Picture-in-picture video for the blog? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 09, 2014, 04:49:00 am
content: I figure the general chat section is best for this.This new Panasonic camcorder just released got me thinking about this idea I had long ago.http://www.trustedreviews.com/panasonic-hc-w850_Camcorder_reviewWhat would people think about my blogs (mailbag in particular, and other "behind the camera" work) having a picture-in-picture function with my ugly mug automatically inserted into the corner?This camcorder looks absolutely perfect for that.I do get complaints that I'm not on-camera enough these days...

author: notsob
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2014, 04:51:48 am
content: only if you hold your tongue at the correct angle

author: rexxar
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2014, 04:55:13 am
content: I think it'd be a good idea for videos where you're behind the camera the whole time, like the mailbag. Maybe it's worth a shot strapping a webcam to your camera to see how it turns out?

author: ThunderSqueak
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 09, 2014, 04:56:34 am
content: IMHOIt is OK if you want to do a first impression video, as we can see your emotions, however for most things it can be quite distracting. I would rather see the circuit in the tear-down rather than a talking head.~Thundersqueak

author: Falcon69
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2014, 04:58:21 am
content: Agreed, some things, yes, would be cool to see you talking and working, other times, just what's being video'd.

author: kevinchen
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: January 09, 2014, 05:02:35 am
content: Only if it's used judiciously (turn it off if your face blocks something in the main image or if it's not important to see your facial expression/reaction)

author: Maxlor
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2014, 06:15:27 am
content: I don't know, in most videos where you show some thing as opposed to yourself, it seems that it takes a fair bit of concentration to juggle talking, keeping the object in the frame and actually do the task that you want to do. Having a second camera isn't going to make that easier. Besides, in talking head videos, people expected you to talk to the camera, which would also interfere with what you actually want to do.An idea I like better is just having two cameras running at the same time, so you can switch between them at the editing stage. I'm thinking of the mailbag segment here, where it would be more natural to just have a half-body-portrait shot of you opening the packages, which would remove some the awkwardness of doing it under the close-up camera, and we might get to see some surprised reactions on occasion. And if the close-up camera is set up and running, transitioning to item closeups and back should be fairly smooth.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 09, 2014, 06:32:34 am
content: Quote from: Maxlor on January 09, 2014, 06:15:27 amTrue, but considering that mostly watch what I'm shooting on the camcorder screen anyway, having the 2nd cam there should work, provided it's framed right.This is the reason why I often miss stuff, because I'm viewing the screen instead of the thing I'm shooting.QuoteGood in theory, but in practice an absolute nightmare. Fine if it's just a single shot video (very rare), but when you have dozens or even hundreds of clips, trying to sync these up in the edit process would literally increase my editing time by an order of magnitude. I do almost everything in camera if humanly possible. Anything else is simply not an option.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 09, 2014, 06:33:27 am
content: Quote from: kevinchen on January 09, 2014, 05:02:35 amYes, I need to check how easy it is to turn off and on. Hopefully a dedicated button.

author: pickle9000
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2014, 06:49:31 am
content: There are a couple youtube vids by panasonic, fairly impressive quality from the looks of it.It could be pretty handy getting a scope screen or dmm in shot while keeping the camera fixed on a board.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 09, 2014, 06:58:32 am
content: Quote from: pickle9000 on January 09, 2014, 06:49:31 amThat's very possible, yes. I currently do this very reluctantly with a 2nd camera when required.

author: hiddensoul
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2014, 07:00:34 am
content: Quote from: pickle9000 on January 09, 2014, 06:49:31 amI second that, might come in very handy for that watching a scope/DMM while probing around

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 09, 2014, 07:04:24 am
content: Quote from: hiddensoul on January 09, 2014, 07:00:34 amI do want to do that quite often, but it's just real pain to setup and do right, so I juts usually op-out and take a single wide shot.If this camera makes this choice trivial then I can picture then I can't wait!It falls into the "shut and take my money" category, but I can't seem to find a release date or other details. B&H have it on pre-sale.

