(discharged) Super capacitor in checked luggage on airplane? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Zucca
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 15, 2023, 04:00:46 am
content: I would like to ask to a friend to bring me a board with six Maxwell BCAP0310 on a airplane from EU to US.Big wires, strange electronic products... large components... guess what could happen....Google suggest to not place the item in the carry on, but in the checked bag.Beside the discussion with some X-Ray/security guy that it is not a bomb, is there any regulation that prevent air travel with discharged super cap in a checked in baggage?Thanks!

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2023, 09:19:04 am
content: Quote from: Zucca on January 15, 2023, 04:00:46 amI suspect a lot will depend on their appearance, their demeanour, the airport, the alert level, and the alertness of the staff. Takinganythingacross any border for "a friend" is likely to raise suspicions; just watch the various "Border Patrol" type programmes on TVIt would be sensible to take data sheets, purchase documentation, packaging, and anything else that might help to satisfy their inquisitiveness as to whether it is or isn't a homebrew device.I have taken a transportable 10V voltage reference containing two 7Ah SLA cells on a flight as hand baggage (UK<->Germany), without trouble. At the check-in scanner I was smiling, and before and after it went through the X-ray machine I asked them whether they wanted to see what was in the bag.In the past I have taken a camera through, and they asked me to switch it on. I couldn't, since it was a 1950 mechanical camera. They shrugged and waved me through

author: Robert763
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2023, 02:43:03 pm
content: Hi,No specfic restrictions on carrying capacitors on passenger aircraft. However it is an unusual case and supercapacitors did not exist when most regulations were written. The energy limit for batteries is 100 Wh or 360 kJ. A 310 F 2.7 V capacitor is 1.1kJ so well under.I suggest carrying them with the terminals securely shorted, each capacitor in a separate plastic bag and then packed with padding / bubblewrap. Ideally mark "NOT BATTERIES" and put a printout of the datasheet with them. Put them in CHECKED baggage. The marking is in case they open the bag during security checks. Don't put anything with cables near them in the bag. Devices with energy stored in them are normally limited to cabin baggage so that any overheating can be detected and action taken. Carrying supercapacitors in checked baggage is not a good idea because screening staff will not know what they are. If shorted there is no energy so OK to put into checked baggage.Robert G8RPICEng FRAeS(edit for typos)

author: mendip_discovery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2023, 03:44:06 pm
content: I would he honest with the security staff and talk to them. From the programs I have seen if you declare they really take that as a sign you are not there for naughty reasons and work with you.http://www.gov.uk/hand-luggage-restrictionsAsk your travel agent if they could put you in contact with the security and you can speak to them direct and sort this out if its concerning you.I suspect you will just say you have some stuff the security shrug and let you go on your way.

author: Robert763
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2023, 04:13:06 pm
content: Asking in advance is a waste of time becuase you won't be talking to the person who checks on the day. Looking at UK restrictions is of limited use because the items are not departing from the UK.For carry-on, no matter what the guidance says, the decision rests with the checker at the gate. You risk loosing anything you take as carry-on. I have had an item specifically designed to be carry-on compliant and "approved" by the TSA taken from me at the gate. Some airports will let you put items in the post, for a charge, but most just take them.As long as they are discharged and the terminals are shorted the capacitors are perfectly OK to go in checked baggage. They might be misidentified during screening hence the need to mark as not batteries and ideally attach data sheet. Keeping any cables that might be in the bag well away from them wil reduce the risk of misidentification. I'm an aerospace professional with training in this stuff. I know what they look for but for reasons that should be obvious I'm not going to go into any details.Robert.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2023, 05:24:47 pm
content: Quote from: Robert763 on January 15, 2023, 04:13:06 pm... and sell them at auction. Don't know who gets the proceeds.Since covid hit air travel, there are far fewer kindles/tablets and leathermen knives in the "unclaimed property" sections at local auctions

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2023, 05:45:34 pm
content: Ive always wondered why some enterprising person dont put a vending machine by the check in/security gate selling stamps ,padded envelopes and wrapping material with a post box next to it

author: Robert763
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2023, 07:15:31 pm
content: Quote from: themadhippy on January 15, 2023, 05:45:34 pmSome do, or did. Certainly San Francisco International did last time I flew out of there. Wasn't a machine IIRC you called and paid by card. and they authenticated the number pre-printed on the label.

