Experience is worth very little - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: SL4P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 04, 2015, 12:53:51 am
content: I often look at reply posts in EEVblog, and get the feeling that any suggestion using ideas over 20 years old - is no longer relevant.Of course, there arespecificquestions for prior experience or skills, but as we all know - everything worth being involved in was invented within the last 20 years, and there was no precedent before that... so older experience or ideas are largely unnecessary and inconsequential.We can all make the same mistakes over again - no problem.Edit: typo

author: Seekonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 04, 2015, 03:13:33 pm
content: Not at all. The things engineers overlook haven't changed.The people that will use your product are not any smarter than they used to be.Dissipating heat hasn't changed or the fact that a couple years of dust turn your calculations to crap.Data sheets are still rather creative with the facts.Molex connectors still turn brown with the rated current.They still try to get a precision output from crap input.The specs will change just before you ship.Your boss will get all the credit and you will get all the blame.The next guy to copy your project will do a better job. You could too with a second chance.The packages have changed but the issues haven't.

author: suicidaleggroll
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 04, 2015, 04:16:22 pm
content: In my experience, there are simply better options available now than there used to be. While the "old" approaches still work, the "new" approaches are better, and will be shown preferential treatment. Not better because they're newer, better because they're any or all of the following: cheaper, lower power, more intuitive, more configurable, more consistent, etc.This isn't always true, but from what I've seen, it often is.

author: German_EE
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 04, 2015, 09:03:23 pm
content: I know how you feel because I have been in the industry for forty years or so. When I did my degree a computer was either something filling a room or a machine like a PDP/11 sitting in a 19 inch rack, now I have a PICAXE CPU in a single chip. TVs? they were black and white affairs containing vacuum tube based assemblies which had questionable reliability. So, anybody who was trained in computer engineering or TV repair at the time would be useless now.UNLESS THEY KEPT UP TO DATEThere are probably some guys out there who still repair the black and white sets but most of them retrained for color then kept on learning as ICs came along then flat screens. My own industry was elevator servicing and when I started it was purely electro-mechanical with rotating control drums and racks of relays and contactors, by the time I retired an entire elevator was controlled by a 30cm x 30cm PCB and a box full of power semiconductors. Time moves on, accept it.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 04, 2015, 09:51:59 pm
content: In some respects, I'm horrified and pleased about how little has changed in the past 35 years.In 1980 I was programming 8 bit processors in C. The only difference is that now the equipment doesn't cost a years salary and fits on the corner of the table. And there are decent IDEs.Besides, and much more importantly, the fundamentals haven't changed. Sure, which buttons you have to press and in which order have changed, but who cares about that!

author: VK3DRB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 04, 2015, 09:55:42 pm
content: Quote from: cleaningOut on December 04, 2015, 12:57:26 amABSOLUTE RUBBISH!Which part of "most engineers areNOTarrogant as hell don't you, yesYOU, understand?"OK, we EE's do have a sense of humour though, quite often twisted. Actually, I agree with you to some extent. I have come across the occasional arrogant prick of an engineer and technician. One technician was ex-military, and he was always right even if he was wrong. If he said a car was white, when in fact it was green, you had to agree with him or he would chuck a tantrum. A pain in the arse to work with. An engineer who was a know-it-all got very, very arrogant if you did not know something that he did, technically. Being a hardware and embedded engineer, I copped a public tongue lashing when I did not know what a .NET assembly was. No surprise his marriage had busted up.But these two were a small minority out of a cast of probably a thousand engineers I have worked with over the years. Most engineers and technicians are not arrogant. A few do have problems with social skills in other areas though. One colleague, who was quite brilliant with electronics and firmware once asked me when he was 48 years old, "How do you get a girlfriend?" His social skills were very low, and he had no idea how to meet one. I sort of felt sorry for him. His personality was a detractor to a lot of people around him, but I got on well with him.

