looking for a 4 channel DSO - Siglent SDS2204X or Rigol DS4024E ? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: jemangedeslolos
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 07, 2016, 01:51:39 pm
content: Hello everyone,Im looking for a new DSO.I already have a Rigol DS2202A.But Im looking now for a 4 channel DSO now because my needs are differents.Im working a lot with serial bus and it will be very nice to see the serial bus and analog channel in real time.The DS2202A is a great scope. It has just one huge flaw for me...the noise.I know that I can change the fan but I will break the warranty and I don't want that.The new DS4024E is probably noisy too but I need some feedback from owners to make the right choice.I don't know where I can test the Siglent around me so I need you guysI can't find a lot of videos on the SDS2000X so I need some informations regarding noise and serial bus decoding.I know this is not a usual request but the noise is very annoying to me.Thank you for your help

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 07, 2016, 02:02:52 pm
content: I bought a GW Instek GDS2204-E about a year ago based on the same requirements. Cheaper than the Rigol and Siglent you mentioned but it works well (no annoying bugs) and has several features the Rigol and Siglent don't offer like input filtering, 1Mpts FFT, formula based math and the GDS2204E is fast too (quad core 1GHz arm instead of a approx. 400MHz single core DSP).

author: MrWolf
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 07, 2016, 07:18:58 pm
content: Seems to be lack of info regarding SDS2000X FFT. There's this video and thats about it.Max sampling rate, resolution, memory? Zoom X times?With my old PicoScope 2205 MSO I can for example look at 25MHz spectrum at 50MS/s rate and 50k memory points with up to 100,000x zoom. When doing 100Hz spectrum can go down to 3mHz bin width...BUT the trick is that spectrum always starts from 0Hz, meaning when looking something located at 20MHz minumum bin width is 762.9Hz.So how these "real scopes" compare with this old soapbox?To illustrate added some screenshots and grabs. Would be pity to godownfrom this capability when buying new scope.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 08, 2016, 04:55:21 am
content: Quote from: MrWolf on November 07, 2016, 07:18:58 pmThere's new FW coming soon that addresses the FFT issues in SDS2kX.AFAIK it will very similar to the FFT improvements in the SDS1kX which uses very similar FW.Wee mention of it here and a shot of the GUI.https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1000x-series-oscilloscopes/msg1065554/#msg1065554Quote from: jemangedeslolos on November 07, 2016, 01:51:39 pmThere's quite a few bits you can find about the SDS2kX if you know where to look.With the release of its little brother SDS1kX, new V2 firmware was developed for both around the same time and close variants of this FW are used in SDS2k, SDS2kX and SDS1kX, therefore the UI is much the same for all these models.This V2 FW has been examined in this thread:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000-new-v2-firmware/Other parts in this thread:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1000x-series-oscilloscopes/Anything that's missing is probably covered in this thread:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent's-new-product-sds2000x-series/Like any thread, they are a history of the development and bug fixes and much has been changed and improved to this date.SDS2kX fan noiseThis is not the first time this question has been asked.For some short time I had both a SDS2304 and SDS2304X and the fan noise was the same. Not noisy.I can't be sure the exact same fan was in both units, I didn't check.However some comments to previous questions on Siglent SDS X series DSO's:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1000x-series-oscilloscopes/msg933022/#msg933022Follow the links.Anything else you need to know, just ask, I have a SDS2304X fully optioned demo unit just for jobs like yours.

author: jemangedeslolos
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 08, 2016, 09:49:53 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on November 07, 2016, 02:02:52 pmHelloThank you for your post.To be honest, I never thought about GW Instek.I remember a horrible low end DSO from them but it was maybe 10 years ago.I found your very instructive review and it seems to be a nice scope.I know that it is not the most important thing in a DSO but you mention a noise that can be annoying and....you can be sure that I will be annoyedI suffer from migraine headache so I need something quiet.

