Safes - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: steve30
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2015, 01:09:48 pm
content: Since Dave did a (very interesting) video about safes, I thought this would be an appropriate place to ask.Does anyone in the UK have any recommendations for a small safe for household use? Just for storing money and small valuables.There seems to be quite a lot of choice, and I've seen some which would probably be suitable, but I was just wondering if anyone here had any preferences/experiences.Stephen.

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2015, 01:57:32 pm
content: I'd probably go with a key operated one (obviously) rather than an electronic one. Unfortunately there are a lot less of those on the market. Go for an insurance rated one too!Mine is a small Phoenix magnetic media rated fire safe (has one of those flat dimpled keys). Internal secondary protective box takes up an awful lot of internal volume though. Useful for keeping backups as well as valuables and documents. Not a current model though, came from the office when it closed.As you're in the UK, Machine Mart stock quite a few (mostly digital though) that you can look at if you're near a showroom.It really depends how big you want and how much you're prepared to pay (and if you want fire too. The Chub Air range looks like it might be pretty good value for money (but no personal experience)...https://www.safe.co.uk/Series/chubbsafes-elements-air?product=chubbsafes-elements-air-10k

author: Mechanical Menace
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2015, 02:01:40 pm
content: If you only need it for small items I'd go for a floor safe. In my personal experience people look for wall safes and just take free standing ones to open later but never think of lifting the carpet...

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 10, 2015, 02:12:24 pm
content: I don't know about local UK brands, but if it's a Chubb, then(although there are some crappy Chubbs designed down to a price for hotel rooms etc, avoid)If you can buy it at your local hardware store, then it's crapI'd recommend at least an S2 rated one like a Chubb Earth or Chubb Fire.And all safes are useless unless you bolt them down to concrete. Use the chemical poly concrete adhesive bolts.But I must also mention that "security by obscurity" works. A safe screams "something valuable inside" and will be an instant target. There are countless places to hide thing inside your house, you just have to be creative.Also, don't have it delivered to your house, pick it up and pay cash. Tell no one. Loose lips sink ships.

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2015, 02:21:13 pm
content: A real security lock for a safe is a 3 or 4 number set mechanical combination lock. Electronic and simple key locks can be vulnerable to manipulation. Chubb is a provider of decent safes. Talk to a Chubb dealer about your needs.In case anyone wonders, a decent quality combination lock only costs around £100 trade, so they are not that expensive. People listening to the wheel packs rotating with a stethoscope is not a realistic attack process for such a quality combination lock as the wheel packs do not touch the fence arm and rumbler wheels are used for noise masking.Fraser

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 10, 2015, 02:23:41 pm
content: Digital ones are infinitely quicker to access and practically impossible to crack.Tumblers can be manipulated, but a quality one takes time.Keys can be picked, but you need the purpose designed tool, different for each safe lock type. Regular picks tools are useless on the quality brand locks (Kaba-Mauer)Your casual thief won't have the skills or time to crack a tumbler or pick the lock, so the choice it moot.The goal of any safe is to thwart an attack from an opportunistic thief who wants to get in and out as fast as possible.Any professional thief who knows you have it (and the model) and comes prepared, then nothing short of multi-thousand dollar huge heavy TDR safe will stop them. And even then, if they have enough time...

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 10, 2015, 02:25:54 pm
content: Quote from: Fraser on November 10, 2015, 02:21:13 pmNope, quality brand electronic locks aren't vulnerable. They can't be spiked, bumped, or manipulated in any way. They are safer than tumblers.But as I said, for a home safe, the argument is moot.As always, the cheap ones are crap.

