A broken 34470A and Keysight's terrible customer service - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: 6thimage
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2021, 06:14:09 pm
content: My 34470A (7.5 digit multimeter) died 2 weeks ago - it was happy logging away one moment, beeped and then the screen went white with some random black vertical lines on it. It now will not boot and can't make it into the bootloader - from a while back, there is a serial connector on the back of the front panel where you can normally see boot messages (from both u-boot and the multimeter's firmware), but nothing comes out of it.Whilst I'm annoyed at any piece of equipment failing (who isn't), what is by far the most irritating is Keysight's response to all of this, which I think is best summed up by their last email to me:QuoteI'm based in the UK, where there is no such thing as a business license and VAT registration is only required for turnovers greater than £85,000 - so Keysight are effectively discriminating against small businesses just in case someone wants to buy a 7.5 digit multimeter for domestic use.So whilst I'm trying to find any possible way to convince them into even considering repairing it, I thought it might be worth bringing to people's attention so anyone who's self-employed / a contractor / runs a small business knows to avoid Keysight.

author: Kean
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 23, 2021, 06:48:08 pm
content: See also this threadhttps://www.eevblog.com/forum/metrology/keysight-(lack-of)-calibration-other-services/

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2021, 07:25:43 pm
content: Wankers. Sue them.If you’re a private buyer (implied if you don’t have an account with someone) and you bought it as a retail customer you should still be protected by CRA 2015 on this.https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/reclaim/consumer-rights-refunds-exchange/Keysight do not have a leg to stand on because they don’t get to specify if its a B2C or B2B transaction unless they sold directly to a business. Resellers are bound by this too. The CRA2015 is statutory legislation they can’t revoke.Check the other thread about this. Keysight give such a shit that they didn’t even bother to reply and their usual forum rep has clammed up.I would never recommend them to anyone.Edit: actually they told you that you are a consumer so that makes them liable under CRA2015. Fucking morons.

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2021, 07:48:54 pm
content: Let's make this clear, if you are in the UK, are a self-employed professional and don't need to register for VAT (and have chosen not to) you will be left high and dry by Keysight.It's about time that someone in Keysight (That's a hint Daniel if you're watching) should get through the thick heads of the bureaucrats inside Keysight Germany that this will not fly in the UK and will at some point result in a lawsuit, sure as eggs is eggs. Better still, get to the root of it and find out why Keysight Germany have taken it into their heads to pursue this policy and get them to review it and come up with a new policy that is customer friendly, not customer hostile. As this stands, there are professional customers thatcannotprove to Keysight Germany's satisfaction that they are professional customers and not consumers.As it stands I shall be forced to recommend to anyone who doesn't have a registered company and/or is not VAT registered that they avoid Keysight products at all costs until this mess is sorted out. That's personally embarrassing as it means that I have to backpedal on around 40 years of saying "Buy HP, they'll always see you right.". It's a bloody stupid company that goes out of its way to avoid acquiring new customers, it's bloody stupid company that spends years building brand loyalty and then puts a loyal and enthusiastic customer (me) in the position that they have to start saying "Sorry, it isn't the HP we knew and loved anymore, take your money somewhere else.".I'm in a quandary myself. Sure, I've got a VAT registered limited company that would satisfy Keysight Germany's bureaucrats but I've got a lot of HP/Agilent/Keysight gear that I own personally and use with my 'hobbyist' hat on. What do I do, finagle it all through my consulting company if I need to, or just start unloading my HPAK kit and replacing it with someone else's kit so that when/if I wind the company up I've got some hope of getting support for it?Edit: If they're not careful they'll get a new nickname around here: "LockBlind" because once they've got your money locked up they'll be blind to any appeals for help.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2021, 07:53:03 pm
content: That’s one reason I only buy rancid old stuff with service manuals from HPAK territory. You’d be insane to put money into anything expensive now unless you can afford for it to drop dead the day after the warranty is up. And the cost benefit there points more favourably to the likes of Siglent and Rigol.I would evaluate whether or not you are actually a business customer or not though and kick up a stink via that route as they certainly don’t get to dictate terms to consumers.

author: Saskia
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2021, 08:02:51 pm
content: this is actually somewhat strange as I have received service from Keysight not too long ago as a private person.What good is it to participate in that keysight university stuff, maybe even win something and then not get it calibrated ?

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2021, 08:04:31 pm
content: Well clearly you can sell it on eBay and buy something else that you can get calibrated

author: Zucca
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 23, 2021, 08:11:15 pm
content: I am sure most Keysight people will be pissed like you as well.DO NOT SELL IT, I think there are still something to do at the Keysight side.I PMKeysight DanielBogdanoffI am sure he will clear the air up.I am an home hobby TEA guy as well, and KS treated me like a king in the past. You just got the wrong idiot guy on your path.

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2021, 08:15:01 pm
content: Quote from: Saskia on August 23, 2021, 08:02:51 pmThe only people I've noticed speaking up who've experienced this are British, or at least based in the UK. Odd that your experience, in Germany, is different given that we're being told that this policy is being driven by Keysight Germany.

author: Saskia
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2021, 08:27:26 pm
content: Well, Keysight did not want to sell me a Mainboard for a 2000 series scope without my returning the old one.But I can see their point in that.Apart from that I have had direct access to their engineers, and they did open tickets for me.Also their reseller, Datatec, did provide immediate service when I called them. I got my MSOX3054T through Datatec by Keysight intervention. They did not want me to buy an R&S ...

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2021, 08:48:57 pm
content: Quote from: 6thimage on August 23, 2021, 06:14:09 pmIs it still within the factory warranty?? Where did you purchase it from?

author: tv84
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2021, 08:57:36 pm
content: Quote from: Zucca on August 23, 2021, 08:11:15 pmCould be but not very likely.The email answer is too much polished to be a daydream from a wary employee. It must be something indoctrinated into them, probably with ex-EU state members...

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2021, 09:28:53 pm
content: Quote from: 6thimage on August 23, 2021, 06:14:09 pmQuit whining and register a business. Gets you a lot of perks as well like being able to shop at all kinds of stores selling to companies only.

author: TheSteve
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 23, 2021, 09:30:56 pm
content: Have you tried calling them on the phone?

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2021, 09:31:14 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on August 23, 2021, 09:28:53 pmThis is a bit wrong. The situation in the UK is:1. Business -> get fecked over for minimum warranty.2. Individual -> statutory "fit for purpose" warranty if the supplier or sellers gives a shit or not.

author: 6thimage
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2021, 09:39:27 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on August 23, 2021, 07:25:43 pmI'm hoping it doesn't come to that.Quote from: Cerebus on August 23, 2021, 07:48:54 pmI really like Keysight gear, their bench multimeters are better than any other manufacturer and their scopes are fantastic, but if this is how they treat you then I'm not going to buy anything else from Keysight. I'm in a similar position to you, it's personally owned, but I could potentially use my work's company - it just doesn't feel right and I definitely shouldn't have to.Quote from: bd139 on August 23, 2021, 07:53:03 pmI do miss old manuals with the schematics in them, they made life so much easier. I'm going to look into the consumer side of it, but I know very little about law.Quote from: Zucca on August 23, 2021, 08:11:15 pmI'm hoping I can convince them - I'm more likely to try and fix it myself rather than selling it in its current state. I'm hoping Daniel might see this, but I will PM him. I've interacted with them on many ocassions before and they've been brilliant, which makes their current stance so awful. I doubt it's just one person, I've been going back and forth with them for the last two weeks without any success.Quote from: bdunham7 on August 23, 2021, 08:48:57 pmUnfortunately not, it was purchased in 2015 (from Farnell).Quote from: nctnico on August 23, 2021, 09:28:53 pmIt's tempting to, but it seems like a lot of effort when I don't really need a registered business for anything else.Quote from: TheSteve on August 23, 2021, 09:30:56 pmThat is my plan for tomorrow - I prefer email as I have a record of everything, but it might be worth a shot.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2021, 10:03:15 pm
content: Quote from: 6thimage on August 23, 2021, 09:39:27 pmWhat would you sue them for ? If it's out of warranty, you don't have a case unless you can show a manufacturing defect that was always there.

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2021, 10:30:33 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on August 23, 2021, 09:28:53 pmSo you're volunteering to pay his registration fees, accountancy costs, and to keep on top of the annual statutory paperwork for him? No? Thought not. Easy to advocate something when you haveno idea whatsoeverwhat's involved. The overhead of having an official small company in the UK is a few thousand a year, which is precisely why so many people in the UK go down the self-employed route, where all you have to do is file a tax return, and you have to do that anyway even as an ordinary employee.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2021, 11:44:00 pm
content: Was it still under warranty?QuoteSeems like an odd statement. As I look around my home lab, I see seventeen pieces of Hewlett Packard and Agilent branded equipment. I would expect my environment is pretty light and easy compared with industrial. Now if I am a professional or not, I think that's up for grabs.I wonder why the meter died. Sounds like you had been into it at one point to sniff the bus prior to it failing. Maybe lack of proper ESD control. I figure, once I take it apart, they are off the hook.

author: 6thimage
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2021, 08:34:20 am
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on August 23, 2021, 10:03:15 pmThere's a possibility it's a manufacturing defect, but proving it would be almost impossible - I just hope I don't have to talk to a lawyer!Quote from: joeqsmith on August 23, 2021, 11:44:00 pmIt does seem odd - in my mind there I've either missed a power supply on the board (all that I've found are at the correct voltage) or it is the main processor that has failed. Yes, I had been into it many years before this happened (and I know ESD isn't always instant), but whenever I've it up I've used proper ESD techniques.

author: HighVoltage
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2021, 09:46:50 am
content: I would call Keysight Germany directly and clear this up.They are always very helpful and I would be surprised if they can not help you.Your email was probably answered by the wrong guy.We call them "Schnösel" in German and unfortunately we have too many of them in this country.But don't give up on Keysight, they are a good company!

