My Dream Job - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Shenandoah
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2013, 09:02:50 pm
content: Hello all,While I'm struggling and learning the hard way I'm very interested in getting a first time job as as an IC/chip designer. the problem is that my degree is not EE, it's in software. Is there any recommended references on this area so that I can pass an interview or a test?Thanks.

author: Bored@Work
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2013, 09:33:31 pm
content: Just fake it, like you probably faked your way through university.

author: dr.diesel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2013, 09:44:32 pm
content: Quote from: Shenandoah on June 27, 2013, 09:02:50 pmThere are many aspects to chip design, software being part of the process. Any particular part that interests you?

author: lgbeno
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2013, 10:10:29 pm
content: Digital or Analog IC design? I could see where a software background could dovetail with digital chip design. I also like the suggestion on the design automation side as well.Honestly though, analog IC is quite difficult let alone without any experience that you would receive by taking classes. If that is what you are interested in, I'd suggest taking a class or two through continuing Ed somewhere.

author: Shenandoah
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2013, 10:58:02 pm
content: Quote from: Bored@Work on June 27, 2013, 09:33:31 pmHow did I fake my way through university?Quote from: dr.diesel on June 27, 2013, 09:44:32 pmI'm more into microwave mixed digital/analog chips. But before I start learning the automation software I would love to learn the theory on paper first.I was thinking of applying to Internships but they are only available to uni students, not self-taught persons, unfortunately.Analog IC is tricky but I will make it...just need the opportunity.Not really interested in going back to school and waste time and money, I can do the reading at home and teach myself properly instead of sleeping in classes...profs are so damn boring, talking to themselves reading 20 years old lec notes.

author: dr.diesel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2013, 11:09:48 pm
content: There are many aspects to the software side as well:- Production automation- Visual inspection/quality control AOI etc- Shop floor, robots, QC databases, SAP etc- Custom engineering softwareWhat "kind" of software guy are you now? Making stuff with mixed digital/analog chips can be a world of different from manufacturing them. In any case, software has a HUGE role in making chips, or pretty much anything these days.

author: gregariz
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2013, 11:18:20 pm
content: http://www.mosis.com/

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 28, 2013, 12:12:12 am
content: Quote from: Shenandoah on June 27, 2013, 10:58:02 pmNot a chance... Analog IC design has very little to do with normal electronics. It's more material physics on one end, and black magic on the other end.Start by reading 'the mos transistor' by h.m. Veendrick...

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 28, 2013, 12:37:27 am
content: Quote from: Shenandoah on June 27, 2013, 09:02:50 pmIf you don't have formal education in the field (some degrees have an IC design component, or it's optional) or practical experience in actually designing chips, then I think your odds of getting a job in the industry are practically zero.IC design is not like regular component level electronics designs. Whilst you could self study it, actually applying it practically is going to cost a lot of money. It's not like you can just mock it up on a breadboard cheaply.

author: Shenandoah
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 28, 2013, 12:49:01 am
content: Understood, but how the pioneers made it? To gain experience or at least start learning it practically I need the chance like any other industry.What kind of talents/skills starters show to the employer assuming it's their first IC design job?

author: dr.diesel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 28, 2013, 12:56:53 am
content: Pioneers invent, ie you don't go to school for a degree in entrepreneurism, you just do it.IC design, let's say on the fab side, have basic elements associated, these can be taught in school. Employers look for these and hire those people!

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 28, 2013, 12:58:51 am
content: First you need to take some courses in chip design. My EE study was geared towards chip design because Phillips (now NXP) sponsored the equipment hoping some of the students didn't find IC design utterly boring (what is an EE without an oscilloscope?) which most of us did.Anyway, back in the old days chips where build on breadboard using discrete components. Nowadays its just simulation, simulation and simulation and even more simulation. To make it worse: simulating a piece of electronics is an art in itself when it comes to temperature and process variations. And don't think digital isn't analog...From your perspective I'd try to get a job in a company which designs chips as a tester for writing test benches (most likely Verilog). Then move on to logic verification (breadboarding using FPGA) and from there you may get to design actual chips.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 28, 2013, 01:02:01 am
content: Quote from: Shenandoah on June 28, 2013, 12:49:01 amAll that matters if how you can get into the industry now.And although I'm not into the IC design area, I can imagine that it is not unlike component level electronics design.Yes, I can imagine it would be possible to get a job being self taught, the problem with IC design, like most of electronics, it's ultimately a practical applied field.There usually two routes in:1) Formal education and then a grunt graduate job.2) Based on your practical and/or job experience.You'll have none of these in the IC field.Yes, you can learn the theory and use some tools until the cows come home, but unless you fork out big money to get your designs fabricated and have experience going the whole cycle of getting a chip made tested etc, your odds of getting a job are very low I suspect.You might get lucky and get a job using one of the IC design tools as part of big team, maybe.If you do have the money to fork out on actually getting chips made, then your odds will be better, but still probably rather low.Now, someone will no doubt bring up Jeri Ellsworth. As I recall, she got her first IC design job not because she self studied IC design and went looking for a job, it's because she had the experience required in the FPGA side of reverse engineering a particular product that a company happened to want. She had the ready to go IP. Basically, she got lucky that someone found her. She might not have had nearly the same luck if she self studied IC design and then actively went looking for a job.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 28, 2013, 01:04:33 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on June 28, 2013, 12:58:51 amYes, that's a third way in, via the side door.The classic "working your way up" within a company.I hired a guy one time that literally started as Dick Smith's janitor.

