Request for knowledge - Troubles at home - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: lxmute
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2022, 12:07:40 am
content: Hello EEVblogers,I'm some Briton of Bretagne, my post will be quite long, facing a very problematic problem in my house, I'll try to be talkative as much as enlightening the problem. It started in July 2018. I stand still strong and face the Nightmare. What is it about ? It started on the Bastille day, 6 o'clock in the morning, everyone's asleep in France by that hour, that day in France, except my f* frog neighbor.I think it's an electrical problem, leakage currents maybe, I'm really not sure since it's not my job and I'm not an expert. I tried to request my electricity's distributor for help. In vain. I never experienced such troubles before that 2018 year. Have lived in different countries, different cities, never had trouble before that date. Today I can be quiet, no worries elsewhere, but not anymore at home. It's why I request help today.The neighbor is a backer, consuming about 3.000€ of electricity bill per month. (thank you Postman for confusing my Pobox and his). This backer has one 3phase + 1phase of my shared 3phase cable (where I have 2 lines). As I'll say later he recently added a second 3phase cable, so he got in total 2x3phase cable + One single phase cable.First time it started like on/off and stops like on/off and restarts again by pseudo-period since.I have gone through a lot of white nights since 2018 and I'm going totally exhausted this spring.I gave interest to Water distribution at first, thinking it was impossible to be Electrical. But the more I looked on it and searched, the more I was going dead end, seeing some aspect looking like an electrical problem. I finally ended to gave interest at EMI and Dirty Electricity documents. I gather every potential topics, and read about. I face like 16 symptoms of what a person affected by Dirty Electricity is said to experience by physicians.by instance experiencing 12 of 14 troubles listed there:https://youtu.be/AwuCXbrUZyQ?t=520plus sometimes tachycardie and magnetophosphenes. The most annoying problem being unable to sleep, sometimes up to 5 days in a row. You become very Angry.Having crawled the healthcare system in France, they all stated I'm perfectly fine. A professor of Nantes University Hospital categorized me as "Electrosensible". Everyone is in a sense IMHO, exposed to certains steps of Electricity. We got some build and shapes differences.I've made scientific studies, mathematics, physics, mechanics and engineering, then computer science. I would like to get further and bust the problem. I'm not necessary super skilled, since I focused on Computer programming for 20 years. I try my best to step back into hobby electronics for a few years.This is the frame.So I started by taking away the possibility it comes from my own system. All shut done, the problems continues.As the feeling was like a constant vibration, I started some experiences with Android tablets accelerometers and dedicated Apps => Mercalli's scale, plotting some noise. As it was giving results, but I was unable to log it, and since it's unfonctionnal on a Sensor+Proble basis I needed to find or build a system. (Having a job, being exhausted by lack of sleep, it took a bit of time to build a good solution.)Looking for sensor, I selected the MEAS Nanosense 100, good velocity and very sensible.It is quite simple, consisting of a Piezo-Electric sensor connected to some Arduino nano. Monitoring pins, the sensor sends its data to the Arduino, which throws it to some rPI clone. Some daemon listens and EPOCH+nanoseconds tags the figures collected each 10ms into some 15min files. Those files are thrown to a central server, I collect all datas into some Influx database, and monitor with Grafana.Here is some examples of what I plot:-https://imgur.com/a/8mS3Gbb----I've cabled my whole house, 2 levels + a basement a 10x20m garden to run ethernet cables everywhere.I monitor: back Garden, Basement in 2 spots, Ground level, Deskroom, Sleeping Room, Frontroom, Computer room.I've put that into my back garden. It's a quiet place, but as I feel the hassel in my whole property, it records movements.I also added some barometric sensor, temperature sensor, humidity sensor outside to check it has nothing in common with the waves I monitor.I also added RaspberryShake and RaspberryBoom to my sensors. Which points nothing particular about infrasounds and seismic movements.I also added 2 pairs of RLC filters on the front of my 2 incoming power lines, Neutral & Phase being filtered each.Then I added some microphones, recording my sleeping room all days long, a really impacted area of the house, close to the neighbor, and extract spectral traces out of records. I monitor the complete signal, and also extract a "zoom" on 20Hz-300Hz scale. Sometimes I have weird blocks of continuous signal, often on 50Hz harmonics, and 25Hz. "half 50Hz harmonic", can it be ?https://imgur.com/a/2vWCaHWWanting to be able to totally shutdown the power lines for some times and being able to continue to monitor with my piezo-electric sensors, I also acquired 2 PDU, with Voltage & Frequency probe on them, able to feed on each power line my servers, switchs, and particulary the POE switches that feed all the ZeroPi gathering the piezo-electric sensors.I see in the end constant and daily falls in the power given by the power company, on one line compared to the second one. But this happen during days, and the trouble is more important at night.. starting often just after midnight, and going quite regulary up to 3 or 4 days. You can't sleep in those case. Only parad I found is with a hammoc.I think that my sensor being behind a 5V DC POE feeder, being a PSU, behind some RLC Filter, my measures are mostly clean, not affected by noise. I maybe wrong ? Tell me please.Piezo-E sensors are sensible either to seismic factor, either to electrical noise, both. (I've seen on Piezotronics catalog their high quality models comes with filters to avoid Electrical noise below 3db. But I haven't those filters on mine.).So I monitor potentially movement and electricy IMHO. Am I wrong? but since I placed most of my sensors in very quiet areas of my house concerning movements, I'm mostly monitoring electrical phenomenons. Am I right?Sensor can be very sensitive. By instance if I enter my warehouse, the sensor located 12m away marks a spike, but spikes are really ponctual, and you can out them easily from the whole 10ms forest of measures. (can be a way to bust bed intruders and send 911 alert email..)Recently that d**** f***** neighbor added a new 3phase cable to feed his bulding, and I felt like things going harder.. but it's just feeling. I want TRACES and datas.So I acquired a Scope. and some multimeters to experience further.I was happy to later discover it was certified as beeing a some great entry level scope by Mr. Dave Jones himself..With a multimeter, plugged to Ground on one probe, plugged to a copper rod on the other probe, sticked to V AC,handling the rod, I'm able to go up to 12Vreadings on multimeter.So I plugged that same rod to the scope, and receive a complete 50Hz drawing. About 2V of height measured.I then plugged a second probe behind a laboratory Power Supply, throwing out AC as well and receiving a 2nd sinus wave. not in phase together.I have the relative chance of owning 2 independant power lines in my building. They come from the same 3-Phase cable coming from outside. 1 cable for each account. (The 3rd line of this cable runs to the neigbhORING Backer.)Connecting a second Laboratory Power Supply to my second line, and a third probe to it, I end up having 2 phases of the 3-phase.The third monitored probe, the copper rod, being not in Phase with each of my 2 lines.I feel that CopperRodSineWave looks like having something near of looking like the 3rd phase, but in negative response. I would like to be reviewed on that point, if it's of any interest of just crap I'm doing.https://imgur.com/a/EHZ6jxwI would like to request and ideas about what to do to spot a potential leakage current, the potential idea that it comes from the neighbor, with the fact it's impossible for me to talk with him. His wife HATES ME far enough to feel happy of my prejudice. The kind of witch you'll never want as a neighbor.To be sure, I also added a lot of gum carpet below a lot of electrical equipments in my house. I spent more bucks on changing computer fans for some low noise Noctua, changed PSU..Oh yes, I also bought some HF reader, to garante I'm not affected by the high frequency cellphones waves & so on.. Nothing's bad at all on that point.I'm fluent with Unix systems, C, PERL, C#, got some advanced level in Electricy Housing, Cable Monkeys stuff. I also studied enough on Laws of Electrocinetic, Electrostatic, Electromagnetism, Thermodynamics, Optics. I'm open minded, but totally lost at the moment finding not a single guy in my Area able to be Pro enough to come and point what is wrong. Plus, public services don't give a fuck.Should I go also for some expensive Gauss Meter ?fine grain Monitoring being the goal, and Justice for All.I'm open for any tips and tricks to bust the cause of the problem. Any technical help, advice would be much appreciated.thanks for reading that tl;dr.Best regards,Alex

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2022, 12:19:13 am
content: Didn't we get one of these sorts of "cases" just recently?

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2022, 12:40:59 am
content: Quote from: lxmute on June 04, 2022, 12:07:40 amI've left, the parts of your opening post, that make, at least some sense. Except that I can't really see what that (programming languages), has got to do with the rest of the post.Where is the bit, that gives a quick and easy summary of what the problem(s) or issues are, that you are trying to solve ?

