Intern / part timer for Startup (Bay area) - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 30, 2015, 11:21:24 pm
content: I'm helping out a friend of mine.He's looking for an intern / student / part timer fro a startup company.The startup has signed contracts with customers and work is coming in.The company has dedicated firmware writers, mechanical engineers an other staff doing the paperwork and dealing with customers but is lacking a hardware engineer.- define, design and prototype circuits using analog , digital and power electronics.- good soldering skills (0402 and below ! )- familiarity with test equipment such as scopes , logic analysers and other lab equipment.- be able to work from 'napkin sketch' to working hardware- familiarity with things like cypress PSOC ,FPGA , programable analog devices like Silego are a +- Familiarity with Altium a +The startup runs out of Techshop so you have access to all kinds of fancy equipment such as lasercutters, 3d printers, lathes, shopbots , waterjets. Full membership included.This is a position for someone interested in learning and applying practical skills.Warning : this IS a startup and hopefully you know what that means.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2015, 12:25:54 am
content: Given the cost of living in the Bay Area, what's the salary they're offering? (Just out of interest -- too far for me!)Google pays most of their programmers ~$150k, just because living in SF is so damn expensive.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2015, 08:01:54 pm
content: you didn't read the last line did you ?Stock and experience plus the ability to work on some really cool stuff .He has the contracts but needs to build the first devices to establish the cashflow.This is a startup.how does this sound to you :contactless position sensing down to the micrometerdetecting what material you re being pointed at without touching it.detecting a finger's position on a plate with no vision or light involved. and no it's not capsense either this works through a steel plate.smart sensorsmesh networks

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2015, 08:11:15 pm
content: Quote from: free_electron on January 31, 2015, 08:01:54 pmI could use it for the bed leveling of my 3D printer. The sensor need to be above the nozzle level and thus contact lesssensor has an advantage. Some rely on steel bed, mine is made of glass so no good solution yet.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2015, 08:21:49 pm
content: It sounds exactly like, "we won't pay you and maybe this will pay off, good luck on paying rent. Oh and here are some stocks which may or may not be worth anything later but right now it doesn't matter."It's complete crap to say interns shouldn't be paid or have very low pay. Whoever thought of that should be hung, drawn and quartered. And it prioritizes those who can afford to lose money - i.e. rich kids - over those who probably legitimately need the connections and work experience.I mean, even in the UK, I wouldn't be able to live on a salary-free position for less than a year, the student loan wouldn't even cover rent for a shared house (I pay £3300 a year, my student loan is £3050.)I can't even imagine how that would be in somewhere like SF where rent and living expenses could be easily $30k to $40k per year for a single bedroom.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2015, 08:30:24 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on January 31, 2015, 08:21:49 pmThat's an early stage startup and it comes with full disclosure so sounds 100% legit to me. People are free take it or leave it.

author: dr.diesel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2015, 10:32:05 pm
content: A bored retired guy, college kid with parents that already bankroll him? No harm in asking, might find someone willing to gamble on the chance of a big win.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2015, 10:59:27 pm
content: The problem I have with these positions is they really only help those who can afford not to earn a salary for a year. That's mainly students with wealthy parents or someone who already has the experience they need and is in a salaried position. Certainly, I couldn't afford to lose $40,000+ in living expenses in one year.I'm not against paying interns less - they're less experienced, and the company is offering valuable training. But to offer nothing or so little, especially given the contribution and work that many interns (there are exceptions...) bring to a company, is just downright wrong. It's got to such a point now that the university I'm at has said that they will not advertise or help students find salary free positions because they consider them a negative. It's not worth it for the experience in other words, you'd do better waiting until graduation and getting a position then even though your expected salary will likely be less due to less experience on your CV.I work as an intern/undergrad engineer and get £15kGBP per year. That's not much for an engineer but it is a lot for a student, and with total outgoings <£5k/year, it makes working quite attractive.

