BMW to start charging subscription fees to use features already in your car - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 13, 2022, 03:20:03 am
content: https://www.news.com.au/technology/motoring/hitech/bmw-set-to-offer-a-netflixlike-subscription-model-for-features/news-story/091963215ffc80581eb6d52b0fcdd4e0https://www.bmw.com/en-au/shop/ls/cp/connected-driveTL;DR: BMW want to start charging subscriptions for the use of features already included in the vehicle. For example, AUD$29 per month or AUD$289/year for front seat heating or AUD$89 for a map update to the navigation system.I would have considered a BMW for my next car up until this point, but now, there is no way I'll even walk into one of their dealers to even inquire.I'll stick with Volvo where all that (and more) is already free/included with the initial purchase price of the vehicle.

author: MrMobodies
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2022, 03:49:49 am
content: Quote1Revolutionise I hear that alot in scams. I wonder does that mean they are going toforcecar buyers into "renting" functionality and not give them a choice of purchasing them outright?2I find that more like a safety feature.3Let the manufacturer through the software dictate what features you and can't use and when they feel like it.4Now if I can physically buy the features for that car at the time of purchase fine but not on a rental.5What if I don't want it connected up to anything remotely and for it to be left alone?https://www.bmw.com/en-au/shop/ls/dp/Base_CarPlay_au"Apple Carplay Preparation"$450unlimitedQuoteWhat do they mean by Safely?Sounds like a new level of bullshit to meWell one good thing, at least they didn'tuseplaster the word "smart" all over the place in the connected drive url or I haven't noticed.Most of the features seem to have unlimited but I see this at the bottom like this one:https://www.bmw.com/en-au/shop/ls/dp/Seat_Heating_SFA_auQuoteI wonder what they mean by that?

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2022, 03:53:16 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on July 13, 2022, 03:20:03 amThose are two very different examples, although with Google available I don't really like paying for either one.One of my cars has 'telematics' which can track it, set charging times, download usage data, etc. There was a 5 year trial period included when new, and just recently instead of offering me an upgraded 4G modem and a paid subscription, they simply terminated the service and shut down the website. "The upgrade path is a new car"--an actual quote from one of their executives. Abandonware at it's finest. But not my heated seats! That would piss me off.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 13, 2022, 04:10:00 am
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on July 13, 2022, 03:53:16 amI don't think the examples I provided are very different at all. I stopped buying maps when they no longer came on DVD's that you had to insert into the navigation system of the car. Free lifetime maps have been around for a long time and it's not unreasonable for a consumer that pays good money for a vehicle, to expect that functionality to continue for as long as the map provider releases those updates.Kia, Audi, Volkswagen, Hyundai, Mercedes Benz, Toyota, Volvo and I'm sure many others provide free maps that you can download and update yourself. Subaru provide some free updates (depending on the model of your car) and Ford will update them "for free" when you book a scheduled service with a dealer.I can understand things like vehicle tracking as being an additional paid service. It's not a common product consumers would buy or expect to be included, with the exception of maybe commercial vehicles.

author: MrMobodies
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2022, 04:22:31 am
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on July 13, 2022, 03:53:16 amThat's why I like the things I see and buy to be "in house" so it stays like that regardless of what happens out there with the manufacturer.Quote from: Halcyon on July 13, 2022, 04:10:00 amIn a 2014 Volkswagon Audi wanted £120 a year subscription fee just to even use the maps.That has made the portable GPS we used before more appealing refusing to fall for that nonsense.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2022, 05:13:57 am
content: Oh, I pay a monthly rental for heated seats....so when those rented features stop working the dealer pays 100% of the repair cost to keep them going? For some marques, this will be cheaper than out of warranty maintenance! It will be fun to watch them try and claim rental on something thestoogecustomer has to maintain for them (some rather creative contract will be required).

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 13, 2022, 05:18:10 am
content: Quote from: MrMobodies on July 13, 2022, 04:22:31 amWhat do you expect for Volkswagen Audi Group? Consistently performing among the worst in terms of customer service/support, and reliability.

author: JPortici
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2022, 05:31:07 am
content: Finally this is going in the mainstream. Have been in the works for at least 2 years, the subscription based future sucks. Audi is testing this, too.Quote from: Halcyon on July 13, 2022, 03:20:03 amDon't think that volvo won't do it as well.Side note, volvo is being abandoned in europe, albeit slowly for now. They are already losing a chunk of market because they let it known that in a few years all cars will be locked at 130 km/h, people will truly lose their shit when speed will be locked at what the traffic sign recognition sees (this is in the works too)

author: MrMobodies
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2022, 05:39:02 am
content: Found this article about a survey:https://www.motortrend.com/news/subscription-features-fees-new-cars-tech/QuoteI am familiar of the idea of buying something outright and it not to be interfered with behind my back through remote means when the manufacturers feel like it.

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2022, 05:43:35 am
content: So what next ? Subscription based for heated toilet seat ? Not paying ? We will freeze your ass ... worst, you can't flush for a month.Remember, whenever you heard or read ... "own nothing and be happy" ... be really scare and run away ...

author: JPortici
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2022, 05:46:16 am
content: Quote from: MrMobodies on July 13, 2022, 03:49:49 amJust as in the last few years you were not supposed to buy a car with cash, but through a finance company owned by the manufacturer, you are not supposed to buy a car, you are supposed to rent a car from a lease company. Which is, incidentally, owned by the manufacturer.In theory there is a lot of fine print and "i agree" checkboxes in the contract to buy the car, but since the car was bought by the leasing company and they agreed, you are leasing somebody elses car and you can do nothing about it. Maybe you will be able to buy but it will probably be "to order" so that all available cars are for lease only.Or something simillar.we already have reports from customers who had their bmw updated, reconfigured, and put back to stock (they remapped) overnight through the ever present data connection that you can't turn off in any way

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2022, 08:00:55 am
content: BMW had this here for a while now. Honestly, I think it is better than the car slowly disintegrating around you because the turbo and every other part is designed to be replaced at exactly out of warranty. Or Mercedes soldering a light bulb into a PCB, so the entire light assembly needs to be replaced (legal requirement) for ~1000 EUR when it burns out. And it is coded to the CAN of the car, so there is no second source.They can all shove their shoddy practices where the sun is not shining. I'm just going to continue to use my Toyota hybrid until it breaks, which it doesn't.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 13, 2022, 12:35:45 pm
content: Quote from: tszaboo on July 13, 2022, 08:00:55 amWe're fortunate enough to have strong consumer laws for that. Manufacturer warranty means nothing in terms of how long a vehicle or part should reasonably last and whether the manufacturer should replace it for free. Car makers are quickly realising that the old line of "but the warranty has expired" doesn't fly here or in other countries with similar laws. Many now offer 7 year warranties on parts because expensive cars *should* last.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2022, 01:13:19 pm
content: Quote from: Halcyon on July 13, 2022, 03:20:03 amVolvo (and many others) do similar things at purchase. You want to actually USE the Apple Carplay and Android Auto that's in the infotainment system? That will be $400, please.

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2022, 02:48:15 pm
content: Not to defend BMW, but you can get also an 'unlimited' option for US$415. In the German market the fancy extras are usually sold as optional bundles/packets. Anyway, I think German cars have a poor price-performance ratio and their spare parts are insanely expensive. And when the customer, while doing the beta testing, finds a problem the big car manufacturers don't want to take responsibility and try to blame the customer. I'm done with German car manufacturers.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2022, 06:54:05 pm
content: Well, of course. Everybody is going to jump on this bandwagon.As some user said about AI, we won't be able to escape it. Subscription-based shit is there and it's going to crush any other model along its way. Whether it benefits customers or not doesn't matter. It's inevitable. Apparently.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2022, 06:58:38 pm
content: Oh just like Tektronix, Rigol and Keysight.Crackity crack!

author: JPortici
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2022, 07:03:20 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on July 13, 2022, 06:58:38 pmProblem is that now the car phones home, checks the binary and "updates" itself.

author: emece67
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2022, 07:17:05 pm
content: .

