Hakko Investigated By Californa Attorney General Right to Repair Violations - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / repair

author: KG7AMV
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 20, 2024, 08:04:07 am
content: This has been a battle for a While.The California Attorney General Investigation into Hakko for Violations of SB244 #RighttoRepair has started. I have been assured this is a matter of statewide significance. I Cannot wait for their reply I hope it will be better then the Better Business Bureau Reply's linked below. I expect the Oregon Attorney General to follow when Oregon's right to repair laws become effective Jan 1 2025.California SB244https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billNavClient.xhtml?bill_id=202320240SB24411-19-2024 California AG Letter to me, I cannot wait to see Hakko's reply to the Attorney General I hope it is better then the reply they gave to the Better Business Bureau claiming "industrial" LOL links below.I hope whatever they are hiding is worth it the penalties are rather harsh.42488.3. (a) (1) A city, a county, a city and county, or the state may bring an action in superior court to impose civil liability on a person or entity that knowingly violated this chapter, or reasonably should have known that it violated this chapter, in the amount of one thousand dollars ($1,000) per day for the first violation of this chapter, two thousand dollars ($2,000) per day for the second violation, and five thousand dollars ($5,000) per day for the third and subsequent violations.Phone Call With Hakko VP Chris Stuber they know they Must Comply. "reasonably should have known"https://youtu.be/AinjDSQnKlgThis is the "Malicious Compliance" Non-Repair Manual Hakko Provided.https://youtu.be/NPWd-xQcGzwhttps://www.stevenrhine.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/10/FM-203-Repair-Manual.pdfRossmanns VideosHakko Takes the L Aug 2021https://youtu.be/q9G3_CHtuskHakko When Right to Repair Laws Take Effect, Part 1https://youtu.be/652ibqTeYc0Hakko's Better Business Bureau Complaint Right to Repair Denial Letter From Hakko 08-16-2024https://www.stevenrhine.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/10/Hakko-BBB-Right-to-Repair-Denial-Letter-08-16-2024.pdfHakko's Better Business Bureau Right to Repair Denial Letter From Hakko09-24-2024https://www.stevenrhine.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/10/Hakko-BBB-Right-to-Repair-Denial-Letter-09-24-2024.pdfWeb Archive of Hakko right to repair support statement they removed form their site.https://kb.hakkousa.comhttps://web.archive.org/web/20240704185112/https://cc.bingj.com/cache.aspx?d=292088857923&w=muWIB3HaNrYrRd03ZmcUJ037pvKjaw3b

author: coromonadalix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 20, 2024, 09:33:52 am
content: ok i'm not good at thisBut here in Canada we can order parts relatively easy ? we extended the life of many Hakko products ?? unless many things have changed and i'm not aware ?But sure the "right to repair" ... I'm all for it

author: KG7AMV
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 20, 2024, 11:54:27 am
content: Quote from: coromonadalix on November 20, 2024, 09:33:52 amDocumentation, Tools, & Parts. That's all we ask for.(2) “Documentation” means any electronic or appliance product manual, diagram, reporting output, service code description, schematic, or similar information that is provided by a manufacturer to an authorized repair provider, or that is for use by the manufacturer if the manufacturer does not have any authorized repair providers, for purposes of effecting the services of diagnosis, maintenance, or repair of the electronic or appliance product.(7) “Tool” means any software program, hardware implement, or other apparatus made available by a manufacturer of an electronic or appliance product to an authorized repair provider for the diagnosis, maintenance, or repair of the product, including software or other mechanisms that provision, program, pair a part, provide or calibrate functionality, or perform any other function required to repair the product or part back to fully functional condition, including any updates.

author: Haenk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 20, 2024, 12:30:39 pm
content: Honestly, I think their "repair" is essentially swapping out complete parts.No larger company does component level repair, that's just too expensive. 2 hours of testing, repairing, testing again for a part that only costs 20 bucks in production is not going to happen.So they are not legally required to offer schematics and a component level repair guide. (At least that's my understanding.)However I would very much welcome this level of documentation, but I'm not sure if this even exists.

author: Ian.M
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 20, 2024, 01:13:29 pm
content: Blame US congress critters with no technical knowlage for the fairly toothless 'right to repair laws' I doubt that more than one in a hundred have ever picked up a soldering iron! From the point of view of an EEE technician doing component level repair, we need to be able to buy any custom PCB mounted parts used (e.g control pots or encoders, and pre-programmed MCUs or programmable logic) from the OEM or an approved supplier, at a price that makes compontent level repair viable vs board swapping. A schematic is always nice to have but most of us are used to working without one.Of course if the board swap is cheap enough - component level repair doesn't make any sense.

