Woo equipment repair ethics - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: David Aurora
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 16, 2020, 02:33:28 am
content: I posted this on my personal Facebook last night for a bit of input from friends, but I’m thinking I’d like to hear from other professionals too. Below is my post as it was, all I’ll add here is that I’m going to try to avoid details of the product at the moment to avoid any naming/shaming/etc until I come to a decision on what I want to do. Actually, one other point is that my current thoughts on accepting payment are to give it straight to a charity doing legitimate research/support for the issues this woo bullshit claims to heal.“ Alright brains trust, rant/question time.When I first moved to Melbourne my default answer to the question of “Can I bring this broken electronic thing in for repair?” was yes. I was new in town, didn’t think I’d make it as a tech in the big smoke, so despite my ads saying I fix audio gear until I got established I fixed everything from amps to TV’s to goddamn tennis ball firing machines if the phone rang.One of these oddball jobs that came in was fixing some “sound therapy” equipment (I’m going to avoid specifics as much as I can). Every tech in town had said no to this woman, she was absolutely desperate to have the gear fixed and I needed sandwiches. The perfect storm.She brought this stuff in and I started digging through it getting it going. She told me the tens of thousands of dollars it cost, and how she really couldn’t afford to replace it because she used it to help vulnerable kids and the money just wasn’t there. The problem is, I could see at a glance she had been thoroughly ratfucked by an alternative medicine pyramid scheme and the crap in front of me was worth $100 tops on Alibaba. No exaggeration. The stuff didn’t work, and I knew that for a fact.Now, anyone who knows me knows that I think alternative medicine is an absolute crock of shit, mostly because 99% is proven as ineffectual at best/harmful at worst and marketed to gullible people by straight up lying shitgibbons. But this bias didn’t even weigh in here- I know this equipment didn’t cure what it said it does (which ranged from spina bifida to autism... seriously) because THE ELECTRONIC PART THAT WAS SUPPOSED TO BE THE MAGIC CURE WAS PHYSICALLY NOT CONNECTED IN THE (supposedly working) REFERENCE UNITS. The magic bit from the sales pitch had literally become disconnected because of the cheap soldering, and nobody had noticed any change in effectiveness. The very definition of placebo effect.So, I explained what I’d seen as gently as I could so as to not break her heart and embarrass her, gave her a discount to try and balance the karma, and she gave me a theory that they must have only stopped working in the car on the way over because the treatment has been working fine. Cool, whatever, I tried.From time to time she sent more of the units in as the rest of them failed one by one, I’d patch them up, try to persuade her not to buy any more and maybe do a little more research, and we’d go our separate ways. Eventually I just couldn’t do it anymore in good conscience, couldn’t be bothered explaining any more, and just stopped accepting her calls.Fast forward to 20 fucking 20 and I get an email saying she couldn’t get me on the phone but is sending more repairs over in a box. Fuck. OK, fuck it, I figure I’ll resolder some broken wires again and tell her it’s the absolute last time because I don’t do these repairs anymore.I open up the boxes, and fuck me dead, it’s not just “sound therapy” shit. There’s a full blown, Pete Evans level bullshit, LED covered, LASER firing shit show paddle thing with a built in piezo blasting “frequencies” and, I shit thee nay, a fucking crystal glued inside a viewing window. Again, it’s claimed to heal everything. This one is apparently for use on a kid who sounds like he’s basically a fucking vegetable only being kept alive by tubes.I know these devices are bullshit (see above reviews). And I think it’s irresponsible and downright dangerous to let people dick around with snake oil when there are very real risks for not treating medical issues properly. The woman doing the therapy is lovely, an absolute sweetheart who appears to be throwing every earthly cent and minute she can get at helping people. But she’s also clearly scientifically and medically illiterate, and unwilling to educate herself (it would involve her admitting she wasted a decade on placebos).What do I do, kids? My current thought is I’ll do what I can on repairs so the stuff at least turns on, try to look after her on the bill, then tell her that while I realise she’s got great intentions, I respectfully refuse any more work based on my technical knowledge and understanding of the efficacy of the treatments. I’ve already (carefully) explained to her why I don’t believe in this stuff, she’s still happy to pay me to fix it anyway, but my conscience is forever screaming “Fuck that”.What else have you got? Should I just move? Buy a franchise?”

author: Mr.B
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 16, 2020, 03:57:14 am
content: If your conscience is forever screaming “Fuck that”…I would politely decline to repair the equipment and use some lame excuse like:“Sorry, but the equipment is electronically and medically beyond my capability. You need to find someone else more skilled than me.”

author: Cyberdragon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 16, 2020, 04:02:56 am
content: Take some advice from Guitologist...

