DER EE DE-5000 vs MESR-100 Accuracy - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: hgg
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 04, 2013, 02:30:46 pm
content: Hello,I have just received a brand new DER EE DE-500 LCR meter and I was comparing measurementswith the MESR-100 and the UNI-T UT61E.I got some crazy results. For example when measuring the ESR of a 0.1uF capacitor,the DE-5000 showed 5.08 Ohms and the MESR-100 24.4 Ohms! Both measurementswere taken with 100Khz. Which one is right ?DE-5000MESR-100The DE-5000 could not measure the ESR of some capacitors at all at 100Khz, like a3300uF, 470uF,330uF & 220uF. When I lowered the frequency to 100Hz it could measure them.The MESR-100 did not have any problems at all with any capacitor.The other thing is that the Uni-T was almost always closer to the written values on capacitors.For example below is a comparison between the DE-5000 and the UNI-T 61E:Capacitance DER EE DE-5000 UNI-T61E1500uF 1583 16702200uF 1940 2056470uF 390 415220uF 192 197330uF 301 32610uF 10 10.44.7uF 4.65 4.80.1uF 0.91 0.936pF 6 6The mighty UT61E compares really well with the dedicated ESR meter...The most striking result thought is the difference in the measurement of the ESR5 Ohms and 24 Ohms ! Can you really trust this meter? Do you think I might havereceived a lemon?Any other DE-5000 owner? Have you compared this meter with some reference valuesto check its accuracy?Anyway, I bought this meter only to measure inductance and it seems that the inductancemeasurements were close enough to the written values.I would be very interested to hear any other comments from DE-5000 owners.Thanks.

author: Wytnucls
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 04, 2013, 02:53:37 pm
content: Electrolytic capacitors should be measured at 100/120Hz. Compare ESR/D against the datasheet to confirm proper LCR meter function.

author: hgg
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 04, 2013, 04:11:50 pm
content: Hi,Actually the one I have from Panasonic is measured at 100Khz and I've seen others as well in thedata-sheets.Its a brand new Panasonic 150uF, 6.3V Electrolytic Capacitor.Data Sheet:http://docs-europe.electrocomponents.com/webdocs/0bec/0900766b80becf93.pdfThe ESR in the datasheet is 0.5 Ohms @ 100KhzAt 100Khz I measure 0.34 Ohms. 40% off...The funny thing is the measured capacitance at different frequencies.For the 150uF we have:100hz -> 141.5 uF1Khz -> 130 uF10Khz -> 104 uF and at100Khz -> 16 uF !Is this normal?(It looks like that capacitance should be measured at 100-120Hz and ESR at 100Khz.)

author: Wytnucls
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 04, 2013, 04:24:23 pm
content: Capacitance is usually measured at 120Hz, with a 20% tolerance.Tan d (or D on your LCR meter) is a better indication of the health of that capacitor.So you measured 141.5uF, which is well within the 20% tolerance of a 150uF cap.An ESR of 0.34 Ohm is probably correct, as it is close to the published max value of 0.5 Ohm.You should also get a D (dissipation factor) of less than 0.22 for that same cap, at 120Hz.

author: hgg
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 04, 2013, 04:44:11 pm
content: Ok,The Tan D in the datasheet is 0.22 max and its an upper value for a healthy capacitor.Its not an absolute value that I need in order to check the accuracy of the LCR meter.Anyway, in the auto LCR mode it defaults to Capacitance & 1Khz frequency and I geta TanD of 0.160, but in the datasheet TanD is measured at 120Hz.If I select Capacitance manually and set the frequency to 120Hz I get a Tan D of 0.047Does this mean that the capacitor is healthy with a Tan D way below the max limit?I still don't know how you can measure the capacitance accuracy of your LCR meter...