author: tealsuki
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2014, 07:04:58 am
content: Quote from: pickle9000 on January 09, 2014, 06:49:31 amIf Dave's doing screen capture at the time on his computer, or some post-narration, having his face in the corner might make it seem more friendly with the eye contact and whatnot, but other than that, I think PIP should only be used for say, identifying a test point, probing it, and showing the output on the oscope or DMM all at the same time.If it's going to double your editing complexity, you've gotten along just fine without it, but there's some situations where I think it could definitely add production value.EDIT: Probably should have read the linked article first. It's neat that the camera has a second camera in it, but as you've already got two working cameras, I don't see a need for a third (with fourth built in). That being said, picture in picture is a neat idea, I would like to see it in future videos if the situation calls for it

author: Jon86
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2014, 07:11:46 am
content: I feel like it's just another step that's going to waste more of your time, Dave. Not that I don't like seeing your face, but I think it's just going to be distracting. Whenever people do the webcam in the corner thing it just gets in the way, I don't think it's suitable for something like the EEVBlog. When we need to see your face, turn it round, otherwise I wouldn't bother.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 09, 2014, 08:32:33 am
content: Quote from: tealsuki on January 09, 2014, 07:04:58 amThe point is that with this camera it's all done in-camera. It doesn't add any effort to my editing or workflow.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 09, 2014, 08:34:59 am
content: Quote from: wilfred on January 09, 2014, 07:57:37 amI don't know, that's why I'm asking. Mailbag is the classic example. 30+ minutes without a single shot of me or my reaction when I open the packages.

author: czdt8m
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2014, 08:43:22 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on January 09, 2014, 06:58:32 amAll for it for shots of DMM or scope during probing.Personally, I think the talking head shot as an intro and for a round-up at the end is perfect. Don't see the need for it as PIP.

author: hiddensoul
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2014, 08:45:09 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on January 09, 2014, 08:34:59 amyes Mailbag would be a great use as well, sometimes I am trying to imagine what your expression is to a package opening based on your tone of voice, and for someone that is Hearing impaired that can be hard, in noisy environments (like your Ham radio Club Visit) I would find it really helpful to see your mug as it means I can pick words easier by watching your lips but not all your viewers are deafies like me so I don't expect you to accommodate me on that level...

author: jancumps
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 09, 2014, 09:23:44 am
content: But mailbag is the most popular section, and your mug is not in there...

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 09, 2014, 11:22:16 am
content: Quote from: jancumps on January 09, 2014, 09:23:44 amSure, but maybe it'll be even more popular with PIP?The only way to find out is to try.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2014, 11:31:31 am
content: PIP on that camera would mean you have to work pretty close to the rear of the camera, or in a small angle of the camera. Not going to be an easy thing to keep in mind all the time.

author: Majorstrain
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2014, 02:24:14 pm
content: You know,If that AV socket was an auxiliary input for the PIP and not a general output it would be a whole lot more attractive and flexible for what your looking for.Of cause, then you'd have to find sources with an AV output but the second camera could be located anywhere.Cheers.

author: Orpheus
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2014, 05:08:02 pm
content: I've taken a lot of MOOCs where the professor uses PIP, and after a while it just starts to seen needless, even when the professor is very animated (and occasionally distracting when they are attractive). I don't see how it will help smooth your workflow (It doesn't seem to in these courses) but you're the expert.I would agree that a second (PIP) view would be very useful, but the fixed PIP camera seems to negate most of the benefits and possibilities. It seems to have made it through Marketing on the popularity of front/back cell-cams (which I've rarely seen used to any great effect, but appeal to consumers at purchase time)

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2014, 05:19:39 pm
content: I have a cell phone with front and back camera. Do not think I ever used the front camera except by accident.

author: Legit-Design
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2014, 05:44:57 pm
content: It's always easier to understand someone talking when you can actually see them. Seeing someone wave their hands in front of camera is not even close. Could argue something about most of communication not being verbal. So yes add PIP, maybe mostly for shots where you spit out long monologues and not much is actually happening in front of camera. In youtube seconds feel like minutes and so on.

author: mixt
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2014, 06:08:33 pm
content: PIP has very distinct purposes in more typical entertainment. For example, car videos that give you a view of what the driver is seeing, a PIP with the instrument cluster, and another PIP with the view of the pedals. All of those can be interesting at different times. Asian TV shows tend to have a PIP of the hosts to capture their reactions as they're seeing something happening live. Since people in general love seeing others' reactions (hence a boom of reaction videos on youtube), this type of PIP captures that.I would say that for your videos, it is entirely unnecessary because you're not gearing your videos to those kinds of audiences. For your audience, what would be more useful is let's say a top view wide angle shot in a PIP while the main video is a closeup. This would give people a sense of context. Or a PIP of the scope screen while you're probing something in the main video. We all love seeing you talk about things, but it's better as a separate full screen shot. A PIP of your head would be useful to capture your reaction if you're about to do something truly iffy.

author: ohmineer
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2014, 09:33:11 pm
content: I second the use of PIP because I think that sometimes can be very useful. I am not talking about seeing Dave face, emotions or expression all the time. My opinion is that PIP can be useful, for example, in this situations:- Probing something in an actual PCB. Hands and oscilloscope screen can be seen both at a decent angle.- Hardware that interacts with PC show hardware actions and their effect on PC (Last video about USB microscopes is a good example).- Changes in test, measurement and supply instruments when touching some parts of a circuit.I think there are a lot of good uses of this function. I would love to see them in future videos!

