EEVblog #850 - French Wattway Solar Roadways BUSTED - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 13, 2016, 06:31:19 am
content: This time it's France and their governments ludicrous plan to install 1000km of Solar Roadways from French road building giant Colas Wattway.Dave breaks down yet again why this is pie-in-the-sky bullshit.Also an update on the 12 months test results of the SolaRoad.nl project in the Netherlands.Rooftop solar panel output data:http://pvoutput.org/aggregate.jsp?id=24667http://pvoutput.org/aggregate.jsp?id=10682http://pvoutput.org/aggregate.jsp?id=19770Great article on this:https://www.equities.com/news/france-s-solar-roads-plan-a-costly-inefficient-boondoggle

author: orion242
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 13, 2016, 07:01:59 am
content: Good video.Impressed these fraudsters can still get money for this crap idea. Is this the new American dream? Figure out some BS idea that has a hint of reality and milk investors for everything you can with fancy marketing?What happens to these jokers went the house of cards finally falls? Do they walk on to the next BS idea and repeat?

author: RobertoLG
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 13, 2016, 07:32:31 am
content: Martin Lorton is doing some research with diferent types of solar panels (small scale), with artificial light, trying to simulate sun light, I know it doen't have directly to do with the roadways, but I tought people would like to learn a bit more about the panell caracteristics and other stuff that affects performance, just poiting out ok?herehttps://www.youtube.com/user/mjlorton

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 13, 2016, 07:46:10 am
content: Engineering problems aside, I'm sure the Romanian cable thieves will appreciate all that neatly bundled roadside cabling.

author: nwvlab
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 13, 2016, 08:11:27 am
content: Dave, I appreciate your videos, as you always provide numbers and also the references to them!I'm still impressed that in 2016 there are people thinking that solar roadways can bring advantagesI wonder also how long is the energy payback for those devices (considering also maintenance, etc)... Maybe it is much longer than the device lifetime... therefore you possibly won't gain a single joule in making these roadways... what an eco-sustainable choice!Could not be more feasible and advantageous a covered cycling road/walk way (it would be also better when it rains), with some solar panels on top ? I'm afraid that this would be still less efficient that a proper solar power plant...Cheers

author: firewalker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 13, 2016, 09:28:39 am
content: Now you have an extra panel, set it up to your roadway!Alexander.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 13, 2016, 10:55:14 am
content: Quote from: nwvlab on February 13, 2016, 08:11:27 amYes! Almost anything you can think of is better than solar panels with trucks driving over them.(...and this sort of thing has been discussed at great length inthe other thread)

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 13, 2016, 10:56:00 am
content: Quote from: nwvlab on February 13, 2016, 08:11:27 amYes, very likely the payback isnegative.Ground and roof systems are insanely reliable and last for decades almost maintenance free.After 100+ years of road research and refinement, regular roads need fixing every few years, so can't imagine solar roads being any better. Almost certainly worse.QuoteI showed this video at the end, they did it in South Korea.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 13, 2016, 11:13:37 am
content: How big would the electrical grid to take the power away from the roads to somewhere useful be?I'd say at least as big as the existing power distribution grids in each country. Plus you'll need a lot of small inverters to boost the voltage up to a decent transmission level.How much would that cost?

author: kripton2035
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 13, 2016, 11:42:49 am
content: Dave, you should subtitle (in french) your video and send it to our french ministers...we are used to politicians wasting money here, but yes they have found a new ecological way to do it for some more years...

author: Guni
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 13, 2016, 11:50:13 am
content: From our point of view, from engineering and economical point of view this is bullshit. But if we ask our-self who will get the money, who will get this contract ...? You know it's not a black and white.

author: Zbig
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 13, 2016, 12:33:14 pm
content: Dave, you're overdoing that silly "head explodes" thing. Could you just stick to the old good facepalms, pretty please?

author: kripton2035
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 13, 2016, 01:00:24 pm
content: Quote from: Guni on February 13, 2016, 11:50:13 amsimple: every people in france will pay a part of these solar roadwaysand even I think that with europeans money flows, every citizen who pays taxes in europe will pay a small but will pay a part of these ...

author: old gregg
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 13, 2016, 01:31:57 pm
content: as always in France, they say loads of stuff but it may never see the daylight.Quotelike if they would care...

author: Dr. Frank
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 13, 2016, 01:42:39 pm
content: Dave, that's a lively and competent video about this subject, again!Your concerns will not be heard in France, or by the French minister, anyhow, because it's in English only..Most French are reluctant to understand or speak English (and also German, of course), pity that... exceptions are the French members of this forum, of course.Anyhow, this stupid plan will for sure be realized, as politicians are mostly too dumb to think problems through, and they are rarely competent, and advisory-resistant.In Germany, we have similar half bred "green" energy / CO2 reduction activities, initiated by our famous 'We-Will-Manage-That' chancellor, Dr. phys. rer. nat (!) Angela Merkel.That's the brute force switch to "regenerative" energy sources and battery powered cars.Both concepts are still far away from complete practical and sustainable and stable realization, so both the energy supply, and also the batterized mobility will fail in a few years, or will be at least mostly inefficient and costly.Frank

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 13, 2016, 01:55:20 pm
content: Quote from: kripton2035 on February 13, 2016, 11:42:49 amIf someone wants to provide the French subtitle file then I can upload it.

author: TinkerFan
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 13, 2016, 03:05:20 pm
content: Dave in rage mode is just an awful lot of funCan only be topped by solar roadways WITH Dave

author: wblock
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 13, 2016, 03:15:36 pm
content: Every one of these should link to that Korean solar road as an example of a practical way to use solar panels with roads.And I'm still waiting to see how anyone thinks these panels will survive encounters with tire chains or snowplows. Australia might not have much of either, but France does.

author: Artlav
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 13, 2016, 03:18:59 pm
content: I guess the only thing that would put this to rest is someone actually building it and honestly publishing the data.As a net gain there will be knowledge about how to build a reliable solar road and what problems would come out of it.Might come in handy for Mercury colonies and amusement parks, perhaps?Quote from: EEVblog on February 13, 2016, 10:56:00 amDepends. In Montenegro there are still many roads that were built by the late king almost a 100 years ago, still in good conditions.However, they are paved with granite mix and don't see more than a few cars per hour, so maybe not that well a comparison.

author: kripton2035
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 13, 2016, 03:37:41 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on February 13, 2016, 01:55:20 pmI may like to do it, but you're really outputting too many words per minute, and more when you're upset !

author: jancumps
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 13, 2016, 04:38:23 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on February 13, 2016, 01:55:20 pmthey'll understand it without subtitles. Days that the french only spoke french are long gone.

author: bitwelder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 13, 2016, 04:41:34 pm
content: This must be getting the 21st century version of "dig up a hole in the street and re-fill it", with the added 'bonus' (or who knows, perhaps it's even the primary goal) of filling also the pockets of the PV industry contractors.

author: Razor512
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 13, 2016, 04:55:54 pm
content: In my area, the road generally has to be repaired every 1-3 years, after winter, there will be some damage, as well as chunks knocked out when the plows run through. The road also takes a beating due to large trucks regularly running through.Other than that, they also often need to dig the road up when ever they need to do maintenance of water, gas, electrical and data lines. Solar panels on a road used be vehicles will never last long enough to cover their own cost.The problem with governments handling this stuff, is the people who make these choices never think long term, they think only of what is good for their image right now.E.g., some local schools have ordered ipads for all of the students to use in class, after a round 2 years, most of them are not working, the remaining ones have a host of issues such as pressure marks on the screen from people pushing it too hard, scratches, and crap battery life because they are run all day. When I was doing student teaching, and wanted to use the tablets, the cooperating teacher recommended that I avoid them since they are too unreliable, and don't last long enough to get any work done.The principal got tricked into getting a ton of non serviceable tablets that ended up being junk after about 2 years.

author: G7PSK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 13, 2016, 05:06:06 pm
content: What they are really doing is not building a solar roadway, they are mining EU subsidies.The whole of the EU political structure is now out of control and open to abuse by any company.

author: rrinker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 13, 2016, 05:42:48 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on February 13, 2016, 10:56:00 amUnless you happen to be in the path of a meteorite.....

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 13, 2016, 06:08:41 pm
content: Quote from: Razor512 on February 13, 2016, 04:55:54 pmHow much do they normally spend on paper, books, crayons, wooden counting blocks, uniforms, sports kit, designer school bags, etc. every two years?Put it in perspective and a tablet every two years might not be a big deal (so long as they get good value from it before it breaks).(Although I'm sure there's a bigger problem lurking underneath: They'll be totally screwed on price for all the special educational apps that the kids will need)

author: jesuscf
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 13, 2016, 06:37:46 pm
content: After hearing the news about this BS, I was waiting for this video from Dave. Not disappointed! Let see if Thunderf00t makes a video too.

author: Ampere
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 13, 2016, 08:16:11 pm
content: It seems like it would be better to place the panels over the roads. Motorists would be provided shade and protection from rain, and the panels would be able to function even during the largest traffic jam. The best part of it is that existing solar panel materials would be usable because they wouldn't need to withstand such heavy loads nor would they need LEDs to show lines in the road.Everyone wins.

