public broadcasting cuts? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / rf-microwave

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2025, 08:40:43 am
content: In the USA there is alot of chit and some chat about getting media services that are related to radio channels, sats and broadcast tv.https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2025/07/senate-votes-to-kill-entire-public-broadcasting-budget-in-blow-to-npr-and-pbs/?utm_brand=arstechnica&utm_social-type=ownedI wonder if HAM clubs in the future will be having events to act as some weather service. And if it could lead to a rise in lower frequency news sources, I.e. HF and under, since you can hit a large audience from a single location that might be cheaper to run then distributing stations everywhere for FM.Will people go back to listening to the news on HF and lower when the local stations that are bearable to listen to disappear?A interesting fact is that maybe 10% of people in the USA do not have home internet. So they are already really behind on being able to get mostly useless news. But if you take away the radio they are getting thrown into like pre 1920 inform-ability. Of course the problem is with low frequencies you get a central control authority unless its like very democratically managed which will likely push a 'low bandwidth' 'party line' efficiently.

author: radiolistener
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2025, 01:23:47 pm
content: Historically, when powerful AM and especially LW/MW/SW broadcast stations are dismantled, it's a signal that centralized control over information is tightening. Shortwave, in particular, offers something rare: the ability for independent or foreign voices to reach vast populations without relying on local infrastructure or permissions.When national broadcasters shut down these long-range services, populations become isolated - dependent entirely on local, easily controlled media or the internet, which is vulnerable to censorship and outages. Removing LW/MW/SW broadcast isn't just about "cost-cutting", it's a strategic move to limit external information sources.In the long term, this isolates communities, making them easier to manipulate. Historically, this precedes civil rights erosion, economic exploitation and much worse things.HF-based grassroots networks (like HAM emergency nets) could help, but they're narrow-bandwidth and limited in reach compared to high-power broadcast transmitters. Once public radio disappears and shortwave transmitters go silent, you're essentially cut off whether you realize it or not.Losing mass-scale LW/MW/SW broadcasting isn't a neutral change. It’s usually the start of something much darker.It might seem that linking the shutdown of AM broadcast stations with the rise of authoritarianism or humanitarian disasters is far-fetched. However, similar patterns have already been observed in countries where censorship, forced labor, slavery and genocide are now a reality. Perhaps it’s just coincidence, but I believe it’s not.In total, this is not just a technological shift - it’s a warning sign. When public and independent broadcast infrastructures are systematically dismantled, it often signals the beginning of deeper structural changes aimed at controlling populations. Reducing access to open, wide-area information sources like LW/MW/SW isn’t modernization, it’s the foundation for isolation, manipulation, and long-term suppression.

author: Stray Electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2025, 02:15:37 pm
content: Last paragraph first; Some very rural areas in the US don't have dial up or cable based internet access but that is a completely different subject. Do I really need to point out that neither PBS or NPR is an internet provider so shutting them down has no affect on who has internet service and who doesn't?But FWIW direct internet access directly via satellite (StarLink or Hughes Net) is available everywhere in the US including Alaska via if you're willing to pay the added costs. But as far as I'm concerned, the word "internet" doesn't belong in the conversation about NPR/PBS at all, in any regard.And AM and FM broadcast band radio is also available anywhere in the US so PBS and NPR aren't needed for that market either. Just an example, when I was stationed at Homestead AFB, south of Miami I routinely listened to an AM station, WLS, which was broadcast from Chicago. That's at least 1400 miles apart so existing AM or FM radio stations can easily reach any point in the US.I used to listen to NPR regularly for close to an hour while on my way to work and their idea on news was always politically biased and it was always national or international events and never local news, weather or traffic information. So despite what some whinny politicians claim, it's not useful for anything other than (mostly biased) political news or occasionally some international news.PBS is the same way, they don't offeranylocal news, sports or weather. They do have a one hour news program but it's actual produced by the BBC so it never has any local content and about 80% of their coverage is spent bashed Donald Trump or the Republicans.In case you haven't noticed, most of the large US "news" organizations don't report the news any more and they haven't for a very long time. They report what someone else hassaid, that way when it turns out to be a hoax, they can claim that "they" didn't start it and they only repeated what " a source" said. So Fake News has become a very real thing in the US!PBS does broadcast some very good nature shows and I will miss those. But they're about ruined those shows anyway because most of the time when they show one they also insert many long breaks for their beg-a-thones. So the result is that even though they claim that they don't have commercials, in reality they're just as bad as commercial television.Right now I'm near Orlando Florida and the last time that I had my TV scan for channels it picked up something like 68 channels that were being broadcastover the air. Those cost nothing to watch and you only need a piece of wire in the antenna connector to receive them so cost is not a factor contrary to what a lot of politicians are claiming. And I can't begin to count the number of AM and FM radio stations that are available. With the changes in the bill under consideration, this area would loseoneTV station andoneradio station. The lose of PBS and NPR is of no importance as far as I'm concerned.And I don't see PBS or NPR having any relevance to ham band radio, now or in the past or in the future.The bottom line is that there are many sources in the US that provide news besides PBS and NPR so they're not going to be missed.But FWIW I would love to see a goodhonestsurvey of how many US households spend even 10% of their entertainment time (from all sources) watching PBS or listening to NPR! My guess is that it would be a small fraction of 1%.As an interesting footnote though, in 2023 Ford stopped including AM in the radios in some of their cars and trucks and most of the other car manufacturers were also set to drop AM radios. However the US Congress stepped in and forced them continue including the AM capability in their radios (and Ford to add it back into their newer models). That was specifically done so that drivers would have access to news, whether, traffic alerts and other warnings and information. So access to information is something that the US Congress has considered, and very recently. But it appears that they didn't even consider NPR/PBS to be of any value as actual news sources.

author: Stray Electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2025, 02:43:28 pm
content: Quote from: radiolistener on July 18, 2025, 01:23:47 pmIn this particular case, I don't agree. If the government (any government) shut down an entire band or an entire type of radio or TV broadcast then you might be right. But in this case they're only talking about shutting down one radio station or one TV station (in an area) out of many. So the other stations are free to continue reporting. And furthermore, the .gov isn't actually forcing the NPR/PBS stations or networks to shut down, they're only dropping their funding. So the stations/networks can continue in operation but they will have to find another source of funding or to sharply reduce their operating costs.* I challenge anyone to find any area of the US that is ONLY served by a PBS or NPR station and nothing else.There are literally hundreds of radio and TV networks and probably tens of thousands of stations all over the world that get no government funding and they never have, and yet they continue to not only operate but to grow and expand. There is no reason that aestablishednetworks like NPR/PBS shouldn't be able to do the same."Once public radio disappears and shortwave transmitters go silent, you're essentially cut off whether you realize it or not."First, there is nothing in this bill about shortware radio or any other type of radio broadcast and second, you're forgetting about cell phones, internet, direct satellite connections.

author: radiolistener
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2025, 04:06:49 pm
content: Thank you for the clarification - it seems I initially misunderstood what NPR and PBS broadcasting represent. If I understand correctly, this is about public radio and television in the US, not about shutting down AM or shortwave broadcasts.As for AM broadcasting, its role as an independent information source should not be underestimated. In contrast, internet and cellular networks are not dependable alternatives - during crises and emergencies, they are often disrupted or disabled entirely. Local FM stations operate under strict regulations, in such situations, they typically continue routine programming, broadcast official announcements, or in some cases, stop broadcasting altogether. Internet and cellular networks, therefore, cannot be considered reliable - they are unlikely to provide meaningful access to information when it is most needed.For example, when my city was under attack, with rockets incoming and explosions all around, local FM radio provided no useful information at all. Stations either continued broadcasting generic propaganda, played continuous siren sounds, or disappeared from the air entirely. There were no updates or practical information about the actual situation.This is why the loss of independent AM radio and shortwave broadcasts can leave people effectively isolated - even if they don’t recognize it immediately. Both internet and cellular networks are vulnerable and relatively easy to regulate or restrict at the local level. Once control over communication infrastructure tightens, these channels may become unavailable or unreliable for accessing independent or critical information during emergencies.Additionally, since we frequently experienced power outages, I can also point out that both cellular networks and internet access tend to disappear as soon as the backup batteries at base stations are depleted - typically within 24 hours after the power goes out. After that, cellular service and internet access vanish completely, and even if you have a generator, you won’t be able to access news or any information about what’s actually happening.Thus, in the event of a serious emergency, you can rely on internet and cellular networks only if the authorities do not restrict access - and only during the initial hours following the onset of the crisis. After the first 24 hours, both internet and cellular services will be unavailable at all.GPS may also become unavailable due to government directives that disable or switch it to an encrypted mode inaccessible to civilian users, as well as as a result of electronic warfare measures. Therefore, relying on navigation systems in such situations may not be feasible.Moreover, the use of cellular phones may pose safety risks, as their transmission signals can potentially be exploited for targeting by missiles or drone-kamikaze attacks. Being in a crowd where many people have their cellular phones active can be particularly dangerous, as such gatherings may be mistaken for armed groups and targeted preemptively.Therefore, using passive radio receivers is safer, as they do not emit signals and are unlikely to attract attention from killer-drones or artillery strikes.

