Is there such a thing as a real light switch that is also controllable/actuated? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Artlav
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2019, 11:41:19 am
content: I've been thinking about all kinds of IoT switches that are popular these days, and the obvious drawback of them that you need to pull out your phone to turn the lights on.Now, an obvious solution to that drawback would be to have a real clanking power switch, which can also be sensed and actuated by a microcontroller inside or nearby.Like a position sensor and some kind of a magnetic punch/pull device packed inside a regular lights switch.Thus you'll be able to press it in everyday use, and turn it off and on from a phone when you want to get fancy.Oddly enough i wasn't able to find anything like that, which raises a few questions:-Am i looking for it wrong? If so, where can i get one?-Is that actually something that is not obvious or is hard to make? If so, why?-If you were to make one, how would you do it (assuming a typical 60x60 mm lights switch box)?

author: tsman
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2019, 12:19:12 pm
content: TheAeotec Nano Dimmermodules can do that. It has two sense terminals which you wire up a regular light switch to so you can control it directly.You do need a deep backbox in the wall though to fit it.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2019, 02:59:56 pm
content: Most smart switches have buttons to allow using them just like normal switches.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2019, 03:10:35 pm
content: Do the various outlet box mounted WiFi/IoT enabled light switches which include a manual pushbutton on the wall count? This seems like a solved problem but maybe I do not understand what you are asking for.

author: Artlav
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2019, 03:35:23 pm
content: Ok, so most of them have push buttons to do the switching...I was thinking about a classical switch that would move itself when the digital stuff switches it, rather than separate relay-toggling buttons for on and off.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2019, 03:44:57 pm
content: It's probably not hard to make a switch like you are thinking of, but what is the essential benefit?You have been able to get X.10 switches for decades that can be controlled both manually and remotely, but they don't go "Click" and physically change position.The meaning of "Up" and "Down" on the switch becomes meaningless, of course - it just flicks to the opposite state of whatever it was doing when you flip it. But - that's no different behaviou from a normal pair of 3-wire lamp switches as you would find e.g. in starwells etc. in most houses?

author: rbm
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2019, 03:54:58 pm
content: I'd be concerned with the user's reaction to that type of interface. Which control system take priority, the real world analogue switch or the virtual digital controller? If I'm the user and I enter the room to turn on the lights, I flip the switch. Then, when I exit the room, I again flip the switch to turn off the lights. This is a typical learned activity. Meanwhile, the state of the light can get overridden (not necessarily by me) through the digital controller. How do I re-establish command over the state of the light in the analogue world, meanwhile keeping in line with the learned activity. I see the switch in the ON position but the lights are off. Is there a problem with the light, or the electrical supply or the switch? What do I do? The first intuitive action is to flip the switch a couple times to see if its the switch "acting up". If it doesn't cause the light to illuminate, then I'll start to troubleshoot the bulb or look at the fuse panel. All the while, it could be the digital controller taking priority over the state of the light. That's potentially frustrating. I think the user interface and prioritization scheme would need to be well worked out.

author: Artlav
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2019, 05:42:08 pm
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on February 03, 2019, 03:44:57 pmMostly an art for the art's sake. I.e. a house that feels perfectly regular when you are there, but would turn off the lights you forgot about after you leave.Quote from: rbm on February 03, 2019, 03:54:58 pmWhich is exactly the problem i'm trying to avoid by having a switch that physically switches to the position the digital controller was asked to set.The state of the light would be the state of the switch, and the controller only have an authority over the mechanism that can toggle that switch one way or another.So the only conflict possible would be of the "fight the robot" kind -

