Living-Room Lighting Project, US. (Need Ideas And Opinions) LED's, worth it? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / projects

author: Undweeber
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2015, 12:41:27 am
content: INTRO: Hey guys, decided to start saving on energy about 2 years ago, slowly switched all ~75W incandescent bulbs to 24-26W spiral Neutral White/Warm CFL's, I am very happy with them, they work well, none of them have any delay except one bulb that is cold white, i have no problem with them heating up as it takes literally 10-15 seconds.FAB: Then world started the LED fab, but wherever I look, all I see is crappy Chinese made/assambled LED's, eg. at Wallgreens there are 9W variants, which are equivalent to 40W Incandescent, that is too weak for my apartment rooms as I have one central sealing lamps. The only lamps worth looking at for me would be 15-20W, but then again, they will be absolutely huge, too big to fit anywhere, they will contain drivers inside that will also annoyingly heat up, and a lot of people report them breaking within 3 months instead of billion thousand hours like manufacturer rates them.Another concern I have about these is that while CFL's and Incandescent needed expensive machinery and experienced staff, the LED's are more likely to be assembled by CCLF (Chinese Child Labor Force) somewhere in the basement and shipped off to US where they are branded and sold, I have nothing against that, however adding one to another, I see why these lights fail so much.QUESTION: There are very reputable LED manufacturers that make absolutely amazing lights like Cree or Osram, their lights cost fraction of the price, and the light output just one lamp can create is absolutely insane, can someone guide me to a cool project using good LED's for house lightening that would be more efficient than using stupid bulbs? and if the total output will be less than what I currently use - combo of two CFL's for a large living room totalling in ~50W it would be great, I have 4 power outlets in 4 corners of the room, and I would like to have wall mounted lights, as per ability to turn them off remotely will be a different thread, for now I need some sort of ideas for this project. Buying wall lights is very costly here, lamps I looked at all cost minimum of $100, and all use crappy LED'sCONCLUSION:1. Rant about crappy LED's2. Asking for idea to use up to 4 outlets (can be less) to light up the living room, in less than 50W using reputable LED's, would it be more power efficient than my current setup of 2 CFL's?

author: georges80
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2015, 01:37:26 am
content: You're in the US. Go to HD/Lowes etc. Cree has some great LED screw in bulbs - choose the colour temp you want, their warm whites are VERY nice.I've been running them in all the fixtures in our home that are on for more than a few mins per day (some are on for at least 6 hours per day) and had ZERO failures over the past 1 - 2 years that I've been using them. Instant on, instant full output. Can be dimmed. Come with several year warranty. Reasonably price. Hard to go wrong...I've replaced most of what were CFL's with the Cree LEDs, CFL's are evil.cheers,george.

author: rickey1990
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2015, 02:37:10 am
content: Id say led lights have got better, alot more have covers over the metal plate where leds are soldered on top off, also there bright and low power, heres me running 4 off a camera flash circuit with a AAA Battery, okay the battery doesnt last more than half hour but its not bad.

author: ajb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2015, 03:05:49 am
content: I'll second the Cree suggestion. Around here the local utilities subsidize certain makes/models of LED bulbs, so the Cree 40W and 60W equivalents are <$5 each, which is almost as cheap as the crappy brands.

author: Cubdriver
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 02, 2015, 03:56:39 am
content: I'll third that suggestion. Get thee to the Home Depot and take a look at what they have. (Around here in CT, HD seems to have a better selection of LED replacement bulbs than Lowes.) I have an assortment of the Philips and Cree ones in warm white, and am very happy with their performance so far. Most are the 60W equivalent ones, though there are a few 40s and some of the higher ones too. I also have a bunch of their Eco-Smart (IIRC) 65W equivalent can light replacements, those too are working very well so far. All are dimmable.-Pat