author: jemangedeslolos
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 08, 2016, 10:09:02 am
content: Quote from: MrWolf on November 07, 2016, 07:18:58 pmInteresting, fanless !Even if I'm young, I'm not sure that it is the most ergonomic way to work.But I have to look at the picoscope 5000 series review.

author: jemangedeslolos
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 08, 2016, 10:26:18 am
content: Quote from: tautech on November 08, 2016, 04:55:21 amThank you for all those infos.I read that the noise is the same level as a SDG2000x, and I have one !That is a good news because it is tolerable for me.When I power on both Rigol DS2202A and Siglent SDG2082X, the noise from the Rigol completely covers Siglent SDG noise.All seems to be well implemented expect maybe FFT and serial decoding.The new firmware seems to upgrade the FFT capability but I am aware that it will not be that great.It can not be worth that my RigolThis is the serial bus decoding that worried me a little.The best would be to see a video decoding a uart or SPI in real time to see if the oscilloscope is responsive, if the trigger is stable etc etc.

author: TurboTom
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 08, 2016, 04:14:19 pm
content: The Rigol DS4000 series fan is pretty noisy as well. I haven´t got a Siglent scope but the SSA3000X series spectrum analyzer, when sitting next to my MSO4000, is almost inaudible when both machines are powered up. So assuming the Siglent instruments of the "X" series are utilizing the same (or similar) fans and cooling arrangements, you won´t get happy with the Rigol scope, though otherwise I´ld consider it a fairly decent piece of kit.Cheers,Thomas

author: Ginettag20
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 08, 2016, 09:23:51 pm
content: I bought a SDS2202X last week and sending it back. The scope build quality is very good and i dont think the fan was that loud. Unfortunately im am sending it back because the measurement text is so small its unreadable as is much of the other text and i found lots of small software bugs. The other reason im sending it back is because it wont trigger on short pulses 20nS that are widely spaced. Im not sure why this is as it works in single and in normal mode but not on auto. My Old tek scope has no issue with this.I may be wrong to blame this on the scope as I have replaced it with Keysight 3024T. I dont claim to be a expert and I think there may be some pilot error. The cost is still making me ill. However the TEK scope cost me a lot and it is still working 15 years later. So buy cheap and perhaps buy twice.Having said that i still think the SDS2202X was good just not quite good enough

author: Ginettag20
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 08, 2016, 09:29:07 pm
content: Changed my mind - the SDS22002X is really good and im sure anyone would be happy with it. I use a scope most days and am lucky enough to be able to pay the keysight fan boy prices. Mind you not sure I can afford the licenses yet.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 08, 2016, 09:37:46 pm
content: Quote from: Ginettag20 on November 08, 2016, 09:23:51 pmThat is normal and it will be the same on any non-Tektronix oscilloscope. It has to do with the delay after a trigger in auto mode. On most oscilloscopes this delay is very short (a fraction of a second). However on a Tektronix scope this is roughly close to second so even in auto mode it will appear to trigger on widely spaced pulses. There are advantages and disadvantages to the Tektronix way and to be honest I can't say I like it or hate it.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 08, 2016, 09:49:53 pm
content: Quote from: Ginettag20 on November 08, 2016, 09:29:07 pmGood on you.I do know for sure there are some trigger improvements coming in the soon to be released FW (beta tester and forum member told me so) along with improvements to FFT.We'll examine them in some appropriate thread in due course.

