Affordable benchtop DMM with largest digit size for senior user? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: LinuxHata
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 19, 2022, 09:07:18 pm
content: Hello.I searched this forum before posting, and found no results. I have a following task, hoping for your help with it.I want to buy a benchtop DMM for a senior hobbyist, who's eyes aren't that sharp as they were say, 40 years ago. So it should have large, contrasty digits.Main requirements, besides large digits are:1. Manual selection of range and measurement type, no auto-switching.2. 5999 readings at normal speed (3-5 fps) will be enough.3. There's no need for frequency measurement, capacity measurement, logic analyzer, memory recall, relative measurement, peak hold, hot/cold wire finder and so on. Only voltage, current, resistance.4. Price under $200.Based on my research, I see that UNI-T 8802 or 8803 (also known as 802+ and 803+ in some markets) are the best choices for my budget. I also looked at aneng An-888 (one with BT speaker and clock), but it looks like a toy and won't count as an "serious" equipment.Any ideas?Thanks in advance.A

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 19, 2022, 09:30:45 pm
content: Does it have to be a bench meter? The bench meters in that price range are, in essence, repackaged handheld meters anyway. Generally speaking, handheld meters tend to have larger displays.

author: alm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 19, 2022, 09:34:07 pm
content: You're probably looking for new equipment, but if you're open to used, then the Keithley 199 with with its ~1/2" high 7-segment LED display would be my choice. I find this LED display much better in contrast and viewing angle than any LCD. Ranging is either auto or manual, but with push button up/down as opposed to a button for every range. Recently sold units on eBay went for $90-$250.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 19, 2022, 09:48:28 pm
content: Vici VC8145 is also to be considered. Range can be selected manually if you want. The big, backlit LCD display is easy to read and was one of the reasons I bought it (actually 2 of them).

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 19, 2022, 10:09:56 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on May 19, 2022, 09:48:28 pmIt's too bad they can't get around to updating it to USB.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 19, 2022, 10:14:35 pm
content: Quote from: LinuxHata on May 19, 2022, 09:07:18 pmYou probably aren't going to like the rotary knob range selection. If you want new, the previously suggested VC8145 is worth a look. In used, if you can find a Fluke 8840A with the AC option and in good condition with a good display you might like it. However, it is pretty tough to find any deals on those these days.

author: BeBuLamar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 19, 2022, 10:37:34 pm
content: You're asking for large display because your eye sight isn't very good but I found most meters even one with large display have very small label marking on the dial or push buttons. Wouldn't that be a problem?

author: Hexley
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 19, 2022, 10:55:54 pm
content: Another option to consider if used is OK -- an old Fluke 8600A. That will give your friend 4 1/2 digits of bright LEDs. And a very simple user interface - just a row of rugged mechanical push buttons. Each range gets it own push button. Each mode gets its own push button (ACV/DCV/KOHMS/AC MA/DC MA).I see there is one being auctioned for $50 as of this writing. Of course, with gear of that age it is definitely a Caveat Emptor situation.Good luck.

author: Arts
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 20, 2022, 12:52:40 am
content: I like big, bright displays myself.Other than my Nixie tube equipment, I swear by LED displays. I don't know how bad your vision is, but I can still read these from across the shop. Not much need for that though,haha:My bench meters are the Keithley 177 & 179. Both have 0.5" displays, and very little control BS.My portable meters are Simpson 360-2, Simpson 461 & Fluke 8040A. I believe those displays are all 0.43"

author: Caliaxy
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 20, 2022, 12:56:57 am
content: Quote from: LinuxHata on May 19, 2022, 09:07:18 pmNot sure about those particular Uni-T models, but based on my experience with a handheld Uni-T with a similar reverse LCD display, the blue digits on dark background are really hard to read in well lit environments, even indoors. I would avoid them for this reason, unless somebody confirms is not the case here.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 20, 2022, 01:00:12 am
content: Quote from: BeBuLamar on May 19, 2022, 10:37:34 pmNot if it's plainly clear which measurement mode you're in.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 20, 2022, 01:25:57 am
content: how bout that new owon machine ? xdm1041

author: LinuxHata
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 20, 2022, 05:23:53 am
content: Thanks everyone!I'm planning this as a gift to my grandpa, so idea of used equipment is not really nice, imo.He requires rotary knob, because he has nice "finger memory", so can easily remember the positions, without having to look at the tiny labels. So this is why I skipped that Vici/Victor model (which is also auto range). He had something similar, with auto range and buttons (Amprobe, maybe), he didn't liked it, so gave it away.He does not like auto range, so need manual range.The benchtop requirement comes from the smaller work area, so he do not want DMM on it, but prefer to put it in on a shelf behind, so hence the requirement for larger digits.