author: KG7AMV
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 20, 2024, 02:22:54 pm
content: Quote from: Haenk on November 20, 2024, 12:30:39 pmYea, that is fair and reasonable part.(D) If a manufacturer does not use an authorized repair provider, “fair and reasonable terms” means at a price that reflects the actual cost to the manufacturer to prepare and deliver the part, tool, or documentation, exclusive of any research and development costs incurred.Quote from: Haenk on November 20, 2024, 12:30:39 pmThey are required to make available Schematics, And the manufacture has schematics that almost guaranteed they designed and made the thing! If they did not should be disclosed who did so they can be obtained.There is no requirement for them to make a component level repair guide Just provide the documentation/tools listed.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 20, 2024, 02:34:12 pm
content: Does right to repair apply in a B2B enviroment?

author: KG7AMV
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 20, 2024, 02:43:20 pm
content: Quote from: Ian.M on November 20, 2024, 01:13:29 pmYea, I am very used to working without schematics but only on items that are worth a good sum of money, Schematics and a BOM help reduce the diagnostics time significantly increasing likelihood of repairing lower value items within a reasonable amount of time.Most right to repair laws have a fair and reasonable parts provision to prevent the $100 item $95.00 part lol. A Recent anti repair example, MFG That will be $85.00 for a $5.00 MCU but there is a $150 min order LOL! Can I get the firmware I can program the MCU "NO" that is Anti Repair.California Fair and reasonable is below, seems to be the Model Legislation.I spoke out against B and C requiring Manufactures to provide it at no cost maybe a reasonable charge $20 for schematics etc. But the people I spoke to knew all to well the MFG's would be charging outrageous subscriptions, or unreasonable amounts like the example above.(4) “Fair and reasonable terms” means each of the following, as applicable:(A) At costs and terms that are equivalent to the most favorable costs and terms under which the manufacturer offers the part, tool, or documentation to an authorized repair provider, accounting for any discount, rebate, convenient and timely means of delivery, means of enabling fully restored and updated functionality, rights of use, or other incentive or preference the manufacturer offers to an authorized repair provider.(B) For documentation, including any relevant updates, that the documentation is made available at no charge, except that, when the documentation is requested in physical printed form, a charge may be included for the reasonable actual costs of preparing and sending the copy.(C) For tools, that the tools are made available by the manufacturer at no charge and without imposing impediments to access or use of the tools to diagnose, maintain, or repair and enable full functionality of the product, or in a manner that impairs the efficient and cost-effective performance of any such diagnosis, maintenance, or repair, except that, when a tool is requested in physical form, a charge may be included for the reasonable, actual costs of preparing and sending the tool.(D) If a manufacturer does not use an authorized repair provider, “fair and reasonable terms” means at a price that reflects the actual cost to the manufacturer to prepare and deliver the part, tool, or documentation, exclusive of any research and development costs incurred.

author: Smoky
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 20, 2024, 04:22:36 pm
content: I have two Li-ion Dewalt impact drivers that stopped working over the past few years so I opened them up to see if there was something obvious that had broken.The entire switch/PCB assembly is potted in white epoxy material.There is no way to fix it.The replacement switch/PCB assembly costs $85 US.A new tool without the battery is $105 US.

author: KG7AMV
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 20, 2024, 04:56:42 pm
content: Quote from: Smoky on November 20, 2024, 04:22:36 pmYea, they do it to prevent repair.

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 20, 2024, 06:05:11 pm
content: Going after Hakko- it's seems like a bullshit political tactic, from a consumer cost point of view.Ain't nobody crying over their busted Hakko, which is actually quite rare due to their high quality.Go after the big fish that are gouging households instead of catering to Mr. Big Corp.Appliance manufacturers and their repair costs are terrible. We need access to the diagnostic codes.People can't afford a couple grand for a new washer or dryer or stove because Mr. Ripoff Repair Co. wants 1/3 the price of the entire machine just to look at it.That's just one example.

author: abeyer
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 20, 2024, 06:37:09 pm
content: Quote from: KG7AMV on November 20, 2024, 02:22:54 pmI'm not certain that's true... I think they have a reasonable argument that they mayhaveschematics, but if they don't do any component level repair and just replace boards, then the schematics aren't used "for purposes of effecting the services of diagnosis, maintenance, or repair."They'd clearly have to provide whatever testpoints, procedures, diagnostic criteria, etc... they use to make the decision to replace a board, but I'm not certain the way the law is written they'd be required to provide a schematic in that case, even if they had one.

author: abeyer
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 20, 2024, 06:39:13 pm
content: Quote from: floobydust on November 20, 2024, 06:05:11 pmIt could also be a legal tactic... going after a small to mid-sized company that you expect to fight you in court rather than settle, but that doesn't have a massive bankroll and army of lawyers, is a less expensive way to get precedent on the court's interpretation of the law. That can save money in the long run if you have that when you go after the big fish.

author: KG7AMV
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 20, 2024, 10:24:57 pm
content: I had many conversations with The VP Chris Stuber, they have schematics and firmware they just don't want to release them.

