The $250 electronics lab, a suggested setup for beginners. - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / beginners

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 22, 2013, 08:39:44 am
content: So as an answer to Dave's lab equipment video I thought I would set myself a challenge to make a very useable lab for under $100. Sorry can't be done. So I went for the minimum I would consider as a well equipped enough lab and it can come under $250 delivered to your door!Now I know that there are many people who would not go nearwww.dx.combut I have had only a couple of less than acceptable things from them and they have always compensated for my problems. They sell some relatively good stuff, some OK stuff, and some outright junk. I hope to guide the beginner here to buying a complete lab from at least OK stuff from them. I have not touched everything I am going to list but I am fairly confident that it won't be junk.What is my idea of a minimum lab for a beginner? Well it might be a bit higher than what some people started out with but the price is not that high. If you exclude one of the items that people might not think is necessary, a USB oscilloscope, then you end up with much less than $180 shipped to your door. If you omit the second DMM, then it drops to less than $160 shipped to your door. If you want to drop the USB scope, then that is up to you. I sincerely believe that the second DMM is very much worth having. Here is the list in links to the dx.com listing:http://dx.com//p/128293Uni-T UT136B DMM with capacitance $20.80http://dx.com//p/168367Uni-T UT136C DMM with temperature $21.70http://dx.com//p/1874Kada 936D soldering station $45.70http://dx.com//p/395080-15V variable power supply $43.90http://dx.com//p/107293Helping hands with magnifier $11.60http://dx.com//p/173773Desoldering pump $3.10http://dx.com//p/145819Desoldering wick $2.30http://dx.com//p/46430.6mm solder $9.99http://dx.com//p/19908Flush cutting side cutters $3.39http://dx.com//p/3552Tweezer set $2.32http://dx.com//p/7066Small needle nose pliers $3.03http://dx.com//p/3060131 piece screw driver set $10.14http://dx.com/p/830-point-solderless-breadboard-118354Experimenter breadboard $5.40Total $183.37http://dx.com//p/20107248 MS/s USB oscilloscope $70.70 (optional)Total $254.07>A suggestion from AG6QR, an Elenco power supply kit:http://www.testequipmentdepot.com/elenco/power-supplies/xp720.htmwhich is especially good for those in North America. $50 plus shipping.Now I know this will open a hornet's nest of opinions and comments, but this is what I think a good beginner's lab could use. Keep in mind this is from the viewpoint of a starved student, or a spouse nagged beginner, or a teen spending from an allowance or a part time fast food job. I am sure someone will have a problem with one, or even all of my selections. Too bad! This would make a really useful beginner's setup IMHO. I would have killed for something like this when I was 15. Just don't use the multimeters suggested here in the wall socket.If you are reading this, then you have a computer already to use the USB scope but almost all of the experienced electronics people here started out without an oscilloscope. Having said that an oscilloscope is very useful even if it is a cheapo USB one. I would also strongly push having two meters so you can measure volts and amps at the same time.P.S.This list is not meant to represent the pinnacle of quality. It is a list of useable gear that is available world wide at the same price for everyone, shipped to your door. The power supply and soldering station are for 220VAC.Edit:Added an incredible oversight! I added a solderless breadboard that is an obvious need. It pushes the end price to over $250 by $4, but it is almost necessary.

author: jancumps
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 22, 2013, 09:43:29 am
content: The wick and solder are consumables. You can leave them out and spend 12$ on something else.Creative bookkeeping

author: ElectroIrradiator
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2013, 10:10:04 am
content: *) Scope: Free. Find a working <= 20 MHz dual channel analog oscilloscope, which the owner will give a beginner for free. They are free, because shipping will cost more than selling them online will bring in.*) PSU. I doubt the unit you link will deliver the promised amount of current. The TO-3 pass transistor/IC is mounted on the top of the chassis back, which is unlikely provide enough cooling for that.*) A dual rail PSU is also very handy to a beginner, even early on. For instance they are nearly mandatory, once you start to work with opamps. Yes, you can create a virtual ground, but that just makes things harder for no apparent gain.*) DMM: Two DMM's is way overkill for a beginner. Settle on one model.*) Helping hand: Never had an use for those, way too flimsy for my liking. I use a vice when I need stuff held.

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2013, 10:13:16 am
content: Yeah, don't bother with cheap desoldering wick, its not worth wasting even a cent on.Get chemtronics or one of the other good brands as that stuff actually WORKS

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 22, 2013, 10:19:02 am
content: Maybe the solder and wick aren't "kit" but they would be needed to start. I have no experience with the cheap wick I have listed so I will not vouch for it. As far as dual rail supply for op amps, a couple of 9V batteries work very well and it is very hard to find dual output supplies under $200 themselves.

author: ElectroIrradiator
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2013, 11:01:52 am
content: Quote from: Lightages on July 22, 2013, 10:19:02 amThe catch is that people very quickly tire of buying new batteries, as you really cannot power much from those for very long. So the experimenters end up spending time and effort to 'redesign'/asking for help with the dual rail examples in their books, instead of just building them.I would suggest the PSU should be the crowning jewel in any beginner setup, and yep, it will cost you. Few people, who are experienced enough to ask for a dual rail supply, will be happy with a One Hung Lo design. So the multi rail supplies tend to cost up around $100 per rail, as they actually have to perform to the manufacturer's claims regarding specifications.Find a good dual rail supply to include in the kit, and spend the rest of the budget on cheap sh!t.

author: jancumps
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 22, 2013, 12:36:54 pm
content: Quote from: Lightages on July 22, 2013, 10:19:02 amyes they are needed.But if you count them in, you are out of budget and have to stop.If you don't count them as lab gear you have a small budget of 12$ to spend wildly on fun stuff

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2013, 01:22:04 pm
content: I think that the shopping list is quite realistic.Quote from: ElectroIrradiator on July 22, 2013, 10:10:04 amIf you're lucky. Over here not just a few ebay sellers try to rip you off with 15+ years old Hamegs (HM203 ...).QuoteI'd assume the PSU has to dissipate 20W for the worst case and the metal box isn't that bad. Our beginner could add a heatsink as one of his first projects :-)QuoteIMHO, 15V and 1A is totally fine for a beginner. I've started with the simple PSU I got with the model railway.QuoteMaybe, but a DMM and an AMM would be a nice combination.QuoteThey're quite useful for smaller PCBs.

author: liquibyte
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2013, 02:34:57 pm
content: Please point me in the direction of the person that would give away an o-scope. I consider myself newish on the equipment side and have basically decided the only way I'll ever own one is to try and build it. Same with power supplies. I do have a Craftsman 82139 DMM which seems to work ok fwiw. My soldering iron is a cheap Weller that takes (and eats through rather fast) the MT-1 tips. I also have the required hand tools plus many that aren't. I have found that a nice set of jewelers screwdrivers that can do flathead, phillips, torx, and hex are invaluable for taking things apart. A really good set of wire cutters is essential to me.See, I'm poor but I make due. I have the wonderful state of MA to thank for this because in their infinite wisdom I don't have the required experience to keep my CDL which I've had since 2006 so I can't get work to make money to buy the nice things. I envy those with multiple instruments in excess but I've relegated myself to looking at things and slowly figuring out how they work enough to duplicate them. I actually have a setup that would come in under $100 and it works for me.

author: Kernel
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2013, 03:12:24 pm
content: Wow that website is very Australia friendly, jeez I'm glad I haven't bought anything more than a brand new Atten soldering station from local suppliers and of course solder. Think I'll see what stuff they have for me to kit the rest of myself out with

author: Bored@Work
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2013, 05:09:09 pm
content: Quote from: Lightages on July 22, 2013, 08:39:44 amOf all the *cough* quality *cough* stuff you selected this is probably the worst of the worst. Metal enclosure, but as you can see from the image, no PE connection.http://img.dxcdn.com/productimages/sku_39508_2.jpgI happen to have seen the inside of similar "mobile phone repair" PSUs. They aren't double-isolated, far from it. They need ground.

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 22, 2013, 06:38:20 pm
content: Yes, that power supply is scraping the bottom, but not many choices in that price range. I guess that could be another "first project", to replace the power cable with an earthed version. They are free if you look around and find a discarded appliance some times.As far as quality goes, yes the list includes some questionable things but it is what you get when you have low funds.

author: edavid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2013, 07:06:37 pm
content: I think the UT136B is a good choice, but the second DMM could be a $4 version.The helping hands are probably good for a beginner who might burn him/herself, but they are cheaper on eBay. I think of them as a $3 swap meet item, but I guess they've gone up.What about wire strippers? They are a higher priority than the screwdriver set.A plain soldering iron would be OK to start off.The power supply could be replaced by an ATX supply, or a set of wall warts (2 12V, 1 5V).

author: edavid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2013, 07:09:50 pm
content: Quote from: liquibyte on July 22, 2013, 02:34:57 pmGo directly to craigslist. Post a want ad saying you want to learn electronics and you only have $20 or whatever to spend on a scope.QuoteBut leave this out, no one wants to hear excuses.

