Free Unlimited Version of AutoTRAX PCB Design Software - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Iliya
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 20, 2015, 07:37:15 pm
content: I am pleased to announce the Free version of AutoTRAX DEX. This is the non-commercial (not for profit) version. It is the identical version as the commercial version. There is only one binary program. The only restriction is that it must be used for non-commercial projects. There is no demo program; there’s no need!You do not need to register for the free software.It does not have a time limit.There is no limit to the number or size of sheets.There are no layer limits or PCB size limits.There are no adverts for PCB board manufacturers.The BOM does not ‘guide’ you to a major component distributor.Unlike other EDA programs, DEX has just one simple to understand price for commercial use. Non-commercial use is totally free with no limits except it must be used for non-commercial use. Simply put, non-commercial use is totally free, commercial use is not. If you are making $$$ out of your design then it is only fair that you pay an equally fair single price.Now that's a refreshing change!Visit the web site for more...EnjoyRegardsIliya Kovac, Developer of AutoTRAX DEXSpreading the joy

author: TerraHertz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 21, 2015, 12:18:40 am
content: Quote from: Iliya on January 20, 2015, 07:37:15 pmOh excellent! From the description page on the web site it looks great. Downloaded! email: guykd@.....Is this software a descendant of the old Protel Autotrax? If so, are old Autotrax custom parts libraries compatible? Old projects?I used to use Protel Autotrax a lot, years ago when still working. Lately I've been planning to do design work again, but hadn't decided what schem/pcb package to use. At my age learning curves are a bitch. Just sticking with my old tools seemed like a good idea, since gerbers are presumably still the same. On principle I prefer free software (unless I'm making a profit by it.) Also in a practical sense since I'm poor AND one needs so many different software tools to do much, buying isn't really an option. If I ever do make a profit (unlikely) I'll be glad to pay.If this is a descendant of Protel Autotrax, in private-use freeware form, and I can load old projects and libraries, it's an answer to my prayers! Thank you!Pic: my old Protel manuals.Edit: Hmmm.. $49 offer till next Sat 24th. Now that I can afford - just. Ha ha. Will give it a try before then, and see.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 21, 2015, 01:07:21 am
content: I wish it would support also Mac OSX and Linux. Very important for open source designs.

author: baljemmett
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 21, 2015, 01:12:14 am
content: Quote from: TerraHertz on January 21, 2015, 12:18:40 amNo, it's completely unrelated - just uses the name now the Protel one is effectively abandoned.

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 21, 2015, 02:08:00 am
content: Thanks, interesting, will try it when I had the chance, downloaded with installation key "W*********" .

author: TerraHertz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 21, 2015, 02:14:23 am
content: Quote from: baljemmett on January 21, 2015, 01:12:14 amOh well, so file compatibility is vanishingly unlikely then. Pity. I was kind of hoping Iliya might have been a developer at protel or something.I won't have time to give it more than a superficial try before the sale ends on Sat. And superficial tryouts never tell one much about how well software works on real projects.Has anyone had working experience with Autotrax DEX, and what are your impressions?OK google, that's what I get for not reading the CAD threads. I see this has been a hot topic there for _years_. 8 pages to catch up on.https://www.eevblog.com/forum/eda/opinions-autotrax-design-express-2020/Hmm, how long has it been $50 I wonder?At least it's not node-locked (to a specific machine.) That's one thing I flatly refuse to accept, from ANY software.

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 21, 2015, 05:54:40 am
content: Very superficially this looks pretty good. I have not had the time to investigate sufficiently to make a decision but is this worth buying? It is free to do anything personally but is ti worth my time to learn and buy?

author: DeanA
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 21, 2015, 07:34:21 am
content: Quote from: TerraHertz on January 21, 2015, 12:18:40 amHi TerraHertzI think you can download a free version of Protel Autotrax from herehttp://techdocs.altium.com/display/ALEG/Legacy+DownloadsI also started off using Protel Autrotrax (back last century in the late 80's if I remember correctly). Since then I have used "Protel for Windows", "Protel 98", "Protel99SE", and "AltiumDesigner10". Protel Autrotrax was quite a capable package, we designed many commercial products using Autotrax, a lot of the keyboard shortcuts remain the same all the way to AD10 (and beyond I assume).Regards,Dean.

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 21, 2015, 07:46:16 am
content: What happens if i make a PCB and release the gerbers to the world for free (so non profit use).And someone else then takes my gerbers from the net and uses them for a commercial product?If the generated outputs are totally free then this can happen, or does the free version only generate files licensed under an open hardware license?Or is it more of an honesty system?

author: pickle9000
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 21, 2015, 07:58:48 am
content: I'll give it a try.

author: Iliya
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 21, 2015, 11:29:23 am
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on January 21, 2015, 10:12:37 amYou can download the AutoTRAX 109,951 parts library fromhere…These are all the parts in the Eagle library together with all the community parts from the Element 14 site (up to end of 2013).These are converted from the separate symbol and footprint libraries into a collection of separate AutoTRAX parts. AutoTRAX parts contain all the information for a parts symbols and footprint/land pattern, the part files are XML and do not refer to any other files so they are extremely portable.The AutoTRAX parts panel has a multi-threaded search function that searches all the parts for matching search patterns. Regular expressions are used. AutoTRAX indexes the parts library in the background for fast search.AutoTRAX allows you to edit the placed symbols and footprints in place in projects. You can use the Part Builder Panel to change the footprints from say DIP to SOIC and alter the pad pitch and size. The 3D is automatically generated for parametric parts, so no need to bulking 3D model libraries. However, AutoTRAX can import 3D models.P.S.Never trust a parts library. Check, check and check again.

author: Iliya
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 21, 2015, 11:35:37 am
content: Quote from: Psi on January 21, 2015, 07:46:16 amAutoTRAX uses anhonestysystem. Even if a user deliberately uses it for commercial use all I could claim in court for damages is $49. AutoTRAX does not check.The free AutoTRAX does not use a license manager. You can move the installed programs to anywhere. AutoTRAX does not use any registry entries, all application data is stored in C:\Users\XXX\AppData\Roaming\AutoTRAX Software\DEX where XXX is your account name. All the files are human readable XML files.I'm not going to chase people for $49.Why steal it when it only costs $49

author: ozwolf
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 21, 2015, 12:50:23 pm
content: Thank you Iliya, much appreciated. I even downloaded the user manual, wow, 600+ pages?Ozwolf

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 21, 2015, 12:53:45 pm
content: Quote from: Iliya on January 21, 2015, 11:29:23 amEspecially don't trust that library. Both the official Eagle libs and the Element14 ones are rife with sheer crap.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 21, 2015, 01:09:25 pm
content: Quote from: TerraHertz on January 21, 2015, 12:18:40 amNope, completely different.The story as I know it is that Protel/Altium were not happy at the time, and there was some dispute between them, but the Autotrax name was never trademarked, or they let it lapse or some such, so Altium didn't push it in the end.But I'm sure Iliya can fill us in first-hand if he chooses.I've always though the use of the name was just silly and confusing for everyone, Iliya knew perfectly well Protel had used that name for a long time.I'm impressed by the new free offerAnd have always been impressed that this is a one man effort.

author: Iliya
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 21, 2015, 01:44:39 pm
content: Quote from: ozwolf on January 21, 2015, 12:50:23 pmI'm working on fleshing out the manual. Loads of stuff to add.There are also 93 tutorial videos. These are not sales videos. They teach you something, not try to sell you overpriced software.Click to see the videos... (No adverts!)

author: Iliya
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 21, 2015, 02:06:50 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on January 21, 2015, 01:09:25 pmProtel (now Altium) never trademarked AutoTRAX.When I registered the trademark I searched the Protel web site for AutoTRAX. No reference found. I emailed Nick Martin in 2002 that I intended to market AutoTRAX.The only reply I got from them was basically they reserved the right to use AutoTRAX in Australia. Then all of a sudden Protel AutoTRAX appeared on their website as a free download. (Perhaps to cover their backsides).Anyway, no contact since 2002. Like that Parrot, Protel AutoTRAX could be deceased.Can't see them ever using the AutoTRAX name - too much connection to the long gone founder of Altium. Perhaps they could make a new cut-down free version of CircuitMaker called AutoTRAX!In 1981 I developed the first version of AutoTRAX on DOS (Not the Protel version) but decided not to sell it. It had a maze auto-router and that's why I called it AutoTRAX. I used the software to develop an AutoCAD add-on. I even formed a limited company AutoTRAX Ltd. back in 1981. I never knew about Protel.I restarted AutoTRAX in 2000 after being fleeced of $1000 US for an educational copy of Multisim/Ultiboard. I though I had purchase the full version (Well I paid $1000!) but they were functions missing. So I thought S#D it, here goes.... The rest is history.

author: Iliya
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 21, 2015, 03:19:07 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on January 21, 2015, 02:44:48 pmMy first ever contract was with Apricot Computers in Birmingham, England. I wrote all the test software for their computers (except the hard drive). The software tested the computers and did burn-in test in production. I wrote an O/S that loaded the programs and ran them. Even did a simple GUI menu. After a few months I went down to manufacturing and saw my program running on 100’s of computers. So satisfying and that’s partly why!http://www.old-computers.com/museum/computer.asp?c=499&st=1I also hate the dishonest pricing policy of ALL of the commercial EDA companies out there. It’s like selling a 4 seater car but there are chains on the back seat that will be unlocked when you pay the extra $$$.Seehttp://pcb-design-software.com/Newsletter/CancunI was loathed to do a free version and preferred one price. However, this was keeping people from using it so I finally gave in. But I still refuse to locks the back seats so no limits except for non-commercial use. Hopefully more people will get to use my ‘baby’ - AutoTRAX.

author: aroby
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 21, 2015, 03:56:26 pm
content: I will certainly try this out. I've not created my own PCBs before and battled for hours with Eagle and its awful UI just to re-create a fairly straightforward schematic for a board I want to modify. I'd have done better putting the layout file in Photoshop or Powerpoint and modifying that directly!Anthony

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 21, 2015, 04:13:08 pm
content: I wish I could run this via Crossover/Wine. Is this anything that could be fixed?Edit: After I close that dialog, it proceeds to run the splash screen, where the progress bar appears to oscillate forever.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 21, 2015, 04:35:33 pm
content: a word of friendly advice : please please please remove the horrible pcb layout you use in the images on your website.take a moment to grab a properly laid-out board and use that in your marketing material. something medium to high density with surface mounted parts and properly laid out traces.i can tell you first impressions matter. i showed this to a couple of friends. their first reaction invariably was : looks like a crappy tool , look at what a mess that board is.. they were judging your program by the quality of the layout shown on your website ! i know it is wrong because that layout says nothing about the capabilities of the program. it only says that whoever made that layout is a baboon.but perception counts !like i said friendly advice. that board is horrendous.

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 21, 2015, 04:40:12 pm
content: Quote from: free_electron on January 21, 2015, 04:35:33 pmI second thissomuch. The software looks good, but you demonstrate it being used to create shite. It's not a very good advertisementAlso, I personally think the slideshow of random PCB images that are clearlynotdone with your software is a bit dodgy. Doesn't seem right to advertise with layouts done in other packages. Though, that's just me...

author: Iliya
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 21, 2015, 04:54:24 pm
content: Quote from: c4757p on January 21, 2015, 04:40:12 pmTry this ...[url=http://schematic-software.com/]http://schematic-software.com/

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 21, 2015, 05:30:53 pm
content: same problem.i circled the eye-popping stuff.if you show this kind of 'artwork' to anyone that does PCB design they will walk away from your software without even trying it.It's like having a Aston Martin dealership, but all cars are covered in mud , the carpet is ratty , the windows haven't been washed in years , the wallpaper is peeling off , the door is hanging crooked in its hinges and the salesguy welcomes you wearing a green suit ( that was originally black ), greasy hair and smelling like wee.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 21, 2015, 05:33:57 pm
content: here is another onethat board was not routed. it is just a collection of orthogonal lines. everything has square pads apart from r4 ? what makes r4 special ?and then everything was crammed in under the chip on bottom layer creating a wave mess.

author: Iliya
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 21, 2015, 05:43:07 pm
content: Quote from: free_electron on January 21, 2015, 05:33:57 pmThe image is too small to see details.It was routed with Electra.

author: Iliya
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 21, 2015, 05:44:47 pm
content: Quote from: Iliya on January 21, 2015, 04:54:24 pmLoads of slides athttp://pcb-design-software.com/Features/PCBs-Screenshots

author: Iliya
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 21, 2015, 05:49:18 pm
content: Quote from: c4757p on January 21, 2015, 04:13:08 pmI have uploaded another version that should capture the exception. However, there is already an exception handler inside DEX for this. This could be Wine. What O/S are you using?The software is looking for a licence text XML file the but wine is stopping it. If DEX does not find it then it run as non-commercial.http:///pcb.software/Download

author: Iliya
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 21, 2015, 05:52:31 pm
content: Quote from: free_electron on January 21, 2015, 05:30:53 pmYes, I could do with a reference design. Do you know of one from a manufacturer's site?I used TPH resistors as they look more visually appealing than boring miniature SMT resistors

author: Iliya
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 21, 2015, 06:15:38 pm
content: Quote from: free_electron on January 21, 2015, 05:30:53 pmCan't see anything in the image. Too small to see the eye-popping stuff.I think this comparison is over the top and I don't smell like wee, have a faded black suit etc.

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 21, 2015, 06:22:02 pm
content: Don't be insulted. free_electron is just being blunt about how the provided example board appears, not your software. He is trying to help, not insult you. Simply change the board to something without glaring errors in routing and your software will not have the bad looking design detracting from what the software can actually do.

author: Iliya
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 21, 2015, 06:43:19 pm
content: Quote from: Lightages on January 21, 2015, 06:22:02 pmThe PCB was auto-routed with Electra. What's the problem with the routing so I can report it back to Konekt, the author of the router. It is not a manually routed board. Very few AutoTRAX users use Electra (probably the price!) they prefer to manually route the board.Drawing a comparison to a urine soaked trampy salesman is not the best thing to do. Anyway, that's water under the bridge.

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 21, 2015, 06:50:20 pm
content: The problemisthat it's autorouted. It's not a problem with the autorouter, you just aren't supposed to use one to route an entire board all at once - it comes out as complete crap.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 21, 2015, 06:51:48 pm
content: as for this ...there are so many things wrong with this simple drawing.the resistors have the wrong aspect ration. cross connectins are a no-no in schematic drafting. only T-junctions are allowed.since when are resistors polarized ?you NEVER draw polarized capacitors upside down !there is a missing dot betweenS1 and R13 at the junction.There are drafting standard you know.you may find some of my remarks above silly , like the aspect ratio of the resistor , but there is an actual ISO standard that defines it as having a 1:3 aspect ration. these are internationally accepted drafting standards.People who do this kind of stuff for a living will look at this simple drawing and go 'crap'. yes, the drawing is crap. unfortunately that rubs off on your software. the software may be great but the produced artwork is not up to par.

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 21, 2015, 06:55:51 pm
content: Quote from: free_electron on January 21, 2015, 06:51:48 pmI suspect that's just a marking in the software to indicate which pin it considers pin '1' - which I really like, actually.Assuming that little red + doesn't show up in graphical exports of the schematic, that's quite lovely.The resistors do look funny. Interesting about the standard aspect ratio - which standard is that? I wonder if I'd want to make my custom KiCad library conform to that.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 21, 2015, 07:04:32 pm
content: Quote from: Iliya on January 21, 2015, 06:15:38 pm

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 21, 2015, 07:13:54 pm
content: Quote from: c4757p on January 21, 2015, 06:55:51 pmIEC60617i actually found my altium library the aspect ratio for a resistor is slightly off. i am correcting them.there will be a big overhaul in the coming weeks. i have generator scripts to create linked pools of resistors. ( with digikey links directly in em )i go to digikey , go 0805 1% yageo. save as excel file.run the script and plnk there is a library with all of em including footprint and part links.

author: abaxas
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 21, 2015, 07:28:48 pm
content: Horrible website... please pay someone some money to get it at least looking professional.

author: Iliya
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 21, 2015, 07:31:18 pm
content: Quote from: c4757p on January 21, 2015, 04:40:12 pmI have changed the slide show images. All from AutoTRAX except the first, that's from ShutterStock (stock pictures) I just like that one: You may need to refresh to overwrite cached images. Thanks for telling me.

author: Rigby
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 21, 2015, 07:48:26 pm
content: Quote from: free_electron on January 21, 2015, 07:13:54 pmSweet.

author: Iliya
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 21, 2015, 08:05:57 pm
content: Quote from: free_electron on January 21, 2015, 07:13:54 pmi go to digikey , go 0805 1% yageo. save as excel file.Can you please explain more? Is there a way of getting a CSV file of digikey parts?

author: Iliya
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 21, 2015, 08:26:30 pm
content: Quote from: abaxas on January 21, 2015, 07:28:48 pmWhat's wrong with it? It looks great on your mobile phone. Try resizing the browser window to see what happens.I created it using Visual Studio 2013, MVC5 and HTML5,SVG,WebGL and CSS3.Like all things artistic, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I think Lowry pictures are just childish sketches but other pay big $$$ ( though they may really think they are just childish sketches, but well there's fashion ).The point is to get the information across without loads of noise.Takehttp://www.altium.com/Try to find the buy button, price button or download the software without giving a DNA samplehttp://gtmetrix.com/analyze.htmlanalysis.kov.com 1.05 secondsaltium.com 7.98 seconds

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 21, 2015, 08:57:48 pm
content: Quote from: Iliya on January 21, 2015, 08:26:30 pmah. you are comparing fishes to nails ...altium is in the league : if you need to ask you can't afford it. so no they don't publish prices.as for downloads : none of that stuff either. you need ot get in touch with em and if they like you they may give you a 30 day trial.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 21, 2015, 09:03:36 pm
content: digikey csv access :http://www.digikey.com/product-search/en?pv17=103&FV=ffec3741%2Cfff40001%2Cfff800e9%2C80003%2Cc0001%2C1c0002%2C2b80016%2C142c040d&k=0805+yageo+1%25&mnonly=0&newproducts=0&ColumnSort=0&page=1&stock=1&quantity=0&ptm=0&fid=0&pageSize=25then look top right above and bottom right below table : download tablethat saves it in csv format.set the number of lines to a large number and you get it all in one shot.

author: Iliya
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 21, 2015, 09:12:05 pm
content: Quote from: free_electron on January 21, 2015, 08:57:48 pmUmm... My wallets 10cm thick and weights in at 2 Killograms, would that help. However, it don't explain CircuitMaker... Is there really such a thing?I went to visit a local 2D CAD company to visit the software development team. Had to first pass through a room with about 30 people busy on the phones. I asked what did they do? Answer: Sales... Very cold sales...It the old days of trade shows, I used to like to go up to stands that had 'great' new stuff, get my wallet out and say, How much and can I take it home now

author: Iliya
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 21, 2015, 09:13:15 pm
content: Quote from: free_electron on January 21, 2015, 09:03:36 pmThanks.

author: DIPLover
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 21, 2015, 09:15:29 pm
content: My only suggestion to Ilya would be :Could you PLEASE drop the stupid "hurry now price will double in 3 days", which is always 3 days from today?That's bullshit. And you seem like such a "no-bullshit" person the rest of the time...

author: Iliya
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 21, 2015, 09:26:18 pm
content: Quote from: DIPLover on January 21, 2015, 09:15:29 pmGood point.It's gone. now its stuck at $49.

author: ludzinc
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 21, 2015, 09:39:24 pm
content: I downloaded a trial of Autotrax back in the day, and then the hurry up and buy emails rolled inI had not managed to install the software, and after the barrage of buy now emails, I have up even trying it.Now that its free, and assuming I won't get hassled by email, I might actually give this a go.Do you do right click copy / paste? Well that alone kicks the snot out of KiCAD!!

author: mswhin63
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 22, 2015, 04:17:14 am
content: Quote from: abaxas on January 21, 2015, 07:28:48 pmYou can always pay for the website. I find the website fine for me, I prefer looking past the garb and simply download the product and try it out, I have Eagle Pro and Autotrax paid edition and I prefer Autotrax hands-down. I also hate the Eagle Website. Confusing nightmare the navigate.Anyway if he paid for a site developer then there would be no true free edition.

author: DIPLover
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 22, 2015, 05:14:15 am
content: Quote from: Iliya on January 21, 2015, 09:26:18 pmYou're awesome!Now I'll give autoTRAX a spin since I'm still on a quest for the perfect (for me at least) schematic editor.

