Microsoft has developed a low level Linux subsystem - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: blueskull
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 21, 2016, 11:45:25 am
content: Introduced with Windows 10 SP1 (anniversary version), MS has developed an interface that allows Linux programs to run natively under Windows.No, I'm not talking about the MSYS or CygWin kind of thing that requires recompilation with Windows libraries, I'm talking about a real Windows subsystem that emulates Linux environment from NT kernel.And no, it is not running PE files -- Windows now can load and execute x86 and amd64 ELF files natively.The demonstration implementation of this new Linux subsystem is a Ubuntu system (can be installed from control panel), WITHOUT recompile. All packages are retrieved directly from official Ubuntu repo, and runs just fine under Windows.Of course, low level bare metal kernel features are not available, so lm-sensors, lsmod, modprobe and all other kernel module based apps can not run.

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2016, 01:49:27 pm
content: Not a new idea at all.http://www.andlinux.org/index.phphttps://tuxdiary.com/2015/03/12/foreign-linux/

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2016, 05:49:52 pm
content: Thanks for posting this! Now I can use my Linux toolchains on my Surface Book without trying to dual boot. This is going to be great!

author: whitevamp
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2016, 08:23:32 pm
content: here is a bit of a read on this shortly after it was announced.http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2016/04/why-microsoft-needed-to-make-windows-run-linux-software/and then there is this.Ubuntu for Windows 10 it is done from the Windows Store.The size of the download is about 200 MBs.Bash on Ubuntu on Windows 10 does not work on the 32 bit version of Windows 10, because it requires Hyper-VFor more information about Bash and the Windows 10 Anniversary Update, check out the following articles:https://blogs.windows.com/buildingapps/2016/03/30/run-bash-on-ubuntu-on-windows/http://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/insider/wiki/insider_wintp-insider_install/frequently-asked-questions-windows-10-anniversary/c3778392-8fcf-4e32-b652-d8e187cc48e0

author: Karel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2016, 06:40:42 am
content: Wine for windows?A compatibility layer capable of running Linux applications on windows.Maybe nice for sysadmins that needs to maintain windows and Linux servers.Apart from that, I can't see any advantages. It's faster and easier to installa native Linux os than windows these days...Or, grab a Virtualbox Linux image. Apart from 3D graphics, everything works.

author: Red Squirrel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2016, 11:34:14 pm
content: That's kind of neat. Nice to see MS embracing Linux... though in reality I'm sure they have a reason for it, it may or may not be bad.

author: bitseeker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2016, 12:30:23 am
content: Reminds me of the classic Microsoft tactic: embrace, extend, exterminate.

author: helius
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2016, 12:31:27 am
content: The point of wine is a free implementation of the Windows API. It is not simply so people can run Windows and Linux at the same time.

author: timb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2016, 02:45:39 am
content: Quote from: bitseeker on August 23, 2016, 12:30:23 amJesus... Microsoft *really* are the Borg, aren't they?Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated.

author: whitevamp
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2016, 03:33:56 am
content: Quote from: timb on August 23, 2016, 02:45:39 amthat's the way the have all ways been!!

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2016, 04:21:49 am
content: I used to use the MKS toolkit. Some of the older FPGA tools would install a shell as well under Windows. I would like to have seen something like VirtualBox added on, with support for pass thru. I understand that VirtualBox has this feature but only for UNIX.My new PC is running Windows 10. I'm a diehard XP user and switching has been a struggle (as always). Currently porting over some of my projects to run on it.A few tricks that has saved me so far is holding the shift then pressing the restart to get into some of special features, for example installing unsigned drivers. Using the services to disable the Windows Updates. It was really a nightmare with my slow connection speeds. Ran into a small snag printing. Select the Windows Update (to gain more drivers) and they download ever printer driver available. You would think it would be smarter how this is handled as I needed one driver.As much as I tried to turn off all the bullshit settings, the thing still wanted me to know that some candy land game was available.

author: helius
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2016, 05:45:43 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on August 23, 2016, 03:50:10 amI predict millions of slight shrugs. "The Linux community" does not care what Microsoft does. (Except that they universally spell it "Micro$oft" or "Microshit").QuoteOpenGL has existed on Windows since day one. What are you calling "Native X"? X11 is not "native" on Linux any more than on any other OS, because it is a platform-independent system. Any program that uses X11 for display has always been able to display on Windows.

author: Karel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2016, 07:39:41 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on August 22, 2016, 11:44:40 pmYou think that the biggest contributors to Linux (Redhat, Intel, Texas Instruments, IBM, Google, AMD, ARM, Samsung) are anti-capitalism or have the kind of OS creed?

