minimum qualifications required for mains powered equipment assembly - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / projects

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 12, 2013, 12:50:48 pm
content: My work place are going to be building equipment that runs off the mains. No one in the company actually has any official qualifications for wiring up mains gear. Where do we stand and if someone needs a qualification to assemble it or inspect it what is it ?This is for the UK

author: fcb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2013, 01:00:10 pm
content: No special requirements. I know a few sub-contract houses that do this and apart from one client insisting on a HiPot test - nothing.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 12, 2013, 01:03:09 pm
content: So anyone with no qualifications can wire up mains devices on behalf of an employer ? sounds like a gap in the law as legally I can't touch the wiring in my own house.......

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2013, 01:34:08 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on December 12, 2013, 01:03:09 pmYou live in the UK. Aren't you used to gaps in the law?

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2013, 01:43:49 pm
content: QuoteHaving functional hands is probably the minimum.

author: fcb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2013, 01:44:30 pm
content: I read your posting Simon as your "company will be manufacturing a product that plugs into the main", rather than "we need to wire something to the mains".If the former, then you probably just need to prove to your product liability insurance provider your being "competent", so perhaps a written build and test procedure followed by recording test results would be appropriate.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 12, 2013, 02:28:10 pm
content: I see yes we are plugging into the mains not wiring directly although it is not quite that simple. We are building units for use in trains that provide 240V to what will be a fixed installation (our unit) it plugs in merely for installation and removal convenience but is a permanent fixture of the train.

author: TheBay
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 12, 2013, 02:31:11 pm
content: As long as you use correct rated fuses, EU harmonised wiring, correct gauge wiring, Double insulated or Earthed properly, fitted mains plugs is a must, molded ideally! or IEC socket/cable is a way around fixed installation. You can't supply something with bare wires. You could HiPot/Pat test them before hand or pay someone to come in to do a bulk load, but there is no real need at all, so no qualifications required, just need to be built to standard and "Competent"

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 12, 2013, 02:35:49 pm
content: I see, well we are providing a 3 pin panel mounted deutsch socket to plug into from the train with a cable.

author: TheBay
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 12, 2013, 02:40:57 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on December 12, 2013, 02:35:49 pmA Schuko ?

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 12, 2013, 03:26:40 pm
content: NO, it's a type of connection system made by a company called deutsch that are now owned by TE, they are typically used in industrial, military and rail/transport as they are well IP rated and known to be rugged. They are not a standard household plug.

author: minime72706
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2013, 03:51:39 pm
content: In the UK, as a homeowner, you cannot do your own electrical work, with or without a permit?

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2013, 03:57:37 pm
content: Quote from: minime72706 on December 12, 2013, 03:51:39 pmOf course you can.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 12, 2013, 04:03:32 pm
content: As far as I know you can as long as it is a "spur" and plugs into something but you can't work on the actual house wiring system, of course in theory it means that you can wire your whole house up and then plug it into a socket fitted by an electrician under your meter but until someone is killed because of this no one is bothered.But what I am talking about is wiring up a device that will be a permanent fixture in a train and operates off 240VAC delivered to it from the train.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2013, 04:05:40 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on December 12, 2013, 04:03:32 pmThat's not the definition of a spur. If it's clipped to the walls it's as fixed as any of the other wiring, whether it's plugged in or hard wired.You can do all the wiring you like in your property so long as it's done to regulations and the appropriate tests are performed. Supposedly it must be done by a 'competent person', but this is not strictly defined. Simply doing it correctly and proving you've done so is proof enough of competence as far as the paperwork is concerned.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 12, 2013, 04:18:11 pm
content: and this applies also to the "competence requirements" of people assembling "in the course of business" ie not for personal use ?

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2013, 04:19:25 pm
content: I'm afraid that I don't know about. I would suggest extensive protection of posterior as a business.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 12, 2013, 04:20:16 pm
content: Quote from: Pippy on December 12, 2013, 04:06:43 pmI'm essentially trying to work out if:1) my employers requires a qualified person to carry out this work or inspect and sign it off.2) there are any convincing points i have in getting them to send me on a course if it's helping them too

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 12, 2013, 04:21:59 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on December 12, 2013, 04:19:25 pmthat is what I'm asking, as a business is my employer best protecting their posteriors by sending someone (me) on a course to get the basic qualifications required to make the things.So how do we stand in me making a piece of test equipment that is powered off the mains that will not be used by me ?

author: PaulAm
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2013, 04:36:45 pm
content: I think you should be directing these questions to a) your business insurance agent/company and b) a local product liability attorney, or at least your company's legal counsel. They all get paid to get the answer right. Doesn't mean they will, but your chances are better and at least you can turn around and sue them if they screw up.You're not really going to bet your and your company's future on answers posted on an internet forum, are you? If so, I just won a $15 M lottery in Nigeria and I need a partner ....

author: grumpydoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2013, 04:40:07 pm
content: Quote from: MonkehUnfortunately Elfin Safety met up with EU protectionisim and had a child called the "Part P" regulations.Edit: Quite right too BTW - obviously allmywiring is safe but eveyone else is a dangerous loon who will electrocute themselves if allowed to carry out such dangerous activities.As a result there are a couple of things you can do with no fuss (including adding a fused spur to an existing ring main, new lighting sockets, replacing small bits of existing cabling and a few other bits - see Table 1 in the document linked below). Beyond that if the work is "notifyable" you can do it but can't certify it which needs a suitably registered person to inspect and certify.http://www.planningportal.gov.uk/uploads/br/BR_PDF_AD_P_2010.pdffor the detail.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 12, 2013, 04:42:33 pm
content: Quote from: PaulAm on December 12, 2013, 04:36:45 pmI'm just looking for some background before I go to my boss and put it to him, true enough we need proper advice