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 04, 2015, 10:23:47 pm
content: I love vacuum tube circuits; by nature and by necessity, they teach the fundamentals of circuit design, at least among the types of circuits that can reasonably be designed with them (most readily: AF and RF amplifiers, detectors, mixers, oscillators..). This ranges from the simple (triode as a Thevenin dependent source) to the more nuanced (an RF amplifier must account for terminal capacitances and conductances, with consequences for gain, bandwidth, noise and so on), and on into the nonlinear (dependent gain, reactance) and unspecified (bad datasheets, or lack of critical information such as capacitance when actually in use -- yes, it's different!).Doing it all over again with transistors only reveals more of one's ignorance, perhaps to the extent that it's difficult to even tell which part is the most wrong! RF transistors easily oscillate at invisible frequencies; what seems like a reasonable layout (and an apparently reasonable amplifier design, perhaps even having used s parameters, or a SPICE simulation model, in the design process) can be proven quite horrible very easily.One might be inclined to ignore these earlier lessons, even aggressively pursue "modern" methods (like SDR), with much greater power as a result (both in terms of signal processing capability... and electrical consumption!). But sooner or later, those same lessons cannot be avoided: in search of greater SNR, one must eventually use an LNA, or a downconverter, or something like that; harmonics and mixing products and aliasing cannot be "fixed in software"; anything that meets the real world must sooner or later deal with EMC (interference, ESD..); the list goes on.But alas, you already guessed as much; history repeats itself in all fields, and in all eras.Tim

author: SL4P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 04, 2015, 10:28:49 pm
content: As the OP, I'd like to suggest that the goals in the industry haven't changed that much... certainly the technology and tools have, and a good designer/engineer will always want to grow and adapt with the times to use and apply the latest techniques untilo they retire or withdraw.Where this goes off the track, is 'more recent' entrants to the industry often appear to believe that technology and its derivatives were invented just before the iPhone - so any thinking and evolution done prior is irrelevant, despite being based on first principles - and (plenty of) mistakes made by those prior generations!History is doomed to repeat itself? (Damn - you beat me by a moment!)

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 04, 2015, 10:30:52 pm
content: Quote from: suicidaleggroll on December 04, 2015, 04:16:22 pm15 million transistors, an operating system and 200 kilobytes of code... to blink an led..

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 04, 2015, 10:59:59 pm
content: Quote from: free_electron on December 04, 2015, 10:30:52 pmYesAnd those still in nappies don't have a clue what all that lot is doing, nor why it is (or isn't!) necessary, nor how it might fail. When something goes wrong, they regard it as sufficient if the problem doesn't (immediately) appear again after rebooting.I've seen farfartoo much of that w.r.t. distributed systems and parallel programming, from code written to run on bare-silicon, through to enterprise code written with whatever "framework-du-jour" the salesman peddled.

author: SL4P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 04, 2015, 11:07:20 pm
content: Reminds me of a related gripe...Open-Loop designs.vsClosed-Loop implementations.One fails and you have to figure it out while the s#!t hits the fan... the other fails and helps you locate the problem, while increasing predictability...! Choose one.Very few designs that I've seen in the last decade use a closed-loop philosophy.Make it work now, don't worry, it won't fail.

author: suicidaleggroll
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 04, 2015, 11:20:01 pm
content: Quote from: SL4P on December 04, 2015, 11:07:20 pmThat has nothing to do with "old" vs "new" design methodologies. Blame penny-pinching consumers for that. Nobody wants to buy the better designed, more expensive product anymore. Throw it up against something half the price from China that still worksmost of the time, and they'll grab the Chinese product over and over again. There's little money in good engineering anymore, those places are being run out of business.Want to fix the problem? Stop buying cheap Chinese garbage on sites like eBay and Alibaba and spend an extra few bucks on a product that's actually had some design work put into it, then convince your friends, colleagues, and relatives to do the same. Until people stop rewarding manufacturers for scraping by with barely-working designs to save a buck, it won't stop, it'll just get worse.

author: SL4P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 04, 2015, 11:24:53 pm
content: *A related gripe...*Closed loop software design doesn't add much to the cost - just awareness and effort, which I agree is invisible to the naive customer.I guess my point was the underlying philosophy behind technology delivery has changed while the learned principles have been abandoned ?

author: G0HZU
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 04, 2015, 11:33:30 pm
content: QuoteIn the timeframes mentioned so far in this thread, SDR isn't really that modern. I was designing the RF converter sections for SDR type receivers >25 years agoSome of my colleagues were doing it back in the 1980s. This was for gov/mil use back then. The digital IF/DSP was housed in a huge 19" rack back in those days and it cost an absolute fortune. The aim was to step through and digitise and process as much of the RF spectrum (well into the GHz region) as quickly as possible but with very high performance. Every year the ADCs and the DSP got better and it was a mad race to make the receivers better and better with wider and wider digital IF bandwidths and quicker and quicker spectrum coverage up to many GHz.Back in those days we all joked that RF engineers were slowly being replaced by DSP chips as the ADC got closer and closer to the antenna with fewer conversion stages required. Perhaps the biggest joke was on all of us as none of us could have predicted just how popular SDR receivers would be in the commercial/consumer markets today. Even within the company we were seen as eccentric nerds designing something very obscure/expensive with little market potential. How wrong we all were...

author: Howardlong
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 04, 2015, 11:47:10 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on December 04, 2015, 10:59:59 pmBlimey, were we separated at birth or otherwise related?!

