Handheld LCR meters: 100 kHz or lower? What other parameters to look out for? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: laseractive
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: January 23, 2017, 09:48:53 pm
content: Dear forum members,This is my very first post on the EEVBlog forumWhile searching for a handheld LCR meter, I find plenty of models to chose from and it is easy to get lost.Apparently there are 3 categories:1) The cheaper Chinese handheld models that only support up to 10 kHz measurement frequency2) The more expensive handheld models that can go up to 100 kHz and that usually have also more counts (better precision)3) The bench models that can go up to 5 MHz or even more (Very expensive and very likely well beyond my needs)I read somewhere that 100 kHz is important, since a lot of data sheets specify the ESR value or impedance value for capacitors at 100 kHz.It looks like this is some kind of industry standard test frequency for components.My main use of this LCR meter will be for component testing in the repair of consumer electronics.The meter should definitely have an ESR reading, since this is important for me in detecting defective caps.My questions now:1) Do I really need a test frequency up to 100 kHz? Or is a cheap ESR/LCR meter sufficient for my application needs.I like the MK-328. Cheap (25 EUR) and has ESR/LCR + lots of extras like transistor testing.However, I don't like the thin flimsy cables. There are no 4 wires for Kelvin measurements.https://www.aliexpress.com/item/MK-328-Transistor-Tester-Capacitor-ESR-Inductance-Resistor-Meter-LCR-NPN-PNP-MOS/32667084269.htmlAnother model that I like is the Sund LCR200E (100 USD). The form factor looks nice and it looks more sturdy with its 4 wire connection for Kelvin tweezers.However, I find it a bit expensive, given that it is in the same price range as the "DER EE DE-5000", but does not support 100 kHz.https://world.taobao.com/item/543315242657.htm2) Some LCR meters only support one fixed test frequency of 100 kHz. Is this a big shortcoming, or is it enough for my needs?Example: PEAK Atlas LCR and ESRhttp://www.peakelec.co.uk/acatalog/jz_esr60.html3) Besides test frequency and number of counts, are there other parameters to look out for when selecting a good handheld LCR meter?4) What is the primary use case of the more expensive bench LCR meters? Is this only for electronic companies that produce HF equipment?5) Importance of polarity when testing electrolytic capacitors.Do some LCR meters output a DC signal before they generate the AC test signal with a variable frequency?Should I worry about improper polarity when testing an electrolytic capacitor.6) Auto discharge functionality for capacitors in LCR meters.Some LCR meters support this, others don't. How does this work? Do all LCR meters discharge the capacitor inthe same way, or are there different methods (pros/cons)?7) Comparison of 100 kHz modelsI read a lot of positive feedback about the "DER EE DE-5000". (price ranges from 100 - 250 USD)https://world.taobao.com/item/17413927652.htmHowever, I find it a bit bulky, and people complain that the grip is not good in your hand.Are there other LCR meters with similar specs and pricing, that come in a smaller form factor?The Sanwa LCR700 seems a good candidate. Similar specs and price range.https://world.taobao.com/item/35388935297.htmWhere can I find a detailed comparison of 100 kHz handheld LCR meters? Either a document or a video.

author: Boson
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: January 24, 2017, 11:11:11 am
content: Have Agilent/Keysight U1733C 100Hz/120Hz/1kHz/10kHz/100kHz. 100kHz important to have! Very pleased, better usability vs Agilent multimeters. No 4-wire but on-the-fly calibration compensate. Suggest compare U1733C spec to some other & decide. Also have some PeakTech multimeter products. All high quality and very reliable. Much cheaper vs Aglient.Maybe this is good, has 4-wire!PeakTech 2170100/120 Hz; 1/10/100 kHzhttp://www.peaktech.de/productdetail/kategorie/lcr-esr-messer/produkt/peaktech-2170.htmlOverall suggest not buy "noname" with unnown Quality Assurance. LCR precise business cannot have toy.