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2022, 12:50:20 am
content: I read your whole long post, but nowhere have you actually said what your problem is?From what I can deduce, it seems to be some kind of health and wellbeing problem? You cannot sleep or relax? Something keeping you awake at night, but you don't know what?It would help enormously if you could actually say what ails you in your post. Identifying a problem is the first step to solving it.To be honest, what we can learn from your description is that you are somehow really bothered by your neighbor, and this is stressing you out, and the stress is affecting your health.I don't quite see how there can be a technical answer to this. In fact, all your efforts to try to measure "something" is probably feeding into your stress levels and making things worse. Stress and worry definitely cause sleepless nights.Can you get a friend or relative to come and stay with you and see if they feel anything, or have trouble sleeping? That would give you some idea of whether there is really something in the environment or not. It might give you some reassurance.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2022, 01:29:37 am
content: Yeah. Not sure I got what it's all about either.The only thing I saw is that the OP has made some measurements of acceleration and has noticed patterns. If their neighbour is using some kind of "industrial" equipment, I wouldn't be utterly surprised if that could generate vibrations that could be sensed, and maybe even subtly felt by humans, in a nearby house. And possibly that could prevent some sensitive people from sleeping.I'm not sure why the OP seems to be focusing on "electrical perturbations" (EM?), while they have measured vibrations that could very well be the source of their problem.In any case, if that's due to some new equipment the neighbour bought, and they are running a business (as I got?), unless the effect of this equipment was *very* noticeable (and not "subtle"), such as deep vibrations, noise > what's legally acceptable, whatever, I'm sorry to say that the OP probably has zero chance of doing anything about it except move out. The neighbour isn't going to stop using their equipment, which would harm their business, or buy something else, which would possibly cost a lot, or maybe modify the installation so that vibrations are limited, which would also cost money.So anyway, not quite sure what the OP really is on about, but if anything and from the little I got, I think they should possibly focus on this vibration thing rather than EMI, which has never really proven to have a sizeable effect on health or sleep unless it was so intense that you'd get other issues quickly. Just a thought.

author: sleemanj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2022, 04:51:19 am
content: TLDR whole thing.Probably like a water bore pump or something.

author: lxmute
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2022, 07:53:33 am
content: Quote from: MK14 on June 04, 2022, 12:40:59 amSorry it wasn't explicit to say so. It was a way to say I'm not worried about gathering, transforming and representing datas.Quote from: IanB on June 04, 2022, 12:50:20 amThe main problem ends up being the privation of sleep on an enormous amount of nights, for 4 years. that's why I'm requesting tips. The other disturbances are somehow minor compared to this one.I'm healthy and calm by the way, practicing Shotokan.My goal is to be able to categorize the exact trouble. So either Vibro-acoustic, either Electrical leaks.How could I monitor precisely 24/7 static electricity on a precise location ?

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2022, 09:12:10 am
content: You have not really described the housing arrangements. Are we talking about semi-detached houses here, with you and the baker (?) living wall-to-wall? Or are these separate, detached houses -- if so, how far apart?Is your neighbour operating a commercial bakery right in his home? If so, when does he start operations in the (early) morning? He won't let those ovens and dough-kneading machines run unattended overnight, I trust.Can you sleep well until he fires up the ovens? Have you tried going to bed early and rising when he does? It might not be your preferred lifestyle, but compared to the efforts and unhappiness you have been going through already, it would be an easy way out. Worth trying, I think -- if only for a few weeks, to see whether there really is a causal relationship between your sleeping problems and the neighbor's operation.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2022, 09:20:11 am
content: Ah, a baker? I hadn't quite figured out what backer meant.It follows, since bakeries work overnight to make bread by morning. So it could be noise disturbance that is the trouble.

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2022, 09:55:12 am
content: ... or the smell of freshly baked bread. It would certainly wake me up!

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2022, 11:04:37 am
content: Quote from: xrunner on June 04, 2022, 12:19:13 amI'm just trying to think of all the ways, it would be useful, for someone to repeatedly make accounts, just to question this kind of problem.What about a book author, researching into various technical reasons, that could disrupt peoples sleeping pattern?There does seem to be a theme, where they strongly dislike the neighbor.I wonder what is really going on?Question for the OP?(I know someone already asked), but how come you are living in a (what we call in the UK), business unit. I.e. Some kind of somewhat large, business building (rather small factory, for 1 to 40 workers, depending on size and stuff), rather than a normal home?Also, if you live in some kind of business unit. You kind of have to accept. That there can be various 'business' related activities, late at night. Such as security watches, deliveries, and sometimes, noisy machinery in operation.My understanding is sleep pattern disturbances. Is a somewhat common medical ailment, that people can suffer from. Which can have absolutely NOTHING to do with your neighbor. Unless the medical condition, is some types of mental illness, which makes the ill person, believe that stuff is going on, which is NOT really happening, they just believe that it is. E.g. Paranoid Schizophrenia.https://www.sleephealthfoundation.org.au/schizophrenia-and-sleep.htmlhttps://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4855992/https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5614792/Quote

author: jonpaul
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2022, 11:21:13 am
content: bonjour à tousSome of the OP long note may have miscommunication as it seems like he is French and not a native English speaker.The overall setup needs diagrams, maps and photos to understand the situation.We have seen cases like this in the USA, and they have never been resolved. Seems like a problem in medical or psychological rather than in electronic or electric area.If the OP experienced same symptoms when far from his property we could have a clew.When I was a power engineer I never noticed symptoms, working with 55 kV, 12 KW, and medical lasers.bon courage et bon santé à le OP !Just the ramblings of an old retired EEJon

author: lxmute
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2022, 12:40:07 am
content: Quote from: ebastler on June 04, 2022, 09:12:10 amwall-to-wall, yes. 2x Century-old houses. 2 different electricians have checked everything concerning my installation. Earth & equipotentiality have been tested.Quote from: jonpaul on June 04, 2022, 11:21:13 amIn my current problem, as I expect this from any future lawyer in Courthouse, I've done all medical and psychological circuit, Virology, Neurology, Psychology and I've been stated as perfectly healthy and in plain possession of my mind. Furthermore, I don't drink, I don't smoke, I don't do drugs. I run a business for many years with good success.Quote from: jonpaul on June 04, 2022, 11:21:13 amok boomer.I had not the faintest interest in my neighbor before troubles started to happen. It's the 7th baker I have there as a neighbor and never had to complain of any of them. Even that one, worked 10 years there before those troubles started to occur in July 2018. I have talked to him twice about this trouble, and he denied. So I try to record facts of what is coming from the "outside" in my house, and body. Shutting down the power line doesn't change anything. Cutting water, heater doesn't change anything.When there is no trouble at all, it's periodical, everything's back to normal. If I go streets away, everything's back to normal. If I sleep at a friend's house, everything's back to normal.Try to rest on a conductive plate powered with 12V AC/10mA for 30 hours and you'll maybe get the feeling.Nevermind, and eat the pension for which I pay taxes.and to end up all those stupid rants concerning Weltschmertz and psychology, as requested before,Quote from: IanB on June 04, 2022, 12:50:20 amI'd just like a module or sensor ref. able to monitor the seeping voltage, that difference of potential at a T time, that invades a room. I'll plug it into a microcontroler.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2022, 01:09:22 am
content: Is it a bakery next to you, as we are supposing? Baking bread?If so, there there is not much to it. There are big machines that mix the dough, which will have motors making a rumbling noise perhaps. And there are ovens to bake the bread, which will be pretty silent and have no moving parts except maybe some fans.Could it be you are being disturbed by the sound and activity of people working and operating machines in the early hours of the morning?

author: abquke
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2022, 01:26:01 am
content: From the engineering side: If you look for interference, you'll find it.From the human side: please consider the possibility that you're hearing things that others can't. I've had someone I care about a great deal go through it and it's something that shouldn't be stigmatized and can be treated.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2022, 01:27:17 am
content: Quote from: IanB on June 05, 2022, 01:09:22 amI'd think in that direction as well. Maybe low frequency noise issues. Random google find:https://www.merford.com/en/news/a-guide-to-low-frequency-noise

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2022, 01:37:49 am
content: QuoteIf its a commercial bakery the ovens may have a conveyor running through it.There surprisingly noisy places,spent several weeks in one a year or so back,hearing protection was mandatory everywhere within production and dispatch.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2022, 01:55:48 am
content: Quote from: themadhippy on June 05, 2022, 01:37:49 amIt's a possibility. Though I'm thinking this is more of a "high street" type bakery, than a "factory" type bakery.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2022, 02:18:17 am
content: I could not read any scales on the accelerometers, but clearly there is some vibration being transmitted to your house. The change could have resulted from a new installation at your bakers, a repair on existing machinery, or possibly due to a structural failure in one of your buildings that changes the transmission from his place to yours.I don't know if your jurisdiction has formal limits for noise and vibration, but if you can provide evidence that he is exceeding established limits you can force him to correct the situation.It is not unlikely that the "problem" be it mechanical, electrical, acoustic or whatever is below most peoples sensing threshold, but unfortunately not below yours. If this seems like a real possibility in your situation you might look into adding noise(nice white noise) which can be less objectionable than the original noise and will mask the problem. A variant on this theme is to keep a radio or stereo turned on fairly high.

