Is PCBWAY intentionally using a fake low website price to later bait and switch? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: DigitalDeath
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2020, 03:18:43 am
content: I have tried numerous times to get them to do some projects for us and in every single instance I get a quote form the website and once I do all the work and send them the artwork they come back with a significantly higher price and without any changes. The artwork follows their guidelines to the letter and it's even panelized and vented and thieved. As a comparison, I have made about 60 projects with ALLPCB and except for one time with a slight increase they always honored the price quoted at the website.Is PCBWAY intentionally using a fake low website price to rank high on PCBSHOPPER.COM and snag customers that won't go to another supplier after having waited a couple of days for their confirmation?I just don't get it. If you're more expensive just admit it and stop making people waste their time and making them waste a couple of days until you check the artwork. We all know you get what you pay for so if you're more expensive and supposedly better then just admit it and be done. Let us customers make our own choices based on true information.I've been curious to see their quality and tried to give them a shot but man it's impossible when the prices almost double from the website quote. I'm giving up on them. I'm going to try JLCPCB next but they don't have matte black which is what we use but we'll see ho the gloss black looks like.OK rant off

author: 48X24X48X
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2020, 03:35:23 am
content: Used them once only because I dislike the part where they will change the pricing after submitting the order. And it's less automated like JLC. The website is convoluted and messy too. They can't follow your solder mask opening too while the same design made by JLC doing just fine.

author: DigitalDeath
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2020, 05:04:52 am
content: So your experience with JLC is good?. I'm trying them for the first time. The reason I'm looking for an alternative is the silkscreen registration of ALLPCB is off most of the times.How is the registration of the Silkscreen and soldermask with JLC?

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2020, 05:14:12 am
content: To my experience they are all hit and miss in terms of solder mask registration. Sometime the thin solder mask sleeves between IC pads just flake off. On the quality of silk print i cant recommend a winner either. JLC now has a DDP shipping option and was considerably less expensive on my last order so i went with JLC.

author: greenpossum
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2020, 05:15:37 am
content: Never had a problem with PCBWay. Or JLC for that matter. Or even any of the others, except where I didn't pay attention to file format (one wanted PTH and NPTH combined, another, actually most, couldn't handle X2 extensions). But then I only do simple stuff so what would I know.

author: phil from seattle
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2020, 05:29:11 am
content: I recently used them to do 10 2 layer boards with 18 ICs, 30 Rs, 13 Cs, 2 LEDs. Once I uploaded my gerbers, BOM and PnP file, there was 1 price quote that never changed and I paid after the quote. Satisfied customer. Will use again.Now, the whole $2 thing is an obvious come-on but I knew that going in and ignored it. Biggest cost item was DHL shipping but even that is cheap, considering.

author: ansonbao
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2020, 06:43:04 am
content: I am very sorry for the situation you met.Our engineer need to check your file before payment,if it need higher manufacturing technology so the price will change. You can find the reason in your PCBWay background.For example,if you choose Min Hole Size0.3mm,but we found 0.2mm hole in your file,so the price change.For advanced PCB or flex PCB,it is difficult to make the page price the same with actual price,we are also working hard to make it closer.

author: ansonbao
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2020, 06:54:11 am
content: Quote from: Bud on July 01, 2020, 05:14:12 amI am sorry for that,most of our clients are satisfied to our solder mast quality. I will communicate with factory to check it,thanks for your feedback.

author: DigitalDeath
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2020, 06:59:44 am
content: None of those applied here. All the holes were larger than 0.3mm, the spacing was larger than 6mil, there was nothing that was outside the norm. I even asked what was the reason and was told just that engineers adjust pricing with no explanations. Same with the previous boards that I tried with your company. I think it's just what I said before. You seem to lure people with a fake low price in the website and then you simply charge what would have been the correct price in the first place.Quote from: ansonbao on July 01, 2020, 06:43:04 am

author: ansonbao
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2020, 07:22:09 am
content: Quote from: DigitalDeath on July 01, 2020, 06:59:44 amCould you tell me your order number and I will check it what is wrong? All of our price changes will tell the reason in your PCBWay background.

