QNAP/SYNOLOGY/HP - More Server and NAS questions (the next step) - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 13, 2017, 06:05:54 am
content: I know this isn't a computer forum - and I don't want to get buried with the masses of opinion I would get on one of those if I were to ask the question. An opinion from an EE community suits me just fine.I've been looking at getting a modest NAS setup for a while now - and the trigger is getting close to being pulled. The thinking is at least 4 bays, 4TB drives and circa $1K.At this point, I am looking at the QNAP TS-453A with 4x SEAGATE IRONWOLF 4TB drives. Another box of interest is the SYNOLOGY DISKSTATION DS416PLAY.Any thoughts - pros, cons, warnings ... or alternative suggestions would be welcome.

author: kripton2035
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 13, 2017, 06:25:41 am
content: I sell and install both qnap and synology.frankly, no big difference, if some feature appears on a model, it comes on the other some months later.the stations are almost the same.when you seek something special, like double power supply, in some rare format, 10 disks, rack, or so, then you often only have one model that suits your needs in one brand only, you don't have a choice.but for a 4 bays disks, they are all the same.just put some more $$$ into the 4tb disks, use certified server disks (24/24), all brands have these. they usualy have 5 years of warranty.buy one more disk for a quick spare, and don't forget to buy a big (10TB ?) external disk to backup the NAS they are not 100% safe.you can have a powersurge, a ransomware, well it could be bad to loose 12TB of datas for a disk loss.I prefer HGST over Seagate for the failure rate of the disks.

author: Jeroen3
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 13, 2017, 06:30:58 am
content: Qnap has virtualisation and HDMI. Synology has no hdmi, and only virtualization on the high end rack models iirc.I own two Synologys, a DS410 and a DS214. Synology is a bit like the Apple of NAS world.You have to abide with their laws, if you install your own package over ssh, custom openvpn, you can, but no guarantee it will still work after an reboot or update. They restore or overwrite many configurations.If you want to diy with Own/Next-cloud or something else, don't get a nas with pre installed software.If you want a simple file server with some mobile apps andoptional cloud. Buy one now, put in some WD RED's, and go on with your life.Synology is also experimenting with online backup of the entire nas, calledSynology C2.

author: DrGeoff
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 13, 2017, 06:59:53 am
content: I have a QNap TS412 (Atom based) with 4x4T RED drives as Raid5, mostly used for drive images and backups of many Win workstations.Recently I built a mini-ITX box (quad core pentium N3700 processor) with 4x3T RED drives, also Raid5 using FreeNAS.The FreeNAS box is much faster with network transfer speeds over the QNap box.

author: rdl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 13, 2017, 07:31:04 am
content: I built a FreeNAS machine recently. I used an HP Microserver N54L that I bought on sale years ago even though I had no use for it at the time.I replaced the stock memory with 2x4GB of ECC RAM. I put a pair of WD Blue 2TB drives in it, mirrored. The OS runs off Two 16GB Sandisk UltraFit flash drives, also mirrored. A single 8GB flash drive was said to be enough at the time. There has been an update since then, but I haven't had time to look at it.I have had no problems so far, but of course all the data on it is backed up on another machine, as I consider it somewhat of an experiment for now.

author: Jeroen3
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 13, 2017, 07:59:57 am
content: Quote from: DrGeoff on April 13, 2017, 06:59:53 amYes, obviously. A faster CPU.However, I'd like to point out the drawbacks to DIY servers:- They're time expensive. You have to do all the installation and maintenance.- You can't get support. If it breaks, it's all up to you and team google.- You can't migrate in a few clicks.eg: if I put my DS410 disks in my DS214, it will ask "old DSM found, do you want to migrate". The installed packages won't migrate,but the configurations and volumes do. Failed hardware is no risk.- They're larger.Keep that in mind. DIY might seem cheap and fast, but don't underestimate the effort and knowledge required to get the results you want.But, they are faster, cheaper and more customizable.

author: kripton2035
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 13, 2017, 09:39:34 am
content: one advantage of freenas is that the disk formats are known. if your nas is dead, you can construct another, put the disks inside and it will work. that's not the case for qnap or synology, their format is unknown, you have to backup your datas outside of the nas.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 13, 2017, 09:54:59 am
content: Space, noise and power consumption are considerations. The unit also must not be ugly as it will be placed in a visible location.I'm not keen on proprietary file formats, but it's something I can learn to live with .... I think.

author: H.O
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 13, 2017, 09:59:57 am
content: Can't speak for the QNAP but on the Synology, if the disk(s) are intact you can (apparently) access/recover your data using a normal PC with Ubuntu.Hereare the instructions.EDIT: Have a DS414 myself, had it for years, working great for my fairly modest needs. Never tried the above.

author: kripton2035
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 13, 2017, 10:22:01 am
content: Quote from: H.O on April 13, 2017, 09:59:57 amdid not know that, don't know if it exists on qnap, but that's a big advantage for synology then.

author: VK3DRB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 13, 2017, 10:30:09 am
content: Quote from: Jeroen3 on April 13, 2017, 06:30:58 amThanks for the warning. I am after a NAS sever, and you have put me off Synology. It sounds like Apple iTunes - bloated crapware specially written for imbeciles. No thanks. QNAP wins by default.

author: rob77
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 13, 2017, 10:33:43 am
content: HP microserver G7 with 4 x WD red, 8G RAM running debian exporting iscsi luns + samba and nfs volumes for my other machines, also running dlna server and hosts 2 VMs (one of them handling VPN) it looks good (definitely not ugly - i have it in my living room), requires knowledge to setup, definitely not for ordinary users. but if someone is a linux person, then it's definitely a preferred option over single purpose nas boxes. HDMI on a nas box is not a good idea IMHO.. it's better to have a dedicated multimedia player (i have a gigabyte Brix running ubuntu as media player/browsing PC).