author: Robert763
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 16, 2023, 07:14:10 pm
content: An electrolytic capacitor or supercapcitor will not burst at aircraft altitudes. There are hundreds if not thousands of them on every aircraft. the units used are the same as used in commercial equipment.There is little or no gas in a capacitor to cause a pressure differential never mind excessive force. They burst in operation due to the electrolyte being boiled by a fault.The reason for putting it in checked baggage is so a screener does not see it.Robert G8RPI.

author: Kasper
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 16, 2023, 08:04:09 pm
content: Quote from: Zucca on January 15, 2023, 04:00:46 amTo call it a potential 'discussion' is to minimize the risk you are pushing to your friend.If this causes your friend hours of time being interviewed or worse, will you compensate them for their time and 'pain and suffering'? What if they miss their flight or have a delay retrieving their luggage? Have you agreed on fair compensation for this? Could it impact your friendship? How does that compare to the cost of shipping?

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 16, 2023, 08:20:11 pm
content: I think packing them with a datasheet is probably a good idea. I flew out of London with several HID and fluorescent lamp ballast chokes in my carry on bag and a light fixture, a bunch of lamps and other assorted electrical hardware packed in the dirty laundry in my checked bag. The security guy pulled me aside at the xray machine with a puzzled look on his face and asked me what the ballasts were so I told him and then he sent me on my way. My checked bag showed no signs of having been gone through by the time I got home.

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 16, 2023, 08:32:13 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on January 16, 2023, 08:20:11 pmyep, packed with datasheet and shorted link across terminals with a label on the wire link saying "Capacitor terminals shorted, zero stored energy"

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 16, 2023, 08:47:56 pm
content: Quote from: Psi on January 16, 2023, 08:32:13 pmChannelling Mandy Rice-Davies' statement in court, the traditional pithy response is "well, the terrorists would write that, wouldn't they".

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 17, 2023, 06:57:51 am
content: You just want it obvious that you know what you're doing when they bring in an expert to look at it.That will always be better than just a large supercar capacitor with no other info.A fully charged supercap (like 3000F) will very happy start fires and melt steel, so there's definitely risk having one loose in your luggage if it's got any charge left.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 17, 2023, 08:40:52 am
content: Quote from: Psi on January 17, 2023, 06:57:51 amYou think they have such experts readily available at a few minutes notice?If there is any doubt in their minds, what do you think they will do? Load the plane, delay the flight, pull the owner off the flight so they can question them, retain the item for testing?Don't forget standard screening questions are along the lines of "is this all your stuff" and "did you pack this yourself" and "has it been out of your possession". The passenger would give the "wrong" answer to two of those.QuoteBut will it be good enough?

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 17, 2023, 08:46:14 am
content: Quote from: Robert763 on January 15, 2023, 02:43:03 pmFor Lithium batteries only.https://www.tsa.gov/travel/security-screening/whatcanibring/items/lithium-batteries-100-watt-hours-or-less-device

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 17, 2023, 10:44:10 am
content: Quote from: tggzzz on January 17, 2023, 08:40:52 amWho knows, but it's better than nothing.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 17, 2023, 11:23:04 am
content: My experience is to be persistent but polite. One time they tried to deny me bringing incandescent bulbs onto the plane. I was persistent enough they brought prohibited items booklet where economy bulbs were listed. I did not give up these were not economy bulbs until they got frustrated and let me through after like 15 minutes wasted.I also brought some chemicals which they tried to deny but I got them trough eventually. Even though one of them was actually prohibited. Some information paper to show what it is certainly helps.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 17, 2023, 11:41:54 am
content: My experience in EU airports is that they don't give a damn what's in your check-in baggage. Never got called to an additional check. On other hand it was like 30% chance in large Russian airports and like 80% chance in one smaller airport.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 17, 2023, 04:31:14 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on January 17, 2023, 11:41:54 amThey probably wanted your money to grease the wheels for security. Same with police stopping you for no apparent reason abroad.Although I just saw security stopping and checking someone's Christmas bread (filled with dried fruit and almond paste) for drugs or bombs. Sometimes they checked my coat. I just told them that I make my bombs in my other coat, they weren't amused.Quote from: Robert763 on January 15, 2023, 02:43:03 pmThe limit is in place for the lithium content, not the energy capacity.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 17, 2023, 04:39:04 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on January 17, 2023, 11:23:04 amI did that with my daughter getting into Canada for a skiing holiday ~20 years ago. It took about an hour; the other holiday makers were not amused at the delay.Paperwork didn't help. In fact it activelyhinderedthe process: two new passports set alarm bells ringing.

