Annoying Energizer marketing scam - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2016, 03:00:28 am
content: I wanted some Energizer lithium batteries and I picked up the package below without looking too closely at it. The package was blue, it had "advanced" written on it, and the batteries were silver. Only later did I look more closely and realize that these were alkaline batteries.In contrast, this is what actual lithium batteries look like. Unless you put them side by side, they seem rather similar. Furthermore, the price is not much different. I somehow feel the resemblance of the packaging is not an accident. How to trick people into paying a lot of money for alkaline batteries, perhaps?

author: Delta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2016, 03:02:23 am
content: Nah, sorry mate, I think you should've gone the Specsavers"!

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2016, 03:04:53 am
content: Well it's easy when the packaging is blown up to such a large size like that

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2016, 03:11:02 am
content: Quote from: Delta on September 21, 2016, 03:02:23 amThey've been advertising these "green" BS products here for a while now.Who on earth wants a battery made partially from recycled OLD depleted batteries.AND wants you to pay more for the privilege of using them.Even more reason to boycott Energizer along with Duracell.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 21, 2016, 03:19:31 am
content: 3.8% recycled batteries? That isn't much.What did they recycle ... the casing?

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2016, 03:22:20 am
content: I turn and run for the door as fast as I can when I see "Eco", "Green" and "Energy efficient" products.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2016, 03:29:48 am
content: However, I suspect the marketing people know what they are doing:https://youtu.be/8AGSMJojAM4

author: Cyberdragon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2016, 03:31:19 am
content: Quote from: Brumby on September 21, 2016, 03:19:31 amCrap...you beat me to what I was going to say!

author: System Error Message
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2016, 03:37:48 am
content: car batteries are recycled even more than alkaline. Theres a whole documentary on it, essentially they are crushed, melted down and made into new batteries. If you want to go green, buy lead acid (sounds very contradictory).There was a test done by some random guy who made a battery tester using arduino. He tested many alkaline battery brands and found the extra cost you pay for energizer and duracel are pointless compared to generic brand. As long as they arent chinese (even for lithium this is serious) than its fine. With some batteries like lithium or deep cycle lead acid going with a brand like energizer does give the benefit you pay for and probably less chance of blowing up.There are however fakes that are packaged as the real thing so thats a big issue. Usually their packaging is inconsistent as the law requires the packaging to be clear.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2016, 03:38:26 am
content: But, you see, they have magic rings inside them!

author: Cyberdragon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2016, 03:49:01 am
content: http://www.energizer.com/ecoadvancedIt seems they are actually recyling the chemicals. They must be either extracting unspent chemicals or reversing the reaction somehow, both of which would take lots of energy.

author: Delta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2016, 06:13:30 am
content: Quote from: IanB on September 21, 2016, 03:04:53 amThe packaging is a completely different colour, with completely different text, and one says "lithium", the other doesn't.On this shitty 7" tablet, the pictures are smaller than actual size!Nope, you're not blaming this one on the marketeers!

author: setq
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2016, 06:55:00 am
content: Quote from: Brumby on September 21, 2016, 03:19:31 amThe electrons.

author: timb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2016, 12:15:37 pm
content: Quote from: Delta on September 21, 2016, 06:13:30 amIn fairness to the OP, the "Ultimate Lithium" batteries *used to* be called "Energizer Advanced Lithium" and were in fact heavily marketed as such for many years. Only when these Eco batteries came out did they suddenly change Advanced to Ultimate.I can see how he would make a mistake at a glance. Like him I suspect that's the point.

author: strangersound
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2016, 10:19:01 pm
content: Quote from: timb on September 21, 2016, 12:15:37 pmPlus, the only place on either package that the battery type is noted is in the bottom left corner, in conveniently small and light print, especially considering every other thing on the package is in bold, eye catching type. Yeah, it's the OP's fault for not looking close enough, but the packaging thing does seem a bit shady and designed to confuse. The marketeers are scum, so I wouldn't put it past them. And packaging departments are like web designers, they spend all their time changing things just to justify their existence. And they usually break what already worked just fine. It never ceases to amaze me how many modern packaging schemes are completely useless. Like these food products that keep doing new and improved types of zip-locking. The original type worked just fine, but they never just leave things be and now I see all these packaging schemes for food these days that totally don't work...which I'm sure is desirable on the producers part since it increases the chances of food not lasting as long. I use more ziplock bags than I ever did to put all these products in that have "resealable" packaging that doesn't f***ing work!

