Engineer mistakes - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: hamdi.tn
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2014, 09:50:58 am
content: Hi,Well the question is pretty much easy, how to handle engineering mistakes, define responsibility within the team when working in small count teams.My personnel experience in my work is am the only engineer in place for 3 years, so it's up to me to do schematics, PCB, test, mechanical design for enclosure, EVERY DAMN THING. Project manager is more a commercial than an engineer, so no one to check or validate what i do.Am not here toso the point is ,recently i lost my job for a pcb design error that cost less than 1000$and am cool about it, am opening my own business and i already have a few client that trusted my work for 2 years now. And as am going to be again in charge of everything , am interested to know from more experience developer their opinion about the right way to handle engineering mistakes, how to manage the team in order to avoid those error effectively in small team environment .

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2014, 10:02:38 am
content: Do things slow enough, with checklists and reviews, so that you don't make many mistakes.If you're then asked to do something "faster", say 'Sure, i can do, but mistakes are more likely as i will have to reduce some of the reviews and rechecking phases'.That way it's less your fault and more a known tradeoff due to speed.And if you do make mistakes you can at least prove you did try to check things by showing your checklists.Even if the checklist didn't pick something up you can at least say you will add it to the list to prevent future occurrences.

author: brabus
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2014, 10:04:18 am
content: In one word? Review, review, review.Schedule a review, and DO IT. Make the projects being reviewed by someone else in the team.After the review, schedule another important thing: second review.99% of mistakes we found was @ schematics level, with a very few percentage of wrong components' footprints.Then, finally, learn to live with mistakes. In the prototyping phase, the concept of "mistake" is senseless: the pressure is so high, the timing so tight, that a mistake is basically unavoidable.I am really glad to hear you leaving a place where they dump people for 1000$ mistakes. I really wish you the best of luck with your new activity! You deserve the best!

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2014, 10:07:26 am
content: yeah, a bad track/component on a PCB that requires a new $500 8layer prototype isnt a mistake.It's a PCB revision.Also, make it known to your boss anything environmental that is causing you dev problems like distractions/noisy office etc..Then when mistakes are made you can call attention back to that as a possible reason for it.Higher-ups like to have reasons for mistakes.

author: AndyC_772
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2014, 10:10:10 am
content: Mistakes can and will happen, so the first thing to do is accept it.If you have people in your team with overlapping skills, then it's always worth making sure the work done by one person is reviewed in conjunction with another. Sometimes the simple act of explaining how something works is enough to highlight errors - so it can be just as valuable to have the work of a senior engineer reviewed by a more junior one as it is the other way around. Bonus: the junior engineer gets trained as part of the process.It also helps that nobody gets, or feels, personally blamed for mistakes. If you design something that has a bug in it, then all eyes are on you. If, however, you design something that gets reviewed by someone else and which STILL has a bug in it, then at least the two of you can share the guilt.No review will catch everything, though. There will always be instances where a mistake isn't the fault of anyone on your team, but instead is down to something external over which you have no control.For example, I designed in a chip last year which had several pins marked as LED outputs. What it didn't say in the data sheet, was that during reset, they also act as configurationinputs, and that if they're sampled as logic 0 as the chip exits reset, then it goes into a factory test mode where nothing works properly. No amount of reviewing was going to catch that particular bug, and a PCB respin was - IMHO - inevitable.Try and have a process which avoids silly, unnecessary mistakes, of course - but make sure your team understands that they WILL happen, and plan accordingly. If you can take a rev A board to production then that's fantastic, but it's not the norm.

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2014, 10:11:40 am
content: Quote from: AndyC_772 on July 01, 2014, 10:10:10 am+1Misery loves company

author: vortexnl
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2014, 10:20:12 am
content: Sucks to hear they sacked you! But it sounds like you're better off starting your own businessA while back I designed a small circuit board for my work, and even got it looked at by a more experienced electrical engineerWhen the first board was soldered, it didn't work. It was due to the ADC on the board sharing the same I2C address as the RTC on our development board, but the requirements were that this board had to work with our development board, so it cost my boss about 100 euro's in PCB costs. He is cool about it though!

