How to report an unsafe electrical product ? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: uski
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 08, 2020, 03:39:41 am
content: Hi there,I purchased this product :https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07Y47WVZ9/I disassembled it and I believe it is unsafe for the following reasons :- It only has two small glass fuses (similar in dimensionsto these), I am not sure they can safely interrupt the 10A going through this unit...- Worse, the overheat protection is achieved with a thermistor and is software controlled... if the microcontroller goes bad, no protection- And even worse : since there is no thermal fuse, if the transistors controlling the relays controlling the heater elements fail short, there will be no way to turn this thing off !!! Even if there is an overheating condition...- Also, it bears the Class II / double insulation logo. But all there is between the live ceramic heater and the user is a thin metal mesh and half an inch of air. Is this really class II ?..Of course the unit is not UL listed or anything. Just some dodgy CE mark and random logos.This is really the type of product that works well for 99.99% of people, but when it goes bad, it can go really bad.I would really like to get this piece of cr** out of the market. But Amazon will request supporting documentation. I am located in the US.Is there any regulation in the US preventing this product from being sold ?I am pretty sure there is... but I cannot find itAny experience in similar situations ?I'm pretty sure I won't be able to do it...

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 08, 2020, 04:50:40 am
content: You could send it back to Amazon, beyond that I'm not sure there's much you can do. Out of the things you listed, the lack of a thermal fuse is the only issue that would concern me. Most space heaters lack any kind of overcurrent fuse, they simply rely on the breaker protecting the circuit they are plugged into.

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 08, 2020, 05:32:32 am
content: It's a PTC heater. They self-regulate and won't keep heating to destruction:

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 08, 2020, 07:41:29 am
content: QuoteIf it's anything like here (UK) then there should be plenty if it's unsafe. The authorities might give the importer a good going over if you report it. Unfortunately, you are the importer so you might not want to take that route...If you're unhappy with it, return it to Amazon. Shouldn't be any trouble, but if they do quibble just point out that it's unsafe and probably failing whatever trading regulations you have over there.

author: uski
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 08, 2020, 06:22:54 pm
content: Quote from: dunkemhigh on November 08, 2020, 07:41:29 amNope, it has been shipped from the USA, so it was already there. So I'm not the importer

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 08, 2020, 07:35:25 pm
content: I think that would be debatable. You purchased if from some place in the Far East and they delivered via their drop-shipper in the US. The likes of DHL and UPS are not importers. I wouldn't want to be arguing the toss about that with the authorities if they were looking for a scapegoat.

author: drussell
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 08, 2020, 08:34:52 pm
content: First of all, it's probably reasonably safe as is, especially since it is PTC-heater based.Really the only thing it sounds like it is missing is a thermal fuse for extra, last-resort over-temperature protection and actual proper certification. Thermal fuses do seem to tend to die unnecessarily, prematurely when there is not actual fault in the product. Luckily they're relatively cheap and readily available so make for an easy fix, but to most people it just seems like premature product failure and another discarded item unnecessarily sent off to the landfill. Coffee pots always seem to be bad for that, I've changed dozens of thermal fuses in coffee pots in my lifetime.Yeah, that looks like some generic Chinese import purchased through the Amazon Marketplace, rather than from Amazon itself, which would probably be more likely to be properly certified if were actually from Amazon.If a product that plugs into the AC line really doesn't have a certification mark from one of the NRTLs (Nationally Recognized Testing Laboratory) like Intertek, CSA or UL, or have a special approvals or provisional approval sticker, it really shouldn't be sold in the US or Canada. I don't believe it is actually currently legallyrequiredin the US, but a manufacturer or distributor would be insane not to get their product certified since if there's a fire or something, they would always be fully liable without proof of certification.Current list of valid NRTLs for the US:https://www.osha.gov/dts/otpca/nrtl/nrtllist.htmlSince the OP is the importer, though, you're likely the one to be liable for importing and connecting an uncertified product to the mains, and good luck going back after the actual manufacturer and supplier in China. That's the problem with importing random cheap, uncertified products from foreign lands.Now, the thing is, I think this is appropriate. If I want to buy one of the nice 3000W British kettles and change the plug to use it here in Canada, I should be able to do that, but I also realize that I'm probably taking a chance at who is going to be responsible if the thing bursts into flames.I don't want customs to be searching every imported item and telling me I can't import it because it doesn't have certification. There are many reasons I might want to do that, but if I actually use it I'd better be pretty darn sure it is safe, and use it appropriately, perhaps like not leaving said device plugged in unattended, etc. In the case of a British kettle, as long as I buy one that is good quality and is certified for use there, as well as watch for any potential recalls of that kettle in Britain, since they won't show up on recalled product lists here, I'm probably fine since it's the kind of device that is usually only used for a short period of time, while you're right there, then unplugged.

