HUGE thumbs down for Extech.  - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: slipjointed
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2011, 05:28:30 pm
content: edit: 10/22/11, Extech has contacted me and resolved the situation beyond my satisfaction. My response and further details can be found starting at post #39.edit2: 10/24/11, I recieved further contact from Extech, see post #56So,I just aquired an Extech EX505. The meter came with a couple of the screws for the back partially stripped. They don't look like they were stripped by repeated assembly/dissassembly, more like by an idiot with a power screwdriver in the production facility.This morning I called Extech to get a couple of replacement screws for the meter. I asked the lady if I could be sent replacement screws, and she said no, they don't carry any parts besides leads. Then I was transferred to a VERY rude guy in tech, that said even if they did have the screws, I'd have to buy them; there's no way they'd just send me 10 cents of screws like ANY normal company would.He actually suggested that I drive down to Home Depot and buy new screws! Are you freaking kidding me!?!?! For those of you that aren't familiar with this meter, it uses a very specialized type of extended shank self tapping plastic screw, with a sealing ring and thick washer. You can't even buy plastic screws at home depot, let alone anything like this.I asked him what the options were for an Extech owner if the screws were lost, and he said he could transfer me over to repair. Then I spoke with another lady that said she could replace the screws, but I would have to send the meter in and pay a $50 flat rate fee!!!!!Please keep in mind, where I got the meter or whether it was still under warranty never came up here. Since the screws were stripped, no matter by who, it wasn't covered by warranty, so the flat rate repair still applied. These screws are very tight and difficult to remove without stripping, even with the proper sized driver. The heads are very soft, and stripped even more the one time I removed them. Please keep in mind, I've been in manufacturing for my entire career, I'm not the type that strips screws.I am absolutely dumbfounded that a company owned by Flir, who has a large office in the USA, and sells electronics products that are designed and INTENDED to be taken apart occasionally when fuses need to be replaced, does not stock replacement screws for the back cover. I'm sorry, but that is the MOST amatuerish thing I've ever heard of in my entire life.This isn't some no-name meter, it's a supposedly reputable USA based re-badger, and even if the meters all come from China, they have a responsibility to their customers to source the parts that their customers may need over the course of time.If you are planning on buying an Extech, you should also plan on having a big ugly orange and green paperweight, after your second or third fuse change.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2011, 05:35:40 pm
content: Quote from: slipjointed on October 21, 2011, 05:28:30 pmThe sad truth is that Extechisnow a no-name brand. It's unsatisfactory in design and construction as you see from the evidence in front of you.I feel for your disappointment as we all like to feel we have some buying choices, and things costing a reasonable amount of money should have reasonable performance.However, brand reputations are earned, not given.

author: slipjointed
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2011, 06:05:55 pm
content: Luckily I have the means to repair it once the screws finally give out, I'm more concerned for those that recieve one of these meters and don't.The screws are M2.5 x 20mm, but that isn't really a common length in that diameter (edit: for thread forming screws, it's pretty easy to get as a machine screw)I may just end up drilling out the threads and machine some custom brass threaded inserts and just epoxy them in. That way I don't have to worry about it any more.

author: Bored@Work
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2011, 06:31:47 pm
content: So much for their ISO 9001:2008 certification which some Extech guy wanted to sell us as the biggest thing since sliced bread when it comes to quality.Extech sells all kinds of rebadged stuff, and that EX 505 looks pretty much like a QM1323, QM1543, or similar of unknown, maybe Asian, provenience.

author: hacklordsniper
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2011, 06:54:59 pm
content: More and more often i encounter screws destroyed by power screw drivers and oftenly stripped so they cant be dissasembled anymore

author: saturation
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2011, 07:02:22 pm
content: Using B@W point:http://www.extech.com/global/misc/TUVcertificate.pdfI would send an email letter of complaint to officers at Extech, and TUV, who certified them asISO.http://www.extech.com/iso9001.asp

author: slipjointed
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2011, 07:53:26 pm
content: I guess "The Extech Advantage" is that when your Multimeter gets a stripped screw, it automatically converts into paperweight mode.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2011, 08:17:37 pm
content: Quote from: saturation on October 21, 2011, 07:02:22 pmThere's a common misconception that ISO 9001 has anything to do with quality. It really doesn't. All it defines is that there is a paper trail for every step of the production process. Somewhere in a filing cabinet is a piece of paper saying that a quality inspector noted the damaged screws and recorded the date, time and serial number in a log book as required by the inspection procedure

author: slipjointed
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2011, 08:34:35 pm
content: Just to add to the thread a little, I called UEi for fun, and presented the hypothetical "missing screw" scenario.They said that if the meter was in warranty, they would either send a new screw, or even possibly an entire new back assembly, but I could also send the meter in for free. I asked whether it mattered who stripped the screw and if that had an effect on warranty, and they said absolutely not.Then I asked what would happen if the meter was out of warranty and needed a screw, and the lady said that it's pretty likely they would still send me any small replacement parts for free, or even larger replacement parts in special cases.I guess it's not a worry anyways, because the UEi unit I was looking at from the review has threaded inserts, the way it should be done.Looks like I'll be ditching this Extech and picking up a UEi.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 21, 2011, 09:54:56 pm
content: Wow, that's BAD form.Extech do read this forum, but I'll prod them anyway just in case they miss it.And don't those screws have little o-rings on them too?Dave.

author: slipjointed
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2011, 10:18:53 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on October 21, 2011, 09:54:56 pmEven if I could manage to find M2.5 x 20mm thread forming screws as a stock item (which, evidently, is impossible), the washers that back the o-rings are a custom piece. They don't match any M2.5 washer I've ever used.I should be able to call and get 25 cents worth of screws in the mail. I would glady pay for the screws too, if they were even willing to sell them to me.What made me the most upset was that they didn't seem to have ANY desire to do anything past canned responses to help me. I called UEi this morning and they were practically running into the back to find screws for me until I caught them and told them it was a hypothetical question.That isn't the only way Extech borked this deal though... I ordered the meter from tequipment.net on Oct. 10th, and was told the meter would ship from Extech no later than Oct. 13th. I called on Monday Oct. 17th for order status, and was told that the invoice had been sent to Extech, and that Extech had not shipped and that they had no explanation for why.The rep contacted Extech and essentially got a shoulder shrug from them. I went ahead and cancelled my order, because I needed a meter to fix a piece of electronics, and can't wait based upon a shoulder shrug. I ended up having to source it locally.The provenance of the meter never came up once in my discussions with Extech; I don't really think it matters. Replacing a missing screw should be pretty painless IMO. I was under the impression that Extech is a class-act based upon their advertising and subsiding under Flir, but I'm not so convinced any more.

author: slipjointed
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2011, 10:24:43 pm
content: Sorry for the double post, for some reason the edit button is acting up on me.I wanted to add, thanks for the reply Dave, I don't mean to be a negative nancy on your forum, I am just venting my frustrations from this morning.I could return the meter, but this is more a matter of principle at the moment. I'm just used to dealing with companies that operate differently, I guess. Perhaps the best solution is to vote with my wallet and stop whining.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 21, 2011, 10:36:38 pm
content: Quote from: slipjointed on October 21, 2011, 10:24:43 pmNo, don't stop whining, that's what's creates change and better equipment and better service for all of us.Companies are used to sweeping stuff like this under the carpet, and that's what they hope you do, shut up and go away.It's a different ball game these days, the people have a voice!Yes, vote with your wallet, but never stop whining!Dave.

author: elliott
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2011, 10:44:19 pm
content: I noticed the screws on my EX530 were soft and easy to strip too. I had a hard time finding a screw driver that fit the heads well enough that I felt comfortable removing them. The rubber seals on the screws are also crap, I plan on replacing them with real O-rings.

author: Wartex
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2011, 11:04:37 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on October 21, 2011, 09:54:56 pmCan you also prod BK Precision for lying to me on youtube stating that BK879 LCR meter is a new and original design when in reality it's rebadged Tonghui TH2822B, which has been around forever.