author: Ginettag20
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 08, 2016, 10:17:07 pm
content: Yes Thanks for that. I dont want to hog the thread but Keysight have posted a video about the triggering issue. I am not sure if its a problem as you say. I was however concerned when testing my circuit that this short pulse would have been hidden. I new it was there as it is a reset line from 10 mhz 1 second divider. But If i had not known to look for it I would not have found it. the Tek TDS 2022 just shows it no problem.I still think the small text size on the siglient is poor and no way to change font or make it larger. I found the "all measure on" function unreadable. The rigol has a much better screen layout etc as I use one at work.Other annoying thing the sig gen goes into 0.1Mhz steps after 10Mhz.However the siglent is a pleasure to use apart from the font size. - I am getting oldTo be honest I keep thinking I should keep the siglient as well given its half the price of the liciences for the keysight bundle price. I bought the siglent fully loaded with all features.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 09, 2016, 12:33:10 am
content: Let's hope they get the triggering dead right like the SDS1kX series, I sold one to a group of techs, one of which had a Agilent AWG with a little script loaded designed to trip up the trigger on most scopes.He couldn't beat the SDS1kX trigger.Have you had a try adjusting the display brightness or using the only channels that are easier to read ?

author: rf-loop
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 09, 2016, 06:42:54 am
content: Quote from: Ginettag20 on November 08, 2016, 09:23:51 pmAuto trigger have different internal time constant related to trigger rearm. It is very important to exercise with new equipment, specially if have lot of experience with different equipment. It need learn new things but also it need forget some things.Quote from: Ginettag20 on November 08, 2016, 10:17:07 pmWith "rough" step is 1MHz after 10M. With "fine", step is 0.1MHz. Good for fast rough settings... but..Lets hope Siglent name it different and then add also true "fine".Today fine adjustment can do using virtual keyboard what "pop up" after push adjustment knob. There can set frequency with full resolution but this virtual panel is common panel for all. Perhaps it is better if there is special virtual panel for AWG.Trigger is one of most important thing is oscilloscope. It need learn how to use it and how to set it. Auto is good start point and it give easy something on the screen but... but trigger mode Normal is just as its name - normal, it is good to realize.Just very trivial example and done with SDS1102X+ (100MHz) what is as SDS2kX small brother.SDS1102X+6ns wide 500mV pulse every one second.In image color is on for better visualize persistence in this case. 30s persistence is for show possible trigger instabilities. Also of course every single pulse can find time stamped if stop scope and read waveform history buffer, there is of course every captured single pulse separately and there can see looking separate pulses all time stamps that no one is missing.1st image using Sin(x)/x OnSDS1102X+Sin(x)/x Off in 2nd imageSDS1102X+3. image show AWG setting 10.000010 MHz (of course true freq accuracy is related to internal time base but this is other question than setting resolution. With 10MHz this SDS1102X+ individual true freq is around 4ppm high.SDS1102X+4. Every single pulse can find in Waveform History Buffer with time stamps. Every single waveform (in this time these pulses) can look there and time stamps show that no single pulse is missing (of course). Time stamps also show that old HP pulse generator pulse time is not very accurate and it also have "lot" of timing jitter because oscilloscope time accuracy is really in very different higher class.After bit ~ 6 and half minute acquisition I press History and there in wfm history buffer can see every single captured pulse. (after previous images trigger position changed so that pulse do not overlay separate waveforms list.

author: Ginettag20
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 09, 2016, 08:19:46 am
content: Thanks some very good replies. I did not try the input panel as I just assumed it was not supported as the the fine rotary adjustment only worked in 0.1mhz steps.Yes very correct in having to learn the characteristics of any new test equipment they all have there quirks. I have to admit for much of the work I do a simple anolog scope and spectrum analyser are my tools of choice. And 10 years practice with the Tek Tds2022.Given my other mistakes and assumption can the text font size be increased ?It looks good on your pictures but my nose would be touching the screen to get that type of close upYes I did try the brightness control and thought it was a bit disappointing. The text can be made very bright but the waveform was quite dull when in single and normal. Infact when the scope did trigger the short pulse was entirely masked by the vertical centre graticule and I had to move the position control. I think the trace brightness and text and graticule would be better with separate control. I honesty cannot remember if this was the case for the Siglient.The yellow measure text for trace one at the bottom of the screen was very hard for me to read. Other colours may be better.Anyway I'm just wining - it's a great scope for the money and the front panel layout and controls are top drawerChris

