Modern "music" is shite - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: eti
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2020, 01:24:46 am
content: As a societal barometer, it's not at all surprising to observe how the GOOD "taste" people once had in ACTUAL MUSIC, with tune, rhythm, passion and depth, has all but eroded away to zero, when your Artificial Assistant misunderstands a basic commands, and tells you to "check out this popular music channel" instead of doing what you commanded it to do (set a timer, turn on the lights, etc) and proceeds to blare out some ridiculous (c)rap or hip-hop (the junk stuff, not the good stuff from the 70s or 80s)If this TRASH is what's "popular" - IE - actual people have convinced themselves and their peers that it's worthy of their time, then that just proves the point - society is deeply lost.And no, I'm not just "being a grumpy old man" (and I couldn't care less if I am, modern "music" is turd on steroids) - watch this and see that it's been scientifically researched:.https://youtu.be/oVME_l4IwIII (sincerely) sit and watch old repeats of 70s/80s episodes of "Sesame Street" and hear far better music, and it's actually very catchy most of the time.

author: jeffheath
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2020, 05:12:00 am
content: Quote from: eti on June 03, 2020, 01:24:46 amFrom this, I take it that you like music with tune, rhythm, passion, and depth. Congratulations! So does everyone else on earth.Quote from: eti on June 03, 2020, 01:24:46 amFrom this, I take it that you think that modern music does not have tune, rhythm, passion, or depth. This seems to be a recurring theme among people of the baby boomer generation, as well as younger people, sometimes. You called a thoughty2 video scientific research. I don't even know what to say to that. As far as sesame street is concerned, songs like "manamana" are very catchy, but I'm not really sure what that adds to the argument. You seem to generalize "modern music" as if everything made after a certain date is no good, as if it were a Zenith TV from the late 80's, after their decline. To me, this is a miserable way to look at something that can be so beautiful and creative. I'm not trying to convince anyone who thinks modern music is crap that it's not, (because that's impossible) I'm just pointing out some flaws in your argument.

author: Dubbie
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 03, 2020, 05:19:11 am
content: There was a lot of crap music back in the 60's and 70's as well.It's since been forgotten and only the really good stuff has survived.Old grumpy codgers have been singing your lament ever since old grumpy codgers were first invented.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2020, 05:36:42 am
content: Could somebody remind me what this has to do with engineering? Or even with Covid since that seems to be the secondary topic of the forum these days? Isn't there a better place to rant about how the world sucks and yell at the kids to get off your lawn?Most of the music from every generation is shite, they don't play the garbage on the oldies station, they play the popular stuff. Fortunately for you, you've got hundreds of years of music to choose from and it is more accessible today than ever before, so you don't have to care the slightest bit what music is being made today, you can listen to whatever you want. It's not like music wears out and becomes unavailable, Mozart sounds pretty much the same today as it sounded 200 years ago.

author: chriva
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2020, 05:48:21 am
content: I'm not even a rap fan but listen to today's garbage and compare it against the stuff made in the 90's.We had more crap music back then but at least the radio stations didn't play the worst shit over and over and over...If you want a snowballs' chance in hell to listen to a new song that is actually decent, you're better off just finding a dj (or artist you like that is not a selfish prick) and listen to their live broadcasts / recorded sessions.james_s: This is in "general chat"

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2020, 06:29:09 am
content: It's important to understand that the reason person A finds a piece of music awesome can be exactly the same reason why person B thinks it's utter garbage.Emotions don't make sense physically and cannot be quantified or analysed rationally.

author: Cyberdragon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2020, 06:51:11 am
content: Exactly, by his logic all "oldies" must be "goodies". So that means anything goes then? There was junk ever since recorded music was invented (pretty sure there is even bad/unpopular classical music).I'll just leave you with this to think about what you've said...Funny thing is for the longest time I though this song was a made-for-movie joke as a parody of "oldies"...until I found out it was real which means it had an audience (as also evidenced by some the comments that aren't movie references)...

