Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ?? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: alsetalokin4017
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2015, 02:03:48 am
content: Wow. I'm getting a reproducible bug that's pretty darn severe.The scope freezes up, becomes totally non-responsive (but still displays live waveform) when the Horizontal Zoom mode is engaged, and a Persistence Time other than "min" is selected.Cycling power restores functionality --- usually.I discovered this on Firmware 04.02 and now have upgraded to Firmware 04.03 and it still does the same thing. One channel active, showing a waveform, select the Horiz. zoom mode by pressing the Horizontal Scale knob, select any Persistence Time other than Min ... and scope freezes.If I select a persistence time _before_ selecting the Horiz. zoom mode... the scope freezes, and since I have "Last" set as power-on option, the scope comes up frozen after restarting !! So I have to do the "press repeatedly the 5th left menu button during startup" to get the scope back to responding again (reset to defaults, chinese language).Am I the only one experiencing this?

author: kwass
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2015, 03:29:41 am
content: Quote from: alsetalokin4017 on June 03, 2015, 02:03:48 amI can't reproduce this bug running firmware 4.02. I've tried several different settings before zooming and then changing the persistence and the scope hasn't frozen on me.

author: alsetalokin4017
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2015, 04:03:13 am
content: Hmmm..... thanks for checking. That's kind of discouraging though... if others can't reproduce it, then it means there is something wrong with my scope.... again. I'm past the vendor's 30 day warranty period now, too. Grr.I discovered it using firmware 04.02 and then changed to 04.03 and it still does it.

author: alsetalokin4017
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2015, 05:07:04 am
content: Here's a video:

author: kcbrown
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2015, 05:20:56 am
content: I don't seem to be able to reproduce the bug by changing persistence after going into zoom mode. However, I did notice a small visual artifact on the screen after having done that, so I suspect there's a memory-related bug here.On the other hand, I was able to reproduce the issue by changing the persistence first and then going into zoom mode. Fortunately, thanks to the original message, I set the scope up to boot up with the default settings, so I avoided having to use the magic reset method.That method reproduces the issue consistently. This is with firmware 4.02.SP4.

author: bitwelder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2015, 05:26:16 am
content: To help others reproduce the issue, you may try to save the scope setup on a file, and post it (or link it) here.

author: kcbrown
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2015, 05:34:24 am
content: Quote from: bitwelder onTodayat 07:26:16 AMI was able to reproduce the issue by doing the following with no probes connected:Boot the scopeChange the display persistence by pressing the "Display" button, then changing the "Persis Time" to 500ms.Press the horizontal timebase knob. This will put you into horizontal zoom mode.At this point, the scope stops responding to any input (except the power button, of course).The issue reproduces for me without fail when I do the above.

author: alsetalokin4017
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2015, 06:10:54 am
content: Thanks. I feel a little better now... at least it's not _just_ my scope alone that does it. This is a pretty bad bug, IMHO. No user input or combo of settings should be able to make a scope freeze up and require rebooting! This isn't Windows we are talking about, after all.As far as I can tell only the Horizontal Zoom and the Persistence settings determine the bug; it seems that other settings are irrelevant, can be anything. But I've attached a setup file (zipped for the upload) which works for me anyway, below. Just load the setup, press Horizontal knob to enter zoom mode, then change the persistence from the Display menu. Or set the Persistence first then enter zoom mode.

author: Jeroen3
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2015, 06:58:26 am
content: Is there a bugzilla tracker for rigol bugs yet?Seems like we are spotting a lot of bugs.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2015, 07:14:28 am
content: Quote from: Jeroen3 on June 03, 2015, 06:58:26 amSure there is, our very own Katie started this thread:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1000z-series-(ds1054z-ds1074z-ds1104z-and-s-models)-bugswish-list/And it seems to get bigger by the day.Also recent discussion in this thread:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/bugzilla-environment-for-tracking-bugs-on-the-software-in-rigol-scopes/msg669925/#msg669925

author: poorchava
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2015, 07:55:06 am
content: I have also encountered freeze when using horizontal zoom, but I'm sure that I wasn't messing around with persistence settings, something else triggered the freeze. I will try to reproduce it.Anyway, it seems that there is something off with the horizontal zoom option.

author: kwass
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2015, 12:41:58 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on June 03, 2015, 07:14:28 amI'd love to record this bug as soon as I'm able to reproduce it, I always check them myself before adding to the list. For the life of me I can't reproduce this no matter what I do. I'm a bit reluctant to load the settings files that alsetalokin4017 attached in case there's a corruption in there that's causing this lockup issue.Is there anyone else that can't reproduce this problem?One other related thing to check: When not zoomed in and showing the DISPLAY menu do you see the Persistence setting gray-out and switch to MIN when the timebase setting is 200ms and longer? The return to normal (still at MIN) when you're back under 200ms?

author: alsetalokin4017
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2015, 02:17:34 pm
content: Quote from: kwass on June 03, 2015, 12:41:58 pmYes, I see that happening, too but I didn't consider it a bug since it only happens at the very slow timebases; somehow it seemed logical that it would act that way at very slow timebase settings. Also, my "freeze" bug does _not_ seem to happen at these very slow timebases. I don't know where the threshold is but setting to 1 microsecond/division definitely works on mine to cause the freeze bug.Katie, could you please try this: Connect only one probe, CH1, connect it to the Calibrator output. Press the "Auto" button to let the scope set its own parameters and display the Calibrator signal. (I hardly ever use Auto but in this case it lets us start at some known setup.) Mine sets itself to 200 us/div horizontally and 500 mV/div vertically. Now test for the bug: press Horizontal scale knob to enter Zoom, and then select the Display menu and try to change to 100 ms or 200 ms persistence. Here I get no freezebug, it seems to behave normally if somewhat slow to respond. Now reset Persistence to Min, exit Zoom mode, and then change Horizontal timebase to 10 us/div. Enter Zoom mode and then try changing Persistence to 100 ms. My scope freezes here.So it appears that on my scope at least, the freezing doesn't happen if the timebase is relatively slow. But at faster timebases it happens.

author: Tainer
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2015, 04:13:14 pm
content: FW 4.0.3 - can't reproduce the bug. Tried different persistence settings. Don't remember having this issue on 4.0.2 either.

author: alsetalokin4017
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2015, 05:31:14 pm
content: Quote from: Tainer on June 03, 2015, 04:13:14 pmDid you try it with the timebase set to 1 us/div?So we have had one other person who was able to reproduce it, and several who have not been able to.I've now confirmed that it happens to my scope even when the options are "re-locked" back to stock no-options 1054z mode.I think, also, that it might not happen when "memory depth" is set to the maximum in the Acquire menu. Try setting to "Auto".

author: Tainer
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2015, 06:01:17 pm
content: Nope, same result at 1uS/div. UI does seem less responsive, but no lock-ups.It might be interesting to see if you could access the scope from the PC when it freezes.

author: alsetalokin4017
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2015, 06:41:21 pm
content: Quote from: Tainer on June 03, 2015, 06:01:17 pmNo, when it's frozen it won't accept a Telnet connection nor will it respond to the Bildschirmkopie program. I'm using Linux so the UltraScope software isn't an option. When it's not frozen I can use Telnet normally for all SCPI commands and the Bildschirmkopie program fetches screenshots and communicates normally.I've now confirmed that the freeze happens when the Memory Depth is set to Auto, and doesn't happen when the maximum depth is set (12M for "unhacked" and 24M for "hacked" status.)

author: Solder_Junkie
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2015, 07:22:40 pm
content: I've tried and failed to lock up my 1054Z using all the suggestions posted so far, it is still on options trials) and has firmware 4.02.

author: pascal_sweden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2015, 07:34:04 pm
content: Maybe the reproduction steps can be tried after a factory reset, to confirm that it is not related to a customer specific configuration in the scope.

author: Howardlong
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2015, 08:47:38 pm
content: I can't reproduce it on an MSO1054Z-S, firmware 4.02 SP4 board 6.1.1.

author: alsetalokin4017
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2015, 09:52:46 pm
content: Quote from: pascal_sweden on June 03, 2015, 07:34:04 pmWell, the closest thing to a "factory reset" is what comes up when one repeatedly presses the 5th dark grey left menu key during bootup, right? The scope comes up in Chinese. So I set English. The 1 us/div and Auto memory depth are set by default already. So I set Persistence to 100 ms, then enter Zoom mode... and it freezes.

author: alsetalokin4017
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2015, 09:58:18 pm
content: Hmmm... this is pretty strange indeed. We have at least one other person who IS able to reproduce the freezeup, but several others who cannot.Well, now that I know it can be avoided by using full memory depth, it's not really much of a problem for me, but it certainly is strange that some (at least two!) scopes have the bug and others don't.Another short video illustrating the issue:

author: pascal_sweden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2015, 10:08:14 pm
content: Just a note: if you touch the screen of the scope with the stylus, don't you scratch the screen?I am usually very careful in touching the screen of my scope, multimeter or laptop.When you are using a PDA, then of course the screen is designed for using a stylus, that's a different case

author: kcbrown
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2015, 10:10:32 pm
content: Quote from: alsetalokin4017 on June 03, 2015, 09:58:18 pmWhat's the date of calibration for your scope? Mine's March 4, 2015, and I only took delivery of it yesterday. It's the closest thing I can think of to a "build date", something we could use to determine roughly when these were made.

author: alsetalokin4017
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2015, 11:17:07 pm
content: Quote from: pascal_sweden on June 03, 2015, 10:08:14 pmI don't think a slight tap from a bamboo chopstick is going to hurt it! I'm very careful myself too, it's a lot harder to clean off fingerprints than it is to avoid leaving them in the first place.

author: Muxr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2015, 11:29:36 pm
content: My DS2000 was also freezing all the time when I first got it, it was really annoying I would get a lock up every 20 minutes on average, firmware upgrade to 3.0.3 solved the issue. The version that was buggy was 3.0.0. Since I upgraded to 3.0.3 I only had one lock up of the UI in 3 months.

author: alsetalokin4017
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2015, 11:30:42 pm
content: Quote from: kcbrown on June 03, 2015, 10:10:32 pmThe cal cert says 16 Jan 2015.I don't know if you've read about the "saga". We ordered the scope in early February, and due to backorder and longshoreman's strike, I didn't have a delivery until the first week of April. (I don't remember the exact dates offhand). This was "scope 1" which turned out to have a bad glitch on CH4. So after consulting with a Rigol tech and the folks at TEquipment I sent that one back and was shipped a "new" one from TEquipment. But... some alarms went off about the replacement "scope 2".First, the packaging. There was only one box, it was not double-boxed like the first one and like the ones you see "unboxing" on YT videos. What happened to the outer box?Second, the serial number. The "new" scope had an _earlier_ SN than the one I returned, by quite a bit of numbers. This didn't make sense to me, as all of TEquipment's stock at that time should have been from the container they received at the end of March.Third, there were some minor differences in how the "feel" (control response timing) was compared to my memory of what the first scope felt like. Later I put that down to my imagination but now I'm not so sure any more.And as we see now, the calibration date was in January, which fits with the early SN.So I'm wondering what to make of all this. Is the scope I got as the "replacement" a lemon, not too bad to toss out like the first one but still not quite 100 percent "right"?

author: Bob F.
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2015, 11:32:49 pm
content: Same on my brand new DS1054Z (4.02.SP4 as yet un-hacked). Mine will freeze after changing Persistence setting at anything faster than 20uS with Mem-Depth at Auto when put into Zoom mode. Changing from Auto to the maximum 24M (why is my unhacked 1054Z saying 24M? [edit: oh yeah - it's still on the Trial - doh!]) stops it freezing as reported above.Oddly, it took me several tries before I was able to make it freeze, but it does it every time now.I have also just made it freeze by changing the Persistence value while it was in Zoom mode @ 1us/div.And again @ 20us - but this time I had to change the Persistence twice - it froze when I hit the button the second time to change it...I think I'll let Rigol sort out the actual issue! Will just have to remember to keep it at 24M as suggested until Rigol sort it out (assuming it is firmware which I guess is most likely).Is there no soft-reset for the scope - a combination of key-presses?Cheers, Bob.

author: alsetalokin4017
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2015, 11:38:01 pm
content: Quote from: Muxr on June 03, 2015, 11:29:36 pmDid other 2000 owners also have the same problem? I'm still waiting for more reports of this bug, most people don't seem to be reproducing it. If it's down to just mine, or a few from a short production run maybe, then I don't expect Rigol would fix it in a firmware update.I'm also having trouble understanding how this could be a hardware fault, though. The first scope's glitching was obviously in hardware, but this one's a lot more difficult to call. Still, I've now reinstalled the 04.03 firmware again, and tested both with Options "installed" and "uninstalled". (I hate to use the "h" word.) Still the same problem happens.

author: LightlyDoped
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2015, 11:39:02 pm
content: I'm still running firmware version 4.02 and I can't reproduce this behavior. By the way, my scope also came from TEquipment without a double box. I received it in early February.

author: alsetalokin4017
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2015, 11:43:52 pm
content: Quote from: Bob F. on June 03, 2015, 11:32:49 pmThanks for that report, Bob! Now maybe Rigol will notice, especially if others can report the same bug.There are two different "resets" that I know about. If the scope is responding, look in the "Storage" menu, at the bottom there is a "Default" button. This will reset many of the scope's parameters back to default.Next, there's the 5th one of the six dark colored buttons on the left menu panel. Press this button repeatedly during power-on bootup, and the scope will reset back to what I think are factory defaults. It will be in Chinese when it starts, but will be on the page where you can select your desired language.

author: dadler
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 03, 2015, 11:50:02 pm
content: Quote from: alsetalokin4017 on June 03, 2015, 11:30:42 pmJust a data-point for you:I sent back a DSA815-TG due to defective display, and the Tequipment replacement came in a single-box. No outer box. And the single box that it did come in, had a big hole poked through the side into the interior of the box. Luckily, once I opened the box, I discovered that the hole was on the back side of the device (no screen contact).The new DSA815 seems fine and has a later serial number than my original. However, I wonder where the original outer box is for this DSA? The box must exist, serial number and all. Makes me think I got a refurbished unit, or a return of some sort?

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2015, 11:53:41 pm
content: Quote from: alsetalokin4017 on June 03, 2015, 11:43:52 pmDid anyone reported the bug to Rigol?Is not like they are monitoring every thread here at the EEVblog, so don't expect it to get fixed unless someone contacts them.

author: Muxr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2015, 12:01:06 am
content: Quote from: alsetalokin4017 on June 03, 2015, 11:38:01 pmI do remember reading a few lock up complaints on the 2000 but nothing like I experienced. I have a DS2072A so maybe it was just limited to that revision and the firmware it shipped with.

author: GonzoTheGreat
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2015, 12:52:00 am
content: Quote from: alsetalokin4017 on June 03, 2015, 09:52:46 pmI was able to reproduce the bug when starting from the factory defaults and keeping the memory on Auto and 1us/div.I am using the firmware 4.03 in the "100MHz hacked mode".

author: alsetalokin4017
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2015, 01:44:21 am
content: Thanks for the report Gonzo. Getting much snow down there these days?So now I'm confident that it is a software bug, not just some peculiarity of my unit. We have now almost as many freezebug detections, as non-detections. What's different about the ones that can't reproduce the bug, though?

author: John Coloccia
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2015, 02:17:59 am
content: I can reproduce it too. Has anyone actually reported it to Rigol, with a link to this thread?I'm 4.02.sp4. Mine just came in the mail yesterday.

author: kwass
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2015, 02:19:29 am
content: I've tried everything suggested in this thread and still can't lock up my 1054z with firmware 4.02. And since we're sort of 50-50 for responders in this thread I'm going to guess that this is somehow due to a hardware variation -- however unlikely that seems.I'll record this in the bug thread as "some users have reported scope lock ups when setting memory depth to AUTO, timebase to 1us, zooming in and changing the persistence from MIN something else."

author: alsetalokin4017
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2015, 02:37:49 am
content: Quote from: kwass on June 04, 2015, 02:19:29 amActually... by my count in this thread I am counting 5 who have reproduced the bug (including me) and 4 who have tried and can't reproduce it (including you). So instead of "some users" you could be saying "over half of the users who tried..."

author: kwass
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2015, 02:40:33 am
content: Quote from: alsetalokin4017 on June 04, 2015, 02:37:49 amOh no, it sounds like we need another poll!

author: alsetalokin4017
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2015, 02:51:40 am
content: Quote from: kwass on June 04, 2015, 02:40:33 amHeh.. OK I put up a poll, and voted in it. Please everybody check it out and put your vote in!

author: John Coloccia
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2015, 02:52:55 am
content: I've also noticed that when the persist time is anything but min, and you go into the delayed sweep (or whatever they call it), depending on what your initial time scale is you will run into various VERY slow GUI response as you change the second time scale. It's not random. It reliably happens at specific time scales.So for example, on mine I set:Persistence 100msMain time base: 100usSwitch into delayed sweepAs I move the second time base from 5us to 2us, the transition takes a LONG time.That's just one example. I tried it with others, and the various delays vs time base are all over the place. Some are very fast...others have me thinking the scope is locked up, but it's actually working. It's just VERY slow. Setting memory depth to the maximum doesn't fix the problem. It just changes it.None of this happens with persistence set to min.So there's more to this than simply locking up. I wonder if the others that can't reproduce the locking up could possibly reproduce the huge slowdowns changing the second time base?Anyhow, I rarely use persistence greater than Min, so it's not really affecting me. Just wanted to help out a bit.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2015, 03:54:28 am
content: Quote from: alsetalokin4017 on June 04, 2015, 02:51:40 amPlus another option: I haven't got a 1054Z but I want to see the results.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2015, 04:42:16 am
content: Quote from: tautech on June 04, 2015, 03:54:28 amThe forum software has taken care of that; the "View Results" button is right below the actual poll. No need for a "fake" voting option ;-)

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2015, 07:12:33 am
content: Quote from: ebastler on June 04, 2015, 04:42:16 amThanks, it was included in another poll recently, that's why I asked.All good.

author: alsetalokin4017
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2015, 11:12:26 am
content: We seem to be missing a few "Can reproduce" votes!Two more people have reported "Can reproduce" in comments on my second YT video linked above. One was someone who tried at first and couldn't reproduce, but by following the video exactly, was then able to make his scope freeze as described. That one was a "never hacked" stock 1054z unit with some time left on the trial options.The other "Can reproduce" commenter has contacted a Rigol tech and they are exploring the issue. Apparently the Rigol tech couldn't get his scope to freeze during their phone call, but he's looking into the matter further.This is a real bug, and results from a perfectly legit combination of settings that might reasonably be expected to occur in normal use. Why some people can't reproduce it may be because of a real difference in their scopes, like good vs bad production runs of some chip in the things, or maybe just my lousy instructions aren't conveying the bug parameters sufficiently well enough.

author: jadew
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2015, 11:44:27 am
content: DS1104Z - 04.02 - can't reproduce.

author: Anand
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2015, 12:34:17 pm
content: DS1054z - 4.03 - CAN reproduce.

author: Jeroen3
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2015, 01:35:00 pm
content: What are the exact steps you need to follow from Factory Defaults to reproduce the bug.You cannot have a bug that only happens with some scopes, that smells like a hardware bug.

author: John Coloccia
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2015, 02:18:19 pm
content: Set persistence to 100ms.Set memory depth to Auto (should be set that way already)Set time base to 1us.Switch to delayed sweep mode.Locks up on me every time.Plus, there's the other funniness with response times that I mentioned earlier. I doubt this is a hardware bug. I'll bet money it's some sort of race condition, and any differences between different scopes is just due to slightly different timing.The big question is can DAVE reproduce it? He's got a 1054Z, no? Maybe I'll post this in one of the 1054Z video threads and see if he notices.

author: John Coloccia
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2015, 02:31:54 pm
content: I just shot Dave a PM explaining it. We'll see if he has a chance to try it. If he can get it to lock up too, I thought it'd make a fun little video. It really is kind of a strange setup, though. I could see getting in there by accident, but I'm not sure why I'd ever do it on purpose. Maybe looking for a glitch in some comm protocol, or something like that?

author: alsetalokin4017
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2015, 02:33:29 pm
content: Quote from: Jeroen3 on June 04, 2015, 01:35:00 pmPlease watch my videos linked above, especially the second one.Or....1. Power off scope, disconnect probes, or connect CH1 probe to Calibrator or some other signal. My scope reproduces this bug reliably even with no signal input (no probes connected), or any signal to CH1.2. To enter "factory default" mode, repeatedly press 5th dark grey left menu button while scope is starting up. Screen should come up in Chinese.3. Select your language (I have only tested with English language.)4. Note that 1 us/div is already set in Horizontal Scale. Note that "Auto" is already set in Acquire>Mem Depth. If not, set these now.5. Enter Horizontal Zoom mode by pressing the Horizontal Scale knob.6. Display>Persis Time> select 100 ms, or anything other than "min".Scope freezes at this point.Steps 5 and 6 can be reversed.Or you can start with Memory Depth set to maximum, then when in Horizontal Zoom with 100 ms Persistence, select Acquire>Mem Depth> Auto and the scope freezes at that point.

author: alsetalokin4017
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2015, 02:38:22 pm
content: Quote from: John Coloccia on June 04, 2015, 02:31:54 pmOr looking at a signal with some jitter, etc. I was usually using "Auto" memory depth, and setting some persistence allows a more "analog" picture so lets one see the magnitude of the jitter a little better. That's how I found it. I don't think it's such an unusual setting combo, even though it took me a month of use before I actually encountered it.Regardless of that, no legitimate combination of user settings should make a scope freeze up and require a reboot! This isn't Windows we are talking about here....

author: OldDogSleeping
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2015, 05:52:22 pm
content: I put that I can't reproduce the freeze in the poll, as no matter what I did using the probe calibration signal it worked fine without freezing.However I thought I'd just try a faster signal, so connected up a 100 Khz square wave, and guess what ? It freezes with 100ms Persistence.Bellow 100Khz, the scope becomes unresponsive and freezes as you zoom in, but it can be recovered by removing the signal, and hitting STOP.anything bellow 10 Khz, and mine does not freeze.Newish DS1054z 00.04.03

author: Jeroen3
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2015, 06:15:07 pm
content: Yet again, apart from becoming very slow, it does not freeze.

author: JohnPen
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2015, 06:41:17 pm
content: I followed John C's sequence on my newly arrived DS1054Z with no input signal and it 'Froze'. No reaction to any Button pushes! I still have the demo options and have upgraded the F/W to the latest 00.04.03. So definitely a somewhat severe bug if one ended up with that combination of timebase and persistance. Power it down and everything comes up normal again fortunately. I haven't tried other combinations though.

author: JohnPen
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2015, 06:52:19 pm
content: I forgot to mention after powering up again the 100ms persistance was remembered and selecting Delayed Timebase again froze everything again. However the Delayed menu did not change to ON on either occasion despite being selected. ie remained OFF. Rather weird.

author: JohnPen
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2015, 07:05:25 pm
content: Last time powering up for now I finally ended up locked up as mentioned in the first post of this thread. A session of pressing the fifth left button to recover in Chinese brought the scope back to life and returned everything to normal. I hope Rigol take some notice of this thread's comments and update their F/W to cure this as it isn't very good to be able lock the scope up like this.

author: John Coloccia
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2015, 07:09:20 pm
content: When you managed to reboot and come back OK, did you turn the scope off quickly after noticing the lockup, or did you play around with it for a while? Could be that things are just crawling along so slowly when it happens that it didn't even have a chance to record the current setup, so when you rebooted it didn't remember you'd just gone into the delayed sweep. I'm almost wondering if after it's frozen, perhaps you can just leave it for 20 or 30 minutes, and it will eventually come back. It would sort of be consistent with the other slow downs I saw. Maybe it's not locked...it's just crawling along extremely slowly.

author: Tainer
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2015, 07:34:52 pm
content: Although I voted for "don't have the bug", I do agree that there is something seriously wrong with this mode. I noticed some minor graphical glitches while changing trigger settings, so I tried to take a screenshot of these glitches. It took about 6 minutes to write the image on a usb-stick and the images were corrupted. Tried different usb-sticks - same result.

author: JohnPen
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2015, 08:18:04 pm
content: After the first reboot I did not play around for long but just tried to select Delayed Timebase the persistence had remembered it was 100ms. However on selecting Delayed the screen changed to part display view ie 2 traces but no 'blue - space -blue window' but did not show Delayed ON. This first time everything then froze and no buttons did anything.After the Fifth button boot up and Chinese start up all worked OK again. Following your suggestion I Set up the 'Frozen mode' again 100ms persistence and 1us Timebase then selected Delayed again. Once again it froze showing the 2 traces as above and Delayed apparently OFF. But this time I left it for some time. After some 10 minutes, I didn't keep watching, the full blue- space-blue window appeared and Delayed suddenly showed up as ON. The scope then continued to operate normally again. It would appear that the s/w has a bug such that it goes through a rather long s/w loop or perhaps it waits for the Memory to Fill up (Currently 24M at 12.0kpts 1GSa/s).So your thoughts of a long slow response are correct.

author: alsetalokin4017
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2015, 08:30:01 pm
content: Quote from: Tainer on June 04, 2015, 07:34:52 pmWow... that is really weird. I have seen some unreasonably long delays in writing a picture to the USB stick if I try to save while the scope is running. Sometimes it is pretty fast but usually not. So now I generally Stop the scope before I save a picture, this seem to work to make it save much faster. If you Stop the scope, do you still get outrageously long delays saving, and corrupted files?By the way, I think I've found another difference between firmware 04.02 and 04.03. I think I recall that when the scope is Stopped, the Hardware Frequency Counter stopped showing a valid value in 04.02 and showed "<15Hz" instead. But now in 04.03 the value in the HW Freq Counter stays at its value when the scope is Stopped. This is good.

author: alsetalokin4017
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2015, 08:35:53 pm
content: Quote from: JohnPen on June 04, 2015, 08:18:04 pmAlso very interesting. I think I've had mine sit for longer than that in "frozen" mode but I don't really have any data. So I'm doing a trial right now. I've got a circuit on the bench that I'm running some tests on and I'm taking a coffee break so it's an ideal time. Here's the current screen I'm looking at. From this, I just selected Auto memory depth and as soon as I selected 100 ms persistence, it froze. Started the stopwatch....

author: JohnPen
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2015, 08:37:04 pm
content: Just found another interesting thing once you have used Delayed with 100ms and frozen it, waited till it caught up every persistence value and ON/OFF of Delayed works almost instantly. It would seem the first time one operates the Delayed with 100ms is the only occasion 'Freezing' for a long time occurs. I haven't tried with other initial values of persistence to see if the Frozen period changes with different values. Just maybe those other forum members who haven't seen this problem didn't try it from first boot up and had already filled the Memory with other activities. Perhaps some of those who couldn't create the Frozen mode could try it from cold and see if they can then repeat the problem as well.

author: JohnPen
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2015, 08:53:13 pm
content: Additional point I hadn't noticed that I was in stop mode when I switched Delayed ON and OFF. On pressing Run ie Auto it all froze again and I am timing properly this time! So far 14 minutes frozen.

author: alsetalokin4017
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2015, 08:55:49 pm
content: 23 minutes and still frozen.....

author: John Coloccia
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2015, 08:57:27 pm
content: Mines been on for quite a while too, now. I'm just going to leave it run while I'm soldering up some products. We'll see if it ever comes back. The fact that the slow ups are occurring, and that it sometimes comes back after a while, might help Rigol track down the problem. Given that people are seeing different behavior depending on the signal going in might even suggest it could have something to do with triggering.

author: alsetalokin4017
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2015, 09:12:49 pm
content: Quote from: John Coloccia on June 04, 2015, 08:57:27 pmMaybe... but my scope still shows a perfectly valid, live triggered waveform while it's frozen.40 minutes now and still frozen. I'll give it a few more minutes then I'm rebooting and getting back to work.

author: JohnPen
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2015, 09:20:14 pm
content: I have just got to 40 mins and it hasn't recovered this time so it looks like the Fifth button might be needed again. That's it for tonight in the UK!

author: John Coloccia
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2015, 09:33:21 pm
content: Yeah, I gave up at the 45 minute mark too.

author: Loboscope
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2015, 09:51:01 pm
content: I have the DS1104Z (true 100 MHz), Board Ver. 0.1.1, SW 00.04.02.SP4.No Freeze-up Problem, it seems only to response a little bit slower, but not worth to think about.Greetings, Jürgen

author: Tainer
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2015, 10:42:05 pm
content: Quote from: alsetalokin4017 on June 04, 2015, 08:30:01 pmAfter pressing 'Stop' screenshots are saved without problems, graphical glitches disappear as well. Glitches appear on 1uS/div when I change trigger level (notice the blue line at the bottom of the screen).

author: alsetalokin4017
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2015, 10:55:45 pm
content: Quote from: Tainer on June 04, 2015, 10:42:05 pmI have seen that blue (or maybe green) line also, for the first time just today. I can't reproduce it "on demand" but it was definitely there once or twice today.I also noticed in the Trigger menu the "Sweep" item would be completely blank and there would be no LED lit indicating sweep mode above the trigger "Mode" button. Normally always one or another of the three lights is lit and there is always either "Auto", "Normal" or "Single" in the "Sweep" menu item box.

author: alsetalokin4017
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2015, 09:48:16 am
content: So what is happening here? We have a real mystery.-A show-stopping bug has been found that seems to affect roughly half of the DS1054Z units tested.-The bug affects scopes running firmware 04.02 or 04.03.-The bug doesn't care whether the scope's Options have been unlocked or not -- several reports of totally "virgin" never-been-hacked scopes with the bug have emerged. The bug affects stock 1054 units and those that have been "unlocked" to 100MHz status.-The show-stopper might also have other minor bugs associated with it, like slow-downs, corrupted file-saves, a screen artifact associated with setting Trigger Level, and other strange behaviours associated with the Horizontal Zoom (aka Delayed) mode.-Some users who initially reported not being able to reproduce the bug, eventually were indeed able to do it by the proper combination of settings.So how can this be? There must be some difference between scopes that have the bug and scopes that do not, and it doesn't appear to be related to the firmware or the "hacking" history. A hardware issue? Some difference at the component level somehow? That affects only half the units? This is very strange.I'd really like to hear Dave's take on this.

