Multimeter for college and personal projects. - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: Ronny
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 12, 2015, 01:59:08 am
content: Hello everyone,I have just registered in the forum. I am a Brazilian Electronics and Telecommunication Engineering student.I have read the "NEWBIES PLEASE READ BEFORE POSTING" post, but the problem is, how am I supposed to search for what I am going to ask?I need a multimeter for college and personal projects, with the following specifications:True RMSCurrent AC/DC from 10A all the way down to uA (I really need precision here, really small currents sometimes)Voltage (I would rather have good precision in really small voltages than high voltage capabilities)Resistance (That satisfying continuity beep would be a nice add), and I also need precision here too, those <1ohm resistors drive me crazy sometimes.Diode testFrequencyNice extras to have:Capacitance with precision - The ones I have been using are terrible at measuring capacitance, to a point that I simply don't believe them anymore.Temperature.Auto range - Really would like thisReally thin probes (to read the values on an IC for example)Aligator clips that screw on the probes - Really liked this feature on a multimeter I saw.Anything else?For what I am going to use it, a bench multimeter would be better. But at the moment I need to carry it in my backpack and use it in multiple places, so it must be handheld.I am willing to pay as much as 400.00 US, but keep in mind that I am a broke college student. I did some conversions for you to have an Idea (based on minimum wage), for a Brazilian, spending one dollar is equivalent to an American spending 5.22. So yeah... seeing a Brazilian paying 400 dollars on a multimeter is the equivalent of seeing an American paying two thousand. But I saved money for that, no worries.Shipping is not an issue, my brother is going to the US this month, and he is going to buy it for me. It would be nice to have recommendations from different places, I only know amazon (no problem in buying from there though).Thank you very much! From a broke student in a broke country.

author: Wytnucls
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 12, 2015, 02:47:08 am
content: Have a look at the Agilent (Keysight) U1272A.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 12, 2015, 03:12:24 am
content: Olá Ronny,I feel your pain; I am brazilian as well and used to live stretched by the high import taxes, terrible exchange rate and inflation...In my opinion you have two options:If you want to shell out your entire budget, go for anAgilent U1272A- top-of-the-line DMM, in my opinion.However, given that capacitance and low ohm resistance are two of your careabouts, you can think strategically and get a lower cost multimeter and a LCR meter.If your brother will be in the US for a short period of time it is very risky to order from eBay, therefore I will only recommend things from Amazon.For the meter, Brymens are highly recommended and unfortunately Amazon does not carry them. Although expensive, Greenlee is their brand in the US, and an interesting one is theGreenlee DM830, which is equivalent to aBrymen BM829SA highly recommended LCR meter here in the forum is theDE-5000. Just be careful with the estimated arrival of this one, as it is imported from Japan.Regarding the probes, you can always get something likethese.As I mentioned before, the reason I am giving Amazon links is that they are very clear in the delivery/shipping conditions and are very friendly towards international credit cards - not all retailers are like that. However, always double-check the processing and delivery times, as it is easy to miss those and have the items arrive after your return trip.