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2015, 02:27:06 pm
content: For those interested. Here is a page showing the insides of a quality Manifoil combination lock that contains 3 wheel packs.http://timwarriner.com/manifoil/page2.htmlFor those unfamiliar with them, they appear quite scary, but you soon get used to opening one.Fraser

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 10, 2015, 02:27:36 pm
content: Quote from: Fraser on November 10, 2015, 02:21:13 pmGood manipulators don't listen, theyfeel.

author: AndyC_772
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2015, 02:28:11 pm
content: I wondered about safes too, though more for protection against fire than theft.I found it quite hard to locate good reviews, because reviewers seemed to berate fire safes for poor physical security against theft and mechanical damage... missing the whole point completely, of course.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 10, 2015, 02:30:50 pm
content: Quote from: AndyC_772 on November 10, 2015, 02:28:11 pmA good fire safe (that has no valuables) you actually want to leave unlocked with a big sign that says "No valuable inside, for fire protection only". Otherwise a thief could smash up your nice safe

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 10, 2015, 02:32:09 pm
content: Quote from: AndyC_772 on November 10, 2015, 02:28:11 pmFor fire safes it depends on what you want to protect. It is just paper, then that's a lesser rating than media like hard drives etc.

author: AndyC_772
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2015, 02:39:09 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on November 10, 2015, 02:30:50 pmThey'd be welcome to; the longer they spend wrecking something something relatively cheap and easily replaced, the less time they're spending causing me losses I actually care about. On that basis, a half decent safe with nothing inside at all could actually be worth having.I'm not planning on keeping anything of commercial value inside. Just encrypted data.

author: fcb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2015, 02:43:00 pm
content: Quote from: Fraser on November 10, 2015, 02:27:06 pm+1The Manifoil 4 can be cracked in about 2 weeks (from memory) with one of those robo-crackers (I've seen one working - very Mission Impossible), very very hard to do acoustically as they have rumble wheels.Are these still the standard Fraser?

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2015, 02:48:59 pm
content: @fcb,This is a sensitive topic for me to comment on. No Comment has to be my response. My above recommendation stands.Fraser

author: bitslice
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2015, 02:51:19 pm
content: I'd recommend looking on eBay for a local one, given that they are so heavy they tend to be 'collection only', and so huge ones go for pennies.The security of the fixing point is far more important that the actual brand.

author: rolycat
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2015, 03:35:38 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on November 10, 2015, 02:12:24 pmQuote from: Fraser on November 10, 2015, 02:21:13 pmIt may be worth noting that a Chubb dealer is not necessarily a Chubbsafes dealer; they are two separate companies.The once-British Chubb was bought by the Swedish firm Assa Abloy in 2000. Chubb Locks became a brand of their Israeli Mul-T-Lock subsidiary and they sold the safe business to Gunnebo, another Swedish company.Consequently the safes are now branded as Chubbsafes, not Chubb.A second-hand Secureline safe may be a worthwhile buy, since the Chubbsafes name can carry a premium and Secureline is a now-abandoned brand of the same company - many Secureline models were rebranded as Chubbsafes a few years ago.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2015, 04:09:38 pm
content: This is the common way that safes are opened here.

author: steve30
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2015, 06:55:11 pm
content: Thanks for the interesting replies everyone.I watched a video about mechanical combination locks the other day, and they look really good. I wouldn't mind having one. Most safes seem to have either keys or electronic locks. Can't say I'm too fussed about the exact type at the end of the day. I'm probably just as prone to misplacing a key as I am to forgetting a code.I think I might see about getting something of a compromise between fire rating and security.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2015, 12:59:20 am
content: I will add to Fraser's comment that if you have something that really needs protected an internet forum is not the place to look for the answer. I worked in the arms industry and safes that were selected to protect the most carefully held material were not considered unbreakable. The pertinent ratings were how long to overcome, and could you tell if it had been done. Which is the clue that if something really needs to be protected you need layers of different types of protection. No homeowner should need that type of security.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 11, 2015, 02:49:41 am
content: Quote from: AndyC_772 on November 10, 2015, 02:39:09 pmMany people actually have two safes, one is is the "dummy safe" in a fairly easy to find location that keeps them occupied, whilst your valuables are hidden in the harder to find safe.One of the problems with safes is professional thieves are not smash'n'grabbers, they are happy to come back another day with the right tools and the right knowledge. So if you have a kick-arse safe they know something good must be inside, so they'll wait it out and come back with a plan.So safes are a one-shot deal. If you know your house was broken into and they didn't get into your safe, assume they have found the safe and are likely to come back another day.QuoteIn that case you need a "data" rated safe. They stay cooler temps for longer. Different class of safe to your usual fire rated safe.Again, put a label on the outside "no valuables inside, just data"

