Long life batteries - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: G7PSK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2022, 12:19:34 pm
content: Just had a lab clear out and found at the bottom of a pile a cycle lamp with two Ever ready C size (R14S) silver seal batteries dated 05 week of 1995 still at 1.47 volts and have not leaked. Batteries say made in Britain. Wonder if this is some sort of record.

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2022, 12:32:12 pm
content: Open-circuit voltage is only part of the story. For example, smoke detectors actually apply a load to test the voltage sag to make sure they can extract the required energy to make the sound in case of fire. Kind of a DC ESR measurement.Test it under load of a few ohms.

author: G7PSK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2022, 01:01:33 pm
content: The lamp still lights on the batteries and almost as bright as a new set.

author: staticresident
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: February 03, 2022, 01:06:26 pm
content: Well that sure beats my M1A cells from those dewalt battery packs I salvaged many years ago. I thought I was doing good at 10+ years of age.

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2022, 01:15:56 pm
content: Quote from: G7PSK on February 03, 2022, 01:01:33 pmOK, then it's quite an achievement!

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2022, 02:04:35 pm
content: Quote from: G7PSK on February 03, 2022, 12:19:34 pmThe really (typical) sad part of such stories. Is that you find out the company no longer exists and/or the product sold today, is no comparison, to the quality and long lasting version, from many decades ago.In your case, I attempted to look it up, and it seems that around one year later, production (at least in the UK), was stopped. Also there were many take-overs and things, of that company.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Ever_Ready_Electrical_CompanyQuote

author: G7PSK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2022, 02:39:46 pm
content: Another victim of investment trust companies, Hanson's were very much the darling of Margret Thatcher while she was PM. Now that it is Energiser they are not much if any better than Duracell both brands are trying to get the first prize for the race to the bottom.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2022, 02:57:27 pm
content: Quote from: G7PSK on February 03, 2022, 12:19:34 pmIt's been my experience that zinc chloride batteries in their modern sealed form are much less leaky than alkaline batteries.Quote from: MK14 on February 03, 2022, 02:04:35 pmYes, Ever Ready was the gold standard brand of battery all through my childhood. Unfortunately, it seems they rejected the alkaline battery revolution and tried to stick with zinc chloride technology. They figured people would not want to buy the much more expensive alkaline batteries and would prefer the cheaper option. But of course they didn't recognize that the price of alkaline batteries would come down and down over time and until they became mainstream.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2022, 03:05:01 pm
content: Quote from: G7PSK on February 03, 2022, 02:39:46 pmEver Ready was very much doomed before Hanson bought them. The company failed due to mismanagement--failing to recognize changes in the marketplace and investing in the wrong technologies. Zinc Chloride ("heavy duty") batteries are dirt cheap today, but who buys them? Low price does not overcome a poor perception of the technology.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2022, 03:05:08 pm
content: Quote from: G7PSK on February 03, 2022, 02:39:46 pmIt just seems so crazy, these days. There is (hypothetically speaking) a successful, UK company. Which employs tens of thousands of happy, reasonably well paid, UK employees. All the suppliers, big customers, and end users, really like their company and its products, because of its reliably, consistent quality, and nice business ethnics.The company then gets (perhaps a 'hostile') takeover. The government here, shrugs their shoulders and says "business is business, we won't do anything about the hostile takeover". After the takeover, many employees leave and/or getfiredmade redundant. Production (despite previous promises), gets moved abroad. The product prices keep on going up and up, the product quality keeps on going down, less economically viable (but highly useful/popular items), get silently/suddenly dropped from the product line.In some cases even the pension fund, is damaged or worse.This is easily experienced in the food industry, by just trying their "new, and improved recipe" (where new=cheaper/worse ingredients and improved= means (lower/cheaper priced) raw ingredients). Which typically tastes worse, compared to the original product.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2022, 03:12:42 pm
content: Quote from: MK14 on February 03, 2022, 03:05:08 pmThere is a very comprehensive article online somewhere that goes over the decline and fall of Ever Ready. The company was already doomed by the time Hanson Trust made a last ditch attempt to rescue them.The basic problem was a strategic failure of management, investing heavily in zinc chloride technology while the market was switching over to alkaline batteries. When they did eventually recognize the way the tide was going it was too late to catch up.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2022, 03:21:48 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on February 03, 2022, 02:57:27 pmThat is sad. But in all fairness to the original company. Future developments/markets and relatively unpredictable events, such as pandemics, sudden (unexpected) component shortages, wars, etc etc. Make it difficult to always be 100% right, about things like that. We still have, basically the same (there are some differences), Lead-acid car batteries (which have been around for a very long time). So, not everything changes (except they became maintenance-free).But I suppose, they should have invested some time and money, into alkaline battery technologies. So that if they did end up being the popular, affordable choice. Ever-ready could move into the upcoming market, rather than watch their company, decline, fade-away and eventually disappear.tl;drI think part of it was a lack of forward/futuristic thinking, but part of it was perhaps hindsight, as they couldn't be that sure of what the future would be like. E.g. In the early 1950s, some realized the new transistors were coming along, and would take over the market. But (I suspect), others thought that valves (tubes), would hold out, as the new fangled, hand-made (early) Germanium transistors, were weak, rather unreliable, hated high temperatures, very expensive (hand-made, early on), and unsuitable for higher voltages or higher power levels, originally.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2022, 03:27:02 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on February 03, 2022, 03:12:42 pmI'd love to read that article. Is this it ?https://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/assault-and-battery-the-fall-of-the-ever-ready-empire-a-classic-tale-of-british-decline-by-david-bowen-1494225.html

