Flux Pen for beginner ? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / beginners

author: JanJansen
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2017, 02:34:47 pm
content: Hi, i have 10 parts that are SOP package, i also ordered 10 converters from ebay,Now i was looking in youtube, they use flux or a flux pen, then i see the warnings on the pen.Hazard statementsSafety instructionsP210Keep away from heat, hot surfaces, sparks, open flames and other ignition sources. No smoking.P233Keep container tightly closed.P261Avoid breathing dust/fume/gas/mist/vapours/spray.P280Wear protective gloves/protective clothing/eye protection/face protection.P313Get medical advice/attention.P337If eye irritation persists: see safety data sheet.P403Store in a well-ventilated place.Do i really need this to solder the SOP package ?, glad its no SSOP btw ( o no, SOP packages are being faded out of production ).What do you suggest instead ?,i also saw these DIY flux on youtube, they mix rasin or arabic gum with alcohol.How can they say : P210Keep away from heat, hot surfaces, sparks, open flames and other ignition sources. No smoking.while i have a hot soldering iron in the other hand ?P403Store in a well-ventilated place.Should i lay it on the roof ?, i have no real laboratory with air cleaning or i dont know what they want.P280Wear protective gloves/protective clothing/eye protection/face protection.Are you serious ?, those people in youtube dont even has that.What can go wrong with these pens ?I rather solder without.You use that pen ?thanks

author: agehall
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2017, 02:50:04 pm
content: Quote from: JanJansen on August 05, 2017, 02:34:47 pmYou don't need flux pens, but you'll want flux of some sort.Quote from: JanJansen on August 05, 2017, 02:34:47 pmStay away from home-made crap. Just buy whatever you can get your hands on - any flux is better than no flux.Quote from: JanJansen on August 05, 2017, 02:34:47 pmI'm pretty sure the warning mostly relates to open flames and ignition sources.Quote from: JanJansen on August 05, 2017, 02:34:47 pmNo, just be aware that there are vapours coming off the pen when you use it. Sitting in a confined space with no ventilation all day long while soldering is not a good idea.Quote from: JanJansen on August 05, 2017, 02:34:47 pmAre you serious!? Tons of people, including me use protective gear when soldering. I always wear gloves nowadays, especially since I often work with leaded solder.Quote from: JanJansen on August 05, 2017, 02:34:47 pmUnless you act like a total d**k when using them, not a whole lot.Quote from: JanJansen on August 05, 2017, 02:34:47 pmHave you ever compared soldering with and without flux? I would never want to solder anything without flux if I have an option to use it.

author: R005T3r
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2017, 02:57:47 pm
content: Actually, flux pens are very useful tools for hand soldering, because when you start using flux pens, you won't go back, since it improves your soldering results drammatically. Not to mention that SMD soldering would very tricky whitout flux.All the hazardous statements are made to discourage pepole to use them whitout proper fume extraction system because flux burns and it makes smoke (actually, when ever you put some solder on the tip of your iron, you get some smoke. That smoke is the flux contained into the wire). In my opinion, if you have a fume extractor (don't have to be professional, a PC fan whit some carbon filters or something like that will be enought) you are good to go.Also, remember to clean your soldering bench when you finish soldering. useless to say but don't eat on your soldering bench/room.... Another tip to avoid fumes exposure would be keeping the fan closest possible to soldering area and remember that your face should NEVER be reached by fumes. You need to do something like this, to put it simple:Home-made fluxes can be done, but the results are poor. Tried by myself.

author: JanJansen
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2017, 03:30:17 pm
content: Quote from: agehall on August 05, 2017, 02:50:04 pmI also use leaded solder, i do wash my hands, is that not enough ?Also where do you store such a pen in a well ventilated area ?And thanks Rooster, i will look for such a fume extractor system,i noted these pens also state you cannot use it near electrical gear ?, hmz.Ok, so no DIY flux then.Suppose i try with using alcohol only ?, let me guess : no good.