author: gregariz
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 28, 2013, 01:14:08 am
content: The mosis service I linked above is what alot of universities use as a small quantity prototyping service to help train their students in analog/cmos design. If memory serves it used to cost 2-5K for a small quantity of chips. Just to give you some cost perspective from recent experience;Digital ASIC: 100K-250K <--- you do the Verilog/VHDL design and simulation and make sure it works on an fpga.. then you hand it off to custom vendor ie someone like gigaoptix (http://www.gigoptix.com/products/20-asic)Analog ASIC: 500K-1MIL <--- you write a detailed specification for all of the performance parameters that the chip needs to conform to. You then hand it off to a custom chip vendor. The custom chip vendor usually has a library of pre-characterized circuit blocks that are tied to a particular fabrication process ie something like SiGe. They try to put these pre-characterized blocks through their software simulators (cost about 50-150K) and put everything together and fill in any blanks. Its very process dependent which is why you dont usually do it yourself. Check out the design packages at mosis for the various fab processes. They give you characterized (for the fab process) individual devices like transistors that you can use in Spice.Mixed Signal ASIC: 800K and up <--- most companies avoid this due to cost. Plus it ends up being alot of voodoo. Vendors IP extends to knowing what processes can handle both logic and analog reasonably ie how do you put an ARM core and a RF amplifier together - alot of processes wont like it - the arm will be great but the noise in the RF amp will be crap - stuff like that. Lots of people get burnt here and so there a fewer custom vendors out there to do these jobs.Its highly possible that you could use Spice and the fab packages available from Mosis to design basic analog chips. Its highly improbably that you would be able to get microwave or mixed signal devices happening without spending a huge about of money optimizing design by doing alot of prototypes. Some of the circuit and system software simulators that all the major analog vendors use to help design these chips easily cost over 100K. You will need excellent analog discrete design skill to do that so if you are interested in pursuing it you should probably concentrate on getting that skillset ie rockstar transistor designer. Now one word of warning... I'm sure that there are a few small contract chip design houses out there... but if you look at the major chip vendors ie people like Maxim, Freescale etc... go to there career section and see what they want. Typically they'll want a PhD. You can always try to get your foot in the door with the independent contract firms... but I only vaguely know who they are so..Just to give some perspective... when I was a student I only did one very simple transistor circuit on a cmos process. If memory serves the only one that worked .. or at least worked well was the one where the guy flooded the wafer surface with aluminium to keep all the track inductances low. Even though everyone had working Spice models.. it didnt matter. That sort of stuff is ... ie circuit blocks that work well for a process is what IP is all about and why its almost impossible to do this stuff as a hobbyist. Prototyping cost will kill you.

author: Stonent
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 28, 2013, 01:19:28 am
content: Yeah because when you go to chips themselves, you're also dealing with the physics of the doping compounds and other materials. You'd have to know a lot of the characteristics of things like Gallium Arsenide and the meaning of things like "dopant-site bonding energy"Or in more relative terms, I work in IT and have done so for about 17 years now, and for a period of time took an evening job at a store doing the fix customer computers thing for some extra money. This while having my regular IT job. And most of the people I worked with were about 18 to early 20's and they'd say "Hey man, can you get me a job where you work full time doing IT stuff?" And honestly for most of them I had to say no, because they've only worked on the home level on computers and didn't have experience with things like Active Directory, setting up network printers, tracing out network issues, working with AS/400 or Mainframe connectivity etc.With electronics, I'm doing this as partly a hobby and partly a challenge. I'm playing with microcontrollers now, have a cheap logic analyzer on the way, playing around with KiCAD and maybe might even get into FPGAs at some point. But also I need to finish my college degree that I've stopped and started numerous times, because I've just about topped what I can do with my career without my degree being finished.It's not that they were dumb in any way, just that they couldn't just say "well I don't know what's wrong, we're just going to have to format and start over" when the assembly line has stopped and the company is losing 1000s of dollars a minute.

author: lgbeno
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 28, 2013, 03:36:57 am
content: I would say that Jeri has more of a digital IC background than anything. I think a software developer with the right mindset could morph into a digital IC designer without much of a stretch. Especially if he/she is doing some FPGA work or prototyping first. In fact a software person who understands digital design is an indispensable resource IMO. Analog is quite a bit different simply because understanding device physics is so important.All of that said I wouldn't want Shenandoah to be too discouraged. Just friendly advice that it will take a lot of perseverance.Quote from: gregariz on June 28, 2013, 01:14:08 amgregariz, great breakdown and for most vendors in the industry, this is very true.So full disclosure, I'm a FAE for Triad Semiconductor and Mixed Signal ASIC design is our business. We do things differently and as a result, we're able to do a mixed signal ASIC design starting around 100K NRE. 800K would be on the far upper end of our spectrum for a custom IC design. We have IP and proven silicon for ARM cores, precision ADC's and all kinds of analog including power management. In the future we think that using our via only approach and our ViaDesigner software that we could get this NRE as low as 10K or 0 if the volume makes sense. But anyway, if interested, send me a PM and we can chat more about it.So now that cat is out of the bag, my best recommendation for the question at hand is that it sounds like you are really dedicated to making this happen. Working your way up is the best thing to do, especially since the world is in need of good IC designers. My advice would be to use your current talents as a segway to do IC design. Maybe that means finding a company that does both (which there are many) get in with your current credentials and start talking to your manager about where you would like to see your career in the next few years. If your manager is good he/she will listen and do whatever to help you fulfill your goals.

