Has anyone seen this - Voltserver: "Digital Electricity" - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: rrinker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 14, 2018, 02:47:34 pm
content: http://voltserver.com/Once you get past the marketing wank (and boy is there a lot of it...), it looks to me what thy are doing is combining data and power via square waves with variable duty cycle. Sounds to me an awful lot like DCC model train control. One of our (non EE background) guys went to a demo and was describing it as the power going into a capacitor bank and the data comes out the other side. One of our sales guys has an EE degree (background in PIR design) and I overheard this conversation and we were both like - there has to be more to it, capacitors alone can't store and recreate digital information. Poking around on their web site eventually gets you to a page describing the technology at least a little bit, and the first thing that struck me was that it looks like DCC for trains.

author: StillTrying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 14, 2018, 04:21:57 pm
content: "VoltServer Raises $5 Million to Expand Digital Electricity Commercial DeploymentsVoltServer receives $1M Department of Energy GrantVoltServer closes $2M Series A financingSlater Invests $250k in Energy Management Startup"It doesn't have to produce or have anything.I think I'll develop a new Digtal Light Bulb, with two special Digital Modes, - ON and OFF.https://www.sbir.gov/sbirsearch/detail/868253http://www.google.com/patents/US8068937

author: frozenfrogz
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 14, 2018, 05:37:08 pm
content: So basically they are advertising for two halves of a high frequency switch mode power supply that can modulate additional data packets onto a DC / PWM Signal?Sounds like a"War of the currents"re-enactment somehow.Another patent for "Packet energy transfer" from that company.Man have they filed a lot of these!

author: phil from seattle
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 14, 2018, 09:01:01 pm
content: Man I hate marketing crap that completely hides what the product actually does. Best I could tell from looking at their installed products page, it's some sort of power supply - mostly POE. Meh. Whole lot of words over a whole lot of nothing.But perhaps the worst is their attempt to brand electricity. Digital Electricity - I think I puked a little over that one. If I heard someone say "we're using digital electricity!", I would be hard pressed not to give them a round-house bitch slap. And using Edison and Tesla in the same image? WTF??? What's next, 64-bit power?

author: frozenfrogz
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2018, 12:04:53 am
content: Quote from: phil from seattle on February 14, 2018, 09:01:01 pmNext up in line would be »quantum state electricity« or »quantum entangled electricity«

author: Neomys Sapiens
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2018, 12:42:23 am
content: Packet energy transfer?That seriously sounds like a former-eastern-block euphemism for frequent power outages!

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2018, 03:40:11 am
content: QuoteYou mean 'how it works'. What itdoesis the point of the marketing (crap or otherwise) - the end user doesn't care about how it works, they want it for what it does. No-one buys an audio system because 'the flexible horns vibrate and cause pressure waves in air'. They buy the stuff because, in hi-fidelity, it 'transports a magical music performance right there to your front room for your personal listening'.

author: phil from seattle
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2018, 03:55:04 am
content: Quote from: dunkemhigh on February 15, 2018, 03:40:11 amSo, Digital Electricity is what it does? Thanks for straightening me out.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2018, 05:04:59 am
content: QuoteThe brand name. Hence the use of 'TM' - which means 'Trade Mark'. Some reference material you may find useful:Trademarks according to USPTOSee also:About brand names"Dunkin' Doughnuts" don't actually dunk, you know. It's just a brand name.QuoteYou're welcome.

author: ajb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2018, 06:25:27 am
content: Reading the articles linked from the website is a bit more enlightening. It seems it's a low voltage power distribution system that has some sort of handshaking between end points and fault protection. The real selling point is that, since it's low voltage, it's a lot less expensive to install and move around than mains wiring--more akin to telecom or alarm wiring in terms of wiring techniques and code requirements--while being capable of delivering higher power levels than PoE. They claim up to 1kW, which must be something like 20A @ 48V, although it's not clear if that's on a single line or spread across multiple outputs on one supply. They claim they can power an entire PoE switch which can then power multiple WAPs, or cellular stations, so it seems like there's a niche for it in wireless deployments in existing buildings or in buildings that are expected to see frequent renovation, so aiming the pitch at the commercial real estate market makes some sense.

author: Berni
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2018, 06:42:39 am
content: I don't get it. What does this actually do?Are they trying to put 1kW trough ethernet cables? Well... technically if you parallel enough of them...

author: frozenfrogz
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2018, 08:18:08 am
content: Quote from: ajb on February 15, 2018, 06:25:27 amNo. It is high voltage, low current otherwise you would need thick gauge wire.

author: BrianHG
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2018, 08:32:56 am
content: Why does this seem like a cheap re-branding of these existing technologies:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power-line_communication

author: frozenfrogz
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2018, 08:56:15 am
content: After reading up a bit on the subject:The difference is, that for power lan you have AC current on the line and data packets get modulated on there. Power lan absolutely sucks by the way. I am having one machine connected that way and it is slow and unreliable. The voltserver is more like power over ethernet but with focus on energy transfer, thus giving you the option to use up to 1200W over a CAT6 cable. The amount of data to be transfered is limited though.POE: Lots of data, up to 90W of powerPET: Up to 1200W of power, some data for switching applications

author: donotdespisethesnake
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2018, 09:19:55 am
content: Yes, it's time multiplexing power and data. Or, they pulse power and use a dead time to detect faults. They can use the dead time to transmit data as well.Not an expert in the field, but it sounds quite novel to me. It's only possible with modern electronics.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2018, 09:48:26 am
content: My quick understanding from the video and stuff, and I'm not an expert, is that they send a pulse of juice followed by some data. The USP is that it's safe power and turns off withing 3ms, which is short enough to not kill you if you touch it. Hence why the power pulse is 1.1ms wide.So, the supply sends a 1.1ms pulse of HV power, some data bits, then waits for the far end to say, "OK, send me more". But this is also supposed to work over thousands of feet and there's a round trip time involved which goes up as the wire goes long. At first I thought this would be a killer since it would slow down the pulses, but I am stuck in data comms mode. Does it really matter if the pulses are taking longer to generate? On the face of it, all that would do is reduce the throughput of power (it would look like PWM, although it isn't really). As the cable gets longer your power capability reduces. Just like resistance, kind of. Actually, 'in addition to resistance'.There would need to be some clever smoothing out of these power pulses, but it's surely doable. On the face of it, calling it digital electricity wouldn't be far off the mark. To anyone with a scope it would look like that and they are effectively packetising the power. Could well be one to keep an eye on.

