Entry level professional Pick and place machine suggestion needed - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: dimbmw
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2018, 06:40:17 pm
content: HiWe are using TVM 920 now by GiHe, and we are considering a second machine. We are a little tired of issues with the TVM 920, the latest one being described herehttps://www.eevblog.com/forum/manufacture/issues-with-tvm920-pick-and-place-machine-aligning-components-with-small-pitch/Seems that we kind of lost faith in cheap Chinese machines - and thinking maybe we should buy something better?Is there anything affordable on the market? Like entry level professional machine ? How much are they going for?We need to reliably assemble small batches (100-200-300 pcs) of boards with parts like 0603, qfn and not really bother debugging glitches in software.We don't want to buy used.Thanks!

author: jmelson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2018, 09:07:54 pm
content: Quote from: dimbmw on July 30, 2018, 06:40:17 pmYou may be making a big mistake here. I know a number of people who are VERY happy using used "professional" P&P machines.I bought an older Philips CSM84 and use it in somewhat lighter service than you intend, but have done quite well in 11 years of use.My machine doesn't have vision, and that may well have been a mistake, the alignment on high-density chips is not quite good enough. Otherwise, it has worked very well. I've had a few minor things go bad on the machine (a sensor went out, intermittently at first, some hoses cracked_ and one major issue with copper dust shorting out the commutator on the rotation motor. Took a long time to figure out what was wrong, didn't take real long to fix, once I knew what to do.I have built several thousand boards with my machine. I know a couple of the other guys who have similar machines have done many times that with used machines.The feeders available with many of these Chinese machines are really a joke. The feeders on my Philips, for instance, are not perfect, but they really do a good job, even with a lot of variability in cover tape pulling force required, and other issues.So, some of these older "professional grade" machines solved almost all of these issues 15 - 20 years ago.As for "software issues", at least my CSM doesn't really have ANY! It just does what it does, and if it totally stops, it is because of errors/conflicts in the placement files. For instance, there are certain feeders that cannot be reached by certain nozzles, and if you program that, it will get an error (usually on loading the files, but there are a couple cases that can get past the sanity checks).Other than stuff like that which are really user errors, it never goes haywire, misplaces parts or anything like that.Jon

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2018, 09:38:38 pm
content: If you want solidquality & relibality, and have space, then unless you have at least 20x the budget of the Chinese machines, then used is probably your only option. You get what you pay for.If the main issue is poor software, then maybe look at OpenPnP - this has been ported to at least one of the Chinese machines.

author: dimbmw
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 31, 2018, 06:04:45 am
content: Quote from: jmelson on July 30, 2018, 09:07:54 pmJon, maybe you are right and I have to consider some used machines as well. But to me it looks pretty much as a lottery to buy a machine with the unknown bunch of issues (that probably caused the previous owner to sell it to me in the first place). I am just tired of wasting time on fixing things. I am sure with the old worn out machine everything will cause issues, including it's software (windows-95? lol).

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 31, 2018, 06:07:24 am
content: Gambling on a cheap old machine is not the only option - there are dealers who offer used machines with support, obviously not as cheap.

author: dimbmw
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 31, 2018, 06:41:11 am
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on July 31, 2018, 06:07:24 amCan you suggest any reputable ones with an online inventory to check them out? Thanks!

author: dimbmw
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 31, 2018, 06:44:08 am
content: By the way how is the yamaha yv100 ?As we have plenty of Yamaha clones feeders that we can use maybe yamaha yv100 is a great choice?

