[SOLVED] esd mat - computer mouse doesnt work with certain mice - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: dreamcat4
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 05, 2021, 06:49:58 am
content: Hi there,The thing that really kills me over these ESD mats is they dont work with the newer optical sensors on modern mice. If you get something like a high performance gaming mouse these days they all use the same exact high resolution sensor in them. And it flat out doesnt work (at all).I have tried everything i can think of at this point, including tarnishing (dulling) the surface with chemicals, and testing samples of slightly different finish version. Including this 'snakeskin' slightly more textured type. Nothing works!Please help if you can do anything to help get the manufacturers involved for future products. I have also considered trying to apply some special spray or other coating. However that is itself also highly problematic because you don't want too thick a barrier that will then diminish the anti static capability and performance of the mat to dissipate charge. And also because any thinner style coating will probably very quickly get removed with the constant cleaning. Which i have to do very often spray down the mat with IPA to remove flux and other soldering crap.If this problem interests anybody else? Then please say something too! As cannot find anything too helpful online after so many months. At the end of my wit here.It feels like... so hard to find a solution. For such a deceptively simple problem. Do the manifacturers even care about this issue? Who actually makes these things anyway? And no i dont mean the suppliers / distributors. I mean the manufacturers behind them who actually make these things.The best i have come to understand is that during manufacturing, the rubber making part of the process where they roll the natural rubber at high pressure and mix it with synthetic plastic(s)... THAT is also the same critical time when they can also include other additives. To change the properties of the material. Once the rubber is made, the material being 'all rubbery' is very resistive to finishing by sanding, or for absorbing chemicals. So its really hard to change that surface layer. At least not without tearing up the rubber.But ideally what we would need is to embed some speckles or different colored and maybe reflective small particles into the rubber itself. Kindda like a glitter or a marbling effect. That optically the finer higher resolution mouse sensors can 'see'. So there is probably some optimum balance between the individual grain size being large enough to be detected and bounced back into the sensor. And the grains being small and dense enough to match or exceed the finer resolution capability of the mouse sensor. Otherwise you might wind up getting skipping / freezing. Maybe some level of jerkiness as you move the mouse across the table.I have also wondered if a vinyl sticker could work. Because (unlike a spray) you can clean a vinyl sticker without damaging it. However the problem with those is they are very likely to ruin the ESD capability of the mat. Unless there were to be a very special type of a vinyl sticker. That was also ESD dissipative.Please help if you can relay my message. And bring it to the attention of the manufacturers. Then it will help to improve these ESD mats and make them better, more useful for all of us!I suppose you could ask well what might motivate the manufacturer to do this and add an extra step? Well i guess it comes down to 2 things. Either wanting to differentiate your product and sell more than a competitor. Or B) having a broadly much more sellable product, that other types of non-EE customers can also buy them as durable high quality and easy to clean soft matts for computer desks, and gamers etc. Which is a much larger general market than the ESD purpose for electronics / manufacturing.Nobody talks about this issue. Do other people even care? Or am i really the only guy out there who feels quite so passionately about this topic?

author: AndyC_772
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 05, 2021, 07:16:06 am
content: Blue ESD mat + 3DConnexion Cadmouse Pro works just fine for me.

author: salbayeng
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 05, 2021, 07:36:46 am
content: I just use a sheet of paper under my optical mouse , replace it when it gets real gunky.Not sure why you have an ESD mat under your mouse in the first place.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 05, 2021, 08:31:42 am
content: Quote from: salbayeng on March 05, 2021, 07:36:46 amI've done that - but sometimes it might get caught and can crease. My solution is to use a piece of thin but solid cardboard. Works brilliantly.and...Quote

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 05, 2021, 08:37:58 pm
content: Quote from: dreamcat4 on March 05, 2021, 06:49:58 amA decent mousepad can be had for $2.I would never use an ESD mat for mouse surface as its too tacky anyway.

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 05, 2021, 09:33:34 pm
content: ESD mats are useless unless they have a path to ground to dissipate charge. The potential is between (USB) grounded mouse and yourself.Mine crashes every time I sit down, so I first discharge myself touching ground (metal power bar) with my foot. Just part of life in Canada winters.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 05, 2021, 09:48:23 pm
content: Doesn't anyone use a mouse pad anymore? I never did like the feel of using a mouse directly on the desk.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 05, 2021, 10:03:04 pm
content: It is pretty lame that the mouse doesn't work on that surface - Ancient Logitech MX310 here has no problem with the antistatic mat.I do like mouse pads and use them everywhere except on the antistatic surface in the lab... it seemed to me to carry a risk of defeating the antistatic concept?