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2022, 04:21:28 am
content: Quote from: xrunner on June 04, 2022, 12:19:13 amOh no, not another "What are they using on me" thread !

author: jonpaul
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2022, 09:47:45 am
content: Bakeries run 7 days a week and start the ovens and process very early moring.By mid moring, most have finished the days bread production.If you can get the timing documented, you may have a clew.AmicalmentJonPS: Retired but still work for a French Non-Profit.I have no pension, nor anything paid by your French taxes.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2022, 10:41:28 am
content: Quote from: lxmute on June 05, 2022, 12:40:07 amI am not a native English speaker myself, but I am pretty sure that this phrase is used in a dismissive way. If that was your intent -- dismissing someone who is trying to help, and implying that he is narrow-minded, out of touch etc. -- then I don't know why we should bother with further replies.Edit: Typo fixed.

author: macaba
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2022, 10:46:23 am
content: lxmute - you are probably aware of how strange this sounds. You have mentioned checking all the usual things with a doctor, so I can only suggest a few unusual things as to eliminate them:- Get a carbon monoxide alarm and keep it with you in the house to see if there is any CO gas (causes poor health and delusions).- Check if neighbour (or you) has installed ultrasonic cat/bat repellent (you might be able to hear it, causing poor sleep).- Have a sleep study done at a hospital for sleep apnea (causes poor health and poor sleep).

author: jonpaul
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2022, 11:08:27 am
content: Rebonjourindeed I mentioned that I am an "old retired EE" only to show my experience in design and consulting..... interference, power electronics and power quality.Are the bakery ovens electric or gas?Electric ovens may have phase control, but other types of control can cause flicker on mains, as heater load is modulated on/ off.Gas ovens emit CO and CO2 in the oven exhaustFinally all baking creates certain by-product vapors and gases...( alchols?)bon courageJon

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2022, 11:33:07 am
content: Sounds like a very low frequency noise problem.https://www.noiseandhealth.org/article.asp?issn=1463-1741;year=2004;volume=6;issue=23;spage=87;epage=91;aulast=wayeFraser

author: lxmute
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2022, 12:12:52 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on June 05, 2022, 01:55:48 amIt is indeed a high street bakery, with they whole production and storage within.As all of you seems to mostly insist on a Vibro-Acoustic troubles:Earlier in my life, I've worked for one year as a cook in a crowded restaurant. Levels of noise were high, the job was tiring, from 11AM to 2AM, but I never experienced the extreme sensations I experience nowadays.There was a particular event in September 2020. Contractors came at this bakery to dismantle the old Frost chamber and replace it with a new one. It took them 2 days of work. The first day they removed it. The evening I had a feeling of emptiness and silence in my kitchen as I was preparing food. I then slept like a bear at Winter.The next morning the contractors came back to assemble the new frost chamber, and finally plug the new pump. Stress came back.Here is the piezoE record of that period in the basement:So I'll have to dig into that direction?https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0079610706000927I then wonder why I read voltages on multimeters and scope.I'm gonna experiment, directing a turbine and changing speeds in front of one of those piezo-electric sensors I use.As some dork pointed brain trauma, here comes the "Schizo-Columbo" part.As I said I talked to that neighbor twice, the 1st time it was after the first problems in July 2018. The 2nd time, it was after COVID lockdowns, in May 2020. Why so long? I used of patience in between and started to find countermeasure, built a monitoring solution. Did a whole Health check.- The dude denied any possibility the disturbance came from his side, pointing during the speak responsability of local Sewages company, pointing the responsability of "Linky" Smart grid system, saying he talked to an architect that answered him it could be coming from 500 meters away. I had nothing more to say that it was weirdy and I will check those possibilities.- but for sewage & smartgrid possibilities, I wouldn't be alone in the city to experience such problems. It should be reasonably widely spread around a panel of other people.- I then objected him that I waited one year before coming, sure it wasn't coming from MY side, taking care I was isolated to experience the hassle before coming back.- Adding I wasn't experiencing the trouble each Tuesday's nights, the day when he is closed. Which was true until that day.- Adding he was the single guy in the whole street to work during Covid's Lockdown.- Adding he surprisingly made a try to work one tuesday's night in March 2020 and it ruined my -by that time- single night of rest.Going forward in the conversation, he came to tell me he was shutting down all systems at "week end" (his Tuesday), and on holidays (like 4 or 5 times a year).- After that meeting, thing changed, what was straight regular became pseudo-periodical, I could interpret as 'cover the tracks' if one hypothesis could be confirmed. (The dude is known to other neighbors for being sneaky, threatened another neighbor, a grocery store tenant, with a 30cm knife, and threw a can of frozen coke at his wife's head.)- Going around in the neighborhood at night with Spectroid & DBMeter in hand, I noticed he let everything powered ON, even lights, on his week-ends , on his holidays.- I finally noticed that deliveries also began to take place on Tuesday nights, which had never happened before.I monitored a bit the noise in his front door at night, going up to 60dB on some android App. I recorded on camera.As the trouble was really hard at 9 PM last night, I went to my back garden to experience if it was noticeable there. I climbed in a tree and rested there for about 10min, same feeling.If I rest in my hammoc, doing an oscillation, having referential of movement, mostly annihilates the stress.I was up till 5 AM, unable to sleep.Concerning the garden, I have a property wall which, for some strange reason, has a zinc cover.Dunno why but I yesterday's evening, went curious to climb the ladder you see on the picture and put my ear on the zinc. Doing so I clearly listen to some electrical noise. It was very buzzing last night. And renewing it this noun, it seems less noisy (not sure since the city is less quiet at this moment). But listening, it's clearly pulsating in perfect rythm.-> I'm going to buy some guitar's pad microphone and monitor this.-> have to Pull a cable to monitor the curve that the buzz of this roof can have on the oscilloscope.Fadding away from Vibro-Acoustic, my remaining question is why I still record AC Voltage on 3 different multimeters and scope when I renew the copper's rod experiment. And I feel necessary to also record & monitor that point on 24/7 basis, aided by some sensor.

author: lxmute
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2022, 12:43:11 pm
content: Quote from: macaba on June 05, 2022, 10:46:23 amI have and it's okay on that point. My building boiler is well maintained by a renouned company. Interesting question still.Quote from: macaba on June 05, 2022, 10:46:23 amI understand. I have 2 cats wich sometimes go on the rooftop you saw on the earlier picture.Speaking of animals, I also have 2 Syrian turtles in the garden. They are older than me, I grew up seeing them. I noticed in the worst periods of stress, unusual ways in their way of being, leaving the paws hanging out of the shell to sleep. And, it will seem strange, but when you know an animal you understand, having a look and a different face, like very tired too. It seems to me that turtles are described by naturalists as animals with no hearing, but with sensory capacities that are hypersensitive to movement.At these times I experienced very severe neck pain. Using a hammock for my nights freed me from that.Quote from: macaba on June 05, 2022, 10:46:23 amI'm in waiting list for that, Healthcare has gone crazy those years in France, in terms of delay.For a few months, I monitor my sleep with DREEM helmet, and a Xiaomi band 6. I also made tests sleeping on a boat's friend, it's amazingly healing.Quote from: jonpaul on June 05, 2022, 11:08:27 amIt's all Electric yes. He got 81kVA of power's contract. To compare, I asked to my ancient restaurant's boss, who replied me he had 45kVA of power.from what I understood what consumes in a bakery is the ovens, the cold chambers, the proofing room.Cold chambers consume more when at outside temp, to go to their working temperature, then regulated by the system when needed.Proofing room consumes depending on stocks of prepared stuff for the ovens.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2022, 01:47:46 pm
content: Quote from: lxmute on June 05, 2022, 12:12:52 pmThat zinc cover is to keep the wall dry so the inner doesn't get saturated with moisture.

author: SL4P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2022, 05:32:35 pm
content: It sounds to me like one of you is resident in the wrong zoning area.The neighbour is running heavy commercial equipment in a residentially zoned area, or you’re trying to maintain a residence in a primarily commercial area…Maybe one of you should be talking to the local froggy municipal zoning authorities.