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2014, 10:22:39 am
content: Quote from: hamdi.tn on July 01, 2014, 09:50:58 amUnbelievable, I hope they replace you with the Engineer they deserve.Now that you will be working for yourself there will be considerably greater ownership of your work and as a consequence of that a much lower error count.If your business succeeds you might consider performance bonuses and/or profit sharing to give your employees a vested interest in your company's success.Good luck in your endeavors.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2014, 10:27:30 am
content: If your first pcb run is 100% ok you are very lucky, normally there are multiple engineering sample runs needed to test also for EMC compliancy etc.Without colleagues to review you can use this as an (costly) alternative for your boss to deal with before the project starts.

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2014, 10:29:44 am
content: oh, your starting your own business now.I must have missed that bit.hehe you are the boss lol.

author: Legit-Design
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2014, 10:47:05 am
content: Quote from: Psi on July 01, 2014, 10:07:26 amthisnon-geek = bossgeek = anyone who does something other than talk all dayIt's hard for some people to understand why it's not helping if they come and ask the same damn thing every 5 minutes.

author: hamdi.tn
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2014, 10:51:13 am
content: thanks everyone for your advices and encouragementQuote from: brabus on July 01, 2014, 10:04:18 ama lesson to learnQuote from: AndyC_772 on July 01, 2014, 10:10:10 amtell that to someone who designed 2 board in 10 years, and they were a total fail in marketQuote from: vortexnl on July 01, 2014, 10:20:12 amwell 100€ isn't much at all, an overreaction depend on the boss personality and i think it depend mostly on how much is familiar to design process, or he is just the kind of boss that only think about money.Quote from: Psi on July 01, 2014, 10:29:44 amwell, yes and when i think how engineers are treated in industry i hate being the boss, and the main reason am asking for advice is to be fair to people who will eventually work with me.

author: hamdi.tn
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2014, 10:57:22 am
content: Quote from: Legit-Design on July 01, 2014, 10:47:05 amlove this one , think i will put it on my office wall

author: Terabyte2007
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2014, 11:01:01 am
content: Mistakes are inevitable. It's how you learn as an individual and work as a team to correct and improve upon the design on an ongoing basis. We run into design issues all the time and I used to see the blame-game being played out quite a bit at my old company which did nothing but hurt them and in the end they went out of business. People need to learn from their mistakes, accept them and improve upon their designs based on them. Without mistakes, we never learn!To be fired of something as stupid as a 1k PCB error is bad management. I would guess that the company will have a high turnover rate which will effect their success in the future. Usually when a design error is found in our group, it's flagged and any immediate customer matters or service is given priority. A review meeting is scheduled with engineers, management and software developers if needed to determine a corrective course of action. The mistake is fixed and we move forward learning from the incident. No finger pointing, no blame, just a solution.

author: Richard Head
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2014, 11:36:15 am
content: If you expect the prototype PC board to work perfectly you are setting yourself up for disappointment.I have long given up on that utopian ideal.Normally my third board is production ready.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 01, 2014, 11:56:35 am
content: Quote from: hamdi.tn on July 01, 2014, 09:50:58 amWow. That's not a company you want to work for anyway!

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2014, 11:58:36 am
content: I would put accountability and performance management up there, for a small team.Accountability requires clear roles and responsibilities. That's where you need to be careful with reviewers - are you better off with more workers or reviewers? If you want to have reviewers, how do you structure them? How are responsibilities shared between reviewers and workers? ...Performance management means financial rewards and career opportunities, both positive and negative.You will find that firing people is hard, both for the manager, as well as for the team. But it can be turned into a positive experience (not through fear), by trimming the fat and making the whole team more productive.You will also find that engineers are far easier to manage, than non-engineering types (like sales or HR).