author: chickenHeadKnob
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 28, 2013, 05:27:33 am
content: Besides Jeri Ellsworth, the one non-typical background IC designer I can think of is Charles H Moore, the inventor of the FORTH language.In the 90's he went on a bit of mission to create a special visual Forth, OKAD that was intended as an ultra minimalist chip layout tool. I thought he was going a bit kooky myself. If I recall correctly his IC design house did have some success in selling stack/forth machine cores.

author: Shenandoah
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 28, 2013, 07:43:04 am
content: Yeah I heard that Jeri Ellsworth is a chip designer, and she is self-taught. This is very encouraging.I thought that IC design could be simpler. First prototyping the circuit using discrete components, and then layout design and fabrication is done using software, which automates the process. I'm still interested to read some good literature on this subject. I found these books:http://www.amazon.com/Analysis-Design-Analog-Integrated-Circuits/dp/0470245999/ref=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1343870038&sr=1-2http://www.amazon.com/CMOS-VLSI-Design-Circuits-Perspective/dp/0321547748/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1372404554&sr=1-1&keywords=cmos+vlsi+designhttp://www.amazon.com/Fundamental-Principles-Optical-Lithography-Microfabrication/dp/0470727306/ref=pd_sim_b_1http://www.amazon.com/Principles-Electronic-Materials-Devices-Kasap/dp/0073104647/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1372404728&sr=1-1&keywords=electronic+materials+and+devicesMakes sense and it's like in mechanics, Newtonian physics does not work for atomic objects, that's where quantum mechanics is applied. The same can be said for IC where I think KVL/KCL/Ohm's laws are useless, we need to apply Maxwel's and semiconductor physics instead.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 28, 2013, 08:10:09 am
content: Quote from: Shenandoah on June 28, 2013, 07:43:04 am

author: Shenandoah
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 28, 2013, 02:24:17 pm
content: Why is a discrete circuit any different than IC circuit? Is it noise and other physical requirements that change the circuit implementation? Do we have different schematic for the same functionality when it's implemented in discrete components and when it's IC?

author: Codemonkey
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 28, 2013, 02:43:34 pm
content: Quote from: Shenandoah on June 28, 2013, 02:24:17 pmYes. You can't build a mixed signal chip on veroboard then expect the same thing to work on a bit of silicon.Seriously, as others have said, you're not going to get anyone letting you play with their $$$$$$ tools designing a chip for them unless you've either got previous proven experience, and a suitable qualification in the discipline. No company in their right mind is going to risk binning $100K+ worth of mask set cos some random bloke fancied himself as an IC designer but had no formal training.Its like me saying I've got no knowledge of brain surgery but hey, I'm pretty handy at cutting PCB tracks with a scalpel, how hard can it be ? Its just cutting stuff right ?You're best bet is learning something like Verilog and becoming a digital designer, but even then, implementing something in a CPLD or FPGA is NOT the same as having an IC produced from the same code.I happen to work for a company that has produced complex mixed signal devices, some of the software guys I work with have worked on some of the digital design in the past, but the mixed signal team are very specialised and spend almost all of the time sat in front of a pc running simulations, and very occasionally can be found in the lab when a new design of device returns from the fab. Its not even remotely the same as your average electronics engineer sat in a lab breadboarding stuff.

author: Shenandoah
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 28, 2013, 02:59:10 pm
content: QuotePlease I'm very curious to know why, can you give me a simple example why the schematic is different?QuoteYou just shattered my dreams.QuoteGot it! It's a black magic.I remember seeing a picture of very famous IC designer Bob Pease bread boarding and heard that he dislikes SPICE?

author: lgbeno
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 28, 2013, 03:52:56 pm
content: QuoteI admire the strong drive to do this, if there is a will then there is a way...For traditional IC design, attached is a report for a project that I did for a 400 level masters course. We had to design an opamp which conformed to the specs on the last page, the first two pages is the schematic for just this opamp! I barely got a B- on this design and this is no where near a state of the art or something that would be worth tapeing out.Lets say that you are designing in CMOS, really your only components to use are NMOS and PMOS fets. The designer is responsible for adjusting the length, width and multiplier of each transistor to get the sort of performance needed for the circuit at hand. Start talking about a high level integrated chip and it goes up from there.Schematics sure give you an appreciation for that humble Triangular symbol that we use for an opamp everydayThis is one area where I think formal education is required, not only to listen/sleep through "boring lectures" but also to do these types of sample projects and learn the hard way. I poured hundreds of hours into that simulation to get a B-... It can be done though!