author: jonpaul
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 06, 2022, 06:26:49 am
content: Rebonjour...to SL4P: Zoning enforcement depends on honest and uncorrupted politicians (:-:)In France, and Switzerland, outside of large cities, mixed zoning is common.20 km from Paris are huge apartment developments constructed adjacent to small residential homes and and in open space areas.Similar in Switzerland near Fribourg.Jon

author: lxmute
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 06, 2022, 08:42:18 am
content: Quote from: SL4P on June 05, 2022, 05:32:35 pmThis is were another nightmare starts. If you saw that cartoon:https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0072901/?ref_=fn_al_tt_1I've requested authorities, quite in vain. The different contacted services requesting you to contact another service, which leads you to a third one, which then tells you they are not qualified for it, an so on. Mayor, Senator, Deputy, Prefet doesn't give a F***. Grid distributor answers he is "not qualified" for measures.... The frequency agency sends you a contractor for High Frequency records when you expressly stated about low frequencies in your demand.I can't even handle the idea to sell or find a renter for my building, because it's not healthy ATM, and moral to sell such a place with some hidden problem.All those reasons makes I try to dig and study on my own, and end up requesting for help on a technical forum related to the Fairy Electricity.I hold the barbtw I had last night weird patterns on the 20Hz-300Hz spectrum on the microphone:

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 06, 2022, 08:45:01 am
content: Quote from: jonpaul on June 06, 2022, 06:26:49 amSo now you have made all of your investigations pointless. Even if you find something you believe that the politicians will let it continue.You need to move, wear earplugs, wrap your house in tin foil or take some other defensive measure. Trying the things you are willing to implement will be faster than the investigation.

author: lxmute
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 06, 2022, 09:00:36 am
content: Quote from: CatalinaWOW on June 06, 2022, 08:45:01 amdone, I wear some Shure earplugs, listening to some conferences or "NRG8" musics collected on Youtube.Quote from: CatalinaWOW on June 06, 2022, 08:45:01 amSure that some Farraday's cage (you still need the good frequency to select the correct mesh layout -> you need to monitor the correct patterns -> you need the good tool) + plates of cork between walls and the finishing touches would be good. But, the dude responsible for "the cause of the problem" has to pay for it.As soon as I put a clear responsibility, it will end up at Courthouse, Sacrebleu! And there, oddly, there are dozens of lawyers ready to respond to the request.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 06, 2022, 10:55:52 am
content: Quote from: lxmute on June 04, 2022, 07:53:33 amThere is near zero chance that any electrical or "vibro-acoustic" problems are actually causing your sleep issues.Start with getting a better pillow. Seriously. Then see a sleep specialist after talking with your doctor first.Odds are there is an easy solution to your problem. A whole host of things can cause sleep issues, and the technical things you are looking into are practically last on the list.But I'm afraid that you are now in a mindset where you have convinced yourself the problem is vibration/electrical related.

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 06, 2022, 10:59:12 am
content: Likely of no help to the OP but two stories of noise nuisances that baffled residents of areas effected.In Bristol, UK, there was a mysterious ‘hum’ that could be heard in the quiet hours that disturbed many peoples sleep. After much investigation it was discovered that the noise was coming from an aero engine manufacturers engine test bed. The test bed was bolted firmly to bedrock for stability and engine vibrations were transmitted into the bedrock, travelled many miles and re-emerged in an area of Bristol far away from the source. The vibrations came up from the bedrock under the houses. People were thinking the source was local to them, when in fact it was many miles away.Another mystery noise that afflicted US residents was a loud humming noise that seemed to only occur at certain times and no local cause could be easily identified. After an investigation it was discovered that the noise was being created by fish in a harbour some distance away. The fish were using the hulls of boats to amplify their ‘calls’ buy pressing their bodies against the hulls. Weird but true.Low frequency noise pollution can be very disturbing to anyone suffering from such. It can become a form of low level torture use as a dripping tap might if you can hear it, but cannot stop the noise being made. The brain can start to focus on the irritating stimulus to the point that sleep is affected and the noise becomes a serious problem to the person ‘hearing’ it. Note that noise does not have to be in the normal hearing range of a human to be detected by the body. This is especially true of low frequency noise where transmitted vibrations may be involved.Regarding the machinery use in the bakery…. What could be the sources of low frequency noise ?1. Any motor that is not vibration isolated from the buildings structure can transmit low frequency noise into that structure and local structures sharing the same foundations or party walks. The frequency of the vibrations can vary and multiple motors could, in theory, creat interference noise patterns due to differing vibration frequencies. Frequency mixing can cause very strange effects, including a drone and beat noises, just as happens with multi engine aircraft from WWII. Low frequencies can result from the mixing of multiple higher frequency vibrations.2. Ball race Bearings are used in machinery and these can be a source of noise and vibration. Ball race Bearings can be noisy in operation and when they fail they can be particularly noisy. He noise is usual, in the higher frequency ranges however. Frequency mixing remains a possibility however.3. Drive shafts turning at high speeds need to be balanced. An imbalance in a drive shaft can cause all manner of issues with vibrations and bearing damage. Not sure a bake6 would use high speed drive shafts though.4. Compressors are used in cooling systems and these are often a combination of an electric motor and a piston based compressor. The motor is capable of creating noise, as detailed above, and the compressor section is also capable of creating its own spectrum of noise and vibrations. Compressors can be very noisy in industrial settings. There are significant moving parts to create vibration. As previously stated, if the compressor is not vibration isolated from the building structure, it can transmit many vibrational frequencies into surrounding structures that have a common foundation or party wall.As an example of how small a noise source can be and still become an issue, we have cats and one night I was hearing an annoying hum in our house. I searched the house for the noise source and it was the cats water fountain pump in a down stairs room. My wife had cleaned the tiny induction impeller pump and set the water flow at a different volume. The pump resonated at 50Hz when pumping at that volume. Another noise incident occurred some years ago that could mainly be heard in the quiet hours within our house. After investigation I traced the noise to our Honeywell 2 way central heating motorised valve that is held in the ‘central heating only’ position with a constant ac supply to the motor coil. The motor was humming at 50Hz.Finally, there was a case of a lady having terrible problems with noise and vibration in her new home. The source was known….it was her washing machine. The problem was that the housing developer had placed the utility room at the centre of the house ground floor and this was where the washing machine was installed. The floor was a modern concrete / polystyrene block hybrid type and due to the floor design, it could act as a resonant diaphragm at low frequencies. The position of the washing machine at the centre of the house caused vibrations that were capable of making items walk off of shelving elsewhere in the house ! The solution was to move the utility room to the edge of the house floor plate but that involved major reworking of the house and the owner was understandably unhappy about this.Low frequency vibrations are very common in industry and I fear that the OP will not be able to solve this problem easily as such vibrations can be very challenging to cure, even if the owner of the source is open to such measures.Fraser

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 06, 2022, 11:00:11 am
content: Quote from: lxmute on June 06, 2022, 08:42:18 amNo one else will have any problems unless there are actual loud noises in the middle of the night. I'm sorry to say, but your problem is almost certainly entirely with you.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 06, 2022, 11:06:26 am
content: Quote from: lxmute on June 06, 2022, 08:42:18 amI bet you'll get all sorts of stuff like that in an apartment building or high rise hotel.Any bed matress is going to act as a huge attenuator to any building vibration.Heck, I had a visible vibration in my lab:

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 06, 2022, 01:12:37 pm
content: Reading this reminds me of the character of "Chuck" in Better Call Saul, a TV series. The character is convinced he is electrosensitive, to the point where he completely withdraws from his career as a partner at a law firm. However, he is unfortunately deluded. I will not spoil too much, but it is worth considering that it is psychosomatic. The brain can play tricks on the most sane individuals. And, if you have a friend stay over and sleep, and they do not have a problem sleeping, the chances are any future resident will be fine.Once you have convinced yourself there is a problem, you will stress yourself out and will not be able to believe that the problem is gone until you take action. The simplest action may simply be to move and put the neighbour behind you. If you feel that there is still a concern, you could perhaps get a professional noise survey done for some cost before you sell the apartment? (I am assuming you are not renting, if you are renting, then why worry because this is the landlord's problem.)Part of me wonders if you feel that you must solve this problem because it is an internal battle, rather than taking the easier option of withdrawing from the problem. If you do find the cause is something physical, what exactly will you do about it? No court in the land will uphold something if there is no law against the "noise" the baker is producing, except in very rare circumstances.