author: Stray Electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2025, 05:09:05 pm
content: Quote from: radiolistener on July 18, 2025, 04:06:49 pmCorrect. The funding bill only concerns de-funding PBS (TV) and NPR (radio) networks and has nothing to do with any other over the air communications systems or any other networks or stations. And the arguments by some politicians concerning internet access is a red herring IMO since PBS/NPR are not internet providers and never have been.I completely agree about the simplicity, reliability, value and hence the usefulness of an AM radio network. It will still be working when all of the other more complicated communications systems have long since disappeared. One of the beauties of AM radio is that even an average person can easily build receivers that don't need any power at all. I have a small inexpensive Sony ICF-P36 radio that I keep around just for emergencies. It only needs 3 AA batteries and the battery life in it is rated at 200 hours per set of batteries.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2025, 05:30:38 pm
content: In some rural areas and smaller metro areas (like in the middle of North Dakota), local broadcast stations are often not really local, being run by remote control from a network's central location.There was a case in 2002 where there was a nasty freight-train derailment (hazmat situation) in Minot, North Dakota, but the local radio stations had absolutely no one present at the station to originate a news bulletin warning of the danger. The following is excerpted from the NTSB report:"After the accident, the Minot Police Department made emergency notifications tothe public that included cable television interrupts, radio broadcasts, and outdoor warningsirens. However, many residents did not hear the emergency broadcasts because theirhomes had lost power as a result of the derailment. Additionally, residents of the houses inthe neighborhood closest to the derailment did not hear the outdoor warning sirensbecause the sirens are positioned to be heard within the city limits of Minot.The Minot Police Department attempted to contact the designated local emergencybroadcast radio and television stations. At the time of the accident, only one person wasworking at the designated local emergency broadcast radio station (KCJB-AM), and thepolice department’s calls to the station went unanswered. The designated local emergencybroadcast television station (KMOT) did not have an overnight crew at the station. Toarrange emergency broadcasts, the police department had to contact the KMOT newsdirector at his home."

author: radiolistener
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2025, 06:12:04 pm
content: In my experience, warning sirens during crises often prove largely ineffective as practical alerts. For instance, where I live, sirens have been sounding nearly continuously - up to 24 hours a day with brief pauses for several years during the conflict. These sirens are not reliably linked to actual threats, there is little correlation between siren activation and incoming bombs or missiles. Only recently has there been some alignment, with sirens sounding after explosions occur.My impression is that sirens function more as tools of psychological influence - intended to instill fear among the population, rather than as accurate signals of imminent danger. Many people who evacuate during daily shelling return exhibiting strong conditioned reactions to the sirens, often discussing them intensely and reacting immediately. Conversely, those who remain in the city tend to become desensitized, carrying on with normal activities like cooking or working while sirens sound, paying them little attention and without even attempting to assess whether the siren indicates any real threat. Similarly, even nearby explosions often fail to provoke a strong immediate response, likely due to habituation over time.Personally, I view these sirens more as an element of propaganda aimed at intimidation and social control rather than a reliable warning system. It appears that the purpose of the sirens is to instill fear and ensure unquestioning compliance among the population. Over several years of war, I have never observed sirens effectively warning of imminent danger, they simply sound continuously as background noise. Rockets, bombs, and kamikaze drones strike regardless of whether the siren is active or not. Occasionally, sirens are triggered minutes after explosions occur, but activating them at that point serves no practical purpose since the attacks have already taken place. Therefore, the sirens provide no meaningful warning or added safety.Authorities invest significant resources to increase siren volume and add voice alerts, presenting these upgrades as achievements. However, in practice, these measures prove largely ineffective, as the public has largely ceased to pay attention to them. It is particularly striking to observe people discussing, with a serious demeanor, the number of siren activations over the past month as if this reflects the actual level of danger. In reality, this metric is entirely meaningless and bears no correlation to the true threat level. For example, at the outset of the conflict,when sirens would have been most meaningful - they did not sound at all, only explosions and the whistles of incoming rockets were heard.As I know, the US conducts periodic tests of its warning system, including sirens and television alerts. It is possible that these exercises serve not only as emergency preparedness measures but also as a means of social management, rather than solely functioning as straightforward warning systems as commonly portrayed.I think that upon hearing a nuclear strike warning, many peoples immediate reaction would be to flee away from the epicenter or seek shelter. However, I think it may be more prudent to move toward the epicenter rather than away from it and don't use shelter, as this could potentially reduce the suffering before death. Many people just do not realize that after a nuclear strike, if they survive the initial blast, there will likely be no medical assistance available. Even without physical injuries or burns, they may still face several days of intense suffering before death due to radiation exposure and the collapse of critical infrastructure. Thus, even if the siren provides a reliable warning, it offers little practical value.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2025, 06:48:20 pm
content: The usual practical use of warning sirens in the US is for tornadoes (very common here) and floods.We may still call them “air-raid sirens”, as they may have been called on installation.Typically, they are sounded in concert with cell-phone alerts.They are normally tested on the first Tuesday of the month.In 1959, during higher fears of attack, the Chicago Fire Commissioner had the dim-witted idea to sound them when the White Sox won the American League pennant: they were not ignored.Modern tornado forecasting has improved greatly, and residents of tornado-prone areas generally pay attention.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2025, 06:58:28 pm
content: I have always kept an AM/FM radio available for emergencies, either my vehicle or a portable, but never needed it. My experience for the past 20 years is that AM is useless, and FM has become increasingly useless.OTA television has been good over the past 20 years for local emergencies, but how many people have an ATSC receiver? I do not.NOAA weather radio on VHF is useful, but I do not keep a receiver handy for it. I read that in the recent Texas floods, the local NOAA weather station was out of service, maybe because of lack of AC power?Internet through a cell phone and landline internet cannot be relied on for service during serious emergencies, or often even during blackouts. Starlink should be a great improvement if you can afford the extra cost, although cell phone internet is ultimately even more expensive if you actually need to use it because of traffic caps.There may be some virtue to PBS, but where is the enumerated power allowing the Federal government to fund it? NPR has been bent for decades, like mainstream news, and I used to listen for lack of anything better, but again, where is the enumerated power allowing the Federal government to fund it?They should never have been funded by the Federal government, whether authorized by the Constitution or not. Usually the Federal government implements funding for something just to control it.

author: radiolistener
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2025, 07:03:07 pm
content: We also have mobile phones emitting alerts during air raid warnings, but since these warnings are often issued randomly, without any clear link to actual danger, they tend to cause more irritation than benefit - leading many people to actively seek ways to disable such notifications. I don't like that annoying sound.Unlike sirens and cellphone warings, which often lack practical value, the sound of a real explosion nearby serves as a meaningful and reliable warning - a clear signal to immediately seek shelter, as additional strikes are likely to follow. In contrast, a distant explosion is generally perceived calmly, though with caution. If subsequent blasts occur and seem to be getting closer, it’s a clear signal to seek shelter. Otherwise, one typically continue with their routine activities. If it was a missile strike, there is typically a window of 1-2 minutes before the next impact.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2025, 07:05:59 pm
content: Again, in the US the cell-phone warnings are audible (so long as the phone is powered on) and include a text about the nature of the alarm. Fortunately, we do not suffer from aerial bombardment here, but tornados and floods are common.

author: radiolistener
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2025, 07:21:20 pm
content: Quote from: TimFox on July 18, 2025, 07:05:59 pmRecently, we also experienced a severe storm that caused significant tree damage and various other impacts, include power outage. Interestingly, however, I don't remember siren warnings were issued about this. A large tree, approximately half a meter in diameter fell right next to my window, shattering the glass and denting the roof of a nearby car. Reports on the storm’s aftermath only emerged a day later and were limited to brief mentions of the damage. Despite the considerable impact - including flooding, vehicles damaged, and windows broken by uprooted trees, the coverage remained minimal.I’ve always found it curious that homes in the US are often built from lighter materials, like wood panels, despite the frequent threat of tornadoes. I assume this is partly due to your generally warmer climate, as here it’s more common to use stone and brick - probably influenced by our much harsher winters. Would you say construction practices in your region are primarily driven by climate, or by economic factors like material costs and ease of repair after storms?

