Good EuroCircuits PCBA alternative? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Ice-Tea
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 06, 2023, 09:00:55 am
content: I've been using EC for some projects lately. There are some pros and cons. Obviously, being a EU based option, they are more expensive than the far east which is just a logical result of the choices you make.There are, however, a few other downsides. If your actual PCB falls outside their "pool" technical capabilities you're essentially paying for a complete panel. That's a horrible fit for a service you'd mostly use for engineering and small runs. You end up paying through your nose for a few boards. Sadly, it seems the "pool" capabilities are a bit outdated. Not sure if this is by design, ie. relatively cheap pool option but you'll pay premium in most cases anyhow or if they have invested so much time and capital in their PCBA side of the bussiness the rest is lagging a bit . But not great.I also have the feeling they abuse the review process to stall for time. Deliberate or not: it takes too much time.In terms of transparency, time needed to set something up, user friendliness etc. it is actually a great experience. You upload PCB, BOM & P&P and you essentially know exactly what you'll pay, what you're paying it for and how long it will takeright away. Most of the traditional board houses around here will take a week to reply after which you get a single figure which may still change if and when the production actually starts.So my question: what are the options out there, EU or far east, for a service that is comparable to EC (ie upload all the info, get a complete and detailed proposal just about right away) but that is cheaper (far east) or at least more in step with the times (not paying through the nose for a board that has some fine pitch BGAs on it.. Would especially love to hear actual experiences, not "hey I've seen an add for xxx online, did you know they also do PCBA these days?"..

author: Jackster
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 06, 2023, 10:40:13 am
content: Quote from: Ice-Tea on September 06, 2023, 09:00:55 amThose fancy tools cost money to make and run which is why you won't see smaller assembly houses using them.Quoting costs assembly houses money. It can take 1-2 hours to quote a job (mostly getting component prices) and when buyers send out 2-3-5-10 RFQs, that adds up.One can spend many hours a week quoting jobs that buyers don't even intend to run or just want low/high pricing to get a discount from another guy.And yes, quotes do change when production actually starts. Component prices change as stock gets bought up or the cheapest distributor increases their price.I quoted a guy 2 months ago for some ICs at $1 each and when it came to production, backed out because they are now $5 each due to there being no stock on the shelves.A good PCBA will give you a quote that will be valid for 48-72 hours tops.If they say it is good for a month, walk away.

author: Ice-Tea
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 06, 2023, 11:03:44 am
content: No argument from me there ;-)Want to give a quote a go?

author: SMTech
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 06, 2023, 11:32:10 am
content: Quote from: Jackster on September 06, 2023, 10:40:13 amMostly this! It takes tons of work and inventory to do what Eurocircuits or JLC do (and you have to bend to their will) to create a reliable quoting tool including lead times. It also takes a a healthy dose of bullshit and averaging out. There's a reason some of those online suppliers build up their price by using aperture counts etc, its very difficult to automate a costing unless your costing tools knows everything about every component used and every process that will be required, so they try and find way to sorta fudge it so it works mostly.Quoting can be very time consuming, and the shittier the data you offer the longer it takes, all too often we see BOMs that contain parts or values that haven't existed in years or indeed never have and are physically improbable, incomplete part numbers, unreadably formatted or have no indication of their position on generic passive components default tolerances or voltages. If you tag a request for indicative higher volume pricing onto your prototype RFQ, quoting can take even longer as then one compares all vendors and may well have to resort to manual RFQ processes for certain parts and suppliers. I doubt we make a true profit on anyone's prototype work if you costed in the pre-production time that has been spent on it, we rely on the production coming our way or the goodwill passing off on another project as much as anything else.However I take issue with the validity time limit, you can very easily put a caveat in a quote that says it is supply dependent. On our quotes where we supply the parts we build in a margin on the component costings specifically top cover small variation between quoting and ordering.

