The ultimate question - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Ampera
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 15, 2016, 03:36:41 am
content: I am 14 and I am starting to take a few college courses. I just finished Algebra and Trigonometry as a course and have registered for precalc for fall semester. Going into these clases (And to use in regular homeschooling) I was introduced into the world of advanced computerized calculators. My mom bought a Ti-83 plus calculator to use. They are the most popular calculator in the world and are insisted for use on almost every test and math class. I didn't try it at first though as my dad had an HP48G. I picked the thing up and had no clue how to use it until I just started pushing buttons and figuring things out.Long story short the HP calculator grew on me, and I began to wonder why the brand new Ti calculator was so horrible. The HP48G had RS232 and IR communications, it could be programmed using more complicated languages then the Ti-83. Later on I found out about the whole deal with the calculator market and why Ti sold 5 dollar crap for 120 bucks. It was stupid why spend 120 dollars on something I could probably make myself as it's so poor. The 48G was better in every single way possible AND was mod friendly. What gave?Present day I love HP calculators. I own the 50G and my dad (Who never touched the damn thing save for one class) practically gave me the 48G. They are great calculators and RPN is SO much faster then Algebra. It's like learning how to type versus tapping each key one by one. The 50G was faster, cheaper (I got it for 45 bucks, probably might be a couple left on amazon), supported up to 1 GB in SD card storage, had an ARM processor, a more intuitive and efficient operating system, and more.(This is the point where the life story ends and the reason I am making this post exists)HP or Ti (There are others but I have never seen a Sharp or Casio)Which one do you use and furthermore aside from the recognition name a reason that Ti has the better calculator.My opinion stands that they don't, and that HP out classes them in EVERY single way shape and form. HP has made the better calculator for DECADES, and RPN is the BEST thing to use.It might sound a bit fanboy diehardy, but I am serious when I say that Ti has no reason to be in business aside from the fact that they cornered the market through clever tactics.I feel bad for HP because they are the one nobody has heard about and they are the calculator that I use when programming and in my studies. They are the calculator that I want to use daily for any task.So respond with your opinion, and feel free to say anything. I just want to know if anyone has realized this, and what people's thoughts are.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 15, 2016, 03:44:28 am
content: It is many years since I ever pushed a button on a calculator. They are, for the most part, a relic from a bygone age. I spend my working day in front of a computer and there is nothing I want to calculate that I can't do better on my computer screen. If I were out and about I would probably look for a phone app before I reached for a calculator.Long story short, calculators like the TI-83 are there for the education market. You will use one through college, then you will put it in a drawer and forget it.The HP calculators were very nice, but they find themselves in the modern world without a need any more.

author: Ampera
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 15, 2016, 03:46:33 am
content: I prefer a physical calculator. I don't own a phone and even if I did I still would not use it. Heck I have had a tablet with a 48G emulator RIGHT next to me and my calculators.I see your point and it honestly depresses me that people have abandoned good devices with specific purpose.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 15, 2016, 03:56:13 am
content: I understand where you are coming from, believe me. When I was 14 the year was 1976 and pocket calculators were magical devices. I used to drool over shop windows full of calculator displays, and we all compared our calculators at school for features and accuracy (there were many brands back then and no two people had the same calculator). When new calculator models came out we used to read the reviews and see what new advances they had. I blew my whole savings on a TI-58 when it was first sold (it was about $500 in today's money). So I get it, I do.Unfortunately, times change, and you will probably find in time that your perspective changes too.

author: BradC
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 15, 2016, 04:10:43 am
content: I still have a number of stand-alone calculators, but to be honest if I want to calculate something away from my desk I use Pcalc on my iPad.At the desktop or laptop I tend to use bc, dc or (libreoffice calc if I have it open). For quick and dirty it's 'mate-calc'. Away from that its just the the RPN calc app on my iPad.At school I used whatever was the "approved" Casio calc at the time. Sure, I had a couple of Dad's old HP's, but once you got sick of explaining the limits to the programmability and how they met the "approval" requirements it was just easier to use one of the blessed models, and I stuck with that through school because I didn't want to get into an exam and have to think about how to use the damn thing because I was used to my RPN HP. I didn't seriously go back to RPN until I was in my mid 20's and starting to write compilers/interpreters. I'm now in my 40's and still reach for an RPN calc. I just don't use the hardware anymore.Everyone works differently, and I know my wife has been at my iPad when I find the calculator switched out of RPN mode. There is no right answer for everyone, just something that works for you. Oh, and don't expect your teachers of examiners to understand. They are too busy dealing with the dregs of the system to get involved in your choice of mathematical augmentation device.

author: Tomorokoshi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 15, 2016, 04:26:04 am
content: Given the sentiment that calculators are out of place in these modern times, and that math is an interest of yours, for the fun of it get a copy of what the calculators displaced - a slide rule. Get a fancy one with all the log and trig functions.