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2013, 04:44:39 pm
content: Quote from: grumpydoc on December 12, 2013, 04:40:07 pmHave you read Part P? It's not long, and it says nothing at all about certification or notifying. Approved Document P is not the regulations, and it is not Part P.'Reasonable provision' consists of conducting the installation and testing to a suitable standard. Say, BS7671?So, there's nothing preventing you from doing DIY electrical work of any scale within your own property except your own skills and some paperwork. Approved Document P shows you how to do this.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2013, 04:57:22 pm
content: The broad answer to this question is that the product you are manufacturing must comply with all relevant standards and requirements for operator safety and insurance liability. The assembly of the product is just one link in the chain that is part of the whole picture. At a minimum I would expect that the business would need to ensure the person doing the assembly has been trained in how to do it so that the assembled product is not defective and performs as designed. (Ensuring the design is satisfactory is another part of the chain.)

author: AndyC_772
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2013, 05:20:56 pm
content: It's quite true that the various rules are inconsistent. Ridiculously so, in fact.More than likely, your product needs to be CE marked. This mark indicates thatyoudeclare the product to be compliant with all applicable EU directives.In terms of electrical safety, this will be the Low Voltage Directive, and the applicable standard is EN 60950 (or some other related standard, depending on the specific type of equipment you're producing).EN 60950 (or whatever) defines the technical characteristics your product is required to meet. It specifies things like isolation and earthing requirements, flammability, creepage and clearance distances, and so on. You should ensure your product is designed according to this standard. If you desire formal documentation that your product meets the standard, then you may use a 3rd party test lab to test it for you - but the responsibility is still yours even if you have a report that says "compliant" on it. In the event that your product hurts somebody, that report is a good defence against a claim of negligence or non-compliance, but the buck still stops with you.Since you are the one applying the CE mark, you are responsible for declaring that the finished product is compliant. There is no specific certification that the person assembling your equipment needs to meet - at least, not in a legal sense, and not for most ordinary commercial, industrial and domestic equipment.You, however, may wish to impose training and/or certification requirements on your assembly staff, if that helps make you confident that they are able to carry out the work safely and correctly. The reason is simple: you're attaching the CE mark, so it's your neck on the block if they screw up.(Note: by "You" I'm referring to the person whose name appears on the CE declaration of conformity, which is a certificate you should include with the product or in the manual. Typically this would be the Technical Director, CEO or other senior member of staff who has the authority to stop production if necessary. Responsibility for compliance is personal... in the worst case, the person whose name appears on that certificate goes to jail).And yes, it's quite absurd that I can't freely work on the electrical wiring in my own home, but I can build mains powered products and sell them to you without having done any testing on them whatsoever - provided I attach a CE mark and thereby declare them "safe".

author: grumpydoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2013, 05:42:39 pm
content: QuoteTo quote HM Gov on the planning website "This section covers the technical guidance contained in Part P (Approved Document P) of schedule 1 of the Building Regulations."Which I certainly read as "Part P" is the same document as "Approved Document P", at least that's what I've always understood.I linked the wrong version though - the 2013 version is athttp://www.planningportal.gov.uk/uploads/br/BR_PDF_AD_P_2013.pdf

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2013, 05:46:26 pm
content: Quote from: grumpydoc on December 12, 2013, 05:42:39 pmPart P is Part P of the Building Regulations. Which is very short.Still, Approved Document P marks out how to perform any scale of electrical work you wish on your property.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2013, 06:11:33 pm
content: Part P was conceived on two completely false premises - firstly that faulty fixed electrical installations were a major cause of injury - in fact the figures used included portable equipment, which represented teh vast majority of cases.Secondly, some idiot though that a domestic installation could be tested by just plugging something into the wall.A major intention was actually to stamp out tax-evading cowboys and "protect" the interests of the industry, who were all too happy to use scare tactics to get their way.A major problem is that though the requirement is that electrical work be done by "competent" people, the word "competent" has been redefined as "Belonging to an approved trade body".I can legally do work on my own gas installation, but not many types of electrical stuff, at least not without doing the same Buidling regs paperwork as for major building works.Of course most people treat this garbage with the respect it deserves and completely ignore it. Even the big DIY stores have long since stopped putting notices about it in the electrical parts sections.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2013, 06:31:14 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on December 12, 2013, 06:11:33 pmA great deal of the testing is little more complicated than that. The equally necessary inspection component, of course..QuoteThere's no requirement in the building regulations for electrical work to be performed by a competent person (and, in fact, the wording in the document is 'registered competent person'). iirc there's a lot of 'competent person' spread around BS7671, but I don't believe it's defined.QuoteThere does need to be a much lower price band for electrical work to be notified. My council will charge at least £150 if I want to go that route. However, so long as a new circuit is not installed and the work is not within a special location, you do not need to notify for works.

author: grumpydoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2013, 07:23:35 pm
content: QuoteOK, yes, now that I look at it all you are correct - apologies. Interesting.Of course the regulations, like many bits of legislation are not all that useful because the stipulate that "Reasonable provision" must be made without defining what "Reasonable provisions" actually are - which is where, AFAICS, Document P comes in.Also, although Document P might not be part of the regulations there are bits which are (or appear to be) - eg Regulation 12(6)(b) which is the list of work that you can carry out without giving Building Notice.