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2016, 11:07:29 pm
content: Sure makes a lot of sense to confuse customers and get them to buy the cheaper product.If a 4-pack of alkalines cost you almost as much as a 4-pack of lithiums, you got ripped off buying those alkalines.Cheap dollar-store alkaline batteries are virtually identical to premium alkaline batteries, and the only advantage lithium really offers is better performance in high-drain applications. The higher capacity in low drain applications is not worth the additional expense. Seehttp://www.batteryshowdown.com/(**disclaimer: I used to work for the company that put this together and I designed and ran most of the tests, it's fully impartial and we don't sell batteries)

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2016, 11:44:17 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on September 21, 2016, 11:07:29 pmThere are three other more important advantages: they don't leak, they have a very long shelf life, and they don't leak.You can put lithium batteries in a product, come back many years later, the product will still work, and the batteries won't have leaked. That is the reason I tend to buy and use lithium batteries. It is also the reason I was disappointed they didn't work in the BM235 multimeter. Alkaline batteries leak, ergo I don't use alkaline batteries in anything valuable.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 22, 2016, 01:25:25 am
content: Quote from: tom66 on September 21, 2016, 11:07:29 pmOr buy the OEM version of the brand name cells for a fraction of their retail price, despite being the same product with a different market/branding/packaginghttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Price_discriminationQuote from: IanB on September 21, 2016, 11:44:17 pmAlso some corner case requirements for low temperature environments where lithiums are unbeatable value.

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 22, 2016, 01:47:56 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on September 21, 2016, 04:21:05 amWhich brings up an interesting question: wonder how many Watt-Hour energy go into creating that 2000mAH battery. I bet when you include packaging, transportation,... Probably way over 1000:1.That fat guy at the check out scanner probably used more than 2000mAH worth of energy just lifting his oversized arm, passed the product over the scanner, and then put it into the plastic bag.

author: rrinker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 22, 2016, 01:12:10 pm
content: Magic rings, eh? No wonder they wanted to stop Batteroo. They're already using magic in their batteries and don't dare allow it to be added to any competitor's batteries.

author: Cyberdragon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 22, 2016, 05:38:14 pm
content: I think they are for increasing the active suface area or something.

author: djQUAN
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 22, 2016, 05:51:33 pm
content: Quote from: System Error Message on September 21, 2016, 03:37:48 amthis the guy?

author: strangersound
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 22, 2016, 06:20:12 pm
content: Ave. Funny guy.I started using generics quite some time ago. Eric Johnson (guitarist) started this thing back in the day, because he claimed he could hear the difference between Alkalines and Carbon Zinc batteries in his distortion pedals. Well, when you're a tone junkie, you can't let this slide and you have to try it for yourself. Well, I'm one of the people that felt that there was a difference. There has been endless discussion about it in guitar circles, but the primary idea is that the carbon zinc batteries have a voltage sag which affects the circuit. It's subtle, but there is a difference. It's supposed to be much more pronounced in germanium based pedals than it is later transistor distortions and compressors. It's even given enough merit that boutique pedal makers actually recommend carbon zinc batteries over alkaline.Short story long, after dicking around with this battery debate, I found that pretty much any battery was lasting as long as any other, so I stopped buying Duracells and Energizers and just went with the cheaper stuff. And in my regular alkaline use, I've found that Ray-O-Vac alkalines last just as long as Duracells and Energizers and are pretty much half the price.

author: rdl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 22, 2016, 06:26:25 pm
content: Quote from: strangersound on September 22, 2016, 06:20:12 pmSame here. They're probably cheaper because they don't waste money on marketing bullshit and nonsense advertising like commercials with pink bunnies and copper tops.

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 22, 2016, 06:34:31 pm
content: Quote from: timb on September 21, 2016, 12:15:37 pmThe standard used in English courts to decide if packaging is similar enough to be accused of "passing off" is that of the judgement of a "moron in a hurry". That is, if it could fool a "moron in a hurry" it would be treated as infringing.

