Edward Snowden affairs, what say you ? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2013, 08:40:24 am
content: CNN ->Europe furious, 'shocked' by report of U.S. spyingHighlights :The Guardian reports that U.S. surveillance targeted 38 embassies and missionsDer Spiegel reports that the U.S. bugged EU offices and infiltrated a computer networkLooking at recent development, apart from the argument/discussion whether he is a bad or good guy, actually I'm thinking about those electronic "gadgets"that have been implanted all this time throughout the EU countries places like consulates/gov commerce offices and etc as Snowden leaked out.For sure, EU countries security or counter intelligence officials are busy right now sweeping and hunting them down. Really eager to watch whether there will be a public exposure by one of the pissed off country on those gathered surveillance electronic hardwares ?If the government officials decided to publish it to public, these must be really one hell of interesting "electronic gadgets" tear-down ever made.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 02, 2013, 09:12:17 am
content: Quote from: BravoV on July 02, 2013, 08:40:24 amYes, they should expose them and hold the teardown photos and device up at the UN a.la the Cuban missiles."This chip has clearly been manufactured in the CIA's own Ft. Meade chip fab.Remove the US's permanent seat on the UN security council as a result.Unfortunately the bastards have veto power on any vote being in that position.Every country should now admit they have bugs inside the CIA and white house, and let the dicks go batshit crazy looking for them.

author: 4to20Milliamps
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2013, 11:52:34 am
content: Espionage??? In this day and age??? shocking.Something doesn't quite add up with all of this, to go jet setting around the globe costs money and this guy is no millionaire.Plus knowing how our government works we footed the bill for a trillion dollar high tech spy operation and got a few tape recorders and some garbled conversations about what's for lunch, if you haven't noticed our gvt. isn't exactly competent.

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2013, 11:57:34 am
content: Oh come on. Don't act so naive people.Every country that can, uses any technology it can, to spy on other countries any time it can.A quote fromCasablancacomes to mind -"I'm shock - shocked - that gambling is going on in here!"

author: WBB
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2013, 12:13:49 pm
content: Quote from: xrunner on July 02, 2013, 11:57:34 amThat about sums it up. I would be worried if theywere notspying...

author: casper.bang
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2013, 12:19:19 pm
content: I say, thank goodness for the folks like Snowden, Assange and Manning! Governments should not be able to hide ill intentions and wrongdoings, that's not in the spirit of modern democratic society, that's the spirit of a police state after receiving botox and makeup.Doubtful if anything is real news to intelligence agencies. However it remains entertaining, if for nothing else than the US of course being the most dangerous double-standard (disquised as "patriotic") government in the world (practitioning torture, not recognizing the Haag war-chrime tribunal, only government to ever throw a nuke at someone - twice). The double standard aspect in this case of course, is that while the US citizen is protected, all is fair game to foreigners.It's pretty clear to me now, what it actually is, security researchers stumble on when they occasionally catch glimpses of giant dormant BOTnets infiltrating network equiptment, printers etc.

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2013, 12:25:01 pm
content: LOL - this thread is going to blow up.Just watch.

author: PA0PBZ
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2013, 12:32:58 pm
content: Quote from: casper.bang on July 02, 2013, 12:19:19 pmIsn't that a good reason for spying?Oh wait, that's not what you mean...

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 02, 2013, 12:33:44 pm
content: Quote from: 4to20Milliamps on July 02, 2013, 11:52:34 amNot a huge amount, one way remember!Most people could find a few $K if the rest of their life depended on it. This guy had a well paying job I'm sure.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 02, 2013, 12:36:06 pm
content: Quote from: xrunner on July 02, 2013, 11:57:34 amSure, if it's a fair game signal. But it's not acceptable if it's true they are violating the sanctity of embassies etc.

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2013, 12:39:31 pm
content: Let me quote a former US president:Quote

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2013, 12:44:50 pm
content: Let me quote half the American public (you guess which half):Quote

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2013, 12:46:15 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on July 02, 2013, 12:36:06 pmLike I said - don't act so naive ...

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2013, 12:50:08 pm
content: Politicians and sanctity don't exactly go hand-in-hand, unless they're from the U.S. and it's the sanctity ofmarriage...

author: WBB
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2013, 12:54:09 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on July 02, 2013, 12:36:06 pmAny signal is fair game for "spying."

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 02, 2013, 01:23:21 pm
content: Since this is an International forum, I really have no interest in speaking about what I think about what the NSA or Snowden did directly. I don't think it's useful, and there's already starting to be a bit of USA hate that I don't want to feed. But what I want to do here is dispel the notion that the US is some kind of monolithic entity where all the people support everything their government does, you know, as Dave says "USA USA" and all that dreck.The USA has a minority of very vocal idiots. These are the people that speak on FOX News, the people that occupy the government in all levels, the people that you see picketing gay people with signs saying "God hates fags", etc. But these idiots vary by region, and they also don't speak for a large part of the country. They get elected to office through subterfuge, cheating, gerrymandering, and negative advertisements. Most Americans simply want to go about their lives in peace, and really don't care what their neighbors do or don't do. If you go through the US you'll see such a variety of people, some idiots, some assholes, and many who'll give you the shirt off their back, even if it means they'll walk around shirtless.So when it comes to the NSA, it speaks volumes that the NSA has done most of what it's doing in very closely guarded secrecy. They realize that if the extent of what they were doing were to come out (and I believe only a small part has so far) that it would wither in the light, and so far this is proving to be more correct than not. They see the American people as much the enemy as they do foreign government, and again, for good reason. We're not a stupid people. We're sometimes uneducated, uninformed, deliberately kept in the dark, but we're not stupid. And the government knows this. And because of that, they operate in secrecy. A secrecy which cannot continue forever and unabated.The American people are guilty of allowing their government to run without checks and balances. That's a problem, and that's our problem. But please don't extrapolate that to a malicious American people. Most of us just want to live our lives in peace, just like you.That's all I have to say for now. Well, and this: There are different regions to the US, all with generally different priorities. The West coast tends to be more liberal, along with the northeast. The midwest, great plains, and south tend to be more religious and stupid. I guess the point I'm trying to make with that is, we're not a monolithic people, we are a melting pot country with many different cultures and viewpoints all smushed together.

author: WBB
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2013, 01:43:57 pm
content: Quote from: duskglow on July 02, 2013, 01:23:21 pmNever dreamed we had the monopoly on that!

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 02, 2013, 01:46:05 pm
content: Not the monopoly, just a greater concentration. There are some nice people and stupid people everywhere.

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2013, 01:59:52 pm
content: Quote from: duskglow on July 02, 2013, 01:23:21 pmDon't let the relative liberalism where you live color your view too much. I promise you, Fox News is popular for a reason. The extremely vocal ones like the Westboro Baptist Church are few, but you don't have to go far to find people who think the only thing wrong with them is that they're a bit too loud about their views. Beliefs are sacred here, no matter how stupid they may be.That's not to say we're all like that either, but just because there are good apples in the barrel doesn't mean the bad ones aren't a problem that needs to be dealt with. No, I don't agree with broad, stereotyping USA hate, but the only way to make sure this shit recedes rather than becoming more popular is to make sure it doesn't become acceptable. Humans are complacent by nature and will perpetuate anything that doesn't earn rebukes.Most of us want to live our lives in peace, but that doesn't necessarily extend to interrupting our own peace to take time to help defend someone else's.

author: thefatmoop
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2013, 02:03:33 pm
content: Quote from: 4to20Milliamps on July 02, 2013, 11:52:34 amwhile working for a company under the NSA making around 200k$/yr and later taking a pay cut to work at a more favored company for 120k$/yr.I think he had a lot more money than you give him credit. The question is how much did he take with him since surely most his savings now belong to the us gov

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2013, 02:59:44 pm
content: duskglow, thanks for the lengthy explanation you've made there, really appreciate that.As the thread starter, all I want say is there are a lot of people I believe in this forum that are like me that do not hate American at all, but NOT for your government. Dave is one of them I believe.The main factor that is under the spot light here and also almost everywhere is the US Government's foreign policy. C'mon, its no brainer that for a decent educated human that is not American not tohatedislikewhat your gov have done so far, especially if their own country have been bullied by Uncle Sam either the harsh way or the more polite method.About the bashing on your gov, I guess you Americans will have to endure and live with that for quite some time especially in the international forums/arenas.

author: G7PSK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2013, 03:30:05 pm
content: After the successes of the WW2 code breaking at places like Bletchley park the allies came to an agreement on signals interception and intelligence sharing. GCHQ in the UK would look after europe the USA would look after the Americas and Australia would do the same for the far east and all would snoop on their relevant area of the USSR . The question is whats the fuck new here, many people here in the UK knew and know about GCHQ little games as a radio amateur I am well aware of the long periodical antennas dotted around the country as well as other things like the top floor of BT headquarters and it stood to reason that as soon as the internet arrived they would be looking at that as well. It could be said that any government that did not go in for intelligence collection was falling down on its duties. I have come up against this snooping directly myself, during the 1980's I was selling equipment to norther Ireland , I suddenly found that I had an unprecedented number of wrong numbers and cross connections on my phone line all from Ulster, there was obviously faults with the telephone monitoring system at BT. i had a bit of fun with this when I realised what was going on, I would make calls to random numbers and just say something silly like " the vicar flies at dawn" or tag such a message onto the end of a conversation with my contacts in Norther Ireland, I expect that some one somewhere is still trying to crack the code. After all you have to make the spooks earn their wages.

author: rolycat
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2013, 04:05:23 pm
content: Quote from: c4757p on July 02, 2013, 12:50:08 pmOn the other hand politicians and sanctimony go together like flies and manure...

author: Shenandoah
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2013, 04:19:08 pm
content: Quote from: c4757p on July 02, 2013, 12:44:50 pmWhat about the genitals? still nothing to hide?

author: thefatmoop
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2013, 04:26:33 pm
content: Quote from: Shenandoah on July 02, 2013, 04:19:08 pmlow blow troll bro

author: Shenandoah
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2013, 04:38:16 pm
content: Quote from: thefatmoop on July 02, 2013, 04:26:33 pmOh I see your are of that type "I've got nothing to hide..." so go hide in your worship place.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 02, 2013, 04:43:49 pm
content: Shenendoah, you are typifying the quote: It is better to close your mouth and be thought a fool, than to open it and remove all doubt.

author: cthree
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2013, 04:46:48 pm
content: I'm surprised that anyone is surprised by any of this. I've known since forever that as soon as a packet leaves my house it traverses "the Internet" before it get to where it is going. I think all this shock and horror is just a little more than disingenuous, especially when it comes from people who make their livings building and using the very things they claim to be totally ignorant of and disgusted by.GPS tracking your location from your phone? Checked into 4square lately? Tagged a photo of a friend and uploaded it to facebook with the EXIF metadata attached? Used the face recognition software in iPhoto?It seems the most vocal opposition comes from the biggest hypocrites. Knock off the "I want my privacy" bullshit! No you don't. You want just the opposite. The last thing these idiots want is privacy which is why they posts a running play-by-paly narration of every god-dammed thing they eat for lunch, what it looked like, when they ate it, who they were with, where they are going next and details of every stop they make along the way. The only thing missing is the time and location and a photograph of lunch on the way out.People are attention whores and this is a society which rewards those who attract the most of it. "Eyeballs" is the currency of social and economic power in the age of the Internet. Being private is being nobody. The furor over nothing is just an attempt to get even more attention and by all accounts it's working.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 02, 2013, 04:48:29 pm
content: Quote from: cthree on July 02, 2013, 04:46:48 pmObviously you're not on G+. Foodporn is a genre.

author: thefatmoop
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2013, 05:05:39 pm
content: whohohoho stop the car, we've got an emergency can't you see? You want to know why we stopped the car? guessstatement from snowdenhttp://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/07/02/statement-from-edward-snowden/And what's with the reporters the Good ol gov is going after who report on the leaked documents? Freedeom of the press out the window too?

author: rolycat
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2013, 05:11:56 pm
content: Quote from: duskglow on July 02, 2013, 04:48:29 pmAre you sure you read cthree's post right? Getting excited about pictures of food on the way out isn't foodporn, its coprophilia. Yeurrghh.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 02, 2013, 05:13:08 pm
content: Oh, "on the way out". Missed that part. I need to stop commenting right after I wake up.

author: G7PSK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2013, 05:27:47 pm
content: I presume you all fill in you tax returns and census forms went through school and college. Well the government know how much you earn how old you are where you were born what grades you made etc in fine detail. Unless they have more spooks than citizens they will not be able to read all your emails and listen to your phone calls, all they do is look for patterns in the information that attracts attention due to indications of some unlawful activity. at one time here in the UK every community had its local bobby (policeman) they knew what every one was doing and when and if you were a kid up to no good he would give you a clip around the ear. Keeping tabs is not new and will continue. Governments also collect information on all foreign powers friendly or otherwise in order to get a better idea of what their intentions are very useful in negotiations. I cannot see that Snowden is worth all the effort that the US is going to as what he says is not really news to those in the know and should come as no surprise to any one else.

author: AlfBaz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2013, 05:38:44 pm
content: Quote from: cthree on July 02, 2013, 04:46:48 pmI think this whole "look at me!!" generation of people is pathetic, to say the least but at the end of the day it's their choice. Just because a select few decide to publish their every move, doesn't mean it's a green light for authorities to disrespect and/or invade the privacy of all.With regards to the ease with witch we can be tracked due to technological advances, this is just no argument. I have windows in my house that are see through, and I don't hide my traveling habits. This doesn't mean I will condone somebody standing on the street leering into my house or following me around.I constantly see in these arguments people saying that they don't care about their privacy, but sorry, this is utter bullshit. At some point everyone wants a little privacy for whatever reason and if we tolerate a little today, bit by bit we wont have noticed every single minute action and detail of our lives will be chronicled in some government database... If that's not the case alreadyhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utah_Data_Center

author: rolycat
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2013, 05:48:20 pm
content: Quote from: G7PSK on July 02, 2013, 05:27:47 pmIt's no surprise to anyone with half a brain that the U.S. and British governments get up to this sort of thing, but unless people like Snowden make them public those in power can always claim that it's all just conspiracy theories.What rights we have left are being eroded daily in the name of 'security', and just because loss of privacy is inevitable doesn't mean one shouldn't try to mitigate the worst abuses.The problem is that if you reveal enough to convince the doubters there is going to be collateral damage, and the citizens of the offending countries end up suffering the consequences rather than just their governments.

author: jantb
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: July 02, 2013, 07:13:04 pm
content: HiIn a holy war there is nothing holy,not even the principels supposed to be defended.Reading some of the posts.Nothing new under the sun,still the same Double standard,political-religious paranoia...etc.This song keept popping up in my head while reading this.Law and order.Saw your face on TVYou say "It's all right, have no fear;I am here"Panic's endedYour rights defendedFrom those who triedTo tell you about the other sideOf life, the strife that's going onGo to sleep nowCount the sheep nowWith us the dream will never endIt's easy to take what you are toldThey said we need law and orderBut now all our lives are bought and soldAnd just for some law and orderNow your days grow colderThe plans they've got for you are clearSo clearYou're not so sureYou want that cureAnd those who triedTo tell you about the shit that's going downare found out on the moorBut just don't ask howCurfew starts nowGet off the streets and bolt the doorWe'll get away from here one dayI'll take you across the borderThere's got to be somewhere we can stayWhere they don't need law and orderIt's easy to take what you are toldThey said we need law and orderBut now all your lives are bought and soldAnd just for some law and orderWe'll get away from here one dayI'll take you across the borderThere's got to be somewhere we can stayWhere they don't need law and orderWilliam Alan Macdonald Maccormick, Phil Manzanera (1977)

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2013, 07:17:24 pm
content: Quote from: Shenandoah on July 02, 2013, 04:19:08 pmMany Americans are quite unafraid to put them on show:As usual, the dick's in front.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2013, 07:30:49 pm
content: Nothing to hide answer. Have you ever bought cigarettes for yourself or anybody and paid with a card, or used a store card? Have you done the same for alcohol? Have you done the same with fast food? You will in future have your healthcare denied because they will say it is self inflicted by your lifestyle.Remember it is not the current guys you need worry about but those who come in the future, having all the data there is going to mean it will be used. The biggest user of snooping powers in the UK is local councils looking to swat old ladies who let the dog out and it poops in the street.

author: ftransform
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2013, 07:49:00 pm
content: All those people are way too busy masturbating to face book private pictures to do anything useful with the data.The government is in fact employing people to masturbate.In my opinion they should chemically castrate everyone who works in the intelligence services.

