Why Do Hobbyists Purchase The Most Expensive Handheld DMMs - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / beginners

author: alligatorblues
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2023, 04:26:39 am
content: The world is filled with DMMs. There are two major kinds of DMMs: chip DMMs and microprocessor DMMs. Chip DMMs are built around an IC that, with some external passives, performs the functions of a DMM. Calibration is done using trim pots connected to the DMM IC. These sell for $3-$150USD, and many times have display resolutions far beyond their specified accuracy. The last 4 digits are just meaningless.Chip DMMs have grave limitations in accuracy, drift, features, durability and reliability. So, we're left with microprocessor DMMs. These perform largely dependent on firmware. They contain a precision voltage reference to compare their calibration constants to; calibration constants stored in non-volitile memory.When the meter makes a measurement, it refers to its calibration constants, compares them to the voltage reference, and using firmware to interpolate says, "When these calibration constants were made, during my calibration, I received a signal, and it was equal to 1/2 of the voltage standard output."Now I'm receiving a signal that has a mathematical relationship to the calibration constants' relationship to the voltage standard. So, as I determine the correct value for the new and unknown input signal, I will iteratively convert it to a number to display as its value.This method linearizes the meter, so if it knows one value on the 10VDC scale, it can determine the value of other signals on that scale, because there is a predictable mathematical relationship between the known value and every other possible value on the 10VDC scale, which is the slope; y=mx+b; if we have a line on a graph, every point on the line will fit the equation y=mx+b, where m and b are always the same numbers.There are some discreet functions which are offloaded from the primary mcu to other ICs with more narrow but faster capabilities, such as Trms. At this point DMMs vary greatly in price. I am a professional, so I have certain needs and expectations I insist upon.I want to purchase a meter once. I don't expect it will ever fail. I expect top performance, durability, reliability, tech support, long life cycles, top-notch quality control, feature-packed, intelligent design, and safe operation. That is why i insist on Fluke handheld DMMs!There is simply nothing else that even comes close for features, reliability and durability.

author: Solder_Junkie
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2023, 05:53:21 am
content: There are two kinds of hand held multimeters, those that are safe to use and those that can blow up in your hands.See this YouTube video to see why this retired professional user has a Fluke on the shelf. The interesting part is 5 mins into the video.https://youtu.be/OEoazQ1zuUM?feature=sharedThe USA made Fluke hand held multimeters come with a lifetime warranty too.SJ

author: MikeK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2023, 12:47:39 pm
content: Quote from: Solder_Junkie on September 21, 2023, 05:53:21 amI would take no advice from that obvious amateur. There are actual skilled professionals on the web; he's not one of them.

author: CaptDon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2023, 01:03:22 pm
content: Sounds like a ChatGPT written advertisement for Fluke!!!

author: tridac
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2023, 01:20:29 pm
content: Everything i've touched from Fluke has always exceeded spec, so would be my first choice. Only just recently retired an ancient 8021B, after decades of use on the bench. Dropped once too often and broke the thick film tag bondings. Why look elsewhere ?...

author: RoGeorge
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2023, 01:44:15 pm
content: In case this thread is an astroturfing attempt, I would like to say to the marketing team that I prefer classic style ads:

author: JustMeHere
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2023, 02:02:08 pm
content: Quote from: CaptDon on September 21, 2023, 01:03:22 pmYeah. This is an ad. ASIC can do the same job as something running software. Probably even better.

author: AndyBeez
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2023, 02:26:56 pm
content: I prefer this meter. It never flukes and always gives the correct reading regardless of theACAI input source >

author: mwb1100
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2023, 03:28:01 pm
content: Quote from: alligatorblues on September 21, 2023, 04:26:39 amMe too. Unfortunately I have some sort of personality disorder that compels me to buy one every few months.I blame Dave.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2023, 04:16:38 pm
content: Quote from: alligatorblues on September 21, 2023, 04:26:39 amIs this an advert? Why did you post this? Are you a bot?

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2023, 04:27:58 pm
content: My Fluke 27 uses an ASIC and trimpots, no software cal. It must be one of those dreaded "Chip DMMs". If the last 4 digits are unreliable it isn't much use as it only has 3200 counts.Seriously, I have Flukes as well, but they aren't the only non-junk meter out there. You can buy (at least in the US) a perfectly reasonable meter for $50 if you can accept that it won't pretend to have a high-end feature set. ASIC-based meters have had closed-case calibration for some time.https://www.flir.com/products/dm64/?vertical=condition+monitoring&segment=solutionshttps://www.amazon.com/Multimeter-Auto-Ranging-Klein-Tools-MM400/dp/B018EXZO8M?th=1

author: schmitt trigger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2023, 04:55:16 pm
content: Quote from: mwb1100 on September 21, 2023, 03:28:01 pmGood for you! You have completed the first of the twelve steps:I admit that I am powerless over DMMs—that my life has become unmanageable as a result.Only 11 more steps to go.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2023, 05:07:48 pm
content: DMMs are too narrow in scope.Not only do you need an LCR meter to measure L, C and ESR, you also need to measure sound intensity, light intensity, air speed, humidity, and a multitude of other things. There are more interesting things to get than more DMMs.

author: Terry Bites
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2023, 05:24:15 pm
content: Do they? I'd like to see the stats.

author: Veteran68
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2023, 05:42:50 pm
content: Yeah, this reeks of a generative AI advert.Quote from: mwb1100 on September 21, 2023, 03:28:01 pmI feel attacked.*cough*But seriously, Fluke makes great meters, no doubt. I own a few that I'm quite fond of. However Fluke DOES NOT make the best meters for every use case. And some of those whiz bang features that Fluke doesn't include (because not their target market) are actually useful to some people. It's also been clearly proven that Fluke does not make the most robust meters, and that you can buy well equipped meters at a fraction of Fluke's cost that will survive transients that kill Flukes.I'd say no serious hobbyist (much less pro) should limit themselves to a single DMM. Have two at the very least, ideally different meters optimized for different needs (e.g. bench vs handheld, electrical vs electronics, HVAC vs electrical, etc.) with enough overlap in features to use them both simultaneous when needed (such as measuring current+voltage at same time) while also having enough specialization to be useful for those advanced or edge cases where things like greater precision, speed, range, etc. are needed. Ideally, take this a step further and have some cheap disposable meters that you don't mind sacrificng to harsher uses, like when tossed in the glove box, trunk, or tool box, a cluttered kitchen drawer, on a shelf in the garage, etc.I recently bought three (3) of BigClive's trashy Duratool D03047 DT830 based meters because they were $7 each andbuilt much better than most cheap DT830's(looking at you, HF). These are perfect for tossing into convenient nooks and crannies where a quick measurement might be needed. Then I don't have to go down to the basement lab, grab one of my "good" meters, and risk it getting greasy or scratched, or blown up due to brain fatigue.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 21, 2023, 07:13:59 pm
content: Quote from: alligatorblues on September 21, 2023, 04:26:39 amSo what is the purpose of the post?

