Older engineers - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Tris20
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2013, 12:45:08 am
content: I've heard a few references lately of engineers finding it hard to find work after the age of around 50 (Independent of the current recession). Is this a myth or is there some truth to it? Also if this is true in cases that you know personally, what did yourself or the known individual do as a solution to their unemployment?Link to an article that goes into more detail of what I've been hearing lately.http://www.ieeeusa.org/careers/careercon/proceeding/srichfield.pdf

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2013, 12:54:15 am
content: The thing is that changing jobs after becoming 35 is difficult unless you can live with a considerably cut in your income. As an engineer you can go in three directions:- move up to management- stay valuable for your employer and become some kind of guru- lose track of technology and get parked in a shitty job (and on top of the let-go list)

author: eman12
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2013, 01:37:34 am
content: Well, to be honest, I am scarey of that age!!! Not only due to my body problems, but because I am afraid of losing my older families!Life is so strange and really very short. We should try to be as kind as possible for that reason!Sometimes I think, oh god, It is VERY VERY simple to create a baby from almost nothing! but it is impossible (or at least yet impossible) to convert an old guy into a young one! You can born a baby very easily but you are not able to make a dead guy alive!

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2013, 01:43:00 am
content: So you're telling me I have to waste my short life trying to bekindto people?? *shudder* What's next, I'll be healthier if I stop eating so much? More alert if I put down the damn coffee?God, I can't imaging living my life like that!

author: HackedFridgeMagnet
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2013, 01:55:59 am
content: mmm coffeeI dont get this graph. Is it just me?I dont think you have to be a Guru to stay as a technical engineer, but you need to stay on top of your game, by making sure you do good work that your employer finds useful.I like working with younger Engineers and I like showing them up, in a friendly kind of way. They are very capable of making similar mistakes that I made earlier in my life.It's not all doom and gloom as you get older.

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2013, 02:07:23 am
content: Graph? I see a snowman in the sight of a weird gun.

author: HackedFridgeMagnet
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2013, 02:13:37 am
content: Yeah and it looks like Cartman on the bottom left.I thought I read the author has experienced all of these expectations.But I doubt if he has experienced "dead" yet.Not that sure about "Un" either.

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2013, 02:21:44 am
content: Must be reproduced in...full?

author: eman12
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2013, 02:22:14 am
content: Quote from: c4757p on August 31, 2013, 01:43:00 amI am jut saying that this world is not a place to be angry against others, the reason is that you do not take more time to atone. So try to be kind. When people do not think that they die one day then they would be proud and proudness causes angriness, rudenss and so on. But when you know and consider that oneday you'll die then most of the times you do not try to be proud but kind instead. Anyway I know that people are different though, that's what I meant anyhow.... Just my 2 cents.

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2013, 02:23:31 am
content: I think I'd be more kind if I thought I was going to live forever. I mean, Ireallydon't want to deal with all the people I've pissed offforever!

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2013, 03:34:24 am
content: The big thing is not to become stagnant in your know-how. Greybeards muttering about vacuum tubes are useless...Greybeards messing about with fpga's and cortex cores on the other hand are very valuable since they have been at it for so long and know all the tricks the young whippersnappers don't

author: Hypernova
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 31, 2013, 03:44:18 am
content: Quote from: HackedFridgeMagnet on August 31, 2013, 01:55:59 amNot just you, that right there is a textbook example of how NOT to do graphs.

author: KJDS
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2013, 12:47:27 pm
content: The last big project I worked on, out of the half dozen RF guys, all were over 40. There are very few RF guys in the UK under 40, so I'll be ok contracting until it's time to retire.

author: JoeO
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2013, 03:34:00 pm
content: Quote from: KJDS on September 01, 2013, 12:47:27 pmIt is the same here in the US.