author: dreamcat4
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 05, 2021, 10:22:08 pm
content: i see a lot of people claiming their life is just fine here. but not very much actual practical help. there are many many mice in this world. if the product was designed to work universally with all mouse. then it would work universally work regardless of which mouse you own. but this simply isnt the case.now theres a bunch of you saying just use a regular mousemat....it doesn't work once you have your breadboards out. And lab equipment out PSU, scope, soldering iron with soldering stand. hot air station, microscope etc. and wires strewn all over the whole table. including across the desk to plus the rs232 or programmer into the PC. its a rats nest. the whole desk.There is really no room left to have a seperate dedicated area for the mouse that isn't miles away from your actual electronics project. And i have a massive desk here. It simply doesnt work out that way. When you are constantly having to go back and forth between the circuit, all those electronics stuff, to open a bunch of open PDF datasheets on the PC. It requires very frequent reaching over for the mouse. And that becomes a significant productivity drain on productivity. Not fun.The way the desk clutter ends up is always with 'whatever dead space inbetween the mess of wires' is where the mouse gets crammed in and relegated to. Which is usually a tiny space nearby. So i use a high sensitivity hi resolution gaming mouse, that you can flick about without too much travel. Because upsetting wires or reaching over wires is no fun either. At least not when you have to do it constantly all the time. Get it? Understand what i regularly am facing and you would.now the suggestion of using a different mouse isnt entirely a bad one. except as i already stated, all these modern gaming mice that i want to use. they all use the same exact sensor. and its not like those office mice. and not, i dont want to give up my sensitive hi res gaming mouse for an inferior mouse. that would be taking a step backwards. for someone who has long term rsi you learn that less movement means getting tired less quickly. which again means fewer breaks and a higher level of productivity.if i was some patient slow old timer i wouldn't care. but i am not one of those people. and downright requiring a better product that works more reliably only means more ways to be more productive all the time. which is fundamentally good for everybody else.i can take apart this mouse. and double check that it uses the same common high performance sensor as all the other gaming mice. but failing that it's not user error in my opinion if so many other mice modern and popular on the market in fact use the same sensor.

author: dreamcat4
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 05, 2021, 11:05:50 pm
content: ok so looking at my mouse, it's a benq zowie fk2. And according to this list:https://on-winning.com/flawless-sensor-mouse-list-perfect/it has the following sensor in it:Avago ADNS-3310Looking at this same table there are a few more different sensor types. But from 2 main families. And no more than about 6 most common ones total.So if i were to get a different mouse in future, i should try to choose a mouse with a different sensor than the onw i currently own.However having said all that i'm still pretty doubtful it's gonna solve anything. The main reason being is that all those sensors are in fact pretty similar to each other. The technology has not seemed to change very much at all during these last few years.if you know you are using a mouse with any of these common sensor. then that would perhaps be helpful IDK. (But most likely you are not)

author: JohnnyMalaria
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 05, 2021, 11:09:28 pm
content: I don't get it.I have some cheap-o-shit Logitech wireless mouse. I can move the cursor complete around my screen by move the mouse by no more than an inch or so in any direction. i.e., my hand stays put.I think this is more poor mouse technique than vendors making crappy ESD mats.

author: dreamcat4
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 05, 2021, 11:14:44 pm
content: gaming mice have:* a different sensor* are lighter weight* respond more quicklythan some cheap-o mouse. i'm not going to use a heavier mouse with RSI, it tires more quickly* ESD mats aren't crappy* they fail the mouse test. because they are not designed specifically to work properly with mice. they have no grain in them for the sensor to reflect back* there are different types of ESD mat - none of them universally work well with all micehere is another article about these gaming mouse sensors. it turns out the 2 main vendors is just 1 vendor. just a different brand naming schemehttps://www.gaming-mice.com/flawless-mouse-sensors-guide/for those most common sensor types, there's even fewer than it would at first seem

author: JohnnyMalaria
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 05, 2021, 11:21:36 pm
content: Quote from: dreamcat4 on March 05, 2021, 11:14:44 pmThe weight claim is, frankly, bollocks.According to the specs, your mouse weights 81g.I just weighed mine (I have a lab scale) - 80.79g including battery.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 05, 2021, 11:22:15 pm
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on March 05, 2021, 10:03:04 pmWell I wouldn't lay out the ESD sensitive parts on top of the mouse pad, but I wouldn't think a mouse pad sitting on the antistatic mat would be a problem. You could spray some static dissipating stuff on it if you're worried.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 05, 2021, 11:24:48 pm
content: Quote from: JohnnyMalaria on March 05, 2021, 11:21:36 pmI've never looked at gaming mice, but I suspect it's one of those marketing labels that in itself doesn't really mean anything. Some "gaming mice" likely really are special in some way while others are not. It's also possible that originally they were noticeably better but now every cheap commodity mouse has the same features.I still remember when any kind of optical mouse that didn't require a special pad was considered a premium product while most still used mechanical rollers. Then at some point optical became cheaper and everyone started using it.

author: Ian.M
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 05, 2021, 11:52:48 pm
content: Consider using a trackball. Even my ancient Logitech TrackMan Wheel has pixel-perfect control with minimal effort when doing CAD/EDA, but can move fullscreen corner to corner with a single thumb flick. A decent gaming trackball should be even better with plenty of buttons for macros, the one thing mine lacks. Absolutely no arm, wrist or lateral hand movement is required so its great if you have physical limitations other than arthritis, tendonitis or other condition that directly involves your thumb. You also get back 3/4 the desk area required to be kept clear for a mouse!

