Apple to have asked its suppliers in Taiwan to avoid using "Made in Taiwan!? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: MT
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2022, 02:53:46 am
content: Are there any export/import laws or international treaty's etc that require the use of ""Made in"" xxx? Or is it optional?!

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2022, 06:25:33 am
content: CBA to watch a video; are they removing it to be replaced with "designed in California" for the hipster crowd or to avoid the wrath of their CCP overlords?

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 09, 2022, 07:37:45 am
content: Quote from: magic on August 09, 2022, 06:25:33 amThe latter.

author: danielmeyers
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: August 09, 2022, 08:53:31 am
content: Apple has always been unprincipled, never interested in anything but money. Hiding behind the fact that the inscription "Made in Taiwan" can lead to delays, fines, and even a ban on the entire shipment, Apple, simply because it cannot predict how events will develop, is trying to please everyone. What happens if Taiwan decides not to give Apple chips until they are marked "Made in Taiwan"?

author: AndyBeez
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2022, 09:17:43 am
content: Maybe the Taiwan's chip fab houses should stamp "Taiwan Is A Sovereign Nation" round the edge of their silicon, in 60nm. Or even inside multi layer boards.Fake news or Apple getting ahead of the south China shit storm? I'm sure there are many in the USA who would be happy if Apple dropped made in China altogether and moved iToy production to Mexico (only joking). Designed by wired caffeine disciples of Jobs.Remember when everything was Made In Hong Kong?

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 09, 2022, 11:10:28 am
content: Quote from: danielmeyers on August 09, 2022, 08:53:31 amI suspect contractual obligations would stop either party from just pulling the pin. In any case, will the average consumer care? Probably not. Most people probably won't see past the pretty box.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2022, 11:39:28 am
content: Quote from: danielmeyers on August 09, 2022, 08:53:31 amI’ve worked for Apple, and can say with confidence that they do have goals beyond just making money. (And in some areas, like supplier responsibility and environmental impact, Apple is far ahead of any competitor.) But as a publicly traded company, making money is their primary goal, as is literally required by law.Anyhow, the rule in question has been the law for years, but China said they’d start enforcing it now. So I’m not really sure what other option Apple has.Seehttps://www.engadget.com/apple-nancy-pelosi-visit-taiwan-labels-195542365.html

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2022, 12:08:46 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on August 09, 2022, 11:39:28 amHaving recently heard of the saying "China's final warning", I would say they have the option to ignore them.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2022, 12:48:44 pm
content: Apple are exiting China pretty quickly at the moment. It will take a decade though. Until then you have to suck dick to some degree or fold. Unfortunately they moved to India ...None of this is anywhere near a real problem though. Most of our globalised technology supply chain organisation is a mess. That's the real problem.I'd buy an iPhone tomorrow that was built in the US from US and European components. And I'd pay twice the amount of it. But it'd expect it to last for 10 years including software support rather than the current 6 years...

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 09, 2022, 12:49:12 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on August 09, 2022, 12:08:46 pmChina has been making vague empty threats for years. "Playing with fire" is another one that's popular. The CCP knows it's stuck between a rock and a hard place. Nevertheless, it will be interesting to see what happens from here. There has already been a dramatic shift during COVID. Now that the world is recovering, I think we'll see the manufacturing and supply chain landscape change significantly.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2022, 12:52:32 pm
content: I look forward to that happening. I suspect it won't.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 09, 2022, 01:01:48 pm
content: Quote from: Halcyon on August 09, 2022, 12:49:12 pmTheir threats are not empty for anyone who does business within China. They get shut down or are severely punished pretty quickly if rub CCP the wrong way. I don't think they will shut down Apple as it brings export money, however they can deal a lot of pain for sure.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 09, 2022, 01:07:27 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on August 09, 2022, 12:52:32 pmI don't know... I think it has potential. After the sanctions that China placed on Australian coal and iron, we've seen nothing but a strong economy. The world is realising that relying less on China isn't necessarily bad or unachievable. Even average consumers here have been turning away from Chinese produce and electronics for years. Seldom do you see food made in China in Australian supermarkets anymore and the same goes with consumer goods and electronics. Household products made by Bosch/Siemens is one example, it's used as a marketing tool.

