Advantage of analog meters? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: uoficowboy
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2014, 07:00:26 pm
content: Hi - my current meters are my trusty Fluke 189 and a new (to me) HP 34401A. These are great - but I have recently been wondering if having an analog meter might add some value as well. I've heard the Simpson 260 mentioned a lot but would be open to suggestions...What do you all think? I've noticed times when analog meters on old power supplies helped me to catch something (ie a brief burst in current) that digital meters would not indicate. So the question is this - do you see much value for an analog meter and, if so, what model do you suggest?Thank you!

author: KJDS
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2014, 07:24:30 pm
content: I quite like the AVO 8 for voltage and current. Very easy to see small changes and drifts that are confusing on a digital meter. It's sort of like a very low speed scope.

author: Excavatoree
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2014, 07:28:42 pm
content: An AVO is the better meter IMO, but in the US a Simpson is less expensive and easier to get.The Simpson expert from whom I buy my meters (e-bay) recommends a -7 or a -8 for actual use. Earlier meters are more likely to have problems and require work. I'd recommend buying one from someone who regularly sells these meters, and who has the equipment and knowledge to evaluate them and repair them.

author: Bored@Work
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2014, 07:32:29 pm
content: The advantages of analog multimeters are limited these days to a few special cases where the mechanical dampening/averaging of the meter movement helps to see some value. If you happen to face such situations then an analog meter is certainly helpful.Try a quality one from Sanwa (careful, many Chinese fakes on the market), Gossen, Simpson or evenTriplett. But check if the measurement ranges are good enough for electronics and not just electricians.Then there are of course the special ones, like tube-based millivoltmeters. If you have a need for one and can get a good used one, or a good FET millivoltmeter then why not.Oh, and there is fun stuff like the Chinese MF47-type multimeters. Many different versions and clones from different Chinese manufacturers, including some offering a kit. Good to train your head in shaking in disbelieve. Same with the Hung Chang aka Protek junk.

author: w2aew
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2014, 07:37:55 pm
content: I tend to use the analog meters when I am tuning, adjusting, peaking, etc. a circuit and want to watch for changes in voltage or current as the adjustments are being made. Watching numbers or bargraph on a DMM just isn't as intuitive. I actually like analog meters on my power supplies for this same reason. When I need a specific voltage at my circuit under test, I'll always verify with a DMM anyway (regardless of what is on the supply). You'll see my old 260 in several of my videos for this very reason.

author: Neilm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2014, 08:00:16 pm
content: True analogue meters are good in certain applications. One word of warning - I did get an "analogue" meter and was a bit suspicious due to the design of the case. Opening it, the first thing I saw was a small microprocessor. WTF??The thing was a digital meter and they had replaced the LCD with an analogue pointer.For a laugh, I took it to our in house EMC testing facility and did a radiated immunity test on it. The meter went end to end then locked up. I had to take the batteries out to cure it.

author: jeroen79
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2014, 09:32:22 pm
content: On an analog meter you get the measured value by seeing the position of the needle rather than reading numbers off a display. Both methods take a different route through your brain.This makes it easier to compare the measurement to a target/reference, just see where the needle is relative to the target instead of doing mental arithmetic.And they can be useful to see values that change too fast for a digital meter but too slow to need a scope.

author: jancumps
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 27, 2014, 09:49:27 pm
content: Quote from: w2aew on February 27, 2014, 07:37:55 pm^ Thisand the fact that when I did my schooling in the 80s virtually all meters were analogue.I have no issues using a DMM - and mostly use them. But if I want to see changes in measurements I still pull out my trusted first analog meter.Like w2aew explains, I too have difficulties understanding what happens to a signal when numbers change - certainly in auto range.I don't have to think when I see an analog meter change. It takes some brain work for me (and a slight pulse of panic and confusion) when the digital numbers change.When I'm checking a circuit for values (e.g.: check voltages), I go for a DMM.

author: retiredcaps
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2014, 11:00:13 pm
content: Martin did a recent video.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2014, 04:20:44 pm
content: Quote from: jancumps on February 27, 2014, 09:49:27 pmOr you can use an oscilloscope. In a sense, oscilloscopes provide analog measurements, even the digital ones.

author: SoundTech-LG
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2014, 04:39:07 pm
content: These are pretty nice to find as well..."Hewlett-Packard HP-410B VTVMHaving repaired several other Hewlett-Packard Vacuum Tube Volt Meters (VTVM) that measure AC only at a frequency of up to 2 or 4 MHz, I was eager to see how this model stacked up. The laboratory grade HP-410B is one of the best VTVMs ever made. It can measure AC voltages with a frequency response to 700 MHz within 1 dB. It is useful to around 3 GHz according to the manual. That makes it excellent for measuring radio frequency voltages. It can also measure DC with an input impedance of 122 megohms on all ranges. Resistance can be measured from 0.2 ohms to 500 megohms. "http://www.ohio.edu/people/postr/bapix/hp410b.htm

author: jancumps
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 28, 2014, 05:15:47 pm
content: Quote from: zapta on February 28, 2014, 04:20:44 pmYes, true - if you don't need floating measurement.

