Feynman: Mathematicians versus Physicists - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: JohnnyMalaria
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2018, 02:59:55 am
content: I hate it when people create unnecessary divisions between disciplines in the world of science, technology, engineering and mathematics.Having said that, chemists make the differencePhysicists discovered nuclear magnetic resonance - amazing - but had no idea what to do with it. Chemists figured out how the resonance is affected by neighboring atoms in a molecular. So the physicists disappeared inside the atom.Mathmeticians came up with point group theory - a most esoteric theory of no apparent use. But along came a chemist or two and figured out how it can be used to predict Raman spectra and others for different molecules and hence help elucidate structure (like NMR).Now, all that's a fat lot of use without application by learned engineers and technologists (and the life sciences).

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2018, 06:12:26 am
content: This is an interesting video!Physics, Mathematics, and Engineering are different disciplines with different cultures and practitioners are trained to work with a different mind set. That we are different is not necessarily bad. We just focus on different things, we approach things differently. and we think differently.For someone starting out in college, it is a good thing to have a deeper understanding on how different discipline shape the mind(s) differently and work the problem differently.This jokewas from one of my professor when I was in college (majoring in Physics).Some where in a college some time ago, some guy wrote this on the lecture hall blackboard: "Odd Prime Theorem: All odd numbers between 1 and 15 are primes".AMathematicianwalked by, looked at the writing on the board and said: "Well, 3 is prime, 5 is prime, 7 is prime, 9? Hmmm... 9 is not a prime. Theorem is false."Moments later, aPhysicistwalked by, looked at the writing on the board and said: "Well, 3 is prime, 5 is prime, 7 is prime, 9... hmm 9 is not a prime, 11 is a prime, 13 is a prime! ... five out of six are as predicted but one wrong result, probable experimental error. Theorem is probably correct."Moments later, anEngineerwalked by, looked at the writing on the board and said: "Well, 3 is prime, 5 is prime, 7 is prime, 9... Oh my God! 9 is a prime!! I didn't know that!!!..."

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2018, 09:34:19 am
content: "Physics is to math what sex is to masturbation: it's productive, but that's not why we do it."Tim

author: Synthtech
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2018, 09:47:13 am
content: Or: A lot of the amazing technology that people attribute to scientists is more likely the work of engineers.

author: b_force
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2018, 11:13:30 am
content: Quote from: JohnnyMalaria on June 12, 2018, 02:59:55 amYou clearly didn't study physics (and I doubt if you did Chemistry).First of all, there are a ton more subjects physicists do and actually one of the MAIN courses was molecular manner and atoms.In general chemists are more interested in the molecular structures and how they interact with each-other.The best way to explain the difference between a mathematician and physicists?After some calculations mathematicians would conclude the distance is 1/3 of a meter.For physicists this is by definition impossible since that would mean your accuracy/tolerance is zero (which is by definition impossible).So the answer would be something like 0.33 meter or even better 0.33±0.02 meter (or whatever the accuracy is)So it's pure theory vs what is physically still acceptable (even in theoretical physics)Btw, I think we can also add physics engineers vs electronics engineers, because there is also quite some difference.

author: rdl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2018, 12:50:18 pm
content: That looks like it could be from one of the "Messenger" lectures. It's been years since I last watched them, but they were very good and still available on Youtube. Well worth a look, or at least a listen.

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2018, 12:53:17 pm
content: I love doing computational material physics with classical (non-quantum) potential models, because there physics, chemistry, biology, and applied computer science merge, and there is (almost always) a way to check if the simulated results make sense, and match reality. So it is real-life useful, too. All the hard math is in the ab-initio (quantum) models, and in when someone wants to develop a new potential model (when the existing ones do not produce good enough results). There you basically need a good mathematician, too.

author: JohnnyMalaria
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2018, 01:01:50 pm
content: Quote from: b_force on June 12, 2018, 11:13:30 amYeah, I did. And I'll send my PhD certificate back to my Chemistry department then.QuoteThat's my whole point. The division between disciplines hinders advancement.I've said elsewhere that there needs to be a tongue-in-cheek emoticon.

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2018, 01:06:21 pm
content: Quote from: JohnnyMalaria on June 12, 2018, 01:01:50 pmIsn't that whatandtry to convey? If not, I can add emoticons to the list I fail at.

author: apis
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2018, 01:07:09 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on June 12, 2018, 11:09:10 amThe mathematician should be replaced by a philosopher since physics isn't simply applied mathematics. Mathematics is applied philosophy though, just like every other field.

author: b_force
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2018, 01:10:35 pm
content: Quote from: JohnnyMalaria on June 12, 2018, 01:01:50 pmThan you're reply is very crypticAnyway, it doesn't matter, in general itISa misconception I hear a lot, that's why I picked it out.I don't really think that division in anything is to blame, it's the openness of ones mind that does.Unfortunately there is sometimes a little bit to much arrogance, "pride" and testosterone among "the factions"A lot of times people lose the main goal out of sight.A discipline is nothing more than just specializing in certain subjects, just pure by the facts that one person isn't able to know everything.What's only missing in a lot of studies, is some sort of overlapping knowledge.

author: b_force
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2018, 01:14:02 pm
content: Quote from: apis on June 12, 2018, 01:07:09 pmThe way I see math is just like a tool, to communicate like a programming languages or spoken languages.With these tools you can explain and describe certain phenomena

author: firewalker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2018, 01:17:52 pm
content: Mathematics is just a trick to quantify reality?Alexander.

