IN-APP ONLY car parking insanity (UK) - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: MrMobodies
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 13, 2023, 10:29:13 pm
content: I have not yet come across a car park with this nonsense but I have seen many with cash or card that were pretty straight foward with some requesting the numberplate I think for the ANPR.https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11951289/Innocent-drivers-left-unfair-fines-confusing-parking-apps.htmlQuoteSo according to Caroline Hamilton, if a driver is finding it difficult and makes a mistake resulting in a fine but DID pay and had every intention paying, well that's alright they were just "BUSY MOTORISTS" and it's their fault even if they could prove that the money did go through to the company.That to me sounds insane. Even for busy motorists they possibly know most are going to be busy trying to get to work on time with the way the roads can be in the cities.To pay your parking ticket, you should not wholey depend on, a "smartphone", the OS being up to date, mobile signal, finding an "app", putting in your ID, registration, banking details as the only primary means for paying for itExpecting a "busy" motorist to navigate through "apps" to correctly pay sounds unreasonable to me obviously not geared up for them or am I missing the point... are they just trying to make revenue through making it difficult that the driver ends up make mistakes. If they turn up at a car parking and see surprise, "IN-APP" only parking, well they are a car park, why should they need to navigate through a bunch of "apps" and do a whole load of things and hope they get it right or that it works. I thought were QR codes for this sort thing to assist.Errors like that in that amount should not be easy to make. With the previous system many years ago that I remember with no automatic number plate reader, select option or time. a ticket comes out, stick to window and that's it.https://www.express.co.uk/life-style/cars/1619328/elderly-drivers-parking-apps-driving-fine-parking-fine-exclusiveQuote*Not so inconvenient.**A blessing with a machine that accepts other modes of payments or a blessing without it.The word "TECHNOLOGY" slapped over it as the only and primary means to use/pay for it is not a good excuse.With "technology" shouldn't be many ways to pay for stuff. Credit card/cash/software/app (phones).QuoteI think that is very stupid. This isn't about keeping up with "the times" this is about being able to pay from a system before that accepted cash and card to now just ONE mode of payment. At least two ways to pay would be convenient without requiring a whole load of things.I wonder why did the Express newspaper accept words from someone who refuses to treat others with respect as a politician and caused outrage and dismissed by his own party in 2012:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brian_ColemanQuoteHow can it be an "allegation" when it was ruled.Joke:They forgot to do one thing: call "app-only" carparksSmart Carparksnew modern innovative mind blowing ways to "modernise" car parks where they don't use more than one payment method anymore.We'll just rip out the machines and use your mobiles phones as the payment machines all dependent on your owning a mobile phone, mobile contract, maintaining it, making sure it is up to date, choosing the right app (despite arriving at the car park), fill in form ID/Registration/bank details and a presence of a mobile phone signal. If not it will be all your fault and we'll fine you regardless if you already paid the correct fee.What do you think?

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 13, 2023, 11:23:28 pm
content: Applied to council owned on street parking too....https://www.paystay.com.aulets have the customer provide:hardwareadministrationpowerand the council provides the physical land/roads... all we need is a server and some minimal "support" $$$$$$ profit!

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 14, 2023, 12:57:53 am
content: Car parks in Western Australia normally offer the alternatives of cash, or credit/debit card.When you enter a multi-storey car park, there is a numberplate reader which stores your registration number & the time of entry.Upon leaving it reads your rego again, calculates the payment required, which you can normally pay by cash or with your card.On-street parking normally has one large meter for multiple spaces, where you can select time in discrete increments, pay with cash or card, put the ticket on your dashboard & go about your business.No doubt some halfwits, who wouldn't know technology if it leapt out of their smartphones & bit them savagely on the backside will change all that so we, too, have to have an "App".Shops are further down the road towards that ultimate destination but at the moment, it is still fun to have your card in hand atthe checkout, touch the reader, grab your receipt & be on your way, whilst all the "trendies" are still fiddling with their phones to "get the App up".I can forget my phone & still buy stuff, & am even more versatile if I have some real cash in my wallet.

