Home Work Bench gear selection help - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / beginners

author: Crytone
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: December 03, 2010, 10:40:44 pm
content: I'm a 3rd year EE student and looking to improve my work bench at home to do more advanced design work and some general tinkering. I've been scouring the forum and Google for days but couldn't find all the answers I wanted.I already own a few basics like breadboards, an Arduino, various resistors/caps/wires/etc and a cheapy DMM but figure it's time for upgrades since I'm going to want the gear for the future anyways and I really do enjoy working with electronics. I'm thinking I'm going to need 3 main upgrades:a DSO, a better DMM and a soldering station.I'm hoping to get gear that will serve me well and at hopefully good prices too, as I am still a student!DSO: The Rigol DS1052E seems to be rather well regarded around here. I'm worried that if I order now I'll likely get the newer revision with the 2.05 firmware making the 100MHz 'hack' not currently possible. It seems like still a very good scope for the price even without the 'hack'. Is this a valid assumption or are there better options out there? I'd really prefer a DSO but will probably get an analog scope when I find one for a decent price locally.DMM: I know Flukes are the way to go but the price is a bit offsetting. I've used Flukes many times- both when I was working and at school. I'm pretty much convinced I want an 87V but a little part of me keeps saying I could maybe get by with using say the UNI-T UT71C, which is only about $105 shipped. Or maybe there's a different DMM out there that would suit my needs better?Soldering Station: I used a Weller WES51 exclusively at my old job and after logging thousands of hours in the years I was there, I can't say I remember it being unreliable, except replacing tips obviously. I was pleased with the performance also. I've never used anything else really but have heard before that other brands (Hakko. etc..) are as good if not better than the Weller. I'm looking for something that's adjustable, easy to get replacement tips and durable. Should I get say a Weller or would something else be better?I'm in Canada too if that helps any decisions and all gear should be good for electronics work. Suggestions on the best places to find gear would be much appreciated also.Thanks for any and all help!-Crytone

author: tyblu
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 03, 2010, 11:24:04 pm
content: Do you have an analog oscilloscope? Everyone needs one as a reality check. You can be assured that no digital tomfoolery has taken place between your probes and the CRT (other than transmission line and loading effects!). You can get a decent old Tek for $100 nowadays. As a DSO, the Rigol is nice but there is serious competition in this low-end; I know only of the Instek, but you should ask yourself what is important to you in a 'scope. Maybe you don't even know, yet, and should wait.The most important thing to me in a DMM is measurement confidence. I think I heard Dave J say this too, and claim he stole it from me instead of the other way around. I trust my Fluke's low frequency voltage measurement accuracy more than any other piece of equipment I have. If something disagrees with it, the Fluke is correct and I calibrate the offending equipment. Of course, this means you have to check the DMM every once in a while, too, where certified calibration or multiple good meters comes into play. If you can trust a DMM beyond reasonable doubt, it is the right one for you.You'll get quite a few different opinions about soldering stations. You'll need two, eventually, anyway, so the first may as well be a low-to-mid-range unit. Digital is nice, as is 120W: this is my current:http://www.cooperhandtools.com/brands/cf_files/model_detail.cfm?upc=037103227867

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 04, 2010, 12:09:38 am
content: if you want a cheap but reasonable DMM get an amprobe AM220 or AM240, not too many bells and whistles but does the job.for soldering depends on what your working on. I have an Antex 12W iron and a range of tips, I can hand solder soic chips with ease but thats my case only yours may be differentI like my rigol but have had it a while now so maybe a better option our there

