New AMD Ryzen Threadripper Editing Machine - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 22, 2018, 08:05:07 am
content: Getting tired of the issues with my dual Xeon E5-2680 machine editing machine with Windows 10.Thinking about maybe a new AMD Ryzen Threadripper 1920X or 1950X machine.Opinions?...

author: amspire
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 22, 2018, 09:10:33 am
content: It depends if you are going to use GPU rendering or not.I gather that to use the Sony AVC rendering, you need a GTX580 - anything newer currently can only use OpenCL but I gather it is not as fast. Your Xeon would probably be fine with a 2nd hand GTX580. I am not sure if Magix has recently added proper support for newer cards, but last I heard they hadn't. If you find a GTX580, to enable it, "Enable Legacy GPU Rendering" in Preferences.Apparently you can add a second OpenCL GPU for more speed (like the not yet released nVidia Volta).If you are using CPU rendering, the new 180W AMD chip seem to be very fast (see attached graph).From the tests I have seen, there is not much real difference between the DDR4 2133MHz and the expensive DDR4 3600MHz RAM, so spend the money instead on water cooling and really fast M.2 drives or the PCIe cards like the 2500 MB/s Intel Optane cards.I have a GTX580 on a fairly modest machine (An old 6 core Phenom II after my faster CPU/motherboard blew up) and I can do a benchmark test if you like. I have a second PC with the same processor and a GTX1080 so I could do a comparison.EDIT: I only have Vegas 14 and I gather there is a new MAGIX AVC codec in 15. I cannot test that.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 22, 2018, 09:12:33 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on January 22, 2018, 08:05:07 amWhat kind of issues are you having? I used to do some pretty heavy editing using uncompressed video on a single Xeon which is old by today's standards and never really ran into any dramas.

author: 1anX
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 22, 2018, 09:13:50 am
content: Probably a good move, especially when you consider that Intel is in trouble with the Meltdown and Spectre exploits that have delivered a performance hit on their CPU's. AMD claim their CPU's are not effected by the Meltdown exploit and only minimally exposed by Spectre.Plenty of good MB's available, (https://www.anandtech.com/show/11685/amd-threadripper-x399-motherboards) and the performance for video editing looks pretty impressive, (http://www.4kshooters.net/2017/09/18/16-core-threadripper-8k-video-editing-workstation-for-premiere-pro-cc-and-davinci-resolve/).A updated Threadripper 2 will be available in the second half of 2018 and will have a die shrink to 12nm and tipped for a performance lift as well. This means the current Threadripper's price will drop if you want to wait.I think the Threadripper represents best performance and bang for buck at the moment, but need to see comparison reviews running whatever video editing apps you run.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 22, 2018, 09:27:09 am
content: More info here:https://www.amd.com/en/corporate/speculative-execution

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 22, 2018, 09:58:43 am
content: Back on the actual question of performance there might not be much in it either way, the 1950x Zen (Threadripper) has a 10-20% lead in peak flops/ops but has a lower memory bandwidth as the single chip has 4 memory channels the same asoneof the Xeons. It would need aEpycto make a step change up from the existing dual Xeon system.

author: amspire
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 22, 2018, 10:02:09 am
content: Looks like the new Magix AVC codec has direct nvidia support options that cuts rendering over 40% from the Sony AVc with GPU.If you are going to use a GPU rendering, then the Xeon will probably not be anywhere near 100% CPU utilization. So just invest in one (or two) fast nVidia GPU card.My Phenom II 6 core (benchmark under quarter of the dual Xeon CPUs) was at 90% CPU usage when using the GPU rendering for 1080P 30fps Sony AVC rendering.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 22, 2018, 10:24:07 am
content: Quote from: amspire on January 22, 2018, 09:10:33 amVegas 15 supports new cards it but it too buggy. I've done videos on this.I've also used the fastest GPU card available for Vegas 14, it makes it slower.QuoteFast drives do not help my rendering.QuoteDone several videos on this.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 22, 2018, 10:25:05 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on January 22, 2018, 09:12:33 amIt's compatibility problem with Windows 10, not editing problems (apart from Vegas 15).

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 22, 2018, 10:28:03 am
content: Quote from: amspire on January 22, 2018, 10:02:09 am

author: kalel
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 22, 2018, 10:41:01 am
content: I don't have to check all of the videos yet (I might have seen some of them - but I couldn't remember the content), but what are the issues involved?(This goes for everyone) have you also considered AMD GPUs if using OpenCL?

author: Electro Detective
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 22, 2018, 11:03:02 am
content: I'm betting the Xeon rig is too busy keeping Windows 10 fed and happyand not doing the actual tasks required by the frustrated user efficientlyI would consider updowngrading to Windows 7 Ultimate SP1, or better still Windows Server 2008R2If the programs/apps and hardware claim to run on Win 7, 8, and 10,why not run it on 7 ?and let MS do their own Win 10xxx beta testingStay clear of Radeonhalf baked driver junknVidia/GeForce are still KING in video cards with solid working driversFWIW, I've never had an issue running Vegas 14 or 15 on AMD gear, Win 7 x64Then again, if you've got some spare cash to buy the latest AMD rig and see if it fares better with Win 10... we patiently await the outcome

author: amspire
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 22, 2018, 11:43:27 am
content: Just had a quick scan through the video's.I gather you haven't tried the GTX580 card that can use the Cuda cores (I think). You would think the newer cards should be faster.I didn't see you monitor the CPU and GPU load (GPU-Z.2.5.0.exe is a simple tool for the GPU) to find out of you were CPU or GPU limited.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 22, 2018, 12:06:53 pm
content: Quote from: amspire on January 22, 2018, 11:43:27 amI used a Radeon R9 290 card, supposedly even faster if IIRC.QuoteIt was not CPU limited.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 22, 2018, 12:15:03 pm
content: BTW if you get right motherboard, you can use unbuffered ECC RAM (non official support). Nice to have on a machine where you process large files. And just for general stability as well.

author: hayatepilot
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 22, 2018, 12:32:57 pm
content: The PC will probably run more stable with just a single CPU.I'm getting the feeling that WIN10 is not all that stable on dual CPU systems.And your MB is not properly supportet on WIN10.With Threadripper you are getting better bang per buck than with a i9. So it's probably the best choice.I would say go for it! Nothing is more annoying than a buggy, crashing PC. An upgrade that fixes that is well worth the money.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 22, 2018, 12:40:33 pm
content: Quote from: hayatepilot on January 22, 2018, 12:32:57 pmI might try and disable one CPU and see.In BIOS, or physically remove it?

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 22, 2018, 12:40:42 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on January 22, 2018, 12:15:03 pmI thought Win 10 doesn't support ECC RAM ? Last time I read only at Linux, cmiiw.

author: kalel
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 22, 2018, 12:50:52 pm
content: I would likely use AMD GPU if OpenCL is utilized (at least in Windows, drivers should be better for OpenCL than nVidia - or maybe that's just how it used to be), and obviously nVidia for CUDA.But the actual choice depends also on the price/performance of available models at a given time. Sometimes nVidia is more cost effective, and sometimes AMD.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 22, 2018, 01:01:45 pm
content: Quote from: hayatepilot on January 22, 2018, 12:32:57 pmWell, than Threadripper is an excellent choice, considering it is just two CPU glued together. With random latencies introduced and maybe worse performance than a monolithic CPU.I guess the only way of knowing, if TR CPU would be worth it, if Dave would test his usual rendering setup on a TR machine. And if it would be worth the investment, or not.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 22, 2018, 01:04:32 pm
content: Quote from: NANDBlog on January 22, 2018, 01:01:45 pmActually, I think David2 just bought a Ryzen for home, not sure if threadripper or not

author: hayatepilot
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 22, 2018, 01:06:43 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on January 22, 2018, 12:40:33 pmI don't know if it's possible to disable a entire CPU in the BIOS. Individual cores can be disabled for sure.Physically removing the second CPU should work regardless.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 22, 2018, 01:11:41 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on January 22, 2018, 01:04:32 pmThe two CPU uses such a different architecture, it is hard to predict how your workload will work on it. Probably it is fine, and you get 2x performance for 2x the cores, but you should be careful making those assumptions.

author: hayatepilot
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 22, 2018, 01:19:23 pm
content: Quote from: NANDBlog on January 22, 2018, 01:01:45 pmYou sound a little bit like Intel back in July when they called them "glued together"....http://www.pcgamer.com/intel-slide-criticizes-amd-for-using-glued-together-dies-in-epyc-processors/https://wccftech.com/amds-reply-to-intel-calling-naples-epyc-4-glued-togather-desktop-dies/

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 22, 2018, 01:27:59 pm
content: Quote from: BravoV on January 22, 2018, 12:40:42 pmECC does not care about OS to operate, another thing is how much diagnostic data you can get from OS. On win 10 will see corrected hardware error event if ECC corrects some error.

author: amspire
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 22, 2018, 03:43:54 pm
content: I finally finished my other rendering and was able to do some proper tests on my system.It turns out for vegas 14, the GPU is definitely only used for rendering if you have a GTX580 or AMD 6XXX card. So they are the best GPU's that work with the Sony or Mainconcept AVC. Sony/Magix just never updated them for the newer faster cards.It took about 6:20 for Sony at 1080P 50P and 3:40 for Mainconcept at 1080P 25P (it does not do 50P) with the GTX580. Now my CPU's were the limiting factor (AMD Phenom II 1055T) and if I look at the usage of the GPU card and extrapolate for a dual Xeon, I probably could do just over 1 minute for the Sony 1080P 50P and about 1:10 for the Mainconcept 1080P 25P.So a GTX580 GPU with the Sony AVC codec is a real possibility for rendering 1080P 50P at double real time. That is twice the speed Dave was getting with the Magix AVC encoders. I cannot prove it though - I just do not have a faster CPU right now. In real terms, the dual Xeon could be 10x faster then my 7 year old Phenoms, so I would expect the Xeons to be running at about 70% CPU with the GTX580.I used the same clip Dave was using in his videos 2 and 3 - the first 2 minutes of the flaming power supply video. The only difference is instead of using Dave's edited source files, I was using 720P downloaded files that had been converted to 1080P 50P.The other PC I have has an GTX1080 which is absolutely useless with Vegas 14. The GPU usage never gets above 1% and that is just for screen rendering.So I tried the demo of Vegas 15. Luckily the demo allows me to render a file as long as it is under 2 minutes.With the same settings as Dave, I got 3:23 with 10% average GPU and 70% average CPU. Now this is still the Phenom II, but it was odd how sporadically the GPU was being used. It was actually doing a bit at 20% then a bit at 0%. I don't know if this is due to an inefficient codec, or an inefficient CPU.It would be interesting to see with the dual XEON what GPU usage did Dave have for the 2 minute renders. You would think that with 10x faster CPU's, the render would have to run much faster.Richard

author: TheAmmoniacal
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 22, 2018, 05:28:00 pm
content: I have a Threadripper 1950X machine, on an ASRock X399 Taichi motherboard. I'll happily run some benchmarks if you want.

author: kalel
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 22, 2018, 05:29:16 pm
content: Sorry to go a bit off topic, but does Vegas not offer nVidia/AMD GPU specific encoders? I'm not experienced with this software.

author: Electro Detective
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 22, 2018, 11:56:40 pm
content: Before exiling the Xeon rig to a far off corner in the lab...consider a clean install ofWin 7Win 10 (no updates, no internet connection, no nothing) and Vegas 14, and nothing else,on a separate hard drive, be it SSD and or fast hard drive, and go from therePretty sure you can install Vegas 15 alongside 14 later (in Program Files > Vegas folder/dir ) and run with either (or both!) and compareIt's just over one hour to set it up on a new or spare hard drive, and may save money and further frustrationI can't see how pulling one of the processors is going to improve performancebut may be worth a shot if only to lay it to restIf you go for an AMD Ryzen, hit the AMD user and gamer forums and find out what exact components will give good rendering speeds,if you're lucky someone's already done it,or post the question.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 23, 2018, 12:05:52 am
content: Quote from: amspire on January 22, 2018, 03:43:54 pmTherein lies the problem, the source files make a huge difference.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 23, 2018, 12:10:50 am
content: Quote from: Electro Detective on January 22, 2018, 11:56:40 pmDid that, full clean install.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 23, 2018, 12:18:08 am
content: Ok, something strange is happening, I just retried it on the same render test on Vegas 15, and I now get 1:09 for the 2min clip using NVENC at 1080p50 on the GTX1050 card.Was 2:40 using the Mainconcept encoder at 50pInterestingly, different file sizes. 179MB for NVENC, 190M for Mainconcept.I tweaked a few things in the BIOS to try and fix my windows problem, maybe that had an effect?It was 1:47 in my previous video.I'll upload the sourse files so people can play.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 23, 2018, 12:19:30 am
content: 'tweaked a few things'.What things?