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 22, 2015, 05:21:57 am
content: Quote from: ludzinc on January 21, 2015, 09:39:24 pmUh-huh...

author: pickle9000
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 22, 2015, 05:32:40 am
content: So far looks pretty good. I don't hate the parts editor.

author: TerraHertz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 22, 2015, 10:13:18 am
content: Oh darn. It requires MS .Net framework. Which I try to avoid.Just out of curiosity, what does it use .Net for?Edit: I'd hoped to find this out for myself by trying it, but since I can't install just now, I'll ask.You said "all application data is stored in C:\Users\XXX\AppData\Roaming\AutoTRAX Software\DEX"There's the install files - these can be put anywhere - good.Then there's project files - I'd expect they can be put anywhere too? That's a 'must'.The thing that I was wondering about, is stuff like per-project config files, libraries, GUI user prefs, etc. Where do they get kept? User consignable?Because if "C:\Users\user-ID\..." is the only place AutotraxDEX will put such things, the software is not portable. I've become a great fan of fully portable apps, due to getting tired of reinstalling long lists of stuff every time I change PCs. Not being able to simply clone my entire work environment to different PCs become too tedious to bear, long ago.So, simply put, can AutoTRAX DEX be configured as fully portable? (Aside from the .NET dependency)

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 22, 2015, 10:17:07 am
content: Quote from: TerraHertz on January 22, 2015, 10:13:18 am.. Why?

author: TerraHertz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 22, 2015, 10:34:01 am
content: Quote from: Monkeh on January 22, 2015, 10:17:07 amBecause.

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 22, 2015, 10:45:21 am
content: Quote from: TerraHertz on January 22, 2015, 10:34:01 amI'm sure you'll love Windows 8 then, it's all .Net, DCOM, ActiveX, COM, OLE or whatever it was called before that. Marshalling to the MAX!But at least it's not Corba

author: plazma
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 22, 2015, 10:55:05 am
content: Gotta give this software a try. At the moment I use DXdesigner at work and Eagle at home. I was thinking about buying the Eagle hobby licence.

author: Iliya
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 22, 2015, 12:59:42 pm
content: Quote from: plazma on January 22, 2015, 10:55:05 amDEX will import both the Eagle schematic and the Eagle board files and combine them into one self-contained project file. It will even convert the parts to DEX parts. The files must be version 6.Unlike the Eagle Hobbyist, with AutoTRAX you do not need to fill in any forms and later today, even enter an email address to use it in for non-commercial designs.AutoTRAX doesnothave the 99 schematic sheets, 6 signal layers, 160x100mm routing area limits of Eagle Hobbyist.Eagle Hobbyist is a mere $169 while AutoTRAX is an astonishing $0.00, so if you use AutoTRAX you can give the $169 to the wife/husband.

author: Iliya
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 22, 2015, 01:37:54 pm
content: Quote from: DIPLover on January 22, 2015, 05:14:15 amChanges to downloading AutoTRAX. No need to enter and email address and the installer does not need a password.http:///pcb.software/Download

author: PA0PBZ
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 22, 2015, 01:40:33 pm
content: Quote from: Iliya on January 22, 2015, 01:37:54 pmIt still needs a password...

author: Iliya
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 22, 2015, 01:47:58 pm
content: Quote from: PA0PBZ on January 22, 2015, 01:40:33 pmIt's now fixed.The password wasWASHINGTON

author: PA0PBZ
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 22, 2015, 01:56:57 pm
content: Quote from: Iliya on January 22, 2015, 01:47:58 pmStill asks for password, WASHINGTON works.(And yes, I downloaded again)

author: ElektroQuark
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 22, 2015, 02:00:59 pm
content: Is it normal that DEX asks for a key each time it runs? It looks like it doesn't understand I only want it for non-commercial use. It insists asking.

author: Iliya
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 22, 2015, 02:04:34 pm
content: Quote from: PA0PBZ on January 22, 2015, 01:56:57 pmCleared the server cache. It should be OK now. Checked it and it works.

author: Iliya
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 22, 2015, 02:09:50 pm
content: Quote from: EdoNork on January 22, 2015, 02:00:59 pmJust click Run As Non-Commercial. It serves to remind you not to use it for commercial use. The commercial version (only $49) does not show this.

author: Iliya
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 22, 2015, 02:17:11 pm
content: Quote from: c4757p on January 22, 2015, 05:21:57 amSee the Edit menuCtrl+C to copy. Ctrl+V to paste.Ctri+C also copies viewport image to the clipboard if nothing is selected.

author: Iliya
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 22, 2015, 02:26:49 pm
content: Quote from: TerraHertz on January 22, 2015, 10:13:18 amYour user settings are saved in the Roaming directory, so logging in on different machines in a network uses the same settings.Per project settings are saved in the project.All dialog,panel, per dialog directory, viewport arrangement, viewport views are automatically saved and restored.Dialog position/sizes are auto saved/restored.Dialog selected tabs etc are auto saved/restored.There are 4 quick change workspaces. The auto-remember/restore.

author: Iliya
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 22, 2015, 02:37:20 pm
content: Quote from: mswhin63 on January 22, 2015, 04:17:14 amThe web site is designed for minimum clutter. I use 'above the fold' layouthttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Above_the_foldIt is also a responsive layout and adapts for browser size/aspect ratio. (see it on a mobile device and rotate the tablet/phone) or resize your browser.It also used delayed async loading, e.g. the Features stuff on the home below the fold is loaded after the webpage is first displayed. Same for all the images in the top slider. Uses Javascript.Download buttons easy to see.Simple top menu without dropdowns (they take extra clicks)No fluff - or actors who speak to each other without making a sound[url=http://www.altium.com/]http://www.altium.com/No pages to collect and store your email (for later use) for vapour-ware.

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 22, 2015, 02:54:02 pm
content: I wonder if the way the website displays depends on system, browser, and available fonts. This is what I see, and frankly I think it's quite ugly. Do you test your rendering on different platforms? That's a rather standard task for web developers...I'm mostly okay with the general layout, it just needs to be less chunky. Probably should also have some way to navigate through the very long "home" tab that goes on and on and on about the features.Edit: nope, looks the same on IE 11 on Windows 7.Fonts, dude. They're big and ugly, and make it look cluttered (as a small amount of text takes up a lot of space). Also, spacing in general - in particular, the horizontal nav bar at the top. The vertical alignment needs to be fixed, and the horizontal space between the icons and text needs to be increased.

author: Iliya
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 22, 2015, 03:03:37 pm
content: Quote from: c4757p on January 22, 2015, 02:54:02 pmIt's how it is designed. Personally I don't think it's as 'busy' as say the Altium download page... see below.I'm sorry but there is little I can do. Big does necessarily == ugly. It's perhaps personal preference.You could try this...http://iliyakovac.com/It's something I have been working on.

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 22, 2015, 03:06:44 pm
content: Quote from: Iliya on January 22, 2015, 03:03:37 pmThe Altium page has more information on it, but it's well organized. Also, your example lookswaybetter - I could nitpick that too, but it's asignificantimprovement on the AutoTRAX style. I suggest importing the new look posthasteOkay, one nitpick: Maybe make the gigantic graphic less gigantic, as I don't like having to scroll to see the content. Maybe it's better on a nice modern high-resolution display, but we don't all have those (I'm on 1600x900)

author: Iliya
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 22, 2015, 04:01:58 pm
content: Quote from: c4757p on January 22, 2015, 03:06:44 pmI have reduced the header font size and spacing and moved some buttons.Seehttp:///pcb.software/andhttp:///pcb.software/download

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 22, 2015, 06:55:21 pm
content: Iliya:If nothing else, I think you are to be commended for your generosity to provide your hard work for free, and also to come here and stay here after the direct brutal (almost insulting) criticism that has been dumped on you. I have no need for commercial use of your software right now but your attitude and patience is enough for me to buy the commercial license, even if I don't use it. I do this partially to encourage you to continue with your no BS and hands on approach, and partially to encourage the rest of the world to stop worrying about the almighty dollar and do something for your community

author: aroby
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 22, 2015, 07:24:29 pm
content: Finally got time to get this installed and have an initial play. As an absolute beginner with creating my own PCBs, this software is a joy to use compared to what I tried previously (Eagle). Pretty much everything I've tried to do just works as you would expect. Plus the documentation is excellent - especially the videos linked to directly from the help file.I'm pretty confident I'll now be able to create something vs. spend all my time battling with the software. Thanks Iliya for clueing me into this and making it accessible.Anthony

author: Zucca
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 22, 2015, 07:34:32 pm
content: Quote from: Lightages on January 22, 2015, 06:55:21 pmLightagesyou are now in my buddies list. I rarely found another post on this EEVBlog that was more appropriate.Thanks to people like you andIliyathere is still hope in this world.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 22, 2015, 10:10:21 pm
content: I'm wondering: how is the component management? For example: In Orcad Capture I can pick parts from a database which has the PCB footprint, prices, full part number, order code from Farnell, etc. A click on a button creates a comprehensive bill of materials which can go straight to an assembler.

author: 0xdeadbeef
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 23, 2015, 12:46:16 am
content: My 2centsThe goods:$49 is a great offer and there seems to be a lot of functionality on top of what e.g. DipTrace offers.The UI looks somewhat modern (yet a bit crammed and confusing).The bads:Editing in the schematics is slow and the slightest component shift gives you angled tracks and overlaps.The PCB editor seems to be absolutely terrible compared to DipTrace. Maybe I'm doing it wrong, but simple stuff like drawing a moving a track feels like steering a tanker in a china shop.The whole "top Package" thing looks a bit toyish and I don't fully get the idea of it as it hides the tracks.Panels like the property panel are hidden behind the default view and putting them in a sensible place is an ordeal since dragging/docking/undocking panels is so painfully slow.The free version is actually not so free, as you get a nag screen at each start and "non commercial" watermarks all over the place (gerber, 3D view etc.).Generally, with a bit polishing and a major performance overhaul, this could be a very nice eCAD system for the hobby user. In its current state though, it is more or less unusable for impatient people like me due to the very sluggish reaction to user input.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 23, 2015, 12:55:14 am
content: Quote from: Lightages on January 22, 2015, 06:55:21 pm+1It's one thing to provide sincere feedback, it's another to be rude.This is a very impressive body of work.

author: pickle9000
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 23, 2015, 01:28:40 am
content: Quote from: zapta on January 23, 2015, 12:55:14 amAbsolutely agree on both counts.It's not often you can download a program and just do something. I haven't looked at the manual, no need so far. It's hard to believe that the entire package was done by one person.

author: DerekG
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 23, 2015, 01:33:40 am
content: Quote from: Iliya on January 22, 2015, 03:03:37 pmYes, I like this very much. I can't say I mind the existing layout, however showing AutoTRAX's capabilities of some packed SMD boards is definitely a step up.

author: aroby
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 23, 2015, 01:59:27 am
content: I tried to post to the forum on the AutoTRAX web site, but seems that an invitation code is needed to sign up. Would be handy to have an DEX sub-section on EEVBLOG.Of course, I've run into trouble tonight trying to figure out how to add a part. It's just a SMD inductor with a 1008 package and I couldn't get anything like that to appear via search. I think I figured it out thought, but along the way found some odd behaviors. One being that once a part is on the schematic, there is no (obvious) way to determine what library part it was sourced from. And being able to change the package and footprint from the schematic would be useful - I assumed that that was the purpose of a parametric part.

author: pickle9000
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 23, 2015, 02:21:44 am
content: Quote from: aroby on January 23, 2015, 01:59:27 amHave a look on youtube.https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=autotrax+part

author: pickle9000
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 23, 2015, 02:27:16 am
content: @IliyaDave's WIKI is pretty comprehensive, of particular interest to users on your forum would be pcb manufacturers and assemblers.http://www.eevblog.com/wiki/index.php?title=Main_Page

author: aroby
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 23, 2015, 02:41:11 am
content: Quote from: pickle9000 on January 23, 2015, 02:21:44 amYes, I've been there! Amazing quantity of tutorials. I think I got this figured out, although I'm not quite clear on what "pitch" is referring to when describing a part. The software has some odd behavior when you copy a part which was screwing up the symbol.

author: pickle9000
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 23, 2015, 03:32:10 am
content: Quote from: aroby on January 23, 2015, 02:41:11 amHere is one you may like. My method for making parts is normally to find an existing one and them modify it. In this demo he downloads a 3d image from the manufacturer and uses that. In any case you can see that the part creation is pretty complete.

author: aroby
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 23, 2015, 04:07:52 am
content: @pickle9000 - I'll take a look at that. There are a bunch of small bugs I've encountered. Trying to create a part for a Minicircuits JPS-2-1W, I started with an SOIC part and the pad layout wouldn't update, regardless of the values entered. Closing and reopening solved that. Trying to change the font on a terminal causes the terminal to disappear. I went round in circles for a while trying to get the terminals assigned to pins - not sure where I went wrong there, but finally found a way to do it.

author: DerekG
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 23, 2015, 05:49:08 am
content: Quote from: aroby on January 23, 2015, 02:41:11 amPitch is the distance between the pins (component legs). It is measured from the centre of the first pin to the centre of the 2nd pin.

author: pickle9000
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 23, 2015, 05:53:01 am
content: Quote from: aroby on January 23, 2015, 04:07:52 amI haven't had any issues so far.

author: Iliya
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 23, 2015, 12:42:38 pm
content: Best place for tutorial videos on using AutoTRAX ishttp://kov.com/Videos/PCBsno sales pitches, no side adverts, just tutorials.You can download them fromhttp:///kov.com/Download/Videos

author: elgonzo
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 24, 2015, 10:41:42 pm
content: Quote from: Iliya on January 23, 2015, 12:42:38 pmIliya please revise your tutorial videos. Not only shows one of your videos issues with the autowiring in the schematic editor (i posted details infree_electron's thread reviewing your software, since i noticed he really hit a wall with the crazy autowiring), but you even call other software products "idiotprograms" (as happened in your tutorial video "Schematic wiring made simple" at time 1:29) while your own software has its fair share of egregious issues. That does not shine the best light on you and makes me wanting to not even try your software...Since i can't tell from the screenshots and the videos so far: Is your application truly MDI (i.e., the schematic and PCB editors exist only inside the main application window), or can the schematic editor and/or the PCB editor be undocked, so that i can place different windows on different monitors? This is important, since my workstation has a dual monitor setup where one monitor is landscape and the 2nd monitor is in portrait mode.

author: Iliya
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2015, 09:32:31 am
content: Quote from: elgonzo on January 24, 2015, 10:41:42 pmDEX has tabbed views or MDI views.To float a view onto another screen, in tabbed view, double click on a tab.You can also float all control panels.I use 3 monitors.

author: Iliya
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2015, 09:43:28 am
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on January 25, 2015, 05:59:46 pmYou are using a metric grid.DEX using a 0.1” pitch for alignment of symbol terminals. This keeps schematics easier to design.A 0.1” pitch was chosen for visual appeal when printing.In reality metric or imperial is totally irrelevant. Schematics are abstract representation and not physical. No a value of 1.1 is unit-less.I have changed the wizard. See attached.Can't help you with the mouse.

author: Iliya
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2015, 11:18:47 am
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on February 02, 2015, 10:21:42 amI now understand your problem.I added an option in application settings to increase/decrease zoom when using the mouse wheel. It is in Application->User Interface->Mouse Wheel Scale.See attached.Try entering 1.1> 1 increases zoom in. < 1 decreases it.New version now uploaded. Restart DEX and auto-update.P.S. 57 minutes from your posting to this new version.

author: ludzinc
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 11, 2015, 02:17:29 am
content: Hi Free_electronDo you ever share your scripts? This is something I'd like to get some practice with, and this looks like a good place to start.Thanks.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 12, 2015, 02:48:37 pm
content: yes. one of em is on the google code page for Altium scripts.i need to release some more. i have a schematic driven placer now to cluster parts. works really well to speed up initial placement. ( provided the schematic is drawn clean and not a ratsnest )

author: Iliya
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2015, 06:21:24 pm
content: Over 90 Tutorial Videos on AutoTRAX DEX3D3D PCB Viewing in AutoTRAXSemi-transparent PCBs with AutoTRAXViewing PCBs and Their Internal Structure in AutoTRAXAdding, moving and rotating 3D objects on PCBsActive 3D Preview for AutoTRAX Design Express (DEX)GENERALViewing the AutoTRAX Sample ProjectsLM3914 LED DisplayCreating a simple amplifier using pre-designed circuits100 Watt Amplifier DesignInstalling AutoTRAXSchematic, Simulation, PCB Design and Solid ModelingRunning AutoTRAX for The First TimeUpdating DEXThe AutoTRAX WorkspaceViewportsDocking and Floating PanelsUndo/redo and disaster recoveryThe AutoTRAX DEX Status BarUsing the Color Bar in AutoTRAXArranging Viewports in AutoTRAXThe AutoTRAX DEX Settings PanelHalloween with AutoTRAXThe AutoTRAX File ViewerSwitch from a ribbon to classic menu in DEXGRAPHICSAdding Graphics To Your DrawingsTextNote BoxesPolylinesPolygonsRectanglesEllipsesArcsLinesImages/PicturesDimensionsAdding and editing linesMeasuring Distances in AutoTRAX DEXUsing Guides in DEXNEWManufacturing Your Printed Circuit BoardCreating a Part for a Button BatteryPost Auto-Route OptimizationAdding a Button Battery to the LED Voltage LadderSchematic EditingConvert TPH to SMTLM3914 LED Display3D Modelling in Active3DTrack NeckingReal-Time Design Rule PCB Checking (DRC)STL 3D ExportChanging Track Width When Manual RoutingAdding Holes and Cutouts to a PCBAdding Graphics To Your DrawingsArcsPolylinesPolygonsRectanglesEllipsesLinesTextNote BoxesImages/PicturesDimensionsViewportsDocking and Floating PanelsImporting a PCB from AutoCADCombing Shapes into a PCBPARTSCreating a part with 4 schematic symbols (Split part)Creating a custom potentiometerSplitting Part Symbols on a SchematicParts in DEXCustomizing a parametric footprintCapturing Pin Details from a PDFCreating a Custom SOT223 TransistorCreating a Power Mosfet PartHow to create a PCB pad with a rounded endAdding Thermal ViasCreating round, rectangular and polygonal pads and offsetting pad holes.PCBSConvert TPH to SMT3D Modelling in Active3DTrack NeckingReal-Time Design Rule PCB Checking (DRC)STL 3D ExportChanging Track Width When Manual RoutingAn Insight into PCB AutoLayout with DEXAdding Holes and Cutouts to a PCBImporting a PCB from AutoCADCombing Shapes into a PCBOne Click PCB board design, layout and auto-routingRotating Parts on PCBsSwapping connections for a partQuick AutoroutingPCB Manual Routing3 Manual Routing StylesConnection a SMT pad to an internal copper pourQuick Manual RoutingInteractive PCB Routing with DEXManual Routing with DEX - 2Manually Routing TPH pads and SMT padsManual Routing with Automatic TargetsAdding a Track Jumper in AutoTRAXSwapping Layers with DEXSetting a PCB track width from a schematicTeardrops on pads/via with DEXAuto-routing with DEX and ELECTRACross Cursors in DEXSolder Mask Differences in PCBsTrue-type fonts for PCB productionSCHEMATICSA Simple Resistor LadderAutomatic wiring using DEXAutomatic Wire JumpersWire and Bus junctions in DEXSchematic Wiring Made SimpleHierarchical Top-Down DesignSaving Designs for Re-useReference Designators in DEXSchematic-PCB Cross Selection in DEXRe-positioning symbol names and pin numberMarking terminals as no connection required

author: Iliya
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2015, 08:22:42 pm
content: AutoTRAX version 6 is no longer free.You can download version 5 fromhttp://kov.com/DexDownloads/DEX_NonCommercial.exeThis is the last version that is free for non-commercial use. If you use this and do not wish it to update to version 6 simply click no. You will now be asked again. So keep of copy of this.Version 6 loads up a lot faster than 5 versions and contains over 3000 modifications/improvements to the code base.Unlike other EDA programs, DEX has just one simple to understand price for use. Although it is not free, the ridiculously low price of $49 is extremely good value for what you get and it goes to fund new development.I apologize if this is upsetting, but I do have to eat and fund development.Thanks to all who has contributed valuable feedback and suggestions, yes, even tofree-electron.RegardsIliya Kovac

author: Neganur
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 28, 2015, 09:35:58 pm
content: so all the nice free input you got to improve the software, and now bait and switch./clap

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 28, 2015, 09:47:13 pm
content: I have mixed feelings about this move. I understand the need to make money and survive and so I see no problem with charging for work. It does seem however that the forums has been used to improve your software for free and then change the rules after all the feedback. But......Version 5 is still free. So I don;t see how anyone can complain in reality. If you are not using it professionally then V5 is good enough and free. If you want to do things more professionally then buy V6 for $49.On the other hand I spent the $49 for the professional use version on the back of the generosity of the author in providing the software for free.....I am so confused.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2015, 10:26:51 pm
content: come on guys. it;s only 49$. why are you whining ?

