Universities: Imperial vs Southampton for Electronic Engineering - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: microbug
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2018, 09:08:05 pm
content: Hi all,I've just had my interview / visit day at Southampton and was very impressed at their fantastic facilities and enthusiastic students. I've got my Imperial interview coming up (and possibly one from Leeds — I need to sort out the date). What are your experiences with these universities? I'll have to choose between them at some point. Right now I'm leaning towards Southampton but I haven't been to Imperial's interview yet so it feels a bit unfair to decide properly yet.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2018, 10:27:05 pm
content: A difficult choice;they are both fine institutions! Full disclosure: I did electronics at Southampton, my father did chemical engineering at Imperial. I did not even look at Imperial, since I would have had to live at home.You should visit as many places as possible, since finding out what you don't want will enable you to understand what you do want.Have a look at the syllabus; does it contain what you think you will need in your career. Ditto about the non-academic pastoral aspects of student life.In the end you will only understand to what degree (no ho) it was right afterwards. Hopefully it will be mostly right, but there will always be "what if I had gone to the other place" doubts. Deal with it; there will be many more choice points like that in the rest of your life!BTW I was more than happy with Southampton, but that was 40 years ago, and you aren't me

author: chriswebb
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 31, 2018, 10:29:13 pm
content: What are the population sizes of these universities?I was thinking about replying to this because I have some extremely limited experience when I studied abroad at the University of Leeds for a semester, but you really aren't asking about Leeds, and I am not from the UK originally and I attended Leeds for CS/Maths so I am really not sure if my experience is valuable at all. However I will say that you need to make sure you are aware of any size differences between the schools. From my experience with Leeds, most of my classes were more than a 100 students which means big impersonal lectures. These personally were the worst way for me to learn, so I didn't enjoy the classroom experience as such. However at least the courses were a lot different to my home university. So I got to enjoy learning about things I wouldn't have been able to at home, not to mention being exposed to different culture, etc.I could actually go into more detail, but my experience is probably less valuable than people actually from the UK as well as those who actually went for EE.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2018, 10:44:14 pm
content: Quote from: chriswebb on January 31, 2018, 10:29:13 pmYour points are valid, particularly since you add the important caveats.I will emphasise your point that you aren't choosing a university, you are choosing a course at a university. Different universities are better/worse at different subjects. IC and Soton are both good for EE.One big change since I went to uni is the size of the population. For me there were ~100 people on the course and in lectures; for my daughter some of the lectures had 800(!) people.Work out how much "face time" you can have with the staff.Asklotsof "side" questions, e.g. "can I use the labs for my home projects?", "what happens if X", "how much choice do I have in courses?". Most of the answers won't be enlightening, but you can't predict which ones will be!

author: microbug
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2018, 11:17:07 pm
content: QuoteI've determined that not only can you use the labs for home projects at both unis, but at Imperial in some cases they'll even allocate you a bench that's yours and won't be touched when you aren't there. I was very happy to hear that. Courses are fairly similar; 2 years of compulsory modules and then pretty much free reign, allowing you to specialise in more electronics-y or computer sciencey areas. Group projects in every year.QuoteThat's a good point. I'll ask at Imperial — I got the impression that most lectures were fairly large but that tutorials were with <10 students and an academic. Both courses have many labs/contact hours (about 25/week — a lot for a university course). Southampton is definitely larger than Imperial, with 1200+ students in the ECS (Electronics & Computer Science) department alone.QuoteYep. I really didn't like Cambridge, having to do 2 years general engineering is a bummer since I know I want to do EE. The open day was really unfriendly and IMO they had a very arrogant attitude of 'the students will come to us', in comparison Imperial and Southampton both put in a very strong effort with more demos, actual current students present and real people presenting the talks (one of them at Cambridge was pre-recorded!). Plus I live there so any novelty of the colleges, punting, architecture etc. is long gone.QuoteI believe that the courses are a fairly even split between lectures, smaller group work and labs.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2018, 12:07:08 am
content: Quote from: microbug on January 31, 2018, 09:08:05 pmWhen you go to Imperial really look around the labs, talk to people, and try to gauge the atmosphere there. It may be different now, but when I went to college in the 70s Imperial's Electronic Engineering department had a very strange atmosphere. Nobody we talked to seemed to know about anything outside the one thing they were working on. I eventually went to UCL with a bunch of people who had rejected offers from Imperial because the place felt so odd during their tour.These days neither Imperial or UCL are really preparing people for a career in electronics. They are a stepping stone to jobs in areas like finance.

