... - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / projects

author: cleaningOut
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 04, 2015, 01:37:34 am
content: \...

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 04, 2015, 02:07:15 am
content: i want a 6mm thick phone or tablet WITHOUT ugly lumps for batteries in their back.Custom batteries rule !

author: pmbrunelle
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 04, 2015, 02:46:56 am
content: Quote from: cleaningOut on December 04, 2015, 01:37:34 amConsumers buy this rubbish. At a minimum, don't spend money on this non-serviceable environmentally unfriendly stuff.For example, I bought a brand-new electric stove last summer in 2014. On the front panel, it has five knobs, two neon indicator lamps, and one rocker switch. In 50 years, if my children still have the stove, they will be able to debug/repair it easily with the complete schematic diagram that was included. No proprietary software running on some microcontroller. Good luck replacing a fried microcontroller 50 years down the road.I don't have a wireless keyboard or mouse; the only maintenance it needs is cleaning the ball once in a while. My automobile has no electronics which require the dealer to connect a proprietary scan tool to do stuff.I made sure that the television I bought (in 2014) had analog audio outputs, so I could connect my own audio system of any kind.No analog audio outputs was an automatic dealbreaker. Analog audio will always be a viable standard (all music eventually is converted to analog at some point in the chain). In 50 years, I don't have that guarantee with HMDI...The Earth has piles of waste because people buy useless stuff. Unfortunately, sometimes I buy useless stuff too, and partake in this drug of consumerism... When consumers will not speak with their wallets, and will happily buy replacement cellphones every two years, there is no incentive to design for serviceability/long life. Actually, it's more profitable to cause obsolescence.Stop buying locked-in junk.

author: pmbrunelle
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 04, 2015, 08:41:00 am
content: If I could buy a cellphone with two 18650 cells, I would. I consider the standardization/repaireability/environmental benefits to outweigh my desires for a slim form factor. Right now I'm using a used flip phone that I obtained used in 2011 or so; when it quits, my plan is to replace it with another used flip phone.I would estimate the work to replace/reverse engineer a bricked microcontroller on a stove to be minimum 100 man-hours. Maybe you find it's no big deal, but I could think of better things to do. In reality, there's a good chance I would be too lazy to deal with a bricked microcontroller, and send the 99% functional stove to the scrap just because of one bad part. I don't think these basic embedded systems are a major reliability issue, but it's the principle.As for the mouse, laser might work better, but I don't know what I'm missing, so I can't complain.Actually, I think the concept of the multiple voice coils is cool! I am not stuck on the idea of analog, but I don't like HDMI because I don't trust standards that cost royalties... In terms of digital audio, I would find the pulse-coded modulation over optical or coax to be satisfactory.Software bloat is another issue. You cannot do much more with a computer today than you could 15 years ago. Software "progress" is backwards. As time passes, you can do the same things you could do before, except that more capable hardware is required. Seems like a non-stop bandwagon... My Windows 7 computer has the Microsoft nagware which is offering the Windows 10 for free, but I am holding off on this, because it will just render my hardware obsolete for no benefit to me. Eventually I will change to Windows 10 when the virus/security patches are no longer offered for 7.For the stuff I work on, we design for a minimum 10-year service life. I guess I better be happy with myself...Humanity will probably consume itself out of its own existence, so should we just accept it?

author: Chris Jones
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 04, 2015, 02:04:52 pm
content: Postal authorities and couriers are now being so annoying about lithium cells (even coin cells that were previously regarded as ok since the eighties) that I consider other options even though they are technically inferior. (I know that strictly the ICAO regulations have some exemptions so that people can actually buy the latest icrap, but just try posting one overseas from Australia.)If you can make something run off a single AA Eneloop NiMH then that can be a lot less hassle if you intend to send it anywhere by airmail. In some cases a supercapacitor will even do, and nobody has thought to over-regulate the transport of those yet.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 04, 2015, 02:13:10 pm
content: People don't care about things like cellphones.Even if they only last a year or two the replacement phone will have a bigger screen, be thinner, more fashionable, etc.Theywantnew things. It gives them status.A few engineers grumbling about non-replaceable batteries isn't going to make cellphone manufacturers change their ways.

