Rigol equoipment; has anyone heard of a higher failure rate than other brands?? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: videobruce
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2014, 10:39:20 am
content: Before someone blasts me, this isn't meant to discredit Rigol, or anyone else. I'm just looking for units with problems.I talked with a dealer of this brand and others and was told Rigol has had a very high failure rate. The term "broken" was used. No specific model, but he was apparently referring to their lower end oscilloscopes when he mentioned price (a few hundred dollars). A number of these were purchased for a college and after a couple of years they had to be replaced with Agilent scopes due to the failure rate.So the question, has anyone seen and/or heard of a higher than usual failure rate for Rigol products?

author: idpromnut
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 22, 2014, 11:11:00 am
content: I would be curious to know if the Agilent scopes also had a high failure rate at this college. That's a pretty harsh environment to have test gear in. If this dealer was referring to the DS1052E and the various lower-end models, I think there would be more posts on this forum about failed Rigols if the failure rate were at all higher than the typical piece of test equipment. I have heard a few cases of knobs falling off/breaking (I'm not sure which series of scopes this was on however) but that is about the extent of what I recall seeing.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2014, 11:28:28 am
content: Quote from: videobruce on July 22, 2014, 10:39:20 ami suspect its broken encoders that need replacement. my rigol ds1052e still working but few encoders already been replaced.

author: videobruce
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2014, 11:41:19 pm
content: I'm trying to get the model number of the scope(s) involved. (This maybe exaggerated a bit since that dealership doesn't sell Rigol any more.)

author: all_repair
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2014, 11:57:58 pm
content: Many years Rigol function generator could not work too long continuosly in topical non-airconditioner environment. An observation of 5 sets Rigol. Agilent sets had no such issues. I can't remember the model number now.

author: saturation
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2014, 12:23:01 pm
content: I don't have stats but based on reports posted on this forum, its not anymore than other Chinese brand T&M.The key thing with new gear is the long term warranty and short term support from the seller i.e., no questions asked return within 2 weeks or so. After you buy it, make sure you do a thorough performance check, then a system 'burn in' to try to make it fail while under warranty. I do this with all gear, Rigol or not.Avoid v1.0 of products as they tend to be buggy, its worst for lesser branded gear such as Rigol; FWIW even big names like Agilent and Fluke are also affected but less so.

author: videobruce
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2014, 03:37:31 pm
content: A sorry state of affairs from the T&M industry.Isn't/wasn't Rigol the one who was OEM for a few of the big T&M names??A very wise practice to accelerate the 'break in' period.I wasn't told which scope other than it was a "single model scope" and other pieces of equipment. I guess it was a secret.With the change in Agilent T&M to Keysight Technologies, I wonder what additional cost cutting they have planned;http://www.agilent.com/about/companyinfo/company-separation.html

author: videobruce
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2014, 04:07:16 pm
content: Correction; they did not sell the line. (wires got crossed somewhere).The substitute Agilent scope is a DSOX3024A if that narrows down what Rigol it may have been.

author: Dave Turner
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2014, 07:02:00 pm
content: I smell a rat and I'm anosmic!

author: Nerull
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2014, 07:11:53 pm
content: Those scopes are in a completely different league than the 'few hundred $' rigols, with a price to match. That's quite an upsell, and a lot of money for the vendor...I suppose he also told them the half-the-price Agilent DSOX2000 series just wouldn't work either.

author: Fsck
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2014, 09:47:09 pm
content: err, exactly which environment in college?depending on where they were used, they could've had some seriously stupid things done to them.

author: videobruce
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2014, 12:45:02 am
content: I have no idea of the exact use or where it was. I'm sure there is something to it, but to what extent, I do not know. Using the term breaks or broken kinda leaves a lot to be desired. Sounds as a term used on Amazon product reviews.

