At what price point do 3d printers transition from junk to something usable? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: e100
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 12, 2018, 06:27:59 am
content: Are sub $1000 printers even worth looking at, or do you spend more time fiddling with it than actually using it to make things?This is for one off prototype ideas so speed isn't an issue.Ideally it would consume ABS plastic filament, or some other plastic that can tolerate outdoor conditions.

author: Rerouter
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 12, 2018, 07:03:36 am
content: I went with the dirt cheap option, a geeetech G2S pro, 4 afternoons building the thing, 1 afternoon calibrating the thing, 1 weekend finding out the component tolerance on the rods and plate where not to my liking and reshaping / resizing, 1 afternoon of ripping out the springs, and fitting fixed spacers/ calibrating correctly, 2 afternoons to get the hang of cad and slicer settings, and now it "Just works"In other words if it came to me assembled with in tolerance components, it probably would have been 2 days to get going in full swing, still as an engineer i would not have come to know exactly what every part of that thing did work perfectly out of the box, so comes down to your goals,PLA is actually a very good plastic for outdoors, and holds tolerance far better than ABS which likes the shrink / expand over temperature cycles, just use carbon black if it needs to be UV resistant.as a reference, i can print out things to better than a 0.1mm tolerance on dimensions with my cheap and cheerful unit, anything that cannot meet that spec, i would call junk.

author: kripton2035
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 12, 2018, 07:22:30 am
content: I have made my choice on the Cetus printer, but as the european stocks are fairly (too) low, I still have'nt bought it (yet)

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 12, 2018, 08:04:03 am
content: Prusa make printers, kit or pre-assembled, for sub-$1000 which work perfectly well.Cheaper options include the likes of the Creality CR-10. It's a bit basic but it works well enough, and lots of room for improvement.

author: djos
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 12, 2018, 08:52:11 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on February 12, 2018, 06:47:51 amThey do look excellent value! Personally I'll need one that is self leveling as I don't have room for one to be setup all the time.

author: sarel.wagner
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 12, 2018, 08:57:06 am
content: I went a wee bit more expensive/better value... ZMorph printer $2400.00 at the time, but with 3d print, Laser and CNC tool heads.

author: mairo
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 12, 2018, 01:49:38 pm
content: On the cheap site I would say look at Zortax (not under $1k tho), and on the expensive site at HP Jet Fusion. I've worked with both and from an EE point of view I find these two the best at the two price corners. Mainly in terms of usability and the quality of the builds. Of course one may need some specific material, or a specific built volume, in which case some other printers may be a better option.

author: wilhe_jo
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 12, 2018, 03:05:47 pm
content: I got a FlyingBear Tornado... rock solid from mechanical point of view (linear rails - no rods!) and decent electronics (they'll send you some upgrade stepper drivers... nice silent tmc2208 ones...).So far a bargain... but the software is... let's call it poor! (even the steps/mm settings were wrong!)The best thing to do is to get a fresh marlin-firmware from the web and do all the calibration...If you've some time to do this, go for a 500-700EURO printer... if not, I'm afraid, the sub 1k$ range is nothing for you...73

author: sokoloff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 12, 2018, 03:26:12 pm
content: I have the Monoprice clone of the FlashForge Creator Pro. It's fine for prototyping parts and I even make enclosures for a low-volume product that I sell using it. I print almost exclusively with ABS.If I was starting now, I'd buy the Prusa, which is in a similar price range.For ABS, youneeda heated build plate; I built for 3 years on Kapton tape and switched to borosilicate glass about 6 months ago. I wish I'd have switched much earlier. The glass is 10x better than the tape. I hear good things about the Prusa plate, but have no firsthand experience (other than visiting the Prusa "factory" last year for a quick walkaround).With any of the printers, there's a learning curve involved, on all of the mechanical, design, and software side, so don't expect to get perfect prints out the first week you have the printer.

author: kaz911
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 12, 2018, 05:12:51 pm
content: Quote from: mairo on February 12, 2018, 01:49:38 pmI'm on the Zortrax M200 as well. I have not found or tried anything that rivals it at printing ABS. I just know it works and often leave it to print with no supervision.The support used to beultra rudeand their way or the high way - but they have come off their high horse a bit lately. It is not the latest and greatest but prints really nice. And now they even ...allow using your own print materials to a certain degree.The features I was promised when I bought it has never turned up (WiFi & Dual Head upgrade) and the dual head is the only reason I might change to Ultimaker 3 at some point.2nd hand I have seen a few Zortrax M200 printers go for around $1200. And I think Gen I (kickstarter age) and Gen 4 hardware are the "best" for durability. There was some Gen 2/3 machines where they tried to cut cost and that did not work so well as far as I remember.

