Defending KiCAD's performance as an EDA in a lawsuit - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: fyberlabs
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: May 16, 2020, 05:33:14 pm
content: Hi, I have a bit of a weird situation. I have brought a suit for non-payment against a client. Their response to a summary judgement included an affidavit from the current contractor stating that KiCAD is inadequate to develop a laser tag platform. The guy appears to think that only Altium can handle the complexities of a USB D-/D+ pair or something. So now I have to defend 'my' selection of KiCAD. Of course 'my' is in quotes as I had walked the client through EDA options I could use and even had support from the contractor (who was originally the assembler).So any helpful arguments for KiCAD are welcome.Thanks!

author: fourfathom
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 16, 2020, 05:41:43 pm
content: You might start by looking at the "Made with KiCAD" pages for examples of commercial products with USB ports:https://kicad-pcb.org/made-with-kicad/Frankly, it's a ridiculous argument. KiCAD is perfectly able to do the type of design that is required here.

author: Jay_Diddy_B
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 16, 2020, 06:21:15 pm
content: Hi,Rather than get side tracked as to whether KiCAD is adequate. What does your contract say? Did you deliver everything set out in the contract?(Differential controlled impedance pairs were routed (by hand) many decades before any CAD software had tools to make it easier.)I don't know how money is involved, but you might be better putting this client on the list of 'special customers' or even 'very special customers' and moving on.Do you have any source files that they absolutely need?Did you give them the Gerber files?Regards,Jay_Diddy_B

author: pointhi
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 16, 2020, 06:39:42 pm
content: Some examples of KiCad designs in production:Laptop:https://www.crowdsupply.com/mnt/reformhttps://github.com/OLIMEX/DIY-LAPTOP/tree/master/HARDWARE/A64-TERESSingle Board Computer:https://github.com/OLIMEX/OLINUXINO/tree/master/HARDWARE/A64-OLinuXinoMobile Phone:https://source.puri.sm/Librem5/dvk-mx8m-bsb/RF Applications:https://greatscottgadgets.com/hackrf/https://www.scopefun.com/https://code.google.com/archive/p/opendous/wikis/Upconverter.wikiSatellite:https://upsat.gr/

author: profdc9
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 16, 2020, 06:50:54 pm
content: You probably need to consult a lawyer, but unless your contract stipulated that the work to be performed required Altium or excluded Kicad, I don't think that is grounds for nonpayment. If you did the work stated in the contract, you should go to court to collect. You don't have to defend Kicad, you need to say that I delivered what was asked for in the contract, and so pay me. If you can document the work hours you put in on the project, the PCB designs, schematics, and software that was the result of the work, and the contract authorizes the work, they should pay you. If your contract has a clause in it that says that you can charge them for costs entailed in collecting your payment, including legal fees, it wouldn't hurt to remind them of that either.

author: filssavi
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 16, 2020, 07:13:55 pm
content: I have been in your position as many, many other electrical engineers, and i have few advices to give you1) get an attorney/lawyer, and let him run the suit (IANAL but i seriously doubt the argument can hold much ground in court, as long as the design does indeed work)2) Consider very, very wel pros and cons before getting involved in a lawsuit as unless the work involved serious money (and for that a contract should have been signed), you will end up spending more in court fees, taxes than the payment itself (consider also you could loose)3) add the client to the special list of peoples that you will never work with again (unless payed in advaced 3-5 times as much) as it is almost never wort the hassle

