Engineers can't solder. - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: GK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2019, 01:54:24 pm
content: So the other day I had to babysit a final year engineering student for a few hours - can't solder.It's not the lack at that stage of that skill alone that is a bitper se, but everything that necessarily follows.Another one a while back needed me to explain how to wire a switch to assert an I/O pin on one of those Ardeweeno things, or whatever they're called.What would have Bob Pease or Jim Williams been without a soldering iron?

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2019, 02:06:56 pm
content: Sounds about right.Then again there's a curse there because as a foolish EE grad who could solder, the first thing I ended up doing was getting chucked on production for "lifecycle experience".

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2019, 02:15:07 pm
content: But they can make an LED blink on some Arduino board in like 2 minutes. Things change.Who needs a soldering iron when you can just stack up boards like a Lego game?

author: taydin
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2019, 02:16:55 pm
content: Many engineering students seem to have the attitude that "soldering is for technicians, I'm an ENGINEER, I don't have to know soldering, I'll just let the techs do it"Loser attitude I think.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2019, 02:19:17 pm
content: Quote from: taydin on August 08, 2019, 02:16:55 pmTotally agree.

author: Zbig
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2019, 02:56:51 pm
content: Can't solder it might very well be, let's just hope they don't draw conclusions based of the samples of two

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2019, 03:13:02 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on August 08, 2019, 02:15:07 pmusing a 1 gigabyte development system, 20k of runtime libraries.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2019, 03:24:08 pm
content: Quote from: taydin on August 08, 2019, 02:16:55 pmThis attitude is nothing new amongst engineering students in general, but I think the EEs used to be the least affected by this attitude...

author: MagicSmoker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2019, 04:05:48 pm
content: How in the world do these "engineers" prototype their own designs?<that's a rhetorical question - they don't>

author: Buriedcode
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2019, 04:11:02 pm
content: That is shocking, but remember, it only takes what, maybe a couple of hours practice to learn how to solder?Did you show him/her how to solder properly? It's all well and good scoffing at a student because they can't do something, but what did you do to change that?

author: GregDunn
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2019, 04:22:35 pm
content: Quote from: taydin on August 08, 2019, 02:16:55 pmIt's no worse than the attitude some techs have that "I don't need to know theory, I have practical experience." Huh. I wonder why this circuit doesn't work, it's assembled perfectly.Both kinds of extremism are very undesirable in electronics.

author: 001
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2019, 05:02:52 pm
content: I understend YouCheck another treadhttps://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/digital-generation-like-new-medieval-era/

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2019, 06:48:39 pm
content: ... But sadly that's not a new problem, a lot of new graduates have lacked basic soldering skills for years. It's not a new 'Medieval' problem.

author: Warhawk
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2019, 07:05:26 pm
content: Quote from: GK on August 08, 2019, 01:54:24 pmI started my professional career about ten years ago. Only engineers, I have witnessed soldering properly, were hobbyists or lab managers. I worked at Siemens R&D and now I am with TI in Germany. I had to buy even my own soldering tips, tweezers, wire cutters and fluxes because the Germans simply don't solder below 450°C (true for TI, true for Siemens) and tweezers look like tiger tanks in Soviet Russia in 1945. I've been to dozen labs all around the world and it was always the same story. Recently, a PhD colleague has asked me "hey, what is flux for?".But hey, why to use a pre-heat station or change the tip for bigger, when you can kick the tiny 0.4mm weller tip to 450°C and fuck it up in an hour including the PCB?9/10 EEs I've met had no idea about soldering, how it works, what flux does and why they should care. But I don't wonder anymore. My manager told me once "I did not hire you for soldering". I guess he hired me for powerpoints.Bop Pease, Bob Widlar (my child heroes) would be just average engineers in today's corporations. HR would not tolerate Widlar's special personality and the communications department would not tolerate Pease's messy desk. There's no place for individualism today. Political correctness is more important. Just check Infineon's or Siemens's Linekdin profiles.</rant> ; but feel better now

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2019, 07:14:24 pm
content: Quote from: Warhawk on August 08, 2019, 07:05:26 pmThat's for sure. We prefer employees that are easily replaceable these days, that's why average, but well formatted engineers are preferred. Makes organizations more "flexible" and easier to manage.That's also very reassuring for top managers, because this way they have a well established process on how to hire and manage people. When your company is made of "special" personalities and particularly gifted people, that can add tremendous value, but most companies usually don't have a damn clue how this all happened, so they don't know how to reproduce it.Conversely, hiring people that all have the same profile and have them do the exact same things all the time is very simple, and completely reproducible.

author: taydin
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2019, 07:25:07 pm
content: Quote from: Buriedcode on August 08, 2019, 04:11:02 pmThe EE student should have done whatever's necessary to learn soldering. Heck, even the minimal amount of passion towards your future profession should have had you building/experimenting with circuits, and wanting to learn soldering. Just waiting all those years for a teacher to come along and teach you soldering isn't the way to go.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2019, 07:52:17 pm
content: Edit: I removed this post as I was dissatisfied with my rant. I will think some more and try again

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2019, 08:47:12 pm
content: Quote from: MagicSmoker on August 08, 2019, 04:05:48 pmSPICE.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2019, 08:49:53 pm
content: Quote from: Warhawk on August 08, 2019, 07:05:26 pmI think highly productive employees can still be a bit off the rails. What? An employer is going to let a Bob Widlar type employee go to their competitors? Nonsense! They will build a special work area/lab and shove pizza under the door. There are too few geniuses and far too many employers. I wouldn't be surprised if they just rented a separate 'Special Projects' building. No snowflakes allowed!Remember, in Silicon Valley you change jobs by driving in the wrong driveway in the morning.Soldering would be a 'soft skill'. It won't be taught in college and is probably just expected by employers. But it won't be a deal breaker one way or the other. Employers are paying engineers for hard science and math. They can find hundreds of people to do the grunt work.I don't expect my Structural Engineers to know how to weld. I pay them to size the beams, not glue them together.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2019, 08:53:36 pm
content: Quote from: MagicSmoker on August 08, 2019, 04:05:48 pmThe company teams up a $15/hr technician with a $50/hr engineer to handle the grunt work. They can buy 3 techs for the cost of an engineer. Do you really think the economics favor an engineer doing his own prototyping? I would be surprised if a company would even allow such a thing.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2019, 08:53:57 pm
content: Quote from: ebastler on August 08, 2019, 08:47:12 pmYou wish... not even. I've met very few young EEs that even knew how to properly use Spice-based simulators. Or cared.

author: Rerouter
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2019, 08:56:33 pm
content: It takes about 2 and a half days of training hours on average spread over a few weeks to get someone to a level where they can solder smd 0805 components to a decent standard. If you try and rush it in one big hit then they forget most of it.Technician here. And have trained a lot of apprentices on how to solder. There used to be a part of my trade course called equiptment diagnosis and repair. Where they would essentially grab some of the equiptment the first years blew up. And for a day run through finding the fault and repairing it. (Most if it was fuses) but they dropped that part about 6 years ago.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2019, 09:01:49 pm
content: It's not so much that I'd expect an engineer to do a lot of soldering on the job, but I'd definitely have less respect for one that didn't even know how. I'd be very hesitant to hire an engineer that doesn't do engineering related things as a hobby. It would tell me that they're only in it for the paycheck and not really passionate about it.My dad is a ME and spent most of his career designing boilers and related equipment for paper mills and power plants. He didn't spend his weekend building boilers at home but he does know how to weld, machine metal, carpentry, plumbing, etc and I'm the same way. Most of my interests revolve around engineering and I'm always baffled when I encounter an engineer who isn't like that. Even if one doesn't regularly need to get their hands dirty, I expect them to know how.

author: taydin
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2019, 09:03:03 pm
content: Quote from: rstofer on August 08, 2019, 08:53:36 pmWhen working on a prototype, you might need to make many changes in a short period of time. Also, you might be still working after hours to finish something. Relying on a tech for each change, or for him to stick around after hours would be horribly inefficient. It's much better to just do it yourself.

author: taydin
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2019, 09:07:24 pm
content: And yes, a mechanical engineer isn't expected to do any welds, and especially not ones that are critical, but just going by theory won't make you a good ME. You need to be able to look at a weld and know if it was done well or not, and you need some hands on experience in order to catch a weldor bullshitting you about what can be done and what cannot be done