author: dreamcat4
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2021, 12:22:57 am
content: i'm not here to argue minuatae against people who fundamentally dont get it. if you dont get it then you dont get it and theres no real reason to be here making arguments like that because it achieves nothing worthwhile.* just because your specific mouse in front of you weighs 80g doesnt mean that is the average weight of most other non gaming mice is also only 80g* my mice weights '80g as heavy as it is' because its an older model* newer gaming mice weigh more like 60g. that is not 'dressing it up'. quite a few different models weigh about that now* none of that has helped anybody in this conversation* your bickering about weight etc. does in no way invalidate any of my other pointsto make it easier to understand, i cannot. other that repeat myself yet again. which i dont want to do because that isn't actually a helpful way of achieving anything worthwhile. if you didnt bother to read you didnt bother to read. then thats all on you.theres basically been only ever 3 common types of opinion here1) use a mouse mat --> it doesnt work for me. when the desk has wires all across it. then moving the mouse mat inbetween the wires etc. whe you have to relocate the mouse. it just does not work. i already explained all that2) use a regular mouse --> it does not work for me. i have rsi. i need to use a specific device. if you want to make arguments telling somebody else to use a different ergonomic device because you dont listen. then that isn't actually going to help anybody here either. however if you want to do something helpful like report your model and brand of mouse. then that *might be helpful*. if enough other people also want to participate in the same activity3) the third response is to suggest a trackpad, or rollerball etc. well those are not as fast / accurate / productive. its a well meaning suggestion. but its also a decrease in productivity that i dont feel like accepting when my current 88g mouse can run circles around them. speaking as someone who has used both a good trackball and good touchpad before. i also have a logitech mx570 trackball this whole time on my desk here. but with no real bias against it i just end ip going for the mouse every time these daysso there you have it. basically everybody skirted around the mat side of things. because they must be perfect right? well no they arent and that's entirely my point of even being here in the first place. i have tried solving the problem on my own. and made a decent enough overview of the other things that were already tried.there was eventually 'a little progress' when maybe the cat scratched it with its claw. now a small place on my mat where the mouse can even moves at all. well it jerks 3-4 times. when it goes over a claw mark. point proven. but the rubber surface itself was ruined by that. all ripped up. you couldn't treat really the whole mat that way. not without it becoming a totally uncleanable grime magnet

author: JohnnyMalaria
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2021, 12:28:53 am
content: NOTE: This message has been deleted by the forum moderator Halcyon for being against the forum rules and/or at the discretion of the moderator as being in the best interests of the forum community and the nature of the thread.If you believe this to be in error, please contact the moderator involved.An optional additional explanation is: Pointless post

author: Ian.M
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2021, 12:43:28 am
content: So get a square of spare ESD mat, trim the corners nicely, lightly sand the surface in two different directions and wipe off the surface with thinners so the paint will stick, then lightly mist it with black spray paint from a significant height to get sufficient speckle for the mouse sensor to see, then use it as a mouse mat. As it separate from the bench mat, the speckle doesn't have to survive regular cleaning.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2021, 12:47:55 am
content: Well, there are really only two options - get a different mouse (maybe an older one, from the days when our ancestors knew how to make optical mouses that worked on most surfaces), or do something clever with the surface itself - like a toner transfer of a grid pattern onto a portion of the mat, to give it a built in target for the useless-sounding optical sensor in the one you have?I would probably throw an annoying mouse like that in the bin and get one made by adults.

author: gnif
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 06, 2021, 12:59:42 am
content: QuoteI also suffer from RSI and have to select a mouse that is both comfortable but also will last... "gaming mice" are laughable, they are marginally better than the standard office mouse but they are still built to an extremely cheap standard and the industry is making a killing out of them because for some reason people are selecting "gaming" mice over "professional" mice these days thinking they are the same/better.After years of looking for a standard mouse that is of a high build quality, has a mouse wheel AND a separate middle button (I use this a ton), is not too heavy and fits my larger hand well, I found this:https://3dconnexion.com/au/cadmouse/They are NOT cheap but when you want something made well, it never is. They are designed for graphic artists that need a reliable professionally made high-quality mouse that will spend 80+ hours a week using it. I have owned mine now for 3 years and not only has it lasted, it's hands down the best mouse I have ever used both for my RSI and for it's feel & build quality.

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2021, 01:07:33 am
content: Quote from: dreamcat4 on March 06, 2021, 12:22:57 amFirst doesn't really make sense, if there is not room for a mousepad then there isn't really enough room to properly move a mouse around either. If you are concerned about RSI the mouse should be in a specific location, not shifted around, preventing your arm from being at odd angles or having to reach.Second point, basically any optical mouse will aggravate RSI. If you want low strain go with a ball mouse. The ball solves both issues as it does not need to track the surface of the mat, can be easily relocated around, and needs no clearances when operating it.