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2014, 12:54:16 am
content: FWIW I never had a problem with my DS2000 and Dave gave his DS1052 to his kid Sagan as a Toy, and so far is surviving the abuse.So unless there is a non vague statement I don't see any validity on claims that Rigol equipment is sub par. So far for was it has been talked about in this forum, they are pretty solid other than one incident where a DS2000 FPGA retaining clip wasn't properly solder and so far with the rest of the Rigol products their customer support and replacing faulty design for customers that request the upgrade has been not speedy but they have follow through and get them fixed.

author: N2IXK
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2014, 01:11:18 am
content: I work for a university, and you wouldn't believe how rough students can be on equipment. Mostly "innocent" screwups and lots of normal wear and tear, but have seen more than a few cases of outright malicious damage.

author: videobruce
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2014, 10:14:29 am
content: N2IXK;Yes, I can imagine, including malicious damage. But, as long as they take care of their toy phones (idiot phones), all is well.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2014, 10:25:57 am
content: I've heard stories of soldering irons inserted into LCD screens.I'm glad those I sell have glass screens.

author: idpromnut
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 24, 2014, 02:29:10 pm
content: Heh, reminds me of a story my co-worker told me. He was working at a research lab at a university, and they had a lab with ~10 spectrum analyzers in it (posh place and well equipped. Apparently a student was trying to see the waveform of an AC signal riding on a fairly large DC signal, and couldn't understand why these "oscilloscopes" were not showing anything on the display. And of course, they tried every "scope" in the lab with the same results. 5k-10k per analyzer of repairs to all of their front ends later, the lab placed DC blocks on all of their SAs

author: mcinque
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 24, 2014, 07:40:19 pm
content: Quote from: idpromnut on July 24, 2014, 02:29:10 pmAre you kidding, right? Please, tell me you're kidding and that is not really happened. Please.

author: videobruce
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2014, 07:53:13 pm
content: Just who were "they"? the students and/or the instructor. I bet if it was about idiot phones they would of had an answer or at least not tried it.

author: idpromnut
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 25, 2014, 12:47:24 am
content: So far as my co-worker says, this did happen. And "they" was a masters student at the university.

author: Fsck
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2014, 04:18:58 am
content: Quote from: idpromnut on July 25, 2014, 12:47:24 amthere's a huge gap between theory and the real world

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2014, 05:42:28 am
content: QuoteAnd his/her degree wasn't stripped from them?In private enterprise they would be kicked out the door before they could wreck anything else.

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2014, 06:03:36 am
content: Quote from: tautech on July 25, 2014, 05:42:28 amNot really. Lots of people have made $100K or more mistakes and didn't get the boot. It's called training, why fire them after such an expensive lesson?

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2014, 07:24:32 am
content: Quote from: miguelvp on July 25, 2014, 06:03:36 amSo a MASTERS student is not expected to know the difference between a SA and a DSO?How many did he/she wreck?IMO inexcusable

author: Svuppe
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2014, 07:26:07 am
content: Quote from: Fsck on July 25, 2014, 04:18:58 amWhat is the old saying:In theory, there is no difference between theory and reality.In reality, there are differences between theory and reality.

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2014, 07:40:40 am
content: Quote from: tautech on July 25, 2014, 07:24:32 amTrue but then again the Master or Doctorates theorize and they get paid a lot to do so. I believe the count was 10 and repairs between $5K to $10K so one hundred thou.I agree, it's stupidity and ineptness, but many people even non Masters have screwed up $100K is some stupid mistake (not me... yet... knock on wood) But I don't have a Masters nor a PhD, but can I cause a problem worth $100K or more? Sure, I just hope that doesn't ever happen because I don't want to find out if they'll fire me or keep me.

author: KedasProbe
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2014, 09:12:01 am
content: I think that's a case of not training the person before they are allowed to use equipment.In other cases it could have been that the person was 'wrecked' and the equipment that was still ok.You don't put a person that can drive a car in a crane and say: try to drive over there between those two houses.Anyway about the subject:From the 3 Rigol devices (DG4000,DS4000,DM3068) I know of, the scope DS4000 failed on delivery and needed to be replaced.Haven't seen other failures except for all 3 devices they are a bit buggy and/or have wrong specs.

author: videobruce
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2014, 10:29:52 am
content: Maybe I should have this thread re-named to which manufacture/importer has the highest percentage of failures.I have been asking a few repair and calibration sites about a few major players on Spectrum Analyzers. I'm very surprised about the responses with some of the models which happens to be the ones I was looking at. Advantest & Anritsu seem to fair the worst. Lack of parts & support, harder to work on due to size (everything crammed together with the 'portable' models) for starters. The term "cheap" was even used.

author: anotherlin
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2014, 02:25:54 pm
content: Quote from: miguelvp on July 25, 2014, 06:03:36 amI've made that my signatureIs that ok for you ?

