How did you clean up/ debloat windows 10? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Beamin
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2019, 09:45:10 pm
content: I hate how on windows you are no longer in control of it updating or even the programs on it. I don't need xbox and I'm sure 99% of windows machines especially those at work don't need an xbox app. I actually bought an xbox1 but took it back because I spent more time updating it then playing it and having to give up my basic human legal rights in the terms of service to update the god damn controller. The controller not only needs an update but I can't sue? Officially out of control. What happened to the days of Nintendo with a d pad a and b? Sure it wasn't as cool but I didn't have to hire an attorney to use it. God only knows what you agree to in windows 10.Anyways what do you guys think of this?https://youtu.be/q4ziE5Am0pMIs there an easy way too take off the crap without having to download anything? This is my only computer so if I screw it up im SOL. Besides going in and deselecting or clicking every privacy option there is are there other ways windows can spy on you? I can handle my phone spying on me because I keep sensitive info off it, but my computer I don't have a choice. You know when you have to call capital one after you sign up to not have your info sold or the hand written letter you have to send to bank of America?

author: Beamin
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2019, 11:36:21 pm
content: There are 52 processes running like skype cortana and the store and I have only opened 2 applications edge and notepad. This would probably be a fast computer with good battery if it wasn't for this stuff. Why is this and how do you know what bloat ware and whats needed?

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2019, 11:37:15 pm
content: Quote from: Beamin on March 15, 2019, 11:36:21 pmI always turn off Cortana during the install. It's essentially spyware.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2019, 11:40:30 pm
content: Running a Powershell script from a third party is a very bad idea, unless you're very familiar with Powershell and understand exactly what it does. Just superficially understanding the code isn't really enough, a skilled attacker should be able to obfuscate his intentions well enough.

author: bitseeker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2019, 11:44:54 pm
content: Hardcore debloating and performance optimization takes lots of research and, preferably, a test machine to experiment on or at least a full backup that you can use to recover your computer in case things go terribly wrong.Without a recovery strategy, don't blindly run someone else's script or app. Even commercial apps for "optimizing" your computer can cause havoc.For a less risky debloating,Press the Windows keyTypeApps & featuresClick on the Apps & features itemWait a bit for the list of installed apps to populateReview the listFor any app you don't want, click on it and then click the Uninstall buttonRepeat the previous step for each undesired appNote: Although this is less risky, you could still remove an important library or supporting app. So, be sure you have a current backup before beginning.

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2019, 12:09:31 am
content: ...by installing Windows 7.If you really must have the latest, I hear Server 2019 is relatively bloat-free.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2019, 12:16:42 am
content: Quote from: amyk on March 16, 2019, 12:09:31 amWindows 7 is officially still in support but not for much longer. There are also security issues that Microsoft simply won't fix. It's effectively an obsolete OS at this point.

author: Rerouter
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2019, 12:28:09 am
content: I forget the name of it, but all major windows versions have a OEM configuration DVD, with which you can generate a copy of that flavor of windows with literally thousands of little things you can turn on or off, It runs all the cross checks and builds it into an ISO you can then use as a normal windows install,I would guess windows 10 would be no different, the windows 7 one I came across had an obscene amount of options, Including templates for stripped down to 0 versions with only a command line for windows 7 that became about a 330MB ISO,So there is someone out there with a distribution ISO of windows 10 with none of the crap, just clean and crisp, for the rest of us, It involves a backup, then ripping out chunks until it gets upset, change tact and keep on ripping,

author: IdahoMan
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2019, 02:34:07 am
content: Answer: I got Linux!M$ isn't in the OS market anymore as far as I am concerned.

author: electromotive
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2019, 05:17:12 am
content: Quote from: IdahoMan on March 16, 2019, 02:34:07 amI use MacOS exclusively. My Windows PC only exists for the handful of design programs.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2019, 06:38:56 am
content: I wipe it and install Windows 7 if I need Windows, or Ubuntu if the required software is available for that. I put my computer-illiterate mother on Linux a couple years ago and it has been smooth sailing, she wouldn't have realized it wasn't just a new version of Windows if I hadn't told her. It runs a browser, pdf reader, word processor and spreadsheet and that's all she needs.Win7 is old but IMHO it represents the pinnacle of MS operating system development. Some people fret about security but I'm personally not worried about it in the least, I've had Windows Update turned off for several years now on everything and I've had fewer problems overall than when I was diligent of keeping everything up to date. Being the tech guy in the family I've cleaned up malware on dozens of PCs over the years and the number that were the result of unpatched exploits? Absolutely zero, zilch, none. *Every* single one was the result of the user installing something sketchy, either out of ignorance or because it was cleverly bundled with an installer and they skipped past the fine print too quickly, that's how the two malware infections I've had on my own machines happened and once I became wise to that trick years ago it hasn't happened since.Security patches are very important for outward facing systems, servers that are exposed to the wide open internet. For the average PC though you've got a firewall and NAT in almost all cases and the system is not externally exposed, not infallible by any means but nothing is. Use an up to date browser, run NoScript and AdBlock at all times, don't go to sketchy sites, don't download sketchy stuff, and most importantly, back up any data you don't want to lose. Security comes from user practices, not Microsoft patching the OS, and for the typical home PC the updates just aren't that important except to those who have a vested interest in selling new software or just can't help parroting hysteria. Frankly I see Windows Update as far more of a threat than malware ever since Microsoft started abusing it in their heavy handed attempt to force Windows 10 on everybody. I've had to fix more than one machine that got hosed by the update process, wouldn't have been any worse off if a virus infection had required a complete reformat and reinstall.

author: TERRA Operative
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2019, 06:42:38 am
content: I use this:https://www.winprivacy.de/english-home/Followed by this:https://winaero.com/comment.php?comment.news.1836Then my Onedrive removal script:https://github.com/TERRAOperative/OneDrive-UninstallerWorks great across multiple machines so far.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2019, 06:54:41 am
content: Quote from: electromotive on March 16, 2019, 05:17:12 amMy work issued laptop is a Macbook Pro and I quite like the OS. The hardware is nicely built too but sadly the machine is severely crippled by form over function fashion decisions. It's much thinner than it has to be, so thin in fact that it's a bit awkward to carry. The ports are very limited, nothing at all beyond four USB-C ports and a headphone jack. Battery life is less than impressive, I can't even get through a full day at the office without plugging it in, a problem that could have easily been solved by a few more mm of thickness. The keyboard is crap, the key travel is minuscule resulting in a loud clacking sound and uncomfortable feel. The cooling is inadequate, resulting in rapid thermal throttling under any kind of serious use. The trackpad is absurdly huge to the point that it gets in the way, I find myself using a small patch in the lower right corner, making it 25% the size it is would have been perfectly adequate. The touch bar is a neat gimmick but it's just that, a gimmick, I use it for adjusting the screen brightness, sound volume and taking screenshots, nothing more. Then there's the big deal breaker for me, the RAM and SSD are soldered to the motherboard, zero expandability. Calling it a "Pro" machine is a joke, the models from 10 years ago were far better designs. I like MacOS, despite its flaws the polish and user experience is in a whole different class than Windows, my uptime is more than 200 days now without a single rude interruption from an update and it is still performing flawlessly, not getting slow and glitchy the way Windows does after a month or two without a reboot.If Apple is not going to get their head out of their ass and design some actual pro machines aimed at power users then they should license their OS to run on 3rd party hardware. While it's possible to build a hackintosh, in practice I've found it to be far more screwing around than it's worth for any serious use. You might get it working fine with enough effort but if you ever decide to update to a later version of the OS you could be SOL.