author: slipjointed
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2011, 11:14:02 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on October 21, 2011, 10:36:38 pmOk, then alternatively, I'll try to whine as politely as possible.I'd also like to add, if these were some pretty standard screws, say M2.5 x 10mm pan head machine screw, that could be picked up at any fastener supplier, I wouldn't even have made this post.The problem here is that Extech is using a special proprietary screw in their meters, and a special proprietary screw with a head that strips easily to boot, yet are preventing their customers access to replacement screws. It really is just a poor way to do things.If you aren't going to supply replacement fasteners to your customers, then you need to switch to a fastener that your customers are able to source easily.Quote from: elliott on October 21, 2011, 10:44:19 pmYeah, for screws that need this amount of torque applied, the heads are far too soft.Luckily I have a tremendous collection of phillips bits, the one that I found to work best on these particular screws was a DeWalt PH1 insert bit. One of the reasons many of these cheaper screws strip is that many PH1 drivers come to a point, but many cheap phillips screws have a flattened bottom in the cross, so the point prevents the drive tip from seating.If you have trouble with screws, you can buy a cheap PH1 driver and use a sander to just nick off the tip, and it will seat and bite into the screw much better.

author: Joker94
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2011, 11:44:44 pm
content: So what do people think this means for extech and purchasing extech multimeters?I am not far off buying 2 decent multimeters, and from the research that i have done extech were at the top of my list. Do people still think buying an extech meter or 2 is worth it or is it time to look else were?The reason a meter such as the BK precision meter is not at the top, same as the one featured in the 100 shoot out is that the only place i could order one from I would have to spend a min $300 plus postage, this is tequiptment. i understand this practice for international orders but for me it is not financially practical.CheersJoker94

author: elliott
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2011, 11:52:11 pm
content: Other than the screw issue and the annoyingly short backlight timeout, I love my EX530 and for $150 it is really hard to beat.

author: eternal_noob
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2011, 11:58:30 pm
content: Quote from: slipjointed on October 21, 2011, 11:14:02 pmI feel your pain and I agree, slipjointed. But, why not use 3x6mm instead? Just plain pan headed philips screws you can buy almost anywhere and at least one in each corner. Sure, the srcew ''wells'' on the back would be rather large and perhaps not the prettiest thing. But who cares - most of us read the meter from the front anyway, or don't we?Heck, I would give ten dollars extra for a meter with proper brass insert and ordinary screws. Nothing is more irritating than special screws and stripped plastic threads.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 22, 2011, 12:05:28 am
content: Quote from: Joker94 on October 21, 2011, 11:44:44 pmDifferent people value different things differently.Some may think a service and attitude issue like this is a HUGE deal (not to mention poor quality screws) and would turn them off for life.Others might not care one hoot and only look at the bang-per-buck, of which the extech's score fairly high on.The Extech would have won the $100 shootout, but I found too many little manufacturing issues with it, and it just didn't give me a good "vibe" for quality, as did say the UEI one.Yes, I found the screws rather fiddly at the time, but I think I forgot to mention it?And I did strip one of the screws later when I was taking it apart after the canyon trip.QuoteYeah, fair call, it ain't that good, there is fair bit of choice around these days.Dave.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2011, 12:17:35 am
content: Quote from: slipjointed on October 21, 2011, 11:14:02 pmThere are two potential points to be aware of here.The first is that Phillips screwdrivers and screw heads come in different sizes (#0, #1, #2, #3, etc.) and it is essential to match the right screwdriver with the right head. The flattened bottom is typically the result of needing a larger size (smaller size number) of screwdriver. I have never had a problem getting an exact fit as long as I have picked the right size screwdriver. If the screwdriver seems too pointed it is the wrong size for the screw.The second problem is that Phillips screws are seemingly universal in the USA, but basically unheard of in the UK (and perhaps the rest of Europe and other parts of the world). On the other hand a related screw head, the Pozidriv head, is more or less universal in the UK, and yet never seen by me in the USA. The challenge is that the screws and screwdrivers are not compatible. A Phillips screwdriver will not work properly with a Pozidriv screw.This means that products originating outside the USAmayhave a cross head screw that is not a Phillips screw; it could be Pozidriv, or JIS standard, or some other standard. Stripping screw heads is easy if you use the wrong screwdriver for the screw head. Luckily for me I have Pozidriv tools brought from the UK and Phillips tools obtained in the USA, so I can deal with all screws.So in summary: not all cross head screws are Phillips screws, and even if they are the different sizes are not compatible with a single screwdriver.

author: Bored@Work
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2011, 01:09:20 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on October 22, 2011, 12:05:28 amI am rather sure Extech doesn't manufacture the EX505 on their own. Their whole EX 500 series, like the EX530 is just too similar this this no-name metershttp://www.jaycar.com.au/productView.asp?ID=QM1543&form=CAT2&SUBCATID=1060#1http://www.aiworkwear.co.uk/902/1760-rms-industrial-digital-multimeter-beta-from-ai-workwear

author: grenert
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2011, 01:13:30 am
content: Nice summary, IanB. I learned this the hard way stripping some Pozidriv screws on an old Fluke meter. I now have both Pozidriv and JIS setsHere's a Pozidriv head (note the "X" on the head at 45 degrees to the cross), and a JIS screw (with small dot on the head):

author: slipjointed
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2011, 03:37:17 am
content: Quote from: IanB on October 22, 2011, 12:17:35 amI've worked in electronics manufacturing my entire career, so I've seen an ungodly number of different fasteners and drivers. I have standard phillips, Pozidriv, JIS, Frearson, mixed Pozi, as well as quite a few in other drive styles.What you are saying is perfectly legitimate, assuming everyone is playing nice and abiding by manufacturing standards. The problem is, oftentimes cheap Chinese screws don't match *any* drive standard. They're just mystery China drive. Same goes for cheap insert bits and screwdriver tips.Some of these less reputable manufacturers think "plus shaped" is a good enough standard for their screw heads.While the majority of any given driver size, such as PH1, are very similar, there can sometimes be very large differences between different manufacturers. My PB swiss and Wiha drivers have fairly different tapers on the PH2 tips. I wish I could find it, but a guy on a tool forum I frequent posted pictures of a bunch of different premium screwdriver tips next to each other... not one was identical. They were all close to identical, but each would have a slightly different fit characteristic.Because of the problems encountered with cheap screws, sometimes it's best to just have a few of each drive type from different manufacturers.The best way to preven screw stripping in addition to knowing your fasteners, is to purchase quality fasteners and drivers from reputable companies that keep good quality control during manufacturing... without that, all the special screwdrivers in the world won't save you.

author: hacklordsniper
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2011, 05:07:22 am
content: For fun i e-mailed fluke and asked about screw replacement on on my scopemeter which "i stripped" I allready recieved an e-mail with a "exploded" scopemeter view and asked to write them part numbers to immeadately order screws from Fluke Netherlands and deliver them to me free of any charge. I was also asked to ship old screws back to check for any possible screw manufacturing defect via their prepaid post account.This is why its always better to consider purchasing instrument from reliable, long time players than rebadgers of China crap.

author: Extech
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2011, 05:51:12 am
content: Hi Ian/Slipjointed,Middle-of-the-night greetings from the Northeast US. I'm terribly sorry and embarrassed to hear you got a veritable run-around with your call to our offices. It is unacceptable and we will be discussing it in depth as a learning experience.We want to make it right and hopefully you would be willing to give us another shot. If you wouldn't mind PM'ing me with your contact information over the weekend, we can work with you to expediently correct this and exceed your satisfaction.Back to my teething 14-month-old....Andre

author: Joker94
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2011, 06:29:55 am
content: With the power and standing Dave has on the electronics community and many manufactures, along with the fact that Extech view the forum I am leaning again toward a couple of Extech meters.Times like this i wished i lived in the US for a day, having to pay %25 more for the meter itself, along with the GST charge which is ~%10 and shipping which is up to $40 it is ridiculous and very limiting on meter selection!!! Extech have distributor that are Australian based/ operate throughout Aus making their meters better value for money and affordable.CheersJoker94

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2011, 06:55:21 am
content: Quote from: ARebelo-Extech on October 22, 2011, 05:51:12 amSuch timely follow up is great to see but it is slipjointed who has the problem meter, not I, so I will bow out and leave the continuation of this story to him...

