Rigol DSO2302A or DHO1072? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: Fotom
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2023, 08:53:20 pm
content: Hello,I am new on this board and not yet pretty familiar with all the input here...But I have a question:At the moment I have a MicSig SATO1004 for testing purposes on automotive issues. But for another project I would prefer a desk mount "regular" scope. That makes things easier and I have enough space to put a scope next to all the stuff on my bench.I have now an offer for a Rigol DSO2302A and for a DHO1072. I now am a little bit puzzled about which one I should take. Maybe at the end of the day it better should be none of them and better a MSO...The advantages of the DSO2302A:- higher bandwidth- 1ns slew rateThe advantages of the DHO1072:- bigger size of monitor- bigger size of memory (the 100M option is included)- newer modelBoth have 2GSa/s, 2 channels and 12 Bit ADC (which I prefer).Besides he DHO is 120 Euro cheaper and if I need more bandwidth it is upgradeable.Which one would you take?Best regards and many thanks for your thoughts!

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2023, 09:24:25 pm
content: Hi and welcome to the forum..QuoteNo, the DS2302 have 8 bit resolution, 12 bit in high resolution mode, the DHO1072 is a true 12 bit scope.Besides the bandwidth, there are hardly any points that still speak for such an older scope model.In the bare data comparison, it is inferior to the DHO in almost all points, if it is only about the two, I would clearly advise the DHO.However, 2 channels might not be enough for you at some point, I would consider that.If it is not only about the two, I would consider the (hopefully soon to be released) SDS1000X-HD model (also "real" 12bit).It doesn't have the higher screen resolution as the DHO and also no hdmi output, but should have "out of the box" the less buggy software/UI, as well as the better FFT function, bodeplot possibility (missing from the DHO).So, between DS2302A and DHO1072, clearly the DHO.If something else comes into question, possibly think about the SDS1000X-HD, which unfortunately is not yet on the market.

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2023, 09:56:47 pm
content: "I have now an offer"Why not say what this offer is.

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2023, 10:04:08 pm
content: Maybe a used one - So I thought first as I´ve read his post.But it´s still avaible:https://www.batronix.com/shop/oscilloscopes/Rigol-DS2302A.html

author: Fotom
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2023, 10:17:39 pm
content: Ah, I am sorry. The price is no secret.Around 850 for the DSO2302A and 750 for the DHO1072.Actually I found another MSO2302A for 879. What would be the advantages there.And are you sure it is 8 Bit instead of 12 Bit? The specs say 12...The MSO is maybe more attractive. I want to check the CAN bus operations on a bench- setup with several ECUs.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2023, 10:20:57 pm
content: Run away from the Rigol DSO2000 / MSO2000. Old junk with unfinished firmware.Run away from Rigol in general while you are at it. The worst mistake you can make is thinking that the low price gets you a functional tool.

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2023, 10:26:36 pm
content: Nico with his directly kind...QuoteAfter a DS1054Z I had a DS2072, so yes, I´m sure.BTW, specs...look at the pic below.

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2023, 11:32:27 pm
content: DSO2000 is fine for hobby use, not "unfinished", I had one back in the day and was completely usable for everday tasks (2012).However, I sold it many years ago for ~$300 so it makes no sense to pay $800 for it now.Anyway. OP, what are you going to be using it for on the bench? analog, digital? what speeds?

author: Fotom
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2023, 11:44:29 pm
content: Ok, I see. That is another reason for the new DHO1072. I think the 2 vs. 4 channel question might be more interesting.I want to control several ECU on CAN (max speed 500kB/s) and LIN for functional tests. Maybe there will be FlexRay come to it as well. Not sure about the specs there, but 70MHz should be fine.Well, the Rigol are maybe as old as the Siglent in the same price range. The benefit of them is the digital phosphor display. But I could not see the advantage there.As you see I am open for anything. Sure, a Rohde & Schwarz would be fine as well but unfortunately unaffordable. It is for hobby in this case but I do not want to spend money for nothing. Literally spoken.

author: Fotom
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2023, 11:45:50 pm
content: Quote from: Martin72 on August 25, 2023, 10:26:36 pmThe Rigol page says 12 Bit when more than 5 micro Volts, 8 below 2.