author: pelud
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 04, 2015, 04:40:48 pm
content: I think the LiIon battery problem will fix it self for one reason, and one reason only: Cost.18650 cells are rapidly becoming ubiquitous, and thus cheap. At that point a manufacturer can just say, this device requires four 18650 cells, and it becomes not their problem anymore. No more cell balancing charge circuits, no more custom battery pack design, and no more BOM cost entry. I think at some point this will out-weigh the lost revenue and vendor lock-in, if any, from some proprietary battery replacement charge.

author: SL4P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 04, 2015, 10:41:13 pm
content: Manufacturers often make very little margin on the product - to be sales competitive.They expect to sell perhaps two extra 'custom' batteries over the life of the device if they're lucky - at a handsome markup

author: DanielS
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 04, 2015, 11:27:39 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on December 04, 2015, 02:13:10 pmThere are practical limits to how thin and large phones can be, which is why phone manufacturers have to offer ~5" devices for people who don't like carrying huge phones and ~6" devices for people who want them. Personally, even 4.5" is already pushing the limits of what I do not mind shoving in my pockets. Likewise, how thin they can be is limited by the digitizer and display assembly, structural frame, PCB with components, the battery, rear cover and cameras. Under 8mm, the edge starts to really bite into fingers and gets uncomfortable if you need to hold the device for more than a few minutes at a time.The way some mobile device manufacturers have been struggling to maintain sales momentum over the past two years seems to indicate that many people are starting to keep their devices for two or more years. When I compare my 2012 N7 which I originally paid $225 for to everything else currently available under $250, I see very little worth upgrading to. While there are some models with much better specs at least on paper, all those I have tried so far had deal-breaking flaws, the most common of which being glitchy touch detection. For example, the $150 Acer Iconia 840FHD looks great in theory but it has laggy, glitchy touch input and Acer appears to have quit updating the firmware at 4.4.3 mere months after launch. It isn't just cheap Chinese brand either: I ran into touch glitches on all of Samsung's sub-$250 tablets I tried too.Quote from: SL4P on December 04, 2015, 10:41:13 pmOn tons of modern phones, tablets and thin laptops which are all snapped and glued together, the batteries are simply not meant to be user-serviceable. Trying to change them yourself if you do not know exactly what you are doing may cost you a new front panel assembly from cracking the front glass while prying it off from the one-piece casing, all to save 0.5mm on total thickness.

author: SL4P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 04, 2015, 11:31:03 pm
content: ...and these are the products where the lifetime profit margins have to be sold with the device.

author: eas
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 05, 2015, 01:38:36 am
content: Quote from: pelud on December 04, 2015, 04:40:48 pmI don't think so. Where to start...18650s have had a long run, but their former stronghold powering laptops is well on its way to switching to other form factors, particularly custom pouch cells.The large primary market in 18650s for laptops helped the form factor catch on in other niches.The most notable, was probably Tesla, which realized it could bootstrap an electric car company off the 18650 is likely to move to a similar, but different form factor in the next few years.A lot of flashlights also ended up using 18650 cells (which conveniently fit in place of two lithium primaries) due to availability, cost and form factor. Vaping followed and brought with it larger volumes than flashlights. These markets have been served largely by a grey-market, and various middlemen because, for one thing, the cell manufacturers don't want the liability that come with their cells being used in poorly specified and tested devices.Obviously, some device manufacturers either don't know, or don't care about the potential liability of making devices that take any old 18650 cell.I think though, that its unlikely that 18650 cells and devices that take them are going to become truly ubiquitous, not in the same way as devices that take AA cells, or devices with custom battery packs because there is no one big enough, with enough to gain, to help make that market. The Sony, LG and Samsung's of the world will keep spitting out 18650s as long as doing so is more profitable than scrapping the equipment and repurposing the real estate. They'll bring out new 18650 models with better characteristics as is practical, but their real investments are going to be in stuff with higher margins, likely into custom form factors.Various second tier companies may produce 18650s for even longer, perhaps even acquiring equipment when other manufactuers close down or retool their old 18650 lines, but their business is bleeding old things dry, not breathing new life into them.Among the second tier companies are various Chinese manufacturers. Their might be a narrow window for a few of them to try and make consumer 18650s common place, but ultimately, their domestic market is going to grow less and less tolerant of dangerous products, and they are going to chase higher margins as well.As long as there is a market for better, smaller, faster devices, its going to be hard for a new li-ion battery standard to take hold.What I think is more likely is that, as major product niches mature, longevity / durability will become bigger selling points (as they have with cars, for example). Device designs may shift the tradeoffs they make between battery capacity, charge time, and battery durability.Probably more importantly though, now that vehicles and fixed energy storage applications are driving much of the growth in the rechargeable battery market, durability/lifespan is already becoming more important again, and those improvements will be available for designers of consumer electronics when/if durability becomes a bigger selling point.

