Turnkey SMT line with good support around Chicago - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: radiostuff
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 02, 2022, 03:20:01 pm
content: There's a chance that we may need to build a new product locally and we need a little more flexibility and responsiveness than what the local CMs can provide. Which SMT line vendors are best for low-volume, low-mix, and fewest headaches for new manufacturers?Based on my limited knowledge, I assume it's Europlacer. But I have no real knowledge on the subject. I'll definitely be asking this question on SMTnet, but it seems like this forum is more suited towards non-CMs.

author: loki42
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 02, 2022, 09:58:05 pm
content: New or used and what price range? Pick and place is just one of the bits and stencil printing has been the most fiddly part for me. I bought a few things from Chicago and shipped them to Australia. If you're looking for used Capital equipment is in Chicago though the MPM machine i got from them in "excellent condition" needed quite a few repairs. It might have been wiggled loose on the long journey though. I'd go and see whatever your going to buy running and try setting up a basic board to get a feel for the software.I got a used universal Genesis GX11 and GC30 and an mpm printer. The mpm is a beautiful bit of kit when it's working... but mine has done millions of prints so it's a lot different than new.I'd look at the size, cost and availability of feeders. Panasonic and Fuji look to make good machines too but I the europlacers are common with low volume shops.I'd outsource it if you in any way can.

author: mon2
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 03, 2022, 11:56:33 am
content: My 2 bits are with Yamaha / Assembleon. The support from Transtec has been excellent. The initial sales for the machinery (Assembleon X) was one way - after the sale and cashing the cheques, bye bye. Our line ran idle for years out of fear and not being up to posted specs. The used feeders were shit / alignment was not correct. After the lifetime support from the factory and constant asking of questions, we are up and running. Now feeling confident and would purchase Yamaha again. We are considering the YSM20 series to increase our production speed.If you are not yet ready - follow the above advice - outsource it. The placement costs in China are pennies as compared to USA. A board we paid (too much for locally) @ $10 is under $1.25 USD in China with even better quality. Yes, a pain to organize the builds in China but the results are worth it.If you need names for a China build, can post them here.Varying with the complexity, post more details and perhaps someone here or on the SMTNET forum can take on your jobs locally.We drove to Capital Equipment years ago before buying our SMT line. The warehouse had lots of equipment but the vendor just said ' you are not ready for this equipment '. Nice. In summary - they will not support it after the sale. Best to work with the factory who manufactures the equipment so you will have support. Transtec is the agent for Yamaha in the US.If you buy from China then the support and warranty is only as good as the vendor who sold you the equipment. Many options out of China BUT the equipment is likely to be also with higher mileage than perhaps the local equipment. Also, the equipment from China will not have factory support locally - FYI.Watch out for hydro compliance - that is UL / CSA / CE, etc. Our Heller was not ready to be used in Canada - even though we requested it on the purchase order. Caused some chaos during the installation. Had a rough start with the oven when it was installed (brand new but built in Shanghai). Since then - the support from Heller support has been top notch. We have had each issue resolved. Recently did a repair that took about a week. Would consider them again for future business. The local reseller for Heller is again, like a used car salesman. Zero support after the sale.We lost years of potential revenue and outsourcing to an overpriced local SMT house. The same #1 local SMT shop changed owners and their quality is now in the gutter. No sense of responsibility of non-working PCBAs / broken parts on the PCBA, etc. Not sure how they can retain their ISO status with low quality builds.There are too many real estate style of resellers of such equipment so proceed with caution before you hand over your payment.

author: jmelson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 03, 2022, 10:19:46 pm
content: Quote from: mon2 on November 03, 2022, 11:56:33 amI ran a Philips CSM84 (made by Yamaha) here for 13 years. it was an extremely reliable machine, but had old-school alignment jaws on the nozzles, and was not accurate enough for what I was doing. That product line eventually became Assembleon. I now have a Quad/Samsung QSA30A which is a vastly more complicated machine, with flying vision, ANC and electronic feeders. It has not been very reliable, but that is likely due to having been stored for 16 YEARS!! in unconditioned space in Austin TX before going to auction. Programming the vision parameters is a lot more work than the old Philips, but then you only need to program each part once.Jon

author: loki42
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 03, 2022, 10:34:13 pm
content: We really need to know if you're looking for new or used. I'd pretty much ignore all our opinions on used stuff if you're going new as my Universals for example are 15 years old and the current company is probably quite different. In the case of assembleon / Philips / Quad / Samsung / Sony etc those companies have been sold many times and don't really exist in the form they did 15 years ago. Someone who bought a ASM, Fuji, Panasonic or Europlacer new is going to have a very different purchase and use experience. My interactions with MPM and Essemtec have been good. Universal has very good documentation but they seem horrifically bureaucratic.

author: SMTech
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 04, 2022, 09:32:46 am
content: Quote from: radiostuff on November 02, 2022, 03:20:01 pmEuroplacer make the ideal machine for low volume, high mix environments, making them popular with CEMs. This market requires quick easy changeover, easy loading/unloading of feeders quick programming & setup of new jobs & components/packages. Europlacer and MyData address this market in very similar ways, separating the mechanical half of the feeder (as a trolley or cassette) from the bit ("element") the holds the tape and peel/slices off the cover tape. This means another team/staff member can be picking and loading all the parts for the next job into spare "elements, ready to click into the cassette quickly, these elements cost quite a bit less than a modern smart electronic feeder but they're still not exactly cheap, costing several times more than a pneumatic Yamaha clone. the other advantage both those platforms have (to varying extends depending on model) is a huge feeder capacity. That means you really can have a single machine doing the placement AND you can potentially leave a large number of your component parts in feeders on the machine and never move them. The only similar (high feeder count flexplacer) Asian machine would be the Panasonic AM100. However unless you like the sound of the features that aren't exclusively of interest to a high mix user, they are massive machines so I'd ask yourself a few questions.What do you consider low volume?How many lines on a BOM and what size tapes would they come on?How much support do you want?What is your budget?How big are your boards/panels?What is the technology level/pitch etc?Is there anything in your contract requirements that makes it harder for your local CEMs to be responsive?From here you can work out if the oven can be a small VP batch oven, how many feeders you need, how big & how automated the printer needs to be, if you need one smt machine, two machines or one big one and if your buying at auction, refurbished or new.

author: jmelson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 04, 2022, 06:50:45 pm
content: The big question you need to ask about P&P is how many different parts will be on a board. I recently did a board that had 28 different parts on one side. That used up almost all of the feeder space on my machine, and it is a fairly large machine, over 5 feet on a side! Note that feeders for tape wider than 8mm take up more room than the small ones. Most of the newer, cheaper Chinese machines are quite limited on how many feeders they can handle.Jon

author: loki42
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 04, 2022, 10:58:43 pm
content: Yeah, I've currently got around 90 parts on the machines and plenty of space free even with some 88mm, 44mm, 32mm. I'm not sure if most machines support dual lane 8mm but they are handy though a little constraint is that the ones I've got need to have the same pitch for both lanes. 30 dual lane 8mm only take up 30 slots for 60 parts.Being able to feed from small bits of cut tape would be handy for smaller runs and I think that's easier with some machines.