author: e100
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 12, 2018, 05:15:18 pm
content: Quote from: wilhe_jo on February 12, 2018, 03:05:47 pmThis youtube video says basically to avoid it unless you have lots of free time to fix the numerous problems.

author: e100
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 12, 2018, 05:20:16 pm
content: Quote from: blueskull on February 12, 2018, 06:47:51 amInteresting review at

author: e100
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 12, 2018, 05:23:21 pm
content: Quote from: sokoloff on February 12, 2018, 03:26:12 pmPrusa setup guide.Good to see the creator actually demoing their own product.

author: kripton2035
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 12, 2018, 05:54:46 pm
content: another (technical) review for the cetus :and for the heated bed :

author: wilhe_jo
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 12, 2018, 06:13:10 pm
content: Quote from: e100 on February 12, 2018, 05:15:18 pmwell, just listen to 6:20 .... it's built fantastic.. the electronic's ok, but the rest is crap.The missing part-cooling fan is actually really bad but I made one on the machine... so it's not totally useless from the beginningA tmc2208 came some 2 weeks after the printer from china... makes it nice and quite.The z-axis is a little weak point (as for all printers having 2 lead screws)... but you can life with that.I need to confess, I forget about the AC/DC thing... but if you've opened one of these open-frame things, you'll always replace them!So, as I said, you'll need time to calibrate everything, then it's no bad deal... I got my for under 500Euro delivered from within the EU!That's ok for a printer without any plastic parts (ok, bowden tube, drag chain, fan blades,... are plasitc).But did I mention that you'll need quite some time and patience to get it working properly ?Quote from: e100 on February 12, 2018, 06:27:59 amABS is not the only plastic suited for outdoor use... PET-G is great and easy to print! (but not es cheap as ABS).I printed this nicely on my old i3 clone!73

author: phil from seattle
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 12, 2018, 06:45:46 pm
content: 3D printing is not anywhere close to turnkey. Even if you have a perfect printer, you will need to experiment with the filaments. Each one is different and needs to get dialed in to get good quality results. Same material, different manufacturer requires different settings (usually at least temperature). Even same material and same manufacturer but different colors takes tweaking. And, there are a lot settings to fuss with.And machine setup and tuning is a big part of the process. There's a reason why so many prints on thingaverse are upgrades for 3D printers. I think it's really cool that machine can be used to upgrade itself but some view that as a detour from the original goal when they got the machine.Also, the comment about .1 mm resolution is misleading. You can get that resolution in the Z axis but a .1mm nozzle, if you can find one, is going to KILL your speed. Heck, .1mm Z resolution with a fat nozzle will kill your speed. I usually print with .4 nozzle and .25 Z slice and that takes a couple of hours for a relatively simple print. Same print with .1/.1 will take 10X longer. And all it takes is one hiccup to ruin your print.You will need to learn a lot about 3D printing to get good prints. I think it is on the same level of complexity as metal machining. Materials, techniques, machine - lots to learn.Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to discourage you. I love 3D printing, it opens a lot of doors, but expect a reasonably steep learning curve to get good quality prints. And, expect to take a lot of time and fiddling to get those prints.

author: kaz911
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 12, 2018, 06:51:41 pm
content: Quote from: phil from seattle on February 12, 2018, 06:45:46 pmYour statement is correct for most 3D printers but a few like the Zortrax works out of the box with their filaments if you don't fiddle with settings in their software. I do .19 layers in ABS and have never changed anything but how many top or bottom layers to include. And learn how to orient prints for best results. That is why I use the Zortrax despite the company being a PITA.I had an Ultimaker standard before and that I had to mod and experiment with. But not so with the M200 - just press print and out it comes. The only upgrade I'm contemplating is either Ultimaker 3 - or get a new V2 head + new heated bed for the M200 as large prints can warp on the Gen 1 heated bed I have.

author: hagster
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 12, 2018, 07:41:06 pm
content: Many of the cheap printers are pretty good these days.I have had a Wanhao i3 for a few years now and its been really good and very reliable.From what I have seen you wont get anything much better than a genuine Prussa MK3 even at double the cost. But with only slightly more hastle you can get nearly the same quality out of a CR10 or Tevo Tornado and bigger build volume for half the cost of that.Personally I would rather have 2 or 3 $400 machines over a single $2000 machine.

author: e100
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 13, 2018, 02:39:25 am
content: Quote from: hagster on February 12, 2018, 07:41:06 pmWanhao Duplicator i3 Plus review