author: rdl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2019, 07:43:09 am
content: I think your only hope is switching to Linux.Windows is no longer an operating system. It's a service designed to make money for Microsoft and they're going to be changing it frequently. Every change/update basically resets the system to the way Microsoft wants it to run. Your preferences are irrelevant.I installed Windows 10 on a test computer late last year just to see how bad it really was. Funny thing is, what ticked me off the most was not the privacy issues, but the extent to which they take over the machine.As an example, there are a ton of "Windows apps" that want to be running all the time despite being mostly useless, and they all want to be sniffing at your data and sharing it between themselves all the time.I couldn't find a simple way to remove all those useless "apps" completely and literally almost threw the computer at the wall out of frustration. I unplugged the machine and haven't started it up since. The next time I do start it, it will be to install Linux of some kind.In my world, the only reason for Windows 10 would be to play a game that I really, really want to play, but won't run on anything else. Everything else I need to do on a computer is either trivial on Linux or works fine on Windows 7.

author: Karel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2019, 07:48:57 am
content: I don't use w10. Not at home and not at work. Except for the wifes notebook, where I installed O&O Shutup10:https://www.oo-software.com/en/shutup10

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2019, 08:52:53 am
content: Quote from: IdahoMan on March 16, 2019, 02:34:07 amYup. I am running Win XP PRO SP3 on my old machine and Linux Mint on my newer machine. No way I am running Win10. No way.But I am facing the same problem MS is facing which is that computing is moving away from computers and into mobile devices. I still only have an old dumb phone which is only good for talking, which is all I need, but my wife has an Android phone and I feel, like with Windows 10, she has totally lost control of her privacy and her info.That is the way the world is going and people don't seem to care.When she upgraded her phone she gave me her old Samsung Galaxy S7 but I saw I need to have an account with Google and the phone is sitting on my desk and I have no intention of using it.Maybe some day in the future we can have an alternative to Android which does not spy on us. In the meanwhile if I need to look up something on the phone I just ask my wife to do it for me.Quote from: rdl on March 16, 2019, 07:43:09 amThe thing is that Linux also has its own set of problems. It is still half baked and needs to boil some more before it's done and ready for a wide audience. It is not quite ready for non-nerd consumers.It seems to me there would be a market for alternatives to Win 10 and to Android which respected privacy and configuration. I think people would be willing to pay for that but it seems both Google and MS make more money selling our info.

author: Karel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2019, 09:28:07 am
content: Quote from: soldar on March 16, 2019, 08:52:53 amThis is exactly why I do like Linux. It's not ready for a wide audience. But it is ready for engineers.This means that Linux is mostly used by engineers, technicians, researchers and otherwise peoplewho know more or less what they are doing. No housewifes, kids or other people for which the OS is justa gateway to the internet or games.

author: stevelup
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2019, 09:46:38 am
content: You could look into Windows 10 IoT / LTSB - I don't think there are legitimate ways of end users getting hold of it though.It is basically Windows 10 with -all- the cruft removed. Literally the only unwanted thing that's installed is One Drive and that can be got rid of with a single GPO.

author: apis
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2019, 12:35:56 pm
content: I like Linux as well, just be aware that it requires a bit of effort to learn a new operating system. It's a bit like learning a new language, it can be frustrating at first. You need to crawl before you can walk, walk before you can run. But it's only a problem for whoever is going to administer the system or do complex things, for casual users there is little difference. My mother actually prefers Ubuntu to Windows, I had to install it for her but I also would have had to install windows for her if it didn't come pre-installed.

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2019, 12:57:32 pm
content: Quote from: apis on March 16, 2019, 12:35:56 pmShe-who-must-be-obeyed appointed me "system administrator" and herself "casual user" and that is the end of that!So I have to spend countless hours discovering and learning things and even wrestling with things that do not work or work very badly. To give an example, Chinese language input in Windows just works with no problems while in Linux I've had to wrestle for hours and still it only half-works. No solution can be found.There are some very basic things which leave a lot to be desired in Linux Mint and it seems the developers are more concerned with developing fancy skins and DUIs than a solid, stable OS. From one version to the next things change and you need to start learning. Kind of like Windows.And Linux Mint gets plenty of updates. I am pretty sure I get on average more than one per day. The difference for me is that they are updates mostly of separate software packages and not of one Big Brother trying to tell me what to do. I do not mind Linux updates because I just download them whenever I want (and IF I want).

author: apis
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2019, 01:50:07 pm
content: Quote from: soldar on March 16, 2019, 12:57:32 pmI've never tried that so I don't know how to do it, but they use Linux in China (and other Asian countries with a logographic script system) so I'm pretty sure it can be made to work well.I found this when googling, maybe it helps:http://ubuntuhandbook.org/index.php/2016/07/2-best-chinese-pinyin-im-ubuntu-16-04/I have no idea if it works though, and the instructions are for Ubuntu!Quote from: soldar on March 16, 2019, 12:57:32 pmThere isn't one set of developers for Linux, the people who develop the kernel are not the same people who are configuring the desktop (that is usually done by the people behind the distributions). How stable it will be also mostly depends on the distribution (and there arehundreds of distributions). I haven't tried Mint yet so I don't have an opinion about it, I'm still using Ubuntu.

author: schmitt trigger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2019, 02:19:05 pm
content: Subscribing to this thread.

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2019, 02:35:15 pm
content: Quote from: apis on March 16, 2019, 01:50:07 pmThere are Chinese distributions of Linux and they, obviously, support Chinese input but I am not about to install a Chinese distribution of Linux. Linux Mint has serious problems with Chinese input while in Windows it works right out of the box with no problems since Win98.Quote from: apis on March 16, 2019, 01:50:07 pmThanks but no thanks. I have already spent way too many hours and got to a point where it sort of works with some workarounds. I do not want to spend any more time on this. I was close to setting my Linux machine on fire to dispose of the problem.As I say, it just shows Linux Mint is sort of half baked and needs some polishing. When you drag an item to the desktop it does not land where you put it but several spaces away. Really? This seems like something pretty basic. It is very annoying. I have plenty of similar complaints.Quote from: apis on March 16, 2019, 01:50:07 pmThat might explain it but does not make it any better or less annoying. Still, as I said, I prefer Linux Mint to Windows 10 and so I am using it.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2019, 05:33:53 pm
content: Quote from: apis on March 16, 2019, 12:35:56 pmYes but if you're coming from WinXP/Vista/7 to Win10 then there are enough changes that you already need to learn a new OS anyway. In my case the first time I saw Win8 I thought "What the @(*^#& is this??!" and that pushed me to really start using Linux on a day to day basis on my secondary laptop and getting familiar with it.Ubuntu installs just as easily as Windows these days and most things work out of the box. You can do complex customization if you want but you don't have to. For casual users I'd say it's 100% there already. It runs a web browser, that's all a lot of people need anymore and then there is lots of other great software. Drawing, painting, audio, video, drafting, games, etc. Then for those who need more you can run Windows under Virtualbox.The Linux update system is *far* superior to that in Windows too. For one thing you have 100% control over the process if you want. You can set it to auto-update which also works very smoothly, it can install updates in the background without interrupting what you do, most updates don't require a reboot at all and those that do patiently wait until you decide to reboot the machine yourself. When that happens they just boot up, no sitting there for 45 minutes not letting you use the machine. The way Windows handles updates now is absurd, it is obnoxious to the point of being unusable. My friend is a gamer so he's pretty much forced to use Win10 on his gaming/VR machine. He doesn't use it all that frequently and complains that every time he does go to use it he has to wait an hour for the damn thing to install updates he didn't ask for and doesn't want. It's crazy to me that anyone finds this acceptable.