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 05, 2015, 12:18:51 am
content: Quote from: suicidaleggroll on December 04, 2015, 11:20:01 pmVery slowly, very reluctantly I've come to the conclusion that the only "solution" (and I use that word loosely) will come as a result of law suits and increased insurance premiums. A few long jail sentences wouldn't go amiss, either.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 05, 2015, 12:22:49 am
content: Quote from: Howardlong on December 04, 2015, 11:47:10 pmSo itsyouI always wondered who it was

author: DimitriP
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 05, 2015, 12:31:18 am
content: QuoteIs TCP/IP and fishing included in your statement ?

author: MT
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 05, 2015, 12:36:50 am
content: Quote from: free_electron on December 04, 2015, 10:30:52 pmAnd 900Mhz!

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 05, 2015, 12:39:32 am
content: and this attitude of slap it together ship it ,dvd and blu ray players are a prime example.wanna enjoy the new movie you just bought , sorry , gotta download 3 updates into the player and then wait 3 minutes for the 'operating system' to reboot and read the damn disk. my daewoo player i bought in 2001 plays a disc within 15 seconds after power-on ( not standby , it has a mechanical on off switch. ) the flash rom is a 27c020 ..

author: all_repair
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 05, 2015, 01:18:33 am
content: 5y can be 5 x 1y, or 5y can be 1y + 1y + 1y + 1y + 1y. Outside is the same 5y but it can be a miserable more of the same non-experience, or an accumulation of complex and diverse experiences. From my limited observations, those with the accumulated real experiences can regularly impress with penetrating insight into new difficult problems by offering a simple but effective solution or suggestion.Of course, most here are the accumulated type

author: suicidaleggroll
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 05, 2015, 01:46:28 am
content: Quote from: free_electron on December 05, 2015, 12:39:32 amThat's not the manufacturers' fault, you can blame DRM for that.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blu-ray#Digital_rights_managementMost of those firmware updates simply update the DRM crap so they can play new releases.That's one of the main reasons I was a big supporter of HD DVD during the HD wars...unfortunately we lost.

author: suicidaleggroll
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 05, 2015, 01:58:51 am
content: Quote from: tggzzz on December 05, 2015, 12:18:51 amWhen it comes to legitimate manufacturers making shitty products, I think you're right, but who's to stop the knockoffs, and what about products that are shit but don't kill/maim somebody? There are plenty of people who have been electrocuted (yes, died) from using knockoff phone chargers, but all of the labels and numbers on the product are fake, so there's no way to contact or sue the manufacturer, and yet people still buy them in bulk because the "real" ones are "too expensive". Every time somebody purchases a knockoff (and risks electrocuting themselves) it takes money away from manufacturers making legitimate products. Too much of it, and those manufacturers are forced to either make the same shit as everybody else (and risk being sued) or go out of business.I am simply amazed at the number of people on this forum who buy everything from eBay and Aliexpress and are seemingly oblivious to the repercussions. Saleae is too expensive, just buy a knockoff and use the Saleae software...it makes me sick.

author: suicidaleggroll
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 05, 2015, 02:05:54 am
content: Quote from: wilfred on December 04, 2015, 11:48:11 pmI don't know what VW has to do with anything I or anybody else here has said, so I'll just ignore it...Sure, watch your money and watch what you spend it on, that has nothing to do with what I'm saying. When you make a purchase, don't just think about the money coming out of your wallet, think about that money going into the wallet of whoever you're buying it from.This has nothing to do with "expensive designer goods", this is simply a matter of giving your money to people who care about the quality of what they're selling (or at the very minimum, caring whether or not the product they're selling is going to kill somebody) versus those that simply shove shit out the door hoping for a paycheck.

author: suicidaleggroll
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 05, 2015, 04:58:23 am
content: Quote from: wilfred on December 05, 2015, 03:35:57 amWhat advice?Quote from: wilfred on December 05, 2015, 03:35:57 amI never said it was. Apparently you're trying to put words in my mouth. I said that consumers buying the lowest of the low cheap knockoff crap is pushing the entire industry to cut corners to meet these artificially low price points at any cost. I never said that spending more is any guarantee it will be of higher quality.All I'm saying is that the masses of people buying gutter trash products are forcing quality manufacturers to stoop to that level to keep up or go out of business. The only way out of it is to stop supporting those practices. Spending a bit more on quality products will incentivize manufacturers to actually invest some R&D. Show them that price is not the only thing that matters, R&D does actually pay off. Of course this does assume that if the market is willing to support a higher price point, manufacturers will meet it with better quality products. I don't think that's a risky proposition, but I've been wrong before. VW is an indication that this isn't always true, but the plural of anecdote is not data.

