Recommending breadboard(solder-less board) - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / beginners

author: nour
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2017, 06:32:01 am
content: I have been using breadboard for development for a very long time but the one I am using is the cheap one from china, and I have decided to just throw them all away because they are very bad and after some time they no longer perform as they shouldThat's why I need some adviceFirst I have a question what is the range of price that a proper breadboard would fit into?I have seen prices that can reach up to almost 250$ for one piecehttps://www.digikey.com/products/en/prototyping-products/solderless-breadboards/638?FV=ffe0027e%2Cb85d0e%2Cb85d10%2Cb85d14%2Cb85d17%2Cb85d18%2Cb85d19%2Cb85d1b%2Cb8aa7e&mnonly=0&newproducts=0&ColumnSort=-1000011&page=1&stock=0&pbfree=0&rohs=0&quantity=&ptm=0&fid=0&pageSize=500]https://www.digikey.com/products/en/prototyping-products/solderless-breadboards/638?FV=ffe0027e%2Cb85d0e%2Cb85d10%2Cb85d14%2Cb85d17%2Cb85d18%2Cb85d19%2Cb85d1b%2Cb8aa7e&mnonly=0&newproducts=0&ColumnSort=-1000011&page=1&stock=0&pbfree=0&rohs=0&quantity=&ptm=0&fid=0&pageSize=500on the other hand, I have found on TME something around 6$ for standard sizehttp://www.tme.eu/en/katalog/universal-pcbs_100110/#id_category=100110&s_field=niski_prog&s_order=ASC&visible_params=2%2C11%2C138%2C219%2C329%2C413%2C1037%2C2181%2C2198%2C2335%2C2550%2C2550&used_params=2550%3A82440%3BI don't think I will go for the heigher price, so what do you think about the ones on the TME website?Also I have one more question, I usally see two types of breadboards one which is entirely white and one that is notand this oneImages are form digikeyWhat is the difference between them ?

author: den
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2017, 08:16:02 am
content: I have the one white board and I hate it.First of all, + and - rails are cut in the middle of the board (see the bigger gap between rails? - this is it). This should probably give you more flexibility (connecting to up to 4 different supplies), but in praxis you just need to install jumper wires there.Second thing - those nice blue and red lines. Small thing, but very handy, makes work with the board a lot easier, without them you will have to check where your + and - rails are over and over again.

author: not1xor1
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2017, 08:25:22 am
content: Quote from: nour on May 25, 2017, 06:32:01 amI bought them from TME several years ago and am quite satisfiedlater I bouth a couple of cheap no-brand breadboards from ebay that are just unusable with contact resistance in the order of ohmsnow I use them just as place holders to solder some partsI definitely suggest you to buy wisher breadboards from TME

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2017, 09:40:57 am
content: With solderless breadboards, the best way to get a known consistent quality is to "Widlarize" them. Then swap to using "Manhattan" or "dead-bug" techniques, like the professionals.Friends don't let friends use solderless breadboards, because they know they will spend longer debugging the breadboard and layout than they will debugging the circuit.

author: nour
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2017, 10:55:31 am
content: Quote from: tggzzz on May 25, 2017, 09:40:57 amBasically, you are saying they are useless and it is much better to not to work with them!I agree with you to some extent but there is a lot of simple circuits that is usually 10 times faster to build them on abreadboard, like for example a low-speed logic circuits.Quote from: not1xor1 on May 25, 2017, 08:25:22 amI guess I will do the same because I know there is a lot of times that I really want to have one or two aroundI actually have like 8 cheap Chinese but that's it, no more throwing money, I will buy it from TME.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2017, 01:04:50 pm
content: Quote from: nour on May 25, 2017, 10:55:31 amNo, I am saying solderless breadboards are worse than useless: they frequently introduce problems that needn't be there.QuoteIn this context there's no such thing as a "low speed logic circuit", unless you are using completely obsolete 4000 series CMOS or earlier. Don't forget the clock rate (or baud rate) is completely irrelevant; all that matters is the transition time.If you don't believe me, do a few back-of-the-envelope calculations. The induced voltage Vi is added/subtracted from your "wanted" voltage in the most inconvenient way. Vi = L di/dt, whereL is 1nH per millimetre of wiredt is the transition time; 10ns for old logic, 1ns and under for modern logicdi is estimated belowIf you have a resistive load, di is simply V/R; assume transmission lines are 100ohms. If you have a capacitive load (which you always do, even a logic gate input is 5pF), then use di = CV/dt where V is the voltage.Plug in reasonable values, and see the magnitude of the problems.Alternatively, calculate the resonant frequency of the wires and stray capacitance; the answer is often a problem. In my experience of helping many beginners. I now refuse to look at solderless breadboards, because it is a waste of my life to find high-resistance connections, or fight against the inductance of the hookup wires.