author: rrinker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 15, 2016, 05:27:11 am
content: I wish I could find it, I found among the treasures in the house a slide rule, not a full featured one, but it did the basics, and it had a little sheet carefully folded to fit in the case with it which explained how to use it. Always one for an intellectual challenge, I taught myself to use it by following the instructions. Where it's gotten to now I have no idea, nor do I readily recall how to use one.Physical calculators, I have none, my last one was the great Casio engineering one I used in college and right up until my then 2 or 3 year old 'hid' it by putting in a table lamp, sitting on top of the bulb. Which promptly melted through the case, which was half the buttons, before I noticed it in there (by the smell of melting plastic). Back in the day I lusted after the TI-59 and TI-58. I did end up with a TI-57 in high school - another one I wish I could find, I still have the manual that came with it, and even the charger, but not the actual calculator. Since as things went, I didn't end up working as an EE much after graduation, I don't do many complex calculations, and just use the calculator in Windows, or one my phone if I'm not at a computer. Having all that math background that goes with an EE degree, I do most basic math in my head. Contrast to my GF, who is always asking me things like "If I did 8 hours on Monday, and 9 hours on Tuesday, and 6 hours on Wednesday, how much is that?" and always keeps a physical calculator on her desk to add up numbers.TI pretty much has a lock on schools. I don't know if they still have this stuff, but my ex wife is a 6th grade math and science teacher, and she used to have classroom sets of TI calculators plus a special clear teacher model to put on an overhead projector and project the display on the screen. In higher grades they had TI-30's. But after my TI-57, I had a brief fling with the TRS-80 pocket computers, and then went to the Casio engineering models, my first one was the Radio Shack version of one of them, then I replaced that with the one that got melted, which had all sorts of physical constants stored plus did number base conversions for programming and basic logic. Which also brings up another point, since my first computer was a single board system that you programmed directly in hex, I learned the conversion between hex and decimal quite well and usually do conversions in my head with hex, decimal, and binary. Since I didn't learn on an 8080, my octal is pretty weak. Most kids these days seem to have a lot of trouble with base conversions, it's just not something there is much need for until you start poking around the innards of microcontrollers and similar programmable devices. It's a different world when you've always had computers and smartphones. Us old-timers remember that stuff first appearing - I was 14 when I built my first computer. There were others available, but nothing I could afford.So to return to the subject, it's not so much that TI had better calculators, it's that they supplied heavily to the education market (see the part about the classroom calculators). HP and RPN always ere somewhat of a specialty device not commonly seen outside of professional engineering (and sometimes business) applications. I did learn to use an RPN calculator as self defense, as most of my college professors had the 48C or some variant, and were all too happy to loan it to you if yours went dead in the middle of an exam. But since most has TI's, they were totally lost on how to use the HP. I never had to, my Casio never let me down. HPs were also a lot more expensive. And a true algebraic calculator, not a simple 4 banger type, is usually easier for most people compared to learning RPN - you can just key in the equation as printed and be confident the order of operations will be followed. No thinking.

author: JacquesBBB
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 15, 2016, 08:42:03 am
content: I have a hp32s that I bought 30 years ago. It was perfect at the time. It still is. Already I knew it was useless to have complex programming functions as for this computers are much moreUsable. But for small operations, despite I stand most of the time in front of a computer,I grab the hp32s.Also the batteries last forever, several years.

author: MrSlack
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 15, 2016, 09:10:03 am
content: I promised I'd not get myself into a calculator religious war - oh well. Excuse the length but I think this is a valid criticism of HP calculators.Some history of my experience with calculators...At school I had an old Casio FX-100D. This lasted several years and I genuinely had no problems with it.Then I did A-levels which demanded something slightly less crap so I got a then very new TI-81. I managed to make a few quid selling a betting game I wrote for it around my school that allowed you to race horses using the terrible pseudo-random number generator in it. Then I sold a tip that allowed you to pre-seed the RNG so you could predict who would win.Then I hit unversity which is where the problems started. Thanks to the student loan back then I could afford an HP48G, so I bought one and spent weeks learning about how it worked. This was to the detriment of my studies unfortunately so I managed to flunk the first semester's mathematics course. The learning curve was large. I did the whole course again myself over the next month.On the second year, it failed. Completely. Just didn't turn on. So in a panic, and with very little cash, I hit the local shops and found a Casio 9700G and bought it because you can't just turn up in a shop in the UK and buy an HP calculator. HP sent a replacement unit out but it took 4 weeks. By then I'd decided to stick with the Casio because I'd adjusted to algebraic notation again. Sold the replacement HP48 to another student and blew the left over cash on another unit as a spare.So I managed to stick with this one until about 1997 when I bought a 9750G on sale one day for £50.Going forwards a few years I turned into a calculator and mathematics geek from about 2000-2009 while I was workign through Feynman Lectures on Physics. During this phase I had about 100x TI83's (see later), TI Nspire, TI Nspire CAS, TI89, TI92, HP41CX, HP50G, HP49G and piles of lesser programmable Casios. The large quantity of TI83's was due to the fact I found out that at the end of the school year you could bag a TI83 for £5-8 on eBay due to market saturation and then sell them again at the start of the year for £40 a go making a large pile of cash. I hate the TI83 though, primarily due to the studpid shifted exponent.However this was all empty and soul-less. The pinnacle, the HP 50g was slow, obtuse, bug ridden and complicated and nothing but a repetitive eye poking. The NSpire was horrible to use, the TI92 large and tried to kill you, the TI89 invonvenient and nothing more. The worst was the HP41CX, which was like peering into the soul of a basic state machine all day. Plus all of them were chock full of bugs an oddities. So I sold the lot and used the calculator built into my Mac at the time which was quite good.Plus I found no high end calculator solved a single problem that couldn't be solved with a pencil, paper and understanding. You just need something to plug in the values of what you've worked out later. Be the CAS, don't buy oneYou don't need graphing; just a screen big enough to see the last thing you entered.So poking around in some drawers a couple of years back I found my old Casio 9750G. I put some new batteries in it. It still works. Within 10 minutes I'd worked out all the primary functions again. I just picked it up now. It still works. Within 10 minutes I'd worked out all the functions again. I just looked on Amazon and found I can get exactly the same device with some turd polish nearly 20 years later.That's what I found to be valuable: reliability, simplicity and fungibility. Unlike HP. Unlike TI. Casio you won for me.