author: Kasper
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 17, 2023, 08:16:55 pm
content: Quote from: Psi on January 17, 2023, 10:44:10 amBut is it better than shipping it with a real courier instead of a friend?

author: Robert763
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 17, 2023, 09:17:32 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on January 17, 2023, 11:23:04 amSo why do you think it is OK to carry a prohibited item? They are prohibited for good reason. You either had a actual or potential weapon or something that was a risk to aircraft / passenger safety.

author: Robert763
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 17, 2023, 09:30:06 pm
content: Quote from: tszaboo on January 17, 2023, 04:31:14 pmNo, the 100 W limit is not about lithium content, just energy. Lithium ion cells don't contain any metallic Lithium. There is a separate limit on metallic Lithium content (2g) which mainly applies to primary cells. Exceeding either 100W/h or 2g Lithium makes a battery (or large cell) illegal to carry on a passenger aircraft.Food containing almonds can trigger some types of explosives detection.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 17, 2023, 09:53:53 pm
content: Quote from: Robert763 on January 17, 2023, 09:17:32 pmThere was totally no risk. It just falls into oxidizing agents category which is prohibited. Why? Because I needed this drying agent for gas analysis to do my job. As of dangers, if there was condition when it would pose some danger, it wouldn't be our main trouble as it decomposes at 250oC and there wasn't that much of it to begin with.

author: Zucca
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 18, 2023, 03:05:53 am
content: Many thanks for all the answers!I decided to build my own super cap bank here in USA and leave my friend in peace. I will ask him to bring me only aKweld, which should be not a big problem....

author: MadScientist
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 18, 2023, 08:13:27 am
content: Don’t ask anyone anything. Just put it in your luggage and proceed as normal. I’ve brought super caps on checked luggage

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 18, 2023, 10:45:37 am
content: Quote from: MadScientist on January 18, 2023, 08:13:27 amBefore anybody bothers to reply to MadScientist, they may find it beneficial to look at his other posts (via the profile).Here's a response to one I read 5mins ago; IMNSHO there are many others.https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/ev-based-road-transportation-is-not-viable/msg4645195/#msg4645195

author: Robert763
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 18, 2023, 07:01:54 pm
content: Quote from: bigfoot22 on January 18, 2023, 07:35:19 amErr,If the pressure is generated by boiling the electrolyte the presure will reduce when the temperature falls. Even if there is some permanent chemical decomposition that produced gas, if it didn't burst the capacitor when it was hot it certainly isn't going to bust when it's cold. In anycase all modern capacitors are designed to safely vent any internal pressure.Robert G8RPI.

author: Robert763
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 18, 2023, 07:19:14 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on January 17, 2023, 09:53:53 pmYou may think there was no risk, but oxidizers are banned for a reason. Do you have qualifications in aviation safety? It's not your place to make that assesment. I am qualified to make that assesment and even then would never pack any prohibited item or substance on a aircraft. People have died because oxidisers were carried on passenger aircraft. Even the airlines are not allowed to carry smoke hoods etc as cargo on a passenger aircraft even though that same aircraft may have several installed as emergency equipment.You do not have the right to put other peoples lives at risk.If you needed the material for your work you should have arranged for a supply at your destination or had it shipped by a suitable freight carrier.No excuses.Robert.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 18, 2023, 07:39:31 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on January 17, 2023, 09:53:53 pmThat's a pretty good example of the Dunning Krueger Syndrome: an amateur that thinks they know more than the professionals who understand the dangers because of long experience and because they face the possible consequences every day.IToo would be right at home in the extreme right wing of the UK Conservative party, who are planning to make a bonfire of all the EU regulations. That's bonfire in the Geenfell Tower sense.Many safety rules in many fields are apparently unnecessary. But they are all there because of previous accidents - many of which would notcould nothave been predicted by people like yourself.Now if you can't think of the potential dangers when oxidisers get loose, then .... I'm surprised in a bad way.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 18, 2023, 10:01:18 pm
content: Quote from: Robert763 on January 18, 2023, 07:19:14 pmPlease list at least one accident.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 18, 2023, 10:17:22 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on January 18, 2023, 10:01:18 pmi'm curious too.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 18, 2023, 10:23:01 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on January 18, 2023, 10:01:18 pmDon't bother, of course.If you did bother to find and list an occurrance, he would find a way to dispute its relevance. There is, after all, no true Scotsman.

