Rigol DS4000 series owners: Please tell me everything you hate about em' - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: XFDDesign
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2015, 10:55:34 pm
content: I'm now finally ready to buy my replacement scope. Teks are not made like they used to be, and I came to a few realizations:1. Since pretty much everything is made off shores, and Tek specifically makes stuff in China now, there isn't any value over buying an actual Chinese scope.2. To go straight across from the TDS5000 series to the modern equivalent, the total cost has doubled since I bought my scope new. Without any actual increase in value.3. My 9 year old scope is pretty much on its death bed (unlike my rather ancient Tek475 which still works just fine). Given that the MDO5k series is $15k and will likely not last more than 5 years, I figure I can go the Rigol route, spend 1/3rd as much for the same specs, and at a minimum spend the same $15k to get 15 years of service out of a Rigol device (3 of them at $5k a piece, neglecting all of the very real things such as inflation and new product releases).I've been pretty happy with my DSA-815, so as of this instant I think more of Rigol than Tektronix. So, my mind being set against Tek and I'm very seriously looking at the DS4054 Rigol, I'd like to hear the problems and complaints people have with the series of scopes. You're free to say what you think is good, but I'm mostly looking to hear what's bad. A forum search had complaints about the firmware from ~2 years ago, so I'm not sure if that's still the case or not but there wasn't much else as everyone else was going for very low cost "value" models.Thanks.

author: commongrounder
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2015, 12:44:26 am
content: Fan is unnecessarily loud. Plan to replace the one in mine when the warranty is up. The firmware is close to mature; haven't had a crash in ages. The multi purpose knob is a bit touchy, just takes a bit of getting used to. Some functions, like decoding, slow down the update rate. I would buy it again. Good bang for the buck.

author: dr.diesel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2015, 12:59:57 am
content: See here:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-mso4000-and-ds4000-tests-bugs-firmware-questions-etc/

author: don
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2015, 03:07:17 am
content: Quote from: XFDDesign on April 06, 2015, 10:55:34 pmI thought the same thing and bought a DS4000. I had loads of useablity issues with it and ended up returning and buying an MDO3000. Things like could only decode I2C at <100ms/sec even though it had 140M of memory and plenty of sample rate. could not decode I2c with segmented memory. Or very, very slow zoom response with deep memory. No zoom with roll mode (something odd in roll mode , maybe no cursors in roll? need to look back). Several lock-ups (averaged less than 1 per hour or so). Originally I had no plans to buy a new tek, but mdo3000 looked like a bargain after trying a siglent sds2000, rigol ds4000. MDO3000 has been running bug free for my usage, and functionally is very similar to MDO4000 which I like for general debug at work. I am not very tolerant of buggy scopes / things not working if not necessary, sort of lazy like that when debugging things to begin with. And you might find no issues with ds4000 with the work you do so worth looking at your needs and reported bugs.I'm not concerned about where a scope is manufactured. I am most concerned about the overall usability of the scope scope today, (not predicted in the future), some key features I need, and reliability of measurements. Maybe the issues are fixed in ds4000, but >$2000 can get you a nice used scope if you are interested in going that route. Rigol's lower end scopes ironically appear to be better supported than their higher end. I have not been following though. The last I used one was in November of 2014 ( but that's after scope was on the market for 2yrs? ). Maybe they have cleaned up the bugs since November, but as of then it seemed like support was over.

author: H.O
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2015, 05:42:27 am
content: Hi,I've had a DS4000 for a couple of years now. I use for my hobby so it doesn't see 8 hours per day of use.I don't remember it crashing. It could have but it's certainly not common in my case, no matter which firmware I've been on.It's obvious that the with the DS2k and DS1kZ literally flying off the shelves Rigols efforts are spent there. Bugs present in both the DS2k and the DS4k (and probably the DS6k) was fixed on the DS2k then it took a very long time before finding its way to the DS4k firmware (I wouldn't be surprised if the DS6k is lagging even more). In my last contact with Rigol they assured me that support/development for the 4k is not dead and since it shares code with the MSO4k I would think it'll be alive a bit longer but who knows. Put them against the wall before buying - for whatever that's worth.With the latest firmware update where they (finally) fixed so that the decoders work with segmented memory I don't have any real problem with it but again it doesn't see as much use from me as some other posters use theirs.I agree with previous posters:The fan is loud, I've replaced mine and it's better but that thing needs a fair bit of air flow so don't expect it to get super quiet.The multifunction enocder IS touchy and does need some getting used to. Some swap the knobs around to put a bigger one on the multifunction encoder. Haven't tried that.The decoders decode ONLY what's in the display memory, ie what's shown on the screen and all decoding is done in software so it is fairly slow, at least compared to the Agilent/Keysight stuff where they do it in hardware. It's possible to capture a long frame and then zoom and pan and let the decoder do it's thing once you find what you're looking for but since the decoder only works in display the event table is sort of useless. I honestly don't think the money they're charging for decoder option(s) is warranted for what they provide - YMMV of course.With that said, I don't know if you're buying professionally or for hobby use and how relaxed you are when it comes to "tweaking" the scope but, if things hasn't changed in the last couple of months, you can buy a bare bones DS4014 and "tweak" it to a fully optioned DS4054.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2015, 06:19:10 am
content: Before committing to a Tektronix I'd look at Keysight's 3000 series or the Lecroy Wavesurfer 3000 series as well. Either way make sure you can return the scope after some hands on testing.

author: AndyC_772
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2015, 06:21:58 am
content: You've probably seen my gripes already if you've searched the forum. I don't use the Rigol any more, but things I particularly remember are:- cursor movement is very sluggish and jumpy; making accurate measurements with them is pointlessly difficult- serial decoding was (still is?) very buggy, and painfully slowFor my own use, I bought an Agilent MSOX-3054A instead, and it's a much more usable scope. The specs on paper aren't too different, and I very (very!) occasionally miss the depth of the Rigol's memory, but the Agilent is a much nicer instrument.Best of all is that you don't have to pay full price for it:http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Keysight-Premium-Used-MSOX3054A-Oscilloscope-500-MHz-Agilent-MSOX3054A-/191527147188?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2c97e856b4http://uk.farnell.com/keysight-technologies/msox3054a-certiprime-refurbished/oscilloscope-20-ch-500mhz-4gsps/dp/2468108

author: trukresom
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2015, 07:16:48 am
content: The thing that is getting on my nerves on my DS4054 is not the noiseof the fan but the noise of the preamplifiers.This screenshot was made with channels terminated with 50 Ohms, no cable connected.Ch1: full bandwidth, CH2: 200MHz CH3: 10MHz CH4: 20 MHz

author: XFDDesign
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2015, 02:48:33 pm
content: Quote from: trukresom on April 07, 2015, 07:16:48 amI should post a screenshot of my Tek. The noise is about the same as what you posted here. Looking at that shot, there seems to be a few DC errors and some gain errors as well. Channel 1, appearing to be the worst, might have a 1.5mVpp noise. If I were to graciously say it's a 1mVrms noise, and assume you're running on 500MHz 3dB bandwidth, it comes out to around 28.5nV/rtHz of noise. Which isn't particularly good, but it isn't Earth-shattering.My usecase, as the ownership of the TDS5032B new might have indicated, is professional use case. This thing will get calibrated annually for tracability, and I will use the results in building up my spec sheets as well as general debugging.The issue about I2C serial decode and all of that ... doesn't actually apply to me, really. My mode of thinking is "this oscilloscope does time-domain analog analysis," and for digital things, I have a dedicated logic analyzer which does I2C, SPI, UART, CAN, LIN and USB decoding. The cursor measurements bit is interesting, but to be honest, I don't expect high precision with those things. If I need absolute knowledge with high certainty, I will need to dump the captured data to my computer and then post-process the data there.When it came to my Ovenized Oscillator source, this is what I had to do in order to calculate jitter.Many thanks to everyone who have replied with the issues, especially on the link to the big discussion. I guess searching for DS4054 was too specific!Cheers!

author: AndyC_772
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2015, 03:25:54 pm
content: Quote from: trukresom on April 07, 2015, 07:16:48 amMy MSO-X3054A has, if anything, slightly more noise. It's not affected my use of the scope at all.Quote from: XFDDesign on April 07, 2015, 02:48:33 pmIf you're looking to get data out of the Rigol and onto a PC, you'll find it's very fussy indeed about which USB memory sticks it'll work with, and it's slow at best. I was specifically recommended to use Integral brand USB sticks.The PC software that comes with the Rigol is a joke, and if you want to extract data from it via Ethernet, you'll be writing your own SCPI scripts.

author: XFDDesign
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2015, 05:05:11 pm
content: Quote from: AndyC_772 on April 07, 2015, 03:25:54 pmI'm actually fine with SCPI scripts. It comes down to whether I can actually talk to the instrument or not. That's a good point that I need to get identified... I'm planning on getting the GPIB adapter.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2015, 06:07:53 pm
content: Quote from: don on April 07, 2015, 03:07:17 amI've seen the similar things on a friend's DS4000, and he's already on his 3rd scope!I'm not agreeing with don very often but from my point of view the DS4000 is one of the most unattractive 4ch entry level scope on the market, not just because of the various problems, but also because of it's very limited performance (i.e.FFT with only 2048 data pointswhich is ridiculous!). The 140M memory is more for being able to impress in brochures (well, memory is cheap) as the DS4000 can't really make much use of all the memory.I'm not a Tek fan (and especially not of the MDO3k) but I'd take a Tek MDO3k over a Rigol DS4000 any day!Especially if it's for professional use (i.e. a tool for earning money) then I'd say just forget about Rigol, seriously. Stick with the big brands (Keysight, Tek, LeCroy, Rohde & Schwarz), and ask all of them to give you a loaner for evaluation, put them through their paces, and then pick the one that's best suited for you (and don't forget to haggle with the sales droids!).IMHO that's the only sensible approach.

author: XFDDesign
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2015, 06:41:49 pm
content: Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on April 07, 2015, 06:07:53 pmIf you look at my history, you'll find I'm no fan of FFTs on scopes anyway. When I need spectrum analysis, I use my Spectrum Analyzer. I'm not sure these count as "low end scopes" for their price range (compared to their actual low end), but Tek is absolutely off the table.Do you know the failure modes of his DS4k? Were they all the same failures? What kind of environment was the scope used in (i.e. might it have been a particular environmental condition)?