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2014, 05:34:30 pm
content: Fine by me.

author: anotherlin
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2014, 08:58:34 am
content: Thank you

author: KedasProbe
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2014, 09:11:07 am
content: Quote from: miguelvp on July 25, 2014, 06:03:36 amBecause some people need to be taught the same lesson twice

author: videobruce
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2014, 10:16:07 am
content: How about the multi billion mistake in 2008? From Bush all the way down little was done if anything other than a slap on the wrist.

author: CC58
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: July 29, 2014, 02:05:08 pm
content: Quote from: videobruce on July 22, 2014, 10:39:20 amI am leery of chinese manufactured ICs. Seen many chinese shortwave radios and ham radios "break" in short order. I decided to buy an old Tektronix TDS350 200mhz scope for $175 instead of a Rigol. My guess is the Tek will still work in five years, and the Rigol would be broke.

author: CC58
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: July 29, 2014, 02:12:45 pm
content: Quote from: idpromnut on July 25, 2014, 12:47:24 amA Field Engineer at my workplace stuck the leads of a Fluke VOM into AC socket with it set to measure current. Results were it blew the back of the meter off. He said with a straight face he was trying to measure the current of the outlet.

author: idpromnut
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 29, 2014, 02:39:47 pm
content: Quote from: CC58 on July 29, 2014, 02:12:45 pmOie… I know someone that was convinced they were measuring "Amps" used by a motor by probing the motor leadsWhat ensued was a rather lengthy explanation of Volts and Amps and in the end, nothing was learnt I am afraid

author: videobruce
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2014, 08:38:50 pm
content: I e-mailed Rigol about obtaining a service manual. Here is the reply.Quote.Is anyone aware of this situation??

author: Drirr
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 31, 2014, 06:30:42 am
content: Few years ago, I bought Rigol DS1102E. My decision was based on Daves review. I was so happy when it arrived.But after 3 months encoders worn out so it was useless. I had no time to send it somewhere and wait one month to fix it so I repaired encoders myself. Since then my rigol was repaired about five times (not only encoders). One last thing i fixed on my rigol was dry capacitors in power supply. Then I sold it.... with 1600 startups in 2 years.I have replaced it with tek DPO2002b. I know that everyone will be screaming at my why i did not buy Rigol again.Since i bought tek i had no problem with quality. No firmware lockups, no bugs, no quality issues and I am using it as hard as rigol. UI and front panel is much more friendly. Funny is that i paid same money for both scopes. Final use cost of rigol scope was much higher then tek scope because of screwed project whitch i did not finish in time.sorryfor hobbyist rigol may be okey

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 31, 2014, 05:15:01 pm
content: Quote from: Drirr on July 31, 2014, 06:30:42 amSo in short you replaced at what at that time was probably the cheapest low-end China scope on the market with a entry level sope from a big name Western manufacturer that costs more than 3 times as much, and wonder why the latter gives you less grief?

author: XFDDesign
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 31, 2014, 05:55:15 pm
content: Long ago (in the early 2000s), I was contracted to create FPGA Development boards for my University. The existing FPGA boards on the market were just crammed full of crap, which made for an unintuitive excursion to find "free" pins for doing logic exercises in the lab.Knowing that these would be abused by students, I had to come up with every possible route I could think of to damage these things. A few items of what I wound up determining:1. No matter what, use linear regulators. In the worst case, the things get hot and their internal shutdown takes over. (Failsafe) - Switchers had a tendancy to overshoot their target regulation voltage and destroy the FPGA.2. Anything that the students might touch, needed protection. All of the I/O had 330 ohm series resistors.3. Someone will eventually burn out the primary path for an important signal, put down alternates and backups.In the end, these boards were in service for six years, and only went into retirement because the software went obsolete/unsupported. Out of the 28 pc build, there were only two catastrophic/unsalvagable failures in that time- one of them was because a student couldn't locate the wall wart included with the unit, and just "hot wired" line voltage into the thing.PhDs and Masters degrees mean diddily when it comes to the "practical." This same Uni, had a PhD student-in-progress who decided to take some measurements with aVNAand couldn't figure out what the APC-7 connectors were. In his brilliance, because hey "I'm a PhD student, therefore I'm smart!" he decided tosolderan SMA connector onto these connectors. After he was reprimanded, all of the "expensive" gear was locked away into professors' labs and only accessible through obtaining permission and getting grilled on whether you know wtf you're doing or not.Is then comes as no surprise that the very bottom-barrel test gear by Rigol (or anyone else, really) disintegrates in the School setting. Many of these students approach an instrument like it were spaghetti being thrown to the wall to find out what sticks.

