Why no medium priced oscilloscopes ? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: theoldwizard1
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 02, 2019, 04:06:36 pm
content: Admittedly I have been "out of the loop" for a long time ! The first 10-15 years of my career I used a 'scope almost daily. I have not touched one in probably 30 years !As we all know there are some really good low priced scopes on the market these days. There seems to be a huge jump in price from these units to the "professional" model (Tek, etc.)There are some features that also seem to be missing:• True differential input(or maybe I should say isolated ground ?)• >8 bit resolution A/D (10 or maybe 12 seems MUCH better)• >500 MS/sec when all channels are in use(reasonable glitch capture requires about 10 sample per repeating time period)I would think that all of those feature could be added for a $100-$200 dollar. Of course the question always is, will the public pay that ?Comments ?

author: exe
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 02, 2019, 04:33:21 pm
content: Quote from: theoldwizard1 on June 02, 2019, 04:06:36 pmThis one I don't know how much effort to implement. But would love to have this a standard option. I'd want isolated inputs...Quote from: theoldwizard1 on June 02, 2019, 04:06:36 pmI propose to skip 10 and 12bit devices and go for 24bits as it could serve as good 8.5DMM as well. I think the cost of a good frontend and fast 10+bit ADC is prohibitive, that's why only few vendors provide true 10+bits of resolution, and most of them use ASIC.Quote from: theoldwizard1 on June 02, 2019, 04:06:36 pmMost modern scopes are based on jelly-bean 4-channel 1Gs/s ADCs. That's why they are cheap. For two active channels it will provide 500MS/sec. Anything better than that would cost much more due to two factors: economy of scale and cost of development. Most companies figured out how to make 8bit 1GS/s 100MHz-200MHz scopes, there is a lot of competition and prices are very affordable (comparing to what was, say, 5-10 years ago, afaik). Going much beyond that requires a lot of effort and raises cost of BOM sharply.Nonetheless, I hope one day we'll have devices matching performance of, say, rtb2004, but more affordable.UP: what do you call "affordable"? For me it's around $600, for others it's $2000, for others it's below $100... It also seems that people who _really_ need high-performance scopes do have budget for them. So, while we may demand 1+Ghz scopes for the price of dso1054z, do we really need them or it's just TEA?

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 02, 2019, 05:18:28 pm
content: I am not sure what medium priced means to you. For me, medium would be $3,000 to $15,000. Adding a couple hundred wouldn't be a factor.I would rather have the single ended inputs than differential. Say I am wanting to look at 3GHz differential 5V signal.... Then I wan't to look at some diver stage in a 400V SMPS. That's not going to be easy... Consider too that the cost of a differential probe could very well be as much at a medium scope (using my numbers). There are just so many variables.I use a scope because I want to see what things look like. If I need higher resolution than what the scope offers, I am normally using a bench meter or some other sort of dedicated acquisition system.500MS/s, no problem.

author: theoldwizard1
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 02, 2019, 06:14:49 pm
content: Quote from: exe on June 02, 2019, 04:33:21 pmMy expertise WAS in embedded microprocessor systems so I know next to nothing about analog design.But using one of the major distributors online tools, I stumbled across the Analog Devices AD7933. 4 channels, 10 or 12 bits, 1.5 MSPS for LESS THAN $10 !Quote from: exe on June 02, 2019, 04:33:21 pmGood point. For sure, 12 bits, 4 channels @ 500 MSPS, true differential input, under $1000. 2 channels, 10 bits @ 500 MSPS, no differential input, under $600.

author: theoldwizard1
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 02, 2019, 06:26:54 pm
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on June 02, 2019, 05:18:28 pmThat is WAY beyond what I would consider "medium" priced, especially for a non-professional.I don't know what the capabilities of a $10,000+ digital oscilloscope are, but if you are looking at 3GHz signals, I think you will need an analog 'scope !Quote from: joeqsmith on June 02, 2019, 05:18:28 pmObviously !Like I said, my background was in embedded microcontroller system, mostly automotive. We had no "front end" except to maybe clamp high voltages. Early on we choose a 10 bit ADC. Of course it was thrifted down to 8 bit. Then the reference voltage was dropped from 10V to 5V. Not the best situation as the "ambient noise" took up a larger proportion of the total bandwidth.