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2015, 02:36:17 pm
content: Quote from: alsetalokin4017 on June 05, 2015, 09:48:16 amMy friend You may not be too far from the truth.What is happening is very simple and I have been saying this for months:Rigol have no idea what they are doingThis was proved in another thread for their bad oscilloscope ADC clock case. It was clear they had no idea how the circuit works, how to select design parameters, how to select components, how to layout the circuit. No quality control was performed, otherwise this defect would have been caught right away.I myself have a DS2072 and it caused me direct dollar loss in terms of my lost time before I realized what rubbish it was. It only took me less than 24 hours to be hit with at least two defects - lock ups and that the scope did not memorize its 50 Ohm input setting between power-ups. You check the setting in the menu and it says it was on 50 Ohm, where is in fact the input was on high impedance. That mislead me and caused me wasted time which cost money. There is no excuse for this type of shit to be happening.I bought 2072a scope to make my life easier, but it made my life harder. I have been saying since then anyone buying rigol junk will sooner or later regret they did. Reading this and other threads I can see it is now happening that this junk began affecting their owner's performance. Why do you, I and others have to spend time fighting with this POS instead of using this time for their circuit testing. What kind of instrument is it if it requires fixing it first. Oh year, I can already hear someone singing the familiar "cheap, best bung for the buck !!" mantra. But is it? Cant you guys see that you now waste your time troubleshooting this shit? Is that what "best bang for the buck" supposed to look like ?In regards to your hardware issue guess, it well may be the case. I have opened my 2072a to fix the ADC clock problem and what I found beside that problem was bunch of other hardware related problems all over the board, along and across. In one instance reviewing a circuit that occupied 1 square inch of space on the PCB I counted 10 design errors! Wrong component selection, wrong design, wrong circuit layout. 10 errors per sq inch, that tells me something. And that is:- No more rigol shit of any kind on my bench. Never again.

author: John Coloccia
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2015, 03:16:27 pm
content: If you can't do real work with one of these things, in spite of a couple of firmware bugs, it's not the scope's fault.I've seen far far worse in far more expensive equipment from folks like Agilent, Tektronics, Newport, Melles Griot, National Instruments, etc...

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2015, 03:46:36 pm
content: Quote from: Bud on June 05, 2015, 02:36:17 pmBad day?

author: dcac
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2015, 03:48:14 pm
content: Unable to freeze my scope whatever setting I seem to try after going in or out of zoom mode, only effect is the UI sometimes seems slightly slower. Tried first with FW 04.02 then upgraded to 04.03 - same result.My 1054Z was purchased in mid January and has all options except 100Mhz and 500uV enabled.I've had other problems though that required a reboot, i.e. for some reason it started to refuse to react in single trigger mode. In normal mode though I had a nice and steady trigger.Only after a reboot, without changing anything else the problem was gone and single mode reacted again as it should. This has only happened 2-3 times and I've never been able to reproduce what caused it.EDIT: just to clarify, the single trigger problem didn't cause my scope to freeze, it just didn't trigger in single trigger mode.

author: alsetalokin4017
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2015, 05:26:39 pm
content: Thanks for your report. Just to be completely clear.... you did try the following?1. Display a signal on CH1 from the probe Calibrator, at 1V/div, trigger type Edge, trigger level 2.00 V, sweep mode Auto2. Set Horizontal Scale to 1 us/div3. Select "Auto" from Acquire>Mem Depth menu4. Select "100 ms" from Display>Persis. Time menu5. Enter Horizontal Zoom mode by pressing the Horizontal Scale knob

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2015, 06:45:15 pm
content: Quote from: ebastler on June 05, 2015, 03:46:36 pmSo you've not studied Bud and MarkL's analysis of the 1054z then?

author: alsetalokin4017
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2015, 06:46:50 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on June 05, 2015, 06:45:15 pmLink please ?

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2015, 07:00:24 pm
content: Quote from: alsetalokin4017 on June 05, 2015, 06:46:50 pmSome of the "nitty gritty" is here and the following page/s:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-683-rigol-ds1000z-ds2000-oscilloscope-jitter-problems/msg563330/#msg563330REMEMBER these guys uncovered the design flaws for us all to see.

author: Tainer
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2015, 07:39:44 pm
content: So what is the point? Rigol products are crap because they have firmware bugs? What utter nonsense!Some guy found out that 1054z has jitter issues and after it was covered on the eevblog everyone is talking about jitter. Let's face it - themajorityof users wouldn't even notice this issue in the first place, so I'm not surprised this bug slipped through QC. I'm sure the lock-up issue on some units will be addressed in a firmware update as well.EDIT: I've just had a look at the thread linked above. Sorrytautech, I couldn't detect sarcasm at first - no hard feelings

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2015, 07:40:41 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on June 05, 2015, 07:00:24 pmSo what? Rigol did not get the operating parameters for the clock PLL quite right, resulting in a clock jitter noticable on the scope display in certain measurements -- presumably more so with some, less with some other chips. They fixed the error rather promptly via a firmware update, such that no impact remains visible when using the scope. Only analysing the clock signal with external equipment, in the time or frequency domain, shows remaining impurities of the clock; but no one seems to have shown an effect on the operation of the scope.That leaves me rather pleased with my DS1054Z, and reasonably satisfied with Rigol's behavior in addressing the initial design flaw. My sympathy to all who are still in agony about this...

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2015, 07:45:46 pm
content: Quote from: ebastler on June 05, 2015, 07:40:41 pm

author: dcac
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2015, 07:46:43 pm
content: Quote from: alsetalokin4017 on June 05, 2015, 05:26:39 pmYeah, checked it again using that exact sequence and all I can notice is a slight hesitation on the screen update when going into H Zoom mode. I did it 5-6 times and the behaviour seems consistent.Looking at your video, using that sequence, it seems all the controls goes unresponsive but the scope it self is continuing to operate and updating the display with the waveform. So is something triggering the KeyLock feature? and is the KeyLock feature otherwise working normally? just a thought...

author: alsetalokin4017
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2015, 08:47:53 pm
content: Quote from: dcac on June 05, 2015, 07:46:43 pmThanks for checking again. This seems to confirm that the problem only affects some, perhaps half, of the scopes tested. That is really strange.Yes, the scope continues to display a live waveform when the controls freeze.The KeyLock feature seems to be working normally: When the KeyLock feature is set to "Lock" by the button in the Utility menu, pressing any key brings up a notice "Keyboard Locked!" But this notice does not appear in the "frozen" state when one presses a key.Also, when the scope is "frozen" it does not respond to an attempt to connect via Telnet over the LAN.When it is legitimately "locked" with the KeyLock feature it accepts a Telnet connection and responds to the :SYSTem:LOCKed? query and other SCPI commands and can be unlocked by sending the :SYSTem:LOCKed 0 command. If the scope is connected via Telnet and then the "freeze bug" is initiated while connected, the scope no longer responds to SCPI commands over the Telnet connection and cannot be unfrozen by the SCPI commands.Also, I can "freeze" the scope by sending the appropriate SCPI commands over the Telnet connection, at which point it stops responding to the remote connection::DISPlay:GRADing:TIME 0.1:ACQuire:MDEPth AUTO:TIMebase:DELay:ENABle 1-- and the scope freezes, stops responding to the Telnet connection, and requires a reboot. But it still shows a live waveform !!

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2015, 08:56:13 pm
content: Quote from: alsetalokin4017 on June 05, 2015, 08:47:53 pmSo more of a lockup than a freeze?

author: Tainer
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2015, 09:26:24 pm
content: Just a guess: the processor encounters some critical exception, but FPGA keeps operating as usual. That might explain why the waveforms are still updating and the rest of the scope is unresponsive.

author: alsetalokin4017
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2015, 09:53:06 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on June 05, 2015, 08:56:13 pmA rose by any other name....Sure, call it a Lockup if you like. I'm sorry if I confused anyone by calling it a "freeze bug". The fact remains that it cannot be "unlocked" by any means other than a hard reboot. When it is simply "locked" it puts up the message when a key is pressed, it responds to the remote commands and can be unlocked remotely or by pressing the "unlock" key on the scope.

author: alsetalokin4017
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2015, 09:57:24 pm
content: Quote from: Tainer on June 05, 2015, 09:26:24 pmSo how to explain why some scopes do it and others don't? A run of subtly defective chips installed? It might be interesting to examine the serial numbers of the scopes that do and don't have the bug.

author: kcbrown
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 06, 2015, 12:58:11 am
content: Quote from: Bud on June 05, 2015, 02:36:17 pmHave you detailed these errors somewhere, and especially the corrections you'd make to fix the errors you found? If so, where did you write them up?If not, why not? Such an analysis could be immensely useful, or at the very least highly instructive.

author: bitwelder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 06, 2015, 07:03:18 am
content: How about other models of the DS1000Z series? Do they show the same issue?

author: JohnPen
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 06, 2015, 07:28:03 am
content: It would seem likely that the variations in DS1054Zs 'Freezing or not' is a a combination of both h/w and f/w interaction. Variations in the speed of response/timing of the h/w could fall outside the f/w expectations. The occasional fact of the eventual recovery would imply that sometimes the f/w window of opportunity enables the f/w to recover and to continue operate correctly. A number of members have commented on the slowness of response to key presses sometimes so perhaps this is an occasion when h/w variation has delayed a bit to long. What do members think?

author: g8bnr
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 06, 2015, 07:42:49 am
content: Hi,I voted that I could not reproduce the initial problem, but, after following the second video, with the calibrator and 1uS/div, I can, consistantly, reproduce this lock-up condition. Sorry for the confusion caused, hope that Rigol fix this promptly. My unit uses Software Version 00.04.02 SP4 with board version 0.2.3 and, apart from this issue, is superb value for money.73 Dick G8BNR

author: cs.dk
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 06, 2015, 09:26:00 am
content: I can reproduce the freezing bug toEDIT: Running the new 4.03 FW..

author: bill21
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 06, 2015, 02:12:50 pm
content: I am able to reproduce the bug on 4.02.

author: alsetalokin4017
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 06, 2015, 02:54:40 pm
content: OK, so now we have a "random" sample of at least 25 scopes (some people have replied in comments on my YT videos, that aren't reflected in this thread) and we are running nearly exactly half-and-half (if we take g8bnr's initial "no" vote and move it to "yes", for example.)So where is Rigol on this issue? Where's Dave? Based on our sample we can expect _half_ of all the DS1054 units out there to have this problem.I'm sure glad I didn't know about this bug when I ordered my scope ! I might have selected some other manufacturer's product for purchase instead! And then I would have missed out on all the joys of owning a Rigol DS1054Z product!(Hello, Rigol.... are you out there? Dave? Earth to Dave, come in please...... over.......)

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 06, 2015, 03:18:26 pm
content: Quote from: alsetalokin4017 on June 06, 2015, 02:54:40 pmI'll repeat it again, did anyone reported the issue to Rigol? or do you really need Dave to do the work? or hope Rigol finds this thread?http://www.rigolna.com/tech-support/

author: alsetalokin4017
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 06, 2015, 04:02:40 pm
content: Here's the text of the note I sent to Rigol Tech Support:QuoteI have not yet received a reply.One of the commenters on my videos has also contacted Rigol (in the UK I believe) by phone several days ago, and their technician was not able to reproduce the bug on his demo scope during the phone call. I do not know what has happened since then with that contact.As we have seen reported here several times, some people who initially reported not being able to reproduce it, later were indeed able to do so.

author: alsetalokin4017
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 06, 2015, 04:07:34 pm
content: Quote from: miguelvp on June 06, 2015, 03:18:26 pmI think a lot of people (like me for instance) selected this scope for purchase, at least in part because of Dave's somewhat "over the top" reviews of this scope. And we recall the trigger jitter issue, and Dave's treatment of that and Rigol's response to his input. In my opinion this issue is at least as important as the trigger jitter issue, and by now it is solidly documented as a reproducible bug in half the scopes tested, from a reasonably large sample. So I think it would be nice for everyone if Dave could report on this issue, since he has a lot more "street cred" than anyone else in these matters. If Dave can't reproduce the bug on his own unit, let him try three others. Chances are he'll find one with the bug.

author: John Coloccia
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 06, 2015, 04:16:08 pm
content: I dont think Dave needs to be involved. I shot him a pm because I thought it would be a quick, easy video for him if he can reproduce it, but what does he have to do with it other than that? if it really bothered me enough, I could still return mine to tequipment, but its specific enough , and has enough workarouns (just dont use auto depth) that it's not all that critical, IMHO. The jitter bugvwas a show stopper.when I have a chance, ill report it to Rigol as well. I guess we all should, just to make sure. ill even offer to send them my scope to debug so long as they provide a replacement to use and pay for shipping.sent from my phone...sorry for all the typos.

author: alsetalokin4017
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 06, 2015, 04:48:04 pm
content: Well, one of the "gotchas" seems to be that the scope _sometimes_ doesn't remember the Mem Depth setting between power cycles, even if you have Utility>System>Power Set to "Last".I haven't tracked down the full set of circumstances to repeat _this_ bug yet. But it appears that if I have just one channel turned on, Acquire Mode Normal with Mem Depth set to 24M, and cycle the power, the scope keeps the 24M setting. But if I have all four channels turned on, with Mem Depth set to 6M (max for 4ch operation) and cycle the power, the scope comes up with "Auto" Mem Depth. But since the scope comes up with the "Utility" menu displayed, the user might not notice that the Mem Depth setting isn't where it was left, and inadvertently enter the Freeze-Lock condition.

author: willigo3
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: June 06, 2015, 04:49:42 pm
content: I bought the DS1054Z 3 weeks ago and can also reproduce the error. Firmware Version 4.02.Hopefully Dave can also take a test and Rigol read here.regards,Willi

author: alsetalokin4017
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 06, 2015, 05:26:21 pm
content: Thanks for reporting in. Now the "CANs" are leading the "CAN'Ts" slightly (the poll above doesn't include all the "CANs" that have reported to me.)And... I just managed to capture the "Green Line" display glitch, which seems to be somehow related to the Trigger. This is only the second time I've seen this glitch and I don't know the circumstances required to reproduce it. It disappears when the scope is "Stopped" but reappears when "Run" is selected, so I had to put up with a long delay while the scope saved the shot to the USB stick.

author: alsetalokin4017
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 06, 2015, 05:56:24 pm
content: Quote from: alsetalokin4017 on June 06, 2015, 04:48:04 pmBecause of this little "gotcha" it is actually possible for the scope to _boot up_ in the frozen (locked) state, even if it was running normally when shut down!! I've just shot a video documenting this "feature", which requires a "5th left menu button" reset, which of course loses whatever setup you had on the scope when you shut it down.For example, say you are in Horiz. Zoom mode, 4 channels, with 6M set in the Mem Depth and 100 ms Persistence set. All is copacetic, everything is fine, your "workaround" is working. Now you turn the scope off for lunch. When you return you start the scope up.... and it's frozen immediately, because the Mem Depth reset to "Auto" and now the conditions for the bug are satisfied. What if you don't know about the 5th button reset, and what if your complicated setup hasn't been saved to disk?So if anyone doesn't think a scope that boots up LOCKED/FROZEN isn't a significant problem comparable or exceeding the jitter issue.... I beg to differ with you. Especially since that "5th menu button" trick doesn't seem to be officially documented in the User Manual for the scope. People not reading this forum, finding themselves with a locked scope on bootup, may start to experience a little bit of stress, if you know what I mean.

author: John Coloccia
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 06, 2015, 07:17:34 pm
content: Well, I went and reported it too. I guess really everyone should just report it so it doesn't fall on the floor.

author: alsetalokin4017
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 06, 2015, 07:28:58 pm
content: I just got an email from Rigol, probably an auto-response, but they have assigned a Support Case Number and a technician to look into the issue. I imagine they are all off for the weekend so I don't expect to hear anything more for a few days.

author: kenw232
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 06, 2015, 07:52:54 pm
content: If anyone cares I've had my DS1054Z freeze but can't reproduce it. I haven't tried to reproduce it though. Firmware was 4.02 I think, I upgrade to 4.03 fine.

author: alsetalokin4017
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 06, 2015, 08:08:52 pm
content: Quote from: kenw232 on June 06, 2015, 07:52:54 pmYes, someone cares. Please try to use the steps outlined above and in my videos to see if yours will lock up under those conditions.The easiest way to do it is first to go to Storage>Default (press the button) and this will reset most everything to the basic settings, with CH1 on.Then:Connect the probe to the Calibrator to show a signal.Verify that the Horizontal Timebase is set to 1us/div.In Display>Persis Time, set 100ms.In Acquire>Mem Depth, set Auto.Enter the Horizontal Zoom mode by pressing the Horizontal Scale knob. Or by selecting Delayed ON in the Horizontal menu.If you've got the Bug, the scope will freeze now.If it's still frozen after you cycle the power, you have to use the "5th dark grey button pressed repeatedly" during power on startup to get back to Factory Default mode.

author: alsetalokin4017
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 06, 2015, 08:24:43 pm
content: Here's the link to my latest video, showing how the scope can actually _start up_ in the frozen state, after being shut down while running perfectly normally.The easiest way to reproduce this is probably like this:Disconnect all the probes. Go to Storage>Default (press button) and the scope will reset to most all defaults, with CH1 turned on. Verify that it is at 1.00 us/div.Now turn on all the other channels. The traces will overlay in the center of the screen, that's OK.Set Utility>System>Power Set = Last.Set Display>Persis Time = 100 ms.Set Acquire>Mem Depth = 6M (or highest available).Now enter Horizontal Zoom by pressing the Horizontal Scale knob. Everything still works, right? Not frozen, because you have 6M set instead of Auto in Mem Depth. Fine.Now _exit_ horizontal zoom, and cycle the power. When the scope boots up, see if the Acquire>Mem Depth has changed to Auto. If it has... then you've got that little bug too.So change it back to 6M.Now enter Horizontal Zoom mode. Everything still works, right? Not frozen.....Now cycle the power again, while still in Horizontal Zoom. If you've got the bug like I do, the scope will start up _in the frozen state_ and you can't even do anything about it. This happens because the Mem Depth has forgotten you set it to 6M and has reset itself to Auto, hence fulfilling all the conditions for lock-up.Congratulations... you may think you have now just bricked your scope. Fortunately it will come back to life with the "5th button" procedure.

author: gmb42
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 06, 2015, 10:19:02 pm
content: Bug not present with original firmware 4.01.SP2, nor after upgrade to 4.03. No apparent slowdown in the UI either. No "upgrade" codes entered.

author: alsetalokin4017
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 06, 2015, 10:32:29 pm
content: Quote from: gmb42 on June 06, 2015, 10:19:02 pmThanks for your report. So you've owned your scope for some time, then, since you had 04.01 originally?

author: gmb42
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 06, 2015, 11:24:30 pm
content: Ordered November 2014, delivered in Dec.

author: GonzoTheGreat
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 06, 2015, 11:38:08 pm
content: Quote from: alsetalokin4017 on June 06, 2015, 08:08:52 pmI think we are not paying sufficient attention to the signal appearing on the scope's input, when attempting to reproduce this bug.You originally stumbled upon it when doing some nanopulse shit ...didn't you?Are all calibrating signals the same across all models?Do all bug replicators bother to apply the same signal to the scope's input?

author: LightlyDoped
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 06, 2015, 11:53:25 pm
content: Try as I might, I can't get the scope to freeze following the posted steps. The scope's responsiveness does become sluggish while in zoom mode with the persistence set to anything other than min. (This is my second post, so I've already been counted. I wanted to see if a cold start might affect the outcome.)

author: alsetalokin4017
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 07, 2015, 12:01:36 am
content: Quote from: GonzoTheGreat on June 06, 2015, 11:38:08 pmI almost always use 10x probe attenuation and channel setting to match, so I forget sometimes to specify it. You can take it as "default" that I am using 10x attenuation unless I mention otherwise. Sorry for not being explicit in the first place.Yes, I first stumbled across it when doing "some nanopulse shit" as you say... if you can call 200 ns pulse width "nanopulse"... but as I and others have shown, it is possible to reproduce the bug with the Probe Calibrator input signal, or even no signal at all. At least on my scope it is.The Probe Calibrator for the DS1054Z produces a positive-going 1 kHz square wave, 50 percent duty cycle, at roughly 3 V peak. This type of signal is pretty standard for probe calibrators on low-BW instruments. Display it at 500 microseconds/div and each half-cycle takes up exactly one graticule division and it looks nice and square. If you look at this signal at 1 us/div you only see a small part of it and you can see how slow the rise time (or fall time, depending on which edge you are triggering on) actually is.I can't speak for other bug replicators so I don't know what signals they are using. For me, the signal doesn't seem to matter, as long as I am looking at it at 1 microsecond/division or faster. Slower sometimes, too, but the 1 us/div setting works every time.

author: alsetalokin4017
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 07, 2015, 12:03:55 am
content: Quote from: LightlyDoped on June 06, 2015, 11:53:25 pmThanks for reporting. I'm fairly convinced now that there are two populations of scopes, one definitely with the bug and one without. So you are probably in proud possession of a scope that doesn't have the bug. Rejoyce!It would be nice to know what the difference is between the two populations.

author: Bob F.
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 07, 2015, 02:06:29 am
content: Quote from: GonzoTheGreat on June 06, 2015, 11:38:08 pmMine freezes with the calibration signal on channel 1 and with no signal at all. It is the timebase setting that is a part of the equation: mine freezes at anything shorter than 20us/div and I saw some slow-down in the scope's response to keypresses at 50us/div.Cheers, Bob.

author: John Coloccia
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 07, 2015, 03:30:41 am
content: Mine freezes up with no signal at all. I didn't even bother trying it with a signal.

author: alsetalokin4017
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 07, 2015, 04:11:17 am
content: Thanks for the reports.Has anyone looked to see if they have the second bug that allows the scope to start up frozen, even after being shut down while running normally?That is, does the Mem Depth "automatically" reset itself to Auto, no matter what you had it set at when shutting down, even though you have "Last" set in the Power Set option? (This one may depend on all four channels being turned on, I'm still not sure about that.)

author: bitwelder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 07, 2015, 06:29:16 am
content: Quote from: alsetalokin4017 on June 07, 2015, 12:03:55 amAre all DS1054Z of Board Version 0.1.1? If so, no other h/w designator on the scope (perhaps hidden as part of S/N)?

author: Towger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 07, 2015, 08:00:49 am
content: Quote from: bitwelder on June 07, 2015, 06:29:16 amThere are a set of resistors on the pcb to set the version.

author: Howardlong
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 07, 2015, 10:31:16 am
content: Quote from: alsetalokin4017 on June 06, 2015, 08:24:43 pmAfter performing a full reset with the fifth button procedure and resetting the language to English, I followed through your procedure above to the letter, yes the Mem Depth set itself to auto, but the scope did not freeze at the end. Its response is a little sluggish, but it didn't hang.FWIW, my unit is an MSO1074Z-S, 00.04.02.SP4, board version 6.1.1.Although I set the Power Set to Last as per the instructions, I normally have it set to Default because of the way I prefer to work, although I can certainly see why some prefer the Last settings used.

author: alsetalokin4017
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 07, 2015, 10:55:34 am
content: Thanks for your report. It's "nice" to see that your scope also resets Mem Depth to "Auto" when it shouldn't .... this is almost certainly a separate software bug. The fact that your MSO1074Z-S can't reproduce the basic freezeup bug is also interesting, since the board inside your scope is very different from the DS1054Z board. This reinforces my opinion that the Bug is due to some bad hardware somewhere, perhaps a bad production run of some chip inside the DS1054Z specifically.I hope you didn't "vote" in the poll, since we are here trying to document the bug in the DS1054Z scopes!As far as using the "Last" setting vs "default" for the power-on settings... I think it's a great convenience that the scope remembers (mostly) how it was set when it was last shut down. This makes working with complicated setups much easier. However, it is still possible .... in the DS1054Z ... to cause the scope to "freeze" instantly, if one has the right conditions stored in a user setup file, which is loaded after startup.After all, if the scope is _not_ frozen, it is a matter of only two button presses (Storage>Default) to set the scope back to the Default setup state _IF_ it is actually responding to the controls.

author: Howardlong
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 07, 2015, 11:00:20 am
content: The boards are the same, just with more bits populated.

author: alsetalokin4017
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 07, 2015, 11:06:31 am
content: Quote from: Howardlong on June 07, 2015, 11:00:20 amTherefore the boards are _different_.You have back panel connectors, front panel connectors, extra buttons, chips, many software settings that are not present in the DS1054Z. Right? It may use the same _basic_ PC board but how can you equate "Board version 6.1.1" with the 0.1.1 version that is in the DSO1054Z?Never mind. If you think your scope is the same as a DS1054Z, ask yourself why you paid so much more money for yours.

author: Howardlong
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 07, 2015, 11:45:19 am
content: Blimey, I'd try getting out of the other side of the bed tomorrow!I'd have thought there was enough similarity such that the input is worth noting down. They use the same firmware releases.The -S is a daughter board and an extra button on the front panel. The MSO is a few extra populated parts on the main board, and an extra button and connector on the front panel.The price differential is because they can get away with it, the raw cost in parts is less than $20 between a DS1054Z and an MSO1100Z. Similarly, the -S daughter board plug in is about $30.Should you also discount DS1074Z(-S) and DS1100Z(-S) users too?