author: David Aurora
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 16, 2020, 04:05:05 am
content: My reason for not going down that path is that it further instils the idea that this garbage is legitimate/high tech/worth the money. So even if I turn it down that way, the customer will be willing to spend big bucks on repair with someone less ethical or even pay full replacement cost because a tech she trusts said it was so complex

author: David Aurora
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 16, 2020, 04:06:47 am
content: Quote from: Cyberdragon on April 16, 2020, 04:02:56 amIf there’s one person I’ll never take tech advice from it’s that dude, haha. Watching him bumble around inside amps is like watching a monkey try to fuck a football. I’ve watched a few vids of his and had to rage quit to avoid an aneurysm

author: Mr.B
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 16, 2020, 04:24:32 am
content: Quote from: David Aurora on April 16, 2020, 04:05:05 amIt appears that you have attempted numerous times to "educate" her.Clearly she cannot be educated.So, unless you turn her away with any excuse you care to use, she will keep coming back.And your blood pressure will keep increasing...

author: David Aurora
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 16, 2020, 04:34:37 am
content: Quote from: Mr.B on April 16, 2020, 04:24:32 amThat is a fair point!

author: daqq
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 16, 2020, 09:15:12 am
content: No advice for you, sorry.Rant:This is exactly the reason why I absolutely fucking hate bullshit peddlers* with passion burning like a thousand Suns. Not only are they actively causing harm by pretending their BS devices do good, they actively prevent actual good people from doing good, both by stealing their resources and by stealing their time. They are harming manufacturers and customers by spreading bullshit claims.In one topic where audiophile bullshit (cables for 10k USD/meter) were discussed, someone asked whether it's really worth it to beat a dead horse. This isexactlywhy I believe that it's important to not only beat the dead horse, it's necessary to pummel it into a fine dust and burn the fucking dust and dissolve the ashes in acid. So that when someone does any kind of search on the woo-woo devices, they'll see that it's a fraud.And while audiophiles are not really harmed, I'm pretty sure that a 10kUSD cable peddler is exactly the sort of person who'd sell a fake autism therapy device.* - the people who designed and sold the "therapy devices", not the poor woman in the story, she sounds like an absolute saint, albeit severely misguided.

author: David Aurora
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 16, 2020, 09:55:29 am
content: Quote from: daqq on April 16, 2020, 09:15:12 amThe bit in red is precisely why I've been wondering about ways to raise this to relevant medical authorities without dropping the poor therapist herself in it. These companies need to go down, hard.

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 16, 2020, 10:33:47 am
content: Your customer believes in those esoteric blinkenlights, it's similar to a religion. So it's better to tolerate her belief and not to try to convince her that she's believing in the wrong thing. Otherwise it would be a waste of time and nothing good would come out of it. It's not easy to push the urge to educate aside, but you'll learn it. If you keep repairing her blinkenlights you make her happy and also earn some money. Classic win-win situation. I know how you feel, I have an aunt who loves her esoteric blinkenlights.

author: Haenk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 16, 2020, 11:53:21 am
content: I'd say: Relax. You won't alter her firm belief in this stuff - but it might help her providing some (spiritual/mental) help to others, were all help is otherwise lost or impossible.You can compare it to homoepathic treatment - it's scientifically proven BS, still it's being covered by most of the german health insurances. The benefit is in the treatment itself, aka "caring", so rather a mental thing. And it is probably more cost effective than supplying full medical services and might be a "good enough" therapy for a lot of cases.As long as she does not rip off her clients, I'd help her out. (And: You will stop the money flowing towards the fraudulent "manufacturers" for replacement "machines"...)

author: digsys
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 16, 2020, 01:02:40 pm
content: Having been involved in a way less unscrupulous and less entangled (and definitely less colourful :-) ) incidents many years ago, and coming across many others in that time, I make the following to cautions -You don't want your reputation getting around in that "community" that you are the go-to guy / expert / "believer" ! Having stuff like that stuck to you, irrespective on how small / irrelevant the "group" is, may not be good in your future. You can't control what people say / spread around.When the "scammers', who make that shit, find out that you are "servicing" their gear, and they're losing NEW sales, it may elicit a possible bad "reputation". I have run into this scenario many times, and that is with poorly made cr@p that sort of worked, but was cheaply built etc etc and seriously over-priced. The HIQ audio game was the most common. Even had MANY death threats in long ago years past ... but I was younger and didn't give a rats :-) oddly enough, I got off on them :-)Not trying to scare you, or anything like that, just passing on cautions.

author: Andy Watson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 16, 2020, 01:57:22 pm
content: QuoteGlad it's not just me that's wound-up by his vids. I'm surprised he has any customers left. But that's the thing about woo-pedlars - it's all about talking-the-talk even if your only walk is a duck.

