AI to become your boss - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2019, 08:40:49 pm
content: NY Times article, June 23, 2019: "A Machine May Not Take Your Job, but One Could Become Your Boss""When Conor Sprouls, a customer service representative in the call center of the insurance giant MetLife talks to a customer over the phone, he keeps one eye on the bottom-right corner of his screen. There, in a little blue box, A.I. tells him how he’s doing.Talking too fast? The program flashes an icon of a speedometer, indicating that he should slow down.Sound sleepy? The software displays an “energy cue,” with a picture of a coffee cup.Not empathetic enough? A heart icon pops up.........."Full article link:https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/23/technology/artificial-intelligence-ai-workplace.htmlWe technologists here at EEVBLOG probably know well that "machine monitoring human" has been going on for a while, now even NY Times is noticing.Brave new world...

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2019, 08:53:27 pm
content: Quote from: blueskull on June 24, 2019, 08:50:40 pmYeah, but folks from NY Times are not exactly well informed when it come to technology.I for one would like cars to go back to just manage the function and let me decide. Yes, show me a warning, but stop this damn nagging. I don't know which one is worst. Wives, or cars when it come to nagging...

author: legacy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2019, 10:44:50 am
content: AI is good for a lot of stuff. For safely driving a car, for example.

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2019, 12:18:46 pm
content: Quote from: legacy on June 25, 2019, 10:44:50 amReducing self-driving car to an AI problem is a massive mistake (unless AI is considered as a meaningless buzzword which can mean any smart modern technology). Most if it is sensor technology, hardware design, and traditionalalgorithmicembedded software design.Modern AI is dumb enough to say that a garage door is a flat screen TV, and mostly irrelevant insafetyquestions. It's better suited in makingfunctionalchoices.

author: legacy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2019, 12:55:44 pm
content: Quote from: Siwastaja on June 25, 2019, 12:18:46 pmLike refusing to allow the driver to drive if he/she is clearly found drunk.Like warning the driver to stop, if he/she is found to be too tired to drive. This mostly applies to truck drivers.Like using a LIDAR to assist the driver during maneuvers; an eye with 360 degrees is better than two eyes with 120 degrees and a lot of blind corners.

author: MT
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2019, 03:21:18 pm
content: Quote from: Rick Law on June 24, 2019, 08:40:49 pmYet discussing that particular rabbithole topic on EEVBLOG is censored and shut down, i wonder why.My pet Rehearsal:AI have not passed the first requirements , cognitive reasoning and self awareness.Cognitive computing (whatever that is defined as such) refers to computing thats focused on reasoning and understanding at a higher level, often in a manner that is "inspired" by human cognition. It tries to deal with symbolic and conceptual information rather than just pure data or sensor streams, with the aim of making high-level decisions in complex situations, then add human feelings into that model and your in deep AI trouble and a off switch are needed and not human rights laws as some neo liberals claims they should have. No we need a firm Hitler like hand to theseveaponized AI machines that will try to kill us all!Cognitive systems often make use of variety of machine-learning techniques, but cognitive computing is not a machine-learning method per se. Instead, it is often a complete architecture of multiple subsystems work all together. Cognitive system suposed subset of A.I. that deals with cognitive behaviors associated with thinking as opposed to perception and motor control.Cognitive systems/computing is marketing buzz implying computing machines of today have AI therefore think.Utterly bull crap off course. Wicked/self trolled assumptions leads to similar conclusions.The point is, humans cant create AI in its full meaning unless human understand how self awareness comes to existence in the human brain to begin with, and we dont. Self awareness shows up around 2.5years old detected by the mirror experiment so how do you translate that into a non biological(i assume) machine that does that on its own.AI today is a buzz word based on many techniques such as neural networks, support vector machines, decision trees, Bayesian belief networks, k-nearest neighbors, self-organizing maps, case-based reasoning, instance-based learning, hidden Markov models and truck load of regression analysis, non is Artificially Intelligent, rather Artificially Pretending AP!QuoteTechnocratic World Order people would!