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 21, 2024, 02:11:06 am
content: OK I understand. Sorry I missed that it's your lab. Maybe an NDA or something would alleviate their "fears"? But whaaaa lawyers cost money whaaa excuse.I'm assuming they think you're going to steal their technology and make million $. That is the main excuse they use because they want to sell new, and not support fixing old. Just being obstinate. I see many companies adopt this stance.Then I would file complaints because I think owners have the right to repair, regardless of excuse/reason not to.Gov't, lawyers, exec's don't know what object code firmware or a schematic is, compared to a source or CAD file.There are entire buildings full of people dedicated to doing reverse-engineering in shenzhen. I forgot their hourly rate. TV showed on a particular floor they also copy famous paintings, clothes etc. The scale of it was a jaw dropper.Anything is fair game to be copied, tech stolen. Probably already has been done, if the products are of any value to that nation.

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 21, 2024, 02:33:10 am
content: Is this the level of detail they're expecting?https://dalincom.ru/datasheet/HAKKO_936_schematic.pdfI think we should turn "right to repair" into "right to reverse-engineer", which means exempting from the DMCA anything necessary.

author: AndyC_772
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 21, 2024, 07:49:55 am
content: Quote from: KG7AMV on November 20, 2024, 04:56:42 pmThey do it to prevent damage from water ingress, shock and vibration, which are part of the normal operating environment for a professional tool.I'm all in favour of stuff being repairable, but not at the expense of things being less reliable in the first place. Potting electronics in a tool like an impact wrench is just good practice, there's nothing sinister or intentionally anti-repair about it.As for the cost of replacement, yes, it's expensive compared to the price of a whole new tool - but given the relative quantities in which new tools are sold vs individual parts, it's probably not a huge mark-up when all overheads are taken into account.

author: voltsandjolts
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 21, 2024, 08:50:21 am
content: Quote from: AndyC_772 on November 21, 2024, 07:49:55 amThere is often the choice available to use a soft silicone (removable) potting compound or hard epoxy type. Yet the latter is far more common

author: 5U4GB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 21, 2024, 10:39:21 am
content: Quote from: KG7AMV on November 20, 2024, 04:56:42 pmMore likely they do it because an impact driver is a miniature jackhammer and if they didn't pot the electronics they'd last about fifteen minutes into first use.I can't believe I'm actually defending the manufacturers here but not everything they do is malicious. Looking through the Hakko PDF it looks like a standard repair manual for their techs to use, here's how to take it apart, here's how to replace the subassemblies, here's how to put it together again and test it. Full schematics for repair haven't been published for many devices since the days of valve/tube and discrete-transistor devices, once things progressed beyond that point it was just "identify the faulty module and swap it out".And for Hakko specifically, it can't be that hard to reverse-engineer the circuit given the number of fake Hakkos all over Aliexpress, it looks like half of China has the schematics already.

author: Smoky
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 21, 2024, 08:23:32 pm
content: About the Dewalt impact driver and the way that they used a hard epoxy potting material. When the driver is used, the vibration is transferred to each individual component on that PCB directly due to the hardness of the epoxy.I would think a silicone based potting material would absorb/deaden the vibration somewhat better before it reached the individual components on the board.I guess the only way to find out as to why they used epoxy is to ask them.

author: Stray Electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 21, 2024, 08:50:54 pm
content: Quote from: Smoky on November 20, 2024, 04:22:36 pmI've opened up and repaired dozens of wall warts and other devices that clearly stated "Do Not Open, No User Replaceable Parts Inside" (or word to that affect) and found that the only fault was that a standard glass fuse was blown! Normally, the wall warts aren't available from the manufacturers so that means that the entire device is intended to be discarded and replaced.There's no excuse, other than greed, for this type of BS from equipment manufacturers. Environmental issues alone should dictate that manufacturers provide at least a minimal amount of support (schematics?) andceasemisleading customers into discarding easily repairable electronics devices and filling land fills with them.

author: 5U4GB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 21, 2024, 10:14:18 pm
content: Quote from: Smoky on November 21, 2024, 08:23:32 pmI would guess because, apart from epoxy have better moisture resistance and other things that a previous poster mentioned, it's also a helluva lot cheaper than silicone potting compound.