author: Shenandoah
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 28, 2013, 04:33:04 pm
content: lgbeno, thanks a lot for clarification. So it's the fabrication technology and materials that determine what components have to be used. So choices are limited when it's on one chip. I'm getting the idea...but need to research more.What book did you use at this course?

author: rbola35618
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 28, 2013, 04:51:51 pm
content: If you want to learn about Integrated circuit design then you need to get the Jake Baker book titled "CMOS, circuit design, layout, and simulation". It is the best book on analog IC design. It is very readable and lots of SPICE simulation.On top of that, Dr. Baker has a website where he post his videos of the IC design classes that he teaches at the University of Nevada.http://cmosedu.com/http://cmosedu.com/jbaker/jbaker.htmhttp://cmosedu.com/jbaker/courses/courses.htmThis is where is tutorial videos are. He is a great teacher. He was one of my professors at the University of Idaho.http://cmosedu.com/videos/videos.htmHope this helps

author: lgbeno
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 28, 2013, 05:06:38 pm
content: Quote from: Shenandoah on June 28, 2013, 04:33:04 pmFab materials have a lot to so with it but its really a matter of hierarchical design all discrete components are constructed of base transistors, just abstracted to higher level elements like Opamps or an ADC by the time they are board level.Yes hierarchical design and IP are used in the IC design tools as well but a big IP library for a specific process is needed. This is really the bases for ViaDesigner.We actually didn't use the book much, for this class mostly the professors notes. I took my classes at USC online. I'll check which one it was when I get home.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 28, 2013, 05:15:56 pm
content: Quote from: lgbeno on June 28, 2013, 03:52:56 pmAFAIK the chip manufacturer gives you a library to work with. Usually with standard transistors and even logic gates. From there its like building with Lego bricks. During my EE course I have designed two digital chips (never produced though) and those where build from standard library components. Some parts like and/or arrays to implement logic functions like in a CPLD where generated from truth tables and imported as a functional block. Those functional blocks (including the I/O macro cells) had to be placed onto the chip much like placing components on a PCB and connected using much like components on a PCB. All in all it was actually pretty simple once the simulation was finished. But this was 2um NMOSI think there are some open source IC design packages like SPACE from the University of Delft (http://www.space.tudelft.nl/). During my EE study I have used their Nelsis package which is an early version of the SPACE package.

author: Shenandoah
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 28, 2013, 05:23:30 pm
content: QuoteI feel much better now. Lego bricks for IC creator.

author: Stonent
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 29, 2013, 01:54:02 am
content: Maybe one day you'll just write your chips up in Verilog or VHDL and print your silicon on a printer.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 29, 2013, 05:01:05 am
content: Quote from: Shenandoah on June 28, 2013, 04:33:04 pmIt's much deeper than that. The fabrication technology, material and physics determine how the "components" are realised on the final chip.When you design a chip you aremakingthe components and interconnects with basic physics and very complex process.It is totally different to regular electronics where you use each known component and connect them up on the PCB or breadboard.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 29, 2013, 05:03:37 am
content: Quote from: Shenandoah on June 28, 2013, 05:23:30 pmYes, you can do that, but this doesn't make you a chip designer any more than putting a design into an FPGA makes you a chip designer.Only in this case it costs more, a lot more, and you have some more flexibility.

author: gregariz
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 29, 2013, 05:25:27 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on June 28, 2013, 05:15:56 pmSome colleges actually have their own process (usually an old one) and train their students to create their own devices on silicon or some other exotic wafer material. They then train them to characterize them. Someone has to be able to create processes rather than just the chips.

author: gregariz
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 29, 2013, 05:27:21 am
content: Quote from: Stonent on June 29, 2013, 01:54:02 amIt was called Verilog-A

author: jancumps
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 29, 2013, 07:13:30 am
content: Quote from: Stonent on June 29, 2013, 01:54:02 amChris Gammell wakes up now...

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 29, 2013, 01:46:11 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on June 29, 2013, 05:01:05 amAFAIK it doesn't work that way. If this where true then each chip designer would need deep knowledge about the proces. That would be very inefficient. For analog circuits you'd typically specify the geometry which are fed into the spice model. The underlying Spice model is created by the people who have a deep understanding of the actuall process parameters through calculation and characterisation (a nice word for trial & error). For that job you'd probably need a physics degree and a good brain.And there are specialist jobs as well. In a newsgroup I follow one of the regulars is an old school chip designer specialised in analog and mixed signal chips (everyone of us probably have used or have a chip he helped design); at some point he said he wasn't involved in designing I/O pads because that is an art in itself.The more I think about it the more I get convinced there are many similarities to designing a PCB with standard components. The biggest difference is the cost when something goes wrong so designing a chip becomes a largely academic excerise using a simulator.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 29, 2013, 02:12:46 pm
content: Quote from: jancumps on June 29, 2013, 07:13:30 amand realises it was all a dream

author: AlfBaz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 29, 2013, 03:55:46 pm
content: I cant help but think there must be levels of abstraction when it comes to chip design and amongst them they probably discuss things parallel to do you need to know asm to program c++.I wonder what the process flow for chip design is.Having said that, i have a book that covers low level semiconducter theory, lythography, and the workings of basic electronic semiconductor devices from resistors to mosfets.I've had it for over 10yrs and still haven't read it"Understanding Semiconductor Devices" by Sima Dimitrijev of Griffith university Australia. Published by Oxford university press

