eevBLAB 97- Is Apple Serious About Right To Repair? (The Verge) - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 23, 2022, 06:38:51 am
content: The Verge just took Apple to task over their new authorised repair tools and manuals and parts as part of Right to Repair. Are they giving Apple a fair suck of the sav?

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2022, 07:33:45 am
content: This whole thing is just malicious compliance. Nobody wanted that. All we need is for the non-apple service centers to be able to repair the phones.iPad Rehab did a comprehensive overview of this kit. One of the biggest gotchas there is that after you replace the screen you have to agree to a EULA stating that you allow apple to get all your data from the phone. And if you don't like that, you are stuck.But yes, the price of the equipment is actually surprisingly low.

author: sleemanj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2022, 07:52:51 am
content: High time that user-replacable batteries were mandatory in phones, you should need no tools except a screwdriver at most. Having to go through all that extreme disassembly just to replace a cell, madness.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 23, 2022, 11:33:58 pm
content: Quote from: ataradov on May 23, 2022, 07:33:45 amI agree wiht the last part.I wouldn't call releasing your repair manuals and selling your in-house repair jigs at very low prices "malicious compliance" though. It's simply not enough, and as you say not really want people wanted.

author: firewalker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2022, 01:43:42 pm
content: Does Apple ship outside USA. E.g. EU.Alexander.

author: PKTKS
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2022, 02:19:41 pm
content: Answering the question:YES Apple is not serious.THIS IS a muckPaul

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2022, 10:20:28 pm
content: True malicious compliance would be pricing it so high no one uses the service ($500 battery).I disagree slightly when people say "but if we had the schematics". To repair a phone, schematics are near useless. Access to the parts, proprietary charge ICs, and reflashing software is far more valuable.I think if Apple can add more parts (Rossman noted the charge port was not for sale) at reasonable prices, and not immediately discontinue them when they release a new phone, its a fair effort.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2022, 10:40:35 pm
content: The rental thing is priced exactly as the cost of service in the Apple authorized center. Who in their right mind would ship around multiple pelican cases to perform the repair just to break even with the service center? This is a nonsense offer to humor the journalists. The part where they sell the same equipment is fine.But the bigger issue is availability of the components. As it is right now this program has a very limited usability. We'll see if it gets better.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 24, 2022, 10:48:59 pm
content: Quote from: ataradov on May 24, 2022, 10:40:35 pmHardly anyone wants the ability to repair the product themselves. What they do want is the option to go to their local service place and have them fix it at a reasonable price.The problem is that Joe Public does not have visibility of the actual issues like schematics, parts availability, and component serialisation that plauge the industry.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2022, 10:54:53 pm
content: This isn't malicious compliance. You can still buy the parts from them and use whatever tools you want.The tools are offered because it's quite difficult to build a device with the required sealing and robustness and repair it properly. Joe random down the local market will be able to replace the screen on your phone but you don't know what screen you're getting and if it's going to be installed correctly. Next time you're out in the rain your iPhone drops dead because of water ingress, what are you going to do?My 13 pro goes out hiking with me. It is used in very heavy rain as a mapping device constantly to the point the case is actually full of water for 4-5 hours. I wouldn't risk a 3rd party repair on it.From an internal source I know they have been working on this for nearly 3 years quietly so the intent is there but it's a complicated problem to solve. Macs are coming next. The new macs are quite repairable (tear tags for batteries, fully replaceable ports on daughterboards etc). I know people complain about the RAM and SSD being soldered but they don't work even remotely the same way as PCs so you need to change your expectations on what parts should be replaceable.As for if my daughter or me break our iPhones, Apple will send a new one out for next day and you pop the old one in the box and send it back. That's as much of a crap I give about this, and that is more than most, and I love to repair things. A recent discussion in the pub about right to repair was met with glazed eyes from most people. 99% of people don't upgrade anything and don't care and they drive the market.

author: eti
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2022, 02:50:12 am
content: Quote from: bd139 on May 24, 2022, 10:54:53 pmThis.is probably the only sensible, sane and balanced reply this thread will see. Print it out and frame it, before it gets lost in a sea of ignorant "offended" hogwash.

author: eti
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2022, 05:54:55 am
content: All the internet sheep have learnt a new phrase, and are now parroting it all over the place... how easy people are to brainwash, it's comical, so here's a comic:

author: kripton2035
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2022, 06:39:25 am
content: Quote from: firewalker on May 24, 2022, 01:43:42 pmnot for now.

author: AndyBeez
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2022, 02:13:22 pm
content: Reality check, these repair tools are not for the casual user. These are professional tools for use by trained technicians who do change outs (and parts validations) every day.Even tech head readers of the EEVblog will be minded just how easily they could mangle a phone using these lumps. More so than joe public who thinks all you need to work in a genius bar is a bright smile and the ability to say "sick" every other word.Imagine if GM did a R2R fix your clutch at home service? Imagine the size of the flight cases that would arrive? Place vehicle in trolley jack assembly and set timer to 30 seconds, then remove engine using special hydraulic pry tool....This will die a death, along with many servicable phones. Then the litigation will begin; you said I could replace my battery?! Eventually the tool sets will end up in the hands of mobile repair stores who have the time and experience to leverage them correctly. Which how R2R is meant to be.

author: golden_labels
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2022, 02:46:37 pm
content: I side with Dave here. The tools are meant for to be used by repair shops and for that purpose the pricing is reasonable. This does break a part of Apple’s monopoly, so it’s also a step towards the goal.What worries me is that it also feels like Apple’s attempt to employ “if you can’t beat it, take it over”. They can no longer hold their position. So a sane decision is to embrace the right to repair idea and make sure the company keeps control over as much aspects of it as possible.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2022, 03:35:27 pm
content: Repair shops will not rent pelican cases every time they need to fix a phone. This makes no sense at all. The pricing to buy the tools is very good, I agree here.But the whole idea of renting and shipping a kit at the same cost as a repair in the authorized center is just dumb.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2022, 03:39:51 pm
content: I think the reason they rent the tools out is to stop people complaining about how expensive the tools are because it's not even a discussion point now. If they turned up on the market with just the service manuals, parts and service tools which could only be bought then everyone would be waving their arms around complaining.Your second point nails it. Pay an authorized repairer to do the same job. If they balls it up, it's on them to make it good, not you.

author: eti
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2022, 04:07:23 am
content: It’s comical to see all these “Apple expert YouTubers” (what even does that mean?) suddenly appear to be VERY VERY much out of their depth with regard to basic electronic module swapping (it’s not engineering!)Anyone can be an “unboxing” expert, and parrot specs - there’s a billion channels that all RACE to be the first to upload what is, essentially, a wholly unnecessary copycat video that their peers made on the same subject, with little or nothing extra to add. Its one thing to do the aforementioned and it takes little skill, apart from editing and camera shots (which anyone can do tbh), it’s another to be balanced of mind, fair (as Dave was in his video; yes I mean that, and I don’t kiss ass to anyone) and competent with years of experience in knowing why custom assemblies and jigs are needed and why each of them is designed to execute a certain step reliably, uniformly and with the knowledge that the processed output repair unit will be a known quantity with regard to uniformity of repair and repeatability of said process, once muscle memory, refinement of workflow and time & motion have been optimised.Quinn of “Snazzy Labs” seems to be the most sane and balanced reviewer of this process and tools.Any old chap can, and does, use a spudger and a hairdryer to effect these repairs. Personally I’d either do this myself to an older iPhone (and have), knowing that my repair wasn’t “to spec” but accepting that it’s not perfect, but if I had a new (1-3 yrs) device, I ain’t never gonna do anything except send it to Apple; life’s short and my time more precious than £££. Having been a repair assistant for pre-smartphone phones in the early 2ks, and having done my own repairs back before then, and seeing what happens in “professional” shops… erm no thanks, I’ll send it to Apple or sell it for parts.If it’s gonna cost me too much, I’ll sell it for parts (if I had new iPhone, which I don’t; I see no extra value over the FREE iPhone 8 a kind friend gave me) and get on with my life.Let’s remember, it’s just a phone. That’s ALL it is. Yeah it can do a lot of “things”, but so can a 5 yr old model, and the rest is spoilt brat territory.If I owned an Apple repair shop, I’d certainly invest in these tools. Having a reputation of doing and live-streaming repairs using OFFICIAL Apple made and supplied repair tools, is going to help your business no end. Knowing I’m doing something according to recommended practice, in all aspects of the work, boosts my confidence and speed with which I get the job out of the door, KNOWING IN MY CONSCIENCE that I’ve not bodged it or taken shortcuts because I’m too skinflint to invest in proper kit for the job.

