And so the cancer continues to spread... - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: splin
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 13, 2018, 01:35:07 am
content: It's now time for the 'Master/Slave' nomenclature to be targetted to be purged from Engineering manuals, textbooks, associated literature, documents and electronic constructs including programs, databases etc:https://www.theregister.co.uk/2018/09/11/python_purges_master_and_slave_in_political_pogrom/You didn't really think your insensitive terminolgy would be overlooked any longer did you? Have you anything else to declare? Clearly 'Major/Minor' is no longer acceptable given the almost unlimited armies of minorities who can be aroused to arise and denounce those using their group identities in some perjorative manner.May God have mercy on your soul if you have ever used the term 'sub' in any of your documentation or programs with obvious negative connotations wrt other objects, merely due to some entirely abritary heirarchical relationship.And be very aware that there is no shortage of common usage that can be found to be offensive when ther easier targets have been assimilated/neutralized....

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 13, 2018, 01:48:26 am
content: That's nothing in programming you cankillthings!

author: @rt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 13, 2018, 01:48:41 am
content: Yes that would be offensive if it related to Humans rather than a relationship between devices that’s absolutely appropriate.The article is disappointing though, where illustrations could have included one chip with a gag on another, and chain leash with leather collar.

author: ajb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 13, 2018, 01:57:39 am
content: So an apparently polite request was made to replace words that make people uncomfortable with different words that are equally descriptive. That's cancer? Sounds like basic "being decent human beings" to me.I don't expect people outside of the US to get this--because so many people IN the US don't get it--but the legacy of the United States' "peculiar institution" is far from extinct. You may not think a couple of words are a big deal, and on their own, they're not, but it sits on top of a LOT of other ugliness in the US. Like, REALLY ugly stuff. And maybe even so, these words are really inconsequential.But you know what? If a minor change of vocabulary makes people feel better and costs me practically nothing, I'm happy to do it. It's basic decency as far as I'm concerned.The other terms you mention do not have any such a weight of ugly history attached to them, so no, I'm not worried them being "neutralized". They're nothing but straw to stuff this bogey man of social justice so many people like to freak out about for some reason.

author: BrianHG
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 13, 2018, 02:05:59 am
content: Next to die will be male and female. We will be stuck with something like plug and receptacle. Wait a minute, those 2 words also have multiple nuanced meanings...

author: TerraHertz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 13, 2018, 02:08:11 am
content: https://www.reddit.com/r/The_Donald/comments/8n3st9/its_a_epidemic/Fish mouth syndrome.I begin to laugh less and less at stuff like this. It really is a mental disorder, and it seems to be contagious via social media. Or perhaps it's the shots, who knows?

author: splin
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 13, 2018, 02:27:37 am
content: Quote from: ajb on September 13, 2018, 01:57:39 amAs I understand it the mafia are renowned for their 'polite requests'

author: TerraHertz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 13, 2018, 02:30:42 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on September 13, 2018, 02:12:43 amIt ISN'T a big deal in America. It's just that in the USA a small minority of extreme leftists have achieved a powerful platform via infiltration of media and education, from which they are pushing a specific social deconstruction program. Whether any given individual involved knows the origins or not is moot. Look up 'Critical Theory' and the Frankfurt School of cultural Marxism. (Best to check with non-Google search engines too.) Be prepared to wade through a lot of drek, disinformation and poorly done propaganda, both for and against. But you'll get the gist, and then it won't be 'beyond your understanding' any more.

author: maggotronix
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 13, 2018, 02:37:31 am
content: Quote from: TerraHertz on September 13, 2018, 02:30:42 amThis whole "left/right" thing has become ludicrous.

author: @rt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 13, 2018, 02:45:06 am
content: The US doesn’t own the concept of slavery, and no matter, it has a perfectly valid descriptive context here.Quote from: ajb on September 13, 2018, 01:57:39 am

author: rjp
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 13, 2018, 02:48:16 am
content: SPI better watch out.

author: @rt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 13, 2018, 02:54:39 am
content: I’d suggest “The thing that takes charge and commands the other thing” & “The thing that is subordinate, and takes orders from the other things”.TTTTCACTOT & TTTISATOFTOT for short, just to make it easier.That makes a whole lot more sense because it doesn’t relate to slavery at all

author: TerraHertz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 13, 2018, 03:03:34 am
content: Besides the words that remind of emotionally upsetting concepts, I suggest that the actual functional master-slave hardware relationship is highly offensive and must be eliminated.So USB for instance, is right out. So are all the interconnections between CPUs and peripheral chips. We're absolutely going to have to put a stop to these blatant and grossly insensitive references to the historical sins of the past.Strictly speaking the only culturally acceptable form of hardware negotiation, would be based on 'consensus voting.' In which a small group of devices with the loudest buffer source-sink capabilities, drown out any other devices regardless of who is actually a majority.(Sarcasm, just in case anyone didn't catch it.)Quote from: maggotronix on September 13, 2018, 02:37:31 amAbsolutely! The words have lost most of their meaning from overuse and drift. In some senses this is even deliberate, with the left-right paradigm deliberately molded by some into a false dichotomy used to obscure the actual opponent sets in today's political landscape. There are many such opposites. To name a few: Globalists vs nationalists, Bankers vs the people, Elites vs the people, Deep State vs the people, Corporatism vs the people, Centralist Control vs Individual Freedom, etc (not like I ran out of labels, just I can't say several others here.)What we think of as Leftists/SJWs are mostly just puppets of other groupings.Recently I met an actual dedicated Communist. It's an interesting belief set to explore, in similar sense to debugging some complex hardware system. How and why does it do that...?