author: mcinque
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 24, 2017, 11:14:29 am
content: I owned a Peak Atlas LCR. Nice pricing, but I can NOT suggest it:- you can't select L, C or R (autodetect only) and because of this, with really small values it won't distinguish from L, C or R (a small R can be seen as a L on a first reading and a R on a second, randomly - maybe my firmware version was buggy but to update i have to ship it in UK!)- you have to MANUALLY PUSH THE BUTTONevery timeyou want to measure a new component (terrible!)

author: rf-loop
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 24, 2017, 01:36:37 pm
content: Good and cheap. Mostly not in same package.http://www.ebay.com/itm/TH2822C-PORTABLE-handheld-Pro-LCR-0-3-up-to-100Khz-ESR-METER-TESTER-5-terminal-/322253317433?hash=item4b07cb6539:g:leEAAOSwMgdXzmlLTonghui have long experience about LCR meters. (in China it is not "consumer" class manufacturer, they do mostly things for domestic professional markets. nearly as "China Keysight")

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 24, 2017, 01:43:17 pm
content: I have no personal experience with it but I have done quite a bit of searching into getting a good LCR meter and my choice would be the DER EE DE-5000 due to range.

author: PedroDaGr8
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 24, 2017, 01:58:34 pm
content: For frequencies, the two most essential frequencies are 120Hz and 100kHz, most capacitors have their capacitance range spec'd at 120Hz and their ESR or their dissipation factor spec'd at 100kHz.I have the Der EE DE-5000 and have been utterly happy with it. If you need that level of precision and performance than it is by far the best value on the market. It goes blow for blow with the Agilent U1733C but at about 1/3 the price. As for using it in your hand, it isn't a multimeter. In general, you want an LCR as stable as possible when taking measurements because the leads moving will change their L/C properties. So holding it in your hand is typically not the best option. That Sanwa likely uses the same ICs that the DE-5000 uses, interestingly it is the only one besides the DE-5000 that breaks out all of the Kelvin connections, making them externally accesible. One nice thing about the DE-5000 is the available accessories (alligator and tweezers) really expand the functionality well.As for the cheap Chinese ones, most of those are based off of the open-source work from Markus Frejek and Karl-Heinz Kübbeler. Madires (who I think might or might not be one of those two gentlemen) is a user on here and is actively involved with dramatically expanding the capabilities and performance. If you are a hobbyist, honestly it is useful to have one of these around just for all of the other features that it brings to the table (ignoring the LCR function). The english language facing thread for development is actually located here:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/$20-lcr-esr-transistor-checker-project/

author: pascal_sweden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 24, 2017, 02:29:49 pm
content: What is the purpose of an LCR Comparator?http://hl2kvx.tistory.com/4724

author: Shock
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 24, 2017, 02:57:57 pm
content: Quote from: pascal_sweden on January 24, 2017, 02:29:49 pmComponent sort testing, pass/fail, matching etc.

author: Boson
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: January 24, 2017, 03:13:24 pm
content: Just little info and max +error example for 0.1ohmAgilent U1733CZ at 100KHz, ...2ohm, resolution 0.0001ohm: accuracy 1.0%+50http://www.sophphx.caltech.edu/Lab_Equipment/Agilent_U1731C_LCR_Meter.pdf0.1ohm: 0.106ohmTH2822CZ at 100KHz, 0.4000-3.9999ohm, resolution 0.0001ohm: accuracy 2.5%+10 digitsZ at 100KHz, 0.0000-0.3999ohm, resolution 0.0001ohm: accuracy 6%+20 digitshttps://www.globalmediapro.com/att/a/2/j/p/a2jp73/th2822-series-spec.pdf0.1ohm: 0.108ohmPeakTech 2170Z at 100kHz, 0.1-1ohm, resolution 0.001ohm(?): accuracy 2.0% o.r. + 5 dgt.http://www.peaktech.de/productdetail/kategorie/lcr-esr-messer/produkt/peaktech-2170.html?file=tl_files/downloads/2001%20-%203000/PeakTech_2170_02_2016.pdf0.1ohm: 0.107ohmDer EE DE-5000 LCR MeterZ at 100kHz, 0.1-1ohm, resolution 0.001ohm(?): accuracy 2.5%+5https://www.deree.com.tw/de-5000.html0.1ohm: 0.1075ohmIf I calculate error correct all pretty similar. Interesting why need 4-wire if Agilent still best with 2-wire. Look some 4-wire 6.5digit multimeter spec and again not better than Agilent (about 0.106 for 0.1ohm). What miracle device need if want measure much better than this? What is cheapest?