author: MrMobodies
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 14, 2023, 05:02:40 am
content: QuoteRUBBISH!https://www.bournemouthecho.co.uk/news/23119374.pensioner-issues-advice-wrongly-receiving-parking-fine/QuoteSo according to Caroline Hamilton, this pensioner who has paid her parking ticket multiple times must have been a busy motorist not paying attention putting in her number plate so it is all her fault and as it is her fault will be no grounds for appeal.Lets take a look at the reviews about the Traffic Penalty Tribunal:https://www.trafficpenaltytribunal.gov.ukQuotehttps://www.google.com/search?q=Traffic+Penalty+Tribunal+%28TPT%29QuoteQuite a few reporting that the organization is biased.Joke: Perhaps the councils pay her wages.Not looking good on Whatdotheyknow/Freedom of information acthttps://www.whatdotheyknow.com/body/traffic_penalty_tribunalI see there are complaints of drivers getting trapped at bus only turning with confusing signage where they get fined.I remembered 30 years ago at multi story car park. You get your ticket and on the way out you put your ticked back in and if there was difference to pay if you exceeded the time you pay it before the barrier would let you out or something like that. At least you didn't get fined.Now they seem to be trapping people into things.On the other hand they seem be helping 2/3 of claims:https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/news/article-11185201/Why-DOES-pay-fight-unfair-parking-fines-right-top.htmlQuoteI see a pattern emerging with theexcuses below:Price rises in shopping... Oh it's Brexit.Can't see GP face to face way after pandemic... COVID.Oil prices still high... Russia and Ukraine.Our car parks only use "In-app" payment as the only way to pay... oh it's technology.Unreliable apps don't work or wrong one chosen... oh it's technology.No signal to pay for parking... oh it's technology.Can't pay for car parking despite having card and cash... oh it's technology.Pensioners find it impractical or don't know how to use phone to pay for parking... oh it's technology.Smart motorways failure... oh it's technology.I have read that when they can't pin the blame on anyone they blame technology and make it sound all mysterious like no one was paying attention.I am beginning to hate that word by how it is being used.

author: DimitriP
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 14, 2023, 05:34:34 am
content: QuoteIt's all downhill from there ...

author: Infraviolet
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 15, 2023, 04:56:59 pm
content: If I had a car I think I'd keep a very specific toolset in the boot, namely those tools needed to quickly take off the registration plates. I'd remove them upon leaving the actual public roads before before entering the private land where these creepy schemes are in use. They'd go back to the simple reliable method of taking cash at a machine pretty quickly if enough people used this sort of logic.

author: Circlotron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 18, 2023, 10:59:29 pm
content: If someone received a fine as a result of keying in the the wrong car registration number that means the ticketing system must have known the right number to make the comparison. So why didn’t it either immediately report the error to the user, or better still, not require the user to enter those details?

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 19, 2023, 02:16:44 am
content: Quote from: Infraviolet on April 15, 2023, 04:56:59 pmYou will find that, being publically accessible places, that is not in fact an option.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 19, 2023, 02:57:53 am
content: I had to use that type of crap system in one of my rather infrequent visits to downtown Dallas. Something that would normally take me somewhere between 30s and one minute with a card reader and a touchscreen, took me about ten minutes with a website visit (I refused to install one more "app"), registration and payment, all over the relatively fast LTE network (it was a weekend). Something so backwards for an infrequent visitor that it prevented me from coming back since then - after all, wasting ten minutes navigating through such convoluted crap with two hungry kinds on my side is enough to shoo away any parent wanting to take a downtown stroll with the family.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 19, 2023, 11:40:19 pm
content: Quote from: Infraviolet on April 15, 2023, 04:56:59 pmFor those living in Australia, this might get you in a whole world of hurt. As we know, driving a vehicle without registration plates is against the law. Generally speaking (and there are some exceptions), a public car park, or any other area used by the public is considered a "road related area" and is subject to the same road rules as any public road. Whether the land is public or private, or who owns it is largely irrelevant. Here, the definition of a "road related area" is any area that is open to and used by the public. It also includes footpaths, nature strips and median strip/central reservation.On the subject of parking metering systems, in some areas you still see the "pay and display" ticket system, although those are being phased out. Typically you'll see one of two systems. Either you enter your registration number and it allocates time that way, or you enter the number allocated to the parking space your vehicle is. Both are simple and don't rely on any apps. The terminals are right there on the street.Commonly in shopping centres, they'll use ANPR to do the accounting for you. You can either pay before you return to your vehicle by entering in your rego plate, or you can pay by card at the exit gate. Most shops have the first few hours for free anyway, so you simply drive in and drive out.Quote from: Circlotron on April 18, 2023, 10:59:29 pmThe fine is assigned to the vehicle at the time the offence is detected. Typically, all the council ranger/parking inspector would see is that the rego on the vehicle did not have a fee paid against it, therefore will issue the infringement to the vehicle (not to the plate that was entered into the system). In some cases, this is done automatically using a vehicle that is fitted with ANPR.That being said, any person with half a brain, after being presented with evidence of payment, the time/date and the registration of the vehicle will see an honest mistake was made and would immediately withdraw the infringement (or invoice if it was issued by a private car park operator). If not, a court will.I'd also like to point out that private companies are not legally allowed to issue "fines" or "infringements". In those cases, they typically use sneaky tactics by issuing "payment notices" that resemble a government-issued fine, but they are nothing of the sort. Ultimately, non-payment becomes a civil matter (if the company wants to pursue you for "losses"). In Australia, they are bound by Australian Consumer Law.

author: Circlotron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 20, 2023, 01:10:40 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on April 19, 2023, 11:40:19 pmThat's interesting. A friend of mine got a parking ticket for parking outside his own house for some non-obvious reason and it was issued by the local council. This council has an ABN number so he says that means it is a recognised business and consequently has no authority to issue fines.https://abr.business.gov.au/ABN/View/43320295742

