Are all breadboards equal or are there good and bad ones? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / beginners

author: Robert Smith Eco Warrior
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 04, 2021, 09:10:10 am
content: Hi All,Everyone seems to have a breadboard or several. Usually white with some black and red lines to indicate some connected tracks.... but no makers names. Are they all churned out of the same chinese factory?I have had to chase down a number of errors while making up circuits on my breadboard, often it is just bad connections which make me wonder if there are good or bad ones or are they all the same?

author: Black Phoenix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 04, 2021, 09:15:36 am
content: The ones that I see always being recommended are the 3M ones. But they are expensive.

author: Ian.M
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 04, 2021, 09:27:06 am
content: There are a very few high quality brands of breadboard, a lot of mediocre ones and a vast pile of lowest bidder 'china export' grade crap.Variants of this question come up regularly here.Google this forum for:breadboard quality contact resistancewhich should find most of the relevant topics.

author: Johnny10
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 04, 2021, 10:52:28 am
content: I took apart a Global Specialties PB-60 Breadboard.As you can see it is a quality board with metal inserts.They are mounted on a transparent plastic sheet.Expensive compared to Chinese.

author: Ian.M
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 04, 2021, 10:57:30 am
content: All breadboards have metal contacts. The difference is whether they are made from soft or brittle recycled mystery metal, or from good quality nickel or silver plated spring temper phosphor bronze.Also the exact shape the contacts are formed to is critical - see:

author: mindcrime
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 04, 2021, 01:53:07 pm
content: There are definitely differences in quality. Somebody on Youtube did a good comparison once, and I seem to recall that the Jameco Valuepro brand breadboards came out really well in the comparison.I think this is the video I am thinking about:

author: Peabody
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 04, 2021, 02:33:25 pm
content: I've used the BusBoard Prototype boards recommended in that last video, and they work quite well. Not too expensive.https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0040Z4QN8I actually bought mine from Arrow. The distributors are listed here:http://www.busboard.com/distributorsYou might get lucky with the cheap ones from Ebay, etc., but it's really not worth taking a chance. This is one of those things that you just have to get right, even at high cost. A flaky breadboard will make your life miserable. It's funny - if you tried to design a breadboard that made contact intermittently, you'd have trouble doing that. I mean - it's just metal contacts. But the Ebay guys have managed to do it. Apparently it's a combination of the design of the contacts and the metal use, but you can push two wires into the same row on the bad boards, and get no continuity at all. It's just amazing.

author: wizard69
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 04, 2021, 09:03:57 pm
content: I have to agree with everybody else that has responded, quality varies widely and in some cases the product is useless. Unfortunately this is something I learned the hard way. I don't know of a quality Chinese made unit at this point, there might be one out there but I'm not willing to test any more.By the way the 3M marketed boards have a good reputation. However it is rumored that they actually source their boards from:http://www.assemblyspecialist.com/so if you want high quality they might be the best option.Quote from: Robert Smith Eco Warrior on May 04, 2021, 09:10:10 amOn the flip side breadboards have a range of proper wire sizes they can make use of. So there is a user element here that impacts reliability. The manufacture should specify the acceptable range of wire sizes to be used on the breadboard. It is a real good idea to have a large collection of solid wire of the proper gauge. On the cheaper boards I've found them to be very size sensitive with respect to wire diameter (or maybe the boards are cheap and the spring elements already shot).

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 04, 2021, 09:06:42 pm
content: There is a huge difference in quality, and it can make or break your project, the difference between success and endless frustration. The cheap ones often make poor contact with component leads and they tend to wear out quickly. A good quality breadboard such as 3M will last decades if you don't abuse it.