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2015, 11:15:56 pm
content: There are plenty of people working in the SF bay area earning minimum wage and they manage just fine.Most people right out of school don't need a high salary and stock/opportunity to make it big might be worth it for them because they still don't have dependents and associated expenses.There is an age group that this fits perfectly and it's not the first or last time this will happen. Some companies make it some others don't but if this one takes off and you get even a fraction of a percent of the company stock at pennies to the dollar to begin with, you just have to work hard so by the time you are vested and if the company is doing good then you'll get your rewards.As for the salary, on startup companies you do get raises and you will end up earning a competitive salary, specially once you are vested.

author: djacobow
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2015, 11:53:40 pm
content: Quote from: miguelvp on January 31, 2015, 11:15:56 pmUh huh, for certain definitions of "SF bay area" and "manage just fine."This job posting is sketchy to me not because it doesn't pay or does not pay well, but because it demands high-end skills ("be able to work from 'napkin sketch' to working hardware") from an intern. The fact that they appear to be making hardware but are lacking a "hardware engineer" is also suspicious. It could all be legit; the writeup could be worse than the reality, but the writeup /is/ indeed sketchy.I've worked for plenty of startups and their access to cash and compensation philosophy has varied a lot, so I guess I don't "know what that means" if you can't be bothered to spell it out.It is reasonable to work for below-market salary in order to earn equity. In fact, it's a given. But zero is a big red flag. Folks with good ideas are usually able to raise enough cash to pay their employees grocery money. On the other hand, FE's description doesn't say zero, I guess that was inferred by others.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2015, 12:13:17 am
content: Quote from: tom66 on January 31, 2015, 10:59:27 pmThen don't apply. Not every job should be a good fit for every person.

author: KJDS
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2015, 12:31:36 am
content: I can see value in an intern position where you get to sit at the feet of gurus and learn very quickly about the state of the art, but here there's no-one to learn from, plenty of opportunity to royally screw things up and precious little reward.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2015, 12:39:40 am
content: Quote from: zapta on February 01, 2015, 12:13:17 amI was waiting for this response, it seems typical of many on this forum. I suppose you probably advocate against minimum wages because those interfere with your belief in the free market being this all-perfect entity if everyone would just stop fiddling with it. I am not going to apply for this job. I just disagree with this policy that many companies have of not paying interns.This makes these jobs inaccessible to those who would really benefit from the experience and contacts gained. Those who can afford to do this, will probably manage on their own anyway. So it really is just a way to get some engineering done, for free.This reminds me a lot of a personal friend I had, who I no longer associate with. I did some EEng work for him initially, purely on a friendly basis, as a one off. He then comes back to me a year later and asks for me to develop a much more complicated project. Will he pay me for it? No, he offers a share of the business - a business that does not exist, has no tangible assets, and has not released a project, but has a "really cool idea" that will "totally pay off in the end." He made all these bold claims, and said he had invested thousands into the idea, but would not pay me for my work in advance. If someone truly believes so much in their idea, they need to be able to back this up, by paying the engineer, not transferring that risk on to uninterested parties.Obviously, the startup has funding. It has contracts. So it is NOT too much to ask them to pay someone for fair work done.

