The eternal question: which scope should I buy? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: CharlieWorton
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2017, 11:29:13 am
content: So I'm trying to figure out what scope I should buy. The Rigol DS1054Z really is the absolute limit of my budget - I'm stretching to reach that far. It clocks in at $600 Canadian delivered.The other two scopes on my list are the Hantek DSO5202P and the Siglent SDS1202X-E. They both run at 200Mhz, which is double that of the unlocked Rigol. But they only have 2 channels as opposed to the 4 on the Rigol, and the Rigol has the better display - 8" at 800X600, as opposed to 7" at 800X480 on the Hantek and Siglent. The Siglent is only about $40 cheaper than the Rigol, so price isn't a real deciding factor; and I think the Rigol and the Siglent have similar memory sizes. The Hantek I have sorta eliminated from my list; it has an almost non existent 40K of memory. I don't know what you can capture with that, but I'm sure it isn't much. Its big attraction is the price; I can land it for $400 in Canada.I have hopes that the math functions on the Siglent will allow better FFT performance than the atrocious FFT results turned in by the Rigol that Dave exposed a few videos back. Looking forward to his testing that.Compounding my dilemma is the fact that I'm new enough to electronics to be unsure which direction I will go. I expect a fair bit of digital communications stuff, and stuff centered around Arduino applications -but really, I don't know what I'll be doing a year from now.So, any thoughts on which scope might prove more generally useful? Are more than 2 scope inputs often necessary? Are there any other scopes in my price range I should consider?Thanks, all - Charlie

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2017, 12:04:35 pm
content: Welcome to the forum.Quote from: CharlieWorton on June 13, 2017, 11:29:13 amIt does.https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-siglent-sds1000x-e-oscilloscope-based-on-xilinx-zynq-7000-soc-architecture/msg1192654/#msg1192654Here's a couple of vids from member Defpom:

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2017, 03:41:59 pm
content: The best choice depends greatly on the purpose. I use 4 channels more often than FFT. And in the same pricerange there is also the GW Instek GDS1054B which has 4 channels and long FFT but a lower bandwidth and no protocol decoding.

author: schmitt trigger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2017, 03:57:38 pm
content: I agree with the post above. It is usually more useful to have more channels than a good FFT.Also, for a beginner, 100 Mhz should be plenty, unless you are delving in high speed busses.Lastly....once that one uses a scope with a clear, large screen, it becomes addictive! It allows you to display large amounts of informationsimultaneously.But in the end, each individual has its own set of needs and budgets. I'm sure other posters will have different opinions than mine.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2017, 04:02:00 pm
content: Quote from: CharlieWorton on June 13, 2017, 11:29:13 amRigol has improved the FFT a LOT since Dave's video.Is it as good as the Siglent? I haven't seen the two side by side but I suspect the Siglent will probably win.(anybody able to do a video?)Remember that the FFT on low-end scopes is crippled by having an 8-bit ADC (including the Siglent).Audio-frequency FFTs can be done much better by a PC sound card input than on a 'scope.Quote from: CharlieWorton on June 13, 2017, 11:29:13 amDepends on what you do, but 2 isn't very many.Quote from: CharlieWorton on June 13, 2017, 11:29:13 amNothing that meets your next requirement...Quote from: CharlieWorton on June 13, 2017, 11:29:13 amI'd definitely go for 4 channels if that's where you're headed.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2017, 04:57:36 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on June 13, 2017, 12:04:35 pmIt's faster, sure, but is it muchbetterthan a Rigol with latest firmware.Anybody able to do screenshots?

author: BMCha
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: June 13, 2017, 05:32:27 pm
content: I've also been trying to decide on a scope. For my uses I know I want four channels, so I was looking at the Rigol 1054Z and the aforementioned GW Instek 1054B. More recently I came across the Micsig tablet scopes. Certainly a different design, having no rotary encoders or physical buttons, but reading around the forum it seems to be a decent performer.Checking Amazon Canada it looks like the batteryless model fits your budget at 540 CAD:https://www.amazon.ca/Micsig-Oscilloscope-Amercian-Speciall-Optional/dp/B01N5S7WR4/ref=sr_1_fkmr0_1_m?ie=UTF8&qid=1497375202&sr=8-1-fkmr0&keywords=to1104%2Bnorth%2Bamerican&th=1Once again I'm in the same boat as you and so I can't really compare the three, but I thought I'd mention this option and hope that some other community members that have actually used these scopes can chime in.EDIT: Didn't want to clutter up the thread, but for future readers, in reply to the below post:It looks like the Amazon link above is indeed the full 28 MPts version (i.e. not the cut-down "M" version). There appears to be a special discounted version for USA/Canada/Mexico. As far as I can tell the only difference other than the price is that the fully-loaded "Option 2" does not include the screen protector or the carry bag of the international "Option 3".The corresponding AliExpress page for the amazon link ishttps://www.aliexpress.com/store/product/Digital-Tablet-Oscilloscope-TO1104-100MHz-4CH-28Mpts-oscilloscopes-Automotive-diagnostic-USA-CANADA-MEXICO-Special-Offer-scopes/1293611_32791915984.html?spm=2114.12010612.0.0.nodrYy