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2013, 07:49:46 pm
content: Wait, really? Where do I send my bill?

author: ftransform
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2013, 07:53:27 pm
content: Quote from: c4757p on July 02, 2013, 07:49:46 pmIn order to find the data centers you must only track the large shipments of kleenex and personal lubricant.They probably have little taps on their desks filled with lube, kind of like soap dispensers. It might be even connected to some kind of building hydraulic system.

author: Stonent
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2013, 08:08:37 pm
content: Quote from: xrunner on July 02, 2013, 11:57:34 amYour quote reminded me of the scene in Men in Black where they go to the pawn shop to find the guy who was selling the alien guns. "Oh I was just about to turn those in"That and this

author: gregariz
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2013, 08:09:35 pm
content: Quote from: ftransform on July 02, 2013, 07:49:00 pmConsidering the state of western electronics.. its highly likely that some of these forum members have worked for GCHQ / NSA and various like agencies. It is possible they are no longer quite normal. Radomes on top of prying satellite dishes are not there for the weather.

author: Stonent
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2013, 08:12:16 pm
content: Quote from: madires on July 02, 2013, 12:39:31 pmDoh!

author: ftransform
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2013, 08:17:02 pm
content: Quote from: gregariz on July 02, 2013, 08:09:35 pmWell you are not normal to begin with if you seek employment by them. I feel that working for the local mafia family is overall more honest.I guess their both pretty bad but hey, I'd rather support small business.When is the last time the CIA threw you a block party or gave out thanksgiving turkeys?

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2013, 08:18:58 pm
content: Yes, but the NSA hasKool-Aid! The mafia doesn't have that, do they? Kool-Aid is good...

author: ftransform
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2013, 08:21:05 pm
content: Quote from: c4757p on July 02, 2013, 08:18:58 pmAt least the mafia does not sell drugs to kids.actually who am i kidding, they both do.their the same thing!

author: Stonent
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2013, 08:25:33 pm
content: I'll throw a little gasoline into the conversation...If we remove right/left politics we have thisPresident Obama campaigned on reversing Bush era things like the patriot act, guantanamo bay, bringing an immediate end to Iraq, and regaining world trust of the US.And what do we have now?Accusations of the IRS being used for spying on political opponents, guantanamo bay still going strong, we still have people in Iraq and unmanned drone strikes have quadrupled.Nixon spied on a few hotel rooms and was basically fired. Our current government is spying on millions of people and the people who voted for them are silent.Ralph Nader well known (in the US) for exposing how unsafe cars were in the 60s and 70s, green party presidential candidate (too many times to count) claims President Obama is a worse "war criminal" than Bush."Change" isn't quite the word.Senators and Congressmen get paid somewhere between 150 and 200k a year, but none leave politics without being multimillionaires. Legally they can invest in companies that they have oversight on regarding mergers. So they could buy a few million in stock and approve a merger and double their investment.Perhaps in 2016 we'll get a real change away from business as usual politicians and fire as many people as we can.

author: ftransform
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2013, 08:28:04 pm
content: An the rise of hits has increased too. They used to call out a few hits, on communist leaders in african countries, now their doing a few hits a day with drones, on camels

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 02, 2013, 08:29:03 pm
content: Part of the problem is that we keep getting absolutely horrible choices for President. I kind of held my nose when I voted for Obama (yes, I did). But that's because I felt that between him and McCain, or him and Romney, he was the better choice. That was also damning with faint praise. I would have rather had a Huntsman or even a Feingold. But that's our political system in a nutshell. We get the choices they want us to have, and none of them are any good. I *still* think Obama was the better choice, even though I am absolutely not a fan of many of the things he's done.I'm dreading the next election, because I do not want to see what the GOP throws at us. It will probably be indistinguishable from something brown and sticky. The problem with that is that all the democratic party will have to do is throw us a warm body that isn't brown and sticky, and people will vote for him or her in droves. And we'll probably get another Obama.Sigh.

author: Stonent
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2013, 08:34:17 pm
content: Quote from: duskglow on July 02, 2013, 08:29:03 pmI think the republicans would be crazy to get behind anyone other than Rand Paul.As far as the democrats... It seems abundantly clear that nobody wants Joe Biden, and Hillary seems to be their top choice. I'm surprised that after Benghazi anyone dares speak her name.I think Rand Paul is one of the only politicians that hasn't called for Snowden's head on a block.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 02, 2013, 08:36:37 pm
content: The Republicans are rather crazy. They keep doubling down on things that simply aren't working. I don't think we're going to get Rand Paul, I bet it'll be someone like Rick Perry. Or, God forbid, Sarah Palin.And he will get trounced.

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2013, 08:44:26 pm
content: Quote from: duskglow on July 02, 2013, 08:36:37 pmI'd state that the other way around. Sarah Palin, as far as I can tell, is just daffy. Rick Perry may or may not be actually malicious...

author: ftransform
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2013, 08:46:09 pm
content: I want president GWB for four more years.

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2013, 08:47:36 pm
content: Once Texas secedes, you can have him.

author: CodyShaw
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2013, 08:49:04 pm
content: As a Canadian:I am sorry for our neighbors. I hope we aren't doing similar things... But you never know.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 02, 2013, 08:49:27 pm
content: I want President GWB for -8 years.

author: gregariz
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2013, 09:05:20 pm
content: Quote from: Stonent on July 02, 2013, 08:34:17 pmOn behalf of all Australia... I apologize to the world for Rupert and Fox.

author: MacAttak
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 02, 2013, 09:40:59 pm
content: It's just a matter of time before someone invokes Godwin's Law in this thread.I can sense it coming.

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2013, 09:49:25 pm
content: Pretty soon the thread Nazis are gonna shut this down.

author: 4to20Milliamps
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2013, 10:15:41 pm
content: Here's a bug sniffing circuit I found on the internet in 2 seconds using google, if any foreign governments are interested I could probably reproduce it for about $200,000.00 per unit (gold only please)All proceeds will go to plane tickets so I can see the world.

author: rolycat
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2013, 10:32:32 pm
content: Who needs a bug sniffing circuit when you can have a circuit with its own bug:Once the cyborg roaches have evolved through a few more generations, I, for one, will welcome our new insect overlords.

author: 4to20Milliamps
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2013, 10:58:13 pm
content: U.S. government controlled spy cockroaches.If I do find any bugs with that circuit I'm going to have some fun with them, they're gonna see some things and hear some sounds no human should ever have to see or hear, then I'm going to stick it in a lawn gnome and send it on a plane all over the world and use their bug to track it to see where it's been.

author: lemmegraphdat
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2013, 11:02:31 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on July 02, 2013, 09:12:17 amEverybody knows that everybody spies. This kid ruined his life for nothing. As for the UN, the thing is useless to us accept for the information that we can steal, pay for or extort from the other thieves. If all of that means being a dick then I hope we have the biggest dicks in the world.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 02, 2013, 11:22:00 pm
content: Quote from: xrunner on July 02, 2013, 12:46:15 pmWhether or not it is actually actually happening, and whether or not it is the right, are two entirely different thing.

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2013, 11:24:38 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on July 02, 2013, 11:22:00 pmWe know the U.S. does these things. I know you are just shocked as Hell right?So Dave, can you assure us that the Australian government does not spy on other governments or other embassies?

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 02, 2013, 11:29:28 pm
content: Quote from: xrunner on July 02, 2013, 11:24:38 pmNo, not shocked. But my position remains unchanged that it is wrong, very wrong.QuoteActual bugs inside embassies, I greatly doubt it.We don't have the pananoia, 1/100th the money, 1/100th the manpower, nor our own chip fab that the NSA have.

author: gregariz
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2013, 11:31:53 pm
content: Quote from: xrunner on July 02, 2013, 11:24:38 pmI would imagine that these agencies in places like US/Aus/UK have the hardware in place to monitor all internet traffic going in and out of their countries as well as the ability to listen to whatever phone traffic is occuring over the domestic networks, landline or cell.They all claim that they don't listen to their own citizens but I imagine that depends on how big of a nuisance you make of yourself. Personally I think they are probably too busy listening in to executives in foreign big business and banks and passing that info on to whichever bank needs a leg up in the game. That... and maybe the odd terrorists cell phone in a cave somewhere.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 02, 2013, 11:38:05 pm
content: Quote from: duskglow on July 02, 2013, 08:29:03 pmPerhaps the problem isn't your president, but the fact that 99% of your Congress get reelected time and time again, forever it seems.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_members_of_the_United_States_Congress_by_longevity_of_service

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 02, 2013, 11:40:08 pm
content: Quote from: gregariz on July 02, 2013, 11:31:53 pmNo, most do not. It requires a LOT of money to do such things.Many countries simply have agreements to access US resources. e.g. We let the yanks put Pine Gap in Australia, and they let us access the data.Let's look at the Oz equivalent to the NSA, ASIO.$409M budget, 1760 employees.Lets assume the average wage is $80K, that's $140M just on wages. Double that for all the other running expenses. Let's round to $250M operational costs a year. That leaves $150M a year for toys and upgrades like the new $700M building.Actually, based on the 11-12 report the budget was only $328M, but another $50M was "equity injections"

author: dr.diesel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2013, 11:43:56 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on July 02, 2013, 11:38:05 pmCareer politicians are indeed a huge problem in the states.

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2013, 11:48:32 pm
content: Quote from: gregariz on July 02, 2013, 11:31:53 pmOh dear - but that would bewrong, and we allknowthe U.S. is theonlycountry that does these wrong things, such as spying on other embassies and countries.If you believe that then enjoy your delusional dream world.

author: gregariz
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2013, 12:09:31 am
content: Quote from: xrunner on July 02, 2013, 11:48:32 pmyes.. best just not to make a nuisance of ourselveshttp://www.theage.com.au/it-pro/security-it/living-in-a-state-of-surveillance-20130612-2o4au.html

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2013, 12:18:26 am
content: Quote from: gregariz on July 03, 2013, 12:09:31 amFrom that story -QuoteTheAustralian Secret Intelligence Service? What? Say it ain't so!They must be nicer than their U.S. counterparts, because I'm sure they would NEVER do anything "wrong".

author: warp_foo
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 03, 2013, 12:45:42 am
content: Quote from: duskglow on July 02, 2013, 01:23:21 pmWow... Prejudice much?

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 03, 2013, 12:56:00 am
content: Quote from: duskglow on July 02, 2013, 01:23:21 pmI hope you don't think I actually believe that?Because you'd be massively wrong.Only a fool would think that the government is representative of the people's voice, in any country. That's how the system is supposed to work of course, but it seldom does.Money and power corrupts completely. And when you have systems that involve political "donations" and lifetime pensions on offer, the system will never work as it's supposed to.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 03, 2013, 12:58:35 am
content: Quote from: warp_foo on July 03, 2013, 12:45:42 amI come from the midwest, was born and raised there. There are some very nice people there - and some complete idiots. And I've run into a lot fewer of those kinds of idiots since I moved to the west coast.

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2013, 01:07:16 am
content: Proof that French and Portuguese authorities must be wagging their tails when receiving the call from Washington.Source ->French and Portuguese Govs are Uncle Sam's favorite puppiesThe Bolivian's President has my sympathy.

author: MikeK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2013, 01:43:14 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on July 02, 2013, 11:38:05 pmAt the root of the problem is that government works for those who participate, and lower and middle class people have poor participation. Rich people have a high rate of voting...AND have lobbies, via corporations. And those corporations have drastically changed society. Simply replacing Congress won't solve anything. There are fundamental, systemic issues that aren't getting addressed.

author: Stonent
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2013, 01:58:23 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on July 02, 2013, 11:38:05 pm

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 03, 2013, 02:00:51 am
content: Quote from: MikeK on July 03, 2013, 01:43:14 amYeah, but surely it's a first step?You usually can't get the holy grail of changes all at once. i.e. A black female lesbian atheist non-war mongering un-corruptible president who hates guns, nukes, and political influence. And a congress who don't accept donations, have no vested interests, only have the interests of the people at heart, and are in grave fear of losing their job at every election term.

author: Stonent
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2013, 02:03:22 am
content: Quote from: dr.diesel on July 02, 2013, 11:43:56 pmI heard an idea once where someone said that the wages of the Congress and Senate should be the same as the average US worker wage or at least directly tied to the economy.Plus if you work 1 day in Congress and get fired, you still get a pension and free healthcare. One guy at work said his goal in life is to get fired from Congress so he'll never have to work again.

author: Stonent
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2013, 02:11:29 am
content: Quote from: MikeK on July 03, 2013, 01:43:14 amYeah, I always make it a point to vote in presidential elections, but I never seem to get around to voting outside of that.So with that I guess I'd say that as an elected official, you're most vulnerable during a presidential election year.And if you look at local elections, you get all these positions like "State Railroad Commissioner" and such where you basically couldn't give a rats ass about.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 03, 2013, 02:17:08 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on July 03, 2013, 12:56:00 amI don't. But I do glean a little bit about how you view the US from your reaction on receiving a package from the US. I'm just making the point that the vast majority of us wouldn't be caught dead saying "USA! USA", or wearing american flag ANYTHING, hell, a large fraction of us don't even speak with a southern accent (which is the accent that you affect). I'm just saying, for those who may not be aware of it because this is an international forum, that the US is much more varied and diverse than our media and the highly vocal idiots who can't seem to shut their mouths make us appear to be.The very vocal idiots out there make the sane Americans acutely embarrassed. Just like Rupert Murdoch seems to embarrass Australians.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 03, 2013, 02:21:59 am
content: Quote from: Stonent on July 03, 2013, 02:11:29 amThe last time I voted, I made it a point to research every single candidate - including local school board, etc. I made some surprising choices that rarely had anything to do with the two major parties. I even voted for Gary Johnson for prez the second time (Obama the first time). I live in Oregon, which is such a safe state for Obama I felt safe branching out a bit, knowing he'd get elected anyway. (I may have said I voted for him against Romney, I forgot about this until I wrote this).And I found a couple of people, once I looked up their views, I said "no way no how am I ever voting for this person". So the research was well spent.Oregon has vote by mail, so I have more time to do research here.

author: Stonent
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2013, 02:28:32 am
content: Quote from: duskglow on July 03, 2013, 02:21:59 amYeah last election I found there were a lot of Libertarian's on the ticket for city positions and yeah I sort of felt bad not having realized they were running and not thinking to do a little more research.