author: lxmute
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 06, 2022, 03:25:10 pm
content: Quote from: Fraser on June 06, 2022, 10:59:12 amA faulty Ball bearing from a semi-industrial fan hung on a supporting beam was part of my hypothesis during first year. (As written below), when the neighbor renewed flats in his building, I wondered how much I heard the drills and bore machines. As I was recording I have particular Spectrum of that period.Quote from: EEVblog on June 06, 2022, 11:06:26 amWhen the problem started, it was highly noticeable, head on the pillow.It's hard to notice as it is a very discrete shake. As soon as I sit down on my computer desk, get quiet to code, I feel it under the thighs when sitting. Foot on the ground I notice a feeling of impatience, as with the "ants in the legs". I rest my legs on some leather+foam pouffe to avoid as much as possible that impatience in the feet.Neurologist stated nothing particular when I visited her. I later made some Xray related to hears and the physician, a long time specialist, stated everything was fine. Good ear boy !I was particularly feeling well in the waiting room for the Xray chamber, weighted down by this big farraday's cage walls. *moan*If I lay down on my matress, the side laying connected to the matress is feeling it. And the most annoying the head's side laying on the pillow raises the same feeling. I would say the frequency your box shake on the video could be what I feel. So I tried to change matress. I put silent block under my matress. I put layers of antivibration gummies under those silent blocks. It was lowering a bit the stress. Doubling the pillow wasn't better (I sleep with german pillows, as they are best pillows IMHO, BIG pillows.)Added to the difficulty to sleep, I was waking up with cervical contractions, feelings of fatigue pain in the vertebral column.. Insane. My eyelids were turning black, with bags under my eyes.I dunno why but wondered how people are doing in high seismic activities' area, like in Central America or Japan, and remembered a friend told me about his year in Guatemala, and how people of that region put the brat in hammocks to make them sleep.So I bought a king size hammock. Effect was quite immediate. Where I wasn't able to sleep before like 7 o clock in the morning, totally exhausted from trying to fell asleep, and waking up at 8.30AM for the job.. *cheers*.I was still feeling some nights of troubles, thinking about it as "higher intensity" of what I get. But at least I was able to get to bed at midnight and do a complete night. What a deep progress. I think it took me like 14 months to regain the lost nights. And at least I can mostly sleep, be productive again.MrBakerNeighbor started to wipe his whole building floors and build 4 flats to rent in it.A point to notice was they dug a big hole just after their entry door, which is the closest to my Deskroom and Sleeping room, wall to wall.Asking a contractor there, he told me they were going to pass all cables there, a fill it with concrete. I was sleeping quite well at that time and feeling less stress. Even if the noise for building flats was high, I was going better.They stayed like 3 months with this hole in the entry and plywood boards above, making bread and "Le Patisserie" just nearby, without the slightest sanitary measures of insulation. Crazy.After one year of different daily noises, they finally ended up the construction process and added this winter a second 400A line to his building, to connect new flats. Which, ended for me as feeling higher stress. More hard nights like in the beginning.As some people pointed a cause effect to possibility: It's not some nocebo effect because I hate this guy and he is a complete stupid asshole. If there wasn't any trouble, I could perfectly live well just ignoring its proximity. As I already told Those troubles started long after he established his business there.I maybe forgot to mention the FIRST time it started, it was a beautiful and perfect weather outside. Birds were singing, I just woke up from a normal night, perfectly rested. Window was open. It was like 20°C outside. 6'O clock, not the faintest car's noise coming by the window. I had just the time to think about what I was going to experience with an old Amiga I was customizing during my week-end that I heard a loud scraping sound of cast iron, metal against what I interpret as tile or stone.Then the shit started, very high. I thought it was a refrigerated truck delivering a restaurant down the street. After 10min, I decided to go the street's front window. Nothing, not even a single bird whistling in the street. The "noise" never ended until the next TUESDAY afternoon, 15:40. I did a lot of shit in the week end, tried things to test my own house.Exhausted by the stress, I also tried in summer 2019 to sleep in like every parts of my house, even in parts of my warehouse of my business and in the attics. Shit was the same. The feeling can dominates all the grounds of my house sometimes.I never tested the basement to be complete, even if it's some descent concrete wall basement.I did tries to rent a tiny house in the countryside also. It was fine.If I go to a friend to sleep, it's just fine. But as we all have our own life, you can't always count of imposing your presence to friends.As It's a convenient way to travel as well, I'm about to buy a boat and sleep in it when the trouble is too high.Even hammered, I'm still interested to find the solution.To get back on Grid Another weird thing in the neighborhood, is that sometimes at night, opening the window, no one in the streets, I can hear sometimes a regular buzzing sound. And in the perpendicular street the same.If I go to the 2nd street next, nothing.Concerning my house, it's 12x8m 2 higher floors and a business on ground floor. Sometimes I feel the stress while working at the ground floor, but less frequently.On 1st floor I can feel the stress at table in the kitchen, but less frequently the same.I can feel a rythmed noise in the living room often at 19:00-20:00 in the evening. I have 4 windows there under the distribution cable that runs the length of my cornice.And nerdy, I'm mostly living on second floor. 1m50 from my office seat, there is this power distribution cable that runs all along the street.Concerning the garden, in the back of the house, separated from the street by the house. I can also feel the shit. There is a boiler at the bottom of the property, which belongs to the town hall, and is also supplied with electricity.This is why that small experiment with Copper rod and Multimeter reading Voltage on AC values remains still a point I'd like to perfectly understand.Last but not least, I've read our Grid distributor is removing RLC filters from their 20kV transformers because of SmardGrid communication. *I strongly need a bunk/debunk on that claim*. Could it be possible that strong interferences arise from that ?And that article raised my interest:https://www-bulletin-ch.translate.goog/fr/news-detail/generateurs-denergie-et-de-perturbations.html?_x_tr_sl=fr&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=fr&_x_tr_pto=wappAs there is a fair list of energy consumers on my power line.. I'm asking myself questions about it.This is becoming schizo some will say again. This is why I'm asking questions into a Cartesian forum.What I feel from my experience, but it's just my own empirism, I try to prove, is that there is Vibro-acoustic troubles AND Electrical troubles.Thanks anyway for all the interest and tips you already provided. As someone tipped, I think about leaving by the end of 2022. What interest me the most on writing all my wrong experience, are materials and techs I could use to bust the problem. Not here for whinings or receive sorry guy "bon courage". I don't feel the need to talk to a psychologist's cell. That's for loonies.I have courage.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 06, 2022, 11:18:34 pm
content: Quote from: lxmute on June 06, 2022, 03:25:10 pmPlease try and keep them separate!I am not aware of any proven case of Electromagnetic sensitivity beyond the occasional person with a conductive implant.Acoustic sensitivity (including infrasound/vibration) is a well known and accepted thing, different people are sensitive to this in differing amounts. Ignore the people who say it can not be your problem. Focus on that as its almost certainly the problem. If you want a simple but not cheap solution at your own location ask an acoustic architect/music studio designer to first measure (with a calibrated reference) the situation then suggest a remedy. The environmental/safety standards are set for "average" person and may not be enough for you, and are missing/inadequate at low frequencies. From your description I would guess an acoustically isolated room would fix your problems, but that might be more money than you can afford (ten to twenty thousand DollarEuroPound).

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 06, 2022, 11:27:58 pm
content: Quote from: Fraser on June 06, 2022, 10:59:12 amIf a neighbour annoys me to the point of no-return that is the method I would take! An array of low frequency speakers forming a focused point in their bedroom, warbling and cutting unpredictably. The environmental protection limits are completely inadequate in this area. A limit of dB A weighted at the nearest residential boundary is common in Australia (hence the above questions about the specific zoning).

author: abquke
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 06, 2022, 11:30:00 pm
content: I'm reminded of this:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hum

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 07, 2022, 12:00:18 am
content: Quote from: Someone on June 06, 2022, 11:27:58 pmI agree. Over here low frequency noise pollution is getting more attention fortunately.

author: eti
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 07, 2022, 05:00:01 am
content: You're in France, the land of the French, and you're rude enough to refer to them in such an unkind, potentially racist manner? Watch your step old bean; *you're* the outsider there!I got to that comment and didn't read any further, what an ignorant statement to make. As an English person myself, even I can understand that the French have far more class and culture than most English people could ever dream of having.

author: eti
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 07, 2022, 05:06:16 am
content: Quote from: ebastler on June 05, 2022, 10:41:28 amIn the handful of times that some ignoramus has referred to me as "boomer", I've chuckled to myself, very content in the knowledge that I've lived much longer than them, have more experiences and understanding.

author: Kasper
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 07, 2022, 05:48:50 am
content: Just move. It would be so much less effort than all of this.Even if you find the cause, are you going to be able to fix it?It is nice of you to consider the next residents but maybe they won't mind it. If you invite people over, do they hear the noise?I lived in an apartment that was not designed for hard floors. The people above me installed them anyways. They broke rules and I proved it. It didn't help. I asked them nicely to put down rugs or replace their carpet. Didn't help. I even offered to pay part of it. Didn't help. I became very unhappy and faught back. Created my own noise. Successfully made it unbearable for them. Didn't help. Instead of fixing the problem they caused, they moved out.Finally I sold at a loss and gtfo. Problem solved. I can not believe I lived like that for as long as I did. Even though I lost money, I am so happy I left. I didn't want to pass the problem along to someone else but what more could I do? I tried harder to fix it than most people would and that was enough. Hopefully the new owner rents to young partiers or other people that aren't as bothered by noise as I was. At the least, they wouldn't have the whole frustrating history to make matters worse.You have put more than enough effort into solving this. It is clearly a terrible place for you to live. So move.If you really want to keep it then rent it out. Hopefully your tenants won't mind. If they are bothered by it and move out then you have more evidence to show the city the neighbor is being unreasonably loud.

