Why don't they visually update more datasheets ? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: MathWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 14, 2023, 05:12:48 am
content: I'm just looking at a TI cd4024 datasheet and it's an old crusty looking photo-copy, and they don't even have a timing diagram.So why don't some of these big companies at least update their old crappy photocopies ? Or in BJT datasheets, they should not leave any question as to what view the 'pinout view' is, or which pins are what.For some sample chips, TI can hire me to update their photocopies.

author: srb1954
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 14, 2023, 07:36:19 am
content: Quote from: MathWizard on March 14, 2023, 05:12:48 amThere isn't really any need for a timing diagram for a simple ripple counter such as this - all the necessary timing information is contained in the datasheet tables and is easily interpreted without a timing diagram.This is a jelly bean chip so there is not much money in it for TI to update the datasheet for the very few users who are still using this really old technology. You have to remember that this chip was designed more than 50 years ago and the original design engineers are probably not very interested in updating the datasheets while they enjoy their retirement.

author: MathWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 14, 2023, 07:58:33 am
content: Not everyone would know tho. But they have a die picture, it could look worse, but it's bad. So are the graphs.https://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/cd4024b.pdf?ts=1678770244955&ref_url=https%253A%252F%252Fwww.google.com%252FBut that's their own website, I'd have some intern update such things, it's a disgrace.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 14, 2023, 08:07:22 am
content: Given that many of the data sheets that don’t get updated are ones for 74-series logicwhich include the 54-series military versions, it’s conceivable that datasheet updates carry some certification or compliance costs.

author: jfiresto
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 14, 2023, 09:14:16 am
content: The TI 4000-series datasheets look like scans of the original RCA datasheets from when they first introduced the parts. I would not be unhappy if some modern datasheets tried to parameterize parts as well.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 14, 2023, 09:26:52 am
content: Quote from: MathWizard on March 14, 2023, 05:12:48 amThe original typesetting files (or punched paper tapes? or films?) for these datasheets have probably been lost long ago, or are in a format no current tool can import. Hence scans of some printed version of the document are all they have, and these are not really editable unless you want to go back to classic "cut & paste".It would take quite a few sample chips to motivate me to re-type complete datasheets and recreate their graphs using modern tools...

author: rdl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 14, 2023, 03:11:06 pm
content: Some companies do update their data sheets. Maybe most of them do and only TI doesn't. If you just have to have a newer version, do an internet search for the part number and look for a pdf from a manufacturer that isn't TI.https://www.renesas.com/us/en/document/dst/cd4020bms-cd4024bms-cd4040bms-datasheetThe same thing probably works at Mouser, Digi-ket, etc.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 14, 2023, 03:17:56 pm
content: Quote from: MathWizard on March 14, 2023, 05:12:48 amThis similar part (I think from Motorola, originally), seems to have the timing diagram.https://www.mouser.co.uk/datasheet/2/308/1/MC14024B_D-2315480.pdf

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 14, 2023, 06:47:06 pm
content: Quote from: jfiresto on March 14, 2023, 09:14:16 amAmusingly, because I just did a project using 4000-series logic, I was looking at these today, and indeed the TI datasheets are second-generation copies of the RCA datasheets. TI got them from Harris, which got them from RCA. Both the RCA and Harris datasheets are absolutely identical.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 14, 2023, 06:52:54 pm
content: Quote from: rdl on March 14, 2023, 03:11:06 pmIn the last 2 weeks, in the tiny final project I’ve been working on, I encountered numerous datasheets from Analog Devices, Diodes, Inc, and others that are not updated to the current brand. All exactly the same situation: acquired brands. Linear Technology, Micrel, and a few others I’d never even heard of.And this is for things recent enough that they’re at least fully-digital PDFs, so you’d think they have access to the source documents…I’ve definitely run into scanned datasheets from other vendors than TI, though. I think TI has a ton of them simply because they’ve acquired so many semiconductor companies, including some of the oldest ones.Quote from: rdl on March 14, 2023, 03:11:06 pmBeware that the specs might not be the same! I know this came up semi-recently on here with 1N400x diodes, where different manufacturers had different specs for them.

author: schmitt trigger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 14, 2023, 07:08:12 pm
content: As others have already mentioned, these components are below commodity status. No one is becoming rich selling them. Well, perhaps the exception is Rochester Electronics.No money made? No time and effort will be spent on those devices. I am surprised they are still being manufactured by major-league semiconductor companies. These are the epitome of aging cash cows.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 14, 2023, 07:11:21 pm
content: It's bad that these datasheets are not searchable by keywords. On other hand it's good they are still old versions, as I've seen plenty of times new versions of datasheets remove variants of part numbers/suffixes no longer produced as if they never existed and older datasheet is nowhere to be found.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 14, 2023, 07:13:56 pm
content: There's no profit in drafting new datasheets for decades old parts that are used primarily for replacement purposes. I doubt they want to encourage anyone to use those old parts, likely they would prefer to discontinue them entirely but keep producing them as long as people are still buying them.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 14, 2023, 11:28:08 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on March 14, 2023, 07:11:21 pmThey often are. You can also find the entire old databooks on archive.org, and they’re almost invariably OCRed and thus searchable.