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2020, 08:03:54 am
content: Quote from: eti on June 03, 2020, 01:24:46 amIf your complaint is about some engineering aspect of the music, please make your point more clearly.If it is just a general winge about the world, then better forums would be Farcebook or Twatter.

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2020, 08:19:25 am
content: i'm gonna just leave this here

author: Rascal
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2020, 10:26:37 am
content: As a teenager my Father would insist that i 'turn down', or preferably 'switch off' the 'crap' I was listening toNow as a Father I insist that my kids ''turn down', or preferably 'switch off' the 'crap' they listen to.And so it will continue.........

author: GavinHemmings
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: June 03, 2020, 10:43:04 am
content: Yeah, I agree with you. That's why I prefer to listen to classical music, jazz, and soundtracks from good movies.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2020, 10:55:44 am
content: I prefer "Symphony of two wooden sticks and two rocks banged together" by Neanderthalers Zog and Ugh.It's very popular. Most hardrock and metal is basically rewashes of it. ( ok , i admit Zog and Ugh never developed the sound of a cat being milked using pliers. That came later )

author: 0xdeadbeef
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2020, 11:27:05 am
content: Even in ancient Egypt people complained about the younger generation. Part of the problem is that the older one gets, the less he/she usually wants to learn and adapt to new things. I don't exclude myself from that.Regarding music, as for many others, my interest reached its maximum between teen age and young adulthood and declined towards my early 30s. Even though I recently bought a few new albums, I feel I'm stuck with certain hearing habits that I can't totally overcome anymore. I figure this is somewhat normal.Another point is that there is just much more music produced nowadays than in the 70s or 80s. It's a similar problem with books and so on: there is just so much media produced that it would cost an immense amount of time to find out which of these offerings would actually appeal to me. When I was younger, the selection was way smaller, but indeed I invested a lot of time to find out what I liked and what I didn't. Now it's more like more of a coincidence when I stumble over a song I like and check out if I want to buy an album.Anyway, it's undeniable that commercial interests have changed music especially when it was totally commercialized in the 90s. Good videos became more important than the music but even before that, radio stations wouldn't want to play songs that were too long or too short. Effects like that continue until today: I read somewhere that habit of quickly checking the first 10 seconds of a song to decide if it's good or not has changed the songwriting in the last decade or so. Long intros or instrumentals between two vocal songs are not popular anymore because of this. Also, obviously, the meaning of an album is devaluated if the songs are sold separately.

author: KE5FX
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2020, 11:54:25 am
content: The guy make some good points, and backs most of them up with solid observations and justifications. It was interesting to learn that a vast proportion of modern radio-friendly music was authored by one of two guys.However, the example he uses to open his argument -- the Beatles -- is interesting only because it's such a rare exception to the rule. Except for that period in music history, I don't think there's ever been a time when the best music could be found at the top of the pop charts. It happened once, in the 1960s-1970s era, but it will never, ever happen again. And plenty of people will argue that it didn't happen then, either.At the same time, it's never been easier to find the good stuff. Use thediscovery toolsthat services like Spotify give you. Listen to truly independent DJs at truly independentradio stations. These days, everybody gets to maintain their own personal charts... which does take a little bit of extra work.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2020, 11:57:53 am
content: Whenever you think that music is worse than in the past remember that mares eat oats, and does eat oats, and little lambs eat ivy. A kid'll eat ivy too, wouldn't you just love that stuff to come back?

author: engrguy42
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2020, 12:22:44 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on June 03, 2020, 05:36:42 amI agree. What has this to do with engineering?? We should stick to the important engineering related topics like "what did you buy today??" and "what does your bench look like??" (each with about 1.5 million views here). Oh, and the all important "Post a cat picture".Now THAT's engineeering.