author: Drirr
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 31, 2014, 09:49:55 pm
content: @ Wuerstchenhund when i bought DS1102E it was not cheap at all, much more pricey then today.I bought DPO2002b for 850euroonly difference is time when i bought itNo, and I do not wonder that tek DPO is better, it is exactly what i expectedOnly thing I wonder is that this awesome rigol scope did not survive more then 3 months.

author: saturation
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 31, 2014, 11:00:01 pm
content: I do think Rigol uses poor quality rotatory encoders as its a common problem for this class DSO. I don't read of it as an issue for their other DSOs. My 1052e started acting funny several months after it was new in 2010 but it is still very workable.Agilent put out this document in late 2013. Agilent only compares its products against "big" T&M players so in many ways, its a testament to Rigol's reputation.http://cp.literature.agilent.com/litweb/pdf/5990-6738EN.pdfQuote from: Drirr on July 31, 2014, 09:49:55 pm

author: marshallh
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 31, 2014, 11:29:58 pm
content: My Rigol ds2072 was dead on arrival. It took 8 weeks to claim the warranty and end up with the working scope I should've had to begin with.Ended up selling it and using my lecroy instead.

author: Drirr
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2014, 12:06:34 am
content: by the way do anybody know why Rigol uses in DP832 these shitty samyoung KMG caps and putting them near overheating voltage regulators? I have tons of these from cheapest electronics. They usually last one year.

author: videobruce
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2014, 02:16:32 am
content: QuoteI guess that could be taken more than one way.I see it as Agilent is has gotten nervous due to the price difference cutting into their sales.Ok, how much of a price difference between both of these units?

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2014, 05:11:26 am
content: Quote from: Drirr on July 31, 2014, 09:49:55 pmYes, but at the same time the equivalent Tek entry-level scope would have probably cost you >2kEUR, because entry level scopes in general were much more expensive a few years ago. It's only in recent years that the prices have come down so much.

author: videobruce
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2014, 10:15:49 am
content: QuoteBut, so has quality. Apparently, the T&M market has taken the path of consumer electronics, down the tubes.

author: saturation
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2014, 12:35:39 pm
content: Quote from: videobruce on August 01, 2014, 02:16:32 amPremium is typically >1.5 cost over a similar performing Rigol, even more against the lesser players. But if the product doesn't work functionally or breaks easily, the savings is moot as Drirr suggests. Agilent doesn't have a comparison against Hantek, Siglent, Atten etc., because they don't consider them "players" in this sphere.http://www.home.agilent.com/en/pd-2115404-pn-DSO1052B/oscilloscope-50-mhz-2-channele.g. 1052e Rigol = $330 list, versus 1050B Agilent $520, they are ~ the same scope, both are made by Rigol.Quote from: videobruce on August 01, 2014, 10:15:49 amThis has been going on for some time. If you are looking at end user support you can align the manufacturers in order:Agilent, Tek, LeCroy, Rhode and SchwarzInstekRigolAtten, Siglent, HantekTo offset the low cost, you, the buyer, must be prepared to provide your own support far more than the better brands, including hardware repairs.That's one of the chief appeals of eevblog, folks come here for support they can't get from the manufacturer or to hack it.

author: Mark_O
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2014, 08:44:20 pm
content: Quote from: videobruce on August 01, 2014, 02:16:32 amWhat I found strange about that comparison is that in late 2013 Agilent would choose a Rigol scope from 2008/9 to compare against.

author: videobruce
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2014, 08:44:38 pm
content: Where would Advantest & Anritsu fit in?