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 22, 2013, 07:14:55 pm
content: Quote from: edavid on July 22, 2013, 07:06:37 pmWire strippers are nice to have, but you don't need then. It is easy to strip wires with side cutters or a knife. But why not? Sure throw in a cheapo set of wire strippers if you really want them.

author: AG6QR
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2013, 07:19:26 pm
content: Quote from: Lightages on July 22, 2013, 06:38:20 pmWell, for only a wee bit more, (about $60) you can get the Elenco XP-720K, which has positive and negative variable rails, and a separate fixed 5V rail, a properly earthed line cord, a rugged metal enclosure, and a very detailed construction manual giving the theory of operation. It does lack some common features of a "proper" bench supply (no meters, no adjustable current limit, no voltage adjustment below 1.25V), but if you can live with those limits, I'd have no problem recommending it as a beginner's first kit assembly project.Or if that's beyond your budget, getting a UL-listed DC wall-wart style fixed DC supply and adding a LM-317 based regulator is a safe alternative. There are plenty of sources (Adafruit among them) of kits for the regulator portion, or you can roll your own as a first project in prototype construction techniques. The basic schematic is on the LM317 data sheet.

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 22, 2013, 07:25:25 pm
content: Quote from: AG6QR on July 22, 2013, 07:19:26 pmNow that is a really good alternative to the dx.com PS especially if you are in North America and have 110VAC.http://www.testequipmentdepot.com/elenco/power-supplies/xp720.htm

author: Dave
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2013, 07:30:56 pm
content: I would try to avoid a USB oscilloscope (they are a pain to use) and instead go for a second-hand analog. You can find plenty at HAM fairs or eBay. Just remember, patience is key - if you keep looking for long enough, you will eventually find a good one for a decent price.

author: liquibyte
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2013, 07:35:30 pm
content: Quote from: edavid on July 22, 2013, 07:09:50 pmI think building one would be more rewarding at least as a learning experience though certainly not top of the line.Second point. It's not an excuse, it's the truth. We have one car and there is nothing within walking distance that is hiring. I went to not one but two driving schools and have been driving commercially for six years. The state requires I have two years verifiable employment history plus driving history plus the medical certification to convert my license. This is akin to them refusing you a license because you haven't been driving for two years in their state or working for two years anywhere. I plan on fighting and getting their requirements nullified because unlike your license, mine is a federal document. How would you feel if you moved to another state and they said that they wouldn't convert your license without taking all of the tests again including the road test? See the double standard? I'm not applying for a job with them and their requirements are, in my opinion, illegal.

author: PA4TIM
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2013, 07:42:50 pm
content: PSU: first project, my first was made with a transformer with two outputs and two LM317Wick, have it but almost never use it, Have done many years without it. Used a cheap solder sucker a long time (now a pace desolder station)screwdrivers, important if you do repair, but buy a set of small watch screwdrivers and a cheap bitset to startGood sidecutter, tweezer and plyers are importantScope, my most important piece of kit, I have bought only 3, I have around 15....... So do not say they are not free around. This week I turned an offer for two Free Teks down, asked around, nobody was interested. Now they probably end up scrapped. If I wanted I could have 30 scopes by now. (but the free ones most times need work and often are big or tube equiped. A 50 or 100 MHz is rare, but not impossible (in my case a Tek 465 and 453) Just got a free capacitance Bridge and a Tek spectrum analyser (but needs repair).Solderiron and very good solder: I have some stations but also two very old (>25 year) ESRA 16W irons, they are still in production, tips are for sale (mine still has the firts tips) and they are really great , use them when I need to solder outside my lab and I manage to solder SMD on a groundplane with them with ease. When I started I bought a cheap iron, it sucked, then a second, even worse, then a friend gave me the two Esra. Used them much until I bought a Weller station.Multimeter: yes but a decent (expensive) one or the cheapest one you can get because under 50 bucks the sucks ;-) (go agaid, hang me, I do not care) , current meter, Why ? Just measure the voltdrop over a resistor, the multimeter does it the same way. Buy a 1, 10 and 100 Ohm 1% (power)resistor, put bananabusses on them and mount them on a metal plate or old heatsinkbreadboard ? why ? just learn to solder deadbug

author: liquibyte
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2013, 08:11:00 pm
content: Yeah, I've been cutting my teeth on linear regulators trying to figure out what works best etc. I've built maybe six with the 317, 337, and 350's. I really need to put together a load for testing and have a few in mind. I usually just find junk and salvage what I need and so far it's worked out ok. I suppose I might keep a post going for unwanted used bits on craigslist. I always figured that I wouldn't really need an o-scope until I got to the point of knowing I needed one. So far this hasn't happened and I'm not sure it ever will. I get the usefulness of what they are, I just never saw the need for one other than bragging rights.I have plans for several things that I would like to try just to see if I could. My recent want is to try and build a PD 2020B off of the schematic by getting the bits together a little at a time, kind of a one off clone minus the fancy dials etc. From what I've heard, they seem well built and I'd like to see if that can be replicated.Oh, and I'm not trying to make folks feel sorry for me or anything, just sharing my story. I suppose I'm living proof that you can do much with very little and do it successfully. Soldering iron, $35 multimeter and basic hand tools plus breadboards and perfboard is what I use and I have done many a successful project with just that. It's fun and that's the point I guess.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2013, 10:27:46 pm
content: That crappy little PSU can be had for $26 elsewhere. Almost tempted, but there are nicer looking ones:http://www.ownta.com/index.php?dispatch=products.view&product_id=57416Anyone used that site? Curiously low prices.

author: edavid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2013, 01:13:11 am
content: Quote from: Monkeh on July 22, 2013, 10:27:46 pmNot really. By the time you add shipping, that model is $10 more than on eBay.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2013, 01:14:43 am
content: Quote from: edavid on July 23, 2013, 01:13:11 amAh. The other one had no additional shipping charge. Interesting.http://www.ownta.com/best-1501s-regulated-dc-power-supply.htmlAgain with the tempting at such a low price.

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2013, 03:50:58 am
content: Interesting. $250-$300 is what I ended up spending when I decided to go back to do some EE for fun.For real "limited budget power supply", get a pair of cheap Chinese Boost, Buck, or Boost+Buck board. The 5W-10W Boost+buck with "constant current" is about 8$-$15. The buck-only (2v-25vish) are under $5. The "constant current" has a current limiter. It gives some protection preventing huge current going into the circuit I am playing around with. I have one that is boost only, and one that is boost+buck. I use two separate unearth grounded wall-warts to feed these boards. I choose unearth-grounded wall-warts so the two boards are floating/isolated. I can use them in series to give me +/- supply, or use them separate as two individual power supplies.Not a lot of power at 5-10W, 2.0v to 30v. But enough to test little things and build little projects.