author: ajb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 13, 2018, 03:30:41 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on September 13, 2018, 02:12:43 amOkay, here's a brief lesson in the fucked up history of my country to show why race continues to be such a big deal here:Until only 155 years ago, the chattel slavery of humans based on race was an institution in this country. It was enshrined in our constitution and it drove our economy. It was literally the law of the land that black people were the property of white people, who could sell them, torture them, rape them, do literally anything they wanted with no repercussions. At the height of slavery, there were about 4 million enslaved people in the US. In total it's estimated that over 12 million Africans were imported into North America (closer to 10 million survived the journey). Even after the emancipation proclamation in 1863, slavery didn't end, it simply moved under ground or hid under the guise of "convict leasing", which was often a flimsy pretense to simplykidnap and sell black people into slavery. Even though slavery was officially over,Jim Crow lawsenforced racial segregation and legally made people second class citizens because of their skin. Between 1882 and 1968, there are around 3500 documented cases of African Americans beinglynched--that is to say, murdered by white mobs. There are another 1300 documented cases of people of other ethnicity being lynched in the same period*.There's a popular idea that the civil rights movement of the late 1960s put an end to racial discrimination, but this is far from the truth. As late as 1972, the US government was conductingmedical experimentson African American men that involved deliberately infecting them with syphilis without their knowledge or consent and then withholding treatment.Redliningcontinued to keep people of color out of 'better' parts of town, and examples are still found to this day. The criminal justice system in the US is even nowdemonstrably racist**. People of color are prosecuted more often and and more harshly by a wide margin. Even through white people and African Americans use drugs at similar rates, but African Americans are imprisoned for drug offenses at six times the rate of white. In many cases people who are under judicial control (incarcerated or on probation/parole) lose their right to vote--sometimes for life. A criminal record is a huge impediment to getting a decent job. Combine those facts with the overall high rate of incarceration in the US, and the demonstrable racial disparity in our justice system, and we have systematically disenfranchised and impoverished a huge number of people of color. And to bring this full circle, in many places prisoners are compelled to work for essentially no compensation in harsh conditions that in many ways bear a striking resemblance to the plantations of the 1800s.So sure, many other places have had slavery. But I'm not sure that any have had an institution of slavery that was as horrific, or as vast, or as recent, or with such profound continued effects as that in the US.But you know what? Even without all of that, if someone says that something you do bothers them, and it costs youessentially nothingto stop doing it, why wouldn't you stop? Wouldn't doing something that costs you so little to make someone else's life a bit more pleasant be a no brainer? How little does making a change have to cost you beforenotdoing it makes you an asshole?_______________________________* The statistics are aggregated into "black" and "white" categories, but the latter includes many Mexican, Native American, and Chinese.** It's only one book, but it's comprehensive and hashundredsof citations, and there are plenty of other sources.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 13, 2018, 03:34:05 am
content: This came up about 10 years ago and then seems to have faded, I guess someone noticed it again?I'm decidedly left leaning and I still think this is absolutely absurd. In the context of engineering master and slave precisely describes the relationship. Electronic devices don't have feelings, the slave device(s) are under the complete control of the master device, what else are we supposed to call it? Changing the name of something doesn't change reality.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 13, 2018, 03:40:03 am
content: Quote from: ajb on September 13, 2018, 03:30:41 amWhat you said bothers me to some degree, it costs you essentially nothing to stop doing it, so why don't you stop? You don't care though do you, because what you said seems perfectly reasonable to you so my opinion doesn't matter does it? That should help you understand precisely how I feel on the master/slave terminology in regards to technology.It's a simple fact that virtually anything I say or do will upset *somebody* so why should I change based on the whims of whoever comes along? Can't please everybody.

author: splin
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 13, 2018, 03:53:54 am
content: Quote from: ajb on September 13, 2018, 01:57:39 amA minor change in *your* vocabulary isn't a problem - you're quite entitled to extend your vocabulary as much as you please. Just don't be dissapointed when the rest of the world have no idea what you are talkiing about. Because no one understands your new, subtly different language. A common languague is actually quite helpful.