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2018, 12:50:05 am
content: Quote from: coppice on February 01, 2018, 12:07:08 amMy friends are an odd bunch, and I count quite a few Imperial graduates among them. They stick out as odder than the rest. So if Imperial graduates are a product of the institution then I suspect you're onto something.One thing to note about Imperial versus Southampton is that Imperial is essentially a science and technology institution. That can have a big effect on the range of people you meet, and learn about, and learn from. At Southampton you'll rub shoulders with people from all disciplines, not just 'sciencey' types. To my mind that's a big advantage. One thing university can do is broaden your education, and as us science and engineering types tend to have a naturally narrow focus that's a good thing.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2018, 01:23:15 am
content: Quote from: Cerebus on February 01, 2018, 12:50:05 amI went to the college with the greatest diversity of subjects of any college in the UK, and perhaps in the world. Any rubbing shoulders with non-sciency/non-engineeringy types was a rare event. Faculties, and even departments within them, can be very insular.

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2018, 03:05:18 am
content: Quote from: coppice on February 01, 2018, 01:23:15 amThat's why god invented beer and student bars. Also in my experience most of the girls were in non-engineering departments, which I personally found a grand encouragement to circulate outside my department. Accommodation can also mix things up, in my first year I shared with a biochemist, two chemists, a computer scientist, a metallurgist, a student of English literature and someone doing joint maths and education. That lot in turn led to an interest in mountain climbing, motorbiking and eating Chinese food, and a red headed lawyer girlfriend who in turn introduced me to people in the law and economics department and people who liked messing about in boats - oh, and more beer. I can barely imagine how I might have just stuck with people in my department.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2018, 11:55:15 am
content: Quote from: Cerebus on February 01, 2018, 03:05:18 amThis is an area where going to a central London college, like Imperial, UCL or Kings, is distinctly different from going to other UK colleges. Most London students live off campus, as there is only dormitory accommodation for a small percentage of students. That's not uncommon in the UK. However, renting a room in central London is extremely expensive, so most students are commuters, just like anyone else working in central London. This is very different from, say York, where my daughter is studying right now. Large numbers of students live off campus in York, but they live within 2 or 3km of the college, and are within walking distance of many other students. In London, after your college day is done, you get on a train and go far from other students. In a four year degree you might get one year in a dorm, mixing regularly with other students outside hours.

author: Fred27
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 01, 2018, 12:01:19 pm
content: I had a great time at Southampton but that was 25 years ago. Course was good but very maths focused. I ended up switching courses but that was more a reflection of my priorities than the course itself.Personally, I'd avoid a London university as lots of students don't live on campus. Even if you do, I don't think it had the same "community" feel.

author: microbug
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2018, 05:23:19 pm
content: I got an offer from Southampton today, feeling pretty good.QuoteI do get the impression that this has changed (for the better IMO), there was lots of time for labs in the example timetables and the professor who interviewed me said 'we don't make you do electronics for the sake of electronics' (i.e., they do projects involving lots of electronics instead).QuoteQuoteQuoteThanks, I see that there are lots of downsides to London. Another is just the air quality; coming from the suburbs of Cambridge I felt Southampton was much fresher than London as I went though on the tube. I'll see how my Imperial visit goes, they might have such a good department that it offsets that stuff. But right now I'm definitely planning on going to Southampton.

author: KJDS
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2018, 05:59:56 pm
content: If you want nightlife then Imperial, for sailing then Southampton is better.It's more important to get these priorities right.*wanders off mumbling about how the youth of today fail to work out these things on their own

author: richard.cs
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2018, 06:04:47 pm
content: My boss is a part-time ECS lecturer at Southampton* - if you have any specific questions I can ask them on your behalf.I've lived in/around Southampton for essentially my entire life so I can answer local-knowledge / area type questions if you have any. I didn't go to Southampton (I had an offer, but did Physics at Exeter instead) but I know quite a few people who did engineering there (fairly recently). No knowledge of Imperial at all, I didn't apply there, but ask away about Southampton.*I don't remember the title of his course but it's radio communications related.

