Wanting a home solar system in Yorkshire, UK - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: steve30
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 24, 2017, 04:12:11 pm
content: I've been interested in renewable energy for years, but have never actually installed anything. I'd like to have some solar panels put on my roof with a grid tie inverter. I think I have enough knowledge to be able to pick out suitable products, but I'd like someone else to do the actual installation.Do you tend to buy your own stuff, have it delivered, then hire someone to install it? Or do the installers normally supply the parts as well?Can anyone recommend any solar installers/suppliers in the Yorkshire region?Thankssteve30

author: DenzilPenberthy
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 24, 2017, 04:28:15 pm
content: To be eligible for any feed-in-tariffs, you'll have to have the system installed by an MCS (Microgeneration Certification Scheme) certified installer. They'd probably do a supply-and-fit rather than you sourcing the gear but that's up to the individual installer I suppose.

author: DenzilPenberthy
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 24, 2017, 04:29:21 pm
content: You can search for local installers here:http://www.microgenerationcertification.org/consumers/installer-search

author: grumpydoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 24, 2017, 04:48:39 pm
content: Can't help you with your conundrum but have been idly toying with the figures for solar PV myself.Sadly the house faces south and t'missus does not want panels visible from the road so it's going to have to wait.But, for anyone who has recently installed solar in the UK how is the economics stacking up at the moment? - feed-in tariffs are down to about 4p/unit aren't they?I was actually thinking that off-grid might be starting to look more attractive - if you can "keep" every unit you generate and use it yourself that saves you 15p or so which seems like it might be better than only getting 4p to sell it back to the grid.

author: CJay
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 24, 2017, 06:08:05 pm
content: There's a calculator which works it out for you here:http://www.pvfitcalculator.energysavingtrust.org.uk/Their figures suggest a system that'd fit my roof (average semi-detached house with a SSW facing roof) would cost ~4000 and would 'earn' ~2800 over its life, so it'd cost me 1200 to have solar.Seems a bit rubbish really.

author: mtdoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 24, 2017, 06:39:34 pm
content: PV panel prices have fallen dramatically - to perhaps 1/10 or less the price per watt that they were just 6-7 years ago. They used to be the biggest expense on a system BOM. Not any more.This has been due to a huge ramp up in Chinese production of panels. Almost all panels are produced in China now and they are almost without exception good quality with 25 year power production warranties (10-15 on workmanship). In short, PV panels have become a commodity item but installers have not adjusted their prices accordinglyNot sure about the situation in the UK, but in the US solar install companies generally supply the panels. Their system install prices have not dropped accordingly - IOW they are gouging consumers on their quoted PV panel costs.If you want to save money, get a quote from installers with a breakdown of the BOM costs. Then offer to provide the panels yourself - if they refuse, see if you can negotiate on their quoted price.To get an idea of the cost of solar PV panels bought in bulk - have a look at theSun Electronics website. They sell internationally from individual panels to bulk (pallets and shipping containers) with expected discounts for higher quantities.To give you a concrete example, I just recently bought a pallet (27 panels) of Grade A ETL/UL certified 285 watt panels for $0.24 per watt (+$750 shipping) = $0.34 per watt delivered. Just 8 years ago I paid $4 per watt just for my panels!Depending on the location - installation of the system + grid tie inverter + combiner, wires, breakers, etc should not cost more than about $2 per watt max. So adding in panel costs you should not be paying more than about $3 per watt total IMO (though I expect you'll be quoted anywhere between $4-6 per watt!)Unless your install locations solar insolation is very poor - complete payback should be less than 10-15 years even without any feed in tariff.

author: babysitter
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 24, 2017, 10:54:20 pm
content: Sufficient sun on that island UK ? You must be joking, so far in the north !

