Sparkfun ALC,"less expensive than hiring a contractor or employee to design pcb" - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / projects

author: nuclearcat
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 28, 2020, 11:49:14 pm
content: It seems Sparkfun positioning themself as competitor to EE?Especially interesting is this:Quotehttps://www.sparkfun.com/news/3422

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 29, 2020, 12:08:15 am
content: Of a sort, I suppose.I would guess it works this way:They have a sizable ecosystem of protoboards, already laid out and tested. Most of them have simple outlines -- ground pour in the middle, headers at the edge.On the assumption that you're creating a new design (a complete protoboard -- butstill just a protoboard) based on these blocks, it should be simple to copy-paste placement and local routing, and autoroute between them. Design rules may include trace sizes between blocks, so that power can be routed properly for example, and probably won't include high speed (hrm, do they have modules with high speed circuitry on them anyway? I don't know offhand).In as much as you've tested your initial lash-up proto and confirmed it works, and are confident in your description of it (a block-level netlist, essentially), there is very little real design needed to put them together on a single board."Just a protoboard": to facilitate the layout, it's not going to be placed in any sort of optimal way -- it'll take up much more space than a professional design. It can't even haveanycomponents or glue between modules, not even a single pull-up resistor, by the looks of it; and it looks like available power is pretty modest, which probably goes with trace width rules and routing limitations.The way they word it, it sounds like it truly is actually entirely automated, which is impressive. Probably a lot of work went into templating every eligible board design, and the tools to place them, and ensure there's enough room to route between them (or adapting spacing as needed?), then setting up and running the autorouter. Especially if they're doing that with no or minimal human interaction (shoving blocks, components, traces; inspecting output for correctness).Needless to say, EMC is a crap shoot -- who knows. This is already true of the individual boards, and even moreso on a larger board. It's hard to tell if they even put stitching vias in there; ground might be Swiss cheese.So, protoboard it is.In some very lenient applications, yeah, you can even go right into production with it. In most, you'll use it as a time saver, and buy the EDA files as a starting point for further refinement. Even if the SCH and PCB look like ass (I'm guessing SCH is auto-named net labels, one page per block, sort of thing??), it's a lot of help having an already complete design, and just having to review and clean that up for production release.If I were brought one of these designs and asked to production-ready it, I'd probably be able to quote 20-50% less than if I were doing the same design from scratch. (I still need just as many answers regarding form, fit, function, budget and so on, of course. None of this process is psychic about your application.)Tim

author: schmitt trigger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 29, 2020, 12:08:35 am
content: Support if the units experience failures?

author: nuclearcat
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 29, 2020, 12:20:40 am
content: Quote from: schmitt trigger on October 29, 2020, 12:08:35 amI am more curious why they chose such hostile words towards EE, like their protoboard generator can be substitute of hiring EE. They are not making friends between their primary customers such way.They can easily say "speed up and lower costs of your initial hardware prototype development by our automated board generator", etc.But no... and in fact their generator very basic, at least now, and most likely to do any meaningful job still will require some qualified assistance to adjust it, instead it is just convenience fee $949 for "gluing" together their modules, instead of messing up with wires.Ah yes, and for fees they say all is simple and no hidden fees, but same time if you want eagle files, pay $150, otherwise you get just gerbers. This is actually kind of trap for those who use their service instead of hiring EE and then if they decide to modify one thing or two, later.

author: schmitt trigger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 29, 2020, 12:37:32 am
content: Have to give them credit for thinking out of the box.Still, I would think that an EE would still be required to implement and refine the last 10% features.Which as we all know, consume the a significant amount of time and expense.

author: nuclearcat
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 29, 2020, 12:46:19 am
content: Well, they are comparing themself to $20k consultants. I think they are, how to say soft, wrong. (Screenshot attached)And about "15 test fixtures for Burning Man", my guess $20k fee is not for design, but for level of responsibility associated, if this design will screw up on stage.

