Battery Powered Homes in Australia? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: tpowell1830
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2017, 03:59:49 am
content: I ran across the video on YT. This says that 20% of Australians from Perth are using Solar Cells for home power. Also, you have a new battery technology using Bromine. I thought that was interesting considering that I keep seeing these reports on the forum that there are walking brownouts and blackouts in the southern part of Australia. Is the use of batteries really that prevalent for home power? The $5000 government rebate looks nice as well.What do you Australians think?https://youtu.be/TANINuODTTo

author: Red Squirrel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2017, 04:19:02 am
content: This is something that's always interested me to look into. Basically you have something like this:Commercial hydro => Rectifiers (AC-DC converters) => Battery bank => inverter => Main panel to rest of house - this is similar to telecom as it's used for power backup.This will allow to perhaps turn rectifiers off on peak and use the battery then recharge off peak. You could also add solar to the mix, so during the day the solar panels would be charging the batteries instead of the rectifiers.

author: BradC
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2017, 04:27:23 am
content: Quote from: tpowell1830 on March 21, 2017, 03:59:49 amThere is a significant Solar uptake in Perth. Thankfully our grid is entirely divorced from the "National Energy Market" and we actually have fairly reliable power with a significant base load capacity. It took the network operator a few years to adjust to the variability of the Solar input, as 4 or 5 years ago we were seeing summer voltage peaks in excess of 270V. They seem to have that sorted in the last couple of years, and while we still see wild freqnency swings (+/- 0.5Hz in some cases) the voltage is a lot more stable. Haven't had a significant outage for a number of years now, and certainly nothing approaching the farce that has been seen in South Australia recently.Additionally, many moons ago our State Govt decided we needed to quarantine a decent percentage of our Natural Gas production for local use (much to the disgust of the Federal Govt at the time). Thankfully that has worked for us, and we're pretty self sufficient over here now.

author: MrBungle
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 21, 2017, 04:33:00 am
content: Quote from: tpowell1830 on March 21, 2017, 03:59:49 amI can't watch the video for some reason(work server issues) but as a resident of Perth, I think this figure is generous.I certainly don't see 1 in 5 roofs with panels but solar is definitely on the increase. I would guess I see maybe 1 in 10.QuoteDon't confuse 'southern parts' with the state of South Australia, most of Australia's population is 'southern' but it is really only the State of South Australia that is having issues.QuoteNope, the vast majority of systems are grid-connect, though I'm sure storage is gaining popularity now thanks to Tesla.QuoteIt's okay, but the older rebate systems were far better for early adopters.I know a few people that are still getting a 43cent per kWh feed-in tariff.

author: moz
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2017, 04:34:20 am
content: The company referred to is almost certainlyhttp://redflow.com/Their chairsuit is active on Whirlpool and there's quite a lot of info if you want to read the main thread:https://forums.whirlpool.net.au/archive/2515892Also:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/zinc-bromine-flow-batteries-are-they-going-to-make-it/msg1079959/#msg1079959(second the comments about solar penetration being uneven, and batteries rare. We have comparatively a lot of off-grid houses but they're mostly remote places where the grid is unavailable or really unreliable)

author: moz
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2017, 05:27:48 am
content: Quote from: wilfred on March 21, 2017, 05:08:46 amThat's easy: yes, they can do that now... in Japanhttp://www.greencarreports.com/news/1095193_nissan-leaf-to-home-electric-car-power-tests-more-practical-for-u-s-with-longer-range-carshttp://www.nissan-global.com/EN/NEWS/2012/_STORY/120530-01-e.htmlNot least because they already have demand management so things like this pay off. When it's costing 15-20c/kWh to cycle power through the battery someone has to pay for that to be worth while. Apparently the Japanese decided that that makes sense. But here in Australia we're proud consumers living in an economy, and much more money changes hands if we live in poorly insulated houses, buy big air conditioners, and run them full blast on hot days. It's a win-win-win, except for consumers who get ... uh... billed.Australia also hassome pumped hydrobut it's rarely used because the fossil power company that owns it makes more money if it's idle (the peak price they get goes higher, more often)