author: MrWolf
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 09, 2016, 09:50:07 am
content: Quote from: jemangedeslolos on November 08, 2016, 10:09:02 amThey have new serieshttps://www.picotech.com/oscilloscope/2000/picoscope-2000-overviewHas bots 2 channel MSO version and 4 channel version.1M FFT. That means you get 100Hz bin width at full 100MHz spectrum.Extreme amount of memory (128M on 100MHz version).Downside it drops to 250MS/s when all 4 channels in use. In fact there isno "middle range" Pico in that sense. They either drop to 250MS/s or youhave to buy high end 6000 series (1.25GS/s with 4 channels in use,5GS/s with one channel).In general these scopes are not ergonomical when you do a lot ofbasic analog tinkering. But as soon as digital decoding or mathchannels come in to play theres is no contest. In Pico you canenter quite insane (think 8 math channels, 200 symbols of trigonometry on each)math functions in seconds (copy-paste). And it can actually perform them becauseit is done in PC hardware. "Real scopes" in mainstream (and likely hiend as well) rangephysically lack processing power. So it rather powerful scientificinstrument than oscilloscope.Think that optimal would have it allSome very basic disposable "physical"scope to poke around in unknown, "physical" signal gen(s) and Pico for all the stuff thatinvolves any amount of data processing beyond simple 1-2 operation functions.Edit: Old but interesting PS 6000 review:Long & detailed:http://colinoflynn.com/2013/12/picoscope-6000-6403d-review-comparison/Unboxing:PS software has moved on since then.

author: rf-loop
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 09, 2016, 09:53:34 am
content: Quote from: Ginettag20 on November 09, 2016, 08:19:46 amText size can not change. (at this time)And and also I hope some improvement in this. I'm well over 60 and my eyes are not young man eyes at all.But how to improve it, it need think carefully how to improve visual ergonomics for different situations.It is not only because different eyes including more or less severe color blindness but also different environment. School class room and astronomic observatory with optical telescop with dim red lights or dark are different etc.I have many times thinked that user need access to all colors. Just like in old color CRT Rohde&Schw. where user can select traces, graticule etc all colors separately just as he want. Need only one table in setting menu where user can free select colors just as he want.And this is not even difficult.Font and size need perhaps more designing and optimization.Graticule and trace brightness settings are separate, you can turn graticule from blank to high bright.Mostly, trace brightness is ok in default 50%. This give best scale for intensity gradation. But it is not always best. Example these 1s period narrow pulses. If look these in roll mode example 1s/div (peak mode on also trigger auto for smooth scroll) there optimum is 100% trace brightness. For very fine lines (specially vertical peaks in some cases) it is good to adjust graticule brightness to more low, say example to 15-25%. Or change graticule style.Some times I do not use channel 1 as main channel if I use SDS2k. In some cases visibility for MY individual eyes is perhaps better with other channel color.I have "40 -80 cm" distance glasses for lab use. If I use normal "read" glasses they are too close and if normal car driving glasses, they are terrible for close. Many times I need take glasses away for close. But, then it is too close. So I need "lab" glasses. Never want "multi distance" glasses.Oscilloscope and other equipments designers are many times "young mens and womens" who do not understand anything about human eyes and visibility. Extra problem with chinese are that they are not familiar with our abc reading at all. They do not understand what is "font" and how we perceive the text in western world. They have born to chinese text and they can perceive cinese text. Turn your scope to chinese language and perhaps it is good and easy read (for them). This is same thing what is with big and small letters.One difficult thing to chinese is text font and next is big and small letters. But for font, no one can tell them what is right and what is wrong. If they think chinese language and its "fonts" oh well then they know how important it is but with they own eyes... all western looks same... just as we look chinese.. chinese text looks chinese text and we do not often think what is this and that "font" in chinese text. If take some "old" chinese font, most chinese can not even read it. But western people can happy put it to his equipment and tell to chinese you can select also chinese language. (then they wonder what stupid font this western manufacturer use)This font "war" and hassle have been as long time as I have seen chinese equipment data sheets, text in equipments menu, user manuals and so on. Perhaps one reason is also mr Microsoft who set "default" fonts in some softwares. What a mess.In this image trace brightness is 100% and graticule (if I remember right 20%) lower than 40% default.(6ns pulses every one second, scope in roll mode with Auto trig selected for continuous roll)

