Job Woes.... - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Christopher
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2014, 05:35:16 pm
content: Hi..Some Background. I have been in my job in a medium-sized factory (~150 employees) for about a year and a half now. Before that I was doing the same kind of thing, mainly software and test equipment for microprocessor devices.I am a Junior in a Test Engineering Department (6 people and a manager) focusing on Qualification and Test Equipment design for power supplies. I am a young, ambitious person who listens carefully to my elders and learns a lot from what I do. I prefer to jump into something I don't know and just get on with it.Another Junior (A couple of years older than me) who's dad is the boss of another department (hmmm...) who doesn't know as much as me, still asks basic questions like what gauge cable to use for a certain current, how to use a mosfet to switch a relay on, why do we need back-EMF diodes etc, is paid more than me. He is on his phone a lot and doesn't put a lot of effort in.He has been developing a product with a PIC in, when I am drilling holes in plastic and metals, and not being used to my full potential.... He asks me for help with his PIC code constantly (which is only switching FETs on and off depending on a certain input) and this is his first big PIC project when I have done a lot of smaller PIC projects (more complicated ones in my spare time and at my previous job) without any help... Somehow he's more senior than me, even though I don't know a lot about electronics, I have the enthusiasm to want to learn more, whereas after a College course, he doesnt know why we need bypassing/filter capacitors on ICs...I recently had an appraisal, and I was told I'm doing well just keep doing as I'm doing. I have asked what I can to for a better pay (Currently £15,000, about that of a window cleaner in the UK).Every time one of the production test jigs goes tits up, I'm the first call of the boss to look at it and fix it, which is a good thing...Enough ranting. How do you deal with a shitty job? I keep telling myself to grin and bare it every day, and that soon another project will come that's a lot better. There are no jobs in Electronics in my area, and I look every day.Sorry if this doesn't make too much sense and is all over the place. That's how my life feels at the moment.

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 21, 2014, 06:45:37 pm
content: Two pieces of advice.First, the best way to climb the corporate latter (I mean in terms of pay and responsibilities) is to change your job. Partly because most people are afraid of change so they get comfortable and stay in the same job for years, and partly because when you go to a new company, it is a clean slate. Just like getting a new girlfriend. The old girlfriend might know you as a lazy person who is a bit too jealous and drinks too much beer... but to someone you just, you can be anything - you can be a super-fit motivated go-getter who only drinks on holidays. It's a fresh start. Same with jobs. It's all about the confidence you project and how you carry yourself. If you walk into that new job as a senior engineer with extensive experience in running a team of techies and a background in PICs, then that's how they will see you.Second, you say you can't find anything. Either you are not looking hard enough, or you are in an area where there are few jobs. If the former, look harder. If the latter, you need to move. Seriously. You sound like a young man... absolutely do not compromise your chances at success by trying to get by in a location that is not conducive to the field you are in. It will cost you hundreds of thousands of pounds (if not millions) over your career, will stump your career growth and responsibilities, and will make you depressed and miserable. There is no place in the world worth putting up with all of that shite just to live there. In the USA, North Dakota is in an oil boom. I read a story about a lady who opened a store selling safety equipment - her first year she sold $500k worth of stuff, $2 million the next, and this year she is headed to $3-4 million. She's rich now because she went where the money was.Go where the money is.

author: Bored@Work
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2014, 07:25:40 pm
content: Quote from: Christopher on March 21, 2014, 05:35:16 pmIs it a shitty job? Ok, the pay seems to be really bad. But from what you describe your tasks aren't the worst in the world.But first, I would ignore that other guy who's dad is some big cheese in the company. You will see nepotism in other companies, too. It is even the norm in some countries. Unless you can make that guy help you to advance your career stay away from such people. For me that would also include that I wouldn't silently help him with his PIC problems. Either not help him at all, providing noncommittal answer only. Or make sure the higher ups learn about your contribution (and nothing wrong with exaggerating your contribution).Regarding better pay. If it is really that bad and if they stonewall you then you will have to move on. But changing job after just 1.5 years in one job is a bit of a problem in some countries/areas/industries. If you accumulate such short periods in your CV then potential employers might think you are a serial job hopper. And some will not hire you because of this. Hiring can be expensive and it takes roughly half a year up to a year until someone becomes productive in a new job, i.e. starts to make money for the company.So my suggestion would be you try to accumulate some more time there. During that time you do your job perfectly. Then you leave in good standing with good reference letters. Dont tell them it is a shitty job. If you are bored use your time to learn.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2014, 03:56:33 pm
content: The job was good until you figured out how much the other guy gets. Reminds me the experiment below. That's why comparing salaries is not a good idea, for both of you. If you can think that you can find a better job (salary + professional interest + good mates) go for it. Until then, stay where you are and try to get the most out of it, it will help you with the rest of your career.

