Some interesting statistics about EE's in Australia - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: VK3DRB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2015, 11:13:12 am
content: Source:http://joboutlook.gov.au/occupation.aspx?search=alpha&tab=overview&cluster=&code=2334From these statistics, with some comments in blue...There are 7,700 electronic engineers in Australia, out of a workforce of 11.75 million. Therefore only 1 in 1,526 workers are electronic engineers, or 1 in 3,000 of the entire population.It is just our country does not care much about electronic engineers. Most people would not even know an electronic engineer, let alone what an electronic engineers does for a living. But most of them know about Justin Beiber and barge-arse KimOnly 3.2 % of full time electronic engineers are females.Why?The average full time male electronic engineer works 43 hours per week, the females only 39.4.Electronic engineers earn roughly 142% of the average of all occupations.Which is pretty good, because the average is quite a bit higher than the modeElectronic engineers have poor social interest (28%) but strong investigative interest (100%).Nerds, dorks, geeks, dags, sociopaths or potential serial killersO0Electronic engineering is experiencing strong growth.Yeah?!PS: I am an electronic engineer and I don't wish to offend anyone by calling them a nerds etc. The reality is many of us are chick magnets.Despite these statistic, being an electronic engineer, or more accurately, being in the electronics industry, is about as good as it getsHow do these statistics compare with your experience?

author: DrGeoff
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2015, 11:20:56 am
content: Quote from: VK3DRB on October 09, 2015, 11:13:12 amSpot on I'd say.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 09, 2015, 11:34:24 am
content: The problem with stats like this is that so many EE's for whatever reason don't call themselves "electronics engineers". It could be "electrical engineer" or a myriad of other names.

author: dr.diesel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2015, 11:38:35 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on October 09, 2015, 11:34:24 amHere in the states, Electrical Engineer is the universal term used for component/board/ level design, not Electonics. A standard here would be nice.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 09, 2015, 11:48:59 am
content: Quote from: dr.diesel on October 09, 2015, 11:38:35 amThe stats in this case come from the Oz bureau of statistics, and the data would come from everyone yearly tax returns where you have to select your occupation from a list.https://www.ato.gov.au/uploadedFiles/Content/TPALS/downloads/TP00350460NAT19322013.pdfThe list includes:Quote

author: DrGeoff
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2015, 11:52:42 am
content: Since there isn't a standard for selecting the occupation, don't you just love to select a different one each year ?

author: Muttley Snickers
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 09, 2015, 12:17:44 pm
content: I didn't even know it was a job........Nothing against these particular statistics but in general they have a tendency to make me cringe, 98% of Australians believe it will remove 99.9% of stains and kill 98.7654321% of germs, FFS give me a break.Did they conduct a study on electronics engineers ? and if there are so few about then I would surely expect that the majority of them are here on this fine forum as either members or guests, lets ask them shall we, put your hand up if you were involved in anyway with this particular statistical survey.CompletelyReservedAnonymousPoster

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2015, 01:36:28 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on October 09, 2015, 11:48:59 amDo you Australians have to report social interests on your tax returns?

author: SteveLy
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2015, 02:32:57 pm
content: Quote from: VK3DRB on October 09, 2015, 11:13:12 amPut things in context. There are a shit tonne more than 1500 occupations out there, so 1 in 1500 employed being EEs is not bad at all! It is a highly specialised/skilled profession after all. "Don't like it? Go back to Russia."btw. "Electronic" engineer? Wouldn't that bit some kind of robot?

author: Galenbo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2015, 08:19:22 pm
content: Quote from: VK3DRB on October 09, 2015, 11:13:12 amA simple honest answer would cause this thread to have suddenly +60 pages.Quote from: VK3DRB on October 09, 2015, 11:13:12 amRising the number will lower the wage.Quote from: dr.diesel on October 09, 2015, 11:38:35 amIn our area, even the term "Electrical Designer" is used.People think we're into choosing the chape and color of ceiling lamps.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2015, 09:53:56 pm
content: Quote from: Galenbo on October 09, 2015, 08:19:22 pmThere isnt a long discussion to it, early on in education girls arent supported in their interests of maths/science and this continues through to the end of their pre tertiary education. I've had female friends and family members who considered a career in engineering but felt they weren't prepared enough for the rigorous maths, not having been exposed to its practical use previously.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2015, 10:31:25 pm
content: Damn, There's more Jedi's in Uk than Electronics Engineers in Oz ..