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2023, 11:49:10 pm
content: Quote from: Fotom on August 25, 2023, 11:44:29 pmYou probably want a dedicated logic analyzer instead, or in addition to. Sigrok software supports CAN, LIN, and flexray, and will be more convenient to use than a small scope (IMO).https://sigrok.org/wiki/Protocol_decodersBut what are you controlling them with, test software on the PC side? Are you looking at signal integrity or decoding and recording transmissions?

author: Fotom
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2023, 11:58:18 pm
content: I will "simulate" a complete car and besides that I can go for the single ECU for flashing and coding. For that I have DTS Monaco and Vediamo for older stuff.The MSO should decode LIN and CAN at least as far as I have read the specs. That would be interesting when there are more than 2 ECUs on the desk involved. The DHO comes with LIN and CAN decoding as well.But besides that I had several situations when it would have been great to have a scope to check if there was something bad on the bus in the car as well without needing a decoding capability but simply "signal ok or not".

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2023, 12:47:50 am
content: For your purpose I'd definitely get a 4 channel scope. But how about using the MicSig on your desk? The MicSig scopes work fine on a desk as well. Unfortunately MSO functions on the lower cost scopes you are looking at (check the reviews & comments from people actually owning those scopes) are not that good so getting an external logic analyser might be a better idea.

author: Fotom
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2023, 02:40:29 pm
content: Yes, the 4 channels would be better, you are right and that was what I thought already.What other scopes would you prefer instead of Rigol?

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2023, 07:01:53 pm
content: Quote from: Fotom on August 26, 2023, 02:40:29 pmOnes that work as expected. At the lower end: GW Instek or Micsig. At the higher end: Keysight, R&S, Tektronix and Yokogawa. But keep in mind I make a living from using an oscilloscope.

author: adam4521
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2023, 10:49:39 pm
content: In the market today you do need to consider the HD oscilloscopes that are around the corner from Siglent and Rigol. They are popular brands for good reason. Risking some kickback here, I'll stick my neck out and say that Rigol emphasise novel design and feature count (maybe overreaching themselves sometimes) while Siglent appear to have a magic touch for low noise design and max-ing performance (bandwidth, FFT, Bode plot etc) in cost effective hardware. Rigol have a strange habit of keeping older designs in production forever, which has led to a bizarre overlap of features and prices, as you have discovered. Both of these brands have very high % second hand resale value so you don't take much risk if in the end you want to move to something else. I'm not sure what is like in your region, but in the UK GW Instek are over-priced, their products are available rebadged as RS Pro but not super-competitive. The differentiated product qualities and user experience of Keysight, R&S highly respected but Keysight have made it clear they are not doing hobbyist market any more (they hiked 'entry level' prices up by c. 25%, just to be sure), and bandwidth and other upgrades tend to be super expensive if you have to add them later. Tektronix still have an affordable entry range in the TBS series, but it has no memory or feature enhancements at all -- don't expect to find decoders there.

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2023, 11:41:33 pm
content: QuoteNot only in the UK.The price/performance/feature ratio is simply poor and most models are also rather old-fashioned.I recently had a look at the GWInstek portfolio and came to this conclusion.About Keysight, Lecroy (Nico had forgotten to mention), Tektronix we need not talk as hobbyists.If these brands offer something in our price range, then you might as well go for the "original" and help yourself to the China man.Or, what they offer for "little money", for the money I get somewhere else incomparably more and better.R&S takes a special role here.But even they have nothing "cheap" to offer.No, in the range up to 1000€/$, and I assume this for the topic creator, there is no way around the two top dogs Rigol and Siglent.Then he wants to have 12Bit, only Rigol remains at the moment, because the "small" Siglent 1000 HD is not yet on the market.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2023, 12:01:13 am
content: Quote from: Martin72 on August 26, 2023, 11:41:33 pmUntil you actually start using one, you'll find out their oscilloscopes are very nice & efficient to use. A lot of thought went into making the user interface efficient and clear. And no surprises with features that don't work or are not quite right. The same goes for the Tektronix TBS2000 series. Once you use one, you'll quickly appreciate how well they work.The biggest mistake to make is to select an instrument based on the longest list with features and forget about quality of implementation. A feature you never need is worth nothing while a user interface that keeps getting in the way of your work is a nuisance forever.So when selecting an oscilloscope with a limited budget, it is very important to have a clear list with requirements and buy the one which is most suitable. Nothing more and nothing less. Even better: create list with tests and test whether the oscilloscope (or any piece of equipment) you ordered meets your requirements. This helps to understand the instrument and return it when it turns out to be a dud.The perfect oscilloscope does not exist. At the moment I own 5 oscilloscopes (from cheap to very expensive) and every one of them can do something special the others can't.BTW: I specifically left Lecroy out because their scopes are more geared towards analog signal analysis and thus are less usefull for general purpose digital / analog debugging work.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2023, 12:43:50 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on August 27, 2023, 12:01:13 amGarbage.https://www.teledynelecroy.com/oscilloscope/wavesurfer-3000z-oscilloscopeshttps://www.teledynelecroy.com/oscilloscope/t3dso3000-series-oscilloscopeshttps://www.teledynelecroy.com/oscilloscope/t3dso2000-series-oscilloscopeshttps://www.teledynelecroy.com/oscilloscope/t3dso1000-series-oscilloscopesHowever LeCroy pricing vs OEM is another matter.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2023, 09:07:15 am
content: Quote from: tautech on August 27, 2023, 12:43:50 amNone of those are real Lecroy scopes! Lecroy always has been rebadging other brands (like Iwatsu as well) to fill in the gaps in their lineup; especially at the lower end. And you known that very well.

