Software tools to create double-sided circuit boards? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / projects

author: leonababy
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2020, 02:30:42 am
content: I have made only one circuit board in my life - it was 30 years ago, single sided and everything was done by hand. Fast forward to today, and I have several clock circuits I would like to have double-sided boards made for, and I have a pressing project that will require me to finally jump into the water. I bought a vintage unbuilt Heathkit GC-1000 clock kit, and two of the circuit boards are missing. My applications will all be less than 10 KHz circuits.The circuits in question will have DIP's of various sizes, some surface mount components, nixie tube sockets, etc. I don't mind laying all of them out by hand - I don't believe I need a program that automatically does the routing.The first board I need to have made is shown in the attachment - foil from both sides is shown. The board is about 2.6" x 6". I use Photoshop for various graphics design, but my guess is I need a custom piece of software that manages multiple board layers, trace routing, hole sizes, etc. I have no idea where to begin, or what kind of output file I need to send to a fabricator. Any tips for approaches would be greatly appreciated. Thank you in advance.

author: Miti
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2020, 03:32:08 am
content: If I was to start now, I would take on KiCad. It is free. I started 20+ years ago with Eagle and I have a hard time moving away from it, even though I hate their new subscription model.The next would be Eagle, then probably Altium, if I had the money.

author: sokoloff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2020, 04:26:25 am
content: +1 on KiCAD!Watch one of Chris Gamell’s “Getting to Blinky” series on YouTube or this longer series of tutorial videos (which are excellent and broken into individual topics)https://youtu.be/9hcQQQxoRl0I did my first board on KiCAD in one evening with a daughterboard, 6 headers, 2 buttons, and an IR receiver after watching Chris’ videos the prior evening.

author: leonababy
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2020, 04:30:01 am
content: Thank you for the replies. I am a visual person, and I get hung up on details. I am having trouble understanding how the process would work, since this is new to me. I think this special case I want to start with - duplicating a board - is a complicating factor. Can artwork be imported, such as in the case of the board I need to duplicate (assuming I create an image for each side)? If so, could I add through holes where needed, or does one have to use parts from a library, or both are possible? The traces - could I somehow have the program turn the imported artwork into traces, or would I be restricted to connecting pads using the software, and it would route the pads according to some rule? Is it unrealistic to believe I can duplicate a board with such software? It almost sounds like a special case where printing artwork with registration marks to align the two sides would be done, and a manufacturer could possibly use these to create a board. But they would need information about hole sizes and such.It's quite a black box to me, and I haven't used CAD before other than some simple schematics. For laying out new boards, I assume that there is a library of parts, and one can select various sizes of DIPs, style and size of capacitors, etc - and I would place these as desired, and then later make connections with traces? you can see I am totally new to this - I know I am asking silly questions for those in the know. At the moment I feel like I am at the door of a secret society...I'll check out some videos...

author: sokoloff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2020, 04:48:52 am
content: You send Gerber files to the fab. These are a simple file format (but you don’t write the files by hand anyway, but instead have the tool generate them.)The typical process is: create the schematic (the electrical design), assign parts and footprints to each item, then layout the board (the physical side of things), then check it, then check it again, then export Gerber files, then import them to your PCB fab, then check the output again, then click buy and wait.Your board is low/medium complexity, so I’d go through the whole process rather than trying to shortcut anything. Treat it 75% learning and 25% getting the board.People here will help, doubly so if it’s obvious you’re trying to help yourself as well.

author: MarkF
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2020, 05:38:33 am
content: I useDipTrace.It is free for 2 layers and 300 pins (physical size does not matter).You can also get 500 pins with their free for Non-profit license just for the asking.I found it much more intuitive than KCAD or Eagle.I was able to layout a PCB in an afternoon sitting.

author: leonababy
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2020, 06:15:35 am
content: I watched the first 6 or 7 KiCad videos on DigiKey's channel, and it looks great. I think it is going to make sense for duplicating this board to start from scratch - or at least I can do it by starting from scratch. I appreciate the pointer to what looks like a good solution. I had asked about "output file", and I see a term that hasn't changed in many years that I am familiar with - Gerber file. I'll look at other comments tomorrow - but for now I feel pretty good. The tutorial is invaluable for learning how to get around with libraries and such.

