Fluke/Philips PM3394 options - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: BurnedResistor
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2015, 11:06:28 am
content: Hey all,This is my first time on this forum, so please forgive if I managed to overlook some obvious details/failed to find that this question has already been asked/Am posting in the wrong place!I am currently studying electronics, and through a friend of a friend of my parents (I live in a small town) I was able to purchase my first oscilloscope, a PM3394 200MHz Oscilloscope, 4 channels with both an analog and digital mode! It was unopened, in original packaging, and because I live in the rural area of a small country where getting your hands on cheap test equipment is rather difficult, it was a deal I could hardly pass up!The Oscilloscope passes the self-test, and I have not been able to find any flaws in the few days I have been using it. Overall I am very happy with it.However the waveform memory is fairly limited with 8k on one channel, or less if more channels are recorded. While reading the manual (http://exodus.poly.edu/~kurt/manuals/manuals/Fluke/FLUKE_PM33XXSeries_OM_66.pdf) I noticed that there are 3 options to this oscilloscope:A Math+ option which adds more math functions,A 32k option which adds more memoryand A IEEE-488.2 interface option.According to the self test, none of these are installed. I would only really have a use for the Math and of course the more memory function, as the RS232 interface is all I need. However, the manual provides very limited information on these upgrades. I do not know if they are hardware/software upgrades, here is all I was able to gather:The IEEE interface option is a factory installThere is a manual for the Math+ option separately, although I have not been able to find it.Now my question: Does anybody know anything about these upgrades? Where they factory installed or could they be purchased seperatly? Does anybody have the manual for math+? And most importantly, do I have any chance of getting these upgrades so long after the oscilloscope has been release?Thank you all for your help, and sorry again if I managed to screw something up!

author: Deathwish
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 21, 2015, 11:12:13 am
content: might helphttps://www.eevblog.com/forum/repair/pm3394-can't-communicate-with-ufo/

author: pascal_sweden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2015, 11:23:10 am
content: Quote from: BurnedResistor on August 21, 2015, 11:06:28 amDoes that friend of a friend of your parents have more of these scopes unopened in original packaging?Was that person a dealer of scopes?I am very interested in obtaining such an unobtainium scope in New Old Stock condition! =)You can send me a PM with all the details

author: BurnedResistor
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2015, 11:25:51 am
content: Thanks,the forum thread linked to the fluke manual search:http://www.fluke.com/fluke/m3en/support/manuals/default.htm"Math Plus" does not yield anything, and "Math+" is not a valid search term.Curiously the page does not list this oscilloscope on the list of products, even under the discontinued list. Was it known under another name as well?

author: sorenkir
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2015, 12:53:58 pm
content: I don't know if it applies to your version but :Googlefluke "math+" manualfor Math+ Manual (B versions)According to service manual for A versions (Googlepm3370a sm, take the 473 pages pdf), all options (M+, EM, GPIB) are "factory installed".Michel.

author: HighVoltage
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2015, 01:08:27 pm
content: I have many of these scopes and some of them came with all the options and some came with none.Plus there are more options than you have listed.All these options:- Math+- 32k- IEEE-488.2are factory installed and normally can not be added at a later time, unless you also have the new firmware.Is yours aPM3394or aPM3394Aor aPM3394B?Only the "B" version had all software issues solved and gives a stable RS232 connection to the FlukeView software to download all the traces and setups. The "B" version with the latest firmware is extremely stable.You are very lucky to have one original packed scope like this.I also still have one in an original box, never used with all accessories.

author: BurnedResistor
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2015, 01:40:58 pm
content: Quote from: HighVoltage on August 21, 2015, 01:08:27 pmThanks for the help!Is there an easy way to check which version I have?

author: HighVoltage
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2015, 02:00:05 pm
content: On the back of your scope there is a label with serial number and model type.Give us all this information and I can tell you what it is that you haveAlso, go to "Utility">"Maintenance"and write down what is says there.

author: HighVoltage
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2015, 02:19:32 pm
content: Here are some of my PM3394B scopes, as I use them on one of my benches.The second pictures shows the back of the scope.As you can see, the additional 5 BNC connectors are all optional.