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2019, 09:16:54 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on August 08, 2019, 07:14:24 pmThis is probably a significant part of the reason there is such a lack of innovation in products today, brands are virtually irrelevant, products from different companies are nearly identical. Just look at cars today, 20 variations of the same stupid crossover with different badges and wheels is practically the entire market.I really miss the days when everyone would just throw a bunch of stuff at the wall and see what sticks. There was so much unique stuff on the market and so many choices. Now it seems everything is designed by committee based on the same marketing driven study and everyone just copies the same stupid fads and does the same thing everyone else does.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2019, 09:20:35 pm
content: Quote from: Rerouter on August 08, 2019, 08:56:33 pmIt was dropped because component level troubleshooting is out of favor. Just replace the board if you can get one (and you probably can't). If that fails, replace the unit.Time is money! We simply can't afford to have high dollar people trying to fix expendable equipment. Maybe you could afford 10 minutes to check the fuse (but still not understand why it blew) but for low dollar equipment (I'm thing Rigol DS1054Z type equipment), it's better to not waste any more time and just tell Purchasing to get another one. For high dollar equipment, send it back to the manufacturer. They have specialists for this kind of work.Most of these seemingly 'irrational' decisions really come down to the high cost of employees. The decisions make all the sense in the world when you look at the money. And it's always about the money!The average wage for an electronics engineer in Silicon Valley is $134k but you have to add 35% for benefits so gross cost is about $180k ($90/hr gross cost to the employer). Don't waste it on board soldering...That's the 'mean' number, not the extreme. One can expect that the high performers are making a LOT more money.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2019, 09:23:05 pm
content: Quote from: rstofer on August 08, 2019, 08:53:36 pmSure. Really depends on many factors though. In very small companies, you may not be able to afford additional technicians. Sure the time spent on prototyping itself would cost less, but you may not have work for technicians all year long... So hiring one may not be worth it.When you have technicians, then of course it again depends on obvious considerations. If explaining what you need done to a technician takes more of your time than doing it yourself (for instance if you need to try very simple modifications fast), then it may be "corporately-correct" but not make sense cost-wise. Now if you have whole boards to get hand-assembled, handing that to a technician is common sense.And finally, when you're a student, you don't know what you're going to have to deal with during your career. Much easier to delegate solder tasks, when you can, if you know how to solder yourself than having to do it yourself, because you have no one to delegate it to, if you don't know how...

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2019, 09:37:25 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on August 08, 2019, 09:23:05 pmInteresting point! Of course I would expect a EE to know how to solder. I would also expect them to know how to write decent 'C' code and be proficient in MATLAB. LTspice would also be expected of EEs. These are all soft skills and may not always be taught as part of a university program.However, at our local university both MATLAB and SolidWorks are required courses for all engineering students.I guess if you don't have anyone to delegate the work to, it's time to learn on the job. How hard can it be? It's certainly nowhere near as difficult as Field Theory.

author: MagicSmoker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2019, 09:55:17 pm
content: Quote from: rstofer on August 08, 2019, 08:53:36 pmYou're assuming all companies are large ones with lots of techs and engineers running around; that's not my gig - I do contract design work for *small* companies that often can't even afford to have a single full time engineer, much less some techs to do the grunt work.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2019, 11:33:30 pm
content: Quote from: MagicSmoker on August 08, 2019, 09:55:17 pmThen they need a different kind of engineer. I'm thinking Lockheed Martin, General Dynamics and Raytheon while others are thinking about mom and pop operations.Sure, there are different needs...

author: m98
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2019, 11:49:10 pm
content: I guess its the more flexible and productivity-oriented mid-sized companies that tend to split up work between specialized people.Where I worked, it really was not worth the bureaucracy and time for smaller projects to delegate tasks to specialized departments for anything where it wasn't formally required. This included things like engineers etching their prototype PCBs in the lab, running to a chaotic external logistics provider to collect some missing parts, assembling and testing them. On the plus side, this led to everyone being a good allrounder.That company btw. wouldn't sound odd in a list with Lockheed Martin and Raytheon.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2019, 11:50:03 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on August 08, 2019, 02:15:07 pmI can make an LED blink with a just a few leads with alligator clips, a resistor, a self flashing LED, & a 9v battery ------in less than a minute!

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2019, 12:08:24 am
content: EE's don't even own a soldering iron or multimeter, MecE's don't own a wrench.I asked an EE why and his reply is he doesn't need one at home, why buy all this extra stuff and find a place to store it. These tools are at the workplace. They don't even know what side-cutters, needle-nose pliers are.Millennials seem to be spoiled, they think they will be handed everything they need at that moment. They are not much for being hobbyists or having to acquire knowledge on their own. It's all been spoon-fed to them in schools.There's an old saying "you're either born an engineer, or not".

author: ferdieCX
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2019, 12:15:38 am
content: Quote from: rstofer on August 08, 2019, 09:20:35 pmNot very good for the environment. People should be charged for the real cost of disposing electronic equipment

author: med6753
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2019, 12:38:56 am
content: This is absolutely nothing new. I discovered this fact back in the 1970's when I went on a temporary assignment in a development lab. Some of those engineers were downright dangerous with a soldering iron.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2019, 12:40:03 am
content: Quote from: floobydust on August 09, 2019, 12:08:24 amThere's some truth to that, however I gotta say, I work with a whole bunch of millennials that are really sharp people and don't fit the stereotype at all. Some of the devs on my team are really exceptional, creative people with a natural curiosity and drive to get stuff done.

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2019, 12:51:31 am
content: But do they own a soldering iron?I can tell now, people who immediately dial up a soldering station's temperature very high and then leave it on all day... those are the people who took engineering because mom and dad told them to.

author: schmitt trigger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2019, 01:24:11 am
content: A technician who assembled the mechanical aspects of huge telecom power supplies, once told me that a MSME wasn't aware that electrical screwdivers have a 'reverse" button."Oh! So this can actually work as an electricun-screw driver?"He swore that he was not making that up.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2019, 03:30:57 am
content: Quote from: med6753 on August 09, 2019, 12:38:56 amAn older friend of mine worked at a place in the 70s and told me a story about a couple of ME's that tried to heat a tank of water by putting several feet of bare copper wire in it and connecting it to the wall. They were confused as to why there was a bang and the breaker tripped. Maybe it was some of those same guys.

author: Warhawk
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2019, 05:59:34 am
content: Quote from: james_s on August 08, 2019, 09:16:54 pmJames, believe or not but I wrote practically identical reply to SiliconWizard but went to bed before posting it

author: Warhawk
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2019, 06:22:55 am
content: Quote from: rstofer on August 08, 2019, 09:20:35 pmThis is all understandable but let me share my viewpoint:With fixing the stuff you learn (more than from designing stuff).Many complex circuits require a partial assembling or additional dummy components for testing. Proper testing & debugging require soldering.I take care of some of our college graduates. They often come to me and ask for help. "The circuit does not work" they claim. In 95% chances, it is just poor soldering, e.g. SMDs hanging in the air and so on. It is always soldering except it is not.Every lab assistant has a pile of boards to rework. If everything goes well, IC replacement takes about 20-30 minutes and I drink coffee meanwhile. It takes me typically 5 min to change a 48-TQFP with a thermal pad. Also, I can test 15 snubber configurations in 20 minutes. (real-life examples)I would not hire any engineer who needs babysitting in the lab (soldering, testing). This would be a very expensive engineer. (and I used to hire people for my team).Long story short, most of today's EEs can't solder and they can't even do electronics measurements properly. Understanding oscilloscope measurements is for some our PhD Übermenchen too much. You would not believe how many oscilloscopes connected through an isolation transformer for HV tests I've seen. Or how many damaged active >1GHz differential probes because reading CMR=6V max is too difficult.

author: julianhigginson
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2019, 07:10:40 am
content: gosh... kIDz tHEsE daYs, hUh?!?20 years ago, I know there were people getting degrees who couldn't solder. Because I was at university with a few of them. Not being able to solder is the least of it - I knew of one guy a year or two above me who had his whole 4th year thesis done for him by friends, and he got a job at the end of it all.... That made me a bit sad about my degree at the time, to be honest.It's not about Arduinos or millennials or anything else - some engineering graduates are interested to learn practical things, so they do - others don't.Personally, I think having that hobby mentality where a student who actually wants to try out for themselves what they're learning makes for better engineers - but these other engineers still get jobs doing something or other in big systemised companies, and get their paychecks year after year, so they must be OK for something.I figure that as long as they are fine to get out of my way for things they know nothing about, and don't do stupid things with mains, other engineers can specialise (or not) in what they want.