author: setq
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2016, 08:42:39 am
content: I can think of precisely nothing useful or good about anything to do with the whole "Microsoft loves Linux" stuff.It's a combination of scary and embarrassing especially after the last 20 years of "Linux is a cancer" etc.

author: Karel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2016, 09:39:22 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on August 23, 2016, 09:08:22 amI think microsoft do have some HARDCORE OS believers.Quote from: blueskull on August 23, 2016, 09:08:22 amThose companies are not just using Linux. They are actively contributing and sharing code.There are no companies using microsoft software to make money or reduce cost?

author: hans
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2016, 12:27:20 pm
content: Quote from: blueskull on August 23, 2016, 09:08:22 amhttps://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.en.htmlQuoteFree software is free to download, modify and use, but that does not mean free to develop and maintain. After all, it costs time. Time is not free, not for an individual learning it, but definitely not for a company. It can require human capital investments to educate your people or hire the right specialists for the job. It can still be a cost reduction of course, but I don't think it's completely 'free' as in 'free beer'.Also, Microsoft's Linux efforts are a bit of a paradox. E.g. GNU advocates freedom in using their software, but on the other hand we have a big proprietary company basically known for being the anti free software, now working on supporting free software in their products.Has Microsoft changed then? I am not sure. Consider the level of freedom from Microsoft in the last 12 months:They were very aggressive in nagging their users to upgrade to Windows 10.They nag you with installing updates with ridiculous levels of control.They nag you with installing "adware" applications like CandyCrush.They send telemetry back to their servers, and seem to reset privacy settings on random updates.With that being said; I would say "no thanks" to MS for playing nice to the free software or "GNU/Linux" community. I think the level of paranoia is somewhat justified. I personally also think that the choice between proprietary and free should be made on principles, rather than purely on cost.Besides that, I can see that this feature is convenient for Windows users that need to develop for Linux systems. But honestly; I think spinning up a VM in Virtualbox is almost just as convenient because you get the whole package and can be pretty confident it is not the Linux abstraction layer that could be causing strange behavior.I would also be quite scared if this tool is really used in production applications.

author: setq
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2016, 01:15:21 pm
content: Couldn't agree more.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2016, 01:36:58 pm
content: So, we have a 'free' OS in Linux and a competitor like Win 10 that actually costs money (now) and Linux still accounts for around 1% of the desktop market (not including offshoots like Android). Basically, they can't give Linux away!https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usage_share_of_operating_systemsWhy not? Because absolutely nothing works out-of-the-box. Want to add a printer - search Google for the instructions and get ready to play in a sandbox you have never heard of. And don't forget that CUPS admin port number on localhost! Aside: do the creators of Linux really believe this web interface is workable for ESU's (Extremely Stupid Users)?Win 10, OTOH, searched my local network and just went ahead and installed drivers for every device it found. No input from me!Hopefully you never need to use a serial port, that's another administrative nightmare. Apt-get install will be your new best friend (right after Google). And then we have the arrogance of the Ubuntu Unity desktop in moving the buttons to the wrong side. Sure, it can be changed - after another trip to Google and editing a magic file. The vast majority of users lack the sophistication to deal with Linux, they just want everything to work. Without spending half their compute cycles at Google!Adding Unix command line tools is something that Microsoft was talking about back when NT 3.5 came out. Something about POSIX compatibility. I don't much care about POSIX but having the command line tools is excellent. Now, in theory, my ARM cross-platform development projectss can move between Linux and Windows. Even with PowerShell, using the command line under Windows was always grim. Finally, that's changed!I have 6 active computers in my workspace - 2 Linux only, 1 Linux/Win 10 dual boot and 3 Windows only. Clearly, I am not anti-Linux and, until this announcement, I preferred to do software development under Linux. It's about the tools, not the OS!I'm quite happy with the installation (so far...). Grep, sed, awk, make... what's not to like!

author: setq
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2016, 01:45:47 pm
content: Clearly you've never used named pipes on windows!Unixes are made of tools that you have to glue together. This is good for us power users. I wouldn't put one on a desktop for a user. I would throw them a ChromeOS or Android system.I wouldn't throw them a windows one because I dont want to look after it even if paid to. Value is delivered solving business problems, not poor quality engineering.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2016, 04:00:48 pm
content: Quote from: rstofer on August 23, 2016, 01:36:58 pmI complete gave up on Windows because nothing works out of the box and needs a crappy installer with extra software which is just crap. So I switched to Linux as a primary OS where everything works and more importantly keeps working. But yeah, it does take some effort to re-learn stuff that has been hidden in a different way for almost 20 years. Maybe Windows 10 is better (at least it has the USB serial port drivers 10 years after Linux) but since you can't turn off ALL font smoothing in Windows 10 it is a no-go for me anyway (I can't focus on smoothed text).