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 22, 2011, 07:18:09 am
content: Quote from: Joker94 on October 22, 2011, 06:29:55 amTrioSmartCal sell Extech meters in Oz:http://triosmartcal.com.au/253-extech-instrumentsThe EX505 is only $135 ex GST and includes a free mains stick:http://triosmartcal.com.au/1854-extech-ex505-heavy-duty-industrial-multimeters.htmlNot bad considering the list price is US$115Prices are MUCH better in Oz now than they used to be! Even the price-gouge experts Fluke have had to change their ways and drop their prices to reasonable levels in Oz now.Dave.

author: Joker94
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2011, 08:02:59 am
content: In one of my meters I had a screw strip, it was one similar to that in the extech. My solution was drill out the lugs inside, fill them with a mixtue of 30min epoxy and micro balloons (I had from my aero modeling), when the glue was semi hard i drilled out a hole a size smaller than the machined screw i wanted to use, screwed the screw in and out leaving me with a hardened insert. This allowed me to do away with the poor screws for some decent machined screws with a standard head.QuoteYeah, stumbled upon triosmartcal.com.au a couple of days ago, in particular the EX505 model. At this stage I'm looking at 1 EX505 and 1 EX330. then i'll have 2 decent meters. With my current project ideas i am in need of decent meters(at least 2 like you say) for power supply testing and so on.

author: slipjointed
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2011, 08:29:34 am
content: Dave,I'd like to thank you for contacting Extech for me, I really appreciate the help. I just wanted to let you know that I didn't post here with the intention of having anyone do anything for me, but I surely appreciate it. I was just venting. I wasn't trying to damage Extech's reputation, it was more along the lines of finding comfort in having other people agree with my irritation.Quote from: ARebelo-Extech on October 22, 2011, 05:51:12 amThanks for your response. I went ahead and PM'ed you some further details. Sorry if I was a bit harsh this morning; I tend to be cranky before my coffee. Truth be told, other than the screw issue, I'm quite happy with the meter itself, and with the accessories it came with. It has a good feel, fast response, and a nice display. My only major gripe- I wish there was an alternate mode for the backlight where it would stay on.I understand that all companies nowadays are trying to offer a better value for their customers, but I can tell you that I certainly would have no problem paying an extra $5 for any meter that included machine screws with brass press-in inserts instead of plastic self tapping screws. It's one of those "weak link" things.I understand the need for the special fasteners on this waterproof meter, but it creates a problem for anyone trying to repair the meter down the road. I bought the meter with the intention of having it for some time.Also, please understand that while I felt the CS staff that I spoke with really didn't go out of their way to help me, I can't say they were maliciously rude. The rude I was speaking of was more along the lines of a rigid, canned response, and the feeling that they didn't have interest or ability to bend a little bit to help out.I just want to let you know that this isn't something they should be written up over, only perhaps think of a way to handle situations like this where the customer doesn't feel they've been presented Door A, Door A, or Door A.Quote from: Joker94 on October 22, 2011, 06:29:55 amI don't necessarily have any problem with Extech's product. In fact, I very much like this meter. The leads are very nice, and even the case it came with is a very nice touch.One of the reasons I posted this rant was because I was so surprised... I've done a lot of business with their parent company, Flir, and so had certain expectations of what would happen when I called them.The other reason I was surprised, was that I had called Extech previously on another occasion for a different reason, and the lady I spoke with went out of her way to help me out.Quote from: IanB on October 22, 2011, 06:55:21 amJust to save future confusion on the forum, I am also Ian.Another easy way to tell that my name is Ian, I also obsess about things like screw head types.My company just hired another engineer named Ian, which is quite nice, because he's even worse than I am, and so has taken some of the heat off.Quote from: Joker94 on October 22, 2011, 08:02:59 amUntil Dave helped me out, I had planned on using my lathe to machine some small threaded brass inserts, drill out the threads to size, and then epoxy and press fit them in, then use standard machine screws.Generally though, I like to try to leave things as close to stock as possible due to my OCD.

author: Kiriakos-GR
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2011, 10:32:39 am
content: Read 534 timesin just 24 hours !! Wow ..I bet that you will get a new DMM from Extech, and hold even the troublesome one !! as spare

author: slipjointed
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2011, 11:05:42 am
content: Quote from: Kiriakos-GR on October 22, 2011, 10:32:39 amI know, I'm very surprised. I didn't really mean this to be a big thread, I had just hoped for a few replies so I could vent my frustration, and then move on. I can't say that I'm not happy with getting help though. I do appreciate it.

author: Magicmushroom666
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2011, 02:28:48 pm
content: I must admit i was drawn straight to this thread as soon as i opened the forum, i think its just the bad news seems more interesting!

author: Kiriakos-GR
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2011, 02:43:42 pm
content: The reads counter spins like crazy, about 100 additional views every 6 hours !!Extech should award the fresh employ who killed by mistake those screws !!A free travel to Greece for one week, sounds reasonable as award .

author: Bored@Work
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2011, 03:03:11 pm
content: The sad thing is of course that those who happen to have a problem with Extech but don't happen to manage to write a posting that happens to trigger Extech's crisis PR management won't receive a similar 24 hour response and remedy. Those are still screwed.Therefore I can't join those who see the response as a proof of how great Extech is. No, this is just crisis PR, and I won't get a hard one over it. How likely is it that Extech will fix the real issues pointed out by the thread starter - weak screws, unhelpful support and lack of spare parts? I'd say chances are slim, because fixing those issues costs real money and takes some real effort.Independent of Extech, I have the feeling that we are in general heading into a two class support system. Those who happen to be lucky and happen to have the means and opportunity to make public noise about an issue will receive support. Normal customers without the those means or without having the luck to pick the right media will be ignored. Do we really want to have a system where you have to start a row on Twitter every time you need to get a company to fulfill their promises?

author: Extech
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2011, 03:08:15 pm
content: Bored,Thanks for your reliably consistent point of view.

author: Bored@Work
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2011, 03:23:02 pm
content: Quote from: ARebelo-Extech on October 22, 2011, 03:08:15 pmPeople have found more clever ways to insult me than you.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 22, 2011, 09:18:20 pm
content: Quote from: Magicmushroom666 on October 22, 2011, 02:28:48 pmFor sure, people love to hear about companies and products to avoid!Dave.