author: boz
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2013, 06:42:20 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on August 31, 2013, 12:54:15 amThe 4th Option is to work for yourself. This has several advantages:You can justify spending loads of money on new kitYou can justify spending all your time on your hobby to the wife without her wingingYou can claim all your electronics/it purchases/services for tax purposesYour work the hours you want (until you get too busy)No Manager!Best of all you may even make money out of it if your good/lucky.Also ageism is mainly a corporate/HR thing when I'm looking personally for a service my gut instinct is that someone who has been in the trade for longest is generally more reliable and honest (my last bricklayer was 72 years old and was on site at 7AM every morning)

author: PA4TIM
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2013, 07:01:27 pm
content: Quote from: free_electron on August 31, 2013, 03:34:24 amYou mean something like this guy

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 02, 2013, 07:22:39 pm
content: Quote from: free_electron on August 31, 2013, 03:34:24 amThis is one of the reasons that people in the technical fields ought to be paid a lot more.With respect to other professions, the only people who need to continually keep up to date with the latest technologies more than engineers are software developers.I've encountered so many older folks who let their skills get stagnant but never got into management. That is a very tough spot to be in. Very tough indeed.

author: washburn41
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: September 02, 2013, 07:50:36 pm
content: This a very good site. I am so glad I joined.

author: Dr. Frank
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2013, 08:16:46 pm
content: Quote from: PA4TIM on September 02, 2013, 07:01:27 pmBob Pease also had been sacked by National, in the end.T.I. swallowed National afterwards, serves them right.

author: Bored@Work
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2013, 08:40:35 pm
content: Quote from: Dr. Frank on September 02, 2013, 08:16:46 pmThat was probably part of tarting up the bride so National looked more attractive to a buyer like TI. It would be interesting to know if TI had a hand in it or were caught by surprise.

author: A Hellene
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2013, 08:44:30 pm
content: So, outsourcing and downsizing of the occidentalhealthyengineering sector has always beenthe plan; and not merelythe side effectof the seemingly "bad choices" of the (invariably handsomely compensated) CEOs during the last two decades, as the --always truthful--Media of Mass Deceptionhave been struggling to present that awful situation to their gullible customers...This might also explain whythe salaries(as well as andthe educational standards) of the engineers and the technicians have gradually become equal to those of the cleaning ladies (without meaning to diminish the significance of the work of the latter ones). After all, just look at the quality of the "engineers" the educational institutions are spitting out today: Their eduction is oriented rather in their marketing skills than in actual engineering. You cannot rewire a student's mind to excel in both these two different and competing poles. Quoting a highly estimated acquaintance of mine,"The only engineers who get promoted to management are the ones who can be spared. The real walking disasters are the ones who think they got promoted because they were good."It seems that the ninety years oldPhoebus CartelPlanned Obsolescence guidelines (of those who have always been trying to manipulate that "free market" of ours) have finally found their way through our global society's legislating systems to impose their rules.../rant-George

author: eman12
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2013, 09:48:15 pm
content: Quote from: c4757p on August 31, 2013, 02:23:31 amReally? That interesting for me!I would like to live forever as well, but not when all my families and friends are eaten by it and I am not able to do something!!I wish I was able to be born in the next ages when the scientists are probably able to solve the problem the OP mentioned and of course the problem of death!Anyway I hope all you guys have a very long and sweet life...

author: MacAttak
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 03, 2013, 12:11:19 am
content: You don't have to work for "the company" your entire life. Once you have the experience and the reputation to back you up, there is always consulting.Consulting didn't take nearly as bad a hit in 2008 as other sectors. Our consulting practice grew by 20% in that year (average growth for past 7 years has been 30%-40%). Never had to lay anyone off yet either. A few had to be fired (for good reasons), but not any layoffs.Consulting is also FAR more personally rewarding and better paying too. And you never get stuck in a shithole for too long. No matter how bad of an environment a particular client runs, you will always have a light at the end of the tunnel - when the contract ends and you can move along to something more pleasant.Of course the flip side is that as a consultant you cannot miss a step when it comes to continuing education. I have to effectively re-learn the majority of my craft nearly every two years because it changes so damned fast. Many people are turned off by this - but I love to learn new things (makes you not feel as old), so I see it as a pro not a con.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2013, 12:43:48 am
content: Quote from: Dr. Frank on September 02, 2013, 08:16:46 pmthat is incorrect ....there was a mutual agreement between national and Bob , the details of which are confidential. he was kept on as consultant for many projects.like Bored@ said : pimping the tart was probably one of the reasons. National shaved quite a bit to prepare for a takeover.

author: edavid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2013, 04:10:27 am
content: Quote from: free_electron on September 03, 2013, 12:43:48 amAfter he "retired", he could have gotten a job anywhere else, or become a consultant, or really retired, and he chose to keep working at National, so he can't have been too unhappy with the deal, whatever it was.But OP, you should carefully consider the story of Brian Reid...

