A few questions for what to choose when starting out learning to solder/desolder - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / beginners

author: Cyber Akuma
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 09, 2021, 07:47:16 pm
content: So I want to learn to solder and desolder, generally for some projects I want to do regarding mostly old equipment, mostly bodge-wires, DIP-packages, and surface-mount components. I have tried to Google what advice I can, but some stuff I still don't really understand how to start out on.I figured the best way to do this would be to purchase cheap and likely broken random electronics from a thrift store and just practice removing components/soldering random points together. Would this be a good way to practice? I know there are soldering kits, but I am not sure how useful those would be over this approach, and as well as affordable.I also realized quickly that I am still not sure what what be good equipment to choose starting out. I Googled it and ran into many guides with $100-$500+ soldering stations and the like, but that's a lot for just starting out and learning to solder. What would I even look for in a budget soldering iron for starting out? I am not sure what would be a good one to avoid damaging old electronics. I know there are many soldering irons for around $15, are those even any good or is something that cheap basically junk? I don't mind paying more, but I was hoping avoiding coming anywhere close to $100 if possible, at least for starting out for now.The solder itself seems to be easy to choose, I just need to look for ones with rosin core and use lead, right? Any specific brands I should look for or avoid? And if it's rosin core, that means I don't need to worry about flux right? Or so I still need to look into that?And finally, about desoldering. Looking around, everyone seems to recommend this $17-20 device called a "SS-02 Solder Sucker" by a company called Engineer. Thing is, I am worried about using these desoldering pumps that basically do a rapid "shot" of air intake to pull the solder out. Mostly, I am worried if they would be safe to use on old electronics or if they can tear/lift traces, since I heard those can be sensitive once something gets old. The vacuum-like guns seem to be way out of my pricerange starting out at $150 or so. Are those devices that are basically a soldering wand with a pump attached like this:https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00068IJSG/any good? Or should I stick to that SS-02 pump?Oh, and I have been watching several YouTube videos on learning to solder/desolder and have gotten some good advice, but some of them conflict with each other. Are there any specific ones someone can recommend?

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 09, 2021, 07:59:19 pm
content: KSGER T12 is a decent and cheap soldering station. There are many modifications and many sellers, as usual with Chinese products, but it is possible to get a good one if you do a bit of research.You still need flux even if you have rosin core solder. All solder should work about the same.This is indeed one of the best mechanical solder suckers. And no, it is not strong enough to lift the trace, unless it is already fully detached.This contraption in the amazon link looks like the worst idea ever. Don't buy that.

author: Cyber Akuma
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 09, 2021, 08:14:11 pm
content: Thanks, that helps me sort out the solder, desolderer, and that I need flux. Going to have to look into what fluxes are good then, didn't look into that.That soldering station seems to be around $75, which was a bit more than I was hoping to pay for just starting out, and that's without a power plug. I was kind of hoping to avoid getting a full station since they take up room. I admit, I am not sure I would even make proper use of one since I am not sure what temperatures I should even use.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 09, 2021, 08:59:22 pm
content: Thishttps://www.amazon.com/MG-Chemicals-milliliters-Pneumatic-Dispensing/dp/B00425FUW2/is a good flux. Just don't take "no clean" seriously, and clean it up. It is no clean only if fully activated, which is not possible with manual soldering, and it is slightly conductive when wet.That soldering station is the smallest one as far as size concerned. The smaller size is only those cheap unregulated soldering irons that plug into a wall directly. That's going to be a bad experience all around.KSGER T12 is $50 on Aliexpress with free shipping to the US.