author: eti
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2022, 05:26:22 am
content: I think that Apple should supply an Unpopulated logic board, Solder paste, stencils, reflow oven, all components, separate screws in bags, rest the components all in bags, Instructions and a scheme like this, under the title “build your own iPhone for 30% of The price of a retail unit“People would still complain, that’s all they know how to do

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 26, 2022, 06:41:57 am
content: Quote from: ataradov on May 25, 2022, 03:35:27 pmObviously Apple wanted to shut a certain subset of people by at least offering the rental service and absorbing the shipping cost. Seems to have backfired with the Verge article, as they complained it was silly.There is actually a use case for renting it IF you didn't have give apple access to your phone to finish the job, and that reason is data security.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2022, 06:55:14 am
content: But you have to give them access, which renders the whole thing plain stupid.And I also don''t buy that "it is hard to ship things" and "it took us years to prepare this". They are constantly being praised as having the best logistics ever selling billions of devices every year. And they could not figure out how to ship a few spare parts? Yeah, right. Talk to Mouser if you can't handle shipping parts worldwide, they seem to have no issues doing that.But hey, apparently it worked on enough people to keep defending apple.

author: eti
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2022, 08:34:05 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on May 26, 2022, 06:41:57 amYes of course. Why this out of band (via phone call and not downloading an app or client) binding of all the serials of the parts approved and supplied & tracked for the repair is kept out of band, by making people call up, is obvious to those who understand Apples chain of trust etc - their ENTIRE OS is based on security. Apples reputation is not to cave into even law enforcement requests for data. Their reputation is trust, and trust comes crashing down to a meaningless pile of rubble when you undermine it for the sake of kowtowing to bribes and pressure.The very tool that verifies the repair, signs it off and marries all the parts together (“binding”) needs to be ONLY accessible my apple. Imagine the chaos if a user hacked and patched it, allowing it to bind serials of parts of dubious provenance (Huawei ring a bell?) - this could quickly unravel Apples entire chain of trust, ergo reputation.So many people just want convenience, and fail to grasp why this is similar to why Apple devices ask one to sign in SO frequently..: VERIFICATION!Certain actions on iOS devices require me to verify my Mac password AND the iPhone PIN for a randomly selected device I own, before proceeding. Apple are far smarter than all these folks who’ve not taken the time to see the overall picture.

author: eti
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2022, 08:57:47 am
content: Quote from: ataradov on May 26, 2022, 06:55:14 amDo some reading on Apple supply chain prowess… it’s the stuff of legend. Then again if it doesn’t suit your agenda, never mind.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2022, 09:02:43 am
content: Quote from: ataradov on May 26, 2022, 06:55:14 amWell Mouser are having some serious supply chain problems at the moment. There are 40 week lead times on two things I need and they are not really that uncommon. I had to buy off a reputable UK ebay seller in the end (yitry / Langrex).Another comparison now is Lenovo who already operate a global supply chain business. They did not have parts supply for two on-site service events recently I was dealing with. That was one replacement battery and one replacement screen under next business day warranty. And you can't actually order replacement machines without a 2 month lead time either. I can go in an Apple store and walk out same day with a macbook or get one repaired fineGlobal supply chain around Covid is hell so I think you need to consider that in the picture. It probably would have been delivered quicker without that situation.But to note it was delivered when they said it would be, as it always is with Apple, and it worked out of the box...

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2022, 09:52:50 am
content: Apple is just trying to sooth politicians to prevent more or more stringent right-to-repair laws. Yes, they give you a fancy tool box, a few spare parts and a manual. But this is all and very limited. They don't sell a specific connector or IC. It's still the same old Apple way to control everything to maximize profit. Car analogy: Oh, your generator is broken. You can get this replacement motor block plus a cool tool kit for DIY. Or a licensed garage could repair it for an all-inclusive price about the same as a complete motor block. But we won't sell the generator, neither to you nor to your independent garage.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2022, 10:15:00 am
content: The car analogy is stupid and needs to go away. Cars are mostly made of very large and simple parts. High tech items are made of very small and very complicated parts. Some bits of cars are made of very small and very complicated parts. The mechanic just replaces those too. At no point do they replace a specific connector or IC. This is bias because you know how to are or interested in it. Most mechanics and end users don't care; they want the device returned to original condition for a known price.Fundamentally right to repair is a stupid idea if you ask me. It doesn't really help the end user who just wants their device repaired. All it does is allow some loud repair businesses to carry on operating in rapidly declining market situations. I've said this a thousand times before but it should go away and be replaced by actual meaningful legislation that does the following:1. Mandates a reasonable lifetime for all goods.2. Mandates fitness for purpose of the goods for the entire lifetime.3. Mandates service and support for hardware and software during that time with realistic constraints on repair costs and turnaround.4. Mandates proportional buy back for used devices which do not meet the above standards.5. Mandates that the manufacturer has to buy the item back from the user at the end of life for material value and recycling.That's what the end user wants: to protect their investment.What is worse is what I call "repair poverty". When someone buys a bottom end device, be it a washing machine or smart phone, they are basically sold junk with a known lifetime from the manufacturer. The end game is the repair involves buying a new device or a large proportional cost of the device for a completely unsupported repair. They can't afford that scenario. That is how most of the people on this planet run their lives.The legislation changes I propose eliminates that. Right to repair does not. In fact it allows manufacturers to ship a 1y warranty and then shirk the responsibility for the device onto the very variable quality repair market.

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2022, 10:29:28 am
content: Quote from: bd139 on May 26, 2022, 10:15:00 amOver here there are repair shops specialized in repairing ECUs. Your mechanic can simply buy a new ECU from the car manufacturer for 1k bucks or get it fixed by the ECU repair shop for 300 bucks. Do you prefer to pay 1k or just 300?

author: eti
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2022, 10:31:38 am
content: Do ECUs contain very personal and sensitive data? You folks are dummies. Wake up and change your analogies.

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2022, 10:37:41 am
content: They do (modern ones), unfortunately.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2022, 10:52:04 am
content: Quote from: madires on May 26, 2022, 10:29:28 amUsing proportional values, I know someone who paid the 300 bucks and it failed again after 3 months. The answer was to pay another 300 bucks or pay the 1000 bucks. YMMV on repairs, which is the point. Better to replace and cover that with insurance.But realistically, my car is still under extended warranty so this is a non issue for me. It's basically AppleCare for your car

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2022, 11:31:22 am
content: Regarding the 'privacy' and 'data protection' arguments:Quote from: ataradov on May 23, 2022, 07:33:45 amOoopsi! No privacy for you!

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2022, 11:37:59 am
content: I’d like to see the EULA terms for that before I take information third or fourth hand.Secondarily I know they have my data. I’m paying for them to host my email, calendars, tasks, files.

author: AndyBeez
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2022, 12:24:34 pm
content: To me the issue with iphones and ipads isThe screen digitiser is made of glassThe battery has a finite service lifeAccess to the internal parts is destructiveAfter a few years of IOS updates repairing is a pointless exerciseThe inconvenient truth is high tech consumer hardware is already beyond economic repairbeforeit develops a fault. Business and industrial level hardware has a service level built into the costings. So if you're buying a combine harvester, you can expectallof the parts to be held in a warehouse somewhere. Which is why combine harvesters cost so much.For high street consumers though, there is only the chance to extend a warantee period. Which is a value added cash cow for the retail chain. All that gets fixed for consumers, is the price. There is no actual chance of their defective device being repaired in a fully equipped service center because that's justuneconomic. They'll either get a new one or, their deflated money back.For high street consumer level products, R2R should be less about what service centers need to do their jobs (schematics, parts, tools, certifications, skillsets) and more about managingconsumer expectations.High street consumers who spend large amounts of their income on devices will not be willing to accept that, should they need it, the products they own are irrepairableby default. Their car can be fixed. Their boiler can be fixed. Even their left knee joint can be fixed. So why is their tablet device as disposable as an e-cig?Fundemental to solving the R2R debate might be a closer consideration of the relationship between producer and consumer. From a marketing perspective, this needs to be less opaque and more re-cyclic? Consumers are more likley to accept planned obsolescence if, they know what happens when their products have reached end-of-life - even prematurely by dropping into the ocean. But then this gets into the minefield of who owns your phone? Cue Louis Rossmann...Should R2R be the right to repair andrecycle?