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2013, 04:36:25 am
content: Like i said, it was a mutual agreement ...

author: Dr. Frank
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2013, 05:03:06 am
content: Quote from: free_electron on September 03, 2013, 04:36:25 amYou're right, nobody else than Bob Pease and the management of former National management did know the details..And Bob Pease was a real gentleman, obviously, to keep that as a secret.In our company, during the so called 'crisis' in 2009, it was in fact a sales-crisis, there were also 'mutual agreements' in the engineering, which meant that people had to leave the company (a more noble expression for that procedure) and received a dismissal wage.Very logical! And the effect?In the next two years we could not finish one big project in time, and that same management had to hire engineers from foreign sites to get it running.Great deal!

author: Tris20
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2013, 03:33:42 pm
content: I take it the Brian Reid reference was related to his loss of stock options at Google?Getting quite an interesting mix of stories here.Sounds like when my lifeclock goes red I'll need to hit the books and/or aim for a consultancy role.Not quite the career-span I had in mind tbh. I know starting salaries for EE grads are about £22-27k. I graduate at 28 so that gives me only about 12-22 years in the field

author: edavid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2013, 03:34:02 pm
content: QuoteBut exactly what does that mean to you? Even when someone gets involuntarily laid off, it's common to require the employee to sign a fancy contract to get the severance benefits. Well, once they signed it, it's a mutual agreement, right? But, in this case, there's the additional evidence that Bob was not unhappy with the deal.QuoteHe was a gentleman, but most buyout contracts have a "confidentiality clause" that says you can't disclose the terms. (Does anyone know if these have been tested in court?)

author: edavid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2013, 03:36:56 pm
content: Quote from: Tris20 on September 03, 2013, 03:33:42 pmRelated to his gettingfiredby Google for being too old!

author: M0BSW
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2013, 03:55:27 pm
content: It's the same in every industry, I've been driving semi- trucks for 38 Years , and have always had a clean licence, the bosses are not interested in me, I not dynamic, in their portfolio here in the UK, the dynamic one's are Polish that don't have a problem in breaking the law, and will haul anything dangerous without the proper licences I have 6 Years left to suffer , and it can't come quick enough.

author: Tris20
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2013, 05:36:05 pm
content: Yeah I'd notice he was fired. It was more that it lead to his losing of shares that were estimated at $10mill. I'd happily take that to be laid off!This isn't sounding too promising, yet I guess we need to bear in mind that there's only been a small number of responses so far and so the sample pool is quite low. Therefore we're not going to get an accurate description of the situation. It's good to see some people have managed to turn it around into a positive thing by making using of other opportunities.

