Rigol "amazing" service in Europe - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 13, 2013, 04:43:25 pm
content: I bought DM3068 6½-digit multimeter from Rigol authorized distributor Lemona that is Lithuanian company but also has one shop in Riga. I used it about 2 weeks before I noticed huge 4 digits offset on AC current ranges. Therefore, I returned it back for warranty repair. Today it arrived back after 3 months and 20 days being away. It was sent to Germany, nothing were repaired there and they tell me that 3-4 digit offset on all AC current ranges and some of the AC voltage ranges is completely within specks. I calculated BTW, it is not. They say that I must look at noise characteristics in 6-2 and 6-3 chapters in the manual (those are DC characteristics BTW). What should I see there that gives 4 digits offset??? The most fascinating thing is mailing between some Lithuanian and German guys which salesman gave to me. They clearly see the problem, German guy says that on his DM3068 multimeter offset is 0 and still they return mine from Germany saying that I’m a dumbass. BTW salesman I spoke with is a good guy and no problems with him, he understands that problem is there, he just transferred me the information. Check the video.Manual:http://www.rigol.com/download/Oversea/DMM/User_guide/DM3068_UserGuide_EN.pdf

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2013, 05:22:20 pm
content: Do you know the name of the German company?

author: tinhead
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2013, 05:27:04 pm
content: Quote from: madires on August 13, 2013, 05:22:20 pmlol

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 13, 2013, 05:38:38 pm
content: Rigol Technologies EU GmbH

author: Bored@Work
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2013, 05:48:53 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on August 13, 2013, 04:43:25 pmYou don't show what is really connected to the meter, that makes it look suspicious.Anyhow, if the salesman is such a good guy, ask for your money back.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 13, 2013, 06:00:08 pm
content: Quote from: Bored@Work on August 13, 2013, 05:48:53 pmThat's just a 30 cm wire shorting voltage terminals. Current terminals are not connected at all. If something makes you suspicious in the email they measured the same things. To return a money Rigol must conclude that multimeter is defective. That sales guy doesn't own this company, so not he decides about that. Anyway I received it only today, will try to write to that German guy from Rigol in the first place I think. BTW Europe and Eastern Europe especially is not a USA where you can just return anything that easily.

author: mariush
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2013, 06:39:09 pm
content: If you ordered it online and didn't buy it in person, you have 7 or 10 working days to return it to the store no questions asked. It's EU regulation.Doesn't mean you will get your money back instantly, it may take a couple of weeks to give you refund, and in some cases they may take 10% off or something like that if you don't send it back completely as it came to you (all packaging etc)

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 13, 2013, 06:41:18 pm
content: Those 10 working days were 4 month ago...

author: KedasProbe
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2013, 07:52:08 pm
content: Did you run the self test? (got any error code?)Are you sure you have the latest firmware version? (I can forward a small DSP update I got to you from Rigol)This is my screenshot, it shows 0 on all ACI ranges (taken with my program in my other thread)(nothing connected)Did you also try to attach a known signal to verify?

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 13, 2013, 08:16:43 pm
content: It passes self test. Before I was returning it, I contacted Rigol for the new firmware and it was latest at that time - 01.01.00.01.07.00. Now I searched old emails and actually I received reply about firmware from the same German guy I mentioned. I feeded AC signal from DG4062, it's seems to work, shows similar readings like my U1272A. But with such jumping offset it's precision should be like a $20 meter has.

author: KedasProbe
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2013, 08:46:26 pm
content: I checked the readings that are stored in double precision (in .xdat) for ACI (open) and they are all exact 0.This would mean that the software is putting them at 0 because it isn't detecting an AC signal.Have you already tried it in an other room (interference....)Do you see something if you use dual screen for frequency?The signal is still jumping around with the DG4062?If you tell me which settings (above 3Hz) you generate I can do the same test with my DG4102 and tell/show you what I see on it.

