500 MHz+ 4 channel Oscilloscope recommendation. MSO8000 any good? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: dmg
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2019, 08:21:13 am
content: I need a recommendation for a 500 MHz+ 4 channel oscilloscope below $10K. It needs to have a good memory depth, compatibility with active probes and 50 ohm termination mode. It's basically going to be used to capture and debug serial buses, check clocks and such common stuff.So far i'm looking for Rigol MSO8000 series (BW upgradeability to 2GHz is a plus) and the Siglent SDS5000. I'd prefer the rigol, which barely fits the budget, but they're too new and I'm aware of early firmware issues on Rigol scopes.Any recommendation?

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2019, 08:43:14 am
content: What country?There are many choices at that price range.- Rohde & Schwarz RTM3K-COM4 Promotion 1GHz RTM3000 series fully loaded- decent choice of active probes, but no used ones..- LeCroy might have interesting stuff - very good choice of active probes old and new. They are very compatible , old ones mostly work even on new scopes.- MSO8000 is very new. Looks like capable platform, but very expensive for what it is right now. - limited active probes at this point, no used market- SDS5000X is interesting, very good price, so far good progress on development - limited active probes at this point, no used market- Keysight MSOX3000T series + additional Picoscope and/or logic analyser..Basically, if you want to decode a lot, do that on PC based analyser. Decoding thousands of packets on a scope is no fun. That's a job for keyboard, 24" + monitors and a mouse. Decoding on a scope is done for interactive checks, and as a convenience thing, everything is already connected an you check analog and digital at the same time. Also on MSO you can check for digital/analog synchronisation, to see signals together on same timescale.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2019, 08:44:06 am
content: No chance the R&S RTM3004 fits the budget? Firmware wise that is a much safer bet. OTOH you might want to look at a used oscilloscope. For looking at clocks you'll need a scope with a low trigger jitter spec.

author: dmg
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2019, 09:06:28 am
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on October 01, 2019, 08:43:14 amThe country is Spain. I think I didn't explain myself well enough. This will be used as an everyday use oscilloscope for common everyday activity, we don't need it to be particularly good at anything, but we need something fancier than baseline scopes, with upgradeability as a bonus. The need for active probes and such is not for today but for the hopefully near future. Righ now we're served with 500 MHz passive probes. With serial bus debugging I meant mostly on the analog side except for some ocassional decoding of common low speed serial protocols.We've looked at the local used market and considered some options, but most of the equipment available is brand names such as keysight which tend to be low on memory depth, which is something we need.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2019, 09:28:16 am
content: Quote from: dmg on October 01, 2019, 09:06:28 amThank you for details..Take a look at Rohde & Schwarz RTM3K-COM4 Promotion 1GHz RTM3000 series fully loaded - In EU for a company that is arround 8500 €, no VAT.But be carefull, that scope line cannot search for event in decoded protocol data in basic protocols. Stupid. So huge memory is useless for decoding, if you want to search trough capture. You can only manually go through packets, one by one.Also if you want cheaper, and is not afraid of second tier, SDG5034X is excellent bargain for 350 MHz scope. But that is only if 350 MHz is enough. And they have limited number of active probes now. They plan to add more later but that is wait and see situation. No protocol search either.That is why I ended with MSOX3000T. It has small memory, but it can search and by using segments I can capture most of the stuff I would need.But seriously, Picoscope is best for decoding, portable too. You can easily save hundreds of sessions, and take them to the office for analysis, even without scope connected. So I use combination of MSOX3000T for interactive work (excellent for that) and Picoscope when I need 500 MS of memory or other capabilities it is good at....

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2019, 10:09:18 am
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on October 01, 2019, 09:28:16 amAFAIK you can export the decoded data and do the search / analysis on a PC. For 8500 euro buying a fully optioned RTM3004 is a no brainer.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2019, 10:36:26 am
content: Quote from: dmg on October 01, 2019, 08:21:13 amGot a SDS5054X here, whaddaya want to know ?Retail firmware is nowhere near as advanced as the current beta firmware that should be nearly ready for public release. To date any reviews are with the early firmwares even the one Dave tore down and in the 1 GHz scope shootout where the Siglent was the clear winner on bang for buck.Only the SAP1000 active probe is currently available however Siglent are in the throws of building some LeCroy adapters to enable use of their active probes.