author: VK3DRB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 05, 2015, 07:40:39 am
content: Quote from: SL4P on December 04, 2015, 11:24:53 pmI would argue control theory is the most important subject an engineer can learn. It is at the centre of good design. Every engineer should know about P, I and D and how it affects a system.Ever used an op-amp as an amplifier? It is closed loop by design, using negative feedback. Most electronics used closed loop somewhere, even cheapo Chinese soldering irons.Limiting the spending on a nice new oscilloscope uses closed loop control (the wife, using negative feedback).US government spending appears to be an open loop process...http://www.usdebtclock.org/One of my jobs is the hardware and firmware design of a medical laser system that can supply up to 1.5W of a 532nm green lasing beam from an Nd:YAG laser. Close loop control is a must with these, but they are very tough to control and the solution is more complicated than a single PID algorithm. I once had to design a very accurate programmable airflow valve. The airflow is affected by temperature, turbulence, and air pressure. This was next to impossible with open loop. Closed loop was the only solution and it worked like a charm. It is very satisfying getting things like that working.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 05, 2015, 11:38:00 pm
content: I agree with the above statement about control theory.However, let us consider if there be anything new under the sun:Since the start of the 21st century (and third millennium) in January 2001 (not 2000), the state of the electronics art has seen many improvements.However, with the possible exception of important advances in materials science, what trulynewinventions have happened since Jan 2001?I used to think that the only useful new invention of the century was the thumb drive, but apparently that was invented late in the 20th century.Similarly, cell phones have improved greatly, but they were invented in the 20th century. Similarly for GPS.Drones (UAVs) of the modern type (e.g., Predator) were used in Iraq and other American military actions in the 1990s.Even nanotechnology originated in the late 20th century.Higher speed processors and more sensitive image sensors are improvements, but the inventions were made in the last century.Have I missed anything?

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 05, 2015, 11:55:46 pm
content: Fundamentally I agree, almost all changes have been smaller, faster, cheaper.I would go further and say something similar about most things in everyday life since the beginning of WW2 (1939). With the notable exception of computers, virtually everything was available back then - the only change has that they have become available to everybody, not just the rich.If I was starting out now, I would go into biochemistry and the life sciences rather than electronics and computing. And I'd start hacking there ?

author: SL4P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2015, 12:03:14 am
content: ADDED POLL AT THE TOP

author: ConKbot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2015, 12:08:08 am
content: Quote from: wilfred on December 05, 2015, 03:35:57 am3rd point is debatable, depending on if you like your car to outlast your cell phone.

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2015, 12:08:14 am
content: The more things change, the more they stay the same.Experience is worth a lot. New CS students don't even understand how things are organized and how processors work, so they don't know how to use them and waste cycles and resources everywhere.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2015, 12:15:32 am
content: Quote from: wilfred on December 05, 2015, 06:40:04 amBeingpreparedto pay more, will, on average, increase the quality of goods available in the market.The reverse trend has been very clear in the American market for some time now. People tend buy the cheapest thing on the shelf, regardless of features or quality. Consequently the better quality choices have disappeared due to lack of sales.So I am certain it is true. Being prepared to pay more for things which are genuinely better made (not just overpriced) will increase the availability of better made products.

author: DimitriP
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2015, 12:16:33 am
content: Quote from: SL4P on December 06, 2015, 12:03:14 amFrom which point of view?Consumer, employee, customer, company owner, CEO, board member, investor, elected official during election year, or Jiminy Cricket (as in conscience) ?

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2015, 12:19:01 am
content: Quote from: miguelvp on December 06, 2015, 12:08:14 amI don't personally get too het up about wasted cycles through lack of understanding of how things work.I do get het up about not understanding how they subtly don't work as expected, and consequent unreproducible failures. Examples: Cache non-coherence in multicore systems, or ignoring the eight fallacies of distributed computing, or assuming there can be a global definition of time, or ignoring the Byzantine generals problem.

author: SL4P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2015, 12:20:59 am
content: Quote from: DimitriP on December 06, 2015, 12:16:33 amWhich values are more important to 'society' in general ?