author: moz
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2017, 05:44:02 am
content: Quote from: wilfred on March 21, 2017, 05:08:46 amI suggest it goes back even before Howard's last-gasp price on carbon promise, to the decision to privatise the generators and grid. The electricity grid is actually a canonical example of a natural monopoly used by economists to show that markets aren't always appropriate. The carbon price and renewables saga also shows how hard it is to manage a utility that runs on 30-60 year cycles when the rules change with the wind.My expectation is that when (if) batteries become viable for a significant number of people we will see supply charges based on the property being able to be serviced rather than the connection being used. The argument that the supplier has to maintain the grid regardless is valid, and we already see that done with sewage and town water (mostly in more rural areas). I'd be peeved, but also one of the people skirting that by living in a granny flat with no separate connection ... let the tenants pay the supply charge

author: BradC
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2017, 07:07:47 am
content: Quote from: wilfred on March 21, 2017, 05:08:46 amI'm sure this isn't the context you posed that question in, but certainly in the Hurricane states in the US people have been running inverters from their electric cars for emergency house power.The high voltage pack steps down to 12V, they run their inverter from that. When the HV pack gets low the car cycles the IC to charge it back up again. Lather, rinse & repeat.Of course the ideal is to take the power direct from the HV pack, but doing it the other way is just "off the shelf" so to speak.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 21, 2017, 09:20:23 am
content: Quote from: moz on March 21, 2017, 04:34:20 amYes it would be Redflow.I have a contact who can hook me up with a director of this company (Simon Hackett of Shark tank fame)

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 21, 2017, 09:21:04 am
content: Quote from: tpowell1830 on March 21, 2017, 03:59:49 amWhere is there a $5k rebate for battery systems?

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 21, 2017, 09:54:12 am
content: Related:

author: BradC
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2017, 11:03:38 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on March 21, 2017, 09:20:23 amI'd be seriously interested in seeing some more detail on their tech. The stuff on their web is nice, but kinda vague. It *looks* like a fascinating storage tech. Certainly more than a crapload of lithium a welded together.

author: tpowell1830
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2017, 11:53:35 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on March 21, 2017, 09:21:04 amIt is at around 11:30 in the video, Adelaide counsel offering it.Elon Musk is offering to offer batteries, I guess that is the Tesla system.

author: moz
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2017, 09:08:10 pm
content: Quote from: BradC on March 21, 2017, 11:03:38 amDo you mean the datasheets on the cells? A little clicking round the links Simon gave at the start of the Whirlpool thread gave me this page:http://redflow.com/products/redflow-zbm-2/which has a bunch of PDFs linked. That seems likely to be about as detailed as you'll get without signing up as an installer. But you could always ask Simon on Whirlpool (after reading the thread), because he has been pretty good about answering.I was adding a mumble about Simon's house being very cool and Simon being a mad keen enthusiast type while Dave's video above played... but I think the video conveys that quite nicely

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2017, 10:04:42 pm
content: Australia certainly seems like a nearly ideal place for solar. Plenty of sunlight, relatively expensive conventional energy, lots of air conditioning load during times of peak sunlight, relatively progressive attitude, I'd bet on it becoming a lot more common over the next 20 years.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2017, 11:18:01 pm
content: I never understood this "lets place a battery to every home" movement. You dont want to place batteries at home. Batteries are expensive, they need maintenance, they are a fire hazard, they wear out. The grid operator needs to place batteries. They need to smooth out the power fluctuations, and supply the grid with reliable power. That is what we are paying for.If your country is not using net metering, there could be a financial point to place batteries. But it is wrong. They should be using net metering, and have battery stations. The reasoning, is fundamentally wrong.It is a different story than placing solar panels. You have a roof, an empty space, the energy company does not have lots of empty space.And it is not economical. Solar panels are a different story, since even microinverters would be the most optimal. For batteries, the electronics scales very well. In theory, you can create a 10KV battery pack, run it through some SiC transistors, inductors, transformers, and get any AC voltage. It scales well upwards in power, not so much downwards. It costs hundreds of millions of dollars to make a power plant, surely, the grid operator will eventually be able to afford reasonably sized battery banks.

