Recommend budget oscilloscope Please - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / beginners

author: Juan
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 16, 2023, 06:20:40 am
content: Can anyone help me choose a budget priced oscilloscope for a beginner available online .

author: radiolistener
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 16, 2023, 07:08:56 am
content: Siglent SDS1000X-E series are good budget oscilloscopes. They pretty cheap and have a lot of modern features

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 16, 2023, 07:48:51 am
content: Quote from: Juan on April 16, 2023, 06:20:40 amIf you look at all the other threads about that on this forum, you will see common themes are:define what you want to use it for. A car used for trips to the local shops won't be the best choice for a car used to transport equipment to a remote site, and vice versa, and it may turn out that a bicycle is the optimum choicedefine your budgetunderstand how you can destroy the scope (and yourself) by using it incorrectlyunderstand the correct class of probes for your uses, and allow for them in your budgetunderstand the relationship between bandwidth and risetime of digital waveformsa small number of scopes are regularly recommended

author: radiolistener
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 16, 2023, 07:56:58 am
content: tggzzzI think it's too complicated for novice to read through all things related to oscilloscopes. He just asked for a help with select a starting oscilloscope which is not a crap and can be used for learning.In short, Siglent SDS1000X-E series is a good choice for that. Of course, you can find more cheap oscilloscopes, but they have much less features and much more limited usage, so I don't recommend to buy them just because they are more cheap.He can choice two channel or four channel SDS1000X-E as he wish, both are good and can cover any needs for a novice. But four channel one is a little more expensive.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 16, 2023, 08:36:28 am
content: Quote from: radiolistener on April 16, 2023, 07:56:58 am"All things"? I agree.But doing basic research is anecessary skillthat has to be learned before making forward progress (i.e. not random movement) inanytopic, technical and otherwiseDefining your uses and budgets is anecessaryfirst step that is useful in many circumstances, technical and otherwise.Not being aware that using the scope+probes incorrectly can lead to "premature disappointment". How many beginners want to use the scope to observe the mains? There are many examples on this forum!

author: Aldo22
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 16, 2023, 09:32:33 am
content: Quote from: Juan on April 16, 2023, 06:20:40 amIf you really have no idea what you need, buy aZEEWEII DSO2512Gfor ~$80 as your first oscilloscope.It's definitely good enough for beginners and because it runs on battery, it protects you from certain mistakes.It's easy to use and doesn't overwhelm you with features.If you later find that you need a "decent" benchtop device, you still have a nice handheld oscilloscope that you will continue to use.It's definitely good enough for yourbat project.I have one these as my first oscilloscope and so far I don't need anything better for my purposes.Here are some of my screenshots:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-2ch-pocket-dsosg-sigpeak-dso2512g/msg4783148/#msg4783148

author: MrAl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 16, 2023, 09:52:11 am
content: Quote from: Juan on April 16, 2023, 06:20:40 amHi,The real question is what do you want to use it for, what kind of circuits do you intend to 'begin' with.This is an important question to be answered.For example, if you just want to work on audio circuits then you can get a single channel scope for less than $40 on Amazon that has 1MS/s and bandwidth about 100kHz which actually works (i know because i got one long time ago). It runs on batteries too so no mains grounding problems.It also works for checking some things on automobiles although you need a special probe for looking at some signals like the spark plug high voltages.If you need a dual channel scope (for looking at two signals at the same time so you can compare in time) then you need to go higher in price.

author: radiolistener
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 16, 2023, 10:12:52 am
content: Quote from: Aldo22 on April 16, 2023, 09:32:33 amI don't recommend this device for novice who want to learn oscilloscope.Such device has too many limitations and by design bugs, it can easily lead to confusion. In short it often shows incorrect waveform and user needs to be familiar with normal oscilloscope and know digital signal processing issues and limitations of this cheap device in order to properly interpret results from this device and understand its weak sides. This is almost impossible for novice, so using such device by novice leads to a confusion and wrong knowledge about oscilloscopes.Actual usable bandwidth of this device is about max 1 MHz (which is definitely not enough for entry level modern hobby electronics), this device doesn't have proper anti-alias filter on the input, so it cannot work as a proper oscilloscope. It is designed as a fake oscolloscope to confuse newbies with it's cheap price and false specifications...All what this "oscilloscope" can is just to show how waveform looks like for people who never seen it, but this is not proper measurement device. And you can look how waveform looks like on a pictures in the internet. There is no need to buy such a crap for this purpose.This is why I don't recommended to buy cheaper oscilloscopes.Siglent SDS1000X-E series is the cheapest entry level oscilloscope for proper learning.All devices which are cheaper has very significantly less features, use very old outdated hardware and (as in the case with device from your link) has a lot of bugs and issues which prevents from using it in most cases.If price for Siglent SDS1000X-E is too high for you, I would suggest to buy second-hand analog oscilloscope. It will cost you cheaper that this crap from your link, but you will get a real oscilloscope which can be used for measurements, instead of cheap crap with false specifications and a lot f bugs, troubles and limited usage.There is a simple indication of such limited fake devices, if they have less than 1 GS/s sample rate, this is one of these fake "oscilloscope". But if there is 1GS/s label, don't believe, because some of chinese cheap fakes may have false specification that they have 1 GS/s, while real sample rate is about 0.1 GS/s, FNIRSI is an example of such lie...The reason for that lie is that proper 1 GS/s oscilloscope needs at least high speed ADC and high speed FPGA for signal processing and their cost will be about 100 USD, so there is no way to get proper oscilloscope with ADC, FPGA, CPU, memory, display, RF frontend and other stuff which cost in total less than 100 USD.If you're looking for deivice which cost about 100 USD or less, then I would recommend to looking for a good second-hand oscilloscope, but it should be some known brand oscilloscope, not a Chinese toy like this one from your link.

author: radiolistener
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 16, 2023, 10:49:54 am
content: Quote from: MrAl on April 16, 2023, 09:52:11 amActually I think there is no such question for novice, because proper entry level oscilloscope cover all needs which can do novice. If he want to measure something serious, he already have some knowledge and even probably have some experience with professional expensive oscilloscopes, so he already know which exactly oscilloscope he looking for.Entry level oscilloscope needs at least 1 GS/s and 100-200 MHz of proper 3-dB bandwidth. Such oscilloscope allows to analyze circuits with signals up to 1-10 MHz which is good enough for a novice.

author: Aldo22
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 16, 2023, 11:06:23 am
content: @radiolistenerI see my proposal really upsets you! That was not my intention. I'm sorry.Come on, it's $80 for a 2 channel oscilloscope.Even if it's only good for 1MHz, like you say, it's still cheap.Juan was asked in the other thread, if he has an oscilloscope to test hisbat repeller's 30KHz.That's why he asked here, I assume.I don't think he wants to pay a lot of money and delve deeper into the matter right away.The "china crap" suffices for this purpose.For the time being, the china crap is enough for me too.You can learn a lot with this device, including its limitations, and then decide with this knowledge what kind of better device you want to buy.

author: radiolistener
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 16, 2023, 11:11:10 am
content: Quote from: Aldo22 on April 16, 2023, 11:06:23 amI cannot name this Chinese toy as "oscilloscope". I know very well what is inside, how it works and all it's cons. And this is why I strongly not recommend to buy it, especially if you're novice and want to use it for learning. This is very bad choice for learning.

author: radiolistener
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 16, 2023, 11:13:35 am
content: Quote from: Aldo22 on April 16, 2023, 11:06:23 amIf you want just to discover bat repeller signal, there is no need for oscilloscope at all.You can use PC or laptop sound card which has 96 or 192 kHz sample rate recording.But if you want to measure something, you're needs a proper oscilloscope, not a Chinese toy.

author: Aldo22
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 16, 2023, 01:46:19 pm
content: @radiolistenerYou certainly have a great deal of expertise and therefore also different demands on such a device.If anything under 1 GS/s isn't an oscilloscope for you, then I respect that.But there are also hobbyists like me and probably Juan who don't have such high standards and who are maybe not yet sure whether they want to invest in a "real" oscilloscope at all.I own one of these, and while we won't call it an "oscilloscope," I use it to do what other people commonly do with oscilloscopes.For me it shows plausible signals and measuring so far.It serves the purpose for me, I'm learning quite a bit and I like this "toy".You don't necessarily need a Porsche for driving school.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 16, 2023, 02:04:58 pm
content: There are two commonly recommended scopes for entry level users: The Rigol DS1054Z (unlocked to 100 MHz bandwidth, details elsewhere) and the Siglent SDS 1104X-E (100 MHz out of the box. Both are 4 channels and this is really useful for decoding the SPI protocol. Yes, it can be done with a logic analyzer and the scope choice could be limited to 2 channels. I wouldn't do this.Both of these are good quality scopes and the Siglent is a newer release. I have the Rigol because the Siglent wasn't available. Today, I would buy the Siglent.The Siglent is $500 at Amazon:https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0771N1ZF9The Rigol is $350 at Amazon and entirely adequate:https://www.amazon.com/Rigol-DS1054Z-Digital-Oscilloscopes-Bandwidth/dp/B012938E76Scopes costing much less than these are pretty limited in capability. Grab the SDS1100 User Manual and read up on the capabilities. Repeat for the DS1054Zhttps://www.siglenteu.com/wp-content/uploads/dlm_uploads/2021/08/SDS1000X-ESDS1000X-U_UserManual_EN05B.pdfhttps://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/attachment/1579/f-050a/1/-/-/-/-/MSO1000Z%26DS1000Z_UserGuide.pdfIn any case, define your budget, define your application, discuss future needs and post back. Or, use the Search Feature.Study this epic thread in its entirety. Charlotte buys a Siglent scope at Reply 150 and then the fun startshttps://www.eevblog.com/forum/beginners/what-an-oscilloscope-recommended-for-a-woman-passionate-about-electronics/msg3100087/#msg3100087