author: Doctorandus_P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 16, 2020, 09:11:27 pm
content: From the little experience I have with courts, it has very little to do with justice, but it's more about who can cough up the "best" story.You will probably be telling your story to a judge (or whatever) who has no experience with KiCad nor Altium or EDA in general.I also have my suspicions that people being dishonest towards you, do it as a way of life, and may well have had several court cases before, and thus much more experience in this puppet theater then you have. It may be worth looking into other court cases this guy has been involved in.As others have already written. I also doubt if the question whether KiCad is "suitable" is just meant to throw you off track ans waste time preparing for defending this avenue. Nonetheless, a picture book which shows the relative complexity of your project compared to the other projects, complete with references to those projects would probably impress a non EDA judge more then trying to explain matched impedance pairs.Without a lawyer I give you a very slim chance of getting through such a puppet theater unscathed.You also do not need a Gibson nor a Stradivarius to make beautiful music. The Blue Man group does it with PVC pipes.Also: Just recently altium has made an official announcement of their KiCad to altium importer, which should make the whole KiCad thing a non-issue.https://www.altium.com/solution/kicad-pcb-design-software-free-download/That link is full with FUD about KiCad, which may confuse a Judge (which is exactly the function of FUD). There may be better links around.The altium to KiCad importer is also very near completion (It's already in the nightlies, and announced in the Blog on the KiCad website for V6).https://forum.kicad.info/search?q=altium%20importer%20order%3Alatesthttps://www.kicad-pcb.org/blog/

author: Bassman59
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 17, 2020, 04:21:46 am
content: Quote from: fyberlabs on May 16, 2020, 05:33:14 pmFind a lawyer who knows about these issues and let that person do all of the talking.

author: edpalmer42
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 17, 2020, 04:58:19 am
content: Don't forget to list KiCad's corporate sponsors!- University of Grenoble- CERN- The Raspberry Pi Foundation- Arduino LLC- Digi-Key Electronics- SoftPLC - US$450K worth of employee time!!+ othersMight be worthwhile to add up the value of the major sponsors. Lots of zeros is always impressive!

author: Karel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 17, 2020, 07:12:08 am
content: Quote from: Doctorandus_P on May 16, 2020, 09:11:27 pmLooks like they are starting to feel a bit uncomfortable with the competition...

author: all_repair
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 17, 2020, 07:34:13 am
content: How is the contract and the work structured or worded? Tools should be blind, or you would have to defend the keyboard, mouse, monitor, pencil, etc that are being used to generate your work.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 17, 2020, 09:19:44 am
content: What's in the contract is the key point, especially the "deliverables" and "acceptance tests".Different point: does the contract state that the title to the works remains with you until you have been paid?

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 17, 2020, 04:53:48 pm
content: Now that is an "interesting" situation.As others have said - your client is bound by the contract. What does your contract exactly say?Unless there was an explicit requirement for the EDA from the client, I can't see how that could be ground for not paying.Did you complete the project successfully? If so, what's the problem? Now were the deliverables clearly defined, and the milestones for paying as well?

author: radioactive
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 17, 2020, 05:14:32 pm
content: Might also be worth mentioning that KiCad will still be around and improving long after Altium is gone.Look what happened to Eagle Cad.

author: fyberlabs
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: May 17, 2020, 07:59:08 pm
content: Thank you all for the replies. I'll be looking at the example designs listed as examples for sure. I had already developed a laser tagging robot for a prior customer in KiCAD. That was my main reason for recommending it.I don't want to get into legal strategy publicly, but the contract and their prior behavior does limit their options and they are grasping. We will be focusing on the contract, they will attempt to confuse. They are presenting this other "KiCAD isn't suitable for laser tag" contractor's work as fixes. We know from their invoices it is significant changes in design and additional work. So we need to address his credibility and performance as simple as possible.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 17, 2020, 09:56:24 pm
content: Quote from: Karel on May 17, 2020, 07:12:08 amAs they should. EDAs are a relatively mature product category and KiCAD is steadily improving. Eventually there will be nothing Altium can do that KiCAD can't and Altium can't compete on price.

author: Bassman59
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 18, 2020, 12:53:16 am
content: Quote from: Karel on May 17, 2020, 07:12:08 amHere's a hilarious quote from Altium, with necessary edits:Quote from: Altium FUD

author: radioactive
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 18, 2020, 01:25:09 am
content: I've worked along-side people who used Altium before, but never used it myself (I talked employers out of it in the past). I seem to remember a co-worker from many years ago telling me that it was written in some obscure language. SmallTalk? something weird that I have no knowledge/experience with. Is that why it only runs on the Windows platform? How many years will Windows still be around for engineering efforts? Seems like Microsoft might be headed in some other direction for the future.