author: VK3DRB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 15, 2016, 12:36:05 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on May 15, 2016, 03:44:28 amI really dislike using Windows calculators. They are the last resort, sort of like "limp home mode" is a car. A conventional tactile calculator is far easier to use than anything Billy Gates can conjure up. Using a mouse or bloated keyboard just does not cut it. Fatiguing and annoying.A brilliant calculator for your portable telephone is RealCalc. Check out the free version. It is so good, I bought it for a few $ to reward the author design and to get some extra features.Its true about calculators like the TI-83. After the exams, they end up in drawers pretty much.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 15, 2016, 01:50:44 pm
content: Quote from: VK3DRB on May 15, 2016, 12:36:05 pmSo do I. I use a keyboard driven algebraic calculator for basic things, I use Google for unit conversions, and I use Excel for more elaborate calculations.

author: Ampera
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 15, 2016, 04:11:40 pm
content: I like these opinons. Calculators I think do still have a use. They are specific devices that are good at what they do. These calculators have had around 40-50 years of development placed into them from the original four function calculators to the current HP Prime/Ti NSpire with CAS functions.I hope to keep and use my HP calculators for my life forward.The HP calculators for me weren't hard to figure out. I had to look up a few things, but other then that it was really easy, and I got results.I use calculators when calculating absolute positioning in java for games (Sorry real programmers, but this is the better way)I hate computer calculators because you have a limited selection of physical buttons. Any special functions you need to click, andclicking off buttons on a computer calculator is clunky and akward.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 15, 2016, 11:39:38 pm
content: I was always an RPN fan, simply because the order of keystrokes was always consistent. On some of the algebraic calculators doing functions like nth roots and so on it isn't as obvious what normal algebraic entry means. With newer calculators it doesn't matter much because the display shows clearly what the calculator did and you can easily correct before actually calculating. The deep stack and display also reduces some of the other RPN advantages.Back when calculator wars were a thing, Consumer Reports did one of their comparisons between HP and TI calculators (if I remember correctly it was the HP-45 and TI-59 being compared). One factor that stood out to me was their conclusion that the TI calculators were more reliable. This was based on their durability test which simulated being accidently knocked off of a file cabinet or desk onto a concrete floor. The much lighter TI-59 did far better in this test than the HP-45. At the plant where I worked there were literally hundreds of engineers, split fairly evenly between TI and HP. In actual use the TIs failed more frequently due to the lower quality of the keypads. (No one dropped their calculators, they cost too much to treat roughly, particularly the HPs which cost about a sixth of what a new car cost). Consumer reports had honestly tried to create a test for reliability in an office environment and dutifully reported the results. This comparison was a lesson for me. It is easy to be correct, but not right. So I read Consumer Reports with a grain of salt, and maintain a lot of caution about whether I am right, or merely correct.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 16, 2016, 12:09:42 am
content: Quote from: IanB on May 15, 2016, 03:44:28 amI use a physical calculator every day. Nothing beats having something right there that you can carry with you, always works instantly, is never out of battery, never locks up, never updating some crap etc.Computer calculator are horrible to use, and the only phone calculators that are any good are the ones that ones that emulate the look and feel on real calculator. There is a reason for that...

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 16, 2016, 12:11:06 am
content: Quote from: VK3DRB on May 15, 2016, 12:36:05 pmI've use RealCalc on my phone(but only when I don't have access to a real calculator)

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 16, 2016, 12:12:19 am
content: Quote from: MrSlack on May 15, 2016, 09:10:03 amI hates Casio's move to VPAM, and still greatly prefer the pre-VPAM calcs.

author: ECEdesign
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 16, 2016, 01:43:30 am
content: I use a TI n-spire calculator it is really nice. It has a touchpad which is handy for graphing. You can visually find max and min points as well as integrate by dragging between two endpoints. The math calculation is very visual so you can make sure the calculator is calculating things how you think they are and are not lost in parenthesis. For example fractions actually use a fraction bar so you see the numerator and denominator instead of everything on a single line. There is also a CAS version if you're into that kind of thing. It is a very powerful calculator but takes a little getting used to. I wouldn't want to go back to an 83 for sure after this experience.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 16, 2016, 01:54:52 am
content: I remember drooling when I saw my first HP45 - but it was out of my reach. I had to settle for a HP25 purely on the cost factor. It wasn't as elegant a design as the HP45 (or the mouth-watering HP65), but it did have a programming capability.These days, most of the time when I need calculator functions I'm sitting in front of my computer and I just fire up Excel. It allows me to set out several values which can be easily checked and changed ... and to have a couple of variations if I want to do comparative calculations or 'what if' stuff. It's developed into a habit - so now that's my first choice even for simple calcs. As for a separate calculator - I just don't do enough to warrant having one on my desk, besides there's enough crap floating around as it is.There's always the calculator on my phone (S4) - but it takes longer to get it out, unlock and fire it up than it does to get Excel going. I will use it, though, when away from my computer. Occasionally, I will do some basic calcs by hand and sometimes actually try doing some in my head - just to keep the brain cells from seizing up.Also - came across one of my old slides rule the other day .... one of these:I used to be able to pull 4 or 5 digits from the lower end of the scale on a good day.... but now the thought of using it makes me feel tired.Funny thing - I was the first in my year at high school to get a slide rule (this looks like it:- but I don't know where it is now.)and worked out how to use it pretty quickly. One day we had a maths class with a substitute teacher who found out I knew how to use one, so she sent me up to the maths staff room to collect a 4ft wooden one ... and then stand out in front of the class and teach them the basics. I also got invited to a special meeting with a group from the teaching staff and the P&C to assess a "programmable calculator". It was the size of two loaves of bread and programming was by punching out tabs from a card which was rather thick and stiff. IIRC, it was interesting, but didn't offer much in the way of real value.

