RIGOL DS2000 or the new RIGOL DS1000z - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: Edwin Noorlander
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2013, 01:32:20 pm
content: Hi, I am looking for a scope that can decode SPI and I2C.Now I like the DS2072(with the hack options) but now RIGOL comes with a new 4 channel DS1000zIs there a review or Dave can you make one abouth lowend scope's with decoding options?Greetings EdwinNoorlander.

author: Electro Fan
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2013, 06:52:29 pm
content: Yep, the 2000 series no doubt has some extra features and performance but the 2 extra channels of the 1000Z might be helpful for some decoding work; this is a thinker. It would be great to have more info on how the 1000Z holds up vs. the 2000.Either way, it's nice to see Rigol continuing to come up with good products at good prices (which translates to good value).As others here have said, it's too bad Rigol doesn't add 2 more channels to the feature set and performance of the 2000 series but I guess it's Rigol's way of saying "have you considered our 4000 series?" Which is understandable but that opens users' to saying "well, ok, as long as we're going to $2k, how about an Agilent?" Rigol could throw a knockout punch if they just got 2 more channels and a LA option onto the 2000 series, but I guess they are content to first introduce the 4000 MSO scopes - whenever that it is (it's on their site in China, should be yet this year elsewhere, maybe).

author: Hydrawerk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2013, 07:20:36 pm
content: DS2000 has a better ADC. It is 1GSa/s per channel.

author: Deckert
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2013, 09:30:20 pm
content: Quote from: Hydrawerk on August 20, 2013, 07:20:36 pmIndeed, but "better" does not always translate to "better for a specific task". The 2000 series is amazing, but if a person was working on, say, audio frequencies and would like to examine the waveform distortion at four different points at the same time, the 1000z would be better suited to task.For myself, I've never used my 2-channel 'scope to grab one-shot events with more than one channel, which would be 1GSa/s on the 1000z for one channel, yet I've craved 4 channels for examining signals at the same time at lower frequencies. The 1000z also has a great form factor, just ever slightly larger than the DS1000 series.So, as usual, it all comes down to "it depends" .. what do you need it for? Want to repeat Dave's multiplier experiments? The 1000z can show what the 2000 can't. Want to catch a 1ns glitch at two different spots on a circuit? Go for the 2000.Dave said somewhere he's getting a 1000z for review at some point - can't wait for that!--deckert

author: Electro Fan
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2013, 11:14:31 pm
content: Turns out there is a way to get 4 channels with the DS2000 series - buy two of them. Two 100MHz DS2000s are still a few $ less than buying one 100MHz DS4000, and you have redundant power supplies, screens, and more. Just can't see all 4 channels on the same screen.The 1000Z is probably going to be a big seller and the 2072 will continue to do fine too.

author: Electro Fan
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2013, 11:29:32 pm
content: On a more serious note, looks like maybe there are some differences in the decoder user interfaces between the 1000 and 2000 series?(It's probably in here if you can read this - looks to be somewhat different than the decoder sections in the DS2000 and DS4000 manuals:http://cn.rigol.com/download/China/DS/User_guide/DS1000Z_UserGuide_CN.pdf)

author: crt
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2013, 04:18:44 am
content: If you have money, absolutely go for DS2000 seriesI take DS1074Z because tight budget and need more channel (difference about 300US at taobao price)

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 21, 2013, 04:57:11 am
content: Quote from: Deckert on August 20, 2013, 09:30:20 pmThere is currently ONE in the country just arrived and I can have it for a bit if I want, but it's gotta be back before the Electronex show.Not sure if I have the time to do this before then, but if so what essential stuff would you want to see?I presume just a basic side-by-side comparison with the 2000 and 1052E?

author: crt
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2013, 05:13:46 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on August 21, 2013, 04:57:11 amyes please

author: nack
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2013, 09:13:00 am
content: That would be excellent Dave!

author: Fsck
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2013, 09:14:33 am
content: Quote from: crt on August 21, 2013, 05:13:46 amditto.