author: Karel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2016, 07:18:30 pm
content: Microsoft is already screwing it with powershell:http://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/08/23/your_wget_is_broken_and_should_die_powershellers_tell_microsoft/

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2016, 09:27:12 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on August 23, 2016, 04:00:48 pmWow! We certainly have polar opposite experiences. USB drivers or graphic drivers are usually a couple of generations back for Linux. The primary reason is that hardware manufacturers, when they introduce a new product, write drivers for Windows. They don't write drivers for the 1% platform of Linux. Furthermore, they won't disclose how the hardware works so nobody in the Open Source community can write drivers either. And if they reverse engineer the product, they are violating some part of the EULA or Terms and Conditions.Nvidia is famous for not supporting Linux. Sometimes they will produce some kind of driver that can sort of be compiled under Linux, or at least linked in various places, but they will never release source code or hardware details. When I was using RedHat with Nvidia, every OS upgrade meant building the drivers over again. And this happened very often - a couple of times per month, it seemed.Broadcom is another company that goes out of their way to not support Linux.Then too, Linux won't acknowledge the existence of proprietary software or drivers even if the manufacturers did write it. If it isn't Open Source, it won't be listed in one of the stock repositories. So, the user has to figure out where the software resides and add a line to the repository file. Under Windows, we just click. Good, bad or indifferent, software can be downloaded and installed without a major research project.Then there is dependencies. You want to install a package but it depends on another dozen packages and you might be faced with having to root around the Internet to find them. Not all packages install complete. This is particularly true for development toolchains.And I don't have to mess around with configuration files to get certain hardware specific drivers to load during boot (or PNP for that matter).In it's wildest imagination, Linux isn't 10% of Windows (on the desktop) and the number of users (or lack of users) kind of tells the story. It's there, it's free - and nobody wants it! They would rather pay money for Windows and compatibility.I use Linux quite a bit. There are things I like about and things I hate. What I do like is my Microsoft Surface Book with Win 10 and a docking station so I can use a 27" display (or two). The machine is quick, has a boatload of memory and disk capacity is adequate. Everything just works.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2016, 09:55:35 pm
content: Of all of my customers only one doesn't use Linux. A while ago someone did a poll on this forum and it turned out only 30% is Windows only so I guess Linux is big in engineering. According to the article someone linked to Microsoft is trying to get a piece of the engineering cake because they are loosing big time there and IMHO for a good reason.I have been using Linux for over 20 years. First mostly for server purposes but about 9 years ago I needed to use Linux' desktop for development more and more and it turned a lot of stuff did work out of the box. More recently: after a 3 year period of using Linux 'remotely' from a X-server on Windows and testing how well Windows works in a VM I deemed the time right to banish Windows to several task specific VMs and have a Linux desktop. I did choose my computer carefully and choose one with an NVidia card because contrary to your findings they do seem to have the best support for Debian Linux but their (closed source) drivers may not be installed by default. I used to be a big fan of Matrox graphics cards but unfortunately their last Linux driver is from 2009 and needs an old version for X-Windows which is a pain to downgrade.On Windows XP my scanner (HP), Camera (Cannon) and printer (HP laserjet for office use) where a major PITA to get and keep going. After one certain XP upgrade it took me 2 days of frustration to get the printer working again. My camera wasn't recognised after a while so if I wanted to get the photos/movies from it I had to take the SD card out. The scanner had similar problems; the scanner controls would just crash when I tried to adjust the settings. It just worked enough to scan something into Word. Linux is a night&day difference. Everything just works everytime; plug it in and go. The only thing I still need to get working is programming the flash on NXP microcontrollers from Linux but that is easy enough to do from a VM running Flashmagic on Windows XP so there is no real pressure there.You may find Linux needs a lot of Googling to figure out how things need to be installed/configured but in my experience Windows is just as bad but then for Googling on how to fix a problem for the umteenth time.

author: bitseeker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2016, 11:19:20 pm
content: I regularly use Linux, OS X, and Windows. They do some things well and suck at other things. They all drive me crazy at some point, but in different ways. In the end, they're just tools and you just pick the right tool for the right job. At least with virtual machines, there's no longer a need to reboot to switch between them.