author: all_repair
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2015, 01:12:03 pm
content: Quote from: SL4P on December 06, 2015, 12:20:59 amMy choice is not inside: happiness.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2015, 03:41:04 pm
content: Quote from: miguelvp on December 06, 2015, 12:08:14 amExperience is useful as long as you are open minded and adapt to changes. I saw experienced people sticking to old technologies (sometimes less than 10 years old) and become non relevant.Edit: another common problem with experience is that it often kills the can-do attitude, due to past failures. I am not taking uBeam here, but reflexive rejection of new feasible options and ideas. I see it often in design sessions where the it-must-be-done-in-this-single-way-that-i-am-cmofortable-with is coming from experienced that got stuck in their comfort zone.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2015, 05:22:04 pm
content: Quote from: zapta on December 06, 2015, 03:41:04 pmFirstly experience isn't relevant there - too often theinexperienced see everything as a nail because they've been taught about hammers - and have neither seen nor heard of screws. That phenomenon is easily visible on this forum!Secondly, often old timers are right when they say something can't be done. That can be due to non-technical project/user based reasons, or for technical reasons that will alway be valid - but they've only been taught which button to press in this year's fashionable dev environment. Example: youngsters won't have been taught about the insoluable "split brain" problem, and so won't architect necessary detection and amelioration subsystems. Ditto distributed transactions. Ditto a universal timestamp. Ditto what a DB commit really does and doesn't mean. Ditto about cache (in)consistency.Hells teeth, often they don't understand what ACID (and its weaker variations) means, nor metastability, nor asynchronous events.And so their project is canned, but only after 1e9 monetary units have been spent

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2015, 08:37:50 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on December 06, 2015, 05:22:04 pmIt's not always that black and white. From my experience, some experienced engineers have hard time to participate in an open minded collaborative design process. That's, lets brainstorm the options, consider them and let the chips fall where they may. They come to the design process with preconceived notion about 'the' way things should be done and are not open to consider other options, sometimes better.Experience is a double edge sword. Make sure it's not used as an excuse to stay in your comfort zone, or you will become irrelevant.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2015, 09:05:49 pm
content: Quote from: zapta on December 06, 2015, 08:37:50 pmOf course such behaviour exists - butI have witnessed it more often in inexperienced people.A typical characteristic is that they only know what has been specified to them. By"specified" I imply "taught with neither understanding nor thought".

author: SL4P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2015, 09:27:52 pm
content: Quote from: zapta on December 06, 2015, 08:37:50 pmThis always surfaces in the first phase of a design process, unfortunately... many designs run with this - in the absence of better ideas... or 'experience'.In the name of cost management, the first couple of design discussions are often the last - because 'we already know everything'...!!! even the spec/design process is not a closed-loop !!edit: tggzzz I like the way you think.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2015, 10:01:39 pm
content: Quote from: SL4P on December 06, 2015, 09:27:52 pmIMNSHO it is rarely a closed loop.In my contract r&D experience, you are lucky if the client knows what they need. Often they ask for what they want, but during "discussions" (i.e polite interrogation:) ) I've often found they have thought of a solution without understanding their actual problem. Once they understand their real problem, very different solutions become apparent and desirable.In my commercial R&d experience, there aren't any clients and we have to discover which questions have interesting and useful answers!QuoteI wish everybody did, but then most people can say something similar!

author: SL4P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2015, 10:08:30 pm
content: In a perverse way, this links into another concept...When is a design 'over'engineered?Whenever it is no longer cost or time effective...?EDIT: The poll results so far are quite interesting, and a little surprising...Check them out at the top.

author: SL4P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2015, 10:16:22 pm
content: Quote from: VK3DRB on December 04, 2015, 09:55:42 pmI think i know both of them...!One worked for Telstra, and the other for a major manufacturer/supplier here in Melbourne ?

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2015, 10:31:02 pm
content: Ironically, most things that are "overengineered" aren't at all: i.e., "I don't know what to expect, so throw a whole lot extra at it"!This is a valid (engineered) solution when conditions truly are known to be that harsh -- in which case, just looking at something and its application, it can be hard to appreciate just how much robustness is required. For instance, line transients usually go as amplitude inverse with duration, and inverse with probability. So average energy is constant (say, IEC 61000-4-5 surges of 1.5kV or 2.5kV), but the worst case energy (say, direct lightning strikes!) goes up with desired lifetime/reliability.In the negative sense, "overengineered" might be when it becomes deadlocked in design-by-committee. Although that's a problem of definition, as it's not engineers doing the work anymore, either...Tim

author: SL4P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2015, 10:21:24 am
content: This may sound egotistical, but occasionally I feel that I'm being judged for 'over thinking' a design problem... but my feeling is that perhaps no-one else at the table has seen some of the potential problems.Sure it will work without the extra effort, but how well, for how long? and can it be upgraded later? Maybe not. I'm suppose it's not my problem if finance and marketing say it's perfect - like they'd know!

