The gurus never took an EE course. - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: dastructhm
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2022, 05:03:08 am
content: Paul HorowitzJim Williamsgeniuses?https://youtu.be/iCI3B5eT9NA

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2022, 05:12:50 am
content: Horowitz got a Ph.D in physics from Harvard. Why would he need to take an EE class?None of those people are geniuses, they were just good at what they were doing. There are a ton of people like this.

author: fourfathom
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2022, 05:50:24 am
content: Quote from: ataradov on August 23, 2022, 05:12:50 amDo you know this for a fact? Perhaps they are / were. Regardless, yes, there are many successful people who haven't taken the prescribed path to get to where they are. It seems that they tend to be smarter than average (but I don't know *that* for a fact.)I've often wondered what drives people to become engineers. I'm not claiming to be a genius, but I did get in through the back door, so to speak.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2022, 06:02:02 am
content: It depends on the definition of a "genius", I guess. They did not do anything exceptional. At least not that I can see. With a bit of initial fame, it is easier to get more famous. There were plenty of excellent engineers that just worked on stuff and did not stick out. And I personally refuse to worship people just because they have more recognizable names.

author: fourfathom
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2022, 06:17:43 am
content: I kind of worship Shannon. And I would say that Williams' output and influence was exceptional (but not uniquely so). Otherwise I agree with you. And there are plenty of unsung heroes out there.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2022, 06:26:42 am
content: I think a significant new contribution would qualify one to be a genius. In that respect Shannon would be one, IMO. Being good at teaching or applying existing knowledge is great, but is not enough to be a genius. Otherwise this definition would capture too many people.And I also don't see anything special about AoE. It is an ok enough book, but raising it to this cult item is misguided and potentially harmful for new people coming into the field.

author: fourfathom
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2022, 07:06:26 am
content: I'm just using the high-IQ definition of genius. Plenty of genius-level people accomplish little of value. Accomplishments are a different matter.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2022, 07:08:32 am
content: Quote from: ataradov on August 23, 2022, 06:02:02 amI would argue that the plethora of application notes that Jim Williams produced was quite exceptional, they are detailed, accurate, yet articulate and easy to read. He was also quite clearly a superb engineer. I don't think it's worship to call him a genius, indeed the dictionary definition of genius fits him quite well.1. an exceptional natural capacity of intellect, especially as shown in creative and original work in science, art, music, etc.2. a person having such capacity.3. a person having an extraordinarily high intelligence rating on a psychological test, as an IQ above 140.4. natural ability or capacity; strong inclination5. distinctive character or spirit, as of a nation, period, or language.I would argue that there are many more engineers that also fit the criteria of genius yet did not achieve the same level of fame or recognition.As for EE classes, many of the greats who studied electricity in the early days and developed the discipline of EE never took an EE class because they didn't exist. Throughout history there have been numerous brilliant engineers that were self taught.

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2022, 10:47:08 am
content: Quote from: james_s on August 23, 2022, 07:08:32 amI don't consider myself to be a genius, and according to herehttps://www.verywellmind.com/what-is-a-genius-iq-score-2795585I'm only "Moderately gifted".Having two brothers with reasonably high IQ's and good school track records and me dragging behind, I have been a bit obsessed with IQ tests and have taken several over the years. The lowest score was on a bad day and was 128, the highest was on a test from a TV based show and was 145. (https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Nationale_IQ_Test_(Nederland)) The only official one I took was for the Dutch air force and was only rated to 140, on which I had all the answers right.The one from the TV show, I lost some points on a language question about a new word. "swaffelen" It was the word of 2008 and it means to touch stuff with the tip of your penis ::https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SwaffelenAs if knowing that improves your intelligence

author: Keri Szafir
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2022, 05:38:34 pm
content: Don't call me a genius, or I'll take it as a sarcastic attempt to offend meMakes me wonder about how I would do on these tests... and makes me wonder even more about the accuracy of them. I'm pretty skeptical in that matter.Accomplishment stems from different factors, both internal (ie one's own features, knowledge, attitude, mental health etc.) and external (location, opportunities, access to facilities etc.). And something can be a huge accomplishment to some people and nothing worth mentioning to others, it's all relative.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2022, 05:45:02 pm
content: I tried to take mensa test a couple times. Both times I felt like it was a huge waste of my time and gave up after 5 minutes. I guess my IQ is low and I don't deserve to pay them money forever for a certificate.Any time IQ is used for anything other than goofing off, I just ignore the conversation. You can't seriously try to define intelligence by one number.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2022, 07:44:39 pm
content: Quote from: ataradov on August 23, 2022, 05:12:50 amWhile a PhD in physics will ensure a high level of knowledge in physics and a very sound scientific background, that doesn't mean you'd be a good EE. That sure means the guy was not Mr. Random with no education and 100% self-made, but that doesn't say a whole lot about his engineering abilities.Quote from: ataradov on August 23, 2022, 05:12:50 amUh yeah. I try not to fall into the trap of those big words, like "genius". They don't mean much and tend to imply there is something magical about someone's abilities, while most of the time it's just due to prolonged hard work.