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2022, 03:53:31 pm
content: Quote from: MK14 on February 03, 2022, 03:27:02 pmYes, I think it is.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2022, 04:02:34 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on February 03, 2022, 03:53:31 pmThanks for confirming that. I've just finished reading it, and it was really good.Each step of the very long story, makes a lot of sense, for various practicality reasons. But from an overall perspective, it (the story) is about something which took (perhaps 67 years, 1914..1981), to build up, and then 15 or so, years (1981..1996) to somewhat completely destroy (as regards the UK, ignoring a tiny remnant), the company.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2022, 04:35:43 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on February 03, 2022, 03:05:01 pmI do. Eveready 9-lives AA/C/D cells at my local dollar store--2 D or 4 AA cells for a buck. "Made in Indonesia for Energizer Brands". They're for applications where I don't need all sorts of power or where the device was designed for carbon/zinc, like a Simpson VOM. They actually work fine in TV remotes and such as well. All I ask is that they don't leak.

author: G7PSK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2022, 05:37:45 pm
content: Thing is Eveready did make alkaline batteries under the Mallory name but the Ignorant UK government made them hive that part off, another case of political medalling screwing things up. Politicians should stick to things like sweeping the roads preferably themselves doing the job.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2022, 05:51:07 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on February 03, 2022, 02:57:27 pmSome Ever Ready batteries were pretty good, while others were garbage. Their PP3 batteries, a big seller in the 60s for radios, had a far shorter life than much cheaper alternatives.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2022, 05:56:25 pm
content: Quote from: G7PSK on February 03, 2022, 05:37:45 pmIsn't Mallory a brand name of the American Ever Ready Company, and not the British one? The British Ever Ready company was originally a division of the US company, but separated early on in its life.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2022, 06:04:44 pm
content: Quote from: G7PSK on February 03, 2022, 05:37:45 pmI noticed that, when I read through the linked reference(s), in this thread. I does seem crazy, because the new upcoming Alkaline batteries needed to have competition. Otherwise, the company (Ever ready), would potentially be taken over and eventually wound down and/or moved abroad. Also, it could mean the upcoming Alkaline battery industry, could end up producing rather poor quality batteries, as regardsleak resistance, which unfortunately, seems to be the case now.I.e. I wouldn't trust any brand of Alkaline batteries, to NOT leak, and potentially damage or even destroy (write-off), the item they were powering.I think governments, would do a very good job of sweeping the roads. As they seem to have so much experience, ofsweeping everything under the carpet.It would be well worthwhile, if quality Alkaline brand(s), would re-appear on the market. Selling, genuine leak-proof (or at least highly resistant to leaking), versions. Even if they cost more. It seems to be a highly overlooked subject area, which most people don't seem to either notice or talk about, in general. Even on this forum, it is not mentioned that often, but it does crop up from time to time, and EEVblog has done video(s) about it.I suspect, it is part of the e-waste, throw-away, don't repair, planet destroying problem. As the (price increase is a very approximate guess) £0.10/$0.135 saved per battery, force the replacement of a, perhaps £100/$135 item, because the batteries leaked, while they were left in it, for the last year, or more.Presumably, it wouldn't cost much to make them leak proof. But I don't really know, as I would assume for safety reasons, if it was too well sealed, it could present a gas build up, and small explosion or even fire risk/hazard.Maybe we (ignoring Brexit), need the EU to regulate a new leak proof batteries, requirements regulation, and hope the UK follows suit.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2022, 06:22:16 pm
content: Quote from: MK14 on February 03, 2022, 06:04:44 pmIt could probably be done with a reduced capacity. For example, a C-cell within a D-cell case, surrounded by absorbent material and sealed somehow to allow for some leakage an expansion between the inner and outer cases without anything escaping the outer case. But then it would be considered an underperforming product.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2022, 06:50:06 pm