author: engrguy42
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2020, 01:17:45 pm
content: BTW, not sure if you guys are aware, but recently the International Institute for the Determination of Good Music (IIDGM) determined that, officially, "The Beatles and the Stones were the two most overrated rock bands in the history of the universe". They went on to say "The Beatles were good for nothing more than freakin' elevator music, and the Stones did only poor renditions of those with real soul".Discuss among yourselves.BTW, anyone who wants to claim that the new millennial generation has even the slightest claim to music excellence first needs to explain "The Great Mumbler", Billie Eilish.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2020, 02:03:03 pm
content: QuoteThats exactly what my great great great grandfather said about motzat

author: Syntax Error
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2020, 03:02:54 pm
content: Okay, back to electronics for a moment. Ask, how many of you guys here on the EEVBlog Forum, started your interest in electronics through synthesizers, drum machines, mixers, tape decks, midi controllers, samplers, electric organs, amplifiers, disco decks or electric guitars? Too name but a few. What none of you, some of you, or just about all of you?!Modern music may not sound as raw or as innovative as it used to, but 99.9% of music from the last 50 years is thanks to the creativity of not just musicians, but ELECTRONIC ENGINEERS. From performing on stage on a Mellotron to raving online with a Midi Sequencer, music is as darn tech driven and *modern* as it gets.Worried that you can't say E.D.M. without saying ELECTRONIC dance music? Then plug in your humbucker, turn your Marshall up to 11, step on the fuzz pedal and rock on!!

author: temperance
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2020, 04:27:28 pm
content: Quote from: engrguy42 on June 03, 2020, 12:22:44 pmYou forgot to mention the lab power supply topics.What this has to do with Engineering. The next step.Modern engineers suck as well. Their thesis's are rubbish and they only know how to program arduinos, slap stuff together with python an shit and pressing shields on top of what not. Does my statement convey the message that talented engineers do not exist to you? They do exist. On this forum as well. Young and old. "Which component smells the best when burning" or "how long are the legs of your workbench" topics are indeed more popular. The same goes for music. On the surface there is nothing really interesting to see.About music: there is still good music out there. There are still people composing rock music, playing and reinventing jazz, composing and playing classical music. For every genre you can find, if you spent some time to investigate what's going on out there, you will find that every genre has grown over the years. This music is however not played on radio stations playing pop music.Pop music has always been just popular music. For people making statements about modern music being crap: the music from your teenage years was crap as well. It had nothing to do with music at all. Just marketing. People liked it because they had a sense of belonging somewhere. Is it that what' you're missing?

author: engrguy42
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2020, 05:29:02 pm
content: So temperance, it sounds like you're saying there's good and bad engineers out there. And there's good and bad music out there.Wow. Thanks for the insight.Anyway, I think the one thing that's never discussed in topics like this is a definition of what "good" is. For every person out there, there are 3 different definitions of what "good" is. Nobody defines "good". And most people tend to define "good" subconsciously as "I like it, therefore it's good". Which is ludicrous. Everything's good, and everything's crap, depending on whose opinion it is. And all those opinions are ultimately irrelevant and meaningless. Like saying "I like the color blue, therefore it's the best color".Now if someone came up with a clearer definition (eg, good musicians = technical skill, innovation, popular with many people, etc.) then we could have a more meaningful discussion. Otherwise it's like most other discussions here...baseless, feeling-driven opinion.

author: eti
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2020, 06:02:04 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on June 03, 2020, 05:36:42 am#1: This is "General chat", ergo "general" things we chat about, capiche?#2: goto #1

author: Cyberdragon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2020, 06:15:28 pm
content: You used a goto...how dare you use the forbidden instruction!