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2023, 07:34:20 pm
content: Quote from: Veteran68 on September 21, 2023, 05:42:50 pmReally? Like what? Oh wait, I see it! hFE!QuoteHmmm, that's seriously cherry-picking some data from Joe Q. Smiths chart and applying a very narrow definition of "robust" to afewoneusedsample of one legacy model, IIRC. Look at that data a little more and tell me which meters passed at column AB or higher without modification. Fluke makes several models that you can drop kick into your swimming pool and they'll still work. Mil-spec and ATEX-certified versions as well.https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1cXzYpIoyVm9QJUju4KXqM22CEQZP3_xwWvDyeVwxTy4/edit?pli=1#gid=400910915

author: BeBuLamar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2023, 07:43:05 pm
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on September 21, 2023, 07:34:20 pmI have never had a DMM dead due to transient voltage the kind the Joe Smith tested. However, I have dropped my DMM from 20ft height down to concrete and got water sprayed on my DMM. So the kind of robustness I need is more of a mechanical/physical than electrical. Oh yeah electrically I have many time trying to make a 480V voltage measurement when the test lead is in the current jack. Yes I do work with 480V power daily.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2023, 07:59:24 pm
content: Quote from: BeBuLamar on September 21, 2023, 07:43:05 pmI'd like to think that I would only make that mistake once....it's a good thing the clearing time for that fuse at 1000A is probably in the microseconds.

author: Doctorandus_P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2023, 08:27:22 pm
content: If I see a hobbyist using a fluke, he drops a few points on my respect list. Those flukes are just flukes. they don't have a very good performance to price ratio, and he probably just bought it for a show off.I can understand service technicians using a fluke. They often get them from their boss who pays for them, and having a bit of extra reliability can be valuable if your day job involves (for example) two hour drives to do some on-site measurements and repair.But even then, a fluke won't survive getting accidentally ran over by a truck or a forklift, or it can drop in a pit or become otherwise unrecoverable. Now compare that single fluke with 3 Brymen (for a similar total cost). A Brymen (or other quality brand) is not immune to trucks, forklifts or deep pits either, but if such a thing happens, you can just take a brand new spare one out of your car and continue where you left off.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2023, 09:02:07 pm
content: Quote from: BeBuLamar on September 21, 2023, 07:43:05 pmI don't think you are safe to be doing your job.

author: Veteran68
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2023, 09:49:01 pm
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on September 21, 2023, 07:34:20 pmLOL. My favorite feature!No, I'm talking more about features missing from particular meters, not that Fluke doesn't necessarily make a meter with that feature. Though I'm sure we can find something missing from Flukes that you can find on other cheaper meters. I'm talking about things like higher precision, or decent leads (most Fluke leads made these days suck), or backlight/screen readability, or a particular measurement range, etc.As I said, I own several Flukes. I like them. A lot, even! I just see them as a tool fit for particular purposes, not ALL purposes. And in many cases, their perceived value is deemed as much by reputation, credibility, cost, etc. versus actual performance.Quote from: bdunham7 on September 21, 2023, 07:34:20 pmI'll let Joe defend his results and opinion of Flukes based on his testing. I'm well familiar with that spreadsheet and have it saved in my own Google Drive. He didn't test all Flukes to the same level, and only the 101 and 115 passed every single tests he threw at them. He damaged *three* 87V's, arguably Fluke's most well known and respected model. He also hasn't updated that sheet with every meter he's tested. He's also done videos on Fluke 189's and the 77, they're not listed (I don't recall if I watched those videos, I just see them in his video list, so am not speaking to their outcome).AS I SAID, Fluke makes good meters. Excellent meters, even. But not the best meter for everyone or every use case. I'm beginning to see why Joe and Eddie get so much hate for their Fluke opinions, lol. Even Dave has stated that Flukes aren't the best meters by every metric. Which is all I'm saying.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2023, 11:47:10 pm
content: Quote from: Veteran68 on September 21, 2023, 09:49:01 pmYou're the one making unsubstantiated conclusions based on that spreadsheet.Yes, he damaged 3 meters, two of the by applying transients that exceed the stated design limits of the meters (presuming you correlate his transients with the similarly specified CAT tests, something he has disavowed so I'm doing that on my own). One of them got the full 13kV/100µs monster pulse, the other the 12kV/50µs.All of the Brymen's also failed at or below the 12kV/50µs level.In fact, 869S #2 failed at the AA level, one below the AB level that I would have expected it to pass. Of the Flukes, only the 17B+ failed at this level, and it is rated at CAT III/600V, whereas the 869S is CAT IV/1000V. So other than one used 87V with unknown history (AFAIK) which had failed diode clamps (not catastrophic), every single Fluke either equalled or outperformed every Brymen on the list.I don't have a problem with opinions, but factual statements need to be....factual. There are very few data points and these test are not rigorously uniform and thus difficult to interpret, but as an example it looks like a Fluke 11x series, rated CATIII/600V, is more robust than a Brymen 78x series, rated CAT III/1000V and CAT IV/600V. In fact, it passed at the AB level and no Brymen passed at that level--they either failed at a lower level or weren't tested at AB. Brymen's best meter is equal in robustness to the Chinese-market 17B+. That's what I see.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 22, 2023, 12:07:13 am
content: Flukes are fine meters. But as in everything they have a style. And that style either suits you or it doesn't. Doesn't happen to be my cup of tea, so I have sold all of my Fluke meters.This subject is the electronics version of the gearheads arguments about the best brand of trucks or cars or whatever. Vast numbers of people successfully living their lives and doing their jobs with one or another brand, and vast numbers of people explaining how they couldn't possibly be doing that with that wholly defective brand.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 22, 2023, 12:42:46 am
content: Quote from: Simon on September 21, 2023, 07:13:59 pmYeah, strange. But this is an established account, so

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 22, 2023, 12:45:09 am
content: Quote from: Veteran68 on September 21, 2023, 09:49:01 pmFanboys be fanboys.Of course Fluke have had their flops. The Fluke 19 is a classic, almost every one of them failed in the field, I personally had half a dozen on a factory floor at work eventually fail, plus my own personal one. Quite rare to find one still working today.Of course I've done two videos on this. Almost 900k views now

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 22, 2023, 01:02:20 am
content: Quote from: BeBuLamar on September 21, 2023, 07:43:05 pmI'll cop a lot of hate for this, and that's fine. But everyone obsessing over CAT ratings and the intricasies of Joe's overload testing isn't really being practical.That's not to take anything away from Joe's overload testing, it's great data and nice to know, but I would not put a lot of empahsis on it, and I wouldn't use it as a purchasing decision.The fact is that meters rarely fail due to such overload impulses. Very few people would be in a position where the absolute differences seen in Joe's overload testing makes a difference.If it's a name brand and has been independently certified, just run with that and base your buying decision on other stuff that really matters.I've sold 10's of thousands of Brymen meters (Joe's favourite), and many die due to silicon issues or other unknown manufacturing issues, not from overloads. The same can be said for Fluke or any other brand I'm sure.IIRC the 121GW for example is middle of the road in Joe's overload testing, and not one that I am aware of has ever been damaged by overload.

