Graduated, got a job offer but don't know what to do. - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: chimerahitman
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 30, 2013, 06:21:21 pm
content: Hi there,I graduated as an electronics engineer recently (4 months ago), and I haven't found a real job yet. I teamed up with a friend of mine that has been getting little jobs designing lights for discos/bars/etc and it isn't so bad, just that they aren't constant. Here's more or less where I stand.So far, we haven't made money. Mostly spending, we were building a solder reflow oven, simple stuff. Both of us are in an economic situation where our parents have no problem with us still not having a job. Jobs are hard to come by, and starting fee is about 350 dollars a month. Yes, a month. To me, and my parents, we find it is not worth it, to be enslaved to 40+ hours a week for a monthly 350 bucks. Working independently is also something I want, it gets you farther if you find a niche market, and lights will most likely always have a market, and later one could branch out.Just recently I got a call from a job interviewer related to pcb design place. I don't know the pay, but they wouldn't really try to go out of the way to pay more than 450. That is more or less the standard, some go to even minimum wage of 250 bucks.So, now that I have given a bit of detail of the situation, I would like to ask how should I go about this? Taking a job might give me experience, but I wouldn't want to wash away 40+ hours a week for meager wage. I will go to the interview, and find out more details about the job. Also, it is very enticing working by oneself, though I haven't made a dime since then. I like pcb design a lot, its fun stuff. Should I take a job even if I don't like it for the sake of experience?Btw, the job interviewer has made me wait for about 4 months, and I find that quite annoying. I will attend and make clear that if the wage isn't in the range of 1k +/- 200, I will not accept it. Should I not do this? If I do get paid 1k, it is bare minimum to living alone, basically I would end up with no standard of living. If I decide to stay with parents, then the money will just be pocket money and probably would have to ditch my friend and the opportunity to be self employed.Words from the wise are very important. Please give a bit of guiding light.Thanks.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 30, 2013, 06:24:42 pm
content: If you told us your location it may help to give more specific comments?

author: 8086
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 30, 2013, 06:26:38 pm
content: 350 dollars a month seems crazy low, but I guess it depends on the answer to IanB's question.

author: chimerahitman
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 30, 2013, 06:31:19 pm
content: Sorry, forgot that bit of information.I live in the Dominican Republic. Third world country. Between Cuba and Puerto Rico.

author: 8086
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 30, 2013, 06:35:33 pm
content: Sadly I don't have any information about the cost of living in DR. Perhaps you need to find some info about the average salary for the jobs you're going for. If everyone's earning around 400 dollars, why would you get a thousand? You are just starting out so maybe you should get the experience and later you can demand the thousands you want.

author: hammy
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 30, 2013, 06:40:33 pm
content: Give it a try and get some experience. If it is no good job and if it is no fun, so quit after few month.So you can get some experience and maybe you can get some contacts to fish a better job.Working for a company give you always some real life experience who is valuable. And with this experience you can valuate your next job better.But if they only want to rip you off, don't do it for long. Take what you can get relating to experience and contacts and then quit after some month. If the money you can earn there does not enslave you, because you dont rely on it, it is maybe not so bad to pick the cherry and get the experience.

author: chimerahitman
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 30, 2013, 06:42:27 pm
content: People are mostly angry about wages. Most people have to get a couple of jobs to get by. Only guys that seem to be doing well is politicians and related.http://dominicanwatchdog.org/page-Bizarre_Government_wages_in_Dom_Rep:_Banks_chief_makes_more_than_Barack_Obama_Its basically, if you want to get ahead, you either deal drugs or you know a couple of people in places where they can help you. There are exceptions, but little.

author: chimerahitman
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 30, 2013, 06:53:39 pm
content: I didn't specify the posibility of wages when working with my friend, but according to him, jobs pay around 2k minimum (well it depends on the amount of work), and he once hit jack pot with a gym at around 5-6k. It isn't a steady state paycheck, but if you get a couple of jobs in a month, you see money rain XD. Though from that you have to subtract parts, labor has been mostly him at the design stage and pays a couple of handy men to do installation.So far he hasn't designed a reusable circuit/black box so the time invested versus pay isn't as big as what we intend to do, which is make a circuit that becomes universal per say in that task. That way it will be picking up pre-made parts of the self and selling them.That is why I really think it would be smarter staying with him even if I get no working experience. Btw, it rofl at how companies here ask for 2 years experience on a job, and don't actually give internships. You are out of the uni and basically start at jobs that really aren't meant for engineers that spent 4-5 yrs studying and then have you broom or tidy up stuff, or even worse have you working under an "experienced" engineer that gives no credit and tries to f#%@ you at every turn as to make him the brighter guy and get raises.