author: Howardlong
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2019, 12:08:37 pm
content: I'll make no excuses, I'm quite the Keysight fan, almost fully optioned Keysight Used MSOX3104T is still on sale in the Keysight store $6,848: the only additional item I'd recommend adding is the DSOXLAN LAN/VGA module.https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/buying-keysight-used-my-msox3104t-fully-loaded-experiences/I have Teks and Rigols too in the lab, but it's the Keysights that get used by far the most just because of their intuitive and responsive UI.

author: KaneTW
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2019, 12:21:13 pm
content: Seconding the RTM -- if that promo was available when I bought my fully optioned RTB for ~5k, I'd have sprung for an RTM easily.If you really need UART history search, you can use SCPI or one of the other APIs to automate it. Really something they should implement, though. CAN and LIN bus search (and some others?) are supported out of the box.

author: dmg
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2019, 12:23:12 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on October 01, 2019, 10:09:18 amWe're seriously considering the RTM3004. One thing we don't like at all is the single control knob for all channels. That's a bummer... Also, there's a fully optioned Rigol MSO8000 for 9k€ which also fits the budget, with 600.000 waveforms per second update rate, 10Gsa/s and 2 GHz bandwidth.Still, we think we'd go the Rhode way, but we're not fully sure yet.Quote from: Howardlong on October 01, 2019, 12:08:37 pmKeysight would be our first choice but low memory depth kills it for our applications D:

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2019, 12:26:56 pm
content: The RTM3004 has a touch screen which makes using the buttons less necessary anyway.

author: Howardlong
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2019, 02:15:38 pm
content: Quote from: dmg on October 01, 2019, 12:23:12 pmI hear you, but I wonder what it is you're doing that needs the extra memory? In almost all scenarios I find that there are ways around it, usually around being creative with triggers and/or segmented memory. Furthermore, how much memory is enough? I've always looked on it as the law of diminishing returns, and you can never have enough.Any of the other scopes that I have around that significantly longer memory are painfully slow when it comes to decoding. and you have to spend time setting up the acquisition correctly to take advantage. If I really need an exceptionally long decode then I use a different tool, but it is an exception. One problem I find with most of the PC based tools is that at the lower end they have very limited sample rate, so having that right alternative is key.And setup is one of the problems of a scope that has very deep memory, I find I spend a lot of time fiddling with the acquisition settings even when I don't necessarily need very deep memory: this kind of acquisition setup isn't even a concept you consider on the Keysight Infiniivisions.But, as I alluded to earlier, the slick UI of the Keysight Infiniivsion series is my reason they're the go to scopes on the bench.

author: Zucca
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 01, 2019, 02:32:38 pm
content: I have a MSOX 3054a with everything included in immaculate condition to sell. PM sent.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2019, 04:20:05 pm
content: Quote from: Howardlong on October 01, 2019, 02:15:38 pmThat depends. It is often much quicker to just capture a long trace and then analyse that. With lots of memory depth you get all the details you need in one sweep. And all events are correlated so if something unexpected happens deep memory allow to examine the cause without needing to set a specific trigger. Needing to setup triggers & recapture recapture recapture recapture can get tedious. I used to own an Agilent 7104A but even with twice the memory depth compared to the MSO3000X series I regulary battled against the shallow memory. In many use case scenarios you end up with 1/4th of the memory depth it says on the badge on a Keysight scope.QuoteThe RTM3004 decodes fast. It uses a similar technique like Keysight where the decoding runs in parallel with the acquisition. I don't see myself fiddling with the acquisition settings so much on the RTM3004. Default it is at maximum memory. There is no speed penalty for that except for slower update rates at long time/div settings. I know you have some Tektronix scope as well but you should give the RTM3004 a try.

author: Howardlong
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2019, 07:43:05 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on October 01, 2019, 04:20:05 pmInteresting, I think I'd want to try it first though. As you may remember I have a 7104B which is still my go to scope, but in recent months I added an MDO4054C SA6 and one of those MSOX3104T that I mentioned up thread. I use all three, plus an MSO8104A, but keep going back to the 7104B.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2019, 07:49:02 pm
content: I think you should invest in a bigger office first

author: Howardlong
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2019, 08:08:00 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on October 01, 2019, 07:49:02 pmI’ve only just downsized into this one! I now have my stores in a separate room about four times the size of my mancave that also includes a stand up bench area, but 99% of the time is spent fondling the scopes back in my man lair.

