Best meter to help advance my teen to test, measurement and repair - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: jnug
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: October 23, 2015, 02:46:40 pm
content: Before I even ask this question, I should tell you guys how impressed I am with this forum. The amount of good information here is ridiculous....as in almost too good to be true.Anyway, my kids have this bad habit of leaving monitors and all sorts of other video equipment on first having not properly protected it. They will pick any outlet that looks convenient. Unfortunately my neighborhood is plagued with power spikes. One recently took out the power supply board (at least) on an LG flat panel they had been using for gaming. However there is a bright side in that now I intend using its repair as a means of getting one of them more involved in what goes on inside what for them is often just the box where they take their video.I have the back panel off and while the fuse on the power supply board is not blown, I can already see where a couple of capacitors are shot.Now if it were just me, I might go ahead and discharge and then replace the obviously blown caps as a first step and then go from there....not very scientific I know. I want to use the opportunity to help my son along in a direction that he is already inclined. Son is already on a Computer Sciences path while still having 2.5 years of high school left and some of what he will be doing inside this panel with me is stuff they are doing in school. He is going now to a high school geared to move kids into a continuing education in Electronics and Computer Sciences in much the same way that I would have gone to a high school specializing in College Prep on a Business or Arts and Sciences career path.Anyway the question of a DE-5000 or an ESR is often asked here but not from the perspective of how best to encourage a lad barely in his teens along. I have an older multi-meter as well and you guys might suggest to me that I get a more contemporary multi-meter for him since the Sperry DM4400a I have is long in the tooth.Since one could get a DE-5000 shipped to the US from Japan for about what a pretty good ESR that can read in circuit would cost, I am wondering what to get for him and really for us. But mostly I want to get him either a DE-5000 or a Blue Box ESR and maybe a new multi-meter for this and future learning experience projects so that he has the means to test and repair and so that together we can take on more projects. I am really happy to find him inclined toward Computer Sciences and Electronics and he is such a "fixer". While I am most interested in advancing his knowledge I can't tell you how much I look forward to working these repair projects together. He will without doubt be better at this than I am.So long story short, since the DE-5000 seems such a game changer of a device available here for reasonable money if shipped from Japan would he likely get more out of that or would he get more do you think out of one of the Anatek in circuit blue box ESR's? In addition, should I update the multi-meter to something more contemporary than the old Sperry DM4400a?

author: Shock
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2015, 03:50:05 pm
content: The Blue ESR has virtually only one use and is easy to operate. He will learn more using the DER EE DE-5000 though, e.g. how ESR is depends on frequency during measurement. The DE-5000 also is a full LCR meter, inductors, capacitors, resistors and can take 4 wire kelvin measurements if you order the appropriate leads. Note that your multimeter doesn't seem to take capacitance measurements.As for input protection the DE-5000 doesn't have it and the Blue ESR has a couple of diodes. I believe the last discussion was the DE-5000 can do some in-circuit measurements, while the Blue ESR should have no problem. In-circuit measurements in general many not be accurate with other capacitors and resistances in parallel, so keep this in mind if your searching for the holy grail. In-circuit meaning: without removing the component (while the circuit is de-energized/powered off).As for the multimeter you have, it should be ok for de-engergized circuits. But I would look at getting something like a Fluke 117 some time if he is taking things seriously. Depends if he is just comparing mains voltages are present or doing more electronics related projects. It would also become a nice second meter as it's handy when you are monitoring a circuit, have one tied up and need to make another measurement.You should also see that he gets educated in safety especially if taking live measurements. This is a good start:http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/textbook/direct-current/chpt-3/importance-electrical-safety/

author: jnug
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: October 23, 2015, 11:47:03 pm
content: Thanks ShockI think what I am going to do is take one from column 3 so to speak...exercise a third option....I think that a serous upgrade to the multi-meter is in order. The Sperry 4400a is a great little "household" multi-meter. But it is not more than that. It is so far behind the contemporary multi-meter that if we are going to do more and more projects like this together, we will at least need something of this generation.So I think I will do that to begin with. That will give me a good multi-meter with the 4400a becoming a back up. Then I might go ahead and get one of the less sporty ESR's or might still get a DE-5000 or something like it instead of an ESR. But if we are going to be mucking about inside the back panels of electronics then I think at least an acknowledged to be good multi-meter is in order and having two is really a good idea anyway (meaning one and a backup).