author: SMTech
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 31, 2018, 08:37:42 am
content: Nothing wrong with a 2nd user machine, the biggest downsides probably being feeders as many people stick with a manufacturer and keep the good ones when they upgrade and the fact finance is much harder to get against older capital equipment. On paper these things are written off the balance sheet pretty quickly. However if going 2nd user I wouldn't go too old or too cheap, talk to some of the people selling new machines they might have something PX or perhaps might have something they will give you if you buy new feeders (this was a serious option I was given by MyData several years ago). If you choose something from the last 10 years you should be able to find something pretty capable, Yamaha/IPulse, Juki, Europlacer, Samsung,Universal & Mirae should all have machines that suit you, Fuji, Assembleon & Siemens from that era might perhaps be more commonly regarded as higher volume machines, that could mean if you find some they have been worked very hard.In the US there seem to be several largish companies handling equipment like this, they all come up on Google or Smtnet so I would look them up, have a chat see what they have how helpful they seem, etc. A 2nd user machine will need more assistance than a new one so proximity of them or an engineer also perhaps a factor.New, I think there a clear hierarchy you can probably ascertain just by looking at the specs of whats out there. If we are ignoring Chinese machines, at the bottom we have the Polish Mechatronik (slow/basic), then DDM,TWM Quadra, Autotronik (Manncorp in the US), Evest (again Manncorp in the US a basic copycat really of similar looking machines just not as well finished), Essemtec (the cream of the mid/entry level I would say) after that you can take your pick from many machines with various pros and cons depending on what you are trying to build. Build up a list of your projects what parts they use, what tapes or trays they come in, how tall they are and depending on what that tells you some machines will be more tempting than others.In 2012 we paid ~£100k GBP for an Essemtec Paraquda with a reasonable handful of CLM feeders, a similarly loaded MyData was more like £130k as was an iPulse, Europlacer came in slightly above that but now they have the IICO which probably changes things a little. I didn't get quotes for Samsung or Yamaha but I suspect they were much the same as the iPulse. Juki would have needed 2 machines just to fit the feeders as their basic machine is small and the feeders slot hungry in the larger sizes, if I hadn't needed that many feeders loaded at once the pricing was about the same.If you don't want to run conveyored, I would suggest an Essemtec Fox/Paraquda is pretty much unbeatable in standalone config, however beyond a 5-6kcph real world placement speed standalone is a silly way to do things. However take a bit of polish off an Essemtec and you get the Autotronik machines which are quite a bit cheaper, I would suggest getting up close with both. In 2012 you could have added Dima to the list, I don't think they sold much if anything into the US, but they were quite a nice machine and 20% cheaper than Essemtec, Nordson has killed of the p&p side of the business however which leaves question marks over 2nd user ones.Important to remember tho' headline prices mean little here, like a car or a house you usually lease or finance these things so choose a repayment that works for you.

author: jmelson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 31, 2018, 08:53:59 pm
content: Quote from: dimbmw on July 31, 2018, 06:04:45 amWell, all of these machines are massively complicated (mostly the feeders because there will be a BUNCH of them) so a bit of maintenance WILL be needed. My old-school P&P cost somebody over $100K when new, and a BUNCH of top-notch engineering went into such a machine. If properly maintained, there may be a few issues, but they should generally run for months without major breakdowns. You don't have to accept a broken machine, you can get one that was in current use, and even travel to see it in operation. That will save you headaches when you first set it up.Yes, there are some machines that use off the shelf PCs. That can be a blessing and a curse. The plus is that you can probably keep an old PC running for a long time and get one or two spare systems of the same vintage to deal with breakdowns.If it has Windows 95 or such, just make sure you have a complete image backup on a spare drive that you keep in a fire safe.If it has MFM disk drives, that could be a real problem. If it has PATA (IDE) disks, you can get adapters to use SATA disks with it.My Philips CSM84 has what is essentially an 80286 PC, but it is on a custom Yamaha board. All the software is on EPROMS, and the setup and placement data is on battery-backed static RAMs. I have backed all this up.Jon

author: mrpackethead
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2018, 02:30:44 am
content: Quote from: dimbmw on July 31, 2018, 06:44:08 amI have two of them, they are super reliable. I cqan reliably place down to 0402, and QFNs at 0.4mm. They run old software ( its DOS like ). I got these at an auction and spent a resonable amoutn of time getting them up and going, without much documentation or training. They work relaibly, but you'll have to invest time into learning how they work, and you need a fair amoutn of space for htme. If you can invest the time and space, and dont' need to to tiny then these are going to eat any of the low cost chinese machiens. They also weigh in at 1500kg.

author: forrestc
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 01, 2018, 02:50:02 am
content: I have a manncorp/Autotronik MC384 I bought new a few years ago, the current equivalent being a MC385V1V. Good support, no meaningful problems.