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 28, 2015, 10:57:50 pm
content: I know I didn't whine. I already spent the $49!

author: Neganur
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 28, 2015, 10:59:10 pm
content: How is it whining, I think the comment I made is quite valid. Although I must admit I assumed the software would not start without a license.(ofc I want to try the version 6, why would I want to miss out on all the improvements that the forum has suggested)What's the limitation of the software before I fork out $49? The website and the software itself were not quite clear about it.A quick click on 'generate gerber files' with an empty sheet pops up a 'pardon, must have a license' window. So I guess I can still try out most of the thing.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2015, 02:11:44 am
content: Quote from: free_electron on March 28, 2015, 10:26:51 pmIt reduces its appeal significantly for open source projects.Eagle is still better in this respect.

author: ozwolf
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2015, 02:43:05 am
content: I was happy to pay his $49 USD (+$60 AUS) for version 5, even for my hobbyist (non-commercial) use. It's worth every penny to me.Be fair, how much software can you write for $49?Ozwolf

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2015, 03:17:50 am
content: Quote from: zapta on March 29, 2015, 02:11:44 amthis i don't understand. i can perfectly design open source on multimillion dollar software. If i give you the source to it , with 'no strings' attached, then it is open source.Open source stuff can be perfectly designed using closed source tools.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2015, 03:20:08 am
content: Quote from: free_electron on March 29, 2015, 03:17:50 amBut it's kinda pointless if people can't interpret it.

author: pickle9000
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2015, 03:39:35 am
content: So there is a slightly older version that is free. I've never understood the argument that open source needs to be made with open source. In any case it's done all the time.Having said that Iliya seems to have been very fair. Compare the price to that of getting a single 10cmx10cm board spun. Or the cost of a multimeter or power supply. These are tools we use every day and 50 bucks is a great deal. Even a hobbyist will spend far more than that on gear for the bench, and can use the free version if he or she decides to do so.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2015, 03:40:46 am
content: Quote from: pickle9000 on March 29, 2015, 03:39:35 amThat's not the argument being made. The argument being made is that open source is pointless if the source cannot be utilised.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2015, 04:21:58 am
content: The purists who want to do Open Source with only Open Source tools have a tough road to hoe. Maybe this is possible for those generating software only tools, although even there I suspect that there are frequently proprietary BIOSes in motherboards, hard drives and the like, and definitely the makers of the monitors, keyboards and power supplies consider their work proprietary.If you are working at the hardware/software interface it is just flat impossible. How open source is your Fluke multimeter or your oscilloscope or ...? Even if you are rolling your own instruments you will be using commercial parts that are all covered by some combination of patents and trade secrets.DEX is a tool to make hardware, not a software package which is intended to be included in part of a larger software construct. If you don't want to use a tool fine. If you are too poor or too cheap to afford the tool, that is too bad. But don't fault the tool for your attitude or condition.

author: Neganur
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 29, 2015, 09:56:14 am
content: Quote from: CatalinaWOW on March 29, 2015, 04:21:58 amI would like to make clear that I am NOT too cheap to pay $49. But the move came rather out of the blue after a lot of talk of how DEX is free, hence I said bait and switch.The website nor the software itself declare in what way the software is limited prior to purchasing a license (ver 6), which I would like to have explained since it seems you can save files, but not generate gerbers.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2015, 02:53:57 pm
content: Quote from: free_electron on March 29, 2015, 03:17:50 amYes, it's still open source but with higher burden on mixing and reuse which defeats the purpose.See for example uCurrent's Altium source files, they are not accessible for many of us because of the price tag.Openness is not binary, it's a continuum.I do have an eagle license but I use only the free version for my open source projects.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2015, 03:33:19 pm
content: Quote from: zapta on March 29, 2015, 02:53:57 pmPerhaps but how much effort is it to redraw the schematics and PCB layout for such a simple design?IMHO one of the reasons CERN is so involved in Kicad is that they have the same problem. They want to create open source hardware but currently there is no good open source CAD package which lends itself for the projects they embark on. Perhaps Iliya could try and make CERN pay him to create such a package if DEX is further along than Kicad.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2015, 03:54:18 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on March 29, 2015, 03:40:46 amWhat about the other way around. I design something , using open source tools, but it uses five 1500 ball bga's , requires a 22 layer board ,a waterjet , afive axis cnc and a lasercutter to build it.We don't have to go that extreme. I use some hard to get laserdiode or very fast opamp. Or something some like a broadcomm part that requires an nda and minimum order ... (Raspberry pi anyone ?)These are endless discussions. I gave you machine readable data , a pdf file, the gerbers and the source and compiled binaries to the software. I cant help it if you dont have a screwdriver... Or if you dont like the font in the pdf file.The goal of open source is so you can learn and possibly modify. You have pdf and gerbers. I cant help it of you dont have a soldering iron... Or dont know how to use one

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2015, 04:03:52 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on March 29, 2015, 03:33:19 pmI doubt that they will adopt a Windows only tool. This is another DEX limitation when it comes to the open source.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2015, 04:07:54 pm
content: Quote from: free_electron on March 29, 2015, 03:54:18 pmYour project, you give it for free, you get to set the rules. ;-)

author: Iliya
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2015, 04:54:39 pm
content: Quote from: zapta on March 29, 2015, 04:03:52 pmWhen I first started to write AutoTRAX, I wrote AutoTRAX EDA. EDA was written in C++ and Microsoft MFC and was only available on Windows platforms.I then started to port it so it would work on multiple platforms. I used QT from Trolltech and it worked on Windows, Mac OS and LINUX. However, during development Steve jobs decided to use Intel instead of PowerPC chips. This made my Apple G5 useless as a development environment. At the time Apple seem to be more concerned in selling iPods then developing desktop PCs so I thought there was no future in the Apple platform. For LINUX, the problem was that to me seems that LINUX users want everything for free since LINUX is free. Another reason for doing the port is that I wanted to check that the code was more resilient and would work on multiple platforms.I then started to develop a part manager for AutoTRAX EDA using .Net. I found that the .Net environment was very easy for developing software and the application was fast, although not quite as fast as a native C++ application. It is, however, fast enough for the task in hand.I am developing Active3D which is an application written in C++/11 and QT. It is OpenGL-based and is a viewer/modeller for 3-D. AutoTRAX DEX works with Active3D. You can download Active3D from my website. It is only a 64-bit application at the moment and will not run on 32-bit OS.If anybody at CERN wishes me to develop a version of AutoTRAX using QT then please tell them to drop me an email.

author: Iliya
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2015, 05:19:58 pm
content: The current downloadable version of AutoTRAX DEX is exactly the same as a full version. The only difference is that if it is not enabled by entering the software key which is a text string then it will not output to Gerber and there are a few restrictions on printing and plotting.The software key is machine independent and never expires and will authorise an unlimited number of machines.This software will also expire in seven days if a software key is not entered.This is now done because for me it is quite simple. I only wish to sell one version of the software and that version does everything and nothing is disabled. I feel very uncomfortable in providing a “free” version which really is a Trojan horse. Many of my competitors are doing this but I think it is immoral.See my article: free but not free or “I’m off to Cancun”.http://kov.com/Newsletter/CancunIn 1996 while living in San Diego I was writing 3-D software. I was very much interested in getting my hands dirty doing electronics again and so decided to buy a PCB design suite. I selected MultiSim with UltraBoard and paid $1000 for the privilege. When I was using it I discovered that certain bits were messing so I phoned up the company that sold it to me only to discover that I’d bought the educational copy. I was shocked at having stumped up $1000 to only get the teaching version. So that is why I start to develop AutoTRAX EDA.In ‘98 I returned to England and worked for a 3-D parametric solid modelling company at their research department in Cambridge; the main office was in Boston. I remember that one week selected developers were shipped off to Bermuda to have a think-tank style meeting about development. During that meeting one of the founders of that company discussed his plans for Trojan horses to give to Autodesk users and to get them to convert to the Boston software. His saying was “free, but not free”. So my saying is “beware geeks bearing gifts”.If you buy a car you expect to be able to use all the seats and not to find several seats padlocked with coin meters.

author: Iliya
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2015, 05:40:32 pm
content: Quote from: free_electron on March 28, 2015, 10:26:51 pmThe Third edition ofThe Art of Electronicsis out now at $120 US. That's ~2.5 times as much as DEX. Nobody expects Horowitz and Hill to give it away for non-commercial use.I think it would have been a lot easier to write a book than to write DEX. DEX is over 420,000 lines of code. So at 60 lines per page that is 7000 pages, 5.7 times that in The Art of Electronics and I have not included the DEX manual or videos. I know that the comparison is not quite right but believe you me the compiler is one hell of a picky and demanding proofreader

author: Iliya
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2015, 06:05:45 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on March 29, 2015, 05:54:40 pmSo the $49 is the killer, even though it will license any number of machine for 1 user at a time (trust system). I'm sorry to hear this.P.S. Do you work for free?

author: Iliya
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2015, 06:16:12 pm
content: To thanks all you guys and gals who have given me so much to think about and so much grief, though I have given some back!I am going to give you 10 bucks (US) of the price of $49 and you can have it for a lunacy price of $39.http:///pcb.software/Purchase/eevblogHowever my accountant (the cat!) says it must end at Easter as we are both off to Cancun.So here's you change to get DEX at the steal price of $39.This is the FULL version and includes free upgrades for 12 months and never expires.The software is machine independent, works on any Windows XP or later M/C and never expires.Unlimited pin count, sheets, layers, parts, PCB size - in other words : everything unlimited!Now I'm off to find some food for the cat.

author: Neganur
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 29, 2015, 06:29:23 pm
content: Quote from: Iliya on March 29, 2015, 05:19:58 pmThanks for clarifying7 days is plenty enough for me

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2015, 06:34:31 pm
content: Quote from: Iliya on March 29, 2015, 06:05:45 pmSometimes I get paid and sometimes not. ;-)Your work on DEX is very impressive (chapeau!). If you want to take DEX to the next level, adoption and business wise, I would suggest to hire/partner with somebody that has passion, track record, and understanding of the market. The one man operation model limits the product IMO.That's my 2c.

author: Iliya
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2015, 06:36:02 pm
content: Quote from: Neganur on March 29, 2015, 06:29:23 pmYou can extend it by deleting C:\Users\XXXX\AppData\Local\AutoTRAX Software\DEX\Settings\License.xml whereXXXXis you. This will start the clock running again. But please keep this secret between use, don't let anybody else know!

author: Iliya
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2015, 06:37:12 pm
content: Quote from: zapta on March 29, 2015, 06:34:31 pmThanks for the complement.Sounds like a good idea.Anybody interested? Contact me viahttp://kov.com/Support/Send-Us-An-Email

author: Neganur
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 29, 2015, 06:40:37 pm
content: Quote from: Iliya on March 29, 2015, 05:40:32 pmI paid $60.You cannot compare books to software (imho, you're assuming that people value both the same). Compare it to Eagle or similar instead.Does the cat have a paypal donation address?

author: pickle9000
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2015, 06:41:04 pm
content: You should see if you can get Dave to review. He is notoriously hard on software (first look) but probably worthwhile.Perhaps you could get on the Amp hour.

author: Iliya
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2015, 06:52:31 pm
content: Quote from: Neganur on March 29, 2015, 06:40:37 pmSorry my cat (Poppy) cares nothing for money and so does not have anything to do with paypal. However, chicken breast (preferably raw) is another matter.Here she is destroying my productivity.

author: Iliya
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2015, 07:30:19 pm
content: Quote from: Neganur on March 29, 2015, 06:40:37 pmI know what you mean but what is a book?, certainly not just 400 pages of bound paper. Is a book static? Is the internet one massive book? Software can behave and replace a book, 400 pages of bound paper cannot replace software.P.S. I love books and cannot stand reading a PDF/ePub book on my iPad. The smell, feel etc of a book is like sex for the mindand a bookshopMy favourite book shops are OpAmp is LA (If it's still there) and Foyles in London, especially when it organized books by publisher and author! You could find books there that even Foyles never knew they had! Sadly I use Amazon or it's associates a lot now (makes my accountant cat happy)

author: andyb
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2015, 08:23:50 pm
content: Iliya, I just wanted to say thank you. It's clear that you've put a tremendous amount of effort into this, really appreciate what you're doing!(Don't let the nay-sayers get you down!!)

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2015, 11:17:19 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on March 29, 2015, 09:59:28 pmNot really, you can make money with open source and that's one of the points about open source, you charge for your expertise in the application, not for the application itself, but it's hard to do unless your application needs a lot of consulting for commercial entities that use it.Edit: that said, the open source model might not fit Iliya's plans. $49 (or $39) is not that bad, otherwise stick with gEDA and kicad.

author: Neganur
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 29, 2015, 11:49:11 pm
content: ah help me out for a sec, open source means the source is available as 'free beer' and actually you can't charge for the original source (but charge for bundling it with other software).While 'free software' however gives freedom to ask for money for it too (or not ask money).

author: DerekG
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2015, 01:26:49 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on March 29, 2015, 03:33:19 pmCERN won't pay a cent.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2015, 01:52:55 am
content: Quote from: miguelvp on March 29, 2015, 11:17:19 pmOr eagle or dip trace, subject to size limitations.For open source projects it may be useful to buy license for a project, not for seats. That way I can pay one time license for my project and others can modify the design under the same project license.

author: Neganur
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 30, 2015, 02:02:01 am
content: no one answered my question yet but I think that you cannot ask license fees for the use of open source software.You can sell open source software, but you cannot restrict the use of it nor can you prevent your customers from reselling it.

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2015, 02:11:44 am
content: But this is not open source.Even if it was, open source doesn't restrict the author to have difference licensing options including charging.

author: Neganur
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 30, 2015, 02:31:00 am
content: no that's the point, you can not charge for an open source license. Neither can you restrict how people use open source licensed software. You can charge for all kinds of added services, logos, trademarks, proprietary add-ons, but you can not restrict the use of the software (which is what a license option does in the way you described it.)Quote from: zapta on March 30, 2015, 01:52:55 amUnless you are talking about open source hardware, and use proprietary tools but provide schematic, gerbers etc.

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2015, 03:08:51 am
content: The author can offer different licenses. Others can't.Say I start a project called X, I decide to make it open source for everyone to use and other participate but I'm still the original author.Now company B wants to use it and modify it, but they don't want to disclose their modifications.They can contact me and ask for a commercial license so they are not bound by the open source agreement so they don't have to disclose their custom code.So the gain is that since I'm the project creator, I can use other developers collaborations but that doesn't exclude me from offering a commercial license to other parties, but the rest cannot do that.

author: Neganur
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 30, 2015, 06:27:04 am
content: Quote from: miguelvp on March 30, 2015, 03:08:51 amYour customers can offer exactly the same license as you do!QuoteQuote from: miguelvp on March 30, 2015, 03:08:51 amYou cannot restrict commercial use.QuoteI don't know the parts about proprietary code too well, but iirc you can use proprietary addons with open source software and depending on the open source license even permit proprietary derivative works. So that a company for example can use the open source code in their non-open-source product.http://opensource.org/osd-annotated

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2015, 06:42:55 am
content: You are not getting it, you can release software under many licenses not just one.What you are quoting is the open source one, but you can still issue regular commercial licenses for the same code without the restrictions of the open source one.But only if you are the author of such work, not the derived ones, those that choose to use the open source license the are bonded to that agreement.For example:http://camaya.net/gloox/licensing/But we are getting off topic since AutoTRAX is not even open source

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2015, 11:09:28 am
content: Quote from: Neganur on March 30, 2015, 02:02:01 amYes you can. As the copyright owner you can dictate whatever you want. There are many dual-license open source software packages which are free for non-commercial use and paid for commercial use. See MySQL and Qt (in the past?).

author: Neganur
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 30, 2015, 03:24:34 pm
content: Although I readily admit I am not an expert in this field, I think there is a confusion here between free software and open source software.Quote from: mojo-chan on March 30, 2015, 08:07:51 amOpen source is about the source being open, available. Free software is about freedom. Open source software is not necessarily as free as free software. You can also choose to make money and sell open source software.As soon as you have released a software with the open software source license you are not in control of it any more. You can still sell the copyright of it but you cannot restrict it in the ways being described in earlier posts.The copyright holder can indeed do whatever he wants and release his code with a different (not open source) license, he can however not retract any licensed code already published.Quote from: nctnico on March 30, 2015, 11:09:28 amIf you have licensed open source software you can not go ahead and prohibit commercial use. It must have been a different license than open source software. From what I can see, the part you are paying for is the proprietary application that the MySQL is embedded in or bundled with in the case that a company does not want to be subject to the GPL license that MySQL is licensed under. From my understanding in this case Oracle is selling a copyright (and it seems they call it 'license').For the majority of what was said I think we're in violent agreement :p I'm just being a bit nit picky about some things I believe are not in the right context (and am happy to be proven wrong of course!)

author: tdys
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: March 30, 2015, 03:37:33 pm
content: software guy here. Open source just means the source is available. What you can do with it depends on the licence. Not all open source is GPL or BSD. QT used to have a lot of comercial restrictions (ie. you had to pay a lot to create comercial software).

author: Neganur
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 30, 2015, 04:15:09 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on March 30, 2015, 03:41:14 pmhmm ok, that's in conflict with what the open source initiative (OSI) is defining as open source in the very first paragraph:sourceand theirFAQQuoteAlthough military use is probably not a commercial use.So I guess what the OSI defines as open source software is just another license among other similar licenses, and all they really are doing is to "ensure that licenses and software labelled as "open source" conforms to existing community norms and expectations" ?

author: Neganur
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 30, 2015, 04:24:48 pm
content: Actually, I think I know where I went wrong: I assumed that the OSI are the only ones defining open source software. They clearly are not.what a pain in the arse

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2015, 04:27:05 pm
content: This issue of open source came up in this thread in the context of is DEX a good fit for open source projects? Not wether DEX should be open source itself.

author: Neganur
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 30, 2015, 04:45:48 pm
content: I don't think that was what miguelvp and mojo-chan were talking about. Unless I'm mistaken they clearly spoke about software.

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2015, 04:58:37 pm
content: Quote from: Neganur on March 30, 2015, 04:45:48 pmI was just responding to your question, even if I stated that:QuoteNot sure why we are still talking about open source or whatever, it's Iliya's decision since it isHissoftware.

author: Neganur
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 30, 2015, 05:28:02 pm
content: I was talking about open source software since it was mentioned here by several people in the context of DEX, open hardware projects and competing software and whether or not an open source model for hardware requires the release of the project files in an open model too (or if pdf files + gerbers is enough).Sorry if it bored you. I received some good answers though, so thanks!