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2014, 09:54:16 pm
content: Maybe add someone who does sign language for death people. I've heard someone in South Africa is looking for a jobSeriously: I'd use split screen/PIP only where appropriate for example to show cause and effect or theory and practise. Just a talking head in the corner isn't going to improve things.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2014, 09:58:05 pm
content: Watch it, we will set Bob on you. i speak to a lot of deaf people at my local supermarket, they are always willing to smile and listen as we mime to each other. Local bank has a deaf teller, who is very nice to deal with. Always get into her line if possible.

author: rollatorwieltje
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 09, 2014, 11:09:16 pm
content: Every time I see one of those videos with a talking head in the corner it reminds me of those old first person shooters. Maybe you should also include a health bar and selected weapon.

author: mixt
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2014, 12:02:47 am
content: Quote from: rollatorwieltje on January 09, 2014, 11:09:16 pmI second this haha. A relevant metric would be Dave's patience instead of health.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2014, 12:10:14 am
content: @rollatorwieltje: you just made my day. Hilareous!I'm sorry Dave. It seems you have opened a can of worms.

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2014, 12:12:24 am
content: I voted no, or very rarely.Nice to know I'm with the majority for a change.

author: Zad
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2014, 03:14:56 am
content: Talking-head-in-picture always reminds me of cheesy marketing video, usually voiced by a young attractive female who can't even spell engineer, let alone do the job. Often accompanied by huge teethy grins and head bobbing.In good lectures, do you look at the lecturer or the material being delivered? Exactly.

author: pickle9000
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2014, 04:06:21 am
content: Youtube stuffCES today should retail for under 1000.00Commercial with the pip stuffShots showing the picture quality (very nice)I do think it's a worthwhile buy, Dave is a one man show anything to potentially make the "show" more interesting to look at the better. Be great for a driving rant.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2014, 04:19:24 am
content: Quote from: Zad on January 10, 2014, 03:14:56 amhttps://www.youtube.com/user/TastyPCTV/videosIf Lauren (host of TastyPCTV) posted the same poll, the results would probably be heavily biased in favor of picture in picture...

author: Excavatoree
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2014, 01:31:27 pm
content: I don't think it's necessary to show Dave's head during package opening, troubleshooting, things like that, but I can see how PIP would be useful. A complicated oscilloscope display could be shown on the main screen, with the smaller picture showing the test points, for example. Or, the small picture could show the multimeter display, or front panel as Dave made a change or adjustment.

author: kolbep
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2014, 08:55:10 pm
content: If you want to do multicamera shots, where 2 or or more cameras are in use, you can use a program called pluraleyes. It works even if you do stop start shooting.Dump all your footage into seperate tracks:Main cam,Pip cam, (must be on track higher than main cam)And other cameras / audio sources etc.plural eyes will then sync using the audio tracks.take your pip cam track, resize and reposition it,add a glow or shadow around it.then split the pip shots, delete where you dont want the pip to show up,and then Bobs your uncle, and Fannies your aunt, away you go.for school concert, I did the same thing, but I have 2 pips coming up now and then, one at bottom left, and one at bottom right, to show the children that are on the corners of the stage, and are not part of the main action.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 10, 2014, 10:07:39 pm
content: Quote from: Zad on January 10, 2014, 03:14:56 amBut something like the mailbag isn't a lecture, it's entertainment.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 10, 2014, 10:15:42 pm
content: Quote from: kolbep on January 10, 2014, 08:55:10 pmTurns out I have Plural eyes, got it with my Rode mic. Never used it.The problem of camera angle remains though.If I use two different cameras, I can't have the 2nd camera right next to the main camcorder LCD screen which I'm looking at, so the angle will be wrong and I wouldn't have visual feddback that my head is within frame. This new panasonic camera integrates the camera right were it's needed and provides the visual feedback.I might trial this with my next mailbag though.