author: apis
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2019, 08:28:42 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on March 16, 2019, 05:33:53 pmYes, that is true. I just worry someone might expect it to be a perfectly smooth ride; there will inevitably be some frustration when switching to a new OS.I remember that something simple, like no longer having access to the same utility programs I was used to could be frustrating. For example, I couldn't find a simple paint program when I needed it because it wasn't calledMS Paintlike I was used to (there are many such programs but they are not installed by default as far as I know). The default calculator application didn't use to be particularly good, the current one in Ubuntu 18 is ok, but I would still recommend a program calledspeedcrunch. Such small problems could cause a lot of stress. It's a lot easier to find help and suggestions online now though.Linux has come a long way in terms of ease of use. You once had to configure X manually, and there were warnings that if you get the monitor scan-rates wrong you might blow up you monitor. Not for the faint of heart.(Most of the difficulty back then was dealing with buggy or nonexistent drivers though). Today the installation process for Ubuntu is easy as long as you go with the defaults. I would say it's a lot easier than installing windows actually, but the big difference is that windows is often pre-installed when you buy a new computer.The people who have most difficulty in my experience are not the casual users, but rather those who are windows power users and one day want to install a web server for example. Suddenly they finds themselves trying to configure apache, mysql and php using bash, sudo and vi, realising they don't even know where the configuration files are stored.You have to learn to use the command line interface if you want to do more advanced things (especially server related). There is no problem with that imo, but there is a learning curve (it was worth the effort though). But for casual use you don't have to worry about that.Quote from: james_s on March 16, 2019, 05:33:53 pmCompletely agree. And it not only updates your operating system, but it can update all programs on your computer! No need to worry about upgrading your browser to get the latest security fixes for example.I sympathise with your friend. I used dual boot with windows 10 on my latest laptop, but I removed windows eventually since it was practically useless. Whenever booting into windows the computer would insist on installing updates for several hours, often preventing me from using the computer and getting back to work for the rest of the day. Very frustrating when trying to meet a deadline late in the evening and switching into windows for whatever reason. I don't understand how anyone put up with it. If you need windows, definitely put it on a virtual machine!

author: rdl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2019, 08:48:48 pm
content: Apparently you can now "defer" updates on all versions of Windows 10 for up to 30 days. There's just something very suspicious to me about a system that needs that much updating and that level of control.

author: apis
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2019, 09:07:11 pm
content: I prefer if I'm the one in charge of the computer and not the other way around.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2019, 01:32:59 am
content: I am still using DD-WRT to block MS and a few others. It's worked out really well. Not too long ago, I wanted to play with Dave's 121GW BT software. It required me to update my Windows 10 to the latest version. Against my better judgement, I allowed Windows access to MS. After the upgrade, I ran wireshark for a few more days and sure enough they had added some ways to get in. After plugging those, the PC has once again been stable.https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/windows-10-creators-update-1703/msg1321900/#msg1321900

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2019, 01:57:38 am
content: Quote from: apis on March 16, 2019, 08:28:42 pmSure but that's going to apply to Windows now too. 8 and 10 (which I consider to be more like 8.5) are so nearly as different than previous versions as Linux. When I saw the direction Windows was going I realized I was going to have to learn a new OS one way or another and if I'm going to do that, why continue to be trapped in Windows? This is doubly true of MS manages to kill off "legacy" Win32 software and move everybody to "modern" mobile style apps. They seem to be overlooking the fact that Traditional Windows desktop software and familiarity is the whole reason almost anyone runs Windows, deprecate that and Windows no longer has any reason to exist, it's not Windows anymore.

author: bitseeker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2019, 02:10:49 am
content: Underneath the heavy layer of frosting that is Windows 8-10 are buried dialogs from Vista and XP. Dig deep enough (sometimes 4-5 layers down) and familiar components appear.Nevertheless, all operating systems suck, just in different ways. Use the one(s) that annoy you the least for what you need to accomplish. At least we're not stuck with just one (yet).

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 17, 2019, 05:21:38 am
content: https://getfedora.org

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2019, 09:10:18 am
content: That script is a good idea, but doesn't all that shit get reinstalled when Windows does a major update? Isn't there a way to do a check at boot time to detect of that crap has been reinstalled and silently run the script again, if it has?Windows 10 is such a slow, buggy turd, some Windows programs run better under WINE. Running under Windows, it often it takes over five minutes for the safe as dialogue box in LTSpice to become responsive, yet it happens immediately when run under WINE! I accept it may take a little longer on this Windows machine because the documents are stored on a separate mechanical hard drive, to the solid state one the OS is installed on, so perhaps a few seconds at most to start the hard drive, if it has been turned off to save power, but not over five bloody minutes!

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2019, 05:56:18 pm
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on March 17, 2019, 01:32:59 amI wanted to do that some years ago but I bricked a Linksys router and that was the end of that road. Then I tried messing withpfsensewhich is very good but it did not support USB network adapters.Maybe one of these days I should go back to looking at pfsense and/or DD-WRT solutions.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2019, 06:47:33 pm
content: Quote from: soldar on March 17, 2019, 05:56:18 pmYou probably got unlucky. Flashing DD-WRT isn't terribly complicated, although I concede that the instructions aren't always presented as coherently as they'd ideally be.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2019, 06:58:31 pm
content: I've been using Tomato on my router for years. It's very similar to DD-WRT although at the time at least I found the UI to be nicer. I have the Apple update servers blocked to prevent my iPhone from downloading the latest iOS every time I delete it. This sort of behavior is infuriating, I demand absolute control over my devices, the technology exists to be my slave, not the other way around.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2019, 07:06:19 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on March 17, 2019, 06:58:31 pmI've never had the latest iOS download without an explicit command. I think you need to turn off Automatic Updates.https://www.macworld.co.uk/how-to/iphone/stop-iphone-nagging-ios-software-update-3641478/