author: dr.diesel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2013, 08:51:55 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on August 13, 2013, 05:38:38 pmDon't feel left out though, their support here in the States is crap as well. I tried 3 times to get a firmware update, finally had to turn to the forum to get it, they simply ignored me.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 13, 2013, 08:59:53 pm
content: I think it's not worth. DG4062 isn't very precise equipment and U1272A also is multimeter of different class with lower resolution and precision. The thing is that I don't need to test anything because problem exists and is very apparent. That offset is out of spec (% of reading +% of range) which is actually only % of range because reading is 0. Topic is about something another, how they managed to decide that this behavior is OK even if it's totally different on German man's multimeter. If I didn't see that email conversation I wouldn't start this topic at all.

author: KedasProbe
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2013, 09:20:27 pm
content: Since it isn't defined below 3Hz something small (external) could change its behaviour that's why I suggest to prove that it doesn't work in the specified range, or even in an other environment.

author: Electro Fan
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2013, 11:26:57 pm
content: wraper, I hope somehow Rigol rallies some support for you.On a somewhat related but slightly off topic question - how has Tequipment.net been doing for Rigol users? Seems like they answer the phone and take orders pretty well and it seems like a popular place in the U.S. for buying Rigol gear. Anyone here have any reason to need Tequipment.net to get support/service/repairs on Rigol equipment? Or is there a way to get Rigol support in the U.S. directly from Rigol if you need a repair? Thx, EF

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 14, 2013, 01:09:13 am
content: Read thedatasheetmore carefully, especially footnotes 4 and 8 in the AC specs table. This meter is not specified for values less than 1% of range, and is allowed 0.1% of range extra error between 1% and 5% of range. In the 200 uA range you measured 0.11 uA. The RMS of this offset and a 10 uA signal (5% of range) is sqrt(10^2+0.11^2) = 10.0006 uA. It is allowed 0.12 uA error on this range at any frequency, so well within spec. Now for a 2 uA signal (1% of range), the reading would be 2.003 uA, even though it is allowed 0.32 uA error.My guess is that the performance verification they refer you to tests the AC ranges at 5% and 100% of range (or something close). They probably performed these tests and concluded (like my math shows) that the meter is within spec. The tech support person replied to you did apparently not have enough knowledge to give you the correct explanation, but I see no reason either to suspect a defect meter.See also aKeithley FAQabout this very issue. The analog AC RMS-to-DC converter (AD637?) is non-linear for low values. They can either remove the offset and have the non-linearity cause errors for higher values, or just ignore the lower 5% and only use the linear 5-100% range. (almost) All manufacturers choose the latter. The Rigol meter offers similar performance to bench meters made in the last thirty years or so in this regard.If you want superior AC performance at lower ranges, get a meter that digitally samples the signal to calculate an RMS instead of the venerable AD637 analog True RMS AC-to-DC converter. For example the HP/Agilent 3458A and the Agilent 34410A/34411A. Not sure about the recent low-end models. I think our resident Fluke 8846 fanboy also posted some fairly good results from that meter.Edit: You're correct, 0.1%, not 1%. Fixed.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 14, 2013, 01:26:44 am
content: You are right partially, I missed that somehow, while I looked for such footnotes for lowest % actually. Bet there are two things. This meter didn't behave like this for the first 2 weeks and there are no such behavior on other people's DM3068. And there are also such a thing that this meter has lost last 3 digits of resolution (i'm not talking about precision) because they became jumping garbage. And how it can be that half of the ACV ranges have offset but others doesn't.Quote from: alm on August 14, 2013, 01:09:13 am0.1% of the range extra error, not 1% BTW

author: Owen
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2013, 01:59:44 pm
content: You've leaved the current jack open... If you take a look at your manual page 33, you'll see the correct way to connect it. Would you please connect it right and than short the probes? Is it right now?