author: Rerouter
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2019, 08:31:54 am
content: I should clarify, the repair day is never intended to train people to go around fixing all of the things, it is to show them how to figure out if something is working, and introduce them to failure modes. and build up there knowledge on troubleshooting.If every project you have ever worked on had no issues, either the complexity is low or your paycheck is high, when that thing you have engineered has an issue, how do you isolate what could have gone wrong from the rest of it, I'm not saying they have to crack open there Keithley SMU, but if they have voltage but no current, it helps to know to check the connections. and how to make sure the cables are not intermittent

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2019, 08:38:26 am
content: I dont think I've ever had to use the soldering iron during my time at the university. None of the classes required it. They showed us PCB production and assembly, P&P.To be honest, in real world, engineers are very expensive (and overqualified) to solder stuff. Whenever you can, assign a lab technician doing it, if you cannot do this, you either working at a startup, a dead company with clueless management.That being said, I solder. Down to 0402 or DDR2 chip in BGA package. And I think engineers should learn the skill.

author: BU508A
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2019, 09:14:20 am
content: Actually, I don't know what you are doing at work?"Neither do I, I just go there ...

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2019, 10:12:07 am
content: Quote from: GregDunn on August 08, 2019, 04:22:35 pmPrecisely. Absolutely spot on. That ought to be Writ Large.Doctors != nurses.If I need a needle inserted or a plaster cast, I want a nurse to do it. Maybe a doctor can do it, but a nurse will probably do it better.If I need a diagnosis about a condition, I want a doctor to do it. Maybe a nurse (practitioner) can do it, but a doctor is more likely to choose the best course of treatment.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2019, 10:17:27 am
content: Quote from: Gyro on August 08, 2019, 06:48:39 pmExactly.When I started work there was a short workshop training course. The Personnel Director (not an HR-droid) told me that he could very quickly spot the graduates that had practical experience. All he had to do was watch them using pliers, cutters, etc.BTW, anybody thinking of looking at 001's "Medieval" thread should skip to the comments from Simon.

author: MagicSmoker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2019, 11:33:37 am
content: There seems to be two different arguments getting conflated/equated here. One argument - which I happen to agree with despite earlier comments - is that engineers in medium to large corporations shouldn't be soldering on the job because economics. The other argument is that engineers that don't even know how to solder are actually showing you they don't have any passion for engineering.Personally, I wouldn't put much faith in anything designed by an EE that can't freakin' solder in the first place. That just shows he/she has *never* made anything from start to finish on their own, and you can't deliver a superior design without experiencing all steps of the product development pathway (including troubleshooting when things go wrong, as Rerouter tried to point out above).

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2019, 11:51:51 am
content: Quite a few Engineers I knew back in the day would build up ""spiderwebs" of components to test out an idea, then present it to a Tech, (along with a scribbly schematic) to produce the final article.Sometimes, the "spiderweb" worked like a charm, but didn't translate well onto a PCB, usually because it was a HF circuit, & the latter had higher stray capacitance.The "spiderweb", apart from its lack of rigidity, was pretty much the ideal way to make such circuits.

author: taydin
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2019, 12:02:09 pm
content: Quote from: MagicSmoker on August 09, 2019, 11:33:37 amI think the people saying that have misunderstood the point. Nobody here is saying that engineers should be doing soldering as part of their job requirement. The point is, in order to efficiently debug your prototype board, the engineer must be able to remove the odd part and put another one on the circuit. During prototype board bring up, removing/inserting components, wiring etc is a very frequently done activity. Having all of that done by a technician is very inefficient, because you will lose focus while your board waits for the tech to make the change. Imaging having to wait between 5 minutes and 1 hour to make a change to the prototype and then continue your testing. Maybe large monopolies can afford that kind of overhead, but most other companies cannot.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2019, 12:15:06 pm
content: Quote from: MagicSmoker on August 09, 2019, 11:33:37 amPeople have avoided considering thequalityof the soldering.For making to get a first prototype working, yes an engineer ought to be able to bodge it.For making/repairing production items, an engineer should not do it - unless their soldering skill have been demonstrated to be up to production standards.For making something to be shipped to a customer for evaluation, or which has high energy, a judgement has to be made on a case-by-case basis. Do not expect it to be as neat as a decent technican would do.

author: GK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2019, 01:14:40 pm
content: Quote from: MagicSmoker on August 09, 2019, 11:33:37 amBingo. I was sure that some kind of comment not nebulously related to my opening post would eventually be made; even if just by random chance as opposed to some basic level of comprehension.Quoting myself, with bold for emphasis this time:QuoteThis isn't about all of the posted BS about techs vs engineers or whether or not an engineer should be paid to do soldering FFS, but about the deficit of a whole horizon of learning that comes part and parcel with having graduated with a degree without having ever so much as soldered a bunch of parts together dead-bug over a sheet of copper laminate in order to actually make, test and debug something.I used Bob Pease and Jim Williams as examples as they are community heroes and supposedly role models. They didn't attain their celebrated proficiency in electronic circuit design simply by absorbing their text book theory and playing with SPICE and MATLAB.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2019, 03:00:16 pm
content: Quote from: taydin on August 09, 2019, 12:02:09 pmFor prototyping quality, an EE can learn all there is to know about soldering in about 5 minutes. Come on! It isn't brain surgery! Hot thing, melty stuff, pins and wires. How hard can it be? I've been soldering for 68 years, beginning when I was 5 years old and my dad had me solder an RCA plug to a shielded cable. We had just bought a 45 RPM record changer and needed a cable. I was also blessed with many Heathkits throughout my formative years. Soldering just wasn't a problem. Hot thing, melty stuff, pins and wires.Engineers didn't get through school by being stupid, they can learn pretty quick. And they can do the math. But, if you want Mil Spec, better find a qualified assembler (person) who has taken the classes and passed the tests. I'm not qualified. Nor will I ever be!I had always thought that the tech and engineer would sit side by side at the bench. The tech would handle the grunt work, twisting knobs on test equipment, wiring things up, while the engineer could deal with the numbers and interpreting results. Maybe I misunderstood the dynamics.I view engineers vs techs as I view doctors vs nurses. Both are needed but if I'm sick I would prefer to see a doctor.

author: 001
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2019, 03:03:49 pm
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on August 09, 2019, 01:13:02 pmIt only means that I'm not alone in my ideas

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2019, 03:29:00 pm
content: Quote from: GK on August 09, 2019, 01:14:40 pmOf course it is!QuoteMaybe that's what the 16 units of mandatory summer internships are all about at our local university.QuoteBob Pease started at National Semi as a design andapplicationsengineer. Of course he had to solder.I guess the point I'm trying to make is that I would rather hire an ace with math and take 10 minutes to teach him how to solder than to hire somebody who barely made it through but can already solder to Mil Spec. Soldering just isn't a big thing to learn. A few minutes ought to cover it. Everything else is OJT.It helps if an engineer also has hobby interests in the same subject. I never did... Electronics and all of the schooling behind it was simply a hobby. Electrical (big power, industrial plants, etc) was the way I made a living.There were a lot of Bobs at National in the early '70s: Bob Widlar, Bob Pease, Bod Dobkin - all luminaries in analog circuitry. The only one I met was Bob Widlar at one of his infamous lunches. An interesting fellow!It is entirely possible for someone to decide to major in EE at the beginning of their 3rd year. The first two years are General Education and background courses anyway. Serious courses toward a major don't really start until 3rd year. At that point, there will be no time to learn tech skills because things get intense for the upper division courses. It is certainly possible to graduate without learning to solder. Maybe electronics never was a hobby. But the fellow understands quantum computing and how to use it for AI. Well, darn, do I trash his resume' because he was never a tech? Not likely! Especially if my company wants to rule the universe. I'll hire him, build him a lab and staff it with as many techs as it takes. More... Just in case one calls in sick!

