What to buy - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: Peter1964
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 11, 2014, 04:40:33 pm
content: Hello EEVblogger'sI am in the market for an oscilloscope, function generator and maybe a bench multimeter (I do have a Brymen BM-869 handheld).I have used a lot of time locking around inhere to get a grip of different manufactures and models of equipment.It seems one can find good and bad for almost everything - I guess is also will depend of what ones needs are.To get en overview I made a spreadsheet with different models and the one I for now likes has a "big fat" price format.I am sure something like this can create a lot of opinionsI am not a professional. It is only for hobby projects and repair of different "things".My project for a bit of time will be to restore an old Hammond H100 organ - so I do not need high frequencies equipment.I hate really bad quality so I don't one something that break within three year.Hope somebody will share their thought of my list.Regards Peter

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 11, 2014, 09:02:25 pm
content: Hi Peter.Where are you located?I ask, as you can set your country in your user profile. Once done, that will display your nation's flag with your username on each post, which makes it a LOT easier for members to help. Particularly with pricing/places to get things, as what might be a great deal in one place, may not somewhere else (not available in all markets or too expensive for example).Other useful tidbits, would be budget, any other equipment you might have (i.e. do you have a PSU, soldering station, hand tools, ...), and whether or not used is something you're willing to consider.

author: Peter1964
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 11, 2014, 09:43:08 pm
content: @nanofrogThanks for the advice - this is done now.As you can see on my list I am not after very expensive gear - I am just playing around with electronics for fun - done this in many years.My PSU are home built and still going strong - I can post a picture if anyone would like. It is very beautiful if you ask meIt is 0-30 V DC / 3 A both can be set. It also have max Voltage limit so one don't turn the knob and destroy something.It can be shorted and after a while it will be so hot that it turns off for cooling. Meters are analog with light - well it is 30 years old by now.Output transistor are 2N3055 - good stuff last foreverAbout location. As everybody can see now I am in Denmark. For us here in the EU we can buy in all EU countries with no additional tax just have to pay for the postman - usually cheap.I have family in California and they are coming here in about a month so they can also bring stuff to me.Regards Peter

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 12, 2014, 07:15:19 am
content: Quote from: Peter1964 on May 11, 2014, 09:43:08 pmAre you willing to look at used?Might find some better gear/bargains if you are, and can be patient. Given your interest in audio, a used analog scope would be an alternative worth looking at (can be had for a lot less than a suitable DSO). Also good way to get 4 channels on the cheap. Take audio out of the equation, and there's some Asian DSO's that would be worth a look (or both, and still for a lot less money than a single DSO that could truly handle both). Rigol's 1102 for example. Some newer models from Instek have become popular as well IIRC.I'd look for a used function gen. and bench multimeter should you get one (bench DMM isn't critical).Quote from: Peter1964 on May 11, 2014, 09:43:08 pmCertainly. Pics are always welcome here.Quote from: Peter1964 on May 11, 2014, 09:43:08 pmKeep an eye on eBay in whatever EU country you wish, as that may end up being your best bet on used gear (shipping).Having family in the US is nice, but the shipping could still be ugly, especially if they're bringing it with them. Probably best to limit it to light stuff, such as DMM's, hand tools, ... that easily fits into luggage.

author: Peter1964
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 12, 2014, 11:48:44 am
content: I could see if some used scope appears.I would rather buy a new one. Looked at Rigol DS1074Z(-S) or the DS2072A(-S).As far as I can see the function generators on those scopes can't do a sweep - this is something I needs to be able to look at filters and cut-off.It looks like the 2000 has an inch bigger screen and is faster - but this should not be a problem as long we are talking audio.I do like the four channels - so maybe a 1074 would be a great choice for me.The FG just needs a sweep function the Rigol 1022 will be OK, but of course the 1032Z looks better....