author: Cyberdragon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 16, 2020, 03:53:38 pm
content: At least he's not Carlson who peddles cap shotgunning for relatively modern solid-state gear with ICs and touts his super secret voodoo circuits you have to pay to see...even though we've discussed here before they aren't that special.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 16, 2020, 04:52:39 pm
content: As much as BS like this bugs me...Some people are just determined to part with their money, if they don't give it to you they'll give it to someone else. If it were me, I'd just repair the equipment and charge a reasonable price for doing so. You already told her it's BS, that's the end of your moral obligation. Look at it this way, the more of these things you repair, the less money she's going to send to the scammers selling new ones.Also the placebo effect is real, if people believe the quackery will help them then chances are they will feel better after being "treated". As long as they're not doing it in lieu of real treatment for actual serious physical health conditions I think there's little real harm done.

author: MrMobodies
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 16, 2020, 06:37:44 pm
content: They do have education about their stuff on certain parts of their website that maybe useful to them:https://biocharger.com/product-specs/Quotehttps://biocharger.com/QuoteThefreedictionaryQuoteSo they could do without it.Edit:I was thinking how to educate these sorts of people who are nice but have been taken in. Do you have them there in front whilst repairing the unit? Explaining what components are in there, what they do when connected up, what needs to be replaced and let them question the magical woowoo themselves later on when they begin to remember the things you say during the repair in relation to the effect it is suppose to give.That circuit goes off to that laser which shines a light and at this frequency etc.But when it involves lasers that's another matter.

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 16, 2020, 06:50:42 pm
content: If nothing else, you can hold it in your hands, look it over, and proclaim with utmost confidence that it is presently performing at full specifications. In your hands, right now. Unplugged. Hand it back and don't bother with an invoice for a "quick look".I suppose even that won't be enough, as you might accidentally gain a shamanistic reputation for fixing these nonsense things without tools and yet they work perfectly---I suppose you're getting close to that point already, in which case, yeah, a... firmer approach is necessary.I might add -- you have the perfect name, I have to say. You got into the wrong business, I suppose.Tim

author: Yansi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 16, 2020, 07:09:32 pm
content: Quote from: David Aurora on April 16, 2020, 04:06:47 amLol, I've just wanted to write the same. He is almost clueless.

author: MrMobodies
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 16, 2020, 08:03:20 pm
content: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/10/chef-pete-evans-criticised-for-trying-to-sell-15000-light-device-to-fight-coronavirusQuoteJust found that he is under investigation now:https://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/health/health-problems/coronavirus-tga-investigating-15000-product-pete-evans-claims-fights-covid19/news-story/0a8a29bba13dbc3d9eedf0ac7d7592d8Quotehttps://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8206893/Celebrity-chef-Pete-Evans-claims-15-000-lamps-treat-Wuhan-virus-light-recipes.htmlNow I can see why it looks like A blender because it was designed by a chef.The website testimonials with the pictures are FAKE.Just do an image lookup and they have been around for many years.https://biocharger.com/blog/persona/athletic-performance/See attached pictures.

author: SpecialK
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 16, 2020, 11:32:01 pm
content: I think the solution is simple. Make sure your invoices list your company's name as a subsidiary of "Big Pharma".

author: julianhigginson
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2020, 12:03:32 am
content: A parent of another kid at my kids school was diagnosed with untreatable cancer the other year, and ended up buying some RF tube amp and a modulation source to drive it into a gas discharge tube... Cost a lot of money and came from a seller in the usa.... Anyway, it broke. But at least it was actually doing (when it worked) what it claimed to be doing.. and as far as price vs build and component costs go, it wasn't just 10c of parts, and was reasonably constructed at least.. even if not very reliable..I ended up helping to fix it twice (actually posted some questions in here about it) for free...The way I saw it, using this thing was giving her some feeling of control over her condition, where in the official medical system she had none, and was given no hope at all.I really hate the people making and selling crap like this, but not the people trying to use it. It's not hard to see why they would grab onto anything that gives them hope... And we do seem to see positive outcomes from the placebo effect. So even the ethics around supplying it aren't 100% black and white. (As long as it's never marketed as a replacement for what could otherwise be successful conventional therapy..)Anyway. Yeah. Health woo electronics are a whole basket of weirdness, and the health realities you get exposed to when looking into them are often massively sad. At the end of the day, as a person in business you have to do what's consistent with your feeling of what's right and wrong. Good luck!