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 14, 2013, 02:28:39 pm
content: I assume it was measured with the correct connections and this was just for taking a quick picture.Are the last three digits only jumping with the terminals shorted, or also when connected to a voltage/current more than 5% of range? Now to find an AC voltage/current source that is stable down to the sixth digit.Does changing the NPLC have any effect on the magnitude of the fluctuations? You should be able to use stats functions to quantify the fluctuations. Just because some meters might be substantially better does not mean that every meter they sell has to be as good. Arguing about fluctuations (that also depend on the source), that it used to work better or works better on other meters is tricky, since this is not generally specified in the spec sheet.Did you try repeating the measurements in a different physical location (eg. work instead of home)? An external interference source may have appeared, exposing poor EMC.Why some ranges have offset and others don't: I'm not familiar with its internals, but it may alternatingly switch in an extra amplifier that affects the offset. In my opinion any AC measurement with shorted terminals is irrelevant because I expect an offset for conventional true RMS meters. This offset will not substantially affect the accuracy in the 5-100% range, even if it fluctuates. I don't have a Rigol DMM to test, though.I fixed the factor 10 error in the offset accuracy, thanks.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 14, 2013, 03:18:54 pm
content: I measured 100mA 50Hz AC current an 2A range. U1272A was connected in series and showed rock solid 100.04 - 100.05mA current in all period of experiment. Rigol showed 0.100,6.. A at the begining, in ~30 seconds it dropped to 0.100,3.. A, then jumped to 0.100.9.. A in couple of minutes. All 3 last digits jumping all the time. This was to prove that it is crap also on >5% range. There is AC filter setting only for AC on slowest 3Hz it averages jumping in short term but in long term it doesn't help. About different place, guy in Lithuania got the same result. Whatever EMC would be an all ranges (there are couple ACV ranges free of that) and I would need a working magnetron in my room to achieve this. This is 100% a fault because as I said it had not any of these problems in the beginning.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 14, 2013, 03:28:41 pm
content: Quote from: Owen on August 14, 2013, 01:59:44 pmI also tried to short current jacks, that gives nothing. BTW I don't think that shorting 50 mOhm shunt on 2A and 10A range will make any sense.

author: KedasProbe
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2013, 04:20:32 pm
content: In case you want to compare your device with mine: 5Vrms/27k is about 185µA (1kHz)(My DM3068 wasn't warmed up)Notice: that the current isn't high enough for the 200mA range and the DMM firmware decides to make them zero. (you see it did one measurement before making all following values 0)ThenI increased the 5Vrms to 7Vrms over the 27K resistor and then you see values on the 200mA range (although this is obviously not the range you use for this measurement.)

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 14, 2013, 05:29:37 pm
content: Here is a trend on 2A range, 50Hz sine. U1272A daisplayed 100,08mA all the time without any fluctuation. Added trend on 20mA range measuring 2mA for one hour. Current drifted by 0,6 uA in long term but was rock solid on short term according to U1272A. DM3068 readings fluctuate by 5uA. Therefore last 3 digits are not more than fluctuating rubbish on both ranges (4 digits on screenshots because multimeter adds 1 digit to the end and doesn't display the first).KedasProbe, thanks for measurments.

author: good_cap/bad_cap
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2013, 06:05:33 pm
content: Be careful with updating the firmware of these DMMs. I got a newer firmware for my DM3061 from Rigol EU Support. After the upgrade, the meter was out of calibration. Afterwards, they told me that it has to be recalibrated after the update. Since the newer firmware did not solve my problem, I was able to go back to the old one. Luckily, the cal data had not been altered....

author: KedasProbe
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2013, 07:07:28 pm
content: Quote from: good_cap/bad_cap on August 14, 2013, 06:05:33 pmThanks for the warning, how did you know it was out of calibration? did the self test indicate it, did you measure it or was there an other clear indication?anyone knows if this is also the case for the DM3068?

author: good_cap/bad_cap
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2013, 03:21:04 pm
content: Ups, sorry, I got not informed about your reply...The self test did not indicate any errors, but the readings were completely wrong (e.g. 10V instead of 3.3V.). I think they changed the eeprom layout/addresses so it read wrong cal values with the newer firmware. I was lucky it didn't overwrite the cal data with other settings. so I could go back.But Rigol support should have warned me about that before giving me the firmware....

