Do Power Line Fields Cause Cancer? (Class Discussion Assignment) - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Cyberdragon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2018, 05:18:40 pm
content: I normally avoid paranoid rubbish, but this time it's shoved down my throat as a class assignment.Well, I guess dealing with tech paranoia is a legitimate concern.In a nutshell:"What is your opinion on a couple debating whether they should move out so the power lines don't kill their children?"There's not much info, but it seems they are not under the lines, they are just nearby (I would assume high-tension, although not specified). In that case, it's impossible, more electromagnetic fields would be generated in the house then from the lines. Even if you were under them, the exposure limits are very low unless under some extreme conditions. She obviously wants us to explain the technical aspects, and how the dosage can be measured and compared to safe limits.However, I know there's some leaky snakes here that will come out to play...let the chaos ensue...

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2018, 05:23:02 pm
content: They could install taller fences around the property line, so the children cannot climb them.That's literally the only known (rational) way it could be acutely deadly.Perhaps more along the lines of intended response, you could talk about the subject at face value.Perhaps alongside the lines of intended response, you could talk about the psychology of people concerned with it. Jackpot prize: you thoroughly convince the teacher than this nonsense can safely be forgotten!Tim

author: Ampera
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2018, 05:30:12 pm
content: The radiant energy of power lines compared to other sources of EM radiation like the sun is so drastically different, and at such a low frequency, you would get skin cancer from the sun before you got any sort of cancer from power lines.EM radio transmissions have been in common use since around the 1920's and we have yet to observe any major adverse effects. The wave frequency is just too low, and the energy too small to have done anything.I guess I speak anecdotally, but I find it hard to believe that there is even the potential energy through the shielding of oxygen and potentially other materials to even cause things like cancer causing DNA mutations. Sunlight has way more transmitted energy, moves through transparent mediums far better, can generate heat on contact, and will still take really long, common exposures to cause a serious cancer.I still state that I don't have the research to back this up, but this is as I see it. If an effect is present at low frequencies and power levels, I believe it should be observable to a higher degree at drastically increased levels, so if it does have a cancer causing, or miscellaneous adverse effect, I'd see if anybody who works closely with high power high frequency television transmissions has had adverse effects.

author: woodchips
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2018, 05:58:00 pm
content: In the UK we have power lines running at 470kV on pylons 200', 50m, to the top. With sag the wires are, say, a minimum of 100' above ground. So simple maths says that there is (approximately!) 4.7kV for every 1' of gap. So if you happen to be 5' high then your head is at 5*4.7=23.5kV higher than your feet.Why aren't you dead?Do you use that aluminium foil damp proof lining for wall paper?What level of em field balance is obtained from a 3ph power line?Sure there are many other frightening scenarios that can be created.If, of course, you didn't have any electricity then that would result in a very quick death.

author: mleyden
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2018, 06:24:37 pm
content: https://www.cancer.gov/about-cancer/causes-prevention/risk/radiation/electromagnetic-fields-fact-sheetMany moons ago I was looking into this at a power station... We did some tests around the control room. All the power passed under the floor. All the computer screens would flicker really badly (which would make me sick on it's own!) - I never felt comfortable there, but a lot of that could be in your head.There were some papers suggesting possibilities of links of cancer in children to living beside power lines (see above link). I often thought that naturally occuring radiation (radon) could, possibly, end up being concentrated near high voltage power lines. But I never saw evidence for that...

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2018, 06:48:26 pm
content: I haven't seen any evidence of power lines causing cancer, although I wouldn't want to live right under lines because it would likely wreak havoc on my radio hobbies. Several years ago some friends and I tried holding a fluorescent tube up under some high tension lines and it really did glow. I have wondered though if a big coil in the attic could harvest a useful amount of "free" energy from overhead transmission lines.

author: ucanel
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2018, 07:50:19 pm
content: As an another slightly related subjectthere is a beleif that power line transmission workers have generally female children butI have never seen a research or search it myself.Power line or commonly anything may not cause directly cancer butthey may higher the risk or may trigger some mechanism.Every seconds millions cells dividing, there are very tiny mechanics in the celland at this scale elegtromagnetic forces are powerfull enough to effect DNA replication.There is also error correction mechanism in the cell replication though.I think all electromagnatic emissions that can penetrate cell membrane has minor or major effectsbut I do not mean these would be directly the reason of cancer.DNA is 2 nanometer wide.Good example for visiualization of cell or DNA replication mechanism:

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2018, 08:25:38 pm
content: It's too complicated- is it the E-field, B-field, frequency, EMF. One study finds something, another study finds nothing.I encourage you to stand close to 240kV switchyard for 15 minutes and tell me if you feel different. The corona generates ozone, but my head sure gets dizzy."Comparing the children who had cancer with a control group of 29,000 children without cancer but who lived in comparable districts, found that children whose birth address was within 200 metres of an overhead power line had a 70% increased risk of leukemia. Children living 200 to 600 m away from power lines had a 20% increased risk.“To put these results in perspective, our study shows that about five of the 400 cases of childhood leukemia every year may be linked to power lines – which is about 1% of cases,” says Gerald Draper at Oxford University, who led the study. “The condition is very rare and people living near power lines should have no cause for concern.”"https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn7460-large-study-links-power-lines-to-childhood-cancer/Ref. British Medical Journal (vol 330, p 1290)Later study British Journal of Cancer says "No childhood leukemia risk from power lines"."It's very encouraging to see that in recent decades there has been no increased risk of leukemia among children born near overhead power lines," says lead author Kathryn Bunch.

author: Vtile
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2018, 08:53:14 pm
content: IEC defines some levels for field strengths just based on these reasons (rtfm!).Might have been in CENELEC HD 637 or IEC 61936-1, but can't remember off hand.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2018, 09:40:37 pm
content: So, the Oxford study shows a statically significant increase in Leukemia for kids living close to power lines and then kisses it off as irrelevant? They 'feel' it is not a significant risk but the 'facts' show otherwise. I'll bet the researcher's kids aren't living under power lines.I would try to find the entire paper, cite it and blow off the 'feelings'. Just the fact that Leukemia is 70% more likely for kids living close to power lines settles the discussion - for me.

author: grumpydoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2018, 10:07:23 pm
content: Quote from: rstofer on April 03, 2018, 09:40:37 pmIt was a case control study so not that great at proving causation, just correlation and I shouldn't need to tell anyone here that correlation != causation. It's also a bit odd that it was correlated with birth address - if there is an effect it presumably is more likely to be on the parents (or at any rate their gonads).Also, you need to appreciate the difference between relative and absolute risk - in the UK there are about 11,000,000 children under the age of 15, and about 1800 cases of childhood cancer, 1 in 3 of which are leukaemia (so, about 600 - if the paper said 400 we are about in the right ballpark) - so, per annum about a 1:18000 chance of getting leukaemia - fairly small, even if we make that 70% more likely which comes out to 1:10500 it's still not that high a risk and, of course, percentage wise I'll bet that only a minority live within 200m of a 220kV or 470kV line.Hence the comment that only about 1% of childhood leukaemia could be considered connected (not caused) by living (or having parents who lived) in close proximity to a power line.Which leads me to the last thing to be aware of - the difference between statistical significance and clinical significance. The link might be statistically significant but it is notclinicallysignificant.There are likely to be other much more relevant risk factors to go after before getting to this one.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 04, 2018, 08:57:06 am
content: Quote from: rstofer on April 03, 2018, 09:40:37 pmThis is a serious question: What "facts" are you talking about?If it's the EM field emanating, then that's one observation ... but how do youknowit is THAT which is causing the effect of interest? Are there not hundreds, if not thousands of other environmental factors that could be involved?

