New oscilloscope for work and play - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / beginners

author: neurophizzy
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: April 30, 2014, 03:51:11 am
content: Hi All, I found this forum (and awesome vlog!) in my search for a new oscilloscope. Given the huge amount of knowledge, this should be an easy comparison, right? Turns out, for my applications, I'm having a hard time deciding. Maybe you all could help?I need a new scope for work (I teach at a university, but neurophysiology, not EE), where I will need to make simple devices: small audio amps with noise suppression, LED drivers, etc. All analog for now, but I may branch out in the future. Before, I've used old analog scopes, but I don't have any working ones anymore that weigh less than 40 pounds. I have a bit of cash to spend on it, but $2000 is about my limit. I don't think I would need anything above 100 MHz. Also, probably no need for mixed signal capability. But I do want the scope to be able to capture transient signals well, be responsive (the BK have a weird lag when changing the time base), have a nice interface, a good screen, and an overall good feel. Colored knobs are always a plus.In the teaching lab we use BK digital scopes, which I hate. I only tolerate them because most of the data visualization/ storage/ analysis is done by an A/D converter and software. Everyone in my field at work tells me to get a Tektronix, since that's all they use. Poking around forums gives me pause, though. I'm comparing the Tektronix DPO 2000 series with the Agilent DSOX 2000 series, and my first impressions from watching and reading are:Agilent DSOX 20XX:Reputed good quality, but I really hate that a chunk of the screen is permanently in menu mode. Is there any fix for this? Also, as per the review, I don't like to have extra buttons that can do nothing but tell you to buy a higher model number. Do I really need 50K waveforms/sec?Tektronix DPO 20XX:Tektronix, just like everyone tells me to get. No unused portion of the screen. Blue color theme. No unused buttons. But, what is "digital phosphor", and do I really need it?And, do I really need 4 channels for relatively simple analog circuits?Maybe I'm being too superficial, but I think that if Agilent just changed their display to full screen, I would get it.Thanks for the feedback.

author: KC0PPH
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 30, 2014, 03:59:35 am
content: Got a Tek 2465 and have not looked back... Its an analog, but i think its the best one (that is not huge) on the market... And it triggers nicely at over 550Mhz (Rated is 300Mhz).

author: mjkuwp
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 30, 2014, 04:02:42 am
content: RigolIf you poke around these forums more you will find plenty of references about how Tektronix on the low end is quite out of date and even Agilent is being passed by Rigol. Of course....every application is different. I am presently shopping for a scope in the 2000 USD to 3000 USD dollar range. I am doing embedded work, battery powered sensors, spi, i2c.I am waiting for Rigol 2000 series to add mixed signal. If you don't need Mixed signal the Rigol 2000 series may work for you.

author: pickle9000
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 30, 2014, 04:08:59 am
content: Do you have a list of features?Screen sizeVideo out (for presentations)Waveform update rateSerial decoding

author: jeremy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 30, 2014, 04:19:55 am
content: My impression of the opinion around here is that the low cost Tek digital stuff is not very cost effective on a features per dollar basis. The Agilent 2000 series is a solid option, but it is getting a bit behind the competition at the moment and is inherently limited due to the sample memory being baked into the MegaZoom ASIC.Add my vote for a rigol DS2000 or DS4000.

author: nowlan
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 30, 2014, 04:37:03 am
content: See if the university has any relationship with manufacturer, for discounts etc.

author: mtdoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 30, 2014, 05:24:29 am
content: Quote from: neurophizzy on April 30, 2014, 03:51:11 amWelcome. I think I can relate to where you're coming from. In the 1990s I taught neurophysiology as well. I ran an undergraduate neurobiology teaching lab at UC Berkeley that used Tek 2200 series scopes. Now, after a career change ( medicine) - I've come back to electronics as a hobby.As others have said, Rigol is your best bang for your buck. A 20xx series scope will likely more than meet your needs. Easy hack to take a ds2072 up to 200 or 300 Mhz if you're really wanting to getfull value for your money. Dave has a review of this scope (see past episodes list) and Martin Lorton just did an exhaustive 2 part review as well (seehere)Of course it's always nice to have an analog scope around as well and a Tek 2200 series in good condition can be had on ebay for a couple of hundred dollars...

author: theatrus
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 30, 2014, 06:15:57 am
content: Make sure to factor in Agilent's good educational discount. I'd suggest the 3000X series if you can afford it, otherwise the Rigol DS2000 or even the 1000Z 4 channels (low sample rate).