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 12, 2015, 03:20:19 am
content: Actually, in Brazil, your prices are very high for multimeters. Your importation taxes are also ridiculous. In my investigations, you pay 3 to 5 times more in your country for the same multimeters elsewhere.I am the exclusive distributor for Brymen in South America, except for Brazil and Argentina. In Argentina the Brymen brand is re-branded as MiniPa. MiniPa also carries re-brands of Uni-Trend and Matech as far as I can see, but at highly inflated prices. One example:http://www.minipa.com.br/1/5/86-Minipa-Multimetros-Digitais-ET-2940If you can import without too much tax, then our friend Franky (iloveelectronics) can ship you a top of the line Brymen BM869s for US $309.00http://www.ebay.com/itm/Brymen-BM869s-Digital-Multimeter-500-000-count-Dual-Temp-AC-DC-TRMS-PC-Logging-/171272486755when he gets them in stock. You cannot go wrong with this multimeter. You cannot also go wrong with what seems to be many people's favorite Brymen, the BM257s for $135 shipped to you.http://www.ebay.com/itm/Brymen-BM257s-Digital-Multimeter-6000-count-Brand-New-Fluke-alternative-/200922627340It is much smaller and lighter for travel, but is still all most people need in a multimeter.What if you want something else other than a Brymen? Well in the US you can get many different meters. Brymens are re-branded in the US by Greenlee. I would recommend the DM380 or DM860A. You can also get Brymen made meter from Extech in the MM serieshttp://www.testequipmentdepot.com/extech/multimeters/mm570a.htmor by Amprobe as AM270, AM140, AM160http://www.testequipmentdepot.com/amprobe/multimeters/am-160-a.htm. The Amprobe AM5x0 series are also nice as well as the Amprobes XR series such as :http://www.testequipmentdepot.com/amprobe/multimeters/37xra.htmI would also recommend a Uni-Trend UT139C for $50 shipped from Franky, or from Amazon if you wish. It is a good overall multimeter with good safety and you won't cry if it gets stolen.Want to spend that $400 US? Well there are Flukes:http://www.testequipmentdepot.com/fluke/dmm/87v.htmbut the value is nowhere near as high as the Brymens, except you get a "lifetime"warranty whereas the Brymens have a 1 year warranty. I personally guarantee the Brymens I sell for 3 years in my territory.Uni-Trend has also released a new multimeter that so far has impressed me for the money. The UT171A seems to be a very good buy and includes the PC interface and program at this price. I can't completely recommend it yet as I just got one but so far I am impressed.So what would I recommend in the end?#1. Brymen BM869s for $305 to your door, plus your government taxes#2. Brymen BM257s for $135 to your door plus the government ripoff#3. Uni-Tend UT139C for $50 to your door, plus the governmentTo buy from the US:#1. Amprobe AM-160-A for around $265#1a. Fluke 87-5 for around $$360#1b. Keysight/Agilent U1272A for $380#2. Amprobe AM-270 for around $110I guess I could go on, and I really can go on, but that is a good start. I think for your use that the BM257s would be perfect.Slim probes for ICs? Well that you will need to buy separately as they all come with more general purpose probes.

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 12, 2015, 03:42:03 am
content: Quote from: Lightages on April 12, 2015, 03:20:19 amThisdoesn't look any worse than over here in commie Europe. Sure, it's painful but it's a drop in a bucket compared to a 3x or 4x markup.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 12, 2015, 03:50:28 am
content: Unless you pay someone to do all the import paperwork for Brazil's customs, where you end up benefiting from the lower (or sometimes zero) import taxes, buying direct from eBay and shipping via regular mail (or freight forwarder) means a high risk of being hit by 60% of import taxes plus 18% for local taxes. Also, the delay is ridiculously high - it can take months for the package to be freed. Obviously, this only happens if the package is caught by customs.Unfortunately, paying someone to deal with the paperwork is usually only worth when you are importing more than $1k or $1.5k (I can't recall correctly the threshold we used at our office).

author: pickle9000
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 12, 2015, 03:59:09 am
content: Holy crap!!! Makes me feel guilty complaining about a 3 week shipping time from China. We have some minor issues with shipping and taxes in Canada but that's warped.

author: Ronny
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 12, 2015, 04:58:22 am
content: In my state (Minas Gerais), its 60% federal tax + 20% state tax + 6.5% financial tax. So 100 * 1.6 * 1.2 * 1.065 = 204.48.But our minimum wage is 5 times smaller than the US's. So its like an American paying 1020 dollars.Guys, this part of the message:"Nice extras to have:Capacitance with precision - The ones I have been using are terrible at measuring capacitance, to a point that I simply don't believe them anymore.Temperature.Auto range - Really would like thisReally thin probes (to read the values on an IC for example)Aligator clips that screw on the probes - Really liked this feature on a multimeter I saw."These are extras I would like to have, but don't need to have!WytnuclsIsn't the fluke 87 better and cheaper than this one?rsjsouzaE ai cara? I'll take a look at those, that's a lot of optionsLightagesA lot of options too! Do you know if its easier to send that through the mercosul? Maybe I can buy that from south American suppliers. There is a whole university in shortage of reasonably priced equipment here!

author: Ronny
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 12, 2015, 05:17:29 am
content: Quote from: rsjsouza on April 12, 2015, 03:12:24 amHumm I have been thinking here. I think the LCR will not be good for me right now for some reasons. First, my brother will need to carry two products for me, instead of one, and he was already reluctant. Second, I will sacrifice quality in all other measurements because of capacitance. Third, I'll be carrying those around in my backpack, and it already has an HP50g on it. It will be 3 bulky things in one backpack.

author: Ronny
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 12, 2015, 05:25:55 am
content: Quote from: Lightages on April 12, 2015, 03:20:19 amThere are Minipas and Flukes in the laboratories of my university. The Minipas have some serious quality issues, I don't know if that's a problem with the specific models we use, but I don't want to put my money on them.I have been reading some stuff, and it seens to me that there's a little war going on between Fluke 87 guys and Agilent U1272A guys. What's your opinion on that?