author: dmills
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2018, 09:38:09 am
content: My take is that epidemiology is hard, with many, many confounding factors.The question is not 'do you find clusters of cancer near high voltage lines, but do you find a cluster of cancer near almost every HV line?Simple statistics says that if you do enough tests some will come back positive, for the common p < 0.05 case, 1 in twenty false positives are to be expected, but if low frequency E or B fields were a significant contributor you would expect to see clusters along MOST lines not just a few.Finding clusters in low probability random random data is EXPECTED, in fact if the data is too smooth it is an indication that it is not in fact random.I would also note that many of these lines originate at old coal fired plants, and I am quite prepared to believe that a coal fired power plant causes cancer, just the radioactivity from the ash would make me suspicious around that, let alone some of the more interesting combustion products. Hell, maybe railways (Which also tend to connect to said coal fired plants) cause cancer? Maybe it is the water treatment chemicals used in the boiler feedwater, maybe something else, but the point is that tying a cluster to one specific thing is hard. Note, I am NOT saying that coal fired plants cause cancer, I am saying that it would not particularly surprise me to learn that they did.I would also note that there is a known correlation between clusters of slightly odd cancers and large scale new building projects, so I would not for example be surprised to see one one near a new build power plant even before the magnets spin for the first time, last I heard nobody knew what the mechanism was.I tend to conclude that there is way insufficient evidence to support the hypothesis and that more then enough of the studies I have seen support a null result.I wonder if Cochrane have done anything on this, those meta studies tend to be as close to definitive as anything gets in epidemiology but it is probably too out there to interest them.Regards, Dan.

author: Electro Detective
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2018, 10:07:56 am
content: If there was any cancer danger it would show up as erratic readings on sensitive wide band multimeters and oscilloscopes,never seen it happen, next to or far away from the big towers, or street pole and underground single and 3 phase.If the 3 phase lines were badly unbalanced you might get irregular readings, never seen that either.50 or 60 hz hum can be annoying from appliances but no big dealYou're more likely to get cancered eating junk food, baking pale skin under a hot sun, ink poisoning and infections from tattoos,chewing on cheap multimeter leads or scraping ears with the probes, smoking cigarettes,or force fed Autotuned piglet music at the supermarketBesides, there would be no contributing grey beards () here alive,'Power Line Fields' at work, home and in the mancave/banishment sheds would have wacked them out years ago

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 04, 2018, 10:44:33 am
content: Quote from: Electro Detective on April 04, 2018, 10:07:56 amAn interesting assertion ... but where is your proof?

author: VK5RC
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 04, 2018, 11:15:38 am
content: There are really only two common study types, the best is the 'randomised double blind prospective study' - clearly this will never occur re living near HV power lines.The other is the 'case control', which is the type of studies that have been done here. The real problem for case control studies are there can be confounding factors that you haven't thought about.You also should be able to show some dose-response relationship and a reasonable mechanism for causality.The real 'elephant in the room' is that living near power lines clearly is associated with some social inequity - a well known association of poor health outcomes in many areas of health outcomes.

author: Harb
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2018, 11:26:04 am
content: When you have answered this question, you can then work out how people that live under power lines can milk the magnetic fields they create to get free power to make the whole thing a worth while exercise

author: DenzilPenberthy
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2018, 12:32:30 pm
content: Aside from EM fields and the obvious confounding factors (like lifestyle differences in people who live near power lines and people who can afford not to)...Some work was done by a research group some time ago where I work which I think got some pretty solid evidence that actually you don't want to live *downwind* of HV power lines. The corona effects and strong E fields can make air pollution particles cluster into charged clumps of particles which can lodge more effectively in the lungs and give you a higher dose of carcinogens...http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/933678.stm

author: BillB
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 04, 2018, 01:06:12 pm
content: Quote from: Electro Detective on April 04, 2018, 10:07:56 amUh oh.Quote from: Electro Detective on April 04, 2018, 10:07:56 am

author: BillB
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 04, 2018, 01:15:55 pm
content: Quote from: VK5RC on April 04, 2018, 11:15:38 amAs with many of these studies, without examining the methodology I usually take the results with a large grain of salt. I've seen too many where the selection of factors for multivariate regression has been problematic or perhaps even biased. For example, datasets that included 37 obscure variables while excluding basic ones that would have surely changed the results.

author: dmills
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2018, 02:33:20 pm
content: They call it P value hacking.Annoyingly common among papers published in the lower tier journals.Regards, Dan.