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 29, 2020, 01:01:31 am
content: They just want to diversify. The business of making small pcb's/breakouts and shields is saturated especially with cheap stuff spewing out of china, and how many "engineers" do they need on staff twiddling their thumbs a fair bit?I think the market for makers soldering together zillions of bits and pieces together and making a lovely ratsnest has maybe climaxed? It looks expensive, messy and super awkward to stuff in a box. Loads of fun but as a kid I could never afford this stuff.SparkFun (and Adafruit to a lesser extent) have not so great designed boards- a pushbutton switch buried, no pcb mounting holes, crapola connectors, or silly high markup etc. I don't see a lot of wisdom or product design in their cute little boards that would inspire confidence for them doing work higher up the food chain.What will be interesting is who owns the IP. I've worked for design houses and corporations, and mixing the two can cause quite a mess.Sure you can design a PCB - but that is not a product nor a solution.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 29, 2020, 02:25:00 am
content: It's kinda-sorta like the Altium dream of never having to do a custom design again, almost everything could be done with existing parts and modules and partial layouts. Didn't work of course.So they are offering a "custom" design for $949, presumably if you use their parts and existing footprints?

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 29, 2020, 03:31:57 am
content: if that kind of method is that simple and stupid that you can gut out all the brains and claim everyone missed everything and a robot can do it cheaper then a professional someone is going to make an ASIC to take the entire industry out (look how useful autorouter is now with FPGA and MCU. The 7400 series logic it was useful for is gone, in terms of scale of use. Do you get 6 cards with 100 chips each on them in a test equipment anymore? (required amount for autorouter to be useful unless you hire some total zombies as employees, that are likely going to be useless for the company anyway, if its smaller then that you might as well ask them to do it by hand so they have something to do lol).I think their hiring a kid to push the autorouter button and talking mad smack.All I see there is the same thing as 'we are gonna hire a whole bunch of contractors and do this cheaper then anyone else in the industry, try to beat our Chinese ways'.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 29, 2020, 03:41:00 am
content: Quote from: nuclearcat on October 29, 2020, 12:46:19 amgee thats a great idea, have fire take out the evidenceis it a gambler saying 'this baby only has to run for 24 hours' or a professional saying 'it can embarrass the entire event'.....?I don't like letting people know end use so much because it gives gamblers the opportunity to try to size you up for life time based on outlandish analysis.

author: nuclearcat
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 29, 2020, 03:50:35 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on October 29, 2020, 02:25:00 amIf you use their "building" blocks. You cant even move them. I tried to add GPS and it placed it next to ESP32.And even worse, here Jay Carlson short review of their "example" board:https://twitter.com/jaydcarlson/status/1321514295843311616And, it turned out before checkout there is important details that make this offer less valuable. Lead times. And it most likely means they have somewhere human EE in sweatshop doing major part of the job, for cheap.

author: uski
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 29, 2020, 04:44:24 am
content: I already dealt with a start up who outsourced their product design (engineering, schematics, PCB) to a student. For cheap of course.The company had absolutely no technical knowledge and absolutely no way to check the quality of the work done.Except that the student did a horrible job with the design... for instance they needed two different power voltages so they simply tapped into different points in a string of batteries (but none of these rails had the same power use).Or, they used a very expensive and rare bluetooth microcontroller module, just because it is the only thing they had experience with, but the system had no bluetooth functionnality at all. $20 per module down the drain, horrible for production, but invisible for prototypes.So they came to me and asked me to "productionalize" the design when it became clear that the student could not do it.. which would have required an entire redesign and actual engineering work (mixed signals sensor work, microcontroller programming, very low power system and battery powered, ...)The problem is that their perception of how much it should cost was based on the crap job that the student has done. So of course it went nowhere.I am afraid it will be the same here. Some companies will pay the $949 fee and get a "complex" design which of course will not be optimized. And then when they will want to go to production, they will not understand that doing an optimized design is worth 10, 20, 30 times more...As usual, doing the first 80% of the work is 20% of the complexity. That's what this service seems to be doing.And the cost as you reach 100% of the complexity is exponential, not linear.I am a bit baffled at Sparkfun overly "spitting" on EEs like this. They are luring their customers for this service into thinking "hey I don't need an EE" but what will happen when these customers will see that they cannot complete the design ? Breach of trust and unhappy customers. So it seems to me that Sparkfun is playing the short term gain game.

author: nuclearcat
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 29, 2020, 05:18:12 am
content: Quote from: uski on October 29, 2020, 04:44:24 amExactly my point. And when such customer will come to EE and ask, hey, i want just to finalize my (Sparkfun wizardy) design, he will find out, that most likely he need to throw it in the garbage bin.Because it is just a bit nicer look arduino-style PoC hardwired(less flexibility) to Sparkfun modules, that cost $949 more.Instead of cooperating with EE to speed up and make PoC/prototype design cheaper, they just decided to go to confrontation. Ok then.Before i used Sparkfun modules in some cases, when i need PoC/prototype, now i will think twice before buying them. I like companies who like to help colleagues, not try to steal a piece of bread from them.