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 16, 2023, 02:16:54 pm
content: Here's a video that Dave did and it's apparently "Part 3" so there are two others somewhere (I didn't search).https://www.eevblog.com/2023/04/06/eevblog-1536-how-to-find-a-50-oscilloscope-on-ebay-part-3/He is talking about used analog scopes and if you get a good one they do a great job. My workhorse for many years (predating the S1054Z) is a Tek 485 (350 MHz) that I bought for about $200 from eBay.You need to understand that the reason people are moving to DSOs is for a) the price compared to new analog scopes and b) the features. Analog scopes can only compete on bandwidth and I'm not sure of that. Every other feature favors the DSO - by a LOT!A modern DSO like the Siglent SDS1104X-E is just magic when compared to any analog scope. Except in terms of bandwidth. I keep my Tek 485 because it has 350 MHz of bandwidth versus just 100 MHz on my Rigol.

author: JeremyC
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 16, 2023, 02:17:08 pm
content: Quote from: Juan on April 16, 2023, 06:20:40 amJuan, in addition to @rsofer recommendation you should check the Siglent SDS1104X-U, 4 channel, 100MHz scope. In the US it cost $399.Link to product information:https://siglentna.com/digital-oscilloscopes/sds1000x-u/Dave's review:

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 16, 2023, 02:22:13 pm
content: I thought the SDS1104X-U was just a SDS 1104X-E with some features removed to reach some price point. I'm only going to buy one DSO and saving $100 but losing features doesn't seem like a good way to go - for me...https://www.amazon.com/Siglent-Technologies-SDS1104X-U-Phosphor-Oscilloscopes/dp/B08PD3WKCZGrab the datasheets and compare. Go over to the Test Equipment forum and search for the U variant. See what users think.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 16, 2023, 02:26:59 pm
content: Quote from: radiolistener on April 16, 2023, 10:49:54 amToo many beginners want to do something "silly" with a scope. That goes with them being beginners! Beginners don't have enough knowledge to understand what could be classified as "something serious".Being able to articulate what you want to use the X for (i.e. not X's characteristics) is important, whether X is a scope, boat, car, cooking pan, shelf, etc etc.Hence "what's the use case" is the reasonable and sensiblefirst questionthat needs to beanswered.

author: tatel
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 16, 2023, 02:27:36 pm
content: Having been an speleologist until I grew too old and fat, I can't understand what could the bats do that drives you nuts, unless they poop all over you? I'm very interested in what the problem could be, really. Would you mind to explain a little more about it?First logical step would be to identify the species. This would give you additional clues, and perhaps provide a solution that would work better without needing neither to learn electronics nor using ultrasonic booms. Moreover, are you sure that method would be effective? I somewhat doubt it.So, first advice would be to contact some brazilian biologist working with bats. Just google for papers published. That alone would probably get you a trove of useful knowledge. If you are just interested in getting rid of bats, and electronics is just a means to achieve that, even to pay some hundred equivalent euros to a biologist would probably be cheaper, faster and surely more effective than getting into this rabbit holeOTOH, if they are insectivore, as most bats are, it could be wise to leave them do its thing. Otherwise you could escape from the pan just to fall in the fire. I for one would rather prefer having hundreds or even thousands of insectivore bats feeding around my home than to have to deal with bloody sucking insects, even if mosquitos are just a small part from their diet.Now on the oscilloscope part: If you aren't particularly interested in electronics, and all you want is to get rid of bats, all you need is a means to check if you are producing the frequency you need or little more. As radiolistener said, it could be that the sound card in your PC would be enough. Alternatively, a DMM with frequency meter could do too. Or a Zeeweii DSO154Pro for about €40. I own one and I can assure you it will work up to >10 MHz.https://br.aliexpress.com/item/1005004972406356.html. Link to the relevant thread:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-toy()-scope-dso154pro-1ch-claimed-40mss/msg4531274/#msg4531274It also has a frequency generator that will surely work in your range. Again, if all you want is to get ride of bats, I think you need not more than that.If you are interested in electronics and are on a really low budget, I think the Zeeweii DSO2512 suggested by Aldo22 would be better than the DSO154Pro since it's dual channel and has enough bandwidth to look into PSUs, etc. I don't have one, so I can't really say how good it is. But after reading the threadhttps://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-2ch-pocket-dsosg-sigpeak-dso2512g/msg3547154/#msg3547154and my own experience with the DSO154, I would say go for it. It will be enough to increase your knowledge by a couple orders of magnitude. Then you could decide by yourself what the next oscilloscope will be, and it will remain useful as a litlle, battery-powered, portable oscilloscope you are not so afraid of wrecking it, and still able to do what it can do.The second-hand option? I wouldn't recommend it. Of course it could be that you'll be able to find a bargain, but I doubt you'll easily find anything for less than 150 euro/dollars, plus shipping (boat anchor > 7 Kg), it will do just 20MHz, perhaps 50 MHz if you are lucky, it will probably be 30 years old, and even if it's working today, you don't know it some component or even the screen will die just tomorrow. Then you could be in for a rough ride to, first, find the spare parts, then to fix it. After your posts, I don't think it would be an easy task for you right now, and is often said that to fix an oscilloscope you need another oscilloscope.If you are interested in electronics and have a budget some hundreds of euros/$, then we have the usual suspects: Entry-level 4-channel benchtop oscilloscopes: Rigol DS1054Z, GW-Instek GDS1054B and Siglent SDS1104X-E. I own the GW-Instek and am happy with it. The Siglent is the one that has more bandwidth, 100 MHz that can be upgraded to 200 MHz, while the other two are 50 MHx devices that can be upgraded to 100 MHz. So, the Siglent could be the more future-proof option in you electronics career. Just don't think its MSO option will work "fine". All these three oscilloscopes are good entry-level devices, that's why I decided to buy the cheaper GW Instek instead. You'll have to search the forum for the relevant threads and decide by yourself.Last, if you have about 1000 bucks or more to spend, look for Rigol MSO5074 or Siglent SDS2104X Plus. This Siglent is all any hobbyst will ever need, I think. I was on the brink of buying it. But finally I decided to go with an entry-level one, which made me able to buy other equipement like soldering station, desoldering gun, hot air rework station, linear PSU, AWG, logic analyzer, etc, that allow me to play more than just an oscilloscope would.Boa sorte

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 16, 2023, 02:27:55 pm
content: Quote from: Aldo22 on April 16, 2023, 01:46:19 pmYes... Yes you do! Otherwise that Dodge Charger Hellcat might get away from you.https://www.dodge.com/charger/srt.html

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 16, 2023, 02:33:12 pm
content: Quote from: rstofer on April 16, 2023, 02:16:54 pmI've just bought yetanother485, for £30. The bits that might not work after cleaning the internals should be covered by working bits in my parts mule. First actions: replace those bloody 15V decoupling tants on the 13V PSU rail, and clean everything!No, a broken scope isn't suitable for a beginner, but a cheap working analogue scope might be ideal for the OP - we don't have enough information (e.g. budget, uses, ...).

author: Juan
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2023, 01:32:00 am
content: OK thanks for the many replies . I can see now I was too vague , sorry for that failure on my part .After reading I can see that I need a scope that covers from low frequencies like say 10 khz up to 110 mhz .When I said budget that was stupid of me and I meant around $500 US not 3 grand .I don't think I like the wave display of a digital scope its way too confusing to me . A analog should be fine .I will look at the Rigol and Siglent as you advise . Obrigado eu preciso de um pouco de sorte .

author: Juan
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2023, 01:55:09 am
content: Those two scopes look very good but are out of my price range . I will do some more research and see what other models Siglent and Rigol have . Now I have the brands to look at .

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2023, 07:29:36 am
content: Quote from: Juan on April 17, 2023, 01:32:00 amWhat are you going to use it to do?

author: tatel
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2023, 08:10:02 am
content: Quote from: rstofer on April 16, 2023, 02:16:54 pmSorry, but that video is totally useless for anyone outside of the US (perhaps America, IDK). Shipping from US to Europe is incredibly expensive, sometimes $200-300 are asked for shipping, then you have to pay import taxes and VAT over item price + shipping. Perhaps US couriers are making a lot of money, but no wonder about at least one reason why the chinese are eating US porridge. UK is a little bit the same, shipping and taxes will add over €50 to item price (I mean used oscilloscope) . You'd quite probably have to pay a fee to the courier for customs paperwork, too. I would say, not less than €20. I had to pay that custom paperwork fee last February when I bought my Leo Bodnar's pulser. Usually more like €50. You can avoid that fee by doing that paperwork yourself, but it isn't that easy, particularly when couriers like FedEx, DHL and so on give you bad shipment data, like dividing your shipment to multiply your paperwork and giving you, say, a bad country code. So your shipment remains at customs for about three months and you ned a lot of luck and help from customs officers. Been there, done that. Not to mention strikes at Royal Mail that make your item remain in Heathrow for about a month. Buying from China is not just cheaper, but easier and faster. So, from some years ago, I dont buy anything from US/UK unless absolutely unavoidable, sorry. I used to do it often before that.About the prices of second-hand oscilloscopes in Europe: please do an advanced search on eBay for used "analog 20 MHz oscilloscope", choose European Union as item location, then cry or laugh at will. You'll easily find 30 years old, 20 MHz Hamegs quoted between €175-350 plus shipping, and it seems that most of the sellers can't be bothered to show traces on the screen. I was following a Hameg HM203-7, it sold for €150 + €25 shipping two days ago. I didn't even bothered to make any bid from the moment I saw there were automatic bids at work. These seem to be the usual prices right now. It's quite rare to find any better deal and almost impossible to get a working one for less than €120, delivered. €50 and even €80 are asked for non-working ones. ntcnico's usual advice to make an offer for 30% of the asked price will just make the seller laugh at your face. Look for a Toshiba 150BTB31B CRT (for a Goldstar OS-7020) and you'll find one sold as-is for $30+81 shipping, marked "SCRAP" on the screen:https://www.ebay.com/itm/401710075697?.A similar, new one will set you $85+30 back:https://www.ebay.com/itm/353379098595BTW, things have also changed on the 4-channel benchtop european DSO front. IIRC, GW Instek GDS1054B was €350+VAT and shipping when I bought mine two years ago. It's now €465 at eleshop and €473 at TME. Plus VAT and shipping. That makes Siglent SDS1104X-E cheaper right now: €429 + VAT and shipping at eleshop, €509 at amazon, delivered. Rigol DS1054Z remains the cheapest: €339+VAT and shipping at eleshop, €410 at amazon, delivered. So the Instek can't be recommended anymore, I thinkNow, if a 30 years old, 20 MHz, analog oscilloscope can be recommended for a beginner, I can't understand why a modern Zeeweii 2512 DSO can't. For a hundred bucks it can do all the 20 MHz analogs do, plus it has a function generator, plus it can store screenshots, plus it's portable, battery-powered, mains-isolated, come with two probes and, above all, is brand new. I can't understand why radiolistener shows so much comptent for it, unless it's because the fake claims it can do 120 MHz. The chinese are shooting their own feet doing that. Should they say it's a 20 MHz oscilloscope, perception could be different.So, perhaps, the usual advice to a beginner should change, particularly if that beginner has a low budget or lives in a country where import taxes are heavy. OP could do what it needs with that cheap "toy". I think it could do quite a lot of arduino projects, too. After learning with that "toy", he could decide what he wants next. Of course, if money isn't a problem, a benchtop scope would be "better". But €300-400 saved could make for some other equipement that quite probably will also be needed. Am I missing something?