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 07, 2015, 11:49:06 am
content: Quote from: alsetalokin4017 on June 05, 2015, 05:26:39 pmI can reproduce it on my "upgraded" DS1054Z running 00.04.03, Board Version 0.1.1, using the instructions above.

author: smithnerd
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 07, 2015, 12:26:21 pm
content: Just reproduced the bug on a new DS1054Z (about 1 month old).Software Version 00.04.02.SP4Board Version 0.1.1Will lock up without any input.

author: tech5940
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 07, 2015, 07:39:48 pm
content: I'm also able to reproduce the bug. Software 00.04.03 Board 0.1.1 My scope is unmodified with the trials expired.Sent from my iPhone

author: GonzoTheGreat
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 07, 2015, 10:44:15 pm
content: My board's revision is also 0.1.1 and I can replicate the lockup.

author: alsetalokin4017
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 08, 2015, 01:56:37 am
content: Quote from: Howardlong on June 07, 2015, 11:45:19 amI do apologize for being terse.But yes, the introduction of different models into the survey adds too many variables to the mix. As far as I am aware, the problem has not been reported in those models, or in yours. So you should be able to see that including a "no" vote from a population of _different_ models that have not exhibited the bug is kind of "statistically invalid". While the scopes do use (mostly) the same hardware and software, it is quite likely that they come off different production lines, have their components picked from different reels or batches, etc. I appreciate your trying the test, but even if you had reproduced the bug I still would object to including the result in _this_ poll.If anyone with a different 1000 series model actually _can_ reproduce the bug as it is detailed here -- then we can start another poll if you like, widening the catch to all 1000 series scopes, or specifically dealing with one or the other of the models.The DS1054Z, "hacked" to 100MHz, or "virgin" unhacked, and running Firmware revisions 04.02 and 04.03, are subject to the Bug in about 50 percent of the units tested, or perhaps even more.I'd still like to know if those who have the Bug can reproduce the "start-up-frozen" state after shutting down an _unfrozen_ scope, as I show in the video above. It's quite easy to do, since the fact that the Mem Depth automatically resets to "Auto" means that one of the bug conditions is set for you by the scope when you start up. All you need is the three other conditions: Persistence other than Min, main timebase 1us/div or faster, and Delayed timebase (horizontal zoom) engaged. Shut down (with "last" as your power-on setup setting) in that state and when you restart... your scope is locked from the get-go.

author: alsetalokin4017
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 08, 2015, 02:00:02 am
content: Thank you all for your reports, and your efforts trying the conditions for the Bug. Still running about half-and-half. This issue should get Rigol's attention, since we have a pretty good sample size by now. There is definitely something wrong.

author: kcbrown
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 08, 2015, 02:45:34 am
content: Quote from: alsetalokin4017 on June 08, 2015, 01:56:37 amI have reproduced that issue as well.

author: alsetalokin4017
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 08, 2015, 02:51:43 pm
content: Quote from: kcbrown on June 08, 2015, 02:45:34 amThanks for your report. I imagine that all the units that have the Bug will also be able to reproduce this one as well.I've had email this morning from Jason the Rigol Tech, who has been assigned this problem. No information from him yet, other than that "they are aware" of the problem and they'll get back to me.

author: n4in
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: June 08, 2015, 08:04:31 pm
content: OK initially I was not able to cause my DS1054Z upgraded with 4.03 to freeze but now I can using all four channels as described.

author: alsetalokin4017
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 08, 2015, 08:18:51 pm
content: Quote from: n4in on June 08, 2015, 08:04:31 pmThanks for your report. Perhaps you could now try reducing the number of channels one by one to see if you can get it to do it with fewer channels selected.

author: alsetalokin4017
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 08, 2015, 08:19:46 pm
content: And.... just in case anyone was wondering....

author: alsetalokin4017
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 08, 2015, 08:42:55 pm
content: And... I just caught another instance of the Green Line display glitch again.

author: Bob F.
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 08, 2015, 08:48:40 pm
content: In addition to the original freeze issue, my scope will reset the Mem Depth to Auto when I power cycle it.Narrowing down the exact conditions is problematic as it always resets to Auto if Channel 3 or 4 are selected on power down, but sometimes Chan 1 and/or Chan 2 alone or together will do it too... Also always resets to auto if no channels are selected.Cheers, Bob.

author: alsetalokin4017
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 08, 2015, 09:28:20 pm
content: Quote from: Bob F. on June 08, 2015, 08:48:40 pmThanks for your report. So most likely you will also be able to get your scope to start up in the locked state, after shutting down in perfectly running order, as I showed above.Thank goodness for the "5th left menu button" reset capability!I still haven't heard anything more from Rigol Tech Support.

author: n4in
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: June 08, 2015, 10:53:23 pm
content: OK with 3 channels it does not lock up but the Memory Depth going to AUTO when restarted.I just got this unit from Tequipment.net about 1 week ago and I am trying to decide whether to keep it or return it. I am a hobbyist/Ham that likes to experiment and repair my equipment and my first digit oscilloscope. Not sure I should keep it, I am sure Rigol will come out with a fix but maybe upgrading this unit has pushed it a little beyond it capabilities.

author: alsetalokin4017
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 08, 2015, 11:31:15 pm
content: Quote from: n4in on June 08, 2015, 10:53:23 pmWell, as my latest video shows, the Bug doesn't care whether the scope is "upgraded" or not, and I have several other reports of "virgin" never-upgraded units that freeze when the conditions are satisfied.But it is relatively easy to avoid the Freeze conditions. Mostly it has to do with the Display Persistence setting. I've noticed that having some persistence set also interferes with the FFT updates. The scope's FFT slows to a dead stop if there is some persistence set, but resumes again when the persistence is set back to "min".So really, to avoid the freezing bug and the FFT halting, just don't use any persistence setting other than "min". Now that we (mostly) understand what produces the freezing, we can generally avoid the conditions.Of course it's up to you, but I'm not returning mine just yet, nor am I calling for people not to buy the scope. I'm reasonably confident that Rigol will come up with a fix for this and the other bugs. They may need to completely rewrite the software, though!

author: John Coloccia
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 08, 2015, 11:47:52 pm
content: n4in -It's not a show stopper bug, and it's pretty easy to avoid. If the scope is doing what you need it to do, you'll be very hard pressed to find a scope under $400 that can replace it. Ditto for the FFT bug. I see this scope as a bare bones digital scope with a very nice display, and whatever measurement/math it does beyond the basics is just kind of extra, IMHO. If you absolutely need more scope than that and need it all perfect, it may not be for you.

author: n4in
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: June 09, 2015, 02:13:17 am
content: I think you are both right, we get tied up in expecting more and not realizing the value.

author: alsetalokin4017
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2015, 12:55:15 pm
content: Quote from: alsetalokin4017 on June 08, 2015, 08:19:46 pmYes... I'm really wondering. It has been less than 24 hours since I posted that video to YouTube, and I have not posted a link to it anywhere but right here on this forum. And I've already gotten 5 "thumbs down" votes on it! Yet nobody bothered to leave any kind of negative feedback in the comments, other than the thumbs down votes. And the same people have gone back through the rest of my Rigol demonstration videos and left multiple thumbs downs on them too, just in the past few hours. Yet they are afraid to leave any comments stating what they find objectionable. Imagine!

author: W7NGA
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2015, 02:20:02 pm
content: I sincerely hope that this bug does not discourage hobbyists from purchasing this scope. I bought the scope last week and immediately put it through the paces of debugging a relatively sophisticated amateur radio application I designed using both SPI and I2C data busses. Never a problem and very impressive performance. I also have an Agilent 7014B right beside it and the only fault I can find is somewhat sluggish operation with everything enabled (triggering/decoding), and the smallish fonts. Yes, there are few other things with persistence (forgetting settings when powered on e.g. measurement font) but for $380 (Tequipment with eevblog discount and free shipping), this thing could lose three channels and I would still be thrilled.Indeed, it is the best thing going for the hobbyist. I am thinking of purchasing three more for the robotics class I teach. What a bargain!dan W7NGA

author: Jeroen3
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2015, 04:36:14 pm
content: This scope is really useful due to the advanced triggering. I used duration trigger to get a hold of CAN bus error frames.Its feature/buck rate is very high compared to a tektronix.

author: alsetalokin4017
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2015, 05:02:13 pm
content: I agree... mostly. The end user should be informed "up front" though as to how to recover from a locked-up scope by using the "Alternate Factory Reset" technique, and should be warned that this condition is quite likely to occur when a simple, legitimate combination of user settings is input to the scope.It's a shame that the Display>Persistence feature isn't implemented without causing problems though. Say you are looking for jitter and have some persistence time set. Then you want to look at an FFT of your signal. On my scope the FFT comes to a dead halt (although the scope isn't frozen) if any persistence time is set other than "min".Also, look at the FFT display itself, even when it is running properly. How is one to know whether one is getting a proper computation of the FFT for a complex signal? The result you get depends on Acquire mode, Mem Depth and Trigger level, as Anand has discovered.Yes, the scope is definitely still the best "bang for bucks" in terms of price and capability. It also seems to have the most "bugs per bang"! I'm not trying to discourage anyone from buying the scope, but I do think that the various bugs, and how to avoid or recover from them, should be "officially" made clear to the owners, and of course should be fixed by Rigol as soon as possible.

author: W7NGA
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2015, 05:36:03 pm
content: Your FFT display is exactly what I would expect.Why would you not expect the FFT computation to be dependent on the acquired dataset and the filtering/windowing imposed?

author: John Coloccia
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2015, 05:49:51 pm
content: Not entirely sure I really understand the FFT problem either. I haven't really looked at it yet.

author: alsetalokin4017
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2015, 11:08:13 pm
content: Quote from: W7NGA on June 09, 2015, 05:36:03 pmIn the two images I showed, the input signal (from the Calibrator) is exactly the same 1kHz square wave, BW limiting is on in both cases, fft Blackman windowing with Center Frequency at 3kHz is used in both cases, trigger level is set the same in both cases, memory depth is the same in both cases, all other signal and scope parameters are the same, except Acquire Mode. The only difference between the two shots is that in one case the Acquire mode is set to Normal, and in the other case the mode is set to High Precision. The FFT of a 1KHz square wave should consist of peaks at the fundamental (1 kHz) and the odd harmonics (3, 5, 7, etc kHz) without the secondary peaks that show up at the _even_ harmonics that are seen in "normal" acquisition mode. But I'm sure you know this already.Furthermore, even when High Precision is selected, the resulting FFT display depends on Memory Depth, as Anand noted.Why would you expect the FFT of a fairly clean 1kHz square wave to show peaks at even-numbered harmonics when a scope is set to "normal" acquisition mode, or indeed at any time? Not arguing, just curious. I'm sure that you probably have a lot more experience with digital scopes than I do, or than most DS1054Z purchasers might have. We just expect to see something that looks like what the textbooks show, I guess!

author: John Coloccia
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2015, 11:24:40 pm
content: His point, I think, is that there's no such thing as a square wave...it's a squarish wave, and it will not be perfect, so you won't see a perfect spectrum. Only way to really know if it's right or not is to download the waveform and run an FFT on your PC, if you're really interested.You also have to wonder about the various settings, maybe windowing...whatever. It's definitely something to investigate for someone who has the time and will, but I wouldn't be ready to declare a problem quite yet.

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2015, 11:44:49 pm
content: This is the rise time of the 1KHz test signal on a DS2000 the DS1000z is probably about the same:That's 11 divisions at 500ns per division so about 5.5us rise time, so the FFT is not going to be perfect.Fall time is probably as bad.

author: alsetalokin4017
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2015, 12:24:58 am
content: Sure, but as we asked in another thread... which display is "more correct" then? If you expect to see some "even harmonic energy" due to the slow risetime, why does that show up in the "Normal" mode but not in the "High Resolution" mode? Would one not expect it to be the other way around?

author: GlowingGhoul
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2015, 12:51:28 am
content: Quote from: W7NGA on June 09, 2015, 02:20:02 pmI get the feeling you'll be seeing plenty of used units up for sale soon.

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2015, 01:04:19 am
content: Quote from: alsetalokin4017 on June 10, 2015, 12:24:58 amCheck w2aew's videos regarding this,of course those scopes he uses have more features but higher pricescratch that, he is using just the scope features not the spectrum analyzer so it's about in par what the Rigol can do:Edit: if you don't feel like going through the videos, on Normal mode it's throwing a lot of samples away depending on the sample rate you select, on high res it doesn't.Quote from: GlowingGhoul on June 10, 2015, 12:51:28 amI doubt that, they can't keep up with inventory.

author: John Coloccia
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2015, 01:11:56 am
content: Scopes don't just magically spit out the right answers.

author: W7NGA
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2015, 02:44:46 am
content: Interesting discussion, and I don't mean to be an apologist for all things Rigol.In fact, there is some merit to the original posters complaint and I shouldn't dismiss it.Firstly, the Rigol calibration square wave is better than I thought and there is almost zero energy beyond the expected odd-harmonics and the fundamental.I show this in the first image, from my conventional spectrum analyzer. The signal is outside the working bandwidth but still provides a good relative indication of harmonic content.The perfect square wave has discontinuities whereas the real world square wave does not. However, there is such a thing as a distorted (non perfect) square wave with additional FFT terms.The second image is from the Agilent 7014B where the user has no control of the sampling parameters. Here, Agilent does a better job of memory management.Rigol has an Auto memory depth mode that still allows sampling artifacts to leak thru. This would be confusing to the beginner and a source of potential measurement error/confusion.The FFT can be a gnarly beast to tame. Clearly, there are critical relationships between array size, sample-rate, memory depth, truncations and windowing, etc. where the user has to have a firmunderstanding of their sampling system. I am a little surprised that Rigol doesn't shield the user better in Auto mode but I don't find it limiting. I will concede that it can be confusing however.dan W7NGA

author: alsetalokin4017
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2015, 04:47:44 am
content: Thank you for posting those spectra. Indeed, the spectrum analyzer tells the tale. The even-numbered peaks in the Rigol's FFT of its Calibrator signal when in "Normal" acquisition mode are spurious.

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2015, 05:18:54 am
content: Quote from: alsetalokin4017 on June 10, 2015, 04:47:44 amIn "Normal" acquisition at 5Msps when you are only set to 120Ksps sample rate it means you are throwing away 97.6 percent of the sample data so it's producing peaks where none exists.You really need to set your scope to high-res for FFTs.

author: Armxnian
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2015, 05:34:55 am
content: Can reproduce the freeze bug on .04.02 SP4 board 0.1.1 with all options (except 500microvolt/d) enabled. The mem setting is saved with 1 channel on, but reverts to auto if the scope is powered off with 4 channels enabled and set to power on last.Edit: Just upgraded to .04.03, and somewhat the same problem. Inputting a 1MHz sine wave instantly locks up the scope after switching the persistence. But inputting a 1KHz sine wave does not. I can change the persistence to all the different settings. I can also increase the frequency to 1MHz again and change the persistence around. But if I exit the zoom mode and enter it again at 1MHz it locks up. Basically, if the scope does not initially crash after switching the persistence mode in zoom mode, I can change the frequency to whatever I want, 5Hz and 25MHz for example, and also change the persistence to whatever I want. Tried to enter at 500KHz and it locked up, seems to be a specific frequency and up that it locks up.

author: alsetalokin4017
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2015, 04:04:05 pm
content: Quote from: miguelvp on June 10, 2015, 05:18:54 amWell, that's clear enough.... now. Is that "feature" mentioned in the User's Manual somewhere? "Thrown away sample data" causing peaks to appear where none exists.... That's interesting. I would have expected that "thrown away data" would cause peaks that _should appear_, to be missing or attenuated, not the other way around. Would you call this an aliasing problem.... which isn't affected by the "anti-aliasing" setting at all..... ?

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2015, 04:09:55 pm
content: Quote from: alsetalokin4017 on June 10, 2015, 04:04:05 pmYes:Quote

author: alsetalokin4017
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2015, 04:11:27 pm
content: Quote from: Armxnian on June 10, 2015, 05:34:55 amThanks for your report and testing. As I and others have documented, in our scopes the bug can occur with the 1kHz Calibrator signal, or even with no signal applied at all, as long as the horizontal timebase is set to some fast value. See the last video I posted above, where I demonstrate the bug with no signal applied and with no Options unlocked ("unhacked"), stock 50 MHz bandwidth. I have been using 1 us/div in the main horizontal timebase setting for my documentation and testing purposes, but using slower settings can also produce slowdowns and freezes sometimes as well.

author: alsetalokin4017
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2015, 04:32:34 pm
content: Quote from: ebastler on June 10, 2015, 04:09:55 pmThank you. This indeed does produce a better FFT display, of the Calibrator signal anyway.The shot below is using "Average" acquisition mode, 16 averages, Auto memory depth, AC coupled input with BW limit on, Blackman window for the FFT. And "persistence time" set to "min" of course. I hope Anand is reading here!

author: John Coloccia
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2015, 05:12:14 pm
content: As you've figured out, FFTs are not trivial to get right. I always take a scope FFT, where you typically don't have fine control over the data and processing, with a grain of salt. IMHO, it's more useful when you're trying to find some noise injected from somewhere... "Oh, there's a spike around 25kHz...I know what that is!"

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2015, 05:14:51 pm
content: Quote from: alsetalokin4017 on June 10, 2015, 04:04:05 pmWell the manual or any other manual for other scopes doesn't go too much into detail. but press the help button and see what it tells you for Hi-res and Normal.But this is true for all scopes, you should watch those videos by w2aew that I embedded earlier, and by watch I mean actually watch it, not just play it on the background while catching up with the forum.

author: W7NGA
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2015, 05:38:02 pm
content: This caught me at a bad time since I am leaving for S.E. Asia for 7 weeks and just put most of the test equipment into storage.I worked for Tektronix and have a dozen (or more) scopes here at the lab. I have a Tektronix TDS2014B, a terrible scope whencompared to the Rigol, and as I recall it cost 4x what the DS1054Z cost but it is similar in performance.I will retrieve the TDS2014B later in the day and run through these same tests. I am interested in a FFT comparison between it and the Rigol.Will report back later ...dan W7NGA

author: W7NGA
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2015, 02:18:38 pm
content: I retrieved my Tektronix TDS 2014B (100 Mhz, 1 Gs/s) out of storage and ran the FFT tests on the Rigol 1 khz calibrator.After using this thing for a few minutes, and remembering what I paid for it, I have to tell you that the Rigol DS1054Z is the best hobbyist bargain ever!What a jewel!As shown in the photo, even with Auto memory management, there is no getting around the undersampling artifacts.Using my 'real' spectrum analyzer and narrowing the RBW I can see even-ordered harmonics but they are greater than -50dB down from the fundamental.The TDS 2014B cleans up as the sampling rate is increased, as does the Rigol.Enjoy your DS1054Z .. as I said, I am thrilled and will be purchasing a few more for the classes I teach.Off to Vietnam ... cheersdan W7NGA

author: alsetalokin4017
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2015, 04:28:28 pm
content: Thanks for doing that comparison. Yes, I agree that the DS1054Z is a great bargain, an excellent scope for beginners like me.Hopefully you will make up a handout to notify your students about the conditions for lock-up and what settings are "poison" on your new ones, and how to recover from a locked-on-startup condition. Or maybe you can select new ones that don't lock up, from your vendor's stock. After all, you have slightly less than a 50 percent chance of getting scopes that don't show this bug. Or maybe Rigol will have issued another firmware update that fixes this bug by the time you return to your classes.Just curious ... is it possible to get the Tek TDS 2014B to start up "frozen" and unresponsive to all controls, after being shut down in a running, fully operational state?

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2015, 05:45:42 am
content: Quote from: alsetalokin4017 on June 11, 2015, 04:28:28 pmMaybe you should consider selling your DS1054Z -- or startusingit, to work on some nice, cool projects?Spending all your electronics hobby time searching for flies in the ointment can't be good for you...

author: alsetalokin4017
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2015, 10:10:33 pm
content: Quote from: ebastler on June 12, 2015, 05:45:42 amI use it daily, several hours every day or more. How do you think I found the bug in the first place? I also apparently use mine for more complex setups and in more ways than ....well... anyone else I've seen reporting on the scope. I've made several videos showing how to use some of the advanced features of the scope. At the moment I have _eleven_ different experimental setups stored in the scope for working on different projects. Do you think that scopeshots like the one below are somehow deliberately set up to show some severe bug in the instrument? No, this shot is from an actual circuit that I am developing and testing, and when the scope locked up on me, and even started up "locked"... that was from a legitimate combination of settings encountered while trying to get data on an actual circuit.So I reject your comment and its implied accusation. I am a scope _user_ and I expect a scope--- even a low-end, toy DSO--- to work properly; that is, as claimed by the manufacturer. When it doesn't, I'll make my findings known to other users in an effort to track down the reasons and get them fixed. You may not be aware that this is the second DS1054Z unit that I've had in my possession; the first one turned out to have a bad glitch in the CH4 hardware and so I returned it for replacement. Some people laughed at me then because _they_ never use all four channels, so why should I care if a channel is unusable on such a cheap scope? When I started noticing this present scope freezing up _while testing actual circuits_ on my bench, I started wondering if perhaps I had _another_ bad piece of hardware, so I started this thread. And you, and Rigol, and the other users of this scope, now know, because of MY efforts, that the bug exists in more than 50 percent of scopes tested, and how to avoid it. If you want to "shoot the messenger" or blame me in some way for talking about this severe bug which indicates something wrong at Rigol's production facility... that's fine with me. It won't make the bug go away though.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2015, 12:10:23 am
content: I am not able to replicate running 00.02.03.SP5. Old version, but DS1074Z, one of the first shipped. have not considered whether I should install latest firmware as current version seems OK (only a spelling error in default USB name and the last sample on the edge of a scrolling screen is wrong)

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2015, 08:47:48 am
content: Quote from: alsetalokin4017 on June 12, 2015, 10:10:33 pmAlright; my apologies if I came across as reproachful. I appreciate your efforts in finding and assessing this bug. Just felt that your sarcastic comments regarding the results of the Tek/Rigol comparison by W7NGA were overshooting a bit.

author: bingo600
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2015, 11:36:57 am
content: @alsetalokin4017It was a nice bug discovery.But now i tend to agree with ebastler , that absolutelyno oneon EEVblog could be unaware about this bug anymore.Rigol has ack'ed the bug (thank you) , and there is "no more soup, to cook on this fish"No reason to keep this thread alive anymore/Bingo

author: edavid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2015, 03:26:30 pm
content: Quote from: bingo600 on June 13, 2015, 11:36:57 amI must have missed that... was it in this thread? What did they say?

author: alsetalokin4017
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2015, 04:16:43 pm
content: Quote from: edavid on June 22, 2015, 03:26:30 pmI filed a report through the Rigol website, including a full description, links to this blog thread and to my videos describing the problem,and on June 8th I received this response by email:QuoteI responded with the information he asked for and emphasized that the problem happens with the DS1054Z, not the MSO series as far as I know. I have heard nothing back since June 8th. It is June 22nd as I write this.They have assigned "Case #: 00007818" to the issue.

author: eyesociety
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: July 16, 2015, 05:24:44 pm
content: Got my scope on the 15/05/2015.I can also reproduce it on my DS1054Z running 00:04:02:SP4, Board Version 0.1.1, using the instructions above.I contacted my supplier and he said your version of the firmware has been updated, and he said he would email me the latest version.The new firmware version is 00.04.03.SP1.I will let you know the result of the new update.

author: alsetalokin4017
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2015, 07:42:11 pm
content: Thanks for your report. Mine can still be made to freeze, even with 00.04.03.SP1. It is a little harder to get it to start up already locked in the frozen state, because I _think_ that the SP1 firmware doesn't reset memory depth to "Auto" on boot up like the older version did. I think.

author: timofonic
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2015, 07:49:54 pm
content: Quote from: alsetalokin4017 on June 09, 2015, 05:02:13 pmToo late! I'm saving money to get my first scope. I'm too OCD to not be discouraged, I dislike software bugs as much as cockroaches!

author: alsetalokin4017
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2015, 10:42:56 am
content: Well, that's your choice of course. I own a few analog scopes myself, and also an old Link pc-based DSO, but I find myself using my Rigol DS1054Z every day and hardly ever fire up the analog scopes now, and haven't used the Link at all since I bought the Rigol.In spite of the bugs, it's still a very useful piece of kit, looks and feels nice and certainly adds a lot of capability to my little "laboratory". I would still recommend this scope as a great buy for a first-time scope buyer who needs a DSO. (Even though I still think it's better to learn the basics of scoposcopy on a basic analog scope.)I have confidence that Rigol will fix the bugs in firmware as time goes by; meanwhile, I know that most of the bugs I've found and heard about won't affect most users at the basic level.If you are doing work that often really involves complicated setups that absolutely _must_ yield quantitatively correct results, then you'll have to save up for quite a while in order to be able to afford an advanced Keysight or LeCroy or Tektronix or similar model DSO. Under the principle that (almost) any scope is better than no scope at all... I'd still recommend the DS1054Z as a "first" DSO to the hobbyist on a modest budget. The chances of a hobbyist project being "shut down" by encountering a bug in the Rigol are probably pretty low.TLDR: I'm pretty happy with my DS1054Z in spite of the bugs.

author: netdudeuk
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2015, 10:54:54 am
content: Quote from: alsetalokin4017 on June 10, 2015, 04:32:34 pmMy FFT is all down to the lower right hand side. What's needed to bring it across to the left ?Thanks

author: alsetalokin4017
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2015, 05:11:57 pm
content: Change the Center Frequency and the Hz/Div settings.If you are using the Mode "Trace" then set your horizontal timebase to display a lot of cycles in the upper window.See the examples below, looking at an approx. 4MHz sine wave. First is the "default" display when you start up the FFT, next is the display after "tweaking" the settings. Note that I have the Center Frequency set to twice the frequency of the sine wave.Of course it all depends on what you are looking for in your FFT of an input signal, too.

author: netdudeuk
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2015, 09:23:18 pm
content: Thanks. Just what I was looking for. Appreciate the trouble you went to to get the screenshots, etc.

author: Penguin36
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2015, 12:03:33 pm
content: Hi,I just want to add my results to the freeze bug thread. Both scopes are not hacked and in trial state.DS1054Z:HW 0.1.1, SW 00.04.03.SP1 -> freeze confirmedDS1074Z-S:HW 4.1.1, SW 00.04.03.SP1 -> no freeze!And, saving screenshots to USB is much faster on the DS1074Z-S. Don't know if DS1074Z-S is allways HW 4.1.1?!So, I keep the 1074 :-)

author: Penguin36
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2015, 02:20:15 pm
content: I exchanged the 1074 again with a 1054, because the SG in 1074 is not that good.So, got my 2nd 1054z today, HW 0.1.1, same SW as before -> NO freeze!So, there must be a problem in some scopes, 50% work o.k., 50% don't.

author: Shock
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2015, 07:26:22 pm
content: Can't reproduce the freeze up bug.I'm running the defaults on start up and no probes.Set Persis. Time to 100msEnter horizontal zoom modeStill responsive to button presses.Software Version00.04.03Board Version0.1.1Serial NumberDSA1ZA17140XXXXFor reference here is alsetalokin4017'sSerial NumberDAS1ZA17030XXXXI won't bother reading this whole thread but that jump in serial numbers looks like a hardware revision to me or at least somethings changed for Rigol to jump in serial numbers.

author: Penguin36
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2015, 07:33:10 pm
content: Quote from: Shock on August 19, 2015, 07:26:22 pmMine is ...17161XXXX

author: JohnPen
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2015, 07:48:36 pm
content: My DS1054Z is DS1ZA17100XXXX received in UK June this year and does 'freeze'. Already logged on 'freeze' poll.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2015, 09:12:33 pm
content: Quote from: Shock on August 19, 2015, 07:26:22 pmSN's do not normally include HW versions, only model series and build date.

author: Shock
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2015, 12:35:57 am
content: Quote from: tautech on August 19, 2015, 09:12:33 pmYou talking about serial numbers in this specific case or serial numbers generally? As I'm meaning in this specific case there seems to be a pattern.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2015, 01:09:20 am
content: Quote from: Shock on August 20, 2015, 12:35:57 amGenerally.You'll note all HW versions are 0.1.1.Production runs, dates etc are normally encrypted in the SN along the the actual unit # produced.IIRC the jitter issue wasn't related to any HW version and FWs made it go away.Maybe this issue will be the same.

author: alsetalokin4017
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2015, 02:25:42 am
content: Quote from: Shock on August 19, 2015, 07:26:22 pmMemory Depth set to "Auto" ? This appears to be one of the conditions for freezing.What do you get in the file when you ask the scope to save a "Param" file?Storage>Storage>Param and Save to USB stickThe file should contain more information about the software, firmware and board numbers.like:Code:Model:DS1xxxZSN:DS1ZA170xxxxxxManufacturer:RIGOL TECHNOLOGIESBoard Ver:0.1.1Firmware Ver:0.2.3.11BOOT Ver:0.0.1.2CPLD Ver:1.1SoftWare Ver:00.04.03.SP1

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2015, 02:59:06 am
content: Quote from: alsetalokin4017 on August 20, 2015, 02:25:42 amWhat about Power cycles # ?Or is this something Rigol doesn't see as important info?

author: Penguin36
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2015, 06:00:03 am
content: Quote from: alsetalokin4017 on August 20, 2015, 02:25:42 amParam from my DS1054Z which does NOT freeze.Model:DS1xxxZSN:DS1ZA1716xxxxxManufacturer:RIGOL TECHNOLOGIESBoard Ver:0.1.1Firmware Ver:0.2.3.11BOOT Ver:0.0.1.3CPLD Ver:1.1SoftWare Ver:00.04.03.SP1So, only the BOOT Ver is different, and SN of course.

author: alsetalokin4017
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2015, 06:03:50 am
content: Quote from: tautech on August 20, 2015, 02:59:06 amIf there's a way to get the number of power cycles from the scope, I haven't found it yet.Yes, you would think that would be an important bit of information. I certainly would liketo be able to see it.It's also interesting, don't you think, that what we have been calling "firmware" is actually called "software" in the scope, and the real "firmware" is something different, and doesn't get updated, as far as I can tell, when a "firmware update" is installed by the .gel file from a USB stick.

author: alsetalokin4017
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2015, 06:07:57 am
content: Quote from: Penguin36 on August 20, 2015, 06:00:03 amNow that is very interesting indeed. I wonder if that is the case for all scopes that have the bug.I haven't heard anything from Rigol since June 8 when they first replied to me when I notified them about this problem.I also wonder if it is possible to upgrade these other bits and pieces. How can I install a new "BOOT Ver" in my scope? Why does Rigol call the thing we _can_ upgrade, "Software" on the scope, but "firmware" on their support pages?

author: alsetalokin4017
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2015, 07:00:40 am
content: Quote from: PeDre on August 20, 2015, 06:45:58 amYes, I think that's right. But it still doesn't give the number of power cycles. The total "on" time is nice to know though, and is probably just as important as the number of power cycles.

author: Penguin36
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2015, 07:22:05 am
content: Quote from: alsetalokin4017 on August 20, 2015, 07:00:40 amFor my information please, why is the number of power cycles important?

author: Shock
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2015, 07:24:38 am
content: Quote from: alsetalokin4017 on August 20, 2015, 02:25:42 amMemory Depth is set to "Auto" by default on bootup on mine. I did also toggle it at least once while testing and could not reproduce it. I suggest setting your scope to full defaults and trying, as well as doing this next time you complete a firmware update.Model:DS1xxxZSN:DS1ZA17140xxxxManufacturer:RIGOL TECHNOLOGIESBoard Ver:0.1.1Firmware Ver:0.2.3.11BOOT Ver:0.0.1.3CPLD Ver:1.1SoftWare Ver:00.04.03Boot code is different, does it get updated at all by a firmware update?

author: Shock
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2015, 07:34:58 am
content: Quote from: Penguin36 on August 20, 2015, 07:22:05 amNot so important in this case aside from determining how much use it's had or the potential for data corruption, but it's a metric in failure analysis.If you sold an oscilloscope that had a days use on it and a thousand boots it would look very suspicious. Manufacturers love to know this as users often say "I used it now and again now it's broken (sad face)" when they actually drove it into the ground 10hrs a day every day for 5 years straight.

author: JohnPen
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2015, 08:21:45 am
content: My DS1054Z is DS1ZA17100XXXX received in UK June this year and does 'freeze'. Already logged on 'freeze' poll.Update: My boot version is also 0.0.1.2

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2015, 08:22:22 am
content: Quote from: Shock on August 20, 2015, 07:34:58 amExactly.But don't forget these DSO's like any equipment WILL be superseded in time and then potential purchasers will be looking for the DSO that has a low boot count # or low operating hours.

author: Penguin36
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2015, 08:26:09 am
content: Thank you for the answers. I understand that the total runtime is important, but not the number of boots.When I buy a car, I want to know the total km or miles, but not how many times the car has been started.

author: Shock
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2015, 08:48:07 am
content: Quote from: Penguin36 on August 20, 2015, 08:26:09 amI understand your point, but it's still important information despite your analogy, the hobbyist or the "average car buyer" might not care, at least until their new oscilloscope/car engine freezes.