author: amspire
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 23, 2018, 12:25:47 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on January 23, 2018, 12:10:50 amTrouble is that Vegas 14 has to have GTX580 GPU - then you will probably halve the render times to 1 minute. Any later GPU will not do better then the CPU. A GTX580 on ebay seems to be about $150 or cheaper. For 1080P, I seemed to be using about 800MBytes RAM on the GPU so a 1.5G RAM GPU would be fine.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 23, 2018, 12:30:17 am
content: Quote from: Electro Detective on January 22, 2018, 11:56:40 pmBut you'll also want stability and that is often forgotten. What works at home usually doesn't work in a heavy use environment. I'd concentrate on getting good hardware first (a Dell or HP workstation with good airflow, Intel CPU(s) and ECC memory) so at least you know the system is stable and any problem you have is really software related. Fast rendering doesn't help if you need to re-render 1 out of 3 files. Maybe moving to Linux as an OS may help as well because it can cope better with heavy processing tasks and isn't bogged down by all the extra Windows 10 fluff.

author: amspire
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 23, 2018, 12:44:52 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on January 23, 2018, 12:18:08 amAnyone using the demo Vegas 15 can only render under 2 minutes. 1:59 is fine.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 23, 2018, 12:49:15 am
content: Files here:https://www.dropbox.com/s/msop0wx8slbu13l/RenderTest-2min.zip?dl=0Just a single clip extended to 2:00Vegas 14 and 15 project files.

author: gnif
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 23, 2018, 12:52:32 am
content: I just finished a 16 core TR build, I do very little with this kind of thing but if someone want's to throw a step by step of how to render this video in Linux i'd be happy to provide my results. I also have a Vega 56 and a GTX 1080Ti at my disposal for testing.I have the machine clocked at 4GHz with 64GB of RAM @ DDR3200 on a custom water loop, it should be able to eat up anything thrown at it. For testing I currently have it mining Monero (XMR) at 1400H/s on the CPU alone.

author: Terrius
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 23, 2018, 12:59:36 am
content: Threadripper is really good price to performance wise. Personally I would go with the 1920X, simply because in a majority of cases software can't utilize the extra cores from the 1950X. Threadripper is two Zen dies on one chip so while it is a different socket than Ryzen it is the exact same architecture, though Threadripper CPUs are made with the top 1% of Zen dies according to AMD. If you are considering the 1950X then you should also investigate the I9 7900x which is supposed to be the same price and in certain benchmarks outperforms the AMD chips.In reality there is no stability difference between Intel or AMD platforms now that the Zen architecture has matured (and board partners have spent time working out the bugs in their Bioses). Like any new architecture it had growing pains (just like Intel). A lot of the issues with the Zen architecture stemmed from the fact that the launch was sooner than partners expected. In addition partners were hesitant to release a variety of boards due to past market issues with AMD hardware.In the end it likely comes down to, would the increase in performance and reduction in rendering (and handbrake) time be more valuable than soldiering on with your current system? Single socket systems usually have fewer issues than multi CPU systems (unless you use windows server), so perhaps that is a factor as well? Another thing to consider is the fact that both AMD and Intel have new CPUs that will be launching in spring and early summer (for threadripper 2), so whether it is worth waiting is something to decide on as well.

author: gnif
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 23, 2018, 01:06:25 am
content: Quote from: Terrius on January 23, 2018, 12:59:36 amCorrect except the Ryzen doesn't break out the extra PCIe or memory lanes. Personally I would never buy a TR (mine was donated for open source development work), I am in complete agreeance with Terrius that for a desktop or even small office server a TR is massive overkill, not much is ever going to take advantage of it. I plan to put it to use running a ton of VMs in which case the cores really do help, but not many people would care to do this.

author: Electro Detective
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 23, 2018, 01:23:12 am
content: Hardball:Find out what hardware the Vegas developers currently use or recommendwhich operating system/s used/tested,what optimal performance should/could/might be expected with Vegas 14 and 15, or what they get with their in-house gearemail someone at Support, you might get lucky

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 23, 2018, 03:03:44 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on January 23, 2018, 12:49:15 amThanks for the source files for examples, rendering out to H264 for youtube takes just under 1 minute here. Thats running the free version of DaVinci Resolve on a laptop (MacBook Pro, but its available all windows/linux/mac), resulting in 140-180MB files depending on quality settings and direct without any transcoding or intermediaries. So you should be able to do much quicker on a desktop platform.

author: TheAmmoniacal
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 23, 2018, 06:39:42 am
content: Threadripper 1950X, Nvidia GTX 1080 Ti GPU. Rendering your 2 min sample project.MAGIX AVC/AAC MP4, Internet HD 1080p 50 fps (Nvidia NVENC): 1:14 minutes- CPU usage at 30% average, 50% max, 20% min.- GPU usage at 12.5% throughout the render- File size 301 MBThe non-NVENC version of the same template took 2:35 minutes, CPU usage ~93-95% throughout the render. File size 290 MB.MAGIX ProRes, ProRes HQ - 1920x1080-50p: 3:58 minutes.- 43.5% CPU usage- File size 4.81 GBIntel HEVC templates all took >6 minutes.Tried many other templates, but they all gave a crappy render.

author: amspire
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 23, 2018, 06:54:54 am
content: Quote from: TheAmmoniacal on January 23, 2018, 06:39:42 amThis is what I was noticing with the NVENC renders.CPU at 50% - GPU at 12.5%Nothing is happening much on the hard drive.What is throttling the render speeds? Why isn't either the CPU or the GPU near 100%? On my slow system, it appears the GPU usage is very intermittent dropping regularly to 0%.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 23, 2018, 07:15:25 am
content: Quote from: amspire on January 23, 2018, 06:54:54 amMemory bandwidth between the CPU and GPU are likely to limit their utilisation, or poor distribution of the process not pre-emptively loading frames ahead (should be no problem with total memory capacity for a single 1080p stream).

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 23, 2018, 08:09:45 am
content: Quote from: TheAmmoniacal on January 23, 2018, 06:39:42 amWow, thanks. That confirms it, a new Threadripper machine would be a waste of money.Mine is a tad faster than that with the GTX-1050tiBTW, by CPU (dual Xeon) runs about 50% using NVENC.Also, I'll be damned, Magix fixed the exact XSplit audio bug that was preventing me using Vegas 15:https://www.vegascreativesoftware.info/us/forum/vegas-pro-15-update-2-build-261--109529/I find it remarkable that the program has to support all these different program outputs. Isn't MP4 fairly universal?

author: Electro Detective
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 23, 2018, 08:42:40 am
content: https://support2.magix.com/customer/en/vegas/form"Support request: Have a question about VEGAS Software? Get assistance from our experts."i.e. it's their baby, ask them what gear they use or recommend, or solutions to rendering spannersPerhaps Mr. MathiasH may consider to sign up to EEVblog and sort out the host's issues?I reckon there's quite a few Vegas users here... I think

author: hayatepilot
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 23, 2018, 08:53:38 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on January 23, 2018, 08:09:45 amYes, your dual XEONs are already pretty damn fast.But were you able to solve the windows problems?

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 23, 2018, 09:40:11 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on January 23, 2018, 08:09:45 amWell that is a simple case, when moar cores isn't better.I guess you should take a look at the Core i9s then? They had terrible motherboards. The early units did not have VRM strong enough to power the CPU.

author: TheAmmoniacal
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 23, 2018, 09:46:51 am
content: The software is clearly the bottleneck here, not the hardware. Ask the developer what hardware they recommend.

author: kaz911
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 23, 2018, 10:10:58 am
content: btw - if anyone wants an ULTRA clean Windows 10 without the junk - lookup Windows 10 LTSB.Microsoft does only supply it to "volume subscriber" clients - but maybe there are ways of getting it. Latest version is a 2016 build. It DOES get all security updates but not all the feature updates. Next release will be a 2018 build at some point. My next re-install will be Win10 LTSB based.My Thinkpad P70 Xeon/NVidia M2200? does pretty well on encoding on Vegas Pro 15- one 1920x1080 output mp4 I encode at about 120-150% (so 100% is 1:1 = 1 min output = 1 min encode time) - so right now 1 minute output takes about 40-50 seconds to encode - with plenty of mixed sources 480p/720p/1080p60f etc) - but I have an external USB3 SSD for the projects and that helped a lot. Still not using 100% CPU or 100% GPU - but acceptable.Just too many "exceptions" that kills Vegas IMHO.so I'm eagerly awaiting the next build. Why there is not better exception handling in Vegas Pro I do not know.....

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 23, 2018, 10:46:15 am
content: Quote from: hayatepilot on January 23, 2018, 08:53:38 amNo. I cannot upgrade to the latest release, it just locks up at 33% install regardless of how long I leave it.And every time I boot it locks up, I have to hard power off and start again and italwaysworks a 2nd time.

author: borjam
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 23, 2018, 10:51:38 am
content: At the risk of being stoned to death...Have you tried Final Cut Pro? Yes, I know, on a Mac. I have used it since ages. Many years ago I even edited a TV adon a 12 inch Powerbook G4 and it worked.When ingesting video it converts it automatically to Prores, an efficient format especially designed for edition, and it works like a charm. At least in my experience.

author: kalel
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 23, 2018, 11:54:18 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on January 23, 2018, 10:46:15 amAssuming it locks up in Windows and not before, could you try booting in safe mode (just set it to boot in safe mode before turning on the next day)? Just to see if it will boot properly the first time or not.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 23, 2018, 12:39:27 pm
content: Quote from: borjam on January 23, 2018, 10:51:38 amYes I have tried it, and it sucked and was slow. Zero benefit.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 23, 2018, 12:40:10 pm
content: Quote from: kalel on January 23, 2018, 11:54:18 amDone that, doesn't help.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 23, 2018, 01:07:20 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on January 23, 2018, 10:46:15 amWhat kind of machine do you have now? Is it a self built system? I'd let memtest do a full test on the memory. Something working the second time is very fishy and might be a memory problem.

author: borjam
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 23, 2018, 02:17:33 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on January 23, 2018, 12:39:27 pmNow I'm curiousWhich machine and Final Cut version? Could you share a bit about your workflow? (Source video format, etc).