author: pigrew
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 09, 2020, 05:39:37 am
content: In the USA, most jurisdictions do not require testing by a NRTL. It's mostly insurance companies that want products to be listed, though there are some particular categories of items (like hard-wired electrical devices) that do have listing requirements.Amazonhas a page that details their requirements for products on its website. They say it must "comply with applicable industry standards" which may (or might not) be construed to mean that it must meet UL requirements for your product. However, there is no requirement that it actually has to be listed (unless it's in one of the special government-regulated product classes).Glass fuses sound perfectly fine (as long as they are >125V rated).If the metal mesh is isolated, it should be perfectly fine, too.What about the tilt-detection? Is that some hardware thing, or software-controlled too?If you really wanted to stress test it, check if it's able to safely handle RF interference. If you blast it with radio waves, will it crash the MCU and overheat? Another failure mechanism could be if an electrolytic capacitor dies and the MCU's voltage supply goes bad.While not bullet-proof, it's probably safe enough, at least for ten years of usage.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 09, 2020, 07:16:01 am
content: You really should never run any sort of portable space heater unattended anyway. My most used heater is at least 60 years old and has no protection at all, the grill has big enough gaps that a child could probably stick their whole hand in and touch the exposed element, but I don't have kids, and I don't leave it on when I'm not there to keep an eye on it. Most heater accidents are due to improper use, people run them too close to flammable materials or in situations where they can fall over or things can fall on them.

author: Jeroen3
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 09, 2020, 08:17:24 am
content: Even if said unit catches fire. It still heats the space.

author: Red Squirrel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 09, 2020, 05:48:51 pm
content: I doubt there is anything you can do. TONS of dodgy stuff on there. I would write a review indicating the issues, and that's about all you can do. Hope they don't delete it.What I find annoying is how China can send all this stuff here and don't need to go through UL etc... but if one of us wanted to make a product we would need to go through all those processes. I hate the double standard.

author: mag_therm
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 09, 2020, 06:05:05 pm
content: Quote from: uski on November 08, 2020, 03:39:41 amAccording to the data sheet for the fuses of your url, they have 10,000 Amp interrupting capacity at 125V. UR and CSAI think these tiny fuses have high capacity ratings because they open so early in the rise time of fault pulse.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 09, 2020, 10:18:25 pm
content: QuoteActually, it's us (rather, you) that imports the stuff from China. They're not selling here - you are buying from there.And, thinking this through a bit, that the stuff doesn't pass approvals generally doesn't matter since you're not selling it to anyone. It's when you sell that the rules step in to protect your buyer.

author: Red Squirrel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2020, 06:18:38 am
content: Quote from: dunkemhigh on November 09, 2020, 10:18:25 pmIf I go on amazon.ca and it's listed, than as far as I'm concerned, they're selling it here. It's not any different than if they set up a physical store here and started to sell it. Why is it that they can sell it, but then if *I* sell it now suddenly it's a problem? There's a big double standard here.

author: drussell
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2020, 07:00:16 am
content: Quote from: Red Squirrel on November 12, 2020, 06:18:38 amDo you think that buying something off ebay that comes from china means that ebay is selling it?You're forgetting that a huge percentage of items available through Amazon are from third party sellers located all across the world, sold through Amazon's "Marketplace".Marketplaceis the latest fad, everyone wants to include sales of everything from everywhere so they can tack on their margins as middleman.Even Digikey is setting up for thesemarketplaceshenanigans, likely to their own detriment.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2020, 07:03:18 am
content: QuoteSo when you click the link on this website that takes you to JLCPCB to order some boards, it's actually Dave that you are buying the boards from and who is responsible to you? When you buy some kit in the buy/sell topic from some Russian with radiation burns, it's actually Dave you're buying from and who is responsible for you killing yourself because the PE is missing? I don't think soThere is a big difference between Amazon selling you Amazon stuff and Amazon acting as an Ebay (or EEVBlog buy/sell topic) clone.