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2021, 10:06:27 am
content: Quote from: Cerebus on August 23, 2021, 10:30:33 pmActually I do know because I have a registered company for over a quarter of a century. In the UK a Private Unlimited Company is pretty similar to what I'm operating under in the NL. Required paperwork and costs are minimal and easy to do yourself. As a one-man-band you can easely use an Excel sheet for administration; no need to make it more complex than necessary or use an external accountant.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2021, 10:55:14 am
content: I’ve been doing this for 20 years. You’re trivialising a lot of work which can be avoided.And also from a warranty perspective it excludes you from consumer legislation which is advantageous most of the time.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2021, 11:31:26 am
content: Quote from: bd139 on August 24, 2021, 10:55:14 amFor sure there is a learning curve but accountants are grossly overselling the complexity of their work when it comes to dealing with small companies which don't have employees / share holders. Administration in itself is easy if you can do basic calculus and nowadays you can find everything you need to know on internet. The only thing is that there are several administrative specific terms which sound more complicated than they actually are. Interestingly the Dutch tax forms don't even use these terms if they can be avoided.QuoteBut in turn this excludes you from dealing with companies that only sell to businesses (which is kind of the subject of this thread). I'm buying lots of stuff from companies that don't sell to consumers at all; for me having a company registration is part of being able to do business. Why would a wholesale company expose themselves to all the nitty gritties of consumer law? And it is not like new test equipment typically has a short warranty. 3 years is pretty common which is even better compared to consumer law!

author: Zucca
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 24, 2021, 12:02:51 pm
content: Quote from: 6thimage on August 23, 2021, 09:39:27 pm1000 times this! I have my spider senses telling me that this could be true and not a single dumb case.1) Money is money and a customer is a customer. What is this VAT ID bullshiiit? Did you take or not take my money in the past? Did you ask for my VAT ID?2)The glorious Ebay Keysight storewill go down like a Boeing 737 max.3) HP --> Agilent --> Keysight -(I have the next for you)-> VATIDisKeyVAT ID people are probably stressed and bored at work. Hobbyist have so much passion and can't wait to use their awesome gear again.Well done KS, all your most passionate customers are jumping off your boat. I am sure the lower KS eng. are with us. I am in the fortunate position to met some of them in the past.Awesome people.This is monumentally stupid. Somebody with a good salary, a nice tie and good smell at KS will regret this.6thimageOpen a thread on the repair section and let we help you, do not give up. Soon or later will we win this battle. It's a 34470A, it needs to be saved.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2021, 12:05:09 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on August 24, 2021, 11:31:26 amI do mine in excel too. My accountant was hopeless.As for consumer law you’re wrong. EU is 2 years. UK has basis for 6 years. I have successfully got replacement items after 5 years.Really I don’t see why manufacturers shouldn’t be subject to this from a business perspective as well. It’s not good for the future of all of us making stuff that barely crawls past the minimum warranty period the manufacturer can get away with.

author: tv84
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2021, 01:18:20 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on August 24, 2021, 12:05:09 pmStarting Jan. 1st it will be 3 years here for consumer products. Isn't that for whole EU?Quote from: Zucca on August 24, 2021, 12:02:51 pmNext KS keygen will be called "VATIDisKeyGen".

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2021, 03:24:04 pm
content: Quote from: Zucca on August 24, 2021, 12:02:51 pmMore likely this is a consequence of tighter consumer protection laws in the EU. We all voted for making Apple, Amazon, Tesla, etc to respect our consumer rights (with right to repair as well) so don't go crying when their is some unexpected failout. As Keysight's business is mainly coming from companies it is logical that they don't want to deal with consumers if that means adhering to laws that are a moving target. Keysight has good service but they provide that on their own terms.Needing a VAT ID to buy stuff from other countries is mainly due to trying to prevent criminals and terrorists to move money around.

author: Zucca
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 24, 2021, 03:37:02 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on August 24, 2021, 03:24:04 pmWell here below the KS statement:QuoteIt will be nice to know why exactly it is like this. All the rest is speculation.Regardless what is behind that, it is not good for KS AND us.

author: DaJMasta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2021, 04:02:28 pm
content: It's also incongruous with their own marketing and messaging, they are clearly trying to make products that appeal to hobbyists/enthusiasts in addition to their high performance and educational lines and are marketing them accordingly, so it's disingenuous to then turn around and tell those same people they are unwilling to provide support.There shouldn't be a means check for having to pay top dollar for their service (since it doesn't sound like the OP was sold a service and calibration plan). It's not like their repair or replacement part prices are at cost or some bargain that doesn't include profit for Keysight, and as with many others manufacturers they have plenty of custom parts that can't be purchased in other channels and they no longer publish service manuals, so there really isn't an alternative either.At best, it's acting in bad faith towards a market they are definitely trying to sell to and profit from.

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2021, 04:10:34 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on August 24, 2021, 03:24:04 pmThe problem is not that, it is Keysight deciding to use their own narrow version of "not a consumer sale" that excludes many professionals and other end users who would be quite happy to say "this isn't a consumer purchase" and would probably be adjudged by a competent court of law to be buying in a non-consumer capacity, but not so judged by Keysight's own barrack room lawyers. I have no problem with Keysight dodgingconsumerprotection law here, just with the way they are doing it.The truth is that we don't know for sure that "consumer protection law" is the issue thanks to the stunning silence on the issue except for the repeated parroting of"Keysight products are designed, manufactured, and tested for professional and industrial use. They are not designed or tested for personal, domestic, or household use. While we thank you for your interest in our products and/or services, we are unable to provide you with technical support without a VAT ID or equivalent proof of business license.".QuoteOne doesn't need a VAT ID to buy stuff from other countries. <- That, that I say boy, is afull stop.If you're going to make an argument and don't want to get laughed at, don't make one that is immediately contrary to the personal experience of the audience you're making the argument to. I would bet that over 90% of your readers here make personal purchases from countries other than their own all over the world, all the time, and have never needed to produce a VAT Id.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 24, 2021, 04:26:35 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on August 24, 2021, 03:24:04 pmThat's some nonsense. Foreign companies do not care about your VAT number because it's irrelevant for them. Unless they provide DDP delivery. Importing stuff does not require VAT number as well.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2021, 05:08:04 pm
content: Quote from: Cerebus on August 24, 2021, 04:10:34 pmTry ordering something from a Spanish company as a EU citizen. So far I needed to provide my VAT ID on all purchases from Spain. I guess the joke is on you now. But do go ahead and keep shouting from your soap box Keysight is so bad yadda yadda yaddaBig hint: you can buy Keysight gear from shops that sell to consumers and get your gear serviced through them.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 24, 2021, 05:36:18 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on August 24, 2021, 05:08:04 pmThat's not really a foreign trade, and stuff does not go through the customs. If someone from Spain wanted to buy, VAT number would be asked too.

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2021, 06:16:13 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on August 24, 2021, 05:08:04 pmDon't be ridiculous. There's no need for a citizen, buying for themselves, to provide a VAT number - for a start hardly any individualshaveone. When in a hole, stop digging.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2021, 06:42:59 pm
content: I can see where nctnico is coming from and I can tell that is my experience as well: in Brasil the consumer protection laws are tight (maybe not as tight as in EU) and most representatives and brands didn't use to sell directly to customers (I left ~15 years ago, so I don't know how it is today). Also, they did not want to deal with the hassle of warranties for a single purchase - they were after the higher $$$ amount from the private, education and public sectors. Over the years a few reps/disties opened up for the end consumer, but the burden to deal with them was left entirely on their hands.Sure, if Keysight sells direct to the end customer, they have to deal with the warranty, returns and support contracted at the time of purchase (or mandated by law). Anything after that period is fair game.They may well be soft-Brexiting the UK...

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2021, 07:26:16 pm
content: It's more complicated than that.You can buy Keysight stuff from CPC, Farnell, RS etc who all sell to private individuals and therefore are on the hook. There is no loophole for statutory law here.Keysight must remove their stock from all those supply channels entirely and deal only with business accounts directly if they want to do this.And I bet they won't do that because that's still a chunk of their customer base.So the only option here is:stop being asshats to your customers.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 24, 2021, 07:44:48 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on August 24, 2021, 07:26:16 pmI don't think that's the case. In EU (UK should be the same) seller is responsible for the warranty. If manufacturer provides warranty service, it's for convenience, not because of obligation. So CPC, Farnell, RS are on the hook, not Keysight.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2021, 07:51:20 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on August 24, 2021, 07:26:16 pmFarnell's terms of sale :QuoteBut they clearly don't enforce this, You don't even need to be registered to order.The terms are fairly well buried on the website - I'm not sure if the "I agree" bit you click at checkout references this, but either way, if it came to it in court you'd have a reasonable argument that you weren't aware of them.Rapid don't have a similar clause - they don't sell KS, but they do sell Tek

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2021, 08:12:38 pm
content: Fair point with terms being applicable to the retailer. But again I’ve bought stuff directly from keysight before without agreeing to any contractual terms as a consumer so YMMV on that.The retailer can’t arbitrarily restrict your legal rights through secondary terms. That’s somewhat frowned upon.Regarding the keysight warranty I’d be interested to see if their own manufacturer warranty is applicable to individuals or they just cut you off immediately with no service.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2021, 08:25:27 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on August 24, 2021, 08:12:38 pmThey would be in deep legal doodoo if they refused warranty service, as the warranty is part of what you are buying, not to mention the PR disaster that would ensue.

author: tv84
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2021, 09:36:24 pm
content: Quote from: Cerebus on August 24, 2021, 06:16:13 pmNot so. Here any 6-year old to enter 1st grade will have to have a citizenship card which comes with "VAT number".Regarding the business VAT, I see an opportunity here: being a middle man in providing a business VAT, for a fee, in order to register the warranty claim before KS!BTW, what has Daniel Bogdanoff been doing in this forum? ? ? I think he's a rogue element and KS hasn't found out that he helps private consumers...Maybe Daniel registers our cases internally with KS own VAT number!!!!

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2021, 09:53:54 pm
content: Can Keysight even provide a repair cost estimate? (assuming out of warranty)OP is looking at a repair bill that is probably a main board swapout (refurb) plus cal and shipping.It's a USD $3,600 piece of equipment. Other companies charge up to 50% of the cost of the instrument for the big board swap repair job, sometimes making it a dilemma to keep it or throw it out.

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2021, 09:59:55 pm
content: Quote from: tv84 on August 24, 2021, 09:36:24 pmWhat, so every six year old gets an NIF? Do they charge their parents VAT on pocket money? Or is this just conflating a general tax identification number with something specific to Value Added Tax? Anyway, Keysight would insist on an NIPC, so it's not much help here.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2021, 10:02:30 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on August 24, 2021, 07:44:48 pmYeah, that is my point. The dealer "deals" with the return alongside the customer and then goes to the manufacturer to deal with the warranty. Many years ago the law was so weak in Brasil that, in case of any defects apart from 0day, the customer had to take the product to an authorized service repair store and deal with the inconvenience (although not the cost if the product was under warranty). Returns are something of a first world thing, although the situation there improved and you can return within 72 hours.Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on August 24, 2021, 08:25:27 pmPut enough pressure and the company leaves the country. Sure, it is UK and the market is quite large (I imagine), but I have seen this happen as well and you are left with importers dealing with contraband or its soft name "grey market".

author: tv84
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2021, 10:02:52 pm
content: Quote from: Cerebus on August 24, 2021, 09:59:55 pmCorrect, it's the individual fiscal ID of each citizen which, for the fiscal authority, can be usedunfortunatelyfor a huge number of things, including the taxation of a big transfer of money between parents and children...If the citizen wants to do a freelance service he can use its "personal" fiscal ID without registering a business ID. Taken from the web: "Sole traders, freelancers, and people who run unincorporated businesses in Portugal have their income treated as personal earnings and pay Portuguese income tax rather than corporate tax."https://www.practiceportuguese.com/how-to-become-a-freelancer-in-portugal-and-issue-recibos-verdes/Quote from: floobydust on August 24, 2021, 09:53:54 pmIf they wanted, they could do anything as its their product.But, with the above policy, in the US it's probably easier for anyone to have an AK-47 repaired than a KS scope.