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 04, 2013, 04:50:37 pm
content: As you state, tan(D) (and ESR) are maximum values, so you'd expect the typical cap to be better than that, especially when new. So it sounds like that cap is fine.You can test the accuracy of your LCR meter by comparing it to another, more accurate, LCR meter or by measuring standard capacitors/inductors (expensive, I believe GR made same). Testing resistance accuracy is obviously trivial. You could also try adding low value series resistors to a cap, and observe the increase in ESR. For low capacitance values you could get some C0G ceramic caps, these have lower tolerances and less frequency dependence. Reasonably priced ones only go up to a few nF, however.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 04, 2013, 04:53:49 pm
content: Quote from: hgg on November 04, 2013, 04:11:50 pmDatasheet specifies max ESR, so nothing is off.

author: hgg
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 04, 2013, 05:05:29 pm
content: I've tried adding a small wire of 0.08 Ohms in series with the capacitor and the ESR increasedby 0.08 Ohms indeed, so it works ok but that is only a relative check.So in order to check the absolute accuracy you either need a very well calibrated meter(which by the way was calibrated how?) or the actual value that calibrated the accuratemeter... Chasing your tail... :-)There should be another way.

author: dfmischler
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 04, 2013, 05:20:12 pm
content: Quote from: hgg on November 04, 2013, 05:05:29 pmTry this:Measuring Capacitor ESRFYI - The MESR-100 specifications say it is for capacitors >= 1uF, and that the error will be larger on .1 uF.

author: mos6502
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 04, 2013, 05:38:10 pm
content: It's very easy to check how accurate the ESR measurement is. Take a cap, measure the ESR, then put a resistor (preferably metal film), put it in series with the capacitor, measure again. The second measurement should be equal to the first + the resistance of the resistor.I'm going out on a limb here, but seeing as the DE-5000 is actually a proper instrument, and the MESR-100 looks like it's been slapped together in a Chinese basement, I'd say the DE-5000 is the one that gives accurate readings here.The DE-5000's accuracy is given in the manual for all the ranges. What's the accuracy spec for the MESR-100? Oh, that's right, there is none. It's essentially just a random number generator.The DE-5000 has several frequency/capacitance ranges, like every other LCR meter. You can't measure large capacitances at high frequencies, because the impedance of the DUT would be too low and thus the resulting voltage would be too low to measure. And it would be pointless, as well. That's why capacitor datasheets specify the capacitanceat 120 Hzfor electrolytics or 1kHz for ceramics or film caps.Yes, the capacitance changes with frequencydepending on the type of cap. Electrolytics are extremely non linear. Try a a decent film cap, and you'll see that the capacitance will measure essentially the same from 100 Hz - 100 kHz.An electrolytic cap that has 2200uF printed on it really means "this cap has 2200uFat 120Hz". At any other frequency the capacitance will be different.In any case, measuring capacitance of electrolytics is a pointless exercise, because, they're usually specced at -20+80%. What does measuring the capacitance tell you?You can still measure the ESR of any DUT with the DE-5000. Simply switch to Rs mode. That will measure the real part of the impedance, i.e., ESR.As Wytnucls already explained, measuring ESR to check if a cap is good or not isn't very helpful. Measuring DF is much more informative. Measuring ESR can be useful when you're comparing different types of caps for a certain application. Measuring ESR is a crutch, it's just better than nothing if you don't have a proper LCR meter.So, the DE-5000 works fine and is very accurate. You just need to understand AC circuit theory better.

author: hgg
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 04, 2013, 06:33:50 pm
content: dfmischlerThank you for the link! I will try it out.mos6502Thank you for your detailed explanation. You might have a point about the MESR-100.It seems though that it is accurate. Resolution of 3 significant digits and repeatable measurements.That is why I am looking for a way to measure absolute value accuracy. Putting a resistor in serieswith the capacitor is measuring the relative accuracy and not the actual calibration.Apart from the ESR, I was also looking for a way to check the LCR meter absolute accuracy whilemeasuring capacitance.

author: DBoulanger
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 05, 2013, 08:34:17 pm
content: Hi there,For your information, I also acquired the same DER meter.Just for the fun of it, I did a simple RC circuit and evaluated the capacitance using a DSO. For 5 electrolytics caps, ranging from .1uf to 1000uf, the readings with the meter at the different frequencies were fairly close to the ones I estimated via the RC time constant.Yet, even with the scope, estimations were off at higher frequencies too, so that lead me to believe that the meter gave the proper reading.I don't want to conclude too quickly, so I will do other readings with some friends LCR meters or DMMs, just to have some sort of peace of mind.Will definitely get something interesting out of these readings.