author: Razor512
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 13, 2016, 09:18:43 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on February 13, 2016, 06:08:41 pmYep, they get screwed on licensing, and it doesn't replace textbooks or writing supplies, it is used as a supplement to a lesson. Other than that, schools mandate writing across the curriculum, then lots of textbook use.To make matters worst, they are less function than the heavily discounted lenoovo notebook PCs that the schools typically get.Before the tablet craze, the schools would get thinkpad x130e laptops which cost a little under $200 each after the educational discount. The batteries were removable, so the schools simply stocked a case of replacements, and depending on use (the upper grades use them more), they would simply swap the batteries a week before the next school year started.On the other hand, apple doesn't even give a discount on their tablets, and their iMacs only a very tiny discount, the schools pay a ton for them, and they don't stand up to the abuse.For the tablets, most of them simply sit in the armored storage case, but never get replaced or serviced, since they can't really be serviced. The IT support services for the schools pretty much want nothing to do with them.Other than that,it is easy to trick the administrative staff into ordering a ton of them because many of them may already have an iphone or an ipad, and they will get suckered into seeing all of the educational "benefits" of using them in the classroom to enhance lessons.Sadly li-ion batteries that become frustrating to use after 500-700 charge cycles, are simply not fit for a school environment; same for touch screen displays.-==--=-==-=-=-On a side note, for solar roads, they will have trouble when it snows.After the last large snow fall in NY, we have spots like this on the roads.As soon as the snow begins to fall, trucks flood the streets, dumping salt, then when the snow begins to pile up, the plows come out and they scrape over the streets, while a salt dispensor dumps the large rock salt material, or even sand and larger rock material if the salt is not effective in handling the snow and ice (in order to avoid traction issues for cars and trucks on the road).What needs to be determined is how the panels will stand up to that type of abuse.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 13, 2016, 10:01:38 pm
content: Quote from: jesuscf on February 13, 2016, 06:37:46 pmA Thunderf00t one would be fun, as always, he doesn't hold back.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 13, 2016, 10:41:15 pm
content: Quote from: kripton2035 on February 13, 2016, 11:42:49 amSince when do politicians care about ROI or viability or long term impact or efficiency? Those are non existent measures for them. They only care about themselves, money and votes, the latter two serving themselves.I've shot this image last year in Strasbourg, France, Rue d'Istanbul (nice european name). Notice how the panels are mounted on a 90 degrees angle, they face south. And how the perfectly flat, top of the building is not covered with perfectly angled solar panels on mounts. I saw this multiple times, different parts of the city. They are not there for generating energy the most efficient, economic way... They are there for the show. At least they face south.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 13, 2016, 11:03:37 pm
content: Quote from: Ampere on February 13, 2016, 08:16:11 pmThis makes a lot of sense but the problem is that it will be harder to move/extend the road later on and many people are afraid to drive in a tunnel.The one thing Dave doesn't address but is very likely the reason why solar roadways actually DO make sense: SPACE. A road is an area of land nobody cares about if it is fitted with solar panels. If you drive through the north of Germany you'll see quite large fields perfectly suitable for keeping animals or growing food which are filled with solar panels so valuable land is wasted. The picture above shows the problem with putting solar panels on buildings: Aesthetics. IMHO you also can't compare prices from established technology versus new technology and say the established technology has already won. I you do that there will never be any progress.And even if the French solar road fails the government has sponsored some jobs and hopefully gained a bunch of engineers with hands-on experience with solar panel technology.

author: void_error
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 13, 2016, 11:53:51 pm
content: Quote from: Artlav on February 13, 2016, 03:18:59 pmI think the whole thing with solar roadways should have started smaller, not with several square meters of solar panels lying on the ground, but with solar doormats.It would have probably proven how inefficient it would be to cover scratched solar panels with dust and dirt and we would have had none of this bullshit waste of money and time and resources.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 14, 2016, 12:09:48 am
content: These kinds of projects should probably just be seen as job creation schemes, fueled by the very low interest rates that prevail today.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 14, 2016, 12:37:09 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on February 13, 2016, 11:03:37 pmBecause the ridiculous number ofpracticaldownsides of using them as a road surface completely trumps the fact that it might make sensein theory.You shouldn't invest in something that just makes sense in theory, if the practical downsides arealready known, anddemonstrablywill not get better with time.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 14, 2016, 01:46:35 am
content: Quote from: Ampere on February 13, 2016, 08:16:11 pmQuote from: nctnico on February 13, 2016, 11:03:37 pmI've been thinking on similar lines - and came up with this idea (using a bit of rough image bashing):Before the last lanes are added:and after:

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 14, 2016, 01:57:49 am
content: Just a few points that came to mind very easily:The strong centre barrier would be a good starting point for securing the support stanchions and protecting them against impact.There is minimal chance of overshadowing by vegetation and nearby structuresHigh loads can still travel along the road - just avoiding the centre lanes and thus keeping to the slow lanes.Road works are minimally impactedExisting solar technology will provide more power than any road surface based madnessReduced risk of accident damageElectrical risk elevatedThe wind risks are much higher, though...

author: edy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 14, 2016, 02:36:17 am
content: Me thinks there is a construction mafia in collusion with politicians and some greasing going on to get these ludicrous projects on the taxpayer dollar.Sounds to me like it is a way to create "work" for either unions or spread money into the economy to trickle it down and hope it boosts the economy, as many infrastructure projects hope to accomplish. There is also the potential "ecotourism" spin-off as who knows what is going to line this road. Maybe a "tech-valley" will be started.What happened to independent scientific/engineering evaluation as demanded by (a) the opposition government and (b) the taxpaying public. We in Canada have had similar engineering fiascos that cost us huge amounts of money for no reason. Just because it *can* be done, doesn't mean it *should* be done. Then again, the government loves spending other people's money.I like the South Korean idea the best.It has to be much cheaper than paving the roads, yet still follows the roadway. It creates a sheltered path for cyclists and also an easy way to guide cables and send out maintenance workers without disrupting traffic. Depending on the direction of the road, it can be set at an angle to maximize efficiency (east-west roads would be best).Let's hope it is all talk and no action, for the sake of the French tax-paying public who are about to be reamed royally if they are to fund such a project... and don't forget to follow the money trail as I can't help but suspect there is a huge dose of either nepotism, bribery or kickbacks involved here somewhere.SOUTH KOREAN ROADWAY:

author: DrGeoff
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 14, 2016, 02:44:40 am
content: Quote from: Ampere on February 13, 2016, 08:16:11 pmIt would be better if they were as far away from roads as possible.Have you seen what happens when some dickhead dumptruck driver 'accidentally' tilts his tray in a tunnel? We see that in Sydney on a regular basis. There goes all the fittings again. Imagine the devastation when he does it under a solar installation!Better to stick them in a field as a solar farm.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 14, 2016, 03:03:52 am
content: Quote from: edy on February 14, 2016, 02:36:17 amOkay.... I hadn't seen that before.

author: edy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 14, 2016, 03:21:04 am
content: Quote from: Brumby on February 14, 2016, 03:03:52 amI'm not saying the South Korean idea is the best either.... But it is (as Dave would say) "Orders Of Magnitude" better than a solar roadway IN THE ROADWAY ITSELF. It some form of "solar" mixed with a "roadway" so that is close enough to make it cool and news-catchy, which seems to be about all the substance there is to these projects... news-bites for the uneducated public who have no idea how costly and inefficient they are.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 14, 2016, 03:40:26 am
content: Yes, it certainly is better than the 'drive over' solar panel solution, but it did give me one more feature of the idea I cobbled together:Can be retrofitted to existing roads(Now I'm just waiting for someone to show me it's not a new idea. The South Korean one came close...)

author: rrinker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 14, 2016, 04:23:10 am
content: Seems fairly reasonable to me. Maybe not the total area and thus power generation the roadway idiots would like to claim, but no special new technology needed, and it takes advantage of existing space, and no wiring trenches to dig along the shoulders of the road. Are there any reports available on the Korean system? Be interesting to see how that compares to the calculated true results of the solar roads - like Dave's best case calculations, not the pie in the sky estimates from the backers.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 14, 2016, 05:33:33 am
content: Quote from: rrinker on February 14, 2016, 04:23:10 amI've yet to see any data at all on the South Korean system, or even a capacity figure.

author: sarepairman2
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 14, 2016, 05:36:58 am
content: well at least solar road way panels cannot fall off the roof after they are mounted by drunken contractors (have you ever met a roofer??).to play devils advocate,I feel like in general solar roadways have the benefit of being essentially town/goverment run, as they are on public space, so its easy for city planning/power company/etc to have stable numbers to work with.Otherwise you have the uncertainty of "how many people are going to go for putting solar panels on their roof and stick with it and maintain their systems", meaning the need for redundancy never really goes away, and citizens are kind of holding each other hostage if taken to the ultimate extreme(could be a good or bad thing). Would you want a goverment inspector coming to your home to make sure your solar panels are in good condition since they are a community good? Solar roadways would allow like, "strategic" decisions to be made imo.certain kinds of decisions could be avoided just because there is the idea that its possible for the citizens to hold the goverment by the balls by taking down the solar panels they own. Imagine if you owned the sidewalk infront of your house and a neighborhood could just have a informal town meeting and say we want to charge the goverment to remove the fence off our sidewalk. if our demands are not met....I could see solar roadways becoming "reliable critical infrastructure" and essentially guaranteeing safe roads (as there is incentive to upkeep them as they produce money, rather then the only incentive currently being complaints about bad road conditions.Solar road ways could transform the electric grid and have politicians be OK with it. Rooftop panels + civil liberties results in a rather ad-hock system.Granted, this means if you want to buy a street to build a building it might be alot more expensive to buy as it is a power plant lol, talk about zoning nightmares

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 14, 2016, 05:37:22 am
content: Quote from: edy on February 14, 2016, 02:36:17 amNot implying it's the case here, but the head of the company that own Colas has been investigated for political donation fraud before:http://connection.ebscohost.com/c/articles/9601160251/bouygues-chief-under-scrutiny

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 14, 2016, 05:39:44 am
content: Quote from: sarepairman2 on February 14, 2016, 05:36:58 amThere are other ways to do that without driving cars on the bloody panels. Look at the South Korean example for starters.QuoteRegular roads require maintenance every few years. Solar roads and reliability should not be used in the same sentence.