author: DDunfield
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2019, 02:57:11 pm
content: Quote from: NiHaoMike on February 03, 2019, 02:59:56 pmI have a couple of those ... look like normal rocker switches (but are momentary contacts).But... "use" like normal switches - not a chance!If you're not paying attentions and hold it down a bit too long (doesn't take much), the light does NOT come on, instead the switch goes into a "special mode" where nothing works until you beat on it a few times (probably some sort of setup function).If you're not particularly assertive, and happen to "bounce" so that it see's a double-tap (again, doesn't take much), the light does NOT come on and it goes into a "different special mode" where you have to beat on it differently to get back to normal operation.Sometimes "neato-cool" features aren't a great idea - a light switch should be a light switch. You shouldn't need a manual in the middle of the night to turn on the kitchen light.There's also a noticeable delay when you turn a light on... probably "getting permission" from the controller and various servers.Adding technology doesn't always improve!Dave

author: rrinker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2019, 08:43:46 pm
content: This whole "Internet of hings" where each and every device individually makes a connection to the internet has got to be one of the stupidest things I've seen. As a computer guy who happened to study engineering and then got pulled over to the computer side, it just seems bad in every way I can think of. Why does my light switch or light bulb have to go to a web page out in the wide world to do its thing? What's wrong with it all going to a locally located central hub device, using local LAN communications only (wireless or wired) and that single hub device making the one connection to the outside world if you want the features of being able to control your home while you're off on holiday in some other country? If that hub device is sufficiently secured, then there's not a lot to worry about with security of those individual 'things'. Putting a whole bunch of devices with questionable security directly in contact with the outside world is like putting a big sign on your house say the doors are unlocked, the dog is locked up, come on in and take whatever you want.

author: Red Squirrel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2019, 02:53:38 am
content: I've kind of thought this out. If I was building a house, the way I would do it is every light switch would have a standard romex wire going to a central control panel that would house a relay controller. When you turn on a switch it would simply tell the micro controller that it's on. you could then program it the way you want from that point. Do you want the physical switch to take priority, or the "soft switch". Technically you could even just treat the light switch as a toggle switch, the on/off position would not really matter, it would just look for a change of status. But basically from here you can make it do what you want.I guess one downside of this is it would use quite a bit more wire as everything has to go back to that cabinet. You could have multiple of these cabinets throughout the house though and then they all link up together.The neat thing with this though is you could do all sorts of interesting things like re-assign light switches to anything you want. If you REALLY want to get fancy every single outlet in the house could also have it's own relay. You could have all sorts of timers and stuff setup too.What I do hate though is that consumer stuff is all cloud based IoT BS. It's why I would just design my own system.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2019, 05:03:57 am
content: For just lights, I would go with an off the shelf PSU module (most likely 12V or 24V) powering LED panels with built in dimming. Then run 4 core cable to the switch, two cores for control power and the remaining two could be used for something as advanced as RS485 or as simple as a potentiometer.

author: rrinker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2019, 03:38:53 pm
content: I actually am planning to do something like this when redoing my basement. The main purpose of my basement will be to house a large model railroad layout. I do not like having things powered up and running when I'm not there - see the guy who had a fire when (presumably) his soldering station caught fire. My workbench has a single switch that controls everything on it - test gear, soldering station - everything except my computer is shut off when I turn off that switch. It's part of a Tripp-Lite surge protector/filter, this model has a remote on/off switch to the main strip is mounted to the back of my bench and the switch is up under the front corner, near where I mounted the socket for my wrist strap. Anyway, in my basement I want something similar to kill the power to all the electrical outlets around the room (things like the furnace, water heater, and freezer are on separate circuits). I don't think code will allow that many outlets on one switch, even through the actual total load in use will be well within the limits of a switch. Plus I want to be able to turn it on and off from 2 places, in the basement itself and at the top of the stairs. ALong with a pilot light that tells me it's all powered up. So instead of running all the power to all the outlets all over the place, I thought about some sort of low voltage remote control. I don;t see much need to hook this to any sort of automation system though - although I suppose using motion sensors and/or presence detectors I could have it automatically switch everything off after a certain amount of time with no motion detected and no presence, in case I forget to flip the switch.