author: aiq25
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 29, 2020, 06:01:19 pm
content: Quote from: floobydust on October 29, 2020, 01:01:31 amGlad I'm not the only one who thinks this. I looked at some of their designs and quite a bit of it doesn't follow general circuit design methods.Quote from: floobydust on October 29, 2020, 01:01:31 amThis is a quote point as well. Along with someone mentions EMC, wonder how all of this will work out.I do wish Sparkfun good luck because they are trying something new but yeah they sounded pretty harsh towards engineers and contractors for a prototype company with such bad designs.

author: nuclearcat
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 29, 2020, 06:33:49 pm
content: About ownership, from their FAQ:https://alc.sparkfun.com/faqQuote

author: VooDust
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 29, 2020, 06:46:04 pm
content: I think it's an awesome service idea.

author: phil from seattle
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 29, 2020, 07:44:57 pm
content: I can see cases where ALC might have some value. Definitely not for a company or entrepreneur that wants to make a real product. But for "one offs" for semi/non-technical types. Maybe proof of concept for pitching investors (who love blinky lights, LCD displays and twisty knobs). Artists that want some whiz-bang LED thingee.Anyone with a modicum of Electronic and PCB design skills can do the same thing (or better) by cribbing from the SFE schematics. Probably in well less than $1K USD hours for the first prototype. And, given the likes of JLCPCB, in less than 2 weeks. The reality is that they are quite a few versions away from anything that people would pay for. Does each iteration still cost $1K?This is kind of the hobbyist equivalent of cribbing from App Notes (which seem to be going away). It's amazing how many "original" professional designs are just slight variations on App Notes.As to pissing on EEs. I didn't take offense to their comments. I see them as trying to (lamely) justify the service as a value proposition. But really all it seems to be is one step above lashing up a bunch of SFE boards hot glued to a piece of plywood. Budget design services have never succeeded.

author: bson
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 29, 2020, 08:03:11 pm
content: To be fair, a prototype is a proof of concept that you can use to go shop for funding, demo, find partners, and so on. A product intended to ship will, or at least should be, a complete rethink. In part because once the prototype has been demoed, there are potential customers, and so forth the goal posts will have moved and the scope narrowed down. It would be exceptional for a prototype to be directly turned into a product so why even try. In fact, it might be a plus that this service makes it adamantly clear it's not a design for a shipping product. It's a cobbled together prototype somewhat neatly stuck to a single PCB.

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 29, 2020, 08:33:02 pm
content: You need someone knowledgeable in electronics to put the Lego blocks together, but the PCB layout and proto board stuffing they can't do, so a person will go with this $1,000 service? It seems out to lunch.Who is their customer for this really? Solar Roadways lol.Taking the (marketing) position of being cheaper than an EE/contractor/employee is a poor way to sell a service. Consulting with a client involves a wide breadth of knowledge and it's not price but rather success that they want in the end. Not some money wasted on a flop because it's 12V not 5V etc.With mains on a board, they'd (SparkFun) better know what they're doing, hint fuse hint hint. Is that a magic automated building block or did the customer not know to include it?There's no mention of safety/regulatory/liability or a related disclaimer for the resulting board.I don't think you can commoditize hardware design without being very careful.

author: jpanhalt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 29, 2020, 09:34:52 pm
content: You said it well.

author: uski
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2020, 05:58:08 am
content: The problem to me is that they are calling this "production"So people are going to think they can use this service and go to actual higher volume production.They even have GSM modules in there, which is illegal as far as I know (certification required almost everywhere).It is really not making their customer a favor to let them believe "production" is just having a PCB built and that it's done.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2020, 06:46:52 am
content: IMO its like saying we are gonna mass produce custom guitars.+ the ownership clause is HUGE for any corporate entity.Who owns the design?Good question. For a variety of legal reasons, SparkFun owns the design, and here’s why: The ALC system is built on automation. Let’s say you drop eight blocks onto a design and then order. If you owned this design, what happens when another customer adds those same eight blocks onto their design? You each likely have a very different target application, with different code, but this other customer needs to use the same eight blocks. For this reason, SparkFun owns the design, but grants you the right to produce and use boards of the design. If you need full ownership, you can purchase the design files to use as you see fit.You just cannot ignore that.