author: Deckert
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2013, 03:03:43 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on August 21, 2013, 04:57:11 amA side-by-side would be great, but I'd venture to say you don't even have to include the old DS1000 series in the comparison since it's a well-documented and reviewed 'scope on its own, but maybe a size comparison would be nice.The DS1000z carries on with the tradition of using a single vertical control knob - how fidgety is it to work with? Effectively you will be controlling 7 traces with the one knob (4real + 1math + 2 ref).Is the slightly lower waveform update rate a deal-breaker compared to the 2000?What's the fan noise like?Does it have vernier controls for voltage when pushing on the adjust knob?Easy to save/extract screen dumps?It has less buttons than the 2000-series, how kludgy are the menus?Grab a signal, zoom it, how quick is it?Is the XY mode okay? (eg. fast enough to tune a 10MHz signal, correctly labeled, etc)Noise floor?Should be doable in a fairly short-ish vid?--deckert

author: Electro Fan
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2013, 10:46:35 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on August 21, 2013, 04:57:11 amIf possible, a look-see at how the I2C/SPI/RS232 decoder differs between the 1000Z and the 2000. Thanks

author: Edwin Noorlander
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2013, 07:50:51 pm
content: I like that to Dave.I mean if it's possible to see if four channel is a advantage for decoding I2C/SPI/RS232 or is the memory depth from the DS2000 a advantageI no and saw the comparison with the DS2072 and the DS1052E(#451), but now the DS1000Z has also de decoding advantage. And the price gone be at the same level.I think it's hard to make a decision.Maybe i better off with a DS2000 and a logic analyser?

author: echen1024
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 22, 2013, 09:29:23 pm
content: The advantage of the 4 channel is you can decode more than I2C/Dallas 1 wire. You are able to decode more serial interfaces.

author: crt
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2013, 12:33:58 am
content: Quote from: Edwin Noorlander on August 22, 2013, 07:50:51 pmI think 12M Mem depth, was BIG enoughprice DS1074Z about 5/8*DS2072at my post about DS1074Z "teardown" ==> for sure NEXT DS1000Z will include LA, but dunno when they will release itSo next DS1074Z-S ==> 4Channel Scope + ARB WaveGen + LA ==> Thats real killer

author: echen1024
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 23, 2013, 02:25:48 am
content: Quote from: crt on August 23, 2013, 12:33:58 amShut up and take my money.

author: eV1Te
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 09, 2013, 11:00:48 pm
content: Quote from: Deckert on August 21, 2013, 03:03:43 pmFor the price of the DS1000Z-S i am very happy with its performance, but there is a lot that could be improved, by just optimizing the firmware, a lot of bugs still even though they are on firmware version 2.XX now.Waveform update rate seems to be very similar to DS2000 (intensity grading is hard to tell apart according to another comparison on the forums), I mean as long as you are above 10000 wfrm/s, then it doesn't matter, unless you are looking for very few glitches in very fast signals.Fan noise is quite high, but that goes for most scopes I think.It has vernier control if you push the vertical scale knob.It is easy to save screen dumps, you have a dedicated QuickPrint button on the front panel. However there is still some serious bugs if you want to save the waveform/data (not just an image). You can not save more than 100k points, otherwise you get an error. But Rigol is working on it according to themselves.Menus are a bit annoying, Rigol is not the best when it comes to software and especially user interfaces (at least not on this scope). It would also be nice with dedicated vertical scale knobs for each channel (but that would significantly increase the size of the instrument)For a budget scope it is quite responsive, nothing I would like to use for extended periods of time, but for hobby/home use it is fine. One thing that is annoying, if you turn any knob, especially vertical or horizontal position, it stops updating the display while you are turning. so if you want to offset something quite a lot, then you are basically just moving a static trace until you let go. And if the trace is outside the screen, then you have to stop now and then and wait 0.5 seconds to see if it has appearedXY mode is horrible! Very laggy, and slow screen update rate (nothing like the DS2000), unless you go for very short timebase (which you can't use for audio frequency for sure). But for 1 MHz and upwards it seems to be fine. It always shows a split screen with normal waveform on the top, and a small XY graph on the bottom (which explains the slow speed since it has to update two different graphs at the same time).RMS noise is about 200 uV on mine, 20 MHz bandwidth limit has no affect, but the measured RMS noise does change depending on horizontal timebase setting (even with the same sampling rate, just different zoom levels)Some extra annoying things about DS1000Z-S:The built in signal generator does not have a stable output, the amplitude is varying by as much as 5 % every 1.5 Hz on some settings. (Like a slow amplitude modulation)Rise time and overshoot glitches on square wave.Not possible to use the dedicated "trig out" port, as a trig signal from the signal generator (it is only for waveform updates per second or pass/fail signal)Not possible to synchronize the two signal generators since they seem to have different reference oscillators that vary quite a lot in frequency, causing drift over time (noticeable while using modulation of signals that you want to keep in phase)The LED that indicates that signal generator is turned on, does not light on boot-up even though the signal generator output is turned on during boot (remembers its state from last power cycle)Some math functions that only operates on a single channel (Abs, Integration etc) requires you to have two channels enabled, and it has to be exactly the two channels that you used last time for the standard math function such as CH2+CH3.FFT is slow and does not work together with High-Res mode or averaging (would be nice to be able to average FFT to get more stable reading), it also uses very few points to calculate the FFT, so the spectrum is pretty much useless.As mentioned above, not possible to use the large 24 MB memory of the scope, since it only allows you to save a maximum ca. 100kpoints to external media