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2015, 10:26:27 am
content: Quote from: SL4P on December 07, 2015, 10:21:24 amThis is a very real and very common problem, which cannot be adequately resolved.My position is that for "known unknowns", if the cost of change is small then do the simplest/cheapest thing and take the hit if the risk materialises. OTOH, if the cost of change is large, then choose very carefully and deliberately.

author: VK3DRB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2015, 11:09:08 am
content: Quote from: SL4P on December 06, 2015, 10:16:22 pmAll in Melbourne.

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2015, 11:30:50 am
content: Quote from: free_electron on December 05, 2015, 12:39:32 amBlu-ray is special case due to DRM. The players need an update for the current keys every two years or so to be able to play the latest discs. That's the reason I won't buy any blu-ray players or discs. I simply don't support that BS!

author: VK3DRB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2015, 11:34:25 am
content: Quote from: tggzzz on December 06, 2015, 10:01:39 pmPie-in-the-sky ideas from Marketing can cost a company a fortune and even bring the company down. Seen it a few times.Altium and their FPGA offering and nanoboards... how much did they cost and how much return did it bring of the investors? Fortunately Altium is now concentrating on its core technology, which is a step in the right direction. (eg: Altium 16's new highlighting of possible trace routing possibilities is a brilliant idea and long overdue. Staying on track is the right thing to do when you have a good product.

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2015, 11:51:32 am
content: Quote from: tggzzz on December 06, 2015, 10:01:39 pmSounds very familiar! My approach is to listen to them about what they want or try to achieve, and then ask them to explain the actual problem to me. BTW, it's network engineering in my case. One can throw a standard solution at the problem but understanding the problem allows me to find the best solution, often less expensive.

author: SL4P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2015, 11:54:53 am
content: Quote from: madires on December 07, 2015, 11:51:32 amOften they can't explain, then the engineers are blamed as being inflexible, or 'not listening'!

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2015, 11:56:07 am
content: Quote from: SL4P on December 06, 2015, 10:08:30 pmI'd have thought it's going to be the sell price and not quality.

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2015, 12:09:37 pm
content: Quote from: SL4P on December 07, 2015, 11:54:53 amActually you'll find out quite quickly what kind of customer they are. Simply adjust your strategy. If they can't tell you what the problem is, you'll have to ask the right questions to find out. And you can't expect them to speak the same language. When you deal with customers you have to learn some soft skillsOr hire someone who can talk to customers and engineers.EDIT: In case it's neccessary also say NO. It's better to lose a potential customer than having a lot of trouble to make something unworkable work and being blamed for the failure.

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2015, 12:40:41 pm
content: Quote from: free_electron on December 04, 2015, 10:30:52 pmYeah! And it's cheap tooThere's no fun anymore in using just two transistors. It needs to have USB or Ethernet. Don't forget the blinky app to control your gadget. Hey Mom, I can switch my blinky thing on and off from school.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2015, 01:15:18 pm
content: Quote from: zapta on December 06, 2015, 03:41:04 pmRight!I see this happen all the time. At some point engineers lose their ability to adopt. I still have no idea how and why this happens.Example: We are on an architecture meeting, new development. It is the good time, to discuss new ideas, adopt new technologies, start using new components.For example you are doing ultrasonic measurements (it can be anything), and for example something more accurate is needed. The old engineer will say, we need the exact same system as the old one, with better amplifiers and more matched filters.The open minded engineer will say, hey, TI just came out with this ASIC designed to do exactly for this. The ASIC is fraction of the cost and since it is a semiconductor, it will have a lot better tolerances than the passives.Everyone has stories like this. And the old engineer transcended (it is a new way of living) to the highly praised continuousness level that he is called a manager, killing new ideas as they are born.So yeah, whatever you did 20 years ago, might not be relevant anymore, because the information will be obsolete.Good example: People match the input impedance of opamps inverting and not inverting input, even if the offset current is ballpark the same as the bias current. Because it was necessary for the ua741, so that is what they teach at school. And they place the resistor, even if the amp has picoamp bias, kilovolt source and millivolt offset.If you point out that this is unnecessary and possibly increases offset, they look at you like YOU dont know what you are doing.So yeah, dont stop learning, read application notes and ALWAYS check the new components section.

author: SL4P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2015, 01:35:00 pm
content: That last post reminded me of some of the 'generation before me' in broadcast systems...We were already in colour, so that wasn't a problem, but the next mental hurdle for the traditionalists was how to engineer 'stereo' into a facility...Their minds couldn't get around patchfield layouts and other challenges that are quite simple!Then a few years later, the gradual shift to digital recording and signal processing/distribution... the idea that you couldn't simply tag a scope on a signal - and see everything was daunting to them. I remember a couple of guys that decided to toss it in at that point.

