New Suba Engineering PCB Microscope - Tagarno Killer? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 07, 2018, 06:37:38 am
content: A brief look at the impressive new Suba Engineering PCB Microscope.Designed and manufactured in Australia.Tagarno Killer?

author: Smallsmt
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 07, 2018, 06:51:47 am
content: Do you have any price indication?The Sony camera is the best in market at this price range.You receive a wide auto focus range and high light sensitivity.

author: Kadah
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: September 07, 2018, 07:17:17 am
content: I bet Dave already asked them to send him one to review.

author: mswhin63
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 07, 2018, 07:56:19 am
content: >QuoteQuote

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 07, 2018, 07:57:15 am
content: Quote from: mswhin63 on September 07, 2018, 07:56:19 amWonder how long it takes to boot...

author: D3f1ant
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 07, 2018, 08:12:45 am
content: The tagarno has the fancy electronic control box for zoom control etc and some rather expensive software 'options'. They really are slightly different beasts with possibly different usage. For basic inspection the Suba product is VERY compelling at that price point. We ordered one, apparently they sold 16 on the first day.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 07, 2018, 08:54:00 am
content: Quote from: Smallsmt on September 07, 2018, 06:51:47 amThought I said that in the video, AU$1800 including the 4K monitor and stand, a complete package.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 07, 2018, 08:55:01 am
content: Quote from: Kadah on September 07, 2018, 07:17:17 amI didn't actually. Probably should have. Need to use it some more, but I think I get one to replace my Tagarno, it's seem to offer many advantages for the types of video I do.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 07, 2018, 08:55:44 am
content: Quote from: D3f1ant on September 07, 2018, 08:12:45 amThe owner told me they got an order for 400 units, not sure from whom.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 07, 2018, 08:56:41 am
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on September 07, 2018, 07:57:15 amGood question, didn't try that!I think my Tagarno is about 4-5 seconds.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 07, 2018, 09:00:11 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on September 07, 2018, 08:55:01 amFor videos like this you should have an affilliate link so a manufacturer can see how many leads they get as a result of your video - might be useful in persuading them to supply units for review etc.

author: matthewpang
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 07, 2018, 05:04:20 pm
content: Quote from: D3f1ant on September 07, 2018, 08:12:45 amSaid Tagarno fancy control box is fairly badly thought out (especially on the lower end model) and not super friendly - having to long press/ short press the button for focus and zoom and the clunky and not responsive menu system is infuriating. The temperamental height adjustment system is also just annoying. It is bad to a point we were seriously considering reverse engineering the control protocol and making a replacement control box with a better UX.Quote from: EEVblog on September 07, 2018, 08:55:44 amNot surprised. I saw your video about 5 minutes ago and already sent and email to Suba to buy one to evaluate and assuming it is as good as it appears to be in your video I will buy more in a heartbeat and push all my clients in the same direction. For the efficiency gain from the autofocus feature alone I would happily pay <more> than the price of the Tagarno - given its price point this is a ridiculously awesome deal.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 07, 2018, 06:41:11 pm
content: I wonder what the latency is like - .it only takes a small delay to render a magnifier useless for working under ( as opposed to inspection)Odd that they supply the monitor ( though maybe to ensure latency performance) - will add unnecessary costs for shipping etc. if you could buy the monitor locally. Maybe they offer the option for overseas buyers.

author: maginnovision
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 07, 2018, 10:49:34 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on September 07, 2018, 06:41:11 pmI know not everyone has this problem... I can't solder without 3d optics though. I'm an absolute mess soldering in 2d.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2018, 09:30:06 pm
content: imo industrial design fail, it looks like a early generation portable vacuum cleanerseriously I wanna open the top and empty the collection bin.Does no one else see it? and the logoIt looks like it came off a energy drink can.And the best soldering video microscope I used is the one I made from a old analog CCTV cam, because it felt completely real time, but my optics came out absolutely massive (like 1 feet long), and it was unfortunately black and white, but had good line resolution.

author: mrpackethead
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2018, 01:05:33 am
content: I've found that tryign to use a video compared scope vs a Mantis type scope is chalk and cheese. Theres times i'd love to be able to take pics of what i'm looking at, but for fixing a problem, ( reworking a joint for example ) the mantis is the right tool.

author: rx8pilot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2018, 01:10:41 am
content: I want one pretty bad. It is a good price for the whole package.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2018, 01:16:51 am
content: I never really did commercial PCB inspection (other then the odd board) but arent there certain defects that don't show up well on a video microscope but are easily seen on a 3d one?

author: rx8pilot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2018, 01:21:22 am
content: Quote from: coppercone2 on September 09, 2018, 01:16:51 amYes....to see it all the PCB needs to be tilted or use a mirror.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2018, 01:26:59 am
content: The major benefit I can see is that if you are looking at a fragile ceramic PCB you don't want the operator holding it, so maybe you can make some kinda limited range of motion jig to put it up on (i assume you still wanna tilt it a little bit), but i don't know if there is good reason not to do the same with a video scope.do you think the 3d vision makes it easier to see since your brain gets all the info at once, rather then trying to fuss with it in 2d? since its giving you more information in any one time. I never used a mantis, only a eyepiece one, which I find downright irritating to use.