author: Hydrawerk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2015, 07:09:54 pm
content: Rigol DS4000 has poor customer support andno search functionlike Wave Inspector. No possibility to place marks. Pretty bad for such an expensive scope with extra long 140 Mpoints memory.Try an Agilent (Keysight), but they might have too short memory when compared to Tektornix or Rigol.I do not own a DS4000 scope but I tried the serial decoding. It really slows down the scope, as other people said.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2015, 07:12:36 pm
content: Quote from: XFDDesign on April 07, 2015, 06:41:49 pmFair enough (although not having to use another device just to see the frequency components of a signal can be helpful). But it's not just FFT, the scope's overall processing is pretty slow.QuoteThe DS4000 is low-end, maybe not by its price (it seems to be pretty expensive) but certainly by it's performance. It's essentially a 4 channel variant of the DS2000, and that scope competes with other entry level scopes (i.e. Keysight DSOX2000).The Tek MDO3000 (as well as the already mentioned LeCroy WaveSurfer 3000) are actually lower mid range scopes. The same is true for the Keysight DSOX3000 and the R&S RTM2000. All these scopes are in a leage above the Rigol DS4000 and actually compete with the DS6000 (where the situation is even more dire as for the DS4000).If you don't want Tek (I wouldn't buy Tek, either, aside from their new 70k Series maybe) then that's fine, there are other alternatives. The Keysight DSOX2000/3000/3000T are good scopes but also pretty old designs which means they have their shortcomings (i.e. tiny memory). There's also the LeCroy WaveSurfer 3000 (really nice scope, I had one for a day) and the Rohde & Schwarz RTM2000.QuoteThe owner is a retired EE/radio amateur who uses the scope in his (pretty well equiped) home lab. All scopes had similar flaws, which are down to shitty firmware, but Rigol won't or can't fix it so they either "repaired" the scope (i.e. did nothing) and then just replaced it with another unit. He's a pretty patient guy but he now really hates the scope.Myself I'm not much into low end scopes (I spend most of my time with high end scopes) but from what I've seen the DS4k looks like a pretty poor device. Also, in my experience, while the "big" Chinese brands Rigol and Siglent can actually produce pretty good hardware, both are pretty bad in terms of software. Siglent seems to be even worse than Rigol, but both bring out products with major firmware issues which may or may not get fixed. Rigol did a decent job with the DS2000 because they sold a lot of them (but it took them quite a while to get there), but the same isn't true for the DS4000 (and even less so for the DS6000), so these scopes don't get the same attention. It's also annoying that owners have to beg Rigol for sending firmware updates as they are not available for download on their website which in this day and age is a joke. And most of the time you end up wondering what exactly a new firmware version is supposed to fix, as information is often very sparse.Rigol is fine for a hobbyist, and the DS2000 and especially the DS1000z are pretty attractive scopes for that segment. For a business, not so much. You said you wanted the scope calibrated, but have you seen theService Manual for the DS4000? It's a joke, really. It's as basic as it can be, with no calibration instructions whatsoever. Good luck getting that scope traceably calibrated.Seriously, if I were you I'd get a Keysight DSOX3000T, a LeCroy WaveRunner 3000 and a R&S RTM2000 as loaners and then pick one of those depending on which fits your needs best.

author: Hydrawerk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2015, 07:19:47 pm
content: QuoteThey were released in 2011. Not so bad when compared to Tektronix DPO2000 or DPO3000.Especially the Keysight DSOX2000 still has no competitor in it's cathegory.

author: AndyC_772
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2015, 07:35:23 pm
content: I wouldn't touch the 3000T when you can buy one of the many 'premium used' MSO-X3054A scopes that Keysight are currently selling off. If they're anything like mine, then they really are like new, calibrated and with warranty, and half the price of a new one.It's about as much of a no-brainer as they come, especially as the major difference with the 3000T would appear to be a greater number of fingerprints on the screen.

author: XFDDesign
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2015, 07:41:22 pm
content: Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on April 07, 2015, 07:12:36 pmThanks for this post. To verify, it's not that the hardware is crap, but the software is crap? I started looking at the DS2k series you mentioned, but they seem to be a pretty giant leap down. 2 channels; 300MHz max for their best end device. I was specifically looking for 4ch at a minimum of 350MHz. A few of my products have to measure rise times that are pretty steep. I think you were the one to mention that memory is pretty cheap, so it's disappointing that the memory depth in many of these things is so shallow.The LeCroys I've looked at are all stupidly expensive - back to the same issue with the modern DPO5k series. My Tek TDS5032B was $7,300 new. The same series of scope today, (4ch only option) is $12.3k. For no real performance improvement (a bit more memory). Memory is cheap, so that isn't going to justify an additional $5,000. I know inflation is bad, but it isn'tthatbad. Even then if I spend this kind of money, the damned things will just go boobs up in a few years because the QC seems to be mined from the sewers. Rhode and Schwartz is known where I used work at, for having terrible reliability. I would summarize that it seems all modern scopes are crap, so the point of this thread is to determine what kind of crap I'm going to have to deal with for the least amount of money.

author: AndyC_772
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2015, 07:53:56 pm
content: I suspect some of the cost is in the features that are less well advertised.A few years ago I was fortunate enough to have the use of a Tek DPO7000. I found it clunky to use and wouldn't necessarily want it as my regular bench scope - but its time base stability was superlative, and for the job in hand, that's what mattered.Most of what I do is less critical in terms of absolute performance, so the fact that my scope is clocked from an ordinary crystal is a non-issue. It's more important that it fits on my desk, is quick and intuitive to use, and doesn't crash.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2015, 08:04:30 pm
content: Quote from: XFDDesign on April 07, 2015, 07:41:22 pmI don't where you looked but LeCroy is actually pretty reasonable and regularly cheaper than Keysight. The mentioned WaveSurfer 3000 for example starts at $3k, and the 500MHz 4Ch variant is $6900 at Digikey (which isn't exactly known for its low prices):http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/WAVESURFER%203054/WAVESURFER%203054-ND/4897131QuoteI don't know much about Tek's prices but even the 1GHz LeCroy WaveSurfer 10 isn't that expensive ($10k).QuoteI don't have much experience with their scopes (they only do their own scopes since 2009 or so) but the RF kit from R&S has always been top-notch, not just in performance but also in reliability. The engineering quality is also usually excellent (it shows that aside from their entry level Hameg stuff most kit is built in Germany, and even the Hameg kit is made in Europe (CZ)). The only issue with R&S kit was the price, but that has changed in recent years.QuoteNot really. And it wouldn't work that way anyways. For example, LeCroy fully supports their scopes for 7 years after the particular model has ended production, and usually much longer after that (they still repair 9300 Series scopes, which ceased production around 1999). You can even buy some LeCroy scope from ebay or elsewhere, and as long as it's within the 7yr support period and the factory seal is still in place you can buy mfgr warranty for it when you have it calibrated with them and it passes. IMHO this demonstrates a lot of confidence in their products.R&S also supports their kit like forever.Keysight can be hit and miss but their kit is usually also pretty good and regularly lasts >10 years easily.

author: Gunb
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2015, 08:08:31 pm
content: Replaced my 20k€ Keysight 4054 1GHZ at work with an Hameg HMO3054, all options included.Agilent/Keysight: bad ADCs for the money you pay. Too much noise. Many times discussed by experienced users. Serial decoders expensive, not half of the functionality the HMOs got for less money.The 20k€ Agilent does not even have UART decoder included! I2C and SPI can only show bytes as HEX values or decimal. Not very helpful for debugging firmware. Would expect that they offer many functions more than Hameg or Rigol, but they don't. Screen size does not show a piece of a signal more than the HMOs do since it has got menus permanent on and the effective no. of pixels is exactly the same as the HMOs have got. Event the Rigol DS4000 has more horizontal px than the Agilent has got since the menus can be hidden. See datasheet in detail before starting a discussion about that again.Rigol DS4000 series: don't know how many people really use that scope but I don't have the problems discussed here. It also has to be considered which DS4000 is discussed. The DS4012 is expensive, but not too expensive. If you release the decoder options with the keys for free, than it's the money worth even if they are not the fastest one. The 140MPoints are surely not to no purpose if someone is able to transfer data to PC apps as MATLAB, Labview, self implemented apps in C# / C++. The wfm is much faster than most of the scopes you can get for the money except Agilent/Keysight. For a long time I was an Agilent fan, but today the focus too much onto wfm and forget all the other features.The biggest crap is the Agilent / Keysight 2000 series, which do not have real 1mV/DIV (only calculated, see datasheet remarks) as the HMOs, to less memory and to expensive options. Rather I would take the 3000 series into account. Still too expensive.I would never buy a Rigol for 5000€, for that money I would buy LeCroy, Keysight ... if bus decoders are not the most important issue, otherwise I would buy an HMO, since it is a real allrounder with fast hardware decoders.I'm using the named scopes daily, so not only an theoretical approach.

author: XFDDesign
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2015, 08:25:38 pm
content: I haven't considered Hameg before. Do they have any non-Mixed-Signal series? The HMO3054 is pretty reasonable in price, but I'd rather not pay for the LA which I wouldn't use.QuoteI'll give the LeCroys another look then.Keysight/Agilent/HP are non-starts. I bought the Tek because of a bad experience with Agilent's support. As to "support" my experience with the big names has been so dismal, I buy with the expectation of zero support after the 30 day return period. Thus, why Tek and the like are binned in the same ranks as Rigol- so why pay more.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2015, 08:29:36 pm
content: Quote from: Gunb on April 07, 2015, 08:08:31 pmMy friend's DS4k is a D4054, with all options legally bought. And believe me, he uses the scope almost every day.QuoteI don't think these prices are particularly cheap, in fact I think they're actually pretty high for such a primitive scope:http://www.batronix.com/shop/rigol/DS4000.htmlQuoteYes, externally. Which you can do with any scope that has LAN, USB or GPIB. Much more interesting however is how the 140M is used in the scope, and what the Rigol offers is pretty bleak.QuoteNot really. The DS4k is kisted with 110k wfms/s which is the same as the Siglent SDS2000 (which is noticably cheaper).The DS4000 is also slower than the WaveSurfer 3000 (120k wfms/s). And the WS3054 is roughly the same price as a DS4054.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2015, 08:45:00 pm
content: Quote from: XFDDesign on April 07, 2015, 08:25:38 pmJust stay away from their low end WaveAce Series, they are crap, really (rebadged Siglent). All other LeCroy scopes are fine, just not the WaveAce.

author: Gunb
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2015, 09:09:57 pm
content: Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on April 07, 2015, 08:29:36 pmStupid question: how can I quote only a sentence without quoting everything at once???Answers to your comments:#1: yes and no. As I mentioned, it depends on the DS4000 we're talking about. I've made the experience, that my DS4012 works more stable as if I made it to a DS4052 with 500MHz. I also noticed that it crashed a few times when working with 500MHz bandwidth, but not so if reset to the 100MHz DS4012. Seems that it does not work reliable with higher frequencies. That's why I've said that it has to be distinguished about which DS4000 we're discussing.#2: I also mentioned that the price is not cheap, on the other hand when the DS4000 series appeared on the market the DS2000 wasn't born as many other todays scopes also. Think, also the Siglent was released later. As I bought it I could not find many scopes with a Megazoom similar zoom, such a wide screen and a wfm/s which is comparable to the older Agilent 546xx series. And yes, the bus decoders, as remarked before, are too expensive. Would never pay money for them, Hameg is much better.#3: Yes, I agree, they could have done a better job concerning the 140MPts. A simple search functionality would increase the value dramatically. It's nice to have, it was never an argument to buy this scope. There are app notes about the memory.#4: Yes, meanwhile there are better scopes for the same money. And I would prefer them also if I would buy a scope today because of the reasons you've explained before. I've got the feeling that Rigol tried to replace the DS4000 series by the DS2000 since they've noticed that they can't compete with others in the price range of the DS4k.What I notice is that many people discuss as "experts" about devices they've never used or own only by reading a few things in the datasheet. There are basic features a scope should have, other details that depend on the user's needs. As explained before I would never buy a Rigol for more than 2000€.For a 100MHz scope with the bus decoders enabled for free it's a device a like for working at home. I confess that I also have HMOs on my desk ;-) It used to be an argument that the Rigol offers zoom in stopped ROLL mode which I've missed with many other scopes. A feature, that I've needed for the job daily and which I know from the Agilents.BTW: many years ago I had one of the first WaveRunners (?) on my desk at work, one of those with the big screen. Two reasons why I did not like it: very noisy and running MS Windows. Whereever I can avoid Microsoft, I'll do it. They spent a lot of my lifetime with their crappy products.