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 20, 2023, 01:45:24 am
content: Quote from: Circlotron on April 20, 2023, 01:10:40 amCounclis are allowed to make their own local laws (within restrictions) such as parking rules, raise infringement notices, and can be a registered businesses (they handle taxable transactions so an ABN is pretty much essential).Businesses are not afforded the ability to make local laws or raise infringement notices, so they pursue you for breach of contract (parking rules) but is is enforced differently to an infringement notice. For small amounts that often ends up with a debt collection agency pursuing you with strongly worded emails/letters/phone calls.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 20, 2023, 03:33:32 am
content: Quote from: Circlotron on April 20, 2023, 01:10:40 amLocal councils have authorised officers who can issue certain fines (typically parking) under the Road Rules, or under the Local Government Act.An ABN has nothing to do with the issuing or fines or their validity. Police organisations (state and federal) have ABNs as well. It means nothing when it comes to law enforcement. Sovereign citizens often try to pull this kind of crap, it never ends well for them. The offence is always clearly stated on the infringement notice. You can also look up the law part code or act/section to see exactly what the rule was that was breached.

author: hanakp
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 20, 2023, 11:58:02 am
content: I'm going to be caustic here, but: y'all have been so busy building the digital prison camp around you that you forgot you'll have to live in it, too. A few years ago, I actively tried to get signatures for a petition that tried to block a similar parking system in my city, but almost everybody told me to take a hike. Many even looked forward to it. In other words, you (meaning the majority) got what you deserve, so stop your whining. And it's going only to get worse, most of the Western countries are broke and they're going to squeeze the sheeple for every penny they can. Here is just a little taste what state digital currencies (CBDCs) can already do, even when they're still in the experimental phase:https://www.cato.org/study/risks-of-cbdcsWelcome to the future.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 20, 2023, 07:36:59 pm
content: Hope some people will listen to what hanakp said.

author: MrMobodies
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 20, 2023, 08:20:36 pm
content: Quote from: hanakp on April 20, 2023, 11:58:02 amSo they use "technology" in every way they can to enslave and extract as money out of you.They could be going by an automated system where it is all to easy for them where you'd have to do all the manual work and fight it out in court if fined unfairly and beyond common sense even with basic things such as their ticket they had given you possibility lacking enough adhesive or strength falling off the windscreen and then it's all your fault despite paying over a ticket they provided that don't happen to stick very well.https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/mum-wins-five-year-legal-23925698Quote

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 20, 2023, 11:50:07 pm
content: Quote from: hanakp on April 20, 2023, 11:58:02 amCash is becoming a theoretical freedom regardless.The extra-legal censorship from financial services is discrimination in practice which a government service can't get away with.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 20, 2023, 11:56:25 pm
content: Quote from: MrMobodies on April 20, 2023, 08:20:36 pmTrue story: parking ticket machine ran out of ink and printed blank slips, people left the blank slips on their dashboards where they normally would to show they had paid and the ticket machine was faulty. Ticket inspector merrily goes along and fines each car, not bothering to wonder why all the cars that day had the same blank tickets."someone else's problem" all the people fined had to individually request reviews to have the tickets rescinded, wasting huge amounts of time, but the ticket inspector and parking operators aren't charged for that so they don't care.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 21, 2023, 12:02:20 am
content: Quote from: MrMobodies on April 20, 2023, 08:20:36 pmWhat Dumbo thought it was a good idea to have parking tickets that have to be stuck on the inside of the windscreen?Everywhere else just want you to put it on the dash so it is visible.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 21, 2023, 02:09:25 am
content: Quote from: vk6zgo on April 21, 2023, 12:02:20 amIn some place the people checking that the cars have paid use a scanner on the outside of the windscreen to read the tickets. So, if your ticket isn't up close it can't be read, and they can't validate your payment.You could drive a Volvo. For at least 40 years all their cars have had a clip at the side of the windscreen to hold parking tickets against the windscreen.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 21, 2023, 03:39:53 am
content: Quote from: coppice on April 21, 2023, 02:09:25 amMany years ago, when I last visited the UK, when you paid your car Rego, (at least in Hampshire) you got a thin card (from memory, they were usually round, but other shapes did exist) with the details on when it was valid to, so the cops could read it.These required a holder to press it against the windscreen.These holders were available inexpensively at places like Halfords, or some petrol stations.Maybe somebody could set up making something similar, (& just ignore the sticky qualities of the parking ticket), or get them made in the PRC?Another thought is for drivers in the places that use such tickets to keep a roll of sticky tape in the car & always use it as a backup.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 21, 2023, 07:38:57 am
content: Quote from: coppice on April 21, 2023, 02:09:25 amI often get asked by people what that's for. I haven't used mine in years though.

author: factory
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 21, 2023, 01:06:35 pm
content: Only seen this once, as I hate driving & don't go many places, this was in Nottingham, as I use a pay-as-you-go phone, trying to pay by phone call was not an option, not enough credit, plus crap signal, ended up parking at a retail park (with limited free parking) further away & walking. Won't be returning there any time soon.Not interested in apps for payment either, due to the high cost (per MB) of mobile data, google often steals data as soon as you turn mobile data on. Second reason, as the phone is the verification method for online card transactions, I will not put my card details into the same device.Maybe this will hasten the decline of brick & mortar based shops.David