author: amspire
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2016, 11:32:58 pm
content: I did try the Linux in Windows 10 in my virtualbox Windows 10 and it seemed pretty dodgy at the moment. Crashed the VM several times and programs didn't run as well as they do under native linux. It did remind me of running wine under linux. Not everything works right now.Interesting option but i think it has a long way to go. I think cygwin, migngw and gow are more robust for now. I have been using tools like rsync, ssh and scp extracted from cygwin and they have been really robust.

author: bitseeker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2016, 11:55:36 pm
content: On VirtualBox, I use seamless mode so that applications on the guest OS coexist with the desktop of the host OS. It's almost seamless and enables me to work on files shared between operating systems without the compatibility issues of layers such as Wine or WSL.Plus, it's fun when someone sees your screen and can't quite figure out what OS you're running.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2016, 12:22:48 am
content: Quote from: amspire on August 23, 2016, 11:32:58 pmIMHO that is a Windows 10 problem. As far as I can see MS did change some things under the hood and that isn't 100% right yet. As usual better wait for the first service pack.

author: orin
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2016, 03:30:34 am
content: Quote from: bitseeker on August 23, 2016, 11:19:20 pmWell said.At work, I have one computer running Windows and one Mac Mini. A third computer usually runs Centos Linux with Windows 10 in a VM. Sometimes it runs Windows 7 natively - depends whether I want to use the NI GPIB analyzer which has no Linux support. At home, a Mac Mini and a laptop running Windows 7.The software I write at work runs on Windows, OSX, iOS and Android. Read that again. I write software that works on Windows, OSX, iOS and Android. There's no one best OS; they all drive me crazy at some point as well.I started with Unix in the early '80s. Went to Windows in the mid to late 80s. I'd rather program to the Win32 API than the Unix API and realize: I grew up with the Unix API. For example, you want an unnamed semaphore? In Win32, CreateSemaphore(). What to use on Linux and OSX/iOS? Oh, the calls are there in the header files for OSX/iOS, but they just aren't implemented. You have to fake them with a counter and condition variables.I'm not saying Windows 8/10 aren't disgusting. They are. Microsoft, listen: "A desktop is not a tablet is not a phone". Apple get it. OSX and iOS have similarities, but OSX isn't dumbed down to the extent Microsoft have dumbed down Windows 10 to make it look the same on the desktop and on a phone.

author: Karel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2016, 06:38:25 am
content: Quote from: bitseeker on August 23, 2016, 11:19:20 pmBut one drives me more crazy than others...

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2016, 07:28:36 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on August 24, 2016, 03:55:11 amI got my GTX 970 about a month after it was released and it just worked on Gentoo since day one. Granted, some management/debug tools like nvidia-smi didn't work properly until a driver update later, but it more or less performed as it should for actual usage.Obscure/specialized USB hardware is another thing. But those generally work in a VM, very helpful for reverse engineering. And some stuff like webcams more or less tend to just work with Linux since they have to support embedded devices like smart TVs that run some sort of Linux. The trend of many users switching to mobile platforms helps a lot when Android is Linux.Now I wonder if it would be possible to use KDE on Windows and get a good desktop environment (e.g. the all so useful always on top button) while still being able to use Windows for the only reason why anyone wants to use Windows - running Windows apps. There was some talk about that idea from years back but it didn't go very far because many KDE developers don't use Windows...

author: bitseeker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2016, 08:16:38 am
content: Quote from: Karel on August 24, 2016, 06:38:25 amYep.Saying anything more than that makes some folks restless.

author: setq
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2016, 10:54:34 am
content: This works for me as a platform selection choice:If you're being paid by the hour, use Windows.If you're being paid to complete the job or do something for yourself, use Linux.If you're being paid to look pretty, use OSX

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2016, 12:44:51 pm
content: Quote from: orin on August 24, 2016, 03:30:34 amI just use a cross-platform framework so I don't have to deal with platform specific issues like these.

author: setq
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2016, 12:56:48 pm
content: Exactly that.Then again, Windows... It's hard to work out if you should use CreateSemaphore or CreateSemaphoreEx! Oh so it turns out Ex only works on Vista and above which is from 2007 so suddenly my app bombs out on XP. Oh have to back out that API. Eventually you end up with a subset of Windows 3.1's win32 subsystem that sort of works, you hope.Or semget(2) which has been around since SVID issue 2 which appeared in 1986... reference:https://archive.org/download/bitsavers_attunixSVIfinitionIssue2Volume21986_13992976/System_V_Interface_Definition_Issue_2_Volume_2_1986.pdfWin32 is the most fucked up thing I've ever dealt with.

author: Karel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2016, 03:09:37 pm
content: Quote from: orin on August 24, 2016, 03:30:34 amTip:http://doc.qt.io/qt-5/qsemaphore.html

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2016, 07:20:21 pm
content: Quote from: blueskull on August 24, 2016, 07:35:31 amIt seems Virtualbox got support for isochronous USB a couple of years ago.