author: dreamcat4
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2021, 01:14:50 am
content: ok now we are actually getting somewhere! thanks so much for these suggestions both of you.i have here 2-3 small samples about 150mm square. sent to me by a distributor. so there is some limited number of attempts to try out different things out them. before they get too damaged by the previous attempts.maybe i can try what you suggest of toner transfer. and make some clear transfer sticker / ink transfer a grid pattern. except i have an inkjet not a laser printer. not sure if that matters i guess you would use a clothes iron or something to transfer the ink over. and peel off the sheet. something like thathowever an early sign is i already have tried to make an visually optically different color (blue) marks. with a regular permanent marker pen. and that did work in the sense the marks cannot be cleaned off. great. however it did not work to actually register the mouse at all. not even a little bit. so maybe its like the mouse sensor only distinguishes surface textures, IDK. then it would not see any different inks or colors or anything on the smooth surface. what was not raised up by the depositing of the ink.so the idea of speckled painting from a height could be more promising in terms of surface texture. however then necessary to then apply a sealant layer over the entire surface. to protect the regular paint speckles from being rubbed off. and a sealant layer must feel through the texture. otherwise its gonna be smooth again, then sensor cannot 'see' it under the sealant layer. plus the other issues around cleaning the sealant layer off, or not being ESD dissipative surface anymore.but i shall try applying some wider variety of inks. and then just wiping them off. to see if the remaining residue of ink pattern can be 'seen'. instead of a grid i shall just try finding a fine grid mesh to use as a stencil. because it hadnt occured to me before to try doing it that way. and then i can try multiple different mesh sizes. see if that makes any differenceotherwise in terms of physically ripping up the rubber surface to create a texture. well it doesnt really work. because rubber resists ripping so well. but maybe if there was some finer type cutting tool with a roller. it might just be possible. however although i can picture such a tool in my head. i dont really know what to call it. or even think it really exists. something a bit like a razor i guess. that you pull along the surface. maybe like some type of a craft pattern making tool? would be the nearest thing i guessthanks again for these suggestions. it is deceptively harder than expected though! this rubbery surface. perfaps hard to believe. but those are also the unique qualities of rubber. that also makes it such a useful and durable / hard wearing material

author: BrokenYugo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2021, 01:16:37 am
content: Sounds like what you really need is a track point keyboard.

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2021, 01:19:26 am
content: Quotei'd second that emotion.Been using a microsoft intillimouse track ball for more years than i care to remember and couldnt go back to a mouse.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2021, 01:28:56 am
content: Another option is to have the mouse + pad on a "keyboard" tray that pulls out from under the desk...

author: gnif
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 06, 2021, 01:32:48 am
content: Quote from: BrokenYugo on March 06, 2021, 01:16:37 amas much as I love these things, I find they aggravate my RSI.

author: dreamcat4
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2021, 01:42:07 am
content: please refer back to the thread title if you don't understand the point of this thread. it is MY PROBLEM with ESD MATS.its not YOUR problem with MY mouse, and yes i really dont feel like elaborating any further at this point. i have listened carefully to everybody here. shame it overwhelmingly didnt work the other way around. all except for 2 of themcontinue, carry on. talk amongst yourselves i guess. i do thank those 2 people though.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2021, 02:44:46 am
content: Quote from: gnif on March 06, 2021, 12:59:42 amInteresting.Have you ever tried a trackman ?I've use a basic one very similar to the logitech mx570 trackball mentioned earlier however it's without any additional buttons yet you can assign the scroll wheel press to any shortcut you like for which I use Alt+Left arrow that makes browsing effort far less tiring.Haven't used a traditional mouse for decades after going to a trackman to alleviate wrist stresses from traditional mice.

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 06, 2021, 03:23:19 am
content: I find my bit of cardboard works really well. It is much larger than necessary for mousing and occupies a space generally to the right of centre (I'm a righty). Electronics, tools, breadboards, etc. all get scattered across the bench and some stray onto the cardboard (sometimes almost obliterating it). I just wiggle a little room with the mouse to do what I need.It's cheap and easy to try.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2021, 06:58:01 am
content: Quote from: dreamcat4 on March 06, 2021, 01:42:07 amEvery once in a while someone like you shows up and gets their knickers in a twist after the thread wanders off topic. What's your problem? People offered you suggestions, the rest of us are conversing, you are free to ignore the replies that you don't think are helpful, but as long as you're not paying us to be your personal tech support you don't get to dictate what people discuss.We're not really sure what you expect. Your mouse doesn't work on the mat, ok, so? What do you want us to do about it? We offered suggestions, use a mouse pad, or use a different mouse, these are things that have worked for us in a similar situation, I have an ESD mat on my desk and I use a mouse pad with a wrist rest, works fine, I don't really grasp what the issue is. Nobody here designed your mouse, nobody here can alter the way it works. It is what it is, we have offered various suggestions, if you don't like any of them, that isn't our fault.

author: Kean
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 06, 2021, 06:52:31 pm
content: I'm not sure if you are against a mouse mat because of the thickness it adds, or because of the fact it covers part of the ESD mat.To address the first issue you could look at one of the very thin mouse mats with repositionable adhesive. 3M make one (3M Precise Mouse Pad MP200PS), as do several other companies. I think I even got some free ones as marketing fluff from Wurth Elektronik at one point.I doubt that your hand rubbing on a mouse mat is going to generate much ESD, but if so just make sure your wrist or other hand comes into regular contact with the ESD mat, or wear a wrist strap when working on extra sensitive parts.