author: wilfred
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 22, 2023, 01:42:45 am
content: Quote from: Simon on September 21, 2023, 07:13:59 pmParticipating in the forum and social discourse not considered valid anymore? The forum community could do with fewer righteous judgmental responses. I don't agree with everything in the OP but I am reluctant to get swept up in a general pile-on. And if others feel the same we'll be left with the pile-on. Great.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 22, 2023, 03:03:20 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on September 22, 2023, 12:45:09 amIt goes both ways, it sometimes seems that almost every proponent of anything else just can't wait to start a debate comparing whatever they're advocating to Fluke. Try doing a "Why my Brymen meters are a better value than Hioki" video and see how many views that gets.My first response to the OP pointed out that there are plenty of decent products not named Fluke. Fluke has gotten pretty expensive here in the US and probably more so in the rest of the world. However, they still have an overall excellent product--the one everyone else compares themselves to. I just think those comparisons need to remain factually accurate, thus my rather strong response toVeteran68's statement. You're right, the actual differences in the level of protection or robustness between decent products probably doesn't matter much. But asserting--as some do--that the Brymen 869S is 'safer then Fluke' because it says CAT IV/1000V on the front is a pretty dubious claim IMO. It would be best if they competed on price and feature set instead.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 22, 2023, 03:51:10 am
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on September 22, 2023, 03:03:20 amYes, it's good to have an industry standard so to speak for comparisons. Someone has to be it, and Fluke it's always been because of the longevity of their models, and that they pioneers the industry.

author: schmitt trigger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 22, 2023, 08:26:04 pm
content: Exactly!There is a reason why everyone and their brothers compare themselves against Fluke.A recognized industry leader, with a sterling hard-won reputation. This doesn’t happen by accident.

author: Veteran68
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 22, 2023, 08:50:51 pm
content: @bdunham7, I'm not sure where we got sideways, but you seem to think I'm a "Fluke hater" and a "Brymen fanboy" based on your comments.I'm neither. I thought I was making it clear -- I own twice as many Fluke meters as I do Brymen meters. They're both GREAT meters. I love DMMs of all stripes. If you have forum signatures enabled, take a look at mine. That's not all the DMMs I own, just the major sampling. You'll notice the Fluke and Brymen representation, along with a bunch of others.My first "dream" meter that took me years to work up to owning was an 87-V, after having the opportunity to use the 87-III back in the early 90's at my job. And I had a great deal of pride in finally be able to get one. And still do! I have a HUGE amount of respect for Fluke, and their reputation. Me simply stating that they're not the best meter for every situation is not betraying that respect. It's an opinion based on what I'd consider widely available evidence, and Joe's work was only an anecdotal example of that. And to that point, you used the term "safety," not me. I used the term "robustness" as Joe has drilled home the difference. I consider Fluke's extremely safe, as in when they fail I feel confident they're unlikely to take me out with them (not that I'd be working on energy levels that would scare me much even with a DT830). So no, I don't consider Joe's work to be the final word on what makes a good vs bad meter. I only offered it as an anecdote to counter the notion that Fluke's are often raised up to be faultless and above everything else, the holy grail of DMMs. That's all. I seemed to have struck a nerve with you though. Sorry about that.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 22, 2023, 08:53:31 pm
content: Quote from: wilfred on September 22, 2023, 01:42:45 amthe thread has been reported and the OP has posted an unusual thread. Usually threads that don't actually ask a question are a sign of trouble so I tagged along to see how it flows, I guess Dave was also brought here by the reports.

author: BeBuLamar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 22, 2023, 09:18:05 pm
content: A lot of people think that the Brymen is the good alternative to Fluke and I wonder why Brymen doesn't sell their DMM's in the USA? I know that Greenlee is brand labeling their products but I think it would be much better for Brymen to sell them as Brymen and also offering the entire line instead of only few models.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 22, 2023, 09:49:22 pm
content: Quote from: Veteran68 on September 22, 2023, 08:50:51 pmNo, we're not sideways and my nerves are fine. Just disputing (rather bluntly I suppose) a particular conclusion that has been repeated in one form or another on this forum--it's not just you.To further the original supposed point of this thread and in case anyone thinks I'm a 'fanboy' of sorts, for budget-minded hobbyists looking for the best 'bang-for-buck' DMMs today, IMO they are the (handheld) FLIR DM64 and (bench) a used HP 34401A [not the super-early versions]. At the prices you can get those for (or could recently), there's no reason to be buying crap. OTOH, these statements that people are buying Fluke products as a fashion statement or to show off seem a bit ridiculous. The reasons that the OP cites in his advertorial aren't really all that far off as far as what some customers actually think. But that's all just my opinion.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 22, 2023, 09:55:51 pm
content: Quote from: BeBuLamar on September 22, 2023, 09:18:05 pmWell, Brymen already is an alternative of sorts because they manufacture part of Fluke's line. So they do sell their meters in the US, they're just yellow and green, not red or blue. Perhaps their contractual agreements prohibit direct sales, perhaps they don't want to endanger a lucrative business deal. IDK what percentage of Brymen's business is Fluke products, but it could be a pretty big part. I also recall Dave saying the Brymen is doggedly loyal to their existing distributors, and Greenlee has been around and selling their meters for quite a while.Edit: According to ImportYeti, Brymen imports (into the US) to Fluke, Greenlee, Tempo, Astro and FLIR.

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 22, 2023, 10:25:44 pm
content: Most expensive handhelds DMMs are typically of better ergonomics design, made of quality materials and nicer to operate (quality switches, buttons and lead sockets).

author: BeBuLamar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 22, 2023, 10:38:28 pm
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on September 22, 2023, 09:55:51 pmAlthough the data shows that Fluke imports some Brymen I don't see in any of the Fluke lineup has a model that looks like Brymen design. Perhaps Fluke imports the Brymen to sell them as Amprobe?