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2022, 07:37:28 pm
content: Quote from: JPortici on July 13, 2022, 07:03:20 pmNot after a visit with mr snips it doesn’t

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2022, 10:33:45 pm
content: Quote from: JPortici on July 13, 2022, 07:03:20 pmHa! But all those updates distributed in binary form are going to be problematic. What if some update does identify as non-binary? Should it refuse to install?

author: BrianHG
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2022, 01:35:21 am
content: Hard wire a jumper switch for all the heaters, or relay link them to a mandatory function, like the rear window defroster. Want warm seats and steering wheel, just turn on the rear defogger.But, watch your warranty vanish when something major happens to the car.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2022, 01:42:59 am
content: QuoteAnd insurance due to a modification not approved by the manufacturer

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2022, 02:40:05 am
content: Quote from: BrianHG on July 14, 2022, 01:35:21 amAren't even low end cars now using CAN (or some other multiplex/network) for just about everything to save weight/money? Heated/electric seats don't expose a wire to enable/switch them.

author: Cyberdragon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2022, 02:43:36 am
content: Quote from: BrianHG on July 14, 2022, 01:35:21 amHopefully with that Weber grill incident, it'll make it harder for companies to pull that crap.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2022, 03:23:48 am
content: Quote from: themadhippy on July 14, 2022, 01:42:59 amY'all must have some extra-special insurance laws there in the UK.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2022, 03:29:18 am
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on July 14, 2022, 03:23:48 amDon't underestimate insurance companies when it comes to minimizing whatever cash they have to shell out in case of any damage, whatever the country is.If say your car catches fire and the expertise shows the car was modified in some way, especially if it's something related to the electric installation, you're likely to be nicely screwed.Now sure, if nothing happens and your insurance company doesn't know, you're good.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2022, 03:44:39 am
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on July 14, 2022, 03:29:18 amI don't underestimate insurance companies because I have experience. But in my locale, they have to work a lot harder to wriggle out of paying a claim than anything discussed here. Their long knives typically don't come out until you burn your house down (at least), not over a car. Some crappy companies will try and screw over people with small claims because they know that poor people can't afford to hire a lawyer to fight a $1000 claim denial, but that is a different sort of deal. As a bonus, in some cases their potential costs can be astonishingly high--like tens of millions of dollars for a case where the policy limit was $100K--if they lose the game.I've never seen a policy exclusion or clause that would allow an insurance company to deny a claim due to doing your own repairs or wiring, even add-ons. You can get drunk and hit a tree and they'll generally pay as long as there's not a reason to conclude that you deliberately hit the tree (drunk or not). Your rates will go up a lot.Of course there are probably exceptions to everything I just said.

author: JPortici
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2022, 05:20:11 am
content: Here there is a specific option you have to add to prevent the insurance from suing you in case you are drunk, drugged, commit crimes - which includes modifying your car. crime because it's not going to be street legal anymore. If you don't have it they are going to pay anyway, but then they'll present you the bill and demand to pay it under the thread of suing (it's like 10€/year so no reason not to add it to your insurance)

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2022, 06:28:19 am
content: I worked at a fairly high level in the insurance sector for a while. If you think insurance protects you then you have some lessons to learn. Someone has to pay for whatever happened and the insurer is going to make sure that it’s not them through every technicality they can wriggle on. Insurance is a business and the operating priority is bottom line and profit and giving money away damages that.The scary thing is some insurers have insurance against paying out provided by other pooled investors. That is basically a pyramid scheme.

author: MrMobodies
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2022, 12:20:57 pm
content: I know someone who had their new £60k+ car taken from their drive overnight and they only had it for a couple of months.There were many drivers in the family insured to drive the car. The insurance company started on each person on the policy to see what they can find fault on. They'd question age, previous convictions, poor health to see if it matches the policy. Then they concluded that as the main driver had more than 12 points on their license and they don't insure drivers with more than 12 points they won't be getting anything.I barely heard this over the speakerphone:"It was a mistake how you were granted cover, if we knew you had more than 12 points on your license we wouldn't have given you cover.""You are lucky were are not reporting you to the police for driving without insurance."Correct me if you thin I am wrong. I am not sure about the full details but I think I remember them discussing something to do with a change in disclosure rules where previously if you had points on your license you didn't have to declare them after a certain amount of time passed (5 years?) but after this change the length was increased and the points accumulated to more than 12.After that it was taken off the speakerphone and as the conversation finished with owner appearing calm he violently slammed the phone down and started swearing for a couple of minutes.It went to the underwriters and they agreed with the decision.I remember them writing on the report because it was a new policy with this change in effect he failed to disclose all the points dating back years that he wouldn't have to disclose with his previous cover. He got about 5 points in his previous car and the 8 points in two cars before that for speeding which was at the time over the previous threshold of the previous car but was now all included with the new increased threshold.I never heard of that change and couldn't find anything about it and it almost sounds to me like they maybe making up the rules.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2022, 01:14:19 pm
content: That's about right.The best option with insurance is as follows:1. If you legally require it, go to the lowest bidder. Make sure you can afford to replace what you own.2. If you don't legally require it, don't bother and make sure you can afford to replace what you own.That excludes travel and health insurance which are essential if you live or travel in a 3rd world country (like America) and property insurance.Buying any £60k car is a risk. Buy a £5k car and have enough cash left to buy another £5k. Job done!

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2022, 01:38:44 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on July 14, 2022, 06:28:19 amIn my experience insurance companies vary quite a bit in how much hardball they are willing to play. I tell people to avoid any insurance company with "and Marine" in their name because those companies seem to be the most outrageous--probably because the wild world of international admiralty law has infested their culture. But depending on local laws and whether the insured has good counsel, the game of hardball can be very dangerous for them.If what I'm reading from UK posters is typical, your laws are different enough that at least some of the insurance companies think they can get away with this sort of treatment of their insureds. Here they typically wouldn't dare try to withhold coverage on an unrelated issue as they know they have to work a lot harder than that. The laws vary by state, but I'm not aware of any of them that would allow an insurance company to rescind a policy and deny theft coverage based on DL points. There's no nexus between the two issues. What they might do is try to show that the insured collaborated in the theft somehow. I remember a disturbing case where one "and Marine" insurance company got out of paying a building fire claim by 'assisting' the local fire authorities in determining that the cause was arson (based on thin circumstantial evidence and some junk science, IMO) and getting the insured convicted and imprisoned. Now that's hardball.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2022, 01:44:10 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on July 14, 2022, 01:14:19 pmMuch better plan:1. Get a law degree and license2. Move to a plaintiff-friendly jurisdiction.QuoteNow on that I'll agree--the one thing my plan can't fix are insurance rates. We have multi-million dollar liability coverage but no collision. If I wreck it I buy it, which isn't a bad thing IMO.

author: ConKbot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2022, 07:54:06 pm
content: Poverty feature for a poverty brand. Rental seat warmers goes well with rent-to-own rims. Can't afford the feature up front? Feel free to just rent it for how long you need.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 14, 2022, 08:08:32 pm
content: I didn't know that BMW was a "poverty brand".But yeah, renting schemes are for the poor, if we think about it on a more general level. What should we conclude if this scheme is becoming more common than ever?