author: rrinker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2018, 02:29:24 pm
content: Quote from: StillTrying on February 14, 2018, 04:21:57 pmOh they most definitely have something. The only reason I even heard of it is because one of our clients installed it. The physical devices exist, and it does work.

author: rrinker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2018, 02:36:32 pm
content: It is most definitely high voltage - the specs on the label for the box at one end say 332-346V DC. Or something like that, I only got a glance at the picture, the low end is > 330V though.It's not trying to shove this over thin twisted pair cable, it uses something that's around 18 gauge. And multiple pairs for redundancy of both signal and power. The client's installation has 3 modules in the source unit, which drives a total of 3 pairs out to the destination.The diagrams and signal graph shown in their patents are not what I expected. This is the power transmisison one:http://www.freepatentsonline.com/y2016/0134331.htmland this is one for another critical piece - the fault detection method, given they are passing > 300VDC. Love the stick figures..https://patents.google.com/patent/US8781637

author: StillTrying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2018, 03:51:06 pm
content: "Oh they most definitely have something. The only reason I even heard of it is because one of our clients installed it. The physical devices exist, and it does work."Does it look like $10m worth of development?If you needed/wanted to semi-remotely power and control some expensive/sensitive equipment. Are we sure that sending it 500Hz 300V pp square waves is the best and much more efficient way than just using a power and data cable?It might "work", but even a stopped watch is correct twice a day.I don't get it, are we sure it's not just expensive snake oil?

author: frozenfrogz
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2018, 06:50:35 pm
content: As far as I understand it their selling point is that retrofitting buildings with additional power lines is more cost efficient because you don't need certified electricians and heavy equipment to do the job due to system safety and less regulations but just a technician that runs some 18 gauge twisted pair cables - "as used for security cameras and is cheaply available" (quoted from the vid) - into existing data cable trays.They have some real world examples in the video I posted earlier. However since the audio quality is a little fatiguing I did not watch all of it but skipped through to get a bit of an overview :/

author: Red Squirrel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2018, 06:54:14 pm
content: Maybe they will be mixing in happy pixies along with the angry pixies, so this will be like binary.

author: StillTrying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2018, 10:51:40 pm
content: Quote from: frozenfrogz on February 15, 2018, 06:50:35 pmI've just watched most of the video, the more I watched the more I thought it was snake oil.50/60Hz power cables cause enough problems without converting it to 600Hz 336V square waves.

author: Cyberdragon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2018, 11:39:05 pm
content: Quote from: StillTrying on February 15, 2018, 10:51:40 pmExactly, this crap will never pass FCC, let alone EMI! It's a stupid idea! Square wave power!OH HELL NO!!!Just imagine anything with a speaker turning into...

author: rrinker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2018, 05:21:08 pm
content: After looking at their patents, it doesn't look like a square wave (despite the marketing wank showing just that). There seems to be some sort of sawtooth where the power component is switch off for some small number of microseconds.I haven't seen the equipment at this client in person, just in photos. It LOOKS like decent gear, not something thrown together on a lark, the main unit is neatly rack integrated, the remotes by design are just plain boxes which look decently ruggedized like most industrial gear.I doubt the idea and a proof of concept cost them anywhere near $10 million.

author: Cyberdragon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2018, 07:27:11 pm
content: Sawtooth is just as bad. When you have a sharp transition, you get unwanted radio waves, just like with a triac chopping a sine wave. So unless they have extensive shielding and filtering (expensive!) it will be aweful at long runs!

author: schmitt trigger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2018, 07:34:40 pm
content: And people thought that Tesla was crazy because of his attempts to send power wirelessly.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2018, 10:12:42 pm
content: QuoteI am reminded that aircraft use 400Hz or so (albeit rather than chopped DC). Although the airframe is pretty much a faraday cage they presumably have serious filtering to protect the internal electronics?

author: Cyberdragon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2018, 10:40:41 pm
content: Quote from: dunkemhigh on February 16, 2018, 10:12:42 pmAbsolutely, the wires have mesh shielding like coax does. Sometimes even multiple layers.Also, "Touch Safe" "High Voltage"If it's so "safe" then show someone grabbing the two conductors. Or better yet, LICK IT! Bet you they won't! The only way for that to be possible is if the current shuts off faster than your nerves conduct. But even then it's impossible to tell a legit load from a person across the lines. They might just be using some sort of GFI, but that's only to ground, not across the conductors! Not "touch safe"!

