Hilarious email from my assembly subcontractor - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2018, 09:12:47 am
content: Quote(pics of a board with a PIC, a load of LEDs and a couple of ULN2003 drivers)

author: daqq
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2018, 09:29:17 am
content: By program do they mean upload the firmware, or program the firmware? I've seen a beautifully designed PCB where the designer somehow forgot about the ISP signals...

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2018, 09:44:11 am
content: The main question is how much they're willing to spend or pay you Mike ?

author: GeorgeOfTheJungle
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2018, 09:45:20 am
content: Define help.

author: NivagSwerdna
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2018, 09:45:53 am
content: Sounds like a fun project. Ask them for a video of the original in action.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2018, 09:55:09 am
content: Theye didn't realise that the PIC needed code. There is an ISP header - they obviously just copied another product and expected it to work. Guessing their normal products are dumb LED lighting strips.I'm too busy, and don't want clueless customers - pointed them towards the Microchip consultant list. Suspect they may get a surprise when they get a quote for writing the code...

author: CJay
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2018, 10:26:59 am
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on July 13, 2018, 09:12:47 amWell that sounds fun, I've had similar conversations with garage owners who have decided they're going to copy things like chassis dynos, brake testers and wheel balancers, they see the pile of bits and don't think about the software that sticks them all together.

author: Zucca
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 13, 2018, 10:32:01 am
content: Definitely something for your muppet alert area Mike...I think here they can help your customer:www.youhavenoideawecanhelp.com

author: medical-nerd
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2018, 11:54:24 am
content: HiyaQuote from: mikeselectricstuff on July 13, 2018, 09:55:09 amJust out of interest since I've absolutely no idea - what's the ballpark quote for doing such a coding project?Cheers

author: GeorgeOfTheJungle
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2018, 12:10:49 pm
content: Quote from: medical-nerd on July 13, 2018, 11:54:24 amWhere?

author: sokoloff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2018, 12:28:43 pm
content: Quote from: NivagSwerdna on July 13, 2018, 09:45:53 amWould be a fun project for a customer who knew they needed code.A customer who gets to the point where there's a pile of physical boards already assembled and only then discovers that their project plan is missing a five-figure, 5-8 week item? A lot less fun, not because the customer is necessarily terrible to work with, but because they're now in a super-grumpy mood. (Sure, it's from their own doing, but still it sucks to be the guy who comes in trying to help someone who thought they were going to be profiting X now and instead will be profiting X/2 and not for a while.)I'd love to do the coding for the first customer.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2018, 12:28:57 pm
content: Depends a lot on the spec. If they have a file of the animation they want ( and it fits in the flash) it's a couple of hours work, however I rather suspect this customer hasn't, and has no clue what they mean by "fire effect". If they have the original fitting you could capture the data and hope the data is short enough to fit, but even that's probably 4-6x the work.if the original has some clever generative algorithm, then unless you pull their code it could be a lot of work.I wouldn't touch a job like this with a long pole.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 13, 2018, 12:34:03 pm
content: Unless you had a video clip that clearly demonstrates the effect, I wouldn't touch it either. There's no guarantee the "effect" you came up with would be what they want. That would turn into a very painful exercise.Even if they did - it's not the sort of project that would appeal to me.

author: CJay
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2018, 12:52:02 pm
content: Quote from: sokoloff on July 13, 2018, 12:28:43 pmPlus they've already ripped off the design which means they're cheap, have limited understanding of the product and won't have a clue about software development so getting anything like a reasonable payment out of them is going to be like squeezing blood out of a stone.I feel for the assemblers because they're stuck in the middle and it's possible they may not get paid but I would not want to go anywhere near it either.

author: Berni
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2018, 12:52:25 pm
content: Hah nice one!Yeah people who have a little clue about a subject are the most confident. They know enough to recognize components and wire them together by a photo or diagram, yet still have no idea how any of it works.Reminds me of a guy who asked me about modifying the code in some automatic cat litter box that was run by a PIC. Not only was the chip most likely read protected, but even if code could be read it would need hefty reverse engineering of that horrible assembler

author: X
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2018, 01:24:56 pm
content: I have this terrible feeling of déjà vu...