author: saturation
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2014, 01:02:40 pm
content: The comparisons vs Agilent depend on the device, both brands are top rated in their field. For more comparisons just google search "Agilent versus X" and see the documents that pop up.http://cp.literature.agilent.com/litweb/pdf/5991-0341EN.pdfQuote from: videobruce on August 01, 2014, 08:44:38 pm

author: saturation
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2014, 01:28:48 pm
content: Again, its Agilent's perception of what the main competition for their similar product is. That Rigol model was likely available when they wrote that document; its now discontinued and the new replacement is even more competitive against Agilent:http://www.rigolna.com/products/digital-oscilloscopes/ds1000ca/However, here is a recent forum post about an Agilent product glitch and the repair experience:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/agilent-2000x-has-lost-a-channel/msg489423/?topicseen#msg489423That's what you'd like with warranty service from anyone.Quote from: Mark_O on August 01, 2014, 08:44:20 pm

author: videobruce
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2014, 01:48:50 pm
content: saturation;I was referring to your 'list' as far as Advantest & Anritsu would be placed. I'm really not interested in what Agilent would give for a trade in allowance.

author: saturation
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2014, 05:14:09 pm
content: They are top tier makers, as with Agilent, Tek, LeCroy etc. but they have more focused products such as communications and semiconductor manufacturing. I don't know them as well. They are about 4-5000 employees [ about half of Agilent's T&M division] and have been around since before 1960, they are more on the level as Tek, LeCroy, Fluke, R&S.Quote from: videobruce on August 02, 2014, 01:48:50 pm

author: videobruce
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 04, 2014, 10:37:29 am
content: Really doesn't matter how good or popular a line is abroad, if there is little or no US based support, it's a moot point.Almost anyone can import a line into another country, but apparently it's up to the importer to support it and most seem not to. At least sufficiently.I'm surprised GW Instek isn't more popular in the US given they appear to be in the same price range and business model (as far as pricing) as Rigol.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2014, 05:34:19 am
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on August 04, 2014, 09:37:23 amThis is certainly not only for historic reasons. That Yokogawa scopes are less popular has more to do with the fact that Yokogawa only has two scope models (DM2000 and DM4000, both MSOs), of which one (DM4000) is a 8 ch scope which is only really useful for some niche cases. None of their scopes go beyond 500MHz or 2.5GS/s which puts them in the area of entry-level or lower midrange models from other manufacturers. And both scopes are generally pretty expensive, as are any of the few available options.Yokogawa makes predominantly multi-channel logging kit with low sample rates, of which it sells quite a lot world-wide.Scopes don't seem to be their core business.

author: microe
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 11, 2014, 02:40:42 am
content: Quote from: XFDDesign on July 31, 2014, 05:55:15 pmMaybe you should let me be your Masters student. I ensure not to broke your oscilloscope.

author: schopi68
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2014, 08:58:24 am
content: As Rigol seems to focus more and more into the professional markets (i think they are still placed in the hobbyist/semiprofessional markets), i would expect they're rising their product quality. So i think we should always keep the date of the product development in mind.It could be a little bit like japanese cars in the 80s: It was well known that they were always broken and already rusty on delivery - but they worked on it and in the meanwhile they are better than some of the elder competitors.Maybe it's the same with Rigol.(But i am not sure if this is really the case. I Just bought an DG1062z AWF. Out of the package it delivered a clipped signal with a much to high amplitude on one channel at the moment i switched it to 50 Ohms.So replaced. The replacement unit was far out of spec in its frequency accuracy (>10ppm instead of 1 ppm). Adjustment was impossible, so it had to be replaced too.Yesterday the new unit arrived, this time everything seems to be in spec. But i'll wait until i have done some burn in until i open my crossed fingers.Two out of three devices with defect on arrival. One of the defects wouldn't be recognized by about 90% of the typical users.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2014, 10:19:05 am
content: Quote from: schopi68 on August 13, 2014, 08:58:24 amFar too much test equipment has problems on delivery, whichever make it is. A lot of it isn't too reliable either. That hasn't stopped people like Tektronix being considered very much professional equipment makers. The amazing thing is the long service life much of this stuff has, despite its problems.I think being considered professional in test equipment has more to do with having big defence customers. :-) [for youngster viewers: try looking up the fate of high end test equipment makers during big downturns in defence spending, and you might see what I mean by that]