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 07, 2022, 05:55:04 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on June 07, 2022, 12:00:18 amOff topic, but yet the Dutch government is working on laws to only allow hybrid central heating systems as a replacement from 2026 onward. Most of these systems use air to water heat pumps, which make noise. Imagine a "nice" vinex location or a town like Amsterdam with all the houses fitted with such units what a noise level that might bring.Edit: It might be read as that every body had to get a new central heating system, so added "as a replacement". Only when you need a new one you have to install a hybrid.

author: jonpaul
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 07, 2022, 06:02:17 am
content: Rebonjour, I address the French tradition of La Politesse..politeness.In France, we constantly use the formal phrase "S'il vous plaît" = SVP = If you please... to ask for anything...even of a close friend or a market vendorIts a pity that this French custom of polite communication has been forgotten or (never learned) by some of the younger generation.I humbly suggest that the OP, moderate or review comments to be a bit more more polite, and less critical of forum members, who are only being polite enough to use their time assist others.Je vous prie de croire, Monsieurs, à l'assurance de mes salutations distinguéesJon

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 07, 2022, 07:05:36 am
content: Quote from: pcprogrammer on June 07, 2022, 05:55:04 amMore uninformed/irrational heat pump scare mongering! Australia has limits on domestic appliance noise, 45 dB(A weighted) at the boundary. With plenty of installs being built right on the boundary the majority of new heat pumps meet the requirements so its not even an extra cost. There are legacy heaters gas/oil/heat-pump that fail that limit too, but since the rules only apply to new installations they get away with it.

author: JohanH
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 07, 2022, 07:32:37 am
content: Quote from: pcprogrammer on June 07, 2022, 05:55:04 amScaremongering. I used an air-air heat pump for maybe ten years in parallel with an oil burner. Couldn't hear the outer unit inside, the oil burner had more noise. Now using a ground source heat pump and it is more quiet than the old oil burner.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 07, 2022, 08:01:23 am
content: Quote from: Someone on June 07, 2022, 07:05:36 am45dB(A) is rather loud especially if you want to sleep with the windows open. And as I wrote before: measuring in dB(A) is horribly wrong because it won't account for low frequency noise.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 07, 2022, 09:58:26 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on June 07, 2022, 08:01:23 amThat's at the boundary, not in your room. Its very quiet, and the absolute maximum upper limit for new installations (most end up quieter again). People walking around their house or having their TV on is louder.

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 07, 2022, 11:48:31 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on June 07, 2022, 08:01:23 amA neighbor of ours has a unit outside his house, and only when we walk by I can hear it, but this is 170M away from our house, so no biggie, but hang multiple of these units of building walls and who knows what resonance pattern comes to life.Resonance is a bitch. When I still lived in the Netherlands it was in a rural village but across the road from our house was Nunhem zaden (now BASF) and they build a power house at some point. I started to hear the hum of it in our house and complained about it. They were very helpful and installed a special filter in the chimney of the power house, which solved the problem. During the time it caused us hinder I could hear it louder at certain points in the house due to resonance.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 07, 2022, 11:11:25 pm
content: Quote from: pcprogrammer on June 07, 2022, 11:48:31 amIs that a modern quiet unit, or some older noisy one? What is its noise 1m from the source? how far away were you standing to it?Some days I can hear small birds tweeting in the park 100m away, were they loud or was the environment very quiet?When your neighbour is 170m away that sounds like a very rural/spread out area that would usually be a quiet environment to begin with."I once heard some noise from a heat pump" does not imply cities will become noisy if heat pumps become mandatory.Like we say, there are noisy appliances, gas heaters can be equally as noisy as heat pumps. But modern noise restrictions have forced all the different heating/cooling options to be much quieter than they used to be (when they had no specific limits).

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 08, 2022, 10:48:40 am
content: Most big cities in hot parts of the world have air con for apartments and houses, and besides faulty units I've never thought they were all that loud while running.

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 08, 2022, 11:19:58 am
content: It is not a to modern unit, and it is no problem certainly with the big distance between the houses. That is why we live here.When we are in the Netherlands even in the south (Roermond) there is a constant background noise of traffic and industry of some scale. With near 18 million people it is very crowded. Here within a village of ~100 people most of the time it is just nature. Which can also be very loud (birds, frogs, deer, cows, wind, etc.) but also very quiet.Long time ago we went to America and flew into Las Vegas to start our trip touring that part of the states. For the first night we had a room in one of those casino hotels. Could not sleep due to the air-conditioning units on the roof. There was no quit spot in the room to be found. It might be that I'm very sensitive for noise, and even though I'm getting older my hearing is still good. Only in the top frequencies >6KHz my left ear is a bit below normal, for the rest still above.And there in lies the difference, some people are sensitive to even the smallest sound, and others can sleep with a busy highway nearby.

author: JohanH
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 08, 2022, 12:02:23 pm
content: Quote from: pcprogrammer on June 08, 2022, 11:19:58 amIn the army I remember sleeping in a ditch behind the shooting range, waiting for my turn while the other fired on!

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 08, 2022, 01:57:41 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on June 08, 2022, 10:48:40 amThat's not my experience.Quote from: pcprogrammer on June 08, 2022, 11:19:58 amThis.In hotel rooms that have one of those window mounted or wall mounted aircon units, they are usually so noisy that I cannot sleep with them running. I have a choice of a cool room with too much noise, or a quiet room that is too hot. My usual strategy is to run the thing at max all evening, then turn it off before sleeping.In residential neighborhoods with pad mounted central a/c units, they make an unmistakably loud humming and whirring noise. I can clearly hear when units in nearby houses switch on.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 08, 2022, 02:07:53 pm
content: I think what this says more than anything is perception is everything. Some people don't care whereas others the slightest sound while sleeping keeps them awake. May even be the OP's problem.When we were in Spain we stayed in a modern hotel which had central AC. The rooms all had air handlers in them. We had that on full power overnight and you could barely hear it yet the room was essentially a fridge.The worst units are the non-inverter types due to the cycling. The inverter units in my experience tend to be very quiet once they are 'up to power', and the 'ramp up time' is quite short (10-15 minutes.)Even my car has a 24,000 BTU A/C system (plugin hybrid) and on full blast pulling 2kW from the battery, it's only noticeable if you're directly in front of the fan. Otherwise, you can barely tell it is running. That is a variable-speed compressor as well.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 08, 2022, 03:06:46 pm
content: You are aiming at some very low noise levels. Weighting is an issue but there are real practical limits. I live in a very rural setting where the tire noise of a single vehicle passing is quite obvious. But the sound pressure is in the mid 30s of dB. That residual noise is the rustling of tree leaves, insect calls and whatever. Inside the house with windows closed it is lower by a few dBs. Trying to lower noises below that is very challenging, which is why I earlier suggested masking. Use a white noise generator (or one of those "soothing" background music channels) to create a sound (or vibration) level 10 to 20 dB above your problem. Initially annoying the mind fairly quickly adapts and ignores lower level disturbances.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 08, 2022, 04:11:52 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on June 08, 2022, 01:57:41 pmSame here. I have fights with my wife over having the aircon on in hotels because they make too much noise for me to sleep well. Things get worse if the hotel room is in a bad position where you can hear the outside units. Definitely a reason to change to a different room.At home I installed the quietest aircon I could find and mounted it the indoor unit in the hallway instead of in the bedroom.

author: lxmute
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2022, 07:31:07 am
content: Hello,Your replies were helpful to bring me back to the "sound aspect" problem.Requesting help from a specialist in EMI and its derivatives, I've been led to the problem of Infrasounds generated by harmonics inducted by high power + high frequencies (moderated since in 90kHz range) at a low frequency range on unshielded city grid cables.Sacrebleu! I think I'm in a deep sh?t to monitor this with accuracy.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 02, 2022, 09:19:55 am
content: Quote from: lxmute on July 02, 2022, 07:31:07 amErr, how do the city power cable induce low frequency sound? What is the physical mechanism?Sorry to tell you, but it sounds like you have been peddled some BS

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2022, 09:50:17 am
content: That's what I thought... Also, where is the 90 kHz carrier supposed to come from, with a 50 Hz power grid and mainly resistive loads in the bakery's ovens?Sounds like that "specialist in EMI" might be someone who cashes in on people's diffuse fears of "bad electrical fields" by selling them some phantasy consulting services. Does he have a name and a website maybe?