author: XFDDesign
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2015, 09:19:41 pm
content: People keep bringing up the decoders, but these are non-issues for me. I have a LA for that.The essential function of a scope is to stick a dot on the screen with some level of accuracy, and with a determinate amount of time later, stick another dot on the screen. Repeat this as necessary to build up a decent representation of the measured signal. I like the means to turn the timebase knob out, grab a very long record of data, and then zoom in and see what's been going on. My specific interest is in what goes on with the measured, analog, signal. I can determine what kind of problems my IF signal is having in an intuitive manner that my SpecAn cannot communicate to me.The LeCroy Wavejet looks a little "DarthVader" like, but looks to be about the same in price. In comparing a DS4k to it, I caught that the Rigol doesn't have AC triggering. Something I use very often.Thatis problematic.QuoteThis forum uses tags, so you would type [ quote ] (without the spaces between the brackets) copy/paste the specific words you're interested in, and then type [ /quote ] (again without the spaces between the brackets) to terminate it.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2015, 10:06:40 pm
content: Quote from: Gunb on April 07, 2015, 09:09:57 pmSimple. Just put the word "quote" (without the quotation marks) in square brackets in front of the section/sentence you want to quote, and put word "/quote" (again in square brackets) at the end of the section/sentence.QuoteInteresting. The analog bandwidth shouldn't have an impact on the digitizer section but it could well be that there is a design flaw which shows at higher frequencies.QuoteI agree, several years ago when the DS4k came out it probably was much more appealing that today.QuoteYes, I guess they noticed that the only way they could get some market share was by addressing price conscious hobbyists, which is what they did with the DS2000 and later with the DS1000z. And very few hobbyists buy 4ch scopes.QuoteFor a 100MHz scope with the bus decoders enabled for free it's a device a like for working at home. I confess that I also have HMOs on my desk ;-) It used to be an argument that the Rigol offers zoom in stopped ROLL mode which I've missed with many other scopes. A feature, that I've needed for the job daily and which I know from the Agilents.I never really needed roll mode but even old LeCroy scopes (i.e. WaveRunner LT) could zoom into stopped (and running) roll mode.QuoteI now only buy Windows scopes, simply because they offer the best performance. It's very convenient to run VB, C++ or Mathlab code directly on the scope, and having flexible networking and storage (not just limited to USB drives with FAt32 file system) is a bonus, too. Every high end scope runs Windows these days, it's simply the best way to get all the capabilities in the scope. The only time I've seen Windows scopes crashing was when there was something wrong with the hardware, but I've seen the same on non-Windows scopes, too. Aside from the original HP/Agilent Infiniiums (54800 Series?) which ran Windows 95/98 and were dreadfully unreliable.

author: Gunb
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2015, 10:28:15 pm
content: #1: Well, that's not a simple way to quote but very uncomfortable. At mikrocontroller.net you simply have to mark a sentence and click the "quote marked sentence". Ready. No manual edit.#2: Yes, think it's a design issue that is influenced by HF.#3: -#4: Agree ;-)#5: Roll mode was important for me since I was developing electronic blasting systems with low frequency signals for more than ten years. The communication was recorded in roll mode and analyzed stopped by zooming in. The Agilent was comfortable for doing this, the Rigol also. Many scopes for about 2000,-€ do not offer this, at least a few years ago.#6: Well, Windows is not the most efficient OS. There are faster operating systems which offer more flexibility. Embedded Linux has got a realtime option as well as QNX. Matlab used to run under Linux first and still has a Linux based command shell. Hameg implements their own proprietary operating system, think R&S is doing also, Rigol seems to use a OS different from Windows, too. Many TVs run Embedded Linux, free of charge, enables cheaper products. The disadvantage of Windows is that it is not completely open to the developer, opposed to Linux. Makes it much easier to implement reliable code. FAT32 is not a Windows based filesystem only. The devices I've developed for the past years emulating a FAT32 when connected to PC via USB. So, it's simple and has got much more advantages to use Linux or other systems than Windows.Currently Microsoft seems to perform to many changes regarding the complete product segment. They want to be innovative, but it's a horror for developers under pressure, when everything seems to flow away in short. There has to be a constant.

author: The Chump
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2015, 10:47:15 pm
content: I love my DS4054. When you absolutely have to capture every nano-second edge on your kW PFC or class D audio ampllifier+SMPS over a few 50Hz cycles to find the one in a bazillion which made your prototype go BANG then there is no substitute for lotsa memory.If memory is so cheap these days then why don't the big boys put 140Mpt on theirsCheersAlex

author: XFDDesign
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2015, 10:51:11 pm
content: Quote from: The Chump on April 07, 2015, 10:47:15 pmDoes your Class D work qualify for "professional use"? Has the scope ever crashed on you? I'm suspect that the crashing is something that happens mainly with these decoders (I haven't had enough evidence or info to determine this).

author: The Chump
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 07, 2015, 11:07:48 pm
content: Quote from: XFDDesign on April 07, 2015, 10:51:11 pmClass D amps is what I do for a living - pretty big ones. I can't remember it crashing on me, and I find it perfectly easy to drive for what I need. I only use the decoders a little bit because it's quicker than dusting off my cheapo logic anayzer.CheersAlex

author: alank2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2015, 12:16:48 am
content: I too love my DS4014. I probably don't use it as much as others do, but it does all I ask of it.I agree that the decoders are not the fastest, but I use a Saleae LA for stuff I want to decode anyway.I don't think the fan noise is as bad as everyone makes of it. I agree that it is noisy, but it could be a lot worse. I don't even know that I'll bother fussing with the fan even when it is out of warranty.What sold me on it is that I *love* the DS2000 series except that it didn't have 4 channels. The DS4014 has 4 channels and can do 4GSa with channels 1 and 3 on, or 2GSa with all four channels on.I can't say I hate anything about it.

author: XFDDesign
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2015, 12:53:24 am
content: Quote from: alank2 on April 08, 2015, 12:16:48 amHas it crashed on you?So far, the biggest obvious minus it has is the lack of AC triggering. The Firmware issue is still being determined.

author: alank2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2015, 01:09:27 am
content: Quote from: XFDDesign on April 08, 2015, 12:53:24 amNot yet. I'm on firmware 00.02.02.01.01. Is there anything newer yet?

author: XFDDesign
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2015, 01:24:50 am
content: Not according to their Twitter operator.

author: H.O
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2015, 05:28:18 am
content: QuoteWhat type of AC triggering is it lacking? It has AC line triggering and AC trigger coupling.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2015, 05:42:46 am
content: Quote from: Gunb on April 07, 2015, 10:28:15 pmYes, SMF (the forum software the EEV Blog forum uses) isn't the most comfortable. But by now I'm used to adding the "quote" tags by hand.QuoteInteresting. What about the HMOs, do they offer zoom in stopped roll mode?QuoteThat may well be, but being "the fastest" doesn't really matter for a scope.QuoteYou don't need a realtime OS for a scope.Quote*All* high-end scopes and even many advanced midrange scopes run Windows. Agilent's scopes do. Tek's scopes do, LeCroy's scopes do, R&S scopes do. There's not a single one running Linux. Even many entry level scopes (i.e. the DSOX2k) run Windows, albeit an embedded version.LeCroy once had their own proprietary OS in the 90's which they gave up for VxWorks, but not long after they changed completely to Windows and stayed there for nearly 15 years now. R&S has traditionally used Windows, not just in their scopes, but also in other instruments like signal generators and spectrum analyzer. They're with Windows since the 3.11 days.Rigol and Siglent use Linux but this is simply because to keep costs down, and both are clearly suffering from problems with their software (which shows that developing for Linux isn't easy). Siglent's new highend scope SDS3000 (aka LeCroy WaveSurfer 3000) runs Windows.QuoteNot really. Most developers don't need an open source OS, what they need are stable APIs they can develop against and which won't already be obsolete in 6 months time.It may well be that most TVs run Linux (well, most modern TVs also suck, because they come with buggy firmware and a horrible UI), but that simply is irrelevant for scopes.And despite its open-ness, Linux is a pain to develop for, especially if you have to support multiple distributions. BTDT. It's not fun.Linux' strength is it's free (which makes it great for low budget or hobby projects), and it's modularity makes it perfect for devices with very low resources (i.e. TVs, broadband routers and such). However, the cost savings for being free can be quickly eaten up by the cost of additional man hours to make a project work, which means in the end often the cost of Windows isn't really an issue.QuoteFAT32 *is* a MS filesystem developed for Windows 95. It's supported by Linux but it's chronically unreliable, can't handle large files, and can't really handle large storage devices. A Windows scope however also supports NTFS and exFAT, and any storage medium formatted in any of those formats can be plugged into any other PC and read. Linux supports other file systems like ext3/4, btfs and xfs, but none of them can't be read in Windows (out of the box), and Windows is what runs on most PCs.Windows is not open source but the main advantage is that it has some of the best software development tools available for it. It's also dead easy to develop for Windows thanks to a set of standardized APIs (an area where Linux still sucks). It's also the OS with by far the largest amount of software available, not just commercially but also open source, and so far had pretty good long-term support.QuoteWindows has always been one of the most stable software platforms, much more so than Linux. Which is one of the reasons why it's the standard OS for businesses around the world.Yes, Nadella has brought in a lot of changes and we'll have to wait how they work out, but even he's aware that businesses want stability, and businesses are still Microsoft's biggest customers. Nadella certainly won't ignore that, and if he does then I'l doubt he'll last long as CEO.

author: Karel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2015, 07:36:04 am
content: Nope, microsoft has changed their api's many times. Linux on the contrary has a very stable userspace api, it will not break programs.Microsoft has always been busy to make their software as incompatible as possible. There is the way the whole world are doing things and there is the microsoft way.Linux is the most used operating system in the world. The only exception is on the desktop. This is not because windows is better. It's because microsoft is a convicted monopolist who has made vendor-lockin their first priority.We will never buy instruments that's running some version of windows because they are a security thread. One day, somebody put an infected usb-stick in your nice windows scope and, because you connected your scope the network, al your windows pc's are infected.No thank you. I leave this feature to our competitors :-) Thanks to the fact that most engineers are ignorant regarding this fact, they will catch the malware, we will not.