author: tomud
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2021, 11:17:33 pm
content: @6thimageAfter reading it, I lost my will to buy the Keysight 34465AI'm starting to wonder if I should sell the dsox3054A (I don't need such problems in the future).If what you wrote is true. I will think for a long time before I order some of their equipment for the company I work for (Today this is how they treat one client, tomorrow it may be the same for a larger company).It is abnormal what they do

author: BU508A
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2021, 08:09:06 am
content: Maybe Dave is willing to do a video about this two cases and may get some responses from Keysight?Case 1Case 2

author: Zucca
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 25, 2021, 11:58:43 am
content: #davemakeavideoand we should fire up Louis Rossman too...

author: hpw
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2021, 12:47:30 pm
content: Did checked with my KS supplier...They deal or do the support... while also asked how to enter/register my gear.Interesting would be, how they deal with the ebay selling... as discounted gear and renewal...

author: Saskia
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2021, 07:57:33 pm
content: re IDs:over here we have VAT IDs that are issued to business that either request it and ask for VAT deduction explicitely (comes with filing monthly tax returns plus additional reports to the fiscal authorities (just dealt with that, it is a major pain and no sane person wants to do this voluntarily) and your personal tax id which is issued to you once you come of age.My daughter got hers when she turned 18 if I remember correctly.No business asks for your personal tax ID over here.However I could imagine that Keysight wanted to either:eliminate tax / customs issues when dealing with Brexit and shipping repaired goods over to the UKorpunish the end user community for hacking their stuff ... as a corporate customer you would just not do this.(I have not hacked my 3054T that I got from their distributor, and those questions I had regarding this scope where answered fast and in a friendly manner).

author: bson
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 25, 2021, 09:22:59 pm
content: If it's due to UK consumer protection laws (a paid repair falling under consumer protection laws solely because the buyer can be categorized as a consumer) then expect this to become the rule across the board for all T&E, electronic components, industrial suppliers, etc. These are not consumer products and if the law has been changed so it's based on who the buyer is rather than the nature of the product and who it's marketed to, then expect industrial suppliers to decline to do business with buyers who would make it consumer sales.

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2021, 09:38:59 pm
content: The UK law has been the same in this arena since 2015, so this isn't down to UK legislation changing. Every indication is that is a reaction of Keysight Germany to some change in the law in Germany, or perhaps just bloody mindedness on the behalf of Keysight Germany. There is no way we can know which or whatbecause Keysight are being silent on the subjectexcept for parroting the same phrase over and over which is just a restatement of their policy when asked for an explanation.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2021, 09:46:49 pm
content: Suddenly I recall the lengthy discussions about why Keysight is excluding some countries from their annual test equipment give-away event

author: Hydron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2021, 09:51:41 pm
content: Does anyone know if this BS goes on with any of the other big T&M companies?Kinda glad I just bought a bench DMM from Keithley (aka Tek) instead of KS, even though I've had to get the transformer changed due to audible noise (involving the unit getting stuck in customs for a lengthy period thanks to Brexit!). The Tek people were pretty helpful when I called pre-purchase, sorted out an ex-demo unit for a local distributor to sell me when I called and *said I was a hobbyist* - shame their product range for scopes etc is laughable. Given this BS from KS, I wonder what their response would have been if I'd made the same call to their sales folk?On the service front, R&S were a bit useless when I was trying to get my scope fixed, but they weren't actively trying to stop me from getting stuff sorted (was marginally out of warranty, some non-UK-based representatives indicated it'd get fixed under warranty anyway, but the UK office ignored that even when forwarded the emails and wanted silly money for their "recommended" fixed-price service, so I just changed the $10 IC myself to be done with it rather than more effort into fighting them about it).

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2021, 09:57:45 pm
content: I've heard good things about Tek but it's more "we'll sell you a self fit board for your shitty TDS for the price of a new TBS" type outcomes.But at the same time when I looked to download firmware for my shitty TBS1052B I recently got for pocket change, I found that there was a wall which was related to not being in the US and having downloads manually approved. This was actually eventually solved with much much much irony by a well known rep from another competing T&M vendor.The irony is not lost here as on the other Keysight thread, R&S were giving better support to people on a Keysight thread than Keysight were ?!?!?!So much.Honestly from a UK perspective if I was in the business and didn't need completely specialist kit I'd probably only buy stuff from Telonic (Siglent / Rigol / Brymen etc), AIM-TTi, Peak and Picotech if I could. The risk assessment is somewhat more favourable if the investment is less painful to write off.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2021, 10:36:14 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on August 25, 2021, 09:57:45 pmLOL don't have any idea of whom you're talking about.Really this whole thread is about buyers reluctance to do their research with proper inquiries about future support with their equipment vendor.Why would we be surprised when manufacturers don't wish to deal with customers directly but instead require their authorized agents to earn their keep.Preparing for flames.............

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2021, 10:40:22 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on August 25, 2021, 09:57:45 pmCompanies are paranoid about export controls. Keysight was fined up the wazoo in recent memory because a newly acquired foreign subsidiary decided to two-step some prohibited scopes into Iran. I can see rapidly adopted blanket policies seeming silly at times. I recently was looking for part for an instrument and while I waited to see if an eBay vendor would take my offer, I found it listed on one of those NSN-we-have-your-part websites. I figured I'd check since I've had some luck sourcing some pretty hard-to-find stuff from these companies. I put in my request and got back a reply asking for my company name, company email, company website, company location,end user locationand some other stuff. Apparently this part is an ITAR priority, the Taliban just can't wait to get their hands on it.It is a back case for a 1969 Simpson 270-3 VOM. It arrived today from the eBay seller...

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2021, 10:53:53 pm
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on August 25, 2021, 10:40:22 pmWell, you know the old saying about the military always being ready to fight the previous war. In this case it looks like it's either Vietnam or Cyprus.

author: YetAnotherTechie
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2021, 01:21:23 am
content: Quote from: tautech on August 25, 2021, 10:36:14 pmI started this reply with: "I agree that the point is not clear if it's just the companies not wanting to deal with customers directly and expecting them to go to their local distributor (to me this is common)."However i have to retract that, the wording of their despisement replies is indicative of not wanting us through that channel either.Batronix recently had a warning about Keysight not wanting consumers, but they removed it because apparently other distributors were not refusing customers too.We need experience from people going through authorized representatives to get a better picture.

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2021, 03:58:02 am
content: There is no KS authorized representative on this forum, he is a volunteer helping where he can on his own.

author: Oldtestgear
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2021, 08:57:56 am
content: QuoteIf what you stated was accurate then it would be the buyers fault for purchasing from the wrong manufacturer. Sadly, in my case anyway, support was withdrawn only when I tried to buy a second periodic calibration for my 34470A. Last year it was calibrated with zero fuss or bother. The system just worked exactly as it should. I only purchased my new equipment from Keysight because of the great support I had getting an old 3458A refurbished ( new front panel etc.) & a calibration. Times change & it is unfair to blame buyers for expecting the level of support offered to others.FWIWPhil

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2021, 09:07:17 am
content: Quote from: Oldtestgear on August 26, 2021, 08:57:56 amPlease don't confuse vendor with manufacturer although it does seem there has been a substantial sideshift in the support KS directly offers to individuals yet if inquiries for any reason end up in our manufacturers inbox they are always redirected to us to deal with. Yes we have to earn our authorized distributor status to retain the privileges that accompany such.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2021, 09:27:10 am
content: Quote from: tautech on August 26, 2021, 09:07:17 amWell, it is not as if authorised distributors offer excellent service by definition. You are probably an outlier (at the positive side). My experience with authorised distributors is allover the place. From very good to extremely bad (one of your Dutch counterparts for example).

author: Oldtestgear
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2021, 11:31:00 am
content: How many test equipment distributors have the facilities to back up the products they sell? In terms of pre sales support I guess many will do a great job. When a customer needs a repair or calibration it is unlikely that any distributor will be able to offer these services for a 34470A or any similar test equipement. It has to be the manufacturer that provides this level of support. There are very few labs in the UK that can properly test a 34470A let alone repair one. Just look at the UKAS certificate for your chosen lab, most cannot offer the full range of capability with the necessary uncertainties. This is not a criticism af labs in the UK, most do a good job within their stated capabilities.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2021, 12:04:31 pm
content: Quote from: Oldtestgear on August 26, 2021, 11:31:00 amThe typical way this goes is that the equipment goes to the manufacturer or an accredited lab for calibration. The distributors just deal with the logistics part of shipping equipment back & forth (likely in larger batches towards the manufacturer / accredited lab). Ofcourse there are exceptions to this rule where a distributor has their own accredited lab.About a decade ago I asked to have my Tektronix TDS744A calibrated for a project. It turned out there was only 1 place in Europe where they could do this.

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2021, 12:23:42 pm
content: Quote from: Bud on August 26, 2021, 03:58:02 amEh? Daniel Bogdanoff is employed in a public facing rôle for Keysight Marketing and is on this forum under the handle "Keysight DanielBogdanoff". What bit of any of that makes you think he is some sort of volunteer rather than an Authorized Representative? His presence here gives every impression of being here in an outreach rôle for Keysight.People don't tend to let unauthorised volunteers give away $thousands in stock, doing that very publicly tends to result in a swift arrest for theft if you're "unauthorised".

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2021, 12:42:33 pm
content: Yeah, it does look like keysight UK is attempting to sidestep needing to comply with B2C rules by stating they only do B2B. Once a company decides to go down that route they need to enforce it with an iron fist or the whole effort is kind of useless. Whenever i've seen this before though, they only sell to entities with an account with them and you need to be a business to get an account. So if anyone can buy from Keysight UK i'm not sure they have much of a leg to stand on no matter what their T&C says.I do wonder if the OP has a monetized YouTube channel and has posted any videos that could be connected in any way to the test equipment. He can legitimately claim to be a small self employed business if he did.In any case, it wouldn't surprise me if keysight UK is operating outside of UK law in some way, but it would take someone more knowledgeable than me to figure that out.It's always a good idea to make yourself seem like a company when communicating with companies that usually talk to other companies. If you let slip that you're a hobbyist they sometime don't know how to handle your enquiry. And because it's so unusual for them they may seek guidance from their legal dept and things can go downhill fast. Especially with spare part requests. They suddenly get nervous you are going to get electrocuted and are advised by legal to stop all sales with you. Understand that once an employee in a company raises a customer safety concern in a recorded form like email/slack it becomes possible evidence that could be used later to prove company negligence if someone should be injured or die. So the legal dept will always advice the customer not to do that action and make sure the company takes no steps to support them doing it.

author: coromonadalix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2021, 02:24:26 pm
content: When ordering part you could sign a release statement of somekind ?? Ks could not be liable of any wrong doing when buying parts ?? hum this is discutable ...I had to use my company name as an hobbyist to get some KS partsThe language barrier was awful

author: Bassman59
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2021, 03:51:50 pm
content: Quote from: Cerebus on August 26, 2021, 12:23:42 pmI believe Daniel is based in the US. And my guess is that he's either unable to get straight answers out of KS UK, or he's been told that he cannot speak to this matter. Further, I suspect he's as frustrated by this as everyone posting on this thread.I have not heard of any issues like this with service for US-based customers.