author: pascal_sweden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2015, 02:57:40 pm
content: Do you need to use all scopes at once? For what scenarios? =)

author: BurnedResistor
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2015, 03:10:29 pm
content: Quote from: HighVoltage on August 21, 2015, 02:00:05 pm944403394001|100-240VNO DM592034|50-400Hz|130WI'm clear on what the volts/hertz/watts are. Im guessing the NO DM part has something to do with the factory options and the 944 is the serial number? Correct me If I am wrong!Quote from: HighVoltage on August 21, 2015, 02:00:05 pmI just wrapped up the scope for transport, as I live somewhere else, and have the rest of my electronics setup there! I wont be able to provide that info until the 3rd of September. Ill PM you if you still need it?Thanks for the help!

author: BurnedResistor
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2015, 03:12:23 pm
content: Also if I remember correctly (Like I said, it is wrapped up now) the thing labeled battery compartment on your diagram has with memory written on it - what's up with that? If memory is factory installed???

author: HighVoltage
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2015, 03:22:47 pm
content: Quote from: BurnedResistor on August 21, 2015, 03:12:23 pmThose are the 2 x AA batteries for the "backup memory" that stores all your settings.Has nothing to do with the upgrading of the internal memory

author: BurnedResistor
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2015, 03:32:18 pm
content: Quote from: HighVoltage on August 21, 2015, 03:22:47 pmI see, thanks!

author: BurnedResistor
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2015, 03:33:39 pm
content: Quote from: sorenkir on August 21, 2015, 12:53:58 pmWhile I was doing the check before packing it back up for shipping to my lab, i checked the utility/maintenance and it said? "no options installed"

author: HighVoltage
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2015, 03:40:27 pm
content: Quote from: BurnedResistor on August 21, 2015, 03:33:39 pmWhat software version is installed?

author: BurnedResistor
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2015, 04:02:32 pm
content: I didn't think to write that down, and now its packed, like I said!

author: pascal_sweden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2015, 06:12:12 pm
content: So the friend of a friend of your parents did not have any more new units in stock?

author: egonotto
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2015, 07:58:52 pm
content: Hello,I have a question.If one has the option Y-OUT, one can connect the Y-Out to another input and got 200uV/Div. If one do so, how much is the noise.Is this reasonable to get a sensitive input?Best Regardsegonotto

author: grumpydoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 29, 2015, 11:08:17 pm
content: Apologies, I only just noticed this thread.Quote from: HighVoltageThere are also Y out, Ext Trig, MTB gate out and DTB gate out - the connectors on the back panel.Ext Trig and Y out require extra hardware in the form of small daughter boards that attach to the main A1 analogue board. The circuit diagram and even the component layout for these boards are in the service manual but you would have to replicate the PCB yourself (or find a 'scope with them in and copy). I do not think that would be feasible.The timebase gate outputs are already present on connectors on the motherboard so just need connecting to a BNC on the rear panel.QuoteI would be slightly surprised if the GPIB and 32k options needed different firmware. Even if it does it would not be too difficult to copy the firmware from another 'scope for the original series and the "A" series 'scopes as they have socketed DIP flash chips. The "B" series would be harder as they have SMD flash soldered to the board.Adding the hardware for GPIB would involve installing a P8291A GPIB controller and 8 x 3448 transceivers plus a couple of other bits and passives. Would it be worth it even if the CPU recognises it and can make use of it - probably not.Adding the hardware for the extended memory option involves at least swapping the CY7C128 static RAM chips which make up the fast acquisition memory and installing CY7C185's in their place and putting 628128 SRAMs in place of the 62256 SRAMs in the main acquisition memory, plus changing some resistor positions. Is it worth it? - probably not without the Math+ package installed, however, as I have a 'scope with Math+ who's A8 board has extended memory but dead channel 2+4, I might well be attempting just this upgrade on a good but standard memory A8 board.The Math+ option might well be a different firmware package or an extra chunk of firmware. There was a PC program to do firmware upgrades but so far I haven't found a copy.

author: HighVoltage
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 30, 2015, 01:31:09 am
content: Thanks for your infoAre you sure about a software for firmware upgrades?I have never heard of this before.The options for these scope were really expensive in those days, when the scope was new on the market and almost no buyer selected all options.But a few years ago I came across a guy that had bought many of these scopes from a government surplus.And all of them had all options installed.Luckily I was able to get some of these scopes with all options and the latest FW.May be I should open one and take some tear down pictures?