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2015, 01:03:25 am
content: So there is no defined pay, but surely there is some pay, can't be all stock.I worked for many startups, but they did pay competitive salaries, maybe not as high as their competition but that's when the stock comes in handy. Usually the stock is priced and given before any investor offering, so you are at the base level at costs of just pennies per option. So by the time they make offerings to investors you are already ahead dollars per option, although not vested.Vesting takes different amount of times depending on the what is agreed upon, 3 years is common.No taxes are applied until you sell the stock, and you do have to pay to purchase your options, but since usually are pennies per option your broker will take care of it. Say you have 100,000 options at 5 cents (not uncommon if you are there at the beginning and the original options were 50,000 at 10 cents each but then they split so now you have double the options at half the price because your offering can't be diluted). it will cost you $5000 to exercise your options, but if the current offering is say $3, you can exercise 1667 options paying $83.35 and then use that stock in exchange for the rest.Sometimes you need a stock broker or a bank to borrow to purchase it, but well you get the gist.Now, say it really takes off and they reach an IPO, then you are dealing on the tens of dollars per option. Then it gets complicated if you are one of the founders and you have a lot of options, it's not like once the offering concludes you can cash out, usually you are forbidden to sell your stock for months or maybe even one year.An alternative is to sell them to your company before the IPO if they do have the cash to buy you out.But be aware that once you exercise them, it's capital gain, so you have to pay taxes. It does get complicatedEdit: If it's a lot of stock, is worth hiring a stock broker so they can take care of what you need to pay the IRS etc.. (there are penalties if you don't contribute within the quarter and wait until tax day for such amounts)

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2015, 01:18:25 am
content: If, there is no pay involve and they are looking for founders that is a different thing, but since you will have a voice in the Board of Directors, if any money is distributed to pay any of the original founders, you will get paid as well.If you are getting no pay, don't sign your representation to the Board, attend it and listen, no need to actually say anything but be present to make sure things are on the open up.Even the original people are going to need income, so they can't exclude your income.Edit: but I've never been on a Startup that didn't pay income even as a founder. I've never heard of such a thing but it might exist. I don't think I would have joined if that was the case.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2015, 01:51:37 am
content: Quote from: free_electron on January 30, 2015, 11:21:24 pmI don't really see how an intern could have enough knowledge or experience to do all these things. For an intern you need to pick a specific project for them to work on, define it very well, and be prepared to given them on-the-job training in how to do what you need.Also, if it's the bay area, what dumb idiot would locate a start-up there? (Unless they have mega-millions in funding.) People don't get out of bed in that location for less than $200k. The place is over-inflated beyond belief.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2015, 02:14:31 am
content: why does stuff like this always end up misunderstood, twisted, contorted and completely pulled out of context.This is a startup. You do need to understand the startup scene in silicon valley.Startups are launched by people who already have some money , have an idea, and are willing to work together launching a company that will build a product flog it and hope to be succesful.I called it an 'intern' as we may attract a student . we had two of them last year for the mechanical side of the work that were really good.But i should have said : someone who has a full time job that pays the bills and just wants to do something fun with the potential of a big cashout on the side. (beats playing minecraft out of boredom)Everyone in the company ( there is seven of us, and yes, i am one of the founders, ) puts in his time to get the show on the road. We get no monetary reward other than shares and 'perks' like all the devkits, demo boards samples we can shake a stick at, some really cool stuff from really big boys who have an interest in our technology. Free membership at techshop ( worth over 1000$ a year) so you get to play with lasercutters, 