author: woodchips
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2013, 09:46:02 am
content: This is pretty gloomy. Like M0BSW I had had enough of where I worked and grabbed a redundancy option. This was over 20 years ago and I was going to do consultancy in DSPs and similar. As it happened I also spent some time developing a measuring product and that is still selling now. In hindsight I would never have made it as a consultant.Why? Well, it seems to me that there are two types of engineer. The one who knows an immense amount about one subject, read the articles about EMC testing, and the other who knows lots about lots of things. I was in the second group. When developing the product I never had a moments worry that I couldn't design the hardware, layout the PCB, write the software and also design the mechanical parts, and make them on my lathe and mill. What about you?Since then my knowledge of modern gate arrays and software has deteriorated to zero. In the 90s up upgraded all my design tools to Windows 95, but the silly hassles, being forced into changing work habits, crashed computers in the end just proved too much. I still run all the original DOS based design tools I started out with. Added to this is the phenomenon of surface mount. I am 59, and any smaller contacts than 0.050" I just can't see to solder. This limits my new designs to the older Microchip parts, they are the only manufacturer still making DIP and SOIC parts. I would love to use the MSP430, just can't see them to solder.So for me designing and manufacturing and selling my own products was the way to go. I simply couldn't imagine me doing the traveling needed as a consultant, staring at the exhaust pipe of the car in front for 300 miles on the motorway. I also have no problems in thinking up new possible products. The great thing about you doing everything is that this really doesn't cost very much in cash terms.What to make? Well, another forum has someone asking if anyone can make a timer for cross country running, logging in and out of check points and similar. Simple little task, once the data capture problem has been solved. In the old days you would have used a Psion Workabout to prototype it, not certain what you use now, but a Raspberry Pi is probably not it. What other possibilities then? The UK army has just stopped using the Clansman radio system, buy apparently the contract to supply replacement batteries is still running, resulting in lots, thousands, of new NiCd batteries on the market. They must have a use? Wind and solar power, this has to be an upcoming technology, but you still can't actually buy anything to utilise it. What about a replacement roof tile, or four, with a built in wind generator? Anyone who has been on a house roof knows that the wind is always blowing, so why not use it? Car electronics is now at the ridiculous level, what about some simple diagnostic tools? There is a good market in old test equipment, try repairing that. This brings me to possibly the most important tip, go to sales. Until you see what gets sold you won't believe what bargains are there to be had by the more technically savvy. There are auctions all over the country, most are on line.I realise this isn't very far up the technology ladder, very much a bottom feeder in fact. If it isn't for you then don't do it. But, age gives you a very broad amount of knowledge which can be used in all sorts of areas. The fact that you can drive a multimeter makes you a far better repairer of a central heating system than some plumber. Whilst paying the bills with these jobs you can be developing things you want to do.Stay interested, be one of the people whose 20 years experience is 20 years, not 1 year repeated 20 times. Buy books, go to charity shops and similar where anything technical doesn't sell, and costs peanuts. Collect test equipment, because that is your eyes into the world of electronics.Comments?

author: woodchips
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 06, 2013, 06:23:54 pm
content: There is another similar post about what use is formal education in this thread.There is also a request for information about soft starting an induction motor. This refers to another web sitehttp://www.waterfront-woods.com/Articles/phaseconverter.htmThat explains static and rotary phase converters. If you think that formal education isn't needed, or you think you can work through simple phasor diagrams then write a critique of the article, what is good, if anything, what is bad, if anything, what has been left out, if anything.

author: edavid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 06, 2013, 08:19:46 pm
content: Quote from: DiligentMinds.com on September 06, 2013, 08:06:28 pmWhoa, do you really think there are many MIT EE grads who are like that? (Just an example, there are many good schools.)Maybe the good grads don't want to interview at your company

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 06, 2013, 08:41:16 pm
content: I know I sure don't now... God, I know it's fashionable to complain about how bad schools are, but we're notallcomplete idiots...

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 06, 2013, 09:30:51 pm
content: I would agree that many schools don't really prepare students, though I of course don't have the experience to say "most". But there are a lot of us whodohave the "passion for engineering" that will allow us to be successful.Quote from: DiligentMinds.com on September 06, 2013, 09:18:16 pmMaybe in the past, but I go to a pretty generic state school that is overall pretty shitty, and even there I have not found this to be the case. The only people who act like this are the asshole labbies who are really only students themselves.I understand your criticisms. But please remember that even though some of us have definitely learned nothing more than how to pass our tests, there are many who really like what we do and take it as seriously as any greybeard. And while you might not be one of them, the people who immediately assume we are "young punks that know nothing but think we know everything" can be very overwhelming and depressing and seem to be rather common. Try not to let some bad experiences turn into a generalized prejudice.

