Extremely corroded TIC --> need advice  - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Flukav
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2020, 03:42:34 pm
content: Dear all,I acquired through classified an Axis Q1941 in «excellent condition» at low price. 10 days later, I received what looks like wreck, but a working wreck.Opening the unit shows extreme corrosion on both mechanical parts made of aluminium, electronics and... optics.A layer (protective) seems to peel of the 60mm germanium lens, while white spots stains the protective window.Even the aluminium casing had swollen under sever corrosion and a white dust covers almost every single part. I presume this unit was on a dock or something close to the ocean.I need your advice on how to restore this camera, which displays a clear image, obviously not much affected by the optics condition.Cheers

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2020, 04:36:05 pm
content: My first thoughts would be to send it back for a refund as that Camera could best be described as water damaged, and at worst, scrap, for parts only. The fact that it is working truly amazes meThat camera does not appear to have suffered normal minor water ingress or condensation damage. It looks more like it was submerged in sea water and plenty got inside the casing. Hence why I am amazed that it’s PCB tracks carrying power gave not dissolved away.I have worked on a lot of merchant marine equipment that has come from salvage yards. It ranges from perfectly OK , just needing a clean, through to total corroded junk. The problem with water ingress, especially salt water, is that it causes corrosion of the PCB tracks if power is applied at the time of ingress. It does not take long to do a lot of damage. PCB vias and IC legs just corrode away ! Having repaired Ex sunk HF radio gear I know that the equipment continues to suffer water ingress related issues long after it is repaired. If it is a salt water drowning, you really need to strip the boards of all components, or the IC’s at the very least, clean them thoroughly in an Ultrasonic bath and then leave the PCB in a special salts extraction solution that draws the salts out of the PCB material. Failure to remove any salts that exist in and on the PCB can lead to future corrosion related failures. That is, of course, if future reliability is a concern. If the water damage is purely rain ingress, the stripping of the PCB is not needed and just a good clean in a swept frequency ultrasonic bath containing distilled water is often enough.Any component that looks to have suffered corrosion needs to be removed, carefully cleaned, inspected, tested (where possible) and re-soldered to the PCB. Any part of the camera found to be damaged should be repaired or replaced.Now to the optics and microbolomter....... neither appreciate submersion but your lens objective is showing evidence of suchThe Lens coating is a bit of a mess to be honest. There is nothing that can be done by a hobbyist to repair that damage. You need to disassemble the optical section and inspect the elements fir damage. It is likely the other lens element(S) suffered corrosion related harm as well. The AR coating that is flaking away can flake off on the internal lens faces and get onto the microbolometer window or Interfere with the FFC flag mechanics. The Microbolometer may have suffered corrosion or staining of its window. It’s leads may also be corroded and any socket used for it needs to be carefully inspected for corrosion. Disassemble the FFC Flag assembly and its motor/solenoid and inspect for corrosion.In short, this is a very involved restoration project that far outweighs the value of the camera in a commercial world. If it was cheap and you want the enjoyment of the repair, like I often do, it is worth the effort. Do consider carefully whether you want to dive down this particular rabbit hole thoughFraser

author: Flukav
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2020, 06:39:05 pm
content: Thanks for this extended reply.To send it back, I wished, but the dealer claimed I «voided the warranty by opening the camera»: smart girl.For hobby use (ie look for wolfs in the mountain this winter), it can still be a nice item for 220€, given it has a 30fps for 388 pixels output and already a long-range lens, in poor shape though.I'll get some isopropyl alcohol tomorrow, distilled water, and a new soft toothbrush. I'm mostly scared of shorting the FPGA pins with leftover dissolved salt drying.Won't alcohol destroy electrolytic capacitors by drying their gum? On this blog some people mentioned good old WD-40 to protect corroded PCB.We have to give it, Axis make some reliable devices... too bad the only seal becomes brittle under sun exposure.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2020, 07:00:21 pm
content: I'm astonished that it works, that is some nasty corrosion on that PCB, I would not expect it to be reliable.Did you pay by credit card? If so you may be able to get a refund that way. To claim that you voided the warranty by opening it is pure BS, the damage was obviously there, how else are you supposed to see it? You should post the seller so we all know not to deal with them.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2020, 07:12:44 pm
content: The item is not in "excellent condition" - it is not as described, and they have an obligation to take it back.

author: railrun
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2020, 07:34:04 pm
content: If you are planning to clean the PCB you should watch some videos from Louis Rossmann. Before cleaning you should resolder all points.But if you had paid with paypal I would open a dispute and upload the pictures.It‘s just a question of time until it will stop to work.

author: nikitasius
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 12, 2020, 03:05:04 pm
content: Fond it today on eBay, 250€ (https://www.ebay.fr/itm/254682389709)Thanks for this thead

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 12, 2020, 03:57:41 pm
content: So the damaged camera is up for sale again !

author: nikitasius
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 12, 2020, 03:59:24 pm
content: Quote from: Fraser on August 12, 2020, 03:57:41 pmYep, cost 30€ more and the seller is in France.

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 12, 2020, 04:01:02 pm
content: No mention of the water damage.My moral compass would not allow me to sell an item with known damage without declaring itThe seller also sold a Raytheon 2000AS originally bought from Bill W so they are a forum member. Is it the original seller reselling or Flukav I wonder. I note a request for wire transfer payment. That is a huge warning sign to me as it removes Paypal protection (I wonder why that would be)Whoever it is, I know what it feels like to be disappointed by a purchase and would not inflict that on someone else. Selling this particular camera will likely lead to the buyer appearing on this forum and asking about its condition. Da Ja Vu !An eBay case will likely result for undeclared damage that was known aboutIs it really worth the hassle ?