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2018, 11:53:57 pm
content: The short pulse won't kill you, will it? They say that another doesn't get sent until the remote agrees that the prior one was safe, so if they have some way of detecting a problem that should solve that.But... what, and how, can be detected? I am thinking that the sender can say how my power there was in the pulse and the receiver can check that the same amount arrived. Would that detect a potentially fatal grab? I am not expert enough, but I am also reminded of the table saw safety feature that shot a bolt into the saw if it detected a finger about to be chopped. On the face of it I would have said it couldn't possibly react fast enough, but I've seen the videos of saveloys being shoved in and coming out unmarked. I note that no-one ever used a real finger in a demo.It's probably worth pointing out that 'non-fatal' doesn't necessarily mean 'unnoticeable'. If you got a tingle, even a large one, I think that would count as working but would ensure you wouldn't keep doing it just to see if it works. Whilst safety devices should be tested often, you don't test them for real - you /have/ to allow that this one time it won't work. Doesn't invalidate the device, though, since it only has to work once to have been useful.

author: ogden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2018, 12:02:44 am
content: Quote from: StillTrying on February 15, 2018, 10:51:40 pmCould you please tell where you see square waves? Waveforms shown in patent applications are far from square wave. I don't think that they are so stupid to do such an simple mistake - make product with EMI issues.

author: Cyberdragon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2018, 12:21:35 am
content: For any device to work it needs to have continuous power. To get continuous power with their stupid pulse system you need big capacitor banks and send a lot of energy in the short bursts for the capacitors to keep enough charge. So now your sending an even larger amount of energy at one time down the wires, even if it's pulsed. So it will only kill you faster! It only takes 1A to kill! And any living body is just a resistance, it's scientifically impossible to tell if it's a person or a proper load across conductors. Unless they are using some sort of reflective impedance testing, in which case that's more needlessover normal power. Even if it didn't kill you, it would be a horrible experience, not like the ZZZZZZZ of AC, more like BANG-BANG-BANG-BANG-BANG... The capacitors would just explode you into little pieces.So the only way this would be safe is if it's below lethal limits, or uses some complex impedance testing (that runs continuously at that!). In which case, it would be trivial to just use sinewave AC or continuous DC, without all this over-complicatedthat's just going to create a ton of noise and wasted power! This is beyond Juicero level stupid, this is electrode-water-heater level stupid!

author: ogden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2018, 12:22:30 am
content: Quote from: dunkemhigh on February 16, 2018, 11:53:57 pmYou can rest assured that it can be detected. There are various methods. For example one which is used on AC mains:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earth_leakage_circuit_breakerp.s. I don't think this is freaking roadways - kind of project. They are addressing right thing. Industry is struggling with PoE power limits. Mobile industry badly needs such kind of power - for small cells. Also this tech allows 30% power supply cost reduction, but for example LED fixture is mainly power supply (besides LEDs obviously)

author: sibeen
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2018, 12:29:40 am
content: Just a pedantic point to be made, High Voltage (HV), as defined for regulatory purposes, is an AC voltage above 1000 V RMS and a DC voltage above 1500 V. Anything at the levels being discussed is still low voltage (LV) for the purposes of electrical safety standards.

author: ogden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2018, 12:30:26 am
content: Quote from: Cyberdragon on February 17, 2018, 12:21:35 amFirst look at the duty cycle of Voltserver, also look at waveforms in available documents:https://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/1d/0b/2c/9409ac5009fa0e/US20130103220A1-20130425-D00008.pngDoes voltage drops to zero? Then please tell how 50/60Hz AC mains-powered devices manage to operate. They have voltage dips as well, they have even zero crossingQuoteYou can be horribly wrong this time. Corrected attachment.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2018, 12:47:24 am
content: QuoteAccepted. I knew that when using the term but couldn't quickly think of something more succinct to differentiate from, say, trivial 12V supplies. Mea culpa

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2018, 12:49:09 am
content: QuoteOf course not. Dave hasn't BUSTED it yet

author: ogden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2018, 12:56:05 am
content: Quote from: dunkemhigh on February 17, 2018, 12:49:09 amYou most likely are joking, right?

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2018, 01:02:03 am
content: Quote from: ogden on February 17, 2018, 12:56:05 amYes.Well, probably.More than likely, anyway

author: Muttley Snickers
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 17, 2018, 01:17:16 am
content: In certain regions such as AU and NZ for instance I strongly suspect that these higher voltage POE or PET configurations could be in breach of existing cabling regulations and wiring guidelines and the same may apply elsewhere, particularly in regards to mandatory separation between services regardless of their incorporated protection methods.In a regulatory sense this would be similar to running a mains feed along side or in close proximity to an existing data or communications network which is not just in breach of the current technical standards but also completely illegal. Also when the lights suddenly go on the blink who should the customer call, the sparky, the network dude or both simultaneously ?.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2018, 01:22:43 am
content: QuoteMight it not be like running an extension cable?

author: Cyberdragon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2018, 01:23:44 am
content: GFIs work only to ground. "Safe to Touch" does not specify this, so the average joe might think across the lines would be safe. Dangerous marketing! They are using 300V peak!!! That's mains, so totally not safe! And as meantioned falls under all the same safety standards.AC devices (minus incandescent bulbs and motors), have capacitors, exactly as I said and as shown in your pic. If they're transmitting power in 'packets' as people have been suggesting it would imply that it would be off for long periods. What that waveform would be then is the wave when it's on. So you'd have to have capacitors that store enough power to not only run during the zero crossing, but during the totally off periods! Then you'd have to transmit that power during the on periods! And why are they using a triangle wave?! That's just going to make noise (not nearly as bad as square), and provides less total power (area under the wave) than a sine wave!EDIT: It doesn't go through 0 in the triangle wave. So there's the extra power. Which makes it just a pointless waveform imposed on DC!