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2020, 06:19:25 pm
content: Quote from: chriva on June 03, 2020, 05:48:21 amTrue, and in most cases I wouldn't take any issue with it. If you hang around here for a while though you might notice that the OP rarely contributes anything related to engineering, almost every one of his posts is an angry rant filled with bitter vitriol. He gives the impression of being an extremely toxic person filled to the brim with contempt and hatred for the world and the people around him and frankly it's a drain. With all the negativity going on already I just don't see a lot of value in coming in here to piss on everyone. It's the same tired old rants over and over, the stereotypical angry old geezer lamenting the passing of his youth, ranting and raving about the world having gone to hell in a handbasket and everything sucks and get off my lawn.The rants are old, tired and worn out, they've been around for as long as there have been old people. It depresses me to be getting steadily closer to the grave, still healthy but definitely past my peak I also look back fondly at my youth and wish sometimes that I could go back to those times. Despite this, (ignoring current events which are temporary) the world is not such a bad place these days and it could be worse, living through WWII which happened so soon after WWI must have made everything that has happened this year look like a stroll in the park. The current generation of kids will turn out just fine, there will be some good music produced in this era that people will look back fondly off while moaning about the crap being produced in 2070 or whatever, the cycle will repeat.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2020, 06:32:52 pm
content: Quote from: themadhippy on June 03, 2020, 02:03:03 pmMozart was the metallica of his time...

author: engrguy42
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2020, 06:57:42 pm
content: james_s, do you not recognize that you're doing exactly the same thing as you accuse the OP of doing? Lighten up. Stop the personal attacks, and if you don't like what someone posts don't read their threads.And get the f*** off my lawn !!!!

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2020, 07:28:11 pm
content: Quote from: Dubbie on June 03, 2020, 05:19:11 amGrumpy old codgers just aren't what they used to be. When I was a lad we hadpropergrumpy old codgers. You only had to look at a Parky and he'd be chasing you across the park with his spiked stick before you could say "Jack Robinson". Kids these days don't know what it's like to properly scolded by someone to whom you were just the next scourge after Hitler and the Kaiser and they were ready to tell you so at the drop of a hat: "I didn't fight Hitler for the likes of you to sit around smoking on park benches! Get a job and get your bloody hair cut! Now piss off before this old soldier gives you a taste of his walking stick." They were genuinely scary because they'd lived through two wars, not the "great hair gell shortage of '83" that was the worst that most baby boomers have had to deal with, and would happily lay into you with that walking stick in certain knowledge that any constable that came along would probably get their truncheon out and join in with the old codger.Moaning about "music that kids listen to these days" is strictly amateur hour. Get a walking stick, a Gannex mac, a tweed trilby, some brogues and go and sit on a park bench until some unsuspecting teenager comes into view...

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2020, 07:46:22 pm
content: Quote from: Cerebus on June 03, 2020, 07:28:11 pmBack then we had real grumpy gits like Alf Garnett ('Til death us do part). ISTR reading that the BBC was "afraid" to broadcast them now, but that may be unfounded.Now we merely have Victor Meldrew (One foot in the grave), who is much less aggressive and much less old-school east end working class. I refuse to contemplate that I am beginning to resemble him.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2020, 07:49:10 pm
content: About 30 years ago, we ate dinner downtown before attending the Chicago Symphony concert at Orchestra Hall. While we were getting our coats from the cloakroom, a matron somewhat older than I (at the time) told her companion: "I hope they don't do some of that dissonant modern music like Bartok", to which I replied, "Lady, Bartok died before you were born."

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2020, 07:55:18 pm
content: Quote from: TimFox on June 03, 2020, 07:49:10 pmTake a look at some of the British upper classes (Jacob Rees-Mogganybody?) and you'll realise that tothemBartok is modern. No doubt some of the "my family was on the Mayflower" crowd are similar.