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 21, 2023, 09:29:11 pm
content: You've asked "What do you think ?".I think the topic here is really good, as we all (mostly) have some kind of story involving missed signals / bad carry-through with the smartphone APP thing.Just now, I've been reviewing some mail, health care company offering 'E-Card' (tm of course), where your new E-Card can unlock the customer service numbers and 'other, more' helpful features."Use your E-Card to get unlock all your plan has to offer, make sure to show your card when filling prescription.""Register or sign-in to review your benefits and features and EARN REWARDS..."(I thought I ALREADY had access to 'Plan Features'.)Using this biz model, for the street parking charges, how about (RJ sarcasm alert) how about a 'Gift Card' approach where compliant motorists (Parkers ?), can get instant rewards, like a box of donuts, or $5 credit at Walmart.I seriously DOUBT that my Android derivative smartphone could navigate the parking APP systems, without some horrible, indecipherable glitch impeding my day. Funny that the 'driving skills' set that a person needs are now to include ownership of computing device / data integrity not secure.What responsibilities has that (any) particular parking 'vendor' service, to guarantee that their data transfers are in working order, and...no messages like:"Sorry, you need to upgrade your operating system, or just 'System not supported' message, there blinking at you, on the street.U.S. is using APPs for tracking migrants as they, uh, err, 'enter border crossing river', so I guess...Some folks don't like APPs, and have things like legacy DOS 3.1 just for other reasons or requirements."SORRY; system must be DOS 999.3 or later".(Sarcasm alert terminated)

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 21, 2023, 09:39:48 pm
content: Wanted to ask:Isn't registration number a paperwork thing ? Meaning that a person, or machine vision, doesn't have easy way to read that ? I know VIN number is not easy or quick to read out...(?).Or is that number on the plate, in European systems ?

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 21, 2023, 10:03:54 pm
content: QuoteIn the uk at least,the number plate is on a plate at the front and back of the vehicle,its unique to that vehicle and stays with it for the life of the vehicle (there are exceptions) From the plate you can get an idea as to when and were the car was first registered,also if your towing a trailer you need to fit a number plate on it at the rear with the same number as the car.The vin number is totally separate .

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 21, 2023, 11:52:44 pm
content: Quote from: themadhippy on April 21, 2023, 10:03:54 pmThe number plate actually changes quite often, but changes only happen through the licencing authorities. Any number plate not matching their records is usually due to criminal activity. Any car not registered, which needs to move on public roads, needs to display a special kind of number plate issued to people in the dealer and maintenance networks.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 22, 2023, 12:15:24 am
content: Quote from: themadhippy on April 21, 2023, 10:03:54 pmIn Australia, the number plate is, just as in the UK, placed on the vehicle at first registration, but if the vehicle has been de-registered at some time in its life, it will be issued a new registration number & numberplate. This will also happen if the car is permanently moved from one State to another without any time unregistered.Unlike the UK, the registration number only carries very limited information about "where & when" the first registration occurred.If cops have any suspicions regarding a car's registration status, they can either, in the case of a police car with two officers in it, enter the observed number into the in-car computer, which will reveal all the details of that vehicle's registration, or if there is only one officer, as sometimes happens with cars, & often with police on motorcycles, the number will be reported to base, who will look up the details & relay them to the officer.If the database reveals a set of plates should say, be on a 1995 Holden & they are on a 2008 Nissan, obviously someone is due for some serious "blue bothering"!We used to have windscreen stickers which showed the month & year when the current registration should be renewed. If it was past that date, you could get pulled over, but in practice, a "grace period" was allowed.With in-car computers, the officer can find that information knowing the registration number, so the stickers are no longer required.Most car parks with numberplate readers don't need all that information.They just read the plate when you enter, & read it again when you go to leave, not opening the barrier till you have paid.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 22, 2023, 02:02:37 pm
content: Quote from: vk6zgo on April 22, 2023, 12:15:24 amIn the UK the number plate carries only a likelihood of indicating the date and place of first registration. Plates get changed. Someone wants a custom plate? It gets changed. They sell the car, and want to keep their custom plate? The car gets a new plate with the date of this new registration and a somewhat random location. So, maybe 90% of cars have a plate which matches their age and origin, and the others don't. I don't think a car ever needs a fresh plate for being off the road, unless its one of those major rebuilds that integrates chunks from different cars. There are some horror stories about these, but also a number of perfectly legitimate old classic cars brought back to life.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 22, 2023, 02:12:17 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on April 22, 2023, 02:02:37 pmActually no, if you remove a vanity plate the original number will be assigned back to the vehicle. They are not reused and vehicles are only deregistered if destroyed or permanently exported. At least, that's the current process. Pretty sure there's also rules about misrepresenting a vehicle by assigning a newer plate.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 22, 2023, 02:16:09 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on April 22, 2023, 02:12:17 pmI bought a car like this in the late 70s. They assigned a new plate to the car. Maybe things have changed. Someone indicated that the DVLA could be inconsistent, but my experience was I got a new plate. I was the third owner. The car originally had a plate with its correct first registration year letter, then a custom plate, and then a new plate.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 22, 2023, 05:37:07 pm
content: QuoteDont they get a Q plate,mate built a trike with bits from different vehicles and ended up with one came