author: sarepairman2
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 14, 2016, 05:41:21 am
content: i meant that they would stay in goverment control no matter what. and you would not have a protest about the "gobbermint stealing oah ruufs"as in, we can send in some national guard to restore power to our city and we can use them to make serious grid planning decisions without trying to push mad legislation.as a politician I could admire the fact that the community has such a nice distributed power plant, but I could not say "oh we won't bother running HV transmissions lines here because we crowdsource power" because then the town would have me by the balls.And of course the power company could fuck the whole community if the system is that we have to sell power to them or use it ourselves. You would need a darknet/bitcoin style setup for power routing.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 14, 2016, 05:45:48 am
content: Quote from: sarepairman2 on February 14, 2016, 05:41:21 amWhat's all this talk about government stealing people's roofs?The government has tons of land and building that don't have solar panels. Put panels on that land first.People's homes are their homes, if you want panels on them offer incentives for people to take it up. Works well in many countries.

author: sarepairman2
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 14, 2016, 05:47:46 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on February 14, 2016, 05:45:48 amyes but you could never make a radical change this way, I am just saying that road ways might allow for that if there is enough of them.I think there is a strong benefit to them, of course I am not saying that NOW is the right time to implement them.if there is enough sqft of goverment building roof to meet all demand then the point is moot. i am assuming there is not.how would you do distributed power in a suburb without solar roadways? almost all private land i imagine (other then roads).i am focusing on the point of decentralized power generation right outside of your house, not solar energy. a powerful idea imo.imo solar roadways fit under the umbra of decentralized power creation. decentralized anything is way more expensive then centralized anything, almost always. you can't attack the idea of decentralized power with the alternative of power plants (large land areas), and using private property of course becomes a massive political problem.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 14, 2016, 05:54:38 am
content: Would be interesting to see Colas put the panels through the standard roadway accelerated test that is used with every new construction or application method. Basically a section is made in the yard to the exact spec, 50m long. then you run a bogie over it on standard truck tyres and axles, with a load equal to the maximum allowable axle loading ( here that would be 22 tons or so per axle) using a long steel guide beam and a heavy electric motor so you basically run it back and forth 24/7 for 6 months, every week taking readings on wear of the road, deflection, tyre wear, power use and such.This test gives you a fair indicator of how this surface will fare in the typical 15 year road life cycle before replacement. In most cases a tar road will have deep rutting and compaction after 5 months of this, and a concrete road will exhibit major edge damage and joint failure, along with severe surface wear.A solar road tile will not survive this standard test, and any stick on coat will fail long before the end as well from the cold flow of the tar underlay. The picture of an empty truck on the tile is fine, now just start the engine and, with the brakes on, do a 5 cycle dry steer on the tile and see if it survives when you put a dual front steer on it loaded to the legal axle load with crusher mix. 12 tons load per steering axle, which can damage standard good tar that has not had a long enough time to outgas, or on a very hot day.

author: Kilrah
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 14, 2016, 05:59:41 am
content: Quote from: Artlav on February 13, 2016, 03:18:59 pmBut that would require time, investment, and most importantly, honesty and accepting you've been wrong in the end, so it'll never happen (well yeah it will, but only on a full scale implementation so you get to harvest all the money from building an entire system before people get to see how useless it is, then you can say "oh well too bad, but now it's there anyway so let's just use it", and get the 2nd half of the money through the utterly expensive maintenance it will require).Quote from: orion242 on February 13, 2016, 07:01:59 amYep my conclusion too. Best concise description I've ever read about it.

author: sarepairman2
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 14, 2016, 06:00:41 am
content: i wonder how resistant these solar panel road ways are to nuclear combat/solar flares/terrorism vs current infrastructure.i would appreciate if you evaluated this issue. many governments are putting in serious $$$ into hardening their infrastructure, which is kind of a hidden cost.perhaps a well designed distributed power generation system could harden nations. or weaken them, i dont know.power generation in the hands of the people reminds be a little bit of the Chinese "great leap forward".

author: ruurdjan
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: February 14, 2016, 06:47:27 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on February 14, 2016, 05:45:48 amI think you'll find that the total roof area of all government buildings is totally dwarfed by the total area of all federal roadways.US example:http://www.gsa.gov/portal/content/10450110.000 buildings across the US (let's assume they can put solar panels on leased buildings). Average area? No idea... Let's say 100m2 for argument's sake. So that's 1 Million m2.Total length of all US interstates (federal owned -https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interstate_Highway_System): 77.000km. Average wdths - again, no idea but let's say 6 lanes plus two shoulders (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interstate_Highway_standards) = 6*12ft + 2*10ft = 92ft = 28 meter.Total area: 28*70 Million: 2000 square meter.A 2000-fold difference (less than I expected).I'd be interested in a non-monetary calculation of efficiency - stating 'it's bullshit' just based on $$ doesn't take into account the cost of the environment (which we can't really reasonably express in $$).Engineering-wise - I'd agree, it's a very hard case to make. But that for me just means we should try harder, not abandon the idea.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 14, 2016, 08:37:06 am
content: Quote from: sarepairman2 on February 14, 2016, 05:47:46 amHaving "enough" of something that doesn't work properly and has a negative return, is not a solution you want at any cost.QuoteIt willneverbe the right time to implement them. That is the entire point.If you have numbers to prove that solar roadways are viable, then present them.And you said you think there is a "strong benefit to them". How can you possibly know that? No need to answer, because it's a rhetorical question, the answer is you can't. Why? Because there is zero data that solar roads are in any way practical as a road surface. And the evidence as solar production system actually shows the opposite to "strong benefit".You obviously think the concept has a strong benefit, but sorry, that doesn't cut it.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 14, 2016, 08:38:43 am
content: Quote from: ruurdjan on February 14, 2016, 06:47:27 amSee my previous post about providing numbers to prove this will ever be a viable solution. I'm betting you can't provide such numbers.The idea should be abandoned, it isdemonstrablylunacy.

author: Kilrah
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 14, 2016, 09:03:45 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on February 14, 2016, 08:37:06 amI agree with you 99%, but I'd still say cautious and as we say,never say "never".Playing Devil's advocate here of course, but how would the numbers bode with panels with 80% efficiency?Of course it will always be more energy efficient to run them in a place where there isn't anything covering or rolling on them, but if it's the only place they are accepted there might still probably be a point in the future where a combination of some secondary aspects can push the currently negative return into the positive, even if only slightly. Could be evolutions in completely unrelated fields that aren't even taken into account or thought of today.While putting panels overhead like in the Korean solution makes so much more sense, maybe there'll be a day where just laying a layer of panels on the road and only needing a conventional cleaning truck to run on them every once in a while during quiet times at night to keep them clean becomes cheaper and simpler than building structures to put panels on top of them then dealing with more difficult access to clean them, even when factoring the drop in efficiency.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 14, 2016, 09:07:16 am
content: In an effort to approach the subject from a different perspective, I started to think - "What would it take for solar roadways tobecomeviable?".... and the more attributes that were considered, the more it became obvious that many of the improvements that might be developed for solar roadways, simply put the more traditional solar installations that much further ahead.The only time they could be 'viable' is if there was nowhere else that could be used and economics became second to power delivery..... and we'd be in a right royal mess if it ever got to that.

author: nwvlab
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 14, 2016, 09:43:26 am
content: Quote from: Kilrah on February 14, 2016, 09:03:45 amState of the art multijunction solar cells can't even reach 50% (http://www.nrel.gov/ncpv/images/efficiency_chart.jpg). And I'm talking about cells, because the panel efficiency is even lower. Furthermore, they cost a lot and they are used in those applications where there is almost no other ways to have electric energy at discrete power levels, such as satellites.Single junction solar cells have a theoretical maximum efficiency smaller than 34%. That's the Shockley–Queisser limit.We should not only look at the efficiency, but also we should consider the energy payback time (if it's longer than the device lifetime and if you can obtain energy by other means, it's better not to use them!), and reliability.For instance, if they had a good reliability, organic solar cells, despite they have a much lower efficiency, could be more suitable, because they are very cheap (roll to roll manufacture) and the energy payback time is short (much shorther than single junction silicon cells). And there is plenty of unused space.Unfortunately, they have a very poor reliability (especially if you plan to use them in a such harsh environment as roadways)... By the way, even if they had the best reliability ever, you should avoid using them in applications where shading is frequent (i.e. don't put on a road!), because it is very stressful for them.

author: Kilrah
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 14, 2016, 10:18:33 am
content: Quote from: nwvlab on February 14, 2016, 09:43:26 amI'm only playing on Dave's insistance aboutnever. Maybe in 50 years we'll have solar cell technology that's got nothing in common with today's, is based on things we don't even know of now and for which 80% efficiency is peanuts, comes for the price of a piece of paper and with which mechanical resistance is not a concern, nobody knows.To me declaring that something willneverbe possible is as much of a broken statement as saying solar roadways are viable today

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 14, 2016, 10:28:04 am
content: Quote from: Kilrah on February 14, 2016, 09:03:45 amI did concede in the video that there are perhaps niche case uses.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 14, 2016, 10:31:52 am
content: Quote from: Kilrah on February 14, 2016, 10:18:33 amThe physics won't change:1) Flat solar cells on the road will not be as efficient as properly installed angled ones.2) The dirt and grime blocking the won't magically disappear, unless we get hover conversions.3) The maintenance and installation issues won't magically go away.

author: ornea
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 14, 2016, 11:09:43 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on February 13, 2016, 01:55:20 pmBetter yet, dub into french. It would be a hoot to hear dubbed with the same passion and enthusiasm as Dave put into this one.