author: MikeK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2013, 02:51:34 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on July 03, 2013, 02:00:51 amI dunno. Key reforms have a way of getting undone. And are being undone. A good example is the Fairness Doctrine. A crucial piece of legislation that said that anything controversial being discussed (on TV, radio) had to have opposing points of view. Being able to discuss things is vital to democracy. But it's gone. Completely gone, in fact. Not only was it undone, but the actual wording has been removed from the FCC books...like it never happened.We've had periods where we didn't have total douchebags running the show. Hell, we've had f*cking high top tax rates (a.k.a. proper tax rates) under a REPUBLICAN president.But it gets undone.A lot of people seem to want to pull the voting lever and think their work is over. I suspect we won't get any meaningful change until things get worse...so that pressure is put on people to DEMAND the things they really should already be getting.Getting altruistic members in Congress seems like a crap shoot to me. Elections are almost exclusively won by the people spending the most money on their campaigns. So how do we elect people who don't take donations if the elections require people who DO take donations?

author: cthree
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2013, 04:54:42 am
content: Quote from: AlfBaz on July 02, 2013, 05:38:44 pmDude, seriously, look at you right now. Do you have any idea how much data you are "leaking" right now as you read this post? I'm not talking about looking in your windows, I'm talking about the trail you are leaving with every packet that leaves your house, every ping your phone broadcasts every minute of every day. You think you have some say over where that data goes or who sees it or who logs it when it hits your router and enters this amorphous thing called the Internet?Get real. You send a packet to a dns server to resolvewww.eevblog.comand it sends it back. How did it get there and who might have logged it? You have no freaking idea and its quite none of your concern. That's how the Internet works. It's a public network. The same goes for your cell phone. You don't own the cell network. When a packet leaves your phone's radio you give it to the phone company to deliver. They guarantee by law not to share the content of that packet, that's the extent of your privacy. The the record of the packets existence, where it came from and where it went belongs to the phone company, its their network. They generated that data, it belongs to them.The fact you loaded this page and when and who else loaded it and when and from where is not information you own. It can be easily inferred without looking at a single byte of the content. They don't care what this topic is about, only that a packet from your IP has some relation and came in close contact with packets from me and everyone else who visited this page, and this site.You know all of this stuff it logged in vast quantities yet you seem to think there is some kind of firewall that some people can't see through? How naive.

author: cthree
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2013, 04:59:55 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on July 02, 2013, 11:29:28 pmDave all you are saying is that they would if they could but they can't so they don't. That's an odd moral position to take. Given half a chance, Aussie spooks would have a bug on Air Force One or the Oval Office in a heartbeat. Not stealing something because you can't get away with it isn't the same as not stealing because its wrong.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 03, 2013, 05:10:16 am
content: Quote from: MikeK on July 03, 2013, 02:51:34 amSimple, you vote for the person that doesn't take the money. They are not forced the take it. And youcanwin without taking it.The only reason the incumbent gets back in all the time is because the majority of people are sheep.Do you think the people are going to force the congress to pass laws to fix this if they can't stop being sheep to begin with?I live in the "bible belt" here in Sydney, and the Liberal partyalwayswins that seat, it's depressing.

author: cthree
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2013, 05:14:36 am
content: What does everyone think the NSA built this in Yorkshire for? Weather and traffic on the 10s?

author: Stonent
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2013, 05:21:44 am
content: Quote from: MikeK on July 03, 2013, 02:51:34 amAs far as the fairness doctrine goes, left of center radio doesn't seem to flourish in the US without government funding, they just can't seem to make money, but they do a lot better on television.So basically that's why other than government funded PBS and NPR, talk radio is pretty much conservative.

author: Stonent
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2013, 05:22:32 am
content: Quote from: cthree on July 03, 2013, 05:14:36 amPaul Bunyan's mini-golf?

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2013, 05:25:01 am
content: Looks to me like a giant lost a few golf balls. See a beanstalk nearby?Goddammit, Stonent...

author: Stonent
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2013, 05:28:40 am
content: Quote from: c4757p on July 03, 2013, 05:25:01 amWarning: Other posts have been made, please review them before making your post

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2013, 05:30:42 am
content: Yeah, I know. You type faster than me! And you're funnier!

author: AlfBaz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2013, 05:42:28 am
content: Quote from: cthree on July 03, 2013, 04:54:42 amI fail to see what you are advocating here.Tracing someone's actions is almost trivial. I think I made that clear so I don't understand where you are seeing my naivety.What I am opposed to is collating all if this information into one file in a single database, searchable by name. If this is done openly by a government (as opposed to it being done secretly, which it probably is) then they are basically laying down the ground work for long term community acceptance of this practice, where as their actions, which should be completely transparent are being hidden more and more from the public. Isn't this a worse form of totalitarianism than the despised communist form of governance?If you are comfortable with this then fine. I and many others are not. If you are so adamant that advocating for privacy is a futile and naïve then perhaps you can explain why you are logged in to this forum under a pseudonym?

author: gregariz
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2013, 05:50:05 am
content: Quote from: cthree on July 03, 2013, 05:14:36 amHa!..it looks like there are a few dotted around the placehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ECHELON

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2013, 11:20:11 am
content: Quote from: gregariz on July 03, 2013, 05:50:05 amThere was also one over here in Bad Aibling (closed around 2004). But they built a smaller one in the near of Darmstadt. Since there's some satellite business already it's less obvious :-)

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2013, 01:58:32 pm
content: Quote from: cthree on July 03, 2013, 04:59:55 amOf course they would. Of course they would. Anyone who thinks otherwise is extremely naive about this whole area.If anyone asked an Australian Secret Intelligence Service public relations officer (if they had one) whether they thought bugging embassies was wrong, they'd probably tell you sure, it's wrong {wink wink nudge nudge}. All the while thinking to themselves - "Damn, I wish we had some of those NSA assetts to tinker with, we could bug the Living Crap out of embassies with that shit!"

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2013, 06:40:15 pm
content: Salright, they bugged the Sa embassies, and probably got a lot of good hints for wives, poor choices in girlfriends and a lot of requests for home treats to come in. That and a few choice nuggets as well.

author: Stonent
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2013, 08:16:08 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on July 03, 2013, 05:10:16 am

author: MacAttak
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 04, 2013, 12:36:01 am
content: Quote from: warp_foo on July 03, 2013, 12:45:42 amIt's not actually prejudice. Although I wouldn't have used the polarizing word "stupid".It's pretty well-documented thatin generalthe midwest, plains, and especially the deep south have higher percentages of religious fundamentalists, higher illiteracy rates, higher teen pregnancy rates, lower average household income, higher unemployment rates, and more widespread persistent poverty. These things also occur in other places (like Detroit), but not as consistently as in those mentioned parts of the country.In fact, these are all some of the top reasons why the past century has seen an exodus from small communities of the "heartland" and the "southern bible belt" into the large cities of the western and eastern coasts. There are always exceptions - Dallas for example - but generally speaking populations have been shifting for a very long time from rural to higher-density urban areas.You need to look no further than the red vs blue voter maps that rarely change from election to election. The two coastlines are mostly blue, with a wide swath of red between them.

author: MikeK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2013, 12:51:56 am
content: Quote from: Stonent on July 03, 2013, 08:16:08 pmI'm not sure what that picture means, but keep in mind that "liberal" in Australia and "liberal" in America aren't the same thing. The Liberal party in Australia is akin to American conservatism.

author: MikeK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2013, 12:57:43 am
content: Quote from: Stonent on July 03, 2013, 05:21:44 amWithout government funding there would be no public roads, no public libraries, no public parks, no public education, no public disease prevention like the fact that we've destroyed smallpox and polio and a bunch of other stuff. And without government funding the elderly and the disabled would go back to being the worst treated segments of the population. Democracy is not a monkey making venture.Talk radio is conservative because a) the Fairness doctrine was removed with pretty much prevented conservative blowholes from going on and on and b) limits of media ownership were relaxed to the point of removal.

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2013, 12:59:09 am
content: Quote from: MikeK on July 04, 2013, 12:51:56 amAh OK, that had me confused until you posted that.

author: Stonent
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2013, 12:59:50 am
content: Quote from: MikeK on July 04, 2013, 12:51:56 amYeah I know. That was a picture of John Howard the former Liberal PM.Just a little taunting

author: Stonent
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2013, 01:21:05 am
content: Quote from: MikeK on July 04, 2013, 12:57:43 amWell I'm not against ALL government funding.I just always saw the fairness doctrine as a sort of government regulation of the media. For example Air America was a left leaning radio network that was not publically funded and it ran for a few years but never made any money.Current TV was supposed to be a left leaning network and it didn't seem to have a whole lot of followers and eventually got sold to Al Jazeera.FNC seems to be fairly consistent in getting the viewership of MSNBC and CNN combined.So that tells me:American Conservatives are more likely to listen to Talk Radio and American Liberals.American Liberals prefer to get their news from non-commercial radio or from the TV or other sources.If we assume that Fox represents the people who lean right and MSNBC and CNN represent people who lean left, then really that means that MSNBC and CNN are competing more with each other than Fox. For the sake of simplification we'll assume the people who lean center just spread out evenly.For me, I haven't had cable in forever, but really tend more towards CNN and MSNBC's websites, not so much for the content but I've just never really liked the layout of FoxNews' site.

author: staxquad
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2013, 01:45:29 am
content: USA = 1984²

author: MikeK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2013, 01:54:43 am
content: Quote from: staxquad on July 04, 2013, 01:45:29 amYeah, it does really concern me. And to bring it back around to the original topic...I'm seriously concerned how Snowden and other whistleblowers are targeted.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 04, 2013, 01:56:51 am
content: Quote from: MikeK on July 04, 2013, 12:51:56 amYes indeed.And unless a miracle happens at the federal election in a few months, the current head of the Liberal party will be our new PM.It will be our own George W. Bush era

author: Stonent
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2013, 02:08:51 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on July 04, 2013, 01:56:51 amI watched most of the video and was trying to figure out if you meant more about his manner of speech or what he was saying.The video did seem to try to highlight him stumbling.And by not being as familiar with the current relationship between "white" Australians and the aboriginal people I wasn't sure if that was a sore subject in general and maybe his speaking of it was not with the delicacy that normally required. ?

author: shadowless
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2013, 02:09:20 am
content: Do a search onPine Gapand see what comes up

author: MikeK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2013, 02:13:47 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on July 04, 2013, 01:56:51 amDid you see the top comment? Juilia Gillard (if that really is her) says "FUCK YOU TONY". I love it!

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2013, 02:17:46 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on July 04, 2013, 01:56:51 amYou have my deepest sympathies.

author: Stonent
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2013, 02:28:06 am
content: Quote from: MikeK on July 04, 2013, 02:13:47 amI guess she finished her knitting?

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 04, 2013, 02:30:30 am
content: Quote from: Stonent on July 04, 2013, 02:08:51 amBoth, but mostly it's what he says. The guy is a complete moron, and is not fit to run a chook raffle, let alone our country.

author: AlfBaz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2013, 02:35:09 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on July 04, 2013, 02:30:30 amI'm at a loss as to why the libs chose this dickhead over Malcolm Turnbull

author: ampdoctor
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2013, 02:39:41 am
content: Quote from: MikeK on July 04, 2013, 12:57:43 amSo, where exactly does the government get the money for all these public projects? Contrary to what occasionally seems to be popular belief it doesn't come out of thin air. They borrow the money from the Fed, and then have to pay it back with our tax dollars plus interest. While I'm not averse to a certain amount of govt spending on the general welfare, the spending has become ridiculously out of control in this country.Add to the fact that the govt programs you cited are the most broken and poorly managed on the face of the planet. On average, the elderly are NOT any better off than 100 years ago, unless they managed to spool away about a million dollars so they can live just comfortably above the poverty line. Our public school system is the laughing stock of the western world, our bridges and infrastructure are falling into ruin from one end of this nation to the other, our taxes continue to increase and the quality of services from those taxes are decreasing.What is often proposed by those leaning heavily to the left is a system of borderline socialism with a dash of fascism thrown in for good measure. This country was not designed nor ever intended to be socialistic OR democratic. It's supposed to be a free market business based society with a government functioning as a republic. To quote Margaret Thatcher; "the problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other peoples money!" In other words, if you continue to stick it to the 'rich guys', eventually there's no incentive for people do a damn thing except sit on their duffs while sucking on the government teat. If that's not a recipe for disaster I don't know what is.With regard to the title of this thread, Edward Snowden is not a traitor, nor is he guilty of committing espionage. If anybody is even half way awake, they'd have known this was going on for years and probably decades. Also everything he's told us has been previously reported for several years in the mainstream media minus the word PRISM. About the only thing he could be guilty of is theft of classified government property. And while the world is busy hopping up and down like a bunch of chickens over the NSA leaks, the US military is prepping to invade Syria. They've got troops in Jordan performing drills, they're supplying the rebels with weapons, Russia has pulled every citizen with a pulse out of that country. Give you one guess what's gonna happen real soon?! I hope I'm wrong but it doesn't take a genius to see the writing on the wall.

author: Stonent
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2013, 02:44:13 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on July 04, 2013, 02:30:30 amSo is there anything like the American Libertarian party in Australia?Sort of like smaller federal government, less personal intrusion, less government intervention internationally, and less spending?

author: staxquad
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2013, 03:20:42 am
content: BREAKING NEWS:Air Force One was forced to land in Norway today as it was believed the International mass murderer Barack Hussein Obama was on board. Stay tuned for updates.

author: SgtRock
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 04, 2013, 03:27:30 am
content: Greetings EEVBees:--When I was in the USAF Security Service (now the Electronic Security Command) as a Russian Linguist, and Voice Intercept Processing Specialist, I worked at Tuslog 3-2. Tuslog stands for Turkish Logistics. Attached below is a picture of my base atop a mountain in Samsun Turkey, and a picture of my unit's patch, showing the shield of USAFSS (yousofis). While I cannot comment on the exact nature of my logistical duties there, I will allow you to speculate. After Turkey I worked at the Puzzle Palace at Ft. Meade MD.--NSA and its cousins (US UK CA AU NZ) vacuum up and store all (and I do mean all) communications, of which only a minuscule portion is ever reviewed or given further attention. One case where this happened is the Venona intercepts, which succeeded in proving that the FDR administration was riddled with Soviet Spies. The chief purpose of this activity, these days is to prevent the importation of nuclear and biological weapons. They are not interested in crime per se, but only if it has serious threat nexus, and they have told the CIA, FBI, DEA and the President to piss up a rope more that once. So far the Presidents have kept their hands out of the political cookie jar. The minute the President tries to use Signals Intelligence to gain access to the communications of political enemies, there will be a true blood and guts civil war at the top of the pyramid, which is as it should be.--Some folks who conclude that spying is just "wrong wrong wrong" and are "shocked shocked shocked" on this Blog appear to have the same opinion as did Henry L. Stimson when he closed down the Black Chamber (forerunner of NSA) in 1929, saying "Gentlemen do not read others mail". Lucky for us he had changed his mind by the time of the Pear Harbor attack, and allowed the US ASA (Army Security Agency), aided by Alan Turing and the Boys and Girls of Bletchley park to win the war, and invent the computer along the way. When, somehow, Eleanor Roosevelt got word that ASA was also targeting Uncle Joe, she insisted that we must stop spying on our good friends at once. Mrs. Roosevelt was politely told to piss up a rope.--As for spying on the Embassies, does anybody really think, any Russian or American ever told a "walk-in" foreign code clerk or General Staff worker from an opposing nuclear armed nation, "No thanks, Gentlemen do not read others mail" If you want to find spies just check out some of the folks at the embassies, that is one place where you are guaranteed to find some. Yes, I know wrong, wrong, wrong, shocked, shocked, shocked. It is a sad sad thing, next thing you know they will be giving soldiers, and cops weapons and teaching the how to use them. Get Real!As for Diplomatic Communications, since the inception of the RSA encryption protocols, which were originally developed by a Bletchley Boffin, diplomatic cables emails and telephony have been locked up tighter than Dick's Hatband, and are only subject to traffic analysis, if that. So no worries there, unless you are stupid enough to hire Bradley Manning and give him access to the precripts (plain text), which only the US has been stupid enough to do, so far.--It is too bad those evil warmonger spies told JFK about the missiles in Cuba, thereby almost causing WWIII. So if you are against war, and against spying, just close your eyes, cross your fingers, twinkle you toes, and keep humming the Whiffenpoof Song into the rain barrel, and pretty soon those bad bad men, who love senseless war and purposeless killing, and hate puppies and kitties will all be turned into jack-in-the-boxes and wished away into the corn field."People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."Eric Arthur Blair - George Orwell 1903 -1950Best RegardsClear Ether

author: gregariz
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2013, 04:23:51 am
content: Quote from: Stonent on July 04, 2013, 02:44:13 amHmm.. most conservative parties around the world like to bang on about personal responsibility and the dangers of the nanny state... but the answer is no.. not really.Almost all other countries have come to the conclusion that government has an essential role to play in providing public services and healthcare. Of course people everywhere hate to pay taxes but the alternative is a first world society that also has deep poverty. There are nutjobs everywhere but the US is the only place I've seen where you have people as crazy and popular as Alex Jones and Glenn Beck on the radio scaring people and advertising bunkers, guns and space food for the end of the world.