author: Penguin36
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2015, 08:52:17 am
content: Quote from: Shock on August 20, 2015, 08:48:07 amGot that

author: alsetalokin4017
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2015, 09:09:58 am
content: Actually... the car analogy is a good one, because most of the wear on an internal combustion engine occurs within a few minutes of startup, when oil is not fully distributed and parts are undergoing thermal expansion. A car that has 50 thousand miles on the engine, mostly long-duration highway trips at constant RPM, will have much less internal wear than the same model, with 50 thousand miles of short trips to the corner store and back.Something similar happens with electronic gear as well. If a scope has a combination of on-time and startup cycles that indicates it was turned on at 9 am and turned off at 5 pm every day for a year, that scope is probably less stressed than one with the same total time but 10x the number of start cycles, like it was turned on every half-hour during its year of usage. Every time you turn on a piece of electronic gear, it undergoes stresses both thermal and electrical that aren't experienced during constant running. This is especially true of vacuum-tube equipment, and also equipment with moving parts like hard disk drives.Even Rigol specifies that their scopes should be on for at least half an hour before running the self-cal routine, and most anybody who uses scopes and other test equipment knows that allowing a half-hour warmup, even for digital equipment, is good practice before trying to make precise quantitative measurements. If I were buying used test equipment, I'd much rather have high time and low start cycles, than the other way around. Within reason of course.

author: alsetalokin4017
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2015, 09:20:04 am
content: Quote from: Shock on August 20, 2015, 07:24:38 amI think I've done just about every combination of settings possible while researching and documenting this bug and others. I even think I've got a video up showing the bug, starting from "full defaults" as you say and only changing two things: language to English and Persistence to 100 ms, and insuring that "Auto" is set in Mem Depth. And I've documented it with two different firmware versions on my scope. Yes, I tried it immediately after updating to 00.04.03.SP1.As far as I am aware the only thing that gets updated when the user does a "firmware" update with a .gel file is what the scope calls "SoftWare". The other values (board, "Firmware", BOOT, and CPLD) do not change, in any case that I have seen. The Model Number does change when the scope is unlocked, and changes back when the unlocking is removed using the SCPI uninstall command.

author: Shock
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2015, 11:49:51 am
content: Yeah so in case I didn't stress, on your next update restore everything to defaults and power cycle before flashing. That is likely what they do in QA testing, my current money is on boot code version there is definitely something unique in that serial though, possibly geography and batch.

author: Shock
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2015, 04:35:18 pm
content: Did you guys with Boot Ver:0.0.1.2 get your oscilloscopes with a version less than 00.04.00.00.00?*** Warning be careful not to accidentally update trying this ***If you have Boot Ver:0.0.1.2 as a test you could try grabbinghttp://gotroot.ca/rigol/DS1000Z-04_00_00_00.7zThen extract the DS1000ZUpdate.GEL from the Sparrow(Boot)update_00.04.00.00.00 folderCopy it on a formatted FAT32 USB key and then insert into the already booted oscilloscope (see below image).*** Cancel it ***I suspect it pulls the version number from just the .GEL file so it thinks you're already past 00.04.00.00.00 which might be the actual issue. I have no idea what the process is for updating the Boot code or downgrading in general. I wonder if the instructions ever covered it in the past.If that doesn't work perhaps someone who has CCS Code Composer Studio could extract the hex files out of the Boot code .GEL file (no idea if possible) and determine the version from there?Q1: Does anyone know what the bootloader keypress on boot is?Q2: Is there any firmware update since 00.04.00.00.00 that also has Boot code?Version 00.04.03.01.05 Date 2015-06-16Version 00.04.03.00.01 Date 2015-05-05Version 00.04.02.04.07 Date 2014-12-31Version 00.04.02.03.00 Date 2014-10-21Version 00.04.01.02.00 Date 2014-07-28Version 00.04.00.00.00 Date ?Version 00.02.03.05.00 Date ?I'm running Boot Ver:0.0.1.3 so this is what I get when I insert 0.04.00.00.00 Boot code:

author: alsetalokin4017
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2015, 02:07:48 am
content: Well, when I do that I get exactly the same screen.No, my scope was delivered with 00.04.02 "firmware" (what the scope calls "SoftWare"), and I have since updated it several times.What is this supposed to prove?

author: Shock
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2015, 02:44:15 am
content: Quote from: alsetalokin4017 on August 21, 2015, 02:07:48 amWas trying to see if the oscilloscope recognized 00.04.00.00.00 Boot code .GEL file as an upgrade or a downgrade on a BOOT Ver:0.0.1.2 oscilloscope. My suspicion is it does not pull the version number from the Hex file so could actually be BOOT Ver:0.0.1.3 for all we know.

author: rezasurmar
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: October 22, 2015, 07:47:27 am
content: Has anyone tested firmware 00.04.03.01.05 ?https://www.dropbox.com/sh/ph4ff16d9s85tkt/AAA3UeuWQsdGbA_OfDkqiBlVa?dl=0

author: alsetalokin4017
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2015, 02:18:17 pm
content: Quote from: rezasurmar on October 22, 2015, 07:47:27 amYes, many people. This is the "firmware" that the Scope reports as "00.04.03.SP1" on the System Information screen. This SoftWare version may not always reset Mem Depth to "Auto" when the scope starts up, so it may be harder to get the scope to start up frozen, but it is still possible to get the scope to freeze if the conditions are met while the scope is up and running.

author: Fennec
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 27, 2015, 07:41:15 pm
content: I check the new firmware.https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/msg786999/#msg786999https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/msg787154/#msg787154Did a quick check.This firmware is incredible crap !Freeze bug does'nt fixedMath issue does'nt fixed50µs timebase / trigger issue seems to be fixed... Iam not sure, maybe someone else can check it too.BUTI feel the whole scope is much slower.The probe devider setting is a procedure like hell now. Pain in the ass. Useless< My knob is broken.If I turn on all 4 channels and the brightness changes with the memory settings. The channels are flickering now.I play a little with this firmware and change back to SP1 that's for sure./Edited

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 27, 2015, 07:53:21 pm
content: Glad I read around, I was about tobuya 1054Z. It seems to be a complete firmware fuckup, though. Random freezes are not a sign of good code quality, and I don't knowwhatthey're doing with these firmware releases considering they've yet to fix the bugs. Supposedly the DS2k series are much better, which is a bit surprising considering they're probably both done by the same poor programmers.Rigol - the freeze bug should befirst priority. How is it you're unable to fix an obvious bug like this? Someone in your firmware team doesn't know how to manage memory. One of these days it's going to trample on someimportantmemory, like its own whilst performing an upgrade...

author: Fennec
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 27, 2015, 08:21:13 pm
content: Aw, not really. This freeze bug is not really a problem. If you know it, try to not use the 100 persist time.But u are right, few of this issues are much older than 6 month and Rigol didnt fix them ?? Idk why.I bet u will find some issues on the DS2k too. There are much much more ds1054Z on the marked so there are also more user to find the bugs.This scope is fine for the money, idk why I should buy a DS2k.

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 27, 2015, 08:30:25 pm
content: It's fine for the money, if it were a crap brand like Siglent or Hantek or Owon or something - youexpectterrible firmware from them, they've perfected the art of engineering half decent hardware and then having a herd of starving interns in a cage cobble together the firmware while fighting for scraps of bread... Rigol so far, since the 1052E, has had a reputation for putting extra effort into general firmware and UX quality - a reputation they seem to have upheld in the DS2k series, but one it seems they've abused a bit in the DS1kZ. It looks shiny, but it looks like they may have polished a turd.That said, I like Rigol and will probably go on with my purchase of a DS2k. But comeon, guys, fix your shit!

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 28, 2015, 10:16:16 am
content: Quote from: c4757p on October 27, 2015, 07:53:21 pmThe freezing isn't random, it's a particular set of circumstances.You probably won't see it in normal use (I never have).I wouldn't stop buying one because of that.

author: alsetalokin4017
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 28, 2015, 03:54:50 pm
content: Well, I discovered the freezebug in my "normal" use of the scope, but I realize my "normal" might not be the same "normal" as other people's.I agree that this shouldn't prevent someone from purchasing the scope, but at the present time I'm _not_ going to install this latest firmware "update" due to the problems others have reported, and especially since it doesn't seem to fix the two most important bugs: the Math horizontal error and the freeze bug.These bugs only happen with some very specific settings though, so they should not interfere with "normal" use of the scope, especially if you are aware of the conditions. The Math horizontal error is a tricky one, though, and could bite you if you are relying on a correct Math result and inadvertently hit just the right combination of settings to produce it. Or if there is some other combo that we haven't found yet.Come on RIGOL.... get your act together. This is a fine product for the price, and needs properly functioning software to go with it.

author: alsetalokin4017
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 29, 2015, 01:36:51 pm
content: I've just had email from Jason the Rigol USA tech who I notified about the FreezeBug back several months ago. He didn't know about the latest firmware SP2 !!But now he does.

author: Fennec
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2015, 04:53:36 am
content: Quote from: alsetalokin4017 on October 29, 2015, 01:36:51 pmSometimes emails seems to be read.Firmware is official now. (00.04.03.02.03)http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/fs/blocks/showLandingPage/a/1579/p/p-0019/t/page/fm/0

author: RigolUS_Apps
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: October 30, 2015, 08:29:47 pm
content: Hello Everyone,This is Jason Chonko and I am an Applications Engineer at Rigol Technologies USA.We appreciate the passion that the members of EEVBlog have for their products and the community of Test and Measurement.In order to effectively troubleshoot these types of problems, we encourage you to contact your local support offices if you are experiencing issues with any of our products.We believe that the latest software release Version 00.04.03SP2 (00.04.03.02.03 in Engineering Mode) addresses the reported lock up and math bugs.To check and display the full system information:- In the trigger area on the front panel, quickly press MENU > MENU > FORCE > MENU- In the menu area, press UTILITY > SYSTEM > SYSTEM INFO- Save a copy of the display by inserting a USB memory device (FAT32 format) into the front panel USB slot and press the Quick Print iconThe instrument should report that the Software Version is 00.04.03SP2 (identical to 00.04.03.02.03).If it does not, please upgrade your instrument to the latest revision.The latest release of firmware for the DS1000Z series can be requested from this registration page:http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/form/1579/001e:d-0001/0/-/-/-/-/index.htm?If you continue to have difficulties with your oscilloscope, please contact your local Rigol Support Office with the full instrument identification information.Rigol North American Technical Support:http://www.rigolna.com/tech-support/Rigol European Technical Support:http://www.rigol.eu/tech-support/Rigol Support for other geographies:EMD_support@rigol.com

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2015, 08:40:58 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on October 28, 2015, 10:16:16 amWell, I just went and bought one. We'll see... :S

author: GonzoTheGreat
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2015, 09:41:58 pm
content: Quote from: RigolUS_Apps on October 30, 2015, 08:29:47 pm@Alsetalokin4017I tried this release and I don't have the feezebug.How about you?

author: alsetalokin4017
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2015, 09:43:32 pm
content: Er...ahem.... OK..... has anyone tried that procedure described by Jason above, to show all that information on the screen?I tried it before updating (00.04.03.SP1) and it didn't work, I just get the ordinary screen that only shows the usual stuff, not all the other version numbers. So I updated (SP2) and it _still_ doesn't work to show all that information.I am running the self-cal routine now, which typically takes about 16-19 minutes on my scope, and I'll try again and also check on the Bugs.

author: alsetalokin4017
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2015, 09:44:31 pm
content: Quote from: GonzoTheGreat on October 30, 2015, 09:41:58 pmI don't know yet, I just loaded the new firmware and I'm running the self-cal now.Have you tried Jason's instructions for displaying that information screen? What did you get?Were you able to get the freeze, before you upgraded?

author: ankerwolf
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2015, 10:04:49 pm
content: Please read the part about "freeze" here:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/msg789438/#msg789438

author: alsetalokin4017
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2015, 10:35:48 pm
content: OK, SP2 firmware loaded, confirmed on System Info screen as "Software Version 00.04.03.SP2", Horizontal measurements include the Pulse and Edge counters. Self-cal completed, scope restarted, set to Default setup (Storage>Default) then:Testing for Freeze Bug:Turn on all 4 channels (no inputs necessary).Timebase 1 us/div.Go to Acquire menu, select Normal and Mem Depth Auto.Go to Display, select 100 ms Persistence.Push Horizontal Scale knob to enter Zoom mode.... and scope is FROZEN. Does not respond to any controls.Restart by cycling power switch. Scope comes up working normally with all 4 channels on and not in zoom mode.Check Display Persistence = 100 ms, check Acquire Normal and Mem Depth Auto....Push Horizontal Scale knob to enter Zoom mode... and scope is FROZEN. Does not respond to any controls.Cycle Power switch... select Storage>Default. Load saved setup file for Trigger error --- using signal from scope's Probe Calibrator-- Trigger error appears to be GONE!Woohoo!!Load saved setup file for Trigger Zoom error.... Error appears to be GONE!Load setup file for Math Error.... using 320kHz square wave from VCO..... math error STILL THERE, see screenshot below.Executive summary:Screen display of Software Parameters re Jason's instructions: NO.Freeze Bug: STILL PRESENT.Trigger Errors: Fixed.Math Error: STILL PRESENT.Grade: D-

author: alsetalokin4017
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2015, 10:45:06 pm
content: Oh come on. You have got to be kidding me.

author: alsetalokin4017
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 30, 2015, 10:56:37 pm
content: I would have thought this screen should be telling me that there are 0 "-Pluses" or rather zero negative pulses, since all the pulses are clearly positive.

author: Fennec
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2015, 01:26:08 am
content: Quote from: alsetalokin4017 on October 30, 2015, 10:35:48 pmAbsolute the same here./EditQuote from: alsetalokin4017 on October 30, 2015, 09:43:32 pmYepp, nothing, same as before I reset the scope and got the standard info only.Quote from: alsetalokin4017 on October 31, 2015, 03:17:32 amAnd it works.

author: Fennec
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2015, 02:31:50 am
content: Quote from: edavid on October 31, 2015, 02:15:46 amBecause NSA needs data..@alsetalokin4017/EditIts's the fu** Memory Depth again.Set the mem depth to 24M ! Only this setting works.<< My fault.Quote from: alsetalokin4017 on October 31, 2015, 03:17:32 amThat really suckz RIGOL !But thank you for the info anyway.

author: alsetalokin4017
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2015, 03:12:08 am
content: @FennecAre you saying you were able to get that complete information display, by setting Mem Depth to 24M and then following the button-pushing directions?I still can't get mine to do it. Do you have to hold buttons down or something? I've tried many times and I always get the ordinary screen that only shows Model, SN, Software Version and Board Version, not those other versions.Meanwhile, I made another video:

author: alsetalokin4017
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2015, 03:17:32 am
content: Ah.... I finally got mine to do it (and with Mem Depth Auto, too!)You have to push the buttons _fast_. If it doesn't work, push them even faster!

author: Fennec
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2015, 03:28:58 am
content: For me it works with set to 24M only.>>You have to push the buttons _fast_.Idk, I've tried it 78.ooo times, so I think Iam fast enough now :o)I make a Video tomorrow, same like yours.. so we can better compare it.

author: alsetalokin4017
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2015, 03:36:27 am
content: Heh... look at my screen up above. Mem depth 12k points (Auto) !I had to push the buttons very fast.Once it does it once, then I don't have to push the Trigger Menu buttons again. It displays the full information whenever I press Utility>System>System Info, without having to push the Trigger Menu buttons.(Also, it doesn't matter if "hacked" or "unhacked".)

author: Fennec
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2015, 06:44:00 am
content: Quote from: alsetalokin4017 on October 31, 2015, 03:36:27 amYepp, you are right. Maybe I wasn't fast enough for this high speed scope in < 24M depth n 4 channels on.My problem now is, I can't downgrade the firmware back to SP1 easy with a memory stick. Yiik and I have no one free LAN Port.The Scope is useless slow with the actual firmware, I don't like that. Now I know the bugs and deal with the older, but much faster version.And if I think about, I don't really needPLUSES.RigolFor me it is a sign, the Rigol programer has no fun or working on other projects and "fix" the firmware between Coffee n brunch. That's not professional. Crs sure it is a cheap Scope, but a cheap Scope has fully working anyway or if Im wrong ?!btw, the "hidden" reset, resets the power on counter too.

author: alsetalokin4017
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2015, 12:02:55 pm
content: Grr... SO, does anyone know how to roll back to the SP1 firmware (00.04.03.01.05) ? I've tried using the USB stick with the older GEL file and I just keep getting the "Update was failured" Chinglish error message.Oh, I knew I shouldn't have installed this "update". O woe is me, woe is me.

author: Shock
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2015, 03:10:23 pm
content: Quote from: RigolUS_Apps on October 30, 2015, 08:29:47 pmJason, it appears there are two versions of boot firmware sitting on customers scopes (BOOT Ver:0.0.1.2 and BOOT Ver:0.0.1.3). My oscilloscope shipped with 0.0.1.3 boot and 00.04.03.00.01 software, I don't have the freeze issue.Since firmware update 00.04.00.00.00 there doesn't seem to have been an update provided that contains a boot firmware update. I have not tried to unpack that specific version so I cannot see what boot firmware that update contains, however it seems that the software may use thesoftware versionin first line of the boot firmware .GEL file to see if it's a valid newer update.If there have been no hardware refreshes, could it be possible that during manufacturing old boot firmware on oscilloscopes was present but failed being updated because the software had already been updated?There has got to be some reason why people are on BOOT Ver:0.0.1.2.

author: alsetalokin4017
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2015, 03:37:51 pm
content: Quote from: Shock on October 31, 2015, 03:10:23 pmIndeed... and I have some opinions as to what that reason is....1. It appears that Rigol knows that the BOOT Ver. 0.0.1.2. is a _defective product_ else they would not have made scopes with a later version.2. It makes no sense whatsoever that a later firmware version cannot be rolled back and replaced with an older version, should the newer version turn out to be _defective_.3. I want my scope to work properly, and not be loaded with _known defective_ software. The "update" should update ALL known defective softwares in the scope.4. FFS, RIGOL, hire someone who reads, writes and speaks ENGLISH (and someone for each of the other supported languages) to proofread, so that there are not such ridiculous errors as "PLUSES" or "Update was failured!"

author: Orange
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2015, 03:54:29 pm
content: Have a look on this info screen, it has boot version 0.0.0.13 !!! (It was one of the early scopes)Still running firmware from beginning Jan 2015, and so far no real problems detectedI can't reproduce the freeze bug either.To display the full version information:- In the trigger area on the front panel, press MENU > MENU > FORCE > MENU <<< press this sequence very quickly- In the menu area, press UTILITY > SYSTEM > SYSTEM INFO

author: SLJ
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2015, 04:20:59 pm
content: And I was just about to order a Rigol DS1074Z.Is this freeze bug on the newer ones also?

author: ankerwolf
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2015, 04:26:34 pm
content: I have Boot Version 0.0.1.3 with last Update (SP2) and NO Freeze-Bug!

author: SLJ
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2015, 04:36:55 pm
content: At least I know what to look for now as soon as I get it so I can send it right back.

author: Howardlong
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2015, 05:04:17 pm
content: The thing is that even with these firmware features, the DS1054Z remains by far the best value DSO there is. What would be an alternative DSO? If it makes you feel any better, here is my brand new Tek MDO3000 crashing, it's far easier to achieve!If these anomalies are of key concern, then the answer is to go for an older unit with more mature firmware, but with fewer features. Or stick to CROs of course, I still keep a few around but rarely use them nowadays.

author: Orange
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2015, 05:46:34 pm
content: Quote from: Howardlong on October 31, 2015, 05:04:17 pmWell, I would assume that Tek by now has resolved the crashing MDO3000 issues. It was perhaps 1 or 2 years ago, when I saw the MDO3000 on a trade show in Holland, and the guy demonstrating the scope was apologizing for the crashes. Within 10 seconds of demoing the thing was hanging. He replied to me very silent 'I just have loaded new firmware from Tektronix' (from the opposite booth) . Very embarrassing, and certainly not expected for such an expensive scope.

author: SLJ
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2015, 05:47:50 pm
content: Here's my older unit. Still going strong. Firmware not required.Now to find a buyer for the DS1102E. Should be able to get a few bucks for it.

author: Howardlong
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2015, 06:05:28 pm
content: Quote from: Orange on October 31, 2015, 05:46:34 pmRegrettably, no. This is the latest firmware from May this year, I did the video earlier today. If the software behind it is in a similar state of disorganisation to the UI, I could imagine that trying to identify and fix bugs in the MDO3000 is a thankless task. I still use it frequently because of a single redeeming feature: it's very convenient to swing around the bench, it has a standard TV style VESA mount so it's on a gas spring mount, takes up zero bench space as a result. Being able to liberate it to 500MHz (among other options) is nice too of course, I wouldn't have made the purchase otherwise.Back to the Rigol, I was trying to see if I could detect additional sluggishness, and I would say subjectively yes, the new firmware does seem more sluggish particularly when adjusting channel offset.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2015, 06:34:31 pm
content: Quote from: SLJ on October 31, 2015, 04:36:55 pmWhy take the risk? Much safer to spend $1500 on a "professional" 'scope. (which will also have bugs).

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2015, 06:36:50 pm
content: Quote from: Howardlong on October 31, 2015, 05:04:17 pmANd none of the problems are showstoppers. They're very specific and you'll probably never see them in general use.

author: Howardlong
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2015, 06:58:54 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on October 31, 2015, 06:36:50 pmIf I may add that while I agree these bugs are of course annoying, and Rigol could fix them if they chose to, I am sure that in some respects Rigol is a victim of its own success. The DS1000Z series probably outsells any other bench scope family by an order of magnitude at the moment, there are bound to be more people pressing more buttons, revealing more problems that will more likely be aired in public as a result.As an aside, a bugbear of mine is the mentality of adding new, often largely superfluous or gratuitous features, while choosing to completely ignore existing bugs. Often it is not the software guys, it's the bean counters who have allocated development budget but not bug fix budget, bean counters don't see bug fixing as a revenue generator because no one can figure out how to put a value on it in a spreadsheet. The additional measurements Rigol have added are an example. The icing on the cake is that they introduced a new bug as a result, albeit minor

author: Scottjd
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2015, 07:04:01 pm
content: Quote from: SLJ on October 31, 2015, 04:20:59 pmI got mine 4 months ago. It also has the 0.0.1.3 boot-board 0.1.1 and I've been running SP1 without any issues. I've tried several time to reproduce this freeze up but and can't.I did have a few freezes before in stalled SP1, but since SP1 it's been stable and inning good.I'd say it's safe to buy one if your buying new from a vendor that has recent stock. My was from TEquiptment.net.

author: alsetalokin4017
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2015, 08:21:52 pm
content: Funny you should say that. I first ordered my scope from TEquipment back in February, and had to wait until April to actually get it, because they were sold out and also delayed because of the dock strike on the west coast. And that scope turned out to be defective, had a bad hardware-related glitch on CH4. To their credit TEquipment got a replacement to me in less than a week... BUT.... the replacement scope had a much _earlier_ serial number than the original one and didn't come double-boxed like the first one did. Unfortunately I don't know the Boot Version of the first, glitchy scope that I returned. I have a lingering suspicion that the one I have now didn't come in the April shipment received by TEquipment but may have been an earlier delivery that they somehow turned up and repackaged for me.Be that as it may, I want my scope to work properly, and if that means I need to have Boot Ver 0.0.1.3 instead of 0.0.1.2... then I would appreciate it if Rigol would supply me with an upgrade that would install the later Boot Version and fix this issue. And at least 32 other people here probably would also like this to happen.For those who aren't able to make their scopes freeze, please check your Boot Versions and report in. As I've shown in my most recent video, linked up above, it is very easy to get the freeze to happen, if your scope is susceptible to it. Just start from the Default setup (Storage>Default). Turn on all four channels, you don't need to separate the traces as I did in the video. Make sure that Acquire is Normal and Mem Depth is Auto. Set Display>Persis.Time>100 ms. Then press the Horizontal Scale knob to enter the Zoom mode. That works for me 100 percent of the time to make the scope freeze.But what about the Math error, which makes me have no faith in the Math, and isn't fixed, for me at least, by the new firmware? Is that also related somehow to the earlier Boot Version?And is there really no way to uninstall the SP2 and roll back to the SP1 firmware? That's really a foul thing if true.

author: l84coffee
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: October 31, 2015, 09:16:31 pm
content: I bought mine at the end of Sept. It has boot version 0.0.1.3. and I haven't been able to get mine to freeze either.Stan

author: SLJ
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2015, 09:29:51 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on October 31, 2015, 06:34:31 pmBecause the DS1054Z is more than sufficient for my use and there are several other places I'd rather spend the difference in price.

author: Scottjd
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2015, 09:42:29 pm
content: Quote from: alsetalokin4017 on October 31, 2015, 08:21:52 pmMine also came single boxed after they got stock back in, that's when I bought it. I remember another glitch with an oscillating interference back then, but SP1 fixed it.Well I broke out the cheap F-generator ($20 transitory tester) to test the math and ended up cleaning the lab, good news is the scope of warmed up for sure since I didn't turn it off. Since I sit out everything away I'm just going to use the F-generator and onboard test signal to see if the math is an issue on mine. I think it will work, I don't recall you saying anything about a specific kind of signal or frequency for that buy in the video. Someday I'll but a real function generator, it's on the list.I don't want to try SP2 because of the sluggishness, sorry. But I'll report back on the math bug.

author: Marcos
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2015, 10:02:12 pm
content: I just wonder if Rigol tested the new crappy firmware on any of their scopesIf so, how it's possible to release to public such an unfinished software which creates more problems than the previous one ?

author: Fennec
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2015, 10:14:08 pm
content: Quote from: Scottjd on October 31, 2015, 09:42:29 pmYa, that's my problem now. Okay, this scope IS slow, butnowfor me it is not useable with SP2 and can't set it back to SP1. I can deal with the few bugs because I know about them. It's not really nice, but for this $US400 scope, okay for me.I sleep a few days maybe weeks about it, look what happens here in the forum. Then I send the scope back asdamaged device. (Bootloader 1.1.2) and hope got a version with 1.1.3 and SP1 firmware.I am really pi*** off at the moment about this freaking Rigol action.

author: Marcos
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 31, 2015, 10:45:13 pm
content: Quote from: Orange on October 31, 2015, 03:54:29 pmSo,Orangehave 0.0.0.13version , whilel84coffeehave 0.0.1.3version .Does these looks the same for you guys ?Also, if anyone has an locked 100Mhz scope, please post your boot version here please.I got a feeling that the Boot Version is changed once the 100Mhz option is unlockedEdit: wrong presumption, unrelated@alsetalokin4017Is your new scope received before September 2015 ?I noticed that the Build Date in your screen is September 2015 (same asFennec)but based on your posts (not sure) it was received in April. If so, you have received a scope from FUTURE?Confusing.Am I missing something here?Edit : Yes, I'm missing. Build Date is not equivalent with Manufacture Date

author: Fennec
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2015, 12:33:35 am
content: Quote from: Marcos on October 31, 2015, 10:45:13 pmYes, becausehefound and posted the freeze bug½ year ago.Quote from: Marcos on October 31, 2015, 10:45:13 pmThe build date is the firmware build date. It has nothing to do with the scope itself.Seems like, my scope has arrived in April too. 2nd charge.>>Confusing. Am I missing something here?Ask me...

author: Scottjd
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2015, 05:45:42 am
content: So I had a video call with someone else that has a 1054Z. I had him pull the boot loader and it was 0.1.2, and running SP1.So I told him how to do the freeze and it didn't lock up. I had him shut down, restart the scope and try it again, and no lock up. But I will say it got a slow at first when he zoomed in both time like it was just about to freeze, but it didn't. After about 10 seconds it started responding as expected.His was also bought after the stock shortage and he waited for his to come back in stock, mine was 2 months after his but I got boot 0.1.3. Maybe he got the last of the 0.1.2 in stock?Mine does not even start to slow down when I do it, but his almost became unresponsive both times for the first few seconds.I will note his is running at 100Mhz and some other options turned on, not sure if that helped it prevent locking up?

author: kolbep
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2015, 07:04:24 am
content: I am just curious.In your picture (which is nice resolution btw)Your inputs are paralleled on the scope,and the Volts/div are set the sameBut the 2 traces have different amplitude?What would cause thatQuote from: SLJ on October 31, 2015, 05:47:50 pm

author: crispy_tofu
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2015, 07:23:18 am
content: Look a bit more closelyThe V/div is set to different positions

author: Marcos
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2015, 08:32:40 am
content: Quote from: Fennec on November 01, 2015, 12:33:35 amI'm using the same firmware and the build date is May 2015./Edit: My bad, it was the previous version (SP1)Oh boy, what a mess !

author: Fennec
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2015, 10:53:23 am
content: Quote from: Marcos on November 01, 2015, 08:32:40 amI believe you have 00.04.03.00.01 (May/5/2015) andnotthe actual firmware. Pls make a pic of your settings with MENU > MENU > FORCE > MENU > UTILITY > SYSTEM > SYSTEM INFO@ScottjdAll options installed, without 500µV 1rst picRemoved all options 2nd & 3rd picFreeze and Math bug still thereDowngrade SP2 > SP1 not possible

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2015, 10:59:12 am
content: Current state with latest firmware (00.04.03.SP2, from Sep 11 2015)No freezing on mine.No math bug either.Pluses typo is present.It is a bit sluggish when all 4 channels active in Zoom, but still usable.All options installed except 500uV.FWIW, it arrived at my door 19 Nov. 2014.

author: Fennec
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2015, 11:31:45 am
content: Hmm, the different is the 2nd part of Build Date only.And you are sure you can't activate that freeze bug ? Pls watch the Video and try it again, maybe you made a mistake.If I turn on all channels without zoom, I have to wait SECONDS between turn the knob and the trace moves ! Thats not usable. 100-200ms maybe, but not 1-2s

author: alsetalokin4017
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2015, 02:18:56 pm
content: Quote from: Marcos on October 31, 2015, 10:45:13 pmNo, the Boot Ver remains the same whether the scope is locked or unlocked. At least mine does. And the scope will freeze whether 50MHz and no options, or 100 MHz and all options "official".QuoteNo, I got my scope from the PAST, evidently.As Fennec says, I got my scope in April. The Build Date refers to the SP2 firmware (what the scope calls "SoftWare Version"). The numbers after the build date have something to do with the total running time of the scope, I think.

author: alsetalokin4017
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2015, 02:58:14 pm
content: I'm prepared to believe that scopes with Boot Ver 0.0.1.3don't have the Freeze Bug. But I'm confused as to why some people with Boot Ver 0.0.1.2can't reproduce it either.Here are simple instructions, again, that always work for me.1. Power on scope. When it has finished booting up:2. Go to Storage and press Default (at bottom of first Storage menu page) to load the Default setup. This should turn on only CH1, 1 V/div, 1.00 us/div, etc.--This step is just to make sure we are all starting from the same place.--3. Go to Acquire and make sure that Normal mode is set and Mem Depth is Auto.--This should already be set by the Default setup but check anyhow.--4. Turn on all 4 channels.--It is not necessary to separate the traces vertically.--5. Go to Display and set Persis. Time to 100 ms.--Actually any Persis.Time other than "min" will also cause freezing.--6. Press the Horizontal Scale knob to enter Horizontal Zoom mode.--- my scope freezes here 100 percent of the time. ---For the Math trace bug in its most basic form, the scope must be set to 500 ns/div timebase, so you should have a square wave signal source that produces a few pulses that will be visible at that fast setting. 350 kHz or so. (The Math bug will show up at other timebases too, and in the Zoom mode, if you have a complex signal displayed.)1. Power on scope. When it finishes booting:2. Storage>Default3. Turn on all four channels. Separate traces vertically.--If you have SP2 installed this will take some time, and a light touch on the Vertical Position knob.---4. Set Horizontal to 500 ns/div.5. In Acquire, set Average mode and Averages to 2, Mem Depth Auto.6. Connect Ch1 and CH2 probes to your signal source. It's easiest to use the same source for both channels. Adjust Trigger Level and Vertical Scale settings for a nice display.7. Press the MATH button twice. In Operator, select A+B, or A*B. (Other operations may also produce the error.) In SourceA, select CH1. In SourceB, select CH2.8. Now press Operation to turn the Math trace ON. Use Scale to control the vertical amplitude of the Math trace. You should see something like the screen below:(Or rather... you should NOT see such an error UNLESS your scope has the Math Bug still.)(For an added treat, in Measure select Source>Math and then display the "+Pulses" item. Insert FacePlam here.)