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2017, 06:29:14 pm
content: I wasn't aware Micsig still had scopes on sale for this price level but AFAIK the ones on Amazon have shorter memory (M versions). I have a TO1104 myself and it is a nice scope to use. Because it uses an 8" 4:3 screen it has an effectively bigger screen than a 800x480 8" screen.

author: CharlieWorton
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2017, 06:38:38 pm
content: I'm pleased to learn that the Rigol has improved their FFT performance. Daves video was actually scary.I see that the Rigol has protocol decoding available, for around $180 USD. Anybody know if this is a separate piece of hardware, or a software addon?Based on the input from this topic, I'm kinda switching back towards the Rigol. Sounds like 4 channels is more important than high bandwidth. And I agree, a bigger, higher res screen is always better. If Rigol really wanted to up their game, they'd make those menu entries on the right disappear with a button press. Bet they do it on a higher end scope, if they haven't already done so.The MicSig scopes look ideal for on site testing, but I want a bench scope. Still, it's an interesting product.So now I've got scope lust with a passion. Have to go count pennies again.Just to be certain... is there something like a Rigol with a 200Mhz bandwidth with a price tag this side of God? 'Cause I think I'm getting close to a buy point, and I'd be kicking myself if I coulda added another 100Mhz for an extra $200.You guys are just fantastic. Don't know how I limped through life this long without this forum. Thanks.>Charlie

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2017, 06:43:37 pm
content: Quote from: CharlieWorton on June 13, 2017, 06:38:38 pmWhy would the Micsig scope not be usefull as a bench scope? It has a stand and it is perfectly useable as a bench scope! Actually due to the absence of knobs it takes less space.BTW: you are aware you are supposed to hack the Rigol DS1054Z? If you are going to pay for the options (=spend more money) then there are alternatives which offer much better value for money.

author: technogeeky
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2017, 09:58:36 pm
content: Quote from: CharlieWorton on June 13, 2017, 11:29:13 amThe FFT limitationsof the Rigol 1054z as posted in the videos areno longera limitation. For one, there is a "Memory" mode which uses all of the sample memory (and not just the trace on the screen) to compute the FFT. This results in ahugeimprovement in FFT capability.If that's not enough, then one can use PC software to download and run the FFT on a computer; you can do much more intense calculations there.I don't know anything about the FFT of the Siglent or Hantek, but the Rigol is probably not far behind (if at all).

author: technogeeky
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2017, 10:16:39 pm
content: Quote from: CharlieWorton on June 13, 2017, 06:38:38 pmAll software options are software-enabled through the hack that basically everybody uses. The only hardware differences are:unit has signal generator outputunit has logic analyzer digital signal inputI don't recommend getting either of these options. Both options are much more expensive than if purchased using equivalent (or probably better) separate equipment. For the logic analyzer, there are excellent8 channeland16 channeloptions available for about 5-10 and 40-60 USD respectively. Yes, this will not give you time correlation to the analog oscilloscope inputs; but you can always get this manually with some effort. You can also sacrifice one analog channel to record one of the digital channels on the LA as a sync input.As for the function generator, there are a ton of options here. You can get a very similar function generator for about $50 to $100, and one that goes higher in frequency for about $100 to $150. Unlike with the logic analyzer, there is no obvious benefit to integrating this into the oscilloscope. There are some subtle benefits:It is easy to add a waveform to the arbitrary waveform library directly from a measured signal (though this is possible to do with other siggens via manual download and upload)It is easy to trigger off of the signal generator, which may require an extra wire with an external oneOn this basis (and some other omitted facts) I suggest getting the base 1054z and software hacking it.

author: TheSteve
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 13, 2017, 10:43:45 pm
content: Where in Canada are you located, I might know someone selling a ds1054z if you're interested.