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2015, 01:54:25 pm
content: Quote from: NANDBlog on December 07, 2015, 01:15:18 pmWhen you stop learning you're dead. Or turn the words a little bit around: When I'm dead I'll stop learning. This is the philosopher's advice of the day

author: AF6LJ
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 07, 2015, 02:00:43 pm
content: Quote from: SL4P on December 04, 2015, 11:07:20 pmAs a career technician you have just stepped into the recurring theme of my career. Having worked in an RF production and RF repair environments this is the one constant day in and day out....At least as a production tech I coud get a share of control over a design and fix or head off some of the problems before the box left the factory.It was fun while it lasted.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2015, 03:10:40 pm
content: Quote from: SL4P on December 07, 2015, 01:35:00 pmYou have got me a little confused with the stereo comment:Nobody would possibly have a problem with producing two audio chains instead of one,so I guess you don't mean that.In Stereo TV in the Australian system,the stereo signal generation was normally done in the Tx Aural exciter.The techniques involved did not lend themselves readily to generation at the Studio & poking it up an STL.The simple method was to have two discrete audio channels, at least,as far as the signal input & outputs of the link were concerned,so I guess you aren't referring to that,either.FM Stereo is another thing altogether,where some stations fed Composite Stereo signals up the STL.I had to chase some problems in such a feed with a Spectrum Analyser.

author: nfmax
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2015, 03:35:52 pm
content: I've been called in to help out a project in its final stages - a complicated 'IoT' sensor with optics, FPGA's, high voltage, fast ADC's, high accuracy signal processing, all on a single PCB. I pointed out that they had neglected to fit a fuse (or other current limiting device) on the DC power input....

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2015, 06:33:08 pm
content: Quote from: madires on December 07, 2015, 12:09:37 pmThe experience to make that decision is clearlyextremelyvaluableAs someone once said, "if you think experience is expensive, you should try ignorance".

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2015, 06:34:35 pm
content: Quote from: madires on December 07, 2015, 12:40:41 pmAnd, due to inexperience, not thinking that so can anybody else, from anywhere in the world. Laugh? I could cry.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2015, 06:35:44 pm
content: Quote from: NANDBlog on December 07, 2015, 01:15:18 pmNeatly summed up by one of the only two mottoes that mean a damn: "Think". The other is the boy scout's motto, "Be Prepared".

author: LaserSteve
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2015, 09:28:06 pm
content: Steve's two main gripes.New EE graduates that post on forums, then basically want a design handed to them. We old farts suggest materials to read, or even send a pdf of a book over, and they never even look at them. Then the next day they post the same request again!.Hint to newbies! We old guys will teach you, but prolongued discussion has to occur, and that is a two way street.I do not see much analog innovation from "Generation Arduino". I do see a lot of copying of datasheet examples. Not everything in life can be made from modules, or building blocks. Granted many things today require a design and innovation team, not just a lone wolf inventer.Steve's second main gripe:Tell me how many times you have seen the following? "I bought a USB Flabergaster 2000 On Ebay, Anyone Have Have the Manual and Software?"You then find Flabergaster Corporation has an excellent web site, with PDFs with full schematics and tutorials, as well as the answer to the Meaning of Life.I'm positively floored with the number of people who will ask questions on forums, rather then call a support engineer, or email the factory. I see this one several times a week, in multiple forums. People who went to school for two to four years (Or More) and are scared to call a company, for no reason! I'm a former field support engineer, and I can attest to this hesitance to ask for help.This is not unique to EE, I work with dozens of CE students, at Graduate and Undergraduate level. I see the same hesitance to search, and communicate. Worse yet, I see it with Tenured Professors.Steve

author: SL4P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2015, 09:52:45 pm
content: Quote from: vk6zgo on December 07, 2015, 03:10:40 pmMy comment was re: baseband / production systems - which were as simple as you could get!As it was stereo, in an existing facility - they just couldn't get their heads around adding a (bantam) patchfield to replace mono TRS... and crazy suggestions like adding aseparateTRS jackfield (elsewhere in the same rack!) for the second channel!Then.. the number of times the concept of matching the phase of balanced pairs across the whole system was overlooked... it was incredible to watch for that six month period!(To their defence, we must remember these were the early, glory days of two-inch analog vt etc... It was for the most part dual channel audio... not strictly speaking 'stereo', but dragging the old tech forward certainly was workable if you knew what you were trying to achieve!)

author: MT
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 08, 2015, 01:04:08 am
content: Quote from: SL4P on December 06, 2015, 12:20:59 amWhy only two choices when ALL matters!?Else only money decides.

author: SL4P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 08, 2015, 01:17:26 am
content: To emphasise priorities...If you tickallthe options - we get a flat graph!~You need to choose - or didn't you parents tell you that (!)