author: Jeroen3
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2020, 06:49:35 am
content: There is an improved output file called ODB++ that is slowly moving into the world. It has more information that just bare plotter files.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ODB%2B%2BKicad does not have it yet. But assembly houses will prefer those files.

author: DaJMasta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2020, 07:21:06 am
content: KiCAD comes highly recommended, but I went with the free CircuitMaker and haven't regretted it. It has the limitation that most of your designs have to be public, and while it has most of the features of the full Altium Designer, some of them are obfuscated by a simplified UI. That said, I've found the package to be comprehensive with some annoyances (like user submitted footprints that don't match the part), but I've made a couple dozen designs and revisions and generally think well of it.There are certainly a ton of options out there, basic stuff will get you the files you need to mill, etc, or send to a fab on your own, but PCB specific packages will also get you supplied part footprints/pinouts, electrical checking based on your defined schematic, design and production rule checking, and much more. You can get really a staggering amount of capability for free, and actually fabbing a board is amazingly cheap.The basic flow is:Make your schematic from your chosen partsDefine the PCB shape/size/layer stackAlign components from the schematic physically on the PCBRoute tracesAdditional holes, design features, assembly constraints, adjustments, silkscreen information, etc.

author: Wimberleytech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2020, 10:12:28 pm
content: If this is a one-time event for you, it seems that any tool with a learning curve of any magnitude is problematic.The simplest tool to learn is the ExpressPCB layout editor. You have to send the layout to them for fab--it does not generate gerbers directly.The boards are not cheap as compared to the many Chinese solutions.However, the boards are quick (about a week) and of very high quality.I use the tool to do layouts which I print and fab in my garage from time to time. My one attempt at fabing my own double-sided board was not so great.I have on my bucket list a plan to learn kicad, so I am not averse to it or any of the other tools mentioned on this thread.Recently I had a case where I needed to duplicate an eval board. The datasheet had both sides drawn, so I just copied the geometries and verified the hole spacings for the components. Real last-century stuff, but it worked.

author: nigelwright7557
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2020, 10:59:50 pm
content: There are literally hundreds of PCBCAD packages out there now on websites or ebay.You can pay anything from zero pounds to thousands.Had a go with KICAD but didnt like it. As often happens with free software they let out latest versions that arent completely debugged and wait for feedback about bugs. I thought Microsoft just did that !

author: Wimberleytech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2020, 11:11:13 pm
content: Quote from: nigelwright7557 on February 05, 2020, 10:59:50 pmApple does it too

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2020, 12:24:10 am
content: You might also take a look atEasyEda. It's a "cloud-based" (runs in your browser) editor, that to a complete newbie like me seemed to have a much gentler learning curve than e.g KiCad. I also liked the fact that its coupled to lcsc.com (for parts) and jlcpcb.com (for board manufacturing); made it pretty painless for me to get my very first boards made. I do believe it is well suited for visually-oriented people, as an introduction to board design. You can just draw a PCB without a schematic, too.That said, I do not think it is an optimal tool by any means. All the boards are stored in the cloud (you do need to create an account at EasyEda, but it costs nothing), and you need internet connectivity to access the boards and the editor, and so on.I just think it is a good soft start for board editing; and for me, someone who was familiar with circuit diagrams but had never created their own board before, helped understand the underlying logic in e.g. KiCad, so I can move on to a proper tool if I ever need/want to.

author: DBecker
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2020, 01:23:38 am
content: There are many packages out there. Consider your options carefully.Old technology through-hole boards tend to be physically large. With the no-cost version of commercial packages you may run into the arbitrary limitation of what the free version will do, such the maximum size. And even if it allows that size today, there is a risk that they will change it in a future version.I've used several schematic capture and PCB layout programs in the past. The largest count and effort used Eagle. But their change to a subscription model was a eye-opening warning about the risk. I don't see how anyone can put their future ability to access their own designs at risk by relying on the continued availability from a fickle company. You need to keep paying to have access, while they could decide at any time to change their terms, their pricing tiers or even the availability of the program.Because of that I've switched entirely to Kicad. There was a challenging re-learning process, but once that pain was in the past I was happy I made the transition.