3dprinters (and not the makerbot junk , we're talking Stratasys machines...), waterjets, 3d milling machines, lathes and all other equipment techshop has to offer. Access to all kinds of really advanced software like all stuff from Autodesk , Solidworks and more.The company is incorporated and we have an operating budget . We buy parts , have circuit boards made and assembled.Everyone in the company so far has 20+ years 'real life' experience. We got people that come from very large companies.That is an early startup. no dillydallying around it. It is what it is.Right now the workload on the hardware side is ramping up. We got the first prototypes in. they need testing. we need to build test fixtures. The mechanical engineer has already done all the drawings and we are milling and lasercutting parts as we speak. we simply need an additional person willing to help out and assemble the things. Test them and collect data.We have prototype circuits that need building , checking out , characterizing and analyzed.This is NOT a full time job , nor is it something you can live off off. But if you have a fulll-time job, and are bored playing playing minecraft and making an LED blink, and you have an interest and some spare time : this could be lucrative. So, if you are interested in a Techshop membership , shares in a startup and learning hands-on stuff and are willing to put in some time : we have an opening.If we pull it off this may become very lucrative.We have multiple signed contracts with 'big boys' that want our services.We are not too demanding:- Being able to take some measurements with multimeters and a scope.- Experience with SPI and i2c , can, modbus and rs485 a +. you will help the firmware guys bringing the hardware to life. They may tell you : we don't get an AC from the position sensor. can you scope the bus and see what is going on ?- can you swap this part on this board for a different value- can you hot wire this devboard into our platforms spi bus ?- can you characterize this sensorhead and see how to optimize this capacitor for maximum sensitivity.- here is a list of parts. we need to place an order for 10.000 boards. (yes, we are in that stage ... ) see what is available at digikey and mouser, find the cheapest of the two. i expect you to know the difference between an x7r and npo cap so we don't end up with wrong parts. And to know the difference between -CT and -TR. The previous dolt order 500 times strips of 10 resistors eachbecause i had given him the -CT number (hey , for prototypes we bought 10 resistors , so i told him : order parts for 500.. so he simply copied the ordering codes and slapped 500 before them... i expect you to have a minimum of braincells to be able to take the prototype BOM and be able to convert it into an order for volume, and that includes finding the cheapest 10K 0402 5% on reels as opposed to the part number we used in prototyping. it also involves you figuring out if we need 7000 of something if we buy two reels of 5000 from x , or a reel of 10000 from y, because it is cheaper in the end. that kind of stuff. It;s not rocket surgery but it does require an understanding of electronics components to know what you can substitute and what not. We don't have time for handholding on that. you should already know that.. Another time he ordered 10 digireels of 25 led's each... needless to say he was shown the door)- we may ask you to optimize the bom : like find the cheapest 1k 0402 1% resistor in volumes of 5000 and order that oneor search for cheaper parts for things like a battery holder. or take a schematic and 'weed out' values. like having a 4k7 and a 10k pull up. -> they are pull ups : consolidate to 1 value so we can get the volume up and cost down. weeding out a reference design or schematic and remove the junk we don't need and adapt it to our platform.- can you design some glue logic for this thing and shove it in a CPLD ?- we are looking at using programmable analog parts from Silego for one design . None of us have experience with it. wanna be the spearhead ?That is what we are after. We are not asking that you put in money. only time in exchange for stock (not 'options' : stock) and a fully paid Techshop membership.Once cash starts flowing in (and this will be soon as we just got a signoff on the first project to go production now) there will be pay.Right now, it is only perks. Eventually we will approach investors but right now it is too early. we need a few products in the field to get there.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2015, 02:31:51 am
content: QuoteAnd it sounds like you are involved too?Sounds intriguing.Good luck finding "that someone".Hope it goes well....stuff like this is where all the magic starts.