author: Nusa
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2017, 03:35:17 pm
content: Flux makes life easier. It doesn't have to be in pen form, however. Syringes work fine too.DIY fluxes if done right do work ok...it's just more trouble than it's worth to save a couple bucks.

author: Tony_G
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2017, 03:40:48 pm
content: Flux removes the oxidation from what you're soldering. You should always use it.Personally I like the MG Chemicals 835:http://www.mgchemicals.com/products/prototyping-and-circuit-repair/pens/rosin-flux-835-pI also use a Hakko FA-400:http://www.hakko.com/english/products/hakko_fa400.htmlBut many people use the type R005 showed in the image.

author: helius
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2017, 04:25:34 pm
content: The advice to use personal protective equipment is because flux is a sensitizer and some users in production environments (40H/week) develop chemical sensitivity or allergy to it. I have not heard any stories of this happening to hobbyists. So you do notneedto use gloves to handle flux, it is simply cover-your-ass for when you allow employees at assembly plant to not use gloves and then they sue for work related disability.You should not inhale flux smoke, but many people for decades have used the technique of holding their breath until the smoke is away. In a large space with drafts or good ventilation, smoke extraction equipment is not a necessity. In a production environment with many workers in the same room, itisneeded.

author: agehall
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2017, 04:45:23 pm
content: Quote from: JanJansen on August 05, 2017, 03:30:17 pmI don't want to touch lead if I don't have to. Do you? Quite honestly, since you seem to have made so much research into a topic most of us couldn't care less about (hazard of using flux pens), I'm surprised you don't know the hazards of lead and soldering in general.Quote from: JanJansen on August 05, 2017, 03:30:17 pmI keep them in a cup on my workbench, along with other, normal pens. As long as the cap is put on properly, there will be no fumes leaking from the pens.Quote from: JanJansen on August 05, 2017, 03:30:17 pmDo you even know what flux is there for!? Alcohol is quite the opposite of flux!

author: R005T3r
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2017, 07:30:39 pm
content: Quote from: helius on August 05, 2017, 04:25:34 pmYou get sensible to contaminants, especially if you have a predisposition to atshma in this case (which I have). Unforntunetely, exposure time don't quite play a significative role in sensitization because when you are exposed by let's say 60 seconds, you are exposed to a determinate concentration of contaminants and you start by developing a rash or some alike symptoms in the next 2-3 minutes. You are referring to contaminant's accumulation over time.Sensitization cures by itself: if you get sensitized to a substance there's nothing to do, you have to go away from the contaminants and in time it goes away. If a certain exposure concentration threshold is met, you won't be able to tell if you are exposed to that precise concentration or not next time you are in the working envoirment (that's why it's called sensitization)As for wearing gloves during soldering, it's at your discretion, but if you don't you just have to wash your hands and you are good to go. If you can make a shower, it's even better (because hairs can adsorb particles too!)Holding your breath until the fume is away is not really something you should do, because you pollute your working envoirment and you are going to contaminate yourself (and sensitizing yourself) inevitably and building up contaminants on your skin, clothes etc.... Fumes of all kind have to be extracted (carried away into another place) or you should wear a gas mask.As for the lead factor during soldering: it's not really an issue because lead fumes forms at it's boiling point which is 1.749 °C (3180 °F) and you are not supposed to reach those temperatures!

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2017, 08:04:27 pm
content: I don't think anybody answered this question in the original post:Quote from: JanJansen on August 05, 2017, 02:34:47 pmI am not 100% sure what package you refer to. I assume you mean SOIC, i.e. 1.27mm pin pitch? In that case, my answer would be "no -- additional flux isnotneeded". Use a regular soldering iron tip (small chisel or pen style), and thin solder so you can dose it properly. Then solder like this:

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2017, 09:33:48 pm
content: Your solderwire has flux in it, too.If you solder things, you can't avoid using flux.Personally, I think you could find the same warnings on any type of flux.Use a local fume extractor or fan, if possible. Pushing the smoke away where it can cool off and disperse is much better than letting it waft straight up into your face.