author: Maxlor
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2015, 12:35:37 am
content: Quote from: jnug on October 23, 2015, 11:47:03 pmNo, it's cheap chinese junk that probably cost about $3 to make, as evidenced by those slide switches and the unfused 10A mode. You're talking about repairing high voltage equipment, and buying a good LCR meter that, even if it's cheaper than other LCR meters, still is going to cost you a 3-digit sum. That tells me you're not uncomfortable spending a bit of money for quality equipment, so how about getting a proper multimeter first, seeing how it's going to be the primary tool in any repair job? Better yet, get two, so you're not tempted to keep the crappy one around as a backup.

author: singapol
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2015, 03:30:55 am
content: Quote from: Maxlor on October 24, 2015, 12:35:37 am+1 yeah...For penny pinchers but still want usable performance and practicality the following is value for money:Mulitimeter:UT139C- True RMS 6k count, up to 600V, 3.5 digit, decent input protection, fast readout, non contact acV detector and much more.UT61E-Thumbsup even from Dave Jones. 22K count up to 1000V, True RMS, 4.5 digit, can be improved by modding a better voltage reference instead of the builtin internal reference.Input protection is minimal( non existant if you count a few ptc resistors bcos of sensivity of adc chip circuit for precision measurement ).Brymen 869 would be better but if you abuse 61E it does not hurt the pocket.In circuit ESR:MESR100V2cheap and good buy also the capacitor meter combo although both ut meters measures capacitance up to 60k uf and 220k uf respectively.

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 24, 2015, 04:14:00 am
content: I have some suggestions for good meters with decent build and reliability:Uni-T UT139C $50Amprobe series AM-5X0, $40 and upAmprobe AM270 $110Brymen BM257S $135Brymen BM829S or BM869S under $250and I am sure others will jump in with more suggestions.

author: jnug
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: October 24, 2015, 04:35:06 am
content: Yea but those are all real electronics/electrical multi-meters of this generation for that matter. a 4400a is two ....maybe three generations out of current and really the kind of thing Mr. Homeowner buys to have something around to test household stuff once in a blue moon. that is what I mean by a household tester...none of the multimeters you mentioned are that kind of a household tester. That is why I mentioned that was the option I was going to pursue was a multi-meter upgrade.Anyway....getting an 87-V and will probably get a couple of optional accessories like the big alligator clips , the modular sure grip jumpers and one of the Fluke probe upgrades....either those gray and red probes (just don't know what else to call them) or maybe the probes that I think are called "sure-grip" probes. I might wait after getting the 87-v before getting a next tester or meter of any kind to go with it. The 87-v will likely cover a fair amount of ground for us and is maybe 1 or 2 multi-meters north of where I thought I would end up for a multimeter upgrade. Thought I was more likely to get a 15b+ or a 17b+ or maybe a 115 or a 117 at most. Surprised myself.Thanks for the suggestions. I think it will be an 87-v though and then some decisions about whether I just use the stock accessories or change some out. I really like the optional alligator clips and the module accessory stuff from Fluke.

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 24, 2015, 04:02:51 pm
content: jnug:I am completely confused with what you want to do. Do you want a better multimeter or not? The meters I listed are all very capable meters. A Fluke 87V is also a very capable meter. If you are willing to buy an 87V then what is too expensive or too much regarding the meters I listed? I cannot follow your line of reason.