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 24, 2017, 11:30:59 pm
content: Quote from: babysitter on March 24, 2017, 10:54:20 pmIts not that far north, you can see the solar insolation map here:http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0960148114002857Everything is relative and with the cheap solar cells available you can oversize the array to the inverter to optimise the investment.

author: mtdoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 25, 2017, 07:39:10 am
content: Quote from: Someone on March 24, 2017, 11:30:59 pmExactly. As long as you have the space for the installation. Spending $2k on PV panels today and placing them in the UK will give you more electricity production than you would have gotten spending $5K on panels 7 years ago and placing them in Spain!

author: steve30
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 25, 2017, 04:00:15 pm
content: Thanks for the replies everyone.I did some back of the envelope calculations a while back and figured out that any 'pay back' time would likely be quite long.My reasons for wanting solar are mainly due to be interested in the technical aspect of it, as well as a bit more self sufficiency, rather than hoping for large electricity bill savings.

author: Red Squirrel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 26, 2017, 06:49:58 am
content: If you're hiring someone to do it then I'd let them source it out too, that way they will install whatever brand/product that they are familiar with.Keep in mind if you go grid tie you have no self sufficiency as there are no batteries involved, and your system will not be able to provide power to your house if there is a hydro failure. For safety reasons the inverter will shut off as to not backfeed the grid. That and solar is too sporadic so you can't really power something directly off it as you need batteries as a buffer, even small ones will do.Now what you could do is have a transfer switch and a separate charge controller and separate inverter/power outlet. If power goes out you then switch the solar from the grid tie inverter to your own char controller. It would essentially power a separate outlet or set of outlets that are not part of the grid. You could get away with a small battery bank too. Could also set it up so the grid (and your solar panels, indirectly) keeps it trickle charged.Some more advanced setups will work as an off grid setup, but then sell excess to the grid, that's another way to look at doing it too. If solar is not keeping up, the grid also helps charge your batteries. Basically you're running off the batteries all the time.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 16, 2017, 08:30:52 pm
content: The certification of the system is not just about the installer but also about the brands of products used. Goodness knows why this is necessary apart from people who love red tape and to make life hard. My system consists of 6 250 W panels dumped on my back lawn with a Sonny boy inverter. I managed to bag the whole lot for £930 and considering what feed in tariffs are at the moment I can't see what the point is in paying somebody thousands of pounds to install the same kit on my roof facing the wrong direction for me to earn a pittance. It's actually cheaper to get my 930 quid back by using the power when it's available and when I'm not available to use the power I give it away for free. Batteries are also pointless as the amount of power they will store over their lifetime will cost about the same as the batteries themselves before you even bother to install them and do all of the cabling.

author: Codebird
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 17, 2017, 08:41:04 am
content: "Goodness knows why this is necessary apart from people who love red tape and to make life hard."Because otherwise someone is going to install that £200 'grid tie' inverter they found on eBay and end up exploding the inverter, the local substation, and the engineer sent to fix it.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 17, 2017, 08:46:29 am
content: Quote from: Codebird on April 17, 2017, 08:41:04 amNo, what I am refering to is the fact that you have to use particular makes of panels even and the list is very restricted. It should be that is I have a system I can get it inspected and certified that it exists and is satisfactory for the purposes of feed in. The only reason why a feed in tariff wants the certificate it to prove the system exists and that I don't have a diesel generator in the back garden so that I can sell electricity back for 3 times what I would buy it for.

author: mandlebrot501
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: April 17, 2017, 01:22:19 pm
content: Andy Reynolds on YT....he'll encourage you to DIY.https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCR4zdwiEmU-vvJ8wEExtIQA

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 18, 2017, 01:09:07 am
content: Quote from: Simon on April 17, 2017, 08:46:29 amIts a big world of ass covering and excessive standards that have been happily rolled out:http://www.cleanenergyregulator.gov.au/DocumentAssets/Pages/CEC-approved-PV-modules.aspxHappens all over the world care of IEC 61730, be happy its uniform unlike the electrical safety standards which vary wildly and are hard to navigate on a world market.This is the same as requiring minimum safety standards on electrical switches and sockets, rather than the wild west solar was. I think its now too prescriptive and prevents people accessing solar power but thats how its fallen and the industry is happy with their jobs being secured.