author: ajb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 13, 2018, 04:05:37 am
content: Quote from: james_s on September 13, 2018, 03:40:03 amNo, I don't care about your false equivalency. If I was doing something that actually bothered you, especially if it brought up something horrific or traumatic I'd certainly care. In this case, I might say that I was sorry that detailing our (judging by your flag) country's reprehensible past made you uncomfortable, but that it was important for people to understand why this is as sensitive an issue as it is in the US. In that case there's an argument for a greater good to be made versus your claim of being bothered. I see no such argument for continuing to use master/slave if other adequately descriptive terms are available. Feel free to make one.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 13, 2018, 04:16:15 am
content: Quote from: ajb on September 13, 2018, 04:05:37 amIt does actually bother me, we have a perfectly accurate technical term that has been in use for many decades and you are implying that we all need to stop using that term for reasons that any rational person thinks are ridiculous. This is not an isolated incident either, I've been around long enough to see numerous technical/medical terms suddenly deemed offensive and changed to something else and that sort of rampant political correctness is offensive to me. George Carlin had a routine about euphemisms that summed up my thoughts pretty nicely. Calling it a false equivalency is just another way of condescendingly telling me my opinion on the matter is irrelevant and your opinion is more valuable than mine.Master/Slave in the context of technology has *nothing* to do with slavery and I will continue to use these terms because they are well understood, industry standard technical terms that mean precisely what one would expect by the dictionary definition of the words.

author: ajb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 13, 2018, 04:33:08 am
content: Quote from: james_s on September 13, 2018, 04:16:15 amOkay, so your perspective is not so different from mine. You don't want to stop using master/slave because, in spite of the fact that other people have said it has unpleasant associations that they'd rather excise from the software engineering context, it's more important that you not have to change your terminology for whatever reason, right? You're absolutely entitled to make that value judgement. Just like I'm entitled to make the value judgement that your expressed concern over "rampant political correctness" is less important than understanding and accounting for the way that (even seemingly innocuous) language affects other people, especially people who have been subjected to systemic mistreatment as my previous post outlined.You're perfectly free to keep using whatever terminology you want, even if I or anyone else questions your attachment to it. Honestly, I'm skeptical that all that many people are that bothered by the master/slave thing in context, but I'm equally or perhaps more skeptical that it would be so difficult to replace those terms without losing clarity in most cases.

author: BrianHG
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 13, 2018, 04:34:10 am
content: Quote from: ajb on September 13, 2018, 03:30:41 amAre you saying the offended here is an engineer, or, a non-engineer who has no technical knowledge of the technical term and how it describes the devices or code functions. Just because the terms appear English, they don't necessarily mean the same thing. Even in mathematics, there are English terms which do not co-inside with everyday English.Also, it is not free for me to redo all my schematics and source code and verify no bugs were introduced in the updating. This can add up to some expensive serious engineering hours and in the case of life monitoring/sustaining hardware/software, re-approvals may be involved as well as someone's life hooked up to the hardware in the field, perhaps one of those offended non-engineers. New revision schematic will not match old PCBs in the field for those diagnosing a problem.'Did someone just delete 2 posts in this thread?'

author: Stray Electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 13, 2018, 04:40:25 am
content: Quote from: ajb on September 13, 2018, 01:57:39 amAs a citizen and resident of I'm tired of making "minor" changes to "accommodate" a bunch of cry babies that are "uncomfortable" with everything in life. Grow up and Deal with it!

author: Stray Electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 13, 2018, 04:45:32 am
content: Quote from: james_s on September 13, 2018, 03:40:03 amYet YOU are demanding that other people give up using words that make you "uncomfortable".

author: Stray Electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 13, 2018, 04:48:48 am
content: Quote from: ajb on September 13, 2018, 04:05:37 am"false equivalency"? Is that the newest leftist term to describe what they are demanding everyone else to do but aren't willing to do themselves?

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 13, 2018, 05:37:40 am
content: Quote from: Stray Electron on September 13, 2018, 04:40:25 amIt is their lifestyle. You make a concession they move to the next thing.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 13, 2018, 05:50:32 am
content: Quote from: Stray Electron on September 13, 2018, 04:45:32 amHuh? What words am I demanding people give up? Use whatever words you want, I don't care, just don't expect me to change my vocabulary. Perhaps you're confusing my response with the post I was responding to?

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 13, 2018, 06:01:01 am
content: Quote from: ajb on September 13, 2018, 04:33:08 amIf somebody is bothered by the concept of calling an inanimate object the master that is in control of another inanimate object called the slave then I have to assume they have solved all the problems worth solving and are grasping at straws looking for another problem to solve. If it's not one thing it's something else, some people seem to feel a necessity to be offended or outraged over something.Perhaps you just haven't been around long enough to see the cycle repeat itself over and over.Word is commonly used -> Somebody decides word is offensive, replaces it with a new politically correct word -> Somebody decides new word is offensive, replaces it with a new politically correct word -> wash, rinse, repeat.The problem is that the word was never the problem in the first place, it was the message the word was used to convey. Changing the word doesn't fix anything. No matter what you change it to, somebody somewhere will be offended, so trying to appease everyone who gets offended is a fool's errand. I'm really not sure where this attitude that everyone should bend over backwards to appease everyone who gets bent out of shape about every little thing came from. It seems it was around my whole life and has really spread in the last 20 years or so.

author: abraxa
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 13, 2018, 06:24:31 am
content: Quote from: rjp on September 13, 2018, 02:48:16 amPersonally, I would find it perfectly acceptable to use active/passive instead of master/slave in this context. It's still clear what is meant.Quote from: james_s on September 13, 2018, 06:01:01 amIndeed, people with too much time will do things like that. Here in Germany, we have retired folks in villages look out the window all day to see who goes by, who they're with and what they do. Just to gossip and ridicule people. It's what happens to people with too much spare time - they start looking for a purpose in life, and virtually *anything* can become a purpose in itself. It was assumed that with the industrial revolution and increased spare time, we'd see an increase in arts, philosophy and related fields where jobs don't pay well. I'm not sure it turned out quite that way.