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2018, 01:34:00 am
content: QuotePerhaps that's what a 300V square pulse looks like when you take into account rise times over that kind of wire and for that duration.

author: ogden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2018, 01:43:12 am
content: Quote from: Cyberdragon on February 17, 2018, 01:23:44 amSeems, you did not see video. GFI is not only protection they are providing.QuoteYou shall catch the train and at least check basic operation parameters of tech we are talking here about. Otherwise you are having strong opinion about stuff you know close to nothingPeriod is 1.5ms, it's on for 1.1ms and "off" (which is not 0V) for 0.4ms.Quoteyou are talking about?QuoteWhere do you see triangle wave?

author: Muttley Snickers
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 17, 2018, 01:44:05 am
content: Quote from: dunkemhigh on February 17, 2018, 01:22:43 amNot if it were their intention to utilise or base a system around existing cabling which already incorporated telecoms and CAT5/6 network wiring, as a registered open cabler I have the technical standards and cabling regulations for AU and NZ here but as mentioned earlier they would probably differ dramatically from those used elsewhere.

author: ogden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2018, 02:00:30 am
content: Quote from: Muttley Snickers on February 17, 2018, 01:44:05 amSeems like they aim to get approval that their system is as safe as <= 48VDC systems. This is all over patent documents and marketing materials as well. Patent US20130103220A1: "Safe Exposed Conductor Power Distribution System". Thou, in video they show data center installation where power and data wiring is properly separated.

author: Cyberdragon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2018, 02:10:17 am
content: I'm not watching an hour long marketing vid. It's 300V! What magical safety are they using? I've been hit with 300V across my hand before and it hurts like hell!Your pic shows a triangle wave (I see now it doesn't cross 0V, meaning only a standard smoothing cap then). I thought this tech used square before that. So why is it a triangle in the pic? You said yourself it wasn't square too!Quote from: ogden on February 17, 2018, 12:02:44 amSo, if it's square, you'd have nasty EMI. Otherwise, if it's triangle (or some other shape), how is it "digital" and "packetized" then?

author: ogden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2018, 02:14:22 am
content: Quote from: Cyberdragon on February 17, 2018, 02:10:17 amHeard ofslew rate control? - Those guys are not beginners. They for sure knows what is needed to be within EMI/EMC regulations. So all your "it will make lot of noise" is just... "lot of noise". Digital and packetized? - Easy. V.90 modems transmitted 56Kbps of data using audio (!) band. Those Voltserver "packets" are 1kbps average or so. At given duty rate it is max 8Kbps. Not even close to RF interference

author: ogden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2018, 02:19:07 am
content: Frauhofer would not put their name in shame, but yet they collaborate with them:http://www.cse.fraunhofer.org/cleantechnotes_lastupdated052017/digitizing-electricity

author: Muttley Snickers
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 17, 2018, 02:22:37 am
content: Our cabling and wiring standards down here are pretty much based around separation from other services and the reference points are particular voltage levels or potential differences, mandatory separation distances, protective barriers or insulating conduits are all relative.

author: Cyberdragon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2018, 02:41:27 am
content: What's shown in your pic isn't slew control. Unless it went so far as to unsquare the wave entirely (as far as I know it's never that dramatic). It's also for data, not power, so maybe at these levels it would have to be dramatic. This still doesn't address safety either! And now it's just added even more complicated circuits when it could all be avoided by just using DC in the first place!1Kbs!You want to send data at dial-up speeds to what exactly? You know, there's this amazing invention called WI-FI!

author: BrianHG
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2018, 04:16:58 am
content: You can get over a megabit down normal AC power lines with the full power intact as well.

author: Cyberdragon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2018, 05:05:23 am
content: Quote from: BrianHG on February 17, 2018, 04:16:58 amYep, traditional tech is vastly superior to utter bullshit in every way!Someone photoshop a "BUSTED" stamp onto a screenshot of their website.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2018, 05:20:57 am
content: QuoteCan't help thinking you're going to regret making all these unequivocal posts.

author: Cyberdragon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2018, 05:56:04 am
content: Quote from: dunkemhigh on February 17, 2018, 05:20:57 amSo you're saying you actually support this crap?Of using super slow, wired, seperate conduit, high voltage connections, when other superior data over power systems exist and we have high speed, cheap, low power wireless connections? No, I shall never regret stomping all over bullshit!Go ahead...show any advantage that's worth anything of this over all existing systems.EDIT: In fact, we can bust most of their wank right now!If what ogden said is true about the 8Kbs limit, then that busts all the stuff they tout about 5G and beating PoE and whatnot."Safe to touch", maybe for ground faults. But you'll get your ass bitten if you get across the conductors at 300VLighting controllers, for small stuff, use WiFi and standard power. For big PLCs, can they even handle the power requirements?IoT sensors, traditional PoE or power plus WiFiAnything else we need to bust?

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2018, 06:25:53 am
content: The idea is a little bit like what I imagined as a compromise of AC and DC. Except my idea is 170V or 340V DC being pulsed at 100Hz or so with a 90% or so duty cycle and a slew rate limited to avoid EMI. The real point is to solve the arcing problem of HVDC yet be cheaper and more efficient to derive from a DC supply than AC.Quote from: BrianHG on February 17, 2018, 04:16:58 amJust one megabit? 90Mbps or more is easily done as long as there's not too many noisy devices. Telephone lines do even better though - I managed 600Mbps with some hacked Homeplug adapters over a few hundred feet of old telephone line.Still, pulling a perfect HDTV picture off the mains looks like magic.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2018, 06:26:25 am
content: QuoteI'm saying I have a serious case of CBA and just going to watch the fun, now.

