Choosing a CRO: Hitachi V-222 or TEK 465 - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / beginners

author: reese69
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: April 06, 2023, 01:08:52 am
content: Hi everyone, Thank you for your collective knowledge. I am just starting out. I plan to tinker mostly with audio gear. Eventually I will probably get a digital oscilloscope, probably an SDS1104X-E. But for now I’d like to get a CRO to practice on before spending that much cash. I am interested in two scopes that are listed on ebay locally.One is a Hitachi V-222, listed as being in excellent working condition, with probes and power cable. It is listed as bidding starting at $100.00, with no bids so far. The other is a Tektronix 465, listed as parts only, with two probes. The pictures of the TEK show only two horizontal traces and seller says no further testing done. A sticker on the back is barely legible, but seems to say “Calibration: Standoff ___ ___ Broken.” It is listed for $195, but the seller has offered it to me for $160.I am leaning toward the Hitachi. I know it is a much less capable scope, being only 20 MHz. But it seems to be well regarded on this forum. I see that the TEK is very highly regarded here and is a much more powerful instrument. But I am concerned that it will have problems that I am not equipped to handle. I’d appreciate anyone’s thoughts. Thank you!

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 06, 2023, 01:28:45 am
content: The Hitachi is an excellent analog scope, Smaller, lighter, simpler, newer, so I'd go with that.A "powerful" analog scope isn't much extra benefit these days, best to just get a cheap simple analog scope to begin with and then move to digital later. 20MHz is plenty useful.Yes, the Tek's are fairly notrious for having issues, and given that it's older than the hitachi, there is way more chance the Hitachi works without issues.This is $99 make an offer:https://www.ebay.com/itm/144934850376?epid=1604087493

author: jonpaul
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2023, 01:34:28 am
content: avoid 465, 475, all the HV transformers and multipliers fail eventuallyAvoid buying or shipped any analog CRO scopes especially on epay, most arrived,damage controls, dead CRT.Look at local Craigslist list, or Ham Radio FleasJon

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 06, 2023, 01:37:34 am
content: This GW looks like good value at $150, 100MHz with cursors readout.https://www.ebay.com/itm/133331384514

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 06, 2023, 03:02:32 am
content: The 2225 is an excellent scope too, $99, but I still think the GW Instek is better bang-per-buck.https://www.ebay.com/itm/295508480572

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2023, 03:37:47 am
content: Quote from: reese69 on April 06, 2023, 01:08:52 amI used to repair and sell scopes for a while and I got one of those Hitachi V222 models on a trade-in deal for a Tek 2235. It actually is not a bad starter scope and I eventually sold it to someone who wanted it for audio repairs (non-RF) as well. It wasn't difficult to repair and it has a linear power supply, so it is also pretty easy to understand and work on. It has one unique feature, a large DC offset for CH1 that allows you to look at power rails and such without using AC coupling. It also has Z-axis (blanking) for vector graphics and an 'alt mag' feature that is like a cheap B-sweep (no delay). I sold it for a lot more than what they are asking in your auction, but of course they aren't providing any warranty or service. I'd probably recommend it over your other choices if the 20MHz performance is acceptable.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 06, 2023, 03:58:29 am
content: Just shot an updated $50 scope ebay video, editing now...

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 06, 2023, 05:52:05 am
content: New video on this just for fun:

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2023, 08:11:02 am
content: Quote from: reese69 on April 06, 2023, 01:08:52 amWelcome to the forum.Having come from where your are to now selling some of the best values for money DSO's today I say save your spend a little while longer to get the scope you really want as you'll never be disappointed with it and it's far more scope to grow into than a CRO can ever be !Been there done that.Good luck with your choices.

author: reese69
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: April 06, 2023, 05:55:11 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on April 06, 2023, 05:52:05 amHi David, Thanks so much for the video! That, as well as the other comments from this community, are above and beyond the level of feedback I expected to receive. The V-222 in your video is indeed the one I'm looking at. But y'all've given me a lot to consider.I've reached out to the seller of the V-222 to see if I can go look at it. If I can actually put my hands on it and confirm that it works I might still go with it. That way I'll get probes, a manual, and also save on the shipping costs (and the possibility of it getting broken during shipping). But if I can't check it out ahead of time I might consider one of the other scopes in your video or something similar.Again, thanks everyone!-Scott