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 23, 2018, 02:38:07 pm
content: Dave, have you ever tried doing approximately the same workflow on Linux, at least the ripping part of it?You might be able to use GPU rendering on Linux more successfully than on Windows, that wouldnt surprise me at all.If you want to try that, an easy way to get it set up is to use Debian and enable the Debian Multimedia repositories- but bear in mind that this will update a lot of stuff irreversibly from the current Debian versions. Debian Multimedia is more like running Debian unstable or testing, its around a year ahead of Debian stable.This is their web site. If you do this, I would just do it as an experiment, and I am saying it with the caveat that I have not done it myself because I have no idea how good the DMO stuff is for security..But they do have a lot of nice content creation apps and codecs, etc, which the regular Debian repositories have much older versions of or don't have at all.http://www.deb-multimedia.org/

author: hayatepilot
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 23, 2018, 03:09:06 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on January 23, 2018, 10:46:15 amThat is a tough one...I assume you have all motherboard drivers on the newest version for WIN10?

author: amspire
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 23, 2018, 03:27:23 pm
content: There have been issues about upgrading to Windows 10 Fall Creators edition, but I have also found it one of the best Windows versions to do a clean install with.It is pretty good at finding drivers online. Reinstalling Windows is a pain, but a brand new install of the latest Windows 10 does seem to run very nicely.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 23, 2018, 10:04:05 pm
content: Windows 10 likes to update drivers on older machines with some generic crap without asking. Often it get things broken. Like my laptop made in 2014, this stupid crap updates ME drivers and causes some weird ass issues which seem like occasionally happening hardware fault. The only way to get it working properly is to disable particular driver update, otherwise it will again replace the driver.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 24, 2018, 04:07:53 am
content: Quote from: cdev on January 23, 2018, 02:38:07 pmI do not want to use Linux.GPU is working just fine now.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 24, 2018, 04:09:09 am
content: Quote from: hayatepilot on January 23, 2018, 03:09:06 pm

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 24, 2018, 04:12:12 am
content: Quote from: borjam on January 23, 2018, 02:17:33 pmI know everyone wants to help, but sorry but I've gone over a this dozen times before, I'm not going to discuss moving to Mac, Linux, or another editing program.

author: dryjoints
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 24, 2018, 05:37:07 am
content: Dave, what is more valuable to you - time or money? If you value your life (most sane people do) then how about you just buy a 5K iMac? Arguments for and against can go on forever, but for a professional YouTuber with time at a premium, I am extremely surprised that you're still fiddling around futzing and schmutzing with tin box computers and asking random internet folk about processors... seriously, you're wasting so much time and energy on this faffing about. Do you want to buy a screwdriver and removed screws with it, or design a mould for the handle, machine it out, choose a resin for the handle... make a steel shaft... shucks man, just buy a Mac and quit wasting your life on this kids play rubbish.YES, you like and are used to your current NLE - well guess what, we all HAVE to learn new things, so either you wanna edit and publish videos like a pro, or you wanna keep dilberting around with half-baked custom PCs, because you enjoy this nonsense of "sticking it to the man" ("the man" being Apple, most likely, I can hear your words ringing... SCREECHING in my ears, son.) If you "enjoy" building PCs like someone who's just discovered that modules plug together, have at it...or just get a Mac and let Apple take the strain of concerning themselves about what fits where, what driver does what.PS: When WAS the last time you gave FCPX a fair go - 2009? Come on man, I can't take you seriously unless you open yourself up and try AGAIN, sheesh.Macs are the de-facto editing machine for professionals.

author: dryjoints
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 24, 2018, 05:38:13 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on January 24, 2018, 04:12:12 amKeep suffering then.

author: TheAmmoniacal
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 24, 2018, 05:39:05 am
content: 5K iMac? Why not a Surface Studio?It's funny seeing all the directions people want to pull Dave, Linux, Mac, Final Cut..

author: dryjoints
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 24, 2018, 05:41:45 am
content: Quote from: TheAmmoniacal on January 24, 2018, 05:39:05 amBecause... they're a gimmicky piece of shite with mobile parts, and because Apple support WORKS and doesn't palm you off, and because a Mac IS the right tool for the job, any pro worth his ££ knows that this topic is never even up for debate, it's a given, has been for decades.And I agree, Linux... really?Okay if you have 30 years to work out all the bugs that the FOSS hippies can't be bothered to fix.

author: TheAmmoniacal
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 24, 2018, 05:44:22 am
content: But Sony Vegas Pro don't run on Mac, and Dave does not use Mac, so it's a moot suggestion.

author: dryjoints
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 24, 2018, 05:46:21 am
content: Quote from: TheAmmoniacal on January 24, 2018, 05:44:22 amYou can lead a horse to water... but Dave is a mule.

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 24, 2018, 05:49:13 am
content: Quote from: dryjoints on January 24, 2018, 05:37:07 amI assume with your bold statement here, you are a pro video guy for a living ?Mind share few of your works ? One or two uploads to Youtube to convince us or especially Dave.

author: dryjoints
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 24, 2018, 05:54:50 am
content: Quote from: BravoV on January 24, 2018, 05:49:13 amAsk 100 pro YouTube channels what they use, the answer will resound the same across the majority. I am not allowed to share my profession or works due to various contracts, suffice to say that I'd not expect Dave (or you) to take just my word for it, create a poll on a YouTube publisher forum, the answer doesn't even need announcement, it'll smack you right bang between the eyes.

author: dryjoints
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 24, 2018, 05:57:55 am
content: Quote from: borjam on January 23, 2018, 02:17:33 pmHe'd never answer that, as that would prove the prudence and logic in your questions, he just wants you to leave it at "it's slow and it sucks" - that suits him better, he always knows better, our David.

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 24, 2018, 06:00:41 am
content: Quote from: dryjoints on January 24, 2018, 05:54:50 amLOL ... your reply is expected, gotcha, no different from ->HERE, a well known troll.And no, people here in this forum don'ttakeswallow other's words easily, although sometimes I did, but only to few respected people that have proven their "credibility", not just because they say so.

author: dryjoints
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 24, 2018, 06:02:50 am
content: Quote from: BravoV on January 24, 2018, 06:00:41 amOkay then, if that pleases you.

author: hwti
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 24, 2018, 06:05:31 am
content: Regarding GPU utilization : HW video encoding is mostly done with a specialized IP block (like a DSP), the shaders are only used for preprocessing (and effects if any).So I assume you can hit the maximum encoding speed with the shaders/memory/PCIe bandwith/... not saturated.But there could be bottlenecks in the software, in decoding, ...For 1080p H264, good SW encoders (like x264) should be pretty fast on powerful CPUs, especially with low quality settings (as we are comparing with HW encoders).But I understand you are limited to what your editing software allows.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 24, 2018, 06:17:32 am
content: Quote from: dryjoints on January 24, 2018, 05:54:50 amTop you tube personalities are outsourcing their production. The "pro" end of the video world is a little more diverse than you make out:https://www.hdvideopro.com/blog/my-editing-program-is/Avid and Premier are the dominant NLEs at the moment and platforms are split between Mac and PCs with PCs likely in the majority these days as Apple stopped updating their high performance pro machines.For most people its not that difficult to transition from one NLE to another, but Dave remains stuck with his inaccurate view of the competition so we can just leave him with it and there is no point trying to convince him as he's biased and not playing at the pro end of town where time is money and the tools can be scaled up.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 24, 2018, 06:30:47 am
content: Quote from: dryjoints on January 24, 2018, 05:37:07 amDo you even know the level of my editing?Let me inform you, it's so incredibly basic I could do it with Microsoft Movie maker.I don't need any fancy professional editing tools.The absoluteworstthing I could do to waste my time and effort for almost zero gain would be to change operating systems.Everythingwould change that I would have to learn again from scratch. Not just the video editing tool, but the image tools, the audio tools, the screen capture tools, the live show tools, and the list would go on and on. Not to mention all the other windows tools that I use for design and other stuff.So you recommend I do that for what end benefit?Will a Mac and FinalCutPro make my video editing faster and more efficient? No it won't.Will it make my rendering faster? Maybe, maybe not, who cares, that's hardly a reason to changeeverything. In fact doing so just for that would be stupid.Now, if I did fancy pancy videos with green screens and fancy effects and all sorts of stuff, then maybe a Mac and FC might have some advantages. But other than that you are demonstrably wrong. You clearly know nothing about my video workflow or requirements.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 24, 2018, 06:32:21 am
content: Quote from: Someone on January 24, 2018, 06:17:32 amBullshit, I've tried both of those tools and the workflow was harder. Not harder because I didn't know how to use it, hardware because it required me to jump through more hoops to do the basic stuff I need.

author: dryjoints
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 24, 2018, 06:37:07 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on January 24, 2018, 06:30:47 amI see now. I'm sorry I was a know it all, I was rather arrogant and made a lot of assumptions; sorry Dave, I sit corrected, and yes, you know what you need to do more than we do, of course.Thanks for the explanation and not blowing your stack, haha.

author: Electro Detective
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 24, 2018, 07:30:43 am
content: Mr. DJ simply needs the right Win 10 install that's compatible with his rig, maybe a Server 2016/2012/2008R2 trial,and the latest Vegas Pro 14 and or 15 posted at Magix, or is it Movie Studio he uses?and change and update NOTHINGif he hits on a winnerBetter still, clone that working image and return to that when things go bungMac or Linux is going backwards in this situationI run with those too occasionallyor the dog gets itbut a solid secure Windows rig can leave them both in the dust in a serious multi app shootoutand yes, how many gamers do any serious gaming on beach ball buddy Mac and Linux ? Video rendering demands aren't that much different.

author: kalel
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 24, 2018, 09:27:47 am
content: According to the rebooting even happening in safe mode, is it basic drivers that are the issue, is it some type of broken OS installation, or could there be some hardware issue? If this was fixed, please ignore.I also think that once you get used to a workflow (specific software, etc) it is easier not to switch unless you have to for some good reason. System stability should be achievable in any case, even with a very cheap build. Youtube video editing seems to be very demanding from reading some discussion threads (people buy very expensive machines to do it), I assume this is because of higher resolutions (4k) than before, and them using professional cameras that offer things such as large raw files. Maybe there are other factors, but I'm surprised that it sounds like it could be difficult to do decent video editing (except 3D animated stuff of course) on a modest, non-expensive machine. If so, YouTube could be an expensive hobby for some people (especially those who are not earning from it). Then there's BigClive style that also works pretty good.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 24, 2018, 09:34:57 am
content: Quote from: kalel on January 24, 2018, 09:27:47 amIt is pretty easy on almost any modern machine.If you shoot your Youtube videos in 4K 150+Mbps then well, you made that choice. Some Youtube content dictates this of course, but most (almost all in reality) Youtube content is perfectly fine with a 28Mbps 1080p30/60 source.I was on an editing forum years ago when I switched to HD content. People told mew its really wasn't possible to edit 1080p MP4 files directly on the hardware at the time, that was bleeding edge stuff. I used a cheap arse mid range core 2 duo PC and had no problems at all. Clearly they hadn't actually tried it.

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 24, 2018, 09:50:32 am
content: Quote from: dryjoints on January 24, 2018, 06:02:50 amIndeed, as the lightly tossed cheap bait is swallowed by your pride perfectly.Suggesting to reduce further deep embarrassment, stop deleting your own posts everywhere in this forum as most people here don't like it and as moderators too, cause it will make the whole discussion thread looks weird with lots of gaps between discussions.Just stand up straight, and face it like a real man.Or ... just abandon your current nick, do a clean and wash, re-do again with new nick and new personality if its unbearable.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 24, 2018, 10:56:17 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on January 24, 2018, 06:32:21 amWell I'm fairly familiar with what you're said and presented on your workflow and previous looks at alternatives, but this jumps out again and again:Quote from: EEVblog on January 24, 2018, 06:30:47 amIf you're not doing anything complex then the major NLEs all work the same, you drop the media into your pool, create clips on the timeline and trim them to size with blades and then compose with ripples/slips/rolls. The shortcuts are largely common for these operations and have very little difference in how they are used. There will be changes in setting up a default project for your desired settings the first time and yes there is some time spent to learn that but once its there you just jump straight in to a perfectly configured project each time you start.You walked into an Apple store and were shown a single example of a Mac running FC without any guidance and didn't like having to transcode (for obvious reasons) but to extend that to never wishing to look at alternative software is narrow minded. There are workflows editing on one package and exporting the project to render out on another platform (possibly going through parallel audio and colouring work, more editing etc which are not applicable to you) using a common format, some are even command line driven or distributed to reduce render time.Quote from: EEVblog on January 24, 2018, 06:30:47 amStick on windows, all the major NLEs support it except FC.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 24, 2018, 11:07:13 pm
content: Did my first major video with Vegas 15 and it was horribly slow!Jerky preview video, popup boxes taking forever. Never had this issue with V14Strange...

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 24, 2018, 11:10:44 pm
content: Quote from: Someone on January 24, 2018, 10:56:17 pmIn theory, yes, in practice, no.Take Premiere for example, everything raves about so I tried it for few videos. Because of the way it does modes or whatever, I had to do twice as many clicks to do that same basic task as in Vegas.I confirmed with Premiere users that's "just the way it works". Well screw that, I'm not going to add hundreds of annoying clicks to my workflow.QuoteAgain, bullshit, I've tried most major video editing packages out there.