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2022, 01:38:54 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on May 26, 2022, 10:15:00 amI like your five mandates, but the "right to repair" still makes a degree of sense, especially for older stuff that is being kept alive beyond the design life (which is also a right that people expect to have). E.g. if you have an old Ford, it would be unafFordable to take it to the local dealership for all needed repairs, whereas independent garages make it viable.

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2022, 02:24:02 pm
content: Quote from: AndyBeez on May 26, 2022, 12:24:34 pmPossibly! We have to shift from disposable e-junk to sustainable products as our resources are limited. There is no other viable way. Back to Apple. They are also trying hard to prevent broken/old devices to be recycled, more specificly, preventing parts to be reused as spares. The recyclers Apple hired have to shredder everything. It's not just Apple, but they are leading the whole pack in ruining our future for a few bucks more profit.

author: AndyBeez
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2022, 02:24:08 pm
content: Consumer R2R is niche because consumer devices are reliable. Contrast a 1980s CRT TV with a 2020 Oled TV. This is why the backstreet TV repair stores went extinct. Not due to a lack of schematics but, because TVs just stopped blowing up. Back in the day we never owned a crt TV, we always rented as (frequent) repair was included in the contract. Now if a TV fails, we ask Siri to find the cheapest deal. When someone invents break proof graphene glass, most mobile repair stores will be unsustainable.Meanwhile, the age of the SMD has driven factory costs and retail prices down. Just means you need a diploma in micro soldering to affect repairs or hacks. It's no longer a time when you can fix a through hole PCB with a BC108 and a reel of 60/40. You need specialist hardware. And need to charge out accordingly.I don't think there ever was a natural right to repair. It was just that the technology was at a level of simplicity that we could repair it. Even VCRs were big enough to attack with a desolder pump. I learned electronics in the back of TV sets and tearing down transistor radios. I pity the newbies pulling apart their iphones.Thought. Is R2R only hardware or should it extend to firmware and software?

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2022, 02:40:46 pm
content: In my experience CRT TVs from the late 80ies / early 90ies last 20+ years. TFT/OLED TVs don't come even close (mainly the dreaded low-ESR electrolytics).Quote from: AndyBeez on May 26, 2022, 02:24:08 pmOr at least allow to install an alternative firmware (plus necessary documentation to make this happen). The result should be a working device, i.e. working hardware and firmware (security fixes!). For example, many Android phones are already e-junk when leaving the factory because they will never see any OS updates (simply not provided by the manufacturer).

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2022, 03:59:02 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on May 26, 2022, 11:37:59 amHere is the most offensive part of this EULA. I can't find the same text published anywhere, so you have no way of reading it prior to being presented with an Agree button with your phone half dead.

author: AndyBeez
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2022, 04:36:49 pm
content: Quote from: madires on May 26, 2022, 02:40:46 pmI have 3 Android tablets that are e-waist because they will never go higher than Kitkat. They all have great cameras, hidef displays, fast ac wifi, accurate GPS and batteries with low wear. But the OS and apps are no longer supported. No rooting either as there is no 'ROM' to patch. Android 10 devices are e-junkies too. The net result is, I will not buy Android devices as they are unfit to upgrade. Add to R2R the right to reuse/repurpose.

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2022, 05:03:46 pm
content: If you're lucky one of your tablets might be supported by LinageOS (https://lineageos.org/).

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2022, 05:43:57 pm
content: Quote from: AndyBeez on May 26, 2022, 04:36:49 pmI have an old Android tablet in my car, stuck on Android 4.2 or something like that. I use it to run a car diagnostic app... I like the big screen.Every couple of months or so, I get a pop-up "Application not owned". At that point, I have to take the tablet into the house, let it hook up to WiFi, and talk with the mother ship. Then it's OK for another few months.I emailed the author of the app. He said, the terms and conditions that developers sign with Google requires all these things to be in place. It is also the reason he cannot provide any updates for the app on the old OS - not that he doesn't want to, but Google requires him not to!So, there is a whiff of "managed obsolescence" in the air with Android. I'm sure they're all doing it - after all, they are entitled to a share of your paycheck every month, by birthright!

author: AndyBeez
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2022, 08:53:16 pm
content: Quote from: madires on May 26, 2022, 05:03:46 pmThank you for that. Sadly my hardware is too oldQuote from: SilverSolder on May 26, 2022, 05:43:57 pmMaybe someone should remind Google of their "do no evil" slogan. There is a lot of mint tech sitting in draws cold and dark because the apps for the OS version no longer exist in the PlayStore. On the R2R theme, replacing a Samsung battery requires a £1 pry tool, not a 1000 pound set of luggage. So yes, I can fix my tablet but no, the Android apps won't install.Quote from: bd139 on May 26, 2022, 10:15:00 amI totally agree. Consider where the motivation for Right to Repair originates. It's from theMa & Pafixuns stores in the USA. They want access to schematics and components to run their fixuns businesses because the big bad corporates think their products are unfixable shite. Their motivation is not necessarily about consumer rights or saving the environment, it's about staying in the black without having to rely on the grey market for parts.Is there a divergence between what might be called the American interpretation of R2R and the European one? Your 5 mandates make perfect sense, to a European, but are they in phase with the USA? I'm sure if voiced in Congress your mandates would meet a firewall of corporate lawyers and lobbyists, all out to protect their pay masters fromsocialist bureaucracy. But then we do know what happens when the European Union gets it's sticky fingers on a good idea...The R2R path should be the rights to repair, reuse and recycle.What do Aussies think in their brave new post ScoMo era?

author: eti
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2022, 09:20:21 pm
content: Quote from: ataradov on May 23, 2022, 07:33:45 amALLyour data? I truly doubt that; do you think the phone agents care, or have time to do so? EVEN IF TRUE, they're Apple - would you prefer some back street shop get it... or RUSSIANS?Maybe you'd prefer a crappy Android phone, where any combination of Google and/or some random Chinese spyware vendor can see LITERALLY ALL your stuff, ALL THE TIME. The willfuly ignorant, misinformed vocal majority are very loud, ain't they!

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2022, 08:25:45 pm
content: Quote from: kripton2035 on May 25, 2022, 06:39:25 amThis is what makes it "malicious compliance" for me. They're only doing this in selected countries to try to avert the passing of any laws that might have teeth.Europe is already passing laws to force them to use USB-C connectors so they know Europeans aren't going to take much notice of a campaign to make it semi-easier to repair.Broken screens are one thing, battery replacement is another. There's no reason at all the battery shouldn't slip out of an end cap that's held on with a single screw. They can make it tamper-evident if they want to and void the warranty if you use a third party battery, no problem there.All the phones I've replaced lately have been because the battery is losing charge capacity, not because they're broken or need replacing.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2022, 08:39:05 pm
content: Opinion vs reality...They're not doing this in selected countries. It's a global rollout. They are doing it in the largest market first. It's coming to the UK soon and we don't actually have any laws about it.As for USB-C, they have had USB-C on a lot of devices for a long time. My iPad Pro, MacBook Pro, all my Apple chargers are all USB-C and have been for about 3-4 years. My Apple monitor is USB-C and charges the laptop or iPad! It has a USB-C and Thunderbolt hub. Even my watch is USB-C!The only thing that isn't USB-C yet is the phones and that is coming with the next generation. The current phones all ship with a USB-C to Lightning cable as well.As for batteries, the things are IP sealed (phones that is). I remember having a "waterproof" android phone that died because it got wet. YMMV there.I just got the battery on my 2015 iPhone 6s to give to my youngest daughter. It was done in an Apple Store while I was eating lunch. £49. Sorted. If they break it during the repair they give you a new phone.Haters gonna hate...