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2019, 07:14:09 pm
content: It's been off since the very start on both iPhones I've owned and it most certainly does download itself automatically. On my old iPhone 4 I had to keep the 8GB phone full of photos to prevent it from downloading the >1GB iOS7 update. On my current SE I've had to delete the iOS11 and 12 updates numerous times when they've downloaded themselves when I forgot and plugged it into power while on other WiFi networks.It typically doesn't install itself but it will download repeatedly at which point it nags you to install. Even after deleting it I've had a perpetual red badge on the settings icon nagging me about an available update. Turning off auto update does not prevent iOS from downloading. I've had this setting since day one since I was well aware of the issue from my last iPhone and still it discovered an update is available. I deleted the update and that notification badge is still there. I eventually installed the TVOS profile as instructed on that page you found but even so a few weeks ago the @*&^# iOS12 update somehow downloaded again and offered to install.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2019, 07:31:56 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on March 17, 2019, 07:14:09 pmI've never seen that behaviour. I've seen prompts to download the latest update and the notification badges, but they're not downloaded before commanded to do so. This is in line with the link I posted, so it doesn't appear something is off here. This behaviour may have been changed since iOS 7 and the issues you experienced with that though. I'll make sure to pay close attention when the next update hits.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2019, 07:38:22 pm
content: I don't know, I've never had iOS7. I had 6 on my first phone which is still my favorite and 10 on the current one. In each case I've bought a new phone, got it all set up the way I want it and then my desire is to freeze the configuration until EOL. I hate updates, with each one come new features I didn't ask for, new bugs, and the phone gets more sluggish. Apple seems hell bent on updating iOS devices to about one version beyond where they should have left well enough alone, to the point that the device becomes almost unusably slow, which I'm sure is their intent. The fact that there is no way to roll back is another thorn in my side, but I don't really have any other option, there's Android but it shares many of the same pain points and has a bunch of different things that irritate me.

author: hwj-d
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2019, 08:28:06 pm
content: Back to win10.Last days i build a PC for someone. He wanted win7, but with NVMe-SSD, what should make it incredible fast. So I bought a Samsung 970 EVO for him, from which i know, there are win7 drivers available. I bought aASRock H370M-ITX/acMini-ITX, to make it compact as possible. I have some win7 install-cd's without service pack for the initial setup on temporary external ssd, and after install all the board drivers, i wanted to install the NVMe drivers to the temp win7, and after that, clone it to the onboard NVMe-SSD to boot from there.But, surprisingly, no any driver from the board-cd could be installed! No usb, no fundamentally INF-driver, i've had nothing to get a step further.A look at Asrock driver download online revealed the problem:These are WIN10 - ONLY drivers!They don't have win7-drivers anymoreBut nowhere a reference to it, not at purchase, and also not on the original driver cd enclosed!So, this is the conceptionaly first win10-only-board, i've seen for now.Luckily only the lan-driver is working. So i can upgrade the very first win7 updates over the net, an then download the MediaCreationTool from my server, to install win10 directly over the net, that works. But no chance for win7 with this board.

author: blacksheeplogic
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2019, 08:34:27 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on March 17, 2019, 07:38:22 pmThis is the reason I stopped using apple products. They started changing the UI with updates so I would have to get used to a new way of working or I would lose a feature I liked.I however do this updates are important if they are patching legitimate security and/or bugs. Problem is that many times the forced updates come with features I don't want and I would prefer to stay on a release without them. Apple were by far the worst updates.

author: jmelson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2019, 09:06:16 pm
content: QuoteRun Linux! I've been doing it since 1998 or so, it just keeps getting better!All of my kids and my **WIFE** are using it, too!Jon

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2019, 09:31:39 pm
content: There are a handful of reasons I'm still not using Linux for my daily driver, most of that comes down to software that does not have Linux versions or comparable equivalents although that is gradually shrinking. The other thing which may just be a matter of me learning a bit more, but when something breaks in Windows I can usually manage to fix it. With Linux on numerous occasions I have spent *hours* troubleshooting only to eventually give up and reinstall the OS. Most recently my Plex server crashed and somehow corrupted the root partition so the OS wouldn't fully boot. I tried everything I could think of, eventually gave up and reinstalled.Then there is hardware support, I have a scanner that only has Windows drivers available. I used to have a printer that only had Windows drivers.Then things like playing DVDs used to be unnecessarily difficult or impossible, only fixed when someone managed to crack the encryption. Services like Netflix for the longest time simply wouldn't work on Linux, I believe that has changed but I "fixed" it by dumping Netflix, going back to buying used discs and ripping them onto a Plex server. Technically I think ripping the discs is illegal because it circumvents the DRM but I own the discs so screw it, I'll do as I please.Then there is the other edge of the customizable sword, Linux is SO tweakable and customizable that there are ten zillion ways of doing everything and nobody can agree on one standard set of anything. Thankfully Ubuntu and related releases with different window managers have helped to form one well supported mass market release that has steadily become more polished. Used to be Linux was always a few steps behind on polish but Windows helped tilt that greatly by regressing so far. At the point where Winndows 7 is no longer viable due to lack of support for modern hardware I think Linux will be the only viable choice for me. For now though Win7 is still very nice IMHO.

author: bitseeker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2019, 09:59:53 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on March 17, 2019, 09:31:39 pmThe reasons you list aren't unreasonable. One size doesn't fit all. Even OS X took some time to have enough market share for sufficient software to be made for it. Windows used to dominate much more than it does now.QuoteTechnically, you're fine. Backing up your purchased media or transforming for your own use is still legal as far as I know. *knock on wood*QuoteYes, Linux has come a long way. In fact, I find that it's less hassle to set up printers on Ubuntu (and its variants) than on Windows 10, especially for older printers. Last month, with an old HP laser printer, Ubuntu found it on the network and set it up. No fuss. Windows 10 couldn't see it until I explicitly entered its IP address. Then, it didn't have a driver for it and couldn't get it from Windows Update. After going through the process of forcing Windows to download more printer drivers, it still didn't have the correct model. So, I had to try a couple of generic PCL drivers to see which one would print without garbage. It was like the dark ages. Oh, how times have changed.

author: apis
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2019, 10:02:50 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on March 17, 2019, 09:31:39 pmThat's what I mean, it requires a bit of effort to learn if you want to do more complicated stuff. On the other hand, if windows crashes and the automatic chkdsk doesn't solve your problem you're screwed. On Linux you usuallycanfix things in my experience. The problem's I've had have either been hardware related or that I screwed up somehow (or tried some experimental software like zfs on fuse, which I blame myself for). The key to not having problems with linux is to not try the new exciting stuff, just stick to defaults and stable versions.Ideally you shouldn't have to deal with anything else than the application software you are working with.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2019, 10:34:42 pm
content: Quote from: apis on March 17, 2019, 10:02:50 pmI literally can't remember the last time I saw a fully broken Windows install. I'm not saying it's anywhere near a perfect OS, but that doesn't appear to be a practical problem.