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 22, 2023, 10:50:27 pm
content: Quote from: BeBuLamar on September 22, 2023, 10:38:28 pmI can't get free access to the info anymore, but the last time we looked at it they made some of the Fluke clamp meters and yes, some Amprobe products. For big customers like Fluke or Teledyne (FLIR) they aren't likely to just rebadge an existing model like they did with Greenlee or EEVBlog, those customers are going to want a specific custom product. The Fluke 373 is one example IIRC.

author: Veteran68
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 22, 2023, 11:06:10 pm
content: I knew of Greenlee and FLIR (I have one of each) but I'd never heard of Brymen making Flukes -- that's interesting!Quote from: Bud on September 22, 2023, 10:25:44 pmPrice, features, reputation, and all else aside, I've said it before and will say it again -- out of all the meters I own, the most ergonomic and comfortable in my hand is the Fluke 117. It's not so small and fiddly as pocket meters, and not so large as the 87-V and my Brymens. Even the Fluke 17B Max which is a better electronics meter than the 117 is just slightly too big to be as comfortable in the hand.

author: Nusa
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 22, 2023, 11:16:43 pm
content: "$3-$150USD" isn't even close to the "Most Expensive" by a couple orders of magnitude, so that's a fail from the start.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 22, 2023, 11:41:08 pm
content: Quote from: BeBuLamar on September 22, 2023, 09:18:05 pmI can tell you why, loyalty, and possibly a contract. Brymen have insane loyalty to their dealers and contracts, to the point of absurdity. It's likely that Brymen have an exclusive contract with Greenlee for US sales.It's the reason why I cannot just sell any Brymen meters, because there already is an "official" Australian dealer in CABAC. This is why Brymen had to create the special model 786 just for me, to get around this.I wanted to the sell the BM257 at the time, but they wouldn't let me. And as CABAC hadn't agreed the sell the BM235 yet, I was free to sell that. But not so with the BM789, so they created the BM786 just for me.They have always refused to let me sell the BM869.The nuts thing is, I bet you I sell countless more meters than CABAC.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 23, 2023, 12:18:15 am
content: Quote from: tridac on September 21, 2023, 01:20:29 pmIn my experience, the early generations of Fluke bench DMMs weren't that spectacular.I can't remember the model numbers, but we had two types.The older ones tended to fail, but were easily repairable, & the later ones didn't fail as often, but were absolute swine to repair!This was back in the late 1970s, & they were expected to work full time, sometimes in the workshop & sometimes in the field.Multimeters needed to be as tough as an Avo model 8 to "hack it" in such service.The catch cry at my work was "If it works, it's a Fluke", & not in the complimentary meaning of the phrase!Interestingly, when my section of Telecom Australia got handheld DMMS, they were from Beckman.The "Beck Persons" were "tough as old boots" & hung in there for years.When I left & went to Commercial TV, I was issued with a Fluke 77, which fulfilled the promise of Fluke reliability, operating flawlessly ever since, apart from losing the continuity beep after I accidentally dunked it in a bucket of salty water (don't ask!).When I finally left that company, it was presented to me, & is still giving good service.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 23, 2023, 01:02:00 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on September 22, 2023, 01:02:20 amI have always had reservations about the current paranoia about "transients" on the Mains.If they are such a hazard, how come people have used Mains operated equipment for many decades without say, Mum's vacuum cleaner expiring, or the TV, or perhaps, in later times, modems?The "meter thing" assumes that a transient will conveniently come along & blow your DMM apart in your hands, just at the very moment, out of a million other moments, that you are testing the Mains voltage.Beasts like AVO 8s, or Simsons, weren't CAT rated, & arguably "didn't need no steenkin' CAT ratings", as they were too big & heavy to be "handheld" & were usually placed on the floor or a "technician's stool" so were a metre or more away from the user. They also had heavy Bakelite cases which were a lot harder to vapourise than a nice molded thermoplastic case.Just the statistics of thousand of Techs & EEs using such meters over many decades is a potent argument against theresponse that seems to be the default today.One favourite peeve I have about modern meters is the habit they have of turning themselves off after a set amount of time, even if you are in the middle of using them.Even modern Flukes seem to do it, whereas my ancient Fluke 77 doesn't turn off unless it has been unused for a fairly long time, & even then, if it detects that there is a reading other than "OL" it aborts the turn off.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 23, 2023, 01:04:05 am
content: My ears were ringing....Quote from: Veteran68 on September 21, 2023, 05:42:50 pmAt least from my testing they (Fluke) has some of the most robust products available today. Feature wise, it's why you don't see me using them.Quote from: bdunham7 on September 21, 2023, 07:34:20 pmI defined my use of the term robustness in the FAQ as: "...describing a meter’s ability to perform without failure under a wide range ofelectrical transient and steady state conditions. "Quote from: BeBuLamar on September 21, 2023, 07:43:05 pmHad my first Fluke meter not been damaged so many times from various transients, I most likely would have never started testing them. The 8000A was a princess and you best treat it that way. Repairing it was costly pop back then even with my labor to replace the custom ICs. After I restored it, it has never failed again (It's a shell queen now). I replaced it with brand new HP, and that meter has never been damaged. When I was wanting an even better meter, guess which brand I went with?Quote from: Veteran68 on September 21, 2023, 09:49:01 pmI did not test all the meters to the same levels as it takes a very long time to run these tests and in many cases, I just didn't care. If a meter makes it past that new generator which can put out a 100us FWHH pulse with a peak of about 6kV, I call it robust. Again, I chose that criteria based on where the runner up failed in the very first meters I looked at. You need to realize that I could damage EVERY meter I looked at. That's not really what my goal was. I was more interested in if there were trends in the data from various manufactures, which there is. Testing at these absurd levels is just for fun. To damage that Fluke 107 that was donated, I had to change that original generator to output a 15kV 100us FWHH pulse. That's not something I expect me, or anyone else would subject a meter to.Yes, I ran an old 77 I pulled from a dumpster and a 189 that I bought as junk just out of my own curiosity. That 77 didn't survive much of anything. The 189 was never damaged and I still have that meter. Both were in very bad condition and I saw no reason to record them. I learned that lesson when I tested an old Fluke 87V and blew the ass out of it. Even in this thread it seems people like to point it out. Of course, after I repaired it, that same meter survived the low voltage generator just fine.All the other data should have been current but sure enough. I last bought a very expensive Keysight that had a very short life. That's two for two with Keysight. So many other problems with that meter. It may have just been an oversight or I was just so pissed off at Keysight's inability to do what companies like Brymen, Hioki, Gossen, Fluke or even Joeqsmith modified meters are able to achieve, that I just set it aside. Odd is my local copy is current.************* SPREADSHEET HAS NOW BEEN UPDATED TO INCLUDE THAT DATA ***************Quote from: bdunham7 on September 21, 2023, 11:47:10 pmI assume everyone now understands what an IEC combo generator is and why my testing has nothing to do with the CAT standards.QuoteYes, but again I doubt the hobbyist is ever going to see these large transients. Once you get above that 6kV number, personally, I don't really care but it is interesting that you continue to see trends in this region.QuoteHopefully that's not true. The meters are new except a few small exceptions. They all get subjected to the same levels up to the point where they are damaged, or they survive that low voltage generator. My conclusions from running these tests, most UNI-T products can easily be damaged by ESD. Most off brand meters, if they even survive to get connected to the low voltage generator are damaged below 2kV. Looking at the name brands like Hioki, Gossen, Fluke and I will include Brymen now as a main player, they all know how to design a robust product. Last, the higher the cost doesn't suggest a more robust product.Quote from: EEVblog on September 22, 2023, 01:02:20 amFirst, let me say the offer is still on the table if you are interested. As far as using the data for a purchasing decision, I certainly would. First, because I paid some major $$$ for a product that was easily damaged. I had a lot of down time and heart break over that shit Fluke. If I had know it was so sensitive, I would have purchased something else.QuoteI can't answer that. I wouldn't be too surprised if what has damaged more meters wasn't things like, let me just measure the output of my MOT. Or, let me just measure my flyswatter. And of course, let me measure the output coil of my cars ignition system. My favorite was the person who did a write up on a Fluke 189 they had repaired. I asked them what had happened to it and the original owner had it connected to the HV supply in a jet plane. Funny story...QuoteDon't be jinxing my meters!! Seven years on the clock (first BM869s), well beyond infant mortality. Guessing I will drop first.The production 121GW I purchased from you was damaged by the grill starter. It had enough leakage that the readings were way off. Normally, I would stop the test but it's a special meter and deserved to see where a hard failure would occur. Looks like I stopped at 2kV 100us FWHH. Meter also was damaged from the chemical tests and there was not much left of it after the switch cycle tests.