author: GK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2019, 03:39:01 pm
content: Quote from: rstofer on August 09, 2019, 03:29:00 pm

author: taydin
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2019, 03:46:09 pm
content: Quote from: rstofer on August 09, 2019, 03:00:16 pmI think just being able to solder regular wires and resistors and such isn't going to be enough. I'm an EE, and I don't feel comfortable replacing BGA chips (small or large), but I can do most other soldering work, even though it will take me perhaps double the time that it would take an experienced technician.For example, the EE should be able to remove an SOIC IC using hot air and then solder the new one back in. Also, the EE should be able to glue a 10 pin header to the edge of the prototype board and then solder wires to points of interest. I do this for almost ALL prototype boards that I'm bringing up, and then I attach my logic analyzer or scope to those header pins for debugging. The points of interest might be very fine pitch IC's or connectors, so these will be done under the microscope. If you can't do this, then you'll just have to keep waiting for techs and the board bring up will take three times more than it would take if you had been able to do the soldering.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2019, 03:56:50 pm
content: Quote from: GK on August 09, 2019, 01:14:40 pmThe quality and purpose of the soldering was not well defined, thus leaving others to fill in the blanks as they saw fit.When hiring a new grad, I was always hiringpotentialnot commercial accomplishments.I have always been very interested in what they have chosen to do in their spare time, whether they set stretch goals for themselves, what they would do differently next time.I never bothered to ask about soldering since soldering to the level you mentioned is trivial; it can be learned fast, on the job.QuoteSo, you are comparing an average new grad with examples of very experienced engineers. However vague that comparison, it generates more heat than light.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2019, 03:59:17 pm
content: Quote from: taydin on August 09, 2019, 03:46:09 pmAnd how long did it take you to learn how to solder those components?I'd be much more interested to find out why they chose the specific tool for debugging, and if they didn't have one what would they have done instead.

author: pepelevamp
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2019, 04:02:29 pm
content: to me its a different but related kind of beef.ive found that university & surrounding 'prepare ya for a job!' programmes do a lot of prepping students to pretend that they are genuine.i mean we have a makerspace with attached startup-related programmes centre and its full of posters with slogans on them & shit like 'innovation is a mindset!' and all this kinda cringe-worthy stuff.its kinda been bugging me because its like seeing people everywhere being taught to emulate what you know & do instinctively. it feels like your individual worth is eroded.ya know so its not so much that a student cant solder - its that you'd expected them to have wanted to solder by now without being prompted. and that feels not genuine.at least thats how i see stuff. and i say this as an old noob whos studying at uni and finally decided to learn electronics after years of being chicken shit.

author: taydin
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2019, 04:05:39 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on August 09, 2019, 03:59:17 pmI was able to solder all through hole stuff before I started a job, and I learned SMD stuff later because way back SMD wasn't a hobbyist thing.Quote from: tggzzz on August 09, 2019, 03:59:17 pmI think these two are directly correlated. EE's that are good at soldering will also be good in the aspects you mentioned, and vice versa.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2019, 04:11:21 pm
content: Quote from: pepelevamp on August 09, 2019, 04:02:29 pmIt takes five minutes during an interview to determine if someoneonlyknows "The Apprentice" type bullshit like that. A decent candidate will have a CV which indicates they've done more than spout Readers Digest slogans.QuoteGood for you; being a mature student is not an easy option. I hope and expect the course will open your eyes to a subtle and exciting way of thinking. I also hope you will be able to structure your CV so that cretinous HR-droids don't simply reject a "non-standard candidate".

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2019, 04:12:27 pm
content: Quote from: pepelevamp on August 09, 2019, 04:02:29 pmI don't follow. You mean that being around "innovation is a mindset" posters makes students appear genuine? And does so well enough to diminish your value as a proper, genuinely experienced engineer?!I agree that those slogans are cringe-worthy. And I don't see how they could help any student in any interview, let alone on the job.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2019, 04:20:39 pm
content: Quote from: taydin on August 09, 2019, 04:05:39 pmSeems sensible, and mirrors my path.QuoteI disagree, but I would think someone that knows the range of tools would also be able to solder.I've seen too many people with an engineering degree, and often they couldn't think independently. They might well make a good (and valuable) technician, but would be unlikely to be interesting as engineers.

author: GK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2019, 04:23:21 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on August 09, 2019, 03:56:50 pmWhat on earth are you talking about? The "purpose and the quality of the soldering" wasn't even mentioned (let alone "not well defined"!) simply because it was completely irrelevant. The point was entirely concerned with what can be sensibly inferred from the fact that (should it be the case) an engineer can't solder.QuoteAgain:I made no such comparison. What a ridiculous perversion of what I wrote!

author: pepelevamp
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2019, 04:25:56 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on August 09, 2019, 04:11:21 pmheh thanks man. and you're right about the HR droids - ive had great conversations with reps from companies coming into uni to talk to potential interns but the HR just shoots me down.so im thinking about side-channel ways in. as long as i dont have to spend time under anyones desk.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2019, 04:28:21 pm
content: Quote from: GK on August 09, 2019, 04:23:21 pmIf the quality is unimportant, then they could learn soldering in a morning. Why on earth do you think that is a helpful discriminator?Yes, it might be a helpful discriminator for a technician-level job, but not for an engineering-level job.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2019, 04:30:50 pm
content: Again, I think the original topic was that many EEs these dayscan'tsolder, and the possible consequences it has. It was not about discussing the merits of actually soldering as a significant part of an EE's daily engineering job. Two slightly different things.Many educational programs have actually drifted towards an excessive "utilitarian" bias IMO, generally speaking. Meaning that something that would not directly be used in a typical job on a regular basis wouldn't need to be taught. That's problematic from an educational POV, and is very short-sighted. Of course students subjected to this educational approach will tend to themselves acquire an excessively utilitarian view of what they need to know and do.And then, sure, learning how to solder is easy. Now for a lot of users here (I guess), it's kind of hard to tell actually. Because many of us have started soldering at a pretty young age, so we've basically been doing this for ages. It's kind of hard to really tell how hard it would be to pick for an adult, especially one who doesn't want to and is just forced by conjuncture... but anyway, the point is really about the mindset and your approach of educating yourself much more so than just having or not having some specific skill.Finally, and probably the obvious: some EE that can't solder can't have electronics as a passion (if you find one in this case, tell me, must be extremely rare). Now it's up to you (as someone hiring an EE) and your company's policies and needs to decide whether it matters or not. I guess in larger companies, it may even be a criterion these days to actually reject (or at least put at the bottom of the short list) an EE that has electronics as a passion, thinking that it could meddle with their daily job in negative ways, and would tend to make those candidates have too much of a tinkerer attitude, even when they are fully qualified.So there is no clear cut answer to all of this, it all depends on the situation, but we can safely say IMO that it does have consequences on an engineer's mindset.

author: pepelevamp
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2019, 04:31:21 pm
content: Quote from: ebastler on August 09, 2019, 04:12:27 pmyeah mate. it goes further than the posters. you get zillions of employers come to uni to talk to students about things they want from candidates. and it actually can get pretty superficial aye. it almost hurts being told some of the stuff they tell students. its like telling you "hey - you should be interested in being a live and breathing! you should be excited to tell us about your projects. " its like - surely they would have better luck not saying that so the students who naturally like oxygen and talking about products could shine through.but yeah, man i dunno. i dont know how normal people think. its just you see so much superficial bullshit go past ya ears & eyes over the years at uni its easy to lose your mind.its also very hostile - vendors are always trying to get students onto their software platform or whatever. you know the story.

author: Buriedcode
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2019, 04:34:08 pm
content: I can't help wonder how many in this thread have regular direct experience with fresh graduates. I don't mean met the odd one, I mean, get to see how their skills "straight out of university" have changed over the years. I suspect there is quite a wide individual variation which says less about higher education, and more about.. well.. natural variation.I can't say I have seen many post grads join the companies I've worked for over the years, probably about 6. There were some who could solder but had very little awareness of what opamps were, and others who were whizzes with SPICE but lacked practical experience. It's not a fair comparison since they all had different backgrounds.Really this whole thread is down to how much value we put on what skills, and whether those skills should be mandatory or part of "learn on the job". There does seem to be a definite polarizing here between those who see soldering as some kind of finely honed skill (news flash - with half decent equipment, it isn't hard) and those who see the myriad other "skills" (analogue, maths, various programming languages) as being perhaps harder/take longer to achieve, and therefore more important.I think we can all agree that being able to solder - and therefore, being able to knockup prototypes, and modify them is an important skill, but if one considers that their most *important* skill as an engineer, I think you need to expand your horizons.