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2022, 08:59:38 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on May 24, 2022, 10:54:53 pmI know nothing at all about their proprietary SSDs, but could you illuminate us as to how an Intel memory controller using industry standard DDR3 or DDR4 is orshould beany different just because it's in their shiny case?M1s are LPDDR4X or LPDDR5 (pro/max/ultra/supercalifragilisticexpealidocious*) and at least in the case of the original M1 they're SiP, so fair enough there.*Blow me I spelt that right on the first try

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2022, 09:13:40 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on May 27, 2022, 08:59:38 pmCongratulations on the spelling. You did better than I would have with that.On the Intel ones I understand they were trying to shrink the motherboard to get more battery in the case and keep the mass as low as possible which is quite frankly what the end users were all asking for. The obvious thing to do is to remove as much dead material as possible which means removing RAM modules and SSD modules which they don't control the profile of. Obviously you lose the pluggable modules but (and I don't have the source for this handy at the moment) 90% of macs are never upgraded then it's a sound engineering decision to service the majority of users with larger batteries. Also notably one of the least reliable parts of a machine is the RAM mechanical interface from experience as I have lost count of the number of computers I've repaired just by reseating the bloody RAM.If you look at the Intel 2018 MBA then you'll see what I mean.Internals:Motherboard:There's nothing in it!The M1's are slightly different. As you suggest, it's a system in package environment. But the objectives are the same. They could have designed a modular system. In fact in the Mac Studio, the SSD module is removable. BUT as people have discovered it's not a standard module as it the interface is completely tied into their secure boot, crypto and integrity verification implementation.I'm sure you'll be able to buy new SSDs for the mac studio when the repair program reaches macs.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2022, 09:24:36 pm
content: I do understand, even if I do not share, the desire for the machines to be slimmer. Can't disagree with more battery. So in this context it is merely a design choice rather than any actual difference in operation, which is what I wanted to clarify.Personally I've had far more faulty RAM modules than loose connections, but I haven't seen much in the way of failed RAM from all-soldered Macs. Honestly, I don't see many failures in OEM RAM at all outside of £200 PC World bargains from the usual sad names (Toshiba, Acer..). Very few failures from retail Crucial, and the less said about all 'enthusiast' suppliers the better.Upgrades are an issue, but I only take issue with this because they historically (I haven't checked current) charge 2-4x the retail rate for the upgrade. Admittedly no different to other major vendors, but many other machines you at least get theoptionof the retail rate.. Whether they're actually profiteering here or covering for price optimization on the lower spec machines is pure speculation I'll not engage in, in the interest of civility.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2022, 09:32:53 pm
content: Yeah RAM failures are extremely rare. They are of course covered under warranty. But realistically I expect to get 3 years out of a Mac at average as I am an extremely heavy professional user so I will buy AppleCare warranty to cover rapid replacement etc. After that I shift it as fast as I can as I don't want the uncertainty (having been in the middle of some contract work and had to buy a new ThinkPad, twice!).We had a huge batch of failures from Crucial at my last place. They were chucked in high end Dell Precision 5500 machines. 1 in 5 machines (out of about 200 bought) ended up with failed RAM. That was pretty terrible as I've used Crucial for about 20 years and never had a problem.Yes the pricing is SHIT and completely arbitrary and annoying and there will be no argument from me about thatOn that, one thing I have learned about ANY vendor is that always pick an off the shelf configuration because there is a lead time on any other configuration if you need a replacement, Apple included. I'm using an off the shelf 14" MacBook Pro which I can get replaced the same day at the moment. If I upgraded the RAM I would have to wait 4-6 weeks for a replacement. The same with Lenovo and Dell at the moment thanks to the supply problems.This is annoying really as I need a faster machine. So in my case it's Mac Studio is the next most powerful off the shelf config. Bye bye another £2k

author: eti
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 28, 2022, 02:31:09 am
content: Quote from: bd139 on May 27, 2022, 08:39:05 pmHello Mr Federighi, fancy seeing you here! It must be quiet at Apple for you to have time to come on forums... wow. Won't you be disciplined for leaking info about future hardware?(Better add /S in case the captain literals are reading)USB-C socket won't EVER be seen on the bottom of an iPhone. No way, no how. You can print this post out and quote me on it. It's a SHITTY standard, and Apple are about clarity and simplicity, not about adopting poorly done hardware. There may be some doohickey dongle that allows one to convert FROM USB-C to whatever new socket or implementation Apple have designed for the future, but USB-C itain't gonna beAnyone with enough Apple experience (ask anyone ACTUALLY OVER 40, and someone with decades of experience at, or involved in writing up and consulting for Apple-based media), will tell you this is a fact. Lightning was released... as slow as it is by modern standards, why would they REGRESS, "just because" everyone else is using it?Nope. Never. Also, you may like to Google "Why does iPad use USB-C but not iPhone" or a phrase to that end... and you'll see. Ask Rene Ritchie, Alex Lyndsay of "Pixelcorps" or Leo Laporte, you know, people with actual BRAINS and critical thinking fully operational... you'll see.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 28, 2022, 08:56:05 am
content: HahahaSo current state of affairs is iPhone 14 is Lightning. iPhone 15 is ? but possibly USB-CI have my suspicions there just won’t be a hole in the bottom of it at all. You’re right about simplicity. No mechanical parts is where they are heading.I’m fine with that. My only complaint is the wireless charger is slower.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 28, 2022, 02:17:14 pm
content: I think it would be foolish of them not to be planning ahead for the potential of the EU to force the matter. They managed to skate around the micro-USB attempt, though.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 28, 2022, 02:27:49 pm
content: That was good though. Micro USB was a proper steamer of a standard.

author: eti
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 28, 2022, 09:39:49 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on May 28, 2022, 02:17:14 pmApple do their own, refined thing.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 28, 2022, 09:53:53 pm
content: Quote from: eti on May 28, 2022, 09:39:49 pmApple will lose access to the entire EU if it becomes law, then. Good job you're not making decisions for them.

author: eti
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 29, 2022, 12:33:11 am
content: Quote from: Monkeh on May 28, 2022, 09:53:53 pmErrr, yeah... no... wake up and smell the coffee. This is Apple. They ain't gonna do that. Apple have FAR longer sight than most companies and so-called "tech journalists" combined. USB-C ain't happening on an iPhone, not EVER. Hey, you don't need me to "prove" it to you - I am some schmuck stranger online - sit down and have a word with your critical thinking skills, ask yourself WHY they do not use it, and WHY it is iPad only... and instead of sitting here listening to me, do some DEEP ANALYSIS and research. You'll see.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 29, 2022, 12:44:18 am
content: Quote from: eti on May 29, 2022, 12:33:11 amYou're not paying attention. And no, I'm not doing some 'DEEP ANALYSIS' just to suit you.If Apple wish to retain cabled charging, and the EC passes the proposed amendment, they will have no choice but to adopt USB-C. If you don't understand what I'm talking about (likely..), do some not very deep analysis of your own and figure it out.

author: AnalogAficionado
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: May 29, 2022, 12:44:33 am
content: There is a very good reason Apple has to authenticate repair parts and pair them by serial number to each phone: organized crime syndicates have been bilking BILLIONS of dollars a year out of Apple through repair fraud. Their tactic is simple: purchase a brand new phone with authentic, factory-fresh parts from Apple. Take it to the shop, whereupon select internal organs are removed and replaced with fake or defective parts. Stitch it back up, and return it to Apple as defective, in exchange for a brand new phone.Rinse, repeat.Pretty soon they have enough new, authentic parts to build a whole new phone to sell on the secondary market, or a healthy supply of the most common repair parts to sell into the non-authorized repair market.This is why Apple doesn't want defective parts going back out into the wild - they end up eating a good chunk of those as repair fraud costs.Report details Apple’s struggles to tackle iPhone repair fraud in China, which cost Apple billions of dollars a yearOct. 9th 2018https://9to5mac.com/2018/10/09/iphone-repair-fraud-china/... and this is why we can't have nice things, such as repair parts which aren't paired to the phone by serial #.But, is it really such a big deal to have to make a phone call to Apple and have them pair your genuine repair part with your legitimately-owned phone?? It's a minor inconvenience, at worst. But apparently this is a great excuse for more childish winging about how awful Apple is, and how little they care for their customers.The other very serious issue that people don't seem to consider is just how dangerous an aftermarket Li-Ion battery cell could be. Have we all forgotten the Samsung battery fire debacle so soon!?! Li-Ion battery cells have a propensity to become little incendiaries if mistreated ... either through improper charge / discharge management, or through mechanical damage, such as might be caused by, oh say.... pressing a soft-pouch cell into place using your fingers instead of using a fixture which applies a safe, calibrated pressure to activate the adhesive without damaging the internal layers of the battery (I'm looking at you, Snazzy Labs).Li-Ion cell chemistry varies widely between manufacturers and from year to year with incremental advancements. Proper charging tolerances are in the realm of ±5mV to avoid possible catastrophic long-term damage, and usually the battery management processor needs a very detailed description of the specific cell's characteristics to properly monitor and manage it safely.Can you imagine the legal liability and public relations nightmare Apple would have to deal with if a bunch of iPhones started exploding in people's pockets and backpacks after a bunch of 3rd party repairs went wrong? Yet another reason to have a qualified technician do the repair, using genuine parts which have been tested and QC'd to a safe standard.Once again, the under-informed will find specious reasons to whine and mock, when in fact there are almost always good engineering reasons Apple has done things a certain way.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 29, 2022, 12:49:39 am
content: Quote from: AnalogAficionado on May 29, 2022, 12:44:33 amIs it really such a big deal for them not to demand that they gain access to personal information such as the networks you connect to, app usage, calls and call durations, just to replace a broken screen?