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2023, 06:27:51 pm
content: Quote from: reese69 on April 06, 2023, 01:08:52 amAny scope is better than no scope, but as with anything you will need to learn how to use it effectively.For a beginner, the three most important things arethe scope is working properly. While repair of some types of scope can be fun and rewarding, a beginner does not have the knowledge to diagnose and fix problemsuse the right class of probe for the measurements you are making. The probe becomes part of the circuit being tested, and affects what is being measured. No, they are not simple bits of wire!you learn how to use the instrument safely. There are things you can do that can damage the circuit, the scope, and you. Never never disconnect a scope's protective mains earthFor hints about probes and safety, seehttps://entertaininghacks.wordpress.com/library-2/scope-probe-reference-material/If looking at audio signals with a digitizing scope, be aware of how the vertical quantization affects your measurements. An 8 bit ADC inherently has more noise than a 12 bit ADC. While that might not be visible in the time domain, if you use the FFT functions to look at the frequency domain, reduced resolution means a higher noise floor and worse harmonics.Have fun, safely.

author: Jwillis
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2023, 06:39:12 pm
content: You won't go wrong with the Hitachi. I haven't used the V-222 but I have two others . The V-1050F and V-650F. The V-1050f I use as my main and prefer it to my DSO in most cases. The V-650f is under repair. But the parts and service manuals are really easy to find. Calibration is so easy and straight forward.For the price both were well worth it.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2023, 06:51:41 pm
content: A "parts only" scope is out of the question. You are likely to need a scope to fix it!About 20 years ago I bought a Tek 485 (350 MHz) off of eBay for about $200 and it still works. I bought a Rigol DS1054Z for the more advanced features even though the bandwidth isn't nearly as high. Sometimes you need features, sometimes you need bandwidth. I don't use the Tek very often.Today, I would buy the Siglent SDS1104X-E. It wasn't available at the time I bought my Rigol. The Siglent is a very nice scope.

author: BillyO
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2023, 07:00:49 pm
content: What, no love for the Tek 465?I'm so sadOne of my favorites and I still have one, still use it and it still works 100%.But everyone is correct so far. A Tek 465 in top shape goes for the price of an entry level DSO ($300+) these days. IF your getting a CRO, get the cheapest working one you can get then move up to a DSO down the road.

author: rdl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2023, 07:56:23 pm
content: I can hear one of those Tek 2225 scopes calling my name.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 06, 2023, 10:08:04 pm
content: Quote from: rdl on April 06, 2023, 07:56:23 pmI'd be surprised if they aren't gone shortly after the video I just released.

author: alm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2023, 10:26:02 pm
content: I'm waiting for the posts to appear stating that it's stupid to buy an analog scope in 2023, because they are junk, and how a $50 digital scope is better than any analog scope

author: donlisms
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2023, 02:24:14 am
content: I suspect most of the bad-mouthing of analog scopes (especially Tektronix!) is from people who've never used one. I'm not ignorant of the digital advantages by any means, but I still prefer a pretty blue trace that's not made of pixels! And fixing power supplies is good exercise.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2023, 03:19:18 am
content: The Tek 465 is a superb scope in working order and the Hitachi scopes I've used are also excellent. All else being equal I'd probably still choose the Tek because I've always been a Tek fan, however in this case it sounds like the Tek is broken and the Hitachi is in good working order. Given both are good scopes I'd go with the working one unless you're looking for a project instead of an instrument to use.

author: reese69
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: April 17, 2023, 09:34:21 pm
content: Hi All, I ended up picking up this Kikusui COS6100M for $70.00 locally. It seems to work. Now I have a lot to learn. Thanks everyone for your help.

author: wasedadoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2023, 09:47:48 pm
content: Quote from: reese69 on April 17, 2023, 09:34:21 pmYou have not made a bad move doing that.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2023, 10:02:08 pm
content: Quote from: jonpaul on April 06, 2023, 01:34:28 amI've heard that before. The 465 was the go to scope in the late 70s, when you wanted something robust and reliable for a few years, and they made excellent (and rather expensive) second hand purchases when 3 or 4 years old. Its interesting to contrast their short to medium term excellent robustness and reliability, with the long term tales of consistent failure mechanisms.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2023, 10:10:43 pm
content: Quote from: reese69 on April 17, 2023, 09:34:21 pmYes, you do! That scope has some pretty advanced and unusual CRO features. It also has an easy to understand and service linear power supply and the manual is available and I recommend you find it if you don't have it already.