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2014, 11:59:54 am
content: QuoteI suppose that monetary losses are far less important in this case than the context under which the mistake was made.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 01, 2014, 12:08:41 pm
content: I don't recall who said this, I think it was in a book on I think IBM, but true story.A new engineer screwed up and caused $100K damage or something like that. The manager, when asked if he was going to fire him said:"Fire you? Are you crazy, I just spent a hundred thousands dollars on your education!"

author: hamdi.tn
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2014, 12:25:49 pm
content: Quote from: dannyf on July 01, 2014, 11:59:54 amnot for the boss, who asked that i repay the production cost 5mn after we detect problemQuote from: EEVblog on July 01, 2014, 11:56:35 amsure thing

author: hamdi.tn
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2014, 12:51:06 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on July 01, 2014, 12:08:41 pmwell here company suppose that recently graduated engineer can built rocket, and experienced engineer do not belong to human kind and more like unmistakable designing god and most of the time they blame you for not being one.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2014, 01:01:16 pm
content: QuoteI often tell people that my value-add is that I have lost hundreds of millions of dollars for other people so they don't have to make the same mistakes.Very effective sales pitch.

author: KJDS
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2014, 02:07:12 pm
content: Quote from: Legit-Design on July 01, 2014, 10:47:05 amAt one place I worked at, I'd work from 10am til about 3:30, then from 8pm til 10pm.I used to achieve far far more in the evening session.

author: jlmoon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 01, 2014, 02:45:38 pm
content: I have found that by grouping designs in a gang of 3's.. in other words.. one Engineer designs a device, two others proof / check design drawings, schematics, pcb layout, suggest revisions and cycle through this process until final viable prototype is functional and meets specifications. Realizing it cost more, but in the long run less mistakes and a much better product or device.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2014, 03:49:56 pm
content: Quote from: hamdi.tn on July 01, 2014, 12:25:49 pmMy answer would be: that is OK IF I get 50% of the shares of the company. Who owns the company takes the financial risk.

author: Dave Turner
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2014, 08:22:30 pm
content: Legit-DesignI think you are over optimistic with your graph if we're talking about unscheduled meetings. I had a very good boss, for whom I had a great deal of respect, but he would insist on going on for 15 minutes about something that I'd acknowledged and accepted in the first 15-30 seconds. It usually took a good hour to get back on track after the subsequent fallout discussion.

author: Galenbo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2014, 09:47:33 pm
content: Quote from: Legit-Design on July 01, 2014, 10:47:05 amWhat's on the Y-axis (es) ? I don't understand the red points.

author: AG6QR
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2014, 10:15:21 pm
content: I make my living in software, and only come hear to read about hardware as a hobby and diversion.I can't imagine being fired for a little $1000 mistake! I agree that you don't want to work for that kind of company. I could be wrong because I don't have the whole story, but it sounds to me like maybe the management responsible for that kind of reaction just made a mistake that could cost the company much more than a thousand dollars.I can't count the number of little $1000 mistakes that have happened over my career. Bugs are a part of the game. The best we can do is try to design as few as we can into our products, try to implement as few as we can, and then test, validate, retest, and revalidate, and fix errors as early as possible. Every product development cycle will have numerous errors, but the expensive ones are the ones that are found and fixed late.Part of the art of good engineering management is recognizing that humans make mistakes, and mitigating this fact by organizing your processes and procedures with enough validations, checks, and balances so that one single engineer's momentary brain fart won't bankrupt your company, won't cause the rocket to blow up on the launch pad, won't kill anybody, won't even be noticed by very many people. With good processes in place, most of the stupid mistakes will be caught before they become really expensive (and no, $1000 isn't really expensive).

author: hamdi.tn
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2014, 10:49:52 pm
content: Quote from: AG6QR on July 01, 2014, 10:15:21 pmtotal agree on that,well, as no validation or check procedure exist in this company , i usually work the client engineering team to validate the result or to modify the pcb as they may have a second thought about what they actually need. what happen in this particular case that i send a validation mail to the client via our manager assistant (that's the procedure here, no direct contact with client ) the project manager blocked the mail and didn't check the files himself either and pass those files directly to pcb manufacturer not for prototyping but to get 150 board done. saying that the board was simple so no need to check to prototype ... well shit happen

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2014, 11:03:45 pm
content: QuoteI don't think it does any one any favor to dwell on the past. What happened happened and it is time to move on.

author: AG6QR
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2014, 11:09:11 pm
content: Quote from: hamdi.tn on July 01, 2014, 10:49:52 pmWell, the decision to skip prototyping was the expensive mistake, I believe.For a small run, if the cost of letting a mistake slip through is small enough, maybe it's ok to skip prototyping, and accept the risk that the boards may be bad. But if you're going to do that, it's probably still a good idea to do as much other checking and validation as practical, to try and reduce the risk of spinning a bad batch of boards. And the person (or group) who makes the decision to skip prototyping should accept the responsibility for the consequences of that decision.

author: Zad
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2014, 11:13:25 pm
content: As the saying goes:On time.On spec.On budget.Pick 2.Engineering is by it's nature empirical. If they want certainties then they should try religion instead, because otherwise they won't find it in this universe. I bet it cost them more than $1k in managers paperwork! It is amazing how quickly people like that lose sight of the real costs in business, all the overheads that they don't explicitly get billed for. Dave is right though, you don't want to work there.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2014, 11:14:24 pm
content: It is quite irrational for a firm to fire a person over a $1000 mistake - it costs the firm more than that to get a person fired.I suspect that something else was driving the decision.

author: hamdi.tn
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2014, 11:14:31 pm
content: Quote from: dannyf on July 01, 2014, 11:03:45 pmalready moved on

author: TerraHertz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2014, 02:21:22 pm
content: Quote from: Galenbo on July 01, 2014, 09:47:33 pmYou must be having a meeting just now?Y axis is 'productivity', an ineffable quantity.I like how it does negative for a while after arriving at work at 9am. When you discover some mistakes you made yesterday, and have to undo them. Then at 9.30am just when you are in the depths of chaos and confusion about how to fix them, your boss turns up and wants a progress report.He'll turn up again at 2pm, when he gets back from an extended social lunch, and very cheerfully be expecting you to be efficiently working at the top of your day. Instead of being completely distracted by your co-workers who returned from lunch an hour ago and all then wanted to chat to you about what they heard John say to Bill about Paula.The boss passes by again at 5pm on his way home, just as your concentration is being blown again by most other people leaving and chatting to you on their way out.Finally, once there's almost no one around you can get some stuff done for a few hours, except when someone orders in pizza at 6pm. You go home at 8pm. Between 11 and 2pm you finally see a solution to that problem that's been defeating everyone for months, but one part of the circuit is not clear in your mind. At 4am you suddenly wake up with that last part crystal clear. You write it down then go back to sleep.

author: jlmoon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 02, 2014, 05:17:04 pm
content: QuoteThat's the time spent in the reading room

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2014, 05:50:40 pm
content: Quote from: Zad on July 01, 2014, 11:13:25 pmWhat do you mean pick 2? Pick one, and we will see about how much the others may be applied to this.Or, Choose one:QuickCheapGoodChoose one, the other 2 will be a variable.Generally you find that option 2 is the most common choice. Then they want to know when you will be done and why isn't it finished yet as you have had 3 minutes to do it, and want it to be perfect. they also moan about how much it costs, and that they could do it faster and cheaper.

author: Tinkerer
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2014, 11:57:12 pm
content: Quote from: SeanB on July 02, 2014, 05:50:40 pmI have always heard pick 2. And in fact pick two is the original way it was meant as well. Never heard anyone say that you only get one.

author: retrolefty
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2014, 03:28:38 am
content: QuoteYep, it goes "you only get to pick two".