author: rf-loop
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 09, 2016, 10:06:50 am
content: Quote from: MrWolf on November 09, 2016, 09:50:07 amPicoScope 2208BmaximumUSB streaming samplerate is9.6 MSa/s(31 MSa/s with SDK)

author: Ginettag20
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 09, 2016, 10:18:35 am
content: Rf-loopYou make many good comments. I find any yellow text very hard to resolve and I'm sure it would be very simple to add a trace colour option. I'd would prefer not to have the probe colours fixed on the bnc probe connectors and even I can count upto 4.Never thought about the Chinese language and font size. This does need attention rigol do this much better.Your right about eye glasses as I think it's time to get my eyes tested again.ngetting old is not much fun.Best regards Chris

author: MrWolf
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 09, 2016, 10:29:28 am
content: Quote from: rf-loop on November 09, 2016, 10:06:50 amWell I hope that you do not think that "real scopes" work in "streaming" modeJust random science paper to clear a picture aboutdead timeetc:https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24784654"In traditional digital storage oscilloscope (DSO), sampled data need to be processed after each acquisition. During data processing, the acquisition is stopped andoscilloscope is blind to the input signal. ""In this paper, a seamless acquisition oscilloscope withoutdead timeisproposed" (2014!)Pico is just the same as any other DSO in that sense. BUT, Pico it at least capable of streamingatsomereasonable rate. Try 31MS/s with your random pick desktop scope.As for math functions - so far I have been fully ok applying math on sample buffer just as it wouldbe with any desktop scope.Think that desktop scopes get enough publicity on this forum. Here may be somepeople that may have more scientific interests that general tinkerer and think I israther ok to inform them that there are tools for that alsoEdit:Dead timehas to do with wfms/s spec of scopes:Rigol DS1054Z - 30kwfms/sSiglent SDS1000X - 60kwfms/sSiglent SDS2000X - 140kwfms/sPico 2000B - 80kwfms/sPico 6000C/D - 170kwfms/sSo you can see that "real" and USB scopes are pretty much in same ballpark.Old EEVBlog rant about USB scopes being crap tech wise is long obsolete.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 09, 2016, 10:58:20 am
content: I have used a Picoscope at one of my employers and it is just clunky to use. Turning a timebase or vertical sensitivity knob is so much easier than using the mouse to pull up a menu and select something different. Also the vertical range of that Picoscope was crap to use. On purpose or not the 1-2-5 vertical scale you find on a normal oscilloscope gives a good readout for signals with common voltage levels like 3.3V, 5V, 12V etc.

author: MrWolf
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 09, 2016, 11:10:51 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on November 09, 2016, 10:58:20 amYou mean like 1-2-5 on attached pic from latest PS software?Also I already said - its not so much for basic analog tinkering if youre not a IT-person.Is see much the same with multimetes. My most used instrument is this:http://www.peaktech.de/productdetail/kategorie/digital---handmultimeter/produkt/p-1020.htmlBut I have 30,000 counts true RMS DMM in a drawerTime from time Igrow a brain, take it from drawer and actually do something non-trivial.Personal goal is to do it more often

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 09, 2016, 11:12:51 am
content: That is full range, not per vertical division (I should have been more clear about that). A small but significant detail! For example 1V/div gives you 8V full range which shows a 5V signal nicely. On the picoscope you'd have to choose 10V full range which compresses the signal to half the screen size. Also on many Picoscopes the maximum input voltage is +/-5V versus a couple of hundred Volts on a normal scope.