author: Stray Electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2022, 01:23:36 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on August 09, 2022, 01:01:48 pmThat's exactly why I would think that most western businesses would want to seriously GTF out of China. It's clear that China is getting more and more belligerent as time goes on. There are plenty of much more stable countries that would welcome companies like Apple and many of them would not be affected by global shipping problems of the sort that we've seen with China. China's response to Covid and with them having to shutdown major ports and cities for months on end should be sufficient reason by itself for many western companies to leave.China is building man made islands out in the major shipping lanes means that they will almost certainly declare large parts of the shipping lanes as "Territorial Waters" in the near future. That would allow them to deny access to vessels registered in, owned by or traveling to or from, any country that they disagree with. That should be reason enough for western companies to start looking for new area for their product production.Also if I was a large technology company like Apple, I would move all of my engineering and production to a country where IP rights actually meant something.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2022, 01:47:01 pm
content: You can't just leave China. It's where a bunch of the raw materials are. To access them they made it difficult to export the materials and easier to move manufacturing within their control.YMMV but making less unadulterated crap might be a better approach to the future. Longer product cycles, better product maturity, better repairability and parts supply, much longer lifespans, less materials used which are more responsibly sourced and lower complexity is where we need to go.China is irrelevant if we make that change.But no one is going to do that while someone is making coin out of outsourcing and the competition is doing it. You'll just disappear.

author: Kasper
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2022, 02:05:30 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on August 09, 2022, 11:39:28 am"Far ahead of any competitor" is a bold statement.I bet you meant 'I worked at apple and it seemed like they cared.' Or have you also worked in multiple departments at every single one of their competitors?

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2022, 02:09:12 pm
content: Quote from: Kasper on August 09, 2022, 02:05:30 pmIt’s accurate and publicly documented. Go do some research.

author: Kasper
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2022, 02:25:34 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on August 09, 2022, 02:09:12 pmJust to be clear, the statement is 'far ahead'. Not ahead of average. Not ahead of every one else. It is 'far ahead' of every single competitor.They must be doing some amazing stuff then, to make up for the fact that they have more versions of charge cables than average, they don't make it easy to replace batteries and they purposefully slow down older devices.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2022, 02:30:30 pm
content: Quote from: Kasper on August 09, 2022, 02:25:34 pmI don't want another one of these bloody threads.The only thing that Apple ships that doesn't have a USB-C hole is the old series iPads, the iPhones and the Airpods and they ALL ship with USB-C chargers and USB-C cables.The batteries you can walk in an Apple Store and get replaced and you can buy them from their parts store now.And they don't slow down older devices any more (that was inexcusable. They should have notified the user at least)People complained and they fixed it

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2022, 03:00:39 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on August 09, 2022, 11:39:28 amThis is a myth and wrong. You shouldn't be propagating such an untruth.Quote from:https://caselaw.findlaw.com/us-supreme-court/13-354.html

author: Kasper
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2022, 03:03:54 pm
content: Quote from: bd139 on August 09, 2022, 02:30:30 pmYou're making a lot of arguements for someone who claims to not want to argue.You imply that you agree lightning cables are bad and try to hide the prevalance of lightning cables by minimizing the prevalance of iphones.You imply non-replacable batteries are bad and minimize the effort to replace theirs. It'd take me days to walk to an apple store. Lots of people don't like giving their phone to anyone, none-the-less a stranger who knows tech. Nor do they want to pry it open to replace the battery themselves.In doing so, you admit they are in many ways, worse than competitors. So, they must be doing some very amazing things to make up for that enough to earn the title 'far ahead of all competitors'.I'm not saying they are the worst, not saying they aren't average, I'm just saying they aren't far ahead of every single competitor.You admit they've done inexcusable things while making excuses for them. We should probably just leave it at that.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2022, 03:05:52 pm
content: Same old recycled post. This one always goes in a for loop. Unsubscribed from thread. Life's too fucking short to roll back to slashdot life circa 99

author: themadhippy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2022, 03:27:18 pm
content: Maybe along with the likes of nike,disney ,primark and many more well known brands they should label there stuff truthfully "Made in a far east sweatshop"

