new $39 thermal scanner on kickstarter, the deltaK! - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: exoticelectron
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 27, 2017, 08:06:44 pm
content: Hi Everyone!I am the designer and manufacturer of a new thermal scanning tool for electronics troubleshooting, the deltaK thermal scanner!The deltaK design is based on a tool I made and used for years in my work as an EE. It indicates temperature in real-time using a continuous tone whose pitch varies according to the current temperature being scanned versus the starting point of the scan. This makes it very easy to scan a circuit board for hot parts (or cold parts!). The closer you get to the board and the smaller the motions you make the tighter the precision gets. Its also very sensitive to temperature and can even locate studs in a wall based on the slight temperature difference, in some situations.Its currently on kickstarter and needs about 800 more pledges in 25 days. The price is a special $39 + $3 shipping to USA for the first 100 pledges. International shipping outside the USA is $15. Please help make this product a reality! I really believe in it and think it has many more uses besides just electronics troubleshooting, but it needs to get out there first!The kickstarter page has videos and more descriptions, check it out! I am using a google link shortener so I can see how many people take a look, its my job to promote it and I am learning so please don't think I'm tracking you or what not! I am just one person doing this whole project!Click here to see the deltaK thermal scanner kickstarter campaign!---->goo.gl/Ckk8ef

author: frenky
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 28, 2017, 05:21:00 am
content: I can see that a lot of effort went into designing this and I respect that.But to me one thing is missing for this to be useful... a tiny lcd to display actual temperature.So you quickly scan the pcb or car engine for hotspots with tone pitch and that is great. (If you can't afford cheap smartphone thermal module.)But when you find a hotspot you will usually want to know how hot it is.Information if the component on pcb is at 50*C (122*F) or at 150*C (302*F) makes a lot of difference when troubleshooting.

author: frenky
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 28, 2017, 09:08:24 am
content: And doing updates for "Backers only" is the worst think you can do on Kickstarter.All potential backers will think that you are trying to hide something...

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 28, 2017, 09:17:46 am
content: Quote from: frenky on March 28, 2017, 05:21:00 amOr a speech module to read out the max temperature.

author: Chanc3
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2017, 09:33:39 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on March 28, 2017, 09:17:46 amOnly if it's in your voice!

author: b_force
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2017, 09:35:21 am
content: What is the benefit of using this thing over a regular of the shelf scanner?(which I barely use anyway because they are not very precise/cumbersome to work with)Also wonder how long that exposed sensor unit is gonna last, flapping around in the breeze without any protection.edit:I find the 'delta K' a little awkward. The standard scientific symbol for temperature is T.K is only a type of unit you can use for it.It also suggests that this scanner is noly useful for measuring giving me temperature differences, not the absolute temperature.(which in essence is also true, but that's not the point)edit 2:On the kickstarter website it says the units are in degrees.Degrees what? Degrees cows? Degrees wood? Or does it measure mechanical degrees?

author: ebclr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2017, 09:41:08 am
content: Why not thishttps://pt.aliexpress.com/item/GM320-Digital-Infrared-Thermometer-Professional-Non-contact-Temperature-Tester-IR-Temperature-Laser-Gun-Device-Range-55/32697751644.html?spm=2114.02010208.3.1.sqols2&ws_ab_test=searchweb0_0,searchweb201602_2_10065_10068_10136_10137_10060_10138_10062_10141_10056_10055_10054_301_10059_124_10099_10103_10102_10096_10144_10052_10053_10142_10107_10050_10143_10051_10526_10529_10084_10083_10080_10082_10081_10110_10111_10112_10113_10114_10037_10517_10078_10079_10077_10073_10070_10122_10123_10124,searchweb201603_1,afswitch_1,ppcSwitch_5,single_sort_0_total_tranpro_desc&btsid=46479967-e97a-40b4-ae28-5d812ccbadf6&algo_expid=13a27828-0e92-49cc-8150-ca9ae260cbfb-0&algo_pvid=13a27828-0e92-49cc-8150-ca9ae260cbfbDo more for less

author: exoticelectron
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2017, 01:53:56 pm
content: Thanks for the feedback guys, to answer a bunch of questions at once:-Point and shoot IR guns don't scan. So if you have a surface and want to find gradients or hot spots its a very slow cumbersome process of point and shoot.-A display or voice readout to indicate the temperature when stopped at a point could be useful, but would be alot more expensive at low quantities. Maybe someday. However, in troubleshooting, I never found this necessary. Scanning a surface and hearing the gradients is alot like using a thermal camera, only in a linear fashion. Its really easy to find the anomalies.-There aren't really any units. The device measures relative temperature and indicates it with sound. So F or C really only matter if you need to know exactly what the degrees per Hz or dynamic range is, which isn't really important given how the device is used.

author: exoticelectron
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2017, 02:08:04 pm
content: On kickstarter you can cancel your pleQuote from: frenky on March 28, 2017, 09:08:24 amOn kickstarter you can cancel your pledge whenever you want. So if you back something then read the updates and want out you don't lose any money. I keep some of the updates backers only because I specifically want to have discussions with people who have already indicated they want one and are interested in it.

author: all_repair
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2017, 02:34:48 pm
content: How about indication through brightness, colour or blinking speed to someone that is tone-dead like me. I got a low ohm differentiator to catch shorted area also through audio pitch, it is impossible to use for people like me.

author: exoticelectron
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2017, 02:44:34 pm
content: Quote from: all_repair on March 28, 2017, 02:34:48 pmA previous version of the design had two LED's one red, one green, which would indicate if the current temperature was higher or lower than the starting point of the scan. But this wasn't that useful so I took it out.The sound the deltaK makes during use is alot like a metal detector. A sort of warble that makes a clear low-high-low as you pass over a hot spot. So duplicating that visually (and inexpensively) could probably be done with an LED bargraph that auto-ranges with a time constant to allow for minor drifting of the surface temperature during a scan. This way a hot spot would cause a visual spike that would be easy to see.But in this keychain size form factor there isn't enough battery to run multiple LED's continuously. So I'd have to figure something else out. Maybe on the next version!

author: exoticelectron
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2017, 04:30:43 pm
content: Hey! Kickstarter says someone from eevblog made a pledge! I dont know who it was but thank you very much!!

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2017, 11:23:42 pm
content: QuoteI echo the previous poster - sounds is useless to me (I am deaf). For $39 I would give this a punt if it had some visual indication, but otherwise I would be buying a pile of junk. I am sure hearing people would benefit too (quiet office, warbling toner.... I can see the fisticuffs already!).But... better than red/green LED, why not point an RGB LED forward, at whatever it is you're scanning. Then you can see, on the actual scanned thing, the relative difference as you pan across it. And it's an almost no-cost option compared to normal twin LED indication. Warbles are so 60s, you know.If you promised that the device as shipped would have something like that, I will put in my $39 tonight.Edit: to clarify, have the default temperatue, whatever it is, showing green, then shift to yellow then red as it gets warm. Similarly, shift towards blue as it gets cold. Easy peasy (to programandread).

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2017, 11:46:54 pm
content: Many years ago when the early thermopile sensors came out I prototypes something similar to this. At the time I'd not heard of chopper opamps so it was a bit too unstable to be useful so never got round to doing any more with it. Since then, when cheap IR thermometers became common I couldn't work out why nobody was putting audio indication in them as it seemed such an obviously useful addition.I think a major fail on your video is it doesn't show any actual usage.Considering how cheap thermal imagers are nowadays, I think you may be a few years too late with this one.

author: exoticelectron
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2017, 12:37:31 am
content: Thanks for the feedback guys. The deltaK form factor and certain very specific details about how it functions makes it a great tool for troubleshooting circuit boards, which is what I have used it for for years. Point and shoot IR thermometers with a scan function aren't really good at that particular task, because the output changes too slowly and in a way that makes it very difficult to precisely scan a large surface quickly and zero in on an anomaly. Also the form factor of those tools isnt really appropriate for scanning circuit boards on the fly in a production environment or ad-hoc out of the pocket, they are too bulky and clumsy.Thermal adapters for smartphones are great, and probably do a better job than the deltaK in many instances. But the price tag of $150+ and a smartphone capable enough to use with it is too high a price tag for quite a few people, not everyone lives in a first world country with a high powered smartphone in their hand as a given. Its too high a price tag for plenty of tinkerers, technicians, and engineers in the USA, as well. Also, its a delicate tool and not something you necessarily want to risk in certain dirty or dangerous environments, where the deltaK would have no problem.In my experience the exposed sensor is a benefit and not a liability. Being able to get as close as possible to the surface you are scanning improves precision. I have not had a sensor break on me and I've been quite a bit less than careful with the prototype version I've been using for years. If you want to compare, consider how fragile your $600 smartphone LCD and $150 FLIR adapter are. The sensor itself is only about $6 and anyone wanting to replace it could very easily if need be.The video at the bottom of the campaign shows an earlier prototype in use. The functionality is the same and the production version in the smaller case will use the same circuitry with very minor changes.Heres the video:https://youtu.be/hCPXpIp4Vq8

author: mwalker
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2017, 08:39:05 am
content: The demo video above sold me, as @mikeselectricstuff said, it would be great if you had some actual usage in the main video.I really like @dunkemhigh's suggestion with the coloured LED pointing at the subject too.

