I need a proper video microscope. - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 01, 2013, 02:44:11 am
content: As the title says, I think I need to spend some $$$ and do this properly. The microscope work on my latest video is ugly and tedious.Preferably I want something I can use with my existing Canon video camera, because using a USB cam and capturing on a PC just screws with my workflow. But will do that if I have to.Something from maybe 40x to 200x would be nice, with quality optics, not some shitty ebay USB microscope.Opinions?

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 01, 2013, 03:00:45 am
content: I just stuck my smaller x10 Opteka macro lens on the front of my camera with my existing x10 lens, and it works pretty good.A fair bit of distortion on the outside at full zoom on the camera, but otherwise not bad at all.Maybe I could screw in as many of these needed? Two and three lens seems workable at least.I'm wondering if the larger 77mm version would offer less edge distortion over my standard 52mm lens?So 52mm lens to screw into the camera, then two 72mm lenses on front?

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 01, 2013, 03:16:01 am
content: Some quick measurements show the extra x10 macro lens gives about x2 zoom above just one x10 macro lens.For full zoom on my camera, I get:3mm field of view for 3 x10 lenses7mm field of view for 2 x10 lenses14mm field of view for my normal x10 lens.Diminishing returns it seems.But still better than I have at the moment.

author: jmole
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 01, 2013, 04:06:21 am
content: I know you're not a big DSLR guy, but getting yourself a nice macro lens with some extension tubes and shooting with the "crop mode" on most DSLRs (e.g. Canon 600D) will get you pretty extreme magnification.

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 01, 2013, 04:06:55 am
content: You should also look for chromatic aberration as you add more lenses too. It gets ugly fast.

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 01, 2013, 05:37:20 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on May 01, 2013, 03:00:45 amDave, I don't know how much you do or don't know about photography, hope this general info helps.You did not say if you want it for stills or for motion/video. For video/motion, you need adequate sharpness but the contrast and color responsiveness matters more than sharpness. For most still, you need the sharpness. Unless you are aware, lost of contrast can easily be masked as a lighting problem. Contrast can be adjusted with most camcorder/camera (at a lost of details).- In general, a fixed focal length lens provides the best sharpness and best contrast.- In general, a zoom is not as good as fix focal but better then lens modifier (like x2, x5, x10 adaptors).- In general, the smaller the zoom factor, the better image.If you really want top quality, get those camera with removable lens. Some camcorder do have removal lens, but they are expensive. Jmole's suggestion about DSLR is a good one. Get one lens for each range rather than a wide-value zoom. Some DSLR can also record video. For in-place (not moving around much) filming, you can't beat a good (D)SLR with fixed (non-zoom) lens. A good barrel or tube extension with a good macro lens can almost compete with optical microscope with camera adapter. Good optical microscope will be able to focus in much closer.Focal length adapter is rather like a male/female electrical plug adapter. Plugging a plug into an adapter with right plug-end to fit is not too bad; string 4 of them together to get the right plug-end and you are sure to have problems.>> I look at the focal length adapters like well, USB Digital Scopes. It does have a role, but not like a bench scope (fix focal lens) <<If you must use focal length adapter/multiplier... beside distortion, watch for lost of contrast and test your setup with the camera built-in lens set to 1x zoom (no zoom). Lost of contrast is hard to see off-hand. Some would just think they have a lighting problem.So, if you don't want to re-purchase a whole new setup and stay with your existing Cannon, you are pretty much stuck with multiple focal length adapters. Get adapters with good aperture and contrast will lessen the problem.If you want to repurchase but stay with Camcorder rather than DSLR, look at those with good lens. Sony use Carl Zeiss lens, can't get much better than that. (Well, of course there is better.) I am not sure Sony makes removable lens Camcorder. Shop for good lens aperture instead of big zoom - you will be focus length adapting anyway so big zoom is of little use.Few would argue Carl Zeiss being top, when it come to 2nd tier, I like Nikon. Nikon came from the camera side of the world vs Sony's electronic side of the world. You may find some Nikon Camcorders with removal lens (not sure, never tried.) I think Nikon make much better lens than Cannon, but that is not as clear cut as comparing 2nd tier to Carl Zeiss. (Cannon makes everything from copiers to camera, they are not "a camera company from birth")Rick

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 01, 2013, 06:16:17 am
content: Dave, whilst I don't seem to have any solutions but after watching the LCD panel teardown today, can I request that you give us some scale reference of size of the object being magnified.A saw a glimpse of screw-driver at one stage but don't know how big the screwdriver is. No biggie, I mean I'm not losing sleep, or find it all that irritating. Not as irritating as, for example, seeing a U.S. dime (or is it a nickel?) next to an object.