author: Aldo22
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2023, 09:20:13 am
content: Quote from: tatel on April 17, 2023, 08:10:02 amApparently there are different views on what "bandwidth" means.I made a number of screenshots here (click to enlarge) so that everyone can judge for themselves.https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-2ch-pocket-dsosg-sigpeak-dso2512g/msg4783148/#msg4783148To a layman like me, it actually looks like what I would expect, considering the simple signal generator.A reasonably clear square up to approx. 10Mhz, a small difference to the sine wave up to 40Mhz and a frequency and amplitude measurement up to approx. 120Mhz.I think it should be good enough for a project in the 100KHz range.But I like to learn.I mean it's $80 including shipping.Even if you hate it, you won't lose sleep over this "investment".

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2023, 09:36:05 am
content: Quote from: rstofer on April 16, 2023, 02:22:13 pmThe X-E is in an entirely different class being a 200 MHz design whereas X-U is just 100 MHz and as such a single 1 GSa/s ADC is sufficient for its 4 channels however the 4ch X-E has dual ADC's each with 14 Mpts memory support which if adding all the other X-E features puts it in an entirely different class.We sell both yet the somewhat dearer X-E sells 3 or 4 to 1 against the X-U.A table with the 4ch X-E vs X-U differences prepared by member rf-loop is attached.

author: wasedadoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2023, 09:58:30 am
content: tatel missed that getting an analog scope shipped to you is playing roulette. Many sellers do not appreciate just how fragile a CRT is and do not pack the scope appropriately.

author: radiolistener
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2023, 10:38:42 am
content: Quote from: Aldo22 on April 16, 2023, 01:46:19 pmSiglent scope is not a Posche car analogy, Siglent is like entry level cheap car for everyday usage.Porsche analogy is a brand like oscilloscope from Lecroy or Keysight which cost is more than 100000 USDAnd ZEEWEII DSO2512G is a bicycle with square wheels and a kerosene engine. It is nice toy to play with it, but it is not suitable for a real jobHere is how "Porsche" oscilloscope looks likeThe main issue of ZEEWEII is that it doesn't have proper anti-alias filter and RF frontend, this is why I suggest to not buy it. Especially if you're novice and don't understand all pit falls of that toy. Not because it is cheap, but because it confuse it's user, has false specification and has too many pit falls which leads to a wrong understand oscilloscope for those who don't have experience with normal oscilloscope.

author: alm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2023, 11:03:13 am
content: Quote from: wasedadoc on April 17, 2023, 09:58:30 amFunny how this only became an issue recently, and not back when the military and service engineers and techs were dragging these scopes anywhere. Some analog scopes were even designed specifically they were small enough to under the seat without any padding. Somehow the analog scopes Dave bought, some from the US, also all arrived with the CRT intact.Sure, shipping damage happens, and some sellers are idiots. But comparing it to roulette where you're pretty much guaranteed to lose money on the long run is ridiculous. When shipping damage occurs, I've heard about many more damaged knobs (which are more easily replaceable) than CRTs.

author: radiolistener
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2023, 11:10:49 am
content: Quote from: alm on April 17, 2023, 11:03:13 amMy first analog oscilloscope was C1-73:It was even smaller than my current Siglent SDS1102 (it was thinner), but it was really a little bit heavier in mass than Siglent, because it was made from metalIt's current price is just about 30-40 USD

author: Aldo22
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2023, 12:02:13 pm
content: Quote from: radiolistener on April 17, 2023, 10:38:42 amYes, it's a toy. Why not?It is simply the cheapest 2 channel toy-oscilloscope on the market afaics and I like to play with it.It's perfectly clear that is nowhere near a "professional" tool.But I can do useful things with it.For example sorting out NE5532 china fakes with poor slew rates (green).I would not be able to see and measure that without a (toy-) oscilloscope, right?Sometimes a bike is better than walking.P.S. I like your C1-73!

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2023, 12:10:46 pm
content: Quote from: alm on April 17, 2023, 11:03:13 amIn the early 80s I twice took a 465 on a plane as checked baggage - with zero packing around it. They did put it in a plastic crate before putting it on the conveyor belt. I later discovered the destination was a war zone!

author: tatel
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2023, 01:52:42 pm
content: Quote from: radiolistener on April 17, 2023, 10:38:42 amWell, I would agree, DSO2512 is a bicycle. A cheap classical one powered by animal traction, without any engine. So what? It can, quite probably, do what OP wants, which isn't a real job, but an aficionado's contraption never to be marketed (and, sorry to say, it probably will not make the bats flee from their habitat). About it not having a proper antialiasing filter/RF frontend, I would also agree, even not owning the device, just because to be so cheap, I guess many corners have to be cut. But I'm not so sure about having aliasing or RF problems at the frequencies that project will have to manage. It will probably be the same with any arduino-ish project a hobbyst would probably take on for some time from the beginning. If that hypotetical guy progress at the same pace than me, that means years.I indeed found that my upgraded GDS1054B and my €40 Zeeweii DSO154 show remarkably similar things when I look at, say, ripple/noise on a cheap SMPS PSU or at a TP-Link router UART communication. Yet GDS1054B is now well above €500 delivered. I however don't really trust DSO154 at all above 10 MHz and wouldn't trust DSO2512 above 20 MHz, just because it sounds to good to be true. I would need some corroboration before trusting them so much.But to say that any beginner must start by buying an oscilloscope worth €500, sounds to me a little bit overkill. Like saying one has to use two chemical anchors to hang a painting in the living room wall. I would use the cheapest plastic one instead and reserve the real good ones to tie the rope I will be hanging on while descending an 80-meter cave pit with rotten rock in the walls. True, my first oscilloscope is one of these entry level cheap cars. But I have a weak spot for quality tools, that perhaps not everybody has. That said, I found the cheap DSO154 is better to learn the basics, just because it's simpler, and I'm not afraid to wreck it. If some day it gives me a result I can't neither understand or correlate with the "good" oscilloscope, I'll probably ask here. Then you old gurus will say to me "That's aliasing, you idiot greenhorn" and I will learn one more thing.And now... OMG! I tought DG811 was fancyful design... but looking at that Porsche-like Keysight... it really looks like a vegetable basket! It would look fine in hands of a peasant with the beret screwed to the eyebrows in the way to Tudela food market!

author: radiolistener
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2023, 02:10:15 pm
content: Quote from: tatel on April 17, 2023, 01:52:42 pmyou're needs to compare it with low end entry point Siglent SDS1000X-E series. As I said before, all what is cheaper doesn't worth attention. Not because they are cheaper, but because they are build on very outdated hardware with limited specifications and have lack of features. And this is why they are cheaper than entry point low end oscilloscopes - they just don't cost their money despite the fact that they are cheaper.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2023, 02:24:25 pm
content: Quote from: Juan on April 16, 2023, 06:20:40 amThe problem is your location--your options are sparser and more expensive. In the US, at a $500 price point the answer currently is the Siglent SDS1104X-E, although there are other options that would work as well. Check your available suppliers for Siglent, Rigol and GW Instek products and see what you can get near your budget. These are all 'digital' by the way, analog CROs will be many decades old and probably not what you want or need, unless you find some super-bargain somewhere.

author: tatel
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2023, 02:26:53 pm
content: Quote from: radiolistener on April 17, 2023, 02:10:15 pmWell, to me that means nobody could have learned anything before 200 MHz oscilloscopes existed. Are you sure about that? Anyway, I think we could agree in that we disagree. Have a fine day.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2023, 03:15:23 pm
content: My first scope was a DIY project from the ARRL Handbook circa 1958; I don't recall the bandwidth but it wasn't much. Next up was a war surplus Dumont dual channel of unknown bandwidth and for many years I used a 10 MHz Heathkit. This was during the early years of 8080 and Z80 processors. It was adequate for building complex stuff like a 8" FDD controller.I finally rewarded myself with the Tek 485 when I retired back in '03 and the DS1054Z a few years ago.You can go a long way with a low bandwidth scope. Sometimes you need to be creative about the trigger signal, maybe to the point of using additional logic to generate the trigger. An example might be the Start condition on I2C.Given financial resources, of course I am going to recommend one of the entry level scopes but if the money isn't available, almost anything is better than nothing. It can likely be sold later.