author: TiN
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 05, 2015, 03:43:37 am
content: pmbrunelleWe can simplify discussion to just a "How many 50-year old devices you are using now?". Or can be simpler, even 30 year old electronics?I bet engineers designing tube gear were thinking same, "Who cares these little unrepairable transistor stuff, when we have tube lamp, which any glassshop and metalsmith can do."

author: DanielS
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 05, 2015, 05:49:47 am
content: Quote from: TiN on December 05, 2015, 03:43:37 amI wouldn't expect phones and tablets to last 20+ years since WiFi, cellular, USB and other standards needed to use them rarely last that long. But 10 years with little more than battery swaps would not sound too unreasonable.

author: TiN
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 05, 2015, 06:36:19 am
content: You do realize, that USB and WiFi standards are in fact already 20 year old, right? Cellular is another 10 year older.Usually new technology and standards as result developed on base of previous ones, as a evolution.Not saying that making electronics in one sealed black box is a good idea, but there is fine balance somewhere in between, keeping both innovative designs and serviceability in mind. Noone thinking of repairing modern CPU and graphics controller chip today, while back in the days, when it was all discrete logic on PCB it was common practice.QuoteThat was exactly the thinking of T&M gear engineers, having us replacing dead NVRAMs and batteries holding calibration memory/settings in old but functional otherwise oscilloscopes, analyzers, DMMs. Some of the instruments don't have modern replacement, so usual motto "ditch old POS obsolete gear, get new one from the shop" does not apply.

author: eas
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 05, 2015, 07:31:49 am
content: Quote from: TiN on December 05, 2015, 03:43:37 amSome people weren't too happy about integrated circuits either. Especially LSI and up. You'd have to replace the whole chip!

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 05, 2015, 08:14:13 am
content: Quote from: TiN on December 05, 2015, 03:43:37 amRight at this moment,I am using a 3-4 year old laptop,where I had to replace the silly "barrel type" power connector,both on the computer & the charger,because there is very little standardisation of these,& I didn't want to buy the "correct" barrel connector for the lappy,plus buy a new charger----aaaarrrrgggghhhh!But you really mean,do I have 30year old equipment that I use?OK,all my Ham Radio equipment is 30+ years old (except for a Quansheng handheld 2m radio).My Tektronix 7613 is around 40,the Leader LSG-11 is 50,the Levell audio generator around 35,a "Grid Dip Oscillator",probably around 55( though maybe that doesn't count,as I modified it to use FETs a few years back).I also have a BWD 'scope which is 40+,a HP function generator,30+,but they are in pieces at the moment.My Weller WTCP iron is probably 30+.I have no requirement for 50 year life of any new stuff,because I won't be around.Tubes were,& are,a precision made product,using processes which are unattainable by "any glass shop and metalsmith".OK,people have built tubes at home,transistors,too,but all of them would agree that the techniques for building them in commercial quantities are not available to other than proper tube factories.By the way,who do you think designed early,& even later,transistor circuits?Those same design Engineers,that's who!