author: Gunb
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2015, 08:02:32 am
content: Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on April 08, 2015, 05:42:46 amI know that. Doesn't mean that I like it. Btw most of the R&S scopes are made by Hameg. Had a few Agilents over the years, and know very well how to reproduce the crashes. So, it's not as stable as you say.Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on April 08, 2015, 05:42:46 amNo, exactly the reason why I've kept the Rigol DS4k after testing it carefully.Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on April 08, 2015, 05:42:46 amI know, didn't say that it's needed for a scope. But the option is available. Makes it more interesting for other measurement purposes than Windows CE / Mobile /whatever.Had a project where the fastest Xilinx FPGA had to be used for HF measurement in realtime, controlled by a PowerPC board we've developed. Nobody would use Windowsfor that purpose. Kernel adaptations required as well as many steps for the final product. Windows? Never!Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on April 08, 2015, 05:42:46 amWrong. Embedded developers often need access to the kernel or other parts of the OS, especially when complex functionality is an issue. APIs are sufficient as long as they offer whatthe programmer needs, otherwise not helpful.Completely wrong, there's nothing completely obsolete every 6 months. I'm talking about Embedded Linux, not Linux as Ubuntu, OpenSuse , Debian...The difference is that I as a developer build my own Linux, consisting of my own build Kernel, the roofile system I need for the device, and implement the drivers I need. Such a system is made for several years, it has nothing to do with the Linux versions that appear every 6 months or 5 years as LTE releases.Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on April 08, 2015, 05:42:46 amI did not state the opposite.Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on April 08, 2015, 05:42:46 amEspecially when developing embedded systems with an OS it's much better to use open source for special purposes since APIs do offer only limited functionality. I've been at Automotive a few years, nobody runs Windows because of safety related issues. The system must be open to do verification and meet the safety related needs.In the mining sector where blast equipment has to work reliable and save no Windows will be used but embedded Linux because of open source.The company I'm working for now also uses Linux since the drivers for the PCIExpress cards we've developed can be implemented much easier than with any Windows on the market.QuoteWhat? I'm implementing under Windows in C++ and C# as well as Linux based firmware. Linux supports all filesystems without problems. Don't see any a reason to switch to Windows because of that. Made a few devices with Embedded Linux that can be connected to a PC using FAT32.BTW: the Agilent MSO I used for many years crashed frequently when storing on an external USB stick with FAT32. No update available up to now.QuoteIt is fun. I build my own kernel, drivers, rootfilesystem and have got access to every part of hardware. I design my own embedded boards with ARM controllers, memory and can set up the system to my needs from scratch with anything I want. I can exchange the kernel easely, have got many powerful tools without paying any fees.Don't really know what you mean! Try all these things with MS products, in the end you depend on them and pay much money.QuoteHonestly, I don't know any serious developer who would agree with this statement. Most people which make such statements have only used Windows for years, like there toy colorful GUI but and are to lazy to start with a new concept again.Further on you should differ between Linux running on PCs which are very stable and Embedded Linux which is made by the developers by using kernel buildsystems, buildroot, bootloaders,... which is absolutely nothing to do with the PC Linux releases.Windows 3.11 wasn't stable, Windows 95/98/ME weren't stable since the background was DOS, Windows NT/2000/XP have been much better, Windows Vista was annoying with it's UAC, Windows 7 is much better but not as save as Vista with the deafult settings since the UAC was castrated a bit. Windows 8 was a horror for developers because of the fucking GUI and missing taskbar. All of our developers awaited 8.1 to switch back to earlier GUI. For what should Windows 10 be good for?Yes, Windows is the standard for businesses around the world, but surely not because it's the most stable platform. Most PCs companies order PCs with preinstalled operating system. Makes it easier for companies or even at home for normal users. So it's not an objective point of view.Has nothing to do with Embedded Linux on embedded systems.The devices I know running Windows do not use the standard Windows but adapted Windows CE /Mobile/Phone/... for embedded controllers, which differs completely from the Windows we use on a PC.Makes sense to use Windows on PCs, do it myself by implementing apps in Visual Studio for years. For embedded processors/controllers with MMU building your own Linux is much more comfortable. A driver which is not offered by MS or whoelse I will implement myself much easier than relating on MS. MS based devices are more expensive for the customer. Don't say that they are of bad quality but also not better.Running VB, C#,... apps an a scope is not an argument to me. They should work as measurement devices and nothing else.RgdsGunb

author: Gunb
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2015, 08:14:27 am
content: Quote from: Karel on April 08, 2015, 07:36:04 amYes! Too many times!Quote from: Karel on April 08, 2015, 07:36:04 amYES, YES, YES!!!Quote from: Karel on April 08, 2015, 07:36:04 amYes. If MS says the circle is squared, a circle has to be squared! If I only look at MS Office since release 2007 and how they drive me crazy since I'm missing the menus and toolbar!!!The user is forced to change his thinking, no matter if he wants or not! Good reason to work with OpenOffice, LibreOffice. They don't think of the guys who have to use their products. Hey, I'mnot earning my money with adapting myself to MS products all day long!!!QuoteAbsolutely right!Thanks for your real words!RgdsGunb

author: XFDDesign
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2015, 10:49:56 am
content: Quote from: H.O on April 08, 2015, 05:28:18 amComparing spec-to-spec on TEquipment.net, AC Triggering was not listed on the DS4K while it was on the LeCroy.On the whole OS debate, one can simply not connect the windows scope to the network. Security issues solved (also because you have to have admin privileges to run the scope software, few Net Admins will ever do this to your account). My TDS5032B died, not because of the scope part of itself. It died because fundamentally it was not a scope. It was a consumer PC that had a scope card glued onto it. It was my original beef with such scopes: they're computers first, and instruments a very distant second. The typical consumer PC is to have a lifetime of 3-5 years and boy does it show in this case. It's the "computer" nature of the device that ruins it. The OS is merely the window dressing. Embedded systems which are self-contained are just fine by my standards. It's when these things are made out to be computers first, that things go down hill.At my day job, the problem with my home/second-job scope is seen pretty often: we have about 5-6 of these PC based scopes (TDS5000s and TDS7000s), and 3 of these are dead for various PC based problems. Problems, which we cannot simply "throw out" the old PC and replace it, because the instrument is built around an irreplaceable $500 PC. My rule is, if it is based on a standard consumer computer, expect 3-5 years out of the instrument. When I look at the Agilent MSO3k series or whatever it is, well it's a PC with windows. I expect it to have no more than maybe 5 years of life in the instrument. Not because of Windows, but because of the PC. Sticking a PC to an expensive instrument does nothing but deliberately put a weak link in the chain that is your instrument.

author: Sailor
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2015, 11:24:04 am
content: @OPI had a Rigol MSO4034 to check out for a month or so. I saw all the things that have been bought up so far in this thread, but one other problem was an absolute deal-breaker for me is the operation of the cursors. Measuring a delta-t requires thatbothcursors be visible on the screenat the same time. So if you capture a long waveform and you want to zoom-and-pan to one point and accurately set the first cursor, then zoom-pan to another point and expect the delta-t to be displayed, you're sh*t out of luck.

author: Gunb
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2015, 11:35:02 am
content: Quote from: Sailor on April 08, 2015, 11:24:04 amYes and no! The issue you describe was one of the first things I've complained about when I bought it approx. 3 years ago. I asked German support team and they've confirmed this issue. Then they reported it to Bejing and a few months later I've got an update which solved this problem.It seems that the firmware on your test device was very old. This bug should not be there anymore.RgdsGunb

author: XFDDesign
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2015, 11:36:31 am
content: Quote from: Sailor on April 08, 2015, 11:24:04 amI assume you got the crashes then? Could you tell me what the conditions were when the crashes occurred?

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2015, 11:36:34 am
content: Quote from: Karel on April 08, 2015, 07:36:04 amI'm sorry but that is nonsense. Microsoft has very stable APIs, Win32 for example is with us for almost two decades, together with a constantly evolving but still backward compatible set of other APIs for almost everything.Linux on the other hand has very few APIs, and they change like mad.Long-term support has always been a strengths of Windows. You can still run most software from 15 years ago on Windows 8 (aside from some low level tools and programs where the developer has circumvented APIs). Good luck with that on Linux. Just try to use some older Nvidia drivers with a modern kernel.The Linux platform is getting better in this regard, and has already made serious improvements (i.e. Kernel APIs), but since a a Linux installation is essentially a collection of various more or less independent projects (Linux is only the kernel), there isn't much outside the kernel space.QuoteNot really. MS has in the past tried to hinder compatibility with non-MS products, but in terms of a platform, backward compatibility has always been one of the strong points of Windows.QuoteYes, Linux is probably the most used OS in the world, but it's main dominance is in the embedded world, which is an entirely different world. It also has a strong position in the server space, especially in the low end and high end (while MS caters more for the mid-range).BTW, MS is not a monopolist, that's BS. MS has been convicted of certain anti-competitive practices in the past, which, while not less despicable, isn't the same. But that was a long time ago, and since then MS has opened up quite a bit.QuoteReally, if that's the case then you should blame an obviously incompetent IT department. It does not matter what OS a test instrument runs, if it's connected to the same network with internet access as standard office PCs then someone obviously doesn't get network security and would probably better suited for a different job. Also permitting people to plug just any USB stick in a computer or instrument - that's a big no-no, network security 101.This aside, just because a test instrument does not run Windows but Linux doesn't mean it's more secure, in fact, it might actually be more vulnerable. A lot of critical security flaws (i.e. SSL) also affect Linux, but while I can easily patch a scope that runs a standard version of Windows, with a Linux scope I'm dependent if the manufacturer provides a fixed software. If he does, fine, if not, then tough luck.QuoteIf I were you I wouldn't count on that. Especially if by now you still haven't realized that staying secure is independent of the OS, and that nowadays all operating systems and all software that's in wide use is a target.

author: Sailor
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2015, 11:51:05 am
content: Quote from: Gunb on April 08, 2015, 11:35:02 amWell, that's very strange. I had the MSO only about 12 months ago. When I complained/described the problem the Australian distributor got on to the factory and the answer came back that 'That's the way it is, that's the way it was designed, and it will not be altered...'So I bought an Agilent MSO7054B from a nice man in Canada, and when it arrived I discovered that it still had 3 years of an extended warranty leftI was staggered by Rigols response. The FW rev IIRC was only one behind the current at the time. I think they gave me the very latest update and I installed it, but to no avail....What rev is yours?