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 06, 2013, 09:56:16 pm
content: Quote from: DiligentMinds.com on September 06, 2013, 09:47:39 pmHellno. If my professor teaches me something that I know is wrong, I will take the time to discuss it with him. I'm paying him alotof money to teach me real information. All of my professors up to this point have been amenable to taking this time, and many of my friends who are studying at different schools across the country have found the same thing. If the bullshit still made it through to the test, you can bet your ass I will answer the questioncorrectly, and if I am marked off for it, pursue the matter as far and high as I need to. And I am not alone in this.Maybe things were different when you were in school. Being in a position to hire for a technology-oriented position, you should follow recent developments in both technology and education enough to be aware that things are not always this way anymore.We're not all ass-licking suckups, stop acting like we are. This whole "you're being trained to obey, like sheep" meme is very patronizing. And we're not that fragile either, so lose the "psychologically damaging" crap.

author: ElectroIrradiator
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 06, 2013, 10:08:42 pm
content: Quote from: DiligentMinds.com on September 06, 2013, 09:47:39 pmBack in the day my profs gave bonus exam points for creative and unusual (but still correct) answers to exam questions. We were allowed to go crazy if we dared and thought we were able to pull it off, particularly at oral exams. This was encouraged, and it wasrepeatedlyinstilled in us to be on the lookout for the odd, unexplained behavior in experiments, measurement data etc.One of my mentors used to paraphrase Fermi: If a test result conforms to theory, then you have made a measurement. If it doesn't, then you may have made a discovery.The tenured profs were always keeping an eye out for students will above average practical and lab skills, as potential PhD candidates.Of course this was in Denmark, years ago. Things may have changed since then...[Actually the natural science departments at the universities in Denmark are complaining about the lacking skill levels in the students these days, compared to the olden days...]

author: ElectroIrradiator
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 06, 2013, 11:15:56 pm
content: Quote from: DiligentMinds.com on September 06, 2013, 10:52:00 pmEasy to explain: The combination of personality traits you are looking for, is somewhat rare. An online forum like this one exaggerates our numbers, but on the ground we are few and far in between. Always were, always will be. I am not suggesting the 'entrepreneur' type engineer/scientist was more common back in the day, in fact I very much doubt the situation was any different.But people are asking for the proverbial self starting, self educating, started-as-a-teen, inspired, creative one man army, preferably with an agreeable personality, and as a percentage there are simply not that many of these around at any given time. Nor do I believe these fundamentals can be trained, at universities or elsewhere. Which means you are statistically unlikely to see too many walking through your door.----Edit: Amendable -> Agreeable, also inserted 1x 'around' for clarity.

author: David_AVD
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 06, 2013, 11:42:00 pm
content: I've observed that some people just think differently than others.For example, a person solves an issue in one situation, but totally flounders with a similar issue in a slightly different situation. They just don't see the similarities. Another person faced with the same situations handles them both well.I'm not sure that recognising patterns and trends is able to be taught (in school or at all). Some people seem to have the knack and some don't. Whether that is related to how curious (and persistent) they were early on I don't know.

author: edavid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 07, 2013, 02:10:11 am
content: Quote from: DiligentMinds.com on September 06, 2013, 10:52:00 pmWhat is your company, and what products does it make? Is it possible that you don't attract the good grads because they are not that interesting, or you don't pay enough?And, are you putting too much emphasis on being able to make a cable? I agree it's ridiculous for an adult not to be able to do that, but how long does it take to learn?QuoteWhy would the entrepreneurial-thinking graduates be coming to work for you?

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 07, 2013, 02:18:20 am
content: Quote from: DiligentMinds.com on September 06, 2013, 10:52:00 pmNo, the system doesn't churn out corporate-bots. From my perspective inside a school, here's what I see: among some students, there is a certain culture of laziness that leads them to "just scrape by" as well as they can. Unfortunately, there isn't always enough direct interaction between students and professors for the professors to realize they're about to pass a student who should instead be wearing a dunce cap. Part of this comes down to this laziness culture again; many of the students never bother to meet with their professors at all. Of course, this is something that needs to be changed - it needs to be harder to pass courses without having mastered the material - but I don't see any bot-churning. I have met students whowantto become bots. But the idea that they have been "taught" that by a bot-churning system is silly. There will always be bots.Also... have you ever considered that either you're looking in the wrong places... or perhaps the job you're hiring for is just too boring and only those cookie-cutter cubicle fillers even want to apply? Maybe there are lots of engineering graduates who are off creating new products, and they're not working for you.