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 13, 2018, 03:11:21 am
content: I have owned both the Tiertime UP! Mini and UP! BOX printers. For those unaware, the CETUS is a Tiertime manufactured printer that has been simplified to lower cost. A cut down, but very similar, motherboard is used.Both my Mini and BOX printers worked straight out of the box and produce excellent prints with ABS filament.I still have the UP! Box and it produces superb prints with the official UP! Filaments. It can take other makes and types of filament as well. I cannot recommend UP! Printers enough. I hear all manner of horror stories regarding set up of 3D printers and the continuous tinkering needed to keep them 'in tune' . No such experiences with two UP! Mini's and the UP! Box.Tiertime UP! Printers use 'in-house' STL printing software and slicer. It is well developed however and is one reason for the printers excellent performance. A chap in HK has created a replacement CPU board that converts the UP! Printers and Cetus (a cut down UP! PLUS 2) to Smoothieware and GCODE. He makes 3 versions of CPU board.... USB, USB + Ethernet, USB + Wi-Fi. His eBay shop is tinyfab.xyz and it contains some useful upgrades for Tiertime UP! and CETUS printer ownershttps://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/WIFI-GCODE-CPU-for-Tiertime-UP-plus-2-mini-cetus-3D-printer-by-tinyfab/222768302327?hash=item33de0688f7:g:t6cAAOSwnCFaP-P0Upgraded build platform temperature controller for UP! mini etchttps://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/HEATBED-CTRL-UP-mini-heated-bed-PID-Controller-Driver-by-tinyfab/222561351998?hash=item33d1b0b93e:g:geEAAOSw8d5ZUoc6Cetus heated bed + CPU bundlehttps://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/BUNDLE-TinyFab-CPU-WIFI-Heatbed-Driver-for-cetus-3D-printer/222768307464?_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIM.MBE%26ao%3D2%26asc%3D49925%26meid%3D153e645a5d9747758accdd6dddd00b58%26pid%3D100005%26rk%3D2%26rkt%3D6%26sd%3D222768302327%26itm%3D222768307464&_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851For anyone wanting a 'turn key' 3D printing solution, I can certainly recommend Tiertime printers. They just work, no fuss, no bother, just great quality prints and easy support material removalIMHO, life is too short to waste on a 3D printer that, though cheaper, requires lots of fine tuning and messing about to achieve decent quality prints. I print in ABS as it is easy to work with, sand, paint and glue. For ABS you need a good quality printer with heated bed and preferably an enclosed print chamber that remains warm during printing. Stratasys know this and hold the Patent for the heated build chamber.Take a look at this video on YouTube:http://youtu.be/U9FMVjAEdzoThe comments on the UP! Mini being ABS only are out of date. The new software supports ABS and PLA, plus it can set the Extruder temperature. The step height is also down to 0.15mm in the new software. The build platform sits at 60C as supplied, but is easily modified to work at 80C+ or unheated for PLA. This printer model and s now quite old but it never needed ant serious issues fixing so even an early unit works as well as the last ones produced. It was 'well sorted' from the start.Fraser

author: hagster
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 13, 2018, 05:50:40 am
content: I have hears good things about the Up printers too.On the OP's original question.There is no price threshold where printers suddenly become good. There are good cheap printers and bad expensive machines. Price is a very weak predictor of quality in 3Dprinting.

author: Kean
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 13, 2018, 08:25:00 am
content: I'm another one who can happily recommend the UP! machines, especially if youre a first time 3D printer who just wants a machine that works. I've been running an UP! Plus for many years, and it has been great as a first 3D printer. It has even printed a whole bunch of small enclosures for animal tracking devices I sell, which get some serious abuse in the field - they get coated with 2-part resin after printing for additional strength & water resistance.I recently decided to get a machine with a larger print area. I considered the UP! Box, but couldn't really justify the price for my usage - especially as I've been saving up for a new scope. I also considered the CR10 as it has had a lot of great reviews, but I mainly want to print ABS and it isn't ideal for that. In the end I decided on the JGAurora A5. Despite some not great reviews, it looked good for my application, was available for around AU$500 delivered, and there is open source replacement firmware for it. I've been using it with Simplify 3D and it seems to do a great job, but you do need to customise your settings for both the machine, the material, and the parts being printed. I'm still holding back on my verdict of the "diamond" glass bed - it works well, but not sure how long the surface finish will last.

author: Dubbie
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 13, 2018, 09:24:04 am
content: Does anyone here have a printer that is NOT FDM? I’ve been looking at the form 2. I’m not interested in the poor resolution and surface finish of filament types. Anyone have any experience in that area?

author: plazma
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 13, 2018, 09:51:37 am
content: Check out this sub 500€ DLP UV resin printerhttps://youtu.be/5YrUQOYLoK0

author: djos
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 13, 2018, 10:23:59 am
content: Quote from: plazma on February 13, 2018, 09:51:37 amOh wow, that's awesome!