author: janoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 02, 2019, 06:42:24 pm
content: I think some of the newer Siglent scopes could do what you want, with the exception of the differential/isolated inputs.I would call that a fairly niche feature that would add a lot of costs for no reason if all you want is to poke around an SMPS where a cheap 20MH high voltage differential probe will do the job just fine. If this was built-in, it would have to be on all channels and e.g. 200MHz capable instead. Massive overkill few people would use or pay for in this low end price category.Having a 50 Ohm termination built-in as opposed to the usual 1MOhm is probably going to be more useful for most people than having differential or isolated inputs.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 02, 2019, 07:01:05 pm
content: Quote from: theoldwizard1 on June 02, 2019, 06:26:54 pmI am still not sure what medium priced would mean to you. High end scopes to me is normally $15K to $100K. It's why it is better to provide details rather than use ambiguous terms.I gave away my only analog scope several years ago. I had bought it brand new back in the 80s. HITACHI, something 100MHz 4 channel, with readout. Used a Z80. My first digital scope was an old HP logic analyzer that had two scope channels.You can see three of my old DSOs looking at a 3+ GHz oscillator I cobbled together a while back. The first picture I show is my first real digital scope. It's really old, released in 1989 so 30 years old now. I would hate to think how much of our tax dollars it took to buy one back then. The other two are still pretty old.https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/nice-older-dso-advice/msg2450235/#msg2450235As they age, the prices drop and they get in the range of the home hobbyist. Just depends what you are after.

author: JxR
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 02, 2019, 07:09:18 pm
content: Quote from: theoldwizard1 on June 02, 2019, 06:26:54 pmHonestly, for a mid-tier scope I would say that price range is very conservative. Personally, I would say the mid-tier range is closer to $7k to $30K. Is that expensive, hell yes it is! But, mid-tier pricing and capabilities has nothing to do with our own personal budgets. My scope on sale was around $2.5k (MSRP ~$6k), and it is considered low-end/entry level. Is it a very good entry level scope? Yes, one of the best in my opinion (Rhode & Schwartz RTB2004)."Medium price" is a subjective term, and it is based on an unknown price range that has personal meaning to you, but no one here really knows what that is unless you tell us. You can help the experts (I'm not one of them) here out, by defining your budget.There are scopes with differential inputs, PicoTech makes one specifically for the automotive industry, it starts at ~1.2k.https://www.picotech.com/oscilloscope/4444/picoscope-4444-overview?lvThere are also portable battery powered scopes like those made by MicSig (so no earth reference on battery). These seem popular for automotive applications, and start around ~$600.http://www.micsig.com/html/86.htmlYou can also get active differential probes for any scope, that has already been mentioned. Expect to pay anywhere from ~$150-$2k (or more) depending on what you need.There are also tons of options for older analog scopes on the used market by Tek and others. You can definitely get a great analog scope easily under ~$1k.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 02, 2019, 07:12:25 pm
content: Why do you want more bits?The availability of products like these depends on both demand and the cost of making them. I don't think most users at the low end level (or even most professional and high-end uses) would benefit from more bits. And then you need a front-end and ADC with noise levels low enough to justify more bits--which is not likely for an entry-level DSO. And more processing power, memory, etc etc.As to differential inputs, that is a niche feature that is actually quite costly to implement. Even the lowest-cost Chinese differential probes are well over $100 for one channel. If you think a full-bandwidth 4-channel fully isolated differential front end could be implemented at some low cost, go ahead and make one--you'll be able to sell the interface alone for more than a nice scope. There are already nice handheld units with 4 isolated inputs, although they cost a few thousand dollars........which brings me to the thing you said that surprised me the most. Why, having the experience you describe, do you consider $600 to be a "medium priced" oscilloscope??? What did a "medium price oscilloscope" cost 30 years ago? Entry level models like the DS1054Z absolutely demolish units of similar function from 30 years ago that cost 10 times the price, not even adjusting for inflation. The new MSO5000 series would seem to me to be the very bottom end of "medium priced" (just under $1K and up) and will be a fantastic bargain if they ever get the wrinkles ironed out.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 02, 2019, 07:16:17 pm
content: Arguably the question can apply to medum priced anything.In my first job, alongtime ago a sales representative made the point that he knew how to sell things for £100 and £10000, but not for £1000.£100 was under the corporate radar and sold like consumables from petty cash; he didn't invest personal time in selling it, they just sold.£10000 was a capital purchase requiring management approval, and he could invest time personally demonstrating the widget.£1000 fell between the two stools: to expensive for petty cash, too cheap for him to demo it.