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2021, 04:47:43 pm
content: Quote from: Cerebus on August 26, 2021, 12:23:42 pmBy his own account, my friend, by his own account. "This is my initiative, I am doing this in my spare time" - almost verbatim. I can envision him talking to his manager "do you mind if i do this?" , " ...Meh, whatever, if you have time for it"Will be happy to hear from Daniel otherwise.

author: Keysight DanielBogdanoff
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 26, 2021, 05:03:36 pm
content: Well this thread is a party.Yes, I am here on this forum as a mostly official Keysight rep. My day-to-day job isn't this, but it does fall into the larger role that I've built for myself. It was not a corporate "initiative" or anything like that, but it's something that I recognize as important. I've had the very unique opportunity to essentially define my day job at Keysight, and things like my presence here and the Keysight Labs YouTube channel have gotten folded into that. I have full support and can make official statements here, but also try to cut the corporate nonsense and give unofficial advice as needed.That being said.There are areas I'm not going to touch and will stick to the official statements that the powers-that-be have given me. I do this because I like my job and want to be able to keep this up. A lot of people have reached out to me through this forum and we've been able to help them out when they'd otherwise have been stuck or had a situation being handled in a way that I would consider not HPAK-level support. Those types of cases are somewhat inevitable in a business this large, and I want to help catch things that fall through the cracks. I say this not because I want to brag, but because I want to keep this thing going.other comments: I am US based but my role and scope is global, believe me when I say that...uh... I hear all sorts of things from all over the place.Regarding the Europe/VAT ID/non-business concerns, that's an area that I unfortunately can't help or circumvent/shortcut around the official channels/statements. If I could I would 100% have done it already.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2021, 05:13:07 pm
content: Quote from: Psi on August 26, 2021, 12:42:33 pmTranslate that to: telling liesThis is exactly the kind of behaviour that makes companies check whether they are actually dealing with a company so they don't get lured into contract terms they didn't agree on.

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2021, 05:21:21 pm
content: Quote from: Keysight DanielBogdanoff on August 26, 2021, 05:03:36 pmYes indeed you have helped me get a part for a scope and the part really wasn't a high-value item. Thanks!

author: 6thimage
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2021, 05:46:50 pm
content: Quote from: Keysight DanielBogdanoff on August 26, 2021, 05:03:36 pmIs there any chance you can explain the reasoning behind the change? Keysight's position isn't great, but it would be more palatable if we at least had a reason why. It would be fantastic if you could provide a list of the required criteria for classing a business, but I know this will probably be a bit of a stretch.Quote from: Keysight DanielBogdanoff on August 26, 2021, 05:03:36 pmAnd we're out of party hats! I think you have to take that as how well loved your products are and how equally frustrating it is for us at the lower end to deal with this.As a small update, I have phoned the UK contact centre and got the same response - business-to-business or nothing. I have found the part I believe I need on Keysight's websitehttps://www.keysight.com/my/partDetail/34465-66522and at least it isn't too expensive. I do wish there was an image of it though.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2021, 06:10:15 pm
content: Ok this should be escalated to CXO level at Keysight so they can direct the relevant regional policy. It’s a global brand. There is only one Keysight as far as the end users are considered.Even though I work for a UK subsidiary of my company which is similarly sized I have a direct line of reporting across concerns to our global CEO and CTO.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2021, 06:24:35 pm
content: Quote from: 6thimage on August 26, 2021, 05:46:50 pmWhat do you think about simply registering a business? I get the feeling that this thread is more about a unique situation in the UK where people running a business don't register their businesses formally and now are suddenly confronted by a different culture where having a company formally registered is the norm.

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2021, 07:27:45 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on August 26, 2021, 06:24:35 pmThe issue is it isn't "simplyregistering a business", it's not just an issue of "getting a piece of paper", running a registered company in the UK comes with significantrecurringadministrative overhead. It is both unnecessary and disproportionate for many small businesses which is precisely why there are so many sole traders in the UK. Of the 6 million private sectors businesses in the UK 3.5 million are constituted as sole traders, 414,000 are partnerships and only 2 million are operated as registered companies. Of all businesses 2.6 million are registered for VAT or PAYE. (Source: Federation of Small Businesses) That leaves something like half the actual businesses in the UK as "not businesses" by Keysight's criteria (possession of a "business licence" or VAT registration). The fact that there is not such a thing as a "business licence" in the UK indicates that this policy is being driven by someone who has no idea what they are doing, and that someone more senior is letting them set policy they evidently aren't competent to set.Incurring a significant overhead just to meet Keysight's criteria for what constitutes an "official business" when all that business' existing customers and the UK tax authorities already regard it as a business is unrealistic. Doing this to someone after you've already taken their money for the product is a step beyond that, venturing towards unethical. If Keysight expect an entire country's small businesses to fall into line to meet its expectations then it's in for a disappointment.Given the current enthusiasm of politicians for finding a reason to bash US mega-corps, it's also rather foolish to hand them an excuse to do so. Imagine the headline in a red top newspaper - "Arrogant US corporation tells UK small businesses that they aren't businesses - refuses to do business with them.". I can imagine the scene in the US press office when they get the call from Damien Day on the Daily Bastard asking for comment on the article they're about to run. "Keysight didn't immediately comment when we put these allegations to them, but we could hear the sound of their press officer choking on his breakfast in the background.". It's now only a matter of time before that, or something like it happens - and no, I haven't and I'm not about to tip someone off. However, I do know of at least one place that regularly trawls the EevBlog forum for stories, I'm sure that it's not the only one.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2021, 07:49:04 pm
content: Quote from: Cerebus on August 26, 2021, 07:27:45 pmSo all major corporations should change due to the UK having a half baked system that makes it difficult to register a small company?Assuming your statement about the administrative overhead is actually true (IOW: taking more than 1 day per year to fill in and costing more than say around 300 pounds).Maybe start hammering the UK government to have some official 'sole trader' status. I see that it is possible to apply for a company VAT ID without much hassle in the UK; that could be a good starting point.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2021, 07:56:39 pm
content: When in Rome do as Romans do.300 GBP and a whole bunch of admin which you’re downplaying on the complexity and risk front to get an account at a manufacturer so you can buy their stuff? Can piss off quite frankly. Your point makes no sense at all.

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2021, 08:09:08 pm
content: Keysight Technologies $6.6 millionsettlementAug.9,2021 for violations of Arms Export Control Act. Exporting radar testing S/W to Russia and china and Canada. The other stuff to Iran was Anite's problem.Signal Studio for Multi-Emitter Scenario Generation software (“MESG software”).Point is Keysight does need to track some sales for ITAR and sanctions? But I can't see a 34470A as a threat, so selling to non-corporate entities is not a crime.

author: YetAnotherTechie
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2021, 08:30:34 pm
content: Here, registering as "sole trader" (which might not even be accepted by KS), but technically allows for VAT collecting, comes with a minimum social security contribution of >62eur a month, since it's presumed that you make at least minimum wage from your bussiness.

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2021, 08:31:51 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on August 26, 2021, 07:49:04 pmYou seem to be insistent that the mountain comes to you. It won't. Similarly the DNA of British business and administration is not going to change because you have deemed this to be "simple" to do.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2021, 08:33:37 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on August 26, 2021, 07:49:04 pmThe problem with that is that once you are registered, you must charge VAT onallsales & services, and submit returns accounting for it. If you mostly supply to business then registering is a no-brainer as you can reclaim VAT on all purchases, but if a significant market is individuals or non-VAT registered businesses then it basically means your prices go up 20%

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2021, 08:36:50 pm
content: Quote from: floobydust on August 26, 2021, 08:09:08 pmI hadn't seen that latest case. Yikes!One thing that may muddle the issues, especially in some of the feeble-minded sorts that make some of these decisions, is the difference between sensitive technology and technology used in sensitive areas. Case in point--my Simpson 270 case that an NSN-search sort of company declined to sell to me after enquiring about end-user status and so forth. The Simpson 270 is still used today in some pretty sensitive areas--there are probably a bevy of them at Pantex (of course I have no direct knowledge of that...) and in missile silos everywhere. So if you know that fact only, but don't understand that the characteristics that make it useful in that area are completely non-sensitive in and of themselves, you may conclude that you might get in trouble if you sell Simpson 270 parts to the wrong party. And who knows--you might. These are probably the same geniuses that feel the need to wipe the calibration data from analog oscilloscopes before they leave the building.

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2021, 08:40:38 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on August 26, 2021, 08:33:37 pmAnd you can get fined for making a late VAT return or failing to make a return (even if that return would be "0"), and if you fail to make a return the VATman may make up a number and then chase you through the courts for that tax or assign it to a collections agency.

author: Saskia
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2021, 08:51:15 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on August 26, 2021, 06:24:35 pmThis is absolute bullshit and you know it. Preparing and filing these VAT thingies without a tax lawyer is risky at best, suicidal if you don't know what you are doing.Monthly filings plus a summary filing for the entire year easily amounts to at least a week's worth plus the tax lawyer charges. It also invites tax audits if your revenue is not according to the IRS expectations.How much is your work worth to you ? Do you value your work at less than 300 quid per week (to just name a number)?Do you have time for a tax audit (which will set you back at least 2 weeks ?)If so, just check the field about the VAT deduction eligibility.There is a reason that our authorities allow you to not check this if you are below 25000 € annually. They don't want to be arsed with the overhead. Neither does the small business owner.Why I can tell ?Because I just had this mishap and have to prepare all those documents. Furthermore you automatically have to pay accident insurance (at least over here), trade association memberships, etc.Result: it is such a nightmare that I will in fact close my side business (which is all set up legally, even got my employer's permission ...)Sure, I could just go ahead and file those, it's not a lot of work ...Are we living on the same planet ?