author: DigitalDeath
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2020, 07:34:04 am
content: Quote from: ansonbao on July 01, 2020, 07:22:09 amThere is no point, that board has already been placed with a different supplier but give me your email and I will email you the info and a copy of my interactions. It's a shame that only posting publicly is that I get some reasonable response. Your customer service person is really not helpful. When you say the reason it's in the BACKGROUND I assume you mean the explanation is in my account's order info BACK END. If so can you please post a link to what you're referring to or a picture of where to click to get there? I've tried to look for it to no avail

author: ansonbao
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2020, 09:05:53 am
content: Quote from: DigitalDeath on July 01, 2020, 07:34:04 amMy mail is anson@pcbway.com. Yes,if price changed,there is a message next to your order explaining the reason for the price change.Thanks for your feedback,we have a lot of new sales now and will improve their service.

author: Wilksey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2020, 09:27:10 am
content: I've used PCBWay a few times (before they started sponsoring all of YouTube's tech channels) and I never had an issue, the last few years my requirements have changed and I do more design and let the people I do the work for order the PCB's, I had good experience with PCBWay, everything lined up and worked, silk was a but fuzzy, but cost vs quality was still higher than expected so I had no issues.I think it helps having someone represent the company on a forum like this as sometimes speaking to customer services isn't the easiest thing in the world, especially if they are in another country and speak another language, I have had to wait weeks before now for a response from a Chinese manufacturer (or parts not PCBs) for some simple information that is not on the datasheet, so at least there is someone that we can go to for enquiries.Just my 2p's worth of experience with PCBWay.

author: rea5245
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2020, 10:58:31 am
content: Quote from: DigitalDeath on July 01, 2020, 07:34:04 amYes there is a point! Please post your order number here and let PCBWay answer here!You've made a very public attack on PCBWay. People here have read your post and responded to it. It's only fair that you let us see PCBWay's side of the story. Post your order number, let Anson look it up and let him try to explain to us why the price changed.- Bob

author: DigitalDeath
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2020, 11:30:52 am
content: Quote from: rea5245 on July 01, 2020, 10:58:31 amWhat makes you think that I can prevent him from posting here after he reviews the emails?. Your implicit accusation that I'm somehow trying to avoid that is pretty stupid when you think about it and realize there's nothing I can do to prevent that. It's just that I gave up on them and don't want to deal with this issue anymore. Think twice before posting and showing ignorance of how the internet actually works.

author: rea5245
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2020, 11:58:25 am
content: Quote from: DigitalDeath on July 01, 2020, 11:30:52 amYou mean you're worried he'll lie about what you sent him as a design?Yeah, I guess that's a risk. But he also might tell the truth. Or he might admit they made a mistake.If he lies, you'd be able to rebut his claims, and it'll turn into "he said, he said". That's not great, but right now, it's "DigitalDeath said, PCBWay tried to respond, DD wouldn't let them."You're the one who made this public. The rest of us here don't know what to think. I, for one, would like to hear both sides of the story.- Bob

author: TK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2020, 12:10:06 pm
content: All the black PCBs I received from JLC were matte. Almost never had the price changed after submitting the order online, except a couple of cases where I had 2 designs on one Gerber (board and sub-board attached with a tiny piece of PCB)

author: SMTech
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2020, 02:15:04 pm
content: There is the other option, the guesstimate pricing is based purely on the dimension and other data you put in the form not actually based on your gerbers, if PCBWay are putting more effort into costing the board realistically (scoring, routing, drill sizes etc) then its more likely to change. There are lots of ways to cost thing up, stencils & assembly are similar, some places will use a pin/aperture count but other methods exist.We put a significant amount of our lower volume PCB requirements through PCBWay, no real issues with the pricing or quality. I'd say the silkscreen was pretty tidy too.The only issue I would say was fairly common across many Chinese PCB manufacturers is the cure on soldermask. Take an IPA impregnated wipe and give a board a good rub, if some the color comes off, its a good indicator this is an issue. Probably nothing you would notice if hand soldering, but put them through a wave and purely cured boards look a right state afterwards.

author: Rat_Patrol
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2020, 03:36:31 pm
content: I've used PCBWay many times. Other than some imperfections in the solder mask which required a bit of conformal coating to cover the copper, and the silkscreen not perfectly clear (but perfectly acceptable), the PCBs have been fine.The price had changed after engineering checks on me only when I had some vias smaller than .3 (my mistake) or other such oversight on my part.For prototype PCBs, I have no qualms.