author: nigelwright7557
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2020, 01:31:57 am
content: Quote from: DBecker on February 06, 2020, 01:23:38 amKicad libraries aren't too bad for a free package.I did struggle adding new parts.The problem with new designs is sods law states the one component you want to use isnt in the library.When I wrote my own PCBCAD software I added a few components to the libraries as I went along but also added a "Component wizard" which greatly simplifies adding new library components. Input a few parameters and out pops a BGA etc. package.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 10, 2020, 05:51:53 am
content: If you dont want the kicad flow, cant get around with parts, libraries and footprints, You can carry on with the photoshop route and google toner transfer pcb diy method, or proto board routing with jumper wires...But kicad (and any other eda) looks tedious on first sight for oldtimers like me, diy artwork printing or jumper wires feel much straight forward at first. But when we got the feeling of doing that, you'll know how tedious they are, esp on multiple production boards.. and that experience should encourage us to learn eda in more depth anyway..

author: westfw
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 11, 2020, 06:27:38 am
content: QuoteWhen I had to duplicate a board where I only had pictures or other non-usable formats, I took the existing picture, scaled it as close to "life size" as possible, imported it in my PCB CAD program on some non-functional layer(s), and used that as a guide for routing new traces on the real layer. It helped a lot that I already had a nearly-correct schematic for the design, so there were air-wires to route. (OTOH, I think that using a CAD package today that does NOT connect a schematic to the PCB design is a terrible idea.) Then I got rid of the picture (or perhaps just never displayed or output that layer again.)I happened to be using EAGLE in that case (it was actually part of my "get better at EAGLE" project, back in 2008 or so), but I'm pretty sure most modern packages have similar capabilities. These days I probably would have chosen KICAD.)

author: rrinker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 11, 2020, 09:29:11 pm
content: I really tried to like KiCAD, I really wanted to like it a lot. I have experience with mechanical CAD, and did schematics in college with an ancient version (well, it was current at the time) old DOS OrCAD (schematic only, there was no PCB editor in the version we had). But then it was close to 30 years before I got back to doing anything with electronics, and the free versions of some programs were much too limited, and then I found out about KiCAD. But something about the way it works just didn't fit my style. Then I gave EasyEDA a try (It does run local as well as in the cloud, but file storage is in your cloud account). That one works for me. No doubt one of the rather expensive would also work for me, but as a hobbyist I can't justify buying something like that. I've done a couple of boards now with EasyEDA, sticking with JLCPCB to make the boards, and even set up a BOM to order the parts from LCSC. Maybe I could get parts cheaper by shopping around, but the whole thing works very well together and makes the process super easy.

author: sokoloff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 12, 2020, 02:05:13 am
content: I wonder how many people prefer whatever “second” EDA package they try.I tried Eagle and hated it. I later tried KiCAD and found it OK. If I tried things the other way, I might have preferred Eagle.

author: MarkF
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 12, 2020, 02:09:44 am
content: Quote from: rrinker on February 11, 2020, 09:29:11 pmI had a similar feeling of KiCAD.I found DipTrace more to my liking. No limits other than the number of pins and only 2 layers.You can get the FREE for Non-profit license just by asking that gives you 500 pins.For personal use, I have never exceeded the 500 pin limit.Creating your own components and footprints is equally easy.Another plus, NO online cloud crap. Everything is local.For PCBs, I have been usingElecrow.Mostly because they DO NOT plaster their ID number on you silk screen.My only PCB that exceeded the 300 pin limit used a 96 pin VME connector:

author: donotdespisethesnake
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 12, 2020, 11:53:26 am
content: I use KiCad, but for the specific purposes of re-engineering old PCBS, it is not ideal. In particular, you can't simply load a greyscale bitmap as a background in the PCB editor. The interactive router works much better if you have a net list.Apparently Sprint Layout works well for reversing PCBs, and is reasonably priced. For example you can load a bitmap, scale it, size it etc.