author: vvanders
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2014, 04:01:42 pm
content: If you want to move into a different area, build a project on the side that represents the skills required in the area. All of the best people I've worked with has follow this path and when I'm interviewing it's one of the biggest positives that I look for. It's hard to argue that you can't do a job when you've already demonstrated competency in a job you want to work in.

author: linux-works
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2014, 04:59:47 pm
content: Quote from: vvanders on March 22, 2014, 04:01:42 pmas someone who is currently out of work (got my pink slip a few months ago, sigh) showing you can do the work often means NOTHING. I have 35 yrs of showing I can do the work, working at real famous name companies here in silicon valley and still, I get turned away for 'not being technical enough' (huh?) or 'not being a fast enough coder' (do you want speed or the thing done right? damn!).I would not have lasted years at various companies if I was not able to do the work. and yet, your resume is usually just a starter piece of paper that employers seem to ASSUME is mostly lies unless you can prove it right there at the interview table. these days they give you timed programming tests and if you don't complete in time, you are told to leave. has NOTHING to do with how one actually does real work, but its a synthetic wall to cross over and if you are not able, they want no part of you ;(even when I showed open source hw/sw projects, with schematics and code, they still don't usually care. if you are not able to code xyz in 15 minutes in front of them, they won't want you.just be aware that what you have done means nothing anymore. they want to see you 'operate' in front of them, realtime. brush up on those skills. your past means nothing anymore. everyone seems to assume that your paper is full of lies. no one even gets impressed by what you once did. its such a shame things have gotton this bad, but they have (at least near me).

author: KJDS
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2014, 05:19:25 pm
content: It's worth doing at least 2 years and preferably 3 in any company. More if things are progressing well, but once you're miserable then it's time to look around. There's plenty of work in the UK provided you're flexible with location.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2014, 05:25:47 pm
content: Quote from: Christopher on March 21, 2014, 05:35:16 pmThat is the sort of thing that any decent company will be looking for, though maybe smaller companies would put more value in it over more Corporate BS. People with electronics and firmware knowlege are in big demand in the UK. If you were in London I could probably get you 3 interviews with customers of mine tomorrow.QuoteYou should be doing more than just looking for advertised posts - you should actively approach any companies in the area who might be doing the sort of work you're interested and capable of.

author: vvanders
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2014, 10:36:45 pm
content: Quote from: linux-works on March 22, 2014, 04:59:47 pmTo be fair, look at things from the perspective of someone having to hire, maybe 1 out of 20 people I phonescreen makes it to an in-person. The rest just don't have the experience to match what they list on their resume or have lied outright. I don't feel like we ask particularly hard questions(usually either implement memmove or binary tree traversal). We get people who list themselves as experts in performance optimization but don't even know what a cache line is.That said it sounds like you've hit a rough patch, actual implemented projects that you can bring in and show would usually be enough in my book to bring someone in for a serious interview. It's a shame what you're seeing, I know at least in Seattle there's no shortage of software positions.

author: linux-works
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2014, 10:42:22 pm
content: I hate tree structures! I look in books for the algorithm and then port/modify it. but I don't walk around with the steps and corner-cases memorized. that's a STUPID thing to do and a really lazy thing to ask. sorry, but it does not show a single thing about how good the programmer is. it only shows how good they are at memorizing things and being fresh out of data struct 101 class.its one of the most common things to ask and yet its the worst way you can interview someone for software. very lazy and that's why interviewers do it. they just don't know any better or they can't probe well enough into the person to know if they are good or not.

author: vvanders
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 23, 2014, 03:07:18 am
content: We're not looking for cyborg memorization, like you said it's data structures 101 which means I'd expect any decent programmer to have a good grasp of it. I care less about functionality and more about that a candidate understands recursion, stack implications, pointers, etc. It's a question that provides a good spring board to dive deeper into a variety of topics so I can better understand someone's exposure and ability.You mentioned that it's one of the most common things to ask, then study it! If you know what the common questions will be then make sure you brush up on them even if you don't necessarily find them worthwhile. I know how to reverse a string in my sleep, not because I've ever actually had to do it in production code but because I know it's the most common weeder question that you see in phone screens.Anyway, this is less important as you get closer to hardware and I think I've probably already derailed the thread enough as it is.