author: HobGoblyn
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 09, 2021, 11:12:01 pm
content: I asked a similar question a couple of years ago, I was advised against buying unknown brands of solder from eBay etc.A couple of replies I got,————————-mariush said:“ Please don't buy solder from no-name brands from eBay. Should be safe if they're Multicore/Kester or other well known brands, even if they're old stock like 5-10 years old... ”tooki said:“ The eBay stuff is highly likely to be unusable junk.Multicore/Loctite/Stannol (it's all the same company, Henkel) is a great brand, and you'll be very happy with the 60/40. The difference between 63/37 and 60/40 is minuscule, and while I do prefer the former if given the choice, I'd choose a name-brand 60/40 over eBay chinesium 63/37 any day.”———————Thread link is below but is about other things toohttps://www.eevblog.com/forum/beginners/hello-advice-on-my-lab-and-what-solder-to-buy-please/

author: Jwillis
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2021, 12:15:55 am
content: I had a moment of weakness for cheap Chinese solder called KAINA. It does work but it's kind of dull.Going back to AIMRMA. Easy to get locally and worth the extra cost.Chipquik SMD291 is really good . I don't care for Chipquik RA891 because I find the fumes are really harsh when they're not pulled with the fan. Good old MG rosin solder for most applications works fine and cleans up easy with IPA.That desoldering tool from Amazon looks like an abomination . You'd be better of with aSolomon Solder SuckerYou'll probably want some Solder-wick.Chemtronicsis really good.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2021, 12:27:29 am
content: I always use MG Chemicals 4894-227G 60/40 solder (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B005T8N8B6). Works fine for me. And I don't use it enough to really worry about the cost.

author: wizard69
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2021, 02:32:48 am
content: Buying fancy soldering equipment is great but I might suggest a different approach, get yourself a dirt cheap iron and maybe a couple of other tools that are not meant for electronics per say. I started out with complete crap, literally the cheapest iron Radio Shack had (all I could afford) and my fathers big Weller (probably equal to todays D650) soldering gun. I'm not suggesting using these for fine work, or professional usage, but I do believe that they offer a way to learn a few skills and to work with irons when you really don't know the operating temperatures. Back in the day I did a few HeathKits with such tools so it is possible to do a credible job. Now all of that being said a decent temperature controlled iron is nirvana. Long term you will most certainly want one or maybe even two. However knowing how to use a less elegant iron, say a Butane powered one, up a lift or on some tower is a good skill to have. By the way battery powered, temperature controlled, irons are now a thing and some of them are worth owning, but I hope you see my point.As for solder I have to agree with many here, buy a brand that people have had good success with. I use Kester however they are not the only game in town. The mistake many make when buying solder is that they buy a heavy wire gage solder that really isn't desirable for "most" electronics work.Solder suckers are great and will not damage a PCB if used properly. It is advisable though to also have some solder wick as a supplement. As others have all ready suggested you need too have flux for most soldering and it can help with desoldering. Well maybe not "most" soldering but flux is important and you should learn to identify when it is needed.A word on salvage, an old trick I learned years ago when salvaging form boards you never intend ot use again is to turn the board upside down and heat from the back side. I've used large heat guns or propane torches to do this and I actually believe that if the heat is applied evenly you actually reduce the chances of damage to a SMT chip. Obviously do this outside and have your PPE on. The nice thing is SMT devices will literally fall off with the board upside down the minute the solder is flowing with possibly a little giggle required.The days of HeathKit are gone but from the educational standpoint there is a lot to learn in putting kits together. It has been a long long time since I've looked at a kit so I can't offer manufacture suggestions, however I can point you in two directions, tools you might use and audio equipment. Tools are obvious and easy to justify, Start out with something simple such as a power supply for a breadboard. Audio equipment is nice because you can start without a huge investment in test equipment. In any event the assembly of a kit gives you incentive to do well and leaves you with something functional afterwards. Basically I'm assuming you are starting from Zero here.In any event the #1 goals should be to avoid breaking the bank. Buy a decent temperature controlled iron but avoid the "industrial solutions". Think of the purchase as an investment though, that is how many penny's over 20 years will it cost you per day.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2021, 02:39:48 am
content: Also, you may have some success with USB-C soldering irons. I recently learned about this onehttps://pine64.com/product/pinecil-smart-mini-portable-soldering-iron/I ordered one to see how good it is, but I have not received it yet. They ship from China and shipping is slow at the moment. At $25 it is pretty cheap, but it also requires USB-C cable (silicone version also available from that site) and a USB-PD power supply. But those two things you may already have.I too started with unregulated 100W wall-plugged soldering iron, but I can't say I'd recommend it in modern days. I would definitely go for something better.

