Sending SMD components to Assembly House in China for prototype... Doc Nightmare - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: supperman
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2020, 07:04:54 pm
content: HELP!I need to send a few thousand LEDs (5 small reels) to my assembler (PCBGOGO) in china from the US. I have no clue how to handle the paperwork. This is for a prototype run of 30 PCBs they will be sending me.Does anyone have experience with this? I don't want to get this stuck in customs. I don't care about fees (but value is declared below threshold anyways). I just don't know how to describe this without triggering some adverse stalling event. (I fear anything "electronics" will kick off scrutiny)What codes / key words should I use? PCBGOGO only suggested to keep value down..Many many thanks!

author: lutkeveld
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2020, 07:24:42 pm
content: Do you already have the leds?If I assemble in China I usually order at LCSC and send them straight to the assembler.Otherwise, ask the local post office. Usually you need some export forms (CN23 I believe) including H.S. code, weight, value, addresse etc.

author: pigrew
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2020, 08:42:55 pm
content: For "personal effects", the limit is about US$15 value per package to China. You might be able to lie and call them product samples without any value (but that is ethically questionable).I've not done it, but to do what you're proposing, you'll need to find an "importer". My suggestion is to go to your nearest ChinaTown and find an importer to do the shipping for you. They'll pack it in a larger box/container, and handle all the import paperwork for you.We've shipped personal items to family in China, and they are mostly held up in customs... my understanding is that you would need personal connections in the government to get your packages delivered.

author: supperman
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2020, 09:10:06 pm
content: Yes, I have the LEDs.. Hard to find components that need to be matched to each other. There was no other way to do this for prototype quantities.Using an importer sounds crazy.. but perhaps required. Some "Forms" looks like perhaps 10 forms. Crazy.. so I was hoping people had more concrete suggestions.I can't believe no one has sent components to an assembler on this forum..

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2020, 09:16:28 pm
content: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/manufacture/sending-parts-to-china-for-pcb-assembly/

author: asmi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2020, 09:22:26 pm
content: Quote from: supperman on December 10, 2020, 09:10:06 pmI haven't had to do it myself, but heard accounts of people who did, and they all say the same thing - AVOID AVOID AVOID. It's massive pain in the ass, and often makes little financial sense.That said, if money is no object, call your local Fedex/UPS/DHL office and ask them around - they usually are willing to help if you send it through them (and in my experience, their willingness to help is directly proportional to the price you will pay for their services, so go Express). Declare them for what they are, and if China customs slaps the duty of them - so be it, tell your China assembler to include it into your final bill.

author: supperman
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2020, 09:24:14 pm
content: Quote from: thm_w on December 10, 2020, 09:16:28 pmI read the post from 2018.. and probably not good advice. For one it requires a passport picture of the receiver. I think that is a stretch for my purposes.

author: supperman
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2020, 09:26:46 pm
content: Quote from: asmi on December 10, 2020, 09:22:26 pmThanks. My experience in general has been that the big shippers are the worst offering no help..Anyone ever use an importer for a single package?

author: asmi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2020, 09:38:27 pm
content: Quote from: supperman on December 10, 2020, 09:26:46 pmI had mixed results, but like I said, the higher the cost of service, the more they seemed to be willing to help.Also - have you considered local assemblers? Or maybe DIY? 30 boards doesn't sound like a lot even for hand-soldering.

author: supperman
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2020, 09:46:59 pm
content: Quote from: asmi on December 10, 2020, 09:38:27 pmWell.. they are 10,000 1mm x 1mm RGB LEDs.. no thanksThis is costing me $2000 in China with the PCB.. here it would be over 10k I'm guessing.

author: asmi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2020, 09:51:06 pm
content: Quote from: supperman on December 10, 2020, 09:46:59 pmHoly crap!10k leds on a single PCB? Some kind of screen I'm guessing, but in this case they are tiled COTS solutions, which allow you to build pretty much as big as you dare.

author: supperman
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2020, 09:57:30 pm
content: Quote from: asmi on December 10, 2020, 09:51:06 pmwell.. divide by 30 per board..Bottom line.. I have to ship.. no way around it.. and I would like to do it the right way..The right way is non-obvious.So experienced help would be great! (I'm thinking there is something special about exporting them again back to me a few weeks later.. also.. they are made in Taiwan. )Most brokers don't seem to just do a single package. Unclear who to trust too.. some seem shady.

author: SMTech
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2020, 08:38:13 am
content: Obviously we can't get all the details on the assembly involved from your description, so for instance its not clear how many other parts are on these boards apart from ~300 0404? LEDs or if the reels are pre binned/matched or that's another step the assembler has to do for you (that would be fun).However I would be VERY VERY careful about taking a Chinese prince and just assuming a western price as being a multiple of that, such an assumption is akin to people who go to Costco and assume that because they are buying it in Costco it must be a good price when in fact you need to be bloody picky about what you buy in Costco because its actually quite expensive on many items even the ones that look like bulk purchases.As described, with the client supplying both parts and PCB that is a <£1000 assembly job including sourcing a proper stencil if I were quoting it and I would expect that to be comparable with other quotes I might get from 3rd parties.