author: PwrElectronics
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2023, 04:02:07 pm
content: I must have first seen this 15 or more years ago. Downloaded a pdf and it was a miserable photocopy of an old databook. The pages were even crooked. I imagined some poor underpaid intern locked in the copy room with a big stack of old paperback hard copies.At the time, I was thinking I may have the real printed databook in my home library collection and that would be easier to read.A couple years ago I got a chance to feel even older. A coworker a little older than me and I were talking about something and he related a recent conversation with a junior engineer who was shocked/surprised to learn there used to be printed databooks before the internet.Not sure what that person thought happened before the internet....There was a short period there when CDs and later flash drives were in use but once internet became pretty universal those disappeared.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2023, 06:17:03 pm
content: Quote from: PwrElectronics on March 15, 2023, 04:02:07 pmReminds me of this supposed dialog (I’ve seen screenshots but can’t vouch it’s real):Youngster: How did people navigate before Google Maps?Oldster: We used maps.Youngster: [rolls eyes] I saidbeforeGoogle Maps.I am just barely young enough to remember buying paper road atlases to put in the car when I first started driving. But even so, by that time, Mapquest had already been out for a couple of years. I remember printing directions for road trips. And then the iPhone came out and I don’t think I ever used a paper map again, be it purchased or printed at home. :/

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2023, 06:33:32 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on March 15, 2023, 06:17:03 pmMapquest was revolutionary, I drove for several years before it was a thing and driving in unfamiliar territory was always stressful, my sense of direction has never been very good. GPS further revolutionized navigation but I had driven for close to a decade before I had one of those.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2023, 08:45:04 pm
content: Maybe you can ask ChatGPT?

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2023, 07:49:23 am
content: Quote from: james_s on March 15, 2023, 06:33:32 pmI’ve never been a nervous/stressed driver (which I attribute in part to not rushing to get a DL like most American kids, but rather waiting until I just felt ready; in the meantime I learned navigation and traffic by bike), but all the same Mapquest was awesome for trips outside of my usual stomping grounds.I’ve never owned a GPS outside of my phone, though!What’s amusing is that nowadays, when I am visiting back home in USA, I often use GPS even for local trips — but not because I don’t know how to get there, but because of the ability to route around traffic snarls! (I practically never drive here in Switzerland, where the public transit is magnificent.)

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2023, 05:11:10 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on March 16, 2023, 07:49:23 amI didn't rush to get a license either, but it was still stressful when I didn't really know where I was going. I never ventured very far from home prior to having a car, and when I did ride with someone else that was driving I didn't really pay attention to where we were going. Once I had mapquest and later GPS I took some road trips adventuring throughout much of Western Canada, that was fun.

author: Scrts
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2023, 06:24:00 pm
content: Quote from: MathWizard on March 14, 2023, 05:12:48 amPlease show me an engineer thatlikesto write documentation, especially datasheets? Nobody wants to do it

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2023, 08:32:09 pm
content: Quote from: Scrts on March 16, 2023, 06:24:00 pmQuite right. We almost all hate having to do that.But for me personally, the hardest part is to get going. It's a motivation thing. Once I've started writing documentation and the momentum is there, I'll do it and may even - moderately - enjoy it.What I don't "understand" is doing it half-baked. Like : "OK, you want me to do it, I'll do it. But you'll get a pile of shit."I tend to enjoy the end result of nicely written documentation.But yeah, it's always really hard to get started.

author: schmitt trigger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2023, 08:49:19 pm
content: Quote from: Scrts on March 16, 2023, 06:24:00 pmEngineering hell must be working with a never-correct document, which is always rejected by QC for trivial grammatical errors, decimal point placements, or simply because the graphics are confusing.And I know, I know. A decimal point used in the wrong parameter, is what separates a functional board from a full blown fire drill.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2023, 08:51:09 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on March 16, 2023, 08:32:09 pmI'm exactly the same way. I'll stare at my computer for an hour trying to get started and get nowhere, then once I figure out how to start it just takes off.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2023, 08:52:31 pm
content: Quote from: schmitt trigger on March 16, 2023, 08:49:19 pmYou mean I was supposed to feed 100 millivolts to that point and not 100 megavolts? No wonder.

author: Infraviolet
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2023, 09:34:58 pm
content: Might alos have something to do with people finding old fashioned looking formatting more "trustworthy", because they know nobody from marketing would ever dare put out material that looked like that. Although this reason isn't enough to excuse purely balck and white (no greyscale) scans so bad that you can't correctly read decimal points and all images consist of black lumps next to white lumps with no detail visible on either.

author: schmitt trigger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2023, 10:52:41 pm
content: James_s; I was thinking more along the lines of making a 100 Mhz LC resonant circuit, using a 1F super-capacitor