author: jnug
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: October 24, 2015, 08:06:42 pm
content: Nothing wrong with the meters you mentioned. My comment was more about the category of multimeter I think a 4400a should be in as opposed to the applicability of the multimeters you mentioned to my need for better metering capability.There are zillions of home owners who use a meter so seldom and in response to such uninspiring household events that they likely have to remind themselves where they have been keeping the thing stored between uses. For those people, things like a 4400a did at least when it was a current design and maybe still today serves a useful purpose and if they have found whatever obscure drawer they stuck it in and have gotten past said event without plunking down another $50-$150 for another meter, they are ahead of the game. Even a guy on the job with responsibilities that only tangentially touch on the world of the electrical or electronic such that he might need to take an occasional reading might find a 4400a usable for his purposes.Even in my case, I did not feel the need to really explore the need for more metering capability until deciding to consider this a "project" and that fixing this panel or even trying to could be an effective response to this event purely for its educational opportunity and that it might even open up a whole range of educational opportunities for the boy with the added benefit of giving US (he and I) another thing that we do together.It is incredibly difficult to get the contemporary teenager to lift his eyes and his thumbs from his smartphone keyboard or his video game controller or to even find things that have that kind of pull for him. Heaven forbid that a parent might actually be engaged with him in some activity that might be fun today and useful to him in the future. But from a practical perspective, if a power surge takes out the power supply of a run of the mill 32-42" panel does doing "this" make more sense than just replacing the whole panel......EVER?? I can almost but not quite buy two better panels right now for what that one panel cost me and just play the built in obsolescence game the way the industry wants me to play it.In addition lets face it, we are already well into the day when those quite possibly pursuing an academic path in Computer Sciences are less and less engaged in practical electronics. However I would prefer the boy keep a foot or even a toe in that camp at the tender age of 14-15 years instead of already leaving it in his wake. Nor do I want him to leave me in his wake just yet. That is what I am pursuing and maybe even fighting for as opposed to any current level of practicality for this pursuit in an absolute sense. My practical pursuit here is staying engaged in the boy's future in a way that is fun for us both with an eye to prying him away from said smartphone and game controller even if for snippets of time. My choice of an 87-v is as much about getting one that he might still have ten years from now and remember fondly even if only for a second why in fact he has it. While the meters you offered are truly excellent meters, they might not make that cut whereas this one might just given the number of times one might have drilled into him......"just get a Fluke and forget about it" regardless of whether that comment truly reflects the state of the metering industry as we find it.Sorry for the length of this post but I am pretty sure that you just did not see that I was commenting more about first dropping the 4400a out of "our" mix before even thinking about a DE-5000 or an ESR without dismissing the 4400a as something that the entire world should immediately trash because it serves no useful purpose what so ever. For the guy that has one of those gathering dust in a drawer somewhere, why should he replace it with a better meter so that it can gather dust at 3x the cost of the 4400a he already has? The reality is that hauling something like a 4400a out every once and awhile is probably much closer to where most people are with regard to their metering needs regardless of its obvious shortcomings. That is clearly not the case for somebody active at this blog site .Secondarily I think you are trying to apply a much more direct, practical logic path to my desire for added metering capability at this time. There isn't one. I am not young enough to have a future academic path....my son is. I am not now engaged in career activity that requires any of the high quality meters that have been brought into the discussion nor the 87-v. However I obviously decided, really during the course of this discussion that a 4400a could do no more than provide some sort of backup capability to this particular pursuit and that it had to be replaced before I needed to really spend a nanosecond's thought about a DE-5000 vs an ESR. There are simply too many times when I and my son are going to reach for the multimeter in this project and in any future project like it to leave the 4400a in place. In fact I might need two mulitmeters in this league before I need to spend any time on a DE-5000 vs an ESR. I likely won't get two though and past the 87-v will likely get the DE-5000 for the educational opportunity it provides. But the truth of it is that whenever you engage in discussion of this type, it should sharpen your thinking and your decision making and this discussion has served that purpose for me and for that I thank those that engaged in it.But again, not because there is a direct, practical application here. IMHO, nobody that does not have the skill set, the tools and the replacement parts around should be thinking about pulling the back of a broken panel TV off to repair it. It makes no sense when viewed absolutely like that. For what it is worth I can desolder and solder at least to the level required here.....have the tools to do it....would like my son to be able to as well. Had I not wanted my son to be able to do likewise I again would not likely be doing this at all. I will be refreshing those skills before I actually attack the joints on the power supply board itself. In fact whenever I pull the soldering iron out the first thing I have to do just to feel comfortable is refresh my soldering skills. Do you think there is even a soldering iron in the typical household, even an active one? I don't think so.The replacement parts are not sitting in one of my drawers someplace but they are easy enough and cheap enough to come by and in any future project we engage in, the parts will have to be cheap and readily available as well.I am lucky or have been so far. My son is bright even smart, well adjusted, polite to his elders and respected by his peers. He thinks about his future. While he is not overly aggressive he stands his ground. I have about four, maybe five years left before I become not much more to him than the beloved elder, thought of in terms of sage advice and that is about it. Though he might love his dad, his dependence on me will be something he looks to be rid of......a hard reality for any parent. For this time, the most important aspect of these decisions about which meter and when to buy it is the one that serves the purpose of his continuing education and the value of the time we can spend together.The meters you offered are very fine choices and had I been making a decision based more in day to day practical constraints I very likely would have chosen one. All of them show up in the various meter shoot outs around the web. Clearly that alone speaks well for them.As to your direct question about what is too much money......there is no such thing in the discussion as I have framed it and I never once mentioned the varied costs involved outside of the relative cost of the DE5000 vs the blue ESR. But honestly, I never framed this discussion differently. Right from the very start I framed it in terms of the educational and unity of purpose opportunity it provided for me and my son and said part way through this discussion that I was choosing what I considered an "option 3" dealing with the multi-meter before choosing to do anything about a DE5000 or an ESR.