author: ecat
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 01, 2013, 07:01:15 am
content: Looking at the Opteka Macro lens and other options after your last video the word on the net is to use extension tubes, a reversing adapter and some other standard lens parts. Way beyond my knowledge of photography but here's a couple of links to get you startedhttp://nikonrumors.com/forum/topic.php?id=565http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/663112( Warning! Contains images of fly sex)

author: baljemmett
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 01, 2013, 10:13:09 pm
content: Quote from: Rick Law on May 01, 2013, 05:37:20 amWell, Canon's first product was a camera -- the Kwanon I, from memory, with the spelling Canon only being adopted with the introduction of the Mk. II -- so they aren'tsolelya camera company, but they certainly have built cameras from birthNikon have stuck to cameras and optics for the most part but similarly don't just build photographic kit; microscopes, binoculars and opthalmics all feature in their range too.

author: KJDS
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 01, 2013, 10:30:36 pm
content: Quote from: Rick Law on May 01, 2013, 05:37:20 amI've got a Sony Power HAD DXC-950P in front of me with a microscope lens on it. Some day I'll find the time to test it. I'll post a report once I see how well it works. I've also got a JVC in a similar set up that needs testing.

author: lgbeno
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 01, 2013, 10:55:54 pm
content: At a previous employer we had a lens adaptor that fit into the microscope eyepiece for taking still shots. It worked pretty sweet, only issue is that you can't look in at the same time. Ignore the prices but this is sort of what I'm talking about:http://www.microscopeworld.com/c-332-olympus.aspxWhat about your fancy Mantis scope?

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 02, 2013, 01:44:51 am
content: Quote from: baljemmett on May 01, 2013, 10:13:09 pmInteresting, I just looked it up and you are right! They made (what looks like) a Leica imitation. I remember wrong!Speaking of Leica, I love to have a Leica M4. Too bad you can hardly find film for it anymore...Rick

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 02, 2013, 02:57:59 am
content: Quote from: jmole on May 01, 2013, 04:06:21 amLike what magnification for example?Is it better than my 3mm field of view on my Canon video camera?

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 02, 2013, 03:04:46 am
content: Quote from: Rick Law on May 01, 2013, 05:37:20 amI'm a video blogger, so video of courseQuoteYes, but how much equivalent magnification can I expect?QuoteI won't change camcorders, but am happy to buy a cheap DSLR or Micro 4/3 EVIL camera and a suitable lens for the task.Would probably have to buy that anyway if I got a good tri port microscope, as USB microscope cameras suck in many ways.QuoteThe Olympus fanboys might have something to say about that. %-B

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 02, 2013, 03:05:49 am
content: Quote from: lgbeno on May 01, 2013, 10:55:54 pmIt's useless for video, and only does x20 tops. My current Canon with x10 lens can do as good or better.