author: hans
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 18, 2023, 11:26:28 pm
content: Maybe this?https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_African_Airways_Flight_295I really only punched in 'oxidizer airplane incident', minimum effort. Some research points to oxidizer material as cause.Nonetheless, this sounds like a classic forhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survivorship_biasOne can point to hazardous materials (like Lithium batteries) that are considered OK and carried in/out everyday. Why not reinforce those rules as well?Well maybe because the real danger is on other materials because you never hear someone about it's story, because there is no one to tell that story, and the story does not tell itself because the plane and/or bag in cargo hold is long gone after the incident.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 19, 2023, 01:59:15 am
content: Quote from: bigfoot22 on January 18, 2023, 07:35:19 amNo chance. Aircraft cabin altitude is 6,000-8,000 ft at cruising altitude. That's enough of a pressure change to cause a plastic water bottle to bow in or hiss slightly when opened but it's not nearly enough to make anything rupture.

author: Thunderer
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 19, 2023, 02:39:47 am
content: Quote from: james_s on January 19, 2023, 01:59:15 amWhile the aircraft engines are cruising at 30,000 ft altitude. What kind of plane are you making reference to? Commercial ones, not only the trans-atlantic (as the present case) do not fly at 6-8,000 ft altitude but in the 5 minutes from take-off and while preparing the landing.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 19, 2023, 03:09:03 am
content: Quote from: Thunderer on January 19, 2023, 02:39:47 amUh, perhaps you are confusing cabin altitude with the actual cruising altitude of the aircraft? Commercial airliners are pressurized to an equivalent pressure of 6,000-8,000 ft, this is called cabin altitude. If not for that, the passengers and crew would lose consciousness by the time the plane reached cruising altitude.

author: amc184
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 19, 2023, 06:52:19 am
content: I've taken equipment containing large electrolytics that were similar in appearance to supercapacitors as both checked luggage and carry on in the US before. TSA took the equipment from the bag and tested a swab from it with an ion scanner. Getting a clear result from that seemed to be all they wanted to see. I haven't taken large cylinders on their own, and I don't have any experience in the EU.I don't want to get involved in the discussion about safety, but the plane the crashed because of on-board oxidisers might be this one:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ValuJet_Flight_592It was a pretty extreme amount in this case, from a large quantity of improperly stored chemical oxygen generators.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 19, 2023, 06:59:08 am
content: Quote from: tggzzz on January 18, 2023, 10:23:01 pmHe claimed people died because passengers bringing oxidizers. I googled and found nothing.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 19, 2023, 07:13:22 am
content: Quote from: amc184 on January 19, 2023, 06:52:19 amIt was because of improperly handled oxygen generators by airlines company.QuoteWhat I brought is chemically stable, unlike hydrogen peroxide for example. Unless you throw a bottle into a strong fire, nothing will happen. Also unlike gas generators which contain components to react, there was nothing it can react with.

author: Robert763
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 19, 2023, 07:51:07 am
content: Well you have not named the chemical so I don't know why I should bother.Valuejet flight 592.But it does not have to be a fireball accident. spillage of even common chemicals can cause damage to airframe and systems causing issuews later. At a lower level a diversion costs money delays passengers and increases risk due to non-normal operation.EDIT:Note that a serious incident or accident normally requires a chain of events and / or actions. A oxidizer alone may not cause a crash but if something else is wrong it may be a vital part of the chain. Banning such items is a important means if refucing the risk.Google James Reason swiss cheese modelYou made an extra hole in the cheese.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 19, 2023, 12:22:00 pm
content: Quote from: Robert763 on January 19, 2023, 07:51:07 amJust so. Even water is a potential problem.In the 757 cockpit after a flight landed my I and my daughter were chatting to the pilot (he even let her sit in his chair). He mentioned that he had once had to delay a flight because water was leaking from a package containing live elvers. Elvers are a particularly edge case: if fresh water then no problem, if salt water then he would have grounded the aircraft for inspection. (it was fresh water)And, of course, mercury has "interesting" and subtle effects on aluminium alloys.QuotePrecisely.Any arguments to the effect that "I ran into a road without looking and wasn't knocked down" should be ignored. There's a good argument the person making such arguments should be ignored too.

author: Thunderer
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 19, 2023, 11:37:41 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on January 19, 2023, 03:09:03 amI see now, you are right.