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 04, 2021, 09:16:46 pm
content: Learn the art of 'Manhattan' style prototyping as quickly as possible. Not only is a sheet of copperclad cheaper, but the results are far more reliable.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 04, 2021, 09:31:27 pm
content: Quote from: Gyro on May 04, 2021, 09:16:46 pmI do that frequently, but it's no substitute for a solderless breadboard. It would be stupid to break out the soldering iron if all I wanted to do was wire up a few components to a microcontroller or something. Unless one has extreme tunnel vision there is no one size fits all approach. If you still insist that breadboards don't work then you either haven't used a good one or haven't used it properly.

author: Doctorandus_P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 04, 2021, 09:33:28 pm
content: Something also worth considering, is that if you give a reasonable quality breadboard to an idiot he will find a way to destroy it.Never underestimate the ingenuity of a true idiot!A definite no-no is to use wired resistors, pull them out of the tape they come in and the put them in a breadboard.The wire ends will have glue residue and this will get collected inside the breadboard connectors over time.So always cut the wires of resistors. This can be done with regular scissors. When the wires are shorter, they are also much more stable in the breadboard. Best is to have wire ends that are about 10mm long.

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2021, 10:46:01 am
content: Quote from: james_s on May 04, 2021, 09:31:27 pmNo it's ok, don't hold back, I know you must feel strain of having to write so many replies every day(even if you duplicate previous ones)*. I have never "still insisted" anything about breadboards.I merely suggested that the OP learn the Manhattan method, it is a viable prototyping method that many beginners don't know about (thisisthe beginners section). Maybe I should have added 'in many cases'.Edit:*Sorry, argumentative.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2021, 11:28:45 am
content: Quote from: Gyro on May 04, 2021, 09:16:46 pmPrecisely. Spot on.Solderless breadboards are the work of he devil; you will spend more time debugging the breadboard than debugging your circuit.FFI, including alternatives to manhattan, see the references inhttps://entertaininghacks.wordpress.com/2020/07/22/prototyping-circuits-easy-cheap-fast-reliable-techniques/

author: rdl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2021, 02:05:32 pm
content: If you buy a name brand and not some cheap crap from ebay or ali you'll be fine. The company that actually makes the 3M boards was selling direct for a lower price. Don't know if they still do or if the price is still low.Use the search function here and search entire forum for 3M solderless. There's a lot of relevant threads.

author: drussell
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2021, 03:25:57 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on May 04, 2021, 09:31:27 pmPrecisely!Experimenting and building a one-off or a prototypeare two different things! Soldering stuff to a copper board is not the same thing as being able to plug in and out random components to rows of sockets, especially if you're working with rows of ICs or something.Breadboardsabsolutelyhave their place and using decent quality ones makes all the difference to the experience. The OP asked about the variable quality of solderless breadboards (of which there is ahugevariation), not tangential methods to avoid using shoddy breadboards or advice regarding having bad connection problems or whatnot...

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2021, 04:09:42 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on May 04, 2021, 09:31:27 pmBreadboards are primarily used by beginners. By definition, they don't really understand the circuit they are building and have neither the knowledge nor experience to use them "properly" (whatever thatmeans). Hence when (not if) something doesn't work, they can't begin to debug their circuit. Frustration abounds and they become disheartened.OTOH, those with sufficient knowledge and experience usually don't need to go through a "fiddle until it works" process on a breadboard. my definition of "properly" is "not at all".