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2015, 05:38:38 pm
content: It didn't bore me nor bother me, but it's derailing the topic.

author: Iliya
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2015, 08:38:30 pm
content: It is very unlikely that AutoTRAX will be open source, I would be worried about source code being screwed up and software development not be as fast as it is now.If it was, it would be similar to what you see in QT, in non-commercial and the commercial version.To build AutoTRAX you would need a developer license for DevExpress , Winforms. $899 US and of course Visual Studio 2013.https://www.devexpress.com/Products/NET/Controls/WinForms/

author: timb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2015, 09:32:39 pm
content: Frankly, I think you should give any forum user that paid for V5 a free upgrade to V6, due to all the help and feedback you've gotten from us.Personally, I'm against expiring licenses. I think generally once you pay for a program that should be it; free upgrades forever. Otherwise you end up like Altium or Microsoft, milking their existing customer base year after year with little to show for it.Offering a lifetime license means you have to work at attracting new customers.That said, being a one man shop with a single commercial product, I can see your point of view. You do need to eat! (Though DipTrace is a lifetime license and they have a group of coders working full time, so...)Sent from my Smartphone

author: John Coloccia
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2015, 09:56:53 pm
content: Quote from: timb on March 30, 2015, 09:32:39 pmThe DipTrace license entitles you to upgrades within a major release....2.0...2.1, etc. When they do the next major release, it is 25% of the purchase price. Anyhow, they're off in space working on differential pairs, and all the stuff we really want fixed is languishing. It's a nice program, but they really need to start fixing some of the core problems instead of concentrating on stuff like differential pairs.I think the hard feelings here are due to the super quick abandonment of 5.0, but he did fix stuff in 5.0 for a couple of months anyway. It's still free and available for non-commercial use, and there was stuff that was fixed, and it's functional, so it's hard to imagine anyone really being too upset. Still, no free, functional version means a lot of people won't even consider it, even for $50. Adobe's software is best in class, and I STILL mucked around with that for 3 weeks doing real work before deciding to dump Corel and switch.

author: DerekG
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2015, 11:54:54 pm
content: Quote from: timb on March 30, 2015, 09:32:39 pmI think your existing AutoTrax Dex 2020 licence entitles you to any bug fixes & upgrades for a 12 month period.So you should be able to download Version 6 & run it without any restrictions.Let us know how you go.

author: ozwolf
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2015, 12:43:38 am
content: Quote from: timb on March 30, 2015, 09:32:39 pmAs a paid subscriber, I had no difficulty with upgrading to version 6. It all happened automatically.Ozwolf

author: timb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2015, 08:27:49 am
content: Well then, I was wrong on that front. I based it on someone posting about a "bait and switch" after they just purchased a license. Add to that the discount being given to forum members, I assumed 6 was a paid mandatory upgrade. And yes, I know what they say about assuming.I still don't like the general idea of paid upgrades, mainly because I've been burnt by companies like Adobe. Releasing a new major version every 6 to 12 months that costs $500 to $1000 for an upgrade is fucking diabolical. In this case, however, it is *only* $50. So, even once a year that's not bad, so long as there are major features to warrant it. So yeah, I retract the whole post.Though, might I suggest you offer previous registered users of *any* version a small discount? Even the $10 off forum price would be alright. This is psychological tactic that makes users feel rewarded for being loyal to the software. They don't have to pay the same price as *new* users, they're in a special club.Sent from my Tablet

author: John Coloccia
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2015, 09:45:19 am
content: Quote from: timb on March 31, 2015, 08:27:49 amYou should see what Matlab does. If you let the maintenance run out, and want to ever start up again, you need to pay all of the years in between.I like Adobe's new subscription model. For $49 a month, you get everything...EVERYTHING. Photoshop, Illustrator, Dreamweaver, Flash, etc...everything they make, you get. You can pay a little more and do a monthly subscription, or if you just need one program, it's $19 a month. I think under the old model, this used to cost $2600. So my stuff stays up to date with the latest and greatest, always. If I don't make money, I drop the subscription. If I want to, I can reactivate the subscription at any time for just one month...$70, I think. Basically, I get to pay them when I'm actively using the products and make money, and when I don't, I can dump them until I need them again. As a business, I find this very attractive.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2015, 12:46:31 pm
content: Quote from: timb on March 31, 2015, 08:27:49 amI always ask myself the question: do I really need the latest version? Software companies always pretend you'll die a slow and painfull death if you don't use the latest version but in reality the current version should do it's job just fine; otherwise you would not have bought it.@John Coloccia: What you describe makes a lot of sense to me. It makes software affordable and creates a constant revenue for the software firms. I'd call that a win-win.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2015, 04:28:57 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on March 31, 2015, 12:46:31 pm+1 to that. I tend to stick with a working release before considering updates, especially if I am in the middle of a project. Obviously that I usually explore an updated release after a project ends, which may or may not convince me to do that.Quote from: timb on March 31, 2015, 08:27:49 amWith the advent of internet, SW became an even tougher business... Paying for updates is one of the ways companies can keep investing in innovations and a roadmap of products - obviously that several models exist, and the subscription model mentioned by John Coloccia seems a bit more fair. But, no matter how you look the revenue stream must come from somewhere.

author: John Coloccia
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2015, 05:30:27 pm
content: Everyone seems to forget how software USED to work. You'd go to the store, you'd buy the software, and that was that...NO upgrades...ever. If you wanted the new version, you went to the store and bought the new version. Then the internet came, and companies started making bug fixes and things like this available online. Turbo Tax may have been the first to really take advantage of this, allow you to update your software for the latest tax laws/forms.And now, everyone wants to pay $50 for a piece of software and have the guy that wrote it work for free for the rest of his life. LOL. I understand the "open source" movement, but as a professional, I would never release anything as open source unless I was really just releasing it as a service to the community (which I've done from time to time). There's no reason in the world why an engineer should have to work the rest of his life for free just because he sold a piece of software. You don't get your car repaired and upgraded for free, do you? You don't get free TVs when Samsung comes out with a new version. But because it's software, apparently it should be free for everyone, and for all time, and in addition if you have the nerve to ever give away a free version, you have to keep giving it away and supporting it forever.Honestly, I think the open source/free software/whatever movement is a pile of horse crap, and the generally awful software that results is what you get when your software doesn't have to compete with actual good products. There are some notable exception, but only after real money got involved and supported it.That's why I really like the subscription model. No one else does engineering for free. It's completely ridiculous to expect software engineers to work for free. Your products would be significantly better if people were willing to pay a few bucks for them and allow the engineer to concentrate on it, as opposed to expecting it all for free and you basically get whatever can be fiddled with in someone's free time.

author: pickle9000
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2015, 06:18:25 pm
content: In the end it all comes down to money and time. In reality they are the same. How fast can you learn the package, time saving features, actual cost. How much money you can put in your pocket. At least for a small business / contractor.Staying with a package because you know it well and can get the job done fast is a valid argument.Autotrax is an OK package, it's still developing so that's a plus. I wouldn't do a massive project on it but I don't really do those anyway. It's an amazing price, minimal learning curve good support.The down side and upside is that it's a one man show. The upside is that features are added quickly and the seem to be very robust in implementation (excellent programmer). The negative is that if the designer is down for any reason what happens to the software?

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2015, 06:31:00 pm
content: Quote from: pickle9000 on March 31, 2015, 06:18:25 pmAs I wrote above: if the software works then why do you need upgrades? It is a different story with software which stops to work after some time.Last year I was looking for a VHDL plugin for Eclipse. The company who created a commercial plugin only provides time limited node locked licenses. It is just a tiny company so if they go belly up the time I spend into learning how to work with their software would go up in smoke OR I can no longer use the software if I change my PC.

author: Iliya
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2015, 07:02:07 pm
content: Quote from: pickle9000 on March 31, 2015, 06:18:25 pmYou will probably right about the one-man band. Perhaps I should work at getting partners involved, however that inevitably would lead to an increase in price as the overhead would increase dramatically. More people needing to eat!

author: pickle9000
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2015, 07:11:02 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on March 31, 2015, 06:31:00 pmNo arguments here, I use xp on the bench to keep an old logic analyzer in use. I don't buy time licensed software unless forced to. Having said that, the preference is to have the software under development. New features save time and that's money.

author: pickle9000
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2015, 07:18:41 pm
content: Quote from: Iliya on March 31, 2015, 07:02:07 pmAll you really need is a plan. A statement that if for whatever reason you are unable to continue with developing the software here is what will happen. What that will be I don't know, will it change over time? Probably, but letting users know that you have a procedure in place is probably helpful.

author: LabSpokane
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2015, 07:59:45 pm
content: Quote from: John Coloccia on March 31, 2015, 05:30:27 pmExactly. I am all too happy to kick a modest fee into the hat on an periodic basis for good software and ongoing development. The well-implemented subscription models work for me - particularly for things like CAD - where I'm doing a ton of it or none of it. If someone really nails the intro PCB CAD market, $50/year or whatever is really cheap.What I would suggest is monetizing the libraries as well. That's the work I would happily pay for if I knew the component libraries would be reliable and updated. Maybe provide a basic library as part of the package, then a "deluxe" parts library on a subscription basis.Do good work and don't be too afraid to charge for it.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2015, 08:07:01 pm
content: I would be very hesitant to pay money for libraries. Even more hesitant to pay money for untested ones.

author: Iliya
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2015, 08:32:39 pm
content: Quote from: LabSpokane on March 31, 2015, 07:59:45 pmAutoTRAX is $49 for the first year and $29 for each additional year. You keep the software, it does not run out.Of course you can get AutoTRAX for $39 until this Easter weekend, 5th. May, 2015http://kov.com/Purchase/EEVblog

author: John Coloccia
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2015, 08:39:07 pm
content: I'd give it a try, but I'm knee deep in DipTrace. Like I said before, I'm always trying new software out, and if it's good and I use it, I pay for it. If there was a free version of the latest, or a time locked trial version or something like that, that let me get through a project from beginning to end and exercise all the features, I'd certainly try it.

author: LabSpokane
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2015, 08:47:52 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on March 31, 2015, 08:07:01 pmBuild a crappy library and everyone drops their subscription. Do a great job and you have a nice revenue stream between releases. Just because it's been an afterthought for so long doesn't mean there isn't room to do the job well and differentiate oneself.

author: timb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2015, 08:51:54 pm
content: Quote from: John Coloccia on March 31, 2015, 05:30:27 pmI don't think you realize just how many Open Source libraries are behind modern software.Pop open the "About" dialog if some of your commercial software and look for references to the OS libraries it uses. The majority of those authors make zero dollars for their work.This is especially relevant with iOS, Android and OS X software, but has been increasingly common on Windows.Hell, you wouldn't have stable internet access on Windows if it weren't for OS. (Microsoft replaced the godawful TCP/IP stack they used up until Windows ME with the stack from FreeBSD in Windows 2000.)Completely free libraries make it possible for commercial developers to churn out advanced paid software. Period. End of story.And like I said, I don't mind paying for upgrades, so long as there are features worth paying for.What I hate is paying for upgrades that fix major bugs which should have been fixed in the old version.Adobe, Microsoft, Altium et al have been hugely guilty of this in the past and it's made me gunshy.Sent from my Smartphone

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2015, 11:39:09 pm
content: Some of those Open Source projects are developed by professionals while working at big companies while on payroll, so I wouldn't say they made zero dollars.But granted there will be some contributors that just do it for the passion of working on that piece of code.I guess depending on the library in question and how useful is for the commercial entities the contribution of full time programmers will be higher.But that doesn't contradict what John Coloccia stated.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2015, 03:33:00 am
content: Quote from: LabSpokane on March 31, 2015, 08:47:52 pmPerhaps.But I cannot see tested, standards compliant libraries being made by Iliya. He has not the time (one man band), experience (he's not an electronics engineer. He cannot produce and test boards at this time), or funds (standards, PCBs, and components are expensive. So are the tools to go with them.).

author: pickle9000
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2015, 03:43:59 am
content: Quote from: Monkeh on April 01, 2015, 03:33:00 amThat would be a massive undertaking.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2015, 03:45:05 am
content: Quote from: pickle9000 on April 01, 2015, 03:43:59 amPrecisely. But unless that's undertaken and done properly, anything you buy you have to double check is right before it wastes your time. In other words, you may as well just do it yourself..

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2015, 08:22:51 am
content: In agree. Libraries which come with CAD packages are usually crap. The CAD package I'm using has quite an extensive library but I have used only a few footprints as they came with the package as they where. There rest got modified or created. Actually I have to create new footprints for every project I do. IMHO it is much more important that creating new footprints and symbols is easy (and being able to re-use them for other components). Note the differentiation between symbol, footprint and component here; they are three different things!

author: John Coloccia
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2015, 09:50:12 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on April 01, 2015, 08:22:51 amI agree with this 100%. I don't even bother looking in the library anymore unless it's some massively complicated part...because I have to sit there, and double check everything anyway. It's just easier for me to make the component myself, and fortunately, making components in my package is dead simple. If there was NO library, but component creation where very refined and simple, that would be perfectly OK with me.

author: DerekG
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2015, 01:52:26 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on April 01, 2015, 08:22:51 amNot so with Altium. You pay heaps for it, but the libraries are very extensive & I have not found an error in a component during the past 10 years.

author: Iliya
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2015, 07:02:56 pm
content: I have changed the AutoTRAX website tohttp://PCB.SoftwareNo .com extension needed.P.S. Don't forget the $3539 EEVblog only special end this Easter Sunday.http://pcb.software/Purchase/EEVBlog

author: PA0PBZ
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2015, 08:17:24 pm
content: Quote from: Iliya on April 04, 2015, 07:02:56 pmIt's $39, not $35.After installing it told me "Oh no, Demo period has expired" right away.So I had to buy it

author: DerekG
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2015, 09:23:03 pm
content: Quote from: PA0PBZ on April 04, 2015, 08:17:24 pmYes, Autotrax is aware that you had previously installed it on your computer.

author: Iliya
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2015, 11:35:01 pm
content: Quote from: PA0PBZ on April 04, 2015, 08:17:24 pmMy mistake. Can't tell who you are from your EEVblog ID so if you email me I'll gladly give you back double the $4 difference: $8.

author: VK3DRB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 05, 2015, 05:47:42 am
content: I thought Autotrax was the old DOS based Protel ancestor from the early 1990's, so I ignored this post for a while until I saw the number of hits. I use Altium at work which is really expensive - to dear for home use. I am surprised to see this Autotrax is not the same Autotrax from Protel. It appears to be fairly feature rich, so I will try it.

author: PA0PBZ
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 05, 2015, 11:03:45 am
content: Quote from: Iliya on April 04, 2015, 11:35:01 pmThanks Iliya but I will survive

author: Iliya
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 05, 2015, 12:48:10 pm
content: Quote from: PA0PBZ on April 05, 2015, 11:03:45 amThanks to you!I have changed the latest version toreset the trial period. So it will start again. It lasts for 14 days. I'm not sure what a good period is. Any ideas?You can download the latest fromhttp://kov.com

author: mswhin63
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 05, 2015, 02:20:24 pm
content: 30 Days seems to be a common time-frame for evaluation.Malcolm

author: DerekG
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 05, 2015, 03:35:49 pm
content: Quote from: Iliya on April 05, 2015, 12:48:10 pm30 days is good. Last year I downloaded an earlier version, then got called upon to travel for work. By the time I actually sat down to spend some time with AutoTrax DEX, my trial period was up.Another thought would be to allow the software to continue to operate (after 14 or 30 days), but without the ability to produce any manufacturing outputs.People can then fiddle to their hearts content without any loss of revenue to you.

author: Iliya
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 05, 2015, 07:13:58 pm
content: I have restored the non-commercial license. So, if you have not purchased the software it will start up in non-commercial mode.You can convert to the commercial use this Easter weekend for the $39.Educational VersionI'm thinking of releasing a special version for education that doesn't even have the non-commercial notice on it. This will allow teachers to give all the students a full version of the software. I am wondering how to get back to work!

author: VK3DRB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2015, 01:03:08 am
content: On the website, there are photos of people. I could be wrong, but I suspect the photos are fake. I have never seen female PCB designers looking like those in the photos. Besides, they all look so well dressed. If they all work for Autotrax, you'd have socially awkward misfit engineers with buck teeth queuing up to work at Autotrax for free.The girl on the left...http://www.pcb.software/SupportSeriously though, the website is very well laid out and clear. Compared to Altium's website, Autotrax's is down-to-earth, concise and informative. Well done.

author: ElektroQuark
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 06, 2015, 09:07:33 am
content: I think they are stock photos.DEX is a one-man-band.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2015, 12:27:47 pm
content: Quote from: EdoNork on April 06, 2015, 09:07:33 amOfcourse they are! Those people are obviously photo models. For example: search for 'happy people' onhttp://www.shutterstock.com

author: timb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2015, 10:15:01 am
content: Quote from: VK3DRB on April 06, 2015, 01:03:08 amStarting with the girl on the left and going counterclockwise, I see: Denise Richards, Jason Statham, Richard Hammond and that Hispanic chick from The Fast and the Furious movies (I forget her name, but she plays the same character in everything, the hard ass Latina girl who's going to show the world).Sent from my Tablet

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2015, 03:27:47 pm
content: I still don't think those pictures are from the people Timb mentioned. They may (IMHO vaguely) look like them... If they where Iliya is likely to have a portrait rights claim in the near future.

author: timb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2015, 11:17:40 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on April 08, 2015, 03:27:47 pmThat's the joke, you see.Sent from my Tablet

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2015, 11:29:51 am
content: Nobody is laughing

author: BytesGuy
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 31, 2015, 12:33:23 pm
content: Quote from: Iliya on January 20, 2015, 07:37:15 pmIs this still available for non-profit use? I can't see where to get it on the site (only trial)

author: ozwolf
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 31, 2015, 01:40:43 pm
content: Quote from: BytesGuy on July 31, 2015, 12:33:23 pmTry herehttp://www.pcb.software/.Ozwolf

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 31, 2015, 01:52:18 pm
content: At the end of this thread a discounted price for EEVblog members is offered.https://www.eevblog.com/forum/eda/dex-eval-by-free_electron/

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 01, 2015, 02:42:17 am
content: Interstingly, I can't find what the limitations are on the free version just by looking at the website. Am I missing something?

author: 0xdeadbeef
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2015, 08:48:50 am
content: Last time I cared V5 was "unlimited" for private use but with giant watermarks in the created gerbers. Not actually unlimited by my standards. V6 is just a time limited demo.V5 asks you to update to V6, so you have to decline the update.IMHO there never was an unlimited version and having a crappy watermark in your gerbers is actually a much worse limitation than the pin or size restrictions of other free offers.Anyway, honestly, even without this crap about tricking people into an "unlimited version", I couldn't find much sympathy for the tool. It's slow, it cramped with (partly nonsense) features but the basics don't work as expected. It's slow, it's a drag to use, apparently there are issues with the created gerbers.Don't get me wrong: the price is very low compared to other offers and I would have happily paid it if I felt I could get used to it and trusted in its reliability. Actually I paid quite a bit more for my non-commercial license of DipTrace.

author: BytesGuy
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2015, 07:52:42 pm
content: Oh interesting, I didn't know about the watermarks on the gerbers!I think autotrax could be good, but when I used it there were some rough edges.Out of all the cad packages out there I have used diptrace the most. What made me look at alternatives was hitting the pin limit, luckily you can get an extra 200 if it's non-profit use so I work around it by having multiple schematics and boards. Autotrax is the only package I have found that is reasonably priced for a hobbyist who needs big boards - although I have just found the free designspark, no idea how good it is.I have mixed feelings on autotrax, so sometime I will give it a proper go with a small project and see how it compares to diptrace.

author: Iliya
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2015, 11:09:49 pm
content: Quote from: BytesGuy on August 01, 2015, 07:52:42 pmThere never was watermarks on Gerber files.

author: 0xdeadbeef
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 04, 2015, 11:29:11 pm
content: Hm???

author: ez24
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2015, 12:39:00 am
content: Another suggestion to IliyaI just found this posting and started at the beginning. After a few pages it gets confusing on what is going on since this started last Jan and at the same time looking at your web site.Can you edit your messages when major changes are made like: price (started at $49 now $99, I think - I am confused), emails no emails, emails, passwords no passwords passwords, free or not free?It would help me to try and figure out what is going on and maybe others. If you do this also include the date that you make your "edit"Thanks

author: Iliya
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2015, 09:42:01 am
content: Quote from: 0xdeadbeef on August 04, 2015, 11:29:11 pmThat is not a watermark, it's a text usage notice. Watermarks are semitransparent graphics.This text was on the PCB and ALL output, not just Gerber. So it was not a 'surprise' addition to Gerber output.Anyway, DEX does not have the notice anymore.

author: Iliya
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2015, 09:47:12 am
content: Quote from: ez24 on August 05, 2015, 12:39:00 amAutoTRAX DEX is no longer free.See postings about removing the 'Not for Commercial Use' notice in Gerber files. (Hacking Gerber so as not to pay for the software).I had hoped people could be trusted but sadly some are not.Anyway you can get DEX for only $39http://kov.com/purchase/eevblog- near as damn it free; I do need to eat