author: Delta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2015, 10:43:28 pm
content: Quote from: Someone on October 09, 2015, 09:53:56 pmBollocks. Boys and girls get EXACTLY the same education and support in all subjects. Perhaps fewer females CHOOSE careers in engineering, but why let that stop a good rant...

author: Falcon69
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2015, 10:54:14 pm
content: 97% of all statistics are made up.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2015, 11:41:11 am
content: Quote from: Delta on October 09, 2015, 10:43:28 pmNot exactly, there are biases against women doing this. Think of toys, aimed at sexes, which are teaching from birth a stereotype. This then is reinforced again and again. When I was studying and as an apprentice there was under 10 women in the college doing the same or similar technical subjects. they were also negatively biased there, being kept separate and having to commute in every day to classes and such.

author: Delta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2015, 12:40:06 pm
content: Quote from: SeanB on October 10, 2015, 11:41:11 amThat's disappointing to hear. May I ask where and in what era that was?

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2015, 02:00:47 pm
content: Toys based on sex, just look at the local shops and go down the toy isles, and see the blue for boys and pink for girls stuff. As to the college, that was in the 1990's, and I do not think much has changed since then, though the standards have been changed a little. Now the results in the checkboxes are all that matters, like the number who pass, not the ability of the students to do things, like read, write or do any math above the addition of numbers more than fingers on both hands.

author: aargee
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2015, 07:49:57 pm
content: It actually runs a lot deeper than that. An experiment was done with a colony of monkeys where dolls and wheeled toys were left lying around. By in large, the females gravitated toward the dolls and the boys went for the wheeled toys.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2015, 08:17:26 pm
content: Quote from: AcHmed99 on October 10, 2015, 08:09:54 pmIn average yes, but since normal distribution has long tails on both side and since individuals should be free, it's wrong to apply the average to individuals ("your are in group X so you must do Y"). This principle works in symmetry for both genders.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2015, 01:37:57 am
content: Quote from: AcHmed99 on October 10, 2015, 09:03:34 pmI didn't try to blame you, just to consolidate the group traits with the treatment of the individual.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2015, 01:39:21 am
content: Quote from: Delta on October 09, 2015, 10:43:28 pmThey do not, do look at the courses offered at single sex schools where 25% of students study their secondary education (and a larger percentage than that if you consider only University entrants).

author: VK3DRB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2015, 02:23:37 am
content: Quote from: AcHmed99 on October 10, 2015, 08:09:54 pmTry and ague that with feminist militia.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 11, 2015, 05:25:29 am
content: Quote from: AcHmed99 on October 10, 2015, 09:03:34 pmReminds me of politicians who are outraged to find out that half of school students are below average performers!

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 11, 2015, 05:41:24 am
content: Quote from: Someone on October 11, 2015, 01:39:21 amYep, all schools are not equal, welcome to the real world.In Australia all school courses must meet the same basic curriculum, but apart from that individual schools can offer anything additional they like. And even some public schools get special subject and focus treatment. e.g. "technology high schools":http://www.schools.nsw.edu.au/gotoschool/types/technologyhighs.phpSending your daughter to an all female school and complaining (for example) that's she's not getting exposure to mechanical engineering is kinda dumb.Or sending your kid to a Catholic school and complaining they don't teach Islam (or vice-versa)Or sending your kid to a big city school and complaining they don't teach basic farming practice.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2015, 06:55:33 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on October 11, 2015, 05:41:24 amYes, and this is on top of any social/stereotypical/media pressure to gender in education.I was lucky enough to attend technical high schools and had 4 years of electronics education pretertiary, these small group courses relied on specialist teachers choosing to offer unique courses and justifying the educational rigour of them. It appears the teachers involved are now retired so its good to see NSW picking up a uniform set of coursework that is well paced and offers both vocational and academic pathways for students interested in electronics. Having those outlines from the department significantly lowers the barriers to entry for a school wanting to offer a course though it seems only a handful of schools Australia wide are offering any electronics study pretertiary.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 11, 2015, 07:12:56 am
content: Quote from: Someone on October 11, 2015, 06:55:33 amI was fortunate enough to go to arguably the worst high school in the country, with no funding, no resources, no special classes for anything let alone electronics. And when the one student who actually had a creative hobby asked if he could enter a schools electronics magazine competition, was promptly told to bugger off.