author: eti
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 29, 2022, 12:52:03 am
content: Quote from: AnalogAficionado on May 29, 2022, 12:44:33 amPossibly yes. ButTHE CRITICALpart, which most never mention or skim over (due to an inherent lack of understanding the deep workings of iOS and Apple as a security and trust-centric co) is that the ENTIRE DEVICE is locked down SO tight so as to prevent data leaks, encryption compromises and injection of software AND hardware spy tools etc. It's THAT SIMPLE. I am constantly baffled as to HOW people do not see or understand this! It's the same reason you don't allow Amazon to install a "smart lock" on the front door of your house containing millions of dollars of priceless antiques... LIKE... DUHHHH!

author: eti
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 29, 2022, 12:52:54 am
content: AS regards USB-C not coming, let me point you to someone with a brain...https://www.imore.com/why-iphone-12-still-wont-be-going-usb-c

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 29, 2022, 12:54:38 am
content: Quote from: eti on May 29, 2022, 12:52:54 amI genuinely don't care why you or anyone else thinks USB-C won't be coming to an iPhone. You are flatly refusing to face the possibility that they won't have a choice.

author: AnalogAficionado
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: May 29, 2022, 01:04:21 am
content: Quote from: Monkeh on May 29, 2022, 12:49:39 amWhat makes you assume they're harvesting any of this information? They need access to the low-level crypto stuff on the phone somehow... and they're not going to hand you the tools to do that yourself. Otherwise the criminals could just program in the S/N associations themselves.Anyway, Apple publishes a very transparent and fair privacy policy. Their business model does not involve selling your personal information to 3rd parties, or tracking your behaviour for advertising purposes, etc., in stark contrast to most of the other big tech companies.https://www.apple.com/legal/privacy/en-ww/If they're deviating from what they state, that's a big legal liability they're exposing themselves to.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 29, 2022, 01:05:41 am
content: Quote from: AnalogAficionado on May 29, 2022, 01:04:21 amThe fact that they make you agree to allow them to.

author: AnalogAficionado
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: May 29, 2022, 01:41:28 am
content: Quote from: Monkeh on May 29, 2022, 01:05:41 amDo they?I would be surprised if the permissions they request during the repair authentication process involves anything beyond debug access to your device within the limited scope of pairing a replacement part. If you have the legal text of what is agreed to, I wouldn't mind seeing it... might change my mind. Otherwise, this still sounds like an unfounded assumption. I will grant you, though - it doesn't hurt to maintain a healthy sense of skepticism.But, my bet is they specifically state they will not access any info beyond some firmware-level stuff which is necessary to complete the repair.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 29, 2022, 01:45:26 am
content: Quote from: AnalogAficionado on May 29, 2022, 01:41:28 amLinked earlier in this very thread:It's quite clear that they will collect this data, or they wouldn't ask for it. And no, you can't opt out - you hit 'agree' or your device does not function. If you have an Apple authorized company repair it, they will 'agree' for you.

author: AnalogAficionado
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: May 29, 2022, 02:26:26 am
content: Ah, I had not seen the video. That clarifies things.But, IMHO the person in the video is overreacting emotionally to what's actually in the agreement. Muting the video and just reading the text (pasted below), they're gathering photos of the phone and some diagnostics data, which includes info about other devices the phone is used with (it does not say they're harvesting user data off of those devices, just diagnostic data). Call count & durations (not the same as "who you called, and what was said").They then list the specific purposes they use this info for ... to summarize: determining trade-in value & audit, troubleshooting the phone, improving products & services, and anti-fraud. Nothing there about targeted marketing.I don't interpret any of this as nefarious or invasive. YMMV."By tapping "Agree" you agree that Applemay collect images of this device, whichmay be linked to the device serial numberas well as diagnostic data from this device,and any paired accessories or otherdevices, including the device serial number,device name information about wirelessand wired networks you connect to, dailycount of call attempts and informationabout app usage data and call duration ("di-agnostics data"). Apple may use the imagesand the diagnostics data to determine thedevice's trade-in value. Apple may also usethe images for related audit purposes, andto improve our products and services. Inaddition, Apple and its partners may use thediagnostics data to troubleshoot issues withthis device, to improve our products andservices, and for anti-fraud purposes."

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 29, 2022, 02:51:46 am
content: Nobody was complaining about targeting marketing. But in general, I don't know or care how they will use this information. I just don't want them to have it, there is no need to collect this information if all you want is a screen replacement."images" are not photos, they can't get that, there is no camera in the supplied tools. Images here are data dumps."diagnostic data" and " improve our products and services" may mean literally anything. There is also "diagnostic data" and "diagnostics data" in the same text. And I bet Apple lawyers will find a way to twist that to their favor if it comes to that. They put it there after all. And those people get paid well to not make mistakes like this.Nobody asked them to estimate a trade-in value. Also, does it mean that a phone that went though their official tools will have lower trade-in value than a phone I fixed myself with a construction heat gun?And knowing networks around you will trivially estimate your location and location of all the places you visit.All those things may not be a concern for some people, but it is not necessary to collect this information and as the video title says, it should be illegal.Also, this licence is not present on the web or when you order the kit. The first time you see it is when your phone is half disassembled in the jig. So you are kind of stuck if you disagree.

author: eti
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 29, 2022, 04:38:31 am
content: Whiners are everywhere about this topic. Louis Rossman is right - no matter what Apple do, people just like to whine like little babies.Gripe gripe gripe. Dave also says it in his video. Silly little babies. The internet is fully of entitled whiners, and I’ve noticed a particularly high concentration of them hang around here.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 29, 2022, 05:28:16 am
content: Quote from: eti on May 29, 2022, 04:38:31 amNo matter what Apple do, you'll be ready to defend them. While doing a lot of entitled whining about how everything else is bad.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 29, 2022, 08:18:39 am
content: It’s all bad. Apple are just less bad.

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 29, 2022, 12:04:18 pm
content: Quote from: AnalogAficionado on May 29, 2022, 02:26:26 amI see multiple violations of the EU's GDPR (General Data Protection Regulation), starting with the agreement of sharing data under coercion (otherwise the tool won't do its job).

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 29, 2022, 12:07:25 pm
content: Rubbish. It’s explicit consent and limited purpose. Which is fine under GDPR.

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 29, 2022, 12:27:01 pm
content: We have to wait for Apple to offer that repair kit in the EU and then check their EU EULA. The US EULA would be unacceptable for a European.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 29, 2022, 01:32:39 pm
content: Don't be so sure. The GDPR is a pretty weak set of protections on privacy.Look at the reciprocal agreements and safe harbour garbage.