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 14, 2022, 11:55:30 pm
content: Quote from: JPortici on July 14, 2022, 05:20:11 amSince we're sharing; In Australia, most (all?) insurance companies will refuse your comprehensive insurance claim if you were doing something unlawful or reckless. You're basically on your own at that point. There is no "option" to bolt-on to policies (that I've seen) that covers you for an illegal act.The exact wording in my policy states:You are not covered under any section of this policy for damage, loss, cost or legal liability that is caused by or arises from or involves any reckless act by you, the driver of the car or by a person acting with your encouragement, assistance or express or implied consent to the reckless act (such as street racing, burnouts, donuts, driving into water, illegally using a mobile phone, driving at excessive speed).Whilst not specifically named, you can bet that driving while impaired by alcohol, drugs or prescription medication will come under that clause as well.

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2022, 12:01:02 am
content: When the Judgement Day will come, insurance companies will be #1 on the list to be exterminated. They've become parasites on the body of the Society.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 15, 2022, 12:46:24 am
content: Quote from: Bud on July 15, 2022, 12:01:02 amI'm not so sure about that. I currently have an on-going claim after someone rear-ended my car while I was stopped at a set of traffic lights last year. But because of the state of the world at the moment, getting parts for European cars is taking many months. I've been without my car now for over 8 months, yet my insurance company is covering the cost of a hire car until I get mine back. Because I'm not at fault, none of this is costing me a cent (in fact, my premiums this year went down in price).Yes it's frustrating not being able to drive my own car, but things could be far worse if I had to pay repairs myself, plus a temporary hire car. I'd be out of pocket by about $60-70k at this point.Insurance is certainly worth it as the guy that hit me is finding out. He was uninsured and my insurer will be chasing him for costs. It's enough to send some people bankrupt.

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2022, 02:05:57 am
content: How exactly they are going to make him pay? He may have an upper hand if they harass him and he can file a police report.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 15, 2022, 08:50:53 am
content: Quote from: Bud on July 15, 2022, 02:05:57 amNot really my problem. I pay for comprehensive insurance so that all my costs (and any third party medical or property costs) are covered. I don't have to chase anyone for anything. If and how the insurer chooses to pursue the at-fault party for costs is up to them. I would suggest in my case, they will absolutely do so as we're not talking small sums of money.There are several avenues an insurer can go down. Firstly I'd suggest they will send the at-fault driver a letter of demand (which he will probably ignore). Following that they can send the debt to a debt collection agency or choose to take the driver to court to recover costs. If the insurer obtains a judgement from a court, then the debt is enforceable. I'm not sure what powers courts have to enforce debts in civil matters, but it probably ranges from a court ordered payment to property seizure and maybe even salary garnishes (I'm not 100% sure on that last one).The other option is he declare bankruptcy, which in itself has long-standing and serious ramifications.Basically, the way it works here in Australia is that CTP (Compulsory Third Party) insurance is part of the registration of a vehicle. It covers a third party's medical bills and you can't opt-out of it. It doesn't cover property damage or pay for things like hire cars etc...Insurance for property is optional, but you're a lunatic if you don't at least get third party property insurance (that covers the other person if you have an at-fault crash, but not your own car). Even if you drive a worthless shit box, third party property insurance is one of those necessary things you need to avoid the situation I've described above.If you have a good driving record and no history of at-fault claims, car insurance can actually be quite reasonably priced (for what it covers). As a 30-something year old with a good history, to insure my vehicle fully comprehensively costs me about AUD$900/year and a portion of that is tax deductible (as I use my car for work-related purposes).My father always said to me from when I started driving "always have insurance, in-case you hit a Mercedes". And even when I owned a car worth no more than $1500, I still had insurance for that reason.

author: JPortici
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2022, 11:16:13 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on July 15, 2022, 12:46:24 amThat is why they're providing you the rental car "for free".Me, i also have kasko on my car. While the cost of insurance is then more than double i already got everything back. A couple of years ago i was on a cliffside road and i had to hit the guardrail to make way for your typical asshole bwm driver that appeared in the middle of the road coming on the other side after a turn. That or a corner impact which, being on a cliff side, would surely have had fatal consequences. Of course the asshole didn't stop and ran away and even if i had a dashcam taping everything the insurance agent said that without an impact it's reeeeeeealy risky to get the other guy involved, the guy can sue back and even if i win it's going to take forever. I swore vigorously for a couple of minutes then calmed down because fuck it, i have kasko for this exact scenario (accidents on mountain roads due to road contidions, or all those exceptions in weather and vandalism coverages). the final bill was more or less the amount of kasko i paid over the years and i didn't have to put out a cent more. in the end there was balance in the universe

author: ConKbot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2022, 02:30:35 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on July 14, 2022, 08:08:32 pmThey already push the lease thing at the dealership way more than other brands. "Can't afford to buy,you can lease!" Combined with rental features now so vehicle lessors can seem as affluent as possible while living beyond their means. Along with being a rapidly depreciating, so it's basically worthless in a few years. Sure sounds like a poverty brand to me. Vs stuff like Ferrari, Lamborghini, Toyota, Honda, that have a chance to hold their value.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 15, 2022, 05:37:51 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on July 14, 2022, 08:08:32 pmI just bought one, and I can assure you I'm not flush. Mind, it's 9 years old so maybe now a 'value' item.Regarding UK insurance, a few years back I was T-boned by a car overtaking stationary traffic on the wrong side of the road approaching traffic lights. Clearly in a rush to jump the queue. As it happens, there was no damage (small scuff on rear tyre) so I forgot about it, until I got a demand for extensive damage from the other driver. Since I had legal insurance my insurance company handled it and eventually decided it was knock-for-knock! Bastards. So I investigated myself and proved that she lied in her description of the incident, and then lied when her 'independent' witness was in regular contact on social media with here. Nevertheless, it was still determined to be knock-for-knock.That's when I figured it was worthwhile loading up all my vehicles with dashcams.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 16, 2022, 12:05:21 am
content: Quote from: JPortici on July 15, 2022, 11:16:13 amFree unlimited rental for drivers who are not at fault is pretty common with most (big) insurers here, not sure about the smaller budget ones, but I don't recommend them. 2 weeks of free car hire is also included by default if I have an "at fault" crash, with the option of paying extra to bump that up to unlimited as well (which I don't pay for).Quote from: dunkemhigh on July 15, 2022, 05:37:51 pmAlso an excellent idea. It's a lesser known fact on this forum, but I'm happy to share it publicly, that I was a police officer for 14 years. One thing I realised pretty quickly that people involved in crashes lie through their teeth. Even if it's a minor crash, almost everyone lies. I can probably count the number of times on one hand where someone has said to me "I'm at fault, I made a mistake". I think because money is involved, the greed kicks in and at-fault drivers have to attribute as much blame onto someone (anyone) else, as humanly possible. (The old "dark brown dog ran out in front of my car" is a common one as is "the other guy was speeding".)Always have your own evidence to prove your own innocence.In contrast, you arrest someone for assault, domestic violence etc... they are far more likely to admit guilt.

author: helio0centra@gmail.com
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2022, 04:43:56 pm
content: People who buy a BMW or Mercedes are probably not likely to hack it. But if this trend works its way down to mid grade and economy cars the odds of people bypassing the DRM circuit board to power the elements on their own will drastically increase.