author: grumpydoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 30, 2015, 07:55:40 am
content: Quote from: HighVoltage on November 30, 2015, 01:31:09 amA PC program capable of updating the firmware is mentioned in a few places on the 'net (and, I think, in the Philips documentation) but I have no idea whether it was ever released into the wild or whether it was ever possible to upgrade firmware in the field.Edit:QuotePhotos are always welcomeI've just bought over 140 NOS CY7C185-25's for $0.99, even with the postage it's working out just over £0.11 each and although I can't find new HM628128LFP-7T's I picked up some new 45ns 128kx8-bit SRAMs from Farnell at just under £2 each.So the memory upgrade, if it is possible, will cost me just less than £5

author: grumpydoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 30, 2015, 11:40:18 pm
content: On the subject of firmware for these 'scopes:As I am waiting for Farnell to deliver some bits for the PSUs I though I would dump the flash contents of the CPU board which is lying around on the bench - this is the CPU from the 3394. The firmware is 384kB long contained in a 28F020 and a 28F010 chip - the board will take two 28F020's for a max of 512kB of code, it probably includes the DSP firmware (haven't confirmed that yet) which will be < 64kB long (as the DSP only has 64k of program RAM).Just looking at the embedded strings throws up a couple of observations.The copyright is shown as "(c) N.V. PHILIPS Gloeilampenfabrieken 1989"The model number 3394 is present in the image as you might expect but other model numbers are not which suggests that there were different firmware versions for each model in the series. That actually surprises me slightly.I'm not sure about GPIB - the string "IEEE" crops up as does "REMOTE" but not the string "ADDRESS" which is displayed on the screen while configuring the remote address.Options for sample buffer length for both the standard and extended memory are present so that would appear to be auto detected.The image also contains strings which pertain to the Math+ option - which is odd because Ithoughtthat the 'scope it came out of did not have Math+ enabled - I could have been wrong about that so will check once the PSU is sorted and I can try the two CPU cards (the 3394 & 3394B) in the 'scope.The firmware ROMs are bank switched at 32k boundaries which is very obvious when you look at the image. Sadly I won't be able to grab the 3394B image as ithe flash is soldered in. The service manual for the 3394A also suggests the flash chips are soldered in SMD devices. I'll crack the case of the 3394A and have a look but it has mostly "just worked" so I haven't been paying it too much attentionThe A&B series have a max of 1M of flash (although the 3394B CPU card has 3x 28F020 AFAICS).Anyone got an 80C196 disassembler??

author: grumpydoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2015, 11:28:06 pm
content: I stumbled upon something mildly interesting when looking at what you might need to do to upgrade the DSO portion of the 'scope to "extended memory"As far as the DSO hardware is concerned there are three RAM blocksFirst we have the DSP program memory or "PRAM" - this is 32k words of 16 bit memory attached to the DSP. There isn't an option to increase this memory. Originally I thought the DSP was a mask programmed part but it actually looks as though it is not - the MP/M?C? pin of the 320C25 is held high so only external program code space is used. I presume that the CPU does have access via the bus arbitration chip and writes the DSP code to this memory.Then we have the "Main Acquisition Memory" or MAM, this is also 16 bits wide consisting of either two 62256 SRAMS or two 628128 SRAMS for either 32k words or 128k words of 16-bit memory.Finally we have the "Fast Acquisition Memory" or FAM, this is either 8 2k x 8 SRAMS or 8 8k x 8 SRAMS, physically this memory is 64 bits wide - presumably so as not to need RAM with a less than 10ns cycle time.All well and good.The interesting thing is that the hardware has the (undocumented) option of using 32k x 8 SRAMS in the fast acquisition memory, CY7C199's would probably be suitable. The board is laid out for 24 or 28 pin RAMS and has a couple of jumper locations to handle the slight pin-out differences. There is an unused position marked "32K" which routes one of the address lines to pin 26 rather than VCC (needed for the CY7C128 or CY7C185's) so 32k x 8 SRAMS should work giving 256k of FAM.From the flash contents it even looks as though the firmware might be able to recognise the extra RAM as it canreport256k of FAM - sadly it does not look as though it can use it which is a pity as the maximum record length of 32k samples (and that only for one channel dropping to 8k for all 4 channels) is a bit small otherwise.I must admit I can't quite reconcile the RAM blocks with the manual which says acquisition memory is either 8k or 32k - I think that they are talking about FAM although the extended memory option upgrades both the fast and main acquisition memory sizes, but why not 16 or 64k which is what is actually inthe 'scope. Maybe it is something to do with the interleaving to get the 200Ms/s out of the two 100Ms/s ADC's?