author: Electro Fan
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2021, 03:00:09 am
content: There are lots of possibilities for soldering irons from about $25 up to your $150 budget and more. If you think this is something you will be using for a couple years or more I'd suggest looking at a Hakko FX888D. It will cost about $100 and it might be all you need for a long time. If it turns out you need more you will know better what and why, and at most you will have spent about $75 more than the least possible to get the job done, but likely you will not be limited by the tool and you can have confidence in your soldering while enjoying the process.For solder, I would suggest Kester. They make many versions of leaded and non-leaded and again you will be able to have confidence that the product is not inhibiting your results or your learning curve.For solder suckers it's probably good to start with a manual device to see what it's all about and if you need something better you will have started with a fairly inexpensive frame of reference that will help you determine and justify the requirements for something better like a de-soldering gun.One other thing to add to the mix is flux, maybe a flux pen from MG Chemicals (such as 835-P) or something equivalent. The Kester (or any good) solder will have rosin flux inside the solder but for working on older PCBs, older parts and for rework, removal, etc the extra flux will help you make and re-make good joints.If you search EEVblog, especially the Other Equipment & Products forum you can find a ton of good posts about many aspects of soldering including some excellent links to videos on soldering. Almost everything you might need to know has already been posted around here somewhere.And the rest you can ask about - you have come to the right place. Enjoy your soldering.

author: Renate
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2021, 01:19:50 pm
content: Hmm, that KSGER T12 looks pretty cute. I like that it says 72W. That it uses (presumably) a SMPS instead of a big ol' transformer is a plus. I'm not sure how those long tips compare to the short ones I'm used to on a Weller.I use a Solomon-type solder sucker. I've had ones that the thin thread on the body parts stripped. Still it does what it does. If I can, for through-hole I put the board in a vise, the sucker on the bottom the iron on the top. Gravity and the fact that you don't have to quickly slip the sucker in gets the job done cleanly.+1 FluxSolder wick: There is a major difference between the expensive stuff and the cheap stuff. The good stuff vacuum cleans all the solder. Trim the solder wick so that there is a tiny bit of tinned/used wick on the end.

author: Electro Fan
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2021, 02:29:36 pm
content: It does look cute but take a look at the reviews on Amazon. KSGER 12 looks a bit hit or miss for various reasons. Hakko FX888D reviews are many more and much more consistently highly rated.+1 for soldier wick.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2021, 05:51:46 pm
content: I would not trust Amazon reviews for professional tools. There are a lot of discussion on KSGER T12 on this forum, I'd read that instead. There are issues with them, for sure. But overall it is an absolutely usable tool.