author: Galenbo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2015, 08:00:15 am
content: Quote from: wilfred on October 11, 2015, 07:21:40 amThe 2 big reasons to use median instead of average, are not fulfilled in the case of school results:-single deviating value (order of magnitude)-when there's no normal distributionBut it can still be used, for adding some more weight to the speaker, or to show the individual really did go to school till he was 16 years old.Surprise. Median is nearly equal to Average in this case, to a difference that is smaller than the unit, so half of them are under the median too.Quote from: EEVblog on October 11, 2015, 05:41:24 amThere's a whole industry now that serves people who do things that arekinda dumb, refuse to take responsability, don't contribute, play the victim.

author: GK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2015, 01:29:14 pm
content: Quote from: VK3DRB on October 09, 2015, 11:13:12 amSounds like BS to me.The average annual (full-time employed) income in AU in 2014 was $79,767:http://www.news.com.au/finance/work/how-does-your-salary-stack-up-against-the-rest-of-australia/story-fnkgbb3b-1227044922950Most electronics engineers would be lucky to get payed that much. The average electronic engineers salary as far as I can find is ~68khttp://www.payscale.com/research/AU/Job=Electronics_Engineer/SalaryDon't know how accurate these statistics are, but the figures sound about right to me. The average wage for an electronics technician is 54k:http://www.payscale.com/research/AU/Job=Electronics_Technician/SalaryThat is less than the median wage for retail sales. I've read job adverts for technician jobs offering as low as 35k per annum for full-time work! - less than what you get payed stacking shelves at a supermarket.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2015, 03:42:05 pm
content: Depends what job you work at - but an engineer at the company I was doing a placement at was getting £65k p.a. before tax, and he'd only been there for five years.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2015, 03:46:08 pm
content: Quote from: GK on October 11, 2015, 01:29:14 pmAustralia is an isolated small market that is far from Asian, European and North America markets so not a good place for a thriving high tech industry.As one wise person said in another thread, if you want salary X you need to find an employer that can generate out of your work a revenue of Y>X and that's tough.

author: GK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2015, 12:45:40 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on October 11, 2015, 03:42:05 pmThat can be said for many professions. I know of factory-floor workers (machinery operators) with no tertiary qualifications/education earning 100k+. Your point?---------------------------------------------------------------------------I completed an apprenticeship (electronic technician) 14 years ago and my first full-time job immediately after that came with a salary of 30k. The companies head (degreed) engineer was on 40k (about 55k in today's dollars, adjusted for inflation). After a few months he was sacked and I was transferred from the workshop to his chair in the office. After a couple of months I complained that my higher duties were not accompanied by even so much as whispered hint of a salary adjustment. I was awarded a small pay increase (2 or 3k) but walked out before the end of the first year for better prospects.There is a general consensus out there (particularly on forums like this one) that the most valuable engineers are the ones who started off getting their hands dirty in trade-level roles; I've read the written contempt for those who get their engineering "qualifications" straight up with a degree ad nauseam. I wouldn't suggest that anyone considering a career in electronics give this apparent consensus much consideration when summing up their education options.Even with a degree, electronics engineering in general is pretty poorly remunerated. You certainly can get engineering-level work with demonstrated industry experience even if you do not have a degree or are studying part-time to eventually attain one, but good luck getting an engineering-level salary to go with it rather than being bent over the table for the first decade or more of your career.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 13, 2015, 01:56:31 pm
content: Quote from: GK on October 11, 2015, 01:29:14 pmThat seems pretty low in my experience. Should be more like $80k for a decent experienced engineer.

author: SteveLy
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2015, 05:30:27 pm
content: Quote from: wilfred on October 11, 2015, 07:21:40 amSmartarse!Most politicians would not even know what a median is.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2015, 05:44:55 pm
content: Quote from: wilfred on October 11, 2015, 07:21:40 amIt's depend on the quantization and distribution of the grades. In one extrem case they all have the same grade.