Does your TS100 temperature measure accurately? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Rooster Cogburn
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2018, 02:37:11 pm
content: I measured mine on both the official firmware and the Ralim one with a Fluke thermocouple and a cheap Hakko tip thermometer clone. On both the reported tip temperature is quite a bit below what the iron itself measures. Temperature calibration made no difference. I only found this one video of somebody taking temperature measurements:https://youtu.be/DEEaLMv6dog?t=12m49s. Hmmm.Since there is no offset feature and calibration, different firmware or tips do not seem make a difference, just curious if this is what I should expect.

author: MacMeter
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 07, 2018, 12:09:12 am
content: Quote from: Rooster Cogburn on May 05, 2018, 02:37:11 pmSome temp info here (reply #5 and down)https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/eevblog-bm235/msg1486299/#msg1486299

author: Rooster Cogburn
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 07, 2018, 08:12:32 am
content: This is pretty confusing. So some people, including you, say they get spot on correct temperature measurements from their thermocouple, but others don't? Both my Fluke thermocouple and my tip thermometer show nowhere near the set temperature on the TS100. Also in the video I linked the TS100 measures 30C below set temperature with a tip thermometer. What's the conclusion here, the measurement equipment is wrong? There are different TS100 revisions and only some work properly?

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 07, 2018, 09:08:44 am
content: Do you put thermocouple into a solder blob? Thermocouple joint and preferably a little bit of wire should be immersed in solder at least partially. Otherwise such measurement is useless. Many people just stupidly touch the surface with thermoucouple and expect accurate measurement.

author: Rooster Cogburn
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 07, 2018, 09:13:25 am
content: Yeah, I did so both with the Fluke & Hakko clone. In the video I linked you can also see that he's getting 30C less that set temperature with the TS100 while making a good effort to transfer heat to the thermocouple.

author: MosherIV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 07, 2018, 10:02:55 am
content: It depends on where the thermocouple in the TS100 is and how far the tip is from the thermocouple and the tip geometry.The thermocouple and therefore the temperature read out is primarily there for power management.

author: Rooster Cogburn
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 07, 2018, 10:15:35 am
content: Quote from: MosherIV on May 07, 2018, 10:02:55 amThat makes sense, of course. Sorry if I'm asking really dumb questions here, but I'm just trying to simultaneously understand what I should expect to measure and how I should measure.The TS100 uses a integrated heater/thermocouple/tip system, so I'd expect the temperature difference between the integrated sensor and the actual tip surface to be pretty low. Here's Dave's review of two low-end soldering stations from Hakko & Weller, he does some temperature readings:https://youtu.be/tlKg6rSMPEs?t=26m20sI think he uses the exact same thermocouple & tip thermometer that I use. For the Hakko station, both measure a few degrees C off from the set temperature and he's pretty displeased that the Weller is off by 30C. And that's with old-style technology were the tip is separate from the heater/sensor assembly.And now I've seen a few sources for the TS100 were people report temperature readings to be spot on and others have huge differences. What's the issue?

author: MosherIV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 07, 2018, 10:39:44 am
content: Do not get overly obssed about the display temp and actual temp.In Dave's video he did not mention (not sure if he realised) that the Hakko showed 'better' thermal performance because the temperature sensor is next to the heater element BUT the tip is some what decoupled from the heater. When Dave put the tip on wet sponge the tip would have cooled but with the Hakko the thermocouple was measuring the heating element temp NOT the tip temp, the control loop would have picked up cooling and applied heat and maintained heat as best it can but as far as the temp sensor was concerned, yes the temp at the heater was good.Not sure what the answer to your question is (real life is like that).Try measuring the temp along the the TS100 tip. Hopefully the temperature is correct where the temperature sensor is.The main thing is, can you set a temperature where it can solder.You should also find something with a large thermal mass, this will need a higher temperature setting. Try some settings and find one that will allow you to solder/desolder with large thermal mass.There is a lot of personal preference involved in soldering, eg tip geometry, soldering iron manufacturer, solder. Find something you like and stick to that.I started with Weller TCP (temp controlled by the bit) and found that to be perfect. Later I switched to Metcal (again temp controlled by tips) and they work for me. I have used JBC, I can work with them but I will always prefer Metcal. I have never felt the need to have absolute control of temperature on the soldering iron. It just need to melt solder!

