Class Suit Action against Engineers Australia for Electronics Engineers of old? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: intmpe
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 27, 2020, 06:27:53 am
content: Legal Action against Engineers Australia? Calling all Australian Engineers that may have been denied MIEAUST in the past.I was searching through my old papers the other day and I found a letter from Engineers Australia (then IEAust) denying me entry to professional membership of the organization.I was a government employee at the time so it had huge knock on ramifications down the road for me in the years after.At the time I had done an Telecommunications Degree at Macquarie (called a Bachelor of Technology in Telecommunications). After than I did the Bachelor of Technology (Honours) in Information and Communication Systems. Later Macquarie bought in a Bachelor of Engineering but these degrees predated those. And in fact before the BTech there was a BSc/BA sequence and honours in Electronics one could do.Anyway I went on to do a PhD in the Department of Electronics (by then the undergrads were doing the BEng but it was essentially exactly the same except for the name change and accreditation was sought).At the time I was on leave and I placed my application into Engineers Australia and the response I got back was that I should "negotiate" with the university to convert my BTech/BTech(Hons) to a BEng as only an accredited degree was acceptable.Years later I found they would accredit anyone and had been doing since the beginning of time on an individual basis - that is they would look at your coursework and compare it to what they accredit to see if it was substantially equivalent. In any case the public service then denied my transfer to the Sydney site because I was not a MIEAust. I just thought... really... a PhD in Engineering with what I already had (this was the days of David Skellern making a fortune on wireless at Macquarie if anyone remembers) was not good enough for the Public service types or the IEAust for a pissy Professional Officers job (I was a Technical officer previously but went back to school to upgrade - I went to Macquarie for the wireless stuff (Mistake in hindsight - I never thought the beaureacrats would be so petty)Anyway I left Australia and have never had anything questioned - worked for some of the worlds best electronics companies doing R&D and releasing product.But... you know I look back and am kind of pissed. My marriage ended due in part to having to drag her around the world, and I wonder if they had been reasonable none of this would have happened - all they had to say was - we will do an individual investigation based on your course content.I mean isn't that what they are doing with all these indian Bachelor of Technology, Science and Engineering degrees in fields of engineering? I mean they are just letting them in now.But I think the worst thing was - there was nobody and the IEAust I think who knew much about electronics - its almost as if they didn't like the field and couldn't be bothered. Even today they have a IT&T society where they try to put electronics and computer grads into but its a waste of space.So I was thinking how many BSc (Hons) /MSc's / BTech(Hons) and others were denied entry by the IEAust for no good reason other than they did not do their preferred programme? I think all of these were transitioned to BEng degrees in the end with little to minimal changes.I just feel these guys screwed over a lot of people - particularly in areas where there was that snob factor. It's pretty hard to take if you had a postgraduate degree in electronics and some dickhead who graduated in 1980 with a 3 year diploma of electronics gets full admission just because they decided to change the rules. Then they don't tell everyone doing the degrees they can get in if they get assessed. And now - they just take anyone.So my question is - I have a lawyer in mind - I am wondering how many have been affected by the way they operate, particularly in this field where their membership and staff in the area must be close to zero. And if you have would you consider a class action against them? Our position is they were never in a position to assess these graduates back then and regardless should have offered to assess them individually since someone with a postgrad electronics degree has probably done most and more of a BEng at the time.What do you all think? I am sure there must be a bunch of pre BEng electronics grads out there who had done substantially equivalent degrees?TP

author: georges80
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 27, 2020, 03:46:26 pm
content: Move on. You're talking decades ago.I moved from Oz to the USA for EE work and have never looked back.cheerrs,george.

author: intmpe
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 27, 2020, 08:58:10 pm
content: I don't disagree.. as the saying goes... long ago and far awayBut it still does have relevance. If you return to Australia to semi-retire say you are still faced with the individual assessment which is quite a dangerous process if it appears you might have the wrong person looking at your case. With so few jobs a research engineer or similar in one of the government entities may still prefer to see that.I do not believe Engineers Australia should, and ever should have been accrediting electronic or computer engineers. I never spoke to anyone who had the faintest idea of the range of degrees available. That range of degrees just did not appear in the other fields of engineering. Even now the IT&T society looks completely useless. The membership must be so low you can count them on your fingers.As far as the US goes - yes it was always the place to goHowever I do not think that anymore, all I see are an increased and increasing failure rate of old electronics firms. In 10 years there will be little if anything left.To compound it further US education is completely dreadful. I have had the unfortunate experience of doing some classes and these people are the worst I have ever seen. They don't even know their own material. In addition to work with a US Bachelor of Science graduate is like pulling teeth nowadays. I know the old crew from the 70's and these guys were decent. Now I would not rate a US Bachelor of Science degree higher than an Australian Associates degree. A US Associates degree can have as little as 4 engineering classes in total. And its all because high school sucks so bad nobody knows anything going in so they spend the first two years doing high school again. Anybody that can actually function as an engineer that I have worked with in the last 10 years in the US HAS TO HAVE a Masters degree - it is roughly equal to an Australian Honours year. And to make it worse it really doesn't even matter how prestigious the school is - I've seen the same thing from all over. So the US is a dead duck - or will be soon. It is almost impossible now to actually work on real R&D which pretty much screws the old path that I took and did so well in for years. Now it had degenerated into a political minefield as revenues have dried up and US firms are almost exclusively looking at China - and at that they fail over and over again. It's like a dilbert cartoon.So the US is no longer the place to be. It's a minefield now full of assholes ready to eat your lunch.But I digress - it still brings back what Engineers Australia will do nowadays. I am hoping they are reasonable. They used to be an absolute bunch of cunts that in my view damaged the local career prospects during most of the 90's and early 2000's of a lot of good engineers - albeit those who did not do their programs. They forget that Civil Engineering used to be considered the easy degree for the plebs. Perhaps that was the chip on their shoulder that shut everyone out. It matters little.Perhaps some foreign engineers that have moved to Australia could give their experience in getting accredited with Engineers Australia - that would give me/us a better idea of what we are dealing with now.I'm old, crusty and cranky - and just want to more or less semi retire at this point - probably working for myself (need RPEng) or a research division (might need RPEng). I have made my money but it will shit me if I have to deal with any bullshit even resembling what Engineers Australia did in the past. It might be time for a legal case if that occurs. I cannot believe they can claim to represent this field of engineering at their current membership levels and makeup.TP