author: AVGresponding
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 22, 2023, 06:27:21 pm
content: Q plates were only issued to vehicles that were substantially made of parts of unverifiable age and/or origin. Age related plates are issued to vehicles that are normal vehicles that have either been imported (by request, or you can have a plate that dates to the time of import), have had vanity plates replacing the original ones, or that have been "plate-raped" by jerk-off vanity plate hunters.You can find out more by browsing relevant sections of gov.uk or far better,https://autoshite.com/

author: MrMobodies
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 23, 2023, 03:19:00 am
content: https://www.newsshopper.co.uk/news/23464654.bromley-driver-disgusted-extra-30p-charge-using-ringgo-app/Quote* LIARSI don't see a charge on the billboard despite is showing about "the app".**Oh so now they change the story, now it's a case of "getting use to not seeing that there is a cost to using the "app" and being presented unexpected costs "because the "app" had always done that." - Excuse.Sounds like UTTER BULLSHIT to me... Prices should reflect... you should not need to "get use" to "a system" to be presented with unexpectedly higher costs than the prices advertised. That has nothing to do with "getting use to a system" it is about being clear on the charges.So they went from, that it was mentioned when it is isn't on that sign to "well get use to it."Imagine someone giving you a quote for some work, you accept, they turn around later whilst working to increase the prices citing certain third party services and claiming it is normal and "get use to it". I wonder how this would stand up in a court.If I went into a shop, saw an item with a price, went to pay for it and the shop owner says, oh that's 1/3 higher without mentioning a standing price per item. Wouldn't that look bad on the shop?https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/cars/article-11987323/The-drivers-ripped-rise-daylight-robbery-parking-apps.htmlQuoteI find that very accurate. Expecting customers to pay to use a service to pay for the car park when advertised with one price of just the car park.QuoteQuoteJokeMore like they get the cash through "apps" and fines where you can't pay cash.QuoteI thought it had something to do with the costs of migrating 3g to 4g but why not make it just accept cash and cover up the card holder. If they use ANPR camera's what do they use for that? and they have parking attendants running round ready to give someone a ticket.It reminds me a bit of a scam with phones until "premium text barring" was introduced.When you got a message claiming you signed up to a service when you possibly didn't and even some unintentionally clicking some URLS which was connected to some partner network within their cgnat network of the operator and they'd charge you through the operator until cancelling.I read something on a board from someone complaining, and from what I remember, "if you were openly invited into someone's house, they refuse to let you leave until you pressed a button which you would get charged for pressing in order to leave, now is that right?"Drive in a car park;1. No way to pay or can't park but when you leave the ANPR captures your number plate and you get issued a fine and it doubles on appeal. I read that Some car parks seem to vary on the grace period.2. Paying through an app to be introduced to another charge.Lets not pay £200,000 to maintain the machines anymore and instead fob off and charge the customers a price for a service that we'd effectively be paying for the machines through a third party company but don't update the pricing or mention the standing charge.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 23, 2023, 11:20:51 am
content: Quoteregularly shop at a place that has a 20% extra charge added to the advertised price,think they call it v a t

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 23, 2023, 01:06:43 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on April 22, 2023, 02:02:37 pmPretty much the same in Australia. If you buy a new car and choose the default plates, it'll just get issued the next one in sequence, but you can order just about any plate, with any lettering/numbering provided it's not already taken or doesn't breach the rules (for example, you can't get the word "FUCK" as a number plate). Plates can also be transferred between vehicles, or if the owner wants to keep their plates (randomly generated or otherwise), they can sell their car with entirely new plates and move the old ones onto whatever car they desire.Quote from: vk6zgo on April 22, 2023, 12:15:24 amPolice who are 1-up (or "Alpha units" as we call them in NSW) can also look up vehicles using an MDT, even if they are the driver. I used to do this frequently "back in the day" when I was the supervising Sergeant out on the road. It's not often the supervisor has an off-sider with them. Or, there may be occasions where a General Duties car crew is working alone. It happens.Police are exempt from the road rules (including using a mobile phone or entering information into a computer) while driving. Yes, you can get into all sort of arguments you like about that, but thems are the rules. Of course there is always the police radio if they want to conduct their check verbally and have the radio operator do it for them. Also, many non-highway patrol vehicles used by general duties or proactive policing teams also have ANPR fitted, which does the check for them, automatically.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 23, 2023, 02:53:42 pm
content: Quote from: Halcyon on April 23, 2023, 01:06:43 pmBut they are not exempt for personal business or from consequences if they fail to ensure the safety of those around them while doing so. At least here.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 23, 2023, 05:22:57 pm
content: QuoteI use Ringo and didn't know there was a 30p charge

