Measuring ESD/Partial Discharge in electric grid. - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: dervu
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: January 21, 2023, 04:11:57 pm
content: Hi. I am working on very specific case in my place of residence.I am suspecting ESD/Partial Discharge being present in electric grid and caused by faulty connections or some other phenomenon happening at/near one device powered from the same electric grid.Whatever it is, it affects how electronics work, mostly visible at every computer present in apartment. Not wanna get into details, just want to find out how to measure things related to ESD, since only that makes sense and most other things are ruled out through years of testing.I know that ESD is supposed to go to ground. I am not sure if there is any evidence that ESD/Partial discharge would travel to electronics first instead to ground or neutral if is bonded to ground at some point.My apartment has old style electric grid (TN-C). According to my investigation issue was not present before this device was installed years ago.I ruled out many things by using different filters, up to high tier ones. Ferrites helped to some degree. Other high tier filters had better attentuation and range than those ferrites, but ferrites seem to affect ESD.RFI spectrum analyzer did not show anything meaningful.Every filter with direct connection failed. Galvanic isolation in toroidal balanced transformer helped, which also helped to find which device was most probably the source. Maybe electrostatic shield and indirect connection helped (I was forced to have floating ground to make it work - so electrostatic shield for sure was not working at its full capacity).Following my findings, disconnecting this source device helped. I want to get to the point of this issue. Not sure yet about faulty connections inside that device. Not really want to touch cold plastic housing during winter.This device was working outside on elevation for 10 years (so electronics prone to any temperature changes and weather phenomenons).My question is:What is cheapest and accurate enough measurement method and device to find out if electrostatic discharge or partial discharge is happening and is present in electric grid?- There are electrostatic field meters. I am not sure if it will show what is happening inside cable. Probably cheapest option?- There are sensors like HFCT, but this thing itself is as expensive as electrostatic field meter, but you also need wireless transmitter and analayzer, to keep it separate from grid, to not get affected. It all adds up to pretty high $. Seems like this is option only if I could rent it/hire someone to measure.

author: trobbins
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 21, 2023, 09:46:19 pm
content: Can you power the suspect equipment from an isolated supply (battery powered inverter, to indicate if the coupling is mainly radiated), or a supply that is connected to the mains from a somewhat distant point (ie. via an extension cord) ? Or vice versa, can you power a PC from a distant point (using extension cable) and still observe the same problem on the local PC.You are being vague about what the symptom is on other equipment (eg. on a PC) - is the symptom the same, and how do you measure that?

author: mzzj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 22, 2023, 08:14:45 pm
content: Quote from: trobbins on January 21, 2023, 09:46:19 pmhttps://www.eevblog.com/forum/beginners/pc-performance-correlated-with-relative-humidity/100/What next?

author: trobbins
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 23, 2023, 12:55:04 am
content: Quote from: dervu on January 21, 2023, 04:11:57 pmThere is no detailed description of the symptom as related to PC(s), or if such symptom is completely stopped by certain tests that dervu has done and has then assumed (if I interpret it correctly) a cause related to some aspect of the rf spectrum, and then to some root cause related to arcing. Imho that is all pretty vague so far, but I appreciate that defining in more detail may well be technically hard, but I'd suggest at least starting with a definition of the symptom.

author: jonpaul
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 23, 2023, 02:16:50 am
content: unlikely ESD.suspect power mains quality.Check with power Analyzers for line transients flicker, hits.First resources may be A UPS on the computers.Most mains filters and transients protectors unlikely to solve the problemJon