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2020, 08:51:09 am
content: I have had absolutely no problem just using DHL, other than it being quite expensive, of course.When creating the pick up order on their website, there's a complete system where you input the contents, value, and tariff codes. The granularity of tariff codes go beyond being just "electronics", and beware, people who came up with all the codes have been detached from reality so you need to be creative by matching actual products with the available codes. I have sent hundred different components, no way I'm going to list a separate tariff code for each, so the whole package became "circuit protection" or something like that because TVS diodes were the first item on my list...Obviously your parts will be samples with little monetary value. This is understandable; SMD components are cheap, all the cost is in labor and setup. The customs don't understand the difference between $0.005 SMD LED and $0.50 SMD LED, they look all the same.My packages never got stuck in customs or caused any problems between Finland and China; for US, it may be more difficult due to the trade war cultural thing.This being said, I think I only did it some three or four times.I would avoid it if at all possible, but if you need to do it, then give it a shot, contact DHL or UPS or whatever your PCB manufacturer typically uses.

author: cgroen
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 11, 2020, 10:16:41 am
content: We shipped a bunch of CPU's to pcbway for a job using DHL, no problem at all. Just included an invoice (with a "proper" amount) and thats it

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2020, 12:51:07 pm
content: Speaking of invoices, to further clarify, the DHL website tool automatically created a document titled "invoice". It's funny when you are not selling anything, but that's how the process works.

author: supperman
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2020, 04:12:03 pm
content: Quote from: cgroen on December 11, 2020, 10:16:41 amThank you Siwastaja and cgroen. I was thinking this is what I do. DHL. "Generic LED" using the LED diode code. $50 value. Do all paperwork. Hope for the best.SMTech - They are sourcing all other parts. I'm working directly with the led vendor on the LEDs.. but they are backlogged and I had to order from 3rd party small distros.. and I needed to get the parts in hand to examine them.. and make sure I matched the bins. I'm only sending half of what I purchased.. since.. what do you know.. they don't all match. I needed "eyes on the goods" to make sure.They are very price competitive... I think the assembly is only $300.. sure they overcharge on parts.. perhaps another $100 or so. It is quite amazing pricing that I can't get in the US. This is definitely a $10,000 run (pcb+assembly) if in the US.

author: Zeyneb
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2020, 11:26:08 pm
content: Now we're on this topic. Do you know if it would be realistic to ask the Chinese assembler to place an order at Digikey or Mouser for the more special parts on your PCB. Do packages from Digikey or Mouser get to China easily?

author: Mangozac
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2020, 02:50:14 am
content: Quote from: Zeyneb on December 11, 2020, 11:26:08 pmYes, they can order from Digikey, Mouser, Arrow and Element14 (there are even local Chinese variants of those sites) BUT the assembler will then have to deal with headaches importing that they will charge you for. Furthermore (and this was a couple of years ago so I don't know if it has changed), if they aren't big enough to be import registered in a certain way they will cop a 20% import tariff that will be passed on to you.

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2020, 03:16:17 am
content: I've always just given my BOM with part numbers to PCBway for them to sort out ordering.For important items I list the acceptable sources they can purchase the part from in the BOM, (like "Must be from digikey/mouser").For any generic items, like 0805 resistors or 0.1uf caps I just say "Any Source"If you want a bit more protection you can request the digikey invoice to prove that is where they ordered them from. Sometimes they send you this anyway with your PCBs and any unused parts, but not always.

author: 48X24X48X
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2020, 10:50:04 am
content: There's GST tax when importing into China. If the company is properly run, they can pay the GST and reimbursed it back to you when exporting out back. But, a small fee is probably charged due to the process involved. I do this all the time with the PCBA company I used in China.

