Battery to allow Windows to shutdown only - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: kmich411
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: February 12, 2020, 10:17:04 pm
content: Can you recommend a very small 12V rechargeable smart battery capable of keeping a Windows 10 Pentium computer running long enough to properly shutdown Windows once power is removed? My processor module will provide all of the other necessary voltages.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 13, 2020, 04:18:36 pm
content: QuoteYou need to define that time and then you can figure out, or ask for suggestions, how to achieve it. Without knowing what the computer is, what's attached, what software is running, etc, it's a piece of string question and answer.Also, perhaps say why a common UPS wouldn't be suitable. Is that too big, too separate, too expensive?

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 13, 2020, 04:57:25 pm
content: If you haven't blocked updates, it's about 30 secs before you were going to hit save after a half-hours work.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 13, 2020, 04:57:37 pm
content: It's possible things have changed, but I had a Win10 laptop at a former job and it would occasionally demand to install updates and take over 45 minutes to shut down. It got to the point where I'd sometimes just hard power-off in anger so I could pack up and go home.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 13, 2020, 06:55:54 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on February 13, 2020, 04:57:37 pmI've seen that as well. Due to hard power-offs, I've even seen some people have their SSD borked after that (on some Dell laptops). Nice!So yeah.... it can be just a few seconds when everything goes well and there's no pending update, up to a few hours. You never really know.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 08, 2020, 03:55:40 am
content: Would a small UPS not do the job? They are inexpensive and even a small unit would keep a basic PC running for 30+ minutes.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 08, 2020, 05:52:04 pm
content: Quote from: kmich411 on February 12, 2020, 10:17:04 pmIf you want to do this then you likely need to switch to an embedded version of Windows where you can disable updates. Otherwise the amount of time needed for a shutdown is even more unpredictable. A quick & dirty solution can be to disable write caching so at least you don't lose data if the system is powered off.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 08, 2020, 06:06:17 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on February 13, 2020, 04:57:37 pmYou probably dickered it by doing just that or only turning it off occasionally. When rebooting gets postponed the work and clean up simply compounds so those few times you do reboot it does indeed take ages. Turning the thing off in the "don't turn your computer off" phase can create interesting problems. I don't think I've ever seen Windows 10 updates taking ages without there being a simian explanation except for feature updates.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 08, 2020, 08:56:18 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on March 08, 2020, 06:06:17 pmThe problem is that doing the updates typically takes long enough to miss the bus or train. When I leave from a customer I need my laptop to shutdown in a minute. Windows7 does that nicely every time. The same for an emergency shutdown; this needs to finish in a well defined amount of time. If I'm reading the OP right he/she is designing an embedded system running windows so using a UPS is also out of the question and there is a similar time constraint.For Linux systems I make the OS partition read-only so the OS can never be altered (=screwed up). I don't know if Windows10 supports something like that but it would be nice so the contents of the registry is frozen.

author: Nusa
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 09, 2020, 12:04:11 am
content: shutdown /p run in administrator mode should shut down the machine ASAP, without updates. (edit for typo)

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 09, 2020, 12:25:33 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on March 08, 2020, 08:56:18 pmWindows 7 does updates upon shutdown too, as does Windows 8. I get the feeling people have selective memories when it comes to Windows 10. Other than that, Nusa has the right idea. Just make sure you don't do it every time because that one time you do a regular shutdown it will indeed take forever. Of course a laptop can also be closed for sleep or hibernation in case of an "emergency". Or a bit of planning could help. Updates are released predictably.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 09, 2020, 10:55:53 am
content: QuoteNot out of the blue. With Windows 7 you can elect exactly when to download or apply the updates, and it's only after that that some updates do things on shutdown (or boot).QuoteEt tu, Brutus

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 09, 2020, 12:02:11 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on March 09, 2020, 12:25:33 amNo it doesn't. Just turn the automatic updates off and install manually at appropriate times (when the computer isn't critically needed for the next couple of days and there is time to mess with fixing Windows). Windows updates aren't critical for security anyway (unless you use Microsoft's web browser but who does that? )