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 13, 2017, 10:52:02 am
content: Quote from: VK3DRB on April 13, 2017, 10:30:09 amThat made me nervous as well.

author: Jeroen3
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 13, 2017, 11:08:16 am
content: Quote from: kripton2035 on April 13, 2017, 09:39:34 amOnly if you use SHR (Synology Hybrid Raid), they can do normal RAID just fine. And there is nothing proprietary or unknown about ext4.Quote from: VK3DRB on April 13, 2017, 10:30:09 amThis could be the same for QNap. Please verify.Example:I run Owncloud on my DS214. It was available trough thesynocommunity. It works fine, but public links don't. I have to make some configuration changes to some php plugin in dsm 5 and 6 to make it work. This change is reset each minor update.And now with dsm 7, with a completely revised webserver, it's "completely broken"*.(read: I'm not experienced enough with linux to fix it)Synology does offer similar functionality in their Cloudstation. I'm just stubborn to not use it. Which is completely my fault.If you care about all these details little, like filesystem and specific webserver settings, a plug&play nas it not for you.

author: bitwelder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 13, 2017, 02:55:51 pm
content: Quote from: Jeroen3 on April 13, 2017, 11:08:16 amEven if SHR technology is proprietary by Synology, what's written on the disks is nothing that a standard Linux machine cannot access.SHR is just a smart logic to assemble together physical disk partitions using soft-RAID and LVM (logical volumes).

author: rdl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 13, 2017, 04:26:40 pm
content: There are a number of videos on Youtube about FreeNAS that are worth a look. Eli the Computer Guy has a couple and there was a weekly show called Tek Syndicate that frequently featured FreeNAS.Apparently there was some drama and Tek Syndicate is now called Crit. Any of the episodes where Wendell does most of the show are worth watching. The other guy, not so much.iXsystems sells pre-built machines based on FreeNAS. They are pricey, but possibly an option if you want to avoid DiY.The Gen 7 HP Microservers are very nice little machines. It's almost worth buying one just to get a hands-on look. You'll probably find some use for it just because. The newer Gen 8 seem to me like an over-priced attempt to cash in on the popularity of the Gen 7 versions.

author: rrinker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 13, 2017, 09:02:24 pm
content: Quote from: Jeroen3 on April 13, 2017, 07:59:57 amThis is why I don;t liek any of these low end NAS devices. My DIY which is <gasp>Windows has been chugging along for 6 years now. Certainly no OS faults. It runs headless, I occasionally remote into it to make sure all is well, but most any faults would pop up in my desktop's notifications if there were any. It doesn't use any form of RAID - it uses disk pooling. I have drives of all sizes in it, from 1TB to 4TB, and every file is protected by being on at least 2 physical disks. With no special formatting. I can take any disk out of it and attach it to any computer that can recognize NTFS format and read my data. It's also all backed up to a cloud backup for offsite replication. Replacing a drive is simple as can be, might need to swap out the last 1TB drive soon as I am getting down to 2TB free. I just take the drive I want to repalce offline, the system rebalances the data on said drive to make sure the at least 2 copies on different physical drives is maintained, and then I can remove it (I just have a basic mid-tower case so the drives aren't hot pluggable) and add in a new one. I then tell it to add the new disk to the pool, and once again it rebalances to include the new disk and maintain the file duplication.The 4 bay storage units, with NO drives, some of them cost more than my rig with a couple of 3TB drives in it. And 4 disks often leads to RAID 5 which is just bad. No, the pool does not increase read throughput but it also does not decrease write throughput as the copy process happens int he background. That's probably the ONLY exposure on the whole thing - if i copy a new file to the server and the drive the file landed on dies RIGHT THEN, it likely did not have time to replicate to another drive and is lost. This is actually the third one I've built, the first one I tried to cheap out and used an AMD processor and a smaller case, ti was too slow plus I quickly ran out of space (when a 1TB drive was new and very expensive). Second time was this same MB and case, but with an older version of the software. Third time I took all the disks out, rebuilt it with 3 new larger drives, and then 1 by 1 copied the data off each of the old disks and put the largest of them back into the server, leaving out my smallest and oldest drives.It easily serves up multiple HD video streams. Most I've had going were movies streaming to two tvs, each with a Roku, plus playing another one on my desktop. The Rokus play via Plex, my desktop directly reads the files from a share, all 1080.Oh and it also automatically backups all my computers, using deduplication and incremental backup, but it hides most of the restore - I just pick which computer I want to restore, and then I get a list of all the backups available, and pick which date I want to restore from. I can either restore the whole machine, or open the backup as a drive and look through it and copy needed files. And that too gets backed up to the cloud for redundancy.When everyone was going nuts of Drobo, I took a look. It was several steps behind what my server already was doing. I passed. ANd continue to do so. At some point I'm sure I'll have a hardware failure - the thing IS on 24/7/365. Probably won't install or have drivers for the latest gen of processors, so I will be finally forced to change to something else.

author: kaz911
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 13, 2017, 09:48:01 pm
content: I like my QNAP's - they are not perfect but they have replaced my Winodws Home server with Drobo B800i. Drobo was just to darn slow.I have a main 871 i7 for "office" use and light home use - then I have a remote 453 for offsite sync/backup. They are quiet - don't use much power for what you get - the SSD cache works "ok" (but not perfect) and VM's on them runs ok. On the 453 it struggles a bit (Atom Processor) but plenty fast on the i7 871. I find the 871 better designed than the latest x82 series - drive trays are better and less noisy.I use Resilio Sync so far to keep them synced - but are considering VPN'ing them to use the built in rsync. As I have a lot of data (pictures) I don't think their "cloud" sync would be good. I only run HD Mirroring on purpose as I have seen to many failures with Raid 5/6 etc. that was disasters. Once in a while I plug in a big archive disk and do a complete backup and put in storage at a 3rd location offsite.