author: djnz
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 24, 2017, 03:39:24 pm
content: I've some experience with a BK Precision 880 (which is a rebadged Tonghui TH2822E). Gave pretty good readings. Comes standard with 4-wire kelvin and 4-wire tweezers which is nice. Comes with 3 year warranty.However it is a little pricey - US$300 ish after discounts.BK880 is pretty good, but I think the best value for money is the DER EE 5000 which has worse specs, but is significantly cheaper.

author: ocw
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 24, 2017, 03:42:33 pm
content: I use an Extech LCR200 for capacitance and ESR measurement at 100/120/1k/10k/100k Hz, plus an Array Solutions AIM4170C for similar measurements at 1/10/100 MHz. Special test adapters/cables were made for high frequency measurement via the AIM4170C. Measurement using both meters at 100 kHz produces similar results. The LCR200 is more convenient for use at 100 kHz.The ESR at high frequencies can be important during capacitor replacement. An example of this is DC blocking capacitors in VHF, UHF and microwave power amplifiers. Due to the high RF current there, capacitors with a higher ESR at its operating frequency can result in excessive heat dissipation in the capacitors prompting early failure. For amplifiers up to at least 1,000 MHz a 100 MHz test frequency has been a good compromise between high enough to provide a similar ESR to that at a higher frequency and not too high to have excessive stray capacitance problems. I've found that a capacitor's ESR at 100 kHz can be irrelevant to that at 100 MHz.

author: Fgrir
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 24, 2017, 05:07:17 pm
content: I have a DE-5000 and am pretty happy with it especially for the price. However I find the 100KHz mode for all these handheld meters is really not very useful for the things I would want to measure - it is really only good for small valued capacitors. For the DE-5000 and BK880 for example 100KHz is only usable up to 10uF, for the U1733C it only works to 20uF, and in all three cases the accuracy is terrible in that region. I am rarely interested in the 100KHz ESR of a 1uF cap, I usually want to know it for a 150uF polymer with 9mOhm expected ESR and one of these meters is not going to show me anything about that cap at 100KHz.

author: ocw
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 24, 2017, 07:05:26 pm
content: For power supply filtering and DC blocking capacitors for audio and low current RF, 100 kHz ESR testing is adequate to higher than needed. However, when a DC blocking capacitor passes over an amp of RF current at VHF and above frequencies ESR testing at 100 kHz can be inadequately low.

author: kripton2035
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 24, 2017, 07:37:33 pm
content: I also have a deree de5000 and I'm very happy with it. nothing can beat the price/performance at $100.I think that to have a really better instrument, you have to pay $1000 or more.

author: ocw
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 24, 2017, 09:06:37 pm
content: I thought that I would provide some examples of the bad capacitors that I deal with. These are DC blocking ceramic capacitors which pass RF.The PA1-3 picture shows three burnt up capacitors just above the coax balun. You can see what's left of a capacitor on the amplifier boards on either side of the center board. That center one clearly points to lightning as being the cause of that damage.While the first picture is better eye candy, the second one is more appropriate. It didn't focus on the best portion of the picture, but the basics can be seen. The power from two identical amplifiers is being combined. The damaged area is highlighted. Note the similar area on the left. The small center capacitor is the blocking capacitor which is generally the first damaged part. It has occurred frequently on different boards. While the damage is sometimes caused by lightning, I'm convinced that the damage sometimes starts due to it overheating.Besides replace capacitor temperature and voltage specifications, I've had to try and deal with inadequate RF current and ESR data.