author: VK3DRB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 23, 2014, 05:25:59 am
content: Quote from: Corporate666 on March 21, 2014, 06:45:37 pmWRONG. The best way to climb the corporate latter is to marry the boss's daughter.People are not paid for their brains. Some actors and models make a fortune - they don't need brains. Justin Bieber made $50 MILLION last year. Sandra Bullock got $70 MILLION for doing a B-grade film called Gravity which was complete. Greed has a loud voice and there is inequality for all. Slick salesmen such as Bill Gates and exploiters of cheap labour such as Gou Tai-ming make far more cash than any talented engineer could ever make. In IBM many managers were useless as engineers. Yet they made a lot more money than the smarter engineers reporting to them. So if you go only for the money, leave engineering altogether and start a business or pursue another career.But if you have a passion for engineering, try a project on the side and try to capitalise on it. If you do well, fire the boss. Alternatively, you may want to chat with the boss about your pay. At least give him hints. One thing I have learnt over the years: THE SQUEAKY DOOR GETS THE OIL. I did not get a pay rise for 6 years at IBM/Bluegum, despite being a high performer. I quit and THEN they tried to entice me to stay with a $10K pay rise and a company car, but it was too little too late. They had cheated me. IBM also took away $40,000 of pension fund money.IBM taught me a valuable lesson: Do not trust anyone to take care of your interests. Look after yourself first and foremost. Be careful of the carrot on the stick. Most of the time it is completeIn the end, when you are of no further use, you will be discarded. So look after yourself first.The joy in being an engineer is the technical side - a sense of achievement and creativity. That is why I am still an engineer.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 23, 2014, 07:18:42 am
content: Quote from: Christopher on March 21, 2014, 05:35:16 pmThat's a decent test engineering department. For many years Iwasthe test engineering departmentQuoteThere is the problem right there. You are good at what you are doing, and in somewhat critical position, so they need someone competent to keep doing that, so any manager who's goal is to run a department that gets stuff done will be hesitant to promote you.IME it's very common to hire someone outside to do a new job instead of promote internally because of this.I know it sounds sterotypical, but it's often the truth that dumb people get promoted, and the smart ones are left to do the real work.QuoteIME you have to be willing to leave.Either threaten (in a nice way) to leave, or simply just leave.QuoteYou'd be surprised how common this situation is.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 23, 2014, 07:22:30 am
content: Quote from: Corporate666 on March 21, 2014, 06:45:37 pmYes, this is often the truth. I'd be starting to seriously look elsewhere.I wasted far too many many years in that "comfortable" position, don't let it happen to you.Start by driving around local industrial estates and note done all the technical sounding companies and then go research them and find a direct engineering contact. Google is all you need.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 23, 2014, 07:51:22 am
content: Quote from: Christopher on March 21, 2014, 05:35:16 pmWhen you are helping other people do their job, you want to try and make sure that contribution is recognized. Don't just do it quietly and without being noticed.You are probably "busy" doing your own work. You have your tasks to do and others have theirs. If you get interrupted it slows you down. Do you see what I'm saying?So if your colleague needs help, you can say "Look, I'd love to help, but I'm really busy right now. I have to get this work done. But if you need my help, why not ask our boss to assign me to work with you?"You need your manager to recognize what you do. He should set priorities and be aware of what you are working on.It may seem selfish, but the people you want to help and assist voluntarily are not your peers, but your supervisors and managers. They are the people who can advance your career, promote you and give you pay rises. Try to make yourself useful where it counts. Charity doesn't pay the bills.

author: han
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 23, 2014, 08:15:18 am
content: Quote from: Christopher on March 21, 2014, 05:35:16 pmis that true? £15K /year for a windows cleaner ?with that salary you will be rich man in here..(south east asia)

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 23, 2014, 09:48:02 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on March 23, 2014, 07:18:42 amDon't forget the "screw you" money! :-) - basically if you do decide that route always make sure you got enough tucked away to carry you until you find something else.

author: KJDS
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 23, 2014, 10:21:51 am
content: Quote from: han on March 23, 2014, 08:15:18 am£15k isn't enough to rent a 1 bed flat in a nice part of central London. A decent window cleaner workign on his own in a good area could easily be on £25k, though it's hard work and arthritis generally stops anyone doing it once they are past 40. Dipping hands into cold water every day isn't good for them.