author: nuclearcat
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 30, 2020, 06:52:05 am
content: Quote from: uski on October 30, 2020, 05:58:08 amI am still puzzled, how to use this contraption.Like this 50A mosfet. No FET model to check specs. No maximum voltages. ESD protection seems missing. (Claiming it can drive solenoids in description. HAHA.)Latch terminals doesn't look they can handle 50A. I searched over their website, similar they have is 11A max.Even basic question, where the hell gate will be connected? If it is connected to MCU, which GPIO? They have option to route it to connector, but it becomes arduino to do wire bodging even more, if i use just blocks. And again, does it get connected to MCU by default or not? If yes, means i cannot supply more than 3.3V there. And handling 50A without releasing holy smoke means it might need Vgate 12V+You can't know very critical details - until you reach checkout, and when you paid - no refund. Agree or not, your $1K+ gone.I added just for test max trimpots. It did allowed me to add 16, while useable ADC number on ESP32 is only max 10. (Other ADC become defunct when you use wifi driver)I wonder what is lottery chance they will hook trimpot to this ADC and you will have to unload wifi driver each time you want to use it.And when someone say "Hey, at least they are trying something new", someone pointed out tohttps://geppetto.gumstix.com/, they are super cool, and provide way more superior functionality and way more cheaper.After seeing that, this is just multilayered EPIC FAIL of Sparkfun, they researched market very poorly before doing project and setting prices, they failed to implement it properly so it can be used for something more than few blinkies, and even while marketing they screwed everything up.Even just making PCB with a bunch of sockets and pins for their existing modules, with the right level of automation would be a better idea.

author: nuclearcat
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 30, 2020, 07:23:45 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on October 30, 2020, 06:48:35 amI dont think they are capable to improve it much. If they have the courage to make a public release of a barely working solution, which in most cases generates non-working designs with significant monetary risks for customer...I still believe that such things is evolution. And professions are changing, for ex. the coachman profession almost disappeared, but the driver profession appeared and employed even more people. Or evolution from blacksmith to auto repair.I can expect to disappear professions that don't require any advanced skills, which are mostly routine, repetitive and simple procedures (cashiers, loan compliance officers, janitors) - may disappear or will shrink. Or professions where majority of workers make their best to annoy customers and make them wish to find something where they dont deal with them anymore, like taxi drivers (self-driving taxi).But claims like Sparkfun to automate and replace compex engineering professions like EE by robotic overlords is ridiculous.In theory, it is much easier to make "automation" for programming, but all attempts to abolish the profession of a programmer and to make the creation of algorithms possible by end users.But in reality such claims crashed against a wall of misunderstanding of the very essence of programming. To create algorithms,even by logic blocks you need to be a ... programmer. And if your logic blocks simple as scratch, you program capabilities are scratch alike.And EE is way much more complex subject.

author: AndyC_772
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2020, 11:47:16 am
content: Quote from: nuclearcat on October 28, 2020, 11:49:14 pmWhat they're offering really isn't competing with the type of work I do.Every single customer job I've done since I started has had some non-negotiable constraints which would make this type of 'building block' board unsuitable.In most cases, physical size and layout are important, which means anything that's a standard shape and size is a complete non-starter. Sometimes it's the temperature rating, or the ability to run from a particular power source. It may be that there are performance critical layout issues, or the need to meet some kind of performance requirement that simply isn't possible using a limited range of available components.These boards compete with "real" bespoke designs in the same way as construction toys like Meccano compete with the full spectrum of things that can be made in a machine shop. Yes, you can make working models of certain types of device, but they're always bound by the limitations of the kit, and there's no way you'd ever put something built from one of these kits into production.

author: nuclearcat
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 30, 2020, 03:27:37 pm
content: Quote from: blueskull on October 30, 2020, 06:42:51 amI was thinking about this post for quite while.To be honest, its hard to call soldering process - as a positive process. It seems to me that he is killing future engineers with monotony.After manually soldering 1000 parts, i just literally felt myself dumber :-D I'm glad JLC made it cheaper.About JLC - i know that many friends are ordering at their competitors, like PCBWay, and for even small batches JLC is not an option, any factory in China can do parts procurement way better.