author: Ian.M
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2017, 01:42:24 pm
content: Unless you pay a premium for a leading western manufacturer's brand-named breadboards, from a major distributor capable of providing ISO 8492 tracibity, their quality or lack thereof is a total crapshoot.Seehttps://www.eevblog.com/forum/buysellwanted/what%27s-a-fair-price-for-breadboards/Whether or not its appropriate to use a breadboard depends on the frequency, impedances, voltages and currents. You are particularly likely to run into problems if there are any currents above a few hundred mA, voltages over 50V, DC resistances node to node or node to ground over 10 Meg, or has impedences greater than 400Meg/f where f is the frequency in Hz. Also you *WILL* get major problems if you allow your breadboards to get dusty or otherwise dirty, or have previously abused them and damaged the contacts.As Tggzzz points out, logic circuits can be problematic, but if you throw away those packs of crappy pre-made jumpers colour coded by length and use 22 to 24 AWG insulated solid tinned copper wire, cut to actual minimum required length with just enough slack for easy insertion, decouple each chip directly across its power pins, bulk decouple the rails, and tie multiple bus strips for the same rail together at both ends and possibly in the middle as well, you can usually avoid significant problems up to a few MHz if you avoid excessively fast and/or power-hungry logic families. As you go to higher frequencies, you are more likely to need to use appropriately terminated twisted pair for longer runs, and by the low tens of MHz solderless breadboarding tend to become worthless.

author: nour
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2017, 01:52:11 pm
content: Well, that was the kind of circuit I was talking about:https://youtu.be/HyznrdDSSGM?list=PLowKtXNTBypGqImE405J2565dvjafglHUlook at the size of the wiring that he have on those breadboards, if he can survive this, then sure I can, anyway, thanks, I agree with most of your points, thanks

author: Ian.M
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2017, 02:03:00 pm
content: You can get away with a lot in a breadboarded digital circuit if your maximum clock speed is only a few hundred Hz . . . . .

author: stj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2017, 02:10:06 pm
content: all breadboards have one problem,if you shove a large pin into them the contacts often get a bit damaged and wont work well afterwards on flat pins like i.c.'s3M i think, used to sell spare contact-strips to repair the breadboard after you damage it.

author: rdl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2017, 03:02:16 pm
content: 3M breadboards are high quality, but expensive to buy new. They work fine even up in the MHz range. The contacts grip tightly and do not get loose over time. I have heard Wisher makes good quality and also Global Specialties, but I have no personal experience with those. I have two purchased from Radio Shack in the 80s that appear to be re-branded AP Products/3M breadboards, but that is certainly not true for what they sold in recent years.There is no reason to avoid using breadboards. Just remember they are not all the same and keep in mind the possible limitations. Cheap products made to sell for the lowest possible price cannot be expected to work well or last long. A quality product sold for a fair price will usually work as expected and provide years of useful service.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2017, 03:03:54 pm
content: Quote from: nour on May 25, 2017, 01:52:11 pmMaybe, butdoesit survive?I'll bet whenever it is turned on after being "in storage", an unpredictable subset of the wires wiggling - possibly by "percussive maintenance".

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2017, 05:53:30 pm
content: I like to limit/eliminate the number of single/lone pins and jumpers in the board. To do this, I use breadboard as a wire wrap board. So instead of sticking 1 jumper into a hole, I put rows of pin headers in the board and wrap to the make the connections. That leaves none of the wiggle that a lone pin/jumper will have, which can loosen or change impedance when you touch it. Stick a section of 5 plus square header pins in a board and try to move it. It will tilt a little in only one direction (the direction that doesn't strain the connectors), and even that will take some force.If you want to, say, stick an LCD or any pcb adapter into the board, you can solder extra long pins in the PCB, so that it plugs into the board, physically. And you can also wrap directly to the pins sticking out the top of the pcb, rather than have to plug another row of header pins into the board, next to it.Your scope probes can clip to any of these pins. Rather than rigging up a (loose wiggly) adapter that sticks into the breadboard and requires having the space to do so.QuoteFor parts like T220 or large pots, I use pliers to twist all the leads 90 degrees. (The connectors in the board squeeze side to side, in one direction. Once you figure this out, the orientation is obvious. If you don't understand this, peel the back off a section and take a look at the nickel plated spring clips that plug into it from the bottom).For parts like 4A diodes, solder them to section of header pin, first.Essentially, most of the time it's a square header pin or an IC pin or a skinny component lead that goes in there. So far, I have had no problem switching from 0.025" header pin and IC pins, which measure at about 19 mil. If it looks too big or too small, put calipers on it. Don't stick things larger than 25 mil. (And beware the large, single lead/pin. It may measure 25 mil, but when it is twisted or wiggled side to side, it is flexing the connectors in the board!) You obviously want the board to continue to work with IC pins at 19 mil.Loose jumpers of 22-24 gauge might have lower resistance, but they will eventually cause problem when the number of connections gets high enough, IMO. For signals, the impedance of the wire, itself, is not the problem to begin with, in most circuits. If 4 mils trace on 1/2 oz pour is good enough, 30AWG wire is monstrous.+1 on Wish, Global, and 3M. I can't tell the difference between 3M and Global. They are both fine, in my book. Wish are a different color plastic that is more fully opaque. And the red and blue lines are reversed on the Wish (or is it Wisher?) boards. But they might have the strongest connectors inside.Beware some of the unique boards... if it doesn't look like the 3m style with the removeable bus strips, some of these don't even have the right spacing between the power rail and the main board. These need to be exactly 0.3" and 0.4" between the power and ground rails and the edge of the board so you can make reusable plug ins for the board. I had one from Rat Shack where the spacing was 0.35 and 0.25, or something akin to that. This doesn't work with vero/proto board, doh.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2017, 06:43:52 pm
content: That first link is pretty messed up. It should be something like:https://www.digikey.com/products/en/prototyping-products/solderless-breadboards/638The really expensive boards may have internal power supplies and are usually fairly large.