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 12, 2015, 05:41:23 am
content: Like I said, Minipa is a mix of many different brands. If you get the Brymen re-brands then you are OK. If you get a Uni-T re-brand then it is a random chance they are OK. If you get a Mastech re-brand then in my opinion they are all crap.If you can get your brother to buy an Keysight U1272A, or Fluke 87-5, or Greenlee DM860A, or an Amprobe AM-160A, Amprobe AM-270, Amprobe AM570, Amprobe XR37a, Extech MM570, or even a UT139C I don't think you will be disappointed.I would love to see you get a BM869s or BM257s from Frankyhttp://www.ebay.com/itm/Brymen-BM257s-Digital-Multimeter-6000-count-Brand-New-Fluke-alternative-/200922627340but the importation taxes will kill you.

author: dadler
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 12, 2015, 06:02:17 am
content: Quote from: Lightages on April 12, 2015, 05:41:23 amI've bought tons of stuff from Franky, but TME.eu seems to have better pricing on the Brymen stuff. Not sure on import fees Poland->Brazil though.

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 12, 2015, 06:04:45 am
content: Anything imported into Brazil will face doubling the price, or more!

author: Smith
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 12, 2015, 06:09:41 am
content: Do these taxes count for second handed products too? I gues it would.Well, I use the Fluke 87V both for personal and for profesional use. I love the speed acuracy quality and batery life. Only drawback is the standard AC mode in current measurements.Yes it costs a lot, but I got mine second handed good as new for 70% less. I trust my 87V every day, and I have had a lot of meters that I didnt trust.

author: Ronny
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 12, 2015, 06:37:41 am
content: Quote from: Smith on April 12, 2015, 06:09:41 amIt depends, If it is a person to person transaction, normally the seller will say it is a 50 dollar gift and there will be no tax, if he doesn't there is taxes. If it is a store to person transaction the same taxes apply.

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 12, 2015, 06:41:58 am
content: Quote from: rsjsouza on April 12, 2015, 03:50:28 amAh, that 60% on small shipments does suck. That still does not explain the insane prices for local distributors though, for shipments larger than 3000$ the normal much lower import duties should apply right? Is it just humongous layers of corruption? Or does someone come bust your kneecaps if you try to sell stuff at decent margins?

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 12, 2015, 11:39:36 am
content: Quote from: Ronny on April 12, 2015, 05:17:29 amI understand why your brother is reluctant; you are probably not the only one asking for a favor, and luggage space is precious...Therefore, it is a matter of choosing the DMM: you really can't go wrong with any option I sent before - both theGreenlee DM830Aand theAgilent U1272Aare excellent meters, with some advantages for the Agilent one.Regarding the 87V versus U1272A, I would say (and others would probably agree) that it is a difference between the age of each design: the 87V is an older but proven design that brings less features to the table but it comes with a lifetime warranty (although I am not 100% sure how it applies to non-officially imported products). The Agilent has more features (30k counts, dual display, PC connectivity for datalogging, etc.) but it has three years warranty. One big plus for the Agilent is the use of common AAA batteries, while the Fluke uses a 9V battery (these are expensive in Brazil).All that said, try to convince your brother to at least bring theadditional probes, you wouldn't regret!

author: zaoka
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 12, 2015, 03:00:58 pm
content: I would stay away from Agilent U1272AMine just developed new problem; no backlight. If I hit it a bit it starts working.Aside from this, its capacitance measurement is terrible, display is dark with weak contrast, continuity buzzer is slow, it beeps every time you turn it or or awake from sleep mode.. this becomes annoying if you use it all day and every day.... buy Fluke or Hioki, dont waste your money.

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 12, 2015, 04:24:53 pm
content: There have been some complaints about the U1272A here and around the web.

author: mtdoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 12, 2015, 05:46:33 pm
content: I'd second the recomendation of the Brymen 257.If you want to go used, a "like new" Fluke 87-V can be found on eBay for $200-300. Given their proven reliability, if it's working well when you get it, it should last a lifetime, warranty or not.