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 13, 2018, 02:11:18 pm
content: Regarding the fdm print process.There are good and less good printers do the fdm output of a good printer can be excellent. It is note worthy that NASA recently elected to have a whole batch of complex shape antenna's printed using FDM. They were very impressed with the results and it saved them a fortune in CNC work and parts assembly. If FDM is good enough for NASA space rated components, it is good enough for me.On a serious note, there are other print technologies such as UV resin Bath and powder 3D printers. Do check on the longevity of the printed item however. Some of these technologies are superb for prototyping but the materials used can be very expensive and some degrade with exposure to UV light. NASA solved that problem with plastics degradation in Space by applying a protective coating to the finished print to armour it against space.The full story is here..........https://www.stratasysdirect.com/resources/case-studies/3d-printed-satellite-exterior-nasa-jet-propulsion-laboratoryOff topic.... a scientist was recently asked what will happen to the Elon Musk car that is now in space. His reply was shocking. The car contains an aluminium chassis etc but is otherwise made from organic materials. In less than a year the organic materials will be literally torn apart at the atomic level so nothing but the Aluminium parts will remainSpace is a very harsh environment but thankfully we do not normally need to concern ourselves with that.Fraser

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 13, 2018, 02:19:48 pm
content: A very good point has been made here by a fellow forum member. Cost is not always a good indicator of a printers performance.Very expensive printers can be unreliable and in need of much fine tuning. It all comes down to the design and operating system. Some printers have huge mark-ups applied to capture buyers who think that the more they pay, the better the results. Whilst it is true that very cheap or DIY 3D printers can be a challenge to use and achieve excellent results from, it is also true that some very impressive and comp,ex looking expensive printers have issues that make them frustrating to use. Issues such as Extruder blocking, filament jams or platform levelling errors can make life miserable for the user. In my opinion, it is best to study the market and read as many real world user reviews as possible. Make a short list of printers with a good reputation for print quality and low maintenance and pick the best you can afford from that list.Another trap to avoid is buying a 'reduced cost' version of a printer such as a CETUS, and then end up spending a lot of money upgrading it to your required spec. Such can be fun, but the costs mount and it may have been better to pay the extra for a better printer in the first place. Also consider the cost and quality of the filament. Cheap filament can be OK, but it can also cause printing quality issues. The filament is only actually 'cheap' if the prints turn out OK and you do not end up wasting loads of filament through poor or failed prints. This is why I have been using the filament Tiertime Offer for thir printers. It certainly is not cheap, but I have had only one 'birds nest' print failure. All other prints have been completed perfectlyI have had issues with some large ABS prints warping, but that is not the filament at fault but rather me, for not allowing enough build platform heating timeLastly, prints can take a long time to be produced. This is especially so with small level increments of les than 0.2mm. You really want those prints to be good or else you are just wasting your time and suffering delays in getting your desired result. Very frustrating. That is why I bought a 'turn key' solution. Others like to tinker endlessly with their 3D printer. They get enjoyment from that activity so failed prints and lost time are not such an issue for them. I use my 3D printer as a serious tool, so have no interest in spending lots of time tweaking settings and adjusting mechanisms. Tools should just 'work'FraserFraser

author: e100
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 13, 2018, 02:48:16 pm
content: Just out of curiosity, does anyone know if any of the $500 - $1000 printers use closed loop control for positioning, or is that not necessary given that the filament nozzle size is some large fraction of a mm in diameter?

author: sokoloff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 13, 2018, 02:51:35 pm
content: I think they're all stepper motor driven (open loop). Provided you have enough power supply (most do) to not skip steps (most don't, absent bad gcode or physical collision), there's not much advantage.On the topic of which printer, another thing to consider is that there is benefit to buying a somewhat common printer when seeking advice on the forums. This is more relevant for one's first printer (where the user's experience is lowest). I have definitely benefited from searching forums for "FlashForge Creator" content (even though mine is a clone). If I'd had a less common printer, I'd have been a lot more on my own in the learning process.

author: e100
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 13, 2018, 03:12:09 pm
content: Quote from: Kean on February 13, 2018, 08:25:00 amIn depth review of the JGAurora A5