author: MrMobodies
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 23, 2023, 07:47:15 pm
content: QuoteI wonder if it is the council charging for it.https://www.oxford.gov.uk/info/20078/parking_in_oxford/489/pay_for_parking_by_phone/5#:~:text=Pagesin Pay For Parking By Phone&text=There is no charge for,parking tariff charges which apply.QuoteLooks like it varies across council and car parks.https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6171937/The-park-phone-rip-costing-British-drivers-18million-year.htmlQuote*Rubbish. The money from the tickets and council that would have been used to pay for the machines and maintenance are no more to save them money but are charging EXTRA to make MORE money for these third party companies and what do they mean that "In most cases councils receive nothing of the additional fees" when they themselves "set" the fee's.Taking away infrastructure, charge MORE to "reinvest it" not in transporting but car parks with these "stupid apps" and lack of signage about the fee's.If they talk about "technology" why should someone have to do a whole load of things and put in their numberplate correctly not to receive a fine? Surely in this day and age the ANPR could "give" a hand correctly identifying a number plate on the way in.If they can afford to pay for the Auto number plate reader cameras and it's communications, why not the cash machines?I wonder how can they afford parking wardens to run around issuing fines but not willing to take fares.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 23, 2023, 10:51:59 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on April 23, 2023, 02:53:42 pmIndividually they seem to be slippery, but the larger organisation ends up copping it.Also the road rules do apply to police drivers, with an exception for operational matters that have to be considered on their specific situational merits by the legal system (which police have significant influence over but are not the decision makers as much as they want to think they are).

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 23, 2023, 11:02:10 pm
content: Quote from: MrMobodies on April 23, 2023, 07:47:15 pmYou really should get into the doublespeak and political argument framing if you are going to try and interpret these things. That statement is extremely clear but they dont want to say it directly.We (the council) set the parking fees arbitrarilyThe service provider adds their costs on top of the parking fee we set and you the end customer pay both togetherWe (the council) receive only the parking fee component and the service provider keeps their additional fee [most of the time, please ignore those kickbacks we received from the service provider to secure/maintain/continue their contract]

author: MrMobodies
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 24, 2023, 12:22:26 am
content: I see the council moves the infrastructure costs they'd normally pay on the machines or providers of them (paid from the parking tickets and possible tax they receive) directly onto the customer via their "service provider" and "app".So under this payment model the customers now pay a second charge, " the privilege to pay" via a service provider and no longer the council.The council saves money twice? do away with the machines and not having to pay the service providers and for maintenance.Move it on the customer.Customers pay tax and tickets, council saves money and customers end up paying more.Councils make money.I wonder what they may do next, setup another "service provider" and start charging for "the privilege" of paying council tax.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 24, 2023, 12:57:56 am
content: Quote from: Monkeh on April 23, 2023, 02:53:42 pmThat's right. The action needs to be done safely and if something happens and that driver is at fault, then they aren't covered by the exemption.Quote from: Someone on April 23, 2023, 10:51:59 pmThe law here doesn't stipulate "operational matters", it just states that "reasonable care" must be taken and that the action should be "reasonable" under the circumstances. For example, accepting a phone call from a supervisor or other car crew related to work would be an example of what might be "reasonable". This also applies to police off-duty, for example, if a police officer spots a car that they know to be involved in a crime or the person in it is wanted etc...

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 24, 2023, 01:42:15 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on April 24, 2023, 12:57:56 amYou said argue about "Police are exempt from the road rules [such as example] while driving" which is a misleading and incorrect summation. Absolutely not "the rules".Police receive an exemption from all Road Rules, under certain circumstances (which is not an exemption from other driving offences if you want to be completely accurate). Very rarely is that exemption not given but it has been under increasing scrutiny and is not a free pass:https://australianemergencylaw.com/2019/07/04/victoria-police-and-ambulance-victoria-mou-determines-maximum-speed-for-responding-ambulance/There are multiple clauses that must be met, reasonable care, and reasonable situation, and reasonable warning. That article quotes the Road Rules (applicable law) which knowing your post history will need to be quoted verbatim here:Quote from: Road Rules 2014 (NSW)Those are AND clauses, not OR clauses, identical in all states (after they adopted the national road rules). Parking rule exemptions dont require lights or sirens to be considered, but due care and situational/operational needs are both considered and necessary for the exemption to apply. No free pass, not a blanket exemption, provided on an as required basis that has to be justifiable to a magistrate.