author: temperance
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2019, 04:00:28 pm
content: I can't wait for our government officials being replaced by AI. Some of their functions can be replaced by TTL logic anyhow.

author: legacy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2019, 04:06:06 pm
content: ... and suddenly the reality looked like the Philip K. Dick's tale "Vulcan's Hammer" (1960)

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2019, 04:12:46 pm
content: Quote from: Rick Law on June 24, 2019, 08:40:49 pmIf there is a job that an AI can and will take over in the not so far future it is a customer phone service representative IMO.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2019, 04:14:54 pm
content: Quote from: temperance on June 25, 2019, 04:00:28 pmInstead of strategic decisions for the coming week/month the AI will make decisions for the coming decades. I don't think we as humans would understand those decisions because they could negatively affect our present day life but they are necessary fir the future.I am thinking about environmentally issues and energy and resource usage etc.

author: temperance
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2019, 04:29:41 pm
content: Quote from: Kjelt on June 25, 2019, 04:14:54 pmIt depends on the model. Perhaps a model with some room for artificial lobbying might work in EU.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2019, 09:40:28 pm
content: Quote from: MT on June 25, 2019, 03:21:18 pmI mostly agree with that. Neural networks still model the brain very poorly, and it's not just about the number of neurons and connections (even though we may never be able to reach those numbers with any kind of computers, so we may never know). A lot of chemical processes happen and modulate neural activity, with many feedback loops, based on internal and external events. We don't really know how to model that. And that's just the beginning of what we know we don't know.Note that the proponents of this so-called "AI" couldn't care less about the intelligent nature of AI. Here "intelligence" is, as you said, just a buzz word. Pure marketing. So far, it works. It sells. But it's just a tool.Now leaving important decisions to AI is an interesting case. The relative "dumbness" of AI is actually its strength for many of its current applications, including this idea of using it as "managers". A "dumb" manager, only there to enforce a set of company's rules. No emotions, no pity. That would probably drive many workers away - while they have a choice. Someday their only choice may be to just accept it or be out of job. That is, if they are even allowed to remain jobless. Not sure about that either.Talking about this "dumbness", and "emotionless" factors: an obvious, correlated question is one of liability. When a machine is making a decision, now who is liable for the consequences? In a simple case such as autonomous vehicles, it can already prove very problematic. At this early stage, many people may be convinced that liability is on the shoulders of the car's manufacturers. I can bet you that it's going to be much more complicated than this soon enough. And when the "AI" part is much more "modular" than it is today, what will happen? Who will be liable? The vendor of the AI engine? The company that has trained the AI engine for specific tasks? The company that ultimately sells the product embedding it? The end-user? Now what when the AI engines can further train themselves during their operating time? Whoever becomes liable for what they become over time? Looks like it's bound to create many more problems than it would solve. Unless we switch to a world in which liability disappears altogether. Which in a way would make sense if every entity making major decisions is a machine. Sounds nice.Quote from: MT on June 25, 2019, 03:21:18 pmTechnocracy hasn't waited for AI. Just look at the EU. Hasn't it become almost a purely technocratic regime? At this point, replacing humans with machines at the european commission wouldn't make a big difference, and already very little difference at the european parliament as well. It's not all that far from being ready to be entirely managed by "AI".This, of course, is just my opinion.

author: windsmurf
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2019, 10:02:14 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on June 25, 2019, 09:40:28 pmSpiking Neural Nets are an attempt to more closely resemble the function of the brain.https://www.brainchipinc.com/products/akida-neuromorphic-system-on-chip