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 23, 2023, 01:08:55 am
content: Quote from: vk6zgo on September 23, 2023, 12:18:15 amI had a Fluke 77 also, in my days. However, it was in a gentle environment with no chance of salt water dunking.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 23, 2023, 03:58:18 am
content: Quote from: vk6zgo on September 23, 2023, 01:02:00 amAppliances with electronics do occasionally get blown up, especially TVs and washing machines for some reason. But the actual transient hazards on household circuits are actually pretty low despite the occasional debate about where the CAT lines are drawn. Just don't do your electrical troubleshooting during a thunderstorm and you'll be OK. 480V 3-phase panels are where the real excitement starts.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 23, 2023, 04:12:05 am
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on September 23, 2023, 01:04:05 amWhat I meant wasn't that each individual test lacked rigor or uniformity, but rather that you didn't treat each meter in the exact same way and that can make the data susceptible to misinterpretation. That's fine, I'm not expecting you to sacrifice $10K+ in new meters in a uniform way. If you look at the data the way you seem to suggest and just use it to differentiate between meters with reasonable transient protection and those that just blow up way too easily, then it tell the story that Brand A,B and C have no real protection while brands X, Y and Z all seem to be robust enough. I think it is clear enough that brand X,Y and Z are good enough in this department that discussions of which to buy should move to a different topic, such as warranties and color.Also, this is a complex topic, but I would assume that certain advanced features and characteristics in meters are harder to implement without compromising protection. So simpler meters are easier to make robust.

author: BrokenYugo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 23, 2023, 04:35:19 am
content: Quote from: vk6zgo on September 23, 2023, 01:02:00 amYeah, if you actually look into said CAT ratings you'll find that unless you poke at 3 phase service drops or perhaps the DC in an electric car you probably don't need a CAT IV meter.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 23, 2023, 04:35:37 am
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on September 23, 2023, 04:12:05 amYou would need to provide me with detailed examples of what you are referring to and we can go from there. Free free to toss out as many examples as you like.I am not sure what you mean by simpler meters. Simpler as in highly integrated hardware or lack of features. From damaging so many over the years, there is another trend. Meters that do well all follow a couple of common ways to protect them. Certainly not rocket science. I've taken some fairly complex meters, like the UNI-T UT181A which was damaged from ESD and made it very robust. I demonstrated the problems with UT61E and showed how it could be mitigated. I think the most complex meter I have looked at may have been that Gossen. The simplest, maybe the free one from HF.

author: RoGeorge
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 23, 2023, 04:37:43 am
content: Also, depends a lot of the domain where the DMM is used.An electrician might be interested in safety and robustness, while an electronist will use the DMM mostly in a lab (controlled environment) and at low voltage. For the field electrician, safety is critical. Rain and dust might happen. For the electronist, fast response or fast boot can be much more important than safety.Then, there is that some people's job is always on the move, working in remote locations, while others are working in the same lab every day. If you have 10 teams working remote, you need 10 DMMs, and you need to balance between price and features. If your DMMs get lost or stolen often, might make sense to use something cheaper as long as the cheaper instrument is still "good enough" for field work.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 23, 2023, 04:48:05 am
content: Quote from: RoGeorge on September 23, 2023, 04:37:43 amElectronics does not preclude the use of or designing for high voltage applications.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 23, 2023, 08:58:58 am
content: Quote from: BrokenYugo on September 23, 2023, 04:35:19 amI've certainly looked at 3 phase supplies into TV Transmitter sites using a Fluke 77, before that, a Beckman, & before that, an AVO 8.That was back when WA had 250v Ph to Neutral, or 440v between phases.In most cases, Neutral does appear conveniently close to where you are measuring, so it is usually satisfactory to measure Phase to Neutral.Just because DMMs are denoted "handheld" does not mandate they be used that way. I usually secured the meter somewhere in easy line of sight & devoted my time to placing the meter probes correctly.Also, OCD gets a bad press, but when it comes to setting the DMM correctly it is good to "check it twice" like unto Santa, or even go him one better!

author: EPAIII
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 23, 2023, 09:43:56 am
content: I purchased a Brymen BM869s from TME in Poland back in January. I paid under $260, including shipping. As far as I can tell, it is identical with the Greenlee DM-860A except for the name and model number on the front and it has a red outer protective wrap instead of the Greenlee green one. And the Brymen came with extra flexible leads. The Greenlee price is $346 and that does not include shipping. There is easily a $100 difference between them. FOR THE EXACT, SAME METER.Oh, I selected that DMM for the specs., like the DC, AC, and resistance accuracy.I like Greenlee. I have a number of Greenlee tools. I could see a 10% or 15% difference for the convenience of faster delivery from the US. But $100? I gladly waited several weeks for the delivery. And banked that $100+.Quote from: bdunham7 on September 22, 2023, 09:55:51 pm