author: slipjointed
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2011, 09:21:34 pm
content: Quote from: BoredAtWork on October 22, 2011, 03:03:11 pmIn all fairness, I contacted Extech for help with another issue several months before this, and the woman I spoke with at that point was exceedingly helpful.I don't think it was necessarily a problem caused by outright lack of concern for customer support... if that was the case, Extech wouldn't have real human beings in the USA answering the phones. I made a pretty snide joke regarding "The Extech Advantage" but to be completely honest, holding an advantage in this market is the only way a company has a snowball's chance in hell of staying in business.We have to understand that most CSR's have a certain scope of problems they're trained to deal with. It was quite obvious by my interaction with them, that this was a new one, at least for these two CSR's. They were essentially stumped.The important thing here is not what happens with me, but what happens with the next person who calls for a replacement screw. Andre told me enough in his email to me, that I feel at least reasonably confident that this issue is going to get a good solid looking at.I can't say for sure whether Extech will fix this problem in exactly the way we see fit, but I'd like to give them at least the benefit of doubt now that we have attention on the problem.Andre said a couple things in his email that rang true to me, and not as marketing speak. For companies that are in the import market, there's only so many things besides adequate performance that can make them stand out amongst the crowd. One is packaging, another is color scheme and accessories, and finally, customer service and support.In a situation where customer support breaks down, so does the advantage that company holds, and the sales along with it. Issues like this, although small on their own, are deadly serious when added together and placed beside a company's reputation.I'm not going to lie, I'm pretty damn happy that Andre is taking care of me (very, very well I might add), but I'm certainly not letting it cloud my judgement in this situation. Andre bought my good will and gratitude by helping me out, but he bought my trust in his company's intentions, with what he told me in his email.Quote from: EEVblog on October 22, 2011, 09:18:20 pmYeah, the "drive by slowly and stare at the car crash" factor is incredibly influential in most human beings.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 22, 2011, 09:26:29 pm
content: Quote from: BoredAtWork on October 22, 2011, 03:03:11 pmOf course.QuoteOne thing is for sure, it's more likely than it was a day ago!QuoteYou are correct, but your idea for a better system is?Let me guess, companies should just provide good service and products, and take everyone's complaint equally seriously, because that's the right thing to do, end of story, right? Yeah, like that's going to happen in big business without a fight...Before the communications revolution, and companies taking public feedback seriously (PR crisis or not, the reason is ultimately not important),everyonegot screwed, and there was evenlesschance of things getting fixed.Would you rather go back to that system?At least I see progress here.The squeaky wheelalwaysget the oil. That's as true now as it was last century, or last millennium.Dave.

author: SgtRock
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 22, 2011, 09:43:02 pm
content: Greetings EEVBees"--Wow, what a great thread. Major kudos to DJ and slipjointed for sorting this one out. I just wanted to add that I have had very good results buying pieces and parts from Fluke in Oregon, even for old, out of warranty equipment."There are two possible outcomes: if the result confirms the hypothesis, then you've made a measurement. If the result is contrary to the hypothesis, then you've made a discovery." Enrico FermiBest RegardsClear Ether

author: Kiriakos-GR
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2011, 09:50:11 pm
content: Quote from: slipjointed on October 22, 2011, 09:21:34 pmI have the feeling that my English had greatly improved !!I got the understanding of this joke by the first read . Lol

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 22, 2011, 10:18:54 pm
content: Quote from: BoredAtWork on October 22, 2011, 03:03:11 pmThe sad thing is that all too often public ranting has to become the trigger for resolution and or policy improvement.QuoteI'd argue that it costs more to have such issues and reputations evolving around any business. Sure clueless accountants with 12 month long mindsets can always argue that screwing over the public is good business, but in a time when market competition and product feedback is global, poor support is ultimately corporate suicide.QuoteThis has always been the case, those capable of expressing their issues sanely and concisely will always get better results. Using media to express concern is good sense, overdoing it and carrying on like a pork chop just serves to have your issue filed into the folder marked "nutjobs". Those able to express themselves rationally will usually triumph over those who cannot.

author: slipjointed
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2011, 10:33:07 pm
content: One more thing I feel needs to be said... sqeaky wheel or not, there aren't many companies that would be actively willing to come to a small message board and interact with customers on the front lines.Regardless of your feelings regarding the motivation behind it, I feel Extech at least deserves credit for that. It is really a nice that they are willing to interact with their end users in a positive and productive manner... and most importantly, listen to and note our complaints with intention of addressing them.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 22, 2011, 11:00:13 pm
content: Quote from: slipjointed on October 22, 2011, 10:33:07 pmThey are doing so for their benefit and not yours. And there is nothing wrong with that. Extech will do themselves more good from such low cost measures than they can hope to achieve from their current (and somewhat annoying) saturation marketing via twitter.To their credit at least Extech are making efforts to embrace new media, but seriously am I supposed to be impressed with extech instrument based ambient temperature reports from places I'm nowhere near? I'm keen to see actual news from them, but not if its buried amongst all this other crap. @extech risks losing, not gaining. interest regardless of any potential prize.

author: slipjointed
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2011, 11:05:49 pm
content: Something that needs to be realized though, is that as people's attention spans shrink, so does the amount of time a company has to grab one's attention with their marketing.Nowadays we have so many things grappling for our attention, that many companies have no choice but to infiltrate social media and other forums (including message forums) if they want to get the word out in an effective manner.I'm seeing more and more marketing based on small bursts scattered across a large area, as opposed to large or long ads.I'm not saying that coming here to help isn't to Extech's benefit, but to be honest it's more realistically to mutual benefit... Extech's, and their customer's.I was more speaking along the lines that many companies haven't "caught up" so to speak, and couldn't be less interested in customers complaining about screw heads. Sure they do fine, but the business model of a firewall between the decision makers and the public, is not going to be effective for much longer, based on what consumers nowadays expect from their products and the companies selling them.

author: Kiriakos-GR
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2011, 10:33:20 am
content: Read 873 timesI am keeping the scoreI have be helped by Fluke few months back, and it was about an major technical issue.Dave helped me out by contacting his contacts, and after that, the Fluke factory acted with the speed of the light to solve the problem.By participating in web forums or to be a member in organizations that protects the consumers rights,its the teamwork idea that the consumers have to invest at, so to work out for them at any emergency.There is many sqeaky wheels out there, and the one of the EEV is the softer one.As European I have large sqeaky wheels in the European committee, but they do not move that fast.I would expect that Extech with one so well organized sales network in USA, that it would be less hard to sort out things with out any noise at all.Its a surprise to me as European that things did not worked as expected.I would be more forgiving to Extech if there was an similar issue in Europe, because their network is not that strong in this area of the planet.

author: scalar_strings
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: October 23, 2011, 04:48:35 pm
content: Quote from: slipjointed on October 21, 2011, 07:53:26 pmYou are closer to the truth than anyone will realize. My misfortune with this dysfunctional brand involved an EX570 shipped from the manufacturer. Not a good sign of quality when the meter was defective fresh out of the box. The first indication was the malfunction of a specific and rather basic meter measurement ability. From there I started to notice severe instabilities/inaccuracies on all voltage and resistance measurements. When compared to a rather cheap yet accurate meter it became apparent the level of quality defect that I had received.After sending an email to Extech it was a few days before someone replied. Long story short, the meter was deemed "scrap in field" and a suitable replacement was shipped out. My postmortem of the "scrap" meter indicated a totally abysmal level of solder quality. For those familiar with the IPC J-STD it was easily less than class-1, perhaps class-0 if such a thing existed. The unit is a test escape that was allowed out the door. I have updated friends and colleague's as to the outcome and warned many to avoid Extech products which would also include FLIR as well.When it comes to test equipment that is in contact with high voltages a lack of quality can be fatal. Only time will tell if there have been enough fatalities for a class-action suit. I can only comment on the dmm's and ir temp guns as my experience with other Extech products is limited. The replacement dmm started having issues after about a month or two. The functions affected are minimally used so it is somewhat tolerable, although a nice example to show people. Sent an email which was totally ignored, why am I not surprised. Did I mention that both meters were used in a non-production environment? Here endeth the lesson...

author: SgtRock
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 24, 2011, 02:25:54 am
content: Dear Scalar_strings:--I am sorry you are having trouble with your EX570. Looking at the data sheet (which I have posted below) it seems like a lot of DMM for just $250+-. I can see why you bought one. Since you have a 3 year warranty, you should be alright, if you can ever get one that works. You may have to call them on the phone to get a real response, as it looks like they have a back office problem.--Once you get to them, I would strongly request that they restart the 3 year warranty each time they replace a factory defective unit. Best of luck, and tell us more about the IR feature, if you care to.http://www.extech.com/instruments/resources/datasheets/EX570data.pdf"The biggest competitive advantage is to do the right thing at the worst time." Bill & DaveBest RegardsClear Ether

author: slipjointed
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2011, 02:43:12 am
content: Quote from: scalar_strings on October 23, 2011, 04:48:35 pmJust so you know, I intend this comment to be completely neutral, I'm just rattling off some observations.Positive online reviews for test equipment brands other than Fluke seem to be few and far between.I generally hate analogies, but maybe this one might work... if you look at tool brands, Snap-on is absolutely swamped with glowing reviews, a gazillion likes on facebook; essentially the company is surrounded by a swarm of dedicated fans just dying to evangelize the product. The brand has huge name recognition in the public, and it shows.Then you look at a brand like Wright... they've been in business for 80 years, build 100% USA made tools that are absolutely superb quality, supply for the US military and industrial markets, but you search online for reviews, and it's like they don't exist.It seems for some reason that companies that don't have significant public brand recognition, recieve very few positive reviews on the internet... even if they sell a massive amount of product.For some reason, people love to write about how much they love their Snap-on, but not their Wright. They love to write about how much they love their Fluke, but not their Extech or BK.It's not really that simple and the analogy is a rough fit, but I hope you get where I was going with it.