author: warp_foo
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 04, 2013, 04:38:38 am
content: Quote from: MacAttak on July 04, 2013, 12:36:01 amGood ${DEITY}... it goes from bad to worse.Honestly, this blue state elitist BS is getting out of hand...Since we're making up 'facts' to support arguments: I'd say that reason there is a shift from red to blue is, the blue states are where the 'progressives' give away all 'free' money. Obamaphones, anyone? Why work when you can get on the dole?Regarding teen pregnancy, unemployment, and household income, compare Detroit to *any* mid-western state.So, yes, it is prejudice, wrapped up in elitist bullshit...m

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 04, 2013, 04:40:59 am
content: Quote from: warp_foo on July 04, 2013, 04:38:38 amAccuse me of prejudice by spouting prejudice. Great work, there. You must be from one of those "red states". My condolences.

author: warp_foo
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 04, 2013, 04:45:20 am
content: Quote from: duskglow on July 04, 2013, 04:40:59 amNo, I'm not, actually. QED...m

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 04, 2013, 04:50:39 am
content: Ah, Minnesota. Not as bad as some of the southern states, obviously. But "obamaphone", "elitist", and "on the dole" kind of shows me where your heart is, so I'm sure you can forgive the assumption.

author: jerry507
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2013, 06:44:20 am
content: Michelle Bachmann is from Minnesota, and it greatly embarrasses anyone intelligent who lives here. Our state is very polarized, with a strong contingent of idiots who seem to centralize in her district and increase in density as you head north.We live in interesting times. You can easily find someone on the forum who thinks he has a solid understand of what "Obamaphones" are, yet can't seem to actually do any basic googling to figure out he's completely wrong.

author: Stonent
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2013, 07:00:01 am
content: And I'll raise you a Senator

author: ampdoctor
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2013, 07:32:52 am
content: dusk...answer the man. Don't just shag out ad hominem attacks! Compare the red states vs the blue states and tell us which ones are in better shape? Ehhh...I'll save you the effort. The 5 states with the lowest unemployment rates are ALL red states, the majority being in the midwest and the plains. The highest include Illinois, Michigan, New York, New Jersey, California, and District of Columbia. The states with the highest literacy rates again are ALL plains states while there isn't a single blue state with a literacy rate above 70%. Detroit btw has a 47% illiteracy rate...approximately equivalent to many 3rd world countries. The blue states also have the highest rates of incarceration as well as the highest levels of debt.So in short, the states that heavily endorse a liberal agenda have the highest percentages of citizens that can't read or write, are out of work, have the worst education systems, the highest crime rates, the highest taxes, and carry the highest debt burdens. And annually the trend is getting worse not better. Tell me again how well it's working out for you? Don't believe me, check the numbers yourself. I would suggest getting hard numbers from govt statistics sites. I'll dismiss offhand anything you collected from obama-walks-on-water.com as being heavily biased and inaccurate. Equivalently, I'll dismiss lets-canonize-bush.com as well for the same reasons.As for on the dole...you bet your ass! I don't have a problem in the world with somebody getting a bit of help from the state for a few months if life throws em a nasty curve ball. I've got problems with 3 generations of welfare rats that have never picked up anything heavier than a crack pipe. The city of Chicago actually started a program to teach young adults how to get up and prepare for work in hopes it would improve the chances of either getting or retaining a job. Guess what...the program was an epic failure. A 25 year old male without a single thing wrong with him has no business collecting state aid EVER! Get off your lazy bum, take the dew rag off your head, pull your pants up and learn to speak the English language with a degree of fluency and you might actually get somewhere. I'm paying nearly 40% of my income to support that deadbeat and his or her 10 illegitimate children, among a myriad of other broken and failed state and federal programs. There is absolutely nothing you can say to justify that, and this bs is going on in every large metropolitan area of the country.

author: rolycat
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2013, 08:22:24 am
content: Quote from: ampdoctor on July 04, 2013, 07:32:52 amDespite knowing relatively little about American politics, even I can tell that this is specious reasoning.High levels of unemployment, illiteracy, criminality and debt are strongly correlated with urban environments in any developed country. States with a high proportion of large cities are also less likely to vote for conservative politicians.You are confusing cause and effect.

author: SgtRock
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 04, 2013, 09:52:27 am
content: Greetings EEVBees:--So fifty or more years of Democrat rule in Philadelphia and Detroit, have nothing to do with the fact that they look like post war East Germany before the wall came down. Do I have that right? Well, not to worry. As soon as Congress passes immigration reform (read amnesty), the 7 million additional Democrat votes, will make sure that there will not be another Republican President elected in your life time. It is over. The war is lost. The Democrats have won this one, just like they won the war in Viet Nam.--In other USA news, there is a trial taking place in Sanford Florida, where I lived and worked for many years, that is eerily reminiscent of the OJ Simpson Trial, in that, while the Prosecution's case is going down in spectacular flaming ruins in the court room, the press for the most part is reporting the opposite. There is one minor difference however. In the Zimmerman trial the prosecution is relying on faked an phony witnesses, while in the Simpson trial they relied on faked an phony forensics. I am hoping none of the much maligned men and women of the Sanford Police Department will be killed. I also hope no harm will come to my many other friends in Sanford, and that their businesses will not be torched in the forthcoming riots, being incited by Obama, Holder, Jackson, Sharpton and their racial juggernaut. As you may already know Sharpton has already had marked success in this area, having incited riots in Crown Heights and Harlem, both of which resulted in the murder of an innocent Jewish man, though he met with less success in the Duke Lacrosse Players, and the Tawana Brawley hoaxes.--As for Snowden, he is just something for the press to use to try and keep the Administration's policy of throwing gasoline on the fires in the Mid East and the Levant off of the front page."He was an embittered atheist, the sort of atheist who does not so much disbelieve in God as personally dislike Him."Eric Arthur Blair - George Orwell 1903 -1950Best RegardsClear Ether

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 04, 2013, 10:19:35 am
content: Quote from: jerry507 on July 04, 2013, 06:44:20 amAt least Minnesotians(?) elected a rebel like Jesse Ventura as governor. That shook things upI'm hoping that Julian Assange gets elected to our Senate in a few months, because politics in every country needs constant shaking up.

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2013, 10:56:00 am
content: Quote from: MikeK on July 04, 2013, 01:54:43 amAnd what about the journalist Glenn Greenwald? Kill the messanger if you don't like the message? And the most insane is that it's done by other journalists.

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2013, 11:52:20 am
content: Oh look what I just read! And I was beginning to actually believe the U.S. was the only country with bad embassy-bugging morals. Gee, maybe Australia really does do the same thing too, when they think they can get away with it?Quote

author: ampdoctor
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2013, 03:16:36 pm
content: Like I've repeatedly said, everybody's doing it and has been doing it for a very long time. Nothing that Snowden has told us is news to anybody that's got fully functioning brain cells in their head. To paraphrase Shakespear; this whole NSA affair is a lot of sound and fury signifying nothing. The really nasty stuff is never going to see the light of day.

author: staxquad
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2013, 03:31:40 pm
content: Quote from: ampdoctor on July 04, 2013, 03:16:36 pmbut only one country is trying to take over the worldfull spectrum dominancewhat is beyond comprehension is how Americans can flip flop from the Democrats to the Republicans, oblivious that they are a two headed hydra and that either one will always be worse that the previous because the hydra is progressing in their totalitarianismstop voting, you're only legitimizing the criminals

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2013, 03:48:15 pm
content: Quote from: staxquad on July 04, 2013, 03:31:40 pmIt's Peru I tell you. Peru!

author: MikeK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2013, 03:53:47 pm
content: Quote from: ampdoctor on July 04, 2013, 02:39:41 amThe facts say otherwise. One hundred years ago the elderly were overwhelmingly below the poverty line. Today less than 10% are. Thank you Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid. Take a look at the numbers with and without SS.QuoteA public program doesn't have to be the best in the world to be considered successful. Look at literacy rates before public education. And our public school system used to be the envy of the rest of the world. Then some selfish pricks decided they didn't like paying their share for other people's children and got funding to be cut...and cut...and cut some more...so that they could then point to it and say "Look!...It doesn't work....LET'S KILL IT." If public education doesn't work you might want to inform the rest of the world.QuoteYes, MIDDLE class taxes have gone up. Because rich selfish pricks have managed to shift the tax burden off of them and onto the middle class. Many rich people pay little or no taxes. Same goes for corporations. Take a look at U.S. tax rate history.QuoteGo out into the world, man. The U.S. has nothing that would be called "heavily to the left". Even people on the right, like Obama, are labeled "left" in order to pull them further to the insane right. It's only in the U.S. that socialism is viewed as evil. The rest of the world WANTS social programs and WANTS their governments implement them.QuoteFor the majority of the time we've had a federal income tax in the U.S. the top tax rate has been over 70%. For DECADES. For a while we've even had a top tax rate over 90%. Yes, that's over NINETY percent.The idea that overtaxing the rich hurts the economy is supported by zero evidence. It's total bullshit. The economy rises and falls on the middle class. They are the ones who spend almost all of their income. Rich people largely don't spend it.Also, ask the Brits what they thought of Thatcher.QuoteNinety-one percent of red states are welfare queens. Only 39 percent of blue states are. Google "red state welfare".

author: ampdoctor
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2013, 07:09:37 pm
content: Quote from: MikeK on July 04, 2013, 03:53:47 pmBe careful with those numbers. As the saying goes there are lies, damn lies, and statistics. I want to know how those numbers were calculated and if the books have been cooked or not. In this I mean that if you consider income as a retired elderly person obviously you're income will be below the poverty line. Or are they considering personal savings which was largely unreported 100 years ago so it would be difficult to determine exactly how much they actually had squirreled away for retirement.Currently the social security and medicare system are false economies and overstate how well off people actually are. The elderly on average have very little personal savings and they are dis-saving at an alarming rate. This makes them virtually 100% dependent on the government for their quality of life. Whereas 100 years ago there was no such safety net and the elderly had to be cautious about how they handled their personal finances. Also the implementation of medicare, among a few other insurance based issues, has driven the price of medical treatment through the roof when people need it the most. So between social security and medicare, people become dependent on the government for their survival and has removed any level of moral hazard from the equations of both actors. That's not living that's slavery!As an aside, when social security was first implemented, individuals couldn't collect on it until two years after the average life expectancy of the beneficiary. And believe it or not in the 1930's they did know when people were dead and kept records of their age. So clearly they never expected to have to actually pay out on this insurance premium they were extracting from the population.QuoteThe money going toward public education is not being cut and cut. It's being increased annually at an exponential rate. Yet our kids have problems reading, writing, performing basic math skills. I'm not saying that it has to be the best in the world to not be considered a failure. But when our performance scores for kids coming out of school are just marginally higher than 3rd world countries YES let's kill it! The system clearly isn't working and it needs an overhaul, and throwing more and more money at it is not fixing the problem. As the saying goes;"the definition of insanity is continuing to do same thing and expecting different results." I don't have a problem with paying for education but I do have a problem paying to have the money thrown down a black hole.Want a high quality education system? At least at the primary level the students need a pencil and paper, and the school needs a blackboard, chalk and teachers that actually care about teaching. What we don't need are computers, video games, and calculators in third grade math class. We don't need "scratch and sniff" workbooks to teach our kids how to read. And we don't need teachers that have to take 60 hours of education classes and 15 hours of their specialization. What we do need are teachers that are passionate and knowledgeable about their subject and are able to instill a passion in the students. And that doesn't cost a dime! I actually had an argument over a typo in a textbook a few years ago with a MATH teacher and his contention was that the sine of an angle is the adjacent over the hypotenuse of a right triangle . I don't want to hear about tenure or any other crap. That man needs to be fired immediately because he's not qualified to teach his subject.As far as literacy rates, I won't deny that 100+ years ago plenty of people couldn't read or write, though I'd be curious to see what they historically consider literate back in the day because I suspect that the numbers were highly understated. Out here in cow country, if you couldn't read and write you were blued, screwed, tattooed, and fucked up the river in a barbed wire boat. It may have been a different story in urban sweat shops of the 1800's. We have the oldest township school in our state. I've seen copies of the exams they gave in the 1800's and it's brutal by modern standards! By lowering the standards, teaching to the test, and claiming higher scores as an indicator of a programs success is NOT an increase in the quality of the education system.QuoteObama on the right? Are you insane?! He's about as left as they come. Just because people WANT something doesn't mean it's a good thing. If a high percentage of little kids want to play in the middle of busy streets are you going to let them do it just because they want to? All this means is that the rest of the world has been conditioned to believe that the nanny state is preferred and that they don't have to think about personal responsibility or accountability because the government will just take care of it. Actually the system has become so entrenched that you'd have a hard time getting "off the grid" and making it on your own even if you wanted to, which was not the case 100 years ago.QuoteActually economies rise and fall on manufacturing whereby the middle class purchases goods and services with money earned through high paying manufacturing jobs. By the way, with regard to corporate taxation, businesses have NEVER paid taxes...EVER in the history of free markets. Taxes are considered a variable cost and are rolled into the purchase price of the good or service. Therefore, if you stick it to corporate with high taxes all you're going to do is cause rampant inflation across all sectors of the economy.And which rich people are you talking about? 250k is NOT rich by a damn sight! When a reasonable house, not extravagant, costs 350k, a car costs 35k, and a loaf of bread costs 4 bucks that money goes bye bye fast. As for those selfish pricks, the vast majority of "rich people' in this country are small business owners,employ the largest percentage of the workforce and they give back to the community in spades. they buy little league uniforms, assist in local food banks, pay for parks and recreation facilities, give incredible amounts of time and money to local and national charities. What a bunch of dirtbags.QuoteAs I've said before, pulling data from hardline democratic sources off hand. One site high on the google list uses terms such as blood sucking vampires, parasitic gold diggers etc. When the bias is that heavy I cant trust their data...PERIOD.Now here's some data for you. This info comes from the us govt accounting office. The highest govt spending recipients are in orderOhio at 828 billionNew Jersey at 888 billionIllinois at 889 billionLouisiana at 994 billionVirginia at 1.05 trillionPennsylvania at 1.1 trillionNew York at 1.7 trillionTexas at 2.4 trillionCalifornia at 2.9 trillionFlorida at 3.8 trillionMoreover, in the aggregate 12.2 trillion have gone to blue states and 5.6 trillion have gone to red states. These are hard numbers without any political spin on them.You also have to be careful on what you consider 'welfare' Many times these welfare disbursements are not entitlement programs but rather agricultural and energy subsidies, research grants, military spending programs etc. The data has been spun and manipulated for political gain in so many areas that it takes real work to actually find and analyze the un-spun data.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 04, 2013, 07:16:20 pm
content: Lies, damn lies and statistics. California has the population of Canada. You're not taking relative population into account. Ohio has the population of Los Angeles county at around ten million, and every state there but California, New York, New Jersey, and maybe Pennsylvania are one of those aforementioned "midwest/south bible belt" states. If you're trying to disprove the original statement that the "left coast" are more on the dole, you're not succeeding. Also note that Illinois, New York, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, and California all are extremely urbanized and have a very high concentration of urban poverty (New York City, Philadelphia, Los Angeles, Chicago). This isn't a political problem, it's a human problem.Also, wrt, Obama, that's just cementing in my mind what your political leanings are. Remember, reality has a well known liberal bias.