author: apis
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2019, 10:44:10 pm
content: Hardware fails eventually, so it's inevitable at some point. I have seen Windows fail many times. On Linux you have the possibility to make your setup as complicated as you like and that also, unfortunately, increase the probability that something will go wrong. Windows nowadays also protect it's system files very aggressively, which might mean there are fewer ways things can fail in vivo.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2019, 10:56:07 pm
content: Quote from: apis on March 17, 2019, 10:44:10 pmIf hardware fails it's not a Windows failure. I haven't seen it happening in large amounts of mundane or very complicated use cases, so I suspect it's a PEBKAC issue. The same applies to updates. If you know what you're doing, they shouldn't bother you. If you don't know what you're doing, Microsoft is doing you a favour by making sure your system is updated and protected. Now, I'm definitely not saying there haven't been issues in the past where Microsoft opted for a much too intrusive approach. Their current approach seems to work reasonably well, although I would personally prefer the traditional Windows update style and level of control. Most users seem to think updates are a nuisance and I see how some need the encouragement to do what's in their best interest.

author: rdl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2019, 11:23:04 pm
content: I was under the impression that Windows 7 can't be installed on anything newer than 6 series/Skylake boards, and even then the lack of USB 3.0 drivers is a problem. If it can be done, then I'm building a new machine.Quote from: hwj-d on March 17, 2019, 08:28:06 pm

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2019, 11:25:06 pm
content: Quote from: rdl on March 17, 2019, 11:23:04 pmWindows 7 is effectively dead. It will lose support next year and isn't getting all the features as it is. You can work around the limitations if you really want to, but expect some tinkering to keep it going and things may break unexpectedly.

author: apis
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2019, 11:28:31 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on March 17, 2019, 10:56:07 pmThe problem was that there were too many windows computers that were never updated. That led to a lot of problems with computer worms and spammers that exploited security vulnerabilities that had been patched many years ago and could have been prevented if only the end users installed security updates. I understand they decided to make updates install automatically by default (they should have done that a long time ago), but that they don't even give you an option to postpone updates that literally took hours to install (during which time the computer is unusable) makes no sense. Based on my own experience, the reason it took so long was because I didn't use windows often, it was not because I didn't know what I was doing, It just took forever to install the backlog of updates and windows gives you no option to postpone it.A root file system corruption sounds like a hardware problem to me. How well the computer recover from a hardware failure is a OS problem I would say. The average uptime for Linux servers is usually reported to be significantly better than that for windows. The difference is probably (hopefully) less than what it used to be, but I believe it is still true. A well configured Linux server can run for many years without the need to reboot. So stability wise I would argue linux is better. But it depends on your setup. ZFS on FUSE was not stable.Linux lets you do whatever you want as administrator. If you install experimental software features, that is really user error, not an os problem.

author: hwj-d
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2019, 11:36:28 pm
content: Quote from: rdl on March 17, 2019, 11:23:04 pmYes. That's what i've learned now.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2019, 11:55:05 pm
content: Quote from: apis on March 17, 2019, 11:28:31 pmFew updates take hours and those that do are largely installed in the background. The big ones are typically the feature updates and those are largely installed as you work, with an occasional reboot required at a time you can pick. Feature updates only occur every half year and can be postponed long enough to be installed once every year or less. You won't miss essential security features. I've noticed a lot of people who complain are those who use their computers infrequently and subsequently get confronted with updates almost every time they use their computer. That's effectively the worst case scenario for updates. It could be mitigated by some automation, but few people in that situation will know how or want to spend the effort.Uptime used to be cool when IT wasn't very mature. Showing off with your uptime is likely to get you an eye-roll and points deducted for not really understanding the mechanics of modern computing. Uptime is meaningless when the press of a button deploys 20 new servers and culls another 30. In more traditional settings Windows Servers can go for months without reboots. They're generally only rebooted after installing an update. Linux servers also require a reboot after a kernel update, which should admittedly happen less often than regular updates.

author: apis
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2019, 12:30:44 am
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on March 17, 2019, 11:55:05 pmUpdates often had to be installed sequentially so it took a long time even if small, and they often had to be installed when rebooting (i.e. making the computer unusable while they were installed). They did download in the background though. Sometimes they also failed installing, and after having spent a long time upgrading, windows reverted the upgrade before finally booting. Next time windows update ran it tried installing the same broken update again. There are also many occasions when you can't postpone a reboot, especially if you are dual booting with another OS. It makes no sense to have to use windows often to avoid having the computer unusable, spending many hours updating.Quote from: Mr. Scram on March 17, 2019, 11:55:05 pmUptime gives an indication of stability. Linux still dominates the server market, that has to mean something. Anyway, I don't think it's fair to say Linux is less stable.This is turning into a my favourite os vs your favourite os debate which are usually not productive, so let's leave it at that.Quote from: Mr. Scram on March 17, 2019, 11:55:05 pmActually, not any morehttps://www.linuxjournal.com/content/no-reboot-kernel-patching-and-why-you-should-care