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2025, 07:38:00 pm
content: Construction practices here vary considerably from jurisdiction to jurisdiction.Since the Chicago Fire of 1871, “fireproof” construction was required, but areas that were not within the city boundaries built wooden structures to reduce costs, and many of those remain within the current larger area.Recent changes to the building codes do allow wooden construction for single dwellings, but the code is more restrictive than elsewhere.Modern buildings have substituted concrete block for brick in many cases.One discovery from the aftermath of the Fire is that cast iron (used in early multi-story buildings) is quite inflammable, so terra-cotta coating of iron structural components was required.

author: radiolistener
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2025, 08:00:13 pm
content: I once experienced a fire alarm activation in a hotel in the US, triggered by someone forgetting to turn off a kettle. To be honest, I was quite scared - the deafening sound felt less like a warning system and more like a psychological weapon. Later, I noticed an even larger fire alarm nearby, equipped with a flashing strobe light - clearly designed for the hearing impaired, which made me even more uneasy. After hearing the standard alarm, the idea of standing next to that device when it activated wasn’t exactly appealing.

author: Stray Electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2025, 08:01:15 pm
content: Quote from: radiolistener on July 18, 2025, 07:21:20 pmGenerally speaking construction quality in Florida is SHIIT! The workman aren't knowledgeable about their trade and the construction contractors will cut every corner known to man. Costs are higher in the northern US but most of the tradesman there really know their business and things are built to last. In Florida, everything related to home design and construction or repair is based on getting it done for the least costs and making the maximum profit and nothing else matters. And the average home buyer in Florida also seem to be the dumbest of the dumb and they look for the prettiest or the fanciest house available at the lowest price and they don't take any consideration of the quality of the material or the construction or the repairability or anything else into consideration. I've lived in Florida, Georgia, Virginia, Vermont, Canada and California and a few other places but Florida absolutely takes the cake for shoddy building construction.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2025, 08:34:49 pm
content: Quote from: radiolistener on July 18, 2025, 08:00:13 pmYes: those alarms are quite loud, as they should be. It's unfortunate that there are sometimes false alarms.Besides hearing-impaired guests, there are also those listening to loud music on headphones.Joke:An academic mathematician goes to another city for a mathematics conference and checks into a fancy hotel.Unfortunately, late at night there is a fire in the hotel, and he is awakened by the alarms.He goes to the door, feels the hot doorknob, and notices smoke coming under the door.He then goes to the bathroom, finds towels and sufficient water to soak them to block the smoke under the door.Having shown that the solution exists, he goes back to bed.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2025, 08:41:25 pm
content: If you read it carefully they do say that this does effect emergency warnings. It seems that its a side job of the things that are being cut to deal with this responsibility. They also use Am/FM radio stations as a vector, and they are in the loop for those cell phone alerts that people get. In the loop with redundant hardware. However I had my cell phone stop working all together more then once during some weather / power emergencies. It usually comes back sooner, but when fiber lines get hit it could be funky.QuoteSo you have the cuts effect:1) redundant hardware and backbone for cell phone warning messages (PBS). I believe this hardware has to meet a government spec2) satcom -> AM/FM radio (override NPR radio stations to broadcast FEMA satcom on FM/AM)'For #2, the AM/FM transmitters ('last mile') might have to meet a spec too. For a private radio station I don't think you need to meet anything so long it does not violate FCC laws for interference and power. Govt funded ones might have internal standards for equipment that are not related to just the FCC mandates on radiated emissions. The quality standard is just your internal ISO (whatever the hell you want / does not kill your techs)The question would be the specifics on Public Radio Satellite System. Does it have antennas, backup batteries, and other good stuff near the transmitter? Like IDK how many nodes they have. I.e. is it 1 satcom uplink per station, per city, per county or per state?If every NPR station has its own sat antenna, that is really robust. The more nodes you have the more robust the system is. If there is only one reciever per state and its routed through the local internet, thats much weaker.And IMO the warning sirens are useless unless its something regular. All they accomplish is a prompt to.... turn the radio on or to go on your phone .https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_Radio_Satellite_SystemDoes anyone know the details of the sat uplink and individual radio transmitter? Can every station work as a island?

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2025, 09:20:14 pm
content: Quote from: TimFox on July 18, 2025, 08:34:49 pmI have seen complaints, which I agree with, that the alarms are too loud, even painfully loud. I do not bother paying attention to others when they try to communicate with me while the alarms are active; it is a waste of time to try listening to them.The strobes can be a problem also because direct view is blinding, so now I cannot hear instructions, and I am vision impaired.

author: ahbushnell
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 19, 2025, 02:50:43 am
content: I hope this doesn't turn into a political place.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 19, 2025, 11:22:06 am
content: Quote from: ahbushnell on July 19, 2025, 02:50:43 amDo you mean like PBS and even more so NPR?

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 20, 2025, 03:46:26 am
content: Quote from: Stray Electron on July 18, 2025, 02:15:37 pmThey should have used it as an opportunity to modernize the band, converting it to NBFM or some digital mode. (So that a car that didn't have AM must implement that newer mode on the same frequencies.) Same advantage of very long range, but more useful with much better resistance to interference.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 20, 2025, 06:09:21 am
content: Quote from: NiHaoMike on July 20, 2025, 03:46:26 amThat would have accelerated the decline of AM. Ignoring technical and political issues, how would Congress force existing AM stations to support the new mode, rather than discontinuing operations?

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 20, 2025, 06:44:12 am
content: there is the option I like, to force car manufacturers to learn how to build electrically quiet inverters and motors. (scientific progress and excellence instead of gutting features)I wonder if they complained because they wanted to use 'treez grade' electronic circuitsMaybe its hard to make a shield that falls apart in 3 years like the rest of the car does now, for some of those... supposed brand namesplanned obsolescence. With the amount of planned obsolescence in the industry now, I can't help but to feel little sympathy for car manufacturers complaining about things being difficult or expensive to engineer. Because the money went to figure out how to make sure it breaks right after the warranty period? It's kind of amusing when congress tells them to kick rocks at this point. Maybe one of those senators will be lucky enough to get a $15k engine swap offer from the mechanic on the barely old car before session.I wonder what the long dark list of things auto industry wants to eliminate from cars. Catalytic converters, ABS, air bags... I have a feeling that without oversight we would be driving around like fred flintstone for $40k. Come on, its just too expensive to engineer these features! god damn socialists telling us what to do!