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2018, 01:33:19 pm
content: Quote from: CJay on July 13, 2018, 12:52:02 pmWell as regards actual payment, when I used to do this sort of job I sent code-protected parts in the protos, and only released the code when my invoice was paid.

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2018, 01:48:03 pm
content: Wow! It's a cargo cult, refined slightly!Tim

author: schmitt trigger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2018, 01:48:38 pm
content: Most likely the "redesign" no only involved replacing thru LEDs with SMT ones, but also involved some "Muntzing" and replacement of components to remove some cost from the original board

author: NivagSwerdna
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2018, 01:53:20 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on July 13, 2018, 12:28:57 pmAgreed. It might be a bit subjective as to the acceptability of the end result.I wonder how many they have assembled.

author: CJay
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2018, 01:59:26 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on July 13, 2018, 01:33:19 pmI would do the exact same, I meant that they'd balk in the face of a reasonable quote/estimate for the work, I could have phrased it better.

author: BrianHG
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2018, 02:08:44 pm
content: My price, 1k$ to just look at the thing they have built and read the spec for only 10 minutes max.500$/hour, including travel time, snack and lunch, payed in 1 day increments of 10 hours blocks.Any post help incurs a new additional 10 hour block day charge or 5k$Then, I would take the minimum 6k$-11k$ and enjoy a weekend out...However, I happen to have a little time on my hands right now, otherwise, I would say no.Though I already done a 1 day 6k$ job in the past, it was a motor controller PCB with USB and microcontroller. The guy was in a fix and paid, however, at least he knew what he was doing. He was happy with the end product and now has me on his 'Ohhhh shit, this must be done in 1-2 day, and work properly out of the box emergency problem solver...' He also fired his main engineer after seeing how I patched up and caught something like over 20 errors in his original design during that 1 day.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2018, 02:17:22 pm
content: What, you mean electronics is different than cogs? Like you put it together and it doesnt just magically work?My suggestion would be to scrap the boards, and order new ones where the supplier programmed the micros before they go on PCB.If they take the suggestion, they have money enough money to pay you as consultant.

author: Berni
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2018, 02:19:33 pm
content: Oh and on the topic of well defined specs. There was a guy who wanted a thing that blinks a led light with a pattern and the only "documentation" that he would give on the blinking pattern was him gesturing with his hands while saying "Blip....blip.blip". When asked about timings for each blip he would just show it again.

author: chris_leyson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2018, 03:06:31 pm
content: You can't make this stuff up can you, absolutely brilliant. I hope the production run wasn't too big

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2018, 05:51:14 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on July 13, 2018, 09:12:47 amThis is eye-opening.I didn't think someone with the capability of replicating a PCB could be dumb enough not to know that an MCU requires code to work. I am amazed.

author: sokoloff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2018, 05:55:03 pm
content: Quote from: Rick Law on July 13, 2018, 05:51:14 pmI suspect this isn't the first device they'veripped offreverse engineered. "Just match the little white numbers on the little black things and you're good" has worked up until now...

author: schmitt trigger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2018, 06:10:57 pm
content: Unfortunately, they not only reverse engineer a working product, but cost reduce it as well.Those transient voltage suppressors, don't need them. Why the premium opamp, we have plenty of LM358s. Those film capacitors sure are expensive, substitute them by 'lytics....and so forth.

author: sokoloff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2018, 06:18:30 pm
content: Quote from: schmitt trigger on July 13, 2018, 06:10:57 pmBest of both worlds: get an LM358 with little white markings that match the original part...

author: AndyC_772
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2018, 06:30:25 pm
content: Quote from: chris_leyson on July 13, 2018, 03:06:31 pmI hope it was huge. I'd happily write some code that will save a massive pile of kit from landfill, and it's not like it's safety critical or liable to infringe anyone's IP.I get a pay day, the boards don't have to be scrapped after all, customers get their blinky-blinky light things, and the OEM gets a suitably costly lesson in engineering that they won't forget.Everybody wins.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2018, 06:34:09 pm
content: Quote from: AndyC_772 on July 13, 2018, 06:30:25 pmI agree. Sounds like a fun project to me. Every once in 10 times it gets powered on it does the knight rider effect ofcourse