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 29, 2013, 04:17:14 pm
content: It depends what you define as chip design.Coding vhdl or verilog is not chip design. It is system design.Designing the actual and, or , not , doing the layout , extract parasitics and make a library of standard cells is chip design. You need to know how to create a transistor, how to define the wells, where to put the bulk connection, isolation rings and do it all in such a fashion that it yields the smallest surface area, fastest speed and lowest powerconsumption without blowing up in your face. The circuit needs to work reliably over process variations (layer thickness etc ) and temperature span.For analog there is even more involved. You cannot simply say : i want 1 kiloohm here.. You'll get something that will be between 800 ohm and 4k...Only the ratios will work. Absolute values are unknown. Cant make capacitors either on chip except for extremely small ones... So everything is dc coupled in your design....There is a linrary with standard blocks but most commonly these are taken, modified a bit and then used. You cant simply slap down 4 opamps and wire them up with 5 resistors.... The design would be waaay too large. You'd strip the output stage for the opamps used internally. Youll also strip,the bias generators as you can share the bias generator between opamps.So that stuff invariably ends up being full custom starting from a few base blocks with a full custom layout. You will need to interact with the ic layouters as they will extract parasitics and you will have to see if there is impact and provide feedback. Select carefully as any square micron you add increase cost of the chip thus reducing profit....What block to place where ? How do we bond-out. How do we thermally distribute ? What about gradient compensation ?There is a lot of factors to account for that do not exist in traditional design.Then there is the whole testability problem. You will need to inject test multiplexers to be able to probe internal nodes during ic testing. Every singgle chip produced goes through that.A circuit you breadboard with an lm324 and some resistors in half an hour takes about a week to design on silicon... Design as in : here is the GDS tape , please make the masks and fab it.

author: Shenandoah
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 29, 2013, 10:41:59 pm
content: QuoteI can see this in the near future, my grandchildren will be laughing at me when I tell them about these big ugly retarded fabrication facilities.

author: Shenandoah
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 29, 2013, 10:44:10 pm
content: QuoteYes I got it Dave, chip designers are contracted scientists from Mars.

author: DaveW
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2013, 12:09:23 am
content: As you brought up Bob Pease, he gave advise to someone on how to become a chip designer. Just start adding up all of the years of experience that he advises; and that's for someone with EE qualifications, although like you, they're working in softwarehttp://electronicdesign.com/analog-amp-mixed-signal/bob-s-mailbox-advice-young-engineer-julie-resistors-key-less-acceleration-an

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 30, 2013, 12:20:24 am
content: Quote from: AlfBaz on June 29, 2013, 03:55:46 pmI imagine it depends entirely what type of chip you are talking about.Jeri for example is currently doing a video compression/whatever chip for your CastAR glasses. That would be as high level abstraction as is possible. She just wants to do some digital stuff and get the power consumption and cost down from the existing FPGA solution.Contrast that with someone at Analog Devices designing the latest ultra low noise, ultra low power, ultra low drift opamp.They are chalk and cheese.

author: ftransform
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2013, 03:16:19 am
content: in a new process analog devices just hired drunken hicks to yell "shut the fuck up and hold still" at this chips when they are carried on by on conveyor belts.No magic there... thats how chopper stabilized is really made, they are regular op amps threatened with a butchers knife.

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2013, 03:19:13 am
content: That's why I don't like AD - it took them 48 years to figure out that shouting and cussing at silicon makes it behave better. Every computer user in the history of computer users could have told them that!

author: ftransform
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2013, 03:22:44 am
content: AD actually copied the process from texas instruments, which discovered it due to the nature of texas

author: Stonent
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2013, 03:32:11 am
content: Quote from: ftransform on June 30, 2013, 03:22:44 amTexas: It's like a whole other country (tm) !

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 30, 2013, 06:28:50 am
content: Quote from: Stonent on June 30, 2013, 03:32:11 amJust like Africa!

author: Stonent
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2013, 07:50:11 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on June 30, 2013, 06:28:50 amBut if you do want to get technical...Quote from: Wikipedia

author: Shenandoah
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2013, 04:59:56 pm
content: QuoteWhy should someone's experience be considered an applicable advise to anyone? People different in their learning curve, abilities, motivations, life style and circumstances, accessible resources, and of course luck. I can see his advise is true for average EE graduates IC-designer wannabe vs. someone with true passion and endless motivation. What takes you 20 years to achieve it may take others much more, and some others much less.Working at the very low level and being closer to the hardware physics does not necessarily make it much harder than working at the higher level.When designing using FPGA and HDL you may face problems much much harder than IC chip layout and physics. It all depends on the problem domain.Have you checked TI's ultra fast ADCs?