content: I've mentioned before in various threads that I think leaking correlates with more active chemistry, in pursuit of higher power outputs. When the chemicals are more active, they are more likely to react and produce hydrogen when the battery is sitting there doing nothing.I've had far fewer leakage problems with lower power, "ordinary" alkaline batteries than with big name brands. Look for something called a "clock battery". Such is designed to sit in a clock for a year at a time with no expectation of leaking and ruining the clock. It can be done.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2022, 07:08:03 pm
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on February 03, 2022, 06:22:16 pmFor me, it would be a worthwhile, trade off. If I really needed the higher capacity, and it was a very cheap item, like a £2.99/$3.99 Torch (Flashlight), it probably would be easily worth the trade off. But not in a £500/$650 higher end, Multimeter.I've found Energiser, to be pretty good (either not leak, or rarely leak). But I suspect the relatively moderate temperatures we experience in the UK, is also part of the reason, why we (or me at least), seem to suffer less from this problem, than other countries. I.e. In hotter countries, that could be a factor, in the deteriorating battery chemistries and/or speed up the problem, considerably.If it is a very expensive item, I try to stick to rechargeable batteries (Eneloop and similar).Another thing, I always try and buy genuine batteries (e.g. Amazon is the seller, not third party or Ebay, when possible/practicable). As fakes is another possible reason why some batteries are worse than others.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2022, 07:20:39 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on February 03, 2022, 06:50:06 pmThanks for the tip (clock type). I must try that. I have to admit, in my case, what usually cases the problem. Is that there is some item, which I have stopped using for some reason, and I've forgotten to take the batteries out and/or the reduction of usage of the item, was an extremely slow affair and/or I put it away (in a drawer or something), with the batteries still inside. Then come back to the item, perhaps 5 years later, and find the battery compartment has gone completely mad with corrosion, and I'm briefly annoyed with myself for forgetting to remove the old batteries inside it.Risk factors seem to be multiple batteries (as they seem to be able to get one or more cells to go at or below 0 volts, which seems to make leaking more likely), AAA worse than AA (maybe because they have thinner walls), once batteries go flat, they seem significantly more likely to leak, and really should be removed. 9V seem safer, but I recently had a leaky 9V (PP3), so even those seem to go, sometimes.Fortunately, the vast bulk of the time, the items can be repaired if required. But if the corrosion (battery chemicals), reaches the PCB, then that can wreak havoc, and make repair, extremely difficult or not practicable, if extensive damage has occurred. Especially if it was Ni-cads involved (which is a slightly different subject area).

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2022, 10:30:29 pm
content: Quote from: MK14 on February 03, 2022, 03:05:08 pmOne more factor to consider:The innovating companies often are the small individually-owned or family-owned businesses. Both Ever Ready and Duracell have a history tied to the P.R. Mallory company which was started by an individual name Mallory. P.R. Mallory company made batteries for Ever Ready in the early 1900's and then later created their own. Duracell was a registered trademark of P.R. Mallory Company1.Individual/Family owned businesses are affected by one more factor -inheritance laws. While I am not sure if this relates to the P.R. Mallory company, Duracell, or Ever Ready, but it sure did affected a lot of small businesses and no doubt some are innovative technology companies.Case and Point: There was a law that held inheritance tax down to earth level, it was due to expire and inheritance tax will go back up to 50% of inheritance. Then candidate Obama announced that if he was elected he would not renew the law. When he was elected (2008),there was quite a sell-out of small companies prior to law expiration.Reference: Company history of Duracell's named P.R. Mallory Co's as the predecessor of Duracell here:https://www.company-histories.com/Duracell-International-Inc-Company-History.htmlFrom P.R. Mallory Co's own company history, you can see they were a manufacturer for Ever Ready in the early 1900's.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P._R._Mallory_and_Co_Inc