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 02, 2013, 05:57:38 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on May 02, 2013, 03:04:46 amAh, I was not sure if you were using it for super close-up of specific part or component only. That being the case, I will adjust the rest of my comments to follow.Quote from: EEVblog on May 02, 2013, 03:04:46 amThis is a solution for mainly for stills of one or a few components. You can reach 40x easy; I have seen it done. But with videos, there is a problem: your lens need to be very close to the subject (cm to sub-cm range max). With videos, you need some space between the camera and your stuff being shown so you can manipulate them live. I would not expect this solution to work well if it is mainly video.For the comments below, I am assuming 1-2 meters is the preferred distance.cm range: your best solution may be to get an adapter to a soldering microscope. Generic microscope doesn’t leave you a lot of room to manipulate things. A soldering scope has to leave enough space for you to work. So that could be best solution (in my opinion) for magnification, resolution, and practicality trade-off.Meter(s) range: The barrel extension breaks down for this distance and likely not work well. Here is another solution that “should work” but I have not seen it use this close (below 2meter away): use an astronomy telescope with camera adapter. I have a refractor telescope Meade ETX 90/EC (with a camera adaptor available which I did not buy). I like watching stars, but I also watch animals. I can pull things in super close (see the face of the squirrel on the tree 40 feet away). My telescope can only focus well when the subject exceeded 30-40 feet-ish (10 meter) from the telescope or perhaps more. Focus adjustments varies from telescope to telescope. There are those with wider focus adjustment. I have not tried but I can see it is reasonable to get it into good focus for 1-2 meter range. It will depend on your camera's ability to focus, the telescope, and the eye-piece extender tube (if available for that model).Also, in the hobbyist astronomy circle, some fit a camera directly on an eye piece instead of a quality camera adapter which replaces the eye-piece. I have taken picture (camera-to-eye-peice) of animals and birds on a tree. Camera-to-eye-piece is easier and I suggest the first thing to try. Contact your local astronomy store and see what they suggest or do they have anything to try. Then you can see if your camera+telescope is a ready-to-go solution or not.There is one big plus with this solution: Astro telescope often comes with electronic control so you can track the stars as it moves across the sky. I have a hand-held control for the ETX90/EC (EC for electronic control), and I can use the RS232 port and let the PC do the driving. You can actually do a simple left-right-up-down camera control panel right on your bench (or even program it to follow your hand.)I assume you want ready-to-go solutions and don’t want to go to this extend, but here is some extra info just in case: Astronomy telescope length adapters are often tubes with screw threads at both ends. Some doesn’t even use screws. Physics say a short extension should allow it to focus in on closer things. Perhaps you have a friend to machine an empty tube with threads at both ends. Try using PVC pipe and duct tape to test for the length of extension needed for 1-2 meter focus, and then have a buddy machine a short tube extension.Quote from: EEVblog on May 02, 2013, 03:04:46 amAhem, my opinion is: they will be wrong… Like comparing a Fluke 87V to a Victor 86C… (Just fanning the fire a bit…)I was for a brief time a full-time professional photographer and I did free-lens portraits and weddings for much longer. While I have not done professional photography for a while now, but any lens that cannot resolve individual hair for a head-shot at 20 feet is sub-par to me.Confession time: photography is what took me away from my childhood interest in electronics. I found it much easier to attract girls with a good photograph of her than a good soldering job on a PCB.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 02, 2013, 06:11:36 am
content: Quote from: Rick Law on May 02, 2013, 05:57:38 amNo, I don't really need to manipulate anything. I can move the abject around under the lens.It would be nice to get a pointer in their nearly horizontal, but it's not essential.Quote1-2metersworking distance?No, I'd be happy with 1-2cm working distance.Quote1m-2m range is not really practical for me. I need to easily attach my video camera or DSLR camera and watch the viewfinder as I talk.Perhaps I could have an external monitor at a lower level, but now we are getting real fussy.Once again, what equivalent zoom range could I expect form such a setup compared to a microscope solution?QuoteActually, Olympus have always made some the finest optics in the world for microscopes and cameras.

author: jmole
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 02, 2013, 07:41:05 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on May 02, 2013, 02:57:59 amtypically macro lenses aren't spec'd in terms of field of view.Take for example, this:http://shop.usa.canon.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_10051_10051_171617_-1It specs a 5x magnification, i.e., the image on the sensor will be 5x the size of the image in real life." at its maximum magnification, you can fill a 35mm frame with a grain of rice".Now consider that shooting a 600D in 3x video crop mode, you're talking about 1.6x * 3x, plus 5x from the lens = 25x magnification.600D has a APS-C sensor, which is 1/1.6 the size of a 35mm "full frame" camera. In crop mode, you can use 1/3 of the sensor at full 1920x1080 HD video (http://philipbloom.net/forum/threads/why-the-3x-crop-mode-on-the-canon-600d-is-so-amazing.3253/)So if you can fill a full 35mm frame with a grain of rice, you've got .208x the width of a full 35mm frame in 3x crop mode on an APS-C sensor, so you can fill a full HD frame with 1/5th a grain of rice. Hello there, Mr. 01005 component!Best bet is to find a high-end camera dealer, and test out the combo yourself. If you were in NY, I'd recommend B&H, but I have no idea about Australia.Good luck!

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 02, 2013, 07:52:48 am
content: .......No, I don't really need to manipulate anything. I can move the abject around under the lens.It would be nice to get a pointer in their nearly horizontal, but it's not essential.1-2metersworking distance?No, I'd be happy with 1-2cm working distance.......Great, then barrel extension is a great solution since that works horizontally as well as any other position.I just reviewed all the comments so far. I can't find where you might have mention your camcorder model other than it being a Cannon.Two questions:1. Is the lens removable?2. What replacement macro lens can you get for your model camcorder?If either of the above is NO, then you need to switch over to video-enabled DSLR to use this solution. The so call "prosumer" class DSLR should have removal lens, video with sound, and with a good selection of replacement macro lens. The extension barrel is manufacturer specific like lens, and different macro lens will have different barrel it can use/take. They must be matched.Last time I purchased a lens was just a bit over 5 years ago, so price estimate is just to give a rough idea and I am guessing the price change for for 5 years.I am not sure how much things cost where you are; in the USA, reasonable quality DSLR with video capability and replaceable lens are in the $500 range. Good macro lens are in the $200 range. Barrels are typically cheaper than lens. The final cost and magnification capability of course will depend on your actual camera and lens choice. I would guess in the USA, it should not exceed $1k for a very high quality camera+len+all mounting hardware. Typical tripots wont work well, you'll need those mounting for desktop operation.Single lens-multiplier/lens-adapter (same thing, different people call it different) is a reasonable good solution particularly if you can get a macro lens with large aperture. Large aperture lens must be designed to deal with edge better since the lens is bigger. That will lessen any ill effect caused by lens-multipliers. Still, I would not recommend putting on multiple.Pay special attention to lighting. Good lighting pushes the optics to operate in the range of best tolerance. Depth of field is greatest when lighting is strong.I hope you have a good camera store near by. Some of the stuff you really have to try in person.Good luck!Rick