author: Sighound36
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2019, 08:49:22 pm
content: Interesting thread I am currently looking at scopes with jitter / eye capability and minimum 1Ghz BW this rules out R&S 4000 series as well as the Tektronix 4000 series and KeysightRecently had a loan Tek MSO54 1Ghz with the jitter and eye pattern plus power analysis and I2S decoding cost is £23400+vat. All of the aforementioned brands that can have the eye etc are all £16k plus with no apps and basic probesLovely but if equipment super 15inch screen, upto 8 channels, decent fft for a scope, great multi tasking lots of trigger acquisitions etcHave been told comparing lesser brands to the exalted big brands I must somewhat loco to do soHowever the Rigol MSO7000 acquainted itself rather well, no it's not in the same league in critical areas and the screen it's as good especially with the pinch and zoom capabilities. Yes the Tek is faster but the BW was in 45ps less in total bandwidth using a Bodnar reference. Is the difference in cost worth the extra the Tek or whatever make can deliver in terms over and above your current unit. If you need the features then yes if not...Question what other options are there for 1Ghz Bw minimum plus eye pattern jitter all answers will be happily entertained

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2019, 09:11:08 pm
content: Quote from: Sighound36 on October 01, 2019, 08:49:22 pmThe Rigol MSO7000 doesn't even have a specification for the trigger jitter so scratch that for looking at eye patterns. If you need a budget solution then look at a used Agilent (54845A for example) or Lecroy whichever fits your budget. I have an Agilent 54845A myself and it can resolve down to a few tens of ps. Recently I acquired a Lecroy Wavepro 7200A which has more features to look at eye patterns and should have comparable trigger jitter performance.Also note that the risetime is not necessarily a good indication of bandwidth. Some scopes have a different roll-off so the bandwidth is .45/risetime instead of the common rule of thumb .35/risetime.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2019, 09:17:27 pm
content: Quote from: Sighound36 on October 01, 2019, 08:49:22 pmThat is what Rigol MSO8000 is all about.. But fully loaded one with 2GHz bandwitdth is 9000€.It is really new,though, and nobody really put it through the paces ..

author: tv84
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2019, 09:23:52 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on October 01, 2019, 09:11:08 pmLooking at what is achievable with the MSO5000, in terms of eye pattern, I believe the MSO7000 could achieve it if Rigol wanted.Let's wait to see what the 8000 brings.PS: Why do I talk about things that I don't know?!?

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2019, 09:28:28 pm
content: Quote from: tv84 on October 01, 2019, 09:23:52 pmSorry but without a quantitive spec you don't know how much of what you see on the screen is actual signal versus noise in the trigger system. The MSO8000 doesn't have a trigger jitter specification so as far as I'm concerned the eye patterns are nice eye candyThe minimum time bases are a good indication. The 2GHz MSO8000 bottoms out at 200ps/div. The Agilent 54845A goes down to 100ps/div and the Lecroy Wavepro 7200A even allows 20ps/div.

author: tv84
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2019, 09:28:44 pm
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on October 01, 2019, 09:17:27 pmAn official 2 GHz is well more than that. Unless you're talking about a hacked one...Edit:Rigol MSO8K package!!!! WOW! Maybe they are discouraging people from going with a Rigol MSO8064 fully hacked.

author: Sighound36
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2019, 09:37:48 pm
content: NctnicoI agree with the roll off bandwidth issues and use the .35 formula rise time of the Tek was 378ps claim is 350ps the rigol is 425ps both scores running for a solid hour before testingWhat did you pay for the wavepro 7200, I have a respectable budget for the right solution used us not an issue either.What is trigger s/n for jitter app on the lecroy? If it has a possible 20ps per div then the bandwidth must over 10Ghz surely

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2019, 09:42:01 pm
content: Quote from: Sighound36 on October 01, 2019, 09:37:48 pmI paid $400 (ex shipping) for one with some issues. But the good ones with some warranty seem to be in the $3k range. However if you have a bit more budget I'd go for a newer scope which likely doesn't like to immitate a vacuum cleaner.The jitter specs for the trigger on the Wavepro 7200A is 1ps rms with an interpolator jitter of 2.5ps typical.

author: Sighound36
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2019, 10:00:27 pm
content: QuoteRespectable figures indeed I do have a respectable budget I could manage a basic 1Ghz Tek mso54 new but feel they could better options out there used and not looking like a Hoover would be beneficialInterestingly the rigol 8000 had the same 200ps as the lecroy 7200 specs st 225ps using the 0.35 method what really dictates the final s/n jitter figures?