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2015, 04:22:09 am
content: If you are happy with CFLs you should be very, very happy with the LED lights. I found CFLs marginal, with weird output vs time responses and life far, far lower than advertised. In one head to head comparison I replaced almost half of the incandescent bulbs in a bathroom/makeup area with CFLs. Eight pricey CFL bulbs. The incandescent bulbs were of random ages as the installation had been in place for well over a decade. All of the CFLs failed before the first old incandescent bulb failed. All failures occurred within a year or two of installation. While I didn't ever keep records, my overall impression of CFL life was that it was roughly comparable to incandescent life. Including the behavior of having outliers that last seemingly forever. One CFL bulb installed in the late 1990s was still going strong when removed from service in 2013. It is a large 100W equivelant bulb and currently I have no fixtures that can readily house it, so it sits in the spares bin.The LED bulbs have been fabulous. Instant on, no gradual fade up or fade down, no flicker. Dimmable (although some show some color shift on dimming. Not a real issue as the incandescants gave major color shifts on dimming and we all got used to that.) And no failures in the first two years of life. Problems could crop up down the road, but the lack of infant mortality bodes well. Probably have 20+ installed. This is a mix of Phillips, Cree and some other brands. Costco specials. Drugstore specials. Sizes from 40W equivelant to 100W equivelant.I am also experimenting with using LED light strips as very compact lighting in a room with limited headroom. Using the cheapest stuff I can find. People have given good reports using them in trailers, and they are working for me so far, but not enough time to really say much. The hardest thing, unsolved so far, is coming up with a spouse approved decorative installation. My best plan so far involves many feet of custom molding. I can make it but it will involve making bushels of sawdust and has only received a grudging head nod from the judge.

author: mariush
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2015, 08:57:52 am
content: In bathrooms, be very careful about the CRI of your led lights... cheap LED lights have a CRI of 70-75 which "distorts" the colors, so if you have a girlfriend(s) or wife using makeup, using such bulbs may not be such a great idea.CFL lights also have a poor CRI but they're better than cheapo led lights, good CFL ones are usually hovering at around 80-85.

author: rdl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2015, 06:39:30 pm
content: I've been switching to LED steadily over the last couple of years. I only have one incandescent still in use that's not in an appliance. It's in a closet that's rarely opened. I have a 3 watt Philips that's used as a nightlight mostly. It's going on four years. The incandescents I used to put in that fixture would burn out every 2 or 3 months. I haven't had a LED bulb fail yet.In some areas Home Depot is selling Philips 60 watt equivalents for $1.97 and I bought a Cree 9 watt floodlight for $3.97 there yesterday.

author: Cyberdragon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2015, 07:37:32 pm
content: I prefer filament LEDs. They look somewhat like incandescents and can have exactly the same color and intensity too, you wouldn't know the difference.

author: ajb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2015, 08:24:08 pm
content: Quote from: mariush on December 02, 2015, 08:57:52 amCree has a line of special high-CRI LED bulbs, but they're substantially more expensive than the standard spec bulbs for equivalent brightness and at least in my area aren't eligible for the utility subsidies. Frankly I find the standard Cree bulbs perfectly pleasant in the spectral department and don't feel any need for anything better. There's been a huge amount of effort put into LEDs for illumination over the last decade, so except for very niche applications I'd say that LED color rendering is pretty much a solved problem, at least among the good brands. With cheapo eBay or no-name drugstore LED emitters and bulbs, of course, all bets are off.The makeup point is interesting and worth noting, but if you need special bulbs in your home to avoid looking ghoulish, what are you going to do when you leave the house and go someplace where somebody else picks out the bulbs? Any time you create something under different lighting than that under which it will be viewed you risk trouble. Stage designers have known this for a long time, ever since colored filters came into use in stage lighting, and the pigments and dyes used in scenic paints and stage makeups are deliberately formulated to avoid strange color shifts under different lighting spectra. The advent of LED stage lighting fixtures makes the challenge a bit more acute, and is part of the reason you see high-end manufacturers using up to seven different wavelengths in their color-changing LED fixtures.

author: Cyberdragon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2015, 09:07:31 pm
content: You don't need to worry about the color spectrum unless you actually want to change it. If you want to replace non-LED lights with LED lights you can get them in exactly the same color as the old bulbs (for incandescent and fluorescent). It's just a matter of finding the right color, you don't need to revolve your decor around the weird and awful colors of cheap LEDs.EDIT: Ergo, buy good LEDs and you should be fine. They don't have to be too expensive but get ones with the right light output. Cheap LEDs can hold some other nasty surprises like dark spots from the internal structure blocking the light.

author: kaz911
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2015, 10:58:33 pm
content: If you have 12v Halogen's now - then I find Philips Master series the best replacement - they have compensation built in for older transformers. If you have older transformers modern LED's might not have enough power to actually load the old transformers enough to start up - so Philips have the Master series for that issueElse you might have to change transformers as well.For 110/220v I like the Philips Master Series as well. They have " lower end " versions - but we are talking $1-$2 in price difference - but a heck of a lot longer warranty on Master Series (at least here in the UK)Warm White 2700k 80+ CRI is the best for normal halogen replacements. 3000 k's are to blue white for me and does not look like normal halogen lights. But many still call them Warm White.... But your GF/BF/better half will not like them in the bathroom

author: rdl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2015, 11:20:48 pm
content: Somebody needs to make a smart bulb that can change it's color temperature based on time of day.