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 13, 2018, 03:23:58 pm
content: Sokolof,A very good point SirThe availability, or not, of advice and spare parts needs to be considered in the selection process.There are clones of well known printers and, as has been stated, there are vast pools of experience on the forums if the design is popular. There can be improved parts to print yourself or purchase. There can be bespoke firmware to correct issues that have not been addressed by the OEM, and there can be 'hop-ups' to greatly improve performance. This can be the realm of the 3D printing 'geek' who loves to tinker, but those people know the designs inside and out so can provide invaluable help to noobs.Spare parts quality and availability is an important subject to consider. 3D FDM printers are, by nature, mechanical and parts can wear or fail over time. Consider it similar to owning a car. If you own a well known brand, parts and support are easily obtained. If you own a kit car made by someone other than yourself, or a, now defunct, 'cottage industry' car manufacturer, you may have difficulty locating parts and support. That can be both frustrating and expensive to resolve.Thankfully many common printers have decent parts availability, even if from 3rd party manufacturers. Many printers contain plastic parts that the OEM provides STL's for. The parts can then be printed on your own printer (if still working) or a bought in service. Spare parts prices can vary greatly. Sadly it is a fact that the big name 3D printer OEM's follow the standard policy of fleecing owners for original spare parts. This is where 3rd party parts can come to the rescue if of suitable quality as they are often much cheaper. My Tiertime printers are reliable but the spare parts are expensive when compared to the generic printer parts found on eBay. My complete (with motor) Extruder head for the UP! Box costs £220 ! Sadly there is no 3rd party supplier of such. A generic printer Extruder head, including the motor, costs around 20% of that price, or even less, from China. My build plates that sit on top of the heated bed cost £30 each ! The heater for the Extruder is £70 and brass Extruder nozzles are £15. I decided to buy a spare Extruder head ribbon cable for the UP! Box as it is the only known weak point in the design and it can fail over many hours of use (migration of the cores within the insulation). The ribbon looks like a standard flat ribbon cable, but it is not. It is a custom part for a Tiertime with a reinforced backing binder to it to reduce stress on the cable cores. The cable is long and even though I bought a generic non-reinforced cable for £6, I eventually buckled and bought the proper cable from Tiertime for £28 ! Any parts from Tiertime seem to cost a lot in Europe due to high shipping costs and VAT from the USA or OEM. Basic prices in the USA appear more reasonable. My UP! Box contains a very effective HEPA particle and odour filter. In the USA it costs £8. In the UK and Europe it was costing £15 plus shipping. Thankfully RAPID UK now stock it at £8 plus UK shipping.Finally, a little known fact. Tiertime use flame retardant plastic in their printers, including the 3D printed parts. They clearly state that owner self printed parts, especially those around the Extruder head are a temporary repair only. They recommend ordering of the OEM made parts as soon as possible. No one wants a fire started by their 3D printer and I do not leave the house with mine running. The Extruder contains a heater, as does the heated build plate, and quite high currents are in use. I am pleased to see that Tiertime considered the risk of an overheated plastics induced fire in their printers. The Filament could still burn though.Fraser

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 13, 2018, 04:36:07 pm
content: I just watched the JGAurora review referenced above.That review demonstrates the issues with the 3D printer marketplace at the moment. For me these are....1. A generic printer design fitted with generic control, drive and display PCB. Not an optimised solution.2. Issues with generic settings in the GUI as in the case of loading filament and the nozzle temperature causing a Bowden drive lockout. Plain laziness on the part of the manufacturer of the printer and pretty damn obvious !3. Issues with levelling the bed. No auto levelling and poor levelling repeatability due to poor bed levelling mechanics. This could get very tiresome as bed levelling is important for a decent print.4. Generic firmware running on the unit that, in this case, was very out of date. The fact that features appeared in the GUI that did not exist in the printer makes for a real DIY feel to the unit. Not refined at all on this front.5. All manner of options to 'fine tune' the printing process. Some might Love such controls, others, like myself, may hate the fact that the printer doesn't just get on and produce a high quality print on its own without the need to faff around with minute adjustments in the settings menu. This is a tool after all ! Sometimes the ability to fine tune a system is good, other times it is just an early warning that the system is unstable and needs lots of tweaking and fettling for a decent result. The use of generic boards and firmware likely make such fine tuning options essential for the firmware to match up with the design and performance of the hardware. A non optimised solution that requires the user to do the hard work. No thanks !6. The OEM appears to have used an old version of firmware yet not made it easy to upgrade it to the latest version. Poor show if it is subject to the GPL. Why use an outdated and problematic firmware in your product ? Weird, plain weird.7. The physical layout of the printer is pretty generic and typical of the arch type designs. It uses a filament push system that pushes the filament through a Bowden cable sleeve. Not my favourite system as it can suffer binding issues and is, IMHO, less reliable than a pull/push system like on the UP! Printers. The motor on these is on the head and pulls the filament through a Bowden cable sleeve before pushing it through the closely coupled Extruder head via a straight path. The reviewed design also leaves something to be desired on the cable management front. Having the moving bed cable foul the X-Axis motor cable is just plain lazy engineering and testing.8. It appears that the printer cannot print in ABS or other similar materials with their high nozzle temperature and bed temperature needs ? That, for me, is a deal breaker. ABS may be smelly to print but it is a great material where you want to be able to sand, paint or glue parts. It is like working with Airfix model kits ! PLA is a comparative nightmare on this front. Large units can be printed in sections when using ABS and simply glued together using plastic weld or standard modelling hard plastics glues (Airfix Cement). Damaged parts can also be repaired in the same way. RC aircraft prints benefit from repairability. If a printer cannot cope with ABS, I would remove it from my short list, simple as that.9. The reviewed printer is an 'open' frame design. I personally prefer the enclosed build area designs that go some way to creating a warm build environment for ABS printing and help to contain any fumes produced during the printing process. This may be important for people with breathing related conditions or allergies ? Modern enclosed printers contain HEPA filters to scrub the air inside the enclosure. ABS does produce quite acrid fumes when being heated and extruded !Well that just about does it from me. 3D printing can be the veritable minefield when it comes to selecting your first printer. Buying a used printer, like I have, is feasible but remember that printers can be abused, worn out, or just bad performers, hence being rehomed ! Some people sell their smaller 'first' printer in order to move up to a larger model. This is what I effectively did. My UP! Mini and UP! Box printers came from fellow Forum member Toploser and they were customer returns to either CPC/Farnell. It is a fact that some 3D printers get bought and returned after a 'project' is printed or the user just does not have the required understanding of the process to make it work for their needs. The printers become customer returns with no actual faults present. In the case of the UP! BOX, it did have a faulty Extruder but Toploser bought a new one for over £200 before selling it to me. Toploser is a Top notch chapThe used UP! BOX had extruded 9kg of filament before it was returned. It looked like new inside and the 9kg of printing has thoroughly tested it for meIt has not missed a beat since I got it 7 months ago. Do not rule out used printers in order to save money, but do be careful when buying such. Faulty parts can be expensive to replace , negating any saving made by buying a used unit.Fraser

