A question on the ethics of digital purchases - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: TheAmmoniacal
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 28, 2016, 12:29:28 pm
content: I purchased an audio album in the Windows 10 Store about 2 months ago, and I've been streaming this music in Groove just for convenience. Yesterday I found that the album had been pulled from the Store and is no longer available; I can't stream any of the songs nor can I download them.Is this something I should accept? Anyone experienced this with other services? What should I do?

author: steve30
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2016, 12:45:50 pm
content: I've never used Windows 10, so can't comment on that specifically, but is it something you agreed to when you purchased it? If the license is such that they can stop offering it whenever they like, and you agreed to it, there's not much you can do about it. I don't agree with this sort of practice, and the best way to avoid it (in my opinion) is to not purchase such licenses.Your mention of streaming suggests that you don't have a local copy on your own storage medium. If the data is stored on someone else's server, then, at the end of the day, they can do as they please with it. Always keep a local copy of anything you don't wish to loose.

author: TheAmmoniacal
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 28, 2016, 12:51:46 pm
content: They almost certainly have a clause in their ToS that lets them do this, which is why I asked about the ethics of it - writing it in their ToS doesn't make it right.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2016, 12:58:11 pm
content: Quote from: TheAmmoniacal on July 28, 2016, 12:29:28 pmLook up the history Microsoft's PlaysForSure (sic), and Amazon w.r.t. Orwell's 1984 (Oh! The irony!)DRM = Digital Restriction Management; Just Say No!

author: daqq
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2016, 12:58:55 pm
content: Legal - yes.Nice - no.It's unethical as far as I'm concerned.

author: rdl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2016, 01:21:46 pm
content: Twenty years ago most licences, EULAs, and such were just a bunch of blah blah. Today, you better read them carefully. This is why I no longer will use any product or service from Microsoft. Did they send you a refund?

author: TheAmmoniacal
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 28, 2016, 01:25:41 pm
content: Quote from: rdl on July 28, 2016, 01:21:46 pmI tried my best to resolve the issue with them, but they simply refused a refund and said there was nothing they could do.

author: MosherIV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2016, 01:50:46 pm
content: This is the problem with the whole idea of virtual media - you are at the mercy of who ever is controlling it.I never understood the move away from physically owning the media on which the music/video is delivered (other than saving the space).Once it is in you hands - THEY cannot take it back from you

author: TheAmmoniacal
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 28, 2016, 01:53:57 pm
content: Quote from: MosherIV on July 28, 2016, 01:50:46 pmYeah - I honestly did not expect this to happen - came as a real surprise. Very disappointed. I've made sure to keep offline backups of all the files now.

author: dferyance
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2016, 01:58:22 pm
content: Quote from: TheAmmoniacal on July 28, 2016, 01:25:41 pmYeah I hate dealing with companies that do that sort of thing. They'll claim that they cannot do anything because it is against policy. But the company is who writes their own policy. It would be like if I said I cannot pay my bills because I have a policy against that. Doesn't exactly work.I try really hard to only buy things that don't have DRM in them. I would never dream of buying something, for example off of vudu. It is very similar to your experience where you just are basically paying to rent it for a long time. My only exception has been buying steam games but for sure that is taking a risk.I'm even one of the odd ones who buys physical CDs. Often times Amazon will give you a ripped copy of you buy the physical disk. I have had a few cases where buying the physical CD that already included the ripped music was cheaper then buying from their MP3 store.The unfortunate thing around this is, it is marketed as "selling" you something. It is even the "Windows Store", not the "Microsoft, would like license stuff from us, place." So people buy expecting all the features of an actual purchase. But then the company knows that they can do almost whatever they want because it isn't actually a sale. I wish this sort of thing were illegal. If it is licensing, they shouldn't be able to make look like or treat it as a purchase of an item. They don't do this because people would then second guess buying it. But it is important to be honest in how you present your products and services.

author: TheAmmoniacal
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 28, 2016, 02:08:55 pm
content: The songs you buy in the Store are DRM-free, you can download them (make available offline) and save them anywhere and play on any device. Won't help you much if you were just streaming them though.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2016, 02:58:08 pm
content: Quote from: dferyance on July 28, 2016, 01:58:22 pmStrictly speaking they are selling you something: alicenceto use something. Licences can be revoked; see the Ts&Cs!