author: Vtile
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2018, 02:40:52 pm
content: Quote from: Electro Detective on April 04, 2018, 10:07:56 amI just want to show the "wildly erratic readings", here is a photo I took last summer from under a local 110 kV HV line, when friend of mine didn't believe there is substantial electrical field under them through thin air. Meter do show only 8 Vac on picture, but I did lift the probe and the piece of copper clad above my head the readings were somewhere between 40 to 70 volts AC 50Hz. ...And that meter is't even that sensitive in AC ranges (only about 100 Mohm if I interpret the manual correctly ), I can also measure those fields at my home (old wooden house, full of electrical wiring from different decades) at some places and situations (not as high). I then took the unit to my off the grid fishing cabin where there is no electrical power lines in several miles, the meter show dead zero as it were broken.I do not claim it causes cancer, but the suspect is one reason among others that it is given somewhere in the HV standards as a maximum level for long time exposure.Edit. Did locate my notes about the identification of the line tension from insulation discs.. >20kV to 110kV

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2018, 02:41:13 pm
content: Relevanthttps://xkcd.com/882/

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 04, 2018, 03:11:20 pm
content: Quote from: T3sl4co1l on April 04, 2018, 02:41:13 pmAlthough it's a joke, given that the different colors use different chemicals, there actually could be a particular color that causes adverse health effects.

author: Leiothrix
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 05, 2018, 01:31:52 am
content: Sorry there is no source for this:I remember reading an article about a bunch of people along a HV distribution line getting sick.They of course blamed it on the electricity.After a number of years of complaints there was an actual investigation. It was the herbicide that the contractors were spraying to keep the easement clear of weeds that was the problem.So to answer the OP's question, it is possible that the field around a power line could cause cancer.

author: hamster_nz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 05, 2018, 08:46:52 am
content: I would be more concerned that the chromic stress of living with the idea that they cause cancer would be a bad for their health (and that of their kids) long term. Aside from the technical issue around EMF, if they are seriously concerned then they should consider moving, That said, it is none of my business. They a welcome to be in control of their lives.The more useful question is this: If they moved out, would you choose to raise your family there?For me, I have lived a few 100m from power lines without any concerns.Also, doesn't the inverse square 'law' only apply to point sources, where the field is spherical? Would not a long linear sources with long wave lengths (like a power cable) cause the field to drop off more linearly, as the field is cylindrical?

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 05, 2018, 09:08:22 am
content: Just a point on the correlation event with leukaemia above which was carried out in the U.K.Houses under or near power lines tend to go for less money than other houses. This means they get bought by people on a lower income and for council social care. People in both of those situations have a higher propensity of leukaemia anyway.

author: Electro Detective
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 05, 2018, 09:51:13 am
content: Quote from: bd139 on April 05, 2018, 09:08:22 amThey eat crap, become obese, lazyass and lethargic, smoke too much, drink cheap boozeand take medication to counteract the ill effects of such a slack lifestyle and their BS 'depression'I doubt any debated EMF radiation would get much of a chance to squeeze in some some cancer action too, with such human trainwrecks

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 05, 2018, 09:55:01 am
content: It might, but that doesn't stop the incidence being higher elsewhere where there aren't power lines.

author: hamster_nz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 05, 2018, 10:07:15 am
content: Strangely enough the cancer rates are *lower* in areas with higher natural radiation levels...Quotehttps://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3526327/Maybe they should move to a high natural radiation areas in Poland...

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 05, 2018, 10:53:01 am
content: Quote from: Leiothrix on April 05, 2018, 01:31:52 amWhether you can cite a reference or not, the fact is that this is a plausible explanation. Who's to say there aren't more such factors that have nothing to do with EM fields?

author: Galenbo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 05, 2018, 12:06:42 pm
content: Quote from: hamster_nz on April 05, 2018, 10:07:15 amMaybe the higher natural radiation caused natural selection, potential radiation-victims are eliminated from the start.Moving doesn't sound like a good idea in that case.

author: Galenbo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 05, 2018, 12:08:41 pm
content: Quote from: Cyberdragon on April 03, 2018, 05:18:40 pmPower lines bring electricity to hospitals.They heal cancer, they are the solution, not the problem.

author: Gribo
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 05, 2018, 12:45:18 pm
content: We had a joke that all RF engineers had only girls, then a friend of mine started working with us, over the next 10 years he had 5 boys.