author: han
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 23, 2014, 11:18:54 am
content: Quote from: KJDS on March 23, 2014, 10:21:51 amIt said the current asking price for homes in London was £1,516, with landlords typically asking £1,211 a month for one-bedroom flats and £1,605 for two-bedders. Across the rest of the UK the overall average was £665.is this valid cost?source:http://www.theguardian.com/money/2014/jan/27/renting-london-costs-twice-elsewhereif that the case, rent one room flat in my country(big city) is typicaly £300 / month..but the average minimum wage is about $200

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 23, 2014, 11:35:10 am
content: Quote from: han on March 23, 2014, 11:18:54 amSydney seems to be about AU$2K/month for a single bedroom apartment in the city:http://sydneymovingguide.com/the-cost-of-living-in-sydney/

author: han
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 23, 2014, 11:54:11 am
content: why the housing rate can be more expensive than hotel?few year ago in Germany, Oregon and Singapore the hotel rate roughly only $100 - $150and the food price is quite cheap for me..($5)is living cost more expensive for residence then visitor?

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 23, 2014, 12:24:09 pm
content: Come to South Africa, where you can live on that amount, and buy a cheap house as well in a fair neighbourhood.hotels always cost more than living locally, they have the same base costs but a low occupancy that they need to charge multiple of the base to cover the lean times. Typically here it is a 2-3 month of the year occupancy rate, though often they cut costs by closing entire floors during the off periods to save on cooling and cleaning. Some have other money earning things, but only the licensed casinos have high occupancy all year round.

author: han
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 23, 2014, 12:50:08 pm
content: Quote from: SeanB on March 23, 2014, 12:24:09 pmyou right,many of my friend work overseas (in multinational company) have a great salary, if they saving and investing, they can retire after 10 year work.i think work in high paid country and have retirement in develop country is the best.you can't chose where you born, but definitely can chose where you work..

author: Christopher
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 23, 2014, 01:33:03 pm
content: Thanks all. Getting this off my chest has made me feel better. I'll walk in tomorrow morning with a smile on my face and head held high.Thanks everyone. Getting it off my chest has helped a lot!I recently asked for a pay rise in my appraisal, and my manager agreed pending approval of the big boss, so hopefully that will come through soon. If not, money isn't really an object in my life, it's just i feel like I'm being taken for a bit of a ride...I won't help this guy. My friend said, and I agree, that hopefully he will fail with a bang, and piss someone else off in the process asking for stupid help. Also, when he leaves the company he will not have daddy around to help him out.I live in an area with no jobs going. A small island, 28 miles wide, which I do not plan to leave for another year or so. Hopefully in that time another job will come along. I'm searching every day, but will put more effort into it by actually approaching businesses with my proposals.In the meantime, I'll work hard and take my paycheck home at the end of the month. And focus on creating my own projects in my spare time...

author: HackedFridgeMagnet
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 23, 2014, 01:53:28 pm
content: I would help him, unless he is being an asshole.The company is paying you to help the company, if helping him is consistent with that then I would do it.Sure always look for other opportunities too.Try to get into a place where your skills can really develop, even if it isn't the best paying job. In the long run it will pay off.

author: G0HZU
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 23, 2014, 04:26:15 pm
content: QuoteMy advice would be to exploit your current situation to the full. Ask for formal training for something like Labview and use this time to learn how to set up and improve ATE systems.If your company won't offer this then learn it at home and apply it at your place of work to gain 'applied' experience with the hardware that exists at your place of work. If you can become proficient in Labview then you will be able to get a foot in the door of many decent companies and can then maybe move onto something better. eg you could apply your Labview skills within a R&D company and gradually move across to be doing the actual R&D yourself in the futureThe other option is to try and find a small startup company because the doors to better opportunities within the company are half open already. In this type of company the structure is far less well defined and you can shape your own destiny far easier

author: Christopher
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 23, 2014, 07:10:14 pm
content: Good idea. We have two ATE systems in the company at the mo, with a third new one with no engineer to work on it. That's what I will be asking about this weekOne problem though, I just don't get labview. At all. It's a piece of shit! For some reason everyone I've ever worked with loves it.