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2022, 04:10:03 pm
content: Quote from: dunkemhigh on August 09, 2022, 03:00:39 pmSoooo close but no cigar: your quote is true. So is my claim. How can both be true? Because not all corporations arepublicly traded. The case you linked to was one regarding aprivately-heldcompany, which has much more freedom to manage itself how it wants. But once you have publicly traded shares, the doctrine of maximizing shareholder value comes into play, and there have been many court decisions supporting this. I specifically said “publicly traded” because this is the key condition.Fromhttps://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2015/04/16/what-are-corporations-obligations-to-shareholders/a-duty-to-shareholder-valueQuote(Emphasis mine.)

author: AndyBeez
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2022, 04:15:46 pm
content: Maybe Apple is going to standardize it's own small print into 'one nation' small print?This from a pamphlet in the 'Hello' sleeve that no-one ever reads because everyone is just too excited to plug in the box and get it linked to their Apple ID:

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2022, 04:29:57 pm
content: Quote from: Kasper on August 09, 2022, 02:05:30 pmFrom personal experience, I can vouch for Apple having a true sense of customer-centricity, elegance, and design. (One could, of course, argue that that is Apple’s approach to increasing sales.) Meanwhile, Apple’s commitment to supplier responsibility, reducing environmental impact, and making their products accessible to special-needs users are all well documented and externally audited. Apple remains the only big tech company to rigorously audit its suppliers — supplier employees frequently report that no other customers ever audit them. (And Apple has followed through and terminated contracts with suppliers that violate its rules.)And let’s not forget the way the media often twists the truth regarding Apple, because beating on Apple gets clicks. A perfect example is about working conditions: some years ago, it hit the news of a supposed epidemic of worker suicides at Foxconn, a major supplier. And it’s true, there had been some worker suicides, and the number looked bad— until you looked at the sheer number of Foxconn employees. Turns out, therateof Foxconn worker suicides was very significantlylowerthan that of the Chinese population at large!Or how Greenpeace ranked environmental responsibility solely by what companiespromisedto do, not whether they actuallydidit!So companies that made huge pie-in-the-sky promises got top marks, while Apple, which actuallydidwhat it said it was doing (and often didn’t say anything until after the fact) got ranked poorly, despite actuallydoingmore.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2022, 04:48:34 pm
content: Quote from: Kasper on August 09, 2022, 02:25:34 pmThey have USB A to Lightning, USB-C to Lightning, USB-C to USB-C, USB-C to MagSafe 3, USB A to Apple Watch, and USB-C to Apple Watch. Of these, devices with Lightning or USB-C inputs form the overwhelming majority. The Watch is literally the sole product they sell thatcannotcharge using either Lightning or USB-C.How is that any more complex than what other brands have, between micro USB, mini USB, USB-C, and various specialty plugs on the device end, and USB A, USB-C, or micro USB OTG on the charger end? It’s a comparable matrix of combinations, if not bigger.Quote from: Kasper on August 09, 2022, 02:25:34 pmNor do most competitors, and unlike the competitors, Apple has a large network of its own stores, resellers, and a mail-in program, all of which replace the battery quickly and at reasonable cost.Quote from: Kasper on August 09, 2022, 02:25:34 pmThis isn’t true, and it never was. Some versions of the OSes (most notably iOS 11 in my experience) did slow down old devices, but it’s because the newer software simply exceeded the hardware resources. (So yes, slowdown, but not “purposefully”.) With iOS 12, Apple made huge optimizations, such that iOS 12 ran faster on old devices than iOS 10 did, bringing it back to iOS 9 speeds. Ever since then, every iOS update has maintained performance really well.