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2021, 04:13:20 pm
content: Quote from: drussell on May 05, 2021, 03:25:57 pmIreallydidn't mean my reply to turn this into some kind of breadboard - non breadboard holy war! I was just suggesting an alternative technique that the OP is probably not be familiar with. Looking at his posting history it has mostly been solar stuff, some Arduino and a little 'how to solder smd ICs. Can we just leave it at that!I don't use breadboards myself - well ok, I have a little one that I occasionally plug a module or dip IC into for quick test. It has a variety of insertion pressures depending on which holes I use. Even something like an Arduino Nano takes up a lot of real estate.My only thoughts on them are:1. When you get your circuit nicely working, you then have to dismantle it an build it in some other form, hopefully, having a correct schematic first... and of course you have to find a bodge for anything only available in smd [EDIT: or big].2. All breadboards become unreliable, even the best. It's only a matter of time, purchase price and care of use. Some start off that way, the expensive ones may have a decent life if treated very carefully (lead diameter and contaminants). Ultimately you will start debugging intermittent connections rather than circuits on a hole by hole basis. If you're really lucky you realise that you need to write it off it before that happens.It seems that the OP is already suffering from that.I guess myrelevantadvice to the OP in that case is, buy an expensive one, treat it with great care, [and know when to bin it].Hah, now I actually have to analyse it, Idohave an opinion on them, I'd never thought about it that deeply.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2021, 07:50:16 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on May 05, 2021, 04:09:42 pmWell, when all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail. You don't have a use for breadboards, good for you. I'm glad that your vastly superior knowledge allows you to design circuits that work without any fiddling. For the rest of us there are breadboards and they serve a purpose, they are yet another tool in the toolbox, and the fact that you see no value in them and don't think anyone else should either just sounds very elitist. There are times when I know exactly what I'm doing and jump straight to the prototype stage or even go directly to laying out a PCB but there are a lot of other times when I just want to try something quick, like connect some stuff to a microcontroller and whip up a proof of concept or test out some novel part to see if it will do what I want. There's no point in soldering together a prototype if I'm only going to use it briefly. Like I said, I'm well experienced with Manhattan construction and have used it for years, but that also is another tool in the toolbox, I have multiple tools and choose the one best suited to a particular job. I am not stuck on one specific technique and having used breadboards for over 30 years I've somehow never had any of the problems that apparently make them completely unsuitable in the eyes of some. I don't know why some people are apparently unable to make them work but since they work fine for me that kind of points at something they're doing wrong, not something that is wrong with the concept.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2021, 08:25:23 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on May 05, 2021, 07:50:16 pmNone of that addresses the points that beginners usually end up having with theirhammersolderless breadboards.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2021, 12:38:14 am
content: Quote from: wizard69 on May 04, 2021, 09:03:57 pmNot rumored, confirmed.It was me who figured out it was them, and someone else on the forums reached out to themand they confirmed it.Alas, around a year ago they increased their prices a lot, around double what they used to be. Still cheaper than 3M, but not by nearly the huge margin it used to be. I guess that gravy train has sailed…Quote from: tggzzz on May 05, 2021, 11:28:45 amLike flies to a plate of food, it was only a matter of time before the anti-breadboard brigade would show up with their tired old schtick, as they doevery… single… time…the word "breadboard" appears in a thread title.They stubbornly and arrogantly refuse to evenconsiderthe possibility of breadboards having uses, despite the fact that millions of people use them gainfully.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2021, 12:40:46 am
content: Quote from: tggzzz on May 05, 2021, 08:25:23 pmOf which there is no widespreadevidence. Your opinions and anecdotes do not data make. As we've discussed ad infinitum in other threads, there's also the fact thatknowing the limitations of your toolsis a critical part of learning electronics.

author: Dabbot
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2021, 01:51:06 am
content: Quote from: mindcrime on May 04, 2021, 01:53:07 pmThe Jameco Valuepro breadboards are Wisher re-brands, which are an excellent cheap alternative to 3M breadboards.

author: MikeK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2021, 12:22:08 pm
content: Quote from: Dabbot on May 06, 2021, 01:51:06 amYep. And Radio Shack (in the U.S.) carried them. Still do?...Dunno. All of my boards are the Wisher ones from Radio Shack or Jameco. A please to use. I've tried cheap $5 boards and they're just awful...total waste of money.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2021, 12:42:15 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on May 06, 2021, 12:40:46 amThere is plenty of evidence in the form of who doesn't and won't use them, and why.You have (again) missed a key point, even though you mention a allied point that doesn't affect your contention. Arguablymoreimportant than the limitations of the tools is the limitations of the tools'user!No matter how good/bad a tool, it is likely to be poorly and/or inappropriately used by a beginner.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2021, 01:27:51 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on May 06, 2021, 12:42:15 pmSo… anecdotes, not data.Quote from: tggzzz on May 06, 2021, 12:42:15 pmYes, and that’s part of the learning process, a process you invariably ignore. You just expect everyone tobeexperienced from the get-go.Nobody has ever suggested that a breadboard is the right tool to test out a USB-C circuit or a microwave radio circuit. But it just boggles the mind that you can’t wrap your head around the idea that beginners use breadboards to quickly lash up simple circuits, starting with things like LEDs and 555 timers, then op amps and such, and then maybe some logic ICs or a simple MCU. Nothing complex, nothing particularly demanding. For quickly experimenting, it’s a great solution that allows for quick learning by doing. It’s decidedly better than what a lot of absolute beginners do when they don’t have breadboards, namely to use alligator clips or twist wires together and “secure” it with masking tape.