author: taste_tester
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 20, 2022, 05:30:22 am
content: Quote from: LinuxHata on May 20, 2022, 05:23:53 amthat is quite a lot of requirements for a very niche market with few options (bench DMM)honestly i may suggest to you, to modify a dt830b with a VERY large screen, or even just placed off to the side with a lens trick to magnify it, you can get a usb to high frequency AC inverter cheaply that is powered by 5v or 12v, like lots of usb ones that can power an EL panel, i frequently use those to replace 5v backlite inverters you cant buy new anymore

author: Berni
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 20, 2022, 05:48:34 am
content: I dunno, I would be more exited about getting gifted a 15 year old Keithley 2015 than a brand new Keysight 34460ARotary knobs are not as good as you might think. When they have a lot of positions it can be hard to tell in what position they are without looking at it.Most bench DMMs have a dedicated button for each function so once you get used to it then it becomes even easier to switch modes by muscle memory. If you go for old enough ones they will even have the clunking mechanical selection buttons that stay pressed inside(like on a audio cassette player), so you can see what function is selected. More of my issue with them is that i commonly use 3 different bench DMMs and the buttons are in different spots. The ones this old are also usually manual range too.Trust me anyone who has been in the electronics field for many years has a high level of appreciation for old high quality test gear. The new latest and greatest 3000$ bench DMMs are not really all that much capable than what they made 20 years ago. This is why all my high quality DMMs are old ones. The modern ones i own are mostly the cheep handheld DMMs that i don't need to worry about breaking when working on top of a ladder. More of a issue is that getting your hands on a good old high quality DMM involves a lot more work (looking on auction sites, buying cheep non tested units, potentially having to repair it once it arrives, fixing cosmetic issues etc)

author: LinuxHata
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 20, 2022, 05:49:37 am
content: He does not likes handheld DMMs because they have auto off feature and backlight never stays constantly on. He has PeakMeter PM18C, so he modded it to have backlight to be constantly on, but multimeter still keeps turning itself off. You can disable that feature, but it will beep each 5 minutes thenI checked ebay, Keithley 179 seems to be quite nice thing. But it has red digits, and he hates red color. Considering these are LED, I guess, modern drop-ins, with green or white color, will be available around. But what about other mechanical parts? like push-buttons, are they durable or easy to find and replace?I have another idea. Since I own some amount of IN-12, IN-14, IN-18 nixie tubes (the latest being the largest), technically, if there's a multimeter, which outputs raw digit data, even over serial (but not USB, have not enough programming skills at my side), I can make really huge "display" for it, using these nixie tubes

author: Swainster
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 20, 2022, 06:31:51 am
content: I've got a number of multimeters (unfortunate case of TEA), but I keep a UNI-T 802 almost permanently turned on on my bench. It's manual ranging but that doesn't bother me (however the switch has a lot of positions so not sure how well you'd be able to operate it by "muscle memory". The fact that it's a low cost LCD meter means I can leave it turned on without worrying about "burning" the display or wasting too much energy. Its accuracy is plenty good enough for most purposes (for instance, it has the same low current resolution as my Keithley 2000 or Agilent 34401As)

author: AVGresponding
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 20, 2022, 08:04:37 am
content: How about one of these?

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 20, 2022, 11:35:04 am
content: Maybe one of these:https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005002534314510.htmlApart from very big digits it also has a button on the probe that you can press and it speaks the reading.

author: LinuxHata
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 21, 2022, 05:56:42 am
content: This is not serious and it has no rotary selector.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 21, 2022, 06:12:02 am
content: Why would you want a rotary selector on a bench meter? Push button is so much easier.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 21, 2022, 06:13:20 am
content: Quote from: AVGresponding on May 20, 2022, 08:04:37 amLook at the size of the writing on the rotary selector.

author: mapleLC
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 21, 2022, 06:15:16 am
content: Quote from: BeBuLamar on May 19, 2022, 10:37:34 pmThis was going to be my comment as well. It's not just the readability of the screen. You have to operate the tool as well. I guess the bifocal lenses can solve that.Regarding the meter, there are a lot of quite readable displays out there. Why not choose based on the remaining criteria and then choose the screen you like from those candidates? That would be my suggestion.

author: mapleLC
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 21, 2022, 06:16:28 am
content: Quote from: AVGresponding on May 20, 2022, 08:04:37 amLol, I couldnt have planned the point I just made better.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 21, 2022, 11:10:08 am
content: A nice alternative from the used market would be an HP3466A . Big LED display and a pushbutton for each range / function. OTOH most of these units are decades old.

author: BeBuLamar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 21, 2022, 11:12:56 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on May 21, 2022, 11:10:08 amHow larger is large display? I think the HP3466A is a nice meter but I wouldn't consider its display as large. I think a large display should have something like 1" high digits.