author: Audioguru
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2017, 07:24:57 pm
content: Why use a solderless breadboard with all its intermittent contacts, stray capacitance and wires all over the place?Design the circuit and solder it together. All my circuits, even very complicated ones worked perfectly the first time.My prototypes were made quickly by planning the parts layout and strips of copper on a stripboard. Cutting the copper strips with a drillbit then the strips are half a pcb and the parts and a few short jumpers are the other half. Everything is soldered so nothing is intermittent. The stripboards looked good enough and worked perfectly to be sold as the final products.

author: Daque
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2017, 08:36:01 pm
content: All the solderless breadboards I bought last year fail to give a reliable connection to the 1/4 w resistors and small monolithic caps. My old ones from a few years ago work ok. New ones include Sparkfun, Adafruit, and generic China ones from eBay.Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

author: scorched
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: May 25, 2017, 10:23:56 pm
content: I get my breadboards from MPJA. very reasonable prices, but not sure if its worth it with shipping from US to overseas.http://www.mpja.com/Solderless-Breadboards/products/283/

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2017, 10:45:03 pm
content: When you get a good breadboard, it can last forever if you take care of it. Reason I have experience with so many brands, is "just press harder" is hard to stop when you're in the middle of something. But having learned the hard way, I have my breadboards of choice and I take care of them. They are definitely not all the same.I'm pretty sure I have bought one from MPJA and could not tell the difference between it and Global/3M. I.e. it is good.@Audioguru... sometimes some of your parts are expensive and may even be just for debugging/dev. Say, LCD, or switch array, or pots.... which will be replaced with resistors. All the points where you might want to clip test equipment can be made by sticking header into the board. Sometimes the proto is not going to be suitable for the final project, even if it is a one-off. And many times it is useful to have a breadboard just for verifying one part of a circuit, due to some ambiguity of or unfamiliarity with a datasheet. And when used in the right way, none of your concerns need be an issue, aside from the bit of capacitance between strips. Most of my protos are eventually dismantled, and all the header pins can be put back in the jar... jumpers and most of the components discarded. The expensive pots and other stuff goes back to wherever I keep it.

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2017, 11:00:36 pm
content: I have been using Global Specialties breadboards for decades, likeEXP-350. They simply work well for me, I found them the best.The cheap chinese breadboards have hard plastic, poor connections, the plating is lousy- I spent more time wiggling poor connections than getting stuff done.The $ you save, you lose in troubleshooting basic connections.

author: Richard Crowley
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2017, 11:01:19 pm
content: Julian Ilet did an interesting review of breadboards, with a tear-down revealing the internal construction of a decent example vs. a piece of junk. Recommended....https://youtu.be/VerbEZtACwQ

author: nour
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2017, 01:33:18 am
content: Quote from: Richard Crowley on May 25, 2017, 11:01:19 pmI have seen this one, thanks

author: not1xor1
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2017, 05:05:47 am
content: Quote from: tggzzz on May 25, 2017, 09:40:57 amthere are a lot of cases where breadboards are a fine solutionrecently I used them to test voltage reference ICs I bought from ebay or to select the lowest offset opamp among the LT1013 I have herethere are many other circuitselectronics is not just high speed logicof course for high speed, high current, high voltage you have to use the solder and sometimes you can get along with a breadboard for part of the circuit while soldering or using connectors, clips, etc for the rest

author: rdl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2017, 06:43:06 am
content: I was experimenting today. Not too bad for a plastic breadboard. 4049 inverter oscillator running through a 74HC14. 12ns rise time. To be fair, it looked pretty bad until the 7414 was added, but just using the 7414 alone as the oscillator looked okay.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2017, 08:08:44 am
content: Quote from: not1xor1 on May 27, 2017, 05:05:47 amIn the cases where your circuit works as expected, that's fine (presuming it isn't working because of the parasitics). But, almost by definition, you use breadboards when you aren't sure your design will work.In such cases, when your circuit doesn't work as expected, is it because of the circuit, the breadboard or the parasitics? Too often, in my experience, it is because of the breadboard.

author: Gregg
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 28, 2017, 12:26:51 am
content: I recently purchased two of these 3M boardshttp://www.ebay.com/itm/191994779221The ones I received had the gold plated contacts although they don't have the 3M logo anywhere; I am very happy with my purchase. The seller does ship to your country.