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2015, 02:59:20 pm
content: Quote from: kolbep on November 01, 2015, 07:04:24 amBelieve it or not those 'scopes have separate volts/div settings for each channel.

author: alsetalokin4017
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2015, 03:36:07 pm
content: O RLY RIGOL?This is starting to get really ridiculous.

author: JohnPen
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2015, 03:38:40 pm
content: From June 2015 New Rigol DS1054ZPost 1525Further information on the 'freeze' condition. I have tried a few other checks on recovery from a 'freeze' see below.Start conditions: 1khz calibrate signal on CH1, 120kpts, normal display, 100msec PersistenceTimebase in usec. Time taken for Delayed to go to ON state.500 ~1 sec200 ~2-3 sec100 ~4 sec50 ~6-7 sec20 ~30 sec10 ~40 sec *5 ~35 minutes1 I hate to think!* Incidentally the screen display highlight for the button takes some 10 secs to appear followed another 30 sec to become active again. The highlighting always precedes the becoming active condition.It would appear that wherever the f/w goes it recovers but whatever looping condition is involved the timebase period is impacting on the termination time of the loop. Each timebase increment increases the sampling rate and presumably extends the data storage requirements in some way,perhaps there are many 100 msec persistences, being stored! Until that all completes and says ok nothing further happens! I will try some more thoughts out later.and Post 1527It would seem that a relationship between the Sampling rate and the 'freeze' condition does exist see below:TB usec Sampling Rate Msa/s Delayed ON secs500 10 ~1200 25 ~2-3100 50 ~450 125 ~6-720 250 ~3010 500 ~405 1,000 ~35 minutesI will try these checks again for the latest firmware to see if there is any change.

author: alsetalokin4017
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2015, 03:55:54 pm
content: @JohnPen: As I said when you first reported those things, no amount of waiting will "unfreeze" a truly Frozen scope, and the bug I'm talking about happens when Mem Depth is set to Auto, not 120kpts, and with three or four channels turned on. The 1 us/div timebase is set automatically in the Default setup, so perhaps your "hate to think" is actually.... forever.But thank you for your report. What Boot Version is your scope running?

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2015, 04:51:55 pm
content: I think I'm going to give this update a miss...

author: Wirehead
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2015, 05:00:54 pm
content: No FreezeNo Math issueNo noticeable slow-down with SP2I can live with the spelling errorI'm a happy camper.

author: JohnPen
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2015, 05:01:43 pm
content: There has been a change in some of the hang times in the first list. Most noticeable it has decreased for the 20usec TB to 22 secs and the 10usec TB to 35 sec. The second list for 20usec drops to 10 sec response and the 5usec drops from 35 minutes to 3 min 30sec. I agree Auto is the real problem the other tests were just to see how things changed with various sample rates and with a fixed memory depth. My boot is 0.0.1.2 like yourself. My recent resets seem to have cancelled the extended System Info list and so far I haven't got it back. Originally I managed it almost the first time! Also my freeze never needed more than a single channel just the 100ms persistence, Auto memory management and into 'Delayed/Zoom' . I have the MATHs issue and the spelling.

author: alsetalokin4017
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2015, 05:23:20 pm
content: Quote from: Wirehead on November 01, 2015, 05:00:54 pmI see you have Boot Ver 0.0.1.3, lucky you.For the Math error, did you follow my directions exactly? Do you have "Average" Acquire mode set?Does your "Pluse" counter miscount when you have 500 ns/div, ten "pluses" displayed and three or four channels turned on?Would you be happy showing the "Pluses" spelling error on a data screen to a client who is paying you money to do some work for him?

author: alsetalokin4017
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2015, 05:26:30 pm
content: Quote from: JohnPen on November 01, 2015, 05:01:43 pmYou have to press the Trigger Menu>Menu>Force>Menu>>Utility>System>System Info sequence _really fast_. But on mine, once it does it once, then I always get the full System Info and I don't have to do the Trigger Menu sequence any more.

author: Karel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2015, 05:57:00 pm
content: With 00.04.03.SP1 I could not reproduce the freeze bug (maybe I did something wrong, don't know anymore).After updating to 00.04.03.SP2 I do have the freeze bug. Scope feels more sluggish as well.I tried to go back to older firmware, got an error.sn DS1ZA17xxxxxxxfirmware version 00.04.03.02.03board version 0.1.1boot version 0.0.1.2firmware version 0.2.3.11CPLD version 1.1build date Sep 11 2015 09:42:31 | 0 0:4 / 4 0:38

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2015, 06:10:32 pm
content: Quote from: Shock on October 31, 2015, 03:10:23 pmI have boot version 0.0.1.1

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2015, 06:14:00 pm
content: So how does it feel when rigol is wasting your time that you could otherwise spent working on your projects. Still think your purchase was "best for the buck" ?

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2015, 06:16:40 pm
content: Quote from: Bud on November 01, 2015, 06:14:00 pmYes!

author: alsetalokin4017
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2015, 06:19:22 pm
content: So what do we know at this point...1. The scopes with Boot Version 0.0.1.3 do not seem to have the Freeze Bug.2. The Freeze Bug is _not_ fixed by the new SP2 firmware on susceptible scopes that have the 0.0.1.2 Boot Version.3. The Math Error is _not_ fixed by the new SP2 firmware on at least some scopes. Boot Version dependence isn't known at this point.4. The SP2 firmware causes at least some scopes to respond more slowly to control inputs, especially when all 4 channels are turned on.5. The SP2 firmware has that stupid "Pluses" spelling error.6. The "Pluses" counter miscounts in certain situations, like when 3 or 4 channels are turned on and timebase is set to 500 ns/div and 10 "pluses" are displayed.7. There doesn't seem to be any way to revert back to SP1 once the SP2 firmware is installed.8. Installing the firmware update does not change the scope's Boot Version to the latest version.9. You have to press the key sequence _really really fast_ to get the full System Info screen.10. It doesn't matter if the scope is "unlocked" with all options "official" and 100MHz bw, or if it is "stock" with 50 MHz bw and no options enabled.11. Installing the SP2 firmware does not interfere with the "unlocking" of the options and increased bw.Any comments or additions?

author: alsetalokin4017
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2015, 06:28:02 pm
content: Quote from: Bud on November 01, 2015, 06:14:00 pmThe scope has become my project at this point. Yes, I do feel that it is still a good value for the money, and if we continue to explore and identify the bugs _and if_ Rigol manages to fix them, it will be a great product. I wouldn't send mine back for a refund, but I might demand to send it back for a replacement that has the correct Boot Version on it and that does not lock up in normal use, and that has trustworthy Math performance.But I certainly would NOT recommend installing the SP2 firmware at this point. You can always count your "pluses" manually. I wish there was some way to uninstall the SP2 firmware and go back to the well-understood (by me anyway) SP1 version. And I wish that a firmware update would also put the newest Boot Version on the scopes. It is rather asinine that it does not.It's interesting, is it not, that the SP2 firmware has a "build date" in mid September, but has only been released to users at the end of October.... and still it has that stupid "Pluses" error and the other problems.

author: l84coffee
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: November 01, 2015, 07:02:51 pm
content: Quote from: Bud on November 01, 2015, 06:14:00 pmThe real question is, if you are one of the un-fortunate ones that do have the freeze problem. In day to day usage of the scope how many times do you think you would be using the scope in the parameters that would cause it to freeze?For me even though I don't experience the freeze problem, I would have never experienced it as I doubt I would have set up my scope in such a way to experience it.Warts and all I still think it's a great scope for the price point.Stan.

author: alsetalokin4017
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2015, 07:14:58 pm
content: Quote from: l84coffee on November 01, 2015, 07:02:51 pmI've just shot a new video showing how easy it is to encounter the Freeze Bug in actual usage. It should be up and ready to view in an hour or so (after processing and uploading to YT).Situation: Looking at a mosfet Gate signal on one channel and the Drain signal on the other channel, just 2 channels in use. Acquire mode normal, mem depth auto, timebase set appropriately for the 10 kHz signal to display a train of around 5 pulses (50 us/div). Trigger on falling edge of Gate pulse. Drain signal has a spike and ringdown. Enter Zoom mode to see the spike and ringdown at higher resolution. Notice that there is a little jitter on the Drain signal, so it would be nice to add a little persistence to see the extent of the jitter. Select Display>PersisTime>100 ms... and boom, scope is frozen.Now what is unreasonable, unusual or otherwise not normal about that usage? Should one not use the normal operating features of the scope for fear of the dreaded Freeze Bug?

author: Karel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2015, 07:21:44 pm
content: Quote from: l84coffee on November 01, 2015, 07:02:51 pmI never stumbled over this freeze bug. I have to say however, I don't use the scope much. For me, my work is my hobby and there I use a DS6104. I bought the DS1054Z just for fun, to put it next to my pc monitor. I haven't connect it so far to some real circuit. For me it's just a gadget, like other people who bought a smartphone or ipad. I prefer this toy instead.So far I think it's the best scope for hobbyists.

author: Howardlong
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2015, 07:42:30 pm
content: Quote from: alsetalokin4017 on November 01, 2015, 07:14:58 pmWhile I'm by no means excusing the freeze, it's extremely rare for me to need to use display persistence, in fact I can't ever remembering using it on a general purpose scope other than for demonstrating a scope feature. If I see some jitter, I am not sure how much value adding persistence is: either it's OK (maybe interrupt latency for example) or it's not, although I guess if you want documentary evidence I can see it could be of value. (I'm assuming this is real jitter and not the scope of course!). I fully accept YMMV of course.I do applaud you for using pretty much every feature on this scope, Rigol should pay you to rest their stuff!

author: alsetalokin4017
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2015, 08:14:46 pm
content: I completely agree with that last part!But don't you remember Dave's great videos about this scope, where he was ecstatic about the great intensity graded display variable persistence feature? It's one of the things that makes this scope such a good value. Why not use it when you can? Unless of course it makes the scope freeze up in normal (my normal) use of the scope.

author: alsetalokin4017
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2015, 08:45:46 pm
content: FWIW....

author: Scottjd
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2015, 11:23:09 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on November 01, 2015, 06:10:32 pmI think it's because you have an "EVIL" number of start up cycles.

author: Howardlong
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 01, 2015, 11:42:46 pm
content: Quote from: alsetalokin4017 on November 01, 2015, 08:14:46 pmI may be mistaken, but usually it's intensity gradient, not persistence that Dave bangs on about? Persistence != intensity gradient.

author: Loboscope
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 02, 2015, 12:03:53 am
content: I followed EXACTLY the instructions mentioned above and my DS1104Z (true 100 MHz) does not show the freeze and/or the math bug. It also did not show these bugs with earlier software versions.The software Version is the newest 00.04.03.02.03 (= 04.03 SP2)Board Version: 0.1.1Boot Version: 0.0.1.0 (!)Firmware Version 0.2.3.11CPLD Version: 1.1I did not check the "pluses"-error because it would not bother me. I use the scope only for my own service and maintenance purpose (mostly audio gear) and not in a commercial way for clients, so i am not upset about the spelling error. (By the way, how many EE´s, who use their scopes for commercial tasks an for clients will use only such a little and inexpensive scope like the DS1000Z? I guess, they would prefer normally much more expensive and feature rich scopes like LeCroy, Keysight etc.)

author: Fennec
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 02, 2015, 12:45:28 am
content: I think it doesn't matter how much a scope cost. If it's a cheap DS1000Z series or an one million bucks LeCroy. It has to work, simple.For example. U buy a brand new car, a $US 15.000 Honda maybe and the ash tray is damaged, u are not smoking.. What are u doing ? I bet you go to a Honda customer and let fix this. And now you won in the lottery and buy a Bentley with the same cheap broken ash-tray.... What u do ? Live with it ? I bet not.Why nobody should use this DS1054Z as a "prfessional" ? If you repair Tape-Decks, Recorder and something like that you can do it with this cheap DS1054Z absolutly professional. You don't need a one million LeCroy for that. But the Scope has to work correctly. With a damaged one million LeCroy nobody can repair the Tape-Deck, but you can do it with a working cheap Rigol.Cheap or expencive,it has to work correctly, thats all.Pls can you post a screenshot with all the Infos. Thx.

author: alsetalokin4017
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 02, 2015, 01:12:26 am
content: Sometimes I get the feeling that I'm the only one who is actually trying to _use_ the scope every day for its intended purposes.Or maybe I'm wrong about that... maybe the actual intended purpose of the scope is just to sit next to the computer monitor and make pretty colored squiggly lines.

author: alsetalokin4017
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 02, 2015, 01:18:09 am
content: Quote from: Loboscope on November 02, 2015, 12:03:53 amGood for you. I don't think anyone has ever accused the DS1104Z of having the bugs we have been talking about here, though. See the title of this thread? Did you vote in the poll, even though you don't have the right scope to do so, I wonder?Certainly I would prefer to have a much more expensive and feature rich scope for my work. Would you like to buy one for me? No... I'll bet not. So I'll continue to use what I can afford, and try to work around the seemingly _ever increasing_ bug load.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 02, 2015, 05:16:54 am
content: Quote from: Fennec on November 02, 2015, 12:45:28 amI can tell you've never bought a new car.

author: Wirehead
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 02, 2015, 06:10:09 am
content: Quote from: alsetalokin4017 on November 01, 2015, 05:23:20 pmForgot the averaging - my apologies. It does have the skew in timebase (result is 1 div to the right) if averaging is set. Seems more like a cosmetic mistake; as the actual calculation is correct.My pulse counter is correct - maybe it's due to ringing on the square wave with you(as the pictogram actually shows this counts as well...). I'm testing with a clean sine wave, and it's just fine. Again; the "pluses" error doesn't bother me. If I would write a report to a client (I'm not in electronic engineering as work; but in IT) - I would make note of the pulses in my document that goes along with the screenshot in that case. I bet most of my clients would be able to count the "bigger waveforms" (e.g. not the ringing) without problems...I've attached a screenshot - 9 full pulses in the screenshot. It adjusts it correctly if I change the frequency.For others reading all this about the DS1000Z series: although thismightlook bad: It's still anawesome scope for the money. There's currently nothing on the market price/performance-wise that's better than this. Don't let this put you off. I fully agree the freezing issue is annoying (it's fixed in the newer bootcodes btw!!); but hey; It's bound to be fixed in the end for the older ones, and if you know the limitation, it's easy enough NOT to run into it (there's a lot more expensive scopes on the market, even from big names, that have way more issues). As to the math issue in combination with averaging; to me, it's more a cosmetic issue. The math is actually correct. If I calculate A+B; I kind of know what to expect (you still have to interpret whatever you see - I don't see you guys driving off a cliff because your GPS said so...) ; so If it's skewed in time due to calculation; It's not a big deal to me...

author: edavid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 02, 2015, 06:42:59 am
content: Quote from: alsetalokin4017 on November 02, 2015, 01:18:09 amHow could it not have the same bugs as the DS1054Z? Isn't the hardware and firmware exactly the same?

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 02, 2015, 07:15:49 am
content: Quote from: edavid on November 02, 2015, 06:42:59 amNot all DS1054Z owners have been able to reproduce the bug either.

author: Karel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 02, 2015, 07:36:15 am
content: Quote from: alsetalokin4017 on November 02, 2015, 01:12:26 amIn my case, it is...

author: Howardlong
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 02, 2015, 08:02:54 am
content: Quote from: alsetalokin4017 on November 02, 2015, 01:12:26 amNo, I just think that you have invested a lot of time learning all that this scope has to offer, and choose to use all of its functionality, much of it at the same time. Personally speaking, the Rigol is not my main scope, I use it when off site due to its diminutive size and features (I have the MSO1074Z-S with the LA and signal generator). In addition if it gets broken or lost, it's not as big a deal as a $20k scope. I too have found some less than desirable features, such as mis-triggering on he LA, but I can live with them. I certainly don't use all the features like pass-fail or persistence like you do, but then in my line of work I haven't found a need of these features in a general purpose scope.Again, that is not excusing the bugs, particularly the freezing, which can have a serious impact on your workflow, you end up spending hours debugging your scope and not your DUT.

author: Howardlong
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 02, 2015, 08:07:32 am
content: Quote from: Fennec on November 02, 2015, 12:45:28 amAfter all, you can always buy a Tek MDO3000 for over 10x the price and still enjoy those freezes, just in a much more reassuringly expensive way! ;-)

author: Loboscope
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 02, 2015, 09:42:13 am
content: I am happy, because my DS1104Z still works as it should work. If it would freeze periodically, I would call it defect and I would return it.The math-bug (whitch it does not show) would be a borderline defect for me, certainly a bug, but not a real failure, because I could work with it. The "pluses"-bug is a bit irritating but it does not effect the usefullness of the scope.And the DS1000Z-Series is a very useful and wonderful entry-level scopes series with the most "bang for the bucks"!Sure it can be used in a professional way, but you should know its limitations. If you buy a cheap little car instead of a grand, luxurious limousine you shold not expect the comfort on the road, the road-handling, the smooth steering etc. of the grand car. It is not, because the little car is defect, it is because of physics. But you did only pay a fraction of the limousine-price! And knowing how to drive you will go down well to any destination the limousine can reach (perhaps even more because you will easier find parking spaces for the little car).

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 02, 2015, 12:43:59 pm
content: Quote from: Bud on November 01, 2015, 06:14:00 pmIf you're willing to buy me a Keysight or Tek as a gift, I'll gladly take it. But don't put down and look down upon people who've chosen a cheaper product, you never know what their reasons are. (For example, electronics is what I've been doing to pass the time while taking a health related leave from employment and deciding what my next career might be. With zero income, buying top of the line test gear is perhaps not the best use of my money.)

author: John Coloccia
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 02, 2015, 01:15:41 pm
content: Quote from: Bud on November 01, 2015, 06:14:00 pmFeels like I got a small, compact scope I use every day, and I don't ever run into any of these bugs...and all for less than $400. So it feels pretty good, actually. So how does it feel that you keep making these disruptive posts in the Rigol threads and no one "gives a crap"?Give it a rest already. The Rigol is a steal, even with a handful of bugs.

author: RigolUS_Apps
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: November 02, 2015, 04:45:33 pm
content: Quote from: Shock on October 31, 2015, 03:10:23 pmThank you, Shock. We really need people experiencing issues to report the full version page to their local service office. We can then compile the differences and give our Engineering team as much information as we can.If you are experiencing the issue, I would like to ask that you please follow the directions below:To check and display the full system information:- In the trigger area on the front panel, quickly press MENU > MENU > FORCE > MENU- In the menu area, press UTILITY > SYSTEM > SYSTEM INFO- Save a copy of the display by inserting a USB memory device (FAT32 format) into the front panel USB slot and press the Quick Print iconThe instrument should report that the Software Version is 00.04.03SP2 (identical to 00.04.03.02.03).If it does not, please upgrade your instrument to the latest revision.The latest release of firmware for the DS1000Z series can be requested from this registration page:http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/form/1579/001e:d-0001/0/-/-/-/-/index.htm?If you continue to have difficulties with your oscilloscope, please contact your local Rigol Support Office with the full instrument identification information.Rigol North American Technical Support:http://www.rigolna.com/tech-support/Rigol European Technical Support:http://www.rigol.eu/tech-support/Rigol Support for other geographies:EMD_support@rigol.com

author: edavid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 02, 2015, 04:54:49 pm
content: Quote from: RigolUS_Apps on November 02, 2015, 04:45:33 pmWhy should people have to go through this silly dance to get the full system information? Why isn't full information the default?QuoteWhy don't you provide the actual download link? Other Rigol employees don't seem to have a problem doing so. No one wants to fill out that stupid form.Anyway, what is the story with the original freeze-up bug? Was it reproduced by engineering? Do they know if it's related to the boot loader version as Mr. 4017 believes?

author: RigolUS_Apps
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: November 02, 2015, 06:20:36 pm
content: Hello edavid,The full system information is useful in providing additional build details about the specific instrument in question. There can be multiple differences on the same platform and having those details can help the Engineers find the root of the problem more quickly.The full system information is not displayed normally because it is generally not required for day-to-day operation. The normal system info screen is designed to provide just enough detail to solve any pertinent questions that may arise (does this firmware version have a particular feature, for example).Some situations require more information to help isolate a particular cause or incompatibility. That is why there is a more detailed view available.In this case, this lock up bug appears to be intermittent. Since it is not tied solely to a specific firmware revision, we need more information to isolate the cause and find a solution.We are collecting this information and forwarding it to our Engineering department for review.

author: SLJ
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 02, 2015, 06:22:19 pm
content: Quote from: edavid on November 02, 2015, 04:54:49 pmYour answer is on the form: To request an upgrade please fill out the information below and we will contact you.Upgrade compatibility may depend on the serial number, hardware revisions and current firmware of your instrument. Not all instruments may be upgradable to the latest firmware.If they just provided links you can bet some would try to upgrade when they shouldn't and that could be a problem. Of course the upgrade should check for compatibility but who knows.

author: edavid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 02, 2015, 06:45:14 pm
content: Quote from: RigolUS_Apps on November 02, 2015, 06:20:36 pmWhat would be the harm in providing the full information all the time? Do you think Rigol owners would freak out if they saw those extra fields?Or if you insist on having 2 modes, why not make the full information option visible, instead of requiring the undocumented, hard to execute dance step?QuoteWhy don't you swap out 4017's scope and send it to engineering, since it shows the problem deterministically?

author: edavid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 02, 2015, 06:47:48 pm
content: Quote from: SLJ on November 02, 2015, 06:22:19 pmThis is just not true for the DS1054Z. There is only one version of the firmware, which is compatible with all of the units that have been shipped. That's why other Rigol employees do post the download link, just not our new poster Mr. Anonymous RigolUS_Apps.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 02, 2015, 07:14:25 pm
content: Quote from: alsetalokin4017 on November 01, 2015, 06:19:22 pmI don't have it with boot 0.0.1.1(but personally I think the boot version is a red herring, I think there's something more sinister going on here)

author: giovannirat
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 02, 2015, 08:15:17 pm
content: Boot Ver 0.0.1.2 can't reproduce the freeze bug.......

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 02, 2015, 08:59:59 pm
content: Quote from: edavid on November 02, 2015, 06:47:48 pmI think you best have another look at this supposed newbies profile.Registered since June 2012 and it takes three years to start offering customers support.

author: Marcos
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 02, 2015, 09:27:40 pm
content: Dear RigolUSA , the fact that mostly scopes with Boot Vers : 0.0.1.2 have this freeze bug isn't enough for your Engineers to have a starting point for finding the problem ?You said earlier that the new firmware "hopefully" will fix the bug. HopefullyYour engineers are fixing bugs "guessing" that it may fix it or not ? Did they even bothered to test the new firmware into a scope who has the freeze bug ?You should consider your latest firmware a beta version since it's not fixing anything, just adding more problems.

author: John Coloccia
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 02, 2015, 09:36:19 pm
content: Quote from: RigolUS_Apps on November 02, 2015, 06:20:36 pmWhy don't you just swap one of the scopes that has the problem (the guy who started this thread would be a good choice). Send him a new one that DOESN'T have the problem, and have him mail his back in the same box. It's not a showstopper bug in the sense that many people are not going to run into it, but it is a pretty major bug. It's not like this is some $20,000 piece of hardware that weighs 100lbs. It's $400 scope and it costs peanuts to ship.Speaking as an engineer, that's the dream scenario for me if I'm tracking something down, especially if the bug doesn't show up everywhere.