author: jmole
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 02, 2013, 07:54:05 am
content: Here's a sample of the 5X mode on the lens I mentioned on a APS-C camera:http://www.amazon.com/gp/customer-media/permalink/mo2XO2B7K6L1QDL/B00009XVD5/ref=cm_ciu_images_pl_linkNow imagine 1/3 of that image (1/9th the area), in full HD. You're talking 1.4mm x 0.9mm, in 1080p resolution. Not too shabby. Just need tons of light, a high F-stop, and good focus.

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 02, 2013, 08:15:57 am
content: Quote from: jmole on May 02, 2013, 07:41:05 amWow, you are recommending the really top end! I was suggesting stuff around the enthusiast class. I didn't dare to recommend such top-end equipment.But I absolutely agree, personal visit to the high-end camera store is a must. Cheap everyday camera store is not going to have any of these specialized equipment.Nothing like snapping a few and see the quality difference. Optics is like well, DMM's. Better one costs.Rick

author: baljemmett
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 02, 2013, 01:51:20 pm
content: Quote from: Rick Law on May 02, 2013, 08:15:57 amLittle aside regarding enthusiast-class kit -- I had an e-mail from a supplier this morning telling me about Canon's 'summer cashback' promotion, which looked like it could knock 10% or more off a 600D body + EF-S macro lens (not MP-E, obviously!) bought in combination. Don't know if they're going to be offering a corresponding 'winter cashback' for our antipodean friends though...No idea whether Dave would fancy going with a Canon (to match his camcorder) or something else / cheaper for this, but thought it might be worth a mention!

author: baljemmett
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 02, 2013, 02:05:54 pm
content: (Veering rather off-topic here, sorry Dave -- will try and keep it down!)Quote from: Rick Law on May 02, 2013, 01:44:51 amYep, everyone and his dog were making Leica knockoffs back then -- apart from the Russians, perhaps, who were making Contax knockoffs in Kiev... I believe the early Canon Leica-alikes are pretty pricey on the second-hand market or I'd have picked one up; as it is I only have the 7 (with its dedicated 50mm f/0.95), a few Canonets and a Kiev in the rangefinder wing of my collection.QuoteYes indeed -- if I were rich man, and all that. Going rate appears to start at what I paid for my 7 and goes up, and up... Film-wise I've recently started feeding my machines some Ilford emulsions which are reasonably easy to come by around here, but now that Ektachrome's gone and my stock is dwindling I need to find a new E-6 film I like -- something by Fuji, no doubt. I can feel the day coming when I will be the proud owner of several dozen camera-shaped paperweights

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 02, 2013, 02:16:03 pm
content: Quote from: jmole on May 02, 2013, 07:41:05 amGreat info there, thanks.$1K for a lens though - ouch.

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 02, 2013, 03:11:45 pm
content: You don't need to spend $1k. If you have a 50mm normal lens, you can reverse mount it using an adapter and it then becomes a macro lens. And/or you can mount it using extension tubes as mentioned earlier and have more magnification.

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 02, 2013, 05:32:03 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on May 02, 2013, 02:16:03 pmBy the way,get a high quality UV filter(even if you just go with cheaper enthusiast class equipment). A filter servesas a lens protectorvery well. When you have only a few cm clearance, you are bound to bump into the actual glass lens sooner or later. Glass doesn't scratch so easy, but the coating will scratch much easier. UV being invisible, the "side effect" is least when used "merely" as a lens protector.I probably under-estimating the cost of the enthusiast/prosumer class equipment cost too. As I said, last I brought a lens was a bit over 5 years ago. Macros are specialty lens. Not like the typical where volume makes up the design cost.Good luck. Looking forward to hear what you ended up with and see the results with your future videos.

author: jmole
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 02, 2013, 05:45:52 pm
content: Don't forget, when you're not using it for microscopy, something like the Canon 60mm EF-S Macro is a great portrait lens for the kids.