author: John Coloccia
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 14, 2017, 03:15:50 am
content: Quote from: VK3DRB on April 13, 2017, 10:30:09 amWith due respect to both of you, I don't even know WTF this means. I've been running a Synology RAID 1 as part of my backup scheme and I don't know what it means to abide by their laws, open VPN or anything else. I setup the RAID, setup the folder shares I want, and it's worked flawlessly for years. It's been the most reliable part of my network so far, requiring exactly zero maintenance. Sometimes I occasionally log in to it just to check it's still doing it's thing, because it just sits there and quietly works and leaves me alone, and frankly I'm not used to modern devices just doing their job without constantly pestering me for stuff.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 14, 2017, 04:08:25 am
content: Quote from: rrinker on April 13, 2017, 09:02:24 pmCongratulations, you're doing nothing which can't be done by anything else. There's good reasons nobody does that, though..QuoteNo worse than your 'at least two copies' with a variety of fun exceptions.QuoteRAID does not decrease write throughput notably - actually, a decent non-mirror array writes faster than a single member drive. So you're losing out on both + more fragility. And no, it's far from the only exposure - see below.You're doing nothing in particular other systems can't do (okay, yours is a bit more integrated with Windows, unsurprisingly). I'm glad it works for you, but it's not better.How does 'your' duplication scheme cope with read errors? Windows typically just panics uselessly. How about corrupted reads? Just go with whatever we read first and assume that single medium is perfect? Will it end up propagating corruption across the duplicates or do you just end up with a pile of inconsistent blocks? Does it ever check for consistency?

author: 3db
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 14, 2017, 08:43:19 am
content: The HP microservers running Freenas are a good cost effective solution.The HP microservers are reliable and can be a real bargain if you manage to get them during the cash back promotions.The latest version of Freenas is also much more user friendly.IMHO if you really care about you data then nothing beats the ZFS filesystem.3DB

author: Jeroen3
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 14, 2017, 09:40:07 am
content: Quote from: John Coloccia on April 14, 2017, 03:15:50 amYou don't care about the details. A plug&play nasisthe solution for you.Quote from: Monkeh on April 14, 2017, 04:08:25 amIt probably hasn't happened yet. If you get bad bits on an NTFS file system, it breaks, and the data is lost. Or most of the times, it doesn't even notify you. You just notice your video stops playing, of your pdf won't open. Too late. This is why raid is below the filesystem.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 14, 2017, 11:34:12 am
content: The HP microserver alternative.....Hmmm......Any thoughts there?

author: rob77
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 14, 2017, 11:51:10 am
content: Quote from: Brumby on April 14, 2017, 11:34:12 amdepends on what you need. if it's storage only , then install freenas. if you need much more, then just install your favorite linux distro and configure all the stuff you need manually - iscsi, samba, nfs, dlna, virtualization.i'm running Debian 7 and using the 4 disks in my microserver in 2 RAID1 arrays, LVM on top of the arrays and creating logical volumes for particular services (exporting LVs as iSCSI luns, separate filesystems on on LVs for samba or NFS exports), LVs as disks for the KVM virtual machines.also running dlna server on the microserver. the microserver is going strong for a long time, only issue i had was a failed disk which i replaced and re-synced the raid.

author: Jeroen3
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 14, 2017, 12:32:18 pm
content: Or you put Unraid on the thing to run multiple stuff you need. Might even be FreeNAS and a Windows.

author: rdl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 14, 2017, 12:45:56 pm
content: Quote from: Brumby on April 14, 2017, 11:34:12 amAs I said previously, I have never thought the G8 Microservers were worth the price HP asks. They are also quite ugly, if that matters, with two-tone case and silly (flame?) pattern punched in the front door. That is just my opinion, of course.The G7 were often sold for under $250 new. You can now find them used for less. Or more. Unfortunately the sellers often inflate the price because they include drives, memory, or other options that you may not need or want.

author: rob77
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 14, 2017, 12:51:18 pm
content: Quote from: rdl on April 14, 2017, 12:45:56 pmyou can buy a Gen8 for approx 230Euros including VAT (190euro without tax) with a celeron CPU. the models with xeons are too expensive though. i have a Gen7 which looks better, but the Gen8 is smaller. and probably if you would black spray paint that ugly silver grill of the Gen8 it would look much better too

author: rdl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 14, 2017, 01:00:22 pm
content: I have two of the Gen 7, I wish I had bought another while they were still being made and on sale. The Gen 8 seems to go on sale on rarely in the US, so are hard to find at a decent price.Another alternative is the ML10 V2. It goes on sale often here. It's not as small as the Microservers, and still suffers from the incomplete punching of the front panel ventilation holes, but at least it's all black.https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=2RC-001A-000S2The best choice will depend on what's available locally.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 14, 2017, 01:36:23 pm
content: I do have a fondness for flexibility in hardware.

author: 3db
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 14, 2017, 02:36:02 pm
content: Quote from: rob77 on April 14, 2017, 11:51:10 amFreenas can do all that except perhaps the DNLA.The implementation of the DNLA standards is extremely variable.I gave up on it years ago. Perhaps it has improved.

author: kripton2035
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 14, 2017, 02:44:58 pm
content: if you want to use your nas for home cinema, the qnap or synology way is easier, just some boxes to check and voilà. DLNA is active.and also no atom or celeron processors if you want to transcode in real time...

author: rob77
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 14, 2017, 02:47:58 pm
content: Quote from: 3db on April 14, 2017, 02:36:02 pmfreenas can't do virtualization (run virtual machines) and it's less flexible than a full linux OS installation. but on the other hand freenas is easy to use and does have many plugins like bacula backup, torrent... even minidlna acoording to their web.