author: MrMobodies
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2022, 07:07:41 pm
content: Quote from: themadhippy on July 14, 2022, 01:42:59 amI once ordered a GPS tracker from China in 2013 to be fitted to a truck. I was told to contact insurance to make sure it was okay incase anything happens. So I phoned them and they said to me they'd have to approve it first before connecting it up to the vehicle's electronics and to email them over what I plan to install which was the listing, the specifications, pictures of the unit that turned up. I said it was ordered direct from China and has a built in 3.7v lithium backup battery but in a metal case.They approved it under the condition that it was fitted by a qualified vehicle electrician with a fuse inbetween the vehicles power supply in a dark cool place and to safely keep any documents, proof of the work such as the quote, receipts and pictures of it fitted with the cables and fuse and the contact details of the installer and the company they work for.The electrician connected it up to the with one of those external fuses in this tiny enclosure but when they finished up it was nice and hidden out of the way with the antennaIt was noname 3g GPS and was provided with GPSGate that used Google maps. I found it very easy and intuitive to use, non bloated UI and it had tools to estimate out fuel from the journeys. It had all other connectors for things. I could order like an alert button, microphone and camera but unfortunately the seller told me that they just stopped making them and the GPS unit.Unfortunately they still had to send other workers out to check up on the driver. I suspected the driver was using a signal blocker of some sort when he became aware of it as the GPS would go offline for long periods of time and would reappear for seconds from long distances apart in places around London he was not suppose to be and the mileage we took down would confirm this. When this driver wasn't using the vehicle GPS tracker worked fine especially when other workers used it and when it was parked it at nights at the firm.I did some tests, hooked up a 5v supply supply and also tried an an electric tire pump to the cigarette socket and as anticipated when I turned the key from the ignition to start the engine that socket looses power for about 1 to 2 seconds and that happens to the radio too. Which would help confirm my suspicions he was using some the signal blocker. The boss didn't bother to search or challenge him over it. Instead he just billed the estimated fuel of out his wages

author: janoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2022, 08:11:56 pm
content: Quote from: helio0centra@gmail.com on July 18, 2022, 04:43:56 pmNot likely. 90% of car owners are barely sufficiently tech savvy to change a flat tire or replace a blown lightbulb (where possible), this sort of stuff is complete voodoo for most.And even then - if you do that, it is very probable that an error will get recorded in one of many on-board control modules. And an error code being present during the mandatory technical inspection every two years? Well, your car has just failed it and you have to have it fixed otherwise not legal to drive. Doesn't matter that it is a code for a blown interior lighting bulb and not anything safety related - the rules say no codes, so no codes ...Some of this stuff can't even be reset by simply reconnecting whatever was disconnected or attaching some dongle with software from the internet to reset the ECU codes. Only the dealership can do it because the ECU is locked down too. So visiting the kid down the street to reset your ECU before the check and then putting the hack back in place afterwards is probably not going to be an option.Basically - if you don't want this sort of crap to proliferate, don't buy cars having it. Auto manufacturers are pretty good at watching their bottom lines - and installing stuff that the majority will not pay extra for and activate will get old and unprofitable fast.

author: Dave3
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 19, 2022, 12:41:06 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on July 13, 2022, 04:10:00 amAfter TomTom redefined "lifetime" and stopped updating maps for lot of GPS models, TomTom lost a lot of customers.

author: MrMobodies
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 19, 2022, 02:02:01 am
content: https://www.which.co.uk/news/article/tomtom-withdraws-lifetime-maps-for-certain-models-a2T9A8l7YpLAQuoteUseful life of the device seems vague to me.If only they defined it a bit better maybe something like "lifetime window" or state at least x amount of years of support for the maps?One time I brought another 3 year (they sell them as 3 or 5 years) on site service agreement warranty to extend it after its original three year warranty was up but it will only be for 2 years. They referred to it as the "lifetime window" which was only 5 years support for that particular model from when they started to manufacture it and when they planned to end support.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 19, 2022, 02:58:25 am
content: Quote from: Dave3 on July 19, 2022, 12:41:06 amI remember that, which is why I purchased a Garmin GPS back then. Whilst the battery is long gone in it, it still has free updates to this day (not that I use it anymore).

author: janoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 19, 2022, 05:37:30 pm
content: Quote from: Dave3 on July 19, 2022, 12:41:06 amDid they? Are you referring to the recent flop that they wanted to stop supporting traffic information updates (not maps) on some older GPS models? They have backtracked pretty quickly on that. I know because I have an older GO 5000 that has been affected. First I got an e-mail about them stopping support for the built-in GSM module (which would disable live traffic information and speed radar updates) - and about a month later that the they have changed their mind and it will still be supported.With TomTom maps the difficulty is mainly that they are huge - and simply won't fit into the older models without a lot of work. Even for my GO 5000 I had problems and had to turn off/remove stuff like 3D buildings because the maps didn't fit in the memory - and some parts can't be installed on the SD card.Still not great but GO 5000 is 8 years old model and is still supported with maps and updates. So I guess it is not so hot about TomTom.Of course, if mycarstopped "being supported" after 8 years, that would be a different story. But consumer gear? I guess we shouldn't expect that "lifetime" means the "lifetime" of the ownerRe Garmin - I had a Garmin satnav before but ended up selling it and getting the TomTom because when the GPS repeatedly crashes and reboots just as you are nearing a large and complex crossing in Paris due to running out of memory with all those signs and markers on the map, it is useless. Also Garmin map updates were pretty expensive, TomTom had them (and still does) free, at least for my model.Anyhow, these days I mostly use my phone or the built-in GPS in my car when I need a map/navigation and TomTom sits in the box. Back in the day it had its place because cellular data was expensive (even more so when roaming abroad!) and coverage was spotty. These days, not so much.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 19, 2022, 05:54:52 pm
content: I mostly use my phone for navigation these days but I do keep my Garmin GPS. The reason being there are still substantial areas where I go hiking and camping and such that lack cellular service, and my smartphone plan only works in the US, so if I visit Canada the Garmin is the only alternative.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 19, 2022, 06:10:55 pm
content: QuoteMy Garmin 390LM is 9 years old (actually it is younger but the model is at least that age). Still gets maps and updates.QuoteAll free for me. The 'LM' means 'Lifetime Maps'.QuoteI take it to mean "as long as anyone uses them". If they don't really mean lifetime then they shouldn't advertise as such.Having said that, it iscaveat emptorin most cases. Which is why I will never buy another TomTom regardless of what they promise.

author: JPortici
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 19, 2022, 06:47:40 pm
content: Quote from: helio0centra@gmail.com on July 18, 2022, 04:43:56 pmyou would be surprised

author: janoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 19, 2022, 07:07:46 pm
content: Quote from: JPortici on July 19, 2022, 06:47:40 pm99% won't. That the 1% will hack and mess with everything and anything as a matter of course really doesn't bother the manufacturers.

author: BrianHG
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 19, 2022, 07:12:01 pm
content: Quote from: JPortici on July 19, 2022, 06:47:40 pmBuyers of brand new BMWs will not. Those buying second hand used BMWs will. And it probably wont be the buyers themselves, but the used car lot where they got the second hand car which would be offering the hack.Mercedes to a lesser extent, but probably the same story.

author: janoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 19, 2022, 07:12:37 pm
content: Quote from: dunkemhigh on July 19, 2022, 06:10:55 pmYes, I think Garmin started to introduce this around the same time that I have got the TomTom (who, I believe, had it first) because of competition pressure. For the older models you had to buy maps for like 60€ each time you wanted to update.It also wasn't on all newer models (TomTom didn't/doesn't have it on all models either).