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2021, 09:08:15 pm
content: Quote from: Saskia on August 26, 2021, 08:51:15 pmGood point, I'd forgotten about mandatory insurance. In the UK there's mandatory Employer's Liability Insurance - in practice it's pretty cheap for a small business but it's another thing you can get into trouble for not having:Quote from: HSE guidanceI forgot about it because, ironically, the only reason I do business via a registered company rather than as a sole trader is that I needed Professional Liability Insurance and having a limited liability company makes this easier to get (for no apparent good reason) and my insurer bundles Employers Liability, and Public Liability Insurance with that policy.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2021, 09:11:45 pm
content: Also worth throwing IR35 in here as well. “Disguised employment”.I folded my company recently if I’m honest as I have gone permanent. Someone else can deal with all that crap.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2021, 10:27:11 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on August 26, 2021, 08:33:37 pmWell, you can also ask whether you want to run a business that stays well under the 85000 pound turnover limit forever? Maybe you can do this for a company that only provides services and still make a decent living but as soon as you need to buy goods then it is easy to hit that limit. In reality I doubt it is worthwhile to run a company fulltime that doesn't reach the annual 85000 pound turnover limit.Quote from: Saskia on August 26, 2021, 08:51:15 pmYes because all the paperwork you listed exists on this side of the pond as well. It is exactly what I have been doing for over 25 years!And you don't have to report VAT every month but every 3 months and in some occasions once per year:https://www.gov.uk/vat-annual-accounting-scheme. In Germany as well:https://www.steuertipps.de/lexikon/u/umsatzsteuer-abgabefristOver here it is pretty much the same: In the beginning I reported VAT annually and when business grew it went to quarterly.Filling in my VAT return & making the payment takes me less than an hour every 3 months. 15 minutes is more like it. The numbers come straight from my Excel sheet. Copy & paste into the website. Actually, my Excel sheet automatically calculates the VAT deduction as well (that also exists here but uses a complicated formula) but since working full time the number never got positive again. The same with the income tax, export amounts, import amounts, deductables, investments, etc. It is all nicely summarised using Excel.The tax audits I was subjected to so far took about 2 hours. Just printed the Excel sheets and got the binders with incoming and outgoing invoices handy for inspection. Passed with flying colors each time. As I wrote before: accountants and tax lawyers like to make them look invaluable for your business. That is 100% true if you have a multi-million dollar/pound/euro company but for a one-man-band doing the administration part yourself is doable. You can find everything on your government's website nowadays. Unless ofcourse you think your time is worth more than you pay to an accountant to take care of it. The caveat there is that you'll still be responsible for whatever your accountant reports so you need to know about it anyway and be able to spot errors. The key is to keep a tidy administration which in the end is also benificial for yourself. I can see exactly how much money I made (hopefully), how much I still need to receive and how much VAT I have to pay.Trade associations have ceased to exist for a while now over here (maybe a decade or so). Not all companies where required to be a member anyway (I never had to deal with trade associations for my computer & electronics related business).Accident insurance is good to have. The first thing I took care of when I started working full time to make sure I have an income when I'm not able to work. Currently it is not mandatory over here but that is about to change which is a good thing IMO.According to this page:https://www.simplybusiness.co.uk/insurance/faq/is-professional-indemnity-insurance-compulsory-by-law/Professional Liability Insurance is not mandatory by law in the UK with a few exceptions. The NL isn't much different in that respect and from what I've found it is the same in Germany. Public liability insurance is handy for when you knock over a Ming vase while having a cup of coffee. In reality engineering work is almost impossible to insure where it comes to professional liability. Forget about that. You have to take care of that in your terms & conditions (and make sure a project's paperwork is in order including highlighting areas which concern safety issues; the customer has to sign off on those).You have to be very careful to read the insurance policies offered because a lot of insurance companies like you to pay a lot for a professional liability insurance policy which covers absolutely nothing. For me the hardest part of getting the insurances in order was a plain & simple public liability insurance. The insurance I got in the end costs me around 125 euro per year or so for a coverage up to several million euro.I realise that if you just start out it is a huge wall of paperwork but if you take it one step at a time and at least use a spreadsheet it is manageable. My administration spreadsheet is really simple: 12 sheets with money coming in (columns with total received, total to be paid and VAT), 12 sheets with money going out (amount and VAT), 1 sheet with quarterly summaries and a total, one sheet with an annual summary, one sheet with the exports, sheet with imports and finally one sheet with VAT numbers of clients and HS codes for products.

author: tomud
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2021, 11:13:52 pm
content: @nctnicoBut what does it matter ? You can run a business and not be a VAT payer not only in the UK. Such a thing is often profitable when providing services for people (not for companies). So here we have discrimination against companies that are not VAT payers (I have many friends who provide RTV / GSM repair services and they settle accounts this way because it is more beneficial for them).For example, I myself have a company that is a VAT payer. I can buy equipment for my home (hobby) for the company (deducting VAT and income tax), the question is is this fair ? Therefore, so far I have bought hobby equipment privately.Well, I wonder if something happens to the oscilloscope (dsox3054A) for which I paid a lot of money , the company will tell me "fuck off" and forget about repair (I'm talking about a paid service after a guarantee) ?Something seems to be wrong here, since nobody said something like that when buying the equipment. Now at least I know to look for another multimeter, because I also wanted to buy Keysight (and it would be a big mistake).I skip the whole discussion about who buys the equipment. In fact, if I would like to, in a few days I can set up a company for the homeless person I meet;) buy equipment and sell it to whomever I want... These are the Himalayas of the absurd - it is difficult to define otherwise.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2021, 11:35:15 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on August 26, 2021, 10:27:11 pmPlenty of people run a business as a sideline to a normal job

author: KaneTW
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2021, 12:17:07 am
content: It's an absolute no brainer to VAT register if you're a sole trader, just purely from a financial perspective, unless you sell primarily to customers and the extra sales would make up for the 20% extra cost on supplies.Returns are quarterly and the only effort on my part is putting them in a folder and maybe telling my accountant what kind of expense they are. Doesn't cost more than a couple hundred a year. Or you can do it for free for some extra paperwork.

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2021, 01:12:00 am
content: Quote from: KaneTW on August 27, 2021, 12:17:07 amThe point isn't whether it is or is not a good idea for the circumstances of a particular business. It is whether an existing business should be forced to do this, incurring ongoing costs and risks, just to get service from Keysight for a Keysight product that Keysight or one of their distributors has already sold them.

author: Bassman59
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2021, 01:52:34 am
content: Quote from: floobydust on August 26, 2021, 08:09:08 pmIt doesn't matter whatweconsider to be, uh, interesting under ITAR. All that matters is what the people who decide such things decree.

author: KaneTW
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2021, 02:31:25 am
content: Quote from: Cerebus on August 27, 2021, 01:12:00 amSounds like a matter for the lawyers to figure out the specifics of. Keysight's decision sucks but I'm sure it's not unprompted.

author: tv84
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2021, 07:35:48 am
content: Let me organize a couple of ideas here:1 - Keysight has all the power to make such a decision, regarding it doesn't go against any law. (Although I think this may put many KS resellers in danger of legal procedures, at least in the EU...)2 - It's not a Keysight Germany decision. A decision of this type must have the approval at the highest level in Keysight. (If it doesn't then someone's head will be cut off.)3 - Resellers could serve as intermediate servicing points and all would be good but most don't want to go that route or, at least, the customer won't want the hassles and to pay the extra of having a middle man.4 - The VAT BS matter, because of creating a business for this, reminds me that occasion when we want to see a specific football game and subscribe to a premium TV channel. 6 months later we are still paying the subscription...In this case:- "Honey, what are all these taxes and expenses with this company Calib_Me that we have been getting these last 6 years?" Husband answers: - "Oh darling, it's something I created to have my DMM calibrated back then..."5 - Daniel is a great guyand, as many in many companies, goes the extra mile in providing official and personal support to any problem he sees he can do some difference, always defending his mother company. His message is a responsible message, well written and (IMHO) the only one he could write in such conditions. The "sense in the air" is that he isn't too comfortable (replace with agreeable if you prefer) with this decision. But it's truly beyond his powers. Don't take it hard on him, go through the official channels.6 - Regarding what people can do: those that can/want to go the legal way in some specific cases, are entitled and encouraged to.To the rest I say this: we all have our powers also.Privately, be it our hobby or own business, we can choose to not buy KS as long there are other brands that can do the job. Secondly,and the most important since it's the one that surely calls KS attention, in our circles or influence or on our procurement/advisory positions inside each big company many of us work, we can advocate in not choosing KS because of the type of assurances this company provides to minor guys (one day, any one of us can be in the lower side of the scale).All the KS people that should be squeezed against the wall, are the account managers, sales directors and CSOs that come to our doors trying to push the maintenance contracts and all the new product lines!Those are the moments where they must explain their support strategy and/or balance it with a much lower price in order to convince us in buying the product/service.The only thing that will make them listen: their wallet. If they continue to grow in numbers, no reason to rollback.

author: 6thimage
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2021, 12:16:10 pm
content: In theory, I'm not against registering a business, but as others have pointed out, practically it is not worth the time, money and effort to do so - I doubt I'll ever make enough money from this side business to justify the overheads of registering for VAT or as a company, and if I do, that's when I'll register.I have had a further email from Keysight:QuoteSo at least we have a date for when the change came in - were there any particularly large consumer law changes in 2020? It seems to be a little late for a reaction to the 2015 UK law.

author: AVGresponding
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2021, 01:39:03 pm
content: Quote from: 6thimage on August 27, 2021, 12:16:10 pmWell, that date is the first day of Britain outside the EU, so presumably it's some bizarre Brexit side-effect?

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2021, 02:04:35 pm
content: Quote from: tv84 on August 27, 2021, 07:35:48 amJust that, with this addition. In deciding whether to purchase Keysight, even if you're unaffected by the current fracas, it is well to remember that what brought this to the fore is people who bought Keysight productsin good faith, who are now being denied support by a change in Keysight's policies. By the way, Keysight could have had their new policyandavoided all this shit if they'd say "...but only for new sales. We will support products that we have already sold and are in the field."What could happen to you if you are currently on the list of people that Keysight will deal with and then, after you've spent your money, they say "Sorry, change of policy, we won't support you any more."? More than anything else this is about Keysight reneging on the implicit agreement that if you buy their products you can get support for their products. It's equivalent to Ford selling you a car and a few months later telling you that you can only use their dealer network or get parts from them if you're a business - within their own narrow definition of business that excludes a significant number of existing businesses that they have actively marketed to.The question when it's time for a purchasing decision will be "We've seen them pull the rug out from under some of their customers, can we trust them not to do it to us? Even if we think we're likely OK, do we want to support a company like behaves like that?". There are an increasing number of businesses that have "ethical purchasing" policies and this is the kind of behaviour that could fall foul of them.I run a small, tiny even, consulting business but my clients can beverylarge. There is already one huge supplier that is now on my"will not recommend" list because of encountering exactly the samekindof dumb headed intransigence in dealing with their support operation - different issue but the samekindof "We're doing thisourway, stuff you Mr. Customer, no matter what the facts are." attitude. The consulting contract I had at the time was with a division of a Fortune 500 company that had millions to potentially spend on their kit, you can figure the rest out for yourself - let's just say that the salesman from their main rival had a good year . Never, never, in business (or life in general) piss off someone or demonstrate to them how you'll screw someone over just because you think they don't matter, they may be much more important to your future than you think - most importantly, drum this into your most junior customer facing staff, they have the potential to do immense damage to your reputation by "just following company policy" in a rigid and intransigent manner.BTW, "Company-name support lack of" turns out to be quite a good search term for spotting these issues with a potential supplier and is now damning for Keysight.

author: NEDM64
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2021, 05:07:48 pm
content: Quote from: 6thimage on August 23, 2021, 06:14:09 pmNormal, I'm in Portugal, and I bought a DSO-X2002A for myself and it's not working and they just don't care and waste my time.I will never buy something from that brand that changes the name every 6 months. Hopefully they will got out of business.

author: YetAnotherTechie
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2021, 06:32:57 pm
content: Please help the thread:Who did you buy from?Who is not caring?Have you contacted eNGN Technologies? (the national autorized distributor)

author: NEDM64
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2021, 06:42:25 pm
content: Quote from: YetAnotherTechie on August 27, 2021, 06:32:57 pmDidn't even knew that was the national distributor, contacted Keysight two times, and first they gave me the middle finger and told me to buy Keysight Care, then keysightcare.emeai@keysight.com. They asked me the model, serial and company and it's has been 10 days without an answer.But I'm going to contact that company.

author: YetAnotherTechie
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2021, 07:45:15 pm
content: Before you do, check the forum again, there have been people that got the nand corruption fixed after warranty, you need to find the thread, i believe there was mention of an internal bulletin, and help from DanielBogdanoff.When you talk to eNGN, try to figure out their position on costumers that are not bussinesses, for sales and calibration too.