author: Beamin
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 13, 2018, 06:34:24 am
content: Quote from: splin on September 13, 2018, 01:35:07 amSome people like the master/slave dom/sub relationships.They should call it male for master and female for slave, that would piss off the feminists. Maybe we could color them pink and blue.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 13, 2018, 07:16:09 am
content: Quote from: @rt on September 13, 2018, 01:48:41 amI had this at work, a sales manager objected to my master/slave air conditioning unitsOne unit that was the smaller one had the ECU in it for both units. I don't think main and secondary really conveyed the meaning properly.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 13, 2018, 07:23:56 am
content: Quote from: BrianHG on September 13, 2018, 02:05:59 amIt is already here. In the military connector world it is a nightmare where female pins are called socket pins when they can go into a plug or receptacle. so it's "pin" or "socket pin" it's nuts. I spoke to a female technical rep at one of the biggest worldwide suppliers of mil connectors and she used the male/female terminology voluntarily. I really don't see the issue, we use the knowledge of basic human anatomy to describe a physical component that closely resembles the anatomy. There is nothing offensive about it. Plug and socket or receptacle then make sense and there can be lots of confusion with what male / female refers to, the connector body or the pins.I do have to point out though that it should always be the female pins that deliver power when designing harnesses.

author: SparkyFX
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 13, 2018, 08:03:09 am
content: Well, the linked article mentions that this problem has been answered in a polite way by the python maintainers, not that they just complied.Quote from: ajb on September 13, 2018, 01:57:39 amCalling a movement that tries to argue with the meta a cancer is not what i´d agree on.When talking about devices/machines? It means feeling insulted/uncomfortable when a technical system is described using a vocabulary - in the actual sense of it. There are hardly matching alternatives other than creating new terms in this small niche. Giving machines or objects related human attributes is nothing new as well.I assume they thought well about changing it, but does the client now need to sue the server for misconduct in case of a problem or will the technical system be unlawfully designed otherwise? This an example of how this approach can be driven endless, by reverse-asserting human rights to machines by feeling uncomfortable. All one needs to do is baselessly feeling insulted on behalf of someone/something else and taking decisions opportunistically.It is nothing short of using imaginery terms. There might be cases in which this is helpful and works, but not if the imaginery term is the only base to work from.QuoteI am mostly indifferent about it, because the language/culture barrier stripped the meaning off for me while learning the technical meaning. But trying to establish exclusiveness over context means single handedly trying to dictate (language, behavior of others, meaning). I´ve got no doubt that it might be emotionally challenging when this use of language is overdone and of course things can be abused in every way shape or form, but plenty of examples existed for feudalism all over the world, so the knowledge about what slavery is and means is rooted deep in most cultures. Limiting/changing the vocabulary for inanimate objects does not get rid of the concept - neither actual slavery that exists to this day. I mean i´d get pissed if someone tried to assert such terms to me or anyone else. Actually someone once did, but that was a clown without any integrity whatsoever, got the proper complaints in return.As always, it is the concept that needs to be discussed and emancipated about, not the list of taboo words, because taboo words can be worked around in a matter of seconds, as much as the concept can be described in other words. E.g. labor at zero hourly rate with keep included, plus onesided abandonment of various rights, anyone?

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 13, 2018, 08:07:46 am
content: Quote from: Bud on September 13, 2018, 05:37:40 amYep exactly this.Don't give an inch !One of my pet peeves is 'chair person' or 'chairwoman'.ChairmanIS gender neutral just like pilot.

author: JPortici
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 13, 2018, 09:06:54 am
content: Quote from: ajb on September 13, 2018, 03:30:41 ami would cost THEM essentially nothing understanding that words have different meanings in different contexts.

author: @rt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 13, 2018, 09:35:45 am
content: Or exactly the same meaning, but in an acceptable context.

author: rjp
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 13, 2018, 09:42:35 am
content: one thing i always wonder with these issues is how much is actual ex slave heritage people getting upset versus people getting upset on their behalf for imagined slights.

author: chris_leyson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 13, 2018, 09:55:28 am
content: I must admit I felt a little uncomfortable about the whole master/slave description of how a flip flop works but that was nearly 50 years ago and I just accepted it for what it was, a description of a flip flop. Sometime in the late 70's I was told not to use the words enable and disable as part of a signal description, I didn't say anything but in my head I was thinking

author: edy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 13, 2018, 12:47:22 pm
content: Maybe use the term parent/child... Who will that upset? (Sweatshop workers)Or just invent new words that have never been used so as not to conjure previously associated images or biases, or just use binary: 1111/0000.

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 13, 2018, 01:21:03 pm
content: Quote from: edy on September 13, 2018, 12:47:22 pmhusband / wife ?Oh no wait ... wrong direction

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 13, 2018, 01:25:29 pm
content: Quote from: xrunner on September 13, 2018, 01:21:03 pmMother / daughter ..............and so it goes on.Where on earth could it possibly end ?

author: DC1MC
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 13, 2018, 02:17:11 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on September 13, 2018, 01:25:29 pmIt will never end, the professional victims and salaried oppressed doesn't want to become jobless, I predict that white and black chess squares and pieces will follow, next is "the situation isn't that black and white" and so on...PC and SJW are the cancer of a society and extremely useful idiots.