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 23, 2023, 10:33:08 am
content: Quote from: EPAIII on September 23, 2023, 09:43:56 amWell, to be fair, the lifetime warranty must be paid somehow...Naturally the hobbyist is not the target market for Greenlee. For a business it will make a difference, especially if you are in the market for a meter to replace the now defunct 187/189 (there are still many at my workplace) - the DM-860A fills that void pretty well and at a much lower cost than the 289 or a U1272A, U1282A from Keysight.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 23, 2023, 10:36:03 am
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on September 22, 2023, 09:49:22 pmThe Flir DM64 is on sale for ~$50 - at its original price, however, I wouldn't necessarily put it in the hobbyist "bang-for-buck" category, but that might be just me.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 23, 2023, 03:22:58 pm
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on September 23, 2023, 04:35:37 amSince it is what everyone seems to talk about, look at the BM8969S and 87V tests. You tested the 87V four times total, including the one that blew up and then again after repairs. The first 87V got the 13kV/100µs whacking right off the bat and failed. The first 869S got a whole bunch of lower energy tests, then was given the same 13kV whacking and it failed too. You really can't use that data to compare the two meters, all you know is that they both quit when you nuked them.Now look at the second 869S vs. the last 87V (#409xxxxx) where you progressively worked up from well before the failure point and tested them at each step until failure. The 869S failed at AA and the 87V at AB. So here you can compare at least those two samples of meter and see that the 87V passed the test that the 869s failed at, and then failed itself at the next level. That means it is nominally 'more robust' although the significance of that is debatable. If you hadn't tested the 87V at AA, you wouldn't know whether it would have passed or not and the data then wouldn't support any conclusion which one had done better.My contention earlier is that people are looking at your spreadsheet and somehow reading in stuff that really isn't supported there. The only way the data supports a conclusion that Meter X is better than Meter Y is if Meter Xpasseda test that Meter Yfailed--or perhaps passed a test higher than one the the other failed. Unless you bought a whole pile of new meters and methodically ran them through the tests from low to high, you aren't going to have the type of data set that would support the specific conclusions people seem to be looking for.QuoteI specifically meant lack of features. I was thinking that certain features might make protection more difficult. Even a higher voltage rating (1000VDC vs 600VDC) might make it more difficult since the lower voltage meter can start clamping sooner. The most robust of the lot in your tests appear to be the small 600V rated Fluke 10x and 11x series. Of the Brymens, only the BM235 and the BM839 appear to have passed at the AA level.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 24, 2023, 12:34:46 am
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on September 23, 2023, 03:22:58 pmThanks for taking the time to put your thoughts down. Indeed I did run an 87V four times and the first time was at that 13kV level. It's similar to the UNI-T 139 fanboys crying about their beloved meter getting fried as soon as I attached it. As I covered in the FAQ and forum, in those early tests, I did not have that programmable generator. I was changing the design of my generator for every level I tested at! In the case of the UNI-T, it showed up late and I wasn't waiting around for it. It got dropped into the mix in the middle of testing the others and died. To me, it was good enough to know it wasn't going to come out on top and that's all I was really looking for.13kV was what I tested that Fluke 101 to before I stopped. I tossed an 87V on there to see what would happen and it failed. The first round of testing gave me a some ideas on how to run a larger scale test and also how I came up with the limit for the new generator. I also doubled the FWHH. So, the first series of tests are not like the second, but I again assume everyone knows that.What I did see in that first set was that a brand I had despised for decades came out leaps and bounds ahead of any other brand I looked at.QuoteBy the time I bought the BM869s, I had designed and constructed the new transient generator. It survived that generator just fine but I still had the old generator setup with that 13kV transient. So I ran it. I want to be very clear, it wasn't like throwing a switch to change those levels on the original generator. It took a lot of time. What it did tell me is that my new Brymen BM869s, like the 87V, could not survive to the same level my Fluke 101 could.Because so many fans were interested in knowing more about the levels that the UT139 and the 87V would fail, and actually I was curious myself, I decided to repeat these tests with the new generator.QuoteAgree with all of the above. You can see that the old 87V I damaged at 1.5kV was never tested on the old high voltage generator after repairs. In some cases, like this, I just didn't care. That meter survived the new generator and I deemed it was a good indicator that something was fucked up when it originally failed. This is what drove me to buy a new one, and to never document used meters in that spreadsheet. So the Fluke 77 and 189 were left off, even though that 189 was kicking some ass.QuoteWe talked about statistics in the FAQ and forum already. As far as what people take away from these tests, I can't control that. All I can do is present the data. The most common thing I hear is people equating it to the safety standards. It doesn't matter how many times I go over it, how many light bulbs or LEDs I pop, there are people that are just not educated enough to grasp the concept and will continue to spread their ignorance across the net. There's nothing you or I can do about that.QuoteI'm not sure. It appears I never ran the Brymen BM789, BM319, BM235 and Gossen M248B to failure. Again, it is a pain in the ass to change the old generator. About the only thing going for it is that I took notes on how to mod it. Out comes the soldering iron... Looks like I took that Gossen up to 12kV before I stopped wasting more time with it. It could very well out perform the Fluke 107. For that matter, the 101 may out perform the 107. For me, it really doesn't matter.Let me put it another way. There is no way I would buy a meter that is damaged with 1kVDC or rectified 220VAC is applied. I've shown the grill starter's waveform and how it compares with the IEC standard. There is no way I would buy a meter that was damaged from that. The same is true for that ESD gun I designed. It's fairly close to the IEC standards. It's never damaged a meter during testing as the grill starter seems to weed out all the UNI-Ts. So what's left is the wide transients. I would guess if I ran my Fluke 8000A, it wouldn't even make it that far. Not all electronics hobbyist play with circuits that can potentially damage their equipment. I do. I keep my first DSO around just for playing with circuits that I know could potentially damage one of my good scopes. Similar to the IEC waveforms, you're not going to find it in real life. It's just a standard. And like my own testing, I can't say how it compares to transients and other conditions I have created on the bench, intentional or otherwise. What I can see is there is a trend of these off brand cheap meters to fail at very low levels and it's not surprising when you look at their designs. That Amprobe AM510 that was the runner up in my first round of testing was $50. I want something at least that robust.All that said, again not every hobbyist will have the same potential risks I do. I'm not suggesting that. Maybe you play with your digital stuff and wear a strap, or maybe you're another Photonic Induction. To me, I have provided everyone with some data and it's really up to each person to decide how to make use of it, or as Dave mentions, if at all. I really don't care what meters people buy. The smartest thing anyone can do it buy tools that do the job they need it for. The dumbest thing is attempt to modify a safety device to try and make it do something it wasn't designed for.Hopefully that clears things up a bit for you. Read the FAQ if you need more info. If it's not covered there or hasn't been discussed in the forums already, feel free to hit me up.*** lots of typos and grammar, there comes a point where even I cringe...