author: neurophizzy
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: April 30, 2014, 05:56:07 pm
content: Thanks for all the great suggestions, especially since they were not what I expected. Great stuff!Quote from: mtdoc on April 30, 2014, 05:24:29 amOK, now I know I'm in the right place! You definitely know where I'm coming from. In the late '90, I was a grad student taking those kinds of classes (at Cornell). I probably know some of the people you worked with.That makes it especially interesting that you recommend Rigol 20XX series. Would you worry about firmware issues? Hardware durability and build quality? Waveform capture rate? Or should I resign myself to the fact that I can't get a digital scope to "feel" like an analog unless its super-fast and over $4000 USD?Here is a bit more on what I'm looking for:Quote from: pickle9000 on April 30, 2014, 04:08:59 amScreen size should be 7" or more (and it does bug me that Agilent's UI blocks a chunk of the window). I don't need video out, nor do I need serial decoding for now. I don't have a good feel for waveform update rate, I suspect the digital scopes I've been using have a terrible one. After watching the excellent videos suggested here, I think this could be important. I don't think memory depth will be an issue for me with any of the scopes I'm looking at. An, crucially, I still can't decide if I need 4 channels, or if 2 will do.I'll check for discount pricing, but I'd like to settle on one or two models before going to the manufacturers. While I'm not spending my own money, I will have to be the one working with the equipment, so I need to like it. However, the overall budget is limited so more scope = less other important stuff.Thanks for all the feedback!

author: electronics man
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 30, 2014, 06:46:44 pm
content: Do you need a function generator, then if so you could consider the rigolds2xx-s

author: neurophizzy
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: April 30, 2014, 07:09:13 pm
content: Quote from: electronics man on April 30, 2014, 06:46:44 pmNo, I have a basic one and it's low on my list of scope feature priorities.

author: PedroDaGr8
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 30, 2014, 08:23:35 pm
content: I'm going to pile on and say that the rigol would be the best performance/$ scope for you as well. Rigol makes Agilents 1000-series oscilloscopes for them if you are worried about built quality.That being said, check into the types of educational discounts you get. These can often be pretty substantial. Then once you know what your out-the-door price would be for the various scopes you can make a much more informed decision.Frankly, while you might not currently need serial decoding and other features its better to have them and not need them than to need them and not have them.

author: pickle9000
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 30, 2014, 09:17:53 pm
content: Here is an awesome video Dave did. It compare an older entry level DSO to a modern sub 1000 dollar DSO. You need not empty your pocketbook to get some very nice features.I'm not saying buy it, just look at the features you can get.

author: PedroDaGr8
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 30, 2014, 10:06:24 pm
content: I also forgot to mention that you can check out the Agilent Used store on ebay for some discounts. This is an official agilent channel for off-lease stuff. They do take offers. Some people have negotiated pretty good deals here with them. Sometimes it takes an email instead of the submit offer button. Also, if you can't get the price way down you can get them to throw in options such as higher frequency, other decodes, etc. They only have one option close to your price point right now:MSO-X2024A- 4 channels + 8 channel Logic Analyzer 200Mhz 5yr warranty $2421-shipped before any offers. You might be able to get it close to your $2k price point. Remember use your educator status to your advantage here. Exploit it for max value.But since its a used store, stuff comes in and out at a decent rate.

author: neurophizzy
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: May 08, 2014, 02:18:38 am
content: OK, I've done a ton more searching and I'm close to a decision, thanks to all your help. Turns out that Agilent does not offer educational discounts on the DSOX2000 series, but it's still a strong contender for my purposes. I've also decided that what is really important right now is something with as close to an analog feel as I can get, whether it be from waveform update rate, rise time, or whatever. If needed I can upgrade bandwidth later within the limits of the scope.So, I have a final test matchup that I hope will decide it for me, what do you all think?Assuming cost is not a factor(I know, big assumption, but pretend they are the same price), which of the following would you choose: a Rigol DS2000 series, or an Agilent DSOX 2000 2 channel series, given the same bandwidth and same add-ons? For example, would you choose the Rigol DS 2072A (2 channel 70 MHz), or Agilent 2002A (2 channel 70 MHz)? Why?Thanks!

author: echen1024
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 08, 2014, 03:59:22 am
content: In terms of features and bang/buck, Rigol kills the Agilent. However, with the reported 15-25% educator discount the Agilent comes to a little over $1k, or with 25%, $9443, which is a very good price. The Agilent definitely feels much smoother and more responsive, much closer to an analog oscilloscope while the Rigol (DS1000Z, not sure about 2000) has that lag. Regarding DPO, you will want that. The Rigol's, Agilent's, all have that. It is like on your analog scope, the parts that appear more frequently are mapped brighter, while less frequent events are dimmer.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 08, 2014, 04:40:46 am
content: Quote from: neurophizzy on May 08, 2014, 02:18:38 amFor everday use just looking at signals and general probing, I'd pick the Agilent. It's a tad faster, and I think is just nicer and easier to use, exactly what you want for general use. The Rigol has more bang-per-buck by far though, and has that excellent 500uV/DIV range.If I was equipping my lab from scratch, and it was my money, I'd pick Rigol as it's more versatile.