author: rf-loop
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 09, 2016, 11:16:06 am
content: Quote from: MrWolf on November 09, 2016, 10:29:28 amYes. And SDS2000X in Sequence mode 500kwfm/s inside one sequence.In most fast speed with Sequence mode, blind/dead time is 1.3us and capture length is in this case 0.7us. (50ns/div)Some Pico models have one nice feature, same as in Siglent. Always in the background working full speed Waveform history buffer.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 09, 2016, 11:18:48 am
content: Still waveforms/s is nice for marketing. They all are optimum case peak values which have no meaning in practical situations. A couple of hundreds waveforms/s (which most practically used settings come down to) is enough to get a clear picture of a signal.

author: MrWolf
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 09, 2016, 11:31:46 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on November 09, 2016, 11:12:51 amOk I see, I never had a problem with this because PC screen is rather big and often there is other data on the screen that I stuff into free area.However there is sort of workaround using zoom (attached) but this results in weird sub-divisions values.

author: MrWolf
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 09, 2016, 11:39:41 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on November 09, 2016, 11:18:48 amWell indeed, my oldest PS 2205 soapbox has only 2kwfms/s and I remember having a problem only once when trying to trigger on some rare events with nanosecond range risetimes (some misses now and then).

author: jemangedeslolos
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 09, 2016, 01:31:03 pm
content: Picoscope seems to have nice products but Im not sure that I can see what I want on the screen easier or more faster without knob to play with.I also think that the PicoScope are a little too overpriced.a 4 channel 200 Mhz ( 3000 series ) = 1815€2025€ with logical analyser2165€ for the 5000 series and they have no screen, no HMI and no processing power.I understand that this type of device has advantages.I'm young ( euhhh 32 years old) , I handle PCs since I was little.But for once, I'm not sure that for a lab instrument, this is the best choice.SDS2204X + Option Bundle is around 1850€ !!Hard to beat.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 09, 2016, 01:36:20 pm
content: Quote from: jemangedeslolos on November 09, 2016, 01:31:03 pmNo it is not hard to beat: The GW Instek GDS-2204E is cheaper and I'd say it is also way better.

author: jemangedeslolos
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 09, 2016, 02:17:04 pm
content: Yes and no.I read your review ( very good review as I said ) and it seems to be a very nice scope, really.I found video on youtube ( and eevblab I think ) where I could see a very responsive UI.But :- You mention in your review annoying noise. It is unacceptable for me.This is one reason why I change my DSO after only one year. I don't know how much I can sell my DS2202A full optionned.- In France, I can touch the GW Instek around 1300€-1400€ but for that price, there is no 16 channel logical analyser and AWG.Without those options, the Siglent is at 1564€The Siglent seems to be the upper range but maybe just on paper....Not so easy to choose

author: pascal_sweden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 09, 2016, 02:31:38 pm
content: Is the GW-Instek noisy? How noisy?

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 09, 2016, 02:36:49 pm
content: The noise from the GDS2204E is easy to fix if it is annoying; the problem is that the case may resonate due to fan fibration. A couple of rubber fan mounts do the trick and no warranty void stickers. But you have to realise the noisiest device in my office is an external hard drive somewhere on the floor so I may not be the best reference when it comes to acceptable noise.The AWG inside the SDS2000X series is of very limited use (I used to own an SDS2204). Without the dedicated function generator user interface it is tedious to setup. If I where you I'd read the thread about the SDS2000X very carefully because there are still several bugs mentioned and some features look good on paper but may not be implemented in a useful way. If you choose to buy an SDS2000X be sure you can return it and test it thouroughly immediately. To avoid dissapointment assume that what isn't working today is never going to be fixed.If you really want an MSO then going after a used Agilent/Keysight could be a good option. Keysight has many excellent deals for used scopes in their Ebay store at the moment which can be hacked as well. Be sure to check Ebay prices and make them an offer instead of paying their (slighly high) asking price.