author: MacAttak
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 30, 2013, 08:40:13 pm
content: Quote from: chimerahitman on April 30, 2013, 06:21:21 pmSorry, but that is an absolutely piss-poor attitude. If you see that as wasting away your time then I don't know what to say other than you need to drop the sense of entitlement. Having an education is not a guaranteed ticket to a good wage.After dropping out of college, I worked for 70+ hours a week at less than minimum wage for over a year in order to break into my industry. I worked 7 days a week, 365 days a year. Jacket and tie were required (IT for a major hospital center, 25 years ago when IT was still required to dress professionally). They got away with paying me less than minimum wage by classifying my job as a "salaried intern". I was payed a fraction of those around me, even though they were nearly all lazy incompetents and I usually ended up doing their work for them too rather than rely on them for any support.Why? Because I wanted to be in that industry. I didn't run back home to live with my parents. I didn't go back to school to avoid the real world. I pulled my damn britches up and took my licks to get the experience needed to land better employment. I slept on a friends couch for a year before I had enough money to split the apartment rent with them. Once I had a few years under my belt, I found a better job in another state, one that paid 4 times as much. After a few years there I moved on again and doubled my pay a few more times.See the difference there? You can sit at home and be a living cliche in mom's basement waiting for that perfect career to land in your lap (ain't gonna happen). Or you can go out into the world and make your own career as perfect as you want it to be.I'd take the job if I were you. Take whatever experience you can get.You can probably also do extra work with your friend, in addition to your primary job. It's called "moonlighting" and it's very common among young and hungry people like yourself. As the saying goes - "get it while the gettin is good", because it gets harder to do the older you get. You can give up your weekends for a while.And move out of your mom's house ASAP. Even if that means splitting rent with one or two friends. You need to get rid of that safety net.

author: MacAttak
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 30, 2013, 08:55:37 pm
content: Quote from: chimerahitman on April 30, 2013, 06:53:39 pmA bird in the hand is worth two in the bush. If you don't have enough money to afford to live on your own, then you don't have enough to gamble your income. Contracting is ultimately a gamble. Yes, IF everyone pays what you ask, and IF they pay on-time, and IF you don't have too much downtime between contracts, and IF you charge rates that make it worth it, then YES - you CAN make more money doing that. Note the number of "IF"s there.I spent 7 years as an independent contractor in IT, doing work for some very Big international corporations (big with a capital B as in companies that do billions of dollars in annual revenue). In all those years I only had two customers who paid on-time. One was constantly trying to withhold payment - I eventually lost a few thousand dollars from them because they never did pay my last two invoices. Another would always pay late. Usually 9 to 12 months late. It's not fun waiting for a check that represents 40% - 50% of your annual income for nearly a year while corporate executives waffle over it. More than one customer filed for bankruptcy - so I lost a few receivables there as well.My contracting rate during that time ranged from $60/hr up to $150/hr. But even though I worked my ass off it still only worked out to about $80,000/yr along with the constant worry that the "well might dry up". To compare, the going rate for full-time employees in the same field/role/experience was about $70,000/yr in this area. The extra headache of contracting just simply isn't always worth it.Quote from: chimerahitman on April 30, 2013, 06:53:39 pmHow do you know this if you haven't worked for any of them yet? Rumors and here-say are often not very true at all.Company management knows that the cheapest and best way to acquire good engineering talent is to hire them while they are still green (and cheap) and let them grow into the company, untainted by outside influences. They aren't out to screw you, because they know that employee turnover is far more expensive than anything else.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 30, 2013, 09:06:34 pm
content: Quote from: MacAttak on April 30, 2013, 08:55:37 pmSo what? you think that piece of paper makes you better than the janitor ? It doesn't. He's got experience, you don't...If as an engineer you can't use a broom and tidy up then you are a waste of space. even an uneducated person knows how to do that.

author: lemmegraphdat
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 30, 2013, 10:38:25 pm
content: The question is: "Exactly what can you do to make money for this company?"

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 30, 2013, 11:16:07 pm
content: Quote from: chimerahitman on April 30, 2013, 06:21:21 pmThen you need to get one. You need that all-important first step on your resume.QuoteThen you are probably doing it wrong.It's not too hard to find a niche product that you can design and sell, and it only takes a small amount of cash to bootstrap.Do you have crowd source funding in your country?QuoteIt's not washing away 40 hours a week, it's getting experience and something to put on your resume. That is a BIG DEAL.You still have 128 hours a week left. Even with 40 hours sleep, that's still another 80 hours a week to play midnight engineer! You are young, you have no commitments, you can do that.QuoteYes, take the job.There might even be side benefits like being able to whack your own designs on the companies PCB panel for free.Everyone has the dream of being their own boss, but it doesn't just magically happen. The best way to do it is work full time to earn money and work on your own stuff in your (80 hours!) spare time. Once you are making a good income from it, then quit and go full time.QuoteNot if you stay at home.