author: 3db
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 14, 2017, 03:16:53 pm
content: Quote from: rob77 on April 14, 2017, 02:47:58 pm.Freenas CAN do virtualisation. I've done it using jails and virtual box on older versions.The latest Freenas has an even better solution using BHYVE.I have no problem with the linux concept.At one time ZFS was shit under Linux. I haven't looked at it for yearsThe main issue is that if you want to run virtual machines then that typically means using RAM.If you want good performance from ZFS then that also means lots of RAMSo I tend to use a computer as a NAS running with perhaps one VM.BTW If you are interested in virtualisation you might find PROXMOX of interest (Debian based).;3DB

author: rob77
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 14, 2017, 03:40:07 pm
content: Quote from: 3db on April 14, 2017, 03:16:53 pmjail is NOT virtualization.... jail is less than a container even... i'm talking about full virktualization (VM which can run independent OS - even windows).virtual box is NOT freenas - virtual box is a different product.. if you install virtualbox to the BSD system freenas is running on ... then we can't even remotely talk about virtualization in freenas.when talking about freenas we talk about a storage solution with web based management - it's BSD based so you can do anything what you can do with a BSD system... but then you are using the underlaying BSD system , not freenas itself.ZFS is great in some aspects but it's not the all-mighty cure for everything... it has it's benefits and also drawbacks as every other solution has.

author: rrinker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 14, 2017, 08:05:07 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on April 14, 2017, 04:08:25 amIt's certainly no worse than a consumer grade NAS. And it works with Macs, too, if I had any.This is home use. It's not form commercial grade applications. Our business customers with large storage requirements have true SANs with lots of spindles and all sorts of proper redundancy. As for reliability and recovery, I had ONE disk fail over the 9 years I have been running this, and it didn't crash the server. Windows isn't going to blue screen on a failure of a data only drive. the system disk - very likely. I COULD have made that redundant with hardware level mirroring but I didn't - it's just not that critical, because I can replace that drive and reinstall the OS and remount the old drive pool. Or read any disk like I said, no special driver needed. At the time, this was novel, you couldn't just "do it with everything". Current versions of Windows Server have it built in, but that's at the block level and you CAN'T just stick a disk from the pool in another machine and read it. Most NAS devices support JBOD and various RAID levels, not all do drive pooling. Performance - seems to be a complete non-issue as I easily saturate wired Gb ethernet connections copying files to and from the server, and it can stream multiple HD streams simultaneously - with 5400 RPM low power drives, only the OS system disk is a 7200 RPM drive.Guess I am just lucky, plenty of drives, 9 years, only one ever failed. No data loss. Yes, similar to a RAID 5 in that if 2 drives fail at once I will lose data - but not ALL data, just those files that happened to have other copies on the two failed drives. That's significantly better than a RAID 5 when 2 disks fail. And since with one failure it doesn't have to rebuild the entire pool, just make an extra copy of the files that happened to be on the failed drive, recovery time is greatly reduced from a RAID 5 rebuild time, again reducing exposure time. I can read/write it from my Linux box, it just doesn't have access to the backup features, those are limited to Windows and OSX.No, it's not perfect, but it has been a solid, stable, and very reliable option. Especially since it's ALSO backed up outside of my house - and I have done test restores so I am confident my choice of backup providers is reliable. The only thing actually on the server that is not replaceable (with varying degrees of effort) are my photos. Should I lose all my MP3's i COULD pull all my CDs out and rip them all again. Though naturally I would like to avoid that.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 14, 2017, 08:23:27 pm
content: Quote from: rrinker on April 14, 2017, 08:05:07 pmFor starters, you've been very lucky. As far as blue screening over drive failures, yes, Windowswill, even for non-OS drives. Been there, done that.QuoteThat very much depends on the number of drives you're using. And it's fairly unpredictable, which just makes matters worse.How do youknowyou've suffered no data loss? Is consistency checked across the duplicates? Would it blindly propagate corrupt data when a drive is changed out?

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 15, 2017, 12:51:53 am
content: I've not looked at getting into virtualization or even the need for media playing. If I want a media player, I'm more inclined to get a separate box for that and just use this setup as a file server.At this point I'm only looking for NAS. I'd like to implement 4 x 4TB drives with two of these set up for RAID 1 and the other two as non RAID. At some point down the track, I might consider implementing a local web server - but I'll need to swat up before diving into that.I've found a couple of used N54L HP microservers at prices that are appealing. I'd have to get the drives of course, but the box seems useful and appears to have some expansion options.Anybody have any reservations about the N54L?

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 15, 2017, 12:57:50 am
content: Quote from: Brumby on April 15, 2017, 12:51:53 amLimited expansion (1 x16, 1 x1 PCI-E 1.1, lose the x1 if you want the OOB management card.. should you manage to find one), single gigabit ethernet, no AHCI by default, no FBS. Underwhelming CPU.Takes unregistered ECC DDR3 only, which is a little costly.That said, my slow old N36L still soldiers on with a total of 12 storage drives connected to it.Great option if you're willing to do some of the work yourself.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 15, 2017, 01:20:21 am
content: OOB management isn't going to be an issue. The single gigabit ethernet port is not attractive, but in reality I don't think it is going to be much of an impact (for the foreseeable future at least). One of the units I'm looking at already has 8GB RAM. The CPU feels like a weak point for the future, but for my NAS needs today, I don't see it being a problem.One of the units has an SSD with CentOS 7 installed - which I know nothing about. Opinions?I'm not against doing a bit of work myself - it's just traversing the learning curve on new things where I am a bit apprehensive ... especially when we are talking about data storage.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 15, 2017, 01:21:27 am
content: Scrap it and start over, applies to any shipped OS. You didn't install it, you can't trust it.If you're not familiar with setting this stuff up then use something like FreeNAS.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 15, 2017, 01:26:21 am
content: Quote from: Monkeh on April 15, 2017, 01:21:27 amThat just seemed so obvious when you said it.In fairness, I must say every box I've brought into my network has been built up from bare disks. Seems like a good approach to maintain.