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2013, 03:35:45 pm
content: Quote from: Electro Fan on August 13, 2013, 11:26:57 pmYou should be able to get help directly fromhttp://www.rigolna.com/here in the US.If you're after newer firmware, they have a request page (http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/form/1579/0012:d-0001/1/index.htm).

author: mcinque
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 21, 2013, 06:44:29 pm
content: Quote from: good_cap/bad_cap on August 14, 2013, 06:05:33 pmD*ckheads.

author: SharpEars
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 30, 2015, 04:54:53 pm
content: Quote from: mcinque on October 21, 2013, 06:44:29 pmChanging calibration data locations after a firmware upgrade is reason enough for me to never buy a product from this company. The last thing I want is to have to go through a full-recalibration process after a firmware upgrade. I view this as an even bigger problem if a company is not supportive of its products post-sale.

author: timofonic
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2015, 05:40:50 pm
content: Rigol: Fuck you...

author: pascal_sweden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2015, 05:45:16 pm
content: They should reserve a "safe area" where the calibration parameters are located in the flash memory, which never gets overwitten by newer firmware updates. They should anticipate that a newer firmware version can be bigger in size. E.g. take the current firmware size, add 30-50% extra space, and make sure that the calibration parameters are not interfering with the firmware location range.Or another smart approach would be that the firmware update process collects the factory calibration parameters at the current expected location (where the current firmware knows they are located) and moves them accordingly to the new expected location (where the new firmware version expects them to be located). This implementation should be feasible as one is not supposed to interrupt the firmware update process anyhow, irrespective whether the process involves the retrieval and location replacement of calibration parameters.If one really has to do a new calibration, it should be possible to do it yourself. Or why not have a low-level auto calibration feature, using some kind of D/A converter to generate an internal reference signal in different ranges to cover the overall measurement range, and perform a fully automated calibration.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 30, 2015, 06:04:13 pm
content: Quote from: Circuiteromalaguito on July 30, 2015, 05:40:50 pm+1, Fuck you Rigol. Almost forgot about this tread. BTW I got may meter exchanged at the end. Just destroyed AC measurements completely because was nuts from dealing with them. Of course replacement meter didn't have this issue. After more than half a year of frustration, they replaced my barely used meter with some nasty repaired unit. It had TVS diode replaced on the PCB which itself was burned too with one pad coming off the PCB. Meter was really dirty on the inside and on the outside too. Fuck them as I didn't want to waste more of my time. Well, at least it works. On the first picture How this repair looked like, on the second picture you can see what was under the TVS, I removed it to solder it back normally as it was soldered really nasty.

author: pascal_sweden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2015, 06:08:45 pm
content: Are you saying that they are replacing a faulty unit with another already repaired unit?WTF is this!!??!!My understanding of a replacement is a factory new unit, that rolls out of the assembly line.This is just insane! I think that this is actually not even allowed within European legislations!You should check with the consumer department of your government.Either they repair *your own* unit for the problem in particular, or they replace with a *new* unit.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 30, 2015, 06:24:59 pm
content: Refubs are allowed (and many in US and EU do so, for example, Dell). But this replacement meter don't even come close to the meaning of the word "refubrished", at least at my understanding.