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2019, 01:22:36 am
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on June 25, 2019, 09:40:28 pmTrouble is if the "AI" is self-learning. In that case, you don't know if indeed it is "no emotions, no pity." It could have "self-learned" anything and you wont be aware of it - recall Microsoft Tay. It learned to be obnoxious and learned to be a bigot all in a days work.The boss-machine could have determined that Jane's performance is bad, but the machine knew it had earlier send the report to the upper boss that her husband John should be fired, and it might have learned from prior experience that firing the husband and wife together on the same day caused a lot of work disruption that day from the unreasonable humans doing something call protesting and the unreasonable humans knocked "me" over a few times. So the boss machine "feels" bad to fire a husband and wife team on the same day and decided not to act as expected but instead send a compliment of Jane to the top boss instead. Hey, if Tay can learn to be a bigot, the boss-machine can learn to be a liar. You don't know what it learned if the darn thing is self-learning.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2019, 01:51:36 am
content: The problem with neural nets is that they're trained using existing data and that this data carries all kinds of human bias within them. The neural net will be biased because the data it has been trained with was. Add on top the idea that AI and neural nets are impartial and you have a perfect storm of whitewashing years of bias with very little recourse. We've seenexamples of AI bias already and will undoubtedly see more in the future

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2019, 02:07:37 am
content: Quote from: Rick Law on June 24, 2019, 08:53:27 pm^^ So much this.I loathe modern cars, the times I've had to drive a rental I have been SO glad to get back into my own nearly 30 year old car. Proper manual gearbox, no nagging gadgets, far better visibility, much more engaging to drive.Modern cars are chock full of distracting gadgets, then they have more gadgets on top of those in order to try to assist the driver. What all these assistive gadgets end up being is a crutch that enables people to focus on anything but driving the car. It's a proven psychological phenomenon that if you free up the mind from one task it will quickly become bored and wander, engaging in the next most important task which these days seems to be fiddling with one's smartphone. When one has to focus on operating the vehicle they are much less prone to becoming distracted doing other things.Then there is the ridiculous styling fads, everyone is making these stupid crossovers, fake SUVs made on a car chassis, virtually identical looking vehicles by a dozen different makes. Gigantic wheels with thin tires that not only look stupid but make for a harsh ride and are exceedingly prone to curb rash. Huge tall side panels with swoopy roofs and gigantic pillars resulting in microscopic rear windows and piss-poor visibility, compensated for by yet another crutch, the now mandatory backup cameras. Slushbox in nearly everything, can't even get a proper gearbox in a lot of cars now, especially in the American market. Front ends that try to look aggressive and end up looking like an angry toy robot. I don't even know what I'll do if I ever really need to get a newer car, maybe some sanity will return as new fads come and go but I'm not counting on it.

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2019, 07:58:31 am
content: Quote from: legacy on June 25, 2019, 12:55:44 pmI think you proved Siwastaja's point, neither LIDAR nor alcohol sensors are AIMaybe the second one.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2019, 09:55:20 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on June 26, 2019, 03:44:36 amIt's called a train and people have been doing that for decades.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2019, 10:30:54 pm
content: Quote from: blueskull on June 26, 2019, 03:44:36 amThis is precisely NOT what one should try to do while driving any car. Tesla specifically says not to do this and implements features that attempt to prevent it.If you wish to work during your commute, do what I do and ride the bus. Otherwise you are endangering the lives of those around you by not focusing on operating your own vehicle. There have been multiple deaths already caused by the Tesla autopilot, fortunately so far they have only killed the driver of the Tesla and not an innocent driver in another car. Driving is a privilege and an activity which demands one's complete attention. A person who cannot abide by this has no business operating a vehicle.I have had one car destroyed, another damaged twice and multiple close brushes with injury or death due to distracted drivers. It has reached epidemic proportions and now results in as many deaths as drunk driving and continues to increase. Every single day when I'm on the bus I see people barreling down the freeway looking down at a smartphone in their lap and it makes me want to grab the phone and shove it down their throat.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2019, 10:46:27 pm
content: What happens when the autopilot malfunctions as has happened multiple publicized times though? His mind is elsewhere because "driving" the car requires so little mental engagement that the mind finds other things to engage in.Whatever the case I have zero interest in this, if I'm driving a car, I want to be *driving* the car, I rarely even listen to the radio, I like the sound of the engine.If I'm just commuting I'd rather be on the bus, nothing about the vehicle needs my attention, and if some distracted idiot hits it I don't care because it's a giant bus that will usually come out ahead due to physics and I don't own it anyway so I don't have to care if it gets damaged.