author: Kilrah
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 14, 2016, 11:22:11 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on February 14, 2016, 10:31:52 amNo, but it's impossible to say all of these willneverbecome an acceptable compromise either.1) Sure, but what if it's no more possibility to install properly angled ones (because politics or space availability e.g. all houses are already equipped, other land reserved for different uses)?2) Dirt and grime is also an issue on other installations, and roads could actually be easier to clean3) No, but they could become easy enough compared to other options to make it interesting.Again it's only theneverI can't concieve, only a "not in the foreseeable future".No issues about the rest, incidentally I'd go further and say that right now even just researching it is a blatant waste of time and effort given that in the current state of things and foreseeable evolutions it only takes quick calculations to show there isn't a chance as you've shown. I put it in the same facepalm-worthy category as attempts at things like electric airplanes which have been demonstrated recently, for which it's obvious that given the current battery technology and foreseeable short term evolutions they're completely pointless. Spending a couple of years now making some custom developments (motors, controllers and things) based on existing general purpose designs to make it work in that application only to show it off when you know you've got nothing to power it to do anything useful makes absolutely no sense, the required developments are minor and can be done quickly enough that you'd better just keep that idea on a shelf until a solution to the major problem is there, or about to be. You'll have more than enough time to build your plane and develop your simple custom electronics between the moment the magic battery with 10x the performance enters production and actually becomes available for you to use. And given that likely won't be before years, anything done today will be obsolete when the time for it comes, given advances in other technological aspects you'll be able to do it better and cheaper if you do it at the right time e.g. once you've actually got all the required parts and technologies at your disposal, so really a total waste.Unfortunately there's a thing called marketing that craves for "shiny new exciting" but useless things and will justify any level of engineering stupidity and somehow manage to put value in that wasted time...On the other hand that allows people who would probably be bored or not have a job to do something that they probably find cool or like, so well...

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 14, 2016, 11:28:37 am
content: Quote from: ornea on February 14, 2016, 11:09:43 amDos Youtube even support audio dubbing?

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 14, 2016, 11:30:50 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on February 14, 2016, 12:37:09 amStill... what if roads end up to be the only place left to place additional solar panels? This is very unlikely in Australia because there is a lot of space out there where you could build a huge solar farm but in Europe there is not much space for solar panels. And there is always the 'great but not in my back yard effect'. In the NL they already have trouble putting wind turbines several tens of kilometers off-shore because people complain their view over the sea will be affected. The same goes for solar panels mounted at their optimum angle: the space available for that is very limited in cities where it has to look pleasant as well.

author: Kilrah
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 14, 2016, 11:40:46 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on February 14, 2016, 11:28:37 amJust upload a separate video with different soundtrack.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 14, 2016, 11:46:58 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on February 14, 2016, 11:30:50 amAnother theoretic what-if question.I'd be staggered that if all rooftops and suitable public land,androads and parking lots covered etc didn't cater for all our solar supply needs.There are just so many other much much much better options than driving on solar panels, it the absolute last desperate resort, and IMO not even worthy of a "what if" discussion.But go ahead, argue away, good luck trying to come up with solutions for driving on solar panels that that low enough maintenance that doesn't make it a net negative investment.Solar roadways doesn't magically become a viable idea because we have run out of space and its the only option.

author: HackedFridgeMagnet
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 14, 2016, 11:58:23 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on February 14, 2016, 11:30:50 amThere is so much energy incident on earth via the sun that this wont happen.Surely they will integrate them into residential roofing in the medium term, not just put them on top and you will never need a solar road.It's not that you cant do it, it's just that it clearly isn't the best solution, now or in the future.Picture of suburbs of Sydney. Plenty of unused roof space here.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 14, 2016, 12:44:37 pm
content: Quote from: edy on February 14, 2016, 02:36:17 amPrecisely. This is a bad joke of a compulsory crowdfunding project paid by the taxpayers...The idea may have taken off in France due to the events in Fukushima. France has a very large nuclear installed capacity and the public opinion may naturally be open to alternative ideas, thus easing approval.Quote from: EEVblog on February 14, 2016, 05:33:33 amWith the current tensions in the region, I don't expect you will see public data anytime soon.Quote from: nctnico on February 14, 2016, 11:30:50 amI can see this being a tougher issue with smaller countries such as Holland, Japan, etc. which will always have to balance accounts with energy imports. That does not make roadways practical in their current shape, but certainly lowers the minimum compromise level.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 14, 2016, 01:48:37 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on February 14, 2016, 11:46:58 amAlso @HackedFridgeMagnet: As I wrote before, space is not available in all places. When I visited New Zealand with a co-worker from Australia he and the NZ people told me you could drive 20 minutes outside the city and walk in the woods for days without meeting a single person. Especially in In the north-west part of Europe that is just impossible. It is difficult to wrap your head around these differences in population density and what effect they have on available space for things like large scale solar farms. For example: the NL is the second largest exporter of agricultural products in the world. This means that solar panels will have to earn a whole lot of money in order to use precious land for solar panels instead of growing some kind of plants. Land just isn't free.Ofcourse it is very likely heavy trucks will wreck solar roads but on many multi lane roads the trucks are only allowed in one or two lanes. In Germany for example you can clearly see the right most lane(s) is(are) constructed differently for that reason.

author: lem_ix
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 14, 2016, 02:39:05 pm
content: Very disturbing, but just what people want. Expect a facebook version of these solar tiles at some point, you can read your wall while driving !( probs will have to take power off the grid to run it tho ... )Meanwhile real progress is made on passion and sweat of engineers.

author: G7PSK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 14, 2016, 03:14:08 pm
content: There are many kilometres of dykes in the Netherlands much of which has a south facing side which could be covered in solar panels instead of roads.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 14, 2016, 03:40:07 pm
content: Quote from: G7PSK on February 14, 2016, 03:14:08 pmAnd as a bonus they do not need to be walk on proof, just able to withstand a Category 9 storm that regularly trundles in from the Atlantic. That is probably easier than making one that will withstand a truck.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 14, 2016, 04:10:10 pm
content: Quote from: SeanB on February 14, 2016, 03:40:07 pmNote that most dykes are inside the country because -roughly speaking- the west part of the NL is basically a swamp below sea level and canals to transport the water out are sandwiched between two dykes. The idea isn't bad but there are a few issues:- The 'not in my back yard' principle applies so people will complain their view gets ruined- I'm not sure what the building restrictions are on dykes. They may look like heaps of dirt overgrown by grass but dykes are probably the most critical piece of infrastructure in the NL.- Dykes may be inhabited by plants and or animals which may not be disturbed and many are also used to keep cattle.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 14, 2016, 05:00:54 pm
content: Quote from: Ampere on February 13, 2016, 08:16:11 pmPeople would complain they can't see the sky.

author: Kleinstein
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 14, 2016, 06:14:33 pm
content: The simple cost comparison does not work that way: part of the lower energy output is due to lower peak power per area for the solar roadway. So you can't just multiply the two factors. Still I don't see a chance for getting a competitive price.Using the roads only makes sense if there is absolutely no alternative other open areas. Using the road is rather expensive and likely short lifetime. A well scratched panel might loose about half the efficiency. Not having the angel for highest energy output could actually be an advantage, as power output is a little less peaked around noon. So the horizontal orientation is not that bad. In Germany they already start using roofs angled to east or west and consider higher payments for them.There are many alternative places, that are better suited, like roofs and walls of building. A big candidate would be a system that replaces roofing material, not just put on top of a roof. I also think the Korean solution is more realistic if you really need the road area. Especially parking lots are better in the shade in sunny regions.However I don't think area will get that scare: There is plenty of dessert areas and land, where agriculture is limited by the amount of rain and not by the amount of sunlight. So in dry regions, using something like half the area for solar might even help to make the residual land more useful for agriculture.In less sunny regions wind power is likely more cost efficient anyway.

author: bitslice
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 14, 2016, 07:01:51 pm
content: Dave, is there any chance you could drop the word "bullshit" from your videos on this topic?Whenever the topic comes up on other forums the gushing plebs post the same solar roadways promotional material, but when an Engineer comes along to post one of your videos to refute it, he then gets banned because swearing isn't allowed on a lot of forums (yep, BS is considered swearing in the UK, sorry).Like I couldn't even link this thread because again it would contain the same word :/I know you don't like changing your stuff to suit other people, but until other Engineers step up there isn't a lot of informed videos on the topic and you are someone what of a torch bearer for this issue.Thanks

author: Razor512
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 14, 2016, 07:34:27 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on February 14, 2016, 05:00:54 pmIn such a case, they can make dome lik structures which cover the road and have parallel likes of clear class (to see the sky), and solar panels (with street lights mounted under them (thus lighting at night). the sides can be completely open for airflow.For parking lots, it can also be useful; no more having a insanely hot car when you park it for a few minutes on a summer day.

author: edy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 14, 2016, 09:39:24 pm
content: Quote from: bitslice on February 14, 2016, 07:01:51 pmI vote for using the word "Bollocks".http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Bollocks

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 14, 2016, 10:40:57 pm
content: Thanks to a viewer, French subtitles are now available on the video. Hopefully they are accurate.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2016, 12:04:36 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on February 13, 2016, 11:03:37 pmWe already have some solar panels by a road in Australia, see attachment below. Its not great and just hiding a rubbish dump site, and the glare off the panels is rather dangerous at times. You can explore some of it via google maps:https://www.google.com.au/maps/@-37.7676041,144.8048665,3a,75y,241.69h,79.11t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sRgGjvF4twpCQ4qDtafLY5A!2e0!7i13312!8i6656Quote from: EEVblog on February 14, 2016, 11:46:58 amTo replace all other forms of energy input a typical person needs hundreds of square meters of solar panels, so its not a viable option for everyone unless we start making huge solar farms in the desert. Australia is almost the ideal case for solar with the low population density and favourable insolation, but the scale of the system needed is extreme. Coveringeveryroad in Australia with solar panels would meet around half the populations energy demand (not including industrial!).