author: The Electrician
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 06, 2013, 06:12:00 am
content: Quote from: hgg on November 04, 2013, 06:33:50 pmDon't forget that the measured capacitance of electrolytic caps especially, vary with measurement frequency. See reply # 36, 37, 38 and 39 in this thread:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/mastech-ms5308-lcr-meter-with-esr-measurement-on-discount-at-the-moment/msg107489/#msg107489

author: hgg
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 06, 2013, 08:31:40 pm
content: Hi,DBoulangerit looks that its doing a good job but the thing that made me question its accuracy in thebeginning, was that the UT61E gave measurement results that were closer to the component writtenvalues. Only at very high capacitance values the DE-5000 was more accurate than the Uni-T.Electrician, that's what I saw indeed, higher frequencies gave lower capacitance measurement result.

author: Samogon
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 22, 2016, 07:57:52 pm
content: Got my new DER EE DE-5000 and it is spot on measuring inductance and low volume capacitance <1?F and i a m happy with that.But as for electrolytics it measures less than marked value approx 20% which is in agreement of cap tolerances . While my Fluke 289 gives me exact marked values on all ranges fro 1?F to 5000?F. Lets me assume that this LCR is not good at electolytics.Since i am covered with both devices i am fine.But still small devil in my head asks: should i return it as faulty?Thank you

author: _Wim_
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 22, 2016, 08:29:56 pm
content: To measure a cap ESR, you can also do this with a function generator and an RMS multi-meter. Connect on leg of the cap to the output of the function gen (in 50 ohms output mode), the other leg to ground. Use a sine signal no higher then 100mv or so (at the frequency you want to test at), and connect the multimeter parallel to the cap to measure the voltage. We now have a 50 ohms resistor (output function gen) in series with the ESR of the cap => voltage divider network. As you know the voltage across the cap (Vcap) and the voltage of the source (Vs), the ERS can be calculated as follows:ESR = (Vcap * 50) / (Vs - Vcap)Edit: thanks rich, I indeed made a mistake when I wrote deducted the formula on paper. Now corrected

author: Samogon
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 22, 2016, 09:01:54 pm
content: Nice tip _Wim_, thank you will try that.But what about capacitance? Should i just ommit this option from LCR meter and use Fluke 289 for it? Or should i consider it failure and return device?

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 22, 2016, 09:13:44 pm
content: I am also happy with my DE-5000.One important point is how to measure ESR of polarized capacitors: The DE-5000 does not apply DC bias voltage to the device, which should affect its operation. I am working on the design of an adapter that can apply battery bias, stealing the design from the old GR digibridge, but my lab is temporarily shut down for remodeling.

author: rich
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 22, 2016, 09:38:54 pm
content: Quote from: _Wim_ on January 22, 2016, 08:29:56 pmreally? It may be I didn't picture circuit correctly but equation suggests when Vcap tends to 0, the ESR tends to -50 ?

author: _Wim_
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 23, 2016, 07:17:50 am
content: After some googling I found this one. He explains this alot better then I do:http://www.kerrywong.com/2015/11/23/esr-measurement-using-multimeter-and-function-generator/

author: _Wim_
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 23, 2016, 07:25:24 am
content: Quote from: rich on January 22, 2016, 09:38:54 pmThanks for pointing this out. I indeed made a mistake when I deducted the formula on a piece of paper. Best to follow the link I posted above, much more in depth discussion...

author: Hendry Born
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 05, 2016, 12:43:12 pm
content: Great tutorial!!Anyway I will go for the DE-5000

author: Chupacabras
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 11, 2016, 09:23:31 pm
content: Quote from: Samogon on January 22, 2016, 07:57:52 pmHi, I got my DER EE DE-5000 today, and I see the same problem. 2200uF electrolyte is measured as 1950uF, and 4700uF is measured as 4500uF (at 120Hz).When I measure those caps with UNI-T multimeters, they give me results very close to nominal values of those caps.So I am quite disappointed by this meter- Correction: I am not disappointed. Later posts explained that. There is nothing wrong with DER EE DE-5000

author: metrologist
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 11, 2016, 11:18:36 pm
content: We must get to the bottom of these erroneous measurements. Is there a calibration/zeroing sequence for the meter that was performed?

author: Electro Fan
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 12, 2016, 12:29:40 am
content: I measured some electrolytic capacitors with the DER EE DE-5000 and also a Fluke 179. The DER, using the TL-21, seemed to read about 6% lower than the Fluke. I did the calibration routines as shown on Pages 15-17 of the DER manual and the unit passed for both the open and short tests. I haven't done a bunch of testing (either before or after the calibration routine) but after the calibration routine I found that the gap narrowed a bit. For example, on a capacitor marked as 470uF I had a reading on the Fluke of 429uF (don't know at what frequency) and on the DER I had a reading of 418uF (at 100Hz).Ran another test with a ceramic capacitor. The Fluke says 108nF; the DER says 98nf at 100Hz, 94nF at 1kHz, and 89nF at 10kHz, and 77nF at 100kHZ.Without something else to compare to kind of hard to say....