author: exoticelectron
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2017, 04:31:19 pm
content: Quote from: mwalker on March 29, 2017, 08:39:05 amThanks. Ive definitely toyed with the LED idea before. Its not trivial to do though in the keychain sized adapter. Button cells do not like having alot of current drawn from them and its a tight current budget as is. I dont think I can pull that off for this iteration. Theres just not enough time/budget to get back into the design at that level. And I wouldnt want to create an LED output that didnt work very well and provide the same sort of spike detection that the audible output does so easily.I agree about the video..its alot easier for me (at the moment anyway) to make a professional/clean looking animation, than it is to make a live-action video demonstrating the device with the same quality. But I think I can pull it off. I'll see what I can do. Sometimes content is more important than clean/professional looking.

author: Cloud
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2017, 09:43:30 pm
content: Quote from: exoticelectron on March 28, 2017, 01:53:56 pmI don't know where did you get that info but my GM900 (and I assume other from series) has scan function. If you hold trigger button you are in the scan mode instead of hold.I am sorry, but compared to what you get for 20eur from China and what for 40$ from you.... I would maybe buy it if it would be max 10$

author: exoticelectron
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 30, 2017, 10:04:07 pm
content: Quote from: Cloud on March 30, 2017, 09:43:30 pmWhy would you buy it at all if your GM900 does the same job?Check the specs for your point and shoot. Its "scan" mode is really nothing more than repeated, averaged measurements, with something like a 500 msec time constant. Useless for precision scanning something like a circuit board for local anomalies.The deltaK has a response time at the limit of the sensor, on the order of 30mS, more than 10 times faster. This makes quickly scanning a surface much faster and more precise.Even if the point and shoot had as fast as a response rate, reading a rapidly changing numeric display while you are moving the device over a surface is extremely awkward and imprecise.Also, the point and shoot guns put the sensor too far away from the surface. You'll never get the spatial precision to distinguish between components. And the enclosures of most point and shoots are too bulky to be used inside housings or tight areas in operating devices.As far as displays go, as nice as it would be to have a display showing absolute temperature, its not really what the deltaK is for. Its meant to scan for anomalies. Absolute temperature and numeric readouts would be useful but are too expensive to incorporate at small quantities and keep the price down.

author: timb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 31, 2017, 02:25:21 am
content: I'm in for one. I think it's a neat idea.

author: exoticelectron
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 13, 2017, 07:29:25 pm
content: Okay guys, I'm not happy with the price of this tool. I think a professional could justify paying $39 for it, but I would really like the price to be even lower. I'm planning on doing a relaunch of the kickstarter at a lower price, and so its time to do some work.The circuit that the current design uses is a very old one that I came up with many years ago. Its a good circuit, sort of a mixed signal affair with discrete logic, an R2R (discrete!) DAC, and some opamps, which does the job, but its relatively expensive and uses alot of PCB real estate. Its by no means a kludge and I carefully engineered it long ago, but to really push the price of this device down I am going to have to go back to the drawing board. I'm proud of my old circuit but its not helping get this tool into the hands of trillions (yes trillions) of people so off with its head!!!!In the past I tried a digital thermopile, Melexis makes one. I did not like how it performed. I didnt take good notes..but the prototype I made using it did not perform as well as the original design. I think it was a combination of the granularity of the temperature sensors digital output creating a stairstep in the audio tone which made it useless at detecting small temperature changes.So my new attempt will be the next logical combo. An analog thermopile to an ADC on a microcontroller. This opens up all kinds of interesting possibilities, since you can do lots of stuff when that data is in a processor.To kludge a proof of concept together I first used a microcontroller from a totally unrelated project with a very high quality thermocouple A/D connected to a PIC MCU. I connected the analog thermopile in place of the thermocouple and did some coding. It worked great! But that just proved it was possible with great (and expensive) hardware. So to get things real I kludged up another proof of concept. This time I connected the thermopile directly to the humble 10-bit A/D of a 16F616 PIC. Well, not directly, in between I put a precision AD8604 opamp with a gain of 470 and some RC filters. Some coding later and voila! It works very well, just as good as my ancient mixed signal design. And it should be much cheaper!At very drastic and fast increases in temperature, like dropping a soldering iron in front of the sensor quickly, you can hear a stairstep, but that shouldnt matter in usage because scanning something that hot so quickly would not be a situation you would need to hear very subtle increases in temperature.At very low changes in temperature, like a thumbprint on cardboard (see video), you can still hear the anomaly easily and smoothly.Also, since the data is now in an MCU, that has multiple A/D channels, it opens up the possibility of making the much-requested absolute temperature measurements. But thats on the shelf for now. I'm going to properly redraw the schematic and get PCB layout going to see where we stand as far as real production costs.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 13, 2017, 11:13:21 pm
content: Quote from: exoticelectron on April 13, 2017, 07:29:25 pmI really can't see a price drop attracting significantly more users, and it increases your risk of losing money.If I were you I'd forget all about KS, set your sights lower and build a small quantity and get them to users to see how useful it really is, and build from there.TBH a thermal camera offers so much more functionality that anyone who has a serious need for it is likely to just buy one.I'm not convinced there is much of a market between cheap IR thermometers and the cheapest thermal imager.

author: exoticelectron
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 13, 2017, 11:25:19 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on April 13, 2017, 11:13:21 pmThe last thing I'm going to do is forget about kickstarter. Right now there are about 60 people on there pledged at $43 each. If I can drop the manufacturing cost I can get them a working device without meeting the very high KS goal and they would be thrilled, and I'd still be able to pay for my time and production costs. Many of them have pledged for uses totally unrelated to electronics troubleshooting and a poll I made shows that a majority of them think they could get at least 1 other person to buy one at $43 if they had a working example to show them.Again, not everyone in the world has a $600 smartphone they can attach a $150 thermal camera adapter to. Alot of people could use something that scans thermally but is very inexpensive. Right now there isnt an alternative I am aware of anywhere near this price, and thats before I lower it.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 14, 2017, 06:07:59 am
content: I would also suggest not reducing the price. Sometimes things can be too cheap - people expect something good to cost money, and conversely something very cheap must be, well, cheap.Your product is sufficiently novel to most people that they would think it quite a costly thing. $39 is a steal, and to be honest I was somewhat suspicious when I first saw the headline price and only bothered reading to see who spots the scam first

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 14, 2017, 08:41:38 am
content: Quote from: exoticelectron on April 13, 2017, 11:25:19 pmYou don't need a $600 phone, a $100 one is just fineAnd you can buy standalone imagers for about $200A lot of people could use something that scans thermally but is very inexpensive. Right now there isnt an alternative I am aware of anywhere near this price, and thats before I lower it.If there is a market in that price range, lowering it won't make much difference to sales - $39 is well within 'novelty purchase' territory. All that reducing the price will do is make it harder for you to make a viable product, and make people question how useful it is due to lower perceived value.TBH even at $39 I think you'll struggle to make any money once all your 1-off costs are covered.

author: exoticelectron
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 14, 2017, 03:23:25 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on April 14, 2017, 08:41:38 amThe design changes I have planned to reduce the cost will cut the number of parts on the board by 3/4, as well as the size of the PCB, and cut the BOM cost in half. So it will actually make manufacturing alot cheaper and easier, while actually enhancing functionality because the data will be in a microcontroller and I am sure I will figure out some interesting goodies to add in software.I'm going to give my kickstarter backers what they want, pay some bills with the money, and see if I can get it to the next level. A thermal scanning solution that is a fraction of the cost of even the least expensive alternative out there, and can replace its functionality for some uses, seems like a good idea to me, and about 60 other people on kickstarter.New products always involve risk or someone else would have done it already. Theres always a million reasons why something wouldn't or shouldn't be done. Talk sure is cheap though, isn't it?