author: westfw
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 07, 2013, 04:06:33 am
content: I don't have a lot of patience to people that expect no more than a college degree to guarantee them an interesting and lucrative job.And it's certainly true that a college degree, especially one in EE, leaves students unprepared for "real" jobs.Degree programs are full of math and physics and whatnot; a BSEE probably gets one semester worth of differentiation between chip-level, board-level, system-level, and grid-level design (And don't forget 7 semesters of "Social Science and Humanities" electives, so that they'll come out "well-rounded"...)QuoteOn the other hand, I don't have much patience for THIS attitude either. An employer ought to ALWAYS expect that a new employee will need to learn stuff before they'll be fully productive. If you're hiring someone straight out of school, you should have a pretty good idea exactly what their strengths and weaknesses are going to be. If you're hiring someone based on a couple years experience, you'll have a better idea on a fine scale, but a worse idea of their background. You can't very well say "Well, we hired you to do an instrument based on an AVR because of your prior experience, but we want the next version to be based ARM so we'll have to let you go." One HOPES that a new graduate is still in "learn mode" and has boundless enthusiasm that helps make up for their inexperience. One FEARS that the "experienced engineer" is set in their ways and unwilling to adapt. ... Choose.

author: Galaxyrise
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 07, 2013, 06:20:36 am
content: Quote from: DiligentMinds.com on September 06, 2013, 09:18:16 pmOf course, but that doesn't mean there's no benefit to the schooling! People with that passion participate in things likeJPL, supermileage competitions, robot competitions, internships, etc. They leave school with both class experience and mentored hands-on experience. If you have the benefit of knowing what career you want when you start university, you can come out way ahead of most people who didn'tandmost people who didn't go to university.Still a long way from the experience that a greybeard has, though. A company is foolish to try to rely on just college grads (even the very best ones), and likewise the college grads should be looking for companies that have a good mentoring chain.

author: ElectroIrradiator
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 07, 2013, 07:45:43 am
content: Quote from: DiligentMinds.com on September 07, 2013, 02:17:31 amHow do you handle people needing constant education to keep up with new technology, if you are unwilling to train even new graduates? Have you considered, that the best and the brightest graduates may actively beavoidingsmall shops like yours, exactly because they are worried they won't have opportunity to keep their skills current?Given the complexity and pace of technological progress, the smart students will be aware it is nearly impossible to keep their skills current on their own time. Even just equipping a home lab to allow you to do 'front line work' is not a trivial expense, even less so once you consider your equipment will need regular updates as the years pass. Then there are the issues with people wanting time for activities other than their daytime job: Family, other hobbies, friends, etc.In my country there has been a fair amount of debate due to companies, who expect potential employees to have whichever FOTM skills they happen to be looking for this month. Like a small startup loudly complaining in the press about not being able to get university graduates with iPhone programming experience.The fallout from that and similar stories seem to be heading toward a situation, where the employee interest organizations build some form of social network. This should allowing employees to vet potential employers on how they - the employers - view and handle on the job training and employee education.

author: Bored@Work
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 07, 2013, 08:30:58 am
content: Quote from: ElectroIrradiator on September 07, 2013, 07:45:43 amI have seen job adverts were the required skills were specified by giving a version number of some software - up to the particular patch level of that software. And they made it clear in the advert that you absolutely had to have experience with precisely that version. Others need not apply.That sends a clear message - we don't even train people for 15 minutes.

author: Bored@Work
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 07, 2013, 08:53:45 am
content: Quote from: DiligentMinds.com on September 06, 2013, 10:52:00 pmAre they? Because that it what the "New Economy" dot.com bubble tried to tell us in the past. And we know how that worked out.Corporate engineering positions aren't going away, many just moved. To China, or to India for example. Where a single company like Tata once hired 5000 university graduates. On a single day.And then going on to publish this intentionshttp://www.tata.com/company/Media/inside.aspx?artid=VmIvXtZDMgU=QuoteJust to follow that up with an "ups, that didn't work out"QuoteTell me again, what was that about the corporate engineering jobs going away? When a single company in India slurped up 60000 a year ...And when your only answer to that one is the old dot.bomb "entrepreneurial-everything and it will work out", then you are in trouble. Because entrepreneurial means a bunch of jokers and cowboys, doing a half-arsed job, taking the money and being nowhere to find in a year or two, because they moved on, hunting the next fad.QuoteThe dot.bomb fraud. Inflate some BS, sell it and run away. If you think that results in a sustainable economy ...