author: jmelson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2020, 08:01:57 pm
content: Quote from: SMTech on July 01, 2020, 02:15:04 pmRight, when I use them, they want the Gerber files before the final requiest for payment. I always have the opportunity to cancel if I don't like that final request price. I have had them change the first quote price at least once, but they had a reasonable explanation for why the original quote was too low. And, their boards are SO CHEAP, that I usually pay more for shipping than the fabrication of the boards.Jon

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2020, 08:37:55 pm
content: Quote from: DigitalDeath on July 01, 2020, 11:30:52 amI think a lot of us are simply curious and would like to hear the complete story from both sides. It's not an accusation, no doubt you believe yourself to be correct, but there are two sides to any story and I'd like to hear everything before I make a judgement.

author: ansonbao
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2020, 02:20:45 am
content: Quote from: DigitalDeath on July 01, 2020, 07:34:04 amPleaes check the attachment picture,this is my personal account and one test order,it show the reason why the price changed.

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2020, 03:56:37 am
content: The price change (pic) seems to be from adding castellated holes, with a small recalc of board size.The automated Gerber inspection might have missed that, pads off the edge.I have had no problems with PCBWay and will continue to buy. Not sure why this forum is hostile to them, it seems odd.

author: shanekent
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2020, 04:41:24 am
content: I've worked with PCBWay a LOT over the past few years. I'm currently a "V3 Member" and on my way to a "V4 Member"... I've had a lot of good experiences with PCBWay and a few not-so-good experiences with them.That being said, I prefer not to use them when it comes to orders of boards >100pcs or any orders that need assembly. Their quality is fine, but their assembly lead times are pretty long and they charge more than almost all of my other Chinese-based suppliers. I've gotten designs from PCBWay, AllPCB, JLCPCB, and many more, but they all come out at higher costs with longer lead times than some of the suppliers that I've found that don't have flashy/fancy websites and quoting systems.I've had folks ask if I can share the suppliers I use that are cheaper than these options, but I prefer not to because they tend to raise their prices as they see a wider customer baseI've worked with a handful of folks on this forum already, so I'll offer it again: if you're looking for alternative suppliers for designs outside of the "fancy websites", then let me know and I can help you get quoted with some of my preferred suppliers. Basically, these suppliers appreciate my continued business so they offer me reduced rates which I can use for my products and projects. It's a win-win for all parties!Happy to help out!Feel free to check out my website for examples of designs that I've sent to these suppliers:https://shanekent.com/gallery-S

author: ansonbao
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2020, 08:09:37 am
content: I am glad to see that most of our customers are satisfied with our service.We still have a lot of areas for improvement. For example, the assembly time is too long. We tried many methods but the effect not good enough. Because it is very slow to buy components from abroad,and it need to customs clearance. If just for assembly,usually it will take about 5-7 days. Any good suggestion please contact with me anson@pcbway.com,thanks very much.Here I share an important message: We are going to upgrade material for free. We will upgrade Tg130-140 Fr4 material to Tg150-160. In the future, the $5 prototype order will enjoy the Tg150-160 material.Quality is always our first consideration.

author: mairo
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 02, 2020, 10:03:14 am
content: I have also used PCBWay many times without problems (JLC as well). Sometimes they do come with changed price, but as per Anson's picture there is always reason why that they correspond back. Apart of wrongly selecting the board parameters, one other reason for price change could be when there is large % of board solder mask opening and the finishing is from one of the expensive selections such as ENIG.

author: radar_macgyver
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2020, 01:22:29 pm
content: I've had price increases after review too, but they always told me why, and in many cases I could modify the design and re-upload the gerbers.Quote from: ansonbao on July 02, 2020, 08:09:37 amYou could have a list of 'preferred parts' on your website that are sourced locally and have lower lead time. I had placed assembly orders that got delayed because my BOM specified a ceramic capacitor from Digi-key, and it needed to get shipped around the world twice (lead time 25 days!)Another thing you could do is to offer DDP shipping. My most recent order is stuck at a DHL office because they need me to pay customs. DHL tried to reach my organization's shipping and receiving, which is working remotely and understaffed. I only found out because the shipment is more than a week late and I checked tracking. If the order was DDP, this could have been avoided, but PCBWay doesn't offer this (I asked my representative).