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 07, 2018, 11:09:56 am
content: I checked my TS100 (stock firmware 2.11). With 350oC set temp, actual temperature is 375oC

author: Rooster Cogburn
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 07, 2018, 11:16:36 am
content: I don't think wanting a soldering iron that actually heats to the set temperature is being obsessed with anythingA soldering iron is a hot stick, and you're pretty crap at hot-stick-making if you can't make yours go to the agreed upon temperature. You-had-one-job and such memes.The TS100 does work quite well in practice, good thermal mass, recovery, temperature stability. But I still want accurate temperature setting and readout even if it's for no other purpose than making your experience transferable between different pieces of equipment.For instance, when I do SMD work I set a very low temperature. Soldering in 0603 components and removing solder bridges on a QFP requires very little heat. Can keep the risk of damaging components and the rate of burning off flux to a minimum. The same temperature will be utterly useless when trying to desolder a THT connector on some board with lead-free solder and a gigantic ground plane. But better not keep that temperature when wicking the solder of small pads as the heat can cause the epoxy to melt. I found that SMD aluminium eletrolytics require a bit more heat as they're often very inconvenient to solder and there's a risk of producing bad joints when it's hard to make contact with the pad.So I think I'm doing what you're suggesting, getting some experience and a gut feeling for what tip/temperature to use. But I hate the idea of building up all that experience and then using a different piece of equipment where all my numbers are different 300C = 270C, 370C = 320C, etc.Displaying and maintaining an accurate temperature does not seem like an exotic requirement, more like the bare minimum of what I'd expect of a decent tool. And it seems like some people are getting that result with their TS100, I just want to understand what the difference is.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 07, 2018, 11:16:46 am
content: Just updated to this firmware:https://github.com/Ralim/ts100/releasesand temperature became spot on.

author: Rooster Cogburn
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 07, 2018, 11:30:21 am
content: Quote from: wraper on May 07, 2018, 11:16:46 amI don't measure any significant temperature difference between the latest official and the current Ralim firmware. Besides, the custom firmware has been extremely unreliable for me. Older versions just crashed on my PCB revision, then there was a major bug with wild temperature fluctuations that affected a few releases and the last few versions have a still unfixed bug that completely breaks the sleep mode.

author: MosherIV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 07, 2018, 11:38:03 am
content: QuoteIt is harder than you might think!I worked on a coffee brewer and the thermal management was a bloody nightmareAs I said, trying to account for tip geometry is no easy task.QuoteGood to hear. Once you have that exerience, you will not rely so much on the absolute temperature reading, you will know that the setting is too low and need to up it.

author: Rooster Cogburn
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 07, 2018, 12:20:08 pm
content: Quote from: MosherIV on May 07, 2018, 11:38:03 amI'm just not digging this "Use the force, Luke!" approach to soldering very much. I guess if I pull pads and fry components the iron was too hot and if it's not melting solder it's too cold, but I'd rather just get the experience to know which temperature I need for which job and then just set that and have the confidence I'll get it. And having a knob labelled 250C - 450C is just a lot more useful than one that's labelled 1 - 10 because I don't have to learn a new scale / response every time I change equipment. And if, in the end, it turns out that temperature control is such a rocket science problem that you can only reliably get that on a >500EUR JBC then that's what I'll eventually buy. In the meantime I'd just like to know why some people seem to get their TS100 + tip thermometer / MM thermocouple to agree on temp while others don't

author: MosherIV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 07, 2018, 02:06:52 pm
content: QuoteYou must be reading my mind, I am watching the Starwars saga on Blueray (due to it being Star Wars day recently).QuoteThat is the "Use the force Luke" experinenced solderer!Aggreed that it would be good to know what the rough temperature is but it is not essenital.If you want your TS100 to be accurate that is OK too.Personally, I can go anywhere, pick up any soldering iron and know if it is at the right temperature when I use it by the feel of how it melts solder etc (the "Use the force Luke"). This is far more effective than having to go and ask "is this soldering iron reading the right temperature?". Yes, it would be nice if the read out is correct but that is not necessary for the experienced.I am just encouraging you to look at it this way.BTW try BigClive as well he recently did a review of some solder and he did some vlogs on Hakko clone temperature settings, measuring them etc.