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2021, 07:22:28 pm
content: People don't understand how an ESD mat works. It's one plate of a capacitor and you are the other plate. The ultimate ESD mat is an aluminium plate, grounded of course. You can put any mouse pad on top of that. There's cookie sheets, pans, sheet metal etc. Plopping down an ungrounded ESD mat is just silly, it does nothing but act as a placebo.My USB mouse is cheap and junky single-sided PCB inside so it will always be hypersensitive and crash due to ESD and strong E-fields.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2021, 07:28:59 pm
content: Quote from: floobydust on March 06, 2021, 07:22:28 pmObviously the ESD mat should be grounded, but I'm not so sure that it's completely useless just floating. As long as you are touching it then your body and the surface that all of your parts are sitting on are all at the same potential so it should not be possible for a discharge to occur. The main issue I can think of is something like a grounded soldering iron will be at earth potential so if your ESD mat is at some other potential then this would obviously be an issue. So yeah, ground it obviously, but a floating conductive surface is probably marginally better than an insulating surface that builds up patches of static charge.

author: Kean
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 06, 2021, 07:35:51 pm
content: Quote from: floobydust on March 06, 2021, 07:22:28 pmExcept the point of the ESD mat is to safely dissipate any charge in that capacitor.So by my understanding a grounded metal sheet is actually not ideal at all, in addition to the fact it provides a path for electric shocks and shorting out your circuits.And as mentioned by james_s, even a floating ESD mat will reduce any static build up every time you contact it, by coming to the same potential as your body.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2021, 08:04:47 pm
content: Is the resistance of the ESD mat a feature, not a bug (in that it limits the rate of discharge)?

author: Kean
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 06, 2021, 08:20:07 pm
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on March 06, 2021, 08:04:47 pmYes!The mat grounding leads also have a resistor in them, just like wrist straps. Typically it is 1M ohm.Some good discussion here:https://www.circuitnet.com/experts/87211.html

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2021, 10:36:46 pm
content: As a physics class problem, take a parallel plate capacitor - you are one plate, nearby earth-grounded object as the second plate. A third (ungrounded ESD mat) plate in the middle does nothing. The electric field does get distributed instead of a point source i.e. approaching finger, and the mat can dissipate a tiny bit due to the desk's resistance.With a mouse pad, the grounded (USB) mouse is in the middle of the sandwich.ESD workbenches the 1MEG resistor to GND is for safety to prevent shock/short-circuits working with powered up circuit boards. It's typically a 1MEG 1/4W through-hole part that arcs over when hit with many kV. So the mat is dissipative only until the resistor breaks down.Most ESD mats are two or more layers, bottom highly conductive with less conductive top layer, so they are hi-Z. You can check with an ohmmeter is how they are made.

author: Ian.M
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2021, 11:21:55 pm
content: Yep, which is why I suggested making an ESD-safe mousemat*by speckling ESD mat with black spray paint. Its also worth noting that most black spray paints are loaded with enough carbon black pigment to be at least slightly dissipative.Quote from: dreamcat4 on March 06, 2021, 01:14:50 am*NO* absolutely *do* *not* apply clear-coat as that would make the mat non-ESD-safe. By providing a thin dielectric layer it would permit greater charge storage and would probably be significantly worse than an ordinary non-ESD-safe mouse-mat as the thickness and foam backing would vastly reduce the surface capacitance per unit area.If the speckles get too worn for the mouse sensor to see reliably, simply scrub it with thinners and re-do the spray painted speckles.* That's ESD-safe when used on a properly grounded ESD mat or other grounded surface. As Floobydust points out, an ungrounded piece of ESD mat will be minimally effective.

author: helius
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2021, 06:13:58 am
content: Quote from: floobydust on March 06, 2021, 10:36:46 pmAn ohmmeter will not give a reproducible reading. The (ANSI standard) method for testing dissipative surfaces is to use two metal 5-pound weighted electrodes, and apply a test voltage of 100 V between them.

author: mrburnzie
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2021, 07:27:55 am
content: Get a basic square mouse pad and cut out a section in the mat 😂😂😂(Joking btw.)

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2021, 09:04:00 am
content: While I use a nice chunk of black granite counter top, which was free, and already had a nice bevel on the one side, and a good surface polish. I also have used a sheet of white cardboard with good results, simply replacing the cardboard every week with a new one, or less frequently if it did not wear too much. Have also used the front and rear covers off of the phone book, when you still got them, though the SAPO one now is so thin you just use the whole book. I use an old Baccarat table with a drawer, so the keyboard is on the one side, and the mouse block is on the left side, so my wrist has the wooden front to support it. Mouse handles well there, though keyboard itself is too big to fit the drawer, so is on top supported on the edges.mouse is an old Intellimouse 5 button, though only the 2 are really used and the scroll wheel, and the keyboard is an equally old Microsoft Interney keyboard pro, nice because it has a 2 port USB hub built into it, so there is only a single cable to connect keyboard and mouse. Some of Microsoft's better hardware, still working after 2 decades, but I have spares of them, and a lot of Intellimice in all shades of beige and black, as you pick them up really cheap, and they are good units, if somewhat dated, but not needing batteries perfect for me, as you cannot lose them.