author: moz
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 18, 2017, 02:40:44 am
content: You can start with a gumboot DIY rig running 12V stuff very easily if you mostly want to play with it.I have a 5W/12V panel on the garage charging a 12V/7AH SLA that I picked up free (came with the composting toilet by mistake, we weren't charged for it and shipping it back would cost the same as the battery). 12V/10A charge controllers are under $AU30 from a variety of eBay sellers, the trick is to get one with a low stand\by/quiescent current - 20mA doesn't matter one a 100AH battery but on 7AH it hurts. That powers a 12V LED sensor floodlight (cheap eBay edition) where the sensor failed after a year so I pulled that off and added a switch.Next step up is the 100W panel, 100AH battery and all sorts of 12V toys in my shed. Julian Illet was positive about a slightly more informative charge controller but I couldn't actually buy one ("local" Chinese ebay seller had problems), the amps in and out display one I have is junk so I am reverting to the dumb controller and building a power monitor myself (which I was going to do anyway but I thought a PWM/MPPT controller would be handy). A system like this can be as big as you're willing to buy 12/24V loads to make use of it.At a slightly more complex level is buying a UPS and replacing the battery with a bigger one, then charging that off solar. If you buy a continuous conversion UPS for a bit more money it should run happily off the batteries forever, but they come with small batteries that are designed to be consumables - if you drop an SLA at 1C or more you will kill it, but even one hour runtime is rare for UPSes. The advantage of this is that you're using the power you produce as 240V AC but you don't need mains certification to do it. As well, it will draw mains automatically to keep the batteries at the programmed SoC so it's worth buying one that can have that set low-ish to enable you to store solar for a few hours.We can buy those commercially here, at least from some installers, because they also route around the legislation/power company rules that prevent you having batteries *and* getting paid for feed-in (which are changing, but slowly). But there's no rule against having a UPS on your fridge etc as long as it cannot possibly ever feed the grid, and it's a kindness to avoid turning on house lights while people are working on the mains wiring that feeds your house.But as noted, most of this is uneconomic. Scrounging as many bits as possible is where the small stuff becomes economic, or as in my case if there's no mains to the shed a solar/battery light can arguably be economic (or you could buy a head torch...)

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 18, 2017, 07:47:00 am
content: I am referring to a system that has regular 250W panels that although as good as any installed by installer will not be deemed mcs approved. I have a sunny boy inverter too nothing shabby about my system but some beurocrat with a sheet full of tick boxes wants me to spend 4 times as much just to satisfy their ego, i mean we can't give access to the masses to this solar incentive. Remember as the good ray Charles sang, you've got to have some to get anything. So i just took the short cut and went rogue with genuine kit.Sent from my Moto G (4) using Tapatalk

author: Codebird
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 18, 2017, 10:52:59 am
content: QuoteI built my own 12V PWM charge controller from scratch. You're welcome to the design. Current in, current out, voltage, all both displayed and logged out via serial link. 20A max, though lots more of you stick a heatsink on the MOSFETs.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 18, 2017, 12:04:41 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on April 18, 2017, 07:47:00 amWhile youmayhave done everything correctly, it is unlikely that John Q Public will have thought of all failure modes - particularly those that might injure others or other peoples' property. I'm sure you don't need pointers to the many many examples of amazingly bad installations and workmanship!If it is done in a non-standard way then, if you are run over by a bus and are not able to "hand over" the installation, the next electrician/handyman that comes along might have an unpleasant surprise.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 18, 2017, 12:23:18 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on April 18, 2017, 12:04:41 pmIt's as crude as you can get actually, 6 panels lain on the grass up against some piles of wood, plugged together with the main wires going through the house wall to a sunny boy inverter. While my installation method might not pass MCS there is no point in even bothering because the panels have to be of certain expensive lakes. basically the lazy bureaucrats have decided they need this stuff and picked a couple of makes (yes literally a couple) and put them on a list. So i'd never pass anyway but there is nothing wrong with my panels and no doubt the cost of certification would be pointless. As all parts are CE marked they have no problem with me plugging them in, they just want to make it hard for me to get them to pay the the electricity they are giving away....

