Disappointed in Mantis Elite - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: purfield
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2022, 05:41:15 am
content: Hi all,Based largely on Dave's enthusiastic video on the Mantis Elite, I set up an eBay alert for any that pop up hoping to snag a deal. Eventually I got one for $800 USD with a 10X objective, which I figured was a pretty good deal. It was missing a few plastic bits and the table clamp/mount, but I eventually procured the missing parts and got it all put together. I also bought a 4X objective.Now that I have it all together and I've had a chance to use it, I'm kind of unimpressed. For comparison, my daily driver has been a Nikon SMZ1000 with a 1X Apo objective and a Chinese ring light. The LED lights on the Mantis are probably only about 5-10% as bright, but its quite possible they are shot (some are dead) and need replacement. The dim lights allow a lot of ambient reflections on the view screen to distract me. I also noticed a lot of pincushion distortion in the image as well as some ghosting. My eyes felt MORE fatigued on the Mantis compared to my Nikon - it felt like I was looking at things cross-eyed (yes I adjusted the eye spacing control).I was looking forward to the longer working distance on the Mantis, but I didn't anticipate the additional complications of the giant size of the microscope head kind of getting in the way of my work space.It's possible that the particular Mantis I bought, which was in somewhat rough shape, needs some adjustments before it's in proper working condition. So I want to withhold final judgement until I have it working in tip top shape, but my gut tells me I'm still going to be underwhelmed.Has anyone else tried a Mantis, compared it to a traditional stereomicroscope, and preferred the traditional microscope over the Mantis?

author: jfiresto
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2022, 11:18:46 am
content: I also wonder if your Mantis Elite has worn itself or been knocked out of alignment. In any case, you will be hard pressed to match the brightness, sharpness and flatness of a Nikon SMZ1000 with its Plan Apo, Common Main Objective.Is the distortion as bad as the following image I captured from aMantis-1 teardown?

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2022, 09:21:40 pm
content: $800 is good in the current market. From what I've seen 10x objective is bit high, most people are using 4X-6X for soldering work. Although they do sell up to 20X lens so you'd think the optical quality would be good enough for 10 at least.Does it look just as bad with 4X as 10X?The Nikon is what a $5,000 microscope?Is there any way you can take example photos?

author: jc101
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 28, 2022, 04:32:02 pm
content: I have a 4x and 8x lens on my Mantis Elite, which is about 15 months old. For me everything is pin sharp. It's a delight to use even for long periods.The x4 is used the most of the time, flipping to the x8 when close inspection is needed.I can try and get some pics tomorrow.

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2022, 01:11:21 am
content: Any updates?I have a damaged Mantis, so my opinion may not be useful but:- I can see even more how incredibly fragile these things are. Mirrors are mounted with tape onto thin plastic.- Field of view is much worse than a typical amscope stereo microscope, both feel like the same "distance" but FOV on the stereo microscope is ~40% larger.- I can barely move my head before it loses image, maybe a few cm.In thisthreadfrozenfrogz says:"The TS4 has a smaller viewing image and it is a lot less potent in terms of light efficacy."So maybe the older models are worse in terms of FOV?

author: jc101
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2022, 07:28:01 am
content: Taking pics through a Mantis is not easy!Anyway, here is a x4 and a x8 pic, naturally it looks much better in stereo with a pair of eyes. The image is crystal clear, even out at the edges. I find the x8 about as high I'd want to go. When I bought it they turned up with a demo unit and all the lenses so I had a chance to physically see each lens of the stuff I typically tinker with. I settled for x4 and x8, and the x4 is in use the majority of the time.I also have it positioned where it's comfortable for me, and use a scissor lift thing from Amazon (£30) to move what I'm working on around and into focus. As to focus the Mantis you physically move it up and down, which because of the standard arm also moves it slightly back and forward.Edited to add that the smallest part on there is a 0603.