author: doru.cazan
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2023, 03:45:52 pm
content: I am a beginner. I struggled with the same question for many months. I bought SDS1104X-E even if it was too much for my budget. Used all the help on this forum to "access" higher bandwidth capabilities of the scope. It was useful many times in way I did not thought will need when I bought it (e.g. i2c debug). I am using it rarely but when I need it, it really helps so I do not regret the effort at all.This is what worked well for me but there are many variables so I am not sure if this will cover your needs.

author: Aldo22
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2023, 04:41:24 pm
content: Quote from: tatel on April 17, 2023, 01:52:42 pmYes, I think part of the debate here about the DSO2512 comes from different expectations and demands on such a cheap device.I'm totally satisfied if the DSO2512 can show a crisp square wave up to 5MHz.The range from 40 Mhz on is imo to be considered more as a frequency counter anyway.I don't expect any more details about the waveform here. But I can tune my FM radio test-transmitter with its help, so it kind of works.I'm still convinced it would be powerful enough for the bat project.That said, the DSO2512 has different bandwidths depending on the mode:2 channel/standard mode: ~48MHz2 channel/OC mode: ~60MHz1 channel/standard mode: ~96MHz1 channel/OC mode: ~120MHzThere is one more advantage of such a small device:If you don't have a separate "laboratory" but work on the kitchen table, for example, it quickly disappears into the drawer when you have to spread out the pizza dough.You hardly find handhelds second-hand.So $80 is OK for that.

author: radiolistener
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2023, 05:24:16 pm
content: Quote from: Aldo22 on April 17, 2023, 04:41:24 pmThe problem with it is that it shows some waveform which you cannot believe, because it can show you false waveform, false frequency, etc. Do you realize that? I think no, the same other novice don't realize that he cannot believe to a thing which is shown on this toy. And this is why I don't recommend to buy it.

author: jonovid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2023, 05:54:29 pm
content: Hantek. its a lunchbox design type case with its own color screen, 3 pin plug AC powered ,probe-test signal generator, its digital , has 2 channels good for up to 100MHz, can save screenshots to USB & its cheap.the downside- your be disliked by some for buying a cheap generic brand.

author: Aldo22
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2023, 06:10:10 pm
content: Quote from: radiolistener on April 17, 2023, 05:24:16 pmThanks! I am not going to develop a nuclear plant with it.We have a saying in German: "Wer misst, misst Mist" (Whoever measures, measures crap).This can happen at any level, not just with the oscilloscope.I'm relatively relaxed when it comes to my hobby projects.But thanks for your warning!

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2023, 07:24:23 pm
content: When you talk about high frequencies and fast rise times, even a 100 MHz scope is limiting. At best it will display the 9th harmonic off a 10 MHz sine wave whereas the square wave itself consists of all the odd harmonics from 10 MHz up to infinity. A lowly 10 MHz square wave contains harmonics well beyond the capability of a 100 MHz scope.Don't expect to see a very good representation of a 100 MHz square wave on a 100 MHz scope. It will usually look like a pretty nice sine wave because the higher harmonics are beyond the capability of the scope.https://www.prosoundtraining.com/2010/03/13/square-waves-and-dc-content

author: tatel
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2023, 08:33:35 pm
content: Quote from: radiolistener on April 17, 2023, 05:24:16 pmWell I checked my DSO154, which is even more of a toy than DSO2512, using my Rigol DG811 to output a 5 Vpp square waveform at different frequencies. I have to say the comptentible toy measured frequency spot on in all cases, just because the frequency measured by the toy was the very same frequency set at the AWG. Since I was outputting a square wave and seeing a square wave on toy's screen, I think what I was seeing wasn't a false waveform, either. It became a pure sinusoidal waverform at 10 MHz.https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-toy()-scope-dso154pro-1ch-claimed-40mss/msg4580608/#msg4580608So, no false frequency measurement or waveform, I would say. However, the p-p value was 5,83Vpp at 10 MHz, which isn't good but also not that bad and, BTW, is the main reason I don't trust this thing above 10 MHz. But, even being a novice, I'm pretty sure it can manage a 30 KHz project more than good enoughOf course, fungus, knowing better than me, got better results. And, of course, he couldn't resist and had to adarra jotzea tautech. You know, those family things. I'm sure you can guess how. Not that I agree with so much zirika. However, since you also look like a Siglent guy, perhaps you should check your blood pressure before looking at that thread. After that you can lecture me about how ignorant I am and how anything less that a Siglent AWG isn't worth the hassle, which surely invalidates any results we dirty noobs could get, and I will take it gladly.But the main part will be when you post the evidence supporting your assertions about those concrete Zeeweii toyscopes. That's the scientific method after all, it isn't?

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2023, 09:08:12 pm
content: Quote from: rstofer on April 17, 2023, 07:24:23 pmAs an illustration of why using harmonics (a frequency domain concept) is unhelpful to the point of being misleading with a time domain instrument, consider this...A 100MHz scope willusefullydisplay the 108th harmonic of a 1Hz digital signal. If that seems wrong, add in the constraint that it is 10ns wide. For an empirical demonstration, seehttps://entertaininghacks.wordpress.com/2018/05/08/digital-signal-integrity-and-bandwidth-signals-risetime-is-important-period-is-irrelevant/

author: Juan
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2023, 10:07:31 pm
content: Ok what I am learning is , I don't have enough money yet to buy what will be useful over more time .I was wrong about analog and now see a digital is the way to go .I don't want to keep upgrading all the time and have to learn a new oscilloscope too often it would drive me nuts and I am a slow learner . The two brands that stand out is Siglent and Rigol which is good to know but I need about $3000 .I only want to cry once . Thanks for the advice and education not that I understood it all but some useful info filtered through to the brain . I will battle along for another year without one and keep learning about the Siglent SDS2354X Plus 350 Mhz . because they show their prices and their advertising is way easier to follow than Rigol who seem to hide prices and it's unclear what accessories come as standard . Rigol is very badly presented like they say 70 to 200 mhz ? Does that mean it wont measure below 70 mhz ? Leaning towards Siglent .

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2023, 10:24:22 pm
content: But the manufacturers don't state rise time in the promotional literature nor on the unit's front panel. You and I both know the industry links the two concepts together with a simple constant of 0.35. That is, Bandwidth * Rise Time = 0.35. They invent rise time and sell bandwidth.While the concept of Rise Time carries the most information, it is the least usable for discussions when talking about scopes because they are ALL labeled in Bandwidth. In most cases, that Bandwidth number can be converted to Rise Time by dividing 0.35 by the Bandwidth.For the 100 MHz scope, the rise time should be 3.5 ns.https://www.tek.com/en/support/faqs/how-bandwidth-related-rise-time-oscilloscopesIn the discussion, we also assume that the square wave is symmetric with respect to on and off times. I have no idea what the series would look like for a signal with 10% on time. I would have to rethink stuff I learned more than 50 years ago and I'm not sure I understood it even then.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2023, 10:29:40 pm
content: Quote from: Juan on April 17, 2023, 10:07:31 pmWhen you see a range like that, it is describing different devices in a FAMILY of scopes. You can buy a 70 MHz version, probably a 100 MHz version or a 200 MHz version.The DS1054Z, for example is a 50 MHz scope but it can be unlocked to become a 100 MHz scope with no internal changes. Rigol sells both variants but most people around here buy the 50 MHz version and unlock it. That's exactly what Rigol does. They designed the feature into the scope to minimize production costs.Clearly, scopes work down to DC (0 Hz).

author: tatel
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2023, 10:32:12 pm
content: No. You could buy Siglent 2104X+ and hack it to 350 Mhz for free, quite easily. But that would be probably overkill. That performance is almost professional and many people here will never need that much.Also, all oscilloscopes are more or less the same. It would be like getting a new car. Once you are able to drive a car, it's easy to drive another, somewhat different car.Same way, you can get Siglent 1104X-E and hack it to 200 Mhz, which would be more than enough to do your project and probably all you'll need for all your hobbyst life. I was thinking the sameway you think now two years ago. I wanted to cry only once. I would have bought the entry-level siglent and never considered 2104X+, should 1104X-E have a good-working MSO option. Same for almost any oscilloscope series. Hardware is the same in all series' model's, additional capabilities are just a matter of activating options already in the software.Only enterprises that don't want problems and educational institutions don't hack their oscilloscopes.Please consider that an oscilloscope isn't all you'll need if you really want to get into electronics. For me, once I realized that even SDS2104X+ isn't enough to work at the highest level, going with an ever cheaper scope than the entry-level Siglent allowed me to buy quite a bunch of necessary or convenient thing with a budget about €1500.That said, in your actual situation, entry-level siglent SDS1104X-E will probably get you the most bang-for-the-buck, and will be enough for quite a few years to come. But only you can decide about where you want to aim and how big your budget is.Boas noites

author: tatel
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2023, 10:44:50 pm
content: One more thing: it's not difficult to destroy your scope. Please look for dave's video "How not to blow your oscilloscope" Having a device to test connected to mains and putting osciloscope probe's cocodrile clip in the wrong place... bang! A $3000 setback. If you are so loaded to consider spending 3000 bucks in just the oscilloscope, I really recommend you to get the (in)famous toyscope to begin with. I will just cost you just a hundred bucks, you'll learn with it all the really basic things unknown to you right now, and then you can spend all the money you have in a much more wise way