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 15, 2016, 12:49:54 am
content: Quote from: wilfred on February 14, 2016, 11:36:27 pmSo you prefer I pander to the politically correct crowd? (of course you do)But looking at this critically, I did actually bust the French Wattway system, so it's probably more a BUSTED video than a ranting BULLSHIT video.I tend to use the term about 50/50 on my debunking videos.Perhaps I'll change the title. But then of course everyone will think I'm pandering to the PC crowd

author: rrinker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2016, 01:00:17 am
content: Perfect thing to post here and the video of a 10 second quote has been removed from YouTube for copyright violation. Grrrr. That is total bullshit.Oh well, any Blues Brothers fans will know what I wanted to post.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 15, 2016, 01:06:34 am
content: Quote from: bitslice on February 14, 2016, 07:01:51 pmUse bit.ly or something.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 15, 2016, 01:35:21 am
content: Quote from: wilfred on February 15, 2016, 01:23:52 amYou could be very wrong indeed.Who knows, my "swearing" might actually get the attention of more people because it might elicit a different emotional response in them that gets them more fired up about the issue.QuoteYou're damn right I will, always have.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 15, 2016, 01:41:15 am
content: Quote from: wilfred on February 15, 2016, 01:23:52 amI generally dislike people who tell other people (especially me) how they should talk and what words they should use. That gets an automatic "screw you" response and an instant PC label.I don't believe for one second that your intent here ispurelyconstructive as you describe, and that you don't want me to stop swearing because you don't personally like it, at least in some small way.I'm done.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 15, 2016, 02:51:41 am
content: Quote from: wilfred on February 15, 2016, 02:13:18 amI know you know thatBTW, I have nothing wrong with you holding your viewpoint of course, in fact I support your right to hold that view and express your opinion on it. That's cool, just don't expect me to agree with it

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2016, 11:09:36 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on February 14, 2016, 01:48:37 pmYou can put it between the rails of the railways. Nothing is going to touch them, and they are usually not shaded. The concept is the same, awful efficiency, but slightly better, because you dont need protective layers. It is still a bad idea, if you ask me.There is approximately (wiki) 10 million m2space between the rails in the Netherlands. The solar roadway doesnt need to be full speed bullshit. There is plenty of space everywhere to put solar panels, people should just use their brains.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 15, 2016, 11:27:05 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on February 14, 2016, 01:48:37 pmNo it's not, but it's strange how the Netherlands managed to cross the 1GW installed solar capacity barrier in 2014, one of the top 20 countries or so. They seems to be doing ok so far.QuoteYes, they can be beside, over, above, the roadways or cycles paths or walkways, all of which are infinitely more reliable solutions with much better payback.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2016, 11:44:13 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on February 15, 2016, 11:27:05 amRoof space is filling up quickly! The problem is most people have small roofs. I might be able to cram a 3kW array of solar panels on my roof where your roof seems to allow for double that amount easely.

author: rrinker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2016, 01:06:48 pm
content: Quote from: NANDBlog on February 15, 2016, 11:09:36 amOther than the strip of grease down the middle of the rails on every railroad track I've even seen. It is otherwise fairly well protected, bot the panels will quickly get very dirty.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2016, 02:29:51 pm
content: Quote from: jancumps on February 13, 2016, 04:38:23 pmYes, many people in France are speaking other languages these days. I am not sure if it's English though.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2016, 06:40:16 pm
content: Quote from: rrinker on February 15, 2016, 01:06:48 pmYou can have a special panel-cleaning train that goes around once a week cleaning/polishing them.That's the great thing about railroads; all the dimensions are very exact so you can do stuff like that.(Just make sure there's no chains hanging down underneath the freight trains....it would only takeonebad train to do hundreds of millions of $$$ in damage)

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2016, 07:06:40 pm
content: Quote from: rrinker on February 15, 2016, 01:06:48 pmAFAIK there are no trains in the NL left which let everything from the toilet drop on the rails. This was a bit awkward in the old days. When you flushed the toilets a hatch at the bottom of the toilet bowl would open and you could see the tracks! Ofcourse you wheren't supposed to use the toilet at stations but sometimes the call of nature was too strong! Still a defect from a train could do a lot of damage. I'm not sure how this works with maintenance. Every now and then the tracks need to be lifted to add extra ballast; remember the NL is a swamp so everything sinks into the ground. The solar panels would make the maintenance work impossible.

author: rrinker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2016, 07:21:43 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on February 15, 2016, 07:06:40 pmIt's not even the no longer used direct dump toilets - the grease and grime from the traction motor gears and the wheel bearings of the cars leaves a black strip down the middle of the rails. And yes, there's no way anything solid between the rails would eb compatible with the maintenance operations of cleaning the ballast, replacing ties, or just tamping the ballast. Every bit if not more impractical than roads.

author: Falkra
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2016, 07:34:46 pm
content: I'm french, and in my opinion this is indeed... what you said about it in the video.This is another very expensive project, and...

author: edy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2016, 03:24:29 am
content: Now that we are in the age of EMOTICONs, I vote to add theEMOJI to our Message Post editor. Combined together with thewe don't have to even spell it out....

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2016, 06:24:17 am
content: According to the French government, it's too late now to avoid 'climate chaos'http://www.mrctv.org/videos/french-foreign-minister-says-we-have-500-days-avoid-climate-chaos

author: nwvlab
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2016, 07:49:28 am
content: Quote from: zapta on February 16, 2016, 06:24:17 amAhh, now I get why they are pursuing the solar-roadway option, instead of a serious one: the climate is already screwed up, so who cares if we are actually doing more damage?

author: bitslice
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2016, 07:16:51 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on February 15, 2016, 01:35:21 amNope, people don't work that way, in England if you swear they instantly regard you as a bit thick, in that if you can't communicate in a controlled manner then you probably can't think logically either. Whatever you say is just dismissed.Although people then quote Stephen Fry as a counter to this, the reaction is pretty universal.(and Fry is a hypocritical poser because he never swears on camera himself)If swearing actually created a positive emotional response then Hitler would have used it.It's not a matter of Political Correctness, it's a matter of child friendly forums.It's a default position for moderation - if the post content is not suitable for a child, then it's probably not suitable for an adult either.Quote from: EEVblog on February 15, 2016, 01:06:34 ambit.ly is banned because it could link to a malicious page, and the moderator will still check out the video regardless. I wouldn't click on a bit.ly regardless.Personally if I want something I'm passionate about to reach a wide audience then I'd consider how to market that idea. If my presentation style gets me banned from every single forum outside of this one, then I'd just be preaching to the choir. That's great for my ego, but a fail by any other criteria.Maybe that's why some English people use sarcasm, they don't wish to be rude, but they do want to imply that the other person is an idiot.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2016, 07:45:58 pm
content: This is likely a way for the ruling party to channel taxpayer money to their supporters. So the scheme is likely targeting taxpayers, by means of government spending, its acontrol fraud.just be glad they are not starting and fighting endless wars, thats the traditional way to make lots of money fast without adult supervision.QuoteYes, thats exactly what they do.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2016, 07:57:50 pm
content: Most railways in Europe are electrified, with support towers every few meters to hold the busbar and the power supply cable, along with trackside control cabling. It would be easy to place an extra tower as support, and a tie bar on top attached to the standard one, to hold a lattice frame structure that is positioned well above the electric rail and supply, which you can use to hold solar panels on at an appropriate angle. You already have the power cabling there for the train, so all that is needed is an appropriate inverter to convert the panel output to something the train uses voltage wise. If the train uses AC then you can feed back into the grid with no extra equipment, or if DC then you are using solar power to operate trains instead, or you need to upgrade the power supply for the rails so they can act either as power supplies or as inverters to the grid, depending on the voltage on the rail. Would also allow regenerative braking to return power to the grid instead of being dissipated in voltage regulator modules if the train dumping energy is the only one on the particular segment.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2016, 09:15:18 pm
content: The wind loading of the large solar panels in close proximity to all that high voltage and rapidly moving trains- not good unless I am not seeing something important. Sure, if the structures were already really strong, maybe.. but...Earthquake prone areas, definitely not a good idea....Quote

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 16, 2016, 10:27:20 pm
content: uote author=bitslice link=topic=62965.msg870980#msg870980 date=1455650211]Nope, people don't work that wayAnd your experience in the field of psychology is?Got data to prove that using the word "bullshit" in a debunking video has an actual large detrimental effect?QuoteWrong, it's a matter of me doing and saying what I want onmychannel.QuoteSounds like a shitty forum.QuoteExaggerating a tad you think?

author: drussell
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2016, 11:07:22 pm
content: Quote from: cdev on February 16, 2016, 07:45:58 pmPrecisely! Over and over andoverandoveragain! What a sham!(cough) Batteroo...

author: drussell
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2016, 11:36:22 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on February 16, 2016, 10:27:20 pmWhile I agree with you, Dave that it isyourchannel and you can run it how you see fit and you may say whatever you want...ANDI will try to defend your right to say whatever you want no matterwhat, whenever and wherever I can...(I firmly believe that is a very important thing foreveryone,everywhere, to do...)Quote from: bitslice on February 16, 2016, 07:16:51 pmI must also agree with bitslice on this one...I lament the fact that while, for example, my nephews are showing real, budding, interest in electronics and I wouldloveto introduce them to your channel because it has all sorts of meaningful, insightful and educational content, it is going to unfortunately be many years yet before I can in good conscience point them to your channel due mainly, simply, to your profanity. When they get older, sure, but for now it's going to have to be things like the Periodic Table of Videos with Professor Poliakoff. He gets all his points across with exceptionally good diction and masterful exploitation of the english language (as do many others on YouTube) without ever needing to resort to profanity and vulgarity to attempt to make a point.It's just simply not going to fly with their family (who actually monitors their internet consumption as I believe any good parent should) or myself personally, and for that I am sorry and regretful but there's really nothingIcan do to change that situation to help introduce inquiring young minds to that which we've known for so long. (Ireallywish I could find all my old 1970-80sForrest M. Mims IIIbooks from many years ago to give them...)I realize sensibilities are a tad different "down undah'" where you are but you must also always realize you have a global audience and anything you can do to helpthe rest of usintroduce your stuff to others as widely as possible reallybenefits us all...Just my two cents, take it as you may...