author: Cyber Akuma
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2021, 06:39:33 pm
content: Wow, the replies so far have been almost a little overwhelming. Thank You for all this help, let me try to reply to some questions I still have:Quote from: ataradov on November 09, 2021, 08:59:22 pmOh wow, didn't know flux cost that much. Does flux normally cost more than solder? Most of the solder I saw cost around $10 or so. Also, any specific brands of flux I should avoid? I will use that one for my actual projects, but for just randomly soldering components around just to practice/learn, it feels like it would be a waste to use good/expensive flux like that on stuff I intend to just toss away after I am done practicing on it.QuoteYeah, I see that now, it is much smaller than I expected once I saw a picture of someone holding it. I thought it was closer to the size of around a shoebox or so from the pictures.QuoteHmm, is Banggood also a good place to purchase it from? Or no? I saw a Youtube review of it, and they had links to different revisions of the iron for also around that price there. I have never really purchased from Aliexpress or Banggood before, didn't trust them. I don't have to give them my credit card, do I? Can I just use paypal or something?Quote from: ataradov on November 10, 2021, 12:27:29 amQuote from: HobGoblyn on November 09, 2021, 11:12:01 pmOh, looks like good solder is more expensive than I thought too. Again, would it be ok to just use cheaper stuff for practice kits and random practice soldering? I don't know if having bad solder would effect learning to solder properly. The one I saw come up the most often on Amazon was something called Maiyum:https://www.amazon.com/dp/B075WB98FJ/Any experience with that one?Quote from: ataradov on November 10, 2021, 02:39:48 amUsing USB sounds.... weird to be honest. I know that USB-C can deliver a lot more power than A, but still feels rather unorthadox and like it would be much lower power for something designed to heat up that much and regulate. That link you posted mentions it uses "Ralim’s IronOS", a 108Mhz 32 bit RISC CPU, and has a breakout cable for GPIO pins. That just.... confuses me for a soldering iron. Why would a soldering iron need to be a computer like that? I would rather stick to something that just runs off AC power.(Also, so that's what happened to Pine64, I remember backing the original Pi-like board on Kickstarter)Quote from: HobGoblyn on November 09, 2021, 11:12:01 pmMulticore... that sounds very familiar. I think I have seen that heavily recommended in the past. I forgot that it was a brand, I was trying to search for that "type" of solder, not remembering that it was a brand, not a type.But, wow, that stuff is even more expensive than MG, around $30 for a spool. Didn't know good solder was going to be that much more expensive than the cheaper ones.Quote from: Jwillis on November 10, 2021, 12:15:55 amChipquik, that's a name I am certain I have heard before in the past too in regards to better quality soldering supplies. Will have to look into that one too.QuoteLooks pretty similar to a cheap desolder pump I already have that came as part of a computer repair toolkit I got years ago, never really used the cheap soldering components of it, just the screwdrivers and other tools. The SS-02 feels like it's a bit better designed than that one.QuoteDidn't even consider that. Am I doing to need wick on top of also having a de-solder pump? I thought those were just two different ways of removing solder when desoldering?Quote from: wizard69 on November 10, 2021, 02:32:48 amI mean, I do already have a few of those cheap "wands" that just directly plug into AC and have no options whatsoever, as well as a very very very old solder gun that I think gets way too hot for most applications, but those have rarely worked out well for soldering to boards, most I have been able to do is solder wires with it or some REALLY big/old points on ancient devices. Which is why I was trying to look for something better that is still entry-level.QuoteQuote from: Electro Fan on November 10, 2021, 03:00:09 amHmm... Kester seems to be about par, in price as well, with Multicore. I wonder if any local places have them cheaper, sometimes these things cost far more online.QuoteA wick is something I was not even considering, now I am not sure when I am even supposed to use a pump over a wick. I thought you could just use either.Quote from: Renate on November 10, 2021, 01:19:50 pmHmm, any specific ones you can recommend?

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2021, 07:06:28 pm
content: Quote from: Cyber Akuma on November 10, 2021, 06:39:33 pmYou use VERY little. Last syringe I bought was in 2018 and I solder quite a bit. But I also don't know if it is available in any smaller packaging.Good quality flux costs about this much.You can try plain rosin paste (https://www.amazon.com/Solder-Soldering-Rosin-Lead-Free-Electronics/dp/B08MVXW4RY), but the cleanup is much harder.Quote from: Cyber Akuma on November 10, 2021, 06:39:33 pmAvoid stuff from hardware store intended for soldering pipes. Most fluxes that are intended for electronics would work fine.Quote from: Cyber Akuma on November 10, 2021, 06:39:33 pmJust use good flux on everything. It simplifies your life quite a bit. And again, don't put it on with a spoon and cover everything in it. You need very little and this syringe will last you a long time.Quote from: Cyber Akuma on November 10, 2021, 06:39:33 pmAll the same stuff, does not matter.Quote from: Cyber Akuma on November 10, 2021, 06:39:33 pmThey are not going to steal your card. It is really not worth it for them. They are biggest retailers in the world. I have no idea if you can use PayPal with them.Quote from: Cyber Akuma on November 10, 2021, 06:39:33 pmIt would very much, especially if you don't have someone experienced around to tell you that something is off. It would be very hard to convey the "feeling" of it via a forum post, so we won't be able to help you.Quote from: Cyber Akuma on November 10, 2021, 06:39:33 pmIt might work, it might not. And again, the last spool of it I bought was in 2017 and it is just running out. You don't use it that much to worry about saving it.Quote from: Cyber Akuma on November 10, 2021, 06:39:33 pmTS100 soldering iron was around for years and many people have it in their toolbox. It works fine.Quote from: Cyber Akuma on November 10, 2021, 06:39:33 pmThat is because this company focuses on other stuff. You don't have to program it, it comes with the working firmware. But you can if you want to, and that's great.Quote from: Cyber Akuma on November 10, 2021, 06:39:33 pmThey are still in business and sell ARM-based laptops.Quote from: Cyber Akuma on November 10, 2021, 06:39:33 pmHaving wick is always helpful. There are different situations when one works better than the other.Quote from: Cyber Akuma on November 10, 2021, 06:39:33 pmI use this stuffhttps://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00424S2C8/. It works fine. But you need to pick the size that is more appropriate for your application. I picked the smallest I could find. And again, it lasts for a long time. The spool I use now was bought in 2016. If you are really using it a lot, then it makes sense to pay for good stuff.