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 13, 2018, 02:40:20 pm
content: Quote from: DC1MC on September 13, 2018, 02:17:11 pmWhat about chess?The Queen has the most power, that's really offensive to men I would think. They should be equal!

author: peteb2
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 13, 2018, 02:43:07 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on September 13, 2018, 08:07:46 amI expect plug & socket which came into use to replace the more obvious male & female descriptors for pin types of connectors to be attacked by the Gender Neutral SLW movement. The Agenda being to remove all forms of difference & priveledged in-equality between actual human men and woman. This even goes beyond the LGBT community issue...Our Universities offer costs covered for an individual to change their given names by Deedpol... so that they can be made acceptably Gender Neutral.I just wonder if all this kind of stupid thinking will in the end hinder the crap out of human development or at least simply only lead to holding up technological development break throughs as certain individuals are (cliche) ‘triggered’ and have to constantly run to their ‘safe space’....

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 13, 2018, 02:57:41 pm
content: Someone posted this on twitter regarding this, and I just had to share, it's gold

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 13, 2018, 02:59:26 pm
content: I don't want to video spam, but it's my response to this summed up:

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 13, 2018, 03:05:40 pm
content: Quote from: ajb on September 13, 2018, 01:57:39 amYou may not think that a polite request to change a few words is a big deal, and on it's own, it's not, but it sits on top of a LOT of other ugliness in the current world. Like, REALLY ugly stuff.

author: HwAoRrDk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 13, 2018, 04:10:03 pm
content: Quote from: rjp on September 13, 2018, 02:48:16 amToo late.There are many SPI parts out there that in their datasheets do not use the MOSI/MISO nomenclature - they use DI/DO.

author: edy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 13, 2018, 04:29:52 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on September 13, 2018, 02:57:41 pmYou should post a warning, I watched that video in my office and busted my guts laughing... very embarassing! Got lots of strange looks. Yes it is gold indeed! Thanks for sharing!

author: SparkyFX
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 14, 2018, 01:57:39 am
content: I see SJW actionism as this: if there is no actual contribution, one can still critize the form to receive attention.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 14, 2018, 03:05:51 am
content: Quote from: tautech on September 13, 2018, 08:07:46 amThat annoys me too. I suppose someone is trying to change "woman" to "woperson"?

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 14, 2018, 03:45:32 am
content: Quote from: james_s on September 14, 2018, 03:05:51 amIt's easy to address in a public meeting with:My usage notes:Mr Chairman or...........correctly for a woman chairman;Madame ChairmanWatch heads turn !Nounchairman (plural chairmen)A person (usually but not always a man) presiding over a meeting.The head of a corporate or governmental board of directors, a committee, or other formal entity.(historical) Someone whose job is to carry people in a portable chair, sedan chair, or similar conveyance.Verbchairman (third-person singular simple present chairmans, present participle chairmanning, simple past and past participle chairmanned)To serve as chairman.Usage notesHistorically meant a man, now also used for women.Source:https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/chairman

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 14, 2018, 03:51:25 am
content: What about Human? Do we have to change it to "huperson" or "huwoman"?

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 14, 2018, 03:58:14 am
content: Quote from: james_s on September 14, 2018, 03:51:25 amSapient entity.

author: BrianHG
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 14, 2018, 04:04:46 am
content: Quote from: tautech on September 14, 2018, 03:45:32 amThanks, I like that one.

author: VK5RC
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 14, 2018, 05:10:19 am
content: The problem is there is always a 'position' in any system that is less 'desireable' eg 'slave' or in my area 'an impairment'.Even if you change the term, to 'disability' as it was initially then to 'handicap', people aren't stupid and soon realise what the new term is and the social or whatever stigma will attach rapidly to the 'new term'. Nothing changes." We trained hard—but it seemed that every time we were beginning to form up into teams we were reorganized. I was to learn later in life that we tend to meet any new situation by reorganizing, and what a wonderful method it can be for creating the illusion of progress while actually producing confusion, inefficiency, and demoralization."Petronius Arbiter c40AD

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 14, 2018, 05:21:22 am
content: Quote from: BrianHG on September 14, 2018, 04:04:46 amDon't just like.....it's perfectly and quite correct !

author: newbrain
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 14, 2018, 05:53:18 am
content: Quote from: james_s on September 14, 2018, 03:51:25 amAny decent dictionary will explain why that would be just silly.But you aren't serious, are you?

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 14, 2018, 06:08:14 am
content: Quote from: newbrain on September 14, 2018, 05:53:18 amI think we are starting to be as crazy as the people we are criticizing now.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 14, 2018, 04:29:27 pm
content: Quote from: newbrain on September 14, 2018, 05:53:18 amDo I really need to explicitly indicate when I'm being tongue in cheek? Perhaps I was foolish in assuming it was obvious.

author: newbrain
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 14, 2018, 05:32:37 pm
content: That's a relief, unfortunately on these topics my sarcasmeter is defective.I get false negatives and false positives aplenty.A long time ago (might be 15 years?) we had 'father' and 'son', for two oscillators with different characteristics on a board.I had suggested parent and child to be more gender neutral, but it did not fly.

author: bsfeechannel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 15, 2018, 02:00:05 am
content: The origin of the word slave is the Byzantine Greek wordsklabos, which means Slav. Slavs should be the claimants in this case.