author: saturation
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 04, 2010, 12:46:52 am
content: If its a DSO specifically, for a home lab and you're in Canada, the Rigol 1052E won't dissapoint, knowing you will be working with frequencies far underneath the scope's bandwidth for some time, for longevity of your purchase, because its a bang for buck. As of this writing, I don't believe there is yet a competitor with the same reputation, e.g. compared against Atten, Uni-T etc.,, or cost effectiveness. Plus, so many have bought it since eevblog exists, its established a reputation, defacto.If I could do it again, I'd get the Instek 1062E only if I could get it or purchased in Canada for the prices as Tequipment.net, its only $15 difference between the two, factoring in Canada's HST or equivalent taxes. That's because I've had the Rigol for over 8 months, but really am not thinking of doing the hack; I simply can't be sure I can trust the unit to function over its lifetime and measure reliably, as tyblu suggests with his Fluke, and do not expect to work in home projects exceeding its bandwidth of 50Mhz. See reviews on the comparing the Instek to the Rigol, and gauge if $15 is worth these differences.Since your in EE, a good analog scope can be had far cheaply in lieu of a DSO, particularly if you can insure its working, so not much extra work to do. If your school dumps any, it can save you dollars, and you'll know enough about gear to be choose them effectively from second hand sources.If you know Fluke's its hard not to use one of equal quality, such as an Agilent or Metrawatt, safety, confidence and reliability is hard to beat. I have 3, one is over 20 years old and never been calibrated; they are all spot on accurate and built like tanks; its something you'll own for a lifetime. Given your foreknowledge in EE, I suggest you look for a second hand one via eBay, you'll spend between $100-200 for a 87 or 85 III to V, both are TRMS while the 85 has no temperature, depending on how well you bid. Avoid the 87I only because its officially not CAT III-1000V rated.I would consider the analog Hakko 936 due to its near industry standard usage; its built like a tank too; and its only now sold in North America. A Weller is just as good, but the real world experience is variable quality and experiences with Weller models, while the real 936 is made in Japan, very consistent quality for over a decade, the tips last far longer, many tips a plenty, and has better heat stability.For Canada, A1 Electronics is one of the best, even better is to be in the retail store and browse. Active Surplus! downtown TO Queens Street, and the various small stores at the Asian Pacifica mall, with really weird fun stuff. Many fled Hongkong in 1999 when it was turned over to PRC, but after the scare now have good ties to PRC to bring in weird electronic devices or parts.http://ourfaves.com/place/519903/active-surplus-electronics-torontohttp://www.a1parts.com/Quote from: Crytone on December 03, 2010, 10:40:44 pm

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 04, 2010, 01:43:45 am
content: you'll definitly need to get a power supply if you dont already have one.something like... 15-0-15V at up to 3A with adjustable current limit.I wouldn't go much less than that. Ya definitly want one with adjustable current limit.

author: Kiriakos-GR
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 04, 2010, 04:17:19 am
content: Quote from: Crytone on December 03, 2010, 10:40:44 pmyour choices are good as selections , about pricing on Canada , you have to wait for an another Canadian to rescue you ..You have allot of time ahead , until to get more "professional" gear ..

author: Crytone
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: December 04, 2010, 07:07:26 am
content: Thanks for all the feedback. Thought I should address some of the comments/questions raised so far.tyblu: I do not own an analog oscilloscope yet, but as I said, I'm looking for one locally first.I agree with wanting DMM confidence which is why I thought Fluke. Used them before in a workplace that required very strict standards (telecom).Simon: Thanks for the Amprobe suggestion- I've used their meters before and can't say I either disliked or liked them. I really liked the Flukes though.saturation: Good suggestions. I'll look into the Instek unit some more. Luckily I don't have to worry about any HST fees and only pay 5% GST in my province.I am looking for an analog scope- I've asked some people I know in the industry and they'll let me know if they find anything locally.Psi: I've been looking to get a new PSU. Found one cheap on Ebay for about $100 that does 0-30V and 0-5A but is of some unknown Chinese make. Think it might be good enough? Suggestions for this might be good too as I currently just use an old computer PSU and regulate voltages from there. Maybe even something with dual outputs?Kiriakos-GR: I understand there's time ahead to get better gear but I like getting good gear to start- saves time and money later on! The DSO I figure I could get something inexpensive that would do what I need it to. Soldering Iron are cheap enough so I might as well get something decent to begin with. The DMMs I'm starting to look at as more of an investment than a tool.So thanks again everyone for the comments and suggestions. As for my experience I know I'm still not a 'pro' yet but I feel confident with using everything and really want to learn more anyways. I do have access to more accurate equipment at a lab about 2 hours away but just need basic stuff for at home use.As for soldering I feel very confident in my abilities. I've done lots of hand soldering of 0603/0805 SMD components, SOIC and even hundreds of TI MSP430's (I'd consider those tricky when you first start working with them, preferred doing these by hand than using a hot air machine and pastes).