author: rx8pilot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2018, 01:41:52 am
content: The ultimate microscope experience is still the Vision Engineering Mantis.They are stunning for inspection and assembly. If you need video for presentation or recording - they don't offer anything super special though.

author: LapTop006
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 09, 2018, 08:57:21 am
content: Quote from: rx8pilot on September 09, 2018, 01:41:52 amMaybe the ones they had at Electronex weren't set right, but I was really unimpressed, sure it had a nice image, but I needed to keep my head within a few millimeters of the sweet spot to see it, and even then, I didn't see what the huge benefit was over a camera based system.

author: mrpackethead
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2018, 10:00:14 am
content: Quote from: rx8pilot on September 09, 2018, 01:41:52 amYup. i agree. I''ve not seen teh suba, but have tryed lots of other cameras. I'm yet to see one that compares to using the mantis for inspection / rework etc. But as you say, useless for makign videos.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2018, 11:16:31 am
content: I had a chat with a Vision Engineering rep about their camera/video offerings and they were a bit embarrassed that are so poor. I can't see it would be that hard to add a beamsplitter to get a decent image with a similar FOV.The "3Dness" of the Mantis is hard to explain til you use one - basically you can move your head around to get slightly different view angles of a static subject. Depth of focus is also pretty good, and you can nudge it around with your forehead for minor hands-free adjustments.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 09, 2018, 11:29:14 am
content: Quote from: rx8pilot on September 09, 2018, 01:41:52 amI'm continually frustrated at seeing a stunning image in the Mantis and then not being able to capture it, even a still image. The image quality is just garbage

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 09, 2018, 11:30:46 am
content: Quote from: rx8pilot on September 09, 2018, 01:21:22 amYes, and this is why I was so impressed with the Suba. Near vertical PCB and I could focus on any point I wanted with ease.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2018, 12:11:08 pm
content: I wonder how long before the Chinese clone it - from what I could tell it was a motorised lens driven by the the image content.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2018, 12:12:42 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on September 09, 2018, 11:29:14 amIf you set it up right you can get some reasonable images pointing the camera at the screen, but you really want a trinocular setup to snap the current view. I suspect something about the optics makes it not so simple.

author: mrpackethead
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2018, 09:34:41 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on September 09, 2018, 11:29:14 amYou dont' use a screwdriver to put nails in. The mantis excels at what its good at.

author: taemun
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 12, 2018, 01:03:58 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on September 09, 2018, 12:11:08 pmThe Chinese don't need to clone this, they built it.I'll need to dig up some photos, but I bought a microscope with 90% of this performance from Elvis optical in Seg Plaza (same autofocus, same features/UI, same objective lens on the bottom, same mount, different shape box above the objective). It was about 2000 RMB (400 AUD) for the kit, not including LCD monitor. Spits out 1080p60, no perceived latency (1~2 frames latency).Surprisingly good optical quality.I think Suba have fine tuned some of the optics to get the longer throw, but it's clearly from the same actual manufacturer - the autofocus, USB mouse support and associated on-screen UI is a dead ringer.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 12, 2018, 01:09:28 pm
content: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/Autofocus-1080P-60FPS-SONY-SENSOR-IMX290-HDMI-Video-Industry-Auto-Focus-Microscope-Camera-100X-C-Mount/32853481756.html?spm=2114.search0104.3.13.4c083e7dV7Dsdw&ws_ab_test=searchweb0_0,searchweb201602_3_10065_10068_10130_10547_10059_10548_5016815_5016715_100031_10696_10192_10190_10084_5016615_10083_10103_451_452_10618_5016915_10307_10820_10301_10821_10303,searchweb201603_1,ppcSwitch_7&algo_expid=8d9b3b21-cf94-4458-b057-9f847ac793c3-2&algo_pvid=8d9b3b21-cf94-4458-b057-9f847ac793c3&priceBeautifyAB=0

author: taemun
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 12, 2018, 01:51:18 pm
content: Respect! Your AliExpress-fu is strong!I've attached a couple of pictures of mine. Got it about a year ago.

author: taemun
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 12, 2018, 01:55:55 pm
content: Bonus Shenzhen market offset-viewing video microscope attached.Just a couple well-aligned mirrors after the objective - works surprisingly well.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 12, 2018, 02:36:54 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on September 09, 2018, 12:12:42 pmThat's how I get my Mantis shots, it's tricky but works. Still not nearly as good or as bright as what you see in the viewfinder.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 12, 2018, 02:44:56 pm
content: Quote from: taemun on September 12, 2018, 01:51:18 pmWell there you go, seems the dude lied to me. He said he had someone develop the UI app for him. Did say he got the camera sensor and optics from China though as you'd expect.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 12, 2018, 03:03:18 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on September 12, 2018, 02:44:56 pmmaybe they have done a new app - with the avarage quality of Chinese Software I'd be surprised if it was anywhere near perfect. The vid in the Aliexpress link I posted does show quite a lot of focus hunting, though that may be down to the settings.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 12, 2018, 03:13:13 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on September 12, 2018, 03:03:18 pmThe menu system looks identical at least.He did tell me it had to be set up a certain way (as in zoom vs distance) to get the big focus range.

