Help running this 220v machine in my house - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: administr4tor
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2023, 06:52:50 pm
content: hello,I am in North America, I have this plug and there is 240v in this plugI want to buy this Steam cleaner which is 3000w@ 230v but the pin is South asian/china connector pin,is it possible to run that steamer in North america,Please help me out friends. Product linkhttps://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005003441027124.html

author: BeBuLamar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2023, 07:27:11 pm
content: You can use this adapterhttps://www.amazon.com/Wadoy-Adapter-Locking-Electrical-Generator/dp/B0719S2FCV/ref=asc_df_B0719S2FCV/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=242041198988&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=11297272888369245175&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9026816&hvtargid=pla-421240570976&th=1But the device must not draw more than 30A which it shouldn't because it's rated at 3000W.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2023, 07:40:44 pm
content: Yes it's possible, just install the correct plug on it. I wouldn't bother with adapters.

author: administr4tor
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2023, 07:57:55 pm
content: how will it work? the AC in those NEMA are two single phase 120v right? and the AC the device would work on single 230v AC.Please remove this confusion.this machine can work in 120v in USA but with converter adapter but it wont be then 3000watts then, it will be only 1400watts or so.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2023, 08:19:18 pm
content: What you would do is wire the "L" and "N" conductors from the steamer to the "H1" and "H2" pins in the North America (NEMA) plug. You would connect the Earth conductor from the steamer to the Ground pin on the NEMA plug. You can ignore the neutral pin on the plug (if it has one).For safety, you should also check that the "L" and "N" conductors on the steamer are properly isolated from any exposed parts. You should also check that any exposed metal parts are connected to the earth or ground conductor.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2023, 08:25:32 pm
content: Quote from: administr4tor on January 09, 2023, 07:57:55 pmBecause it's how electricity works. The only difference between 240V in North America and 240V in other parts of the world is where the earth potential is connected. In Europe it's 240V to ground, in the USA/Canada it's 240V between two wires that area each 120V from ground. 240V is 240V, the appliance doesn't care, it's just a heating element.If you run a 240V heating appliance on 120V you won't get half the rated power, you'll get 1/4 the rated power so in this case it would only be 750W.

author: administr4tor
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2023, 08:26:18 pm
content: is there any adapter to do that? or I can make my own

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2023, 08:27:41 pm
content: Didn't somebody already post a link to an adapter? Otherwise just cut the plug off and install one that matches your receptacle.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2023, 08:35:15 pm
content: Quote from: administr4tor on January 09, 2023, 08:26:18 pmI would recommend to cut the plug off and wire up a proper NEMA plug that fits your socket. Adapters are always dodgy. If the NEMA plug has both neutral and ground pins, make sure to connect the green/yellow earth wire to ground and not to neutral.FYI, I have done this with a 240 V, 3000 W appliance of my own, using a NEMA 6-20 plug and socket.

author: administr4tor
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2023, 08:44:13 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on January 09, 2023, 08:35:15 pmplease can you draw a picture in paint or anywhere so I can follow it what to do with that chinese pin and 4 holes NEMA.Appreciate it.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2023, 08:47:40 pm
content: QuoteIf its 3kw on 240v its gonna be nearer 750w on 120v

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2023, 09:09:33 pm
content: Quote from: administr4tor on January 09, 2023, 08:44:13 pmHire an electrician to rewire the plug.so many ways to fail and cause a danger, that cannot be communicated in a picture marked-up in paint

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2023, 09:24:54 pm
content: Also bear in mind that the color coding of wires in North America is different from what may be found in other parts of the world.On an imported 220/230/240 V appliance you will commonly find brown=line, blue=neutral, green/yellow=earth. In North America you will find black=line 1, red=line 2, white=neutral, green=ground.So the way you typically wire up a 240 V plug is brown to L1, blue to L2, green to E, nothing to N.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2023, 11:05:11 pm
content: Quote from: administr4tor on January 09, 2023, 08:44:13 pmIf it is not obvious by now, I would suggest finding someone knowledgeable to help you. The most important thing is to connect the green wire to the ground terminal, in any plug that screw should be colored green so that it's obvious. The other two wires in the cord will probably be brown and blue, those go to the two live terminals in the plug, it doesn't matter which way around.