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 24, 2015, 08:24:00 pm
content: Sorry jnug, but I am just as lost as to what you want to do as before. If you want to buy a multimeter for your son that is capable for the future then any suggested by others in this thread will be useful to that end, except perhaps the UT61E. You long explanation did nothing to clear up what you are asking.QuoteSo just get a Fluke then. If you want him to learn to follow the pack, then just buy an 87V.QuoteWhat are you asking for then?QuoteWell if cost is not any consideration, get a Fluke 289, a Fluke 28IIEX, the DER DE 5000 plus all the options, the blue ESR, etc....Really, I want to help, but you make it impossible to answer anything.

author: DimitriP
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2015, 08:57:51 pm
content: Dads have a habit of sometimes over-scientificising even the simplest things.Show him the suspect caps.Replace all of them.Enjoy the TVGo out for ice-cream (that he will remember for a lot longer after the TV gets tossed )

author: crispy_tofu
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2015, 03:29:55 am
content: To OP: I also really don’t understand what you’re trying to say. Can you state your question clearly?Quote from: Lightages on October 24, 2015, 04:02:51 pmExactly. The Fluke 87V is slightly overkill for a beginner, but it’s ultimately to OP’s choice.Quote from: singapol on October 24, 2015, 03:30:55 amI don’t think Dave ever reviewed the UT61E, but it’s an alright choice for a beginner.Quote from: DimitriP on October 24, 2015, 08:57:51 pmI think the point here is for a learning experience.Quote from: jnug on October 24, 2015, 08:06:42 pmerhem

author: jnug
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: October 25, 2015, 04:15:55 am
content: Well lets see. Maybe an overview will help you folks out:Initially I asked if a DE5000 would make more sense than an ESR under the particular purchasing influences I mentioned in this instance and used the blue ESR as an option because it is pretty much a best in class ESR similar in its world to a DE5000 in its world.What I got back was from Shock who posted that I should "go with the DE5000. That my son will get more out of that educationally than he will out of the ESR. My congrats to Shock as he got it without any prompting of any sort. Shock just immediately understood where I was coming from. But it was just at that point that I decided that I had to change out the multimeter first....not because the Sperry was junk in my opinion but because it had no business inside the back panel of a flat panel TV. But it has a place in the world whether Maxlor thinks so or not. Lord only knows how many of them are kicking around out there just in the sorts of places I posted that you are likely to find them.I would not look at it twice right now even if i was looking for that class of multimeter but does that mean people that have one sitting in some drawer someplace should scurry around the house like some mouse on a treadmill feverishly trying to find it and toss it out so they can put a more current version in that same dusty spot in that same drawer? Should they be haunted by the notion that it might not do at least the limited tasks on the rare occasions it might be assigned one? I would say NO. If they have something like a 4400a doing as I suggest, I would just leave it there, use it if they have one of those tasks and if it fails, then replace it. Do you know how many people might not look at whatever multimeter they have around the house for periods as long as ten years or more? That is where most of the world is with regard to multimeters....not posting about them or reviewing them or giving a rats behind about them.The very first post you will find after Shock's post was my post back to Shock thanking him and telling him that I had decided to change out the multimeter first. This is before any comments from anybody other than Shock about the 4400a that I already had.Oddly enough as Maxlor was posting about the value of a good multimeter I was already looking to buy an 87-v. I doubt there are any serial numbers left out there with the rev 10 board and thus none for sale with the potential GSM problem. Though that is so easy to check it is just not funny and should not be an issue for anybody. Singapol then posted on top of Maxlor with his mulitmeter suggestions. I posted back thanking Singapol for his suggestions and that is when I continued on to say I was likely going to get an 87-v.It was just at that point that I guess Singapol decided he was just not satisfied with that and wanted to explore further why I would buy an 87-v instead of the meters he suggested. Well normally I would have just repeated my thanks for his suggestions and moved on. But I did not feel comfortable being part of a discussion that totally trashed something that whether current or not, whether in the same class of these other meters or not still has a place in this world. I think we tend to forget that by leaps and bounds, by orders of magnitude most people in this world are better served having a cheap little meter stuffed in some drawer somewhere that they might pull out on occasions as rare as the appearance of a blue moon..... not most electricians, not most technicians, not most students pursuing some sort of Computer Science academic path but most people in this world just need something that will work around the household in a pinch....END of STORY. They don't spend two nanoseconds looking at reviews for them or ever even thinking about a multimeter upgrade.... ANY MULTIMETER UPGRADE. That is why I described the 4400a as a "household meter" a term that maybe does not even actually exist within the meter industry. So I went on to explain what a 4400a represented to me...why I decided to replace it before moving on to replace anything else and further at least in part explained the relevant parts of my decision to pursue on 87-v.Now had I decided on anything from Fluke less than either an 87-v or maybe something from the 28 series that sits atop it or the other Fluke series above that, I think Singapol would have a point....that includes 115-117, 15b, 17b and anything for that matter in the 100 or the 10 series. But an 87-v when it was being actively reviewed regularly produced excellent results at least as good IMO and in most if not all cases better than the options that Singapol suggested There is a cost associated with buying a Fluke and that cost is between me and the source. It is nobodies business. Had I decided to buy a 116 even, I can see Singapol being mystified but incredulous no....sorry...he doesn't have the right to be incredulous about me choosing anything and being incredulous about me choosing an 87-v instead of the meters he suggested is frankly laughable. I never asked for multimeter suggestions anyway. The only queries I made here were DE5000 vs ESR and specifically the blue box ESR....Thats it! An 87-v is certainly not a nonsensical decision. I have not saddled my son or myself with a piece of junk.As for the meters Singapol suggested, they are fine meters for the money. But the only time you see them mentioned in the same breadth with an 87-v is if somebody complaining about either is asked if they were doing something really stupid like.....comparing them to an 87-v.What is my question. At this point my question is why is anybody asking me for a clarification of my question? The only question I posed here was about the choice of a DE5000 vs an ESR and most specifically the blue box ESR. Shock answered that question. Since then, I have not asked a single product related question of anybody. I have not once asked anybody for multimeter suggestions. I politely thanked Singapol for his proffered suggestions but that is what they were...proffered suggestions. Since then I have simply tried to define my position regarding the 4400a for the reasons I stated above and have tried to deal with Singapol's incredulous response apparently because he is somehow irritated by my 87-v choice.And if you are wondering....yes....now finally I am incredulous and have every right to be....are you happy now or are you still confused??