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 08, 2015, 01:51:34 am
content: Quote from: SL4P on December 07, 2015, 09:52:45 pmDuring those early days,I was employed by Telecom Aust,who ran the ABC's & some regional Commercial Transmitters.All the ABCFM sites were fed discrete L & R audio,sometimes digitally multiplexed on local TV Tx STLs,by long distance microwave bearers,by Satellite,or occasionally by plain old landlines.Our Regional station used a combination of landlines & microwave bearers.One of our transmitter Staff members was by the way of having "Golden Ears".He insisted that the ABCFM programme had phasing errors L wrt R.The rest of us couldn't hear it,but eventually the Boss organised a test.Sure enough,there it was,a distinct phase error!It turned out that the Long Line blokes were working on the landline section,& had a fault,so ,not realising it was part of a Stereo pair,re-routed one (can't remember which) signal so it travelled 160km further than its mate.To bring it back on topic---all our years of experience weren't worth as much as a pair of "Golden Ears"!

author: MT
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 08, 2015, 02:49:26 am
content: Quote from: SL4P on December 08, 2015, 01:17:26 amNot if "only" i tick!QuoteNo they did not , i'm test tube baby! So, what you say is that all the people who readsyour thread are crazy and will tick all options so you deliberately limited to two options?!Now, why 2, why not 3 or 4, perhaps 1? Didnt your parents tell you dictatorship is bad?

author: SL4P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 08, 2015, 03:18:58 am
content: Quote from: MT on December 08, 2015, 02:49:26 am-- 'i tick' ?--Pretty much this!:: If you trawl through many threads here, you'll see thee is a wide diversity of participants. Some will pathologically ask for options that are not there, or don't suit their view of the world, and reject the proposition outright.That's a form of democracy at work. Be thankful ISIS aren't active on here or we'd have a laundry list of options that exclude any practical/realistic choices!Icreated the poll - so I get to set the terms! Neat huh?

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 08, 2015, 04:46:14 am
content: Jobs and local economy trailing, people are voting through ideals rather than common sense.quality doesn't mean much if you can't afford the goods.In my opinion of course.

author: Neganur
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 08, 2015, 05:37:36 am
content: Quote from: LaserSteve on December 07, 2015, 09:28:06 pmSo why would you not use the circuits the application engineer puts on that data sheet? And how are those circuit examples different from building blocks you learn at uni? Or were you pointing at a very specific experience?I think this is a great time saver but I guess that's not what you meant. I understood you like this: There is not an example solution to every problem.I'm also not sure it's fair to complain about the lack of analogue innovation when everything gets more and more integrated to fit the demand of today's design mentality.And on topic: I think experience is very valuable. Just don't focus on one thing alone.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 08, 2015, 05:47:28 am
content: Quote from: miguelvp on December 08, 2015, 04:46:14 amDoes 'common sense' mean agreeing with you?If individuals acts to stimulate the economy than its a manipulated economy.

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 08, 2015, 05:58:28 am
content: Quote from: zapta on December 08, 2015, 05:47:28 amThat's why I said in my opinion, but you didn't quote that

author: Mechanical Menace
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 08, 2015, 12:42:50 pm
content: I chose the first option because it's what I think the world at large cares about most and the poll was asking about, not what I think is most important.

author: MT
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 08, 2015, 07:49:04 pm
content: QuoteNo, you said "you tick", i said "i tick", not "they all tick"!Quote from: SL4P on December 08, 2015, 03:18:58 amEasy now on temper tantrums. Didn't say anything about your rights only that it seamed more reasonable then 2 options!QuoteDo poll reflect reality of vote options enabled "in general"? ! People tend to vote with wallets, unfortunately!Quote? the choice is between Daesh's one way and your two way option!? Huh!Quote from: tggzzz on December 04, 2015, 09:51:59 pmI have the same sense about it! I thought i was completely obsolete, and i am in some areasbut also as i discovered i'm not It's just that it have become harder to find opportunity to makemoney from it. Or sex!

author: suicidaleggroll
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 08, 2015, 08:19:33 pm
content: I selected the first two, since time has proven over and over again that, on the whole, that's what people and companies actually care about, despite what either of them claim.