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2015, 10:07:40 am
content: Quote from: Iliya on August 05, 2015, 09:42:01 amStill playing the semantics game I see.

author: Iliya
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2015, 11:34:21 am
content: Quote from: Monkeh on August 05, 2015, 10:07:40 amIt's not about playing games, it's about using the English language. Using the correct words avoid misunderstanding, I'm sure you would agree.A watermark is an identifying image or pattern in paper that appears as various shades of lightness/darkness when viewed by transmitted light (or when viewed by reflected light, atop a dark background), caused by thickness or density variations in the paper. Watermarks have been used on postage stamps, currency, and other government documents to discourage counterfeiting. There are two main ways of producing watermarks in paper; the dandy roll process, and the more complex cylinder mould process.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WatermarkGerber CANNOT produce semi-transparent artwork.

author: LordNobady
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2015, 11:50:15 am
content: about 4 lines farther on the wiki page:Quote

author: Iliya
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2015, 12:21:05 pm
content: Quote from: LordNobady on August 05, 2015, 11:50:15 amIt is not an identifier and there is no hidden encoding going on.However, the watermark point is moot as there is no 'Not for Commercial Use' marker/watermark/notice/warning sign etc. in DEX!AutoTRAX DEX now no longer has a free non-commercial use or free anything.Non-commercial software is not always free. See EdWinNEThttp://www.visionics.a.se/EDWinNET1.0-Non-Commercial.aspxwhere the non-commercial use starts at a mere $440rising to $840.This is in sharp contrast to the $39for AutoTRAXCOMMERCIALversion. Seehttp://kov.com

author: 0xdeadbeef
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2015, 03:58:35 pm
content: Interesting to see how you ignore your own misuse of terms like "free" and "unlimited" and try to invalidate arguments with hair-splitting mainly based on your own wrong definitions of widely used terms. Honestly, your whole attitude and behavior here and elsewhere would be sufficient to drive me away from Dex/AutoTrax or whatever the thing is called for the next few weeks.

author: ez24
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2015, 05:32:48 pm
content: QuotetrueQuoteIt is past " Easter weekend, 5th. May, 2015"Reading some other threads here, it seems you have a hard time with deadline dates. I suggest try and stay away from deadlines if you cannot make the changes on your website when the deadline ends. It looks bad to see that you do not keep your site updated.Another suggestion that might go against the rules. Since this is a long post and old and confusing, stop responding to this post. Then in a month start a new subject post with what you want to say and promote your program. By then maybe this post will die away.Keep up the good work.

author: Iliya
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2015, 10:14:54 am
content: Quote from: ez24 on August 05, 2015, 05:32:48 pmThanks for pointing out the Easter deadline. I have now fixed it.I was responding to the Watermark posting.

author: Iliya
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2015, 10:35:10 am
content: Quote from: 0xdeadbeef on August 05, 2015, 03:58:35 pmPlease read the following very carefully.AutoTRAX DEX (DEX or AutoTRAX for short) wasfree and unlimited for non-commercial use.There is no hair-splitting there.AutoTRAX DEX is now no longer free and unlimited for non-commercial use. Period.There is no free or non-commercial use version.There is now only one version of AutoTRAX DEX.Please readFree but not free or “I’m off to Cancun”

author: Iliya
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2015, 12:52:38 pm
content: Quote from: wilfred on August 06, 2015, 11:41:52 amHi WilfredYou can use it for non-commercial use.But it's not free.There are loads of 'free' software available. Try Circuit Maker, I'm sure that will help. Great thing it saves your work on Altium Servers. Now that can't be badAnd what's even better, if you do decide to do commercial boards, them Altium will provide you with a quick and easy upgrade path. What's not to like.

author: Wilksey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2015, 09:58:48 pm
content: It is very refreshing for a developer of a different "CAD" program to promote another and directing users to the industry standard package is very decent of you!I think I can go one further with your holiday plans, download KiCAD, or Circuit Maker, after all, CM has Cloud storage which is much better as you have pointed out, to store your files on, save 39 bucks, hit Cancun and use the mini bar whilst you are there, it's a win win situation, and you, sir, are the one we should thank for these wonderful suggestions!

author: Iliya
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2015, 01:04:40 pm
content: Quote from: Wilksey on August 06, 2015, 09:58:48 pmGlad to be of help. Didn’t know Circuit Maker is the industry standard package. Good to know.Quote from: Wilksey on August 06, 2015, 09:58:48 pmIt appears that you did not understand the Cancun articleI strongly suggest you read it again and maybe it will sink in. Think Trojans and Greeks bearing gifts.I notice a lot of people on this forum do not agree with you about the Cloud storage in CM.However, I agree with you that it’s absolutely marvellous especially for Altium.Where better to store your work for safe keeping?Some would say KiCAD is a good idea, at least it doesn’t come with a belly full of soldiers.P.S.Just thought; perhaps Altium could move to Cancun for it's next relocation. At least your work would be safer there than on a server in China. Actually, where is Altium this week?

author: mswhin63
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2015, 01:59:49 pm
content: Quote from: Iliya on August 07, 2015, 01:04:40 pmThis part is definitely concerning. It is an obvious move to a country to spend less and maximise profits.Though Australia is definitely a suck hole place for electronic companies unless you spend massive bucks and people are willing to spend massive bucks for a product.

author: Wilksey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2015, 04:17:16 pm
content: No no no my dear friend, Altium Designer is the industry standard not Circuit Maker, silly!KiCAD certainly appears to be the most actively developed out of the free and non free packages, and no, no soldiers hiding in it's belly as you say!

author: Iliya
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2015, 05:05:05 pm
content: Quote from: Wilksey on August 07, 2015, 04:17:16 pmI’m so glad you cleared that up.I’ll send an email to Mentor Graphics and Cadence notifying them of your findings so they can file for Chapter 11.Just sold the house and bought Altium shares. I’m going to be so rich.Now I’m definitely going to Cancun'will ride on the back of my trusty Trojan steed - a.k.a. CM'.Heh, I’ll pop into their new offices when they move there.

author: Wilksey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2015, 05:28:19 pm
content: Ah rest assured, just because you are not the industry standard, you do not need to file for bankruptcy, there are still fools that will buy the inferior, bug ridden with no support software, regret it later, but then it's too late, short and curly syndrome.I am not a stockbroker, so I will have to take your word over the shares initiative.I'm sure you can find somewhere more luxurious to go, perhaps go on a cruise, see the world!Might want to give them a bit of breathing space to settle in, perhaps, now, this is not a guarantee, but they might even offer you a job if you talk to them nicely, and mention you just bought a few shares of theirs also, get Dave to put in a good word and you're gold!

author: 0xdeadbeef
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2015, 05:42:16 pm
content: @IliyaHonestly, instead of repeating the same babble about Cancun, Trojan Horses and how free/unlimited one (watermark crippled) version of your software was (for a few weeks) over and over again, you should really think about what kind of impression this makes on potential customers. Maybe you should think about hiring someone to do your public relations and focus on development instead.Just try to convince people with a faster, more stable & professional and overall better software instead of arguing with people in forums. This thread will most probably end like your last attempts to persuade people that they are stupid not to use your tool: you'll get furious, delete your posts and/or your account and this whole thing starts again in a few weeks/months with a new version number or name.

author: Iliya
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2015, 05:50:30 pm
content: Quote from: 0xdeadbeef on August 07, 2015, 05:42:16 pmI'm only replying to comments posted in order to correct them. Look back at them. Is this a crime?Some of them are in response to your erroneous postings.You don't have to read them or perhaps you do...

author: 0xdeadbeef
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2015, 06:07:55 pm
content: Quote from: Iliya on August 07, 2015, 05:50:30 pmIt's not a crime to be stubborn and self-opinionated, but it certainly won't help you sell your tool. And you're surely aware that most of the things you "correct" are perfectly valid - it's just that you don't like the uttered opinions or facts.Quote from: Iliya on August 07, 2015, 05:50:30 pmI actually don't care so much about you or your tool. It's just a bit concerning to watch someone ruining his own efforts due to lack of self-perception and his insistence on being right.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2015, 06:21:58 pm
content: Quote from: 0xdeadbeef on August 07, 2015, 06:07:55 pmI agree. It's poor salesmenship not to understand the (potential) customer is king and therefore always right.

author: Iliya
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2015, 06:26:09 pm
content: Quote from: 0xdeadbeef on August 07, 2015, 06:07:55 pmWell that’s not a surprise. I think you have made your position clear.P.S. I detest Trojan Horse software. It’s dishonest.I worked for the leading solid modeling software company in Cambridge, England. They sent all the top developers to Bermuda for a week to have bonding/think tank sessions. I loved it except for the large part of the time spend on how to develop Trojan Horses to trap users like you into using their software. Not happy about that.Perhaps you are...

author: Wilksey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2015, 08:52:23 pm
content: This is why you should use open source as much as possible!

author: Iliya
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2015, 11:38:36 pm
content: Quote from: wilfred on August 07, 2015, 11:01:48 pmSo you find it a little off putting that I reply to comments to correct them and this does not make you more willing to try my software. Let’s be honest here; you have not tried the software and will not try it because I respond to erroneous comments posted on this forum. Your argument details that if one person posts a comment then there are many more who would do so. How about contrary opinions? Did you ever do statistics at university? So if you go on Amazon, you seek out the one star reviews and base your purchase on them. If so, I suggest Amazon does not see must trade from you. You have a prejudiced view. Guilty verdict before seeing the evidence. I just hope you never get called for jury service. Oh dear

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 07, 2015, 11:55:44 pm
content: Christ, you're a dick. How do you have customers?

author: Wilksey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2015, 12:39:58 am
content: Quote from: wilfred on August 08, 2015, 12:09:54 amIndeed. Point and case!

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 08, 2015, 01:07:45 am
content: IliyaI paid for your software to support your effort to provide it for free for hobbyists. I understand your need to eat, and your offense at people criticizing your work. It is all your personal work and it is hard to be objective about faults pointed out by others. Your attitude has been a bit puzzling to me. You offered this for free and then pulled it very quickly. Why? Do you really think that arguing with people with suggestions to help you and then making the software pay only in such a short time is good for your business?Those who want free software will either go somewhere else, or crack your protection, which is a joke.I tried to support you, but I don't think I can anymore. I have a license, but I now think my efforts to support you have been wasted. I know you will take offense to a paying customer complaining about this, but maybe you will understand what you have done to the support that has been given to you. Hopefully!

author: timofonic
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2015, 01:59:36 am
content: Despite KiCad current faults, this is one of the reasons I prefer GPL "Free" Software.I think you must reconsider yourself and stop your stubbornness, recognize your faults and analyze yourself. Nothing wrong about it, I have been and I still have some jerky attitudes that I try to fix in all possible ways while avoid to hurt myself. It's very hard to do, we the humans are very arrogant creatures.I understand a one man project like an EDA software is a titanic task, very stressful and extremely difficult to manage.Are you able to get incomes to work full time on the project?Are you considering to form a small team? Would that make it a viable business model?There are other alternatives such as crowdfunding to make it Open Source and prepare the code to be used by other developers and make it multiplatform, plus make a survey to what improvements people might want. Maybe a bounty model could be feasible and more attractive to users.

author: Iliya
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2015, 02:01:14 pm
content: Quote from: Lightages on August 08, 2015, 01:07:45 amWhy is theft a joke?If someone steals from you do you burst out laughing.

author: ElektroQuark
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 08, 2015, 02:26:47 pm
content: Lightages didn't say theft is a joke.

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2015, 02:30:42 pm
content: How about trying some reading comprehension before lashing out at your own customers?

author: Neganur
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 08, 2015, 02:57:03 pm
content: Since we are playing the word game, cracking is not theft. it is Copyright infringement.

author: Iliya
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2015, 03:23:10 pm
content: Quote from: c4757p on August 07, 2015, 11:55:44 pmWell, that's well formed argument.

author: firewalker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2015, 03:33:01 pm
content: Everyone who wants the free version of AutoTrax send me pm.Alexander.

author: Iliya
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2015, 03:34:27 pm
content: Quote from: Neganur on August 08, 2015, 02:57:03 pmCracking software to use it without paying is theft. It seems some people have no sense of right or wrong.Anyway, this lack of morality is why I stopped the not for profit software. Seems some people on this forum do not respect copyright and license agreements.There is no longer any discount for users of this forum; it ran out at Easter.If any of you wish to actually try out the software and possibly purchase a legal copy please download from:http://www.kov.comIf you don't want to even try it out, then please refrain from making uneducated comments.It's only $99. All in, no crippled version or restrictions.P.S. I will cancel the accounts of users who make illegal copies and take all legal remedies to pursue software pirates including reporting them to the police in their respective countries. This is not a joke.

author: Iliya
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2015, 03:36:57 pm
content: Quote from: firewalker on August 08, 2015, 03:33:01 pmWhat is your full name and address?

author: firewalker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2015, 03:53:53 pm
content: Guys! you flooded my inbox.Download KiCad ->Here<-Alexander.

author: Iliya
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2015, 04:02:11 pm
content: Quote from: firewalker on August 08, 2015, 03:53:53 pmIts a link to KiCAD. He is using this forum to con you into downloading KiCAD - if it is KiCAD!. Check for viruses.

author: firewalker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2015, 04:12:47 pm
content: Quote from: Lightages on August 08, 2015, 01:07:45 amIf I remember correctly, the free version had no protection. It was printing "For non commercial use only" (or something) to every layer of the board. Someone could attack it by changing the generated berger files. Another solution would be to search the binary for the string and change it to "" (I don;t know if it is possible and don't belive it would be implemented like that).Aside the educational aspect of bypassing limitations, the software is so cheap though that doesn't worth the time spend.If I remember correctly from older test made by other forum users the biggest problem was the company selling the product and not the product it self.Alexander.

author: 0xdeadbeef
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2015, 04:38:01 pm
content: Quote from: firewalker on August 08, 2015, 04:12:47 pmThere are problems on both sides. If the tool was only nearly as good as the developer thinks it is, we'd all gladly pay the $99. There would be no need for him trying to trick people into using a crippleware version that prints "non commercial" strings over pads and holes. Then again, unfortunately, the tool is not that great at all and the developer is neither willing to listen to customer suggestions not is he able to accept that someone could willingly decide to use another opion instead. Actually he is either not willing or able to understand that his whole behavior is the worst he could possibly do to advertise his product. As he is not willing/able to understand that his own broken free/unlimited version promises (and things like suddenly appearing new versions with dramatic price increases etc.) are much worse than that of any of the "Trojan Horse" tools he accuses of tricking customers.Besides, it should be clear to him and any potential customer that investing time and money in a one person show is a big risk. And it's not so much about the money in this case. Porting libraries and projects to a new tool because the old one is no longer supported is not really fun to do.

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2015, 04:42:45 pm
content: Quote from: firewalker on August 08, 2015, 03:53:53 pmQuote from: Iliya on August 08, 2015, 04:02:11 pmIt is indeed a link to the (semi-)official Windows developer/preview build of KiCad. No viruses.

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2015, 04:44:23 pm
content: Quote from: Iliya on August 08, 2015, 03:23:10 pmYou made all my arguments for me, I didn't have to say anything

author: Iliya
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2015, 04:55:08 pm
content: Quote from: c4757p on August 08, 2015, 04:42:45 pmSo, is it OK to give links to download software when it's something else?

author: Neganur
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 08, 2015, 05:24:48 pm
content: Quote from: Iliya on August 08, 2015, 03:34:27 pmI'm not interested in discussing morality (or ethics) (sense of "right" and "wrong"). What you are referring to is not theft.

author: firewalker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2015, 05:31:41 pm
content: I am going to sueDEX 2020 Ltd10 Meadowsweet WayCannockStaffordshire WS12 2GSEnglandfor disclosing private communications (governed by the laws of mailing).He should have though twice before posting.Your data are not safe with this user!

author: TheAmmoniacal
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 08, 2015, 05:33:56 pm
content: One vote from me to ban Iliya from the forums, permanently.

author: ElektroQuark
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 08, 2015, 05:34:15 pm
content: Iliya, you don't know where to stop, do you?

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2015, 05:35:12 pm
content: Quote from: firewalker on August 08, 2015, 05:31:41 pmSomuch this. Let it be heard if the dick comes and deletes his post,he just posted a customer's private details publicly!If that'snotillegal, it's at leastmassivelydickish. Donotdo business with him, he will fuck you over too.

author: Andy Watson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2015, 05:35:35 pm
content: Quote from: Iliya on August 08, 2015, 05:02:39 pmI believe it is also covered by the data protection laws too. I hope you have Mr Firewalker's permission for disclosing his personal data?

author: Iliya
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2015, 05:35:55 pm
content: Quote from: Neganur on August 08, 2015, 05:24:48 pmSoftware crackingIt's time you woke up and smelt the coffee.Are keygens and cracks illegal? Can someone be tracked from using one?These are definitely illegal. They are attempts to violate trademark, copyright and ownership of the software to enable people to get stuff for free that they should pay for. It's called software piracy and it is stealing. It would be essentially the same as if you figured out a way to break in to a friend's car and steal it. And if someone told you how to do that or gave you the means to do so, that person would also be committing a crime.It is illegal to own it and use it, it is illegal to make it (that's called aiding and abetting a crime, if nothing else.) Some companies can indeed track the illegal copies, and you will find those copies will stop working. You will get NO support from the makers of the software, and possibly even be sued over it. Other things that can happen is if you are using an illegal copy of something for school and the school finds out, they might suspend or expel you because if they knowingly allow students to use illegal software, they are implicated in the crime as well, and the software companies can make a big stink about it if they choose to do so.https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080801192110AArjed6https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_cracking

author: Iliya
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2015, 05:36:56 pm
content: Quote from: firewalker on August 08, 2015, 05:31:41 pmSee you in court.

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2015, 05:41:45 pm
content: Dude. Iliya. I really don't think you realize howbadwhat you just did is. Arguing with people (and customers!) is one thing, but posting private details? You donotdo that. He's right, it's probably illegal. And even if not, it's amassiveviolation of trust.I've come to have a very low opinion of you from this thread, and still, my jaw absolutely dropped when I saw that. Howdareyou post a private address a customer sent you?! And a fuckingGoogle Mapslink? What's the point of that? Encouraging people to stalk him at his house is the only thing I can possibly think of.This isbad. Really, really bad.Veryfew people are going to be okay with this. Almost nobody will ever do business with you if he sees you've done this.

author: Iliya
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2015, 05:47:08 pm
content: It's strange how people fail to be indignant where somebody post links/offer to supply cracked software.Perhaps it the norm for some to use pirate software.Yep, I'm done.

author: firewalker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2015, 05:49:29 pm
content: I will take no action.The ease he disclosed a private communication with sensitive data... You NEVER NEVER NEVER do that when you have a company. Even if you wanted my address for a law sue. Even if the communication is casual.If I was a customer and saw this thread I would be "spooked".

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 08, 2015, 05:49:56 pm
content: I now sincerely regret buying this software and I will gladly use anything else now.

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2015, 05:50:02 pm
content: Quote from: Iliya on August 08, 2015, 05:47:08 pmIf you don't see how that is different from posting people's personal information, you're not just an asshole, you're one of thethickestassholes I've ever seen.Good riddance. Hopefully you reallyaredone this time.Mods, can wepleasepermaban this cock? Surely this is too much for this forum. We are not 4chan.

author: Iliya
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2015, 05:50:16 pm
content: Quote from: c4757p on August 08, 2015, 05:41:45 pmHe does not have an account with DEX 2020 Ltd. He has never purchased the software. I do not know his name and address, so I cannot give out his name and address!

author: TheAmmoniacal
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 08, 2015, 05:53:25 pm
content: Quote from: Iliya on August 08, 2015, 05:47:08 pmI can understand that you're mad, but disclosing personal information like that is crossing the line. The better option would be to take a nice tone with firewalker and ask if he would be so kind not to share it. When you first give it away this is what you can expect..