author: Fsck
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 12, 2015, 06:15:14 pm
content: Quote from: mtdoc on April 12, 2015, 05:46:33 pmI triple the 257 suggestion if you're a broke college student. one of the staples for affordable performance.if you have to buy a new meter the 869 + datalog kit is a killer performer but will be a pain to get with the access + government taxes you describe.personally for a single meter, I'd go for a used 87v for the autohold with a pack or two of spare fuses but again, your situation doesn't make a used meter a favorable choice unless you can score an american collaborator

author: Ronny
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 12, 2015, 07:38:17 pm
content: I have been reading some stuff, and it seems that there is a considerable amount of problems with the Agilent U1272A, and almost none with the Fluke 87v. Dave's review also favored the Fluke, and since it's cheaper I can get some extra probes for it. But... man that dual display function is good. So hard to choose.Problem is, the way I am doing it, there will be no warranty, and if I get a messed up Agilent U1272A it's game over for me.I will take a look at the Greenlee now. Never saw that brand beforeBut if I had to buy one right now, it would be the Fluke 87V. What do you guys think? I think the Agilent U1272A features are better, I am just afraid of it breaking on me.

author: Ronny
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 12, 2015, 07:48:21 pm
content: Quote from: 3roomlab on April 12, 2015, 09:57:13 amIt is totally random. Sometimes extremely expensive stuff goes by without taxes, sometimes 10 dollars stuff will be taxed as if it was a 100 dollar item.

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 12, 2015, 09:25:47 pm
content: Greenlee is a long standing brand in the US. They are suppliers of all kinds of electrically related equipment and have a good reputation. Many of their multimeters are direct re-brands of Brymen models. The DM830 is a Brymen BM829 with a green holster and the Greenlee name printed on it. The DM860A is a Brymen BM869. With Greenlee you get a "lifetime"warranty. With Brymen direct you get 1 year.I have seen enough reports of problems with the U1272A that I would not buy one. Actually I made the choice to buy a BM869s because of its features, build quality, and price. Especially when compared to the Fluke 87V it was much cheaper and much better featured. After buying one Brymen, I purchased a BM257 and then a BM525. After having these three in my hands for a while, I was impressed enough to ask Brymen for distributor rights for South America that wasn't already covered by someone else. So my opinion on Brymen came from experience and my recommendations come from that experience before I started selling them. IMHO, they represent a great value.What do you get from the Fluke 87V that you don't get with a BM869s? You get a lifetime warranty, the Fluke reputation, 400 hour battery life, auto hold, faster peak hold, and ?. If you are not going to get the lifetime warranty in Brazil because you smuggled it in from the US, then that doesn't count anymore. I am not sure that you still couldn't have the warranty by sending it back to the US.What do you get from a BM869s over the 87V? 50,000/500,000 count, CATIV/1000V, dual temperature measurement, dual display, higher accuracy, dB measurment, and PC connection option. If you buy a Greenlee you get the lifetime warranty and all the features too.

author: mtdoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 12, 2015, 09:37:24 pm
content: I agree about the value of the Brymen's and love my 257. If i needed another high end meter the 869 would be at the top of my list. But if I knew i could only have one meter to last me the next 20 years it would be my Fluke 87-V (which i got in new condition on eBay for $200). Even without warranty, the thing the Fluke has over thr Brymens IMHO is a proven track record of multi-decade reliability. Brymen may get there but it's too soon to tell.

author: Ronny
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 13, 2015, 01:22:31 am
content: I just sent an e-mail to Fluke, checking if they can give me warranty here in Brazil. If they do I'll pick the 87V. If they don't, that Greenlee rsjsouza recommended seems really good!Are the fuses on the Greenlee specific? Or can I use the fuse of a Fluke on them? Fluke fuses are easy to find in Brazil.Edit:Damn!!! The time it will take to deliver the Greenlee, won't reach my brother in time. Is there any other place selling it?

author: daybyter
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 13, 2015, 01:37:05 am
content: Do the same taxes apply, if you use bitcoins for payment?

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 13, 2015, 02:44:43 am
content: Quote from: Ronny on April 13, 2015, 01:22:31 amRonny, the Greenlee DM860A that Lightages recommended (a better model than the DM830A I mentioned before) is also availablehere.Desipte I have never used this website, what drew my attention to it is that they accept international orders (thus are friendly with International Credit Cards) and even accept Paypal. Regarding shipping, they say they ship within 3-4 days. With UPS 2nd day air (+US$30.00) it stays well within your budget (about $350.00).BTW, the DM860A uses the same fuses as the 87V (440mA and 11A 1kV HRC). The DM830A, though, uses different fuses (1A and 10A for 600V).