author: NivagSwerdna
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2017, 10:43:36 pm
content: I use something likehttp://uk.farnell.com/circuitworks/cw8200/dispensing-pen-rosin-flux/dp/130709It's very useful when you have small pitch components.... definitely useful for getting rid of bridges.I clean with IsoPropyl afterwards as there is some residue left behind.(I've also got some flux gel but not got around to using it yet)

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2017, 11:26:04 pm
content: Quote from: NivagSwerdna on August 05, 2017, 10:43:36 pmI use these , and refill them with liquid flux until the tip disintegrates.The only precaution I ever take is if I'm doing a big lot of production soldering, I have a fan blowing across the bench.There is no issue handling leaded solder. Metallic lead is extremely unreactive.Overall it is less healthy to use unleaded solder, as the flux vapours tend to be more irritating.

author: agehall
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2017, 08:24:05 am
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on August 05, 2017, 11:26:04 pmI think the theory is that you can get lead particles on your hands and unless you wash carefully afterwards, you can transfer those onto food and eventually ingest it (which is bad).

author: JanJansen
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2017, 02:41:05 pm
content: Quote from: ebastler on August 05, 2017, 08:04:27 pmThank you, i will try like this.I like the idea of a fume extractor,after its used where do you store it ?, dont the bad parts fall out, or you throw away the filter after usage ?If the filter is not good anymore the bad parts will come out back.

author: Wim_L
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2017, 04:19:43 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on August 05, 2017, 11:26:04 pmIn theory, yes. lead-free solder needs a more aggressive flux, so that's what they put in the solder.But if you're getting extra flux, many separate fluxes are now for the lead-free type anyway, as that's where the big volume is. So many of those flux bottles you find these days, even for use with tin-lead solder, are going to be the stronger, less healthy stuff (not that smoke from traditional RMA flux was healthy, but some of the new stuff is worse, and you can often notice a sharp acidic smell).

author: mikeys
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2017, 11:31:32 pm
content: P210Keep away from heat, hot surfaces, sparks, open flames and other ignition sources. No smoking.P233Keep container tightly closed.P261Avoid breathing dust/fume/gas/mist/vapours/spray.P280Wear protective gloves/protective clothing/eye protection/face protection.I have my soldering setup in the conservatory. Don't ask. I've had a flux pen out there I left in the sun for a while and apart from leaking a bit, there's nothing wrong with it. What I use for fume extraction is a desk fan to suck the stuff away from my nose and towards the window/door.It's not as scary as it sounds, there's probably similar stuff on a bottle of household bleach. Just don't eat it or stick it in a bong and you'll be fine.

author: JanJansen
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2017, 02:14:15 pm
content: I soldered the 14pin DAC ( WM8521CH9GED ) to the DIP converter without flux,the soldering gives some water like flood between pins ( it comes out the stannol ), what is that ?, i think it can short-circuit.Normally i scratch all garbage away with my experiment boards, now its to small.

author: agehall
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2017, 02:43:04 pm
content: Can you provide pictures? I'm not sure if we are talking about solder bridges or flux residue here...

author: JanJansen
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2017, 03:09:50 pm
content: I attatched a foto.Suppose i go measure the pins, cant i blow the DAC up with the voltage coming from the multimeter ?

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2017, 03:55:20 pm
content: That's just the flux (resin) from the solder's core. It is non-conductive. You can clean it off with Ethanol (or similar solvents) if your prefer, but it will not affect the circuit's function.