author: SuzyC
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2021, 01:43:11 pm
content: What I really like with some breadboards sold(which I think are indispensable!) is that some have the breadboards mounted on an aluminum baseplate. This allows me to drill holes and mount voltage regulators, toggle switches, and even power-switching MOSFETs so directly close to the circuit and with heatsinking when needed.The metal base also functions as place to drill holes to bind large cables, mount small motors, and very importantly, the metal baseplate gives shielding to sensitive circuits.

author: SuzyC
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2021, 01:52:51 pm
content: Contrary to some elitist posters on this subject, I have been able to successively breadboard RF circuitry, Xmit and Receive in the 100's of MHZ as well as sensitive microvolt-level amplifiers, complex multi-logic MCU circuits and even high-current power supplies, USB circuits, etc.All it takes is a little ingenuity, and sometimes maybe a flying groundplane mounted on the edges of the board, sometimes stuff like micro-coax pt to pt, making PCB modules that become breadboard insertables, etc.Its a poor craftsman that {hates},{blames} the likely best tool ever devised for prototype development or experimentation.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2021, 02:05:18 pm
content: Quote from: SuzyC on May 06, 2021, 01:52:51 pmI have breadboarded many such things over more decades than I care to admit - and they often workedreliablyfirst time. But not onsolderlessbreadboards. The alternative techniques (including but not limited to Manhattan) are cheap, easy and reliable, so why use an inferior technique?There's no doubt an experienced person will have enough skill and knowledge to work out whether a bug is in their circuit or the solderless construction(if they ever used it).But if you know enough to fabricate a flying ground plane, clearly you are not a beginner!

author: drussell
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2021, 02:17:52 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on May 06, 2021, 01:27:51 pmThe othermajoradvantage, especially for the beginner who doesn't have a whole horde of parts and components, is it allows easy experimentation using the same components over and over again until they go into a permanent project. The idea of using things like ICs over and over again by soldering and desoldering them, especially for a beginner seems like lunacy.Being able to unplug a few chips and re-use them multiple times without getting solder on the pins or frying them from excessive solder heat seems like a good idea. It certainly always has been for me1As for being annoying to transfer to a more permanent form after building a working prototype on a breadboard, I've actually always found it very easy to transfer a working breadboard design onto inexpensive proto-boards that use the same type of layout, like these:I've used hundreds of those things and like to keep about a dozen on hand at any time for many different kinds of projects and one-offs. A beginner can relatively easily build something up on breadboard, then once your circuit works properly, you can basically just copy (when you have extras of simple things like resistors, etc) or transfer it piece by piece to the proto-board and solder it up.Using sockets for where ICs are on your prototype and then building the wiring around it, soldering in any passives, etc. then popping the chips out of your working breadboard prototype and sticking them into your soldered prototype allows you to go back and forth for experimentation if you wish to modify your design or something, retaining the breadboard version in essentially working form, at least until you have the soldered version working to your satisfaction.This was extremely useful, especially back in the days of building "large" digital circuits with 7400 or CMOS logic when we didn't all have a zillion extras of every chip, (especially since they often weren't cheap!) so we couldn't just useanotherone, wehadto move the few components we had from the breadboard phase to the soldered prototype / final project.While the components may be less expensive today, most beginners still don't have a giant parts stash from which to draw endless parts. Being able toeasilyre-use the same components over and over is a big bonus, especially for the beginner. (Or, at least it certainly was for me! YMMV)

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2021, 02:42:20 pm
content: Quote from: drussell on May 06, 2021, 02:17:52 pmMe too; I agree. Where it is beneficial to avoid soldering to IC leads (which are fragile!), I solder a socket and put the IC in that.QuoteIf it works, why rebuild it? Faster, better, and simpler to get it working using a reliable technique - then leave it alone and move onto the next thing.Rebuilding something is soul destroying!QuoteIt is no more difficult to make a soldered rats nest, and soldering is a technique that everybody needs sooner rather than later. So practice soldering when doing Manhattan (or similar) construction.QuoteExcept where it has worked because of excess (and variable) resistance, or inductance, or capacitance.QuoteI remember those days, and still have many such ICs.I also know the edge rates were very slow (10ns was normal), whereas modern jellybean logic is >30 times faster.QuoteI started by desoldering transistors and other components from circuits boards. I couldn't afford new components, even if they had been easily available.