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 29, 2022, 01:45:57 pm
content: The main issue at the moment is the Irish DPC undermining the GDPR by delaying things and playing games (most big corps have their EU headquarter in Ireland). And we need a new treaty with the US since the last one is declared null and void by the court.

author: eti
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 29, 2022, 09:58:01 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on May 29, 2022, 12:54:38 amI think if you knew who Rene Ritchie was, and just HOW much privileged access he has inside Apple, you may forgo your disdain for me (which is irrelevant to the discussion) and do some reading and listening. You are as stubborn as I am, and I admit that I am.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2022, 11:13:36 pm
content: An other fail of the program from logistic geniuses. When you order the kit and the battery, they ship from different locations and with different methods (shipping lithium batteries is hard). As a result there is a real chace that the pelican cases arrive early and the battery much later. Well, you only have one week of rental time, after that you have to return the kit or you will be charged a ton of money.Video where even journalists doing it for the segment, did not manage to get things in time to actually do it (skip to 24:30, there is nothing new in the first part):

author: eti
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 31, 2022, 01:50:16 am
content: Quote from: ataradov on May 30, 2022, 11:13:36 pmYeah, I've watched every SINGLE one of these videos, (including "iPad Rehab"'s 3hr repair, right through), and this is the ONLY chap who had an issue with the deliveries of kit being out of sync.This is one SINGLE, anecdotal example of this, and it's not exclusive to Apple Self-Repair (hint:you're truly cherry picking things which suit your agenda). I'll speak high praise for Mikah Sargent, the chap doing the video you've referenced; I watch their network 5 times a week, and have done for around 7 years, and whilst I do not agree with all their commentary, they stand apart from the majority of the rest of the tech "journalists", in that Leo Laporte, the founder, has been doing this job for DECADES (and let me say that Mikah is a relative newcomer, his youth and inexperience are maybe influencing his gripe re the shipping - it does seem a little unfair to blame a common issue with couriers, on "Spot", the company arranging shipment of the kit; lest we forget this is a NEW PROGRAMME, and it has teething problems - I'd like to see ANYONE run this repair system SO well [and without shipping charges!!!])We get it mate, you don't approve of it. Some people just want to pick fault... I can be like that too, but in this instance, you are truly clutching at straws, and Mikah's experience with one item arriving late, DOES NOT make the whole scheme "bad" - that's an extremely naive, immature outlook.

author: eti
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 31, 2022, 02:04:40 am
content: Quote from: AnalogAficionado on May 29, 2022, 02:26:26 amThis truly IS "The offended generation", and people go WAAAAAY out of their way tolook for waysto grab "offence" and ingest it. I agree, it's play acting and speculation about unknowns. I trust Apple, and I DO NOT EVER trust Google, and yet the same people who whine about Apple, fall strangely silent or go WAY over-defensive when you point out the countless instances of Google demonstrating absolute CONTEMPT for privacy. Of all the companies I have dealt with in technology, Apple are, by far, THE most discrete, courteous, professional and accurate - and one HUGE stand-out is that they don't squander their $$$, time and energy into dragging other people and companies down, and mocking them; a trap SO may companies fall into, which smacks of institutional insecurity and immaturity at a management level (Samsung is one of many examples)

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 31, 2022, 06:14:44 am
content: Quote from: ataradov on May 30, 2022, 11:13:36 pmIf you go looking for problems you will find them.If you go looking for solutions you will find them.The second way to live your life is the happiest.

author: jonpaul
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 31, 2022, 06:41:27 am
content: I have worked in telecommunications since 1970s, some of my work is still in use.Mobile Phones are built to regional requirements, to meet government compliance, SIM types, GSM and CDMA band variations. Thus a phone sold in the USA has different chipset, cell modem, codecs, firmware and software from an EU or Chinese version.For example phones in Asia commonly have dual SIM slots, but Western phones have one physical SIM and an esim.Thus, Non-authorized non-manufacturer repairs can result in out of compliance phones. The legal and regulatory compliance is one reason why Apple and all other phones manufacturers are reluctant to support DIY repairs.Finally the parts market is filled with Chinese knockoffs of screens, connectors, batteries, etc.Any DIY or repair store is likely to use NON OEM inférieur parts.The "right to repair" is a complex problem, especially for mobile phones.Alternative solutions...just Buy the cheapest phone possibleFor high end models, get extended warrantyBon courageJust the ramblings of an old retired EEJon

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 31, 2022, 07:07:27 pm
content: Quote from: jonpaul on May 31, 2022, 06:41:27 amSolution 3: buy yesterday's high end phones cheap... often you can find them in like new condition.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 31, 2022, 07:08:56 pm
content: Caveat: does not apply to android phones because they are cheap because the vendor stopped patching them…

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 31, 2022, 07:20:02 pm
content: I've only ever known one company that was truly into the right to repair - Philips. Through most of their history every piece of service documentation, and every spare part was orderable by anyone at reasonable cost. They kept all the specialist parts, including things like plastic mouldings, available for years. Every other company has a love-hate relationship with the topic. Some seasons its in their interests to be more open, and in some seasons it isn't. So your interactions with the company will depend strongly on timing.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 31, 2022, 07:23:06 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on May 31, 2022, 07:08:56 pmThere are reasons for not wanting the latest version of Android anyway, as the later versions get more and more restrictive with what you are allowed to do. We all have to make our own risk-reward calculations!I handle this by never putting sensitive data on any of my phones... patched or not!

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 31, 2022, 07:24:16 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on May 31, 2022, 07:20:02 pmI agree, Philips have tended to provide well supported stuff. Hard for them to compete in the "junk market" with that approach, though.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 31, 2022, 07:50:58 pm
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on May 31, 2022, 07:23:06 pmThat's a terrible argument. Using a shitty old compromised version of android and avoid using it for anything sensitive is probably the worst security posture.I have to run a business off mine so I buy the current flagship iPhone every 24 months with AppleCare cash up front. That covers the damage, loss, security and performance vectors adequately to reduce the risk of impacting income and reputation. TCO is <£22 a month. Plus I get to use it for leisure purposes: camera, mapping, navigation, entertainment. Amazing value for money.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 01, 2022, 02:26:23 am
content: Quote from: bd139 on May 31, 2022, 07:50:58 pmMaybe so... I have a stack of cheap phones that I leave in my house, office, car, etc. so I don't have to carry one with me. Esoteric, I know. It works for me, though!

author: eti
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 01, 2022, 06:29:02 am
content: Read here:https://www.reddit.com/r/NoStupidQuestions/comments/oi42n2/what_are_arguments_against_right_to_repair/(If you're too lazy or stubborn to click a link and read a paragraph, here it is):QuoteThere's a very basic aspect to all this, which no one mentions, amusingly...This squawking bunch may feel that they have this "right" to repair, but guess what else they have? FREE WILL, and they can always bypass the purchase and not buy the thing (and make do with a laptop or other device) - the whiners are SO "entitled" - ya know what? We got by FOR MANY DECADES without all this junk, you do not "NEED" the thing you complain so vocally about claiming a "right" to repair.Apple equally have a right to do business the way they see fit for their customers' security and streamlining of their business and security protocols. Do you feel you have a "right" to access chieftain tank service manuals, if you bought one military surplus? Nope. They have every right to ignore your request - the stuff inside both the tank and Apple kit is classified information - ya ain't got jack sh#t "right" to know it, and they, the ones who conceived it, have EVERY right (far more than you) to keep it from you. It's their reputation on the line if security compromised replacement parts get into iPhones and iPads;normal 9-5 consumers don't know or care (and why should they!) how or why these things work; if they buy a used iPhone and *THEIR PRIVATE DATA* was leaked due to an iffy, compromised repair, do you think they, on the whole, have the fine-grained critical thinking skills, or knowledge, to differentiate between "iffy parts" and what they entail, and "BAD APPLE! MY DATA LEAKED!"Get over it and get a grip; you have naff all "rights", and I believe Apple are AT LEAST helping you by showing that the average man is NOT skilled enough to do these repairs. SimpleAs technical-minded folks, you have to step back a bit, snap yourself out of the technology world, and realise that these "right to repair" people (and you) are about 0.00000000000001% of Apple's customers.

author: jonpaul
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 01, 2022, 07:02:02 am
content: "You have no privacy anyway..get over it!"Scott McNealy founder of Sun Microsystems, 1999Jon

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 01, 2022, 09:47:44 am
content: Quote from: eti on June 01, 2022, 06:29:02 am... like genuine shorted MLCCs which come with the Apple product.Would you blame <your prefered car brand> or your mechanic when he replaces a broken part with some Chinese knock-off in your car?