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2018, 01:22:08 pm
content: Quote from: b_force on June 12, 2018, 01:10:35 pmPot, meet kettle.(Note: English is not my native language. IthinkI know what that means, but I'm not sure.)

author: JohnnyMalaria
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2018, 01:34:44 pm
content: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_pot_calling_the_kettle_blackEnglish certainly can be odd even to native speakers.The British (like me) have an annoying habit/great talent for being able to hide subtle humor/criticism when communicating. My wife is a US citizen and likes to remind me that I'm very good at making insults sound like compliments or humor.This is very interesting:http://www.bbc.com/capital/story/20161028-native-english-speakers-are-the-worlds-worst-communicators

author: b_force
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2018, 01:43:43 pm
content: Quote from: JohnnyMalaria on June 12, 2018, 01:34:44 pmI absolutely know what you meanThat's why I never do these things unless I am with good friends, but especially not on international forums.And still it is a huge challenge sometimes not to get involved in heated debates caused by plain miscommunicationAnd I think that automatically makes a bridge again to the main topic.That article IS very interesting indeed and I have more than enough experiences.I especially HATE abbreviations, even in the field I am working in.It makes communication very sloppy and difficult to follow.Sometimes people even completely forget the meaning of words and start to use it the wrong way.I really believe in the fact that simpler is always better, or like Einstein said; "If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough."

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2018, 03:13:55 pm
content: Quote from: b_force on June 12, 2018, 01:43:43 pmI hate misunderstandings, and get trapped by that way too often.Quote from: b_force on June 12, 2018, 01:43:43 pmMy theory is that we humans tend to use jargon (specialist language) to bolster our own insecurities in the subject. The verbal equivalent of gathering your own soft, cuddly stuff around you, when making a nest.Quote from: b_force on June 12, 2018, 01:43:43 pmWriting ideas down as coherent text, or even just speaking them out as if you were talking to somebody unfamiliar with the subject, makes us ourselves understand things better. Hence,the Rubber Duck method.When we have an idea rattling around in our brain, it is really not as big, as fleshed out, or significant as it feels! True innovations are always the result of a lot of hard work.

author: bsudbrink
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2018, 03:21:48 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on June 12, 2018, 11:09:10 amI prefer it the other way around:Physics is a degenerate case of mathematics.Chemistry is a degenerate case of physics.Biology is a degenerate case of chemistry.

author: apis
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2018, 04:20:13 pm
content: Quote from: b_force on June 12, 2018, 01:14:02 pmYes, that is exactly right. A physics professor I had used to say that mathematics is a language.Mathematics is fundamentally very different from physics (and naturalphilosophy(aka science) in general) since math is not empirical, it's just a collection of logical proofs and algorithms (and logic is of course a branch of philosophy). Very handy indeed, but it's wrong to say physics is just applied maths. Mathematics is a very useful tool for natural science though.A lot of people don't like philosophy but in reality all of science and mathematics is just applied philosophy. That which we call philosophy is what remains, and that is among other things fringe stuff like metaphysics, which why some people think philosophy is just nonsense, which is a bit unfortunate.

author: b_force
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2018, 06:00:00 pm
content: Quote from: apis on June 12, 2018, 04:20:13 pmIn fact I think philosophy is one of the most import aspects, since there is were new ideas are born.Sociology (unfortunately missing in this little picture) is also an important chain, since it describes how we humans think and observe the world.Because we humans are also the people who do the scientific experiments, it's an essential part

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2018, 06:04:21 pm
content: Quote from: apis on June 12, 2018, 04:20:13 pmI like the fact that in a lot of physics (definitely in computational physics like simulations or modeling of real phenomena, and in anything involving any measurements), the first question you ask whenever you get some results is"Does this make any sense?"One of the tools I use a lot isdimensional analysis. It is a fancy name for a simple technique to verify if an equation or algorithm makes sense. You simply include the measurement units with the input values, and check what the measurement units you get for the result value(s). It's also an easy way to detect math errors, if you know what units you should get if you did it correctly.

author: apis
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2018, 03:57:52 pm
content: Quote from: b_force on June 12, 2018, 06:00:00 pmPhilosophy is really the foundation on which other academic fields are built, which is why it should be given much more attention.If one has a look at some definitions of philosophy it becomes clearer:Quote(Google)Quote(Wikipedia)Philosophy is really structured and logical reasoning (discussion) about some well defined problem, and that is what all scientists and engineers are doing (or should be doing). Understanding how to do it well is therefore rather important. It also makes the distinction between math and science easier to spot.Quote from: b_force on June 12, 2018, 06:00:00 pmAbsolutely. Both sociology and psychology! There is actually a sociologist in the end (beginning) of the line in the picture.Quote from: Nominal Animal on June 12, 2018, 06:04:21 pmYes, and it also gives you clues of what must be the correct form of an equation. You can only feed dimensionless quantities into the exponential or trigonometric functions for example.

author: schmitt trigger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 13, 2018, 04:01:21 pm
content: Richard Feynman was quite a character.This autobiography is both insightful and funny:https://www.amazon.com/Surely-Youre-Joking-Mr-Feynman/dp/0393355624/ref=sr_1_3?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1528905583&sr=1-3&keywords=feynman