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2019, 10:16:13 pm
content: Quote from: Sighound36 on October 01, 2019, 10:00:27 pmThere should be a specification in the trigger section which tells the trigger jitter and interpolator resolution. Together these make up how much horizontal noise a digital oscilloscope has.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2019, 10:23:02 pm
content: Quote from: Sighound36 on October 01, 2019, 10:00:27 pmRigol MSO8000 has minum timebase of 200ps. It's rise time is better than 175ps, very good.Problem is, like Nctnico well noticed, is that there is no specification for trigger jitter. How can you measure jitter of your devices when you don't know what is jitter of the scope.Worst thing is, it might even have decent spec on that, but Rigol didn't publish it.If my Picoscope 3406D can specify trigger jitter, at 3 ps RMS typical on a scope that sample at1 GS/s, than also Rigol can publish it.They claim" 2ps resolution at 200 ps timebase" whatever that means, but no jitter spec.But achieving 10ps or better jitter trigger is not trivial...

author: 0xdeadbeef
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2019, 11:06:21 pm
content: To be fair, AFAIK R&S doesn't specify a trigger jitter for the RTM3000 or RTA4000 either. Theydodefine a 1<ps jitter for the higher end RTE and RTO scopes though.So obviously, the trigger jitter of an RTM3000 or RTA4000 is much worse than that or else they would most probably specify it.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2019, 11:49:43 pm
content: Quote from: 0xdeadbeef on October 01, 2019, 11:06:21 pmThat is very likely. I don't think the RTM3000 and RTA4000 are aimed at doing jitter analysis at the picosecond level but more towards general purpose use.

author: 0xdeadbeef
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2019, 12:02:31 am
content: But they are in a price range where you would expect a trigger jitter specification. E.g. LeCroy doesn't specify a trigger jitter for the WS3000Z but theydospecify it for the HDO4000 (≤3.5ps rms for >= 500MHz) or the Wavesurfer 510 (also (≤3.5ps rms) - where both are also general purpose scopes.Surprisingly, the Siglent SDS5000X datasheet actually specifies a trigger jitter, namely "<100ps". While maybe a bit underwhelming, at least this is an honest specification.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2019, 12:44:22 am
content: Quote from: 0xdeadbeef on October 02, 2019, 12:02:31 amYep just looked that up too and was thinking about a way to measure it using Measurement Stats.Tie a wavegen clock to the scopes clock and set Period Stats in motion.Better suggestions ?

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2019, 12:52:43 am
content: It is much easier. Just apply a fast edge. It usually helps to crank the v/div down to get a steeper edge into the trigger circuit but the signal may be outside the visible range. If you are only interested in the edges then this will provide the best trigger accuracy.Connecting an external clock doesn't do you any good because the trigger jitter is about the ability to reproduce the trigger position of a signal.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2019, 02:12:59 am
content: Here you go.100 KHz 5ns pulse with 2ns risetime, fastest I have from a SDG6022X. Siglent 1 GHz rated BNC cable.NO clock syncing, just 2 standalone instruments.Dots and Infinite persistence.

author: DrDiode
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: October 02, 2019, 05:22:23 am
content: I purchased a RIGOL DS4000 Series Oscilloscope. I ordered the 200Mhz 4 Ch. version. at the time, there was a sale and a free bandwidth upgrade and every optional decode were included. The 3db point is 530Mhz and the scope triggers well up to 1Ghz, the hardware freq. counter works up to 1Ghz also. it has 4.0 GSa/s (interweave); 2.0 Gsa/s (non-interweave), Auto, 14k pts, 140k pts, 1.4M pts, 14M pts and 140M pts Memory Depth. it has the 50 Ohm mode to. I hope this helps.