author: MrMobodies
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 24, 2023, 02:39:00 am
content: https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/cars/article-11087093/Sneaky-parking-app-charges-DOUBLE-motorists-bill.htmlQuoteQuoteQuoteCharge extra for booking space after paying or charged extra for not booking space.QuoteSo they send you a text that maybe unwanted and charge you for it?Sounds to me a bit like the"third-party mobile charge" scambut only when using the car park.Quote*Micro charging, more like something out of a third-party mobile scam.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 24, 2023, 07:03:23 am
content: Quote from: Someone on April 24, 2023, 01:42:15 amThat's correct but generally speaking, Police (and other emergency vehicle drivers) are exempt, provided it's both safe and reasonable. I never suggested it's a "free pass".In relation to the conversation about the MOU in Victoria: I have no idea what that website is, but I will say this... An MOU has no legislative power or instrument behind it, it's just a guideline developed by some bosses within an organisation and might include external stakeholders. It's a "suggestion" rather than a hard-and-fast rule (and mostly used to apply the CARE principle -- Cover Arse, Retain Employment). The Road Rules trump any kind of policy or MOU an organisation might come up with.For example, in NSW the Police (as an organisation) frown upon activating speed cameras in excess of 45+ km/hr above the prevailing speed limit. However, as long as you can justify your actions, it's completely fine and the law takes precedence. I can speak personally on this matter as I did exactly that on at least one occasion. All it took was a quick memo typed up in 15 minutes to justify what I did and why and everything was fine. Never heard anything more about it. Ultimately, I was doing my job, and doing it safely. Simples.At the end of the day, when it comes to driving and speed, if someone (especially a colleague in the emergency services) is requesting urgent assistance, speed limits and road rules go out the window. I stick to my own personal driving ability/training and the capabilities of the vehicle I'm driving. If you called emergency services in urgent need of help, you'd expect the same thing. If I damage a police vehicle because of it (running over gutters etc...) then so be it. Vehicles can be fixed, human life is far more important. I've torn the exhaust off a shitty Holden Commodore before, it's not a biggie.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 24, 2023, 07:54:21 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on April 24, 2023, 07:03:23 amThe road rules refer to reasonable, and that is a question for a magistrate. What is reasonable is not specifically defined and shifts with time/politics/precedence. One way to build a basis of reasonable is to point back to standard operating procedures or standards, although not law are supporting what is reasonable. Just as engineers do when demonstrating their competence.Your historic example was reviewed by a magistrate? or simply not pursued? big difference there and would also depend on the date and jurisdiction (the national road rules as quote above changed the law) which may make that an entirely different situation.The included link is a publicly released and recent example of what the parameters of reasonable were seen as, that author has quite extensive writings and discussion on the topic. Note the unnamed source claims police drivers are being referred for prosecution for 25km exceedance, not under the Road Rules but under the other road safety laws which emergency services (including the police) do not have any exemption, and that situation was communicated to other emergency services so they could consider aligning their policies/practices. For a take on the law I'd trust a current lawyer who is willing to put their name and reputation behind their words over an anonymous poster claiming to be an ex cop.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 24, 2023, 10:31:19 am
content: Quote from: Someone on April 24, 2023, 07:54:21 amMy examples never made it to court because nothing ever happened to warrant an investigation/charges (i.e.: I didn't crash/injure someone, act in a negligent manner or contrary to policy/legislation). Not everything makes it to court, in fact, only really the disasters do (which we all aim to avoid).Also, whilst I make certain "claims", I have people on this forum who can vouch for my credentials. I refuse to put my private details out there simply to make a point very few care about. (Not related, but we have had members of this forum stalked/harassed at their home address, something I want to avoid. You will never find my personal information online. Period.).If your lawyer mate was half-decent, they will confirm what I'm saying. Whilst I don't pretend to understand every aspect of law (just like a lawyer can't), I do know my traffic legislation and basic policy/procedures like the back of my hand. That stuff is drilled into you within your first few years. Call it policing 101 if you like. But that aside, I also spent time in Highway Patrol (no judgement, please).

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 24, 2023, 10:58:12 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on April 24, 2023, 10:31:19 amha ha ha, you may have been trained to assert authority as a police officer and demand respect, but that doesnt work out in civilian life.Quote from: Halcyon on April 24, 2023, 10:31:19 amExcept I found your knowledge on that specific chosen topic to be woefully lacking and similarly conceited last time around:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/some-usa-states-replaces-trafic-lights-with-flags/msg4420027/#msg4420027You can be wrong, you could have had some humility and expanded the conversation, but instead choose the authoritarian approach. You may well be repeating completely accurately what you were taught as correct by your institutions, but that does not mean it is correct today or even it was correct then.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 25, 2023, 12:36:25 am
content: Quote from: Someone on April 24, 2023, 10:58:12 amEven back in my sworn days, I never "demanded" respect. I was always taught to earn it and it's something that's always stuck with me. People who demand respect don't have mine, so it it works both ways.I can be wrong, absolutely, but a little tip: if you're going to call someone out for being wrong, at least have the experience or knowledge to back it up. Don't just say "no, you misunderstood things" or "I have a mate...". In other words, bring facts to your argument, don't just say things. I love to debate topics, but I get real bored, real quick when there is no substance to it.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 25, 2023, 02:07:24 am
content: Boycott paid parking (especially the overcomplicated kind) if it is practical? As in park farther away and walk or bicycle the rest of the way.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 25, 2023, 02:48:46 am
content: Quote from: NiHaoMike on April 25, 2023, 02:07:24 amWell that is kind of the point of parking fees, add a real cost to a limited resource so that it will be used "efficiently". Like toll roads.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 25, 2023, 08:22:32 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on April 25, 2023, 12:36:25 amJust so. While I automatically give people "politeness" and even "consideration", I don't give them respect until I know areasonfor respecting them.Variant: "if you've got to say you're a lady, then you ain't". (Which gangster movie does that come from? My google foo is inadequate).