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2018, 10:37:22 pm
content: Quote from: microbug on February 01, 2018, 05:23:19 pmIf air quality is an issue for you, either for pre-existing health conditions or ones you might develop, give Imperial a miss. It's trapped in a block between four busy roads with heavy, continuous, slow moving traffic. I'm used to the delights of London air and, even with that, I find the pollution in the vicinity of Imperial noticeable and noxious.

author: microbug
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 12, 2018, 09:56:03 am
content: Quote from: Cerebus on February 01, 2018, 12:50:05 amQuote from: coppice on February 01, 2018, 11:55:15 amThanks everyone for your input. I ended up getting offers from Imperial and Southampton, both for A*AA. I've just chosen Southampton as my firm and Leeds as my insurance (I went there in March — nice place but much smaller courses than Imperial/Soton so fewer choices for optional modules). As far as I can tell, the courses and tuition are pretty similar between Imperial and Soton, but Imperial is in the middle of London and to me that's a massive downside, especially for the reasons coppice and Cerebus mentioned above. Most of the accommodation at Soton is <1 mile from the ECS buildings.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 12, 2018, 10:49:52 am
content: Quote from: microbug on April 12, 2018, 09:56:03 amCongratulations and good luck. Either choice would have been right and wrong for different reasons.Two generic tips:don't expect to be able to sail through the course because (believe) you already know some of the stuff. I was lucky: that misapprehension was dispelled after 2 weeks, leaving me plenty of time to get my act togetherdon't think attending lectures means you will understand them well enough to get good grades at the end of the year. My technique was to scribble down what the lecturer was saying/drawing - and then complete rewrite them immediately afterwards. The repetition helped cement the knowledge in my thick skull, and it also revealed what I missed or didn't understand (and needed to understand). It also meant I had very good revision notes.

author: NivagSwerdna
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 12, 2018, 11:09:15 am
content: Quote from: microbug on April 12, 2018, 09:56:03 amWinner winner Chicken Dinner.Good luck with the grades! Get revising!

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 12, 2018, 01:01:14 pm
content: Quote from: microbug on April 12, 2018, 09:56:03 amI understand your choices, but they are a sad reflection on the state of London and the UK. When I went to university in the 70s hardly anyone who could get the grades would have chosen Soton over a world's top 10 place like Imperial. The government picked up the bill for the greater living costs of being in central London, and those costs were not out of control. Central London was a much nicer place to be as well. The environmental differences were not as distinct as today. The only real potential negative in those days was the far from campus living style for most people at Imperial, UCL and Kings. Some people are OK with that, and some really dislike it.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 12, 2018, 03:09:56 pm
content: Quote from: microbug on February 01, 2018, 05:23:19 pmSouthampton has fresh air, OK!It has the sort of winds we call "lazy winds" in Western Australia------"It's too lazy to go round you, so it goes right through you!"

author: nfmax
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 12, 2018, 07:03:52 pm
content: Congratulations on your offer, and I hope you will enjoy student life at Southampton as much as I did, all those years ago!

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 12, 2018, 08:39:22 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on April 12, 2018, 01:01:14 pmIt wasn't as simple as that back then, and probably isn't now.Firstly Southampton Electronics were top notch, and still are.Secondly you always have to fit the course with the individual.

author: gregariz
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 13, 2018, 02:33:56 am
content: Quote from: microbug on January 31, 2018, 11:17:07 pmI was the same but times have changed. Not to put a dampener on anything you have a passion for but electronics has been in decline for decades. It's been good to me but its come with a lot of stress plus there are only a couple of places in the world where the pay is good enough IMO to make it worthwhile. Those places you need advanced degrees: in the US where I am we hire fresh grads with a Bachelor degree as Technicians now. You won't be designing anything much with less than a Masters. So it's a long haul and away from home to make over 100K UKP.I honestly do not recommend it (and most other engineering) to anyone who asks me for advice. I personally will be telling my kids/have told my nephews to study Civil if they want a flexible career. Actually I am doing structural myself for when I get sick of corporate cube land. In Australia for example the number of Civil jobs is 10x the next form of engineering - and its mostly because we've become a service economy, where infrastructure and facilities are needed, and electronic gadgets are commodity items. Electronics can be done anywhere in the world, usually by the cheapest - and as a result wages and jobs have been disappearing. IMO in today's world Cambridge is right to do 2 years of general engineering for most kids. Calculating the stresses, materials and failure modes of a pier or a bridge or building can be just as mentally taxing as most areas of electronics. And at least you get to sit outside and watch your structure materialize.Having said that I will eventually leave it - electronics is still incredibly interesting and my workshop is better equipped than my multi-billion dollar day job company lab. So I'll always be doing it but probably there is a time period where it won't make me money (ie probably will get layed off during a downturn and won't get back in the industry full time). IMO the current crop of retirees that I see will probably be the last ones who make a complete career out of it - and most of them have already had period of 5-10 years of downtime due to layoffs in the last 20 years.