author: The Electrician
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 12, 2016, 02:17:02 am
content: Quote from: Electro Fan on May 12, 2016, 12:29:40 amHave a look at this thread:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/about-capacitance-measurement-with-dvms/msg489690/#msg489690As can be seen in that thread, the measured capacitance of an electrolytic (and also high-k ceramics) varies depending on the frequency at which the measurement is made.DVMs don't measure capacitance in the same way as a proper LCR meter (which the DE-5000 is). It isn't even possible to speak of the "frequency" at which a Fluke or other DVM makes its capacitance measurement because it doesn't use a "frequency" (a sine wave in other words) to make the measurement.Manufacturers of electrolytic capacitors almost always measure the capacitance of their capacitors using a sine wave with a frequency of 120 Hz and an excitation of .5 VRMS. This means that the best way to measure the capacitance of an electrolytic is to use the same method as the manufacturers do: 120 Hz sine wave excitation; this method is most likely to give the same value as the manufacturers specify. Using a DVM is likely to give a value higher than would be obtained with the method used by the manufacturers, as I explain in the above thread.This thread goes into some detail about capacitor impedance:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/impedance-lcr-esr-meters/

author: Chupacabras
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 12, 2016, 06:35:21 am
content: Quote from: The Electrician on May 12, 2016, 02:17:02 amExcellent thread. Thanks. Perfectly made explanation.

author: Electro Fan
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 12, 2016, 10:36:50 pm
content: Likewise, thanks for the explanations and links.If anyone has any good/very basic tutorial on reactance (capacitance, inductance, etc. - especially with references to antenna design) that is strong on concepts and not too deep with math, especially something with good illustrations, video, etc please feel free to post any suggestions. Thx

author: Ray.B
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 04, 2017, 12:50:02 pm
content: Don't put a DC voltage bias on the DEE EE D-5000 meter, there is no input protection, and you would kill the poor thing. It is not designed to have DC on it's inputs, the Electrolylics Caps don't need a bias. The meter is not a DMM. If you put a bias on the inputs, "YOU ARE DOING SO AT YOUR OWN RISK". The input specifically says to discharge your Electrolylics Capacitors, you will brick your brand new meter, and there is NO WARRANTY. Later Ray.B

author: WhichEnt2
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 04, 2017, 01:22:40 pm
content: Quote from: Electro Fan on May 12, 2016, 10:36:50 pmDid you already checked the Keysight Technologies Impedance Measurement Handbook? But in don't contain anything about antenna stuff.http://literature.cdn.keysight.com/litweb/pdf/5950-3000.pdfQuote from: TimFox on January 22, 2016, 09:13:44 pmCan you please share your opinion for the Keysight 16065C External Bias Adapter schematic (attached)?I would like to make a dc bias adapter based on that schematic for my XJW-01 lcr-meter.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 04, 2017, 01:50:31 pm
content: If the Uni-T can be used to measure ESR in circuit, that is likely quite useful.For somebody who is interested in RF and tuned circuits, the DE-5000 fills in a need - because it measures low inductances accurately, which otherwise would cost much more to fill.As far as I know, its the best low cost instrument for measuring inductance. To get that capability in other hardware would cost a LOT more.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 04, 2017, 01:54:49 pm
content: Thanks for the tip..Quote from: _Wim_ on 2016-01-22, 15:29:56

author: HoracioDos
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 04, 2017, 04:08:12 pm
content: HiI found this video about the DE-5000 sometime ago when I was learning the basics about ESR meters. At 19:30 it shows how to measure an electrolytic capacitor correctly and compare the result againt a peaktech 3705 . Play the video at 1.25x or 1.50x speed.Hope this can help.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2017, 06:37:15 pm
content: That -hp- circuit looks very like the one I am designing, but haven't gotten around to building.I would use several polypropylene capacitors in parallel, instead of the two back-to-back electrolytics, since I have a large stock of them.I like the protection circuit on the bias voltage connection.