author: CharlieWorton
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2017, 11:31:28 pm
content: Hey, TheSteve - I'm in Edmonton, Alberta. But I think I'd like to purchase brand new, if possible. May not be possible, but new is the goal.I took another hard, long look at the MicSig scope. I agree that it could be used as a bench scope. I wish they hadn't used a gaudy blue case; it looks less like a scope, and more like a Fisher Price toy.But appearances can be deceiving - something I wound up telling many girls on our first date. (They later assured me that, in my case, they were not).Are there any advantages to the MicSig scope? Anything it does that the Rigol doesn't?Apparently, ElectroMeters has a sales office in Canada, and charges $20 less than the Amazon price. So, $20 saved... well, is $20 saved. I've sent them an email, asking if they have educational discounts. We'll see.Thanks, all - Charlie

author: Geoff_S
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2017, 12:51:41 am
content: Quote from: CharlieWorton on June 13, 2017, 11:29:13 amMy recommendation - forget a scope for the time being, and get a cheap logic analyser. You'll find it far more useful for debugging digital comms stuff and Arduino. You can get a Salaea clone for very little dollars - use it for a while, learn what it does, then if you want, for about $200 you can get a real Salaea that includes analog inputs as well as digital inputs (for the rare times where you might need to troubleshoot problems like digital signals which are changing slowly, floating inputs, pullups which are too weak etc).

author: TheSteve
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 14, 2017, 01:01:41 am
content: I think you'll have a blast with the DS1054Z if you do decide to get one, they are a great little scope. Having 4 channels has come in handy many times for me and I wouldn't consider a scope with less.

author: TK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2017, 01:34:57 am
content: Quote from: Geoff_S on June 14, 2017, 12:51:41 amThe new saleae, even when it has analog input, it is a 100% trigger based instrument, very static. It captures certain amount of data, then shows it on the screen until you ask it to do the next capture, and so on. It is not a "real" oscilloscope.

author: Geoff_S
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2017, 02:45:57 am
content: Quote from: TK on June 14, 2017, 01:34:57 amYep, I know (I have both a DS1054Z and a Salaea and use them both), but that's my point. For someone dealing with arduino's and digital comms, a logic analyser (even one with a limited capture) is likely to be far more useful. I reach for my Salaea about 20 times more often than the Rigol scope. But it obviously comes down to the OP's actual requirements...

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2017, 06:19:21 am
content: Quote from: CharlieWorton on June 13, 2017, 06:38:38 pmSoftware. You can unlock it using a well-known website.Quote from: CharlieWorton on June 13, 2017, 06:38:38 pmNo. You either give up 2 channels (Siglent) or a load of features (GW-Instek).

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2017, 06:22:08 am
content: Quote from: CharlieWorton on June 13, 2017, 11:31:28 pmI like the blue case. Otherwise all equipment would be boring beige boxes. Anyway, it seems the one on Amazon from the link above is the same I have (TO1104). I have not used the Rigol DS1054Z but I think the user interface will be way quicker on TO1104. Also the TO1104 should receive a protocol decoding update. I have a beta version on mine and it can decode two different protocols at the same time. The TO1104 has input filtering which can be handy to have, the FFT is slightly longer, battery operation is nice so it can do without a power cord and it has a function to record to video. I wrote a review a while ago:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/micsig-to1104-(similar-to-rigol-1104z)/msg1196293/#msg1196293BTW I don't agree with the suggestion to only buy a logic analyser. In many cases problems are caused by a distorted signal. A logic analyser won't show that but an oscilloscope does.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 14, 2017, 06:32:36 am
content: Quote from: CharlieWorton on June 13, 2017, 11:29:13 amYep, avoid any scope without at least memory in the M sample range.

author: Fred27
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 14, 2017, 08:34:35 am
content: I'd second the suggestion of getting a logic analyser now and a scope a little bit later. By the time you find you need a scope you will have a clearer idea of what you actually need and what you don't. You'll know what a logic analyser is perfect for and it's limitations. As nctnico pointed out, a logic analyser is great if you're interested in the data in a signal, but gives you no clue to the "quality" of those apparently perfect 1s and 0s.Plus, things are always getting better and cheaper and a local second hand bargain might appear whilst you're waiting.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2017, 09:01:10 am
content: Quote from: Fred27 on June 14, 2017, 08:34:35 amNO NO NO NO! I've seen people struggle for weeks trying to find a problem with a logic analyser and fail. An oscilloscope shows the problem immediately. After a DMM an oscilloscope is the next piece of test equipment you need.

author: Fred27
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 14, 2017, 09:15:48 am
content: I don't disagree with you on the strengths and weaknesses of each, I'm just considering the OP's situation. The key things are "on a budget", "just starting out" and "Arduino". He's more likely to be inspecting serial comms on a prebuilt board. Far more working out the basics of what's going on that any subtle signal quality issues. A scope is indeed a better tool, but is the expense worth it right now?I'm sure the OP can consider both sides and decide for himself what his priorities are. I'm guessing that if he's asking about scopes then the gadget lust has probably taken hold anyway!