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 25, 2015, 04:18:25 am
content: Quote

author: DimitriP
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2015, 04:26:11 am
content: QuoteHoly bats batman.What wouldreallyhelp is making a point in 5 sentences or less.Less is more.

author: crispy_tofu
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2015, 04:30:48 am
content: To OP: Now it all makes senseQuote from: DimitriP on October 25, 2015, 04:26:11 amtl;dr the OP wasn't actually asking a question of multimeters, he was only talking about the ESR meter.

author: Seekonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2015, 07:52:45 am
content: I have a lot of really nice equipment I never turn on. It serves its purpose when I do turn it on. Nice equipment doesn't make anyone smarter. The suggestion of buying an ESR meter because video games are left on does make my eyes roll. The desire of so many for an ESR meter never ceases to amaze me. There isn't much that can't be fixed with just a free Harbor Freight DVM and some knowledge.

author: DimitriP
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2015, 08:58:29 pm
content: Quote from: crispy_tofu on October 25, 2015, 04:30:48 amPerhaps. If the thread title holds any truth, it doesn't matter what he buys or if he buys anything at all.And I'm not reading another diatribe on anything having to do with "best xxxx".

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2015, 09:40:17 pm
content: I'd be wary of letting my kids work on mains powered equipment without getting some hands on experience on battery / wall-wart powered equipment first.

author: Macbeth
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2015, 10:30:45 pm
content: Quote from: Seekonk on October 25, 2015, 07:52:45 amHmm... no... I got the impression OP knew that the caps are probably the culprits and could just take 'em out and replace, but wants to teach his kids about capacitors. In which case the LCR meter wins hands down, even if you have to discharge caps and maybe desolder and lift a leg to test them. An ESR meter alone that works in-circuit with a level of protection would be useful to a service engineer who is just spending all day fixing switch modes or whatever at lowest labour and parts cost. A DIY job would be best served just replacing all the CrapXcons with Panasonic/Nikchicon/Rubycon and not worry about which actual caps went bad. A learning/teaching exercise is best served with some theory and an LCR meter.So DER5000 it is.As for the DMM, I have to admit I spend far more time than I do with my more expensive handhelds than I should with my cute little £12 UT-136C ... Auto range, temperature, frequency and just the right size and ruggedness to toss anywhere on the bench....but I won't elaborate further because I don't need a wall of text