author: AndyBeez
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 25, 2023, 08:02:39 pm
content: In my little village, it is the 4x4 drivers who will not spend two British pounds to park their fifty thousand British pound Range Rover Discos in a spacious car park next to the village shops. Instead, they park outside the village shops for free because, it is a human right for people with personalised number plates to park anywhere they want. And no, they are not putting a parking app on their phone because instead, they need to be talking on their mobile phone whilst driving around waiting for a vacant parking space. I am sure these samewealthy wankersgood citizens exist in Australia and the USA?I use the car park because it's always empty. I would gladly use a parking app. But only on a second 'burner' phone.

author: nali
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 25, 2023, 08:43:52 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on April 25, 2023, 08:22:32 amSort of gangster I suppose... Maggie Thatcher"Being powerful is like being a lady; if you have to tell people you are, you aren't. "

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 25, 2023, 08:47:50 pm
content: Have to say I quite like the Ringo appI recall the 'brefore' times when you'd have to ensure you've got sufficient loose change to put in the machine (and always worry that it wouldn't give you a ticket anyway). You'd park, trundle off to find the machine, trundle back to the car to fix the ticket, etc. With the app there is none of that: park, go. If you let it, the app will even tell you where you are so you don't have to dick around with 4-digit parking IDs.I was initially wary about putting an app on my phone, with visions of needing a different app for each car park. Resisted for a long while, but one day I had to park up at the local hospital and there was no getting away from it - either phone up some number (not an option for me) or use the app.A straight-up benefit is you don't have to put in 3 hours worth of coins because hospital appointments are never on time or last 10 minutes. Just go for the minimum and if it runs out just extend it some more without even getting off your seat.Another time I had to visit some shop in London and, via Google maps, found a car park a street away. Rolled up there on spec and the same app I use here paid for the parking there too. Just makes life a bit easier.Mind, when it's not in active use it is killed off, and made to stay off, by Greenify.

author: nali
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 25, 2023, 09:03:20 pm
content: Down here in the Southwest UK, many of the tiny coastal car parks have become pay-by-app. After all, it's piss easy for councils to put up a sign rather than bother with ticket machines, wardens et al.Strangely, said car parks are usually at the bottom of a steep slope. Which often means no signal.

author: MrMobodies
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 25, 2023, 09:16:19 pm
content: Quote from: nali on April 25, 2023, 09:03:20 pmWhat I find interesting is how do they enforce it and how does the ANPR communicate if there is no signal?Unless there are cables for them hidden away somewhere.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 25, 2023, 09:19:43 pm
content: Quote from: MrMobodies on April 25, 2023, 09:16:19 pmPhone lines are really pervasive in the UK. The line might be too long for anything more that minimum speed ADSL, but there will be one somewhere nearby. Power is more often a problem.

author: nali
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2023, 09:03:52 am
content: Quote from: MrMobodies on April 25, 2023, 09:16:19 pmThey probably don't. The council has a roving man in a van for illegal or inconsiderate parking (e.g. on grass verges or passing places) which is a problem and most of the payment machines are now solar powered cellular connected Parkeon devices. It's the really remote places likehereI was talking about (although to be fair looking at Streetview the pay sign seems to have gone since I was last there a couple of years ago).

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 27, 2023, 12:54:16 am
content: Came across a scenario where it (still barely) seems sensible to do 'on-line or credit /debit card only' and that would be the lone delivery person, as there can be security concerns. But also, these things can get complex to consider:At some point on the risk-tolerance curve, you can, in some U.S. states, obtain a concealed carry handgun, hopefully after criminal background checks.Discussion gets mired though, when discussion shifts to Ukraine...sending them lots of guns seemingly an OK thing, a good thing in fact.Science seems to never shake off the 'parasitics', that twist and turn your logic...into a pretzel according to one's particular slant. Haha, you can't let that get us down, though.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 27, 2023, 01:04:22 am
content: Quote from: Someone on April 25, 2023, 02:48:46 amHaving grown up in a town where paid parking was never a thing I go out of my way to avoid it, the whole concept just rubs me the wrong way. Out of the larger cities near me Seattle is rather car-hostile and has limited an expensive parking, Bellevue on the other hand has much nicer roads and ample free parking everywhere, and it's way cleaner and lower crime too so it's much nicer all around. The result is I avoid even going to Seattle unless I absolutely have to, instead I go to Bellevue and spend my money there. Parking is a cost of doing business, shops that provide adequate parking and don't nickle & dime me for it get my business.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 27, 2023, 01:12:52 am
content: Quote from: james_s on April 27, 2023, 01:04:22 amIn cities, parking is a bigger cost than you appreciate. So are roads, for that matter.