus from electronics after discovering women and booze a decade or so earlier.

author: HighVoltage
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 03, 2014, 05:54:00 pm
content: Quote from: Howardlong on December 03, 2014, 02:51:28 pmA few years ago I was also thinking the same way.But then some of my clients required some sensitive values to be certified for Six Sigma analysis and I found myself for the first time that 4 digits was not enough and used the full 6 1/2 digits for an analysis. This still did not mean much for the real world application and 4 1/2 digits would have been plenty enough, but this was the requirement of the Six Sigma reporting. So, for the first time I used all digits of my Agilent 34401A.It is a strange world. When I was studying, we still had analog voltmeters only and we could do everything that needed to be done with it.