author: TheEternalHermit
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: July 23, 2013, 06:54:13 am
content: I found myself in a similar situation I'm completely new to electronics but did my best to build myself a nice little lab I think I'll be mostly well equipped to be able to start putting some schematics together. I managed to do it for $375.Here's how I spent my money (lot's of luck) prices include shipping, I got it from ebay unless otherwise noted:1. $59 Fluke 177 DMM (used, very worn)2. $66 HP 1741a Oscilloscope(found it locally)3. $48 ECI 20500C PowerSupply4. $30 Yihua Soldering Iron from HobbyKing5. $79 A huge variety of components from Futurelec (caps, resistors, etc.)6. $28 Wire, desoldering wick from Allelectronics.7. $14 10pc set of tips for my soldering iron8. $31 Kester 331 Organic Core Solder 63/37 .015" 1 lb. Spool 24-6337-64229. ~$20 At walmart on needlenose pliers, pliers, wire strippers, tweezers.Longer explanation:1. 59$ shipped for a used Fluke 177 multimeter, it has writing in permanent marker on the sides, and is missing a battery door, but it has probes and works, haven't been able to test the accuracy of it, but what the heck 60 bucks for a fluke!2. I still have to pick it up, but it shows a trace, they said it's working and it came from a college lab, fingers crossed.3. Still has to arrive, but it's a lab power supply, that costed as much to ship as the unit itself, the package weighs 17lbs so this thing must be heavy duty, you can still by a similar model for a similar price (the 20500D) I believe they're still available.See this thread for more info on this obscure unit:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hot-deal-on-a-used-variable-dc-power-supply/4. Didn't want to drop a benjamin on getting a Hakko FX888 or go out of my way to find a used deal, so I went with a Hakko 936 clone. I think it's important to buy a model with readily available tips.5. Here was my exact order, every value pack except the connectors/headers, clips for my leads a couple potentiometers some crystals and a cheap pic chip to mess around with:Qty ItemNumber Unit Price Total Price----------------------------------------------------------1 RES14WPACK 1/4W Resistor Value Pack 2.95 2.951 RES12WPACK 1/2W Resistor Value Pack 4.95 4.951 CERPACK Ceramic Capacitor Value Pack 2.95 2.951 ELEPACK Electrolytic Capacitor Value Pack 3.95 3.951 LEDPACK Led Value Pack 4.95 4.951 LINEARPACK Linear IC Value Pack 5.95 5.951 REGULATORPACK Voltage Regulator Pack 9.95 9.951 DIOPACK Diode Value Pack 2.95 2.951 TRAPACK Transistor Value Pack 4.95 4.951 MYLARPACK Mylar Capacitor Value Pack 3.95 3.951 MULTIPACK Multilayer Ceramic Capacitor Value Pack 3.95 3.951 BREADBRD Breadboard 5.90 5.96 BNNCROSSB Black Crosshole Type Banana Plugs 0.40 2.46 BNNCROSSR Red Crosshole Type Banana Plugs 0.40 2.42 LCROCBL Black Crocodile Clips - Large 0.10 0.22 LCROCRL Red Crocodile Clips - Large 0.10 0.24 MDCROCBL Black Crocodile Clips - Medium 0.05 0.24 MDCROCR Red Crocodile Clips - Medium 0.05 0.24 SMCROCBL Black Crocodile Clips - Small 0.05 0.24 SMCROCR Red Crocodile Clips - Small 0.05 0.22 STPBRD2 Stripboard - Small 0.95 1.92 POT10K 10K Linear Taper Pot 0.55 1.13 CRY20.000 20.000MHz Crystal 0.30 0.93 CRY10.000 10.000MHz Crystal 0.30 0.91 PIC16F684-I/P PIC16F684 Flash 14-pin 3.5kB Microcontroller 1.60 1.6----------------------------------------------------------Sub-Total 69.75Postage 9.00Total 78.756. Wire for leads/breadboard 16 AWG "Auto Zip" stuff was the most economical, this is from AllElectronics.ITEMS ORDEREDSKU Description Qty Price22BL-100S 22 GA BLUE HOOK UP WIRE, SOLID 100' 1 $6.88WRB-16 16 AWG "AUTO ZIP" WIRE 30 $0.40SWK DE-SOLDERING WICK 2 $1.15Order Subtotal: $21.18Shipping & Handling:$7.00Tax: $0.00ESTIMATED TOTAL: $28.18Anyway, sorry for copy pasting my entire orders, but there is just way too much stuff to list. I think for the $375 I spent I'm pretty well equiped, I'll probably pick up a couple microcontroller chips and some programmers and The Art of Electronics book, but for now I think I've got a great start I'm missing a function generator but that one can wait.Am I missing something else, I really don't know what I'm doing here I just went for general purpose equipment. I got the value packs from Futurelec rather than the grab bags from Jameco because the futurelec ones are based on popularity so they're more likely to contain essential parts rather than just a bunch of random leftovers. I'm going to see if someone in one of the labs at my university can at least help me verify the accuracy of my multimeter and possibly my oscilloscope.I know I'm 50% over budget and got deals that most people probably don't have access to but nonetheless I thought I'd share.

author: smashedProton
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2013, 07:03:47 am
content: I don't agree at all with your bill of equipment. Most people already have adequate hand tools. Spend the money to buy a nice multimeter, solder station, and oscilloscope. In that order. And buy parts on the way. Don't blow 100 dollars on dodgy hand tools you will throw away

author: ampdoctor
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2013, 09:01:12 am
content: Quote from: smashedProton on July 23, 2013, 07:03:47 amAbsolutely agree! Two things I would add are a basic function generator and a solder sucker. Not those shoddy bulb things but rather a spring loaded sucker. You can find em for around 10 bucks or so all over the place. Also people need to stop advocating those cheap asian irons. They're epic piles of shit, and you can get a good analog weller station with a few extra tips on fleabay for a song. I've had my station for the better part of 15 years and it hasn't missed a stroke! 15 years from now tell me how well that one hung lo brand you bought is holding up.

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 23, 2013, 09:10:25 am
content: Quote from: smashedProton on July 23, 2013, 07:03:47 amWhen you say "you" I assume you mean me!Well the hand tools I list are more specific to electronics than just general use. As I said:"I am sure someone will have a problem with one, or even all of my selections."

author: ampdoctor
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2013, 09:25:56 am
content: Quote from: Lightages on July 23, 2013, 09:10:25 amPersonally I don't think its a bad list at all. At 250 it's going to be a squeeze and you need to prioritize like crazy! Two cheap meters with competing features as opposed to one freaking expensive one that does it all is smart thinking! Everybody is going to quibble over the details on one level or another but I do think that a function generator or at least something you can use to inject a signal should be on the list...bare bones elenco kits perhaps?

author: ptricks
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2013, 11:09:57 am
content: If I were just starting out I would use a ATX pc supply with some power resistors of 20,40,50,100,200 sizes. The biggest issue with ATX supplies is the lack of current limiting , the resistors in series with the output solve this issue and it is the cheapest way I know of to get a reliable supply with different voltages.Oscilloscopes are nice but you really need a larger budget to get something decent.Instead, get a bus pirate. Bus pirate is a small board that can do decoding of things like i2c, 2wire, one wire, rs232,spi and other things that will be much more useful than an oscilloscope.https://www.adafruit.com/products/237

author: ElectroIrradiator
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2013, 11:29:07 am
content: Quote from: ptricks on July 23, 2013, 11:09:57 amA bus pirate is also utterly, completely yettotallyuseless, if you are at all interested in analog signals.As for using a random ATX PSU for powering low power analog electronics, like a simple radio...

author: ptricks
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2013, 11:40:56 am
content: Quote from: ElectroIrradiator on July 23, 2013, 11:29:07 amA beginner will find more uses for the bus pirate, the type of analog stuff a beginner would need can be done with a cheap multimeter.Simple radios work fine on ATX power supplies and most people have an old one or can find one in the trash.

author: edavid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2013, 03:15:20 pm
content: Quote from: TheEternalHermit on July 23, 2013, 06:54:13 amBe really careful with this... it is not a "no-clean" solder... you *must* wash off all the flux after soldering.

author: mtdoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2013, 06:55:28 pm
content: Good topic and I like your choices. I picked up one of the $18 Uni T 136C as a cheap 4th DMM based on your review and am impressed with its build and accuracy for the price..Quote from: Bored@Work on July 22, 2013, 05:09:09 pmI bought one of these on ebay several months ago to use for breadboarding at my home office desk - when I don't feel like being down in my basement lab where my better PSUs are. At the time it was $34 on ebay (I think they're $37 now). I liked the cheap price point and small footprint. Mine actually came with a 3 prong grounded plug to metal enclosure. It does put out it's rated current at 15 V even a bit beyond - up to 1.3 amps or so before its loud overload alarm comes on and it shuts down. Another nice feature for the price is that it has a built in voltmeter.I'm not saying this is a great PSU but for the price and nice small footprint it fit my need perfectly and the build quality is not terrible..

author: ptricks
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2013, 08:07:20 pm
content: Quote from: mtdoc on July 23, 2013, 06:55:28 pmI always wondered on those units what the purpose of the RF label is ? Are these same chassis used on some other equipment ?

author: retiredcaps
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2013, 09:07:42 pm
content: Quote from: TheEternalHermit on July 23, 2013, 06:54:13 amI thought about bidding on that same auction, but decided to pass. I'm glad someone here got it. For $60 I think you got a decent deal despite its cosmetic appearance.PS. I don't have the skills, but you can make your own battery door. I was going to cut up an old plastic yogurt container as the material for the battery door.

author: TheEternalHermit
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: July 24, 2013, 02:03:44 am
content: Quote from: edavid on July 23, 2013, 03:15:20 pmWhat would you recommend I use to clean off my solders? Alcohol?Quote from: retiredcaps on July 23, 2013, 09:07:42 pmThey sell them for $16 on ebay, but I think I'm going to try and make one when I build a 3d printer. I'm actually thinking I won't have too many uses for a 3d printer besides enclosures for my electronics projects so it's good that I'll have some use for it. It's not that bad without it actually, the stand covers almost the entire exposed area as you can see here. Plus if I take out the probes and hold the multimeter parallel to the ground, the stand doesn't even come out like I'd expect it would so it's not too inconvenient. I just hope that this multimeter is reasonably accurate, that it's rugged enough to endure the abuse. This is not a picture of my multimeter btw.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 24, 2013, 02:13:01 am
content: Quote from: ptricks on July 23, 2013, 11:09:57 amLast I checked, basic electronics learning does still involve the basic analog stuff.Saying that decoding serial protocols is more important than being able to view analog signals on an oscilloscope means that you aren't learning electronics, you are just one of the new arduino generationWell, ok, that's fine if that's just what you want to do, but that thinking IMO does not belong to "setting up a basic electronics lab".#1 - Multimeter#2 - Power Supply#3 - Oscilloscope#4 - Soldering ironA bus pirate would rank somewhere down in the double priority list.