author: hamster_nz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 16, 2016, 02:06:36 am
content: I'm now old - I've completely transcended calculator envy, and now just wait till the sales are on and pick up 'junkers' to leave lying around (at work, in the car, on the bedside table...)My current favorite junker is a "H+O Casio FX clone"http://www.warehousestationery.co.nz/product/B217529.html,which I sometimes grab for half price (about US$5)It is quite liberating to think no more of a co-worker 'borrowing' a calculator than I would of them borrowing a pen. "Yeah - just take it... you can buy me a coffee sometime".

author: eugenenine
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 16, 2016, 02:09:50 am
content: Ti won all because of marketing. They beat HP because they were 1/2 to 1/3 of the cost, you can buy a lot of beer with that. They beat the rest by working with the schools and textbook publishers to get their calculators in as the examples.Back when HP was still Hewitt Packard they were ahead of everyone else and you paid for that. Many other classmates told me I was dumb for wasting the $ on the more expensive HP. But Hewitt Packard stuff was built better and could do so much more. I remember getting compilers and could run the same code we ran in class on PC's on my HP48. Its a shame Hewitt Packard became HP and turned into just another pc builder. I still keep my stuff from the old Hewitt Packard days, have a 48SX, CapShare and just added a 200LX (though it has a bad screen).

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 16, 2016, 02:48:39 am
content: For those who can't find their slide rules:http://www.antiquark.com/sliderule/sim/n909es/virtual-n909-es.htmlorhttp://www.antiquark.com/sliderule/sim/virtual-slide-rule.htmlThis looks a lot like my old Pickett metal rule. I never liked it much as it never moved as smoothly as the wooden, bamboo or even plastic slide rules. The simulation is far nicer to use than that rule ever was. I still like my Post log-log dupli trig best.

author: Tomorokoshi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 16, 2016, 03:25:47 am
content: Quote from: Brumby on May 16, 2016, 01:54:52 amThat's a beautiful slide rule. I bought one from the factory NOS a couple years ago.

author: Ampera
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 16, 2016, 04:01:13 am
content: Quote from: xrunner on May 16, 2016, 02:09:50 amI am already so used to the long ass stack on the HP50G that the hp48G's stack is looking small, nevermind a two tall stack.

author: Ampera
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 16, 2016, 04:06:37 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on May 16, 2016, 12:09:42 amMy point exactly. Having a nice calculator that you can use faster then anyone could using a computer and that is ready to go in a second flat (I'm looking at you HP50G with your 6 second startup time)is awesome. I am a student and I will admit I will be using it more as a student, but plans to go into EE and Computer Science means that I might very well be using a calculator for a while more.Also all the talk about HP calculators being more expensive WAS true, but the calculators are as much or even cheaper then Ti's (I got my hp50G brand new for 50 dollars).Not only that you ACTUALLY get what you pay for. Instead of a 5 dollar Z80 based computer from the 1980s you get a modern ARM based (Or saturn) calculator that runs like a cheetah on crack.The newer Ti calculators (And even the 68k ones which I would pick up just to mess about with) are fast like the HPs, but they are expensive and not used by a who lot of people.My moral of the story is that while Ti might have made sense before, HP is made better, programmed better, and now they cost less then Ti.We just need to all beg and hope that the HP Prime isn't the last one they make (If this has been proven, sorry I am very late to the party)

author: photon
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 16, 2016, 05:46:51 am
content: A slide rule requires you to think about the arithmetic and understand logs and loglogs. I still use mine to fight dementia.

author: VulcanBB18
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 16, 2016, 05:52:57 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on May 16, 2016, 12:09:42 amReally?! There must be something about calculators I'm missing, because I've always found this :Plus this :Was more than ample. Usually better because I'm sitting at the desk with my project and PC. Do I just not use one often enough?Would honestly like to know what is is so horrible about the windows calc, seems to have all the functions I used to reach for a discrete calculator previously?cheers,Jacob

author: amspire
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 16, 2016, 05:54:49 am
content: The thing that can keep HP-type calculators alive is that the binaries for most of the calculators are available, and the Saturn cpu (used in many of HP's best calculators) has available simulators. The modern ARM chip based calculators usually have a Saturn emulator. The second point was that the CAS (Computer Algebra System) in the Aussie-designed HP49c and later was open source, so HP made available the tools to recompile the CAS and the tools to build new binaries. If you were trying to make an HP clone, the CAS is probably the really hard part. It is not so hard making a calculator do Sin, Cos, etc.One of the things about the Saturn chip is that the registers are organised in binary coded decimal, rather then binary and this leads to far fewer of the typical binary to decimal conversion artefacts. Things like 5.0/2.5 = 1.999999999999.There have been alternate attempts at HP calculator clones likehttps://www.swissmicros.comand the WP 34S that took an HP30b financial calculator and reprogrammed it to be a great open source scientific calculator with a real HP keyboard. A new vinyl overlay was printed to fit behind the keys and some mods were made inside to add a real time clock internally.http://kk.org/cooltools/wp-34s-scientific-calculator/If HP kill their RPN scientific calculators totally, you would probably find the interest in alternative commercial and open-source replacements increasing. It will always be a niche market.I always thought that HP calculators reached their zenith with the HP11c to HP16c range and after that point, the complexity grew past the point that most people could handle comfortably. Going to a backlight Hi-Res LCD screen can help, but you loose the very long battery life most people want from a calculator. I think HP Prime is a step towards oblivion myself. If you need a computer, get a real computer. A PC, notebook, tablet, mobile smartphone, etc. I have never understood why HP didn't continue to sell the HP11c, HP15c and HP16c. They kept the HP12C going, so they could easily make the other models in the same case. They are the perfect shirt pocket-sized calculators.