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2022, 07:50:00 pm
content: There are multiple views on what is intelligence. Some say there are different types of intelligence, like musical, artistic, linguistic, scientific and so on.It all depends on how a test is assembled and tested in its own rights. You have to select a large enough pool of people with diverse enough intelligence and tweak the outcome of all the individual tests to match the wanted bell curve.For me the ability to solve visual or other puzzles based on a single example and with increasing difficulty, as a means to measure some sort of intelligence.Never looked into mensa, but had heard of it. Only recently it came to the table that a new friend of ours took a test many many years ago and is a member. He is not dumb but believes in a lot of conspiracies which makes me doubt his abilities.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2022, 07:58:30 pm
content: Mensa is an obvious scam. The real test of intelligence is the fact of membership. If you are a member, then you are dumb enough to pay them money for a certificate.Their PR people will scramble and tell you that it is a "club" with paid membership. I guess, you can call it that.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2022, 08:17:33 pm
content: Quote from: pcprogrammer on August 23, 2022, 07:50:00 pmFrom what I've seen, there doesn't seem to be a lot of correlation between intelligence and what sort of stuff a person believes in. There seems to be a portion of the brain that is dedicated to religion and other similar beliefs that appear to utilize a similar mechanism, that is separate from the other parts. I have known a number of people who I would consider to be highly intelligent who never the less hold what I see as some very strange and irrational beliefs.

author: PartialDischarge
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2022, 09:10:35 pm
content: Quote from: ataradov on August 23, 2022, 06:26:42 amAn ok enough book? Arguably the best book in electronics with 3 editions + the X chapters with advanced contents not seen anywhere and you don’t see anything special? My main conclusion is that your electronics level is very low, so that you can’t even appreciate it enough.Let us know when you do something similar in whatever field or work yours is

author: E-Design
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2022, 09:26:45 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on August 23, 2022, 08:17:33 pmJames, yes! what you say here has really boggled my mind over the years.. I have known and continue to collaborate with several people who I find naturally quite brilliant, creative and darn good problem solvers overall.. yet on occasion, I will come to learn about something they hold to be true that is completely irrational to me and I am frankly stunned that this kind of person can hold such a belief / theory etc..Now, I consider myself to be very non judgmental but I find it quite difficult on these occasions.. I feel like irrational beliefs have somehow poisoned their mind... and I am not talking about stuff that is generally debatable.. what a maddening situation this can be! say it aint so....

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2022, 09:38:45 pm
content: For me genius is a born gift to excel in some domain.Where others need 10000 hours of study and work to accomplish a certain level the genius will do this in less than 1000 hours and could do it at a younger age.In the current society having such a born gift can even work against you since the people around you where you have to interact with every day are unable to follow your train of thought, your interests etc. which results in isolation from the group. Luckily there now special schools but still my guess is that 80+ percent of born geniusses never will pop up, be it from a lack of exposure to the field where they could excel in (say a family where no-one ever played a musical instrument so a genius musical gifted child will not be exposed to this possibility) or where they will act normal to fit in.