author: Bassman59
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 18, 2020, 01:49:52 am
content: Quote from: radioactive on May 18, 2020, 01:25:09 amAltium DXP was written in Borland Delphi, which is basically an object-oriented Pascal. Back when it was introduced in the previous century, Delphi actually was a good Windows development option. But as the world moved on, and Borland went from being the preferred environment to a has-been, and Microsoft reduced the prices of their tools, few programmers chose Delphi.Altium has been in the long process of re-writing the product for modern 64-bit Windows, while keeping data format compatibility and keeping the user interface the same. I don’t know the state of this transition.

author: voltsandjolts
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 18, 2020, 08:04:52 am
content: Quote from: Bassman59 on May 18, 2020, 12:53:16 amYes, Altium, take a look in the mirror, jeez. You are #1 at ignoring bugs and adding features nobody asked for.I'm an Altium CircuitStudio user (https://www.altium.com/circuitstudio/) and that hasn't seen any updates for over a year, no meaningful update for over two years.In the meantime, KiCAD has come along in leaps and bounds.Total FUD.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 18, 2020, 08:39:13 pm
content: It's like a narcissist projecting their own faults onto those around them.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2020, 11:46:15 pm
content: To the OP:The best thing to do is get a lawyer. Saying Kicad isn't suitable is likely just blowing up smoke (Kicad can do differential pair routing for USB just fine).However I get the feeling the actual problem is much larger. A client is only refusing payment AND hiring someone else if you didn't do the job according to what you promised the client. A client is not going to wait for another contractor to re-do the job if you can finish it in time and meeting the requirements. So in the end it all comes down to what has been promised and what has been delivered.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2020, 12:31:36 am
content: The part of this that has me confused is what does the software used have to do with the equation? Did the original agreement stipulate that specific software would be used? Did the resulting device work as specified? If the board is laid out correctly and the device works then I don't see what difference it makes if it was laid out in Altium, KiCAD, or drafted by hand on a sheet of paper.

author: artag
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2020, 10:15:25 am
content: Presumably they're trying to argue that the job was done poorly because a non-proprietary software package was used to do it. I can imagine a naive judge might fall for that if they can portray the OP as a 'hobbyist'.Better check the legal pads and pencils come from a legal-supplies vendor too. It's about as important.

author: PCB.Wiz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 07, 2020, 05:28:36 am
content: Quote from: fyberlabs on May 16, 2020, 05:33:14 pmHow much money is involved vs lawyers fees ?What has gone wrong in the process, to get the client to this stage ? Half a story here ?Did the point of failure/contention actually relate to the claim of"handle the complexities of a USB D-/D+ pair or something"Rather than respond to the current contractor diversions, you should focus on written communications from the client, aroundwhat was to be delivered, when.Most countries have small claims tribunals, that can sidestep Lawyers for amounts of a few thousand, and they often prohibit lawyers.A clear paper trail is usually the key to success in those.The current contractor is clearly not impartial, but one of the simplest layman's ways to implode claims of disparity, is to point to the 2020 reality :* Altium can import KiCAD files* KiCAD can import Altium files, and has been able to import Altium files exported in PCAD-ASCII for many years. That works quite well.If both tools can import each others files, vague claims of "is inadequate to develop" are not believed by either supplier.There are Projects that were started in Altium then migrated to KiCADHere is one example :https://github.com/FPGAwars/icezum/wiki#news

author: MiroS
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2020, 07:48:17 pm
content: I never heard of it , but maybe there may be a formal certification confirming certian standard required?I can imagine that copro can have such requirement or gov. , or military, or areo space. Signing a contract is never eliminating the need for best practices, at least in EU, if there will be not special statement a contract is not giving the freedom for to ignore so called 'best practices'.I can imagine that not writeln requirement can be like valid calibration for multimeter.Other than that there may be requirement for support and development of tool used for design, e.g. there is big mess in Linux development , it loooked like a horror story last time I considererd to propose kernel code change at kernel.org, I cancelled by myself this ideae, Comparing to this KiCad is well driven project where there is a small team of developers with somebody who knows the targetAll in all never but never heard of a lawsuit against Linux ,e.g for the reason that someone did a huge development using the feature which gone sky in next kernel patch at no warrning.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2020, 08:00:12 pm
content: Quote from: fyberlabs on May 16, 2020, 05:33:14 pmHas your lawyer told you that you need to respond with a defense of KiCAD or are you thinking you should because you read their reply to your summary judgment motion?