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2015, 12:18:44 pm
content: Quote from: Gunb on April 08, 2015, 08:02:32 amMaybe you don't like it, but fact is it works.QuoteReally? I thought only the HMO scopes (Hameg) were made in CZ, and that the RTM/RTE/RTO is made in Germany. But I might be wrong.QuoteWhich ones? I mostly work with 9000 Series and 90000 Series scopes, and while the UI is still awful they are pretty much rock-solid. So how did you get to crash one?Due to my work I'm working in various places, and aside from some low end boxes most scopes are Windows based, and seriously, if they weren't rock solid and would crash regularly then they would not last long in most of these labs.QuoteWell, the option would also be available to implement a coffee maker into a scope, that doesn't mean it makes sense. VxWorks (which is a very good RTOS) has long been replaced by Windows in most scopes that used it (LeCroy, Agilent), without loosing any functionality.QuoteThat's all nice and well, but that's not exactly the same as a high end scope.Quote(Emphasis mine)Exactly,Embedded Developers. Not application developers (which develop the various applications on a typical high end scope).You're comparing Apples vs Oranges.QuoteAgain, your're comparing Apples vs Oranges.But since you write that your Embedded Linux is made for several years, I assume that means you don't update it during that time?QuoteMaybe, but at the end of the day APIs get the job done in a reasonable amount of time without having to re-invent the wheel. Just talk to some developers who had to port their software to Linux, and you will very likely experience a completely new level of swearing.QuoteAgain, Apples vs Oranges. Safety critical software development has its own rules and requirements which are completely different from scope software.QuoteFirst, I was talking about that the FAT32 file system is shit, not Linux's support of it. But that aside, exFAT support in Linux is still very poor, and NTFS support works but is still limited.QuoteWhich MSO was that?QuoteWith "stable" I meant stable as a platform (i.e. APIs remain unchanged for a long time, good backward compatibility) and not "stable" as in "does not crash", I probably should have made that clearer I admit.I know that Linux can be rock solid as well (unfortunately, many commerical embedded applications often aren't), no doubt about that.QuoteNot really. The only difference in UAC is that in Windows 7 there are various levels (in Vista there's just two, on or off) and that the default setting is weaker than UAC in Vista when enabled. That's all. No "castration".QuoteIt is, in stable as a platform (i.e. changes slowly). That's a pretty important thing.QuoteThat's nonsense, sorry. Most midsize and large companies order PCs without OS, as they usually use corporate licensing which is cheaper and gives them all they need, and then put their own standardized corporate OS image onto it. Some order PCs with Windows as it can sometimes be cheaper than the same PC without OS, but still don't use the Windows license that comes with the computer.QuoteWell, for me (and many of my fellow engineers) it's important as we can attach with our software to the digitizer data stream before it gets to the scope application and do the data processing we need, all in one box. You just can't do that with an external PC at the same speed.We can also do some certification testing and create the test reports directly on the scope, no extra PC necessary.Quote from: XFDDesign on April 08, 2015, 10:49:56 amThat's overly pessimistic, and has no relation with reality. Again, I can't speak for Tek's defect rate, but PCs easily survive a decade or longer, even many of the crappy consumer PCs that most home users buy (I once talked to a recycling facility that recycles tons of old computers, and they said the defect rate is less than 10% for coprorate PCs over 6 years of age). Maybe Tek has used crap components, but then that's just Tek.In the lifetime of a scope, the PC part is probably the least critical part. For example, on my LeCroy WavePro 7300A, the PC is a intel mainboard that I can get for less than $30 on ebay - even new! If the ADCs die however, I'll be out of pocket of probably north of $3k for the part alone. SHould that put me off from buying the scope? Hell no!QuoteNo, it's not. It's an Embedded box running Windows CE on some SOC (ARM?).QuoteI don't know what life span a MSO3k will have but I'd expect it to last at least 10 years wiithout failure.As I said before, your fears are not rooted in reality.

author: Gunb
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2015, 12:18:53 pm
content: Quote from: Sailor on April 08, 2015, 11:51:05 amWill check it in the evening again & reply ;-)

author: Karel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2015, 01:01:07 pm
content: Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on April 08, 2015, 11:36:34 amYouare full of BS.The EC is also investigating Microsoft's actions to manipulate the voteof the International Organization for Standardization / International ElectrotechnicalCommission on the recent standardization of Office "Open" XML ("OOXML"). As reportedwidely in the press and on the Internet, Microsoft's manipulation of the standards setting processin favor of OOXML included financial inducements, threats, misleading information, andcommittee-stuffing.committee-stuffing. These investigations are compelling examples of Microsoft's continuedmisconduct related to its monopolies in operating systems and other products.http://www.ecis.eu/documents/Finalversion_Consumerchoicepaper.pdfMicrosoft's Campaign To Destroy DR-DOSMicrosoft's Anticompetitive Per Processor License FeesMicrosoft's Retaliation And Price Discrimination Against IBMMicrosoft's Organized Collective Boycott Against IntelMicrosoft's Elimination Of Word PerfectMicrosoft's Deceptive WISE Software ProgramMicrosoft's Elimination Of NetscapeMicrosoft's Attempts To Extinguish JavaMicrosoft's Elimination Of Rival Media PlayersMicrosoft's Campaign Against Rival Server Operating SystemsMicrosoft's Failure To Comply With The Final JudgmentMicrosoft's Campaign of Patent FUD against Linux and Open Source SoftwareMicrosoft's False Promises of Interoperability\http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Corp_v_Commissionhttp://www.justice.gov/atr/cases/f3800/msjudgex.htmhttp://www.europa-nu.nl/id/vhrxmov7fvzg/agenda/delivery_of_a_judgment_in_case_t_201_04?ctx=vg9wikc5q2yt&v=1&tab=1http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SCO%E2%80%93Linux_controversies#Microsoft_funding_of_SCO_controversyhttp://www.eweek.com/c/a/Linux-and-Open-Source/BayStar-Confirms-Microsoft-Connection-to-SCO-Investmenthttp://arstechnica.com/business/2006/10/7932/

author: XFDDesign
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2015, 01:33:06 pm
content: Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on April 08, 2015, 12:18:44 pmFor it not to be "rooted in reality" it would have to be full of make-believe. Adding my own scope to the count, 4 dead systems out of 7, while poor for a meaningful statistic to the larger TE space, is a 57.1% failure rate, translated to "rooted in reality" numbers, that's about $30,000 USD thrown out the window for something with a short shelf life. If that objective quantity is of no consequence to you, then it is likely that either you're being intentionally evasive, or you bleed money in excess. I would personally hope it's the later case.MTBF is a thing, too, that is rooted in reality. Depreciation for equipment is rolled out over 3 to 5 years depending on the bean counters. It should be no surprise, then, that most consumer and commercial computing gear (even your $30 intel board which doees not solve the root problem) is not designed for longevity. MTBF of 3-5 years is not a guarantee that every unit will be dead in 3-5 years, it is not a guarantee that your month-old system will not be dead today. You have a PC that is 10 years old, cool. I'm sure that I could find anecdotal evidence of persons with PCs which never lasted one year. (Moreover, if my objective issues are not rooted in reality, your assertion about a 10 year old working computer is irrelevant as well). If the LeCroy does not go the way of proprietary PC design, and generic PC parts can be swapped out, that backs my earlier argument - not refutes it. I can toss out the old computer and stick in a new one. You cannot do that with these Teks.This then follows to a point: You specified that the PC is the least critical part, I challenge you to use the scope without it. It's the "least critical part," and has been designed and integrated as such. Thus what you ascribe to pessimism is my lack of being myopic.As to the Agilent, the one I looked at ran windows XP, not CE, and boots up like any other computer. It's been a while and so the series might be muddled as I indicated earlier.Lastly, you expect an instrument to last 10 years. I expect it to last longer, given how my old 475 is, and itstillruns to date. So what happens when your instrument goes tits up 5 years in, and suddenly you find that the big name vendor has decided not to provide any support to it after all?

author: Gunb
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2015, 01:45:13 pm
content: Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on April 08, 2015, 12:18:44 pmGermany = developmentCZ = only productionExplained that to you month ago.Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on April 08, 2015, 12:18:44 pmalready namedQuote from: Wuerstchenhund on April 08, 2015, 12:18:44 pmout of context: statement was that they're not more or less stable than other scopes.Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on April 08, 2015, 12:18:44 pmsystem integrator = OS related set up /devs -> mainly kernelspaceapplication engineer = app dev -> mainly userspaceboth: embedded engineers / developers whatever. Counting peanuts now?Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on April 08, 2015, 12:18:44 pmyou: discussing Windows OS for PCs, Linux for PCs, update releases for PCsothers: OS for measurement devicesFunny.Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on April 08, 2015, 12:18:44 pmfunny again. you started the discussion of Windows / Linux and update cycles that belong to PC based versions, not embedded. why that, if we relate on scopes? even scopes use more Windows Embedded than standard Windows. Choose if you want to discuss oranges or apples, not both at the same time.updating an embedded linux:system: only if necessary, seldomapplication: new features or bugssnapshot: contains the system as well as the toolchain and app. kernel not needed to be updated often since the platform is the same for the lifetime of the device. application is maintained during the lifetime.So difficult? Or not experienced?QuoteAnd? Doing that into the other direction is exactly the same. But that's not the issue of the discussion.QuoteOK, that's an argument. In this case it makes sense. But it's a special case.On the other hand if I would use a Linux based system I can't see any reason why one should not run C/C++ apps, Python scripts or whatever. The connection to the hardware does not depend on the OS the scope is running, it's part of the hardware design.However, a less agressive discussion would be more helpful.Different point of views are not a crime

author: XFDDesign
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2015, 01:50:23 pm
content: Quote from: Gunb on April 08, 2015, 01:45:13 pmDon't visit the US anytime soon.

author: Gunb
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2015, 01:58:40 pm
content: Quote from: XFDDesign on April 08, 2015, 01:50:23 pmReally? so hard?

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2015, 02:00:45 pm
content: Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on April 08, 2015, 05:42:46 amSure about that?http://www.tek.com/support/faqs/linux-source-code-linux-source-noticeThis FAQ applies to:Product Series: MSO2000 / DPO2000, MSO3000 / DPO3000, MSO4000 / DPO4000, MDO3000, MDO4000

author: XFDDesign
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2015, 02:02:38 pm
content: Quote from: Gunb on April 08, 2015, 01:58:40 pmThe US is being overrun with nationalist Bigots. Differences of opinions get you physically assaulted, and legally plundered if you're from the wrong group.