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 16, 2016, 11:42:38 pm
content: Quote from: drussell on February 16, 2016, 11:36:22 pmThere are countless other channels out there.I can't be all things to all people, nor do I try to be, I'm simply, well, me. There are countless kids who watch my channel, and countless parents who let them, so I can't be doing that bad.Bullshit is pretty much the worst profanity I come out with, and it's not that often.

author: lowimpedance
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2016, 12:06:56 am
content: "Bullshit" ... is nothing compared to what gets used by 'kids' out in public/ school etc these days . Take a ride on public transport and just listen to a group of younger ones talking.The whole issue over this one 'profane' example smells a bit like .....well like an amorphous bovine desposit.

author: bitslice
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2016, 12:12:53 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on February 16, 2016, 10:27:20 pmSwearing is used as a coping mechanism, but the listener experiences stress as a result. Every culture has linguistic taboos and every culture reacts negatively to such transgressions.QuoteIn marketing terms, yes - nobody apart from a handful of forums have linked to the video, compare that to the mass coverage of "Solar Freakin' Roadways". One commented that the presentation was like being waterboarded.I could have got it linked on a much bigger forum than this but I got banned for trying. I dare say other people have taken one look at the clip picture and gone elsewhere for data.Empirically, as an English person, swearing is right up there with our class system as a means to separate people who all look the same. I gather Americans derive the same taboos from their more religious culture.Of course this is hypocritical because we swear all the time, but hypocrisy is the nature of man.QuoteI was merely responding to your assertion that not swearing would be pandering to the politically correct crowd, when that's not the reason people are suggesting there are issues with this video.I've seen SJW's, anti-fascist thugs and politicly correct Neo-feminists on Youtube, and they swear all the time.Yes it's your channel, but who are you talking to here - we already agree with you.But when it comes to debating this in a wider world you've unfortunately lumbered the video with baggage that makes it toxic to lay people.Really this is maybe you helping us to help you?

author: drussell
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2016, 12:14:49 am
content: Quote from: lowimpedance on February 17, 2016, 12:06:56 amOh, I agree completely, but that doesn't mean we encourage it..I'm basically just saying think twice before you speak or put "No Bullshit Packaging" on your multimeter box.Do I think kids don'tknowthese words? Of course not!Do we really need to stoop to elementary-kid-schoolyard or barnyard-language-level to get our point across?I most certainly hope not.I, for one, find that neither liberating or refreshing.

author: rrinker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2016, 12:20:24 am
content: PG rated moves have worse language than what Dave comes out with. One F bomb in nearly 900 (or is it more than 900 if you count the second channel?) videos is a pretty darn good ratio of NOT swearing.It's all well and good to try to protect kids from exposure to such language, but unless you follow them everywhere and have some sort of automatic filtering headphones on them at all times, it's just not possible. If the child in question is 6 or older, guarantee he's heard "bullshit" many many times. I'll never forget, my first day of kindergarten, I wasn't even 5 yet, sitting at the dinner table with my Mom and Dad, and I had a question I just had to ask my Dad. I had heard the older kids on the school bus use a word that I didn't know. So my innocent little self blurts out "Dad, what does 'fuck' mean?" My Mom tried to look shocked while not laughing, my Dad was doing a poor job of trying to remain serious and not laugh out loud. Once you have kids, you realize just how hard this is, when your kid does something you don't really want to encourage yet it's insanely hilarious to an adult.Really, 'bullshit' is about a mild as it gets. Perhaps "male bovine excrement" is politically correct, but it's not nearly as good a descriptor for stupid ideas.

author: rich
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2016, 01:04:38 am
content: Quote from: bitslice on February 17, 2016, 12:12:53 amSo you won't be invoking the class system by calling anyone plebs then?Quote from: bitslice on February 14, 2016, 07:01:51 pmHow is the view from your ivory tower now?Language is all about context. The context of Dave's channel is pretty clear edutainment hosted by that crazy aussie bloke, "bullshit" is part of that vocabulary. If you go posting it to other channels, then that's your editorial decision not Dave's. If your mission is to affectthataudience and you don't think Dave's material is suitable, then go create your own. It doesn't look like Dave is losing sleep over not reaching them.On a uk offensiveness scale, I doubt the BBC would use "bullshit" pre-watershed whereas they do occasionally use the word "crap" on BBC Radio 4 during the day and get away with it. So, yes, bullshit raises the stakes from "crap" and a tamer version would be "bull" but as I said before, I think it works fine with Dave's on-screen persona.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2016, 01:18:24 am
content: In my experience some people get really upset when you swear so I try to feel the water before using too strong wording. In many cases swearing doesn't help to get a point across either. IMHO many people unfamiliar with EEVblog and Dave's style will see the video as an amusing rant from some Aussie bloke instead of a serious attempt to explain the shortcomings of the solar road idea. But maybe it isn't more than a rant because there are several assumptions made in the video as well. For example the life expectancy being low and maintenance costs being excessive; without (f)actual numbers it is just the word from one against the otherAll opinion remember.

author: HackedFridgeMagnet
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2016, 03:42:30 am
content: I'm with Dave on this, don't pander to how people say you should be, just be yourself.Swearing is not really bad, but being mean and horrible to people and things is bad.Some people get the two mixed up.not that Dave is anything like Tony just trying to make a point that being yourself is the best way to go.I remember Tony Abott was so over coached and over prepared when he confronted media he often looked like a complete dill.He was concentrating on the script and not on what was really happening and so did weird things like: eating a raw brown onion with the skin; and becoming mute on camera for about 30 seconds while attempting to answer a question.Actually come to think of it, he did weird things off script too, like knighting the Queens husband.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 17, 2016, 03:51:50 am
content: Quote from: rrinker on February 17, 2016, 12:20:24 amExactly.The Martian for example, contains one or two F bombs, a word I haveneverused on my channel. The book has more.That movie and book is something I would want every kid on the planet to watch and read, and it's worse than my videos.

author: bitslice
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2016, 04:01:33 am
content: Quote from: rich on February 17, 2016, 01:04:38 amI like the word "plebs"the view is splendid old beanQuoteYes of course, I'm just pointing out a moderation issue on other forums that he may not have been aware of.If he's happy with just us lot then that's fine too.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 17, 2016, 04:01:54 am
content: Quote from: bitslice on February 17, 2016, 12:12:53 amSo, zero experience, got it.QuoteIn marketing terms, yes - nobody apart from a handful of forums have linked to the video, compare that to the mass coverage of "Solar Freakin' Roadways". One commented that the presentation was like being waterboarded.I could have got it linked on a much bigger forum than this but I got banned for trying. I dare say other people have taken one look at the clip picture and gone elsewhere for data.And guess who's Solar Freaking roadways debunking videos got plastered everywhere, Thunderf00t's and mine. I'm pretty sure Thunderf00t averages more BS's per debunking video than me.My original video "EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!" has 412k views. Thunderf00t's has about the same. Note that mine has BULLSHIT in the title, Tunderf00t's has the more PC "Solar Roadways: Busted!"So much for your hypothesis.Getting it linked on a forum or not amounts to a hill of beans in terms of views.QuoteAnd precisely where any argument ends.Look, if I feel pressured into "toning down" my content or doing or saying anything other than want I naturally want to do and say, then that's it, I'd rather give it all up. Seriously.When I hear arguments like this about my content, it actually has the opposite effect on me, if anything it discourages me from wanting to continue to produce content.Be careful what you wish for.

author: bitslice
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2016, 04:26:32 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on February 17, 2016, 04:01:54 amM'kay, I'm not making or seeking an argument with you, yet you always jump straight to being offended.QuoteI'm not making an argument about your content, I'm relating what happened.I do not write the moderation policy of other forums or why they imagine that kids have never heard swear words before.Nobody is picking on you personally.If you want to argue to toss about whether people in other countries don't like swearing or not, go for it, but honestly I've made all the points I think are relevant to the topic.If you like swearing in your videos, do more of it.It doesn't matter to me what happens next or how you want to react.

author: jancumps
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 17, 2016, 05:18:15 am
content: Quote from: bitslice on February 17, 2016, 12:12:53 amWhat forum was that?

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2016, 11:15:20 am
content: Quote from: bitslice on February 16, 2016, 07:16:51 pmNot really true.The problem isuncontrolledswearing. If the only adjective you know is "fucking" and you use it in every sentence then yes, you're regarded as a bit thick (rightly so!)eg. If the title of this thread was "French Wattway Solar Roadways are fucking BULLSHIT" that would be bad.(see the difference)But yes, the Brits are a lot more sensitive about the actual words. In the USA/Australia you could call a TV series "Bullshit!" and get away with it. Not in the UK.It's not that they're prudes, they just know instinctively that there's abetterway. eg. Basil Fawlty would have used a lot of swear words if that program had been made in a different country. In the UK he didn't, and he's a lot funnier because of it.(now I'm showing my age - Modern day equivalents would be shows like Celebrity Juice - that guy's a master of talking about very very bad things without using bad words and in a way that makes them hilarious).Quote from: bitslice on February 16, 2016, 07:16:51 pmBeing able to turn swearing on and off at will is a sign of intelligence, yes.(Or any other part of your language center, eg. your accent, your level of vocabulary...)