author: pmbrunelle
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 05, 2015, 05:29:08 pm
content: Lets see what kind of old/retro stuff I own... Actually, not too much, since I moved out from my parents place not too long ago. So lets rephrase this to old stuff I use regularly, which may/may not belong to the parents:Most of my kitchen knives/implements I bought from someone at a yard sale, who claimed that the stuff was in their family for a a long time (including some knives which appeared to have been sharpened so many times that half the blade width was gone).My DTMF landline telephone (which I use almost daily) is mostly discrete construction, on single-sided boards. Lots of TO-92 transistors, axial-leaded 1/4W resistors mounted Japanese-style.My father and I still use the 3/8" square drive socket wrench set he bought to use on his first car in 1976. If we ever break a socket (which happens occasionally) we can easily buy a replacement socket, because the 3/8" square drive standard is still up-to-date.An important percentage of my LEGO collection is about 50 years old; bricks that my father had as a boy, still compatible with bricks today.Weller 140/100 Watt soldering gun, purchased in 1969. I use this regularly, and we buy brand-new replacement tips from the hardware store.Micronta 22-220 that I use as my primary multimeter. I don't have a digital multimeter. Probes are banana plugs; banana plugs are still a valid standard.Table fan from my grandmother, age unknown, probably around 50 years. Still works with the original power cord. Sure, today the neutral blade is made wider than the active, but at least todays' plugs are still backwards compatible with that old table fan. Used regularly for drying wet paint on freshly painted parts.The hacksaw that I use was my grandfather's. I can still buy replacement blades for it, thanks to the standard which has not been rendered obsolete.My primary daily driver(8 months a year) which I purchased in 2008 car is a model year 1985. I have no plans of ever selling this car. Very little rubbish on it, no ABS, no CAN bus. I haven't seen all parts of it, but for example, the wiper control board is single or double-sided (don't remember). No buried multilayer signal traces. This means I can patch anything that goes wrong (lifted pad, whatever) with a wire jumper.I don't necessarily dislike LSI stuff, but obviously BGA packages are on my hate list.Obviously, as the more I age, the age of my oldest posessions will also increase. If I have children, and I want them to inherit my stuff, I had best purchase quality items that are repairable. I expect things to last. How is this unreasonable?

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 05, 2015, 06:56:47 pm
content: Can beat you on the phone, my one is a 1939 Ericsson phone, which has absolutely nothing semiconductor in it, only transformers, resistors, capacitors and a carbon granule microphone. Still works on a POTS line after a modification from local battery to line power use.

author: saturation
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2015, 02:49:09 pm
content: Avoid products with custom or non-removeable batteries. Make that one of your purchase criteria. If not avoidable, see if there are alternative replacement parts. I do this to extend the working life of anything I buy.E.g. smartphones are typically built with battery's not meant to be user serviceable, but before getting a particular model, check 3rd party support for aftermarket batteries and replacement kits.Devices that are not so compactly designed, such as T&M gear, often have enough chassis space to mcgyver failed parts that will work like new, if the device is worth salvaging, e.g., Fluke DMMs.Black and Decker lithium dustbusters have no sold replacement batteries, but the battery pack is made of in series cells in a user friendly case I might add. But you'd have to know what you're doing to make a replacement pack but this wear item was DFR. I have not yet reach EOL on these cells, but I checked the packs serviceability [ its weak point] before I bought it. The only other failure point is the motor, but its duty cycle is so low that dustbuster motors almost never fail relative to the battery.

