Today is the 40th anniversary of the Soyuz space program!  - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2018, 04:02:46 am
content: Today is the 40th anniversary of the beginning of the Soyuz space program.Which made me think about the legacy of Sergei P. Korolev.He died a decade before Soyuz but by all accounts his work laid a foundation that literally propelled the Russian space program to its success today.https://www.energia.ru/en/news/news-2018/news_01-10.htmlA really remarkable record of both safety and cooperation.I hope we see MANY more years of cooperation and successful endeavors between the peoples of ALL nations in space.

author: ivaylo
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2018, 08:23:21 am
content: Amen!

author: IanMacdonald
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2018, 08:40:38 am
content: Korolev was indeed a remarkable engineer.

author: donotdespisethesnake
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2018, 08:59:21 am
content: The story behind the Soviet space program and it's implementation is quite remarkable. Korolev was inspired by futurist visionaries like Konstantin Tsiolkovsky (who conceived the idea of a space elevator in 1895, and believed humanity must colonise space). On the flip side, the Soviet technology was amazingly primitive. A colleague who saw an early Soyuz capsule said it was mostly empty, apart from some seats and what looked like a mix of valves and plumbing. (The space museum in Moscow shared a site with a car dealership).There's a good documentary on the Soviet achievements on the BBC, I can't recall the name. I guess the irony is that the Soviets initiated the "Space race" as a way to challenge the USA and to demonstrate Soviet superiority, which ultimately failed, and provided a spectacular success for the USA. The Soviet attempt to land men on the Moon was quietly cancelled after multiple failures of the launch vehicle.Rumors suggest the Russian space program is on the verge of collapse, they simply can't afford to continue it. When SpaceX capture the low cost launch market, Russian launch companies are pretty much dead.QuoteYour timeline is off there, he designed the first Soyuz concept, but died in 1966, shortly before the first Soyuz was realised.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2018, 11:16:18 am
content: I think the Soviets have shown their prowess in engineering many times over during the initial and later years of space flight. They had many firsts, amongst which quite a few that the US hasn't repeated since. The first orbit, the first man in orbit, the first EVA, the first landers on and pictures from Venus, the list is long and impressive. Obviously, the N1 was a disappointment, but the fact that many designs harking back to those days are still flown today is a testament to the engineering.

author: Decoman
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2018, 12:57:28 pm
content: Dave apparently has the Saturn V rocket (or something that looks similar) in the background of some of his videos. There are some 1:144 scale models and a 1:72 (Dragon) kit for the Saturn V which can be bought on eBay.The Vostok rocket can also be bought on eBay in 1:144 scale by Airfix (and maybe some other brand).Edit: Wow, I feel old. I can't even paste the damn url's into this forum without it looking weird.Anyway I recommendhttps://www.scalemates.comfor all your scale model kit needs. You get a nice overview over what kits are there and if there are any reviews for each individual kit.I tried to link to search results, but it got messed up for me.

author: rrinker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2018, 03:03:49 pm
content: What Dave has is the Lego Saturn V. I have it as well. Considering it's made from Legos, it is amazingly intricate and detailed. Each stage even comes apart at the proper place! It's not in the traditional scale you'd get from Legos, the special astronaut figured are MUCH smaller than standard Lego Minifigs, but are in scale with the rocket. From the base of the engines to the top of the escape tower, it's a full meter tall.

author: donotdespisethesnake
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2018, 04:44:03 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on January 11, 2018, 11:16:18 amIndeed, I didn't mean to imply they lacked technical ability - space is difficult and expensive. The US program suffered several setbacks, including the disaster of Apollo 1, and near disaster with Apollo 13. Apollo was a lot more risky than people imagine, the wife of Apollo 8 astronaut Frank Borman was told by the director of flight operations that the chance of her husband returning was 50/50.It could easily have turned out different - N1 might have succeeded and Apollo failed. They were pioneers literally travelling into the unknown, remarkable times.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 11, 2018, 04:59:02 pm
content: Soyuz 27 was not nearly the first Soyuz mission, it was just to swap cosmonauts which arrived on Soyuz 26https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soyuz_26. Manned Soyuz launches began 11 years earlierhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soyuz_1. Although that had unsuccessful landing due to a parachute failure resulting in death of Vladimir Komarov, R.I.P.Quote

author: Tepe
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2018, 05:09:30 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on January 11, 2018, 04:59:02 pmIt would also have been hard to do the Apollo-Soyuz mission in July 1975 if Soyuz didn't come into existence until 40 years ago