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 24, 2023, 02:28:53 am
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on September 24, 2023, 12:34:46 amYou probably already know this, but Fluke owns Amprobe. My favorite handheld that I have is the Amprobe 37XR-A. It lives in a drawer while I use my Siglent bench meters instead.Also, I'm 98% sure this thread started with a spam post by somebody who probably had a weak password.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 24, 2023, 03:29:12 am
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on September 24, 2023, 02:28:53 amI have seen many people make that claim, and like the people that state my testing is related to safety, there really is no stopping it.https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/do-you-kill-flukes/msg1999994/#msg1999994***Also, should mention that while the AM510 was the runner up in my first series of tests, it was damaged at 5.8kV. I did repair it and when retested on the new transient generator, it survived a 5kV 100us FWHH pulse. Not a surprise as it had not been damaged at 5kV with the original generator. What was strange is that the AM530, which is more than double the cost, failed at 1.5kV on the new generator.As I have stated many times during the videos and in the forums, I look for meters that are tested to 61326. I could care less about 61010. I don't believe I have seen a meter not pass that new generator that has been certified for the EMC standards. But my confidence in the companies who perform these tests continues to erode the more shit I see get certified. CE mark is much the same.

author: Veteran68
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 24, 2023, 03:43:23 am
content: Yeah Fluke and Amprobe are actually siblings, not parent-child, but I've heard that Fluke owns Amprobe for a long time. To the point I still say that myself even though I know better.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 24, 2023, 03:44:29 am
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on September 24, 2023, 03:29:12 amBut have you seen Fluke make that claim?https://www.fluke.com/#:~:text=The%20Fluke%20family%20includes%20many,including%20PLS%2C%20Pomona%20and%20Amprobe.The Fluke family includes many brands around the world including PLS, Pomona and Amprobe.If you click on the link below this statement, it says "Select a Fluke company" and a list comes up. Keithley and Tektronix aren't on the list, Amprobe and Pomona are.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 24, 2023, 03:55:02 am
content: That's interesting. Any idea what restructuring happened, why and when?Amprobe's site makes no mention of it.Quotehttps://www.amprobe.com/about-us/They do call out Beha-Amprobe® as a Division of Fluke Corp. (USA). The webs we weave.....

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 24, 2023, 04:07:27 am
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on September 24, 2023, 03:55:02 amWell they do say "AMPROBE--A FLUKE COMPANY" in the upper left hand corner and then they show the location of the corporate headquarters is a PO Box...As far as when and why, I don't know what is going on inside Fortive but something is. They discontinued the bench meters rather suddenly and the recommended replacement products are Keithley. I don't know why they are so eager to link Amprobe and Fluke, as I would think it would be a good idea to clean up their product line first.

author: EPAIII
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 24, 2023, 05:27:22 am
content: To be honest I had not considered the question of warranty. Brymen offers a one year warranty. Greenlee offers a "lifetime" warranty but they define "lifetime" in words so vague that they can mean anything.Is that worth another $100, even to a "professional company"? I don't know. Since I have purchases one, I certainly hope is isn't.On top of that, I do not see any distinction in the economics of such a purchase between a hobbyist and a professional or the company they work for. If anything the hobbyist would be more concerned about making a wise purchase. Personally I am somewhat between those two categories. I am retired but purchased this meter for a profit making venture. In my professional career I often had the responsibility of purchasing equipment. Frankly I was always suspicious of extended warranty deals and I would not have considered an extra $100 in the purchase price of a $260 meter, that's an additional 38%, to be a good idea. Even 10% extra for an extended warranty, IMHO, is more than enough to pay for it unless the item is very prone to failure. And if it was very prone to failure, then I would not want to buy it anyway. Why would I?So NO, I have negotiated enough purchases in my day to think something is rotten in that one. It either indicates excessive greed or an item that will not last very long. And in this case, since we are talking about the exact, same meter, it is a case of excessive greed.Quote from: rsjsouza on September 23, 2023, 10:33:08 am

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 24, 2023, 05:38:20 am
content: Quote from: Veteran68 on September 24, 2023, 03:43:23 amI do know that they share the same (Fluke) in-house compliance testing team and facilities.

author: pdenisowski
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 24, 2023, 11:04:53 am
content: When I was in engineering school in the early 1990s, I decided to pay the extra money (which I frankly didn't have) to buy a "quality" meter I could use for my entire career, and 30+ years ago Fluke was the "safe" choice. It turned out to be a good investment, since I still use my Fluke 77 as my primary meter today.Prior to the Internet and especially prior to cheap Chinese-manufactured electronics, it wasn't exactly easy to find, compare, or buy electronics outside of Radio Shack (which is where my first, analog, meter came from). I recall having to visit a non-descript electronic supply shop in a somewhat run-down part of town to buy my Fluke, since the only other option would have been via a mail-order catalog.I sometimes wonder if people who are used to Amazon, Ali, and $10 meters that (nominally) have more functionality than my Fluke appreciate why it was important to buy a (nominally) high-quality, reliable meter "back in the day"At least that's my excuse

author: Veteran68
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 24, 2023, 03:35:21 pm
content: Quote from: pdenisowski on September 24, 2023, 11:04:53 amI assume that's a recent picture? If so, given their vintage, you obviously take really good care of your meters! They both look brand new.I'm the same way about my gear. While I do buy some gear intended for hard use, and to be disposable if they die, I try to baby my stuff as best I can. This was my first digital meter, bought at Conrad Electronics in Germany when I stationed there with the US Army from 1989-1992. This one was bought in late 1990 or early 1991. Basically a similar design to the DT830 but I was quite proud of it at the time. The case is a bit worse for wear but other than some LCD scratches the meter is in pretty good shape for its >30years.

author: JoeRoy
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 24, 2023, 03:41:25 pm
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on September 24, 2023, 03:55:02 amSince Amprobe is a division of Fluke Corp, seems like Fluke is selling DMMs from its competitor Brymen, because "Amprobe AM-220 to AM-270, and the AM-140-A and AM-160-A models match up (OEM) with the Brymen models".

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 24, 2023, 03:52:27 pm
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on September 24, 2023, 03:29:12 amAs others have pointed out, Amprobe claims it themselves...in their logo even.But I'm not saying that as a plus for the Amprobe, only that it is. I'm not a Fluke fanboy by any means. I originally bought that Amprobe because it had all the features I wanted included Inductance testing. I didn't know anything about Fluke at the time, except that they were overpriced. I used it for 12 years up into the 400VDC range with no issues. The only flaw the device has at all is that the dial no long stops in the off position, and you can spin it 360, but it still works fine.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 24, 2023, 05:01:18 pm
content: Quote from: JoeRoy on September 24, 2023, 03:41:25 pmThose are "Legacy" products now, Amprobe really does appear to have a pretty large lineup now--too large IMO-- and it doesn't appear to be Brymen-based. It looks like some of their products are CIE, APPA and a variety of other Taiwan and China manufacturers.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 24, 2023, 05:09:36 pm
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on September 24, 2023, 04:26:41 amI hate to say it out loud, but it almost looks like someone at Fortive has some ideas about moving the consumer/prosumer/sub $5K commercial products out of the Fluke brand in part or entirely. That's the only reason I can think of for setting up Amprobe as a professional/commercial brand (look at the whole product line) in a way that competes directly with the Fluke product line--and uses the association with the Fluke name to do it.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 24, 2023, 05:11:50 pm
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on September 24, 2023, 03:52:27 pmI was hoping you would have more info to add than whats been posted so far.I don't own stock in these companies but maybe their annual report had something published about it. When Danaher bought Amprobe, the announcement wasn't Fluke bought Amprobe but maybe it was always structured that way and wasn't made public. The reason I suggest that is from the following:Quotehttps://cases.justia.com/washington/court-of-appeals-division-i/64408-4.unp.doc.pdf?ts=1323968165

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 24, 2023, 05:27:54 pm
content: "Collectively Fluke" 😉

author: MarkKn
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 26, 2023, 04:50:24 am
content: To answer OP question—Why? Because I can.