author: taemun
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 13, 2018, 05:59:58 am
content: Mine has some issue with focus hunting, but you get better at aiming the focus rectangle at a high contrast edge. You can also lock the focus plane, and nudge it up and down via the mouse.Auto exposure works pretty well, and that's also lockable via the OSD.Boot time isn't bad - maybe 15-20 seconds from memory. It does a full length focus hunt as a part of the boot process. We just left it on all day in the office.Overall, the best microscope I've seen for showing a group of people something up on a TV/HDMI monitor - but I haven't played with a Tagarno other than in passing at a trade show.

author: mrpackethead
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 13, 2018, 06:26:50 am
content: I was pretty sure i'd seen very similar set ups in the SEG as well. Nice cover on the SUBA one though.

author: mrpackethead
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 13, 2018, 07:38:00 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on September 12, 2018, 02:44:56 pmGoing to do a debunking video Dave?

author: mrpackethead
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 13, 2018, 11:50:09 pm
content: Seems these are rapidlly becoming the thing. And everyones claiming there's is unique..https://www.smallsmt.biz/pcb-inspection/When will everyone learn that unless you really do design somethign and it is unique that within a few days, the internet will find ya out.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 14, 2018, 12:44:28 am
content: Quote from: mrpackethead on September 13, 2018, 07:38:00 amI've got one on order...

author: maginnovision
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 15, 2018, 01:07:02 am
content: Almost sad, a well designed chinese product(presumably), and everyone else takes credit for it. What goes around comes around.

author: mrpackethead
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 15, 2018, 07:45:12 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on September 14, 2018, 12:44:28 amtHANKS. I WAS very tempted.. but i'll wait and see what you come up with,.

author: matthewpang
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 15, 2018, 08:04:05 am
content: Did some more digging . There seem to be two possible versionsLower end (linked to by other posters above) "2D" version~$600 - 10cm working distance1) There seem to sell all variety of stands and accessories and there appear to be 2 versions of the brain box (one with the uSD/TF card and one without). As usual it took careful hunting of all the ali express listings (and diff-ing them) to come to the best version ($618 shipped to the US) :https://www.aliexpress.com/store/product/Phone-PCB-CPU-SMD-Repair-Laboratory-IC-Check-Autofocus-1080P-60FPS-HDMI-Video-Industry-Auto-Focus/610200_32867109543.html?spm=2114.12010612.8148356.2.342311261IAYN2This one has the uSD card AND the nice "boom stand" which gives you an extra arm as opposed to just height adjustment.Another vendor has the same product (no screen but cheaper - $599 with free shipping)http://www.lapsun.com/1080p-60fps-hdmi-auto-focus-microscope-camera-180x-lens-stand-sony-sensor-imx290_p1504.htmlUSB Mouse InputHDMI OutputTF/uSD Card StorageHigher End1) 3D Version (~$1100) 10cm working distance 2D, 4cm working distance 3DThis one seems to have more features "3D" with the mirror trick mentioned abovehttp://www.lapsun.com/2d-3d-stereoscopic-180x-cmount-lens-1080p60fps-hdmi-industrial-cmount-digital-microscope-camera_p1518.htmlUSB Mouse InputHDMI OutputTF/uSD Card Storage2) "More expensive version of the "2D" version ~$1000) - 31cm working distancehttp://www.lapsun.com/autofocus-optics-lens-1080p-60fps-hdmi-auto-focus-industrial-microscope-camera_p1510.htmlIt could be more expensive then the other 2D version becausea) 10cm -> 31 cm working distance (seem to be different modes with different field of views)b) Supports "io equipment" (There appears to be a connector for wired remote button box/controller ) in addition to USB mouse inputd) Appears to have more polished software/UI (the software/UI on this one appear to be much closer to the SUBA in Dave's video.e) Appears to have built in optical zoomf) Could have better focus/optics - this one also has a noticeably longer body which suggests maybe there are more opticsSuspect this may be the higher end SUBA based on the larger working distance.USB Mouse InputExternal IO Controller InputHDMI OutputTF/uSD Card StorageHave a couple on order (and contacted Suba to cancel the original order) - will undoubtedly break into this thing and hack the firmware to add features and fun stuff.Will report back here with details.PS: Thanks for the tiny hint on the livestream DavePPS: Sensor data :https://www.sony-semicon.co.jp/products_en/new_pro/february_2015/imx290_291_e.html

author: IconicPCB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 15, 2018, 11:20:29 am
content: Many years ago an American company METRON OPTICS used to make a 3D inspection viewer based on mirrors not lens system.It was an incredible experience viewing the image in 3d.The image was formed in space and the user had a phenomenal degree of freedom using the viewer.Sadly the viewer became extinct, could not compete with camera microscopes on price.Metron are still in business( sort of) they still supply their consumables( marking inks) and inspection mirrors.