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 02, 2015, 09:47:21 pm
content: Enough people have encountered this bug that I suspect they've already reproduced the issue, and either they need more information to narrow down the cause, or they know the cause but it's a whopper and they're trying to buy some timeEase off a bit, they know about it now O0

author: John Coloccia
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 02, 2015, 10:06:20 pm
content: Personally, I haven't upgraded my firmware and I don't intend to unless it includes dancing unicorns.The bug is completely irrelevant to anything I do so I'd rather not mess with it. Maybe a couple of years from now when everything is stabilized.

author: dr.diesel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 02, 2015, 10:10:22 pm
content: Don't worry guys, it only took them a year or so to fix all the lock-up bugs on the MSO4000s.

author: AlexDavidson
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 02, 2015, 10:42:16 pm
content: I can't reproduce the freeze. Everything seems to work as expected with latest firmware.

author: JohnPen
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 03, 2015, 08:56:43 am
content: Can anyone with a 'non freezing' DS1054Z repeat some of the longer delay tests I listed in message 275? I realize that their response times could well be very short but it might be useful to see if there is still a delay time progression as they approach the 1usec TB of total freeze. I still feel the problem is related to a h/w window of opportunity being on the edge of spec combined with a s/w (f/w) loop that hits the edge of the h/w window. Since the bug recovers for some TB rates, albeit slowly, and some of my recovery times have improved from the previous f/w build maybe this build has helped some scopes to no longer freeze.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 03, 2015, 01:36:30 pm
content: The people with freezing seem to be able to do it reliably, even after a factory reset of all settings. If this is the case and it was a simple software bug then everybody would see the same thing.So...the next poll should be to find out if this is the case. Do people get the freezing reliably after a power-on reset of all user settings?If it turns out that the freezingISreliable then I'm leaning towards variance in internal components. Some combination of components is right on the limit for some people and not for others.And if I were Rigol I'd want to get hold of one of those freezing 'scopes. I'm sure anybody here would be willing to swap theirs for a new one.

author: Marcos
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 03, 2015, 04:18:15 pm
content: Most likely is a hardware problem, the bug it's easy to be reproduced even after all settings are reset to factory default state.But, before all these, please RIGOL, give us a solution to update Boot Vers to : 0.0.1.3

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 03, 2015, 06:28:26 pm
content: Quote from: Marcos on November 03, 2015, 04:18:15 pmMaybe boot isn't updateable...? It might just do initial hardware config then load the firmware. There's no real need to update that.Anybody know if there's an emergency restore feature if the firmware gets corrupted?(ie. Can 'boot' re-flash the 'scope from USB?)

author: GonzoTheGreat
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 03, 2015, 07:08:27 pm
content: Quote from: alsetalokin4017 on November 01, 2015, 06:19:22 pmWe need a new poll to confirm that.BTW: Do you know of the video that shows how quickly the buttons need to be pushed to get the full system info ?

author: GonzoTheGreat
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 03, 2015, 07:31:59 pm
content: Quote from: Wirehead on November 02, 2015, 06:10:09 amYou must be joking! Are you a disciple of superiority of amplitude over phase beliefs?

author: GonzoTheGreat
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 03, 2015, 07:44:55 pm
content: Quote from: RigolUS_Apps on November 02, 2015, 06:20:36 pmThe word "intermittent" implies a random low frequency of occurrence all other things being equal.Since there are some owners of this scope that experience the Freeze bug and Math phase error bug every time they try it, the word "intermittent" is not applicable."With some HW/SW configurations" would be more appropriate...

author: alsetalokin4017
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 04, 2015, 02:37:34 am
content: Gonzo, I'm glad someone is paying attention.1. The Freeze Bug is NOT intermittent. Some scopes have it and some +may+ not have it (I'm still not convinced that those with Boot Version 0.0.1.2 who "don't" have it are following directions exactly...). If your scope has it, then it will freeze _every time_ that the proper conditions are met. I should have thought this was evident from my videos. An "intermittent" problem happens sometimes and doesn't happen other times and is unpredictable. This problem is totally reproducible every time and is a clear defect, not an "intermittent" fault.2. The Math error is not just "offset one division". It is more like the horizontal scale of the Math trace is different than that of the two traces that are going into it. That is, the offset is small on the left edge of the screen and is greater on the right edge of the screen. This is one reason why I use a +square wave+ pulse train to illustrate it: it is easy to see that the Math result is not just offset, it is actually _wider_ than it should be on the right edge of the screen. Look carefully at the scopeshots I've attached below. This is also NOT an "intermittent" bug, it occurs reliably whenever the conditions are met.3. As far as the "pluses" counter goes, I showed that the counter counts pulses correctly when two channels are on but miscounts when a third channel is on, using _exactly the same_ signal. So this can't be a result of "ringing" or whatever, it's a result of turning on the third channel. Again, please see the scopeshots below. And again, the conditions for this are fairly specific. I can count manually when there are ten pulses on the screen, but can I rely on the "Pluses" counter to be correct in all cases when there are thirty or fifty "pluses" on the screen and I have three channels in use? So really, why should I use the pulse counter at all if it's going to give me a different count depending on how many channels I have turned on?4. The Rigol USA tech Jason sent me email offering to exchange my scope for a new one that doesn't have the bug, with them paying the shipping both ways. I didn't ask for this, he offered it. So I emailed him back and said OK, fine, send me the new scope and I'll put mine in the box and send it right back to you. He came back and said.... No, I have to send them my scope _first_, with all accessories and etc. and after they receive it _then_ they will send me a new one. Since I use the scope every day, I declined this "kind" offer, and suggested that they simply provide a way to update the Boot Version on those scopes with 0.0.1.2, up to 0.0.1.3 and maybe this will fix it for all of us who have the bug. I mean, what happens if I send them my scope, and then they send me a new one, and it turns out to have unacceptable bugs, or a hardware glitch or something? Then I'm out the use of a scope for _weeks_ perhaps, and I can't abide that. I use my scope every day in my work and I can generally work around the various bugs and annoyances. I also pointed out that I've spent tens of hours tracking down and explaining and demonstrating the various bugs and that my time is worth something. Heck, if I actually billed Rigol for my time finding problems with their product that they didn't even know about, it would be for a lot more than the cost of a brand new 1054z. So I'm not sending mine back unless they send me a new one FIRST. At which point I will examine it and test it for the various bugs and annoyances, and if it works as it should, THEN I'll box mine up and ship it back to them. And I'll post how great Rigol Customer Service is and make a YT video extolling the virtues of Rigol and its CS.So we'll see where it goes from there.Quote from: GonzoTheGreat on November 03, 2015, 07:08:27 pmI don't want to erase or reset the poll that we've already established. As far as I am aware, though, nobody with 0.0.1.3 has reported being able to reproduce the Freeze bug. I don't know about the Math error though. Hopefully if anyone with 0.0.1.3 _can_ make their scope freeze, they'll report it here, as well as reporting it to Rigol.I also don't know of a video that shows how quickly the buttons need to be pressed. All I can say at the moment is that pressing them at "normal" speed (my normal) isn't fast enough, as I demonstrated in my last-but-one video on the topic. So my advice is to practice, and if at first you don't succeed.... press the sequence _even faster_.

author: Electro Fan
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 04, 2015, 02:55:10 am
content: Quote from: alsetalokin4017 on November 04, 2015, 02:37:34 amSilly question, but how did you invoke the pulse counter? Thx

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 04, 2015, 07:52:05 am
content: Quote from: Electro Fan on November 04, 2015, 02:55:10 amIt's found on the second page of options in the Horizontal Measurment Menu accessed via the soft keys on theleftside of the screen.Hit either+Pulsesor-Pulses, and it will display for the active channel/s that are setup for measurement display. You set the channel/s to show measurements by hitting theMEASmenu key, then chooseSourceon the soft key menu, and select the channels you want (CH1, CH2, CH3, CH4, or Math).

author: JohnPen
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 04, 2015, 09:54:06 am
content: I can duplicate *4017 results for the 'Pluse' counting. However I have found that it only occurs when Acquire 'Average' is set. All other Acquire modes show the count correctly. There appear to be 2 ways of achieving an accurate count either only use 2 displayed channels alternatively if needing all 4 channels DO NOT use Acquire mode set on 'Average'. I have tried up to 38 pulses on the Display rather sad!

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 04, 2015, 10:20:29 am
content: Quote from: alsetalokin4017 on November 04, 2015, 02:37:34 amI've been saying that for ages. If it's not intermittent and some people have it and some don't then it's hardware related, not just software.Quote from: alsetalokin4017 on November 04, 2015, 02:37:34 ama) Maybe boot isn't updateableb) Why would that fix it? "Boot" suggests that it's only there to get the 'scope started. Once the firmware is loaded then maybe boot does nothing at all.If more people with 0.0.1.2 have the bug than 0.0.1.3 then it could be related to date of manufacture.

author: Gabri74
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 04, 2015, 11:59:07 am
content: Quote from: alsetalokin4017 on November 01, 2015, 02:58:14 pmCannot reproduce using this exact sequence. Tried multiple timesLatest update with bootloader 0.0.1.2

author: Orange
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 04, 2015, 12:10:38 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on November 04, 2015, 10:20:29 amIt just crossed my mind that the boot code could also set CPU operating flags and settings, like memory access time etc. These settings are then used to make hardware properly operating, I'm thinking on RAM and wait states for certain board revisions.The boot code is located inside the CPU, at least on a Blackfin CPU, not sure on a ARM processor.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 04, 2015, 12:41:58 pm
content: Quote from: Orange on November 04, 2015, 12:10:38 pmMight only be updateable with JTAG or something like that.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 04, 2015, 12:46:28 pm
content: Quote from: Gabri74 on November 04, 2015, 11:59:07 amMine doesn't freeze either, Boot Ver 0.0.1.1So... I'm going to declare it a hardware problem. Definitely not a pure software bug.May be fixable with a firmware update to adjust an internal timing or something like that (if Rigol get their ass in gear).

author: Scottjd
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 04, 2015, 01:25:17 pm
content: Quote from: Orange on November 04, 2015, 12:10:38 pmIt depends on what version of arm processor. And even versions deviate if a company just buys the royalties, then they can take that basic recommended version royalty and add/change the design. Sometimes for the better "iPhone A8/A9" and sometimes for the worse.Some companies set the boot to lock, since this has always been a first avenue for hacking hardware. When the lock is set even the maker can not update it, or sometimes the chip needs completely erases to unlock it. But you can't erase the processors code and still process the updated. So the erase has to be done back at the factory usually. And most are not willing to release the jtag or other methods (STI/AVR) code and let the customer erase it since it's easy to brick it and companies usually won't trust the customer at this level, or are afraid they will leak the code.

author: Scottjd
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 04, 2015, 01:30:02 pm
content: Quote from: alsetalokin4017 on November 04, 2015, 02:37:34 amI've worked with Jason in the past, he can be reasonable.Maybe ask if they can do an advanced replacement like some other companies have with me, like apple and Cisco. This is were they charge the credit card, or I think it may be just an authorization. Send you a new one and give you 2/3 weeks to return the old one. If they don't get the old one then your charge will become final and you one two of them.

author: akkarin
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 04, 2015, 04:28:16 pm
content: Hey guys, I am a bit late to the party but I have the bugs as well just tried it and confirmed it.Software version 00.04.02.04.07Board version 0.1.1Boot version 0.1.2Firmware version 0.2.3.11CPLD 1.1I haven't updated the firmware to the latest version yet I know. But from what I read it does not make a difference anyway...?

author: John Coloccia
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 04, 2015, 04:37:19 pm
content: software: 04.02.04.07Board 1.1Boot 1.2Firmware 2.3.11CPLD 1.1I have the freeze bug, though not as bad as the OP (mine occasionally recovers depending on the time base setting).

author: Electro Fan
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 04, 2015, 07:30:11 pm
content: Quote from: nanofrog on November 04, 2015, 07:52:05 amThanksPerhaps these two (+Pluses and -Pulses) are measurement features unique to the 1054 that are not found in the Rigol DS2000 series?

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 04, 2015, 09:35:38 pm
content: Quote from: Electro Fan on November 04, 2015, 07:30:11 pmNot sure, I've never had access to a DS2000 series.But FWIW, the DS1000Z series just got another page of measurements added to that particular menu in the latest firmware release. So it may get added in the near future.

author: Orange
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 04, 2015, 10:35:49 pm
content: Quote from: nanofrog on November 04, 2015, 09:35:38 pmincluding the bugsIs such feature really usefull ?. To me it looks like a poor mans serial decoder

author: Electro Fan
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 05, 2015, 12:47:19 am
content: The 2000 series has been pretty/very good (knock on wood). It would be great if Rigol can add the pulse measurements and other measurements to the 2000 series with firmware updates - just in case anyone at Rigol reads stuff here

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 05, 2015, 01:00:38 am
content: No freeze here, though it's so ungodly slow in that configuration that I thought it had for a minute...

author: Scottjd
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 06, 2015, 05:58:56 am
content: Here is a little video showing how to get the additional system information menu. I know some had asked for this, so I thought I would do one.https://youtu.be/jIpxZnxCp_AAlso, I did this video to show a friend how using a computer USB does faster screen shots. He needed to do a lot of screen prints and was taking a long time for him. I shot a fast video to show him the difference in speed, and whoops. The scope froze when I was using the hardwired network to interface to the computer. This happened a couple times when using the network, so if you don't want to find a new bug stick with the USB port on the scope for interfacing to your computer.https://youtu.be/yHw2lZISa60I just found it funning that I'm not able to get mine to freeze for every other bug in this long thread, but then find this one. God thing I don't use the network much for the scope anyway.Don't forget to click on the top of the video to open it in youtube if you want to subscribe. Also depending on your browser you may not be able o change the quality of the video that the forum embeds. If you can make sure you select the settings and choose 720P to see what buttons Im using to change the settings. By default in the forum post it plays at a much lower quality.

author: alsetalokin4017
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 06, 2015, 03:51:29 pm
content: Yes, the saving of screenshots to the USB stick is very slow, sometimes taking several minutes if you have several channels turned on or other complex setups happening! I've found that if you Stop the scope with the RUN/STOP button, it helps to make the saving of the screenshots to USB stick much faster.This is just another problem with the scope's software that should not exist. How long, really, does it take to save a 40-80 kb .png or .jpg file to external storage? Especially when the scope suspends response to most controls during the save. It should only take a few seconds or less!The video demonstrates that there is really no overriding reason for the saves to USB stick to take so long. The scope clearly has the data in the right format and can transfer it instantly to the computer... so why does it take so long to write it to the USB stick? Poor programming seems to be the only reason for this.On the other hand, I have not experienced the "LAN freeze" when using Telnet or DSRemote from my Linux computers. DSRemote saves a complete screenshot very fast too, and shows a "partial" display of the scope's screen and controls in near-real-time over the LAN.ETA: I just realized I have not tried the DSRemote LAN connection since "upgrading" to SP2. I hope the "upgrade" didn't break this remote-control and screensave capability.

author: alsetalokin4017
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 06, 2015, 04:18:07 pm
content: Scott, the reason you do not have the Pulses or Edges measurements in the Horizontal Measurements is because you are still running "Software Version" 00.04.03.SP1 instead of the most recent "update" version which identifies itself as SP2. If you install the latest firmware you'll have your "pluses". But beware... it may slow down the scope, and you'll have no way to roll back to the earlier software version if you don't like the resulting performance. I wish I had _not_ installed this "update", frankly, as I am perfectly capable of counting pulses myself and _getting the count correct_. The slowing of the scope, the fact that the freezing and math errors are still there, by far offset the "Pluses" feature. But there's no way that I can find to roll back to earlier firmware!Also your attempt to reproduce the Math error is not using the specific settings that have been listed several times. The Math error occurs at 500 _nano_seconds per division, not 500 microseconds as in your video test. Please try again with 500 ns/div set in the horizontal scale, Average acquire mode and Auto mem depth.It is unlikely that you have the Freeze Bug since you have the Boot Version 0.0.1.3.

author: alsetalokin4017
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 06, 2015, 04:26:49 pm
content: Quote from: nanofrog on November 04, 2015, 09:35:38 pmIt didn't really get "another page of measurements", it got 4 added measurements: +Pulses, -Pulses, +Edges, and -Edges. This made the total page count go from 3 to 4, but it's not really another whole page. And let's hope that Rigol gets the spelling and the counting right, if they should add this "feature" to other scope series.

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 06, 2015, 04:31:56 pm
content: The comments about saving to a USB stick are interesting. Minutes? Mine takes about three seconds in 'stop' and five-six in 'run'. Are your USB sticks actually vegetables with USB ports glued on?

author: Scottjd
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 06, 2015, 05:21:05 pm
content: Well I guess it may be the conditions you have set when you save the image. How many channels running and so on. I also noticed JPG or bitmap it takes longer then png. I made the mistake of changing the format and it took longer to print the screen. A faste USB vegetable does make a difference a little, not much.I've actually have not tried to produce the math error, I thought the pulses were only associated with the math since I've never seen it before and don't use the math much at all. I was going to just download the file import for the math error. But I guess now I know it better, I might not need the file.Now that I know the pulses are only a SP2 beta feature, wait I'll cal that more an Alfa feature, no thanks on the update. I've only had the scope a couple months, but years of working network tech, firewalls and stuff I know better then to not apply a change without a back out option. In the company I worked for your change wouldn't even be approved if you didn't have a way to back it out incase something went wrong.Is this "SP2" even officially released? I don't think I will be trying it until it's officially released. I already stated in the thread its not happening on my scope because of the slow down alone.As for the Lam freeze its not the first time, now I remember why I don't use it. I onky plug in LaN if I need to connect on port 5555 for running some CLI options. But then I usually unplug it.

author: Karel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 06, 2015, 06:05:18 pm
content: Quote from: alsetalokin4017 on November 06, 2015, 03:51:29 pmDSRemote seems to work fine with SP2. My impression is, however, that the waveform update rate dropped somewhat.I shouldn't have updated to SP2...

author: alsetalokin4017
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 06, 2015, 06:49:40 pm
content: Quote from: c4757p on November 06, 2015, 04:31:56 pmYes, I've seen it take over two minutes, during testing. I've tried both an 8GB carrot USB and a 4GB celery stalk USB and they are both pretty slow. Other people have also noticed and complained about this slowness, but I don't know what vegetables they are using.Sometimes I can get fast saves too, like with just one channel on, and nothing else happening. But in the general case it takes longer.

author: alsetalokin4017
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 07, 2015, 06:38:08 pm
content: Hah... I am ROFLing all over the place this morning. Check this out:

author: John Coloccia
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 07, 2015, 09:03:06 pm
content: To be fair, it seems like you're constantly trying to download firmware, testing lockups and things like that. I'm really not surprised that something minor like a startup counter may not be 100% accurate.

author: alsetalokin4017
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 07, 2015, 10:43:22 pm
content: Quote from: John Coloccia on November 07, 2015, 09:03:06 pmWell, _to be fair_ you really should try to get your facts straight. I am not _constantly trying to download firmware_, I am not constantly testing lockups and things like that. I am actually using my scope on a daily basis for ordinary benchwork. I am also in the process of _documenting_ bugs in the scope, for the benefit of anyone who may benefit and for the benefit of Rigol, who just may have been finally cajoled into sending me a replacement. I _regret_ having installed the latest SP2 firmware, I only installed it because I was told BY RIGOL USA SUPPORT that it would cure the math and freeze bugs, but it did not. That makes 3 -- count them carefully -- three whole firmware updates I have downloaded and installed in the 7 months I have owned this scope. Wow! I have only made and checked the full System Information screenshots because I was ASKED to do so by RIGOL USA support. You will just have to forgive me if I expect a measuring instrument to give me accurate measurements when I ask it to do so. Your mileage may vary of course. If you think something +easy to implement+ like a startup counter is "minor" when it doesn't give an accurate count.... all I can say is ...You probably don't care that the "Pluses" counter miscounts, either.To be fair.

author: John Coloccia
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 07, 2015, 11:28:22 pm
content: Uhm, I didn't mean to get you riled up. I wasn't saying it like you did something wrong or weird. I think you've probably locked up, reset, upgraded, tried to downgrade and otherwise fiddled with their scope more than anyone, so I have to think you're exercising paths in the software that no one ever considered and you're probably going to see some funkiness that no one else will. I don't know why you see that as some sort of insult or slight.Damn, just making conversation.

author: GonzoTheGreat
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 08, 2015, 11:16:02 pm
content: Quote from: John Coloccia on November 07, 2015, 11:28:22 pmNormally employees or subcontractors (a.k.a. beta testers) get paid good money for exercising all of the paths in a software, so the programmers can get their act together and users get a usable product without surprises.Misimplementing such simple functions as counters is an indication of slipshod programming practices that is likely to have serious consequences down the line in other areas. I am speaking from experience as I am an experienced low-level programmer who does his taxes in hex.We (users) would probably be better off with open-source firmware that we could debug and perfect ourselves.

author: Marcos
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 08, 2015, 11:41:03 pm
content: Not sure if observed by others but noticed that playing with Mem Depth to anything lower than 12M will freeze the scope using the same setup as before.Also, randomly, board version is changed from 0.1.1 to 0.2.3 (once 100MHz option is enabled) with previous firmware SP1.I would like to ask you guys if after unlocking your scope to 100MHz are you able to see that option as Official in "Installed Option" ?EDIT : Well, playing a little more with it the "randomly" board version change is not quite as random as it looks. I can reproduce this fault easily, first freezing the scope with the previous setup, reboot and voila, board version changed from 0.1.1. to 0.2.3 !Corrupted data ?Have no idea what's going on here

author: kalvenk
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2015, 10:08:14 am
content: By following the guide lines, I have tested my ds1054z scope and the results are as below:My Scope sys info:Software version 00.04.03.00.01Board version: 0.1.1Boot version 0.0.1.3Firmware version: 0.2.3.11CPLD version 1.1(A) Freezing test:Unable to repeat with many tries and never occur luckily.(B) Math error: yes and it does occur with the below conditions:1) Scope Must be set to 500ns/div (otherwise, No error)2) Acquire-->mode must be set to “Averages” (otherwise, No error)3) It must have at least three channels or more to be turning on. (I used A and B for the math (A+B) and C/D just connected to nothing.). If only turning on A and B, the error won’t occur.(NOTE: the above three conditions MUST be met at the same time in order to have the math error occurred)BTW, input frequency, voltage and waveform do NOT contribute to the error.

author: kalvenk
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2015, 02:49:40 pm
content: Quote from: kalvenk on November 11, 2015, 10:08:14 amRetest after upgrading to 04.03.02.03(A) Freezing test: never occur.(B) Math Error: still existing as before upgrade(C) Spelling issue that displaying ‘Pulses’ incorrectly as ‘Pluses’ at the bottom of screen when any pulse count function is selected.

author: kalvenk
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2015, 03:27:59 pm
content: Finally, I could experience the freezing issuebut only when printing/dumping screen to USB storage. The steps are:1) start the scope as usual and connect any signal waveform to A channel2) Must set the memDepth to be Auto.3) Must set the persisTime to be 100ms or more4) Press the zoom (doesn’t matter which time base is used)5) insert the formatted USB storage6) Press the “print” button and screen should display saving progress and then it just freezes somewhere during the progress and all the buttons are non responding and requires power recycling to resume the scope.Suggest trying the above steps for those who could not reproduce freezing bug by simply engaging the horizontal zoom mode and see if this could trigger the bug.

author: Marcos
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2015, 12:14:21 am
content: Let's hope they will rebuild everything from scratch, otherwise, wasted money.I regret buying this scope. Only bugs. Their software is unstable (or maybe hardware too).You get what you pay. Cheap price, crappy stuff.

author: Fennec
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2015, 10:13:29 am
content: Quote from: Marcos on November 13, 2015, 12:14:21 amaw, come on, play fair. Of course this Scope is really cheap, but it is a really good scope too. Where you find a DSO like this for under $US 1000 ? And an Aglient, Gould, Tek. also have those bugs if you search long enough. And the bugs found here does not make the Scope useless.K, it's a cheap Scope for hobbyists, but notCrap.

author: Wirehead
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2015, 11:28:44 am
content: Yeah, some replies sound a bit exaggerated.. At least they could send their scopes for free to me if they're that bad, I'll happily pay shipping..If they're that unhappy, why haven't they sent them back to the dealer as a malfunctioning product?Get a refund or pick another scope.. My 0.02$.

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2015, 12:03:13 pm
content: Even I had to soften up on it after getting one and seeing how nice it was.Really, it's very functional, and I really like Rigol's UI design (I find it even more intuitive to use than the Agilents I've interacted with). It's got a few quirks - I could have somefunwith the source code! - but overall it's an excellent scope, and IMNSHO, not even just "for the money".

author: John Coloccia
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2015, 12:46:52 pm
content: Quote from: c4757p on November 13, 2015, 12:03:13 pmIt's way more than just functional, too. Most of the bugs are pretty obscure. I've been an engineer for 20 years, and I've had access to FAR more expensive gear than this cheap little scope, and probably far more expensive gear than most engineers because of what I used to do, for that matter. This is nothing compared to the bugs you often find in expensive gear. Of course, that doesn't really excuse Rigol for not aggressively killing this stupid bug. Sounds like they DID do what I was suggesting and try to swap scopes with the OP (presumably for debugging on an actual failing unit), but what a short sighted, stupid way to do it. Just send a new scope, and he'll put the old one in the box and send it back. Sheesh, how difficult is this??

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2015, 01:03:51 pm
content: Quote from: c4757p on November 13, 2015, 12:03:13 pmI haven't used my DS1054Z much yet, but the last few days I had to debug some I/O level shifting and SPI issues. Yes, the UI is quite good. I've found all settings without consulting the manual and spent my time with debugging and not figuring out how the scope works. When I bought the scope half a year ago I went through the manual for a quick overview, but that's all. In my opinion the DS1054Z is the best bargain at the moment. The only thing which annoys me is the probe's 1x/10x switch. It likes to switch to 1x each time I look at it. Maybe I should put some tape over it.

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2015, 01:37:46 pm
content: Switchable probes are the devil. I'll probably do that with mine, or even just remove the plastic switch actuator entirely. I have enough fixed x1 probes.TBH though, having had so many used scopes, I've never really considered the probes to be part of it - I was pleasantly surprised to get a set of four, having completely forgotten they were typically included.So I'll be okay if they're a bit crap..

author: John Coloccia
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2015, 01:38:19 pm
content: Set it to 10x, grab a mini flat blade screwdriver and pop off the orange switch cap. It's just pressed in. You can always put it back in if you want or just use a screwdriver to switch it. That's one of the first things I did.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2015, 01:43:02 pm
content: Quote from: madires on November 13, 2015, 01:03:51 pmThis has been discussed in another Rigol-related thread (can't find it right now). There is a burr -- a "flash" from the injection molding process -- on either the yellow switch lever or the window in the probe's body. While this did affect my probes, I forgot which part it was... Anyway, this burr prevents the switch from fully reaching the end position. After popping out the yellow bit and removing the burr with a sharp blade, reliability of the switch has much improved for me.

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2015, 02:56:16 pm
content: Quote from: ebastler on November 13, 2015, 01:43:02 pmI see. In my case it's the 10x position. I had to extend the cut-out for the yellow slider about a 1mm. I used a mini drill because under the plastic cover there's some metal shielding or frame. And since the slider runs in a recessed area I had to shorten it a 1mm at one side too.Thanks to John and you

author: kalvenk
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 16, 2015, 06:35:25 am
content: I believe we are here digging out bugs is not trying to prove the scope is crap but helping Rigol to improve it better and that eventually will benefit us and Rigol.Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

author: alsetalokin4017
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 22, 2015, 08:41:10 am
content: Well... I have some New Developments to report!First off, Rigol USA and their tech Jason have seen the logic of my position and have sent me a "new" scope, with Boot Version 0.0.1.3.I received the New Scope this morning and have been putting it through its paces. They offered to do this replacement (I didn't ask for it originally) because they have not been able to reproduce the Freeze error on any of their scopes... I guess because they don't have any with the older Boot Version on hand. I convinced them that they should send me the new scope first (just scope itself and its calibration certificate, no accessories) before I sent my old one back. So it's happening, I'll be shipping the Old Scope back to them on Monday. They paid for shipping both ways, of course.Interestingly, this New Scope was delivered with the Old Firmware, SP1, instead of the latest firmware.Here's what I've found so far.1. The Freeze Bug does NOT seem to be present on this scope. I have not been able to get it to freeze by any of the usual methods that work reliably on the Old Scope. So that is Great! I still think that only scopes with Boot Version 0.0.1.2 have the bug.However the Blue Zoom Window boundaries don't change reliably when the "Freeze bug" conditions are met and the Horizontal Scale knob is rotated.2. The Math horizontal error is _still present_ at the 500 ns/div, Average acquire mode setting.Now, at sometime in the past I noted what was a "minor" bug, that is that when the Units are set to Volts on one channel and Amps on another channel and these are multiplied together to give Watts, the scope was smart enough to indicate "Watts" as the units of the Math trace, but only in the Math menu and the text string that gives the Math scale on the screen, and these correct Units did NOT make it through to the Measurements display or the "All Measure" table, which still indicated "U" or "V" for the units instead of Watts. It turns out that the SP2 firmware fixed this minor issue, Great!And this was true on the Old Scope as well, when it was running SP1. Also, Setup files with Math did not load correctly with the old SP1 firmware, on both Old and New scopes.But as I said, the New Scope was delivered with the SP1 firmware, and so it had this minor error still, and also still did not load Setup files correctly when they had a Math function incorporated in them. Since I use the power computation frequently, and also use stored setups a lot, I decided to upgrade the New Scope to the SP2 firmware.So I did. And now the Math units are correctly propagated to the Measurements and the All Measure table, and the Setup files now load correctly, as far as I can tell.Of course the "Pluses" spelling error is still there, since it comes with the SP2 firmware upgrade.I can live with that though, since I _know_ that this is simple to fix and they'll at least fix this with the next firmware upgrade.HOWEVER.... and this is a real pisser..... sometimes the Measurements will simply stop working altogether.They just stop updating, and the only way that I've found to get them back "live" is to power-cycle the scope. For example, I've just had some traces displayed for some time while doing my forum correspondence, and the measurements were working fine at first. Then I looked over at the scope and found that the measurements had stopped updating, were frozen. This happened without any input or changes from me this time! It has also happened quite a few times while I've been manipulating the controls during testing. I don't know yet the exact conditions to make this happen, but it's really annoying when it does happen, if I'm actually doing something involving the Measurement values. (Lately I've been testing and debugging and doing efficiency computations on some proprietary LED driver and battery charger circuits, so obviously I want the Measurements to work.) SO this New Bug gets a.I think that the Old Scope did this too, so it may be a problem in the SP2 software.Funny... the "StartUp Cnter" on the complete System Info screen said "21" when I first fired up the scope, and just a few starts later it said "114". I think it is miscounting, now it's showing "120" and I'm pretty sure I've restarted more than six times since the "114" count. (Restarts mostly due to the freezing Measurements issue.)I've made some videos documenting these things but it may be tomorrow before the videos are ready to view.Overall, I'm happy with the Rigol CS, and I do love the DS1054Z scope and I think that it will be really really great once the bugs are stamped out. This Measurement bug is something I've just been noticing, though, and I'd like to hear if anyone else has experienced the Measurements to stop working.I've had no trouble with my probes, but I rarely use them at the 1x position. But my switches all seem to be working fine, without the plastic flash problem.

author: alsetalokin4017
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 22, 2015, 08:47:05 am
content: It just did it again. Measurements have stopped updating, while the scope is just sitting there with some traces up, without me doing anything.I'm going to let it sit for a while to see if they come back by themselves.

author: alsetalokin4017
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 22, 2015, 09:35:37 am
content: I got tired of waiting so I rebooted, and the Measurements came back to life. Then after about ten minutes or so, without me touching controls at all,they just stopped working againand there's nothing I can do to get them back except restarting the scope. (The Hardware Frequency Counter does continue to work when this happens.) So I restarted, and I'm watching carefully now to see if I can get a consistent time for when they stop again. I have two sample traces up (CH2 and CH4) and a Math trace showing the multiplication of these two traces. To make it easier to see when the Measurements stop I have Statistics On, and I'm showing Measurements of Frequency and Rise Time and Fall Time of CH4, Vp-p of CH2 and Average of the Math trace. I'm not touching the controls.This is really annoying.ETA: The Measurements just stopped working. So it took about 8 minutes (from 3:29 to 3:37) from reboot to Measurement failure. Not touching controls at all.

author: f1rmb
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 22, 2015, 09:51:15 am
content: Hi,So Rigol should provide a boot update for the ones running previous version.Thanks for your reports, very useful :-)Cheers.---Daniel

author: alsetalokin4017
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 22, 2015, 10:20:19 am
content: Yes, I agree. I've asked Rigol Support about this several times but have never gotten a real answer. I even suggested that they simply supply me with an updated Boot Version instead of a whole new scope. So I think maybe the Boot Version _cannot_ be updated by a software file in the normal way.I've just tried waiting for the Measurements to stop, again, while videoing the screen. And of course they didn't stop this time. So the behaviour is inconsistent, and I still haven't figured out the conditions to reproduce the bug reliably.Meanwhile, I'm running a Self-Calibrate procedure (again) just in case that has something to do with it.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 22, 2015, 10:23:07 am
content: Quote from: f1rmb on November 22, 2015, 09:51:15 amYou assume that boot is updateable.(Also that boot is causing the problem - unlikely...)

author: alsetalokin4017
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 22, 2015, 10:25:14 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on November 22, 2015, 10:23:07 amWell, as far as I can tell nobody with Boot 0.0.1.3 has reported having the Freeze bug. Only scopes with version 0.0.1.2 have had it.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 22, 2015, 10:33:22 am
content: Quote from: alsetalokin4017 on November 22, 2015, 10:25:14 amAnybody...?Quote from: alsetalokin4017 on November 22, 2015, 10:25:14 amBut we know that some people with 0.0.1.2don'thave it.(also some people with 0.0.1.1 don't have it, eg. me)

author: kalvenk
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 22, 2015, 10:34:25 am
content: No, I did experience of the freezing issue while saving screen to usb. My scope is running 0.0.1.3Pls refer to post #367Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

author: alsetalokin4017
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 22, 2015, 10:49:24 am
content: Quote from: kalvenk on November 22, 2015, 10:34:25 amYes, but that's not the same Freeze bug that we are talking about here. We are talking about the freezing when the Horizontal Zoom mode is entered, Auto memory depth and Display Persistence is set to anything other than Min. You are describing a different bug, I think.

author: alsetalokin4017
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 22, 2015, 10:54:02 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on November 22, 2015, 10:33:22 amDo we really know that some with 0.0.1.2 don't have it? I'm not so sure that we really know that. Some people didn't follow instructions exactly, some people reported in using 1074 and 1104 scopes, etc. It may be that someone with 0.0.1.2 simply didn't follow the instructions correctly.We only started checking on the Boot Version relatively recently in this thread, since we just found out about the "complete" System Information screen a little while ago. (But it has always been known that a "parameter" text file would have this information, just harder to access that way.)