author: rdl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 15, 2017, 02:01:40 am
content: I have two Microservers, N36L and N54L. They were designed to be small office file servers. The built in video is adequate, but not for a media server. If all you want one for is a basic NAS, none of their limitations will be noticed. I've never really needed to put anything in the extra slots. I did have an add in video card in the N36L at one time and another time I considered adding a 2 port NIC to the N54L to try out pfSense.I'm believe they will work with standard memory, but if you decide to try FreeNAS spend the extra and get ECC. FreeNAS loads into memory on start up and runs from there almost completely. Once running it has little need for a disk drive. A standard flash drive works fine for this OS. I use two mirrored, 16 GB each, though a single 8 GB is supposed to work with the version I have.

author: Scrts
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 15, 2017, 02:07:06 am
content: I've once found QNAP TS-251A on Amazon bundled with two 3GB Seagate NAS drives:https://www.amazon.com/TS-251A-personal-direct-display-TS-251A-2G-US/dp/B06X9DKGMW/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1492221769&sr=8-1&keywords=qnap%2Bts-251a&th=1The catch was that Amazon made a mistake and priced it for bare NAS only. So I've got lucky.Now in general, this NAS is perfectly OK for home use. It has HDMI, but I don't use it. Upload/Download speeds are OK. It can also transcode. If I want to get more - I can ger HTTP server with SQL on it or just click to install Wordpress. As far as a backup space for photos and movies - works very well.ANd I am too old and don't have time for FreeNAS DIY anymore. I need something solid, with warranty, support and upgrade capabilities for future.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 15, 2017, 02:13:49 am
content: Quote from: rdl on April 15, 2017, 02:01:40 amYes, I believe non-ECC will work, but if you're going to all the effort of a dedicated NAS, ECC's worth it. I refuse to fit non-ECC to any machine capable of taking ECC unless the cost is prohibitive. In the case of the majority of semi-recent equipment that's registered DDR3, which is so cheap it's not funny.Those extra slots come in handy if 4 drives isn't enoughSadly there's very, very few usable eSATA cards and the prices there are already horrific enough, moving to SAS is enough to scar you for life.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 15, 2017, 03:08:31 am
content: This unit has 8GB RAM already installed. Don't know what sort, but I won't be planning on replacing it at this point. If it's ECC, then bonus!There's also an eSata connection on the back, which I've seen being used for a 6th drive - just run the cable back inside the box for a self-contained solution. That's a nice option.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 15, 2017, 03:10:20 am
content: Quote from: Brumby on April 15, 2017, 03:08:31 amBy default it's not hot-pluggable (thanks, HP, real clever). And it'll never do FBS, which means in practical terms, it is one drive only.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 15, 2017, 03:55:36 am
content: Non hot swap/pluggable isn't an issue for me - at least at the moment.FBS?

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 15, 2017, 03:58:55 am
content: Quote from: Brumby on April 15, 2017, 03:55:36 amWell, it'll be a right pain when you get around to plugging something in.. Thankfully, there's a fixed BIOS around.QuoteFIS (Frame Information Structure) Based Switching. Required for port multipliers to be of any practical use whatsoever. Without it, you may as well use USB. Again, only an issue if you want to use multiple external drives, but worth mentioning.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 15, 2017, 04:11:46 am
content: There was mention of an updated BIOS and hot-swap. Might check into that if I get it.Thanks for the FBS explanation ... I was getting some rather bizarre offerings through Google....There are no plans for stringing up multiple external disks. Just taking it as one is enough of a bonus. If I did want to stretch things, I might look at something like an ICY DOCK and a SAS/SATA card and cable... maybe. But if I get to that stage, I might reevaluate the whole setup.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 15, 2017, 03:06:19 pm
content: Well, I have a few more answers. The N54L has 8GB of ECC RAM and has had a BIOS update to allow hot swap.I've organised to check it out.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 15, 2017, 03:08:59 pm
content: Quote from: Brumby on April 15, 2017, 03:06:19 pmIdeal. How much?

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 15, 2017, 03:11:45 pm
content: AUD$150.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 15, 2017, 03:13:40 pm
content: Quote from: Brumby on April 15, 2017, 03:11:45 pmGood deal.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 15, 2017, 03:16:27 pm
content: I thought so - especially when the QNAP box I was looking at was nearly $500 more .....This feels like a reasonable first step.Still need to get the disks - but that was going to be the same either way.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 15, 2017, 03:23:22 pm
content: Other than running their software, the QNAP only really has CPU as an advantage (you can add the other bits, although not all of them at once..). You can buy more CPU than the QNAP has for less than the $500 difference!

author: 3db
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 15, 2017, 10:53:57 pm
content: @rob77First thank's for telling me everything I already know.SO on your definition of virtualisation please tell how you will run windows under Linux or BSD.My posting was just inform folks that you could virtualise windows etc under Freenas.IMHO there are few if ANY file systems that provide the same level of data integrity that ZFS does.

author: 3db
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 15, 2017, 11:21:47 pm
content: Quote from: Brumby on April 15, 2017, 03:08:31 amThere is a bios available for the HP gen 7 microservers that enables lots of other features eg full speed on all 6 sata ports.I don't remember all the details but I do have the bios etc somewhere.I bought quite a few of these units new a few years ago and paid about £100 each.It was a cash back promo from HP.I installed 8Gig of ECC ram and a dual 1Gig Intel NIC.Three of these units have been running Freenas 24/7 for perhaps three years. There have been NO issues with the HP hardware.A couple of months ago I had one drive fail. The server still functioned but I eventually switched it off until I get round to replacing the drive.I also have new Gen8 HP microserver that I also bought during one of these HP cashback promotions.