author: NE666
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2023, 09:53:09 am
content: Quote from: Fotom on August 25, 2023, 11:44:29 pmIf you're working predominantly in the digital domain, another consideration for you might be the Rigol MSO5000. Not 12-bit but perfectly useable and very well suited to digital. All versions have 16 digital channels (although you'll need the additional LA cable, which is not inexpensive, unless you purchase a clone on eBay) and the 4 (analogue) channel version seems to have a number of offers around at this time, including all protocol decodes "free" (including FlexRay). Easily hackable to 350Mhz bandwidth. Nice 9" screen.You may benefit from (probably will *need*, at some point) a standalone LA/protocol analyser too but that goes for any MSO of any brand. An MSO is not a LA, in exactly the same way that a LA isn't an MSO.Or, if time is on your side, you could perhaps consider the new Rigol DHO900 series, which "has the best of both worlds", in that it has digital (MSO) capability plus 4 16-bit analogue channels. Pricing could be very competitive but it's not on general sale in Europe yet and the jury is thus out on it. There is suggestion that Dave may carry a review of it (or the DHO800) in the coming days. In my view, the 7" screen is a bit questionable for an MSO but the form-factor is closer to your MicSig. The biggest issue may be that it looks as if you won't see a shipment until well into October, if not later, so it is also vapourware (like the 2000X HD) at this time for all practical purposes.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2023, 10:21:10 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on August 27, 2023, 09:07:15 amYou mean like some HPAK scopes were Rigols ?QuoteI do.However I won't go making generalizations without qualification as you have.15 years back I looked hard at a GW Instek and thought they were overpriced and nearly brought a Uni-t insteadbut instead opted for a Tek TDS2000B a vastly better DSO than either ...... at that time.However these days the last in the above list of LeCroy's DSO's would blow its socks off and my SDS1104X-E has certainly lasted longer than that Tek.Quote from: NE666 on August 27, 2023, 09:53:09 amError ^https://www.siglenteu.com/digital-oscilloscopes/sds2000x-hd-digital-storage-oscilloscope/My SDS1204X HD is not a figment of imagination.https://www.siglent.com/products-overview/sds1000x-hd/

author: NE666
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2023, 12:03:12 pm
content: However these days the last in the above list of LeCroy's DSO's would blow its socks off and my SDS1104X-E has certainly lasted longer than that Tek.Quote from: tautech on August 27, 2023, 10:21:10 amWith apologies, indeed my unintended error. I wrote 2000X HD but was thinking 1000X HD, which speculation so far has placed within approximately the same price range as the scopes in the OP's original question.