author: exoticelectron
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 14, 2017, 03:50:37 pm
content: Heres my new schematic, captured in Altium 2017 "clipboard" edition!Greatly simplified..but not really.It looks like I may be able to get away with an 8 pin microcontroller. I will keep it SOIC so that its as easy as possible to solder, because I will most likely be personally hand soldering the first few dozen.So generally the BOM so far is based on 150qty, as follows:MCU: PIC12F615 (10bit a/d, 16 bit timer, in-circuit programming @ 3V battery power), about $0.65OPAMP: AD8601ARU, is the same opamp I have in the old design. Reasonably precision. Works in the proof-of-concept test. About $0.50Buzzer: Have yet to select. Need a cheap, loud buzzer @ 3V. $0.50 or lessThermopile: Most likely the TS105-6 but the TS118-3 may be betterPushbutton: MJTP1138 series, cheap, small and works wellSlide switch: an OS series I've already picked out that is only about $0.30Some design things:Gain will be controlled by switching the high resistor in the opamp feedback loop. This sounds bad but has worked great in the original design, although in this case, the gain will be almost 5 times higher since the A/D is only 10bit and to get the sensitivity needed thats the only way. But the signals being detected are A) basically DC, and B) have all their offsets nulled out right at the start, so I think thats why having a switch in the feedback path seems to work okay.I would like to drive the buzzer with the PIC directly, to eliminate as many parts as possible. This is probably not going to work because the transients will likely couple through the PIC to the PIC A/D and cause havoc. But I'm going to try it and see.

author: frozenfrogz
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 14, 2017, 03:58:28 pm
content: First of all: I like your idea and think it makes up a useful tool.Regarding the KS campaign it is a question of where you want to go with the product.If it is just about getting your invention out to other enthusiasts, you might want to consider making a DIY kit without the casing as the latter seems to be the most expensive part (injection molded?).You could sell a PCB kit for a reasonable price and still make some money out of it: WIN-WIN for everyoneBut: You will most likely not approach a big market as in "being sold at every hardware store".If your goal is to produce the product in larger quantity, start a web-shop and sell quite a bit of these, you will most likely need more than 35.000$. Injection molding, PCB manufacturing and assembly, quality control, packaging, shipping, after sales etc. will easily blow the budget and there is always the risk of something going wrong e.g. replace or repair units damaged or lost during shipping, or something that slipped your QC.If you plan to approach hardware stores / radio shack / ... most of the bigger shops have a listing fee you need to pay in order for them to stock (not buy!) your product.A bare PCB version / DIY kit – maybe together with some drawings for a printable case would be very interesting for a lot of people out there IMO.Best regards,Frederik

author: exoticelectron
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 14, 2017, 04:17:34 pm
content: Quote from: frozenfrogz on April 14, 2017, 03:58:28 pmI would actually really like to make DIY kit. I am definitely considering it. I don't know if its possible or not though business-wise. Im cutting the costs so drastically that the assembly part is going to be a very small cost so I cant really discount it by leaving it unassembled. But making it an open source design is also possible.I dont think this device has a mass consumer appeal. Thousands of people have watched the kickstarter vid, probably because the picture looks really cool, but only a tiny percentage have pledged, and according to a poll I made, a big majority of them want it for electronics purposes. So I'm going to focus on them. That is after all, why I designed it, and what I use it for. Electronics is such a popular activity these days I know there are enough people out there who could use this tool and would pay the right price for it.As far as the costs for selling many of them, its actually alot cheaper than you might think. I already have all those things in my budget and have been through this before. Heres what I'm working with:PCB mfg: $0.30 from PCB WAYPCB assy: $1.00 from PCB WAYQC: Very basic QC test off the line. This is not an expensive or time consuming task. I can do this.Packaging: $0.30 self adhesive poly bagShipping: $1.65 to the USA via USPS first class mail, $13.50 to anywhere else in the world, paid by the customerAfter sales: there is no after sales besides direct technical contact with me..I don't anticipate this being an issue for an inexpensive tool like this.The housing is the most expensive up-front cost. But I have a few ways of dealing with that.Way 1: I have an industrial injection molding machine that I have made housings with before. I can design and machine the molds myself, and inject the housing myself, using my own equipment. And yes, its not a drill press with an attachment. Its a real injection molding machine and I make the molds properly with runners, draft, etc.. its not a big deal. If I were making 10,000 pieces with a hardened steel mold and needed absolute surface control and precise tolerances, that would be different, but this product does not require that. Also, there are low-volume injection mold services out there that dont require $10's of K molds. There are silicone molds and other methods for low volume stuff in the 100's to 1000's of pieces. This product would work great with those methods.Way 2: People can 3D print their own housing, which I will supply a free STL for, using their own 3D printer or paying an online source to do it. This is in the $10 per piece range most likely. And also something fun to do with a DIY version.Way 3: Like you suggested, a bare board with no housing. The device can be used like that if I design the PCB to be hand held and have battery holders. Also DIY friendly.

author: exoticelectron
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 14, 2017, 04:23:55 pm
content: BTW if anyone thinks they will want a deltaK, please pledge on Kickstarter! You will not actually be charged anything because the kickstarter campaign is almost guaranteed not to meet the funding goal (its at $3100 of $35000 with 7 days to go). But I will be using the kickstarter system to stay in contact with the people who want one and they will get it first!When the new design comes out you can decide if you want it or not , of course, and pay the lower price too.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 14, 2017, 04:40:49 pm
content: QuoteAs previously noted, I would like one but it's not going to be any use to me. I guess my option is to do an add-on freq-to-light display - is there anything on there that would help me along that route (i.e. shortcut the process)?

author: PDXjason
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 14, 2017, 04:42:51 pm
content: I like the Altium clipboard edition schematic--it outputs to a nearly hand drawn style!My coworker has a CATERPILLAR phone with a built-in FLIR--$600 phone looks like you could drop it off a roof and it would dent the sidewalk. I can't believe what they can fit on phones these days.Good luck, exoticelectron. Sounds like you're really trying to make these accessible.

author: exoticelectron
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 14, 2017, 04:59:35 pm
content: Quote from: dunkemhigh on April 14, 2017, 04:40:49 pmThe problem isnt really the technical part...its whether or not the functionality would still be there by using a color changing light or bargraph. I dont think you'd get the same sensitivity. I havent tested it though.Since the design would be in a microcontroller and you have a couple pins left, the sky is the limit. You could come up with whatever circuit you wanted and drive it however you wanted with the temperature data inside the cpu.

author: exoticelectron
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 14, 2017, 05:09:33 pm
content: Quote from: PDXjason on April 14, 2017, 04:42:51 pmThanks! Yes the clipboard version was all I could afford. :/BTW your story reminds me of something. Eventually, thermal adapters for phones or even standalone cameras will get down to something crazy cheap like $30. But I think the deltaK will still be a useful tool even at the same price. First of all, its output is audible and doesn't require you to look at it. And second, it puts your finger directly next to what you are scanning, which is very handy. Because you can physically touch whatever anomaly you find immediately, and that provides you with even more information about whats going on. Not only to confirm the physical location of the anomaly, but also to feel anything else that might explain it. (Vibration, thermal inertia, etc..)You can still scan very hot surfaces like exhaust manifolds or what not, as long as its not radiating so much energy that it will burn you or the deltaK. I think something would have to be glowing cherry red for that to happen. I've scanned dull red surfaces like the walls of wood fired stoves with no issue.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 14, 2017, 06:07:42 pm
content: QuoteThat would be great, thanksAnd... duly pledged. The international shipping is quite painful one a cheap product!