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 20, 2025, 06:59:49 am
content: Quote from: coppercone2 on July 20, 2025, 06:44:12 amIt is difficult to get enough shielding when operating at the power levels EVs require. I suspect they already make a heroic effort which compromises size, weight, and efficiency.For instance on the mechanical side, feedthrough capacitors would be required on every DC and AC line, and I have never seen RF feedthrough capacitors that large, and if they did exist, they would be really expensive. Every bearing in the motors would require not only that, but RF slip rings.Electrically soft switching could be implemented, at the cost of efficiency, which would then require several times more power capability in the inverter, and the inverters are already power limited. That will mean increasing the surface area for cooling by many times, so now the inverter no longer fits inside the vehicle.It may be that a political decision has been made not to more strictly enforce RF emission standards because the increased costs would make them significantly less economical. Would it be worth it anyway? Increased noise levels made AM reception significantly worse before EVs.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 20, 2025, 07:12:09 am
content: Well I have a honest thought here, I doubt anything they do is heroic effort, other then managing some cost.But I would like to know if there is some theoretical problem that is unsurmountable or does the decision have to do with $5 extra on some better wires or a shield.I can see a US engineering company flipping a shit because they need to add a 2x4cm segment of bent steel some where to complete a proper shield , or perhaps flip out because they can't use plastic injection rivets some where to join some body work.... or get angry about needing a metal raceway, doing a continuity test, etcWhile not US, I love the cost innovation that happened with my filter, you need to bend it up and jam it into a hole and hope it expands correctly in there, while being upside down on the passanger seat. It made me think they are not on my side, if I need to do literal gymnastics to change a air filter every 6mo to 1 year. Not on the mechanics side either. or the sales people (they have to add this one to the "oh my god please don't mention anything that makes me think of ______" (filters) list). It literally might be a decision that only benefits the leadership. You would think that maybe it benefits the customer, and this would be the lowest cost filter available on the market in the last 10 years. But no, sadly it is not cheap either.haha, I wonder what would happen if you went to the dealership and asked them to show you how to change the filter before you sign off for a car paying in cash.

author: radiolistener
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 20, 2025, 08:35:00 pm
content: Quote from: NiHaoMike on July 20, 2025, 03:46:26 amI respectfully disagree. If you listen toDRMdigital broadcasts on shortwave, you’ll notice that audio quality is disappointing due to low sound quality despite the missing noise. In contrast, professional AM broadcast stations can deliver surprisingly high-quality audio at the receiver, sometimes exceeding quality of local FM stations (possibly due to lower nonlinear distortion, since AM don't involve non-linear properties). The only real drawback of AM is the lack of stereo. As for AM on medium wave, it remains quite valuable in cars. Personally, I enjoy listening to it when driving outside urban areas where FM fades but AM continues to provide clear, interference-free reception. It’s surprising they even considered removing AM from car radios. In fact, what’s missing in modern car receivers is shortwave AM support.Adding DRM support to car receivers would be a useful feature in itself. However, personally, I find listening to DRM broadcasts unpleasant due to their low audio quality - I often prefer switching to a high-quality AM station instead.However, if you're driving a Tesla, AM reception can indeed be problematic.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2025, 05:10:44 am
content: Quote from: radiolistener on July 20, 2025, 08:35:00 pm10kHz audio bandwidth is hardly going to be "high quality" unless it's in comparison to classic telephone audio. Not to mention a low noise floor just isn't happening in the city.Why not go SSB and either have more audio bandwidth in the same spectrum bandwidth or less spectrum bandwidth for the same audio bandwidth, while having the entire transmitted power going into useful signal?

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2025, 07:48:31 pm
content: Quote from: NiHaoMike on July 22, 2025, 05:10:44 amI think you are better off using what DRM uses, orthogonal frequency division multiplexing with QAM modulation, and the lossy compression CODECs of your choice.

author: radiolistener
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2025, 08:25:48 pm
content: Quote from: NiHaoMike on July 22, 2025, 05:10:44 amAlthough FM typically offers a little bit wider audio bandwidth (15 kHz by standard, but in practice 10-14 kHz due to filters limitations), it’s not drastically higher than 10 kHz (20 kHz AM), and the nonlinear properties of FM modulation can introduce other distortions. Many professional AM stations still provide surprisingly clear and pleasant sound, often better than local FM due to lower nonlinear distortion. Urban noise is a challenge, but outside cities AM’s long range and robustness remain valuable. So, audio quality depends on more than just bandwidth.Your perception of low AM quality is likely based on listening to longwave AM stations with about 4.5 kHz audio bandwidth (9 kHz AM), which is indeed closer to classic telephone audio bandwidth of 2.7 kHz. Regarding noise, AM modulation generally produces a much gentler noise characteristic compared to FM.Another advantage of AM compared to FM is its tolerance to overlapping signals. If two AM transmitters fall within the receiver’s passband, their signals simply mix together without introducing significant distortion - you’ll hear both simultaneously, albeit superimposed. In contrast, with FM, overlapping carriers typically cause severe distortion, making the signal unintelligible.The same applies when a carrier from interference falls within the receiver’s passband. In AM, it simply mixes with the desired signal without severely distorting it. In FM, however, such interference often leads to strong distortion, rendering the signal unintelligible.Quote from: NiHaoMike on July 22, 2025, 05:10:44 amYou are correct that SSB is a much more efficient modulation method compared to AM, both in terms of power usage and occupied bandwidth. However, SSB receivers are more complex and require very precise frequency tuning. Even slight frequency offsets cause noticeable pitch shifts in the audio, so a highly stable and accurate local oscillator is essential on the receiver side. AM does not have this issue, making it simpler and more forgiving in practical use.You can also use an SSB receiver to receive AM stations, as their transmitter frequencies are generally quite stable. This actually gives you additional flexibility, allowing you to select either the LSB or USB portion of the spectrum depending on which side experiences less interference.Additionally, you can use the AM stations carrier signal to calibrate your local oscillator frequency, since broadcast transmitters are typically regularly calibrated against precise frequency standards.Quote from: David Hess on July 22, 2025, 07:48:31 pmDRM, while effective in strong-signal conditions, becomes quite problematic at weak signal levels - precisely where SSB is typically used. Replacing SSB with DRM would be a poor choice in such scenarios. Additionally, DRM requires significantly wider bandwidth compared to SSB, and the audio quality is generally much worse due to aggressive lossy compression, especially under suboptimal reception conditions.In conditions where SSB would still provide intelligible speech, even if degraded, DRM would typically fail completely and provide no usable audio at all.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2025, 12:45:51 am
content: Quote from: radiolistener on July 22, 2025, 08:25:48 pmGiven the same channel bandwidth and power, something like I described should be able to do better than SSB if some form of progressive encoding is used. This means that under low signal-to-noise conditions, the low fidelity part of the bit-stream can still be decoded.I do not know why the DRM standard did not include this.

author: radiolistener
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2025, 01:37:50 am
content: I’ve listened to several DRM broadcast stations, and the audio quality often leaves much to be desired - artifacts like bubbling and compression-related distortions are quite noticeable. At a typical bandwidth of around 20 kHz, reliable DRM reception generally requires at least 30-40 dB SNR. In contrast, standard SSB with a 2.7 kHz bandwidth can deliver significantly clearer and more intelligible audio even at SNR levels as low as 10 dB.With the same total bandwidth, you could transmit up to seven separate SSB audio channels - each at a lower signal level and still receive all of them with better clarity than a single DRM stream occupying the entire bandwidth. Moreover, DRM would require a significantly stronger signal to achieve reliable reception, and even then, the audio is often affected by artifacts such as bubbling and compression distortionIt’s important to note that I’m comparing a 20 kHz-wide DRM signal to a single 2.7 kHz SSB channel, and even in that case, SSB delivers better audio clarity and can be received with much more weak signal conditions. If we instead compare a 20 kHz DRM signal to a full 20 kHz AM transmission, the difference becomes dramatic: the AM signal can sound remarkably clean, almost like listening directly to a computer’s audio output with HD quality, while the DRM signal resembles the muffled, artifact-ridden sound of an old telephone echoing from a metal toilet bowl.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2025, 03:58:08 am
content: Quote from: radiolistener on July 22, 2025, 08:25:48 pmNot so, when there's a conflict on aircraft radio (VHF AM), there's a loud tone as the carriers aren't exactly the same frequency. The infamous Tenerife crash was partly caused by radio conflict causing an important part of a message to be missed.QuoteEasily solved nowadays with an OCXO or better in the transmitter and a TCXO in the receiver. Could also have a small residual carrier which the receiver can use to tune its local oscillator, while still having most of the signal power used to cut through the noise.QuoteThat could well be the solution, using DSP trickery to compare the LSB and the USB and try to determine what to null out. The digital equivalent is a simple repetition code which is far from optimal in terms of effectiveness for the overhead, I wonder if there's some more trickery in analog that would be analogous to ECC in terms of being far more effective for the overhead.

author: Andy Chee
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2025, 03:53:35 am
content: Quote from: radiolistener on July 23, 2025, 01:37:50 amI'm going to be picky.Are we discussing audio quality or audio intelligibility?If it's only intelligibility you require, then yes, SSB is probably the most bandwidth efficient transmission mode.However if you want the best quality, digital modes are the way.It's like comparing apples and orangutans.For the purposes of this discussion, can we at least set some parameters? For example, urban city radio reception, not international shortwave DX? At the very least, please state the application/audience!