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2021, 06:23:51 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on August 26, 2021, 05:13:07 pmI never said to tell lies. All I said was to make communications seem normal for a company.e.g. don't start with... "Hi, I'm a hobbyist who uses model XYZ oscilloscope and I have a question about..."Instead, speak professionally and keep the tone of the email at a corporate level.

author: Pinkus
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2021, 10:09:08 am
content: Quote from: Cerebus on August 27, 2021, 02:04:35 pmSo true!More than 50% of my annual profit is generated by two big clients. The initial contact with both customers was just a small order and in both cases the responsible people ordered as private individuals and had the goods sent to their homes (as they did not want to deal with their internal ordering procedure which at many companies is quite complicated and time consuming).Some technical enquiries and my (I assume/hope) good support of these (at this time supposed) private individuals then led to a small order from the companies and finally, now for more than 10 years, to very large orders every few months.If I had pissed off these two private individuals at the beginning, these two companies would not have become my customers. Basically, this applies to many of my customers: recurring quite profitable orders ... after I have previously shown that I care.Biggest mistake a company can make: show an "i don't care of you" attitude to a customer.

author: iMo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2021, 11:01:39 am
content: Quote from: Pinkus on August 28, 2021, 10:09:08 amIn real life you should try to distinguish between an "one man show" company and a company like KS with billions $ revenue and xxx thousands of industrial customers..The number of people who are able to repair your rig is extremely limited in those large corporations (I worked in 3 such corporations). They have always a hard time to provide such a support to their existing industrial customer base. Their large customers usually buy a large number of goods - that generates enough revenue to cover warranty repairs. Therefore their employees are requested to provide such answers to somebody who does not fit into their actual business model. A repair of a gear is a fully different task than a production of that gear. Real costs of a 34470 repair might easily be higher than costs of production of the 34470 box itself.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2021, 11:44:20 am
content: Quote from: imo on August 28, 2021, 11:01:39 amIn HP the normal practice was to go out of their way to help customerseven when they didn't have to. I remember two occasions when anoldXY plotter failed just before an exhibition. HP loaned one for the duration of the exhibition. That kind of attitude enabled HP to grow over the decades.That kind of attitude was normal - and I know since I subsequently worked very happily in HP for over a decade. I only left when princess Carly dissolved the "HP Way" and Agilent split off.And that, mesdames et messieurs, is why so many people feel so bitter about and let down by this new corporate attitude.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2021, 12:59:50 pm
content: Yep. Also on this front, HP were more than happy to supply enough service information for large corporations to perform their own in house repairs and calibration. In the company I worked for we had enough people in the T&M department to cover this. If anyone got stuck, HP found you a contact who could help.This scaled down to one man outfits as well. Sometimes it’s the one man outfits that care enough to provide critical feedback on your products.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2021, 01:25:12 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on August 28, 2021, 11:44:20 amTo make things more funny, it seems it more likely today to get that kind of attention from Rigol, Siglent, Micsig, Picoscope than from people that built their reputation on that kind of attitude.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2021, 01:54:21 pm
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on August 28, 2021, 01:25:12 pmPossibly, but I have no experience so any comments would be worthless.I do know that HP built stuff that "met the spec" with no surprises. I've heard tales the other companies aren't quite as good in that respect.There's a famous "Bill and Dave" story that illustrated that. Under time pressure, the first version of the HP2000 minicomputers was released too early, and customers complained. When Packard heard about it he left a memo on the Paul Ely's desk (the project manager) saying "Please ensure we do not release products until they meet the advertised specifications". That was, in HP terms, one hell of a rebuke.It illustrates HP's ethos that Ely framed the memo and hung it on the wall - and went on to have an excellent career in HP.

author: Antonio90
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2021, 03:10:52 pm
content: It becomes clear that Keysight is completely out of the hobbyist market. Without service manuals, available parts nor any kind of repair or support, if your unit breaks after warranty it becomes a paperweight. I bet there are very few hobbyists willing to spend the kind of money they ask, even for their entry level DSOX1204 for 2 or 3 years of use, with no possibility of repair whatsoever after that.But, if they really want out of our market, I'm, honestly, not surprised that they don't provide support to individual customers, even if they don't sell to us at all.The consumer laws in Europe are rather protective towards the private buyer. And, as was previously stated, It means agreeing to potentially unfavourable terms, which include a fixed warranty time and the seller's burden of the proof in proving the cause of failure, amongst other things. On top of that, us amateurs and hobyists are most likely to break our equipment due to improper use and lack of knowledge.The laws are also going to get tighter for the sellers and manufacturers, so they might be trying to move fast to avoid having to cope with unnegotiated terms and conditions which apply to every private customer, irrespective of what they are buying, how much they are spending, or whether they know or not how to use their equipment.Besides that, having a registered VAT number, a small company or whatever, is generally painles in most european countries, and doesn't stand as an unreasonable requisite to me. Here in Spain I just have my own ID number as my registered VAT number. A company is also really cheap and fast now.The point is, I guess, that they just have a general policy within Europe, which is mostly reasonable and a pretty logical choice, but happens to create a lot of problems with the UK legal system, which is not surprising. There are a lot of problems trying to integrate and/or translate regulations, rights, certifications and all kind of legal concepts from the rest of Europe to the English Common Law.The logical solution would be to change the laws on the UK to make small companies viable, or for Keysight to have a system to differentiate businesses from amateurs irrespective of them legally being a company or not.There was another point made in the thread before, which was something like "why woul I have to cope with minimum warranty as a company when I can have a longer warranty due to consumer protection regulations?". That is exactly the point I guess. You can get the compulsory legal warranty as a consumer (and they might not want to play with those rules in the consumer market), or the variable proffesional warranty offered by the manufacturer, which will really depend on your position to negotiate with them.

author: AVGresponding
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2021, 03:15:01 pm
content: Quote from: imo on August 28, 2021, 11:01:39 amThis misses the point, pretty much completely.Keysight are refusing point blank to even quote for a repair (I question whether a repair can genuinely cost more than a replacement in any realistic situation), and refusing to even calibrate an instrument (in a more or less parallel thread).Cost is irrelevant; they are simply refusing to engage with "non-business" customers, andonly in the UK. They are apparently happy to continue to deal with non-business customers elsewhere in the world, unless I missed another thread like this.The date of the change and the region it applies to seem to point pretty much directly at it being some sort of Brexit consequence.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2021, 03:17:32 pm
content: Quote from: Antonio90 on August 28, 2021, 03:10:52 pmCouple of problems with that statement. Firstly some of us are or were professionals that happen to just be doing something else now. And secondly "professionals" are definitely on par with blowing equipment up. I have seen a couple of things turned to charcoal in a lab environment.Also on principle, why should a business have a different warranty to a consumer? What is the objective of the consumer protection? Well simply put it's supposed to reduce the cost impact of buying something that fails quickly and secondly to reduce the environmental impact of short life equipment. Should those not be business objectives?The end game is the consumer pays anyway as the responsibility gets pushed up to the nest of businesses which have to lump their equipment costs into the sales cost.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2021, 03:34:17 pm
content: Quote from: Antonio90 on August 28, 2021, 03:10:52 pmHP/Agilent/Keysight test equipment was neverinthe hobbyist market! It is too high end and too expensive.That's not the point. The point is they have changed their policy about equipmentyou already boughton the understanding you would be able to have them service it.QuoteI've broken things while working as an electronic engineer; embarassing! I've had things break while working as an electronic engineer; irritating.

author: Antonio90
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2021, 03:44:01 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on August 28, 2021, 03:17:32 pmMany of you are, indeed, but I bet most of us are not. I don't really know though, so my point can just be taken as invalid.There are many principles involved as far as I'm concerned. There are those you listed, and then there is the general lack of equilibrium of power between the parties of some legal relationships. The best example is labor law, which is basically a set of benefits an warranties for the labourer, to limit the, otherwise exorbitant, power of the company over the employee.In consumer law the situation is similar. It is assumed that the end consumer has no real power in his relationship with bigger players on the market, and there are a set of rules to protect him by legally binding any company that sells to an end customer. It includes warranty and repairs, but also especial rules for litigation, a lot of limitations regarding which contractual clauses are valid,an extensive right of withdrawal, and quite a few others.The point I was trying to make is that, for most practical purposes, a company loses its ability to decide on which terms the sale is made. I can't really decide whether that is mostly bad or mostly good, but I can understand why a company might not want to play in a market with those rules.And there is no point necessarily for the business warranty to be different. There is just no perceived need to "protect" them as the consumers are protected, in general terms. As such the warranty will be as offered by the seller, or as negotiated by the "equal" parts on the sale.There might be other regulations regarding the availability of parts, possibility of repair, disposal and recycling of equipment and so on, but I don't know much about that.

author: Antonio90
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2021, 03:55:00 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on August 28, 2021, 03:34:17 pmYeah, my point about hobbyist and pros was not very clever on hindsight. It was mostly motivated by picturing myself using test equipmentAnd there have been a lot of points besides that one on the thread. But anyway, If their support included consumers when the item was bought, It should include them now too indeed, and I bet, if you can prove that your use is professional enough, or that you are contracted as a professional, any court will say you're entitled to get support as any other business.

author: YetAnotherTechie
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2021, 04:13:41 pm
content: Quote from: Antonio90 on August 28, 2021, 03:10:52 pmIn KS case, EU consumer warranty law is de facto irrelevant, since the manufacturer warranty exceeds it by a long shot.Today, on KS website, buying online to Portugal:For a low rangeDSOX2002A Oscilloscope, 2-channel, 70MHz 1358€KeysightCare Technical Support -5 yearsReturn to Keysight Warranty -5 yearsFor a34461A Digital multimeter, 6 1/2 digit, Truevolt DMM 1041€KeysightCare Technical Support -3 yearsReturn to Keysight Warranty -3 yearsThese are among the cheapest products a hobiest or consumer can get from KS.And i disagree that in this range a consumer or hobbiest is higher risk for warranty damage.A hobbiest or consumer would find this gear expensive and take serious care not to damage it, while this kind of equipment in a company or more likely a school/university will be thrown around and handled by the most inept and "it's not mine" kind of asses.I believe their position probably has more to do with safety/EMC/REACH rules than warranty.German users should know more, because when i bought parts as a consumer for a VW or BMW car, on the box many had a symbol of a man, and a man in coveralls with a wrench, where the normal man was crossed, i.e. don't sell to non professionals, so they've had this rule for years, somewhere on a thread it was mentioned that being picky started with KS Germany.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2021, 06:10:38 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on August 28, 2021, 03:17:32 pmQuite honorable but not realistic. A business, however small, has the much higher potential of getting back to you for their next high $$$ purchase - you treat them very well. Individuals, not only are much more swayed by the used market (which could very well be a limiting factor in providing service for consumers) but put less weight in the value added of service contracts.Do I like that stance? Surely not, as I am myself an individual consumer of products.