author: Ian.M
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2023, 11:18:26 pm
content: Its a Chinese local market budget steam cleaner built into a fricking toolbox!What even makes you think its got a ground wire?I'd also bet the trigger switch on the gun isn't IP68 sealed, and if that's a 240V circuit (rather than isolated low voltage), I wouldn't care to use it.It needs to be internally inspected by a competent appliance repair tech, and probably rewired to bring it up to western safety standards, if that's even possible.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2023, 11:36:41 pm
content: Quote from: administr4tor on January 09, 2023, 07:57:55 pmYour picture of the "Chinese" plug is incorrectly labelled.Although the Chinese standard plug is a little bit different to Australian plugs, it is "plug in" compatible.The non-angled pin is [b[NEVER connected to Neutral---it is the"EARTH"(ground or PE)pin.I'm not sure if the Chinese convention for the other pins is the same as that in Australia, but in Oz, the standard,if looking at the pins of a plugisRIGHTpin Active,LEFTpin Neutral, non-angled pin, Earth.Note: After thinking I had that the correct way around, I still got Active & Neutral reversed. The Capitalised version is the correct one!If you are looking at a power point on the wall, the positions of Active & Neutral are the mirror image of the above, but the Earth remains the same.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2023, 12:02:16 am
content: Quote from: Ian.M on January 09, 2023, 11:18:26 pmI've also just noticed that the wand appears to have a telescopic sight on it?

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2023, 12:07:56 am
content: Quote from: Ian.M on January 09, 2023, 11:18:26 pmIt's probably grounded, even a lot of that random Chinese stuff isn't THAT bad, but it is worth checking. If the front panel is grounded then electically speaking it should be fairly safe. It's not the sort of thing you'd leave running unattended.

author: jonpaul
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2023, 12:24:54 am
content: I advise you to avoid 240V 3kva ChiCom cleaner....Mains voltage, water, steam, questionable connections,Lack of safety earth or insulation fault can be lethal.Just rent a non Chinese machine locallyj

author: Pfriemler
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2023, 12:49:30 pm
content: Nobody is concerned about the voltage rating?3000W @ 220V = 16,13 Ohm, 240V -> 3570 W, 20% more heat.and: simply no idea why this is questioned in "Test equipment"...

author: Ian.M
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2023, 01:01:22 pm
content: You'd be surprised how much excess power water heating elements can typically withstand, if kept free from scale.

author: Pfriemler
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2023, 01:26:42 pm
content: Great stuff. Had much fun viewing it. Made my dayNevertheless, it's a risk, if even a small one: due to the tolerances a 230V device has to withstand 253V without any damages. Whatever it is, kettle or TV.

author: wasedadoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2023, 03:28:45 pm
content: Quote from: Pfriemler on January 10, 2023, 12:49:30 pmPower only scales as square of the voltage when the resistance is constant. In the case of a heating element the resistance increases somewhat with temperature meaning the calculated 20% is likely higher than actual.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2023, 04:06:41 pm
content: Quote from: wasedadoc on January 10, 2023, 03:28:45 pmBut the temperature of the heating element remains close to the temperature of boiling water.I have several electric kettles and on the rating plate they all say "220 V 2520 W to 240 V 3000 W".

author: Ian.M
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2023, 04:19:16 pm
content: I hope its actually *got* a heating element and isn't an electrode boiler . . .

author: administr4tor
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2023, 04:48:01 pm
content: yes, it does, I have this smaller version of the steam cleaner for last 2 years, using it without any issues but its not that good/hot enough and the power seems too less for the cleaning I want to doI have 110v version of this.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2023, 06:10:41 pm
content: I don't share the concern some have about these cheap machines. A heating element is not a complex device, even the cheap ones tend to work fine. I see no reason to believe that it uses anything other than a standard off the shelf element of the sort used in instant hot water heaters and such. I would open the lid and inspect the assembly and make sure the earth ground is connected but other than that just use it. I've rigged up far more sketchy/dangerous stuff for my own use.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2023, 06:17:50 pm
content: Not to mention, China has been known to execute people who sell dangerous products on the domestic market, so there is that too...

