Proto board recommendations? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / beginners

author: duckduck
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2021, 10:17:08 pm
content: I see wide variety of proto boards for sale: some have green soldermask and plated vias in a grid, some are just brown with holes in a grid. Pros or cons to either variety? Stock photos attached.EDIT: Thank you for the many responses. I just received some of the green fiberglass plated-through-holes variety. I'm gonna give that a try.

author: MikeK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2021, 10:36:33 pm
content: The green have plated-through holes. The brown don't. Buy green.

author: ledtester
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2021, 10:50:07 pm
content: Both have their pros and cons.Green FR4 boards pros:- made of sturdy FR4 material- plated through holes -- makes it easy to make connections from either side of the boardGreen FR4 cons:- FR4 material is harder to cut and drill- plated through holes are slightly smaller than the ones in the paper boards making it difficult to mount components with thick leadsPaper PCB pros:- easy to cut to size and drill- available in larger sizes- come with different copper track patterns- generally cheaperPaper PCB cons:- not as rigid as FR4- copper pads more easily come unglued from the board- holes not plated throughAbout plated-through holes... I've actually found that the paper boards are easier to re-work (i.e. modify, change out components, etc.) because it's harder to remove all of the solder out of a plated-through hole.I have a supply of both and both types have proven to be useful.Of course, there will be those who say you shouldn't use either kind, but that's a whole other discussion.

author: penfold
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2021, 10:56:16 pm
content: The brown (resin bonded paper type, assuming the green is fiber-glass) is a little easier to work with mechanically (cutting and drilling etc), also without plated holes can be a little easier to desolder leads on multi-pin parts. I normally go for fiber-glass without any copper, but sometimes use the variety with plated-holes if there's a connector or something that needs being held in better.

author: MikeK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2021, 12:51:30 am
content: That the green FR4 boards are "harder to cut" is a bit of an exaggeration. I cut them just fine...score and snap.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2021, 01:28:17 am
content: Quote from: duckduck on May 05, 2021, 10:17:08 pmIf you're talking about high quality name-brand protoboard, Ledtester's list of pros and cons applies in its entirety, and I'd say that both are good choices.If, however, you're talking about getting protoboards from China (eBay, Aliexpress, etc), then I strongly suggest avoiding the brown ones, as the quality of those from China is abyssmal. (I got some with missing drill holes and terrible etching that had shorts between some pads and breaks on some traces. The quality was like a poorly done homemade PCB.) In contrast, the fiberglass boards (green usually, but also available in other colors) are excellent.You can also find non-plated-through-hole fiberglass perfboards on eBay and AliExpress if you look a bit harder.And also consider designing your own perfboard and having it manufactured in China — it's more expensive but still dirt cheap, and you can have them however you want!

author: Peabody
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2021, 02:32:25 am
content: I've used perfboards that mimic the layout of the standard 830-pin breadboard. They can be pretty handy if you've laid something out on a breadboard and want to transfer it to a soldered board.https://www.ebay.com/itm/292319384009

author: JustMeHere
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2021, 04:03:29 am
content: If you shop around the Internet, you can actual PCBs for under $5. With CAD software like KiCad you can design them far more mistake free than you would do with a proto board. Yeah, there's a bit of delay in getting the board, but it's far less frustrating.

author: HB9EVI
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2021, 08:42:35 am
content: I have both of them on stock; certainly some sources of the brown ones are not the best quality, that's true, but there are good ones as well. Normally I use the brown ones for my projects, and they just do fine.

author: bobbydazzler
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2021, 09:33:51 am
content: I would buy a few different type boards to find what you like best.For the paper boards I like the stripboard version - the increased surface area of the copper tracks holds the pads to the board better than the pad per hole paper boards(these easily come undone for me), I also agree with all the pro's already mentioned for paper boards.For fr4 I prefer single sided either pad per hole or strip board. Double sided is a bit tricky to create solder bridges(solder falls through to the other side in a big blob or you have to burn all the flux off your solder which doesn't fall through but doesn't look like a nice joint). Fr4 is slightly more difficult to cut to size too.These are the boards I'm using atm -https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/284173990619, it's fr4 stripboard that's been pre tinned. No need to clean the topside of the board either when it's single sided.