author: Kilrah
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 28, 2016, 03:03:24 pm
content: Quote from: TheAmmoniacal on July 28, 2016, 12:29:28 pmI don't know how Microsoft works, but with the others I've used straming and download is a different thing. You can pay a monthly fee for streaming, and/or you can buy the album at which point you may download it and store a local copy that is still readable even if you broke all ties with the service.Hence purchasing the album without downloading, if possible could just be considered to be your problem, just like if you had gone to a shop, bought something, and left it at the till when leaving...

author: dferyance
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2016, 03:22:22 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on July 28, 2016, 02:58:08 pmI'm hardly a legal expert, but wouldn't something like the first-sale doctrine apply if it is a sale? Can I re-sell things I purchase from the Windows Store? There are all other sorts of things that apply to sales such as warranties and return policy. The way online software "stores" are done, they are quite careful to ensure that doesn't apply.The trick is they want to market it as a purchase at a store, no different than if you went to an actual store. The idea in people's mind is similar to buying a video game cartridge, I bought it, so it is mine. I can return it if defective, lend it to friends, store it in my basement and it will always work. This is part of the whole argument of copyright infringement being stealing. Notice they use the word "store". They want you to feel safe about the purchase because you buy from stores everyday. But they want to legally treat it as a license. I have no problem with them charging you money for a license to something. But they need to market it as such rather than throw that in long agreements that no one reads.

author: TheAmmoniacal
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 28, 2016, 03:28:03 pm
content: Quote from: Kilrah on July 28, 2016, 03:03:24 pmThe Store has two options for music, you can buy a Music Pass or you can purchase individual songs and albums (one-time fee). If you buy the Music Pass for Groove you can stream all their songs and (I believe) make them available offline (but with DRM I assume, or something similar).When you purchase an album or a song, that song becomes available for streaming and you can select it and download it for offline listening if you want.I naively assumed they would be available for streaming and download "indefinitely", for the life-span of the service. There's no message telling you to download the songs, no download link is provided, there's no message that they might disappear. And when you do make them available offline they are automatically stored internally (and you have to navigate the storage folders to find them).I was not under the impression that I bought some files that I would have to download and keep stored somewhere. I assumed I was buying the streaming service - but for a limited number of songs - that I paid for the synchronization with all my devices, and for universal accessibility to the music.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2016, 03:42:33 pm
content: Call them every day and complain that you're unhappy with their move. Say that you'll never buy anything from them ever again. Leave as many negative reviews as you can.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2016, 03:48:01 pm
content: Quote from: dferyance on July 28, 2016, 03:22:22 pmThis has been debated ad tedium elsewhere. I guess you are in the US, and implicitly believe US laws are universal.

author: Kilrah
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 28, 2016, 03:53:33 pm
content: OK.I'm a bit of a data hoarder and consider anything that is not on my own local storage is susceptible to disappear at any time, and always download/save anything I'm interested in keeping. It has been justified more than once...

author: TheAmmoniacal
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 28, 2016, 04:00:40 pm
content: Quote from: Kilrah on July 28, 2016, 03:53:33 pmI would like to say the same.. But when your primary machine is a tablet-laptop hybrid with a mere 128 GB SSD that also runs two VMs - keeping it all offline is a lot to ask!Or take the example of people's Steam accounts, imagine if you had to have your Steam Library offline because they might pull their games! Or Origin..I have learned from this and will put the music on my own cloud service.

author: suicidaleggroll
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2016, 04:05:29 pm
content: Quote from: Kilrah on July 28, 2016, 03:53:33 pmSame here. If it's not on my computer under my control, and backed up on my own backup system, then it's not mine. It's somebody else's, and it can disappear at any time.If you care about it, save it.

author: Kilrah
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 28, 2016, 04:06:12 pm
content: Quote from: TheAmmoniacal on July 28, 2016, 04:00:40 pmWell... I simply couldn't consider that as an acceptable situationI can live with 512GB for "work in progess" data I need on my mobile device, as long as I can connect my 6TB drive with the rest when at home.Quote from: TheAmmoniacal on July 28, 2016, 04:00:40 pmYeah well, those are at another level... but there's no DRM-less alternative anyway and all games work that way on their respective platforms, so in this case you've just got to eat it and hope I guess.

author: suicidaleggroll
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2016, 04:07:40 pm
content: Quote from: TheAmmoniacal on July 28, 2016, 04:00:40 pmNo it's not...buy a backup drive, they're not expensive.Quote from: TheAmmoniacal on July 28, 2016, 04:00:40 pmYou mean peopledon'tdo that? I have my entire Steam library saved locally, on multiple machines, with multiple backups.Quote from: TheAmmoniacal on July 28, 2016, 04:00:40 pmcloud = not yours, which means it can STILL disappear at any time.