author: rdl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2019, 01:02:03 am
content: Personally I tend to look on "end of support" for Windows 7 as little more than a scare tactic. I'm sure that in some situations, for some people, it may be important. For me, it is pretty much irrelevant. My "entertainment" machine which is used almost 100% for games, movies, music, and youtube has been running 15 months since the last time I installed Windows 7 and no updates have been installed during that time. The service is disabled.I was going to build a Skylake machine at one time, but the performance improvement over my existing system would have been pretty small for the effort and cost, so I bought a better video card instead. Currently games are designed for consoles that my computer keeps up with pretty well. Eventually that will change. Sooner or later I'll need to build a new computer. The thought of putting Windows 10 on it is disheartening. I don't like the idea of constantly being at war with Microsoft just to play games. An alternative would be to put the Windows 10 machine on a separate network all by itself and only turn it on to play games. That seems terribly wasteful to me though.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2019, 01:24:23 am
content: Quote from: apis on March 18, 2019, 12:30:44 amUpdates taking longer than a couple of handfuls of seconds upon reboot are rare, and they never take what could be considered a long time unless you've not installed updates for quite a while. "Many hours" doesn't happen in anything remotely resembling a regular scenario. Uptime isn't a measure of stability if servers are rebooted for the sake of updates. Stability means servers behave as expected when left unattended and that's not an issue on either platform. I've seen Windows Server deployments with uptimes of months or years. You don't want to omit updates that long, but you can if you please.I'm in no way saying that Linux is less stable and certainly am not stupid enough to advocate one OS over another. Use whatever OS suits your use case and experience. My favourite OS is the one that gets the job done somewhat effectively. You need to have very little of value in your life if you go to war over an OS. There just seems to be a lot of outdated or outright untrue nonsense being spouted on the web and correcting it may help some people make more suitable choices.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2019, 01:35:35 am
content: Quote from: rdl on March 18, 2019, 01:02:03 amIt's not a scare tactic. Security updates are an important part of what keeps your computer safe when online. Computer crime has become an industry and known vulnerabilities are neatly developed into easy to use software packages to be sold to less capable criminals to use. After a short while, every kid with a credit card can purchase software which is able to exploit the known vulnerabilities in your system and ruins your day. I do agree that the whole Windows thing has become a battle with Microsoft. They've shown to put their interests above those of the users and this unfortunately means having to stay vigilant and continuously scanning for the next trick they're trying to pull. As much as I dislike it, the Windows 10 model is here to stay and eventually it'll be the only Windows platform option left.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2019, 03:06:44 am
content: No, it really is a scare tactic, and people like you parrot it as if it's gospel. Meanwhile I have years of actual experience cleaning up infected machines and every one of those became infected because the user installed something. *Every* one of them. Didn't matter if they were fully updated or not, the user is by far the biggest security hole.Now for public facing servers, yes security updates are absolutely critical, but for a typical home PC that is sitting behind a router it just isn't that important, there are numerous small obstacles to exploiting them and typically it just doesn't happen. A couple months ago after a similar debate I actually fired up an old XP laptop connected to my home wifi and let it sit there, after about a week I got bored waiting for someone to p@wn it and shut it down. It's going to take a few exploits to change my mind because so far I've never seen it happen even once to a PC not directly connected to the wide open internet.Anyway regardless of any of this, my PC is my property and I have the absolute right to administer it any way I want. If I can't control updates and vet them individually then I'm going to completely disable updates and anyone who tries to force me to do otherwise can piss off. Few things are more irritating than Microsoft apologists.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 18, 2019, 03:28:09 am
content: Quote from: james_s on March 18, 2019, 03:06:44 amAllow me to interject. Mr Scram is absolutely on the money. My qualifications come from almost 20 years in the IT industry, having worked for the Australian Government in Cyber/digital forensics and a Master's Degree in Cyber Security. I also run my own company which specialises in secure networks.A router (particularly a consumer one) will do little to stop cyber attacks, crooks stealing your data or user ignorance/stupidity. Attack vectors differ and there is not one single solution which will protect you. For a home user, the bare minimum should be:1. Regular updates to OS, applications, anti-virus and device firmware.2. User awareness and education.3. Not logging on as an Administrator to do everyday tasks.4. Regular backups.5. Use unique and strong passwords for everything.RememberWannaCry? That directly exploited a serious vulnerability in SMB. It was so serious that Microsoft developed an update for Windows XP and Windows Server 2003 even though they were considered end-of-life several years beforehand. Hundreds of thousands of machines were infected. This is just one example of many.The equivalent of not updating your operating systems is like solely relying on the seatbelt in your 1992 Toyota Corolla to keep you safe in a crash.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2019, 03:50:43 am
content: Quote from: james_s on March 18, 2019, 03:06:44 amWhile I agree with your assessment that the user is the beginning and the end when it comes to security, I do object to the notion of the importance of patches being something which is parroted. It requires being somewhat up to speed with the current threat landscape and the variety of attack vectors and actual attacks seen in the wild to understand their relevance. Most people are none of those things, which is why things are dumbed down into something which is then mistaken for gospel. It'd also be a grave mistake to think every infection or breach looks like your aunt downloading the new Ariana Grande album from the wrong website. Many if not most types of computer crime try to remain undetected as long as possible.

author: rdl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2019, 04:33:03 am
content: At one time, I would monitor Windows updates very carefully. This was around the time Windows 10 had been released and Microsoft was backdating Windows 7 and 8 to include much of the same spyware as Windows 10. I would scrutinized every single update for what it did and what it was for, before deciding whether I actually needed to install it. I did this for almost a year and I discovered that the reasons given for around 75% or more of updates were to fix vulnerabilities in Internet Explorer.Obviously it's a bad idea to use a computer stupidly when connected to the internet, updated or not. I use browsers that are locked down as tight as I know how and always updated. If I need to do something that requires passwords and credit card numbers to be sent it's done on a Linux machine, Steam and GoG being the only exceptions. And I've been avoiding that butt-sniffing Steam as much as possible lately.

author: vtwin@cox.net
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2019, 12:27:27 pm
content: Quote from: apis on March 18, 2019, 12:30:44 amMove any user home directory to another drive, and create a symlink in c:\users pointing to the new location. 100% breaks those larger "feature updates" where the update creates a Windows.Old folder. Been a known bug for several years, Microsoft still won't fix it. System will reboot night after night after night attempting to install (and then rollback) the same update. The only workaround is to reboot, log in to an administrator account with a home directory on C:\Users, remove the 'offending' symlink on the other account, install the update, reboot, log back in as the alternate user, recreate the symlink, reboot and then log in as the user. Friggin annoying.

author: hwj-d
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2019, 12:31:47 pm
content: Quote from: Halcyon on March 18, 2019, 03:28:09 amOh wow, other people have that too.I'm not working for goverments, but also specialized to it-forensics since we know and use TCP/IP and identify it as not security oriented in this respect incompletely developed protocolls as the actual main security problem. And that's nearly doubles the 20 years.QuoteThats right. I mention that too to everyone. But first we are living in a mixed structure of heterogen comercial and consumer oriented network-, server- and client OS's up to smartphones and xpads, that have fundamental other requirements also and especially with regard to safety requirements.Especially with the many deliberately built in security gaps of commercial nature, but also of backdoors especially in the government's interest, the whole thing reminds me meanwhile rather of a ubiquitous shadow boxing towards the consumer than a real protective security issue.Especially with win10 I can understand, if someone doesn't want to take part in this humming gyro anymore.

author: apis
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2019, 04:18:44 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on March 18, 2019, 01:24:23 amClearly we have very different experiences when it comes to Windows 10 updates.When I got my current laptop (which came with win 10) I installed dual-boot with Linux (on a separate disk). I very rarely used windows and the installation was mostly left the way it was when I got it from the shop (I had installed a few well regarded brand name applications, but never got around to using them). So there wasn't really any opportunity for me to break anything. I know my way around windows better than most (well, up until win 7 at least) and I have never had problems like that before. The computer would spend hours updating when it was time to reboot so I could get back into Linux. I spent days trying to figure out if there was a way to postpone them or even disable automatic updates, but the answer from Microsoft was that there were none. I have since removed windows, since the way it worked it really was useless and only a waste of disk space. Clearly there are others who have had the same experience, so I don't believe I'm an exception.I'm glad it works for you. Many people who run windows have it configured so that it will install updates automatically during night. Many users might not even realise it does that. This is the case at most workplaces. Then you won't notice that the updates take a long time to install of course. But a few minutes every day quickly adds up to hours. As long as Microsoft treat their customers this way I won't bother with windows again.And why did I have to login to my own computer with a windows live account?