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 12, 2020, 04:12:31 pm
content: For anyone wondering how I would choose to sell this camera.I would list it with honest pictures showing the corrosion and in the description I would be truthful about the fact that the camera has signs of water ingress but is currently still working. That way buyers will know what they are getting into and the fact that the camera is still working will mean someone may consider it still a viable purchase if they do not mind spending the time refurbishing it. It is the sort of project I would take on for fun, but not at 250 Euros ! My valuation on it would be £100Fraser

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 12, 2020, 04:33:54 pm
content: I suppose at the end of the day it is Caveat Emptor and the risks of buying on eBay. The seller can do whatever they like with regard to the listing BUT there is ever the risk of an eBay case if the buyer feels aggrieved in some way.I wonder if it will sell ?Fraser

author: nikitasius
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 12, 2020, 04:47:09 pm
content: Fraser idk, but this is disgusting to sell such stuff without mentioning the problems.Sadly there are no such option to report an article in eBay app menu.

author: nikitasius
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 12, 2020, 05:36:39 pm
content: @Fraser, could you look it pleasehttps://www.eevblog.com/forum/buysellwanted/(fs)-(eu)-axis-q-1931-30fps-384x288-thermal-ip-camera/msg2778218/#msg2778218mFloor looks the same

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 12, 2020, 05:39:36 pm
content: The “Spares or Repair” heading is likely the most appropriate for such a camera, even if stated as working in the text. That heading immediately tells the potential buyer that the unit has some “issues” that need to be considered.I do not want to knock the seller too much as I do not know their personal circumstances or the current state of the camera. He may have cleaned and restored it before placing it on eBay ? Past water ingress should still be mentioned though.Fraser

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 12, 2020, 05:40:57 pm
content: That is a sale of another model of Axis camera from last year.Fraser

author: nikitasius
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 12, 2020, 05:43:54 pm
content: Yes, from the an actual topic starter.He and "that guy from eBay" have similar floors.

author: nikitasius
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 12, 2020, 05:44:52 pm
content: And same country and handled same camera 🤔

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 12, 2020, 05:49:42 pm
content: Quote from: railrun on June 22, 2020, 07:34:04 pmFrom my experience in repair business this is doing it backwards and is counterproductive. Also if you cover corrosion with flux, especially under BGA, you will no longer be able to remove corrosion with water based cleaner unless it's water based flux remover.

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 12, 2020, 05:54:18 pm
content: Yes, I did suspect it was Flukav reselling his poorly camera to recover his costs. In my personal view he should have pursued the recovery of his money through the small claims court, if such also exists in France. There are ways to reduce this loss via reselling on eBay but I have to agree, not declaring serious known water damage is a little mean to the buyer of the unit. Hence why an eBay case might result.I do not want to create a forum member bashing thread so likely best we park this here and walk away.Fraser

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 12, 2020, 06:03:30 pm
content: Wraper,I agree. I carefully photograph all visible corrosion on a PCB but I Know that there may be more hiding from sight under IC’s etc. This is why a PCB suffering from prolonged water exposure or submersion, whilst powered, tends to be a write off in commercial terms unless the PCB is irreplaceable. Contamination of the PCB layers is also to be considered. Louis tends to deal with limited fluid contamination and I think he would likely consider serious and extensive water fluid damage beyond economic repair. He likes to get a board repaired in a relatively short period of time. I think he said 20 minutes on average, but I may be wrong. In his scenarios of very limited fluid contamination he gets away with soldering and repairing before cleaning. He removes IC’s to inspect under them and fits new parts where needed. His process works for his scenario and he does offers a warranty on his repairs.As I have said previously, repairing a seriously fluid contaminated PCB can be a challenging and time consuming process with many different stages to it. Only to be attempted by those who enjoy frustration and mental pain ...... basically masochistic tendenciesYep I do carry out such repairs, but normally as a mental challenge to be enjoyed for what it is..... a challengeI have grown to dislike memory backup cells and capacitors as no end of repairs that I have undertaken involved leaking electrolyte that makes a real mess of PCB’s and their tracks. That darned electrolyte not only causes corrosion but seems to get into the PCB material in some cases. Not greatFraser

author: nikitasius
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 12, 2020, 08:15:13 pm
content: Quote from: Fraser on August 12, 2020, 05:54:18 pmBut eBay's annonce must be changed.How did i fond this thread? Well, i googled datasheet, seen that 60mm too narrow for me. But some friends told that i can add mecanic scanning to make wide and detailed images.I said "ok" and googled "eevblog q1941" to read if someone already used it.I was in 1 step to buy it.So, honestly, we can't close it as is. Annonce must be changed to avoid other folks (like me) to be scammed with this turd sandwich. Regarding frontal lense dirt "fingerprint" it's exactly the same bolometer. So, there are some nice photos what must be added on eBay.

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 12, 2020, 08:29:12 pm
content: You clearly feel strongly about this where as I do not. Why not contact the seller by eBay messenger or via this forums message service and make your feelings clear ? There is little point in adding criticism to this thread as there is enough here already.Fraser

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 12, 2020, 08:51:23 pm
content: OK, I have done what probably should have been done in the first place. I have written to the seller and raised the issue of undeclared water damage. What he does next is up to him but I consider the matter closed from my perspective. If he wants to sell me the camera for £100, I will buy it as a project, but otherwise I will not be discussing the camera further with him.Fraser

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2020, 12:55:36 pm
content: To complete this discussion on the resale of the water damaged camera... the seller has carried out repairs and restoration work on the unit and put it on soak test for 10 days to test its short term reliability.The seller is not a scammer, just someone who wants to sell an asset they no longer require and has put the work in to repair/refurbish it before doing so. If he wants to say more about the matter I will leave that to him.Fraser