author: scatha
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 15, 2017, 11:33:37 pm
content: The HP Gen8 is a really nice piece of kit. I'd recommend also getting an advanced iLO license which makes headless management a lot easier (around ~20 USD from various Ebay resellers).A pretty common approach with these boxes is to run multiple OSs (Windows/FreeNAS/whatever) under a bare-metal hypervisor like VMWare ESXi, so that's always an option.

author: John Coloccia
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 16, 2017, 01:32:57 am
content: Quote from: Jeroen3 on April 14, 2017, 09:40:07 amHa ha...well, yah.I got tired of building servers and things like that.If you just want NAS, it's hard to go wrong with Synology or QNAP. Personally, the idea of using one as a replacement server never really crossed my mind. I'm not even sure exactly what I'd want it to do. As far as I'm concerned, the less it does the better!

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 16, 2017, 04:05:18 am
content: Pulled the trigger on the N54L.Now for some HDDs ... and configuration decisions.

author: kaz911
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 16, 2017, 06:24:55 am
content: Quote from: Brumby on April 16, 2017, 04:05:18 amThe Great : HGST V2 NAS drivesThe Good : WD Red (but slower than above)The Unknown : Seagate IronWolfThe above is my opinion only

author: rdl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 16, 2017, 07:34:16 am
content: I know I'm old fashioned, but on hardware as simple and basic as an HP Microserver, what would be a good reason to run something like FreeNAS on top of a virtual machine or any other software? Seems like it just adds unnecessary complexity and another potential point of failure to me.

author: scatha
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2017, 12:47:30 am
content: Quote from: rdl on April 16, 2017, 07:34:16 amPersonally I'm of the same mind, I'd prefer one device to do a single job well rather than shoehorn a bunch of added functionality into it just because you can.That said the Xeon fitted (or retrofitted) HP Gen8s are surprisingly capable. In home situations lots of people use this setup to host a Windows server, Plex (or other media) server, and FreeNAS server under a bare-metal hypervisor. In this case the pain of getting everything set up and running (and navigating HP's dreadful website) can be worth the reduction in the number of physical boxes.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2017, 01:17:33 am
content: VMs make a lot of sense for isolating terrible pieces of software from each other, it makes things a lot more maintainable. 3CX, Plex, OpenHAB, Unifi (Ubiquiti, I like their APs and their interface: I DON'T like yet another independent web server).. Big piles of mostly proprietary stuff which works fine (OpenHAB's the exception, to both really), but fail at co-existing. A bit like Windows, only more annoying.All that gets a VM each, then another one hosts a nice webserver on a normal port which transparently proxies them. Much happier. Getting USB to OpenHAB was the only 'fun' bit.

author: cs.dk
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 17, 2017, 07:24:59 am
content: Quote from: Monkeh on April 17, 2017, 01:17:33 amGet a CloudKey

author: rob77
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2017, 11:56:01 am
content: Quote from: Brumby on April 16, 2017, 04:05:18 ammine is N40L only... but with 8G ECC RAM (but the N40L is more than enough).running 3TB WD RED disks in it (reds are for 24/7 NAS). i'm happy with the drives, however i did experience a disk failure roughly a year ago. someone said the 3TB drives have much higher failure rate than the 2TB or 4TB ones... (but i heard it a long time after i bought the 3TB ones)

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2017, 01:39:06 pm
content: Quote from: cs.dk on April 17, 2017, 07:24:59 amWhy? One more device to plug in and find a place to live, more money to spend - the VM works just fine and the box is there anyway. CloudKey only makes sense if you don't have somewhere to put the controller.

author: cs.dk
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 17, 2017, 02:45:28 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on April 17, 2017, 01:39:06 pmI don't agree - I already got a windows 2008 server running with IIS, Exchange, etc. (An old HP DL380G6) For ease of it, and to use ports as i want to, a CK is the cheapest and easiest solution.If you don't want yet a webserver around, then you'll have trouble finding even a standard router..

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2017, 02:47:23 pm
content: Quote from: cs.dk on April 17, 2017, 02:45:28 pmI don't want yet another integrated server running its own code on yet another port on a single host. It's a mess spreading all these proprietary collections over a single filesystem, that's why I use VMs. And consolidate all access somewhere convenient instead of trying to remember which ports on which IPs.You have a server - CloudKey is not cheaper than running a VM, which costs $0.

author: rob77
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 18, 2017, 08:50:41 am
content: Quote from: 3db on April 15, 2017, 10:53:57 pmyou're welcomeQuoteby running a host based virtualization software capable of full virtualization (e.g. KVM HVMs , virtualbox, vmware workstation, vmware player....etc.).Quoteyou can't virtualize anything under freenas. you can virtualize under a host based virtualization software installed to the underlying OS of freenas.saying you can run virtual machines under freenas is misleading.Quotethat doesn't mean ZFS is the almighty cure for everything.. it has it's benefits but also drawbacks..for example : software raid + LVM on linux gives me all the redundancy and flexibility i need, so i don't need ZFS. it's always the matter of requirements... it's not "ZFS for everything".

author: kaz911
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 18, 2017, 11:30:16 am
content: Quote from: Monkeh on April 17, 2017, 02:47:23 pmIt is debatable if running a VM cost $0,- I got a CloudKey and love it. Less maintenance than most servers need. So yes maybe in real cash outlay - $0 - but what is the value of your time? How long will you spend setting it up? How long will you spend maintaining it? And it does take resources away from the machine it is residing on. It was worth the $55,-i paid for my CloudKey to just have it ticking without me having to do anything really.

author: NivagSwerdna
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 18, 2017, 02:12:43 pm
content: I have a HP Microserver with ESXi and a variety of VMs but.... for general NAS/media sharing use I have a Synology.The Synology apps (e.g. DS Audio/DS Video) and general integration/services is great and far less effort than wrangling with the HP.