author: pascal_sweden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2015, 06:30:59 pm
content: My understanding was that if they give you a new unit, that they can then sell the returned unit as a refurbished unit again, clearly specifying that the unit for sale is a refurbished unit, available at a serious discount.I thought that refurbished units can only be sold again on the market externally, but can not be used as replacements in the internal repair process.The reason why I am thinking like this: when you get the repaired unit back, it comes with a troubleshooting report, indicating what they found during the troubleshooting, and what they fixed. Of course this should correspond to the unit which you have sent in, otherwise it does not make any sense to deliver a troubleshooting report with the unit.If this is possible in the US, then I guess at least they have to inform you, that the unit which you received back, is not a new unit, neither your repaired unit, but a refurbished unit from the refurbishment pool.What if the unit that you send in for repair would contain private or sensitive data?Probably it is not a real issue for test measurement equipment, but you never know. They should at least have a clear policy on how they handle the data, and whether they would wipe it before the unit would be added to the refurbishment pool.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 30, 2015, 06:39:12 pm
content: Quote from: pascal_sweden on July 30, 2015, 06:30:59 pmIIRC Dell guarantees new replacement only 30 days after purchase. After that, most likely you'll receive a refub. But on the other hand they even ship replacement before you sand them a faulty unit (only in US). In EU their service sucks.Mobile phone manufacturers do replace with refubs too but in lesser extent.QuoteThey must securely erase it, in case of HDD they must test it anyway for bad sectors.

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2015, 09:45:08 pm
content: Having been raised in Spain and dealing with Europe over the years, the only way to get good support in Europe is by paying through the nose or purchasing large quantities of equipment, and still your mileage might vary.In the US if you screw up you get canned.Maybe contact Rigol.com directly about your experiences and show them this thread. They might not be able to fire lazy arrogant support engineers but at least they can put pressure on Rigol Technologies EU GmbH itself.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2015, 10:27:26 pm
content: Quote from: pascal_sweden on July 30, 2015, 05:45:16 pmYeah right. Got $50K worth of certified cal gear have you?

author: pascal_sweden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2015, 10:45:16 pm
content: I meant calibration in DJ style. See EEVBlog video about calibration of Tektronix 2225.This actually confirms that you could do more yourself with analog scopesOf course it would take a lot of time, and it would never be perfect if you don't have 100% accurate reference. But at least you could do it yourself and achieve some reasonable level of accuracy.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 30, 2015, 11:18:47 pm
content: Quote from: pascal_sweden on July 30, 2015, 10:45:16 pmYes, but IF (and it's a big IF), you have a Service manual that includes Calibration procedures.

author: TheSteve
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 30, 2015, 11:49:05 pm
content: This thread confirms that the only Rigol product I will ever own will be the DS1054Z. More and more I see the value in quality used items from HP/Agilent/Tektronix etc.

author: Noise Floor
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 31, 2015, 01:50:55 am
content: This thread depresses me.

author: pascal_sweden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 31, 2015, 01:38:30 pm
content: I was not aware, that if you send in a unit for repair, that you could get a refurbished unit as replacement.I can understand that they would tolerate this practice, if it would be a refurbished unit for an identical repair. E.g. in case of epidemic failure, where many units are all repaired for one and the same problem.But it should not be tolerated that you send in a unit for recalibration and get a unit back that is completely reworked on the PCB side, after a serious damage (e.g. strike by lightning).I can think of several issues, when they send back units from the refurbishment pool:1) What if you send in a unit on which you still have hundreds of hours left for the trial options?Will you loose your trial options? Or would they re-activate them after the repair?2) What if you send in a unit that is only 4 months old, and get back a unit which is more than 2 years old? That means that you just lost the remaining warranty period of 20 months? How would Rigol manage the housekeeping for the remaining warranty period?3) Will you get back the same serial number in your repaired unit? What if you bought some extra options that are linked to your particular scope and serial number?4) If you always kept good care of your unit and have to send it in for a small issue, then get back a unit that is completely reworked, it is more likely going to fail after the warranty period is expired, compared to when you would get back your original repaired unit. So even if you take good care of your scope, you can be punished really hard for just one small repair activity.Would be really interesting to ask Rigol about these questions and see what their feedback is!

author: GlowingGhoul
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 31, 2015, 03:36:28 pm
content: So it seems the moment you have a problem with a piece of Rigol equipment it ceases to be a "bargain".Rigol=Won Hung Lo in a nicer case.