author: ResistorRob
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 02, 2019, 07:36:40 pm
content: I get what you're saying. I've been researching what oscilloscope to buy for over a year now, so I have to completely agree their is a huge hole in middle range area. I commented the same thing over on the Tek 4 Series thread. For $500 you get a really solid scope and sometimes spending $1,000+ will actually buy you less features because you often get a base model that needs more than the original cost for software upgrades to unlock things like serial decoding.I was really excited when the Rigol MSO5000 ($1k) was released but they purposely put in a dim screen that nobody is going to want as to not eat sales away from their 7000 line.I LOVE the Rhode & Schwartz RTB2000 and when it was released they had a promo deal to get all the features unlocked for free. Sadly I didn't have the money at the time, so later on when I had some money I looked into and the price would be at least $2,000 more without the launch special pricing. I heard the rumor about an all in one pricing to get all features unlocked coming out soon. I'm out of work right now, so definitely won't end up on my bench, but I commend R&S for listening to feedback from potential customers.If Rigol or Siglent or anyone really wants to dominate the mid-range scope market (which I define in the $1k-2k range) all they need to do is take their $400-500 scope and add a touchscreen that is responsive with a good UI (and obviously not dim!), 50 ohm, and all the little things that hamper beginner scopes price it at $1,700 with everything included and they would sell like hotcakes.I know on this forum not many people consider $2k mid-range but when you can buy five $400 scopes, or four $500 scopes for the same price that is a significant difference. Imagine applying that same pricing concept to cars... You wouldn't say a car that costs more than 450% as a Toyota Camry still in the same category! I really want that color palette feature from the new Tek scopes in something under $2k... I would grind hard to come up with the cash to buy something like that. A boy can dream, can't he :-)

author: exe
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 02, 2019, 07:53:32 pm
content: Quote from: theoldwizard1 on June 02, 2019, 06:14:49 pmWait a second, it's not the device you want in your oscilloscope. Remember you are asking 500MSPS per channel, I fail to see how a 1.5MSPS devices can be useful in this case. If you need a digitizer, DMM6500, it's a 6.5 digit dmm with a 16bit 1msps digitizer.If 1.5MSPS is enough for you, check Analog Discovery 2 (AD2), it has, among many other features, two differential inputs (14bit, 100MSPS ~30MHz, afaik, check datasheet). I have one and I really love it. A swiss army knife device, one of a kind (okay, may be not, there is ADALM2000, but I don't think it has a good software support as AD2, which crucial).PS most scopes have a "high resolution mode" which also helps sometimes to get 10bits or even more... Works by oversampling, you trade speed for resolution. But it needs enough noise to work. Also there is averaging, that helps sometimes too. I'd say an 8bit adc cannot compete with a true 10+bit adc, but may come close.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 02, 2019, 08:48:53 pm
content: Quote from: theoldwizard1 on June 02, 2019, 04:06:36 pmIf this waseasythere would be quite a range of scopes with isolated channels to choose from.It ain't !To do it properly every I/O needsfullisolation plus there are signal fidelity issues to address too.Even the probes used on an isolated channel scope are NOT some run of the mill basic scope probe in order to give the operator some decent protection.https://store.siglentamerica.com/product/pp830-300-mhz-400-v-oscilloscope-probe-used-shs1000-series-models/For the moment cheap differential probes are the way to go but some are limited for BW.Siglent have an optional ISFE module that gives full isolation for 2 channels at just $135 but it's only 1 MHz BW rated.https://store.siglentamerica.com/product/isfe-isolated-front-end/Don't expect it to fit any scope unless you use BNC cabling as the BNC spacings for the BNC-BNC adapters are different to most other scopes.Recent discussion about ISFE here:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/msg2444670/#msg2444670On the matter of sampling, two 1 GSa/s ADC's as used in the SDS1104X-E does offer 500 MSa/s with all channels active.

author: theoldwizard1
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 02, 2019, 09:43:27 pm
content: Quote from: JxR on June 02, 2019, 07:09:18 pmThat 'scope is GROSSLY over priced ! Over $1200 !! It is based on 15+ year old technology ! Some of the specs:Bandwidth limit 1 MHzUSB 2.0 (which limits the continuous sample rate to 16 MS/s)4 channel sample rate of 100 MS/s256 MS total

