Using mains as a defibrillator. - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: XOIIO
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2014, 06:43:27 pm
content: Something I've always sort of wondered, say someone was working on an appliance, and got a shock strong enough to stop their heart. I imagine the time it would take an ambulance to arrive with a defibrillator might be too long, or maybe you live out in the country.Basically, getting a real defibrillator will take too long, so what could you do?Well, maybe, just maybe, you could pull the cord, cut/strip the wires, plug it back in, and use it to revive them?I wonder if that sort of thing might work, if you applied the wires in the same positions they apply defibrillator paddles.Also would be interesting to hear if you think it would work with 120v or 240v, since the voltages change in different regions.

author: DmitryL
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2014, 06:48:33 pm
content: You are late with your idea, it has already been implemented:http://www.artlebedev.ru/everything/vilkus/... supplied with Darwin award certificate

author: johansen
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2014, 06:51:04 pm
content: voltages and currents are all wrong.plus, i would imagine the defibrillators have IGBTs in them to pulse the power into the patient in a controlled manner.as far as the voltages and currents.. take a look herehttp://www.aerovox.com/Products/DefibrillatorCapacitors.aspx

author: iRad
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2014, 06:51:15 pm
content: Yeah, I think I saw that in an episode of MacGyver...

author: XOIIO
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2014, 06:53:35 pm
content: Quote from: iRad on July 04, 2014, 06:51:15 pmReally? lol.Quote from: DmitryL on July 04, 2014, 06:48:33 pmMan, good gift for stupid people you want to get rid of.

author: rob77
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2014, 06:55:54 pm
content: using mains as a defibrillator is a very stupid idea. the 50/60Hz is one of the reasons why the heart stops.. you can't restart it with 50/60Hz current - you would definitely kill him that way.the best is to call the ambulance and go ahead with the standard methods and try to revive the person till the ambulance arrives or the person's heart starts to beat and he/she starts to breathe - and even in case of successful rescue - closely monitor the person till the ambulance arrives.

author: XOIIO
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2014, 06:59:43 pm
content: Quote from: rob77 on July 04, 2014, 06:55:54 pmOh man lol, when posting this I totally forgot about the resuscitation techniquesToo much electronics on the brain.Still, interesting to hear what people think on the subject.

author: Joule Thief
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2014, 07:02:17 pm
content: It's known as the "Ruby Sue" effect.

author: KJDS
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2014, 07:12:25 pm
content: Whilst you might just survive a heart pumping at 4Hz, getting it to run at 50Hz would be similar to getting your car engine to run at 100,000 rpm.

author: kolbep
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2014, 07:16:53 pm
content: He must have been watching the Mr Bean episode, where he uses jumper cables connected to a streetlights wiring, to restart some blokes heart...

author: XOIIO
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2014, 07:24:22 pm
content: Quote from: subolg123 on July 04, 2014, 07:06:23 pmQuote from: subolg123 on July 04, 2014, 07:06:23 pmI'll need to check both of those out lolQuote from: KJDS on July 04, 2014, 07:12:25 pmJust imagine, you would be superman!

author: con-f-use
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 04, 2014, 08:48:32 pm
content: Quote from: XOIIO on July 04, 2014, 06:43:27 pmA defibrillator does not magically start hearts when they stopped beating. Quiet the opposite is the case. No one will every use a defibrillator on an asystolic heart (flat line ECG). Defibrillators are used when the heart has gone out of sync, that is the different parts of the heart muscle are no longer contracting in the right rhythm relative to each other or are contracting wildly. The defibrillator then causes everything to contract simultaneously to exhaustion, thus stopping the heart. Then it is restarted with drugs or by the natural pacemaker. CPR until the ambulance comes is still the best bet.That's the most common misconception in medicine and it pains me, every time I see it on Dr. House, Greys Anatomy or what ever stupid hospital soap you watch. Also the patient won't jerk when shocked. Using mains as a defibrillator will in any case do more harm than good. It's like trying to solder chips with a welding machine or cure migraine with a brick. If you by chance have bank of capacitors charged to 1000V with a bout 200 Joule of energy in them you can try discharging them through an inductor in series with the heart. But you'd still need the right timing.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2014, 08:52:15 pm
content: Quote from: con-f-use on July 04, 2014, 08:48:32 pmSome days that doesn't seem like such a bad idea.