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 24, 2018, 11:52:41 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on January 24, 2018, 06:30:47 amI tried to find an alternative to MM for my mother, and it was not possible (paid or open source, they were all similar). So I can completely agree here, that program is ridiculously easy to use and intuitive.Problem is it has issues with newer codecs not working.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 25, 2018, 12:04:31 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on January 24, 2018, 11:10:44 pmHaving personally used most of the NLE packages I don't see big differences, but you need to use keyboard shortcuts and not just the mouse UI.Quote from: EEVblog on January 24, 2018, 11:10:44 pmI was taking one example that was a dead end for you without any serious attempt to look at it rationally.

author: amspire
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 25, 2018, 12:55:20 am
content: If Dave has tried the other editors and finds Vegas is the best fit for his workflow, then Dave is correct - Vegas is the best editor for him. It is nothing to do with arrogance, defensiveness or anything else.Trying to argue that some other editor is better is like trying to argue that blue is a much better colour then red. It is a personal preference and different people have different preferences.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 25, 2018, 01:16:56 am
content: Quote from: amspire on January 25, 2018, 12:55:20 amPeople don't seem to accept that historic choices also play a large role. If another piece of software is slightly more efficient, but comes at the cost of massive changes in workflow or needing to retrain, it often doesn't pan out.Even if there is a large difference, it's very possible that you simply cannot afford to make the switch, as it would mean shutting or slowing down operations. That may of may not be feasible, but there are many cases in which even objectively suboptimal choices are actually most optimal when you look at the bigger picture. You can't isolate a process when many moving parts are involved.Of course, that all assumes there actually is a permanent benefit to making the switch. In many cases it's indeed a matter of preference, or circumstances are so noisy that better or worse can't be reliably established.

author: amspire
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 25, 2018, 01:41:09 am
content: Just as an example on video editor workflow, I was working for a few years with a small Aussie animation studio, and I ended up doing all the video editing.The whole time I was there, I never once touched a NLE editor. I did all the editing using a Google Docs spreadsheet which was used by the animators for managing the scenes which then generated a script file for Avisynth. I always got perfect editing results without actually editing a thing.If you want to see some examples, search Youtube for "Big Green Rabbit". We didn't do all the animations you will, but we did the majority. Archaeopteryx is a fun example.I have never tried to tell anyone that Avisynth is the best NLE editor. In our case, it wiped Premiere, Vegas and the rest off the floor in terms of efficiency. All I had to do was to run a *.bat file - job done!

author: dryjoints
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 25, 2018, 01:56:18 am
content: Quote from: amspire on January 25, 2018, 01:41:09 amYou'll forgive me for pointing out how niche it must be to edit and compose a story in a VISUAL medium, with documents and batch files; can't think why that's not taken off mainstream, it sounds FAR more intuitive than dragging VISUAL media around... LOLAll that "efficiency" may well be true, but negated by what sounds like a rather steep learning curve for a rather... obscure way of editing...

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 25, 2018, 02:10:37 am
content: Quote from: dryjoints on January 25, 2018, 01:56:18 amWith animation, you know by what's going to be where by definition. You animate the scenes to have an end result, rather than seeing what material you ended up having. It's therefore a matter of assembling the material generated.I never realised this form of editing existed, but in hindsight it's very obvious to do it this way. Why bother with clicking and dragging and having a resource intensive WYSIWYG interface that potentially introduces all sorts of errors from what's essentially an already well defined script?Obviously, efficiency is also important. Animations like these aren't cinematic high budget productions. You need to crank out affordable videos at a considerable pace. It no different than building a product down to a price.

author: amspire
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 25, 2018, 04:06:16 am
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on January 25, 2018, 02:10:37 amAbsolutely correct. By the time the scenes had to be edited together, all the editing decisions had been made. The soundtrack is not edited - by the time you animate, the soundtrack is set in stone. The animators had of course animated to sync with the soundtrack perfectly already. The Animation Director had decided when a scene starts and stops. Using a NLE editor was an enormous waste of time and a source for errors.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 25, 2018, 05:53:36 am
content: Quote from: Someone on January 25, 2018, 12:04:31 amI know. I was assured by experienced Premiere users that keyboard shortcuts didn't help here, and scripting wouldn't work. It was fundamental in the way Premiere did want I wanted it to do, it was simply more work than Vegas.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 25, 2018, 05:54:14 am
content: WTF is going on!Now I'm getting 1:37 for the 2min Test render

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 25, 2018, 05:57:22 am
content: Quote from: thm_w on January 24, 2018, 11:52:41 pmNCH VideoPad is a very nice cheap/free (Aussie!) video editor.I use it occasionally.Don't use all the time because of a few quirks and a bug in handling my source files (haven't rechecked that recently though)

author: amspire
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 25, 2018, 06:20:45 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on January 25, 2018, 05:54:14 amWhen I was trying it, CPU speeds would go up to 80% and then drop down to 50% for a period. Viewing the GPU activity with the GPU-Z utility was also very erratic. The Sony Codec on the GTX580 was very consistent in terms of CPU and GPU usage, so I suspect there is some very poorly optimised code in the new Magix codecs.I did see that for NVENC rendering, the Pascal Quadro's can do 9 streams of H.264 1080P high quality frames simultaneously or 21 streams of the Highest quantity of frames. For consumer GPU's, NVENC limits it to just 2 streams. Sounds like nVidia has crippled the non-Quadro Pascal based cards like the GTX 10X0 series.https://developer.nvidia.com/nvidia-video-codec-sdk

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 25, 2018, 07:29:07 am
content: Quote from: amspire on January 25, 2018, 06:20:45 amI know someone who I think has hacked this...

author: kalel
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 25, 2018, 07:43:03 am
content: If anyone knows, does AMD have similar limitations using their codec?

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 25, 2018, 09:24:00 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on January 25, 2018, 05:53:36 amYou keep referring out to some very specific action which you didn't like but wont expand on it, but its easy to find some aspect which works differently or less efficiently going between any given examples. We see this all the time in people here comparing some niggle they find in a specific brand of test equipment and they go on and on about it without looking at the bigger picture.This is a thread where you are asking for assistance in speeding up your outputs, most video editors worry about having enough speed to do realtime interactive editing/colouring and leave it at that because rendering is "solved" by the majors (pro end software) as it can be farmed out to multiple compute nodes if speed is needed. Last I remember you were doing an intermediate render and then further compression with handbrake to reduce upload time, hasn't your internet connection changed a few times recently? Time to reassess the value of further compression? Or look at better ways to do compression, while keeping your editing flow in Vegas.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 25, 2018, 09:55:47 am
content: Quote from: Someone on January 25, 2018, 09:24:00 amBecause I don't want to waste my time going through explaining it all again, and I forget exact details, it's on the forum somewhere.QuoteBut this was MY EXACT WORKFLOW editing an actual EEVblog video.QuoteNo, I asked for comment on the Ryzen processor.Now please drop it.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 25, 2018, 10:07:55 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on January 24, 2018, 06:30:47 amIDK, but some people, particularly, coming from the software world have this habbit. You ask a question, they tell you that you should throw away all your tools, all your work process, and switch to something completely different. Like you have a problem with a SQL database query, and they answer you that you should change to a completely different database engine, with different servers and everything. Like that is going to fix your issue. Or you want to fix a .bat file, and you are supposed to switch to Linux. Or you are looking for a x IC for your project with a PIC18, and suddenly you are supposed to switch to PSOC.Justthrow away everything that you are doing now, and switch to their beloved system.It is infuriating. It tells a story, that the person asking the question is a clueless moron, because he is not using their beloved system. While the story is, person giving advice has no idea how much a change costs. Time, money effort. Someone told me the other day, I should stop using Altium. I told him that I have a few thousand hours experience with it, so it would take me years to switch to another software.

author: borjam
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 25, 2018, 10:13:23 am
content: Quote from: NANDBlog on January 25, 2018, 10:07:55 amI am surprised because editing video without really complex stuff should be a no brainer nowadays. It was ten years ago as well.So, maybe there is one bad step in his workflow that is causing the headaches. The most obvious one is of course the format of the source video. It's much more efficient to batch transcode it to a format intended for edition like Apple's ProRes (pardon the Apple mention, I guess Adobe and otehrs have their own intermediate format) or, with enough disk bandwidth, to uncompressed video.Anyway, just trying to be helpful and of course not intending to infuriate anyone. And I am sure others share the same position. I will drop it.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 25, 2018, 10:21:23 am
content: Quote from: borjam on January 25, 2018, 10:13:23 amThe format of the input files makes zero difference to the editing workflow in the NLE.Unless you chose to transcode them first, then it's of course adding an extra step to the workflow.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 25, 2018, 10:52:07 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on January 25, 2018, 09:55:47 amI think you are confusing workflow with tools/methods. From what I understand from your previous explanations and videos your workflow is:1 shoot in sequence in camera (no external anything)2 copy from media to local drive3 drop the lot onto a timeline and edit4 export to compressed intermediate format5 handbrake to further compressed format for upload6 send to youtube7 mark up and annotate after upload2, 4, and 5 are all easy targets for changing the workflow that don't involve any change to your editing methods or tool. The proposed change of computer is again (same as last timehttps://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/i-tried-a-mac-for-video-editing/?all) only about steps 4/5 as the others are already limited in other ways.If you don't like some particular way another NLE edits thats fine, Vegas is what you're comfortable editing with and works best for you. But when trying to save time there are many other steps in the workflow that can be sped up (or even eliminated) by considering other NLEs to do those tasks.Whatever show stopping issue you had with Premier is of no particular interest to discuss, but you keep bringing it up as the blockage to consider the tool when its sounding like some minor UI difference in how to do a very specific action. A user coming from the other direction could likely find similar scale problems in trying to do their work exactly the same method they are used to in tool X with Vegas instead. Some times the same result can be achieved in many different ways and trying to force one way of working onto a tool which has other better ways of doing the same thing is silly, we see it again here with the various test equipment threads that devolve into camps of "the one true way to do it". You put it out there that you've "tried them all" when you clearly haven't made serious efforts to learn how to best use other tools available as in the previous thread linked above. And tools change over the years, what might have been impossible to work around may no longer exist as a problem.

author: hayatepilot
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 25, 2018, 11:01:06 am
content: The way I see it, the core problem seems to be that the motherboard (drivers...) are not properly supported on WIN10.This causes the problems that dave is experiencing like the boot issues, crashes and inconsistent performance of the PC.Despite very powerful hardware the software can't leverage it.Switching to different, newer hardware that is supportet for WIN10 could improve the reliability and consitency of your workflow.If this is a Threadripper or Intel i9 probably doesn't really matter all that much.Maybe it's worth testing on a spare PC if VEGA is slow/buggy there too before investing in new powerful hardware.

author: borjam
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 25, 2018, 11:04:09 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on January 25, 2018, 10:21:23 amModern editors can edit H.264, true. Final Cut, for example (sorry but it's the NLE I have used) works on the H.264files while it transcodes then in background. Once transcoded to ProRes it switches to working with ProRes, which ismuch more efficient. You only notice that, suddenly, everything is much more agile and your CPU usage can go down.Remember that delivery codecs such as H.264 are not a stream of full frames, but a stream of some complete frames called key framesand differences between them. While locating a certain frame in an edition capable codec is trivial, it's an expensive operation. But thereis yet another reason to transcode to an edition programbeforeediting. You are not sure how many encoding/decoding tasksare being performed on your clips if you make changes such as adjusting color, adding fades and whatnot. Remember that video compressionis lossy.If you batch convert to an edition or uncompressed format you have a much better control on the quality of the final product. The videoeditor program, whichever you use, will always achieve the top possible performance for your hardware. Moreover, the edited master video inintermediate format will be the equivalent of a high quality photographic negative. What if next year you need to remaster your current H.264files to a different codec like H.265? (Just using the names as examples)I only edit video rarely but I have edited a lot of audio, done live recordings and even mixed/mastered some releases. In the audio world yourecord uncompressed audio at the best possible quality and encoding to AAC or MP3 is the very last step. Editing video in a delivery codec,despite being possible, is the equivalent to mixing and mastering audio in MP3.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 25, 2018, 11:27:10 am
content: Quote from: borjam on January 25, 2018, 11:04:09 amThere are people using a full RAW workflow (not what Dave calls raw but RAW bayer data from the image sensors) who do store lossless information all the way to compression for delivery but its usually too costly for small productions. Dave has found that he gets acceptable quality for his material with rather modest data rates in the camera so the source material is already heavily compressed and a compressed intermediate isn't such a problem other than the wasted time. But you'll get best quality if you go through as few lossy stages along the way as possible which is why rendering direct from the source material (no matter the codec or bitrate) is always best.Quote from: borjam on January 25, 2018, 11:04:09 amFCP (X) can actually use the MTS sources directly without transcoding:https://discussions.apple.com/thread/3154831As can the other majors. There are several choices for the internal project/cache/editing format in FC and they can greatly affect the CPU use but most modern video editing machines are fast enough that decoding several 1080p streams during editing is no longer a substantial strain on the system and you can disable caches if you know the load wont be high.