author: fourfathom
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2025, 05:32:50 am
content: Quote from: radiolistener on July 22, 2025, 08:25:48 pmWhat nonlinear properties are these? We're talking about traditional analog FM, correct?

author: radiolistener
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2025, 06:03:01 am
content: Quote from: fourfathom on July 25, 2025, 05:32:50 amYes, exactly. We're talking about traditional analog FM modulation which is a nonlinear transform.Unlike AM, which is linear with respect to the modulating signal, FM involves a nonlinear transformation: the instantaneous frequency of the carrier depends on the integral of the modulating signal:\$s(t) = A \cos\left(\omega_c t + k_f \int_0^t m(\tau) \, d\tau\right)\$Mathematically, this makes FM inherently nonlinear, because function \$\cos\left(\int m(t) \, dt \right)\$ is a nonlinear function of \$m(t)\$. This is fundamental characteristic of the FM modulation process itself.Simply speaking, FM modulation is inherently nonlinear because it generates new frequency components that are not present in either the carrier or the modulating signal alone. This spectral expansion is a clear indication of nonlinear behavior, since a linear system would only produce output frequencies present in the input signals or their linear combinations. Therefore, the generation of these additional frequencies directly demonstrates the fundamental nonlinearity of FM modulation.

author: radiolistener
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2025, 06:54:40 am
content: Quote from: Andy Chee on July 25, 2025, 03:53:35 amNo. SSB delivers both - better audio quality and better intelligibility than DRM at comparable SNR levels.This is because DRM is lossy compression introduces noticeable artifacts such as bubbling and warbling, which are absent in AM or SSB transmissions. Also DRM has reduced analog bandwidth. While SSB includes some background noise when signals weaken, DRM produces silence in the absence of signal, though this does not necessarily translate to better perceived audio quality. I encourage you to listen to side-by-side recordings of 10 kHz SSB and DRM under similar conditions to appreciate these differences firsthand.For clarity, I'm referring to AM or SSB signals with a 10 kHz audio bandwidth, which will sound nearly CD-quality and free of distortions. In contrast, DRM suffers from significant compression artifacts and reduced bandwidth that make it unpleasant to listen to, especially on music with complex and rapidly changing spectral content. In AM, you’ll even hear the subtle background ambiance and very weak details during pauses, something that often gets lost or mangled in DRM lossy compression.While it may be theoretically possible to achieve DRM audio quality comparable to high-fidelity AM transmission, doing so would require significantly wider bandwidths. But in practice, I have yet to encounter a DRM broadcast that meets this standard. Most DRM transmissions I've heard exhibit compressed, "tinny" audio with noticeable artifacts, often sounding as if the audio is coming from a bucket with very reduced audio bandwidth. In contrast, powerful AM shortwave stations operating with a 10 kHz audio bandwidth can sound indistinguishable from FM broadcasts, and in some cases even with better quality and surpass them in perceived clarity and presence.

author: Andy Chee
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2025, 07:05:19 am
content: You ignored my key statement, which was setting the parameters for reception conditions for comparison.As far as I’m concerned, with 20kHz bandwidth and 20dB SNR, digital wins quality no-contest.If SNR degrades, then yes, SSB or AM.

author: radiolistener
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2025, 07:30:16 am
content: Quote from: Andy Chee on July 25, 2025, 07:05:19 amNo, I didn't ignored your key statement.With the same 20 kHz RF bandwidth, DRM will perform significantly worse than AM or especially SSB in terms of audio fidelity. In SSB, a 20 kHz RF bandwidth allows you to transmit nearly full-bandwidth audio - essentially CD quality, while DRM typically operates at much narrower audio bandwidths (I haven’t measured the exact audio bandwidth, but by ear it sounds like it’s well under 6-8 kHz) and applies heavy compression. The result often sounds like a ringing bucket, with limited frequency range and noticeable artifacts.Moreover, at 20 dB SNR, I’m afraid DRM may not decode at all. That SNR might be adequate for clean SSB or even AM reception, but for DRM it’s typically below the threshold required for reliable demodulation. So ironically, it's SSB that continues to provide usable - and even high-quality audio at 20 dB SNR, whereas DRM may produce nothing.I’d simply encourage you to listen to actual shortwave broadcast stations transmitting in both DRM and wideband AM (with a 20 kHz RF bandwidth). That direct comparison will make it clear why DRM often sounds poor - hollow and artifact-laden, while a strong AM signal can deliver audio quality comparable to, and sometimes even exceeding, that of FM broadcasts. The difference becomes especially apparent with music or rich acoustic content.The secret of SSB audio quality lies in its highly efficient use of spectrum - the available bandwidth is dedicated solely to transmitting the essential components of the audio signal, with nothing wasted on redundancy or unnecessary overhead. In contrast, DRM is limited by the structure of its digital stream - it sends many redundant data and cannot fully utilize the RF bandwidth for meaningful content and requires significantly higher SNR to achieve reliable decoding.To illustrate the difference, I'll try to find RF IF recordings with a strong stations transmitting in both DRM and wideband 20 kHz AM. Unfortunately, I couldn’t locate suitable examples in my main recording archive, so I may need to wait for favorable propagation conditions to capture new ones.

author: fourfathom
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2025, 04:38:32 pm
content: Quote from: radiolistener on July 25, 2025, 06:03:01 amI still don't think this is "fundamentally nonlinear" as the demodulation will complement the modulation process. Can you put a number on the demodulated signal THD or other parameter that demonstrates this end-to-end nonlinearity? (this is an honest question.) Of course there are other implementation-related factors that can affect distortion, but I'm just interested in the fundamental FM (or PM) process.I'm not going to consider the FM spectral lines (Bessel, etc.) as distortion. Instead, they are a fundamental characteristic of FM. As we change the modulation index the spectrum changes dramatically but the recovered signal remains undistorted.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2025, 04:48:49 pm
content: When I learned about the spectrum of FM signals, the professor couldn’t answer my question about the effect of bandlimiting before detection on the recovered signal, due to removing the higher sidebands.That question is simple for AM.

author: radiolistener
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2025, 10:45:44 pm
content: You're absolutely right, unlike AM, where the effect of bandlimiting is analytically straightforward due to its linear nature, FM involves a nonlinear transformation of the modulating signal. As a result, any bandlimiting applied to an FM signal before demodulation can introduce complex, hard-to-predict distortions.This is because in FM, the information is encoded in the instantaneous frequency, and truncating the spectrum, especially higher-order sidebands, alters the waveform in a way that doesn’t correspond to a simple attenuation of the original modulation. These spectral components contribute to the shape of the phase trajectory, and their removal can lead to distortion, especially for wide-deviation or high-frequency content.So the professor hesitation was understandable - there’s no clean, closed-form answer like in AM, and the analysis requires numerical simulation or approximations like Carson’s rule and Bessel function expansion to estimate how much distortion might occur.

author: radiolistener
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2025, 11:00:15 pm
content: Quote from: fourfathom on July 25, 2025, 04:38:32 pmYes the ideal FM/PM modulation-demodulation chain can be viewed as distortion-free in theory - the demodulator effectively inverts the modulation process. However, the fundamental nonlinearity we’re referring to emerges when the modulated signal undergoes real-world impairments such as filtering, group delay variation or noise before detection.Unlike AM, FM nonlinear spectral mapping means that spectral shaping (bandlimiting, etc) or channel-induced amplitude/phase distortions don’t translate linearly into the demodulated signal. Even simple pre-detection filtering can cause phase distortion or group delay variation that impacts the instantaneous frequency, and hence introduces nonlinear distortions in the recovered message signal.In essence, while the FM system is linear in a conceptual block-diagram sense (modulator + demodulator), the signal path between modulator and demodulator is sensitive to impairments in a nonlinear fashion due to the nature of FM modulation.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2025, 11:01:52 pm
content: I understood the Bessel function expansion, and could see the sidebands falling off with frequency, but it was unclear what effect resulted from truncation. Obviously, it was not merely loss of high frequency content.