author: penfold
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2021, 01:41:05 pm
content: Quote from: MikeK on May 06, 2021, 12:51:30 amFor the benefit of the OP, I wouldn't claim FR4 to be any more "difficult" to work than the phenolic type... but as a more abrasive material, the FR4 tends to dull HSS drill bits and files if trying to get a nice edge, so worth bearing that in mind to use abrasive papers or carbide bits. Though in all honesty, its a bit of a moot point if using tools cheap enough to be disposable or having a selection of a few different sizes of FR4 type.

author: Photoman
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2021, 03:11:40 pm
content: I would avoid the brown resin bonded paper type, at least the ones available cheap now.They absorb moisture and start to curl over time.I have a stack of them that are warped by at least half an inch.They can be used, I just cut off some of the warped edges ad the center is ok but I wouldn't use it for anything critical.The FR4 ones are so much better.

author: Doctorandus_P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2021, 03:30:55 pm
content: You should buy a bit of both and compare what works best for you in different situations.The stuff is cheap enough to just buy some and try if you like it.The amount of bending the resin paper bonded stuff does is apparently quite dependent on the brand you have, mabe it depends on the batch.I'm writing this, while I always avoided the brown paper stuff myself...Apparently I'm happy enough with it to not try something else.The FR4 stuff eats tools, except good quality carbide. It even dulls sandpaper quite fast.But you can buy bags full of the stuff for cheap in lots of sizes so there is not much need to cut them to size anymore.I used to use quite a lot of the stuff, long ago from before cheap china happened and my method of cutting them to size was to first make a start break with a diagonal cutting pliers, and then bend it in sections to make the cut grow over a row of holes to the other side. This gives a very ragged edge and I clean that up with a benchtop grinder.Working with FR4 on a benchtop grinder releases a lot of the glass fibers and they will sting your skin for hours if you do not take precautions, so I wear plastic gloves while doing this, and do it outside.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2021, 03:53:08 pm
content: Choose something with these attributes:one side with a pad pattern that matches your small components with more than two terminals (because two two terminal components trivially bridge any convenient gap)the other side a solid ground plane - makes connections easy and is electrically goodunplatedholes in many places distributed across the board. The pads are insulated, but you stake through wherever you want to connect to the ground plane.For components that don't naturally fit the pad pattern, glue an appropriate carrier board on top of the pads.For power, glue a strip of PCB on top of the pads.Example:http://www.busboard.com/surfacemountpcbs

author: DrG
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2021, 04:16:33 pm
content: Received these the other day...single side plating, paper PCB but FR4 layer on the plated side...a hybrid6X6 cm ~US$3.42-4.89 for 10.http://www.icstation.com/10pcs-66cm-green-universal-board-single-side-experiment-board-prototype-board-p-12704.htmlHave not tried any yet.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2021, 04:22:43 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on May 06, 2021, 03:53:08 pmThose are cool… why can’t the Chinese make cheap versions of those?!?I might need to make some myself!Quote from: DrG on May 06, 2021, 04:16:33 pmThat’s not FR4, it’s just phenolic paper with solder mask.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2021, 04:44:29 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on May 06, 2021, 04:22:43 pmYes, they are neatI've considered making some smaller ones, since I seem to chop those (expensive) boards into pieces. But my pessimism makes me wonder whether cheap fab houses would correctly dounplatedholes. It isn't the normal option nowadays!

author: harerod
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2021, 05:45:43 pm
content: Choose your poison:- fine fiber glass dust from cutting FR4- phenol fumesTake care of your health. Just keep in mind what you are working with.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2021, 08:38:06 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on May 06, 2021, 04:44:29 pmHmmm… I think you can. I mean, I know you can configure them that way in a layout program. But I’ve honestly never tried to do it with a hole that’s in a pad!Edit: JLCPCB, for example, expressly lists them and how to do it:https://jlcpcb.com/capabilities/Capabilities

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 07, 2021, 07:32:50 am
content: JLCPCB does appear to be gaining market mindshare, but I've never used them.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 07, 2021, 09:42:28 am
content: Quote from: tggzzz on May 07, 2021, 07:32:50 amThey’ve captured a huge share of the entry level PCB market because of being appreciably cheaper, while still offering a good quality product. Their capabilities on 2 layer boards are not the best, but for probably 99% of the boards hobbyists make, this makes no difference, so they can keep costs low that way. (Their 4 layer process has tighter tolerances and thus higher capabilities, and it can actually be cheaper to use their 4 layer process than to get a 2 layer board from a higher-spec company...)In the past year and a half at work, we’ve ordered probably 30 different boards from them, from little 12x12mm breakout boards to around 120x250mm boards, all 2 layer. Haven’t had any issues whatsoever.

