KiCad for Professional use. - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Twistx77
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2020, 10:29:46 am
content: Hi everyone,I want to open a small debate about the use of KiCad Professionally. Most people would say KiCad is only for hobbists and Altium, Orcad, PADS and so on, are for professional use and KiCad can't be used for professional applications. Most of the people that think this way haven't even used KiCad for a while with the at least version 5.So I would like to know specially, from people that uses regularly both KiCad at home for example, and another "professional" package at work (Which is my case, KiCad and Orcad at work), what do they think about KiCad at this stage, can it be used professionally, yes, no and why?My opinion is that yes, it can, and in fact I have used in a startup of medical devices and for freelance designs with no issues whatsoever. I have used at least for a year each, Eagle, Diptrace, Altium, KiCad and Orcad. Of course, Altium and Orcad have many features that make some things easier or tools specially for analysis of emissions, impedance matching, CIS, high speed design, power and so on, but in general, what percentage of a the companies these days need this tools to make a successful product? I mean, I have worked in the Home automation industry, Automotive industry and medical industry. And in most designs I have worked on, even with millions of units produced per year in the automotive secto, the boards where more than "simple" enough to actually not require Altium, Orcad or any of those. Designing for EMC on a "Seats motors module" for Jaguar Land Rover doesn't require any of those the features of Altium or Orcad... Is nice to have but not "Necessary".Of course there are designs that actually require those tools to make them easier to make but in general, I would say they are not absolutely necessary. I think the main point a company with not such a high requirements to choose Orcad, Altium, etc. Are Legacy designs, Support and interoperability with externals company that can develop part of the work for them.But I mean, a lot of small to medium size company could perfectly use KiCad with no big issues. At the moment, I work on a company that desing PCR machines and any of the boards we have could easily be designed with KiCad.What do you guys think?Thank you

author: PKTKS
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2020, 10:46:49 am
content: Just 3 cents... of jambo..Whoever thinks that the thing called Altium and the thing called OrCADare way too different from KiCAD...Should do a deep search on the roots they came from.Before that Altium thing there was the PROTEL thingswhich mostly evolved from the Accel TANGO acquisitionafter those AUTOTRAX era.OrCAD things previous to the Cadence era are not that differentComparing those 3 packages (Altium, OrCAD KiCAD) on thesame TIME TABLE is totally non senseAnd considering how mature and fast KiCAD is now comparedto several decades needed to evolve from PROTEL-> AltiumOrCAD SDT to Cadence ...I would say that keeping things as is in a few time frame window this question is solvedPaul

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2020, 10:51:11 am
content: The difference is in how the logistics are handled. Copied my text from a thread below:Regarding KiCad: this isn't ready for professional use yet. The component management system (or lack thereof) simply isn't up to the task yet. A good PCB cad package has a database back-end for the components (like the CIS option for Orcad and Altium has an integrated component library system). Without a good component managementsystem the logistics of having a PCB produced and library management in general quickly become extremely time consuming.What you want is to create a bill-of-materials with one click and change multiple components in one go. The problem with KiCad is that the creators did not understand that a component is not a singular entity and consequently they made a symbol as a component. Back in the old days many CAD packages worked that way (and can still do) but it is not an efficient and error-free way of working.A much better approach is to have the components in a database. In this database a component is made up from schematics data (value & description), logistics data (manufacturer, order code, alternatives, stock levels, etc), a symbol and a footprint. Orcad Capture CIS works this way and I can highly recommend to look for some videos. Altium has a similar workflow. In the end the component in your schematic refers to a record number in your database. If you change the database you can apply these changes to all the components in a schematic at once. Or just go through the component list and change components in one go. For example: if you discover you have a whole bunch of mixed 10V and 6.3V 1uf ceramic caps in your schematic. With Orcad Capture CIS it is extremely easy to change all the 6.3V capacitors into 10V capacitors and don't miss a single one (I assume Altium offers a similar workflow). I have been using Orcad Capture CIS for over 20 years and never want to work without a database driven component management system again.Last time I checked KiCad doesn't have a integrated component management system like this.

author: PKTKS
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2020, 11:06:05 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on October 10, 2020, 10:51:11 amnor did any of those other (SEVERAL DECADES OLD) tools...the big issue is the size of the pockets.Each of them bought a whole company to suit such database integrationor having top to bottom control of the design and component offer/sell/distributionhttps://octopart.com/I guess that the semicon buz just collapsed to a hand of such big monopolylike folks.. I can think element14, digikey, octopart...the players are actually diminishing ... not by chance

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2020, 02:13:03 pm
content: Quote from: PKTKS on October 10, 2020, 11:06:05 amYou should read better. Orcad Capture CIS which has a database driven integrated component management system exists for over 2 decades. I have been using it for over 2 decades myself and. In addition there is no reason to compare KiCad to old CAD packages; we don't need the way the old packages work. We need software that meets today's standards. For starters parts come in way more different packages compared to the old days.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2020, 03:19:29 pm
content: Surely whether something can be used professionally depends on what it needs to do and whether it fulfills than need, not whether it''s all-singing all-dancing. If you want to run off a few footprint adapters, you don't really need a schematic, never mind a fancy relational database backend. For instance. Just as the full Visual Studio isn't strictly necessary to write a quick batch file.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2020, 05:40:25 pm
content: Quote from: dunkemhigh on October 10, 2020, 03:19:29 pmNo but that simple batch file may need to end up in the version system even though it is just a simple batch file. If the tool you use has a nice integration with a versioning system then that is where the added benefit is.Bottom line: The OP concentrates on the difficulty of a circuit to choose the tool while forgetting about the logistics involved when a circuit needs to be produced & maintained.