author: G7PSK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 02, 2013, 08:57:41 pm
content: If you just have distortion on the outside of the image when you put the extra lens on your camera, mask it with a piece of black card with a suitable size hole cut in it. My father was a professional photographer and he often used this trick.

author: staxquad
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 03, 2013, 03:59:12 am
content: Quote from: Rick Law on May 02, 2013, 01:44:51 amWent to Thailand/Cambodia in Oct-Nov 2012 with a Leica M5 and Sony Nex 5N (digital), sharing lenses, the M5 using Fuji Provia 100F film purchased in Bangkok and processed in Bangkok. (also have an M4) Used a lot of Kodachrome before they killed it (still have 14 rolls in my freezer hoping someone will revive K14 processing for die hards)If you want to use film, you can, it's availablehttp://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/search?atclk=Format_35mm&ci=2545&N=4294548524+4130468176

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 03, 2013, 05:37:37 am
content: Quote from: jmole on May 02, 2013, 05:45:52 pmYes, I have a 50mm macro lens on my Olympus E-510, does take great portrait photos.

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 03, 2013, 05:54:21 am
content: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Olympus-OM-Lens-to-Canon-EOS-EF-Adapter-focus-infinity-/250622954247?pt=US_Lens_Adapters_Mounts_Tubes&hash=item3a5a4acb07

author: peter.mitchell
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 03, 2013, 06:45:35 am
content: I dunno about using a DSLR for something like this, generally you would want a smaller sized sensor for more apparent DOF would you not? i think something like a micro 4/3rds with a smaller sensor (and cheaper) may be better, or something even smaller.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 03, 2013, 08:51:23 am
content: Quote from: peter.mitchell on May 03, 2013, 06:45:35 amYes, a micro 4/3 would be better. No need for any high end DSLR.But I also already have my spare 2nd cam, a Canon HF M400. Would be nice if I could make use of that.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 03, 2013, 12:52:57 pm
content: Quote from: wilfred on May 03, 2013, 12:13:20 pmMy current quality is pretty crap, and yes, it doesn't encourage me to try and get good close-up shots.QuoteYes, I could do that, but I'd have to point the camera at a monitor, and that has it's own issues in terms of quality and repeatability, more so than my current setup I think.The issue primarily comes down to video production workflow, an issue which most people don't have. Any sort of USB camera solution is a pain because it needs a PC, and that PC needs a studio mic to get decent quality audio. But even then it's going to sound different. In theory I could set up a dedicated machine to do this, but it's just more stuff on my work benches.By far the best solution for me is to use my existing video camera and have a suitable lens that gets me the equivalent of 50-100X or something. That way I simply slip on the lens, invert my tripod, and shoot. No PC, no cables, no fuss. Same mic as I use for the rest of the video, so it will sound seamless with the other footage in the video.I even have a spare camera that can be semi permanently dedicated to the task.

author: Strada916
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 03, 2013, 01:28:50 pm
content: Would a Frazier lens do? Might not be cheap.

author: KJDS
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 03, 2013, 02:25:59 pm
content: This thread has inspired me to dig out and play with some of the video microscopes I've got lying round the house. I've just listed the first on ebay with pics showing a board on minimum and maximum zoom.http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=350786639816

author: KJDS
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 03, 2013, 03:12:33 pm
content: And here are a couple of pictures of the same board using the same model camera, this time using a Leica MZ12.Note that although there isn't the same high level magnification, because the Leica optics are far better, the details shown on the via hole at max mag are far clearer

author: blasto9000
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 03, 2013, 09:29:06 pm
content: I recently went through this decision tree (optical vs. digital microscope) and since I needed something "NOW," I used a Logitech web cam.As-is it would focus as close as 6-8 inches or so. I took it apart just to see what's-what and found that the lens was mounted in a barrel with M12x0.5 threading. So it was just a matter of partially "unscrewing" the lens assembly in the holder to get it to focus at less than an inch.Logitech has their own software, but I ended up machine-mounting the camera (to pan an X-Y table beneath it) and used a trial version of Mach3 to superimpose crosshairs and locating circles on the PC screen.I don't know what the apparent magnification works out to (which I guess would change with the size of the screen and video window) but it was definitely microscope-like and finding features at .003-inch in length was no problem.Oh... LIGHTING was the hard part. With the lens that close to the subject I was having a hard time getting enough light. (Ordered a ring-shaped microscope light from Amazon but haven't received it yet.)