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2023, 11:11:33 pm
content: The point I am making is that talking in terms of a scope's performancemeasuring digital waveformsin terms of the Nth harmonic of an arbitrary fundamental frequency is fundamentally  misguided - and misleading and useless.The MHz metric is of some use when discussing (for want of a better term) basebandlinear analogue waveforms.Quote from: rstofer on April 17, 2023, 10:24:22 pmit is actually very obvious,and is shown in the reference I gave:https://entertaininghacks.wordpress.com/2018/05/08/digital-signal-integrity-and-bandwidth-signals-risetime-is-important-period-is-irrelevant/After you've read that reference, you'll agree it is obvious.(It shows the spectrum of three waveforms with the same frequency/period. One is a slow edge 50% duty cycle, another is a "digital clock" fast edge 50% duty cycle, and the final one is "digital signal" fast edge 10% duty cycle)

author: alm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 18, 2023, 01:10:50 am
content: Quote from: tatel on April 17, 2023, 10:32:12 pmI'm going to call bullshit on that statement unless you can back it up with data (and not anecdotes). Very few businesses, not just enterprises, will bother hacking a scope to save a few hundred dollars and potentially miss out on warranty and support. And many hobbyists will either not know about it or not bother. The people you see on this forum is only a very tiny fraction of the total customer base.Quote from: tatel on April 17, 2023, 10:44:50 pmWhile that can happen, it's much more likely to trip a fuse / breaker or destroy your circuit. Unless you are using the scopes for high energy circuits where your average mains powered scope has no business being without some special (high voltage differential) probes that would avoid this problem by virtue of not having a ground clip.

author: Aldo22
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 18, 2023, 08:50:08 am
content: Quote from: radiolistener on April 17, 2023, 05:24:16 pmGood day! A new day and some questions.Apparently you know the bugs and limitations of my device very well and therefore I would like to investigate the problems you mentioned with your help.Can you please tell me how to get the DSO2512G to display "false frequencies" within the specified bandwidths?I've already checked the spectrum from 1Hz to 120MHz and haven't found a "false frequency" yet.How do I do that?What do I have to do to see "false waveforms" etc.?I have already said that depending on the mode, I no longer expect an adequate display of the waveform from 10/20MHz on, that's clear.I'm really curious to explore the limits of this "crap toy".I'm fully aware that it has weaknesses. That's to be expected for $80, but I would like to see them for myself!Can you tell me how?Thank you!PS Unfortunately I don't have a reference oscilloscope, so there must be other ways.

author: radiolistener
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 18, 2023, 10:36:07 am
content: Quote from: Aldo22 on April 18, 2023, 08:50:08 amjust use frequency above ADC Fs/2, it will show you frequency which is below Fs/2 and you will not be able to determine if this is a real frequency or alias.Normal oscilloscope uses anti-alias low pass filter on the input which has a cut-off at about 20-40 % of ADC bandwidth. So, aliases will be suppressed and frequency which is 2-5 times higher than oscilloscope bandwidth will still be shown properly, but with some attenuation because the are out of oscilloscope bandwidth.That Chinese toy doesn't have such anti-alias filter, because with such a filter you will get the real bandwidth about 10 MHz, so Chinese guys just don't installed the filter in order to put label "100 MHz bandwidth" on the package. This is why waveforms of a complex signal will be distorted on this toy. And you cannot believe what it shows.Also note that it can measure frequency above Fs/2 because it doing it on FPGA by using analog comparator instead of ADC output. So, if it measure frequency up to 120 MHz it doesn't means that it shows it's waveform properly up to 120 MHz.Quote from: Aldo22 on April 18, 2023, 08:50:08 amFor this toy, I expect price about 20-30 USD max. And I will not use it as oscilloscope, just as a DIY case with display, CPU and ADC for some DIY project. But it uses Lattice and F1C100, which is not popular for DIY projects. For 80 USD you can buy a real second-hand oscilloscope.It can be used for RMS voltage measurement, but it's error will be too much and the price is multiple times higher than DMM which can do it with much better precision at much less cost. So, I don't see the real usage for that toy.Maybe for children as a toy.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 18, 2023, 11:43:43 am
content: Quote from: radiolistener on April 18, 2023, 10:36:07 amI don't know whetherthisscope can do it, but there are many sampling and/or digitising scopes that can and do display frequencies far above their sampling frequency. They presume a repetitive signal (which is frequently the case), and take one or more samples per repetition.

author: radiolistener
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 18, 2023, 11:55:49 am
content: Quote from: tggzzz on April 18, 2023, 11:43:43 amit requires phase shift for ADC clock or using long sample with sample rate which is not a multiple of the signal frequency. It's too complicated for such device class.

author: Aldo22
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 18, 2023, 12:53:13 pm
content: @radiolistenerThank you.Well, my question wasn't actually what it does outside of the specified bandwidth. I know it shows garbage there.And I also said that I don't expect an adequate representation of the signal above 10 or so MHz.That is not new to me and I can live with that.Thank you!

author: radiolistener
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 18, 2023, 01:03:18 pm
content: Quote from: Aldo22 on April 18, 2023, 12:53:13 pmThe problem here is that any signal consist of components which are out of oscilloscope bandwidth. This is why proper oscilloscope should process out of band components properly. This is required in order to properly display signal which is within oscilloscope bandwidth.When oscilloscope cannot handle out of band components properly they appears as a low frequency images and there is no way to distinguish them from a real signal which is within oscilloscope bandwidth. So you cannot believe to the picture which is shown on such invalid "oscilloscope", because it may show you false waveform and may show correct one and you will never know if waveform is false. The only way to check it is to get proper oscilloscope.This is why I don't recommend to buy such devices, especially for a newbie.

author: wasedadoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 18, 2023, 02:20:27 pm
content: Quote from: radiolistener on April 18, 2023, 01:03:18 pmAnysignal? Nonsense!

author: radiolistener
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 18, 2023, 02:45:35 pm
content: Quote from: wasedadoc on April 18, 2023, 02:20:27 pmYes, any signal has infinite continuous spectrum. This is analog world...The oscilloscope is a device which is intended to check what is going on with signal.If you see on the display and cannot say if that waveform is real or fake then such device is not oscilloscope, but a toy.

author: Aldo22
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 18, 2023, 02:46:33 pm
content: Quote from: radiolistener on April 18, 2023, 01:03:18 pmYour technical explanations are probably correct, I suppose, but I take a different view of the psychological aspects of "nebwies".For me the question wasn't "ZEEWEII or Siglent", but "ZEEWEII or nothing".Because I'm not investing $500 in something I know absolutely nothing about.The same goes for second-hand. It's the same as with cars:You need a lot of knowledge in order not to be ripped off.You can rant as much as you want, I don't regret buying the ZEEWEII because I was able to learn a lot from it and am still learning and had a lot of fun with it.Learning doesn't mean that the tools are perfect, you can learn the most from mistakes.After all, we are talking about it here because I bought a ZEEWEII.This alone is learning.

author: wasedadoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 18, 2023, 02:54:48 pm
content: Quote from: radiolistener on April 18, 2023, 02:45:35 pm1. I assume you never use Newtonian mechanics. Einstein's theories that it can give wrong answers have been experimentally proven.2. I generate a signal. You claim it has infinite continuous spectrum. Maybe, but what is the amplitude of those high frequency components? High enough to be digitised by an 8 bit ADC? I then put the signal through a really good low pass filter. That is still "any signal". Are you still claiming that the spectrum will confuse the toy scope? Even if the filter is better than the one in the "non-toy" scope?