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2021, 06:16:49 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on May 06, 2021, 02:42:20 pmThat's a tricky one where the balance probably shifts over time. If I couldn't use my parts bin of salvaged / reused / short legged components (axial Tants and Polystyrenes for instance), I'd be forever having to wait for deliveries and agonizing about waiting to hit a free delivery thresholds. I need spontaneity to keep me interested and not organised enough to create BOMs for idea try-outs.It's probably different for beginners, although salvage is still a very valid way of obtaining expensive-to-buy parts - my days of salvaging resistors is well past (unless they're something special).

author: wizard69
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 07, 2021, 11:41:11 pm
content: People often feel the same way about IC sockets on production PCB, but yet there are at times good reasons to use sockets. I don't look at breadboards as being good or bad, they just solve one issue that people may have when bringing up some electronics.Vero boards or other similarly pre etched boards, can also fulfill a role similar to a breadboard. However they have their own issues. What I find frustrating is the lack of solutions for the use of SMD's which really don't have similar route to prototyping.I will be the first to admit that I have had some really frustrating experiences with breadboards. However I would not dismiss such out of hand. In some cases they are the best way to explore concepts in electronic design or figure out something you don't understand.Quote from: Gyro on May 05, 2021, 04:13:20 pm

author: wizard69
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 07, 2021, 11:47:50 pm
content: The concept is a good one. What I'm tying to get across, with respect to the original posters question, is that there are a lot of really bad breadboards on the market. I don't mean worn out but breadboards that where worthless right out of the box.Go out an buy a decent one and you will have a much better relationship with that breadboard than a cheap half baked example of a breadboard. In this regard I hope the original poster does so and doesn't end up with a cheap breadboard stuck in the wall or bouncing off the floor.Quote from: james_s on May 05, 2021, 07:50:16 pm

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 08, 2021, 08:15:16 am
content: Quote from: wizard69 on May 07, 2021, 11:41:11 pmI'm not a great fan of veroboards; they work and are reliable, but the layout always seems to be more painful than I feel it ought to be.SMD prototyping solutions and techniques exist and work reasonably well. See some examples at the end ofhttps://entertaininghacks.wordpress.com/2020/07/22/prototyping-circuits-easy-cheap-fast-reliable-techniques/

author: Jan Audio
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2021, 02:30:59 pm
content: I make a small section on my breadboard, solder it, use pin headers, and plug it back in the breadboard to make free space.This can go on untill the breadboard is full with cards, it makes the bad things go away.For fast logic it is always bad, like serial information, anything digital accurate with fast timing.With long wait times, or slow clocks it still works, i dont know whats the frequency where things go unstable, intresting.*no time to go find out, 31250 Hz for MIDI signals always works fine on a breadboard.Just dont use regulators on your breadboard, its not safe.

author: GlennSprigg
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2021, 03:02:29 pm
content: Hmmm... I don't think that 'anyone' here would suggest that the likes of 'NASA' would be relying on a 'cheap' breadboard, when designingLife-Criticalandmulti-billiondollar projects, for ALL the obvious reasons, that one would not need to be a 'rocket-scientist' to understand...However, for the Averagehome hobbyist, trialing a few circuits for fun, is a WHOLE new proverbial 'Kettle-Of-Fish' !!!OK, at least most such 'projects' are relatively simple, and if it doesn't initially work as expected, I would 'assume' that one would first checktheir Schematic, component pin-outs, and rails/jumpers used... and failing that, would at least try 'jiggling' a few wires/connections etc, to ensurethat there weren't any suspect joints! All done without loss of life, loss of business, or a heavily deprecated bank account!! It's 'Horses-For-Courses'!!Does a 'beginner/learner' use Gold Plated connectors, and H.F. shielding etc etc when 'playing' with timers, LED's or 7-segment counter? etc etc...No. But back in my 'Breadboard' days, I REALLY can't recall many, if any, actual 'board' failures?? Maybe I was 'lucky'. But 'Lives' were not dependent...