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 02, 2019, 10:01:07 pm
content: Quote from: theoldwizard1 on June 02, 2019, 04:06:36 pmDifferential inputs were a rare built in feature even in the past and even then, differential probes were available. Today this feature is provided by differential probes.Using two channels in add and invert mode can work with a modern DSO although usually not as well as an analog oscilloscope because of increased quantization noise. (1) This is one place where increased digitizer resolution would make a significant improvement but most people just use a differential probe.Isolated inputs are a different thing and very useful. Many modern DSOs support this but it is somewhat of a specialized feature. I suspect most users who require a differential probe would do better with isolated inputs. Compared to a differential input:- Built In- Lower Noise- Higher and More Reliable Common Mode Rejection- Higher Bandwidth- Low Common Mode Impedance - This is worse than with a differential input but not usually a problem.QuoteGreater than 8 bit resolution is of limited use. Vertical channel accuracy, linearity, settling time, and noise usually make 8 bits more than enough unless bandwidth is severely restricted.QuoteLots of DSOs meet this requirement. Even lots of 30 year old DSOs meet this requirement.QuoteIt is not about the cost to implement these features. It is about what customers will pay for them.A majority of customers will pay that much for a change in style and features which make a DSO worse. Low contrast user interface and controls? They have that. Want a glossy screen which reflects the room lights into your face? You are in luck.(1) Some early DSOs used analog channel switches so do not suffer any increase in quantization noise making them particularly suited to add and invert differential operation. These DSOs are a little weird; when the common mode rejection is adjusted in add and invert mode, you can visibly see the trace noise eerily decrease.

author: theoldwizard1
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 02, 2019, 10:05:55 pm
content: Quote from: JxR on June 02, 2019, 07:09:18 pmActually, the automotive verision os thePico 4425.Similar specs, but at least it has BNC connectors ! It does have some nice software for your PC, but again, GROSSLY overpriced.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 02, 2019, 10:08:22 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on June 02, 2019, 08:48:53 pmHigh voltage differential probes always have limited bandwidth compared to an isolated input when common mode rejection is taken into account.QuoteEvenold isolated probeswere good about safely insulating the operator making them look like something built by The LEGO Group.

author: guenthert
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 02, 2019, 10:22:57 pm
content: Oscilloscopes are good at showing squiggly lines and not much more. For that 8bit is enough, well with larger and higher resolution screens, more would be nice of course. Seems that Rohde&Schwarz sees a market opportunity there.Hmmh, perhaps worth mentioning the Digilent Analog Discovery again. It got a 14bit ADC (and differential inputs). For squiggly lines that would be overkill, but the Discovery is a multi-function device and can also act as a spectrum analyzer, for which 8bit certainly is not enough. At 100MS/s it might not be suitable to find glitches (depending of the duration of those glitches of course) and its triggering performance is only so-so, but for the intended market (educational and hobbyist) I think it's a good value.Don't expect a medium-prized 1GS/s version of it anytime soon though. Digilent is now a National Instruments company ...

author: JxR
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 02, 2019, 10:38:58 pm
content: Quote from: theoldwizard1 on June 02, 2019, 09:43:27 pm20Mhz Bandwidth...but who's counting. If it was "grossly" overpriced, then no one would buy it. If this type of scope had a large demand, then other manufacturers would move in to sale a similar scope at a market acceptable price. They've been selling it for years, so I'm assuming there must be a market for it. Simple economics.I personally have no use for such a scope. Again, why not just give us your budget? The thing is this, if you can't find what your looking for in your budget range, then it basically means you need to relax your requirements, or increase the amount your willing to spend. If what you used to use "back in the day" provided you the functionality your looking for, then have you tried finding whatever that was on the used market?