author: exoticelectron
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 14, 2017, 06:14:54 pm
content: Quote from: dunkemhigh on April 14, 2017, 06:07:42 pmWow thank you so much!!!Dont take the kickstarter pricing too seriously. That campaign is not going to fund and nobody will charged. Youre really just signing up for a mailing list.HEY!!! I Just got an idea.The reason international shipping is so high is that once an item meets "package" status from USPS, it gets bump WAY up from the "flat" rate to the package rate. I think its a jump from a couple dollars to more like $14. But, if I sell it as a diy KIT with a flat PCB and thin bag of parts, and no housing, it would almost certainly fit into the flat category and cut the cost way down. Keep your fingers crossed..I cant guarantee it yet but I will definitely see if I can pull that off.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 14, 2017, 06:25:21 pm
content: QuoteExcellent idea, yes, and it would save me taking it apart too

author: exoticelectron
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 14, 2017, 06:28:53 pm
content: I dont know where I got the idea AD8601 was cheap. Going to have to reselect an OpAmp. Im not too worried about it though its been a longgggg time since I picked that one out so I'm guessing I can beat it in specs and cut the price in half too. A more accurate schematic:

author: mtdoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 14, 2017, 06:54:49 pm
content: I just saw this - I'm in and will wait for the updated version.The demo video convinced me.I can see a possible medical diagnostic use for something inexpensive and small like this that easily fits in a pocket. It could be used to better delineate an area of skin infection or help differentiate infected skin from reddened but non infected skin. I'm not sure it how well it would work - but for the price I'm willing to give it a try. Very tricorder likeI don't know what the ramifications are for marketing a device on kickstarter for medical diagnostic (not therapeutic!) purposes is, but if it works, it might be something you want to consider to enlarge your potential backer pool.

author: dimkasta
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 14, 2017, 06:58:10 pm
content: A simple idea to open some visual feedback possibilities would be to duplicate the frequency output to an open pin header. That way people should be able to attach it to their dmm's freq counter, or even their oscilloscope. You should probably buffer the buzzer pin anyway, so getting a second output should be easy, even without going for a pic with more io portsThat way, you can probably even ship it with a bnc and/or banana cable and market it as a thermal probeNow that would be something that can find much wider use

author: exoticelectron
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 14, 2017, 07:04:31 pm
content: Quote from: mtdoc on April 14, 2017, 06:54:49 pmThank you so much!! :DDI'm not sure either, I doubt I could label it as a medical device that cures anything. But as a scanning thermometer I could probably show examples of someone using it for something like that.One thing Im very excited about, that is I think inevitable, is that once the device gets out there people will find uses for it I never thought of. There are people who have pledged on kickstarter because they want to use it for bee hives and they are sure their bee hive colleagues would want one too. (!!)

author: exoticelectron
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 14, 2017, 07:07:33 pm
content: Quote from: dimkasta on April 14, 2017, 06:58:10 pmOOh I like that. Yes reading the frequency with a meter or scope could be fun. I could just add a testpoint for the PIC in which drives the gate of the buzzer fet.It should not be underestimated how sensitive the ear is to audible pitch changes though..I will measure it next time to see what I am actually able to hear at a minimum. It makes detecting anomalies very easy. I am not sure that could be duplicated with a numeric (or frequency) readout, even on a scope. You need a time constant measured in 10's of milliseconds and usually the fastest a display can be read is more like 100's. But its doable!

author: fcb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 14, 2017, 07:50:28 pm
content: Neat idea. Price is fine. As others have said - your video on KS should have included a demo of the unit. I've backed it though.

author: dimkasta
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 14, 2017, 08:03:03 pm
content: I just pledged too.I agree. I was dissapointed and to be honest a bit suspicious towards the project when I did not see a direct presentation of the prototype in the main video.The demo should be your main attraction.You might also want to consider a full assembly and shipping service in china. It should significantly reduce shipping costs too

author: exoticelectron
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 14, 2017, 08:08:54 pm
content: Quote from: fcb on April 14, 2017, 07:50:28 pmThank you!!! :DDYes I am going to change the video for the relaunch. I figure its too little too late for this one.So on opamp selection.I think the MCP6051-E/SN is my new choice. This should be read with your choice of sentimental "son is just like dad" or "things are so crazy in the world" 70's music.Input offset: 150uV MAX (!!)Input bias: 1pA typ 100pA MAX (!!!!!!)Package: 8SOIC (or SOT23 if I want!!!!)Supply current=: 30uA (!!!!! thats 1041 days of continuous operation in OFF mode with AAA batts..meaning I dont have to control its power = less parts!!)Price @ 150qty: $0.55 (OHHHHHHHHHH)Im sure I probably missed something because I'm just skimming over the datasheet. But for now thats the new golden boy.

author: exoticelectron
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 14, 2017, 08:11:09 pm
content: Quote from: dimkasta on April 14, 2017, 08:03:03 pmYa I will definitely do a demo in the relaunch. Its harder to make it look good but maybe that doesn't matter.Assembly is really easy, I'm designing in a very minimal parts count and yours truly will assemble and test each one right here in California USAUSA shipping is very cheap..like $1.60. But international shipping is the problem. A few posts ago I got an idea that might fix that though.AND THANK YOU for the pledge too !!!!!!!!

author: Kilrah
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 14, 2017, 08:15:01 pm
content: Pretty sure a color-changing LED would work fine. No good for absolute measurement, but the whole point of the thing is the relative changes anyway.

author: mtdoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 14, 2017, 08:17:41 pm
content: Quote from: exoticelectron on April 14, 2017, 07:07:33 pmThis is an excellent point.A similar issue came up in the 1980s when I was involved in some of the first neuroscience research using colorized digital quantitative radiography to determine regional neurotransmitter receptor densities. At the time some felt colorizing images was a gimick (later proved to be quite wrong). They were ignoring the fact that the human eye and visual system has evolved to do very fine discrimination of color within it's defined bandwidth. The same could be said of the human auditory system.

author: exoticelectron
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 14, 2017, 08:19:14 pm
content: Quote from: Kilrah on April 14, 2017, 08:15:01 pmI think color changing light would work well for very large changes in temperature but for very small changes I think its easier to hear them than see them in a color change. I havent tested it though. The audible method works so well that I dont really see a reason to add the visual output.Sort of like a metal detector. Nobody uses a light that Im aware of. Some of them have an analog needle though, but I think thats more for discrimination and not for detecting spikes.

author: edavid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 14, 2017, 08:24:25 pm
content: Quote from: exoticelectron on April 14, 2017, 04:17:34 pmYou really have to spring for tracking, or you'll spend all your time dealing with lost/delayed packages. So that makes the minimum US shipping $2.77.QuoteCan't you fit it into a standard Chinese plastic box?http://www.ebay.com/itm/5pcs-Junction-Box-Waterproof-Project-New-Case-Black-Electric-Plastic-55x35x15mm-/142079759201QuoteThe envelope has to fit through a 1/4" slot, which is challenging. Also, you don't get tracking.

author: exoticelectron
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 14, 2017, 08:33:14 pm
content: Quote from: edavid on April 14, 2017, 08:24:25 pmYou do get tracking with USPS first class mail, both domestically and internationally. I have shipped hundreds of items for a previous kickstarter as well as hundreds of items on ebay, both domestically and internationally, via USPS first class mail, and not a single one has been lost and they all were trackable along the entire journey.The PCB is only 1/16" thick and the rest of the parts are very small. It might be doable. I will have to look into it. The test is more involved than just fitting through a 1/4" slot, but even so I think there is a possibility here. This only applies to international shipping btw. USA shipping is $1.60 and there is no issue with size for this product..even a big one with a full housing.An off the shelf housing is a possibility, but I really dont want this tool to have that look. If I inject the parts myself or have them 3D printed I can make the design memorable and attractive. But everything is on the table at this point. If I have to do additional machining or other work to an off the shelf box I'll have to take that into consideration as well.EDIT: Oh yeah I forgot they bumped the price up for even 3oz to $2.65. So yeah I would do that for shipping.

author: dimkasta
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 14, 2017, 08:33:15 pm
content: Since we are doing differential measurements and not absolute ones, having a dual or tri colored led is just a gimmick.All you need is a visual indication that what the devices sees is significantly different from its surroundings.You can do that with a single led that lights with the frequncy when the change is above a threshold. And a small pot can be used to let the user adjust it for more or less sensitivity.That, on top of the normal sound operation of course.I agree the sonic feedback is very nice as it isSent from my HUAWEI NXT-L29 using Tapatalk

author: exoticelectron
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 14, 2017, 08:39:36 pm
content: Quote from: dimkasta on April 14, 2017, 08:33:15 pmIts definitely possible with the microcontroller and an LED. I'll take it into consideration. At the moment I'm focused on making the original functionality as inexpensive as possible so as many people as possible can get it. I have never needed a threshold indicator with it, its hard to explain until you use it, but the feedback you get from it doesn't lend itself to hard thresholds or looking at it while you are using it. Its like a 6th sense...

author: edavid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 14, 2017, 08:49:09 pm
content: Quote from: exoticelectron on April 14, 2017, 08:33:14 pmFirst class mail packages yes, first class mail letters noIf you want international tracking, you have to pay the $12+ for FCMI package rate.