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 17, 2016, 11:51:59 am
content: Quote from: bitslice on February 17, 2016, 04:26:32 amDon't confuse offence with simply describing how I view things.Also, let me clue you into a little bit more about why bloggers like myself can often be mistaken as being "offended" or being too harsh etc when responding to comments like this:An individual may suggest something, or ask something, or criticise something or whatever, and they think it's just their one voice, no big deal, right?. Well, the blogger on the other hand, particularly successful ones that get say 75,000 views per day,every day, with goodness knows how many comments, has almost certainly seen this exact comment, argument, suggestion, criticism etc expressed (by the magic of statistics)hundredsof times. It tends to grate.BTW, I changed the title of the video and the blog URL the other day in case you hadn't noticed. You can now link it those lame forums that ban the word. You're welcome.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 17, 2016, 12:01:38 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on February 17, 2016, 11:15:20 amI do highly recommend Penn & Teller: Bullshit!https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penn_%26_Teller:_Bullshit!Should be required watching for all kids.Penn is the dropper of more F bombs than any man alive I think if you follow his work. Yet everyone loves him, because, well, he's cool.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2016, 12:17:16 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on February 17, 2016, 12:01:38 pmAnd adults.

author: rrinker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2016, 01:07:00 pm
content: on Penn & Teller, those guys are great.

author: timb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2016, 02:17:34 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on February 17, 2016, 12:01:38 pmFor sure!In fact, I think the episodes "Sex, Sex, Sex" (Season 1) and "The War on Porn" (Season 6) should be mandatory required viewing for 6 year olds everywhere....(In reality, I do think it's appropriate viewing for *teenagers* but maybe not kids. I mean, at 13 most are already voracious consumers of porn thanks to the Internet (and puberty). Most teens also swear. A lot. I know I did! In fact, a teacher once caught me swearing and said I shouldn't do that, because swearing means you have a small vocabulary, to which I replied, "It's a fucking colloquialism, bitch.")

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2016, 02:56:12 pm
content: Quote from: timb on February 17, 2016, 02:17:34 pmMandatory? Everywhere? Is this the new 'I think it's useful'?

author: mikerj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2016, 05:00:12 pm
content: Quote from: bitslice on February 17, 2016, 12:12:53 amThat's bullshit.Swearing can be used in many different contexts. Hopefully no-one will judge the rest of the UK members by your over-sensitivity.

author: bitslice
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2016, 08:23:19 pm
content: Quote from: mikerj on February 17, 2016, 05:00:12 pmThat's not my "over-sensitivity", I just looked up some psychological paper on the effect of swearing and that's basically what it said. It also reduces the reaction to pain.An under researched topic apparently.

author: djacobow
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2016, 09:37:11 pm
content: Great video, and I have no problem with bullshit or even the occasional F-bomb.I love swear words. They give an indication of emphasis in one word that you might otherwise need a paragraph to convey. Some stuff is so F-ing wrong, some people are so full of bullsh*t, that to use any other word is giving them too much credit.And as for protecting the ears of the little ones, FFS, they're just words.It's true, some people will not listen to a tirade with cursing. Mostly those are the same people who will avoid tirades with facts. There's no helping them.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 17, 2016, 09:48:45 pm
content: Quote from: timb on February 17, 2016, 02:17:34 pmYes, I don't mean I'd show it to Sagan. But hit high school...

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2016, 09:57:33 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on February 17, 2016, 09:48:45 pmRegarding pron: when they are interested they are interested. Before puberty kids aren't interested in it anyway. An interesting test is the picture below. Small kids will see dolphins:

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 17, 2016, 10:23:00 pm
content: Quote from: bitslice on February 17, 2016, 12:12:53 amBecause I use the word bullshit once at the end of a 15 minute minute video?Don't think you're overreacting just a tad?

author: timb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2016, 10:28:01 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on February 17, 2016, 09:48:45 pmYeah, exactly. If I had a kid, 15-16 is about when I'd show it to them (maybe a tad earlier, depending on their maturity). Not even because of the content, mind you, I'd just want to make sure they could fully comprehend it and be able to discuss it with them afterwards.Quote from: nctnico on February 17, 2016, 09:57:33 pmWhat does it mean when I instantly see tiny dolphins jumping around a naked woman being gently caressed?

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2016, 10:42:38 pm
content: Quote from: bitslice on February 17, 2016, 08:23:19 pmYes it is.Quote from: bitslice on February 17, 2016, 08:23:19 pmIf you saw a psychology paper that said:QuoteThen you know right there that it's bullshit. At best you could say swearingcanbe used as a coping mechanism.PS: Psychology papers? 99% waffle/bullshit. Sigmund Freud, the most famous psychologist in history? Wrong about almost everything.QuoteSo does singing ... or anything else that distracts the brain.

author: edy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2016, 11:05:51 pm
content: What about this product on the shelves of my local supermarket:http://www.amazon.ca/Holy-Crap-Breakfast-Cereal-Ounce/dp/B00BOXHMG2It may not be Bull $4!t but it is close enough. Crap better substitute? Bullcrap? How does crap fare on the profanity scale?

author: JohnMoosenl
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: February 18, 2016, 07:38:46 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on February 14, 2016, 11:30:50 amIts becoming a serious nuisance on land too with these ugly wind mills.

author: mux
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2016, 10:59:04 am
content: The main reason for putting wind turbines off-shore isn't public perception, but generating potential (and consistency). You get 10-15 percentage points higher capacity factor offshore, and you can fit 8-10MW turbines there, whereas on land you're limited to 2-3MW typically (which is more expensive in operation).

author: JohnMoosenl
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: February 18, 2016, 01:16:05 pm
content: Quote from: mux on February 18, 2016, 10:59:04 amSea or land, the problem of intermittent wind stays the same. Its gonna be unreliable at best.In the end putting them off shore means a lot more corrosion, difficulty in building (sea depth), damage due to storms and more cost in repair and maintenance (think shipping/helicopters and the need for calm seas).

author: bitslice
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2016, 07:25:36 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on February 17, 2016, 10:42:38 pmWhateverthis was a moderation problem, nothing to do with me - everyone but you seems to understand this.QuoteI didn't realise you'd demand a copy of the entire paper rather than my one line summaryQuoteM'kayQuotePoint being?

author: mux
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2016, 03:05:08 pm
content: Quote from: JohnMoosenl on February 18, 2016, 01:16:05 pmAgain, this is not actually how it goes in reality. The single dominant cost and reliability factor for putting wind turbines offshore is power distribution. Corrosion, building, damage due to storms is just not an issue. These are solved engineering problems and due to the good scaling of wind energy they're still more cost effective than onshore.Of course capacity factor is always going to be an issue, but that's just the reality of centralized power generation. Natural gas plants have similar capacity factors in practice. This is not an issue; you solve this through other engineering means. In the end the question is: with all this engineering cost, is it cost competitive?

author: FrankBuss
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 23, 2016, 01:29:30 pm
content: Don't know if it was already mentioned in this forum, but if you generate solar cell power, you can get money for free:http://solarcoin.orgIt's like Bitcoin, but instead of wasting power for Bitcoin mining rigs, it rewards you for using solar power, only, and you are still free to use the power for what you want. The idea is a positive feeback: If more people are using Solarcoin as money to buy things, or even just convert it to Bitcoin with other people buying it because they believe in the idea, it gets worth more, and the incentive to build more solar cell generators gets higher for a better world.Interview with the founder Nick Gogerty, by singularity podcaster Nikola Danaylov:But I guess it still wouldn't make the french solar roadway profitable, if they register it

author: AndyC_772
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2016, 05:21:11 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on February 17, 2016, 12:01:38 pmAll 8 seasons on DVD, just arrived from Ebay

author: wizpip
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2016, 07:04:42 pm
content: +1 for swearing. I don't think it detracts from the arguments at hand.Tried to put a video in, but it didn't go to the right time index, doh! 'Brits' aren't sensitive to swearing. After 9pm on TV you can say whatever you want, to the surprise of many foreign guests.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2016, 07:56:24 pm
content: Quote from: wizpip on February 24, 2016, 07:04:42 pmWe also have swearing here, in certain districts of our cities, all day.

author: Romain
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 13, 2016, 01:18:05 am
content: Dave, some innovation (in the good way?) from Australia about solar energy:Do you think you could find some time to pay them a visit?

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 24, 2016, 11:04:15 pm
content: French article:http://www.techniques-ingenieur.fr/actualite/articles/2000-euros-route-solaire-normandie-segolene-royal-37483/Colas Solar Road costs €2000sqm, not including road surface prep!20 times the installed cost of a commercial solar system.Translated:Quote

author: HackedFridgeMagnet
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2016, 11:32:55 pm
content: but hey, for €2000 they'll throw in the equivalent of a square metre of ashpalt.

author: Miles Teg
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 27, 2016, 09:03:51 am
content: Recent article with a video:http://positivr.fr/colas-routes-solaires-france-2-2/Installation seems more serious than the US version, but... do the maths men...

author: Miles Teg
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 27, 2016, 09:55:17 am
content: http://www.wattwaybycolas.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/Wattway-DP-GB-June2016.pdfEnglish version of press kit.With some interview samples of some, i thought, serious people.

author: StuUK
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 27, 2016, 10:27:44 am
content: Quote from: Miles Teg on October 27, 2016, 09:55:17 amI can certainly imagine the idealistic conditions they did their truck tests with. Steady straight line, constant speed, kind of like the ice road truckers going over those lakes, steady as she goes..... What about the high speed blowouts, the odd crash, something heavy/sharp falling off the back etc... Eventually after spending stupid money proving its not-viable it will fade into obscurity and they will move on....