author: e100
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 14, 2018, 08:50:01 am
content: On a related theme, 3D Printers on Kickstarter - Where are they now? on youtube.In summary:- Successful products tend to be smaller/cheaper versions of existing successful products made by companies that have multiple years of experience making mid/high end 3d printers.- Novel or cheap designs either won't ship, will be more expensive than projected or will have multiple issues that may never be resolved.- If the product is still being sold 2 years after the initial release then it is likely to be usable (survival of the fittest etc)- If you back a campaign then the money can be used for anything (building a house, going on holiday etc.), not necessarily delivering a product. Effectively you are making a donation, not placing a pre-order. There is no 'money back' clause.

author: ChrisLX200
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 14, 2018, 09:43:14 am
content: There are a lot of  moving parts in a 3D printer and precision/construction quality is must if you are to get any sort of decent print. My Wanhao Duplicator 4S has been running for a couple of years now and I have to say the print quality has been very good - confirmed by the many owners of this popular printer. It's not without issues though - I've had numerous ball bearing failures, all in one position (gantry top-right, which carries the lateral torque of two drive belts) and replacement is a bit tricky. I was so fed up with having to repeatedly strip the machine to replace this bearing I ended up machining a new bearing housing carrying a pair of heavier bearings (as opposed to the single bearing as supplied). I've been considering buying a new printer but have yet to find one that offers significant improvements at the price, paying more doesn't always translate to better prints..

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 14, 2018, 05:21:58 pm
content: e100,Thanks for the link to that video. Very interesting, informative and entertaining.Kickstarter is explained very well and it is useful to hear of the behaviour of some companies who either succeeded or failed in delivering a product that worked as advertised. The company that basically ditched half its backers orders and started selling direct amazed and appalled me at the same time. That company had big balls !Fraser

author: hagster
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2018, 06:29:33 pm
content: Quote from: e100 on February 13, 2018, 02:48:16 pmThe Mod-T printer used closed loop control. But theu recently shut up shop. And the quality wasnt that great apparentlyThe enourmoushttps://3dplatform.commachines use closed loop servo control.The new Prussa mk3 has step skip detection and can re-home and recover from skips. I guess this is partial closes loop control.Overall though its not a feature thats likely to improve quality in most cases. Things like frame rigidity, moving mass weight, bearing quality etc etc have a bigger effect.

author: Yellofriend
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 20, 2018, 06:46:51 am
content: IMHO the cheapest entry point that doesn't have too much fiddling would be theEnder 2.It costs around $150-200 and has a heated bed, means can do ABS, PETG etc.Many others (Prusa, CR-10 etc.) were already named here.But really, depends on whatyouwant to do with it.