author: Ice-Tea
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 06, 2023, 12:57:22 pm
content: Well, I understand it's difficult to compete with that or offer the same level of tools, but it's bloody difficult going back to writing mails to a few different contenders in the hope one will have the time to A) provide a quote and B) take on the job in the next month or three

author: Jackster
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 06, 2023, 01:30:56 pm
content: Quote from: Ice-Tea on September 06, 2023, 11:03:44 amSure but no components unless if you are going ahead with an order. That is what I do now..Quote from: SMTech on September 06, 2023, 11:32:10 amThe worst ones are the ones who provide old MPNs and ask for me to find them new ones and to provide them with a list along with the prices of what I pay for them so they can compare...Quote from: SMTech on September 06, 2023, 11:32:10 amI provide an Assembly estimate and then when the customer is ready to order, a quote for the assembly and components. The assembly won't change unless if they add something between the estimate and quote, of which happens at least 20% of the time.My quotes are built into a billing system that converts them into invoices which is why I give them 48-72 hours.

author: Ice-Tea
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 06, 2023, 01:36:19 pm
content: Quote from: Jackster on September 06, 2023, 01:30:56 pmWhat does that mean exactly? Cost for PCB and for P&P etc but excluding the actual component cost?

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 06, 2023, 02:25:20 pm
content: I used Eurocircuits a lot in the past. Someone figured, it's cheaper to pay for boards for 3 day LT than to pay engineers to wait around twiddling their thumb. I think he was right. And the time it takes to search for a cheaper supplier is better spent on delivering the project on time. So we just ordered everything from there by default, even production runs of hundreds of boards, only when the production was larger did we go for a different supplier.That was a while ago. I think their via annular ring definition is quite outdated. I just had a board from them, it marked as a DRC error, that I was using an IC with 0.4mm pitch. Like, that's the part that I'm using, it comes in this package only, deal with it?! But I think they have monopoly in Europe in the small batch business. Since customers go to them, they can do pooling, so the pricing is OK. And since they invested a lot to process data automatically, and efficiently, it's a sort of self fulfilling prophecy. Most people don't know, they have an office in India, to process gerber files overnight. How do you compete with that? Plus I could pick up the phone and talk to a human any time to get something fixed.Now the company I work for is working differently. I just was told that I can get my prototypes assembled in 8 weeks. For me it was a whatever moment, I have no issue twiddling my thumb. Told my manager about the 8 weeks, he lost his cool, "so what do we do?".

author: SMTech
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 06, 2023, 03:53:00 pm
content: Find 2 or 3 (ideally local(ish)) contractors you can work with. When you have a requirement start with an email BCC I need this, in this time frame can you help, only ask to progress to the quoting stage if they are interested. If you are a a commercial user, its better to have a few select verified suppliers you are know than whoever is cheapest at some given point in time. In the UK there is PCBTrain who have an online tool of sorts, there may be others. Plenty of other CEMs large and small offer small batch services, the cost in some cases is admittedly terrifying but equally some of them can justify the expense because they will be putting in all the traceability, documentation processes and checks they would for a production item on top of the time it takes to make a quote handle your data, query your craziness etc etc.QuoteWe certainly get a lot of find me an alternative, luckily not the price half of the query, its often impossible to answer if we don't know what the circuit does or why they chose the original part. We did have one customer forward a request from Global HQ that we list every part we buy to use on their products, where we buy it from, and what we pay so they could look for "synergies" and savings. It was a ludicrous request given the volumes they use and the market post pandemic. We paid the price requested by the whoever actually had the stock, and no you can't have our data or the weeks of time that would take to compile.

author: Jackster
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 06, 2023, 11:28:05 pm
content: Quote from: Ice-Tea on September 06, 2023, 01:36:19 pmYes. And if the assembly quote is okay, then I would fully quote the job if you intended to use me as your assembler.

author: Ice-Tea
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 08, 2023, 08:23:38 am
content: Quote from: tszaboo on September 06, 2023, 02:25:20 pmExactly. Doesn't seem like their classification has changed in a decade. Or more.Quote from: SMTech on September 06, 2023, 03:53:00 pmI actually had that. Neither currently has much interest in more projects. They are quoting 6-8 weeks at least. That's a non-starter.Quote from: Jackster on September 06, 2023, 11:28:05 pmThat would work just fine. I mostly know the cost of the components anyhow (my BOM is actually decent, I can upload it to Digi and know 90%). As the saying goes "we're going a different route" on this one. I'll keep it in mind for the future.