author: Raj
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 16, 2016, 09:08:39 am
content: personally, i'll never but a calculator outside of education use... we have computers! we can use them for same purpose .... i'll rather get something to control those computers remotely with my phone like splashtop or chrome remote desktop stuff

author: 3db
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 16, 2016, 09:33:19 am
content: I still have and use the HP 41CV I bought decades ago.I still love it.The HP12 financial calculator is still made because the algorithms it used are still the standard for the financial industry.3DB

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 16, 2016, 10:05:00 am
content: QuoteTI's dominance there comes from their clever marketing.I'm more of a Casio person, starting with their FX-82 - still have it and still working.

author: VK3DRB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 16, 2016, 10:17:32 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on May 16, 2016, 12:11:06 amI actually prefer Realcalc because if I am mobile I always have a trusty calculator with me as it is part of my wireless telephone. I often use the hex calculator feature and even the units conversion (I think that one is only on the paid version). Even so, I still have my Farad 808 scientific calculator on my desk which I bought in 1976. It still works and I do love the green glow of the VFD's.Its a bit like short wave receivers and ham transceivers. You can get SDR's with fancy Windows UI's,, and radios with LCD displays etc with fantastic spec, but there is something special about the glow of an old analogue S-meter or tuning display on an old radio. It lights up with personality and a sense of wonder. Same with old classic calculators that were beautifully engineered.

author: karoru
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 16, 2016, 12:50:04 pm
content: Is this "college calculator stuff" an American thing? I've seen random college/business calculus textbooks for American colleges and I couldn't figure out why are they more concerned with drawing graphs on magical battery-powered black boxes than actually learning the material and how to think and now it makes a bit of sense if everyone had some Ti/HP gear. When I was getting my first degree (years 200x) nobody really used any more advanced calculator, just random four banger if you really needed, lately I went to technical uni to get my second diploma only thing I've seen was random Casio ripoff crap.

author: Zbig
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 16, 2016, 01:15:46 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on May 16, 2016, 12:09:42 amIt seems there's really something wrong with your smartphone, DaveIf yours really does work like that, doesn't it make it not fit for purpose, like... you know... making and receiving phone calls? And maybe I'm weird (well, I'm fairly certain I am), but I still don't really get this battery suddenly dying on you thing either. I hear people reiterating this argument over and over again every time they want to make a point against using a smartphone. I know my smartphone well enough to know the battery easily lasts at least one day if I don't watch video or play games for hours on it. Before I go to bed, I shower and brush my teeth. It takes me some 10-15 minutes. Then I plonk my smartphone in the charging cradle on my nightstand and that takes me whole one second. Really, that difficult to make that a habit? There really is no reason not to charge your smartphone each night overnight, when you're (mostly) sleeping anyway and then have a whole worry-free day of smartphone use. For travels, outdoors situations etc., I have a USB power bank. But then again, I rarely have a need to perform complex calculations when I'm out and about

author: MrSlack
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 16, 2016, 01:44:48 pm
content: HP 50G is the opposite to Dave's requirements:* sometimes works instantly. Mostly hangs for a bit.* Usually is out of battery.* Locks up for GC all the time.* Doesn't have any updates since 2006 or any of the annoying bugs fixed...

author: amspire
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 16, 2016, 02:20:45 pm
content: Quote from: MrSlack on May 16, 2016, 01:44:48 pmI didn't know it was that bad. I have a number of HP49Gs which use the 4MHz Saturn processor (not an ARM). It starts in less then 1 second and it doesn't hang - unless you are talking about hanging when you ask it to do a plot with slow calculations. 23 mA when on (about 35 hours) and 0.1uA when off which is about 3 years of life from the batteries.Like you said, the last official release is 2.09 from 2006, but there is also an unofficial release 1.24 from Bernard Parisse, one of the main HP49G programmers. The CAS source is 2004 or earlier, but there is one 2006 file. As it contains some non-LPGL code, it cannot be released as a binary, so Bernard released it a source code file with all you need to compile to binary. It does mean that at least we can work on customising and fixing the CAS on the HP49G.http://www-fourier.ujf-grenoble.fr/~parisse/

author: Ampera
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 16, 2016, 03:28:18 pm
content: Quote from: amspire on May 16, 2016, 02:20:45 pmIt's not "That bad".The only issues that I have found with it (That couldn't be fixed) are the long ass startup time and the fact that the equation writer sucks balls.

author: Ampera
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 16, 2016, 03:41:26 pm
content: Quote from: VulcanBB18 on May 16, 2016, 05:52:57 amThey have more physical buttons to them (Sorry for the grainy ass picture, too lazy to charge actual camera)Not only that due to RPN you can calculate faster on EVERY function. Look up and try RPN on a physical calculator(Or at least an emulated calculator using real buttons.These calculators have functions like absolute value, rounding, turning decimals into fractions, the ability to put in a function and have it plug in every number in for X.They normally take numbers out farther (Mine can go to 9.99999999999 x 10499)They can graph (Normally useless and slow, I never use it.) functions.They also have a LOT of financial algorithms and built in functions that windows calculators don't have. (With the exception of excel, but that's not good for doing a lot of odd calculations with big numbers on the spot in 20 seconds)Real calculators have a reason to exist because they are a device with CLEAR purpose and they have been engineered for over 45 years with that exact purpose in mind.That will obviously make them better at what they do. The programming and interface outranks that of the PC by MILESFrom today until the day I spontaneously combust into flaming popcorn, I will use a physical calculator for my programming and engineering needs.The only reason I wouldn't use it is if it really couldn't do something that a computer can. Otherwise it's better then using a computer.