author: mavu
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: February 20, 2018, 09:10:45 am
content: There is only one choice to make if you want to buy a 3d printer:Do you have more money than time?Or do you have more time than money?In the first case: buy the *Original* Prusa MK3 from Prusa Research.There is no better printer on the market under 10.000 $ (or €,whatever)If you want to print things successfully every single time, this is what you want, especially considering the price of under 1000$/€ and it is available as a very well documented kit if you want it even cheaper.Check one of the reviews for a list of all features and why it is so good. Too much to list here.If you just don't have the money for one of these, consider other printers mentioned in this thread, but the Prusa MK3 (or even the previous MK2s if you can get it used or as a kit) is in a league of its own.

author: hagster
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 20, 2018, 12:04:24 pm
content: Quote from: mavu on February 20, 2018, 09:10:45 amIf only things were that simple. But firstly I will state that the MK3 looks like a fine printer and probably is a great choice for many of those that want a step up from the cheap chinese machines. I would love one.However... I have to disagree that its the ONLY choice for less than 10K. Here are a few reasons why you might want something else.If you need a different build volume. Perhaps bigger, berhaps taller, perhaps longer.If you need an enclosure to print PC, ABS etc.If you need dual material. The prusa multimaterial printer looks great, but you arent going to do PVA supports with it or flex rigid combos.For some of these perhaps the Ultimaker 3 (or extended, BCNsigma (or max) or new Robox Pro are very worthy competitors. But yes about 2 to 4 times the price of the Prusa.

author: MicroBlocks
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: February 21, 2018, 09:28:14 am
content: What most 3d printer users forget is that something wonderful as glue exists.You need only a small hickup to scrap an hours long print. This is your first concern after having dialled in temperature and speed settings.Slice up the model and print it as smaller parts that can be glued up.It also very often avoids support material (by rotating the model first) which is sometimes hard to remove and clean up. It waste also a lot of time to print all that support material.I use cura and i can place mulptiple models on the bed that are printer one by one. The software takes care the printhead will not crash into previous models by warning you at placement time.It works perfectly and when you have that inevitable little hickup then only a small part is wasted.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 21, 2018, 09:38:48 am
content: Quote from: hagster on February 20, 2018, 12:04:24 pmOr you're impatient & want something quickly - seems they've been selling faster than they can make them, though website is only saying 2 weeks now for the kit, "March" for assembled

author: ZomBiE80
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: February 21, 2018, 11:22:28 am
content: No 3D printer will be "Quick and easy" or "Plug and Pl/ray" ever. Every decent machine will need setup until those will produce nice results. Those chinese P.O.S's have such high tolerances, replacing parts to something suitable will cost more than base unit itself. With less than 1000€ you wouldn't get anything useful, unless you are handy guy like me or Mike.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 21, 2018, 11:27:19 am
content: Quote from: ZomBiE80 on February 21, 2018, 11:22:28 amOr you buy, say, a Prusa.

author: wilhe_jo
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2018, 07:03:16 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on February 21, 2018, 11:27:19 amI really don't get why everybody's running after these prusa printers.The only thing which may get you faster to nice prints are the profiles for different filaments... but these will only work better (read "well without further tweaking") for expensive brands. Cheap filaments will need tweaking anyway.If you got through all troubles with calibration once, this is like 15min playing with some settings.However, 3d Printers are essentially CNC machines. So they wil never be plug'n'play or quick'n'easy... maybe in some corner cases.73

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2018, 07:22:44 pm
content: Quote from: wilhe_jo on February 22, 2018, 07:03:16 pmFrom what I've seen, quiet Trinamic drivers that can also sense missed steps and recover, direct filament sensing, auto bed-level sensing and ability to recover from a power-outage.The fact that they 3D print a lot of the parts for their printers themselves means they should a lot of experience in making them work reliably

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2018, 08:18:38 pm
content: Quote from: wilhe_jo on February 22, 2018, 07:03:16 pmYou can get them properly preassembled and tested, their firmware is maintained specifically for the machine, they're not thrown together to imitate some other design as cheaply as possible..Buy a preassembled Prusa. Take it out of the box, run through a few minutes of verification steps, feed it gcode and it prints properly. They reallyarefairly quick and easy to get going. I know, I know, you don't believe me..