author: menimitz
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 08, 2014, 04:56:35 am
content: What do you guys think of the -S option for the Rigol 2072A? Is the integrated signal generator worth the extra cost? The scope goes from the $840 to $1200.

author: ejeffrey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 08, 2014, 05:11:09 am
content: Quote from: neurophizzy on May 08, 2014, 02:18:38 amWho did you ask? Maybe try a different distributor. I have definitely purchased DSOX2000 series with an education discount in the past, and it is listed on their educational discount page:http://www.home.agilent.com/agilent/editorial.jspx?ckey=1336060&id=1336060&nid=-11143.0.00&lc=eng&cc=PTAnyway, I haven't used the Rigol 2000 series, but I can certainly say that the Agilent DSOX 2000 is a pleasure to use. The controls are responsive, the display is excellent, and the controls are well laid out.

author: neurophizzy
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: May 08, 2014, 05:30:43 am
content: Quote from: ejeffrey on May 08, 2014, 05:11:09 amI talked to an Agilent "application engineer", via live chat from their website. He immediately knew what I was talking about but apparently checked and said that this series was not eligible. He arranged for a supplier to get me a quote, which was just list price. Would I be better off contacting suppliers directly, and asking for a discount? Maybe I should talk to sakes again and point them to their own website?

author: madshaman
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 08, 2014, 01:56:56 pm
content: Quote from: KC0PPH on April 30, 2014, 03:59:35 amI can visualise (and trigger on) a sinewave up to 1.2Ghz (10vpp iirc) with mine (highly attenuated and a bit shakey trigger-wise mind you); I have a 2467b and a 2465b, but both are on the repair pile at the moment and I haven't tried this experiment with either, I'm wondering if they could do a little more.If anyone's *really* interested, I could post pictures.

author: neurophizzy
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: May 08, 2014, 10:14:59 pm
content: Quote from: ejeffrey on May 08, 2014, 05:11:09 amThanks for the link, it turns out that TEquipment.net is willing to offer an educational discount on Agilent DSOX2000's. However, the sales guy is pushing the new Siglent SDS2000 series, and I've gotta say they look good! Too many choices! Help!Anyone have any experience with something like the Siglent SDS2074? I can;t find many reviews, especially in comparison to the Rigol or Agilent 2000 series.

author: mtdoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 08, 2014, 10:39:24 pm
content: Quote from: neurophizzy on May 08, 2014, 10:14:59 pmIn case you weren't aware. Tequipment offers a 6% discount to EEVblog members on all equipment.

author: echen1024
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 08, 2014, 11:03:17 pm
content: Quote from: neurophizzy on May 08, 2014, 10:14:59 pmLike the Rigol, the siglent is much more feature rich. In terms of usability and overall look and feel however, agilent works better. it just feels faster and more responsive.

author: neurophizzy
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: May 09, 2014, 08:41:00 pm
content: OK, I just put in an order for.... the Agilent DSOX2004A. Thanks so much to all of you for all the incredibly useful advice.I chose this because1. I really wanted to have something as close in feel to an analog as possible, within my price range2. I didn't need a lot of options now, but I wanted the option to upgrade in future years if I branch out in my projects3. Analog channel # is one of the things that can't be retrofitted, thus the 4 channels4. I'd take ease of use and upgradeability over bandwidth, for nowTurns out Agilent is not so keen on educational discounts anymore, at least not for a single scope purchase in this model type. I only managed to get something like 13% off, but I'm not complaining.If you think I made good decision, let me know and make me feel good. If don't think so, can you pretend like you do?Thanks to all!

author: echen1024
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 10, 2014, 03:56:41 pm
content: Yes, the Agilent DSOX2004 is a good, solid scope. You might want to take advantage of the Ultimate Scope offer later on, as for $500, it unlocks ALL the options on your scope, e.g. segmented, serial decode+trig, maybe even MSO.

author: iRad
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 11, 2014, 12:12:43 am
content: Quote from: echen1024 on May 10, 2014, 03:56:41 pmUnfortunately, no it does not unlock MSO on a DSOX scope. Still, it is very much worth the money.

author: ejeffrey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 11, 2014, 04:36:43 am
content: Quote from: neurophizzy on May 09, 2014, 08:41:00 pmEnjoy your scope! I think you are going to be happy with it.