author: exoticelectron
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 14, 2017, 08:50:56 pm
content: Heres the demo video of the earlier prototype in a big housing...still functionally the same as what Im working on for the relaunch though:

author: exoticelectron
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 16, 2017, 05:07:13 pm
content: Round 1 of the PCB layout for Rev 6Key features:Rough dimensions about 1" by 4" (25mm x 100mm)AAA batteries will be held by BK-82 clips (about half the price of plastic holders)Im considering changing most parts to be through hole so experimenting is easierICSP/debug via a small 6 pin connector I've used before, a separate header will convert it to the RJ jack for ICD2, etc..Using a big pushbutton because its more comfortable ( D6R90F1LFS )Found a 3V0-p buzzer thats cheap and should perform well, I'll test it before committing it to the PCB (CSQG703BP)An LED is not needed for functionality (the calibration LED for instance) but I will try to add one anyway for experimentationStill have some rats nest but you can see the way its going...EDIT: The last pic is of the debug header that should allow programming at battery power and also real time debugging with MPLAB/ICD2 etc..

author: exoticelectron
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 22, 2017, 02:00:04 am
content: Only 68 minutes left in the kickstarter campaign! Its at $3973 and it would be great to break $4000. If you are considering a deltaK please pledge! You wont be charged because the kickstarter goal is $35k and nobody gets charged unless that is met. But I will be using the KS system to stay in contact with people interested in the deltaK, and I have a bunch of major changes on the way in a few weeks regarding its design (and price!). Thanks for all the support so far! Many of the backers are from eevblog.com!!http://kickstarter.com/projects/1414732247/deltak-the-keychain-sized-thermal-scanner

author: exoticelectron
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 25, 2017, 12:22:39 am
content: BIG NEWSThe kickstarter campaign broke $4000 by $1! Thanks to a special backer who upped their pledge at the last second. 79 backers total!! Im very excited for the relaunch.I've just finished drawing the Rev 6 circuit board. I submitted the board today to basicpcb.com and should get 3 pieces back around May 6th! BTW it was only $31 shipped for three boards!This new design uses the MCU + Analog thermopile (TS118-3), that worked great in the proof of concept tests I did.The design includes the following features:-Three sensitivity levels, selectable by a slide switch-Big comfy pushbutton for on/off-Yellow LED (calibration indication, but other functions possible!)-2 x AAA batteries for huge battery life-Plenty of speaker volume-About 0.9" wide at the thickest part, by about 4" longHOUSING CHANGEThe keychain sized housing will not be available. That was something I could only do in the previous kickstarter with the very high funding goal, because it needed some extra engineering to reduce the current consumption way down in order to use button cell batteries.But, I think that you guys are okay with using a somewhat bigger design, right? It still works great and having it be as tiny as possible is really not that important for functionality. This current REV6 design is an inch shorter than a typical permanent marker and only about as wide as a quarter. Still very small. And the much longer battery life is a great thing to have.OPEN SOURCE AND HACKABLEIts been requested, and since the majority of people who pledged for the deltaK are into electronics, I think it could be a good way to get even more backers. Basically it would involve the following:-Releasing the PCB layout, schematic, parts list, and firmware.-Making the housing an add-on option. (its not required for functionality)-A ".STL file only" housing could be an option so you could 3D print your own housing too.-Including an ICSP debug/programming connector on the PCB. Rev 6 has this.-Making an unsoldered kit of parts version an option, possibly with a small discount.-Providing technical support to people who want to hack it. (my job!)-Providing a special connector so you can plug the deltaK directly into your MPLAB ICD2 (etc..) debugger/programmer.-Its actually a great platform for learning to work with PIC processors. Its small, battery powered, and has a minimal parts count. Plenty of interesting things you could do, and you'd be working with a real PIC!Of course, I will still offer a fully assembled deltaK with a housing. The open source part would be a completely separate option.Below are pics of the new rev6 PCB layout and schematic.PRICINGI should be able to drop the price a bit, I will know more once I am sure the design is stable. Stay tuned!

author: mtdoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 25, 2017, 04:12:13 am
content: Quote from: exoticelectron on April 25, 2017, 12:22:39 amFrom a medical use standpoint, I don't think it would see much use if it can't fit unobtrusively in a shirt or pants pocket - i.e. bigger than a penlight. But I realize that is not your prime market. Just an FYI.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 25, 2017, 09:20:15 am
content: Quote from: exoticelectron on April 25, 2017, 12:22:39 amWouln't a button give more flexibility - to cycle through different sensitivities/modes, and have a different function for a long press, e.g. zeroing - I imagine drift/background temp correction will be an issue at higher sensitivities.

author: exoticelectron
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 25, 2017, 02:34:42 pm
content: The size with the housing should end up being around "highlighter size"..you know the thick highlighter markers we have here in the US. Still pocket friendly.The slide switch is required because the gain is actually being modified in the opamp. Also I think a slide switch is better for sensitivity selection, you can select your sensitivity instantly and it positively maintains it without further interaction, especially if you need to stop and restart the scan repeatedly. But I may add some additional functionality with the button, since with the microcontroller there are lots of possibilities.Since the device is only used for a few seconds at a time, and makes relative measurements, drift and internal offsets aren't an issue. This is because significant drift doesn't occur in the time span of seconds, and offsets of any kind are nulled out of the system at every power on when the starting point of the scan is measured for about 2 seconds. This includes opamp or ADC offsets, and of course the starting thermopile voltage which represents the starting temperature of the scan which will be used as zero.The original design actually biased the thermopile using a special circuit, to remove all offsets from the system at startup. This new design uses the microcontroller to simply subtract it.

author: exoticelectron
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2017, 02:27:27 am
content: Quote from: cleaningOut on April 26, 2017, 02:18:19 amYa I like this idea. Since the microcontroller is now in charge of everything, all kinds of fun possibilities open up, and they are all hackable sorts of projects.Extreme bonus points if you figure out a way for the your phone to "see" where the sensor tip is in a live camera feed, and then turn the tone into a color on screen. Now you can line scan a surface and create an image! Would need a tripod of course unless you want to go absolutely crazy and try to do an augumented reality sort of thing. But I think that would be overkill and style points only

author: mtdoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2017, 02:28:53 am
content: Quote from: exoticelectron on April 25, 2017, 02:34:42 pmStill too large to carry unobtrusively I'm afraid.

author: exoticelectron
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2017, 02:40:16 am
content: Quote from: cleaningOut on April 26, 2017, 02:30:31 amI already have a website and an online store for my other products, which takes credit cards. Kickstarter is fantastic for exposure, and the sky is the limit if you make a crowd pleaser. I wouldn't have anywhere near 79 backers right now without it. I've already had a successful kickstarter for another product and have worked all the kickstarter fees into the budget for deltaK. Even at just 79 backers there is enough profit to pay for development and make it a success in my eyes.BTW if you are paying $10 / month for domain and hosting plus $9 /month for an online store you can do alot better. Check out namecheap.com and square.com. I pay about $40 / year for domain + hosting, and square charges about 3% per transaction with no monthly fee.That said I might not relaunch on kickstarter. In fact there might not be a "relaunch"at all. Instead I might just put the item in the online store and let all the existing backers buy it. On the other hand, with the new "hackable" and open source design, it might be a good idea to relaunch on kickstarter and see if I can add any more backers.

author: frozenfrogz
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2017, 08:16:40 am
content: Personally i have very mixed feelings in regard to Kickstarter and the bunch of other platforms out there.We did a successful raise of 110.000€ for a product on Indiegogo. This helped to bring an idea into life and built the foundation of a now healthy little company.At least for electronic products in a niche market, you need to do a lot of "pre-heating" before the campaign starts, get prototypes into the right hands (bloggers, magazines,...) and during the campaign you need to push your product to every place and portal you can think of - it is a lot of work.If on the other hand, you "just" setup a campaign page this will most likely not give you the exposure you need. I would bet, going along with what you already started here, talking to us about where the project is going and later on presenting the final solution you came up with, would result in a lot more than 80 orders.You could also go for a solid pre-order approach here.I think, that this scanner of yours is a viable, helpful tool. I also like the look of your initial black housing with the white lettering. I can see myself purchasing a bunch of these for myself and to give it to good friends that are also active in the world of wild pixies and the circuit circus*.However, I am a little biased against the give/take ratio Kickstarter offers.Kind regards,Frederik*sorry for the AvEism here

author: exoticelectron
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2017, 03:47:48 pm
content: Quote from: frozenfrogz on April 26, 2017, 08:16:40 amThanks Frederik this is very interesting!The tiny keychain sized black and white housing was my attempt to give the deltaK a gadget look which would have some mass appeal and broader market. But I dont think that worked as well as I liked, according to a poll I did, the overwhelming number of backers will be using it for electronics troubleshooting or engineering purposes. This is great! But now I am going to focus on the electronics folks, so I am opening up the design to be open source and hackable, with less focus on tiny size. Its still very small just not really really tiny. I'll try to keep the housing cool looking though!Congrats on a huge success with KS, I'm surprised you still have mixed feelings! By give/take ratio you mean the amount of work you had to do to pre-market the product, or literally the % KS takes?