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2015, 03:46:27 pm
content: Here's an interesting datapoint: a lot of the generic Chinese Android phones based on Mediatek platform use much the same (replaceable) batteries, probably because that's what the reference design used and they didn't bother changing it.And here's an iPhone clone with a replaceable battery:You can see the small latches on the side that are operated via the sliding lever; it's not just a press/snap-fit. Effort was clearly spent on engineering this mechanism. At 7.9mm thick this phone is thinner than an iPhone 4 (9.3mm) and only 0.3mm more than an iPhone 5 (7.6mm), both of which don't have replaceable batteries. If some Chinese company could do it, why couldn't Apple...? DFR is not hard - the companies just don't want to do it.

author: saturation
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2015, 04:07:11 pm
content: Yep, you can pretty much design anything you want, so the non-serviceable battery is likely "DSL" designed for specified life.In Asia and many parts not Western, replaceable batteries is a selling point as the market prefers such designs. They eventually will fail from something else, but not the battery. Cellphone techs are so prolific and more open than USA, that even if they made non-user serviceable whatever but someone can figure out a fix, the techs will do it, its been done from batteries, new firmware, unlocking etc.,Quote from: amyk on December 06, 2015, 03:46:27 pm

author: DanielS
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2015, 06:06:58 pm
content: Quote from: TiN on December 05, 2015, 06:36:19 amYou aren't going to use HSPA+/LTE, USB2/3/3.1/Type-C, Android 5.x/6.x, 802.11 n/ac, etc. on a 20 years old phone. It will still make GSM calls but today, you would likely have a hard time making people choose to use a GSM/SMS-only device even if you paid them to give up their smartphone.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2015, 06:28:36 pm
content: Quote from: DanielS on December 06, 2015, 06:06:58 pmAll still developments on the base technology, not a really new thing there aside from the benefit of faster processors, cheaper memory and die size shrinks to reduce power and size. The faster data rates come from the ability to shove what used to be a rack full of equipment onto a single chipset then later on a single die, and then to do it in mass production to get economies of scale.

author: timb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2015, 06:44:22 pm
content: Quote from: amyk on December 06, 2015, 03:46:27 pmI bet that phone feels cheap as hell, too. I'm sure pushing on the back panel will cause it to bend inwards. Not to mention the rattling from those latches.The iPhone is a precision engineered and assembled device with a battery twice as big as the one in that clone. (You can fit a bigger battery in a device when you don't need room for latches and contacts.)Plus, the battery in the iPhone *is* replaceable. It's just not designed to be swapped out daily.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2015, 06:57:07 pm
content: Some just make it really hard by using so much glue that removal of the battery packs means destruction of either the phone, the pouch cells or both.

author: DanielS
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2015, 08:23:30 pm
content: Quote from: SeanB on December 06, 2015, 06:28:36 pmLet me put it another way: your old phones are not going to do you any good as cell carriers discontinue support for old RF standards to repurpose the spectrum for modern ones. LTE and HSPA+ are not backwards-compatible with GSM, Edge and other 1G/2G technologies. Many of those older standards did not last 20 years.While USB might still be here today, the USB3 spec runs on a set of additional dedicated signals and the Type-C spec adds a bunch of extra signals including a second set of USB3 RX and TX pairs. For most intents and purposes, USB3/3.1 are a completely different specification from USB1/1.1/2: the only signals they have in common in the USB3 A/B and Type-C connectors are power and ground.

author: DanielS
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2015, 02:42:24 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on December 06, 2015, 08:29:19 pmI would not really call USB3 backwards-compatible with USB2 since they use completely separate connector pins and wires. They are two similar but completely independent protocols bundled inside the same connectors and cables, be it 3.0 Type-A/B or Type-C. USB3 even has its own separate device detection scheme using termination detection on the USB3 RX/TX pairs to enable USB3-only device enumeration. You could probably hack together a USB3 splitter cable to connect both a USB2 and USB3 device to the same USB3 host port.The only reason USB3 is "backwards compatible" is because current-gen hardware is expectedbut not requiredto implement both USB2 and USB3 support.A few years from now, we'll probably see yet another USB port specification specifically for USB3 and beyond to ditch the Type-C bloat.