author: Codemonkey
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2013, 05:30:05 pm
content: The big issue isn't your ability to learn the stuff, its the risk you pose to any company that employs you. Put yourself in their shoes, for example, a start up with fairly limited funds may not be able to afford multiple spins of a chip ($100K+ just for the mask set, plus wafer costs time debugging, longer time to market). If the chip doesn't work when it comes back from the fab, its costly to try and debug and there's only so much that can be fixed withhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Focused_ion_beamon a bare die to try and fault find. After that, if you can fix it with a metal layer change, its still more $$, all of which needs to be recovered on the sales of a device that may sell for just a few dollars each in an industry that is obsessed with saving costs everywhere. If it can't be fixed without a complete re-spin, you could quite literally cause the demise of the company, its just too risky for them to employ someone without proven experience.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2013, 06:15:19 pm
content: OTOH the bigger companies can't affort to rely on their senior staff to work for them forever. People tend to retire and die (some skip the retirement step). So there are job oportunities where you can learn all the tricks of the trade from a senior engineer.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2013, 07:30:21 pm
content: Quote from: Shenandoah on June 30, 2013, 04:59:56 pm

author: Shenandoah
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2013, 07:41:01 pm
content: free_electron, you made me feel much more motivated and excited, now I want to learn more.

author: M. András
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2013, 08:12:54 pm
content: get somehow a chance to a fab tour etc and talk to the engineers there if you are allowed. the university you are in maybe can help with that. so you can get a lok at the processes involved

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2013, 09:28:10 pm
content: Quote from: Shenandoah on June 30, 2013, 07:41:01 pmgood !Go follow a course in that stuff. Santa cruz university has one that will teach you the basics.http://www.ucsc-extension.edu/programs/vlsi-engineering/schedulehttp://course.ucsc-extension.edu/modules/shop/index.html?action=courseBrowse&CatalogID=118That gives tou the basics.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2013, 09:50:52 pm
content: Actually there are chip pooling services where you could have your chip produced at a reasonable cost (lets say the price of a good second hand car). You have to be patient though. They usually run a batch a few times per year. Before I got married and had no money drain I had the idea to design some digital logic chip for a hobby project and have it produced. Just for fun. Ofcourse its an insane idea but it will impress at any electronics related job interview and gives you a head start. The photo in my avatar picture is a similar insane project of mine with which I gained a huge amount of knowledge. Even though its about 10 years old the knowledge is still valuable and helped me get jobs and projects. I think the investment repaid itself at least 20 times.

author: Shenandoah
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2013, 05:12:32 pm
content: Always the case, when it's something comes from Academia it's too expensive, inefficient, and over complicated. Until someone like John Carmack (our software programming God) comes and invents something that shows the world how retard those IC fabrication facilities are.For now I will just do the mental work, study and read, design on paper, research more, and buy this book:http://www.amazon.com/Operation-Modeling-Transistor-Electrical-Engineering/dp/0195170156/ref=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1367021297&sr=1-2&keywords=operation+and+modeling+of+mosSomeone suggested...

author: AlfBaz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2013, 05:35:15 pm
content: Here's a link to that book I mentioned. Much cheaper and may cover the ground work required for the book you quotedhttp://www.amazon.com/Understanding-Semiconductor-Electrical-Computer-Engineering/dp/019513186X/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1372699970&sr=1-1&keywords=Understanding+Semiconductor+devices

author: ftransform
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2013, 08:40:56 pm
content: I found transistor level design to be boring and transistor design/physics to be even worse. widths, lengths,doping... jesus I felt like I was a real carpenter.There are also like fifty billion equations that you need to know .Maybe if I saved up money to get a chip made then I could be interested in it... I do want my own IC...

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2013, 09:43:58 pm
content: Quote from: ftransform on July 01, 2013, 08:40:56 pmThat's what it is ! You get some sand , some contaminant (arsnic, boron, phosphorus or antimony). By creating puddles and placing them in a specific order and layer thickness and controlling the dosage you control the flow of electrons. It is what it is.Simply gluing a vunch of ready made logic cells or blocks together is not ic design.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2013, 09:57:11 pm
content: Like using C++ to write software instead of using assembly isn't programming? Even when putting a chip together from existing blocks you'll need to take thermal behaviour and power distribution into account.

author: jpb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2013, 10:22:20 pm
content: My first job after graduating was in Monolithic Microwave Integrated Circuits (GaAs). I worked in assessment (measurements) then circuit design and modelling then moved into device physics (FETs). I then went off and started a small company with two colleagues. I enjoyed the circuit design but it was very different from VLSI design or designing complex chips at lower frequencies. The circuits in some ways were very simple, no more than 4 FETs and it was more about transmission lines, couplers, controlling parasitics. Most of the innovation was in either device physics and modelling or in process development, the circuit design role is not one in which I would have liked to have spent more than a few years. But then I'd probably feel the same if I was working in the digital circuit world as say part of a team at Intel.I think the thing to watch out for in any such job is that you don't get stuck in a rut. I was lucky in that I got to move around and it was in a research environment so it was new and challenging. The danger is if you spend a lot of time in one role and become an expert at designing one aspect of a chip you will a.) get bored b.) find it more difficult to move job as you get more experienced but more specialised. The number of companies designing chips is pretty small and getting smaller so you may find your horizons limited. This is why I eventually switched to Computer Science because I am in the UK and the GaAs/Microwave Electronics industry just disappeared (Plessey, GEC, Marconi, Ferranti, BT Research, Thorn EMI research, and others I've forgotten - all disappeared leaving only Filtronic).