author: codeboy2k
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 08, 2010, 10:34:27 am
content: QuoteIf you only buy one PSU, definitely get a dual output one. You will almost always want a second voltage for something, and if you don't have it you'll have to make it using another regulator. Yes, it's simple to do so, but gets tiresome after a while when all you really want is a quick 2nd voltage. Plus, you don't get proper current limiting (even if the first voltage has it, you might want a different limit for the second voltage -- see below).0-30V@0-5A should cover most of what you will ever need for a very long time.An old ATX power supply, as you seem to be using now, won't cut it for any real work.I think you said you post regulate it. The problem is, you will soon find out how easy it is to fry your breadboard and let the smoke out because your PSU doesn't have proper adjustable current limiting. You almost always want to set your current limit really, really low when you first power up a breadboard, and raise it up to your set-point and not allow it to go beyond what you think the maximum current draw should be. This type of current limiting will save your butt (or your breadboard design) many times in the futureFurthermore, a proper PSU will give you real simultaneous voltage and current displays. With your PC power supply, you will need to use a multimeter in the circuit to measure PSU current and voltage. If you only have one DMM, then you have to pull wires and switch volts to amps to make a different reading. And yes, youwillblow your DMM fuse. I've done it twice in my 25 years. Those fuses cost between $20 and $30 bucks up here in Canada.

author: Bored@Work
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 08, 2010, 07:00:47 pm
content: Quote from: codeboy2k on December 08, 2010, 10:34:27 amAn age-old trick: Use a small Ohm / high Wattage resistor in the supply to your circuit. Leave the DMM in voltage mode. Measure the voltage over the resistor. Ohm's Law gives you the current. Change one wire (and the DMM voltage range, if you don't have auto ranging), and measure the supply Voltage. The measurement accuracy is usually acceptable.No need to switch the DMM to current mode at all.

author: Crytone
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: December 09, 2010, 02:52:07 pm
content: Thanks for the replies.I've found an Analog Oscilloscope- a Tektronix 465, which should be a 100MHz 2ch model that supposedly works well. Best thing is it's from a family friend so the price is free! He saved it from when the company he works for was upgrading their equipment a few years back and were "tossing the old units in the trash", as he put it. Happy to get that and should do most things fine. I still want a DSO but no real rush.For the DMM I'm looking online and trying to get the same friend (he has more contacts than myself with equipment vendors) to look around. I might be getting a new Fluke 87V as a Christmas present, if I can find one. I'm also thinking of maybe picking up an older model to use when I want to measure more than 1 measurement at once. Perhaps an older/used 87 would do the job here?As for the soldering iron I'm thinking I will get a Weller unit. A few things helped my decision: 1- hard to find Hakko units or parts in Canada. Everyone carries Weller, even locally if I need a new tip fast. 2- Hakko has discontinued the 936 everywhere but NA, where it'll likely be next. The FX888 is nice but unavailable here currently.For a PSU, I very much understand the importance of having current adjust. I'm a bit leery of ordering some chinese no-name branded PSU though.

author: saturation
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 09, 2010, 04:58:08 pm
content: In reference to bolded statements quoted, comments:Enjoy!The analog should work fine, I own the Rigol only because I couldn't find a decent analog that worked and couldn't establish that it will continue to work even if I got it.Yes, there is no reason an old model, that isn't abused, won't last you a lifetime, since mostly, all 80 series are well made. The Series 1 however, are not officially CAT III-1000V certified unless it says so on the casing, that upgrade happened just before Series 3 came out.If you can't get a hold of Hakko easily in Canada, that's it then, Weller is better for support. Just beware, new Wellers may not be the same in quality as old Wellers. Even if the 936 is discontinued, that's only the analog basestation, the irons and tips are used in other models and are interchangeable. But the 936 setup is a bang for buck compared to most other stations, both from Hakko and others.The FX888 was dissected and reviewed by Dave on eevblog, and it looks decent. But, its not worth paying more than the 936 if the old 936 were available. Its easy to repair if it ever broke as parts are very generic, except for the transformer. But I've yet to hear of the base station failing.An analog PSU is very old technology and has stable clean output; its often one of the first things an enthusiast designs or builds; thus its very easy to repair if you get a Chinese dud, which is often so cheap, you couldn't build it for 1/4 the price of the Mastech units. See user reviews on eevblog. A real issue is getting it in Canada to make it cost effective over what is available to you now, the links I have to Toronto shops have them sold retail or on-line, if you were local you can tested it or return as you see fit. It sounds like you're not in the East coast, so things are a bit different. Just food for thought.Quote from: Crytone on December 09, 2010, 02:52:07 pm

author: Babak Radman
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: December 09, 2010, 07:00:34 pm
content: HiI have similar question ,i'm an Electronic engineer but i graduated many years ago but i have management jobs and away from Electronic , but now i want back to my studies and continue to Master degree and refresh my knowledge , i intend to work and learn Microcontrollers , so i think i will need oscilloscope with 16 channel logic analyzer or you offer separate devices ?which one do you offer me for start ?thankssorry for my poor language