author: MacMeter
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 07, 2018, 03:05:45 pm
content: I don’t have an actual tip tester, but after I played with my DMM and thermocoupler, as others have suggested, the ability to melt solder, became my #1 concern. The best test for that is use some lead free solder with its small temperature range, and see if the temperature you set melts it. My TS100 is within 10-15 degrees Fahrenheit of the melting temp for my solder tests. That’s good enough for me. Test yours this way before making any final conclusions. Otherwise you may have a bad one, first I’ve heard of one not getting close to it’s set temp.I used some lead free Sn99.3 Cu0.7. Melting temp = 446F.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 07, 2018, 03:12:58 pm
content: Quote from: Rooster Cogburn on May 07, 2018, 11:30:21 amI updated to official 2.18 and temperature became as it was originally (375oC when set to 350oC). Then flashed Ralim 2.04 again and temperature again became spot on. So certainly there is a difference.

author: MacMeter
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 07, 2018, 03:15:30 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on May 07, 2018, 03:12:58 pmGood, info. I should add I stuck with the 2.02 firmware. Had less bugs then the newer ones so far for my early PCB TS100 model.

author: Rooster Cogburn
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 07, 2018, 04:28:49 pm
content: With the latest Ralim firmware and the iron set to 350C I get 318C with the tip thermometer and the DMM thermocouple stabilizes around 295C with the sensor resting loosely in a solder ball on the chisel. The video I linked shows 270C on the tip thermometer with the iron set to 300C. Official 2.18 firmware is no better for me.

author: MacMeter
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 07, 2018, 04:41:01 pm
content: Quote from: Rooster Cogburn on May 07, 2018, 04:28:49 pmHave you tried testing actual solder melting temps as I suggested above? If not you are just going to make yourself crazy.

author: Rooster Cogburn
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 07, 2018, 04:48:14 pm
content: Quote from: MacMeter on May 07, 2018, 04:41:01 pmYes, but that's not very useful as the set/measured discrepancy seems to increase with the set temperature. So at ~180C it's a about 10C off, 300C about 30C off, and so on. Basically the fact that these three devices don't agree very much on the temperature means that at least two of them are in need of replacement or I need to change my testing approach. Just trying to find out which one it is

author: MacMeter
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 07, 2018, 05:10:35 pm
content: Quote from: Rooster Cogburn on May 07, 2018, 04:48:14 pmHow off was the temp on your solder tests?

author: MosherIV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 07, 2018, 05:14:47 pm
content: Check the temperature range of the thermocouple. Some that come with dmm only go upto 180Centigrade.You can check they are working correctly (calibrated) with melting ice in water for 0Centigrade and boiling water for 100Centigrade

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 07, 2018, 05:20:12 pm
content: Quote from: MosherIV on May 07, 2018, 05:14:47 pmIt is only about insulation, not performance of thermocouple. Even if insulation will melt, it won't prevent it from functioning, unless wires are shorted somewhere away from the joint.

author: MacMeter
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 07, 2018, 05:25:49 pm
content: Just tested again. Using lead free Sn99.3 Cu0.7. Melting temp = 446F. Set TS100 iron to 460F, display shows 456F, the solder melts on the very end of the C4 tip, the biggest one they sell. So I’m HAPPY with only a 10 degree F, difference, especially with the cost of the iron considered. If you are far off from the solder melt temps, then maybe it’s hardware related.