author: Electro Detective
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2019, 12:21:31 am
content: Not much use for AI bosses, they'll just stuff up worse than the current 'I' challenged bossesunless it's a GPS 'boss' voice bailing one out of a nest of unfamiliar streets and freeway turnoffs,speed and scamera heads up,and suggested detours because of pile up delays,mostly due to smartphone distracted fools not paying attention, whilst squinting and clicking 'Like' to some dumbass comment, childish meme,or ano one really caresphoto on FacepalmBook

author: SparkyFX
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2019, 12:34:53 am
content: Quote from: legacy on June 25, 2019, 10:44:50 amNope!Ok, the acute amongst us might argue that the car actually drove safely, but... the police was unable to stop it, because the AI does not recognize what these funny blue lights and the siren actually mean.I thought of fringe cases for self driving cars of people dressed like a distance marker at halloween or so. But ok, police, ambulance and firetruck are the more obvious case.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 27, 2019, 12:39:35 am
content: One day there is going to be a big movement to ditch all this technology. People will want real manual light switches, dumb cars, and a fridge that's just a fridge again.Reminds me of Will Smith in iRobot where he wears old school Air Jordan sneakers and takes manual control of his automated car.

author: windsmurf
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2019, 12:48:10 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on June 27, 2019, 12:39:35 amAnd they shall be called the "neo-Amish."

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2019, 12:52:42 am
content: And such stuff will be available at a premium price.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 27, 2019, 03:15:38 am
content: Quote from: Bud on June 27, 2019, 12:52:42 amWill the antitechers (that will be a thing, I'm naming it now) be the new age Hipsters?

author: Dundarave
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2019, 03:26:22 am
content: Quote from: windsmurf on June 27, 2019, 12:48:10 amOr we can resurrect the term "Luddite", since AI is sure to be held responsible for "taking away jobs".

author: Electro Detective
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2019, 10:07:48 am
content: Neo-Luddismis already here, let's see if they do better than the last mobThey have a better advantage this time because the internet can get the message across to many fence sitters, with lifestyle examples on Youtube etcdemonstrating a sort of happier existence without useless technology and computing bloatillasWindows 10 and MACmountains"Neo-Luddism is a leaderless movement of non-affiliated groups who resist modern technologiesand dictate a return of some or all technologies to a moreprimitiveREALISTIC level."

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2019, 01:15:44 pm
content: Ditching "AI" for many reasons, some of which we have talked about here, is NOT ditching all modern technologies. This kind of reasoning with absurdly simplistic generalization is exactly why we are going to have absolutely no control over our future. It's a fundamentally dishonest way of argumenting. I suggest reading "The art of being right", Schopenhauer.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2019, 04:24:09 pm
content: I'm a big fan of modern technology, but I want technology that makes my life better, not technology for the sake of technology. Modern powerful computers are great, connected things like environmental monitoring is very handy. GPS navigation is a lifesaver for people like me who have a lousy sense of direction. In cars modern fuel injection systems have resulted in powerful engines that are also fuel efficient and clean running, it is a massive improvement over the carburetors we lived with for decades.But today we also have a lot of tech for the sake of tech. There is zero reason for my dishwasher or refrigerator to be connected to the internet and I don't want software updates on a car. I keep my cars for a long time, the last one I replaced I had been driving for 17 years and I only replaced it because someone rear ended me and totaled it. Imagine what it will be like 20 years from now when all these cars will have what is effectively a 20 year old smartphone integrated into the dash controlling all the creature comforts. What a joke.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2019, 04:39:17 pm
content: Modern car spare parts are about 5 years guranteed.My colleagues BMW of 2014 was burglered last year and his media navigation system and airbag were removed.Insurance cie paid for the repairs unfortunately one of the parts of the media system were unobtainable and even 2nd hand sites did not have it."Probably the reason they took it from your car" the mechanic said.So naaah all cars after mid 90s are doomed to fail sometime.Modern cars have over 125 microcontrollers, are you going to backup the firmware of each one in case one fails?