author: golden_labels
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 01, 2022, 01:35:55 pm
content: Quote from: eti on June 01, 2022, 06:29:02 amYou are fighting a statement never made by the other side — you invented it yourself. The right to repair movement is not and never was about Apple in particular. Apple is just a high-visibility target, a single company which affects large population, and a few of its practices are easy to understand by laymen as something negative.(1)That makes it a useful item in rhetorical inventory, but it is in no way the core problem.Repairing hardware is only one of the facets of the right to repair.(2)Fran Blanche has nicely summed it up: it’s about the right to own. And the movement is not living in the vacuum. It heavily interlocks with other ideas. Trying to slay the entire concept by equating it to a single point in the debate is somewhere between blissful ignorance and clumsy manipulation.Quote from: eti on June 01, 2022, 06:29:02 amYes, there is risk of harm to the brand being done by ignorant, dishonest or in some way obsessed users. Actually it constantly is being done everywhere. Not only to Apple, but to everyone. It is also done in a systematic and planned manner to people repairing stuff and providing replacements. Guess, who are the leaders in such attacks. Fighting the damage to brands of myriads of companies and individuals, just to let a few major players keep control over the market, is one of the reasons right to repair exists.You are also somehow forgetting that rights are not absolute and do not magically come before other rights. They are also not all equally important. A company has the right to protect their brand. But it is never unlimited and in some cases it may even be completely overridden.Quote from: eti on June 01, 2022, 06:29:02 amI am from a former communist country. I do not recall any single building not having at least one person who was fixing electronics, every other family not having someone who did electrical work, basic plumbing or carpentry, or someone not capable of mending clothes. With no internet, even with restricted flow of information. All that included skill to illegally acquire resources needed.I do not want this to return. Seeing monstrosities found in electrical installations of that era is enough of the reason.(3)But that observation directly contradicts your claim. Yes, average people are quite capable of fixing stuff. They may be not interested in acquiring the skill without sufficient pressure, but that is not the same as being incapable. Of course that is of little relevance too, because the movement was never about literally everyone fixing their own gear. Again, a a nice straw man. Even worse, the argument made is yet another repetition of long debunked one.(4)Quote from: eti on June 01, 2022, 06:29:02 amWhich is true for any rights movement. It’s always a tiny minority that profoundly cares. The rest is at best leaning to support them, short-term. Try being an activist in any subject and you will quickly learn the painful breakdown: 3M is directly affected, 300k has opinions, 30k supports on Facebook, 3k appear on protests, 300 does anything of real value, 30 goes to meetings with authorities, 3 of them come prepared.So, by the logic you presented, basically nothing should ever be done with anything. Good that not everyone thinks the same way or otherwise now we would be plowing our fields and collecting grain for ours lords, instead of writing on this forum.(5)(1)Even if some of the practices (e.g. glued batteries) may have be a sound choice from engineering perspective (direct thermal coupling to the case; skipping battery frame) and in the end they may stay with us.(2)No, Rossman neither has created nor is defining the movement. He jumped on the bandwagon that was in motion for two decades. An important activist doing good job, but he is not equal to the idea.(3)Not that the licensed electricians at the time were much better, but they are now.(4)Against slavery abolition in US: why would you free slaves, if slaves are not capable of taking care of themselves. That is both circular reasoning and making an invalid assumption.(5)Figuratively. I know it’s not the season for plowing.

author: eti
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 02, 2022, 12:06:58 am
content: This thread = 🤦🏻‍♂️

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 02, 2022, 09:04:31 pm
content: Quote from: eti on June 02, 2022, 12:06:58 am@golden_labels did put up a pretty coherent argument.My sense is that companies should have the right to not provide info and parts - let the market come to their own conclusions about that.On the other hand, people should not be restricted by law from repairing stuff (by DMCA etc.) if they hack their way into stuff that they are in legal possession of, and it should not be illegal to distribute technical information obtained by taking stuff apart. This goes all the way back to freedom of expression.They can't have it both ways...

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 02, 2022, 09:21:20 pm
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on June 02, 2022, 09:04:31 pmThis is basically where we are now. The issue here is that companies not only don't share any parts or information, they actively working on preventing repairs. More and more parts of the phone come with ID chips making third-party replacements impossible.And market only works so far. Apple has more money that GDP of some countries. They have the power to move the market via non-market forces, which they do by buying politicians.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 02, 2022, 09:44:47 pm
content: Quote from: ataradov on June 02, 2022, 09:21:20 pmYou have no idea what you're talking about.The device accept third party screens, cameras, batteries absolutely fine.The ID and authentication process allows the phone to show an authentic part was used when it was repaired as per the following screenshot:The second hand phone market is quite frankly a fucking shit show at the moment. You have no idea what frankenphone you're going to end up with. That feature nearly entirely ends that problem as the phone will report exactly what it has inside in it which is the best position for the buyer.I think you are a victim of the sensationalist reporting bolstered by the dying repair companies here as their market for passing off junk as quality repairs is diminishing.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2022, 01:34:56 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on June 02, 2022, 09:44:47 pmFor example, an iPhone 8 in good condition might be worth $150 on the open market today. A replacement battery for an iPhone 8 is less than $10 on eBay. Going to Apple for an out-of-warranty repair would cost $50.... 1/3 of the value of the phone. So there is definitely still a viable market for third party replacement work.The ID chip idea sounds good in principle, but has been abused in other industries (not saying this applies to Apple). For some cars (and John Deere tractors!) you can't take a used computer controlled subsystem off a wrecked car and use that to repair a still roadworthy vehicle without taking it past a dealer to reprogram the rest of the car to accept the "new" part... This adds expense and inconvenience to the repair process when carried out by anyone other than a person with access to the official service tools.

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2022, 02:02:35 pm
content: ... and you start asking yourself who actually owns the gadget, tractor or whatever. You're locked in the walled garden of some vendor. Add cognitive dissonance and you even claim that the walled garden is the best thing since sliced bread.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2022, 02:38:16 pm
content: Quote from: madires on June 03, 2022, 02:02:35 pmThe "walled garden" model can work fine for some people! E.g. one farmer could just say, "I'm giving John Deere 15% of my harvest to do the job for me without having to worry about anything, and I'm OK with that".I think most iPhone owners are OK with it too. They pay more, but since they are generally non-technical people, they pay more for everything they do anyway so they are probably used to it!

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2022, 03:00:31 pm
content: Yeah I genuinely am paying Apple more money to make a lot of problems fuck off so I can use that time to make money.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2022, 05:59:17 pm
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on June 03, 2022, 01:34:56 pmAh, see, in the US they have the.. right to repair cars! Anyone can buy the tools and access to the software to perform that programming on a per-vehicle basis, along with access to the documentation (factory and rewritten). Sure, there's a cost to it, but it's a practical option which is available. Making it reasonably available, for independents as much as individuals, is the whole idea.

author: golden_labels
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2022, 06:03:50 pm
content: Quote from: madires on June 03, 2022, 02:02:35 pmYou have just described a feudal system. One is allowed to use land in exchange for returning portion of crops and some services to the lord. And indeed over centuries most people were accepting that. Until around 300 years ago some minority group of freedom extremists gained enough traction to egoistically change things and holds power until today. Many remain unhappy with the change. Of course that brings an important question: is it ethical to force anyone to be free against their will?Quote from: bd139 on June 03, 2022, 03:00:31 pmWho is banning you from paying Apple, though? Name them, please? Any source? Something new I never heard about in the right to repair movement.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2022, 06:25:13 pm
content: Quote from: golden_labels on June 03, 2022, 06:03:50 pmI don't believe the points are even slightly related apart from in your head.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2022, 06:40:11 pm
content: I guess one model doesn't preclude the other? If you like Apple's full service model, you go with that. (Most people probably will.)If you like messing with your phone, or want to let the local handyman fix your old phone on the cheap, you should be able to do that too.Where's the problem?One possible problem is that at least in the US, the (car) service department is now the most profitable part of the dealership!Is that where phones are headed?