author: wilhe_jo
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2018, 08:22:52 am
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on February 22, 2018, 07:22:44 pmWell all of these are good points, but to be honest, I want my printer to be fast, big, reasonable quality, quiet and reliable operation.To get a big and fast printer providing quality, I got for myself a H-Bot.Trinamic drivers were supplied (the 2208 ones... so no stall detection but as quiet), bed leveling is done with a bltouch probe.To prevent the printer to hick-up on every mains-glitch I got a standard 24V industrial supply... so no problems with voltage dips,...But the main thing for me was the mechanics...If Prusa had a CoreXY or a H-Bot, I'd have possibly taken that one.Quote from: Monkeh on February 22, 2018, 08:18:38 pmWell, that's only half the story. You will buy some cheaper (or in my case, locally sourced) filaments, and you're again fiddling around with some values. That's not quick/easy!If you just want the thing to run out of the box - RS Components has the Replicator Mini and Makerbot Go for like 1500Euro (incl. VAT).Then you have at least a printer with serious mechanics which can go fast which not only has a maintained firmware but also a slicer with a huge arsenal of filament presets.Same seems true for the Lulzbot printers... similar price range as the prusas but IMHO has nicer mechanics.So there are definitly good alternatives for the i3... the Lulzbot ones are also open-source as the Prusa ones!maybe it was just the i3 Mk3 launch making people just blindly running after these...73

author: ar__systems
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2018, 01:52:27 pm
content: I got myself a Zortrax and I'm pretty happy with it. I was looking for printer to just work, without having to tweak many parameters. And it is good. I don't have to fiddle with parameters a whole lot. Their native slicer is a bit limited, but there is a way to use Simplify3D with converting gcode to zcode using a z-tool application. This is a path I'm taking now. In the last two month I printed tons of parts, mainly various jigs and tools for my SMT equipment.Still, as much as hands off it is, one need to understand limitations of this manufacturing process, and material properties. So you need be realistic. If you want a completely point-and-shoot kind of machine, I don't think it exists at any price.

author: ar__systems
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2018, 01:58:06 pm
content: I have to mention that Zortrax is very solidly built. I had an opportunity to compare it to XYZ DaVinci, which is about 1/2 price of the zortrax. And it shows. The daVinci is built to minimize cost. Lot's of plastic and sheet metal. Zortrax is all thick metal plates and no plastic.Solid mechanics is apparently very important to get stable results.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2018, 02:37:18 pm
content: Quote from: wilhe_jo on February 23, 2018, 08:22:52 amSo your argument against the Prusas is that you wouldn't buy good filament if you bought a Prusa. What.QuoteI never said there weren't. I just happen to be somewhat familiar with the Prusa machines. .. and no, I'm not some fanboy with a garage full of them. I own 0.

author: wilhe_jo
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2018, 04:40:30 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on February 23, 2018, 02:37:18 pmNo, I mend all that easiness is going away if you use filament other than the "supported".From my experience, +-5° Extruder-Temp, +-5% Filament Diameter, +-20mm/s Print Speed matters a lot!And the filament is only 1 part of the equation.e.g. If I've a Print where I have long straight lines to print, I tend to go a little hotter.For Prints with loads of small sections I increase the fan speed... which is the #1 noise source... so I tend to slow it down as much as i can.In the end, I get really nice prints, but I would not call 100% first time right. Which matches the observations of ar__systems...73

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2018, 05:14:50 pm
content: Quote from: wilhe_jo on February 23, 2018, 04:40:30 pmGarbage in, garbage out. Not every filament can be tested and not every manufacturer even produces consistent filament.So.. if you buy a decent printer, and you don't feed it crap, it pretty much works fine out of the box. And it can be done for under 1000 £, $, €, which is the 'magic price' some people have pulled out of their arses in this thread. I use Prusa as an examplebecause I know what their prices are. What's the price of something else which works? No idea, I'm not in the market for them. I'm just hung up on facts I happen to have on hand..

author: hagster
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2018, 02:20:40 am
content: My colour multifunction laser printer with duplex print, duplex scan, doc feeder, wifi and touchscreen is absolutely amazing and only cast £200 shipped next day.3d printers are orders of magnitude less sophisticated. As such it is perfectly possible to have cheap and good machines. The only reason EU and US manufacturers can not sell them cheaply is scale.

author: wilhe_jo
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2018, 03:06:37 am
content: There's prusa makerbot and lulzbot... i think the west countries are okay...The price difference to laser printers has to do with different volumes... Just compare your Toner Volume per sheet to and the volume on a filament role. And dont forget the 3rd dimension....To be honest, slicers and firmwares are already pretty sophisticated. And you need to compare it to monochrome printers....and take care of the refill prices....I dont really buy crap filaments, but i have like 10 spools of different colors and plastics. And even in Austria are local filament companies. Its like cnc milling.... You get ok results from ball-park feeds and feeds, to get good results you need loads of experience with your tooling.Btw my hbot was like 500eur +some meters of filaments for a cooling shroud.... But I had to learn about my slicer (Ideamaker) the "hard" way.73