author: Jester
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2022, 09:52:54 pm
content: I have never taken an IQ test, did graduate EE in a year less than average. I imagine I’m much closer to average than exceptional. My wife is truly exceptional, she was reading the newspaper at 4, skipped so many grades that her parents stopped it at some point because there was such a huge gap in age between her and her classmates, pretty much always received 100% on every school test and assignment, usually read a non related book in class while the lecture was going on. Attended private school for free just because they wanted her in the school. Graduated high school very early and then medical school etc. etc. photographic memory, speaks quite a few languages. Both of our kids must have inherited from her side;-)We play board games from time to time, the type that rely on strategy, my daughter wins more often than not, from an early age she would say “poor daddy” , she could “count cards” when she was a few years old.I agree with the learning 10x faster comment above. From observing my wife two things become obvious:1) ability to extract the facts and salient points while throwing away the noise when receiving a lot of info.2) ability to instantaneously detect incongruous details when flooded with a lot of information quickly.One really quirky thing about my wife is that she really has no sense of direction (right vs. left ), even though she does have a good sense of direction in the sense of not getting lost or finding a place. I know that sounds contradictory. If we’re driving and I say turn right I need to point or there is a 50% chance we’re going to turn left.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2022, 12:05:33 am
content: or being in a company that works with tons of EE and test equipment for years was a education. Jim Williams worked in MIT.The only thing he missed out on were poorly scheduled math tests. Back in those days the programming/computer focus was rareIf you ever worked in a university you will know its hard to stay away from topics that are relevant to the university if you have any kind of social behavior, there are so many eager people to repeat segments of lectures, proud of what they managed to put away into their minds, etc. Information diffuses in those areas. Only a job that is super compartmentalized (i.e. closet behind boiler room) would be spared from this.

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2022, 06:15:10 am
content: Quote from: Jester on August 23, 2022, 09:52:54 pmFunny that you mention that. It is a problem I have too. I have to point to the direction I intent to say because lots of times it would be the opposite. Have the same thing when talking about north and south in respect to up and down. For me north is often down. My wife finds me weird in this respectIn nowadays educational system I probably would have been set apart. My results on elementary or primary school (In the Netherlands "lagere school" for ages 6-12) where never to write home about, because I had no interest in what was being taught. I rather played. Only when I got more aware I got better but still only with subjects like math and science. At that point I was send to technical schools where it all improved. Wasted lots of years that way, and missed out on high level education. Taught myself a lot of what I know along the way while working.

author: hans
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2022, 07:02:53 am
content: Quote from: Kjelt on August 23, 2022, 09:38:45 pmYes it's a really unfortunate thing. The "gifted" children are set up for a wonderful career in whatever domain they pursue. But IQ is only half predictor of success, the other is hard work. And if they are never challenged at a young age, then they are likely to struggle and drop out at end of secondary school or college.And then there is the issue that life can generally get much harder with high IQ. People can't follow your train of thought, while those people may pick up far above average on details and have trouble with regulating that stimuli. Not to mention that a plenty chunk of the very gifted ones also struggle with neurodivergence like Autism, ADD, etc. which also often means trouble regulating emotions.To be honest, and this is almost an anti-scientific take on it, but I can't be fussed what a proper definition of a genius. You'll now when you spot one. For me personally though, as running around in academia with plenty of very clever people, I think staying humble is one of the pristine properties after you have jumped over all the bars of master/Phd degrees, tenure tracks, etc. Some people may brag about IQ, mental arithmetic capability, recalling events, working memory, etc.etc. but for me a lot of it becomes void if you can't be a humble human that can also recognize his/her bias, domain of expertise and limits thereof, projections or expectations on/of others, etc.It's unfortunate that a lot of the popular genius' would be disqualified by these criteria.

author: SoundTech-LG
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2022, 03:25:40 am
content: ‘Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it’s stupid.’https://medium.com/skilluped/what-made-albert-einstein-a-genius-806ce9e783f5

author: MikeK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2022, 11:41:02 pm
content: I don't understand the point of this thread. The assertion is that they were good at what they did and didn't take an EE class? If that is true...Who cares? Self-education in a field as a means to achieve something is getting rarer and rarer, since low hanging fruit gets picked first. The underlying assertion, I think, is what is known as the Galileo defense used by crackpot pseudoscientists: "Galileo was persecuted and I'm also being persecuted...therefore I'm just like Galileo (and, hence, I have something of value)." Get an EE degree if you want to do something in EE.

author: TimFox
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2022, 11:59:12 pm
content: I met Paul Horowitz when I was in graduate school at Chicago, when he was on the Harvard faculty working on similar experimental physics topics to those our group was working on.At that time, he was doing practical engineering work on medical devices for a company.According to his wiki biography: "Horowitz holds professorial appointments at Harvard in both physics and electrical engineering."He is now emiritus at Harvard.https://www.physics.harvard.edu/people/facpages/horowitz

author: langwadt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2022, 01:19:29 am
content: Quote from: hans on August 24, 2022, 07:02:53 amyears ago there was a story about the highest scoring mensa member in Denmark, he worked as a postman ..