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2021, 07:45:50 pm
content: How does it matter to Keysight Repair Dept. if a multimeter comes in for repair from Mr. Big Co. that has 100 units in service- or Mr. Small Fish that owns only one?There's no difference, other than paperwork for the owner's info and an account to bill in the end.Are these even repaired in the UK? I think it might have to get shipped across the pond to USA. They'd have the replacement boards, test/cal fixture, special firmware etc. at HQ. edit: no, that's all in china where they're manufactured.I thought Keysight UK is just too lazy to ship anything back home marked "No commercial value - Item for repair".

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 29, 2021, 12:17:09 am
content: It matters if your Tier 1 customers are backed up by the sheer amount of service. Design and testing activity has been high lately, therefore there is a chance the customers may be puling out inactive equipment from their inventory or just running into more issues due to overuse.I am old enough to have seen quite a lot of these scenarios in the industry: when the ability to support your Tier 1 dwindles for any reason, let it be unexpected demand, cost cutting, past RIFs, etc., hard decisions like these are taken.Sure, all this is speculation (I don't work at KS to know for sure), but large customers have preferencial service for many reasons, including the potential to bring a more stable revenue flow to maintain the cal/repair labs.

author: J-R
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 29, 2021, 02:30:28 am
content: I've been following this thread a bit and during my research I ended up watching most of Dave's 5-part John Kenny interview which has some relevant info about this I think.Publishing schematics has its challenges, from keeping them up to date to intellectual property theft concerns.Repair guides also require significant effort to produce and maintain. You need to cover a lot of failure modes. There is the concern of someone getting over their head attempting repairs by following the guides.Providing repair parts is a challenge as they place large orders for components for the number of units being manufactured at that time. Keeping extra spare parts sitting in a warehouse or having to buy them later in small quantities costs more money and just isn't cost effective.While we like fixing stuff here, in the economy of scale for a large company it is far more "efficient" to produce a replacement board and swap it or replace the entire unit than it is to pay someone to attempt repairs.There is some really interesting information in the videos and it shows that from the outside we may not fully appreciate all the factors that go into a company's decisions. And John states there have been times he fought decisions and sometimes he won and sometimes he lost.Out of curiosity I contacted Keysight and purchased a 1 year "KeysightCare Assured Renewal" for one of my devices that was out of warranty. They specifically asked me if I was a business or professional and I stated I was a professional. I only had to provide my name and address to proceed. I purchased the item a couple years ago from their ebay store.

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 29, 2021, 10:30:32 pm
content: No way to spin it- looks like a shit policy for OP and Keysight UK, and the no-communication says plentyI want a job where I can just stick my head in the ground, do nothing and get paid. Hey PR dept and exec get off the golf course already.In a corporate environment I won't buy equipment from manufacturers that are known to discriminate or screw over customers. Sure Tier 1 can afford all the drama, delay, breakdowns, shipping etc. and I would not be personally affected much, but for small guys this PFO can be devastating.I notice both 34470A MCUs are obsolete for some time now, unobtainium. DMM MCU TI LM3S1D21 and Front Panel MCU ST SPEAr320S-2 (BGA) also obsolete. FPGA Lattice LFXP2-5E-5TN144C is active.I'd wonder if the product is end-of-life, how many MCU's are stock-piled. This kind of component issue makes board swaps extra expensive and rare, if the supply is low.

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 29, 2021, 10:55:03 pm
content: Quote from: floobydust on August 29, 2021, 10:30:32 pmBased on past experience HPAK used to be quite good at reacting to "Last chance to buy" notifications from semiconductor suppliers and stocking up for potentially decades ahead. They were chugging out new 3458As well after some of the op amps and comparators used in the design had become vague memories at semiconductor stockists. Whether they are still good at this post the shitshow that Carly Fiorina generated is open to question.

author: MadTux
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 29, 2021, 11:11:19 pm
content: Guess I'll stick with the 50-20year old HP/Tek&Keithley stuff for the rest of my life.Unmatched quality with schematics and THT that is easy to solder.Never had much trouble fixing HP3456A or a Keithley 2015/196, why would I want a new Keysight piece of shit that I can't even fix myself???A few Tek7000 mainframes and some 7A13/7A22 is more than enough to work on audio amplifiers, variable frequency drives or welding inverters..... Who cares about GS/s and MSamples of memory, doesn't benefit me in any way in these applications. 7A22 can handle abuse, new Keysight DSO likely can't and becomes expensive brick.And since I got that great letter from Keysight a few years ago, where they threatened me about some devices that got sold on ebay instead of being scrapped, they can kiss me where the sun doesn't shine.....

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 29, 2021, 11:22:58 pm
content: Quote from: Cerebus on August 29, 2021, 10:55:03 pmPrincess Carly can be blamed for many things, but not the Agilent spinoff.

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 29, 2021, 11:53:24 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on August 29, 2021, 11:22:58 pmI thought she was there pre-spinout but I'm quite happy to ascribe that to failing memory. It's the same thing in principle though, even if she personally was not the direct instigator, put MBAs and beancounters who've hadtheoperation* in charge of something that ought to be run by human beings, preferably ones that are also engineers.*Heart out, cash register in.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2021, 01:55:08 am
content: Quote from: floobydust on August 29, 2021, 10:30:32 pmYou confuse me with some corporate shill trying to spin this - get over it. Listen and learn that's the reality in many of the corporate environments that have R&D, support, etc.As for leaving the little guy behind, it is indeed a terrible policy and shouldat leastnot affect folks currently under warranty.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2021, 08:20:31 am
content: Quote from: Cerebus on August 29, 2021, 11:53:24 pmShe was there for months not years before spinout, but apinout would have happened with or without her.UK HP employees will remember that period well. Most of us had HP shares, and one moment we had £X, the next £X minus the tax due on the Agilent portion of that £X. Many HMRC inspectors couldn't believe that, but it was true. The split was done in a way that didn't matter in the US, but did in the UK.About a week before the end of the tax year, it was announced that the tax would be CGT rather than income tax?! Result: most people flogged their Agilent shares pronto, so as not to have a CGT liability. I suspect HMRC and HP had had many behind the scenes conversations.

author: Alex Nikitin
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 11, 2021, 11:21:25 pm
content: Just when I thought about buying the 34465A for my own home lab.... If I understand the situation correctly, Keysight won't sell me one directly and if I buy from RS or Farnell I am up the creek without a paddle after the 3 year warranty is finished (and even during that time the best I can hope for is an exchange from RS/Farnell, might even have trouble with that). And I won't have a chance to calibrate the meter at Keysight ... . It looks like I have to look for other options, not from them.CheersAlex

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 11, 2021, 11:35:38 pm
content: I'd reach out and phone Agilent UK and ask them what the post-warranty repair policy is, in writing. Or go to the HQ in USA and ask. The corporation is too big for anyone there to care enough to stick out their neck and answer this crap.United Kingdom; Telford 0800 0260637, Winnersh 0800 0260637Neither is listed as a "Keysight Authorized Service Provider".Worse yet, they seem to be changing things:"Coming soon – newKeysight Support portalwill provide personalized access for all of your support needs including Keysight Infoline Support.""Now incorporating KeysightCare, Infoline and myKeysight portals""We populate dynamic grids for verified users by country and company so you see all your assets in one place."Nothing listed for the UK.

author: philpem
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 12, 2021, 01:39:44 am
content: Quote from: AVGresponding on August 28, 2021, 03:15:01 pmThe Brexit possibility is an interesting one. Given the fetish the current UKgov has for their ridiculous, separate "UKCA" scheme to "compete" with the CE-mark -- it's not entirely impossible that KS UK might have decided the safest route to take with non-UKCA kit is to simply stop supporting it.Can't be done legally - don't do it at all...It is disappointing. My U1251A is finally starting to wear out. I was going to order another from Farnell this coming week - but I might well go back to buying Fluke. Or even just some cheap Chinese DMM if the level of support is going to become somewhat equal (ie equally poor!) across the board!

author: oz2cpu
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2022, 09:27:08 pm
content: I was 10 sec away from ordering a brand new 34470A today.. saw this thread, but now i put the decision on hold..please tell me i am wrong ?or what else to get, with same or better specs, thanks..yes i will be ordering it from Germany

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2022, 09:44:37 pm
content: Quote from: oz2cpu on January 09, 2022, 09:27:08 pmUser Dr.Frank did some measurements:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/keysight_s-new-34465a-(6-5-digit)-and-34470a-(7-5-digit)-bench-multimeters/msg889219/#msg889219Also there were some problems with ACAL on 34470...https://www.eevblog.com/forum/metrology/keysight-34470a-calibration-and-acal-problems/msg2314671/#msg2314671I'm curious, would you be maybe better served with TWO 34465 than a single 34470 ?Price would be similar...

author: Kleinstein
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2022, 09:49:18 pm
content: An alternative meter to the 34470 could be the DMM7510.

author: HalFoster
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2022, 09:59:20 pm
content: I'm an owner of a 7510 and have nothing but praise for it - love the display and the ease of use.Hal

author: kcbrown
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2022, 11:48:24 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on August 23, 2021, 09:28:53 pmSince this thread has been brought to the fore again, I thought I'd respond to this.Registering and maintaining a business has costs associated with it, both initial and recurring, and both in terms of time and out of pocket expense. Those costs will obviously vary from country to country, as well as with the type of business, but they exist all the same. If what we were talking about here were something that was itself a recurring thing, then doing that might well be justifiable.But what we're talking about here is aone time repair, or, at least, one-time acquisition of parts. That already has costs associated with it. At some point, the cost of dealing with the malfunction plus the cost of setting up and maintaining the business will exceed the price of a replacement unit, after which the original unit will be able to act as a source of spare parts if nothing else.I can't tell at what point those costs intersect, but won't be surprised if that would be a handful of years at most.In any case, registering a business and going through all of the things required to maintain it seemsquiteexcessive just for the "privilege" of getting your test equipment repaired. It may be that having such a "business" gets you some perks. But that's irrelevant here. People who have real use for those perks and who have decided that they're worth the additional hassle and expense will have already registered a business, making this a non-issue for them in the first place. The OP is clearly not such a person. For him, hissole purposeof going out of his way to register and maintain the business would be to make repair of his unit possible. Thatisexcessive. At a minimum, he will be without use of his unit until the registration is approved.And because a future repair may be necessary, it may (depending on the laws in his country) be necessary for him to maintain his "business" simply to have theoptionof a later repair. Or it may be that he can perform the registration, get the unit repaired, and then immediately terminate the "business", and recreate it at whatever point he may need a future repair.His alternative is to simply purchase an equivalent replacement unit, likely from a different manufacturer who will actually stand behind their products purchased by an individual in the UK, and to sell the 34470A (thus offsetting the cost somewhat) or keep it for parts.Frankly, if I were the OP, and absent circumstances that I'm not aware of, there wouldn't even be a question in my mind of the proper approach here: I'd replace the unit with one from a manufacturer that isn't stupid enough to jeopardize its future sales like Keysight is clearly doing here. Since Keysight has clearly decided that individuals are not worth anything to them, the OP has plenty of incentive to, in his own way, make it clear to themexactlywhat the consequences of such a myopic policy is: the loss of business both from this individual and from any company he has sufficient influence over.If Keysight's decision here turns out to be a beneficial one for them, then more power to them. But I see no reason whatsoever for an individual to play their game. It's only by changing our purchasing actions that we as individuals can cause Keysight to see the real consequences of their policy, for better or for worse.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2022, 12:33:55 am
content: Quote from: kcbrown on January 09, 2022, 11:48:24 pmNot really. In most western countries you can register a company for free or for very low expenses. Accountants like to portray them as absolutely necessary but in reality they are not.Another option is ofcourse to bring your equipment to a Keysight reseller for service. After all, you don't bring your car to the factory for repairs but you have it serviced at a dealer or universal garage. Test equipment is no different. I'm quite surprised that this thought hasn't occured to others (or they keep quiet about it).