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2018, 08:12:56 pm
content: Quote from: sokoloff on July 13, 2018, 05:55:03 pmThat people "ripped offreverse engineered" wasn't the surprise to me. What did surprise me was that the folks who did that was too didn't realize that an MCU needs code to function.I suppose, it is silly of me to expect thief to be intelligent.I recall a TV show on dumb things: two or three thugs who tried to rob a car repair shop and was told the manager with the key wouldn't be there till 10am (forgot what time, so I made the 10am part) , so come back later. The thugs did came back at the suggested time, and the police was waiting...This is the intelligence of the level of a chicken...

author: schmitt trigger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2018, 03:57:42 pm
content: Poor chickens, it’s not fair to insult them like that.YouTube is full of dumb crook videos.

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2018, 05:57:14 pm
content: My first thought was those bigclivedotcom videos too... and if I remember correctly, he even posted a link to the software for one of them.Also, you can find plenty of code online for the flame effect already...

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2018, 06:14:40 pm
content: Quote from: AndyC_772 on July 13, 2018, 06:30:25 pmTo add a twist, offer a massively discounted rate if they agree for the code to be open source.

author: AndyC_772
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2018, 08:25:58 pm
content: Quote from: NiHaoMike on July 14, 2018, 06:14:40 pmWhy would I do that?

author: bson
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 14, 2018, 10:27:47 pm
content: Quote from: CJay on July 13, 2018, 12:52:02 pm^ thisPlus they ripped off someone else's hardware. What would make anyone think they'd ever get actually paid for firmware? Dump 'em.

author: sokoloff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2018, 10:42:38 pm
content: Wire transfer up front before delivery of code solves that problem.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2018, 12:32:00 am
content: Seems like a potentially fairly easy problem to solve. There's probably some teenager out there who would be happy to write the code for a few hundred bucks. I have friends whose kids are coding by the time they're 5 years old, in the not too distant future consumer level software development could end up being a minimum wage starter gig like flipping burgers as much larger portions of the population learn to do it at a young age and it becomes nothing special.

author: StillTrying
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2018, 12:46:50 am
content: I can't help wondering if they kept calling the PCB assembler complaining that the things don't work.

author: Nusa
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2018, 01:13:12 am
content: Tell them to contact the people who made the original version of the board and negotiate rights to the original software with any modifications necessary.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2018, 01:18:08 am
content: Is the customer treez?

author: Berni
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2018, 06:38:41 am
content: Quote from: james_s on July 18, 2018, 12:32:00 amIf the software that's already shipping with some rushd electronics devices today is so bad how bad is it gonna get when a bunch of teenagers write it.Tho I don't se it happening anytime soon. All the times they tried to teach my schoolmates programming in high school and then university it never worked. Seams like you have to be interested in it to really learn it. With how kids these days seam to have shorter and shorter attention spans I'm guessing it's going to be even more difficult to get them to be interested in programming.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2018, 07:58:13 am
content: I don't know about that. When I was in school it was only the dweebs who were into computers and did any programming, I knew only a small handful of people even as late as highschool. Now like I mentioned I have several friends with young kids who are already coding, everyone uses computers now and it has lost its stigma. Sure not everyone is going to go on to be a brilliant software developer but with so many more people getting their feet wet at a young age along with a huge push for people to go into STEM education later on there are bound to be a lot of programmers. On top of that look at the software development process these days, so much of it is mobile apps and web pages, various forms of Agile and DevOps have taken over, nobody cares about quality anymore, just ship it now, fix it "later" with frequent or even continuous releases. It's set up for a race to the bottom where combined with increasingly powerful hardware writing good code is seen as less and less important.Now there are areas that are still going to require skilled developers - medical devices, avionics, safety critical stuff, but that's a relatively small portion of the jobs.