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 18, 2017, 01:04:04 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on April 18, 2017, 12:23:18 pmSo, if an electrician/handyman needs to work on, say, a socket, they will disconnect the mains supply by the switches in the fusebox. They will assume the circuits are dead.At that point, is the electricity disconnected, or are the circuits still live with potentially lethal voltages/currents?

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 18, 2017, 01:09:48 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on April 18, 2017, 01:04:04 pmThe inverter is simply plugged into the wall but as far as i know a proper grid tie inverter that this is has to go dead if no "line" voltage is detected. A full blown installation may have it permanently wired in with a double pole isolator, either way an electrician still needs to be aware of the existence of a solar system.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 18, 2017, 02:48:13 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on April 18, 2017, 01:09:48 pmIf I understand you, it sounds like you are "driving a mains plug in reverse".It should be easy for you to test your presumption about the inverters going dead; if true that removes some forms of risk. Maybe unplug the inverter from the mains and lick the inverter's output during the day[No, forotherreaders benefit, please don't do that!]If not, why would an electrician look anywhere other than the fusebox to isolate the mains? Remember, you've had a heart attack or been knocked down by the Clapham omnibus.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 18, 2017, 02:50:56 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on April 18, 2017, 02:48:13 pmA grid tie inverter is tied to the grid so that it can track it's voltage, no grid voltage = no output as there is no line voltage to track, even your £50 crap from china does that as it's fundamental principle of operation of a grid tie inverter.

author: mtdoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 18, 2017, 06:43:03 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on April 18, 2017, 02:50:56 pmYes, but there are also "grid interactive" inverters which tie to the grid but also work as off-grid inverters running off of batteries when the grid goes down.There are also"AC coupled" inverters(seeherefor more detail) which are able to supply AC power direct from standard grid tie only inverters - even in a grid outage - by coupling into a battery based system.In addition, I believe SMA has a product out now that allows you to tap directly into some of your grid-tie only PV production during a power outage - without batteries.In the USA all grid tie or grid interactive inverters are required to meetUL 1741anti-islanding requirements to ensure safety of utility workers.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 18, 2017, 06:47:53 pm
content: A friend of mine who lives in Manchester has had a 4kW PV array for quite a while now, around 10 years I think. I don't know who installed it but it was professionally done and has long since paid for itself. I would guess this stuff has only become more economical in the meantime.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 18, 2017, 07:02:00 pm
content: I had a rather unhappy encounter with around 600VDC coming out of my grid-tie inverter with the main switch off. They'll bite you. Isolators are not optional.And no, it's not some cheap thing out of China, it's a Fronius IG TL.

author: moz
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 18, 2017, 09:52:10 pm
content: Quote from: Codebird on April 18, 2017, 10:52:59 amThanks, but I've already got my BoM ordered and mostly delivered. Although thinking about it, the step from a ridiculously overpowered Arduino just logging power to also doing full charge control is, as you say, not a lot of components. I might get back to you on that.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 19, 2017, 12:16:54 am
content: Quote from: tggzzz on April 18, 2017, 02:48:13 pmThat and the grids are getting much better at providing diagnostics (automatically and without humans) so if you keep dumping power into the mains the grid operator will notice sooner or later, much sooner if you have a smart meter lol. Not worth the risk when you see the fines possible.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 19, 2017, 08:10:07 am
content: Quote from: Someone on April 19, 2017, 12:16:54 amWhen i asked they said if the unit is CE marked they don't have a problem. I asked my current provider about feed in tariff and they don't seem bothered.Sent from my Moto G (4) using Tapatalk

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 19, 2017, 08:40:59 am
content: Quote from: Simon on April 18, 2017, 02:50:56 pmA good motto, which hasliterallysaved my life on more than one occasion, is "Trust, but verify". One of those occasions was with a domestic electricity installation.(The only other mottoes that are worth a damn are "Think" and "Be prepared".)

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 19, 2017, 09:02:23 am
content: Of course.Sent from my Moto G (4) using Tapatalk