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 03, 2013, 09:52:23 pm
content: Quote from: blasto9000 on May 03, 2013, 09:29:06 pmMy current Olympus SZ microscope with x2 barlow lens to give x80 mag (0.7 - 4.0 zoom + x10 eyepiece) can't use the LED ring light I have, the working distance is so low (a cm or two).In any case, I think Canon video camera will have an equivalent zoom with those multiple x10 lens. I just need to try some more experiments (like using extender tubes for each lens)

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 04, 2013, 09:14:15 am
content: Does anyone know what range the Ampscope Trinocular microscope have on their camera port?Because that port doesn't have the x10 or x22 eyepiece, I assume they are x8-x9 equivalent (or twice that wiht a x2 barlow lens), and then rely on the zoom of your attached camera?i.e. could I expect a x80-x90 equivalent on my Canon with full x10 zoom?

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 04, 2013, 09:25:25 am
content: I think this is what I ultimately want:http://www.ebay.com/itm/11X-80X-Inspection-Zoom-Monocular-Microscope-w-Coaxial-Light-/400427943454Just a monocular lens system that supports my video camera.All I would need is a C-mount adapter for my 58mm, 52mm, or 43mm Canon camera thread...Not sure how they get their specified x80 zoom though

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 04, 2013, 09:42:03 am
content: I found this mob who make a universal microscope adapter for every camera and video camera.http://www.lmscope.com/produkt22/LM_Mikroskop_Adapter_Mikroskope_en.shtml

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2013, 02:53:41 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on May 04, 2013, 09:25:25 amDave,I looked at this page closely and read the specs. One missing number is aperture (aka f-stop). The aperture usually expressed in f-stop (smaller=better). It is a way to express lens diameter and focal length (distance between the lens and where light is collected). Looking at the picture of the equipment, I suspect the aperture is very small. The tube is very thin - the diameter of the lens just can't be that big.The manufacturer may use telescope terms, so they may express it in "brightness index" (mostly used with telescope) or "exit pupil".I search on Google for "H800-CL lens aperture" and found nothing.I suspect while the equipment will work, may not work very well. With a small aperture, you wont be able to throw enough light at the subject to make good pictures. The more the light, the more tolerant it is (better depth-of-field) and the better the color and contrast.You definitely should get a definitive answer to that (what is is f-stop or aperture or lens-diameter) before you order. If they don't know, ask them for a direct measurement of the lens diameter. Worst case, ask for tube diameter. The lens will be smaller than the tube, so that will get you the upper-limit of the lens diameter.Rick

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2013, 03:18:27 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on May 04, 2013, 09:42:03 amDave, these guys are interesting. They know what they are doing (based on how their write ups on the site.)This page on their site basically describe a ready-to-go macro lens and extension barrel to convert a camera to microscope. You should contact them and discuss with them exactly what you already have and ask them what they have that fit your particular camera.http://www.lmscope.com/produkt22/LM_Makroskop_Uebersicht_en.shtmlYou can ask them to photograph some internationally-standard object with similar set-up and email it to you. (They probably don't have an Australian coin, and I can't think of a common international object off hand.)Oh, best look at their compatibility list firsthttp://www.lmscope.com/produkt22/Kompatibilitaetliste_LM_DSLR_Makroobjektive_en.shtmlGive them a holla, I think they can help you make the choice of "do I buy add-ons to what I already have", or "do I buy new equipment for best result," and how either solution may look. Looks like they can, now you need to test their customer-service...Rick

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2013, 05:38:58 am
content: An object that is small and available world wide is a M3 PC mounting screw. Small, detailed and very common.

author: KJDS
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2013, 09:15:33 am
content: Quote from: Rick Law on May 05, 2013, 02:53:41 amThat lens set up looks very similar to the one I used in my first post above. It's good enough for viewing pcbs, but not anywhere near as clear as an identical camera through a high end Leica. If I get a spare few hours I'll take some more comparative shots to get a better idea of the difference in performance.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 05, 2013, 09:32:59 am
content: Quote from: Rick Law on May 05, 2013, 03:18:27 amYeah, saw that.Only x16 magification though.Not really designed for the high mag work which I want.

author: G7PSK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2013, 05:26:26 pm
content: I have a very similar usb microscope, it supposedly goes to 500x not sure it does though.I have taken a couple of foto's with it one of pencil lead on paper the other a micro chip on a passport.