author: mtdoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2014, 09:14:46 pm
content: Quote from: con-f-use on July 04, 2014, 08:48:32 pmAlmost right. It brings the cardiac muscle cells back "in sync" by depolarizing (Na+ ions moving into the cells) all of them simultaneously. It does not stop the heart. Cardiac muscle cells have an "intrinsic rhythm". The heart rate is normally set by a group of cells with the fastest intrinsic rhythm and depolarization/contraction of the rest of the cardiac muscle is coordinated through a conduction system.As you say when the cardiac muscle is "out of sync" aka fibrillating - a defibrillator brings them back in sync. Heart only pauses for a second or two before spontaneously beating again- hopefully in a coordinated fashion.Drugs can't "restart the heart" but can sometimes help with the defribrillation (though not very well). Usually just the electrical defibrillation is all that is needed and when a patient is "coded" you only use the defibrillator if they have a "shockable rhythm". If there is no electrical activity at all - then chances of restoring that (with chest compressions, ventillation, drugs) is very slim...Trying to use mains to defibrillate would be a good way to kill the cardiac muscle all together by passing too much current though it.....

author: Lee697
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2014, 10:17:36 pm
content: You would definitely polish off the patient, and probably electrocute yourself trying....

author: Stonent
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2014, 10:43:41 pm
content: Quote from: iRad on July 04, 2014, 06:51:15 pmYep, I think it was at a church. He used some lamp cord and two candlestick holders.

author: XOIIO
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2014, 11:10:03 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on July 04, 2014, 08:52:15 pmMan, no kidding.

author: XOIIO
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2014, 11:12:38 pm
content: Quote from: Stonent on July 04, 2014, 10:43:41 pmOh man that sounds hilariousI bet he was touching the metal of the lamp holders too right?

author: Stonent
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2014, 04:19:13 am
content: Quote from: XOIIO on July 04, 2014, 11:12:38 pmOk it was microphone cable? Would there be current there?

author: XOIIO
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2014, 04:31:58 am
content: Quote from: Stonent on July 05, 2014, 04:19:13 amLol, alright he used rubber, but I didn't see him strip the wires. I doubt there would be much current in that cable.Also, apparently clotting works because of magnetic fields?

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2014, 04:53:14 am
content: 48V phantom power, through 2 6k8 resistors. Might be enough to barely feel through wet skin.Migraine cure is a hot shower, or an injection. Left cheek diclofenac 3ml, right cheek vitamin B complex and cortisone. Make sure the liquids are at body temperature just before injection, otherwise you can pass out from the shock. Done in 5 minutes. Otherwise there is an off label use of a certain anti psychotic drug, that is quite effective. That works in about 20 minutes.I did tell the one medic that he would not be happy when he came in with a grin. 1- I will wake up. 2- I was senior rank. 3- I know where you stay. I did not say 4- Your boss would be upset, and she was very likeable, and has a mean streak. He would be cleaning sewers for months.

author: nihilism
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2014, 05:08:28 am
content: Quote from: DmitryL on July 04, 2014, 06:48:33 pmDoes anyone know where i can get an Australian version? It would make a great gift for some people i know.

author: G7PSK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2014, 09:28:41 am
content: Mr Bean does it better.http://youtu.be/z5yZMvWFid4

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2014, 10:14:24 am
content: Quote from: XOIIO on July 05, 2014, 04:31:58 amToo be fair, that episode wasn't about a heart attack or anything you would normally use a defibrillator for.It was about some compound used to assassinate people. The compound was given to someone and then later triggered using a magnetic field turning the compound into nylon and clogs the persons heart. Macgyvers idea was to induce an opposite field to counteract the one being used to trigger the compound.

author: iRad
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2014, 12:23:56 pm
content: Seriously though, you just have to laugh...