author: janoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 19, 2022, 07:21:39 pm
content: Quote from: BrianHG on July 19, 2022, 07:12:01 pmGiven how complicated/painful it is to update/reprogram anything on BMW, I kinda doubt it. BMW has literally everything serialized, you replace any sort of small module (e.g. the one that controls interior lighting - and which commonly dies and then you are left without locks, lights, etc) - and without the special BMW software with the "secret sauce" codes you can't make it work.For the older BMWs the software and tools are available from various shady places, for the newer ones, not so much. Oh and if anything goes wrong during the painfully slow process, you could literally "brick" your car. People go to such extent as to buy special power supplies that are meant to keep the voltage on the car power rails stable during the long process (the battery would drain otherwise, making it fail and potentially brick something).My former boss was a BMW owner and we were constantly looking into how to get things fixed on it without having to pay exorbitant premiums the dealers charge for it.In short, if you want to hack and work on your car, don't buy a BMW. I am surprised that they aren't welding the hood shut yet.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 19, 2022, 07:33:13 pm
content: Quote from: janoc on July 19, 2022, 07:12:37 pmTo be fair, they probably made the cost back of many map updates from the original selling price

author: MrMobodies
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 19, 2022, 11:31:50 pm
content: Quote from: janoc on July 19, 2022, 07:21:39 pm* That sounds very stupid to me.No locks? Doesn't that leave the car at risk?So they are not offering this "special BMW software" with the appropriate codes for the car to the customers at the time when they are buying the car?Imagine that many years ago but the manufacturers making special shapes of screws and bolts and tools that only them and they dealers would have and I wonder how popular they would be then.I refuse to buy anything that does that to me. I don't think it would belong to me if they make things break easily like that, all set in a way to inconvenience, cause problems and work against the owner every step of the way into obtaining these replacements parts for what sounds to me like ransom and extortion.With the serializations, I take it they don't trust the owners. Well isn't it time that the car owners stop trusting car manufacturers that do this sort of thing.I had something happen to me once with a shower from Triton that a builder put in without giving me a choice where they patented the fittings and the hoses were poor quality plastic that easily broke and they charged extortionate prices for them. I didn't give into it and used the broken hose which caused me a inconvenience every day. I manage to get the hose for £15 (instead of £60) from a bathroom shop that went into administration. Now I always check bathroom fittings for this sort of thing.Just found this:QuoteI didn't see that last time I looked at the connected drive URL.Maybe they updated it to include it.Nope:https://www.bmw.com/en-au/shop/ls/cp/connected-driveI see that is not on the Australian store.In the UK store they have it as a monthly, yearly charge or unlimited.https://www.bmw.co.uk/en/shop/ls/dp/Seat_Heating_SFA_gbThat's nice to have the unlimited option but I wonder how long they will provide that for in future.I found something which I think is also very stupid:https://www.bmw.co.uk/en/shop/ls/dp/Base_OE_Voucher_gbQuoteI wonder who'd want that?I think I will bring my own tracks in which I have either collected or paid for already.2Now if the music is downloaded and copied into a common DRM FREE format to be played on any device or media player then that might add an incentive but it still seems to me like a lot of money to me. On the other hand it is not essential and more like an addon unless they stop their radio playing stuff until you purchase a package.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 20, 2022, 12:19:24 am
content: What is the(1)footnote for the Unlimited option? Are they going to tell you that the option is not transferrable to subsequent owners?

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 20, 2022, 12:40:58 am
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on July 20, 2022, 12:19:24 amBecause you cant read the linked webpage source of the image? (yes the poster was slack in not including it). Unlimited as long as the technical prerequisites are met for this vehicle

author: MrMobodies
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 20, 2022, 12:43:18 am
content: bdunham7, Quite right to be skeptical.Looking for what I perceive as fancy looking words:Quotehttps://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/prerequisiteQuoteSounds ambiguous to me which reminds me about the articles that I have been reading about the UK housing leasehold scandal when they word the contract in such a way where they make it mean what they want it to mean.Someone, I just checked and I did include the URL's or maybe I misunderstood.Heated seats:https://www.bmw.co.uk/en/shop/ls/dp/Seat_Heating_SFA_gbMusic entertainment voucher:https://www.bmw.co.uk/en/shop/ls/dp/Base_OE_Voucher_gbSorry I didn't include "Unlimited as long as the technicalprerequisitesare met for this vehicle" in the post.Maybe I should give them a call tomorrow to find out what they mean by that.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 20, 2022, 01:27:13 am
content: Quotecertainly sir,please select the "play my own music" option in our online store or ask our dealer to include it in your custom additions package,its available on a monthly or annual subscription.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 20, 2022, 01:32:51 am
content: Quote from: MrMobodies on July 20, 2022, 12:43:18 amNo need to get hung up on faux-lawyering and trying to stretch definitions of words, its pretty obvious to anyone who has followed "smart"/connected car (accessories) that they will support it until:a) the onboard modem no longer connects to the networkor with a more cynical view of modern consumer electronics...b) the service provider decides to packup shop/discontinue the product because it wasn't profitable enough for themc) the hardware is declared obsolete and no new firmware updates are providedd) the hardware is declared "inadequate" as the newest application bloated again and wont run smoothly, newest firmware update removes the function for youIts not like this is some new, never used before, sort of service/contract. Its a known risk:https://autoexpert.com.au/posts/the-truth-about-mercedes-benz-ownership-in-australia

author: nigelwright7557
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 20, 2022, 01:45:21 am
content: Sadly its becoming a more subscription like world in many areas.I don't agree with BMW charging for sat nav updates which would have to be updated anyway for new cars. Its not like its not being paid for already.

author: MrMobodies
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 20, 2022, 02:35:13 am
content: Quote from: Someone on July 20, 2022, 01:32:51 amSorry if I get carried away I have been taken in many times before and now I like to clarify things.If there is notice that a feature will be removed in the next firmware update then I can understand that as long as I am given a choice not to install it.In my case I want the things I buy to be left alone until I decide. If they stop supporting something and it naturally doesn't work when external services it connects to are changed over time when it is connected up then I can understand that too. I don't want my car to be connected up remotely where they have remote control over it. The same goes with my solar panel that is due to be installed. I was told they'd have to send people around to update it manually if there is a known safety issue. I'd prefer that and at least if it failed during the update it will be in front of them and not behind my back and they'd have to act straight away.There maybe features I depend on that don't need broadband access to operate that they might decide to remove and add things in it's place that I may not want on there and serve no purpose to me.Now the solar panel system that is going in has an lcd and shows everything. To look further it requires, wifi (no cable) which is a big nono, a phone, "an app" and the manufacturers hosting to view other details, diagnostics run from their services remotely and you can change parameters like the voltages and remote firmware updates direct from the manufacture in China which I am not happy about.Now they can either decide to stop supporting that access to their website or start charging subscription fees when they decide it costing them too much to maintain.My old system had this Sunny webbox datalogger provided with it, the software, system requirements, so I can piece together a computer of what is needed to interface to it, diagnose and check the inverter and solar panels, all in house and independent of what goes on out there.That's why I want the things I buy to be left alone.Quote from: themadhippy on July 20, 2022, 01:27:13 amI will use whatever means I can whether it be an analogue input if there is one or through an FM transmitter to use the in car speakers.I'll say to the salesman like I normally do, I got my own equipment thank you very much, it works perfectly, does the job fine, works in the way I want it to and I am very happy with it why change it.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 20, 2022, 03:16:57 am
content: Quote from: MrMobodies on July 20, 2022, 02:35:13 amThis is probably the only point were I (and others) would disagree. If you buy a device (or in this case a subscription) to use a service, then your contract is with the seller, it's on them to continue providing/supporting it as paid for. This was a problem with "smart" TVs, advertised and sold for connecting to online streaming services (youtube, broadcast "freeview", etc). But they all pointed fingers at each other as to who was responsible for maintaining the software. End result, a smart TV that within a few years of purchase wont connect to the services, despite the services continuing and the smart TV manufacturer pushing out (forced/bundled) updates that would remove the no longer functioning apps.This is becoming a more common theme where a business points to the actions of one of their contractors/service providers and uses that as an excuse for not delivering their product/service, as if it gets them off the hook for failing to deliver XXXX that was paid for. My contract is with the car/television maker, not their contractors. If there is no limited term specified in the original contract then it is for the "life" of the product.Putting up a fixed term contract for the supply of these smart services is in many ways an improvement, as you say lifetime is non-specific and open to interpretation, at least 3 years is 3 years and you know what you are getting up front.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 20, 2022, 03:19:09 am
content: Quote from: MrMobodies on July 20, 2022, 02:35:13 amSome makers have been known to lock off analog inputs, and require "factory  tools" to turn them on, this has been going on for a very very long time (at least 25 years).