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 11, 2017, 09:25:51 am
content: The resin is beneficial in the case you don't want to wash the board.Flux works because it contains an acid which dissolves copper and tin oxides. But the acid and copper salts leftover will be conductive and acidic when exposed to water/humidity, and this could, indeed, cause problems on your board. The resin is there to encapsulate these salts in a waterproof clump. Some resins do double duty; when heated and/or dissolved in solvent, they are the main active acid. Such is the case with natural rosin flux (abeitic acid). But in many cases, there are stronger acids in the mix, too.In certain "low solids" no clean fluxes, there are very little of these resins added for both esthetic appearance and so that test pads and connectors don't get obscured. The residue will be very slightly conductive, so they are truly designed to be used sparingly, in a controlled manner... as constituent of a solder paste or solderwire, for instance, to be used on very clean board/pads. Too much flux will cause a problem. If you are using such a flux for manual soldering/rework where you might slather liquid flux onto a board, that's fine, too, but depending on the application you may have to clean the board, after.Hi solids and resin flux residue should be cleaned off high heat areas of the board, though. If left on a power transistor/regulator or the like, they are going to be acidic/conductive at high enough temp.

author: tablatronix
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 11, 2017, 01:39:59 pm
content: I bought one of these cheaposBeen happy with it so farhttps://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B008OC3VMU/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o04_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1Never used flux before, It makes life so much easier, plus It helps with old protoboards and using up older solder with bad flux , i use it all the time now, just so I don't have to fight with a single connection for more than a second if its not wicking, Its like cheese just put it on everything first.This says RMA flux, I always clean anyway, but you might want something else that is really forgiving about leaving it on.

author: JanJansen
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 11, 2017, 04:18:23 pm
content: So you clean the flux with Ethanol also ?

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 11, 2017, 04:44:53 pm
content: FWIW, I use liquid RA or RMA in aBonkote BON-102* refillable brush pen **. Plenty of other methods to dispense it though, such as a brush bottle or nail polish bottle (brush is attached to the cap), needle bottle, or even dip an inexpensive artist brush in a small cup/bowl. Not only does it cost less, but it has more control than a disposable pen (or even refillableCW7000pens).MG Chemicals sells their 835 RA flux in hobbyist friendly sizes (100ml& 1L), and is available in the EU. This can be left on the boards in most cases if you wish.* Bonkote only sells them in 5 packs, but some vendors will break them apart & sell individuals (~$15 for a single in the US).** You can find counterfeit BON-102 pens on ebay.nl; the valve/guts may not work on these, but it's still usable even if you have to remove the them (just store it upright).

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 11, 2017, 04:57:00 pm
content: Quote from: JanJansen on August 11, 2017, 04:18:23 pmYes.Denatured alcohol/methylated spirits is usually ethanol with an additive to make it taste bad. Some manufacturers add methanol which also works (Kleen Strip brand found in the US is one example). For stubborn deposits, you can add a more aggressive solvent such as xylene or acetone, or even use it straight (be aware acetone has a habit of solving plastics, so use with caution). As per sources, you can find this stuff in paint stores or paint departments in big home improvement stores (environmental regulations may prevent some of it from being available without a special license/permit; methyl-ethyl ketone/MEK is more heavily regulated in the EU IIRC).

author: Nuno_pt
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 11, 2017, 06:06:37 pm
content: Other place to get MG Chemicals 835 is from ePay (eio-electronicinvetoryonline) it's a little cheaper that the one from Circuit Specialists, in terms of total price ( 835 + shipping).Other place to buy flux; solder wire; and solder paste, but from Kester is CML Supply from it's store outside of ePay, since it's ePay store doesn't ship internationally.

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 11, 2017, 10:32:56 pm
content: FWIW, Kester only sells small quantities of liquid flux in disposable pens. They do offer their RF471 tacky/gel flux in a 30g syringe however (no plunger), which some prefer to a liquid when drag soldering.I didn't know CML shipped internationally though.

author: Nuno_pt
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 12, 2017, 12:13:47 pm
content: Quote from: nanofrog on August 11, 2017, 10:32:56 pmCML Supply split's them and sell in small quantities.Quote from: nanofrog on August 11, 2017, 10:32:56 pmYou've to go at there store outside of ePay (www.cmlsupply.com) to buy things if you're outside of US, they will ship internationally.I'm waiting to get home from vacations to place an order of Kester products from them, Flux 186 and RF741; Solder Paste EP256; and some Kester 44 (66 core) .020" or .025".