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2015, 05:56:25 pm
content: Quote from: Iliya on August 08, 2015, 05:50:16 pmThen how did you, you great liar? You posted aGoogle Maps linkto what was ostensibly his house!Or are you expecting us to forget that you did that because the post was deleted?

author: Iliya
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2015, 05:59:49 pm
content: Quote from: TheAmmoniacal on August 08, 2015, 05:53:25 pmYes I am mad. He has publicly stated he is prepared to steal from me.If I do find his full name and address and does distribute cracked software from any where, I will name and shame him on my website. Thieves need to be exposed.What would you do if he stole something from your bank account,well it's only electronic isn't it so it's no big deal.However, in truth, I doubt he will. Just hot air.

author: firewalker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2015, 06:01:08 pm
content: For the record the free version is the free version that was publicly available. So I don;t believe that it is illegal to share it. There was no NDA or something for downloading the software. I didn't even installed it (GNU/Linux user)He asked my address and name privately. I send itprivatelyto do what ever he wanted with it. Send me a free version of DeX, a bomb, a lawyer, a love letter.But disclosing it publicly it's a NO NO.Alexander.

author: Iliya
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2015, 06:01:26 pm
content: Quote from: c4757p on August 08, 2015, 05:56:25 pmWhat link? What name? Can you please provide it?

author: ez24
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2015, 06:02:02 pm
content: Cool down guysThis sure is confusing and interestingQuoteWhere ?? The only address I see is for DEX 2020 Ltd which is the company name for Iliya and it is on his web site SO no violations !!!The software links are for Kicad (I think the 64 bit Windows version) SO no violations !!!Iliya does not know when people are pulling his chains

author: firewalker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2015, 06:02:52 pm
content: Quote from: firewalker on August 08, 2015, 03:33:01 pmFor the record. The free version. Not a free version...Alexander.

author: Iliya
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2015, 06:03:18 pm
content: Quote from: firewalker on August 08, 2015, 06:01:08 pm

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2015, 06:03:50 pm
content: Quote from: ez24 on August 08, 2015, 06:02:02 pmIliya posted Firewalker's private address, and then deleted it after realizing nobody thought it was funny.

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2015, 06:04:52 pm
content: Quote from: Iliya on August 08, 2015, 06:03:18 pmYou know that wasn't the intent.

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2015, 06:08:17 pm
content: Also, Iliya, yougave the software away for free! When you give something away for free, how can you honestly compare sharing it to piracy or theft? It wasfree! It's not the fault of the people who got it while you were giving it away that you changed your mind later.You can argue about whether or not it's legal, and whether it's a violation of the T&C, etc etc etc, but if you say it'stheftyou're just being disingenuous.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2015, 06:11:19 pm
content: Quote from: c4757p on August 08, 2015, 06:03:50 pmI don't think Iliya did it of his own free will out of goodness though........... Nice block of flats there in Greece though. Hopefully the grass has been trimmed, or they will be living in a jungle now after a year of good rain.

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2015, 06:11:48 pm
content: Quote from: Iliya on August 08, 2015, 06:01:26 pmYoumassive cock!You posted it!and we all saw it! Fucking dirty liar, trying to claim you didn't now.I'm not going to get it out of my history because I don't think it should be publicly visible, and frankly I don't feel beholden to your request for evidence. The moderators can see it surely, I doubt deleted posts are truly removed from the database. I hope they ban your disgusting ass.

author: Iliya
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2015, 06:13:10 pm
content: Quote from: c4757p on August 08, 2015, 06:04:52 pmThen he should have explicitly spelt it out. That's what the English language is for.He also should not distribute other peoples software, free or not, without permission. This is illegal.He should publicly apologize and withdraw the offer.Although downloading or other private copying is sometimes permitted, public distribution—by uploading or otherwise offering to share copyright-protected content—remains illegal in most, if not all countries. For example, in Canada, even though it is legal to download any copyrighted file as long as it is for noncommercial use, it is illegal to distribute the copyrighted files (e.g. by uploading them to a P2P network).https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright_infringementI know many of you don't give a damn about copyright, if it was your PCB that turned up in the Far East, I'm sure there would be a lot of squealing then.

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2015, 06:14:17 pm
content: Two wrongs don't make a right, you pathetic turd.

author: Iliya
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2015, 06:15:49 pm
content: Quote from: c4757p on August 08, 2015, 06:11:48 pmNow then 'potty mouth'. Less of the vulgarity please. You don't see me swearing.

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2015, 06:17:12 pm
content: Right, because you're too stupid to realize what you've done wrong. We're allpissedat you because we do. Funny how language tends to become less proper when you're pissed.

author: Iliya
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2015, 06:19:17 pm
content: Quote from: c4757p on August 08, 2015, 06:14:17 pmOops, there it goes again.

author: TheAmmoniacal
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 08, 2015, 06:22:35 pm
content: Quote from: Iliya on August 08, 2015, 06:19:17 pmJust admit to your mistake, we all saw it. I hope you can keep confidential what more personal information you have. People here on the forums are mostly okay guys, and not that many did see the post. You could have done worse.

author: Iliya
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2015, 06:25:16 pm
content: Quote from: c4757p on August 08, 2015, 06:17:12 pmWhat give you the right to speak on behalf of ALL the forum users. Are you not being a bit pretentious and self-important?Anyway, I'm off down the Pub (English local of course) to get some warm beer and couple of ham sandwiches.Speak to you tomorrow.

author: firewalker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2015, 06:25:42 pm
content: Guys don't bother. I though that he was a "respectable" company. It's over.Alexander.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 08, 2015, 06:27:33 pm
content: Quote from: Iliya on August 08, 2015, 06:19:17 pmKnow your limit at being a dick. You are shooting in your foot after all.

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2015, 06:29:27 pm
content: Quote from: firewalker on August 08, 2015, 06:25:42 pmI'm not just pissed for you. He hasmyprivate details too, I paid for a copy of his awful software. Now I'm quite angry that I trusted him with them.Quote from: Iliya on August 08, 2015, 06:25:16 pmI didn't say allforum users, I was stating why all the people who are now yelling at you are doing so.

author: ElektroQuark
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 08, 2015, 06:34:30 pm
content: Quote from: c4757p onTodayat 18:29:27myprivate details too, I paid for a copy of his awful software. Now I'm quite angry that I trusted him with them.Oh!, now I understand your actual active work on KiCAD. Thank you very much BTW.

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2015, 06:36:40 pm
content: You're... welcome? though I'm not entirely sure how seeing me fly off the handle at Iliya helps you understand that

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2015, 06:50:35 pm
content: I was wanting to give DEX (or whatever it is called today) a try but having to deal with someone who's head is so far up his ass that he can see day light is not appealing to me. Been down that road before with a different CAD package from a one-man-band.

author: Iliya
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2015, 06:51:28 pm
content: Quote from: c4757p on August 08, 2015, 06:29:27 pmYour details are very safe, I do not have any credit card or bank details only your name and address from PayPAL if you purchased it.Alexander has never purchased the software. I do not know his full name, only his first which be published on this forum. The address he gave me is unverified.I never gave him permission to distribute my software or to use it's name to con forum users into downloading his program, KiCAD.Quote from: firewalker on August 08, 2015, 06:01:08 pm

author: ElektroQuark
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 08, 2015, 06:51:53 pm
content: I hope I'm welcome.I'm a KiCAD user now and I really appreciate your work on it, as I appreciate all of the developers work.I'm subscribed to the KiCAD developers mailing list but only as a lurker.

author: John Coloccia
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2015, 06:57:44 pm
content: Quote from: Iliya on August 08, 2015, 06:25:16 pmDo you seriously want to start hearing from all of us? I even just downloaded it from your website yesterday, just to see what it was all about. I immediately removed it. I will never do business with you, and it's not because of your periodic meltdowns, and not even because you seem like a bit of a dick...Lord knows I've had to do business with dicks. It's because, you've crossed a line you should never cross, and there's no fixing that.Seriously, why don't you just keep working on the software, because it does look promising, and leave the marketing to someone else or word of mouth, because you're really harming yourself here. I don't like seeing people self destruct, especially if they're otherwise doing good work.

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2015, 07:00:32 pm
content: Quote from: EdoNork on August 08, 2015, 06:51:53 pmYou may also find useful:Chris Gammell's KiCad forum(quite a nice resource actually!) and the#kicadIRC channel on Freenode (where I bite significantly less than on this forum)I promise, we'll never post your private details publicly, either

author: Iliya
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2015, 07:05:06 pm
content: Cracked version of AutoTRAXThere are no cracked version out there. There are no reference to AutoTRAX on Piratebay.If you Google AutoTRAX you will find many links. I just found About 13,500 resultsDownload these are your own risk.The Software Key people get will authorize any number of machine. I trust people *. The rule is simple, only one user at a time. That user can be anyone.The Software Key contains only the encrypted account ID of the purchaser (A GUID) and the purchase date.* Perhaps not a good idea now.

author: firewalker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2015, 07:06:49 pm
content: Yes, it was his right to publicly disclose my infos. I never told him not too. He made a terribly choice. He has to live with it.BTW, he never told me that I am not allowed to share a binary file it was publicly available some months ago...I am almost certain that under my country's law I can share that file if there is no economical benefits for me. Although I had never the intention to do so... I was just fishing.Alexander.

author: ElektroQuark
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 08, 2015, 07:08:23 pm
content: Quote from: c4757p onTodayat 19:00:32Bah!, you say that now... Let's see when you change the tool from free to payment...

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2015, 07:08:48 pm
content: Quote from: Iliya on August 08, 2015, 07:05:06 pmOh my god, that isrich!

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2015, 07:09:05 pm
content: Quote from: EdoNork on August 08, 2015, 07:08:23 pmO0

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 08, 2015, 07:16:14 pm
content: Quote from: firewalker on August 08, 2015, 07:06:49 pmActually no. It works an opposite way, he had to get your agreement to disclose the data, not other way.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Information_privacy_lawQuote

author: Iliya
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2015, 07:20:47 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on August 08, 2015, 07:16:14 pmQuote from: firewalker on August 08, 2015, 06:01:08 pmPlease read the words...Odd how indignant somebody gets who offers to illegally distribute software.

author: Bob F.
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2015, 07:21:59 pm
content: Quote from: c4757p on August 08, 2015, 07:08:48 pmI know! Amazing! A couple of pages ago I thought it was just bog-standard lack of self-awareness, but in his last few posts ("the address he gave me is unverified" as an excuse to publish it etc) I think it has actually become pathological.Talk about burning your bridges, inserting a stick of dynamite up your own arse, and lighting the blue touch-paper... I would not buy oxygen from this guy if I was stranded on the moon in a leaking spacesuit.[edit: andstillhe continues... ]Blimey.

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2015, 07:25:25 pm
content: That's okay, now that I've calmed down and am not fuming anymore, we can both sit back and enjoy the freak show.*hands Bob F. a beer*

author: Bob F.
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2015, 07:32:42 pm
content: Quote from: c4757p on August 08, 2015, 07:25:25 pmCheers!*hands c4757p the popcorn*

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 08, 2015, 07:32:58 pm
content: Well the money went from my pocket for this software, and now AutoTRAX just left my computer. I hate throwing money away, but I also hate throwing time away. No more time lost with this guy.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2015, 07:35:35 pm
content: Quote from: Lightages on August 08, 2015, 07:32:58 pmJust look at it as investing in experience instead. Cheap at the price.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 08, 2015, 07:40:22 pm
content: Quote from: Iliya on August 08, 2015, 07:20:47 pmI like the way how you do like to omit the details and tell the part truth without even keeping the record to what you have posted previously.Quote from: Iliya on August 08, 2015, 06:03:18 pmQuote

author: firewalker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2015, 07:41:45 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on August 08, 2015, 07:16:14 pmYes I know it.But it is like I am giving him a knife and tel him do what ever he want with it. It doesn't mean he have the right to stab someone. He doesn't understand simple things.By his logic he never told anyone about sharing the free version of DeX.Alexander.

author: con-f-use
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 08, 2015, 07:45:40 pm
content: Good explanation Alexander, now setting a trap for the poor guy wasn't to nice either, seeing he already made clear what a person he is, butThis is just for the record, because my feelings wanted to vent:I installed Dex. I deleted it now and will never give it another thought. That was before its developer, posted private details, covered it up and lied about doing the latter two.Now Iliya: I can say, I'm going to give you crack cocaine for free if I want. If I actually do that, it's a crime. If I give you chamomile tea instead, it's not! No matter how much you think/wish it was crack.If you then cut my hand off, and tell people it was, because you didn't get your promised crack, it's both stupid and admitting your crime of seeking to obtain crack cocaine (and the cutting bit). Now replace crack cocaine, by crack as in software, and that's, in essence, what you did.I'm saying, firewalker did NOT do anything wrong, let alone illegal and you went over-board. You did it because you put your heart into your program and felt someone was threatening it. But nobody did. Even if firewalker (aka. Alexander) had, as someone pointed out, two wrong do not make a right and vigilante justice is banned for a reason. If I steal from you, you may sue me, you may not cut off my hand!You, Iliya come off as border-line delusional and paranoid. Consider taking a long vacation and working on something else for a while.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 08, 2015, 07:50:02 pm
content: Quote from: firewalker on August 08, 2015, 07:41:45 pmDid you explicitly state that he can do everything with it?

author: Flump
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2015, 07:51:17 pm
content: #101 how to make sure no one buys your software in the future-The power of Google-

author: Neganur
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 08, 2015, 07:54:09 pm
content: Quote from: Iliya on August 08, 2015, 05:35:55 pmWith all due respect, perhaps you should consult a lawyer and not wikipedia or yahoo groups.(could you also please mark the text you are quoting from yahoo, you make it look like they are your own words)The person you are quoting wrote what you quoted 7 years ago, and the person is from the USA. The laws there are very different from Europe.I am also not talking about (nor am I claiming) if the use/possession of cracks is illegal, or what you think is legal or illegal in your or others countries. What I am pointing at is that you call copyright infringement theft. It is not that simple.

author: firewalker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2015, 07:55:10 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on August 08, 2015, 07:50:02 pmNo! Off curse not.When you send such infos to someone there is a social contract (protected by law in many cases). For an address it is to send letters packages etc.

author: firewalker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2015, 07:59:25 pm
content: Quote from: firewalker on August 08, 2015, 06:01:08 pmHe is incapable of understanding simple things.Alexander.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 08, 2015, 08:21:23 pm
content: Quote from: firewalker on August 08, 2015, 07:55:10 pmSoIliya, could you please provide some part of the message fromfirewalkerwhere he allows you to do at least whatever you want? Even without mentioning disclosure (as you consider disclosure as doing anything) before you actually disclosed the personal data. Not copying the message fromfirewalkerafter the fact of disclosure already happened and in which he actually didn't agree with disclosure. You should be okay with sharing this much of data, yes? According to youfirewalkeragreed to disclose personal data from his massage after all, did he?

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 08, 2015, 10:45:26 pm
content: Iliya is now banned.Posting a users personal home address is beyond unacceptable.

author: firewalker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2015, 11:03:57 pm
content: He send me a Cease and Desist Notice via PM.He demanded a compliance email within 10 days, by me, but gave no email address.Now I can;t answer...Alexander.

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2015, 11:16:19 pm
content: Cease and desist by PM, oh, that's great.What a plonker.

author: firewalker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2015, 11:33:40 pm
content: At user named Iliyia.A) I woke up my lawyer. He told me that you must send me the Cease and desist order in Greek language. It's not valid otherwise.B) There is no infringement. I have not shared, reverse engineered, edited or even installed any of the above mentioned software (I only install quality software btw).I CAN NOT cease and desist something that isn't there or ever will be. There is NO copying and/or distribution of AutoTRAX DEX.C) You are asking for an email, but you don;t provide an email address...Alexander.

author: pickle9000
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2015, 11:38:20 pm
content: Quote from: firewalker on August 08, 2015, 11:33:40 pmYou forgot to add, "Please reply by mail, you already have my address".

author: ez24
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2015, 11:41:31 pm
content: QuoteIf "he" is Iliya then you can mail, email, or call him via his web site. I wasn't always sure who was who during this entertaining pissing contest. I was trying to figure out what AutoTRAX could do. Never could figure out if it could do routing.http://kov.com/Company

author: firewalker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2015, 11:51:26 pm
content: Yes I know, but there is no reason to.Alexander.

author: ez24
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2015, 12:03:01 am
content: To lighten up thingsfromhttps://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/tesla%27s-new-snake-charger-robot/You can make your own judgement on which end was who.

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2015, 02:47:18 am
content: I told you guys back in FebQuote from: Bud on February 24, 2015, 03:49:41 pm

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2015, 07:42:22 am
content: Quote from: firewalker on August 09, 2015, 12:04:55 amSo that is where the 22 layer boards Vincent ( free e-) has been working on recently are installed.

author: firewalker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2015, 12:21:44 pm
content: Today I installed the free version of DeX AutoTrax on VirtualBox. Although it was little sluggish (VM's fault) I can say:It is better than Altium Designer, PADS, KiCad and GEDA.Alexander.

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2015, 12:44:40 pm
content: Better than Altium Designer? Consider me skeptical.

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2015, 12:46:38 pm
content: Even its truly better than anything else on this earth, with the attitude and integrity shown here, would you trust the software will not "leak" out your work, destroy your work, call home and leak everything inside your machine or worst do something nasty in your machine where you installed it ?Yes, literally as true trojan horse application.

author: firewalker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2015, 01:02:01 pm
content: I was kindly asked not to say anything bad for this EDA software. After testing it, I can say it is better than Altium and KiCad. I have now deleted the software and the installation files.Although better, I really really really prefer KiCad.Alexander.

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2015, 01:16:10 pm
content: Ah, fair enough. I can see why you'd want to keep yourself from using such an amazing piece of software. One doesn't want to become too accustomed to such a good thing, lest one find oneself stuck using something else and unable to tolerate its shortcomings.O0

author: mswhin63
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2015, 01:49:25 pm
content: I have found this software to be quite good, but after the latest round of discussion I am going to KiCAD and seriously look at alternatives. I originally downloaded and installed the software and even purchased it mostly because it presented simulation in a single software which was a plus. But I have asked for further development, forum requests bug requests and received no answers relating to simulation.Thinking back I have never received a reply back regarding any bugs only lucky to say they have been enacted. I can't afford Altium at all so it is totally out of the question their free software CircuitMaker is a complete joke and if that is something to go by then Altium will only be used because it seems to be an industry standard.KiCAD is improving so I am going to struggle with it for a while and maybe continue to use non upgraded version of AUTOTrax until I see either the writing on the wall or a greater improvement in customer relations.Although Iilya made a terrible mistake there are quite a number of people on this forum that will continue to goad people to get their post number up. They are partially responsible for this thread from going to the dogs.Generally most post that go over a few pages I ignore unless they represent something close to my attention, but some people in this forum just give me the shits and try to avoid them as much as possible.Quote from: firewalker on August 09, 2015, 01:02:01 pm

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 09, 2015, 11:19:48 pm
content: Quote from: mswhin63 on August 09, 2015, 01:49:25 pmUnfortunately the whole carry-on of blowing up over a minor little issue or disagreement is pretty standard for Iliya - it usually doesn't end quite so stupidly or dramatically, but this is 3rd or 4th time it's happened on this forum alone, and if you look around you'll find the same pattern repeated elsewhere too (including on his own forums).Not to mention that his whole 'trojan horse' rant is just weird, when you consider that this thread started with "Free Unlimited Autotrax!" - which then without warning became "$49 Unlimited / Free Limited & crippled", and is currently "$99 Unlimited / Free crippled".(Not whining about that - at $99 it's still remarkable value, and if you try Autotrax & like it then knock yourself out - but it's more than a little disingenuous and hypocritical, and for me it's just the icing on an already unpalatable cake.)And then you get a glimpse into the ongoing development process which seems to owe more to whatever Iliya feels is fun & interesting to implement at the time, rather than "what are my users asking for, and how can I make my software better?".When the same sorts of things keep happening in different times & at different places, you start to wonder if the issues Iliya keeps facing really are due to everyone else or if it's actually him.That said, Autotrax really is a remarkable piece of software; doubly so for being the product of a one-man-band. Like any software, though, it comes with its own set of peculiarities - it's just that in the case of Autotrax they're not all in the code...

author: mswhin63
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2015, 11:38:46 pm
content: I have spoken to Iilya about this. I personally did not see the address being posted, I DID though see the attempt by firewalker create a disturbing link openly link a hack or a full version, I believe some user may have made the allegation in order to get the forum going. But it is up to the moderators to investigate the allegation. I could see this post being locked about a few of days ago, but the moderators really let it get out of control.This forum though does contain trolls and I suppose always will, unfortunately for Iilya he does not know how to deal with them. I personally attach a link to a nice video if they target me.My decision it not based solely on this forum post but another issue that is not related, but the software has it merits and I hope that Iilya can learn more about customer relations before spouting and not post offers on this forum (too late) or any other like it offering discounts or feebees.Quote from: Tac Eht Xilef on August 09, 2015, 11:19:48 pm

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 09, 2015, 11:41:40 pm
content: Obviously Iilya doesn't know what banned means. He created a new account called DEX, that one is now banned too.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 09, 2015, 11:46:23 pm
content: Quote from: Tac Eht Xilef on August 09, 2015, 11:19:48 pmYes, he was the same 10+ years ago on old forums I used to be on and I knew it would end badly when he created an account here, but I gave him a chance. He blew it.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 10, 2015, 12:15:22 am
content: Quote from: mswhin63 on August 09, 2015, 11:38:46 pmfirewalkernevercreated any link to hacked version, even not any version of autotrax, that link was for KiCad. He claimed this link to be for installer file which was publicly available on official autotrax website not so long time ago (but it actually wasn't).What I see,Ilyais a complete idiot in marketing, and complete duchebag as a person - first release a free program for noncommercial use and advertise it on multiple forums. Then remove it from his own website and start prohibiting to use that version in obsessive way. I can't even imagine how big idiot one needs to be for doing such a dick moves. If he wanted to offer it for limited time, he should give away free licence files for users for a limited time period, not acting like a moron prohibiting to use a free software that already leaked to the internet. AlsoIlyaeven didn't check if that link was for autotrax actually but started act completely mental. Afterwards, he was just lying that he didn't release personal data(after deleting his post with personal data and threatening + link to google maps). But after people started complaining about him lying, he still acted like a moron and didn't admit his fault, yet more acting like a biggest duche.