author: borjam
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 25, 2018, 11:32:39 am
content: Quote from: Someone on January 25, 2018, 11:27:10 amRAW data from the sensors would be a huge overkill. But a format withindependentframes is a must. Clearly something is wrong if Dave is having performance problems. There are compressed edition formats as well, it's just that the compression isn't as aggressive as the oneemployed on delivery codecs. And, again, frames are independent

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 25, 2018, 12:33:53 pm
content: Quote from: borjam on January 25, 2018, 11:32:39 amIt used to be but isn't anymore, decode is fast enough that you can scrub and the computer fills in the frames quick enough even if it needs to decode and then discard the intermediate frames which are never shown.

author: borjam
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 25, 2018, 12:45:06 pm
content: Quote from: Someone on January 25, 2018, 12:33:53 pmIt used to be but isn't anymore, decode is fast enough that you can scrub and the computer fills in the frames quick enough even if it needs to decode and then discard the intermediate frames which are never shown.Except when it doesn't. Maybe something is wrong with Dave's setup. I/O bandwidth?Anyway, as in any other fields, compromise is sometimes a bad idea. A single compromise probably won't do much damage, but the effect of several different compromises or poor decissions don't usually add up, but multiply.All of this is pure speculation on my part of course. Only one thing is certain. "Our" Dave has some really annoying video edition problem.

author: Naguissa
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 25, 2018, 12:53:07 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on January 23, 2018, 10:46:15 amSame happened (and maybe happens) to my child's Turion. Maybe Spectre/Meltdown patches, as my case?Enviado desde mi Jolla mediante Tapatalk

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 25, 2018, 01:19:49 pm
content: Quote from: NANDBlog on January 25, 2018, 10:07:55 amThis is a rather extreme way of putting it. Sometimes when a tool doesn't get you where you need to be it is better to switch to a tool which works than keep on making do and wasting your time. In many cases it won't be easy to switch so there have to be clear advantages.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 25, 2018, 01:20:40 pm
content: Quote from: borjam on January 25, 2018, 11:04:09 amOn every editor I've used, the answer is zero.The NLE editor does not alter the source files, it simply stores what you want done to them. Only when you play it or render it does it actually apply the changes and create the resultant file.For those interested, I shoot in AVCHD and edit directly on those files.QuoteEasy, you just re-render in H.265 from the original source files you worked from.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 25, 2018, 01:24:26 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on January 25, 2018, 01:20:40 pmDo you keep everything?

author: amspire
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 25, 2018, 01:24:52 pm
content: I have found out some info on the nVidia video encoding. The NVENC encoders in the later nVidia cards are hardware encoding engines, and they are beasts. The GTX1060 uses the GP106 chip - it has 1 of these engines. The GTX1070, 1080 and 1080i uses the GP104 chip and it has 2 NVENC engines. If you get a Titan with the GP100 chip - you get 3!When I say they are beasts, on the Pascal cards, they can render H.264 or H.265 to 8K. How fast are they? I believe one NVENC engine can render 1080P H.264 at the high quality setting at about 350 frames/sec.The problem is keeping these beasts fed. So with the Quadro chips, you can run 9 video streams to try and keep two of these engines busy.Now nVidia seems to be really strict about the rendering license with NVENC and so for non-quadro cards, you can only run 2 streams. When I say they are really strict, NVENC drivers are only available using the closed source nVidia software and will never be open source. And get this - no matter how many GTX1080's you have, you only get 2 streams. If you have one Quadro that can manage 9 streams and 3 GTX1080 cards, you get 9+2=11 streams!Ok - so how fast are the consumer cards anyway?I downloaded the open source MediaCoder package as it has NVENC in it and rendered Dave's 2 minute video. On my slow Phenom II pc with the GTX1080 graphics, it was just under 1 minute for both H264 and H265 encoding with the CPU running at 100%. MediaCoder is far more efficient then the Magix codecs and here are the render times I believe you can get on a faster PC with a 1080 card:H.264: 20 to 25 seconds for the 2 minute videoH.265: 30 seconds for the 2 minute videoBy the way, I also tried CUDA rendering from MediaCoder and it is much more fragile and slower. I never actually finished a render. NVENC kills it for both speed and robustness.Now on my PC, the Vegas 15 rendering is a sadder story. With the slow processor, it takes me 3 minutes to render Dave's video with the Magix NVENC codecs. Dave on his dual Xeons can get down towards 1 minute.Definitely, the Magix encoders like to take their time. So are we stuck with that?No, you can run Vegas with other encoders.With Avisynth, you can render out of Vegas to a file that is actually a Avisynth stream. Nothing actually touches the hard drive at all. The output of the stream can go to the MeGUI transcoder or MediaCoder and you can directly call the NVENC encoders from there. The format you pick to render out of Vegas is usually the Video for Windows DV format or YUV format that generates about 10G per minute of video, but that 10G is just streamed through to the NVENC encoder.I cannot tell you how fast Vegas is at outputting the YUV format as I haven't set up an Avisynth stream, and I have a 5 year old WD Blue as the drive. Just writing the 22G YUV AVI file to the drive takes about 6 minutes.If this method did work well, you can probably use Vegas 14 instead of Vegas 15 if you like 14 better. Both have the Video for Windows codecs.Quote from: EEVblog on January 25, 2018, 07:29:07 amIt could work, but nVidia are really keen to protect their licensing. I can't help feeling that the closed source NVENC software with do a thorough job determining the type of card and probably will not be fooled by a hacked card.The 2 stream restriction is in the nVida NVENC software on the PC and not in the card. It does look like the non-Quadro card has everything it needs to run the same number of streams as the Quadro. If the hack works, then

author: borjam
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 25, 2018, 01:25:04 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on January 25, 2018, 01:20:40 pmOf course it doesn't alter the source files. I'm talking about intermediate changes.QuoteEasy, you just re-render in H.265 from the original source files you worked from.Isn't it easier to have a "negative" master copy, already edited, and just encode it into the final delivery format withouteven launching the editor? If one of my victims asks for a MP3 version of a track I've mixed I don't need to launchthe multi track editor. I just get the final mix and encode it.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 25, 2018, 01:32:03 pm
content: Quote from: borjam on January 25, 2018, 01:25:04 pmThere are zero intermediate changes if you render direct from the NLE.QuoteSure, if you want to store a massive lossless rendered copy for that purpose down the track then knock yourself out.QuoteVideo is kinda bigger in file size than audio.IIRC a 2TB hard drive will only hold a handful of lossless rendered original videos of the length I typically do. And I have over 1200 videos.I keep all the original camera files, and that already takes up enough room.I actually used to keep high bit rate original "master" renders back when I had to heavily compress with handbrake to get the file sizes down so they wouldn't take all day to upload.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 25, 2018, 01:37:37 pm
content: Quote from: amspire on January 25, 2018, 01:24:52 pmI've experimented with that many times but have always had issues.You can also do this with x264 (that Handbrake uses) for a constant quality output file just like handbrake, but I've had issues with this too.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 25, 2018, 01:41:52 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on January 25, 2018, 01:24:26 pmYes, I have original camera files from the very first episodes.A few have been lost, but I would have over 1200 videos worth of original files.

author: dryjoints
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 25, 2018, 07:16:57 pm
content: Dave, if you'd diverted all the energy which you've put into this thread, intobuying a VERY POWERFUL iMac (Apple have a returns policy - no quibble), sitting down and TRYING the fully working trial version of Final Cut Pro X, you'd be making FAR more headway than here, where you're just demonstrating what an utterly pedantic perfectionist luddite you seem to be. All this waffle time could be spent TRYING to be open minded - I don't think you want anyone's "help", you just want to keep chasing your tail and then wondering why things don't work out.When you take your blinkers off and TRY something which the majority of editors use (and I do not JUST mean FCPX), then you might actually move forward instead of jogging on the spot getting nowhere. How do you KNOW there is no better way when you're clearly unwilling to sit down, turn OFF the internet and the "opinions" of your precious band of followers, and TRY FOR YOURSELF and form your OWN opinions, after giving it a week or two of HARD investigation? You know as well as I do that you are a ranter and a very impatient person, quick to jump to conclusions and deride anything that doesn't work EXACTLY as you expected... well maybe it's time to have a good long talk to yourself, quit complaining that "It's not like Vegas does it, blah blah..." and TRY?I hope it works out for you, and that we don't come back in 2 years time to see a re-hash of the same kind of thread (this is clearly an ongoing issue, you've been yammering away about this for years... sheesh... sort yourself out, you're A PROFESSIONAL!)

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 25, 2018, 08:15:01 pm
content: Quote from: dryjoints on January 25, 2018, 07:16:57 pmConsidering it's been ages since Apple has updated the Mac Pro, it isn't really a recommended option for professionals. Many pros have abandoned Apple the past years, as its obvious Apple is shifting ever more towards the consumer and away from professional use. The 5K iMac you mention is basically a regular mainstream i7 system with a good screen. That's actually nice, but nothing really pro oriented. The thermal side of things is obviously not optimally suited for calculation intensive workloads. That honestly makes your push for open-mindedness, or "you should do exactly as I say" as some would call it, a bit puzzling. Are there any tangible benefits other than just "it's better" and "act like a pro" that give you reason to push the matter so relentlessly?The link posted below is a pretty good reflection of the sentiments of quite a few people who earn their keep with video.https://www.joelwsmith.com/blog/my-switch-from-mac-to-pc-for-video-editing

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 25, 2018, 08:28:56 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on January 25, 2018, 08:15:01 pmJust drop $6,300 AUD and all your problems will be solvedhttps://www.apple.com/ca/shop/buy-mac/imac-proIs this the CPU, it doesn't quite match Apples specs (3.2GHz 8-core Intel Xeon W processor, Turbo Boost up to 4.2GHz):https://www.cpubenchmark.net/cpu.php?cpu=Intel+Xeon+Gold+6134+%40+3.20GHz&id=3008Threadripper 1950X is still significantly faster:https://www.cpubenchmark.net/cpu.php?cpu=AMD+Ryzen+Threadripper+1950X&id=3058

author: dryjoints
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 25, 2018, 08:50:06 pm
content: Quote from: thm_w on January 25, 2018, 08:28:56 pmIt's the fuel you put in the engine, not just the engine.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 25, 2018, 10:06:05 pm
content: Quote from: dryjoints on January 25, 2018, 07:16:57 pmYou've had your say, now go away and don't post in this thread again.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 25, 2018, 10:09:13 pm
content: Quote from: thm_w on January 25, 2018, 08:28:56 pmThats only the base 8 core processor configuration for the iMac pro, it has options for larger chips up to 18 cores which will have more compute performance than the top end Threadripper:https://browser.geekbench.com/processor-benchmarksBut they cost more and have less memory bandwidth which might impact some workloads. Also Apple only offering an all in one platform for the pro market is controversial as many people are still preferring their own choice of monitors so its a very divisive design from the start.But having a known configuration is worth a lot when you want reliability/dependability which has been the theme of this thread and the previous one, just as Apple offer a limited range of configurations which allows comprehensive testing and qualification of compatibility the major PC vendors do the same with their qualified workstation lines Dell Precision, HP Z, and some smaller specialty assemblers who provide ongoing support:http://www.pugetsystems.comhttp://www.boxx.comThey'll deliver a system already tested and tuned for your particular application and then support it, when time is money it can be worth spending the extra upfront on a system.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 25, 2018, 10:21:50 pm
content: Quote from: Someone on January 25, 2018, 10:09:13 pm18 core Xeon in apple has only 2.3 GHz base frequency, no it does not beat threadripper. And did you check those benchmark results before posting that link?BTWhttps://www.realworldtech.com/forum/?threadid=136526&curpostid=136666

author: dryjoints
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 25, 2018, 10:45:48 pm
content: Apple are releasing a MODULAR Mac pro, later this year, which was announced in 2017 as an ongoing project. Some of us are knee-deep in Apple news and immersed in listening to 3-4hr Apple-centric podcasts, WEEKLY, hosted by Leo Laporte, Alex Lyndsay (Alex did sfx for Star Wars, works on EXTREMELY high end editing and capture solutions) - if you want someone who ACTUALLY, SERIOUSLY knows the inside out and upside down, back and front of film and media production, you could do worse than asking him or watching their podcasts:https://twit.tv/people/alex-lindsay

author: Electro Detective
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 25, 2018, 10:59:57 pm
content: How many multiple beach balls do these multicore Intel powered Xeonified Macs give you all at once, when attempting to render files?18... or 36 ?