author: Cyberdragon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2018, 06:55:03 am
content: Quote from: dunkemhigh on February 17, 2018, 06:26:25 amI see exactly what they want to do, it's all over their website! Touting 5G interlinks and crap! It's 8Kbs, you can't do much with that other than simple automation! If you want a wired connection, then use traditional PoE, that would be way faster! I don't have to be open minded about a company that also says 300V is safe to touch when I know from experience it bites like a mad dog! Of course WiFi is not secure, but most IoT crap is using it anyway so what does it matter? If your building already has wifi, they'll try to hack it anyway!Beware of being overly open minded, you'll get sucked into the rabbit hole, just think of:JuiceroBatterooRayton SolarWaterseerSolar Roadways

author: BrianHG
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2018, 07:13:12 am
content: Quote from: NiHaoMike on February 17, 2018, 06:25:53 amWe are talking about superimposing on the existing power wiring in an multi floor office building or stadium or shopping mall, through all the existing infrastructure without re-wiring a thing in an affordable manner to control lighting, AC/Heat, sensors, alarm and intercom, perhaps a few more things. It is easier to get more bandwidth in a small house, but in such large buildings, you can expect your data will need to go up and down some HV transformers along the way. Really high bandwidth is claimed on the WiKi link I have placed a few posts back, but, we are only competing with a few joking KBaud.on cat5/6 cable, which still needs to be wired out.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2018, 07:34:22 am
content: I don't see having a single collision domain for a large building as a good idea. The probably of a collision goes way up with a large number of nodes and bandwidth goes way down. The transformers attenuating the signal can be used as a feature to have separate collision domains on each segment.

author: ogden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2018, 09:53:50 am
content: Quote from: Cyberdragon on February 17, 2018, 02:41:27 amNo it's not. - In case you talk about LTspice simulation I made for you to show how stupidly wrong you are about capacitors by saying"To get continuous power with their stupid pulse system you need big capacitor banks and send a lot of energy in the short bursts for the capacitors to keep enough charge."and that's it. Even waveform chosen was worst case 0-300V PWM where just duty cycle matches to Voltserver specs. Though you will understand w/o description, but seems you did notQuoteSo you are suggesting just to use plain >= 350VDC. RIGHT.QuoteYou don't have to look stupid to prove your arguments, but whatever.. This is communication channel between power source equipment and load - exclusively and only power-related communications. No 3rd party data.

author: ogden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2018, 09:57:24 am
content: Quote from: Cyberdragon on February 17, 2018, 06:55:03 amGeez! It'spower deliveryin packets, not data.Before you shout your uneducated arguments all over the forum - please at least know basics about subject of conversation!p.s. It is average 1KbpsI mentioned worst case, max 8KBps just to say that it does not need much frequency bandwidth to be transmitted - that audio band is enough for it meaning there will be no RF interference because of thisservice data channel.I have feeling like it's discussion with flatearthers. Seriously

author: donotdespisethesnake
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2018, 11:27:40 am
content: Quote from: dunkemhigh on February 17, 2018, 12:47:24 amThere are various flavors of ELVhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extra-low_voltageI think the "Digital Electricity" method can work, I think the question from the user point of view would be the lifetime of capacitors, typically these might be 5 years. Of course, if VoltServer sell new kit every 5 years that is fine for them

author: StillTrying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2018, 11:55:54 am
content: "It'spower deliveryin packets, not data."How do you sendpowerin packets. It's just a fancy name for a remote on/off switch. ie. cobblers.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2018, 12:06:36 pm
content: QuoteM u s t. R e s i s t. M U S T R E S IBollocks.1 0 1 1 PPP 0 1 1 01/0 = digital dataP = 300V powerGosh. Look at thatpacketizedpower.

author: StillTrying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2018, 01:17:23 pm
content: Quote from: BrianHG on February 17, 2018, 07:13:12 amWell thismore efficient than conventional methodssystem uses 336VDC with small gaps, so good luck with that!I've looked at the site, watched the video, read all the posts here, thought, and I'm putting it somewhere between snake oil and scam.

author: John Heath
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2018, 03:19:03 pm
content: Quote from: NiHaoMike on February 17, 2018, 07:34:22 amThere are times when it is hard to penetrate a building with 2.4 GHz from the outside. I my case it is to WIFI a LED sign that is outside the building. From what you said there could be a chance to cheat by having the WIFI antenna very close to the sign power lines from inside the sign. Some of the RF should be coupled into the hydro lines? I could mount the other WIFI inside the building in the electrician's room to pick up a tiny bit of 2.4 GHz from the sign. Even with all the inherent hydro shielding the plastic breakers are plastic so some WIFI should leak out. Copper wire has to be better than fresh air. Maybe there would be just enough RF left for a reasonable WIFI connection??

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2018, 04:15:24 pm
content: Quote from: John Heath on February 17, 2018, 03:19:03 pmI think the dielectric loss is the factor at work. Homeplug auto selects frequencies between 2MHz and 100MHz or so, using whatever gives an acceptable SNR.

author: ogden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2018, 06:16:18 pm
content: Quote from: StillTrying on February 17, 2018, 11:55:54 amYou are mistaken indeed. Please confirm that earth is flat so I can skip explanation why it is not just remote on/off switch.

author: Cyberdragon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2018, 07:42:08 pm
content: Quote from: ogden on February 17, 2018, 06:16:18 pmWe know exactly what you are saying. The question is do you?Lets review the definition of the word "PACKET"https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Network_packetIf you are"packetizing the power"itself, you are BY DEFINITION sending it in PULSES. Which brings us back to my original point that you will need CAPACITORS to convert this into clean DC power for a device to operate. Let alone the physics of why this is more complicated than normal rectifier ripple filtering.https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filter_capacitorWhy would you pulse the power? This is totally pointless!What purpose would anyone have to overcomplicate things?If it's also modulating the pulses to communicate, then WHY? What possible data would a device need to communicate to it's power source? Control data? That's what POE is for! You can also impose the data OVER the power without ever pulsing the power itself!You've yet to give us any specific examples of any specific uses, let alone advanges, of this! Sure you can regurgitate their marketing wank, but again, prove why this is not inferior to existing tech! You've beaten around the bush so much you've killed it!Untill you do (give us examples and advantages), this crap is going under STUPID, and SNAKE OIL!