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2023, 06:22:19 pm
content: I'm actually tempted to buy one of these things myself, I was not aware portable domestic machines even existed. Looks like it might be handy for spot cleaning underneath cars to remove the sludge and grime that accumulates from oil leaks and such.

author: administr4tor
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2023, 06:55:08 pm
content: exactly the reason i bought small yellow one for. I like things to be clean

author: mjkuwp
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 10, 2023, 08:07:59 pm
content: Quote from: administr4tor on January 09, 2023, 07:57:55 pmno, there are not really two phases in a USA house, it is split phase. I am not 100% certain of what the nominal voltage is but in my house (USA) I often measure 125VAC. We have two sides to our electrical box and various circuits are taken from one side of the box or the other at random (or maybe somebody plans it). if I were to measure voltage between the two Hot wires of circuits taken from opposite sides of the main box, then I will get 240VAC or maybe even 250VAC.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Split-phase_electric_power

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2023, 08:45:41 pm
content: Quote from: mjkuwp on January 10, 2023, 08:07:59 pmThe nominal voltage in the USA has varied over the years but for at least the past several decades it has been 120/240V. I forget what the allowable tolerance percentage is, but 125V is near the upper end IIRC and back in the incandescent era that would result in a significant lifespan reduction but increased efficiency of the bulbs.To sum up split phase power in a nutshell, houses are fed by a 240V transformer with a center tapped secondary and this center tap is connected to ground and neutral. This gives you 120V from either side to ground and 240V between them.

author: J-R
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2023, 02:38:21 am
content: IMHO, whether you call 240V or even 208V single phase or two/dual phase really should come down to whether the neutral is part of the load's circuit or not.Three phase grid/commercial is "blatantly" three phase because there are three separate AC waveforms on three separate wires, 120 degrees out of "phase". We can easily view this because we can pick an independent reference point when making our voltage over time graphs. This definition hasn't changed since the 1800s.For residential, we center-tap the secondary of the grid's step-down transformer to split 240V into two 120V outputs, each 180 degrees from each other. If we graph our voltage over time for this using neutral (& ground to some extent) as our reference point, we see the SAME sine waves as the three phase, with the ONLY difference being that there are only two phases 180 degrees from each other, instead of three phases at 120 degrees from each other.So while it's true that for N.A. residential there is only a single grid phase feeding your house transformer, we are essentially creating another "phase" by splitting the transformer.Older electrical codes allowed 240V outlets with NO neutral. In this case, there can be only one phase as far as the load is concerned, because it can't use ground as part of the circuit. When graphing voltage over time, there is only a single sine waveform visible.However, if I come along and reference ground with my two test equipment probes, I will see two waveforms, one on each wire, 180 degrees from each other, AKA two phase.Newer electrical codes add a neutral back in to the 240V outlets, so again in this case you have two phases/waveforms. There is just no getting around it.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2023, 03:00:57 am
content: Quote from: J-R on January 11, 2023, 02:38:21 amIt's still called single phase power, a single split phase, not 2 phase. It's derived from one of the three phases that are present outside on the utility pole, though often a residential neighborhood will only have one phase run to it off of the arterial.As far as I know you're still allowed to have 240V outlets without neutral. The change to the code mandates a neutral if you have any 120V loads on it. For example electric ranges used to typically use ground as neutral for the oven light and the clock and such, clothes dryers did the same with the interior light and timer. Modern dryers and ranges need a 4 prong plug and ground is used ONLY as a safety feature.

author: J-R
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2023, 03:48:22 am
content: You can call it what you want, but it's still two phases.208V created from two grid phases is called single phase, for the reason I stated, which is because there is no neutral.So it has nothing to do with whether the grid is providing you one, two or three phases.Ultimately, Sparky can't have it both ways, either 208V is two phase, and residential is single phase because of the grid connection, or 208V is single phase and residential is two phase because of the output waveforms present.I don't see the logic in referencing some invisible upstream supply when talking about what is sitting in front of you. You have what you have...