author: Gunb
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2015, 02:06:53 pm
content: Quote from: XFDDesign on April 08, 2015, 02:02:38 pmThat's unfortunate. Sometimes I think the world is too global and turning too fast. However, let's try not to follow and keep peace.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2015, 02:41:00 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on April 08, 2015, 02:00:45 pmWell, I said many mid-range scopes, not all of them, and none of the scopes you listed is a high end scope, so yes, I'm pretty sure.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2015, 03:20:41 pm
content: Quote from: Gunb on April 08, 2015, 01:45:13 pmI don't remember that (sure it was me?). Not that it really matters where they are made, though.QuoteYou only mentioned a "20k€ Keysight 4054 1GHZ" so what were the other few? Especially what Agilent high end scopes (considering that the 9k and 90k Series I work with every day is rock solid) did you use and how can they be crashed?And what was the firmware/software version, and have you checked if there was an update?QuoteYeah, funny, unless you realize that the Windows on more advanced scopes is exactly the same as on most standard PCs.QuoteSimply because the discussion started with some people (incl you) stating they don't want Windows on a scope, to which I replied that all highend scopes run Windows (and btw, full Windows, not just Embedded as many low end/lower midrange scopes do!), and that, afar from stated opinion that everything running Windows must constantly crash and burn, these scopes run absolutely stable and reliable.Same with the security aspect. It seems some people's Windows "knowledge" is stuck somewhere between Windows 95 and early WindowsXP. Same with IT security.QuoteI am well aware how embedded software development works, thanks. But I still don't know what relevance this is supposed to have on the question if Windows on scopes is a good or bad thing.QuoteNo, it's not. That's the thing.QuoteSo what is it in your opinion?QuoteQuoteI'm not aggressive, and I'm open to any argument that is rooted in the real world. However, I don't consider outdated prejudice which might have had some relevance 15 years ago but has long been superseded by subsequent events to be part of that.And actually I don't care much what OS runs on a scope as long as I could do with it what I need.But all this aside, the simple fact remains that no highend scopes run Windows, and these are scopes which are generally used for the most demaning tasks a scope gets thrown at (guess what OS LeCroy's 100GHz scope runs?), and I'm sure you don't believe that MS has bribed all scope manufacturers to sell Windows highend scopes only. Also, if Linux development was such a piece of cake as you make it then please explain why not one manufacturer has taken up Linux for their highend scopes? Why do we see Linux only in simpler/cheaper scopes then? I mean, all these big names developing Windows drivers for their digitizers and other proprietary hardware, why are they not using Linux then when it's in your opinion so much easier to develop hardware drivers for it? I guess LeCroy, Keysight and R&S must be completely idiots, right?If it possibly can't be the advantages I listed (stable platform, stable APIs, great development tools), what else is it?QuoteWell, at least not for now in our geographic areas. Can't say the same about all places I've been recently, though.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2015, 03:47:51 pm
content: Quote from: XFDDesign on April 08, 2015, 01:33:06 pmIt's simply not relevant, especially not when you haven't stated how old the individual scopes were, what exactly failed, how they were used, if software has been updated, what response you got from the mfg and so on.QuoteI don't know what it is, all what I know as someone who works in a dozen or so various labs all around the world with a large number of Windows scopes, whiith their life cycle (when bought, when repaired, when calibrated, when disposed) recorded. I'm sorry but your assumptions are not rooted in reality. Simple as that. I have to admit that there are only a handful Teks, though, and these are mostly smaller scopes.If you think about it, it also doesn't make sense. What manufacturer in his right mind would build very expensive (we're talking often in excess of $40k per scope here!) which only last a few years? The T&M market is not the same as selling PCs to consumers, reputation is a big factor, and much more so in the high end market.I do get the feeling that you already made yuur mind up, though, and of course you're free to dismiss what I say completely. All I can offer is my experience, it's up to you what you make of it.QuoteAs I said, you seem to have made your mind up already, so there's not much point in expanding this. Just to add, most highend scopes are much longer in service with the original purchaser than other kit. I regularly see 12+ year old Agilent Infiniiums which only saw calibration and maybe a replaced backup battery. Call it anectotal evidence but I can say that my sample size is pretty large and much more likely to present a valid picture than just 7 random devices.Really, if you want to avoid Windows, then I'd say avoid the WaveSurfer 3000 (it runs Windows 7 Embedded) and go for the DS4000 or a Tek (which apparently runs Linux, too).QuoteThen I'll learn the lesson that the vendor obviosuly doesn't stand by its products and I buy my replacement from somewhere else. I certainly wouldn't be as naive to believe that the particular scope died just because it was based on Windows or uses PC technology.

author: XFDDesign
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2015, 04:18:07 pm
content: Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on April 08, 2015, 03:47:51 pmOne major manufacturer of ATE gear told the largest semiconductor manufacturer in the world, "You will pay what we ask for the test systems you will buy." In this case, the semi manufacturer did a teardown of the ATE's system, determined the core part of the system they needed had a cost of one amount, and offered 2x as a sale price for the system they needed, rather than 40x for a system with lots of useless periphery. As one of the dirty 5 analog IC companies, I helped in the design of the analog signal chain for this semi mfg's in-house testers. Poof, there went the perceived impervious quality of thie ATE vendor. It's been a deeply costly decision for them. What manufacturer in their right mind would say such things? Any manfuacturer which believes itself to be in a natural monopoly and is immune from competition. Never underestimate the stupidity of large companies.QuoteThis is an evasion.The compass is leaning towards the LeCroy WaveJet - it includes GPIB out of the box which is a value add to me. It is 500MHz for the price of the DS4034. The contention is the sample rate (1GSPS vs 4), and thus how meaningful the data is that has been collected by each instrument.QuoteNot an argument.QuoteWe're not talking about high-end scopes. The DS4k is, subjectively, the low end of the mid.QuoteYou're confusing me with the other guy. My beef is with PC based systems. WinCE, embedded linux, etc, are not my problem points or concerns. You correctly pointed out that linux is no angel for security. I don't write kernel drivers or some such, so most of that discussion has nothing to do with me.QuoteDismissing the "windows" point again, you have not answered my question, as you stated the PC is the least critical part. How well will you be able to use your scope with the PC side being dead?

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2015, 04:36:06 pm
content: Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on April 08, 2015, 12:18:44 pmTest equipment running on a PC motherboard is just asking for problems (unless you write the equipment off quickly). PC hardware is made to last for 3 to 5 years. Ofcourse things can be done to postpone problems (using better fans) but the thermal requirements of a PC are massive. I recall a thread about a Lecroy scope which runs faster with the cover open because the CPU isn't thermal throttling itself continuously due to poor airflow.Gettting parts for an old PC is also difficult. Memory, CPU sockets, interfaces change every few years. If you want to repair or extend you have to rely on getting antiquated hardware from Ebay. And god forbid the hard drive crashes and you have no resque disk...So far PC hardware. On to Windows which has it's maintenance issues as well. Starting with anti-virus software. Do you really want to slow a piece of test equipment down further by having to run anti-virus software (or have to wait for it to update before the system is useable)? Also, due to the nature of Windows a lot of network services are active by default so security threats are abundant. If your IT department is run by a member of BOFHA you'll find Windows XP (and earlier) machines are actively banned from the network so there goes the network connectivity which made exchanging files and printing so easy (which is one of the primary reasons you may want to use Windows on a piece of test equipment).I have (had) my fair share of PC based equipment. If I see a PC motherboard sticking out or the sign of PC style expansion slots on a potentially interesting piece of equipment I'm going to think very hard about the maintenaince involved to keep it running.

author: Gunb
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2015, 06:49:17 pm
content: Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on April 08, 2015, 03:20:41 pmOf course. Asked you for your nickname. You explained it to me. Pretty sure.Finished. No time to comment these endless statement follower. Btw the quotation of this forum is a horror. Not userfriendly.

author: Gunb
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2015, 06:51:26 pm
content: Quote from: Sailor on April 08, 2015, 11:51:05 amChecked it just a moment ago again, works fine.My firmware is 00.02.01.If you know the settings you've used to do the test I can try to reproduce it for you.RgdsGunb

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2015, 07:41:46 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on April 08, 2015, 04:36:06 pmGenerally, this is utter nonsense, sorry. Maybe that's true for the consumer crap you can buy everywhere (including some of the "high end" components gamers are so fond of). But no-one is talking about that stuff. That's for consumers.But please go ahead and tell the customers of industrial PC makers like Advantech, Kontron and others that never ever a PC can possibly last longer than 3 to 5 years.I guess you've never seen a good PC then?QuoteAny links? Quite frankly that sound bogus. By now I've seen almost every model of LeCroy Windows scope (aside from the LabMaster), and LeCroy does know a bit or two about how to design a scope to not overheat, especially since they are using standard PC platforms in their scopes for almost two decades now.Like with most hearsay stories, I'm pretty sure there's much more to it, like either someone has fiddled with the scope's innards (i.e. upgrade attempts with non-supported parts), or the scope in question was defective and should be repaired. Or do you seriously believe a company like LeCroy would design a scope to throttle due to overheating? Considering that a high end scope usually costs north of $30k, you really think they risk pissing of customers by cutting corners on the cooling system? Really?And quite frankly, the heat and power consumption of the PC part is nothing compared what the ADC blocks in these scopes consume. Even in my LeCroy WavePro with it's Pentium4 Prescott (which was known for running extremely hot) the CPU and board are the least hot parts. The majority of heat comes from the four high speed ADCs and the associated logic. Things that would be in there even if the scope didn't use PC technology but some embedded ARM low power device.QuoteLet's see, the oldest Windows scopes use DDR sdram which is no longer produced but still abundant, as are Socket478 CPUs (Pentium4).This aside, I don'thaveto rely on ebay, as I can just get the parts from the scope manufacturer (LeCroy). It's not different then when a ADC hybrid dies, or any other part of the scope. You really think having non-PC technology (i.e. some ARM based controller) is better? You really think it's easier finding those parts than a PC component used in a scope?QuoteSo what? At least with LeCroy, all I need to save is the calibration data (a few MBs of data). If the drive fails I just buy some other drive (these days probably an SSD), take a generic Windows disk, install Windows, download the scope software from the LeCroy website, and copy the calibration files back. Simples.Now, I already can hear you asking "but what if you didn't backup the calibration data?". Well then the scope won't show precise measurements and needs recalibration, similar to many non-Windows scopes which loose their calibration data when the backup battery dies. Just that with these scopes you rarely can make a quick backup of that data to a USB drive.QuoteOh well, I don't really know where to begin with this. Most highend Windows scopes come with AV software but considering that we're talking about very powerful processors here this really is a non-issue. As it is for probably any PC made in the last 10 years at least. It's no longer 1997 and people are no longer running 300MHz Pentium2 PCs. If your PC is struggling because of AV then youre doing something seriously wrong.I also never had to wait for a scope to update before I could use it, not sure what you're on about. Scopes rarely connect to the internet (and if they do then over a VPN and not directly), so I'm not really sure what you're talking about. Updates are installed when required, which with scopes is less often the case as with desktop PCs people surf the net and do their email and shit on. For the same reason running XP is a non-issue. If your IT admin is stupid enough to connect test instruments (no matter what software they run) directly to the open internet then I can tell you that running XP on a scope is the least of your problems. There's simply no cure for plain stupidity and incompetence. A proper admin gives the lab its own network segment (while allowing print jobs), or just prevent the scope from connecting to the internet in the corporate gateway.Lastly, really everyone should know by now that there isn't really much difference in security between Windows, Linux, Mac or whatever. Parrotting half-truths that may have had even during the Windows95 days had only partial roots in reality is really getting a bit embarassing, seriously. These days attack vectors are much more different than in the old times, and it has become very obvious that the believe that by moving from Windows to Mac or Linux or whatever makes one safer is naive at best. These days there's even a good chance that your cheap WiFi broadband router running Linux is ratting you out.QuoteYour loss, really. There's nothing magically different with PC components then there is with any other piece of electronics, and it's a bit sad how backwards the thinking of some people is, especially considering that this is a very much technology-related forum.As I said, I work with PC based scopes every day, in fact, aside from rare occurrences where I just grab a low end scope I almost exclusively use Windows scopes. And this for a very long time now. I don't want to be rude but it's really a bit silly when people with apparently little to no practical long-term experience with this class of scopes try to convince me that what I see every day for way over a decade now can't possibly be true because PC based scopes all fail within 3 to 5 years. Or when I see PC workstations, PC servers and business PCs lasting for over a decade. Impossible.This is a great forum, but really, trying to discuss Windows scopes (or analog scopes) is like discussing weather events with climate change deniers.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2015, 07:46:57 pm
content: Quote from: Gunb on April 08, 2015, 06:49:17 pmI vagely remember, but I'm sure this was a lot longer than a month ago.QuoteIndeed, it's pretty bad. I always have to re-edit posts just because I misplaced another quotation marker which is pretty annoying. There's still hope that Dave will eventually move to a less horrible scope platform.