author: PetrosA
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2011, 04:36:28 am
content: Quote from: slipjointed on October 24, 2011, 02:43:12 amI think there's something in human nature that only allows most people to see one "great" thing of a kind. We want Mac or PC to be best, we want there to be a #1 between Canon and Nikon, or Fluke over the rest, or Snap-on or DeWalt or Mercedes ad infinitum. Once the greatest is seen to be on the same level (even the highest) as another contender they both lose some value and take on a more generic quality. If Agilent really can give Fluke a run for their money, Fluke loses it's magic for thousands of users. Does it mean that they're any worse than they were before? Not a bit. But that magic quality is prized by the marketing people for sure because you're way harder to compete against when you have it.

author: slipjointed
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2011, 06:35:43 am
content: Quote from: PetrosA on October 24, 2011, 04:36:28 amYour entire post makes a great point, but I bolded what I considered the most notable.Some people are so focused in on the brand images they aspire to emulate in themselves, that telling them anything that contradicts their own personal view of the product landscape, is essentially the same as telling a child that santa claus or the tooth fairy doesn't exist.I actually know a couple engineers that couldn't admit to themselves that Flukes were being made in China, formonthsafter I showed them the first "Made in China" stamped unit. Their perception of the brand was so strongly ingrained into their psyche, that it actually was causing distortion of their perception of reality.RDF or "Reality Distortion Field" was a term coined probably somewhat jokingly about Steve Jobs, but I find it to be avery realphenomenon.Fluke has a monumentally powerful RDF, as does Snap-on.I made a thread here regarding "Fluke Discrimination" a little while ago... the short version of the thread: I've encountered individuals so hopelessly entrenched in the Fluke RDF, that theyactually believethat no brand of test equipment other than Fluke can be explicitly trusted, even to the point of trusting Fluke instruments in leiu of calibration papers, where they demand the same for any other brand on the market.I try to keep a very open mind about the purchases I make and the products I choose to use. I have some prejudices that are based on nostalgia, or just for fun, but when it comes down to it, I feel that I have a very open view for the most part.In fact, I find that seeking out the lesser known and unfamiliar, is one of the finest joys in life.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 24, 2011, 06:55:52 am
content: There are other examples of this "reality distortion field" in this and related industries.Take the audio measurement industry for example. Unless you use an Audio Precision brand measurement kit, you are not in the business. Customers simply will not trust a report that isn't generated by an Audio Precision analyser.Likewise Brüel & Kjær gear for vibration analysis.The Seismic industry I worked in is another example. You simply could not design in another ADC on the front end other than a Cirrus Logic brand. If you did, it's almost certain your product and ultimately entire system would not be accepted in the industry.In some areas of the industry, nothing but Tek scopes will be considered, or Agilent RF spectrum analysers etcDave.

author: slipjointed
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2011, 07:15:16 am
content: At my old employer, we bought a shock/vibration test system that was developed by a small local business which was run by a retired Ph.D and a few others. It was a very solid and accurate system, but our customers would throw an absolute fit if we tried to submit any test data from it. We ended up having to send it out to APL and have the same exact tests and data reproduced on their system every time we had a submittal.I was pretty heavily into audio for some time, and I ended up becoming disenchanted with the hobby/industry due to the associated RDF's.Oh well. I switch hobbies every six months anyways.

author: PetrosA
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2011, 12:23:10 pm
content: Quote from: slipjointed on October 24, 2011, 06:35:43 amI ABSOLUTELY agree!It's not the "safe" path to follow though so many people won't go there. It takes more self confidence to do the seeking out and decision making involved but it can be enormously rewarding.

author: slipjointed
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2011, 07:54:18 pm
content: I spoke with Andre several times over the weekend regarding this issue; today I recieved a call from the manager of Extech's technical support department.We spoke at length about my experience, and the discussions he has had regarding the matter with his support staff. It was made very clear to me that this was not a policy, just a lapse in support. I can confirm this personally, because I definitely have recieved good support from Extech in the past.Based on my conversations over the weekend and today, Andre and Extech have convinced me beyond a reasonable doubt that this is a sincere effort to listen to the customer and improve, and not simply PR/Damage control.Although I'm sure there are still plenty of folks with differing views regarding Extech's motivations for aggresively attacking this situation, I have to say that any company that is willing to step up in that manner, is in my mind, light years ahead of a company that is not.

author: Bored@Work
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2011, 08:57:30 pm
content: Quote from: slipjointed on October 24, 2011, 07:54:18 pmAnd you can see in this thread that Extech has no problems insulting and shunning those who don't believe in their dog and pony show.Don't forget, the "help" you now receive from Extech, and the gifts you are getting is not because you have a legitimate issue. Extech couldn't care less, they already demonstrated that to you. Otherwise you wouldn't have had to complain here. They now react because the people here made your issue known to the world and helped you. And you have now decided to turn your back on some of us and fart in our direction by singing the Extech PR song.Do you seriously think the next customer with an issue will get a call from Extech's tech support department manager? The poor manager guy would have to have a telephone implanted in his head if he would have to call everyone with a support issue. Extech is just proceeding according to their PR crisis damage control playbook. And that happens to read on page 42 to let someone with a title call you - after he aligned the message to convey to you with PR. PR maybe even listening in during the call. Do you think that manager guy will remember you in a month? His golf handicap is more important to him than you and your screws are.What you can learn here is that Extech is excellent when it comes to executing PR moves. That is impressive, seriously impressive.

author: slipjointed
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2011, 10:14:59 pm
content: Quote from: BoredAtWork on October 24, 2011, 08:57:30 pmI didn't shun anyone... I inserted that section you quoted as a caveat, so you and others wouldn't feel attacked by my post... obviously it had the absolute opposite effect for you, and maybe for others as well. Perhaps my grasp of the english language and my ability to imply meaning is not as sharply tuned as I had previously thought.I've already mentioned that I recieved satisfactory support from Extech in the past. That was part of the reason I was so surprised in my original post. It's also part of the reason I was willing to change my mind based upon Extech's response.Your claim is that you were on my side, yet the moment I felt that I was fully satisfied with Extech's response, you accuse me of being a paid shill, and therefore accuse me of having absolutely no integrity by proxy. Extech could pay off my mortgage and it wouldn't change my mind for me. I appreciate gratuity, but I'm not the kind of person that can be bought off. I've been around the block once or twice.You don't have any idea what was discussed between myself and Extech's staff over the last couple days, and you believe you have the whole thing figured out. You also aren't aware about the additional communications I've had outside of Extech. That's fine... as I said, there are still plenty of folks with differing views.edit: A little while later, and after having nearly gone blind in one eye from a hot piece of welding slag, I'm not quite so worked up about your post as I was.The bottom line is I didn't intend to offend anyone with the bit you quoted, in fact quite the opposite. I'm gonna go home and slap a piece of cucumber on my eye, and eat some homecooked food.Hopefully we can disagree amicably.