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2015, 03:05:22 am
content: It might help then to state the participation level in the company as part of the offer.Because the wording doesn't imply that whoever applies would be considered a founder even if not at the same risk level as the ones that up fronted the initial capital it should have a reasonable participation level for no initial pay.But I would assume that would be conveyed in writing once an offer is on the table.BTW good luck, startups are fun.

author: LabSpokane
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2015, 03:45:16 am
content: FreeElectron, you are an unrealistic, opportunist, capitalistic bastard. Damn you and your basement floor opportunity to hell.Power to the Prole! Send the Bourgeoisie to labor and re-education camps! Where's my Ouija board?! I shall summon the spirt of Che Guevara to haunt you and give you improper medical treatment.Holy fuck, people. Get a grip...

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2015, 04:01:39 am
content: Quote from: tom66 on February 01, 2015, 12:39:40 amThat's called trolling.Feel free to create better jobs.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2015, 05:21:13 am
content: This is the second recent job posting thread that generated criticism of the offered compensation and the job requirements. That's not a good way to attract job postings here.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2015, 06:42:42 am
content: Quote from: zapta on February 01, 2015, 05:21:13 amMaybe.But I know of companies that started just like this that are now operating international.Even in this day and age it can be done.

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2015, 06:51:35 am
content: For what is worth, I wasn't criticising.Sounds like a good opportunity as long as the participation (percentage of the total stock) is appropriate to the risk and the offer is written on paper, not verbal promises.Startups are awesome but you have to make sure the t's are crossed and the i's are dotted.Risk must be compensated accordingly with fair participation. I'm not implying this opportunity won't be fair, but not a lot of people have experience with startups.Edit: promises and delay tactics as in "we are waiting for the lawyers to draft the final agreement" that perpetuates for more than three months means it will never be drafted or delivered.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 01, 2015, 07:27:30 am
content: Quote from: tom66 on January 31, 2015, 08:21:49 pmThat's exactly what it is.And to think I copped a lot of flack for offing a similar job, but paying more than I got paid for my first engineering job (adjusted for inflation)QuoteClearly it needs someone who's still living at home.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 01, 2015, 07:31:16 am
content: Quote from: tom66 on January 31, 2015, 10:59:27 pmInteresting.My EEVblog jobs pay more than that in equiv AUD

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 01, 2015, 07:34:15 am
content: Quote from: djacobow on January 31, 2015, 11:53:40 pmThe red flag for me went up they said they don't have a hardware engineer, and then mentioned in tern/student.That's likely not going to end well for the startup, or the student.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 01, 2015, 07:39:09 am
content: Quote from: tom66 on February 01, 2015, 12:39:40 amAgreed.The only time you should be working for free is if you are one of the founders and it's your baby.

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2015, 08:22:29 am
content: It gets more complicated,If you are in a position that has a high pay and high responsibilities I would consult with your HR department about conflict of interests. Working on the side for a startup can have dire consequences even if you are not aware of it, no matter if the startup preceded your current employment.The trend has been for a while that you can't even be part of the board of directors of previous companies or being involved in any way regardless if they are not direct competitors. So being part owner of an external entity is grounds for dismissal if you contribute your time to it in any shape or form. You don't have to let go ownership, but you can't contribute to it.So if you want to do a startup on the side and work for a well established corporation at the same time, make sure it's ok with them. If on the other hand, your company doesn't have such provisions then jump into it if it's worth to you.But any decent size company will have those provisions so mind your steps.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 01, 2015, 09:09:45 am
content: Quote from: free_electron on February 01, 2015, 02:14:31 amProbably because you said the job was for someone else. It's not, it's for a company you founded.Probably because you implied the company has no hardware engineer at all and you were asking for an intern/student to seemingly "do it all"Glad you've cleared all that up.

author: AndyC_772
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2015, 09:21:54 am
content: Quote from: zapta on February 01, 2015, 05:21:13 amIt's a learning experience for us all. Hopefully, in time, some 'best practice' guidelines for posting job ads will emerge.I'm coming round to the belief that job threads should be paid-for, made sticky for a period of time, and locked. If you want to discuss a job, PM the owner. If you want to discuss it in public, then go right ahead and start another thread.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 01, 2015, 09:35:20 am
content: Quote from: AndyC_772 on February 01, 2015, 09:21:54 amQuite frankly there was nothing wrong with my job ad, apart from me beingtoo honestand saying the job probably doesn't pay much. i.e. don't get your hopes up that it's engineer level wages for a student/hobbyist level position.Of course every Tom, Dick and Harry took that to meant I was paying practically nothingOf course if I had put nothing for the salary then I would have been criticised for that. And if I did put the salary then it would have been analysed and compared to death. It's unwinnable.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2015, 12:07:18 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on February 01, 2015, 09:35:20 amAndy c also had a job posting recently that got criticized for the education requirements. It's a tough crowd.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2015, 02:53:26 pm
content: Well this forum (partly) evolves around tearing things down. That seems to include job-ads