author: Stonent
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2013, 07:40:14 pm
content: (cough) Laffer curve (cough)

author: Stonent
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2013, 09:50:31 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on July 04, 2013, 09:27:28 pmTell that to the people who won't work overtime because it makes their paycheck smaller.

author: MacAttak
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 05, 2013, 12:45:13 am
content: Quote from: warp_foo on July 04, 2013, 04:38:38 amAfter reading your other posts on this thread, I can see that you're just frothing-at-the-mouth in hatred towards anything that isn't extreme conservatism and looking to convince others that your insane view of reality has any foundation.But before you get off your soapbox, you should probably know that I was born and raised in a red state in the deep south, and I've always lived in areas steeped in "conservatism". Which here in the south is just another way of saying "fascism and deeply rooted racism". I know what the deep south is about - I live here every day. Welfare isn't something that happens in far-off big cities where hippies vote for handouts for the panhandlers that choose to not work. Welfare is right here on my doorstep, and it's the only thing that keeps many of these red states afloat. And where does that money come from? It sure as shit isn't coming from the red states who can't afford to pay for their own bills.Want to talk about elitist bullshit? Elitist bullshit is being a self-righteous privileged and prejudiced blowhole who passes judgement on internet strangers.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 05, 2013, 01:02:35 am
content: Quote from: staxquad on July 04, 2013, 03:31:40 pmThat's the craziest advice ever.You can only achieve change by getting off your arse and voting, and not for the major parties and incumbents.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 05, 2013, 01:04:24 am
content: Quote from: MacAttak on July 05, 2013, 12:45:13 amI agree with your assessment. There's a certain kind of hateful talk that comes from people of a conservative persuasion, directed towards "dirty libruls" on either coast. I admit I was not exactly kind when speaking of our brothers and sisters in the south and midwest, but that is *exactly* the attitude that I was referring to.I encountered this attitude on a Facebook group the other day. They called people from Portland "liberal idiots". I stated that they're my peeps. I'm not liberal, but I tend to gravitate towards them as opposed to conservatives. I got told to stay here, don't come back to their neck of the woods. Which, by the way, is my hometown.This is an international forum, and I regret that our dirty laundry gets aired quite like this, but on the other hand, this is reality. This is what the saner branch of the US has to deal with all the time. And, sadly, they make laws.

author: warp_foo
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 05, 2013, 01:39:57 am
content: Quote from: duskglow on July 05, 2013, 01:04:24 amI almost chose not to reply, and I won't continue past this one, but you should both get a room.One guy denigrates all of the 'red states', and the second doubles down. When I point out the bias, they choose to gang up on me.Who amongst us has typed hateful messages again?m

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 05, 2013, 02:14:13 am
content: No, two of us disagree with you strongly, that's about as far as it goes. I do find your attitude representative, but I'm sure you're a stand up guy.I do try to stay away from the actual personal attacks, so I apologize if I crossed that line. Your attitude, however, in my view, is fair game.

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 05, 2013, 02:54:12 am
content: Quote from: MikeK on July 04, 2013, 03:53:47 pmThe American public school system has never been the envy of the world. It's always been a laughing stock. And don't blame it on spending - it's always blamed on spending, yet we spend more per student than any other country in the world, by a huge margin. Yet we have much worse results. It's foolish to say we need to spend more to do better when we already spend more and do worse.QuoteIt's a falsehood that "many rich pay little or no taxes". You can look up the data for yourself at the IRS, but everyone's taxes are lower today than they were decades ago - however the middle and lower class, percentage-wise, have gotten a much larger tax cut in the past 30-40 years than the upper class. Corporate tax in the USA is way too high - and those costs are just passed to the consumer anyway.QuoteAnd the USA has been significantly more socioeconomically successful than other nations. It's already known that social programs take a heavy toll economically. Social spending in the USA has risen by a massive amount over the years, and in many areas there is little to show for it. We need to dramatically cut social spending. We'll have to one way or another, because the US economy does not produce enough $$ to fund what the government spends, even if you took everything from "the rich". We can pay the piper now or later... our choice.QuoteThe effective tax rate was never 90% - it was hugely offset by deductions. What percentage of people's own money do you think they should be allowed to keep? It's already proven that when you enact punitive tax rates, people (and business) go elsewhere. The Beatles even wrote a song about it.QuoteIt's common sense. Think about if the top tax rate was 100%. Then if it was 99%, 98%, etc. It's a curve. And "rich people" do not have their money under the mattress. It's circulating around the economy even when it's owned by an individual. Most people who are upset about the taxes that the rich pay feel the way they do because of a sense of "economic fairness", not that the government needs the money. Reality is that the government is never ever going to make you wealthy.

author: Kremmen
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2013, 11:21:58 am
content: Quote from: ampdoctor on July 04, 2013, 03:16:36 pmNo, "everybody" is not doing "it". All nations have some kind of service providing intelligence to their government. That is only prudent. But it is a long way from that idea to what we are discussing here. Putting the two under the same umbrella is deliberately confusing the issue. Let me tell you why, since you obviously have difficulties in seeing the difference, and the issue here.Certain kinds of violations of privacy are justified to expose dangerous activities such as terrorism and major crime. One of these violations is monitoring private communications. The state is entitled to limit the freedom of individuals in cases where those individuals are threatening to limit the freedoms of others. The question is, how far is it acceptable to go in this direction before it turns against the principles of a justice state, freedom and government by the governed, i.e. democracy. Just like John Noble asks in the Discovery channel ad for "Dark Matters": "how far is too far? When does science go to the dark side?"The members of this forum are better qualified than most, to understand how all-pervasive such monitoring can be. The latest revelations by Snowden just confirmed that the worst was not an exaggeration. The Big Brother really is listening. The sad part of this is that the US is spying on its friends like they were its worst enemies. It is sad for two reasons, first that the US is in a state where this kind of development is possible and secondly, for the break of trust which will be slow to heal, if ever. I am sure the fact of information gathering by US can not be a surprise to anyone, but the extent and underhanded way of practicing it might be.Der Spiegel ("The Mirror" - a big German magazine) reported that US monitors half a billion communications per month in Germany alone. Information like this is cause for consternation - is it really necessary between friends? Because if the answer is yes, the the meaning of the word "friend" might be in need of revising. The old saying comes to mind: "with friends like these, who needs enemies?" The Reds never got up to this level during the cold war, and definitely not for lack of trying. I have first hand experience but maybe that is for another time.My opinion that i share with many, is that the US should rethink the organization of its control apparatus and consider quis qustodiet ipsos custodes. It is not defending freedom any more, when the control machinery gets out of hand and outlines its own governing principles. Because this is what apparently is going on in the US. The various organs of government are apparently developing into states within the state, grabbing power and perpetuating their own existence and agendas at the cost of open society. Already there are several features in the US society that are not aligned with true democracy. Continue on that road and somewhere at the end is a totalitarian state. I have visited the Soviet Union in its heyday. I see many similarities. Remember history lest you need to relive it.QuoteThat is a real lame ass excuse for the state of affairs. One notes that in discussions of social issues in the US, the overall census seems to be that more jails are needed, and more guns to the police. Solve the problem then and only then, when you cannot tolerate it any more. So the liquor store robber goes to jail when 20 yr old instead of school when he was 7. Never solve a problem at the first beginning, but only at the absolute last moment... Same here. That there are these organizations that are little different from those they guard against, is used as an excuse to perpetuate the state of affairs instead of an alarm sign to rethink the whole thing.Typically, these same organizations are making Snowden into a traitor. I have to ask, is it treason to expose the frankly traitorous activities of an entire government? It may be deeply embarrassing to those exposed, as it should be but treason - i don't think so. I'm sure he has broken any number of laws in the US but that does not necessarily make him a criminal in the eyes of the rest of the world.I seriously doubt a fair trial for Snowden is possible in the US. Nevertheless, that would be the optimal solution. Also, the world is expecting the US to clarify the limits of proper behavior to itself and to the rest of us.

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2013, 11:46:23 am
content: Quote from: Kremmen on July 05, 2013, 11:21:58 am"Trust but verify ..."

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2013, 12:51:34 pm
content: Quote from: Kremmen on July 05, 2013, 11:21:58 amIt very simple. By monitoring German communications the NSA, i.e. the USA, violated the German constitution (Grundgesetz). So our judiciary has to investigate, prosecute and punish the people involved. It's not about "friendship", it's about being a constitutional state. And our politicians need to be very careful in what they are doing and saying because this year the citizens may vote for a new government.BTW, the German government is saying that it didn't know anything. The German agencies do the same. Either they're not telling the truth or they're totally incompetent. I assume the first and expect that there's much more involvement of our agencies in the whole story than most would think. I should stack up my storage of popcorn :-)

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2013, 01:03:14 pm
content: Quote from: xrunner on July 05, 2013, 11:46:23 amThere's a lot of industrial espionage too. Unfortunately most companies were too naive, until now. A business lobby group just started whining this week :-) I think we should take these revelations as a starting point to re-think what's important, what no to do and to clean up the whole mess. And never forget, if big money is involved there's no friendship.

author: Kremmen
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2013, 02:16:31 pm
content: Quote from: xrunner on July 05, 2013, 11:46:23 amThat was Stalin's argument. You really want to go there?

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2013, 02:34:46 pm
content: Quote from: Kremmen on July 05, 2013, 02:16:31 pmI must - I posted it.

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2013, 02:42:02 pm
content: Devil's advocate: Even bad people can have good ideas. It's a fallacy to claim that an argument isn't valid because Stalin made it.However, I think there's a big difference between "trust but verify" and "verify through complete breach of trust".

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2013, 02:44:57 pm
content: Quote from: c4757p on July 05, 2013, 02:42:02 pmIndeed. If Stalin said gravity causes bowling balls to fall - would that make it a bad observation just because he was a nasty dictator?

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2013, 02:46:58 pm
content: Quote from: c4757p on July 05, 2013, 02:42:02 pm

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2013, 02:47:36 pm
content: Quote from: c4757p on July 05, 2013, 02:46:58 pmWhy are you re-quoting yourself?

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2013, 02:52:17 pm
content: Because I like to hear myself talk.Or, because I still don't think it's legitimate to call this "trust but verify" and want to clarify that despite partially arguing in support of your point, I still don't really agree with it.

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2013, 02:54:39 pm
content: Quote from: c4757p on July 05, 2013, 02:52:17 pmWell if were doing that (re-quoting our previous thoughts) it's about time I re-quoted myself. How about this one from day one of the thread -Quote from: xrunner on July 02, 2013, 12:25:01 pm

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2013, 02:57:58 pm
content: I dub thee Nostradamus.

author: MacAttak
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 05, 2013, 03:44:05 pm
content: I'll point out that even though many in the world (and by extension - many in this forum) happen to believe that Snowden did a "good" thing, the fact does remain that he is almost certain to be convicted as a traitor to the United States if/when they manage to get him back onto US soil. He willfully turned over highly classified state secrets to foreign governments (actually, to the general public), and has freely admitted to as much.He is being charged under the provisions of the Espionage Act, and those cases aren't known for leniency - especially under the Obama administration.So whether you feel he is a hero or not, his actions almost certainly fall clearly under the definition of "treason" in US law.I personally think he did a stupid but ultimately good thing by getting this subject flying high on the radar. Too bad he will pay a high price for it.

author: Kremmen
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2013, 04:36:11 pm
content: Quote from: c4757p on July 05, 2013, 02:42:02 pmYou are of course absolutely correct. The validity of an idea should be independent of the person expressing it. I really meant what you say in the second sentence; Stalin's way of "making sure" was by brutal oppression resulting in the deaths of untold millions.Quote from: xrunner on July 05, 2013, 02:34:46 pmSo the methods of either Stalin or current US gov't don't bother you at all? I have to wonder if you know your history, but then why should i care. It is up to you to educate yourself.

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2013, 04:43:57 pm
content: Quote from: Kremmen on July 05, 2013, 04:36:11 pmEducate myself? It's up to you to stop being so naive - like a child. You are simple making a sweeping generalization with a comparison between Stalin and the U.S. government. That's idiotic.So you're from Finland. You think your country doesn't spy on other countries? You think they wouldn't bug embassies if they could get away with it? Put away your crack pipe, the fumes are affecting other here as well.

author: staxquad
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2013, 04:52:48 pm
content: Quote from: madires on July 05, 2013, 12:51:34 pmThe German Chancellors who get elected always has to sign a declaration stating that they will make decisions favoring the USA and not the German State and it's people.A puppet government in an occupied country; there's a reason why there's US military bases in Germany (and 1000+ US military bases in over 130 countries).The Government will act surprised as they facilitated the espionage against their people.

author: staxquad
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2013, 04:56:27 pm
content: Quote from: MacAttak on July 05, 2013, 03:44:05 pmtry not to hold your nose the next time you are forced to read an unabridged Constitution and Bill of Rightsdon't bother pointing out how the Government is breaking the law, because that would show that you are not a Neocon Patriot

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 05, 2013, 05:02:47 pm
content: I don't trust any of them from any country, it used to be black and white USA vs USSR, now all the boundaries are blurred ,they can monitor my phone, emails, ham radio transmissions if they want, when they get bored, they could shove all the files up their craggy arses so far the sun would never shine on them .

author: Kremmen
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2013, 05:22:10 pm
content: Quote from: xrunner on July 05, 2013, 04:43:57 pmWell, i wasn't trying to make a direct comparison. Hmm, or was i? Interesting that you thought i did. However, i do know from personal experience that the current US shares more practices with the onetime Soviet Union than would make you entirely comfortable. I don't expect you to realize or acknowledge this, since it is highly likely that you don't actually know. We could start from say Quantanamo and the gulag archipelago and go from there, but maybe this is not the place.QuoteYep, from Finland and proud to be. After all, what's not to be proud of since my country is consistently ranked as one of the best countries to live in, and sometimes _the_ best.To answer your question, yes i do think they wouldn't bug embassies. Actually i am quite convinced that they don't. Unlike the US, Finland hasn't collected a set of international enemies to guard against, and as a small nation of just over 5 million souls in peace with the rest of the world, there is little reason to do so. Now i don't claim to be privy to any secrets of the state but it would be a big surprise indeed to find out that Finland had done something like that. A lapse of that magnitude in government oversight does not appear credible. And with the consent of the government - just forget it. We tend to be what you accuse me of; a bit naive in our belief that we should do unto others as we wish them to do unto us. Sure, there are individuals, even in high places that see things through different colored glasses, but it is safe to say that the rule of law is upheld even in matters of foreign policy.I realize it is difficult to understand but the Nordic countries really are quite different from what now seems to be the norm in the US. Crack pipes and foreign policies included.