author: Ian.M
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2021, 03:04:10 pm
content: The trick to using fixed voltage three terminal regulators on a breadboard safely, is to attach an extra ground lead directly to the regulator so that the circuit back to the power source is completed through the breadboard to ground lead contact. That way, when the ground contact gets wobbled and momentarily goes open circuit, instead of the output voltage soaring to near Vin and frying your circuit, it drops out with no damage. On LM78xx type regulators in TO-220 packages, that's dead easy as the tab is ground so you can simply bolt the PSU ground wire to it. Also, if its going to dissipate more than a few hundred milliwatts, for %DEITY%'s sake heatsink it so it doesn't melt a hole in your breadboard!I miss the days of breadboard manufacturers selling spare contact strips so you could maintain them!https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/breadboard-maintenance-tips/

author: wizard69
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2021, 10:45:33 pm
content: This highlights why one should take power supplies seriously and not dismiss them. I understand why people want to get onto the "fun" things but not understanding power can really complicate things. A DIY power supply should be a first project for anybody serious about learning electronics.This is one reason why I always liked bread board stations that incorporated power supplies or at least binding posts. Any approach that makes your power connections more reliable is a good move when working with breadboards.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 10, 2021, 12:14:41 am
content: Quote from: Ian.M on May 09, 2021, 03:04:10 pmThat kind of consideration also applies to the power supply to individual ICs. If an input voltage is outside the power supply range, "strange" (and sometimes permanent) effects occur.Given the speed, ease, cheapeness, and learning soldering associated with other methods (especially rats nest and manhattan), are solderless breadboards worth the risk of losing time and a beginner becoming disilusioned?

author: ezalys
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 10, 2021, 03:16:31 am
content: I’m sorta of the feeling that any circuit that would work properly on a solderless breadboard is likely a bit boring. Manhattan all the way!

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 10, 2021, 08:02:07 am
content: Quote from: ezalys on May 10, 2021, 03:16:31 amI certainly agree with the conclusion (but would add rats nest!), but not for those reasons.For a beginner, every circuit is interesting, no matter how simple.Circuits on solderless breadboards can and do work -but not reliablysince there are too many invisible subtle failure mechanisms. Beginners have enough difficulty figuring out why their design isn't working; add in intermittent construction faults and they rapidly get lost.

author: Robert Smith Eco Warrior
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 10, 2021, 08:58:29 am
content: Quote from: tggzzz on May 10, 2021, 08:02:07 amMy son and I made a simple 20 LED tracer (knight rider) thing using three HEF4017 ic's and an AND gate ic. It wasn't working for a while and with the breadboard gremlins it took a bit of time to figure out the AND gate ic had failed with it's outputs always high. It was an ic from a box of ic's from when i was about 14, so about 1987 so it's history has been long forgotten and I probably somehow blew it up 30 odd years ago. By the time I had replaced the AND gate ic with four transistors and a few resistors my son had wandered off from boredom, so I think a decent breadboard would be a good investment to make learning more fun.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 10, 2021, 09:35:38 am
content: Such demoralisation isn't rare in my experience. Using a soldering iron is fun in itself, a useful skill, and is less likely to have problematic connections than solderless breadboards.CMOS is prone to destructive latchup if an external voltage exceeds the PSU voltage. Perhaps a faulty Vss/Vdd connection allowed that to happen. An old IC probably had dirty pins, which wouldn't have lowered that possibility.

author: ezalys
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 10, 2021, 10:48:47 am
content: Come to think of it, I learned on a breadboard. I should drop the elitist attitude

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 10, 2021, 12:27:08 pm
content: I had a fair amount of experience with 3M boards in the 80s and don't remember having any major problems with them. I wish I had taken pictures of some of the construction. Pure artwork.I still experiment using breadboards today. Recently I have been using one to simulate simple distribution networks while I work on the software. In the following data, you can see where this particular setup has a resonance around 70MHz due to the breadboard. While I don't recommend trying to use a breadboard for low noise, high speed designs, for quick experiments you may find them useful. I recommend staying with the name brands.https://www.eevblog.com/forum/rf-microwave/nanovna-custom-software/msg3558532/#msg3558532