author: Jeroen3
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 18, 2017, 05:00:30 pm
content: One of the VM's could perhaps be xpenology?

author: 3db
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 19, 2017, 04:09:57 pm
content: @rob77KVM will never run windows without QEMU.The rest of your "solutions" are doing exactly the same thing that I mention in my post.I'm not saying that ZFS is the answer to everything.I AM saying that ZFS provides the most data integrity.3DB.

author: rob77
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 19, 2017, 05:20:04 pm
content: Quote from: 3db on April 19, 2017, 04:09:57 pmi'm glad to hear you stopped talking about virtualization on freenasthat was really misleading.regarding the other stuff... yes KVM HVM is using QEMU to provide BIOS and virtual hardware to the HVM, i never said the opposite. in fact when anyone is talking about KVM hardware virtual machines (HVM) then it's always about KVM-quemu but everyone says just KVM. (and it's a completely different scenario than your BSD + virtualbox or BSD + anything else).and ZFS has the most features built in into a filesystem, so you don't need other technologies to provide redundancy because you have it directly in the filesystem. but you can't say it provides the most data integrity.... because other solutions are providing the same level of data integrity by combining several technologies (e.g. raid + logical volume manager + journaling filesystem).so for the NAS solution itself.. if you use freenas then it's ZFS because freenas is using ZFS.,.. if you plan to build your own NAS solution, then it's matter of discussion what solution is the best...if you plan to provide pure file system services - samba or NFS mounts.. then ZFS is a very good candidate.if you plan to run full virtual machines (different OS in a VM) then raid + LVM is the way to go... because you can provide raw block devices (LVs) to the VMs while use another LVs for samba and NFS filesystems.

author: 3db
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 19, 2017, 11:38:35 pm
content: Quote from: rob77 on April 19, 2017, 05:20:04 pmIf you want to make a really good job of it you could use Freenas 10 which includes BHYVE so that you could use ZFS and virtualisationIf you wanted to get real serious you could use Proxmox with Ceph and Freenas using ISCSI which would give serious performance and distributed storage.I'm talking more than one box here.The reason I like Freenas is BECAUSE it uses ZFS and it's easy to use.If you are talking about HBA's doing the RAID ie Adaptec LSI etc then I couldn't disagree more.You are aware that a ZFS ZVOL is seen as a block device and that ZFS is best using an HBA that gives RAW access to the disks ?Have you checked out IxSystems website lately ?3DBJoking apart I'm a huge fan of ZFS mainly because of the data integrity.It does have a few drawbacks but it's mature and has a proven track reccord

author: rob77
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 20, 2017, 01:35:00 am
content: Quote from: 3db on April 19, 2017, 11:38:35 pmyes i'm aware of it... and i don't like the fact those volumes are spread across the disks interleaved with other data... good luck reconstructing the data in case of needLVM is much more controllable, actually you have full control and you know exactly which volume is where on the disks (helps a lot during data recovery).i'm not saying ZFS is bad.. just saying it's not the best choice for everything. and definitely it's only suitable for solaris and BSD based systems. the linux implementation doesn't seem very convincing yet.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 20, 2017, 05:06:48 am
content: With the HP N54L now secured, the next step is to get some drives. Interestingly, as well as the 4 bays, there is an additional SATA port on the motherboard and an eSata port on the back panel. There is space for two extra 3.5" drives (or smaller) and means to route power and signal cables. So, all up we have the capability to run 6 drives, plus there is an internal USB port ready to use. For drives, I am thinking of four (or maybe 5) 4TB HDD plus an SSD of appropriate size for 'stuff' to drive it all.The drive selection isn't a big issue for me - but knowing what 'stuff' to install is another story.Certainly, I will want the 4TB drives to be available as NAS storage to the network (hopefully with security configuration options), but it is clear from my musings on the subject that I need to plan now for the future.In that future I'm seeing VM - and I'm wondering what I am getting myself into. Choosing a suitable path is the key issue, since I have next to zero knowledge on the subject.At this point, the potential wish list looks something like this:* NAS* Webserver running Apache, PHP and a few other things* SQL server (to be used with above webserver (but Imightlook at remote SQL)I understand there may be a performance issue, but the load is likely to be very light for the majority of the time. So long as things work and are stable, performance is not too big of an issue (unless it's woeful, of course).This whole exercise will be my introduction to the server world and I am hoping it will give me insight so I will be better placed to make my own assessments and decisions.So, I am now wondering what VM path I should start off with...?EDIT: As this isn't a computer forum, I know I am stretching the friendship a bit - but as stated earlier, I am after helpful input from engineering minds, not the full geek experience. I have had a couple of PMs from members who are sensitive to this ... and if this thread gets unwieldy, I will retreat to the PM route.

author: 3db
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 20, 2017, 06:26:30 am
content: @BrumbyIf you are unfamiliar with virtualisation you could have a play with desktop products such as Oracle's Virtualbox or VMware's VMPlayer.You can install either of these on a windows machine and both are available for free.3DB

author: 3db
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 20, 2017, 06:34:59 am
content: Quote from: rob77 on April 20, 2017, 01:35:00 amI think it's best if we just agree to disagree and leave it at that.3DB

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 20, 2017, 07:38:39 am
content: Quote from: 3db on April 20, 2017, 06:26:30 amI'm not against that idea - but I was hoping to get some recommendations for a VM platform to start with that might be suggested by my intentions and hardware. I would love to be in the situation where I understood the pros and cons of various products - but I would like to get an experienced opinion to give me a head start.

author: NivagSwerdna
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 20, 2017, 10:48:46 am
content: ESXiMine boots from a USB stick for which there is a motherboard socket on mine.ESXi was and probably still is free for 1 server(You should try and get a good amount of memory in it if you plan to run VMs)