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2013, 05:41:21 pm
content: Quote from: Kremmen on July 05, 2013, 05:22:10 pmI see. So tell me, since you haven't "collected a set of international enemies to guard against" I will take it your country doesn't have an army or air force or other defense forces. I mean why would you have them, since your country has no enemies right? Can you verify for us that Finland has no military?

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2013, 06:52:11 pm
content: The Finns only had one right on the border, and were rightly rather wary of Uncle Joe and his actions after being trodden over a few times. Thus the wishing to keep a warning that they will not roll over like the French.

author: Kremmen
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2013, 06:59:26 pm
content: Quote from: xrunner on July 05, 2013, 05:41:21 pmOur naivete doesn't go quite that far. Yes, Finland does have one of the biggest standing armies - sorry, defense forces - in Europe if the reservist are included. We did put it to good use some time ago when certain of our neighbors had their own ideas about border placement. You see it only takes one to start a fight. For my part i am proud to have served in the same army - sorry, defense force - where our daddies took on the Soviets head on and did not get trodden over despite the ridiculous odds.But do check these links to get an idea what i am talking about.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winter_Warhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuation_WarA lesson well learned by both sides and unlikely to be repeated.But surely you agree that just having an army - sorry, defense force - is more or less the same as locking your door at night, simple prudence. Neglecting either is to invite unwelcome visitors, whoever they might turn out to be. The topic now under discussion is something else entirely.

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2013, 07:24:40 pm
content: Quote from: Kremmen on July 05, 2013, 06:59:26 pmI see. So Finland has no enemies, yet it does have a military just in case. Hmmm, sounds reasonable. Simple prudence as you call it. More or less the same as locking your door at night as you call it. Yet, you think it isn't prudent to spy on other countries or embassies. I fail to see how having an army just in case you need it is any different than having information just in case you need it.How can you rationalize having one and not the other?QuoteNeglecting the use of spy information is to invite unwelcome visitors too. What if you learned an attack on Finland was about to occur from a bug in an embassy? An army can only react to what it sees happening. With forward-looking information, it can act in a far more efficient manner. So, again I claim you are naive in your quaint outlook on the world.

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2013, 07:50:24 pm
content: Quote from: xrunner on July 05, 2013, 07:24:40 pmI lock my door in case the neighbor decides he wants my television. I do not listen to his phone calls to see if he's talking about how much he'd like one.

author: Hex173t
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2013, 08:15:44 pm
content: There's a big difference between someone plotting to steal your TV and a nation or group plotting to start a skirmish, war, etc, with another nation. Lets not compare a nuisance what could potentially be lives lost.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 05, 2013, 08:30:45 pm
content: I think the obvious rejoinder here is, nations don't have doors that can be locked.

author: Kremmen
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2013, 08:40:03 pm
content: Quote from: xrunner on July 05, 2013, 07:24:40 pmWith greatest of ease, and it is precisely the point of this discussion; it is not having the army/information but what are you willing to do with it/to get it. Expedient spying may be, and spying known enemies might even be acceptable. Spying your friends is, well, despicable. Do you do that in your private life?QuoteIndeed, the logic of the totalitarian government runs along the rails you lay down. I would not call it prudence anymore, however, but rather a combination of paranoia and the slippery slope of increasing infractions against liberties i wrote about earlier.With increased surveillance you get ever more information. Admittedly the majority of it is irrelevant but there just might be that one vital piece of information. If only more data could be gathered. Somewhere along the line, if your values go that way, the rights of the governed stop mattering because the security of "the establishment" takes priority. Then the culprit (the gov't org) can justify illegal means, at least to themselves. And of course the foreigners don't matter in the first place because they never really had any rights to begin with. So why give a flying f**k if some distant nobodies are offended. So go ahead and spy all you can. Sound about right?Spelling out why i think your bugging strategy is the naive one as far as Finland is concerned would perhaps take more time and words than i am willing to invest. I see that it is a difficult concept for you to imagine a nation with no real enemies. Yet we find ourselves in that happy position. So should we then bug the entire world to uncover an almost certainly nonexistent plot to invade poor us? Didn't think so either. Actually, that would be the hard way as far as situational awareness is concerned.Coming back to my first post in this thread, i do acknowledge the value of targeted surveillance. But that should be definitely be viewed as a policing strategy, not an informal extension of a nation's foreign policy. Indiscriminate spying on everyone and everything just makes you someone not to trust.

author: staxquad
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2013, 09:35:26 pm
content: Find vulnerable people (not so bright, on the fringe, pissed off for any reason) by spying on everyone, infiltrate them, encourage them, promise them money and glory, equip them with false explosives and detonators, then when you catch them (because it's the FBI or the RCMP who set it all up), tell the public they were never under threat because the explosives were supplied by the FBI or RCMP and were inert. The only threat out there is your fascist Government and their false flag operations to scare you into giving them totalitarianism.

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2013, 11:31:26 pm
content: Well I don't know what else to add at this point, except that I'm glad we have this thread to foster and nurture brotherhood and love between the nations of the Earth.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 05, 2013, 11:42:32 pm
content: I think the independence day one was more rancorous, actually, no thanks to me.Truthfully, I try hard, and often fail, to remember that "us" and "them" are really just social illusions, and that a lot of people profit off of the idea of "them". So, friends, I got yer back. Even if you're from a midwest state.

author: HackedFridgeMagnet
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2013, 12:14:17 am
content: Just to even things up, here is an example of European State sponsored terrorism, and misuse of power against a smaller nation. Though it was almost thirty years ago.It was the sinking of the original Rainbow Warrior.http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2005/jul/15/activists.g2

author: MacAttak
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 06, 2013, 05:27:47 am
content: Quote from: staxquad on July 05, 2013, 04:56:27 pmI have no idea what you are spewing on about, other than lashing out at someone who has a US flag under their avatar. Treason is the actually the ONLY crime defined in the Constitution itself. Nothing in the Bill of Rights refutes it, and the crime is further defined and reinforced by both the Alien and Sedition Act of 1798 and especially the Espionage Act of 1917. It is a fact that the current administration has had no problems whatsoever in prosecuting other recent cases of classified data leaks - and none of them have been close to the scale of this one. If you want examples, you'll find plenty here:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Espionage_Act#21st_centuryI don't see why that has ruffled your feathers so much. I'm not saying this guy deserves to be drawn and quartered. I'm just saying that as the laws of this country stand today, he's pretty much guaranteed to be locked up with the key thrown away. The government isn't "breaking the law" at all by going after him - if anything, it is required to do everything it can to prosecute him. About the only thing that could save his ass at this point would be an unprecedented presidential pardon.But I will admit, that is the very first time anyone has ever called me a neocon. I think maybe you don't know what that word means?

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 06, 2013, 05:31:52 am
content: I don't think anyone's denying that he will face a very high price if he's caught. I think the debate is regarding whether that price will be constitutional or unconstitutional (cruel and unusual punishment? Almost a given in this case, and *that* is a constitutional problem.)I think if there were reasonable confidence that he would be treated humanely and get due process, even Snowden would probably willingly take his lumps (maybe not, but it's possible). But there's no confidence in that at all. The government screwed the pooch when they treated Bradley Manning the way they did. Governments everywhere don't seem to understand that treating people badly isn't really a deterrent, it's more of a motivator than anything.

author: firewalker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2013, 08:40:32 am
content: Alexander.

author: unixxx
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: July 06, 2013, 10:48:50 am
content: "In God We Trust, All Others We Monitor"

author: bitwelder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2013, 01:48:47 pm
content: Quote from: unixxx on July 06, 2013, 10:48:50 am(*) but just because we don't know how to bug his seat.

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 06, 2013, 02:07:40 pm
content: Quote from: MacAttak on July 06, 2013, 05:27:47 amI think you are correct in that he has broken the law and according to the law, should be prosecuted. However, as with so many things under this administration (and the previous one), what's good for the goose doesn't work for the gander. What I mean is that Snowden exposed outright lies from this goverment - like the guy who went before congress and denied this type of monitoring was going on. I really feel the USA has become a police state. We take/took naked pictures of people in order for them to fly. Our police force has become militarized and no longer is there to serve and protect but rather to rule and control. We have a different set of laws for the politically connected than for the regular citizen. We increasingly bully our "friends" and our own citizens. We use all methods within our power to get what we want, regardless of legality or morality - case in point is demanding that EU countries not let the Bolivian President fly over their airspace. It's pathetic that we made the request, worse that our lickspittles acceded to it, and worse yet that they try to laughably cover it up as "well, it was just that they were low on fuel and their transit permit expired".It's bizarre when Russia is a more free nation than the USA. Something's wrong, and most Americans don't seem to care about it at all.

author: ampdoctor
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2013, 05:28:10 pm
content: Quote from: Corporate666 on July 06, 2013, 02:07:40 pmExactly! Not long after the wall came down my mom was heavily involved with figure skating and a few charity organizations. At some big hob knobbing thing with all the international skaters she had a conversation with some big shot Russian skater, Victor Pretrenko perhaps, who told her "You have no more freedom here than in Russia...you just do it differently"The biggest problem with many Americans is not that they don't care. They're incapable of caring. it's that we have a generation of individuals that have been conditioned not to think and are scared, paranoid, and consumed with the "I want it now" mentality, and absolutely no moral (in a general sense, not religious, though it can be) compass, and have completely relinquished their sovereign authority over their own lives to the power of the State.I know it's highly overused but true none the less, to quote Morpheus in "The matrix", "You have to understand, most of these people are not ready to be unplugged. And many of them are so inured, so hopelessly dependent on the system, that they will fight to protect it."

author: romovs
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2013, 06:18:27 pm
content: Quote from: Corporate666 on July 06, 2013, 02:07:40 pmAlthough constitutions of both countries almost identical, in practice USA is heaven compared to Russia when it comes to civil liberties.

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 06, 2013, 06:25:24 pm
content: Quote from: romovs on July 06, 2013, 06:18:27 pmIt depends.I've spent a lot of time in Russia and I do a lot of business in Russia.There was that Reddit founder who was dogged by the government for copyright violation or some shit like that. I don't think such a thing would ever happen in Russia.There is a lot more corruption and political favoritism in Russia, but it's a lot better than it was when I first went there 20 years ago. Meanwhile, the USA has gotten much, much worse. There was a story on the news about the cops going to someone's house and asking them to use the home to watch another home. The family said no, and they were violently arrested.When the police can come into your home and just arrest you for not handing over control to them, we've lost the plot. And those cops will get a slap on the wrist at worst. Reality is they should all be in jail along with their superiors.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 06, 2013, 06:39:18 pm
content: Quote from: Corporate666 on July 06, 2013, 06:25:24 pmWhile I agree this is unacceptable, that family is currently suing, and is doing so without fear of violent reprisal. As long as that redress is possible, we're not quite down that hole yet. Agreed that the redress will probably be in the form of money with no admission of wrongdoing, and that's a problem. But let's keep some perspective - the system, at least, still works to some degree.In some places, suing the government is impossible, and if you seek redress in any fashion, you will be disappeared, and no one will ever see or hear from you again. For all our faults, we are nowhere *near* that point.

author: romovs
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2013, 06:58:11 pm
content: Quote from: Corporate666 on July 06, 2013, 06:25:24 pmI am not familiar with the above Reddit or police story, but persecution for copyright violation and police arbitrariness happen all the time in Russia too. Usually to much worse extent due to higher levels of corruption.While the situation improved considerably since the mid 90' as you say, it still hasn't reached current US levels by any measurement.As for USA situation getting worse, maybe.. never been there before 00' so can't compare. But I would think you guys still have a long way to go before reaching Ru levels.

author: ampdoctor
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2013, 09:36:32 pm
content: Quote from: duskglow on July 06, 2013, 06:39:18 pmWhile I'm not explicitly familiar with that case, and I can agree that there won't be any 'violent' reprisals the family would be best served if they left the area. From there on out, if they roll a stop sign they're going to get a ticket, seat belt stops, he fails to mow his grass one weekend he'll be fined, and it will go and go and go like that for a very long time. In a lot of communities you learn very quickly not to challenge authority, and if you do there will be reprisals in one form or another. The powers that be have the capacity to make your life a living hell if they so choose without violating a single law.If you're driving down the road minding your own business and a squad car is following behind you do you feel safe or do you feel nervous? If you feel nervous you're not living in a free State. There are something on the order of 20 million laws on the books and it all depends upon which ones they decide to focus on at any given moment.QuoteDon't know why but suddenly I've got that image in my head of Madonna holding her arms up with the words "Free Pussy" written on them!

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 07, 2013, 05:22:35 am
content: Quote from: duskglow on July 06, 2013, 06:39:18 pmI've seen too many videos to count of police brutality, and police acting like overlords and thugs.... happens all the time. The homeless man in SF who was beaten to death. The soldier who was shot and killed. Both on video, both received "well, there were extenuating circumstances you don't see in the video". There's tons of videos on Liveleak of cops acting like thugs when someone tries to record them. A video of a cop kicking a woman in the head because she swung her foot at him (while on the ground handcuffed, and she missed). A cop who was arrested for assault after beating a handcuffed teenager, but was just recently acquitted and the judge refused to watch the video because no independent people could verify it's authenticity (it was just the cop and kid in the video) - and the state congressman chiming in to say that it's a good ruling, and videos should only be used to protect police, not to prosecute them.This stuff happens hundreds of times every single day... most of it we never hear about.As for the family I mentioned - suing doesn't cut it. The cops need to be in jail. How many LEO's go to jail? They have to commit incredibly egregious crimes to even be prosecuted. At most, they are dismissed from the force or given a slap on the wrist. Like the cop in Florida who was driving down the center of the road at 120mph to get to his other job... and got pulled over by a state trooper. He got fired, then re-hired by another department a few weeks later. If anyone else did exactly the same thing, it would be 2-3 years of our lives gone. Or the cops who mistakenly broke into the mayors house, and shot his dogs. Or the cops who a couple of weeks back did a drug bust on the wrong house and shot and killed 61yr old man inside who came running to see what was doing on. Or the guy who was riding his motorcycle and a cop in his personal car cut him off, jumped out of his car with gun pulled and threatened to shoot if he didn't get on the ground... just for speeding. Or the cop in NC who was pissed at being overtaken so pulled in front of the guy who passed him and slammed on his brakes, then told the cops who came to the scene that the other guy was driving like crazy and rear-ended him... he didn't know the guy was taping it though, and the cop was "disciplined". If you or I did that, a dozen cops would come and we'd be beaten up and tossed in jail and charged with attempted murder. These are just stories I recall over the last months or year or so. There are hundreds more that happen ever week that we'll never hear about.On the other hand, in countries like Denmark or even Israel, when the police use force, there is a huge investigation and it's front page news. The police are required to act above and beyond the professionalism of an average person. In the USA, we let them act like thugs and we even call them heroes for it. Look at the reaction in Boston - cops going door to door ordering people out of their own homes at gunpoint. Pointing guns at law abiding citizens who were watching from their windows. Look at Katrina/NewOrleans... the cops who were going around executing a few people, or when the cops went door-to-door confiscating people's legally owned guns.We are not the worst in terms of liberty and freedom, but we are far, far, far from the best. We're not even in the top 10. Probably not even the top 20. And it's getting worse every year. Extra-judicial killing of American citizens... killing dozens of women and children in drone strikes "for anti-terrorism purposes". Torturing "combatants" and holding them indefinitely without trial. Torturing our own people (that Wikileaks guy). Spying on our own people. Giving guns to terrorists (Syria). Ignoring whatever we like in the Constitution (i.e. health care mandate, political spending/contributions, etc, etc).It's just a matter of time before we're worse than the Stasi ever were - if we're not there already.