author: tatel
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 18, 2023, 04:54:17 pm
content: Quote from: alm on April 18, 2023, 01:10:50 amSorry, man. What's the difference between "business" and "enterprise"? In my mind, any legally stablished, registered "company" is an "enterprise" whose aim is to earn money by making "business". It doesn't matter if the company has tousands of employees or is just an "autonomous" guy. If it's just a guy selling ice cream on the street or thousands of people manufacturing missiles in a big factory, it doesn't matter either. Both cases are legal "Companies" or "enterprises" doing a "business". I would say most layman people in my country would think more or less the same. Perhaps some banksters would know better. I'm afraid my knowledge of english language isn't as good as I would like.About people in this forum being only a fraction of the total customer base, I stand corrected. OP is here, though, and it looks like he will rather prefer not having to expend 3000 bucks.QuoteAgain, you are right. I myself just purchased a MicSig DP750-100 last week. But OP is clearly as lost as an octopus in a parking lot right now. He probably doesn't even imagine that thing does exist and that he will want, sooner rather than later, to do something that probe would come handy for. That's probably the first time he heards about it. We all have read a number of clearly wrong assumptions from him. In these circumstances, very big bad mistakes can be expected, I think.I will not say the name, but there is a forum member, from the US, far from being a newbie, who got his non-entry-level, quite expensive GW Instek scope destroyed. I have seen that used against him in a derogatory way in some post. I don't think that's fair, everybody can have a very bad day sometimes. Particularly a newbie that doesn't know even the most basic things (yet)Juan, this is for you:Guys, please correct me if you think I'm wrong, but it looks OP expects to be able to, say, read SDS2350X+ manual while saving the money, then buying it (and probably other equipement), then magically all will work fine.I myself found quite difficult to make progress just by reading my oscilloscope's manual, even having the oscilloscope on my bench. Just an example: triggering. GDS1054B has quite a few trigger modes. I lost quite a bunch of hours reading the manual, then trying things, then getting confused and frustrated when the expected thing didn't happened. Then turning off the oscilloscope and perhaps letting some weeks or even months pass until next try.But, after getting the DSO154 toy, things were different. No more manual as thick as a finger. Just two triggers, rise and fall. That makes easier to understand how triggering works. Then you easyly understand trigger level has to be between signal peaks or, well, it won't trigger, "of course". Then you can understand frequency can't be measured unless you have complete cycle(s) into the screen -horizontal timebase adjusts this. That's easier to realize if you have, say, half a dozen buttons than if you have two dozen buttons. Then you understand peak-to-peak voltage can't be measured unless signal peaks are into the screen -of course-. Vertical scale adjust this. Then you understand oscilloscope has 8 bit ADC, so all you have are 256 levels for all the screen height. If your vertical adjustement makes the signal be just in 1/4 of screen height, you are wasting 3/4 of your ADC's capabilities and measurement error will be bigger. No matter if you have a $40 or a $3000 oscilloscope. And so on and so on and on and on. To understand the basics, I think a very simple oscilloscope iswaybetter. Then you suddenly realize you are able to use your "good" oscilloscope that was frustrating you before. And you are able to see why some oscilloscope is better than another for some task.Now we are asking OP what to do for he wants an oscilloscope and he doesn't answer that question because he just doesn't know. He doesn't know the difference between analog and digital, I would say. Nor about the hidden dangers in testing a device that is connected to mains, or more specifically, to protective earth, nor that USB could make his device/oscilloscope also connected to protective earth, nor about isolation transformers providing safety in some way but also making GFCIs unable to protect him, etc, etc, etc. Just to mention a few things.Following OP's current thinking, he will get a $3000 oscilloscope, $3000 signal/function/arbitrary waveform generator, $1000 soldering station, perhaps $10000 spectrum analyzer... and so on and on and on... just to be sure that equipement will be able to cope with "any" task and so, having to cry just once. Even if he doesn't know right now which one that task could be. While saving that money, he will not be able to do any work, yet he expects all the necessary things he's going to read about it in the meanwhile will remain clear in his memory. Then, when the time to begin to use that equipement finally comes, he will be like a caveman that is suddenly put at the driving wheel of a 800HP Ferrari... My bet: he will probably have a crash at some corner. Don't you guys think so?So, I see OP is in for a dissapointment unless he changes his thinking. There are so many things that need to be understood before working efficiently, that OP approach can't possibly work, I think. Big problems have to be solved by dividing them in small steps. So he has a project that looks as purely analogic and low-frequency. Instead of waiting to save 3000 bucks while studying manuals, he would be better getting a cheap oscilloscope and putting hands at work right now. It's just that DSO154 isn't good enough to do useful work after he understand the basics. But DSO2512 will allow him to begin the work and to make his learning easier right now, and to look at things like PSUs at the future (by getting a probe adequate to the task, but this can be put aside until need arise). That while maintaining is "good" oscilloscope apart from mains connected devices, so safe. Being portable as an added bonus. So it will be useful now and in the future, and he will not waste his money by getting it now to begin his journey.After getting this project done, perhaps he will take on another project, this one having a LCD screen to show, say, temperature. Then he will need to handle digital communication between thermocouple/ADC, microcontroller and screen. He will have to learn how digital signals work. He will know about UART, I2C, SPI. He will know logic analyzer will decode the messages and oscilloscope will show if signals are OK. He will understand why having a 4-channel oscilloscope is a plus. Initial approach could be donee done with a $10, an $100 or an $1000 logic analyzer. Hopefully he will get a $10 one, learn how to use it, then decide if he needs a $100 or a $1000 one in the future. Or a 4-channel mixed signal oscilloscope with a very very big screen.Same for any other project/equipement. Step by step along his way. Not waiting to have all the real good equipement to do it all at once. Do you think guys this is bad advice?Juan, you must understand you seem to be in for a long trip on this train. You expect this train to have a diesel locomotive: just turn the key and the train will be going. But you are wrong, this train has a steam locomotive and to raise steam pressure (knowledge) will take some time. You can make the wait shorter and the trip easier by taking small steps and going progresively.To put your lab up, look for Dave's videos, it has a couple of them about it, one with a normal-low budget and one with a very low budget. To learn to use an oscilloscope, you can get a $500 one to start with, but you'll probably find it too complicated at first, then realize there are tasks where a mistake could make that $500 oscilloscope become scrap. Why do you think I'm looking for an old, used, analogic oscilloscope when I already got a modern, better oscilloscope, and even a $200 differential probe? To learn to use your oscilloscope, the thread were Charlotte learned rstofer mentioned is probably the best way to follow. I didn't, so my bad . And you'll have to do your homework.Well, I have to mind my own business now. Writing these posts, trying to make them logically yarn, while trying to make my english grammatically and ortographically as correct as I can, is taking too much time from me. I intend to come back to this thread now and then, but I will make my post as short as possible

author: tatel
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 18, 2023, 04:59:29 pm
content: @aldo22AFAIK, limitations of DSO2512 have ben already discussed in that thread. IIRC, it was said it's good up to 25 MHz with both channels enabled.But there is some common sense: how possibly could a $100 bucks device be better than a $500-range scope? No way, should that be true, other brands would have to at least do equally well o no se comerian un colín (they wouldn't eat even a turd)

author: Wallace Gasiewicz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 18, 2023, 05:49:19 pm
content: I hope the OP has learned something.I have had all sorts of scopes including one that did not even have a time base.With the advent of digital scopes the entire scene changed. You could get a lot more for your money. This is however not without consequences. Every digital scope has different operating characteristics and I am not sure that I can wrap my head around them. Signal acquisition is not straight forward as volts vs time anymore, but a computer generated trace that is supposed to emulate that.I used to think that an analog scope is the way to start but now with the old scopes being more and more prone to failure, and with the affordability of digital scopes. I have changed my opinion.If you buy an old analog scope, you have to deal with it's maintenance, mostly by yourself. This is not a big deal for experienced tecks but is daunting for a newcomer,Besides that, digital scopes are really the standard instruments used today and you might as well get used to them. But it does take a lot of investigation into how the digital scopes work to understand their individual quirks,Even the toy scopes have much different capabilities compared to old scopes.It would be nice for the OP to be able to see the scopes he is considering "in action" . Perhaps there is someone local he could seek out who has some experience and would let him actually put his hands on a scope to see how it functioned.From what I have read the Sigilent scopes appear to be the way to go. But I do not have one.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 18, 2023, 09:24:08 pm
content: Quote from: tatel on April 18, 2023, 04:54:17 pmEarlier I posted a link to CharlotteSwiss's epic thread where she buys a 2 channel Siglent around Reply 150 and decides to work through the User Manual feature-by-feature. There's a lot of education in that thread.https://www.eevblog.com/forum/beginners/what-an-oscilloscope-recommended-for-a-woman-passionate-about-electronics/msg3100087I never thought about using a scope to come up with the numeric value of the integral of some signal. We had a lot of fun with her new scope.

author: MrAl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 20, 2023, 12:20:35 am
content: Hi,I was going to mention Owen because i got a scope from them not too long ago.There are some quirks but i guess once you get used to it it's not too bad, if you dont need 100MHz bandwidth that is.One unusual quirk is that if you go to measure a resistor of a certain value (dont remember the exact value now but there's probably a range where this happens) the meter function flips back and forth continuously from one range to another range and never settles on just one range and so you cant get a reading unless you switch to manual range and set the right range. That's on autorange, which is how the device boots up. I thought that was very strange, but you can get around it.The other quirk i noticed just recently is the scope probe insert jacks. They are unusual because they have a plastic outer shell, unlike most other scopes. They claim it is for the user protection so they dont get some kind of shock when measuring higher voltages. It's kind of nuts really though, and not needed. The problem though is that it is harder for the probe to make contact with ground as it has to rely in the inner metal ring ONLY to make contact with the inner part of the jack, which does not always work. I found this out when i went to test something and it looked like the op amp was not working but really it was the probe that was not working. I checked it with the 1kHz test square wave on the Owen and it worked fine. It worked fine because with the 1kHz test wave the scope probe does not need a ground to work as the test wave must be connected internally to the common ground. The square wave looks normal like that, but when i go to look at the output of the op amp, it's just noise. Once i found out what was causing this, i had to carefully expand the metal ring inside the probe end to get it to make good contact with the unorthodox probe jacks. So far it's still working but it will probably happen again so i'll have to do it again at some point. I supposed i could change the jacks to the more common type.Aside from the problems, i found it useful when i was looking at I2C signals even though this scope does not handle I2C signal decoding. I could clearly see the pulses and figure out what each one was doing so i was able to troubleshoot the communications.Also for some op amp testing with signals around 1MHz or less. It can go higher, but no way will it reach 100MHz and not even 50MHz. Lucky i dont need it for thatThe price was what got me. I only had to pay around $100 USD for it so for what i need it for it works ok overall.

author: donlisms
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 20, 2023, 07:26:56 pm
content: Wow. You guys. I guess what happens is y'all start arguing with each other about your "superior" perspective in the matter, and totally forget what it's like to be beginner who needs advice. Lighten up! Focus on the issue at hand. Try to be helpful.As to a first oscilloscope, I think there are distinct advantages to finding a cheap analog scope, if possible. I know it's harder in some countries, so... maybe not an option. But all the basics are there; they've been used in some very important projects world-wide, and we got the thing done! No, don't get a broken one, but even if a little issue shows up, it could be a fun and valuable learning experience.Then... you live with it, you get a basic understanding of manipulating the two axes, the timing things, simple triggering. Then you decide you're ready for a digital scope with buttons and knobs and menus to keep you fascinated with exploring the unknown for days and days. And you have insight into the advantages of analog (and there are some) as you use the digital, as opposed to all those folks who bad-mouth them without ever having used one.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 20, 2023, 08:22:31 pm
content: Quote from: donlisms on April 20, 2023, 07:26:56 pmPlease tell exactly what those advantages might be ?

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 20, 2023, 09:22:42 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on April 20, 2023, 08:22:31 pmMany people have told you many times. Once more won't change your mind.There are permutations of old phrases that are relevant: "you can lead a DSO salesman to water, but you can't make him drink", and "show me their reward structure and I'll tell you how they will behave".