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2013, 06:01:12 pm
content: Quote from: wilfred on May 05, 2013, 09:32:15 amThis is properly best addressed by an optical scientist. I am a mere physics guy and I only get to the Master degree level, I don’t even have a PhD – but, I did took some graduate level optical physics course and I was a professional photographer, so, until one come along, let me share my limited knowledge.First thing to understand is lens is like Op-Amps, an ideal lens does not exist. An ideal lens will be infinitely thin and focus light of all wave length to a single point. However photons have different waved lengths and will not cooperate. Even if you are to make an ideal lens, it will only be ideal under a unique condition just like a 1ohm 0.00000001% is only that under specific circumstances.So, optical scientists use all kinds of tricks to make it closer to ideal. Your 50mm lens is not a single lens but multiple lenses so that it appears as a single 50mm lens focusing as well as it can to asingle pointflat surface (Edit: it really is a single plane). Even multiple lenses cannot fully do the job – you can’t fight physics. Different wave length has different diffraction properties. Coatings of different properties are used to deal with interior reflection and diffraction.Quote from: wilfred on May 05, 2013, 09:32:15 amMagification and focal length (focus)Ok, that statement is accurate subjected to the definition of “magnification.” To be more precise,it isinverselyproportional to the “area of the image” and not “magnification.”You are correct about it getting dimmer, but working distance is not related in this case to magnification directly but indirectly.Your image size is a function of distance between image-to-lens (Di) and distance between object-to-lens (Do). For a lens with focal length=f, you have:The relationship between Di and Do is:1/f = 1/Di + 1/DoThesize ratio of your image is Di/DoThus:If Di/Do=1, your image is the same size as the objectIf Di/Do=2, your 1 meter ruler is 2 meters long (2x?) your 1 meter square poster is now 2 meters by 2 meters making it 4 meter-square (4x?)See the complication about using the term “magnification”.Macro lens is a lens of extremely short focal length so you can put an object very close to the lens so you have a very smallDo. A barrel extension sits between your lens and the image (CCD light collector or film) to extend yourDi.Microscopes typically have extremely smallDotypically mm or sub-mm. You have no working distance. You cannot stick a tooth pick between object and lens. Soldering microscope and other "manipulation required" microscopes are designed different (such as those giving you room to pierce an embryo to implant DNA into a cell nucleus).Those add-on magnifier on the other hand creates a closer virtual object so your lens focuses on the virtual object. It works by decreasingDovirtually - at a cost of upsetting the carefully balanced compound lens.(Late re-edit: I forgot a whole class of add-on adapters that goes between the removable lens and the camera body, those work on different principle. The above made it sound like it applies to all add-on adapters and it is not the case.... It could work by altering the combined lens' focal length there-by allowing you to actually come much closer (actually reducingDo) or creating a virtual lens with greater virtualDi... How it could work is limited only by the creativeness of the optical engineer.)Quote from: wilfred on May 05, 2013, 09:32:15 amAperture is defined as a ratio of diameter of lens opening and the focal length. The smaller the numeric number, the smaller the lens diameter in relation to focal length. The smaller the f-stop, the better the Depth of Field. (explained below: you really want lens with larger diameter which meanslargersmaller numeric f-stopnumber).late late re-edited: corrected typolargefstop to small-numeric-fstop to prevent confusion. Small numeric f-stop = Large lens diameter.Depth of Field is a range of distance where the image stays in focus. So, the larger the depth of field, the more tolerant it is. Consider this: the PCB surface which is farther by away by a thickness of the component- If the Depth of Field is greater than the thickness of the component, both the markings on the surface of the component and the PCB can be in focus at the same time.- If the Depth of Field is less than the thickness of the component, both the markings on the surface of the component and the PCB can not be in focus at the same time.Since paradoxically (funny place to use this term really), the smaller the aperture, the better the Depth of Field so you want set to a large numeric f-stop but you don't want a lens with a large numeric f-stop. You want one with a small numeric f-stop and set it to the larger value. (ie: use a fstop 1.8 lens for portrait but set fstop to 5.6 or more as an example).More light allows you to set the fstop number higher using more of the sweat spoton the lens while masking out the lesser parts - a big lens with a small openning.Reason: looking at the geometry, (easier with 2 dimensional trigonometries) the edge of the image is not the same distance to the lens as the center of the image. But your CCD/film is flat. If it iscurved into a partial sphereevery point on your CCD can be the same distance, but your CCD is not a partial sphere. So, your lens is a compound lens with different lenses (and coating) each assist in dealing with this effect or the side effect created by another lens-element within.While smaller larger f-stop (smaller opening of the aperture) gives you better Depth of Field, you want large lens for two reasons:1. The curvature of the lens is smaller so the edge effect is far less2. The larger diameter lens allows more light to get through.You cannot have 1&2 at the same time. You use a wide-diameter lens and set it to a smaller fstop to use “the center of the lens” where your curvature is smallest. A small diameter lens has much shaper curvature. The shaper the lens curvature, the worst the edge-effect and curvature increases much more as the diameter decreases. So with larger diameter, you use more of the sweat spot of the lens, and you have a choice of letting more light through so you can balance depth-of-field vs contrast vs color.Quote from: wilfred on May 05, 2013, 09:32:15 amYup, a “digital zoom” crops off the edge and map the center area to fill the full size. It does not affect depth of field.RickA few re-edits made to corrections to typos and hi-lights to make it easier to readThree significant re-editswith underlined or striked-out fonts which corrected the reversal. Corrected are: 1. single point/plane 2. missed the wordinverse3. useDiinstead of theDofor microscope.