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 18, 2019, 04:29:57 pm
content: Quote from: apis on March 18, 2019, 04:18:44 pmIf you use SSD it never takes more than a few minutes. With HDD it can be quite slow sometimes.

author: apis
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2019, 04:32:52 pm
content: Quote from: Halcyon on March 18, 2019, 03:28:09 amAnother reason to stay away from Microsoft software, they have a very bad track record when it comes to security. For decades there was only an administrator account. (Maybe you have a different perspective on that as an security consultant though.)Quote from: wraper on March 18, 2019, 04:29:57 pmIt was on an SSD. I didn't log into windows very often so the updates accumulated and then wanted to be installed all at once, sequentially. A few minutes per day * many days = hours.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2019, 04:58:48 pm
content: Quote from: apis on March 18, 2019, 04:18:44 pmThe thing is that I've seen a lot of Windows 10 update cycles, more than I ever cared to see. Yet I've never seen these problems. I'm not saying that you didn't have yours, but I am saying something probably got broken on your end. Dual boot offers a few ways in which that could happen. Updates are occasionally done during the night, but most will be done during the day when the user is present.You don't have to login to Windows with a Live account. The option to use a local account still exists. It's not that obvious, but it's there. That's another example of misinformation that gets spread because people don't quite know what they're doing. Finally, administrator accounts have been a thing in Windows since Windows 2000 and XP.

author: apis
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2019, 05:28:57 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on March 18, 2019, 04:58:48 pmThey are installed during night if you configure it that way. Theydownloadduring the day when the user might be present. Some updates that doesn't require a reboot might be installed when the desktop is running, but many has to be installed during a reboot. What fraction I don't know but it doesn't really matter, the end result was that it took hours to install the updates that required reboot. I installed Linux on a separate SSD so the entire windows drive was untouched. I'm very used to doing that and I don't see how it could cause any issues that would break updates?I also know others with the same experience and the fact that another with the same experience was mentioned in this thread shows it's not an uncommon problem:Quote from: james_s on March 16, 2019, 05:33:53 pmI can understand you find it hard to believe they designed it that way, I could hardly believe it myself. Especially that there was no way to postpone/disable the updates.Quote from: Mr. Scram on March 18, 2019, 04:58:48 pmI wonder why it's not that obvious.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2019, 06:40:52 pm
content: Quote from: apis on March 18, 2019, 05:28:57 pmComputers can't install updates when they're turned off and users won't reliable leave computers running to do so. This means fat clients are updated in the presence of the end user. You can boot computers using WoL, but that's not that common outside of specific use cases. This is not a case of updates being installed out of sight. It's a case of something being wrong on your end which is probably exacerbated by not using the deployment that often. You've had issues and that's unfortunate, but you don't have enough experience or samples to properly gauge how big this problem is and seem to be making the mistake of projecting your issues on every computer out there. The Windows local login option is not that obvious because Microsoft wants you to use a Microsoft account. It's not terribly complicated to avoid that, though.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 18, 2019, 06:55:45 pm
content: Quote from: apis on March 18, 2019, 04:32:52 pmFirst of all updates are not daily, you can't calculate like that. Also such "counter" is basically reset with each feature update. Hours on SSD is nonsense, there should be some issue with particular computer/windows installation for this to happen.

author: apis
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2019, 07:12:05 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on March 18, 2019, 06:40:52 pmAnd you know that how?Quote from: Mr. Scram on March 18, 2019, 06:40:52 pmAnd yet, windows update has this option. Or now that I think back, that might have been windows xp or 7 :-, I think you are right, in windows 10 I believe you could only prevent it from installing updates during office hours. Is that right?Quote from: Mr. Scram on March 18, 2019, 06:40:52 pmNeither do you. As I said, I know other people who have had the same issue, and another person was mentioned in this thread. I never said it was the same for everyone, but it is a real problem. If you use windows every day and install updates continuously you probably don't have this problem, that doesn't mean it's not real.Quote from: Mr. Scram on March 18, 2019, 06:40:52 pmYes, but the question waswhydoes Microsoft want you to use a MS Live account. (It's a rhetorical question no need to answer.)

author: apis
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2019, 07:14:30 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on March 18, 2019, 06:55:45 pmIt's what happened to me and it happens to others. If there was a problem it was there when I got it.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 18, 2019, 07:33:46 pm
content: Quote from: apis on March 18, 2019, 07:12:05 pmIt's not rhetorical, it's data mining and making you buying more stuff from them. If you think a bit, basically everyone use live account with ios and Android and don't complain. Microsoft wants to be the same. What causes rejection is that it was not like this before. Also if you are a bit attentive during windows installation/first run of new computer, you'll notice it offers offline account on bottom of a screen.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 18, 2019, 07:45:51 pm
content: Quote from: apis on March 18, 2019, 04:32:52 pmWindows is typicallyreasonablysecure, even out of the box provided you catch up with the latest updates straight up. But some tweaking was required which was seldom done by home users. It's a balance between usability and security. Where as you take something like Fedora Server, everything is disabled or locked down by default until you turn it on.For decades Windows would set the first user up as an Administrator upon installation, so effectively that user always had administrative rights whenever they executed something under their login. Microsoft "fixed" this from Windows Vista onwards by introducing User Access Control (UAC) which prompted the user with a yes/no prompt every time they tried to do something that required local admin rights. It was a step in the right direction, but it was still way too easy for novice users to break things.The option for a regular user account was always there in most versions of Windows, even going back to the NT days, it's just typically in a home environment, no one set it up that way.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2019, 07:59:04 pm
content: Quote from: apis on March 18, 2019, 07:12:05 pmI know that this problem is exacerbated by not using the machine often because I've seen it before. This also happens to be exactly what you and this other user you refer to are reporting.I'm speaking on authority of a sample group of several thousand Windows 10 deployments in various configurations and environments. How big is your sample group?

author: jmelson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2019, 07:59:42 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on March 17, 2019, 09:31:39 pmWell, seems the opposite for me. Only once have I had to reinstall Linux, and that was after I had been seriously messing in internals for some reason, and I got it totally messed up, to where I couldn't even install over the existing system, but had to wipe the disk. But, I knew I had seriously messed around in it trying to FORCE some oddball drivers to load into the wrong version of the OS.QuoteI did have a really off-brand scanner that required a special firmware file to be loaded. I think it was such an oddball that it needed special attention even under Windows.QuoteI know my daughter watches Netflix on her Linux system.Jon

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2019, 08:00:53 pm
content: Quote from: apis on March 18, 2019, 07:14:30 pmDid you buy your computer with the dual boot installation you referred to earlier? If it was a problem from the beginning, why haven't you claimed warranty or support?

author: apis
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2019, 09:05:09 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on March 18, 2019, 07:59:04 pmHome users?Quote from: Mr. Scram on March 18, 2019, 08:00:53 pmNo, how many companies sell computers with Linux as a dual-boot option?IIRC windows distributors have to make a deal with MS not to sell other operating systems or else they have to pay much more for each windows licence which would put them out of business. At least that is how it used to be.I have administrated both windows and Linux machines professionally for many years, although it was some time ago so I haven't had to deal with windows 10. If I don't touch the windows disk then from windows perspective the only hint it's a dual boot system is that there is another disk installed that lacks a windows partition. I fail to see how dual boot can make updates install slower?Quote from: Mr. Scram on March 18, 2019, 07:59:04 pmBecause I believe it was a problem with windows 10 and I'm convinced it was "working as intended". I also use windows very rarely and didn't really need it on my laptop so might as well use the disk space for linux. I still have a windows 7 installation on my desktop (also dual boot). It doesn't have these problems. So rather than going through the problem of contacting support (which usually can't solve problems I can't solve myself, unless it's the hardware) I deleted it. Support would just have told me to do a factory restore, not prepared to jump through all their hoops, would have been days of work likely for nothing.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2019, 09:24:51 pm
content: Quote from: apis on March 18, 2019, 09:05:09 pmYou're seeing something which isn't reasonable behaviour after making a significant change to your system and you're convinced it was broken out of the box and by design? Assuming what you're seeing is expected behaviour isn't exactly the safe bet.