author: microbug
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 13, 2018, 09:26:21 am
content: Quote from: gregariz on April 13, 2018, 02:33:56 amI take your point, I'm really doing it because I'm passionate about the field. My impression from my various visits was that modern EE courses are quite broad; I'll be doing quite a lot of software/firmware/some HDL as well. The people who gave employment talks made it fairly clear that though some graduates end up doing "pure" EE, more do software in one form or another. I'm comfortable with either but I don't see as much of a need for formal education in software because it's so easy to find resources and get started yourself.The course I'm taking is 4 years with an integrated MEng.My backup plan is to do software if EE turns out to be a dead end, but I have to say the impression I've got so far is that this is not the case. I do obviously have some level of bias though

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 13, 2018, 10:02:34 am
content: Quote from: microbug on April 13, 2018, 09:26:21 amgregariz made a good point about the need not to be too narrow, but its hard to achieve a good balance between being narrow enough to have a useful depth of knowledge, and being broad enough not to be pigeon holed and quickly irrelevant. After committing 4 years of your life, and a lot of cash, to a degree you need it to be something that sets you up well for years to come. There isn't much actual electronics work left in the UK, so you probably either need to prepare yourself to leave the UK, or to work in another field. Today there still seem to be some embedded software opportunities in the UK, but who knows if they will last when the adjunct electronics work has gone. I don't know how practical it is to leave the UK as a fresh graduate these days. It used to be easy to get some experience in a company in the UK, and with that become attractive on the world market.Is your degree actually called "Electronic Engineering"? Most of them seem to be narrower than that these days. Something more focused, like "Electronic and Communications Engineering" seems to be a more typical title these days. By the time you are in your 4th year, the options you choose will be fairly narrow, and you may run into serious frustration. No university department is big enough to be able to offer specialist courses in a really wide range of electronics related topics. They generally focus on the active research areas in the department. If your college is not offering options that interest you in 3 years time, your 4th year might end up a serious compromise.

author: microbug
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 13, 2018, 10:08:00 am
content: Quote from: coppice on April 13, 2018, 10:02:34 amThis is the course I'm taking. See the Modules tab for options in years 3 and 4 (all modules in 1st and 2nd years are compulsory). The department that does EE at Soton is called ECS for Electronics and Computer Science — they're a little unusual in combining the two, but it means I get more computer science / software engineering options.Edit: the specialist "sub-courses" (like MEng Electronic Engineering with Artificial Intelligence) can be chosen in Year 2. They do change the name of your degree but you don't have to specialise, you can just pick modules you're interested in for a general MEng Electronic Engineering degree.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 13, 2018, 10:28:56 am
content: Quote from: microbug on April 13, 2018, 10:08:00 amEven though the course is called EE, options look far from general. They seem to broadly focus on the kinds of things that still offer some opportunities in the UK, which should be a generally good thing. There don't seem to be any RF options, but there isn't much RF work left in the UK. There is "Radio Communications Engineering", but I think that should be a systems course. They have 2 fibre optics courses in the 4th year, which is an interesting choice when there's really nothing left of that industry in the UK - even though it started here.Quote from: microbug on April 13, 2018, 10:08:00 amThat merging is quite common. I also know people in the US who have a "Computer Science" degree who mostly studied electronics, because that's what interested them after the 1st year. There was a lot of blending of departments in their university, and taking nothing but electronics options was a possibility for them.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 13, 2018, 11:37:42 am
content: Quote from: microbug on April 13, 2018, 10:08:00 amDon't fall into the trap of obsessing over what you have and haven't chosen (past tense).You have done some decent research, come to a conclusion, and made a perfectly reasonable and justifiable choice based on the information available at the time.That's all anyone can hope to do. Now get on with the course!You will, I am sure, continually re-evaluate future options in the light of new information that becomes available. That's adult life, where "success" and "failure" are not clearly definedOne concept you might like to ponder when making choices, is that every choice you makewill closesome doors. (E.g. electronics means you aren't going to become a doctor!). So think about what doors you don't mind closing - that may help rule out some options.It is also probably worth taking a limited number of non-electronic courses. I've found a one term course in psychology surprisingly useful, ditto business. You'll skim over the principal topics and concepts, and it can provide a framework for recognising/thinking about things you will see in your working life.You will probably have "what would have happened if I chose the other option" thoughts; mostly ignore those - except as they might help future choices.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 13, 2018, 12:59:06 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on April 13, 2018, 11:37:42 amOf the people I started with 2 didn't finish their electronics degrees. One dropped out for what I think were family reasons. The other transferred to medical school in the first year.