author: R_Gtx
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 16, 2016, 04:08:31 pm
content: It's 1770, the year Lieutenant James Cook charted the east coast of Daves' homeland. Over in Germany, the priest and eminent clockmaker Philipp Matthäus Hahn in designing planetaria decided that to speed up the calculation of the necessary wheel trains, he would need a calculator, none being commercially available, he invented his own, the result is what I would call a real engineers machine!http://history-computer.com/MechanicalCalculators/18thCentury/Hahn.html

author: lapm
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 16, 2016, 05:59:18 pm
content: Personally i still use my HP48GX almost daily... Bought this long ago when i was in school studying engineering... Infact engraving in back says 1993, so its almost 23 years old now...I my memory serves correct the infared coms were real battery killers at time... Me and fellow students quickly made serial cable to solve that... Pinout was in manual

author: John Coloccia
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 16, 2016, 06:39:07 pm
content: If HP still made their 12C style scientific calculator, I would have bought it, but instead I settled on a TI-30Xa and am very happy. At least it has decent feeling buttons.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 16, 2016, 11:22:37 pm
content: Quote from: TwoOfFive on May 15, 2016, 03:36:41 amI had to buy a HP calculator for school but I quickly reverted back to my good old Casio fx4500 because the HP could not keep up with my typing but also because the Casio has the f,p,k,M, G etc postfixes which are very handy when working with electronics. It lasted for over 20 years and after that I got a Casio fx-115ms (actually a few).

author: eugenenine
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 17, 2016, 12:23:56 am
content: Quote from: VulcanBB18 on May 16, 2016, 05:52:57 amWell,1: Its windows. I not going to waste $100 on a license to use it and spend more $ for tools to fix its defects and security vulnerabilities and spend time maintaining it and rebooting it when it goes in the weeds.2: Its not RPN3: That keyboard doesn't have the same fees as the great old HP's, you would have to use one for a bit to understand that part.I do admit to having Droid 48 on my phone but its just not the same as the real thing. You can't emulate the feel.

author: eugenenine
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 17, 2016, 12:30:22 am
content: Quote from: karoru on May 16, 2016, 12:50:04 pmI bought my HP48 my second trimester of college when I found out how far behind I was in math. My high school didn't allow me to take any advanced classes because I "wasn't college material". The HP48 had a graphical equation editor where I could enter the problem just like in the book then single step through it. That HP48 taught me more math than all my high school math teachers.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 17, 2016, 01:56:11 am
content: Quote from: eugenenine on May 17, 2016, 12:23:56 amThe feel of a good calculator is great. But not so great that I want to switch back and forth between the screen/keyboard and the calculator. This isn't just a Windows thing. Linux has calculators and spreadsheets also. RPN calculators.When I am doing heavy engineering work away from a computer I use a calculator. When I am not doing heavy work away from the computer the emulators on the smart phone are good enough, and certainly the defects aren't worth carrying another piece of hardware around. Those times when the calculator are the right answer are getting downright rare. The only other time I really use one is when I am in an application that isn't friendly to window switching (clears the form whenever it isn't the primary window). Fortunately those are also rare.

author: Ampera
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 17, 2016, 02:55:58 am
content: Quote from: CatalinaWOW on May 17, 2016, 01:56:11 amThe thing is I don't have a smartphone. I ordered an IPhone 3G to use as a sort of PDA kinda deal, but I doubt it has a nice calculator. Not only that but glass buttons on a touch screen are god awful.I wouldn't "Carry around" a calculator wherever I go, but I keep one on my desk, and if I am setting up somewhere else I bring it too.

author: Ampera
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 17, 2016, 03:04:21 am
content: Quote from: eugenenine on May 17, 2016, 12:30:22 am(As a small note if you are NOT in the US, then I apologize, but practically NOWHERE else in the world are the schools so bad)This is a GREAT example of the US Education system.Fk it.Seriously it is the WORST school system in the world for treating the education of 90% of all school children as a chore that needs to be done by treating everyone like fish going down an assembly line.Honestly in New York (Which is an example of a bad school state AND I am in Schenectady County which is a bad school county IN a bad school state IN a bad school country) in my area there are FIGHTCLUBs going on. This is how SHIT the American education system is where you have girls (This is a girl club, but it doesn't matter) attacking random people in the school for fun. Even the PARENTS do thisin parking lots and in sporting events. The management is too piss stoned off the ass of their crap salaries to care about anything. Heck when there was an improvement in the schools who were reporting in the Capitol District, it was because Schenectady just stopped reporting.And I am sure there are a handful of GREAT public schools with HIGH budgets in nice cities inhabited by more well off people, but for the rest of America the situation is bad. Bullying (Not making fun of people, ACTUAL physical contact) is commonplace and there is nothing being done about it like putting obvious offenders into mental care.This also effects not only children, but the present generation too. There is a reason why people crack jokes at Americans for being fat and stupid. That's because a good amount of us are. We have bad education, bad traditions that get passed down, and a bad deal overall.People beat their kids all over the country. I BET you there is not ONE VILLAGE that doesn't have someone who abuses people and their own lives regularly. The average mental capacity of an American is that ofa newborn. Heck a newborn would probably have the sense to not try to kill anyone who steps into their yard to ask for a favor.Rant over.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 17, 2016, 05:15:37 am
content: Quote from: VK3DRB on May 15, 2016, 12:36:05 pmQuote from: EEVblog on May 16, 2016, 12:09:42 amI agree that Windows "calculator emulators" are not very convenient, but they are not what I use. When I want to do a few quick calculations, this is what I use:I can work much more quickly and conveniently with this and a computer keyboard than I can with a small calculator screen and fiddly calculator buttons. Since I am nearly always in front of a computer screen when I want to calculate stuff, there is no reason to switch to some other piece of hardware. Added to which, with the calculator on my computer desktop I can copy and paste numbers in and out of it which saves re-keying numbers by hand.