author: Kean
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 07, 2021, 12:35:05 pm
content: Licron Crystal ESD spray might be an option if you want to be sure about maintaining ESD dissipation while applying a different surface finish to a section of your mat.It is pretty expensive though, and sometimes only available in bulk quantities.https://www.techspray.com/esd-products

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2021, 12:43:46 pm
content: I got one of these. It works very well.https://www.officesupply.com/technology/computer-accessories/mouse-pads-wrist-rests/mouse-pads/precise-mouse-nonskid-repositionable-adhesive-back-gray-bitmap/p52712.html

author: Kean
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 07, 2021, 01:27:26 pm
content: Quote from: rsjsouza on March 07, 2021, 12:43:46 pmYes, that is the one I suggested above. They are very nice. I'm not a fan of the thick rubber mouse mats.The one from Wurth is actually more like a thin microfibre cloth mat with some rubberised backing. Can be used as a mouse mat or a cleaning cloth

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2021, 01:49:31 pm
content: Quote from: Kean on March 07, 2021, 01:27:26 pmOh, I hadn't noticed. Many years ago I got a box with ten of them and the ones I used lasted a long time. I have no idea where I put the remainder ones, thus I had to buy one again this yearOver the years I had also the ones that were covered in a thin nylon mesh on top of a thick flexible rubber base, but it's been a while since I saw one of them.

author: Ian.M
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2021, 03:38:50 pm
content: Neoprene backed cloth surfaced mousepads are (or rather used to be) made from cheap neoprene foam wetsuit fabric. (More expensive wetsuits use a fabric/neoprene/fabric sandwich so you don't have to use talc to get them on and off!) I suspect that back in the 80's a wetsuit manufacturer came up with a lucrative market for their offcuts!Anyway, 'classic' fabric on Neoprene mouse mats are still readily available. e.g:https://www.amazon.com/Belkin-Standard-Computer-Neoprene-F8E089-BLK/dp/B00006HTZ0The better quality ones buy factory pre-bonded fabric on neoprene foam to cut the mats from. Cheap and nasty ones stick it on when they make the mat and invariably peel at the corners.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2021, 05:01:51 pm
content: Quote from: Ian.M on March 07, 2021, 03:38:50 pmThe good ones are almost indestructible, I have some here with more than a million mouse miles on them that still look good!

author: dreamcat4
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2021, 06:22:56 pm
content: Quote from: floobydust on March 06, 2021, 10:36:46 pmthanks for mentioning this floobydust, this is really important point. and often overlooked. guess it means we should all regularly schedule testing of the 1 meg resistor. every few months. so see that it still works.thing is, it might fail anytime between testing. then there is probably going to be a period of several weeks. when the esd mat has stopped being grounded anymore.wonder if there is any opportunity to improve on that. given the high voltages involvedyou see not all off topic comments are entirely useless here. just the many repetition of the same exact point and giving no new angles to the discussion. 'just use a mouse mat" pfft. what a waste of time. like i hadnt already been doing that.mouse mats are:* way too small to let you just plonk down the mouse anywhere you like* as a person with rsi. i frequently need to switch hands, this then means repositioning the mouse mat toowell ok where is the mouse mat? its under a layer of delicate wires that are connected to things, like the circuit i am monitoringso... already upgraded to a desk mat. which then brings its own new set of problems.currently half my desk is the desk mat. the other half is esd mat. great right? well no...not great. because can no longer just plonk things down wherever i feel like it. half the desk is wasted for specific computer duty and i can no longer change hands. and then mouse if further away when working on electronics. too far to just reach over quickly. it does not improve productivity, just changes the set of obstacles to the most frequent repeated tasks.and the cloth mat is much harder to keep clean. usually requiring removal and washing with soapy water. and hanging up, for drying. which is time when it cannot be used. compared to the esd mat side. which can just be quickly sprayed down easily and regularly with ipa spray botle. a real necessity when soldering with sticky flux etc.so all these energy wasted with such arguments - its pointless. i already knew all that. how can anybody here really think i never considered those obvious solutions?they dont hold a candle to just using 1 massive esd mat for everything. and having that replace the mouse mat. use a different mouse then? well maybe. but the whole point of this thread was to improve the design of ESD mats themselves. so that they can work well with all mice no exceptions. and that is a worthwhile feature to add to ESD mats.now you can argue that *you* dont need those features until you are blue in the face. but it doesnt improve the wider scheme of things or improve the quality and variety of the pool of professional products that we all have shared access to in the marketplace.single ESD mat for everything just makes work more productive. which is key to... being more productive! it just makes total sense.none of the solutions i previously rejected here, other than actually changing my specific mouse for another specific mouse, that works. would have actually achieved that desired outcome. but mice are problematic, because they need to be of a specific shape for ergonomic reasons. to match the specific user. so 'no' i cannot just switch to 'mouse Y' simple because that model worked for *you*. i can only choose from a smaller pool of mouse H,I,J & K. that are closer in shape to my current mouse. and guess what? they are all gaming mice. mostly with 1 of 3 gaming mouse sensor. all made by the same company as my current mouse sensor. so whilst i can certainly buy some specific new mouse from that shortlist. theres no guarantee it will work here.if you still dont understand or have an issue with me then just go back and read my previous posts. because its all in there. i left nothing out.