author: AVGresponding
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 21, 2022, 12:30:56 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on May 21, 2022, 06:12:02 amBecause the OP said the person that they are buying the meter for prefers them. I was making a recommendation based on THEIR criteria, not mine.Quote from: Fungus on May 21, 2022, 06:13:20 amThe OP stated the person who will use the meter prefers rotary switches and gets used to the angle so they don't necessarily need to read that, once they are familiar with it.Why do people insist on telling others that the choices they make are wrong, and that they should do ittheirway instead? It's very patronising, bordering on insulting.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 21, 2022, 01:02:00 pm
content: Quote from: BeBuLamar on May 21, 2022, 11:12:56 amIt has a standard 7 segment LED display. Not the tiny, horrible, poorly readable LCD displays that HP used in later models.

author: hexreader
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 21, 2022, 01:08:49 pm
content: Like you, I too have poor vision.My random thoughts are:1) LED displays are far easier to read in all conditions, but sadly LED seems to be a thing of the past. Old equipment may have LEDs, but finding a good one is a lottery.2) Bigger LCD characters help, but are not the ideal. Backlight sometimes help, or sometimes makes contrast even worse.3) If I really, really wanted a clear display: I would connect to PC using RS232 and use a stupidly large font on terminal program. Great for viewing, but more trouble than it is worth for casual use.summary: - LED display is best if you can get it, but I don't know of any modern LED multi-meter.No idea if this helps, but ignore this reply if not

author: AVGresponding
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 21, 2022, 01:14:41 pm
content: Quote from: hexreader on May 21, 2022, 01:08:49 pmHow about VFDs, are they usable? Some modern-ish gear uses these, the HPAK 34401A comes to mind for instance, though I don't know of any with a rotary switch (as regarding the OP's spec).

author: hexreader
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 21, 2022, 01:22:15 pm
content: +1 for VFDVFDs are easy to read with bad eyes.Did not know that modern gear still uses VFD.Beware of old test equipment that may have faded VFDs. OLD Uneven brightness VFD can be confusing.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 21, 2022, 01:25:00 pm
content: VFD displays are typically very small.

author: AVGresponding
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 21, 2022, 01:53:12 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on May 21, 2022, 01:25:00 pmSome are, some aren't, some are in between, YMMV. I suspect the high contrast of LED and VFD types means you can get away with smaller digits than an LCD, and the viewing angle will be better, though that may not be an issue depending on your bench setup.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 21, 2022, 02:03:32 pm
content: The speaking display sounds very useful especially if it can just be left on and speaks whenever a new reading is taken. That sounds very useful, actually, because it would let you work uniterrupted, with your hands on the test leads, not meter. Its useful if readings are changing.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 21, 2022, 05:18:16 pm
content: Quote from: cdev on May 21, 2022, 02:03:32 pmi'll do a bob widlar on that : cherrybomb in the speaker ....leaving the probes on the desk picking up noise. zero point zero zero 3 millivolt dc ... minus zero point zero two millivolt dc .. zero point zero nine millivolt dc .. zero point zero five millivolt dc .. minus zero point zero two millivolt dc ..i'd take it out back and fling it at the 10 kilovolt line passing behind my property ...

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 21, 2022, 08:44:30 pm
content: Quote from: AVGresponding on May 21, 2022, 12:30:56 pmBecause sometimes theyarewrong.I was just thinking that an overloaded dial makes no sense if you have bad eyes (that one isn't even color coded) and maybe a speaking meter would be good.

author: BeBuLamar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 21, 2022, 09:03:59 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on May 21, 2022, 01:02:00 pmYes 7 segment and good contrast but small. The original poster want larger display. Personally I don't need large display but rather have high contrast display so even large LCD isn't as good as small LED or VFD. But the OP said he wanted large display and there are many meter with display much larger and cheap. But I still don't see one that meet all the OP requirements. someone suggested talking meter for for a measurement that is changing I think I would smash such a meter. When the reading is changing voice would be way too slow.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 21, 2022, 10:23:45 pm
content: Quote from: BeBuLamar on May 21, 2022, 09:03:59 pmYou don'thaveto use it. It has a screen to look at, too. It only talks when you press a button.

author: LinuxHata
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2022, 08:44:12 pm
content: Well, he's vision is not that bad - he can read 1206 markings without glasses, but at far distances he has to use them. He tried to use these "adaptive" glasses, but can't get comfortable with them, so he prefers to work in "near field" without glasses, and only use them while driving, etc.For the meter issues, I've conducted an experiment, took different size 7 segment led indicators, turned them on, and placed at a distance, where he plans to place the multimeter. With green 7 segment indicators, he was comfortable with sizes starting at 0.8 inches, with red, he needed 1 or 1.2 inches.As I noted above, I might be picking some "old school" DMM with LED display, and fitting them with modern, larger LED displays. I checked some Keithley DMM circuits and they use DS75492 IC as LED driver. It can deliver up to 50mA, which in terms of modern LEDs mean insanely bright, up to 4-5 inch size, 7 segment LED displaysSo this might be an interesting solution for the issue, but what should be checked in these ancient multimeters, in terms of possible service needs? like switches, knobs, etc....