author: TheAmmoniacal
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 28, 2016, 04:12:59 pm
content: Quote from: suicidaleggroll on July 28, 2016, 04:07:40 pmIf your Steam folder is deleted, your HDD crashes or you buy a new PC - you expect that when you install Steam you can download all your games again right?That's all I ask for my music.

author: Kilrah
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 28, 2016, 04:17:57 pm
content: Quote from: suicidaleggroll on July 28, 2016, 04:07:40 pmThat is completely useless though, you're just wasting space. If a game was to be removed from steam your local copy would be rendered useless straight away.

author: CJay
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2016, 04:22:56 pm
content: Quote from: suicidaleggroll on July 28, 2016, 04:07:40 pmAnd has been proven on several occasions when Dropbox have deleted user's files because they may have been in violation of copyright. I don't think this is unique to Dropbox either, they're just the cases I know about.I have a very simple rule, if the data isn't on physical media I own and can lay my hands on then it's at risk.

author: TheAmmoniacal
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 28, 2016, 04:27:07 pm
content: Quote from: CJay on July 28, 2016, 04:22:56 pmOf course it's at risk and you don'townit, but a company deleting your purchased products are still douchebags (no matter what their legal rights are or what their ToS says).

author: suicidaleggroll
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2016, 04:34:56 pm
content: Quote from: Kilrah on July 28, 2016, 04:17:57 pmSteam works just fine offline, there is no need for an internet connection to play games you've loaded on your system.

author: suicidaleggroll
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2016, 04:39:53 pm
content: Quote from: TheAmmoniacal on July 28, 2016, 04:12:59 pmI don't expect anything from cloud services. TBH I don't use Steam all that often either, only when required. I prefer GOG, and I archive the installation files for any games I purchase along with all of the other digital data I care about (pictures, music, movies, important documents, system backups, etc)

author: rdl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2016, 04:47:45 pm
content: I keep a copy of my entire Steam library. I put games I am actively playing in the Steam folder which is on a small SSD. The copies are stored on a large spinning disk drive. I move them back and forth as needed. It's much quicker than downloading them over and over.These days, if I can get a drm-free copy of a game from GoG, I will always buy there instead of Steam.Surprisingly, there are many games delivered by Steam which will play fine without it even running, though sometimes you have to jump through a hoop or two. A few examples are Fallout 3, Half Life 2, and Kerbal Space Program.http://steam.wikia.com/wiki/List_of_DRM-free_games

author: Kilrah
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 28, 2016, 04:49:27 pm
content: Quote from: suicidaleggroll on July 28, 2016, 04:34:56 pmMost games need steam to be running and logged in, yes you can be offline but next time you went online if a game had been removed form the library it likely wouldn't be able to authenticate that particular game and it would thus be rendered useless.Of course we don't know for sure since I believe that never happened, but any decent DRM system would do it that way.

author: vodka
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2016, 05:33:15 pm
content: QuoteThis pass you for going by legal, the corporation abuse and rob us and we can't do any for avoiding it. The unique response is not buy nothing and try to pirate all that you can, as says the saying"Who steal to thief he has 100 years of pardon"

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2016, 06:11:01 pm
content: Next time pirate it.Legal - No.Ethical - Yes, at least based on their behavior.

author: suicidaleggroll
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2016, 07:13:40 pm
content: Quote from: David Hess on July 28, 2016, 06:11:01 pmIt's not the artist's fault that Microsoft pulled it (probably). Next time just buy it somewhere else, somewhere that lets you download the music DRM-free and listen to it whenever, wherever, and on whatever device you like. There are plenty available. One company, that everybody already knows is an asshole, acting like an asshole, is not justification for screaming anarchy and stealing whatever you want from people who have absolutely nothing to do with said company...

author: TheAmmoniacal
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 28, 2016, 07:17:29 pm
content: Quote from: suicidaleggroll on July 28, 2016, 07:13:40 pmIt probably is the artist or record company, see attached pictures.

author: edavid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2016, 09:35:24 pm
content: Can't you do a chargeback?

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 28, 2016, 10:51:32 pm
content: Quote from: TheAmmoniacal on July 28, 2016, 12:29:28 pmNo, ofcourse not! Content creators like to get paid a million times for doing one job once. We should not give into that!