author: tinhead
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 09, 2013, 11:34:52 pm
content: Quote from: eV1Te on December 09, 2013, 11:00:48 pmthat's strange, i think both are in one and the same FPGA, so synch should be possible.

author: Hydrawerk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 09, 2013, 11:56:34 pm
content: That's what I would expect from Rigol... Many of the bugs might never be repaired. But the value for money is hard to beat, there is no similar scope of this category on the market.

author: eV1Te
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2013, 12:09:38 am
content: Quote from: tinhead on December 09, 2013, 11:34:52 pmI did some tests now, and just two simple signals will not drift, but if you enable modulation it will (I was trying to use signal generator 2 as a simple trig signal to my modulated wave).Example:Signal1: 1 MHz sine with 50 kHz amplitude modulationSignal2: 50 kHz Square waveThe Square wave will drift with regards to the modulation wave (about one period per minute), i.e. the modulation frequency is not precise. Maybe just a bug in software where the modulation data is one point to long or short so that the frequency is off by 1 bit or such.

author: eV1Te
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2013, 12:31:29 pm
content: I updated the firmware on my DS1000Z from 00.02.00 to 00.02.01 yesterday, and they have fixed many of the small bugs in the software now. There are still some that remains that I have noticedn, but I will try it out some more before making any conclusions.

author: Mark_O
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2013, 06:49:57 pm
content: Quote from: eV1Te on December 11, 2013, 12:31:29 pmIs the new 1000Z firmware available for downloading from anywhere?

author: marmad
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2013, 06:59:36 pm
content: Quote from: Mark_O on December 11, 2013, 06:49:57 pmhttps://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/sniffing-the-rigol's-internal-i2c-bus/msg345866/#msg345866

author: Mark_O
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2013, 11:57:47 pm
content: Quote from: marmad on December 11, 2013, 06:59:36 pmThanks, marmad. Ironically, I've been following that thread most days, but somehow managed to skip over one page.

author: marmad
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2013, 02:17:28 am
content: Quote from: Mark_O on December 11, 2013, 11:57:47 pmYou're welcome. I don't think that's irony - but I get your point

author: Mark_O
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 29, 2013, 04:25:09 am
content: Quote from: marmad on December 12, 2013, 02:17:28 amI forgot to explain where the irony came from.I have Notify tagged on certain topics I don't want to miss any discussion on, and get an e-mail message when new posts are made. Unfortunately, if I don't have time to check them immediately, even more posts will be made, and new email Notifies sent (which I don't believe are supposed to happen). Then when I check my mailbox, I see a notice on the top page, and miss the one(s) on the previous page. So I jumped directly there, thus skipping a page of discussion in the process.The irony arises from the fact that a feature I used to make sure I didn't miss something, actually caused me to miss something. (Improperly utilized, of course.)