author: mcinque
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 31, 2015, 04:14:58 pm
content: Some months ago I managed the dp832 (with two bought options installed) issue.By contacting Rigol and complaining loudly about the issue, they have called my local distributor to arrange the replacement.My distributor sent me a brand new unit and only after they take the defective one.After a couple of days they sent me two new serial keys for the options I've bought.I needed to write a lot of emails over three months to make me hear from them.Only blaming directly Rigol Europe about their horrific service has solved my issue.After all I'm satisfied, for this prices I know I can't expect the same support as Agilent.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 31, 2015, 04:52:49 pm
content: Quote from: mcinque on July 31, 2015, 04:14:58 pmOne of the biggest disappointments was that this DM3068 wasn't bargain at all compared to their oscilloscopes. It was only like 20-25% cheaper than Agilent 34401A. Also by the time it arrived back without any result (4 months since sent to them), Agilent 34461A already came outwhich was no brainer to buy compared to this Rigol(and I used this DM3068 only for two weeks before my relationship with Rigol started). In the end I just bought 34461A and sent DM3068 to them a third time but before sending, intentionally completely destroyed AC measurements so they cannot claim that it works. Now I have two meters in the result.

author: pascal_sweden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 31, 2015, 05:15:05 pm
content: Does Agilent still make the 34401A model or did they stopped producing?I like the more modest display better than the new modelWhat prices is that multimeter going these days?

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 31, 2015, 05:26:58 pm
content: Quote from: pascal_sweden on July 31, 2015, 05:15:05 pmThere was announcement recently that they will be discontinued soon.Quote

author: pascal_sweden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 31, 2015, 05:34:53 pm
content: Can you recommend a distributor in Europe who has this Agilent multimeter and who provides good after-sales support?

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 31, 2015, 06:16:17 pm
content: I bought mine from farnell. Didn't deal with their after sales support though. But if anything, you can deal with Keysight directly and will get a very good support anyway.

author: GlowingGhoul
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 31, 2015, 06:16:29 pm
content: Quote from: pascal_sweden on July 31, 2015, 05:34:53 pmOne in stock at a good price:http://www.tme.eu/en/details/34401a/benchtop-digital-multimeters/keysight-technologies/

author: pascal_sweden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 31, 2015, 07:06:25 pm
content: Thanks for the link.I noticed that the newer model (34461A) is actually cheaper than the traditional model (34401A), while it has a colour screen.And for little more money, I can get the 34410A with data logging. So it might be better to go for that older model.However, isn't the older model supposed to be cheaper, given that it has been around for a long time, and is going to be phased out by the newer model with colour screen?

author: GlowingGhoul
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 31, 2015, 08:14:30 pm
content: Quote from: pascal_sweden on July 31, 2015, 07:06:25 pmThe older units are more expensive to manufacture, and have some difficult to obtain parts. Keysight has been on a campaign pleading with users familiar with the older units to try the newer models, going so far as to highlight that several engineers who worked on the originals are also on the team that developed the new units.Personally, at this point I would get a 34465A, with far better specs and features, for roughly the same amount as the 34410A.

author: bingo600
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2015, 06:00:31 pm
content: Quote from: pascal_sweden on July 31, 2015, 05:15:05 pmI'm sure you gan get a nice price @KJDShttps://www.eevblog.com/forum/buysellwanted/fshpagilent-34401a-6-5-digit-multimeters//Bingo

author: SharpEars
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 10, 2015, 06:07:51 pm
content: Quote from: TheSteve on July 30, 2015, 11:49:05 pmI am completely in agreement. Buy from a company that stands behind their product!

author: SharpEars
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 10, 2015, 06:10:19 pm
content: Quote from: mcinque on July 31, 2015, 04:14:58 pmWho in their right mind wants to wait 3-6 months for a unit that has gone defective to be replaced by a junker (or even a new unit if you're really REALLY lucky)?This is not customer support. When I buy a product and it breaks under warranty I expect to make one phone call (two at most) and get an RMA with a reasonable expectation that I will have a functional unit within several weeks.