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 08, 2022, 09:52:00 pm
content: Good photos. Agree image quality is clear.Now that you point out the focusing that could be annoying too. Their fixed stands have the stadard knob adjust, it would be expensive but you could combine the knob adjust with an arm as well.edit:Stated working distance of Mantis EliteCode:Objective Lens, Working Distance, Field of View2x160mm57.0mm4x96mm34.0mm6x68mm23mm6x SLWD 112mm20.0mm8x59mm17.0mm10x54mm13.5mmOlder MantisCode:Lens, Working Distance, Field of View, Depth of Field2X 171 mm 56 mm 25 mm4X 86 mm 28 mm 11 mm6X 55 mm 20 mm 5 mm6X SLWD 112 mm 20 mm 5 mm8X 41 mm 15 mm 3 mm10X 41 mm 12 mm 2.5 mmElite better, in some cases, might depend on how the lens is made.Optical Path Alignment:Quotehttps://cdme.osu.edu/sites/default/files/uploads/vision_engineering_mantis_x4_-_manual.pdf

author: purfield
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2022, 07:21:32 pm
content: Slight update on my Mantis Elite experience:I was really confused about why I felt so crosseyed/dizzy when using the Mantis, and it turns out at least part of the problem is the asymmetry in my face that results in one eye being a couple mm lower than the other. If I tilt my head a bit to correct for it, I get less dizzy/crosseyed and less strain. It could also potentially be an alignment issue with the Mantis, but will have to investigate further. I suppose it's not a problem with a traditional stereomicroscope since I'm forced to align my eyes with the eyepieces.I doubled down and bought another one on eBay for $450 with two lenses. Unknown condition. I suffer from gear acquisition syndrome and have a very understanding wife. :-)

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2022, 01:06:38 am
content: So I finally mounted the Mantis (non-elite), I used a vertical linear rail instead of the stock arm with springs.There is a lot of distortion when your head is too far forward or too far back. Forehead right up against the eye cover is too far forward, ideal viewing distance is maybe a few cm back from that. But, this also gives you some additional 3D effect as well.Here is a rough idea of FOV compared to an Amscope stereo zoom (10x eyepiece, 0.5x barlow):Its just really lacking in FOV, for me I'm not sure if I could work under this all day long, as its almost like tunnel vision. But, image is nice and crisp. Certain work would definitely benefit from it, need to use it a bit more first.And continuing a thought from another thread:There IS a clone of the Mantis! Its the Scienscope Vizor-A, actually a clone of the old style mantis and not the Elite. They even copied the old style arm... odd. I assume its a copy and not a rebrand?Cost is about $1800 with 4x, 6x, and 8x objectives.https://www.jensentools.com/scienscope-vizor-a-vizor-vision-system-articulating-arm-4x-6x-8x-lenses-int-adj-led-light/p/489-455

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 17, 2022, 11:40:41 pm
content: The Amscope CMO (Nikon SMZ800/1000/1500 clone) seems to have the same or slightly larger FOV as the trinocular Amscope.I measured some numbers using a ruler, although with the zoom knob I am trusting the markings are accurate, I didn't verify that.They specify as:Code:Specified FOV Measured FOV- Amscope Trinocular: 32.5mm (7X-45X) or 4.4mm-28.6mm (7-45X?) (8X measured at ~27mm, 3.5X 62mm)- Amscope CMO: 26mm @ 8X; 2mm @ 80X (8X measured at 28.5mm)- Mantis old: 28mm @ 4x, 20mm @ 6x, 15mm @ 8x (4X measured at 29mm, 6X measured at 21mm)- Mantis elite: 34mm @ 4x, 23mm @ 6x, 17mm @ 8xSo the Elite improves things a bit. But its still not near the Amscope, you are seeing an extra 60% of the board width at 8X magnification.Not sure whats up with the 32.5mm quoted from Amscope being high, or the 26mm on the CMO being low when Nikon quotes 27.5mm. Seems its a bit of a rough number. I think the Mantis is on spec if you subtract the distorted areas.Amscope CMO optical clarity is higher than the SM series, but, this does not matter at all for electronics work. You would only notice on very high zoom (50X+).Wonder if there is a way to get the 3D rotary viewer working on a normal microscope:https://amscope.com/products/dm745-hdm11-3dr?variant=41108539703471It looks like its just two flat square mirrors.

author: jfiresto
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2022, 07:01:58 am
content: Quote from: thm_w on August 17, 2022, 11:40:41 pmIf these are all at 8X total magnification, multiplying by 0.8 suggests microscopes with 10X/26mm, 10X/21mm and 10X/22mm oculars, respectively. The oculars usually set/limit the FOV.I expect the Amscope CMO microscope would have a usefully brighter and flatter image (no keystone distortion).