author: DigitalDeath
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2020, 02:09:03 pm
content: Quote from: ansonbao on July 02, 2020, 02:20:45 amI asked you to let it go but you couldn't leave it alone cause you thought I was lying. I asked you for this info in a private PM to not fan the flames anymore and your reply is putting it here to make yourself look good cause you thought I was lying. So you asked for it. Here's you being shamed publicly which I was trying to avoid. I had no intention of continuing this publicly so here you go, now you'll look like an ass by your own doing. Next time believe that your customers are telling the truth, the same goes to all the fanbois that though the same

author: DigitalDeath
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2020, 02:19:40 pm
content: Quote from: ddavidebor on July 02, 2020, 02:13:05 pmI can see you posted that when I posted the evidence that I was correct. Furthermore your assumption that I'm some newbie is not correct. I've been designing electronics for 40 years, have numerous US patents on my single name not one of these BS patent "collaborations" that most people get by piggybacking on someone else's work and without any true efforts. I probably have forgotten more electronic that you have learned in your entire career. I was designing millimiter wave defense electronics before you could walk and was part of the team that developed what most of you hilariously call LTE 20 years ago. I have worked on nuclear excitation devices and things that people can barely comprehend. So spare me the newbie BS and stop being a fanboi.

author: SMTech
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2020, 02:25:28 pm
content: Quote from: DigitalDeath on July 02, 2020, 02:19:40 pmSo you say, and yet here you are having a hissy fit like a stroppy hormonal teenager.

author: DigitalDeath
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2020, 02:31:27 pm
content: Quote from: SMTech on July 02, 2020, 02:25:28 pmSo now that I posted the evidence that I was right and you look like an idiot it's time to attack the person and ignore the issue. FYI that's called an AD HOMINEM attack and it's proof that you have nothing else to say but to insult the interlocutor. Here, from the Dictionary:

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2020, 02:33:55 pm
content: Quote from: MasterTech on July 02, 2020, 01:57:36 pmAs i said in my other post, JLC offers DDP option. Just received my order yesterday pain-free.

author: DigitalDeath
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2020, 02:36:57 pm
content: Quote from: MasterTech on July 02, 2020, 02:27:16 pmIf you believe a person my age is tearing down statues then you don't know history.People that are not liberal when young have no heart and people that are not conservative when old have no brain.

author: DigitalDeath
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2020, 02:39:04 pm
content: This conversation is a mute point. I already sent it to ALLPCB and I'm sending another project to JCL to try them.So far is looking pretty good with JCL. No surprises <knock on wood>

author: DigitalDeath
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2020, 02:44:39 pm
content: Quote from: Bud on July 02, 2020, 02:33:55 pmThanks for the information Bud but that's not an important issue in the US. I know in Canada it's huge but someone has to pay for the healthcare and the social net. We pay it in the form of high insurance premiums so we're in the same boat one way or the other.

author: asmi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2020, 02:47:17 pm
content: Quote from: MasterTech on July 02, 2020, 02:41:03 pmIt is country-specific. I also received stencils from JLCPCB a couple days ago. When you place an order, you can select DDP shipping option, in this case it adds taxes to your invoice.

author: asmi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2020, 02:58:40 pm
content: Quote from: MasterTech on July 02, 2020, 02:50:50 pmI don't exactly know how this works, but the big benefit for us is that we avoid paying DHL brokerage fees, which are rather random and at times don't make a whole lot of sense (like shipment of lesser value has higher fees than another one with higher value). Now we only pay sales tax for the order.

author: asmi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2020, 03:15:05 pm
content: Quote from: MasterTech on July 02, 2020, 03:04:53 pmMouser was offering DDP in Canada way before they opened an office here. That office BTW is just a few blocks away from my home

author: jancumps
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 02, 2020, 03:20:10 pm
content: You can predict the outcome of this post just by reading the title. It's set up to turn into a drama.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 03, 2020, 02:55:14 am
content: Chill out.These cheap prototype services exist because they are incredibly streamlined in terms of capability and labourIf you have a board that deviates from that even slightly then you are going to get charged more. Completely normal.Countless people have gotten the advertised price. If you didn't then it means there is something extra on your board they have to process etc, and they will charge for that.If you don't like PCBWAY then don't use them again, there are countless others.