author: frozenfrogz
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2017, 06:58:09 pm
content: Quote from: exoticelectron on April 26, 2017, 03:47:48 pmI am totally fine with the work that needed to go into the campaign by everybody involved. That is obligatory and adds to the fun, as soon as you can take a breath again. xD Just in a retrospective I think that Indiegogo is really greedy (and at that time Indiegogo was a lot cheaper than Kickstarter!). I do not know about the current conditions, but the amount of money that goes to the platform is excessive in regard to the service you are getting. After all we are just talking about a fiduciary combined with a blog site / basic shop system.On the other hand I see the huge potential in crowd-funding and through this kind of platforms, a lot of very cool projects were brought to life.So that is why I wrote "mixed feelings".

author: Kilrah
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 26, 2017, 07:18:10 pm
content: Those who created these platforms certainly must be having a good life. Probably doesn't get any better in terms of income per amount of work ratio.

author: exoticelectron
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 04, 2017, 09:08:42 pm
content: Circuit boards came in from BasicPCB today!!! Woohoo! It was only $30 for 3 and they came in ahead of schedule. Cant wait to try out the new design. Unfortunately digikey parts wont be here for another couple days so until then I can just look at the boards lolhttp://www.basicpcb.com

author: CJay
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2017, 10:08:08 am
content: Nice gadget and I reckon it could be very useful indeed but I *guarantee* I will still burn my fingers touching whatever component it identifies as overheating

author: exoticelectron
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2017, 11:23:39 pm
content: Quote from: cleaningOut on May 06, 2017, 04:14:24 amThe hong kong post shipping thats included with dirtypcb's takes forever. Its worth it to spend $15 extra to get a USA supplier and delivery from order placement in a much shorter and more predictable timeframe. But I might use dirtypcb's for other stuff thats on the back burner so to speak

author: exoticelectron
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2017, 11:35:59 pm
content: Parts got here a couple days ago but I wasn't able to spend time on this project until right now! So I am going to solder it up and see what blows up

author: exoticelectron
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 11, 2017, 03:15:30 am
content: First tests of Rev 6!There are some minor changes I would like to make but overall the major functions, are working as expected!The video shows both the super-high sensitivity mode detecting a thumb print on cardboard, then switching to the high temperature range to scan a soldering iron!The code is written in C and is very simple, using a state machine with three states and interrupt driven tone generation and delay timing.Memory space is as follows:Memory Summary:Program space used 1F9h ( 505) of 400h words ( 49.3%)Data space used 26h ( 38) of 40h bytes ( 59.4%)No floating point is used which saved a TON of memory space.So now everything is under microcontroller control..the temperature data, tone, and LED can all be manipulated at will for who knows what features and goodies! Custom code can be uploaded using an ICD2 and MPLAB, or equivalent..I brought out the ICSP interface to the on-board 6 pin header, along with a small RJ45 adapter that will be included as an option.Now I just need to make an .STL housing and it should be ready for relaunch soon.https://youtu.be/L5sp5n7XT2E

author: frozenfrogz
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 11, 2017, 07:31:11 am
content: Nice to see the progressI wrote you a pm regarding the encasement design - don’t know if you’ve seen it.Also I was thinking: To get back on the request for a version for the hearing impaired. Maybe an adapted version with a small vibration motor could be easily done. Miniature vibrtion motors are available in a lot of different variations and there are some that can run of 0.3V to 3V and a couple of mA. Battery life will most likely be less than with the speaker however.

author: exoticelectron
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 11, 2017, 03:30:16 pm
content: Quote from: frozenfrogz on May 11, 2017, 07:31:11 amI design all the housings for my projects myself but thank you for the offer. The vibrating modification would be a great project since its open source.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 11, 2017, 05:36:28 pm
content: QuoteThat's an interesting idea. I wonder if lag might be a problem, and the range wouldn't be too great, but well worth a trial. Nice thinking - once I get mine I'll have a go

author: Kilrah
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 11, 2017, 06:19:01 pm
content: I'm still trying to understand how this can give any useful information... Yes it will allow you to recognise temperature differences, but not quantify them. Say you go over a board, there are always temperature differences as every component will run at a different temperature even in normal operation. Everytime you can hear the temperature of something is higher you'll have no idea by how much and whether it's normal or not without using another tool...

author: garnix
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 11, 2017, 06:32:03 pm
content: Is this sensor capable of measuring absolute temperatures? If so (and I assume after some calibration) you could add 3 x 7segment LCD/LED to it to display the absolute temperature?

author: exoticelectron
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 11, 2017, 06:34:53 pm
content: Quote from: Kilrah on May 11, 2017, 06:19:01 pmRelative temperature data = thermal camera image without a legend, and just colors. A heat map, literally. There is plenty you can derive from that even before you add in what else you know, such as the nature of the circuit and the thermal signature of a properly operating board of the same type.Generally malfunctioning parts get much hotter or much cooler than their surrounding parts, or than they are when operating normally. All this can be detected without absolute temperature data.

author: exoticelectron
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 11, 2017, 06:37:47 pm
content: Quote from: garnix on May 11, 2017, 06:32:03 pmIt is. Its something I might add in the future, but the open source design is inviting someone else to do it as well. Absolute temperature is not really important for what the deltaK is useful for, but adding it might somehow open up new uses. Still I have to not let feature creep set in and keep on adding things or it will never be finished. My goal here is to release a tool I have been using for years and found very useful for certain electronics tasks.

author: exoticelectron
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 11, 2017, 06:56:46 pm
content: FUNCTIONAL REQUESTS!!So for the relaunch video I want to pack in as many uses as possible, demonstrating each, if I can.Any ideas?I can do a better circuit board scan than the original video, maybe short the output of some SMT SOIC's or put in some wrong resistors or what not.Maybe some stud-finding to show off sensitivityScanning things in a running car engine?

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 11, 2017, 07:06:30 pm
content: Can it detect joists under floorboards or in the ceiling/walls?

author: exoticelectron
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 11, 2017, 07:09:44 pm
content: Quote from: dunkemhigh on May 11, 2017, 07:06:30 pmI've detected studs in a wall before but I dont know if it would be useful for that regularly. There needs to be a temperature difference and that might not be present in a situation where the entire wall has reached equilibrium. But I'll do some tests and see what I find

author: mtdoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 11, 2017, 07:41:45 pm
content: exoticelectron,The new prototype looks good except that as discussed, it will be too large and heavy to entice myself or other physicians to carry in our pockets for occasional use.How about a second, smaller version with smaller button, switch, and speaker - powered by a smaller battery(s)?. Battery life would not be critical for that use case. Maybe after the initial product release?

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 12, 2017, 06:29:03 am
content: QuoteI mentioned it as something you could demo in a video. Doesn't have to work perfectly every time, just the once that you're showing it off

author: frenky
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 12, 2017, 11:14:11 am
content: I think that main feature missing is this:https://goo.gl/9T1RZQI would love to have a tiny thermal module (able to show actual temp) on my keychain.

author: frenky
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 15, 2017, 08:07:26 am
content: Interesting... I newer searched for it before but quick search on aliexpress shows really cheap models:6.2$:https://www.aliexpress.com/item/DIU-Pen-Type-Mini-Infrared-Thermometer-IR-Temperature-Measuring-LCD-Display-Free-Shipping/32637481719.html5.6$:https://www.aliexpress.com/item/High-Quality-Pen-Type-Mini-Infrared-Thermometer-IR-Temperature-Measuring-LCD-Display-50-250-Degree/32601408763.html6.6$https://www.aliexpress.com/item/Digital-Mini-Pen-Type-Non-Contact-Infrared-IR-Thermometer-Temperature-Meter-Measuring-Device-MFBS/32799168630.html13.9$:https://www.aliexpress.com/item/Pen-Type-Mini-Portable-HoldPeak-HP-960A-30-275-C-Digital-Infrared-Thermometer-Non-Contact-Laser/32809698325.html

author: garnix
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 15, 2017, 09:04:04 am
content: Yes, but all those seem to have a measure time of 0.8 sec. So a “swipe operation” over an electronic board to quickly find temperature differences is not possible, you would have to point to each patch of the board for 1 sec to find the hotspot.Nevertheless, I still like to have absolute temperature displayed - then you have like two devices in one: Swipe operation and spot-measuring. Otherwise I still need to buy two devices ;-)

author: fcb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 15, 2017, 10:42:01 am
content: Not sure if it's possible, but could you add an LED (red?) that illuminates the approximate area the sensor detects.This might give the user a better understanding of what they are scanning and build up a 'feel' for the DUT (device-under-test), if you were feeling super jazzy, perhaps use a tri-colour LED and change the colour of the illuminated 'spot' depending on temperature.