author: twospoons
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 13, 2020, 02:20:33 am
content: Quote from: nigelwright7557 on February 05, 2020, 10:59:50 pmAltium do this too, but they charge you a small fortune for the privilege of finding their bugs.I've used Pads and Altium, tried and hated Eagle.I'd say +1 to Kicad : free and no limits.

author: Nominal Animal
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 13, 2020, 02:42:17 am
content: Quote from: nigelwright7557 on February 05, 2020, 10:59:50 pmAs a free software developer myself, I assert that it is not actually that callous.It is just that the developers concentrate on the issues they themselves see (or their employer finds important); weneedthe feedback.It really is part of the open/free software ecosystem to test and report bugs; part of itscost, if you will, to the users. (Also, to provide translations and corrections, and often documentation especially of the tutorial and how-to form, because that stuff really is outside the developers ken.) Most of the developers, like I do, really REALLY appreciate detailed reports and suggestions, because it is stuff that makes the whole better, but that I myself/the developer would not have found out/thought up our/themselves.That said, it is really annoying to work with buggy tools, so I completely understand your complaint.

author: TERRA Operative
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 13, 2020, 12:43:33 pm
content: I use Diptrace and love it.I had the same experience with KiCAD as rrinker and MarkF, but Diptrace just clicked with me.I tried KiCAD a few times and was always fighting with the UI, it doesn't conform to standard conventions so you have to relearn all your computer mouse kung-fu when using it. A common problem with open-source software (Blender had a major overhaul a while back to fix this very issue).The drawing part of component design is a little lacking, but I make all my shapes in my CAD package of choice and import as DXF.I'm using the lowest tier of paid non-profit license and was more than happy to pay for it seeing as I use it so much.

author: TomS_
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 13, 2020, 01:09:39 pm
content: Quote from: Miti on February 05, 2020, 03:32:08 amYou don't need to have a subscription to open EAGLE and export gerber's of your old designs, regardless of the side of the PCB.So unless it's just a "time required to learn a new CAD package" thing, you could make a start on something like KiCAD for new designs going forward.But I personally also really like EAGLE, and know how to use it very well so also finding it hard to simply ditch and take up something else. I'm not a huge fan of the subscription model, but it does mean you always have access to the latest version of the software rather than the last of version family X.The latest pricing seems to be not toooooooo bad given that you get the premium edition. Not cheap, but if it's your bread and butter maybe it's worth it.

author: Renate
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 13, 2020, 02:26:07 pm
content: Quote from: TomS_ on February 13, 2020, 01:09:39 pmEagle is good enough for my usage. I use the last non-subscription 7.7.0 version.The thing I like about Eagle is that it is mostly (sort of*) XML.That means that I can generate/modify libraries, layouts, schematics.The KiCad gobbledeegook looks like alien G-code.Schematics seem (?) to use 0.1 inch as a standard.That means symbols and things use weird numbers in their files.I keep my own sources for libraries in a non-standard format.They are basically Eagle, but allow units:Code:<wire x1="-0.025in" y1="0.05in" x2="-0.025in" y2="-0.05in" width="12mil" layer="94"/>It's a lot easier on the eyes than looking at random numbers.They get ground/merged into a standard library format.* In Eagle 7.7.0 separate closing tags have to be on a fresh line:Code:<device name=""/> <!-- Bad --><device name=""></device> <!-- Bad --><device name=""> <!-- OK --></device>

author: nigelwright7557
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2020, 09:53:27 am
content: It can be a big change going from tape and film to PCBCAD software.I dont think I have come across pcb into PCBCAD converters.Its probably just as easy to start from scratch.1/ Create schematic.2/ Convert to rats nest pcb.3/ Layout pcb.4/ do loads of error checks.5/ Convert to gerber/excellon files.6/ Check gerber output for missed errors.7/ Send files to fab.My first venture into using PCBCAD software was with EasyPC in mid 1980's.Sort of worked ok but had loads of bugs back then.I was a software engineer by trade and thought I could do better so started writing my own.That was 35 years ago and still selling it now.It has matured over the years with loads of extra features and error checking.Done around 300 pcb's over the last few years with very few problems.Latest version is PCBCAD720 which is based on .net core 3.1