Is it fair to say ICs are almost always cheaper than discrete? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / projects

author: ivan747
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2025, 03:37:49 pm
content: Is it fair to say ICs are almost always cheaper than a discrete solution these days? The only exception I can think of is very high volume manufacturing with little performance requirements.Same goes for new ICs vs old ICs. I was picking an op-amp the other day and pretty much went through this realization:https://hackaday.com/2025/04/01/why-the-lm741-sucks/It's not even that cheap. For microcontrollers the difference is even more dramatic.New parts seem to have more value for money, unless the old parts are redesigned for a new cheap process. But then they become new parts.

author: Kleinstein
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2025, 03:48:27 pm
content: There are still old parts that are cheap. The LM358 or TL082 are such examples. The main point is having large volume and competition.Some versions of the 741 are still relatively cheap - it can still get expensive if one really needs the metal can or to a lesser degree DIP. New type are rarely available in DIP at all.In a few cases (if one needs the offset trim) the 741 may still have its uses. It is not all that bad - many modern types have a limited input differential voltage, and very few have the offset trim pins.There are still a few cases where discrete can be cheaper, but it often gets larger PCB area and more design time. Standard BJTs like BC847 got quite cheap, also in duals.

author: AnalogTodd
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2025, 04:44:36 pm
content: I would say that integrated designs are not always cheaper, but almost always have significant advantages that lower the overall cost you see in making them. Some factors are:Board space. An integrated design puts all devices into a single package, usually on a single piece of silicon. Compare how much board space is taken up with twenty or more individual transistors, associated resistors and capacitors to roll your own op amp or other integrated device.Design time. Do you know how to do individual transistor level design well enough to get performance close to what you get from an integrated product? There's a lot that you get added for performance in an integrated design.Performance. Continuing on from the previous point, there are a lot of bonuses to having everything on one piece of silicon. Transistors match incredibly well compared to any two discrete devices you might get. Resistors match their values and temperature coefficients really well. It allows performance to be taken to the next level, compared to trying to have to match devices yourself.Cost. This is one where there can be back and forth. In enough quantities for small circuits, you may get discrete devices being cheaper. I will say, however, that my years in the semiconductor industry has taught me that the silicon is only one piece of the cost equation in building a device. You must look at packaging and test on top of this. One integrated device may cost ten times what discrete devices do for silicon, but you only have one package and test insertion needed for it. Ten discrete devices require ten times the packages and ten times the test insertions.Old parts will hit a plateau in their cost and not get much cheaper. Packaging and test are hard to squeeze money out of. The fab process for the parts is well depreciated, it can be 40 to 50 years old. The problem of course is that you no longer have the old equipment and wafer sizes to make those parts, so you have to get new masks and move to new processing equipment. This is nice in terms of higher yields out of fab, but it's only a tiny incremental difference in total cost.