author: temperance
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2020, 08:13:02 pm
content: Quote from: engrguy42 on June 03, 2020, 05:29:02 pmNo, not really. It's easy to say that today's pop music is shite. Maybe it is really bad. You can also conclude that today's popular culture is not what you like and go elsewhere instead of complaining. Along the same lines, it takes more effort then posting a cat or copying code for an arduino from the net.Speaking about Bartok. His compositions fell under modernism. Some people seem to call that modern classical music which is wrong.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2020, 08:17:13 pm
content: Well, Bartok died in 1945. For years after that, Igor Stravinsky was considered modern, especially "The Rite of Spring", premiered in 1913, although I remember when Stravinsky died in New York City (as had Bartok) in 1971. My knowledge of British politics was formed by Monty Python--has it changed since then? Luckily, the Mayflower never made it so far west as Chicago (we have our own problems).Technically, Bach and Handel wrote baroque music; Haydn, Mozart, and Beethoven wrote classical music; Brahms and Schumann wrote romantic music; and so on. However, record stores (remember them) grouped all of the above, along with Bartok and Stravinsky, in the "classical" section.

author: temperance
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2020, 08:36:37 pm
content: Quote from: free_electron on June 03, 2020, 06:32:52 pmIn that time they didn't use recordings of a cat being milked using pliers. They had some sort of wooden boxes with cat intestines which they operated with some kind of bow with hair from horse on it. They can sound great when operated properly. I've been told it takes some skill. Today we have samplers and synthesizers.

author: Bassman59
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2020, 09:12:51 pm
content: Quote from: free_electron on June 03, 2020, 06:32:52 pmAnd Franz Liszt was The Who of his time.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2020, 09:21:00 pm
content: Quote from: Syntax Error on June 03, 2020, 03:02:54 pmSyntax Error, much respect for the VL-Tone you showed. I have one and it was my first introduction to keyboards (I've been playing for a great part of my 40+ years).My W-30 music workstation was my first introduction to the still infant world of music sampling and gave me a serious foundation theory about quantization, sampling and, as a side note, serial communications and protocols (MIDI). To date I still have it and love it.Regarding "modern junk music", it always comes in circles. The OP must be young. When my brother and I were listening to Led Zepellin, Pink Floyd, Supertramp, etc. my dad was telling us to "turn down" or "turn off" that "noise".I am not a big fan of everything modern, but the two YT videos shown before on this thread are fine examples of what is being done nowadays. I also love the collection of Scott Bradlee's Postmodern Jukebox entirely created in the 2010 years, which remakes old and new songs with massively talented performers and beautiful arrangements.

author: John B
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2020, 09:58:59 pm
content: The entire framing of the proposition is wrong. The problem is not modernity or some downward trend in the overall technical and theoretical complexity of music, but rather what is presented through the major channels as being mainstream.We live in the goldenist of golden times of music. You just have to search around for it.Most of the criticisms of modern music could also be applied to "the good stuff" of years gone by. The most common popular music has always been equal tempered, diatonic and rhythmically based on powers of 2.

author: John B
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2020, 10:03:44 pm
content: A good analogy - think of the greatest achievements in electronics, the greatest engineers and the skill and work it took to achieve them.Now imagine a cable TV electronics hobby show.Yeah. That's how I feel about music.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2020, 10:04:07 pm
content: One thing for sure, and which is actually on topic with this forum, is that electronics and software have (sometimes radically) changed the way many people do music these days, and this change is hardly comparable to what we have known in the past IMHO.

author: John B
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2020, 10:09:17 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on June 03, 2020, 10:04:07 pmThat's putting it mildly. We have extensive additive and subtractive synthesis for musical sound.We literally have Universal Constructors for music.

author: eti
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2020, 10:10:52 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on June 03, 2020, 06:19:25 pm"bitter, filled with vitriol and hate" - okkk then - I'll let you off, since you don't know me, ergo are without ANY way to judge me. I could tell you what you "sound like to me", but it would show equal ignorance on my part, and wouldn't be kind.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2020, 10:43:21 pm
content: QuoteAs long as you only want to listen to it,not see the band live.In the uk at least,the live music scene has declined massively .If your an established name theirs still plenty of venues,but the number of smaller 100-200 cap venues has shrunk dramaticallySome of that is down to the punters being able to watch the latest one hit wonder anytime they want online,but a bigger part was due to making live venues jump through multiple hoops to gain a license or forcing stupid license conditions on long established venues due to new residential developments complaining.Mr venue owner has to spend several thousand pounds to comply,or sell it to the highest bidder. Another strange but true statistic is the 18-25 year olds are drinking less,meaning less bar sales,just the ticket price at a small venue wont pay for the staffing and overheads to keep a venue open.My latest fear is several city's looking at introducing congestion charges,want to bring your van into the center at 4pm?no problem thats £100 please,for a band just starting out that could be more than there gig fee.