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 22, 2016, 06:48:49 pm
content: Quote from: rdl on September 22, 2016, 06:26:25 pmWe had the same Ray-O-Vac 6V zinc carbon battery pack powering the front door bell in my parent's house from before I was born until my Mother sold the house 47 years later.

author: strangersound
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 22, 2016, 07:00:41 pm
content: Quote from: rdl on September 22, 2016, 06:26:25 pmI used to be snobbish towards generic brand things, but it's really worth a person's time to try generic alternatives. Malt-O-Meal (bag) cereals being a primary example. It's actually better cereal than the name brands, and costs a lot less due to eliminating excess packaging and like you said, a bunch of b.s. marketing. Not all things are equal and some name brand stuff is better, but it's worth doing the comparison.And I've noticed a lot of generic products seem to use older style packaging, so I think this is playing a strong role in price, along with the lack of marketing. It makes me wonder if while big brands are continually updating and changing their packaging, these smaller/generic brands are buying the phased out packaging equipment for pennies on the dollar. Just a theory, though...

author: John Coloccia
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 22, 2016, 08:41:14 pm
content: Quote from: strangersound on September 22, 2016, 06:20:12 pmThere's definitely something to it. A lot of pedals won't care until things start clipping that shouldn't, but the old fuzz pedals can really be quite sensitive to operating voltage. I should say that part of my business is actually building pedals.Anyhow, I include Duracell ProCell 9Vs in my product for a number of reasons:1) they're much smaller than cheap, crappy batteries. They fit better in smaller enclosures.2) The intercell connections are spot welded AAAA batteries. Crappy batteries either have pile construction, which is really piss poor all around, or connections that are mechanically held together. I think Energizers are just held together by the outer shell...take it apart, and the whole things falls apart if I remember correctly. It's been a while. Take a crappy, pile style battery and squeeze it. The voltage will change. I think Dave may have even shown that in a video. I've taken apart a lot of batteries when I was selecting one, and there are huge differences in manufacturing quality and design.3) Can't remember ever having one leak. This one's a biggy. All batteries are definitely NOT made alike in this regard4) the ProCell version is the same as their regular batteries, but they're available in bulk with individual terminal caps. Makes shipping them in the unit very easy, and if someone doesn't want to use a battery they can take the cap off the cell and put it on the snap terminal to keep that from shorting out. They don't cost much in bulk. I pay just over $1 each in cases of 216.Lots of advantages to the Duracells that don't really have anything to do with voltage or capacity.

author: John Coloccia
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 22, 2016, 08:42:15 pm
content: Shoot, I almost forgot. WTF is an energy ring??

author: System Error Message
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 22, 2016, 08:48:45 pm
content: When it comes to alkaline, they're all made at the same factories. A few factories supply all the alkalines. However the best alkalines are made in japan so thats what you should look out for (brand doesnt matter).For lithiums and other batteries, there are way more producers so the brand starts to matter.decades ago getting duracell or energizer made a huge difference compared to generic or other brands but technology is old now and there are other types of batteries so it becomes one of those things you can produce easily yourself.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 22, 2016, 11:51:29 pm
content: Quote from: IanB on September 21, 2016, 11:44:17 pmAlkaline cells rarely leak. I only saw Duracells and the zinc cells leak on our 50+ battery sample, after years sitting discharged in a box.The high shelf life is an additional bonus but even alkaline cells usually have a minimum 5 year shelf life retaining at least 70% of capacity. Lithium may be better in this regard, but I can't see any huge advantages for the additional price.

author: Macbeth
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 23, 2016, 12:19:57 am
content: My batteries are all labelled SUPER HEAVY DUTY and I get stacks of them in the 99p shop. I think I am winning. I will be applying for a job with Batteroo soon...ETA: I think I should add that these SUPER HEAVY DUTY batteries have got lighter and lighter over the years, so much they almost float away. I think this is an example of amazing technological progress, but Batteroo can even squeeze another 800% out of these amazing cells

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 23, 2016, 10:11:50 pm
content: Quote from: Cerebus on September 22, 2016, 06:34:31 pmPassing off is used to protect one companies brand from another imitating it, I'm not sure energizer would be so keen on pursuing a passing off case against its self.

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 23, 2016, 10:31:31 pm
content: Quote from: Someone on September 23, 2016, 10:11:50 pmThe point was about "making a mistake in a hurry". Context is everything. Passing off is about fooling consumers, the original discussion here is about fooling consumers but in a different way.

author: RGB255_0_0
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 23, 2016, 11:14:34 pm
content: Quote from: Cerebus on September 23, 2016, 10:31:31 pmBut with that argument it's like going into Tesco and buying Tesco Value washing power when you wanted a quiche because you didn't read the packet but the packages look the same at a glance.Just don't fall for it again: fool me one...