author: Wallace Gasiewicz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2023, 10:22:34 pm
content: I have a working Tek 475 200Mhz that I would let go for less than the $160. But shipping is really the problem.I am in Indianapolis IN

author: BillyO
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2023, 10:24:12 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on April 17, 2023, 10:02:08 pmOf course you have. Exactly the same thing can be said for every part of literally everything man has made. It all fails eventually. Even stone axes will fail.The 465 and 475 ( and 485) scopes were pretty state of the art when the arrived. Like anything of that nature they need occasional maintenance and repair. They are still held in high regard today despite being a 53 year old design. And some, like mine are still 100% meeting their specifications. Do you think anyone will give a gnat's fart about a TDS1012B 33 years from now?

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2023, 11:02:53 pm
content: I had a very similar Kikusui scope for a while, I eventually sold it several years ago since I had other scopes and no real need for it. Seemed like a fairly nice instrument though. Kikusui is in the same general class as Tek, HP, Hitachi, etc.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2023, 11:06:05 pm
content: Quote from: BillyO on April 17, 2023, 10:24:12 pmWhat on Earth are you gabbling on about? I responded to something very specific. That these particular models eventually fail in one particularly way. If you had seen the awful things we put them through in the 70s and 80s you might expect it would be something like general fatigue or the usual suspects like electrolytic capacitors that gets them in the end. Yet, even something with no apparent weak links in its first few years turns out to have one very specific one in the long term. I find that interesting.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2023, 11:20:48 pm
content: Quote from: BillyO on April 17, 2023, 10:24:12 pmManydigitisingscopes are so awful their main use is gold recovery. One example is the Tek TDS340 and related abominations, but there are many others. They existed solely because analoguestoragescopes were even worse. That has become less true with theamazingrecent increases in ADC performance.Analoguesamplingscopes, OTOH, continue to have unique and important advantages in some niche applications, e.g. measuring settling times.

author: BillyO
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 18, 2023, 01:23:55 am
content: Quote from: coppice on April 17, 2023, 11:06:05 pmAnd I was generalizing the sentiment.Quote from: coppice on April 17, 2023, 11:06:05 pmLike I said, they were close to cutting edge devices. They employed new technologies that were not yet matured. Evolution of this sort should be expected. In fact, it may have been brought on by the hard use these generally got. They were run until they failed, not replaced every 3 years in favor of newer gizmo loaded units. I don't find it very strange that machines like these eventually fail in specific ways. It's just the sort of thing that ends up happening to machines that are used until they fail.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 18, 2023, 01:28:57 am
content: Quote from: BillyO on April 18, 2023, 01:23:55 amIn those days the amortisation period for capital purchase accounting purposes for new test equipment was at least 5 years. Pretty much every piece of equipment, except probes and accessories, was expected to be in heavy use for at least that long. Normally much longer.

author: BillyO
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 18, 2023, 01:48:43 am
content: Quote from: coppice on April 18, 2023, 01:28:57 amExactly, and in this series of scopes, the engineers and techs using them had no compelling desire to replace them (I was one). Some have been in near continuous use for 51 years. Like the one I was using today. Well, mine was a later model purchased by the company I got it off in 1979 so it's only 44 years old. Perhaps some bugs were ironed out over time.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 18, 2023, 07:44:14 am
content: Quote from: coppice on April 18, 2023, 01:28:57 amNot least because the purchase price for a run-of-the-mill decent scope was probably the same as an engineer's annual salaryStill true

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 20, 2023, 07:31:22 am
content: Quote from: reese69 on April 17, 2023, 09:34:21 pmI think I mentioned that model in my video, an excellent scope! 12 traces IIRC.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 20, 2023, 08:28:39 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on April 18, 2023, 07:44:14 amDon't exaggerate. When the Tek 465 was in its heyday it cost no more than 8 or 9 months of a fresh grad's salary.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 20, 2023, 09:10:03 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on April 20, 2023, 08:28:39 pmComparing the prices I have seen with my salary, my point is certainly in the right ballpark.In the context in which I made the comment (which you snipped), the comparison is useful.