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 02, 2019, 11:28:01 pm
content: I thought Yokogawa had a differential input DSO but if they did, based on their web site it is discontinued. They do have several isolated input instruments.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 02, 2019, 11:36:20 pm
content: Here's a system that sort of halfway starts to meet the OPs requirements! 2 isolated channels, 500+ MSa/s per channel (in ETS or "repetitive store" mode). Still 8 bits though.All probably $10K worth back when new, still worth perhaps $1K today. Both units have 4-channel equivalents for more money.Not what most people would consider useful or a good value proposition for ordinary use, although the isolator comes in handy sometimes.

author: maginnovision
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 02, 2019, 11:55:15 pm
content: I got you buddy.https://www.ebay.com/itm/Fluke-192-ScopeMeter-Oscilloscope-Scope-Meter-VERY-NICE-SHAPE-WITH-CASE-ETC/382981392685It's a monster, it's got some bandwidth, deep 27.5k memory/ch, 500MS/s sampling rate, isolated inputs and an 8-bit ADC.

author: theoldwizard1
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2019, 02:43:06 am
content: Quote from: guenthert on June 02, 2019, 10:22:57 pmTheAnalog Discover 2is based on the AD9648 and has 1MΩ, ±25V, differential, 14-bit, 100MS/s (capable of 125 MS/s), 30MHz+ bandwidth. Save a few bucks and the 12 bit part, AD9628.Put 4 AD9628 in parallel, clocked together, and you have most of an "honest" 125 MS/s 'scope. Add the front end from the Analog Discovery 2 and your almost home.

author: theoldwizard1
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2019, 02:57:05 am
content: Quote from: JxR on June 02, 2019, 10:38:58 pmThe automotive specific version, 4425, has many features for auto techs. One of the biggest features if you sign up for their service is storing of "know good" waveforms from various sensors on various engines.Quote from: JxR on June 02, 2019, 10:38:58 pmUnder $10004 channels10/12 bitsdifferential input (or maybe just isolated ground)100 MHz front end, 500 MS/sec on each channel1 Mpts storageThis is very close to the Keysight DSOX1204A except for the 10/12 bits and the differential input

author: maginnovision
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2019, 06:08:25 am
content: The scope you want doesn't exist, you're going to have to make some compromises. Unless you just want those to be the specs whether they're real or not.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2019, 07:14:32 am
content: Quote from: theoldwizard1 on June 03, 2019, 02:57:05 amWhy do you think there be a product that has all these features when devices which only meet some of them sell for $2000 and up?Tektronix TPS2000BRohde & Schwarz RTB2000Picoscope 5000To get it all you are looking at much higher prices:Cleverscope CS448A product price is much more than the component costs, support, R&D recovery, profit. If you think its possible to do then back it with your own investment and shake up the oscilloscope market with this fantastic new low cost product.

author: egonotto
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2019, 09:14:06 am
content: Hello,4 channel scope prices are about few hundred $ (Rigol DS1054Z, Siglent SDS1104X-E) and more than a million $ (Keysight UXR 110GHz).So medium price is some 10000 $.In higher cost scopes is the cost of component a smallish part of the cost of the scope.Best regardsegonotto