author: Deckert
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2017, 11:35:49 pm
content: Quote from: Fgrir on January 24, 2017, 05:07:17 pmI have the ISO-Tech 1701 LCR meter, which is basically the same as the DE-5000 and it can measure ESR of the large value capacitors without issue. Perhaps you're trying to use the capacitance mode and relying on the dual-display for the ESR? Switch to dedicated ESR (resistance measurement) scale and measure just the ESR. You'll find that you can do that at all frequencies, even for caps >4000uF.I made a video of the ISO-Tech (see below), but the DE-5000 is probably a better buy for the same (or better) feature set. I only got the ISO-Tech from RS components, because shipping the DE-5000 to South Africa worked out more expensive.--deckert

author: Fgrir
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2017, 06:05:02 pm
content: Quote from: Deckert on January 28, 2017, 11:35:49 pmYou are right, that works for the DE-5000 also. Thanks for the tip, I never knew it could measure ESR on it's own.

author: pascal_sweden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2017, 12:33:49 am
content: Any feedback about the auto discharge functionality and the mechanism behind it?

author: laseractive
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: April 03, 2017, 09:03:25 pm
content: Dear forum,I have found another LCR meter that sort of fascinates me: the CEM DT-9935The design is quite attractive, much smarter than the DER EE DE-5000 and it is based on the same chipset.http://www.cem-instruments.com/en/Product/detail/id/686/pid/770/pids/1147What is confusing however: does it support 4-wire Kelvin measurements?Some people claim YES, others claim NO.The German website ELV for hobby electronics claims: 4 wire measurements:https://www.elv.de/cem-lcr-messgeraet-dt-9935.htmlThe CEM website claims: 4 or 5 wire Kelvin measurements:What is a 5 wire Kelvin measurement. I was only aware of 4 wire Kelvin plugs :-) ?Now, I read somewhere else that it could be supported, but you would have to build your own connections.Quite similar as what you need to do for a DER EE LCR meter... Build your own 4-wire tweezers or Kelvin plugs...So how is the story for the CEM meter?On a final note: are there users out here that have experience with the CEM brand? They usedto have quality control issues years ago. I would assume that this has all been solved by now.Can you please comment on this. Any quality issues on recent models?Regards,Laseractive

author: Neo2199
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: April 03, 2017, 09:56:06 pm
content: Here is another happy owner of DER EE DE-5000. I think it is a really good deal. Here is Dave's video about it, actually this is the first Dave's video I saw

author: laseractive
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: April 10, 2017, 06:46:02 pm
content: I understand your appreciation for the DER EE.However, I was hoping to get some more feedback on the CEM meter.Anyone?

author: PA4TIM
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 10, 2017, 07:16:02 pm
content: DE-5000 (IET version) here in daily use since 2013 (repairing test and calibration gear) Does all I need. (but I have many bridges and other meters)By the way, the standard ESR frequency is not 100 kHz. I only have seen it at 100 kHz for smd polymer caps. For the rest it is capacitance at 100/120 Hz, ESR in the form of Dissipation factor (D) at the same frequency and impedance at 100 kHz. Most cheap ESR meters that measure at 100 kHz do not measure ESR but impedance, so by accident they measure the right parameter.(The ESR tables that live in the catacombes of the internet and declared holy by consumer stuff repairman are bullshit and pseudo science )The best way: measure the voltage ripple on the power rails with a scope and check of it is within specs. An other way, look up the datasheet of the cap, measure at the given frequency and check of the cap is within specs.For replacement, look not only for D, ESR or Z but also look at the max allowed ripple current at the frequency of use.