author: heima
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: May 17, 2016, 05:39:02 am
content: Anybody else remember tuning in their Rockwell or Commodore calculator with an AM radio, to hear the different tones when the buttons were pressed? No, not talking DTMF tone, just noise from the processor or perhaps the display driver.

author: Raj
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 17, 2016, 06:59:25 am
content: Quote from: heima on May 17, 2016, 05:39:02 ammy calculator still makes those interference waves

author: Ampera
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 17, 2016, 07:17:08 am
content: Quote from: IanB on May 17, 2016, 05:15:37 amI can outpace you hand over fist in any simple arithmetic calculation spree using a physical RPN calculator than you could with that calculator program.Reverse Polish Notation is when use properly a HELL of a lot faster to use then algebraic. Button presses are reduced, you can pull off multiple calculations at one time using the stack.Ti style algebraic is DEAD last in comparison.I know I am not explaining this well, but you need to use an RPN calculator to know this, and you need to use it a lot. It's like learning to type compared to tapping the keys one by one.You learn shortcuts, ways to arrange the numbers on the stack that all fall into place with the operations. It moves from just understanding how to punch it in to actually needing to understand the mathto get the full use. You need to know what you are calculating, it gives to better learning and better practice. Ti calculators you can just punch in numbers in the order someone tells you and you get it done.HP you can do that, but you can also decide to change the steps up a bit to get a faster time on the fly.

author: MrSlack
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 17, 2016, 07:43:24 am
content: Quote from: amspire on May 16, 2016, 02:20:45 pmIt's actually only slow because it's emulating a Saturn CPU still. That's a boost over the HP49G in raw processing power but the VM they use relies on GC and long start up times so the benefits are moot. I was lucky if I got three week out of a set of GP Ultras in it. Ended up fishing out for Eneloops and cycling them once every two weeks. That and to write anything in RPL you had to drag the manual around with you to remember half of it. Not that you got a printed copy; two PDFs on a CD. That totalled about 2000 pages or documentation. For a calculator?!?!?!?!All these suck compared to the Casio 9750G I had which in daily use got through 4xAAA batteries in just over 3 years. And the manual isn't required as the entire thing is discoverable ad obvious.

author: amspire
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 17, 2016, 08:03:25 am
content: Quote from: MrSlack on May 17, 2016, 07:43:24 amThe Saturn emulator only gives about twice the speed of the HP49G, and so I don't see the advantages of the ARM-based HP49G+/HP50G if they start slow and use more battery power. I am happy with lower speed and excellent battery life of the 4MHz Saturn. If I need more speed, I run a HP49G emulator on my phone and get over 10x the speed. According to this benchmarkhttp://www.hpmuseum.org/cgi-sys/cgiwrap/hpmuseum/articles.cgi?read=700The HP49G is only half the speed of the Casio 9750G and most of the time, it is easily fast enough.

author: MrSlack
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 17, 2016, 08:43:29 am
content: Only problem with the 49G is the keys are horrid.

author: JacquesBBB
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 17, 2016, 08:58:54 am
content: Quote from: IanB on May 17, 2016, 05:15:37 amI am very often in front of a computer, have a very quick and easy software for general computationsbut still, when I am working on the desk where my HP32S is, I will grab it for some small operations.But I will never do some programming or complex operations on the HP32S. For this the computer is way more efficient.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 17, 2016, 03:26:37 pm
content: Quote from: TwoOfFive on May 17, 2016, 07:17:08 amFor equally capable users of RPN and algebraic methods - RPN will always be quicker. The learning curve is real - but not onerous.

author: MrSlack
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 17, 2016, 04:15:57 pm
content: Until you have to push the operands of a numerical integration on the stack and can't remember the order, then have to dig out the manual which you don't have handy. HP50g I'm looking at you.Shit Casio. Haven't ever used the manual. This is my daughter's one...

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 17, 2016, 05:02:03 pm
content: But again, this stuff is so much easier in front of a computer screen:

author: MrSlack
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 17, 2016, 05:15:41 pm
content: Assuming the internet is working. I have a down ADSL line and shitty 4G.

author: john_p_wi
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 17, 2016, 05:27:11 pm
content: I still use my HP 28S daily after 30 years, I'm so used to RPN and stacks that a "normal" calculator is almost unuseable...

author: PartialDischarge
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 17, 2016, 05:43:31 pm
content: I still use calculators too, despite the iphone or ipad being around..Use the HP48 a lot for the RPN and this beauty a CASIO FX880 one of the few qwerty calcs with BASIC programming language:

author: 3db
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 18, 2016, 09:34:58 am
content: Quote from: john_p_wi on May 17, 2016, 05:27:11 pmI couldn't agree more.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 18, 2016, 09:56:42 am
content: Never really see the need for a programmable calculator. I dont even know what would I program on it. Im not using a fourbanger, it is a Sharp EL520W. Does integral. And pen and paper. if you write it down and trying to solve it you actually understand the problem much better.And when it comes to electronics, I never use calculator. There is circuit simulator to do that. How much capacitor do you need to keep a 3.3V MCU backed up for 20ms to save the data in case of power failure, when the CPU uses 20mA current, and it works down to 2.8V.I am quite certain, that this can be integrated and everything (hint: you dont even need integral), but drawing a circuit with one known, one guesstimated and simulating it... That is just so much faster.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 18, 2016, 02:03:07 pm
content: Quote from: NANDBlog on May 18, 2016, 09:56:42 amProgramming in calculators comes into play when you have a function that you use over and over again. When I was using a calculator heavily I programmed various black body integrals (using an algorithm faster than simpson integration). It was something that at the time I used often so having an assigned key was a real time saver. Later the same thing for statistical functions. Newer calculators had these functions built in, but the principal is there. It might be something really simple like computing the value of a trim resistor given a measurement of offset voltage. Sure, you can just do it in a few keystrokes, but if you are doing it over and over again cutting those few keystrokes in half matters.If you never do the same thing twice programming has no allure. How many repetitions it takes to make a program worthwhile will vary from person to person and situation to situation.