author: Dave3
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 20, 2022, 03:22:43 pm
content: Quote from: janoc on July 19, 2022, 05:37:30 pmYes, they did. The internet forums went ballistic.Quote from: janoc on July 19, 2022, 05:37:30 pmThat is what TomTom was selling. It is easy for TomTom to continue providing maps for older devices. For example, the Canada/US/Mexico map licenses could be updated to just provide US maps (which is what some people hacked).Quote from: janoc on July 19, 2022, 05:37:30 pmI respect your opinion but I'm not defending TomTom for making our GPS obsolete; it still works fine and we use it every day. The TomTom would be perfect if management didn't turn against its customers. We use a lot of old gear at home to save money and the environment.

author: Dave3
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 20, 2022, 03:37:11 pm
content: Quote from: janoc on July 19, 2022, 07:21:39 pmI bet BMW and other automakers are working on this.If the automakers could migrate all future service into the original sales, then they capture lifetime service revenues that once belonged to third-party mechanics (and the dealers too). As the dealer service rates and OEM parts are expensive, the margins are excellent. This could multiply BMW's profit per car sold.Now your $75k BMW becomes a $100K+ lifetime sale. The $75k still is relatively low commodity car margins. But that new $25K is hefty service and OEM parts margins.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 20, 2022, 03:46:33 pm
content: Quote from: MrMobodies on July 19, 2022, 11:31:50 pmLooks like Spotify with less songs for twice the price. Because it's a car.Would you like to pay 25000 EUR extra, so that you have a chair that is 7cm taller than other people's chair? Because I have a deal for you for this newCrossoverthat does just that.

author: janoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 20, 2022, 07:19:41 pm
content: Quote from: MrMobodies on July 19, 2022, 11:31:50 pmMore like you can't unlock it because the electric locks don't work. You can still open the car by sticking the key in the door lock, i.e. manually.Quote from: MrMobodies on July 19, 2022, 11:31:50 pmWhich planet are you from? The entire point of this is to lock out independent mechanics and producers of cheaper replacement components. In the name of safety, of course. The only way to officially get the tools and software is to become a BMW authorized repair shop - i.e. only the dealerships have this.It is not only BMW doing it but they are among the most egregious examples.Quote from: MrMobodies on July 19, 2022, 11:31:50 pmThe owners in most cases don't care and aren't even aware that something like that exists. Most people take the car to the mechanic for the annual checkup and oil change and also whenever something breaks. It screws primarily independent mechanics and anyone who would want to manufacture aftermarket parts. There is a reason why BMW parts are so crazy expensive - and no, it is not because of "German quality".Quote from: MrMobodies on July 19, 2022, 11:31:50 pmI think you have missed the title of this entire thread ...

author: janoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 20, 2022, 07:28:54 pm
content: Quote from: Dave3 on July 20, 2022, 03:22:43 pmIt is not about defending anything, I am only saying that after 8+ years it is sorta reasonable to say that the device had its time and they can stop support it. It still works and still can be used fine, it is not like they are bricking it (unlike some other vendors).However expecting someone to support consumer hardware (i.e. not a car or something where expected lifetime is much longer) with updates for a decade or more, especially when it is getting pretty expensive to do so and the market share of the device is minimal today is probably not reasonable.If they stopped the support after 3-4 years as is unfortunately very common with some smartphone manufacturers (and the phones cost easily 2-3x as much than the GPS did), I would complain. But after 8+ I would give them a pass. Still annoying but I guess reasonable.The best thing they could do would be to open the update format on the obsolete devices so that people could e.g. upload their own map updates from OpenStreetMap or something. However, that's unlikely to happen because it would put them out of business - the map formats are likely similar/same even for the newest devices.

author: MrMobodies
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 21, 2022, 05:39:16 am
content: Quote from: janoc on July 20, 2022, 07:19:41 pmSo it is a closed market and they lock out the owner. I would not want to settle for cheap quality parts that will fail and cause me problems down the line.QuoteI have an old Audi and I have been forced to buy old stock and aftermarket parts over the years as Audi don't don't make them anymore but they seem to last very long and has not given me much problems. The garage local to me was not happy fitting them as if anything went wrong with the parts they won't have any comeback for their labor under their guarantee as they would have if they brought it directly from the manufacturers where they cold me they can make a claim.I knew of an independent mechanic about 10 years ago who was finding it difficult and increasingly expensive to buy parts direct from certain manufacturer's but packed up their yard and retired a few years after that. I don't think they were an authorized dealership compared to the garage which got theirs thing direct and offered warranties on it. Their biggest grip was changing light bulbs in certain cars where they had to stick their hand in places they couldn't see and it took them long to do it.https://faq.bmw.ee/s/article/Remote-Software-Upgrade-Installation-Vehicle-can-no-longer-be-started-due-to-error-98s8V?language=etQuoteJoke: I am from a planet where something like this shouldn't prevent a car from starting.https://faq.bmw.co.za/s/article/Remote-Software-Upgrade-Notifications-Restrict-or-disable-SHky7?language=en_ZAQuoteWell that is nice. So it can be switched off for now with some nagging when the drive leaves the vehicle.

author: BrianHG
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 21, 2022, 04:39:25 pm
content: Quote from: MrMobodies on July 21, 2022, 05:39:16 amThis will only be true until a mandatory safety recall comes around because of a bug found in the software which has caused a crash and killed a few people, mandating that update, especially if you ever use a BMW dealer for service. Otherwise you loose your warranty or potential insurance coverage.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 23, 2022, 01:53:43 am
content: Quote from: BrianHG on July 21, 2022, 04:39:25 pmThat depends on local laws. In Australia, it's illegal to mandate that the owner of the car must service their vehicle at a dealer at the risk or voiding warranties. As a consumer, you can take your car to any suitably qualified person (even if it's your uncle who happens to be a qualified mechanic) and your warranty and any post-warranty protections remain intact.In the case there is such a serious malfunction of a vehicle, the manufacturer would be forced to contact owners and provide a remedy for free (such as what occurred with the whole Takata airbag thing).