author: bjbb
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2020, 06:04:09 pm
content: I admire Nathan Seidle and Limor Fried - they are some of the founders of the leggo-type 'maker' movement. They have to be respected for this; but they are not seasoned systems-level engineers. An appropriate example of a 'seasoned' engineer in this industry segment is Paul Stoffregen (PJRC). He understands limits, DFT, DFM, reliability, reproducibility, and compliance issues.Based on my experience with their products and support, Adafruit or Sparkfun do not have a staff with the combination of experience, skill, and education that is required to to prototype a system that could be supportable, and would be compliant with safety and EMC regulations, and can be deterministic for manufacturing and test.What SF and AF do well is to crank out a lot of simplistic and somewhat usable components and modules for the hobbyist.

author: phil from seattle
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2020, 06:16:47 pm
content: Quote from: bjbb on October 30, 2020, 06:04:09 pmThis.I always grit my teeth when looking at Adafruit stuff - where are the specs??? Technical details??? Schematics??? It is like instagram for engineering. Or maybe Engineering Lite. At least SF provides links to datasheets and always shows schematics for the stuff theydesignmake. I will give SF credit for going about it with a standards-like approach. QWIIC, for example. And MicroMod may be getting some traction. I like the idea a of super small footprint compute engine. (Though, the astute among us will point out that exists already, it's called a BGA).

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2020, 06:17:44 pm
content: There is absolutely no problem "spitting" at EEs. EEs are not their customers; they are losing no sales. The target audience is people who despise engineering or don't have a freaking idea about it.Sparkfun Engineering, while being a thing, is not actual engineering, and isn't even supposed to be so.I'm sure they have done some good market analysis.The true target are semi-manager type people who admire Sparkfun module hobbyists (sometimes incorrectly titled "hackers") but who are scared of soldering iron themselves, and also don't want to show kludgy wire spaghetti mess to "investors". This is all about startup management. They want to have a simple point&click interface to order something that superficially looks like a proper prototype yet provides the same result that could be achieved by Sparkfun hobbyists spending some time at soldering iron.For this target audience, ~$1k is within budget. They don't want proper engineers because they don't understand engineering, nor have budget to do anything properly, and are scared to hear engineering anything would cost some $20k minimum. But $1k is always available, and "money is no problem" is what they say.Of course, giving the impression that this product is filling any gap is complete bogus. It doesn't; the end result is still just unengineered hobbyist Sparkfun wire spaghetti mess, people can just lie to themselves (and to the investors) it's something else.But, the end result is like any Kickstarter Sparkfun engineerin project:yearsof delays, millions of $, and finally failure to deliver at all. The reality strikes even worse once if there is a false expectation that such service works like a "stepping stone".My general advice is: go for real engineeringas soon as possible! It's OK to brainstorm or mock up an idea with hobbyist modules, really nothing wrong with it, but the more you spend time refining anything with those, it's all wasted time and lengthens the time-to-market. Real engineering requires some 2-3 prototype and 1-2 preproduction cycles some 3 months each, the earlier you start, the earlier you are on the market, and the less money you spend on wasting time (which IS expensive even if you are not paying the engineer you don't have!)Actually this service can be very detrimental since it gives that warm fuzzy feeling things are going forward yet the startup using this strategy hasyetone more such time wasting step before they realize their mistake (or just die, never realizing what actually went wrong).

author: NorthGuy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2020, 06:45:03 pm
content: Quote from: nuclearcat on October 30, 2020, 07:23:45 amMay be not now. But how about 50 years from now, or a 1000. There's no doubts machines can design PCBs and replace all the electronic engineers, PCB designers and alike. Meanwhile driverless cars will replace all drivers. With the advancement of AI, there eventually will be nothing the humans can do better than machines. Humans won't be able to get any job. The human desires won't matter any more. Human fields and farms will be replaced with solar and wind farms to produce energy for machines. Humans lose dominance and get extinct fairly quickly.

author: schmitt trigger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2020, 06:52:49 pm
content: Quote from: blueskull on October 30, 2020, 06:42:51 amI believe this is one of Blueskull’s best posts. It clearly explains in a few paragraphs the momentous paradigm shift happening right now in engineering.The engineering profession has been commoditized, and it is a buyer’s market right now.Not only the engineering pool has vastly expanded, tapping talent from the very many emerging economies, but enhanced automated tools are replacing many tasks previously handled by flesh-and-bone engineers.We engineers were lulled into a sense of security that robots and automation would only replace unskilled labor.