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 22, 2015, 11:00:35 am
content: Quote from: alsetalokin4017 on November 22, 2015, 10:54:02 amNope.I seem to remember some people posting here that they don't but it's in the middle of this thread and I can't be bothered to search for it. I'm sure that if the problem was as simple as "Boot 0.0.1.2" then Rigol would have reproduced it in the factory. They wouldn't have needed to contact somebody to get a defective scope.Me? I think it's some hardware timing issue with a slight variance on different units, hopefully fixable in firmware. It's not necessarily a hardwaredefect, just somebody not reading a datasheet timing properly (or maybe even an error in a datasheet - it happens)Let's hope Rigol make good use of that scope...

author: alsetalokin4017
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 22, 2015, 11:17:11 am
content: D'ya think? I haven't been able to get a straight answer on the Boot Version issue from Jason the Rigol tech.Remember... the Rigol folks in China are the ones who let that "Pluses" typo in the most recent "firmware" get through....Right now I'm more worried about this issue of the Measurements stopping after a random time interval. By using the Statistics option and the "Difference" setting, you get a count of how many measurement samples are taken. With 5 measurements going, it takes about 3 samples per second. My New Scope's measurements just now stopped after 896 samples. Just before that it went to slightly over 3000 samples before stopping. And just before that it went to only about 30 samples before stopping.There is no way to get the measurements going again without power-cycling. This is really Really annoying.Does anyone else have _this_ bug? Am I having a show-stopping problem with this New Scope now? The Freeze bug could be worked around, but this issue of the Measurements stopping randomly without me doing anything at all is really... double-plus ungood.ETA: I'm making a video showing these random time intervals between the Measurement failures. The only thing consistent about it is that it always happens. Sometimes it happens shortly after bootup, within a minute, three minutes, sometimes it takes ten or twenty minutes, but the Measurements always stop working eventually.

author: John Coloccia
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 22, 2015, 12:06:13 pm
content: We'll, I'm glad they finally showed a bit of common sense and are grabbing your specific scope to play with! Geez, how long did that take?? I had a feeling they were just guessing and couldn't actually reproduce the problem on their end.Post specific instructions how to reproduce the math freeze-up if you can. (basic settings, etc)

author: Scottjd
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 22, 2015, 02:37:49 pm
content: Quote from: alsetalokin4017 on November 22, 2015, 11:17:11 amThe measurements stopping sounds like the application daemon crashing, should be an easy fix if the developers turn on debug consol and capture the error log. Or just put a watch dog on it so it restarts when it fails, hopefully fast enough not to impact the measurement sample rate. But the watchdog is more of a patch work around and not a true fix.So question, now that you have the new scope. Does the SP2 still cause drastic slow down when you tried to simulate the freeze? I only ask since your now running what seems to be the same as what I have.And as far as I know the SP2 is still not reversable.

author: alsetalokin4017
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 22, 2015, 07:44:26 pm
content: Quote from: John Coloccia on November 22, 2015, 12:06:13 pmYes, that is right, Jason the Rigol USA tech told me several times that they were unable to reproduce the freezing problem on the scopes they had. But I never did get a straight answer from him about whether they had tried it on scopes that had the Boot Version 0.0.1.2, or if they only had examples with 0.0.1.3 on hand.As far as this Measurements thing is concerned, I'm still trying to figure out the parameters. All I can say at this point is that with the setups I've tried, it always happens, but at random times after startup. Anywhere from just a few seconds, to twenty or so minutes. The video documenting this is viewable atIn that video I'm using two channels (CH2 and CH4, trigger on CH4, CH4 at 1x directly connected to a Pulse Generator at 10 MHz, CH2 at 10x connected with 10x probe to same PG, DC coupling), and a Math trace multiplying the channels (Units of CH4 set to  so that the Math units come up as Watts), and five measurements up (CH2 Vp-p; CH4 Freq,Risetime, Falltime; Math Avg.) Acquire mode Average, 2 averages, Auto mem depth. Persistence Min. Horizontal at 20 ns/div.To get some kind of time interval reading I'm using Statistics ON and Difference in "Stat.Sel.", which gives a sample count for the Measurements, at a rate of about 3 or 4 samples per second. So when the Measurements stop, the sample count gives the approximate time. But the measurements will still stop running even if Statistics is Off and just the normal tiny fonts are used for the Measurement displays.

author: alsetalokin4017
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 22, 2015, 08:02:59 pm
content: Quote from: Scottjd on November 22, 2015, 02:37:49 pmI don't know, exactly, yet. Right now I'm still busy documenting this Measurement problem.I do know that when the Freeze Bug conditions are met, the Blue Zoom Window doesn't change when the Horizontal Scale knob is turned to change the Zoom factor, or perhaps it changes very slowly. I have another video documenting this behaviour that I shot right after I unboxed this new scope and tested for the Freeze bug, but I haven't processed and uploaded it yet.Yes, apparently there is no way to "roll back" to an earlier version of a firmware update. This seems like a major programming or strategy fail on Rigol's part. Even MicroSoft knows better than that! Any software change should always be reversible, in case new bugs are found in the "update".

author: alsetalokin4017
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 22, 2015, 10:01:59 pm
content: I've done some more work on this problem and apparently it is related to the Math function. Without using Math the measurements continue working, at least in my testing so far. But when one uses Math to multiply two traces, the Measurements stop working at random times as shown in the above video.I've made a longer video going step-by-step, starting with the Default single-channel setup and adding conditions one at a time until finally the scope's Measurements stop working, after I've established the Math function.When the video has finished processing and uploading I'll post the link here.Here's the new video. It's pretty long at nearly 20 minutes.

author: alsetalokin4017
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 23, 2015, 01:29:15 am
content: OK, I believe I have tracked down the minimum necessary conditions for the Measurements to stop working. This has worked consistently for me, the only thing is that the time it takes to fail seems to be random.Note that this is a perfectly ordinary use of the scope, that someone might do every day, with no tricky settings or heavy task loading at all. It's just a plain old 2-trace multiplication.1. Do a "5th left button" factory reset.Just so you know we are starting from the same place with nothing but factory defaults in the scope.2. Select your language, and I prefer "sound on".3. Unzip the MeasureFail zipfile that I have attached below, and load the MEASUREFAIL2.stp setup file into the scope.This is nothing fancy, it just uses CH1 and CH2 on, 2V/div, and Math multiplication of the channels, 100U/div. Acquire mode is normal, mem depth is auto, persistence minimum, both channels units are , timebase is 20 ns/div, hardware frequency counter is ON CH1, and 5 measurements are displayed with stats and sample counts.4. Provide a 5 V p-p signal at about 10 MHz to the CH1 and CH2 inputs.The setup file sets the channels to 1x, it assumes you are using a direct cable connection to your FG signal source, or probes at 1x.5. Observe the sample counts in the Statistics windows, and wait.The pasttwothree times I've done it the measurements stopped working at 846 counts, and 1k10 counts, and 373 counts.But you may have to wait as long as 3k counts or more. If it hasn't stopped working by 4k counts you may not have the bug, or maybe you just need to wait even longer.If your measurements stop working, try everything you can think of to get them working again, before you power-cycle the scope. If you find something that works, please let me know right away.

author: kalvenk
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 23, 2015, 06:12:59 am
content: Quote from: alsetalokin4017 on November 23, 2015, 01:29:15 amBy following the similar steps, my scope measurements stop working at count 1k3 . Other functions are still working like changing time base, v/d except measurement function that can't be resumed unless rebooting the scopeSent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

author: Scottjd
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 23, 2015, 08:43:42 am
content: Just a though, maybe it would be a good idea to set up a new thread with 2 new surveys.A new thread for counter crash.Survey 1. Can you replicator counter crash bug?Survey 2. Boot loader 1.2 or 1.3Survey 3. SP1 or SP2Not sure of you can set up multiple surveys, but if you can collecting the data like that above would be a lot easier then people post that it happened or didn't happen. Then they leave out information that I would consider relevant to the bug reproduction.If at all possible include "Other" in each survey incase their scope is running a different firmware, or older boot loader? Can other allow the user to enter their own results and be part of the survey?I've only created one post since I joined, and it had one survey. So I don't know if multiple surveys are possible or it "other" user defined answer is an option.Either way, it still may be better to have a different thread, this one is already so longgggg. If I was just joining I would be reading it for one bug, then see 4 bugs and have no idea what's fixed in SP2 or not. I would be a confused new member and automatically think the scope is junk just from how many pages of posts their are. I probably wouldn't read it because of how long it is, and just make that assumption if I was looking on information about the scope because i was looking to buy one.Just random thoughts.Can posts be linked together? Another thought.Scott

author: JohnPen
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 23, 2015, 02:20:54 pm
content: My first attempt of the 'measure freeze' setup given by **4017 bombed out at 870 samples. I did not find any way to reset/restart the stats count (including a 'self cal' run). All was well after a reboot. I then ran stats for just the 2 channels for some time, over 7k sample count, but when I added the 'Maths' mode it only survived for a further 830 sample count. It does appear to need the 'Maths' mode to be activated to create the stats freeze condition. I am running with the latest SP2 f/w and a boot 0.0.1.2.

author: Fennec
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 23, 2015, 05:51:16 pm
content: Hi,okay, the same with my scope.I load the measurement settings from **4017, feed in 2x 10MHz sinewave ~5Vpp (rubudium vs GPS test setup) CH1 x10 (probe) CH2 via RG58 direct x1, trigger set CH1. It stops counting at 1k81. All funktions are working, but without counting forward. I tried it few times. Only the counter time is different."Measure all" also hangs. I tried to restart the counter with "statistic on/off, math on/off, reset... the couter set to "0" but still wouldn't count or restart. The only way (seems) cycle the power button.Latest firmware (SP2) onboot version 0.0.1.2Maybe Rigol can find an "internal procedure" like flash a new firmware / boot version via JTAG or something like that. I would try that. Better we can fix this issues little complicated as I send my scope back, become a new one with 0.0.1.3 and have thesame failures again;(If RIDOL needs a DS1054Z with boot version 0.0.1.2. to test it, I got one.. ;(@ alsetalokin4017* MeasureFail.zip (0.86 kB -downloaded6 times.)Looks like most here are not really interested in a working scope. Maybe you are right, they have buy it, to watch the beautiful colorized traces the whole day.

author: Scottjd
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 23, 2015, 06:28:08 pm
content: Quote from: Fennec on November 23, 2015, 05:51:16 pmThe counter bug doesn't seem to be related to the boot version. This is looking like a SP2 code issue, so no need to swap them unless you have the freeze lockup bug explained earlier a few pages back.

author: Fennec
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 23, 2015, 06:39:12 pm
content: Ya, I have the freeze bug too. I can reproduce all the bugs posted here and in the other thread ;(

author: timofonic
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 23, 2015, 07:20:01 pm
content: Welcome to Rigolws 95, Second Edition, Service Pack 2:The Bug's Revenge Strikes Back Again, this is the last one we promise (tm).

author: alsetalokin4017
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 23, 2015, 07:59:19 pm
content: Thanks for your reports.I see some people are calling this a "counter bug". It is important to note that _ALL_ measurements stop working, every single one, whether you have them selected currently when the bug hits or not. Only the Hardware Frequency Counter still works.Allmeasurements, the "All Measure" table included, stop working, as far as I can tell. I have just been using the Statistics, Difference mode windows because they contain a sample counter, so that you can tell how long it takes for the bug to hit. It is not necessary to have the Stats windows up, the measurements will still stop working even if you only have the basic measurements, in the regular small fonts, showing. When they stop, ALL measurements now fail to work. The only way to get any valid measurements back, as far as I can tell, is to reboot the scope. And then it may only be a short time until they stop again. This is a Measure Fail bug, not just a "counter bug".I've been running tests on both the Old Scope (with Boot version 0.0.1.2) and the New Scope (Boot 0.0.1.3), side by side, and they both have this bug. Both are running SP2 firmware. Sometimes it takes a long time for it to show up, sometimes it takes just a few seconds or a minute. It does seem that signal inputs are needed, I think.... but maybe not.Here are some "stop counts" that I experienced over the night, using an actual bench setup that I'm using to try to monitor efficiency of an actual circuit that I'm working on. All these tests were at Average acquisition mode, 8 averages, 3M memory depth, with 3 channels + Math active, 2 us/div timebase, 5 measurements displayed:Old Scope:stopped at 7k14stopped at 8k326(still running at over 19k with no input signals)stopped at 5k171stopped at 279stopped at 4k51New Scope:(still running at over 23k with no input signals)stopped at 715stopped at 10k272stopped at 1k37stopped at 3k910 with no input signals!(still running at 13k240 with no input signals)So at 3 or 4 sample counts per second it could take an hour or more for the measurements to stop, or it could take as little as one minute or even less.I agree that this bug should probably have its own thread, with a poll to keep track of it, but I'm too busy at the moment to start one up.I have not yet heard back from Jason at Rigol USA. It's 2 pm here in Central Texas as I write this, so it's just 12 noon in Oregon. I imagine he's pretty busy right now too.

author: kalvenk
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2015, 05:40:37 am
content: It looks strange that for my scope, it turns out that the measurement (with math on) freezing can be prevented if I turned on the function "measure->Measure All” at initial or before freezing. It somehow helps in preventing freezing but not resuming after freezing. Does anyone get the same finding as what I found?Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

author: JohnPen
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2015, 09:16:46 am
content: I had 'measure all' on for some runs but it made no difference to the 'measure freeze' condition it just seems to turn up at random but usually only a few k counts. I also tried not using the 'stat difference' setting but it still failed within similar time frames. It would seem to be a s/w (f/w) bug associated with the MATH s/w functionality. In the past I did some work on testing stats counting on ATM equipment and it regularly had inaccuracies due to poor s/w. The h/w was always spot on and sadly very simple tests often picked up the failures in the s/w almost immediately. Such is life.

author: Fennec
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 24, 2015, 03:16:17 pm
content: Quote from: alsetalokin4017 on November 23, 2015, 07:59:19 pmYa, with "counter" I meant the measurements in all windows. It's my bad english.

author: alsetalokin4017
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 25, 2015, 05:50:37 pm
content: Well, I suppose the "workaround" for this one is just to keep Math set up but turned OFF until you are ready to actually record some Math values or traces, then turn Math ON for as short a time as possible, then turn it OFF again, so that the measurements don't crash while you are working.I did this last night on some work, and the scope went for like 17k sample counts with Math off, then I turned Math ON and the measurements crashed after another 763 counts. So .... work fast and you might be able to avoid having to reboot every few minutes.

author: kalvenk
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 28, 2015, 02:20:38 pm
content: Quote from: alsetalokin4017 on November 25, 2015, 05:50:37 pmHave you tried to turn the "measure->all" on and it may helps to avoid freezing. For me, it works well and I could reach 30k count more and still no measurement freezing by turning on the "measure-All".

author: JohnPen
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 28, 2015, 04:48:44 pm
content: My DS1054Z, on SP2 latest f/w, always freezes with a 1Mhz square signal on 2 channels and a couple of rise time measurements plus MATH. Any measuring category including 'Measure All' works OK until one turns on 'Maths' as well. Shortly after 'Maths On' measure stats will freeze. Normally with under a thousand sample counts.

author: alsetalokin4017
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 29, 2015, 04:08:35 am
content: Quote from: kalvenk on November 28, 2015, 02:20:38 pmkalvenk, your scopeshot is very interesting. You are showing two nice symmetrical sine waves that are perfectly in phase and of the same displayed amplitude, as nearly as I can figure. And you would agree, I hope, that 0 x 0 = 0. Yet, that is not what the Math trace says.You didn't position your channel zero-voltage baselines precisely on graticule lines, but I've marked up your scopeshot to show the baselines and the zero-crossings of the two sine waves, as precisely as I could, and I've also indicated the corresponding time points on the Math trace. Only in a couple of places does the Math trace come close to agreeing with what we would get by multiplying the traces by hand or in a spreadsheet from a data dump.I've noted the very severe horizontal error that happens to the Math trace when the timebase is set to 500 ns/div, but here you are using a different timebase, and still getting a significant horizontal error in the Math. Congratulations! You've actually discovered Yet Another horizontal Math error bug, I think !I can see that you are running the SP2 firmware (by the fact that your Horizontal Measurement Menu has 4 page-dots instead of three). So I don't know why you have been able to run to 30k measurements without stopping. I don't think it's because of the All Measure table being up, as that doesn't work for me or for others who have tried it and reported. Maybe there is some other setting or option that is helping your scope run along, or maybe the random nature of the bug means you just haven't waited long enough on this particular test run.

author: JohnPen
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 29, 2015, 11:06:52 am
content: I have duplicated kalvenk's set up with the same frequency and a parallel feed from my FY3200S of a 5 volt sine wave. I agree that the MATH trace is displaying a second harmonic of the 6.04981 Mhz but in my scope's case I do not see any horizontal displacement. To clarify the MATH trace is definitely locked to the original waveform but it displays a peak when CH1 and 2 are at a minimum and has 2 cycles to the 1 cycle of the original waveform. However there is a cyclic ~2 nsec twitch in the MATH trace position of the MATH trace , that I haven't pinned down yet. I really must sort out uploading screen prints!

author: kalvenk
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 29, 2015, 12:49:24 pm
content: Quote from: alsetalokin4017 on November 29, 2015, 04:08:35 amOops, yes you are right that the math multiplication output is incorrect. I didn’t pay much attention on the actual math result; instead, my eyes were much focusing on whether the counting is freezing or not. Thanks for finding this error. One thing, the input signal was fed from FY3224s signal generator running sweeping mode between 1Mhz~10Mhz 10v. Have posted here also my scope’s info.Back to the measurement freezing issue, if I turn off the “measure-All” then the measurements will freeze sooner or later after few hundred counts or less. However, if I turn it on, then it just goes ok apparently. The counting speed is around 1 tick/second during measure-all turned ON. The counting speed increases to be 3 ticks/second when measure-all is off. Not sure if the freezing issue has to do with the speed of counting.

author: kalvenk
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 29, 2015, 12:58:43 pm
content: Quote from: JohnPen on November 29, 2015, 11:06:52 amSorry for the confusing, my setup signal was sweep mode running between 1Mhz~10Mhz 10v generated from FY3224s. Possibly the math trace (ch1Xch2) was unable to catch up the change of input frequency and that was why the horizontal displacement happening during my screen capture.

author: alsetalokin4017
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 29, 2015, 03:24:47 pm
content: Quote from: kalvenk on November 29, 2015, 12:58:43 pmAh... yes, the sweeping may indeed account for the horizontal error in the Math, because it does take a little time for the Math to respond to changes in the input signals. I think that if you repeat the same setup but use a fixed ~ 6Mhz signal there might be a better correspondence between the Math trace and a manual multiplication of the input signals. Except at 500 ns/div... the bug that happens there is from some other cause.JohnPen, the Math is being "honest" about the 2-for-1 peak relationships. It's not really showing a "harmonic" but simply the product of the multiplication of values. When you multiply two negative numbers (the sine wave values at the lowest valleys) you get a positive number, and of course two positive numbers have a positive product, so the math should have peaks at both the input signal's valleys and the peaks. And it does. There is just that horizontal error (really a slight scale error) that is hopefully due to kalvenk's use of a sweeping input rather than one that is steady over time.

author: JohnPen
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 29, 2015, 05:13:11 pm
content: Yes I should have remembered that. With various fixed frequencies there is no sign of any horizontal error except maybe for the ~2nsec twitch I see on the MATH output. I believe the twitch effect is multiplied as well as I can see that the triggering itself is twitching very slightly. Repeated single shots show a small variation in trigger point so I believe I am fighting physics. I have tried an alternative sine generator with a similar result.

author: kalvenk
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 01, 2015, 12:11:36 pm
content: Quote from: alsetalokin4017 on November 29, 2015, 03:24:47 pmBased on alsetalokin3017's comment, I redo the test by feeding in a fix 6Mhz sine wave for both ch1 and ch2. Yes the math trace looks correct now.During the test, I have also turned on "measure All" all the time and that allows scope's measurement to be continue without freezing and it did reach 133k391 counts and should be fine to go further. However, once I turned off "measure Al", the measurement freezes and stop working after few hundred counts.

author: timofonic
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 01, 2015, 08:26:29 pm
content: Quote from: ted572 on December 01, 2015, 08:20:56 pmAny changelog?

author: Scottjd
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 01, 2015, 08:33:04 pm
content: Quote from: ted572 on December 01, 2015, 08:20:56 pmDarn, you beat me to it. I was reviewing the change log and got a phone call.I noticed this version ends in .03I think the one posted in the thread for testing was .01So I'm shure they have a few fixes maybe now that they have a scope that doe the freeze, and the change log spells pluses correctly, so hopefully also the firmware doesSo for those that will be trying this firmware I only have 2 questions.1. Does it still cause a slow down like in .01?2. Can this one be backed out and reversed back to SP1 if need be?

author: pascal_sweden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 01, 2015, 09:20:22 pm
content: Note that freeze up bugs are also present in the Tektronix MDO3000, for the Tektronix aficionados out here

author: Marcos
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 01, 2015, 11:01:38 pm
content: Quote from: Scottjd on December 01, 2015, 08:33:04 pmBut for me it looks the same version as SP2. What's new here ?

author: Scottjd
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2015, 02:16:17 am
content: Quote from: ted572 on December 01, 2015, 11:35:03 pmThe SP2 that was released in this thread I think was build .01 and this one ends in .03 with a few fixes.I think that they have a scope now that freezes I hope they fixed that, and maybe the spelling of pluses.

author: alsetalokin4017
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2015, 05:06:49 am
content: Quote from: Scottjd on December 02, 2015, 02:16:17 amNo, that's not right either, unless they have released two different versions with the _same_ number/name. Which is possible, considering the source, I suppose.The version 00.04.03.02.03 archive contains a .GEL file that was created on September 11, 2015. See the first image below, which shows the directory listing of this archive.This is the firmware that is identified by the scope as 00.04.03.SP2in the normal short-form System Information screen, and it contains the Pluses spelling error. See the next two images below.Yes, they now have my old scope (#2) that has the Boot Version 0.0.1.2 and I'm sure they will be able to get it to freeze. That scope also freezes while running the 00.04.03.02.03 (SP2) firmware. The Freeze Bug, I believe, is related to the Boot Version, not the "firmware" updates that the user can install from a .GEL file. I haven't gotten any further input from Rigol USA about it, or about the Measurements Fail bug yet, though.

author: alsetalokin4017
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2015, 05:12:20 am
content: And no, there is still apparently no way to back out to an earlier version of a firmware once a later one has been installed. At least no way that I know about, and I've asked Rigol USA about this too, several times, and haven't gotten any kind of answer.If anyone knows of a way to roll back to earlier firmware PLEASE post the information here !!

author: Scottjd
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 02, 2015, 08:36:55 am
content: Quote from: alsetalokin4017 on December 02, 2015, 05:12:20 amSo they just official released the one they posted a couple weeks ago for testing in this forum conversation?Did they even bother to check back with the comment about people saying it slowed the scope down.

author: Helix70
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 02, 2015, 11:56:33 am
content: Quote from: pascal_sweden on December 01, 2015, 09:20:22 pmWell that's it, I have lost all confidence in Tek. I can't believe they let such a major bug out into the public. I guess these things will be appearing on eBay for pennies now.

author: GonzoTheGreat
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 03, 2015, 02:00:12 pm
content: Quote from: Helix70 on December 02, 2015, 11:56:33 amWhat's more important is how long they allow the bug to thrive.As long as Rigol ...or shorter?

author: Shock
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 18, 2015, 06:51:17 am
content: It's best not to try and isolate bugs with presaved setup files, they can be subject to their own idiosyncrasies, better to clearly define the firmware versions at the start, reset the scope to a "known" condition and then complete the steps to reproduce the bug, obviously a video helps.

author: esmconcepts
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: December 20, 2015, 02:23:40 am
content: Hi, my name is Everett. I do a lot of reading on the forum, but this is my 1st post. I just bought the Rigol Z model a week ago so I have read for many hours on the good and bad points. But it does seem to be a very good option for the price. I bought it, thanks to Dave's reviews and tear-down.I have not come across any bugs or freezes yet, "knock on wood". But I have come across some additional testing inside the Z that to date I have not read about. Maybe it can help some of the smarter members with their bug searches.When you use the: Trigger - menu - menu - force - menu trick to get the full listing of the system info stop there and go to the "Self-Cal" menu listing. There will be 1 more test items listed below the normal listings "TestModel." Select it and there are 3 more listings "Key Test, Screen Test, and a grayed out UnlockAuto."Now, while your back in the menu with the Self-Cal button, click it, there are 2 additional listings, "LFCal and Output." The LFCal runs a test for the current active probe channel that is on. The Output, I don't know, I did now notice any activity when clicked. Perhaps an out going source needs to be connected??? Someone else might have a better idea?I have also listed my Z's System Info if it helps anyone.Just an FYI and Thanks to all the other supportive members for their effort in making this forum a great source of information.Everett...

author: alsetalokin4017
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 20, 2015, 09:18:23 am
content: @Everett:Thanks for your interesting post. I was aware of the Test Model Key Test and Screen Test items but not the LF Cal and Output items. I thought these came with the SP2 software but you are still on SP1. You don't mention whether you have a "genuine" 1104Z or an "unlocked" 1054Z.... I ask because your System Info screen is showing a "Boot Version" 0.0.1.4 instead of 0.0.1.3 .... even though you are running an earlier version (SP1) of the "Software".It sure is hard to keep track of all these differences in the "firmware" or software suite. I wonder what other undocumented features exist in the 1000z series scopes.I don't think you'll have the Freeze Bug as described in this thread, and probably not the "measurements fail" bug (that I think comes with the SP2 firmware, maybe) but if you are so inclined you might check to see if you have the Math horizontal error bug that happens at 500 ns/div.

author: garnix
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 20, 2015, 11:33:35 am
content: @esmconcepts how does that additional menu appear? Which keys did you press?Ok solved :-) the trick is to push the buttons very quickly...

author: esmconcepts
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: December 20, 2015, 06:28:07 pm
content: Hi alsetalokin,QuoteI agree, I was also looking at the Software Version / Firmware Version, then the Build date from what the other members have posted. Something does not add up.I would expect a newer build date to be running the newer Soft & Firm, but not always so. It seems Rigol has shifted the S&F versions at different time's as to the build dates. They must have noticed an issue. I noticed a couple with different Board version's/ aka 0.1.2 / 0.1.3 - with older build dates.Mine is new (as least the purchase date) May of 15, with what appears to be older Software version #.I have not updated the software version (and won't until I see promising results" but I do have the "DSER" add on. I started with the Full package, but did notice some unstable results. So I used the Telnet procedure to roll back to stock setup and then applied the add on without the 500uM part.This is my 1st Digital scope as I see the need to catch up with the newer technology. I have a Tektronix 2201 & 2445 that I have used to test and learn on. The 1000Z series has a lot going for it, and at the current price was in my modest budget. I'm learning something new everyday.

author: v81
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2016, 04:21:56 am
content: Can confirm that i can reproduce this bug.Screen cap of version details attached.Not en expert scope pilot yet, is there any other data i can provide that helps?

author: alsetalokin4017
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2016, 06:36:50 am
content: Quote from: v81 on January 29, 2016, 04:21:56 amThanks for your report.The significant bit is that your scope has the earlier Boot Version. The Freeze Bug is apparently fixed on scopes with Boot Version 0.0.1.3. Unfortunately I know of no way to change/update your Boot Version; installing new "firmware" updates from a GEL file only changes the "Software Version".

author: Shock
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2016, 07:10:35 am
content: Quote from: alsetalokin4017 on January 29, 2016, 06:36:50 amI know how to but there is a strong chance of 'le brick' and it's not worth the risk (besides that I'm on later boot code and going back in time is another whole can of worms).

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2016, 11:22:42 am
content: Quote from: alsetalokin4017 on January 29, 2016, 06:36:50 amUnfortunately for your theory, plenty of people have boot 0.0.1.1 with no bug (eg. me).