author: edavid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2013, 02:25:34 am
content: Quote from: TheEternalHermit on July 24, 2013, 02:03:44 amI think 331 should be cleaned with hot water, not alcohol.I hate to say this after you spent $31 on it, but it would be a lot easier to just get some rosin core solder.

author: ptricks
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2013, 03:27:41 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on July 24, 2013, 02:13:01 amIt does involve analog stuff, but very little that cannot be done with a good meter. When someone tells me they have little to spend I look for the most bang for the buck, and spending money on an old analog scope just isn't something I would do with that budget.Implying that people who use the arduino are inferior is something I would have hoped would be beneath you, disappointed that it wasn't. That generation may be the engineers of tomorrow and thankfully they are open minded enough to not believe that you have to follow some set path to learn electronics.QuoteI look for what will benefit most with the least spent. If you can get a scope free then great but I wouldn't invest in one when I had little money to spend.

author: ptricks
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2013, 03:33:50 am
content: Quote from: edavid on July 24, 2013, 02:25:34 amYou can use alcohol too but need to be careful that you don't have the rare couple types of plastics that can be damaged from alcohol. The 5% isopropyl stuff is pretty weak .

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2013, 03:40:13 am
content: Quote from: ptricks on July 24, 2013, 03:27:41 amWith intuition, which a beginner has yet to develop. For example - it's really not too hard, especially when you don't know what you're doing, to accidentally set a power supply oscillating. You and I both know that's a potential problem, and know what that looks like on a multimeter. But that's something that must be learned.

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 24, 2013, 04:11:31 am
content: A basic lab for a beginner, as I have intended this, is to ....... begin.....So yes, learning how to make things work usually involves more analog troubleshooting in the beginning than digital. A logic analyzer of any sort will not show you much if a regulator is not working, or an op amp is oscillating, etc....An oscilloscope will show you these things, and will also let you see digital waver forms.And as I said, most people here did much in the beginning of their career without an oscilloscope, so that is why it is optional. With the basics I have listed, a person can make almost any type of signal generation device, sinusoidal, digital or whatever for very little cost.IMHO, with the basic equipment I have listed you can do almost anything with a bit of planning and learning. A logic analyzer is useful if you are going to work in the digital domain on communications busses but it really isn't that necessary. You can actually make a poor man's multichannel digital display adapter for a scope for a few dollars.But as I said, people will have disagreements over my choices, which is fine.To the beginners reading this and wondering what to do with the conflicting opinions:The things I have listed that are not optional, are not optional. A scope will always serve you and you will want/need one in the future. A logic analyzer? Maybe, but you will know if you need one when you need one.

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2013, 04:16:25 am
content: If you're not going to have a scope, I assume you're not going to have a multimeter with a very high AC bandwidth either, so I'll contribute this "test equipment" suggestion to address my comment about oscillating power supplies: a simple, homemade peak detector probe. It doesn't need to be able to pick up very small voltages or extremely high frequency, so a 1N4148 and a good capacitor should do just fine - but assemble it properly in some sort of little enclosure so you have it nearby and convenient when you need it. It's a cheap, quick way to see if something is oscillating when it shouldn't be.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 24, 2013, 05:07:21 am
content: Quote from: ptricks on July 24, 2013, 03:27:41 amRubbish. If you want to learn electronics an oscilloscope is the tool you need to understand what's going on and see what's happening to signals vs time.QuoteYour opinion.My opinion (and that of great many, and dare I say it, the vast majority) is that it is important and would be money well spent.But of course if that person just wants to play around with serial protocols etc and talk to chips and modules, then yes, a bus pirate might be more useful to them to begin with. But that's just setting up a straw man argument.For general electronics education, nothing, absolutely nothing beats an oscilloscope.You are making a blanket recommendation to get a niche piece serial digital electronics troubleshooting gear, and to me that's just poor advice when for almost the same price or a bit more you can likely get an old analog scope that is useful in countless more general applications and will expand the education of and electronics beginner more than any other tool. Heck, because of that I'd recommend they spend half their budget on an old scope if needed.QuoteLets get something straight.Learning arduino is NOT learning electronics. You are learning how to program a microcontroller board and do some software/firmware. This existed long before Arduino came about BTW.Ok, it can be an introduction and stepping stone into electronics for many, and that's great, but once you get beyond the pre-built hardware and software, you will need an oscilloscope. This is as true today as it was back in my first days in the 1970's, and before that.If I had $250 budget setting up a lab, you bet I'd spend $50 of that on an old analog, without hesitation. And I'd recommend that to anyone as a sensible thing to do.QuoteDid I ever say you had to follow some path?No, in fact I said if that's what you want to do, fine.I have said countless times that Ardunio is a good thing as it has gotten a great many people into electronics.I don't care which way you get into electronics, only that you do.

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 24, 2013, 06:14:45 am
content: I should also be clear that my addition to the list of a USB oscilloscope was not necessarily my first choice. I agree that a good used analog scope would probably serve better than the USB scope. The USB scope was included because it is available to everyone, almost anywhere, on the planet. It would serve better than no scope at all and it does have some capabilities that could be useful for logging and other things. If you can find a good used scope for $50 or better for free then yes, get an analog scope.

author: liquibyte
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2013, 07:54:14 am
content: I'll let the experts keep arguing expertise. Let me give you a perspective that might be relevant. I've been interested in electronics my whole life from the time I was around 8 or so. This would be the the year 1976. I used to take apart any kind of device no matter what it was just to see what was inside. Remember when lots and lots of devices had variable caps all over the place? Long years pass and I now consider myself rather proficient with a computer because that's the kinds of things I lucked into and had a knack for. Just recently I got back into the mindset of wanting to learn how things work and more importantly start building my own instead of just looking at all of the bits inside. I have, as stated, the basics. Meter, iron, hand tools, etc. The one thing that I wish I had and could afford is an oscilloscope. You just can't get the same thing with a meter. I know this and I'm not anywhere near knowing what's going on. I can make intuitive guesses and learn what works by reading but I'll bet a scope would be much handier. From my point of view, the importance, in order is: meter, iron, scope. I'm with Dave on this one. I think I'll cash in my penny jar and see what I can get for that little because I'm finding more and more it's something that would probably help me more than I know.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 24, 2013, 08:02:26 am
content: Quote from: liquibyte on July 24, 2013, 07:54:14 amThat's the kicker. Scopes are much cheaper now than they were "back in the day", even accounting for inflation. Heck, it was only 5 years ago or so that digital scopes became affordable under the $1K mark, and hence available to the average hobbyist.Now we take for granted a brand new (relatively) kick arse digital scope for $300.But a 20MHz dual channel analog scope is still as useful now as it was back in the 1980's, but we've kind of become spoiled by the march of digital technology. And it is no exaggeration to say that people simply give these away now.

author: liquibyte
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2013, 08:21:16 am
content: I was reading about these power supplieshttp://www.rako.com/Articles/29.htmland came accross thishttp://www.rako.com/Articles/43.htmlabout the importance of not underestimating the usefulness of an analog scope. That's the one bit of kit I always wanted. From what I've seen, people tend to hoard the old things or turn them into overpriced nostalgia pieces on ebay. I haven't met anyone since the "old" Radio Shack days that shares and swaps. I figured with the abundance of info and hackery out there I could end up building something over time or even using an old smallish tv and getting something rudimentary going. I'm no stranger to a computer and wouldn't be opposed to doing something usb if it weren't for the fact that I don't do windows.I find it odd and sad that the electronics community is still MS centric. If anyone has some junk they want to unload in and around central MA, I'll be glad for the opportunity. Unfortunately I really am poor so I can't afford to pay anything but am a wiz at Linux if you need any advice in that area. I have found that even if people are gifted at electronics like an old friend of mine is, some still aren't that up on the software / os side of things.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 24, 2013, 10:27:34 am
content: Quote from: liquibyte on July 24, 2013, 08:21:16 amNot so, Happens all the time. I've given away a couple of scopes, as have others on this forum and other forums I used to be on.I know someone on this forum just scored a HP mixed signal scope for nix from a generous person.Happens all the time, always has, always will, people just don't ask, or don't ask the right way.