author: A Hellene
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 07, 2013, 11:18:29 am
content: No sane man would ever think of underestimating the importance ofeducation.But, my question is this: Is reallyan educationwhatever is being sold to the public today under that name? Becausethe name alone cannot define a product, a situation or a person; only their actions and the results can.It is a fact that, if the government(s) wanted better educated individuals they could have them by *not*dumbing downthe educational system (see: "No child left behind," etc.). That is because a few decades earlier the educational system was producing real engineers while education today has becomea commodityfor everyone who can afford it to have. This explains why today's "educated" individuals havetheir egos grown to the size of cathedrals, without being actually able tothink criticallyorin a rational manner--or even to communicate decently with their social counterparts. Does this not sound to be another form ofSocial Engineering?You may call me pedantic; but there is a huge difference betweeneducatingandconditioningan individual (or even a whole society). Since everything in life is aboutchoice, anybody could chose to live any life they wish:"Circus dogs jump when the trainer cracks his whip,"George Orwell observed,"but the really well-trained dog is the one that turns his somersault when there is no whip."Now, is that sympathetic dog above (the one that entertains its master and the guests on demand) aneducatedlife form or aconditionedone to do his part whenever he is told to?This leads us to contemplate about scientists, the individuals who represent the highest form of the upper level educational system outcome: Well, it seems that there arescientistsand"scientists."The former ones are the honest and respectable researchers who try their best to make the world a better place, while the latter ones could be called"monkeys with a degree"; that is because these nice and sympathetic animals can easily be trained to be pressing the right buttons in the right order, for example, and to finally receive their certificates of a successful end of their training. But, is this not the definition of a "degree" which is an official certification that the degree holder has responded correctly to a predetermined set of questions after the appropriate education? So, what I am trying to emphasize is that, a degree actually does neither certify that its holder is a man of real abilities, or a man of character integrity; I am trying to emphasize thata certified "scientist" could easily be a crook.To support this thesis, above, let me refer to a recent article published by TimesOnline in 04/06/2009, which currently is onlyaccessible by subscription. This, however, is a copy of that very interesting article, coming straight from my personal archives:Quote from: Times OnlineAristotle used to say that,"Dignity does not consist in possessing honours, but in deserving them."-George

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 07, 2013, 06:02:44 pm
content: It depends on the person's interest. I've coached lots of interns and most of them are eager to learn new skills. IMHO the best way to 'acquire' someone fresh from school is to have the person as an intern first so he/she can learn how the company works. Several of the interns I coached got a job at the company I worked for.

author: edavid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 07, 2013, 06:38:59 pm
content: Quote from: DiligentMinds.com on September 07, 2013, 06:23:05 pmThat doesn't make sense... everything you say is equally true of any size company, yet large and small companies manage to hire interns.

author: KJDS
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 07, 2013, 08:11:33 pm
content: Quote from: edavid on September 07, 2013, 06:38:59 pmJust think, if no-one trained young engineers, what a lovely time we'll have in retirement playing with newly developed gadgets.Oh, wait. ...

author: David_AVD
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 07, 2013, 10:36:43 pm
content: Quote from: DiligentMinds.com on September 07, 2013, 06:23:05 pmOne guy I put on (~ 6 years ago) had very little soldering experience, but I saw potential in him. He got up to speed with soldering in no time.I looked at what he could become instead of only what he could do at the time of the interview. I've never regretted doing that.

author: David_AVD
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2013, 12:15:26 am
content: Quote from: DiligentMinds.com on September 08, 2013, 12:09:21 amSomeone who provides an net gain immediately with no support is a subcontractor. An employee needs to be treated as someone who's value (to you) will grow. How much they grow will be determined in part by the employer's support.