author: Gunb
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2015, 07:53:37 pm
content: Months not month. The 's' was missing. But it doesn't matter anymore.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2015, 08:00:43 pm
content: Quote from: XFDDesign on April 08, 2015, 04:18:07 pmCertainly not, but you're essentially implying that all scope manufacturers are stupid, which I'd say is a bit far fetched.QuoteWell, it's a good scope (actually made by Iwatsu, LeCroy just rebadges them). It's also awfully outdated (it's a roughly 12 yr old platform), and has a pretty horrible UI. It's the standard of scope you would find around 10+ years ago in this class, but it's specs are nothing to write home about in this day and age.Given the choice, I'd rather go for a Hameg than for the LeCroy WaveJet.QuoteYou can't argue with irrationality. I can tell you of my experience but I can't make away your idea that all scopes are more or less crap. And I'm certainly not trying.QuoteThat comment was in response to your claim that Windows scopes will be written off after a few years.The DS4000 is clearly entry level, based on its specs it's certainly not midrange. The DS6000 is a midrange scope (or better, Rigol's sad attempt at one).QuoteI meant "critical" in "high probability of failure". Not that the scope can be used without.QuoteThe same way I am able to use a scope where any other part is dead - I send it in for repair.The point is that just because it has a "PC" in it doesn't make it more likely to fail.

author: Gunb
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2015, 08:22:23 pm
content: Forget Star Wars, we've got Scope Wars today.

author: XFDDesign
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2015, 08:45:02 pm
content: Erm LeCroy announced the WaveJet 354T in fall of last year. There is nothing in the way of reviews about this generation. 500MHz analog BW for $4500 and includes GPIB out of the box. Not too hot on the touchscreen, nor the lack of persistence, but its looking to be a better fit. I don't recall touch-screen tech being common on scopes from 12 years ago.QuoteAnd then you find that, as your scope is more than x years old, you're SOL. The PC bits, unless otherwise stated, are not pulled from more rugged bins. They're not rated to +125C operation. They're consumer parts, put into a non-consumer space. They behave as consumer parts. You get consumer reliability. I'm not trying to convince you ditch what you like. I'm telling you my arguments against my using these PC based scopes. I have a $7,300 reason not to do so. My efforts are to not repeat that again. You probably don't have that concern, as you work for some large corp. It isn't coming out of your pocket.QuoteDo you really think your ADC is going to burn up before any PC component? -- specifically on your high-end scopes?QuoteThat...wasn't me?I don't give a shit about windows. I don't give a shit about linux. I don't give a shit about any OS. I have beef with PCs. Why would windows be going out?QuoteQuoteIf the 4k is "low end" then it would follow that the DS1000Z series is "sub-end." Thus, "subjective." The 6k is much ado about nothing over the 4k. The 4k compares reasonably against the TDS5k series, which is Tek's own Mid end series. Tek goesmuch higherbut the existence of the highest end, does not make their mid range stuff become low end. But, relative to the gear you use, even that mid-range is probably low end -- subjectively.Edit: Looking at Iwatsu's site, the LeCroy 354T looks to be the DS-5600 series.

author: Gunb
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2015, 10:37:21 pm
content: Quote from: XFDDesign on April 08, 2015, 08:45:02 pmYou're right, the DS4k is certainly not entry level. We've also got very expensive scopes at the companybut they simply cannot be compared to Rigols.Btw Mark Madels comparison of the Siglent 2000 and the Rigol 2000 reveals a few weak points of the Siglent. See Youtube if interestingfor you.

author: XFDDesign
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2015, 10:45:47 pm
content: Actually maybe you're on to something there. Perhaps since I last was buying scopes, the scale changed from "Low/mid/high/ultra" to "Entry, low-end, mid, high, ultra"? In which case, yeah the DS4k would be low-end, but not entry.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2015, 10:49:53 pm
content: Quote from: Gunb on April 08, 2015, 10:37:21 pmAnd the date of Mark's review and video ?There have been several FW revisions since.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2015, 11:09:13 pm
content: Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on April 08, 2015, 07:41:46 pmActually I have a lot of experience with Advatech and Kontron. It's the cheapest unreliable shit there is out there. Utter crap.If you need reliability get a real server from HP or Dell (in that order).QuoteJust go on internet and look how many people are trying to restore the OS on their oscilloscope or logic analyser because the hard drive failed or a battery went dead. Usually some drivers are required as well. Ofcourse you can always send your equipment back for repair but that cost often exceeds the value.

author: alank2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2015, 11:28:19 pm
content: Jason @ Rigol told me that there repair prices are this - I didn't think it was too bad.Our out-of-warranty repair prices are quite reasonable. It is $250 or 10% of the purchase price, whichever is greater.. plus shipping to/from our repair office in Cleveland, OH.

author: XFDDesign
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 08, 2015, 11:30:30 pm
content: That, no matter how you cut it, is better than Tek's "We do not offer any support or service on that model, as it is discontinued" response.I'm sure they do actually have a support line for the old series, but not for the likes of me.

author: XFDDesign
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 09, 2015, 02:17:00 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on April 08, 2015, 04:36:06 pmFunny you mentioned that...

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 09, 2015, 05:37:28 am
content: Quote from: XFDDesign on April 08, 2015, 08:45:02 pmYes, but the WaveJet 300T is a WaveJet 300A (which came out around 2007) with added touch screen, and the 300A is simply a WaveJet 300 with a few minor improvements (i.e. USB controllers). The scope platform is really ancient.QuoteTouchscreen is about the biggest amongst the few things that have been added to this platform with the recent "facelift".It's not a bad scope, the WaveJets are very reliable, but spec-wise it's outdated, and for that they are overly expensive.QuoteThey're *not* consumer parts. LeCroy for example uses industrial mainboards in its scope, you won't find Asus/Asrock/whatever crap in there.And of course they're not rated for +125C operation, why should they? Other components of a scope aren't as well. Nothing in the DS4000 is, nor in the WaveJet. So why do you expect that for PC parts?QuoteNo, you're just trying to convince me that everything I see and all my experience is wrong based on a few unfounded assumptions.QuoteYou're wrong with that. Even though my work scopes are paid by my clients, my own scope (WavePro 7300A, for which I paid in the region of $5k + import taxes) did come out of my own pocket. As did my secondary scope (a WaveRunner 64Xi, which cost almost the same).QuoteDo you really think your ADC is going to burn up before any PC component? -- specifically on your high-end scopes? Yes, I do, because I've been there with a few scopes where either the ADC hybrid or something in the front end has died. That happens. Not often, but it happens. We got it repaired and got on with our lives.The only PC parts I've seen dying in a scope so far have been hard drives, but they're pretty easy to replace (nowadays we replace them with SSDs).QuoteIf the 4k is "low end" then it would follow that the DS1000Z series is "sub-end." Thus, "subjective." It's not subjective, it's pretty simple based on the scope's capabilities. The DS1000z is entry level as is the DS4000 (although the DS1000z is clearly the lower end, while the DS4000 gears towards the upper end), both are simple scopes which lack any more advanced capabilities expected from a mid-range scopeQuoteThe DS4k is hardly comparable to a TDS5000, which is a midrange Windows scope that has far superior maths and analysis capabilities. Can you do Jitter analysis with a DS4k? No. Can you do Power analysis with a DS4k? Ethernet compliance testing? Disk drive analysis? No. The DS4k offers pretty simple maths and a few basic measurements, but that's it. It doesn't even offer much over a DS1000z in terms of functionality.QuoteYou can call it what you want but these are not my criteria, it's simply the way the scope market is split up. You can make up your own but that doesn't change the fact that the DS4k isn't even near the midrange class.QuoteIf I remember right it's a DS-5500.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 09, 2015, 05:38:51 am
content: Quote from: XFDDesign on April 09, 2015, 02:17:00 amLooks like either a damaged boot sector or like a dead hard drive. Both should be pretty easy to fix.

author: Gunb
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 09, 2015, 07:04:15 am
content: Quote from: tautech on April 08, 2015, 10:49:53 pmYes. I did not take care of the date. And as mentioned a few comments before I think the Siglent is an interesting scope

author: Gunb
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 09, 2015, 07:09:57 am
content: Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on April 09, 2015, 05:38:51 amThen tell him the details what to do instead of writing novels nobody likes and stop this worthless discussion finally.He will be pretty thankful if you can give him real helpful advices. Just that simple.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 09, 2015, 08:28:21 am
content: Quote from: Gunb on April 09, 2015, 07:09:57 amIf you don't like what I write then just don't read it, simple as that.Why are you replying anyways, didn't you just state that you were no longer participating in this discussion?QuoteProbably, but quite frankly this would have been easier with a little less rambling about how crap and unreliable PC technology is and more factual details about what the actual problem is.This picture is the first time we see what's actually wrong, and quite frankly, if you believe to know enough about PC technology to assert its unreliable then fixing simple problems like this should be a piece of cake, really. Unless you don't really know half as much about PC technology as you think you do, in which case making brush widesweeping statement probably isn't such a good idea after all.I'm not very familiar with Tek but my guess is that the scope has a simple IDE hard drive. The first thing I'd do is to remove the drive, connect it to a PC (don't boot into a OS!) and see if the drive powers up and is recognized in the BIOS. If it is then, before any changes to the disk are made, I'd create a disk image.After that we could run some diagnostic tools (usually downloadable from the disk manufacturer's website) to see if the drive has problems. If it has then we connect it to Windows and try to get the calibration and any licensing data off the disk. After that it's buying a new disk (i.e. a PATA SSD), installing Windows, restoring the calibration/license data, and downloading and installing the scope's software.If the drive is fine and a file system check is fine, too, then it's probably just a damaged boot sector, in which case the drive could go back into the scope, which is then booted from a Windows CD and where "fixmbr" is run from the command prompt. However, due to the age of the drive, I'd still replace it with a new one or an SSD.That should be about it.

author: Gunb
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 09, 2015, 08:53:07 am
content: Quote... since that was only related to your comments about Windows, PC blabla and not the whole thread.You should read more relaxed and carefully.QuoteI didn't do that.It's your problem when you mix the opinions of different users all together and answer the wrong answers to the wrong persons.I only mentioned not to like Windows on measurement devices. A personal attitude, not more, not less. The comments of PC crap in scopes haven't come from me.Absolutely unnecessary to tell me which and how many devices run Windows, Linux, whatelse. Have a lot of expensive high end devices in the lab, use them very often. But should I've mentioned that?No, since the opener asked for the DS4k.And that's a scope I own for years now and can't say that I made bad experience, no matter if you like it or not, or if it is high end, low level or six feet under class.Seems very hard for you that not anybody shares your opinion about Rigol.