author: jancumps
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 23, 2014, 10:57:51 pm
content: Changing companies to get a better position will work one or two times. It is not a bad idea if you get the opportunity. But it isn't a sustainable growth path. You'll need to be able to make jumps within your company at a certain point to grow further.On the fact that you're the one to solve the difficult and odd issues (e.g.: test gig, PIC programming):I do get carreer counceling. A message I got is that being the go-to person for odd issues is not as efficient as having a clear and achievable carreer goal. Your colleague shows that he can achieve goals beyond his skills by working together with others.Asking for a job that pays more doesn't work in most cases. Showing that you're up for more responsability, and proving that on the job, works.And that can land you in a better pay position.

author: Tinkerer
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 23, 2014, 11:54:13 pm
content: Quote from: Christopher on March 23, 2014, 07:10:14 pmYou dont 'get' Labview? Its visual programming, thats all. If you dont understand Labview, you either havent taken the time to, or you have trouble understanding logic.I used Labview in college, took a class on it. Its so much easier to use compared with having to create a program in c++ and having a single missing colon screw you up. With Labview, all you really need to understand is logic.

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 24, 2014, 12:29:25 am
content: Quote from: VK3DRB on March 23, 2014, 05:25:59 amI know it sounds like a total dickhead thing to say, but it always amuses me when people claim that there are tons of idiots out there making millions of $$$ and whine about it. If they are idiots and making $70MM a year, what does that say about you?Sandra Bullock is apparently worth it to the casting director and the producers who are funding the movie. She draws people to the theater.Bill Gates didn't force anyone into anything - people willingly give him their money every day. If he's just a slick salesman, then go out and beat him with a better mousetrap and become the next billionaire.Don't tell me it's impossible. Nobody would have thought Apple would zoom past Microsoft to become the biggest tech company by far by beating Microsoft at their own game. Facebook came along and beat the established name (MySpace). WhatsApp came along and beat Skype. Whatsapp was founded just a few years ago and sold for $19 billion. NEST was sold for over $3 billion, and it's just a Wifi enabled thermostat.If all these people getting rich are idiots, then it ought to be easy for you to do it too.

author: G0HZU
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 24, 2014, 12:33:14 am
content: Quote from: Christopher on March 23, 2014, 07:10:14 pmIf you do want to try the training route then try and get your company to pay for and send you on an official course.Hopefully you will get a certificate at the end of it (to put on your CV!) even if it's a fairly short course.There's some details about UK Labview courses and timetables in the link below:http://uk.ni.com/training

author: Bored@Work
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 24, 2014, 04:22:06 am
content: Quote from: Corporate666 on March 24, 2014, 12:29:25 amOh, he actually did. See, for example the Comes vs. Microsoft litigation.Or the Halloween papers. Or just ask IBM about OS/2. Not to forgot being the shady figure behind SCO's litigation. Oh, and did I mention the antitrust litigation? Or the repeated fining of Microsoft by the EU for abuse of its market position? What about Sun vs Microsoft?

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 24, 2014, 05:06:37 am
content: Quote from: Christopher on March 21, 2014, 05:35:16 pmLeave!!Reading your posting gave a horrible feeling of "deja vu"!Although I am at the other end of the working age group to you,I experienced a very similar workplace environment.My time with my two major employers was 24 & 10 years respectively.I walked straight into the second one without a break,but eventually Management sent the "hatchet man" through the staff,& I ended up with a "Voluntary"(hah!)Redundancy.I picked up a few jobs over the next few years,some good,some bad,mostly OK.In the job that reminds me of yours,there was no recognition of the Technical ability of anyone but the "In"group,who were mainly pretty much lacking in that regard.Although I was employed as a Technician,I was regarded as,& used as, a non-technical "Assembler".I kept finding places where the "accepted way of doing things" did not in any way conform with industrial practice,with large amounts of additional work being required to deliver an inferior result.Suggestions were not welcome,with the "in" group thinking it was a challenge to their status.After a while,I got used to them thinking I was an idiot,& started to think,"Maybe I reallyama silly old Sod!".I eventually quit,& it was like taking a yoke from my shoulders-----should have done it the first week!In my next job I had to use my brain again,& although it was hard,I was effectively my own Boss.It was great (& necessary) therapy after the previous one.

author: VK3DRB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 24, 2014, 10:41:17 am
content: Quote from: Bored@Work on March 24, 2014, 04:22:06 amThe crazy thing there was a time when an IBMer could be sacked for using Windows at work. Everyone was forced to use OS/2 by the religious zealots in IBM. Written by Microsoft, OS/2 was full of bugs, like the BSOD. In some ways, IBM was like a religious cult.