author: CJay
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 15, 2017, 11:10:31 am
content: Now I like that idea, dim the room, listen to the note and watch the LED illuminating the board change colour

author: exoticelectron
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 21, 2017, 07:46:04 pm
content: Hi guys, sorry for the delay, I've been swamped with major projects.So yes, there seems to be some major misunderstandings about why the deltaK is special.First of all, if you dont have a sub 50ms time constant for temperature to indicator, you don't have a scanner, you have a thermometer. All those devices with displays out there have very slow time constants and arent useful for scanning surfaces.Secondly, numeric displays are useless for scanning. Tones and colors are much better. Cameras use colors because they have a fixed display you stare at. A hand held device should use a tone, that leaves your eyes free to swipe the scanner and locate where its tone is peaking.These two things are CRITICAL. They are what make the deltaK different and special.Adding a colored led to indicate temperature would be a gimmick only really. Different surfaces have all kinds of colors and you'd never be able to get precise temperature information from a projected color, especially if its a dark surface. Same goes for LED's you look at directly, the eye is nowhere near as sensitive to color as it is to tone, and you dont want to be watching the scanner as you also move it, that doesnt make sense.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 21, 2017, 08:07:53 pm
content: QuoteHow do you know what it's pointing at?

author: exoticelectron
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 21, 2017, 08:13:15 pm
content: Quote from: dunkemhigh on May 21, 2017, 08:07:53 pmThats my point..its one or the other. What its pointing at, or what temperature its indicating. Not both. There is no reason to want both. Its much simpler and works great by using an audio tone for temperature and using your eyes to scan.

author: fcb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 21, 2017, 08:36:55 pm
content: How do you set the height of the scanner?

author: garnix
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 21, 2017, 09:05:29 pm
content: I think I understand what is special about the deltaK - but at the same time I'm not sure if a lot of people (outside of detecting faults on electronics boards) initially find the scanning feature very useful, without some research what could be done with such a device - I'm not even sure if it will help for my use cases ;-)That's why adding a color LED or vibration indicator does not really help, it would just be another GUI for the very same idea, a gimmick.But adding an absolute temperature display would "double" your feature set. Anybody understands what a temperature measuring device is and probably some will buy it just because of that... and then later might find out the usefulness of scanning fine temperature differences.Of course those are just my 10 cents ;-) and my guess and wishes are as good as anybody else's.

author: Ben321
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 21, 2017, 11:39:20 pm
content: That's not a thermal scanner. That's an IR thermometer (and those cost about $50 at Radio Shack, so they are pretty cheap). A thermal scanner is a type of thermal imager that has a pair of motorized mirrors that scan horizontally and vertical, and only a single-element thermal sensor (rather than a sensor array and stationary optics like in modern thermal imagers).

author: exoticelectron
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 21, 2017, 11:52:47 pm
content: Its interesting how some people instantly grasp what this device is and how it needs to work, and others are still thinking its a point and shoot IR thermometer.Take a stopwatch with a numeric display. Now start the stopwatch. Now run the stopwatch over a surface while you try to accurately read the rapidly changing display while simultaneously keeping track of where the stopwatch is and what you are scanning. Cumbersome isn't it? Careful, remember you need to spot the slightest change in the numbers to have any sort of high precision.Now take your point and shoot IR thermometer, and try mapping out a surface to find anomalies. Your time constant is about 0.5 to 1 second. So to make a 12 inch long scan with 1/4" resolution its going to take you 24 seconds. Now try scanning a 12 inch square surface with 1/8" resolution. See you in 38 minutes.

author: CJay
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2017, 06:38:33 am
content: I imagine it as the thermal equivalent of a metal detector. Potentially very handy and cheap enough to be worth playing with.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2017, 07:38:43 am
content: Quote from: exoticelectron on May 21, 2017, 08:13:15 pmI think you missed my drift, or I wasn't clear (more likely). If you can't see the scanner, how do you know it's pointing at the board where you're looking? It could be pointing off to the side. My supposition is that you know it is pointing the right way because you can see it in your peripheral vision. Actually, probably more to centre since it will be much closer to the board than your eyes! But the thing is that you won't befocusedon it.That's obviously not very good for reading numbers, but for seeing colour change (or just an LED going on or off) it is perfectly adequate.I know you're set against an LED of any kind as an indicator with this and I accept that. I'm just correcting what I think is an erroneous view that having such an indicator requires more concentration on it than a sounder does.

author: Kilrah
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 22, 2017, 02:11:49 pm
content: Quote from: exoticelectron on May 21, 2017, 11:52:47 pmNo, people have fully understood the difference - but as garnix says:Quote from: garnix on May 21, 2017, 09:05:29 pmWe understand you made a scanner, but we don't see in what common situations we might be in a scanner is good for if it doesn't ALSO have a thermometer function.We are not good at quantizing a change in tone, so we won't be good at quantizing a temperature difference with this. And when you scan a board there will always be temperature differences between components, only when you know how much can you figure out whether they're normal or not.

author: exoticelectron
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2017, 03:15:12 pm
content: Quote from: Kilrah on May 22, 2017, 02:11:49 pmNo, not everybody understands it. People posting comparisons to point and shoot IR thermometers, do not understand why the deltaK is different. Some people get it, some don't.I've already addressed this the first time you said it. Like I said before, if you were to see a thermal image of a surface using a thermal camera, with just colors, and no absolute data, it would be easy to spot anomalies. The deltaK works the same way. In reality, there are differences, enough of the time, to locate anomalies, on circuit boards, especially when you combine knowledge of known good boards, and knowledge of how the circuit works, but even without that information. I've been using this device for more than a decade for exactly this purpose, so I know for a fact it works for this. This is not a theoretical tool that I'm crossing my fingers will work right. Its already an established fact.Quantizing the tone is not how the deltaK is used. Hearing a continuously varying tone is a very intuitive way to locate changes in a signal. The video should make that really obvious. As the tone goes up, things are hotter, as it goes down, they are colder. How much the tone changes tells you how much of temperature change there is relative to a starting point of your choice. A few minutes using the deltaK to get used to the three sensitivity levels and you will already understand whats its telling you as far as absolute temperatures.What you are saying would mean that it would be impossible to find thermal variations using your sense of touch, because there are no absolute numbers. Or that heat maps don't tell you anything without absolute numbers. I'm sure almost everyone here has used their fingers to find hot parts on circuit boards. The deltaK lets you do the same thing but much faster, much more accurately, without the thermal mass of your finger, without burning yourself, and without touching live circuitry.

author: exoticelectron
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2017, 03:19:26 pm
content: Quote from: dunkemhigh on May 22, 2017, 07:38:43 amWhat I'm set against are useless features that don't add to the functionality. A numeric display is bad for a moving scanner thats meant to locate anomalies. Thats why metal detectors don't use a numeric display. Or the stopwatch example.A color changing light will not provide the resolution that a changing audio tone would, as I said, because color sensitivity is not as good as tone sensitivity. Also, you'd have to be watching the light while you are scanning. Its the same, although not as severe, problem as the numeric display. Listening to the tone change is much easier and more comfortable. So I dont see any reason to add an optical output. Worse in every way. Why would I change it to something that will not improve how it currently works? Whats the logic there?

author: exoticelectron
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2017, 03:21:23 pm
content: Quote from: CJay on May 22, 2017, 06:38:33 amThis is a reasonable comparison that I've made before, altough metal detectors dont have a signal at all times, while the delta K does, and they need to be moving to have an output at all, while the deltaK can be held still. But at an intuitive level its pretty similar. Sweep the device and find changes through sound.