author: TurboTom
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2019, 07:01:49 am
content: Quote from: 0xdeadbeef on October 02, 2019, 12:02:31 amSome time ago, there has been a discussion on the jitter of the "Trigger Out" signal vs. the trigger event on some rigol scopes. Consensus was that these figures point to a pure software/digital trigger scheme on the lower-end models while the (back then) high end DS/MSO4000 uses a "real" analog/hardware trigger which results in very low trigger out delay and jitter. This doesn't reflect the jitter of the trigger event displayed on screen. Since a clever display algorithm can actually shift each and every "accumulated" trace to be displayed, on the time axis so its "statistical center of gravity" meets exactly the trigger point, the resulting trigger jitter can be considered to be one screen pixel. One could argue that the "real" trigger event can be somewhere between two samples of the raw ADC data stream, which is correct in case real time sampling is used. But on repetitive signals with equivalent time sampling, useful sample spacing can be much better. Which is also more or less the case when the display engine sums up a certain number of traces before they are copied to the frame buffer memory (which usually takes place at a much lower rate than at which the waveform acquisition engine fills its memory).So a specification of trigger jitter may actually be (more or less) irrelevant in case a pure digital (post-processing) trigger engine is used in a particular oscilloscope. It might make sense to specify the Trigger event -> Trigger Out signal delay and jitter in specific cases where this signal needs to be used to synchronize other test gear to the trigger event. This is probably the case only in very few situations. And this is one of the few applications, where the old Rigol DS4000 series is really good at. Otherwise, I'ld only recommend it if it's available at a real bargain and it's shortcomings are really not relevant to the particular application. Just as an oscilloscope, it's not a bad machine though.

author: Performa01
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2019, 08:28:19 am
content: Quote from: tautech on October 02, 2019, 02:12:59 amIt is quite obvious that there is no visible jitter for a digital trigger system with properly implemented trigger point interpolator and the screenshot with infinite persistence shows just that.The measurements however, including histograms, work with the raw sample data, which leads to a fairly evenly spread distribution at +/- 1 sample period around the trigger point. So while there is no visual jitter and cursor measurements would be just fine, the standard automatic measurements yield valid results only if the average in the measurement statistics is used.In case of the SDS5000X, we already have improved measurement strategies for frequency, period, transition time and cycle to cycle jitter. These can provide better resolution and accuracy than the sample period even without averaging. Any attempt to apply this concept universally for all time related measurements as well as horizontal histograms would require a lot of additional processing in many cases, especially considering the deep measurements offered by the current platform.I don't think the 100ps jitter specification is really meaningful, since I've yet to come across a case where jitter becomes actually visible, even at 200ps/div. This is clearly some worst case specification "by design" and it's a peak value and not RMS on top of that.That said, there are currently no plans to add an eye-diagram to the SDS5000X series.

author: tv84
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2019, 08:55:57 am
content: Without further derailing the thread,nctnicocould you provide some pics of the same diagram created by your several equips that are able to do it? (here or in a eye diagram specific thread) TIA

author: Ice-Tea
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2019, 10:04:13 am
content: You know you can get a used machine for a tenth of the price, right?

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2019, 11:01:20 am
content: Quote from: tautech on October 02, 2019, 02:12:59 amBut look at the same signal at 100ps/div (if possible) with infinite persistence. You'll see it will get smeared out horizontally.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2019, 11:24:16 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on October 02, 2019, 11:01:20 am500ps/div is all I've got in this 5054X, well tomorrow it might be different.I'm inclined to believe Performa01's take on this as he has the 1 GHz model and better equipment to put it through its paces than I. His comments also align with those of TurboTom and reflect what I'm seeing too.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2019, 01:35:39 pm
content: Quote from: tv84 on October 02, 2019, 08:55:57 amI got the same idea but need to find some time first.

author: tv84
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2019, 01:42:12 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on October 02, 2019, 01:35:39 pmThanks, that would be great. Serve as a comparison reference to these new coming equipments.