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 27, 2020, 11:22:14 pm
content: Quote from: intmpe on April 27, 2020, 08:58:10 pmChallenge, find an advertised job thatrequiresany sort of professional registration in the electronics field. Electrical, Civil, Mechanical, all easy enough, but electronics? Never ever ever seen it required.

author: intmpe
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2020, 12:05:15 am
content: Here... took me 2 minuteshttps://www.apsjobs.gov.au/s/job-details?Id=a055m000000J1jcAAC&returl=job-searchWe are generally talking public service jobs (my original post) or working for yourself (dealing with the public directly requires it by law). If you work for a private company there are legal exemptions so I would agree with you in those jobs. What we are talking about is semi - retirement where working for yourself is a real possibility or some cushy public service job.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2020, 07:03:41 am
content: Quote from: intmpe on April 28, 2020, 12:05:15 amAs that looks like a very fragile link here is the pertinent section quoted:QuoteFor one thats a management role, they are casting the net broadly. But check out all those weasel words in there!may requireable to meet the requirementsDefinitely not a mandatory requirement to hold registration. Also that is exactly the sort of organisation that if they did require it, they would pay for it and strong arm the body to sign off (using their already existing cohort of registered engineers).

author: chickenHeadKnob
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 29, 2020, 12:57:00 am
content: Class action lawsuits are general enrichment devices for the lawyers controlling them. Sometimes (often) vast enrichment. For the actual aggrieved individuals not so much.

author: intmpe
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 29, 2020, 05:01:39 am
content: I used to work for these guys .. if they say may require... they mean do require unless you are someone they know. In this case its even more important because you are claiming equivalency and you don't want any pimply faced youth too young to know what a Bachelor of Arts in Electronics looked like messing with your head.

author: intmpe
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 29, 2020, 05:08:09 am
content: Agreed, but I am well off and the point is I would only do it ifa). it helped a lot of peopleb). it ruled against Engineers Australia ever fucking with people againc). it allowed another method of assessment i.e. University school to accredit/test or something like that.I would not be opposed to letting the Australian arm of British IET be the accrediting body. They have well defined pathways for accredited and non accredited degrees and lost their snob factor about it many decades ago.I find it interesting that a state like Queensland introduced their own engineering register rather than relying on Engineers Australia. I must not be the only one that dislikes them.

author: intmpe
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 29, 2020, 05:47:44 am
content: Here is another one.. you don't have to look very far. Not much different to 20 years ago really. There is still that snob factor in play and it will never go away.https://au.jooble.org/desc/-5272416689920743974?ckey=electronics+engineer&rgn=-1&pos=29&elckey=-3065102530335047070&p=2&sid=8671421829487089785&age=7741&relb=100&brelb=100&bscr=3890%2C5603&scr=3890%2C5603&iid=-5349643005888793012Notice they said Institute of Engineers, Australia - hasn't been called that for years so whoever wrote that is still living 90's snob land. I wonder what they would think of the Melbourne model - bachelor of commerce followed by master of engineering. These people are still out there.For those old enough to remember Engineers Australia never used to accredit electronics at all. I suspect this is how all this came about - with all the different degrees. It used to be the Institute of Radio and Electronics Engineers that did it. But the membership fell so low it became non-viable. However the Institute of Radio and Electronics engineers didn't generally care which degree BA/BSc/BE/BTech you did if I recall correctly as long as it was in electronics or closely related. I remember a colleague doing a Bachelor of Applied Science in Physics (Electronics). I wonder what happened to him. Bet he would have had the same problem. AWA research labs used to hire a bunch of these guys to do wireless design. (Bet the young ones are scratching their heads wondering what AWA research labs was or even Telecom Research Labs (TRL). How backward Australia went... right down the technical toilet.

author: Electro Detective
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 29, 2020, 06:50:35 am
content: If you're comfortable financially, and know a decent legal advisor,it may be worth blowing a few grand to send letters of intention to these pricks to ruffle their feathers,and cry some 'racism' on top as many do, to get the show on the roadYou may get lucky and get what you asked foror worth it just to get a foot in their door and kick over some tablesand yeah, no shortage of kangaroo assed selective 'mates or cash only' snobbos back in the dayGood luck mate

author: intmpe
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 29, 2020, 07:57:56 am
content: Yes, I just thought I would come in and see how many if any are in the same boat first.One interesting fact that I do not know is true or not but was told by a former academic and member of the Institute of Radio and Electronic Engineers.That was - when the Institute of Radio and Electronic Engineers decided to fold and hand over accreditation the Engineers Australia, there was an undertaking that Engineers Australia would honour the qualifications and awards that the Institution of Radio and Electronic Engineers approved. What happened apparently was not only did they not honour it they kicked out all the non Bachelor of Engineering members. How true this is I don't know - I would be interested in finding out if this was in an agreement when the deal went down. The exact words used at the time were the members were "screwed over".

author: Electro Detective
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 29, 2020, 11:23:54 am
content: Fingers crossed some insiders rock up here eventually,that didn't like how things went down, and perhaps even got shafted themselves,to spill some serious beans on the matterPatience