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 18, 2016, 03:14:55 pm
content: Quote from: CatalinaWOW on May 18, 2016, 02:03:07 pmMore prosaically, I'm sure the function that would get most programmed to its own key by the denizens here would be R1//R2. Cue Dave...

author: 3db
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 18, 2016, 04:26:01 pm
content: Quote from: NANDBlog on May 18, 2016, 09:56:42 amBack in the day they were used to do things like calculate the position of a drill rig or an anchor handling vessel.Some long range radio positioning systems that were connected to computers for real time positioningcould lose position just because a crane moved.A HP 41 could be used to get things back on track.There were many occasions when the calculator saved the day.If you wrote and tested the program you knew that the answers were correct.I've seen millions of $$ lost because people believed what the computer told them.3DB

author: MrSlack
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 18, 2016, 08:04:02 pm
content: Quote from: Cerebus on May 18, 2016, 03:14:55 pmFirst thing when I got my HP50G:<< DUP INV SWAP INV + INV >>

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 18, 2016, 08:38:09 pm
content: Quote from: MrSlack on May 18, 2016, 08:04:02 pmWhich is a really long way of doing<< 2 / >>unless you really meant<< INV SWAP INV + INV >>The first finds the parallel combination of two resistors equal to the first entry in the stackThe second finds the parallel combination of the first two entries in the stack

author: MrSlack
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 18, 2016, 09:52:50 pm
content: Yeah remove the DUP. I haven't owned an HP 50g for about 4 years so excuse the brain rot.First two operands on stack yes.

author: Carl_Smith
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 19, 2016, 03:34:14 am
content: Sometime back in my university days of my EE degree I got my Dad to buy me an HP28S. Worked great for a while except for the battery door corners breaking. Other students also had 28S's with tape over the battery door. Eventually it succumbed to operator abuse and was no longer usable. We won't mention the incident with the Mountain Dew...So I bought myself an HP48GX that I used for most of the rest of college. Still have it today. My biggest complaint with it is that I can out type the speed of the screen updates, and it takes too long for menus to pop up and selections on the menu to move. But it was still, in my opinion, the best calculator.Then I took some business classes and ended up getting an HP 17BII business calculator when I got tired of spending so much time trying to program financial functions into the HP48 that were already in the 17B.A couple years ago I happened across an HP48gII in a pawn shop and had to buy it. It's much faster, and the screen is a bit bigger, so you get to see one more line of stack with the same font size. But I found it incredibly annoying that they moved the enter key.Since I got out of college I have never bothered to program anything into the HP48. I just use it as an RPN math calculator. I still like to do calculations with RPN and a stack.The windows calculator has one ability I like. It can work with really large numbers with all the digits. Try doing the factorial of 29 on any handheld calculator and see all the 30 some digits of the answer. Although now that I try the factorial a few times I see that it always has six zeros on the least significant digits so it's not doing it full precision...Back in college, for me, one of the most useful functions of the HP28 and 48 was the ability to do math with units attached to the numbers. I had a hell of a time remembering formulas. But if I attached the proper units to all the numbers as I did the math, and came up with inconsistent units at the answer, I knew the formula I used was wrong, and usually I could deduce where I went wrong by what the difference was with the units I got compared to the units I wanted.With the HP28S you could even look in the units catalog to see what base SI units made up a unit, which would tell you how to do the math to calculate various things. If you want Newtons, look it up and see that you better be multiplying kilograms by meters then dividing by seconds squared.

author: Galenbo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 19, 2016, 06:55:27 am
content: I still like my TI-74 Basicalc.Still waiting for some android app that gives me the same possibilities: simply write some code on the smartphone and run it, without too much GUI/presets/projectcreation/PC link/...

author: R_Gtx
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 20, 2016, 12:01:24 pm
content: Quote from: Carl_Smith on May 19, 2016, 03:34:14 am29! = 1x2x3x4x.....x28*29= (1x2x3x4x6x7x9x11x12x13x14x16x17x18x19x21x22x23x24x26x27x28x29) x (8x5x10x15x20x25)= 2,947,253,997,913,233,984,847,872 x 3,000,000= 8,841,761,993,739,701,954,543,616,000,000So, the six least significant digits should necessarily be equal to zero.Incidentally, Mathematica 10 on the Raspberry Pi 3, will give you all 973,351 digits of 200,000! in less than 0.5 second, of which the 49,998 least significant digits are all zero.

author: Carl_Smith
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 21, 2016, 04:17:13 am
content: Quote from: R_Gtx on May 20, 2016, 12:01:24 pmDamn. I saw a bunch of random looking numbers and then zeros and just assumed it wasn't doing full precision. But it makes sense that larger factorials would end in zeros. Basically any multiple of ten in the series will add a zero, and every multiple of 5 that you can pair up with an even number somewhere in the list will make another multiple of ten and add another zero.OK, googled it and found this page that explains how to figure out the number of zeros.http://www.purplemath.com/modules/factzero.htm