author: SoundTech-LG
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2014, 05:26:20 pm
content: Yes, but that's why God gave us isolation transformers!unless you have an HP 130A.a pic of a collection of old VTVM's

author: AG6QR
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2014, 06:12:34 pm
content: An analog meter is both graphical and continuous, which makes it great for finding peaks or nulls. A bar graph on a DMM is often better at this sort of task than the default digital display, but the problem is that the digital bar graph only contains a limited number of segments, so the only changes you can see are the changes that are big enough to alter the number of "hot" segments. A genuine analog meter lets you see changes much smaller than a bar graph on a DMM could show.Having said that, the number of times when you need that combination of graphical depiction and high resolution is small. Usually, if you need high resolution, a four or more digit display on a meter is better, even if it's slower to respond. If I could have only one, I'd surely take a digital meter. But there are still a few situations when an analog is nice to have.

author: Wytnucls
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2014, 06:22:06 pm
content: I don't really see much advantage to using an analogue meter over a good digital one with a decent screen and bar graph.From a purely technical point of view, the bar graph replicates exactly the analogue interface, with probably less inertia in the pointer movement.I suspect that most of the appeal is due to nostalgia.A distinct advantage though, is better readability at a large distance from the instrument.That reminds me of the debate in aviation, when cockpit instruments became digital. The driving force was cost, as they are more reliable and require less maintenance. Some people couldn't adapt at all, usually the older pilots.Nowadays, all instruments are digital, with an analogue emulation for most parameters and the controversy has died down.

author: PA4TIM
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2014, 06:28:53 pm
content: I have a bunch of analog meters. You know it, if you need one. If you never missed one you do not need one.By the way, regarding the floating input, not all analog (active) meters are floated. So like with scopes, use an isolation transformer if you are not sure.I like to play around a bit now and then but I use an oscilloscope most of the time. For me they are collector items.There is one thing I still use them for. That is the repair of old tube stuff. Often the voltage stated in old schematics are only the same if you use the same type/class meter they used. An analog meter can have a very low impedance. This is given in kOhm/volt and often printed on the scale. Some are 10k/V but others can be over 100k/V. This resistance is parallel to the point you measure and can corrupt the measurement. A VTVM has a high impedance. Some even more as modern meters.Many score very bad on non sinewave signals and some even for sinewaves over a few 100 Hz. But there are also very good AC meters. They also made analog meters with special functions. Like TRMS, uV, null detectors, electrometers, etcSome of my meters that I think can still be usefull:The HP-410 is one of the best VTVM. There are however a few versions and some can be hard to repair. Beautiful build but huge. It can measure AC upto high frequency as long as it is a perfect sinewave. But every meter with a decent diode detector can do that. The AC probe is nice in winter to warm your hands. I have a AVO CT-38 that has that same feature ;-)It is not a meter you quickly need to check something. It needs a while to warm up and stop drifting like most VTVM.AVO 8, very nice classic. Can be bought for 10 to 30 Euro. They produced it upto a few years ago (but it was very expensive) I love the scale and needle looks. It is rather big and heavy and not something you should drop. It has a separate high voltage (2.5kV) input. The 2 range switches are "different" like many Englisch things (that is why I love England) It uses a rare battery for a resistance range. It has a resetable fuse mechanisme that protects the analog meter mechanisme.Simpson 260, this is for the USA, what the AVO 8 was in Europe. Mine has a very sturdy and handy leather holster like box. Nice allround and well build meter. Normal batteries but a bit confusing because all the different inputs. Nice is the polarity switch.I have a few heathkit VTVM's. They are nice if you need a compact VTVM for oscasional use. Not very special or different in some field.Do not skip the militairy meters. They are often not expensive and well preserved. Most are made with protective covers.The AN/USM-223 is a nice versatile meter. I have it in the living room in case I need a meter. Under the lid is a storage space with accesoires. It has a 20kOhm/V and 1kOhm/V range. (handy for measuring mains voltage), AC and DC voltage, resistance and DC current upto 10A. It does use the small bannanas for most functions and normal ones for ther 5000V input. It comes with a very cool 6.3mm headphone jack probe. HV testleads, crocodile clips etc.My favourite, but not allround: the HP-3400 10 MHz TRMS meter. Very accurate too and still outperforms most modern high end DMM's in frequency and crest factor.An other meter I still use (for leakage currents) is the Philips PM2436 DC micrometer. It can, beside DC voltage from 3 uV f.s. to 1000V, measure very high resistance and very low currents. It is an electrometer but not sourcing. The down side is a mercury cell inside used to self calibrate but most times empty and that often damages the board. Not very easy to use thanks to a real sick use off inputs/ ranges/scales/multiplyers. If I have not used it a while I need the manual so I made a little card that I keep under the meter as a quick guide. But it can do things most affortable DMM's can not do. But luike all philips, switches often need TLC, and let it pass if you can not find the manual. And even if you work for the NSA (hi guys) , they can be very hard to find.The Fluke 845AM, DC nul detector. Also usable as DC microvolt meter. I use it when I need my standard cells.I also have a Tek 130 analog LC meter. Not a multimeter but very cute and usable for RF use.For leakage current while testing capacitors I often use a Unigor. It is well protected (very fast resetable fuse) and build like a tank. Also a bit strange inputs. But on the back is a reference picture. It can measure up to 5000V. If you want a good analog meter that still is usable, rugged, large measuring range and accurate, an Unigor is the way to go. There are several models. Mine is passive but they have very nice chopper based models. I have the 4P. They still have many fans and a very good reputation. Used often by schools.Philips made some very good analog multimeters. A lot of models. They have a nice range rather modern meters. (made in the 80's I think) my favourite is the PM2505 active 10M input one with auto polarity, diode test, buzzer and much more. Very nice build meter. I have the passive sister, (PM2504), the LCD equiped one (2519 but dead LCD) and LED display version (TRMS PM2517E). (the PM-2505 is the one I would advise from this serie a very versatile and usable meter but a bit hard to repair and calibrate).My most beautifull VTVM is the 1948, GR-1800. The coolest part of this meter is the luminated scale, but it has more nice things like an extreme high impedance input. A nice wooden cabinet lined with copper sheet. Things like diode detector and accesoires are stored in a special storage space. accesable under the top lit of the meter. A real juwel that has a honour spot in my livingroom on top of a 1958 HP scopePictures of all these models are on my site