author: Performa01
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2019, 01:59:29 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on October 02, 2019, 11:24:16 amJust to give you an idea, I’ve dug out a very old SDS5104X screenshot.Pre-release firmware 0.7.1. No refined measurements yet.750MHz sine from a high performance synthesizer with OCXO, captured at 200ps/div and displayed in dots mode.No persistence, but this screenshot still contains some 480 triggered waveforms (acquisitions) – which should be obvious as we still see a contiguous line even though there are only 10 samples per record.The fact that the resulting trace is so thin without any outliers speaks volumes about trigger stability. One sub-division on the horizontal axis is 40ps and we would be able to spot jitter well below 10ps.At the end of the day, jitter is practically non-existent.

author: Howardlong
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2019, 03:57:52 pm
content: Depending on what's being measured, the scope may need a PLL to recover the clock for jitter measurements on modern high speed serial buses. If that is the case, make sure the scope has that level of analysis. Typically that also facilitates ways to determine where the jitter is coming from, for example if it's data correlated, or periodic.

author: Sighound36
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2019, 05:41:06 pm
content: Quote from: Howardlong on October 02, 2019, 03:57:52 pmHi HowardAgree with your above comment 100%This is the crux of the matter with the latest batch of TEK/R&S/Keysight, etc The scopes that can actually measure these parameters are all priced at £17K + the apps (the less expensive being £4K) add decent active 2Ghz+ probe if you are required to look at power analysis, then the app for this plus a possible high voltage probe plus a decent current probe (at least 1ma sensitive) it really does add up plus vat of coarse (not an issue if you are business which we are)You really need the ability to have TIE, trends with FFT, PLL options(clock recovery), at least 2nd order with cornerstone (loop bandwidth) frequency setting ability, plus histogram capability.With a real time eye diagram with histogram ability. These features are NOT in the basic measurements that come with the 5 series minimum on the big three manufacturers.Interestingly the Tek MSO54 has a limited bandwidth of 1Ghz in hardware for the 2Ghz option it has to go back service for the actual upgrade, The 6 Series is software crippled upto the 8Ghz max BW limit.The cost of these 'full analysis apps' range form £4k to £6.2KThis is without the relevant specialist probes.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2019, 06:50:39 pm
content: Quote from: Howardlong on October 02, 2019, 03:57:52 pmMSO8000 have basic jitter analysis and eye measurements.For eye it has: eye height, eye width, eye amplitude, crossing percentage, Q Factor.For jitter it has: TIE, cycle to cycle, +width to +width, -width to -widthIt also have PLL clock recovery.As I said, somebody needs to test how well it works....It is not as comprehensive as for instance LeCroy analysis packages, but it is fine for basic verifications.....

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 05, 2019, 12:56:15 am
content: Quote from: Performa01 on October 02, 2019, 08:28:19 amI have given this some thought and I think there is something odd going on here. Look at how the signal converges into a single line near the trigger threshold an then smears out. The image would suggest that the trigger jitter is zero but this can't be true because above and below the trigger point the signal starts to smear horizontally. I have not seen a similar effect on other oscilloscopes. On those I see a signal which keeps about the same width from 20% to 80% of the rise time.For example:I think Siglent's trigger interpolator takes a very small part of the signal and uses that to place it at the trigger point which creates a somewhat distorted image. It is even possible the trace smears out more horizontally than when using a larger part of the signal.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 05, 2019, 01:08:24 am
content: And the same signal (100MHz square wave) on an R&S RTM3004 (click to enlarge to full size):

author: Performa01
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 05, 2019, 03:59:26 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on October 05, 2019, 12:56:15 amThat's an interesting discussion. In order to not further derail this thread I've replied in the SDS5000X thread:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/at-last-siglent_s-sds5054x-touchscreen/msg2724608/#msg2724608

author: 0xdeadbeef
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 05, 2019, 09:28:53 am
content: IMHO this is the effect of a digital trigger system that tries to reduce the visible jitter by trying to correct the trigger location.E.g. Rohde & Schwarz discussed this in some detail as advancement for the RTO line:https://scdn.rohde-schwarz.com/ur/pws/dl_downloads/dl_application/00aps_undefined/Benefits_of_RTO_digital_trigger_system_2.pdfPersonally, I'm not 100% sure what to think of it. Obviously clever people have invested lots of effort into this and the idea seems valid, yet it feels a bit like cheating.Quote from: nctnico on October 05, 2019, 12:56:15 am