author: lxmute
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2022, 11:09:54 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on July 02, 2022, 09:19:55 amMy query came from 2 assertions made on an industrial keynote about shielding,« the higher the power, the bigger this EMI becomes »« high voltage in addition to high frequency, you generate low frequencies EMI »The doctor speaking was talking about high frequencies in general, producing some harmonics going into lower frequencies.So I simply requested, if it can be possible, that on a high power source, a lower frequency that what you expect when saying high frequencies, some RF signal then, could also produce some harmonics, in a lower range, so very low range frequencies, so infrasounds, was a domain of possibilities. I received a firm confirmation.90kHz is what I call "RF" here, since it's in the RF range field. Correct me if I'm wrong.Quotehttp://scent-itn.org/emi_cenelec_freq.htmlI will put efforts into improving my RaspiBoom noise cancellation. I also would like to put my hands on such device:http://article.nadiapub.com/IJSIP/vol8_no9/22.pdfIf you need to visit a lovely place, Brittany is nice, and want to experiment the trouble by yourself, my home is openA last note, there is a bloom in France of people being hardly hit by infrasounds, on the whole territory. Which ignited 2 years ago my curiosity.and btw I'd just like to get back to normal things in my life. Coding, Woodworking, Sailing. Just a few months of stamina, I sold out my business and just quit the frogs country.QuoteI would say the bakery still remains a possibility, but also a noise, or even a B Factor on a A+B problem.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2022, 12:50:00 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on July 02, 2022, 09:19:55 amPass enough current through a cable and it will start to move due to the magnetic field. Lookup some videos about arc melting furnaces. You can see the cables dance around. The same can be seen from cables going to spot welders. Heck, I even managed to make test leads move on my desk by discharging a capacitor bank causing a 1kA current spike. All in all it is possible that cables move or vibrate.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2022, 12:51:27 pm
content: Quote from: lxmute on July 02, 2022, 11:09:54 amYes, power line communication is a thing. But those signals are not "high power". Even in the presence of non-linear effects, which could in principle generate sub-harmonics, I struggle very much to see how they could induce noticeable audible or sub-sonic frequencies.You are barking up the wrong tree. The multiple earlier posts which were encouraging you to look into low-frequency vibrations, were trying to lead your thinkingawayfrom the EMI you were so concerned about. We were talking about the possibility of purely mechanical vibrations introduced from the bakery. You somehow managed to connect this back to your favorite concerns about EMI again, which I think is misleading you.QuoteMass hysteria?(There's a peculiarity here with English, by the way. "Hardly" means "barely, not much at all". What you probably mean is that people were "hit hard" or "hit heavily" by infrasound. Although I believe that what you accidentally wrote, namely that they were "hardly hit", happens to be correct.)

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2022, 12:56:35 pm
content: Quote from: ebastler on July 02, 2022, 12:51:27 pmI agree with this. The problem is most likely to be acoustic. A good first step is to use vibration sensors to measure if, where and how the house is vibrating.

author: Coordonnée_chromatique
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2022, 01:51:49 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on July 02, 2022, 09:19:55 amIt seems to be a misinterpreted resurgence of a blurry souvenir :https://www.researchgate.net/publication/320106708_Low_Frequency_Oscillations_in_Large_Power_Grids

author: lxmute
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2022, 06:48:05 pm
content: Thank you, I will read this document.Can a 65kV power grid transformer be considered as « high power », enough for this ?I'm also wondering about neighborhood 20kV transformers.Call me weirdy if you want, but there is a transformer 500m away, cables hidden into the ground. As the cable path is covered by new asphalt, you can clearly see its path. If I stand on that cables path, I feel under foot exact the same rythmic hassle as in my desk room.As I'm wondering a bit about high power and how transformers are working, concerning all those neighborhood transformers, are they weighted by some barycentric law to handle a working stability altogether ?Strange things happened in 2020 here, 3 walls just next to 3 transformers felt down. Then feb. 2020, the wall of a transformer just split in two parts, the 20kV transformer within exploded.I'm learning a lot by your objectivity, comments and doubts in the end, which is always good. Thanks.

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2022, 07:14:52 pm
content: It might depend on the amount of power being drawn, but we have a barn with solar panels nearby, which is connected via a transformer system (Big green cabinet with death warnings on it) to high tension lines. When I walk by I can hear the transformer (within a meter or three of the cabinet) but I can't feel any tremors in the ground when I walk on where the cables are in the ground.So either a lot of current is running through the cables and they move so much that you can feel them or you are very very sensitive.The smaller pole mounted transformers will probably make some noise but I don't hear the one that is next to our neighbors house, and I have sensitive ears.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2022, 10:27:26 pm
content: I suspect any motion in the underground cables is damped by the earth's mass pretty quickly.Exceptions would apply if they run close to structural members, for instance if a transformer pad was on the same pad as your building foundation. I think that would be pretty odd, but some larger apartment complexes have their own mini substation/transformer inside them for residences. And, in busy/dense urban areas they tend to build substations into similar looking properties, e.g. there are some of these in London that hide infrastructure for the Underground.I think it's important to make measurements of any noise before assuming this is the cause though. I'm still reasonably convinced this is psychosomatic -- that doesn't make it any less real to you but it means you won't fix it with a physical change unfortunately.

author: lxmute
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2022, 11:57:29 pm
content: Yes, it's a good point.I'm currently reading a paper made by an acoustic office, a study for a nearby 65kV transformer in NE France. It's very complete and professional acoustic paper. I can't do that on my own.« There is a time when you need to call for experts ».I will spend more bucks, hiring such dedicated experts in noise measures. I'll keep you informed in the following months if curious about my case.Quotelet's have some fun, ex-wife told me I was way too much insensitive

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 04, 2022, 06:03:47 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on July 02, 2022, 12:50:00 pmYeah but he's talking about "unshielded city grid cables".Are we supposed to seriously believe the "city grid cables" are physically vibrating and causing this guys sleep problems? Really? Nope, sorry, it's BS.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 04, 2022, 06:05:02 am
content: Quote from: lxmute on July 03, 2022, 11:57:29 pmUse you money to see a sleep medical specialist.And like I said, start by buying a good well designed pillow.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2022, 06:21:28 am
content: Quote from: tom66 on July 03, 2022, 10:27:26 pmTransformers might be a different matter than cables. Transformers are designed to create a large magnetic field in their cores, and magnetostriction can translate that into mechanical vibration.But the fundamental frequency for such vibrations would be 100 Hz -- hardly infrasound, biut well in the audible range. One mighthearthat frequency (and we all have, from small transformers, especially when they are not mounted well and transmit noise further). But it's hard to envision a scenario where one wouldfeelthe vibrations, and especially where one could feel them but without clearly hearing them too.

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2022, 09:30:55 am
content: @lxmute, I sympathize with you and can relate to some extend.In your quest to find the root of the problem you might find it, but keep in mind that when you are the only one experiencing it, getting a solution will not be simple. If it turns out to be a transformer station and you are the only complainer it is most likely nothing will be done about it. Then moving is the only option.If it is something within yourself, then you might never find the root and then moving will not help either.The latter is what I'm most likely experiencing. I'm diagnosed by exclusion with "chronic fatigue syndrome" with an emphasis on "fibromyalgia" which is a muscle disorder. For already twelve years now I'm also suffering from a "background hum" like a stationary tractor running next to the house. Sometimes it is louder then other times or even not there at all and the last couple of years I also feel small tremors that seem to coincide at the same frequency. Since I experience this everywhere I go and it disappears for a while when I take a warm bath, I'm pretty sure it is my own body causing it. For these symptoms there are no solutions found yet.Boils down to that I just have to learn to live with it. I'm happy to still be able to do things like walking and small jobs around the house and my electronics hobbies. Others with this CFS disorder are wheelchair or bed bound.My advise, do not obsess on it or it might drive you mad.

author: Kasper
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2022, 06:09:45 pm
content: Quote from: pcprogrammer on July 04, 2022, 09:30:55 amI agree. If you can't find a lot of other people complaining about it then it is very unlikely you can do anything about it. Even if you find a lot of complainers and figure out the problem and prove it is the problem and come up with a reasonable solution, it will still be very difficult to apply the solution.If you move, you could find a bigger problem that affects more people and solve that instead. And you'll probably be a better problem solver at the new home since it'll be easier to think clearly.