author: Maxlor
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2014, 10:55:34 pm
content: You simply need a camera crew. And before you say you can't afford one, how about a robotic one? Shouldn't be that difficult to mount a camera on two servo-controlled axes and have it track your head. Seems to work fine for the paintball turrets you can find on youtube

author: Dave Turner
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2014, 11:41:42 pm
content: DaveOf the many electronic engineering based video productions one can watch, yours is definitely one of, if not, the best. Your camera is steady, you don't jump around all the time between shots and you're usually in focus (with the exception of when you are in shot and holding something up to the camera by hand).Too many productions (not yours) are ruined by continually wandering between targets with out of focus shots which, despite excellent content otherwise, makes them unwatchable without becoming seasick.However you achieve it, I agree with other members of this forum who suggest that PiPs are best suited to showing a scope trace and/or meter readings whilst probing a circuit; or vice versa with the bigger screen showing a scope trace and the inset the probing, whichever gets your point across best, even possibly occasionally including your face if necessary.Perhaps you might be better served by sourcing a video mixer to record your various cameras at the same time as a PiP composite rather than a specific camera.For what it's worthDave

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 11, 2014, 12:11:01 am
content: Quote from: Dave Turner on January 10, 2014, 11:41:42 pmThat's all I'm really talking about, nothing more, with the possible exception of mailbag. But even with mailbag, the head shots would only come in while opening and initial reaction, after that it effectively become a regular teardown/review video.QuoteThat would not be workable. I need the freedom afforded by a battery powered camcorder with no leads or other paraphernalia hanging off and having to deal with. An external mixer would require horrible HDMI cables and just increase my effort in workflow and editing.I get these sorts of suggestion all the time, and it quite hard to articulate how important the way I do things is to my workflow and editing etc.The only reason I'm considering this at all is because this new camcorder would allow me to do it with virtually zero effort or change to my existing workflow.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 11, 2014, 12:12:18 am
content: Quote from: Maxlor on January 10, 2014, 10:55:34 pmInterestingly, with the new Panasonic camcorder, they have also released a battery powered head tracking tripod mount to suit.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 11, 2014, 05:07:37 am
content: Quote from: wilfred on January 11, 2014, 01:55:23 amOf course, you can have workflow for anything, but it doesn't mean it is efficient.I can't possibly see how any workflow based on syncing mutiple cameras would be better than my current single camera workflow, I suspect it's totally impossible for that to be so.Yes, I can try it of course and see the reaction, and I plan to do that.

author: pickle9000
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2014, 05:52:16 am
content: If you do try a test, maybe you could do a couple variations. Head shot, dmm while probing shot. Of course you could fake it. Take a pick of yourself and put it on a stick in the corner of the screen, maybe tap it from time to time to make it more visually appealing.

author: kolonelkadat
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2014, 07:29:48 am
content: I just want to say that I watch your channel because I like seeing electronics. Your channel provides me an opportunity to see things i would never otherwise see. With that being the case, im not entirely keen on having a portion of the interesting bits obscured. truth be told, I doubt id stop watching regardless of what you decide.With that in mind, here are my thoughts.meter readings, fine. could be nice to just have the readout in the corner instead of you having to try to shoehorn the meter and the device into the same shot.o'scope readings, sure if its like a repair video or something. Actually, in video #567 (precision 1A current source) when you were showing how different caps and such affected the signal would have been an acceptable time to use pip. show the signal on the main screen and the caps being changed in the small screen.your 'reactions' aka "scarecam", no absolutely not. Well, maybe if you want to be a joke. ie"You have to get your tongue at just the rig-- *zap* oh no ive angled my tongue in to an electrical outlet! Im so silly! like and subscribe!"

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 11, 2014, 07:30:09 am
content: Quote from: wilfred on January 11, 2014, 06:30:23 amI've already "trialled" that. I've done at least few videos were I decided to include dual camera PIP shot, like the scope screen and the breadboard.No complaints, and obviously a worthwhile thing to do in those circumstances.The reason I don't do it more often is because it's annoying. You have to set up the 2nd camera, make sure it's got battery and card, got all the right video settings, and then I have to edit it which means figuring out what clip goes where and then syncing them up and manually doing the PIP effect on every clip.The new Panasonic camera would eliminate all of that for certain things where it's usable.QuoteI know the new camera will be restrictive, but it's not like I toss out my old ones. For many scope screen/probing shots it may not be usable at all. I would still be forced to use a true dual camera setup which I can currently do and know how flexible it is.I know for almost certain the new camera will allow me to do PIP in certain circumstances without any fuss at all, and that's why I'm asking here, whether people would want more PIP stuff, because I'd effectively be getting it for "free"?

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 11, 2014, 07:35:56 am
content: Quote from: kolonelkadat on January 11, 2014, 07:29:48 amHey, don't diss that, it works!https://www.youtube.com/user/msadaghd/aboutSimilar stats to me, but he's only done 24 videos.