author: BrianHG
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2022, 03:32:37 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on July 23, 2022, 01:53:43 amHow is a suitably qualified person supposed to change the firmware on the car's computer because it's software was found to accidentally disable the passenger airbag, or lock on the throttle of the cruise control, or mess with the tail lights, or overcharge the lithium batteries causing occasional fires? Yes, for the recall, BMW will have to provide update repairs for free, but that is not my point. Its that when they do, if you wanted to stay on an earlier firmware for certain features, you cannot. Otherwise risk an accident which an insurer will see that you deliberately avoided the recall.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2022, 05:52:26 am
content: Quote from: BrianHG on July 23, 2022, 03:32:37 amYes, this is a similar issue with bundling software/OS/UI changes. You can have the bit you want (safety/security) but only if you accept all the bits you don't want. There is no mechanism to require software to be modular/piecemeal so of course it ends up monolithic despite the downsides.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 23, 2022, 12:58:19 pm
content: Quote from: BrianHG on July 23, 2022, 03:32:37 amAt the end of the day, that problem rests with the manufacturer and they are compelled by Australian law to produce products that are safe. If that means they release the tools to repairers, so be it. When it comes to safety, they are liable to take corrective action, whatever that might look like. If you sell a product here, be prepared to ensure it's safe or face the wrath of the regulators. It matters not whether the company is Australian owned or not... just ask Apple... or Volkswagen... or the long list of other companies who have been smacked.Warranty and faults in manufacturing (whether it be physical or software) are generally two mutually exclusive things here. If there is a major failure in a product (including cars) then the seller or manufacturer are compelled by law to remedy it (free of charge), regardless whether or not manufacturer warranty is still applicable.Companies who sell their vehicles in Australia are well aware of consumer law. It's their choice whether to sell their products here or not.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 24, 2022, 08:31:47 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on July 23, 2022, 12:58:19 pmJust wait, until they try to charge you for lane assist and or emergency breaking and other safety ADAS systems. That will be in your car by default, but they will only enable it if you pay subscription. That's when the shit will hit the fan with the lawmakers. It is probably cheaper to build less type of cars with less versions of the packages otherwise you either have to build them in later, or the lead time will be higher. Which is already 9 months to get a new car as I hear. Reminds me of the waiting times in the USSR where you had to wait years to get a car, we are slowly getting there.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 25, 2022, 01:26:22 am
content: Quote from: tszaboo on July 24, 2022, 08:31:47 amI don't see that happening. Vehicle standards and regulations aside, manufacturers rely heavily on their ANCAP/Euro NCAP safety ratings to sell their vehicles. I can't see those assessment bodies giving points to vehicles which don't, by default, have these safety features available to all who buy them.Plus, the bad publicity that one would get for putting profits ahead of safety wouldn't sit well.That also opens up an entirely new can of worms should a safety system fail to activate because of some administrative error (relating to payment or otherwise) which then results in the injury or death of a person. I'd suggest this isn't a risk car makers would be willing to undertake.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2022, 01:39:57 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on July 25, 2022, 01:26:22 amBoeing tried making a certain safety indicator optional on their 737 Max, that only added to the MCAS PR nightmare they had.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2022, 01:49:11 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on July 25, 2022, 01:26:22 amUh sure, but most of those features are already optional on most current vehicles (just that you buy the option(s) when you buy the car instead of having them by subscription). The Euro NCAP ratings have specfic points about assistive technologies, but a manufacturer can absolutely make these optional. They just need to tell customers what ratings are depending on the options you buy, and of course ads will give the most favorable ratings (with all options), with just a small footnote.The "only" difference (which is a very general issue there) is that subscription-based features may get disabled *without the owner fully knowing it*, but I'm pretty sure the owner is made legally responsible for checking that their subscription is valid. Only in case of a technical fuck-up would the manufacturer be held responsible. Not that it won't happen...

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 25, 2022, 04:56:59 am
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on July 25, 2022, 01:49:11 amSure they are "optional" in the sense that there are different "spec" of models, but each model is judged individually. Most people expect 4, if not 5 stars, which you won't get if those options are missing.

author: SL4P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2022, 07:29:46 am
content: In Australia and many countries, we don’t ‘need’ heated seats, yet I’m carting around 2kg of hardware for a feature I’ll never use…Over a modest vehicle life of 200,000km, that means I’ve provided fuel for 400,000 kg-km of baggage.So, at a billing rate of $1.10 / litre, that adds up to a LOT of money that BMW have to rebate.Even at a low 5l/100km… I’d like a 50% discount on my vehicle please.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2022, 10:42:04 am
content: QuoteDacia Duster barely scraped 3 stars, but people buy it. I imagine that if some motor scored 1 star it would sell at the right price. AFAIA, NCAP is just a test and report thing, not legislation.Hmmm. So suppose some car with all options gets the full 5 stars, and with the options removed it's a 3-start. They could sell that as a 3-star and point out that if you just pay the £50/month or whatever you can make it a 5-star. I'm sure that would sell better than the reverse.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2022, 09:56:56 pm
content: Quote from: dunkemhigh on July 25, 2022, 10:42:04 amThe safety ratings have become very heavily weighted by the "smart" features.Quote from: ANCAPThis popular/mass market model also gets 1 star in europe, but then....Quote from: ANCAPThose assistive functions make the vehicle barely safer statistically, but the rating jumped from 1 to 3 stars. So its all a bit silly.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 25, 2022, 10:35:53 pm
content: Sounds like I got beat to the party. Again.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 26, 2022, 01:04:16 am
content: Quote from: dunkemhigh on July 25, 2022, 10:42:04 amYou're right, however it's a huge marketing tool. Car manufacturers boast about their safety rating in advertisements all the time. Aside from fuel efficiency and affordability, safety features are often a major consideration when purchasing a new car.Not surprisingly, some of the lowest rated cars on the market are some of the least popular makes and models including LDV, Foton, Mahinda and Citroen. I know stats can tell a different story depending on how you look at it, but I think there a reasons why people aren't buying these cars.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 26, 2022, 02:29:44 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on July 26, 2022, 01:04:16 amThe citroen example is interesting as they have a common platform with other (almost identical) vehicles in the PSA group. But being assessed in different years, they have quite different testing/scoring methodologies.https://www.ancap.com.au/safety-ratings/peugeot/2008/2a6adehttps://www.ancap.com.au/safety-ratings/citroen/c4/44b203Built on the same platform I'd be surprised if those two models used different safety systems, yet one scored what you called "low" while the other is "perfect" (same in euro ncap). The star rating is coarse, and increasing disconnected from safety.

author: Ranayna
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2022, 09:30:24 am
content: Stuff like this, essentially paying for software unlock for parts that are already in the car, has been done for quite some time now.New is only the *option* of paying by subscription. You can still pay a one time fee to permanently unlock the feature.I wonder though, how this now works when you sell the car?I would not be surprised if there is a clause somewhere, that the account associated to all the unlocks cannot be transferred. Which would mean the buyer of the used car would have to pay for the unlocks again...

author: MrMobodies
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2022, 10:57:53 pm
content: Quote from: Ranayna on July 28, 2022, 09:30:24 amMaybe they might think of adding incentives to try and persuade the buyer with "rewards" into buying their brand by offering to transfer these one time paid for features that the buyer paid for to their next car either for "free" or a "discount" to help make up any "differences" in cost.I think the most concerning issue is when they make the material features (like the heated seats) in the car "subscription only" when they feel they haven't sucked enough people in this model of charging.

author: onsenwombat
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2022, 01:53:21 am
content: Although I deeply loathe everything being pushed towards subscription-based services, there's certain situations where it could be justified. That is, if there's relevant content increments, and/or the particular service is something that actually takes resources from the provider to maintain. Heated seats don't score particularly high on that scale.Unfortunately though, this is the way nigh everything appears to be heading, whether we like it or not. In next week's episode we are unable to open our home door 2AM as our subscription ran out and there was an issue processing the renewal. Just kindly wait until tomorrow or so while our ticket is being handled.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2022, 02:57:43 am
content: The bottom line is, we'll own nothing.But I highly doubt we're going to be happy about it.

author: MrMobodies
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 29, 2022, 05:48:36 am
content: Joke: They'll drown out and disguise people's unhappiness with their adverts of healthy looking, happy, smiling people playing around with the gadgets inside their cars showing how it improves their life and makes their driving easier and safer.I can imagine just like with the legal parts they rush over at the end of the adverts with the terms and conditions they'll put the subscription details in its place where the advert would contain one very low fancy price in big bold writing followed by an asterisk but for the minimal features that they only mention in the small print that they rush over.

author: BrianHG
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 31, 2022, 01:03:32 am
content: Hurray:I mean, can this guy charge Tesla for the extra dead weight he now must carry around in his car?It costs money in electricity to carry the larger battery weight.Looks like you need to twitter to get Tesla to reverse their limiter patch.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 31, 2022, 01:13:05 am
content: Well, uh. Of course!Car options, when we had to buy them, used to actually be uh, physically not there if you didn't buy them. For the most part.That was even a strategy to get lighter cars when you didn't need some of the options.If everything is physically there, but enabled through software, then you're just carrying dead weight indeed. And more weight in a vehicle = more energy needed for the same mileage.Money, OTOH, is uh... weightless.