author: w2aew
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2014, 06:32:38 pm
content: Quote from: AG6QR on February 28, 2014, 06:12:34 pm+1Agree on all points.

author: G0HZU
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2014, 09:12:20 pm
content: In addition to points already made...You don't need batteries to measure voltage or current with an old school analogue meter.Also, an old analogue meter will still work in sub zero temperatures but some LCD displays will cease to function. This all makes an analogue meter a much wiser choice when it comes to storing a test meter in a vehicle

author: markce
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2014, 10:40:41 pm
content: I use one in my toolbox because it was cheap and small (M1015B) and survived all abuse.I still use a Philips PM2411 for tuning minimum or max values and as indication of speed of change of voltage/current. Has a nice mechanical fuse as well.The other analog meters I own (Philips, Unigor, Ballantine) are folclore...

author: HighVoltage
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 01, 2014, 11:45:06 am
content: If you look for good quality analog meters, there is a German company that made excellent meters.Since people like digital meters so much more these days, you can find them really cheap on ebay Germany.The manufacturer is called "METRAWATT", sometimes "GOERZ METRAWATT" or "Gossen Metrawatt"Their meters range from low cost meters to top of the line analog metersSome of them are still made brand new today.Here are just a few pictures

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 01, 2014, 03:40:24 pm
content: Quote from: HighVoltage on March 01, 2014, 11:45:06 amThey look really nice.

author: synapsis
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 01, 2014, 08:51:35 pm
content: Came up with a need for an analog meter just today that I thought I'd share.I've been messing around with creating X-rays from old surplus vacuum tubes. I've been measuring my output voltage with a Fluke 80k HV probe and a Fluke 26III. If the tube starts arcing over, the Fluke meter craps out and reboots.Now I have a couple Simpson 260s coming on the cheap from eBay. I had one when I was a kid and always wanted to get another one, just needed a reason.

author: Macbeth
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 01, 2014, 09:14:39 pm
content: Quote from: synapsis on March 01, 2014, 08:51:35 pmI would go for an AVO-8, in a bakelite case like a Mk III. Those things are near indestructible. Also big enough to be a bench meter too. The MASSIVE meter display with back mirror for parallax correction and hand painted calibrated dial make for a very accurate 20k ohm/v old school meter. It can measure 3kV IIRC.Best of all you don't bother with ebay, just go to carboots, junkshops, etc. You can always find one for £5-£10 eventually.The service manuals and circuits are all available on the old school valve radio and TV resto enthusiasts websites.As it was the de-facto service engineers meter from the 1950's - 1980's all the published schematics test voltages are done with an AVO-8 (ie. 20k ohm/volt).Having said that - for modern stuff it will just be a relic on the shelf - but always worth getting one (cheap) just to take it apaaart and re-calibrate it and have some fun restoring one. These meters used to cost £ thousands!PS. I see you are from the USA. Probably not so many AVO's over there.

author: Excavatoree
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 01, 2014, 10:29:35 pm
content: Quote from: Macbeth on March 01, 2014, 09:14:39 pmThe Simpsons, much more common in the US are also made of bakelite, I believe, but they are a bit fragile. The case material seems to be brittle - almost glass like. Plus, the movements are very easily upset. Just about every used Simpson I find at flea markets, pawn shops, etc. is off. Many think turning the screw to bring it back to zero solves the problem, but often it doesn't - and the meter is inaccurate at 1/2 to full scale.I think I've been lucky on only one or two, and had them OK when I purchased them, out of about 20 or so that I have. I've paid a Simpson expert to adjust two or three meters, and the rest are just display pieces. I think I have an example of all meters from the first one to series 8, but I don't have a series 9.Andy Davies uses his AVOs on some of his videos - they are very impressive. I've never seen one in the US but I'm sure they are around. Probably expensive, however.