author: Red Squirrel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2020, 07:56:38 am
content: Quote from: drussell on November 12, 2020, 07:00:16 amThat's a bit different, Ebay is not a retailer. Amazon is. And yeah I hate this marketplace thing, I guess that does create a gray area. As a buyer you don't really know where stuff comes from anymore.If I go to Walmart and buy something made in China, it's still Walmart selling it even though they bought it from China. At least that's how I see it. It seems to me the way they have the law setup puts China at a huge advantage since they don't need to abide by our laws and the responsibility falls on us. But if we want to sell stuff ourselves then the responsibility still falls on us and not the buyer. It's a double standard if you ask me. These laws need to be changed so it's fair for locals who want to manufacture stuff so that everyone is on an even playing field.

author: drussell
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2020, 08:29:25 am
content: Quote from: Red Squirrel on November 12, 2020, 07:56:38 amAmazon isalsoa retailer, but they're also now an eBay clone, acting as middleman, connecting you with a millionotherretailers through their portal.QuoteSure, if you go to the physical store. If you shop Walmart online, they have both products soldbyWalmart as well as products fromtheirmarketplacejust like Amazon does. You can buy things via Walmart's web site that are not actually sold by Walmart at all.QuoteYou're free to build something dodgy here and try to sell it to some sucker in China, it's just that the economics of attempting to do that aren't likely to be favorable.

author: VK3DRB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2020, 11:58:57 am
content: We in the West need to wake up. We should not put up with dangerous goods entering our countries, but we do.If I sell something dangerous and someone dies, I could go to jail. There are clearly two sets of laws - one set for the rich and powerful, another for the rest of us. If eBay or Amazon sell something that kills someone or is clearly dangerous or fraudulent, I can guarantee you none of their staff or CEOs will face charges. We have bank in Australia called Westpac that has been fined for supporting the activities of paedophiles, terrorists and organised criminals. They got a fine of $1.3 BILLION, but not one of their executives or the CEO went to jail over allowing such activities to go on for years. We had a woman who ran a theme park in Queensland leave with a $700K severance pay after the theme park she was running kill four innocent people on a ride due to a gross lack of safety, procedures, records and training. I cannot understand why she was not charged with manslaughter of the four people. If I sold a car with faulty brakes, and it killed four people, I will be jailed. We need to make the executives of companies which allow dangerous or fraudulent products to be sold PERSONALLY accountable, as well as the company.Now the Chinese Communist Party is banning many Australian goods being imported into China, spreading rumours and lies that our goods are infested with some parasite, disease or other trumped up excuse, when everyone knows it is a political attack on Australia by the CCP. The West should at least start banning entire product types coming out of China that do not meet safety or EMC standards. They will soon get a clear message as they lose a large chunk of their exports. At least our bans will be based on protecting our citizens and not on trumped up bullshit.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2020, 04:46:12 pm
content: QuoteThat's because it was the company that did bad. The whole point of having alimitedcompany is that it's the entity that gets the stick if it does wrong, just as it's the company that reaps the rewards when it does right. If the CEO caused the company to lose a billion or two, the company might think it needs a better CEO and give that one the boot, but it's an internal matter.OTOH, there are some things where a specific real personisliable, typically when self-certifying for the CE mark.

author: drussell
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 12, 2020, 04:49:11 pm
content: Quote from: dunkemhigh on November 12, 2020, 04:46:12 pmLimited liability corporations are there to protect theshareholders.Thedirectorsof the corporation are the ones legally responsible for the corporation's actions, yet rarely actually are.Money talks louder than words and actions, and all that...