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 31, 2022, 11:12:32 am
content: It's not just driving the additional weight of options around you didn't buy or subscribe (there goes the green washing down the drain). Those options can also break and screw up other stuff. For example, a cable from/to the controller unit for the heated seats shorts to ground and the CAN bus is dead. So you have to pay to get something fixed you didn't buy. Remember: What's not there can't break down.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 31, 2022, 11:40:04 am
content: On my Golf I've enabled the tyre pressure monitoring, which isn't included as standard (or maybe even as an option) and is just software - it checks the relative rotation of each wheel rather than queried any sensor, so it's a hidden software switch to enable it.The car is 13 years old.I am also reminded that test equipment has done this for a long time - there are mega-threads on here on enabling paid options in scopes from the turn of the century. So having built-in but disabled options isn't new.The difference with this BMW stuff is firstly the idea of a subscription (but we're also use to that with, for instance, satnavs), and this thing about the Tesla batteries. I think it is one thing to carry the hardware for, say, heated seats which isn't used (my bike has all the wiring and software and connectors for a radio and even the fake radio receptacles to hold the connectors in place, but no radio), and a huge weight to lug around as a penalty.Although... if only 66% of the battery capacity is being used, doesn't that mean the battery will last a lot longer, making that actually a useful unused option?

author: BrianHG
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 31, 2022, 03:51:54 pm
content: Quote from: madires on July 31, 2022, 11:12:32 amGood point!

author: BrianHG
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 31, 2022, 03:54:49 pm
content: Quote from: dunkemhigh on July 31, 2022, 11:40:04 amBased on options, if Tesla can software limit the range of your battery, who is to say they arent software subtracting the range based on age as well?

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 31, 2022, 05:52:06 pm
content: They're not Apple, who likely have a patent on that

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 31, 2022, 06:40:49 pm
content: One point to consider here is that this whole model may not be a good fit (except for maximizing profit for manufacturers) for personal car ownership, but it becomes one if cars are not owned anymore, butshared. This whole car sharing thing is currently being promoted heavily by some in the name of saving the planet.And precisely, if a given car is not owned, or at least "rented" for anextendedperiod of time by a given person, but constantlyshared, then it needs to embed all options, and enabling options depending on the user's profile is the answer. It sure is dead weight and an increased number of points of failure, but if it drastically reduces the number of vehicles in circulation, you get the idea...However screwed up this subscription model is, we need to consider it in a different context than what we have been used to. Just my 2 cents.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 31, 2022, 06:54:44 pm
content: Yes, that would be a good fit for car share. I can't envision having to cope with car share though - it would drive me nuts!

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 31, 2022, 07:19:15 pm
content: Quote from: dunkemhigh on July 31, 2022, 06:54:44 pmI can't either. Makes you way too dependent, which personal vehicles were precisely solving.But this is the kind of freedom that we are slowly getting deprived of in the name of the greater good.If for one know of two cases for which this "works": being a child, or being a citizen of a totalitarian regime.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 04, 2022, 02:57:35 am
content: Now *that* is nice:https://securityaffairs.co/wordpress/133090/hacking/honda-rolling-pwn-attack.html

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 11, 2022, 02:34:57 pm
content: GM Makes $1,500 OnStar Subscription Mandatory on GMC, Buick, Cadillac Models:https://www.thedrive.com/news/gm-makes-1500-onstar-subscription-mandatory-on-gmc-buick-cadillac-models

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 11, 2022, 04:03:31 pm
content: Doesn't say what happens after 3 years if you don't cough up.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 11, 2022, 04:53:20 pm
content: QuoteThe engine management light comes on,limp mode enabled with enough range to get you too the nearest dealer, just, were you'll be informed its an uneconomical repair and buying a new model will be cheaper. Maybe

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 11, 2022, 06:43:56 pm
content: Maybe! I think it more likely that you lose the option you didn't want. But, if so, they seem to have need of much better PR. They could've said you get it free for 3 years, then have to cough if you want to continue, which would be quite normal for that type of thing. Same result, different look.

author: mikerj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 12, 2022, 08:53:33 am
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on August 04, 2022, 02:57:35 am"Successful exploitation of this flaw can allow attackers to permanently open the car door "That is very odd phrasing, they seem to be implying you'll never be able to close the door again.

author: AVGresponding
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 12, 2022, 09:30:53 am
content: Quote from: mikerj on August 12, 2022, 08:53:33 amIf the electronically controlled latch is set to fixed open, that would indeed be the case; when you tried to close it, the door would just fall open again, unable to latch.However, the article is merely sloppily written, and it can be seen that the excerpt they quote is referring to locking and not latching.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 16, 2022, 08:41:42 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on July 25, 2022, 01:26:22 amSo it is already happening:QuoteHigh beam into incoming traffic is dangerous, and the car has the ability to dim the lights, maybe even zoned dimming. But it doesn't do it unless you pay.Here is my issue: Is it really worth paying as much as amazon prime with videos, for heated seats?So far we have the government, the repair shop, the government, the insurance company, your car maker (with predictably broken parts), parking, and so on, getting payed just because you have a car. I'm not a cash cow, and it does matter if I have to pay 200 EUR for a car a month, or 300 to have the same car with Bling on it. I'm sure that people with leasing won't mind that they have to spend 700 or 800 a month for their cars that they clearly cannot afford otherwise. Cash upfront, because I'm not rich enough to pay alimony to bank or a leasing company.

author: david77
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 16, 2022, 08:57:05 am
content: Quote from: tszaboo on August 16, 2022, 08:41:42 amAll those high beam assist gizmos suck anyway. At least from the perspective of the oncoming blinded traffic. People rely on it completely but the electronic assistant usually takes a moment to recognise oncoming traffic before it switches off the high beams, wich results in blinded drivers. A human can recognise oncoming traffic much earlier and react in time so as not to blind others. Good riddance to all those crappy gizmos I say.

author: coldfiremc
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 16, 2022, 06:37:49 pm
content: I think people can sue them for fuel/energy unwanted expense and advertising. All those gizmos have mass, and carry more load is not free. Also in some countries cars are taxed for weight.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 16, 2022, 07:22:17 pm
content: Quote from: coldfiremc on August 16, 2022, 06:37:49 pmFunnily enough, while "fuel" consumption has become a major concern, EVs seem to be exempted of such concerns more or less, as if electricity was virtually infinitely available, produced cleanly and as if those vehicles were so efficient anyway that we can pretty much add lots of dead weight and crap gadgets and they will still save us from the total climate/energy/civilization collapse.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 16, 2022, 08:03:03 pm
content: QuoteI seriously doubt they could be sure for wasted energy. If that were the case they would have to make holes in lots of stuff to save weight and similar. It's not like they sell you a 4 ton car which they pretend is 2 ton - you know up front how much it weighs.Advertising... Don't know about manufacturers but I think their logo and name is fine. You know that's part of the car before you buy it. The dealer sticker, though, you can tell them to remove it or pay your fee for advertising.