author: mawyatt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2022, 12:41:58 am
content: Quote from: Kleinstein on January 09, 2022, 09:49:18 pmExactly why I created this thread.https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/dmm6500-dmm7510-vs-34465a-34470a-ac-readings/msg3928643/#msg3928643Best,

author: kcbrown
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2022, 01:03:07 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on January 10, 2022, 12:33:55 amIt'll obviously depend on the country. But note that the expenses involved aren't just a question of money, they're a question of the individual's time.That said, from what I can find about the question of registering a limited business in the UK, it looks pretty minimal, about 13 pounds initially and then the same amount once per year after that. I've no idea how much effort goes into the registration, however.QuoteAutomobile dealerships quite obviously have the facilities to perform repairs, and never have to send the car back to the factory for repairs. The factories don't do repairs: the dealerships do. I'd bemostinterested in which test equipment resellers have official (manufacturer-approved) on-site repair capabilities. My bet is "none".That makes it a somewhat apples to oranges comparison. It may be that a given reseller would be willing to act as the intermediary between Keysight and the individual for the repair in question, but unless that individual bought his equipment from that reseller, I'm skeptical that they'd be willing to do any such thing. And seeing how Keysight's contract with resellers demands that they warrant that the equipment they sell be used only by companies and professionals for industrial use, I'm deeply skeptical that the contractual terms they have with Keysight would allow them to send an individually-owned piece of equipment back to Keysight for repairs in any case.Even so, that's something the OP should consider attempting.

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2022, 01:45:12 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on January 10, 2022, 12:33:55 amYou keep saying this or something like this, and repeatedly multiple people, some of whom have done it multiple times say that this is not so. Who, on the balance of probabilities, is more likely to have the better grasp on the facts? Presumably you have the facts to hand, including a list of fees for "most western countries"? You couldn't possibly be extrapolating from the one country that you have done this in once? No, surely not.Let's examine that for a handful of countries, for the smallest, simplest limited liability corporation.UK*, £10-£40 on incorporation (depends on route), £13-£40 confirmation fee each year.France, not simple or straightforward, seems to require lawyers, suggested costs €2000 minimum initial cost.Germany, "Company formation fee: the company formation fee for opening a legal entity in Germany is approximately 1,800 euros." Minimum capital of €25,000.Italy, minimum cost in government fees 309.87 EUR each year assuming you're doing all the work yourself.Netherlands, Non-recurring registration fee of € 51.95.Hmm, haven't seen any "free" yet, and my suspicion that one might form a simplistic idea if one was judging the expense and complexity from experience only in the Netherlands seems to be forming up as right.* This is the only one I have done myself. The naked registration fees are misleading as to the true costs and complexity. Youcanregister a company in the UK doing all the work yourself and just paying official registration fees, you alsocanget into a right mess if you get it wrong and frankly you're a fool if you don't get a company registrations agent to do it for you for a fee that's at most £200. If you register for VAT, which is in itself free, you will have to buy HMRC approved software to make electronic VAT returns, and you will have to make quarterly VAT returns every quarter, even if they are zero, or youwillget fined. You will also have to make returns to companies houseeveryyear andwillget fined if you don't or submit late (the fines are stiff enough that it is a really bad idea to incur them). Keeping up with VAT and annual returns incurs a non-trivial cost in time, even if you don't pay someone else to manage it for you (e.g. accountant). It would be a lot of palaver and risk to acquire just to do business with Keysight.

author: KaneTW
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2022, 05:10:50 am
content: Quote from: Cerebus on January 10, 2022, 01:45:12 amSorry, but no. Registering as a self-employed person (which grants you a VAT ID) costs nothing or basically nothing. VAT handling isn't difficult as well.Even if you want to have limited liability, you can get by with less than 500 EUR and a minimum capital of 1 EUR to form a UG. The 25k limit is for a GmbH.

author: HighVoltage
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2022, 10:16:58 am
content: Quote from: oz2cpu on January 09, 2022, 09:27:08 pmIt depends largely on your plan for the 34470A.If you want to have reliable DC absolute comparison with 7 1/2 digits resolution forget the 34470A because of the ACAL problems! For this purpose, the DMM7510 is a much better instrument.On the other hand, if you want reliable low DC current measurements, the 34470A is better than the DMM7510.And the 34465A is recommended every time. This instrument I would buy again and again with no hesitation.It always depends on what you want to do with such instrument.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2022, 10:30:16 am
content: QuoteAnd there is an additional hidden cost in that most accounting software nowadays is a subscription service.TBH I do wonder if Keysight actually check any of this.

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2022, 10:40:36 am
content: Quote from: KaneTW on January 10, 2022, 05:10:50 amGiven the context, what do Keysight want you to be before they will do business with you? "Self-employed" doesn't cut it as far as Keysight are concerned. That's already well established in this thread. Neither does having just a VAT number, all Portuguese have personal VAT numbers and one of them has said that wasn't enough for Keysight.

author: oz2cpu
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2022, 12:00:17 pm
content: i just send back a 34465A due to sometimes wrong readings, it took me 3 x 24 hr to reveal this bug, it only did it 3 times,one random button pressed, fixed the readoutnow i hear it was with old firmware, now they upgrade it, it was LOCKED for firmware upgrades, WTF a nasty feature...and hopefully i can redo my experiments soon..

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2022, 04:00:44 am
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on January 10, 2022, 10:30:16 amI think you can get Excel add-ins that can upload VAT returns? - so maybe doesn't need to be expensive...

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2022, 04:02:14 am
content: Quote from: oz2cpu on January 10, 2022, 12:00:17 pmShrodinger's DMM?

author: TheSteve
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 11, 2022, 06:20:24 am
content: Quote from: oz2cpu on January 10, 2022, 12:00:17 pmOf course firmware updates are locked - you have to put in a code(which is in the manual) to perform an update as in a commercial environment its possible a firmware update will change something and mess up your automated test routines etc. It is pretty standard in high end commercial gear.

author: Saskia
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 31, 2022, 06:06:08 pm
content: wanted some spares. Was told by Keysight that without VAT-ID I could not get any service, support, etc.I found a buyer for my MSOX3054T and my 2002. Will put up my N6700 and my Logic Analyzer Mainframe as well.My replacement scope is a R+S, my DMMs are now Fluke or Keithley.Needless to say, won't be buying Keysight for use at work ...

author: Zenith
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 31, 2022, 07:17:08 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on August 30, 2021, 08:20:31 amPlatt was clearly out of control. It was too much for him to manage, but apparently he was well thought of when he went to Boeing.The Agilent spinoff seemed like a good idea at the time, and I think it probably was. Although I thought they should have just called it PH, Packard-Hewlett, and avoided spending millions on a consultancy to contrive a name. It was committted to by the time Kali, the goddess of destruction, arrived on the scene. I doubt she could have changed it even if she wanted to.The share position was a mess for us in the UK. Long before then I found that it was impossible to find anyone in HMRC who would admit to any knowledge of CGT on shares.A number of ills can be laid at Carly's door, but the Agilent spinoff isn't one of them.

author: voltsandjolts
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 31, 2022, 07:37:50 pm
content: Quote from: Saskia on July 31, 2022, 06:06:08 pmWhile I agree with your sentiment, couldn't you use your employers VAT-ID, with permission?

author: Saskia
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 31, 2022, 07:54:25 pm
content: absolutely not for multiple reasons, many of them being tax laws related.It's better for me to actually dump my Keysight stuff than to get caught with my pants down.Needless to say that that's that.

author: voltsandjolts
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 31, 2022, 08:40:11 pm
content: I was in no way suggesting you commit VAT fraud.If, like you, I needed Keysight parts, I'd order them, pay with my own card, use my employers VAT number and get them shipped to my work address. Yes, it's a nonsense caused by customer-hostile Keysight policy but it's not illegal, VAT is never reclaimed. It's just a number on the receipt.

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 31, 2022, 08:54:28 pm
content: Quote from: Saskia on July 31, 2022, 07:54:25 pmYeah, if you're doing it just to make Keysight happy by giving them a VAT number there's a real risk that it's going to look like VAT fraud (particularly if it involves any cross-border transactions). The VAT you paid out privately could appear as VAT paid out by the company which could reduce the companies' apparent VAT liability or even trigger an actual cash refund from the tax authority.If I wanted to use my own (VAT registered) company to work around Keysight's peculiarities, I'd have to get my company to buy the parts/service from Keysight, then I'd have to buy the parts/service from my own company, shuffle real money around and account for it all before I'd be in the clear with the tax authorities. Just too much trouble. Doing it with an employer's company would be messy, even if they were inclined to help out.

author: voltsandjolts
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 31, 2022, 09:03:31 pm
content: Quote from: Cerebus on July 31, 2022, 08:54:28 pmCurious, how does that work, exactly?

author: Saskia
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 31, 2022, 09:14:08 pm
content: Cerberus pointed it out quite nicely. no, over here it doesn't work like that. my employer would rather terminate my contract than commit tax fraud which in fact such a transaction you propose would amount to.So that is definitely a no go. There are alternatives, and I'd rather dump Keysight than put up with their bull.

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 31, 2022, 11:32:57 pm
content: Quote from: voltsandjolts on July 31, 2022, 09:03:31 pmWell you privately would pay VAT to the supplier (company Y), for which you don't have to account to anyone. Also you'd be handing over company X's VAT number to company Y, who would record in their books that they received <whatever> VAT from company X (because that's who you've presented yourself as).One of two things then happen unless you down the full "you purchase + VAT from X, who then purchase + VAT from Y" route.Company X have to account for their VAT transactions to the tax authorities, to kept their records straight they say that they had to hand out <whatever> VAT to company Y, this amount comes off the bill they owe to the VATman (i.e. amount due to VAT man = VAT on sales - VAT on purchases, hencevalue addedtax) but they didn't actually pay it out - so fraud.Alternative scenario, company X don't account for the VAT, an audit of X or Y reveals the accounting discrepancy, a charge of failing to properly keep accounts for VAT follows. Under the EU way of doing things, you don't pay VAT for cross border transactions but you do record the value, VAT number and country - the governments then settle up the balance between themselves and it's the audit trail during this reconciliation that is most likely to cause you to come a cropper if there's anything irregular going on.The only way you can keep it straight is to actually buy the service/part from X and hand over money to X for it, who then actually buy the service/part from Y, and properly account for both the sales and purchase monies and VAT.My personal company is idling at the moment, which means I have no sales. Thus every quarter I get a VAT refund for all the things the company still has to buy while it's idling, which basically amounts to the VAT on my accountant's fees.