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 10, 2015, 01:28:43 am
content: His offer for a free version for hobbyists was welcome, and I purchased the commercial license just to show my support for his offering. I was happy to work through the problems in his software to help support him in his efforts to help hobbyists.Then it became obvious that he was not reacting kindly to real help and constructive criticism from real experts, and his behaviour deteriorated quickly. This last storm was the last straw. He gets no more support from anyone I would suspect, and I just threw my money in the garbage as I will not use his software again. Some people said I learned a lesson. No.... I will still try and support those who are generous and try to donate their time and work for others to benefit. The only thing I have learned is Ilya is not worth my support and time, and IMHO neither that of anyone else.

author: mswhin63
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2015, 05:01:25 am
content: Quote from: wraper on August 10, 2015, 12:15:22 amMaybe it wasn't a link to AUTOtrax but the deception was there. I do not even attempt to click on link that contained hacks as the MAY be potentially harmful, that in itself is deception too. I also found Firewalker use of language highly offensive, alot more than Iilya, but I don't see him banned. I understand Iilya responses are a bit weird but that is not my concern, he has been banned under the assumption which I have not seen about the private address remark. I also believe it was assumed from Firewalker not by the moderators. That part will always be lost to me but I saw Firewalker remarks as the most offensive you can possibly imagine. If I was a moderator then I would have instantly kicked him off as well.If his post has been deleted then I can quite happily bring it back as a attachment with the appropriate warnings.I will continue to use AUTOTrax because I already purchaced it about 2 years ago, but I will be using KiCAD as well, along with other software until I can make mind mind up finally. Altium has got a long way to go to get my satisfaction. At least I have something to fall-back on if anything happens.More importantly if there is an open source or economical software that has an integrated simulation capability then it will be top on my list.

author: mswhin63
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2015, 05:16:32 am
content: I have to make a correction.Firewalker made the in appropriate link.c4757p made the highly offensive remarks.I have had run ins with c4757p in the past and have considered him a troll in the past.Quote from: mswhin63 on August 10, 2015, 05:01:25 am

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2015, 05:45:19 am
content: Highly offensive? Iliya shared a customer's private information that was given to him with trust. That's slimy and disgusting and I told him so. Then he lied and I told him he was a liar. Profane? Sure. I was angry at him. I was stunned that he did something so wrong and so stupid. No, I don't normally talk like that. But I fail to see how it was "highly offensive". Iliya demonstrated himself very clearly here to be a piece of shit. Few people now would disagree with that, and I said nothing stronger than that.If I've said anything trollish toyouit can't have been over anything important as I don't remember it. In that case, I apologize.

author: IanJ
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 10, 2015, 05:53:59 am
content: Quote from: Lightages on August 10, 2015, 01:28:43 amI could have written the above......exactly how I feel.Ian.

author: mswhin63
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2015, 07:07:10 am
content: Well it is possible you saw the particular thread, what I was told is that Firewalker has never downloaded the software and so his information is not on file in the first place. That makes it difficult to issue a post with address details.Lets see the fact here. I have not seen the post. It is believed it was deleted, the moderators may have something on file with regards to that, for the moment I only have your word for it along with some fairly substantial profanity which Iilya has not done. I have a copy of your post in an email so there is no denying that it was said along with Iilya denying the disclosure. That is way worse than forward and backward bantering, that shows that you also have some stability issues. Even your reaction in the quote below is the norm for you, just you went too far in this last part of the thread. You are lucky I am not an moderator!So did you see the post did you copy the post? Apart from firewalker did anyone else see the post, did the moderators see the post? Can they resurrect the post? The message I have on hand is that Iilya stated he did not send private details so it is a situation of he said/he said.More importantly did the moderators ban Iilya because it was said that the address details were distributed or did the moderators for whatever reason just accepted what firewalker and yourself said?Lot of questions that can only be answered by the moderators or administrator. So far from the posts left behind Iilya was targeted in a attempt of deceit and the post by firewalker to create a fictitious link of hacked software is clear and warranted that he should be removed from this forum.In the past you have used the similar profanity in past posts which most of the time does not bother me but the most recent I would have thought went too far past any general forum post.Quote from: c4757p on August 10, 2015, 05:45:19 am

author: firewalker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2015, 07:16:24 am
content: There was no hacked version! I never never never mentioned a version modified in any way. Is it so difficult to understand? It was his official version. The version given by Iliya. Like this one.http://www.kov.com/DexDownloads/Dex-6.40.12.exeBTW, Iliya didn't create a new account. He always had the account DEX.Alexander.

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2015, 07:24:45 am
content: So your problem with me is justprofanity? Perhaps here I used a bit more of that than is often deemed socially desirable, but dude, they'rewords. I have no intent to offend you, but if that is how you define 'offensive' then I suppose I can not claim an intent not to offend you either.

author: firewalker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2015, 07:31:12 am
content: What is he decides that no one must use the free version? Will send Cease and Desist forms to every email that register for the free version? He has the emails. For a period you had to register an email in order to download the free version. At some time he posted a link here you could directly download the free version, with the password for the free version. That is how I obtained it.Alexander.

author: mswhin63
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2015, 07:47:14 am
content: This message was changed, I saw Autodex instead. Direct Quoting does not show the message was edited. So I copied and pasted it.Quote

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 10, 2015, 07:50:17 am
content: Quote from: mswhin63 on August 10, 2015, 07:07:10 amFor what it's worth I saw Iliya's post & made a screenshot of it. It was just past 3am for me & I was going back to bed, so I was going to report it to the mods after I got up. When I looked later that morning, Iliya's post was gone.Wraper posted an image (with address & Google maps link removed) above; it's a slightly later & expanded edit of the one I grabbed (which itself is of an edit made a couple of minutes after the original post), but the blacked-out bits correspond to the address & link in my screenshot.Firewalker, PM me if you want a copy or would like me to delete it.

author: mswhin63
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2015, 07:50:27 am
content: Maybe it is time for the moderators to lock the thread, it serves no real purpose any more

author: mswhin63
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2015, 07:53:48 am
content: If you have the post then post it to the moderators and let them see and confirm the posting. Hopefully they will post a message and lock the thread.I have no need to see the message, only confirmation.Quote from: Tac Eht Xilef on August 10, 2015, 07:50:17 am

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 10, 2015, 07:57:13 am
content: Quote from: mswhin63 on August 10, 2015, 05:16:32 amHe has been told to pull his head in.QuoteHe posted a users full name and address, evidence for such has been provided in the screen shot posted.That instantly got him banned, as it will anyone else who does it.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 10, 2015, 08:02:39 am
content: Quote from: c4757p on August 10, 2015, 05:45:19 amYou just did it again.I had to delete one of your posts. Don't make me have to do it again, because if the moderators have to hit the delete button too many times on a particular user, the next button hit is the ban button.Play nice.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 10, 2015, 08:05:04 am
content: Quote from: c4757p on August 10, 2015, 07:24:45 amA reminder to all, you can't just swear like a drunken sailor in this forum. Sure they are "just words", but we are trying to keep a higher standard here.

author: firewalker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2015, 08:13:40 am
content: Quote from: mswhin63 on August 10, 2015, 07:47:14 amYes, Iliya asked me to change it. So I did. I added the word KiCad. Nothing more, nothing less.Alexander.

author: Wilksey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2015, 10:45:30 am
content: I am a bit baffled why certain users are defending Ilya as he has proven himself time and time again to be unwilling to show any kind of gratitude to people who point out flaws in his software and are actually trying to help him create a better product, he clearly does not want to be told the truth and buries his head and spews illiterate ramblings about a trojan horse, not all byte patchers embed trojans or viruses into their modifications, trust me I know!The point that people are so upset about is the fact he posted someone's personal details, whether firewalker gave him the correct information or not, the intention was there to post that users information without a second thought, and for what reason? A "threat" to post a link to a free legitimate version of software offered by the author not so long ago.I'm sorry to those that disagree, but Ilya's ban was a long time coming and good riddance to the nuisance!

author: timofonic
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2015, 10:50:18 am
content: Obviously the situation was flaming.IIliya has quite conservative ideas and has even more social awkwardness than me, but I somehow try to control my stupidity and learn from my tons of constant errors (so someday I'll be a behavioral expert!). I'm far for perfect on it, but I'm able to accept critics and try it harder next time!People made fun of his attitude, with lack of reading between lines and unable to empathy to others. He was unable to put in shoes off others and understand users' needs too.I see this served to know DEX developer even more and a somehow interesting cybersocial experience, but a flame thread was created.Some people got too emotional and somehow they behaved a bit like the "bad guy" here (the DEX developer), without control themselves avoiding the use of strong words instead of only using strong and well reasoned arguments, which have been used too but lacked a more polite form. I know it's hard to do, I'm quite impulsive and emotional sometimes too, but emotional self-control can avoid so much conflicts and damages.I suggest to use the advantages of written words in a non realtime communication method: Read it twice, think about what can happen after your message and if your contribution is useful or just a way to get out your bad mood from your mind.I know this may sound as typical political correct shit here that even Linus Torvalds was blamed because of it (but he's somehow polite, just demanding and having a strong attitude with bad done stuff from skilled developers because of laziness or shit like Nvidia and propietary software drivers), but here it is:- There have been KiCad developers or collaborators involved in the discussion, this isn't good for the project or attracting users, even worse if they became part of a heated discussion. Please consider it, you are having a great responsability as being part of this _promising project_ and a really good and healthy FOSS EDA project is something very needed in this industry for tons of reasons (kill oligopolies and making Open Hardware concept easier to realize are just two of tons more of them)- I understand you can become extremely annoying if someone published your full name and address here on the Internet, there's no excuse for that at all. Despite he "stole" software (that's assuming a intellectual work can become a property, that violates physics laws and is a very artificial limit that seems to be not positive for progress, that's because copyleft was born), which he didn't and just was a bit "trollish" because wanted to make fun of that developer's attitude. There's have been provocation involved, but the developer acted in a very irresponsible and illegal way so it should be very hardly punished (he deserves it even in legal form too).- It's a shame skilled developers wastes resources on this kind of useless and destructive flamebaits and uses this time on other stuff such as development or user feedback instead. I'm referring to both KiCad developers and to the DEX developer.------DEX developer is a very small fish on the big sea of EDA, but he acted worse than many giant fishes out there.This is one of the reasons I prefer Free Software:Good managed FOSS projects will finally end becoming successful and getting better at many more areas than proprietary ones. They aren't just better at respecting user freedom (that's important), but they're a lot better at receiving user feedback too.------In an ideal world:- IIliya would think very deeply for weeks about his attitudes and even consult good mental health professionals. I think this could be good for everyone out there, but the big issues are able to find good ones and able to afford one if your country's mental health public mental care sucks (that's very common). He would fix his issues and apologize for them.- The rest would give apologies for contribute to the flame with someone that has obvious social issues and forgive him. And even consult mental health professionals for anger management and other issues, like I did.- Illya and other developers would become a prolific KiCad developer and get good incomes for a living by a bounty system, this would be followed by many other previous proprietary EDA developers. They would reimplement good ideas of his previous software and even be logical and reasonable about other's feedback, plus new ones or useful ideas from others.- Everyone would be happy and most electronics geeks in the world would use KiCad, develop our own electric cars and make all kind of Open Hardware with our very inexpensive but really good OSHW 3D printers.- World peace would be achieved.- People would instantly learning all about EE, CS and other knowledge+skills by downloading it to our brains in minutes. This would be achieved by using new Dave's Open Hardware, BrainPlug, plus with tons of copyleft work processed by Open Source advanced AI and many copyleft mind uploads.- We would colonize space in a peaceful, progressively social and knowledge promoting way, as in the Star Trek stories. Dave would be one of the commanders.(Note to people: This last part has many ironic stuff. If your brain is unable to detect it, please consult a mental health professional if you didn't it before).

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2015, 02:07:45 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on August 10, 2015, 08:02:39 amerm, I just did itagain? One single usage of "shit"? I agree that prior postings of mine in this thread were a bit over the top, butagain? With a single "shit"? Come on Dave, that's like every second word out of your mouth.Circuiteromalaguito: I pretty much agree with everything you said.

author: timofonic
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2015, 02:54:13 pm
content: Quote from: c4757p on August 10, 2015, 02:07:45 pmOkay. So let's stop this SHIT and let the fun continue again.Peace, bro!

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2015, 02:58:16 pm
content: Peace, dude. O0

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2015, 03:51:31 pm
content: I have tried to control myself, but must respond.We have here a extremely talented software developer with extremely poor social skills. (That seems strangely unsurprising, doesn't it?). He has developed a useful, but flawed piece of software. One that I personally like better than the other options in its price range. Maybe I can learn to like KiCAD, but that's not where I am right now.What has our respond been? To push all the buttons on this geeky nerd, and then punish him for his responses and tar the software he has developed. Were his responses way out of line and out of proportion to the provocation. Of course they were. Refer to the first sentence of the above paragraph. Have we thrown the baby out with the bathwater? Possibly, but then that doesn't matter when you can chalk up a victory in a flame war does it?A fine demonstration of evolved social skills. Perhaps we should go find some greek letters and call ourselves a fraternity.

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2015, 04:18:24 pm
content: I agree with CatalinaWOW, that's why I felt I had to respond in the moderation report thread.https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/moderation-reports/msg726962/#msg726962I for one, I'm not celebrating the end result.

author: PA0PBZ
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2015, 05:27:11 pm
content: I reported this thread to the moderators around the 5th with the suggestion to close it because I saw this coming, unfortunately no action was taken.

author: 0xdeadbeef
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2015, 05:27:31 pm
content: Well, we all learned to swallow our pride and sometimes be rather polite than to tell everybody how stupid they are. Ilya obviously didn't. And honestly it's about time for him to learn. There's no way he'll ever be a successful entrepreneur if he's behaving like that. While I wouldn't suspect him to change his ways after being banned, there's maybe a slight chance he'll realize that his kind of attitude and way of dealing with potential or existing customers is hurting himself.Which would he really desirable as there's surely potential in his software. At this point, I still find it unusable for me, but he sure has the ability to make it a decent EDA tool. It surely wouldn't hurt though if he'd find a way to improve his way of public relations and customer support.

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2015, 05:39:47 pm
content: Quote from: miguelvp on August 10, 2015, 04:18:24 pmI do not, because the guy did not seem to understand where to stop. He continued fueling the fire instead.

author: ez24
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2015, 06:29:20 pm
content: Quoteme tooIs there another alternative to this kind of thing (a ban)? Like a suspension? I think all three should have been suspended for a month. They really goated Iliya and if I remember right the "s" word was not the only slang used, there was some rather rude language and things used against Iliya, like I have never seen before on a forum (only in a bar fight). All parties should have been locked up.Loosing a developer of a useful (or maybe useful) software is not a good thing no matter what happened.My suggestion to Iliya is hire a salesman (could be a student intern) and let him come to this forum, it would be a good experience for a student.Iliya RIP

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2015, 06:50:53 pm
content: Losing a businessman who cannot be trusted with his customers' private data isalwaysa good thing. Like I said, I regret the inflammatory way in which I chose to say some things, but I stand by the meaning behind them (and every last bit of offense that they delivered directly to him, he deserved it. The rest of the forum did not, however). He is an unethical businessman and a liar. Good riddance, hopefully forever.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2015, 07:09:11 pm
content: OTOH Iliya has been warned many times to act more professional many times so people can help him improve his software. Sometimes things are just not meant to be.

author: ez24
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2015, 07:37:05 pm
content: Kinda off subject but I think I saw it here a few posts backO0Afro - what does this mean? Is it a retro 70s thing ? I just wish I had one (I am bald).