author: ajb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2015, 11:57:54 pm
content: Somebody actually does make bulbs with adjustable color to mimic the redward shift you get when dimming incandescent bulbs. One of my (temporarily back-burnered) projects is a room light/sunrise alarm clock that will use warm and cool LEDs to provide a bright wakeup light and the shift to warmer tones later in the day and into the evening. Need to get back to that once the holiday light projects are squared away.

author: calexanian
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 03, 2015, 03:34:30 am
content: Not having read all the posts, but my two cents based on a little experiment I did this weekend. The regular old light bulb shaped LED's you buy at the name brand store such as Cree are really good quality. In some rooms I like the yellow soft white and in my lab i really like the bright daylight. It actually has just a touch of blue in it. Way better than any of the modules where you can actually see the individual LED's. It seems that the bulb around it, be it either plastic, or glass has a filtering effect that makes the light much more pleasant.

author: station240
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 03, 2015, 04:52:32 am
content: I've got Mirabella brand screw in LED bulbs, the oldest is 2 years old and still working perfectly.But agree, it would be nice to just be able to buy a light fitting with the PSU inside, and the LED itself screws in. Rather than buying an off the shelf fixture, and retrofitting it. Maybe you could look at what is available as 12/24V LED lights for caravans etc, and add a DC supply to that.

author: Undweeber
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2016, 11:41:18 pm
content: Quote from: ajb on December 02, 2015, 03:05:49 amthis is big news to me, in NYC we don't have any subsidies on lightbulbs, they state energy efficient etc, but all of them are sold for $20-$30Quote from: Cubdriver on December 02, 2015, 03:56:39 amFine ill go to HD, gotta buy some stuff there anyway, thanksQuote from: mariush on December 02, 2015, 08:57:52 amgood point, i read that highest cri lights are those that have red and blue/violet leds mixed together or something like that, that only they provide the best "cri"Quote from: station240 on December 03, 2015, 04:52:32 amnot a bad idea actually, and it is very annoying, because those lights with PSU inside them are much more expensive, yet the lights they come with are hard to find, or chinese knockoffs, and dont produce much light, ill check out what HD has, because I went to a local store kept by chinese, and everything they had was VERY overpriced for the wang bang shoddy job on manufacturing of powder metal lamps with power supplies dangling about all made in china, yet prices were $100+

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2016, 12:03:19 am
content: ALL of the CFLs I have ever seen were crap! Long warm up times are simply unacceptable.We just bought a house with about 25 can lights plus the usual fixtures here and there. We have converted all of them to LED lamps we picked up at Lowe's or COSTCO. They work well, the color is fine and the color rendition is excellent. All of them are using Cree LEDs.We cut down on the energy used for lighting and the internal heat gain from the fixtures so we save a bit on HVAC.We still have to do something about the exterior fixtures. Some are LED but most are PAR38 flood lamps.

author: nfmax
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2016, 06:45:04 am
content: Quote from: station240 on December 03, 2015, 04:52:32 amGiven that it's usually the power supply that fails in high efficiency lights, what I would like to see is a range of luminaires with the LEDs built in, and a plug in replaceable PSU!

author: Cubdriver
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 19, 2016, 07:20:36 am
content: Quote from: nfmax on August 19, 2016, 06:45:04 amI'm inclined to think that a large part of the power supply failures in the LED lamps designed to fit into the 'normal' A19 pear-shaped form factor for use in existing fixtures is that their design must be compromised due to the limited space available to house them. Granted the bean counters trying to squeeze every last cent out of the manufacturing costs is also a driver, but I'd like to think that given a bit more space and freedom for better layout, heatsinking and perhaps physically larger, better quality components that the reliability of the power supplies could be improved. Additionally, in this case the power supply would now be part of the fixture itself and more or less a permanent thing, rather than being incorporated into a part that is intended to be removable easily replaced and as inexpensive as porrible. That fact might also prompt the manufacturers to shoot for better operating margins and improved reliability so that their fixtures don't get a reputation as being pieces of failure-prone crap.-Pat

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 05, 2016, 04:50:40 am
content: Still doesn't make sense to make the power supply (even if done in a high reliability design) a permanent part of the fixture while making the LEDs, which will last far longer, replaceable.While it will be a while before we know the real reliability of these LED bulbs, they have already been around long enough to know it will be pretty darned good. I haven't seen a failure yet. Unlike the compact flourescent fiascos where only a tiny fraction actually lasted longer than incandescants.The cost of LED lamps is low enough and their lifetime long enough that it actually is starting to make sense to make them a non replaceable part of the fixture. It will take some time before attitudes change on that, but it will make some interesting design options open up.