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2022, 09:54:28 pm
content: Quote from: jfiresto on August 18, 2022, 07:01:58 amOh good point, didn't even know you could have different FOV eyepieces at the same magnification.The oculars installed are: CMO 10X/22mm, Trinocular 10X/20mm, both are cross compatible 30mm diameter mounts.For electronics I guess there is not much downside to a wider ocular?The highest commonly available I found was 10X/24mm:https://www.ebay.com/itm/265357691595Although either of the Amscope are very usable FOV already, the issue is the Mantis where you can't replace the eyepiece. Yes the CMO is brighter/flatter, but for general use its not noticeable.

author: jfiresto
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2022, 06:15:59 am
content: Quote from: thm_w on August 18, 2022, 09:54:28 pmI would say not, other than the greater cost, and the ocular perhaps reminding you of the limits of the microscope near the edges of the FOV. The widest 30mm oculars I know of (*) are 10X/26.5mm which may show some vignetting in a CMO microscope should you insert an unlucky or too many accessories into the infinity optical paths.(*) I had a pair of Zeiss 10X/26.5 oculars for a few days that, alas, were chipped around the edges, making them roughly 10X/24.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2022, 08:59:45 am
content: Quote from: purfield on June 23, 2022, 05:41:15 amThe LEDs on the Mantis Compact I bought new died after a couple of years, so quite likely yours are below par. Not hard to replace.

author: Black Phoenix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2022, 08:08:25 am
content: Quote from: purfield on June 23, 2022, 05:41:15 amSorry stealing the thread but how it is the Nikon in your opinion?In China I can get in a second hand app, based in companies who gone bankrupt or closed, some stereoscopes, mainly Nikon, Zeiss and Leica. But as an amateur photographer myself my love is in Nikon. I saw that exact same model being sold and I would like to know your opinions about it.

author: jfiresto
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2022, 02:06:37 pm
content: Here aresome recommendationsfrom a microscope service company. Search forNikon, twice, to see the models they would buy and avoid.

author: Black Phoenix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2022, 04:41:24 pm
content: Quote from: jfiresto on August 27, 2022, 02:06:37 pmWill keep this link in my short list. Thank you.

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2022, 12:30:23 am
content: I made some replacement LED lamps for the old style mantis. The brightness and high CRI are worth the price.LEDs are $4 each:https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32975568763.html(SST20)Lenses are $1:https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005001973468244.htmlUsed the 30deg bead lens which seems to work, didn't realize until after that the original halogen lamps were only 10 degrees.For the Elite, you might be able to use the existing lenses and make a aluminum ring style PCB, using the Cree SMD LEDs that SDG likes. Or maybe good through hole options exist.Quote from: Black Phoenix on August 27, 2022, 08:08:25 amSMZ1000 is a $2000-3000 microscope used. Its usually not something you get unless you have a specific need for it.If you have that budget or are OK with regular stereo microscope (greenough) then used Nikon is great. Just know what to look for in a used unit: what zoom and eyepiece you want, make sure it has not been dropped, scratched, or is dirty inside.

author: Bzzz
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 02, 2023, 01:18:06 am
content: Quote from: purfield on June 23, 2022, 05:41:15 am...tried a Mantis (the old one, though) at the new work place and felt dizzy within a minute.The other electronics lab, however, features an old Lynx with LED upgrade - and that one isreallynice.Before spending a fortune on a major service (new Compact units start below 2k€?) - how would I check for alignment issues on the Mantis? Total newbie to stereo microscopes.