author: aeg
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 22, 2024, 12:34:57 am
content: Quote from: Stray Electron on November 21, 2024, 08:50:54 pmThe "no user-serviceable parts inside" verbiage is a UL requirement. An internal fuse can have exposed hazardous voltages, so it is not user-serviceable. It can be replaced by a trained technician such as yourself, because you are expected to know to unplug it first; the average Joe on the street isn't.

author: KG7AMV
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 22, 2024, 01:18:32 am
content: One would believe that a soldering station manufacture would support the repair of their equipment. One of the excuses they gave was techs dont have the skill do go component level repairs hahaha cannot make this stuff up.. I will try and go thru my recordings some day and get the clip.Anyways, I am sure the law firm of Squire Patton Boggs will be making some good money off this. at at lest Hakko's attorney Dennis Oyakawa will have a good year.Hakko's Attorneyhttps://www.squirepattonboggs.com/en/professionals/o/oyakawa-denis-h

author: KG7AMV
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 25, 2024, 08:51:09 pm
content: I filed the FOIA to the AG for a copy of the letter sent to Hakko.

author: DavidAlfa
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 25, 2024, 09:06:10 pm
content: Do you realize you've posted your full name and address there?

author: KG7AMV
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 25, 2024, 11:31:12 pm
content: Quote from: DavidAlfa on November 25, 2024, 09:06:10 pmYes, and I do I dont care! My info used to be in the phone book and that hung on thousands of public pay phones also. I say we bring back the phone directory!!

author: abeyer
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2024, 07:45:04 pm
content: Not to mention it's been available by way of the FCC long before, since you have to jump through hoops to not share it if you have a ham license.

author: KG7AMV
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 28, 2024, 06:40:28 am
content: Quote from: abeyer on November 26, 2024, 07:45:04 pmI am easy to locate. and My Call is KG7AMV,

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 28, 2024, 08:19:38 am
content: Quote from: AndyC_772 on November 21, 2024, 07:49:55 amMaybe for an automotive tool. For alot of shit, please just let me be careful with it. That's just a stupid sales pitch that some crap that is never going to get wet is water proof. Military spec wankeryI feel like I am being punished because of idiots that think its cool to throw their tools and be lazySometimes I feel like there is a market for tools not meant for overworked understaffed poorly managed job sites. I feel like the features I am paying for might be worth while if I was a under paid roofer on a tight schedule that has a partner that throws tools on the roof. Meanwhile I treat it like a caliper.Maybe a brand called "not for car mechanics" NFCMAnd you end up getting rugazied crap that loses precision and quality because they have to make it for a psychotic gorilla. Like pliers. The good ones basically have a specialbearinginstead of a nuclear proof press fit forged part. But you can't throw them, and you put them back in the tool box when your done using them.To me it almost seems like paying for 'vandal proofing'. I know sometimes you need it but not everything needs to be build like a old style pay phone. If you are like responsible and professional, alot of that ends up being a waste of money. Sure it might help out an occasional accident, but I am starting to think that just replacing the occasional accident is better then paying for EVERYTHING to be KIND OF resistant to some incidental. Not to mention it might cause a problem sometimes, potting, sealing, etc... can sometimes CAUSE a problem that would never show up.And I noticed some designs that they think they found a magic bullet to quality/durability end up having some grievous stupid fault despite the fact they they spent a small fortune making all the environmental and vibration crap... its like they think there is a cook book to quality. I end up feeling scammed lol

author: KG7AMV
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2024, 05:42:37 pm
content: We had a Partial Win... In regards to Right to Repair.I am Not sure its because of the Attorney General Inquiry, The video I made attempting to back up the firmware of the FM-203 that was a success or Both!https://www.youtube.com/live/F3vQnaCocdQI sent Hakko an e-mail with my results with the in system programing id code via their online form at the Japan Headquarters site.A day later I received this E-mail Letting me Know they have uploaded the FM-203 Firmware V3.01 and they are revising their manuals.Sure Enough the Firmware was on thehttp://kb.hakkoussa.comincluding the same id code that was raveled in my video.This is a Win, But a it was a small win and only partial compliance right now, I hope the revised manuals he mentioned in the e-mail are not malicious in nature like the last oneshttps://youtu.be/NPWd-xQcGzwand include full schematics. I do not expect them to create "new manuals" they can just release schematics and firmware at min. that would be compliance. But I think them making a manual is a stall tactic or something else.I expect nothing but full compliance from these companies.I will make another video loading the firmware to my FM-203. Everyone should sign up to their Knowledge Base then send an e-mail to techsupport@hakkousa.com requesting access to service documents and firmware.