author: engrguy42
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2020, 10:50:08 pm
content: Quote from: John B on June 03, 2020, 09:58:59 pmI think there's a rational case to be made that in fact the "millenial age" modern music is, in large part, nothing of note. And by that I mean where are the legends and icons? Of course there are good singers. There are always good singers all over the world. And with youtube we're starting to see them. But there's mostly a lot of people copying others' music all over youtube. Where are the ones who are not only skilled and talented, but also produce incredible, innovative stuff that will last for decades?For example, Led Zeppelin. Bonham was arguably one of the greatest rock drummers of all time. Without doubt. And he was together with Page, one of the greatest rock guitarists, without doubt. And Robert Plant arguably one of the greatest rock signers. And the stuff they produced was like nothing before. incredible skills, incredible talents, and they produced stuff that was/is amazing.Where's that now? All we get is some catchy tunes by folks who won't be remembered in 2 years. Where are the orchestras? The incredibly talented groups of folks who have been honing their skills for decades, and get together to produce something special, live and in person. Where are the musicians with actual talent? Good singers are a dime a dozen. And good singers copying others' songs are a dime a dozen. Where are the standouts?I joke a lot about Billie Eilish, but for a good reason. She's a perfect example of the nonsensical attitude of "oh, it's a catchy tune, so she's awesome". Even though she can't even sing, she just freakin' mumbles. The bar has dropped so low that it's freakin' embarassing. I thought it was low with rap music. It just keeps getting lower. Where's the quality, the innovation?Of course there's been crap throughout the ages. Hell, even millions around the globe fawning over embarassingly horrible crap like "Yellow Submarine". But there are also and unending list of examples of real talent and quality and innovation in past years. And not just the ridiculous Frank Zappa "innovation", but stuff that really changed things in a good way.IMO, what's missing nowadays is quality, real skill and talent, and producing stuff that's meaningful and innovative. It's all just a catchy tune inside an entertaining video. And just like the youtube users who can't handle anything over 4 minutes without losing interest, everything in the music industry is now produced down to a few minutes. Gone are the long musical stories, the improvisations. Now it's all just bite-sized BS.Would Stairway to Heaven even exist today? Hell, can you even find a Broadway-type show that isn't just 10,000th repeat of a show that started in the 70's or 80's? Do orchestral concerts even exist anymore? Yeah, there's the occasional catchy tune on the radio by some new, one-hit wonder. But that's not my definition of really good music.

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2020, 12:12:22 am
content: Quote from: engrguy42 on June 03, 2020, 10:50:08 pmAre you kidding me? In normal times I'd just point you to the concert listings for London, or Paris, or Berlin, even Birmingham or Leeds, where there would be several orchestral performances happeningthis eveningin each of those cities, along with chamber music, choral works. Plus Lord knows how many other music genres being represented in those cities in hundreds of live venues. And performances the day after, and the day after that...There are 48 orchestras listed on Wikipedia forLondonalone, 54 for the rest of England, 4 for Birmingham, even Leicester has an Orchestra, so does Bournemouth. And we haven't started on Scotland (10), Wales (4, rain stopped play) or Northern Ireland (1).Where do you live, Vermont? (1 orchestra in the whole state, even Alaska stretches to two.)

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 04, 2020, 12:31:34 am
content: Quote from: eti on June 03, 2020, 01:24:46 amPlease stop posting this off-topic stuff.Thread locked.Next one gets deleted entirely.