author: VK3DRB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2020, 02:39:10 pm
content: Quote from: drussell on November 12, 2020, 04:49:11 pmCorrect.Australia's financial crime watchdog found Westpac Bank committed23 millionbreaches of anti-money laundering and counter-terrorism financing laws as well as aiding the activities of paedophiles. The CEO walked out with $2.7 million payout. If I funded terrorists, I get up to twenty years in a tough jail. The Commonwealth Bank here was caught committing a range of significant crimes including theft of money, yet the CEO left with a $12 million worth of shares plus other pay. If I went and robbed a bank for $1000, I would go to jail. The banks can commit crimes and the big man gets rewarded. But the little man commits a much lesser crime and law punishes him.https://www.theage.com.au/national/victoria/coroner-rules-over-fatal-wall-collapse-on-swanston-street-20180607-p4zk3o.htmlNo jail for anyone, despite these dodgy building companies killing innocent people though negligence.Limited Liability should not allow those responsible to have limited liability for big crimes committed, or when people die. Same goes for importers, eBay, Amazon and others of unsafe non-compliant electronic products or toys that kills or injure consumers. Jail is a good deterrent, not a company fine. The law needs to change.

author: drussell
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2020, 03:21:42 pm
content: Quote from: VK3DRB on November 13, 2020, 02:39:10 pmThe laws are there, that's not the issue, they are justveryselectively enforced.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 13, 2020, 08:50:00 pm
content: QuoteGreat, but how are you going to jail a company?The problem here, which you are missing, is that the company is a legal entity with the same standing as a flesh&blood person. The CEO is merely an employee of that entity and his liability would be no different if you were self-employed and he was your employee.Fine, you say, it is ludicrous that some virtual paper-based thing is the same as a person. Unfortunately, our systems rely on that being the case so that's how it is.

author: VK3DRB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 14, 2020, 12:35:31 am
content: Quote from: dunkemhigh on November 13, 2020, 08:50:00 pmMaybe the systems should change as part of development of civilisation. If a CEO who does the wrong thing is looking at spending 20 years sharing a cell with Big Bubba who wants a playmate, they will clean up their act quick smart.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 14, 2020, 06:20:20 am
content: Yes, I might agree with you. But it is what it is, and the chance of changing that is not very high

author: drussell
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 14, 2020, 04:47:05 pm
content: Sometimes the CEO isn't even a director of the corporation, though often they are.It is theDIRECTORSthat are legally responsible for the corporation, and they're supposed to know what is going on. While corporationsarea separate legal entity, they still have actual humans that aresupposedto be responsible for actions taken or not taken. The problem is that they're rarelyactuallyheld responsible for the actions of the corporation when something goes "wrong".

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 14, 2020, 10:49:36 pm
content: QuoteMight be different in Canada, but here in Blighty directors are only responsible for the process of running a company. With a few exceptions they aren't personally responsible for what the company does, unless it amounts to fraud. One exception is for manslaughter through gross negligence, and some H&SE stuff counts, I think. Mind, manslaughter is usually down to some H&SE negligence.One reason for the lack of personal responsibility may be thatadirector doesn't decide much. What the company does is down to a vote of all directors, so the company might do something naughty despite a director voting not to do it. You can't hang him for that, so it's impractical to make one person responsible for everyone elses choices.

author: Red Squirrel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2020, 07:14:33 am
content: I was looking into it and here in Canada there is no such thing as a LLC. You either do a sole proprietoryship, or a full blown incorporation or corporation (I'm honestly not sure what the difference is between the two). From my understanding both inc and corp require you to have a board of directors, issue shares, etc... so it's a pretty huge deal to manage and you basically need a team of people to fill all those roles. There's also lot of paperwork involved and the government site does not really explain in much details so you almost need an accountant or lawyer or something to figure it all out for you. Like you need to "file" once a year, and you need to have special meetings with minutes, so I imagine that has a certain format that is required too. It's quite involved. I looked into it as I was thinking it would be cool to start a corporation in case I decide to monetize a hobby, and it would also act as a way to write off living expenses. Like if I make my house owned by the corporation and charge myself rent, I could write off all the utility bills etc. But yeah it's quite involved and I don't even know if that would be legal.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2020, 07:38:00 am
content: QuoteSound pretty much the same as here, except we have partnerships as well (which is essentially removing liability as with a company, but not having to file accounts).A company can be anything from a one-man band to multinational megacorp - they are all pretty much the same, just a matter of scale. You say your corporations have to file accounts once a year, have shares, special meetings with minutes, accountants, etc. That applies to the one employee company here too, and yet many many people run one-man limited companies.Might be different for you, although I doubt it, but here you can't really pull a fast one and have the company pay for your living expenses - TPTB already thought of that one! The company can pay for stuff that's used solely for the company (for instance, a phone line used just for work calls), but if there is any personal use then the user pays tax on that. 'Benefit in kind' it is called. Get a company car and if you use it for anything not completely company related you pay tax on the perceived benefit you get from it.