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2015, 07:50:34 pm
content: I'll be completely honest, I have no idea what it's supposed to 'mean'. But sometimes, it just feels appropriate. O0

author: Wytnucls
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2015, 07:51:16 pm
content: I only have good things to say about Ilyia. I am grateful that he made his PCB application available for free for a while to hobbyists like me, who have no interest in purchasing expensive professional programs to produce one board as a learning experiment.Unlike most here, I did take the time to learn how to use DEX and in the enjoyable process, had a fair amount of interaction with its developer. Exchanges were always courteous and solutions to problems were offered within days, if not hours.It is sad that he is not present here anymore, but all is not lost as the software development will continue and for those who bought the program, his support is still available on the AutoTRAX site.

author: ozwolf
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2015, 11:57:31 pm
content: Quote from: Wytnucls on August 10, 2015, 07:51:16 pm+1

author: pickle9000
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 11, 2015, 04:48:52 am
content: Ilyia did good by me. I purchased the program to try out out on a few small jobs and had no real learning curve. The software itself seems very solid and for small one offs it fit's the bill.On the service side. He implemented a program change and had it up and running within 48 hours. The beauty of a one man show is being able to do that sort of thing. No complaints there.I have read the thread and basically it's a train wreck. No winners. This will do damage to his product, mainly because of the willingness of others to criticize the software and thus make it better. I would like to see the software survive and improve.

author: firewalker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 11, 2015, 08:27:43 am
content: Quote from: Iliya on March 28, 2015, 08:22:42 pmI was sure I had downloaded the free version by single clicking a link on this forum! And guess what... It is still available for download.Alexander.

author: Wilksey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 11, 2015, 10:36:15 am
content: Maybe he is still "active" as the link 404's

author: firewalker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 11, 2015, 11:02:25 am
content: Yep, it's dead now.Alexander.

author: Deathwish
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 11, 2015, 11:36:45 am
content: The chances are he is reading this anyway, it only takes a throw away email to register and a proxy to come through.

author: firewalker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 11, 2015, 11:40:10 am
content: Proxy? The ISPs in UK use static IPs?Alexander.

author: Deathwish
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 11, 2015, 11:41:45 am
content: only if you pay for it i believe, however i have a large number of proxies I pay for because of erm shall we say efnet and other nefarious activities, I can log in from melbourne or sydney in oz, or any country in the world to be honest.

author: Deathwish
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 11, 2015, 11:51:01 am
content: I am now logged in from sydney. Is this where I now say "g'day mate" , the problem is that you can ban someone but they will win if they want to, I used to be an op on a particular efnet channel or two and I got sick of the times I kept banning some fools nick and ip address, he just kept hopping servers and proxies, add using Tor into the proxy chain and its a nightmare.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 11, 2015, 01:58:03 pm
content: Quote from: c4757p on August 10, 2015, 02:07:45 pmIt's not the word shit, it's the context in which you said it. You calledsomeonea "piece of shit". That is apersonal attackand is the #1 thing that is not tolerated on this forum. It is the reason most people get banned on here (not that we ban many people in the scheme of things). Don't do it again.If you can't understand the difference and can't play nice then you are not welcome here.QuoteAs above.

author: mswhin63
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 11, 2015, 02:39:25 pm
content: Thanks Dave, I don't usually go running to the moderator but it is nice to see some clamping down.BTW, I saw the deleted post that caused the controversy. It seems that Iilya didn't realise he broke the Forum Rules thinking he was banned but of a privacy issue.I also saw the post where Alexander said do what you want with the address details.Anyway, seeing Iilya is not here to defend his product any-more, maybe a good idea to lock the thread.MalcolmQuote from: EEVblog on August 11, 2015, 01:58:03 pm

author: firewalker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 11, 2015, 04:54:33 pm
content: Quote from: mswhin63 on August 11, 2015, 02:39:25 pmYou saw the wrong thing. I never told him that. Never! He asked my address via pm and I gave it to him. The message contained my address and noting else. This is what I wrote, publicly,afterhe did what he did.Quote from: firewalker on August 08, 2015, 06:01:08 pm

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 11, 2015, 05:12:25 pm
content: I don't blame Dave for banning the software developer.Even if Autotrax/DEX dies (partly because of things on this forum and this blog) it isn't the end of the world. I can move on to something else, or go back to using Eagle. So can the others who, like me, found Autotrax/DEX a good match to my needs and way of working with the world.It is unfortunate that there are those who fan the flames of discord and maintain long term vendettas. They can be found on any internet forum, including this one. If anyone feels personally offended by the last two sentences it is perhaps time for some personal reflection. Why do I feel they are aimed at me? Has the world been made better by what I have posted? In my zeal for perfection in one area of things we all desire did I cause harm elsewhere?

author: firewalker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 11, 2015, 06:29:06 pm
content: The future of his EDA has nothing to do with this forum. It has only to do with it's developer.BTW, the developer of this EDA has send private messages (which I left unanswered). You (plural) don't have the hole picture.Alexander.

author: pickle9000
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 11, 2015, 07:20:30 pm
content: Iliya is a one man show, it common in the electronics industry you have to do it all. Finding customers is a massive part of the job if you want to do well. Keeping customers is also important. For myself I spent at least 70% of my time getting new customers everything from cold calling to advertising in the end that was my full time job and I had others do the electronics.For Iliya there are other more well known packages in big business and to get into that market will be near impossible. For the hobbyist, independent contractor or small business he has a shot. The free version was probably a good bet but it would have to be out there for a year or so and be adopted by a few sites. I think limiting size or locking out features would have been a better option.Iliya, I know your reading this I know you have considered a million approaches on how to make a living off your software. For me it was about finding customers that would try my service then understanding their needs and giving a good product. It takes years to get the formula right and you need to keep at it.As an example of things that could be attractive to an arduino type group.CNC's are really popular so allowing cnc software to launch from the package would also be desirable. Creating parts in Sketchup and allowing the option to open that folder for import also a good idea. If you are unwilling to give away the package then give away 100 licenses to persons that you think will promote your product.So here is a feature for you.My scenario is that I have a device case (existing) I need to fit a pcb in. Let's call it a toy but could be anything the board will be an odd shape. It would be very helpful to have an image/photo of the existing product on a layer that could be adjusted on both the x and y axis (for scaling).This would allow for quick checking of connectors, mounting holes and so on.I know the package does have the ability to put an image on one particular layer but giving it the ability to scale, become transparent and have quick access in a menu is what I'm talking about.This is the kind of thing you are missing out on by not being part of this forum. Real world use of software. People that design boards day in and day out will always be a know what is really needed in the software.I rate at the low end pcb design, turned out pushing product / services was a better use of my time when it came to my electronics business. If you don't sell your product it will die.One last note, failures happen, what happened on this forum was a failure. Fires can happen through no fault of your own or by your own action. It is your responsibility to help put them out or not let them get started in the first place.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 11, 2015, 09:02:03 pm
content: Quote from: firewalker on August 11, 2015, 06:29:06 pmIt is unlikely that knowing the full picture would change anything. The developer behaved like a jerk. Crossed legal lines in what is already out there. He has driven away many people over the years in this and other forums. Details of exactly how bad a jerk he was, and the specific ways he did it aren't relevant to my point. Which was that he was not the only one. On this thread, or others related to this product.Even mild jerkiness has no value. Continuing to push a point when it is obvious that the recipient(s) are not receiving is one form. I am perilously close to that here, so will not say more.

author: mswhin63
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 11, 2015, 11:30:08 pm
content: I have to agree, Iilya is a fair bit over the top in customer relations.Customer relations in this thread is only with a few people, the rest will just end up using the software and making the minds up on their own. Irrespective of the cost the final result for which I know already is that his user number have increased.He has is own forum and the most aggressive nature is to say "It's fixed" or "watch this video". I personally would say a few more words. Some of the users like myself have look at the way some users flamed Iilya when he first came on board and made up our minds that the software is worthy at least to continue.They are currently sorting out small bugs in multilayer board construction where a user has completed a multilayer board construction, so it can't be all that bad as indicated in earlier posts. There will always people that will be happy to help a developer while the software is under construction.MEHQuote from: CatalinaWOW on August 11, 2015, 09:02:03 pm

author: timb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 11, 2015, 11:32:12 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on August 10, 2015, 08:05:04 amReally Dave?Really?!This coming from:A) An AussieB) Someone who makes a living out of calling things "shit".The adage that "swearing shows a lack of intelligence" is a fallacy, plain and simple. Anybody can use fancy words to project an aureus of intelligence, but that doesn't make them smart. Likewise, smart people can use colloquialisms, but that doesn't make them common.Judge people on what they say, not how they say it.Anyone "offended" by the mere presence of "naughty" words needs to realize this.Also, tits.Sent from my Smartphone

author: ez24
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 12, 2015, 12:04:04 am
content: QuoteIt was not like this - it was offensive bar room cussing with f words in large red fonts with other forms of the s word being used.. I watched this happen in real time and it was not "naughty" words, it was a very offensive exchange that belongs more to a prison forum than an electronics forum.It was not like this is a "piece of s.." and more like " you f...ing piece of s...", in large red fonts - big difference.Maybe someone can send you the passage via PM, I did not keep a copy of it.In other words there is a difference in cursing at a piece of equipment than at a member of this forum.And for those that missed the fight, Iliya was banned for posting an address. He did no cussing, people were cussing at him for posting the address.And during all of this I was trying to figure out what AutoTRAX was

author: Deathwish
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 12, 2015, 12:08:33 am
content: I dont see why everyone is getting so angry at his lack of sales skills or complaining at his lack of implementing the suggestions or input of their own ideas as to what or how his software should behave. It was never the users, it is his baby, should it sink or swim, If you dont like the end result then dont pay for it, everyone seems to be stomping their feet and throwing a hissy fit that he is not doing what they want when it is, and never was theirs in the first place, if people don't like or cant handle his attitude then simply do not input into it, let him design it to work as he wishes.If I or anyone else walked into your house and told you how your child should behave , or how you should bring it up or teach it because we expect it to behave as we want it to in society you would soon tell me or those doing it where to get off. Seriously, how many of you would really let me or a total stranger dictate or tell you how your child should be behaving or reacting with others. It is his child so to speak, let him design and implement it and stand or fall on it's own merits when finished. Dont give your time and input to it if you get told to sling your hook.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 12, 2015, 12:23:23 am
content: But what if someone is tripping over his own feet? Are you going to stand by or do you try to help?

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 12, 2015, 12:31:24 am
content: Quote from: ez24 on August 12, 2015, 12:04:04 amFor the record, the large red fonts were Iliya's added emphasis. No surprise that he also doesn't see what's wrong with modifying a quote in place without annotating it as such. Rather goes right along with the whole privacy thing that he also doesn't believe in.QuoteWhich anybody who does that deserves.Seriously, if you do that, you're either a criminal in some places (from what I hear, very likely where he lives) or no better than one. I frankly don't see what is wrong with verbal "personal attacks" against criminals. Theyareall those bad things and I fail to see why they shouldn't be told so.I would also entirely expect, if I lied to someone's face saying I hadn't done something that he saw me do, for him to become incredibly angry at me. It's the closest thing to a verbal slap in the face you could do.

author: dr.diesel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 12, 2015, 12:35:01 am
content: Him and Roland are probably drowning in solitude together.

author: Deathwish
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 12, 2015, 12:42:01 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on August 12, 2015, 12:23:23 amYou try to help to a point, but you do so understanding that you may be ignored and not to get to personally affronted by that occurrence if it happens, if you are ignored then you say " well i tried, but not again" and walk away without feeling wound up.

author: pickle9000
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 12, 2015, 12:43:58 am
content: - Iliya needed to be banned, but that is a minor thing in his life. Little more than a fly landing on his nose.- Design involves listening to your customers needs. Changing a design to sell more product is necessary. In some cases that product may be a bad attitude or whatever. Saying that the software is his baby is fine but how does that relate to selling it? Everything is feature driven (people included).

author: helius
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 12, 2015, 12:59:12 am
content: Quote from: c4757p on August 12, 2015, 12:31:24 amCongratulations on adding libel per se to your list of accomplishments, and good luck with the witch hunting.

author: Deathwish
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 12, 2015, 01:00:30 am
content: Quote from: pickle9000 on August 12, 2015, 12:43:58 amI am going to quote you NOT because I am aiming my comments at you but it relates to what i am seeing.First I am seeing a lot of people getting all squirrely at him for not listening to them and their ideas, it is as if because people tell him he should add this or do that to his software they themselves then become co designers and have a right to an input as to what he changes or does not. Simply put they do not, they are his customers or users , even merely his crash test dummies until it is fully fledged and ready for a final release, you purchase or purchased his software at the point it was in design at the moment you all did with all it's warts and pimples, you accept it as it is, at that point, or you walk away and wait for a final release letting him sort it out on his own. As for what does it have to do with sales, some people are trying to wear the mantel that they are co designers and therefore they should be worrying about sales and income from it. Why ?. If it flops it flops and it is his responsibility no one elses. Any future sales are his problem not others.

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 12, 2015, 01:40:53 am
content: Quote from: helius on August 12, 2015, 12:59:12 amYou might have quoted the partbeforethat as well, where I said it seemed likely 'from what I hear', rather than outright insisting he were as your partial quote insinuates.Quote from: wilfred on August 12, 2015, 01:11:06 amFair enough.

author: ozwolf
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 12, 2015, 03:41:01 am
content: Mummy, Daddy, please stop arguing. You're scaring me!!!

author: mswhin63
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 12, 2015, 04:41:15 am
content: Quote from: ozwolf on August 12, 2015, 03:41:01 am

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 12, 2015, 06:32:37 am
content: Quote from: timb on August 11, 2015, 11:32:12 pmYes, because this is an open public forum for the community, it is not my personal channel where I can say anything I want.And that's right, I call "things" shit,notpeople. I don't mind people using the word shit on this forum if it's warranted, I do it myself. For obvious reasons though I try and maintain this forum to as high a standard as reasonably possible when it comes to civil discourse, and try to set the rules as such.This means that words like "shit" are not banned, but we don't want someone using it or worse words in thousands of posts and flooding the forum with such talk.

author: IconicPCB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 12, 2015, 07:14:20 am
content: Deathwish,The forum is full of self styled experts on this that and the other. People who without putting forward a tiniest bit of proof of the self ascribed expertise are happy to piss on those who have put in the hard yards and presented a product with significant level of utility.Keep well and keep a level head in these troubled chambers.

author: timb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 12, 2015, 07:34:33 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on August 12, 2015, 06:32:37 amActually, it's a forum attached to your personal blog, not alt.general.electronics. So you technically can say whatever you want. But, I obviously know what you mean.Though, as far as I can tell, calling someone a piece of shit in a single post is very different from flooding the forum.Also, Ilyia was baiting people into personal attacks. You saw what he did with Vincent. It's not like everyone didn't start with civil discourse.His modus operandi is sperging out.He went full retard. You never go full retard. (Pretty sure Iron Man said that.)Sent from my Smartphone

author: timb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 12, 2015, 07:35:44 pm
content: Quote from: IconicPCB on August 12, 2015, 07:14:20 amYes, because that describes Vincent perfectly. Wait...Sent from my Smartphone

author: Deathwish
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 16, 2015, 11:10:53 pm
content: price dropped to $49 again.

author: ez24
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 17, 2015, 01:33:44 am
content: QuoteCould this be his way of apologizing?I was watching this post trying to figure out what AutoTRAX could do when the blow up occurred.Could I design a simple 2 layer board and create the files needed to send to have the board made? I would like to make a LM317 board with a couple of components just for fun. I cannot even figure out how to download Kicad let alone use it. Would this program work for me? Thanks

author: pickle9000
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 17, 2015, 01:58:38 am
content: Quote from: ez24 on August 17, 2015, 01:33:44 amYes, the software is good.

author: firewalker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 17, 2015, 05:55:06 am
content: Quote from: ez24 on August 17, 2015, 01:33:44 amYes. It should be trivial and straightforward for the use you need it.

author: Circlotron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 17, 2015, 10:24:21 am
content: Has anyone here tried using Autotrax on Wine?

author: firewalker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 17, 2015, 11:15:56 am
content: I tried the free version. It doesn't work. It was falling the installation process. If I remember correctly, there is an optimizer that compiles a part of Autotrax when installing.Alexander.

author: Wilksey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 17, 2015, 12:05:39 pm
content: Quote from: Circlotron on August 17, 2015, 10:24:21 amyes, my traces were all squiqqly and I couldn't see properly, but I had fun doing it. I think.

author: ez24
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2015, 01:46:32 am
content: http://kov.com/QuoteBack to $99 againWe need a yo-yo icon

author: IconicPCB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2015, 05:19:05 am
content: EZ too bad you missed out on a bargain!

author: pickle9000
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2015, 05:59:11 am
content: He should start up a mailing list so when he puts it on sale for $49.00 he can inform people. And perhaps have a draw for a free copy selected once a month or whatever to encourage the sign-up for the list.

author: 0xdeadbeef
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2015, 10:26:13 am
content: I'd take it as $49 saved that can be invested in a tool which doesn't annoy you by completely messing up everything each time you move a component.

author: Kintekobo
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2015, 01:09:14 pm
content: For what it's worth I was trying out this software with a VERY simple Atmel minimum system just to see how easy it was to use, and although it had a few quirks it seemed ok. Until I went from the schematic to the board layout and had the auto-router route the rats-nest. I noticed something strange about the connector and when I went to 3D it was pretty obvious that it had routed one bus right over another. Unless I have done something stupid, which is possible but hard to see what on such a simple board, it would seem that a router that crashes buss lines would be a show-stopper for me.I went to the website to raise a support issue but there doesn't seem to be a proper support point, more of a request form and no facility for uploading screen caps, so I am going to upload them here. If Iliya is checking this, perhaps he can investigate what went wrong.

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2015, 01:19:18 pm
content: To be entirely fair, I wouldn't judge an EDA package by something as useless as the autorouter, and writing a good autorouter isn't a task I'd expect an average programmer to be up to. I would recommend to Iliya making it capable of importing and exporting something like Specctra format which many external autorouters can use. Nobody's going to use your built-in autorouter because you clearly aren't the sort of computer science wizard that is needed to develop that sort of heavily algorithmic software. That's not an insult, neither am I.(That said, the autorouter producing overlaps is a complete failure and should be fixed, it shouldn't be capable of that. If it can't route it should just fail the difficult routes and let a human do them.)

author: Godzil
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2015, 04:05:00 pm
content: I would suspect there are also some DRC issues on some pin of the ATmega chip..And I agree with C4757p, the level of complexity of a not so bad* autorouter is really really high, calculation of the best route is something really difficult, especially on PCB design when you have so many limitation. They are mainly the DRC, but also that two different track can't cross, that you must not make a 90° turn on a track (or the electron may fall) etc...* I didn't say a good one because everyone knows they don't exist

author: Kintekobo
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2015, 04:27:15 pm
content: I understand and agree with what you are both saying, but I do think that a fundamental rule of a router would be 'do not crash nets'. I don't do a great deal of circuit construction and have mostly used (don't laugh) Eagle since it was just about the only product available to the hobbyist at the time and I got used to its quirks and the limitations weren't too restrictive for the small boards I made. So in my case it was quite straightforward and easy to spot the cock-up. If however I was producing a very large board with hundreds of connections then an auto-router that joined together two unconnected nets would render it completely un-usable as you would never be able to trust that it hadn't done so somewhere. Physically checking every single link would be more trouble than routing the whole thing by hand as far as I can see.

author: Godzil
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2015, 04:36:47 pm
content: That's for sure, track that collide like that or *for me* from the pictures you put the tracks on right side of the atmel chip near the middle, there are a few track that seems really close to the pad just on top, not to speak (but that's not a real issue, just a visual one) the track on the right most area that goes to a cap end quite curiously

author: Kintekobo
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2015, 04:44:17 pm
content: Godzil, if I understand you right you are referring to the strange way the tracks wander about? That was one of the most annoying things with the software when drawing the circuit. You go to join two points together both on exactly the same grid line and the track would insist on flipping up and down. Anywhere but on what should be the direct line between the two points. Very odd and quite annoying.

author: Godzil
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2015, 04:58:30 pm
content: Kintekobo: Yes that about that, the track on your cap is comming from the bottom, but it really wanted to join from the right, that really intriguing

author: pickle9000
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2015, 05:46:48 pm
content: I've always found autotrackers to be kinda wanky. I have used the one in AutoTRAX but the boards I've been doing are very simple, even so I do pretty them up afterwards.

author: Kintekobo
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2015, 05:56:28 pm
content: I'm no expert by any means and I have fairly limited experience of the different auto-routers, but what I always tended to do was lay the power and ground lines by hand, followed by the most important net connections and then let the auto-router pick up the rest. This always seemed to work fairly well. However I don't think that I ever had one auto-routed that didn't need a fair bit of tweaking afterwards.

author: Circlotron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2015, 10:40:54 pm
content: I think that the more you use an autorouter on a given board the less you can claim that it is "your" artwork.

author: pickle9000
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2015, 01:15:56 am
content: Quote from: Circlotron on August 19, 2015, 10:40:54 pmFair enough, for me it is money related. An autorouter helps speed up the design process, simple.

author: mswhin63
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2015, 03:40:28 am
content: I have seen this thread stray a lot. I think Deathwish should have provided a link to the offending article saying $49 so that it could be confirmed. No-one actually confirmed the price to $49 before going back to $99 if it did at all.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2015, 04:35:46 am
content: I have followed Autotrax/DEX for over 10 years now. He drops the price periodically. So it may have dropped when Deathwish looked.Also, it has almost always been some hybrid of a 1 year subscription and a purchase. A purchase in the sense that the version you have will work indefinitely (on similar enough hardware and software). A subscription in the sense that free updates end roughly one year later (depends on his diligence in cutting you off.) He almost always offers a very attractive price to sign up for another year.Some may regard this as another rip off or dishonest or whatever. It has always seemed to me that a vendor should be able to choose the terms of their sale. And that the buyer has at least some responsibility for understanding what they are buying. That thinking may or may not be in line with the laws of any particular country, or any philosophical group.

author: ez24
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2015, 05:20:44 am
content: QuoteI saw it at $49 on the main web site then a couple of days later $99

author: John Coloccia
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2015, 10:13:53 am
content: Quote from: mswhin63 on August 20, 2015, 03:40:28 amI got an e-mail with the $49 offer in it. I guess e-mails started coming because I downloaded a trial several weeks ago before he had his melt-down.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2015, 04:39:52 pm
content: QuoteI was doing work for a client, debugging new hardware (very densely packed dual-side SMT). We would fix a few problems, usually related to the wiremap, and a few days later there would be another brand new version of the board to debug.The layout of the boards was rubbish. So much so that another dev and I used to take the piss out of them mercilessly. There would be loops in tracks, tracks going past a pin only to come back a mm or two the other side, etc. As you say: kinda wanky. I mentioned this to the client (it was hard not to when you're debugging SATA on rubbish like this) and his view was that he could set the autorouter running when he went for lunch and then send the gerbers off when he got back, whereas it would take a couple of weeks to lay out these boards manually. He does have a point there and, the bit that really counts, the damned things worked fine once the schematic was fixed. Can't really argue with that...