author: lxmute
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 09, 2022, 02:59:18 pm
content: Hello,Big change happened this week. The Grid company made unwarned shutdown campaign on many transformers of the city during the night. I was already awaken by the stress by 4 AM. My PSU went ringing at around 5 AM. I had a 10min downtime. During that period all the stress vanished. My piezo sensors continued to record, some big changes, lowering all the noisy signal to nothing.At morning a lot of citizens complained on facebook about hours of shutdown in their neighborhoods.Asking them, the technical office of the city, told me that an exceptional operation of cuts on the transformers took place, in order to determine the source of a cabling defect.A citizen told me he wasn't wired until 13PM and saw the Grid operators work on his transformer. Problem, that transformer is located 3km away from me.Since I feel everything just different. Since, my infrasonic sensor stopped showing over-saturated patterns.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 09, 2022, 04:48:14 pm
content: Sadly you still have not eliminated the psychosomatic incidence. You knew about the power cut.Do you have trouble sleeping elsewhere?Before you spend hundreds of euros more - maybe rent a hotel for one night near your home and one further away and note the quality of your sleep. I appreciate you know that you're somewhere else but you can try and see if you sleep more comfortably.Ask a friend to sleep over when you're away and report any symptoms.

author: JohanH
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 09, 2022, 08:19:18 pm
content: Quote from: lxmute on July 09, 2022, 02:59:18 pmNot a "problem". Some weird fault in the network could affect the whole neighborhood. I can't bother reading the thread again, but did anyone ever put an oscilloscope on the electrical signal? If there were bad disturbances or phase shifts, it could in theory cause machinery doing weird stuff, causing even more disturbances. It is beyond me, though, how a human could detect it, but it sounds like in this case it has also caused physical disturbing phenomena, like vibration, infrasound or some such.

author: lxmute
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 09, 2022, 10:51:28 pm
content: At the moment I just feel good *again* in my home. Standing on the floor doesn't provide any stress. Which is my only goal in this weird story. It feels "empty" of something that became a "daily dose" during 4 years. Watching again RaspiBoom datas tonight, I'm prone to confirm everything's changed.As someone wrote earlier, a trouble miles away can emerge at a particular spot. Maybe some sort of "barycentric" equilibrium between transformers like I asked about. I'm not qualified enough on high power domain and tricks to judge.Anyway.. I really really really hope the current working state will remain stable.I just feel some slight shake at my desk (what I would qualify as "transient noise" feeling), 2 meters and a wall near of the bend of 3x3-phase cables.For the tip about renting a place elsewhere. I experienced same feeling, with slight differences 5km away. It was starting 5AM. I experienced it 300km away as well, 30m near of a transformer, 1st floor, but slept well in that same city, in another hotel, 10km north, 6th floor. This sensibility is like a 6th sense.last singularity: In my garden I have 2 desert tortoises. Then are older than me. Over those 4 years I saw them behave differently than 42 years before. I saw them tense, sleeping in places in the garden where they had never slept before, letting themselves be exposed to the weather in the middle of winter when they were protecting themselves before to hibernate. Letting their legs hang out of the shell while they never did that. In the end, very close to what I was trying to produce myself in my habitat.Weirdy.. not that weird to my experience.So what should I conclude ? Some dumbass contractor plugged a 3 phase cable into the ground and it was just leaking during 4 years? Arriving by a vein of water in the moats of my medieval district? Is it possible ? Since I'm not on the side of the Grid Company's knowledge, I can just formulate an hypothesis. The shutdowns and operations recently made, semt to solve the problem.

author: lxmute
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: February 21, 2023, 03:23:16 pm
content: Hello,some fair amount of time have passed. I wanted to gather what I consider to be important facts before going further on that (somehow extra-)ordinary topic.I recently had a talk with an electronic engineer, he gave a look at my building, and noticed a fundamental and problematic fact: the three-phase cable from power company touches my building gutter, made of zinc-galvanized steel.Taking a EF meter, and scanning the gutter, I have E field going up to 350V/m. If I take the gutter on the opposite side of the building, E's right at 0V/m.I went further also with audio microphone, infrasounds, and seismic sensors, getting phased recordings. Some B+A.sin(w.t) sinewave close to 25Hz.Taking a BPM app, tapping on it in rythm to the feeling of spikes, reversing the BPM, I end up with 0.83Hz frequency. I have just graphical view of that wave, yes I should dig further into data analytics and numpy to find the exact values, but it would mean I'm flickering between 25Hz (+/- 1Hz) and 25.83Hz. I have scanned all acoustic footprints of my devices at home and find nothing corresponding to that 25Hz device.Could it be a link between both of them ? Lorentz force is able to move cables. What would be the power going through a cable to mark a slightly micro vibration ?

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 21, 2023, 03:44:31 pm
content: Quote from: lxmute on February 21, 2023, 03:23:16 pmIf you actually had an E-field of 350V/m, this would be comparable to standing next to an operational television transmitter. You would suffer generally serious side effects, far beyond some quality of sleep issues. I suspect your meter is faulty or you are misreading it.Did the engineer concur with your measurement... and are they a qualified engineer?

author: JohanH
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 21, 2023, 04:21:42 pm
content: In general, metal pipes and other metal structures in a building should be grounded by connecting them to a common ground point (usually at or nearby the incoming electrical service panel), which is connected to a ground rod. Not many connect objects such as gutters and roof (might be different legislation in different countries also), but it is beneficial that every metal object is grounded. If it's done as a lightning conductor, roof and gutters should have copper cable into the ground in each corner of the house, that is then connected to a common ring around the house. If it's for grounding in general, they should be connected to the common point where the house otherwise has it's main incoming electrical panel and ground rod. This way there will be no induced electrical fields in the metal objects.

author: lxmute
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2023, 10:24:04 am
content: Quote from: tom66 on February 21, 2023, 03:44:31 pmWatching my building on StreetView, he pointed me the fact the cable was in contact with the gutter, which I confirmed after eye-checking. So on this remark, I had the curiosity to point an E.B meter at the gutter. And renewed it multiple times under a weekly frame.Quote from: tom66 on February 21, 2023, 03:44:31 pmI've ordered a Trifield TF2 to compare those figures, made with a "Mustool MT525". It's the low cost reader okay. It seems correct while pointing it at all devices sucking E in the home.Quote from: tom66 on February 21, 2023, 03:44:31 pmConcerning body troubles I wanted to stay kinda silent on it, not liking to complain like cub and my view on the topic being a technical seek.. but let's go with what I experienced growing throughout months:By instance, when sitting at my Desktop to work, I feel micro deformation of the position of the skeleton due to some constant feeling of stress. I switched for a new chair without change. Once this feeling of displacement in place in my skeleton, I have to do some karate stretching to get it back on track. Ok wrong position and body misplacement is a normal topic.. But I never had such experience, and got a fluid body because of karate practice.Acoustic problems like tinnitus that vanish after like 4/5 hours away in the countryside.High concentration problems to produce code or write an article without chopping words when earlier I was switching between C, C#, Java, Unix Administration in all directions without a pain.Last but not least, neck pain both sides, cerebellar pain on left side. Cables are left of me while sitting at desk. I should swap rooms, but swapping bathroom and lab room is heh..I will have a question, having not enough knowledge concerning RF levels and power levels involved to be harmful for the human. Can this 400V 3 phase cable that overlays G3 alliance PLC signal, harmonics, and all kind of noise from multiple neighbors be harmful in terms of EMI emissions ? Shorter question, where can I find information, warnings, scientific datas about emission levels and recommendations on VLF/LF/MF antennas ?I plugged a KiwiSDR with a 5kHz-30mHz antenna in the living room, distant from this cable by about 8 meters and the spectrum is totally jammed on the 5-500kHz. (https://imgur.com/a/RIXIAng)Like with the "Mustool vs TriField", I'm in the process of ordering a quality-certified antenna.. buying cheap is buying twice...Quote from: JohanH on February 21, 2023, 04:21:42 pmI will follow your wise advise concerning the grounding. Cablemonkey tasks in list... On that point, in November I went rappelling on my roof to install Starlink, and I had the same weird stress growing, while sitting peaceful the instant before. The roof is a 5% angle top made of following layers: wood structure, zinc, tar.

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 25, 2023, 06:37:52 am
content: "renewed it multiple times under a reviewed frame..."Aww OK, that's it. You verbalize, or half-verbalize a little trickle of 'new' info, containing several more half-described issues, but never really answer a direct question; always with some more half-coherent info.Basically, stating that 'other' places don't do whatever you complain about; PROBLEM SOLUTION SOLVED!You just need to go elsewhere.Move to some other place. Done.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 25, 2023, 08:37:31 am
content: Remotely diagnosing personal issues is even more questionable than remotely diagnosing technical problems. Nevertheless, let me venture this: You should be open to the possibility that you have an obsessive/compulsive problem here.I think the solution is more likely to be along the lines of behavior therapy, than by forming a series of "scientific" hypotheses based on forum advice and Youtube videos, buying more measurement equipment, and making technical changes to your home.Please don't take this as a personal attack. I am genuinely trying to be helpful, and think you are barking up the wrong tree.

author: arcfault
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 13, 2023, 04:55:42 am
content: This is quite the interesting thread. Any update, OP?