author: ptricks
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2013, 11:29:07 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on July 24, 2013, 05:07:21 amArduino has a lot of the projects that require you to learn analog electronics and people are not just using pre-built hardware and software. There are many that learn analog electronics using the Arduino and similar boards. I was totally against Arduino as a platform to learn the analog side until I spent some time answering questions on their forums and found it is a good way for people to learn analog electronics as well as digital. Questions like 'how to convert a PWM to control a linear regulator', 'how to use opamp to buffer inputs, how to control an external device with mosfet , how to make a battery charging system. All of those are analog related and people are learning electronics while using the boards.QuoteI don't know where you live but you will not find a scope for that price where I live.You are lucky if you can get one for $100 + $50 shipping.

author: ptricks
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2013, 11:36:23 am
content: Quote from: liquibyte on July 24, 2013, 08:21:16 amI can understand your situation as I volunteer to help local people learn electronics and many of them don't have jobs currently or are very low income. I think one of the disadvantages of the USA is that it is a fairly large country and unfortunately things like scopes are heavy and costly to ship so not easy to just give away a scope like you could a meter because the person donating usually isn't local. I realize it isn't ideal but if you really need to use a scope there are the sound card based ones that work okay for some basic stuff. I helped someone capture IR remote patterns using a sound card based scope and the results were actually decent.http://www.zeitnitz.de/Christian/scope_enA simple probe to get started :http://myevilgenie.com/course-set/media/HTML/scope%20probe/Build%20OscilloScope%20Probe.htm

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 24, 2013, 11:51:53 am
content: Quote from: ptricks on July 24, 2013, 11:29:07 amWrong.http://www.ebay.com/itm/EZ-Digital-OS5020-OS-5020-Analog-Dual-Channel-20MHz-Oscilloscope-/360688783474$50, Buy It Now.$43 to ship across the continental US, presumably less the closer you are.Currently $10 + $22 shipping, an excellent scope.http://www.ebay.com/itm/Hitachi-V-212-Oscilloscope-20MHz-2-Channel-CH-/251306310330$89 or near offer with FREE shippinghttp://www.ebay.com/itm/Tested-Working-Hitachi-V-422-Two-Channel-40-MHZ-Oscilloscope-/171080612379Put an ebay watch for analog scopes within XX miles, and then wait, if you don't want to pay any postage.Not hard, took me seconds to find those.

author: ptricks
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2013, 12:14:41 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on July 24, 2013, 11:51:53 amYou couldn't fit any of those in the budget and still have money left for the other stuff.You can find cheap scopes, but under $100 is rare to get something usable. For example the $89 has no probes, puts it over $100 .That scope for $10 will NOT go for $10 . I watch ebay closely for equipment because I teach low income people electronics and it is difficult to find stuff that is fully functional for cheap. Shipping usually kills the deal. I even watch craigslist and classified ads for stuff, sometimes I get lucky but not often.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 24, 2013, 12:38:27 pm
content: Quote from: ptricks on July 24, 2013, 12:14:41 pmWrong. Depends entirely what you value.$150 left can buy you a multimeter, a soldering station, a breadboard, and parts.QuoteWrong again.http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-2-X-100-MHz-Oscilloscope-Scope-Clip-Probes-Probe-Kit-Fast-USA-Ship-/280776029358And that's without Make An Offer. I bet you'd get it for $80. That's $90 total including shipping anywhere in the US + 2 brand new probes.QuoteIt didn't go for $20, TWICE!http://www.ebay.com/itm/Hitachi-V-212-Oscilloscope-20MHz-2-Channel-CH-/350826018629?http://www.ebay.com/itm/Hitachi-V-212-Oscilloscope-20MHz-2-Channel-CH-/251296887258?This one sold for $39:http://www.ebay.com/itm/Hitachi-V-212-20mHz-Analog-Oscilloscope-/15106704598920 bucks:http://www.ebay.com/itm/Hitachi-Oscilloscope-V-302F-30MHz-Denshi-Made-in-Japan-/171037467381And that's just searching for Hitachi scopes!QuoteYou aren't trying hard enough.Don't you think that a 40MHz Hitachi is not worthwhile at (at worst) $99 including new probes?Here is your chance, grab 5 of them!

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2013, 01:18:19 pm
content: Quote from: liquibyte on July 24, 2013, 08:21:16 amI see those totally overpriced scopes over here too. Power sellers are asking for insane prices for 15+ years old scopes. Simple old 2ch 20-40MHz Hamegs as expensive as a brand new 50MHz Rigol (in some cases even more expensive). Luckily there are some private sellers with auctions starting at EUR 1 and ending usually around EUR 70 for a 20MHz Hameg (still no bargain). If you are looking for other T&M stuff you'll see mostly insane prices or if you find something for a reasonable price it's just one step away from the junk yard. The same for old network elements (Cisco and so on). For fun I watched some overpriced stuff for a while. It's like the seller is waiting for someone in hurry to get a specific device or some moron ignorant of price and value.QuoteI'm a Linux user too and tend to get only stuff which (also) runs under Linux, trying to avoid MS as much as possible. It would be nice to see more support from the big vendors but it's no so bad as one might think. There are a lot of electronics specific programs for Linux including commercial ones too, but by far not as much as for the MS world.

author: liquibyte
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2013, 01:49:46 pm
content: QuoteI always feel uncomfortable asking people for things. Plus, I think something freely given like that should probably go to a student that really has a need for it. I just like to learn and never stop. I like the hobby but I don't think I'll ever get past that point. I'm 45 and don't forsee breaking into the business unless I entrepreneur it out myself. I'm not really good at money or dealing with people, not that I don't admire those that are and can. That said, one never knows what the future holds.QuoteI've seen the soundcard route done, just wasn't sure how well it worked. That and I'd hate to blow my system up from a misstep. I exploded my first cap not too long back and that scared the hell out of me.QuoteI've managed to get a few things running through wine if I want to try them out such as DipTrace which I heard about here. I run Arch and Eagle is in the repo but with the obvious limitations. Given that the server market is the way it is, I just don't understand the vendor lock-in to MS if the programmers are capable. Quite often they aren't which is why things don't get ported over. I don't mind proprietary but I do want native. I also have the other usual suspects such as Kicad and gEDA but those have limitations as well, just of a different sort. I'll bet I've installed every distro out there at least once since the mid 90's trying to get things workable to my satisfaction. So far for my needs, Arch is the clear winner and has been for at least 5 or 6 years.

author: SLJ
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2013, 02:09:31 pm
content: HAM Fests in the US are great places to find scopes. I've sold 5 or 6 good working 20-50 MHz analog scopes over the past few years for $25 - $50 and bought a couple of good Tek 465s for under $100. For some reason I can't pass up a good deal on a 456 with no shipping.If I had to choose the basic things I would like to have on my bench it for general electronics it would be (in order) A good DMM, soldering station, power supply, analog multi-meter, and an analog scope. Everything else is fluff or required or handy for some particular area of electronics like a signal generator for restoring old radios.

author: KD0CAC John
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2013, 02:42:24 pm
content: I wish I had more room to work and store gear .Because of another ham radio guy or actually several I have scrapped all kinds of test gear , mostly dead or in need of repair .Almost every ham fest I take home free stuff , 2 weeks ago I had not even got to the 1st table , and because of selling stuff cheap and repairing all kinds of electronics , a couple guys saw me walking up the the yard the ham-fest [ ham radio swap meet ] hay john heres the free pile .1st thing I grabbed was a Techtronix 468 opt 12 - after some testing found that there were issues in the high voltage area , no trace , frozen brightness pot , broken pwr switch , at that point I scrapped it , save a lot of parts .2nd was an older Sony commercial camera tripod case - scrapped .If I had the room and repair bench space I would fix much more of this stuff .I have picked up trailer & pickup loads of gear on average about 3-4 loads a yr. , with small finds 1-3 times a month .I find that there are fewer people wanting this stuff every yr. , so it hard to justify the expense of getting together the space .In fact , that is were a lot of this comes from , most surplus , consignment , store fronts are closing .I'm a large metro area and there fewer people doing repairing , building or buying any of this stuff .One friend and source does a lot of selling on ebay and my friend and I get his overflow by the pickup truck load 2-3 times a yr. we even get paid $15 hr. to clear out his overflow .