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 12, 2014, 12:20:18 pm
content: Did you miss the Siglent SDG800 series AWG ?Lower priced single channel version of the 2 Ch 1000 series.A signal captured on a Siglent DSO can be replicated on their AWG's with a memory stick.

author: Peter1964
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 12, 2014, 02:29:31 pm
content: @tautechThis is why it is very hard to find out what to buy.I got an advice not to go for Siglent - because their products are crap (that's about what I was told).I don't know so I decided to get some help from all the nice people here. My attempt is to find some prodct that I won't regret.What I have seen on youtube for Siglent seems very nice and being cheap is not always the same as bad.I am just a hobbyist so my equipment does not have to be built for 10 hours use every day with an option to fell from 1.5 meter to the floor...

author: Peter1964
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 12, 2014, 02:54:25 pm
content: The Siglent SDG 1010 might be better - it has a frequency counter as well.It looks very nice and are cheap - low price does not always equals bad products...

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 12, 2014, 03:19:25 pm
content: Quote from: Peter1964 on May 12, 2014, 02:29:31 pmLecroy sells a lot of rebranded Siglent equipment. You can even run the Lecroy firmware on most. I doubt Lecroy would get themselves burned by selling crap... Siglent does fix firmware issues.

author: Peter1964
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 12, 2014, 04:27:37 pm
content: @nctnicoI had the same thought - Lecroy are supposed to be a quality brand so it will be stupid to sell something that is not good.A decision like that could kill the company.I do like the Siglent SDS2072 and SDG1010.A set og Rigol DS2072A and DG1032Z would be nice too.So many products - really hard for a first time buyer..

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 12, 2014, 06:18:21 pm
content: Quote from: Peter1964 on May 12, 2014, 11:48:44 am8 bits isn't enough vertical resolution to fully see what's going on. You'd need 12 bits (native, and better won't hurt of course), and that's not cheap. Even used last I checked. Which is why in the case of audio, a used analog scope is a much less expensive way to see all the information.And you can get a less expensive 8bit DSO for pretty much anything else, and adding the cost of that to the analog unit will still come in cheaper than a 12bit scope.As per a function gen, you should be able to find a decent used one under $100 here in the US with the features you're after (half of that can score you one here, but it will take more time). Not sure of EUR pricing in the used market there, but would hope ~100EUR would suffice.

author: electronics man
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 12, 2014, 07:15:43 pm
content: Quote from: Peter1964 on May 12, 2014, 02:29:31 pmErm nohttps://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/teardown-of-siglent's-sdg805-arbitrary-waveform-generator/msg434072/#msg434072The sdg805 is very good quality

author: Peter1964
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 12, 2014, 07:40:59 pm
content: Quote from: nanofrog on May 12, 2014, 06:18:21 pmI am not sure what you are saying about the 8 bit? The Rigel DS2072A and DS1074Z datasheets yield 12 bit

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 12, 2014, 08:24:45 pm
content: Quote from: Peter1964 on May 12, 2014, 04:27:37 pmI already have the SDG1010 for a while (with Lecroy's firmware) and I have no regrets. I'm planning on getting an SDS2000 scope (bigger screen and twice the sample rate compared to Rigol DS1000Z). If you can spend the extra cash I'd get a 4 channel scope.Regarding bits: 8 bits is enough. The vertical resolution on a scope isn't high enough to display more bits anyway. Especially when displaying more then one channel. For proper audio analyses you need an audio analyser or a PC based solution + a good sound card. Even with a 12 bit scope you won't spot a significant amount of harmonic distortion by just looking at the waveform.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 12, 2014, 08:39:09 pm
content: Quote from: Peter1964 on May 12, 2014, 04:27:37 pmIt comes down to your local seller.Make contact with them, get to know them. They might have demo units for you to try.

author: echen1024
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 12, 2014, 08:44:29 pm
content: For audio, you are much better off going with an analog scope. resolution referes to the levels of digitization that the scope can display, e.g. 8 bit only has 256 individual voltage levels, while 12 bit goes to 4096. The "12-bit" you see on the data sheets is software produced using boxcar averaging. A good analog scope has an infinite level of quantification.

author: senso
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 12, 2014, 08:57:29 pm
content: To be anal, for audio you want an Audio Precision:http://www.ap.com/products/2700A little bit more expensive than your typical entry level scope.