author: pepelevamp
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2019, 04:36:03 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on August 09, 2019, 04:30:50 pmhow dare you properly identify a problem before attempting to provide a solution.ultimately this is right though. this has been a good stroll down opinion-lane though.next up is: white men cant jump.

author: pepelevamp
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2019, 04:41:41 pm
content: Quote from: Buriedcode on August 09, 2019, 04:34:08 pmYa know i find electronics is like programming how it always has to touch some other area in order to fully show its potential. Knowing it in isolation can be a severe handicap. Even an LED blink circuit you can end up talking about lumens light wavelength stuff & go off on tangents. Love that shit.

author: taydin
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2019, 04:44:26 pm
content: Quote from: pepelevamp on August 09, 2019, 04:36:03 pmAnd after that: female EE's vs male EE's ( aaaaaa that one will be thousands of posts)

author: GK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2019, 04:51:33 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on August 09, 2019, 04:28:21 pmJesus!If a qualified engineer can't solder then they have never built anything from scratch on their own and a whole lot else. For the umpteenth time it's not *just* about freaking soldering, which of course they could learn if they simply wanted to or if the job demanded it to some degree.Becoming a proficient electronics circuit designer requires both a breadth of theoretical understanding AND practical experience. Read almost anything by Bob "My favorite programming language is solder" Pease - it was his hobby horse to drum that into the head of anyone who would listen.

author: taydin
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2019, 04:57:31 pm
content: So just to summarize the two main points so far:1) EE's need to be able to solder so that they can quickly and efficiently debug prototype hardware.2) An EE that is really good has gotten to that level because s/he experimented with lots of circuits, so you can't be a good EE unless you have done this.Some say "yea but it just takes a few hours to teach somebody how to solder". Ok, but what if he knows too little about how to use a multimeter? Ok, one day to teach him that. BUT, he doesn't know how to use an LCR meterno problem, one more day.He hasn't used much of SPICE or MATLAB either. No problem, one week will teach him that. Eventually you have to come to a point where you will ask "What DOES this guy know?" Electronics Engineering can be both a job and a hobby, so an EE who has also done electronics as a hobby is probably good. And to do electronics as a hobby you must have soldered a lot. An EE that just sees electronics as a job probably won't have bothered learning to use LCR meter, multimeters, logic analyzers, spectrum analyzer, spice, schematic creating software etc. and he probably hasn't done any soldering either.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2019, 05:12:25 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on August 09, 2019, 04:30:50 pmAnd I'll continue my POV: It is totally irrelevant. Should the skill be lacking, a good EE will have it mastered before lunch. If it is even necessary and it likely isn't. There are techs for that kind of stuff. You can learn all you need to know on YouTube - before lunch. How hard can it be?It's nice if a candidate also has a matching hobby but what if their hobby is totally unrelated? Maybe they like to sail, maybe they like SCUBA Diving. Maybe they like to race dirt bikes and small hydroplanes. Go fast kinds of things. Adrenalin junkie. Totally unrelated hobbies and solder isn't even involved. So what? I'm hiring the engineer for his math skills not his ability to displace a low paid tech. And when I was building a factory overseas, my hydroplane won a LOT of races with my good friend driving.In Silicon Valley, the median income for a tech is about $65k so, when 35% burden is applied, the cost to the employer is around $88k and I showed above where the engineer costs about $190k. I don't want my engineers anywhere near a soldering iron! I have people for that kind of work!Or I would have if I were in that business.This soldering thing is just a tech vs engineer debate. Techs can solder, engineers can do math.

author: GK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2019, 05:14:47 pm
content: Quote from: taydin on August 09, 2019, 04:57:31 pmMore specifically a designer of electronic hardware. You could instead be a competent EE who spends a whole career just developing algorithms.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2019, 05:23:31 pm
content: Quote from: GK on August 09, 2019, 04:51:33 pmYou are trying to equate 'Joe Smuck', BSEE, to one of the most famous designers of all time. Somebody could get a degree in Physics but that won't put them on a par with Einstein. These famous people are the exception, not the rule.Almost everything worth learning will happen after graduation. All college teaches is some fundamental tools. Job specific tools are always learned on the job. It's not like a candidate has a wafer fab in their basement. Nor do they have a clue about the limitations of your manufacturing process. That's why they won't be worth much for the first few years. Then they will move to another company and you're back searching for another entry level EE.And, while I'm at it, a BSEE is a bit minimal. At best you know a very little about a lot of subjects. It's only when you get to the Master's program that you begin to focus on a narrower field. Sure, a PhD is nice but it might be a little too focused depending on the field.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2019, 05:32:05 pm
content: Quote from: GK on August 09, 2019, 05:14:47 pmOr you could shuck the whole thing and build manufacturing facilities or just run projects. A degree is a stepping stone not necessarily a destination. I keep telling my grandson that, with luck, he will never spend a day doing engineering. He will hire engineers and tell them what needs to happen and when. Engineering is boring!

author: GK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2019, 05:43:01 pm
content: Quote from: rstofer on August 09, 2019, 05:23:31 pmThis is getting surreal. I am not trying to do any such thing and you honestly aren't making a lick of sense now. It was Bob's passion to teach the value and importance of practical experience to the EE student.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2019, 06:07:39 pm
content: Quote from: floobydust on August 09, 2019, 12:08:24 amWhat a load of utter nonsense.If what you said were true, then how come the “maker” movement is booming among them? It’s the same hobby under a different name.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2019, 06:26:47 pm
content: Quote from: rstofer on August 09, 2019, 05:12:25 pmYou're missing the rest of what I said to explain my points, and are sticking apparently to a purely utilitarian POV, which I was also discussing. You also seem to be strictly orienting your POV towards big corporations, which only represent a very small fraction of all companies in the world.Any skill can be learnt, and for a candidate to lack one, especially a relatively simple and even *apparently* irrelevant one like this, should of course not determine in itself whether you are going to hire them or not. What I'm saying (as a few others here I guess) is that it still DOES say something about how an engineer has been educated and about their mindset. Then whether it matters will depend on the company and other factors, but it's certainly not irrelevant in that respect. Of course soldering is just one tiny example, the same can be said about many other skills. The one small thing that makes this example specific is that for an EE never to have soldered in their entire life is somewhat strange and fishy. That would at least say they are not interested in practical matters. Whether it matters for a specific situation - I think I'm repeating myself excessively now - see above.As a small company, someone lacking basic skills like this - says too much and is a red flag to me, and it's not a question of the skill itself. Again in big corporations, that's different and may even be considered an advantage (again see above post why I say that.)

author: DannyTheGhost
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2019, 06:37:57 pm
content: I think that soldering skills isn't quite the main point of this whole thread.It's just one of examples of how some students care much about their career.it's not about a skill - it is about 'if this guy knows how to solder - then maybe he actually made something and understood what he made - therefore, he has some practical skills of what he was studying'It's just painful to see some people doesn't respect their own work with their arrogance like they are modern artists and not engineers or even technicians.

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2019, 07:18:03 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on August 09, 2019, 06:07:39 pmMakers are just putting together muh arduino and shields. They don't buy the IC and breadboard or more. It's all pre-done for them, pcb including the sample software and spoon-fed with videos.I don't see any electronics knowledge needed to plug in a shield, download software and go.When the stuff doesn't work - it's about getting the answers given to them on Internet forums.So instead of learning a troubleshooting technique, instead of learning why the solder isn't sticking to things, I'm seeing the engineer tosses it to a technician and gets them to fix it all.Sure the electronics hobby has changed over the years but if you are into something, you'll start at a young age and have the bits needed. A musician, decent engineer, fine artist for example - they'll own an instrument/soldering iron/paint and have years of basic experience, have a passion - before going to university.People who think they can simply go to university and know it all, or be any good at something now, that's proven fiction.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2019, 07:28:55 pm
content: Quote from: DannyTheGhost on August 09, 2019, 06:37:57 pmThe important concept there is related to students doing more than the minimum required for the qualification.That is important, and it is worth testing in an interview. I always suggest to students that will help them get an interesting job.But the title of this thread is solely (and INMNSHO too narrowly) about soldering. If the OP was interested in more than soldering, he could have chosen a title that more accurate expressed his contention.After all in most things including engineering, an important skill is to be able express yourself concisely so that everybody concentrates on the topic that interests you, rather than diverting the conversation.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2019, 07:31:29 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on August 09, 2019, 07:28:55 pmWell, good point really. Some of us have maybe read into what the OP meant a bit too much. A habit of trying to translate ill-expressed concepts into more usable and more general ones...