author: radiolistener
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2025, 11:07:49 pm
content: Yes, truncating the FM spectrum by filtering doesn't merely remove "high frequency content" from the original modulating signal.This truncation effectively distorts the phase trajectory of the carrier, which the demodulator interprets as distortion of the message signal. Unlike AM, where spectrum truncation corresponds to predictable loss of audio bandwidth, FM spectral shaping means that even distant sidebands contribute to the correct time-domain reconstruction. So, the resulting distortion isn't simply band-limiting - it can introduce nonlinear artifacts such as waveform deformation, harmonic distortion, or even phase-dependent errors, depending on the modulation index and filtering characteristics.

author: fourfathom
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2025, 11:20:09 pm
content: Quote from: radiolistener on July 25, 2025, 11:00:15 pmYou and I are now in agreement. Good discussion!

author: Andy Chee
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2025, 04:46:29 am
content: Quote from: radiolistener on July 25, 2025, 07:30:16 amYes you have.... again.In none of my posts did I mention DRM.I have always stated "digital". That includes DAB.Maybe you're ignoring DAB because it isn't used at shortwave frequencies? Well again, I'm talking about urban broadcasting, whilst you seem to continue to talk about international shortwave.

author: radiolistener
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2025, 05:40:17 am
content: DAB is a very inefficient transmission method because it occupies a bandwidth of 1536 kHz. Therefore, it cannot be used on shortwave, and especially not on medium or long wave, since it simply won’t fit into the broadcast bands.Within that 1536 kHz bandwidth, you could fit about 38 AM stations with 20 kHz audio bandwidth (40 kHz RF bandwidth) each, all delivering CD-quality audio.DAB can carry only 8-12 audio channels within this bandwidth, depending on bitrate and codecs used. And while DAB offers the advantage of maintaining audio reception without interruption even in the presence of strong interference such as rare impulse noise, its audio quality is generally lower than AM due to the use of lossy compression codecs.Also unlike AM, which can remain intelligible at low SNR levels, DAB requires a relatively high and stable SNR to maintain audio quality and avoid dropouts.And because DAB requires such a wide bandwidth, its use on shortwave is impossible and is therefore limited to VHF/UHF bands. In these ranges, the value of broadcasting is reduced due to limited coverage areas - typically only 10 to 30 km from the transmitter, essentially confined to urban environments. This means listeners cannot easily access news independent from local authorities, and moreover, in cities, streaming radio via the Internet is often more convenient.Based on my experience living in a city within a conflict zone, I can tell you that in the event of a serious emergency, local broadcast stations are unlikely to provide any useful information. Its complete useless.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2025, 04:46:15 pm
content: I think its because you are within the Russian 'near field' 'area of influence'.If they had the technology it would make sense to shift the continent/region of normal Europe west by about 1000 miles and make a flooded areaRussia is in the unique position of having mothballed a absurd amount of anti civilian jammer equipment in 1991. Who knows how much of the GDP they were investing into building anti low frequency communication technology for about 70 years..A normal country would never consider spending... billions of dollars on doing something akin to making radio reception in north Canada blockable, to secure their 'atom/rocketgrads' and to discourage spies from going out in the woods with a transmitter. IMO the USSR had a psycho anti-civilian-radio multi-decade long lasting megaproject with average resources comparable or even exceeding the space program.I say anti civilian because a matched military would use something like a expensive troposcatter link anyway.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2025, 08:04:09 pm
content: Quote from: radiolistener on July 26, 2025, 05:40:17 amI don’t live in a conflict zone, but in reasonable sized metropolitan areas in the US (as opposed to sparsely populated rural areas), local broadcast is useful for emergency weather. Much of the US is subject to damaging tornadoes, which cannot be predicted far in advance. The Atlantic and Gulf coasts similarly are subject to hurricanes.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2025, 09:02:00 pm
content: Quote from: TimFox on July 26, 2025, 08:04:09 pmThe US also has NOAA Weather Radio broadcasts on VHF frequencies around 162 MHz. Coverage is excellent and it also uses an emergency tone system so a weather radio can be set to only interrupt you in case of emergency.https://www.weather.gov/nwr

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2025, 09:06:27 pm
content: My wife likes to listen to radio while gardening, so I bought her (for Christmas) a cute shirt-pocket radio that includes the weather broadcast.We’ll see how that NOAA service survives the elimination of babies with bath water now in progress.

author: Analog Kid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 27, 2025, 12:19:16 am
content: Quote from: TimFox on July 26, 2025, 09:06:27 pmFromthis page, regarding the Nat'l. Weather Service:QuoteAnd yeah, this post is political, so thems as don't like it can call 1-800-SO-SUE-ME.

author: radiolistener
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 27, 2025, 12:24:31 am
content: Quote from: coppercone2 on July 26, 2025, 04:46:15 pmThat sounds like an imaginative interpretation of history, but it's quite far from how things actually were.Yes, there was radio jamming stations during the Cold War - mostly aimed at blocking foreign broadcasts like Radio Free Europe or BBC. However:- These jammers were localized at megalopolises, not nationwide;- They never consumed a meaningful share of GDP or resources - this wasn’t some mega-project on the scale of the space program;- They mostly made reception inconvenient, not impossible. Many people still listened with some effort;- All of them were decommissioned after 1990 or even earlier and had nothing to do with military-grade low-frequency communications or any so-called "psycho" programs.I lived at that time, and there was even a jamming tower in our area. Interestingly, I never actually heard any jamming on the air - most likely because I didn’t know which frequencies to listen to, and to be honest, I wasn’t particularly interested in those broadcasts at the time. It was more of a political matter than a technical one, and most people simply weren’t engaged with politics. Daily life was shaped by practical concerns - work, family, basic needs, as well as everyday leisure and entertainment, and was far removed from politics.In any case, this has little to do with the actual technical limitations of modern DAB vs AM radio broadcast.Coming back to the original point - DAB:- Requires very wide bandwidth and isn’t suitable for long-range HF transmission;- Uses lossy compression, which introduces artifacts and reduces audio quality;- Has limited range (typically 10-30 km), making it a local, infrastructure-dependent solution;- Becomes somewhat redundant in cities where internet radio is more practical.In contrast, AM (especially shortwave) allows international broadcasting over thousands of kilometers with minimal infrastructure - which makes it particularly valuable in emergencies, remote areas, or when independence from networks is important.

author: radiolistener
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 27, 2025, 01:57:59 am
content: Quote from: David Hess on July 26, 2025, 09:02:00 pmThat’s true, FM broadcast, NOAA Weather Radio and similar local services are quite useful for routine weather updates and localized emergency alerts. But their utility often stops at the edge of the storm cloud, so to speak.Since their range is limited to nearby transmitters and they're fully controlled by local authorities, they work well for centralized messaging - which is both a strength and a weakness. In times of serious crises (military conflict, large-scale disasters), the flow of information from such sources can become... selectively filtered, to put it mildly.In contrast, AM broadcasts, especially on shortwave, can travel across continents and borders. They may not always sound crystal-clear, but in an information blackout, even a faint signal from afar can provide a vital outside perspective.It’s not about which side is right - it’s about having more than one voice in the room, especially when local narratives become tightly controlled. Shortwave gives listeners a chance to step outside the echo chamber and that, in itself, can be important.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 27, 2025, 02:57:08 am
content: I can understand your skepticism about information available during wartime (I’m currently reading theIliad),but why are you doubtful about tornado warnings in North America?

author: radiolistener
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 27, 2025, 03:44:34 am
content: I’m not questioning the reliability of local weather forecasts - services like tornado warnings are of course useful.My point was more about the limitations of such systems in large-scale or politically sensitive crises. In such moments, even a faint signal from beyond the official narrative can feel like a breath of fresh air - especially now, when reality is becoming even darker and more brutal than what Orwell once imagined.Strangely enough, many still don’t seem to notice - as if the telescreen is no longer on the wall, but simply in the palm of their hand. Many still believe the storm is always somewhere else - lulled by calm voices on familiar frequencies, never noticing that the fog has already settled around them...

author: KD4PBS
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2025, 07:08:12 pm
content: Quote from: coppercone2 on July 18, 2025, 08:40:43 amWhat is "HAM" an acronym for?I'm not sure what defunding PBS has to do with people suddenly not being able to access news. I don't know anyone with average or above intelligence who actually tune in to to PBS/NPR over-the-air for their news.Even if you totally took away all publicly funded broadcast radio and TV stations from that 10%, you wouldn't even make a dent in how the vast majority of them obtain their news. The ones I do know started tuning out when public broadcasting started diverging from news and reporting to propaganda and editorializing, with the rest never looking back after the woke agenda became blatant.The non-government owned stations on the airwaves already cover the news gamut quite broadly.