author: Rooster Cogburn
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 07, 2018, 05:48:28 pm
content: I can melt my sn62pb36ag2 (should liquify at 180C) with the iron set to 190C, so that's pretty good, I'd say. But when I measure the tip temperature with the tip tester or the DMM, the discrepancy increases the higher the temperature gets. Set temp 350C = 318C tip thermometer / 295C DMM, that's very far off.Fluke rates their thermocouple to 250C, but from what I understand it should work fine at higher temperatures. At room temperature the tip tester and the DMM agree on the ambient temperature, but it's hard to test both equally well on an iron tip. I can imagine the ~20C discrepancy between them is because of the large thermal mass of the DMM thermocouple and the different ways of pressing them on the tip.I know there's different PCB revisions, many different firmware releases, different tips and defective tips. 270C vs 300C and 318C vs 350C is a pretty massive temperature differential right inside the typical working range of a soldering iron. I guess my hardware might have a defect, but then again that video I linked shows the exact same problem, so maybe it's just a certain PCB revisions that's performing poorly. Or both my DMM & tip thermometer are inaccurate.

author: MacMeter
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 07, 2018, 05:53:05 pm
content: Quote from: Rooster Cogburn on May 07, 2018, 05:48:28 pmI think that’s about the best you are going to get. I got tired of chasing temps, but was satisfied I’m close in the areas of importance.

author: Rooster Cogburn
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 07, 2018, 06:38:54 pm
content: Quote from: MacMeter on May 07, 2018, 05:53:05 pmBut you yourself saidQuote from: MacMeter on May 07, 2018, 05:53:05 pmand now you're telling me 300C->270C / 350C->318C is as close as I'm going to get? BoooooooTo me, this kind of performance is ultimately not acceptable. I don't know which device is at fault here, but a tip thermometer or an iron being off by >30C in the normal soldering range marks that device as to be repaired / replaced. It's certainly OK while I'm messing around and learning stuff, but I have some bigger projects I want to get into and some pricier electronics to mod/repair and there's no point in breaking some device worth hundreds of dollars because I cheaped out on my equipment and it fried a PCB/chip with 400C when I wanted 350C or whatever.If I set my bench PSU to 20V and my DMM tells me 15V, one or both of those (or my approach to measurement...) is not working. And yes, I know, the experienced engineer will eventually notice that the voltage is too low and adjust, but I'd rather just set 20V and get 20V and worry about my actual task

author: MacMeter
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 07, 2018, 07:07:01 pm
content: Quote from: Rooster Cogburn on May 07, 2018, 06:38:54 pmI’m NOT telling you what you will or are getting, just what I’m GETTING. Odd that I don’t see other users reporting their temp being as far off as you. If the performance is not acceptable to you, RETURN or sell them. Get the new Pace station at $240.

author: Rooster Cogburn
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 07, 2018, 07:27:03 pm
content: Quote from: MacMeter on May 07, 2018, 07:07:01 pmAh OK, misunderstood you then. But like I mentioned many times, that video I linked shows the same temperature discrepancy I'm having. I can't return my TS100 anymore, it's cheap Chinese stuff, no generous return windows or warrantiesI just posted here trying to understand what the problem is. TS100? Measurement devices? I still have no ideaI think Pace is mostly a US brand, I don't think you can even buy those here. Never seen one. But I see your point. In the end the TS100 is decent for its price but I'll eventually need to move on to something more reliable.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 07, 2018, 07:39:57 pm
content: About calibration not working, I'd guess that's an issue with user, not tool.

author: Rooster Cogburn
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 07, 2018, 08:12:50 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on May 07, 2018, 07:39:57 pmI don't think there's anything you can do to calibrate the TS100, besides the internal calibration procedure that gets the tip & handle thermometers in-sync. I can only measure the temperature. What I do is take a large tip, press it against the thermocouple and add some solder to ensure the best possible thermal transfer. Not sure what I could do differently :/

