Are you too fussy? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Mike Warren
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 02, 2014, 01:21:49 am
content: I just received 100 boards with SM components from a contract manufacturer.They have a green solder mask, even though I specified black.The end user will not see the boards, so this doesn't really matter, but I really want to demand them redone.That would be a nightmare for the contractor as he would have to supply all the parts again, so he's very lucky that I can't afford to wait for them to be redone.What would you do?

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 02, 2014, 01:23:59 am
content: Quote from: Mike Warren on May 02, 2014, 01:21:49 amRebate on next order?Edit: I mean, they are populated already right?

author: Mike Warren
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 02, 2014, 01:26:06 am
content: Unfortunately, this is the last straw with this company. We will not be using them again.Yes, they are populated.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 02, 2014, 01:29:51 am
content: Quote from: Mike Warren on May 02, 2014, 01:26:06 amIn that case I'd just walk away. It's not worth your effort.

author: Mike Warren
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 02, 2014, 01:36:05 am
content: I have to walk away. We can't afford any more delays.It's bad enough that it took them over 4 months to deliver some very simple boards. The most exotic part is a ATTiny24A uC. They were supposed to have taken 4 to 6 weeks.

author: Mike Warren
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 02, 2014, 01:38:26 am
content: Actually, Dave, I've been contemplating sending you one of these. It's my first test equipment design, but I'm not sure if you'd have any interest.http://airsoundvision.com.au/asv3270/

author: Mike Warren
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 02, 2014, 01:44:56 am
content: We've used them for several projects, and they are consistently late (although not as bad as this one) and very poor at communication. At no point during the last 3 months were my questions about what was causing the delay answered.Curiously, a job we ordered after this one was completed in less than the quoted time. Unfortunately, that was an unusual experience for this company.

author: Mike Warren
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 02, 2014, 02:12:16 am
content: Quote from: wilfred on May 02, 2014, 02:01:46 amLOL! Quite possibly.

author: calexanian
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 02, 2014, 02:31:59 am
content: As you said. Move on.... Find a new house.

author: John Coloccia
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 02, 2014, 09:27:33 pm
content: Ask for a discount on the order.

author: G0HZU
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 02, 2014, 10:25:27 pm
content: Agreed. If the boards pass AOI and the quality of the reflow is good and the boards aren't warped or showing any contamination issues I'd ask a colleague (i.e. a better negotiator) to play hard for a discount.The alternative is you get boards somewhere else that have the correct colour but could fail any of the other issues above or you could have component availability issues with the new build.i.e. it's a case of better the devil you know... especially if you are on a tight schedule.BTW I've been in the design business for many years and we often fall out with our PCB makers. But we usually kiss and make up eventually because you never know when you will be desperate for something they can offer.

author: Smokey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 03, 2014, 12:08:28 am
content: So your CM got your boards made and stuffed the parts?I'm having a hard time coming up with a good way of wring this stuff, so I'm just going to make bullet points1) If you get your own boards made and then ship them to the CM for stuffing, then you are responsible for the quality of the PCBs and you get to inspect the quality before all the parts get put on. At least have them send a sample for your approval before they go to SMT.2) It sounds like you are going into production on your product. Cool! But that is not the time to skimp on PCB quality. If you can at all avoid it, don't use a new board house or just the place with the cheapest price. Get the production boards made at some board house that you have already qualified and have confidence in their quality. The PCB is literally the base on which the electronics quality rides. If you source your own PCBs then you will be in control of all this.3) Make sure you have good communication and documentation both on the design side and on the business side. You should have documentation of exactly what you ordered from your CM. If they didn't provide that product as specified, then they didn't fulfill their side of the business deal and you shouldn't be liable for that. If the only place you mentioned that you wanted black solder mask was over the phone or something then its easy for that to get messed up and you don't have much of a case. Get all that sorted out before you cut a PO. That includes scheduling. If they are not meeting deadlines, they need to tell you why and what they are going to do about it. Figure out in the contract what happens if they mess up before hand.4) You didn't say where your CM was located, but all of these potential issues are good reasons to stay out of China until your volume goes up. If you use a local CM, then you won't have a 12 hour time difference (and language difference) and you can even go have a face to face meeting to sort out any issues. You can't (easily) go visit a Chinese CM, and they know that so the chance of getting jerked around is higher. They could be sourcing parts (and PCBs) from places that you never would consider. I'm not saying every Chinese CM is bad, but the likelihood of the bare lowest price CM cutting corners is larger than if you went local with someone you could check up on.Assuming your CM has a good size operation (not in someone's garage) and run a reputable business, and that you had all your documentation in order and they really did just screw up, then they should own up to and give you a partial refund since you don't have time to remake the boards. If they can explain exactly why they screwed up and what they are doing to keep it from happening again (like any real business should) then you might want to give them another chance.If your CM is more shady (or in China) and you didn't have all that business stuff documented, then you are probably out of luck.Either way, this sounds like a learning experience where you need to be more on top of quality and documentation issues throughout the whole process. That either means paying more for a CM that you can trust, or approving milestones like first articles or something throughout the process.

author: KJDS
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 03, 2014, 09:11:25 am
content: I don't think I've ever used a pcb populater that left me consistently happy. Some have been slow, some have lost components supplied to them, some have consistently delivered boards with the same assembly issues and some I've left wanting to punch repeatedly.

author: electrolux
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 04, 2014, 02:42:24 pm
content: Ditch the company for my next batch of boards, and are you shure you didn't make a mistake?

author: Mike Warren
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 05, 2014, 12:55:42 am
content: Quote from: Smokey on May 03, 2014, 12:08:28 amYes.QuoteQuality has never been an issue with this company.QuoteNo. I stated it in the initial request for quote, including a photo of a sample black PCB from our prototype batch. Then, it was written as part of the specs on the order.

author: Mike Warren
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 05, 2014, 12:56:49 am
content: Quote from: electrolux on May 04, 2014, 02:42:24 pmI already had, before starting this thread. I was just interested in other people's opinions.QuoteYes, I'm sure.

author: David_AVD
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2014, 02:18:56 am
content: It is very annoying when you clearly state some specific requirements and get supplied something else with no prior warning or consultation.

author: Mike Warren
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 05, 2014, 02:28:20 am
content: I suspect the reason for the very long delay on these boards is that he knew he'd got the wrong colour and kept putting off the decision to get them remade until there was no possible way he could delay any more.