author: Renate
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2021, 07:10:28 pm
content: Quote from: Cyber Akuma on November 10, 2021, 06:39:33 pmYou normally can't see the solder wick in the package, but the requirements are finely braided and a bright copper color. The photo shows how I like to use it, with a "taste" of solder on the tip to whet its appetite. Left to right: Radio Shack (ugh), SK (eh), MG (thumbs up). Ha, I see ataradov has the same brand in no-clean. I'm a big fan of isopropyl alcohol and a toothbrush.

author: NorthernWing
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2021, 08:06:56 pm
content: Just something you might be interested in -https://www.techni-tool.com/The company I work for gets our rework equipment and supplies almost exclusively from Techni-Tool... even if you aren't planning on buying from them (the prices are usually competitive but their shipping tends to be expensive on large items), it's a great place to go and shop around for things if you aren't looking for some exact part.Edit for other thoughts:If you do stock up on solder wick, I'd get something fluxed (likethis/this) as opposed to unfluxed/dry wick. It will make life a lot easier.I personally have a pair ofthese Yihua 939D+soldering stations... they've been fantastic considering the price and I would absolutely recommend one for a new setup.Already been said but using 'no-clean' flux does not imply that it doesn't need cleaned when used in hand soldering. It theoretically becomes nonconductive when the entire CCA is heated during production assembly, but assembling a board with an iron willnotactivate all of the flux you've put down, and it can still become conductive when exposed to moisture or at elevated temperatures.Get yourself several good pairs of sharp tweezers from Techni-Tool or similar, you'll thank yourself later. We use Excelta xx-SA-SE tweezers here at work, just pull up the 'Economy Tweezers' section and they're about $3-5/ea... MM-SA-SE are standard straight, 3C-SA-SE are the micro version of that, 7-S-SE are curved, etc. I'm sure there are cheaper versions of these on Amazon that are just as good once you decide what style you prefer.I've always usedJasco Denatured Alcoholfrom Lowes for cleaning boards... according tothe MSDSit's about half methanol and basically 100% volatile, it's not leaving any residue behind.I like to use your basicmildly activated rosin flux paste- it's cheap and you get a lot of it in one can. Stays active for a lot longer than the no-clean fluxes I've worked with before it burns off. Yeah cleanup can be a bit more of a pain, but the denatured ethanol/methanol mix above seems to absolutely destroy this stuff. I would recommend you do not use water-soluble flux/flux-cored solder like Kester 2331 - it sounds great and the flux absolutely eats through everything, but that's because it's an acid flux - while you could probably soak it for long enough to get everything neutralized, it stays active at room temperature and anything you miss under an SMT component or QFP/etc will absolutely dosomething like thisto your board.

author: Electro Fan
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2021, 08:14:32 pm
content: Quote from: ataradov on November 10, 2021, 05:51:46 pmNo one needs to trust Amazon reviews but someone might learn something from reading the reviews unless they already know everything.If there are for sure issues with the KSGER T12 maybe you could tell us more about those?Why get a "usable tool" when you could get a better tool?