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2018, 08:22:59 pm
content: Quote from: Cyberdragon on February 17, 2018, 07:42:08 pmIt does solve the main problem of HVDC - the tendency of it to arc. Sending data in only the gaps isn't a particularly good use of bandwidth, however. Maybe I need to do a remake of that HVP70 test setup to show that Homeplug also works over HVDC...

author: ogden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2018, 08:23:53 pm
content: Quote from: Cyberdragon on February 17, 2018, 07:42:08 pmRight. This is why I did LTspice simulationto show youthat offered tech needs smaller capacitors than existing 50/60Hz systems:Seems, you are not able to comprehend information provided.  Which leads to obvious question: what the heck you are doing in this discussion?QuotePower pulsing is needed for power AND fault detection. While you provide power - it is hard to detect someone touching wires. Indeed you need "fault detection" phase. During 1.1ms they provide power, next 0.4ms they communicate to load and at the same time they check for faults like human connected somewhere.QuoteFault detection, on/off state communication, dimmer settings and so on.QuotePoE is for 1) data that is not related to power, transmission 2) power provision. PoE does not transmit for example dimmer settings.QuoteThey are notpulsingpower to modulate data. On/Off keying of power for data transmission is just your uneducated assumption.QuoteMore than 100W power over twisted-pair cables like Cat6. Cellular network providers are hungry for such. They state that big displays (TVs) are / can be powered as well. There are loads of applications that can benefit from cabling that is not regulated in same safety category as AC mains.

author: Cyberdragon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2018, 10:19:08 pm
content: So it's pulsing at about 900 something hertz (or whatever they actually use) and transmitting between them. You're still using capacitors (where DC wouldn't, or would be even smaller just for voltage drop suppression), and as you even said you'd need slew control and other complex EMI solutions over normal power (especially at high power). It doesn't have to do with the frequency of the power either, it's the sharp edges that have to be suppressed (hence the above). Normal DC also does not experience inductive losses, which pulsed DC will (and greater than normal AC at lower frequency). Also look up the "skin effect" (related to inductive losses). Plus that's not including power factor, which may cause weird effects with your slew control!http://suddendocs.samtec.com/notesandwhitepapers/simplified-pulse-current.pdfAs NiHaoMike said about transmitting between packets, this isn't very efficient for bandwidth. There are normal systems that use data over top of power, which have much higher bandwidth and can do all you described while using normal DC or AC power. Like I said, you'd never have to pulse the power (even to send data in between)!So the only thing this has going for it is this so called "Safe Touch" fault detection. You can do short circuit and arc suppression on normal systems, it's not new. Explain exactly how it's supposed to detect a person across the lines in these off periods and turn off the power faster than you can feel it (at whatever Hz too)? Remember, a person is just a resistance, so across the lines it just looks like a load. Are they using impedance testing? And I won't be satisfied until SOMEONE puts their hands across it and PROVES it's safe. (at least with that saw thing they used a sausage, although for this a person is required because a sausage can't feel a shock)Quote"They state that" I don't care what the marketing dept says, I care about science! Over 100W over CAT6?! First of all, is CAT6 even rated for 300V? I don't think codes would allow that, so you'd have to use mains cable anyway just due to the voltage involved! At 300V 100W the current is 1/3 Amp. CAT6 is (generously) 24AWG, which means a max rating about 0.6 Amp. However, it's pulsed, so due to having a duty cycle the instantaneous current is actually greater than 1/3 Amp! The cooling effects won't be much either at that frequency! It may not burn up, but it'll still get warm and the temp will have to be considered.You can experiment with this at home too, just use a 100W audio amp and a slew controlled square wave at whatever their frequency is and feed it flat out into a speaker through a long piece of CAT6 for a long time. Now tell me the results. Did it get warm? What was the distortion?

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2018, 11:07:11 pm
content: QuoteWrong end of stick. The power is turned ON unless the previous pulse was determined to be 'safe'. That's the point of the pulses - individually they are safe and it only takes one bad one to bring the system to a complete halt.QuoteAt 300V is 180WQuoteI suspect your average audio amp isn't going to put out 300V, so the current will be enough to damage the wire. Testing with the wrong tool gives misleading results.

author: Cyberdragon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2018, 11:29:22 pm
content: Quote from: dunkemhigh on February 17, 2018, 11:07:11 pmBut HOW are you determining if it's safe? Also, again, it would still have to react within a millisecond!100W over 180W absulute max rated wire (IE it burns out past this), is going to get hot and is quite a dodgy thing to do.

author: ogden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2018, 11:34:23 pm
content: Quote from: Cyberdragon on February 17, 2018, 10:19:08 pmYou can't even do elementary math for 1.5ms periodQuoteYour offer to use unprotected >= 350V DC is uneducated to say it politely.QuoteOh, geezEfficient for bandwidth?How much bandwidth is needed to tell LED it's dimmer setting?QuoteIt's shown in the video which you refused to watchQuoteScience? How about pilot installations which are working well?QuoteYes, it is. Geez, how many times I have to counter your ignorance/stupidity/whatever?