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 07, 2018, 08:50:58 pm
content: I don't see why it's such a big problem for you. If you trust your thermocouple measurement more that the TS100 temperature display, then simply adjust the TS100 temperature until the thermocouple reading matches what you desire.Tip temperature isn't something that you constantly need to change. You still have the boost function if you want a second one.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 07, 2018, 09:05:50 pm
content: I think it should be possible to change cal by editing text file.

author: Rooster Cogburn
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 07, 2018, 09:11:00 pm
content: Quote from: Gyro on May 07, 2018, 08:50:58 pmI mentioned that before, quoting myself:"For instance, when I do SMD work I set a very low temperature. Soldering in 0603 components and removing solder bridges on a QFP requires very little heat. Can keep the risk of damaging components and the rate of burning off flux to a minimum. The same temperature will be utterly useless when trying to desolder a THT connector on some board with lead-free solder and a gigantic ground plane. But better not keep that temperature when wicking the solder of small pads as the heat can cause the epoxy to melt. I found that SMD aluminium eletrolytics require a bit more heat as they're often very inconvenient to solder and there's a risk of producing bad joints when it's hard to make contact with the pad."And so on. I find myself adjusting the temperature now and then, not just once a day. And why wouldn't I, using the lowest temperature that still allows for short soldering times and quality joints is a good idea. I don't want to memorize some kind of temperature lookup table or have a bunch of pseudo temperatures in my head that apply only to this particular miscalibrated soldering iron. Being able to set a temperature and have the tip actually get there withing acceptable error bounds seems like a basic feature and a very low bar to pass. If that turns out to be impossible on the TS100 or there's some kind of PCB revision or tip quality lottery, then I just have to accept that I'll have to eventually move on to something better.

author: Rooster Cogburn
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 07, 2018, 09:17:18 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on May 07, 2018, 09:05:50 pmThe Ralim firmware does not use a config file, but the official one has it with some kind of offset feature. The language in the manual makes it seem like the setting would be written automatically by the firmware when it does its calibration procedure, though. One issue is that the temperature differential I measure is not linear but increases with the actual temperature. From what I've read about soldering iron calibration issues, that's pretty common / expected. I could try shifting the error around a bit so the 280 - 380 range etc. has the least error, that would probably be an improvement! Would have to go back to official firmware, though. Losing boost mode but at least sleep would work again

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 07, 2018, 09:22:42 pm
content: Sleep does appear to work again, from my testing so far anyway, as of V2.04.1 (today).I guess everyone is different, I tend to use the same soldering temp for everything, that's what thermal regulation and recovery is about. I just use the Boost function for desoldering heavy stuff.

author: Rooster Cogburn
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 08, 2018, 10:41:58 am
content: Thanks for letting me know, just gave it a shot, appears to be fixed! Temperature control still seems much worse than a few versions ago, though. Seems like the control loop just tries very hard not to undershoot, so cooling down from boost mode or to the idle temp takes a very long time as the heater still fires.I did some more temperature measurements. Both the DMM and the tip thermometer are both consistently below the set temperature of the TS100. I could never get both of the to agree, the DMM is always like 15-20C below the tip thermometer. I always suspected that it's just harder to make contact. I did some more experiments and turns out I simply have to measure a bit higher up on the tip. If I place my solder ball there, I can get DMM & tip thermometer to agree with <3C divergence. Seems like this TS100 has just absolutely broken temperature regulation, getting worse the hotter the temperature is set.Also, I can't get the cabling to work reliable. I already swapped between three different DC connectors to get the tightest fit, but I still have the iron restart sometimes. I'm now using a connector with just the right depth, but if I tug and wiggle the connector / cable for about a minute I can still get the iron to reset to the main screen as it seems the power cuts out for just a split second. A DC connector is just not the right type for attaching a handpiece.

author: Rooster Cogburn
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 08, 2018, 05:05:24 pm
content: For what it's worth, I thought I share my findings with some more measurements on the official forum:http://www.minidso.com/forum.php?mod=viewthread&tid=3168Maybe they can fix that PCB revision / up the quality-control.