author: voltsandjolts
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 30, 2020, 07:53:47 pm
content: It's only gonna get worse from here.The big investments and advancements happening now in AI tech for self-driving vehicles etc. is going to have many repercussions when applied elsewhere.PCB autorouters will actually produce usable boards. That'll be me out of a job, hopefully I make it to retirement before that happens

author: ucanel
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2020, 07:59:01 pm
content: QuoteComparing to what?From which part of the world?I am EEE in Turkey,minimum wage is under 300$ now.Most of the engineers are working under 600$less than %10 of the engineers are working up to 1500$%5 of engineers are working higher than 3000$For 1500$ per month you may find hundreds ofat least 10 years of pcb design experienced engineers andeach of these engineers would produce at least 4 designs per month .I know because i am one of them.

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2020, 09:22:36 pm
content: These "module" boards have been used to start million+ dollar companies and release actual products to customers. Usually in combination with a large software team.No its not ideal. But anyone claiming "you have to have an experienced EE to finish the hardest 20% of the work", no that is not always the case.Sure, things will fail, reliability may not be great. Doesn't matter to those in charge if sales are made.Quote from: phil from seattle on October 30, 2020, 06:16:47 pmThey post schematics, have you even bothered to look at the website?https://learn.adafruit.com/adafruit-feather-m0-adalogger/downloadsQuote from: ucanel on October 30, 2020, 07:59:01 pmUSA. But your point is valid.

author: nuclearcat
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 30, 2020, 09:27:56 pm
content: Quote from: NorthGuy on October 30, 2020, 06:45:03 pmI dont think we can even forecast 5-10 years ahead properly.I have big hopes KiCAD 6 will make possible "marketplace" for building blocks, where we can, for example, stop wasting hours of routing one more SMPS onboard, copying from pdf, and just copy reference design as whole and adjust for our needs. This will be even better than this poor attempt of automation.

author: Syntax Error
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2020, 10:16:24 pm
content: The computer industry is full of snake oilsolutionspromising an end toexpensive computer programmers; with a holy grail package which generatesboiler-platecode simply by dragging and dropping predefined tools (written by expensive programmers). Think Google-Blocky for big business data. There's often a global launch at CES to shine-shine-shine the BS. A launch which promises deligates full elastic integration from post-it note to CMS, in just one click, with no IT staff in the middle! Sound familiar here EE guys? But at the end of the day, italwayscomes down to a well paidhuman who can, who is left to clear up the crap left by the minimum wage human who though they could, but clearly could not with their over-hyped toolset.sparks are fun, untill they start fires.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2020, 11:18:05 pm
content: Look at those bullshit designs that they created. Relay, that is obviously there to switch mains in the middle of a ground plane, breaking all rules for isolation distances. The idiots placed a wifi module with built in antenna in the middle of a ground plane. What this is is a work of some code monkey, who believes they can design boards, because they found that kicad can run python code. It is an embarrassment.Quote from: Siwastaja on October 30, 2020, 06:17:44 pmI know of a guy, he has a company. He asked a consultancy to deliver him a proof-of-concept board. They did that. It had a blinking LED, so it is obviously ready. He put that into production. Of course it turned into a complete clusterfuck, with a recall, because not listening what he actually had, and having no idea what you actually need. The average manager doesnt even have the smarts to write basic requirements for a product. Basic. I'm talking about stuff, like "it needs to be legally sell-able on the European market, please figure out what this means".I go to some meetings, and I am completely baffled by the over simplification that I'm getting. Not so long ago, when they asked a question why something wasnt finished, I just walked out from the meeting. And then back, with 15 various IEC, IEEE, IPC standards, and several binders with the european law, that the product needs to comply with. It was probably around 1200 pages.

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2020, 02:25:21 am
content: That $949 is just a wee bit more than the burdened labor rate for a single day of competent EE time and maybe not even that. If you get anything that even resembles workable, it's money well spent.The design is unlikely to be the final design but if it works, it is a decent price for "proof of concept".For my projects, I usually buy a development board in "stamp format" (like a 40 pin DIP, more or less) and then just design a daughter card for the peripherals. Then all I have to do is plug in the development board and I'm done. Of course, I don't work on production stuff. In the end, production boards will be custom, optimized and expensive to design.