author: gregariz
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2013, 11:41:58 pm
content: Quote from: jpb on July 01, 2013, 10:22:20 pmThat's exactly right. Yes the sad truth is that in many tech firms, particularly the larger ones doing cutting edge stuff, there are an army of PhD's at the bottom of the power pyramid all scratching around in the dirt to be noticed. You most likely will never get promoted. IIRC TI has never had a CEO that actually came from R&D. Kind of like pharmaceutical companies and chemical companies. Very few executives in those companies have a basic research background and employees sit at the bench until they die. There basically are no jobs available except in a large stultifying company. Small semiconductor companies are few and far between.Any job simply sucks after a while of doing the same crap over and over and having little interaction with either customers or real people. And then the problem happens when you want to move on... there are so few employers, and you have been exposed to so few elements of the business that if you do get laid off you will probably be either long term unemployed or have to do something else. One of my friends retrained as a nurseMy advice is make sure you are doing some bread and butter broad-based design work in your own time on the side so that when you do get sick of it you actually do have skillset and some products you can point to that will land you another job.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2013, 12:33:13 am
content: In general there are a couple of ways your career can go:1)You keep your knowledge up to date and keep excelling at your job until your retirement IF your boss still needs what you do.2)You keep your knowledge up to date and keep excelling at your job and start as a consultant because your boss doesn't need you or you can make more money as a consultant anyway.3)You have management and/or commercial skills so you climb up the tree of corporate incompetence. Over the years I've pushed some junior engineers into commercial positions and they are doing better than me4)You can't keep up and end up being fired or parked in a shitty job like the IT help desk or building maintenance.The real challenge with numbers 1 an 2 is that its hard to tell which kind of knowledge retains its value. OTOH companies need a limited number of experts in certain areas.

author: AlfBaz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2013, 01:27:03 am
content: @ nctnico1 to 3 are things you should do. 4 however, is something that can happen to you and should be in a separate list that can be ad infinitum

author: Shenandoah
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2013, 05:32:17 am
content: Another book:http://www.amazon.com/Fabrication-Engineering-Nanoscale-Electrical-Computer/dp/0199861226/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1372729107&sr=1-1&keywords=0199861226

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2013, 10:47:31 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on July 01, 2013, 09:57:11 pmBad analogy.A correct analogy would be : i write code , i design instruction sets.Or : i write code in c, i make c compilers...Designing an efficient instruction set is an art in itself.We postprocess many ASIC designs. In chip design there are four big areas (apart from the actual fab)Process technology : the chemistry and physics of ic design. What chemicals do we need in what quantity and how big of an area do we need to create or how thick must the layer be to make a transistor that can do do 1ghz at 20 volt breakdown and 100mA current with a beta of 100. Given the doping dosage for the wafer figure it all out and come up with the optimum structure shape. Test it using waterfall , characterise the snot out of it , build the accurate spice model and stick it in the library as base element.Library: manage the base elements and create base blocks with them. Things like logic gates , io structures , bandgaps and other references, base amplifier structures etc ...Front-end : schematics , verilog, vhdl. Use blocks , make blocks using base elements from the library (base elements being transistors, blocks being gates or analog function blocks)Back-end : place and route , timing closure , parasitic extraction, net drive strength analysis etc.There is continuous interplay between these. A front end designer makes a counter in verilog , produces a netlist, simulates it using the models.. And produce the accurate model (timing) Handoff to backend.The backend guys plonk the gates on the wafer, interconnect it and then extract parasitics and loading. They verify the actual placed system against the model delivered by the designer. If it turns out a net needs more drive strength they inject or scale buffers accordingly. If timing closure cannot be done because of something like a 5 input and not exisiting and has to be made by cascading 3 input ands they go to library and request a 5 input gate. Backend guys spit out the actual layout of the entire system , extract all parasitics and run the simulation against the model from frontend.Front end back end interplay is very similar to designing boards using components. You design your circuit , do the placement and routing and check for emc esd and other things to create a working system. Your library group is the website of digikey or mouser. With difference that, if nobody makes a 5 input and-gate you are screwed. You'll have to have it custom built as an ASIC by a chip maker. Of course in siliconland there are much more things to account for than in pcb land. But it is similar. You are using components, you are not making components.The real hard design work is done by the process guys. Those are the guys that come up with new technologies like finfets, 22nm, 18nm, SOI , and all that is required to actually make the chip. That is the real design work.I have done front end , back end and library. Does that make me a chip designer .. Not really. Because i couldn't design a transistor if my life depended on it. I can layout one if you tell me how long and wide you want the gate to be ... But i dont know , for a given chemistry , to figure out how long and wide it needs to be.... That is the designers work.I have made libraries with logic gates in 1994 for 0.5micron. They gave me the gate dimension for internal transistors and for the output stage transistors. The goal was then to make blocks that fitted on a grid (input output lie on a grid so the placer can route them) being as small as possible. Height of a block was fixed, length defined by the number of i/o needed. You also needed to provide cross channels. I created the schematics , did the layout and created the library. These were then fabbed, tested for speed and drive strength and signed off. Many a chip has been built using that library.We had a tool called a p-cell generator. You plonk in what current and voltage you want and presto : here is your transistor. The equations behind them are specific to the chemistry , lithography , doping used for that process. These equations come from the real silicon designers.But i still don't consider myself as silicon designer as i can't design something simple as a digital transistor (nor do i have an interest in that)Maybe that is the destinction that can be made.A ic designer does frontend backend and library but only a true silicon designer makes the transistors and defines the process technology.Ic designer is within reach of everyone given strong motivation and a bit of luck.Silicon designer .. You'll have to be ic designer first, work for a semiconductor maker for a while and learn the ropes from a bunch of greybeards there... And youll have to get their blessing before you get to spend oodles of money on machinery and consumables testing your 'process'Very few ic makers actually design their own processes. They buy them or license them from others. It is simply too expensive to design. Companies like maxim dont have process technologies. They license them or use someones fab that can run it. Not all fabs can run all processes.Remember when the max038 went obsolete (together with a bunch of other maxim chips) ? That was because their foundry retired the process used for those chips. Nobody in the world runs that process anymore. So game over for those.If a device is a high flyer they will redesign for a different process. (This is called a shrink, if geometries become smaller). If it is not , they pull the plug. Unless the part is used by military or some other whackjob with lots of money then the masks, gds tape to make the mask and the process are transferred to companies like Rochester electronics.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2013, 10:48:11 am
content: Quote from: lemo connectors on July 02, 2013, 09:30:10 amHahaaaa. Got a few billion dollar for a new waferfab ?