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2019, 09:44:02 am
content: Quote from: theoldwizard1 on June 02, 2019, 06:14:49 pmThere's abigdifference between 1.5 MSPS and 2 GSPS.eg. Take a look at the AD9689 - $750 for a single channel, 2.0 GSPS ADC.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2019, 10:24:29 am
content: Quote from: theoldwizard1 on June 03, 2019, 02:57:05 amAs others have said, lose the 10/12 bits and the built-in differential inputs and get a DS1054Z or a SDS1104X-E. Use the leftover money to buy a differential probe adapter.No 10/12 bits, but fully differential units such as aFluke 190-104/Sare a shift-left in price.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2019, 10:57:30 am
content: Quote from: theoldwizard1 on June 03, 2019, 02:57:05 amOne option is R&S® Scope Rider RTH1014 - that will be 5000 €.Isolated input scopes are mostly handheld these days, for specialised industrial electronics uses in the field.I believe there is one Tektronix benchtop (TPS2000 2.5kpoints 3000-5000€), and there is a Cleverscope that is a 14bit USB beast that will cost you 9600 USD.You have wrong perception as how hard is to make some things and how much it is supposed to cost.Differential inputs are handled by using differential probes on a plain vanilla scope.More than 8 bit scopes are specialistic instruments. They are used in power electronics for instance and such (like Mosfet switching analysis for efficiency calculations and such) . Not really needed for general purpose work. So they are not mainstream, so sales volume is low, so no economy of scale. And also, it is also awkward to move around 10 bit words, to do math on 10 bit words etc.. Tricks are needed, usally just using 16Bit word width. Also doubling memory width not only needs twice the memory, but you need twice the speed for everything else, to be able to handle twice the bandwidth in the same time. So larger, more expensive FPGA.. I think you get the drift..For 100MHz/500MS/s, under 1000USD, you have Siglent SDS 1104X-E (min 500MS/s, can be unlocked to 200MHz), and you have Rigol MSO5000 (up to 8GS/s, min 2GS/s (that one can be unlocked for full capabilities )). They both have many measurements, decoding, lots of memory (Siglent has 10s of MPoints, Rigol has 100s of Mpoints.). Rigol has all that at that price only if unlocked(hacked). Siglent somes with most of the stuff legally unlocked.Rigol is still very new and still has teething problems, but is more powerful platform. Siglent is OTOH more mature and stable and works quite well nowadays, but smaller memory, smaller screen, slower sampling rate. It is also cheaper than Rigol, so you can get a small standalone AWG for the price difference. That you can use for quite nice FRA app in Siglent scope.There is also nice Micsig tablet handheld scope (nonisolated) that is very nice if you need portable (it will drop to 250MS/s with 4ch, but it does seem to handle it well).Siglent and MicSig go all the way down to 500uV/div, with very respectable noise figures.Rigol MSO5000 doesn't go lower than 4-5mV/div. So not so much for small signals.That concludes sub 1000 USD offers that are good price/performance. There are other scopes but they violate your request for minimum 500 MS/s with all channels enabled.What you would like doesn't exist, in that price range. Sorry.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2019, 11:17:24 am
content: theoldwizard1, I think you need to read more carefully:Quote from: theoldwizard1 on June 02, 2019, 06:14:49 pm1.5MSps is a far, far cry from 1GSps, as Fungus said. You're off by a factor of almost 700...Quote from: theoldwizard1 on June 02, 2019, 09:43:27 pmNo, the bandwidth is 20MHz, the 1MHz is a selectable bandwidth limiter.It's USB 3 with a USB sample rate of 50MSps. But normally you're not streaming thesamples, you're streaming thewaveforms.And as others have explained, aside from being a low-volume product, the lion's share of that unit's price premium is going into the differential inputs.

author: theoldwizard1
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2019, 01:05:24 pm
content: Quote from: maginnovision on June 03, 2019, 06:08:25 amI UNDERSTAND THIS !The point is was hoping to be discussed isWHY, or what part of my requirement are so far out in "left field" ?Is absolute "rock bottom" pricing the driving factor ?No one sees a need for differential (or at least isolated) inputs ?No value in 10 or 12 bits ?

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2019, 01:31:48 pm
content: Quote from: theoldwizard1 on June 03, 2019, 01:05:24 pmEverybodysees the need for those things. You can relax about that, you're not a lunatic.The problem is your idea that those things can be added to a cheap oscilloscope for a couple of hundred bucks. They simply can't, you're talking about adding a few thousand $$$ more to the price tag.It's not just theory either, if you look around that price range you'll find what you're after. They exist!

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2019, 01:36:31 pm
content: Quote from: theoldwizard1 on June 03, 2019, 01:05:24 pmNo rock bottom prices are not the factor but economies of scales are..Many users use active differential probes. It is prefered way for both high speed and high voltage.Isolated inputs is also used but it's niche requirement. Most of the time diff probes are enough.And no, there is not much value in 10-12 bits for a general purpose DSO. Would it be nice. Yes. Necessary? No. So again, specialized instruments, niche market.I have a 16bit scope. Very specialized instrument. Not much of general purpose DSO. Niche market.

author: maginnovision
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2019, 04:36:33 pm
content: Quote from: theoldwizard1 on June 03, 2019, 01:05:24 pmI have 2 scopes with fully isolated inputs, 2 with 10 bit adcs, and 3 with your required bandwidth. The problem is there quite literally is value with all of these things. You can't have them for free. Even the CS448 only has ±0.8V and ±8V ranges and 1M ohm 20pf inputs. Not really a general purpose scope and it requires a PC. Balancing cost and features will always be something you need to do and that hasn't changed in your lifetime so I wouldn't expect it to now. That is effectively what you're asking for and it's unreasonable.

author: exe
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 03, 2019, 07:02:31 pm
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on June 03, 2019, 01:36:31 pmSoundcard?