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2019, 05:00:02 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on June 27, 2019, 12:39:35 amSome of that is already a thing, mostly in lifestyle/luxury items: Mechanical watches, classic "minimal" bicycles, vinyl records and turntables etc.. I am waiting for a resurgence of mechanical typewriters... (But maybe with internet connectivity so you can send tweets?)

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2019, 07:28:07 pm
content: Quote from: Kjelt on June 27, 2019, 04:39:17 pmAren't they required to provide parts for longer than that? I would be livid if such a new car needed a part that is NLA. A car should last 20 years *minimum*, it's a major investment.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2019, 07:40:59 pm
content: Quote from: ebastler on June 27, 2019, 05:00:02 pmI'm probably in the last generation to remember typewriters. I used to be fascinated by them as a child. I remember the secretary at school having one. My mum had several and bought be a toy one, which was easier for a child to type with, as the keys were much lighter. I suppose I was so interested, because I struggled with my handwriting, right from day one. There are youngsters around who will have never seen a typewriter.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2019, 09:42:31 pm
content: There are already some hipsters who are into typewriters but I don't think it's widespread.I remember when I was a little kid I loved to play with the electric typewriter at my mom's office. It has always impressed me that those work at all, one motor driving a mass of shafts and levers.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2019, 11:01:37 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on June 27, 2019, 07:28:07 pmRequired by who(m), enforced by who(m)?There are no regulations just as with modern tvs there are little spare modules, if they are gone and they can't fix it in the end they offer you an alternative car or big discount on a new one.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2019, 11:03:48 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on June 27, 2019, 09:42:31 pmAh good old days I remember the IBM typewriter with the rotating ballhead, then they made one with an RS232 interface. If I ever find one of those I probably will buy it, it was so far out of my financial reach in those old days. I do wonder if you can still get the inklints for them otherwise they are pretty useless.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2019, 11:27:31 pm
content: Quote from: Kjelt on June 27, 2019, 11:01:37 pmI thought it was a federal requirement but perhaps not.https://skeptics.stackexchange.com/questions/14049/are-auto-manufacturers-required-under-us-federal-law-to-provide-parts-for-a-setIt would not be difficult or unreasonable though, there is a whole bucket list of mandates around selling cars in a given country. Many countries also have strong consumer protection laws that enforce warranties. If you're a manufacture that wants to sell stuff in a particular country then you play by the rules or you'll have to earn your profit somewhere else.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 28, 2019, 08:26:43 am
content: Well a lot of mechanical parts are used on multiple generations of cars so it is not so bad to keep those at stock.Esp. Multimedia platforms are expensive and evolve rather quickly. If you look at the current generation of cars the entire dashboard are lcd panels, compare that to ten years ago when only a few cars had 6 or 7" only for navigation. So tough to keep all that relative expensive electronics in stock for that long.And as EE you know how hard it is to re-spin boards from ten years ago esp if your factory did not produce it (many and i mean many parts come from subcontractors)

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 28, 2019, 09:39:28 am
content: The whole computers and multimedia in cars thing is a worry. That type of electronics typically doesn't last as long as most cars do and when you factor in security and updates you know updates aren't going to be provided for the average lifespan of 15-20 years for a car. We can all talk about being more green and using less fuel, but when cars are designed with components that are bound to fail before the rest of the car it's all superfluous. Try asking your car dealership about this when you're looking at a new car. They'll regard both you and the question a novelty.

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 28, 2019, 04:04:24 pm
content: Quote from: legacy on June 25, 2019, 12:55:44 pmAll of which are prime examples of something considered polar opposite of "AI". Very classical simple pre-programmed algorithms with no variable run-time decision making. I was thinking about things like these, exactly - thank you for proving the point.Of course, today you can say that any system is "AI", as it's a nice buzzword.