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 02, 2023, 02:10:05 am
content: Quote from: Bzzz on March 02, 2023, 01:18:06 amYou did adjust the knob on the right side of the Mantis, yes? Read the link and quote above about alignment.Maybe you can post some photos of what you see through the Lynx, what kind of field of view it has compared to the mantis, etc.

author: Bzzz
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 02, 2023, 02:43:18 am
content: I did turn the Eye Spacing knob, indeed. While it does move the optical paths relative to each other, it always feels cross-eyed. Coworkers report the same.Posting comparison shots is actually a great idea - information on both is a bit scarce on the interwebs. Will do that later today

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 02, 2023, 10:11:45 pm
content: Quote from: Bzzz on March 02, 2023, 02:43:18 amI don't know if the Elite has the same philips screw adjustment on the back of the unit, I would assume it does?This is the post above:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/disappointed-in-mantis-elite/msg4288336/#msg4288336There is also this thread with some photos about alignment, if you open the thing up:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-390-mantis-elite-microscope-review/75/

author: Bzzz
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2023, 11:23:48 am
content: Well, took me a while...Checking the alignment on the Mantis revealed a slight mismatch that I was able to correct via the black Philips screw in the back. The adjustment range however maxes out at the correct value, I'd assume that shouldn't be the case. It's a little easier on the eyes now but I still got dizzy from adjusting and then taking pictures, so no major progress here.Due to size limit - those three pictures are from the Mantis at 4x and 10x magnification. The two similar ones are just a tap onto the unit apart. It's surprisingly easy to take photos here compared to the Lynx; the area in which an image appears is very very small, but if there's an image, it's clear, bright and easy to capture. Inside that range the image tilts significantly, so my guess is that this rotation on the slightest movement, although very welcome to inspect e.g. around component pins, together with the eye distance setting that never seems right, causes nausea.

author: Bzzz
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2023, 11:57:42 am
content: To contrast this, here's three photos from the same PCB, but taken from the old Lynx. The images always have this blue-purple-pink-white haze to it but is seen from a much wider angle. My phone's just a bit too large to fit properly and then focus onto the very bright imageWhen viewed with the naked eye, image quality of both is comparable; the Mantis has halogen lighting and the Lynx runs on LEDs with an aftermarket power supply. I prefer the Mantis lighting since I think the LEDs probably have a bad CRI, need to bring my handheld spectroscope to verify this claim. On the other hand, the light bulb runs pretty hot and the fan is annoying, so there's that.The Lynx has stepless 7x to 40x magnification. The photo with the microscope image filling the entire width was taken at 10x, the others at 7x. There's however a bottom lens marked "0.3 / 0.5 / 0.7x" that seems fixed and I don't know the actual setting. The Lynx provides a similar field of view to the 10x Mantis image (full chip plus space for a couple more pins on both sides) at the 17x setting, hinting at 0.7x. Depth of field is much more forgiving and the rate of image tilt when moving is much lower, so I can sit there and inspect entire PCBs without issues.

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 08, 2023, 12:16:18 am
content: Quote from: Bzzz on March 07, 2023, 11:23:48 amCould be something knocked or come loose inside, limiting the adjustment range. When you see inside these things, its not very rigidly secured, so its not surprising.So you are saying there is no dizzyness at all when using the Lynx? Or its still there but less so.I can't stand using the Mantis for more than a few minutes, just a quick inspection tilting the PCB around is all I use it for. Any work done under the proper stereo microscope, which is comfortable to use if ergonomics are setup correctly.Quote from: Bzzz on March 07, 2023, 11:57:42 amYeah if its older LEDs the CRI will be crap compared to halogens. I used proper 95+ CRI LEDs.Lynx also looks very spot lit in the center, not really that even lighting. Might be worth replacing them at a later date, or using an external light.