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2019, 10:13:59 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on October 05, 2019, 01:17:29 amAs an owner of Keysight scope I agree with most of things you said.Problem is that first Keysight scope that has RT eye diagramming and jitter analysis capabilities is Infiniivision 6000 series, and that one, 2.5GHz, used with no warranty in Keysight used shop is listed at over 13000 USD, with NO options whatsoever. You could haggle a little, get warranty contract, buy options, haggle a little more but I doubt you could get one with full options and warranty for less than 14000-15000 USD. I agree that is a much more polished scope with more measurements and proven quality, but it's also twice as much money.That is why people are tempted by Rigol and Siglent. It's not that people think they are superior to Keysight or LeCroy (as long as you dig a bit deeper you see they are not), but if they are good enough to do your job and cost much less then big brands, many will find them exactly that, good enough...

author: Sighound36
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2019, 06:47:22 pm
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on October 06, 2019, 10:13:59 amAbsolutely agree 100% with your observation 2N3055Four quality low jitter measurements with eye diagrams you are looking at either the following scopes from the usual suspects the Keysight 6000 series, R&S RTS2000 series or the Tetronix MSO54 or for better accuracy the MSO6000 seriesAll of the above start at £17K for a four channel 1Ghz basic model with no apps or relevant probes.The Tek MSO54 1Ghz is £17400 + 5-DJA jitt er package, £4K plus 5-PWR power analysis at another £3K and 5-SRAUDIO I2S and L-R justified for £1800 plus vat gives £31400 inc vat, yes they will talk a deal, but as with every company there is a limit. yes the vat we calm back but its a significant outlay. This doesn't include the current and active probes required for power analysis.The Tek MSO6000 is a more desirable product as the accuracy is improved over the 5000 series, but its £33k +vatSimilar sums for the other respected manufacturers.The question is do you really need that extra performance for that extra outlay???Blueskull did you twist a few arms for that pricing for the Keysight 6000 seriesHappy to have to quality used scope no problems they just do not seem to appear on the market when you require one.Thanks for all the replies so far.

author: Sighound36
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2019, 07:07:15 pm
content: Quote from: blueskull on October 06, 2019, 06:56:18 pmUnderstand nowsomeone had to win so well done!

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2019, 07:33:34 pm
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on October 06, 2019, 10:13:59 amExactly my point and people should stop comparing them with "the big boys".You can compare them with their low-cost series - but it could be somekind of silly.Because where do the low-costs come from….Rigol and siglent had revolutionizing the market for hobbyists, no question.But fishing in the river for scopes beyond 5000.....not really.I couldn´t imagine buy me a rigol 8000 even I had the money for it.Siglent instead seems to participate from their partnership with lecroy.The SDS5000 looks "adulter" to me, I think this is a improved version of the lecroy WS3000/ siglent SDS3000, which would be not so bad if all bugs were cleaned out ( a wet dream, I know)…For me the Rigol5000 is the best choice for it´s cost - If I had more money to spend, I wouldn´t buy a 7000 or 8000..

author: 0xdeadbeef
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2019, 09:25:46 pm
content: Quote from: Martin72 on October 06, 2019, 07:33:34 pmThe SDS5000 is not superior to the WS3000(Z) ineveryaspect. Beyond things like LabNotebook and WaveScan, the WS3000(Z) also doesn't have the bandwidth limitations for the mV ranges. And, well, it supports LeCroy active probes. Even if Siglent should offer adapters one day and they would be somewhat affordable, a well-established probe interface with a market for used devices is a clear benefit of the big players (especially for LeCroy as they never changed the probe interface).Regarding the MSO5000 (and other lower-end offerings): what really bothers me there (apart from bugs so-so GUI) is the lack of a probe detection. The missing of 50Ohm inputs and probe supply is already pretty bad, but removal of the probe detection is something I don't really want to live with.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2019, 09:34:51 pm
content: Quote from: 0xdeadbeef on October 06, 2019, 09:25:46 pmMaybe you missed this post a couple of weeks back:Quote from: tautech on September 16, 2019, 01:29:02 am