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2021, 09:05:34 pm
content: Quote from: Electro Fan on November 10, 2021, 08:14:32 pmThey are mostly related to specific versions of the firmware or specific sellers. And quality control misses things occasionally, as usual with cheap things like this. There is a whole thread on it on this forum. If you are price sensitive, then it pays to spend a bit of time researching that.Quote from: Electro Fan on November 10, 2021, 08:14:32 pmWhat is a better tool for $50? As far as I'm aware KSGER T12 is the best tool for the price. Sure, going a bit higher may get you a better tool, but that is not the question here.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2021, 09:06:37 pm
content: Quote from: Cyber Akuma on November 09, 2021, 07:47:16 pmThat is not a bad way to get some experience, and older equipment will have through hole parts which can be reused in future projects.QuoteBe sure to get a temperature controlled soldering iron. It does not need to be variable temperature, but it does need to be temperature controlled.QuoteSpring loaded vacuum solder suckers can work pretty well, but for removing components I rarely use one. The extra time taken applying heat tends to damage things.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2021, 09:32:15 pm
content: Once clarification for the reason people (including myself) like SS-02. The body itself is nothing special, it is just a solid-feeling sucker. The key thing about it is that on the tip it uses flexible silicone tube that takes the heat well, so it is possible to have the sucker positioned over the pin while soldering iron in heating it. This improves usability over a regular sucker with a solid tip. But yes, it is the last tool I would buy if I were on a budget, it is the least useful.Second picture on Amazon page (https://www.amazon.com/Engineer-SS-02-Solder-Sucker/dp/B002MJMXD4) shows this. This is not just marketing, it works and makes a difference.That being said, I'm sure you can just buy spare silicone tube and place it on the regular sucker.

author: Electro Fan
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2021, 10:56:20 pm
content: +1 for Engineer SS-02

author: Bicurico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2021, 11:22:16 pm
content: I am by no means an expert or a professional.My needs to desolder have been with the repair of old circuits like the Commodore 64 or older test equipment.My #1 advice to you, before you start spending big money is to definitly get some old board and desolder everything on it. The problem with that is that newer circuit boards are mostly SMD and if you are into desoldering boards with DIP technology, you definitly should look at such boards. Try to find an older PC board or graphics card. Those normally still have DIP stuff on them.Also, learn how to desolder electrolytic capacitors, resistors and transistors. Those are often broken and need to be replaced.Learn different techniques:- SMD is normally pretty easy to desolder with a hot air station- capacitors and broken IC's are best removed by first cutting the legs and then desoldering one by one- sometimes you want to put a socket on an otherwise good IC, so you need to train desoldering it without breaking the IC or the traces (too much heat and they pop off)If you learn all this on garbage boards, you have nothing to loose.If you use cheap equipment, you will have some frustration, but once you get the hang of it, you will appreciate better equipment.Note that desoldering has to be mastered, even if you use premium equipment to do so.I do like to use vacuum pumps. I especially like those that are like a soldering iron: they quickly melt the solder and you press the button and the built-in pump sucks it out. The cheap ones I use get worn pretty quickly, but then they cost about 10 Euro, so that is ok.I have a 100 Euro Chinese hot air soldering station (Aoyue), which works like a charm to remove SMD components. The biggest challenge is to not blow away tiny resistors and capacitors, so one has to get a feeling for what is the best air flow. On the other hand, removing big BGA chips require some heating and again one has to practice to know when the chip is ready to be lifted.Definitly go dumpster diving for old boards to train on, this is the best advise I can give you.Regards,Vitor

author: rstofer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 14, 2021, 01:31:13 am
content: Dave did a video comparing two entry level soldering stations:https://odysee.com/eevblog-1063-weller-we1010-vs-hakko:0d4a08a00708d7d16adf524b101e729afc6f9401?src=embed