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 20, 2023, 09:24:22 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on April 20, 2023, 09:22:42 pmDo you have a crystal ball to what donlisms reply might be ?

author: donlisms
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 20, 2023, 09:51:15 pm
content: I do! Crystal ball. And an affirmation that I'm presenting a point of view to try to be helpful.Analog scopes are better at real time display, without lags and latency - the beam is NOW, not from a buffer of data collected a little while ago. Thay means they can do X-Y mode nicely, which is a fun and useful thing and can lead to insights. The traces are always (always) prettier; they're smooth and beautiful; a beam of electrons smacking photons around is a much more elegant solution than yet another splattering of pixels (opinion). They have a simpler user interface model. I would speculate that they are more loved by their owners. They don't have software bugs. They usually don't have quite so many bad user interface decisions, although... there are some here and there if you venture fat from Tektronix.They're just nice. You learn to use them. You don't have to post so many "How do I ..." questions. And if you're in a lucky place in the world, they're usually way cheaper.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 20, 2023, 10:11:03 pm
content: donlisms, I've come from that place and never going back !So do you suggest we go back to the analogue world of communications or stay with modern digital and for scopes all the benefits and reliability they offer over a CRO ?I've fixed many CRO's, more than enough to know the always challenged parts of their design and common failure points few if any are present in the modern DSO no none are CCFL backlit.Display latency is not an issue with the modern devices from the main manufacturers although older DSO's lacking processing power may have influenced your opinions on this matter.We need consider when offering advice to the scope newbie now far they might go into the EE rabbit hole and at least suggest a device that can go with them a some ways and at least be near 100% reliable.In 10 years selling DSO's all AFAIK are still working however I doubt if the few CRO's passed over this bench still are which included several respected models.As far as chucking down a few 100 $ for an old CRO as opposed to a warranteed DSO it's poor advice to offer a scope newbie in this day and age with the wonderful models available under $500.Even a $300 DSO feature set leaves a CRO in the dust.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 20, 2023, 10:12:04 pm
content: Analog scopes work! We went to the Moon back in '69 with analog scopes but I doubt that we would do it again.As I said earlier, I built my first scope from the ARRL Handbook back around '58 so let's just assume I have been using analog scopes for about 60 years. I currently have a Tek 485. I use it as a basic 2 channel scope and if that is all I want or need, it's good enough. But these days, that simply isn't enough.There is no way in the world I would pick the 485 over the Rigol DS1054Z which I also have. The ONLY advantage of the 485 is bandwidth (350 MHz vs 100 MHz) but every other feature favors the Rigol. Channels, decoding, measurements, calculations (integral of a function) all favor the Rigol.Yes, knobs are easier to use than menus but there would need to be a metric buttload of knobs to provide the same features. And who cares about the menu UI when it is used a VERY SMALL percentage of the total on-scope time? What? 1 minute on the menus and 59 minutes on the screen? The menu UI just doesn't matter. Nor does the idea of channel selection versus discrete channel knobs. Once set, the scope runs for a long time and the settings can be saved to a named file. Try that with plastic knobs!In the end, all we can do is present options. It isn't our decision to make and there is no reason to get invested in the outcome of the discussion. We have all made our decisions and it's time for the OP to make his. It always comes down to performance versus price and performance versus need. The gotcha is that 'need' is a moving target.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 20, 2023, 10:30:42 pm
content: Quote from: rstofer on April 20, 2023, 10:12:04 pmI don't think the time to twiddle a control is the best metric.One disadvantage of digitising scopes is their sheer complexity, which manifests itself in several obvious ways:beginners often don't realise that what they are seeing is determined by something buried three levels deep in a menuing systemthe endless discussions on this forum and elsewhere about the subtleties of sampling theory, and its effect on sampling practice, and on how the implementation in a particular scope affects what measurable and what is visibleHence the time to learn how to understand and use a digitising scopeeffectivelyshould not be neglected.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 20, 2023, 10:34:15 pm
content: I find XY mode on my DS1054Z to be useful for displaying the output of my analog computers.How many of the measurements shown on page 6-43 (pdf page 155) can the analog scope do? How about none or damn few. It may do the cursor measurements but I haven't seen one yet that will calculate dY/dX. Not really something I use every day (if ever) but I have it when I want it.How about integrating a waveform as shown on page 6-15 (pdf page 127) How's that analog scope measuring up now?Just skimming through the User Manual, you get a sense that analog scopes are just left behind. They can't do any of the advanced measurements (or damn few).https://assets.testequity.com/te1/Documents/pdf/rigol/Rigol-DS1054Z-Manual.pdf

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 20, 2023, 10:48:15 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on April 20, 2023, 10:30:42 pmSounds a lot like the smoke and mirrors used in Equivalent Time Sampling where they get bandwidth only if the signal is repetitive.There's a learning curve no matter what. The good thing is that we have teaching resources like YouTube. Googel is the repository for all human knowledge If a person needs to learn something just ask Google. If a wrong answer is OK, ask ChatGPT - it'll make up something.There is always theAutobutton. It will get something on the screen and it's usually pretty close to ideal. Perhaps a small change to time/division.Here's the first video I came across, there are many others including some reviews of the DS1054Z by Davehttps://youtu.be/uU3FhH7_MWo

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 20, 2023, 11:01:13 pm
content: Quote from: rstofer on April 20, 2023, 10:48:15 pmIt isn't "smoke and mirrors", except perhaps to those that are uncomfortable with sampling theoryMost signals are (or can be made) repetitive, bandwidth is a rather(!) important aspect of analogue signals.Waveforms of digital signals arealwayspushing at the boundaries of their analogue representations.ETS (and similar) is - and always will be - a very useful and important technique.too many people can't describe how a compiler implements a subroutine call in generic pseudocode assembler instructions. There's a good argument they shouldn't be allowed to have an IDE and keyboard. Similarly, those that don't understand sampling theory shouldn't be let loose with a digitising scope and soldering iron.

author: tatel
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 20, 2023, 11:16:32 pm
content: I don't own any analog scope so I'm not going to enter in any argument. I'll just address the statemets you made, from my point of view.It could be that I'll buy an analog scope if opportunity arises, then I could have something more to say. It would set me back like €150+ shipping. So I'll probably wait to see how it goes with aldo22 and radiolistener in the DSO2512 thread before pulling the trigger. I still think DSO2512 should be good up to 20 MHz. If so, bye bye analogs. If not, we will see.For now, I don't see the reasons mentioned holding so much water. I see that you like analog scopes. You think they are beautiful and more elegant.My GDS1054B has a fast display. I only notice lag when I'm moving vertical-horizontal position: While turning the encoder it freezes, but it updates as soon as you leave it alone. Perhaps sometimes a fraction of second while doing other things. Not a problem for me, but it's true that I choosed it before Rigol DS1054Z precisely because it was told GDS1054B UI is quite agile.Beautiful traces: plese do a painting of them if you like; to me, it's enough they convey the needed info. I do like to have measurements, cursors and the ability to store.I have read a thread where a software bug in my scope is described, but it so far hasn't bited me. IIRC it's a thing an analog scope couldn't do. I can't speak about XY mode because I simply have still to use it. But I would expect it will work as fast as VT mode.About simplicity, did you look at the thread "Oscilloscope training class (long)". It's about analog scopes. If they are so simple why do training classes need to be long? IIRC the texts available speak about frustration, etc.AnalogDigital scopes can do much more than analog ones, so of course analogs are simpler. But you are comparing a Cessna with an Eurofighter here.About being in a lucky place of the world, well. I'm going to say all english-speaking, five-eyes nation are part of that lucky place. Not really, but numbers are so clear that it doesn't matter. It turns out those 5 countries have a total population about 470 million. World population is 8 billion. Do you realize 85% of humanity doesn't live in that lucky place of the world?That includes OP.In short: you are just doing the very same you blamed on to others: speaking about your better way to do things. You do it based on "how green my valley was". Little more.I think this is also just noise wrt OP

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 20, 2023, 11:22:53 pm
content: For those who want an introduction to Equivalent Time Sampling (ETS), here's a couple of articles. Note that ETS applies ONLY to repetitive signals and is essentially useless for random digital signals, the very stuff I play with. Apparently, the DS1054Z lacks this feature but some DSOs do have it.https://www.picotech.com/library/oscilloscopes/equivalent-time-samplinghttps://www.tek.com/en/documents/application-note/real-time-versus-equivalent-time-samplingIt would be pretty lonely around here if only experts in sampling theory could apply. There would be a lot fewer 'help me buy an entry level scope' threads.

author: baldurn
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 20, 2023, 11:47:03 pm
content: Juan my advice is to get the Siglent SDS1104X-E and upgrade it for free to 200 MHz (hack it). It is within your budget and it will serve you well.Don't delay to save for the much more expensive scope. You can always sell the SDS1104X-E and upgrade later. The UI is not too different and you will not be confused by the upgrade in the slightest. Scopes hold their value very well, so you can expect to recover a large portion of the cost for the SDS1104X-E should you decide to upgrade. When the time comes for an upgrade, you might want something completely different. Also scopes are still seeing a lot of development and so it is likely there are better options available in the future.Don't go for the cheaper scopes. That includes the cheaper Siglents or the 2 port variant. It is not worth it. You want a tool that works correctly and does not annoy you needlessly while trying to learn or doing a project. You want 4 ports because the price difference is very small and why get blocked the moment you need it?Do remember that you also want to buy a lot of other stuff. You can buy as you go along and find the need. This is another reason not to delay for the expensive scope. You are going to need that cash. For example you could get the Siglent SDG1032X signal generator that works together with the SDS1104X-E for Bode plots. Other items include a lab power supply, solder station, multimeter, components for your projects and 50 more you don't even realize yet. Doesn't need to be very expensive, just don't think it can all go into one device.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 20, 2023, 11:57:40 pm
content: And let's not overlookSINGLEtriggering mode. Only very high end storage CROs have this feature but every DSO I have seen has it.Single shot triggering may be the most useful feature of the DSO. The scope triggers once when the trigger condition is met and leaves the trace on the screen for review. This is amazingly useful.I claim to have bought my Rigol for the decoding of SPI but if decoding didn't exist, I would have bought it for single shot triggering.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 21, 2023, 12:22:56 am
content: I will presume you are guessing about my attitudes and background.Quote from: tatel on April 20, 2023, 11:16:32 pmCompletely false, in every respect.Analogue scopes are a tool, with strengths and weaknesses. So are digitising scopes.QuoteWhat I want is a tool that shows the necessary information clearly simply and unambiguously.Measurements are a nice feature (cf benefit), and digital cameras are good enough for many purposes (cf Polaroid).QuoteI am comparing the two classes of scopes doing the same tasks that both can do.To effectively use a digitizing scope you need to understand the same things as you need to use effectively use an analogue scopeplus other details related to sampling. Beginners naturally think in terms of continuous waveforms, not sampled waveforms. Demonstrably many people, including nominally experienced people, have difficulty understanding how and why sampling does and doesn't work.Analogue scopes have all controls visible on the front panel. Digitizing scopes have far more controls, and many important ones are hidden in a menu system.It is easier and faster to teach a beginner to use an analogue scope than a digitizing scope; they don't need to understand so much maths nor so many configuration parameters.N.B. Pushing a click and drool autosetup button does not constitute knowing how to effectively use a digitizing scope, any more than knowing how to press autocomplete button in an IDE constitutes someone knowing how to use a programming language!QuoteWhat on earth are you blathering about?