author: fourfathom
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2022, 01:19:49 am
content: Quote from: MikeK on August 27, 2022, 11:41:02 pmAre you seeing this here? I'm sure not.Quote from: MikeK on August 27, 2022, 11:41:02 pmExcellent advice. But there *are* engineers who worked their way up the ladder, without a degree, into a successful and rewarding career. I'm one. Yes, it's probably harder to do this now than it was for me when I started as a technician in the 1970's but it's still possible, especially in software. Stories like those in the OP are valuable reminders that we should consider all factors when evaluating engineers, and people in general. But get the degree if you can.

author: Ground_Loop
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 29, 2022, 12:30:39 am
content: Quote from: ataradov on August 23, 2022, 05:12:50 amI've always maintained that that the best engineers are also physicists.

author: fourfathom
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 29, 2022, 02:50:08 am
content: Quote from: Ground_Loop on August 29, 2022, 12:30:39 amAnd I've always felt that there are different kinds of engineer. Some are great with the theory, and others are great with overall concept and structure. In other words, some see trees and others see forests. I don't have a degree and recognize my weakness on the theoretical side (but at times I've used more theory than some degreed engineers I've worked with.) But I've got broad experience and exposure in many areas, so I can sometimes find a solution space more readily than the deep-theory engineers. On many jobs you really want big-picture as well as fine-detail types. I suppose the best engineer would combine both, and that's something we can all aspire to.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 29, 2022, 03:38:36 pm
content: Quote from: Ground_Loop on August 29, 2022, 12:30:39 amI will never forget the 8500 lines of c code I got from an older PhD to integrate in the total machine software.About 200+ variables , 100 (unneeded to be) global variables and the name of the longest was three letters, most were two. Some lines were over 150 characters long."Know your formula's he said"

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 29, 2022, 07:00:20 pm
content: Quote from: Ground_Loop on August 29, 2022, 12:30:39 amNot sure that this statement can be backed up by any evidence though.

author: Bicurico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 29, 2022, 08:15:41 pm
content: I have met brilliant minds. They fascinate me. But somehow it is like a D&D game: you can only distribute your 100% total in intelligence, social skills, etc. Put everything into intelligence and you lose all other skills.I once met this brilliant guy working as a programmer and heavy maths. He had really poor social skills. At the gala dinner you could literally see him mentally compile code, while others were having a laugh. It was so bad that he couldn't really coordinate his body. I mean he could walk, but it looked strange. But yes, he was the brightest mind in the company. He could solve math problems in no time. When he was hired, in the interview they gave him a math problem that nobody could solve, just to see how the candidate would handle it. Well, he did solve it.I know that I am not dumb and fairly smart. But I have met people that are so much smarter than I. Where I need to read a concept several times and think about it, so that I finally understand it, others get it on the first reading.It is no problem to not be as smart, as other skills like social skills get you further than smartness alone.Want to see an example of smartness? I find this video amusing:Still have not fully understood all the details...

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 29, 2022, 08:21:17 pm
content: Quote from: ataradov on August 23, 2022, 06:02:02 amI'm more interested in people who aren't so well-known who have contributed to technology.Jagadis Chandra Bosesprings to mind.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 29, 2022, 09:49:43 pm
content: Quote from: Bicurico on August 29, 2022, 08:15:41 pmWhat a blunder then from the inquirer. It could be solved.In a company I was given a test for which you get half an hour precise to finish it. But question #5 of 10 would take about twenty minutes to solve. After one minute I saw that this would take too long and skipped it continuing with the other questions.Got a 9 out of 10 and the guy who took it said "only 15% skips that question which is the right thing to do to maximize your score"After that I googled it and this was done often inuniversities to test insight.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 29, 2022, 10:11:28 pm
content: Quote from: Kjelt on August 29, 2022, 09:49:43 pmIn school I participated in a programming olympiad and for one of the problems a program needed to output "yes" or "no" for a given set of inputs. I did not have time to properly solve the problem, so I just printed "yes" for any inputs and got some extra points for free. According to the rules, the code was only looked at if there is a draw, and it never came to it.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2022, 12:41:54 am
content: Quote from: ataradov on August 29, 2022, 10:11:28 pmLOLFaced with that same situation I probably would have found the simplest thing to test for and printed out yes when that was true, and then for anything else randomly choose either yes or no.