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2019, 08:41:15 pm
content: Quote from: floobydust on August 09, 2019, 07:18:03 pmMakers come in all skill levels. I think there are at least as many highly skilled ones now as there ever were, there are just many more opportunities for the lesser skilled ones to publish projects.How many amateurs clumsily fumbled their way through assembling a Heathkit back in the 50s-70s? How many failed or needed help? I'd bet quite a few.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2019, 11:48:47 pm
content: Should a chemical engineer have his own laboratory at home ?Should a power engineer have his own high voltage generators and distribution network at home ?The problem I see with all your views is that they are made from a small fraction hardware engineers perspective.My guess is that from my graduation class end 90s of 30 EEs perhaps two have ever had a job that required them to solder. There are just not that many jobs in that field left, at least where I live.There were thousands of those jobs in the 70s, 80s, not any longer.Nowadays an education is a quick proof you have interest in a certain field and much more that you are able to think abstract and able to take on a lot of other jobs.If soldering would be very important for any EE don't you think there would have been a mandatory class just like math in that course program?

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2019, 12:01:08 am
content: Quote from: Kjelt on August 09, 2019, 11:48:47 pmI would expect a chemical engineer to have (or have had) a chemistry set and be familiar with the use of various laboratory apparatus, if nothing else I would hope they had been enthusiastic enough about the topic to have participated in labs in their highschool chemistry class. I remember a lot of that stuff and I've never worked with chemicals in my professional career.I would expect a power engineer to have done plenty of playing with electricity as a kid, and have some sort of hobby relating to it as an adult. Even if they just fix stuff around the house, something vaguely related.I guess I just expect an engineer of any type to have some sort of engineering related hobbies, perhaps because there are several engineers in my family and quite a few friends are engineers of various types and we all do that sort of thing. Household electrical/plumbing/carpentry projects, rebuilding cars, building model airplanes or cars or ships, etc, tinkering with hobbies, I just can't even relate to someone who is an engineer for a living but doesn't do anything like that. I was building things and taking things apart to see how they worked from the time I was a small child. In most cases I would assume that an engineer who doesn't have any hobbies like that just went into it for the paycheck and is not very passionate about the subject.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2019, 07:57:51 am
content: Quote from: james_s on August 10, 2019, 12:01:08 amActually labs are a big part of the first years chemistry education.Why is soldering not for the EE education ?QuoteMy friend EE power engineer makes calculations about the network topology and materials needed. Never used a soldering iron or even a screwdriver or multimeter at his work but earns 1,5x more than some friend who do.QuoteYes me too, I love soldering, programming and mechanical eng. but most of my current colleagues don't, they say this is my profession, at home I have my hobbies like sports, movies, cooking etc.This is why I think the hobbie EEs are different is some way that they continue to do the same stuff as they do at work, most people don't or can't because their profession is not possible to be a hibbie.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2019, 08:05:35 am
content: Quote from: james_s on August 10, 2019, 12:01:08 amI would expect that of any engineer I would consider employing.I wouldn't expect that they had done anyonespecific thing, either as a hobby or as a professional.When I interview the first part is getting the candidate to explain what they have done. The relevance of their previous experience tomyjob is usually minimal. I then question their experience to see their attitude and mentality (and trap out bullshitters!).The second part is asking them about things relevant to my job, and seeing how they start to think about things that areunfamiliarto them. I'll often use such questions to indicate to the candidate how things are done at my workplace; good candidates pick up on that and question me.Fundamentally I assume my job will be significantly different to anything a candidate has done before. I'm looking for someone that has achieved a goal, and canlearn, then achieve my goals.

author: taydin
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2019, 09:09:51 am
content: Quote from: Kjelt on August 10, 2019, 07:57:51 amAnalytical thinking, divide and conquer strategy in problem solving, and procedures for hardware board bring up are also not courses in college. Those are just expected of a hardware engineer.And besides, given that EE education is not perfect and is going down hill fast, the fact that there is no course about soldering doesn't diminish its usefulness. Points have been made about why soldering should be an EE skill, so it would be better to hear counter arguments instead of "colleges don't do it, so it isn't necessary"

author: GK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2019, 09:33:36 am
content: Quote from: DannyTheGhost on August 09, 2019, 06:37:57 pmAs explicitly stated (to almost no avail) in the second sentence of my opening post.Quote from: SiliconWizard on August 09, 2019, 07:31:29 pmThat made me laugh. More like a literal-minded tendency to erroneously frame statements of an other into a context that gives one permission to evangelize from their own soap box.Since the discussion has been shifted further now to "important life skills", it's worth pointing out that characters with the above-detailed inclination can be just as destructive in the workplace as any dedicated psychopath.

author: Black Phoenix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2019, 09:45:22 am
content: Quote from: GK on August 10, 2019, 09:33:36 amCare to explain why you say that? No joking or being sarcastic.

author: BU508A
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2019, 09:45:56 am
content: Quote from: tggzzz on August 10, 2019, 08:05:35 amIn my very humble opinion, this is the key what differs a good engineer from an average one.It is all about the attitude on how to do things, how to resolve a problem or an issue, asking questions, alsoa bit "out of the box" and learn.For example: my main profession is being an engineer, want to be one since I was a child.My main hobby is electronics but I do also have some other hobbies beside this.I do like baking cakes, just for joy and to please people whom I like.And I want to do this in a manner, where I can get the best taste / results. Doing so, means:looking for receipes, looking for good ingredients, looking on how others have done this,thinking about all this, try it then by yourself and change some things, until you are satisfied with the result.Sounds familiar? It should ...And these are some examples of my bakery:(I do not really have to mention that the life span of them are somewhat short)I doesn't really matter, what you are doing, but when you are doing it, you should do it in a good engineering way. Imho.

author: GK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2019, 10:10:51 am
content: Quote from: Kjelt on August 09, 2019, 11:48:47 pmI honestly don't see the value in bunk analogies with non-related fields of engineering.There is more than one pathway to an EE degree (in this country at least), some giving more emphasis to practical matters and experience than others. And I call BS to the claim that hardware development in EE is now such a minuscule minority that any shift towards the purely theoretical/abstract in the EE educational sector isn't of any negative consequence.IMO, it is a rather cute and utopian idea that what is beneficial for industry is necessarily reflected in the focus of the educational sector. Labs full of equipment cost money to maintain and run and this, seemingly more than ever nowadays, gets served the short straw by a colleges business model.It is a rarer thing now to find a graduate engineer who was imbibed with the practical skills and direction early in their education that allowed them to pursue the rigors of engineering on their own accord to such an extent that they can actually show and demonstrate to you something impressive that they've successfully developed and built. Filling a hardware engineering role from a talent pool devoid of this quality thus becomes more of a pot-shot than it by all rights should be.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2019, 10:18:30 am
content: Quote from: GK on August 10, 2019, 10:10:51 amIt was always rare.Do you have any hard evidence for your statement "It is a rarer thing now...", or is this just that you have more experience now and are looking back with rose-tinted spectacles?How much of a "pot shot" it is depends on your interviewing skills.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2019, 10:32:38 am
content: Quote from: taydin on August 10, 2019, 09:09:51 amThat is exactly what you learn in college/university, abstract analytical thinking and scientific fact based conclusions.QuoteNo you turn it around. The statement is Engineers can't solder.My hypothesis is: if they don't teach it at a certain education than it is either in a majority of the cases not found necessary/relevant for the graduates career path.This seems to be valid. As discussed earlier in the middle level educations delivering technicians they do learn it. In the higher educations they do not. But they do for instance get classes in presenting for management. Who determines the curicula, the education board in close cooperation with businesses that hire the graduates. So my conclusion most of the businesses that hire MScEe don't expect these persons to solder.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2019, 10:53:45 am
content: This thread gets more interesting by the minutes.Let’s throw an analogy in. We have the IT field which was dominated by software architecture for the last 20 years or so. Turns out these guys got the label “astronaut architects” because their ivory towers were that high. The whole industry is shifting towards generalists and wide disparate knowledge because that leads to better product outcomes.Turns out people need full lifecycle experience in engineering regardless of field. Sure you can model a business domain and a programming interface but that doesn’t help when you delegate the construction of your ideas to your technicians and then they take it to production and the QA department suddenly raise a PO for a Cray XC to run it. This inevitably happens when the astronaut architect is up a mountainside somewhere and unavailable or has departed to his next contract gig. Money and time down the shitter. Competitive advantage gone. Customers departed. Circling the drain. There’s ten people lining up to take your work off you.This is directly applicable. Your astronaut design engineers need that experience. They need to know how to solder. They need production experience. They need QA experience. They need operational experience. And they need to have spent time talking to the customers who send someone else’s steaming pile of shit straight back when it wasn’t what they paid for. They need to be able to amble down to their product team which is taking their design through production and be able to help resolve problems and short cycle any design flaws. Even if it means sitting down with them and actually doing some hands on stuff. It builds trust, transfers experience and builds a strong team ethic.Flat hierarchies and strong division of labour is how you burn a company to the ground. Us and them. Sling it over the fence. Not my problem. Damn department X fault. That’s the cargo cult you build.As for “I’m not paying them to solder”. You’re paying them to deliver that product and whatever it requires to get there. More tools. More fingers in pots. More power to you.