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2019, 08:23:14 pm
content: Quote from: exe on June 03, 2019, 07:02:31 pmPicoScope 4262

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2019, 09:16:22 pm
content: No offense to OP, but this is a typical eevblog request thread: want more than whats currently available, for a price lower than existing products are selling for. Won't give specifics as to price/features in first post (ok did put spec request details which is very good!).Quote from: ResistorRob on June 02, 2019, 07:36:40 pmThey put a lower end screen in it, because it is a lower end oscilloscope. Its completely reasonable to not want to take sales away from higher end markets.The brightness should be improved in the next hardware revision, but its not an issue for the majority of people who bought it already.

author: Magnum
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2019, 09:25:39 pm
content: I think they fixed the screen already. IMHO it is brighter than the DS1054Z.

author: exe
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 04, 2019, 06:39:08 am
content: Quote from: thm_w on June 03, 2019, 09:16:22 pmI think this is fine. I consider equipment market as mostly b2b. In b2b pricing is quite random and usually not hobbyist-friendly. In my opinion many products are overpriced, so think other people. Nothing wrong in sharing this.In this particular case it may be not obvious why, say, 10bit costs more than 8bit. It's "just 25% bits more", right? So, price should be just 25% bigger. As we figured out, it doesn't work this way, unfortunately.Also, prosumers like giving feedback. Like, oscilloscopes with dim screen. A potential buyer may be willing to pay $5-20 extra to not suffer from it (idk how much it would be to fix it). Again, it's just a feedback, and not unreasonable one. I don't think an argument "it's a cheap scope, should have cheap screen, stop complaining" is "stronger" than "save my eyes, screens are cheap".

author: maxwell3e10
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2019, 12:14:28 pm
content: No one mentioned Owon XDS scopeshttps://owontechnology.eu/oscilloscopes.htmlThey have 12 or 14 bits resolution (although at smaller sampling rates) and often come with built-in battery for isolated operation. I also like the relatively big screen.

author: theoldwizard1
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2019, 01:05:51 pm
content: Quote from: maxwell3e10 on June 04, 2019, 12:14:28 pmDave did a review and a tear down of the XDS3202A awhile ago. Not exactly the best rating, but the idea of having a user selectable 8/12/14 bit resolution(and it looks like they display the sample rate), IMHO, is a GOOD idea !The XDS3204E drops the sample rate a lot when you go from 8 to 12 to 14 bits (four channels; 500/250/100 MS/s). I don't know how you call that a 200 MHz scope, certainly not at 14 bits !The price is about what I would expect ($900US).

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2019, 01:53:58 pm
content: First of all, the bandwidth spec is the bandwidth of the analog front end. The relationship between analog bandwidth and sampling rate is an issue unto itself. So no, you can’t get uppity about this.Owon is completely clear about the sampling rate vs sample bit depth. The datasheets for the >8 bit models are very clear about the maximum bandwidth and sample rate at a given bit depth and number of channels.Note that not all models in the XDS series are greater than 8 bit!! The 3204E is not among them, it’s 8 bit only. No idea where you’re getting the specs you’re claiming.

author: Neomys Sapiens
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2019, 05:31:38 pm
content: A very important influence on the pricing of such instruments is EXPECTED USAGE. What does one want a 'scope with isolated inputs for? Right - measuring across large potential differences, at high potentials etc. In this case, there are severe safety requirements and the associated rat tail of verification. Those devices exist to be used utilizing their full capability and it is regarded as not helpful for sales once pictures of a manufacturer's scope appear with a large sooty smudge with a nametag in front of it.The point about the scopes with more than 8 bit has already been argued. And seeing a ADC with nice specs is quite meaningless unless you have the time, knowledge and resources to build the necessary frontend around it. (to say nothing of the other end, where the data goes and is processed). It is still a very special discipline of electronics and this is where all the cheap scopes lose the value of their ADCs faster than you can say step response.While I have worked with high power and voltage a lot and have absolutely no problem to do so, in my private lab I have made the compromise of using external isolation probes. I'm trying to get better ones, and there is stil some room for improvement. When on a job, I expect the specialist stuff to be furnished. If not, it can be rent. So I am doing well with a 2Gs/s 4ch DSO of prime quality (used) and a digital and analogue backup/portable and a isolated small handheld.

author: Mr Nutts
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2019, 09:41:51 am
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on June 03, 2019, 01:36:31 pmWhat make and model is this 16 bit scope if you don’t mind me asking? Is this an USB scope?I don’t know of any 16 bit bench scopes

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2019, 09:55:33 am
content: Quote from: Mr Nutts on June 05, 2019, 09:41:51 amQuote from: 2N3055 on June 03, 2019, 08:23:14 pm