author: jpb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2013, 11:04:28 am
content: Quote from: free_electron on July 02, 2013, 10:48:11 amYou don't have to make the chips yourself - look at ARM.On a smaller scale, Filtronic in the UK was started by an academic from the University of Leeds (designing microwave filters) and they grew enough to buy Fujitsu's wafer fab in Darlington. Having said that they didn't make money on it and sold it to RF Micro devices (according to the company history on their web site).On a very small scale, I and two colleagues setup a company doing contract work and selling software tools (we wrote ourselves) in the field of GaAs devices/integrated circuits. We did this for fourteen years, didn't make a lot of money (it paid our salaries but we didn't become millionaires) but it was fun. We worked for a big companies and government organizations as well as taking part in European programmes.

author: Shenandoah
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2013, 02:30:03 pm
content: What's the average salary for a senior IC designer in North America, UK, Australia, Japan, Pakistan, and Iraq?

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2013, 06:23:23 pm
content: a junior ic designer (frontend, let's say a verilog coder ) begins at 80k$ a year. if you do analog it will be 100kA senior (5 yrs+) can run up to 120k a year. Once you become staff (5+ in various fields) it climbs above 140k...

author: CodyShaw
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2013, 08:53:05 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on June 28, 2013, 12:37:27 amThis is an area I want to get into after graduation, and this is also spot on.One of my professors worked as a chip designer back in the day. The man is a genius. Very good at teaching too.What I've been told: If you are doing analog chip design (IE, can't be automated by software and requires you to actually be competent at physics and EE), you need to think about doing some Masters/PhD work in the field before you can think about nabbing a job.

author: Shenandoah
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2013, 07:11:19 pm
content: Quote from: free_electron on July 02, 2013, 06:23:23 pmPretty close to what computer programmers make, hmmm after multiply it by 0.5

author: Shenandoah
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2013, 07:13:23 pm
content: QuoteNaaaah I will start my own business. No need to waste time and $$$ on useless papers that will not change anything about my brain abilities.

author: JoannaK
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2013, 08:11:14 pm
content: Quote from: chickenHeadKnob on June 28, 2013, 05:27:33 amThird one that I know is Chip Gracey, he designed Propeller I chip mostly on his own. At the moment he (and some ppl at Parallax) are workin on Propeller II ...http://forums.parallax.com/forumdisplay.php/97-Propeller-2-Multicore

author: Shenandoah
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2013, 10:00:09 pm
content: Now after reading many job posts asking for PhD's in EE I'm thinking of making my own IC fabrication company. What tools and equipment I need for the factory? I will start a very basic one, no need for mass production, minimal equipment needed please??? Where can I buy them? What budget we talking about here?Thanks for you help and advice.

author: dr.diesel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2013, 10:06:13 pm
content: What happened to your dream of design?Starting a foundry is an entirely different animal, several orders of magnitude higher.

author: jancumps
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 16, 2013, 10:11:27 pm
content: Quote from: Shenandoah on July 16, 2013, 10:00:09 pmFromwikipediaQuote

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2013, 11:04:04 pm
content: you need one of your feet, a loaded gun and a modicum of aim to shoot the aforementioned appendage...you are nuts.

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2013, 01:12:27 am
content: Oh, go easy on him. I had big dreams when I was twelve, too.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 17, 2013, 02:50:24 am
content: Quote from: Shenandoah on July 16, 2013, 10:00:09 pmSeriously, this is not achievable, forget it.If you spend a lot of time and trial and error at it, you just might be able to produce your own working transistor. Yes, one transistor. And not even close to being as good as one you buy for a few cents.Maybe an "IC" with a dozen or two transistors if you are really determined.

author: AlfBaz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2013, 03:12:16 am
content: I may be providing him with an out here but I thought he just forgot to add a smiley/winky emoticon at the end of the post