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2022, 11:06:06 pm
content: Quote from: Rick Law on February 03, 2022, 10:30:29 pmAs you say, that is another factor as well. The fuller pictures of why/how various companies and industries, became the successful and powerful, size they are today, is probably very interesting.Thanks for the links, they made interesting reading.Sadly, your first link, seems to say that it is uneconomic to recycle one use batteries, really. But they went along with it, because of European initiatives. That is also disappointing. Things should only really be recycled, when it is truly beneficial and economically/resource wise useful to do so.If NOT, the recycling shouldn't be taking place, as it would be just a further waste of resources. instead, other solutions should be considered, researched and acted up, as necessary. In the case of batteries, that solution, might be the promotion of muli-use (rechargeable) batteries. Assuming that the materials and other costs of such rechargeable batteries, doesn't in itself, also harm the environment.E.g. NiCad batteries, introduce more Cadmium, which is potentially toxic and harmful to the environment, so better/safer rechargeable battery types should have been invented/promoted, such as NiHM/Lithium-types and others.Hopefully one day, some kind of very safe, fusion technology or something, can be invented. For truly long life, safe and not environmentally harmful battery/power sources.At least Mercury batteries are mostly/fully gone now, and NiCads are getting increasingly rare as well (but there does seem to be NiCads in existence, possibly for some high current drain applications or other reasons ?).

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2022, 12:30:51 am
content: Quote from: MK14 on February 03, 2022, 11:06:06 pmThis is slightly ironic, considering that mercury was the component of alkaline batteries used to prevent them from leaking, which in turn helped to prevent damaged electronics being thrown away.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2022, 12:56:58 am
content: Quote from: IanB on February 04, 2022, 12:30:51 amVery good point. Pity they couldn't replace the functionality of the Mercury, another way. To keep the functionality of Alkaline (and other battery types). I suppose it is sounding a bit like the leaded/unleaded solder debates. Leaded solder is arguably better, for solder joint quality and product longevity, as regards solder joint failures. But lead is a potentially toxic environmental hazard. So it makes sense to want to remove it from electronics products. Hopefully, one day better alternatives to Lead and Mercury, will be found. Which might be Chemical substances or construction techniques, and other solutions.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alkaline_batteryI'm now worried, because the wiki article seems to hint/imply/say (it is not that clear), that zinc (non-alkaline) batteries, older than 1996, may have used Mercury, to preserve their shelf-life. Which puts a possible twist on the OPs batteries. If their amazing life, is because they have Mercury coating the Carbon section. Then I'd be worried about possibly toxic Mercury, and its possible effects on the environment.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2022, 01:18:40 am
content: Quote from: MK14 on February 04, 2022, 12:56:58 amIf they added mercury to zinc-carbon batteries to prevent leaking, I guess they didn't add it to many. Zinc-carbon batteries made the leakage issues we see with alkaline batteries look pretty minor.... except for the PP3. I don't remember those being a problem, and we used them in a number of things where they sat for a very long time.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2022, 01:32:45 am
content: Quote from: coppice on February 04, 2022, 01:18:40 amThat's true. They (zinc-carbon batteries) were rather bad at leaking, at times.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alkaline_batteryThe wiki article seems to say:QuoteWhich seems to imply that carbon-zinc cells (I.e. non-alkaline AA/AAA/PP3/C/D etc), had a small amount of mercury, to help control battery leakage and preserve shelf life. But I don't find the text especially clear. I've tried the sources, but the mains source seems to be a book. Which needs a login (possibly free), to access and read, so I haven't seen it.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2022, 01:54:04 am
content: Quote from: MK14 on February 04, 2022, 12:56:58 amActually, the danger to individuals from mercury is rather overstated, unless you ingest it. I took apart countless zinc carbon batteries in the 70's to get the carbon rods out of them, and quite freely got the black electrolyte paste and other contents all over my hands. I also played with liquid mercury and dipped my hands in a bath of the stuff to see how it felt (weird, in case you are wondering).So I would not consider a zinc carbon battery from before 1996 to be a hazardous items. After all, they were manufactured by the million.