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 24, 2013, 08:27:48 pm
content: I don't know how I forgot it, but one of Dave's posts mentioned a solderless breadboard, so it is there now.

author: SLJ
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2013, 09:46:16 pm
content: Quote from: Lightages on July 24, 2013, 08:27:48 pmSolderless breadboards are very handy for anyone doing circuit design.The top one I built in the 80s with a built in function generator, power supplies, and voltmeter. The middle one I picked up later, and the last is a vintage digital designer. If you take your time you can find these used in the US pretty cheap. The middle one was like new and I paid around $30 for it. Not bad considering it has built in power supplies, function generator, displays, and is built into a nice carry case. The digital designer is a little harder to find cheap as vintage computer collectors like to have them. It's not as usable for general circuit design anyway.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2013, 09:01:09 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on July 24, 2013, 05:07:21 amOf course,back in the day,when the most basic Oscilloscope cost a couple of months pay,wehadto do without one!The best thing about landing a Technical job for us Geeks,was getting access to the Firm's test gear.I remember one midnight shift,building all sorts of versions of multivibrators using 12AT7 valves on an old mantel radio chassis.Being able to look at the waveforms at various points using a little Telequipment Serviscope drove home the theory which I was supposed to already know!I didn't get into trouble for wasting time,as there wasn't much to be done except to "be there",& in those days, Employers didn't think time spent on "self education" a waste!

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 18, 2014, 10:13:09 pm
content: Sorry to drag this thread back from the grave, but I was curious.Has anyone actually put together something close to my list? Beginners always come here looking for help getting started and some recent posts have reminded me of this thread. So I am bumping and looking to see if anyone starting out has purchased anything I listed or similar?

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 18, 2014, 10:57:58 pm
content: A follow-up video to this would be good.I do think $250 is pretty limiting though.$500 perhaps?After all, people think nothing of spending this sort of money on the latest phone, game console etc.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 18, 2014, 11:03:37 pm
content: Quote from: vk6zgo on July 26, 2013, 09:01:09 amAh yes, those were the days.I spend many a year as a beginner without an oscilloscope.People really are spoiled for choice in the modern world. Not only in bang-per-buck Chinese priced gear, but worldwide online ordering and shipping, and places like this forum and blogs to learn about what these deals!

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 18, 2014, 11:24:49 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on June 18, 2014, 10:57:58 pmYes, $250 was very restrictive. I was tying to show the lowest cost to have something usable. it was definitely much less than optimum. There are still many people in the world who can't, don't want to pay more than the absolute least possible. Examples? Students, pensioners of fixed income, children, people from countries with very low economics, etc...Perhaps the idea is a list of things for different budgets, ie: $250, $500, $1000, $5000.....Of course I believe that my idea for the lowest cost "real" lab was reasonable. Many people disagreed and some agreed. The continuing questions from beginners about starter gear shows that the question still has not been answered sufficiently.

author: pickle9000
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2014, 02:00:47 am
content: @LightagesExcellent idea, your list looks good, one stop shopping also good, probably most valuable as a beginners reference. I do really like the 250.00 dollar limit, for many even that may be out of reach (sad but true).I have that scope I picked it up because another forum member here is remaking the software and it looked interesting. I'm not a fan of a pc based scopes but if the choice is that one or none then that one is a fair choice.Of course I'd like to see more. Keeping to DX.http://www.dx.com/p/workshop-component-basic-element-pack-set-kit-case-for-starter-beginner-multicolored-193414$25.00 a big ticket item breadboard and assorted parts / wire.http://www.dx.com/p/ne555-pulse-module-w-led-indicator-blue-dc-5-15v-232460$3.44 a 555 pulser board, one of those things I think you need on a bench.

author: pickle9000
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2014, 02:07:57 am
content: I wonder what Frankie aka 99centhobbies thinks about this?

author: nowlan
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2014, 03:09:17 am
content: I think you have two kinds of beginners. children and students.I recall my brother putting dicksmithfunwaykits together.eg,example 2I still think structured kit building is best way to introduce people to electronics.Kitstop Starter Pack-- $475 Starter Kits Bonanza-- $25.50An adjustable AC adapter to eliminate batteries.Rinky dink multimeter.Dont forget hobby king with their 15 soldering iron and multimeter.My (clueless) friends still think they are bargain of the century.

author: Swake
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2014, 07:41:21 am
content: Everyone seems to start the hobby with hundreds of dollars to spent....This is part of my story:I was around 6 years old when I started with one screwdriver I found somewhere in my dad's man-cave. Heating the tip on a gas kitchen stove to solder. Had to replace the plastic handle with a block of wood after a couple of uses.Received 'universal' pliers from family. Previous to this I used scissors.The power supply from my model car racing circuit worked very well to power my circuits.I started using signal bulbs to measure things. Didn't last long. first real purchase was that of an analog multimeter. Costed the equivalent of about 30$ today. At that time a HUGE lot of money for me.Desoldering? Heat the tabs of the component and tap the board on the working surface. Best and quickest method ever. Careful though I doubt this is the recommended way :-DI had a ton of very diverse components and parts. Everything was salvaged from 'old' devices. I still use some of these today.Of course over time my tool collection expanded. And I have to admit a decent scope, some reliable lab power supplies and reflow solder equipment helps. But you don't need this to start building some smoke generators and electrocuting yourself

author: gildasd
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2014, 07:53:06 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on June 18, 2014, 10:57:58 pmIf you are a "normal" student and you don't have $500 for an IPhone unless you can score one second hand of during a silly low price promo (my case).I'm a older student, I have savings, I could spend $1000 but then:- The wife would be pissed off (she is working while I go back to uni).- I would spend half of that on stuff I don't really need. Better focus on the essentials, play around, then invest intelligently.- I'd probably be lazy and buy stuff instead of making it. Losing a great deal of the educational value of making/assembling it.- Or I would hesitate too long/not spend the money, because the 1st step is too high.So the $250 point (excluding consumables) would be great.If my lame arsed non IE self could make some suggestions:Do the video starting lower, in steps:- 100$ bare minimum. (meter and soldering iron?)- 250$ Student starter. (more)- 500$ Hobbyist with a job.(MORE)These should include certain elements in kit form:- Power supplies.- signal generators.- you decide, you the man.And others equipment that the beginner MUST take time to source free/Ebay/back of the University shed:- Analogue scope.But should not include:- Standard consumables.- Basic tools (pliers, hammer etc) that no self respecting opposable thumbed two legged mammal should be without.- Cursus specific things: for my studies, I need asynchronous AC motors/generators and related stuff, this is non standard, so not on the list.Remarks:- If the meter can be used in 240V AC mains for standard electrical wiring work, then the student can make a bit of side cash assisting an electricianCheers mate.GNota:Other thread I started with the same idea:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/suggestions/absolute-beginer-kit/msg464094/#msg464094

author: jay
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2014, 07:56:24 am
content: Here's some cheap stuff from DX that I've been happy with:http://www.dx.com/p/uni-t-ut61c-2-6-lcd-digital-multimeter-red-dark-grey-1-x-9v-battery-168702http://www.dx.com/p/5-inch-electrical-cutter-6996http://www.dx.com/p/banana-plug-to-alligator-clip-probe-cable-test-lead-red-black-100cm-10-pcs-149991http://www.dx.com/p/0805-pratical-smd-resistor-capacitor-sample-book-black-80-types-3725-pcs-214257There's actually a lot of items from DX in my lab.. Some of their products have been waste of money.

author: abaxas
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2014, 09:39:49 am
content: Why do people think they need $250 to start in this hobby?I started on a 30 in 1 which came as a random christmas gift. Got a 200-1 for my birthday a few months later. (I was about 11/12 at the time)Slowly I bought a breadboard, components, soldering iron and the cheapest digital multimeter money could buy. I built radios, amplifiers, mad flashy light art etc etc and as I got more competent I built my own Hifi, speakers an 8 bit sampler for my computer etc etc.You don't need a lab for this hobby, you buy one as you go along. Get exploring, not lusting after gear.

author: gildasd
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2014, 10:40:55 am
content: Quote from: abaxas on June 19, 2014, 09:39:49 amPersonally I need to start hitting the ground running...If I was doing this from a "strictly a hobby" perspective, I would 100% agree with you. But as many people here, I have professional interest in this.The hobby is just a fun way to "gamefy" the learning process...Because IE theoretical classes suck arse (if you want, check out one of our book, the WILDI, it's the funnest one we have, older versions are available free on the internet).With that in mind, I do not want to invest in anything that is too cheap/crap, because I will not be able to use it later (and will shortly end up in a landfill - that's against my ethics)...As a student I can't afford / have the time to buy something over and over again because it's not good or does not do what I want.From my perspective, a $10 meter is VERY expensive but a $70 UNI-T meter is VERY good valueAs for bench stuff, I'll beg borrow and scrounge or make everything from kits.