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 15, 2018, 02:10:54 am
content: Quote from: james_s on September 13, 2018, 06:01:01 amOne finds that going out and actively doing something to change what's wrong in the world is hard, but moaning about what words people use is easy. So, the class of people that we're talking about do the later and gain a little moral smugness from it while nothing substantive changes. Going out and actually solving real social injustices, problems caused by prejudice etc. etc. would be way too much like real work. Most of the folks who go around making these kinds of fuss are white, come from relatively privileged, relatively wealthy backgrounds and have never involuntarily missed a meal in their lives or involuntarily gone a single night without shelter, nor ever been on the receiving end of anything more socially pointed than having their country club application declined.As james_s implies, let them go and fix a real problem or two, and when they come back we'll listen to their plans for a new Bowdlerized dictionary.

author: sokoloff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 15, 2018, 02:12:30 am
content: Quote from: james_s on September 14, 2018, 03:05:51 amBased on local interactions, I know that the preferred spelling for many feminists is "womyn" to avoid using the -man/-men portion of the word.For the record, and at the risk of being labeled a cancer victim on the board, while I agree that pilot is fully gender neutral, I don't agree that chairman is.

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 15, 2018, 02:14:32 am
content: Quote from: Simon on September 13, 2018, 07:23:56 amSimon points out "human anatomy" as the underpinning of 'male' and 'female' connector nomenclature. Nope,mammaliananatomy, not just one mere species of mammals. As it is, 'male' and 'female' isn't really precise enough, it could refer to relative size - most mammals have larger males, it could refer to all sorts of sexually dimorphic characteristics of mammals. If only there were some short, pithy, Anglo-Saxon words purely descriptive of the mammalian organs most resembling connector gender that that everybody knows that we could use that would remove all the ambiguity. That surely wouldn't cause any offence.

author: sokoloff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 15, 2018, 02:16:12 am
content: Quote from: bsfeechannel on September 15, 2018, 02:00:05 amThis post on the python discussion thread cracked me up.https://bugs.python.org/msg324816Quote

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 15, 2018, 02:40:50 am
content: Quote from: sokoloff on September 15, 2018, 02:12:30 amWell then I ask, what is thecorrectway to address 'the person in the chair' ?If you've spent any significant time in formal meetings and I have plenty, it's Mr or Madame Chairman !To portray or argue differently is indeed indicating you are another cancer victim.Sorry to now be aware of your truly sad and misguided affliction.May your end come speedily and without pain.

author: sokoloff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 15, 2018, 02:45:00 am
content: I would use "Chair" or "Chairwoman" if the person in question was female.

author: MK14
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 15, 2018, 02:53:48 am
content: In the electronics world, we just need to rename a few things. Let me start:TransistorSister = Female, unfair to males.New Name =Transibling(no gender bias)SCR (Silicon Controlled Rectifier)Since "Control" has bad/terrible conotations, going back to early Master/Slave/Control daysNew Name =SAR (Silicon Advised Rectifier)(no Master/Slave/Control bias)Dumb TerminalIt is being very rude to people of reduced intelligence, so not politically correct.New Name =Slightly Disabled/Handicapped TerminalSM (Surface Mount)It is too sexually orientated (S&M), so SM has to be renamed.New Name:OTOPMC (On Top Of PCB Mounted Components)

author: bsfeechannel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 15, 2018, 03:07:06 am
content: Quote from: sokoloff on September 15, 2018, 02:16:12 amhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NewspeakNewspeak is a controlled language, of restricted grammar and limited vocabulary, meant to limit the freedom of thought—personal identity, self-expression, free will—that ideologically threatens the régime of Big Brother and the Party, who thus criminalized such concepts as thoughtcrime, contradictions of Ingsoc orthodoxy.

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 15, 2018, 03:10:56 am
content: Quote from: MK14 on September 15, 2018, 02:53:48 amdopingAccusatory to those of lesser intelligence - i.e. dope or dumb.New Name =conductivity enablingOne ShotBad reference to gun shots.New Name =Single pulse

author: bsfeechannel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 15, 2018, 03:23:30 am
content: Quote from: MK14 on September 15, 2018, 02:53:48 amCognitively Impaired Terminal.

author: AlfBaz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 15, 2018, 03:26:28 am
content: Quote from: sokoloff on September 15, 2018, 02:45:00 amSomebody somewhere will be outraged at "Chair" as they are for sitting on

author: richnormand
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 15, 2018, 04:00:46 am
content: Wait until they find out about daughter products in nuclear decay and isotopes....

author: Sceptre
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 15, 2018, 04:02:59 am
content: Quote from: Simon on September 13, 2018, 07:23:56 amNot for Micro-D or Nano connectors - the male pins are shrouded and the female sockets are exposed (just the opposite of D-Subs).