author: SharpEars
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 10, 2015, 06:11:50 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on July 31, 2015, 04:52:49 pmNow your unit with "intentionally completely destroyed AC measurements" will be unloaded on some fool as a refurb or replacement!

author: mcinque
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 10, 2015, 07:05:06 pm
content: Quote from: SharpEars on August 10, 2015, 06:10:19 pmYou're right. However in that case the PSU wasn't broken, there was "only" a heatsink issue that would shorten the life of the instrument by a couple of years. Waiting 6 or 12 months does not change the thing for me: I knew that would have been replaced.Quote from: SharpEars on August 10, 2015, 06:10:19 pmTotally agree. Customer support. That's exactly what we're paying when we choose Agilent, Fluke, Keysight etc; we pay more - even with a Rigol DSO simply rebranded by Agilent - because with that money they can manage their customer support.

author: SharpEars
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 10, 2015, 07:19:32 pm
content: Quote from: mcinque on August 10, 2015, 07:05:06 pmIt's not just rebranded by Agilent/Keysight, they also do more testing and stand behind it. They care about their brand's image. The only thing Rigol about it may be the original unit's design.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 10, 2015, 07:36:45 pm
content: Quote from: SharpEars on August 10, 2015, 06:11:50 pmI guess that "fool" was rather lucky compared to me. Almost new meter (two weeks of light use) and they won't get away with like replacing transil without removing the PCB out of the case like in my current meter, I bet they even haven't done recalibration. I destroyed AD637, that fella didn't wan't to die, needed some effort to kill it, very sturdy IC. So I guess they just replaced PCB completely.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 10, 2015, 07:50:19 pm
content: BTW about that burned transil. Engineer who put it there is an idiot. It is connected in parralel with the secondary winding of the transformer. The thing is, it's clamping voltage don't have any margin, IIRC if you power the meter with like 240V AC, it already should start clamping the peaks. No wonder it failed.

author: mcinque
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 10, 2015, 09:09:30 pm
content: However, do we get support with Siglent? And with Atten? I guess it's more or less the same story than Rigol, but then why most complaints are about Rigol only?

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2015, 09:23:43 pm
content: Quote from: mcinque on August 10, 2015, 09:09:30 pmYes, Siglent does some support, and apparently has in some occasions even sent out free replacement boards to users so that they didn't have to send their device back to mainland China.They also don't have as much a presence in Europe and the US as Rigol does but they seem to be working on expanding that, i.e. they recently opened a support center in the US.And based on a few attempts to contact their support a few years back (when all they had was support in China) I have to say that they replied to every email I sent them, even if the reply was often Chinglish. Rigol on the other side was hit and miss (more miss than hit to be honest).QuoteMaybe because Rigol sells a lot more equipment under their own name than Atten and Siglent?I also assume it's fine for you if a manufacturer provides crap support because there are others doing the same?

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2015, 09:29:05 pm
content: Quote from: SharpEars on August 10, 2015, 06:10:19 pmPeople who's time isn't worth anything I guess, especially when it involves writing tons of emails to get their attention. In reality, that Rigol bargain might have cost you as much as the gold-plated solution from Keysight or any other big brand who actually provide something that deserves to be called "customer support".QuoteFully agree.

author: mcinque
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 11, 2015, 07:57:10 am
content: Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on August 10, 2015, 09:23:43 pmGood to know for my next purchases!Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on August 10, 2015, 09:23:43 pmOf course not.What I want to say is that we have other brands on the market offering crappy (or no) support for their similar priced instruments, so it's a curious thing to read complaints about only one company.Like you said, it's probably a matter of number of units sold, so more customers for one brand means more users with customer support issues.But it seem to me that is many cases it was like if someone has been forced to buy Rigol:they never provided a good support, this is a known issue.So why continue to purchase Rigol and then be astonished of their crappy support?If you buy their instruments, the best (and only) thing you can do is to have confidence in your reseller, not in the manufacturer support.Only my opinion.