author: laseractive
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: April 10, 2017, 09:36:14 pm
content: And what is your opinion about the CEM?You seem to have a lot of experience with repairing electronics.What is your opinion on the Octopus Component Testers?

author: Shock
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2017, 06:25:52 am
content: QuoteDreams are free. There was a discussion a few years ago about some poor implementations of the 4 wire system on some of these handhelds. The obvious visual thing is the CEM DT-9935 has no guard connection (the 5th wire) and the DER EE DE-5000 does, I've seen this on other models as well. With the DE-5000 you can wire up something better or buy and customize additional test adapters to suit your needs.An octopus adapter is essentially a graphical representation of how a component responds in circuit to your octopus tester and then displayed on your oscilloscope. It's better than not knowing anything at all or for comparison testing but it won't tell you the capacitor is out of spec on capacitance, ESR, leakage etc (at least not easily).For repair a multimeter and a cheap Chinese transistor/esr tester will get you by in most situations. If you want more accuracy or better specs and frequency support a handheld LCR meter like the DE-5000 is the affordable option before a decent bench LCR meter.

author: PA4TIM
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2017, 07:35:19 am
content: I use a homemade octopus (use a FG as input so I can vary frequency and that is the strong point of the over-expensive Huntrons trackers ), I have a Huntron clone from VU-data (but I lust for a Huntron), one inside a Hameg 1004 (together with a Hameg 350 MHz DSO my daily use scopes) My "king optopus" is a Tek 567 curve tracer.I do often have repairs to thing that you cannot power up and IV analyse can be a useful tool in those cases. Be careful with the amplitude and current when you use it in situ. I use the Tek curve tracer all kind of things. They are very versatile.I have many component testers, commercial and DIY. I can test almost every component. I have build an IC tester and besides the normal use, I use it together with the CT for "signature" analyse of IC's.But be careful, besides not killing components with an octopus or CT you need to know what the display shows you. Especial if you use it in situ. Then you see a combination of things. There is not much literature about advanced IV measurements.Testgear is only as useful as the knowledge of the user. Know how to measure and analyse the data. Otherwise it is a waist of money and time. For IV testing, practice on good and bad components and combinations and for most try to understand/analyse what you see.I do not know that (CEM) meter, are you serious, you only want it for the looks ?If so forget my answers and buy a hello kitty LCR meter in a nice giftbox.

author: cheeseit
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2017, 08:55:54 am
content: Quote from: mcinque on January 24, 2017, 11:14:29 amThat was the LCR40. I have the much more capableLCR45and it does have both manual and auto mode for L, C and R, and for frequency. No manual button push for measuring another component either. However, it does not have 100kHz mode, only DC, 1kHz, 15kHz and 200kHz. Fine instrument but chews through batteries quite fast.Recently bought a DE-5000 that I like a lot.

author: fishandchips
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2017, 01:14:16 pm
content: Quote from: PA4TIM on April 10, 2017, 07:16:02 pmExcuse me. Could you please clarify what IET version is? From Amazon, the product is made from "IET Labs". Do you mean there are different manufacturers for this product?In Amazon, the one by DER EE Electrical Instrument costs $131 while that by IET Labs cost $105. What are the differences?It also seems that some units come with all the probes, some units with 1-2 probes or none.Which version do you recommend to measure the inductance of DC motor? Which probe(s) do you recommend?

author: Shock
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2017, 06:21:17 pm
content: Something I'll add to what I said previously, the DE 5000 4 wire test cables and tweezers are primitive compared to a properly made set of kelvin cables or the decent ones that come with the lab grade bench LCR meters. This is why buying a TL21 to go with the DE 5000 is a good idea, if you need greater accuracy, a decent sized test cable or plan on making fancy test fittings etc, then you can modify it.