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 01, 2016, 05:36:00 am
content: Oh gee, it's not viable, who would have thought?http://www.pv-magazine.com/news/details/beitrag/frances-solar-road-international-solar-experts-give-their-analysis_100027057/#axzz4RNwbFzkY

author: void_error
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 01, 2016, 06:05:16 am
content: I'm wondering why didn't they go small scale first and replace a door mat with a solar panel and see it doesn't work, then ditch the solar roadway idea from the start. At least a door mat won't have trucks drive over it.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 01, 2016, 08:58:34 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on December 01, 2016, 05:36:00 amFrom the article:QuoteQuoteThose were almost exactly the first two sentences my engineer wife told me when I mentioned this to her a while ago.But the insanity must press on:Quote

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 02, 2016, 12:54:06 am
content: Read the article.Are we surprised?

author: Lockon Stratos
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 24, 2016, 01:30:15 pm
content: http://arstechnica.com/cars/2016/12/worlds-first-solar-road-opens-in-france/

author: jancumps
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 13, 2017, 11:41:23 am
content: Quote from: Lockon Stratos on December 24, 2016, 01:30:15 pmhttps://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-850-french-wattway-solar-roadways-bullshit/?action=dlattach;attach=284939;image

author: WastelandTek
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2017, 03:09:42 am
content: sigh...here we go againhttp://www.bbc.com/news/av/technology-40805733/could-solar-roads-help-generate-electricity

author: drussell
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2017, 07:11:36 am
content: Is there somewhere on the BBC website where you can answer the question in their headline with a resounding "NO!" ? ? ?

author: Domagoj T
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2017, 12:44:44 pm
content: Quote from: drussell on August 10, 2017, 07:11:36 amNo need for that.Betteridge has already done that.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betteridge%27s_law_of_headlinesJust a short quote from Wikipedia article, by Andrew Marr:Quote

author: grumpydoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2017, 01:18:09 pm
content: At least the WattWay only wants to light a few streetlights, not melt snow or illuminate the road with fairy lights.It's still a stupid amount to pay for modest power output.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 10, 2017, 02:47:37 pm
content: Quote from: grumpydoc on August 10, 2017, 01:18:09 pmIt's like chalk and cheese. WattWay are a real road engineering company and have done their best to make a viable solar road.Solar Roadways on the other hand with all it's wankery is just a joke from utterly clueless and delusional people who don't have one ounce of practical engineering consideration in their brain.QuoteYep. Even with probably the best company in the world doing it, with surely the most practical implementation possible, it's still a dumb and essentially impractical idea compared to regular solar.

author: Specmaster
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2017, 10:36:24 pm
content: According to the BBC TV programme "Click", there's a company that is working to develop this solar roadway into a system that recharges electric cars while they drive along it as well and apparently there is a new type of solar cell that is only about 3mm thick and is bonded onto a steel plate, so this may not be as dumb as it sounds after all. I for one am keeping an open mind on this, after all, space travel a few years was thought to be impossible let alone put a man on the moon and people fell about laughing at the thought of it, BUT it has happened. While Dave is able to debunk this with technology we are currently aware of, may be tomorrow there could be a break through into new technology that could make it a reality?

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 15, 2017, 03:58:36 am
content: Quote from: Specmaster on August 14, 2017, 10:36:24 pmAlways a possibility - but unless there is something intrinsically tied to the format, you need to broaden your thinking.Any improvement in solar technology that could make the roadways ideaseemviable would also translate into more cost effective NON road solar.For example (just using arbitrary numbers for this exercise...) let's say a solar roadway solution were to cost $10 per (whatever unit you want to use) and a solar farm $1. Getting the solar roadway solution down to $1 per whatever doesn't make it viable - because the solar farm alternative will then come in at 10 cents, having benefited from the same technological advances.If somebody wants to push the solar road idea, then I'm happy to let them have a go, but not with public funding - unless there is a true, identifiable engineering benefit. (I wait to be amazed ... but I'm not holding my breath.)Political agendas, hype, marketing and vested interests don't count.

author: Specmaster
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2017, 06:46:33 am
content: Well that's why I said I was keeping an open mind on it. Maybe they can see other advantages / spinoffs from it that could make it viable and that is why this test track has been built. Time will tell.Sent from my SM-J510FN using Tapatalk

author: jonovid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2017, 07:31:38 am
content: Quote from: Brumby on August 15, 2017, 03:58:36 amI suspect that the people behind this type of project, are secretly pushing Political agendas, hype, marketing and vested interests.like scientology's E-meter it works, but is it a toy?on the positive side of the argument.they are many applications where embedded solar road tiles in part of a highway may just be the best solution to the problem of powering illuminated LED road side marking like cat's eye's , illuminated road signs & Emergency phones on remote highways,where underground power cable costs are prohibitive given the long distances.

author: FloFo
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2017, 08:57:56 am
content: Quote from: jonovid on August 15, 2017, 07:31:38 amIf you already have the signs, why not put the solar cell on top of it (giving shade for the sign at the same time, increasing visibility). I know this is already done for off-grid sensor stations or park ticket vending systems, just use an existing solar technology on top of the pole you have to install anyways, cheaper and more efficient and no research in new, robust, non glare, non-slippery but still efficient solar cells needed ...

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2017, 12:30:36 pm
content: Quote from: jonovid on August 15, 2017, 07:31:38 amThere areNOapplications where putting a piece of glass in a road surface is better than putting it on a stick at the side of the road.Quote from: jonovid on August 15, 2017, 07:31:38 amCats eyes are powered by car headlamps, not electricity.Quote from: jonovid on August 15, 2017, 07:31:38 amPhones which are powered, how...?

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 15, 2017, 01:37:22 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on August 15, 2017, 12:30:36 pmThis.Although, I can imagine that aesthetics might be the only reason.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2017, 03:22:20 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on August 15, 2017, 01:37:22 pmAlso: "Politics"

author: grumpydoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2017, 04:15:21 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on August 15, 2017, 12:30:36 pmThose were installed locally a good few years back - the local low-life population stole the lot of them out of the road.While they lasted they wereveryimpressive, but obviously not thief-proof enough.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2017, 05:28:13 pm
content: Quote from: grumpydoc on August 15, 2017, 04:15:21 pmI thought they were everywhere in the UK. I remember them being very useful when driving along country roads at night.Have the Romanians started stealing those as well?

author: grumpydoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2017, 06:15:52 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on August 15, 2017, 05:28:13 pmCat's eyes, yes.It's very noticeable when I drive in France that roads here do not have them.But a while ago (several years) a test installation was made of some LED versions which reacted to vehicle headlight - I think that the power source was actually solar, not headlights, but they were a good bit brighter than normal cats eyes and very effective.They all disappeared.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2017, 07:20:15 pm
content: They have not been nicked here, and they are very effective. Solar powered yes, but with optics that mean the very bright LED light is directed almost all in one narrow cone down the road, and there are 2 emitters in the encapsulated block as well, one for forward and one back, so you have a white centre line with a red line behind you, and yellow and red edge markers on the dual carriageway. Small and with what looks like a really effective lens assembly as well concentrating the ambient sunlight onto a small solar cell, and then probably a lithium cell for energy storage. When the battery is getting low they change mode, from having a 200Hz or so pulse mode to having a 1Hz flashing mode to conserve power till daylight. They do light from sunset to sunrise though.Still want to find one to take apart, but they are epoxied into the roadway itself in a casing.

author: mikerj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2017, 10:54:10 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on August 15, 2017, 05:28:13 pmNot everywhere, lots of the smaller "B" roads or uncategorised roads don't have cats eyes.I suspect grumpdoc is talking about the solar powered "active" cat's eyes that were introduced on some roads which actually had LEDs in them. Quite an odd driving experience at night on an empty road, it's like something out of Tron.

author: HackedFridgeMagnet
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2017, 11:02:40 pm
content: Quote from: grumpydoc on August 15, 2017, 06:15:52 pmMaybe they were made by the Brusaws and are already past EOL. (3 months)

author: grumpydoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 16, 2017, 08:24:47 am
content: Quote from: mikerj on August 15, 2017, 10:54:10 pmIndeed, excellent description.

author: drussell
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2018, 04:16:09 pm
content: Thunderf00t's latest update on data from the Wattway and SolarFreakinRoadways...

author: Domagoj T
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 23, 2018, 07:19:39 pm
content: Among the solar roads, this thread seems to be the most recently active...This is about the Colas road in France.They have released the data for the 1 km road, 420 kW installation, and it doesn't look good.https://arstechnica.com/science/2018/09/solar-panels-replaced-tarmac-on-a-motorway-here-are-the-results/Long story short, ten times the cost per kW installed, one third the output.

author: Jef06
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: July 24, 2019, 09:17:36 pm
content: Failure confirmed (how surprising!), The solar panels will be removed by the end of the year...https://www.20minutes.fr/planete/2570759-20190724(Please note: article is in French)

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 25, 2019, 06:30:34 am
content: So many emails and message about this, I'm working on another video...

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2019, 07:42:56 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on July 25, 2019, 06:30:34 amThis time try to figure out how and where Colas & Solaroad want to make solar roads commercially viable otherwise it will be just another pointless rant video. Youtube already has enough ranters as it is.

author: orion242
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 25, 2019, 10:16:05 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on July 25, 2019, 07:42:56 pmAlternate universe clearly.

author: wilfred
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2019, 12:57:32 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on July 25, 2019, 07:42:56 pmThere is no such thing as a pointless rant video. You just need to be clear about the point. I just did a search on "Thunderfoot roadway" and he's made over a dozen rant videos about this subject. Why?I'll leave it to you do decide which is morepointless, the roads or the videos.