author: gregariz
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 13, 2018, 06:53:32 pm
content: Quote from: microbug on April 13, 2018, 09:26:21 amYou are doing it for the right reasons - if I had to suggest anything I would look for an "Electronics and Electrical" engineering degree with lots of electives as this provides you the opportunity to break into the infrastructure industry ie. Building services etc. A pure electronics degree can lock you out of that, not because you don't have a clue, just because Universities are graduating far too many these days so if a company needs a Power Engineer they will find an "Electrical" graduate without needing to look at "Electronics" graduates.As a British/Australian working in the US (triple national - lived and studied in all 3 places through to PhD) I can say that the value of British University engineering degrees have declined due to the Engineering councils refusal to overhaul requirements in the 90's. There has also been a view taken by the council that tradesman are engineers - which is out of step with the rest of the world. A UK BEng is now officially regarded by international accord as a "Technology degree" (Incorporated engineer) for which extra study and experience is required to become Chartered. The UK MEng is on a par with the 4 year US and Australian BEng and BSEE which grant full professional status immediately. Under the Australian Qualifications Framework Australian Masters degrees now represent a minimum of 5 years of study - on par with the US - and no undergraduate Masters are available. As such only experience is required for chartered membership. In addition UK chartered members are not automatically granted that status anymore under the accord with comparable orgs overseas - reason being that there was a period whereby it was possible to become chartered in the UK via something like a HND and extensive experience. All UK candidates now need an assessment as to their qualifications.So you have a couple of options - ie. If you choose to do a UK BSc or BEng in electronics rather than a MEng you then have the option of an MSc in say Power Engineering ie BEng(Electronics)+MSc(Power Eng) in the same 4 years - something to thing about that may provide you some diversity without locking you into something narrow.As far as the comment that most electronics graduates work in Software - that has been true for many years. At the beginning it was by choice. Now most electronics graduates work in Software out of necessity simply because they can't find an electronics job. When we say software we mean web programming - as this now constitutes the vast majority of IT work.Now if I were you, and the advice I would give my kids if they were set on the same path, is do a MEng in "Electronics and Electrical" or if that can't be found do BEng/BSc in Electronics and a MSc in Electrical. This keeps you well in the running with a job in the Service Sector and still lets you go after pure electronics should that materialize.