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 15, 2018, 04:07:40 am
content: Liberman and Zukerman will have to change their last names.

author: ricktendo
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 15, 2018, 04:41:51 am
content: Thanks Obama!

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 15, 2018, 05:01:52 am
content: So I guess this one is definitely out.......

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 15, 2018, 07:46:59 am
content: Quote from: Cerebus on September 15, 2018, 02:10:54 amWholeheartedly agree. I see so many movements and initiatives to solve a particular part of a larger problem. Usually this is the feminist movement who's solution to everything is to hate men and expect special treatment. For some reason the knee jerk reaction to every social problem is positive discrimination to redress the balance. Instead the actual problem needs addressing having identified the root causes. I have this problem in engineering at work a lot where the original problem is lost sight of and increasingly patched solutions get applied until we have a monstrosity instead of just looking at the original problem and solving it.The solution to most things that get solved with positive discrimination is to just treat each other with respect and not use prejudice in our lives.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 15, 2018, 08:19:48 am
content: Each country have their own different groups.US is not only black vs white but also Irish vs Italian vs Polish vs Mexican vs Asian etc. etc.As an outsider the social picking order seems to be based on which groups arrived first in the country, so I still wonder why the Indians are not the most respected and wealthiest group being the firstA professor of social psychology here just stated that "groupthinking" and excluding other groups is part of the human inhericy from evolution just as craving for sugar and fat foods is.There is no easy solution and most solutions that are artificial dont solve anything.In contrary it seems to me that these PC discussions and rules do only make it worse since again it differentiates between groups. But that is my opinion.

author: vodka
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 15, 2018, 05:27:18 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on September 15, 2018, 07:46:59 amIf you begin to investigate that the 90% of the leaders of the "JusticeWarriors"(best term is "Perroflautas") have NEVER suffered a social and economical discrimination situations.The vast majority comes the rich families, have studied at the best schools from their country or from the world.And as they are more unusefull than the politicals, they have to do associations and groups with the marginals for using like cannon folder versus the actual sytems .Here , we have a case autochthonous more international. Anna Gabriel,anticapitalist , feminist , independist and a great and brave patriot.She has been imputed by disobedience crime for the facts of September to October of the 2017(max penalty: 2 years without working in the Goverment).Before appearing in the court, that brave run away. By logical, a person with communist ideologic would have to go to socialist country like Venezuela or Cuba.So not, she went to Switzerland, the country more socialist and anticapitalist of the world.Left photo,before running away and right photo staying in Switzerland..Now i will show an another "justices warrior" terribly discriminated.First Right photo: Mar Ampurdanès , lawyer student and Arran spokeman's enjoy to strike touristic bus. Her father is an important pharmaceutical executive in BarcelonaCelia Appel: College student, enjoy to do scraches versus spanish exjudges as Baltasar Garzon. She suffered terriby, studing in the Copenhagen International School where each course cost 15,716€-22,163€

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 15, 2018, 05:34:05 pm
content: Quote from: vodka on September 15, 2018, 05:27:18 pmIts both sad and hilarious to watch a wealthy privileged person complaining about how their servants are oppressing them.

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 15, 2018, 05:43:21 pm
content: But this is a easy way to get into politics and political leadership, isnt it

author: mmagin
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 15, 2018, 07:46:40 pm
content: So, I'm a white guy, I work in computer software, I've been doing electronics stuff in my free time for decades. I once felt quite defensive about changes like this, but as time goes on, I've come to realize that while changing things like this isn't completely without cost, technology is a thing that real people, with real feelings work on, and there's hardly ever positive value in driving people away that might feel differently than you, out of a stubborn resistance to change.Both this and the "gender politics has now infected ..." threads are pretty damned cringe-worthy. Let me enumerate some of the ways:The "if you don't have a thick skin you shouldn't be in engineering" attitude. Let's judge people on how well they do the actual work, not how well they deal with terminology that reminds them on how badly we shit on their ancestors."I feel <x> about <issue>, clearly nobody feels differently, they're just making this up for attention."Instantly conflating any suggestion of more diversity/inclusiveness with "and next they're going to take away ..." This is a poor debating tactic and it muddles unrelated issues. Also, just because you once were inconvenienced by such a thing doesn't automatically make you a victim of some horrible Stalinistic purge. Grow up and quit your crying.Complete ignorance of the aspects in which say, "master/slave" is a technically poor choice of terminology. You have a warm-standby relationship between two database servers? It is generally the "master" doing all the work and the "slave" mirroring its state. How this resembles human masters telling human slaves which physical labor to do, I don't see. A lot of proposed replacements like primary/replica, leader/follower, etc. are more accurate.Nebulously defined terminology like "political correctness" or "SJW""Look, I have this example of (a person who wants more diversity/inclusion) behaving badly!" Also a poor debating tactic. Shall we judge everyone by the most ridiculous examples of a group they can be categorized in?