author: Kilrah
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 22, 2017, 03:40:22 pm
content: Quote from: exoticelectron on May 22, 2017, 03:15:12 pmAnd I maintain that it isn'tYou can see a hot spot, but it is perfectly normal for that component to be hotter than the neighboring stuff, e.g. 20° above. It would however NOT be normal if it was 40° above. How do you determine that? The useful signal is drowned in "noise" from normal temp differences across the board.For the device to be useful I'd want to be able to do the same as with my thermal camera - look at the image, locate one or more potential issues visually, THEN evaluate them with numbers. Your insistance in not putting a numeric readout means I have to go dig another tool for that second, essential part of the job.Quote from: exoticelectron on May 22, 2017, 03:15:12 pmOf course you can find variations, but unlike with your device you can actually quantify them somewhat by the absolute "can I hold my finger on it or not" referenceQuote from: exoticelectron on May 22, 2017, 03:15:12 pmAs said above they tell you something - but not the whole story. Your device is initially useful, but stops being useful too quickly. Picture using a lightbulb to check 2 wires for presence of a voltage, when it lights it's great, but then you still have to dig out your voltmeter to check if it's the normal 12V or if it fell down to 9V for some reason and that's what your issue is, because I won't be able to say if it's 9V or 12V by the absolute brightness of the bulb.I have no problem using my finger checking for a hot spot, and if it seems abnormal I go grab the thermometer becasuse I kinda have my finger always on me for free - but if I purchase a tool that can technically measure temperature, that measuring temprature will most of the time be the next thing to do after using the tool for its primary purpose, then for me it is bad design and I won't buy it becasue even if its initial idea is useful it jsut falls short of really being practical. I'd rather have the really practical version even if it costs double.

author: mtdoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2017, 03:50:12 pm
content: I agree that a numeric temperature readout will not add much value. It will only make it more complicated and expensive.This is not meant to be a thermometer. It is a relative temperature scanner meant to quickly scan and delineate the boundaries of a temperature gradient. If it performs as specified, it will do this faster, more accurately, and safer than using one's fingers.

author: exoticelectron
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2017, 03:53:33 pm
content: Quote from: Kilrah on May 22, 2017, 03:40:22 pmName me any other device that uses a single color changing light to indicate a rapidly changing signal. There arent any. The problem with your logic is that you are theorizing how the deltaK works in practice, but I know how it works because I've used it for years. You even have a medical doctor on here that wants one for locating skin infections. There are patented devices that are very similar for medical and industrial usage and they all use tones for output. There is a firefighting device that does the same thing but at longer distances. 100% of them do not use numeric or optical outputs, because thats obviously an inferior and silly way to indicate relative temperature on a device you are scanning by physically sweeping. Colors work great on an image, but there are basically zero devices out there that use a single spot of color to indicate change.You can quantity the absolute temperature with the deltaK by simply starting the scan on a surface with a known temperature. Maybe the desk. Maybe a large blank area on the circuit board. You're over simplifying the way the deltaK gets used. Its a very intuitive device that extends your normal senses and brain and integrates with them as an enhancer.The reason I don't want to add a numeric absolute temperature display for point measurements is because of cost. The hardware can do it, but I'm leaving that for then open source hackers, or a future version. For scanning mode its useless.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2017, 03:55:04 pm
content: QuoteDepends on the scale. If, say, 25C and below was green and 30C and above red, you'd jolly well notice a degree or so change within that range.QuoteNo, you'd have to be able toseeit, which doesn't mean looking at it. Peripheral vision is great for on off (or flashing rate), but where your hand will be is great for colour and you don't need to be looking at it. If that weren't so, none of those irritating animated adverts would be so irritatingCome to think of it, as I am typing this I can see, without looking at them, the smilies line. Not the detail, but I see the colour and the motion.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2017, 03:57:25 pm
content: QuoteJust about every wire and pipe detector uses an LED. Don't know if they also use a sounder, but the LED does it for me just fine.

author: exoticelectron
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2017, 04:01:30 pm
content: Quote from: dunkemhigh on May 22, 2017, 03:57:25 pmA continuously changing color is not the same as red/green on off or a series of 5 leds that light up as a bargraph. Why do you want a feature added thats never been tried? I know for sure that the audio version works great. Why would you trust me to write the firmware and design all the circuitry, but when it comes to the whole reason I am making the device in the first place, which is to release a tool I have found very useful, suddenly you want it to be completely different?

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2017, 04:05:20 pm
content: QuoteAs I said before, I am profoundly deaf so just a sounder makes the device totally useless. I am pretty sure that I am not the only person thus afflicted and unable to benefit. On the other hand, if you put the LED in the device is usable to me, and hearing people canalsouse the sounder or LED as they wish.Kind of like subtitles on the telly. Obviously much worse than audio, but they're the only thing I can use, and many hearing people use the subtitles (I know not whether that's instead or as well, but the numbers are surprising).

author: exoticelectron
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2017, 04:05:54 pm
content: Quote from: mtdoc on May 22, 2017, 03:50:12 pmExactly! And yes I have definitely not forgotten about the special micro version for you. I am swamped with projects right now but I am going to make that. Probably after the kickstarter relaunch, but maybe before!

author: exoticelectron
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2017, 04:10:00 pm
content: Quote from: dunkemhigh on May 22, 2017, 04:05:20 pmIf I was to make a special one for you, I'd want it to work just as well as the audio version. Adding the color changing LED would be better than nothing, but a far cry from the ease and sensitivity of the tone. It would be reasonable in your case.

author: Kilrah
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 22, 2017, 04:10:18 pm
content: Quote from: mtdoc on May 22, 2017, 03:50:12 pmAgreed, but then once you've done that you'll want to know the temperature of one of the locations - and it's kinda stupid that it doesn't do it and you have to dig another tool.Quote from: exoticelectron on May 22, 2017, 03:53:33 pmAnd so will most of your potential customers, since it's only you who's used it for yearsAnalyzing the theory, trying to project that into practice and evaluating possibilities and usability is one of the main thing engineers do, on an engineer forum you're naturally going to face a lot of thatQuote from: exoticelectron on May 22, 2017, 03:53:33 pmCross-posted but I edited my post above to say I'd happily pay double if it had a temp readout function, however I won't pay $35 for the scanning alone since I feel while scanning is a good idea having only that makes no sense and I'd also want readout.Maybe I'm wrong and by using it I'd realize the readout isn't that useful (it will always somewhat be even for non-overlapping use) but that's how it comes to me. But becasue of [previous sentence] I will never know.

author: exoticelectron
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2017, 04:29:13 pm
content: Quote from: Kilrah on May 22, 2017, 04:10:18 pmTo be clear, I would also find it useful to have a numeric display for absolute temperature. Its just a cost thing. But of course it would be more useful than not having it. The deltaK is for finding temperature anomalies in space, not time. I find that usually when I need to measure anomalies in time, it makes alot more sense to have a multimeter style tool with a fixed probe, and in that case, I probably need to know absolute temperature too.In practice, I do not find that I need to know the absolute temperature of things while scanning circuit boards. It just doesn't seem to come up that often, if ever. And if you do need a quick absolute reference, you can just recal the deltaK on a known surface (2 seconds) and then go back to the anomaly and there you go, the 3 dynamic ranges are well defined and after you use it awhile you can get an idea what the absolute temperatures of things are using this method, just like you can by touching things. I go back to the thermal camera analogy, without absolute temperature data. A heat map tells you a tremendous amount about the thermal state of a surface, without absolute data. And if you want absolute data, just pick a roughly known spot and start the deltaK there.I dont find alot of thermal noise on circuit boards. Of course, there are an infinite number of circuit board designs out there. And there are of course some situations where thermal data by itself, even from a camera, might be too complex to make conclusions from. But even in that case, you can usually compare known good to device under test and figure things out.When I troubleshoot circuit boards, I bring the whole calvary, every meter, scope, soldering iron, thermometer, schematics, PCB layout, etc..... basically every tool and document I have and throw it all at the problem on the first go. Its not a situation where there is a benefit to having just-one-tool. The deltaK provides a unique functionality at a very low cost that fills a blank spot in that toolbox. I'm still keeping my Omega thermocouple meter, my point and shoot IR themometer, and if I ever get a thermal camera, that too, and of course the deltaK. They arent exclusive of each other, they compliment each other.

author: garnix
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2017, 04:38:54 pm
content: I understand the cost problem with an numeric display...Just to understand: I agree displaying 10 updates per sec on such a display would not be useful, but a MAX or MIN reading after scanning would be enough.

author: frozenfrogz
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 04, 2017, 12:04:49 pm
content: HelloAny updates on this projects?