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2020, 02:39:38 am
content: The downfall to this robo-pcboard service is creating discouraged inventors, makers or even companies.Spending $1,000's on a couple proto designs and likely not having something reliable or workable, as people expect too much. I have seen it before- after spending all that money on something that half works, and it just needs a few tweaks and another run, repeat and repeat- until broke. SparkFun don't care, they'll make money every time.I looked at pics of thesample à la carte boardsand can't stop laughing.Mostly the mechanical is a trainwreck but tons of noob mistakes or worse.The heatsink for the D2PAK mosfet, could not have been done worse. Acres of extra copper sliced off... twice. Tiny little flyback diode. No extra vias on ground pours. Sigh.Rotary encoder next to a relay and good luck getting a front panel/knob on that. Thermocouple wiring next to heater relay wiring? Excellent. Push terminals on the front side of the board? LCD display below every other part on the board? These are impossible to put in an enclosure

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2020, 08:31:00 am
content: Quote from: NANDBlog on October 30, 2020, 11:18:05 pm... or that "60A mosfet" module, which canreallyswitch maybe some 5-10A. Imagine the smoke and fire when a manager type "designer" actually makes a 60A battery load switch with it.

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2020, 08:37:51 am
content: Quote from: rstofer on October 31, 2020, 02:25:21 amMy opinion: first of all, it's $949per iteration. Note, normally you prototype with the sparkfun modules by soldering, testing, soldering, testing, soldering. You easily hit tens of iterationsper day; you'd not normally even count them. Now you wait three weeks an pay $1k for each such iteration; so you have to be a lot more careful, combine iterations in one big iteration; the whole process changes, but the key idea is still the same.So instead, I'd suggest: pay $10-$20/hour to an eager, young hobbyist who's not an actual engineer, but have worked with sparkfun modules before and isn't scared of soldering iron. Let them do their Arduino magic. You'll get a lot more out of the actual ~$5k (assuming 5 iterations) and 4 months of calendar time (assuming 5 iterations, again). They are not bad people, and doing Adafruit/Sparkfun engineering is not wrong, as long as you understand the limitations, and keep iteration fast, cycles short (HOURS, not months), and go forward as soon as possible. Which is what this $949 thing completely prevents.Sometimes, that can even lead to some deliverables; it has worked. If not, step up to real engineering, having proof-of-concept to show. Beware of "real engineers" who get scared if you show them an Adafruit prototype. I've seen them, I like getting to see an actual module prototype instead of justspecification paperwork only.

author: nuclearcat
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 31, 2020, 09:14:13 am
content: Quote from: Siwastaja on October 31, 2020, 08:31:00 amOr when he plug 220V to this barrel plug. Nobody said this mosfet max voltage (nor they say anything in their "constructor", there is no specs at all!).

author: Syntax Error
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2020, 10:32:07 am
content: Quote from: floobydust on October 31, 2020, 02:39:38 amEven as a PCB noob, those layouts are a mystery. The OSH Park site has loads of Open Source hardware boards like these. Spotted the missing pour voids? But those are 'my first' ten minutes on Kicad designs, not a service to replace YOUR skillset as a 10+ year Altium engineer. I wonder if their AI can cut isolation slots?Sparkfun need to add some sort of keep-out rules on those parts. Keep out of the middle of the board. Keep out of the way of mains transformers. Keep out of the hands of middle managers.At least the 2R2 inductor states "Warning: hot!", so at least the device's rating is almost correct.Dave, teardown time?

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2020, 05:02:25 pm
content: Quote from: Siwastaja on October 31, 2020, 08:37:51 amRight, you're a fool to do it that way. So, few will do it that way. Doesn't make any sense to dismiss the idea based on things people won't actually do...What I see likely, is exactly that (snipped): someone (engineer or otherwise) builds a flimsy buttested workingprototype out of building blocks. Then they need a dozen to ship around to departments for further testing. Flimsy prototypes will cost as much labor to build, and may not survive shipping, let alone handling by their users. If only there was an easier way!I've made early prototypes in the 50s qty before, and even bigger companies will run even more. That's from a normal professional direction, obviously; the layouts are good, not nearly this unpolished. But that would be an acceptable quirk in many cases, as long as it's functionally representative, and mechanically robust.It's something to prove out the functionality of the device, generate buy-in from other departments / sister companies, and to begin firmware development on, without having to make early commitments to a whole-ass contract design firm, or hiring an EE team.I've seen more than a few industrial projects started on Arduino. Can't say I've seen a huge amount of SF boards in my time, but there absolutely is professional use of these building blocks.Tim