author: Fotom
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2023, 08:39:45 pm
content: I thank you all for your interesting different points of view and all the very useful input to think about.I do understand the point of usability. The GW Instek and R&S scopes are slightly different in the front end, compared to the "usual all in one scopes". But they all come down to the main "Auto" button which I will use in 99% of all test scenarios. But why not, it was invented and I pay for it, so it should work for me...The bandwidth is maybe not the big point. All ECUs work with around 12V DC. The need for bus traffic is the nut breaker, but with around 500kB on CAN and the need of minimum 2 channels to compare the signal integrity the need is not so high. Not sure what speed LIN has but much less than CAN. FlexRay could get interesting, too, and should be much faster. But the MicSig has that capability and with 4 channels and 100MHz it is ok for that I guess. On my test- bench it should work as well.So the need for an ultra accurate scope might not be in my main focus. But why not looking for wide bandwidths and fast sampling rate?I use every equipment (tools or other gear) by reading the manual first. Ok, a hammer is maybe clear to use. But in this particular case the MicSig disappointed. The comedians at MicSig have changed ground and calibration signal and the owners manual showed a picture where there is vice versa. When calibrating the first time the scope showed a lot of interesting things but no 1kHz calibration signal. So, even the expensive gear is equivalent to the cheap stuff... at the end I think it is sometimes learning by doing. And I know: A fool with a tool is still a fool...I would rather prefer R&S, but that would be way too much money spend in a testing device that I would use only for 15% of its possibilities, especially its accuracy. So why not looking for something cheaper? But I do not want to buy old stuff if I can get newer and better gear for the same money or even less. I would not hesitate to invest more money, but the question is: What for and what will it be used?The use of a tool sometimes comes up when it is available. But if someone has other opinions I am still open minded.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2023, 08:50:11 pm
content: Maybe you should rephrase the question: what capabilities are you looking for that the MicSig oscilloscope you have doesn't provide? From experience I know this kind of question (in general) can be a very though one to find a clear answer for especially if you want to spend your money wisely.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2023, 09:30:01 pm
content: Quote from: Fotom on August 27, 2023, 08:39:45 pmStill, you need set yourself some basic requirements for these. ^^^Typically 1 GSa/s is enough which with applying Nyquist will provide ~400 MHz butonlyfor a single channel.Engage a 2nd and sampling and mem depth halves and in DSO's with a single ADC, a 3rd channel can halve that again.DSO's that use 2 or more ADC's don't suffer in the same way if we use them smart by assigning channels to each ADC. Only when a 3rd channel is activated are there impacts on the sampling rate and therefore also max BW.

author: Fotom
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2023, 12:02:55 am
content: Yes, this is maybe the best question. So far I am well equipment with gear and I will figure out what exactly I miss when I start the project.Like you said already, some gear has pros that others do not have.The MicSig is well for in car operation, the pros are:- very mobile- no need to have a power cord- cables for the probes are connected on the top (but sometimes they are slightly short)- touch usability- no ground issuesLet me finish my first setup on my bench with the equipment and I will find out what I maybe miss.

author: Fotom
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 28, 2023, 11:02:47 pm
content: After the teardown shown herehttps://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigols-new-dho800-oscilloscope-unbox-teardown/the HDO800 will be out of my interest.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 29, 2023, 01:27:15 am
content: Quote from: Fotom on August 27, 2023, 08:39:45 pmThat sounds like a Rigol MSO5000 to me ... 350Mhz bandwidth, 8GSa/s sample rate.(all hackable from the base model)

author: Fotom
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 29, 2023, 02:24:13 am
content: The MSO5000 indeed is very interesting. I was a bit too slow... there had been a 5074 for €749 last week... couldn't fetch it.

author: skander36
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 29, 2023, 08:20:22 am
content: Rigol 2K is a good scope fast and stable but as others said has an 8 bit ADC. It cand do Hi-Res with limited BW but software as many scopes do. It has 50 ohm input and LA with a proprietary format connector. You can do you job with him, but is a little outdated for this times. You will not get FW updates as last FW is from 2019. I've had a 2072 but I changed it for Rigol 5K.HDO1072 (I have also this model) is a much better choice, because is a modern design. At the time it was launched this firmware was not very stable but now at v. 2.07 it do a good job. No LA, No AWG or Bode Plot.I think Rigol 5K is better for you. It has 4 channels and full of features.(Touch zone trigger,more decoding protocols,2 ch. AWG, Bode plot, power analisys,). It can be noisy for very low signals but for protcol decoding is perfect.The only problem with Rigol is lack of technical support. On rigol Europe is only an email adress(info-europe@rigol.com) where you get no answer. So I strongly recomend to purchase through resellers like Batterfly or Batronix which have their own support channels and help you with any problem.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 29, 2023, 03:20:14 pm
content: IMHO the Rigol MSO5000 has too much noise. Whenever you do want to look at a an analog signal, you'll be looking at a band of noise and missing out on the information you need. Hi-res is just a crutch. I used to own a very noisy scope (expensive model as well) and it was a nuisance to use.