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2023, 04:18:41 am
content: No, it's not, when it's 180 degrees of separation it cannot create a rotating field and it's considered a single phase, calling it whatever you want creates confusion. Talk to any electrician and they'll tell you it's single phase. 2 phase power distribution did exist at one point, but it was replaced by 3 phase which can carry more power over the same wires.https://ctlsys.com/support/two-phase_electrical_service/"Residential electric service in the United States (120/240 Vac) is sometimes called two-phase service but this is NOT correct. It is only single-phase, since both line voltages are derived from a single phase of a distribution transformer with a center tapped neutral and are 180° out of phase with each other."https://electronics.stackexchange.com/questions/611732/why-is-north-american-residential-power-called-single-phase

author: DavidKo
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2023, 05:13:20 am
content: There was a lot of talking about 220V vs. 230V during the switching period from 220V -> 230V and it was said that it should be not an issue since the devices were made for 220V +-10%. I do not want to say that this is a common praxis nowadays, but as rule of thumb it can be taken since the voltage in the network changes during the day and week day (cooking on Sundays vs. nights in working days) and usually some compromises on power lines are done.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2023, 05:31:23 am
content: Quote from: james_s on January 11, 2023, 04:18:41 amIf you divide the unit circle into thirds, you get three vectors 120° apart, giving three phases (and three phasors).If you divide the unit circle into halves, you get two vectors 180° apart, giving two phases (and two phasors).For electricians and power engineers it is a split phase supply, but for physicists and mathematicians there are two phases 180° apart. Trying to pretend this is not true is like trying to re-define pi as being equal to 3.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2023, 05:35:58 am
content: Quote from: IanB on January 11, 2023, 05:31:23 amI'm not saying that isn't true, I'm saying it's called single phase power. Physicists and mathematicians aren't really relevant to this particular discussion. The topic isn't mathematical theory, it's practical application. In practical application, the correct name is single phase, the panel will say single phase, the distribution transformers will be labeled single phase, in this context 2 phase means something different.

author: Nusa
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2023, 06:20:30 am
content: Quote from: james_s on January 11, 2023, 03:00:57 amExisting installs are grandfathered (3-pin dryer plugs are common in older houses), but haven't been legal for new installs since the mid-90's.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2023, 06:25:50 am
content: Quote from: Nusa on January 11, 2023, 06:20:30 amBut that's because dryers universally (or nearly so) have 120V loads that require a neutral. Can't you still have a 240V receptacle without neutral for something like an air compressor or welder that is purely 240V? The 240V EV chargers I wired up for a friend a few years ago didn't have a neutral, they came with 3 pin 30A plugs.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2023, 06:49:08 am
content: Quote from: james_s on January 11, 2023, 06:25:50 amI have a NEMA 6-20 receptacle for my 240 V appliances. I can't think of a reason why that would be a problem for anything that doesn't require 120 V internally.

author: J-R
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2023, 07:26:16 am
content: It's just never going to be logical to call N.A. residential "single" phase, because you would need to differentiate between that and a 230V/240V single phase service with only a SINGLE hot, for example as found in some countries.However, "split-phase" seems like a reasonable compromise to both "parties" involved. I'm sure that is why it came into being.