author: apis
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2019, 09:28:36 pm
content: It's not a significant change. How could it affect the update speed? If I had messed around with windows I would agree with you, but it was practically untouched.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 18, 2019, 09:33:20 pm
content: Quote from: apis on March 18, 2019, 09:28:36 pmFor example, if you screwed up, you might get misaligned partition.

author: apis
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2019, 09:35:53 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on March 18, 2019, 09:33:20 pmExcept, as I said, I installed Linux on a separate disk. The windows disk was never touched. Windows doesn't play nice with other OS's so it's often the safest option.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 18, 2019, 09:39:47 pm
content: Quote from: apis on March 18, 2019, 09:35:53 pmWhat about small system reserved partition?

author: apis
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2019, 09:47:35 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on March 18, 2019, 09:39:47 pmLinux was installed on a new SSD disk that didn't come with the computer, everything else was left untouched. All the systems partitions, partition tables, boot loaders etc was left untouched. The only system change was to change the boot disk order in bios when switching between linux and windows.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2019, 09:53:42 pm
content: Quote from: apis on March 18, 2019, 09:28:36 pmAdding a second OS to a system is not a significant change and the unreasonable behaviour you see is expected and by design although the problem is rarely reported. Do you understand how increasingly unlikely that all sounds? We don't know what was already broken or what you possibly broke yourself. All we see is a list of exceptions you claim are the norm, to then tells us the norm is terrible. At this point you really have to consider the norm may not be at fault, but what you're seeing simply isn't the norm.

author: apis
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2019, 10:03:42 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on March 18, 2019, 09:53:42 pmIf I was the only one seeing it, alas I am not.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2019, 10:15:00 pm
content: Quote from: apis on March 18, 2019, 10:03:42 pmApparently this one other guy you're reporting about has similar problems and probably a few more you're going to Google search right now. Meanwhile, many thousands of other systems in various configurations don't have these problems. But somehow you're sure the unreasonable behaviour you're seeing is a systemic problem, despite seemingly not doing much to investigate or mitigate the issue.

author: apis
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2019, 10:23:45 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on March 18, 2019, 10:15:00 pmNow you are making things up. I never said it wasoneother guy, I have talked to many others, and read reports by others experiencing the same. I don't have to google to find examples since (as I've already pointed out before) another person has mentioned it in this tread. That said, most windows users probably use windows every day and don't have to wait a long time to install a backlog of updates.You can't do much to mitigate the issue. Windows just lets you know it's updating and you have to wait until it's done. That's the problem.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2019, 10:45:13 pm
content: Quote from: apis on March 18, 2019, 10:23:45 pmI'm not saying the issue is unique, but I can confidently and reasonably well substantiated state it certainly is rare. The problem is that you outright refuse to admit the problem may not be the norm and could be on your end, and you've done nothing to investigate or fix your issue under the fatalist guise of it being what it is. The possibility that you may have missed something, as was the case with having to use Windows with a Microsoft account, isn't even considered. You can lead a donkey to water, but you can't make it drink.

author: apis
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2019, 11:02:51 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on March 18, 2019, 10:45:13 pmI've admitted it's a possibility, but I don't believe that was the case. If you don't have any compelling argument why it was likely a problem on my end, then there is no reason for me to change my mind just because you say so.You don't know what I did to investigate the issue, all I've said about that is that I didn't contact support since it's usually a waste of time in my experience.We'll just have to agree to disagree.Quote from: Mr. Scram on March 18, 2019, 10:45:13 pmThe donkey died a long time ago.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 18, 2019, 11:07:59 pm
content: Quote from: apis on March 18, 2019, 11:02:51 pmThe dead donkey is an apt comparison. No amount of reason or water will ever make it drink. It'll just emit a foul stink.

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 26, 2019, 12:29:17 pm
content: Quote from: apis on March 18, 2019, 09:35:53 pmYup. I have Win 7 on one disk and Linux Mint on another disk and never the twain shall meet. Only one disk is connected at any one time (usually Linux). I have heard too many horror stories. No way I am giving Windows any chance to access the Linux disk. No way!OTOH, I was trying trying to run Sketchup 8 with WINE. Asked in the Mint forum and was given several replies with possible ways to fix it but after spending a couple hours on this the errors were just getting more cryptic and more in quantity so I just gave up. And I consider myself lucky that I didn't break anything in the process. It seems very often in Linux I end up fighting cryptic and esoteric errors and almost always end up giving up. but even if I could succeed it is just not worth the time and effort.

author: apis
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 26, 2019, 01:31:28 pm
content: Wine is a bit hit and miss. I usually use playonlinux which is a graphical front end to wine that lets you run applications with a specific version of wine. I've gotten success in maybe 7 out of 10 times with wine. Windows apps weren't really meant to run in Linux, when they do it's pretty amazing, but it's not so strange if they don't. The easiest way to run windows apps is to install windows in a virtual machine. (Wine was created before virtual machines were practically usable).

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 27, 2019, 12:49:36 pm
content: I guess my point is that in Linux the smallest thing can turn into a nightmare with no end.- I can't get Sketchup to work- You need to check, install, remove, debug and recheck any and all dependencies.- What does that even mean and how would I do it?- Blah, blah, blah......Several hours of work later:- OK, I figured all that out and it is done but I still cannot get Sketchup to work. I am getting error "deeda.dll corrupted, not found or not needed".- Oh, why don't you try installing Winetricks?- OK, after much work I managed to install Winetricks. Now instead of a single error I get a scrolling list of errors that goes on and on scrolling. I give up.That is my experience with Linux. If you want to do anything to install or configure things you really need to know the inner workings of Linux and how to tinker with things under the hood.Sometimes, after many hours of tinkering, I might get something to work or half-work but I could not tell you what I did or how to do it again. Very frustrating.

author: grifftech
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 27, 2019, 02:22:57 pm
content: windows 10 Enterprise has less bloat

author: Beamin
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 27, 2019, 08:52:00 pm
content: Quote from: amyk on March 16, 2019, 12:09:31 amThis is what gets me, if I had a desktop that would be easy and if I crash it just pop in the windows DVD. But this is a Microsoft surface pro laptop (Worth the $1400 with a titanium alloy shell instead of plastic and ridiculous color and screen resolution like 4k) with all kinds of special drivers like the touch pad screen wifi etc. I imagine the "detach button" has all sorts of software to make that work. Since this is my only thing to do I can't risk fucking it up (some days I can't get out of bed and staring at the ceiling for 12 will drive you mad).I hate how you can't uninstall things like xbox or cortana. I seriously doubt you could get this type of computer to work with Linux. From my raspberry pi experience there is a lot of messing around to make even that simple thing work 100%.Thanks for all the replies I'm still reading this whole thread.