author: dervu
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: January 23, 2023, 02:39:59 pm
content: That linked post is just part of ongoing investigation. This is unfortunately how it works. Until you find source, block it, you can go in circles trying to find out what is wrong if you don't catch what is really happening.I just wanted to know about measurements, but whatever. Let's go with it for 100th time:Symptoms:- Inconsitency in inputs. Doesn't matter what hardware, new, old, Intel, AMD, laptop or PC, Windows, Linux, all the same.- Overall system feels weird, not snappy, game physics behaving weird- All symptoms scaling with power usage- Monitor smoothness is not as it should be- Some people with similiar issues have above plus:- Worse image quality- Measurements:- All possible measurements with software failed to find any data to correlate with issue happening- Easy to tell by experienced players in blind test - easily noticeable when you had it working correctly. Having someone with experience come and play can easily notice something is off.- Issue is not present at other locations with same hardwareHow issue behaves in timeline:- Sometimes it works better during night, sometimes it is bad for days.- Disconnecting, conencting devices, especially filters makes some temporary difference that can last up to days/weeksWhat was already tried:- Multiple EMI/RFI filters / Schaffner FN700Z- Double conversion / Online UPS- Capacitors used for power factor correction- Ferrites on power cables between socket and PSU (helped to some degree - for multiple people with same issue)- Balanced toroidal transformer - So far helped for me. For some reason working only with floating ground - so no direct connectionUsed this device to isolate suspected device and that is why I suspect this specific device - because it also worked same way as isolating PC, while without isolating issue comes back - unless suspected device is disconnected.Measured harmonics - all in norm.Measured RFI by myself with RFI spectrum analyzer, also asked professionals to measure - nothing.Now, knowing potential source, I would like to know more why it happens. Maybe it is some kind of interference, but not easy to catch, maybe it's ESD, idk.I have tried to power using UPS battery disconnected from grid - it was better, but battery lasted short time. Comparing that to some period of time when it would be better by itself, it is not conclusive, but maybe indicative that it is conducted.We have discussed on motherboard elements like oscillators being affected, which would affect timing of everything in system, resulting in this inconsistency in whole system. There are some studies showing oscillators being affected by ESD. How strong it would have to be to affect it to symptoms like above to appear is the question.I also suspected supraharmonics, but this is something completely new and barely anyone heard about it.I doubt anyone will deduct anything more than I already heard or read. So I am just trying to find ways to measure things to know more.

author: trobbins
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 23, 2023, 10:58:57 pm
content: Imho that is still all very vague, but at least you have provided your background - asking for advise on a forum is aided by providing background (even if it is just links to related threads), as the request for advice can appear very open-ended when the requested topic is very specific like ESD.I still have the view that your 'problem' is too poorly defined as to go on fishing expeditions for solutions. My 2c is I'd suggest you continue to try and define the problem until you have tangible symptoms, and metrics for those symptoms.

author: jonpaul
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 24, 2023, 12:32:07 am
content: Rebonjourlacking any images or numbers, or complete history, I am re-reading the OP list of "symptoms" and solutions.....doesn't seem like an EMI, or mains power issue.Same problems when on UPS, battery devices like tablets, mobiles, laptops when not connected to mains power?Same when at another site or traveling?Can it be possiblyMalware, virus, DNS redirect at router or in affected devices....run malware, root it, antivirus SW.imagined symptoms reinforced by confirmation bias? Get a third party to confirm the symptoms?Jon

author: dervu
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: January 28, 2023, 05:04:25 pm
content: I already went through this all and excluded anything not related to power. Do not want anyone here solving this. All I need is just to know how can I measure ESD occurences.It is not EMI/RFI unless it is at frequency that none of filters can filter and somehow jump through AC to DC conversion.By sharing all of this and going through it for n-th time explaining I am just wasting time instead of performing more tests show proof.People as usual will just discuss and it leads nowhere.If I will not find way to measure it I will only have one thing left. Hire some EMC company and hope that they have a way to measure what is coming from suspected device.I will only show recordings when I will have measurements correlating with issue. Anyway I need more equipment for proper test to have 1:1 comparison with issue present and not present side to side, so noone will have any doubts.

author: Njk
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2023, 05:43:02 pm
content: Perhaps it'll make sense to clarify this with your electricity providerhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_power_quality

author: jonpaul
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2023, 06:01:23 pm
content: ESD= electrostatic discharge , eg from cold, dry weather, walking across an acrylic carpet.EMI: Electromagnetic Interference eg radio transmitter or motor sparksSuspect you have a power transient /power quality issue.A UPS, transient protector will not fix it.Try to contact your utility , and ask neighbors if they have same issues.A power survey firm will cost many 1000s $/E/L and do nothing to find th real causeJon

author: trobbins
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2023, 09:25:55 pm
content: dervu, my 2c is that you show no technical credibility because you don't want to present a detailed background. You could for example simply link to a detailed document that presents your tests and symptoms so far - presumably you have and use such a detailed document as a way of progressing with your investigation? If you don't, then that suggests a lack of scientific skill and approach, and hence other forum readers may have your view that it is just a waste of their time to respond as any testing is not being adequately reviewed for rigor and outcome.