author: gregariz
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 13, 2018, 07:12:41 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on April 13, 2018, 12:59:06 pmJust to give you an idea of how things have changed - of the people I started with only 5 finished, and of those 2 were diploma advanced year entrants. Now as part of some of the subjects I study in the US - I am running a GPA of 4.5 (out of 4) due to the fact that now I am able to get "extra marks" in each subject by completing "extra assignment questions". In the UK hardly anyone used to get into the 80% range and I was the only one to graduate in electronics with a 1st in that year. The previous year the only honours eligible candidates (2 off) graduated with 3rd's. So now its a business and giving the customer what they want is important. The downside is the flood of graduates of course which has placed extreme stress on graduate employment. The last job I was involved with interviewing we had over 900 applicants, and the fellow we hired had spent 6 years working in a bar after graduating before he was successful. Hence my pragmatic advice regarding doing a course suitable for the economy as it is now.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 13, 2018, 09:12:56 pm
content: Quote from: gregariz on April 13, 2018, 07:12:41 pmSince the great expansion of UK universities in the 60s there have been quite a few universities where much less than half of those starting an engineering course actually completed it. There have also been top notch places in high demand, where they just don't accept you unless you have clearly shown you have the intellectual capacity to finish, and only a couple of people dropped out for personal reasons.Do you mean that you hired someone 6 years out of college, with no relevant experience? If you had 900 applicants, and that was the best you could do it might be all the people with good experience had a job.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 13, 2018, 09:19:11 pm
content: Quote from: gregariz on April 13, 2018, 06:53:32 pmThe 3 years of a UK bachelor course are not comparable to the 4 years of an Australian or US bachelor course. In the UK people study in high school for one more year, and spend one less year in college. Their total education is similar. I recently moved from HK to the UK. Over the last decade HK has transitioned from a UK style system to an Australian/US style one. It simply means they had to build an extra set of classrooms at the universities, and youngsters spend what would previously have been their last year at school as their first year at university. The end point when they graduate hasn't really changed.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 13, 2018, 09:25:26 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on April 13, 2018, 11:37:42 amI once met a cardiologist who had retrained as a doctor after getting a PhD in EE, so you can always find ways to change career and choose different paths if the one you are on doesn't work out.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 13, 2018, 09:55:20 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on April 13, 2018, 09:25:26 pmYou can always find a few cases like that, but its much more common to find the guy running a pub or a car dealership has an EE degree,Why is it that those two occupations seem to attract EEs, at least in the UK?

author: gregariz
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 13, 2018, 10:44:25 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on April 13, 2018, 09:19:11 pmFor old degrees I would agree that is is the case (English degrees) - Scottish is a K12 system so its always been a 3+1 system.However the various professional institutions have changed their feelings that the 1st year done as A levels (13th year) is the equivalent to 1st year Engineering. I had the head of IEAust told me this personally (and he was a UK engineer) whereas once upon a time great A-levels were going into a BEng it would have been acceptable. Now that the UK has too many universities the entrances have lowered to the point that its hard to claim they are equivalent. But it's not my policy as it is now enshrined within the reciprocal agreements that a UK BEng is not equivalent, hence the MSc(Prof Eng) degrees that have popped up to satisfy CEng requirements.

author: gregariz
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 13, 2018, 10:56:39 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on April 13, 2018, 09:12:56 pmThe great expansion has happened all around the world. Anyone who has been around the sector long enough - including the academics themselves will say that standards have dropped, along with things like english requirements. This goes hand in hand (or is perhaps because of) with the cutting of tax dollars to the University sector (thankyou Maggie). Universities are under enormous pressure to both admit as many students as possible and also to pass them. Whereas several decades ago university funding was guaranteed and no such pressure was in place. There was a nice series written by an ex academic in the 80's when Maggie was making university cuts called 'A very peculiar practice'. Some of it is on youtube. I feel like I lived that life.Yeah we hired him over the other 900 applicants even though he had been working at the bar for 6 years. Why?I have this policy that if possible I will only hire local kids - I intensely dislike the idea that a local kid is overlooked for a post in favour of pulling the cream from around the world - its a grossly unfair system. If you can't get a job in your own homeland than its a pretty shit global system we have - University should not be an immigration system - some of that stems from my own difficulty in accessing work in Australia and the UK even though I was a top student. Besides that his dad also worked at the facility so it was a no brainer. He actually turned out to be a great hire. Local kids often are in my experience.

author: gregariz
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 13, 2018, 11:07:32 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on April 13, 2018, 09:55:20 pmIt's because it was and maybe still is often a very stressful job - as UK industry has declined in the 80's and 90's - engineers were under pressure to do the near impossible. As businesses were closing one after the other the last thing someone who had worked so hard in an engineering degree wanted was to go into another environment with the same problems and different people. When I was at Uni in London doing business (years later) the professor made the off hand remark that there must be something better for engineers to do in the economy than run B&B's in Cornwall. But they had no answer. In America there is a group of UK engineers I regularly run into in the age range of about 50-65 who, and I don't use this word lightly, *hate*, the UK work environment and will not even consider returning to retire. These, I suspect were from that era of closures. More recently when I visit the UK and meet younger engineers I don't see the same disdain for the place - but they have become conditioned to low wages.

author: nfmax
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 18, 2018, 09:22:56 am
content: Quote from: IanB on April 13, 2018, 09:25:26 pmAnd a friend of mine with a first degree in Chemistry & Computer Science has recently qualified as a medical doctor (with an intervening MSc in another subject, unrelated to both)