author: SgtRock
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 25, 2011, 12:17:28 am
content: Dear Slipjointed:--It just occured to me what the best feature of quote tags are. I had previously thought that they were clumsy and had avoided them in favor of the use of ordinary quotation marks. But it now occurs to me that, they serve a good purpose, in that they accurately document the quotation, even though the original may be changed or deleted at a later date. I will henceforth triple check rather than double check my posts for stupid mistakes beforeposting.--Also regarding posting issues; Having lost a number of lengthy posts in midstream, I have been saving copies to Notepad as a safety measure. My only problem is that Notepad keeps inserting unwanted blank lines between the lines of text. Can anyone recommend a good replacement for notepad? I find Wordpad too complex for this simple purpose.--Now, to the matter at hand; I do no know why BoredAtWork cannot voice his opinion without getting personal, hostile and distasteful. He used to be even more hostile and often outright profane and disgusting. But of late, for some reason he has reformed and occasionally, even comes across as rational and friendly. In any case, not to worry. I do not think very many people on this forum thought you had sold you honor for a replacement DMM. And, I do not see why any rational person would conclude that you are singing the Extech PR song. Good Lord.--My dispassionate arms length of the latest contretemps, is this; Extech is an honest albeit imperfect company that is trying very hard to do the right thing, and still survive in a very cut throat market place. And, I hardly think that Andre AKA ARebelo-Extech needs a phone in his head, he already has a presence on this very forum. Hardly the move of a "hide behind the receptionist" suit."He was born ignorant, and has been losing ground ever since." Fred AllenBest RegardsClear Ether

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2011, 02:40:46 am
content: Notepad is a disaster. To use a profane and disgusting, but also amusing and colorful, phrase, Notepad "sucks fetid monkey balls". For a better alternative you could look at the free Notepad++ editor.The BoredAtWork post above was so far beyond reason I just dismissed it as the rantings of a lunatic. If you want people to take your bait, you first need to bait the hook with something appetizing.I think Extech is in the position of many companies that outsource or rebadge designs. Are they a product designer and manufacturer in their own right or merely a reseller (I'm not sure but I'm asking)? One thing about Fluke is that we may presume they design and manufacture their own products to their own specifications. Regardless of brand recognition and reality distortion fields, this must be one thing that separates them from the herd.

author: Bored@Work
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2011, 06:06:42 am
content: slipjointed, you did receive here what is called "solidarity" from the people here. The moment you got what you want you decided to no longer need solidarity and claimed a victory. Good luck with your new friends from Extech.

author: Bored@Work
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2011, 06:32:58 am
content: IanB, your mistake is to assume that I want to bait people. It is the opposite, I recommend people don't swallow Extech's slipjointed bait. I have seen PR working in exactly this manner before. Make the customer feel honored by getting someone with a title calling him, and all that bla, bla bla. Take the communication private, bla bla bla.I have even sat in meetings where such things were plotted out. If slipjointed now gets his screws, fine. But trying to sell this to me as the great Extech service revolution? Pull the other one.On an other note, but speaking of lunatics, I would recommend you don't spend too much time with my Internet stalker and harasser Private Fluffer. To support his master Crackpot-GR he went through two or three years of my postings to figure out who I am, but still hasn't a clue.

author: slipjointed
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2011, 06:50:11 am
content: edit: dbl post

author: slipjointed
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2011, 06:51:05 am
content: edit: I had a long snarky reply posted, but I decided I just don't care to go there, so I edited it out.BoredatWork, if you're going to continue to insist on treating everyone around you like stupid children, just let me know so I can stop wasting my time trying to talk to you. I'm a grown man and a respected professional, and I don't need my integrity and decision making abilities questioned by the likes of you.I doubt the rest of the members of this board appreciate your implication that they're also too stupid to come to a conclusion on their own regarding the statements I've made in this thread.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 25, 2011, 07:47:41 am
content: Quote from: BoredAtWork on October 25, 2011, 06:32:58 amThey are both masters and pointing insult then running to momma when called on it. Put the fools on ignore, and if you dont log off the only traces of them are what some poor unfortunate has quoted assuming them to be capable of rational debate. If people didn't quote these idiots I'd have no reason to even remember they exist.I'm on the fence re the Extech service thing, I've learnt to expect little, assume they wont care and everything you get after that is a bonus. I saw some good things in their final responses to SJ, but things like that don't gravitate off down to the salary slaves and phone droids overnight.I got a couple of Extech meters of another forum member and they aren't too bad they aren't Flukes but they aren't priced like them either. They look deceptively like Jaycar nasties but have better specs. I suspect there is a hell of a lot of badge engineered models each built to a price point but made to look alike. Ultimately this draws all the product down to the reputation of the cheapest model.I wouldn't expect much in the way of service for any device of any brand that retails for under $500, it's just commercial reality. We want service but in reality we don't want to pay the cost of it. Just look at some of the genius review comment we see. "Almost the same features as the name brand and a quarter of the cost" What these self appointed geniuses haven't considered is the availability of service and the life of service spares. But hell any fool can have an opinion some even bother to have three.Many of the big brand reputation are built on years of this kind of service, but sadly with merger and takeovers and just plain dumb management several are dropping their standards.All the bleating and bouncing off walls in the world isn't going to change the fact that individual purchases of low dollar items is going to involve some risk.

author: slipjointed
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2011, 08:05:44 am
content: Quote from: Uncle Vernon on October 25, 2011, 07:47:41 amWhat has been said here is a tiny, tiny fraction of the conversations I've had over the past few days.BoredatWork thinks he has a clue what those conversations involved and who they were with, but I can assure you that he truly doesn't.I'm not a person that will change my opinion for a backlit plastic box. I am certainly not a person who will change my opinion for run-of-the-mill PR speak.

author: SgtRock
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 25, 2011, 08:38:14 am
content: Dear IanB & Slipjointed:--Thanks for the tip on Notepad++, I will give it a test install.--I own a couple of plain old (no Roman numeral) Fluke 87s, one recently calibrated, one not, both of which are well within spec. I got them both at a very good price by following DJs advice, and biding my time on eBay. Other than periodic inspection and cleaning these things are nearly indestructible. I have had to replace the elastomeric connectors in one, but the parts are reasonably priced, and easily available. I have never read of someone having an unreasonable amount of trouble with a Fluke. I only read of people making miraculous repairs to extremely old and out of service instruments. I highly recommend purchasing old Flukes as a backstop to your newer and fancier instruments. Did I forget to say Fluke, Yea.--Now, to the unfortunate comments by BoredAtWork; Once again we see that he just cannot tolerate anyone disagreeing, even accidentally. I have been politely encouraged by our gentle moderators to ignore troll-like behavior. For the most part I have done this, with an occasional gentle chiding being the exception. But, these repeated attacks on peoples integrity and character and references to their sexual proclivities verge on abuse, it seems to me, and so, unfortunately must be addressed:--BoredAtWork makes the veiled pseudonymous charge that I in combination with Kiriakos are stalking him and have undertaken to ascertain his real identity. This I deny. Furthermore, I swear upon my sacred honor that I will not at anytime stalk anyone or attempt to ascertain their identity, whereabouts, employer, school, etc. Nor will I assist or coverup for anyone doing so at anytime. If I ever become aware of such activity, I will report it immediately.--BoredAtWork further charges that I went through several years of his postings (in order to ascertain his identity). Now, I did indeed review his postings, but only to document his repeated resort to lurid, obscene and disgusting attacks on those who had the temerity to disagree. I am well aware that I am making a permanent record when I post on this forum, and so I try to keep a civil tongue in my head. This has been shown to be a good practice, when, after having been proven wrong, I have had to eat crow. Eating one's own words is so much easier when they are kind and reasonable. I recommend it to all. This also has the advantage, that, should someone at sometime review all of my postings, they will not be able to summon up a list of my scurrilous, unhinged, profane and obscene ravings to embarrass me with. I so dislike being taken down a peg or two, and having my hide nailed to the barn door."Oh, it offends me to the soul to hear a robustious periwig-pated fellow tear a passion to tatters, to very rags ... it out-Herods Herod. Pray you avoid it. William ShakespeareBest RegardsClear Ether