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 25, 2018, 11:09:03 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on January 25, 2018, 10:21:50 pmBase frequency is a largely symbolic number like TDP, many processors will run on "boost" 24/7 without throttling back to the base frequency. And I certainly did read the link posed it conspicuously doesnt include any data from the 2190/2195 yet on multicore compute the W-2150B comes out right around the same as the 1950X:https://www.cpubenchmark.net/cpu.php?cpu=Intel+Xeon+W-2150B+%40+3.00GHz&id=3162https://www.cpubenchmark.net/cpu.php?cpu=AMDIf you look at the i9 equivalents there is a clear lead from Intel at the top end:http://cpu.userbenchmark.com/Compare/Intel-Core-i9-7980XE-vs-AMD-Ryzen-TR-1950X/m352013vs3932But it comes back to specific workloads and value for money where its anyones game depending on what metrics you pick:https://www.anandtech.com/show/11891/best-cpus-for-workstations-2017Distributed rendering on many nodes has been more cost effective for a long time, trying to build peak performance in a single machine is chasing diminishing returns and a poor investment for many tasks.

author: borjam
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 26, 2018, 07:10:31 am
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on January 25, 2018, 08:15:01 pmI own a 2010 Mac Pro (6 cores at 3.33 GHz) with an AMD 7950 graphics card and its performance is awesome. I haven't tried editing 4K video, but for 1080p it's fantastic even with color corrections, etc. The Apple advantage in this case is, for example, largely seamless OpenCL (unlike Windows, where there seems to be a lot of trial and error to get a GPU to really work for anything but games). As for professional usage, Final Cut usage has been growing as far as I know.Regarding the Mac Pro updates, the cylinder Mac Pro didn't have a too dramatic advantage in CPU performance, but that's just because CPU performance is hitting a ceiling lately. Its main advantage is less power consumption.Dave, if you are curious let me download a file from somewhere and I can try encoding it with Compressor (Apple's transcoder) and Handbrake and get back to you with the results (time spent, etc).I don't have Vegas or Premiere however, so I can't import a project.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 26, 2018, 07:51:30 am
content: Quote from: borjam on January 26, 2018, 07:10:31 amThanks but I have no interest at all in switching to Mac.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 26, 2018, 08:30:47 am
content: Quote from: Someone on January 25, 2018, 10:09:13 pmYou're exactly right. When you're talking about that kind of money, you get into proper workstation territory. This means getting very well tested workstations, possibly tailor-made for your specific application and not unimportantly, built as robust work horses with little show and all go. The support typically is also a bit better than that of your regular consumer grade stuff.If you configure a workstation, you can get into some fairly schmick hardware. Dual Xeon processors, oodles of RAM, you name it.http://store.hp.com/us/en/ConfigureView?catalogId=10051&langId=-1&storeId=10151&urlLangId=&catEntryId=3074457345618619819&quantity=1

author: Electro Detective
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 26, 2018, 09:07:22 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on January 26, 2018, 07:51:30 amFWIW: item below performs the same, and cheaper by the dozen

author: kalel
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 26, 2018, 09:44:45 am
content: This has been a long thread already, going in various directions, and sorry not to follow/remember it all, but I would like to ask which problems remain as of right now? I saw your posts about fixing some bios settings and some about decent rendering speed with the nVidia card.QuoteI assume this is up to the software as well. Although nVidia does like to not always provide the latest OpenCL support (as they have CUDA). I heard there were some additional issues in Linux with OpenCL/nVidia. This was all more than a year ago, things might have changed. With free video editing tools on Windows, I haven't found many that use the GPU codecs, but obviously the major ones should.

author: GeorgeOfTheJungle
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 26, 2018, 09:50:06 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on January 26, 2018, 07:51:30 amOrdinary people... meh!--J. Ive

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 26, 2018, 09:53:54 am
content: Quote from: GeorgeOfTheJungle on January 26, 2018, 09:50:06 amThink different!

author: SparkyFX
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 26, 2018, 10:04:22 pm
content: Given the encoders used are as good as they can be and the software does the proper CPU-utilisation there is not much that can be done without a reference value to compare to. Either a problem is assumed or the toolchain needs optimisation (can´t help with the latter).Upon upgrading my AMD system over the holidays (new CPU and RAM, not a Ryzen Threadripper) i came across a few less obious issues, mabye they provide food for thought in problemsolvingwrong RAM JEDEC profile loaded by BIOS from cold boot to warm boot (disabling some ACPI features and the boot guard feature which rewrites BIOS settings solved that)power saving feature did noticeably throttle the CPU and therefore video game frame rate in a disharmonic way - disabledHT Link/NB not as fast as possible - changedMost could be found using CPUID Cpu-Z.Apart from that and if overclocking is not an option, another way of looking at it would be to say that rendering never can be live during editing and never will take zero time, so it will always be needed at the end of editing - being it one or two minutes per minute video does not make that big of a difference. Only way around that would be some lazy background rendering in the editing software right after making changes. Would be a change in the workflow and only applicable to certain types of changes, afaik no one does it currently.

author: Electro Detective
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 26, 2018, 10:51:47 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on January 26, 2018, 09:53:54 am"Ok class, once the beach balls subside,and Safari and iTunes finish updating again,we can continue our research on the history, development and future of computing..."---------------------"Ummm, excuse me Sir, but our Macs are still downloading the latest operating system update beta release of "Stoned Sierra"which apparently addresses the ongoing SBBOD issues during rendering of our video projects.Estimated Time: 6 days 6 hours 6 minutes

author: Electro Detective
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 26, 2018, 11:35:37 pm
content: BS, BSOD, and SBBOD humor aside for a minuteif this guy on Youtube got a huge performance boost with his AMD Ryzen and Vegas 15, I reckon the Xeon system with the right tweak would do ok tooVegas Pro 15 MASSIVE Performance Boost on AMD Ryzen vs Vegas Pro 14"Hey guys, in this video I share some results I obtained by running a few rendering tests in Vegas Pro 14 and Vegas pro 15.The results will please a lot of you, rendering speed has been improved tremendously."youtube.com/watch?v=RO7MMB38l2s(be sure to SKIP AD > if the Wix wankers pollute the beginning of the video)

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 26, 2018, 11:42:05 pm
content: Quote from: Electro Detective on January 26, 2018, 11:35:37 pmThat's not necessarily true. Dual CPU systems sometimes don't scale well, as do systems with a lot of cores. Sometimes adding processors or cores can actually hurt performance. It all depends on how the software was written.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 26, 2018, 11:43:18 pm
content: To fix the WIndows upgrade problem, I think I might just slip my boot drive into a another machine, let it update (hopefully), and then switch it back

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 26, 2018, 11:46:54 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on January 26, 2018, 11:43:18 pmIt needs to be a fairly similar machine to do that. If it works in the first place, you don't want all sorts of drivers being installed automatically because the hardware is present in that system, but not in yours. Cluttering Windows with system files isn't the best of starts.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 26, 2018, 11:47:32 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on January 26, 2018, 11:42:05 pmEven with one Xeon, I've still got 10 physical cores

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 26, 2018, 11:48:04 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on January 26, 2018, 11:46:54 pmBetter than what I have now.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 26, 2018, 11:56:15 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on January 26, 2018, 11:48:04 pmWhat is the current problem and on what machine or configuration? I've scanned back, but have to admit I've lost the thread.

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 27, 2018, 12:34:00 am
content: Quote from: amspire on January 25, 2018, 06:20:45 amHigh quality of course being relative for hardware encoding, if you can spare a few minutes x264 gives you more bang for your MB.

author: Electro Detective
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 27, 2018, 12:39:52 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on January 26, 2018, 11:43:18 pmIt should be a winner if Windows 10 doesn't rebel and blow its Activation during the alternating PC drive swap, you may have to reactivate again, maybe not.If using a spinning drive and not an SSD, I would suggest a Scandisk and full defrag after the last update restart,many sludge performance issues and mystery quirks can be sorted with that,without wasting time and money on third party optimizationpraywareEDIT:I would clone the drive to another drive and put the clone in the other machine to complete/resolve the winupdate merry go round fiascoIf anything goes bung, you're safely back to first base with the original drive, and can keep cloning to try stuff out without too much fear

author: mariush
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 27, 2018, 01:01:54 am
content: Here's a thought...Buy a big SSD or set up a RAID 0 using a couple of hard drives.Disable preview and render using uncompressed YV12 (Sony YUV codec 4:2:0 orHelix YUV codecs) ... it takes 12 bit per pixel so for 1080p 50 fps you're looking at 1920x1080x50x 1.5 bytes per pixel = 155520000 bytes or 151875 KB or 149 MB/s or 9 GB per minute.Speed would probably be limited by the read and write speed of the drive.Then depending on what video card you have, use NVENC or AMF (AMD Advanced Media Framework) to create a high bitrate Youtube version of the clip (let's say 40-60 mbps) , even a cheap GTX 1050 / Radeon RX 550 can do 1080p hardware encoding at around 100-150 fps as long as the hard drives can keep upFor hardware encoding using AMF (AMD RX series and up) , VCEEnc works great:https://onedrive.live.com/?id=6BDD4375AC8933C6%21516&cid=6BDD4375AC8933C6Then use software x264 over night to create an archival 1080p version let's say 20-25mbps vbr (with highest quality settings, variable bitrate etc) and a "720p" and/or 960x540 versions for download (instead of using the ones from Youtube)

author: Electro Detective
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 27, 2018, 01:36:10 am
content: He's better off time and sanity wise trying a CLONED drive swap first on another PC, taking notes on any special BIOS settings,and reset Bios to default or optimum on the test PC to accept the cloned drive without drama on first boot,so hopefully a few drivers will kick in and finish the stubborn updaterather than troubleshooting some obscure code and or hardware hiccup that may be 'just one of those things' that can't be fixed,or breaks other stuff if it canKISS

author: amspire
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 27, 2018, 02:19:40 am
content: Quote from: Marco on January 27, 2018, 12:34:00 amI hadn't realised you could use third party codecs in Vegas, but you can - usingVideo for Windows, pick any option, and then change the Video Format tox265vfwor whatever you have loaded. I did a quick test in Vegas 14 and the open source x264 codecs seem a little slower using the CPU rendering then say the Sony AVC codec.If there is a stand-alone Windows codec that can use NVENC, that would be great. So far, I have only seen NVENC codecs embedded in packages.

author: Electro Detective
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 27, 2018, 04:54:10 am
content: It may be a background process clash, and one of them either doesn't want to play ball or doesn't start up/shut down properly,or some program has replaced a driver or file or whatever,or an anti-malware or security thing has jacked or quarantined a file or driver thingiePerhaps some trial betrayware or software install or uninstall went south a while back and everything has been half snafu till nowAn MS file in the update process may be an MS security threat...etc etc etc or it may be a combination of the above at random causing the update failEither way, the update loop isn't going away on its own, so it's time to get medieval and either remove and add hardware (PITA)or lower the risk of paper cuts, lost screws, badly reseated cards, ram, processors and lab rageby simply cloning the drive and trying it elsewhere