author: KD4PBS
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2025, 07:19:48 pm
content: They should have used it as an opportunity to modernize the band, converting it to NBFM or some digital mode. (So that a car that didn't have AM must implement that newer mode on the same frequencies.) Same advantage of very long range, but more useful with much better resistance to interference.Why? That would be a mistake. Suddenly, millions upon millions of AM receivers would not be useful at all.The AM band just simply works. A smart person never fixes something that's not broken.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2025, 09:10:04 pm
content: not news news I mean the details I high lighted to the 'side purposes' of those services (with questions still unanswered about how those systems are set up)I thought this was interesting and relateshttps://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c77v2kx304go

author: Wallace Gasiewicz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2025, 11:11:26 pm
content: When there are weather alerts, some HAM repeaters on VHF have "Storm Nets' that enable people in the area to report any severe weather or damage. Frequently first reports of tornadoes are heard on the repeaters, local news frequently does recognize thet reports are from HAM radio operators. There are also "storm chasers" who drive around looking for tornadoes or damage. This is scary. Frequently the "Control" for the net is sitting in the local storm center, like at the airport..next to the storm radar.....along with the officials in charge of the emergency systems, So to listen in to these VHF repeaters, all you need is a VHF HAM radio. I frequently turn on my hand held radio and listen to what is on the repeater. Quite informative.The etiology of the appellation "HAM" is not settled. Amateur radio licenses start with the letters HA though,This has little to do with what is referred to as public broadcasting. which really started with Julia Child and shows like that on their TV stations. Their radio format suffered greatly when "click and clack" the tappet brothers car repair show ended. There are plenty of radio stations both FM and AM that carry emergency information these days. It is not a dedicated function of Public Broadcasting.

author: Cyclotron
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 05, 2025, 11:34:33 pm
content: Based on research and plain reading of the funding changes, there appears to be mostly a lot of FUD being put out about how people will die due to these funding changes. The IPAWS systems funding isn’t impacted per what I read. Local stations remain independent. some redundancy may be reduced. Satellite provides the nearest thing to 100% coverage. Cell systems are converging with satellite networks. First alerts are going to primarily be on phones now and more so in the future. Given the ubiquity of them and the ability to power them they likely will also remain the best method for post event alerts. Vast amounts of the population neither know anything about radio and especially HAM. It’s unlike that many under the age of 30 have ever heard an AM station.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2025, 12:29:24 am
content: https://www.edisonresearch.com/radios-roadmap-to-gen-z-listenership/not sure statistics agree. I looked up several sources

author: Cyclotron
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 06, 2025, 12:54:51 am
content: I based my statements on observations. I think they may listen to FM as background but they are not tuned in. You link conflates AM with FM. I find that curios and leads me to believe there probably isn’t a lot of actual “research”. When I land and have time I’ll look for sources.I suspect these statistics may be from companies like Nielsen (sp?). If so then they are financially motivated to produce data showing themselves as relevant in 2025. I’m open to being wrong.What I do know they pay attention to is their mobile devices. Any generally available alert system should be focused there as it hits the largest numbers possible. Poor are even given subsidized phones but not TV or Radios that I know of.

author: Stray Electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2025, 03:02:01 am
content: Quote from: Wallace Gasiewicz on August 05, 2025, 11:11:26 pmX2. It's not only not a dedicated function of Public Broadcasting, it's not afunctionof PBS at all! The PBS and NPR stations in my area NEVER broadcast weather or any emergency broadcast or any local news. The transmitters might be local but all of them are remotely controlled from major cities hundreds of miles away such as New York and Boston. I literally watch a Japanese broadcast channel on the local PBS station and I see the weather broadcast for Japan but nothing from the US except a few major cities which the Japanese sometimes show.

author: Cyclotron
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 06, 2025, 03:33:35 am
content: Quote from: coppercone2 on August 06, 2025, 12:29:24 amAll of the sources I have found so far, appear to point back to either a report by Edison Research which was funded by SirusXM radio, or Nielsen.The Edison Research report doesn't just lump AM with FM, they include SiriusXM in their report. They polled an astonishing 2000 people for the data.In this video they gush about their results with a representative from SiriusXM. Obviously if you bought the research you had a reason to do so.Edison contracted with Nielsen for their their report. That makes sense for propaganda research where you want to distribute the credibility load across multiple sources.Nielsens report is just as bad as Edison's or worse.https://www.nielsen.com/insights/2025/the-record-q4-audio-listening-trends/From this you can't tell for sure if they are only talking about "Streaming" which to me, isn't listening to radio as I would define.These reports, suspect as they are also confirm that TV, in its traditional broadcast sense isn't something younger people use. This is another reason PBS would have to substantially change to be relevant to these folks.quote author=Cyclotron link=topic=466279.msg6001873#msg6001873 date=1754436873]First alerts are going to primarily be on phones now and more so in the future. Given the ubiquity of them and the ability to power them they likely will also remain the best method for post event alerts. Vast amounts of the population neither know anything about radio and especially HAM. It’s unlike that many under the age of 30 have ever heard an AM station.I've gone down this rabbit hole. I still don't think the vast majority of the population know anything about radio and especially HAM. They may know the terms AM/FM/SiriusXM. I also continue to believe my statement about 30 and under not listening to AM radio stations.But those statements are superfluous to the the impact of funding being cut to PBS and NPR. It also doesn't change that the cell phone's ubiquity means it should be prioritized for any funding for public use as a means to distribute alerts or otherwise.

author: Cyclotron
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 06, 2025, 03:44:22 am
content: Quote from: Stray Electron on August 06, 2025, 03:02:01 amI agree. I have concluded, mostly without hard evidence, that the Fear Uncertainty and Doubt being promoted to drive public furor.It is nothing more than a red herring intended to avoid any true debate on the merits. It's a "Think of the children!?!?!?!" argument.I'd see it as fair to consider redirecting the funds to better emergency alerting systems.

author: KD4PBS
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2025, 04:32:54 pm
content: <pedantic rant> Again, "HAM" is not an acronym. Why do people insist on capitalizing it? As an almost 35 year long holder of an amateur radio operators license (ham radio operator) I've cringed at the past 10 years that it's become commonplace to see people inappropriately capitalizing all three letters in the word "ham" as opposed to the acronym "HAM". The Amiga's Hold And Modify graphics mode bears no relation to ham radio. </pedantic rant>Google does not carry the burden of warning people about natural disasters, so I'm not sure what that earthquake article is ranting on about. If you rely on your failure-prone-during-natural-disasters mobile device, or the company Google for important warnings about natural disasters, then you are not a very intelligent human being.Being a ham radio operator myself, I will write that if you are trusting your local Skywarn net during a severe weather event, that makes me laugh. At least local to me it does. Maybe elsewhere in the country, there are operators who have half a brain. Here we have local operators who literally just make stuff up during these times so they can feel important. The local Skywarn net is referred to by some in the area as the MSNBCNN of amateur radio. They go out and drive around in bad weather all so that they can turn around and preach that the public should stay home and not drive around in bad weather. It's hilarious and sad all in the same vein.AM/FM and TV works without wires, and the majority of the broadcasters have backup generators giving them the capability of disseminating important information and continue to relay government-sent Emergency Alert System alerts, as mandated by law. The EAS network will continue to function normally even if IPAWS were to crash and burn, which it likely would do when large-scale internet outages occur due to the very disasters it's aimed to warn people about. All can be received with $2 worth of parts assembled smartly inside a plastic box. I see old AM transistor radios at the flea market - sometimes on the "free" table. New receivers are available for a few dollars all day long, even at your local corner drugstore. Used ATSC tuners and televisions with them built-in can be had for $20 or less. New ones cost under $100.Ultimately, don't rely on anyone else to tell you when to run.And if every single PBS or NPR station went dark today, it would affect a total of 0% of any of this.