author: tpowell1830
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2017, 11:26:00 pm
content: Quote from: NANDBlog on March 21, 2017, 11:18:01 pmI think the point of the video was that those who had solar panels were getting a raw deal when selling power back to the suppliers. The idea is that instead of paying the high cost of prime time power from the power company that the users would just charge the batteries from the solar panels and use the stored power at the peak usage time when the power cost the most. These units have computerized systems that sorted all of that out for the users.

author: moz
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2017, 11:53:14 pm
content: Quote from: NANDBlog on March 21, 2017, 11:18:01 pmBatteries in homes don't solve a technical problem, they solve a political problem.For various reasons which are too painful to discuss some countries have political systems incapable of supporting or in some cases even permitting obvious technical solutions like grid or substation scale batteries. If those people want batteries (almost) the only option is to put batteries into their house.In Australia, as Simon Hackett mentioned in the video Dave linked, the regulatory obstacles to home grid-connected batteries are significant. The simple political solution is just to remove the feed-in tariff or lower it to pointlessness and it seems possible that Australia will do that. After that losing the tariff for having batteries isn't an issue.At a neighbourhood level Australia does have some micro-grid stuff happening, and some activist companies (like Redflow) are pushing different options where they can. But it's hard work, and we have already seen government step in and kill those schemes even (especially?) when they work well. The only fix for that is voting, but the most charitable explanation is that 90% of Australian voters don't think that climate change matters enough to change their vote.For an individual, one technical route around those is is to have a standard grid-interactive solar PV setup, but have a UPS for the house or some subset of it. Charge the UPS from the PV when you can, or from the grid when you can't. Program the UPS to deliver battery power to the house when it can, and from the grid when it can't. It's stupidly complicated, slightly more expensive than it could be, but it complies with the regulations. At the point where everyone loses their feed-in tariff the extra cost of that workaround becomes pointless.Worth noting that it's also technically illegal in Australia to run an extension cord over the fence and buy electricity from your neighbour, should you go off-grid and want to charge your batteries. But it's also illegal to run fixed cat5 or any other signal wire in your house. Some people know about those rules and obey them

author: mwalker
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2017, 01:55:40 am
content: Yet in Victoria we are increasing the minimum feed in tariff from 6.2c/kWh to 11c/kWh as of 1 July, which has the side effect of reducing the price incentive for batteries a fair bit.

author: Red Squirrel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2017, 06:58:37 am
content: For utility grade batteries it seems to me it would make sense to do this along HVDC lines. Could literally use lead acid batteries for that if you set the voltage to a proper float voltage (multiple of 2.25). Each cell would be about the size of a backyard swimming pool and there would be enough of them to be at the HVDC nominal voltage. They could run along the line in flat long buildings. The utility owns that property anyway and it needs to be cleared of trees, may as well build there. They would not be very tall buildings, just very long. The HVDC would then be set to the float voltage of that battery. For example if you go with a 675,000 volts, that would be 300,000 cells. Actually, 600,000, you want at least 2 strings for redundancy. Seems insane but seems to me this is the right way to go about battery storage. Not sure how much actual storage you'd get out of that though, but it would basically act as a big capacitor. Give a better grace period to startup more generating stations. Maybe buy minutes instead of seconds.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2017, 08:54:12 am
content: Quote from: Red Squirrel on March 22, 2017, 06:58:37 amActually, the way I imagine it is on a a smaller scale. In Belgium, we have a problem in some cases, when the sun is really shining.All the solar panels, are generating electricity, so the voltage at a feeder would increase, and when it would increase above the limit, your inverter is shutting down. This already happens, and the problem will happen more often, the more solar panels are installed.So the way I see it, the battery storage needs to be in a shipping container. It has to be a completely autonomous unit. Then the grid operator, would install these at the required places. Also, in case of an emergency, these can be relocated to the required location. They can be connected together, multiples next to each other, on top of each other, and so on. Complete, with built in fire suppressant system, space for maintenance, inverters, and so on, electro magnetically shielded, since it is a container, made out of steel. Lifetime of 10-15 years, we are supposed to have better battery technology by then anyway.On the grid scale, probably, it makes more sense to use fuel cells. Or batteries, where the electrolyte is stored externally. Storing liquid in high quantity is solved, and probably a lot cheaper than making mega batteries, or millions of 18650 cells.