author: deskpro256
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 07, 2021, 08:46:03 pm
content: I have both and as many have said they both have their pro's and con's. But in the end these are usually for some test or crude prototype where I solder some PCB modules and regular components together.If the thing works and you don't need more of them, they usually stay like that in some generic plastic project box, although if I need more or the thing is worth it I make a PCB and possibly order it too (or even etch it at home)I just wish more people would use the proto boards instead of ordering crappy PCBs with PCB modules on them, seems like a waste of time and waste of the PCB materialAlso I stumbled upon this some time, just can't remember if it was here or somewhere else:https://protopad.ca/Might be useful for you(and anyone else) in the USA/Canada. For me it's not worth ordering to Latvia

author: MathWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 10, 2021, 11:32:19 am
content: So far I use cheap proto boards all the time, for low power stuff they are fine, but it pretty easy to lift a pad on mine, and the 15cm*9cm ones usually warp as u move across them.I have a bunch of the green via types, they are nice, but really a pain to de-solder stuff from, especially in a forest of parts.I have a bunch of copper plated boards, but I don't have the right tools yet to make neat looking cuts and grooves/etc. And I don't have the chemicals for doing it that way. But I'll get some tools 1st and try dead bug style.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 10, 2021, 01:44:30 pm
content: Quote from: MathWizard on May 10, 2021, 11:32:19 amUse a dremel and a spherical dental bur to make cuts like thisAnd use multiple techniques like thisFor other examples, seehttps://entertaininghacks.wordpress.com/2020/07/22/prototyping-circuits-easy-cheap-fast-reliable-techniques/

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 10, 2021, 04:31:46 pm
content: Quote from: MathWizard on May 10, 2021, 11:32:19 amI’ve been meaning to make a tool I saw in a YouTube video: take an x-acto knife and dremel a blade into a hook that looks like a carpet knife. Except instead of sharpening it on the long edge (like a regular blade or carpet knife), sharpen the hook transversely, essentially making a hook-shaped chisel. Then you just run it along a ruler to cut the copper on PCB stock.

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 10, 2021, 07:20:28 pm
content: For UK folks, I noticed these sheets of 150 Manhattan pads the other day (no seller connection)https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/143826734716. 7mm square, with one 5mm square pad on one side, two approx 2mm x 5mm on the other, 1.6mm FR4.Probably expensive compared to JLPCB (I don't know how much they would charge for that many v-grooves) but cheap enough to not be an issue. Obviously postage works out better if spread over multiple sheets too. I don't know how easy it would be to solder them down rather than glue, but with cyanoacrylate it's easy to tap them off and re-use anyway.It would be nice to see some convenient single row 0.1" spaced pad strips, although matrix or stripboard can be easily snapped to use for that. Anything DIP, I tend to dead bug anyway.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 10, 2021, 11:27:49 pm
content: Quote from: Gyro on May 10, 2021, 07:20:28 pmDo those have any advantage over taking some tinsnips to a piece of FR4, plus glue?

author: ledtester
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 11, 2021, 05:34:39 am
content: QuoteSounds like this video at 1:55 ...https://youtu.be/vq968AFgPhg?t=1m55s

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 11, 2021, 08:50:36 am
content: Quote from: tggzzz on May 10, 2021, 11:27:49 pmA bit quicker and more convenient? I never seem to have any offcuts around when I need them and it takes time to cut some new strips. The 2-pad side (4 pad if you snap off a pair together) is potentially useful for the odd SMD on a rats nest?Just convenience really - [Ed: they're not a lifesaver but] I never mind spending a little bit for that.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 11, 2021, 09:28:21 am
content: Quote from: ledtester on May 11, 2021, 05:34:39 amYES! That’s exactly the one I was thinking of. I just couldn’t remember who had made the video.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 11, 2021, 09:34:27 am
content: Quote from: Gyro on May 11, 2021, 08:50:36 amAll very reasonable!The trick is to use the best available toolsfor the job at hand. But you know that