author: Cyclotron
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 06, 2025, 09:55:07 pm
content: Quote from: KD4PBS on August 06, 2025, 04:32:54 pmMy apologies I triggered you on my capitalization of ham. Given the lack of etymology I assumed it was an acronym.I agree that it is ultimately on each person to supply themselves the means to get information.As for resiliency of mobile networks, I think they are extremely resilient. I've lived through a couple of disasters post hurricane and mobile worked to large degree.I'm not arguing against use of ham or AM or any other choice a person makes to gather information. I use a portable radio that does all of the bands runs forever on a set of batteries.Mobile networks are modern radio marvel and with the ability to send messages through satellite networks and phone calls over those networks coming on line in wide use, it really isn't anything out there terrestrially for bi-directional communications that can compete as far as I know. Readily available hardware and charging capabilities and communications. The big plus for the general population is that everyone already has one.Now, for me to be pedantic. The "Internet" historically is a proper now and should have the first letter capitalized. But I don't care about that. I do care that people perceive or say that things that indicate some fragile nature about the Internet. It is far from fragile. It is by far the most resilient information network humans have ever built. It was designed by ARPA and DARPA as a military communications system and the protocols are designed to work around failures of its parts.Last mile service can be fragile. That depends on how you get that last mile. Fiber optics and cable high speed local last mile are the most fragile. But they don't have to be. I've designed data centers and the access to and from them and you can build systems that will dang near survive direct bombing and remain connected to the Internet at large.That brings me to some of my view on mobile devices and those networks being the best we have to offer for resilence and capabilites today. Due to them using the Internet as a means for data we can send huge amounts of data near instantly.

author: radiolistener
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2025, 10:36:15 pm
content: I just tuned in to some AM stations in the medium wave band near New York over the internet - and honestly, you guys have more broadcasters on the air than China does.I was impressed by the sheer number of strong stations - the entire band is practically saturated with them.

author: KD4PBS
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2025, 02:43:53 pm
content: Quote from: Cyclotron on August 06, 2025, 09:55:07 pmAssuming you meant, "resilience" and "capabilities", our two experiences for the mobile network diverge greatly. Living in hurricane alley, and especially comparing the internet's resilience and capabilities to that of traditional AM, FM and television, I cannot remember a time that the internet access - both mobile and landline - did not fail when a flea farted in our direction 10 miles away. However, I could still spin my radio dial and hear lots of broadcasters broadcasting important news - again, over non-government run stations. As a bonus, it costs a grand total of nothing to receive the service, and the cost of equipment to receive it is little to none. Far more people own or have ready access to a radio and/or television than your "everyone" who owns some sort of mobile device. Again, these are facts, not my opinion.And I also apologize that I triggered you on not capitalizing what in your opinion is a proper noun. Being that I have used it - both landline and over amateur radio (ampr.org) since way before it was even available to the general populace, I can assure you there's nothing much proper about the internet.Quote from: radiolistener on August 06, 2025, 10:36:15 pmAbout 35 years ago, the US had to impose new rules for AM broadcast. They were known colloquially as the NRSC rules. This mandated by law how "wide" an AM transmitter could be. This helped clean the band up quite a bunch. Before those rules, the AM band was like listening to harsh noise. Whether from poor maintenance, improper setup, or intentional and malicious interference with the competition, some stations just splattered all over the band. Night time listening was interesting to say the least. The FCC put some teeth into the NRSC recommendations and the band really started to clean up. There's still lots of AM stations in the US, but far fewer than there used to be, and it has become increasingly useless for commercial broadcasters to simply even break-even in the AM broadcasting business. The only thing that has allowed most of them to stay on the air is recent rules allowing local AM broadcasters a low power signal on the FM band to simulcast the AM programming. I guess some people just cannot tolerate the minor loss of audio quality with AM. Personally, I'd much rather listen to the lower fidelity and higher noise from an AM transmission than a harsh, overly compressed (audibly and digitally) satellite radio signal any day of the week. My built in fatigue-o-meter goes to full scale after about 3 minutes of Sirius/XM listening.Enjoy the listening, radiolistener! Personally, I think 95% of all "media" - whether radio, TV, or innnuhnets are nothing butso I'll just go read a book now

author: Njk
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2025, 03:16:37 pm
content: Quote from: David Hess on July 20, 2025, 06:59:49 amI once built an inverter for motorcycle ignition. It was of the resonant type and required a big additional inductor with gapped core. The problem was how to build an automotive-quality inductor. I only managed to do so because I was working at a factory that manufactures that stuff. I went to the winding shop and asked the girls there to give me some materials like PTFE and fiberglass tapes, etc. Then I wound the bobbins and asked the girls to put my inductor in the boiler to saturate it with all their chemicals as usual, to make it moisture-proof and reliable. They did it, I awarded them with a large box of luxury candy, so all were happy. It was a "soft switching" inverter where the power transistors are switched at the zero current moments so less heat is generated by the transistors. That allowed me to reduce the heatsink size effectively reducing the size of the whole unit. That's an old story but now it's not more difficult, to say the least, because of proliferation of the SMPS controllers of all kinds. Moreover, a big vendors like TI are offering a true soft switch solution where the control algorithm is implemented in the DSP software, the reference designs are available. Everyone can buy a stuff like that and use it. No wonder the leading welding equipment vendors in China are switching to the resonant technology. That, combined with increased operational frequency, allowed to reduce the size and weight of the welding inverters noticeably. But according to what you said, the "soft switching", by its nature, is less efficient than plain old PWM. Please elaborate.In Chicago area, the receiver in my car was always tuned to Chicago Public Radio (WBEZ), a member of the NPR network. Because it was the only talking station (not counting the religion talks). All other FM stations were transmitting basically just a music. Becomes boring very quickly. While the NPR programming was more like a full-service radio. And its non-profit status allowed to transmit far less commercials. Back at that time, it was not so overloaded with politics. Sometimes, I'm still listening to it over the internet (where else I can hear a nice ad from USB.org). I think the recent development is a human evolution in its motion. It promotes the only one skill in an individual, how to take advantage of the others. While all other skills are demoted. Back to the jungle. No wonder people become more and more stupid. Deep state means the libertarians are seeing that the money is sucked from the taxpayers by the government bureaucracy, and are angry, because that could be their money. Now the libertarians are having their revenge. But the privateer's capability of getting your money is much more advanced than that of any government. Brace-brace.According to the NZ Radio web site, they're operating a powerful HF DRM transmitter to broadcast over the Oceania region. On every island there, the signal is picked up by a special receiver (most likely KiwiSDR) and is re-transmitted by a local FM station. So the radio waves are still used for their original purpose, a long-distance communication

author: Cyclotron
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 07, 2025, 03:28:20 pm
content: Quote from: KD4PBS on August 07, 2025, 02:43:53 pmYou didn't trigger me, I said I didn't care I was just poking fun at the Ham HAM, ham stuff. I worked on ARPA Net and have had a long established carreer in building the internet. It is not fragile by any measure. your last mile access is fragile and that is different.You can assure me? Ok.Cheers

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2025, 04:12:48 pm
content: Quote from: Njk on August 07, 2025, 03:16:37 pmIn Chicago, after the taxi companies quit hiring drivers and switched to leasing cabs (licensed to the company), most of the drivers are now immigrants. More often than not, they tune their radios to WBEZ since it is the only station that carries news from other countries (as opposed to news relating to relations between the US and other countries). Unfortunately, WBEZ used to be the best local station for jazz music, but they made a conscious choice to go to talk. A lower-power college station, WDCB in a western suburb, is now the only station here with regular jazz programming, and its reception is problematic. Luckily, we still have WFMT, which is one of the best classical FM stations in the country.These are all normal FM stations. They also include "HD" (which is "hybrid digital", not "high-definition") subcarriers. It is especially annoying to listen to WDCB on HD while driving, where the signal drops out for a few meters as we drive by buildings in the city, since the audio will repeat phrases of the audio to correct dropout errors.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2025, 08:15:21 pm
content: Quote from: radiolistener on August 06, 2025, 10:36:15 pmI am in New Hampshire, so not far from New York, and I can hear 2 with my car radio.Quote from: Njk on August 07, 2025, 03:16:37 pmI mean soft switching in the sense that slew rate limits are applied to the voltage and current waveforms, to reduce harmonics.Are car inverters using resonate switching? I thought this would only apply where the load is well defined and where high circulating currents are acceptable. The designs I have seen do not look like resonate designs.