author: DaveW
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2010, 01:00:24 am
content: Personal opinion as always with this kind of question, but from what I've seen until you get up to the several k range, the MSOs aren't as useful as a separate DSO and logic analyser. You really want a big screen to see all the traces, and the lower end scopes simply don't have this... A DSO is really handy when you're doing digital work as you'll be looking at non-repetitive signals. With the logic analyser, you won't often need 16 channels, most of the lower speed stuff, eg. logic level rs232, 485, I2C, SPI, onewire, CAN only use a very small number of lines, and its not often you'll need to look at several at the same time. I think the last time I needed lots of channels was looking at very high speed memory which was running off an FPGA over a parallel connection, but this doesn't come up too often...If you're curious, I use a Rigol DSO at home with a usbee sx and logicport logic analysers which is a fantastic setup. At work I use a MSO7104a for low speed work, which is a pretty typical mixed signal scope, good to use but the screen quickly becomes cluttered,Hope this helps, will be interested to see what setups other people use

author: saturation
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2010, 01:47:47 am
content: This is good to hear Dave, what type of Rigol are you using at home?Can you compare it against the Agilent MSO7104a ? The Agilent was a top line scope, new it ran in the $20,000+ range for the base model.Quote from: DaveW on December 10, 2010, 01:00:24 am

author: DaveW
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2010, 11:45:15 am
content: I'm using the DS1102E (It was only £10 more than the DS1052E), which I have to say compares remarkably well against the agilent scope, for which I (work) paid about £13k for a couple of years ago. In terms of the basic scope functionality such as triggering, they're surprisingly close. The agilent has extra functions like a network connection, VGA out which can be useful. Naturally the bandwidth & sampling rate is far higher on the agilent, and double the channels. I've also noticed the noise floor is much lower on the Agilent.The logic analyser is pretty good, but a bit primitive compared to the PC based ones out there now-can go up to some very high sampling rates though. Overall I'd say the Rigol is amazing value

author: Slobodan
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2010, 11:51:35 am
content: Quote from: Crytone on December 03, 2010, 10:40:44 pmThis is quite a bargain. In the store in Serbia it costs205$.

author: saturation
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2010, 12:25:14 pm
content: Thanks Dave. Its been said here before that the Rigol 1000s series is 'good' but its always been reviewed against a raw test of its 100 Mhz or 50 MHz bandwidth such as a fast rise time, less in terms of real usability. I think yours is the first observational comparison between a $400 1102E and $20,000 scope, that's a 50x price difference, for an Agilent with 10x more bandwidth. If you need bandwidth and features, you've got to get it, and luckily at work expensive gear pays for itself after profits offset your expenses; a little different for home use.I presume you find build quality, ergonomics fairly comparable too?Have you used the FFT in it at all?Thanks for your time and input.Quote from: DaveW on December 10, 2010, 11:45:15 am

author: saturation
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2010, 12:32:57 pm
content: There is a thread here on raw Vdc comparisons of a Uni-T DMM against a Fluke, not the model quoted below though. It includes tear downs too. The published accuracy ratings can be misleading, although in the end, its comes out a decent player.Quote from: Slobodan on December 10, 2010, 11:51:35 am

author: Slobodan
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2010, 01:39:38 pm
content: Can you post a link to that thread?

author: saturation
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2010, 04:17:26 pm
content: Sure, here it is:On Uni-t's reporting of specs:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/index.php?topic=533.msg7695#msg7695Also follow posts by slburris on the thread, who did the measurements.Some open units, and their PCB:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/index.php?topic=533.msg5946#msg5946Quote from: Slobodan on December 10, 2010, 01:39:38 pm

author: Slobodan
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2010, 05:42:01 pm
content: @saturationThank you.

author: DaveW
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2010, 09:04:04 pm
content: Quote from: saturation on December 10, 2010, 12:25:14 pmI'd say on the Rigol you miss some of the usability, just less buttons which means having to go through menus to access common functions such as taking a screenshot. Beyond that it compares very well. I would say that the feel of robustness of the two was comparable, I would say that the layout and design of the Agilent was superior under with the hood, with more screening probably contributing to the lower noise floor, better components with no overclocking and definitely better QA. I haven't used the FFT on either-got spectrum analysers at home and work, but if you're interested can have a play with both when I get a chance