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 13, 2015, 05:17:44 pm
content: I just did a quick search for the equivalent of the Brymen BM869 from MiniPa in Brazil. I found one shop with a price of R$ 1.692,00, or in USD $544.00. Crazy.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 13, 2015, 05:59:38 pm
content: Lightages, a brand-spanking-newFluke 87Vis R$3.070,00 - about US$1000.00!Greed is the most significant factor here - that is why the opportunity of having someone bringing this directly from "the source" is so precious.

author: LaurentR
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 13, 2015, 07:46:52 pm
content: Quote from: rsjsouza on April 12, 2015, 11:39:36 amI have had both (and a U1273A - the OLED version of the U1272A) at the same time. The 87V does what it does extremely well, is totally solid and has a feeling of lasting a lifetime. It's impossible not to like it. I used mine with great pleasure. The U1272A also feels very solid, has better features (including very good local and remote data logging) but has these two or three small issues that bug you, including the beep on start and the scratchy continuity. Personally, I sold my 87V, returned my U1272A and bought the U1273A. The OLED is absolutely awesome (indoor!) and it helps navigating menus and scaling numbers when doing dual-display. For me, data logging was important and I love the OLED. But I could totally see going with the 87V or the U1272A or or of the bang-for-the-buck Brymens. No loser here.On the topic of probes, try to get a set of Fluke TL71. Not expensive but very good. You can get the set of slide-on crocodiles for it (AC175). The TL175 "Twistguard" are ok, but the body is hard plastic, so they are less comfortable. The Twistguard is not all that useful. The only real advantage is that the AC175 crocodile clips screw on securely, while they only slide on the TL71.For smaller electronics, the Fluke TL910 are pricey (and not suitable for rough electrical work), but incredibly sexy (quoting Dave) and nice with different tips.If you have the money and just one shot at getting equipment from the US, Fluke makes several lead set kits including the above: TL80A/TL81A (with the TL71) and TLK287 (with the TL910).Note that Pomona (owned by Fluke and the ODM for the Fluke lead sets) sells cheaper versions of the above.I am using all my Keysight gear (HH and bench DMMs) with the Fluke leads.

author: dadler
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 13, 2015, 08:32:38 pm
content: I think the decision rests on whether you more highly value features/specifications vs. build quality/ruggedness.The Fluke 87V wins on build quality, they are extremely rugged and probably provide all of the specs you really need.The Brymens have better features/specs. The build quality is good but not as good as Fluke. I now have both the BM869 and BM257 and love both of them. My primary complaint about the Brymen meters is the function selector dial is difficult to turn. Kind of a pain, actually. The Fluke meters are like butter.The agilent handhelds are like the worst of both worlds

author: Ronny
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 14, 2015, 12:49:35 am
content: Guys, the way things are happening here... it must be the Fluke 87V.I mean, look from my point of view.I found it on amazon for 360. It will ship and arrive in time. Free shipping by the way.There are multiple places where I can calibrate or repair it in Brazil.It excels in the functions I'll use the most.Is built like a brick (I see those things being used by dozens of students every day, and no problem).Fuses available in the market.Almost sure it will work fine when I receive it.Now the Greenlee:Really good quality.More functions than the FlukeAlthough cheaper, I need to pay a very expensive shipping.No support in Brazil.Some say it comes from factory not calibrated (I can't risk having that problem).And the Agilent:Really good quality.More functions.Multiple complaints about little problems happening randomly to people (I definitely can't risk that)Support in BrazilThe most expensive option.Is there anything I am missing? I really see the Fluke as the winning option, the way I am buying this reliability is a really big thing.

author: bills
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 14, 2015, 02:01:28 am
content: I have 4 fluke meters now and have used them for the last 30yrs. I think the 87v is a good pick.I bought my 87v from craigslist for $ 120.00 it had a bad 400 ma. fuse a $6.00 repair.I always used flukes because most of my working life I was dealing with high voltage 480v,I don't know of a better meter for this propose, at flukes price range. they also work great for low voltage.regardsbill

author: bills
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 14, 2015, 02:23:17 am
content: BTW not many meters are built as tough as the flukes are, I have dropped a few from 20 feet with no damage.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 14, 2015, 03:11:49 am
content: Quote from: Ronny on April 14, 2015, 12:49:35 amNo question about your decision. The 87V is an excellent choice that will last for a lifetime, and the supplier (Amazon) has the smaller risk considering the limited window of opportunity you have. Just be sure to post some pictureshere(edit) of your new baby when it arrives!

author: LaurentR
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 14, 2015, 03:33:38 am
content: The Fluke is a fine choice. You should get it from Tequipment.net. $326 after eevblog discount and free shipping and a free case. They are a Fluke authorized distributor and highly regarded here.While you're at it, grab a set of TL71 for $25.

author: bills
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 14, 2015, 03:39:55 am
content: the other company's have a long way to go to match flukes reputation, when I have a choice I am getting a fluke.

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 14, 2015, 07:02:34 am
content: I am sure you will be very happy with a Fluke 87V.