author: dreamcat4
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2021, 06:48:31 pm
content: how can i make a better case for my position here?well i suppose you have to see in light of the fact that my mouse does not work actually is a opportunity. it is a positive thing. because it offers the chance to try out ideas to see what can be done with this surface to make it work better.and that is really my point, to find out and give a better and clearer feedback. back to the manufacturer. so they can make an easier research / further product testing. and then it is going to be easier for them to try to improve the product.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2021, 06:51:25 pm
content: They're probably not going to care, you're one person with a very very niche complaint, nobody else here seems to have the problems you're having, we've all found solutions that work for us. You soundly reject all of those solutions but that does not change the fact that one or more of them seems to work for everyone else. Total non-issue IMO but nothing is stopping you from contacting ESD mat manufactures, just don't get your hopes up.

author: dreamcat4
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 12, 2021, 02:19:09 pm
content: have realized that it's an IR sensor. so the sensor shining down onto the ESD mat is either being blinded by fully reflected IR. or it is being 100% blocked. and nothing returned, not reflecting back enough IR signal. to overcome whatever the background noise level threshold for the sensor input.being next to IR in the spectrum, just tried a red permanent OHP marker (its an 'edding 143b'). which 'kindda works'. at least somewhat. the movement isn't completely clean. previously i had tried a blue permanent marker. which did nothing at all.so maybe either a special "IR reflecting" or "IR blocking" ink will work better than the red marker. it depends how much color staining the mat will hold and remain on the mat. after successive cleaning.the sensor on this mouse does not seem to emit anything in visible wavelength. that we can see.so what remains is finding a good ink. and also determining the best 'staining' or 'dying' method. for example if needing to make a certain spaced fine pitch of gridlines.or alternatively if a simple uniform flat stain is going to work smoothly. so far the flat stain test was 'fine but also jerky'. interestingly when i painted on the red marker pen. the covered area was no uniformly distributed. it has stripes of slightly different intensity. as the ink is pushed about from the pen strokes. like brush strokes. some patches are darker. other stripes are more transparent. so that might also play into it. will have to do further tests.online i found a few links to "IR inks". These might not be necessary, if a regular red ink already works well enough. but for completeness and future reference what turned up:https://www.phosphorescentpaint.co.uk/66-infrared-inkhttp://www.smarol.com/Infrared-Transparent-Ink.htmlhttps://www.printcolor.ch/en/ir-blocking-inks.htmlhttps://adamgatescompany.com/infrared-absorbers-a-versatile-additive-for-the-printing-industry/https://maxmax.com/phosphorsdyesandinks/infrared-phosphors-dyes-and-inks/infrared-down-conversion-powder/ir-ink-down-conversionhttps://www.epolin.com/spectre-340-infrared-absorbing-inkhttps://www.alibaba.com/showroom/infrared-absorb-ink.htmlhttps://www.freepatentsonline.com/8080307.htmlpotentially, it could be possible for a manufacturer to incorporate some additive, like one of those inks into the rubber rolling stage of the process. however it's not clear whether a uniform layer actually works. or instead need grid lines.for that i already speculated that placing over the mat a fine metal wire mesh. like a stencil. is most easy way. to lay down a uniform dot grid pattern. with not much fuss / effort. just depending how fine the mesh size is.also not so sure yet which basic ink or paint category will dye stain into the rubber surface the best. water based, or oil based, or a 'how water dye' something else. it's really not the type of a material that normally gets painted

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 12, 2021, 09:44:47 pm
content: Another out of the box idea: the sensor may be sensitive to visible light, if you add e.g. a red LED to the setup it might work better?Maybe the sensor has an IR filter that can be removed, to aid the conversion to visible light?That way you don't have to mess up the nice blue mat...

author: dreamcat4
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 13, 2021, 06:19:27 pm
content: 'tide marks' i should have said. About m descritption of the wavy lines left by the red OHP marker. That's what they were.Heh thanks for the suggestion here SilverSolder... actually i did not wish to open up this mouse because it seems to be difficult to get into. Only clips. And could wind up breaking those plastic clips.Just to be clear: my esd matt happens to be color green, and i have small sample of beige. No blue color esd mats here. Although it really should not matter maybe? But I was actually referring to my earlier test with a blue marker pen earlier, that didn't work. So i would not know if a blue ESD mat is any better. Although they are light sky blue. This pen was a dark navy blue. Anyhow we don't usually ever see how inks behave in the non-visible range of the IR spectrum. Because we cannot see it!But regardless of that, i found a rudimentary 'data sheet' for my exact mouse sensor now. And in that PDF it did say the led is... an HSDL - 4261. So i found that data sheet too.Heres a link to those datasheets:https://www.dropbox.com/sh/tvr0m8ewv6of4vi/AAAhkQFJTSNnPEE5Y1VpJZuaa?dl=0Crucially it says that the IR wavelength of the LED is 870nm. In fact it glows very dimly red.This is useful information!* Can now look into which wavelengths other mice use too. And compare them. Including for a newer sensor inside of a new mouse, before even purchasing it.* Can also use the wavelength to look for IR inks to stain the matts with. And find matching wavelength ink. Although for 'red textile dyes' they never say about that. Just different shades / intensities of 'red'And just like you say:* Another possible test is to try and replace with a different wavelength LED.* Sensible thing would be to 1st find the wavelength from other 'known good' mouse models. That other people here claimed works for them* However it might not work with this specific sensorDefinately worth investigating... At least before buying $80 brand new mouse. Just to even compare the specs at least.