author: Creep
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2014, 02:03:17 pm
content: I beg to differ about the "spoiled" part, when talking about a scope as a necessity for learning. If I'm serious about learning (from a perspective of an EE student hoping to be working in the industry in the future), I want to make up a schematic first, do the maths by hand after, simulate the circuit next and then build it and hook it up to a scope to see if my calculations were any good. Without access to a scope, I'd always be left wondering whether or not my calculations and knowledge were actually true and see how theory differs from practice.Now I do realize this is a lot different for hobbyists and they usually don't care about the scientific part of things, but I usually try to treat my projects like school Lab work and take their analysis to the heart.TL:DR - A scope is a must in my opinion, when the aim is to learn and understand the workings of a circuit. Until now I have been lunging my projects to the university to probe them, but since I won't have access to it's equipment during the summer, a Hantek 6022BE was ordered and it arrived today. Haven't had the chance to check it out yet. Will look to get something a tad more functional like the DS1074Z or DS2072A when I have the money.

author: gildasd
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2014, 02:11:55 pm
content: Quote from: Creep on June 19, 2014, 02:03:17 pmGood and cheap...And you'll spoil yourself when you have a job... Same plan here

author: Creep
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2014, 02:28:25 pm
content: I only decided to go for it because of the nice job our fellow member RichardK did making a usable software utility for it. Since I only found negative opinions on the Hantek software, I wouldn't have dared to go for it otherwise. Maybe going to post my thoughts on it in a couple of days if I have anything useful to say about it.

author: bwat
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2014, 03:16:19 pm
content: For a lot of us it's a case of spending the money you need to spend. I wanted to relearn all the electronics I had forgotten and I had a book on electronics (Fischer-Cripps. A.C., The Electronics Companion. Institute of Physics, 2005.) which contained a series of experiments and a list of equipment needed for those experiments. I just bought everything on that list (oscilloscope, two channel power supply, signal generator, resistors, caps, diodes, transistors, opamps, etc.). In total it cost about the same as a high-end laptop. To someone of my age, this is unbelievably cheap!

author: LEDAero
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 05, 2014, 06:05:15 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on July 24, 2013, 02:13:01 amAs one of the targets of a post like this, the one thing we really need? A lexicon to translate all the buzzwords used by electronics geeks into human-readable format.Like, wtf is a 'bus pirate'? (yes, I know - read back in the thread... but this post is meant for n00bs... but it looks more like a 'this is why I'M cool' thread for experienced electronics dudes... us learners got lost about page 2.Having just recently started trying to learn electronics, my toolkit currently contains: a ton of hand tools - that I already had, like screwdrivers, side cutters, pliers, multimeter, unsuitable soldering iron, etc.What it has recently acquired: breadboard, bench power supply, a better multimeter, better lighting, lots of connectors, better quality solder, boxes of resistors, caps, transistors, LEDs, switches, plugs, little plastic boxes, a hobby mat (for cutting and soldering and glueing stuff), batteries and holders.What's next? A better soldering iron, a logic analyser and an oscilloscope. And apparently I need a waveform generator, but I'm not sure why.

author: gilbenl
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 05, 2014, 07:01:27 am
content: Went without so much as touching an iron for about 10 years so I guess that puts me back in the noob category. Had sold all my stuff and purged much of my knowledge for other things. Recently got back into it and have spent the last 6 months stalking ebay for good deals. Some recommendations, noob to noob (all prices incl shipping, USD):Fluke 27 (Grey Front)-$60Agilent 54621A Oscilloscope-$170 (you'll have to pry this thing out of my cold dead hands)BK Precision 4011 Function Gen-$65Agilent E3610A Power Supply-$55 In original box, spotless.Agilent 3478A DMM (Cal'd)-$75Total: $425I've probably spent $850 once you throw in an FX888, components and ancillaries, but most of this stuff will cover me well into the future. As I collected all this kit, the hardest part was being patient while I reached a "critical mass"-having enough stuff to actually do something fun. While I waited, I paid $100 and took an intro to electronics enrichment course at a local community college. This not only gave me a structured environment to brush up on my knowledge, but virtually unlimited access to their lab. $100 a semester for a fully stocked lab is not a bad deal...

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 05, 2014, 01:49:11 pm
content: Quote from: LEDAero on December 05, 2014, 06:05:15 amAn oscilloscope is the next important thing. Any oscilloscope is better than none.

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 05, 2014, 01:53:41 pm
content: Quote from: gilbenl on December 05, 2014, 07:01:27 amKeep in mind that the idea of this thread was to give beginners a clear and easy to obtain minimal lab to start. Sure random good deals can be had on ebay but it doesn't help the beginner who has no clue where to start and what to look for. The $250 budget is to help those who don't have much money and the single source of items is to help those who don't have access to things that many of us do.

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 05, 2014, 02:39:54 pm
content: Interesting different list 3roomlab, but ifixit only ships to the US.

author: gilbenl
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 05, 2014, 06:57:25 pm
content: Quote from: Lightages on December 05, 2014, 01:53:41 pmUnderstood-That was my point-To highlight individual pieces of higher-end gear that can fit in a beginner budget. The hardest part about building up my bench was knowing which products were quality and at a good price. I don't expect a beginner on a limited budget to buy all of these, but if they can get 1 or 2 in place of the no-name el cheapo special, all the better. There's also safety. I'd rather probe the wrong thing with a $50 used Fluke than the equivalently priced new meter any day of the week. Some may disagree and there are exceptions, but...I also believe they tend to hold their value longer. If I had bought a rebadged el cheapo PSU, the resale on it would be nil the day I opened the box. Conversely, the E3610 that I grabbed for $50 will probably still fetch $50 in a year or more. Parents purchasing starter items for their kids would probably be interested in some of these items for these reasons.I was just bragging about the 3478A though. Don't buy that unless you have a specific use in mind.

author: G0HZU
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 05, 2014, 08:05:36 pm
content: QuoteI completely agreeIn reality, the most important thing in the room is the hobbyist him/herself and what they learn from the hobby.The tools or the work environment aren't really that relevant when starting out in electronics. But this forum tends to give the opposite message IMO.

author: gildasd
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 05, 2014, 08:49:15 pm
content: Yeah, no lusting right now...My recent budget buys:- UT61B Multimeter: 56€- Extra Probes: 4€- MW 3V tp 12V 2amp power supply: 31€- Leads for the MV with clips: 2€- 10 crocodile clips: 2€- 2nd breadboard. Transparent this time, just because: 5.6€- Box of rigid wires for breadboard (mostly to have a box to put all my components for uni):4.5€- 2ex 4001, 2ex 4011 to test gate theory: 2€- 4ex 741 to be able to lay out multiple op amp experiments at the same time. 2€- Soldering kit (includes de-soldering pump etc); free when I went to buy 200m of CAT5 and 200m of TV cable for my house.-Different tip: 1.75€I'm thinking of getting a dirt cheap "solder yourself" USB oscilloscope.I know it's crap, I just want to be able to test if my circuits give a signal, not do any measurements (those are done in class) and it's only 37€...https://www.velleman.eu/products/view/?id=411826They also have a wave form generator:https://www.velleman.eu/products/view/?id=338491But it's seems hardly usable with 741's... So not compatible with my class work that's based on the LM741.

author: Dave Turner
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 05, 2014, 09:59:15 pm
content: Let's face it - even (or especially) as a hobby electronics can be horrendously expensive, if one wants to go further than blinking leds, testing a few op amps or a 1001 fun circuits.However to start on a budget then a reasonable multimeter, a battery, and a breadboard is minimum. That a big box of bits and even more importantly imagination.

author: LEDAero
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2014, 05:41:50 am
content: Quote from: Lightages on December 05, 2014, 01:49:11 pmThat's what I'm saving up for... but with all the other purchases I am making for my CNC machine, it's having to take a back seat.After lots of research, I can get a Hantek DSO5072P for $200, which seems to be about the best unit for the money I have.I look at it like I did my first motorcycle. It had two wheels and could stop, after a fashion, but it only cost me $250 and I kept it for a couple of years. The next 50+ bikes were bought with knowledge gained from that first bike, but I would never have gotten into bikes without buying that first POSI'm not expecting the Hantek to be the best thing in the world, but it will be more than adequate to learn on.Now, why do I need a signal generator?

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 06, 2014, 02:06:51 pm
content: A function generator is not that important IMHO. When it is needed is when you are trying to trouble shoot amplifiers and other circuits that take some kind of input signal. For most things you can make a simple Wein bridge oscillator for a buck or two. You can also use the output of a sound card.FYI, a signal generator is for generating RF signals, and a function generator is used for generating different waveforms.

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2014, 06:59:17 pm
content: Quote from: Lightages on December 06, 2014, 02:06:51 pmIsn't signal generator the general term for all kind of function/RF/video/whatever generators?