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2022, 10:31:34 pm
content: Quote from: LinuxHata on May 20, 2022, 05:23:53 amI’m sorry, that’s just stupid. Not to mention that every auto ranging bench meter (and halfway decent handheld) allows manual ranging, too.So lemme get this straight: you want a bench DMM with rotary knob (something no serious test gear manufacturer has ever made, as far as I know) because of… something. Manual ranging because of… something. But without red digits… (To answer your question: you might be able to get away with installing green LED displays, but white — aside from being comparatively hard to find — probably won’t work because they require significantly higher voltages than red or green. Some designs might be able to be modified, others won’t.)You realize this is a fairly tall order? The only things that meet these criteria are the crappy, overpriced no-name brands which take some low-end handheld meter and repackage it in a bench enclosure. The anti-curmudgeondom advocate in me suspects nothing you choose will result in satisfaction anyway.

author: mapleLC
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2022, 10:35:25 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on May 22, 2022, 10:31:34 pmI think he's taking the mickey out of us now.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2022, 11:48:12 pm
content: OK, so he wants a large display, 6,000+ counts, rotary knobs, manual ranging, no fancy features and not red, but nixies might be OK. The meter for him is the Fairchild/SystronDonner 7000A. It does have autoranging as an option if you turn the range knob all the way clockwise, but it is actually an option and can be removed if necessary.

author: ebclr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2022, 02:24:17 am
content: This one for sure will solve the problemYou will be able to see the meter, and the circuit to connect the probes

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2022, 02:35:19 am
content: Quote from: ebclr on May 23, 2022, 02:24:17 amI have one of these; it is incredibly useful.

author: LinuxHata
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2022, 03:49:03 am
content: Well, actually my first post says it all, and I even have a most likely candidate in it - UN-T UT-802+.The question was whenever there are similar/better/etc/ models from other brands?For the bluish digit color, as I understand, it is just LED, and can be replaced by user. Actually, advert of one Chinese store showed this model with orange on black letters.The nixie tube meters are fine, but due to nixie tubes used by clock makers, any such meter will cost you an arm and a leg

author: AVGresponding
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2022, 05:33:20 am
content: Quote from: tooki on May 22, 2022, 10:31:34 pmBoth Fluke and Metrix have made such, as well as that nixie meter bdunham linked.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2022, 05:52:18 am
content: Quote from: AVGresponding on May 23, 2022, 05:33:20 amAny Fluke besides the 37, which is just a handheld meter in a benchish enclosure? (It’s not even mains powered without an accessory, so I don’t really consider it a bench meter.)

author: mapleLC
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2022, 08:40:29 am
content: Quote from: LinuxHata on May 23, 2022, 03:49:03 amLeave your praise for Xi Ping in comments section.

author: precaud
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2022, 01:19:27 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on May 21, 2022, 11:10:08 amThat would be my suggestion as well. I bought one new in '82 and 40 years later it is still my go-to meter. I have no problem reading it from across the bench.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 23, 2022, 01:57:45 pm
content: Quote from: AVGresponding on May 21, 2022, 12:30:56 pmI have to agree very strongly here. The OP is asking for our help to find a product that fitsthe criteriahewasgiven.You want him to give his grandfather something that doesn't fit that criteria. I can just hear it now ..... "Sorry grandpa, I know this doesn't have what you wanted - but I've been told it's better."Sheesh.Convince the grandfather first, if you really want to champion your own opinions. Don't hammer the guy who is trying to find the best fit for the guidelines that have been set down by someone else.The favour being asked here was one of drawing upon the collective experience and knowledge of the membership to, hopefully, produce a short list of products that meet the specifications - not to bully someone into ignoring them.

author: LinuxHata
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2022, 04:55:05 am
content: To sum up, I already ordered UNI-T 802+ yesterday.Also, I ordered used Keithley 179 from ebay, and will upgrade it with larger leds of green or white color, will renovate the enclosure and offer it to grandpa as an alternative - if he likes it, he'll keep it

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2022, 05:28:38 am
content: Scrap the idea of replacing the 179’s displays: the entire front panel is the red transparent plastic, so you’d have to create an entirely new front panel for any color besides red.

author: LinuxHata
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2022, 05:49:20 am
content: Yes, front panel will be replaced too.I have all necessary manufacturing capabilities in-house.