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 07, 2013, 05:24:45 am
content: Quote from: romovs on July 06, 2013, 06:58:11 pmIt would be impossible to convey how much worse things have gotten since 9/11/2001. We use drones to spy on our own people. We torture our own citizens. We hold other people with no trial and we torture them. Any law can be broken - the government will always find a justification of why it's not really breaking a law. Any law. They can take your guns, put you in jail forever with no trial. They can execute you and never get prosecuted. They can do anything they want - there is always a justifiable reason - since 9/11, it was "to stop terrorism".

author: Kremmen
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2013, 08:46:16 am
content: Quote from: ampdoctor on July 06, 2013, 09:36:32 pmI think this is actually a pretty good indicator.Some time ago in one those political analysis shows on TV, there was this comment from a Russian milice (police) officer from St Peterburg or Moscow where he among other things said something like "it is OK for the citizens to be terrified of us", his meaning being that this was supposed to bolster their authority. In fact it of course makes sure that they can do whatever they want with impunity. Like e.g. robbing tourists as has happened to a friend and many others.Fortunately i have never been stopped while driving in the US, but the impression one gets from watching american reality TV is that the predominant police tactics in arrest situations is to dominate with fear and firepower. That could be just TV of course, but then again, maybe not.It may sound a bit lame, but i have to note that all of the times i have had encounters with the police in Finland, Sweden, Norway it never occurred to me to fear them. Of course the worst i have got is a few speeding tickets and a couple of fines for narrowly missed annual tech inspections, but even in those cases the cops acted with perfect neutral professionalism. I'm sure a contributing factor is the overall education and training of the police force that is well up to and maybe exceeding the average - definitely in the higher echelons where an academic degree is a must. Anyway there is no detectable us vs them, the police is an integrated part of the society and the appearance of a patrol car causes nobody to run except maybe those with a real reason to do so.Also in Finland and i'm sure elsewhere in the Nordics as well, all use of firearms by the police are separately investigated by an independent party. The latest happened not too long ago in Helsinki, where the police subdued a gun waving loonie by force in a crowded mall. Turned out the gun was fake but who was to know. Anyway the guy just got shot in the leg with minor wounds and the police got a clean bill.We have our own version of the reality TV where they follow the doings of a police patrol car. It is very different from the US version.

author: SgtRock
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 07, 2013, 08:56:32 am
content: Greetings EEVBees:-- I am aware of some cases where american citizens who were working with foreign terrorist combatants being killed overseas, just like others who were not Americans. John Walker Lind, however was captured and sentenced. Ruby Ridge and Waco both occurred before 9/11. I am unaware of any american citizens being tortured. And other than a few forign individuals who were involved with 9/11 being water boarded, on several occasions, I am unaware of any systematic use of torture. Terrorists captured on the battlefield (Getmo) are outside the preview of american jurisprudence. The abolition of firearms, I agree, is of course one of the first goals of fascism. The Puerto Rican terrorists who set off bombs and killed people, were pardoned by Bill Clinton. Kathy Boudin, who was the getaway driver for a Weather Underground bank robbery, in which a bank guard was murdered, is now a college professor. Angela Davis, former Black Panther, and former president of the American Communist Party, who procured the firearms used to murder a judge in the Soledad Prison affair, is a college professor. Bill Ayers is a retired college professor who formerly led the Weather Underground, planted numerous bombs, in banks, courthouses and police stations, one of which killed a San Francisco police officer. Mr. Ayers was respected enough by the Democrats to have been allowed to host, at his home, Barack Obama's political coming out party. If you want to see the real beginnings of Totalitarian Fascism, look to the hate speech laws and speech codes like we see in the UK, Canada, and American Universities. Also look to Government Employee SEIU union thugs assaulting people.--As a general matter, Totalitarian Fascists are not in favor of lower taxes, smaller government, the right to bear arms, and amending the Constitution by judicial fiat. If you keep giving the Government a bigger and bigger percentage of the GNP and more and more power, do not be surprised when the Rulers end up being people you do not like. Hitler came to power, in large part because a lot of people, who did not support him, the Communists, the Socialists and others, nonetheless wanted to destroy the, Wiemar Republic. And so they got more than the bargained for. As did the majority of Russians who were not Bolsheviks. I agree that the war on terror needs to be dialed way back and targeted narrowly on high threat profile individuals and groups. When the KKK was blowing up black children, we did not go around investigating Elderly Black Church Ladies, at least I hope we did not.P.S. I do not know what our host and the administrators are doing, but they are doing it well. There is profound disagreement but relatively little personal insult and profane disgusting diatribe. My compliments. Keep up the good work, but keep that big effing stick handy."During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act."Eric Arthur Blair - George Orwell 1903 -1950Best RegardsClear Ether

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2013, 12:21:42 pm
content: My father was pulled over in Sweden for speeding in a hire car. The policeman asked first for his passport, where he was going then informed him he was speeding and was on the wrong road ( via the radio as the officer did not speak english and my father was very rusty in German ( he last used it 50 years before)) and then proceeded to give him a blue light escort ( at about 100 kph over the stated limit as well) right to his hotel 1 hour away, and never wrote out a ticket at all.

author: SgtRock
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 07, 2013, 03:15:58 pm
content: Greetings EEVBees:--The US Signals Intelligence effort began in ernest about the same time as the transatlantic cable. You will notice that Ft. Meade (the home of NSA) lies between Baltimore and DC. Historically that is because that is a good location to tap into all transatlantic cable traffic coming ashore and headed for embassy row. The British were soon hip to this dodge and hit upon the idea of laying a cable coming ashore at a different point so that it would not be intercepted by the Army. But to no avail, when the cable laying ship reached a point about 50 miles off shore, the Navy showed up and made them drop it. Then for a while the US arranged to have an agent inside all cable offices in the US, so as to provide copies of all traffic. There has been much technical innovation since the early days--Modern technical communications espionage, basically consists of placing a "Y" at critical switch nodes so that all, repeat all, traffic can be duplicated. These nodes consist of an amazingly small number of switch rooms in a very few locations. The only problem, bug, or feature of this setup is that it is all or none. Of minor note are "man in the middle" satellite schemes and ordinary electromagnetic broadcast interception which nowadays comprises only a few percent of the effort. There is no way to tell the software to record only pertinent information. The only way to do it is to record everything and then to go looking for terrorist nexuses based on tips from humint (intelligence information from people), keyword analysis (nuclear weapon, nerve gas, etc.), traffic analysis (repeated packets to known or suspected terrorist addresses). So when the Press go on and on about the size of the program without pointing out this major technical limitation, it can only be regarded as an attempt to deceive. Just like when they report that your gun is more likely to be used against you than a home invader, without telling you these statistics include all suicides, and accidental discharges and do not include any defensive use of the weapon when it is not discharged, is an attempt at deception, otherwise you could say that armed bank robbers almost never use guns, right? Just like when they refer to 17, 18, and 19 year old gangbangers as children, when reporting child firearm casualties, it is an attempt at deception, since statistics for deaths for children under the age of ten, indicate that your swimming pool is much more dangerous to them than your firearm.--As I have said before, only a minuscule number, perhaps 10 of thousands out of quadrillions of messages, are ever looked into, in any depth, or even could be looked into because of the size problem. So there is a possibility of some rogue pervert eavesdropper obtaining titillation by listening in on trash talk. It almost never happens, and is heavily punished when it is, or at least should be, just like passport information, or FBI files. I do not recall any firestorm when the Democrats leaked information from the FBI file of one Mr. Clarence Thomas, in an attempted smear. And when Assange publishes US diplomatic traffic, sometimes endangering covert assets (people), he is cheered, duh. NSA has always had to resist (and as far as I know has been successful) abuse of its information for partisan political purposes. Unlike the FBI, the IRS, the EPA, and Homeland Security, all of which have been used for narrow political considerations at one time or another. Particularly lately with Homeland Security finding Veterans to be possible terrorists threats, and the IRS, singling out groups with "Patriot" in the name, and trying to intimidate the Tea Parties and suppress their fund raising, in order to help Obama defeat Romney.--The UK, Canada, Australia, and New Zealand are routinely given copies of virtually all Sigint (Signals Intelligence), and other European countries and friendlies are informed of actionable intelligence about possible terrorist attacks on timely basis. A number of imminent attacks have been thwarted in the UK, France, Spain, Italy and other countries because of these tips. Like I said, these days it is record everything or record nothing. If you want to install TrueCrypt or PGP and use a strong password, then all the King's horses and all the King's men, nor NSA could break out your clear text in a thousand years. But at the cost of making you seem, perhaps, more interesting. Sho nuff. So please do not have a cow. Just send your government an email saying you do not want it to accept any warnings of terrorist attacks, now matter how grave, if the information comes from any other country but you own.“If people do not believe that mathematics is simple, it is only because they do not realize how complicated life is.”John von Neumann 1903 -1957Best RegardsClear Ether

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 07, 2013, 07:20:29 pm
content: Quote from: SgtRock on July 07, 2013, 08:56:32 am"working with foreign terrorists" is a pretty broad definition, and one that is not subject to any judicial review, and is solely in the opinion of the administration in power. Or course, this same administration also included "military veterans" in their definition of "people we need to keep an eye on". We also killed Abdul Rahman who was the 16 year old child of "Anwar the American" who we killed. Of course, we also killed quite a few women and children during our strikes to kill these guys, but that's OK because they were not AmericansQuoteThey are not, however, outside the purview of the Geneva conventions, which we have violated countless times, not just "a few times". We have tortured hundreds if not thousands of people, and we continue to do so to this very day. As for Americans being tortured, Bradley Manning - the Wikileaks leaker - has been and continues to be tortured.QuoteNone of this has anything to do with the subject at hand.QuoteIt is unlikely the American citizenry will ever get back the freedoms and liberties that were taken away by George W Bush and his administration, and restricted much further under Barack Obama's administration. Ron Paul would have been good, but it's unlikely a libertarian will ever get elected - not in the near future at least. It will take a major world war and death, destruction and mayhem before the average American idiot stops being afraid of "terrorists" and gains a new appreciation for freedom and liberty. Probably not in the next 20 years, but probably within the next 100-200 years. We wont be the most powerful nation forever and when that status disappears, we better hope those that take our place do not treat us the way we treat them... but they probably will.

author: SgtRock
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 07, 2013, 09:28:52 pm
content: Greetings EEVBees:--Au contraire mes amis. The Geneva conventions apply only to uniform wearing members of national armed forces. Their purpose is specifically to keep irregular guerrilla forces from hiding among the civilian populace, in order to keep the civilian populace more safe. Spies, saboteurs, guerillas, and partisans, dressed as civilians, and with no item of military uniform are specifically excepted from the protections of the Conventions. Check any history of WWII; American escapees were often executed by Germans as Spies because they were dressed as civilians. The Americans argued (sometimes successfully) that they were not spies because their escape clothing was made from their military uniforms. This is not an unexplored issue. In other words the conventions explicitly do not apply to terrorists, dressed as civilians in Afghanistan, Pakistan, Djibouti, or Ouagadougou (wagadugu) Burkino Faso. They also require that soccer balls and uniforms be issued. Go figure. So the fellows at Gitmo may, indeed, be getting treatment in accord with the Geneva Conventions but not because they are legitimately entitled to it. The very idea that, somehow, terrorist rabble without uniforms have rights that we must respect, with no reciprocity is ludicrous.--Killing by the use of drones creates collateral casualties, and is indeed regrettable, but these casualties occur at a greatly reduced proportion, compared for instance, to the bombing of German occupying forces in France, or the war in Iraq, for that matter, and is one of the areas where Obama's policies are probably better than those of Bush. So if you are leading strikes against American Soldiers and Marines, you probably should not keep your family with you. The words torture and torturing are repeated ad nauseum, instead of the more direct statement that a few individual murderous terrorists responsible for 9/11, were water boarded on several occasions, leading to the capture and killing of other conspirators immediately after 9/11, is deception. They are hoping that the low information viewer will have visions of fingers and hands being chopped off, and electricity being applied to genitals and other more horrendous cases of torture, like those John Kerry testified to in the fraudulent Winter Soldier road show. The aim is not to inform, but to deceive, and it is working. Some of the members of the very blog have been hoodwinked. I am surprised the Protocols of The Elders of Zion have not been quoted yet.--Do we really need to be worried about pissing of people who hand out candy on 9/11, bomb girl's schools, and gang rape women in the streets of Cairo? Was there ever much chance of us receiving any quarter from these folks? The mention of the Weather Underground and Puerto Rican Separatist bombings was to show the rather limited basis on which the American Left considers terrorism an affront, and in response to the accusation that middle eastern terrorists were being mistreated. The President has never referred to any of these folks as an enemy that need to be punished, as he did with Republicans in his Univision speech. How is that Arab Spring idea working out, by the way?--Can solitary confinement now be redefined, unilaterally, as torture, by Hystrianna Puffington, the Daily Kos (you know the guy that glad to see Americans hung from bridges and set afire. "F**k them" he said) and the UN? I am not so sure. I think I do remember the drill though; Police are Pigs, Soldiers are Baby Killers, and payday is on Friday. Is that correct? With regard to Snowden, and Manning, I cannot see any fair way to only enforce the law against right wingers.“Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American public."H.L. Mencken 1880 - 1956Best RegardsClear Ether

author: staxquad
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2013, 10:52:16 pm
content: good a propos article:The Snowden Affair and the Destruction of Effective Democracy in EuropeThe Servility of the Satellitesby DIANA JOHNSTONEhttp://rinf.com/alt-news/breaking-news/the-servility-of-the-satellites/48036/

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 07, 2013, 11:03:34 pm
content: Quote from: SgtRock on July 07, 2013, 09:28:52 pmNice theory, except the Supreme Court of the USA has already ruled that you are wrong. This line of thinking is also perfectly illustrative of the problem... the USA government believes they can mark anyone as an "enemy combatant", and that person can then be held indefinitely, tortured, with no protections under the law (US or international), no redress, no trial, no prospect of release, ever. If you are OK with that, then you are not a true American.QuoteAnwar al-Awlaki was not leading strikes against American soldiers and marines. He as a PR guy for Al-Q. And his 16 year old son and the son's friends who were killed were certainly not leading strikes against anyone. They were sitting in a cafe when the CIA killed him with a missile from a drone. Don't try to defend the indefensible.QuoteYour definition of torture is irrelevant. There are experts and definitions of torture. The USA tortured people. Not just "a few people" and not just "a few times", but we did it regularly and as a matter of course, and we continue to do it today.QuoteWe have killed countless thousands of innocent women and children in Iraq, Afghanistan and hundreds more in drone strikes. It is easy to demonize them as "people who hand out candy on 9/11", but the bottom line is they are humans who did nothing wrong and whose bodies were dismembered by US missiles while those people were just living their lives in their home country. They committed no crimes, and were killed simply because they got in the way of our objectives.QuoteTorture is well defined. If you are unaware of the definition, there are many resources online to explain what torture is. Yes, we are torturing our own people - including Bradley Manning, an American citizen.