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 20, 2017, 11:31:08 am
content: Quote from: NivagSwerdna on April 20, 2017, 10:48:46 amThe system is already maxed out at 8GB (ECC RAM).

author: technix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 20, 2017, 11:33:26 am
content: Quote from: NivagSwerdna on April 20, 2017, 10:48:46 amI second this. ESXi is still free and probably will stay so. In fact even free license ESXi can still join vSphere, just without a lot of nice features.One of the goal of me getting two Broadcom MegaRAID 9271-8iCC to replace my Microsemi Adaptec 6805 and Broadcom 3ware 9750-8i is for better ESXi compatibility. I am upgrading my NAS/router combo machine and a spare server, both DIY jobs, to fit ESXi on them. It is quite risky to put the router and the NAS under the same kernel.

author: rob77
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 20, 2017, 12:56:16 pm
content: Quote from: Brumby on April 20, 2017, 11:31:08 amif you choose to install a linux system, then 8GB is more than enough for NAS features and VMs. i have a N40L with 8G running 2 VMs a bunch of other services and still have lot of memory for file cache (in other words unused).if you choose freenas with memory hungry ZFS, then the 8G will be just enough (actually they state on their page that 8G is the absolute minimum and 16GB RAM is the recommended minimum).

author: rdl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 20, 2017, 02:44:36 pm
content: You have a near perfect home FreeNAS machine, just set it up and forget about it. Buy something else to play around with all the virtualization stuff. 8 GB should be plenty as long as you don't use deduplication.

author: NivagSwerdna
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 20, 2017, 03:46:52 pm
content: Quote from: rdl on April 20, 2017, 02:44:36 pmYou have a near perfect ESXi VM server. Buy a Synology NAS, plug it in and forget about it for your file sharing.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 20, 2017, 03:59:25 pm
content: Quote from: Brumby on April 20, 2017, 11:31:08 amIt will take 16.

author: rdl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 20, 2017, 04:25:29 pm
content: I decided a commercial solution was not my best choice. Spend more to get less doesn't usually work well for me. It may be fine for an average consumer. Something with flexibility that was more or less hardware agnostic seemed to have advantages in case future needs changed. Plus, I already had the Microserver and no other use for it at the time.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 21, 2017, 01:19:36 am
content: Quote from: Monkeh on April 20, 2017, 03:59:25 pmI've seen this. I've also noted that it can be flaky, with varying RAM chips - from not workingtoworking for a while and then having the server lock uptobeing OK. Being outside the manufacturer's published specs makes me wary. A suggested pair of Kingston sticks is going to set me back more than $250 - which is a pricey experiment. It might be an option down the track, but right now it's just not in the budget.EDIT: Just making a note of the RAM recommendation I've come across for this:Kingston KVR1333D3E9SK2/16G (for possible future reference)

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 21, 2017, 01:39:55 am
content: Also, buying extra boxes is not a consideration at this time.The box I have is primarily for NAS, so it must do this - but I want flexibility options. The VM approach appeals to me.NAS is where it will start and other VMs can be added progressively a bit further down the track. Load will increase gradually, so there should not be any sudden impacts. Even then, the current environment is one of a very small user base across all envisaged VMs.The one box solution - and, yes, I understand there may well be compromises - is where things need to be right now.

author: rdl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 21, 2017, 06:25:29 am
content: There are altered BIOS for the G7 Microservers out there. I think one allows 16 GB of RAM and a few other things. The stock BIOS, if I remember right, was iffy with 16 GB. Maybe it would work and maybe not depending on the source. For my purposes, I prefer non-modified. I would not trust a pre-installed OS either, just paranoid I guess.When I built my FreeNAS box last fall I bought 2x 4 GB from Crucial for $55.99 (CT5194093). It's now $90 for the pair, too much for an experiment I think, but I guess it was a good deal at the time.Useless to someone outside the US probably, but Newegg has had some great deals on Western Digital HDDs recently. WD must be coming out with new models. $49 for a 1 TB Blue was hard to pass up even if I didn't need any.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 21, 2017, 08:52:05 am
content: Checked the BIOS:BIOS ID:041BIOS Version:10/01/2013From what I have seen so far, this seems to have the fix for hot-swap. Not sure what else...

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 22, 2017, 04:13:40 am
content: As well as the above recommendations, I've seen a number of references to ESXi being used. Would it be fair to say it would not be the worst choice for a bare-metal hypervisor for my N54L?I've also seen Proxmox mentioned - which is open source.Any thoughts between the two? (Reading comparison reports and opinions is not particularly helpful, since I don't have an appreciation for half of what is said.)Remember, while I am looking for something useful - I am expecting a bit of a learning curve.

author: rob77
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 22, 2017, 09:18:53 am
content: i wouldn't go for bare metal hypervisor.. i would definitely go for host based virtualization (KVM, Xen, virtualbox, vmware player/workstation) and run the core services on the host itself while running only the stuff which needs to be separated in VMs (VPN, testing out stuff... etc..)with ESXi you're pretty limited and to be honest i can't see any benefit, just disadvantages... you need a boot device for ESXi or use one of the disks, you can't do software raid with ESXi - you would have to map the whole disks to one VM and do the raid there and left with no disks for other VMs, or you would need a RAID controller to do the raid in HW and then let the ESXi use the volume for a datastore... furthermore you can't do any network "magic" with ESXi - you can't even do a simple NAT, you would have to run a VM which would act as a router doing the NAT.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 22, 2017, 09:44:03 am
content: These are some of the questions I wouldn't know to ask.Thank you.

author: 3db
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 24, 2017, 01:00:11 pm
content: @BrumbyHow much RAM do you have on your computer ?

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 24, 2017, 02:16:48 pm
content: On the N54L: 8GB ECCTwo of these: