Generating a medium high voltage to stun - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / projects

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 23, 2013, 08:09:25 pm
content: So I have a problem. someone does keep messing with my car, no proof and no much to show for it, knicked a winscreen wiper, opened my fuel cap out cover door and let down a tire.I think it's time to make hanging around my car uncomfortable. I'm thinking of generating a square wave at 100 volts, connect the +output would be connected to the car's body and the - to the ground (wire to the floor from the the -).I'm thinking that the "safety" resistor that I will put in series with the output can be used to "tell" the circuit that current is being drawn and increase the voltage or duty from a minimum to a maximum so that a casual brush will not be felt but continued contact will become "uncomfortable"any useful suggestions welcome

author: Galaxyrise
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2013, 08:15:50 pm
content: Seems like you'd be better off with a camera

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2013, 08:18:18 pm
content: You can't ramp it up from "can't be felt" to uncomfortable, you need to ramp it up quickly from "wow, that's weird, what's that? *touch*" to "holy motherf-ing shit"...Even better, ramp it from "wow, that's weird" to "wow, that'sreallyweird - hey Jim, come see this", then follow the former curve thenexttime.Warning - you shouldn't actually do this. Also, you shouldn't listen to me, I'd find it much more entertaining if you ignored my warning.

author: grumpydoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2013, 08:22:30 pm
content: I'm getting a strange sense of déjà vuIt remains an interesting idea and one which would no doubt give great satisfaction if implemented.It will leave you open to an assault charge though,

author: rolycat
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2013, 08:24:09 pm
content: This sounds like an extraordinarily bad idea.It's almost certainly illegal and presents all sorts of possibilities for unintended and potentially lethal consequences.Don't do it!

author: ftransform
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2013, 08:25:16 pm
content: follow them home

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2013, 08:27:03 pm
content: You guys are too well behaved...

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 23, 2013, 08:34:07 pm
content: Quote from: ftransform on May 23, 2013, 08:25:16 pmfollow them ? they probably live a few doors down !

author: FJV
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2013, 08:35:48 pm
content: This is not a smart idea.There is no such thing as non lethal weapons. The more accurate description is less lethal weapons.They can cause a heart attack (you don't know if the person has a heart condition).Also making a homemade stungun or similar device and using it on someone without warning is very likely illegal.If you're unlucky the bastard will sue and you'll end up paying a princely sum every month, because you "handicapped" him/her and now he/she cannot work.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 23, 2013, 08:36:01 pm
content: There are plenty of non lethal high voltage devices around, hec i have a medical device capable of 70V

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 23, 2013, 08:37:52 pm
content: Quote from: FJV on May 23, 2013, 08:35:48 pmI'm guessing they are already on the dol and just want an excuse for permanent incapacity benefit

author: rolycat
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2013, 08:39:54 pm
content: Quote from: c4757p on May 23, 2013, 08:27:03 pmWell, we are British. Electrocuting chaps just isn't cricket, don't you know.

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2013, 08:47:51 pm
content: Really? We electrocute someone at the start of every baseball game for good luck!

author: rolycat
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2013, 08:49:51 pm
content: It seems that you can actually buy such a gadget in the good old US of A:http://carzapper.info/I wouldn't want to be the first person to test its safety or legality in the UK, though...

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 23, 2013, 08:50:36 pm
content: The other option is that I use a small voltage to sense touching and set off a light on my house

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2013, 08:57:17 pm
content: Quote from: rolycat on May 23, 2013, 08:49:51 pmIf itislegal here, I don't think the guy who owns that website has any idea why.QuoteIt's a crime to come on someone's property? Next time someone comes up to my front door to knock on it I'll make sure to alert the police.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 23, 2013, 09:02:53 pm
content: Quote from: c4757p on May 23, 2013, 08:57:17 pmI think having good reason to be there is one thing, being told to leave and refusing becomes trespassing and i expect leaving evidence of damage to ones property sort of disqualifies you from having permission to be there. A fine line no doubt and I'm not arguing either way.Electric fences are legal

author: pickle9000
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2013, 09:09:44 pm
content: Yup even these battery operated muscle massage things can be very painful and potentially dangerous if you don't read the manual. 5 bucks on ebay, try one on max and see what you think.http://www.ebay.ca/sch/i.html?_sacat=0&_nkw=electronic+muscle+massager&_frs=1

author: MacAttak
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 24, 2013, 01:27:20 am
content: In the USA you have the right to defend yourself and property, but there are limits. I'm betting that electric shock for brushing against a vehicle that is parked in a public area is going to be far beyond those limits, and more than likely constitutes aggravated assault in itself. That would be a serious crime (felony), not something to be trifled with. I can't imagine UK law being significantly different from that.From a legal resource entry onvigilantism:QuoteI would just use a digital camera.

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 24, 2013, 01:42:44 am
content: Quote from: Simon on May 23, 2013, 09:02:53 pmThen just buy a battery operated electric fence generator and be done with it!

author: ejeffrey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2013, 03:39:51 am
content: Aside from the legal issues with assaulting someone, the fact that you are asking here about how to design it doesn't give me a lot of confidence that you aren't going to kill someone. People who manufacture non-lethal weaponry do actual research and testing. Just take a damn picture.

author: smashedProton
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2013, 04:13:46 am
content: It might not be smart to piss off some guy when they are alone with your car. They may get a little fast and loose with their keys on your paintjob. I would suggest that you use a 70 volt discharge through the bastard to trigger a camera. That shouldn't be too difficult. It may be difficult to use in court though...

author: GeoffS
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 24, 2013, 04:25:24 am
content: Motion sensor and light/camera?

author: smashedProton
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2013, 04:35:02 am
content: Yeah, those pir modules are cheap as hell. Lets see if thwy work through glass though

author: casper.bang
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2013, 04:37:41 am
content: Quote from: Simon on May 23, 2013, 08:09:25 pmI'm a little concerned and disappointed seeing amoderatoron this forum going the vigilante electrification route, and hope you have just seen one too many Knight Rider, A-team or McGyver episodes! I would go after you or anyone else with a car that shocked me simply because I touched it!! Keep in mind, kids and/or elders are far less tolerable to electric discharges than you or I.If you aren't content with visual evidence but also want to scare off the person, go with a really loud horn or something, but dude, stay off direct contact mechanisms like electroshock!

author: nukie
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2013, 04:59:49 am
content: If I am the offender and I got shocked by your car I would return with a wooden club and act like I am an artistic panel beater. Secondly, a mild shock to an adult might be a lot more harmful to small kids. Install a camera, you will have the proof and let the police do their work.

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2013, 05:04:34 am
content: Quote from: casper.bang on May 24, 2013, 04:37:41 amQuote from: nukie on May 24, 2013, 04:59:49 amDamn, if I got shocked by someone's car I'd be chuckling about it for the rest of the day... Of course, I'd also be a shithead who steals windshield wipers, so...

author: casper.bang
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2013, 05:10:37 am
content: Quote from: c4757p on May 24, 2013, 05:04:34 amIt's called being pissed. I'd be inclined to use my rubber boot to create some dents, but that's just because I'm not really very violent.

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2013, 05:14:46 am
content: I guess I'm just a weird person! I laugh when people screw with me. I'd probably be a different sort of person if I were a thief, though

author: casper.bang
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2013, 05:33:56 am
content: Quote from: c4757p link=topic=17171.msg236641#msg236641 date=13a69372486Or you are just used to being electricuted?! That is something I can never get used to and is not likely to laugh about. If I were a thief, it might be funny. However, somehow I don't think the OP is after that reaction!

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2013, 05:41:36 am
content: I'mnotused to it, that's what makes it funny! If I were used to it I'd forget about it in a minute or two.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 24, 2013, 05:54:44 am
content: I will repeat a condition stated in my op post, the power would start as imperceptible and built up, so grazing past would not be felt. If the person is persistent then it will build up until they get the message.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2013, 07:17:23 am
content: Quote from: Simon on May 24, 2013, 05:54:44 amYeah, but when they do get the message they will attack your car with more vigor, perhaps even torching it?As others have said your best recourse is a video camera. You could put a hidden camera inside the car that starts recording if it detects motion, or that snaps one frame every second or so. Or you could perhaps arrange for a motion detector to wirelessly sound an alarm in your house. How far away is your car parked? Could it be in range of a wi-fi signal?

author: grumpydoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2013, 07:18:21 am
content: QuoteYes, I did notice that you had added this "safety" feature since the previous discussion on the matter.While it might reduce the chance of accidentally harming an innocent passer by it probably isn't going to help your cause.Assume that it works and protects your car - in that case you'll be wide open to an assault charge. All the vandal has to do is complain to the police that you've electrified the car and given him a painful shock and they will be obliged to investigate (as assault in a criminal law offence). They will easily find evidence that you did, in fact, electrify your car and you will probably wind up being charged with assault and any number of public endangerment things they can dig up.You won't be able to prove malicious intent (remember your device "worked") unless you have video evidence as well - even then it might be difficult and it will not affect whether you committed an offence.If you have the video evidence then you might not need your "stun gun" although I note with depression the number of reports around of the police not being interested in following up on private CCTV footage.If your device doesn't deter the vandal then all of the above appliesandyou still have a vandalised car.Also safety feature or not there is still the potential for harm - any uncontrolled electrical discharge through the human body of more than a few V or more than a few mA has to be considered potentially fatal. You are certainly contemplating discharges which could kill as you intend them to be painful so you could still end up shocking someone who accidentally brushed against your car.It's just a bad idea - several people have told you this in this thread and the previous one on the subject.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 24, 2013, 08:20:59 am
content: Incase no one told you camera's are pretty shitty at night unless i have more money than I can afford to spend, I have a "cheap" cctv camera that picks up nothing at night and I'd need four of those and a lot of hassle in havng them setup in a car that has just enough room for passengers. Ideally i need a camera outside the car.Yes the police are pretty useless in these cases (they are coming to see me tuesday probably armed with a box of tissues and consolation). The only other thing I can do is using the same principal but at a low voltage set off the car horn or something if contact persists for more than 10 seconds.

author: G7PSK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2013, 09:28:33 am
content: Use a camera with a very large flash gun or even better a flash bulb, You can get flash bulbs that are physically bigger than a standard filament light bulb and they go off with a loud bang as well as produce a hell of lot of light.I used to have a PT Cruiser that gave me shocks every time I got in or out of the car, was glad to get rid of it.How about a circuit to set of a thunderflash that should make them run, cant buy thunder flashes easily in the UK but go along to your local farm supplies and ask for crow scarers they are the same things but on a rope fuse to go off at about every 15 min's.