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 11, 2015, 05:25:48 am
content: Quote from: wilfred on November 11, 2015, 03:27:56 amYep, that's common. Clean out a house, and then wait a few months until they make the insurance claim and buy new stuff, then hit it again.

author: BradC
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2015, 08:57:45 am
content: Quote from: CatalinaWOW on November 11, 2015, 12:59:20 am+1000Dealing with this sort of stuff every day, this is by far the best answer I've ever read on a forum.Nothing is ever unbreakable, it only provides a specified delay to a *specified* attack. Deter, Detect, Delay. Just as Ogres are like onions in that they have layers, so too is security.Floor safes are nice and have always been my choice for domestic applications wherever possible. If you really have stuff to protect, go and talk to a reputable dealer and get a quality safe. Pay to get it installed by a professional and get them to show you how to change the code, then DO IT! The number of times I've come across people with mechanical combination safes that are still the default code (that everyone knows) makes me cry in anguish.Electronic combination locks are nice, but the safe is a lot harder to open after they've been smashed in frustration by a drugged out nutter. The mechanical locks take a lot more abuse before they cease to function. Yes, it happens.The old Chubb or equivalent is my goto, but after working in the Middle East for a few years, the Indian Godrej is a workable safe also (Used a lot in the jewelry industry up that way).

author: apelly
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 11, 2015, 09:16:19 am
content: Look for a safe moving/haulage company near by. They will have some second hand ones, and will be able to refer you to some specialist locksmiths who might have a wider selection.Get the biggest one you can afford. You will want more space than you think.Even a fire safe, of any reasonable size, is a PITA to move, so you will need the safe moving company anyway.

author: Galenbo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2015, 08:12:48 am
content: Quote from: steve30 on November 10, 2015, 01:09:48 pmDepends on what your requirements are.My safe is fireproof too (to some degree) witch means double wall, also the door.And firefighter-water-proof too, don't forget this.It's without electronics, with a simple lock, the key is on it. Not yet attached to concrete.I just keep documents, diploma's, backup drives&DVD's in it.Rarely money, if I do it, it's primarely for remembering where I put that money.I chose a model that can contain A4 folders.

author: GNU_Ninja
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2015, 08:55:53 am
content: Can of Beans safehttp://www.amazon.co.uk/Sterling-202HB-SafeCan-Heinz-Baked/dp/B000FO6MRQ/ref=pd_cp_60_2?ie=UTF8&refRID=1PTJ9ZEF9BKJVETY1RXQ

author: steve30
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2015, 11:31:23 am
content: i always find the baked bean safes rather funny. Because I don't eat baked beans or similar products, a baked bean safe would really stick out to a potential burglar.

author: Sbampato12
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2015, 11:45:41 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on November 10, 2015, 02:12:24 pmMay looks paranoia, but I think this is the only real way. If you hire someone to do, they will be the first one to know that you have a safe, and if you have a safe you have something inside....

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2015, 04:30:56 pm
content: Quote from: Sbampato12 on November 13, 2015, 11:45:41 amWhich is why if you want security by obscurity you don't buy something you can get on the internet. Think up something on your own, that won't stand out in your location. Something that doesn't look like it should be thrown away, because that would be a clue. If you are a packrat by nature you have more options. Remember that if you access it frequently you will leave clues of various sorts. And remember that if you are storing something of real value, and anyone knows you have it, it will be worth their while to expend a little less than half its value in getting to it. And they won't care what they break getting there.