author: jemangedeslolos
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 09, 2016, 04:28:02 pm
content: The AWG is coming with the option bundle. It's almost free if you buy the 16 channel logical analyser.I have a dedicated SDG2082X so my needs are covered.You seem to be a very pessimistic person.Probably for good reason, Im still a "young player"But I looked at the SDS2000X and it seems that new firmware exist and fixes things ( but not all ).I didn't know it was possible to remove the fan without losing the warranty.It is not possible on both Rigol and Siglent because of the warranty sticker.I think it is more easy on the Siglent than the Rigol thanks to the Dave's Teardown but I want a warranty.It is why I don't want second hand scope.

author: JPortici
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 09, 2016, 04:42:55 pm
content: Quote from: jemangedeslolos on November 09, 2016, 04:28:02 pmsame. but i don't dislike boat anchors because old dso (so single shot) still means connectivity and high bandwidth bandwidth / priceand second hand as guaranteed refurbished is not that bat. it's not for example a refurbished apple from the apple store (for only 300$ less!!!). we are talking serious discounts.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 09, 2016, 04:56:54 pm
content: Warranty is overrated because you depend on the good will of a seller. The most money I ever lost on test equipment was with a brand new scope.

author: JPortici
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 09, 2016, 04:58:40 pm
content: i tend to buy this stuff with VAT number so i only have one year warranty anyway (from the manufacturer)

author: jemangedeslolos
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 09, 2016, 06:01:41 pm
content: Brand new scope offering 3 years warranty but...when purshased from an official distributor.Big names like Tektronix said that the manufacturer warranty is not transferable.So I don't know how it works with second hand instrument ?It will be sexy to have a Keysight DSOX3024T for 2000€ on my bench but Iam not lucky enought to find that on ebayAnd personally, I prefer to have a brand new scope.It may be stupid but psychologically, I would be more peaceful.Maybe one day, I will buy brand new InfiniiVision 4000 X-SeriesI will put in my Ferrari' trunk to put it on my marble bench thanks to the electronic I sell designed with Siglent or GW Instek scope

author: JPortici
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 09, 2016, 06:12:41 pm
content: Quote from: jemangedeslolos on November 09, 2016, 06:01:41 pmwhat do you mean? what do they mean? this is the EU. if you have the receipt you have the warranty. things may be different with an invoice with a different name on it though but the warranty should still be appliable

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 09, 2016, 06:30:46 pm
content: Quote from: jemangedeslolos on November 09, 2016, 06:01:41 pmAFAIK you can buy extra warranty from Keysight for a second hand instrument (if it is still supported).

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 09, 2016, 07:14:58 pm
content: Quote from: MrWolf on November 09, 2016, 10:29:28 amThe standard scopes of the science community have been and still are mostly LeCroys. I've seen a few PicoScopes in a handful of scientific applications where a remote digitizer was needed so the separation of PC/Display and sampler was of advantage, and it appears what they do they do well, but they aren't exactly high performance scopes or offering a lot in terms of waveform analysis.

author: MrWolf
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 09, 2016, 08:13:20 pm
content: Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on November 09, 2016, 07:14:58 pmNot onlycommunitydoes science. There are also lot of barely financed people in the sheds working on a new paradigm shifts.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2016, 07:25:06 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on November 08, 2016, 09:37:46 pmI need to remember to test for this on prospective DSOs.I got caught by a similar issue when examining very narrow pulses from a GPS 1PPS signal but was saved because the trigger indicator on my oscilloscope was flashing so I knew *something* was there. Of course most modern DSOs *lack* a trigger indicator because, um, why?

author: jemangedeslolos
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2016, 09:35:05 am
content: Quote from: JPortici on November 09, 2016, 06:12:41 pmI don't know what that really means.Is that with sufficient evidence of honesty, the warranty is still supported ?But it is written black on white in their warranty conditions and I don't want to take the risk of paying the Keysight or Tektronix service because the warranty is no longer supported.Repair costs more than the DSOThere are many examples on the forum.But I also prefer to buy brand new scope for work.It is the only way to know what I am paying for.You can be lucky...or not with second hand.And don't forget that one of the reasons why I want to change is to have a quiet scope !I'm not sure the best way is to buy a 2 or 3 years old FAN who has worked in maybe hard environments.