author: deadlylover
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2022, 05:05:45 pm
content: Here is an environmental report on the latest iPhone. It’s hard to find any equivalent from their competitors, you’d think they’d jump on any opportunity to one up Apple, no?https://www.apple.com/environment/pdf/products/iphone/iPhone_13_Pro_PER_Sept2021.pdf256GB of flash is 12kg of CO2 emissions, that’s a fun fact.The sheer economic output of a 2+ trillion dollar company is a net good for the world IMO. But they use Lightning cables so they’re the most evil company on earth…Well at least we can all agree the best thing Apple makes is their stock, we probably all owe a decent chunk of our retirements to them.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2022, 05:42:03 pm
content: Quote from: Halcyon on August 09, 2022, 01:07:27 pmPeople have short memories, it doesn't take long for them to forget a major catastrophe and go back to doing whatever they were doing that led up to it. Production may well move away from China, but I suspect it will be to some other lower cost region of the world with a new set of problems. It should be obvious though that relying too much on ANY other nation no matter how friendly is a risky situation. Global politics are hard to predict and harder to control.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2022, 06:23:48 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on August 09, 2022, 04:10:03 pmTalk about cherry-picking! From the very same article you selectively quoted:Quote from:https://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2015/04/16/what-are-corporations-obligations-to-shareholders/corporations-dont-have-to-maximize-profits

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2022, 07:53:26 pm
content: Quote from: AndyBeez on August 09, 2022, 09:17:43 amTaiwan goes to considerable effort not to poke the Chinese dragon needlessly. Eventually that will not be enough, but enough provocation now would provoke a war or punitive actions.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2022, 08:05:35 pm
content: Quote from: dunkemhigh on August 09, 2022, 06:23:48 pmUmmm… duh? “Quoting” is selective copying, otherwise it’s just copying the whole thing.That article is an opinion piece showing both sides. But frankly, one side (my side) is much more strongly supported by evidence than the other. The author of the opposing argument is precisely the “some academics” the author I quoted is referring to!Quote from: dunkemhigh on August 09, 2022, 06:23:48 pmAnd again, the key issue ispublicly traded. Every publicly traded corporation is a corporation, but not every corporation is a publicly traded corporation. (The existence of stockholders does NOT mean it’s publicly traded.) So the officers of “a corporation” do not have to maximize shareholder value, but the officers of a publicly traded corporation do. This distinction, which you pretended I didn’t explain to you already, is not that hard to grasp!

author: AndyBeez
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2022, 08:41:36 pm
content: Quote from: David Hess on August 09, 2022, 07:53:26 pmInteresting idea, China invades Taiwan because someone used "tiananmen square freedom democracy massacre" as a their crypto vault's private keypair? I'm sure the red army will receive the same warm welcome from the Taiwanese people as the Russian'sspecial operationreceived.Too provocative? Not our problem Mr Hess. Any shooting shit show is Australia and Japan's problemo. We'll just send 'technology' plus a load of Starlink dishes - so we can watch the explosions on Fox News.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2022, 09:38:51 pm
content: Quote from: tookiWhich turns out to be good enough when you want to push your point but not for anything else.On the other hand the author is "Lynn Stout, the distinguished professor of corporate and business law at Cornell Law School", and I reckon her opinion is rather more pertinent than your repetition of an Internet myth.

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2022, 10:52:54 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on August 09, 2022, 11:39:28 amThe Apple board condones people in the company to try to achieve goals which seemingly serve some greater good while costing the company money directly ... because it makes the company money indirectly. Apple is in a position to spend money to seem more charitable due to their margins and size. Adopting more ambitious green/humanitarian goals and semi-forcing that on their competitors, who don't have the scale or margins to achieve them as efficiently as Apple, can have a competitive advantage. A more positive brand also helps them to fight off regulators etc.But they of course only condone it up to a point, which is to say until it starts costing the company money in the greater scheme of things. So when push comes to shove and appeasing a totalitarian regime improves the bottom line, they will come up with any convenient excuse at hand to do what everyone also does ... because principles are fine for show, but they aren't a charity. They act better sometimes because it is part of their business model, assigning morality to it is deeply naive.

author: gamalot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2022, 01:59:37 am
content: It was started 10+ years ago but was not strictly enforced, and was used as a reaction to what happened recently.

author: Kasper
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2022, 05:15:20 am
content: Quote from: tooki on August 09, 2022, 04:48:34 pmTake number of USB cable models and divide by number of companies that use them. Then do the same with lightning cables.Imagine if every company acted like apple and each one had their own cables.Quote from: tooki on August 09, 2022, 04:48:34 pmI'm no phone connoisseur but I think easily replaceable batteries are less common than they used to be. Perhaps apple set the trend and others followed. If that is the case then apple deserves even more blame.Quote from: tooki on August 09, 2022, 04:48:34 pmTell it to the judge.https://www.npr.org/2020/11/18/936268845/apple-agrees-to-pay-113-million-to-settle-batterygate-case-over-iphone-slowdownsQuote from: tooki on August 09, 2022, 04:48:34 pmEver since they got caught.