author: Red Squirrel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2020, 08:55:27 am
content: Oh yeah we have partnerships as well, but I thought that was if you have multiple owners. You can't really have a 1 person corporation though, unless the owner can be CEO and be every board of director member at same time too? either way all the filing stuff gets very complicated so while you could in theory do that yourself, you would be spending all your time on that, instead of actually doing whatever it is the company does. So you kind of want to hire a person to manage all that accounting stuff.For that tax thing I was thinking since the corporation owns the building and pays all the utilities, then they could write off those utilities. You then rent the building and pay the corporation rent. But yeah there are probably provisions to stop people from doing that. You're only allowed to use tax loopholes if you are already a billionaire and that usually involves overseas accounts and what not so you need to be a multinational corporation to take advantage of that.

author: drussell
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2020, 12:01:00 pm
content: Quote from: Red Squirrel on November 15, 2020, 07:14:33 amThere are sole proprietorships and partnerships, where you're basically just registering a trade name so a bank will open a bank account in the name of your company (say, "Red's Hot Dog Stand") but the company's accounting and taxes are filed as part of your personal taxes (or the two or more people if it is a partnership) but provide no financial liability protection for the parntners or sole proprietor like a corporation does for the shareholders (owners).QuoteFor provinces that use a form of the Business Corporations Act rather than the older Companies Act (probably all of them now? BC was one of the last to still use the Companies Act and they changed like 15-20 years ago) you're allowed to whichever choice of the three suffixes Limited, Incorporated or Corporation or you may choose to use the abbreviation LTD. , INC. or CORP. and whatever you choose becomes the full legal name of your corporation (eg. Red's Hot Dog Stand Inc.) when you register it. You can't then change and use a different suffix without doing a name change procedure and paying the filing fee for that, but there is no legal difference between the three suffixes allowed.QuoteNo, it's not. I own several corporations and I'm the only person on any of them. I "wear multiple hats", as it were, holding all the required roles myself, but that's not difficult, as you really only need three roles filled. President, Secretary and Treasurer. Often the Secretary and Treasurer roles are held by the same person, even in multi-person corporations, simply holding the title of Secretary-Treasurer.So, yeah, I am the President, the Secretary-Treasurer, and I'm the sole Director (there can theoretically be up to 15 directors) as well as the only Shareholder (there can be an unlimited number of shareholders, they're the ones who actually OWN the corporation) so I own 100% of my corporation.QuoteIt is a single page, I just filed the Annual Return for one of mine, "Saturn Computer Technologies Inc." the other day when I went into the registry (basically a privatized DMV shop here) and renewed the registration on the company van and truck. It is a simple form where you basically say if there have been any changes in directors this year (No) and list the largest 10 shareholders (so, drussell with 100%) and you pay the $80 (used to be $25 for many years) and you're good for another year. If you forget to file for two years, your corporation will be "struck" from the registry of corporations and you would have to go through the Revival procedure and pay a revival fee as well as filing all the missing Annual Returns. (Currently ends up costing about $600.) Obviously you need to also file a corporate tax return with CCRA, but to actually keep the corporation alive and in good standing, you just need to file the "Annual Return" with the province.QuoteIt's actually very simple if you have the right structure from the start. My father formed hundreds of thousands of corporations for people here in Alberta from the early '80s right up until his death, starting when the AB government first privatized the "Name Search" procedure and he decided to become one of the first Search Houses, thinking it would be a good way to build up some additional accounting business (he was a CA, Chartered Accountant) to his fledgling accounting business. The searches and corporation forming, as well as stocking numbered "shelf companies" that were pre-incorporated, ready to transfer to someone (without waiting what sometimes used to take weeks to actually have filed with the government and get back) became such a huge business that he soon gave up the actual accounting to instead just help people like you form their corporations.He enjoyed having people come in, explain their particular situation (wow, some people had some crazy business ideas over the years, made for great dinner conversation many nights when we were kids) and get them set up in the best way possible for maximum tax savings, etc. (like pay your wife a bit to be "secretary-treasurer" to help split income for lower tax,) with his accounting background. Your yearly shareholder meeting can be a good excuse for the corporation to pay for a night out at a restaurant where you hold your "meeting" to essentially resolve that everything stay the same as last year.QuoteThat's actually a great idea. I started my first company (the Saturn Computer one) when I wasn't even old enough to be a director yet (must be 18) so my dad was the original director, but I was the President, Secretary-Treasurer and 100% shareholder.QuoteYou'd certainly want to talk to an accountant before trying any shenanigans like that.If your owned a SECOND house and you were renting it out that would be fine, many rental properties are owned by corporations, but trying to "write off" 100% of your primary residence would throw up red flags at every turn with CCRA. You can deduct aportionof your mortgage, utility bills, etc. if you operate at least part of your business from home, but the rules are that it is supposed to be the proportional to the portion of the house that is actually used for the business. If you have one room that you use as a home office, you could reasonably deduct 10%, for example. They generally won't hassle you if you say it is up to about 33%, but if you try to say it is 50% or something, they're going to want justification and proof. You might still get away with that if you're using your whole basement and garage for your enterprise or something, but they're gonna ask questions.