author: moz
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2017, 08:45:16 pm
content: Batteries are not capacitors, and even HVDC lines vary in voltage, sometimes over fairly short intervals. 300,000 of anything complex in series will fail, probably quite quickly. Having an uncontrolled source/sink in the middle of an HVDC line would make controlling it more difficult. It would be much simpler to build a battery of the most economic units, scaled to be a convenient size. Then use modern power electronics to produce whatever voltage and current is required.Also, rather than fuel cells use flow batteries. Two or more big tanks, and a building between them where the active elements live. I believe Redflow have even talked about doing that.

author: raspberrypi
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2017, 09:06:25 pm
content: I plan on powering my home off AA alkaline cells. Sure you have to change the battieries but they are cheaper then rechargeable batteries and come fully charged. That will save alot in electricity when I have charge the batteries the first time I take them out of the box. Or even better idea: buy those dollar store "Heavy Duty" batteries. Im going with AA because the batteroo fits on them. Maybe augment them with some solar panels I can install under the parked cars in the drive way.I can't wait for the first video of a refrigerator sized liPo battery exploding.Photonicinduction on youtube has a good video on how he installed a bunch of batteries in his basement and recharges them at night with off peak electricity.

author: Red Squirrel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 23, 2017, 10:34:06 am
content: Quote from: NANDBlog on March 22, 2017, 08:54:12 amActually that may be more feasible. They could be made modular and configurable as different modes. Once they are designed they could be mass produced and be dropped almost anywhere. They could have different modes too, default would be to just "smooth out" the grid (would require some way to talk to the grid so it can be told to absorb or supply power) or they could also act as UPS or simply solar storage for off/semi off grid applications. Essentially a large scale powerwall.

author: Red Squirrel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 23, 2017, 10:37:10 am
content: Quote from: raspberrypi on March 22, 2017, 09:06:25 pmI imagine that would be cost prohibitive to do lol.Deep cycle batteries might be more suitable. I use them for my server backup but if I had more I could technically have it setup to charge off peak and run off them on peak. I would need more than what I have now though.Long term goal is to add solar to the mix, and they would only charge if solar is not keeping up. Right now my setup is standby but full conversion would be nice and is my future goal.

author: tpowell1830
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 24, 2017, 07:46:44 am
content: I realize hydrogen cells are a bit off topic, but has there been anymore testing and improving these? I know ten years or so ago they were to be the next big thing in power and now, nothing. There were real world tests being done with a few of these powering a large office building. Is this technology (which I don't understand) feasible?

author: HackedFridgeMagnet
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 24, 2017, 08:49:40 am
content: Quote from: moz on March 21, 2017, 11:53:14 pmIf you are going to quote contentious interpretations of rules then you probably need to go and find those rules and give us a link. Sometimes you will find they are not what you think.Especially since a lot of our rules are state based.cat5 and signal wire?? better re-read that one too.