author: skander36
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 29, 2023, 04:33:57 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on August 29, 2023, 03:20:14 pmYes it's clear that Rigol5k is not suitable for analyzing low level audio/radio signals. But over 50 mV RMS, is perfectly usable. Also you can analyze low signals captured with maximum memory (200 mpts).I didn't find HiRes function too much useful on any scope I used.If the OP is bind to these two models I would recomend HDO1072.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 29, 2023, 06:40:21 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on August 29, 2023, 03:20:14 pmSimply not true.It's only a problem when you're looking at mV signals, which plenty of peoplenever do.

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 29, 2023, 07:34:49 pm
content: So plenty of people do not need a 12 bit scope...(Which is a fact)Noise of the rigol 5000:I´ve measured the ripple of a linear supply (1mV rms ripple according to the datsheet) with my former MSO5074.First pic shows....Noise.Second pic shows the ripple when using averaging mode (64times).

author: Fotom
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2023, 12:34:56 am
content: Good point. There are some amplifiers I want to check as well. NF signal at preout should be 470mV and above. Or am I wrong at that point?The audio signal coming out of my radio unit in my car should be around 6 V and above. That I will find out latest tomorrow... and that is something I want to check with the scope, too.The CAN signal is 2 - 4 V. All scopes should handle that without problem.When looking at the available scopes then at least I am doing things at the lower end of the lines and all of them in a range below 2000 Euro seems to be the "entry" stuff in different degrees. Would it be worth to spend 2000 Euro and more for me? I guess not.The special price offer for the MSO2302 is gone now. The DSO2202 is still available, but the latest I have seen is around 1070. Therefor I can get a MSO5074 or a DHO1074. Hm...I had no time today for a pre setup. Hope there will be within the next days.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2023, 09:06:47 am
content: Quote from: Fotom on August 30, 2023, 12:34:56 amFor proper looking into CAN and FlexRay SI you would need a differential probe. To get decent results on 10MBit FlexRay 200MHz+ diff probe is preferred. Same with the scope. 100MHz should work for cursory check, but 200MHz+ would be preferred.Make note that it is rise/fall time that is important, not actual frequency BW. Average 200MHz scope will have less than 1,8 ns risetime, and combined with 200 MHz probe (with similar risetime) will result in 2,5ns system risetime (they combine RMS) and that should be enough to measure 10 ns edges with cca. 3-4% error... 100MHz scope +100MHz probe (with 3ns risetimes estimated) would give cca. 8% errors..You would need to check both signals in a pair single endedanddifferentially to see if all is in spec.You also need triggering for those protocols if you plan to look for specific things, like errors or specific packets.Some scopes will also do eye diagrams and full characterization of SI on both protocols, but not in a price range we are discussing here.There are quite a few whitepapers and info on SI testing on these protocols on Internet. I suggest a bit of dive into it to get a feeling how deep the rabbit hole goes and then decide how deep you want to go..

author: Fotom
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2023, 05:33:24 pm
content: Thank you for that point of view. It seems that the "bigger" scopes are not only more expensive because of higher BW, but also the probes need to be different as well.That is maybe one reason to go for a >200MHz BW scope.

author: Fotom
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2023, 01:14:45 pm
content: Hello again,a lot happened but unfortunately some bad things as well, so I had to spend some time in the hospital with my son.But besides that I had an interesting visit in a technical section and was allowed to take a glance at several test- units, all equipped with all kind of scopes, power supplies, counter and frequency analyzing tools. Most impressive the Keysight 1GHz/ 5GSa/s scopes with, what, 15 or 17" TFTs? Several rack mounted stuff as well. That was "Wow"...At least I know now, that I want to have a signal generator as well. Any suggestions therefor?

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2023, 02:23:32 pm
content: Quote from: Fotom on September 09, 2023, 01:14:45 pmThe new Rigol DHO900 is arriving right now.

author: Fotom
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2023, 06:31:47 pm
content: DHO900 looks pretty well so far. Does it has a signal generator on board?

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2023, 06:43:49 pm
content: Yes, the "S" version:https://www.batronix.com/versand/oszilloskope/Rigol-DHO914S.html