author: Gunb
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 09, 2015, 09:24:10 am
content: Quote from: XFDDesign on April 06, 2015, 10:55:34 pmSo, coming back to real discussion:Minus:- Noisy fan, replaced it by a PC low noise fan with similar airflow- Had a problem with the timebase encoder. Replaced it with a better one, got it from Rigol for free. First series had this problem, now they use better encoders. Changed it by disassembling the frontend myself at home. Too lazy to send it to service.- Missing search functionality. Would expect that for the money.- Missing PC app for simple things like screenshots etc.- Decoder options to expensive. Especially Hameg / R&S offer much better & faster options for less money for the HMOs.- Noticed that it crashed seldomly when I've pimped it to 500MHz. Don't know if this relates on the cracked fw update, bugs in the firmware or even the hardware. Can finally cleared by people who use the 500MHz-version often. I went back to 100MHz, which works fine without any problems.Positive:Everything else. I'm satisfied using this scope at home.Will not give the advice if it is too expensive or not, or if you should buy a Siglent, Agilent, Tek, R&S, ... that should one decide himself. Today there are interesting competitors. Would test a device before buying.Don't forget to have a service you can contact. It also fixes the price of a measurement device.In the case of Rigol it was helpful. My number one still is Hameg. They reply within 24h, or earlier ;-)RgdsGunb

author: RF-Engineer
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 09, 2015, 11:01:24 am
content: DS4000 Dislikes:1) Loud fan;2) Poor intensity gradient display.Paul

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 09, 2015, 11:52:15 am
content: Quote from: Gunb on April 09, 2015, 08:53:07 amI didn't say it was you in my above comment, did I? So not sure what you're on about.QuoteSo now you're saying I didn't accept your statement saying you're happy with your DS4000? Seriously?Either you really fail most basic reading comprehension miserably, or you're simply obtuse by intention. So which is it?

author: XFDDesign
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 09, 2015, 12:11:25 pm
content: QuoteNo, and neither can my TDS5k, because the option wasn't installed from the factory, and Tek won't sell you a key since the scope is completely unsupported and has been since 2008 or soQuoteOhh tell me, do I need Ethernet compliance testing? Do I need Disk Drive Analysis? Tell me more about me and what I need, as what you need is apparently what I need.QuoteNot at all, you're quite happy with your anecdotal assumptions. I'm rejecting what you're assuring is infallible hardware on the basis of my own anecdotal experience.As to the rest of it,Quote.. you called out that your vendor, actually uses higher grade kit. Congrats, that's automatically not Consumer crap. They're not equal, yet you have spend an inordinate amount of time going on about how they are, and how wonderfully reliable it is, while I have a dead scope and demonstrated the wonderful reliability with a shot of a bench scope from my dayjob. At least the TDS7k scope is new enough it's going in for repair.As to the Iwatsu...https://www.iti.iwatsu.co.jp/en/products/ds/ds5600/ds5600_spec_e.htmlvs.http://teledynelecroy.com/oscilloscope/oscilloscopeseries.aspx?mseries=469The Hameg is out because they don't appear to offer anything that is just 4 channels of analog, they wedge in too much extraneous shit including an unneeded LA.The take away here is almost like anything that isn't what you use is inferior and shouldn't even exist (apparently we're all you, and have the same needs?). But Gunb did raise a good point that actually agrees with you. Gone are the days of "low end" being the 60MHz CRO scopes for 3k-or-less, and in its place is the value "entry line" of products. With that as the low-line basis, I do concede the DS4k is then an upper end of the low-end, but not mid end. And by today's standards, the TDS5k is in the same bucket just by its age and lack of capabilities.

author: Gunb
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 09, 2015, 12:15:03 pm
content: Quote from: RF-Engineer on April 09, 2015, 11:01:24 amWhat do you think about the FFT?I think, that could be better, it's a bit poor. Fixed no. of bins.

author: Gunb
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 09, 2015, 12:22:32 pm
content: Quote from: XFDDesign on April 09, 2015, 12:11:25 pmHm, what do you mean concerning the "4 ch of analog"? Don't understand.The LA is excellent! You should see how comfortable the trigger patterns are. For someone working with micros or FPGA it's a good thing.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 09, 2015, 12:42:23 pm
content: Quote from: XFDDesign on April 09, 2015, 12:11:25 pmYeah, well that's Tek, and it's pretty poor they don't even sell you a license code any more (I know Keysight does for some out of support devices, and LeCroy even sells you keys for a 1998 WaveRunner if you want to, but more often or not just give them out for free).QuoteLess hyperbole, and you might even get the point, which is not that you need this functionality, but that this is the differentiator that makes the Tek a midrange scope and the DS4k is low-end.I mean, really, it's not rocket science. Or would you argue that a <insert any super sports car in here, i.e. a Veyron) only becomes a compact car just because US roads have ridiculous speed limits or because you're afraid to go faster than 60?QuoteI don't know what you mean by "my vendor" (I regularly buy kits from various vendors, aside from Tek) but that was just an example, and you'll find proper components in many instruments from other vendors.QuoteWell, you did spend an inordinate amount of time ranting about that PC tech can't possibly lasting longer than 3 to 5 years, while on the other side apparently incapable to fix a very likely very simple problem with the TDS7k on the image you posted. This is a very good indicator that you obviously know a lot less about PC technology than you believe you do, so you might want to cut down on the hyperbole and rambling and might want to be a bit more open to advice. Well, of course you can also just continue to be dismissive, I don't care, and at the end of the day it's only your loss not mine.Instead of rambling you could have posted details about what's wrong with the other scopes instead, and perhaps we might have even been able to help you to get them up and running again, in which case you wouldn't need to spend any money for a new scope.QuoteYes, they include LA functionality. But at the end of the day that should not matter if the scope is still at the same price as say the WaveJet (I haven't checked prices so I don't know if that's the case), and if it is I'd recommend the Hameg.QuoteYeah, right, that's why I recommended scopes I wouldn't buy for myself because my needs are very much different then yours. Hyperbole again?Anyways, that's probably all that's to say about that. I told you all I can tell you, it's up to you if you want to take my advice on board or not.In any case, good luck!

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 09, 2015, 12:54:07 pm
content: If you have some hands on experience with PC based Tektronix equipment you'd know getting the TDS7K scope up&running involves more than just popping in a Windows disk and re-install. You need the right Windows version and setting up the special video drivers can also be challenging. These scopes use a special videocard where the hardware writes the traces into the picture. If the owner is lucky the TDS7K scope has a CD rom drive otherwise it is back to copying the installer using 3.5" disks onto the hard drive first and install from there. Getting Windows to install from the hard drive it is to be installed on is another hurdle.

author: Gunb
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 09, 2015, 12:55:18 pm
content: Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on April 09, 2015, 12:42:23 pmSurely not.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 09, 2015, 12:59:45 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on April 09, 2015, 12:54:07 pmI assume the OP's scope runs WindowsXP, and I would even have a source for the drivers and the software (I know someone at a partner company who went through a similar procedure more recently, and he has all the software necessary, I could ask him to give it to me if required).I'm not sure this person's scope had a CD drive,ifI remember right he mentioned using an external USB DVD drive (I might be wrong, though).Whenever I get a Windows based test instrument (or one that has a hard drive) then creating an image is the first thing I do, as it's an easy way to save oneself the hassle later.

author: Gunb
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 09, 2015, 01:15:25 pm
content: Well,finally we can say next time before buying a scopeeithera) you should know someone at some company who owns some backups for exactly the PC based scope you want to buy in case it needsservice after becoming obsolete and hope that you get it fixedorb) simply buy a scope that can be sent to the fucking manufacturer for service.I would prefer option b), and focus on dev work instead of spending time with scope repairs.

author: XFDDesign
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 09, 2015, 01:25:52 pm
content: Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on April 09, 2015, 12:42:23 pmQuote from: XFDDesignMmmmhmmm......QuoteQuote from: XFDDesignThe tools of my day job are not my responsibility to fix. But thanks for yet another assumption.QuoteBecause when the above product, which I do not own, has corporate policies around it and its repair, this translates to my inability to know anything about PCs at all. Which doesn't follow at all.QuoteI've written off PC based scopes. The thread is about the problems around the DS4000. Someone else has sought to inject the glory of the PC Master Race into this, without any knowledge on the DOA pile of Tek crap.QuoteQuoteIt isn't. I have no need to pay for that which I will not use.QuoteThe "Hyperbole again?" isn't actually a defense or reputation. Going on and on about how a Toyota Camry isn't the Ariel Atom is also not hyperbole, but rather a pointless distraction. Using the standard of an industrial Diesel engine for reliability when discussing the disposability of Kia gas engines, is also little beyond pointless distractions and is also dishonest.What's funny is you really haven't actually made an objective case of "for the price, x is what I would buy." Instead, it's been "A B or C arefarsuperior to R." And then once I look at B, "well, that's a old dated and unimpressive platform" and so on. Nothing more than curmudgeonly pedantry.Cheers.Edits:QuoteEarlier on when it was just a PC crash, I would use the Tek recovery CDs which they kindly provided out of the box. It was an annoyance, but not actually an Earth shattering event. I keep my source materials well organized and close at hand. And no, my scope's line only came with Windows 2000. And no, it isn't on my network.I'm sure what you actually mean, is that my day-job's scope. In which case, they can't be farked to care that they didn't keep track of their install CDs. The point of that picture was to show these idiotic things breaking. In a huge corp, a few grand for an idiotic fix is just part of the day.Quote from: GunbI'm operating on a pessimist's mindset. Given that I've had bad experiences with Agilent/Keysight in the past, and then had Tek's gear shit the bed, it doesn't matter the brand. It will all crap the bed. Being sent back to the manufacturer is a nice hope, but given Tek's response I hold out no hope. I assume that whatever I'm buying will last me maybe 5 years and then it's time to buy something else.QuoteThe Decoder is still nothing I'm concerned with. What do you mean with regards to the PC app for screen shots? On my DSA-815 a push of a button does a screen cap save to the USB stick (perilously slowly though). Where does the PC come into it? Fan noise isn't a big deal, given the obnoxiously loud PC fans I have on my work PC. Lastly, what do you mean by search functionality?Thanks

author: Gunb
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 09, 2015, 02:44:23 pm
content: QuoteI've connected 4 scopes to the PC via USB, also the DSA815-TG and 3 generators. In this case they can be remote controlled by PC applications. Hameg is providing HMEplorer, a complete interface for basic device control, where you can take also screenshots without the need of USB stick.Rigol also provides only an interface application, that can be accessed with third party apps but does not give comfortable access to the devices functions.QuoteWhen capturing a signal it makes especially sense with storage scopes to investigate the signal afterwards and search for special events. The HMOs provide search functionality where one can for example search for special rise time or patterns or runt.The Rigol's memory would be perfect for that since it has space for 140MPts. But they did not implement any search functionality as others do. What you can do is defining a mask of a recorded signal and compare it to subsequent frames of that signal. It shows the deviation but that's not a real search function. So the only thing that can be done is to transfer the signal to PC and use some kind of analysis software. Not very comfortable when this is not the intention.If you don't need these features, than it will not be interesting for you.RgdsGunb

author: H.O
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 14, 2015, 08:51:37 pm
content: QuoteI don't know if it's common knowlede, I haven't seen it mentioned but I just discovered that a simple way to do screenshots is to use the Ultra Sigma software. Right click any instrument (that supports screenshots) and select Operation->Print Screen. By default it ends up in the Ultra Sigma installation folder but you can change that by going into Settings, selecting the Screen Print tab and double click the File Path column.