author: Alex Eisenhut
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2015, 03:42:56 am
content: Quote from: TiN on December 05, 2015, 03:43:37 amQuote from: TiN on December 05, 2015, 03:43:37 am

author: DanielS
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2015, 03:52:09 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on December 07, 2015, 02:58:38 amWith USB3, the host/hub senses terminations on the USB3 data lines to detect new devices, sends a training pattern on the TX pair for the client to lock its PLL to, and enumeration proceeds at full USB3 speed from there, no USB2 involved. Putting a transformer in the path might play numbers on the chips' termination detection circuitry though. Corning's USB3 optical cables sound interesting for that application but the B-side of the cable is powered from the host over #28 wires, so no isolation there.If you look at diagrams of chips used in USB3 hubs, the USB2 and USB3 functions are completely independent blocks except for shared power budget and supervisor microcontroller.http://www.genesyslogic.com/en/product_view.php?show=26

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2015, 04:59:09 am
content: Quote from: timb on December 06, 2015, 06:44:22 pmIt's stainless steel, not aluminium, so it's stiffer (and somewhat heavier) than you'd expect. I have one, it feels nice and solid like a real iPhone, but a bit heavier. Stainless is also harder than aluminium so it's not as easily scratched.As for the battery being "twice as big"? Completely false:iPhone5: 1440mAhiPhone6: 1810mAhJiayu G5: 2000mAhand there's even a 3000mAh option which needs a bigger rear cover, try doingthatwith an iPhone!The amount of space an extra latching mechanism takes is negligible. So is any thickness increase, since the removable batteries are exactly the same sort of lipo pouch cells as the nonremovable ones. Thus, I'd say the explanation about being able to fit a bigger battery in a phone if it's not removable is complete bullshit the marketing department made up. They just don't want to, so they can charge you more to replace them and force obolescence.Quote from: blueskull on December 06, 2015, 04:22:01 pmThe ones with a removable back but non-removable battery (under asecondback cover) are bad enough... it gains nothing for the manufacturer nor the user because now the back cover is redundant and just adds thickness. Making it an actual removable pack just makes it seem like they're trolling. Like I said, forced obolescence.

author: timb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2015, 05:20:56 am
content: Quote from: amyk on December 07, 2015, 04:59:09 amSomehow I doubt that's actually a 2000mAH battery. But then again, maybe the phone is bigger than it looks? Hard to judge from those pictures. I'd be interested in seeing some performance reports on it, either way.As for the latch and connectors taking up more space, it is true of laptop computers. Think about all the extra space the plastic housing of the battery pack, plus release latch on the computer itself takes up. Not to mention the fact it's filled with 18650 cells, which aren't optimal from a space configuration. Now compare that to a custom molded LiPo battery that fills every available inch.Anyway, I've got an iPhone 5S the day it came out. Still using the same unit, never replaced the battery and I'm still getting basically the same battery life. These modern LiPo batteries are good for 500+ cycles and when I do need to replace it, it'll take me 20 minutes.If I need more runtime, I'd just slap on one of those battery cases. Your phone is thicker (even thicker with the extended battery) and heavier anyway, so I'm not really missing anything.Don't get me wrong, if you like being able to swap your battery, that's great. Not everyone wants or needs that, though. The last time I needed to regularly swap batteries I was using a Motorola MicroTAC on an AMPS network.Another reason for a sealed phone is water and dust proofing. The iPhone 6 for example is water resistant. There's a video floating around of a guy on a call with someone dunking his 6 in a pitcher of water. He keeps talking for 15 seconds and pulls out completely unharmed. Kind of hard (but not impossible) to do with a removable battery.Edit: If you're talking about an iPhone 6 or 6S sized phone, there's no reason Apple couldn't do it if they wanted to. I was talking about the 5S and even 4 style phones, which were much smaller. You couldn't make them nearly as thin (at the time) with a removable battery. There's a lot of stuff inside them and every mm matters.