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 08, 2014, 01:47:08 am
content: The nomenclature might have been corrupted but the original meaning for a signal generator ws for generating an RF carrier wave. At least that is my understanding.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 08, 2014, 02:02:18 am
content: Back in the day,we had RF Signal Generators & Audio Signal Generators."Function Generator" was not in general use as a term until they became common in the late '70s,early'80s.A thing that produced sawtooth waveforms was called a "Sawtooth Generator"---if it produced square waves.it was a Square wave Generator"& so on.On that basis,they were all "Signal Generators",but the term was usually reserved in common usage,for the RF & AF ones.

author: LEDAero
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2014, 07:13:32 am
content: Quote from: wilfred on December 08, 2014, 02:26:34 amThat's what I thought.Now I'm jonesing after a SMD solder/rework station...

author: LEDAero
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 17, 2014, 09:27:52 am
content: Quote from: wilfred on December 11, 2014, 10:43:45 amIn my parts box: 33 Arduino Pro Mini; 29 Arduino Nano; 5 Arduino Mega2560; 18 Arduino Pro Micro; various flavours of Leaf, M3-Cortex, other embedded systems, half a dozen breadboards/protoboards, various ICs, bluetooth modules, 433MHz openlrs modules, sound modules, IR modules, all sorts of bits and bobs.That's kinda what I do - the electronics side is being hauled along by the programming side.I'm late to the game, but am making up for it by sticking 40+ hours a week into it

author: ptricks
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 17, 2014, 11:56:32 am
content: Quote from: LEDAero on December 05, 2014, 06:05:15 amBus pirate is a multi-protocol , multi use device that can be had for $20-30 . In addition to being able to read/write lots of protocols, it can do frequency generation, programming of chips, rs-232, and lots more.http://dangerousprototypes.com/docs/Bus_Pirate

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 17, 2014, 06:34:45 pm
content: just remember that my suggested lab is for beginners who need the basics. Sure an Arduino or a Bus Pirate are cool things but they are not the basics. If it takes an Arduino to get someone into electronics then great but basic tools are needed either way.Any kind of oscilloscope is better than a Bus Pirate if it is one or the other. That is of course unless you NEED the Bus Pirate for a particular task.

author: ptricks
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 18, 2014, 11:36:04 am
content: Quote from: Lightages on December 17, 2014, 06:34:45 pmAn old storage scope would be much more useful since a lot of the electronics now that a beginner is using doesn't put out continuous waveforms and we all know what fun a spurious signal is on an analog scope.

author: electr_peter
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 19, 2014, 09:37:11 pm
content: Quote from: 3roomlab on December 19, 2014, 06:23:27 am$5.54 for that POS? It has value of $0.00.I would strongly discourage anyone from buying and using such type of pen testers - their are dangerous and ineffective. Get something safer (like non contact mains pen detector, although these are not perfect either) or multimeter with required safety ratings.There are also variations of 2 probe voltage detectors with LEDs to indicate the voltage.First time purchases as a newbie may not be the best because of 1) lack of knowledge and experience, 2) limited understanding of the needs and equipment capabilities, 3) influence of non EE people. Some electricians still use those dangerous pen style mains detectors.---My advice - make a list of 1) what you want to do, 2) what equipment you have, 3) what equipment you need to buy.Buy equipment you need the most at the time while still managing the total budget. You will have most of what you need eventually.I would suggest to buy additional equipment first before upgrading existing equipment of different category. For example, say you are on limited budget and have simple oscilloscope. You can either buy signal generator or upgrade your scope for the money. Buy SG in this case so you could have scope+SG combo instead of just having better scope.

author: electr_peter
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 20, 2014, 09:56:03 am
content: Yeah , Amazon price is very high, these screwdrivers are cheap where I live at around ~$1 USD. There is also similar screwdriver version with batteries (3V+transistor to light the LED) for similar amount.Despite low price and popularity, I would say that these screwdrivers are even harder to use than DMM for beginners/non EE persons because of the misleading behaviour and unclear working principles. Answers you get of how these things work...Major problems with pen testers: theyonly sometimescan show that the circuit is live (sometimes circuit may be live but not detected as such); false positives; non live circuit are not tested; no isolation for user; crap quality. In some situations these can "work", in others simply can't.If I were pressed to get some kind of pen tester instead of DMM, I would choose two probe voltage detector stick with LEDs.

author: knks
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2015, 10:41:16 pm
content: I mostly do digital stuff, but even my opinion the scope is the number 1 in the list. If I had to make a choice, I would rather buy a scope + cheap $10 multimeter + cheap $10 iron, than just good temperature controlled soldering station + good multimeter but no scope at all.Just be aware, cheap multimeter is only safe to measure low voltage.

author: jinzo
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2015, 11:55:52 pm
content: I'm a newbie mostly interested in (car) electronics repair. So my usual workflow consists of some chip desoldering and soldering it back. I got a cheap used temperature controlled soldering station some time ago (and I have small accessories like tweezers, helping hands,...). Now I'm looking to expand my tooling with:- Variable power supply, I'll be mostly using it to power up 12V devices, but might go up to 24V in near future (and need something that won't kill me or the devices I'm powering). I'm looking athttp://www.aliexpress.com/item/Free-shipping-Wholesale-precision-Compact-Digital-Adjustable-DC-Power-Supply-OVP-OCP-OTP-low-power-32V5A/1842453949.htmlorhttp://www.komerci.de/shop/product_info.php?products_id=863&cPath=30&osCsid=d0acb3203f51f51df3e203ad1757129d- Magnifier lamp with light. I don't know how many diopters should I choose (or any other feature I should be looking at for the matter), looking at:http://www.komerci.de/shop/product_info.php?products_id=745&cPath=33_54&osCsid=847861f6793b13ccdccfb8541bfa018a- Multimeter, I'll be mostly using it for continuity checks and some light measuring, nothing major - considering UT-61E, UT-139C and EX330. I'll probably go with UT-139C -> mostly on the good word I read on this forum (and it has the temperature reading that I see myself using from time to time).- Hot Air - I'll go with YouYue 858D+ -> because it's the only cheap one (that I can afford) and there's quite some info (and modifications) for it on this forum:http://www.ebay.de/itm/DE-Lager-858D-SMD-Hot-Rework-Station-Heisluft-Loten-fur-SOIC-Chip-QFP-PLCC-BGA-/351063211031?pt=Schwei%C3%9F_L%C3%B6ttechnik&hash=item51bcff7c17Any input would be very appreciated. Budget for the whole expansion is around ~250€. If only those pesky hot air stations wouldn't be so darn expensiveNext up would probably be some "handheld" oscilloscope for sensor checking on the go... but that's a whole new thing that I'll leave for sometime in the future.

author: LEDAero
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2015, 01:36:10 am
content: Quote from: jinzo on January 11, 2015, 11:55:52 pmSounds like meI just bought a UT61E (didn't need temp) a bench power supply, a soldering station with hot air, etc.The UT I got from this store - good price and FAST shipping at a reasonable price:http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Free-Shipping-UNI-T-UT-61E-Modern-Digital-Multimeters-UT61E-AC-DC-multi-meter/586532912.htmlThe solder station I bought from YiHua's factory outlet on Aliexpress: Cheap DHL shipping and fast - so far it has exceeded my expectations. I have desoldered, flow soldered, tip soldered and it has worked flawlessly.http://www.aliexpress.com/item/YIHUA-995D-LCD-rework-station-with-hot-air-gun/1477320527.htmlThe magnifier I bought has a bunch of different magnifications thrown in. It's comfortable and relatively light, with a good LED:http://www.aliexpress.com/item/2-LED-With-Light-Head-mounted-Magnifier-Headset-Light-Head-Magnifying-Glass/1789794028.htmlThe 0-35V 5A bench power supply I bought seems really well made and works great - but... the connectors are on the back (a PITA) and the leads they give you to go with it are useless - alligator clips at both ends. But... I made a pair of long hooks for it and it works really well - the voltage is stable and within .1% of the rating (according to my new UT61E):http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Freeshipping-Wholesale-precision-Compact-Digital-Adjustable-DC-Power-Supply-OVP-OCP-OTP-low-power-32V5A-110V/2040084547.html

author: Paul Price
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2015, 01:54:43 am
content: You don't need to spend any money buying a power supply. A discarded 3.5amp 21V brick laptop power supply would be just fine. Add LM317 or 78L05/7805 regulators with a trim pot to set the voltage wanted right on the center of of your attention, the breadboard.All you then need is a small heat sink for your LM317 to wear if you are drawing any big power on your experiments.An old discarded PC's ATX power supply is a good source of small and large heat sinks, but they can also be found in almost any discarded electronic home equipment and salvaged.BTW. a discarded PC ATX power supply can also be used as a bench supply, plenty of info on this on this board and youtube.A magnifier-glass-lamp is very useful for work on small circuits, but it serves another important safety purpose, it protects your eyes and lungs from solder fumes and possible eye injuries.