author: GK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2019, 10:57:23 am
content: Quote from: tggzzz on August 10, 2019, 10:18:30 amI said "rarer", which implies a past state of "rare".Do you have any hard evidence for your opposition to the suggestion that it is rarer nowadays, or is this just that you have more experience now and fantasize that the hurdles that you were forced to negotiate were much higher in the past ?QuoteYes, it's obvious that you have great confidence in your skills in this regard and are happy to inform any lesser mortal that you have the opportunity to impose yourself upon.

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2019, 11:00:22 am
content: Not all EEs will design circuits and products. Some will go into sales, some into marketing, and others will do something else. Does a sales engineer need to know how to solder?

author: BU508A
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2019, 11:04:05 am
content: Quote from: madires on August 10, 2019, 11:00:22 amYes. Just: Yes! Imo.

author: Circlotron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2019, 11:04:14 am
content: Quote from: Warhawk on August 08, 2019, 07:05:26 pmWould they be tolerated if they were women that were hired under some gender equality quota thing?

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2019, 11:04:23 am
content: Quote from: madires on August 10, 2019, 11:00:22 amSales engineer should be sitting with the client and helping their integration with your product so yes. Marketoids need to sell sell sell so showing hands on via your YouTube portfolio (Keysight style but less cringeworthy) so yes. Otherwise those two teams have to go and bug the guys doing production and slow your product lifecycle down.Soldering in the EE industry is like operating Microsoft word. Just do it!It’s like being a car mechanic that doesn’t know how to use a screwdriver.Edit: also all this whining, I’m going to say that we could have spent some time teaching at least three people to solder properly

author: taydin
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2019, 11:36:26 am
content: Quote from: Kjelt on August 10, 2019, 10:32:38 amYes, this is valid. And I'm not saying that EE's without soldering skills are not qualified to work as engineers. You just need to pass the classes to be qualified. Heck, if you are a good money maker in designing circuits, most companies won't even care if you DON'T HAVE an EE diploma. Case in point, I'm an EE by education, but I had a career as embedded software engineer, and my company didn't ever demand to see my CS diplomaAn EE's ability to solder is an INDICATOR that this EE has great passion for his profession and that he's potentially a very good EE. So if I were to hire, I would move his CV to the top of the pile. During interview, I will probably find out that he built a lot of hobby circuits. And chances are very good that he is a good EE.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2019, 11:46:00 am
content: Quote from: bd139 on August 10, 2019, 10:53:45 amThat entirely depends on the product.For the "boring" products that are repetitons/mutations/elaborations of generic CRUD, then there's a good argument for that.For the "interesting" products that are based on specialist history and detailed knowledge of a particular topic, that's not the case. Examples: distributed in-memory caches, hard realtime operation, 8 digit DVMs, 100GS/s scopes, multithreaded C++ apps on multicore machines with NUMA memory...QuoteYes, but you wouldn't expect to find that range of expertise in a new graduate, which is the OP's beef.I don't expect a new graduate software developer to understand how C++ mis-interacts with L1/L2/L3 caches in a multiprocessor system with NUMA memory.QuoteI've seen that, in spades.QuoteYes, but letting an arbitrary developer, even an experienced one, loose on a production server is a recipe for disaster.Yes, but letting an arbitrary engineer, even an experienced one, loose on a production PCB is a recipe for disaster.The trick is getting the right level of specialisation and division of labour. Whodoesneed to deal with the eight fallacies of distributed computing? Everybody? Nobody?

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2019, 11:51:30 am
content: Quote from: taydin on August 10, 2019, 11:36:26 amEvery company I worked for cared about my electronic engineering degree; it wasalwaysrelevant. But the competent interview processes quickly established that I had the experience stated in my CV, and more. I never showed the actual diploma to anyone.QuoteYes, but I wouldn't use soldering as an indicator, I'd assume it.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2019, 11:58:29 am
content: Quote from: GK on August 10, 2019, 10:57:23 amStop avoiding the point.QuoteWell, that's a strawman argument, but yes I do have some such evidence.Only 10% of people went to higher education vs 50% nowadays, but the proportion of each school/university grade has remained the same.I've had secondary school maths teachers refuse to believe what we learned before 14. They believe it is only 16-18yo that learn calculus.QuoteI have had success, yes. That's because I have learned from other good (and bad) interviewers.Why do you think I regard you as a "lesser mortal"?

author: GK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2019, 12:10:48 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on August 10, 2019, 11:58:29 amHook, line and sinker.So the proposition that EE education was more rigorous and more diverse in scope in the past and the graduates of higher skill and quality probably isn't something that you'd argue with after all.

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2019, 12:40:45 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on August 10, 2019, 11:04:23 amFocused too much on electronics.Please take telecommunications (carriers/telcos/ISPs) for example. You'll find there a lot of EEs working in different areas and even a hands-on engineer running around in the data center or central office won't have a soldering iron. You might meet a grey beard with a forgotten wire wrapping tool in his tool bag, but no soldering iron.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2019, 12:43:35 pm
content: Our DC and telecoms guy is an amateur radio operator and worked as an EE for years. It’s why we hired him.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2019, 03:23:06 pm
content: Quote from: Kjelt on August 10, 2019, 07:57:51 amI have always thought that the way to ruin a perfectly good hobby is to do it for a living. I never wanted to work in electronics, I was happy playing with it for myself. Electrical can't really be much of a hobby but it's a good way to make a living. Just keep the hobby and profession separated. And, no, running circuits around the house, climbing through a hot attic or under a floor was never my idea of fun. Digging ditches for direct burial? Forget about it!So, do you hire the EE who learned Verilog, VHDL, C, Unix and a host of other marketable skills on the side or do you hire the guy who didn't take on any of the 'soft skills' but knows how to solder?There's only so much time in a 5 year program (even less in the 4 year variant) and unless electronics is a hobby, new EEs aren't going to have tech skills.Were I doing the interview, I think I'm going with the Verilog guy... And I don't care what their hobbies are. Unless I have to buy 'key man' insurance. Then I might frown on high risk hobbies.'Look at me! I'm a tech and I can solder!' versus 'Whatever, dude, I solve ODEs in my head... You do know what an ODE is, right?'.The tech versus engineer debate, however disguised, becomes tiresome. If techs could do the math, they would earn a lot more money.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2019, 04:00:41 pm
content: Quote from: taydin on August 08, 2019, 09:07:24 pmAnd the budding professional ME will get that experience during their 4 year apprenticeship as they prepare for the PE exam. Nobody expects a new grad to actually know anything beyond the book work and math. Everything else is learned on the job.That's why the PE exam and the registration process is done in two parts: Engineering Fundamentals during 3rd or 4th year (or post graduation) and the PE exam itself after 4 years working under another PE. Letters of recommendation, etc.These days there is a registration process for electronics engineers but registration isn't mandatory. If it was, we'd be in deep trouble because there is no way an electronics engineer, 10 years post graduation, will pass the Engineering Fundamentals exam. The stuff is too far back in memory. It's a good thing that various colleges offer weekend preparation classes.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2019, 04:04:05 pm
content: Quote from: GK on August 10, 2019, 12:10:48 pmNot quite; you seem to find whatever it is you are looking for, whether or not it is there.Go back and read my previous statements. They arealsotrue, even where they conflict with your preconceptions.