author: Nusa
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2023, 07:42:31 am
content: Quote from: IanB on January 11, 2023, 06:49:08 amIt's not, since that's two hots and a ground. And I bet your dryer isn't one of those appliances.The now-banned dryer receptacles (NEMA 10-30) are two hots and a neutral -- the 3-wire dryer cord typically connects the neutral to the dryer chassis to double as a less-safe safety ground. In what is often a wet area. The lack of an independant earth ground is the issue.

author: administr4tor
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2023, 05:12:01 pm
content: The seller has replied that the machine can work between 220v and 240V

author: administr4tor
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2023, 07:38:55 pm
content: I got the machine today.i connected it and its running at 13.5A out of nema 14-50 plug.I also connected it to 120v receptacle and it started running at 6A

author: jonpaul
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2023, 08:51:57 pm
content: dangerous Chinese appliances, bad record of fire, poor wiring unsafe insulationI would not use such junk in my house.Check out the approval of the Chinese appliances, the safety compliance trademark may be counterfeitThus no valid UL, ETL, CE safety test.Incase of any incident you will be responsible and liableBe safe!j

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2023, 09:02:33 pm
content: QuoteWell theres a surprise, ole ohms law still works

author: shapirus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2023, 09:22:24 pm
content: What a useful thread. Now I know that if I ever move to N.A., I can bring in some of my 230V home made equipment and be able to use it without a step-up transformer, provided that the house or apartment has a split-phase wall socket, which it is supposed to have if it has a washing and (or?) drying machine, is that correct?

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2023, 09:29:35 pm
content: Yes, you can conveniently set up your lab in the kitchen or in the laundry room.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2023, 09:32:19 pm
content: As long as nothing is relying on the mains frequency for timing

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2023, 09:35:40 pm
content: There's no timer, it's nothing more than a heating element with a bimetal thermostat.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2023, 09:43:06 pm
content: Quotei was replying to the 2 posts directly above mine

author: administr4tor
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2023, 09:45:26 pm
content: Quote from: jonpaul on February 22, 2023, 08:51:57 pmthankssomuch for warning.these are things i am doing- I am using this machine only in 14-50P nema plug rated for cooking oven 50Amps- I am not using it continously for hours and hours, since its steam cleaner, I have to start and stop it many times- the machine is always in my view- i have fire extinguisher in my reach 24x7can someone please tell me if14awg wireis good enough to extend this machine cord?factory cord is short for my usage from NEMA plug

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2023, 09:55:26 pm
content: I wouldn't hesitate to use it. Actually I'm tempted to buy one myself for cleaning stuff underneath cars.#14 wire is good for 15 amps, if this thing is 3kW it will draw 12.5A so you should be fine. Depending on the length you might want to go with #12 wire, it's not *that* much more expensive. I like SJOOW or SOOW for this type of thing.

author: shapirus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2023, 10:27:16 pm
content: Quote from: themadhippy on February 22, 2023, 09:32:19 pmYeah that's obvious. The only thing that comes to my mind are magnetic transformers, but as far as I understand the theory correctly, those designed for 50Hz will generally be happy to work at 60Hz. It's the opposite that would not necessarily be true.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2023, 10:34:51 pm
content: Quote from: shapirus on February 22, 2023, 10:27:16 pmYes, any 50Hz transformer ought to be fine on 60Hz, it will run cooler and be more efficient, same with motors and solenoids. The opposite may not be true, if there is just enough iron for 60Hz it will saturate at the lower frequency.

author: administr4tor
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2023, 10:46:53 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on February 22, 2023, 09:55:26 pmJames i need 30-40 feet of length extended. do you think 14awg will work?

author: shapirus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2023, 11:01:16 pm
content: Quote from: administr4tor on February 22, 2023, 10:46:53 pmPower lost as heat in this extension cord will be about 30W at 12.5A or 30W/(40ft*2) = ~0.4 W/ft, or double that if you calculate this for the 2-wire units of length. This isn't going to heat it up to a noticeable level, unless it's kept in a roll, and the voltage drop is going to be about 1%, so it should be ok.