author: edavid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2013, 01:03:33 am
content: Quote from: DiligentMinds.com on September 08, 2013, 12:09:21 amDoesn't add up. You can pay an intern $20K/year, compared to a senior engineer at $100-150K. You claim to have several employees.

author: westfw
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2013, 01:24:40 am
content: In my experience, there's usually enough grunt-work in nearly ANY business to support hiring an Intern for the summer. If they're complete idiots, you can set them to untangling cat5 cables, answering Windows install dialogs, moving chips into and out of the device programmer, or other things that senior engineers end up doing even though they really ought/want to be doing something else. At the end of the summer you part company and try again.If they're NOT clueless, they'll be able to learn other things and be more useful, and you can hire them again the next summer, when they'll learn more. By the time they graduate, they should know enough to be hired as a full-time employee. By someone else, if not by you.

author: westfw
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2013, 02:50:37 am
content: It's interesting how this started out as a discussion on "older engineers" and has circled around to "hiring cheap interns." :-(

author: David_AVD
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2013, 09:09:59 am
content: Quote from: DiligentMinds.com on September 08, 2013, 02:09:53 amI'm sure you do run your business the way you want. I never said that you shouldn't. I did post about my experiences. Sounds like you don't like me running my business the way I want? LOL

author: Galenbo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2013, 01:29:48 pm
content: Quote from: DiligentMinds.com on September 06, 2013, 10:52:00 pmMaybe time for you to invest some time in getting connected to some professors, so they can tell you the names of the students who belong to the 10%.And this rule comes back in every course, every degree. I don't want to eat the stuff the 90% students cook.

author: Tris20
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2013, 03:05:36 pm
content: I second the above point. I'd be surprised if a company decided not to do this when looking for interns."It's interesting how this started out as a discussion on "older engineers" and has circled around to "hiring cheap interns." :-("I agree. I've really enjoyed reading this hijack tbh. The points made still relate to the original argument and in fact it would be poor for this thread to ignore the problem at the other end of the scale as it can provide a reference point and highlights the counter situation. Yet, both of these arguments still relate to the impact of an employees age in the working world, in particular the field of engineering

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2013, 03:08:43 pm
content: Quote from: DiligentMinds.com on September 08, 2013, 02:09:53 amFWIW... unless somebody is actually commanding you to stop doing something, "because I can" is only a slightly better argument than "because I like apple pie".

author: KJDS
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2013, 08:44:11 pm
content: I've been contracting for the last ten years or so, so have done very little recruiting, but when it was something I used to do a lot of, age wasn't that relevant, I'd be focusing on three things, and all needed to be there.A sense of humour and common sense.The ability to work with the existing teamHaving the technical skills, or being able to pick them up quickly.I hate not being able to have a laugh at work. If I'm going to spend a lot of time in the office I want to enjoy it, so the ability to share a joke with colleagues is important. That doesn't mean that there's no serious times too, but it should still be fun.Now I've met a few fresh grads and a few cynical old gits that would fail dismally on the teamwork. It didn't matter if they were technically brilliant, if they upset other members of the team then any contribution they may make would be outweighed by overall team drop in performance. I've met a good few older engineers that whinge on about work life balance as an excuse to never give any extra of their time even when it's critical, though I've also met far too many managers whose primary scoring of engineers was how many hours of free overtime they could squeeze.It's rare that I've needed to recruit a technical expert. Usually in any organization I've worked in, either I've filled that role or there have been others there providing world class input. The last thing any team needs is two leaders arguing about the best way forwards when either way will work ok. What I really need is for people to know what the limits of their skillset is, to know when to ask for help and when to plough their own way forwards even if progress appears slow.Those requirements I've listed above are pretty much independent of age. Whilst age does bring broader knowledge and often the wisdom of knowing that an approach is unlikely to work, it also brings a certain reluctance to push the boundaries and to try out a radical solution. I don't see growing old in the UK as a detriment to finding work as an engineer, especially if you enjoy contracting.To quote something vaguely appropriate, "We grow old because we stop playing, we don't stop playing because we grow old."

author: KJDS
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2013, 07:11:34 pm
content: From today's Telegraph, about the attitude to interns.