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2016, 07:21:39 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on August 23, 2016, 09:55:35 pmhttps://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/what's-your-main-operating-system/56% windows, 23% linux.Mentioning a 15 year old OS (windows xp) is not really relevant. Even if it still has 10% marketshare.https://www.netmarketshare.com/operating-system-market-share.aspx?qprid=10&qpcustomd=0

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2016, 08:39:07 pm
content: You forget the 11% that switches between the two (and it seems the poll got more votes since I last looked at it).BTW what is the difference between Windows 7 or 10 and XP? They all get slower and slower over time (which is why a new version feels so snappy and quick because it is a fresh install) and all are buggy when released. Actually each version is just worse than the previous one because underneath it is still the same turd with all the old layers of chrome plating still lurking under the skin. There is not much sense in calling Windows XP a 15 year old OS because any Windows version released after Windows 3.1 and Windows NT 3.5 is a mix of both (released >20 years ago) with added layers on top and/or a different skin. After all the API had to stay the same for legacy software support so there is only so much Microsoft has been able to really change.

author: MT
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2016, 09:06:04 pm
content: Quote from: setq on August 24, 2016, 10:54:34 amIf your'e being paid to look obsolete, use Atari!

author: setq
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2016, 09:07:54 pm
content: Hahaha yes.

author: enz
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2016, 09:49:13 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on August 23, 2016, 09:55:35 pmMaybe LPC21ISP can be of use here?Link:https://github.com/capiman/lpc21ispMartin

author: bitseeker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2016, 09:55:59 pm
content: Quote from: MT on August 24, 2016, 09:06:04 pmDepends who's looking.Vintage gaming!

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2016, 02:51:31 pm
content: So I installed the Bash add-on along with gcc and gfortran. It turns out that some of my grandson's homework problems had equations of the form H(t) = 100 + 75 * exp(-t/20) * cos(pi/4 * t). The problem wanted solutions for several values of t. For an old FORTRAN programmer (started back in '70), this is as good as it gets! A statement function, a few invocations and, voila', the answers!Code:program bungeeparameter (pi = 3.14159)parameter (pi4 = pi / 4.0)H(t) = 100. + 75.*exp(-t/20)*cos(pi4*t)print 1, 0,H( 0.)print 1, 1,H( 1.)print 1, 2,H( 2.)print 1, 4,H( 4.)print 1, 6,H( 6.)print 1, 8,H( 8.)print 1,12,H(12.)1 format(i2,2x,F10.6)end program bungee0 175.0000001 150.4465942 100.0000844 38.5951926 99.9997868 150.27400212 58.839130It just doesn't get any better than this!

author: setq
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2016, 02:53:51 pm
content: Anything is better than Fortran. All it does is suck faster than any other language

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2016, 03:50:37 pm
content: Quote from: setq on August 30, 2016, 02:53:51 pmAnd yet it is still used for scientific applications after 60 years of hanging around. There simply is no faster way to get the wrong answer!QuoteQuote

author: bitseeker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2016, 05:46:09 pm
content: Woah, FORTRAN.It's been ages since I've written anything in that.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2016, 06:54:56 pm
content: Quote from: bitseeker on August 30, 2016, 05:46:09 pmAnd it's still fun!I started with FORTRAN IV in 1970 on an IBM 1130. Fast forward 35 years and I built an FPGA version of the 1130 that runs all of the original software including the FORTRAN compiler. I still like programming in FORTRAN IV and my machine runs 125 times faster. The next incantation on an Artix 7 will double the speed (I think...).There is a class of problems for which FORTRAN is the easy way to get results, especially when it only takes a statement function and a couple of parameters. For the sample above, I chose not to use an array with matching DATA statement just for clarity. I have since rewritten the programs to use the DATA statement with an array and a DO loop.I messed around with these sample problems with the intent to show my grandson an alternative to banging away on a calculator and hoping you got all the keystrokes correct. Once a model program is written, similar programs are just cut and paste.

author: bitseeker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2016, 07:26:23 pm
content: Yes, a little code goes a long way, whichever language you choose.