author: TK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2017, 11:19:47 am
content: I also started with a logic analyzer before getting a scope. They are different instruments and both are very pleasant to use if you come from having nothing before. If your background is more software than EE, you will find the logic analyzer easier to learn than a scope. The learning curve is not universal for any instrument, it depends on your background.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2017, 11:54:03 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on June 14, 2017, 09:01:10 amA logic analyzer is for when the comms are working and you want to look at the packets of data to find protocol bugs.The scope is for when the comms is failing and you don't know why.

author: Gandalf_Sr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2017, 12:05:44 pm
content: Quote from: Fred27 on June 14, 2017, 09:15:48 amI have comments on the protocol analyzer on the scope vs a dedicated logic analyzer. Obviously the scope can see the waveforms but the sub-$1,000 scopes are all software decoders which makes them fairly slow. You can get scopes with hardware decoding built in such as the (now obsolete) Agilent MSO7104B but they are expensive - I own a Rigol MSO2072A with software decoding and it's sloooowwww to the point of being unusable. There's a poorly documented but powerful and cheapBus Piratethat can show actual traffic on I2C and SPI busses which I highly recommend or you can spend maybe $150 for a reasonable logic analyzer.In short, scopes are good to look at waveforms, analyzers are good to read the actual traffic contents.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2017, 12:14:45 pm
content: Quote from: Gandalf_Sr on June 14, 2017, 12:05:44 pmBus Pirate is expensive. Most people use the$6 devicesfrom eBay with a copy ofsigrok.nb. I'm not saying Bus Pirate is worthless, it can do a lot more things than a logic analyzer. If all you want is a logic analyzer though, get the $6 gadget.

author: Gandalf_Sr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2017, 02:07:24 pm
content: Thanks Fungus, I just ordered from eBay, one ofthose $6 units fromChina, I was unaware that Sigrok existed until now. Is there a thread on this device anywhere on eevblog?

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2017, 03:23:17 pm
content: Quote from: Gandalf_Sr on June 14, 2017, 02:07:24 pmThey've been mentioned a couple of times.There's not really much to know. It's a small black box (literally and figuratively) that connects between your digital logic device and your PC software (eg. Sigrok). Bandwidth is enough for Arduino work.

author: CharlieWorton
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2017, 03:56:34 pm
content: Well, the die is cast!I had a chat with Electro-meters, who are the Canadian distributors for Rigol. They offered me a 5% educational discount, free shipping, and a 3 year warranty. With tax, it's coming in at $525.00 as opposed to Amazon, who were coming in at $583.00. So, a total savings of $58. Not bad!So, I've purchased the Rigol. They're going to ship today, and I should have it early next week. I expect the 3 year warranty will vaporize when I upgrade the machine to 100Mhz, but that was always going to be the case no matter where I bought it from.By the way, they didn't ask for my student ID # or any other supporting documentation. They simply accepted my word. That was refreshing.So now, I'm all excited. I'm a Rigol fan boy club member now. Gotta get way deep into the literature and the mystique.Anybody know if I will need to apply a system update? Or are they shipping them with the latest version?Oooooh, so excited. Hope this works!Later, all - Charlie

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2017, 04:07:25 pm
content: Quote from: CharlieWorton on June 14, 2017, 03:56:34 pmNo worries. You can easily remove the upgrade, nobody will know.

author: TK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2017, 04:28:42 pm
content: Quote from: Gandalf_Sr on June 14, 2017, 12:05:44 pmI am certain the Keysight 1000X scope has hardware decoders implemented on the ASIC IV

author: TK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2017, 04:31:29 pm
content: Quote from: CharlieWorton on June 14, 2017, 03:56:34 pmAFAIK the Rigol hack can be uninstalled issuing SCPI commands, so warranty will be intact. Just uninstall the hack before shipping back to Rigol

author: schmitt trigger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2017, 05:07:07 pm
content: Quote from: CharlieWorton on June 14, 2017, 03:56:34 pmCongrats!You'll love it.The good thing about a scope, is that it has variable vertical ranges. You'll be able to see from about 2mV/div to 200V/div (with the proper probe settings). In other words, you may troubleshoot power supplies, sound cards, sensors and that kind of stuff.

author: pascal_sweden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2017, 05:59:19 pm
content: Quote from: TK on June 14, 2017, 04:28:42 pmWhat about the new Siglent SDS1202X-E? Isn't the decoding there also done in hardware?Note that there is a major probe compensation drift issue on the Keysight 1000X scope.This issue has been reported more than 5 weeks ago, and Keysight still has no resolution or mitigation plan in place. In fact I believe they even have dropped the investigation completely.

author: TK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2017, 07:12:07 pm
content: Quote from: pascal_sweden on June 14, 2017, 05:59:19 pmI think SDS1202X-E decode is done by software on the Zynq CPU.Can you post a proof of the MAJOR probe compensation drift issue? Have you experienced it yourself? I have the EDU 1000X scope and it is not an issue for me.