author: Bzzz
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 08, 2023, 08:38:51 am
content: Quote from: thm_w on March 08, 2023, 12:16:18 amNah, the Lynx is fine for hours, including manual inspection of boards with lots of tilting in and out of focus. I think the Mantis has some optical axis misalignment, so that it doesn't really match the stereoscopic view paths, especially when going out of focus. It's like those 3D side-by-side crossview images when one is rotated by a degree or two, but increasingly so with head movements out of the perfect viewing position. Totally messes me upQuote from: thm_w on March 08, 2023, 12:16:18 amI second that spot lighting observation, although it's not visible with the naked eye. Everything is well illuminated and certainly way too bright to view directly without that glare shield. But it's certainly possible the LEDs are ageing and some might drop out sooner or later.Attached is a spectrum of the Lynx LED ring vs. the fluorescent tube above that table with very obvious banding. Spectrum usually reads like 10nm too high. Clearly there's a gap between blue and green which explains the dull PCB color, plus pure yellow is absent as well. Not an issue for the usual inspection work, although I again side with you in that I'd change this to high-CRI LEDs if it was my personal unit at home.

author: kermitfrog
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2023, 05:24:26 am
content: You're not the first one I've heard say they are unhappy with their Mantis.

author: ddavidebor
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 04, 2023, 09:05:14 pm
content: I tried the Mantis (in fact, I tried 6 of their microscopes) and was not impressed.The optical quality was pretty poor. Sure, the visor has great ergonomics, but I don't use the microscope 6 hours a day every day, so I don't care too much. Anything I tried from them that had a camera was terrible - 10 years behind everyone else.it was particularly bad for soldering due to the unimpressive depth of field, working distance, and the lack of zoom!at 2x it has 160mm working distance, but 2x is useless. Their 6x SLWD lens is good, with a working distance of 112mm.I ended up buying a Leica S9D instead. Here is why:- The optics quality is great. It's full Apochromatic optics microscope, far superior to the Mantis.- The depth of field AND field of view is amazing due to a clever thing they call FusionOptics- 9 to 1 zoom. Nine ! most microscopes do 6 to 1 at best.- By default, it comes with the same working distance as the mantis on the 6x SLWD lens. But unlike the mantis, you have 6.1 x – 55 x magnification!- in my case, I added a 0.5x lens, I have 250mm of working distance ! 250mm!!!!!- Camera mount for external camera (provided you buy a slightly overpriced camera adapter), compatible with any of the awesome chinese cameras you can find on aliexpress- Compatible with all standard microscope lights, polarizers, etc etc.And the depth of field and field of view is so good I can solder at 15x or 20x magnification like a breeze. Try doing that on an Amscope...

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 04, 2023, 09:33:09 pm
content: Quote from: ddavidebor on May 04, 2023, 09:05:14 pmAgree. And even if you had to use it 6 hours a day, as I said above, I'd rather use something else. Many people are working under biological stereo microscopes for hours a day, so its not like this problem is not cared about in other fields.Leica looks like a great unit with decent ergonomics. 9:1 zoom is very good.Quote from: ddavidebor on May 04, 2023, 09:05:14 pmYes and for that it costs $3k+, to compare to an Amscope ($300-600 with boom stand), its not surprising its way better.Can you measure the FOV at 8x to compare with what I've posted above?The datasheet states 37.6mm at 6x, which is not far off from the Amscope (36mm or so). You should be able to get the same FOV on the Amscope by replacing the stock eyepieces with 24mm ones.

author: toybuilder
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2024, 05:19:16 am
content: If you think it's cross-eyed, it probably is. I've found that I originally had my eye-spacing dialed wrong and was looking at the board cross-eyed. When I closed each eye and looked carefully at the vertical edges of larger inductors, I was able to confirm that the left and right eyes were seeing the wrong image.I have a "salvaged" one that I'm working on -- the original Mantis design -- the image quality on my beat up unit is definitely not as sharp as my Amscope (bought new), but the ease of viewing is great.I don't think the image quality issue on mine is simply because it's a "beat up" unit, though. I remember seeing a Mantis at a CM more than a decade ago (same model) and thinking at the time that the image quality was not quite as good as my stereomicroscope and that it felt a little off.