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2015, 04:01:09 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on February 01, 2015, 09:09:45 amTo further clarify : we have hardware engineers . Two of em in fact. What we need is a Third one that will be more of a lab technician.And yes, you are considered one of the founders. There is a lump of shares set aside to hand out as we attract more people. The volume depends on the position so dont expect it to be 1/n where n is the number of people in the company. That is not how it works. The shares are also contingent on staying for a few years. They 'vest'. We had one guy pull out after a few months cause he went to work somewhere where there was a conflict of interest so he forfaited...There are risks. We may call it quits at one point, someone may leapfrog us . All you will be out of pocket is time. That is the nature of a startup.If you can't live with that , don't apply.We've had interns from local universities. They joined under a different method : they needed to do an internship anyway and we paid their techshop membership which they like so they can use the machinery for their project work.So , you can come in as an intern , or you can come in as a 'partner'/'founder'/'watchamacallit'

author: ncoonrod14
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2015, 05:49:26 pm
content: My university requires all students to report their wages from any internships related to their field of study taken while enrolled so they can report statistics. Last academic year the average Electrical Engineering major made (including non-paid internships) $22.23/hr and this is in an area with one of the lowest costs of living in the States. Of course if there were statistics on strictly internships with startups the wages would be much lower, but nevertheless if industry is paying $22/hr to students I can't imagine many students being interested. Not to mention the ones with the skills mentioned who are being headhunted by industries and are likely making more than that average. Maybe that opportunity will be great for someone but I'd be surprised if you filled that position easily.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2015, 05:57:13 pm
content: One of the problems I see with these kind of startups is that as a technical person you have no influence on how well your work is marketed. The amount of time spend on development versus marketing is like 100:1 so the marketing guy only looses a little while the people developing the product loose a lot more. I quit getting sucked into these kind of arrangements a long time ago. People with nice ideas often try to lure technical people into building stuff for free so they can just sit on their ass while others do the work and take the risk. Caveat emptor!

author: deephaven
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2015, 06:25:30 pm
content: It always gets me how negative people are when this sort of thing comes up. To me, this is an amazing opportunity for someone. If I lived in the Bay Area (and was a bit younger!), I would be sending Free Electron a PM right now suggesting we meet up for a drink and have a chat. You have a choice, either work for an established company and get paid the going rate, or take a chance and join something exciting. If it all falls flat, well you've used up some of your time - it was a risk and you knew that. But if it takes off, you are now part of something which will be potentially very lucrative. Either way, for an electronics engineer, you've had an interesting time. With FE's credentials, I would say that the venture has a very good chance of being a success so the odds are very much in your favour!

author: Yago
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2015, 07:17:07 pm
content: I would have loved a chance like this when I was a young 'un.Good luck with it FE, hope you find the right candidate, and hope you make a fortune in your venture.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2015, 07:28:06 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on February 01, 2015, 05:57:13 pmIf you perceive that as a problem : do your own startup !It is exactly the reason you mentioned we launched ours. You work in a large corporation and are a 'number' with no say in the direction or roadmap of the company. if it goes sour you get laid off. if it goes extremely well you still won't get a bonus or pay raise , only the top boss gets another jaguar and another tennis court or swimming pool..

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2015, 07:57:48 pm
content: Quote from: free_electron on February 01, 2015, 07:28:06 pmI've been down the 'startup road' before and learned that a good startup has enough money to offer people a decent pay so they can hire top-notch engineers in order to get the product on the market ASAP. If your startup is appearantly missing seed money then other people (not sitting on a pink cloud) appearantly have a hard time believing it will succeed.As an engineer you'll just have to live with the fact other people make more money from your work than you do. Engineers are typically bad at turning an idea into a commercial success. OTOH a good engineer always has a job.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2015, 08:27:40 pm
content: Quote from: free_electron on February 01, 2015, 07:28:06 pmVery well said. People are complaining because others don't create good enough jobs for them.I was involved in startups and know how tough it is. When I drive in Silicon Valley and see those high tech corporation buildings (large and small) I have a lot of appreciation for the people that created those companies and the huge payrolls needed to populate those building.Wish you well with your endeavor.