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2018, 11:47:48 pm
content: QuoteDon't know. But, as I suggested previously, the sender could tell the receiver how much power to expect in the pulse and if it's not all there then there is a problem. Surely that's just the same as many mains fault detection works.QuoteFor crying out loud - there is NO REACTION TIME involved. The next pulse is ONLY sent if the previous one was safe. Thus any reaction time is in getting another one to be delivered. How many more times do this have to be said before you read and understand it? The next pulse won't be delivered until the receiver says it is OK to send it. That's what the data comms part of this setup does. It's not for bloody cat videos on youtube but an integral part of the safety. And fail safe at that - no comms, no power.

author: Cyberdragon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2018, 12:11:28 am
content: I didn't remember which one was the period in PSPICE! (the 1.1ms or the 1.5ms)I also, NEVER SAID HV! I meant for something like 48V! As I'll state below, just because they're using HV to try and avoid getting to close to max current ratings, doesn't mean shit if they're doing it wrong!Also, again, videos mean nothing (batteroo has them too! they can be faked you know.). Plus, like I said, i'm never going to believe it's safe until you sayHOWit's detecting if there is someone across the lines during the off periods!If you've watched the video, then give me their advantages in terms of numbers.Also, functional != good idea or improvement. An IOT spoon can function, but does that make it a good idea?The ABSOLUTE MAX for CAT6 is 300V.http://www.pacificcable.com/Cat_6_Tutorial.htmFor proper engineering (if you know it!) you'd never run a cable at it's max rating!https://www.wireandcabletips.com/cable-insulated-wire-safety-requirements-part-4-voltage-current-capacities/QuoteSo again, there's some miss information going on that video, as they are definitely either not running it through data cable, or they're violating codes. I don't know how they're running the pilot installs, but they are certainly not using CAT6 (or at least not using it properly)!P.S. To address the new post, mains fault detection only works to ground, not across the lines!Of course there's reaction time! It has to determine whether it's safe or not within a millisecond in order to send the next pulse within that time frame. So it means it has to run that routine in a millisecond! If they're using reflected impedance testing it would have to measure and make a determination that fast, regardless of the length of cable!

author: ogden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2018, 12:34:49 am
content: Quote from: Cyberdragon on February 18, 2018, 12:11:28 amMemory span of goldfish?Quote30% less cost of power supply BOM compared to AC mains supplies. Does it count?QuoteWhat?!QuoteWhat? Please elaborateQuoteYes. It means that it's rated for 300VYou can try to twist it as you want but truth is as it is.

author: Cyberdragon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2018, 12:43:59 am
content: I don't use PSPICE, hence I don't remember (yes, I know I should start using it).30% less huh? Is this plus the HVDC trasmission stuff, the slew rate control, the "Touch Safe" system, exc? (which you refused to address the operation of)QuoteNo, you are the one that doesn't understand proper engineering, and blatently ignored the rest of the post. I just said and sourced that youNEVER RUN A CABLE AT IT'S ABSOLUTE MAX VOLTAGE!!!(unless for testing it of course, but not in normal use!)EDIT: I don't know why i thought of an IOT spoon as an example, but there is an IOT fork.https://www.hapi.com/product/hapifork

author: ogden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2018, 12:58:10 am
content: Quote from: Cyberdragon on February 18, 2018, 12:43:59 amTo understand circuit and waveforms provided, spice knowledge is not required.QuoteIt's hard to follow you here. Please be specific.QuoteLOL. 300V rating is 300V rating. No matter how you are trying to twist it around proper engineering excusesDon't you think that your arguments are stupid? - I do.

author: Cyberdragon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2018, 01:32:07 am
content: I mean that do you still save 30% on costs over traditional systems, even though this requires the extra components stated?No, you CLEARLY do not understand wire ratings at all! Please do some research on wire insulation ratings. The reason you don't constantly run wire at it's max voltage is because it can stress the insulation and may cause it to fail after awhile!Plus, no electrical codes (at least in the US) will allow you to do this anyway, even if you wanted to tempt fate! Note: the EMI crosstalk should not apply (as I assume the HV is the only thing on the cable in this system).https://community.spiceworks.com/topic/395007-ethernet-cat-6-cable-and-electrical-power-cableQuote

author: m98
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2018, 12:02:22 pm
content: How about them not using some standard cat6 ethernet cable off Aliexpress, but actually something tailored to the specs they need? Or maybe there is some manufacturer who already offers something suitable off the shelf.How's touch protection gonna work? Probably something like this:Server: I just sent 1 J of Energy.Client 1: received 0.3 J.Client 2: received 0.3 J.Client 3: received 0.1 J.Server: Stops transmitting, indicates fault condition.

author: StillTrying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2018, 12:36:17 pm
content: Quote from: dunkemhigh on February 17, 2018, 11:47:48 pmAll the sender can do is switch back on (or not) the unregulated 336VDC, which is connected to all devices, the 336VDC is notaddressable packets of poweras described in some of the texts.QuoteYou must be kidding!http://electrical-engineering-portal.com/how-residual-current-device-rcd-worksQuoteThey say they 'test' the cable during the data period when the 336VDC is switched off to determine if it's safe or not. Some of us might not completely believe them, with a lot of devices connected to the cable it would be near impossible to detect the small extra load caused by a finger.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2018, 12:55:50 pm
content: QuoteAre you crazy?That would kill off at least one straw man.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2018, 01:07:13 pm
content: QuoteYes, indeed. Someone appears to be awakeQuoteYeah? Sure? I assumed it was point-to-point. Many devices, but each on its own wire (aka link).At the risk of confusing the issue, you might have a remote unit that is in fact a multiway socket, like a normal extension lead has. But that would be the remote device, not each thing that's plugged in. Still a single wire/link.QuoteCan you quote some of that text, please? I'd like to know exactly what we're talking about, here.QuoteEssentially, they determine the difference between what went out on the live leg and what's coming back on the neutral leg. About 30mA difference and it trips. Same king of thing here but obviously measured differently - the sender knows what went out, the remote tells it what was used, any difference and there's a problem. Same kind of principle, is it not?QuoteFine. I offered an opinion and acknowledged from the off that I didn't know. But now you have it from the horses mouth.[Thinks...] Hey, why don't you ask them? I guess that might spoil the scope for argument on here, but if you actually want toknowit's a simple and hard to beat thing to do.QuoteWouldn't that depend on what the finger is attached to, electrically?