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 10, 2021, 01:48:49 pm
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on May 10, 2021, 12:27:08 pmWith experience and skill, much more is possible (see my .SIG!) Beginners have neither.A 74LVC1Gxx clocked at 1kHz can drive 50ohm line and it will have significant energy above 1GHz. Beginners don't understand that clock rate is irrelevant; only the transition time matters.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 10, 2021, 04:26:02 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on May 10, 2021, 12:14:41 amThose methods sharenoneof the speed, ease, and cheapness of a breadboard. If you claim you can solder up an ICfasterthan you can plug it and some jumpers into a breadboard, you’re lying, plain and simple.Quote from: tggzzz on May 10, 2021, 12:14:41 amYes, emphatically!As I’ve told you before: you have no clue what a true beginner is, nor the joy that comes from being able to just experiment. Soldering inno wayprovides that immediacy anddesirableimpermanence. (There’s a reason Lego is way, way more popular than mecano: tearing down and modifying is super easy. The fragility of a Lego build is not an issue for its primary purpose.)Nor do I think a beginner is going to become disillusioned with electronics as easily as you think.(Not to mention that you conveniently ignore that soldered circuits can also be wrong, and it’s much harder to fix.)

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 10, 2021, 04:59:37 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on May 10, 2021, 04:26:02 pmOooh! A classic case of cherry-picking - as you ought to realise.Nobody wants to do only what you have described - theyalsowant to get the circuit working, and that's where the problems lie.QuoteNow you are just being arrogant and ignorant. You know very little about me and my experiences, and have apparently ignored what I have mentioned in the past.QuoteI disagree.If a technique isperceivedto beslightlyslower, then it has the added benefit of encouraging people tothinkandunderstandbefore making a semi-random change.The satisfaction that comes from understanding, predicting, and making something work ismuchgreater than that of fiddling until something (appears to) work. Far too much industrial software is little more than that such ignorant twiddling, and the results are unpleasant.QuoteRobert Smith gave just such an anecdote above. I've witnessed others.QuoteThat depends on the construction technique; rats nest is very fast to change.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 10, 2021, 10:01:29 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on May 10, 2021, 04:59:37 pmYour aggressive, myopic arrogance is quite remarkable. It just boggles the mind how you are just completely and utterly incapable (or unwilling) of seeing the value solderless breadboards have. Nobody says they’re perfect, nor suitable for every situation, but one has to be stupid and/or delusional to be incapable of seeing what theyaregood for.As for me “not knowing” your background: no, I don’t know your back story. But my observations don’t require that, as your ongoing statements clearly lay bare that you do not understand the learning process.Not to mention the frustration at the fact that you ruinevery single fucking threadabout breadboards with your toxic attitude.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 10, 2021, 11:32:11 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on May 10, 2021, 10:01:29 pmThat's a good example of "the pot calling the kettle black", or "mirror"Others may note that I addressed your specific points, whereas you haven't addressed mine and have resorted to ad-hominem attacks. Unimpressive.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 11, 2021, 12:06:26 am
content: Quote from: ezalys on May 10, 2021, 10:48:47 amI suspect most of us used them as part of our classes. Even in those early days, I can't remember the boards posing much of a problem for the analog or digital circuits we built. Some of the projects required a few these these boards to fit it all on. I would imagine most of my problems were a result of incorrect wiring and mistakes in the designs we were assigned. Once you completed the task, it was quick to pull apart, save the wires, and start all over again. Fun times. I wonder if they are still standard practice in the beginner courses.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 11, 2021, 09:51:25 am
content: Quote from: tggzzz on May 10, 2021, 11:32:11 pmNope, it’s just that I have attempted point-by-point replies to you in multiple prior threads, and it was a complete waste of time. There is zero point in me taking the time to address each point again if you’re just going to remain dense on the issue. You are in a tiny minority of people claiming to have serious problems with breadboards, and you always have an “answer” for every point people explain to you, never actuallylisteningto what people are saying. (Hence “answer” in quotes: you don’t actually address the points people make, you just have excuses for dismissing them. Or you just refuse the statement altogether and repeat your opposite viewpoint, even when it’s patently impossible, like claiming that soldering is just as fast as breadboarding, which is objectively untrue.)Ultimately, you consistently have a bunch of people telling you to stop with the anti-breadboard crusade, and a much, much smaller number of people who agree with you. It’s just annoying, frustrating, and unproductive that you derailevery single damned threadabout breadboards with your alarmist, elitist, unrealistic nonsense. Why can’t you just accept that breadboards aren’t your cup of tea, butdoserve a purpose for lots of people, and actually do that job well? Why do you have to piss in everyone’s Cheerios every time?