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 15, 2018, 08:05:07 pm
content: Quote from: mmagin on September 15, 2018, 07:46:40 pmBut consider this, it's not completely without cost and it could also be argued that it is completely without merit, because changing the words doesn't really change anything, the problem is still there, it's just called something else. We changed the word "retarded" to "handicapped" then "disabled" then I've heard things like "specially abled" and numerous other euphemisms but as any rational person ought to have predicted, the stigma associated with the old words quickly followed to the new words. "Midget" and "Dwarf" have been replaced by "little people" which I personally think sounds extremely condescending and cringe-worthy but whatever. There are countless other examples of this sort of thing and in every case the end result is that nothing has changed, except for maybe the fact that we have a bunch of new insults that formerly were acceptable descriptive terms.Now I would agree that this involves real people with real feelings and there is hardly ever a positive value in driving people away who might feel differently, but I would expand this to include a stubborn insistence on change. I'm decidedly left leaning on most things but I do find rampant political correctness to be somewhat offensive and it seems many have few concerns with driving people like me away over a difference of opinion. I see a common theme amongst the "sjw" crowd of simply dismissing *my* opinion as being "wrong", invalid or somehow irrelevant without so much as hearing my thoughts on the matter without interrupting, engaging in the very activity they claim to be fighting against. I think it was George Carlin who called political correctness "fascism disguised as manners."Personally I'd rather focus on technology rather than quibbling over what words to use, and I'm not interested in wasting time every few years inventing new words for things because somebody somewhere has decided the existing words are offensive.

author: mmagin
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 15, 2018, 08:22:15 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on September 15, 2018, 08:05:07 pmIt is true that avoiding the use of master/slave terminology for various aspects of software does not solve the real problem of slavery (which still exists in some places in the world!)However, it does not necessarily follow that any language, no matter what the past or present associations of it are appropriate in a professional environment. You are correct that changing the terms used to describepeoplewith a particular disability does not remove the stigma from this set of people. This however is different. This is about terminology used to describe inanimate things that have no feelings -- but terminology which may affect the feelings of people who work with those things every day. I do not think any one advocating for a change like this is suggesting it will solve slavery. Rather they are suggesting that it may perhaps make some people more comfortable working with Python to not be reminded of slavery in the course of their everyday programming activities.And before, anyone says to such people "oh, get over it, sure your ancestors were slaves, but that's no big deal now!", let's not forget that many of these people have experienced generations of negative social and economic results from that situation and the ensuing discrimination.QuoteFor sure, some of the people complaining the loudest about these things are neither the kindest or most tactful. However knee-jerk responses on the part of those of us who have had it good as a result of an accident of birth is not very mature either.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 15, 2018, 08:40:13 pm
content: I don't see the problem with words that are descriptive of an engineering device. the term master/slave does not mean the user agrees with human slavery. In an ideal world the only use of the master/slave scenario is to technological concepts.I was recently at a meeting with police and a lot of indian people. One item on the agenda was the theft of gold from indian homes. They became known as the indian gold roberies. The terminology was objected to by the indians in singling them out so it was agreed to just call them gold thefts. Next the indian representatives went on to ask the police about where they were searching for the gold and had they checked the gold buyers etc because this gold being indian was of a particular style so easy to pick out from other jewelry, at which point I thought so why object so much to it being called indian gold? all of the thefts are from indian people and the jewelry in question is markedly different from any other as they themselves point out!!!!!If you can't talk descriptively about something how the hell will anyone know what you are on about?

author: tpowell1830
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 15, 2018, 08:57:54 pm
content: Quote from: mmagin on September 15, 2018, 07:46:40 pmLet me put it this way, I am not going to throw away a vocabulary that I have used for many decades regarding technical terms because someone who thinks that someone else might be offended by the use of it. This is the SJW tactic that if you use these words or say these things that you are a racist, a homophobe or a fascist. The milder of these accusations are that it is insensitive to use a certain term.I am not the one who came up with the terms, but I am also not the one who is going to change the vocabulary either. As technical people, in order to shorten our limited time in conversations, we come up with terms that everyone will immediately know the meanings of because it is common terms that have made it through the test of time. It makes our conversations concise and to the point. Let's face it, in our jobs, there is little time to stand around discussing the social aspects of our vocabulary.Just because someone thinks that terms are not "politically correct" doesn't mean that you can tell others that they are bad and can't use those terms. Free speech means that you can say whatever you want without causing physical harm to others, it does not mean that you can't say mean or disagreeable things. If we let others dictate to us what we can and can't say, there will be no end to the continuum of vocabulary words that 'might' offend or hurt someones feelings. The only way to communicate is with the vocabulary we know and by shouting people down because they said a word or phrase that is not the accepted (by whom?) phrase, then communications will shut down and soon we are at each others throat.My final thoughts are that if you want a meaningful dialogue with someone, there is no way that correcting their vocabulary is a useful platform in which to start. We are all individuals with unique thought patterns and ideas and will never agree on ideologies, so let's begin by trying to understand one another and listen to real ideas without jumping into the kneejerk reaction that someone used a word or phrase that maybe someone else might be offended. In normal everyday conversation, we just want to be heard and understood. There is no need for the thought police to jump in and start correcting us for words or thoughts that could be interpretted as hurtful to 'someone'.If I am insensitive to a group or individual in my conversation, I have the right to do so, this is called freedom of speech. If we allow others to dictate to us what we can and can't say, we no longer have free speech. I am sensitive to the rights of others as much as I can be in my speech, but I can't get into anyone elses mind and figure out what words may offend them.RANT OVER