author: kripton2035
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 11, 2017, 07:14:24 pm
content: Quote from: fishandchips onTodayat 15:14:16the original one is from IET labs but costs more around $350. the one you saw is either a copy or a used one.it has been replaced by the de6000.original iet de5000 :http://kripton2035.free.fr/LCR%20meters/lcr-de5000.htmllater after IET made his meter, a japan copy appeared that is around $100 shipped from japan.you can get them on ebay mostly.there is a search link on my deree 5000 page here :http://kripton2035.free.fr/LCR%20meters/lcr-deree5000-cl.htmlEDIT: the IET DE5000 and 6000 seems not available anymore on their website.

author: Shock
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 12, 2017, 12:46:10 am
content: Isn't DER EE the original Taiwanese manufacturer of the DE 5000 and IET the rebranded product?The IET DE 6000 according to this post the same meter as the DE 5000 but with a small firmware mod and USB driver.https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/de-5000-vs-de-6000-lcr-showdown/msg545416/#msg545416Looks like both products are discontinued from IET but DER EE has them still up.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 12, 2017, 02:45:14 am
content: Quote from: laseractive on April 10, 2017, 06:46:02 pmlaseractive, myself and a few others have this meter and a few clones: REED 5001 (I have this) and Aktakom AMM-3035. I use mine much more than I thought I would - it is absolutely critical for the repairs I usually do.In my opinion this is an excellent meter and very easy to use - the organization of buttons and the large screen are also a plus. The only major drawback for me is the lack of 4 wire measurements (great to measure very low resistances, including ESR). Another minor nuisances were the accessories supplied: they tend to have too much intrinsic capacitance and inductance. To help with this, I fabricated very short leads with alligator clips and bought separately SMD tweezers (Agilent U1782B) to use with SMD parts.I had the opportunity to verify its accuracy against other meters and found out it is quite reasonable.Two threads discuss this meter and its clones:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/reed-r5001-lcr-meter/https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/cheap-lcr-meter-cem-dt-9935/

author: fishandchips
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 12, 2017, 02:51:13 am
content: Quote from: kripton2035 on April 11, 2017, 07:14:24 pmI recall that according to some comments from Amazon, the DE6000 replaced by the DE5000.On Canadian Amazon site, they only sell the ones from DER EE but shipped from Japan.

author: kripton2035
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 12, 2017, 05:55:49 am
content: on the IET web site, there is no more handheld lcr meter.http://www.ietlabs.com/lcr-meter.html

author: laseractive
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: May 03, 2017, 11:41:42 am
content: About the CEM DT-9935:Most people on this forum claim that the CEM does NOT support 4- or 5-wire Kelvin measurements.However, when I read the technical product sheet, it supposedly DOES support this kind of measurements:It is actually mentionned as a feature:https://files.elv.com/Assets/Produkte/12/1266/126632/Downloads/LCR%20Tester%20DT-9935%20Eng.pdfThis is all very confusing to me. Who is telling the truth here?Regards,laseractive

author: Shock
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 03, 2017, 01:48:02 pm
content: Quote from: laseractive on May 03, 2017, 11:41:42 amYou were the one who posted the original photo without the inbuilt "test slots" and guard connection. The "test sockets" it showed in that photo look setup for a 4 wire measurement.But then looking at other photos on the web the bottom two sockets are labelled guards which indicates not a 4 wire measurement. So if it was 4 wire one would assume it's from the test slots. Then you see people using the guard connections like a 4 wire measurement. Then other confusing photos like this 3 wire measurement?http://www.ruby-electronics.com/images/DT-9935-i.jpgSo what is it? I think you will have to go buy one.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 04, 2017, 03:15:14 am
content: Quote from: Shock on May 03, 2017, 01:48:02 pmThe pictures on the CEM website (linked earlier) show the same as my meter: two guard terminals - they are shorted from inside the meter as well.Also, the blade terminals on mine are not four/five wires: the upper and lower blades are shorted inside the meter as well.At any rate, this does not bother me terribly much as I just remembered the test lead resistance/capacitance/inductance can be nulled by running a "calibrate" routine on the meter.