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2013, 09:30:47 am
content: Legal issues aside, how would you get a complete circuit? Someone touching the car is one point of contact, but if you want the current to flow through him (and the car is one big conductor) you'd need a return path. If it's through the ground you'd need a good connection there from the car (not the tires) and the person is most likely going to be wearing shoes so his resistance is going to be even higher - and a voltage high enough to cause noticeable effects is probably going to be lethal too.

author: bilko
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2013, 10:06:55 am
content: How about a static charge using a van de graaff generator ?

author: JVR
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2013, 10:13:48 am
content: Having done this once, dont. I almost killed myself with a home made energizer.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 24, 2013, 10:33:07 am
content: Playing games with vandals is a bad idea, unlike most animals they don't learn very easily without some gentle percussive persuasion!Just keep a written record of any damage etc; then when it happens again be ready with a digital camera with a good flash; If you get a few good pics, he'll probably never come back!

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 24, 2013, 11:45:07 am
content: Quote from: jucole on May 24, 2013, 10:33:07 amThe problem is so far there is no damage, they are just being a nuisance. the police appear to be taking it seriously but then I'm yet to speak to someone and if they are like the robot in uniform that my sister had it will be a waste of time.Problem is getting a photo is not easy if they wear hoodies or are not facing the camera when picked up. I'm thinking maybe just set of a large light in the car and possibly the horn as that way they know they are open to discovery. So far they have always acted on the more secluded side of the car.

author: TorqueRanger
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2013, 12:44:22 pm
content: Personal I would buy some high power lights with motion detectors and have them light your car up when someone even comes to close and the reasons why for me are listed below ....1- Lets say you put a stun gun setup in the door hidden with a remote in order to turn it off and on...Well the person who is messing with your car will get a shock from hell and probably will stop messing with your or just start smashing your car to hell because in the end of the day that person can't really got to the police because they would be incriminating them selves that they where trespassing and attempting to steal a car or attempted to steal ...Also how are the police going to prove that you rigged the car if done properly ???The police could careless and the police report is about as good as a wet mop in the woods because it gets report and put in a file and nothing will happen any further..2- Lets say you put a stun gun setup in the door hidden with a remote in order to turn it off and on... You could just plainly kill the person and now facing charges yourself..3- Buy a camera system and spend alot money and wind up at the end of day still have nothing

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2013, 01:15:28 pm
content: Shocking people is almost always a bad idea. It just pisses them off or attracts more attentionIf they're high on drugs or drunk they might even find it funny.Or may start telling their friends to go mess with your car (just for kicks).If you really succeeded in giving one of these guys an extremely painful shock it wouldn't surprise me if they returned an hour later with a large bat and smashed all your windows.Maybe just setup a sensor that silently lets you know when anyone is messing with it.Then you can run outside and see who it is.The best way to solve the problem depends on who exactly is doing it.- Kids- Drunk people- Angry neighbor- Random crazy person

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 24, 2013, 01:44:25 pm
content: Quote from: rolycat on May 23, 2013, 08:24:09 pmI have to agree!

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 24, 2013, 01:59:19 pm
content: Yea I'm thinking more of a racket to scare them off as they clearly like to not expose themselves as they keep going for the secluded side

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 24, 2013, 02:07:51 pm
content: Quote from: Psi on May 24, 2013, 01:15:28 pmI have to agree with that also.This solution only has downsides for you.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 24, 2013, 02:13:40 pm
content: Ultimately I'll have to move. This is a very democratic country people are allowed to have their way

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 24, 2013, 02:14:59 pm
content: Quote from: rolycat on May 23, 2013, 08:49:51 pm

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2013, 02:30:46 pm
content: Oh shut up. We're not all like that.Some of us would have a beer under there, too.

author: ddavidebor
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2013, 03:46:24 pm
content: Safety first XD

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2013, 04:10:05 pm
content: IR camera, pretty good ( we got nice video of the suspect, medium build, black curly hair, outran the dogs, no other distinguishing features) at seeing in the dark. Pretty cheap as well, I just tore one apart that had the misfortune to be not proof against a local lightning strike that took out the camera. Now have a big box of IR LEDS in 5mm and 10mm. Replacement is now well earthed by local grounding rods at both camera and house side. you get one that will be usable at 30m away in the middle of the night with no starlight, looks like near daylight but only in monochrome. Add 2 PIR lights and you get colour on the DVR attached to it, along with the other 3 channels recorded as well. Costs under 400 pounds for the whole kit including the cabling.

author: MacAttak
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 24, 2013, 10:16:41 pm
content: A sign that says "you are being filmed" and a few conspicuously placed fake cameras might be all that you need.