author: VK3DRB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2020, 01:14:08 pm
content: Quote from: drussell on November 15, 2020, 12:01:00 pmNo its not a good idea. It's dishonest to write of living expenses. In this country you'd be done for fraud if you were caught. But people do cheat on the system... until they get caught.I run a business and everything is above board. I don't cheat on anything and I pay every cent of tax I am supposed to pay, which is too much compared to Apple, Google, Microsoft and Chevron who are heavily into the tax avoidance business. But at least I can sleep at night, knowing my taxes are used for hospitals, schools, welfare etc, and I wont get a knock at the door.

author: drussell
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2020, 03:49:08 pm
content: Quote from: VK3DRB on November 15, 2020, 01:14:08 pmI was meaning the part about having a corporation if you're running any sort of business,nottrying to illegitimately wrote offlivingexpenses. Only actual real business expenses can be run through the corporation, but it still saves your overall operation money, gives you some flexibility in some tax situations (not paying yourself more than necessary in a single good year, for example, since corporate profits tend to be taxed at a lower rate, being able to claim back GST on business purchases, etc.) but that's what accountants are for.

author: Red Squirrel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 16, 2020, 04:05:58 am
content: Of course I'd want to make sure it's legal before I do it. Basically I would need a creative accountant that knows how to play the system but still stay legal. Living costs just keep going up every year and I'm at a point where I will soon not make enough money, so got to start thinking of something.Ideally I still need the corporation to have some source of income though, so like if I start selling things, even if it does not do that well at least it shows an effort to make money. I think that is one of the legal requirements of a corporation. You can't just start a corporation that makes no money. I think it's also legal to write off a percentage of your utility bills if you run your business from home. But then running a business from home opens a whole other can of worms as cities and insurance companies don't tend to like that. So it's still a very gray area.Did not know you could fill all the roles of treasurer etc though. But even then all the paperwork involved does sound daunting as I would not even know where to start, like where do I even get the forms and who do I send them to and how do I fill them out etc. You also need to have official meeting minutes, no idea what format of that is. I guess there must be some accounting firms you can hire that would help guide you through all that? Also good to know about corp etc, so the only difference is really just the suffix? So if you feel corp sounds cooler than inc or vise versa you just pick the one you want?I'm still far from doing this but it's something I've been toying with for a while just so I have a more official name to put on any product I decide to release and it does provide a certain layer of liability protection as I don't think they can go after your personal assets like your house if someone decides to sue the company. (Assuming I don't put the house under the corp, that is)