author: JPortici
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2016, 11:36:04 am
content: Quote from: jemangedeslolos on November 10, 2016, 09:35:05 amnot sure about france but here a contract to be valid can't go against the law. here customer protection laws apply

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2016, 11:57:19 am
content: Quote from: jemangedeslolos on November 10, 2016, 09:35:05 amAt least with the big brands there is no need to worry, warranty from Keysight, LeCroy, R&S etc is to the device not the buyer, and is honored even if you bought your instrument 5th hand. Plus its generally international warranty so you're covered even if you bought the instrument from abroad.I'm not sure with Tektronix but I'd be surprised if they are any different (but then why would you want to buy Tek in the first place, considering that they have by far the worst portfolio with stale, lacklustre, slow and overpriced scopes?).B-brands like Rigol and Siglent can be different, i.e. warranty may be limited to a certain country or area, depend on purchase from an authorized dealer, and may be limited to the original buyer.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2016, 11:59:03 am
content: Quote from: JPortici on November 10, 2016, 11:36:04 amThese laws generally deal with the contract between consumer and seller, not between consumer and manufacturer (where regularly no contract exists). This is pretty much EU wide.

author: jemangedeslolos
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2016, 12:42:16 pm
content: To be honest, I haven't read Keyseight, Lecroy or R&S warranties conditions.I read Tektronix warranties only because I sold an old TDS last year and wanted to know if the next buyer would be protected.http://www.tek.com/service/warranties/warranty-18On paper, NO.Maybe it is different in real life ?Maybe I will consider buying a used oscilloscope in the future but I need an oscilloscope quickly on which I can count.I will not wait 3 months before finding a rarity on Ebay

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2016, 12:50:48 pm
content: If you are worried about warranty: GW Instek offers a limited lifetime manufacturer warranty on their equipment for the original owner. The warranty ends 5 years after they stop producing the model.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2016, 01:49:30 pm
content: Quote from: jemangedeslolos on November 10, 2016, 12:42:16 pmNo, if the warranty conditions limit warranty to the original purchaser then that is the case. However, older instruments will be treated in accordance with the warranty conditions that were current when the thing was sold, which may have been different.But as I said, this is less of a problem with Keysight, LeCroy or R&S as they generally don't do such shenanigans.QuoteThere's no need to wait 3 months, for Agilent/Keysight just ask for the S/N and then go to the Keysight website where you can check the warranty status. For LeCroy, contact their support and they'll tell you what warranty is on a scope.Also, both manufacturers allow you to buy fresh warranty for a scope you bought 2nd hand, provided it is fully functional and still within the mainstream support period. Even when the original warranty has long expired. Keysight calls them "repair agreements", LeCroy just calls it "warranty". And the costs, especially for Keysight gear, can be surprisingly low, and often a younger 2nd hand unit plus repair agreement can give you the same as a brand new unit at a much lower price.Quote from: nctnico on November 10, 2016, 12:50:48 pmReally? That's a very generous warranty offer, and it shows that they clearly have some confidence in their products.

author: jemangedeslolos
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2016, 09:23:54 am
content: Hello,My English is bad.I didn't mean that I should wait 3 or 6 months for warranty.I wanted to say that I didn't want to wait 3 months before finding my DSO on ebay because right now I can't find anything.Unless you have good tips to share ?

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2016, 01:32:09 pm
content: Are you using the American Ebay site (Ebay.com)? If not, that is the Ebay site to look for equipment. What you see on Ebay depends on which Ebay site you are using and how much is offered locally. From a European Ebay site you usually don't see items from abroad unless there are (almost) no local offerings.