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2013, 11:41:54 pm
content: Quote from: SgtRock on July 07, 2013, 09:28:52 pmYou would be surprised how many of us arenotcomplete idiots, understand what water boarding is, picture exactly that when we hear news of modern U.S. torture, and still think it's an inhumane abomination.What is it with you people? There's a very vocal group of political ranters who are under the impression that everybody on the other side is just an uninformed ignoramus, and if only they had the information that you have.....

author: staxquad
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2013, 12:05:02 am
content: Quote from: ErikTheNorwegian on July 07, 2013, 11:02:02 pmone of the qualifications required to join the FBI, CIA, NSA is to be a sociopathFBI, CIA, NSA, NASA, UN, WTO, WHO are not for the benefit of the population(s), they are tools for the Ruling Elite to keep and expand their power (wealth extraction), which is the reason why they obfuscate everything

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 08, 2013, 12:10:03 am
content: Quote from: c4757p on July 07, 2013, 11:41:54 pmI would challenge anyone who feels waterboarding is not torture to take an easy challenge...-I put up $1,000USD-They let me waterboard them for 30 minutesIf they can do it, they get the $1,000. If they don't, they get nothing. Zero risk to them.I doubt most of us here earn $2,000/hr, so it would be the easiest money ever made.SgtRock, you up for the challenge? After all, it's not torture.. just a little water in the mouth. No chance of death, just minor discomfort.

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2013, 12:16:38 am
content: Quote from: Corporate666 on July 08, 2013, 12:10:03 amExcept being proven wrong, which seems to be much scarier to some people than electric shock to the balls.

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2013, 12:33:17 am
content: Quote from: c4757p on July 07, 2013, 11:41:54 pmYou dang right c4757p! Most of us ain't no dummies an we know rite frum left. I bet any of 'um that got the water bored would be a thinkin twice about torcher.

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2013, 12:38:05 am
content: I'm not sure if that was a sarcastic joke or a sincere joke, but I chuckled either way.

author: staxquad
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2013, 12:47:47 am
content: Quote from: Corporate666 on July 07, 2013, 11:03:34 pmyesThe United States hanged Japanese soldiers for waterboarding American prisoners of war.Good for the Goose, good for the Gander.Human rights applies to all humans, there are no sub categories that are not covered, although the USA does so to facilitate their criminality.In the same way, locals are not sovereign and the US consider themselves sovereign throughout the World, invades any country, and self proclaims it can murder the invaded and occupied, but the invaded and occupied cannot murder the occupiers in defense of their family and land. Patriots defending their country are called terrorists. The USA uses doublespeak and absurdities to overlord.Iraqis were uniformed and suffered torture at the hands of the US military and CIA (Sg Rock's memory is short on Abu Ghraib)Basically, the USA are lawless rogue nation.not so benign (wiki def)"Waterboardingis a form of torture in which water is poured over cloth covering the face and breathing passages of an immobilized captive, causing the individual to experience the sensation of drowning. Waterboarding can cause extreme pain, dry drowning, damage to lungs, brain damage from oxygen deprivation, other physical injuries including broken bones due to struggling against restraints, lasting psychological damage, and death. Adverse physical consequences can manifest themselves months after the event, while psychological effects can last for years."

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2013, 12:49:37 am
content: Quote from: staxquad on July 08, 2013, 12:47:47 amAnd staxquad wins! End of argument.

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2013, 12:51:33 am
content: Quote from: c4757p on July 08, 2013, 12:38:05 amIt was 'posed to be cincere.

author: MacAttak
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 08, 2013, 01:58:50 am
content: Quote from: SgtRock on July 07, 2013, 09:28:52 pmI'm going to trust this version of history. It seems a little bit more historically complete and accurate and less biased against the Democrat party...QuoteQuoted fromhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winter_Soldier_InvestigationFeel free to edit and "correct" it with your version, but I'm going to bet that the historians who curate politically-charged entries like that won't take kindly to it.

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2013, 02:09:33 am
content: Talking about "people who hand out candy on 9/11" , am I the only one who feel strange when watching two big tall buildings that were damaged "asymmetrically" still capable of collapsing so perfectly straight vertically down ?I guess I'm one of the minority who ever watched those failed building demolitions that the building tilt to one of the side when collapsing if the beams were not "precisely & symmetrically" destroyed at the same time.Oh yeah, and the WTC Building 7 as well, you don't need to be a building structural expert or demolition engineer to know something "magic" happened at that building.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 08, 2013, 02:12:36 am
content: Sigh, we went there.

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2013, 02:18:49 am
content: It was only a matter of time.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 08, 2013, 02:20:28 am
content: Hey, while we're talking about 9/11 being an inside job, why don't we start talking about chemtrails, and the multiple shooter theory, and oh oh oh how about the fact that all of our leaders are shapeshifting reptiles? And what about the illuminati, and Elvis being still alive, and crop circles being made by misaimed opera singer farts?

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2013, 02:22:46 am
content: Quote from: duskglow on July 08, 2013, 02:20:28 amUh, no... sorry... that was me...

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 08, 2013, 02:33:19 am
content: By the way, I realize that probably sounded snotty, don't take it personally. I have a very low tolerance for conspiracy theories. I'm prepared to accept that maybe the government knew it was going to happen beforehand, maybe (stretching it) they pulled a "let's find some naive kids and push them in the right direction", but anything more than that, to me, is crazy talk. It takes a LOT to coordinate a conspiracy like that, and they can't even keep their classified secrets. Dont you think Snowden would have been all over that if he'd found out anything about it?

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2013, 02:37:29 am
content: The idea that something like that could be kept secret, with the exception of the occasional blithering conspiracy theorist, for as long as it supposedly has been, is absolute horseshit. No need to be subtle. He owes me a new needle for my bullshit meter, it snapped when it hit the peg.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 08, 2013, 02:40:52 am
content: Being a spiritual person, I try (and sometimes fail) to stay on the right side of the line of civility. It's how I try to live my life. As you've seen, there are some things that cause me to lose my shit. Giving people harmful or dangerous advice is one. Certain conspiracy theories are another.But even so, I should not behave like that.

author: warp_foo
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 08, 2013, 02:42:07 am
content: Quote from: c4757p on July 08, 2013, 02:37:29 amAgreed. That a simple robbery at a Washington hotel in 1972 couldn't be kept secret pretty much indicates that a conspiracy of this magnitude is highly improbable.

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2013, 02:45:51 am
content: I try to be kind as often as possible, but I'm not ashamed of the fact that some things make me depart from that. Some things just don't deserve it. I still respect him as a person - we all say stupid things once in a while - but goddamnwas that one smelly bull turd.There are very, very few people I dislike. In fact, if I truly dislike someone, I will rarely bother to tell them I think they've made a stinker.The next time I crap out something like that, feel free to call me out on it.The fact that it was dragged out in an unrelated discussion may have contributed to my slight hostility. It's something I'd be quite willing to discuss at the right time and in the right place. But dude, this ain't it.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 08, 2013, 02:49:15 am
content: c4757p, ditto.I just left another thread on FB because it was turning into a political monster... sigh.

author: staxquad
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2013, 02:56:18 am
content: Quote from: duskglow on July 08, 2013, 02:20:28 amPNAC published articles stating that they needed a Pearl Harbor incident to jump start their full on perpetual imperialism.Cheney and the Energy Task Force had a multitude of secret meetings before 9-11.QuoteCheney placed himself in control on the 9-11 day.7 countries in 5 years to be taken over declared the week laterCheney, PNAC and the Energy Task Force matchesthe motive and the executionnobody else had motives, the lies used by the US Government to blame others didn't pass muster then let alone nowforget about the FBI entrapments or the CIA assets (Chechens) false flag terrorism (Boston and Berg), they pull those out of their asses every time they need some convincing or distractions

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 08, 2013, 02:58:27 am
content: And this thread is now hopelessly derailed, even worse than it was when the first post was made.I don't deny that the government could use it to their own ends, and probably did. I don't think that they orchestrated it.

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2013, 02:59:37 am
content: That's a huge stretch. Unless you claim to know what was said in those meetings, youdon't know, so don't make claims.(Yes, I butchered the structure of that sentence.)Quote from: staxquad on July 08, 2013, 02:56:18 amIn control of what, his sock drawer?QuoteThe Bush administration was full of horrible, evil opportunists. Yep. That doesn't mean 9/11 was an inside job, it just means a bunch of awful bastards took advantage of it.

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2013, 03:02:42 am
content: Quote from: duskglow on July 08, 2013, 02:58:27 amThe unavoidable fate of all threads that begin off topic. It has to have rails to stay on them.

author: staxquad
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2013, 03:06:51 am
content: Quote from: c4757p on July 08, 2013, 02:59:37 amNORAD Ordered to Stand Down on 9/11 by Dick CheneyQuoteI guess you didn't read any PNAC articles before 9-11, what they wanted to do is what they did and still want to do

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2013, 03:14:56 am
content: Searching for that phrase returns a video with an annoying guy ranting and offering no evidence of anything he says, andthis, which does cite its sources, all of which appear to be valid. A few have gone missing at the links given, but a quick search turns up the content on other reputable places.Quote from: staxquad on July 08, 2013, 03:10:27 amJust because you think people wanted to do something doesn't mean they did it.

author: staxquad
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2013, 03:21:43 am
content: Quote from: c4757p on July 08, 2013, 03:14:56 amthe whole crew of NEOCONS co signed every article that you did not read (ignorance is bliss)we need to increase defense spending significantly if we are to carry out our global responsibilities today and modernize our armed forces for the future;we need to strengthen our ties to democratic allies and to challenge regimes hostile to our interests and values;we need to promote the cause of political and economic freedom abroad; we need to accept responsibility for America's unique role in preserving and extending an international order friendly to our security, our prosperity, and our principles.Calls for regime change in Iraq during Clinton years

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2013, 03:22:55 am
content: And how the fuck does that prove 9/11 was an inside job??

author: Stonent
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2013, 03:23:52 am
content: Quote from: warp_foo on July 08, 2013, 02:42:07 amWell you know one President bugs a few rooms in a hotel and even his supporters turn on him. Another bugs the whole country and hit supporters say almost nothing at all.

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2013, 03:26:14 am
content: Just because something appears to be a convenient coincidence doesn't mean it's anything more than exactly that, a convenient coincidence. Do you have anyevidencethat anything was done? Please bring it out, I'd like to see it.Quote from: Stonent on July 08, 2013, 03:23:52 amPeople get sick of being outraged over the same thing over and over. That's different from people being able to keep secrets, though. This would be one big mother of a secret.

author: staxquad
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2013, 03:33:07 am
content: Quote from: c4757p on July 08, 2013, 03:22:55 amThe perpetrators were trained in the USA and had their entry, movement facilitated by American officials, like the underwear and shoe bombers (patsies) had their transit facilitated at the airportsNone of the 9-11 perpetrators were Afghan, or Iraqi, yet the US invaded Afghanistan, then Iraq (and used all kinds of lies to justify both invasions)the 9-11 commission was a whitewash and a stonewallbut then, I can see your point of view that your Government is noble and always tells the truth

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2013, 03:38:09 am
content: Until you can cite your sources I'm just going to assume you're bullshitting. I'm hardly an expert in 9/11 conspiracy theories and the minutiae thereof and can't be expected to know whether anything you said is true, false or misinterpreted. You have so far offered nothing except tenuous connections between people and events and your own opinion as to what those mean.

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2013, 03:46:27 am
content: Quote from: staxquad on July 08, 2013, 03:33:07 amIf you're going to continue ignoring the actual chain of events that took place, and continue asserting that everything you hear is a "lie" without having any evidence to the contrary, than I'm going to continue assuming you don't know what you are talking about.

author: TerminalJack505
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2013, 03:52:23 am
content: Here's a great 9/11 documentary that discusses the PNAC and the military–industrial–congressional complex (as President Dwight Eisenhower originally called it.)Everyone owes it to themselves to watch at least the opening. This is the 1961 farewell address of President Eisenhower. He was essentially warning Americans about exactly what has come to pass with regards to the military industrial complex.

author: warp_foo
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 08, 2013, 03:55:05 am
content: Quote from: Stonent on July 08, 2013, 03:23:52 amThe first guy didn't bug a hotel room, but he did allow/approve a robbery to get information. (He did record everything in the Oval Office...) The second guy, well... He's the second coming, a messiah, the savior, walks on water - apparently. However, like the Who said: Meet the new boss, same as the old boss...We need to broom *all* of these assholes out of office.Shame it's unlikely to happen.m

author: staxquad
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2013, 04:06:23 am
content: Quote from: c4757p on July 08, 2013, 03:46:27 amrepeat: None of the 9-11 perpetrators were Afghan, or Iraqi, yet the US invaded Afghanistan, then Iraq (and used all kinds of lies to justify both invasionstell me what you think you know (which I assume is exactly what your Government has told you) that you pass off as truth

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 08, 2013, 04:16:49 am
content: In a futile attempt to get this on some kind of rails, I just got that 400x64 display working with an arduino mega2560.Timing an LCD like that is awful.

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2013, 04:19:32 am
content: Very little. As I said, I'm not very knowledgeable of this. But I find it very, very hard to believe that a secret like this could be kept for so long. Nobody with any credibility has actually tried to claim this, and it'd be one hell of a conspiracy for every single news source to hide such important information. If you're going to make such an unlikely claim, you'll need more evidence than that to convince me.The U.S. invaded Afghanistan because of connections between Afghanistan and al-Qaeda, which we believed responsible for the attacks. They later claimed responsibility. Knee-jerk reaction? Hell yes. But I see no reason to suspect it's a lie. As I said, theyclaimed responsibility for the attacks.I don't know what to think about the Iraq invasion. I can almost see the claim for ulterior motives there -almost- but that came later.I'm done. Tired as hell. You win, you wore me out.

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2013, 04:20:44 am
content: Quote from: duskglow on July 08, 2013, 04:16:49 amIf by some miracle a derailed train could somehow continue to run on the ground, I suspect it would surely have a spectacular crash if it hit a sudden set of rails placed under it.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 08, 2013, 04:22:42 am
content: Perhaps... but I'll be honest, this discussion is making me just a wee bit uncomfortable. We've been civil so far but I'm not sure how long that's going to last, and I REALLY don't want to see us making enemies of each other. There's a reason these topics aren't usually brought up in a professional environment. So I thought I'd share a "professional" victory in the futile hope that maybe we can start talking about getting LCDs to work with arduinos.Futile, but my heart's in the right place.

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2013, 04:24:43 am
content: I agree, it's time to stop this. I'm through.

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2013, 07:23:43 am
content: Quote from: TerminalJack505 on July 08, 2013, 03:52:23 am+1 , hey Sarge, heavily recommend you to watch this if you haven't.Once anyone watched the video, I strongly believe any human with decency must have a small or even tiny sensation tingling in their heart to somehow justify what Snowden or Manning did for their beloved country.Yes, they're hero to me personally, and imho to their country too, and to the world as well, for sure they're the real villains to their government, big corporations in the industrial military complex, puppets in white house, rats in congress and those dorksin pentagon.Its not hard to imagine if you're one of those Iraqi that had your loved ones innocently killed during the bombing or US war campaigns in that video, and totally understandable if you've decided to join the insurgence movement in Iraq with one purpose only, which is tokill.. err.. I mean to torture & butcher just for fun at any American soldiers also it's allies like British, Australian, Canadian, Polish puppies in there as many as possible for the rest of your life.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 08, 2013, 09:40:07 am
content: 17 pages is too far for this one I think, lock time.