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 27, 2018, 05:00:35 am
content: Putting the drive into another machine worked! (i5 dumpster PC)When the drive was put back into the dual Xeon it did the "Getting devices Ready" thing but froze at 70% on that.A hard power down and it's now booted and running the latest version of Win 10

author: Electro Detective
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 27, 2018, 05:06:58 am
content: See if the Xeon will now do MS Update with no drama, and if there is, just do the drive swap thing againOnce that's all sorted and the machine is purring properly, consider a refresh install of the latest version Vegas,and see if the render biz has improvedLocale: United StatesTime Zone: AUS Eastern Daylight Time

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 27, 2018, 05:23:32 am
content: Quote from: Electro Detective on January 27, 2018, 05:06:58 amStill 1:35, no idea why. But considering Vegas 14 was like 4-5 times that, I'm happy.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 27, 2018, 05:39:04 am
content: It still does the lock up on first boot thing, same as before.But now at least Win 10 is updated.It did say it failed to install some update just now, but which one(s).These are what they were:UPDATE: Seems like all of them failed as it's trying to do them again.

author: Electro Detective
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 27, 2018, 07:46:25 am
content: Run a Scandisk on the drive and try to update again in the Xeonand or toss it back to the i5 and let it do more of the updating dirty work, and run a Scandisk on that too.Sooner or later whatever/wherever the issue is, 'should' get sorted out, and all available updates completed.Then disable all that stuff, till you are sure you need it, unlikely after this fill up .Don't be shy about restarts either, they can help a LOT !

author: mariush
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 27, 2018, 01:46:05 pm
content: Or you could just fuck it and go back to Windows 7, which will work just fine.It's not like that old machine needs Windows 10 to run, and all the software will run on Windows 7 as well.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 27, 2018, 02:15:42 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on January 27, 2018, 05:00:35 amI'm honestly a bit surprised that worked without much trouble, but I guess I learnt something today.

author: GameProgrammer79
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 27, 2018, 10:01:45 pm
content: Xeons you use are meant to run server workloads (where reliability is more important) not really suitable for video rendering which is a compute oriented workload. Server machines are designed for reliability not speed. It is like MARATHON vs 100m SPRINT. It is no wonder your renders must be a MARATHON race. I'd suggest you can wait for Ryzen refresh (Ryzen+) getting released some time in april this year. Or otherwise you can invest in Threadripper (expensive but worth if you want to get rid of all the hardware bulk)Ideally to keep it compact, I'd rather go for a small MATX Threadripper setup ()All SSD/m2 storage for desktop and large NAS for archival, uploading to youtube and storage of clips.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 27, 2018, 10:11:22 pm
content: Quote from: GameProgrammer79 on January 27, 2018, 10:01:45 pmA Xeon isn't very different from a Core i5 or i7. In many cases it's literally the same silicon. The only difference is that they're binned differently. Xeons are generally chips that run the coolest or with the lowest voltage in the wafer. In practical terms, they should be the most stable. They are often indeed clocked slower too, but that's often a function of the amount of cores. You can't have that many cores going at full blast without creating huge thermal issues.Of course, there is the matter of single threaded speed versus many cores. In that regard you are correct. However, a video workload is one that should scale excellently with more cores. It's not the kind of computation that's very dependent on previous results. Properly written video renderers shouldn't benefit from faster core speeds on less cores, but should simply consume all the horsepower that's thrown at them in whatever form that comes.

author: GameProgrammer79
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 27, 2018, 10:38:55 pm
content: for matching per-core performance of commodity desktop cpus (Ex: Intel 8700K) one would need to invest in serious Xenon CPU which costs in the $5 to $8K range (just the CPU alone). In that price one can easily purchase 8 x of 1950x best Threadripper CPUs.For a casual video rendering (Not 24x7 rendering thats needed for a movie production house) like Daves requirement Xeons are simply not suitable from price performance comparison. What is needed - a reasonably priced machine which simply renders fast enough and uploads to youtube.

author: Howardlong
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 27, 2018, 11:55:02 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on January 27, 2018, 05:00:35 amFWIW I found I massively improved the generla reliability and boot speed of my dual Xeon by switching to UEFI, it looks like you’re running legacy BIOS. You can do this in place, it takes about 15 minutes or so, but make sure you have a system drive image backup and copy of your BIOS settings before you do!

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2018, 12:13:36 am
content: Quote from: GameProgrammer79 on January 27, 2018, 10:38:55 pmWhy not? Video rendering generally does not depend on clock speed, but on raw horsepower. If that's many slower cores, so be it. Price/performance is also moot if you already have the chips.If it were a gaming PC you might have an argument, but video rendering is one of the handful of occasions where you should be able to throw all your cores at your problem.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2018, 12:18:01 am
content: Quote from: GameProgrammer79 on January 27, 2018, 10:38:55 pmSome loads - like say, video encoding, if you're not using GPU acceleration, thread.Quote... at $840 a pop before adding 8 motherboards, 8 sets of RAM, 8 power supplies, 8 SSDs, 8 cases, and 8 heatsinks.. you can't buy 8 1950Xs for the price of one '5k to 8k' Xeon (one n, not two).Oh, by the way - a Xeon with similar single-thread performance to an 8700K is priced.. similarly to an 8700K.This is your regularly scheduled reality check.All that said - if you're going to do GPU acceleration I really don't see any point persisting with a giant dual Xeon machine..

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 28, 2018, 12:39:20 am
content: Quote from: Monkeh on January 28, 2018, 12:18:01 amIt doesn't cost me anything to keep using what I'm using.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2018, 12:42:35 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on January 28, 2018, 12:39:20 amWell...There's time and frustration of Windows 10 not working properly, for whatever reason. There's power cost, which will be quite measurably higher even if it is kept relatively idle.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 28, 2018, 12:59:36 am
content: Quote from: Howardlong on January 27, 2018, 11:55:02 pmThanks, I thought you had to re-install to change that.Just converted to UEFI and it worked fine, seems to be booting ok now.So maybe all problems fixed now, we'll see...

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 28, 2018, 01:11:37 am
content: I just ran GPU-Z during NVENC and it's showing only a 25% GPU load which cycles down the 5% or so periodically.I think the reason for that is the NVENC is actuallynotpart of the GPU itself, it's en entirely different part of the silicon and it's own core. NVENC using the NVENC encoding hardware and not the CUDA cores.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2018, 01:13:54 am
content: Yes, the encoding is at least partially dedicated hardware - the idea being to be able to encode and decode videos simultaneously with GPU load with little to no impact on performance. They've made a few chips which simply don't have it.

author: amspire
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2018, 01:22:38 am
content: Quote from: Marco on January 27, 2018, 12:34:00 amDid a few more tests with the x264vfw codec in Vegas and it does seem to produce good results at a much lower bitrate then the Sony and Mainconcepts codecs. Also the lower the bitrate, the faster the x264 codec encodes the video. This is using CPU rendering.Now in theory, the x264vfw codec should be able to also do NVENC encoding since it uses the libav library from ffmpeg that is compilable with cuda and NVENC support. However, I gather the nVida licensing doesn't allow for NVENC to be freely distributed in open source software like the x264vfw project. You would have to download the nVidia NVENC SDK and compile x264vfw yourself I guess with the libav CUDA and NVENC compile flags enabled.If anybody wants to try x264 in Vegas, I have attached a screen shot of the settings in Vegas 14. The 4000 kbits/s bitrate was just an experiment with low bitrates. It gives a 83MByte file for the two minutes 1080P 50P render.The different VFW FourCC settings do nothing but change a FourCC string in the AVI. The renders are absolutely identical.https://sourceforge.net/projects/x264vfw/

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2018, 01:52:05 am
content: And on the subject of using CPU rendering - my 2010 era Xeons are capable of pushing over 100fps with x264. As above it's setting dependent - ultrafast preset and a bitrate of 18Mbps racks up 94fps for the sample clip.I don't recall which Xeons you're using, but surely they can whip my X5650s handily.None of this tested using Vegas and VFW, and with that no access to comparable settings - sorry, don't run Windows on that. If you or someone else can describe the settings I can perform a better comparison.E: Oops, hangon, 720p preset. Two moments.E2: Right, now it's not wasting cycles scaling: Try 135fps at 20Mbps.

author: amspire
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2018, 02:01:24 am
content: Quote from: Monkeh on January 28, 2018, 01:52:05 amYou are right. I just set it to ultrafast and 18MB/s in Vegas 14 and it took 3:30 minutes on a slow PhenomII system. Resulting render is 294MBytes. The Phenom is 6 core, but it is slower than a modern i3 processor. I think a dual Xeon system would be well over 4 times faster - that is sub 1 minute without a GPU!.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2018, 02:02:45 am
content: Quote from: amspire on January 28, 2018, 02:01:24 amEr, yes, I was wasting some cycles. Try 40 seconds on a 2010 machine.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 28, 2018, 02:05:07 am
content: I tried x264 with CRF19 (my usual Hnadbrake setting) and it's well over 3 minutes, didn't even wait for it to finish.Slightly faster with ABR 4000 setting, but still slower than even CPU based MainConcept.

author: amspire
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2018, 02:07:11 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on January 28, 2018, 02:05:07 amI am running x264 straight from Vegas. I haven't tried Handbrake.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2018, 02:08:46 am
content: X5650s, Handbrake, x264 CRF 19, running.. Ah. Crap. it's already done. 115fps, 47 seconds.280MiB output - 29.4Mbps + audio. CRF 19 seems excessive (not aided by ultrafast preset).Which CPU(s) are you running?

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 28, 2018, 02:09:30 am
content: Quote from: amspire on January 28, 2018, 02:01:24 amUltrafast with 19 CRF is going to take well over 3 minutes for me.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 28, 2018, 02:13:45 am
content: Quote from: Monkeh on January 28, 2018, 02:08:46 amFYI, using my Handbrake script to transcode the 180MB 2min test NVENC render MP4 file at 50fps and CRF 19 took, 35sec and did approx 180fps.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2018, 02:16:20 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on January 28, 2018, 02:13:45 amMuch more like it.Would you please share your render settings for those of us without Vegas to view them, and the settings you used with x264vfw?

author: amspire
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2018, 02:19:51 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on January 28, 2018, 02:09:30 amJust trying Ultrafast CRF 19 now. From Vegas, it did 3:10 - that is faster then my previous 3:30. The resulting render has gone up to 407MBytes. There is no way my CPU can even get close to a dual Xeon. You have to be able to render from Vegas in under 1 minute.Is there a reason for using Handbrake instead of Vegas for the renders?

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 28, 2018, 02:21:09 am
content: Quote from: Monkeh on January 28, 2018, 02:16:20 amMy Handbrake batch file I use for Drag'n'drop transcoding. I have multiple ones of these for different formats and frame rates etc.Code:@echo offFOR /F "tokens=*" %%G IN ('DIR "%~1" /B /S /A:-d') do (FOR /F "tokens=*" %%H IN ('DIR "%%G" /B /A:-d') do ("C:\Program Files\Handbrake\HandBrakeCLI" -i "%%G" -t 1 -c 1 -O -o "%%~nH-1920x1080.mp4" -f mp4 -e x264 --x264-profile high -q 19 -r 50.00 --cfr -a 1 -E faac -B 192 -6 stereo -R 48 --gain=0 --audio-fallback ffac3 -x ref=1:weightp=1:subq=2:rc-lookahead=10:trellis=0:8x8dct=0 --verbose=1))pause

author: amspire
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2018, 02:22:16 am
content: Here are my CRF19 Settings

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2018, 02:26:48 am
content: Your preset is set to 'medium' in x264vfw - this will be slow. Set it to ultrafast.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 28, 2018, 02:31:26 am
content: Quote from: Monkeh on January 28, 2018, 02:26:48 amMakes little difference, still takes over 3 minutes.

author: amspire
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2018, 02:34:15 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on January 28, 2018, 02:31:26 amAre you using Vegas 15? If so, try 14.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2018, 02:35:10 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on January 28, 2018, 02:31:26 amMakes more than a factor of two difference in Handbrake on my machine.Either x264vfw is horribly slow (seems to be just fine for amspire?) or something is wrong.Was your 180fps performance with one or two CPUs, and with or without HT?To clarify: I get 115fps with two X5650s, which are hexacore CPUs at 2.9GHz, with HT on - 24 threads.You get 180fps with...? Potentially two E5-2680 v2s at 3.1GHz with 40 threads. You should spank me more than that, and you should do it equally from x264vfw.