author: Cyberdragon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2018, 03:02:06 pm
content: Quote from: dunkemhigh on February 18, 2018, 12:55:50 pmYep, means you'll have to use THEIR cable. So they probably won't let you use your existing wiring if it doesn't meet THEIR specs. So they will offer to rewire for you.$$$And yes, I think their "super hv safety" is total BS. Which is plenty terrible enough to throw this whole thing in the "dangerous snake oil" bin!EDIT: I bet if you ask them they won't tell you. Even if they do, it would probably be some BS.

author: frozenfrogz
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2018, 03:50:46 pm
content: Quote from: Cyberdragon on February 18, 2018, 03:02:06 pmActually in the presentation video I posted they mention that it was designed with typical cables for CCTV applications in mind since these are widely available at low prices. They talk about 18 gauge for maximum power throughput. I guess that means 18-2, RG-59 and likely CAT5 / 6 or whatever is common for CCTV / IP camera installation.

author: StillTrying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2018, 04:42:17 pm
content: Quote from: frozenfrogz on February 18, 2018, 03:50:46 pmOr you could save the massive expense, power inefficiencies, and 650Hz interference all over your picture by just using a normal cheap power cable.They've been going since about 2012, how many multi-camera CCTV systems are using this new 'Digital Electricity', I'd have a wild guess at zero.Steve Eaves of Voltserver at the July 2014 Providence Geekshttps://www.digitizelectric.com/how-it-works

author: John Heath
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2018, 06:47:09 pm
content: Quote from: NiHaoMike on February 17, 2018, 04:15:24 pmGood tip. I googled and they sell them at Canada computer stores for 60 bucks. They call it a power line adapter , same deal as homeplug . I will try and see if it works for a outside to inside building WIFI connection.

author: ogden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2018, 01:35:19 am
content: Quote from: StillTrying on February 18, 2018, 04:42:17 pmExpense of course is main argument here. This tech definitely shall not be seen as low cost power delivery in your house or flatPower inefficiencies? - Please explain what you mean.What's difference between 50/60 Hz interference compared to 650Hz? - None. Both are audible and both are not RF frequencies. It yet to be seen how much interference it creates. I bet it is much less than AC dimmers. What most of opponents do here are just uneducated speculations, some even did not read patent applications not to mention watching videoIt's applicable to normal cheap power cable indeed. This is obvious. To power individually addressable LED panels in huge open office or airport you don't need to run Cat6 cable - use same cable you do for AC mains. Advantage is - you can run just single cable for whole ceiling, yet can on/off/dim each panel individually.DALIneeds control cable which is extra installation costs. Voltserver allows conversion/retrofitting to smart lighting over existing cabling - this shall be considered as huge benefit.Will they succeed - this is good question. I hope they do because DC power delivery to modern loads is obvious path, more effective than AC. Just arcing and other safety issues shall be solved and this is what their tech is supposedly doing. Personally I wish them to succeed, I really hope they are not investor scammers

author: Cyberdragon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2018, 03:24:08 am
content: Something about their website also makes it look like they made it on Wix in about five minutes...

author: rrinker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2018, 04:20:25 pm
content: Lots of discussion, this is great. I don't think it can be debunked, per se. Unlike Solar Freakin' Roadways, these guys DO have something that works, not merely a disco floor that draws more power than it will ever generate from sunlight. How WELL it works - unknown as of yet. It's not a client I get to much, if at all, so I still haven't seen the installation in person. It's only been a few weeks, but they aren't rushing to replace it yet, so it must be doing the business. Is it cost effective? The client was convinced - I will also add, we did not sell this to them, our part comes in getting the data to the downstream devices and configuring them. If it's used at the customer site I think it is, running additional wiring is a very labor intensive task - the building is poured concrete and cement block.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 03, 2022, 01:48:25 am
content: Revising old thread because someone just pointed out this on Twitter and I was looking at doing a debunking video.Seems like:a) They have real professional level stuff that's been installed in large commercial installationsb) They are leveraging the fact that in certain places you can't install the usual power wiring, or power and data together due to regulations, and they have a niche solution to put usable power over what's legally classed as "data" cabling.Where the bullshit comes in is comparing it to PoE and how it's going to revolutionise everything. Clearly it's not. They use 18AWG cable to transport the power they are claiming, they can't use existing CAT5/6 cable.So I guess nothing to bust here really?Obviously if you could install normal mains cabling you'd just do that, no need for any of this pantented niche wankery.

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2022, 02:14:20 am
content: The whole pulsing thing sounds stupid ... but the idea of a powerbus which determines mA range shorts by communicating the received power and comparing it with the send power (or lack of ACKs from the receiver) is interesting. Finally a system which can protect you from a two handed blunder.It might allow you to declare a 330V DC wire voltage band 1.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 03, 2022, 02:30:51 am
content: Quote from: Marco on January 03, 2022, 02:14:20 amYeah but you can't get millions in venute funding without some patented techno-babble solution.

author: AlbertL
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2022, 01:47:23 pm
content: This would be a great way to power and network your Theranos "Edison" machine!

author: ogden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 03, 2022, 09:11:33 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on January 03, 2022, 01:48:25 amWith same success one can label other building automation tech like Dali, KNX as niche wankery. Seeing slow adoption rate and way too high pricing, I do not expect this product to steal huge market share, if any. Do not look like investment scam, nothing to debunk. Well... other than blahblah aboutprice comparisonto existing (AC+signalling_wires) products.