author: SharpEars
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 11, 2015, 04:55:44 pm
content: Quote from: mcinque on August 11, 2015, 07:57:10 amYou would be hard pressed to find any reseller that will support you more than 30 days after purchase. This is just a fact of life. I don't spend $1,000 and expect a 30 day "warranty" from the reseller. I expect the year or more the manufacturer gives me to be honored and to be honored faithfully. Otherwise, Iblacklistthe manufacturer.

author: gmb42
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 11, 2015, 06:35:14 pm
content: Quote from: SharpEars on August 11, 2015, 04:55:44 pmThat depends on your legal jurisdiction. In the EU your contract is with the seller and you have an automatic 2 year guarantee. Seehttp://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/shopping/shopping-abroad/guarantees/index_en.htm.Of course the seller may well go back to the manufacturer for support, but that's not the buyers concern.

author: SharpEars
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 12, 2015, 04:52:18 pm
content: Quote from: gmb42 on August 11, 2015, 06:35:14 pmWow, it's amazing that any Chinese crap can sell under these conditions...

author: mcinque
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 13, 2015, 09:00:51 am
content: Quote from: SharpEars on August 12, 2015, 04:52:18 pmWell, I think it's more a reseller's issue.Any real company that want to survive on the market more than a year should not sell products without support.On eBay or other international markets, the things are different, anyone can sell an then disappear.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 13, 2015, 11:21:19 am
content: Quote from: mcinque on August 11, 2015, 07:57:10 amKeep in mind that this is essentially hear-say, I personally haven't seen this happening (only read about it, if I remember right even in this forum) so I wouldn't rely on Siglent still doing that or even just doing that if you need it.But I guess our resident Siglent resellers in this forum could (if required) order spare parts from Siglent, which would still be more than a Rigol reseller can do.QuoteAlso don't forget that Dave has reviewed much more Rigol kit than Siglent which probably increases Rigol being favored amongst his viewers.QuoteI guess it's a basic human instinct - greed. At the end the offer is a low price for some brand new piece of equipment, which in many people triggers the bargain hunting instinct. I personally would buy a second-hand big brand instrument over a Rigol (or Siglent) device any day, but very few share that view.QuoteWell, in my experience most resellers are only good if all they need to do is to stick a label to a box and send it off. Better ones may be able to organize spares but no reseller has the capability to fix inherent flaws/bugs, which essentially means a very long wait for a fix (best case) or you're lost.

author: DD4DA
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 16, 2015, 12:28:56 pm
content: Even that None of us would like to get this kinda trouble, but you should remembered that you paid less than the half of the value of HP, Fluke or R&S. This has consequences and reliablility and the quality of the support are the first point where the money will be saved.The Rigol support behavior is not exclusive by Rigol - my experineces are similar with HP, Fluke/Phillips or other brands on the market. I have also some experiences with the EU Support of Rigol and they are very fast and solved the problems immediately.I had checked your descripted issue with the ACI Digit free-run and can't confirm them in my both Units. I had seen in the Video that your device contained an older Firmware - i use 02.02.00 in my both Units.I'm be with you about the repair Quality. That's unprofessional and i had send the unit back with an picture and letter. Refurbished does'nt means that the unit could comes back in dirty conditions.My advantage is, the the support is in germany instead anywhere in world or likely the east of europe, like HP, Fluke and others. I can phone them and i am in the same legal sphere.I have the same Problem with every part of consumer electronics, if i need to use the warrenty. The companies are far far away and the support is mostly rubbished. This is one of the reason why i decide me for products that comes from Germany or they companies has a support channel in germany.The next Sectrum analyzer and Dig.Oscilloscope will be a R&S (Hameg). It's not important where the products are produced, but i take care where the support are.Cu

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 16, 2015, 03:52:50 pm
content: Quote from: DD4DA on August 16, 2015, 12:28:56 pmPaid about 25% less than Agilent 34401A did cost at that time.