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2019, 09:46:18 pm
content: Quote from: 0xdeadbeef on October 06, 2019, 09:25:46 pmTo be honest, this is a thing I don´t understand from my beginning as a testfield-technician 16yrs ago.What the hell are the benefits of auto-detection ? Saving time to adjust ? This 10 seconds to set the coupling manually ?I couldn´t get it until nowadays.On the contrary, if it´s somekind of dirt between the contacts, it´s annoyingly switching forth and back....True missing indeed is the 50ohm Input.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2019, 10:18:04 pm
content: Quote from: Martin72 on October 06, 2019, 09:46:18 pmI agree with Martin, while autodetection is nice, I don't find it such a problem. I find it logical that active probes do it, but passive probes, meh..But I really think they screwed up bad by not having 50 Ohm termination in MSO5000. It's just lame.

author: 0xdeadbeef
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2019, 11:23:31 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on October 06, 2019, 09:34:51 pmNope, I kinda referred to this. The adapters are not available yet and the prices are unknown and even when they'll be available and if they won't be too expensive, this is still not the same as a native interface. And regarding differential probes from Siglent: prices and quality are unknown but it will take a while until they appear used and it's highly questionable if the marked for used probes will ever reach the current status of e.g. used LeCroy probes.Anyway, even if I'm a minority, I hate wasting time by reconfiguring attenuation when switching from BNC to 10x probe, love automatic detection of probes, never had problems with reliability and don't want to go back to the stone age of manual switching.I just don't get how saving a dollar or less per input on a 2-3k€ scope could be justified. Actually even saving money for proper probe supplies is a joke in the few k€ range. IMHO all of this is just deliberate crippling of the lower-end scopes to motivate people to buy the mid-range class.

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2019, 06:14:38 pm
content: QuoteSee also the RTB2000 series - No auto-detection, no integrated 50ohms.Only (?) siglent offers auto-detection and 50ohms in the "lower" cost range (SDS2000X series).

author: simone.pignatti
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2019, 05:54:04 am
content: For the sake of the money, today Rigol brings 4 new package promos (price without VAT):MSO8K: MSO8104 + upgrade to 2 GHz + free bundle for 8999 Euro (doesn't include logic probe)MSO7K: MSO7204 + upgrade to 500 MHz + free bundle for 4999 Euro (includes logic probe)DS7K: DS7204 + upgrade to 500 MHz + free bundle for 3999 Euro (no logic probe available, no AWG available)MSO5K: MSO5204 + upgrade to 350 MHz + free bundle for 1999 Euro (doesn't include logic probe)Feel free to contact me for more details in case is not 100% clear

author: maginnovision
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2019, 06:21:16 am
content: The 2GHz feels sort of like a lie when it's limited to 2 channels but still a pretty good deal.

author: simone.pignatti
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2019, 06:24:17 am
content: at least is well indicated: "the 2GHz bandwidth is available on a single channel using 10GSa/sec sampling rate or on two interleaving channels (1 or 2 + 3 or 4) using 5GSa/sec sampling rate per channel"In addition to the 4 x 500MHZ passive probes it also includes 2 x passive low-impedance probes (1.5 GHz) model Rigol RP6150A

author: 0xdeadbeef
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 08, 2019, 08:53:28 am
content: Asdiscussed a week ago, also the memory options are missing for the 5000 and 7000 series. Looks like the full memory is already included in the default MSO8000 offerings, so it's the same as the logic probe already being included (only) in the MSO7000 default package.

author: dmg
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2019, 06:42:17 pm
content: So we finally got the RTM3K-COM4 Rhode bundle. So far it looks like a nice instrument. I have mixed feelings about the UI though. The good thing is that there's a button for every major function and things are sensibly organized and functional. The bad thing is that the screen-size-to-knob-count ratio is a bit high for its touch interface quality. The touch interface it's a bit too much on the laggy side and it bothers me, I was expecting better. My standard for touchscreen instrument interfaces is set by a Keysight instrument I have to play with on an almost daily basis which is at least an order of magnitude better to the point where it becomes really useful.For this scope I see myself not using the touchscreen too much and rather relying on the buttons. For that, individual channel control knobs would be nicer. Also, the single horizontal knob has an RGB light ring around to mark which channel is selected each time instead of having separate, single color LED's. It has to mix colors to display yellow and pink and it doens't look great IMO.Also, there's a massive design fail as this thing doesn't have a handle yet it comes with a nice carry case for the probes... with velcro straps for handle-strapping it. D'oh.Apart from that it looks like a very capable insturment and so far we're not regretting it. Thanks for your help!