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2013, 06:44:03 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on May 05, 2013, 09:32:59 amThe x16 is the lens they use. I am hoping they have barrels of different length so a different lens can fitted. Many fix-barrels are designed to be length-adjustable. The lens and mount is very manufacturer dependent but they seem to have the wide product knowledge.You don't have to go all the way to thousand dollar professional class lens. I think they may be able to guide you to a good combination for your needs.Rick

author: TheEPROM9
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2013, 03:26:35 pm
content: One thing I would suggest, is pulling lenses from old camcorders and cameras, the big front lens makes an excellent macro lens. I have done this with cameras before to get nice close ups. Might be worth trying to use these or build your own array, not sure what your knowledge is on optics but experimentation is always fun =-)

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 10, 2013, 01:50:37 am
content: Holy post batman!Technical post of the week from Rick

author: jmole
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 10, 2013, 05:12:25 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on May 10, 2013, 01:50:37 amIndeed. And a great argument for the DSLR/Video Camera approach. A microscope is great if you want to look at cells, but not so great if you want to see both the top AND the bottom of a 0402 component.Basically, you want tons of light, a small aperture, and a very sensitive photosensor. You're not going to get much better sensitivity than a consumer/prosumer DSLR (or the newBlackmagic pocket cinema camera), unless you spend a LOT of money.It's one of the main reasons I use a Panasonic GH2 for my video stuff. Small sensor gives good DOF, good 4/3s and micro 4/3s lens selection, and GREAT sensitivity. Shot a video of ourat ISOs of up to 12800

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 10, 2013, 05:03:05 pm
content: Quote from: jmole on May 10, 2013, 05:12:25 amThanks for the kind words. These kind words inspired me to go back and corrected a typo I noted but couldn't find it again when I went back to reedit last time...Yeah, a good macro with extension is hard to beat. There are however a few more factors to consider for Video application.1.The video encoder. A bad video encoder will eat up any sharpness and contrast you have in your image. Some video encoder are really bad. On a few occasions, I use the camcorder as pure frame-capturer to capture uncompressed frames via firewire to laptop, then I use software video encoder to with the control and quality I need to do the actual encoding.2. If you choose to get new equipment: When you go shopping, make sure you choose equipment withREAL aperture control. REAL aperture control means actually changing the aperture such as using a shutter a make the aperture smaller. Many video camcorders, many cheaper camera, and almost all cell-phone/i-Something camerassimulate a smaller aperture (larger f-stop) by making the exposure shorter. With those, you don't get the better benefit of Depth of Field or reduced edge effect. It is easier to shorten the timing of the capture digitally whereas reducing the aperture mechanically takes hardware and expense.Set the camera (camcorder) to manual exposure and look at/into the lens while you change the f-stop, you should see something like your iris in your eye making the lens aperture bigger/and smaller to adjust to the light. If you don't see a shutter moving to change the aperture, you need to check the manual and other documents/spec-sheets to check if the camera/camcorder is using a faster exposure to simulate a smaller aperture (large f-stop number) setting.Rick

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 10, 2013, 05:30:04 pm
content: One last little trivia. Lighting is always important - very very important. So important that what you see in a photo is not what it seems.Incandescent produce better spectrum than other lights like LED but it produce alot lot lotof heat. Photo of a slice of pie you see in a restaurant menu and many other display photos are not real because the item cannot stand up to the heat. A milk-shake will be unrecognizable in seconds under the intense light. Besides, by the time you arranged the french toast to be photographed, your french-toast will be sagging and the perfectly square piece of butter looks like hell. So, many of these "food" are crafted out of other material such as wax and and then painted to look like something you want to eat.With LED rapidly improving, perhaps cooler lights with better spectrum will fully replace photo-incandescent lights. But next time when you point at the picture in the menu and tell the waitress you want exactly that but with extra wiped cream... remember, it is just painted wax. That thought should help keep anyone keep his/her weight down...Rick

author: lgbeno
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 15, 2013, 01:44:00 am
content: Wrt lighting, nothing beats the fiber optic light ring with the light box, noisy, hot and VERY bright.