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 12, 2017, 03:30:06 pm
content: Quote from: Nuno_pt on August 12, 2017, 12:13:47 pmI knew about their own site & that they split things down into smaller packages suited to hobbyists and small repair shops (i.e. fixing cell phones). The 150g jar of EP256 and 2 oz. bottles of 186, 959, & 959T are new to me though, so thanks for the update (good news for me).Shame they don't offer 1544 though (I get it from Skycraft when I take trips to Florida), as I like it better than MG Chemicals' 835 RA (which is still good flux).eBay's international shipping rates tend to be high (suspect it causes lost sales), so it's no wonder they don't offer it through that particular outlet.Edit: Fixed MG Chemicals' P/N (seems I washam-fisted with fingers of butter* again). * Courtesy of Jeremy Clarkson.

author: Nuno_pt
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 12, 2017, 05:26:38 pm
content: nanofrog, it's really a shame that they don't offer 1544 RA flux, I can't find it anywhere even on ePay; so the MG Chemicals 835 will have to do.I still have to find a store that sell's Soder-Wick or Chem-Wick and ship's them internationally, Farnell carries them but they must come from US and they want 18€ for each delivery.

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 12, 2017, 07:52:22 pm
content: Quote from: Nuno_pt on August 12, 2017, 05:26:38 pmPerhaps we should send emails requesting they carry it (and get others to do the same).May not help, but it can't hurt.BTW for anyone that may be interested, Kester 1544 is the liquid version of the RA flux used in Kester 44 solder wire.Regarding Farnell shipping US stock to the UK/EU, they charge $20 for the reverse; so UK/EU members aren't being singled out. At least it's a flat rate, so making as big an order as possible, even if you need to do some sort of group buy (one person break it up & reship to UK/EU addresses), would be worth it IMHO.Also, you might want to consider re-shipping companies when the above suggestions aren't possible.

author: Nuno_pt
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2017, 10:36:57 am
content: Quote from: nanofrog on August 12, 2017, 07:52:22 pmWhen I place my order I'll send them a email asking is it's possible in the future to offer the 1544 RA from Kester, and perhaps some Soder-Wick or Chem-Wick also, let's see what they will say.But would be a good start for people here to ask them if would be possible to carry the 1544 RA, the more the better.Quote from: nanofrog on August 12, 2017, 07:52:22 pmThanks for the update.Quote from: nanofrog on August 12, 2017, 07:52:22 pmI've to order some things from Farnell so maybe I'll add the Soder-Wick or Chem-Wick. (not sure yet witch way I'll go)Quote from: nanofrog on August 12, 2017, 07:52:22 pmThat is an option also, another one would be if someone in US buy the Wick, and put them on a bubble envelope and sent it to this side of the pond, it should not weight to much.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2017, 10:50:24 am
content: FYI, I don't think the Chemtronics (Soder-Wick/Chem-Wick) are as good as the MG Chemicals solder wicks, which are cheaper, and which amazon.com will ship from USA at reasonable cost, with customs already paid for.I posted about these wicks here:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/beginners/desoldering-advice-please-removing-dip-ic's-without-damage/msg833426/#msg833426

author: Nuno_pt
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2017, 11:45:13 am
content: I just found that Burklin in Germany carries Chemtronic Soder-Wick/Chem-Wick, see here:https://www.buerklin.com/en/search?text=chemtronicswith some good prices in shipment to EU.But they don't carry anything from Kester or MG Chemicals.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2017, 12:27:32 pm
content: As I said already, amazon.com will ship it from USA at very reasonable cost.

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2017, 04:44:19 pm
content: Regarding quality desolder wick/braid, why not go for Loctite brand?It's really good stuff, and is more readily available in the UK/EU.Not sure about pricing vs. MG Chemicals or Chemtronics, but worth a look.