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2016, 01:11:11 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on January 29, 2016, 11:22:42 amMine got no freeze bug either (boot version 0.0.1.2).

author: Shock
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2016, 03:26:38 pm
content: Total count 6 people confirmed reproducible on boot code 0.0.1.2 and 6 people not reproducible on boot code 0.0.1.2. All other boot code versions either side of that so far report no issues.Obviously the more samples the better but the freeze was reported a couple of times early on that it took a few attempts to make the problem persistent. Not everyone is good at following instructions either which skews numbers.It doesn't matter if it's hardware software or whatever, butmy theoryis it's a firmware issue and some scopes didn't get an interim boot code update at 00.04.00.00 (which contained the last public boot code GEL file) but got a later software update instead. I've seen this type of mix up happen many times so it's the most plausible to me. The update system appears to not accept boot code firmware based on the current software version. Too bad if you miss an important boot code update.In my opinion Rigol is really dumb asking people to self report this, they have a sample scope with the fault and they can reach out to other customers anytime they want.

author: alsetalokin4017
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2016, 07:23:12 pm
content: QuoteDid you take a look at the poll numbers at the top of this thread? (The poll is inaccurate on the "can't reproduce" side because some people with _different scope models_ have put their scopes in there...)Does anyone know of any scope that does _not_ have Boot Version 0.0.1.2 and that _does_ have the Freeze Bug?QuoteThat's right. But as far as I know, only scopes with Boot Version 0.0.1.2 have this particular bug. I still don't know if _all_ scopes with Boot Version 0.0.1.2 have it, because of the problems with following instructions, different models (1074, genuine 1104 vs "hacked" 1054, etc) being included in the poll numbers, and so on.

author: alsetalokin4017
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2016, 07:29:02 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on January 29, 2016, 11:22:42 amUnfortunately for _your interpretation_ of my theory, my theory is that perhaps half of the scopes _with boot version 0.0.1.2_ have the Freeze Bug. So your results with 0.0.1.1 are irrelevant unless you can get your scope to freeze, which you evidently cannot. Also, if you did have 0.0.1.2 and did _not_ successfully get your scope to freeze.... that's interesting but does not _disprove_ my theory, since you could be failing to follow the directions, or you could have one of the scopes that doesn't freeze even with the bad boot version.We need data points from scopes that DON'T have Boot Version 0.0.1.2 but DO freeze according to the instructions. Are there any?

author: Shock
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 30, 2016, 12:40:27 am
content: Quote from: alsetalokin4017 on January 29, 2016, 07:23:12 pm6 boot code 0.0.1.2 reproduced6 boot code 0.0.1.2 cannot reproduce11 others have boot codes 0.0.1.1 and 0.0.1.3 etc and cannot reproduce.There is a lot more people with the problem but they haven't reported their boot code yet.

author: Marcos
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 30, 2016, 12:59:16 am
content: Just to add...at that time I reported in that poll that I cannotreproduce the fault, so my entry is inaccurate because later I realized that I didn't followed instructions and the bug was present on my scope too with boot ver. 0.0.1.2

author: akkarin
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 30, 2016, 03:47:17 pm
content: I really would love to hear from rigol. But it does seem they don't care.Wasn't a rigol employee reading here? How about a statement? What's the current status?

author: Marcos
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 30, 2016, 06:06:34 pm
content: They don't care about this anymore.They don't care about their expensive scopes so why would they bother with the "entry level " stuff.Read the forum and you'll see that even their expensive scopes have a lot of problems and how many peoples are complaining about firmware and bugs.Anyway, it will always be someone here to tell you that for such a price you paid for it's not a big deal.I can not understand how somebody can be happy with a product which states that have some features but some of them are not working.Was anywhere specified that you have to pay 400 bucks .. but ... please people, don't expect to have it working as it was advertised!

author: Kaziq
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 01, 2016, 08:35:06 pm
content: Hello everyone. I have just registered here to tell that my newly bought Rigol DS1054Z has the freezing bug (and the other bugs as well: the math bug and the "pluses" counting bug).My boot version is 0.0.1.2, so that doesn't add much to the knowledge (just may tip the scales in favour of those with 0.0.1.2 and the freezing).Also I have made a mistake by installing the newest firmware "upgrade", which just made the scope more sluggish without fixing most of the bugs. I did that before reading through the entire topic, and the description for the firmware changes seemed to mention that the freezing had been solved there (but I'm not a Chinglish native speaker, so I could have misunderstood that part).I have wondered about a possibility of writing a custom firmware from scratch, but gave it up finally. That's not what I paid Rigol for. And I doubt there would be enough people willing to donate to someone to do what Rigol should do (that's not what they paid for too). It would help if Rigol made the software open-source. We would make it ten times better than it is now, but I guess there is no chance for that.Do they care? One would think they do. They have made the arrangements to sent alsetalokin4017 a new scope and get one that has the bug. Strange that they did not have any such on their own. That suggests all theirs already had boot version 0.0.1.3. Couldn't they downgrade the boot loader to test? Either they didn't believe that was the reason and everyone was toolazybusy to check it just in case (are you kidding?) or they have deleted old boot loader code and literally couldn't get one to test (come on, no one can bethatdumb, right?). Their silence in the boot loader matter is interesting however. It suggests that they did a dumb thing, one or another, and don't want to admit it.

author: Marcos
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2016, 10:33:21 am
content: Apply the hack to upgrade trial options to Official and see the magic. Board version will change from 0.1.1. to 0.2.3 from time to time.Now imagine what a piece of junk is inside this scope. Use the scope with time base bigger than 1 sec and it will take ages to refresh the screen.Hopefully peoples will stop buying this crap forever and Rigol will be sued to feel the customer frustration about their products.Thanks God I sold mine but I feel sad about new owner, maybe he will use it just as a decoration inside his lab

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2016, 11:28:28 am
content: Quote from: Marcos on February 02, 2016, 10:33:21 amyou can either...1) use roll mode from horizontal timebase menu or,2) buy graph logging multimeter like Fluke 287 or,use the right tool or the right option in the menu, a 100MHz scope is not meant for 1s timeframe capture, but at least it can show some..Quote from: Marcos on February 02, 2016, 10:33:21 ami'm frustrated with my Rigol because it cannot make coffee for me..Quote from: Marcos on February 02, 2016, 10:33:21 amif he doesnt know how to use it, then that it will become... are you spammer from Siglent or gwInstek guy?

author: markone
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2016, 12:05:48 pm
content: Quote from: Marcos on February 02, 2016, 10:33:21 amJust out of curiosity, just to know your quality references, could you share which new scope have you chosen ?

author: Karel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2016, 03:54:35 pm
content: Quote from: Marcos on February 02, 2016, 10:33:21 amI don't agree. For this price, Rigol has the best bang for buck. For most hobbyists, the Rigol DS1054z is still the best choice.The bugs still left in the latest firmware, are no dealbreakers.If you want better specs or better firmware, you have to pay a lot more.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2016, 08:13:15 pm
content: Quote from: Marcos on February 02, 2016, 10:33:21 amThe "problem" you picked as an example does not give you much credibility, Marcos. Don't understand the need to fill the pre-trigger buffer, then wait for a trigger event? This is in no way a weakness of the DS1000Z, in my view, but a fundamental behaviour of digital scopes. Mechatrommer has already explained the scope setting to use if you want to avoid this.The DS1000Z series is not perfect, but none of the known bugs and limitations has ever seriously hampered my hobby use. As mentioned by others, it's great "bang for the buck". It also certainly has enough "bang" for my needs.

author: Marcos
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2016, 09:41:14 pm
content: Quote from: Mechatrommer on February 02, 2016, 11:28:28 amHave you seen any of my posts advertising their products?Thanks for the tips anyway.Any comments about the "floating" board number?Does that mean something for you guys?Start your scope..bang...vers.0.1.1Restart...0.2.3 Does that feel right for you?Maybe those of you guys who are supporting this scope have the new bootloader version and you never seen such errors on yours. Lucky youBut try to think about all those who still have this version. Is it right or wrong?Why after they got the broken scope fromalsetalokin4017they are still quiet?Why in Poland they still sell this "buggy" version?

author: canibalimao
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2016, 08:36:16 am
content: Quote from: Marcos on February 02, 2016, 09:41:14 pmWhy should them stop selling those models in Poland, if they don't assume the fault, and keep selling in other countries? Why is Poland special?

author: Marcos
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2016, 01:07:01 pm
content: Quote from: canibalimao on February 03, 2016, 08:36:16 amIt's not about Poland being special. Was just an example based on location from the other user who said that he recently bought the scope and still have the bugs.But your point is really good. Theydon't wantto assume the fault , still they are aware that the fault exist.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2016, 01:09:28 pm
content: Quote from: Marcos on February 02, 2016, 10:33:21 amWell... it might.Ifit's waiting for a trigger eventandhas a huge memory buffer selected.Just so you know: Triggering can be turned off, memory buffer size can be configured.It's the way DSOs work.Quote from: Marcos on February 02, 2016, 10:33:21 amOr... maybe he's perfectly happy because he knows how to use a DSO.Your loss, his gain.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2016, 01:45:12 pm
content: Totally. This scope is cheap enough that absolute beginners can afford them, so they buy one, but don't know what they're doing and blame the scope. Look at this amazon review of it:Quote from:http://www.amazon.com/gp/customer-reviews/R1QVTHKS9ILG1A/ref=cm_cr_pr_rvw_ttl?ie=UTF8&ASIN=B012938E76I replied with the following comment. If I'm wrong in something I said, feel free to tell me and I shall adjust accordingly.Quote

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2016, 03:25:34 pm
content: Quotesounds like a Siglent/Instek fanboy who got sucked up by the1Mpoints FFT brainwash stuff. or a blind faith believer ofDave's Chapter 845 (17:45)

author: GonzoTheGreat
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2016, 01:41:46 pm
content: So what is the current status of the Freeze Bug and the Math Bug ?Did Rigol acknowledge them?Did the latest software update fix them?If "not" - when is the next version due ?

author: alsetalokin4017
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2016, 06:01:20 pm
content: Quote from: GonzoTheGreat on February 22, 2016, 01:41:46 pmFreeze Bug: As far as I can tell this bug is associated with Boot Version 0.0.1.2. Perhaps not all scopes with that version will freeze. The newer Boot Version 0.0.1.3 does not seem to have this particular bug. If you have the earlier Boot Version and the bug, the rest of the firmware doesn't matter, it will still freeze when the conditions are met even with the latest SP2 firmware update. There does not appear to be any way for the user to update the Boot Version -- that I know of. I have asked Rigol USA several times about this but never got a real answer. I returned my old scope with the Freeze Bug to Rigol USA in return for a newer one with Boot Version 0.0.1.3 but have not heard anything from them about it. As far as I can tell all scopes that have the Freeze Bug are using Boot Version 0.0.1.2. I had both scopes (BV 0.0.1.2 and BV 0.0.1.3) for about three days and tested them side-by-side under identical setups and conditions.At the beginning of this thread we did not know how to display the full System Information screen which shows the Boot Version and other scope data, so we didn't collect that data for most of the people who reported freezing. The procedure to do this is to press _very fast_ the keys in the Trigger section: Menu, Menu, Force, Menu, and then Utility>System>System Info. This should bring up a complete System Information screen. If it doesn't work at first, press the key sequence faster.Math Bug at 500 ns/div: I've heard nothing from Rigol about this bug, and it is not fixed by the latest software update. At 500 ns/div with a Math trace displayed that uses two-trace math like A+B, A*B, etc. the Math result is offset horizontally from the input traces and appears to be at a slightly different horizontal scale.Measurements Fail bug: I reported this to Rigol USA as soon as I found it, and they were able to reproduce it immediately on their scopes. This one seems to have been introduced by the update to latest firmware SP2; at least I never noticed it on earlier versions. It may also be related to Boot Version 0.0.1.3. If you have a Math trace running, all Measurements will simply stop working at some random time, and cannot be restarted. You have to power-cycle the scope to get Measurements back. The "work-around" is to not display the Math trace continuously but only have it up for a few seconds while needed. Still, the Measurements may stop working in those few seconds since the time-to-failure is random. All Measurements stop working (except Hardware Freq. Counter), not just the ones you may have displayed at the time, and power-cycling is the only way I've found to get them back working again.All these bugs are there whether the scope is "unlocked" to 100 MHz with all options, or "virgin" stock 50 MHz with no extra options.When is the next firmware version due? I don't know. Maybe Rigol knows.... certainly there are plenty of things that need fixing. The SP2 firmware introduced the Measurements Fail bug, the Pluses spelling error, the occasional pulses miscounting, and the really bad slowing down of certain control responses like Vertical Positioning and others. And it did not fix the Math horizontal error at 500 ns/div. It did fix a few other things that were annoying to me, and that's good.Rigol really should make it possible to easily roll back to earlier firmware versions, so that people can try new firmware releases and if they don't like the effects they can go back to earlier versions. I think many people are unhappy about the slowing down caused by the latest SP2 firmware. That doesn't bother me as much as the Measurements Fail bug though. Not being able to roll back to earlier updates is a real "fail" on Rigol's part, as is not providing current Boot Versions in update files.

author: TheSteve
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 22, 2016, 06:21:15 pm
content: Is the boot version even upgradable, or is that portion of the flash locked? I've tried the 4.0.0.0 release that has the boot update in it but my boot version didn't change(in my case a good thing).

author: alsetalokin4017
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2016, 06:51:53 pm
content: There does not appear to be any way for the user to update the Boot Version -- that I know of. I have asked Rigol USA several times about this but never got a real answer.

author: TheSteve
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 22, 2016, 07:52:17 pm
content: Quote from: alsetalokin4017 on February 22, 2016, 06:51:53 pmYet there was at least one firmware release with a boot update and instructions on how to do it. Perhaps there is one specific firmware version out there that would allow an update.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2016, 09:09:57 pm
content: Quote from: TheSteve on February 22, 2016, 07:52:17 pmMy DS1054Z displaysa "software version" - that seems to be the version number typically referred to as the firmware version in the forum,a "firmware version", anda "boot version".Is the difference between the three well-understood? Are we sure that the lower-level "stuff" Rigol distributed with one of the early updates was really a boot loader update, or could it have been a firmware (as opposed to the normal "software") update?Confused...

author: Kaziq
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 25, 2016, 07:34:44 pm
content: Quote from: alsetalokin4017 on February 22, 2016, 06:01:20 pmI have boot version 0.0.1.2 and I can reproduce this bug. So it looks loke it's not boot-related for me.Does anyone beside me hope that the reason Rigol haven't released a firmware update yet is that they started thoroughly testing their new firmware update to avoid releasing one with more bugs this time? I think I'm too optimistic sometimes.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 25, 2016, 08:33:23 pm
content: Quote from: Kaziq on February 25, 2016, 07:34:44 pmI don't think it is either.Logically: The bootloader isn't doing anything once the system is up and running.I think it's a hardware bug. Some internal timing is right on the limit of working/not or something like that. It's the only way it can happen consistently on some scopes and never happen on others.Will it be firmware-fixable? I dunno.

author: GonzoTheGreat
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 30, 2016, 03:33:00 pm
content: Well, what's going on with these bug fixes?Does Rigol even acknowledge them?

author: Towger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 30, 2016, 03:35:11 pm
content: The release updates several times a year.

author: eNigMa_k19
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: July 24, 2016, 06:55:32 am
content: Firmware v00.04.04.00.07 no more freeze up bugBefore updateNothing connected to inputs and persistence on any setting than min would freeze up scope when horizontal zoom enabledAfter updateAny persistence setting and horizontal zoom enabled works nowModel DS1104Z(1054Z enabled all options)SW 00.04.04.00.07Board version 0.2.1Boot version 0.0.1.2FW 0.2.3.11CPLD Version 1.1

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2016, 09:08:37 am
content: Quote from: eNigMa_k19 on July 24, 2016, 06:55:32 amThat must be the"Fixed the bug of system halted for wave persistance in the Zoom mode"in the release notes.

author: alsetalokin4017
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2016, 12:36:22 pm
content: Well... it's nice to know that this "hardware bug" is finally fixed for early Boot Versions, with a software update.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2016, 03:46:26 pm
content: Quote from: alsetalokin4017 on July 24, 2016, 12:36:22 pmIt could be a hardware bug: A variation in timing or something out of spec.The software detects/compensates.

author: technogeeky
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2016, 04:34:38 am
content: Quote from: eNigMa_k19 on July 24, 2016, 06:55:32 amFor what it's worth, I don't have that bug at all, and I'm not at latest firmware:ModelDS1104ZSN(ommitted)Software Version00.04.03.02.03Board Version0.1.4Boot Version0.0.1.4Firmware Version0.2.3.11CPLD Version1.1Build DateSep 11 2015 09:42:... (ommitted)

author: alsetalokin4017
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2016, 05:40:46 am
content: As far as I am aware, only scopes with Boot Version 0.0.1.2 were subject to the Freeze Bug, and (apparently) not all of them. I know of no cases of scopes with Boot Version 0.0.1.3 or 0.0.1.4 that could be made to freeze in this manner.Whether it is a software or hardware bug, I'm just glad that Rigol has finally fixed it. I first reported it to Rigol a little over a year ago.(They fixed it for _me_ by sending me an updated scope with Boot Version 0.0.1.3 installed.)

author: JohnPen
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2016, 10:07:24 am
content: Apologies I should have replied to this thread with the message below.I have upgraded my scope to the latest 2016 f/w and so far I can confirm that the 'lockups' appear to be fixed. The Maths offset using *4017 set up but with a 1Mhz square wave shows no delay offset for A+B, AxB etc. Also I have been unable to reproduce the Stats/Pluses' count lockup despite running for a number of hours. I haven't noticed any slowing of response to controls in comparison with the previous build but one does adapt quickly and forget easily!John

author: JohnPen
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2016, 10:41:28 am
content: Whilst playing around with the X-Y mode I accidentally created a lock up requiring a reboot to clear. Unfortunately I do not know how I did it and cannot recreate it. I had switched to Hor delay/zoom mode, changed my mind and went X-Y mode and it all locked up. Pushing panel buttons never released it. May I hit a f/w hiccup with my button selection speed who knows. Perhaps someone else may manage to create it otherwise or it may be just bad luck?John

author: tv84
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 18, 2018, 02:42:18 pm
content: Sorry for reviving this but just want to inform that I have a GEL with version 4.4.1.1 that has a bootloader version > 0.0.1.2 (for sure) .(It was extracted from a scope NAND).Code:F:\zscan\original\RIGOL\DS1000\DS1000Z-00_04_04_01_01\DS1000ZUpdate_NAND.GEL / CRC32: 4C2EF33800000000 - File Type: DS1000Z00000010 - Software Branch/Version: 00.04.04.01.0100000020 - Bitmask: 00000F0000000024 - # Sections: 11Offset Section Name SectiSz StartAdr CRC32 Type00000028 /sys/SparrowAPP.out 00107791 000002BC 865DD4FE 00000001 [000002BC-00107A4C] CRC OK00000064 /sys/SparrowFPGA.hex 000C4372 00107A4D C72D7DD0 00000005 [00107A4D-001CBDBE] CRC OK000000A0 /sys/SparrowDGFPGA.hex 00046F04 001CBDBF AD60366F 00000006 [001CBDBF-00212CC2] CRC OK000000DC /sys/SparrowBootloader.sb 000503B0 00212CC3 E62EF3EE 00000008 [00212CC3-00263072] CRC OK00000118 /sys/logo.hex 000BB818 00263073 1F2E52B7 0000000A [00263073-0031E88A] CRC OK00000154 /sys/guiResData.hex 000B6B34 0031E88B 9C2E4FC0 0000000C [0031E88B-003D53BE] CRC OK00000190 /sys/guiPicData.hex 0001E6BF 003D53BF 10D74A0D 00000011 [003D53BF-003F3A7D] CRC OK000001CC /sys/SparrowConfig.hex 000BB818 003F3A7E 09D39C43 00000010 [003F3A7E-004AF295] CRC OK00000208 /sys/SparrowWaveTable.hex 000020E8 004AF296 B1CE7C07 0000000B [004AF296-004B137D] CRC OK00000244 /sys/SparrowCalFile.hex 00022EFD 004B137E 91673CA7 0000000F [004B137E-004D427A] CRC OK00000280 00000118 004D427B 00000000 00000032 [004D427B-004D4392]Offset CRC32 Flags Filesize Endianes Branch/Version000002BC 82AC1341 00000003 00107779 AA5555AA 00.04.04.01.01 [000002D4-00107A4C] CRC OK00107A4D C9AF5D56 00000000 000C435A AA5555AA 00.04.04.01.01 [00107A65-001CBDBE] CRC OK001CBDBF 138E13B9 00000000 00046EEC AA5555AA 00.04.04.01.01 [001CBDD7-00212CC2] CRC OK00212CC3 -------- -------- -------- -------- -------------- [00212CC3-00263072]*** Bootloader Header ***00212CC3 Header SHA-1: 49D6C3738FA6FD2AE905AAF7E090E7EF79BA5463 [00212CD7-00212D22] HASH OK00212CD7 Signature 1: STMP MAGIC OK00212CDB Format Version: 1.100212CDD Flags: 0x000000212CDF Image Size: 000503B000212CE3 1st Boot Tag Offset: 00212D5300212CE7 1st Boot Section ID:00212CEB # Encryption Keys: 100212CED Key Dictionary Start: 00212D3300212CEF Header Size: 0000006000212CF1 # Section Headers: 100212CF3 Section Header Size: 16 bytes00212CF5 Random Padding: 0x5EBD00212CF7 Signature 2: sgtl (Sigmatel?)00212CFB Creation Time: 27-04-2015 14:28:3900212D03 Product Version: 999.999.99900212D0F Component Version: 999.999.99900212D1B Drive Tag: 0x000000212D1D Random Padding: 0x8F9A3D11874A*** Sections Table ***00212D23 ID: | Ofs: 00212D63 | Len: 000502F0 | Flg: 00000001 - ROM_SECTION_BOOTABLE*** Key Dictionary ***00212D33 OTP Key0 Hash: DB4E7528C0F9A5207DD91E755303EC2B CBC-MAC_AES OK*** Session Key (decrypted) ***00212D43 Key: 46A9672A461903686222309F13ED6302 (using OTP Key0)*** Sections (decrypted) ***00212D53 TAG | 0001 | Sect ID: | Len: 000502F0 | Flg: 00000001 - ROM_SECTION_BOOTABLE00212D63 LOAD | 0000 | Adr: 00000000 | Len: 0000003C | CRC: 408DF430 CRC OK00212DB3 LOAD | 0000 | Adr: 00000400 | Len: 00003548 | CRC: DAE63C06 CRC OK00216313 FILL | 0000 | Adr: 00018000 | Len: 00000960 | Ptn: 0000000000216323 LOAD | 0000 | Adr: 00008000 | Len: 00000020 | CRC: 4D3C6D73 CRC OK00216353 CALL | 0001 | Adr: 00008000 | Len: 00000000 | Arg: 0000000000216363 LOAD | 0000 | Adr: 00000000 | Len: 00000040 | CRC: A9978A44 CRC OK002163B3 FILL | 0000 | Adr: 00007FFC | Len: 00000004 | Ptn: 00000000002163C3 LOAD | 0000 | Adr: 41000000 | Len: 0004CC10 | CRC: 2AE4A733 CRC OK00262FE3 FILL | 0000 | Adr: 41300000 | Len: 00001900 | Ptn: 0000000000262FF3 FILL | 0000 | Adr: 41301900 | Len: 00003B44 | Ptn: 0000000000263003 FILL | 0000 | Adr: 41900000 | Len: 00300000 | Ptn: 0000000000263013 LOAD | 0000 | Adr: 00008000 | Len: 00000020 | CRC: DF5BA493 CRC OK00263043 JUMP | 0001 | Adr: 00008000 | Len: 00000000 | Arg: 00000000*** File SHA-1 Hash (decrypted) ***00263053 File SHA-1: C0274B0B57C7687849AB8D042F3E3C23142D9D42 [00212CC3-00263052] HASH OKBlock Processed OK00263073 9B4EA177 00000000 000BB800 AA5555AA 00.04.04.01.01 [0026308B-0031E88A] CRC OK0031E88B 271E3AB5 00000000 000B6B1C AA5555AA 00.04.04.01.01 [0031E8A3-003D53BE] CRC OK003D53BF 01873014 00000001 0001E6A7 AA5555AA 00.04.04.01.01 [003D53D7-003F3A7D] CRC OK003F3A7E 5DEF7058 00000000 000BB800 AA5555AA 00.04.04.01.01 [003F3A96-004AF295] CRC OK004AF296 27F4C06F 00000000 000020D0 AA5555AA 00.04.04.01.01 [004AF2AE-004B137D] CRC OK004B137E 1E61A8F6 00000000 00022EE5 AA5555AA 00.04.04.01.01 [004B1396-004D427A] CRC OKFile Processed OKIf anyone is still interested in upgrading the bootloader, please contact.

author: Shock
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 18, 2018, 03:54:16 pm
content: Quote from: tv84 on April 18, 2018, 02:42:18 pmQuote from: Shock on August 20, 2015, 07:24:38 amMy bootloader is at 0.0.1.3 and I think I'm still on the original firmware it came with as well.So not sure about if updating to that would be meaningful.But you should attachthe original complete archiveof the version you haveunmodifiedin this thread or theother thread. Alsoadvise the source of the version(where you got it from, or better yet link to it) and thecircumstances in which it was provided.Then people can extract and do a compare on the code and see exactly what has changed.Without knowing the above or comparing to the other bootloaders we won't know exactly what it's inclusion in this version achieves.

author: tv84
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 18, 2018, 05:00:18 pm
content: Schock,The NAND dump was provided by smithnerd, the extraction was done by janekivi and I just confirmed the extraction and parsed it along with the other GELs that are publicly available.What I posted previously is the complete parsing of that GEL file. You can compare it to the original 4.4.1.1 that is provided by rigol and it's precisely the same.The only thing that is extra is the bootloader.Please look at this message with the GEL parsingshttps://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-dsxxxx-gel-firmware-file-format/msg1479419/#msg1479419and the next one with the bootloaders compilation + bootloader 1.2 ZIP which I didn't find (also) publicly available. This one was dumped by janekivi from it's own NVRAM.Later, I'll link the file and you all can play with it and compare with previous versions.I haven't yet tried to see where the version number is placed in the bootloader but once I discover it, I'll be able to inform if it's a 1.3 or 1.4 version. I don't have this scope...

author: tv84
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 18, 2018, 08:49:24 pm
content: Link of the 4.4.1.1 with bootloader:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-dsxxxx-gel-firmware-file-format/msg1481222/#msg1481222

author: Shock
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 18, 2018, 09:28:52 pm
content: Ok they may have removed that 4.4.1.1 version with the bootloader. Unless you can find the original link for me, original release notes or a date stamp or something that points to when it was released? I can find the one that replaced it no problem.Btw if you read this post linked below it says it will nuke your scope if you have lower than a version 0.0.13 bootloader and apply that update.So yeah beware about giving that specific version to someone to apply. It's probably a typo and applicable to versions below 0.0.1.3 (makes more sense to me anyway).Edit: I've confirmed the bootloader 0.0.13 is for an early firmware version 00.02.03.05.00 which is prior to version bootloader 0.0.1.0, 0.0.1.1, 0.0.1.2, 0.0.1.3 etc.https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/just-upgrade-my-rigol-ds1054z-to-the-4-04-firmware/msg1068031/#msg1068031

author: tv84
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 19, 2018, 10:33:21 am
content: Quote from: Shock on April 18, 2018, 09:28:52 pmMy goal was to help. You guys know better.But, what I think it says there is that you shouldn't have 4.4.1.1 with bootloaders < 0.0.1.3.So, this GEL that I shared solves that problem because it will, besides upgrading the APP, also upgrade the bootloader to >= 0.0.1.3.What I can't understand is why Rigol didn't make it public!Just my 50 cents...

author: Shock
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 19, 2018, 12:58:54 pm
content: Quote from: tv84 on April 19, 2018, 10:33:21 amI was wrong on the version number (I edited my post), but it appears you can still nuke/brick older scopes that have a very early bootloader prior to 0.0.13 (which is before bootloader 0.0.1.0) with the bootloader that came with the firmware 4.4.1.1. Not sure that impacts a whole lot of people but just putting it out there (it's better than not telling people).Don't get me wrong, go for it.I'm still after a link or source of original 4.4.1.1 with bootloader before they replaced or removed it. So yeah PM or link me if you have it.Anyway this thread should be left to die.

author: rudy_sj
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: December 11, 2019, 04:05:54 pm
content: Hi,I have a Rigol DS4000 series scope, the DS4024. It's obviously not the 1054, but maybe they are much the same. Had it for a few years and it has been absolutely fine, until today. It behaves something like the original owner of this thread describes. It locks up on booting and shows only "Rigol" on the screen and a bunch of LED's are lit. Stays like this forever. The trick with pressing the fifth left button on power up doesn't work. If I press the "Help" button on power up, it doesn't even say "Rigol". The screen is black. The only sign of life now is the "Single" button is lit.Anybody having a clue?I would be very happy.Rudy

author: Shock
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2019, 10:26:38 pm
content: Welcome to the forums, please start new thread byclicking on this link.Include as much info as you can including photos, feel free to link back to this or any other thread if you think it's related.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2019, 08:42:43 am
content: Quote from: rudy_sj on December 11, 2019, 04:05:54 pmBetter to start a new thread for this. It's nothing to do with the DS1054Z and nothing to do with the original problem.(which was "The scope freezes up, becomes totally non-responsive (but still displays live waveform) when the Horizontal Zoom mode is engaged, and a Persistence Time other than "min" is selected. ")