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 09, 2020, 02:48:01 pm
content: Agreed - this won't happen with Win 7 unless you're on automatic updates, which I have never been.Then updates will happen only if you manually start them.And even so, the updates that require a reboot to complete will indeed do something upon shutdown (if again you have started them!!), but the part done updon shutdown itself is usually very short - a few seconds IME. It can take a little more than that when you restart the computer (at boot time), but you can let it complete the updating when you restart your computer later on.From memory, the only time the update part done upon shutdown in Win 7 took a very long time was when MS released this infamous "preparation update" for upgrading to Win10. It could take more than 1 hour before the computer would actually shut down. But it's the only occurence it took that much time ever since I've been using 7.OTOH, as many others here, I have had multiple reports of colleagues having Win 10 updates take more than 30 minutes upon shutdown, as was described above, which sometimes forced them to hard switch off their computer - sometimes with very bad consequences. Something that I've never seen happen with 7, except for the above example I gave - which was infamously linked to Win 10 again.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 09, 2020, 03:44:22 pm
content: Now to get things back on track...We may have missed what the OP was really asking, at least the context.- They are posting in "embedded computing",- They are talking about a "Windows 10 Pentium computer"That sounds a bit odd. Might be some kind of SBC/industrial board with a Pentium CPU (which one?)If so, I doubt that would be a regular Windows 10 for desktop PC. I know there's been a stripped-down Win10 version for SBCs, but have never used it and don't know much about it. It possibly doesn't enforce updates, or even a link to a network, of any kind. I really don't know much about this, but if anyone knows anything about it?Anyway, we can see the demand was way too vague (too little information) to give any sensible answer (except that Win10 is a dog)

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 09, 2020, 06:04:56 pm
content: Quote from: dunkemhigh on March 09, 2020, 10:55:53 amI'm not a fan of many changes introduced with Windows 10, but people seem quite eager to get out the pitchforks. It's unfortunate nuance gets you classified as "the other camp" by both extremes, fanboys and haters. I'd say there's plenty to dislike without inflating or inventing issues.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 09, 2020, 06:17:03 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on March 09, 2020, 12:02:11 pmWindows 7 does install updates, unless you tell it not to. Windows 10 isn't very different, which was the point of the part of my post you omitted. Sleep and hibernation are still viable options. I have trouble coming up with use cases where those wouldn't suffice.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 09, 2020, 06:24:40 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on March 09, 2020, 02:48:01 pmFeature updates can take quite a bit of time but should happen every 6 months at most. One could argue that's too often and I'd be inclined to agree though it does seem the perception is worse than the actual impact. And to be fair, upgrading Windows 8 to 8.1 was of a similar magnitude and took a significant amount of time as well.

author: chriva
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2020, 06:57:52 am
content: (This only applies to pro and higher)run gpedit.msc and go through all the administration templates. Especially those that are update and power related.Also configure it not to change the shutdown options (replace shutdown with update and shutdown).This should apply to all versions:Configure windows update to deter feature updates for 365 days. That way you will only get one feature update a year instead of two and they'll have plenty of time to straighten the kinks that happens with every damn new version.Leave security updates and that as is. You'll only get one or two a week and it'll ask you if things are correctly configured in gpedit.Workaround on home is to google for register tweaks since all options are present there too. Just not configurable with a gui tool

author: Syntax Error
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2020, 10:07:42 am
content: There may be some other services running that are left hanging, preventing Windows from closing. Third party anti virus software is a prime suspect. PCs also ship with a disk load of manufacturer's bloatware, which causes all kinds of startup, runtime and shutdown issues.Do a thorough clear out of the services and settings before you spend good money.Google "how to speed up Windows shutdown"

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2020, 12:06:56 pm
content: It would be cool to have a mini UPS that utilizes super capacitors to give you 60 seconds.Just enough to save your work and shutdown.Because replacing SLA batteries every 2 years in a normal UPS just pisses me off.Sadly you can't just pull the SLA's out of a UPS and shove in some super caps. The super caps would only get maybe 10% their of capacity utilized and the UPS charging circuit would have a heart attack from the low ESR.You'd probably have to do some minor mods and rewrite the firmware on the micro to make it work.Maybe if you can find a newer UPS that takes raw 18650 cells, that might be better option and it would have a much better lifespan than SLA.I do have a vague memory that you could get a computer ATX power supply with built in lipo UPS. But i don't remember where i heard about it.Did i mention how much i hate SLA...

author: Jeroen3
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2020, 01:11:46 pm
content: Lots of complicated ideas when you could just buy this:Eaton Ellipse ECO 650 USBAnd Windows hibernates immediately when mains is removed, even with updates.All the supercapacitor or 18650 are nice, but you also need to have a USB driver to act like a battery or the pc won't know mains was removed.The SLA batteries in the eaton last years. Mine is 5 years old, still lasts 40 minutes.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2020, 04:20:12 pm
content: have fun collecting X number of lion 18650 every Y year of their lifespan...lipo price looks interesting too...Eaton is good but there are cheaper solution even on 1000VA line...

author: chriva
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2020, 04:47:32 pm
content: SLA and Lithium batteries have VERY different charging requirements so I really can't recommend conversions unless you modify the charging circuit and perform cell balancing.LIon batteries are far superior but they can also be very dangerous if you mistreat them. With great power comes great responsibility. No overcharging, no continuous trickle charging, abide their constant current and constant voltage requirements etc

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 28, 2020, 11:32:31 am
content: You can get lithium batteries in SLA form factor with built in charge circuitry. However they are ridiculously expensive