author: 8086
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 30, 2013, 11:27:41 pm
content: I figure I might as well put in something about my personal approach.I run a business, doing electronics assembly. I do alright but don't make enough to pay myself a proper salary.I have a day job, as an electronics engineer. The assembly business is something I take very seriously, and I do it in my own time. One day I hope to make it my full time job, along with some design work, but that is still in the distance.If you're not making money, get yourself a job. It's really not a waste of time. Personally, I have some amount of contempt for the fact that I am working for someone else's pocket, but that all becomes irrelevant when you consider that I have a salary every month no matter what my assembly business is doing. Security trumps all, and I don't have family to fall back on.

author: ivan747
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 01, 2013, 02:58:58 am
content: Quote from: chimerahitman on April 30, 2013, 06:31:19 pmHello there.I didn't know these jobs paid so badI am going to study electronics engineering next cycle. Nice to meet a fellow Dominican!$350 sounds like a very basic salary here. What exactly is the job about?On the other hand, $1000 sounds like a lot for a new job here. To me $600 sounds more realistic, sadly. If you are talented I am sure you can get a better job later.If you want to stay working on your own, there are lots of things missing here. Small businesses, making light installations for bars, as you say, audio (in my experience, audio guys have no idea what they are doing here),goodelectrical installations in houses and apartments (electricians do a teeeerrible job here) You and I know Dominicans make money out of the weirdest things.Edit:And you can even make money importing things. This is classical. Order 5 expensive multimeters or some used Tektronix from eBay, tell that aunt in Miami to bring it to this country when she comes for a visit and you sell it here for twice the price. The other day I saw a basic Tektroniks 2000 series oscilloscope for almost $500 dollars! He probably bought it broken on eBay for $150.But remember, this should complement your job, it shouldn't be your job. It takes time to sell things and these sort of deals can go wrong.

author: ivan747
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 01, 2013, 03:10:33 am
content: Oh, and something else I have been doing for some months is pointing down on a notebook the names of businesses that I think have to do with electronics. Then I visit their website and see if they could need an electronics engineer. So I have a list of people that could offer me a job.Great places to find names of these companies: industrial zones, telephone guide, from memory (telecommunications and industries like Cervecería Nacional) and even in the signs they have on their trucks and pick-ups.

author: ivan747
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 01, 2013, 03:23:40 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on April 30, 2013, 11:16:07 pmUnless something like IndieGoGo works here, then no. We got literally a dozen relevant companies in our stock market.

author: chimerahitman
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 01, 2013, 04:45:16 pm
content: Nice to know this forum has people from here!!!Jobs, here, really depends who you know to get a good pay check. Getting above $600 is hard to get to it, but yeah it is a doable fee. Though most of my graduate contemporary friends have been struggling to get a job at all. The ones who have succeeded haven't found it in the electronics area and the pay has generally been just below $500 for the lucky ones and around $365.Well, to give the thread some conclusion, I have decided that getting a job and doing side jobs would be the best solution. Burning the midnight oil while I can.Thank you all for your time. Have helped me make up my mind.Btw, AWESOME Dave actually commented on my thread. YAY, a happy fan.

author: ivan747
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 01, 2013, 06:19:09 pm
content: Quote from: chimerahitman on May 01, 2013, 04:45:16 pmThat doesn't sound like what they tell you before enrolling collegeI would be surprised if I found myself having a job where I have to layout a 4 layer PCB for a product. Electronics in general isn't very developed let alone electronic design. Makes me wonder if that's why a lot of people choose mechatronics over electronics and industrial engineering over any other engineering. Civil engineering is another thing on it's own for me. All countries need civil engineers and if you get hooked up into politics here you can get to build expensive stuff; just look at our metro subway, Diandino must have got trucks and trucks of cash with that

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 01, 2013, 06:35:51 pm
content: My impression is that people with EE degrees may become economic migrants to the USA where they will develop their career, then maybe return home to start businesses of their own later on?

author: ivan747
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 02, 2013, 06:33:37 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on May 01, 2013, 06:35:51 pmOftentimes, yes. But most just stay instead of boosting our national economy and being a plague for nationalists in the country they chose to move to.

author: chimerahitman
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 03, 2013, 02:44:49 am
content: Update.Didn't get formally interviewed by human resources, so job isn't secure. Got interviewed by the boss/director. From what I understood I will be in charge of designing test jigs for production line PCBs. :O!Never thought about that field of work, but sounds very interesting.

author: ivan747
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 03, 2013, 03:01:44 am
content: Quote from: chimerahitman on May 03, 2013, 02:44:49 amGo and get that job, it must be awesome!And don't forget to tell us how it goes. If you show them a project of yours, tell me how they reacted.

author: chimerahitman
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 03, 2013, 05:27:19 am
content: I didn't have finished projects on hand, but did have a few unpopulated PCBs. Their reaction was rather positive. Wasn't something out of this world but they probably liked that I already had seen some PCB action.With no doubt, the blank PCBs helped me a lot.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 03, 2013, 05:31:59 am
content: Quote from: chimerahitman on May 03, 2013, 02:44:49 amYes, take it!Production engineering and custom test jig design can teach you a lot.I spent a good part of my career doing this.