author: Red Squirrel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2019, 04:07:38 pm
content: Maybe I'm wrong here but IMO a proper engineer in any field should not only know how to design something but they should know how to actually build it too. Anyone can design something (whether it's a good design or not is another story), but it takes skill to physically build it and make it work. In fact in that very process you may find that the design is not good and then improve it. You can know how a machine works, but it's a whole other thing to actually build that machine. Basically book smart vs practical smart. The practical smart guy is the one that makes stuff happen.Had an IT manager who used to rave about how much education he had and how much better than us he was. He did have quite high education, PHDs in computer science and various management related certs and stuff like that which he proudly displayed in his office. To him, if you did not go to university you're a nobody. He used to always come in our office and rant about how incompetent some department was or even us, or some other rant about some incident that may have happened. We called it the soap box. Was a daily thing. One day he randomly picks up a hard drive off one of our desks and starts fidgeting with it waving it around and sometimes dropping it back on the desk while he's giving us some speech and is like "what is this thing anyway?". All that education and he can't ID a basic computer part. Put that guy in a situation where something stopped working and it needs to be fixed and he'll have no idea what to do other than ask somebody else to do it.

author: GK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2019, 06:13:25 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on August 10, 2019, 04:04:05 pmUm, nice deflection, but there is no conflict with my preconceptions, regardless of whatever you imagine them to be.From your position of superior experience you decided to take issue with my claim that:"It is a rarer thing now to find a graduate engineer who was imbibed with the practical skills and direction early in their education that allowed them to pursue the rigors of engineering on their own accord to such an extent that they can actually show and demonstrate to you something impressive that they've successfully developed and built. Filling a hardware engineering role from a talent pool devoid of this quality thus becomes more of a pot-shot than it by all rights should be."Now I can give a few facts in support of my position that are undeniably true and, in contrast to your facts not just nebulously related to the point of contention.When I started in the workforce 22 years ago as a lowly production assembler in an RF firm, a large proportion (if not the majority in some cases) of my work colleagues who were degree-qualified engineers, or studying towards being so, initially attained an Associate Diploma (now Advanced Diploma) in Electrical/Electronic engineering whilst employed in some capacity in a technician or "technical grades" role.With more easy job opportunities in the field (and in general) available back then (and for other reasons) societal pressure to get out into the workforce to "earn you keep" after matriculating in high school was much higher than it is today. An associate diploma was much less of a slog than a full degree and counted for a significant amount credit towards a degree when that time came, so this was just a natural career and educational path/progression for many to take.Another major reason that this career path was popular was a general knowledge/perception of the fact that once you had finally obtained your degree in this way your were significantly more experienced and valuable to and more highly regarded by industry than the poor sap who slogged out a full degree right out of high school. Unless you were exceptionally dull or up against a fresh degree-only graduate who was exceptionally bright, the odds at interview time could range anything from slight to overwhelmingly in you favor. There was some genuine and at times pretty virulent prejudice here that I can clearly recall for sure, but this prejudice for what it was wasn't entirely without foundation - in just the plain reality of experience.There were of course degree-only guys who could hold their own, but they worked hard on their own accord extracurricularly in order to get to that level (they simply had to, to be competitive) and IMO (and I really don't give a toss what anyone else thinks) the educational system back then much better equipped them with the skills required to do so. These days I have a friend quite far through a so-called mechatronics degree whose only exposure to programming languages so far is modifying (not writing) Arduino sketches in the robotics lab (According to his professor there isn't a budget for better development systems). Knob twiddling on the oscilloscope is something that is done by the prof. and myfirst-yearapprenticeship studies on op-amp theory and Nyquist stability criterion are completely beyond him. So much for solving ODEs (or any other kind of DEs) in his head; my webpage on chaotic attractor circuits makes him equate me to Einstein, which is embarrassing to say the least. 20 years ago this scenario for me would have been completely unfathomable.Nowadays the landscape has changed markedly. Technician and and Technical Grades job roles have evaporated. Though demand for electronics and electrical engineers has declined markedly too, I don't know what proportion of fresh degree graduates these days have an Advanced Diploma as a career stepping stone, but from my observations it's a much lesser proportion than it used to be. When it comes to interview time if you're up against other fresh graduates the chances are probably fairly remote nowadays that anyone of them will have significant industry experience in a specialized technical capacity already, so the impetus (and probably for other reasons as well) to develop yourself extracurricularly to give yourself that competitive edge just doesn't seem to be there anymore.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2019, 06:33:24 pm
content: You have your experience, I have mine.This statement of yours is revealing, and comes as little surprise to me...Quote from: GK on August 10, 2019, 06:13:25 pmWhy do you refer to yourself as a "lowlyproduction assembler" (myemphasis)? Production assemblers are as important to a company's success as other people, including but not limited to engineers. Nurses are as valuable as doctors.Overall you come across as someone that feels inferior, and who has a chip on their shoulder. Given your previous comments and the tone you used, I suspected that might be the case; using the term "lowly" confirms my suspicion.It is much more difficult to deal with someone whofeelsinferior than it is to deal with someone that is content with their limitationsand strengths. We all have limitations; in a team my strengths cover your weaknessesand vice versa.For the record, I know I am third rate at best. I know that because there are some people that I listen to carefully,particularlywhen they disagree with me - because I am going to learn something. I also know that those people are in awe of other people, for similar reasons.

author: GK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2019, 07:32:26 pm
content: Nothing wrong with having a chip on ones shoulder; anyone who doesn't naturally coalesce with the sheeple has them stacked up to some degree.Quote from: tggzzz on August 10, 2019, 06:33:24 pmUm, I simply started at the bottom of the fields evolutionary pay scale. I'm not particularly ashamed of that fact either. Thanks for the reassuring words though. Monday morning I will attempt to convince the pay office that I am as important as the CEO.

author: Bassman59
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 11, 2019, 04:26:21 am
content: Quote from: GK on August 09, 2019, 05:14:47 pmOr you could be like my cousin, who's a few years younger than me. He's got a bachelor's and a master's degree in Electrical Engineering and he designs graphics chips at that big Silicon Valley company everyone's heard of. He doesn't own a soldering iron or have a bunch of test equipment taking up space at home, and my bet is he doesn't have any of that in his office. I mean, there's no way to do any rework on a GPU board, right? And I'm sure he hasn't used an oscilloscope since a junior-year electronics lab.So he sits in front of the computer, wrangling HDL and setting up scripts that run test vectors or place-and-route overnight and he gets paid a fuckload of money so he can afford to live in that part of the country.And I bet that the majority of the people reading this thread think, "well, he's not arealelectrical engineer because he doesn't solder." That's a bunch of provincialist bullshit. Listen to yourselves!This thread reminds me of the "Letters" column of the old punk rock 'zine, "Maximumrockandroll," where everyone endlessly debated "WHAT IS PUNK?" and the punker-than-thou attitude turned off a lot of kids who liked the music but didn't want to conform to what someone else said was punk. Hell, even Jawbreaker wrote a song with the refrain, "One, two, three, four, who's punk, what's the score?" And when those kids said, "hey, your purity tests -- that's pretty much the antithesis of punk!" they got yelled at. Luckily most of those kids said "fuck you" and did their own thing.

author: GK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 11, 2019, 05:40:33 am
content: Quote from: Bassman59 on August 11, 2019, 04:26:21 amHmpf.I bet for the most part they're not really. Judgements people pass on the required qualities of a "real" engineer, technician or whatever need to read in the context of their field of experience - what qualities count in their world of engineering. Within these individual contexts most of the demands sound reasonable to me. EE is a vast and varied field. Your cousins engineering life is so far removed from anything I've been exposed to over ~22 years of variety that he might as well be from Mars, and that isn't in anyway a criticism.