author: george graves
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2015, 09:10:34 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on February 01, 2015, 09:35:20 amIt sure sounded that way!If this start up wants Mommy and Daddy to pay the rent, that's fine. But the employee they are likely to get might not be what they really want. Not all the time, but sometimes that type of person will be use to having things handed to them on a silver platter. Not always the funnest person to work around.

author: MacAttak
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 01, 2015, 10:02:33 pm
content: What you are describing sounds more like "moonlighting for a startup" to me, which is quite common. Not only in SV but also over here in the "silicon valley of the southeast".Startups are a great experience, even if they fail. IMO everyone who is in the younger years of their life should participate in at least one or two. The experience is worth far more than any of the stock or options (that almost always end up worthless). I've been involved in three startup situations before, and consulted for dozens more. Much easier to do when you are young, single, no kids, no big bills, etc.But it's not an internship. I've done that too - and it really can help a student break into a field that values experience as much (or more) than a diploma. Internship is just a way to give someone valuable field experience without having to pay market rates for them. Often at the very same company that they hope to work for as a normal hire after completing school.Startup moonlighting would typically not include any pay at first - in exchange for partial ownership - while interning does pay (poorly) and offers no ownership.My biggest concern if I was an interested person would be how quickly it seems like the previous people have been "fired" for making mistakes. In your example the guy ordered the wrong part from digikey, wasting 250 LEDs. Even if they were a dollar each, you're saying you fired someone for a $250 mistake that easily could be made by anybody. That's petty, and I doubt I'd want to put my time on the line knowing that if I sneeze wrong I'd likely get fired with nothing to show for it.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2015, 05:51:04 am
content: Quote from: MacAttak on February 01, 2015, 10:02:33 pmWe didn't really 'fire' that guy . we thanked him for services at the end of the internship and that was it. and the total cost of the 'mistake' was closer like 1K$ ... becasue those little strips were unusable to be loaded on the pick and place. it was led's, cap's , resistors, the whole bom was ordered as strips of 10 or digireels ( a bloody digireel costs 7$ in 'handling' so ordering 25 digireels with 100 resistors each costs 25 times more than the whole reel of 5000 to begin with !you don't need a lot of braincells to order parts and figure out what is most cost-effective. if you can't do that : you shouldn't be playing with electronic components...

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2015, 10:38:24 am
content: Maybe you should have told him that as part of a work instruction. Not telling a total newby how to do a certain job is -to say the least- not smart. I managed a whole bunch of interns in the past but I always gave them guidance on how to do their work to avoid these kind of money wasting mistakes. The worst that can happen is that they order stuff on their own (edit: without going through the procurement department) or on the wrong budget. But that is easy to fix.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 02, 2015, 11:08:40 am
content: Quote from: george graves on February 01, 2015, 09:10:34 pmIt sounded whatever you wanted it to sound like.Maybe I should have use wank words like "salary commensurate with competing positions". Of course many people would have taken that to mean "pays bugger-all".

author: Howardlong
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2015, 11:25:13 am
content: Quote from: free_electron on February 02, 2015, 05:51:04 amDid you consider using a third party re-reeling service? I have to do that for one of the devices I use that's only available in tubes. Certainly doesn't cost $1k, more like 1/10th of that.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 02, 2015, 11:27:49 am
content: Quote from: Howardlong on February 02, 2015, 11:25:13 amMy assembler here in Oz has a new machine that can use small strips like that, no need for re-reeling.

author: Howardlong
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2015, 11:42:56 am
content: By the way, I may have missed it, and apologies if I did, but what was the rationale behind saying "I'm helping out a friend of mine" when it would appear it's actually for the OP's startup? I am sure there is a rational explanation, it's just eluding me at the moment.(By the way Dave I know you're busy, but I've sent you a couple of PMs recently to your Eevblog username on the forum that might be to your advantage, not sure if you've seen them).