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2020, 12:20:58 pm
content: Quote from: Zeyneb on December 11, 2020, 11:26:08 pmBoth Digikey and Mouser have proper Chinese offices. They have Chinese websites, you can look up the Chinese pricing which includes customs, brokerage, etc., it's no different to how I order from Digikey/Mouser to Finland, for example. Any proper quality assembly fab will be frequently ordering from them, so it isn't a special requirement.So yes, there is no problem doing that. If the PCB manufacturer claims otherwise, ask for clarification, be careful.When assembling at PCBWay, I have received excess components in Mouser bags, so clearly they order quite a lot of stuff there by default, when you give them exact part number.PCBWay adds some ~30% of price on the top of the Chinese Mouser/Digikey prices (which already contain customs etc.), but that's understandable, they are not a charity, and the setup fees are otherwise quite low for the amount of human work involved.

author: Zeyneb
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2020, 04:20:15 pm
content: Thanks for your responses. Do you have some tips for me to understand what communication style works best with the Chinese assembly house? Maybe PCBWay specifically.For example:1) Are they willing to talk to you about the data delivered to them for problem-free assembly? Without annoyingly terse/confusing instructions?2) Are they clear about the costs involved upfront?3) Have you encountered a disagreement with them and if so, what communication approach works best in that case to get it resolved? Sure I mean in a way that you can do business with them again.Thanks in advance.

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2020, 05:19:03 pm
content: With PCBway, I have made both sourced-by-them and sourced-mostly-by-me assemblies.Sourcing by them: just post your BOM spreadsheet (qty, part number, optionally preferred supplier); they will look up the prices, add some margin (say a few cents + 30%-ish typically), add columns to your spreadsheet showing $ ea, $ total. At this point, they also add the exact part number they'll supply (in case your part number was partial like LM358, or you gave generic data like "red LED 0603").At this point, I have "complained" about the price once, it was an expensive MCU withsignificantlymore than the typical 30% extra cost compared to the Chinese Digikey/Mouser prices. In this case they said it was a human error accidentally quoting for qty=1 price when the actual qty was more. Understandable, they fixed this. Otherwise than that, prices are obviously not negotiable, they need to add some cost margin because ordering the parts requires human work, and they need to order extras because parts are lost in P&P. (Obviously, in small batches, many parts are hand-placed.)Sourcing by you: they have sent me a surprisingly clear instruction PDF discussing how many excess parts are required per package size, how to package the parts, and address to send them to.Regarding quality, I have seen small mishaps like one pad near the edge of the card missing solder, one short between QFP leads, one wrongly rotated IC (square shape, easy to get wrong). All understandable errors. Each time, they have given a small coupon off the next order.I have never had catastrophic errors requiring re-doing the boards so don't know how they handle that.Once I had a really bad footprint on a 1210 capacitor (accidentally thought I would use a library part that came with a well-known PCB EDA package - what a mistake!), the pads are so far away it requires utmost care to place the part exactly center and still the surface tension tends to suck the part to one of the pads - would tombstone if the parts weren't so heavy. They caught this error early (they build one sample board first) and asked if I used some special capacitor size and maybe I specified the wrong part number. I replied I have the correct part number but my footprint is a bit "tricky", and gave them permission to go and run the boards anyway, saying I'll fix them if necessary. They finally ended up manually hand-soldering the pads that failed in reflow and asked some ridiculously low extra cost to cover for the expense, clearly not to make extra profit with that so I'm happy they just did what needs to be done and saved me from fixing the boards. Quality of hand soldering was OK. Were it more expensive, I would have wanted them to ask my permission first, but it was like 1% of the total cost. So happy with this.Communication isn't perfect but quite clear and to the point IMHO, mostly correct professional terminology.All in all, I have no reason not to recommend PCBWay's assembly service, and no, this is not a paid review.

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 14, 2020, 11:12:45 am
content: Only problem i've had with PCBway was some fake 5V regs.The regs in question had the correct part number stamped on them but must have been some generic 5V reg instead.They definitely weren't the expensive automotive one with rev polarity protection that I spec'ed in the BOM .This didn't happen again after I complained and put in the BOM a list of authorized purchase locations for the critical parts.

author: supperman
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 12, 2021, 05:33:47 pm
content: Just a follow-up:I had no problems at all.I shipped DHL. I kept description simple "SMD LED". They happened to be 5 hermetically sealed packets.. so I said "5" for quantity. I said "exempt" on any restrictions and listed SMD LEDs as the code. I priced it low (perhaps $40 - I think you have to keep it under $80 or $100 or something to avoid any tax) and in the note field I said SMD components for re-export after assembly (but I'm sure that had no impact - but may if someone takes a closer look.) Basically super boring for anyone looking at it or even anyone unpacking it. Made sure I mentioned that the "manufacturer of origin" was "Taiwan, China" and underlined that on the packet in case they open it. Got there in 3 or 4 days with no shipping exceptions.