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 25, 2011, 08:42:03 am
content: Quote from: slipjointed on October 25, 2011, 08:05:44 amI quite understand, I wasn't pointing any bone your way although I can see how some could read events as over-reaction.QuoteBAW is a miserable git, but he's far from a clueless miserable git. Take a little of what he says on-board without seeing it as a personal insult. Yes maybe he could have shown a little more tact, but after having our time wasted by some of the forum fools us miserable gits can get a little prickly.QuoteI'm certainly not accusing you of that and never was. Just understand that not everyone will read things exactly as you do. You are getting some vendor support , that is a great result.

author: Kiriakos-GR
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2011, 12:14:05 pm
content: Quote from: PetrosA on October 24, 2011, 04:36:28 amOh yea ?How about the fact that Fluke / Agilent / Gossen / Brymen / DER EE / all have a real factory, and they care about their production lines.Comparison about apples with apples makes more sense to me.I would be really interested to watch a video from the Extech product lines ..Extech looks to me as another Greenlee chain or ProsKit chain, and so it does not compare directly with the true manufacturers.

author: saturation
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2011, 12:34:55 pm
content: Thanks, just reviewed the ISO certification procedures, all it means is you have a clearly defined process for every step in an organization, but its not related to outcome: i.e., customer satisfaction, higher production quality, or even safety!As for the screw issue, it comes down to you get what you pay for. To quell this thread it seems like a simple matter to mail some screws to the OP.Quote from: IanB on October 21, 2011, 08:17:37 pm

author: PetrosA
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2011, 12:40:37 pm
content: Quote from: Kiriakos-GR on October 25, 2011, 12:14:05 pmI don't understand your response Kiriakos. I didn't make any comparisons between Extech and any other company and I have NEVER claimed that Extech tools were on the same level as Agilent, Fluke or Gossen (in alphabetical order).

author: Kiriakos-GR
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2011, 12:44:39 pm
content: Quote from: PetrosA on October 25, 2011, 12:40:37 pmI just wanted to make a nice RantAnd to point out that, not all brands stands equal in the market so to look as equal sources of admiration.

author: slipjointed
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2011, 05:33:06 pm
content: Quote from: Uncle Vernon on October 25, 2011, 08:42:03 amBoredatWork suffers from the same problem I do... thinking he'salwaysahead of the curve. I just do it a bit more surreptitiously. The more often you're ahead of the curve, the less likely you are to realize when you aren't.I've had extensive conversations with four individuals, and two of those conversations are ongoing and only related to this thread by association (meaning we are having an open discussion of things other than customer service). Extech and FLIR have gone so far above and beyond the call of duty, that it's impossible for me to come to any conclusion but the one I've come to. The possibility of PR stunt started to fade after about the second conversation I had.

author: Mike-Extech
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: October 25, 2011, 07:51:01 pm
content: We clearly fumbled when addressing Slipjointed's issue - no excuses. Sir, I do want to apologize as well because product support is part of my group. I am happy to hear that your problem was fully addressed, and hopefully the level of service ultimately exceeded your expectations.We have an outstanding group in Boston that supports Extech's customers. They take pride in their work and the Extech brand. They're not happy with this incident either and they're using this as an opportunity to review and improve their processes and the resources available to support Extech's customers.Although some of the criticisms in this thread sting a little (to say the least), the feedback is quite valuable. We are listening, and very interested in your thoughts and opinions regarding service, quality, value, features & functionality, as well as the details like "screws". We want to build the meters that you wish you could buy! What would you like to see in future meters?Mike FoxVice President, Product DevelopmentFLIR - Test and Measurement / EXTECH

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 25, 2011, 09:25:53 pm
content: Quote from: Mike-Extech on October 25, 2011, 07:51:01 pmHi MikeThanks for registering and joining in the conversation, good to see senior people taking an active interest direct at the "coal face".Seeing as that you asked:(in no particular order)- Big screws in brass inserts, and high quality impact resistant plastics- Nice big battery and fuse doors- Big well designed input protection- Good quality and reliable range switches (your one's are famously very "spongy" and lack good detents)- Big clear display digits with good contrast (you guys already do very well here in many meters)- Killer battery life- Fast instant latching continuity buzzer- Fast autoranging and updating, with no overshoots.- For the big expensive meters, we want a sense of confidence, continuous improvement, and that it will last a long time and never drift. This means spare parts availability, maybe "lifetime" warranties, and not changing designs all the time so we can build up confidence in a particular model over time (look at the Fluke 80 series for example).That'll do for now!Dave.

author: slipjointed
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2011, 10:04:05 pm
content: Quote from: Mike-Extech on October 25, 2011, 07:51:01 pmMike,FYI I'm still working on the questions you posed to me via email. I'm recovering from a pretty nasty burn today, so I haven't been incredibly motivated.Dave's points are all very good though.He brought up an interesting point... you have to upgrade your products often enough for people to stay interested, but not so often that they lose trust. That's a fine line to walk.

author: amspire
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2011, 10:30:47 pm
content: I think one of the really big issues with all instrument manufacturers is a small number show real pride in the instruments they design. The rest don't - at least at management level.The good companies go to the press explaining the advances, they make sure that user manuals and service manuals are available particularly for obsolete models. The particular examples I can think of were HP and General Radio who both released journals describing their latest design ideas. They really were proud of what they were doing and they wanted to tell the world. They want people to fix that 30 year old instrument rather then chuck it into the rubbish.The majority of companies act like they don't want to know about their non-current models. Not even a mention on their websites. They basically see their products as disposable, and that is they feeling they give to their customers.How do you expect a customer to feel good about their product if the manufacturer really doesn't care less?If I find a company that has information on their website about every product they have ever made, I am extremely impressed.Richard

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 25, 2011, 10:57:02 pm
content: Quote from: Mike-Extech on October 25, 2011, 07:51:01 pmGreat to see participation and interest from a manufacturer/distributor, Mike. You wont find a better place for feedback from a wide range of your potential users. There are some nubjobs amongst the respondents but you get these anywhere and they aren't that hard to spot. The crowd are hard markers but on average pretty realistic.Dave's own reviews are spot on and reflect his experience actually using this stuff. I'm sure Dave would be interest in putting up genuinely new and interesting product for review and discussion. Not YAMM products though.My own feedback on your products over time and in direct comparison to Fluke 80 series.IP rated meter has a good overall feel, solid with little cabinet flexSwitch detent could be more positive,but hasn't been a problem with partial selectionDisplay is good with larger than usual and very legible digits9v battery + backlight is dumb. The short and non adjustable auto switch off makes the backlighting useless in workplace situationsA good carry pouch was included, something Fluke etc could take note of. Don't be tempted to drop these to match a price pointMy only other comment is that in wishing to grow the brand you need more than a colour change to differentiate your own badged product from any cheaper offerings.CheersDavid.

author: Kiriakos-GR
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2011, 11:11:36 pm
content: Quote from: Mike-Extech on October 25, 2011, 07:51:01 pmThe EX505 looks to was made by the Chinese CEM.I will send my advices directly to them !!Sorry for the sting Mike , but at list it is a honest one.https://www.eevblog.com/forum/index.php?topic=5285.msg69060#msg69060

author: JuKu
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 26, 2011, 10:49:12 am
content: Quote from: Mike-Extech on October 25, 2011, 07:51:01 pmHi Mike,Great question! May I suggest you start a new thread on this? I'm sure the discussion would be interesting enough for that.To start (and I'll post again to the appropriate thread, no need to answer here and threadjack this discussion), a couple of suggestions:1) A selection guide table on your web site, with approx. retail price information. Right now, you may have what I'm looking for, but I'll never know, as I'm not going to download twenty data sheets to compare.2) Right now, I'd like to buy an reasonably priced mains power consumption meter with a very low range. In other words: The device on my table is close to the Energy Star requirement of 0.5W power draw from mains in standby. But is it over or under?3) A short circuit beeper, with very fast detection and low voltage (so not to open logic gates, a diode between the probes should not beep etc).