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2018, 05:46:51 pm
content: I hope that we're all just at the beginning of our journey into space.I think many here will agree that the story of Apollo 13 is in many ways the most interesting one of them all. I think its fitting that what saved the day was the entire team's ingenuity-and duct tape.."We come in peace for all mankind"Quote from: donotdespisethesnake on January 11, 2018, 04:44:03 pm

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2018, 10:42:39 pm
content: The two major space programs are one of the best demonstrations that there is often no best way to do something. There are many ways to skin a cat. Soviets capitalized on their strengths in large boosters and went for simpler, more robust hardware. US spent much time minimizing weight in orbit. Soviets used strengths in pure mathematics to find easy to implement answers. US used strength in computational methods to find numerical solutions to the same problems.Both accomplished (and continue to accomplish) great things. One of the best parts of the current world, where we are working more or less together instead of in an out and out competition is the ability to select the best single ideas from both camps.One of the best examples I know comes from when both teams were confronted the problem of writing notes in a zero-g environment (pedants, I know the physics and this is a good description of the reality, if not being precisely true). The US invented a fancy ball point pen with a pressurized ink supply. The Soviets bought a pencil. Score one for the Soviets.

author: timb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 12, 2018, 04:31:28 am
content: Quote from: CatalinaWOW on January 11, 2018, 10:42:39 pmIn fairness to the US, they thought of using pencils but were concerned that the tips could snap off and end up shorting something out. You also have to provide sharpeners (and not just basic sharpeners either, but ones that capture the pencil shavings as you can’t have them floating around), plus you have to store the shavings and used pencils somewhere, taking up additional space and weight.For a simple orbital shot where you’re only up for a few hours a pencil works fine (and in fact the US did use pencils in early Gemini launches). However, it’s very much sub optimal for a moon shot or space shuttle mission. That’s why the Space Pen was developed. To greatly reduce waste components and weight, plus to prevent conductive pieces of lead shorting something out.The Space Pen *is* pretty awesome. I recently found a set of refills from 1980, originally owned by my grandfather (who worked for NASA) that I had put away after his death. I popped one of the refills into my pen and it worked perfectly. 36 years after manufacture.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 12, 2018, 07:15:15 am
content: I think they are celebrating the 40 years of the design that is still flying today, essentially unchanged in major design from the first one, aside from some minor equipment upgrades and changes dictated by the increased functionality of modern higher density integrated circuits and manufacturing. Basically the same mechanical design of both the booster and capsule, along with an almost unchanged return procedure.40 years of making the same vehicle, that has proven itself to be very reliable in that period as well.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 12, 2018, 07:35:26 am
content: Quote from: donotdespisethesnake on January 11, 2018, 04:44:03 pmYes, I think people severely underestimate the risks that were taken back then. It's a miracle that not a lot more people were killed. It's absolutely unimaginable that something with similar risks would be done today. It would simply not be accepted.

author: GeorgeOfTheJungle
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 12, 2018, 08:54:02 am
content: Quote from: donotdespisethesnake on January 11, 2018, 08:59:21 amYep, it's "BBC Space Race",http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0461887/, Sergei Korolev ("their" Von Braun) had severe health problems and finally died on 14 January 1966 which is very likely why they didn't win a space race they were already winning by much by then.OTOH, it seems the US of A lost much time in failed attempts to favor other projects than the one of "that german nazi", in a sort of a 50/50 NIH syndrome + in the eyes of the tax payers it's not allright to have a nazi commanding such an uber-expensive and important project.