author: Galenbo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 24, 2017, 09:30:51 am
content: It's mainly an add-complexity method.It's more easy to tell them a new lie, instead of make them understand they are fooled.Every solar/wind study falsified the result by cutting out the merit factor, and now we arrived at the moment that the even masses (with difficulcies to understand the difference between voltage and current) see there is "some problem" it is time to add some of the shelf "solution", full-color catalogues and the tax-and-subsidize game gets prepared.Small scale solar+battery is fine for isolated operation, exists for decades, for grid connected installations it will always be the system that pollutes most, and delivers least.The title of this topic is wrong. Nothing is "battery powered" if the battery is not mobile.

author: moz
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 26, 2017, 09:02:35 pm
content: HackedFridgeMagnetsuggests I read the rules: You're right, I should. So now I did, and I'm still confused as to how I could run signal cable round my house legally.If you look at themains wiring lawsin NSW anything over 50V AC or 120V DC needs a certified electrician. But when you look at thetelecommunications lawsanything that is or is designed to be, connected to a telecomms network must be certified. The discussion inthis whirlpool threadsuggests that even my offline DVR is out because it can trivially be connected to the cable modem (which is plugged in to the cable... hence telecom network).

author: gildasd
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 26, 2017, 09:46:36 pm
content: Quote from: moz on March 26, 2017, 09:02:35 pmFollowed that Whirlpool link.Bloody hell, talk about a nanny state... Incredible.I've got a 6KW+ rating for ships electricity, but in Oz, I could not unwind a CAT5 without flouting the law... Ridiculous.I love OZ, never met an OZzy I did not like, but this is stupid. Bad OZ.Belgium is not the brightest country in the world, but if you install your electricity to simple rules, using the proper wiring in the proper place and get it inspected/tested when finished, you can do what you want. It's called freedom.That reminds me, I've got to rewire the household 380V cabinet because I removed the last user (for now)...

author: BradC
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 27, 2017, 12:27:03 am
content: Quote from: moz on March 26, 2017, 09:02:35 pmYou can't. So do what the rest of us do. Read up on the regs, ask for clarification if you're not sure and once you've got a handle on it, do it anyway.

author: HackedFridgeMagnet
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 27, 2017, 12:55:49 am
content: You're confused, I'm confused and I have the licences.My main point is that it is hard to know and understand this legislation, so hard to say exactly what things are illegal. Hence if you know what you are doing electrically I wouldn't worry too much.eg. Any signal cable doesn't necessarily mean "cabling work".Quotehttp://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/cth/consol_act/ta1997214/s418.html

author: moz
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 27, 2017, 03:56:50 am
content: Quote from: HackedFridgeMagnet on March 27, 2017, 12:55:49 amIt might be that the law is designed to confuse. Or am I too cynical?I worry more about the asbestos that whoever built my house was mad keen on. We have asbestos board dividers inside the kitchen cupboards, for example. They used to be unpainted, so I bought a cheap spray-paint gun and painted them. So every single time I drill a hole in anything I have to take at least some precautions. Then again, I paid a certified electrician to install a power point the other day and he just cheerfully banged holes in that stuff with no precautions at all. Not even hearing protection with his hammer drill, let alone a dust mask.In good news, though, I now have power metering in my solar powered shed. Which is also a pretty decent faraday cage, because it's made from coolstore panels (steel over polystyrene) and is earthed. A couple of cheap "RC power meters" off eBay tell me more about the 12V power system than I probably needed to know. And that is, I think, even legal!

author: BradC
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 27, 2017, 04:28:12 am
content: Quote from: moz on March 27, 2017, 03:56:50 amWorksafe QLD publish some great guidelines for the DIYer on Asbestos work.http://www.deir.qld.gov.au/asbestos/publications/safe-work-procedures.htmMy place has Asbestos eaves and a few other bits and pieces. Some of the tricks listed on those pages have gone a long way to making minor modifications and repairs a much more pleasant experience.