author: rhb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2020, 12:42:57 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on May 22, 2020, 11:46:15 pmSpot on.I spent my career as a contract scientist/programmer in the oil industry. I *never* had a dispute with a client. I also would never have sued for payment if the client was dissatisfied. No happy, no payee. I did projects with brick wall deadlines imposed by the US government. So slipping the schedule was *not* an option. Naturally issues arose. As soon as I knew of them I discussed the options with the client. They always knew what they were getting, when and why.Good luck,Reg

author: poeschlr
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2020, 07:02:11 am
content: There is another option here. Above OP mentions that the second contractor was originally only meant to assembly the boards. It could be that this second contractor is the root of all of this. They could simply be a better communicator than OP and have convinced the customer that all troubles faced in the assembly step are OPs fault (even if only partly true).However, it still boils down to a lack of communication. But not necessarily only between OP and the customer but possibly more importantly between OP and the second contractor. For example if they assemble the board then they need the position data. And there needs to be a clear communication line between them and the designer. One typical problem area is the zero orientation of footprints that kind of matters for this task.Or maybe the assembly contractor is used to getting altium projects and has no other software available to create the output for their machines and does not want the customer to fully understand why they request altium after the fact (its still a problem that OP did not check with the intended assembly house what data they need).TlDr: I fully agree with your conclusion about lack of communication but i am not sure it is the communication between OP and the customer but mainly between OP and the assembly contractor.

author: FloridaMan
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: July 24, 2020, 03:12:32 pm
content: This is my first post on this forum.The best approach to non-payment is to see if there is some other recourse, such as a lien, which doesn't require nearly as much legal effort and can be costly for the customer in that it can affect their credit and lending rates. I'm pretty sure circuit boards and chips used to be designed using hand stencils and photographic processes.Another contractor friend of mine provides a default clause in his contracts that, after a certain period of delinquency, it includes interest and penalty rates that are like credit card default rates. He says that he's never recovered those penalties, but when he addresses it with the client, they realize what jerking him around could potentially cost them if things went to court, and he gets paid.

author: ninux
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2020, 07:58:23 pm
content: Quote from: edpalmer42 on May 17, 2020, 04:58:19 amHi, I work at CERN and I'm designing my prototype research board with KiCAD. However, Altium is still the official tool there as it has a long history and all the production is coupled to the tool with their databases and libraries.

author: Mark19960
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2020, 04:25:53 pm
content: So, the "current contractor" has an "opinion" that KiCAD is inadequate.Of course!It was probably part of the sales pitch made. "we use Alitum so we are better"That's a reach.... must have long arms.I have used both. And both did the job I needed them to do. The EDA should not be on trial.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2020, 04:43:28 pm
content: Quote%In the uk,unless something different has been agreed you can charge 8% above the base interest rate and a fixed fee between £40 to £100 depending on the debt level plus any other reasonable costs incurred .Normally a polite reminder to the debtor of these cost is enough to get paid.

author: HendriXML
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2020, 09:42:35 am
content: Quote from: Bassman59 on May 18, 2020, 01:49:52 amJust to add some info from a long time Delphi developer. It can be used to create 64 bit applications. In my opinion Borland made the -kind of fatal decision- to "support" the dot net framework when it came out. It delayed the progress of other stuff, and finally did not payout. Nowadays one could however create crossplatform applications with it, like ios, android, unix, windows. Still going strong. So there shouldn't be any reason for Altium to move to another tool.

author: khs
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2020, 12:22:58 pm
content: QuoteThe question is not KiCAD or Altium.The question is the product meets the USB specifications or not.So I would make a board (maybe with parts required for USB communication only) and check the D+/D- eye pattern by example.If the eye pattern is inside the specifications defined by USB the customer has to pay.Just my two cents.