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 26, 2023, 12:03:41 pm
content: Quote from: MarkKn on September 26, 2023, 04:50:24 amThat's what I was going to say yesterday but since you did it ...Yea because I can.Because I want it.Because it's there ... any more questions?Why do people buy corvettes which can far far exceed the speed limit to go to the grocery store?Why do people buy an expensive piece of art to hang on the wall - it doesn't do anything.Or the final answer - Why spend money on an expensive _______ you don't really need?Because you can't take it with you.

author: Veteran68
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 26, 2023, 12:15:39 pm
content: Based on the last couple of replies, I wonder if the posters read the whole (weird) original post.While the subject line seems to be questioning the reason why hobbyists would buy an expensive meter, his post was clearly an essay on why he thinks hobbyists SHOULD buy expensive meters, rather than why they shouldn't.

author: BeBuLamar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 26, 2023, 01:16:02 pm
content: Quote from: MarkKn on September 26, 2023, 04:50:24 amThe OP didn't ask the question. It looks like a question in the tittle but the OP really not asking but rather explaining why one should do just that.

author: DavidAlfa
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 26, 2023, 02:16:07 pm
content: This doesn't make sense and definitely doesn't apply for most hobbists, might for engineers having a lab at home and a beefy salary.And of course Youtubers because they are like that, 32 cores to play a game that uses only 4, 64GB RAM but never uses more than 16... and $1000 Fluke to measure LEDs and pushbuttons in arduino

author: armandine2
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 26, 2023, 02:22:13 pm
content: I don't believe hobbyists do buy the most expensive meters.Obviously, they don't generally and I doubt the minority who want the best actually would buy the most expensive meters.This is partly because a lack of awareness of what (esoteric) high cost meters are out there to buy and some recognition that these may well not be suitable for them.What comes to mind would be the Fluke process meters, EX meters, and clamp meters - as well the higher end Gossens.

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 26, 2023, 02:52:18 pm
content: Quote from: BeBuLamar on September 26, 2023, 01:16:02 pmPerhaps trying to justify their own purchase by finding other's who agree with their logic. I think there are certain people who watch reviews for the same reason. They want to see their product measure a 1k and 1.5V battery and get 5-stars so they feel better about their purchase. On my channel where a high percentage of meters meet the dumpster, I think it stirs up just the opposite feelings.

author: armandine2
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 27, 2023, 07:14:32 pm
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on September 26, 2023, 02:52:18 pmThat deference and rejection sounds like regular human (consumer) behaviour, to me.I don't think I have a meter which you have tested, from the many videos on your channel I've seen (and the fewmeters I have) - Though, I might have had another Keysightbut for your testing.I guess you are unconcerned (relaxed/ambivalent) as regards to the cost of meters to users / hobbyists - given that the meters you tested were not confined to any particular price bracket.But , of course, your channel though hard on meters failing your tests is squarely an "industry" promotional consumer video for the handheld dmm.

author: nigelwright7557
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 27, 2023, 07:50:45 pm
content: I have bought a few cheap DMM's and had poor results especially with resistance readings.One measured 4 ohms on 0r22 resistor !In the end I paid a bit more and got a Kaiweets DMM and that has been very good.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 28, 2023, 12:28:18 am
content: Quote from: nigelwright7557 on September 27, 2023, 07:50:45 pmKaiweets IS one of the cheapest DMM brands. They have no name recognition at all, except for making really cheap meters.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 28, 2023, 12:29:44 am
content: Quote from: joeqsmith on September 26, 2023, 02:52:18 pmTHat's how it works. I get constant emails and comments "I just bought Blah Blah meter, can you review it?"

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 28, 2023, 12:33:51 am
content: Quote from: nigelwright7557 on September 27, 2023, 07:50:45 pmThe early generation on Uni-T DMMS had a neat "party trick", where the resistance ranges would start lying to you as the battery fell in voltage.This happened well before the "Batt" symbol was displayed.On this occasion, the "Board stuffers" had inadvertently inserted a 27kresistor in place of a 15kone in a hard to see location.I was sure the value was wrong, but the Uni-T said 13k, which the "gurus" ruled as "near enough".Trying with my Fluke 77, the value was 27k, but I was sneered at & the gurus wasted the rest of the day, until someone strayed far enough from the herd as to test a known good resistor, which, of course, read lower than its marked value.They then had to do what they could have done hours previously-----fit the correct value resistor.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 28, 2023, 12:54:50 am
content: Quote from: vk6zgo on September 28, 2023, 12:33:51 amI can remember a Fluke 87 once not giving me a reading on a mains transformer primary, it just kept autoranging. All other meters worked fine.

author: DavidAlfa
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 28, 2023, 01:49:23 pm
content: Quote from: vk6zgo on September 28, 2023, 12:33:51 amMine does this but long time (Weeks) after the battery symbol appears.I remember trhe first time I saw nearly 8V in a 5V rail. I freaked out for a moment, turned everything off.Then measured a USB port, also 8V. No way, this must be the DMM!New batteries, good readings again.Since then I never trust any DMM showing low-batt indicator and refuse to use them in such state.

author: BeBuLamar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 28, 2023, 03:07:49 pm
content: Back in the late 70's I bought myself the Radio Shack 22-204 kit and I built it. It's cheap like $15 and it was fine for me. Later I bought the Healthkit IM-2215 DMM kit and I built it. It's OK too. When I started doing electrical work for my work I bought the Fluke 87 (first version) in around 1988. It cost me about $200 I think. I used it up to 2004 and the display went bad. I sent it to Fluke but they said they couldn't repair it anymore and give $100 credit toward the new model. So I bought the 189 I thought the price was close to $400 and I got the $100 credit from Fluke so it's about $300. That's about as much money as I paid for DMM. I now have the 287 and 289 but I didn't have to pay for them.

author: alligatorblues
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 28, 2023, 07:50:18 pm
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on September 21, 2023, 04:27:58 pmThe 27 is a specialized meter that requires simple construction and extreme durability.Quote from: bdunham7 on September 21, 2023, 04:27:58 pmLast 4 digits is just an extreme example I've run into. Doesn't apply often, only on occasion.Quote from: bdunham7 on September 21, 2023, 04:27:58 pmWith digital pots. With the exclusion of Fluke handheld meters, I've broken all but one. But I'm only one person. If someone wants a DMM to measure a car battery or wall outlet, or measure for continuity, just a general every man's DMM, practically anything will do.Quote from: bdunham7 on September 21, 2023, 04:27:58 pm

author: Ground_Loop
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 01, 2023, 03:52:02 am
content: Part of the enjoyment in making fine things is mastering and using fine tools.