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 11, 2021, 09:59:17 am
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on May 11, 2021, 12:06:26 amI work at a vocational training center, where dozens and dozens of first and second year electronics apprentices come for hands-on classes every year. Yes, breadboards are still how it’s done.Having them solder (and desolder) each circuit would slow things downimmenselyand increase costs, since soldering and desoldering (especially when done by absolute newbies) is much harder on components, so we’d have much higher parts waste.

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 11, 2021, 12:40:48 pm
content: If you have that many breadboards in heavy constant use, it would be helpful to know which make / range you use (unless I already missed it!).Edit: Ah, still Assembly Specialists?

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 11, 2021, 12:47:33 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on May 11, 2021, 09:59:17 amI spoke with a friend who's much younger and confirmed their college used them as well. Still, it's been a while since they attended. I had a teacher who would make us use Nand gates for everything. I couldn't imagine a student soldering up some of those circuits just to have to pull them back apart for the next assignment.No student wants to keep their stop light FSM or display decoder forever. You may have more than one breadboard to cover both your analog and digital classes.I had a teacher who loved Nand gates so we started out using 7400s and kHz clocks. Setup and hold, termination, prop delays, what's that? In analog classes, 1/f noise, sorry you lost me.Imagine 50 kids all trying to construct their first DFF from Nand gates and have them working in a half hour. Sounds simple enough.QuoteYou may want to make use of the ignore list if you are finding a trend. I find it helps curb my responses and makes the admins duties easier.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 11, 2021, 05:00:08 pm
content: Quote from: Gyro on May 11, 2021, 12:40:48 pmThey’re 3M branded ones that have been in use for many, many years, long before I started working there.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 11, 2021, 11:30:14 pm
content: It sounds like the school loans used boards to the students for their assignments. We had to buy our own lab supplies (from the school) like books. I am sure more than one of my class mates, including myself, melted their breadboards. When you're leaning the basics, expect mistakes.

author: GlennSprigg
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 14, 2021, 11:15:29 am
content: Just forfun, I thought I would throw in an old type of experimental board, that I 1st had when I was 10, 56 years ago... SomethingLIKEthis...They hadcoiled springsas connectors, that you push/bend to one side to trap wires & component leads under. Some had actual componentsalready connected under the 'board' to them, and also had many blank ones, that virtually made a 'breadboard'. Connections were very fast,and securely held under constant pressure! And probably easier than today's 'breadboard', as their was no confusion about where the under-board 'rails' are, and you could throw 3, 4 or more component leads under 1 spring!! Obviously these days, to use 4, 8 etc pin IC's, you wouldpre-make a group of springs connected to IC sockets.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 14, 2021, 01:25:32 pm
content: Quote from: GlennSprigg on May 14, 2021, 11:15:29 amI had something very similar, a Philips EE20 set. I still have a few of the springs and clips and transistors. They All had such a low ft and the spacing was so large that parasitics wouldn'tbe an issue. I also threw out some of the horrible Mullard mustard capacitors; I didn't realise how much audiophools were willing to pay for them !Iought to have the instruction book somewhere; if not there is a scan on the web

author: amishasingh
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 14, 2021, 01:28:07 pm
content: I generally use the long breadboard. There will be small breadboard also but as your project increase you can use it. Although the best company and quality breadboard is to be used as it is important and plays a critical role in the connections.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 14, 2021, 11:33:34 pm
content: Quote from: GlennSprigg on May 14, 2021, 11:15:29 amThey still sell those. But they’re not really a substitute for a breadboard, since breadboards exist to let you wire up any circuit, not just ones using a few predetermined components.I don’t find those spring-contact kits to be particularly easy to use, as the inability to move components results in really messy wiring. (I had such a kit as a kid, too!) IMHO if someone can’t wrap their heads around how a breadboard’s rails work, they’re simply not suited to doing electronics.