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2022, 06:42:45 pm
content: There is no problem with that at all.The problem is that the complaint keeps changing whenever people get their way or it is explained that the problem has already been solved. They are now complaining that the phone says it was repaired by a handyman on the screen with dubious parts.I wish my house had one of those screens on it. I might not have bought it in the first place and saved myself a lot of money on remedial work.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2022, 06:44:27 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on June 03, 2022, 06:42:45 pmAs long as they allow those parts to perform their function.. I don't recall seeing cars telling you you can't have cruise control because you put an aftermarket stalk on.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2022, 06:49:10 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on June 03, 2022, 06:44:27 pmWhich they do. Nothing is preventing third party parts from working unless it breaks the SIP guarantee which is a security control and thus is immutable.As for cruise control in cars, yet. Improving safety culture may change that in the future. My cousin was killed by a poorly repaired vehicle.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2022, 06:52:03 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on June 03, 2022, 06:49:10 pmHonestly, we've still got it much better than the US in that regard. The vast majority of repairs are carried out properly, and bad ones will often be caught by MOTs - repairs of structurally damaged vehicles are supposed to be properly assessed. Poor repairs are almost certainly a drop in the ocean compared to the drivers.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2022, 07:03:40 pm
content: Completely agree there. As long as we maintain that rate of improvement.In all industries!

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 03, 2022, 07:06:34 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on June 03, 2022, 06:52:03 pmIt probably depends on the state, in the US. An insurance write-off can never have its paperwork "rehabilitated" in some states even if they are repaired professionally. They forever carry the "damaged repaired" stamp and have a lower value as a result (even if they are perfectly fine cars).

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 07, 2022, 03:08:00 pm
content: https://www.europarl.europa.eu/news/en/press-room/20220603IPR32196/deal-on-common-charger-reducing-hassle-for-consumers-and-curbing-e-wasteIssue forced. Let's see how Apple handle it, shall we?QuoteEmphasis mine.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 07, 2022, 03:25:29 pm
content: QuoteAn adaptor included in the box,its not apples fault if you loose it.Im sure we've been here several years ago when all the mobile manufacturers,including apple, agreed to standardise on micro usb,guess who was first to ignore the agreement.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 07, 2022, 03:26:50 pm
content: Quote from: themadhippy on June 07, 2022, 03:25:29 pmThat will not comply. The device itself must have the port.

author: CJay
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 07, 2022, 05:47:17 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on May 23, 2022, 06:38:51 amThey've no intention of taking it seriously, they haven't wanted anyone repairing their products since the Lisa and possibly before, using vexatious lawsuits with the sole intent of forcing other businesses out of 'their' market.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 07, 2022, 06:17:04 pm
content: Which bit is not taken seriously?You can get the parts and chose to use the repair kit or not and they buy the old parts back and they will repair it in store or you can mail it in for a repair. And you can get them to send you a replacement out and stick the broken item in a box and send it back.That is every repair option that actually makes sense covered.Do you want Tim Cook to personally fluffle your balls when you’re doing the repair?

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 07, 2022, 06:20:15 pm
content: Honestly, I don't think shipping those huge boxes of tools out to individual customers makes sense at all. It's horribly wasteful. Them being available for purchase or long-term rent to independents is the important bit, along with the general availability of parts.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 07, 2022, 06:33:36 pm
content: Well it’s there if you want to do a proper job. That’s basically it.If they didn’t ship them everyone would be hand waving about them making it hard because they only sold the parts and now they have to source tools and oh now they’ve screwed up their phone because they thought they could just do it with a butter knife and some tooth picks.

author: CJay
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 07, 2022, 09:31:50 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on June 07, 2022, 06:17:04 pmHow much do the parts cost if you don't send back the old bits?How much cheaper is a repair if you do it yourself?

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 07, 2022, 09:40:45 pm
content: Quote from: CJay on June 07, 2022, 09:31:50 pmMore expensive than the knock off shitty parts but reasonable.Battery replacement kit for my 13 Pro is $71. Includes replacement screws, new gasket, battery. After refund that goes down to $46.Well you can do the repair yourself using whatever cost tools you have. I have an iFixit toolkit with the required minimum tooling. But I would take it to apple who will replace the whole device for free if they fuck it up during the repair (that actually happened to me in 2018 and they gave me a new iPhone 6s instantly without argument after 23 months of owning it). Or you can risk it yourself. Or risk a third party repairer. Neither of which have that safety net of a warrantied repair.YMMV but this is where the right to repair falls on it’s arse.Can order parts here:https://www.selfservicerepair.com/orderTo get a battery done in store in the UK is £49-69 depending on model. Takes under two hours.

author: CJay
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 07, 2022, 10:20:55 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on June 07, 2022, 09:40:45 pmWhich means they've priced 'right to repair' so it's just not worth doing unless you value your time at $0 per hour and want to bodge up your ~£800 iPhone with 'whatever cost tools' you have instead of hiring their toolkit.It's not entirely difficult to come to the conclusion that they're intentionally hobbling the service, it's even more obvious when you look at the prices for screens.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 07, 2022, 10:52:25 pm
content: Only when you compare the price to the third party turds you get from aliexpress and the local market.Screen on mine is $236 for a 6.1 inch 2532x1170 OLED 460 ppi pixel density with 1200 nits peak brightness and P3 colour space and 120Hz.I find that quite cheap! Less than a couple of tyres for my car.And like hell I’d pay that. As my business runs off this phone it’s insured so it costs me £25 if I smash it. They deliver a new one next day and I send the old one back.People are just looking for shit to be unhappy about.I’m looking to solve problems and commit to a price and ROI to do that

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 08, 2022, 12:04:43 am
content: Quote from: Monkeh on June 07, 2022, 03:08:00 pmVery good... Finally some sense being imposed on the monopoly corporations

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 08, 2022, 06:47:32 am
content: Good but I wish something less crap existed than USB-C. It has the worst mechanical interface and one of the most inconsistent electrical interfaces out there.

author: CJay
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 08, 2022, 04:47:41 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on June 07, 2022, 10:52:25 pmThe point is that the Apple repair parts are priced so as to make it uneconomical to repair the devices yourself when compared to an official Apple repair and that's not including cost of labout/time.It's a pretty standard way to keep people out of your market and Apple have been doing it for decades.I give up though, it's always the same when religious zealots get butthurt that anyone criticises their god and I should know better than to bother.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 08, 2022, 07:04:07 pm
content: Quote from: CJay on June 08, 2022, 04:47:41 pmI don’t find the parts expensive. Or the repairs. Or the devices. Based on the value I derive from using them.It sounds like you want Mercedes parts at Citroen prices and are coming up with every reasoning to justify that position. You are fine to buy a Citroen and buy generic parts for it. But that doesn’t invalidate that I want a dealer serviced Mercedes. I just want a nice car that works.If you think that’s being a zealot or having butthurt then up to you but I’m happy. Many of us are.Edit: to clarify I drive a dealer serviced Citroen

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 08, 2022, 07:14:44 pm
content: It could be a lot worse, you could drive a Peugeot..

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 08, 2022, 07:16:55 pm
content: No no no no I had a Fiat before. 54k miles and the engine blew up

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2022, 10:50:00 am
content: Quote from: bd139 on June 08, 2022, 06:47:32 amUSB-C is definitely a prime example of trying to ram a quart into a pint pot. It kind of defeats the purpose of a standard connector when the connectors do different things on different devices. Sometimes there are different USB-C ports that do different things on the same machine! ... so now the user has to remember which port does what! OMG the poor design practices of modern software is making it into hardware now...

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2022, 10:55:38 am
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on June 09, 2022, 10:50:00 amIts like the standards are constructed by two opposing groups who loathe each other. "Let's make the new connector so generic you can flip it over and it still works.". "We'll show them. Let's do a 'Babel' on them, and end up with a plug that only works in exactly the right socket, and cables so un-generic buyers are totally confused which cable they need.".

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 09, 2022, 11:15:36 am
content: To note, USB-C is only reversible until you repair the connector. It’s virtually impossible to replace the underside pin row properly without very specialist gear. So lots of people now have things that only work with the connector one way up

author: Deodand2014
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2022, 07:28:33 am
content: For what it's worth Hugh Jeffrey has commented on this as well, here is his video:While I know the focus is on Apple, 'Right to Repair' affects other things as well. This video shows someone repairing a washing machine that was 'curbed' because it was making grinding noises. Had it been as the creator first suspected the transmission of the washing machine the only option was complete replacement of the transmission because it's been designed to impossible to replace the internal components of the transmission without destroying it.As it turned out the fix was far simpler and due to that particular machine being sold under multiple brand names it's worthwhile getting the knowledge out there as the fix could save a lot of wasted resources.