author: dreamcat4
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 18, 2021, 10:20:13 am
content: OK so according to further research, it seems that most reputable anti static mats are made by either DESCO or SCS. However SCS used to be 3M Static Control, and was sold to DESCO in 2015So really there is only 1 big major ESD mat manufacturer out there anymore now. (For bench top mats that is, didn't need to look into the floor mats). This is going by the listings in Digikey.This is actually creating another different problem for me... because in other respects, it was only SCS who ever made beige (wood-matching color) bench mats. Which are now discontinued. No longer produced anymore. Probably due to lack of demand or whatever. LMAOSo at least now we know who is making these things. Whether it be for the color choice, the mouse thing or whatever other possible features / reasons to ask and give a feedback to improve the product options. It's like... they seem to make MANY different mats in fact over several lines. Yet most of them looks so similar to each other, without seeing in person.Well anyhow hope this information was useful to someone else down the road

author: ucanel
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 18, 2021, 10:52:30 am
content: Paint esd mat with board marker.

author: Yansi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 18, 2021, 11:02:07 am
content: Quote from: dreamcat4 on March 05, 2021, 10:22:08 pmThe simple help you need is simply to stop using half-working overpriced woo woo gamer mice. Then you'll be fine.Can't blame ESD mat for an inferior optical sensor. I have never encountered a mouse that would not work on an ESD mat. And I almost always use the cheap mice. So how come an overpriced gamer mouse does not work there? Is it a fault of the ESD mat? I don't think so. Is the woo woo mouse based on some different technology? Or why does not it work?I think I have somewhere an old Genius mouse with broken wheel assembly, that also has invisible wavelength sensor. I will try to find it and test it

author: dreamcat4
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 18, 2021, 11:10:11 am
content: Knew that was going to happen again

author: Yansi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 18, 2021, 11:25:32 am
content: No offense, someone needed to put that question upI am really interested to see if my old Genius mouse will work. I think it claimed to have some "laser" woo woo. And it did not light in red, as most mice do.

author: dreamcat4
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 18, 2021, 11:35:03 am
content: My main refusal to change mice has been (until now) because there wasnt a decent wireless (cordless) that was any better than my current mouse. But that changed recently after a different company came out with a newer gamine mouse. And maybe a 2nd wireless option from a 3rd company later on too.So my (old but also new) plan is to get the new mouse first:* Which is half the weight of my current gaming mouse (for RSI condition)* Which is wireless (can put anywhere between wires)* It probably (very likely) also uses a different version optical sensor than my current mouseSo after getting new GAMING mouse. trollol. triggered much eh? then will see if there is any differnce.But the other reason could be theres more different types ESD mats than previously believed. Like the main materials / surface is quite similar between them. But I could eventually also find one variation which is typically better than others.The mat side suffers of: Sample size of 1 syndromeor 3 samples, i have total, yet theres maybe? at least 12+ lines or different surfaces? IDKwe shall see. no hurry about it really. since they already discontinued the beige ones now.you can continue to post here your reorts about 'which mouse works' for sure.although nobody really knows which specific mats they are using. which isn't user fault or anything, just how they are being sold typically

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 18, 2021, 12:02:31 pm
content: Quote from: dreamcat4 on March 05, 2021, 06:49:58 amHmmm ... mine works just fine on that mat in the picture. The computer is across the room. No problems at all.(optical Logitech wireless mouse)

author: dreamcat4
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 18, 2021, 12:07:53 pm
content: well tell us the model number then? and we can look up the sensor in it

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 18, 2021, 12:14:07 pm
content: Quote from: dreamcat4 on May 18, 2021, 12:07:53 pmLogitech M185. I also just tried another one - Logitech M317c. All very common cheap mices, mouses, meeces, ...

author: dreamcat4
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 04, 2021, 01:46:05 pm
content: ok! just got the logitech g305 and it seems to be working fine. with casual usage and no looking any closer with whatever more stringent testing. great! and not just working on my main esd mat, but also for 2 other sample pieces. which had been sent to me earlier for slightly a different esd mat. this is great!very happy about this, especially since g305 can be modified, with different shape of casing shell. be made lighter and with rechargeable li-ion battery etc.furthermore. am expecting to get another different gaming mouse too. during next 2 months. and it will have a different sensor. so will test that tooso the zowie fk2 looks to be out of the picture now. and maybe will be able to finally buy some new ESD mats. awesome!