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2020, 12:11:06 am
content: Quote from: julianhigginson on April 17, 2020, 12:03:32 amYes the placebo effect is quite real, and if the cancer was truly incurable then there is little issue. The cases where it is a problem is when someone uses some woo-woo gadget in lieu of actual effective treatment.The mother of a long time friend of mine died a few years ago of a treatable cancer. Her religion (Christian scientist?) doesn't believe in medical care. He has a dark sense of humor and remarked a couple years later "Yeah my mom didn't believe in metastasizing breast cancer, but apparently the coroner did." I suppose some people are gonna do what they're gonna do.

author: Whales
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2020, 12:20:15 am
content: I'm sorry David, I don't know what I'd do either.

author: julianhigginson
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2020, 01:21:55 am
content: Quote from: james_s on April 17, 2020, 12:11:06 amabsolutely... pushing things in place of what could be real and effective life saving treatment should really be a criminal offence.. it's basically encouraging someone to commit suicide in a convoluted way...

author: julianhigginson
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2020, 01:25:38 am
content: As for pete evans' latest woo, the nicest thing I can say about it is at least it's not intrinsically harmful itself, unlike that time he went to write a paleo cookbook with recipes for kids and completely out of this world recommendations for what parents should feed babies.https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2015/mar/12/pete-evans-paleo-for-kids-cookbook-put-on-hold-amid-health-concernsfrom memory this cookbook was printed but not distributed before the issues were found, and the entire print run had to be pulped..

author: David Aurora
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 18, 2020, 01:22:15 am
content: Quote from: digsys on April 16, 2020, 01:02:40 pmOn more than one occasion I've put the manufacturer on blast when I've confirmed dickishness on their part, now you've got me paranoid I might open my mail and find a negatively charged crystal

author: David Aurora
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 18, 2020, 01:26:35 am
content: Quote from: Cyberdragon on April 16, 2020, 03:53:38 pmI really don't get the Carlson hate I see on forumsI've always liked his vids, and when he started doing the Patreon thing I was happy to throw a buck or two a month in there to see what's going on. It's been a while since anything in there was up my alley, but hey, it's less than a cup of coffee and the dude pumps an enormous amount of time into high quality content so I'm happy to support it. I've definitely had a few lightbulb moments watching his vids over the years

author: El Rubio
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 18, 2020, 01:37:55 am
content: 10 bucks says the lady with the “There’s a full blown, Pete Evans level bullshit, LED covered, LASER firing shit show paddle thing with a built in piezo blasting “frequencies” smells like patchouli.

author: Shock
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 18, 2020, 02:18:22 am
content: To prevent her from returning just start overcharging for "complicated" repairs. If she still accepts it no matter what take the extra money and buy an E-meter and align your thetan carrier waves or get drunk.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 18, 2020, 02:58:10 am
content: Quote from: David Aurora on April 18, 2020, 01:26:35 amThere's always gonna be someone hating on anyone who has achieved some degree of success, there's gotta be people hating on Dave on some forum somewhere.I've learned quite a bit from the Carlson videos too. I built a couple of his TDR gadgets, I didn't have the design files but the schematic was shown in the video so I laid out a board myself, it's been a really handy accessory for my scope.

author: Cyberdragon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 18, 2020, 03:23:26 am
content: Quote from: james_s on April 18, 2020, 02:58:10 amHe's smart and educational, especially when it comes to tube stuff, but there's a point when he's just an absolute snob every once in a while.I mean who else here is would disassemble that entire solid state receiver just to replace every single electrolytic...because reasons (not specified).

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 18, 2020, 05:46:26 am
content: Quote from: Cyberdragon on April 18, 2020, 03:23:26 amI suspect it's largely down to his expertise with tube stuff. When I work on tube gear I normally replace all of the electrolytic and wax paper capacitors because they almost always are bad. With solid state stuff that's much less often the case but I can see how someone who has mostly worked on tube gear would be in the habit.

author: Haenk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 18, 2020, 07:18:30 am
content: Quote from: Cyberdragon on April 18, 2020, 03:23:26 amIt's rather a way of making sure it will run for another 20 years without having to debug it over and over again with a rising rate of failure on the parts. Just replacing all of the parts at once is less time consuming, considering how much time it takes jsut to disassemble and reassemble a complex unit. Imagine doing that every other year, just because one of the 10 cent caps dried up a bit too much. Of course that would only make sense for valuable items or items you want to Keep in service.(And I guess you do something similar to your car, too - even if the oil or spark plugs still are technically "good enough for now", they do get replaced on a regular base…)

author: CCitizenTO
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 18, 2020, 06:29:48 pm
content: Meh... I'll be honest if the sum of the repair is the blinking LED has broken off and/or the wire to it came loose because some dumbass didn't solder it properly. Just solder the wire back into place and tell them it's fixed and charge them like $10 or something.