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2022, 05:22:24 am
content: Quote from: deadlylover on August 09, 2022, 05:05:45 pmUnless China pulls the plug like PutinYou will retire with nothing and you will be happy

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2022, 05:46:47 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on August 09, 2022, 01:07:27 pmJapan did a thing in 2020 and told Japanese companies that instead of having their manufacturing being chased out of Japan with taxes and costs, the govt would now instead entice them to bring back local manufacturing in the form of tax breaks. They avoided naming names, of course.I'm sure what happened last month to that PM had nothing to the change of policy that he brought in. But I understand if it was one of the reasons he was made to resign. And the offer wasn't as simple as just opening a new factory. Other countries have been slow to adopt this type of policy, if any, prolly hoping it would all blow over before spending too much money moving stuff around.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2022, 06:06:22 am
content: Quote from: dunkemhigh on August 09, 2022, 09:38:51 pmAnd the opposing piece is written by “Stephen Bainbridge, the William D. Warren distinguished professor of law at U.C.L.A. School of Law, is the author, most recently, of "Corporate Governance After the Financial Crisis.”And it’s not “internet myth”, it’s also what I was taught in the accounting and management courses I took in university.Plus the whole court precedent thing.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2022, 06:58:15 am
content: Quote from: Kasper on August 10, 2022, 05:15:20 amI agree on the last point. But most phone manufacturers are tiny players. The top 3 manufacturers make up over half of shipments. If every one of the top 3 made its own plug, they’d have similar volumes as Apple with Lightning. And Apple had good reason to create Lightning at the time: no connector on the market met their needs. USB-C wouldn’t come for a few years (and its design was influenced by Lightning). Had Apple switched to USB-C right away, people and media would have cried about yet another proprietary plug that was only around for a short while.As for the first point: the percentage of manufacturers doesn’t matter. What matters is the percentage of phones, and Apple is a significant player. 1 in 6 smartphones shipped last quarter was an iPhone.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2022, 07:06:57 am
content: Quote from: Kasper on August 10, 2022, 05:15:20 amA settlement doesn’t actually mean the accusations are true or not. It’s not a decision. It simply means Apple decided it’d be cheaper or strategic to pay that rather than go to trial.Nor do I have much faith in juries to actually understand the nuance of technical issues without bias— just like you aren’t.Apple’s only real mistake in the entire batterygate thing was not being candid about the prevent-shutdowns-on-compromised-batteries feature (which, incidentally, will do the same on a later model whose iOS shipped with that feature already, not just on updating) activating and what it meant to the user.But that feature aside, the general complaints of “ermagherd i installed a new OS and now my doodad is slower”… like, um, that’s how software generally works. It takes a TON of effort to optimize. (And it’s nice to see that Apple and Microsoft have both done it over the past few years.)

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2022, 10:19:33 am
content: To get back to the original topic. Apple has the same option everyone has to protest unjust law. Civil disobedience. Befehl ist Befehl is no excuse.Now I don't blame Apple for just chasing monetary self interest instead, but trying to claim the moral high ground for the company while they are doing this shit is ridiculous. It's wrong, the fact that I abet companies who do wrong is wrong, it's all wrong. There is no moral high ground in this, just compromise for the sake of greed and comfort.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2022, 11:04:54 am
content: The difference is that people and the media hold Apple to far higher standards than any other company. Meanwhile, Apple’s “moral high ground” claims aren’t any different from any other company’s — other than the things enumerated in their supplier responsibility and environmental standards, where Apple is very transparent in both goals and results.

author: jonovid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2022, 06:33:44 am
content: wall street journal is saying70% of World semiconductor supply is out of TaiwanTSMChttps://www.tsmc.com/englishhttps://www.wsj.com/articles/the-world-relies-on-one-chip-maker-in-taiwan-leaving-everyone-vulnerable-11624075400updateif this is true then........