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2014, 03:55:50 am
content: Quote from: TerraHertz on July 02, 2014, 02:21:22 pmhehe, also when you get to work you have to answer all the emails that have piled up and it puts you into a bad mood. Hence you are now less productive than you were before checking emails

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2014, 04:47:11 am
content: It says pick two, but in practise you only get the one choice, the rest are variable.

author: Dave Turner
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2014, 08:19:11 pm
content: In design and production environments setting up and following appropriate procedure is good.The problem is that if procedures are over restrictive nothing ever gets done. Finding a balance for the situation is key.

author: VK3DRB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2014, 02:57:40 am
content: I had an experienced and competent TV repairman friend who told me he did a home visit to fix a TV back in the 80's. The woman threw him out after she complained he was incompetent and did not know what he was doing because he had to read the instruction manual (actually it was the circuit diagram he was using to debug the TV).Like the boss sacking a bloke for a $1000 mistake on a PCB, ignorant people (the boss in that case) make poor judgements base upon their own inexperience. Everyone makes mistakes and those who don't are liars.But there are engineers around who just don't get it.A few years ago one arrogant engineer thought he was superior, but in fact his PCB layout skills were hopeless. Four spins on a simple PCB that had only 6 LEDs and one tactile switch on it. And around the same time he had a 5V to ground short on an internal plane, because he didn't bother doing a design rule check. In the end he was paid off to get out.I know a CEO is was trained as an electrical engineer. He has expertise in optics and lasers, but knows nothing about writing software and his electronics expertise is below the poverty line. I tell him to always budget for TWO prototype PCBs - the first spin and one re-spin to fix any problems and to consider it a bonus if we get it right the first time. "Any problems" could be an Altium bug, an error by the engineer, marketing changing the requirements, or EMI issues.

author: AndyC_772
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2014, 07:17:01 am
content: Quote from: VK3DRB on July 05, 2014, 02:57:40 am...or incorrect data sheets, or any number of issues where devices don't behave like their simulation models, or PCB vendors helpfully "correcting" artwork - and yet it's still virtually impossible to get some people to understand that a rev B is likely to be needed and should be included in the project schedule. The idea that engineers should "just get it right" first time remains oddly prevalent even amongst people whose job it is to know better

author: hans
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2014, 09:08:19 am
content: Quote from: jlmoon on July 02, 2014, 05:17:04 pmOr possibly opening your mailbox and finding these e-mails:" New Specifications - Complete Overhaul""New use-cases!" -- "Shouldn't bethathard to add right? We have already sold 3 of these! Should ship in 2 earlier than planned.""Customer coming in tomorrow" -- "He is not happy about the previous tests""PANIC PANIC PANIC"

author: Bored@Work
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2014, 09:14:58 am
content: Quote from: hans on July 05, 2014, 09:08:19 amGuys, you got it wrong.That is the lack of coffee. It takes some time until it kicks in.

author: VK3DRB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2014, 12:55:45 am
content: Quote from: AndyC_772 on July 05, 2014, 07:17:01 amAgreed. We do aim to get it right the first time, but for the reasons mentioned, it sometimes does not happen. In any case, it is always valuable to have reviews of PCB designs where you leave your ego the door and listen to constructive criticism. We have reviews as part of our processes. In fact, everything anyone does is reviewed by someone before it is approved, irrespective of how experienced or skilled the developer is.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2014, 04:36:31 am
content: We had to change a Transmitter site "apology" recording over from a "cartridge" system to a CD player.Our Engineer designed an interface to convert from an "on during duration of playback" function to a "momentary operate" function to suit the CD player,& had one of the younger blokes build it up.It was a thing of beauty!Unfortunately,the operate function at the site was already a "momentary operate",so his design was redundant.He was a nice bloke,so instead of butchering his device,we just modified the control circuitry,in effect making "an interface to his interface",& all was well!