author: baldurn
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 21, 2023, 12:28:42 am
content: Quote from: Aldo22 on April 18, 2023, 08:50:08 amAssuming it has 100 MS/s with 2 channels active we have f/2 = 50 MHz. A square wave will have a third harmonic with 1/3 amplitude. A square wave with a frequency of at least 50/3 = 17 MHz will have a mirror frequency overlay at 1/3 amplitude. Will probably make the waveform look very funky :-)Yes I know you just said not to use it above 10 MHz. But you asked "how" and that is how. Will happen too below 10 MHz but it would only be the 7th harmonic at 1/7 amplitude, so probably not very visible.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 21, 2023, 12:30:29 am
content: Quote from: rstofer on April 20, 2023, 11:57:40 pmYes, single shot capture always was the single major advantage that digitizing scopes had over analogue scopes. Analogue storage scopes were tolerated rather than liked.That was true whether they were CROs or used a different output technology.My understanding (possibly incorrect) is that some of the cheap digitizing scopes like the Rigol only process (Decode, FFT) the pixels on the screen - not all the data they have captured. That's a major limitation and, in my books, makes them a toy in that respect.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 21, 2023, 12:32:46 am
content: Quote from: baldurn on April 21, 2023, 12:28:42 amThat's highly misleading.For a demonstration of why, seehttps://entertaininghacks.wordpress.com/2018/05/08/digital-signal-integrity-and-bandwidth-signals-risetime-is-important-period-is-irrelevant/

author: tatel
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 21, 2023, 01:21:06 am
content: Quote from: tggzzz on April 21, 2023, 12:22:56 amThat wasn't addressed at you...

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 21, 2023, 08:10:48 am
content: Quote from: tatel on April 21, 2023, 01:21:06 amCan I suggest you use the "quote" link at the top right of all posts.Care to let us in on whowereyou responding to?

author: Juan
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 21, 2023, 10:01:25 am
content: Quote from: tatel on April 18, 2023, 04:54:17 pmThankyou for taking the time to make such a detailed and informative post I do appreciate it .I have already been watching Davids posts and learning a lot . However I do understand where you are coming from on this issue . I already have a good variable power supply that suits me and a quality German made solder station and a cheaper but also good solder station for larger parts . I will not be going into digital circuits .I am not rich and it's hard to justify buying too much gear so once I get one oscilloscope that will be it . So I just thought I would get a good one straight up . However you do make some excellent points I never thought about due to lack of experience . So as I learn along and save some more money I may well take your advice at some point . I will look into what you have advise and see how I go saving . Who knows something may happen that means I can't spend 3000 anyway and have to go much cheaper . I will not be testing any main line powered circuits I only work on battery powered stuff mainly 12 volt . I understand the importance of the Earth lead. I now know how to set the probe to the internally generated square wave . I understand the trigger point adjustment and the zoom in and out of the wave form . I am getting there slowly . I did mention I am a slow learner that is true but I did not mention that once I do learn something I tend to retain it

author: tatel
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 21, 2023, 10:20:26 am
content: Quote from: tggzzz on April 21, 2023, 08:10:48 amYeah, I often do. However this time I thought it was clear I was responding to domlisms. My bad...

author: tatel
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 21, 2023, 11:00:12 am
content: Quote from: Juan on April 21, 2023, 10:01:25 amJuan, of course you are free to do it your own way. It's just that getting a 350 MHz scope to do a 30 KHz project is more than overkill, it's going thermonuclear. And I can see the wait frustrated you. Any low-end oscilloscope, even a toy one, will be able to cope with that project. So no need to be frustrated for a so long time. However, if one wants to get an oscilloscope that will remain useful in the future, it should be able to do some serious work.Looking at PSUs is in the low-end range of serious things, a 20 MHz scope can do it. Even if you don't plan to work with mains-connected devices, it's quite possible that some day, some device that you really appreciate will be not working anymore, and there's a good chance it's PSU will be to blame. PSUs often are connected to mains.Now, after radiolistener statements, I'm not so sure DSO2512 could be good enough to do that. An Owon handheld alternative has been suggested.But of course you can go with SDS1xxx or even SDS2xxx. Just remember you can buy the lowest one, then unlock it to the highest.Boa sorte

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 21, 2023, 06:43:35 pm
content: Another approach: Get what you can afford, learn to use it and learn its limitations. Then sell it and upgrade to what you really need. There is no reason to believe that your first scope is your last scope.For my simple needs when working with uCs and FPGAs, a 100 MHz scope is adequate. The signals I might look at are around 10 MHz for external devices. Sure, internally, the FPGA may be running at 100 MHz or more but the external components are not.At some point, a logic analyzer is more useful than an oscilloscope.

author: tatel
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 23, 2023, 04:48:17 am
content: Not saying OP should get DSO154, but would you say that thing could work good enough to do a 30 KHz project?https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/zeeweii-toyscopes-how-do-they-do-it/msg4828307/#msg4828307

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 23, 2023, 07:34:07 am
content: Quote from: rstofer on April 21, 2023, 06:43:35 pmThis is sound advice.People's needs change over time - not only in terms of one tool's specification, but also in terms of needing different types of tool.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 23, 2023, 04:04:29 pm
content: Quote from: tatel on April 23, 2023, 04:48:17 amIt seems to me, after BRIEFLY reviewing the specs, that it could be entirely adequate for a low frequency project. It is a single channel scope and that SERIOUSLY limits its utility but it could still be useful in many applications. It's a starting point.It costs about $27 USD at Amazon (by way of AliExpress) and, at that price, it would be worthwhile for the education alone.It doesn't seem to come with a decent scope probe either. This will be important for higher voltages (x10 range) and higher input impedance. They don't cost much...https://www.amazon.com/Oscilloscope-Probe%EF%BC%8C1x-Attenuation-Portable-Accessories/dp/B07XPVLV1PThere are always other options and many have been covered here.

author: tatel
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 24, 2023, 12:53:56 am
content: Well, after my rant about analog scopes on Europe, I found a Tektronix 2246 almost locally. Seems to work, owner provided pictures with traces on the screen. €200 sadly, but hey, after seeing how much is asked for 20 MHz Hamegs I'm considering it. I'm told it hasn't so many unobtanium hybrids inside. Will see.For OP, there are some real cheap oscilloscopes, two of them could be enough for more advanced projects than the one it already is in:Zeeweii DSO154https://aliexpress.com/item/1005004972406356.htmlcan also be bought with battery and probe. Battery runs out quickly, so if one has a probe, it could be wise to bought the cheap version, whose hardware is absolutely identical, and get a battery with more amps/hour. Since it has only one channel and just 18 MHz bandwidth, it would be recommendable only on a very low budget and under the circumstances already expressed by rstofer. About €40 with battery and probe.Zeeweii DSO2512https://aliexpress.com/item/1005003085753955.htmlThats the one aldo22 suggested. aldo22 and I are getting a lot of fun with it (altought I don't even own it). We also already learned a couple things about aliasing, etc. Double channel, seems that it could do at least 20 MHz with both channels, perhaps 40 MHz. It's battery is said do be quite a lot better than DSO154's. Link to the relevant thread was already provided by aldo22. About €100Somebody suggested an Owon handheld, I think he's was suggesting HDS200 series. Low end model would be HDS242, dual channel 40 MHz, it has 20 MHz bandwidth limit button (so looks more serious than Zeeweei's models) and it's also a 20000 count multimeter. Other models go at least up to 100 MHz, even higher than that, and can include also signal generator. However HDS242 could be the same that HDS272 without even unlocking?Not really sure about that, and higher models could go up to €200 and more. At that price range an old analog could be found near that price?It seems that most software bugs have been already ironed out. However it also seems that it gets hot after some minutes powered on and recalibration is often needed. Firmwares available, while (somewhat scarcely) provided by Owon, are heavily model and even serial number dependent. And it comes with just one probe. This is the forum thread about it (26 pages):https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/owon-hds-200-handheld-oscilloscope-w-builtin-dmmawg/HDS242 is about €125. Can be found here:https://es.aliexpress.com/item/1005005174220079.html

author: tatel
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 24, 2023, 01:28:06 am
content: Sorry I couldn't resist. It looks that european virus got into the US. See attachment

author: akshay.jain
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: August 22, 2024, 09:56:00 am
content: If you're a beginner or hobbyist looking for a budget oscilloscope, I recommend checking out the Rigol DS1054Z or the Siglent SDS1104X-E. Both offer great value for the price with solid features like 50-100 MHz bandwidth, 4 channels, and user-friendly interfaces, making them ideal for learning and small projects.If you're looking for more recommendations and detailed reviews, checkout this comprehensive guide that covers the best oscilloscopes for beginners. You can check it out here:https://playwithcircuit.com/best-oscilloscopes-for-beginners-and-hobbyists/. It’s a great resource to help you find the right oscilloscope for your needs!