author: oldway
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 12, 2018, 09:25:07 am
content: Quote from: GeorgeOfTheJungle on January 12, 2018, 08:54:02 amMy impression is that Von Braun was especially passionate about rockets and the conquest of space.At the time when he lived in Germany, he had no option but to be a member of the Nazi party to realize his dream and satisfy his passion.Then, I leave him the benefit of the doubt as to his Nazi convictions, on the other hand, he has all my admiration for his genius and achievements in the field of space conquest.

author: GeorgeOfTheJungle
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 12, 2018, 11:52:17 am
content: Quote from: oldway on January 12, 2018, 09:25:07 amHuh, I don't even feel the need to leave him that because I don't, unlike most US of A citizens (*), automatically portray nazi germans as jew killer psycopaths. To know more, chat with an elder german about this. Soon, before they all die.(*) That's why I said "in the eyes of the (USA) tax payers"

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 12, 2018, 09:52:14 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on January 12, 2018, 07:35:26 amI think our search for near-absolute safety impaired much of our research even beyond space science. It is interesting how people perceive risk. Skydiving deaths is about 1 in 100,000. Casual web search shows (pre 2015 numbers*) annual skydiving dead toll at about 3 dozen plus per year at about 3 million-ish jumps per year. That is a hell of a lot more than space flight. Heck, judging purely from reported shoot-downs, looks like even the US military pilots flying in Iraq has a lower death toll.*Pre-2015 numbers are all > 37 deaths, 2015 logged in at 4 and no entry after 2015. So I am assuming 2015's number is partial. Death-toll are from link below and number of jumps from other web searches.https://www.statisticbrain.com/skydiving-statistics/Annual highway deaths is about 30,000 to 35,000 per year. That is just people doing daily activities. So, I think we have a lot more room to take on more risk on worthy causes..Quote from: GeorgeOfTheJungle on January 12, 2018, 11:52:17 amAnother aspect is that Von Braun's science was not significantly dependent on the NAZI autocraciess compared to another NAZI scientist such as Josef Mengele.True that his V rockets (and facilities) were build by Jewish slave laborers, but that is a far cry from using Jewish twin children as medical experiment objects. Any Germans at that point in time probably ate some food grown by Jewish slave laborers, transported on roads build or maintained by Jewish slave laborers. He is not entire guilt-free, but is at least in my mind more forgivable than Mengele's guilt.Both the USA and the Russians did something very special. With both USA and Russians slowing down, now it is time to watch the Chinese. According to press reports, the Chinese will be trying for a landing on the far side of the moon.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 12, 2018, 10:06:52 pm
content: Quote from: oldway on January 12, 2018, 09:25:07 amI try not to judge historical figures through the lens of today. I did not live in nazi Germany so I can't really relate to what it was like, but I could certainly believe that it was prudent to join the party in power if one wanted to succeed in anything big. Totalitarian regimes have a tendency to dispose of anyone they view as anything less than a loyal supporter. I suspect there were a lot of nazi party members who were not fanatics and were not involved or knowledgeable about much of the darker stuff that was going on, and others who's moral compass had been skewed by the rather convincing herd. It's entirely possible that some future generation will judge any one of us harshly for doing things or holding opinions that seem perfectly reasonable and acceptable from our perspective today.

author: cdev
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2018, 03:43:46 am
content: I once worked with somebody who later died in space. I can tell you, it definitely does happen.The risk is real.Also, James, I think the thing we will be judged on is our tendency to take false positions in arguments which have hugely horrible effects on people as a way of rationalizing large scale economic crimes. For example, groups of people in positions of power pursuing medical economics experiments they already know wont work, on a living country, for financial and geopolitical reasons, while hiding thesets of facts that would reveal the real reasonsfrom the public - while pretending they are arguing (and are unrealistically stupid) and that its being done in good faith - when it isnt.