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2020, 11:34:18 pm
content: Quote from: nuclearcat on October 29, 2020, 12:20:40 amI looked at a few designs but I'm missing things like input filtering, reverse polarity protection, etc. These are still prototype boards. Not something you'd use for a production grade board.

author: johnboxall
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 01, 2020, 12:31:15 am
content: Look at it through the lens of SparkFun. The economy isn't going that well, and they have all these people and tools and production facilities probably not being 100% utilised. They probably get bunches of requests for custom products. So they did some market research and came up with this idea to tax people who arelazynot that well-informed but have money and a basic clue to what they want.

author: nuclearcat
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 01, 2020, 02:05:15 am
content: Quote from: johnboxall on November 01, 2020, 12:31:15 amSo if they think their problems justify marketing PR stunts based on attacking EE job security - they deserve to go out of business then.Their idea, in cooperation with the EE community, could turn into something beautiful and profitable to all.But they chose the path of toxic competition. Well, OK.These days we must help each other, not snatch the last piece of bread from fellow engineer.

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2020, 02:19:28 am
content: Quote from: nuclearcat on November 01, 2020, 02:05:15 amThou dost protest too much...You must not be much of an EE if you feel threatened by this trifle of automation.Tim

author: nuclearcat
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 01, 2020, 02:38:56 am
content: Quote from: T3sl4co1l on November 01, 2020, 02:19:28 amBlueskull said very well "It only drew OUR attention because it hit OUR interest, but it's not uncommon in other fields." Only in reality it is seems even worse.Do you think that this should threaten me personally, so that i start to protest against destructive marketing?So, every man for himself?

author: exe
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 01, 2020, 01:32:41 pm
content: For an automated process the price looks way too big. Also the delivery time of 4 weeks... I won't be surprised if all the work is done by humans. I was to give a name to such service, I'd call itMechanicalElectrical Turk.

author: schmitt trigger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2020, 03:36:41 pm
content: This thread has drifted somewhat, about how AI and or virtual assistants will start replacing human activities.Well, this is the weirdest so far; virtual reality influencers are trumping over flesh and bone ones:https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2020-10-29/lil-miquela-lol-s-seraphine-virtual-influencers-make-more-real-money-than-ever?utm_source=pocket-newtab

author: TimNJ
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2020, 08:31:08 pm
content: This attempt at EE automation is obviously half-baked. I think we can all see that. But, I think it’s clear that, with some more “thoughtful“ design constraints built into the tool, it could be reasonably good for a specific variety of widgets. And if that’s possible, maybe those designsshouldbe automated. Again, providing the tool is advanced enough to have have a clue about EMC, etc.For other types of designs, let’s call them “technically harder”, I feel you’d spend way more time providing proper design constraints in order to get a decent output.

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2020, 09:41:08 pm
content: Yeah, probably for the number of permutations in their library, it would still be more effort to program than to just design each and every one of them.Nevermind if you include simple hacks to interface modules that aren't, by themselves, strictly compatible. You could add glue logic, level shifters, comparators for simple A-to-D, or advanced level shifting; filtering for PWMDACs, filtering and ESD protection for the outside world, etc. Not to mention support for high currents, thermal management, high voltages, module clearances/keepouts, mechanical constraints, etc. The number of support options goes up exponentially, along with nearly 100% of the library being usable together then.And again, anything slightly optimized, hire a real engineer. Token / good-faith efforts could be automated, but don't expect it to pass, expect to have it reviewed at least. And of course there's always ways to abuse modules to fail EMC and such, let alone when software is included in the equation*. Even a small team of engineers will miss things reviewing projects like that.*Famous example from some years ago: FCC passing rules (or wanting to? I forget how it went) regulating SOHO routers, because they're largely software defined, if not in the intimate details (usually implemented on-chip; are they usually mask programmed, or flashed?), then at least in the selection of power levels and channels, allowing users to violate rules/guidelines like using the minimum power needed. And if the RF core is also hackable, then literally anything else that can screw up the spectrum (faulty modulation settings, overdrive causing IMD and harmonics, or even destroying the radio I suppose, which is even a merchantability thing, as is simply bricking your router).Tim

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2020, 10:45:56 pm
content: Quote from: T3sl4co1l on November 01, 2020, 09:41:08 pmIdohope you're joking - \$^nP_k = \frac{n!}{(n-k)!}\$ gets big rather quickly.

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 02, 2020, 02:47:20 am
content: I meant of designs that are desired in a more refined state.Tim