author: Feynman
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2020, 06:00:57 pm
content: Well, you can do amazing thinks with KiCAD. The itself tool is mature enough to be used professionally, I guess (depends on the requirements, of course). The reason why I personally wouldn't use KiCAD professionally is simply the missing support. Sometimes I need to pick up the phone and have someone look into something ASAP. When a highly paid engineer has to search for hours for a solution on the internet the "free" KiCAD gets very expensive very quickly.This doesn't mean, of course, that you can't have an expensive tool AND shitty support

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2020, 06:25:26 pm
content: Doesn't CERN use KiCad? I don't know if it counts as "professionally" since I was doing consulting work but I have used it to design a couple of different low volume commercial products. I know there are multiple other products out there designed with KiCad though I don't know how many. The tool is capable, a lot of it is mostly inertia, the old "nobody ever got fired for buying IBM" thing.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2020, 09:17:17 pm
content: QuoteThat would seem to fit all 2.5 definitions in the ODE:QuoteYou used it in your profession, thus it's a professional tool. I think the only way it could escape the definition is if you aren't in fact a professional, and I'll someone else argue the toss over that

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2020, 11:51:41 pm
content: Quote from: dunkemhigh on October 10, 2020, 09:17:17 pmWell I'm not a PE, but I was being paid for the work and I delivered the designs so personally I consider that "professional" but whatever.

author: pointhi
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2020, 07:55:24 am
content: Quote from: Feynman on October 10, 2020, 06:00:57 pmYou already have the possibility to get paid support, from two of the lead developers:https://www.kipro-pcb.com/For database libraries: this feature is currently in specification, and will likely appear with KiCad 7:*https://docs.google.com/document/d/1qXwFPbYOwFXRNvjRN5BttRX_4esEDdYDt1cOpOmNc8A

author: Twistx77
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2020, 05:23:12 am
content: Hi Everyone,Thank you for all your opinions! I have seen a lot of comparison but what I want to know if actually if even with its pitfalls (CIS missing for example), it could be considered to be used on professional environments. For sure, Nvidia won't design there next top of the line reference graphics cards PCB on it. But I don't see any problems for a small to medium size company using it to build up a business.Could you actually after your opinion state, I don't think it can be used professionally at any level because this and that or I do think it can be used professionally for this or that type of businesses. I think this could even be used for future developers.Thank you

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2020, 05:17:21 pm
content: Of course it could be used professionally. I'm not quite sure what it is that you're trying to get here?

author: Karel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2020, 06:30:32 pm
content: Quote from: Feynman on October 10, 2020, 06:00:57 pmhttps://www.kipro-pcb.com/main/subscribe/What kind of support exactly do you miss?

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2020, 06:22:48 pm
content: Quote from: Twistx77 on October 12, 2020, 05:23:12 amIn the end it depends on how much your time is worth. Component management is something I focus on because it saves me time both in creating a bill of materials and not having to hunt mistakes I made in a manually created Excel sheet (which needs updating with every iteration of the schematic). It is not good for a business to look at what tools costs; looking at what tools add to the business in terms of profitability and insurance against problems (due to a better workflow / automatic checks) is a much better way. You know how the old saying goes: 'penny wise, pound foolish'.A long time ago I was involved in a project where someone designed a 6 layer board including a 1GHz+ SoC and DDR memory using Geda and PCB. First of all it took him a lot of time to design the board and secondly he spend several weeks hunting for a leakage current when the device was in standby (which in the end was caused by an error in the BOM). All that time the customer grew more angry because they couldn't use the device on location due to the batteries getting drained way too quickly.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2020, 06:51:23 pm
content: If you like Kicad, all the more power for you. Honestly.Kicad is very powerful, probably the best free EDA software, outclassing many paid software (I'm looking at you Eagle and entry level Orcad). I didn't realize there is a support option for it, good.There are still powerful tools in for example Altium, that can be worth to purchase. For example the Octopart integration can make your purchasing or design cheaper. I very much like the new Draftsman, I use it extensively to create documentation for the boards. To create drawings, where I can point out isolation distances or to provide drawings and STEP files for mechanical design. As a professional, I always gravitate to Altium, because I dont want to put my job on the line for a software. I know it works, and if there is some problem, it can be solved.And I'm extremely happy that there is a free alternative, that is getting traction and features that are useful and powerful. This means that:1) I can use it for personal projects. I havent finished a board in it yet, but I can see this happening2) If there is an alternative, that puts price pressure on Altium3) There is a second option, in case I would be working somewhere where they dont want to invest so much in an EDA software.4) Probably I will see less designs on niche unknown EDA tools