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 12, 2014, 10:54:36 pm
content: Quote from: Peter1964 on May 12, 2014, 07:40:59 pmThey're using 8bit ADC's and software, not true 12bit ADC's (is only able to produce 12bit under specific conditions, not all modes). It's not the same as a true 12bit ADC based models.

author: TVman
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 13, 2014, 03:44:02 am
content: Can I see A picture of your power supply please?Hunor

author: Peter1964
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 13, 2014, 05:06:10 am
content: I am not at home the next couple of days - pictures of PSU and the old Meratester will be here later this week. I do think I can find the diagram of the PSU and post that as well if that could be of any interest.

author: TVman
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 13, 2014, 05:07:54 am
content: Quote from: Peter1964 on May 13, 2014, 05:06:10 amOK,Thank you!

author: KJDS
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 13, 2014, 06:11:39 am
content: Quote from: echen1024 on May 12, 2014, 08:44:29 pmNo it doesn't, the electrons at the input arrive one by one.

author: Peter1964
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 13, 2014, 03:18:09 pm
content: Some recommended an used scope and maybe analog.Well today one popped up on a Danish buy/sell site:Hameg 1507-3 for EUR 300 / USD 413.I don't know about Hameg but was recommended Hameg by "gazelle".Anyone know how old that model might be and if it is good for the price?

author: Peter1964
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 14, 2014, 10:49:44 pm
content: Home again and here are some pictures of my two homemade PSU's.Also pictures of the very old Meratester analog multimeter - that has served me in many years now (about 35). The PSU must be around that age too thinking way back...Did not find the circuit diagrams for PSU1 yet - might be hidden very well somewhere - I will look for it some more another day.

author: Peter1964
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 14, 2014, 10:53:59 pm
content: Did upgrade my TestEquipment.xls - here is a new one

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 15, 2014, 12:24:57 am
content: Quote from: Peter1964 on May 13, 2014, 03:18:09 pmLink?Based on a couple of pics, it appears there was a redesign (face plate changed at least, as it's more modern looking) for scopes with the same model number (HM1507-3). The later one has both analog and digital capabilities (figure the older one is from the mid '80's, the newer one from the early/mid '90's as a guess). Not sure if the earlier one had the digital capabilities though, as I get the sense it was around the same time when Tektronix's was still building the 22xx series, which later introduced analog + digital capable models IIRC (thinking this may have been Hameg's competing model).FWIW, I found the manual to the later one (HM1507-3.02). No copyright date from what I can tell, but it might still be of some use.

author: Peter1964
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 15, 2014, 02:51:03 pm
content: So you are saying I should look at Gratten scopes/FG because they are the actual manufacture of Siglent?

author: Peter1964
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 15, 2014, 11:37:31 pm
content: Oh sorry "gazelle" it was meant like a joke. Yes I have read your nice links - thank you.We are back to Rigol I think.I actually do like the Siglent FG SDG-1010 better than the Rigol DG-1022 - but I don't know anybody that has either of them. So I just have to trust what I can find on EEV and internet in general.In here some says Siglent is crap other that at least the FG is well built in high quality. So it might not matter that much if I go for the Rigol or Siglent.Scopes are more complicated but mjlorton's preview of SDS2072 on youtube looks nice.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 16, 2014, 01:02:56 am
content: I have SDG1010 and SDS2304 demo units.I have not used either to the limit of capability.My 2304 is on loan for appraisal.i find both a pleasure to use.

author: Peter1964
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 16, 2014, 02:01:51 am
content: The one thing I am most concerned about now are support.It seems like error in software are likely to be corrected on Rigol and less likely on Siglent - but is that actually true?Anyway I have to buy Rigol in Germany and they havehttp://www.batronix.com/andhttp://www.conrad.de/.Both sells Rigol and do give good support.In Denmark Conrad have a "copy site" but the goods are sent from Germany anyway.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 16, 2014, 02:31:35 am
content: QuoteThere is plenty of discussion on this matter in this forum.I believe the reverse is true.Siglent have been proactive in this regard IMO.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 16, 2014, 03:19:52 pm
content: I agree. Siglent even provided a way to fix a small hardware problem in the early SDG1000 generators on the component level. Other software issues where fixed quite quickly as well.

author: Peter1964
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 16, 2014, 04:30:54 pm
content: that sounds nice - reading various blogs I got the impression that Siglent was not as good as Rigol.This matter where both regarding software and hardware.So the competitor sets are back to:Rigol: DS2072A + DG1022Siglent: SDS2072 + SDG1010It is a shame that the Hantek MSO5074F + HDG1012B are consider bad and poor quality - they seems cool and the scope has 4 CH.