author: ejeffrey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 26, 2011, 02:25:29 pm
content: To re-iterate some of Dave's suggestions that are most important to me, roughly in order of importance.1) Fast latching continuity. I want to be able to drag a probe across a set of contacts and see if any of them contact. Continuity one of the most common things I use a meter for, and a bad continuity meter is worse than useless, it is often misleading.2) Ban the 9V battery. AA and AAA batteries are cheaper, higher capacity, and easier to replace with low-discharge NiMH batteries if you prefer them.3) Machine thread screws for battery _and_ fuse replacement. I personally don't mind self-tapping plastic screws on the main body if you can replace the fuses from the battery compartment, but any screws I need to remove under normal circumstances should be metal threaded so they don't wear out the threads or strip the head.One thing that I find really frustrating about brands like extech that do a lot of rebadged OEM products is that they have too many products, and a lot of the "minor" usability features change from model to model in a non-intuitive way. We all expect that when we get a fancier model we are going to get more counts, better accuracy, and wider ranges, and sometimes bonus features like temperature measurement. However, you might get a worse continuity detector, slower autoranging, or loose the picofarad capacitance range. You may need to look very closely at the data sheets to see this. With fluke or agilent, I can be fairly confident that the basic operation will be uniform across their product line and generally everything gets better as you go up in price.

author: Kiriakos-GR
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 26, 2011, 02:55:28 pm
content: The 98% of the Chinese multimeter, they have slow sampling rate 2-3 times per second.My guess = keeping the cost down.As long they made such slow products, the west world it will keep a distance from them,speaking about professional use .Slow multimeter for students and soft hobbyists, there is hundreds out there.My own positive suggestion to Extech would be to improve their speed about replacing any faulty product,and about the product range that they have , its up to their well payed product managers.To make any new decisions.

author: Excavatoree
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 26, 2011, 05:59:14 pm
content: I'll add my two cents worth.Brass inserts are good as long as they are done properly. I'm not a mechanical engineer, but I've seen many cases where inserts are not fixed properly to the plastic or the plastic is too thin, weak or brittle to properly support the insert. A poorly implemented insert is worse than an average designed self tapping screw into a thick enough boss.

author: firewalker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 26, 2011, 06:06:09 pm
content: They will have to tweak the prices up...Alexander.Quote from: EEVblog on October 25, 2011, 09:25:53 pm

author: Kiriakos-GR
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 26, 2011, 06:43:08 pm
content: Quote from: firewalker on October 26, 2011, 06:06:09 pmOr to tweak the prices down, the magic word is always : competition

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 26, 2011, 08:55:28 pm
content: Quote from: firewalker on October 26, 2011, 06:06:09 pmOf course.Doesn't mean they should do it on all meters though.But one really high quality high priced kick-arse meter in their portfolio wouldn't go astray.At the moment they have nothing that can actively compete against the Fluke 80 series.Look at Agilent, they have designed the U1272A to do that and marketing are pushing heavy on the comparisons.Dave.

author: Mike-Extech
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: October 26, 2011, 09:13:51 pm
content: This is great input and it's going straight to the development team. Thank you!Keep the suggestions coming! I appreciate that these details are important.

author: Kiriakos-GR
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 26, 2011, 09:34:52 pm
content: Looks like that Mike started to like the EEV stings, that's a progress.Mike do not loose that smile !!

author: firewalker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 26, 2011, 11:11:29 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on October 26, 2011, 08:55:28 pmDoes ExTech design DMMs from scratch? I mean Agilent did it, but it;s Agilent we are talking about.I have seen examples of companies that really tried and succeeded to develop kick-arse products and the final user turned the back on them. The sales didn't met the money invested and the company went out of business. At the last moment final user would choose the big name product like Fluke e.t.c.I am not saying that ExTech shouldn't try or can't made it happen. I am just expressing some thoughts.Alexander.

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 27, 2011, 12:26:54 am
content: My suggestions, not necessarily in order of importance.1. AA batteries instead of 9V for better battery life, and accessible with a door attached with brass insert nut and screw.2. Fuses accessible through the same door or separate with isolation dividers.3. A backlight that can be have a timeout, AND no timeout selectable.4. Fast update rate with no overshoot.5. Relative mode6. Fast continuity mode, latching and non-latching selectable7. Big display numerals with a large decimal point.8. A colour scheme that does not hurt the eyes.9. Nothing with less than accuracy of 0.1% accuracy ±3 LSD.10. Low burden voltage on all current ranges11. Replacement parts available for a minimum 10 years.12. Spare screws included.13. Spare fuses included.And, I would be happy to beta test anything new

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 27, 2011, 12:55:48 am
content: Quote from: Lightages on October 27, 2011, 12:26:54 amNow there's a photo opportunity. "Rugged Extech meter survives the rigors, and meets the needs of Astronomy from remote Chilian Alps"

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 27, 2011, 01:21:29 am
content: Quote from: Lightages on October 27, 2011, 12:26:54 amI support all of the listed points in principle, but points 3 and 6 above make me wonder about ease of use? If features are to be user selectable, how should that be done without adding more buttons, switches or complexity to the user interface?There is possibly a trade-off here, but there is also scope for better design. Sometimes you have to think the designers were clueless. For instance, the backlight issue resonates with me. I just bought a meter in which the backlight stays on for about 3 seconds and then turns off again. There is no time to turn away and position the probes before the backlight has gone out. A sensible design would be that if you press and hold the backlight button the light would stay on permanently. Or perhaps if you press the button a second time while the light is on it stays on. But no, on this meter if you press the button while the light is on it turns it off again. It is even in the manual as a feature! Just in case three seconds is too long you can turn it off after one second and save the batteries. What were they thinking?So anyway, the summary is a plea to consider design aspects carefully to support verified use cases, but also not to over complicate things.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 27, 2011, 02:08:27 am
content: Quote from: IanB on October 27, 2011, 01:21:29 amThat can be a big thing.For an everyday use meter, people want something that just works, without fuss.There is a lot to be said for the simplicity of the Fluke 87.Dave.

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 27, 2011, 04:46:43 am
content: Most certainly, no fiddling around is better. The option to change timeout behavior for a backlight could be as simple as holding the backlight button for 3 seconds until it beeps and you know it is set for no timeout. Default would be to turn off after 30 seconds for example.The same should be done for any meter that has auto-shutdown. It should always have an option to defeat the aut0-shutdown.The same could be done for the continuity mode behavior. Hold down the "HOLD" or "REL" button for more than 3 seconds to switch to non-latched mode. Default would be latched mode. Non-latched mode can be useful for checking for noisy switches or very intermittent behavior of a connection.

author: pp_314156
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: November 20, 2011, 02:38:25 pm
content: I have two of their moisture meters, a distance meter, RH10 data logger and probably a few more things. Everything is of very low quality. For example, when I pressed in the plastic tab on the RH10 meter case to slide off the housing, the tab snapped.After a few weeks of logging, the RH10 would no longer download data because the software was convinced the meter was still logging. Software bugs or firmware bugs? Who knows. I then went to exetech.com to see if I could download a software update, but found their website was down (for the last two days).The distance meter was a joke. It is clunky and grossly inaccurate, as in off by several feet. A friend had a tiny Fluke laser distance meter that actually agreed with a measuring tape and we used them side by side.It is a shame that ExTech isn't willing to insist on better engineered products to resell. There are some pretty good Chinese products out there -- my Rigol scope is giving me good service for example. All of the antique equipment I have that was made long ago (HP signal generators, power supplies and frequency standards, SOAR multimeter (Japanese and defunct), Keithley, Racal-Dana etc) still works. Almost every consumer grade electronic item I have is less than 10 years old because most only last two or three years. VOIP phones, Kill-A-att meter, computer motherboards, Extech stuff, ipods, stereos -- all disposable crap.I am curious to know what is missing from modern consumer products that ensures they die young. Do they skip all the static discharge protection, use capacitors that disintegrate, are there problems with surface mount technologies and no-lead solders, are they allergic to fuses ...?// end rant //