author: amspire
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2018, 02:40:51 am
content: I am using the latest x264vfw_full_44_2851bm_44825.exe for the x264. I installed both the 32 and 64 bit codecs just in case Vegas 14 had a preference for one over the other.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 28, 2018, 02:45:05 am
content: Quote from: amspire on January 28, 2018, 02:40:51 amMine is The same, 64bit only, Vegas 15Vegas 14 about the same speed

author: amspire
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2018, 04:23:33 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on January 28, 2018, 02:45:05 amThe only difference I could see is I had "Field Order" "Upper Field First" set. I changed it to "None (Progressive Scan)" like you and it ran 5 seconds faster!That is not the craziest thing. Have a look at my CPU while I am doing this: 63% to 73% !But as the guys on late night marketing TV say, "But that's not all! There is even more!"I thought maybe on my PC, the rendered was somehow using my GPU. I disabled GPU support in Vegas preferences. CPU usage has gone up to a constant 73% and the render time is now 2:41! So the GTX580 GPU support for the on-screen graphics in Vegas was actually interfering a little in efficient rendering. Perhaps the more modern cards are causing even more interference?You slow Xeon speed is a real puzzle. There is just nothing fast about my PC. It does have 32G DDR3 1333MHz RAM, but it doesn't change when I start rendering. I have a SSD C: drive that is at 0% during the whole render. I am writing to, believe it or not, a 500GByte PATA drive! Yup - none of that SATA rubbish! The CPU is not over-clocked - just 2.77GHz on each of its 6 slow cores.I will try this on the other machine with the GTX1080.

author: amspire
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2018, 06:06:26 am
content: Tried it on a second PhenomII running Windows 10 Pro 1709 (the other one was Windows 8.1) with a GTX1080 card. 8G DDR3 1333MHz RAMSame results:With GPU enabled in Vegas 14 and 15 preferences: Renders in 3:14 - CPU around 63%With GPU disabled in Vegas: Renders in 2:40 - CPU around 74%So same story - GPU assistance for the Vegas GUI interferes with the CPU rendering.Dave, there might be a significant difference between out renders.I am using the test files you sent. When I start Vegas, I get a message about the following missing files: 00009.MTS, 00012.MTS and 00020.MTS. All I have is the file 00019.MTS. If you are rendering the actual edit, that may be slower.

author: amspire
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2018, 08:45:53 am
content: I found some x264 benchmarks:AMD PhenomII 1055T: 25Dual Xeon E5 2687W: 95The E5 2680 is less then 2% slower then the E5 2687W in general benchmarks. So it should be rendering Ultrafast x264 from Vegas at 139 frames/second or 42 seconds.In another benchmark for relative x265 rendering speeds:Phenom II 1055T; x 1.0Dual Xeon E5 2680: x 3.606AMD Ryzen 7 1700: x 3.55AMD Ryzen Threadripper 1950X: x 4.5i7 8700K: x 3.3There have been a number of attempts to fix the recent Intel/Windows vulnerabilities and they often have not worked properly so far.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 28, 2018, 10:09:11 am
content: Quote from: amspire on January 28, 2018, 08:45:53 amI'm getting over 3 minutes, so

author: Howardlong
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2018, 03:56:27 pm
content: FWIW some benchmarks for Vegas Pro 15 on the 2 minute project, using MAGIX AVC/AAC MP4 codec Internet HD 1080p 50 fps:o 1'08" Ryzen 1800x oc 4GHz (8c/16t) NVENC GTX 1080o 2'02" Dual Xeon E5-2696v2 (24c/48t) NVENC GTX 1070o 2'18" i7-8700k (6c/12t) NVENC GTX 1050 tio 2'39" i7-8700k (6c/12t) Intel QSV (iGPU acceleration)o 2'52" Dual Xeon E5-2696v2 (24c/48t) CPU onlyo 3'14" Ryzen 1800x oc 4GHz (8c/16t) CPU onlyo 4'07" i7-8700k (6c/12t) CPU onlyThese render times seem pretty slow to me for h.264 1080p 50fps, but I am not a regular Vegas user: doing the same two minute AVC render on PowerDirector 16 with HVENC on the GTX 1070 took only 0'23", and it was a higher bitrate (27Mbps). Even upscaling it to 2160p rendered in 1'24".

author: alan242
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: January 28, 2018, 07:06:07 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on January 28, 2018, 01:11:37 amAccording to the block diagram on nvidia's website, it looks like NVENC is a front end for the CUDA cores.https://developer.nvidia.com/nvidia-video-codec-sdkOne thing seen in VR workloads are the Pascal cards not ramping up clock speeds during a VR session. The power management seems to think it does not need to clock the load higher based on the perceived load which in VR can lead to ASW kicking in or worse. Luckily, the management can be overriden. Some people say just setting the Power Management Mode to "Prefer maximum performance" under Manage 3D settings in the nvidia control panel fixes it for them. Others (like myself) have used Afterburner or another utility to lock the GPU at a specific voltage and core clock. The GPU will still downclock if it heats up too much, starting at the 50-60c range; but the clocks can still be made to stay well above the chip's base clock and any card factory overclock.I also wonder if there is bottleneck is outside of the video card and that is why the GPU load is low. I do not recall if your workload has RAID disks and the input and output files are on different disks or RAID arrays. If input and output files are on the same physical disk controller, maybe there is a bottleneck there. It may even be that Vegas is coded in a way that it can't feed frames fast enough to keep things moving. Microsoft does have some Windows performance tools that may help verify things are working like they should.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2018, 07:21:51 pm
content: Quote from: alan242 on January 28, 2018, 07:06:07 pmNo.. they just communicate through the same interface."NVIDIA GPUs contain one or more hardware-based decoder and encoder(s) (separate from the CUDA cores)"

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2018, 07:25:31 pm
content: Quote from: alan242 on January 28, 2018, 07:06:07 pmI assume they just use them for a lookahead ME ... they aren't going to be useful for much else. Wasting power on the SMs cores when you can do the same thing with far less power on a tiny amount of silicon doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2018, 07:30:30 pm
content: When using a GPU for computational tasks you may run into a different problem: insufficient cooling. During my cryptocoin mining experiment it turned out the cooling solution on the GPU I was using was only enough to get roughly 1/3 of the performance from the GPU.

author: hans
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2018, 07:46:19 pm
content: Similarly; new Intel CPU's are getting less specific in their "turbo" all-core clocks (compared to base), as it heavily depends on the workload (as we all know I think). This is also yet another reason to pay the few 10$ premium for a K part, as they have higher spec'ed turboandbase clocks, which helps with minimum guaranteed performance..In particular, "AVX workloads" (advanved vector instructions) are useda lotin CPU video encoding, and are particularly high power. Especially Intel are quite strong with their quite recent AVX2 instruction sets, which 1st gen AMD Threadripper and Ryzen are lacking. If you look up H265 encoding benchmarks you'll see Intel pull ahead quite well, and I think there is still some deficiency in H264 as well;https://uk.hardware.info/reviews/7585/7/intel-core-i9-7980xe--7960x-review-intel-back-in-the-lead-with-18-cores-benchmarks-video--and-audio-encoding-x264-x265-and-flacOf course bang/buck ratio is a different story.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 28, 2018, 10:03:46 pm
content: Quote from: Howardlong on January 28, 2018, 03:56:27 pmSeems all over the shop. My dual Xeon with a GTX 1050 has done both 1:10 and 1:35 for the same thing. Crazy.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2018, 10:24:16 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on January 28, 2018, 10:03:46 pmAs I wrote above: the cooling on a graphics card may not be sufficient to get maximum performance. Once I rigged my cryptomining setup with a blower on the GPU and airflow ducts so cold air got sucked in and hot air got blown out it could deliver twice the performance so the difference is not just a few percent.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2018, 10:28:42 pm
content: The GTX 1050 is quite a low power card, and the hardware encoding doesn't even use the main GPU hardware. Thermals are really not a problem.

author: amspire
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2018, 11:27:58 pm
content: The GTX 1050 and 1060 families have one NVENC engine. The GTX 1070 and 1080 families have two NVENC engines. The GTX1030 uses a GP108 chip and I am not sure if it has any NVENC engine at all.As I have mentioned before, these engines are capable of about 350 frames per second each of high quality 1080P H.264 and so the speed is dependant on the speed of the encoding streams feeding the engines. For 1080P high quality, it seems the optimal number of streams need is about 9 for two engines and 4 or 5 for one engine. That is based on the nVidia data on the Quadro cards that use the same chips as the GTX family and that are allowed to run unlimited numbers of encoding streams.Licensing issues means that the non-Quadro cards are limited to two streams so that is the bottleneck. Potentially, you could get the similar NVENC speeds from a 1060 or a 1080. When you allow Vegas to use CUDA rendering, it uses it for the special effects in the editing, so it really does help if you have added a lot of effects. If not, CUDA rendering doesn't speed things up at all.The GTX 1050 chip seems to only be capable of two HQ encoding streams but if the streams are efficient enough, it still could possibly perform almost as well as a GTX1080. It all comes down to the software feeding the cards.So if you have a GTX1070/1080, you have a card with an encoding engine capable of 700 1080P High Quality H.264 frames a second, you are doing very well if you can feed it quick enough to get 200 frames per second.If you are the proud owner of a Titan, then you have 3 NVENC engines but you can still only run 2 streams. I guess it is always handy to have a spare.I don't have a fast modern CPU right now but I did find MediaCoder seems to be a fairly efficient transcoder that includes NVENC. You are meant to have to pay for GPU encoding, but NVENC worked fine on my free version. On my old system, it did seem to use the CPU processors more efficiently then Vegas. It is possibly a good way to get the real NVENC of a CPU/NVENC speed. It used NVENC 7.0 and the latest SDK is NVENC 8.0. You should have nVidia drivers 378.66 or newer (Windows) or 378.13 or newer (Linux).http://www.mediacoderhq.com/download.htm

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2018, 12:23:22 am
content: I still fail to see the logic in using a hardware encoder. A couple minutes of background activity for better quality and/or less bandwidth for thousands of viewers.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2018, 12:27:55 am
content: Quote from: Marco on January 29, 2018, 12:23:22 amIt's ending up on Youtube, so any arguments about quality are pretty much moot.

author: amspire
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2018, 12:38:19 am
content: Quote from: Marco on January 29, 2018, 12:23:22 amThe problem here is that Dave's dual Xeon is strangely slow with both software and hardware rendering and the rendering times also seem erratic. I think he would be happy to solve the slowdown problem with either CPU or GPU rendering.

author: kaz911
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2018, 03:45:42 pm
content: I just did a test with DaVinci Resolve compared to Vegas Pro 15 - and Resolve renders about 30-40% faster on the same PC (NVidia M4000 / Xeon Mobile 1505v3) - and more or less same settings. (1 main video - 2nd picture in picture video 1080p)Resolve pushes CPU to 100% where Vegas only pushes to about 60-70% - GPU load not very high on either(15-20%) - Vegas pushes on the Encode/Decode part of the GPU where Resolve seem to use the 3D part according to Task Manager Win10.

author: Electro Detective
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 30, 2018, 07:15:18 am
content: Which version/Build numbers of both programs, and what hardware and operating sytem?

author: kaz911
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 30, 2018, 09:58:28 am
content: Quote from: Electro Detective on January 30, 2018, 07:15:18 amWin 10 latest crappy updateThinkPad P70 - External USB 3 SSD (about 500/500 read write speed)Resolve : latest v14 downloaded 2 days agoVegas Pro v15 - build 261 (latest)Output 1080p / 25fps - mp4 - 20mbps max on both. Vegas using NVENC - Resolve using whatever it wants (it makes its own decisions)Only "effect" - Picture in picture - rotate 180 deg - 720p stream on top of 1080p with 720p scaled to about 1/6 lower left corner. In Vegas it is an built in Effect - in Resolve it is a "Inspector/Transform"Resolve - Lots less crashesOriginal media prepared through PluralEyes for Sync (you load a bunch of video files and it auto sync's them based on sound) - in Vegas you run it FROM Vegas. With Resolve you do it manually and export as Premier XML then import into Resolve. PluralEyes did about 9 hours of recording X 2 cameras - and synced them up in about 6 minutes. And the 720p camera is a terrible camera with really bad sound.